Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

DITINI THYIDO: Before I respond to that one, can I please clarity one thing.  If we can take note this application form, some of the questions that was answered in this application form we didn't get them correctly, this might be the cause that in this application that there could be some contradictions and the answers won't be the relevant answers.
	Because we didn't have the knowledge.  One day myself, I wrote a letter to Alex Boraine because I wanted to get more knowledge in writing about application for amnesty, but I got this response, this letter which is signed by Ms Khampepe.
	It doesn't give me the information that I want.

JUDGE WILSON: I am asking you about the application form that you filled in yourself in which you said some Committee members came unexpectedly and shot at us while we were walking with this Committee member, Mr Mpisane and he ran away, that is what you wrote down on your amnesty application form.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct, because I was not being articulate, because it is not the kind of answer that I was supposed to give in that question.  I was not being relevant.

JUDGE WILSON: I want to know why you said in your amnesty application form which you swore to, that somebody came unexpectedly and shot at you?  It is a simple statement, there can be no doubt about it, you said that they came unexpectedly and shot at us.  Why did you say that?

DITINI THYIDO: The evidence in this application form I can't remember taking an oath for this, but I am sure of what I am saying now, but this one in this application form, I didn't take an oath for it.

JUDGE WILSON: That will mean we haven't got an application for amnesty before us.  If it wasn't done properly.  We haven't got the last page of the photostat, was it sworn to>

MR BRINK: My recollection is that it was, but I don't know what happened to the last page.  The usual problem, we will be discussing this afternoon ... (tape ends)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: You wrote this down and you knew that this was the information you were putting down on your amnesty application which was that you were shot at by some people.

DITINI THYIDO: I would like the Committee to take note that if you realise that in my court application, there is a mention of the shooting, but what is on here, it is not the genuine truth.
	But this was due to misunderstanding, unawareness.

JUDGE WILSON: That is nonsense.  There was no possible misunderstanding, you were setting out your version and it was not the truth.  Is that what you are now telling us, that you filled in something on your amnesty application form which was not true?  Because it wasn't true, was it?

DITINI THYIDO: It is very difficult to respond to this question, but I would like to refer you to page 5, where it is written in Xhosa where it is mentioned that I do not think that this person understood this question.
	That is one example, relating to this application showing that there are some instances where we did not know what was the actual question and how to respond to it.

JUDGE WILSON: You are still not answering the question of why you responded untruthfully and put down something which you knew was not the truth?  It is not a question of not responding, it is the fact that you responded untruthfully that I want you to explain.  Can you explain why you did that?

DITINI THYIDO: The fact that we were going to a meeting is true, but the untrue part of the statement is that somebody appeared and shot us, but that was said in court due to some reasons.

JUDGE WILSON: I am not talking about court now, I am talking about the application you filed for amnesty, why did you put that untruthful statement in?

DITINI THYIDO: Your Honour, if you can observe that even the concept of amnesty, I was not aware of, but there might be things that might come up that I was not aware that I should reveal in my application, and therefore I must be pardoned for that.

JUDGE WILSON: This is not something which you did not reveal, this is a false statement you made and you are making no endeavour to explain why you did it?
	It is not something which you did not reveal, something you did not understand, you made a false statement.

DITINI THYIDO: I will request Your Honour to understand that what we have written here is that we were going to a meeting, but what did not happen is the fact that somebody appeared and shot at us.  But we said this in court, but I wrote this to show this Committee that there are people like us who are not aware what to write on such applications.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you now saying you did this deliberately, you wrote this to show the Committee that there are people who don't know what to write on such applications, is that the explanation you are now giving?

DITINI THYIDO: In this particular application, yes, it is so but after having got the information that I needed, I reapplied.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you are admitting that what you have said here, part of it, is not true, is that what you are saying?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any untruths in your application form?

DITINI THYIDO: This statement was done and written not under sworn oath, but it was just filled in.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you whether it was under sworn oath or not, are there any other points you made in this statement which are not true, that is my question to you now.  Apart from the one we already talked about?

DITINI THYIDO: Due to some unawareness there might be such statements in my application.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ms Thyido, did you at stage lose a relative?

DITINI THYIDO: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... where you were staying, ever attacked by members of your community?

DITINI THYIDO: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... involved in any attack where your house or your relatives were attacked by members of the community?

DITINI THYIDO: I personally do not have a house, but my parents had to seek alternative accommodation and had to run away.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did they have to seek alternative accommodation or run away from that community?

DITINI THYIDO: It is due to threats and allegations that we might be attacked, therefor they had to move due to uncertainty.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And who were you expecting to attack you?

DITINI THYIDO: I was expecting the policemen or whoever they might use, to do this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Didn't you at one stage or another, suspect that Mr Mpisane would attack you and your companions, like Mr Mkhulutha?

DITINI THYIDO: I never thought of that, but there were such allegations that Mr Mpisane was one of the reasons for this violence that was happening.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And who advised you that Mr Mpisane might be implicated in such attacks?

DITINI THYIDO: It was just rumours in the community.  But there is no specific person who came to tell me that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was that matter taken up with the local branch of the ANC, you were both members of that organisation?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, it is so because it went up to the level of the branch of the ANC.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, when you heard that Mr Mpisane was suspected of being an informer or as you put it, you actually got a tip that Mpisane was an informant, what did you do, did you take that matter up with the ANC?

DITINI THYIDO: Your Honour, I would like to clarify this.  My membership in the ANC Youth League was different altogether to my membership of the Self Defence Unit.  Such things were discussed in the Self Defence Units, but not in the ANC Youth League.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Didn't you arrange a meeting with Mr Makalene to discuss this particular matter involving the mismanagement of funds of the SDU and Mr Makalene was the Chairperson of the local branch of the ANC and the mismanagement of funds, in fact concerned the issues of the SDU and not issues directly related to the ANC?