bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: We will await your heads of argument then, but deal with those issues that we've raised with you in addition to the issue of proportionality.
	We've come to the end of this hearing.  We hope to be able to make a decision on the issues very soon after receiving Mr Koopedi's argument.  And I want to thank the logistics officer for arranging this hearing.  Also special thanks to all the interpreters, it is a thankless job, it is a difficult job.  To the applicants for taking advantage of the opportunities to come to terms with life.  And in particular I want to address the victims and those people who have lost love ones.  Unfortunately this country has experienced a terrible life over the last couple of hundred years.  
	There are other people who have similarly lost loved ones, especially during the times, the height of the apartheid regime.  That does not, and I don't intend to suggest, that what happened in the events which we are concerned with is justified.  If for nothing else, for humanitarian reasons one can appreciate the feelings and the hurt that you experience, and one can only hope that in an endeavour to bring to fruition what we started in this country in 1994, that we can, with time, come to terms with what has happened.  
	I'm not going to suggest forgiving or forgetting, that is a matter for each individual person, but I can only hope that with time the emotional aspects of your lives will tend to be remedied.  I'm not too sure what we're going to find or what decision we're going to come to in this matter, I can only draw your attention to the fact that this Committee intends to apply the law as best it can, and whatever decision we make will be in terms of that law, and probably in the interest of this country.  
	I thank those victims and those who lost their loved ones for participating in this extraordinary and unusual process.  It is intended to bring people together like we should have been many hundreds of years ago, but as I said it was an unfortunate experience of this country, and it is the duty of each of us to press on so that we rectify the wrongs as best we can.
	This hearing is now closed, I thank you.    
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee comprised of Judges Mall,  Judge Wilson on my right, Judge Ngoepe on my left, Advocate Chris de Jager, SC, on his left and Miss Khampepe on the right of Judge Wilson.
	We are about the commence the hearing of evidence of General Viktor who has been subpoenaed by the Committee at the request of Mr Brian Currin who represented a number of victims in respect of whom or concerning whom evidence was given at a previous hearing.
	Mr Visser, I understand, you will be representing General Viktor, is that correct?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may it please you Mr Chairman, Honourable members of the Committee, my name is Louis Visser, I am instructed by Jan Wagner of the attorney's firm Wagner Muller & du Plessis.  We are instructed to assist General Viktor here in his evidence today, and may we immediately say that we appreciate the opportunity of him being able to come to you and to put certain matters in perspective as far as the evidence referred to him, yes Mr Chairman.
BREAK IN RECORDING

CHAIRPERSON: You are here representing

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am here representing the five security policemen who applied for amnesty, namely Brigadier Cronje, Captain Hechter, Colonel Venter, Captain Mentz and W/O van Vuuren.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Currin.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman I am here representing many of the victims of the acts and offences committed by the applicants in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe you are the leader of evidence of the TRC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Visser, you may begin.
Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: You will, in the course of your heads, which I understand you will be submitting on the overall case, deal with this aspect of the matter to the extent that you think it necessary to deal with?

UNKNOWN: Yes Mr Chairman we will deal with the matter in our heads of argument which will reach you shortly Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Alright, you are excused.
COUNSEL EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman may I suggest that we adjourn now so as to get the other parties in and then we can start in five minutes time to relocate things properly Mr Chairman, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  We will take a short adjournment.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we are on, if I may call it, matter no.2 now Mr Chairman, and I want to believe I am in the good hands of Advocate Bizos in this regard, to move the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Before Counsel commence in this matter a member of my Committee wishes to make a statement.

ADV DE JAGER: During 1990 I made a statement at the Police to investigate certain statements by the late Mr Hani with regard to legal actions.  These statements were made after the unbanning of the South African Communist Party.  My actions created the perception that I might not be able to act impartially in the current application.  It is of the greatest importance that the activities of the Amnesty Committee would not only be wholly impartial, but that it should also be perceived to be entirely impartial by the public at large.   The Committee must at all times act with integrity and impartiality and it should be perceived by the public to be such.
	In view of the preceding I consider it my responsibility to recuse myself from this hearing.
	During 1990 I laid a charge with the Police to investigate certain remarks of the late Mr Hani.  This was after the unbanning of the South African Communist Party.  This led to the perception that I wouldn't be in a position to make an unbiased decision in the present application.  It is of the utmost importance that the Amnesty Committee should not only act with absolute impartiality but that it should also be seen by all South Africans as a Committee acting with integrity and impartiality.  I therefore think it is my duty to recuse myself from the sitting in this Committee who deals with the present application.
ADVOCATE DE JAGER LEAVES THE COMMITTEE

