Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR PIGOU: Chair, perhaps I can help - page 4 of the statement and perhaps we can show this to Mr Richardson, there is a signature which says: "Jerry" on it - perhaps if we can show that to him.

JERRY RICHARDSON: The signature is almost close to mine.

CHAIRPERSON: It's quite important Mr Richardson.
 Can you show him a copy of the particular statement and ...[inaudible] 
Do you remember submitting a statement to Colonel Dempsey?

JERRY RICHARDSON: From 1989 I submitted many statements.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's just a question and I'm sure you'll be able to say: "Yes, I have given Colonel Dempsey a statement", you should be in a position to say that.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Colonel Dempsey once accompanied me to the wedding ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No English translation.

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... No English translation  statement on that particular date - I don't know, what is the date - September 1989?

MR PIGOU: It's the 20th of February and I believe it's the day after Mr Richardson was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date there Mr Semenya?

JERRY RICHARDSON: 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

MR SEMENYA: The date is given as 20 February of '89.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the day on which you were arrested - 20th February 1989?  Do you remember submitting such a statement?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember which date you were arrested on?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was arrested on the 19th of February 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, and then on the 20th ... No English translation.

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the statement or not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, it is from him, it is the one.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the statement from Captain Dempsey?  You see, even the signature that you say is almost like yours, it is yours  and the thumb print is yours as well.

JERRY RICHARDSON: If it's from Captain Dempsey, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the statement Mr Semenya is referring to.

MR SEMENYA: On page 3 of the statement you give an answer at the top of the page and you say
"I live at a certain place - at Winnie Mandela's home since the 25th of December 1988.  I trained the team from January 1986 until June/July of 1986"
And there's something I can't read.
"The players were then arrested by the police, subsequently I did not train them at any time"
Is that correct, that beyond '86 there is no soccer that is played?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And you were no longer a coach?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was still a coach.

MR SEMENYA: No, I mean coach of this team because it's not there the police have arrested all the players?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is so, they were arrested.

MR SEMENYA: In the statement you go and you are asked
"Do you know James Sepei, Stompie"? - Answer: "Yes I know him"
Question: "When did you last see him"? - Answer: "I last saw him on the 3rd of January 1989 at Winnie's home in Diepkloof"
You said this, did you not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is so, I know it.

MR SEMENYA: But when I look at your amnesty application, you would have killed Stompie on the 2nd of January '89?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't have any knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: No, but you killed him so you must know.

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: Was it on the 2nd - you saw him on the 3rd at Mrs Mandela's house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Please repeat your question?  I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: On your amnesty application you say this about Miss Zwane, you say
"She was picked up from Mrs Mandela's house by myself and a person called Killer and we took her to Orlando West where I held her while Killer slit her throat"
Was it you or Killer who slit her throat?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: No, on one version it's you who's doing it, on the other version it's Killer and I want to know which is true?

JERRY RICHARDSON: We are talking about a dead person and about the souls that we took out from a person.

MR SEMENYA: I lost your answer there Sir.

JERRY RICHARDSON: We killed Kuki.

MR SEMENYA: Who slit her throat, is it you or Killer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: It's me.

MR SEMENYA: Now why do you say in your amnesty application it's Killer while you were just holding?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I am telling the Commission and there's truth here in the Commission, this is why I'm admitting to it.

MR SEMENYA: So your amnesty application is untrue, is that right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: There's truth in it for the fact that you referring to it.

MR SEMENYA: Let me read to you what you say to Colonel Hesslinga - and I believe you have told us that he would have been writing what you were telling him correctly, on the first paragraph on page 27 - I'll quote just in the middle of the paragraph
"Jerry also informed us that Shakes who Mrs Mandela's chauffeur or car driver, had also been present at the murder of Kuki"

JERRY RICHARDSON: There is nothing like that.

MR SEMENYA: Why would Colonel Hesslinga say you said it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: And in the same breath it is recorded here
"Jerry also informed me that he had not yet been able to make contact with Mrs Falati but as soon as he should manage to make contact with her, he would arrange for us to meet with her and talk to her"
Did you say that part to the Colonel?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR PIGOU: Sorry Mr Semenya, just for the record - the entries are not Colonel Hesslinga's entries, they're Lieutenant Kruger.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you.
 Would you have said that to Colonel Kruger?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Please repeat it.
MR SEMENYA
"Jerry in addition informed me that he had not yet been able to contact Mrs Falati"
Did you say that to Kruger?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: While speaking about Miss Falati, can I give you this document and ask you whether you're able to recognise it?
 Chairperson, the letter is in Zulu and we have attempted to get it translated and copies made.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to identify the letter?

CHAIRPERSON: Have we got copies here?

JERRY RICHARDSON: You see this one, I'm the one who wrote it in person - I can even take it right inside my pocket.  Things were bad in Pretoria in 1991 when I wrote this letter - I was faced with the death sentence then.

MR SEMENYA: In one of the paragraphs - translated here, you say the following
"I'm penniless and I have nothing, you don't even send people to come and visit me.  What has happened now, no-one comes even my Mrs Xoliswa and my daughter"
I see you are laughing at me.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I'm laughing because that's the letter you reading to me and I'm laughing.  Consider the situation which I was subjected to, how would you write a letter in that condition yourself?

MR SEMENYA: Has the letter been translated correctly? - that's what you're saying.

JERRY RICHARDSON: You see, when you're referring to Falati - talking about Falati and Nomzamu, there is a difference between the two.  I think you have the letters I wrote to Nomzamu in your possession - maybe you are not yet there.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you call Xoliswa
 "My Mrs Xoliswa and my daughter"?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I'm proud of Xoliswa - she just came once at the condensed cell and that's when I wrote the letter with the hope that there will be changes and she'll start visiting me but to no avail.

MR SEMENYA: I'll give it my last shot, why do you describe Miss Xoliswa Falati as
"My Mrs Xoliswa"?

JERRY RICHARDSON: You see Mr Semenya, you know what, when you are chewing your gum you use both gums and you use both cheeks - she visited me when I was faced with death and she was with another girl whom she introduced to me as a comrade and recently she came to Leeuwkop Prison.

MR SEMENYA: Would I be correct or wrong to infer that the letter suggests you had a relationship with Miss Falati?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I really do not know.