Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: When I talk about moving I'm talking about a base.  As I was in my unit in Small Farm during the day and during the night I should be at the bases in Small Farm for anything which would happen unexpectedly, for reinforcement.  That is why I said moved from Small Farm unit to Zone 12 unit.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that has not been the ambit of your evidence, that you operated interchangeably within different units.  That's not been the way your evidence has been led by your Counsel.

JOHN RADEBE: My evidence is that we were helping each other as various units.

CHAIRPERSON: That has not been your evidence sir.  That's not your evidence in chief.  That's not in the evidence when questions were put to you by Members of the Committee for clarification.  That has not been your evidence.

JOHN RADEBE: I think I've not been asked as to whether we were working hand in hand as units within the same township.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence has always been that you were working, you, were a member of a particular unit.  You went on to explain to this Committee the membership within your sub-unit.  You went on to name different persons who belonged to your sub-unit.  Do you recall when you enumerated members of your sub-unit in Zone 12?  You were specific Mr Radebe.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you then say you have not been given an opportunity to explain that you belonged to a number of units?  How could you proceed to explain the membership and the structure of your unit, and the chain of command within your sub-unit, if you did not understand your evidence to be addressing that particular problem?

JOHN RADEBE: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I am telling you that we have not understood your evidence to be to the effect that you were acting within different units at any given time.  We understood your evidence to be saying you belonged to a particular unit at any given moment.  You went on to explain when you were a member of the Small Farm, went on to explain why you left Small Farm.  Your evidence in chief only referred to the fact that there were problems, without specifying the nature of the problem that you had in Small Farm.  And then you said you joined the Zone 12 unit.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you then say you did not understand the questions that were asked of you?

JOHN RADEBE: I understood the questions, but they were not in regard to my movement or a movement of any SDU member in relation to various units.  But immediately we know that there is a particular incident, all of us would go and attend that situation.

CHAIRPERSON: You know your Counsel led you in this regard.  In fact, she introduced her first leading question in ascertaining the structure of command and the structure of your unit by asking you about one Bonga Khumalo, and it was in that instance that you referred to the fact that Bonga Khumalo was a general commander of all units.  That's what you stated.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you, however, were a member of the Zone 12 unit.  I went on to request you to name the members within your unit in Zone 12, and I told you that my question sought to elicit the membership of the Zone 12 unit because that's the unit that you were a member of, and you went on to explain that Mr Fani Abraham Mkhwanazi, Shiya Ntjolo, Gomani, Shakes, and others, whose names you could not remember, were a member of your particular unit, meaning the Zone 12 sub-unit and that you became a member of that unit in 1993.  Wasn't sufficient ground laid for you to explain yourself better, to show that 'though you could have been a member of Zone 12 you also operated in other activities of the other units?

JOHN RADEBE: Not that I would engage in various operations of that particular unit, for example, the Chairperson is, I'm trying to explain that there would be an incident in Zone 2.  They would send somebody, not that they would send somebody to call us, but because we would know, we would go there.

CHAIRPERSON: To do what, if you went there?  If you did not go in to do something, what would you be going there to do?

JOHN RADEBE: For example, the Inkatha IFP hit squad they would use the Ford, the Ford cars.  If we can meet a particular car which may be identified as the one used by the IFP we would attack it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe you may proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Just a clarification Mr Radebe before I move to the next aspect.  I just want to find out.  You said you were a senior commander to Mr Mkhwanazi.  Was this now before or after you had changed from Small Farm unit to Zone 12 unit?  Was it before or after you had changed?

JOHN RADEBE: When I arrived and joined the SDU in Zone 12 I became his senior.  When I was in Small Farm I would not give him commands.

MS THABETHE: So now between the two versions that you've given as to when you changed, which one, which one are you sticking with?  Was it before or after Hapile Ndumo was killed?

JOHN RADEBE: I would maintain the one which I said is before, this is correct, because I'm making mistakes about the months.  I'm confusing the months because I'm not exactly sure in which month.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Thabethe can I just clear up something here.  It is not clear to me what the position was in regard to seniority.  What was your rank in Small Farm?  Where were you in seniority, in the Small Farm unit?

JOHN RADEBE: I was just an ordinary member of the unit.

ADV BOSMAN: So how did it come about that you got promoted in the Zone 12 unit?

JOHN RADEBE: A few weeks before I left Small Farm, that is when I received my underground military training in Sasolburg.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you then saying that you were promoted in Zone 12 because you had in the meantime undergone training as underground?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR LAX: Now I'm totally confused.  Your evidence in chief was when you were being, you weren't actually led on this issue but you expanded on it yourself, on the issue of training and so on, and your evidence was very clear.  That you were a member of Small Farms, then you went to Zone 12, then after Zone 12 you went to Sasolburg, and it was there you got your underground training.  Now you're saying you got your  underground training while you were at Small Farms.  Which one, what is the true version now?

JOHN RADEBE: In those weeks I was attending some training because we felt that I'd go to the underground training without understanding, so I had orientation before.  That is why I saying I received training after.

MR LAX: So now you're saying you had two lots of underground training, one when you were at Small Farms, and one after you'd gone to Sasolburg much later.

JOHN RADEBE: Whilst I was in Small Farm I was attending some orientation courses in Sasolburg about the real training.  So that I would understand first before I undergo the real training.  The after I went to Sasol to do the real underground training.

MR LAX: Well your evidence now has just been that you got your underground training while you were at Small Farms.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Well please explain to us, which version do you now want us to accept as your evidence?  Because we now have three different versions.  Firstly you went for your underground training after you left Zone 12 and went to Sasolburg.  Secondly we have you went for your underground training when you were at Small Farms.  And now thirdly in an attempt to explain yourself, you went for a sort of pre-training, and initiation training to prepare you for your underground training later.