Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, this happened at one and the same time.  It was just a second after I had finished shooting this person, these are not different incidents.  Because I thought maybe these were MK members who had been with this boy or who were colleagues of this person.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright to be more direct, for shooting at the police ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe if you look at page 407, it's murder and four attempted murders.
	How many policemen were there Mr Ndlovu?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I don't remember whether there were 4 or 5.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chair can guide me, page 407?

CHAIRPERSON: It just says he's applying for murder and four attempted murders.  Now he says he can't recall whether there were 4 or 5 policemen.  I take it, perhaps Mr Wills can confirm it, that the four attempted murders relate to this evidence we've just heard.

MR WILLS: That's correct yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now these 4 attempted murders, let's go straight on it.  Were these policemen when you were firing at them, were they of any opposition to your organisation?
CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My question was, were they of your opposition, these policemen?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair in actual fact I explained that I did not know whether they were policemen because they were in a private car.  I thought that they may be colleagues of the deceased, therefore I cannot say for certain whether they were the political opponents, but I thought that they were colleagues, or part of MK.  That is what I thought at the time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills do have any re-examination, not only out of this new evidence, but out of the cross-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Khampepe do you have any questions to ask the witness?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu I'm going to confine the first question to the incident in which Mr Bongane Ntombela was killed.  You have described the crowd of who you perceived to have been ANC members, as having been a big crowd.  How big was that crowd in terms of numbers, can you approximate whether it was approximately 20; 40; a few hundred people who comprised that crowd?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: About 15 to 20.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You have also stated the reason why you killed Mr Ntombela was because you recognised him as having been amongst those people who had passed some insolent remarks, particularly about you being Gadga's stooges, am I correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you briefly explain to us how you were able to recognise that Mr Ntombela had indeed been amongst the crowd of people who had passed such insolent remarks about your organisation and your leader?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair this happened within a short space of time.  When we returned, it was at about 2, after we had seen him at around midday.  We recognised the clothes that he had been wearing before.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What clothes had he been wearing?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I think he had a yellowish jersey on, although I cannot remember what sort of pants he had.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you able, from a crowd of approximately 15 to 20 people, still able to distinguish a person wearing simply a jersey, and by that kind of clothing only be able to associate that person as being amongst the crowd that had passed insolent remarks to you?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair I think there must be something that I missed.  When we met him he hesitated for a minute.  That is how we indeed confirmed that he must have been there.  I don't think I mentioned this before, I must have made a mistake.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you met him for the second time, were you openly carrying your firearms?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would you not have thought that he probably hesitated because he saw you in possession of firearms?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: If you know that you are guilty and you meet the person whom you wronged, you try by all means to get away.  So I think he realised that these are the people who he had met before, and he was afraid and tried to flee.  If you have a guilty conscience about something you've done, that is how you behave.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now in your statement which forms part of your application that has just been circulated to us and it's written 416, you state that Bongane Ntombela had been killed because he had killed special constable Nwabe.  Do you know this as a fact, that Bongane Ntombela had killed constable Nwabe?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I will explain this, I did not say it for a fact that he did kill him, but we thought he must have been part of the group that killed constable Nwabe at Imbali.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you think he was part of the group that killed constable Nwabe?  On what grounds did you base your suspicion?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: It was a suspicion that we had because when we caught him we assaulted him and we were questioning him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you only suspected that he might have killed constable Nwabe once you caught him?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Even though it was not him who killed the constable, we must also, we should have done something in retaliation for the act that had been committed against the constable to actually relay a message to them that what they can do, we also can do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So that could have - your retaliation could have been metered out on any person other than Bongane Ntombela?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I would say that he was unfortunate to meet us on that day.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  With regard to the incident which involved Mr Kanyele shooting a pregnant woman, do you recall that incident that you have testified to?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What I want to know is, for what purpose you had gone to the house where the pregnant woman was.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: The person that we had been looking for from that house, the person who had been shooting at us had been in that yard and when we went there, we went there to search or to look for this person.  But when we got there they refused to open the door, and that is how it came about that or the occupants of the house were shot at.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would I therefore be correct in saying that the original intention of going to that house was not to kill any of the occupants in the house?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Khampepe.  Mr Moloi do you have any questions.

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ndlovu from your evidence, especially the cross-examination or the examination rather by Mr Mpshe, I understand that at that trial you faced with regard to the murder of Ntombela, you devised a defence which you raised to protect yourself.  Is that right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: And did you testify at the hearing in support of this defence you raised?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I did testify.

MR MOLOI: And your evidence there must have been under oath, was it not?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: An oath to tell the truth and nothing else but the truth, right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: And yet you did not tell the truth at that hearing, am I right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: If your defence was upheld to you, you would have walked out there a free man.  Is that correct with regard to ...(intervention)

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: And you also gave evidence here today under oath, is it right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: You say this Committee and the community should believe that you are now telling the truth under oath.  Is that right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.