Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR NEL: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbane, am I correct in saying from your evidence and from your answers to various questions, that it's clear that Mr Taylor was never at Battery Beach?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir.

MR NEL: Well let me make it simple, was Mr Taylor during this operation, at Battery Beach when you were there?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, he was not there.

MR NEL: Do I understand you correctly when you said that Mr Botha was in charge of this operation, referring to the Ntombi Kubheka operation?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: So would it then be incorrect if anybody else, in notes or in a statement taken from you or in a conversation that you had with anybody, would have noted down that Taylor went to the beach?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is not true, he was not there.

MR NEL: Why I'm asking you this, I want to refer you to page 2 of Exhibit J, apparently the notes taken by Capt de Jongh.  It says there, and this was quoted to you earlier on, the top sentence, first sentence
"Taylor said that it appeared that she (being Ms Kubheka) was hiding information and we should fetch her and take her to the beach."
then the important paragraph says:
"Dube and I (loosely translated) left her at the beach in the car.  Taylor and the other whites came with a kombi."
You say this is incorrect?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it is incorrect, Taylor was not there.

MR NEL: So if these notes were taken down by Capt de Jongh and he had an interview with you whilst doing so, he would have made a mistake or he would suck this out of his thumb?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, because this is not true.

MR NEL: How did you see the late Col Taylor's role in this operation?  How do you see it?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Taylor was there as the overall Commander, the Commander of this mission was Botha.

MR NEL: So Taylor was overall in command and Botha was in charge of this operation?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: If I refer you to your statement on page 131 of bundle 2, can you comment on this last sentence on paragraph 44
"Andy Taylor who was in charge of this operation, paid us R7 000 for this operation."

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As I have already said, Taylor was the overall Commander, so he is the one who paid us this money.  The Commander of the mission was Mr Botha.

MR NEL: That is not what you said just now, Mr Mbane, I asked you who was in charge of the operation and you said Mr Botha, yet in this sentence you say
"Andy Taylor who was in charge of this operation ..."
forget about the R7 000 for the minute, why do you say that in your statement, or is this incorrect?  Specifically:
"... this operation"
the last sentence of paragraph 44.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I know is that Taylor was in charge.  The person that was in charge was Botha, Taylor was the overall Commander.

MR NEL: It's for that very reason ...(intervention)

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: But he is the one who paid us money.

MR NEL: It's for that very reason, if you know that Taylor is not in charge of this operation, why do you state that in your statement made?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that that was a mistake.

MR NEL: I see.  When you arrived at Winkelspruit, have I got the sequence correctly saying that you arrived there, you then went to the veranda, you started drinking, Ms Kubheka's body was removed and then you went to sleep, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR NEL: Now at what stage of this sequence did Mr Miyeza arrive at Winkelspruit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Mr Miyeza arrived after Ms Kubheka had died, he went in and he spoke with the seniors.  From there the body was wrapped and they left and I also slept, because I was sleeping there in the veranda.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nel, if I may just intervene before it slips my mind.
	Was there a telephone at Winkelspruit, there at the shooting range?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we would use public phones and we'd go to the post office to phone.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you know how it came about that Mr Miyeza arrived, or do you think it was just by coincidence that he pitched up at that time, or do you think somebody called him to come?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know, I only saw him when he arrived.  Maybe they used radios to call him, but I'm not sure, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any vehicles leaving that place, from the time that you knew that the deceased was dead and the time of Mr Miyeza's arrival?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	When Miyeza arrived at Winkelspruit, were you or were you not already aware of the fact that Ms Kubheka had died?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, we were aware.

MR NEL: How did you become aware of that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were told that she had already died due to her attack.

MR NEL: And how long after that did Miyeza arrive?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think it was an hour or less than an hour.

MR NEL: And when he arrived, what did he do?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He passed us, he greeted us and he went to that room where Ms Kubheka was interrogated.  I don't know what he did when he arrived there.

MR NEL: Were you and Dube still drinking then or were you already in bed?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were just sitting there, I was just drinking.

MR NEL: So Miyeza went into the room leaving you outside?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: And then what happened?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: After some time one car reversed, they then put the body, Miyeza went out and the white men followed.

MR NEL: Who are these white men?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As I have already said it was Lawrie and the other one.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was Mr Visser who was cross-examining you, determined it was Mr Wasserman and du Preez, he said the two that were recalled.

MR NEL: So it was Mr Miyeza - let me rephrase that, the motor vehicle was reversed close to the door, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, close to the door.

MR NEL: And then what did you see?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I saw a wrapped body and we already knew who that person was.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Nel.
	Were the lights on when the body was being placed in the vehicle?  When I say the lights, the lights on at the veranda in the rooms there.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: There were no lights, we were using batteries.  There was no electricity.

MR NEL: So the body - sorry, Mr Chairperson, can I proceed?  When the body came out of the room it was already wrapped?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: You didn't see it being wrapped?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not.

MR NEL: And it was brought out by Mr Miyeza, Mr Lawrie who we know is Wasserman, and the person who testified, Mr du Preez?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: And the three of them then put the body into this vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Now we know that you had difficulty in remembering what type of vehicle this was, but in fact, was it a kombi or was it a Skyline?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember.

MR NEL: You were watching this all the time?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It's not that I concentrated on that, but I was there on the veranda, sitting there.

MR NEL: Once the body was loaded into the vehicle, who drove off, of the three persons?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I do not know, Sir.

MR NEL: Alright, tell us what happened, what did you see?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: After that we were just there, sitting there and Radebe was already in the car, so we prepared to sleep in the veranda.

MR NEL: Did you see the vehicle with the body leave Winkelspruit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I did.

MR NEL: And what else did you see?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What do you want him to tell us, whether he saw the stars or the lamp pole across the street, or?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Did you see the persons getting into the vehicle and drive off with it, or did you just see the vehicle leave?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I just saw the vehicle leave.