Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman that is precisely what I wouldhave like to research.  That accompanied by the fact that in today'sapplication we actually heard that the applicant was having theimpression wrongfully or rightfully that the victims were membersof Inkatha, and the criteria for judging his actions should thatcriteria be a subjective or an objective one?  I am of the viewthat I might come up with some authority that would support thesubmission that I want to make to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matsepe the Committee is appreciative ofthe fact that you stepped into this case at a very late stageand may not have had enough time to consider certain legal aspectsthat might arise.  That being so we are agreeable to afford youan opportunity to hand in your written argument at a later stage,but I think we should fix a time.  You say that it should be afortnight from today?

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What date is that Mr Matsepe?

UNKNOWN: The 9th of August, that is the - Mr Chairmancould we make it the 12th of August in the light of the fact thatthe Friday is a holiday?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  This matter will now be finalisedin as far as the hearing of evidence and argument is concerneduntil after we have considered a written argument from Mr Matsepeand Mr Mpshe, and these have to be handed in by not later thanthe 12th of August 1996.

UNKNOWN: I thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe would you make arrangements aboutadequate to enable you to (tape 11A ends)...his argument in sufficienttime to enable you to respond to it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman that will be done with him,I will arrange that with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  As far as both of you are concernedwe take it that your written submissions will be made availableto us by the 12th of August.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman may I take this opportunity tothank the Commission, the Committee for hearing me and I wishto be excused now because it appears that this is the last ofthe applicants I shall be representing.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.  I thank you for your assistanceMr Matsepe.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman at this point in time I refer theChair and the honourable members of the Committee back to matterno. H that of David Tamsanga Jackson, number H in our bundle andI will then call the wife to the deceased in the matter to thewitness stand Mr Chairman. Her name is Mamokete, M-A-M-O-K-E-T-E,Vivien Dithebe, D-I-T-H-E-B-E.

VIVIEN DITHEBE MAMOKETE: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: May I determine Mrs Dithebeyour husband the deceased, was he a policeman?

MS DITHEBE: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you married to him?

MS DITHEBE: Yes we were married.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When were you married?

MS DITHEBE: In 1989.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you have children with him?

MS DITHEBE: Yes I do have a child with him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you have a child with him?

MS DITHEBE: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How old is that child?

MS DITHEBE: The child is nine years old.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Does this child attend school?

MS DITHEBE: Yes the child attends school.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In which standard is the child?

MS DITHEBE: Standard two.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you work?

MS DITHEBE: I do not work.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before your husband died did you work?

MS DITHEBE: No I did not work.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That means at home you were taken care of byyour husband?

MS DITHEBE: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you say that the child is at school butyou are not working, how do you manage the household?

MS DITHEBE: We are helped by people and so on.  Familymembers do come to our rescue.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want you to explain how do you mean thatrelatives assist you?

MS DITHEBE: As far as the child's schooling is concernedthere is government grants that I receive but it's not enoughto help us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: After the death of your husband did you institutea case or a charge against someone who killed your husband sothat you will be paid?

MS DITHEBE: No I never did so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who buried the deceased?

MS DITHEBE: It was myself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will take it that there were expenses regardingthe funeral or the burial?

MS DITHEBE: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you estimate the cost that you incurredthere for the burial?

MS DITHEBE: It was about 6 000 in costs for the burialthat I incurred.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Including everything with respect to the burialof your husband?

MS DITHEBE: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there anyone who assisted you?

MS DITHEBE: No I was alone.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mrs Dithebe this Committee before you it isestablished by a certain law or Act which refers to reconciliationand the truth.  What are your views with regards to truth andreconciliation?

MS DITHEBE: As far as reconciliation is concerned myselfas a deceased's wife I cannot forgive the killer or the murdererbecause he could not forgive my husband for what he had done. To show that he apologised he bought two quarts for him but thatnever meant a thing.   Based on that I sit here because I heardthat he asked for amnesty.  I would not lie because I would notforgive him.  If my husband was here I would not be strugglingas I am at the moment.  My child would have the warmth of havinga father.  He does not have the love of a father of which he couldhave had would his father be living at this time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let me put it this way Mrs Dithebe if it couldhappen that Tamsanga who killed your husband could come here andmeet you to talk with you and apologise to you how would you takethat matter?

MS DITHEBE: What I am saying is I would not accept hisapology.  I would say so but deep down in me I would not haveforgiven him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is there anything that you want to tell thisCommittee?

MS DITHEBE: To this reconciliation committee what I wouldsay is this, I am not against the aim of this committee but Iam against the killer of my husband.  What I would say is thisat the moment I don't have the love of my husband and my childmisses that too.  There is no forgiveness that I would directto Mr Jackson.  I don't want to lie to the committee even if thecommittee can forgive him but deep down in me I would not forgivehim.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you would like to putto her?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Only a couple ofquestions.  Mrs Dithebe at the time of your husband's death washe politically active?

MS DITHEBE: He never had any interest in politics.

UNKNOWN: No the question is was your husband activelyinvolved in politics at the time of his untimely death?

MS DITHEBE: No.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether your husband had previousconfrontations with Mr Jackson prior to the date of the bad incident,the death?

MS DITHEBE: I do not know of that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Jackson testified yesterday that theprevious day your husband threatened him that he would kill him,do you have your own personal knowledge of this fact?

MS DITHEBE: I don't have such knowledge, even duringthe court trial he never mentioned such a thing.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DE JAGER

JUDGE WILSON: Was this man Jackson a friend of your husband?

MS DITHEBE: He was not a friend to us at all.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you have any profession?

MS DITHEBE: I do not have any profession at all, I amnot working as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe will you at a convenient stage enquireinto whether, in the circumstances of this case, whether she wouldbe entitled to any relief under the Act from the Reparations Committeeand if so you will make a report to that effect.