Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR BERGER: So are you telling the Committee that after you saw Sonny and Timothy at the stadium, you never saw them again from the time you left the stadium until the time you came back to kwaMadala?

JACK MBELE: There is only one person I saw, that person is Stals.

MR BERGER: That's Timothy.

JACK MBELE: That's him.

MR BERGER: Where did you see him again after the stadium?

JACK MBELE: When we were approaching Boipatong I saw him.

MR BERGER: And after you had entered Boipatong, did you see him again?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: So it's your evidence that you entered Boipatong;  you went to Slovo Park; you went back to kwaMadala - all the time you were with people who you didn't know very well, is that your evidence?

JACK MBELE: I'm saying I knew three people and I was the fourth one, and other men from the hostel, I knew them but their names just went out of my mind.

MR BERGER: The three people who you knew, Makuka, Simon and Gose, were they your friends?

JACK MBELE: Yes they were my friends.

MR BERGER: What is Makuka's full names?

JACK MBELE: I only know his surname, his surname is Selayi.

MR BERGER: And where is he today?

JACK MBELE: He died last year on the 30th of December.

MR BERGER: And Simon, what is his surname and where is he today?

JACK MBELE: His surname is Molebatsi, he also died last year.

MR BERGER: Gose, what is his surname and where is he today?

JACK MBELE: His surname if Mapondo, he also died in 1996.

MR BERGER: You were referred to the unsigned affidavit of Andries Nosenga, paragraph 4.  The reference in that paragraph is made to Reuben.  Do you know anyone by the name of Reuben?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Would that be Tebogo Reuben Magubane, applicant no 3?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Themba, did you know any Themba who was part of the attack on Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: How many Themba's did you know who were in the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Berger - did you see this Themba ...(indistinct)

JACK MBELE: I do not understand you quite well Sir.  He was present in Boipatong, but he has since died.

MR BERGER: Which Themba are you referring to?

JACK MBELE: I'm referring to Themba Mabote.

MR BERGER: Were there other people by the name of Themba in the attacking group of Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I only knew that Themba.  I do not know whether there were other Themba's in that group, I only knew this Themba.

MR BERGER: Did you know any person by the name of Lucky who was involved in the attack on Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir the individual - you say the people in your group, there are only three that you knew by names, three I think you said?

JACK MBELE: Those are the boys from the township.  The other men who were in our company I do not know by names, but there was another one called Damarra Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the four boys from the townships that you've mentioned, including Damarra, they're all dead?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There were other persons in the group that you only knew by sight?

JACK MBELE: That is correct My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Are those individuals still alive?

JACK MBELE: Madala was destroyed and we went into the township to look for alternative accommodation.  I do not know whether they're still alive or not.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele I'll ask you again, are you sure you don't know anybody by the name of Luck, who was present in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

JACK MBELE: When we went to Boipatong I did not see Lucky, but on the 18th I heard him talking, and it looked like he was present according to what he was saying.

MR BERGER: Who is this person called Lucky, what is his surname?

JACK MBELE: It's Sonny Michael Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Your friend?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi also known as Lucky?

JACK MBELE: That is correct My Lord.

MR BERGER: He's known as Lucky Stikinyao, isn't that right?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Makuka, you've already told us, he was with you.

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Dondo is you.

JACK MBELE: Yes, that's me.

MR BERGER: Are you sure that you were not in a group of people moving towards Boipatong, which included Tebogo Magubane, Themba Mabote, Sonny Mkwanaze, Makuka, and yourself Dondo?

JACK MBELE: I would not say I was not in their group, but I want to explain this to you Mr Berger ...

MR BERGER: Yes, I'm listening.

JACK MBELE: The people that you have mentioned their names, when we left the hostel from, when we left for Boipatong we were in a large group, and we went into the township still being in this large group.  When the shooting began between ourselves and the Defence Units, we managed to chase after them.  That is when we started forming our squads, but we were not more than 15 in number, we were about 11.  This is the group that included Makuka, Vusi, Simone, myself and the other gentlemen that I've referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who is Vusi?

JACK MBELE: I was saying Gose.

MR BERGER: You see, according to the state witness Majose, Sonny Michael Mkwanazi or Lucky, was also seen at this house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Streets.  Are you saying that it's just co-incidence that the two of you are friends;  that two of you are referred to in the affidavit of Andries Mosenga;  that two of you are identified by the state witness Bujose as having been in that house at the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Street, all of this is just co-incidence, it never happened?

JACK MBELE: They've made a big mistake, such a thing never happened.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I enquire, Exhibit J reflects the houses along the various streets in Boipatong.  I've been informed that the houses coloured in an orange koki pen were damaged.  Those marked with a pink koki were people who were killed, and in green where people were injured.  Some houses have all three colour markings.  My Exhibit J indicates the house at Bafokeng and Shlube, the corner thereof, as just having an orange coloration or code.  My learned friend has referred to that house.  If we're referring to the same thing, as where two people were in fact killed.  Can I just ask for clarification please Mr Chairman?

MR BERGER: My learned friend is correct, the map is not accurate, it should also have a pink spot, and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, it turned out last time that the colouring on this map is not accurate, and I think attempts were going to be made to ensure that we'll have a bigger map which will truly reflect the position.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The house that's been referred to, this is the house that is marked with, is it a cross?

MR BERGER: That is the house, yes Chairperson.
	Mr Mbele the day after the attack on Boipatong, did you discuss what you had done, with your friends Sonny and Timothy?

JACK MBELE: Yes, there were many of us and each one was relating his contribution or what he did.

MR BERGER: And what did Sonny say he had done?

JACK MBELE: He told me that he broke windows at houses.

MR BERGER: According to the state witness Mr Maloi, he says - or said, that the day after the attack Sonny Mkwanazi, who was accused no 65, said that he had raped somebody in Boipatong.  Did he tell you that?

JACK MBELE: I did not hear such a thing.

MR BERGER: Did anybody tell you that they had raped or sexually assaulted any of the women of Boipatong, or did you hear from others that they had heard that people had been raped in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: If I remember well, I heard that in Pretoria during the court proceedings.  It was Gose, when he said he saw Lucky raping.

MR BERGER: Where - did he say where he saw Lucky or Mr Mkwanazi raping, which part of Boipatong were they in when he saw Lucky raping?

JACK MBELE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Who else did you hear of who had raped women or sexually assaulted women in Boipatong?