Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, with respect, I must object to this cross-examination.  My learned friend has cross-examined this witness to the point where his client is not implicated at all.  There's no point in this further cross-examination I would submit.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, the version put by my client differs substantially from the version given by this witness.  I'm entitled to cross-examine him, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's hear your version.

MR DA SILVA: I will put my version at the appropriate stage, Mr Chairman.  I submit with respect that I am entitled to test this witness.  The implication of his evidence, Mr Chairman, is that travelling down Nobel Boulevard were three police vehicles, and I've already, or my instructions are that the soldiers never saw these vehicles.  So I'm entitled to test him to see exactly what he saw, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And in doing so, please do not cover the ground that we've covered.  He's told us repeatedly what the Nyala is and what he understood the Koyoco to be.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I'll ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And he has repeatedly said he can't distinguish it, all he knows is that one is smaller and the other one is bigger.

MR DA SILVA: I undertake to be as short as possible.  I know time is of the essence, Mr Chairman.
	Are you saying now, Mr Baloyi, that a Koyoco and a Casspir are one and the same vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said to you the police and the soldiers, other ones will know of these names.  What I know is a Koyoco.  It is big and it has a roof door.

MR DA SILVA: But Mr Baloyi, I just want to get clarity.  When you started testifying in your evidence-in-chief, you distinguished between a Koyoco and a Casspir and then you distinguished between a Casspir and an Nyala and I want to know if you know what the difference is between these vehicles.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The one that is parked outside is small and a Koyoco is bigger.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, but do you accept if I tell you that a Casspir and a Koyoco, as known in the township, is one and the same type of vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, I saw two Koyocos.  I only saw Nyala when it came to the Metal Box under that tree. That is where they got off and fired shots in the air.  I did not see it inside the township, I only saw it there.

MR DA SILVA: The question is, you differentiated between a Koyoco and a Casspir at a stage.  Your evidence at a stage was that when you looked at Metal Box, you saw two Koyocos and a Casspir joined the two Koyocos.  You changed your evidence under cross-examination.  And what I want to establish is, do you accept that a Koyoco and a Casspir is the same type of vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am very sorry,  you see I don't know this word or name "Casspir" because that's where you will trap me, you will me on the name "Casspir".  I just know a Koyoco, a big one and a small one similar to the one that's parked outside.

MR DA SILVA: So can I ask you this, do you know what a Hippo is?  Mr Baloyi, do you know what a Hippo is?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't want to tell a lie.  I only know a Koyoco, I call it a Koyoco.

MR DA SILVA: Do you always talk about a Koyoco, don't you use the term Hippo?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We call it Koyoco, even a small child.

MR DA SILVA: The question is, do you not use the term Hippo?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, there are those who use the name Hippo, they know it.  I just hear them talking about Hippo.  I don't know what kind of a vehicle a Hippo is.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, do I understand your evidence to be then that when you refer to a large police vehicle, you would use the term Koyoco and you would not use the term Hippo?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying you are the one that is talking about a Hippo, I am talking about a Koyoco.  So you should know the Hippo better, I don't know it.  I only know a Koyoco.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, I want to establish what is going on in your mind, I want to establish how you use your terminology and the question is very ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva, the witness has repeatedly told you that he knows this by the name of Koyoco and that is enough.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, with respect, may I address you, Mr Chairman please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: The terminology of Hippo is going to become very relevant in my further cross-examination, and it is important for me to establish whether this witness uses the term Hippo or not.

CHAIRPERSON: He has told you that he uses the name Koyoco.

MR DA SILVA: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's move onto the next question.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Do you know a suitcase, a vehicle known as a suitcase?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did say that I saw two of them in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, not in the township.  They were just parked there.

MR DA SILVA: How do you differentiate between a suitcase and a Koyoco?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They are different, military vehicles are different.  They are vans and they are covered on the side, but you can actually see the heads of the people who are inside, through the roof.  Those are the ones that are called suitcases.  I don't know what you call them.

MR DA SILVA: So you say the one difference is that a suitcase doesn't have a roof and that you can see the soldiers' heads sticking out of the top of the vehicle, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Can you explain to the Committee whether there are any other differences that you know of between a suitcase and a Koyoco, apart from the fact ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look, I've never been to the army, I've never been to an army camp so I cannot talk about army vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: So you say that when you were standing at your house - you must correct me if I'm wrong, you're standing on your lawn or in front of your house and you're looking across the veld towards Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and you saw two suitcases.  Is that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that's what I said.

MR DA SILVA: You say that at a distance of 350 metres, whilst standing in front of your house, you could distinguish two military vehicles in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were not moving, they were stationary.  I said so.  I don't know what they were doing there.  They were just stationary, they did not move.  The only ones that were moving were the Koyocos, the ones that were running or moving through Umzimvubu Street.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, a report was handed in yesterday, it's marked Exhibit EE, and it deals with the visibility of certain people at certain different places in Boipatong, in similar situations as when the attack took place.  Now I want to ask you, when you were watching the Koyocos moving from the township towards the footbridge, is it your evidence that they were in your sight the whole time, that they were in your sight for the full distance of 350 metres?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: These vehicles were visible.  Look you cannot know now, there's a difference because some structures have been put up in that area, but if you could stand there you could see everything.  I will take you to the front of the house, to the back of the house, you could actually see everything.  That is how I saw these vehicles at the time.

MR DA SILVA: So is your evidence that after these two vehicles left Umzimvubu Street, you could actually see them and you had them in your sight the whole distance from when they left the township till when they got near the footbridge, is that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You see that was our responsibility because we had been beaten up and we were loading people who had been injured, so we were watching.  We did not go to sleep that evening.