Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Can you please repeat that question?

MR DUKADA: My question to you Mr Shabalala is that was your arrival to Transkei known to the Transkeian police before you could even come?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I think we were known and we were expected because when we got here we got a white man who came with Dandala and others. We were expected, they knew in advance that we were coming.

MR DUKADA: Would you say that the top management of the Transkeian police knew about your coming to Transkei?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I did not know there was a place where we were supposed to go and stay and I would not know other things.

CHAIRPERSON: And in addition you met security branch police officers from the Transkei.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was Dandala and this white man and there were three people since who were waiting for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel wants to find out is from your own knowledge do you know whether the top management of the security branch in the Transkei was aware of your visit?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know as to whether they knew.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. And before you came for this operation of Ndondo have you been to Transkei before and conducted anti-terrorism operations?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No this was my first time.

MR DUKADA: Now on the 23rd of September 1985, that is the day before the killing of Batandwa Ndondo had you been to security branch offices in Umtata with Shosha and Bra Mos?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not know. I can't remember any more.

MR DUKADA: You see Mr Shabalala there is something which I am getting confused with the trend of the evidence given by you and Mr Dandala. At page 8 of the bundle paragraph 9 he says that
"On the 23rd September 1985 he was called upon by Colonel Booi who assigned me to go for a special duty at Barkley East to assist members of the civilian South African Police. He informed me that Constable Booi was already at Barkley East. I could not refuse the assignment because in terms of the police standing orders it is a misconduct for a policeman to disobey the instructions from a superior."
 Then at paragraph 10 he says: -
" Accordingly I packed my clothes on the same day and went to head office where I met Bra Mos, Eric Shabalala and a lot of people in two kombis. I boarded one of the kombis and we proceeded to Barkley East."

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I never met a person called Colonel Booi. I do not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: The point that is being made here is that according to Dandala he met you at the head office and then from the head office all of you then proceeded to Barkley East and we assume the head office referred to here is Umtata. So what counsel wants to find out is; did you go to Umtata as suggested by Dandala in his statement?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I never went to Umtata.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you are moving onto a new point will you indicate so that we can take the lunch adjournment.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman I was just about to get to another point. We can adjourn Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we take the adjournment now and then we can come ...(inaudible)

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ... you are still under oath. Yes Mr Dukada.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: (s.u.o.)

MR DUKADA: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala when you left Barkley East for Nxala it was yourself, Bra Mos, Shosha and Dandala. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And Dandala was also part of the planning which took place at Barkley East about the arrest of Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And did anybody threaten Dandala to be part of the group to go to Nxala and there arrest Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't remember. I don't think there is anybody who threatened him.

MR DUKADA: In fact if I am getting evidence clearly he was with this white person and produced to you the photographs and the list of people to be looked after.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR DUKADA: In fact Dandala and the white gentleman you met at Barkley East offered you the list and photographs of the so-called terrorists which were being looked after in Transkei?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And Dandala knew about the list and photographs.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: He must have known of those photographs and list because he was moving with that white man.

CHAIRPERSON: Well apart from the fact that Dandala was with the white man you have just described do you have any other basis for saying that he must have known about the photographs?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I would not be having any other basis why (...indistinct) he had knowledge.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now did you have some handcuffs on your way to Nxala to assist you in (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) answers that question. Mr Dandala told us that at some point during the journey to Nxala he enquired whether everyone who was in the motor vehicle was a police officer. Did that happen?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you cannot recall could it have happened?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: (... no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at any stage introduced to Mr Dandala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When they got to Barkley East they introduced us to him.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you introduced to Dandala and the other police officer from the Transkei?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When he was introduced to us as a security officer from Transkei who was going to assist us in here in Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Dandala notified about who you are at the same time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No he was not told. No he was not told.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he further told us that during the journey to Nxala the askaris who were present in the motor vehicle told him how they operate and amongst other things they told him that if they go on an operation with an individual and that individual does not take part in that particular operation they would come back and kill that individual.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't agree with that. I did not hear such conversation.

CHAIRPERSON: By the way Dandala was sitting in front of you was he? At a seat in front of you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. And when you were proceeding towards Nxala is it correct that you had some handcuffs to assist you in arresting or in capturing Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes there were handcuffs.

MR DUKADA: And you arrived at Ntsebenza's home where Batandwa was and as you have explained already he after certain discussions got into the minibus.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And did you handcuff him?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No we did not.

MR DUKADA: Did you tell him that he was being arrested?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That we told him that he was under arrest I don't think we did tell him such a thing.

MR DUKADA: It is because you were not going there to arrest him but to abduct him. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And in fact you abducted him and drove away. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes he got into the car and we proceeded with him.

MR DUKADA: Mr Dandala has explained to this Committee that the distance between - you know when you are from the place of Ndondo proceeding to the spot where the shooting occurred you first past the police station. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Because I do not know the area I would not know that there was a police station in that vicinity. I do not know. As the person who knew the place I did not know the police station of the area.

MR DUKADA: Yes but according to the evidence of Dandala the distance between the place where Batandwa was abducted and the police station was about a half a kilometre. You cannot dispute that.