Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1999-06-21

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: After other members of the Defence Force left Geroma Building, whilst we were still at that place, we heard gunshots within the area of the parliament. We stayed there. We stayed there for if we were wanted we should be called. We waited there until six, five o'clock to six o'clock. Then I said to my co-driver that we should go to that particular place to find out what was happening. Then we used the truck I was driving.
	When I arrived, I found that members of the Cabinet were taken out of their houses and then they were taken to the stadium including the former president, Chief Lucas Mangope. What was happening at the gate was that those who were coming with government cars, they were taken out.

MR DLAVANE: Now, Mr Modisane, we, the Committee hears that some of these things you indeed did experience them. Do you know if you experienced any means that was taken that failed to resolve these issues other than the action that Mr Pirie told you about, which was a coup on that day?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: As I was a soldier, I did not know as to whether there are other alternative methods to resolve our problems. Because there were elections before this coup, then it is alleged that there was a widespread allegations that Malometsing's party won the elections but the elections were not free and fair. We knew that elections would be able to change the face of the government, because I remember that the Chiboke Party, that is Mangope's party wanted, or lodged a complaint that the election should be, votes should be recounted and that was not allowed. Therefore we have to use the military means to overthrow the government.

MR DLAVANE: Now we know that, and we see it on the documents we have here in front of us that as a result of this action of the 10th February 1988, you were together with your colleagues, were ultimately arrested and you were charged and you were convicted and sentenced. Do you remember how were you sentenced, yourself being Modisane?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, we were convicted and sentenced. I was sentenced eight years in prison.

MR DLAVANE: In the documents before this Committee, there is an extract of the judgement of that day and I note under, I note that when the judge made comments about yourself, Chairperson, it is in page 44, it was after your legal counsel by then had argued on your behalf. The learned judge then made comments to the effect that the, your conduct was consistent and pursuant to the plans and you had the necessary knowledge and you, in a way, associated yourself with what happened. Do you, today, appearing before the Committee seeking an amnesty, do you align yourself with the sentiments as were expressed by the learned judge? That you associated yourself with this occurrence?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: That is page 46, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 46. The second last paragraph.

MR DLAVANE: And that is the reason why you are here today seeking amnesty. Is that correct?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: That is correct. The other reason which I may explain is that after, after I have been released from prison there were no obstacles in terms of my experience because we were released unconditionally. But after some time, things happened which I am not able to achieve because of my criminal record of high treason.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, I know that you touched upon that aspect when giving evidence of what happened actually on that day. But say someone may come and argue before this Committee and say during that time the government, the then government, or the then president of the then government was peacefully running the political administration of the then government. So, there may not have been any reasons why an action that was taken by that time, was to have taken. What will your comment be?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: At that time there was no stability in Bophuthatswana. I will give an example about what happened in Braaklaagte. As I said there was no political stability at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what happened at what place?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Braaklaagte.

MR DLAVANE: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead here.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DLAVANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Do you have any questions to ask?

MR MULLIGAN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Modisane, there were two ladies killed in the complex that morning. Did you know about that?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I heard about it.

MR MULLIGAN: Do you know who killed them?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I've no knowledge. The way in which we make a statement, at the time when they came to parliament, those who were coming to take out the ministers from the houses, people grouped themselves to go to various houses of the ministers. I think people would be able to be identified in terms of those who went to a particular house.

MR MULLIGAN: Do you have any knowledge of who went to Minister Seane's house?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I've no knowledge because at that time I was not there. I only came early in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally go into, yourself, into any house?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: The house which I went to belonged to Mr Holele.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go into the house? Did you enter the premises?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, I went into the house because I was given instructions that we should ...(indistinct) the force. That was around 8 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLIGAN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seabela, do you have any questions.

MR SEABELA: I have no questions, Mr Chairperson.

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, I do. Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Modisane, did you have any firearms on yourself as well?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, I had 9 mm pistol.

MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, from the time period that you had received your instructions, you took a truck containing all the weapons and then you stayed behind. Pirie informed you to stay behind and take care of those weapons. Is that correct?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: How long were you, how long did you take to stay behind when the others went and took part in the operation?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I left around parliament between five and six o'clock.

MS LOCKHAT: I see you made a statement to the magistrate as well as in the court judgement, the judge mentions this on page 44, it's at paragraph 3, at paragraph 4, excuse me, regarding the information. I will just state it. He states that he received information that a certain house a woman was shot dead. He received permission to go to the house and try to remove the body, but he could not do so. Can you just explain to us who that person was, that body that you tried to collect?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I did not know the identity of that woman on that day, because at that time other members of the police went inside there, because they received information that people were shot. At the time I was at the gate. The guards did not allow the police to enter the gate. Then after a while I tried to negotiate with the guards that those people who were shot should be taken care of and then they should be taken out. Either to be taken to Bophelong Hospital and then we did not receive permission to do so and then I did not know the identity of the person who was shot.

MS LOCKHAT: What was your instructions from Pirie? What was your specific duties? Can you just elaborate on that?

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to the ...(intervention)

MS LOCKHAT: In relation to the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: To the whole operation ...

MS LOCKHAT: To the whole operation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to get the body.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: My duty was to drive so that later if there were people who were injured or died, we should be able to load them in that truck.