Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: You can't even begin to refer to Reverend Posiwa's statement if he has admitted that Reverend Posiwa was arrested after Dean Farisani.  The reason why you arrested Mr Farisani was because you have this information that linked him to the bombing of the Sibasa police station.  Now what information did you have that linked him to the bombing of the police station at the time of effecting an arrest?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: If I can still remember well, although I cannot put it exactly in a way, maybe you will not be able to understand that but you will - I am sure that Reverend Farisani, while we were investigating the case it was found - if Farisani was arrested later, it is said that two people came to Dr Farisani not following Posiwa's statement, I think it's because of those two people, because we heard that there were two people who went to his home, because by that time we were thoroughly investigating after the bombing to find out whether there were no people who infiltrated, coming in and out, but it was found that two people went to his home.  That is what I think is what resulted in his arrest.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who told you that two people had come to Farisani's home?  Was that Reverend Posiwa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is from the statement of Mr Posiwa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's right, I know that.  But now Mr Posiwa - you've just admitted, Ms Mtanga put it to you that Mr Posiwa was arrested after Mr Farisani had been arrested, and you agreed that that was so ...(intervention)

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact Ms Mtanga has put it to you that that is the evidence that will be given to this Committee by Mr Posiwa and Dean Farisani that it was him, meaning Dean Farisani was arrested first.  So if you relied on the statement of Reverend Posiwa when arresting Mr Farisani it doesn't tally, you will agree.  You couldn't have known about two persons having gone to Mr Farisani's place because that information was as a result of the statement obtained from Mr Posiwa when he made that statement whilst he was being interrogated by you.  So that's why we are very confused about the evidence you are giving now.
	If you say the reason for arresting him was because of the information that was obtained from the statement made by Mr Posiwa, obviously Mr Posiwa was not yet in the picture when Mr Farisani was arrested.  So what reason did you have to arrest him as a suspect linking him to the bombing of the Sibasa Police Station?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: The Committee must forgive me.  I can't really recall who was arrested first I can put it clearly.  But what happened is that one of the things which confirmed the incidence is that in Dr Farisani two people went there and then we take it from there but I am not sure who was first arrested.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you do again concede that the information that came to light that linked Mr Farisani to the two people who had come into his house was the information that came from the statement made by Mr Posiwa?  You agree to that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It might be true.  I cannot put it clearly now.

CHAIRPERSON: You see it's apparent from the statement made by Mr Posiwa that Dean Farisani was arrested before he was because on page 98 he says
"Sometime after the arrest of Dean Farisani when Reverend Poswana and I were on the way to Pietersburg by car we discussed and made a vow that in case we got arrested none of us would reveal the role".
So I mean that's contained in the statement of Mr Posiwa himself.  So it's quite clear that Dean Farisani was arrested before Reverend Posiwa.  Reverend Posiwa, from page 102, was arrested on the 12th of December 1981, but we don't know the actual date when Dean Farisani was arrested, but it was clearly before Mr Posiwa, because this is what Mr Posiwa himself says in the statement.  So it's impossible then that information received from Mr Posiwa, after his arrest, could have led to the arrest of Mr Farisani.  It's just impossible unless somebody had a time machine and went backwards in time, it can't happen.  
	So there must have been some other - well not must have, well we want to know whether there was any other reason, if any other reason existed for the arrest of Dean Farisani because we've heard from Ms Mtanga that it's been put to you that he says that there was no grounds at all.  He believes the only reason why he was arrested was because he had been involved in some political activity in the past, but not specifically linked to the attack on the police station.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I agree with that, but it wasn't clear that he was linked with the bombing.  That is why we first made investigations from the suspects.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So at the time when you arrested Dean Farisani you had no information linking him to the Sibasa Police Station bombing?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: There was no evidence before we could question him.  We just suspected that he might be having evidence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On what grounds did you suspect him of being involved in the Sibasa Police Station bombing?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Sometimes we used to read the files that were in the files, that person was involved in the liberation movements so we realised that he could be involved in assisting the liberation movements, because we see that he is having a file we think he can be linked.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: ...in the bombing of the station.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And as a Security policeman you must have had a number of files of persons around Venda whom you suspected of having links with the liberation movement, is it not so?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: That's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why choose Mr Farisani out of the many people that you suspected of either being associated with the liberation movements, of being members of the liberation movements?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It was not only Dean Farisani.  We also arrested others.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  I further would like to put it to you Mr Managa, that the arrest of Mr Mahamba, whom in your evidence you have said co-operated with you and that is the reason why you didn't torture him, that his arrest also followed Dr Farisani's arrest.  That is Dr Farisani was arrested before Mr Mahamba.  What do you say to this?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I think the first person to be arrested - if I remember it was Mr Mahamba.

MS MTANGA: So do you dispute that Dr Farisani was arrested before Reverend Mahamba?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I am not denying but it's because I am unable to put them clearly, but I think the first person to be arrested was Mr Mahamba, I mean between Farisani and Mahamba.

MS MTANGA: You have also testified that ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you proceed, you have put it to him are you going to lead evidence with regard to that?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.  Reverend Mahamba and Dr Farisani will testify that Dr Farisani was arrested by yourselves before Reverend Mahamba, so the information to arrest Dr Farisani couldn't have come from Reverend Mahamba as you have stated before.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you in a position to put it to him as to what Mr Mahamba was saying when he was arrested?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson Reverend Mahamba was arrested on the 26th of November 1981.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You will note that when you check paragraph 27 on page 47 that's exactly what the witness is saying.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.  Mr Managa do you agree that Dr Farisani was already arrested by the 26th of November?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: On the dates, no, I can't remember.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa are you able to tell this Committee who were the first people you arrested regarding this bomb attack?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: After the bombing there were other people who were detained.

MS MTANGA: Was Dr Farisani amongst them?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes he was one of the people who was arrested.