Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: The answer is yes, because if the vigilante group did not attack me, I wouldn't go to jail and be sentenced for this case.  I was not doing this with a certain aim, but these people were attacking us.
	As the people who were trying to protect us, this happened and I was also a member of the SDU, we were defending wherever necessary.  I can say if it was not for the vigilante group, I wouldn't be here today.
	Secondly, as this whole thing unfolded, it happened in such a way that the person that I nearly killed, was a well respected person who was innocent, who knew nothing, and that is actually disturbing me.  If he was hit by that bullet, that would be a problem because he was just innocent, he was just a teacher.
	That is what is disturbing me.  I don't know how to put this really, because the explanation that you need, I think it is obvious, self-explanatory.  Not unless I want to put lies, if I explain further, I will end up telling lies.  There is no need for me to tell lies and mention people who sent me to do this, but because everyone was involved in this violence, everyone was effected by this violence in Tokoza and people were trying to protect themselves, it is very difficult to explain this violence, because people would do whatever to protect themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to look at page 276 of your application.  Did you fill the form in yourself?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it is completed in English.  Can you understand English?  I am going to ask the Interpreter to interpret it into Zulu as well when I have read it, so that there is no misunderstanding.
	Paragraph 10(a) asks you to state the political objective sought to be achieved.  By that is meant you must state the political objective sought to be achieved by your actions and your answer there is due to the situation of violence, I was protecting myself.
	10(b) asks of you to state your justification for regarding such acts or omissions or offences as acts, omissions or offences associated with a political objective.  Your answer there is everybody has a right to life.   So as an individual I was protecting that right.
	Do you understand it, do you understand the questions and the answers?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you want to change in either those answers?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I don't think so.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, these two answers indicate to me at least, that you were acting in self defence.  Am I correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were protecting yourself from attack on that particular day at that particular time and therefore you shot?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There was nothing political about it?  You were acting in self defence as any other person would do, aside from politics, when being attacked?  You ran away, then you shot in order to stop what you thought was a continuance of an attack on you?  Do I understand it correctly?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you acted there, you did not act with any intention of having any political achievement?  Is that correct, you were merely protecting your own life because as you say, you have a right to life and you were protecting that right?   If I am wrong, tell me.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: You are not wrong, but the way things happened there, you want to say that - you mean that you were going to take this case seriously if the defendant was one of the people who were attacking me?

CHAIRPERSON: No.  Please don't try to guess what I am going to do.  I don't know myself yet what I am going to do.  I must still consider this application.
	I want to put myself and my colleagues in the best position that we can be to properly consider this matter.  We are duty bound to do so.  Do you understand?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore I am asking you all these questions to clarify aspects so that I can see if I can consider the matter properly.
	I have not made up my mind yet, neither have my colleagues.  Do you understand?  And for your information, we take every application seriously.  I am trying to give you every opportunity to give us information so that we can properly understand the application.  Do you understand?  I am not trying to catch you out, I am trying to acquire an understanding for your position before we sit down and talk about it, consult each other so that we can make the correct finding.  Do you understand?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: As  I was saying, as I understand what you said here, and you say you repeat what you wrote, that in actual fact your actions was that for the purposes of protecting your own life, not for the purposes of achieving any political objective on that day and at that time?  Am I correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I won't agree with you because if this person didn't start this problem first, if he didn't start this with me, he was going to injure other people.  I was not protecting only myself.  The same people would injure the other people.
	We were in possession of our arms, because we were protecting the community.  We were not doing that because we felt good about it.  We were doing it for our community and it happened that I met with this problem and it happened to the wrong person.

CHAIRPERSON: When you filled in this application form, question 10(a) did you understand that question?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I can say if you don't get assistance from the people who are well conversant about this matter, maybe I can say I did not understand the question.  Because when I look at it, I think he or she did not give the answer as to what the Commission or Committee would expect.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't expect anything.  We must just read the answers.  What did you understand by that question?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: You have to read it because I don't have a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: State the political objective sought to be achieved.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand now.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand it in the same way on that day, when you filled in the application form?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: No, I did not understand it the same way as I do now.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I find that strange.  About five minutes ago, I read the same question and answers and you indicated that everything was in order, you did not wish to change anything.  Do you recall that?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I wanted to know whether you were interested in what I filled in this form, or whether you were interested in the way things happened or the objectives or whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, I read out the question which was interpreted and the answer, correct?  Do you recall that?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I gave you an opportunity to amend anything that you wanted to, do you recall that?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And if there was something wrong with the question and you didn't understand it, it would mean your answer was incorrect, not so?  But yet you said everything was in order?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I am a bit confused now, because I am answering your question now, and this side I have to refer to the papers, I am a bit confused.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I am going to ask you the simple question again.  What political objective did you seek to achieve in your actions when you shot at the two teachers who were still in the school yard?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: As far as I am concerned, I told myself that if I killed these people, or I have killed the IFP members, that is the answer that you need because those people as far as I am concerned, were IFP members.
	We were fighting against, we were fighting with these IFP members.