CHAIRPERSON: This application will now be heard by the Committee comprising of the Chairman, Judge Wilson on my right, Judge Ngoepe on my left and Ms Khampepe on the right of Judge Wilson.  We are about to deal with the application of Mr Janus Walus and Mr Clive Derby Lewis for amnesty.
	We have been told that before we get into the merits of the application that there is a preliminary application and I am going to invite Counsel to proceed with that aspect of the matter.
	Mr Bizos I understand you appear for ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson, Members of the Amnesty Committee.  I appear for Mrs Hani and the South African Communist Party together with my learned friend Mr G M Malindi sitting on my right, instructed by Mrs Caroline Nicholls of Nicholls & Partners, in order to oppose the application for the granting of amnesty Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I appear on behalf of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.

ADV VAN DER WALDT: Mr Chairman I appear on behalf of Mr Janus Walus on the instructions of my attorney Mr Jan Lubbe on my left.  I am Louisa van der Waldt.

UNKNOWN: My name is Harry Prinsloo Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.
Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

GEORGE BIZOS: Well yes, I do take the point.  They have a statutory right for their case to be heard, as any litigant has a statutory or a common law right for their case to be heard, but then the party that has an equally important right should be given an opportunity to put her and its case properly, and we will not be able to do it.  And justice generally speaking has to balance out competing demands.  And on balance, with respect, we are entitled to a postponement.
	May I refer to the Judges - yes, it is most unfortunate that the Committee's life is limited, but judging by the number of applications that we are told about the four days that are left are not going to make a material difference having regard to the number of cases that are there.  Yes, we are not unmindful of that Judge, but what we do, however, submit strongly that the rights of Mrs Hani are as sufficiently important and the reconciliation process requires that sort of balance of rights.  
	I think I ought to make this point Judge Wilson, that there is a difference between a person who is presumed innocent and who is in custody and self-confessed murderers who may or may not be entitled to amnesty.

JUDGE WILSON: But you have taken that into account, as I understand, by your suggestion that you could be ready in two weeks.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will be ready in two weeks and there is only - if I was available I said.  But how much - let us assume that personal convenience doesn't matter, how much longer will it take a new person coming in in order to prepare?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson Mr Lubbe will address the Committee.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MALAN: May I just ask, sorry, I want to ask it now so that you can follow on if necessary.
	When you drove them to the supermarket it was your van, it was quite a way that you had to drive, did you pay for your own petrol or did they pay for the petrol?  Did they give you money for the petrol?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: My car already had petrol, enough to drive there, and then when we arrived at Odendaal I put in some petrol again.

MR MALAN: Who paid for that petrol?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Sibanda paid for the petrol.

MR MALAN: Can you remember what the petrol cost you when you came back, that Sibanda paid for?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He paid about R50,00.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, maybe in the meantime I beg leave to submit another statement, the statement of Mr Stefanus Johannes Hugo who was the investigating officer.  He is present here today.  It's a statement of his regarding this issue, and can that be marked Exhibit C?

CHAIRPERSON: C1.

MR STEENKAMP: C1.  I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.  I've handed a copy to my learned colleague here.  The original is in your possession Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I said C1, because we were in fact handed - oh, one is a copy, well then C.  Sorry, I thought we'd been handed two statements.

MR STEENKAMP: It's only the original and a copy for yourself Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STEENKAMP: Sure Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you've had a chance of reading it either.  I think we can all take a minute or two to read it.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, the exhibit is only two pages.  The document appears to be an affidavit but it's not dated or taken under oath.

MR STEENKAMP: That is correct Mr Chairman, if necessary I can call the investigating officer to confirm this statement.  It was actually drafted today, a few minutes back but that can be amended if necessary.

MR MALAN: When was this statement made?

