Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Site C.

MR PRIOR: Site C.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

MR PRIOR: And was there any discussion in the vehicle as to what was going to happen?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, the commander of the unit gave orders that Maxeba and I should abandon the car, I had to make sure and report to him that we had abandoned the car - this is how I followed the order.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you weren't - we've heard substantial evidence about people just following the orders without questions, is that correct?  You didn't apply your mind at all whether the orders were correct or whether they affected your safety or security, you just followed them blindly, is that so?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: When you're given orders going to an operation, you're supposed to obey the order, however if you realise that when you get to the target - the place of the target, you are going to put your life and the unit's life in jeopardy you may do something to protect the lives of the members of the unit - that does not mean you are defying an order.

MR PRIOR: You don't understand the question but in any event ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Maybe the interpretation is not correct.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, can I try and help here?  Mr Madasi, I think you've misunderstood the question Mr Prior is trying to put to you.  Mr Prior is not talking about the time when you get to the place, ...[inaudible] where you have to implement the orders that have been given to you, he's talking about the time when orders are given to you.  What is your attitude to those orders, do you simply obey them blindly like a robot, if I can put it that way?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: You do not question orders, this is how I was trained.

MR PRIOR: What would have happened if you had disobeyed the order given by Mr Gqomfa on that evening?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I cannot speculate.  A soldier that defies orders is disciplined, we are a disciplined army.

MR PRIOR: Just tell us simply, what did you think would have happened if you had disobeyed any of the orders you received on that evening?  What was in your mind?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: If I was going to defy the order I would have defied it to comrade Sumiso in the first place, therefore I was not going to defy my commander - head of the unit.

MR PRIOR: So you were not afraid that any punishment would have been affected or any sanction imposed upon you by the command?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think this is taking things very much further Mr Prior, you have heard that disciplinary action of some kind would be taken against anybody who disobeys a military order.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect, it's certainly within the enquiry to understand why he just followed orders blindly, what did he expect would happen if he had desisted from shooting innocent civilians.  He's told us he did what he did on an order which he accepted unreservedly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well now I think that the position is that when he becomes a soldier he knows that he's going to accept orders, that's all there is to it isn't it?  The concept of disobeying an order does not even occur because you've made up your mind that you're going to follow orders blindly.

MR PRIOR: As the Commission pleases.  All right, there's evidence that Mr Gqomfa and Mr Mabala and one other alighted from the vehicle in Khayelitsha, is that so?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Please repeat the question.

MR PRIOR: Who alighted in Khayelitsha from the stolen motor vehicle, the Blue Record?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: When we were going there or coming back?

MR PRIOR: I'm dealing with after the attack.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There were six of us in the car, comrade Luyanda, comrade Zola and comrade Xolani Jantjie, comrade Sibeko - I alighted from the car together with the arms, I then left with comrade Maxeba.  This was in Site C not in Khayelitsha.

MR PRIOR: Is Site C not in Khayelitsha?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was in Site C, I cannot differentiate between Site C and Khayelitsha.  Site C is a squatter camp, Khayelitsha has houses.  I don't know where Khayelitsha starts, begins or ends.

MR PRIOR: And how did they leave the vehicle, did they go on foot or was there another vehicle waiting for them?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We arrived at a secret place, it was a shack - they alighted from the car and entered the shack.

MR PRIOR: With the weapons?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

MR PRIOR: How far did you have to - how far was it to Guguletu where the vehicle was eventually abandoned?  How far did you have to travel to do that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Please repeat the question.

MR PRIOR: How far are you able to say in kilometres or if you're not able to say in kilometres, how long did you have to travel from the spot where you dropped off your comrades at the squatter camp till where you eventually abandoned the vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know how many kilometres it is from Guguletu to Khayelitsha, however from Guguletu to Khayelitsha is quite a distance but you can't say it is a whole lot of kilometres - I did not look at the time as well that it took.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that the vehicle was taken from the owner in Khayelitsha?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Well if it was your intention to see that he got his vehicle back, why did you not simply drop the vehicle off nearby?  Why did you have to travel all the way to Guguletu to abandon the vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I said, it was clear that Maxeba knew people in the area where we abandoned the car, I don't know specifically where but in that area.  We showed respect by leaving the car as was when we took it, that's why we did not damage the car, we were trying to show respect.

MR PRIOR: What happened - just by the by, what happened to the owner's black bag with all his clothing and other personal effects that he had.  He mentioned that at the trial that when he recovered the bag all his personal effects were no longer there, can you say?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We left everything that belonged to the owners there, nobody took anything.

MR PRIOR: And once you had abandoned the vehicle you then - how did you get back to the secret place at the squatter camp in Khayelitsha?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Maxeba went to the people that he knew around there, I travelled through NY1 until I got to the robots, I got public transport towards Mandalay.  When you are in Mandalay you are very close to Khayelitsha, that is how I got there and this is why I could go back to the rest of the comrades to give them a report back about our abandoning the car.

MR PRIOR: That was in the early hours of the morning, is that correct - of the 31st of December?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm not sure what time it was but it was in the morning and early in the morning, there were cars on the road already.

MR PRIOR: Now the person that's been referred to by Mr Arendse, a Mr Bennet Sibaya has made a statement indicating that before midnight on the 30th of December 1993, he was in NY113 Guguletu and near NY115 there were two vehicles in that area that he saw.  One was a dark blue sedan and one was a white vehicle, an Audi and he saw several people - young Black men, there were weapons in their possession and they entered into or some of them at least entered into the white Audi which then drove off.  That Audi had Umtata XA number plates, do you know anything about that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I said that I don't know the streets in Khayelitsha well but I don't agree with this.  It was Maxeba and I who went to leave the car, we did not see any cars there.

MR PRIOR: Can you just tell us - are you able to say in which road you abandoned the Opel vehicle, the blue car?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I heard in court that we'd left it on NY129, this is where the car was found.  I did not know the name of the street but I heard in court that it was NY129.