Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

COL LOOTS: Mr Chair, it might be the case, but I cannot give you an honest answer to that. If you could allow me just to tell you that above and beyond my duty as unit commander of Unit B, I also had other above and beyond duties.  Like the total administration of the security emergency regulations for Northern Transvaal and also for KwaNdebele, and that brought about tremendous emotional, spiritual and physical tension on me, and I think in that atmosphere of physical and psychological tension, things that have happened 10 years ago got vaguer and vaguer in my memory. It is not that I do not want to help you, but certain things just faded. I do not have clarity about them any more.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But it would be safe, wouldn't it, it would be safe to accept, as indeed common sense would dictate, that you wouldn't just come into your office and say well, there is a certain Ngo, take him into your unit.  He would have had to motivate, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to you.

COL LOOTS: That is correct.  That is why I cannot tell you he did do it, but we have to assume that such a discussion could have taken place.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, in all probabilities we can accept that it did happen.

COL LOOTS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Otherwise I cannot understand how you would just go along to the extent of saying well, call him in.

COL LOOTS: Of course, I understand what you are saying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you say you don't remember as to whether he motivated. I suppose even less so, as to what his motivation, what sort of facts he placed before you in the form of motivation.

COL LOOTS: I can honestly not answer that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In fact, it seems to me that you are also not able to recall details of conversations with Ngo about his previous activities in Bloemfontein. On that aspect too you are not able to remember.

COL LOOTS: Not everything.  You are correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, what is it of importance that you can remember about him, what he told you about himself, when you interviewed him, when you became impressed with him?  What is it of importance that you remember?

COL LOOTS: His political insight, Chairman, on the events of that time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I understand you, but what are the facts that he placed before you, out of which that political insight emanated?

COL LOOTS: Mr Chair, I testified yesterday, what I could remember or what I can remember, is that he showed a certain insight and knowledge of the activities of the UDF as an umbrella organisation and also the affiliates.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Those were matters of public knowledge to everybody, I told you yesterday, but let's leave it there. I am going to ask you a question.  Did not Mr Bokaba come to you and say here is a gentlemen who was attached to the security branch in Bloemfontein; they have used him in many operations, amongst which were the bombings of houses, the  clinic of Mrs Mandela, we can use him here in Mamelodi; he can do the same thing?  He has done these things before?

COL LOOTS: I think if it had been put to me by Bokaba, as you now put it to me, then I believe I would have remembered it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you remember nothing?

COL LOOTS: No.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Virtually nothing, Sir.

COL LOOTS: I said that some of the things have faded, but what you put to me now, is something I think one would remember.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Adding to what my Brother has just put to you, you have told us and I think we all appreciate how busy you were at the time and what tensions you operated under.  Yet, you told Bokaba to bring this man in and you devoted half-an-hour to him.  So it must have been, you must have felt that there was a great deal to be got from this, that it was worth spending the time.

COL LOOTS: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will be very short.  Colonel, if you, when the interview took place with Mr Ngo, if you made any enquiries or if you called Shaw, would it have had any effect on the application of Mr Ngo, would there have been anything in it for somebody?

COL LOOTS: I am not sure I understand the gist of the question?

MR DU PLESSIS: What I am asking, is if during the interview with Mr Ngo, you immediately afterwards made enquiries, for example called Shaw or made any other enquiries, would have that any effect on his application or on anything that you had to do?

COL LOOTS: It would have depended on the report of Shaw, if I had contacted him.

MR DU PLESSIS: This morning hypothetical questions were put to you. I do not like doing this, but I would like to ask you another question on top of that.  If you would have used a person who had not been a member of the security branch, would that have gone that far, hypothetically speaking, that you would have used a person on a daily basis for more than two years, on a continual basis or is the possibility that you would only have used a person in certain single operations?

COL LOOTS: Mr Chair, I think your first statement would be more correct. I would have used him in single operations, if I would have used him at all.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, is there any reason why you would have applied for other incidence that you have applied for, other serious incidence, that you would apply for amnesty for that, but why you would not have included this kind of incident if you were involved?

COL LOOTS: There is no reason whatsoever.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Colonel, I also want to put it to you, that at this stage there is still time to put in more amnesty applications.  Is there any reason why, if you had been involved, you would not do so, why you would not apply now? Is there any reason why you would not want to apply at this stage for amnesty?

COL LOOTS: No reason whatsoever.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Except, that you may perjure yourself, haven't you denied this under oath, recently?

COL LOOTS: I have denied it, Mr Chair, I did deny it. I am not going to apply for amnesty for any one of these incidents in which Mr Ngo is implicated. I am not, I do not intend doing that.

ADV DE JAGER: Why will you not apply?

COL LOOTS: I have not been involved in that at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You notice that the entry that was referred to by Mr Memani, is that which says that Mr Ngo was transferred to Hammanskraal. You remember that entry?

COL LOOTS: That's correct, the date was May 1987.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And that you are denying vehemently that he was ever transferred to Hammanskraal from Unit 19?

COL LOOTS: No, I did not put it like that.  I said that according to the record, according to the SAP69, Mr Chairman, it is verified that the man was transferred to Hammanskraal, but I cannot comment on whether or not he had been transferred. I said that I had no control over his movements. I didn't have any knowledge.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That he was in fact ever ...

COL LOOTS: Yes, yes, Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If what he says ... (intervention).

COL LOOTS: I was present when he said that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That he was never transferred to Hammanskraal, that would be a very strange entry.

COL LOOTS: I agree with you, there must be some sort of an explanation for that, I do agree.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And his own explanation though is that in fact that is when he went to your unit.

COL LOOTS: Yes, that's what he testified. I was present when he testified that.