Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well the question that I've asked you, according to your evidence, also appeared on the form, According to your earlier evidence.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well did you skip that question or did you ask them that question?

MR MAMOME: I do not remember well, I think I asked them that question because I was going paragraph by paragraph.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well that must have been a very important question ANd the answer then if would probably be even more important, of interest to you. Did you ask them that question or did you not ask them that question?

MR MAMOME: I asked them that question and if they did not give answers there was nothing more to do.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did they answer it or not, before we come to that, to what you do if they didn't answer it. Did they answer it?

MR MAMOME: Some of them, Chairperson, answered the question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And some of them didn't?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What do you mean by saying some of them didn't answer the question?

MR MAMOME: I mean when you asked him: "man what were you going to do", the answer would be: "no I'm not in a position to answer that question".

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And would you leave it there?

MR MAMOME: That is correct, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Stander.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry you said if they - you've asked certain questions then you handed the form to another section.

MR MAMOME: Yes, It was called the investigation unit.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, to whom did you hand that form?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I do not remember specifically to who did I give this form because it was confusion on that day.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was the head of the investigative unit to whom this form should be handed?

MR MAMOME: Captain Du Plooy.

MR STANDER: Mr Mamome, I understood you to say that these people gave their co-operation when you asked them the questions But when Judge Ngoepe asked you what happened when the people did not want to reply, then you just kept quiet.
    Then surely it is not due to the fact that they always gave their co-operation, or did I understand you incorrectly?

MR MAMOME: I might have made a mistake, that's true.

MR STANDER: But why did you make such a mistake?  Was there a specific reason for you making such a mistake?

MR MAMOME: No.

MR STANDER: Will you explain?

MR MAMOME: Ask your question Sir.

MR STANDER: You told us that you made a mistake. I would like to know from you whether there was a reason why you made such a mistake?  Perhaps you did not hear what was said.

MR MAMOME: Mr Stander, you ask your questions differently from Judge Ngoepe, you are very fast in asking your questions.  You've got your way of asking questions, his got his own way of asking questions and his is polite.
	Now if a person speaks to me and the person shouts, you make me nervous.  Now when you speak to me please cool down.

MR STANDER: I am sorry, I think the Chairman would have interrupted me a long time ago, as well as your legal representatives if they had thought that I was cross-examining you unfairly.
    Would you like to tell us now that the reason why you made a mistake was because that I cross-examined you in an improper manner?

MR MAMOME: I did not understand your question as it was put by Judge Ngoepe.

MR STANDER: I'm going to repeat.  On a question from Judge Ngoepe - or let me rather start.  I asked you when you asked or questioned this group of 19 you told us that you had their co-operation throughout and that they gave the answers which satisfied you.
    When Judge Ngoepe asked you, specifically as a result of this, you answered that on some of the questions, among others what they were going to do overseas, that replied that they were not going to even answer to that question.  Then I asked you, I said that they didn't give their co-operation in that case and you told us that you made a mistake.  
	The question now is, did you not understand the questions or what is the position?

MR MAMOME: That is correct, I did not understand your question.

MR STANDER: Did you not understand my question or that of judge Mwepi?

MR MAMOME: Your question, Mr Stander.

MR STANDER: I'm going to put it to you again. If you told me that the people gave their co-operation throughout and gave their replies to all your questions, or did you not say that?

MR MAMOME: I said that.

MR STANDER: Why did you then when Judge Ngoepe asked you, specifically with regard to the visit overseas, said that the - you said that the people told you that they were not going to reply to that question?  Or did you misunderstand Judge Ngoepe?

MR MAMOME: You took 10 I think, I do not know where to answer.  Let me take it one one, Sir, I will split it.  I am listening as you are talking, it is difficult, start again step by step.
    The people that I interrogated it was not as such interrogation, it was a form, a district form, a history form.  Some of them were co-operative, they answered all questions, some of them were not answering questions.
    Some of the questions would be answered, some of the questions would not be answered, that's all.

MR STANDER: I'm asking you again, why did you then tell me that you received replies to all the questions you put to them?

MR MAMOME: When you interrogate people or ask questions, you don't only fill in that form, there are many other issues that you ask people questions about. Now to answer your question: Some of the questions were answered, some of the questions were not answered.  Now when I replied to your question I was generalising.

MR STANDER: So you were generalising?

MR MAMOME: I answered your question in that way when you asked me.

MR STANDER: So you did not misunderstand my question, you were just generalising.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] get on with this, you've made a point haven't you, Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I will try to speed things up.
    Let's go on to the question that you asked them as to what they were going to do in Maseru.  You say that there were some of them that weren't prepared to answer that question.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: But was it not important for you to know the answer to that question?

MR MAMOME: Every question on that form is very important.

MR STANDER: When they did not reply to such an important question as in your own testimony, what did you do then?

MR MAMOME: He was going to the cells.

MR STANDER: So when they did not want to answer your questions, you had them locked up.

MR MAMOME: When they are in the cells they are no longer in my hands they are under the people responsible for investigation.

MR STANDER: The question I put you, in all fairness, is that they did not want to reply to the questions as to what they were going to do in Maseru, did you do nothing about it?

MR MAMOME: Nothing.

MR STANDER: You did not even try to put the question differently, in your own version?

MR MAMOME: Nothing Sir.

MR STANDER: Let me put it to you that I find it highly improbable and extremely strange.

MR MAMOME: Carry on Sir, I'm listening.

MR STANDER: You must reply to that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not a question, you are making a statement, Mr Stander, you say I find it extremely strange.

MR STANDER: I just gave him a fair chance to reply because if I had not done that then surely I cannot argue about that at the end of the day.  I will, however leave it there, I think I've made my point.
    Tell me, did you work on the 5th floor?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Also in the so called Violent Street?

MR MAMOME: That's a sticker, There's never been a place such as that one.

MR STANDER: So was the passage, according to you, not even called Violent Street?

MR MAMOME: No.