Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MR NONDULA: Chairperson, that is the evidence of the first applicant then.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Who's going to start?  Mr Wagener, are you ready to - if you have any questions to ask you may proceed.

MR WAGENER: Prior to this incident, what training did you receive in military weapons?

MR NONDULA: The kind of training we received is the normal basic training, rifles, artillery, marching drill, we used to call it topography at that stage.  Okay then it was intelligence, counter-intelligence.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive any training whatsoever in explosives?

MR NONDULA: Yes, engineering, we actually did it, that's it ...(indistinct)

MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?

MR NONDULA: The nature of the training?

MR WAGENER: In explosives.

MR NONDULA: In explosives?

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: You're actually taught to use explosives for sabotage purposes, like normal training any other soldier would get, if I got the question correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this training, this engineering, where did you receive that, Angola or East Germany?

MR NONDULA: In Angola and East Germany, it's an over ...(indistinct) training.

MR WAGENER: During the course of this training, did you ever handle landmines as such?

MR NONDULA: Yes, we did.

MR WAGENER: Did you lie to the criminal court when you testified that you had received no prior training in landmines?

MR NONDULA: I must have lied.

MR WAGENER: Are you asking for amnesty for lying to the Court?

MR NONDULA: I'm asking for amnesty, yes I would say for lying, if I did lie at that stage and also for the fact that the act itself says:  "Let's reconciliate" and I am now on that road.

MR WAGENER: Can you show me where in your written application do you ask for amnesty for lying to the Court?

MR NONDULA: No, I don't know that.

MR WAGENER: Sorry?

MR NONDULA: I'm not aware about it.

MR WAGENER: Before you entered the Republic of South Africa on this specific mission, what were your exact instructions?  Can you please tell us?

MR NONDULA: The exact instructions were to lay landmines along the patrol routes in this vicinity.

MR WAGENER: Were you not supposed to first enter our country merely for purposes of reconnaissance and draw up maps where the military patrols were and then report back to your military headquarters in Zambia?

MR NONDULA: That part did not include this unit at that stage.  The people who were doing reconnaissance, as I said, were Agrippa and Chilies, they were the people who did all that and they reported back.

MR WAGENER: When was that reconnaissance done?

MR NONDULA: In 1985, I'm not sure now the actual months, it must be somewhere September or August, somewhere there, because reconnaissance is something that carries on, it's a continuous thing.

MR WAGENER: Are you personally aware of what you're saying now?  Are you personally aware of this prior reconnaissance?

MR NONDULA: Am I aware of?

MR WAGENER: This prior reconnaissance of the other terrorists?

MR NONDULA: I am aware ...

MR WAGENER: Sorry, sorry, sorry, who was that speaking now?  Who was that speaking to you next to you?

MR NONDULA: My comrade.

MR WAGENER: What did he say?  What did you friend say?

MR NONDULA: I didn't hear him, I was answering you.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, when a witness is giving evidence, if he could not be spoken to.  Sorry, the question that you asked Mr Wagener, was were you aware of the reconnaissance mentioned by you done by Agrippa and Chilies, at what stage are you talking about?  At the time it was done or when?

MR WAGENER: Ja, before the group of twelve left for South Africa.

MR KOOPEDI: And Chairperson, excuse me, if I may just interpose.  I believe the reaction that we got here, stems from the fact that my Learned Friend is referring to people as terrorists and from where I come from and from where these applicants come from, that's an insult Chairperson and if my Learned Friend would refrain from such references, I do not think we will have bursts.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Wagener, if you can just respect that.

MR WAGENER: Were you present in Zambia or Zimbabwe, or wherever, when these two friends of your reported back about their reconnaissance?

MR NONDULA: The briefing that we were given was from the fact that an information has been gathered as to the military activities within the area and the persons therefore who were going to be our Commanders were in the know, so it was made known to us that they are capable, they know the area, they will be able to lead us to the area, so in that sense, yes.

MR WAGENER: Did they show you any maps perhaps, that they drew up where the roads were supposed - or the roads where the mines were to be laid?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: And were those the roads where the mines were in fact laid on your mission?

MR NONDULA: I may not necessarily be accurate on that information, but to the best of my knowledge we did manage to plant them where we were supposed to plant them.

MR WAGENER: ;   Will it surprise you to know that you and your friends planted a landmine that eventually killed the family of my client, that you planted that on a farm where no military vehicle or no military patrol has ever been before this incident?

MR NONDULA: As I've said earlier, no knowledge in as far as I am concerned, was actually targeted towards a particular family or particular person, the operation in total was to the best of my knowledge, a military operation in a military area.

MR WAGENER: Well, I put it to you that you planted a mine on a farm on a road where there's never ever been a military vehicle whatsoever prior to this incident, what do you say about that?

MR NONDULA: All I would say about that is in as far as I was concerned at that stage, people who were in the vicinity, were regarded as military personnel and I can assure you, patrols in the area by military vehicles were there.  As to whether at that particular point in time it was not, that does not concern me at this stage, it didn't concern me even then.

MR WAGENER: I want to come back.  Can you deny that this landmine was laid on a farm where there's never been any military patrols?  It was a holiday farm.

MR NONDULA: I know nothing about a holiday farm, all I know is the area in itself is a military area, that's all I can answer to that question, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Why do you say that?

MR NONDULA: I was in the area myself, I did see patrols at some point.  I did see patrols of military vehicles in the area and the debriefing, as I've said earlier, was and I believed in that also, was that the first echelon of defence was composed of the Commandos who were along the border areas of South Africa, not necessarily in Messina, but of South Africa and that is the job that they did.

MR WAGENER: This farmer on whose farm you planted the specific mine that killed my client's family, was he a member of the Commandos?

MR NONDULA: I would believe so.

MR WAGENER: Well, I put it to you he was not.

MR NONDULA: I didn't know.

MR WAGENER: He was not even resident on that farm.

MR NONDULA: I didn't know even that.

MR WAGENER: He merely occasionally visited this farm, can you deny that?

MR NONDULA: I don't know about it.

MR WAGENER: Well, if you can accept what I've just said, that this was a person staying in another part of our country and this is merely his holiday farm, he's not a member of the Commandos, there's no military patrols whatsoever on his farm, on what basis do you say this farm is part of a military zone?

MR NONDULA: On the basis that this is Soutpansberg Military area and according to my briefing which I believed completely, that personnel in this area were actually military personnel and it is only on that basis that I acted with a clear conscience, if I may say so.