Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-05-31

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, without wasting the Committee's time, can I just briefly lead him through events because there was a particular sequence of events and I think the killing of the deceased was the last in that sequence. So prior to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Let's cut out all the frills then. Let's get onto the number of the issues.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Jodwana, is it correct that on the 30th of October 1986, some of the victims were taken at OK Bazaars and Mr Bea Vaaltuin was taken from his home. And all of the victims was taken or were taken to a certain house in Grahamstown and they were assaulted there.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What, where is this house?

MR WILLIAMS: In No 1 K Street.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: It is in K Street.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it also correct that they were accused of being informers?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Committee who accused the victims of being informers and why were they accused of being informers.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: It was myself.

MR WILLIAMS: Why were they accused of being informers?

CHAIRPERSON: What did they do that made you think they were informers?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: The reason for that, the reason for me to say Bea Vaaltuin were informers, I used to see them and witnessed that.

MR WILLIAMS: Were you the only person who accused them of being informers?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: People used to see them, people who were resident at Rini at the time used to see them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do what?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: They were seen in police casspirs at Grahamstown, in Grahamstown.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you personally see them?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I did see them. It was not a hearsay but I saw them.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, is it correct that at No 1 K Street the victims were also ordered to eat cow dung and pineapple peels and that Mr Bea was ordered to drink his urine?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: What is it that you said he was forced to drink?

MR WILLIAMS: Urine.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it correct that the victims were then taken to another house?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Where they were assaulted and tied with wire and placed in a shack.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And that that house is located at No 3 P Street, 3 P Street.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it correct that they were later to No 9 P Street, where they were sprayed with Doom?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Committee why were they taken from one house to another?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: The reason for that, the reason for them to be taken to that particular house, it is because we wanted to change the venue so that the police do not get information.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it correct that after No 9 P Street they were then taken to L Street?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: You want to know if they were, if they were further taken to another house? Is that what you want to know?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, let's forget about all these trips. Now where were they finally beaten?

MR WILLIAMS: Were they then taken to Manley Flats?
INTERVENTION FROM THE FLOOR

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed. Where they now at Manley Flats?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Jodwana, is it correct that at Manley Flats the deceased was shot and that the other victims were assaulted?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And thereafter, you .... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Were they assaulted by whips or open hand or what?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: They were being assaulted with knobkierries and wires. Sticks, I beg your pardon. With stones and sticks.

CHAIRPERSON: Interpreter, you said sorry, no sticks. Was that in place of kierries or wires or what?

INTERPRETER: He says they were assaulted with sticks, wires and stones. Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: OK. Carry on.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it correct that after the victims were assaulted there and the deceased was shot there, that you and your co-perpetrators then left the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the deceased die as a result of being shot? Did the deceased die as a result of being shot?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, he died as a result of being shot.

CHAIRPERSON: In your written application we are told that the others would also have been shot had you had more bullets. Is that correct?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it correct that you in fact shot the deceased?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, is it correct that after the victims were assaulted there and shot, that you and your co-perpetrators then left the scene and left the victims behind?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true. We left them there at the scene.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, Mr Jodwana, I am very briefly going to refer you to a few aspects that were raised in the amnesty application. And that is on the translated version of his application page 13, it is stated that "our aim was to change the views of the victims to that of our organisation, so they do not sell us out, but be one and the same as us". Further on on page 14 you say that "my aim was not to hurt anyone, but to meet the political objectives of my organisation, as well as our aims so as to succeed in the struggle". But on page no 12 you say that "it was decided at 2 o'clock that they be killed". Now, how do you reconcile that? How can you change the views of people if it's decided that they should be killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it meant, Mr Williams, that that was the initial intention, and that he himself, personally, did not intend this but he was acting within the scope and interests of his organisation? Had that not been the organisational position, he would not have participated?

MR WILLIAMS: That is in fact my instructions, your Worship, and that was in fact what I tried, what I hoped the accused, the applicant did convey.

CHAIRPERSON: It is rather dangerous to ask a question in the hope that he would give that kind of answer. Isn't it one that you would, in his interest, leave for argument?

MR WILLIAMS: I take the point, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask the question if you are willing to take the risk, but you may get the wrong answer, and then what?

MR WILLIAMS: I'll leave it at that, Mr Chairman. Then the last question is, who gave most of the orders that day?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: You mean most of the instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the one giving the instructions?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Meki gave us the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: The co-accused in the criminal matter?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: No, he was never arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Meki, why was he able to give you instructions? What authority did he have?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: He had authority because he was in the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what rank did he have in the organisation?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: He was a senior member in the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: What organisation?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: That is, ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: In the area of Grahamstown?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, in Grahamstown. We used to get information from him.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he give the orders here in respect of the activity that day.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

DR TSOTSI: Was this a man or a woman?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: He was a man.

DR TSOTSI: Somewhere there is mention of a woman. Maureen, is it Maureen. I'm trying to find it.

MR LAX: No, you're correct. There is mention of a woman called Maureen, it may be an incorrect translation. Page 15, paragraph 11(b).
DISCUSSION ON THE NAME

CHAIRPERSON: Did Meki, or Moke or Maureen or whatever this person's name was, was that the person who gave the order in respect of these incidents that day?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Are you talking about Maureen?

CHAIRPERSON: The person who gave the orders, what is his or her name?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: The name is Meki.