Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Just a brief follow-up on this. The difficulty that I for one has, is that these kind of statements are being given to us all through your documentation about this kind of influence to re-direct the target from a legitimate to an illegitimate target, but the police as an amorph entity is being mentioned, never the names, so it's exceptionally difficult for us to check and control this and we have to go with the statement. Is there any way that you can help us with any of the so-called "false flag" or this type of operation to give us names through your operatives. Surely they must have told you who they dealt with?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mac Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: To the extent that it would be possible on particular cases we will seek to help the Commission. Our problem is that we have given, for example, the document dealing with the National Security Management System and even their structure after 1990 which continued. We are aware of the various arms, sometimes we are not aware of who were particular people manning those particular arms, but otherwise we also have some information on that. So we have tended to feel that we need to be cautious on this matter. We want to be sure that what we put on record we can verify. And we will make every effort, Chairperson, to verify anything that you bring to our attention.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hlengiwe Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson. I just want to check one thing. In your latest submission, page 14, 15 in particular we get quite a number of abstracts from your leadership coming out of the conference whereby a resolution was taken to engage in an armed struggle, but are there documents which will assist us with the policies which you formulated so as to be able to see whether they were monitoring mechanisms, controls, real policies besides what is said here, the statements which were made through the media and so on.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Can we just have the reference, the page number?

CHAIRPERSON: 15, 1-5.

MS MKHIZE: There is an abstract from O R Tambo, right on top and Chris Hani in the beginning, it's like you had quite a number of conferences, but we would like to hear more about your policies, actual policies which were put in place.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson we have submitted a set of documents commencing from the Umkhonto Manifesto. There is one document that we have not submitted but which is on Internet because we have drawn it to your attention, the famous Green Book, so that too is available. So all the documents, conference resolutions etc, even of Kabwe, are available, and we have given all that we could give. Where we have had a gap we have said so, that this material has not been available, but I think we have given all that.
Now when you refer to Chris Hani's broadcast obviously that would be a typescript from a broadcast. As for President Tambo's statement again it was at a press conference so there's a record of that. So all those - and if there's any particular document that the Commission feels is missing we would make an effort to cooperate in finding that. And some are of course in the archives at Fort Hare, but we will be prepared to look for those documents, any particular one that interests the Commission. We think we have submitted all the basic documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Hanif...

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop. Mr Zuma it's interesting you advised us that you found out about that "false flag" operation because we have had a request from a family who has come to us, the son, his parents Anamali Daya(?) and Lelaviti Rangasami(?) were killed in a bomb blast in the Esplanade in Durban on the 3rd of April 1994 and we've been specifically asked to give them some information as to who was responsible for that bomb blast. So if, not now, but maybe as soon as possible give us further information we would like to forward this to the family.
I want to move on to what falls classicly under the section of the Geneva Protocol which states,
"Those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective..."
and I'm talking here about landmines. Landmines were planted in rural areas and according to the figures we have and the evidence you have given before the Commission, by far the majority of the people who were injured and killed were civilians. How does the ANC justify the usage of landmines on public roads in view of its having signed the Geneva Protocol?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Modise.

MR MODISE: Landmines were used in areas that were extensively patrolled by the South African Defence Force and also by the area protection units commonly known by the term "Commandos". Most of those operations, mine-laying operations were in the border areas, the areas that were patrolled very, very effectively. I think it is common knowledge to the Commission here that part of the fence was electrified and in most instances it was on the lethal mode and there were gaps, and where they didn't have the fence that's where most of the patrolling took place. The idea was to try and impede, reduce the intensity of these patrols.
There was, however, another landmine that was placed in Mamelodi. That was very deep into the country. The cadres carried out extensive reconnaissance. They actually studied the movements of the caspir and they laid their mines and the caspir was hit. So basically the idea was to try and reduce the intensity of the patrolling because those patrols had also resulted in the killing of a number of cadres who were getting into the country.
I must also point out most of the casualties that were publicised were civilian casualties. The caspir was reported because it was in the township, it could be seen by everybody. The military vehicles that were used on the border, many of them, casualties there have not been reported.
Yes, the African National Congress realised that after the few incidents where civilians were caught the President called us in and asked us to put a stop to this method of operation. I gave the instructions to all our forces to stop using the landmines. This was done out of the problems that were created by the mine because sometimes though the mines were directed at military personnel, particularly in the areas which they frequented civilians were also caught. The African National Congress, out of its humane policy, ordered us to put a stop to this. Though the cadres that we were sending in through those areas suffered casualties and sometimes those who were caught were terribly brutalised.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maharaj.