Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: ...[inaudible] questions was put properly, in the sense that I asked very clearly - I stated very clearly that this is what he got from Mr van Rensburg, I did not say that this was information that Coetzee was imparting directly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOOSA: In fact, I've clarified that at some length.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, it's clear now.

MR MOOSA: I didn't get - if I missed it I'm sorry, your comment on that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Comment on what?

MR MOOSA: On whether you are lying - on whether you are saying that Mr Coetzee is lying about the information he said was imparted to him by Mr van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't comment on that.

MR MOOSA: Mr Coetzee is also telling us that he saw the vehicle that Mr Kondile was using and he describes that vehicle, are you aware of that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I am.

MR MOOSA: Now, are you saying that Mr Coetzee is lying in relation to that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Definitely.

ADV DE JAGER: You are talking while the interpreter is still interpreting and then we can't hear what your answer is.

MR MOOSA: Now, taking it that you are saying that Mr Coetzee is lying in relation to that aspect, the question that I have for you is, what reason does Mr Coetzee have to lie?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't know.  All I can tell you is that the vehicle - I never saw the vehicle, it was left behind in Bloemfontein.  I've described how we left P.E. to Bloemfontein, that's where we got this vehicle.  If he says the vehicle was in Jeffrey's Bay, he's making a big mistake.

MR MOOSA: And he's also making a big mistake I take it, about the number of people who were present at Komatiepoort, including Archie Flemington?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: But Mr Du Plessis, there's no way he could be making a mistake about that, he would in fact be lying according to you, not so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: Mr Chairman, it's 1 o'clock, would this be a convenient time for the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MOOSA: I have quite a way to go.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment now and resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ADV DE JAGER: You are still under oath.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa?

MR MOOSA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Du Plessis, Mr Coetzee, did he ever visit you at Jeffrey's Bay?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, not that I know of.

MR MOOSA: Does that mean he never visited you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Now you say you found a note under the bed in which you were waiting for Mr Kondile to have a bath, is that right?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I wouldn't say: "under the bed", it was under the blankets or under a blanket on his bed.

MR MOOSA: Then there was a bed in those quarters, and was it the same quarters that were depicted in the photo album which is in Volume 1? - that is pages 35 to 38 of Volume 1.  If you look at that photographic album, photograph A gives us a general overview of the police station and if you look at C on page 38, you can see the room where Mr Kondile was allegedly held, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, but we are referring now to the offices and in my letter I referred to the cell.

MR MOOSA: Was Mr Kondile interrogated in the room which is depicted in photograph C on page 38?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't know, there are various offices at Jeffrey's Bay and I don't know at which office he was interrogated.

MR BOOYENS: Could we perhaps have an original Mr Chairman, quite frankly I've got difficulty in understanding this photograph.  I wonder if there's not an original available, maybe the witness will be able to assist us then - I can't really see this.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman, unfortunately I don't have any original documents - original photos in my possession, I only have copies - documents which were produced to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  So it does seem that photograph 38C, the C on page 38 - beyond depicting that it is an office with desks and chairs, it doesn't tell us very much more.

MR MOOSA: Well, also a big window Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOOSA: Mr Coetzee has always mentioned that he found it strange that Mr Kondile was held in what he called: "The White Quarters", are you familiar with that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think he put it like that, yes.

MR MOOSA: But he does say - and he's been consistent about this, that he found Mr Kondile chained to the bed and there was a black policeman with him.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't comment on that.

MR MOOSA: Well, you can comment on this, Mr Kondile was surely a big fish, he was a very important catch for the security branch, not so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

MR MOOSA: He wouldn't be treated like any ordinary prisoner.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: In connection with what?

MR MOOSA: In the way you hold him, in the way you make sure that he is secure and guarded all the time.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: While he was in the cells he was not guarded, he was guarded in the office or in the single quarters later on.  There were policemen who were on night duty and they did night duty at those cells.

MR MOOSA: When we spoke of a big fish Mr Du Plessis, this man was a trained terrorist in your own version, who was close to Chris Hani, is that right?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Could you give a reason why he was interrogated for quite a while by policemen other than in the Eastern Cape section of the security branch?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I've never said that, I said he was interrogated by - as far as I can remember, members from East London, I don't know whether I've said: "for a long period".

MR MOOSA: Well, let me start again, you were in daily contact with Bloemfontein and it is Bloemfontein that I was referring to.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I was not in daily contact with Bloemfontein, I would say: "on a daily basis".  Before he went - was transferred to Port Elizabeth, I was in contact with him and they with me but not on a daily basis.

MR MOOSA: The question really is, why was he interrogated by the policemen in Bloemfontein for what was in fact a period of as much as two weeks?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't comment on that, I've applied that he should be transferred to Port Elizabeth and that happened like that.

MR MOOSA: So you applied and Bloemfontein didn't decide to send him to the Eastern Cape where he would be most relevant, of most use?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think that they would have decided that later on but initially I decided that he should be transferred.

MR MOOSA: But you've told us that you received regular communications from Bloemfontein, you basically knew what was going on with the interrogation, would that be fair?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think so, yes.

MR MOOSA: So surely Mr Du Plessis, you are in a position to answer on basis Mr Kondile was interrogated by security branch policemen who happen not to be from the area in which he would likely be ...[indistinct]

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't know how I'm going to comment on that.  If they wanted to interrogate him and they did interrogate him about relevant things - Bloemfontein also monitored the activities in Lesotho and they interrogated him about this and this was also in the report that they issued about this.

MR MOOSA: You've mentioned the Lesotho network in some detail and you've also quite a few times mentioned photographic albums, am I right?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.