Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thus far I may just tell you, Mr Mfene, that I am representing about 9 people.  Now I will tell you who are those and please tell the Commission if you've done anything to them.  Makwethu, Masimini, Gqibithole, Mondo, Ogqoyi, Mbi, Gqoyi, Sawuti and Adoni.  Now you've never mentioned any of those names when you were giving your evidence in chief, not so?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nompozolo, just go a bit slower.  Just start again with that list of names please.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I'm sorry.  M-A-K-W-E-T-H-U,  M-A-S-I-M-I-N-I-G-Q-I-B-I-T-H-O-L-E,  M-O-N-D-O,  O-G-Q-O-Y-I,  M-B-I,  G-Q-O-Y-I,  S-A-W-U-T-I,  A-D-O-N-I.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Now you've heard the names of the people I've called?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Have you done anything to them on the 22nd and 23rd of March 1994?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Therefore would I be correct to say you are not applying for amnesty in respect of them?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Will you please tell me their role in this case?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I'm not in a position to answer questions.  I have to ask you questions.  So you're not applying for amnesty in respect of them, not so?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairperson, I think then my mandate ends there because if he's not applying for amnesty in respect of them, then I've got no instruction to proceed beyond that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't have further questions.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because he is not applying for amnesty in respect of them, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm not sure if you are not, if the two of you are not at cross purposes.  The applicant seems to have asked what role these people have played, so it doesn't look as if he understands where they fit into the picture.  Isn't it possible for you to just give him an idea, perhaps that might illicit some response from him?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mfene, on
your application you have mentioned, there is a Sec 9 (a) (iv) "Nature and Particulars - deprived liberty and held hostage, conspired with, incited other persons to cause mutiny."
Is that the nature of your application?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So who did you hold hostage?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: According to the case, or a charge that was laid against me, it is said that those were the officers who laid those charges, the officers from the former Ciskei.  That was according to the charges that were laid.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Anyway, did you commit the offence in question?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The court found me guilty and I was sentenced.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that in court you pleaded guilty?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that the charge sheet was written as follows, that you were charged with kidnapping, 50 counts, and you were also charged with mutiny in contravention of section 3 (a) and 3 (b) of schedule 3 to the Police Act No. 32/1983?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, it was like that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, and did you plead guilty to that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: About kidnapping or mutiny, which one are you referring to?

MR NOMPOZOLO: To kidnapping.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you plead guilty to mutiny?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But when I listened to your evidence, there was nothing on your evidence which suggested that you've committed any mutiny.  Do you agree with me?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: After it was explained that my offence or what I did was mutiny, a charge was laid and it was explained that that act was mutiny and I pleaded guilty and I was sentenced.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you pleaded guilty did you consider yourself as a person who had committed mutiny?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, because of the way it was explained to me, I saw it as an offence that I did.  What was explained to me was this, as Mr Jurgens had told me that they say that the police who were not at the police station were going to be charged for mutiny if there's no clarification.  To him it means that was never clarified, then we were charged.  It is when you disobey the instruction, but it was explained in different ways and they said it's not the police who can do that, but it's only the army.  That is how they explained it, but though it was explained that way they have found me guilty and I was sentenced.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Anyway, I've got instruction from the people I'm representing that some of the police, including yourself, of the former Ciskei on the 22nd were carrying firearms and those firearms were pointed at the officers who were forced to move out of either their offices or their homes, forcefully, to the police college.  What are you saying to that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I cannot dispute that though I was not present in that group of people.  There was a large number of policemen there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: My further instructions are that the officers were held hostage at Bisho police college from the 22nd until the 23rd of March 1994.  They were held hostage at gun-point.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I cannot dispute that too, we were all there at the college.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And I am further instructed that you, together with other policemen, you demanded the keys of the armoury and you, together with other policemen, you took out firearms from the armoury.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I cannot dispute that too though I was not present  in that group of people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And I am instructed that whilst the officers were seated separately from other policemen, you were busy inciting them and amongst other things, you were saying they were corrupt, they have misappropriated funds and that was the reason why they were brought there.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is one of the things that we were talking about and we discussed that and we clarified that issue.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Still under the belief that the policemen, the officers in question, were corrupt and misappropriated funds, they were arrested and charged in the court of law and they were found not guilty.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I dispute that.  As that was happening those police were under investigation, the charges were already laid.  No policeman was ever arrested after that and no police was ever taken to court, they had their previous cases.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now do you dispute that Sawuti, Adoni, Gqibithole, Makwethu, Nqoya and another policeman were charged for fraud subsequent to them being taken hostage by yourselves?  Do you dispute that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I dispute that.  I am saying they had cases pending against them.  We wanted to get results because their cases couldn't go further and no one knew what was happening and it was just quiet.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I've got here a copy of their charge sheets and as a policeman I challenge you to tell me this, if the CR Number of the case is 11/3/94, does indeed that point that the case or the docket was opened in March 1994?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I want you to understand that if they say it's the 22nd of the month, at this police station such as Bisho, the CR of that particular police station is up to 35 or 40, not at 11.  That proves that this case was opened just before the incident that took place at the college.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you are obviously speculating about that, but the fact that it is March, it is 3/94, it shows that the case was reported in March 1994, am I correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: You might be telling the truth.  There could be a case on the 2nd of March and 5th of March, but on the 22nd of March towards the end of the month, the CR is folded or completed, it cannot be saying 11 at Bisho at that particular moment.