Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know where you received that information, that is not my version of the entire situation.  At Mr Martin's home, the men were told that we would be holding a road block, our target group was the ANC/SACP alliance and that is how I have submitted it to this Committee.

MR DREYER: And then you said to them there and then that this is our target group, if we go out tonight and hold a road block wherever, if we find ANC people, we will shoot them immediately, is that what you said to them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Already at the road house I told them that tonight is the real McCoy, our target group is ANC/SACP members.  If we find them, we will shoot them.

MR DREYER: When did you testify that you stated it in so many words and so explicitly at the road house, when did you testify that?  You will have to be of assistance to me because I don't know when you testified that.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Before this Committee, it is within my statement which have been submitted to the Committee.

MR DREYER: You stated it as such, that there had to be corpses, that we were going to have a road block?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR DREYER: May I ask you, when you testified here during the criminal proceedings, you said that you thought that you should emphasise the alcohol aspect more because it would be mitigating for you, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR DREYER: Did you then also during the criminal proceedings, for the purpose of mitigation say that this entire incident was tragic and that it shouldn't have happened?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct, I absolutely said it.  I stated that this incident should have been only for arms and ammunition, it had been a freak accident, I think those are the words that I used in court.  Once again it was to protect Gen Oelofse as well as the Generals in staff.

MR DREYER: But sir, how could you protect Gen Oelofse and the AWB through this, I don't understand?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know if you are the only person who doesn't understand, at this point it is the umpteenth time that we are discussing the same point.
	I will say it again.  I absolutely attempted to protect Gen Oelofse and the AWB.  I did not want to connect any corpses or shooting of people to the AWB or Gen Oelofse.

MR DREYER: And when you went out to establish the road block, you stopped a great deal of vehicles, before you arrived at these two specific vehicles?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And you are trying to tell this Committee that you questioned these people in the previous vehicles individually and not one of them said that they were members of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And why didn't you use some kind of violence to bring them to a point to admit that they were members of the ANC, as you did with the two last vehicles?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Later I did use violence for which I was charged and convicted.

MR DREYER: Can you just tell us then, what difference did it make, why with the first number of vehicles which you stopped and you used a certain level of violence, why did the passengers of those vehicles remain steadfast and say that they were not members of the ANC, but when you came to the last two vehicles and you hit them lightly with your baton, they admitted that they were members of the ANC, why?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I have said that I did not hit them softly, that is what my co-accused have said.

MR DREYER: And did each and everyone of these people who were passengers in these two vehicles, did each and everyone of them ultimately admit to you that they were members of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Each and everyone of them remained steadfast that they were members of the ANC.

MR DREYER: Even the nine year old and the 13 year old?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I cannot tell you anything about the nine year old and the 13 year old who appeared to me to be like any other person, a mature person, because I was moving behind them.

MR DREYER: And he also said that he was a member of the ANC.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Might I just have the opportunity?

MR DREYER: Yes, go ahead.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I did not say that I saw this 13 year old child, to me he appeared like any other person, a large man.  His profile was the same size as any of the others who were seated there.
	The same question was put to everyone, and everyone said yes, we are ANC.  Some of them answered in English, some in Afrikaans.

MR DREYER: But none of us were there, we weren't involved.  Can you offer any explanation to us as to what brought these people so far in making this admission that they were ANC members because they knew that this was not an official Police road block?  The previous group of people were not moved by your behaviour, to make such admissions?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would propose that you ask that question to the victims themselves, but from my position I regarded it that they were blatantly convinced that they were going to win the election and that is why they answered our question as to what their party affiliation was, with ANC membership.

MS VAN DER WALT: The witness has testified that the others said that they did not belong to any political party or that they were members of the IFP or Tswana's.

CHAIRPERSON: ... from the Honda and the Cressida, he was referring to people that had earlier on stopped in other vehicles.

MS VAN DER WALT: The previous passengers before the last two vehicles, yes, but regarding the questions that were just put, the others were merely stopped and searched.
	It doesn't appear as if the Advocate is aware of the testimony that the others did in fact answer.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the nine year old Mr Kloppers, the Advocate asked you about the nine year old and the 13 year old, and you said the so-called 13 year old, to you, really did not appear to be that young.  What about the nine year old?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The nine year old child, I did not see.  As I have said before, I was walking behind them, they were seated with their backs to me, if they looked at me, I hit them with the baton, told them to look in front of them, and Deon Martin questioned them.
	He stood in front of them, I did not see or notice any nine year old child.

CHAIRPERSON: ... interrogated these people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Some of them I hit with a (indistinct) from behind and said answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You spoke to them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I spoke.

CHAIRPERSON: And at some point they were made to stand in a straight line?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: My own people?  Are you referring to my men?

CHAIRPERSON: The victims?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, under no circumstances.  They sat all the time on a small embankment at the side of the road.  They were sitting on the side line, that is right.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you speak to them, they were sitting there in a straight line?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct yes, I was behind them and when I spoke to them, it was to achieve answers.

CHAIRPERSON: ... which could have been nine year old.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Under no circumstances did I notice this child.

MR DREYER: Did you notice the child on the mother's lap?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I did not notice any child on any mother's lap.

MR DREYER: How long did this interrogation last?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Approximately eight to ten minutes.

MR DREYER: Is that not a very long enough time to take in the entire scene?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ... women there, amongst them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I image that there would have been women.