Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: No the evidence which I am now going tolead will deal with the general background which is set out inBrigadier Cronje's application and I will start on page 2 andtake it up to the first schedule, in other words page 29, thatoverlaps with some of the other applicants' evidence so it willnot deal with specific events.  My learned friend told me thathe plans in respect of Brigadier Cronje's specific evidence toadduce that right at the end.  I don't quite understand why thatshould be so but we don't
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have a real problem with that procedure.  May I continue?  Thankyou.
 Brigadier Cronje could you start on page 2 of your applicationplease.  I would like you to comment on your involvement in anypolitical party during the period that you were a security policeman.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson I was not a member of any politicalorganisation.  I was a supporter of the National Party until 1994. Since the 1994 elections I am no longer a supporter of the NationalParty.

UNKNOWN: Could you then turn to page 3.  I wouldlike you to give a short explanation of your career so that therecan be a general idea of how your career progressed.

UNKNOWN: I joined the South African Police on 1 January 1956, six monthstraining, afterwards transferred to uniform branch in Durban forone year, Overpoort station and then transferred to Ermelo forabout a year.  Then I underwent a detective course in Pretoriaand then transferred to Springs.  There I was also promoted inSprings.  I was then transferred to Brakpan as divisional chiefof the detectives.  I then passed my officer's course and I wasthen promoted to lieutenant.  I was transferred to the safetybranch in Johannesburg first Gray? then John Vorster Square. Three months order duty in the Caprivi.  Two years later transferredto Umtata as a captain.  I was second in command of the divisionsecurity branch in Transkei.  Two years service in Rhodesia afterthat.  I was then transferred to the John Vorster Square afterthe independence of the Transkei.  I was stationed for three monthsat John Vorster Square.  After that I was transferred to EastRand Springs where I was second in command of the
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security branch as a major then promoted to lieutenant coloneland transferred to Headquarters.  I was commanding officer ofVlakplaas under Brigadier Schoon from 1983 to '85.  I was thentransferred as divisional commander to Northern Transvaal, Pretoriauntil June 1987.  Then I underwent a heart by-pass operation andwas declared unfit.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Cronjethis general background which you have given us and which youset out in your application covers certain aspects which are notrelevant to the acts committed by yourself but they serve as ageneral background which could be important.  I am now going todeal with these incidents in the order in which they appear inthe application.  Page 6, the first aspect I would like you tofocus on and to comment is the issue of your recollection of thisapplication.

UNKNOWN: Unfortunately this is subject to lapse oftime.  I don't have all the particulars regarding each and everyincident, I only have a vague memory.  In certain cases I can'tremember it at all and I would like the question of whether Imade full disclosure to be considered in the light of this, becausemy memory could be defective in certain cases and if certain factsare omitted it's for no other reason that I simply cannot rememberwhat exactly happened.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  If you turn to page 7 I wouldlike you to tell the Committee, we heard General van der Merwe'sevidence yesterday, which is of a more objective nature from theperspective of the Commissioner of Police and of General van derMerwe's perspective regarding the struggle in which the SAP wasinvolved, what I would like you to do, I want to make it veryclear that you are also
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doing this on behalf of the other applicants before the Committee. They were all, to some extent, they all served under you to someextent, I'd like you to sketch to the Committee from your subjectiveperspective how the development of the struggle of the South AfricanGovernment against the liberation organisations developed.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson during the Rhodesian war I performedtwo years service in Rhodesia.  The South African Government decidedthat the South African Police had to be used in support of theRhodesian Defence Force and Police.

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier when was this, the two-year period?

UNKNOWN: This was during - I can't remember the dates.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson I may mention here that duringthe preparation of this application Brigadier Cronje's memorywas a bit vague as far as certain events which took place a longtime ago are concerned, so in some instances the dates have notbeen filled in because we weren't able to determine the exactdate and we couldn't obtain his file.

UNKNOWN: I may also just mention that I lived inRhodesia until the withdrawal of South African troops.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis why I am asking this is thatit may become important to determine who had perhaps given theorders during that period and who the responsible person or personswere.

UNKNOWN: I understand that.  From the early 1980'sonwards there is no problem as far as time periods are concerned. It's actually just the period before that that we have a bitof a problem with.  There are no applications for amnesty as faras that period is concerned except for one incident concerningSwapo.  Brigadier Cronje as far as
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I am aware you were involved in the Rhodesian war towards theend, in other words the late 1970's, the end of the period?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Could you continue.

UNKNOWN: The South African Police became involvedin the 70's in the guerilla war and counter-insurgency operationswhich did not involve normal functions of policing.  The factthat the South African Police was used in such a way made quitea difference in the training techniques.  The police had to beable to also combat guerillas and take part in a military war. This included all elements of combat, guerilla warfare and counter-insurgencyactivities.  It also included training to kill, self-defence andmilitary tactics.  It also included training relating to interrogationof terrorists and planning of military operations.
 The ANC/SACP alliance during the 1970's further started a full-scaleguerilla war against the Republic of South Africa.  The populationwere indoctrinated to believe that there was a full-scale waragainst the Republic of South Africa.  The way in which the guerillawar developed showed that this was a correct view of the situation. The ANC/SACP alliance was supported by the Eastern block countriesand specifically the USSR.

MR CURREN: My apologies for the interruption Mr Chairman. We don't all have the benefit of a copy of the statement whichis being read.  Without the copy I must say I am finding it difficultto follow everything.  If I could just ask the witness to reada little bit more slowly it would really help.  Thank you.
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CHAIRPERSON: I think that for the purpose of the Interpretersas well you should give them a little time so that they can catchup with what you are reading, please.

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you a spare copy of the statementbecause I understand there is photostatting equipment availablehere and if we could have another copy of it we can get it photostattedand then made available to counsel.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman just give me a minute I amtrying to locate ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Nevertheless I think that when you do readkindly read sufficiently slowly to enable the translators to catchup so that people at the back who don't understand Afrikaans mayfollow.