Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, I think I may have to read the whole of the statement in order to put it in it's context, unless I'm going to run the risk of leading him too much I rather want to put to him what this particular witness says and ask him to comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he read this statement?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Unless you want to propose to me or suggest how ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, has he read the statement?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, Mr Chairman, only those portions which were read back to Gqomfa yesterday, I'm sure that he would still recall those portions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well instead of reading all this - we've got it here before us, it will all form part of the typed record all over again.  I want to try and avoid that if we can.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I'll try and help Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you can focus on any particular section ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Does he say that after they left the car, they got into another car and drove away?  When you left the car, you took this car and abandoned it - you've told us you took your things out of it and you wiped it, what did you do next?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We left it at Section 3, I'm not sure about the street.

JUDGE WILSON: No, what did you do after you left it?  What did you do after you left it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I tried to organise transport to take me back to Section C, fortunately I got some public transport - I went back to Site C.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you recall more or less in which road or street in Guguletu at Section 3, you parked the car?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I stay in Section 2, I'm not sure about the streets of Section 3.  As I heard in court when evidence was being given, was that this car was found in NY129.  It was the first time I heard in evidence in court that this car was found there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: In this witness - this person's statement he talks about NY113 facing NY115 in Guguletu, would you know where that is?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: NY15?

NORMAN ARENDSE: NY113 facing NY1115.

JUDGE WILSON: 115 or 1 15, not 1115.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I cannot separate these streets as such because I don't stay there, it is not clear in my mind.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is NY129 near to NY113 or NY115?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know, I'm not sure - I just have a vague idea, I don't know how these streets are positioned.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was there another vehicle involved - in particular I refer to a White Audi with an XA registration?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There was no car in that street.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was there such a car at all before, during or after the Heidelberg Tavern operation?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I saw no such car.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know Dumisa Ntsebeza?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I see him on TV - apparently he's a Commissioner but I don't know him personally.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you sure that it was only you and Maxeba in the vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I'm sure.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now originally there would have been - in other words from the time you left the tavern, there would have been six of you in the vehicle, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, it was six of us in the car.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it your evidence then that the four others who were with you and Maxeba, they were left in Site C in Khayelitsha and you and Maxeba then left to dump the car - as you put it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand the word: "dump" here, must mean abandon is it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When you went to abandon or dump the car, where was the arms and ammunition at that time?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The other comrades that alighted at Site C took the weapons.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So just to confirm then, when you left the car where you left it Section 3 in Guguletu - this is now the blue Opel Record, there were no arms or ammunition in the car, is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There were no weapons.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you tell us whether you or any of your other comrades, whether you know first hand whether any of you wrote down any directions or names of streets or of the Heidelberg Tavern for that matter, on a piece of paper while you were sitting in the car?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I do not remember such.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well specifically, can you - did you write anything on a piece of paper?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I didn't write anything.

ADV SANDI: Who knew the direction Mr Madasi, to get to the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Comrade Maxeba and Luyanda.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Madasi, you were accused number one in the criminal trial, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you were arrested with Mabala your comrade there next to you on your left, at a roadblock in Elliot.   Is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When more or less were you arrested?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: On the 4th of January 1994.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it correct that the keys of the stolen blue Opel Record, those keys were found in your possession at the roadblock when you were arrested?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, I just propose then to continue reading from the prepared statement, if I may request that paragraph 7 then be - a lot of evidence has been given and that it be regarded as suitably amended unless Mr Chairman, you want me to actually effect the amendments and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We are concerned with the evidence he's given here on oath.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.  Paragraph 7 then goes on to read Mr Madasi - you say here
"I deeply regret the loss of life caused by the attack and I ask the families of the victims involved for forgiveness.  As an APLA soldier I carried out my instructions and I did not question them.  I however believed in the armed struggle being waged by APLA and that is why I joined APLA to become a soldier.
As a black person, I was oppressed by white people who had taken our land, our dignity and our pride.  As far as I was concerned, the only way to get all that back was through the armed struggle.  I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I've made full and proper disclosure to this Committee of my involvement in the Heidelberg Tavern incident and I accordingly humbly request that my application for amnesty be granted".
Do you confirm that Mr Madasi?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I confirm it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I don't have any further questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE

ADV SANDI: Mr Madasi, can you please give us more information about this Opel Record.  Who did it belong to, how was it taken from this person, why was it not returned to him?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I heard in court, the owner of the car was Mr Mankanchu.  We took the car from Khayelitsha, we took it forcibly because we wanted to carry out our mission.  In court we heard that the car belonged to Mr Mankanchu - I heard that it court.

ADV SANDI: Why did you have to use a stolen car for such an operation, were you not concerned that whilst you were trying to undertake your operation the police could give chase and find you with those arms in the vehicle even before you carry out the operation?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, there was a lady that was giving us a bit of a struggle when we wanted the car, we told her who we were and what we were about.  We told them that if they're going to go to the police about the car, we're going to abandon the car.  If we were not concerned about the owners of the car we could have burnt the car.  It was clear by our abandoning the car the way we did that we wanted the owners to get it back, this is why we left the car in the manner that we did.