Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR VISSER: Very well, let's just stay on this point.  You say one of the things is if such a person would show any signs if they are concerned with their safety, just take it a little bit further?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The position of the person's own safety would be protection in the structure where the person was serving, how would the handling process go about?  He would ask about the people surrounding me, who would know or who would not know of this process, how would communication work.

MR VISSER: Continue?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: And from this one draws an inference as to how far you can take the next step of this recruitment process.

MR VISSER: One would keep in mind then that person is not aware of other informants that's been placed around her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Would you expect that such a person would want to become an informant, would want to know such information from you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In some instances they can draw an inference as to who are possibly informers.

MR VISSER: Do I understand you correctly you say that as to determine the recruitability of an informant is when this person expresses concern as to his or her own safety, is that how I understand you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: So would it be something you would expect from his or her side or what is the position?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is a sign that has to come from the recruited person as to indicate "I am willing to act as an informer" and the attitude would determine if you are successful or not but in the Ndwandwe case ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Or let me ask you this first, did she follow that line, that test, did she pass that test by asking questions?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not say that you said anything to her, that she must be an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, you speak directly to this person, you make her an offer.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: From the first instance when I started talking to her at the house in Onverwagt.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not what you said previously?  You said and I wrote it in English
"I immediately started questioning her about Swaziland and Natal activities"
I immediately started questioning her.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not "I approached her and asked her whether she was prepared to work with us"

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson and such a direct approach would not work.  During the interrogation it led to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's not what I recollect you having said and I will see that it is recorded that you said it.  You're now having it put into your mouth by Mr Visser.

MR MALAN: Did you not say just now when the question was asked of you did you make the offer to her and you said right at the beginning?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: But you did not make the offer right at the beginning?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Right from the start could be day one, this is where we are now.

MR MALAN: Please Mr Botha, you did not have her for a day, you just had her for one night.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: And the whole day back to Pietermaritzburg, the next day when I left her there, that is all the time.

MR MALAN: That is day one and finished, this is not something that leads from day one to day two and day three and day four?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: But in any way, we will see what the record states but you say that the most important objective for you was to recruit her as an informant because that is where she had the most value and you already that evening when you spoke to her, you referred to her becoming an informer, that is your evidence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: I was at the point where I was discussing what the test methods are, how you determine if a person can be recruited or not and you said one of the indications of recruitability is when this one person expresses concern as to what would happen to him or her, what about his or her safety in the situation where he would be placed and you said that if it comes from the person itself, it's a positive indication but in her instance it did not come.  That is how I understand you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And then my question to you would be, if it does not come from the person, could you not at some stage could suggest it to her - "Let us talk about your safety, who are the persons who surround you, what are their names, what are their movements?"  Do you not take that step yourself although it would be of less value to you then, but do you not ask her about that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Regarding the identification of a person's body language or who would be willing, the person would say that they are willing, "I would like to work with you", they make the offer to us, "I do not want to be a detainee, I would rather work with you" and in this instance no such offer was forthcoming from her side and we went through the normal testing methods to find out if she was willing and her high profile and with regard to her history, we had to determine from her body language whether she would be a valuable informer.

MR VISSER: Why are you so hyper-cautious here, please tell us?  What would have happened if she went back to Swaziland and you did not recruit or it would seem to you that you had recruited her as an informant but she was not honest and she goes back to Swaziland, what would the repercussions be thereof?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: One of two possibilities Chairperson.  Firstly if she would co-operate as an informant then she would know under which circumstances she was abducted and brought to us.  Those informants are already known an she would be directly responsible for them or the safety of them and there cooperation with us.  If she would pretend to work with us and betray us then she would betray the informers also.  We have learnt these lessons before and that is why we had the option where if there was any doubt as to the cooperation of the person rather than not do it.

MR VISSER: What about the structures in Swaziland where you already had informers placed, that if she pretended to be an informer and she is not honest about it and she goes back would you expect that something would have happened there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There could be a witch hunt or a witch hunt could have followed, looking for informers in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Who precisely questioned Ndwandwe?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The evening at Onverwagt border post I primarily worked with her and from time to time Brigadier Steyn, Taylor as well as Vorster put questions to her and spoke to her.

MR VISSER: When you reached the end of the session of the first evening, what were your convictions or what was your summary with regard to the recruitment of her as an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Firstly that we would not succeed in recruiting her.

MR VISSER: Or that you did not succeed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that we did not succeed.

MR VISSER: And the following morning arrives, you all went to sleep?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And it's the next morning and earlier you said that the idea would be to recruit her as an informant and to place her immediately in Swaziland.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That would be the ideal situation.

MR VISSER: Why is that so ideal?