Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, for the information of the Committee, I did consult with Mr Gushu and Khaba about this issue.  I can recall Mr Khaba if necessary to clarify the issue but I've been given to understand that there's another applicant who was present when the instruction was given and that the issue would then be clarified.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I have drawn your attention to it.  I don't the details, that is why I can't, and I don't intend to advise you either way.  I think you're experienced enough to decide what can happen, what will not happen and you have the particular information to decide what to do.

MR BLACK: I can just request that my instructions, or I'm given to understand that the matter will be clarified in the course of the hearing but if not, I may well have to recall Mr Khaba just to explain the situation, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you calling now?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, this is Mr Mbokane, the third applicant which appears on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbokane, what language would you prefer to speak?

L P MBOKANE: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

L P MBOKANE: (sworn states)

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, this applicant, Mr Mbokane, is applying for amnesty in respect of, if I may broadly refer to them as the events which took place at the Giwi Breyten Construction Compound(?) in Evander.  He was convicted of the offences of murder, attempted murder and two attempted robberies.  These convictions will appear on page 233 of the record, Volume 1, and the charge sheet is on page 216.

CHAIRPERSON: He applies for amnesty in respect of murder, the murder of whom?

MR BLACK: This is the Giwi Breyten incident.  That is the murder of Mr de Breyten, the attempted murder on Mr Fourie and then I assume that the two counts of attempted robbery of which he was convicted possibly relate to the tying up of the two security guards.  Mr Gushu has already testified to that incident and confirmed the fact that this applicant was present at the time the incident took place.
	Mr Chairman, before we get to the actual events as it were, I need to clear up a few preliminary issues.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR BLACK: The Judgment is on page 233, that's the final conclusion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BLACK: And the charge sheet appears on page 216.  He was convicted of counts 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the charge sheet.
	Mr Chairman, the application, the original application which was submitted to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, appears on page 58 of Volume 1.  I need to clarify a few issues relating to that particular application form in order to avoid any, or to curtail the proceedings.
	May I proceed Mr Chairman?

MR BLACK: Mr Mbokane, if you look at page 58 of Volume 1 which is in front of you there, this is an application form which was submitted to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in terms of which you applied for amnesty, is that correct?

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now who completed this form?

L P MBOKANE: It's my co-inmates in Barbeton Prison.

MR BLACK: So the handwriting which appears on this form, is that your hand writing?

L P MBOKANE: It's my co-inmates handwriting.

MR BLACK: Now, did you tell your inmate, your co-inmate as it were, the full story of what happened and Giwi Breyten?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is correct, I did.

MR BLACK: And did you - is that including the shooting of Mr de Bruyn and the tying of the security officers etc?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I explained to him even with regard to - I explained to him with regard to the attempted murder but not the actual murder but I did explain in such a manner that he would believe me with regard to what I did but I think he filled the form wrongly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbokane, I'm sure you can talk louder, not so?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see those policemen there sitting in the back?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Talk loud enough so they can hear you.

L P MBOKANE: Okay.

MR BLACK: Let's just - I just want to repeat, did you tell your co-inmate that Mr de Bruyn was killed and that there was and that Mr Fourie was wounded and that the two security guards were tied up?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I did tell him that one of them was injured and the other one was killed, but I did explain to him that I never took part in any shooting and I was never charged with murder but he chose to write whatever he wrote.

MR BLACK: So this business of saying that the acts in respect of which you applying, it's got here
"poging tot moord"
Did you tell him to write "poging tot moord", or who, how did it come about that that was written down?

L P MBOKANE: I think because I told him with regard to the attempted murders, probably he decided to write it because I had not been filled in or told as to how to fill in the form properly.

MR BLACK: So when this form was filled in did you have the assistance of any lawyer or did anyone explain the meaning of these paragraphs that you had to fill in?

L P MBOKANE: No, nobody was assisting me in filling in the form.

MR BLACK: Now you go on in the form and you refer to, there's a name of a victim and you refer to a Fourie, is that also a thing that was filled in by this co-inmate of yours?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, everything that is contained herein was filled in by my co-inmate.

MR BLACK: And did you tell your co-inmate that a Mr de Bruyn was killed at the shooting?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I did.

MR BLACK: Because I see he's got there
"One person was killed"
And if you look at page 60 of that, did you tell your co-inmate that you were acting on behalf of the ANC and on the orders of Mzwandile Gushu?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I did.

MR BLACK: If you page to page 61 of Volume 1, you got page 61?

L P MBOKANE: Yes.

MR BLACK: That is the beginning of a supplementary statement, is that correct?

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: If you page to page 67 of that statement, if you look at the bottom of that page, is that your signature which appears on that page?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: And do you confirm that what is contained in this statement, page 61 to 67, is true and correct?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I think that is true and correct even though I didn't have the opportunity to read through it.

MR BLACK: Well did you go through - is everything ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So why do you say it's true and correct if you haven't read through it?

L P MBOKANE: I do believe whatever is written in there is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, has the contents of that documents not been interpreted or gone through with the applicant?

MR BLACK: Yes, I can confirm that the applicant has in fact read this statement and he has gone through it, so I can clarify perhaps what he is trying to get at.  I think at the time of signing it he didn't.
	Have you read this statement?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I read the statement.

MR BLACK: Now if you look at page 66 of that statement, you drew to my attention that there was something that wasn't correct on that.

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is true.

MR BLACK: Can you tell the Committee what is not quite accurately recorded on that statement?

L P MBOKANE: I realised later on that I had said I am applying for amnesty with regard to attempted murder and I had to apply with regard every matter in Giwi Breyten.  I would like to say that I am applying for amnesty with regard to murder, attempted murder as well as robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, what sentence did you get for all of those?

L P MBOKANE: 18 years.