Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  When we adjourned yesterday, General Webb was being questioned by Mr Bizos.

EDWARD WEBB: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we have put before you a typed script of Exhibit L.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Fortunately we didn't have to decipher it, we found the typed copy that was done originally by the person who actually took it or helped to take it, so it's accuracy I think is apparent.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We'll mark this L then and we'll just substitute it for the hand-written one.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now has a copy of Exhibit L been made available to you?

CHAIRPERSON: It's a two-page typed document.  Do you have it?  You all have it?

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Now please look at paragraph 6:
"The contents of the document are obvious and it means exactly what it says.  This document is a very
good example of the fact that there was control over the CCB activities at all times."
Do you agree with that conclusion of Gen Joubert?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, this statement was made, I don't know what the date was, but ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Well it gives a date at the end, 10 July '93.

EDWARD WEBB: "93.  But it relates to a document which was handed in yesterday and which was dated 28 April 1987.  So I have no reason not to accept that that was the date and that was the situation in 1987.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, what I am asking you is to comment on the contents of paragraph 6. Do you say that - do you accept that the document reads what the General says it means?

EDWARD WEBB: Certainly during Gen Joubert's tenure at Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Is your answer that that may have been the position at the time that Gen Joubert was in charge, but not the position whilst you were in charge, is that what you want to say?

EDWARD WEBB: I want to say that it appears from my period there that it had changed.

GEORGE BIZOS: In what way did it change?

EDWARD WEBB: The fact that I didn't know about certain operations.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now who do you say - do you say that these were accidental or just simple mismanagement, or do you say on the evidence that you have heard, that there was a decision somewhere to cut you out?

EDWARD WEBB: What the true reason was, I don't know, but I certainly didn't know about everything that was going on.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't of everything.  So that - but one thing was clear was it not, that you expected to be informed of everything that was happening?

EDWARD WEBB: Of course, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that in so far as things happened without your knowledge, they were irregular and contrary to their instructions and contrary to the rules in terms of which the CCB was structured?

EDWARD WEBB: It was according to the rules laid down.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Bizos, if I could just ask a question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Of course, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  General, when you took over from Gen Joubert, did you actually move into his office, physically?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson

CHAIRPERSON: And were there filing cabinets and documents there?

EDWARD WEBB: Not as far as the CCB was concerned, they had their own files and their own filing cabinets, it wasn't kept at my Head Office.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you have access to those?  Surely you must have, being the Chairman.

EDWARD WEBB: If I wanted to ask for documentation, yes, then I had access to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, seeing that you were coming into a new environment, something that was different from the rest of the Army in that it was unconventional, did you make an effort to acquaint yourself with your new command?

EDWARD WEBB: I had been properly briefed by Gen Joubert and after that by Col Verster and all the other regiments under my command.

CHAIRPERSON: Because one would imagine a document like the one dated the 28th of April, would have been part of the documentation in the CCB.

EDWARD WEBB: That document was never shown to me and I was not aware of the contents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Bizos.

MR LAX: Sorry, before you ...
	Were you shown any documents that set out the aims, the objects, the doctrines, the strategies, the concept of the CCB and what it was intended to be?

EDWARD WEBB: That CCB had its own production plan and they submitted it to me, but it wasn't a document that was actually submitted to me, it was simply a briefing which I received.

MR LAX: Do I take from that that you weren't shown any documents at all?

EDWARD WEBB: There was no reason for that, Chairperson, it was common practice to make a practical submission.  I suppose I could have asked for documentation, but I never did.

MR LAX: But surely as the Commanding General of a unit, and that's really what it was, even though it wasn't formally linked, you would say "Well I want to  see the budget, I want to see the organogram of the structure, I want to just make sure that everything that should be in place in terms of the original conception of this entity is there?

EDWARD WEBB: The budget, that was submitted to myself by the CCB, not the organogram although they told me there were a certain number of regions in existence, but as a result of the objective of the CCB, there was never a personal diagram submitted to me saying we've got so many people in the field and those are their names etcetera, no.

MR LAX: So you were never in a position to check whether the budget was spent properly, to check that people you were told were on the ground were actually on the ground, 'cause you never verified anything yourself?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I didn't verify it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	General, did it not strike you as odd that you, a decorated General, was asked to move into a nude area -  I don't argue with you whether it was grey or any other colour, but it was certainly an area in which crimes may be committed, such as damage to property, injury to people, even possibly death.  Before moving into such a position having regard ...(no microphone) background in the Army, wouldn't you have wanted to see what is the basis of this thing, where are the documents?  The Head of the Defence Force, the Head of the Army, have I their authority to do this?  Is this authorised by the Minister of Defence and the Cabinet?  Where am I being sent to do these unusual things?  Wouldn't that be a natural reaction of an honourable General?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, it was a very big compliment for me to be appointed to Special Forces.  The CCB was only a small unit of Special Forces as a whole and there were a great many submissions made and briefing sessions in order to get your feet on the ground as far as Special Forces as a whole was concerned, so perhaps later more detail would have been a good thing, but at that stage I was too busy to orientate myself regarding the Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but Special Forces was a broader organisation, it wasn't to commit offences against the law of the land, wasn't there a distinction in your mind in relation to the Special Forces and the job that you were now being offered to take over?

EDWARD WEBB: It was a challenge for me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, a challenge is one thing, what the question which may indicate some state of mind on your part that you thought this as a possible adventure, but what I am asking you is, whether you were not sufficiently concerned to say, "Where did the ultimate authority for the formation of this group of people come from that I am asked to lead?"

EDWARD WEBB: The organisation had been founded and I accepted it as such.  My predecessor caused this unit to be established with the necessary authorisation.