Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that question.

WALTER SMILES: Mr de Koker?

PROF DE KOKER: You saw him when the petitions were being handed over?

WALTER SMILES: That's right.

PROF DE KOKER: You saw him there?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Why did you see him?  Where was he standing?

WALTER SMILES: He was right in front.

PROF DE KOKER: Standing in the front?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: You would have been looking ahead because that is where you were going to throw the hand grenade, is that right?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain carefully.

PROF DE KOKER: You were looking ahead at the building, is that right?

WALTER SMILES: That's correct.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha was standing in front, so you were looking at him - in his direction?

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't looking at him.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened after you helped Major Mbatha to take the people away?

WALTER SMILES: What then happened, there was one person who had died and then we took the truck and we picked up the other injured people.

PROF DE KOKER: And what happened then?

WALTER SMILES: We took them to hospital.

PROF DE KOKER: And then?

WALTER SMILES: And then we discussed this matter and then we left - I explained how it happened and then we left.   Then we heard that innocent people had been hurt and he said to me: "Smiles, you must take responsibility for this case" and that's how I accepted it with the statement that we made.

PROF DE KOKER: Why did he tell you to accept responsibility?

WALTER SMILES: Because other people had been charged with this.

PROF DE KOKER: Did he give you an instruction to accept responsibility?

WALTER SMILES: My conscience bothered me and I decided then to accept because people had - innocent people had been killed and hurt.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you go to Major Mbatha and say that you wanted to do it or did he come to you?

WALTER SMILES: No, we agreed that I would stand in for this.

PROF DE KOKER: What about Major Mbatha, he was also responsible together with you.

WALTER SMILES: I had to protect him as my commander because I didn't know what would happen to him if they revealed him, I had to take responsibility, I was the person.

PROF DE KOKER: But he gave you the instruction?

WALTER SMILES: That's right.

PROF DE KOKER: Was it your decision to protect him?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, it was my decision to protect him.

PROF DE KOKER: And what was his reaction?

WALTER SMILES: He didn't react at all, he stayed cool.

PROF DE KOKER: You were protecting him and you were going to go to jail alone?

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't worried about that, that was my duty.

PROF DE KOKER: You wouldn't have been worried about going to jail?

WALTER SMILES: No.

PROF DE KOKER: How long did you think you would go to jail for this?  How long did you think you were going to be locked up if you went and said you did it?

WALTER SMILES: That would depend on the court.

PROF DE KOKER: But did you prepare yourself for how long?

WALTER SMILES: I'm not a Magistrate.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr de Koker, I don't think this is going to bring us any closer to a solution to the problem about which we have to decide, please limit your questions to that part which is relevant in Law.  That is what we are dealing with, whether he thought he was going to go to jail for 100 years or for the day is not going to help us at all to decide these questions that we have to decide here.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr Chairman, what I wanted to determine was that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, don't explain that point if it may put the witness on the alert, do you know what I mean?  If you feel you are making an important point, go on to make it, don't explain it to us if you feel your explanation will put the witness on the alert.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha said it was cool that you went to jail yourself and that his role wasn't mentioned.

WALTER SMILES: I said he was okay.

PROF DE KOKER: Okay, you said he was cool, he was all right.

PROF DE KOKER: Which instructions did he actually give you?

WALTER SMILES: The instructions he gave me was to through the grenade into the Trust Bank building ...[intervention]

PROF DE KOKER: Sorry, Mr Smiles, it was my mistake I confused you.  What I was going to ask you was what instructions did he give you in terms of your statement at the police?

WALTER SMILES: No, he didn't give me instructions in that regard.

PROF DE KOKER: No instructions?

WALTER SMILES: No, he was in the office on the other side but I felt I must say what was in that statement.

PROF DE KOKER: How did it come that you ended up with Mr Isaacs, did you go yourself?

WALTER SMILES: Mr de Koker?

PROF DE KOKER: Did you go all by yourself to Mr Isaacs?  Did you phone him, did you tell him: "I have information, I want to discuss with you"?  Tell us how did come about that you went to Mr Isaacs?   (transcriber's own translation)

WALTER SMILES: Mr Mbatha took me, we met with Denzil Potgieter the Advocate and  then I explained the incident to them.

PROF DE KOKER: What did you explain to them?

WALTER SMILES: That is what is stated in the statement of September.

PROF DE KOKER: Was that statement of September correct except for the fact  that you did not mention Major Mbatha's involvement?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain it again.

PROF DE KOKER: You said yesterday you made a statement in 1993 with one mistake.

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: The mistake was that Mr Mbatha was not mentioned anywhere.

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: Now, is the statement correct - the remainder of the statement correct?

WALTER SMILES: The statement Mr de Koker, where I mentioned about the hand grenade I was unsure - I wasn't sure about that other man's position, I had to protect him and this is why I said - mentioned - referred to Johannesburg.  He gave me the instructions ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The witness said that the man was in Johannesburg while he was not in Johannesburg.

PROF DE KOKER: I want to refer the Commission to page 2 of paragraph 9 of the statement, the second sentence.
	 Mr Smiles, in this statement you say ...[intervention]

MR TSHOLANKU: Exhibit A, Mr Chairman.

PROF DE KOKER: Exhibit A therefore, page 2, paragraph 9, second sentence
"While the memo was still being read I took the hand grenade out of the bag so that no-one could see it"
Is that correct Mr Smiles?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's correct.

PROF DE KOKER: But this morning you told us that you had the hand grenade out of the bag while you were still underway, you were in the march on your way to the building, you were walking.

WALTER SMILES: Please explain to me again.

PROF DE KOKER: I asked you this morning, when did you take the hand grenade out of the bag and you said you took it out of the bag while you were walking.  In '93 in paragraph 9 you said
"I took the hand grenade quietly out of the bag while the petition was being read"
Which is now the correct time?  Were you correct this morning or were you correct in 1993?    (transcriber's own translation)

WALTER SMILES: Mr de Koker, it is something which happened in 1993, any person can forget something, so at this stage I may have forgotten as we sit here.

PROF DE KOKER: Which is then correct, when did you take out the hand grenade.

WALTER SMILES: While we were walking on the way there.

PROF DE KOKER: Now you remembered that you were underway but in 1993, three or four months after the incident you said you took out the hand grenade there.

WALTER SMILES: Well, that's quite a number of years back, that's why I'm a bit confused - four years ago, I can't remember exactly what I said then.

PROF DE KOKER: You also said you handed over the bag to someone else?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct, that was underway.

PROF DE KOKER: In 1993 you said you still had the bag with you because that was the deduction
"I took the hand grenade quietly out of the bag"