Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MS HARTLE: So, was there a fire burning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MS HARTLE: All the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: There must have been.

MS HARTLE: My instructions are that on the 10th of May 1985, two days after the incident, Mrs Godolozi senior received a phone call where she was working at the West End Clinic and the import of that discussion was that she would never see her son again and she was also informed that Messrs Fazi, Ngoi and Malgas would by that weekend also be killed and burnt.  Do you have knowledge of that incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I find that news, I know nothing about that.

MS HARTLE: And on the 3rd of June 1985 at approximately 2 a.m. her house was burnt, do you have any knowledge of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I've already said, attacks were launched on Mr Ngoi, Fazi and Mrs Gina's house by AZAPO - this is the information that we had.

MS HARTLE: Why would Mr Godolozi's house be targeted if he was: "off the scene" as it were?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.

MS HARTLE: Did the security branch have anything to do with that fire?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did not and nor do I believe that the security branch was involved.

MS HARTLE: When the families brought the havious caucus applications for their loved ones to be produced, did you discuss with those involved in the operation with you the fact that there was trouble because you had been detected at the airport?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MS HARTLE: Did nobody come back to you and discuss the incident with you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MS HARTLE: Now in relation to this incident and the various other ones in which you were involved, did you agree that there would never be any discussion arising from those incidents - that you would remove it from your memory as it were?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MS HARTLE: How did it happen that you managed to keep these operations secret?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We never discussed it and it was done on a need to know basis.

MS HARTLE: So nobody approached you - neither Mr du Plessis, Mr van Zyl, Mr Lotz, Colonel Snyman - anybody in relation to the incident after there were allegations that you'd been seen at - or rather that they'd seen that the Pebco 3 had been removed or abducted from the airport?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

UNKNOWN: We don't hear the answer, I don't know if there's a problem or whether you just nodded you head.  I did not look up but I did not hear a reply to this last question.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, no discussions were held.

MS HARTLE: Mr Nieuwoudt, there was always a distinct possibility that in  operations of this nature somebody might spill the beans, I want to know how it is that you managed to stop that from happening?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It just did not happen, I don't know.

MS HARTLE: What pressure was brought to bear on your colleagues - I'm thinking particular of Lotz who was at the time very young, what stopped him from spilling the beans?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He could have done it but it did not happen and no pressure was placed on him.

MS HARTLE: Was there any pressure brought to bear on you Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MS HARTLE: Is this something you decided within yourself - there were no constraints placed on you, you decided within yourself that you were not going to ever mention the incident again?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct, I never spoke of it.

UNKNOWN: If you had spoken about it you would have been accused of murder?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Is that the reason why you never spoke of it because you were scared you would be found out?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MS HARTLE: At the time that the three activists were shot, why was only one firearm used?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know, I got the weapon from Captain van Zyl and that's the one we used.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nieuwoudt, a moment ago you made a statement that
"As far as I was concerned, we were fighting a war"
Would you like to explain that in relation to the three deceased?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.  Each one had it's own area and street Committee of which they were in control, they held people's courts and during such hearings sentences were imposed on the people and the necklace methods were used, the resistance actions which originated from this, the killing of policemen, the killing of councillors.
	After the meeting of Langa on the 21st of March, Mr Kinikini was the first city councillor who did not want to resign and who was killed by means of the necklace method and the three deceased played a big role during the intimidation and organisation of the execution of the unrest - that in brief.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just asked him about why one firearm was used.

MS HARTLE: That is correct.
	I'm sorry, can I just hear your response again, why was only one firearm used?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know, there was no discussion - I received the weapon from Captain van Zyl.

MS HARTLE: In the Mthimkhulu matter - perhaps the report might have been incorrect in the press, but I believe that there was a suggestion that your decided virtually on the spur of the moment to use the medication that had been prescribed for yourself which you then administered to those activists to cause them to sleep.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, General van Rensburg told me before we left that I had to take some sleeping substances along and I had some in my possession that I used during my studies - it was prescribed.

MS HARTLE: Is it your belief Mr Nieuwoudt that the elimination of the three did in fact - as you suggest in your motivation
"Contributed to a large decrease in unrest"

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: According to my observation on the ground at that stage it really had an effect with regard to Pebco.

MS HARTLE: And how was it different because I referred yesterday to the Minutes of the GOSS meeting on the 7th of June 1985 where there was a suggestion that perhaps violence was on the increase?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it is correct, that meeting was for the whole of the Eastern Cape and if I refer to a decrease in Port Elizabeth with regard to the unrest that is what I referred to - that is besides the feud between AZAPO and Pebco.

MS HARTLE: I've nothing further, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS HARTLE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt, I refer to page 99 of your application and specifically paragraph 5, there you refer to certain Annexures - that is number 3 that is on page 167, Annexure 4 on page 175 and Annexure 9 on page 208.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Now, these Annexures are copies of Seshaba that was published after the death of the Pebco 3.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, could I just explain?  The publications are published quarterly and events that occurred in the past they then give an update and it is later published.

MR BRINK: Now, this then goes for the Annexures that you refer to
in paragraph 6 of the application?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is true.

MR BRINK: I refer to page 104 of the application, specifically paragraph 13 and that continues up to page 16, that is now the ability of the police or rather the killing of police officials.  I have counted it, of the 18 mentioned there only four we killed before the 8th of May '85?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And on page 107 reference is made of the damage was - also occurred after May '85?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, because at that stage I didn't have any registers for the period before that.

MR BRINK: So, you will agree that the situation in the Eastern Cape definitely improved after May '85?