Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explained Sir, there are things that I was supposed to know and I didn't have to know everything else.  I was only leader, Vice-Chairman within the youth and I would not have known who was doing what and who was not doing what, that was not my responsibility.

MR BERGER: You were a political leader were you not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was Deputy Chairperson within the youth of the IFP.

MR BERGER: And when the chairperson wasn't available then you acted as chairperson as well?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: This problem of IFP members being killed by ANC members was a political problem, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: And the political structures in the Kwamadala Hostel of the IFP knew very well who was in the political structures of the ANC in Boipatong.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that Sir.

MR BERGER: I'm putting it to you that you're not telling the truth and I'll tell you why.  Mr Ernest Tsotso's house, the Chairperson of the ANC in Boipatong was attacked at a time when you were already an IFP leader in the hostel, how is it possible that you would not have known about that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explained Sir, that I was not concentrating on politics considering that I was not educated.  These matters require educated people, not people like me and therefore I would not have known exactly how these things were happening.

MR BERGER: Are you telling the Committee that you went, you deliberately went to Boipatong to kill as many people as you possibly could in the hope that some of those who you killed would have been ANC members responsible for the violence against IFP members?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: You did not discriminate at all, whoever you saw was a potential target and had to be killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: And even if that meant killing IFP supporters or PAC supporters who also lived in the township, so be it, was that your plan?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Our aim was to go to the township to attack the ANC.

MR BERGER: It wasn't every ANC member that you wanted to kill, am I right?  It was only those ANC members who were in the self-defence units that you wanted to kill because they were responsible for the death of IFP members?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I am saying these people resided at Boipatong, they were ANC and these very same SDU members were also ANC.  These are the people who were necklacing our people.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, listen to my question.  There were IFP members in the township, there were PAC members in the township, you didn't want to kill them, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, as I have explained to you before that I did not have knowledge as to the existence of IFP members in the township.  I did explain this earlier on.

MR BERGER: I might just tell you that there was no Dlamini who was killed in Boipatong so your evidence about your girlfriend and her family seems to stand alone but let me come back to my question.  You only wanted to kill certain ANC members, is that right?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry to interrupt but with respect, has this not been canvassed fairly fully before?  We've had the witnesses answer, there was an attack, innocent people, when I say innocent people, those who weren't ANC might well have been killed but this has been dealt with at length by Mr Berger, with respect, and I don't where it's getting us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I want to get clarity from this witness that it was not all ANC members that he wanted to kill, it was only ANC members who were in the self-defence units.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think the issues that you're now dealing with have been sufficiently canvassed.  The record speaks for itself in this regard.

MR BERGER: I'd like to show you a map Mr Mthembu, of Boipatong.
	Chairperson, we've made copies of this map.  Unfortunately we haven't made enough and I would ask my learned friends to share.  We have five copies of this map - the reason that it won't help to make copies of these is because we have coloured in in pink the houses where people were killed, we've indicated in green where people were injured and we've indicated in orange where houses were damaged but no-one was killed or injured.  If I could hand this up as Exhibit I.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you discuss the contents of that map with your colleagues?

MR BERGER: No, Chairperson, I haven't.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the status of that map?  Does that depict the area as it was then or as it is now or has there been no change?

MR BERGER: As it was then.  It's taken from the evidence before the Criminal Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Pretorius, have you had sight of this map?

MS PRETORIUS: I've seen a similar map.  My learned friend, Mr Strydom has one so I have had a look at it, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Do you have any objections to this document being placed before us?

MS PRETORIUS: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you have any objection to this document being placed before us?

MR BRINK: No, no objection for what it's worth.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, shall we have that map?
MAP OF BOIPATONG HANDED UP

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm told it should be J not I.
	Mr Mthembu, I'd like you to have a copy of this map.  Mr Mthembu, to give you directions, you'll see at the top there is Amatolo Street.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I can see that.

MR BERGER: That is north.  On the side, on the righthand side of this map you will see a whole lot of little houses dotted in pink, that is Slovo Park, it's on the eastern side of the township.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Kwamadala Hostel is on the western side of the township, not depicted on this map.  It's to the west, in other words to the left of the map and you can see in the middle of the township there is a street called Umzumvubu, do you see that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: And that's the street you say you entered the township on?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: Now all the houses dotted in pink, those are houses where people were killed.  The houses that are dotted in green, and some houses have both pink and green, the ones dotted in green are where people were injured but not killed.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt.  This plan was also handed to me.  On the righthand side of the plan of the plan the informal settlements are shown, Slovo Part, and all those houses are marked pink.  Now I can give the Committee the assurance that there were some killings but not in all those houses, that's not correct.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I was coming to that.  The reason is that not one house in Slovo Park was left unscathed.  The houses - it's not possible to identify in which houses people were killed but the majority of people who were killed were killed in Slovo Park.  I'm sure my learned friend will confirm that.  It's not to suggest that in every house in Slovo Park someone was killed.  We don't know in which houses they were killed but most people were killed there and not a single house was left unscathed.

CHAIRPERSON: These pink dots, do they depict the houses, all the houses in Slovo Park?

MR BERGER: Yes, they do.

CHAIRPERSON: Because on it's face this map then indicates that in each an every house in Slovo Park people were killed.

MR BERGER: Indeed, and I have to explain that.

CHAIRPERSON: But in each and every house in Slovo Park people were killed?