Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, was anything done by Trevits orby the Security Unit against the ANC in Kwandabele as targets?

ANSWER: Not as targets, I'm not sure about any particularTrevits' targets identified there, but the comrades and otherswho destabilised the area would certainly have been arrested,were brought to court, in this regard they did therefor counterthe ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: Some members of the ANC were arrested and broughtto court within Kwandabele, is that what you are saying?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: I find it quite strange Brigadier for you tosay this because in quite a number of applications and in yourapplication as well, when you were asked a question yesterdayor the other day about another route which you
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would have followed other than killing, they you said the killingwas the only thing because if people were arrested and detainedthen you would not be able to preserve the information that yougot out of them and the informers would be exposed.   Why wasthis an exception in Kwandabele?

ANSWER: I also said that these were high profile persons,people for instance involved in school boycotts were not in thiscategory.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you know Mr Pete Ntuli personally?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Have you ever seen him before?

ANSWER: Yes I did see him, I knew what he looked like.

<UNKNOWN>: What would you say his age was?

ANSWER: Probably somewhere in his 40's.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: : Do I understand from that that the familydoes not want you to put anything to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That is so Mr Chairman and members of the Committee,I consulted with them during the tea-break.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : In that case Brigadier, you have consistentlymaintained that one of the objectives of Mbkhoto in destabilisingthe Kwandabele community was to encourage school boycotts.   Isit not probably true that Mbkhoto's objective was to crush schoolboycotts as they were perceived by Kwandabele Cabinet to furtherthe cause of the ANC mobilising the youth against independence?

ANSWER: I have also said Chair that I have informationof a particular case where Pete Ntuli and Mbkhoto with sjamboksand knopkerries, chased children and teachers out of a particularschool.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the reason for thrashing the kidsand
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the teachers was it for purposes of encouraging a boycott?

ANSWER: I could only deduce that he did not want thechildren to be at school.

JUDGE WILSON: : Were they conducting a boycott at the schoolwhen he arrived?

ANSWER: No they were in the school with their schoolbooksand so on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Is it not true that Mr Ntuli was concededby the South African Government as a thorn in its flesh as hehad actually overstepped the mark.   He had been put there totry and encourage the Kwandabele community to (indistinct) independence,in fact what he did was he unleashed such terror in the atrocitieswhich he committed against his own community, the whole communityand the turning against the concept of independence?

ANSWER: This is the case, he was in fact a thorn in theflesh for the South African Government, and through his actionshe caused problems for their policy or caused it to fail.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Therefore it would be highly unlikely thatthe Government decided to eliminate him because it suspected himof being a double agent, it simply was sitting with an embarrassingproblem, not that Mr Ntuli was ever perceived by the South AfricanGovernment as being an agent of the ANC or the UDF?

ANSWER: I could grant that that would not have been themain reason for his elimination.   The first reason would havebeen the true reason.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Brigadier Cronje,you said that the main reason for eliminating Pete Ntuli was
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that the effect of his actions were that people turned againstindependence and that this would have caused the apartheid policyof the South African Government to fail, you said that was themain reason for his elimination.   The information available toyou with regard to the ANC links, was that just a small additionalfact?

ANSWER: Yes it was a small additional fact, I also thoughtso.

<UNKNOWN>: Your actions with regard to the elimination,did you consider this to be carrying out the policy of the NationalParty?

ANSWER: Yes I did.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, would your Unit have acted in theKwandabele region?

ANSWER: Yes Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Would there have been incidents where someof your subordinates would have been involved in the eliminationof activists in the Kwandabele area, ANC activists?

ANSWER: No Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier are you quite sure that you remembercorrectly in that regard?

ANSWER: Please repeat the question.

<UNKNOWN>: I'm asking you did any of your subordinatesget involved in...

ANSWER: Sorry yes there were such incidents.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you have knowledge of the incident of theKwandabele 9?

ANSWER: Yes I do remember this, my apologies.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, when it was decided to act againstPete Ntuli, would he already have been a Minister?
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ANSWER: Yes Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman just afford me one second please.  Brigadier the destabilising actions of Ntuli, apart from schoolboycotts, you've given some testimony in this regard but justto get it quite clear in a final way, could you just expand onwhat exactly Pete Ntuli was involved in?

ANSWER: Murder, arson, consumer boycotts, school boycotts.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier did the people of Kwandabele hatePete Ntuli?

ANSWER: Yes they hated him.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember what the reaction was to hisdeath?

ANSWER: After his death the people of Kwandabele hadfestivities for about two months.

<UNKNOWN>: Would his death have helped to achieve theindependence of Kwandabele?

ANSWER: It would have contributed to it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: You've repeated that he has committed somevery, very serious offences this man Mr Ntuli that was known toyou, do you know whether he was ever charged or brought beforethe Court for any of those offences?

ANSWER: He was never charged Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that because it might have been an embarrassmentto the South African Government to have him charged?

ANSWER: Very definitely that would be the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: ...charges related to offences such as murder?

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My attention has been drawn to the fact thatMr Wolf(?) Meintjies is present.   Mr Meintjies do I understand
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that you have come here to participate in these proceedings onbehalf of a client?

MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chair I am on record as the representativeof Captain Van Jaarsveld who is implicated in these proceedingsand in this capacity I would appreciate the opportunity to askquestions to the witnesses if possible.   Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEINTJIES

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier as far as then Captain Van Jaarsveldis being implicated by your testimony, would he have been subjectto the same structures of authority or commanding structures andthe same political motivations as that which you have extensivelysketched to this Committee?

ANSWER: He would have been Chair.   Can I elaborate,he was under my command and I will take responsibility for hisactions in this regard.

MR MEINTJIES: Thank you Brigadier.   Mr Chair I haveno further questions or further reasons to ask questions to thiswitness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEINTJIES

JUDGE WILSON: : I'd just like to clear up the questionof you say Ntuli was never charged.   Were there ever any investigationsheld into his behaviour, into the crimes he committed?