Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR SWANEPOEL: Doctor Basson.

MR CHASKALSON: And under what circumstances, how was your new job explained to you?

MR SWANEPOEL: Doctor Basson explained that they had a front company where the management aspects and the co-ordinating aspects in terms of personnel and finance had become a bit or a problem, got out of hand, and they had problems with the control thereof.
 He asked me whether I would be prepared to take up this role as I had already had managerial experience from my stint in the Defence Force.  He asked me whether I would do this and after two or three months I said yes.

MR CHASKALSON: So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that there was a management problem at the company and they wanted you to go in and try and sort that out

MR SWANEPOEL: There was a management crisis as I later realised, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: And you said that you had had experience during your time in the Army with these sort of management issues?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's correct, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you have any scientific background?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you told what the nature of the work that was to be done at RRL was?

MR SWANEPOEL: I was informed that RRL dealt with the evaluation and the development of biological and chemical agents for the purpose of being able to diagnose them and to trace them and to be able to diagnose the working thereof and in whichever form it could be expected in terms of diagnosis.  And then I was also informed that the ultimate purpose was to give treatments, neutralisation methods and contamination which had to be developed.

MR CHASKALSON: So this sounds a strictly defensive programme.  Your aim is to identify possible substances that could be used in chemical and biological warfare and then  undertake work to neutralise such agents, decontaminants?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's correct, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you.  What was your title when you joined RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: In which regard are you referring to now?

MR CHASKALSON: Well, were you the Managing Director of the Company?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, initially I was the Director of Management Services.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you explain how the structure worked when you joined?

MR SWANEPOEL: The structure at Roodeplaat?

MR CHASKALSON: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: Roodeplaat was divided - and I cannot recall very well but I'm going to try my best, into a Research and Development Section and then the Experimental Animal Centre and a Personnel Section.

MR CHASKALSON: Maybe let me phrase the question in a slightly different manner.  Could you tell us who were Directors at the time you joined the company and what each of the Director's functions were?

MR SWANEPOEL: Doctor Daan Goosen was the Managing Director.  Doctor Schalk van Rensburg was in Laboratory Services and Doctor Andre Immelman was there for Research and Development and Mr D W Sparmer was the Head of Personnel and Administration.  They were also the Directors.

MR CHASKALSON: And was Doctor Goosen a Director as the same time as you were a Director or did you replace him?

MR SWANEPOEL: He remained as a Director for a short while afterwards, approximately four to five months and then he was made the Managing Director of another company in the group.

MR CHASKALSON: At that stage was anybody appointed as the Managing Director of the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: I was appointed, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: What are your understandings of the function of a Managing Director of a company?

MR SWANEPOEL: To control the effectiveness of the Company in terms of personnel co-ordination to do a task and motivation as well as to achieve results.  And my view of this was to achieve production effectivity or effectiveness and to take control of financial management and to make it streamlined.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you see yourself as having any involvement in the actual subject matter of the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Isn't that a little strange?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: So you are a Director of a Biological Company and your functions in regard to that company are personnel related, financially related and production related?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not personal, personnel.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: You had absolutely no function whatsoever at your company?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Who had that responsibility?

MR SWANEPOEL: Doctor Andre Immelman was the Head of Research and Development, Doctor van Rensburg was appointed to do the ethical aspects of research and to  approve these first of
all.

MR CHASKALSON: You said at the outset that the company was a front company, who did you report to in the SADF structure?

MR SWANEPOEL: We had various structures.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you elaborate on those please?

MR SWANEPOEL: It was the KBK which was referred to earlier, the Financial Committee and a Security Committee and the CCC.

MR CHASKALSON: What would be reported to each of those structures?

MR SWANEPOEL: To the CCC reporting was mainly done regarding the financial and personnel aspects and the future of the company and the course of the company.  The Financial Committee which ran parallel to this, dealt with the financial matters which were reported on monthly and the Security Committee, we reported to them on - well, this was highly confidential by nature of the case, and we had to have quite a great deal of communication about this, about various information from their side and from ours.

MR CHASKALSON: Would reporting of experimentation that was taking place at the company be to the Security side of things?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Who would that reporting be made to?

MR SWANEPOEL: The reporting of research results, we dealt with them as any other contract in the company and that was to the person who gave the instruction, Doctor Basson.

MR CHASKALSON: You mentioned that when you joined the company there was an administrative crisis?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's correct.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you elaborate on that?

MR SWANEPOEL: It was not an administrative crisis alone, it was a management crisis in general.  All three the other Directors, Messrs Sparmer, Doctor van Rensburg and Doctor Immelman made the statement that they could no longer work together with and under Doctor Goosen, that he kept the financial aspects a secret.
 He never involved them in the formulation of budgets etc., personnel matters were not supported by him and they did not see their way clear to work under him and I hear that, I think that this is where the crisis existed.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you give any explanation why none of this was mentioned by Doctor van Rensburg when he gave his evidence?

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no idea, I cannot speculate about that.

MR CHASKALSON: And if he said that he thought that Doctor Goosen was doing a good job, you would say that he was lying?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is his interpretation.

MR CHASKALSON: You have just said now that he had said to you that he was unhappy with Doctor Goosen's performance at the time.

MR SWANEPOEL: That was the reason why I came to the company.

MR CHASKALSON: Was that a reason that was given to you by Doctor van Rensburg or was that a reason that was given to you by some other party?

MR SWANEPOEL: It was given by both, at least by all the Directors as well as all the outside parties.

MR CHASKALSON: So if Doctor van Rensburg has told us that he no problem with the management style of Doctor Goosen nor of his performance in the company, which incidentally involved both input into the scientific and other general management procedures, you would say that he was lying either to us now or to you at the time?

MR SWANEPOEL: I put it so unequivocally, yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Swanepoel, he told us that your appointment was the end of the future.  Do you have any comment on that?

MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot comment on his opinion, no.