Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-11

MR BOOYENS: Could you slowly describe the picture for us?  What happened next?  At this point you, yourself, and Beneke were involved.  What would Snyman have done?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I could not see what Snyman did, but he did not take part.  My attention was entirely focused on this scuffle and wrestling that was taking place.

MR BOOYENS: Could you just tell me whether Beneke was present in the office before this incident?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour, I did not see him.

MR BOOYENS: Could you describe for us what occurred next?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: At that stage I noticed that Sergeant Niewoudt had joined us and that he was assisting in attempting to restrain the man.  I also saw that he had something in his hand with which to hit.  Subsequently, I saw that this was a piece of hosepipe that had been cut off and I could see him hitting the accused and give him a couple of lashes with this in order to restrain him.  I believe that one of the hosepipe lashes, this might have taken the attention of the deceased away from myself and Beneke, this allowed us to grab him by the body and arms, but it was still a wrestling match which, at that point, and at a, at the beginning of this wrestling, of this scuffle, I know we bumped against the table which was standing in the office.
	From there we moved more towards the middle of the office floor and then when Mr Niewoudt joined in with the piece of hosepipe and started hitting him with the hosepipe, we were some distance from the wall.

MR BOOYENS: If you are saying "some distance"?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I think we were in the middle of the floor of the office.

MR BOOYENS: It is a very small office?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, it is a small office.

MR BOOYENS: Would this be a meter, two meters?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Possible a meter and a half, two meters away from the wall.

MR BOOYENS: And then?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Our momentum then caused us to move in the direction of the wall.

MR BOOYENS: Who would "we" be?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: It would be myself, the deceased, Beneke and Niewoudt.
	We then fell over one anothers feet and in this process we hit the wall with Mr Biko, the deceased, who then fell against the wall and we fell on top of him and against him.

MR BOOYENS: Referring to paragraph six, on page six of your statement, the second paragraph from the bottom.  Could you read the paragraph starting,
"Tydens hierdie gestooiry en bakleiry ..."
You make the statement in that paragraph,
"... all three of us then took a hold of Biko and moved with him in the direction of the corner of the office and ran into the wall with him ..."
What are you trying to say with this statement?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: What I mean with the statement, your Honour, is that the momentum of this wrestling and the fact that we lost our balance brought about that we ran into the wall.  It is not that we took the man, took a hold of him, said to each other, let us run into the wall with him.  That is not what I intend with this statement.

MR BOOYENS: When you hit the wall, what do you know of that?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, his head definitely, in my opinion, bumped against the wall.

MR BOOYENS: On what grounds would you make this claim?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I saw this happen, also his body?  With the fall onto the ground, I feel that he or might well have also bumped his head against the ground.

MR BOOYENS: There were four of you, who all fell?  We know the deceased fell.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: If I recall correctly, your Honour, all four of us fell down and were lying on the ground.

MR BOOYENS: Were you on top of each other or apart from each other?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I cannot recall exactly.  Some of us were on top of each other, some of us were apart.  I cannot recall where we all were.  I, myself, had fallen on the ground.

MR BOOYENS: After you had fallen what did you see?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I noticed that the deceased was in a state of unconsciousness.  He was disorientated, his eyes look confused.

MR BOOYENS: Did he stand up or what did he do?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour, he was lying on his side with his back and shoulders against the wall.

MR BOOYENS: Did the other three of you, the police officers, did you stand up?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: What did you do next?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: We then waited to see how seriously or how serious his state was.  After a while it appeared to me as if he was regaining his consciousness or regaining consciousness, that he achieved greater orientation, that he knew where he was again.

MR BOOYENS: And then what happened?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: After a short while I was of the opinion that he should be fully conscious again.  I then told Sergeant Niewoudt that he should cuff him again.

MR BOOYENS: You say a little while, a short while after his fall and after you got up, could you just continue.  You have instructed him to put the hand-cuffs again.  How did he do this?  What did he, exactly, do?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He took the hand-cuffs and he cuffed him in the front.

MR BOOYENS: So he cuffed him in front of his body?  Was the deceased still lying on the ground at that time?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Was he lying or was he sitting?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He also put the ankle chains on again.  Then after, possible, five minutes, maybe a little longer, I thought or believed that he had regained full consciousness.  I told Sergeant Niewoudt to chain him to the security gate in that office in a standing position.

MR BOOYENS: I just want to be clear about this, of the lapse of time then.  You fell and then at a certain stage while he was still lying on the ground, Niewoudt cuffed his hands.  From when he fell on the ground until he was cuffed while he was lying on the ground, what would the lapse of time have been?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: From when he fell on the ground until we put on the foot chains or ankle chains, I believe that could have been a minute or less.

MR BOOYENS: So, it was shortly thereafter?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And then you said that it could have been five minutes or longer.  Would that have been at that point when you gave instruction that he should be chained to the metal gate, the security gate?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, it could be five or ten minutes, but I did not keep or take note of the time.

MR BOOYENS: Your colleague, Snyman, has already given testimony that the manner in which he was chained was to spread his arms?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, at about the height indicated, he was chained to the security gate and also by his feet by means of a chain through the security gate.

MR BOOYENS: What was the length of the chain, roughly?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, it would be the normal length of foot or chains.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but I am no expert on this.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I have not seen these in a long time, but if I can recall correctly, they would have been of a considerable length.  If a person walks with this, the person would normally hold the chain at their, at the middle of their body, at the middle.  So, it was a long chain.

MR BOOYENS: The deceased was chained or is, now in your narrative, chained to the gate.  What happened next?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: We then attempted to speak to him again, but there was no reaction and no co-operation on his part.

MR BOOYENS: Just let us get this clearly.  Did he speak back to you or when you say there was no reaction, what do you mean?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, he did not speak to us.  No, he simply did not speak to us.  He just stared in front of him.  To me it appeared as if he had completely switched off and was no longer at all willing to co-operate.

MR BOOYENS: Snyman said that he then went to Goosen?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.