Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: It stems from what I have already said that this incident happened because we had intended to conduct an operation somewhere else.  As you can see from this handwriting, this is Chief Commander in APLA's handwriting, Mpashlele handwriting.
	He is the one who wrote there, that fund-raising mission.  He is the one therefore who was co-ordinating the operations of APLA.  As to what we would use that car for after the mission, I have no knowledge, but he will know because he was the one, the Co-ordinator of the time.
	But what I am telling you is that that car was supposed to have been used to mobilise this actions in Port Edward.

MR LAX: Your evidence previously was very clear, you are getting this car so that you can get transport to go to Port Edward.

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Yes.

MR LAX: When you filled out this form, did you just tell Mr Leklapa to put anything he liked in the form, or did you tell him what you were applying for?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: This Leklapa knows very well that that was supposed to have happened, and ...

MR LAX: No, no, you are not answering my question, it is really quite simple, I know who Leklapa is, I know what his position in APLA was.  But this is your form, not his form.  This is your application for amnesty, not his application for amnesty.
	He was helping you fill this form in, is that correct?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: If there is a mistake in what Leklapa has written here, I still stand by what I am saying that I intended to do this and that.
	If Leklapa has written fund-raising and other things, this is his business, but I stand and maintain strongly what I have said.

MR LAX: You don't know why it says the second murder was part of a fund-raising mission?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: According to me, I bear no knowledge of that but as he was the person heading the organisation of APLA, he would know better, but what I know is what I have laid before you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just intervene on that before I forget and you can carry on asking questions.
	Mr Ngema, how many application forms did you fill in?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Two.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if you turn to page 9, have you got the document, take a look at page 9.  Do you see it, right on the top, if you turn back to page 8, the same question at 9(a)(iv), then on page 9 you are talking about the second incident, I killed the taxi driver who was driving the motor car that we wanted to use on our mission.
	Whose writing is that, or is that just the translation from the Zulu?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: This is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this form that you filled in, I don't seem to have a date on it, or do I?  There is  no date.  Which form was filled in first and why was there a need for two application forms?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: The first application I filled in late in 1995 and the second one, Leklapa came later and he is the one who filled the application form there form.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know why there was a need to do a second one seeing you had already done one in 1995?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: After I have completed and filled the first one, I was sure, I wasn't sure whether it was already submitted or not, because subsequently I received no correspondence as to confirm that the application was received by the Officials.
	Then that led me to tell Leklapa that I had already filled an application and I have heard nothing since to prove that they have already received my application.
	Then Leklapa decided or suggested rather, that we should fill the second application seeing that I am receiving no correspondence with regard to the first application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngema.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  You are adamant that this is not your mistake that there was a fund-raising mission, you weren't going on any fund-raising missions?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: No, I am adamant.

MR LAX: Did you read this form before you signed it?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Do you mean the first amnesty application, which one are you referring to?

MR LAX: The second one.

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Yes, I read it.

MR LAX: Why did you sign it if it says fund-raising mission when you didn't go on a fund-raising mission?  Why didn't you correct it?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: As I have already said, Leklapa was our leader.  I had told myself that he knows better what was the intention of the vehicle after the mission had been accomplished, the bar mission that is, what the vehicle will be used for after that, he knows, that rested entirely in his hands.

MR LAX: That is not the issue.  The issue is that the murder did not take place on another mission, did it?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Please repeat the last part of your comment.

MR LAX: The murder didn't take place on some other mission?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Yes.  Please repeat again.

MR LAX: The murder didn't take place on some other mission that Leklapa may have intended?  Isn't that correct?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Please repeat again, I seem to be lost.

MR LAX: I am not surprised, but anyway.  The issue is really quite simple.  You were telling us here about the incident and the mission you were on when the murder happened, isn't that so?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Yes.

MR LAX: You were not on a fund-raising mission when the murder happened?  You weren't telling us about some future mission that may have been taking place?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: No.  We were not on a fund-raising mission.

MR LAX: So, your answer then doesn't make sense.  Whatever Leklapa may have had in his head, about what may have been intended with the vehicle, is irrelevant to what you would have written, or wanted written in this form?  Do you see the point I am putting to you?
	It is really very simple.

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: I do understand you.  What I was saying really was that the only reason why we wanted the car, was to accomplish a mission.  As to the fund-raising mission, I have no idea.
	Although I must admit to the fact that I have made a big mistake by reading, rereading the application and not paying attention into this fund-raising.  I think it is my mistake there.

MR LAX: Yes, thank you.  Now, the last issue I wanted to deal with was this, you said you couldn't use that car, because it had been damaged, this taxi?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Yes.

MR LAX: How was it damaged?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: After I had shot Kanyile, as I was sitting behind him, the bullets penetrated right through the windscreen and shattered the windscreen of the car.
	After we had taken him outside the car, or out of the car, we therefore drove in that car and it just cut off.  We had to alight from the vehicle and take alternative means.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, it seems from the documents, just for your information Mr Ngema, from the documents here that that taxi had an anti-hijacking device which must have been activated by Mr Kanyile which causes it to cut off after a time, that is why it cut off.
	I also noticed from the documents here that a post mortem examination was committed on Mr Meheza, the informer.  It is apparent from that post mortem examination that his body was extensively burnt.  Do you know how it came to be burnt?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: When we were killing Ndlandhla, we were in the sugar cane plantation and it was raining.  According to burning him, we never burnt him.
	I think he was indeed burnt.  I think it was about three months or two months, his body laying there before it was discovered.  What I heard from the trial was that they had, they were burning the sugar cane plantation.  When that happened, I think he was also effected since he was there, that is how he got burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  The shooting of Mr Kanyile, was there only one shot?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: I shot him once, but when I touched the trigger, I touched it once, but the gun discharged bullets twice.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it automatic?

MDUDUZI CYRIL NGEMA: Yes.