Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.  We are commencing with the application of David Thejane and the Panel that would hear the same, it's myself, Motata chairing and my brother Judge Chris de Jager on my right.  We are both from the Transvaal Provincial Division in Gauteng.  On my left is our brother Adv Sandi from East London in the Eastern Cape.  I would request the legal representatives to place themselves on record.  I'll start with you Mr Johnson.

MR JOHNSON: As it pleases the Committee.  I'm Henry Johnson from Henry Johnson Attorneys in Zastron Street here in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Johnson.  For the victim?

MR SAMUEL: As it pleases the Honourable Committee.  My name is S H Samuel, Hamilton Samuel, I'm from the firm N W Palat and Partners in Bloemfontein and I appear on behalf of the victims, Abel Coane, Norman Choane as well as well as Moiketsi Jikila.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel.  Mr Johnson, are you ready to start with the applicant and my I ask you ...

MR JOHNSON: I am ready Mr Chairperson.  I will lead the witness in English, or the applicant in English as it seems as if it will be easier for everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll ask my colleague here to swear the applicant in.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Is he Afrikaans or English speaking?

MR JOHNSON: The applicant can indeed understand English, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Will he give evidence in English?

MR JOHNSON: He's going to give his evidence in Sotho.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: (sworn states)

MR JOHNSON: Mr Thejane, you are indeed the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: I'm going to lead the evidence of the applicant, Mr Chairperson, in connection - by the guidelines set in page 4 of the bundle, marked Annexure B, it is not a proper affidavit, but it is a statement made by the applicant.  Mr Thejane, you were a member of AZANDLA, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Is it also correct that you left South Africa during 1985?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, that is in 1986.

MR JOHNSON: And at that stage when you left South Africa, where did you go?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I went to Botswana.

MR JOHNSON: What were you supposed to do there?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was seeking political asylum and going for training.

MR JOHNSON: What training did you go for?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Military training, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: How long were you then in Botswana undergoing military training?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: From 1986 until 1989.

MR JOHNSON: Where did you undergo this military training?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I started in Botswana, refugee Camp.

MR JOHNSON: Could you again say what is the name of the camp where you underwent this training?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Dukwe Refugee Camp.

MR JOHNSON: At what stage did you then return to South Africa?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I returned in 1989.

MR JOHNSON: In what manner and where did you then enter the Republic of South Africa?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was arrested at Zeerust border gate.

MR JOHNSON: Why were you arrested there?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Because I entered illegally, I entered Botswana illegally.

MR JOHNSON: Do I understand correctly that at that stage you did not have any form of passport or something like that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I had a repatriation papers.

MR JOHNSON: At the stage when you were arrested at Zeerust, where were you held in custody?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was arrested at Zeerust police station by the South African Defence and the South African Security Police.

MR JOHNSON: At some stage you were also then recruited by the Internal Security Unit known as Askari, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Some black members came from Welkom and Sasolburg and then they came to me.

MR JOHNSON: And where did they approach you?  Where were you at that stage when they approached you to recruit you?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: They were not coming to recruit me, they were coming to take me, to arrest me at Welkom police cells and then give me papers of Section 29, of Internal Security Act.

MR JOHNSON: Do I understand correct that at that stage you were held under Section 29 of the then Internal Security Act?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Could you describe how did it happen that you were then recruited to Askari?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: They detained me for a year and some months under Section 29 and they were interrogating me.  Thereafter I was detained under Section 31, to testify against those who came from AZANDLA who were detained at Klerksdorp.

MR JOHNSON: At the initial stage when you were then recruited, first of all did you then indeed join Askari?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: They recruited me after I testified.  I was told by Gramor to come to Welkom after I was released to go and testify at Klerksdorp.  I was informed that people from Bloemfontein would come and fetch me there.

MR JOHNSON: After you were recruited, what was your rank in Askari?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was not issued with a rank, I met with the Commander of Askari, that is Capt Venter.

MR JOHNSON: Is it correct then Sir, that in the initial stages you were only a normal troop, if you want to call it that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is  correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Is it then also correct that at that stage by being a member of Askari, your force number was one of 0450085-7, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.  I went to police college for training in Hammanskraal.

MR JOHNSON: Is it also correct that at some stage you then occupied the rank of Constable?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember in which year it was which you received the rank of Constable?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was between 1991 and 1992.

MR JOHNSON: What were the objectives of this group known as Askari, at that stage?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: The objective was to gather information and again to track down people who had been trained outside.

MR JOHNSON: At that stage, who were you commanders?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: My first Commander was Sgt Barnard and after that it was Haberon.  Another one was Capt Venter and Sgt Botha came later.

MR JOHNSON: In which area were you supposed to operated and then gather information?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was working in various places, in Transvaal, Lesotho, Transkei and Free State as a whole.

MR JOHNSON: The information which you then gathered, who were you supposed to give this information to?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We'd hand over that information to Sgt Barnard and then he would take it to Capt Venter and then he will take it to Col de Kock or to any person whom it is desired to be given to.

MR JOHNSON: During 19 - apparently during 1991 there was an incident in Zulu Street in Rocklands where some shots were fired.  Would you please explain to the Committee what was this incident and what happened there?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was at night.  I don't remember as to whether it was Friday or Saturday, I was having on my person a Makarov pistol.  There were people who were following me, there were about 14 to 15 people.  I produced the firearm and warned them, then I shot at them with the whole magazine.  I did not observe what happened thereafter.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember approximately in which month in 1991 it would have been that this incident took place?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't recall very well, but it was ...

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember if it was in the summer or in the winter?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It could have been during winter time.

MR JOHNSON: Now at that stage you say there were plus minus 14 persons.  What were they doing and what made you suspicious about this group of people?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was disembarking an Opel Rekord car, they were following me.

MR JOHNSON: What did you think they were going to do?