Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Mr Loedolff I wonder if you could speak a little more slowly, the Interpreter is struggling to keep up.  Thank you.
BRIG LOEDOLFF
"I would like to point out that all attempts to apprehend the people responsible for damaging vehicles and injuries in the normal way had been unsuccessful and that it was in that context that the decision was taken to use an unmarked vehicle to be able to arrest the culprits.
 I deny, vehemently, the allegations made that the truck had been sent to commit murder.
 I am sorry that people, and especially a young child, had lost their lives in this tragic way, but I ask for understanding for the circumstances under which I gave these instructions".

UNKNOWN: Chairperson may we hand in this statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you.  Is this your only copy?  Perhaps it would help us to speed things up if the other people you are representing have statements, we could make them available for having copies made in advance, Mr van Zyl.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Loedolff I am going to, through my questions, repeat some of the information so that it will be entered directly into the record.  You confirmed that during October 1985 you were a Major in the South African Railway Police, am I correct?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And that during the period preceding and after the Trojan Horse event you were also the commander of the regional special task force of the South African Railway Police?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And also the representative of the South African Railway Police at the Joint Operational Centre located in Manenberg?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So would you tell me how people were chosen to be on the regional special task force of the South African Railway Police?

UNKNOWN: The regional task force consisted of a couple of members who came from different police stations.  These members had to apply to serve on the regional task force.  When I took over the command in 1985 the regional task force was already in existence and many of the members had been there for a couple of years or a year or two.  In the process the regional task group often conducted exercises or operations just to keep ourselves alert and some of the members were from the special task force stationed in Johannesburg, and who were eventually transferred to Cape Town to stations here, and they then served in the regional task force.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Brigadier during October 1985 and specifically on the 15th of October you were one of three senior officers who met at the Joint Operational Centre at Manenberg to discuss the unrest situation in the Cape Flats and the surrounding townships, am I correct?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: What specific instructions constituted the basis for the planning and execution of tasks at, and from the Joint Operational Centre?

UNKNOWN: The Joint Operational Centre met every morning.  We were, in any event, always present at Manenberg throughout the day and every morning we had a meeting in which we would review what had happened in the previous 24 hours, we looked at all the incidents.  We evaluated these incidents and then made a decision as to what we should do on that particular day, where the important trouble spots were for that particular day.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So the Joint Operational Centre was a command centre, a joint planning centre for staff and a joint operational centre also, am I correct?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I'm referring to this document Sir.  It's a secret document entitled South African Police, Manual Joint Operational Centres and in brackets it's (JOCS), are you aware of it?

CHAIRPERSON: I am just trying to find out whether you have copies of this document.

UNKNOWN: We have requested in writing documents that would be used at this sitting this morning.  We were supplied with statements and I personally asked whether there would be any other documents to be used this morning and I was told not.  This is a complete surprise and we would like time to read through this document and consider our position.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Zyl.  I must say I had thought that you had seen the documents earlier today at least.   How much time would you require to.....

UNKNOWN: It's a matter of reading through the document and - we've been supplied with a whole bunch of documents and we'll need to work through them and just to see what it's all about.

CHAIRPERSON: Let Dr Ramashala take you quickly through the contents of the package that you've been given.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Well I want to refer to this document specifically.  This is a document that was the basis for your operations.  This is a document which is an instruction manual and I have got to assume that all of the officers are familiar with this document and I am referring on this document to 3.2, Organisation; 3.2.1.; 3.2.2; 3.2.3; and I'm just reviewing the functions of the Joint Operational Centre, that's all I'm doing, confirming what he said at his statement.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson we were briefed to assist this witness this morning and to that end we specifically asked for all the documentation that would be used so that we can work through it with him, and prepare the witness, as is, with respect, our right as I understand the Constitution, and this is now completely a surprise to us.  All we are asking for some time to just go through the documentation, see what this witness can recognise what he knows and what he doesn't and we can come back and we can proceed.
 You must bear in mind that we are talking about events of 12 years ago.  We are talking about a witness that has since retired from the Police.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, with all due respect, Mr Loedolff has identified this in his statement, I am merely confirming what he said in his statement by referring to this document.  He has already referred to these responsibilities in his own statement.  So this is not a new document to him because he supposedly used this document to write his responsibilities in his own statement.  So I am merely referring to it as an affirmation of what he said in his statement.  There is no surprise at all in this.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson may we get a ruling on my request?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Dr Ramashala I think that it would be valuable, even if the documents should be familiar to the witness, that you should have an opportunity to just see what is in the package anyway.  So could we perhaps call a short, I hope need not be more than a five minute adjournment, just to give you a chance to have a look at what is in the package.

UNKNOWN: We will try to be as quick as possible, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

UNKNOWN: (affirms)

CHAIRPERSON: We apologise to the audience for the delay but it is very important, everybody should be au fait with all the documents which we will be discussing during today's proceedings.  Dr Ramashala please proceed.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you Madam Chair.  I think the question that was asked, prior to the adjournment, was that during October 1985 what specific instructions constituted the basis or planning and execution of tasks at the Joint Operational Centre?
 And the follow-up question on that Brigadier Loedolff, who was your immediate commanding officer to whom you reported?
 And from whom you received orders and guidelines for your work at the Joint Operational Centre, the name of your immediate commanding officer?