Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Did he have any other special capabilities?

JAN LOURENS: Not that I know of.

MR VALLY: Did Dr Lothar Neethling ask for you to do anything else besides letting Mr Hetima pack aerosol cans with teargas apparently?

JAN LOURENS: No, Dr Neethling in terms of, even issues such as the packing of aerosol cans, did not interface with me.  He interfaced with Hetima.  He didn't ask me for any other ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Would you know what was in the aerosol cans?

JAN LOURENS: Well, the, in the cases that I know of, it was either CS or CR, but the fact, you know, I wasn't party to the packing processes, they occupied a facility in my building, so for the rest, I could only speculate.

MR VALLY: Which period was this?

JAN LOURENS: '86/'87.

MR VALLY: You mentioned Dr Basson also introduced you to a person who started working at your facility.

JAN LOURENS: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us who that was?

JAN LOURENS: The man was an armourer by the name of Phil Morgan, and Phil used to work at a company called EMLC, which was based as Special Forces Headquarters.

MR VALLY: Can you indicate to us what this gentleman did?

JAN LOURENS: Well, this - what we did, or how this process worked, was the following, this is that Mr Morgan manufactured mechanisms that could be utilise to apply chemical substances to individuals, in other words, it was a variety of mechanisms that can be used to apply the chemical, the chemical warfare agent in, whether it's in a powder or a liquid form to individuals.

MR VALLY: Who was doing this primarily?

JAN LOURENS: Phil Morgan.

MR VALLY: Was this with your assistance?

JAN LOURENS: No, it was never with my assistance, but I need to clarify this quite clearly, is what would happen here, is just that this would be a process of a number of people being involved.  The process would be the following, is this that a requirement would be set by, for example the toxicologists that would evaluate the piece of equipment, whether that would be Dr Immelman or Dr Davies, and let me give you an example, they would say, listen we need to inject 5ml of a watery substance into a body, and then there would be certain constraints, it must be quiet, it must be concealable, or whatever the case may be.  That would be defined to me.

MR VALLY: Who would give you this instruction, who would ask you this?

JAN LOURENS: Dr Immelman, Dr Davies or Dr Basson, and ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Dr Wouter Basson?

JAN LOURENS: That's Dr Wouter Basson, yes.  This project, this programme, Dr Willie Basson never knew, or was never party of this part of the project.  I then in turn would go back to Phil and give Phil the basic requirement, and then leave him, and he would work and sketch and draw and come back with a piece of equipment which I would then hand over to the toxicologists, which they would evaluate, and then they may come back with some refinement, and this is the process that sort of ran over a period of time.

MR VALLY: Can we call these applicators?

JAN LOURENS: Yes, applicators is a good word.

MR VALLY: Did Mr Morgan make anything else besides these applicators?

JAN LOURENS: No, the applicators was quite a range of equipment, it wasn't - there wasn't one single piece of equipment, they varied, let me give you an example, it started off with for example a ring, a ring that would be worn by an individual that would have a compartment and a coin that concealed the chemical substance, and as the coin would be swung away the substance can be decanted into a drink, or whatever the case may be.  And then it progressed, it progressed then onto a mechanism such as a knife, a knife-like mechanism that would be ejected from a cigarette box, a substance - the knife for example was shaped roughly in the shape of a spoon, and this spoon-like subject, or object, could contain a chemical substance as well.  Some of the applicators, for example, screwdrivers, now it really is a screwdriver ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Sorry, maybe it would be opportune to show you some of these instruments.  These were obtained by the office of the Attorney-General, with your assistance.

JAN LOURENS: Yes.

MR VALLY: And we'll come to just now as to where they were buried.  If I could take one of these instruments, and you took us through it, here we have what looks like a screwdriver.

JAN LOURENS: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us about it?

JAN LOURENS: Well, the principle in all cases had been exactly the same.  You have in the front end the needle-like section, and at the very tip of it would be a hole.  In the handle would be a cylinder that would be spring-loaded.  The principle always was the following, you would suck the substance into the cylinder via the front end and then you would lock it into a position.  Now it would be spring-loaded.  The operator that uses the piece of equipment would stab the person being attacked, and in the stabbing process, the piston would be released and the chemical substance would be injected into the individual, and those would all to a lessor or greater extent work in the same manner.  Now, the - in terms of those particular units that you have in front of you, there was two varieties.  The one variety was a basic screwdriver, the other variety is a needled unit, so what it would have at the front was rather than a screwdriver, a single probe, it would have a number of needles, but the principle would be exactly the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these exhibits safe for handling?

JAN LOURENS: Absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: I would not touch the front end if I was you, Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: What did you understand that these screwdriver applicators were being used for?

JAN LOURENS: Mr Vally, I was never told what it was used for, but it was quite obvious in terms of, you know, the sort of thing that was devised, I mean it was never told - I was never again brief and said, you know, give me a screwdriver that can inject a poison into whoever, so that was never discussed with me, but from the job that, I mean from the weapon that you have there, it's quite obvious what it was used for.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, you said there were two varieties, ordinary screwdrivers, and then the other variety?

JAN LOURENS: The other was exactly the same type of unit, but instead of it having the screwdriver end, it would have a number of needles, syringe needles at the front end of the, let's call it the piston end.  Now, what I need to say is, well, is this is that these units were packed in different formats, in other words for example, there was an example of a needled unit packed into what looked like a bicycle pump.  So, in essence what you would have in your hand would be a bicycle pump.  You'd have the ability to slide it back and then you would expose the needles.  It was packed into a walking stick, into an umbrella, so there was a number of different ways in which it was packaged.

CHAIRPERSON: Rather like a James Bond movie, wasn't it?

JAN LOURENS: Unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: So, we have a series of screwdrivers both with working with a stabbing mechanism and some working like a syringe with a needle mechanism.

JAN LOURENS: Yes.