Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Well, he gave us the directions to the place.

ADV PRIOR: And if you had charged him for those weapons, he would in all likelihood have received a fairly substantial term of imprisonment?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If his fingerprints were to be found on those exhibits.

ADV PRIOR: Or other evidence, there could have been other evidence, that he pointed out the spot, that he knew where it was?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: The fingerprints would have just been some additional evidence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: But if he had been convicted for those articles, he would have received a substantial term of imprisonment?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: At least what, five, six years?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Minimum of five years.

ADV PRIOR: Minimum?  And you could have effectively taken him out of circulation on that basis?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did you contemplate that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Had the decision already been made at a different time that he was to be eliminated?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't interested, I think you have told us already, in getting him before a Court and convicting him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: On the fifth page at the bottom, one Siphiso Kunene, was he known to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Do you have any comment to make on his information that he will give?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, we all know that this is not a permissible way of asking questions of a witness.  If my learned friend wants to ask a question, let him put the question.
	We know that in procedure, one doesn't just place a document before a witness and say is there something that you disagree with and then take your cross-examination from there.
	With respect, it doesn't lead anywhere Mr Chairman, and it is unfair to the witness because he doesn't know what the question is.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I take note of that.  I was trying to save some time, but I see that it is not going to assist.  Siphiso Kunene states and that will be his evidence that his unit, which was the Chesterville unit, was reporting to Mapumulo in Swaziland and that they had no link to Nxiweni.  Could you confirm that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is possible.

ADV PRIOR: And that it was his unit that were responsible for the two CNA bombs that went off and not Nxiweni's unit.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Once again, Chairperson, as I said units in Durban fell under the command of Nxiweni, whether or not they had direct command contact with him, is unknown to me.
	But I would just like to indicate in paragraph 3 of Ngema's evidence on the same page, the question that you asked me about whether there was a liaison, I told you that Pila once instructed them to make contact with Nxiweni to obtain weapons in an emergency.  He sent one of the unit members who did not know Nxiweni to the meeting.  He does not know who this person met with.
	That simply confirms what I said that there was contact between them.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, there was contact, but we will leave it at that.  The suggestion that was put to you, is that after his acquittal Nxiweni played no active role in the combatant situation, the combat situation in Natal because of the very fact that he was known to you, that he had been acquitted, that he was obviously being observed or watched or whatever?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: For a period of time after that, he became active again.

ADV PRIOR: I think you have agreed, during the interrogation of him, that you slapped him on a number of occasions?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did anybody else interrogate him from your own knowledge, any of the other applicants?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Just mention them to us?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The only people present was Du Preez and Van der Westhuizen.

ADV PRIOR: Did Mr Du Preez assault him in your presence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairman.  Du Preez slapped him in my presence.

ADV PRIOR: With a fist?  Also with a fist?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: And he hit him as well.

ADV PRIOR: And Van der Westhuizen as well?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: It never escalated to anything more than a slapping or a punching, there was no instruments used?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, no instruments were used.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, you were also not present at Nxiweni's execution?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  If Colonel Taylor had not arrived that afternoon, he and Wasserman, Du Preez and I would have eliminated Nxiweni.

ADV PRIOR: Is there any reason why Taylor who was the Head of the unit, hadn't been informed about Nxiweni?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: He was not in Durban at the time of the decision.

ADV PRIOR: He just slotted in, he came suddenly at the farm or the safe house and he just took over?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, if my memory serves me correctly, he had arrived back from Swaziland that afternoon.

ADV PRIOR: The kwaMashu 3, I think you explained in quite a lot of detail how you got them to the meeting place and what happened.  In this case there was no need to interrogate them, is that right, because the decision to execute them, had been made before their detention or their arrest?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: The positioning of the bodies after they were shot, was that to destroy any evidence that they had been shot, in other words, they were placed with their heads onto the explosives, so that there would be no come back at any later stage?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, I have no further questions.  Sorry, I have been asked to put this question, did your branch or did your unit clear the DLB in the kwaMashu area under the control of the kwaMashu unit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There were only three limpet mines in their presence.  The DLB's clearing was done by the Investigative Officer and if I remember correctly, a carrier bag and other forms of proof were found at a house which were tested positively for explosives.
	There were such exhibits.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell us which house it was that this bag was found?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember, but I think that that information was given to the Investigative Team.  There was a dossier with that information contained in it.

ADV PRIOR: Can you just tell us who maybe the Investigating Officer is so that we can follow this up?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was Warrant Officer Petser.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR NOLTE: Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE

MR VISSER: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

ADV SIGODI: There is just one aspect that I want to clarify with you.  You mentioned that the reason why you eliminated these people was because there was pressure on you to solve the problem, that is the problem of terrorism in the region.
	I want to find out who exerted this pressure on you?