Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: And did he then tell you that a decision had been taken that the two deceased persons must be eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did he instruct you, request you or approach you to assist?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did he give you time to think about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: What was your attitude, were you willing? Did you agree?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did.

MR BOOYENS: Was this the first time that you were involved in something like this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage was there already a prevailing attitude which you as a junior member would have perceived that elimination of certain persons was an option in some cases?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you declare your willingness to participate in this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Do you then confirm the contents of pages of the application up to pages 48, paragraph 14 of the application?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Were you aware that the commander of the office had been informed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't speak to Colonel Erasmus yourself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR BOOYENS: As far as the planning is concerned - and I'm going to sum this up, it was to abduct the persons, to eliminate them, to leave the motor vehicle near to the Lesotho border and thus create the impression that they would have left the country, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You were involved with the abduction of these two persons near to the Holiday Inn in Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: How did you know that they were going to the Holiday Inn?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I knew through - as I've already mentioned, through information and the monitoring of physical and non-physical informants.

MR BOOYENS: So you know they were going to the Holiday Inn?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You and Mr du Plessis then stopped them near to the Holiday Inn?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were known to both these persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you bring them under the impression that you wished to - or that they should come with you for questioning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You got into the car with them and Captain du Plessis followed you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You drove some distance and at Algoa Park you met Mr van Rensburg?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Just outside Port Elizabeth near to St. Georges Beach, the two deceased and Captain du Plessis got into Captain du Plessis's vehicle and Colonel van Rensburg and the two deceased went by vehicle, you followed in the deceased vehicle, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You went to Post Chalmers, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Can we just deal with something else now, before the time Mr du Plessis told you that when these persons were to be eliminated you had to get something to put them to sleep?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Did you say that you would get hold of a substance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: What did you have in mind?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I had a prescription of a physician which had prescribed sleeping tablets for myself, I'd been using it for studying purposes as I was busy with studies at the moment and I wanted to allow myself some rest and sleep at night and therefore I took these sleeping tablets and I had some in my possession.

MR BOOYENS: Just to give an indication, how strong were these sleeping tablets?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I can remember - and I can't remember the name of the tablets but what I do know Mr Chairperson, is that only half a tablet was needed to put me to sleep immediately.

MR BOOYENS: Surely not immediately?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Well, shortly afterwards.

MR BOOYENS: Did these tablets cause you to sleep?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You took some of these sleeping tablets with you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember if there was a conversation whether you had the sleeping tablets or something to get them to sleep, with you or not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't pertinently remember such a conversation but in the planning phase when we discussed this matter, it was mentioned that everything needed for the operation such as the sleeping tablets and I said I did have sleeping tablets.

MR BOOYENS: Was this part of the part of the plan for you to take diesel with?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have two jerry cans with you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We did.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, they take 50 litres in total?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have these empty jerry cans in your car and did you put them over into their car?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: And along the road, did you fill these containers with diesel?  Can you remember where?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I remember it was at Cradock before we moved out.

MR BOOYENS: You got there quite late at night?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I just want to come back to that, it was at an ordinary filling station, I think I still paid for it out of my own pocket.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, you didn't get it from a police station?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR BOOYENS: So it was a secret operation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You then drove to Post Chalmers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You arrived at night?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: That night the impression may have been created that you wanted to question the persons - the deceased, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you sleep that evening and spend the next day there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: The following evening, did you give the deceased some sleeping tablets?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: How did you so this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was in their coffee that I offered them, I put and overdose of the tablets in the coffee and I gave it to them to drink.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember how many tablets you gave the deceased each?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot be precise but it was more than two or four.

MR BOOYENS: The prescribed dosage was a half a tablet.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: The deceased went to sleep?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They did Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You and Mr van Rensburg - or you, was it you - and Mr van Rensburg carried them out?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr van Rensburg and I carried them out.

MR BOOYENS: Van Rensburg shot the one person, you shot the other?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Afterwards the bodies were placed on some wooden stumps, diesel was put on and they were set alight?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: During the course of the evening, on several occasions  you had to keep the fire going and put on more wood?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: After about six hours their bodies were nearly ash?