Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: Call your next witness.

MR STRYDOM: I call Mr Khubeka.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just before I start, we have the same problem here with the application not being part of the bundle.   I've handed to the committee members and all of the parties a copy of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Would it be convenient to mark this application... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I'll just locate mine first here.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, chairperson, the last number in the bundle is page 223, and I would ask that this application be added after page 223.   Just to get clarity, I would suggest that the form 1 starts with page 224.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Before I can say anything or comment about anything, I would like to request the audience to listen carefully to what I'll be saying here, because what I'm going to say here, I'm a bit scared, because something happened and I know they also experienced some problems, I would like to request you to listen carefully, and the people who reside at the township with me, they've got to listen carefully, more especially the people that are staying with me in the township.   What I did was very painful even to me, it also affected me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to hear the interpreter?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I've got a problem with my ear, I was assaulted and the bombs also affected my hearing sense, my sense of hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.   Very well, yes, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, chairperson, the suggestion was... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, Mr Khubeka, we've noted your comments, we have noted your opening comments.   Yes, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, chairperson, the form 1, first page, 224, 225 and 226, the annexure to form 1, page 227 and 228, the affidavit 229, 230 and 231, and then the statement concerning gross violations of human rights starts with page 232, and according to how I marked it, the pages will go up to page 252.

MR LAX: Mine goes to 248.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there's got to be a problem somewhere, because mine goes to 248.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it reminds me, chairperson, that the person I asked to make the photostats said that some pages that were just blank pages, were not photostatted, because of the volume of that, so maybe if I can just run through the relevant pages with some relevant detail on them.   It's page 232, the first page, 233 the page that starts with "Truth and Reconciliation", 234 declaration, 235 details of person making statement, 236 is a statement, 237 is a continuation of the statement, 238 a political context, and I'm not sure, the next page there's no notes on the page, maybe that one was not photostatted, the one I have has got "killing" on the right-hand side... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it will be page 8... (intervention).

MR STRYDOM: ...so that's 239.

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 8, it follows on.

MR STRYDOM: Ja.   And 240, according to me, starts with the sentence, "What organisation do you think they belong to or support?", 241 is the page with the serious injury or severe ill-treatment page, and 242, handwritten on the right corner, "They were COSAS(?) of ANC", 243 starts with "torture" on the right-hand... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have that.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, there's nothing... (intervention).

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, looking at the bottom of each page, you'll see there are page numbers, now we're missing pages 12 to 15, we go from 11 to 16, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, these pages, I have them available, there's no relevant information on them, I will ask them to be deleted, so I'll change my numbering to go from 242 and then continue 243 on page 16 of the document.   Thank you, chairperson, so the last page will be 248, I think then everybody's got the same record.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Khubeka, the first document I want to show to you is form 1, and I want you to identify your signature on the last page, that is page 226, is that your signature?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to paragraph 9.4 on page 225.   What is stated here is the following
"I was part of a group of plus-minus 200 residents of Kwamadala Hostel who attacked the Boipatong township on the night of the 17th of June 1992."
Is that a correct statement?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.
MR STRYDOM
"I was armed with an assegai."
Is that correct?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I was in a group with Damara Quonquo."
Is that still correct?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.
MR STRYDOM
"I didn't kill anybody, but I threw a burning tyre into one of their houses.   I never entered houses."
Is that statement a correct one?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, that is not true.

MR STRYDOM: So can you give evidence in this regard, what do you want to say, did you enter houses, did you kill people?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I went into a certain house, the second house, it's where I inserted the burning tyre.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill anybody in the township?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.   I am not sure whether the person died or not.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use your assegai to stab the person?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I used my assegai.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember the evidence given by Richard Dlamini that you stabbed a child in his presence at a certain house?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I agree with that evidence.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any explanation why you gave the wrong information initially when this form 1 was completed?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: What made me not to tell the truth there, I was afraid to tell the truth about the bad things that I did, as you have already mentioned that I killed a child.   Yes, I know very well that I did kill a child, I stabbed the child, but I was scared to tell that in public, to tell the people that I stabbed that child, that is why I mentioned that I'm scared because I might get some threats in the township, I might be attacked because I killed that child.

MR STRYDOM: Now just to get it clear, according to you how many houses did you enter?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Two houses.   The one where I found Mr Richard talking to this child and I stabbed the child and we ran out of the house.   On our way there was this corner house, there was fire but it was not a big - the flame was not so big, I saw a fire, I saw a tyre... (intervention).

ADV SIGODI: Could you speak a bit slowly, because we've got interpretations, so if you speak very fast, we can't get all the interpretation.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Thank you.   I took this tyre and threw it inside this house, in the kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: In paragraph 10(A) of form 1 on page 225, you stated
"I agree that the reasons, as stated in the annexure hereto, state the political objectives sought to be achieved."

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now this annexure, do you understand the contents of this document?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I do understand that.

MR STRYDOM: Was it properly translated to you?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, it was properly translated to me and I understood.

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the contents thereof?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you identify your signature on your affidavit on page 231?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is my signature, I can identify it with my initials, S K.

MR STRYDOM: And this statement was made quite recently, on the 18th day of January this year?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Although I cannot remember the date, I agree, because I can identify my signature.