Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

UNKNOWN: So he must have then, did he run passed you at 
any stage?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I didn't see him run passed me.

UNKNOWN: So is it your evidence that when you came 
outside with Brode and with the other waiter, your brother was not 
there?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: What I think from my view Sir, is that when the 
three of us were standing on the pavement looking up, he must have 
come and stood behind us, therefore I did not see him.  Otherwise, 
believe you me, if he was there, I would have dragged him inside as 
well.

UNKNOWN: So there is the possibility then that he actually 
came out with you but behind you and you didn't see him?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: There is a possibility Sir.

UNKNOWN: And when you turned to go back in and pulled 
Brode in and the other waiter ran in with you, your brother either 
didn't turn back or he turned back, but was shot as he also wanted to 
go in?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct, there is a possibility.  Like I say when 
we first came out, the shots were being fired at us, there is 
definitely no way that he was shooting at them if he was shooting 
behind us.

UNKNOWN: I put it to you that that version of the way you 
are putting it, is not what happened Mr Cerqueira.  I am putting it to 
you that your brother had gone out first, armed with his gun, had 
fired shots in the direction of this car which was coming in his 
direction, in the direction of the robot.
	At that point, or immediately afterwards, you came out and 
that is when you retreated, but by then your brother had already 
been shot.  That is what happened Mr Cerqueira.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, that is not what happened, Mr Arendse.

UNKNOWN: Is it not possible that it could have happened?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, it is not possible.

UNKNOWN: Everything happened quickly?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse - because when I came outside, the 
only people that were standing in front of me was the two waiters.  
The waiters were standing in front of me.  There was no way that my 
brother could have been standing, firing in front of me and me not 
seeing.
	The first shots that were shot at us, was aimed at myself and 
Mr Brode.  Mr Brode got hit on the leg and the shots were on the 
wall, next to Mr Brode's leg.  Surely if my brother was firing and he 
was standing there, I would have seen it.  And surely under those 
conditions, if he was firing at somebody, I wouldn't have even come 
onto the pavement because I would have realised something was 
wrong.

ADV SANDI: Mr Cerqueira, is there  a building opposite the 
Heidelberg Tavern?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Between our restaurant and the Heidelberg, 
opposite, yes, there is.

ADV SANDI: Was that building shot at by the attackers at the 
Tavern?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, it was.

ADV SANDI: Whose building is that, what sort of building is that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Opposite the road from us, directly, is a 
hardware store and they've got storage upstairs and there is a coffee 
shop directly outside the Tavern and there is a restaurant, called the 
Planet, that is downstairs and upstairs.

ADV SANDI: Were there any people at that particular building at 
the time the shooting was taking place?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, there were because the restaurant called 
the Planet is - most of its busy period is in the evening at round 
about that time when the incident happened.

ADV SANDI: Was anyone of them actually hurt or injured?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Not to my knowledge, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, can I put another scenario to you 
as a possibility?  Your brother goes outside before you, with his 
gun, you don't see him, you don't see him, he fires at the attackers 
coming in your direction.
	You don't hear that, because now you are running out and you 
are coming onto the street, onto the pavement, you don't hear that 
and the attackers shoot at him.  And when you come out onto the 
pavement, that is when these shots are fired in your direction, is that 
not a possibility?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No Sir.  Can I just go through what I said 
yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to go through what you've 
already said, you can just say yes or no to that proposition.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, in this case, can I just say something?  Mr 
Arendse, when we heard the popping sounds like I told you 
yesterday my brother was standing behind the counter, on the inside 
of the counter like I mentioned in my statement yesterday.
	I was standing on that side of the counter, when the shots 
were being heard, the waiter walked to the door slowly, I walked to 
the door afterwards, my brother was standing behind that counter.
	When we went onto the pavement, surely if my brother had 
gone first, I would have seen him in front of me?

UNKNOWN: I am sorry, but I mean if you've said that 
yesterday, you said it, but this is the first time that you have put it 
like that according to my recollection.  I am sorry Mr Cerqueira, I 
don't think that is what you've said yesterday or up to now, 
explaining why your brother, according to you, must have come only 
after you, that you saw him standing behind the counter, you were in 
front of the counter and you went out.
	I mean you said, didn't you, you must correct me if I am not 
correct, you said you went to look for him.

MR PRIOR: With respect, that was after the shots.  Mr Chairman, 
may the appropriate place of the record be found, otherwise we are 
going to have a lot of cross-examination on whether it was said or 
not?  It is certainly my recollection and I led him on that and he told 
the Committee with respect where the positions of the people were 
before the popping sounds were heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want the transcript to be played back, is 
that what you are suggesting?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I suggest that in order to avoid the type 
of confusion that seems to be prevalent.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, do you want the transcript to be 
played back of all the cross-examination?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, does Mr Prior agree or doesn't he 
agree that that is the first time certainly, that I hear that Mr 
Cerqueira is saying that his brother stood behind the counter, he 
stood in front of the counter, he ran out first?  I mean, you know, if 
the Committee and Mr Prior tells me that he has said that before 
already, then I will leave it there.  But it is the first time I hear it.

ADV SANDI: Speaking for myself, I cannot locate this particular 
aspect of his evidence in my notes.  But I do have a - I do remember 
him saying that yesterday.  We think that is what he said yesterday.

UNKNOWN: Leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed please.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

UNKNOWN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination of this witness?

MR PRIOR: Just one, just one aspect.  The 
widow of your brother, Mrs Cathy Cerqueira indicated that she 
didn't want to attend these proceedings, is that correct?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And are you aware whether she made a statement?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I am not aware.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.   I have no further questions in re-
examination, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Will you please look at photograph number 22.  
Is that a picture of your restaurant?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Now, there are three, well I can see but there 
are apparently three lines marked "n", do you see those?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And from what I can see in the photograph, two 
of them are bullet marks, well the marks made by bullets on the 
wall?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: One is on the corner of the building, right on 
the corner itself it would seem, and one is on the wall leading to the 
door?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: You said something about I thought, think you 
said something about bullet marks showing the injury to Brode's leg?