Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Can I refer you to your amnesty application that's in the bundle of papers?  Before I do that, what was the target in respect of - or what was the purpose of the mission at the Jacobs' house?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: The objective was that we should get a car which will take us to Transkei and then we knew that Mr Jacobs was a member of the right-wing and therefore the right-wing members were targets of the PAC.  To go there we were supposed to get a car, we must get guns and then again to target the enemy of the PAC and get money so that we will be able to enhance the objectives of the PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What information did you have that supports what you have just said that Mr Jacobs was a member of a right-wing organisation?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Well I didn't have concrete facts to that regard to verify as to whether he was a member but from Monde I learned that Mr Jacobs was a member of the right-wing organisation.  He knew the house.  From where we left we went straight to Mr Jacobs' house which means he had knowledge about him and his place.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now Mr Mofokeng, can I refer you to the bundle of press clippings, that's bundle B and page 1 of that bundle?  Now if you look at page 1 you will see that Mr Jacobs was Chief Executive of a large corporation known as Foodcor, it's a big business.  You didn't know that, did you?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No I did not know, I did not know where he was employed, I knew only that he was a member of the right-wing organisation.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now if you have a look at the second column of that article, it's an article entitled "The Giant of Foodcor" and it's an article written after Mr Jacobs was murdered.   The eighth line of the second column, do you have that?  There's a paragraph and I'm going to read it to you and ask you whether you can dispute this
"Although both roots of Foodcor were predominantly Afrikaans, Mr Jacobs was quick to realign the offspring's corporate culture to fit a changing South Africa.  Foodcor has introduced Black management and social engagement programmes and has established channels of communication between itself and external organisations."
Can you deny that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I would not dispute about what is written, it is the view of that person or the writer.  It's not what Monde told me, that he was a manager of the Foodcorp.  He told me that he was a member of the right-wing organisation.  I was not told what you have just read.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Jacobs was involved in the food industry, he was a prominent businessman in South Africa, he was not involved in politics.  Can you dispute that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I would not dispute of what you're saying.  What I would dispute is that I did not know Mr Jacobs and his movements and his political affiliation.  I was told that he was a member of the right-wing organisation therefore he was an enemy of the PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What investigations did you made to determine whether Mr Jacobs was a member of a right-wing organisation?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking "you" singular or plural?

MR VAN DEN BERG: You singular, Mr Chairperson.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I did not do any investigations or did not verify.  What I wanted was to be trained, militarily.  I had no purpose to investigate.  What I knew is that right-wing members were oppressors of the Black South Africans.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But you had no personal knowledge that Mr Jacobs was a member of a right-wing organisation, none whatsoever?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No I don't have personal knowledge that he's a member of the right-wing organisation.  I don't have evidence, what I know is that Mr Jacobs was a target of the PAC.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When did you first meet Monde Gadebe?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I met him in June 1993.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And were you in regular contact with him from June 1993 onwards?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes we used to meet.  We used to meet together with Kopane.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You heard me put it to your co-applicant that according to two Senior police officers, Gadebe was involved in a series of criminal activities during December and January.  December 1993 and January 1994.  You have no personal knowledge of that, do you?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to the bundle B and page 2?   The third item is an armed robbery which took place at Sterkspruit, do you have personal knowledge of that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No I don't have knowledge.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The fourth item is the murder of two farmers on the 24th December at Van Stadensrus, a Mr Wilkin and Mr Bekker, do you have personal knowledge of that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No I don't.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I presume the only items that you have any personal knowledge of are the murder of Mr Jacobs and the armed robbery of the Stanton family?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you cannot comment, you cannot confirm or deny that Gadebe was involved in other acts of criminality?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I wouldn't say he was involved in criminality activities.  Why I say that, because he was a cadre and in terms of my knowledge and my experience encountered with him, there was a process which was saying we should overthrow the white domination therefore Monde in his political activities was pursuing that objective.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you testified earlier that you were aware of a cease fire or of a moratorium on violence by APLA and the PAC.  Did I understand you correctly?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes, I said so.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And yet after that moratorium, you were involved in two acts of violence?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I want to put it this way, my involvement in these two incidents, I wanted to go for training, I would not be able to go to training without going with Monde, therefore I should do everything which Monde instructed me to do so that I'll be able to go for training.  As the armed struggle was suspended in 1994 according to my knowledge they would not just say let us suspend the armed struggle and then it starts immediately.  I want to make an example that in 1994 there were elections and then the people said apartheid is gone.  I was trying to say therefore, that when they said the armed struggle is suspended, we should lay arms, we did not lay arms immediately when it was announced, it went within stages, step by step until at the end of the day the armed struggle was really suspended in reality therefore was never - never existed in the country thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on this point Mr van den Berg?
	Why did you have such a passion to be trained so late in the day, if I could put it that way, you knew that there was a moratorium or a cease fire, you knew that the elections were a matter of three months away and I'm sure everybody, most people at that stage believed that the elections would certainly be the ending of organised violence between the political movements in the country.   Why then did you have this great passion to be trained so late and at that stage of the political development?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: At the time when I wanted to go for training, my problem was that I did not trust that whites want peace in South Africa.  During the CODESA negotiations and those which came thereafter, the right-wing invaded the World Trade Centre and stopped negotiations there.  It's then that I was convinced that whites are not prepared that there should be peace in South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I look at your amnesty application, that's page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 9(a)iv.  You state there
"On 16 January 1994 I went to Parktown North, No. 8th Avenue to kill Mr Diederick Jacobs because he's white and he belongs to a right-wing organisation."
Do you confirm that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I do.