Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: And you are saying that what stands here is incorrect, you were incorrectly transcribed?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you go on to say, which worries me again, Soli then threw the two handgrenades into the bedroom.  The three of us then ran away.
	Who were the three, is it not you, Conrad and Soli?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Only the three of you ran away?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: As I said Joe was on an observation post, he was a distance from us.  When we started to run away, it was after we heard the explosion in the house, we ran towards him, that is what we are trying to explain there.

CHAIRPERSON: So he didn't run away, or he didn't have to run away?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: When we reached him, we passed him and ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not run away?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.  We just walked away.

CHAIRPERSON: But then you go on and say we found Joe at a nearby house there?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, this is the very same incidents I am trying to explain.  We ran away from the house where we had attacked and we were running to his direction, this is where we found him where he was standing, where we left him.

CHAIRPERSON: You found him at a house other than Shabangu's house?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, a distance away from Shabangu's house.

CHAIRPERSON: So when the attack on Shabangu's house took place, Joe was a distance away from Shabangu's house.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact he was at another house?  It may be a nearby house, but he was in fact at another house, that is what you are saying?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wasn't present when the actual attack on Shabangu's house took place?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not at another house, a nearby house?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I would also say, if that is the case, I would also say I was not at the house which we attacked, because I didn't enter the house, I was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say Joe was at a nearby house.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He couldn't have been at two houses at the same time, you must tell us whether he was at Shabangu's house or at a house nearby?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Let me explain this.  When we approached those houses, opposite Mr Shabangu's house there are houses.  We had to pass those houses and we left him in between some of those houses, that is where he stood and observed and we continued to go and attack Joe's house on the other side of the road.
	After the attack we ran back towards Joe's position.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I don't understand his role then.  If you say he was not patrolling, you say he was not patrolling, he was standing at one point and that one point you are now saying, was not at Shabangu's house but at a house nearby, of what use was he to you then?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He was there as a Commander to observe the operation, that everything was carefully carried out.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, are you not trying deliberately to implicate Joe Nkuna?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I don't have any grudge against him.  He even helped me to skip the country.  He is a person whom I trusted the most, so I will say there is no reason I will have to implicate him in any matter which he doesn't have any knowledge of.

ADV TEE: After you had pleaded guilty and you were found guilty, you gave evidence against the Nkuna brothers?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: I would like to know what motivated you to do that?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I was already sentenced and I pleaded guilty.  They kept calling me in prison to come and testify against these people.

ADV TEE: At any stage during your arrest procedure, from the time you were arrested, were you assaulted by the police?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: When did that happen?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Since from the time they arrested me at the house, they started assaulting me.

ADV TEE: Was it a severe assault?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, they were torturing me heavily.  They even suffocated me with some tubes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you testified against the Nkuna brothers, was it as a result of any pressure by anybody or an assault by anybody?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you promised anything?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any motive to testify against them?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any motive to lie against them?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.  What happened is that after I pleaded guilty, they came to call me in Witbank prison, telling me that I have to go to Nelspruit court.  I was transferred to Nelspruit prison.
	And after some few days they took me to court.  Arriving at the court, the State Prosecutor told me that since I have pleaded guilty on all my charges, my co-accused are appearing.  He told me that I have to tell the court what I said at my own trial, so I would say there was no pressure exerted on me to say whatever I had to say.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, at any stage, did the police suggest to you that the list of people that was supposed to be agents, included people other than Shabangu?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I never talked to the police about the list.

CHAIRPERSON: We may have to interrupt you Mr Tee, there is a note that employs us to stick to the arrangement.  Mr Mojapelo, what next?  It would seem that Mr Tee still wants to go on putting questions to the witness and we have gone beyond the time that we have arranged that we would stop by.
	You have some problems about tomorrow, do you want to be excused or if so, what do you - are you going to arrange for somebody to be present or what is the position?

ADV MOJAPELO: Mr Chairman, to minimize the inconvenience and disruptions, I could arrange for someone to be present and should the argument stage be reached, I would propose that if the rest of my colleagues do argue tomorrow, we could submit a written argument.
	But should in the unlikely event of the proceedings still dragging on until Friday, I am available on Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you will be available tomorrow?

ADV PATEL: No Mr Chairman, I have a problem for tomorrow because the way it was indicated to me was that we were going to appear today, alternatively if the matter is postponed, to Friday.  Tomorrow I am having a trial at the Regional court in Nelspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: You will only be available on Friday?

ADV PATEL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got certain ...

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, I note on my cover that this matter was set down for Thursday, the 12th of June.

MR BLACK: That is so.

ADV DE JAGER: And you knew all the way that your Advocate Mr Patel wouldn't be available tomorrow?

ADV MOJAPELO: Mr Chairman, Mr Patel never indicated that he won't be available for the 12th.  The only thing that he informed me about is that on the 10th he will be in Bloemfontein, but on the 11th he will be here and on the 13th he is available.  He never mentioned anything about the 12th.