Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR LAMEY: Well I want to put it to you further Mr Mamasela that the reason and the only probable reason for the assistance of your Askaris was to be present during interrogation when valuable information could come forward which could be followed up or you could be used to identify and verify the correctness of perhaps MK insurgents that are mentioned because that was your sole purpose to identify these people in Port Elizabeth during your stay here.

JOE MAMASELA: I will say that was a very abnormal norm because the usual norm was, if somebody's apprehended as a suspect and they wanted Askaris to identify him we will coverage to that place with a bus or a tour and all Askaris will have a clear view of looking and seeing the suspect and then when they interrogate him we will be helping each other.
	They wouldn't just take two Askaris that came from Botswana.  Myself and Piet Mogoai we came from Botswana and Mr Hashe and others when they go to exile they didn't go to Botswana, the nearest place was Lesotho.  So why take people operating from Botswana to identify Lesotho insurgents, it doesn't make any sense, it devoid of any iota of logic.

MR LAMEY: Were you there more than a week in Port Elizabeth before this happened, the abduction at the airport?

JOE MAMASELA: I will probably say, probably we arrived on the 3rd, yes, I will say we took almost a week, I will say we took almost a week.

MR LAMEY: Not more than a week?

JOE MAMASELA: I wouldn't say whether it's more or when unless we count, me and you now, we can count because I say probably in my opinion, I may be mistaken, we arrived on the 3rd.

MR LAMEY: But you've got a good memory Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, my good memory has nothing to do with forgetfulness, I'm human.  Inside this good memory there's a human being.  So I will probably we arrived on the 3rd, on the 4th we interrogated this - we arrived on the 3rd, on the 4th and the 5th we were told to familiarise ourselves with our environment, it's there in my statement in Afrikaans, you can understand it better, and then on the 6th probably and the 7th we helped and the 8th we helped, for 3 days we helped with the interrogation of this Toto Sithole guy.
	So it's reasonable, it's about maybe a week, almost a week that we were here and we left.

MR LAMEY: Well I want to put it to you further that the version of Mr Mogoai is that he was never at the security branch, only Mr Koole stated that he came there, that's how he came to know Lieutenant Niewoudt, that you purpose in Port Elizabeth was to do patrols and to try and identify MK insurgents and to assist the P.E. branch in that respect and that they never knew about any kidnapping and that they only discovered that that was happening in the course of - in the time after the taking at the airport and during the course of the events on the way and at Post Chalmers.

JOE MAMASELA: I'm tired, I cannot waste the Commission's time with that.  I dealt with that on numerous occasions and I've dealt with it in depth.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you disagree with that version?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I mean Mr Chairman, we are getting nowhere, we are chasing a wild goose here.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, but he's putting it to you and you disagree so you could only say: "I disagree".

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I disagree because I don't want to waste the Commissions' time commenting on that thing.

MR LAMEY: Who had the radio with him when you were in the minibus?

JOE MAMASELA: The two Port Elizabeth security policemen that came into our kombi when we parked at the airport, they were the ones who came with the radio.  They were monitoring this.

MR LAMEY: So Venter and Beeslaar, before that, and Mogoai and Koole, you didn't have a radio in the vehicle?

JOE MAMASELA: No, we didn't have a radio.  We got this radio when we entered the airport.  As we entered two of the security policemen there came to us and they started talking to Venter and they jumped in with this radio and then we parked at an emergency vehicle parking near, that was near the automatic doors of the airport and that's where the monitoring of these people took place with that radio.  We had the radio for the first time when we arrived at the airport, we never had the radio before we came to the airport.

MR LAMEY: And you say Venter and Beeslaar drove, was the whole time in the vehicle from Glen Conner to the airport and from the airport to Post Chalmers?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, they picked us up at Glen Connor at our base.

MR LAMEY: Well, I want to put it to you further that the evidence of Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole was - and surely they'd know Venter and Beeslaar, that they were not in the vehicle.

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not surprised for them to can say that, I'm not surprised.  They're still friends of these masters of theirs.

MR LAMEY: Their version is further that from the airport they proceeded to a certain gravel road near  the airport, can you recall that?

JOE MAMASELA: How can you recall a gravel road near the airport at night?

MR LAMEY: So you deny that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it's a lie.

MR LAMEY: It's a lie?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Were these people, the PEBCO 3 were blindfolded, is that also a lie?

JOE MAMASELA: They were never blindfolded, they were forced to sleep on their stomachs on the floor with guns trained on their heads.  They were never blindfolded, how can you blindfold a men in the middle of the night?  What purpose would that serve on tinted windows of a motor vehicle?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I think I've put everything almost, where the versions of my client differs from that of Mr Mamasela and I've got no further questions.  I just want to, on the previous question of Advocate Sandi, where he asked whether Mr Mogoai said ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute.  Can we have some peace and tranquillity please from the audience, we can't hear what's happening here please.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, just early during the cross-examination Advocate Sandi just asked me a question whether it's not Mr Mogoai's version about the watch that Mr Mamasela took.  If I may refer to page 1209 of the transcript of the evidence, it's under the evidence of Mr Koole that that was stated.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka?

MR BRINK: Sorry Mr Chairman, before Mr Nyoka cross-examines, can we have Captain de Lange's evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, sorry I forgot about that.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a suggestion that we could hear Captain de Lange, is there any objection?  No objection I guess.  Then we can listen to him.
	Mr Mamasela, you can stand down for a while. Please don't go away because we are not going to be very long with Captain de Lange but we don't foresee that we will come back to you before 2 o'clock so if you could be here at 2 o'clock.
WITNESS EXCUSED