Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

MS GOBODO: Could you explain to us and tell us how you survived and went threw this - your brothers hanging?

GQIBILE HANS: My father was suffering from rheumatism and I was this -  the sole breadwinner.

MS GOBODO: Are you the eldest?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, I am.

MS GOBODO: How old was Gqibile at the time?

GQIBILE HANS: He was  born in 1940 so he was about 27 years old at the time.  And young as he was he was hanged.  He had children  all ready.

MS GOBODO: How many children did he have?

GQIBILE HANS: He had two children.

MS GOBODO: Were are those children now?

GQIBILE HANS: They are now in Lesotho, quite old.

MS GOBODO: Are they independent?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, they are.

MS GOBODO: Do you still communicate with his children?

GQIBILE HANS: No, it's quite a long time that we - we saw these children.

MS GOBODO: Where is their mother?

GQIBILE HANS: Their mother got married.

MS GOBODO: It must have been very difficult - also that your mother to got a stoke because she had also gone there to witness her sons death.  I thank you therefore, there's nothing more unless you want to have - you have some additional information.

GQIBILE HANS: I would like to know that if a person is a member an organization, is it right for the law to sentence that person to death if he has not killed anyone?

MS GOBODO: I'm going to answer your question by saying that these - this the question that is asked by most people here in South Africa.  We all ask whether it was justifiable that this should happen to your brother and we therefore have a duty to investigate whether this was right.  It becomes very difficult therefore if it involves someone's life - someone died because he has all ready died. 
 But our hope is that if we investigate and find out the senselessness of all these happenings, we all have to make sure that this does not happen again.  And it is very important therefore, think, that what can we do to the people and what can the people do as means that our present Government should see to it that history should not repeat itself.  We shall be very happy  because there are many things that happened which were difficult to us.  
People would get a job those days but if one was to get a high salary, that salary would have to be reduced or one would have to be transferred either to Transkei or to Mtanzane - which was a place unknown to the person.  Yes, that was one of the pass laws, I must thank you, I'm now going to hand you over to my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Denzil Potgieter?

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson, Mr Hans your testimony raises very important questions but it is - I'll just wait for you to  put it on - I say that your testimony - can you hear?

GQIBILE HANS: No

ADV POTGIETER: Have you got it on number 3, briefer?  Can you hear that - can you hear, okay.  Looks like our problem is solved.  Is that better Mr Hans?

GQIBILE HANS: Ja

ADV POTGIETER: Very good, now I'll just repeat - I say your testimony raised many important questions but we would need to look into the particular case that was raised.  Can I just ask you your brother was he standing trial with some other people, he was not on his own?

GQIBILE HANS: He was with others?

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] many were facing - I'm talking about the second charges, it seems to be treason that they were charged with, I'm talking about that case where they were given the death penalty - can you remember how many they were - how many accused were in that case?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, I can still remember.  There were eight of them.

ADV POTGIETER: And do you still remember some of the name?

GQIBILE HANS: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: It's not necessary to give it now, you can - you can supply it to us, but would you be able to give us some of the name?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, one was Khoboka, Hans, Sikhunla, Fatyela, Jaxha, Mgweba, Makula,  Goliliswe Ndamene ...[intervention]

ADV POTGIETER: Were they all from Paarl?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, they were all from Paarl.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] accused of, the treason trail, that incident, was it alleged to have happened in Paarl?

GQIBILE HANS: Nothing had actually happened here in Paarl but they were alleged to have been in - intending to overthrow the Government, so that's why they were sentenced.

ADV POTGIETER: The allegation that  the decision was taken in Paarl - the decision to try and overthrow the Government was taken in Paarl.  Was that the case that was against them?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, it was in the Supreme Court because the judge said their aim was to overthrow he Government.  And therefore he gave them option that they were to be hanged or the were to stay in jail for life.

ADV POTGIETER: Were all  8 of them sentenced in the same way, were they all given the death penalty? END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A...

GQIBILE HANS: They were just given a few years sentence.

ADV POTGIETER: Just finally the case on which your brother was sentenced to 3 years, which he went to Robben Island for, where was that case heard -  was it heard in Paarl or where was it heard?

GQIBILE HANS: He was arrested here in Paarl, they fetched him from home.

ADV POTGIETER: And did they say [indistinct] after the three years.

GQIBILE HANS: Three years

ADV POTGIETER: In Paarl?  And was he with the same persons in that case as well?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, they were all together, there ten of them but two were sentenced to three years and acquitted and they were sent to Pretoria.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Hans.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo?

MS GOBODO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, you reminded me of that the names that have been mentioned were mentioned earlier on during our hearings in Worcester by Mr Mkabile who also was once in Robben Island and one of his request was that one - some of those like Fatyela - it should be investigated what happened to them.  That was one of his requests, so you also mention his name as one of the people who was with your brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hans we thank you for coming here today to come a tell us about your pain.  Sometimes it becomes very difficult to comfort a person but we are aware that there was great contribution from so many people to put us where we are today.  We're all in the struggle but unfortunately some of the people had to sacrifice their lives.  We therefore thank God that he has put us to where we are today - as Pumla has all ready said.
Another intention is that all these bad events and the bad handling of the people of the past legacy, we now say now that we are free this must not happen again.  We are going to try to investigate to get answers to the questions that you asked as you - it was said earlier on that there are many people who still want to know how it all happened.  We still learn that some people were sentenced to twice for one - for one thing which was out of order because that is what we know that if you appeared before a court and you're sentenced and you are once more sent back to court, that is something unheard of.  We are going to investigate exactly why this was the case.

GQIBILE HANS: One other thing I'd like to mention is that he wrote me a letter and mentioned someone who - whom he alleged as an informer but who died.  And he said that we should not bear a grudge against that person, because he said that person was responsible for what happened to them and yet he had been one of them.  That he said God will answer, but he will not answer immediately, he would answer at His own time.  But unfortunately that particular person died in an accident and then he said that we should educate our children so that they should be able to rule this country in a very prosperous way.

MS GOBODO: We thank for all that you have told us, thank you.