Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

MS THABETE: What I was trying to find out is that you wrote a statement, assisted by one Mr Mbatha from the TRC, which was on the 18th of August 1998, which is this year, so what I was trying to find out is why didn't you include it in your statement or didn't you know at that time that the person was from the Sithole family?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I had not found out by that time.

MS THABETE: You spoke about an AK rifle, where did you obtain that rifle from?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: There is some person from Johannesburg, who would sometimes arrive to deliver guns to those people who had actually bought them.  When he arrived, I had this pistol from the coloured man.
	We then discussed that with regards to the situation in the area, I should actually exchange with him, that he gives me the AK and I give him the pistol.  I owed him, there was a balance of R200-00 which I had to pay for the AK, but unfortunately I did not have money at that time, so I didn't pay it.

MS THABETE: The last question, you say you sold your firearm.  Why did you sell it, if I may ask?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I had no further need for it because the violence had subsided.

MS THABETE: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

MS THABETE: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, any re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Dlamini, did you tell Pat that you are applying for amnesty for the incident at Mazabkweni and Batong?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No.  I did not tell him because I would have not been able to tell him, because he died.
	The person who I could have told, was Xude.  Pat is already deceased, so I could not have told him.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you tell Xude?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I haven't been able to see him.  I don't know whether he is still residing in the area that he was before because I knew Xude through Pat.

MR SIBANYONI: You said as you were leaving the taxi rank at Ixopo, people started chasing you.  Did they know that you are a member of the ANC?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: They knew me very well.

MR SIBANYONI: Why were they chasing you?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It was obvious that they wanted to kill me.  That was normally what they did to attack people, injure them, kill them.  I also knew that what was going to happen to me as they are chasing me.
	People who were armed, would not just chase me for nothing.  Although I did not see guns, I knew that they would have them.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were shooting at these person at Ixopo, were you defending yourself or were you furthering any political aim?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I was defending myself.  If I had wanted to just kill the IFP, I would have actually shot at all of them, because I actually had 36 bullets in the magazine.
	I specifically shot at him, because he was going to stab me.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you report to your SDU about that incident, did you tell them what happened?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: We discussed it.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson.  When did you become Commander of the SDU in your particular part of (indistinct)?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It was in 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean 1993 or 1983?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Sorry, sorry, excuse me, it was 1993, I made a mistake.

MR LAX: How many people were part of your Unit?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: There were other people who would just assist.

MR LAX: I am not interested in people from other areas.  I am aware that there were people from other areas, I am saying in your Unit.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I am trying to explain, there was Gacha, Bongeni, myself and Lindelwa, those are the people that I remember quite well.  The four of us.
	There would be others who would just assist.

MR LAX: With regard to the second incident you described, that was actually the first one in chronological sequence, the Batong incident, you basically wanted to launch an attack on Batong in, if I could put it bluntly, in retaliation for their attacks on you?  Is that right?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is not what I wanted.  We wanted to actually attack them when they came into the area in broad daylight, but when the people were attacking them, or when they went to attack them, I also supported them because they were responsible for attacks on us.
	Even though I did not participate in the attack, because I had no firearm, I just supported them.

MR LAX: But you wanted to get people to go and attack that area.  That was your evidence in the beginning.  You said you discussed with Mnini Dlamini from Top which was another SDU in your area, you wanted them to come and assist you with this attack.  That is how you described it, you didn't describe it as waiting for them to come across the river to attack you and then defend you.
	You described it as an attack on that area.  The fact that you then spoke to Mbakazi and you pointed out the area that should, where the boundaries were so that he would know the correct place to go and attack, and you knew he was going to drive there with his vehicle and attack, how can you say you were waiting for them to come and attack you and then you would defend yourselves?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, my recollection of the evidence was slightly different to that that the Committee member, Mr Lax has put to the witness.  My understanding of the evidence was that it was Pat who wanted to initiate the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think it was Pat who, my recollection is that it was Pat who suggested that and who asked where these people who are attacking, come from and it was pointed out and then it was the other Dlamini, Mnini, was approached and he said he is not in favour of it because he would rather fight on their territory and defend, rather than attack, and that is why Dlamini didn't want to go and that is why he couldn't gather people from his area to support the attack because they preferred to defend.  That is what my understanding was.

MR WILLS: Yes, that was my understanding and also, a slight difference from what was put by Mr Lax, but it might have an importance when it is put to the witness, my understanding was that the witness communicated Pat's request to Mnini, as opposed to planning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he communicated it, then Mnini said no, he preferred to fight in his own territory, but the witness said that he wasn't opposed to Pat's request, in fact he supported it, he wasn't against the attack.

MR LAX: It doesn't substantially change the fact that you were in favour of the attack.  Why were you in favour of the attack?  Why didn't you wait for them to attack you?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Because there were people who were willing and ready to help us out, we would have not prevented them if they were willing and able to do so.

MR LAX: But you see, you didn't know who the actual attackers were, you were just sending them into the area to go and attack that area.
	They could have been attacking innocent people for all you knew?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: With regards to the actual perpetrators, are you referring to that?