Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Mr Chair, these questions sometimes it must be procedural because I can't understand very clear if you are referring to comrade meaning somebody who is destroying or meaning somebody who is a close friend to you, sharing ideas then I think then Mr Chair I will respond on that.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Ntuli you can respond any which way you want.  Any which way you feel is appropriate because in your statement you actually speak about Mbokoto and you speak
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
6 NTULI
about yourself as opposing Mbokoto and wanting to fight Mbokoto.  And the reason I ask the question is because the way this conflict has been posed is that on the one side of the conflict there were the comrades who were fighting against Mbokoto and its ideas, on the other side was Mbokoto who were fighting against the comrades and there were raids and abductions and people being tortured.  So what I was trying to get at is in this conflict did you see yourself as on one side of this conflict, did you see yourself of involved in this conflict in any particular way as part of one of the groups or organisations involved in this conflict?

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Thanks Mr Chair.  Now I can respond.  We were just an ordinary committee that we understand fundamentally that human right violation it is very much unconstitutional and therefore the way Mbokoto did against ourself it was absolutely rotten so therefore that particular committee was not against the properties of Mbokoto because the property has done nothing to the community at large but we said what is wrong with Mbokoto because we said if we can sit down with it and discuss and get our differences I think at the end of the day there will be agreement between the community and that particular brutal committee or brutal group.

RUSSELL ALLY: Is it true, Mr Ntuli, is it true though that property of people who were considered to be members of Mbokoto was destroyed, that businesses of Mbokoto members were burned, that some people who were believed to be Mbokoto were necklaced?  Were those things happening?

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Mbokoto implemented a certain strategy wherein even Mbokoto burned themself with their businesses and then in turn accusing the youth that the youth was busy
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
7 NTULI
destroying their properties.  That is their strategy that they used in those particular years.

RUSSELL ALLY: I just want to understand very clearly what you are saying now.  You are saying that Mbokoto burnt their own properties. Are you saying that Mbokoto necklaced themselves and that they did this to implicate the comrades and the y youth?  Is that what you are actually saying, that Mbokoto did all of these things to themselves?

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Mr Chair, I think to say that Mbokoto has been necklaced what has happened against Mbokoto I don't know nothing.  So it is upon their tremendous ranks to think that who necklaced them but myself or over my side I don't know nothing.

RUSSELL ALLY: The reason that I am asking this question and I think that the audience also needs to understand this very, very clearly, that one of the main tasks of the Truth Commission in these hearings is to try and understand the conflicts that took place in the past.  All of us have political positions, political sympathies, we all have our own political views. Within the Commission though it is important for us to try and get at the nature of the conflict without taking sides on the nature of the political issues involved.  That is a personal and a private matter for individuals.  Within the Commission it is necessary for us to understand this conflict in all its aspects from all sides, and that is the reason that I was asking you those questions.  Not in an attempt to say which political position was right and which political position was wrong.  But to try and get as accurate a picture of what was happening as possible.  Now we have heard testimony that people who were perceived to be members of Mbokoto yesterday
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
8 NTULI
and the day before speak about property being destroyed, speak about people being necklaced and implicate youth and implicate comrades in those activities.  Now you spoke about yourself as being involved in a committee as showing some understanding of the conflict.  Now if you don't know anything about who was doing that to Mbokoto then that is accepted.  You obviously can only answer on what you know about it.  But I asked you a question very directly about the Mbokoto necklacing and the Mbokoto destruction of property and you said to me that in your understanding it was Mbokoto itself who was doing that.  Now I want to come back to that and I want to know whether that is your response or is your response that you don't know who was doing those things to Mbokoto?

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Yes.  Everything that maybe has been already presented by Mbokoto claiming those necklacing system, everything that is claimed here, I don't know nothing up to so far about that type of an incident but as I think I have already made a statement that that is the truth as has been written behind myself saying truth, that is the road to reconciliation.  I think I cannot respond to any questions which may be it will be some kind of incriminating questions remained as incriminating answers to me.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, we respect your right not to answer certain questions.   Thank you.

MR MALAN: Mr Ntuli, may I just put to you a few things.  I must tell you that the Act says we must be victim friendly in conducting these hearings.  In other words we accept that the witnesses are bona fide, that they are telling things the way they see it.  But it is very difficult if the Commissioners and the audience are being played with in the
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
9 NTULI
sense that you responded to some of the questions where you later came back to Mr Ally saying that you are not going to respond to questions that may incriminate yourself.  To that extent we may seek an opportunity to do that in camera as we have talked earlier in the week with another witness to get that information and to see whether you would help us.   But I want to point out to you that you said in your statement that you were a member of the UDF. You said in your statement that your organisation's programme of action was to fight the Mbokoto because they were for independence and I quote you again, you say in your statement that they tortured you because they wanted to know who burnt their properties.  You see you said that in the statement but now you tell us something different, you tell us that they burnt their own properties.  So when they asked you did you tell them you burn your own properties?  I am putting this to you to say to you please, I mean make our life easier.  If you can't give us information in public say so and we can get it in camera.  But don't play with us, it is not making it easy for us.  Would you like to say anything further on this issue or shall we leave it there?

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: No, I can continue  ....  (nothing further on tape).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Magau.  Did you understand what was being said, Mr Ntuli?  Did you understand what Mr Wynand was saying to you?

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Joyce will ask you a question.

MS SEROKE: Mr Magau, I will speak in Zulu, I hope you don't mind.  The questions are based on a statement which says as a member of the UDF we were fighting against Mbokoto because
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
10 NTULI
Mbokoto was for independence.  So he is asking a question, the manner in which you operated, he asked those people whose shops were being burnt down and necklaced, you said they were the people who burnt their own houses.

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: We wanted to ask those because the people were burning their own shops.