Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, this was my initial statement.  I don't think every applicant has put in the fullest details in his statement.

MR NGUBANE: So you didn't come out clearly because it was just the initial statement?

CHAIRPERSON: But he goes on doesn't he, to say in the paragraph why he had to be killed
"He was a dangerous terrorist"
...and they had every reason to believe he would continue with his activities.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, I do agree, Mr Chairman, I was just interested in this incident, this Amanzimtoti incident and Ramlakan but I won't pursue that line of questioning.
	Now this Ernest Ramatala, your Askari, you say that he is the person who picked up Bhila from Lamontville, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's how I have it, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: When did his role end?

FRANK MCCARTER: When Mr Bhila was handed over to us.

MR NGUBANE: Was he alone when he went to fetch Bhila from Lamontville?

FRANK MCCARTER: As I recall he was, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: You cannot recall the car which he used to fetch Bhila, is that right?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Didn't Ramatala go as far as Amanzimtoti, sorry as far as the area which you referred to as the area that has been changed to a park?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: When the motor vehicle that carried Bhila moved to Umbumbulo, was there any interference with its numberplates?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall, Mr Chairman, but it would definitely have had false plates.  I won't put that down for a fact.

MR NGUBANE: And I take it that you can recall who must have changed those plates.

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Did you at any stage tell Ramatala that the numberplates of the motor vehicle were changed before you could go and kill Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chair, we didn't use the same vehicle as Mr Ramatala had used, we were travelling in one of these minibuses.

MR NGUBANE: No, I'm not referring to Mr Ramatala's vehicle, I mean the vehicle that was used to convey Bhila to where he was killed.  Did you at any stage tell Ramatala that the numberplates of that motor vehicle were removed?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I didn't tell him that but it was common practice for the Security Branch to change numberplates on a regular basis, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: When you left to kill Bhila, did you know where you were heading to, you personally?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did you know that the area was Umbumbulo?

FRANK MCCARTER: I heard it mentioned.

MR NGUBANE: When was that, was it before the killing or after the killing?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't recall, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And I take it you don't recall who mentioned it?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, but it must have been Michael Lembede.

MR NGUBANE: Was it mentioned once or twice or several times?

FRANK MCCARTER: I've travelled that road subsequently, Mr Chairman, so the name is familiar to me.

MR NGUBANE: Well you have travelled that road subsequently, when was that?  That was during the time when you were employed in Maritzburg?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And on the day of the killing you only travelled on that road at night, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know the name of the road - sorry, did you know the name of the road at that time or doesn't it ...?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall that, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Now subsequently, how did you identify that that road was the road that you used to travel and kill Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, from the shooting range it's  a short distance to the turn-off to that road, onto the main road.

MR NGUBANE: Would you say - well, subsequently did you visit the shooting range?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I didn't visit the shooting range but one drives past there on a daily basis, well not a daily basis but regularly and one sees the turn-off there.

MR NGUBANE: And as a result of your driving past that road, you say that you can clearly recall that you went to Umbumbulo, is that right?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't say I went to Umbumbulo, we went on the Umbumbulo Road, the Eston Road.

MR NGUBANE: So you don't know the spot where Bhila was killed?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And after the killing, did you at any stage discuss about the killing of Bhila with anyone?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't recall that, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And when you made your application for amnesty, did it not occur to you to communicate with any of the people that were involved, to give you the direction where you had killed Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, our paths have drifted apart over the years.

MR NGUBANE: In other words, you had not contact with any other person who was involved in the killing?

FRANK MCCARTER: I see Mr Wasserman, I've seen him quite a few times but the others I have no contact with.

MR NGUBANE: You said when you gave your background, after the killing you continued to be the member of the, is it the Security Branch or what is the unit you belonged to?

FRANK MCCARTER: Up until the end '87 I was a member of Vlakplaas and then I went to the, I was still a member of the Security Branch up until 1996 but I worked in different sections.

MR NGUBANE: And the black members that were with you at the time of the killing, when did you lose contract with them?

FRANK MCCARTER: Michael Lembede was shot later that year, I think round about April or May of that year.

MR NGUBANE: And Ernest Mhieza?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, Mhieza was not involved in that specific incident but I do know a Mhieza.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry, it's not Ernest Mhieza, sorry I withdraw that.  Vuzi Mhieza, do you know him?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's the same Mhieza I'm talking about, he worked a the Durban Security Branch but he was not involved in the killing of Bhila.

MR NGUBANE: If the Chair can just bear with me.
	Now your evidence, can you remind me again who were the members, the black members that were involved in the killing of Bhila, especially when you were waiting there for it to get dark, can you recall that?

FRANK MCCARTER: The only person I can recall is Michael Lembede.

MR NGUBANE: Mhieza, you didn't see him on that day?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't recall seeing him on that day, no.

MR NGUBANE: Spyker, do you know the gentleman called Spyker?  Is he one and the same person as Mhieza?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Now at page 15, application by Mr Bosch, that's paragraph 2 he says that
"When it became dark the arrested person was put in the mini-bus and he, Michael, Spyker and also a black member from Vlakplaas whom he thinks is Sergeant Aubrey Mgade, Frank McCarter and Rosslee as well as Wassserman, who is a member of the Security Branch in Durban drove the motor vehicle and left the park."
Is that evidence correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.  The only black member I recall was Michael Lembede, it was myself, Rosslee, Steve Bosch and Wasserman.

MR NGUBANE: Well Sir, I ask you to avoid the word recall, I'm just interested in something we are certain about now.  I want you to be very definite whether this evidence by Mr Bosch is correct or it's incorrect.

FRANK MCCARTER: Where he refers to Aubrey Mgade and Spyker Mhieza he is incorrect.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr McCarter, is it correct as you have testified the white members from Vlakplaas together with certain black members were in Durban from the 10th of February 1986, 87?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.