Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: It is now Friday, the 5th of September and we are continuing with the evidence, the cross-examination of Col Loots.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, before we start, I have been in your office earlier this morning. I do have a practical problem as far as I am personally concerned in this matter.  If the intention is to just complete Mr Loots' evidence and the evidence of Mr Bokaba, I am not really necessary in these proceedings and therefore, because of the fact that I have other obligations, I will ask to be excused with the consent of the rest of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, we are unlikely to do more than complete those two witnesses, and also earlier in the week, certain of the victims and other interested parties were informed that Mr Motsemai's case would not commence till Monday.  That seems that that is fairly accurate summing-up, although I wouldn't have referred to your presence in quite the same terms as you referred to it, as being - what was it, not any use?  But I understand that you have another professional engagement and you are rendering services in another capacity and we quite understand. I think you can certainly be excused.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: May I proceed, Mr Chair?

COL LOOTS: (Still under oath).

ADV MEMANI: (cont)
	Now Mr Loots, yesterday you told us that you were in the unfortunate position of inheriting a two, a unit consisting of two oldish men.  Is that correct?

COL LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And the one was Sengwane and did you say Dimida?

COL LOOTS: No, Leonard Dunira.

ADV MEMANI: D-U-N-I-R-A?

COL LOOTS: That's correct, Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Now how old was Sengwane?

COL LOOTS: I cannot tell you with any certainty, but he was approximately in the vicinity of pensioning age.

ADV MEMANI: So we can say that he was about 60 years of age?

COL LOOTS: For the purposes of these hearings, we might be quite safe to assume that.

ADV MEMANI: No, no, no, what do you mean when you say that he was close to pensioning age, what made you think that he was close to pensioning age?

COL LOOTS: It is not what I think, it is what I know. He was one of the members of my personnel.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, and then you must know then that pensioning age is around 60.

COL LOOTS: That's correct.  That is why I say I accept that that is correct, for the purposes of these hearings.

ADV MEMANI: So why didn't you say yes, why didn't you simply say yes when I said he was about 60?

COL LOOTS: There is no difference between saying yes or saying that's correct, they both have the same meaning.

ADV MEMANI: And Dunira?

COL LOOTS: Dunira was also around pensioning age, as far as I know.  If I miscalculated, I am not trying to mislead you. I am not sure how old he was.

ADV MEMANI: But we can accept he was a man of about 55 years of age?

COL LOOTS: No, Dunira was older than Sengwane, as far as I know.

ADV MEMANI: So both of them were about 60 years of age?

COL LOOTS: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And then did you say that Bokaba then joined after Dunira and Sengwane?

COL LOOTS: No, I testified Bokaba joined when Dunira resigned and Sengwane and Bokaba then formed a team.

ADV MEMANI: And how old was Bokaba then?

COL LOOTS: Bokaba was still a very young man. I cannot tell you how old he was. Unfortunately I can't help you.

ADV MEMANI: Was he in his thirties?

CHAIRPERSON: He is going to be giving evidence in a moment, I understand, can't you ask him how old he is?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it is relevant to the theory that I am pursuing in respect of this particular witness.

CHAIRPERSON: He has told you he was a young man, not?

ADV MEMANI: And was he in his early thirties?

COL LOOTS: It might be, I cannot tell you with any certainty, although I would like to help you.

ADV MEMANI: And was he approximately above the age of 25 at that time?

COL LOOTS: That is possible, yes.  But he is here, we can ask him.

ADV MEMANI: No, forget about that. Let's continue with you, I am cross-examining you.  I am not interested in Bokaba now.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were asking him questions about Bokaba now.  If you are not interested in Bokaba, what is the point of the questions?  Please, apply your mind to what you are doing.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I can state for the record, Capt Bokaba has indicated to me that he was 30 at that time.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Loots, so long as I am cross-examining you, you are going to answer the questions.  Now Mr Loots, when did Selahla join your unit?

COL LOOTS: Mr Chair, if I remember correctly, like it was testified yesterday, it was late in 1987.

ADV MEMANI: And how old was Selahla?

COL LOOTS: I think he must have been younger than Bokaba.

ADV MEMANI: And ...

CHAIRPERSON: Somebody seems to have a cell-phone ringing here. Will they please turn it off immediately.

ADV MEMANI: Now when Selahla joined the unit, he must have been about 25 or so?

COL LOOTS: I cannot tell you with any certainty, even if I would like to.  He was a young man.

ADV MEMANI: And your legal representatives have pointed it to me that he was born in 1958. So that would mean that he was about 29 in 1987.

COL LOOTS: If you calculate that, that is correct, Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Now - and Ngo was about 24 years of age at that stage?

COL LOOTS: I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Loots, during 1987, during 1985 onwards, the struggle intensified.  Do you agree?

COL LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And there was a state of emergency, a series of states of emergencies were declared?

COL LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And there was what was perceived by the regime as an order of Black on Black violence?

COL LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: But people like you, knew that it was anti-apartheid forces rebelling against the Government?

COL LOOTS: Please repeat the question?

ADV MEMANI: I am saying that people like you, the security branch, knew that it was in fact the anti-apartheid forces, campaigning against the Government.

COL LOOTS: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And most of these activities took under the banner of the student structures and the youth movements?

COL LOOTS: That is also correct.

ADV MEMANI: And that was the case also in Mamelodi?

COL LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you recruited Ngo because of his age, because you needed a young man to go and work with the youth and student structures?

COL LOOTS: I never recruited him.

ADV MEMANI: He told us that he was used in Pretoria because of his relative age.

COL LOOTS: Mr Chair, I have already testified yesterday, and that was under oath, that there was never for one second in his life that he did any work for the security branch of the Northern Transvaal.

ADV MEMANI: Ngo worked with the youth, and that is why his victims were members of MAYO.

COL LOOTS: I cannot comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: Now when did you commit the murder at Hammanskraal?

COL LOOTS: '86/'87.

ADV MEMANI: And where were you stationed at the time?

COL LOOTS: I was a unit head, as was testified yesterday, of Unit B of the security branch, Northern Transvaal.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just come in here. The question was framed by my learned friend "where did you commit the murder of the policeman in Hammanskraal".  Now I have difficulty with the way that question was framed and with the answer, because without being, reading the whole contents of the application, and what it entailed, I am just a bit perturbed about Col Loots making certain admissions here which ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he said he was asking amnesty for the murder of a policeman at Hammanskraal.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, when was that committed.  It is no more than that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, right, Mr Chairman, I just want to make ...

CHAIRPERSON: No more than to elucidate the date which he yesterday told us he is asking amnesty for a certain person.