MR STEENKAMP: It was made today Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to Stanley Mohale.  I take it that is Stanley Tshoane who has just given evidence?

MR STEENKAMP: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, unless there is anything more?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have finished with this applicant.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MALAN: And you brought in order to make it available to people to, in terms of police, continue attacks?

MOALUSI MORRISON: Correct.

MR MALAN: I don't think this questioning can lead us any further Mr Steenkamp.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe just one last question Mr Chairperson, if you would allow me.
	Sir, are you aware what the PAC policy was at that stage, regarding the identification of targets, do you know what it was?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

MOALUSI MORRISON: As a soldier I know that.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please then tell us what the policy was?

MOALUSI MORRISON: The majority of the whites, if we happened to sport a place that is actually frequented by a majority of whites we had to target that place and attack them.  Even the petrol deports, we had to target them so as to cripple the economy.  The farmers were also targets, police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No re-examination Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-21

ABEL OUPA LERATO KHOTLE: I gave comrade Prof the moneybag whilst we were in the store, because Prof was already dead by then.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, today is Thursday the 27th May 1999. This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee in Bloemfontein. Panel is myself, Denzil Potgieter, together with Adv Gcabashe and Mr Malan.
	We are hearing the matters this morning, amnesty applications of Thembinkosi Ngubeni, amnesty no AM3369/96, Trevor Masilo, amnesty reference AM3736/96, and Edwin Simelane, amnesty reference AM3738/96. Mr Mbandazayo, do you want to put yourself on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson and honourable members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman and honourable members. My surname is Steenkamp and I'm Evidence Leader in this matter. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Steenkamp. Yes, Mr Mbandazayo? Have you, is your client sorted out with the translation? Does this work.

INTERPRETER: Yes, Chairperson, it does work.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, thank you, Chairperson and members of the Committee. The first applicant will be Thembinkosi Ngubeni. Chairperson, may he be sworn in, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Yes. Mr Ngubeni, can you hear me on the headphones? Do you hear the translation?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, I can hear you.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: (sworn and states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Ngubeni, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the honourable Committee members. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed then to read the affidavit, thereafter I'll lead the applicant in specific issues for clarification.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, I assume you wouldn't have anything further to add, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will have to take time to consider this matter in order to come to a decision. As we have indicated,  Mr Mbandazayo, we would require the affidavit of, is it, just give me the full names of the ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Jabulani Khumalo. Jabulani Khumalo, a member of the ANC or PAC. Jabulani Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would require the affidavit of Mr Jabulani Khumalo. We would like to put a time limit on this, as you would appreciate, you know, all of us are in, into an impossible schedule of work, and the longer we are kept away from analysing matters and writing decisions, the worse it gets for us. So, can you give us an idea as to what, you know, how soon you could, could arrange this for us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may, I would, if I can be given a deadline as the next of next week Friday, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In 14 days time?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, if somebody has got a diary, date on Friday next of next week, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: 4th, 4th of June.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the 4th of June, Chairperson. Not next Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: The 11th, yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Not the next Friday, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: 11th of June.

