Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, I thought it was and I thought that Mr Lamey was going to, as he said, he was going to put across his clients' version and ask what happened and the like.  Maybe he's hoping to elicit some contradictions and good luck to him.

MR LAMEY: Well, let me then put it to you Mr Mamasela, that it didn't happen this way, that both you and Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole were alone in the minibus and that you received, prior to that, directions from Captain Roelf Venter as to where to park and where to wait and that you were not involved physically in the taking of the people from the airport.  That they were directed by Captain Roelf Venter with the other Port Elizabeth security people towards the minibus in an apparent normal manner.

JOE MAMASELA: That's a long statement, I don't know where to start by answering it but I will say that's a lie, I was there and I took part, I participated in the abduction of the people.

MR LAMEY: Just a minute Mr Chairman.  Your evidence is, do I understand you correctly that Mogoai and Koole didn't take part in the grabbing of the people at the airport?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I've never said Koole and Mogoai.  You read Afrikaans, you're an Afrikaner, read my statement and you'll understand what I said.

MR LAMEY: No, I just want to confirm that ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: No, read it, I never said that.

MR LAMEY: That's your evidence.

JOE MAMASELA: I've never said that.  Read my evidence in Afrikaans.

MR LAMEY: Now I want to put it to you just lastly Mr Mamasela, and I'm going to tell you why, that your version is improbable in caparison to theirs and the reason why it's improbable is that it is improbable that only two people would, as you describe it you and Captain Venter only, attempt to abduct three people who could possibly have resisted viciously and could have escaped.
	One would have thought that more people would have been involved or that some other method was used in order to get them into the minibus.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mamasela.
	Did he not say Mr Lamey, those who were sitting in the kombi were waiting there for any resistance to happen and there was some sort of back-up team in the event of resistance?

MR LAMEY: Ja, but that must be compared with the other evidence Mr Chairman, that is there was resistance then this whole thing would have been abandoned because the whole purpose was not to create this attention in front of a public place like an airport and that is why I put it to him that his version is also improbable.

ADV SANDI: But my understanding is that a resistance was one of those things that were contemplated and in
the event of resistance the gentlemen who were sitting in the kombi would just come up and put in some more manpower.

JOE MAMASELA: Well Mr Chairman, if that is so, my contention is and I want to put it to you that that is still improbable because such a think would have created consternation in front of a public place like the airport.
	That there was another method devised and that was this, as described by Mr Koole and Mr Mogoai in comparison with the version of Herman du Plessis, that these people were fearless, they were merely approached by the security policemen at the airport and they were just directed towards the minibus knowing, them knowing that it's the security police of Port Elizabeth that they're now dealing with.

ADV SANDI: You do not want to reserve that improbability for argument?

MR LAMEY: Yes Mr Chairman, I'll do that also.  Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: If you feel strongly about it, pursue it, just pursue it.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	You see Mr Mamasela, and the version of, if you look at the version of Mr Mogoai and Koole, is that these people were just in a sort of apparent normal way directed by the security police towards the minibus and there was evidence by Mr Herman du Plessis that the PEBCO 3 people were fearless of the security police.
	And I want to put it to you, what happened there at the airport is, they were set up by a trap, they expected to meet someone at the airport and when they arrived at the airport and at the airport building the security police of Port Elizabeth just told them: "Well, come with us" and probably also showed their appointment certificates to them and said: "Just come with us" and they did that, they did that without resistance because they didn't fear the security police.

JOE MAMASELA: That's a very outrageous perception, to think that there is any black political leader who ...[indistinct] did not fear security police during those apartheid years and I find highly improbable for a policeman, a group of policemen to arrest four people without causing a commotion, that to me would be highly improbable if that was to happen the way you wanted it to happen.
	I found it quite sound, it's a militaristic approach whereby you use an element of surprise to surprise your adversary and you quickly apprehend him and you are gone, that is precisely what we did.  We carried out that operation with military precision.  
	And then we had some contingence planning in case plan A fails then plan B will be put into operation and plan B was that backing and the backup of backup teams.  So fortunately for us Plan A worked because the element of surprise was on our side.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Lamey is also saying and I think that will be the import of his question, would be that surely plan B could not have been executed without causing a huge consternation at the airport and attracting a lot of attention.  I mean, with reinforcement coming everybody would see that there was something going on.

JOE MAMASELA: There was that possibility and likelihood Mr Chairman, but I think the security police were capable of, if that thing happens they were capable of doing something else.  Maybe detaining these people and/or maybe saying that the people were trying to run away, they were fighting with the police and maybe shoot them and leave some AK47's next to them as it was the norm with the so-called Guguletu 7.
	I think there were some other ...[indistinct] with the security police of Port Elizabeth because they were also there but they were not part of our contingent, they were standing by.  So I don't know what was planned there but I knew there was plan B, backup team was there but fortunately plan A worked.  
	So I cannot speculate on plan B or what was going to happen because I'm not here to give speculations, I'm here to give facts as I saw them.

MR LAMEY: I want to put it to you further Mr Mamasela, if they were capable of covering their tracks afterwards they could have also just have apprehended them at the airport, take them away, kill them and cover their tracks afterwards.

JOE MAMASELA: It's not as easy as you say, security policemen of Port Elizabeth go to the airport, they grab somebody in front of, in full view of the people and then they go and kill them and cover it.  It's not as easy as you say because we worked with the security police, particularly the white security policemen.
	They worked with the fear of Biko, always they will say: "We don't want to have another Biko, we don't want to have another Biko".  Even if they assault a detainee they were always afraid of another Biko scene happening.  Even Stanza Bopape, when he died accidentally in their hands at John Vorster, they had dispose of his body and pretend that he escaped because they were afraid of the Biko scenario.  
	So it's not like they way you put it, that they had a free license to kill ...[indistinct] without any fear, they also feared.