Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes, I call ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before we were electrically interrupted, you were about to call Mr De Kock?  Right, yes, very well.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  This witness is going to testify in Afrikaans Mr Chairman.
	Mr De Kock, you are the applicant in this matter, is this correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: I just want to discuss your history briefly, it is contained in your application which has been placed before the Committee?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You were born on the 29th of January 1949 in George in the Cape Province?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You are currently serving a prison sentence for several counts of offences which you have been found guilty for and sentenced for?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: The matter for which you are currently applying for amnesty, is that one of the sentences which was given to you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No.

MR HUGO: Your application appears on page 81 until page 144.  Do you confirm this, have you read it, is it true and correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Then I would like to discuss your earlier history and your education which you received in Boksburg and matriculated in 1966?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: In 1967 you underwent military training?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And then in 1968 as a 19 year old young man, you joined the Police Force and underwent the basic training through the Police College in Pretoria?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: In 1968 you then voluntarily joined the Police Counter-Terrorism Unit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And you also undertook several excursions to the then Rhodesia which would last for approximately three to four months each time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: In 1970 you occupied the position of Lieutenant and Station Commander of Ruakana in Ovamboland?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And in 1978 you were appointed as the Station Commander at Oshakati and you were also a member of the Security Police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Then in 1979 you became a founding member of the Koevoet Unit in the former South-West Africa?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Then in 1983 you ended up at Vlakplaas, or at Unit C1, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: In 1985 and more specifically ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, may I just interrupt you for a moment.  Do we have enough headphones here?  And the people down there?  Slow down a bit, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Sir, may I also announce that the Xhosa channel is channel 3.  Xhosa channel is channel 3.

MR HUGO: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I wasn't aware of the fact that I was going too fast.

CHAIRPERSON: You can easily get carried away Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, we reached the stage during 1985 when in July 1985, you took over as the Commander of Vlakplaas or Unit C1?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Then just for the sake of general background, is it correct that on page 89 and further you give the factors of how your political consciousness and feelings were formed and shaped?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Then just to return to Vlakplaas, on page 9 you refer to Gen Coetzee's memorandum in which he set out the purpose and objectives of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Could you tell the Honourable Committee what the apparent reason was which was presented to the public by Gen Coetzee with regard to the use of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the apparent reason was that Vlakplaas would serve as a rehabilitation centre or rehabilitation base for former members of the ANC and the PAC and that these persons would then also be utilised for the identification of ANC and PAC members, whether physical or by means of photographs and then after these former ANC and PAC members had worked for the police, they would then also testify and give evidence in court against their former cohorts who would then have been arrested in the Republic.
	Furthermore they would also be used for the tracing of ANC and PAC members, because it was possible for them as a result of their association in the camps in Angola and Zambia, to physically identify trained members and to then arrest such members.

MR HUGO: That is with regard to the one branch of Vlakplaas.  There was also another aspect to Vlakplaas which Gen Coetzee did not address in his memo?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.  The second agenda of Vlakplaas was to be active and operational and take action against members of these operations whether internal or external.  This would include the neighbouring States and also international States.
	We would then refer to Europe as an example to kidnap members of the ANC and the PAC, to recruit them, or to shoot them and to destroy their facilities.

MR HUGO: Your Commanders, were they aware of these functions which were executed by Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.  With most of these incidents, myself and the members were accompanied by either Brigadiers or Generals or both until the border, the Oshoek Border Post for operations in Swaziland and no such actions could take place in neighbouring States without the approval of the Chief of Section C1 or the Security Chief.

MR HUGO: Is it correct to say that Vlakplaas or C1 was actually the exclusive operational arm of the Security Police in the Security Forces?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, did you ever occupy any place during any meetings or committees which decided about operations which were to be launched, which were involved with the identification of targets?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  The identification of the target would usually take place by means of Section C2.
	I cannot say that it is sister section, it would be a second section of Section C, which would then undertake the interrogation of ANC and PAC members, targets, identify places of residence, routes in neighbouring States, and so forth.
	This Section C2 also shared information with National Intelligence and other Security Branches and also with Military Intelligence by means of a Unit with the acronym Trevits.  TREVITS stood for the counter revolutionary target information centre.  
	It was a group that indicated targets.  They would decide who or what would be the target, and we would then give execution to that request or order.

MR HUGO: Just before we come to the particulars of this incident, just a number of aspects which you addressed in your written statement.
	On page 79 you refer to the political objectives, among others to the indoctrination, the training and the influence, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: On page 105 you state that you are aware that the former State President P.W. Botha protected some of his soldiers in order to prevent criminal prosecution of these soldiers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: On page 110 you refer to the political dogma or concept of total denial which existed within Security circles?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: On page 121 you discuss the situation with regard to the execution of orders and that this was done without asking any question?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: On page 123 with particular relevance to the current application, you discuss the aspects of the cover up of offences, committed by the Security Forces?