Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I think so, because according to the information that we got through the comrades was that they, the people who are using that Gomolo coast, were the people who are involved in that plan.  You see.  Now, the fact that these people were camping in the coast in question, to us from Flagstaff, we saw them as targets.
	It is unfortunate that they were not.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you accept, today do you accept that they were not?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I accept that.

MR SMUTS: When you arrived at Port St Johns and met up with your comrades there, you  sought identification from them, of these rightwing whites, these counter-revolutionary whites, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Did they give you confirmation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, they told us right in town, there are targets there, but it is unfortunate that we cannot allow, in fact they advised us not to carry out there in town, because of the reason that I have mentioned before.  That is the reason that we went to that coast.

MR SMUTS: And the reason why you couldn't pursue the identified targets in town, was because of a security risk to yourselves?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I can say so.  Another thing is that we wanted not to confuse our programme with anything.

MR SMUTS: What do you mean by that?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: An interference of policemen or TTF members, that would now change the trend of our aim of going there.

MR SMUTS: Were there holiday makers in Port St Johns itself, in the town, who were not counter-revolutionaries, but were white?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: In the town?  The tourists?

MR SMUTS: Were there holiday makers?  You said you passed people, white people on the way there.  I am asking you because it was the Easter season, were there holiday makers in Port St Johns who were white, but who were not part of the counter-revolutionary element?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I don't know whether there were, because I am not the bona fide of that area.  I cannot know whether this one is there for holiday, this one is a resident.  I can't explain that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Smuts, maybe one can ask the question in a slightly different way.  Those white people you met on the way, on the National road which you say proceeds to Durban, why did you not attack them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We didn't attack them because they were not our targets.  As I have said earlier on, we went to Port St Johns, specifically to Port St Johns because of the information that we had heard before.
	Now the people who were carrying out their boats from their holiday to their respective areas, were not the part of our programme.

ADV SANDI: Would you say they were also counter-revolutionaries, as you call them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I cannot say that.  I cannot say that because those people were moving.  We knew that they were not of that area, of that eastern ...(indistinct) area.

ADV DE JAGER: But these people staying in a bungalow there, weren't they holiday makers?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I don't know where they stayed.  The point that I want to prove, is that on the way to Port St Johns, on the way to comrade Pumelele and Fundisile, we met with many white people who were from the holiday.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but you have told us in evidence that these people were staying in a bungalow and they went out for the day and they would return the afternoon.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: According to the information that I got from the people who surveilled the area, that there was a certain cottage or a bungalow where the occupants have gone for fishing somewhere.

ADV DE JAGER: So they have gone for fishing.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: In fact, it was not specific that they had gone for fishing, to me it came as if they had gone to another area, another beach around there, not specially for fishing.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you ask these informers, the informant whether they were holiday makers or whether they were staying permanently there?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  I didn't.  Since I had that information that they were using that area, that coast as their maybe springboard, as their place where they are planning their operation, you see, I took it as if white people who are there, are the ones that we needed.

CHAIRPERSON: Were your informants there when you went to look at this bungalow?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Come again.

CHAIRPERSON: The people who were supposed to give you this information, as to who the infiltrators are, the same people who told you they used this coast line as their springboard?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they there at the time when you went to look at this bungalow?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, both of them if my memory serves me well.  Pumelele and Guleni, and the third one was Vuyani, they went for the surveilling.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Is it them that told you that the occupants of this bungalow which had been referred to, had gone to another area?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: They came up with the information that they have heard there from the people who are maybe doing their job there, that the occupants of a certain bungalow have gone to another area.  They will be back.

MR SMUTS: So it was your intention, was it, until the operation was complete, it was constantly and throughout your intention to target counter-revolutionary whites?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Our intention was to target the counter-revolutionary whites, yes.

MR SMUTS: In Port St Johns itself, although as I understand you, your informers, your comrades from Port St Johns, were able to identify such people, correct me if I am wrong, were they able to identify such people?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, they identified some of the people.

MR SMUTS: But you decided not to attack those who had been specifically identified as falling within your target category?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The reason that the advice of - the police, the local police and the TTF members there, caused us to agree with their advice that we should hit on another area, which is of course similar to the one in the sense that even there the same people were using that coast as, to carry out the same aspirations of counter-revolution.

MR SMUTS: But, can I just get confirmation, although specific people who fell within your category, were identified within Port St Johns, you decided for your own reasons, not to attack those people who had been identified as falling within your target?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.  They mentioned one person, they did mention one.  They did identify one.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, the occupants who were absent from that bungalow, were they also identified as infiltrators?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: At the time, to me?  To me, they were the people who have infiltrated, according to the information that that area, that coast is used by the people of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let's talk about that specific bungalow.  Why was that specific bungalow singled out?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The problem was that white people were scarce there, I understand according to their own information, that some of the bungalows were not occupied.  I think this is, that was the one, that was the first and the last bungalow that was occupied by the white people at the time, if my analysis is good because they told me that they have moved all around, they didn't see any white people there, it is only the bungalow that they had that information that the occupants have gone to that, to another area.