Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is why I asked because there was no need to recruit a person at that time, what was important was to campaign to the vote.  We were trying to organise people to vote for the PAC, not to recruit for the armed struggle.  That is why I asked them.

MS COLLETT: You see, Mpahlele's evidence at the High Court was also that whilst the PAC was campaigning for the elections it was quite correct despite the fact that it was denied, that there were attacks and things taking place in the name of APLA.  What do you say to that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Some other camps and other structures there was a misunderstanding at the time.  I think they were still angry or they got a message after some time, but everybody had received the message.

MS COLLETT: When you called these people, on your version, to speak to them about the attacks that had taken place did you find out from them whether there had been a misunderstanding on their part about the fact that attacks should have been ceased?

XHOLILE TJABANE: What I said to them is they have received a message that the armed struggle had been suspended.  I asked them why they did this.

MS COLLETT: And?

XHOLILE TJABANE: And I told them to go back to their homes.

MS COLLETT: Did they tell you that they did not know that the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, they didn't.

MS COLLETT: Did you specifically ask them whether they knew?

XHOLILE TJABANE: What I said, I told them that they knew that the armed struggle was suspended, why did they continue.

MS COLLETT: What did they say?

XHOLILE TJABANE: They said that they did that because they were angry.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that you have not applied for amnesty for any of the offences for which these accused, these applicants have applied for amnesty?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I applied for amnesty for anything that involved APLA members so that I can identify it if I knew about it.

MS COLLETT: My question is, did you apply for amnesty with regard to any of these that the applicants have applied for amnesty for?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I didn't apply for amnesty for this particular attack,  I made a general amnesty application.

MS COLLETT: You see I want to put it to you that you gave the instructions for these attacks to take place as the applicants have said.

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is not correct.

MS COLLETT: And I want to put it to you that the reason why you are distancing yourself from this is because you have not applied for amnesty for these offences and that you could well face prosecution in these matters.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I don't think that is so.

MS COLLETT: And I want to put it to you that according to Letklapa Mpahlele, this unit to which these two applicants belonged did not know about the suspension of the armed struggle at the time that these attacks took place.

XHOLILE TJABANE: Dumisane knew about that.

MS COLLETT: And that this was the reason that these attacks took place after the armed struggle had been suspended.  What do you say?

XHOLILE TJABANE: What I'm saying is, Dumisane knew about that.

MS COLLETT: And I want to put it to you that the attacks that took place according to Director Mpahlele were in line with APLA policy and would have been attacks that APLA soldiers would have been expected to carry out.

XHOLILE TJABANE: But they were given the instruction to stop attacking.

MS COLLETT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Tjabane, the fact that the camp had been - sorry, let me rephrase or ask you a different question first.  The camp that you referred to, was that the one in Butterworth?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And were you in charge of that camp?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And how many - if you can give us an estimation at that time, that was January/February/March of '94, how many cadres were, or how many inmates were at that camp at that time? - a rough estimate if you can.

XHOLILE TJABANE: 30 to 35.

ADV PRIOR: And Mr Ncamazana was know to you, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And are you satisfied that he was a genuine member of APLA?  In other words he had been trained, he had received the necessary political training to be an APLA combatant.

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Mbambo I understand is on a different footing, on his own version it seems, well it's unclear why he went along specifically on these operations, but did you know him before learning about the Bahai Faith Church attack?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I didn't know him.

ADV PRIOR: He indicated in his evidence - and I refer to page 363 of the transcript, Mr Chairman, he said that you had called him to the base in Butterworth in 1994.

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is not correct, I didn't know him.

ADV PRIOR: And on the previous page at 362 he said he joined APLA in 1991 and he was recruited in Cape Town, were you aware of that or did you have any knowledge of that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I don't know.

ADV PRIOR: Do  you know whether he left school in 1993?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I don't know.

ADV PRIOR: Now I think the sequence in this amnesty application is the following, that on the 24th of March 1994 the Bahai Church was attack, they then returned to Butterworth, on their version they reported to you, handed you the vehicle, they then thereafter returned to the East London area to carry out attacks at Nahoon Dam, Highgate Hotel and the Da Gama Textile Factory, and that was from the 25th to the 28th of March 1994.  Now you've already told this Committee that that is not correct, you did not give them any instructions to carry out further attacks, is that so?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: It would seem that you were aware that the elections were scheduled for a few weeks, scheduled for April, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Were you also preparing for the elections?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: In what way, can you maybe just briefly describe to the Committee what you were doing in Butterworth at that time?

XHOLILE TJABANE: We were putting on posters all over Butterworth, urging people to vote for the PAC.

ADV PRIOR: If I make this comment are you able to give us your view;  was it important, as you understood it from the hierarchy with the PAC, that the PAC should participate in the election in April '94?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, it was important.

ADV PRIOR: And also to get as many votes or get as much support for that election as possible?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: As a military commander, a man who was involved in many operations I understand, could you see any political benefit to be gained by APLA attacking such targets shortly before the elections, that is a few weeks before the elections?

XHOLILE TJABANE: There was a disadvantage in that because we were told that the armed struggle must be disbanded even though others continued at that time.  We tried to disband it but we failed.

ADV PRIOR: It was interesting to note your comment that despite the instruction or the information that was passed down by you to your regional commanders and to the camp, that there was - correct me if I'm mistaken, there was a mixed reaction to that within the ranks of the cadres.  It would seem to my mind that some accepted that but others also did not accept that news, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, there was something like that, others didn't accept it because it was the way they thought that they would be liberated.  So we then followed the instructions of the President.