Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell Captain who was there?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Ramaligela, he is now a director there.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that please?  Is that the person who appears as being the fourth applicant? Okay.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Right and then Warrant Officer Managa and ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that M-A-N-A-G-A ?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: That's right. It is pronounced Managa in Venda.  With a dot on top of the 'N'.  The first 'N'.

MR MEYER: So it was Captain Ramaligela, Warrant Officer Managa and who else?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: And Nesamari, and then Captain Sifuwa who has since died.

MR MEYER: Now during your investigation what information did you receive with regard to the persons that might have been involved in the attack?

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer? Wasn't Mr Netshivale a part of the investigating team?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I am now referring to the senior persons who were actually forming the investigation unit in respect of that particular case unit.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: But then you had other subordinates who were lower than the rank of Warrant Officer of which I can not call them, I cannot, they cannot form part of the investigation.  They are only from time to time called in to assist.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay.  What was the rank of Sifuwa?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Sifuwa was a Captain.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Judge Khampepe.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: During our investigation we found out that persons who had physically carried out the attack were one Mmbengeni Kone, David Malada, John Mwendamutsu Mamabolo ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Could you spell ...(indistinct)

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I could do that.  I don't know whether I should use the military terminology to spell them or should I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just use the alphabet.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay fine thank you. Mmbengeni is M-M-B-E-N-G-E-N-I;  Kone K-O-N-E - that's the surname; David Malada M-A-L-A-D-A and John Mwendamutsu, Mwendamutsu is M-W-E-N-D-A-M-U-T-S-U Mamabolo - M-A-M-A-B-O-L-O.
	Now investigation revealed that these three men had infiltrated South Africa from Zimbabwe after receiving some training in weapons outside the country.  Investigations revealed that Kone and Malada had already visited the Lutheran Church Centre at Busto which is plus minus seven kilometres from Sibasa during April 1981.

MR MEYER: General if I can just take you back a bit.  The persons who were arrested which are listed in your application in paragraph 50, several pastors of the Lutheran Church, page 31 of the bundle of documents, now those people were arrested by yourself or your team, your subordinates, on what basis were they arrested?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: We had received information that the van belonging to the Lutheran Church Centre at Busto had been used to convey the three armed men to attack as well as the vehicle of Isaac Sipiwa to attack the police station.  We also learned that a certain Mahope had been seen at the scene of the attack, so that prompted the arrest of these people.

MR MEYER: Generally speaking the pastors or the people who were involved with the Lutheran Church, can you tell us something about their political viewpoints at the time?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: It is known to everyone, even in South Africa is then because we had the independent homeland Venda, but in all parts of South Africa the clergy was known to support the liberation movement and all other supportive activities.  We then decided to detain and question these people.

MR MEYER: All right, carry on what happened then?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Now, as I said earlier during the investigation we found that the persons responsible for the attack are those names, are the names that I have given, the three names that I have given and then that the people who had assisted those three people were then rounded up.

MR MEYER: You're talking about the people who are listed in paragraph 50?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Paragraph 50.

MR MEYER: If you say they were rounded up, were they arrested all of them at once or were there time periods between the arrest that took place?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I can't remember the timing, but these people were arrested almost in a fortnight together or three weeks time.  I can't remember, I can't recall very well.

MR MEYER: The three people that you found out that were responsible for the attack, the names that you just spelled a while ago, did you ever, were you ever able to arrest them?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, no Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: Now General, after the people who are listed in paragraph 15 were arrested, they were detained and they were interrogated.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Meyer, just before you proceed if I may interrupt, General if you take a look at 15.6 and 15.7 that's Messrs Mahumela and Ravele, were they also linked to the Lutheran Church because they are described as being respectively a prosecutor and a security guard?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, then, they were actually friends of the other five.  And then investigations revealed that they also - these number 15.6 was used as recce, you know to go and find out what, how the situation was like at the police station, whether it was safe for those men who was to attack the police station to come and attack.
	And then the 15.7, this person was we found out later on that he conveyed these people by a vehicle, a kombi which he rented from someone and then took them, took the three people who attacked the police station out of the country.  I'll say not exactly taken them out of the country but moved them out of Venda as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Meyer let's proceed.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now after as I have said after these people had been arrested they were detained and they were questioned, they were interrogated and they were also assaulted, tortured etc.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: You as the head of the team, if I can call it a team, were you aware of the fact that detainees generally and these people more specifically that certain methods were used during interrogations which constituted gross human violations?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes I was aware Mr Chair I think it has been - it was tendency throughout South Africa, especially from the Security Branch and other law enforcement agencies who were actually specialising in security matters to make use of certain methods in order to make the suspect, the suspects confess or reveal what they had done.

MR MEYER: Can you tell us what those methods entailed?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Well I think everything differs from one policeman to another.  There are various methods that we used, others used bags, or a hood, others used water and others used methods of a where you asked the suspects to undress and then remain with underwear only and then you humiliate him by using words which are unbecoming so that he eventually can break or crack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who had been trusted to know the methods that you personally used, you were the Deputy Commander isn't it?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I did not use any of the methods I am talking about except use my hand after I had lost my temper.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, Mr Meyer what direction are we taking by the question that you have just posed to Mr Ramushwana?

MR MEYER: I am just trying to get a background of what the violations were that were committed and the methods of questioning that were used because those are the exact things that the applicants are asking amnesty for.