Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

UNKNOWN: And then in your affidavit you say you approached the people who were in the vehicle, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How many were you?

MR NHLAPO: There were three of us, but the third one did not come nearer.

UNKNOWN: Could he be seen by the people in the car or not?

MR NHLAPO: I cannot say.

UNKNOWN: I'm asking you this question because it's my instructions that there were two of you and not three of you, would you say this is correct?

MR NHLAPO: There were three of us, they could not or they may not have seen the third person, but there were three of us.

UNKNOWN: In your affidavit on page 4 you also stated that you ordered the policeman to hand over his firearm, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you assume that the people who were sitting in the car were both policemen?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I assumed so.

UNKNOWN: And you say he refused to produce his firearm, is that your evidence?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated.

UNKNOWN: You say he refused to hand over his firearm, is that your evidence?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: My question to you is, how did you know that he had a firearm with him?

MR NHLAPO: As I've explained, we saw this police radio in the vehicle and we saw these two people and we concluded that ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Were these people in uniform, police uniform?

MR NHLAPO: No, they were not in police uniform.

UNKNOWN: Mr Nhlapo, it's my instructions that when you approached the vehicle, you did not order or you did not demand a firearm.  It is my instructions that you demanded the car keys, what is your response to that?  Actually let me correct myself, it is my instructions that you were standing outside and the other guy you were with entered the car and demanded car keys, what is your response to that?

MR NHLAPO: On approaching these people, on approaching the vehicle, I stood on the passenger or next to the passenger door and my friend went around to the driver's door.  That is when I produced a firearm and pointed it at one of them and after that I told the one who was sitting at the back not to move and at the same time told my friend to take the firearm after which he should take the keys of the vehicle so as to neutralise them.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, let's take this step by step.  Are you saying you did demand the car keys from them?

MR NHLAPO: My friend who was on the other side of the vehicle did take the keys.  I told the other one not to move.

UNKNOWN: So who demanded the firearms from them?

MR NHLAPO: My friend who was on the driver's door.

UNKNOWN: So is it your evidence that he demanded firearms and the car keys?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain why you didn't put that in your affidavit, that he should hand over not only his firearm, but also the car keys?

MR NHLAPO: I indicated that I referred to the firearm, but my friend on the other side was the one who took the car key.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I just want to clarify this properly.  You're saying your friend demanded the firearms and the car keys.

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You were standing outside?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You did not demand anything from them, it's your friend who demanded the car keys and the firearm?

MR NHLAPO: I pointed the firearm at these people and said the people should not move and my friend demanded the firearm and the car key.

UNKNOWN: So my question still remains, why didn't you write the fact that you also demanded the car keys, in your affidavit?

MR NHLAPO: My legal representative did not ask me about that, but yes, that's what happened.

UNKNOWN: It's also - you've written that the deceased lifted his firearm up and wanted to shoot you, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: When I pointed it at him he resisted, he would not listen to me or obey what I was saying, then as soon as he lifted up his arm with the firearm I could hear that we were in danger.

UNKNOWN: How did you see that he was going for his firearm if you were outside the car and he was inside the car?

MR NHLAPO: The car door was open and I could tell his movement.

UNKNOWN: Where did he shift his arm to?

MR NHLAPO: He shifted his arm to where the firearm was.

UNKNOWN: Whereabouts on his body would you say this was, was it near his hip, was it in front, was it at the back?

MR NHLAPO: On the side.

UNKNOWN: When you say on the side, do you mean just above the hip?  Would that be correct?

MR NHLAPO: On the waist, around his waist.

UNKNOWN: Did you see the firearm, or you just assumed that he was reaching for his firearm?

MR NHLAPO: The firearm was on the other side, I could not tell because I was on the opposite direction, or rather the opposite side.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I didn't get that, what are you saying?  Where was his firearm?

MR NHLAPO: On the waist, on his waist.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Ms Interpreter, are we getting the Zulu translation or the Xhosa translation?  It's in, it could be the buttock or the waist.

INTERPRETER: Okay, let the witness clarify that.

ADV SIGODI: Could you indicate on your body where he got the firearm?

MR NHLAPO: May I demonstrate this, can I stand up?

INTERPRETER: Where the witness is pointing.

UNKNOWN: Which side?

ADV SIGODI: The witness is pointing on his waist.

UNKNOWN: Which side, on the right-hand side or on the left-hand side?

MR NHLAPO: On the right-hand side.

UNKNOWN: It's also my instructions, Mr Nhlapo, that the deceased had his gun behind him, not on the side, what is your comment to that?

MR NHLAPO: That I would not repudiate, but I saw on the side.  What I saw was happening on the side, not necessarily the back.

UNKNOWN: It is also my instruction, Mr Nhlapo, that there was no stage where the deceased lifted up his firearm with an intention to shoot you as you have alleged in your affidavit.  What is your comment on that?

MR NHLAPO: How would I have shot at him when he was not drawing out his gun?

UNKNOWN: Mr Nhlapo, it's just been your evidence that you saw him moving his arm as if he was going to remove his firearm.

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that's my evidence.

UNKNOWN: That's not what your affidavit says, your affidavit says
"He however lifted up his firearm and it was clearly his intention to shoot me."
Those are two different things.  So which version is the right one, did he act as if he was going to pull out his firearm, which according to you was on his waist, on the right-hand side, or did he lift his firearm up with a clear intention that he was going to shoot you?  Which version is the right one?

MR NHLAPO: No, he did not lift up his firearm in his hand, but he acted as if he was drawing out or pulling out the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't see his firearm?

MR NHLAPO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 25 of your affidavit reads as follows
"I ordered the policeman to hand over his firearm, he refused to do this.  He did however lift up his firearm and it was clearly his intention to shoot me."

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I understand that, but I did not say that as such, I said he did not lift up his firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to adjourn for lunch, you can think about the following question as well.  If you didn't see the firearm, how were you able to tell him that he should hand it over?

MR NHLAPO: I knew that he was a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for lunch.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: Will the court please rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

THEMBA NHLAPO: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman, can I proceed?
	Mr Nhlapo, it's my instructions that nobody ordered any handing over of a firearm, the guy you were with went into the car and demanded the car keys and you were standing outside of the car, what is your response to that?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct, this person went to the drivers seat and I was standing outside, yes that is correct.