MR MBANDAZAYO: 11th of June. 11th of June, yes, Chairperson. By the 11th June, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But I'll try my best, Chairperson, to be there next week. I just want to be given time because he is in Joburg, so I have to travel and get everything done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, we appreciate that, Mr Mbandazayo. So we will reserve the decision in this matter. The applicants' legal representative will furnish the Panel with the affidavit of Mr Jabulani Khumalo on or before the 11th, Friday the 11th of June 1999, in order to enable us to finalise the matter.
	Mr Steenkamp, I think that concludes our matters here.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that will conclude the matters here as well as the roll for the week. If I may also take the opportunity on behalf of the victims who brought 800 kms to attend this hearing, they, on behalf of them, they would like to thank you and honourable Committee members for the way and the manner their specific matters were dealt with. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Steenkamp. Yes, that concludes the hearing in Bloemfontein. From the part of the Panel we would also just like to express our thanks to everybody who has assisted us in having this hearing. There are normally a great number of people who exert themselves in order to make this kind of process possible. We would thank all of them. And the members of the public and the media, who have shown an interest in this process and, of course, to the legal representatives, Mr Mbandazayo and Adv Steenkamp, for your assistance. And from my side, for my two colleagues with me, Adv Gcabashe and Mr Malan, for their assistance in this matter. We will adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I wanted to make everybody aware who is here, our life-span is really limited and it is our view and the considered view that we cannot allow postponements.  Like we are here, we've got to finish everything here in Bloemfontein.  We won't come back and should there be a matter that is outstanding, we will feel very bad because we had undertaken, we have been just told last week Tuesday by Parliament because they summoned us that we've got to finish.  We wouldn't want to put anybody through what we are doing right now, but I say with some little co-operation, let's all do it because we are prepared to hear every applicant who is outstanding and that goes for the other applicants that tomorrow we would start slightly early and go up to 4.30 to accommodate everybody.  It's in the interest of not only the Panel, but in the interest of everybody, the country as such, that people have been seen to have prosecuted their applications and we had to listen to those applications because my hours start at 10 to 4, those are my hours when I'm in court, 10 to 4 and nothing else, but I'm going a mile extra in these proceedings, so let's have that co-operation because people will have cause to complain that we skipped Bloemfontein, whereas it was not in our making and we want you, Mr Lebea, to understand that as well.  We're not saying we would listen to anybody who is indisposed, but please, people should bear in mind that we should be accommodated as well.  Our life-span is limited.  After the end of August there won't be hearings unless special dispensation is made for that, so like we've gone past Bloemfontein, it will be by special dispensation that we would come back to Bloemfontein.  We are no longer coming back to Bloemfontein.  Please, I want everybody to understand this and I would suggest that we will recuse you for today and start at 9 with you and call Mr Pumulo and see how far we can go with Mr Pumulo.

MR K LEBEA: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are in the driving seat.  Who's the next?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry about that.  You're not involved in this one?  We are sorry about this.  ...(indistinct) unfortunately explain to clients what is happening.
Thank you.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Coetzer, any argument?

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Committee Members, suffice to say that one should not hide behind another when it comes to the responsibility for one's actions.  One cannot expect of a political organisation to carry the blame for deeds that one committed.
	In the light of this, I leave the decision in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will also be very brief.

MS MTANGA: It is my submission to this Committee today that Mr Khumalo committed this offence for
personal gain.  It was in his evidence that he never accounted for the items they robbed from the Odendaal family, he never accounted for these to either Mr Makwara or to any other member of the PAC and he never gave evidence as to what happened to these items and one can only conclude that Mr Khumalo kept whatever they obtained for themselves, that is Khumalo and Tshabalala.  	Secondly I also would like to submit that the failure by Mr Khumalo to answer very basic questions about his political organisation that he had been a member for more than two years at the time he committed this offence, clearly shows that Mr Khumalo has lied about his political affiliation.  He was never a member of the PAC and he committed this offence as a criminal, not as a political person,
	Finally he has not given full disclosure in regard to what was obtained from the Odendaal family.  It's clear from the evidence from Court that money was taken from the family and the applicant here today denies that he knew money was taken, despite evidence showing that money was found in his possession at the time he was arrested.
	That is all I'd like to say, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Mr Mbandazayo, obviously you do not have a reply.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO REPLY BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Khumalo, thank you very much.  What is going to happen, the three of us here are going to sit down, decide and after we have made our decision it will be written, because the Act requires us, the Act that brought us here, the Act that has brought our existence actually, requires us that the decision that we give should be in writing.  Your attorney, Mr Mbandazayo, will be provided with a copy and another copy will come to you, do you understand that?
	We will try our utmost that we don't delay it unduly.  We will do everything in our power to give the decision as soon as possible, but it has to be written.  The same here, Mr Coetzer, we've got to give a written decision and it shall be sent to you shortly, so in other words what I'm saying is that our decision is reserved.  We thank you for having come, Mr Khumalo.
	I notice it's just about ten to eleven and I hope Mr Kachelhoffer it will be appropriate to have tea at this time.  Thank you.  We shall adjourn for tea for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

