Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: He had put her on the floor so that people could not see that we were with a white person in the truck.  He had her bent over so that people could not see.
	Have you heard Ma'am?

UNKNOWN: Yes, is that (indistinct), I just want clarification, was she laying on the floor, or seated on the seat and bent over, that is really what I wasn't sure about.  Can you just explain that?  Just explain was she seated and bent over, or was she on the floor, what was your observation, just to clarify that, thank you.

ZAMA THUTHA: On the chair, bent over.  As you are sitting on the chair and you bend over like that, so that a person from a distance cannot see you.
	We left in the truck, as we drove passed a school in the same area Thandekulo overtook us in a car.  He signalled so that I knew where we were going to meet.
	He had not told me previously where we were going to meet, it is only my co-accused who had informed me.  He signalled to me as to where we were to meet.
	I then left according to his direction, until I drove over Mbashi.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, can I just once again take you one step back.  I understand the signalling by Thandekulo, what exactly did your co-accused say your RV was, had he told you that.  Where did he say you were going to meet Thandekulo before Thandekulo passed you?

ZAMA THUTHA: He named the place, I did not know the place because I was not from the area.  Thandekulo had told my co-accused, however I don't remember what the name of the place was.
	What I do remember is the place where we met.  It is just over the Mbashi river.   We got there, Thandekulo had parked his car already next to the road.  There were shrubs, bushes next to the road.  He had parked his car behind a bush.
	A person from a distance could not really see that there was a car parked there.  It is the truck that one could see because of the height of the vehicle.
	When we got there, my co-accused met with Thandekulo.  I was left behind to see what was in the truck that I had not seen before.
	My co-accused then came whilst I was still searching with Thandekulo.  I had gone behind the truck already to close the doors because whilst we were driving, they were wide open.
	There were milk tanks, I got an opportunity to close the milk tanks because they were open.  When I came back towards the truck, my co-accused said to me that we should take this girl over the fence, because Thandekulo was going to deal with her.  I don't know what he was going to do with her, maybe he was going to get information.  I don't know what he was going to do.
	We took her over the fence.  She was walking on her two feet.  But she showed resistance because she did not know where she was being taken.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did she say she did not want to be taken over to the fence, the other side of the fence?

ZAMA THUTHA: She did not say, but I could see that she was resisting.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you see which meant to you that she was resisting?

ZAMA THUTHA: Because I also had to go and help to take her over, she had to be dragged to be taken there, she did not want to go.

MR LAX: So was she resisting you, and trying to get away, and fighting with you and you had to try and control her, is that what you are saying, and then drag her across?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, she was not trying to fight.  She was not trying to run away either, but she was speaking English.  I could not follow what she was saying, she spoke.

MR LAX: So she was fully conscious when you were trying to take her across?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not take note of what was going on on her face.  I would give a satisfactory report if I could have looked at her face, I did not see the face properly.

MR LAX: Well, an unconscious person can't talk to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Or walk on her two feet.

MR LAX: Or walk on her two feet, or resist?

ZAMA THUTHA: What are you saying then?

MR LAX: If she was doing all of those things, surely she couldn't have been unconscious.  That is all I am asking you.  Just answer my question.  I am not saying you said she was unconscious, I am asking you whether she was unconscious.

ZAMA THUTHA: I couldn't say that she was unconscious because she would not be able to walk, if she was unconscious.  It is just that she did not want to go to where she was being taken.  She did not want to obey the order that we were giving her.
	She knew that she did not have any good relationship with us.  This is why she did not want to go to wherever we were taking her.

MR LAX: So she could hear you issuing her instructions?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I could say that she heard us, because her ears were not blocked in any way.

MR LAX: Carry on Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue, then when you were taking her through the fence, what happened thereafter?  You took her out of the car and you were going to take her through the fence, what happened thereafter?  Continue.

ZAMA THUTHA: Thandekulo carried her, he was holding her by the arm, took her to a place underneath the tree.
	He then told the co-accused to go to the truck to see what else was there.  He went, I followed behind him.  I also wanted to check.  I wanted to see how the truck worked as well, because it had a power brakes that I was not used to.
	As I was going towards the truck, I heard a bang behind me.  I looked and Thandekulo was shooting there.  I went back to the truck, I closed the doors.  Thandekulo said I must not leave.  He asked what weapon I was carrying, he asked how many bullets I've got in the home made rifle and I said there was one.  He then gave me the weapon that he was using.
	I left this weapon in the truck, we left Thandekulo behind.  I didn't see him overtaking us again on the way until we got to the tarred road.  When we were on the tar road, I saw Thandekulo coming, going towards Idutywa.
	When we were at Nqolo's, just before Idutywa I saw a road block ahead of us and just above us there was a helicopter, I could hear the sound.
	I turned back, Thandekulo had just passed the road block, there were traffic cops.  I turned back.  As I turned back, the helicopter was already there, trying to stop me.  The van with the Police also was behind me by that time.
	I stopped, we got out.  The Police stopped us.  We stood in front of the truck.  There were a whole lot of Transkeian Police by then.  
	There were a whole lot of Police by then.  We were standing in front, Nqeba (indistinct), they were all there, the Police.  They didn't ask anything, they just came to us and beat us up.
	Even the Policeman that is here in this room, he beat us up immensely.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you could indicate which Policeman in this room, beat you up?

ZAMA THUTHA: Right there, smiling at the back, with the card, that is a Transkeian Police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell us, do you know his name?

ZAMA THUTHA: I have forgotten his name, but I know him well.  He is a brother to the one that has passed away, or he is a colleague, it is not clear, to the one who also was beating me up.
	He's got a light blue shirt on, with a tie, multi-coloured tie with red eyes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, he is just sitting next to Captain Els.

ZAMA THUTHA: That is exactly the one.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't know what all the furore is about, if he is referring to, that is Captain Pangele who will be called.
	He attended the scene, found Donnie Meyers, he will give evidence about the photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is Captain Pangele?

MR PRIOR: Just put up your hand, Captain.  Pangele.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the man?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, he is one of the Police that beat me up immensely.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have heard here that certain amount of money was discovered from your person.  Can you tell the Committee how this money was found in your person?