Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And also, for instance, as far as I can relate, I've read this thing and we have tried, together with my colleagues, to try and recall one operation which was postponed, that I know of, was the operation where we were going to attack the SADF which was on sport, just on the grounds.  Okay as we go to the - as we go from King William's Town to Bisho, there is, I think there are two playing grounds here and some sort of a stand which looks like a stadium on your right.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: On your left.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: When you're going to Bisho on your right.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: On your left, the stadium, from King William's on to Bisho, the stadium on your left, I'll just refresh your memory for you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I think it's on your right, if you're going through King William's Town and going to Bisho it's on your right.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Unless you're coming from Bisho then it's on your left.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can't be on your right when you're going to Bisho.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Is it in order to argue about something like that Mr Chairman?

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many stadiums have you got in King William's Town, not only one?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Mr Chairman, there's also another one, the stadium which is outside when you are going to ...[inaudible] Grahamstown Road which is just there.  There is another one which is - I don't know whether it's a school grounds which he's referring to which is just on the middle when you go to Bisho.  When you coming from King William's Town is on your right but when you're coming from Bisho it's on you left.

MR PRIOR: Can we try and stick to this report and this operation because that's really what we're trying to deal with here and the question's really around, if I understand Mr Stanford correctly, you did postpone your operation, there's no question that you didn't postpone this particular operation "Throw Stones" that's correct isn't it?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZYO: Mr Chairman, what he's trying to explain is that he does not remember at postponing this one but there's another operation they were going to execute.  The one his remembering that they postponed because of weather is what he's trying to get at.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me ask him that because I understood that he told us earlier that this is in his handwriting.  Is that not so?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: This is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wrote on his report "we postponed once".  This report was dated the 28th November 1992 and was handed in and signed for by the administrator on the 2nd December 1992.  So let's not have talk about the police doing this or that - this is the report he drew up, isn't it and the report you handed to the administrator and he added a note at the foot of it.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: This report, Chair, I mean just a point of correction, this report I must have handed in to Comrade Tumiso because I just - it seems I was drafting it on his behalf and therefore it was - I mean - common practise that he would look at it, make some corrections and then the final product would encompass his signature.  I don't deny the fact that this is my handwriting, even my father can confirm that, it is my handwriting and - but what I was trying to explain one dimension here that as far as I can recall, I mean, recalling an incident as they happened, that the operation we once postponed here was an operation which we were going to conduct in those playing grounds and then in the end we could not because of weather conditions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how could you have written in this report that you made on the - you wrote it - on the 28th November and you said we postponed once because of weather conditions - the enemy could not avail himself and it was then corrected - "could avail himself" it was corrected to read "could not avail himself."  So you wrote this on the 28th November relating to this operation, didn't you?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, because it's written per operation record, what we did arrange for this operation but this particular information does not relate to this Golf Club incident, not at all.  That is why I'm saying this is not the final product and I don't think we should be bogged down on this one.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not bogged down, I just know what you wrote on the day in question and I have great difficulty in understanding how you can say it didn't relate to the report that you were writing.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I'm explaining myself - that is why I'm saying this one is not the final report and I thought honestly that perhaps you have another report which, I mean which is the final product.  You just chose not to put in the package.

MR PRIOR: Well you see, this is the final product for this reason and this reason alone, that if you look on the third page of the report, there's a note in the administrator's own handwriting that says "this report received on the 2nd day of December 1992" and he goes on to say "what is admitted is that four whites are reported killed and seventeen are injured" by the administrator, 2 December 1992.  You see, that he - it's a different handwriting.  So clearly this report went to the administrator and he added certain information, obviously once those facts became known.  So this is the report that the administrator had in his possession.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, let me make one point clear.  Then if there is these corrections or points made or omissions then it means that Comrade Lester would have, I mean, would draw another report that would be final product and honestly I don't remember postponing the Golf Club.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You see this is a very important ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: and I'm sorry I cannot go beyond that.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: What don't you go with?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I can't go beyond that.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You can't go beyond that?  So in other words do you say that you never wrote this report now?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Stanford please, he's saying he can't remember the fact that they postponed that and therefore he doubts whether that happened.   Am I putting it fairly?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, sir.

MR PRIOR: In your own mind there is a doubt that this was actually was postponed and the only operation you can remember postponing is a different operation that related to an attack on the SADF?  That's why we got it bogged down on that one and where the stadium was and all that stuff.  So basically he's saying and it's not really going to help to canvass it any further, he doesn't remember postponing it, even though it's written here.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: The only point that I want to make is it's extremely important from all our point of view that a false statement like that could occur in a report of this kind which purports to be a report to his senior as to events which did happen and surely it's very unlikely that a report written on the same day as the event occurred would could possibly be incorrect.  The probabilities are that this report is correct and he is wrong and that in fact there was an earlier date fixed for this attack and it was in fact postponed.  May I put that to him?

MR PRIOR: With pleasure you can put that to him.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, one other dimension Mr Stanford, this is all possible that I could have written the report on this very same day.  Yes, I might have been relating the events of the incident after, I mean, it had already happened..[intervention]

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: So must we accept...[intervention]