Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

LEON A MAREE: Well, the address that I got from this lady from the Weekly Mail, I handed it over to Mr Basson and that was the last aspect that I dealt with.  I had nothing further to do with it.

MR P DU PLESSIS: It is so that you deal with this aspect concerning Mr Gavin Evans in your amnesty application that appears or that is then based on the document that was written or submitted in December 1991 and at that stage you were represented by this same legal team as Mr Burger and Basson.

LEON A MAREE: That is correct, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And these documents were all compiled by the same person?

LEON A MAREE: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you also take responsibility for this document?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And is it also so, I'm not going to deal with it in detail, but that there are certain mistakes contained in this document, especially surrounding the question if you would then have gathered information surrounding Mr Gavin Evans or that he was involved in undermining operations against the State?

LEON A MAREE: It was not my task.  It is written there though, but it was not my task.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And then if you then could find evidence that he was involved in undermining operations against the State, that you would then act against him.  Was that the instruction that you were given?

LEON A MAREE: No, it was not the instruction.  It appeared in the application as a mistake.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You've already said that Gavin Evans was unknown to you, but when they gave you instructions to find the address, did you know what organisation he belonged to?

LEON A MAREE: I knew that he was from the ECC and that's what Mr Basson said to me, End Conscription Campaign.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was this organisation known to you?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: This was now independently of any information that you had?

LEON A MAREE: Well, that was from the newspapers and everybody knew about it.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What were the activities of this organisation, was that the destabilisation of the Defence Force?

LEON A MAREE: Well, that was to break down the morale of the Defence Force in that they do not follow orders, that they were called up to serve and they did not.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And to add to this, this whole involvement of the CCB, was this based on any specific political philosophies that you personally followed or supported?

LEON A MAREE: Well, the politics did count yes, I was in the police for 20 years.  I grew up Afrikaans.  I also supported the apartheid Government, although you do not find them anymore, everybody just disappeared overnight.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you are willing to admit it?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: With hindsight you can look back and say that yes, it didn't work, that it was not necessary?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What was your opinion  concerning the Republic of South Africa at that stage?

LEON A MAREE: I saw it in the same light, or because I was involved in the cover things, I saw it in the same way as the Israelis saw their homeland, that it belongs to them and that the sovereignty of it must be protected.

MR P DU PLESSIS: That the Israelis are still doing now today.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, that is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Although we do see today that it's not necessary in this country, that we can live together.

LEON A MAREE: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But at that stage that was your political philosophy, that you wanted to protect the State or the Government and your functions in the CCB, you saw that in the light of the philosophy as you just explained it.  Is that why you were willing to destabilise the enemy of the State of that time?

LEON A MAREE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Plessis.  I see it's exactly 11 o'clock, so it will be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment.  We'll have a 20 minute tea adjournment.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

LEON A MAREE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Maree?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Mr Maree if I understood your evidence correctly, then you were simply involved in the Evans case because you had to find an address?

LEON A MAREE: That is correct.

MR H DU PLESSIS: You do not have any knowledge whether or not it was submitted as a project to the Chairperson and if so, by whom or what was said to him when this was allegedly done?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR H DU PLESSIS: I have nothing further, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: No questions thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini?

MR MARTINI: No questions thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

MR COETZEE: No questions thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

MR VAN ECK: No questions from my side, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Maree, when you had to establish Mr Evans' address, I assume you were aware that the reason you were being called on to perform this task was that it was related to some or other plan to take steps against Mr Evans?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What were the nature of the steps that were likely to be taken?  What had you been told at that stage?

LEON A MAREE: I hadn't been told anything.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But, were you given any file, apart from the photographs that you've referred to?

LEON A MAREE: No, I was not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  So you were ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, if I may just intervene.  Didn't you ever - am I mistaken, I thought you said Mr Basson showed you a document.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, I wasn't given a file, he showed me a document with his address on, that's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  So he showed you a document with his address on it?

LEON A MAREE: Sorry, I beg your pardon, with Gavin Evans' name on it and a photograph.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  What else was on the document?

LEON A MAREE: I can't remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you were aware that steps were to be taken against Mr Evans, but you weren't informed of the detail?

LEON A MAREE: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you would have been aware, given the nature of the CCB's activities, that in all likelihood, those steps would be unlawful?

LEON A MAREE: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So to use the words from your training course, it would have been anything from breaking his windows to eliminating him?

LEON A MAREE: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I take it from your evidence-in-chief that you are quite happy to talk about external activities?

LEON A MAREE: I am.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And it would appear to me that the reason for that is that you are saying "Yes, I was deployed outside of the Republic, but there is nothing which I did outside of the Republic which was illegal.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.  In some European countries, there are operations which I won't talk about.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, because I'm a bit confused.  I distinctly got the impression from your evidence-in-chief that you were being led as a witness who was giving us a summary of the broad spectrum of your activities.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Inside and outside of South Africa.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I didn't hear you say in your evidence-in-chief:  "I'm telling you about some of the things that I'm involved in overseas, but I'm not telling you about certain other things that I'm involved in overseas.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just speak to my client for a moment please?