Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Mr Lottering, in your statement, your confession that was made on the 4th January which you have referred to as your Section 29 statement, you set out a political background, your political background, your placing of the bomb at Jani Allen's place, your disillusionment with Eugene Terre'blanche because of his his association with Ms Allen and you link in that statement the murder to this political background of yours and your political beliefs is that not so?  But yet in that statement you don't say that you received an order to go and kill a man to prove to yourself and to your leader that you are capable of killing.  In fact if I refer you to page 53 of the papers, you say the following:  "I prepared myself to prepare these acts in various ways, however there was one thing which bothered me -I was not a hundred percent sure whether I would be able to carry out my task.  It would have been fatal to get cold feet if I for instance had a leadership figure in my sights, therefore I believed that with the killing of my natural enemy who is a non-white, I could therefore, by doing that, decide that issue for myself and that would then satisfy me that I had the courage and the determination to continue with my proposed scheme."  ...[inaudible] saying there in that extract which I've read, it seems to be more of a subjective decision, that you were worried within yourself that you couldn't carry out the order and you might get cold feet immediately before, well, killing a leader and no mentions made of receiving an order.  Why did you not, even without mentioning De Beer's name, say that the killing was on orders?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: We, five of us, were all being detained under Section 29...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Could we just have cell phones cut down to a
minimum please or to an absolute..thanks.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: At that stage I received the order that I should make the statement in that particular way to exonerate those other people.  It was the security police's objective to charge us, the five of us, as a group jointly for this incident such as for instance that happened in the case of Clive Derby-Lewis, he was also convicted.  It was that kind of thing which I was supposed to prevent by making this statement and that is why I actually sucked these long stories out of my thumb.  But for instance this reference to cold feet, when I received the order, it was basically the idiom that was being used to say that I should actually prepare myself in that way that they will not accept me getting cold feet at a crucial point.  It was half truth and half lies, I actually concocted the whole story like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mostert, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Mr Steenkamp and members of the panel?

MR MOSTERT: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Lottering.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, we would like to call on behalf of the applicant the following people:  Mr Barend Strijdom.

BAREND STRIJDOM: (sworn states)

MR MOSTERT: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Strijdom, do you know the applicant, Mr Lottering?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes, I've known Corrie for quite some time. Before I was arrested we were both members of the AWB for quite a few years.  We visited my parent's home on a couple of occasions and we also went to certain functions, meetings etc. of the AWB and other occasions.

MR MOSTERT: So you can confirm to the Committee that he was a member of the AWB and that he fought for the cause of a Volk?

BAREND STRIJDOM: That's correct.  We also had many discussions regarding why we were members of the AWB, I think it's important perhaps to state that.  Why we became members of the AWB at that particular time although we were still quite young, many things happened in this country's history and the purpose of the AWB was to try and stabilise or correct the situation as we saw it.  Our objective was to achieve a Volkstaat and I think we in the AWB tried everything to achieve that, we tried everything to try and achieve a Volkstaat.

MR MOSTERT: The way you know Mr Lottering, would you say that if it hadn't been for politics he would still have committed these acts of which he was convicted?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I must refer the Committee to the fact that these things happened before, or that I knew Mr Lottering before 15th November and that stage when I knew Mr Lottering, he was a relatively gentle person.  He was involved in the AWB and was not involved in any of the acts which at that stage had been imputed to the AWB for instance the tarring and feathering of Mr Vloors van Jaarsveld because he showed contempt for the Day of the Vow etc.

MR MOSTERT: Mr Dawie de Beer, do you know him?

BAREND STRIJDOM: We were friends, yes.  We lived in Vereeniging and we have come a long way together.  He also came to visit me in prison a couple of times after I was arrested and locked up.

MR MOSTERT: Was he a member of the AWB?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes he was.  He was also the Secretary of Aquillo and that could be regarded as the armed wing or the military wing of the AWB at that stage.

MR MOSTERT: Are you aware of the fact that Mr Lottering and Mr de Beer had contact with each other?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Mr Lottering and Mr de Beer definitely had contact at that time already.

MR MOSTERT: Did you know Mr Hennie Binneman?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I knew Mr Binneman, not as well as I knew Mr de Beer, but yes I knew him.

MR MOSTERT: Do you know whether he was a member of the AWB?

BAREND STRIJDOM: As far as I know yes.

MR MOSTERT: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOSTERT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Steenkamp do you have any questions you would like to ask the witness?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, just two or three questions.
	Mr Strijdom, do you know what the AWB's policy was?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes - I will try and put it very briefly - after the Anglo Boer War we as the Boer people lost our freedom after 26 000 women and children were killed in a brutal way by the English.  After that there was a peace treaty...[intervention]

MR STEENKAMP: I beg your pardon, the question was do you know what the policy was?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Now would the AWB ever have given an instruction as Mr Lottering testified by Mr de Beer, or otherwise, that black people should be killed?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Let me answer it in this way - I attended many, many AWB meetings where there were calls made to act, to make war.  At the time of this specific act that Mr Lottering committed, I was already in prison and I think in the intervening years some things happened which had influenced the enthusiasm of the Volk and people were turning to acts of resistance more and more.

MR STEENKAMP: My question is this and perhaps you could just answer with a yes or no, did the AWB ever give any orders that black people should be killed by it's members?  As far as you know, as Mr Lottering testified?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes there are AWB members who have said that.

MR STEENKAMP: Was it AWB policy?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Just as the ANC would never openly admit to such a policy, I think it could bring about a civil litigation for an organisation to admit that.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you know about the existence of "Die Order van die Dood"?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I knew about it yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you know who the chairperson was?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I didn't know everything about The Order of Death because I was in prison for part of the time but people tried to convey certain information to me and it must also be considered that the discussions in prison were taped so people couldn't actually give me all the facts, but yes, I knew he was in a controlling position in this organisation.

MR STEENKAMP: So you knew Mr Dawie de Beer, do you know what his position was in The Order of Death?