Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, I will be calling the next witness.  I propose to first finish with the Flagstaff people and as such I will be calling Lungile Mazwi.  Could he be sworn in please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazwi, what language would you prefer to use?

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, he has just indicated that he will speak Xhosa, he is not very proficient in English.

CHAIRPERSON: I would suggest he uses the earphones.

LUNGILE MAZWI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mazwi, your home is in Flagstaff, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Correct.

MR ZILWA: And during 1993 you were residing in Flagstaff?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, during that year, were you a member of - during that time, were you a member of any political organisation in Flagstaff?  Yes, any political organisation?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I was a member of the ANC Youth League and SACP.  Yes, I was a member of ANC Youth League and the SACP.

MR ZILWA: Were you holding any position of leadership or responsibility in any of those organisations, in other words, were you an office bearer in any of those organisations?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I was in the Executive Committee of the ANC Youth League at the Flagstaff Branch.

MR ZILWA: We have already been told by Mr Maxhayi, the applicant before you, that in Flagstaff there were some SDU's or Self Defence Units which had been established.  Were you aware of the existence of such?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Correct.

MR ZILWA: Were you by any chance a member of any of those SDU's?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Were you holding any position of leadership or responsibility in any of those SDU's?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was just an ordinary member.

MR ZILWA: Right.  Now to cast your memory back to the events of April 1993, at the time of the unfortunate assassination of Chris Hani, the South African Communist Party leader, do you remember the events surrounding that killing?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I can remember some of the events.

MR ZILWA: During that period, is it correct that you were in the Flagstaff region?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, we have been told by Mr Maxhayi who has already testified, that shortly after the killing of Chris Hani, or a few days thereafter, a decision was taken by the Flagstaff Self Defence Unit of which he was a member, that there should be a retaliation by the SDU for the murder of Chris Hani.

LUNGILE MAZWI: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it correct that he testified that only he and the present witness took the decision?  It wasn't taken by the whole body of the SDU?

MR ZILWA: Let's rephrase that.  Is it correct ...

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, please repeat the question, it is not clear to me.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a decision to retaliate against white people because of the assassination of Mr Hani, do you recall that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took that decision?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We agreed, we were three comrades from Flagstaff.  It was Nyalukana, Maxhayi and myself, Mazwi.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It was Maxhayi and Nyalukana and myself, Mazwi.

MR ZILWA: Thank you.  Now, what motivated you to take this decision to retaliate for the murder of Chris Hani?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It is because there was some disturbance, it actually disturbed us, the manner he was killed, that was one thing that motivated us to take that decision.

MR ZILWA: If I understood you correctly, you say you were disturbed emotionally and mentally, did you say that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The way this whole thing happened, yes, it is like that.

MR ZILWA: Now, to make sure I understand you, are you saying the effect of the killing of Chris Hani, had subjected you to emotional and mental trauma and which motivated you to take the decision?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Right, now I want to save time as much as possible, you have been listening to the evidence that was given by Mr Maxhayi.

LUNGILE MAZWI: Correct.

MR ZILWA: He has given a long and complete narration of the events that took place.

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes.

MR ZILWA: You have also deposed to an affidavit which in essence is a confirmation of the events as already testified about by Mr Maxhayi?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Do you abide by the averments by Mr Maxhayi, as to your motivation and the manner in which the operation of the unfortunate killing of the Weakley's and the commission of the offences against the others, that it was done?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: There is a suggestion that in fact your actions were not motivated by any political agenda, it was just pure racial prejudice or hatred on your part, which had nothing to do with politics.  What do you say to that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I disagree with that, if that is a suggestion that we were being racist.  That is not true.

MR ZILWA: Mr Maxhayi has testified as to the objective, the political objective which he wished to attain.  Do you agree with what he has stated amend thereto?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: You will remember that in your criminal trial before the Supreme Court of Transkei, you denied any involvement in the killing of the Weakley's and in fact your defence was that of an alibi, you claimed to have been somewhere else at the time of the commission of the offences, ie the killing of the Weakley's, do you remember that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I can still remember that.

MR ZILWA: Is it correct that you were not telling the truth to the Court and the truth is the one that has been told before this Commission by Maxhayi and which you confirm?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I did not tell the truth in the criminal court.

MR ZILWA: Do you affirm that in fact what you have told this Commission today, is in fact what took place?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, it has been alleged by Maxhayi that on the day in question, when you went to ambush the Weakley's you were personally in possession of a pistol.  Do you remember Maxhayi saying that and do you confirm it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Just on that aspect of it, on which Maxhayi could not really come out clearly on all details, since he claimed not to have direct knowledge, could you please tell this Commission as to how and where you obtained such a pistol?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I can explain that.

MR ZILWA: Could you please do that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I brought this pistol from town on a Monday.

MR ZILWA: Where did you obtain it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As I was working with Vuyani at the Workshop, when I left him in town, he was about to meet Mr Maxhayi, they came to me and I brought the pistol.  They came to fetch me at home.
	On a Monday, I was in town as we were working together at the Workshop with Vuyani Nyalukana repairing radio's.  On a Monday when I left him there, when he was about to meet Mr Maxhayi, I decided to take a pistol and I took it home and they came to fetch me on their way to Port St Johns.

MR ZILWA: Let me see if I get you correctly.  In other words, as you have already stated, the arsenal of weapons was being kept by Nyalukana and you also had access thereto, do I understand you correctly?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: And from that arsenal of weapons which was being kept by Nyalukana and to which you had access, you selected this pistol that you used in taking down to Port St Johns with you?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I decided to take that pistol.

MR ZILWA: You have no direct knowledge as to how that pistol had come into the arsenal of the weapons which were in Nyalukana's custody?

LUNGILE MAZWI: All I knew was that the arms belonged to the organisation.  I don't know how did they reach the place.