MR COETZER: Thank you Chair, I will determine what it is.
	Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I have just been informed that the Myburgs do not oppose the amnesty application and that from their side they forgive the applicant for the deeds that he committed.  They understand that it was committed with an objective in mind and they also view it from that perspective, therefore there are no feelings of malice on their side toward the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: This Committee is indebted to Mr and Mrs Myburg.  The Committee had full sight of the statement.  This is devastation to a family that has worked so hard in their lives and in the twilight of their lives they find that they have nothing.  The Committee is indebted to them that they have big hearts that despite this, they have come to accept that this was not done against them personally, there was no malice and we say this is what we feel as a Committee, we are achieving something in this reconciliation and I could add to it that Mr Gqomfa also made a statement which was appealing to show the extent he would extend his hand towards the Myburgs.  We are indebted to you.  The Committee is grateful that at least in its lifespan they would find people who are as good-hearted as they are, even at this juncture when you look at them basically they have nothing.  Thank you very much for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any submission?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just briefly.  Chairperson, ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't think it's necessary, do you think it's necessary for him?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that he's earning his money, but if its not necessary.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's not necessary.  Just, I wanted to highlight just a few things, but Chairperson, it's not necessary in any event.  In any event I had thought that I would make my submission when we finished the three of them, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are the incidents related?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was saying, Chairperson, because they involved farm attacks, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I intended to make a complete submission, but also it was not going to take two minutes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Would your clients be involved in the next application?  I'm not sure, Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Members of the Committee, there was an attack on a farm by the name of Fairview during which a bakkie belonging to one of my clients was placed there.  I'm not certain who the applicants are with regard to that matter, whether it is one person or two persons, but they are indeed involved then in the next application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR COETZER
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, who would be your next applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's Mr Kulman, Chairperson, Luvuyo Kenneth Kulman.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi.  Mr Mapoma, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR MAPOMA: Nothing, Chairperson, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Thank you very much Mr Thulo, this brings you to the end of your testimony, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Rather than having the next applicant, could we adjourn, would it be appropriate to adjourn for lunch?  Thank you, we adjourn for lunch, we'll reconvene at two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I hope you don't mind me throwing the ball into your court.

MR VISSER: Not at all, Chairperson, in fact I'd like to get my part of it done.  I call Mr Robertshaw.  He prefers to give his evidence in English, Chairperson, and his application appears in the bundle from page 16 onwards and a statement drafted on his behalf, from page 22A onwards.  He has no objection to taking the prescribed oath.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-25

JUDGE MGOEPE: Who was in charge of this operation amongst the four or five of you?

MISHEK MAY: The person who was in charge for this operation, as he was a unit commander, was Mr Hendrik Leeuw.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You never stayed at the farm isn't it?

MISHEK MAY: I did not.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You lived in Botshabelo?

MISHEK MAY: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  Re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV DE JAGER: Do you have anything there that you want to point out?

ADV THABETHE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry could you obtain any information about the R8 000 missing articles, missing rands?

ADV THABETHE: I am making arrangements to get the indictment.

JUDGE WILSON: The indictment itself may not be sufficient.  It may not explain what was missing.

ADV THABETHE: I will specify in the request.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't you get hold of the investigating officer perhaps?

ADV THABETHE: The one who was here around has gone to Welkom.  He said he'll be back before lunch, so he's not here right now.

ADV DE JAGER: I see quite a number of police people here, perhaps they could assist you in getting information if you need to get information.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as already agreed then, that this matter is not yet finalised, there are other incidents that are to be dealt with at a later stage.  May then this matter stand postponed to a date to be arranged by the parties.

JUDGE WILSON: (Microphone not switched on).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And the Committee members, my apologies.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.  (Indistinct - microphone not switched on).

MR VISSER: May we be excused, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if the Committee would not take me to task, Mr Chairman, the next matter is the Jack Menera matter which I am ready to proceed with, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: How long will it take?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I am estimating one and a half hours to two hours, maximum.

JUDGE WILSON: Is there any point in starting now?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the point is that if we started it,
 Mr Chairman, we shall have moved some distance and if we postpone then ...

