Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-24

JUDGE WILSON: But we know it's not true, he didn't have many arms.  You found one weapon there of any use to you, so don't come and tell us stories about knowing he had lots of arms.  Hasn't your attorney told you that you must be honest and frank with us?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I am telling the truth, there is no lie I am telling, I am telling the whole truth.  Mr Fourie was one of those people who had many arms in the farms.  We only took those who we thought they are important to us and were able to take.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you now suggesting you left other arms behind?  Please....

HENDRIK LEEUW: I have to believe that we did.  We searched for keys to open other safes, we didn't get those keys, therefore we were not able to get other arms there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there more than one safe?

HENDRIK LEEUW: There was another small safe, it was this kind of small, which we didn't get the keys for, for that safe.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You were not able to open that safe?

HENDRIK LEEUW: (No interpreted reply)

JUDGE WILSON: Will you indicate the size again?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was at that distance, the length was that size and the width was that size.

JUDGE WILSON: 18 inches high and a foot wide.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So you were not able to open that safe?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We were not able to get the keys, the time we were asking this woman to give us the keys we were not able to get them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you know whether there were other weapons in that safe or not?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We suspected that there were arms in that safe.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And when you went there did you know that you would find only two firearms?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We didn't hope to get two firearms.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When did you know that Mr Fourie kept weapons on his place?  Was it during the time when you lived there or after you left?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We know that farm owners had many firearms, we used to see them with firearms in many instances.

JUDGE WILSON: We know that farm owners had many firearms, is that your explanation after saying Mr Fourie had many firearms?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes they had many firearms.

JUDGE MGOEPE: After your departure in - some 15 years before you never visited that farm again?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes I didn't go there again Sir, because my parents have already left that area, that farm.
NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY ADV THABETHE
NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chair I am informed now by the person leading the evidence that apparently the Commission has decided to sit until late this evening.  Unfortunately I am sitting in another commission on taxi violence and we are due to take evidence at five this afternoon.  But I have arranged with the person taking the evidence tomorrow, perhaps we can start earlier than nine.

JUDGE WILSON: We will adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, but should anything transpire in the interim and we need to get in touch with you, could you leave your contact number with Mr Mpshe?

MR MTHEMBU: I will Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Due to circumstances beyond our control we are now adjourning until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS