Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

UNKNOWN: Did you yourself - do you know whether any of the shots that you fired at the Kombi, did it hit anybody or did it kill anybody?

A J G ERWEE: I shot into the interior of the mini-bus. I am assuming in good faith that some of my shots should have or could have hit some of the passengers.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it must have, unless you were a very poor shot.  When you did that, did you think that you were acting unlawfully?

A J G ERWEE: No, the pistol shot and the volley of AK-47 shots, I didn't even give instructions for the members to fire, they fired automatically.

UNKNOWN: That brings us to the, was it a cool, calculated operation and conduct from all the members there or was the situation fairly chaotic?

A J G ERWEE: May I ask you to please repeat?

UNKNOWN: I am asking you whether it was a cool, calculated operation and action from yourself and the other members or was it a different kind of situation?

A J G ERWEE: It was a different sort of situation.

UNKNOWN: What gave rise to that?

A J G ERWEE: It is the fact that the bus moved further than what it actually was supposed to do and that made our plans go a bit awry.

UNKNOWN: Now if it is suggested that this whole operation was just a cloak for an ambush and that you decided beforehand to kill these people, what would your answer be?

A J G ERWEE: That would be a blatant lie if anybody makes such a statement.

UNKNOWN: Honourable Chairperson, please allow me a couple of seconds.
	You were present in the audience and you heard the  of Matthews Sehlwana, who said that he was present in the river bed when the wounded person was lying on his side, and he was amongst a group of people who were standing in a circle around this wounded man and Tokkie Fuchs was busy interrogating this person.  And at some point during this interrogation Tokkie Fuchs took his pistol and shot this person in the chest, as a result of which he died.  You heard that ?

A J G ERWEE: Correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Would you like to comment on that?

A J G ERWEE: This wounded person that was reported to me, I personally went to the Kombi to fetch him and I personally carried him for about 20, 30 paces into the river bed where I made him comfortable.  There Tokkie Fuchs and I questioned the man.  There were people standing around us, and later when the person lost consciousness I chased them away.  I wanted enough space around this person.  And as I have already said, after I was overwhelmed by teargas in the Casspir I ran away in an easterly direction for about 50 to 80 metres.  After about 10 minutes I returned and the people were standing around the vehicles.  From the time that I ran away to get away from the teargas and until the time when I returned, I didn't hear a shot being fired.
	But, if Sgt Sehlwana was referring to the wounded person, which Fuchs and I questioned, Fuchs definitely didn't shoot him.  On the contrary, it would have been outrageous for me to have allowed that, and I think it would have been outrageous for Tokkie Fuchs to have done that in full view of myself and other people.  I can't explain it.

UNKNOWN: And judging from the wounds which these people had sustained, he was in any case dying.  Is that not so?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: As far as this person is concerned, you have already said that you gave instructions that he should be transported to Alldays as soon as possible.

A J G ERWEE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You needed to keep him alive so that he could be questioned.

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that was the whole idea.

UNKNOWN: Were you present when his body was loaded onto the bakkie?

A J G ERWEE: I personally loaded him onto the bakkie, but I did have help.

UNKNOWN: Was he dead or was he alive?

A J G ERWEE: He was still alive, but unconscious.  He still had a pulse.

UNKNOWN: Did you feel the pulse?

A J G ERWEE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And when the bakkie with Theuns Gerber, who is now deceased, when that departed, did the situation change then or did it stay the same?

A J G ERWEE: When I got to Alldays a report was made to me that the deceased had died.  I assumed it must have been somewhere along the road, because when they got to Alldays the wounded person had already died.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, after this introduction I now have no further questions.  Something might crop up later and I might then put further questions, but at this stage I don't.

ADV DE JAGER: I am quite worried if you say that that was the introduction.

UNKNOWN: Introduction for cross-examination by my learned friends.  No, that is the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Erwee, are you going to give us your notes?

A J G ERWEE: With pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't mind handing them over to us?  The notes that you have been reading into the record.   We can make a photocopy and still give you a copy.

A J G ERWEE: I do it gladly.  I still have one set of notes.  My reasons for applying for amnesty are set out in them.  I also have that here.  I can make that all available to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I was referring to the notes which you have just read when as to why you instructed Swarts to deal with the inquest?

A J G ERWEE: Chairperson, you have them there.  Maybe I should point it out to you, to assist you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Erwee, you have just handed to us, a one-page document headed Politieke Redes. I believe this is what you read into the record to amplify paragraphs 10(a) and (b) of your application.  Am I right?

A J G ERWEE: You are correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will mark that EXHIBIT E, thank you.  It is a one-page document.
EXHIBIT E HANDED IN

CHAIRPERSON: And again we have this document entitled Nadoodse Ondersoek. These are the notes which you have just read into the record as to why you instructed Swarts to deal with the inquest, to handle the inquest.  It is a three-page document and handwritten again. It will be EXHIBIT F.
EXHIBIT F HANDED IN

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw?

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Erwee, as you were asked quite justifiably and answered, that if the suggestion was to be made to you that this was a planned operation - I am not going to make such a statement to you, but the question I would like to ask you and you must please see the distinction, in the light of the exercise and rehearsal which took place beforehand, and the fact that you were 36 members of the security force and police, the air support, et cetera, and the chaos which can be expected if teargas is thrown into a vehicle, the knowledge that armed people were crossing the border, et cetera. You heard that Matthews Sehlwana testified that in his mind the thought that these people would be shot - I am not saying that that was the case, I am asking you, do you think that conclusion of his was a reasonable one?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, I would like to comment on that. I believe that Matthews might well knew that we wanted to arrest these people but he also knew that should things not go according to the plan, there would be no hesitation in shooting and therefore I say he is correct, if he says that there was a reasonable conclusion that if things weren't going correctly there would be a shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, in all fairness to you, before you say you agree with him, after - his evidence was that after the rehearsal at the river, he concluded that this whole plan was to kill these people, not to arrest them and in case something goes wrong, to, you know, to kill them or to shoot, if necessary. His evidence is simply that he was of the view that what was being planned was really to kill these people, not to arrest them.