Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

<UNKNOWN>: Its Emma.

<UNKNOWN>: You were taken to England and I understand Mrs Nicholson has been looking after you?

<UNKNOWN>: No, I did not go to England immediately. I went to Sera Leon(?).

<UNKNOWN>: And from there?

<UNKNOWN>: I went to England.

<UNKNOWN>: And you'd been out of the country since the day you left South Africa after you had a discussion with Mrs Mandela and the two men took you to Swaziland and from that date until the Sunday morning 23rd you have been out of South Africa. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: That is true.

<UNKNOWN>: In the evidence and I just make a suggestion for your consideration, I know the extent of Mrs Nicholson's evidence, the affidavit that we have been using is her affidavit where she relates evidence which is being told to her by Mr Cebukhulu.
 I do not propose to lead Mrs Nicholson to repeat hearsay evidence, you have the first hand evidence and that is what I think is what you should accept. But one of the issues to be enquired into and if I may just identify it for the record it is item No. T. The abduction and imprisonment of Katiza Cebukhulu in 1991. This relates to his experience in Lusaka. The import of Baroness Nicholson's evidence will be to the effect that she is a member of Parliament and she is involved in refugee work and charity work around the world and she happens to come across this young man who is languishing in prison and I intend to lead her on that type of evidence.
 I have a suggestion, bearing in mind that they are to fly out of the country this evening. In the ordinary course what should happen is Mr Cebukhulu should be subject to cross-examination by the various representatives. I am wandering whether it wouldn't speed up things, because I don't anticipate her evidence is going to be controversial from the point of view that it implicates on first hand knowledge any personality over here. It might well be to hear her evidence in regard to what she can tell you and your Commissioners about Zambia and when each person then cross-examines you will then have an indication that the cross-examination will only related to the evidence of Mr Cebukhulu. This might speed up things, it might not. I don't know what . . .

CHAIRPERSON: It makes eminent good sense.

<UNKNOWN>: Baroness, it is better when people address Mrs Nicholson that you look at them.
 Baroness would you please give the Commission your full title.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Archbishop, I have a small piece of evidence for you as our lawyer has suggested I found Katiza Cebukhulu by chance in October 1991.

<UNKNOWN>: Baroness, Baroness, Baroness, I need to interrupt you, will you please just give the Commission your title, who you are, they would like to know who you are.

EMMA NICHOLSON: My name is Emma Harriott Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne. I am a liberal democrat working . . .(indistinct) here and before that I was a member of Parliament for ten years and my last task in the House of Commons which ended in April 1st of this year was as Liberal Democrat Spokesperson on Human Rights.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, your involvement with Human Rights and I understand has taken you around the world?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I was for twelve years a director of Save the Children Fund before entering Parliament and I also assisted the Duke of Edinburgh Aware Scheme. Since entering Parliament I have founded five charities, one of which is extremely large and has now dealt with over a six year period, three quarters of a million refugees.

<UNKNOWN>: Arising from . . .

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't know you were so violent.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Laughter. . .

<UNKNOWN>: I am not even going to try and get into this aspect of it, but somehow or another, you have the ability, you have the influence where you are able to sit and talk to Heads of State, correct? Some Heads of State?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: You had occasion to have a discussion with President Kaunda and you had occasion to have discussions with current President whose name is Chiluba. Now you had discussions with President Chiluba and had discussions with President Kaunda and of the many discussions you have had Katiza Cebukhulu came up. Would you in your own language tell the Commission the predicaments in which you found Mr Cebukhulu, whether he was being incarcerated lawful or unlawfully, who was perhaps behind his incarceration and what steps you took to liberate him.

EMMA NICHOLSON: I first met Mr Cebukhulu in the State House President Chiluba as occupying the morning after he was elected as President for the first time in October 1991. I had asked President Chiluba to find him but I had been President Chiluba three hours earlier.
 I had done that because I had been alerted by a British journalist that there was a prisoner in Zambia jail, a Zambian jail who was a foreigner and had not been tried. As a Human Rights Activist therefore I sought to find and help him.

<UNKNOWN>: And then, carry on.

EMMA NICHOLSON: President Chiluba had not heard the name of Katiza Cebukhulu and did not believe that Zambia jails housed non-Zambians for untried foreigners. As a favour to me he kindly agreed to look and several hours later his office called me back and said we found your man, you had better come and meet him.

<UNKNOWN>: And you did that?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I went straight back to State House and spent hours in State House with President Chiluba.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . have information which you acquired from a British journalist that there was present incarcerated in a Zambian jail a foreign national who was imprisoned without trail, the President took an interest in this information and he secured the attendance of Mr Katiza Cebukhulu at State House in Lusaka. Is that correct.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, did you find out how it came about that Katiza Cebukhulu a young man from Zululand ends up in a prison in Zambia, for how long, for how long was he in prison in Zambia?

EMMA NICHOLSON: He left Britain in Zambia in 1994.

<UNKNOWN>: For how long had he been incarcerated in prison in Zambia.

EMMA NICHOLSON: I believe from subsequent information that he was placed in jail in about May 1991.

<UNKNOWN>: He was released in 1994?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Correct.

<UNKNOWN>: On your visit and as a result of your effort. Correct?

EMMA NICHOLSON: As a result of my efforts and the efforts of President Chiluba and the efforts of the United High Commissioner for Refugees in Zambia.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know how it came about that a foreigner would find himself incarcerated without a trial in a prison in Zambia. How did it come about?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I obtained the knowledge from President Kaunda.

<UNKNOWN>: You obtained knowledge from President Kenneth Kaunda?

EMMA NICHOLSON: In 1997 I obtained that knowledge from President, . . . former President of Zambia, Kenneth Kaunda, who I had known for a very long time indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: And what did former President Kenneth Kaunda tell you?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Former President Kenneth Kaunda told me in a recorded interview, when he answered questions that I had created in an interview, that he had offered the ANC Freedom Fighters against apartheid from South Africa full facilities in Zambia to assist with training Freedom Fighters and secondly to assist as a boat hole for ANC or . . .(indistinct) ANC members who causing difficulty in the movement and that is a quotation.

<UNKNOWN>: And then how did it come about that Katiza Cebukhulu found his way behind a locked door for such a long time?