Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR MALAN: Maybe you're not hearing my question.  My question is, were the two individuals that you refer to, that have applied for amnesty and you've mentioned their names, were they present at that meeting of the SDU to which you reported what Bulelwa told you about the  meeting in Section F?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They were present sir.

MR MALAN: Did they report anything about the meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: Did they say anything about Bulelwa?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: What did they say Mr Sonti?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said sir, they said that they want volunteers from Block F.  They themselves volunteered.  They were then told that they cannot take part.  This is when Bulelwa disputed everything.  She was called to order as a woman.  They gave me such a report.

MR MALAN: At last question Mr Sonti.  Was there no one in your SDU that had any doubts about the role that Bulelwa played in that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No sir.

MR MALAN: So you're 100% sure about the loyalty of Bulelwa as a comrade to the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: With all her heart sir.  She also collected money for the self defence unit.

MR MALAN: Then the second subject is the subject of the round up - the catching up with the people who killed Bulelwa and burnt the house of Blanko, that night.  The two names that were first given to you were Tusanang and Mokwena, that's the evidence you have.  They were the first people implicated.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: Could it be that Tusanang nor Mokwena were killed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Which people sir?

MR MALAN: Tusanang and Mokwena, they survived, they weren't killed on the 7th of December?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: You're speaking about Mokwena sir but I spoke of Tusanang who killed Bulelwa and Mr Motlokwa already said that Vips and Tusanang killed Bulelwa.  I don't know if Vips' surname is Mokwena, I'm not quite sure about Mokwena.

MR MALAN: Is there one of the youngsters in the Youth League called Mokwena?  Let me leave that.  Let's not pursue that because - let's stay with Tusanang.  The information was that Tusanang killed both Bulelwa and Blanko or he was involved?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MALAN: Why was Tusanang not caught and killed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said, I ask that as - he was with his colleagues.  I wanted his colleagues to know that Tusanang - I have already explained that Tusanang - as we had captured the three of them, Ramabela, Mr Ramabela said that we should capture them.  I did not agree that he should be part of that - or he should be captured.  I asked him to stand outside to explain what happened.  This is when he ran away because he was not inside as the rest of the men that were captured.

MR MALAN: But he was the first suspect mentioned by all.  Why would you not agree that he also be captured?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I have already said sir, before we do anything or before we did anything we had wanted Mr Tusanang to explain what had happened.  This is when he got a chance to run away.

MR MALAN: I have no further question then, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sonti, there's one thing I just want to clear up with you.  You - we all know that the deceased were captured after the murders of Bulelwa and Blanko, isn't it so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is so.

MR MOTATA: And when you captured these people, did you assault them prior to taking them to the community where they had gathered?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No they were not assaulted sir.  We took them as they were.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere in these documents that we have there is a suggestion - there's an allegation that the new SDU was supposed to patrol Blocks A to D and that the old SDU was supposed to patrol F and G Blocks, do you know anything about that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was everyone happy initially with this arrangement?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The community did not agree with this sir.  I have reasons to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the new SDU in fact patrol Blocks A to D?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir it did that.  That is when the conflict arose.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the new SDU patrol Blocks A to D?  Did the old SDU patrol A to D as well or did they confine themselves to E and F?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Mr Chairperson they tried, I think 3 times, that is when the conflict arose.  It was not a conflict as such, it's just that there was a disagreement.  As I am going to explain to you how Moleleki is. Block A, B and C are just divided by a rivulet with the other hostels that are on the other side.
	What would happen there, as Mr Motlokwa described or explained that if somebody would say, one, that person is from Moleleki, however, is the person is hesitant until somebody withdraws their weapon or he withdraws the weapon and shoots, the new self defence unit - or a lot of people were injured in the new self defence unit in Block A for those reasons.
	The cars that belonged to the taxi men were taken from there by the same youth.  As people from Block F were patrolling that side - Block F side where there was an Inkatha stronghold, there was not a lot of people there or cars.  Even bakers that would go to Extension 2 Moleleki were - could the speaker please repeat the last sentence?  Bakers cars would be taken, they would be burnt.  
	There's a bakery from Blue Ribbon that was burnt to ashes.  There were parts of cars that were stolen that were found in the shacks of our colleagues.  Some people were injured.  Some people were murdered.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it because of the continuation of the crime in Block A, B, C and D that the old SDU wanted to have the situation reviewed and allow them to patrol A, B, C, D and E as well?  A, B, C, D, and E as well?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.  As I have already said, the new SDU gained something at the time.  For example, at the bakers, were not of black people, they belonged to white people.  As Mr Motlokwa had already said, they were the targets.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed on the 7th December members of the IFP?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were any of the individuals killed on the 7th of December members of the IFP?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir I will put it that way.  Mr Buthelezi, according to his deeds.  His son as well I'm sure.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I am quite certain that the rest were members of the third force.

CHAIRPERSON: They were not members of the ANC Youth League?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They were just hiding behind that banner.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, to your knowledge, were these individuals killed because, in the case of Buthelezi and his son, they were members of the IFP?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir I agree with that according to my knowledge.  Because he is the one who went about all the havoc in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he killed because of his membership in the IFP?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I think so sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The others, were they killed because they were third force members?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I think so sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?