Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I was not a member but only a supporter.  Approximately a week before the attack I was at the meeting which was addressed by Mkhize.  All the residents complained to him that our people were killed by the comrades in Boipatong.  We could not move around freely.  We felt threatened.  We wanted Mkhize to take a decision to act against the comrades.  He said that we must keep ourselves ready for an attack.
	Up till the night of the 17th of June 1992 I heard nothing further about the attack.  The night ..."
Or:
"... That night of the attack the siren went off.  We all went to the stadium.  Women were sent back and we were sent to go and collect our weapons to attack Boipatong.  I went to fetch my 9mm pistol and I went back to the stadium.  Mkhize, Damarra and other Indunas were in control at the stadium.  We all went out to Boipatong.
	In Boipatong I was in Mkhize's group.  We broke down a wire barrier.  We saw a certain amount of people at a distance around fires.  We fired shots in their direction.  They ran away.  We started going into premises.  We actually were looking for SDUs and comrades.  
	The group, including me, went further to attack everybody and everything.  I started shooting people in houses and also outside.  I don't know at which houses.  People jumped through windows.  Some of the group stabbed people.  I cannot remember who stabbed.  I can remember that Samuel Tshabango hit someone with a kierrie.  Some of the people plundered houses.  I took a blanket and a hi-fi set.  
	We then left Boipatong.  I went with the group through the main gate of the hostel.  The next day many policemen came.  They said that the people of Boipatong are blaming us.  We heard that the people of Boipatong wanted to attack us.  We went out to the robots to wait for them.  The police stopped us and we went back to the hostel.
	I cannot remember who gave instructions that the good should be burnt but the loot was burnt that night.  The goods that I took was also burnt.  
	I feel very bad about everything.  I admit that I partook and ask the families who lost members that they must forgive me.  I furthermore confirm the political objective as set out in my original application."
Do you confirm the contents of the agreement as has been translated now to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Affidavit, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry.
	That should be affidavit.  The affidavit as translated to you?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, I agree with the contents of the document.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you meet him for the first time?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I didn't hear the question quite properly, will you repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: The question was, where did you meet him for the first time?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I only saw him at KwaMadala hostel.  He was still young then.  That was after the Boipatong massacre.

MR STRYDOM: As far as you know was he part of the group that attacked Boipatong on the night of the 17th of June 1992?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I started knowing Matanzima after I was arrested for this Boipatong massacre.  That was the first time that I knew Matanzima.  I didn't know him when we attacked the people of Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: He has made an affidavit and in that affidavit he states that before the attack on Boipatong a person by the name of Peens, a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad, came to the hostel and addressed the residents, do you have any knowledge of that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I don't remember that because I didn't know Peens then.

MR STRYDOM: But before the attack, did a policeman come to the hostel and address the residents about an attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I have never seen a policeman there.

MR STRYDOM: You have already indicated that your name is also Ruben.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now in his affidavit he further states that on the night of the attack Caspirs met your group or Caspirs were part at a certain point and a person with the name of Ruben, together with Gachene, Themba Kubeka, Lucky, Sipho, Makuka, Tsamo(?), Dondo and Mkhize got into the Caspirs, do you know anything about this?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well there is nothing like that.  That is untrue.  It's the first time that I hear about that.

MR STRYDOM: From the time that you left the hostel on the night of the attack until you came back, did you ever set foot in a caspir?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong busy with the attack, did you see any white people that also formed part of the attack or of the attackers?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I did not see any whites.  Even at our meeting after we have attacked, there were no whites.  I didn't see any white men.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of the attack did you see any military or police vehicles inside Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of that night did you see any military vehicles?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: The army vehicle I saw was outside.  That is when we returned.

MR STRYDOM: Can you explain more or less where you saw that vehicle when you returned.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I saw that army vehicle on the road that moves from Vanderbijl Park to Sebokeng.  It was       travelling along that road,  it was not inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Themba Mabote?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Did he do anything in particular at the stage when the group left Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, Themba Mabote shot, but I was not aware who he was shooting, but I remember him shooting when we were outside Boipatong, on our return.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Victor Keswa?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know that his nickname in the Vaal Triangle was "The Vaal Monster"?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a leader of a so-called "hit squad"?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I now nothing about the hit squad.  I didn't know whether he was whether he was part of the group or a particular group know as "hit squad".

MR STRYDOM: Did you used to move with him and go out with him out of the hostel to various places?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I don't remember being with Victor, even going to the town.

MR STRYDOM: So were you not a member of the hit squad yourself, of a hit squad?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I have never been a member of the hit squad.  It's the first time that I learn of hit squads, here at the TRC.  I've never been part of the hit squad.

MR STRYDOM: You've indicated already that you fired approximately 13 shots with your 9mm pistol in the township, and  you also said that you went into houses and fired shots there an also outside.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now if I show you map, Exhibit J, can you give an indication where you went into houses?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I'll do so.

MR STRYDOM: The witness points to houses in Papedi Street.
	Do you know how many houses you went into in Papedi?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I don't remember which houses I entered in Papedi but I remember in that street there are houses that I entered.  It might be between two or three houses.

MR STRYDOM: And did you fire shots in the houses in Papedi Street which you went into?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Now do you remember when you fired the shots, did you fire shots towards males, women, children?