Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: Because it would seem, just correct me if I'm wrong, that just from what you've told us, you don't give the impression of being the most disciplined of soldiers.  Why I say that is, you have told us that, as you mentioned when Mr Moloi was questioning you, that you stopped being a Special Constable because of your dissatisfaction with the pay or the broken promise, but the fact is you stopped being one on your own initiative, despite the instruction that you become one.  We know that you were sent to Secunda and you stopped working there, also on your own initiative, despite the instruction that you be there.
	You've also made mention that Mr MZ Khumalo refused to hide you because some time in the past he'd arranged a hiding place for you but despite that you didn't stay at that hiding place and you moved away.  These sort of things don't give the impression of a highly, strictly, disciplined soldier, do you agree with that?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I do not agree.  Loyalty does not mean that I should sacrifice my rights.  I believe that if I am dissatisfied with anything, I should complain.  My being silent would in fact be disloyal because I would be doing something that I know very well I do not like.  Therefore I do not agree with you.
	With regards to MZ Khumalo hiding me, he did not agree, not because I did not have discipline, but I had left the hiding place because each time he came to give us food, he would complain that he is giving us his children's food, the children's share of the food, so I felt I should leave, I could not stay under those conditions.
	With regards to money, there was no way I could not question that.  My family understood me to be working as a policeman and even though I was not forced to support them, I had to support my parents.  So if there was no money, how could I explain to my family why there was no money when I was supposed to be working.  Therefore, it was not that I was not loyal, but it was for these reasons that I left after those promises were not kept.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one last question Mr Khumalo.  During your time here at Mpumalanga, you weren't part of a structured unit, is that correct?  You were basically on your own with Mr Luthule being your superior, you were not part of a unit like we heard existed at eSikhawini, where there were three or four of them working as a unit, is that correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I did work alone, I came to Mpumalanga at Madlanduna's instruction.  Where I stayed at Unit 2, there were other Caprivians that we worked with.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a local unit leader or group leader?  Was there any structure in your working together with these other Caprivians or not?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: There was a structure like in Unit 2.  As I explained about Bongo, Madlanduna elected him as a person through whom he will relay messages and instructions because he stayed in a UDF stronghold.  Although I cannot compare the structure to the one at eSikhawini, there was indeed a structure, nobody operated independently.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, any questions arising from questions that have been put by the panel?

MR STEWART: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Just one quick one Mr Chairman.
	You say that you never ever shot anybody in the back?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR HEWITT: Well on page 363 of your affidavit, Incident number 6, you actually recount an incident where you saw a person who had been shot, that he tried to jump over a perimeter fence and he fell to the ground and you state that you stabbed him once on his back, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: In the second paragraph, paragraph 70 of your affidavit, which is page 21 of your affidavit.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR HEWITT: What is the difference between shooting somebody in the back or stabbing somebody in the back?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: The difference is in shooting and stabbing.  I said I'd never shot somebody in the back, I did not say that I had never stabbed anyone in the back.  When I spoke of shooting somebody in the back, I was referring to people who you sent out to go and kill.  This person had already fallen, I was not going to go up to him, turn him over on his stomach and start stabbing him.

MR HEWITT: I see.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Gladla?

MR GLADLA: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR GLADLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khumalo, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's now five to four.  I think this would probably be a convenient time to take the adjournment.  We've now come to the end of today's proceedings, it being just before 4 o'clock.  We'll adjourn this hearing until tomorrow morning in this hall and we want to start at half past nine tomorrow morning, so we will adjourn until then, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS