Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

CONRAD NKUNA: I heard that from Soli and also when Joe was being attacked, there was no clue because the car was taken, even the police when they got there, they found out that the car was already cleaned up.

ADV PATEL: And you also said that by that time the ANC in the Region was divided into two factions.   On what basis do you make that statement?

CONRAD NKUNA: I say that because the majority of the comrades wanted to know as to who undertook that action.

ADV PATEL: Who or which were the two factions within the ANC at the time?

CONRAD NKUNA: I will say the one that I know is ANC, he is the one that Joe was working for as a Secretary.

ADV PATEL: And which was the other faction?

CONRAD NKUNA: That one had the traitors of the Government of the day then.

ADV PATEL: And do you know any of these persons within the ANC who headed the so-called traitors of the Government of the day?

CONRAD NKUNA: I don't know.  I don't know their names.

ADV PATEL: Let me ask you the question - was Johannes Shabangu in the other faction?

CONRAD NKUNA: I took it like that as we have already heard that he was collaborating with the police.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you take Mr Shabangu to be the leader of the other faction?

CONRAD NKUNA: As I knew him, I thought so because he was the only one I knew.  And I also knew that he was on the other faction.

ADV PATEL: So you knew that Mr Shabangu was with the other faction and the other, other faction was the one that your brother led, is that right?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is right.

ADV PATEL: These were the two factions within the ANC?  Is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: I will say that is correct because the other faction was the State agents and also in the ANC.

ADV PATEL: Is it not possible that the faction that your brother led, could also be called a faction that supported the State and worked with the State?

CONRAD NKUNA: I wouldn't say so, according to my knowledge I had never seen a police coming to Joe or him telling me that he was going to attend a police meeting of some kind, so I wouldn't say that based on that reasoning.

ADV PATEL: In your statement you said the late comrade Chris Hani, was aware about the matter.  On what basis do you make that statement?

CONRAD NKUNA: That I got from Joe.

ADV PATEL: Did you meet the late Chris Hani?

CONRAD NKUNA: I saw him.

ADV PATEL: And you then say on orders from Chris and Joseph Nkuna, the orders to attack Mr Shabangu as you say, from Chris meaning Mr Chris, the late Mr Chris Hani and your brother, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: I am talking about the late Chris Hani.

ADV PATEL: Did the late Chris Hani give orders to attack Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: He did not give the orders to me in person, but while the mission was still under discussion, I found out that he also had a knowledge of some kind with regards to this operation.

ADV PATEL: In your statement you say on orders from comrade Chris and Joseph Nkuna, why do you say on orders from Chris?

CONRAD NKUNA: I knew Chris as a soldier and the people with whom we were planning this mission, were soldiers as well so I knew that the missions were being operated by orders.

ADV PATEL: I am going to refer to page 23 of the judgement in your and your brother's trial and it is paginated page 24 under the section (c), Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What page Mr Patel again?

ADV PATEL: Under section (c), the paginated page is page 24, the typed page of the judgement is page 23.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV PATEL: Mr Chairman, may I proceed, thank you?  I am going to refer to lines 3 and 4 on this page and I will quote from the magistrate's statement where he said, and that is a reference to yourself, you were accused 1.  "He was not an active member, he only participated."   Can you get that?

ADV DE JAGER: He is quoting on page 24 of the numbered pages, line 3 to 4.  "He was however not an active member, but only a normal member.  He did not participate otherwise in the ANC activities."  Do you want to proceed further.

CONRAD NKUNA: I pleaded not guilty when this was on.  All the evidence that I rendered, it was a pure defence as I had pleaded not guilty, but today, it is a different story altogether because I am here to put the truth to the surface and what I have said, is just what happened.

ADV PATEL: Now, at your trial did you say this under oath because this seems to be a summation from the magistrate of the evidence that you gave?  Did you give your evidence in the magistrate's court under oath?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nkuna, isn't it so that in fact you lied under oath when giving evidence in court?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is so, because I had pleaded not guilty.

ADV PATEL: So you did lie in the magistrate's court, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: With regards to my case.

ADV PATEL: Is it not possible that you could have also lied in your statement made in this application form?

CONRAD NKUNA: No, here I was prepared that I am going to put the truth to the surface with regard to this case.

ADV PATEL: I am coming back again when you say on orders from comrade Chris, did the orders to your knowledge, emanate from the late Chris Hani to attack Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: According to my knowledge, this emanated from Derick, Joe and Soli.

ADV PATEL: So why do you say on orders from comrade Chris?

CONRAD NKUNA: What I am saying is they emanated from the three plus Chris Hani.  Soli, Derick, Joe and Chris Hani, the four of them.

ADV PATEL: How do you know that Mr Chris Hani gave the orders to attack Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: This is what was told to me when we were discussing about this mission.

ADV PATEL: Who specifically said this to you, identify the person who told you this?

CONRAD NKUNA: Joe told me that.

ADV PATEL: And did Joe tell you that Mr Chris Hani was specific that Mr Shabangu was a State agent and he had to be eliminated?

CONRAD NKUNA: He told me that what they knew was that there was a mission that had to be undertaken against the State agents.

ADV PATEL: And this particular State agent was Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, because we were discussing about that particular mission of attacking him.

ADV PATEL: Was it only to attack Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, we were talking particularly about the attacking Mr Shabangu.

ADV PATEL: Was it not about attacking other, was the mission not also including the attack on other State agents or suspected State agents?

CONRAD NKUNA: The person that we knew for sure he was a State agent, was Mr Shabangu, so we were discussing about the person we knew for sure.  We could not plan to attack people that we did not know at the time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nkuna, did the two cadres who informed you about the collaboration of Mr Shabangu with the State also tell you of any other agents who had been identified as collaborators?

CONRAD NKUNA: The name that they made mention of was Shabangu only.

ADV PATEL: From the court record, and particularly from the judgement, the other names were Judge Modipani, Jackson Tembo, were they supposed to be attacked as well?

CONRAD NKUNA: I don't have knowledge with regard to that.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Patel, could you kindly assist us.  Where in the court record to they refer to them?

ADV PATEL: It is at page 11, which is the paginated page and the typed page number is page 10 at the bottom, and I think it is the fourth - you've got it, okay.
	Did it matter that other persons who were with Mr Shabangu during the attack, if they got injured or killed?

CONRAD NKUNA: According to our knowledge, we knew that Mr Shabangu was alone in the house, the only occupant of the house.

ADV PATEL: How did you know that Mr Shabangu was the only occupant of the house?

CONRAD NKUNA: At the time when this event took place, I did not know that the people, I knew that he was using the house alone.