Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, there were about three to four caspirs, accompanying the members.  He is not exactly sure, but he is definitely sure of the caspirs being present.
	I further put it to you that at the meetings prior to the attack, that in fact according to Mr Nosenga, a policeman named Peens, came to the meeting and basically encouraged this attack and advised that there would be assistance from the police in the carrying out of the attack.

MR MKHIZE: I think that Nosenga is trying to confuse you.  That is all lies.  There was never a white person, nor a policeman, when we went to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting that Mr Nosenga is referring to, is that the meeting, the very last meeting from which they just went on a rampage?

MS TANZER: No, in fact the meeting that he referred to was the meeting before the last meeting in which the rampage was discussed, the attack was actually discussed in detail.
	According to Mr Nosenga, in fact your versions are very similar, except for the fact that he submits that policemen did accompany you to the Boipatong and in fact took part in the attack at Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: I think he just hates the police.  That is all lies, he is just trying to implicate the police.  They were never involved in the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you putting it to this witness that Nosenga says his version, and that of the witness, are the same excepting for the presence of the police?

MS TANZER: That is correct Mr Chairman, they were primarily the same.  They might differ in very insignificant ways, but generally the story is the same.

CHAIRPERSON: From what you have just put to the witness, it seems to me that they differ.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, Mr Nosenga states basically the way the attack took place, the calling to the stadium, the meetings, the proceeding to Boipatong itself, was generally the same until they reached the street, then they were accompanied by caspirs.  Some of the residents in fact, got on the caspirs.
	He in fact, got into one of the caspirs himself.  He can identify the other people plus policemen that were with him in the caspir and basically as they arrived in Boipatong, how they were off-loaded at the street and they went into the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Those two versions can't be the same then.  They differ fundamentally?  Anyway.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Put this to the witness.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that according to Mr Nosenga, that you were accompanied by policemen, headed by one Mr Peens to Boipatong, that you were accompanied with caspirs and that in fact some of the residents ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, would you please bear in mind that we have the Interpreters who still have to interpret?  Just put it bit by bit if you don't mind.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that you were accompanied by caspirs, driven by policemen.

MR MKHIZE: What Nosenga is saying, is all lies.  He is going to be arrested and convicted, because he is lying.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga further says that he entered a caspir, driven by - well, he entered a caspir in which Mr Peens and some other policemen were also in that caspir.

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Mr Nosenga?  Is he the one who got into the caspir?

MS TANZER: That is correct, amongst others.

MR MKHIZE: I will not dispute if he says he went into a caspir, but with regards to other people who were present when the attack was launched, no one went into a caspir, there was no policemen, there was no caspir.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, in fact, he can remember the following people in the caspir, one Katheni, Rubin, Themba Kubeka, one person known as Lucky, Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MS TANZER: Katheni, according to Mr Nosenga it is Katheni.  Katheni, and I said Ruben.  These are people known to him as Ruben, Themba Kubeka, a person named Lucky,  a person named Sipho, a person named Makuka who he said was later killed in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MS TANZER: Makuka.  A person named Tsamo, a person named Dondo who he said was leading his group and somebody named Makeze.  The spelling might not be correct Mr Chairman, but that is what I was able to obtain from Mr Nosenga.
	In fact, according to Mr Nosenga, as they entered the caspir, the caspir was - the policemen there were in civilian clothes and they included a Mr Peens, that he had recognised from the meetings, a person named Shaka.  Shaka he had known because he had recognised him who had arrested him in the past, and a policemen known as Rooikop.

MR MKHIZE: That is all lies.  I am not even going to comment on it, because it is not true.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, when the looting took place from the houses, televisions, videos and other such items were taken and in fact, they were put into the caspirs and they were not carried back to the hostel, but they were actually put into the caspirs, which were taken to the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: I have no knowledge thereof.

MS TANZER: Is it correct that after the attack, Mr Themba Khoza praised the residents of the hostel for the attack and the success of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not true.  Mr Khoza has never referred to this incident and he did not know what was going on.  What he said was that he would like us to cooperate with the police.
	He actually left that message that we should cooperate with the police.  He actually called us directly and gave us that message.
	With regards to him praising us, I have no knowledge thereof.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that several weeks after the attack, you in fact went to Ulundi to celebrate the success of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: After the attack?

MS TANZER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually arrested after the attack.  We were arrested about three days thereafter, or maybe about a week thereafter.
	When would we have gone to Ulundi then?

MS TANZER: How many people were arrested at the time?

MR MKHIZE: About 80 people.  Although I cannot specify the correct number, but we were about 80.

MS TANZER: I put it to you on Mr Nosenga's version that a few weeks after the attack, he accompanied many others to Ulundi, where in fact he was praised at the rally for the attack and for the success of the attack.

MR MKHIZE: He must have gone there alone to receive those praises.  We were already in prison by that time.

MS TANZER: My final question is, the Boipatong attack, do you think that was a random attack or was that planned?  Was that a random action or was it a planned action?

MR MKHIZE: It was both planned and random because people had been complaining for quite some time that they are being attacked and killed and were actually confronting me on what to do, because they were no longer free to move around.
	That is where the planning was involved.  That is, we planned to attack Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Do you take personal responsibility for the innocent lives that were lost as a result of this attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MS TANZER: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no question at this stage.  Perhaps I may have a question after cross-examination by the victims' legal representation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we intend taking a tea adjournment at this stage, and coming back at eleven o'clock.  Will that be in order for you?

MR BERGER: That will be in order, yes, thank you  Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a tea adjournment and come back at eleven o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Do we need all these lights, because I think they are just aggravating, can't we just switch them off, because I think they are just aggravating the situation.  It is unbearably hot here, and these lights are just making the situation worse.