Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, it was not my question.  I was asking whether - why did you have to ...?  Now in your application for amnesty you were asked if you were a supporter of any political organisation or liberation movement and you state the name that political organisation AZANU.  Is that correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But you have just told the Committee in your evidence-in-chief that you were recruited to PAC.  Can you tell the Committee about AZANU?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I - after recruitment, I had to belong to a Task Force and that is the AZANU, after being recruited by Makara.

CHAIRPERSON: What was AZANU doing because you say, if I understand you, you correct me that they were a Task Force, what were they doing?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That's where I was taught how to handle firearms and the petrol bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: But  I thought earlier on ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: But correct me, I thought earlier on you said you were not trained, would I be wrong?

BONGANI KHUMALO: You are not wrong, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which is which because now you tell us this Task Force, AZANU, that's where you got the training, or you were told about these bombs and what have you?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, that's where we were given training.  I might have not put it correctly and from the ...(indistinct), I'm sorry for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Or did you understand APLA to be - that you were not trained for APLA, but you were trained for AZANU, because I think your legal representative spoke of APLA.

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, you have it right.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.  Thank you.  You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Now you are saying that you were trained in AZANU how to handle firearms and petrol bombs, am I correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who trained you in AZANU?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was most of the times with Makara.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a specific place where you were trained?  In other words will you go to some area and receive training in these bombs and firearms in AZANU?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, there's a place in Qwaqwa where he took me to and showed me how they worked.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you alone when you were trained?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was the two of us only but he used to come to the meetings so that I could believe that he was one of the PAC, one of the APLA members.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh and then he would take you to each meeting now, because now you belonged to the Task Force.  Which meetings would he take you to?

BONGANI KHUMALO: We used to have a meeting in Phuthaditjhaba with members of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm actually driving at, which organisa-tion because you see why I want clarity is that Mr Mbandazayo asked you specifically and said in your application form you said you belonged to a political organisation and in brackets you said AZANU and you further testified that this AZANU was actually a Task Force, now you now attended meetings.  I say which party organised those meetings?

BONGANI KHUMALO: We used to come together.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you and who because for now I just know about Daniel Makara?  Would you have the meeting, just the two of you?

BONGANI KHUMALO: There were other members of the organisation in Phuthaditjhaba.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, let's get clarity here.  We want you to assist us you see, for now we know you belonged to this political organisation which has become a Task Force.  Are you saying these other people you met and having this meeting were people of the Task Force, AZANU, or what are you saying to us?  We can't follow.  You know just to say ... (indistinct - speaking simultaneously)  Listen, when you say we used to meet under the umbrella of the organisation, you are saying nothing because you must first say:  "This is the organisation and we used to have meetings of this organisation", but for now we know about the Task Force.  Were you meeting under the umbrella of the Task Force?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You made proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Again now, I'll go to paragraph 7(b) of your application.  You were asked the position in which you occupied in whatever organisation, that is AZANU, if any and your answer is that
"My position I was in our organisation was to your understanding what was being ...(indistinct) but the second point was that my position was to protect the community in accordance with instruction from my organisation."
Now can I ask you this, in what capacity were you in AZANU, or what position were you holding in AZANU?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was not in any position.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me assist you.  This is a translation which Mr Mbandazayo is giving you. Your original application, 7(b) they say to you explain any position you held and you come with the first answer
"The position within the organisation was the understanding of what was being published.  Second, my position was to protect the community according to the order of the organisation."
This is what you have written in your handwriting.  Now what you representative is telling you is that this is your translation.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Gentlemen, may you please repeat your question?  I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that will emanate from your legal representative, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let me ask you this before I repeat my question.  Did you write this in your own handwriting?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, Sir, this is my handwriting.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now my question then was that I do not understand what is written that when you are asked in which capacity were you or what position were you holding in your organisation and you said your position was what was being published and then second is that your duty was to protect the community, now can you in your own words, after you have read it, explain to the Committee what did you mean by what is written there?  Paragraph 7(b) in your own handwriting, can you explain to the Committee?

BONGANI KHUMALO: The position that I was at was that of being given instructions.  In other words this was a stormy area, I don't know whether I am giving an explanation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: All in all what you are telling the Committee, you never had any position in AZANU?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: What happened to Mr Makara?  Do you know what happened to him?  Could you tell us perhaps?  Where is he?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I learned that he died in 1998.  That's what I know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, ...(indistinct) I will just proceed with 11 (a).  You were asked
"Was the Act committed in the execution of an order or on behalf of, or with the approval of an organisation, institution, liberation movement, State department or Security Force concern?"
Your answer is that:
"There was a call from political movement to fight this oppression in the entire South Africa, 1990, the orders came from Siabelo Pama."

BONGANI KHUMALO: What you have just read here was given to me by Makar, he told me about Mr Siabelo Pama and this great storm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you know anything about Siabelo Pama yourself?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not have any knowledge about him.

ADV SANDI: Did Daniel Makara say to you he knew Siabelo Pama personally?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, according to his explanation he knew him.

ADV SANDI: When was the last time you spoke with Daniel Makara?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That was on the 23rd.

ADV SANDI: When was that?  Was that February, two days before the attack was carried out?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Did you speak with him at all after that particular date?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Except the - I don't catch your question.

ADV SANDI: Did you speak with Daniel Makara again after the 23rd February 1992?