Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

SHADRACK GOVENDER: Well, I think that it is similar to maybe what could we described as a guerilla attack.  They attack and hit the target and they needed to get away and they needed to leave whatever evidence or thing that would actually make them look suspicious and moreover, they were not pursued by anybody.  They didn't need the weapons any more, because they had finished doing their job.

MR LEWIN: Thank you.  And I mean, the house in Ashton
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
14 S GOVENDER
Park, it was all fairly open at that stage, wasn't it?  I mean Durawall(?) hadn't begun.

SHADRACK GOVENDER: No, no, there was no Durawall on that house at that time.  And if I may mention that it was not the end of it all.  The Ashton Park residence was subsequently bombed to the foundation.  They came one night, but we had evacuated and not living in the house any longer, and put explosives right around the house, and just flattened the house. I think the highest structure that remained in that house couldn't have been longer than 30 centimetres, the length of a ruler.

MR LEWIN: Thank you.  Mrs Gqabi, could I just in finishing, before handing back to the Chair, just ask, there is another family who hasn't had this sort of normal life, which you say you haven't had either.  How do you actually feel about it now?  I mean, you are remarkably calm and collected?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: I may look calm but my heart is bleeding. I never had a normal family when I got married. I hardly stayed with my husband for more than five years and I think I and my children have been psychologically affected, especially my son, who has never recovered.  So what I would like to - I have heard that there are psychologists who look after people who have been affected.  So I would - I don't know if there is any way in which my son can be helped.

MR LEWIN: The best person to answer that is now sitting in the chair, because she is the Chairperson of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to request the Commissioners to ask some questions.  Tom?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Gqabi, where do you live presently?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: I live in Protea Glen, where I am paying a bond.  SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
15 S GOVENDER
When I came back I had no accommodation. I lived at my brother's place with my sister-in-law. So they took me in until Mrs Sinqwe, Bishop and Mrs Sinqwe asked me to use their house in Pimville. That's the house I used until I managed to get a loan, I mean a bond from the Standard Bank, and then I moved. That is where I am now.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In Protea Glen, how do the people around you, your neighbours relate with you?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: They are mostly very young people, all the people who live there are people who moved from their homes in Soweto to get their own houses.  They just regard me as an old lady.  They don't bother me, I don't bother them.  So I don't have problems there with them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But you would say that they don't know this background, your historical background?
(END OF TAPE 3 - SIDE A).
 ... which is quite true, I mean, we came to know Joe or most came to know Joe around '75, '76, because the things could happen and one would perhaps be saying that if quite a number of those people like we have said, those who played a role, in June 16th, you know, perhaps none or how many of those people or how many from that age group do visit you presently?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: Nobody visits me.  Very few people actually come to my house - people, they have just disappeared, except people like Govender here and maybe two others, otherwise all those people I used to, I mean, to mother, I don't see them at all, they have all disappeared.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Because we know that you were in a semi-isolated condition, even before Joe came back from the Island. I think immediate associates or people who used to
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
16 S GOVENDER
come frequently, were perhaps those who were working for the SACC, you know, coming in as they would help you to go to the Island or so.  But now if I understand you well, is you are really in a completely new society.

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: Yes, I am.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And what about church groupings in that area?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: There are no churches there. If I want to go to church I have to travel to - I attend the Anglican Church at - I either go to St Pauls or to Holy Cross in Orlando West. Otherwise there are no church groupings there. There are no churches, it is a completely new area.  No churches, no shopping centres, nothing.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you from those two churches, from those two parishes, do you still, do you have people who still recognise your past?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: There are a few nursing sisters who are now retired, who still remember me, and who know my past, but otherwise also my priest knows my past. Otherwise there is nobody else.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Glenda Wildschut?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Govender, I would just like to ask you a few questions first.  In Mrs Gqabi's statement she indicates that she heard over the radio that her husband had been assassinated.  Can you explain that to us?

SHADRACK GOVENDER: Yes, at the time of - after I discovered what was to be Joe Gqabi's body, because of lack of maybe confidence or some suspicions in the regular police services that existed in Zimbabwe, for the reasons that I explained earlier on, I used the channel that Joe Gqabi used, of a direct link with the Minister of Security at that time,
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
17 S GOVENDER
(indistinct).  From the time that I reported the matter and from the time that we got to the house and actually they certified that he was dead, it was a matter of high security, high state security in Zimbabwe. Everything else was embargoed.  We were embargoed from talking to reporters, even myself. I was inundated by reporters who wanted to find, to get a story from me.  It was a security thing. I did not - I was also removed from the house.  I did not see the body of Comrade Joe being taken out of the house. I was kept overnight at the safe house in Harare until we left for Lusaka that day.  It was after, I think the BBC might have picked it up after I had been moved to the headquarters of the ANC.  There was no time that, there was no time at that time, you know, in the time period that I could have phoned Mrs Gqabi at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Also you indicated to us that Mr Gqabi at that time, he held a very senior position within the African National Congress.  Wouldn't it have been more appropriate if their senior officials had immediately informed the family?

SHADRACK GOVENDER: I wouldn't be able to comment on their behalf, but if I were to comment directly, personally on what happened. It was my duty to report to the highest organ of the organisation which was the national executive committee of the ANC.  I did that morning early, as soon as we reached Lusaka, I was - we had a meeting with the working committee of the national executive of the ANC, where I reported the matter and the matter was discussed at that brief meeting and the working committee of the national executive of the ANC did take steps to proceed from there. I wouldn't say that I could have been the one to say, report to Mrs Gqabi
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
18 S GOVENDER
and the matter was still being discussed. I had no idea at the time whether they had or they had not yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  In your statement I see here you have the name of Geraldine Fraser.  Are you referring to the one who is the Minister of Welfare and Population Development today?

SHADRACK GOVENDER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Also you indicated that the two of you were treated badly after this incident.  Can you just tell us more, how the investigations went?