Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR VALLY: I ask this question because if you look at your first submission on page 71, where you talk about the Pango Mutiny, and you actually say - alright, on the left-hand column, the second paragraph from the bottom
"None of the second group of eight was executed, despite the fact that one of the mutineers had hunted down wounded comrades the morning after the mutiny began and finished them off."
So how did you decide who was executed and who wasn't? He was in fact released.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: First of all, we had at that stage the code of conduct regulating the conduct of members of our organisation. Secondly, the facts of the mutiny. But as you know a tribunal acts in its own judgment on the basis of the evidence presented to it. And we have drawn attention in this submission to the one individual who was not executed, even though the information had indicated that he had participated at that level.

MR VALLY: What I am driving at, is that there were no fixed rules of procedure. It seemed an ad hoc arrangement. Some people would be executed and some people wouldn't be, who seemed to have committed the same offence, and I understood that at this stage, there was no code of conduct. The code of conduct came in in 1985, after the Kabwe Conference.

MOUNTAIN XHOSO: Well, I wanted to add on this. It is true that it was no code of conduct then, but it was already starting to circulate in preparation for the Kabwe Conference. But there were rules and regulations of the army and rules and regulations of various camps. In this particular instance of this individual, actually more people were sentenced to execution by that tribunal. Then the first seven were executed, but the leadership of the ANC had sent a message to say that we should hold, there should be no more executions. That is how then they escaped, they were not executed, but there were actually sentenced also for execution.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I think that there is a reasoning that went on now that Comrade Mountain has reminded me of the two batches and the intervention by Lusaka. When we looked at the incident in Lusaka we realised that agents being sent by the regime were Black and they were sent in ways where the regime was not caring for their lives. It enhanced the capacity we would have to rehabilitate such persons.
Also, we were concerned in Lusaka that the first trial, the first batch, had been executed and we felt that those - that that process of tribulation decision in regard to executions should be governed also by a review process. That we felt that this was not an incident of just one person being executed and then us having some space to decide on a proper mechanism. Here were a group of people executed, another group were coming up for trial, and we said we cannot go this way, we need a review process.

MR ZUMA: If I can say something as well on this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just say again for the sake of the radio audience, Jacob Zuma.

MR ZUMA: Thank you very much. The point I wanted to make here or probably an observation, is that there are general understood rules in military institutions. I think the question of mutiny is usually dealt by the army itself, on the basis of what the soldiers have done. Here, the reason why this was a military tribunal, because it was being dealt with at that level, and decisions were taken at that level by the military tribunal, on the basis of the mutiny that has caused the kind of damage as reflected in the evidence. 	Now there might be in the world of human rights, probably a possibility of the legal people coming to deal with such situations, but situations in the army are not the same, because it might depend where the mutiny is committed. Also, the armies themselves are not of the same, you are looking here - the Deputy President has dealt with the guerrilla war and the situations where these armies are situated. So it was in that context that the military tribunal was set up, and the report was given to the leadership, when action had been taken on the basis of the convictions that have been made.
The important point is that the leadership then intervened and said hold on, even if there are those rules, given the adherence of the ANC to the principles of human rights, it may be necessary that we do the review.
I may add that other national liberation movements in fact do not enter into such elaborate arrangements. Once an enemy agent is discovered, he is dealt with immediately. We went into elaborate arrangements to try to deal with the human rights and give the right to such people. Normally in any national liberation movement that you could study in the world, they don't go through such procedures. Once an enemy agent is discovered undermining the struggle, is dealt with. We went the other way. That's why even a person who did such brutal murdering, cold-blooded murder, even finish off people that he had not seen during the night, but his life had to be spared. I just thought I should make that point, because it is an important point.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.