Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

CHAIRPERSON: Now therefore I'm asking you, when you attacked him it was in self defence and in defence of your organisation, therefore you did not commit a crime?  Do I understand you correctly?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That was not crime but according to the government of the time what we did was regarded as if we were breaking the law but we the people of the  organisation, we knew that that was not breaking the law because that was also contained in the documents of the ANC that anyone who was trying to destroy our organisation is not to be allowed.  That's what we did, therefore that was not breaking the law.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I know.  I think we all know what the law under the previous government was and the law under the present government, etc.  What I'm trying to establish, because under both laws if a person approached a matter in self defence then it was not a crime, everybody is entitled to defend himself, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is directed at finding out precisely what your position was.  When you hit Mr August, were you attacking him or were you defending yourself?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I was defending myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You were defending yourself because he had this firearm.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I was defending myself and I was also defending my organisation because if I die, if my organisation will lose and die and his intentions would be fulfilled.  I was not attacking him but I was just attacking him because he wanted to destroy my organisation so that his own organisation can be successful.

UNKNOWN: And when you attacked him, did you intend to kill him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That would depend on the situation, that would depend on the attack, but all I was doing, I was just defending myself against him but killing was no-one's intention, it would just happen.

UNKNOWN: But this attack on Mr Majebe, was it planned?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: The attack was not planned but what we did when we saw him, we knew what we were supposed to do about him because if we had planned he would be in the trap from the first time that he was appearing because he was not the only person that we were waiting for.  Anyone from the ANC if he would appear at the time we would do the same with him.

UNKNOWN: So you saw him walking, he went into a certain house and then it was at that stage that you decided to attack him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He went to a certain house and we were watching him and we told ourselves that we had seen him and we were supposed to do something to him.

UNKNOWN: And then once he went into the house you went to arm yourselves.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: As we were sitting they were waiting anyone like him, not waiting for him only, we were ready for anything that would happen. It's not that we were waiting for him specifically, anyone from the ANC organisation was to be in the same danger, all the time we were ready for anything that would happen.

UNKNOWN: So any member of the ANC irrespective of age, irrespective of anything, if he or she appeared there you would have assaulted that person, attacked that person.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That is not so.  There were children and other people who were also supporters of ANC but we were looking for the people like him who were the leaders, who were the perpetrators of what was happening because they were the people who were giving instructions.  Therefore we would be wasting time if we would rush for the subordinates instead of getting to the leaders straight.  That is why we were waiting for the leaders like him.

UNKNOWN: Now the plan to attack, as I understand your evidence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you wanted to kill him and your colleague got cold feet, why didn't you take hold of that firearm and do it yourself if he needed to be killed?  You were there, you had disarmed him, you had rendered him ineffective, why didn't you just take hold of the firearm that was in the custody of your colleague who was supposed to have shot him and do the job yourself?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: First of all the people who were with me were the task force members who were waiting for my orders.  I gave one of them an order and then he defied the order and as a person who had issued the order I was supposed to attack because as I was issuing an order he was not standing still, he was on the way approaching us.  I did not have a chance to take the gun because the other comrade was also afraid and I wouldn't have time to go and get the firearm from my comrade, he could have shot me first.   What I thought of immediately at the time was to attack him.

UNKNOWN: Why didn't you shoot him with his own gun after you had taken his gun?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He was ineffective because he was already lying down and my aim was not to kill him but I just wanted to take, I just wanted him to stop trying to destroy our organisation and try to chase our members away.

CHAIRPERSON: So you thought by hitting him four times with a pick handle, that would do the job?  A trained guerrilla as you put it would now desist from political activities because he got clouted with a pick handle?  Is that what you're saying?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Professor Sobukwa said that if a person is very stupid you can use a pick handle to show him the right way.  I was not actually killing him, I was just giving him some discipline because I wanted him to know that the way that they are doing in their politics is not the right way because their mistake is that if a black person has committed a mistake to another black person they attack that particular person but if a white man had done something wrong to a black person they just go on a peaceful march to that particular person.  I was trying to show them that the PAC is regarding them not as our enemies, our only enemies were Boers and the Boers were befriended by them, therefore we were trying to show them that they are not supposed to fight us, they are supposed to negotiate with us.  I was trying to take him off that mind-set.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with that answer?  Then answer this.  Your colleague was supposed kill him by shooting him, not to teach him anything, isn't that so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct, he was supposed to shoot him, if he died he would just die like that.  Maybe if he was not shot at another - we were not going to be able to control the situation whether he dies or not after being shot, we were not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, there was a plan to kill him you said, correct?  There was a plan to kill him, your colleague was supposed to shoot him, not to teach him anything, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Shooting him to death, to the others who would still be alive at the time, that would be a lesson.

CHAIRPERSON: You gave an order to somebody who defied your order you say, your order was to shoot and kill him, that is Mr August, correct?  Remember you said so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The simple question is, asked by my colleague, that when this order was defied you had Mr August's firearm yourself in your hand, why didn't you then shoot him because he was supposed to be killed?  You were defending your organisation against the man who was destroying your organisation?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I issued the order to shoot him, he was not shot and I hit him and he fell and it was clear that he wouldn't be able to do anything, therefore I didn't see a reason for me to shoot him while he was lying down.  If I was not satisfied I could have shot him with his own gun.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Majebe, do you accept that the original court magistrate who convicted you of the offence of an attempted murder of Mr August, that he did so correctly, in other words that the finding he made that you are guilty of that offence is correct?