JUDGE WILSON: We do intend to adjourn at 16:30 today.  (Indistinct).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then it wouldn't serve any purpose for me to start it, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, then we will start at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if I may try to impose myself on you and your honourable Committee, Mr Chairman, is it not possible for us to start earlier than nine o'clock, Mr Chairman? It is a very, very noble and humble request.  The interpreters don't have a problem, Mr Chairman, I always told them that we may start at six o'clock, they said they don't have a problem, please, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

ADV DE JAGER: On the basis that we will adjourn earlier, because it won't serve any purpose starting at six o'clock and adjourning tomorrow night at six.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the intention of starting early is that we adjourn earlier.  The opposite cannot hold, Mr Chairman, with respect.

JUDGE WILSON: We will start at 08H30.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My learned friend says eight would have been suitable, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

ADV DE JAGER: (Indistinct).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could we fine?

ADV DE JAGER: Could we fine those who are late (speaker's mike is off).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I can give you my word that half past seven I will be seated on this chair, my learned friend will be here at quarter to eight.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR NEMANE: Is it eight o'clock, M'Lord?  Is it eight o'clock, M'Lord?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

JUDGE WILSON: And I trust you will make sure that every interested party is given adequate notice.  The Appeal Court has now set down three weeks as adequate notice and there must be at least three weeks notice.  Well, that, have you any other matters on the roll that have not been disposed of?  What about the Cholota case?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the Cholota case, I was informed by the Judge secretaries that some members are to be in the four o' clock flight and some members in the seven o' clock flight, Mr Chairman.  So we have, we have arranged with the Advocate who is present that the matter be postponed to the date when all these matters will be coming, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well this matter then should be removed from the roll and then you can set it down on the date.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman, I am indebted, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: And the present matter is adjourned to a date to be arranged.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: And that concludes what we can dispose of here and we will now adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

UNKNOWN: Mr Cholota, at that time why were you not carrying guns, when you knew that these people might be armed with dangerous weapons?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: We didn't have guns, because we knew that we were going to attack, we never expected them to attack us.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: You knew you were going to attack policemen whom you expected to have guns, because the purpose of attacking them was to disarm them and you didn't think they would retaliate?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, M'Lord, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHONGWENI

ADV DE JAGER: What weapons did you carry?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: We were not armed, we didn't have weapons. I would say that because we knew that we were going to attack and we never thought that the enemy would know that we were going to attack. That is why we didn't arm ourselves.

JUDGE WILSON: But if you attack a man with your bare hands and he is armed with a gun, don't you think he will produce a gun and defend himself?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That was a possibility but we never thought of that, at that stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you seriously saying that?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I am serious.

UNKNOWN: No further questions, M'Lord.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHONGWENI
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

UNKNOWN: With your permission, Mr Chairman, I beg to call Mr Moalosi to the stand.

ADV DE JAGER: Ms Thabetha, do you know if there are any of the deceased's relatives present or any of the victims' family present?

MS THABETHA: I have just been told that there are some of them present.

ADV DE JAGER: Or of the other people that have been in the Tavern that night?

MS THABETHA: Well, I haven't consulted with the victims as yet because I was under the impression that they were not interested in coming, but they have decided to come.  So during the break I will talk to them.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, wouldn't it be more practical to talk to them before the break in case they give information that ought to be put to the applicants?

MS THABETHA: I thought ...

JUDGE WILSON: For example, they may be able to give you some information as to whether the deceased did ever kill a comrade, matters of that nature which should be put to them, surely.

MS THABETHA: Are you suggesting that we adjourn and I speak to them?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.  I suggest that, because as I understand it, Mr Maolosi's evidence will be from a completely different aspect.  He will not suggest that he had any motive.  He, as I read from the papers, said that this was a mistake.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: It may - are you intending to call Mr Thoabala?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I intended calling Mr Thoabala after ...

JUDGE WILSON: Because then it may be better to get that evidence on record before instructions are taken, because they may have instructions relating to both of them and it will save having a second adjournment, so perhaps we could proceed and after Mr Thoabala has given his evidence in chief, the evidence leader can take instructions and we could recall the first applicant, if needs be.

UNKNOWN: I am indebted to you.

JUDGE WILSON: The witness was duly sworn.

SIMON PHULA GHEDSA MOALOSI: (Duly sworn, states).

UNKNOWN: With your permission, M'Lord, the applicant will now give evidence.   Please state your full name and surname?

