Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I'd say that the PAC also have certain communists - they still support communist positions and people - I cannot mention names.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Well, some of the PAC's people was trained together with the ANC members in certain African states - I'm not quite up to scratch with regards to the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: That's why I'm asking, you were looking for a party that did not support communism and according to your own opinion, the ANC was one and that's why you wanted to fight against the ANC?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But therefore I asked the question - what with regards to the PAC?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I've listened to some of the PAC people and as far as I know they are also socialistically inspired.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you, Chairperson.
	When you became a member of the AWB did you complete a membership form?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes I completed a membership form.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And the last thing that you're confirming on that form if you look at Exhibit 7 in bundle A, if I remember correctly, or item 7 in bundle A - Exhibit A page 7.  The last thing which is marked with an asterisk "I confirm herewith that I'm a White South African Citizen" is that correct?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And if you look at page 8 and I read for you second paragraph from the bottom: "To promote among Afrikaner Boers a powerful awareness of their white descendant and heritage, the blood relationship and nationalism and the importance of racial purity"  Did you find it?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I saw it as they wanted us whites, our ancestry such as Van Riebeek etc, that was what they were referring to - that we are proud of our ancestry and where we are coming from - that's how I see it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But let's stay with this racial purity - what do you understand with regards to that?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Let me put it simply to you - if you look at the German's in the second world war and their policy - they put the Jews in concentration camps and a great amount of Jews died - I did not see it - the fact that the AWB would put black people in concentration camps and that they would starve them to death.  That's not how I saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if Jan van Riebeek believed in racial purity.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If you want me follow it up, I will Chairperson.
	Let's put it this way, sir.  One of the previous applicants did testify to this - you would allow a black person in your Volkstaat if he comes to work for you, is that correct?  Do you identify with that statement?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I did not see it in such a way, how I see it is that we would allow black people and they'd be free to live there if they wanted to but they would not have the political vote.

CHAIRPERSON: Could they have stayed anywhere they want?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: As far as I'm concerned yes, they could go anywhere they want and I as a citizen of that republic, if my passport is in order, I would also be allowed to travel outside of the Volkstaat.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And a member of the AWB - could they marry a black woman?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If it was his choice?  Yes, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If it's his choice - you did not have a problem with that?  That's the general policy of the AWB?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If that's their policy then it is so.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But is this the policy of the AWB, do they put it like that in these documents?  Sir, you were a member, not myself.

UNKNOWN: I think to be fair to the witness, you started off asking him his views and now you're shifting to the AWB but just as long as you can distinguish.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I apologise, Mr Chairman.
	Let's clarify this, let's forget about how you see it, let's hear what was the AWB's view of this?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The AWB's view, sir?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: A member of the AWB can marry a black woman.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I do not believe that he would be held in high regard if he married a black member.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he still be a member?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I believe they would not expel him immediately but I think if he did that - he would probably retire from the AWB himself.  If you asked my personal opinion, about it, no Chairperson, I would not marry a black woman.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Further aspects - you did not know anything about the Bree Street bomb?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I did not know anything about the Bree Street bomb.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When's the first time you heard about the Bree Street bomb?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The Bree Street bomb, the first time I heard about that was on television and that was, if I remember correctly, that Sunday evening at the game farm, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did you not discuss it?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: There were discussions that it was a powerful bomb - we were surprised at the amount of damage it caused.  Some of us wondered who did it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Let me just stop you there.  At that stage when you heard that report, wasn't there speculation that the SACP, the South African Communist Party was behind the bomb explosion?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I did not hear any such speculation - I thought it was the right-wing party that was responsible.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But on the news, they did not speculate about who planted the bomb?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember the specific news reports, maybe I imagined that it might have been in later news reports but if I remember correctly, there was speculation that it was a right-wing organisation that was responsible for it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But it did not become known from the talk amongst the people at the game farm?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Monday morning you went to Koesterfontein?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes Monday morning I went to Koesterfontein, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: On whose request?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: General Nico Prinsloo told me that I must go to Koesterfontein on a mission and I went together with Jan de Wet and I left the game farm together with Jan de Wet.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When you arrived there, this is now Koesterfontein, did you see that this trailer was changed into a bomb or this trailer is a bomb, let me put it that way?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: At Koesterfontein I found Cliff Barnard and he told me and Jan that we are going to go on a bomb mission to Germiston.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did Nico Prinsloo indicate to you what would be the target of that bomb?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson, I did not know what the target was to be.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Who indicated to you what the target would be?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The target I learned about when I was together with Etienne Le Roux in the car and he told me that it would be a taxi stand in Germiston.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So Etienne Le Roux knew before he arrived at Germiston that the attack would be a taxi stand then?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And a taxi stand which is used mainly by black drivers and black members of the public?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So it was a black target?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Similar to the instruction given with regards to the firebombs - black targets?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That was not pertinently put like that but the instruction was definitely taxi stands.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And in 1994 - a taxi rank would you consider a black target or not?