Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The way the reconnaissance was done we could not afford to go and inspect bedrooms.  We were drawn by the number of the people inside the bar.  We found that a lot of people would sit in the bar, at the bar and I was given orders that this place should be attacked on Friday or Saturday.
	We got there and it was closed the first time but that did not stop us from completing our work, we went the next day.  We were even chased the first time but we continued the next day.  I hope I have answered you.

UNKNOWN: I put it to you that there were five people in the bar at the time that you started shooting, can you confirm that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not count the number of people.

UNKNOWN: And you shot Mr Jerling as he was seated at the bar, as is depicted on the photograph.  You shot him through the head and he slumped froward.  He died as a result of a gunshot would to the head.  Did you aim?  Did you take aim when you shot him?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not aim that I'm going to shoot so and so and where.  I knew that there was a comrade shooting through the window.  I know that my weapon was on repeat as I  was shooting, I was just shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't in fact said Mr Prior, that he shot the deceased?

UNKNOWN: Well I'm putting it to him because on the basis of his affidavit he said he entered the bar and shot and if necessary there will be evidence that the shots came from a particular direction that killed Mr Jerling, it was from inside the bar and not from outside.  Mr Jerling wasn't sitting opposite the window through which shots were fired.  He was shot by someone who was in the bar.  On his own admission he was in the bar firing shots, so it's on that that I'm putting to him that he was the person that shot Mr Jerling.

MS GCABASHE: But he has already responded to that.  He has said in his evidence that two of them shot, he doesn't know whether he personally shot that particular victim.

UNKNOWN: I'm suggesting that he is the one because of the evidence, of what I know about the matter.  But yes, I hear what he says, he says he doesn't know.  He just shot indiscriminately.

MS GCABASHE: Well Mr Madasi, Mr Prior is putting it to you that because of where you were standing you must have shot this particular person, maybe you want to comment on that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Thank you Ma'am.  The word perhaps can mean a lot of things, it's ambivalent.  It could be me or my comrade.  I don't know which bullet hit him, whether it was from me or from my comrade.  If he wants to put it that way I can't dispute it.  I don't know how else to explain myself.

UNKNOWN: The political training - and this is my last aspect, the political training that you received before this attack, were you ever informed that APLA had to do something to keep the support of the masses, in other words the people on the ground because of the deaths on the trains, the deaths at vigils, as we've heard in earlier applications or other applications for amnesty.
	Was that communicated to you, that APLA had to strike and strike hard, particularly in the white areas and at white people?  In other words to keep up the support of the masses, the black masses, if I can put it that way?  It was put by some of your leaders at the open of the submissions, that these were called legitimate reprisals.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The battle that APLA was fighting was a battle that APLA saw as being legitimate because it was fighting oppressors.  APLA stood for the people, it was the people's army.  Everything that APLA did it did it to protect the African masses and the masses of AZANIA.  Everything that APLA did was encouraged by the people, Viva APLA people carried on.  The AZANIAN masses supported us in whatever we did.

UNKNOWN: And did that exclude the white people, the white population?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: How so, because APLA was not racist.

UNKNOWN: But you don't answer my question.  You said APLA was to protect the masses of AZANIA, did that - I'm asking you specifically, did that - and I want a specific answer, did that exclude the white population of this country of AZANIA or were they included in the group that was to be protected?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Your question is clear.  Whether we excluded the white people or not, there were white people who sympathised with us.  These people were not labelled on their foreheads that they were supporting us.  Everybody that was white was regarded as an enemy, the oppressor.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer to page 87 of the general submissions made by APLA during October of last year and I refer to the paragraph that follows the sub-heading
"Member of Delegation"
I unfortunately don't know who was speaking at that stage, I think it was Brigadier Mofokeng but I'm not too sure because on the previous page he certainly was giving evidence.  I want to quote and I want you to listen carefully.  The delegate said:   
"I want to add comrade Chairman, that during this time when our people were being killed in the townships, members of APLA, those commanders who were inside the country were very angry, to the extent that they thought that maybe our people will say that they are not protecting them properly or successfully.  That is one of the things which made them to take this decision of mounting these operations.  These operations being the attacks soft civilian targets, white targets"
and I continue with the quote:
"They feel that they feel guilty, referring to the commanders, that if the war is being taken to the black townships they must also take the war to the white areas.  That was one of the reasons"
Now my question is, was that sentiment conveyed to you as part of your political training, as part of being a member of APLA before you embarked on the Yellowwood Hotel attack?  That is what I want to know, was that part of your information that you received or was it not?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: In my understanding right - I'm going to repeat this.  Comrade Sabelo Pama declared 1993 as: "They Year of Great Storms".  Every member of APLA was prepared to participate in the great storm.  We wanted to show the white man that it was wrong to oppress Africans.  The question of whether we were told of white people - I forget exactly what you said, we were not told whatever it is that you're asking.

MS GCABASHE: Mr Madasi, if you'd rather he repeated that last little bit, he can do that so that you can answer him fully.  It's not a problem for him to repeat that last aspect.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: ..[no English translation]

UNKNOWN: The question was, was that information, that quotation, the information that is contained therein, that the war must be taken to the white areas because of the anger of the local commanders at being perceived as not doing enough to protect the black people in the townships, was that part of your political training before you embarked on this specific operation to attack Yellowwood Hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I understand you.  First of all, APLA is a military wing of PAC, APLA stems from PAC.  Decisions made by the PAC which consists of the oppressed people of AZANIA, the decisions that PAC takes affects the decisions that APLA had to take.  PAC has it's own ...[end of tape]
...[inaudible] from the high command.  We were prepared for those orders and we were prepared to fight because we also were of the view that what the white people, the oppressors were doing was wrong.  We had to show the white man that he cannot continue to express because it is not acceptable to the people of AZANIA.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the last sentence.

UNKNOWN: No, you're answered the question, thank you.  I want to ask you finally - and this was despite the fact that there was widespread ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What was the interpreter asking for repetition?