Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR BERGER: So just as you had been intimidated in that way by the residents of Boipatong, so you were going to intimidate them in exactly the same way, by killing them, by attacking them, by destroying them.  It's exactly what you've said now, isn't that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, what is your standard of education?

MR MAZIBUKO: Standard eight.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that - let me just put you in the picture, you corrected your application at page 109, paragraph 11(b), you specifically deleted the reference to the meeting of the 10th of June 1992, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And that's because you went through this document, through all the documents that are part of your application, you saw this phrase and you said no, that's not correct, it must be corrected.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, before he answers that question, Mr Berger, there is something that concerns about these applications.  If you notice the applications, most of them, they have this annexure which is virtually the same for all applicants.

MR BERGER: It's identical, yes.

ADV SIGODI: Identical.

MR BERGER: Except for Mr Victor Mthembu.

ADV SIGODI: Except for Mr Victor Mthembu because he had a different legal representative and for Mr Nkwandalendi Buthelezi who was saying that he was not even there.  Now it's a bit of a concern to me because the purpose of this is an inquiry, is it really fair to cross-examine on something which we can all say that it was merely put in as an annexure, which is virtually the same because the working is not specific to each applicant?

MR BERGER: Advocate Sigodi, this particular applicant was led by my learned friend and specifically in relation to pages 110 to 111.  He was asked whether he confirms the contents of those pages and he replied yes, he does confirm the contents of those pages.  Once he does that I submit that those pages become his own.  He has said: "I confirm those contents, I associate myself with those contents."
	And then if one is to attribute any political motive to him, surely I submit, either one has regard to this document to say well, that is what he says his political motive is, or else one says he hasn't said what his political motive is.  Then the answers to questions 10 and, or 9 and 10 of the prescribed form, those questions have not been answered, if one has no regard to pages 110 and 111.
	Is it correct, Mr Mazibuko, that the contents of pages 110 to 111 were explained to you before you gave evidence yesterday?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  Page 110 and page 111, somebody wrote the contents in these pages and I was asked whether I agree with what is written there.

MR BERGER: And what was your answer?

MR MAZIBUKO: I said I agree with the contents thereof.

MR BERGER: Now at page 108, question 11(b), you corrected that by taking out a reference to the 10th of June 1992, is it coincidence that you did this after Mr Xambelani Buthelezi was cross-examined this very paragraph and cross-examined on the very point of the meeting of the 10th of June 1992?   What I'm suggesting to you, and you can comment, is that you were present, you heard that cross-examination and you decided you didn't want to answer any questions about any meetings prior to the 17th of June so you'd better amend that answer, isn't that what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not so.

MR BERGER: When you signed your amnesty application on the 20th of January 1998, were you happy with the contents of that application?  I'm talking about ages 107, 108 and 109.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I was happy with it.

MR BERGER: And when did you become unhappy with the answer to question 11(b)?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I started attending these hearings.  Victor Mthembu had this book. I used to take his book and it had all our statements in it, so I was able to read it through and that is when I realised that mistake and then I realised that on that day I was not present and this is wrong.

MR BERGER: So you never attended any meeting prior to the 17th, you had no idea what was being done to address the concerns of the residents of KwaMadala in relation to the actions of the residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will explain it this way.  When I arrived at KwaMadala hostel the meetings that I used to attend were youth brigade meetings.  I was not attending meetings that were held at the stadium, I was only attending youth brigade meetings.

MR BERGER: My question is, you had no idea of what plans were being made or what was being done to address the grievances of the KwaMadala residents in relation to the actions of the Boipatong residents?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Why did you pick up the TV?

MR MAZIBUKO: In my room at KwaMadala hostel I did not have a TV or a radio, so even when you are relaxing we didn't even have books because when we arrived at KwaMadala hostel, I only had the clothes that I was wearing that day.

MR BERGER: So you took the TV so that you could watch television on it in your room at the KwaMadala hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you stole a duvet from Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: So the evidence of Theresa Mofokeng at the criminal trial that you returned from the attack with a bloody duvet which you had washed the following morning, is an outright lie?

MR MAZIBUKO: It is true she saw this bloody duvet in the room but she did not recognise the person who brought that duvet.  It is not me who brought this duvet, it was somebody who was staying with us in the same room, it was not me.

MR BERGER: Who brought the duvet?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was Oupa Smith.

MR BERGER: Where is he?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was kidnapped in Vereeniging and he was burnt.

MR BERGER: He's dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry I forgot to put to you - you remember I said to you let's get to the facts, and what I was going to say to you was the fact of IFP members or supporters being killed in Boipatong is that there was a killing in January of 1992, I'm only dealing now with 1992, that was Bonangi Mbatha and the next time someone was killed, a supporter of the IFP, was on the 13th of June 1992.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I want to object to that question.  I don't know if my learned friend will lead that evidence but what's been handed to us is a list of events, the violence in the Vaal Triangle from a certain period to another period and if I look through that document there, there are many more such incidents where IFP supporters were killed.

MR BERGER: I've also analysed that document and that is why I've put this fact.  And if my learned friend has a look at the document, I'm talking about killed in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue with your question.

MR BERGER: I've made the point that there was other violence in Sebokeng, in ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question.
	Did you hear the question, Mr Mazibuko?

MR BERGER: I'll repeat, Chairperson.
	The question is, can you speak about any member of the IFP or supporter of the IFP who was killed in Boipatong or by residents of Boipatong between the death Bongani Mbatha and the 13th of June 1992?

MR MAZIBUKO: The killing that I remember that was on the 13th of June but I don't know the name of that person who was killed, but it was a man in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: I'm asking you, before that date and from January of 1992 after Bongani Mbatha was killed, I'm talking about the months of February, March, April, May and half of June, can you name a single IFP member of supporter who was killed by residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I can do so.

MR BERGER: Who?

MR MAZIBUKO: I said before I remember that old man, I don't know his name.