Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: From some people in the hostel at GN17.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was that man you bought it from?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I do not remember his name but he was a person from uMsinga.

ADV DE JAGER: What kind of ammunition did you buy?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: SP12 pellets.

ADV DE JAGER: That's shotgun pellets?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And what kind of weapon did you take from the deceased?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It was a homemade firearm, a 9 mm.

ADV DE JAGER: And what happened to those weapons?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I gave them to the other comrades who did not have firearms so that we could protect ourselves.

ADV DE JAGER: Myboy told the court that you bought liquor at the shebeen, Castles, with the money?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: That was a huge mistake.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it a mistake or a lie?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It was a blue lie.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you go to the shebeen afterwards?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I did not consume alcohol because of the situation which was bad.

MR MALAN: Did you never consume alcohol or did you not consume alcohol then, what is your evidence.  Did you not consume alcohol on that day because of the situation or are you a teetotaller.  What is your evidence?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I did used to drink but because of the situation in the area I could not afford to drink because if I would be found drunk I could get myself injured.

MR MALAN: Where did you sell the wristwatches?  Let me just get this clear, in the summary of facts and according to the evidence and statements made by Myboy and yourself and others, sort of consensus of the evidence is that you took money from both victims and wristwatches from both victims.  In other words you took a wristwatch also off Mr Cele.  What did you do with the wristwatches?  Or let me put it in order, sorry, let me say firstly, did you - can you remember taking a watch from both Cele and Mavundla?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I remember taking a watch, a wristwatch from Mavundla, I don't remember with regards to Cele.

MR MALAN: Is it possible that you did take the watch from Cele?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No.

MR MALAN: Did you take money off Cele?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No.

MR MALAN: Did you take money off Mavundla?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: So what did you do with the wristwatch?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I sold the wristwatch.

MR MALAN: Did you sell it yourself?  Who sold it?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I sold it.

MR MALAN: Where did you sell it?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: At GN17, the hostel.

MR MALAN: What did you get for the watch?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I received R20.

MR MALAN: You sold it at the hostel?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is that the ANC hostel?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It's a mixed hostel.

MR MALAN: Did you sell it to ANC members or to IFP members or to ANC supporter or to an IFP supporter?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I sold it to any particular person.

MR MALAN: You didn't mind whether it was a supporter of the IFP or the ANC?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No I did not mind.

MR MALAN: Now you with the R30 in cash and let's assume that you did not buy any liquor and the R20 that you got for the watch you had R50, what ammunition did you buy and where did you buy it?  You bought this SP12, where did you buy it?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Where did you buy it and from whom?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: At GN17.

MR MALAN: At the hostel?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: At the same time you sold the watch?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: You exchanged the watch for the ammunition?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I sold the watch, I received the cash thereafter went and bought ammunition.

MR MALAN: You went where?  Weren't you at the hostel then?  Did you not receive the cash for the watch at the hostel?  Did you not buy the ammunition at the hostel?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you buy it that same occasion or did you make a second visit to the hostel to buy the ammunition?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I performed these transactions on the same day.

MR MALAN: At the same time?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: With the same person?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No.

MR MALAN: Did you know who to buy the ammunition from, how did you get to the seller of the SP12?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I knew who to buy the ammunition from.

MR MALAN: Who was that person that you got the ammunition from?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: A certain man by the surname of Zulu.

MR MALAN: A man by the surname of Zulu?  Was he an IFP supporter or an ANC supporter?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: He was not affiliated to any political organisation.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat, do you have any questions?  I take it that you have?

MS LOONAT: No Madame Chair, I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that you're not going to have a single question to re-examine Mr Ngcobo on, Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to give us your legal address?

MS LOONAT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But before we proceed to do so, Ms Thabethe, is this matter opposed?

MS THABETHE: No Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat you may proceed to give us your address but would you prefer that you do that after lunch?  I know that it's five to 1, maybe we should adjourn for lunch until half past 1 whereafter we would then expect you to address us?

MS LOONAT: Madame Chair, I would prefer it after lunch, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, would that be in order with you?

MR MOLOHLANYE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until 1.30.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As the Committee pleases.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat are you in a position to commence with your argument?

MS LOONAT: Sorry I missed that Madame Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to commence with your legal argument?

UNKNOWN: Yes, certainly Madame Chair, thank you.
	Madame Chair, Honourable Members of the Committee, my learned colleagues, my client is an uneducated, simple man of mature years.  He has committed no offences for which he could be charged throughout his life.  He is now 40 years old.  His fight for survival, warding off the persistent unprovoked attacks by the IFP on his homestead albeit an informal settlement, was aimed not at him personally but generally at ANC supporters in his area of which he has been and still is a staunch member since the '80's and this eventually took it's toll on him.
	He was instructed to do something positive on the 20th July 1991 in furtherance of his political struggle.  Together with two ANC members there was a common purpose and it was to eliminate the deceased who were known IFP members.  The sole purpose was to achieve peace.

MR MALAN: Sorry, why do you say to eliminate the deceased who were known IFP members?  That's totally contradictory to the evidence, is it not?

MS LOONAT: Sir I understand that they were aware that these were IFP members, according to my clients, because when they raided his area he had known them to be IFP supporters raiding and he recognised them as such.

MR MALAN: Ms Loonat, your client's evidence was that he never saw Mr Cele before, he had no knowledge of him, he'd seen Mavundla before.  That was his specific evidence?

MS LOONAT: I beg your pardon, Mr Malan, yes Mavundla was the Inyanga that he knew and he knew him as the IFP person.  I beg your pardon, then Mr Cele was pointed out to him a being an IFP supporter by Ngcobo, does that satisfy you Sir?
	May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.