Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: (Continues)  If I can then continue.
	Mr Mthembu, on Friday we were dealing with the reason that you gave for attacking Boipatong and one of the things that you said was that two people had been killed in Boipatong and you mentioned a person by the name of Gazu and a person by the name of Mbatha.  Now I'm putting to you that no person by the name of Gazu and no person by the name of Mbatha was killed in Boipatong before the attack.  Do you have any comment on that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I am only talking about what I know.  The two people I mentioned on Friday are people I know that are deceased and were killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You cannot tell the Committee when they were killed can you?  You cannot even put a year to it.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot remember quite clearly which year it was.

MR BERGER: Now if you would look at page 29 of the bundle, paragraph 17.4, you give the reasons for attacking Boipatong.  I see you've been reading paragraph 17.4, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: The first reason you say
"They also threatened the residents of the Kwamadala Hostel"
Who is the: "they"?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The residents of Boipatong, because they did not allow us to come into the township even to buy from the shops.

MR BERGER: Were you ever threatened?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: At the time of the attack, is it correct that there were IFP supporters living in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know that Sir.

MR BERGER: You had family staying in Boipatong, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: You had friends staying in Boipatong, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Well have a look them please at page 41 of your bundle, paragraph 15.  In the middle of that paragraph you say
"We realised that we partook in the massacre of people, some of whom were my family and friends and I feel very bad about this"
From your own hand we see that you had family and friends living in Boipatong who were killed during the attack, isn't that what you say?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I was explaining here was about the people with whom I had once been romantically involved who were staying in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: I don't understand your answer Mr Mthembu.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Here Sir I was speaking about my ex-girlfriend.  I don't know whether it is understandable.

MR BERGER: Your ex-girlfriend's family was killed in that attack, is that what you are saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Although I would not know but I think they were injured.

MR BERGER: What was their name?  Let's start with the name of your ex-girlfriend.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Katiwe Dlamini.

MR BERGER: And the members of her family who were injured or killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know Sir what eventually happened to them because at that stage I could not communicate with them.

MR BERGER: Well, can you then give us the names of her family who she was staying with?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I will not give you these names because I've only concerned with the girl I was in love with but I did not know about her parents or the members of her family.

MR BERGER: Where did she live in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: In the streets opposite the shops in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: What street was that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know its name.

MR BERGER: When did you start visiting her in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Around 1991.

MR BERGER: And when did you stop visiting here in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't remember when I stopped visiting her.

MR BERGER: How long was she your girlfriend?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Please repeat your question.

MR BERGER: How long was she your girlfriend?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Because of the fact that we never broke up I think she is still my girlfriend but we cannot see each other anymore and I don't know where she is now and she also doesn't know where I am now.

MR BERGER: You see because you told the Committee last week that you had never been into Boipatong until the night of the massacre.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not say that, you never asked me a question about that.

MR BERGER: So the family and friends that you are referring to in this paragraph are the family of your girlfriend, Katiwe Dlamini?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: This whole paragraph was supposed to explain about the family members or rather members of the family who were victimised or traumatised by the Boipatong incident as a whole.

MR BERGER: No, Mr Mthembu, that's not what you say here at all.  You say here very clearly that some of the people
"We realised that we partook in the massacre of people, some of whom were my family and friends"
In other words some of the people who were massacred were your family and friends and you feel very bad about that and that's what you're saying sorry for, isn't that what you're saying here?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Please try to understand that I was not only referring to the person I was in love with or the family members thereof but I was speaking generally about the attack on the people of Boipatong and I feel badly that people were killed and I ask for forgiveness for everything that happened, from the family members of the people who were victimised.

MR BERGER: Because some of them who were killed were your family and your friends, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: All in all I was speaking of everybody who was traumatised or victimised, not necessarily friends or family members.

MR BERGER: Why is it that you don't want to conceded Mr Mthembu, that at the time of the massacre there were IFP supporters still living in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know I do not have knowledge of that.  What I know is that prior to the attack many IFP members had left the township because they were being terrorised there and they fled to Kwamadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that the people who had been chased out of the township were people who had been accused by the community of being criminals who stole, who raped, who stabbed and who killed people?  Isn't that why they were chased out of the township?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge of that.

MR BERGER: People who were terrorising the community as I've described, those are the people who were chased out of the township, isn't that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know anything about that Sir.

MR BERGER: Alright.  Let me refer you then to the confession of one of your co-applicants, Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize.  This is the man who you say took the decision or one of the people who took the decision to attack Boipatong, do you remember that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: If you look at his confession which he made on the 11th of July 1992 very shortly after the massacre, if you'll turn to page four you'll see there he describes what happened on the night of the 17th and if you look in the middle of the page ...[intervention]

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I don't think he has ...[intervention]

MR LAX: I just noticed he didn't have a copy.

MR BERGER: Oh, Mr Mthembu doesn't have a copy?

MR LAX: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: I don't have a copy either Mr Chairperson.  I'm sorry, I think she is making some for us at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, can you read Afrikaans?
	This statement is in Afrikaans, right?

MR BERGER: It is yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you read Afrikaans?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: I have a copy now from my learned friend, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.