Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR VALLY: Your allegations regarding Reverend Paul Verryn came from Katiza Cebekhulu?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR VALLY: Katiza said he lied, Katiza says he lied.

MS FALATI: That's what I've seen that on TV.

MR VALLY: That you had no source of information about Reverend Paul Verryn at all.

MS FALATI: That is why - you know when that thing was shown on TV, it was devastating.

MR VALLY: And you lied in court in the Richardson trial?

MS FALATI: Yes, I had to protect ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: You lied in court at your own trial.

MS FALATI: Yes, for the sake of protecting my leader.   I had to lie to protect, that was our culture - to protect our leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, let's not ...[inaudible]  Could you kindly just confine yourself - at least try to confine yourself to answering the questions, please try and restrain yourself.

MR KUNY: ...[inaudible] may I say, because the issue has been raised by your learned Commissioner regarding the manner in which this witness is answering her questions, the issues that she's being asked about are clearing issues which she feels strongly about.  She is in fact answering the questions put to her, I don't know what she said when she changed over into the vernacular but with respect, she actually is answering the questions put to her and she should be given an opportunity to give ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The point is actually that she does elaborate and sometimes almost is on a platform.

MR KUNY: Well with respect, the questions that are being put to her are being put to her in quite an aggressive manner, if she responds aggressively then perhaps that's not entirely her own ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, she can answer aggressively but she needn't do it at great length.
 Hanif, try and ask your questions in a less aggressive way.

MR VALLY: Do you accept that your actions have directly led to the death of at least one person and severe assaults on three other people?

MS FALATI: I beg your pardon Sir?

MR KUNY: With respect ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: Your actions in making the report to Mrs Winnie Mandela regarding certain allegations at the Methodist Manse has led to the death of Stompie Sepei and severe assaults on at least three other people?

MR KUNY: With respect, Mr Commission, I object to that question.

MS FALATI: No, I would like to answer it please Sir, I would like to answer it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now your witness says she's going to answer the question.

MR KUNY: I'm not then going to stop her.

MS FALATI: You have seen that Katiza was sent by Mrs Mandela to mess up all our lives including my daughter who was under age and went to prison for her, that was all fabricated by Mrs Mandela sent Katiza - you have seen that.  Mrs Mandela is the one who caused the death of Stompie Sepei and the assault of others and to defend the character of Paul Verryn.   You know, messing up all ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Shall I repeat my question Mrs Falati?  Would they have been taken ...[inaudible] to Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house, if you hadn't taken those allegations to Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

MS FALATI: That was not an allegation, I had somebody who had a complaint which was beyond my thinking - you know from a sexuality.  In our African culture, it's something that we do not know.  There's a big thing here which I'm being told Sir and then that thing I had to pass it to my ...[indistinct] because it was beyond the comprehension.

MR VALLY: Would you ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: Lastly, it was discovered that she's the one who sent Katiza - she just makes me mad - my 14 year old child was incarcerated.

CHAIRPERSON: We won't be able to continue with this hearing if you don't try to restrain yourself and confine yourself to answering questions directly without elaborating so much.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I was hoping for some expression of regret in her part which led to the events where Stompie and three other youths were severely assaulted.
 Do you feel any regret for your actions with led to Mr Sepei's death?

MS FALATI: She must feel, she Mrs Mandela must feel.

MR VALLY: I'm asking you the question ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: I'm telling you where to point that question to.

MR VALLY: I'm asking you the question Miss Falati.

MS FALATI: ...[indistinct] also another victim who went to prison for a crime I never committed.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: If you're being asked a question, try to confine yourself to answering that question without elaborating.  If you're not able to answer the question please just say so, tell us that you don't want to or you're not able to.  Do not make a circus out of these hearings because that does not help us in any way -  we endeavour to get the truth, and please do not get emotional about the whole thing.
 You were asked whether you want to ask for forgiveness, you could have just said

<UNKNOWN>: "No, you don't want to".

MS FALATI: I want to ask for forgiveness from Father Paul Verryn, to the public and to the world that I apologise to Father Paul Verryn.  You know, he is a man when you're asking for one mile he takes you two miles, he has ...[indistinct] the African children without expecting something from them, unlike Mrs Mandela who ...[indistinct] those who ...[indistinct] like us and expecting something in return.
 Father Paul Verryn harboured us a destitute and displaced comrades from various places without expecting any gain from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you.

MS FALATI: And I say I'm sorry to Father Paul Verryn and of course to those victims of assaults, brutal assault from - the allegation from Katiza Cebekhulu which Katiza was sent by Mrs Mandela, she has messed up with all our lives.

MR VALLY: You maintained a lie against Reverend Paul Verryn for many years.

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR VALLY: You maintained a lie against Reverend Paul Verryn for many years, he's the person who offered you sanctuary, he offered you a home when you didn't have a home and he could have also been regarded as one of your leaders, yet you were prepared to maintain a lie which would possibly have destroyed his life, why?

MS FALATI: There was no choice, I've told you that when you are dealing with Mrs Mandela, yours in not to reason why, yours is to do and die.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Vally, are we going to get anywhere with this line of cross-examination?  ...[inaudible] very clearly on this, you are trying to get a word of regret for other things out of her and she's not prepared to give it.  She has given a line of regret to Bishop Paul Verryn, I don't think we are going to get anywhere - with great respect.

MR VALLY: I'll restrict my questions then just to a few.
 Regarding the issue of Mr Sitelo Lomo, do you know a Mr John Dube?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR VALLY: John Dube?

MS FALATI: John Dube? No, I don't know about John Dube.

DR BORAINE: Mr John Dube has applied for amnesty for the death of Mr Sitelo Lomo and in his amnesty application - which I don't have with me right now unfortunately, he does not mention the Mandela United Football Club.

MS FALATI: He doesn't mention what?

MR VALLY: The Mandela United Football Club.

MS FALATI: Yes, he mentioned what?

MR VALLY: He says that he was responsible or the death of Mr Sitelo Lomo because he suspected Mr Lomo of being a police informer.

MS FALATI: That particular person - oh, that is Dube.  If you are in a unit ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Is this pure speculation on your part?

MS FALATI: No, it's not, I'm telling you ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Do you know him?

MS FALATI: Let me tell you how ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Do you know him?  You say you don't know him, please I don't want you to go on about this matter.

MS FALATI: I wanted to tell you how you operate when you're in a unit.