Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

DIRK COETZEE: Well Mr Chairman, we stopped before - I can't say whether it's the first time.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  And Jan Raath will - Jan Raath denies that he knew anything about this motorcar, that he ever asked for the tyres of this motorcar or that he ever drove the motorcar or parked the motorcar.

DIRK COETZEE: It is a very, very, - sorry, affair that the applicants Mr Chairman, has come so near to the truth but doesn't want to open up and just come out with the full truth.  I can't understand why the logic has just stopped here,   And I want to mention to this Commission if you afford me ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but there's ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] amnesty for the killing of Kondile.

MR VISSER: I accept that except that I just knew that it had to - I had to put to Mr Coetzee the version of Mr Raath for fear of confronted that I didn't put it Mr Chairman.
	Now, let's come to another matter which might also be only obliquely relevant.  You associated yourself with the killing of Mr Kondile, that much we can accept.

DIRK COETZEE: I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you knew when you gave your evidence before the Amnesty Committee that you were supposed to explain how that was an act associated with a political objective.

DIRK COETZEE: If you say I was requested, I'll accept that Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What is wrong with a "yes" or a "no" Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't specifically remember whether I was asked about the political objective of it Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: The application form requires it of you Mr Coetzee, that's a part of the requirements of the Act Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: On the form, I will accept Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, if I remember correctly Mr Coetzee - his application for amnesty related to some 40 matters, this was just one of them.

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed but that doesn't change the fact that he knew that he had to set out a political objective.
	And what I'm really coming to is this.  Is it not true that you have consistently told everyone on all occasions that Sizwe Kondile has sustained brain haemorrhage or brain damage and that that is the reason why he had to be killed?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, head injuries was my original one and it was then eventually put to me as brain haemorrhage and I don't know whatever but head injuries, yes.

MR JANSEN: But only to be corrected on this basis Mr Chairman, that he's consistently said that on a basis that it was told to him.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, and for your information the references to that you will find at Volume 2 page 94, paragraph (e) page 99, that's the manuscript.  Paragraph 5.4, .8, .3, .4, it's not in my numbering Mr Chairman and page 103, the affidavit - that is Volume 2 as well.
	And then going to pages 118 to 119 of Volume 2 you became specific in your evidence before the Amnesty Committee did you not, where you explained that Kondile was - as far as you were aware, no security threat - that's in the middle of the page.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that page 118?

MR VISSER: 119, I'm sorry.  Did I say 118?  No, I'm sorry, 118 is the security threat, quite correct Mr Chairman.
	118 of Volume 2 - perhaps we should read this in fairness to you Mr Coetzee.  In the middle of the page you say:
"Now, at the time, did you know anything about the security threat that Mr - or supposed security threat that Mr Kondile posed to the people in the Eastern Cape"?
Your answer is:
"No, I did not have any exact details about it Mr Chairman?
Then Justice Wilson who asks you at the foot of that page 118:
"Sorry, have I misunderstood you?  I understood that this man had suffered injuries and was mentally unstable now"
...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: Where are you reading now Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 119.  The foot of page 118 to the top of page 119.

DIRK COETZEE: Right, I've got it thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, and I'll have to pick it up again.
"Sorry, have I misunderstood you?  I understood that this man had suffered injuries and was mentally unstable now"
Your answer is:
"As I said Mr Chairman, I could detect nothing from him looking at him as a person, I could nothing funny but apparently his behaviour became peculiar in some way.  I didn't ask specific details about it but he able to walk, he was friendly and when Nick van Rensburg greeted him in single quarters that day and when he got out of the car at Komatiepoort, he was walking on his own, he looked quite normal"

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.
MR VISSER
"But they decided to liquidate him because of his injuries"
Asks Judge Wilson.
"They didn't want another Steve Biko case"?
"That's correct Mr Chairman"
Question:
"There was no question of him being a danger"?
Chairman - I'm sorry, you say:
"There was no question of him being a danger"

DIRK COETZEE: No, I don't - there was no question of ...[indistinct]

MR VISSER: All right.  So from that a whole number of issues flow but the one that I want to concentrate on is that by putting to you that the only thing that seems vaguely political about this, is  the - is your inclusion of a reference to Mr Steve Biko.  Would you agree with that statement?

DIRK COETZEE: No.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, with respect, what is political is not for Mr Coetzee to comment on.  That's a matter for argument and it's a matter for the interpretation of the Act.  I think we should just keep to the facts and ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I disagree with my learned friend but I'll skip that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: But in your own words, you knew that that wasn't the reason, isn't that so Mr Coetzee? - that's the point.

DIRK COETZEE: No.  I knew the reason, getting rid of him was because he sustained injuries whilst being tortured, dived through a window to get away from his torturers or his interrogators, landed on his head and as a result of the he sustained injuries which could have caused another Biko case, was told to me Mr Chairman, which would have had huge political uproar ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Yes please, thank you Mr Coetzee, thank you very much, you've answered the question.  And Nick van Rensburg told you this?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And your common sense told you otherwise? - as we've just read.

DIRK COETZEE: No, my common sense did not tell me anything otherwise.  I don't know who - when they who knew him well would say his behaviour became peculiar, what that would mean, that you would have to put to the applicants Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You did not know whether Mr Kondile was actively involved in politics yourself, did you?

DIRK COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: You didn't?

DIRK COETZEE: I did not Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And that appears at page 129 Volume 2 Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, could you please help me in this regard?  Suppose he was released and it was ascertained that he had head injuries, that could reflect on an assault by the security police on a prisoner?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: How could that be of political significance as far as the whole country is concerned or the government is concerned?

DIRK COETZEE: I think one could just look at the Sizwe Kondile - Steve Biko case and Mthimkhulu case Mr Chairman, I can't explain it further than that, it would have - that he was a person of standing in the black community, it would have caused a huge uproar if it was proved that he was ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Good ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was it feared that he might die of this injury or suffer irreparable damage?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: And that would reflect politically on the government of the day?

CHAIRPERSON: The security police.

DIRK COETZEE: On the security police and of course the National Party government.