MR MAOLOSI: Simon Phula Ghedsa Moalosi.

MS THABETHA: How old are you?

MR MAOLOSI: I am 28 years old.

UNKNOWN: Where were you born?

MR MAOLOSI: Dumahole Location in Parys.

UNKNOWN: How long did you live there?

MR MAOLOSI: I was born there and I went to school in that area and I left to work somewhere else.

UNKNOWN: Up to what standard did you go to school?

MR MAOLOSI: I went up to Std 10.

UNKNOWN: Where did you pass your matric?

MR MAOLOSI: At Phehalang Secondary School in Parys.

UNKNOWN: What did you do after passing matric?

MR MAOLOSI: I joined the Department of Prison Services and I was a warder.

UNKNOWN: How long were you employed by the department of - now the Correctional Services?

MR MAOLOSI: I started working in January 1989, until I was sentenced to prison.

UNKNOWN: You are presently incarcerated in Kroonstad Prison for the murder of John Plaatjies and serving eight years.  Is that correct?

MR MAOLOSI: Yes, you are correct, it is eight years.

UNKNOWN: Could you tell the Committee what happened and what led to the killing of the deceased?
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

ADV MEMANI: Is it your evidence that Mamume reported at the parade the 
following morning in your presence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Together with Ditsametsi, because they did indicate that they got 
hold of him and he was assaulted.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: They reported at the parade, during the parade?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They told Colonel Coetzee at the office.  The parade field was not 
big.  We called it a parade because we had to report there every time and it was 
our parade because we reported in four-four and there were other offices in that 
building where the members of the Special Branch were conducting their duty. 
 Now we also had this other office.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It was in the office?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes it was in the office.

ADV MEMANI: Did you get any special reward for doing that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were not rewarded, it was part of our duty.  When we 
kidnapped people we were not rewarded at all, it was the harassment that we 
had to do on such people.

ADV MEMANI: Now that concludes the application in respect of the kidnap 
of White Mohape.

JUDGE WILSON: I think the time has come for us to adjourn, it is now 5 
o'clock. We'll adjourn until 9 o'clock  tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: 1

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/

FREESTATE: 37

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-15

JUDGE WILSON: And that should be done immediately, and then once that has been done, it seems to me, subject to what counsel may have to say, that it might be desirable in the circumstances of this case, to have something in the nature of a pre-trial conference presided over by one of the members of the Committee, where agreement could be reached as to the admissibility and otherwise of documents, as to the necessity for calling certain evidence, as to whether admissions can be made.  So that when the hearing commences again, it can continue uninterruptedly.  I do not want to make it sound as if I am blaming counsel for what has happened this time, there was obviously an unfortunate misunderstanding.  The document that was referred to at the last hearing, went amiss and copies were not made available as they should have.  As a result of which notice has not been given as required.  So we agree with the proposition that the matter should be adjourned to a date to be arranged and recommend that on that occasion it should be set down for the beginning of a week and no other matters should be set down for that week.  But before the date is arranged, I would request that contact be made with all the interested parties to ascertain the date is convenient to all of them.  And it should be done well in advance, because by that time the Committee may have increased in size, we may be spread all over the place, it may be more difficult to reconvene the same three members. So we need a little time to organise that.  So subject to that, I agree that the matter now be adjourned to a date to be arranged.

MS THABETHA: As the Chair pleases.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

MS THABETHA: That concludes the hearing for the week.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, before we adjourn, I would like to thank all those who have assisted us in the hearings here. I refer particularly to those responsible for the interpretation, the recording and for the arrangements in the hall and outside the hall. We have been very well looked after.  Once we managed to get hearings going, things operated very smoothly and I would like to thank the police, the people responsible for this building and everyone else who has assisted us. Thank you all.  We will now adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will adjourn now and resume at a quarter to two.
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

ADV DE JAGER: But in all fairness, can't - while a witness is testifying and it's your witness, can't you give him the attorney's copy in the meantime to look at and if Mr Visser's client would be testifying, his attorney could give his copy.  After all, I know all these documents cost money.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: There's no need for everybody to sit with a copy ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, what I'm saying now - I'm not saying that we're not going to do what you are suggesting for tonight but what I'm saying is, people should apply their minds to the long-term about the provision of documents to that witness's desk.

