Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR BERGER: Please listen to my question.  I'll give you the exact dates.  Bongani Mbatha was killed on the 12th of January 1992 in Boipatong.  Then there was all sorts of violence in Sharpeville, Sebokeng, Everton and then on the 13th of June, Mr David Mbele was killed and on the 14th of June, Mr B L Khumalo was killed.  So from the middle of January to the middle of June is five months.  And I'm asking you, in that five month period, do you know of a single IFP member of supporter who was killed by residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: In my answer I would say during that time I only that old man but I don't remember the date but I only know that old man was killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: When you were moving around Boipatong and moving along the perimeter between Boipatong and Slovo Park - and you'll agree with me that there is no clear division between Boipatong and Slovo Park, there's just a road.  On the one side is Boipatong and on the other is Slovo Park.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I agree with you because that is what I said before.

MR BERGER: And as you were moving through the streets of Boipatong for that long period which others have estimated at an hour and a half, you never saw a single police vehicle?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see any police vehicle in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You did not see any policemen or any white men or any people wearing balaclavas?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: And the people who were shooting with AK47s and with other weapons that ejected shells, they were shooting freely, there was nothing to catch the shells, no-one was picking up the shells, you didn't see any of that?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see any person picking up the shells.

MR BERGER: Is it correct to say that if the police had been in Boipatong that night with the attackers, with you, and when I say "you" I mean "you" plural, you would have seen them?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.  If there were police in Boipatong at that time we would have seen them.  Even if there were police in assisting us in attacking the people, I would have seen that and I would have written it in my statement.

MR BERGER: And so the fact that you never saw any police means undoubtedly that there were no police and no police vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were no police in Boipatong.  Even if there were police who were just patrolling in Boipatong, I would have seen them and I would say that I saw the police.  So because I didn't see them, I'm saying there were no police in Boipatong then.

MR BERGER: Yes, what I'm saying and I'm sure you will agree with me, is that there was nothing that prevented you from seeing the police if they had been there.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, I agree with you.

MR BERGER: And the same for the army, the SADF.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, even if there were soldiers, I would have seen them.

MR BERGER: And if members of your group had been given lifts in military vehicles, suitcases, you would have seen that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, if they were given lifts by the soldiers, those who were in my group, I would have seen them and I also would have taken that lift as well.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were there in your group?  If you can estimate, was it a large group or a fairly small group?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it was a big group.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that at no stage during the attack, subsequent to the attack or  until today, has anyone of your co-applicants or anyone of your friends or anybody that you knew at KwaMadala come to you and said the police were there, the police did assist us?  No-one has ever said that to you, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct,  you are right.

MR BERGER: Do you know who Dondo is?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: That's Jack Mbele?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And Makuka?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Who is he?

MR MAZIBUKO: I know him by the name of Oupa Julius Selai.

MR BERGER: And where is he now?

MR MAZIBUKO: He is dead.

MR BERGER: Was he part of the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I did not see him, whether he was present or not.

MR BERGER: But you knew him from KwaMadala before the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And Lucky is Lucky Stikenyao.

MR MAZIBUKO: I know him.

MR BERGER: That's Sonny Michael Mkwanasi?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Themba Mabote we know was part of the attack, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see him in Boipatong during the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well I saw him when we were leaving and when we were at the open veld outside Boipatong, when we were coming back to the hostel.

MR BERGER: At the time of the attack, is it correct that you were friendly with Ndondo and Lucky?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Who is Gatchene?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's another man.  I cannot explain but I knew him, he's just another man.

MR BERGER: You know him from KwaMadala before the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Was he an Induna or did he hold any position?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know, I don't whether he had a position or he was an Induna.

MR BERGER: Where is he today?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know where he is.

MR BERGER: Is it also a lie that you were in possession of a Z88 gun during the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is untrue.

MR BERGER: The first time that you saw a police or military vehicle near Boipatong was as you were leaving and you were already in the veld outside Boipatong, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: One of the military vehicles that you saw was moving along that road which separates Boipatong from the factories, Cape Gate and other factories, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And it was moving in your direction, towards you?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You don't know where that military vehicle came from?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, I don't know where it came from.

MR BERGER: And the other two military vehicles you saw in the road, the main road that separates the veld from KwaMadala, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Can you repeat the question again, Sir.

MR BERGER: The other two military vehicles that you saw were in the road which separates, the main road which separates the veld next to Boipatong and the veld next to KwaMadala.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And all three military vehicles moved towards the corner where that garage is, where the robots are.

MR BERGER: They turned at the garage and facing the way to, moving down the way to Vanderbijl Park.

MR BERGER: That was the one that came from Cape Gate side, turned the corner, turned left at the corner?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the other two reversed towards the corner from along the main road?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And all three military vehicles remained there whilst you and the other attackers congregated in the veld before crossing the road?

MR MAZIBUKO: When they stopped, even by the time Themba was shooting at them, we were moving but there were other people who were sitting down.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that after you had finished the attack in Boipatong you all moved to that veld outside Boipatong and waited for all the attackers to join you before you crossed the road?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I was leaving Boipatong there were already other people in front of me, so when I arrived at them I did not sit and I did not stand, so I was always moving.  That was the time when Themba was shooting towards the soldiers.  So there were other people who were standing there but I was moving.

MR BERGER: And the people who were standing in the veld, there were a large number of people, in fact most of the attackers were there in the veld, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, most of them were already there.