Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do not know that, I cannot say.  I do not know if he wanted to relay the attention from himself or if he wanted to place the fault on another structure, the SAP, whoever.  It was just as strange to me.

MR LAX: Was this his style, playing these sort of funny ...(indistinct) type games.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: His specific style or the CCB style?

MR LAX: Yes, or the CCB style and his style.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, the CCB, it was their forte.

MR LAX: So you were constantly conning each other as to what you were involved with?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, not necessarily each other, the community, the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, but here you were conning each other.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes well I do not know if it was his style, I just experienced what he stated.

GEORGE BIZOS: We have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos.  We'll take the short tea adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, do you have any questions?

MR WESSELS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botha, before you joined the CCB did you commit any crimes of any nature?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR WESSELS: So you were recruited into the CCB with clean hands and you were quite enthusiastic to become part of this organisation, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: It was a new career which beckoned to you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you foresaw that you would spend quite a long time working there.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And according to your blue plan you had to establish yourself in such a way that you would be able to operate for many years in the future without any exposure.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: It was during the middle towards the end of 1988.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You were quite exited regarding this new career of yours.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you attended a training course during which you were given training by the Defence Force and Special Forces staff members.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And among others, members of the CCB which already existed then.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Mr Joe Verster presented lectures to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, he did address us.

MR WESSELS: He addressed you.  And you met him there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I had met him previously.

MR WESSELS: You met him previously and he addressed you there.  What was the nature of his address?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In general terms he simply confirmed what he had said to us upon a previous occasion, during the session that we had after our recruitment, where the organisation would go and he gave us more facts pertaining to this.

MR WESSELS: And I accept that he and other persons emphasised with you that this was an extremely sensitive organisation which would be performing very sensitive work.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Covertly?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: In the sense that nothing which had to be done could be traced back.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: There had to be absolute cut-off points in any operation or in any action whatsoever.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I accept that.

MR WESSELS: So that it could never emerge with those in control or the State.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Who presented the lectures to you regarding security?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Wessels, I cannot recall it off the top of my head, my statement will tell you who was present there.  I cannot recall the precise presence of persons.

MR WESSELS: Would it be correct to say that your interpretation of the situation was that security was of the highest priority within the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And this would ensure the continued existence of the organisation and your career?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Indeed Mr Verster and other members who were higher up in the organisation were paranoid about security, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you realised that you were dealing with a professional soldier who believed absolutely in the observation of rules and procedures.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A professional soldier which had not functioned in the urban environment, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: So he viewed it in the perspective of the military where rules would be followed to the letter and there would be no deviation from such procedure?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.  We were specifically employed to utilise our expertise regarding the urban environment.

MR WESSELS: Yes, subject to the rules and regulations of the organisation and the method of action.  This was emphasised to you upon various occasions.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And this was during 1988?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: That is when you begun to achieve your cover and you formulated your blue plan.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: When did you and Mr Barnard become friends again?  Was this while you were busy establishing your blue plan towards the end of '88, or was it before that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it was probably prior to it, just after his release.

MR WESSELS: Yes.  And when did you realise that Mr Barnard was indeed also working for the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: During one of our discussions which ensued.

MR WESSELS: And when was this, can you give us some kind of timeframe?  Towards the end of '88, the middle of '88?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it was the middle of '88.

MR WESSELS: And that is when you knew that he was also working for the same organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you and Mr Barnard were very good friends, even in those days already?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is true.

MR WESSELS: One could even say that your relationship at that stage was that of blood-brothers.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: So one should then accept that between you and him there was the greatest measure of openness and honesty?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was limited.  I would say to the greatest extent, every person exercised his own discretion regarding what could be said or should be said.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard is the type of person who was known for talking, he like to talk about his activities and what he was doing in life.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think that that is a bit of a generalisation.

MR WESSELS: But he wasn't a secretive person.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: On the contrary, he could be quite secretive.  Some of the things that he said I've only heard here, despite the fact that I have been friends with him for 15, almost 20 years.

MR WESSELS: And did you tell Mr Barnard that you were working in Region 6?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I believe I told him that I was involved with the same structure and organisation.

MR WESSELS: The same organisation yes, but didn't he ask you:  "Where are you working, what sort of work are you doing?"

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I may have told him.  The inference was rather obvious, because all the South African Police members resigned at the same time and were recruited into Mathyssen at approximately the same time, so I thought that the inference would be obvious.

MR WESSELS: And didn't you ask him in which region he was working and what he was doing?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In general terms he explained his working methods to me, which were not entirely in line with ours.

MR WESSELS: What did he explain to you, how did he do his work?