Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAHARAJ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask Mr Zulu?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do, but can I ask for a two minute adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take a very short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete?  I am sorry, if you can just wait for Mr Zulu to get his headphones on.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: (still under oath)

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, before I proceed, I would like to correct something in the bundle, in the application form in English, the translation.  Page 15, number 10(b).  In Zulu, on the Zulu one it is on page 627, it is from the line in fact we wanted peace in our area, from there onwards it should read we also wanted peace in our organisation, but due to their actions, we could not or we failed to persevere such a situation.
	Due to their actions, we could not or we failed to persevere such a situation, or tolerate.  To tolerate such a situation.  It replaces that whole paragraph, yes because we could also get killed.  We admit to having committed the offences, we ask for forgiveness for the act of killing and injuring ANC people.
	I don't know if you would like the translator to confirm that that is correct from her Zulu version.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that Madam Translator?

INTERPRETER: Yes, I confer, yes, I do confer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: If the Committee members would bear with me.  Mr Zulu, is it correct that you stayed under the then Nkosi Khumalo, at Jojweni area?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No.  That is a mistake.

MS THABETE: Where did you live?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I lived in Madada, at Madada (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Who was your Nkosi there, your Chief in that area?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: It was Khumalo.

MS THABETE: Would it be correct to say that the incident occurred at Jojweni under the Nkosi Cele?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is true.

MS THABETE: In your application, page 16 of the bundle, number 11(a) of your application, you were asked a question who gave you an instruction to commit the offence that you did.  Can you explain why you didn't mention Buxusa Mbonambi?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Please repeat your question.

MS THABETE: I am asking you, in your application you were asked a question as to who gave you an order to kill the people you did at Mthetwa's place, and you wrote not applicable.
	What I am asking you is, why didn't you mention Buxusa Mbonambi in your application form?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: It is because I was not alone, as I was filling the application form, and I was depending upon the assistance of another person.

MS THABETE: What do you mean, do you mean somebody wrote it for you?  Is it not your own words that are written in the application, is that what you are saying?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Those are my words in the application.

MS THABETE: So why didn't you mention Buxusa?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I was confused I suppose, it has been long since I have been in prison.

MS THABETE: Is it correct that you were actually in your area, you were not a group of four, but you were actually a group of nine, isn't that right?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: That is a mistake.

MS THABETE: I am going to ask you now about the incident, when you went to Mthetwa's area, you called aside Musawenkosi, what did you say to him?
	Musawenkosi Cele, yes.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, I will refute that, I do not have any knowledge of that.

MS THABETE: Are you saying you never called him aside, you and your group?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, we never.

MS THABETE: You just came there and you killed all of them?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.  Because we had already been told that that is where we will find them.

MS THABETE: In your evidence today you said that you don't know anything about Maria Gcabashe, do you remember?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: It is the name and the surname that I don't know, that I heard for the first time here.

MS THABETE: Were you in court when you were charged and convicted, were you present in court?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, I was present.

MS THABETE: Didn't you hear any mention of Maria Gcabashe who was a witness?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I heard, yes.

MS THABETE: So why are you saying that you never heard of her before?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: This Maria Gcabashe we are busy talking about, I know her as a Khumalo, yet married to Mthetwa.  This is why I said I don't know anything about Maria Gcabashe.

MS THABETE: Was she referred to as Maria Gcabashe?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, she was referred to as Maria Gcabashe.

MS THABETE: Is it not correct that you belonged to a group which called themselves Sinamandla?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, that is not true, it was one of us whose nickname was Sinamandla.

MS THABETE: Is it also not true that in this group or this gang, or are you denying the fact that there was a gang called Sinamandla?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, I am denying that fact.

MR LAX: Whose nickname was Sinamandla?  Which of your group's nickname was Sinamandla?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Linda Luthuli's nickname was Sinamandla.

MS THABETE: So you wouldn't know anything about a group that harassed and raped women in your area?

INTERPRETER: May the speaker repeat her question?

MR LAX: She doesn't have her headphones on, so she can't hear you.  The question was you didn't know about a group of people that harassed and raped women, and harassed the people in the area, called Sinamandla?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, I have no knowledge to that effect.

MS THABETE: Is it not true that you and other people, who - you were a group of people, who went into a church and harassed the reverend, you do not know anything about that?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, I don't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it was necessarily in a church, it was at a party where a reverend was holding prayers.

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, my instruction was that it was actually in a church.

MR LAX: You don't remember that incident?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, I don't remember that incident.

MS THABETE: Is it also not true that in this area where the deceased were killed, there was no political conflict?

MS THABETE: There was political violence at that area.

MS THABETE: In your evidence today, in your evidence today, you told us that Linda Luthuli's father was killed and some of your relatives were killed, is that correct?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: So, wouldn't you say that you were revenging the death of your relatives and your co-accused's relative?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The fact that our relatives were hurt and were killed, did not matter.  We would have retaliated still even if those people were not related to us.

MS THABETE: You see Mr Zulu, I have been instructed by the victims and also our Investigator has investigated, and the finding was that you belonged to a group, a gang that harassed people and raped women in the area and also ...

MR LAX: Just slowly, slowly, put one thing to him at a time please.
	Put one thing to him at a time, so that he can answer one thing at a time.  If you put too many averments to him, then when he answers, we don't know which one he is replying to.

CHAIRPERSON: The first thing that has been put to you, it has been put to you that you belonged to a group which harassed people and raped women.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: That is not true.  That is a mistake.

MS THABETE: Sorry Mr Chairman, can I get guidance here.  I don't know whether I should repeat it one by one, because I actually asked him one by one whether he belonged, and he has denied all of that, so I just wanted to ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think he has, that he belonged to a group, he has already said that he hasn't heard of Sinamandla, so I think that is all right, carry on with your questions.

MS THABETE: So can I put whatever he has denied, can I put it to him because that is what I want to do now.