CHAIRPERSON: I agree with you entirely.  Anybody calling a witness who wants him to refer to documents should have copies of those documents available and anyone wanting to cross-examine a witness and put documents to him in the course of cross-examination should in my view, endeavour to have a copy of the document available.

ADV MEMANI: But now in the case of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I do not propose to get these voluminous papers duplicated now in Bloemfontein, Mr Memani because some victim might possibly want to look at it.  If the victims are going to be referred by their representative, he can arrange to have copies made of those documents.  If you want to cross-examine on some other document, you could get copies made and have them available.

ADV MEMANI: Which follows then that it's Mr Visser who must the copies that are required because we don't want to cross-examine, he wants to cross-examine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser can make a copy of these three pages or cause a copy to be made overnight.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman with respect, we gave I think 12 copies to the Commission, I mean how many must we make?  But anyway, we'll do it Mr Chairman, we'll do it.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

CHAIRPERSON: And you said, as you have said on many occasions, which counsel objected to, well the record will prove who is right.  If you look at the typed copy of the evidence of the 14th of May, which we were given today, you will see that at page 30, Mr Ngo said he was asked were you alone when you kidnapped Mr Mohapi and he said no, it was Tsoametsi, Mamome, Mtyala and Cronje.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The reply to you is of course, I haven't got that evidence yet.  I haven't seen that evidence.  But certainly I have no reason to doubt that you read me the correct evidence, but I wasn't aware of it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

HENDRIK BOKABA: Thank you Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May Captain Bokaba be excused?  Will you just bring my documents with.  Will you just bring the documents Captain, with you - just take it with you please, I'll get it from you just now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, those were the two witnesses we intended to call now.  As I've mentioned to you I will speak to Major Jordaan in this week and he has already given us an indication that he might be available to testify if the Committee at all wants such evidence.  However, I don't want to protract the proceedings, I will endeavour to obtain an affidavit and then act further on your instructions.  We believe that we will not be involved further Mr Chairman, in the application of Mr Motsamai and may I request form you that my attorney and I be excused at this point in time and for us to perhaps return later in this week?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well Mr du Plessis, you and your attorney are excused for the moment.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman
MR DU PLESSIS AND ATTORNEY EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, can I just enquire from you, seeing that I've acted on behalf the so-called disadvantaged or prejudiced persons, I want an indication what specifically you require from me to say that I must argue.  If I understand my position correctly, and also the position of the victims, I just have to convince you that they should be regarded as the so-called victims ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that the incidents took place.  We have had a complete denial by every policeman who gave evidence, save for the two applicants, that anything improper took place anywhere at any time.  Now your victims have given fairly detailed evidence about what did happen to them at various times and it is on that that we would like to hear argument from you.
	I take it - I may have forgotten some things I have been told, that your efforts ...[indistinct] elucidation from the court here were not successful.

MR STANDER: I went to the local Magistrate's Court and there are no records of any confessions and this may sound strange but there are no records.  I'm sorry, I can't take this any further.

CHAIRPERSON: I think understandably enough, it's certainly my experience, ...[indistinct] that after a limited period the courts just haven't got the space to keep records any more, they are sent elsewhere where they are kept for a further period and then they are destroyed.
	It is a pity.  In other cases when one has wanted to obtain, but I don't think it indicates any underhand behaviour on anyone's part, it's one of the problems of busy courts.  I'm of course old fashioned, it may be now with the modern equipment we have, that they can be put onto disks and things and kept very much more easily.  You have been ...[indistinct]

MR STANDER: There are no records available, I couldn't trace any.

CHAIRPERSON: And I imagine also - I don't think there's much ...[distinct] about that, the  Magistrates who were doing that sort of thing in 1986, are no longer about.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, they are here.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they?

MR STANDER: Mr Housigo is still here and also the other person who took confessions here. In the first place they can't remember this incident and they don't remember anything so it's useless.

CHAIRPERSON: Will 10 o'clock tomorrow morning be suitable for you?  And Mr Memani, you have the distinction of opening the innings followed by Mr Stander and Mr Visser can close.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS