Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to take the matter any further, I've already covered the position Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: I just want to make it clear what I said to Mr Cook about this report was that as far as I was concerned, the report could go in.  I didn't require the expert to give evidence but that was subject of course to the - Mr Papier was there, that was subject to his attitude.

CHAIRPERSON: We've covered that ground now, it does seem that in the interest of the people that were vitally affected, that they be afforded an opportunity to examine and test the contents of this report through the evidence of the party making that report.
	My question to you Mr Cook is, are you calling any other evidence at this stage?

MR COOK: No further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Donan, are you calling witnesses?

MR DONAN: I do have a witness Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether this would be a convenient time or whether you would prefer ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are you calling witnesses?

MR PAPIER: No, Honourable Chair, our case is closed.

CHAIRPERSON: Time Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: There's nothing wrong with the - the evidence will be broken then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it doesn't matter we'll get through as much
as we can.

MR DONAN: The witness is Niclo Pedro.  The Committee will recall that last time I represented Mr Pedro and I put certain questions on his behalf to Mr Benzien, my other client's questioned Mr Benzien themselves.  And to get Mr Pedro directly involved, I must inform the Committee that he's sensitive as the Committee well knows as every victim is and that is a difficulty which I have.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Donan, just for the sake of the recording, who are you representing today because it's not on the record?

MR DONAN: I'm representing the Yengeni trialists, that would be Mr Yengeni - in essence, the people who cross-examined Mr Benzien on the last occasion and the Forbes trialists, Ashley Forbes, Peter Jacobs, Niclo Pedro who I represented and Anwar Dramat.

CHAIRPERSON: Please call your witness.
	What are you full names?

NICLO PEDRO: Niclo ...[inaudible] Pedro.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to take the oath?

NICLO PEDRO: (sworn states)

MR DONAN: Mr Pedro, do you prefer to give your evidence in Afrikaans?

NICLO PEDRO: I'm going to try to speak both languages, I am Afrikaans speaking but if I feel to express myself in English I will
do that.

MR DONAN: Thank you.  Mr Pedro, you were arrested by the security police during August of 1987, is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: That's correct.

MR DONAN: And when ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could somebody kindly help with witness with - he says he wants to give evidence in Afrikaans so there's no translation at the moment, he's not wearing earphones and I don't know whether he knows how to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were arrested in August 1987?

NICLO PEDRO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DONAN: After you arrest you met Mr Benzien, is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, I met him here in Cape Town.

MR DONAN: Could you tell the court, I beg your pardon the Committee about where you met him and how you met him and what happened.  I'll leave it up to you to tell the story.

NICLO PEDRO: At that stage he was a Warrant Officer and I met him here in Cape Town.  I was brought from where I had been caught, near the Lesotho border and I was brought to Cape Town.   When I arrived in Cape Town I was taken to Culemborg here in Cape Town, that's in the Culemborg building.   I was left in a room and a whole number of security policemen came in and out of this room to come and look at me to see what I looked like.

MR DONAN: Who were they?

NICLO PEDRO: Most of them were the names that you've referred to, Nel, Nortje, Benzien, Captain Liebenberg and there were also others whose names I didn't know who just popped in and out just to come and have a look at me.  And they said: "Oh, so you're Jerome, we thought that you're a big man now we see you're a short small man".
	But when the interrogation started Benzien and Nortje were present, they were the only other people in the room with me.  When they started interrogating me the intimidation had already taken effect, this intimidation of me had already started when I was in this room and the security policemen came in and out to have a good look at me.
	When they were alone with me they took off all my clothes and there was a mesh wire in front of the window and they tied me up against this mesh wire,  that meant that I could barely stand and they started questioning me regarding several aspects.  That is where I met Benzien for the first time.

MR DONAN: I'm sorry to interrupt you, could you tell the Committee more specifically who were the people present and what each one of them did as far as you can recall.

NICLO PEDRO: As far as I can remember, the people who were present right at the start before they actually started questioning me, I can't remember specific names and I can't remember who did what but it pertinently put to me firstly that nobody knew that I had been arrested, so I was basically in their hands - that I can recall very clearly.  And the other thing which they said to me was that I would have to give my co-operation otherwise I would see what was going to happen.
	That was the start of it and obviously at that stage I was already quite scared as to what could possibly happen to me.  As I've said for me the real interrogation started when Benzien and Nortje started questioning me.  The interrogation was such that whilst they were asking me questions, they also told me to take off my clothes because they wanted to test whether certain things which Peter Jacobs and Ashley Forbes had said - whether I had any knowledge of that and I said I didn't have such knowledge.  That's when they told me to take off my clothes and that is when they tied me up to this mesh in front of the window.
	Do you want me to continue?

MR DONAN: Yes, please.