Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR DEMPSEY: No, I do not have the documents in front of me but I did hand them in.  Which particular documents are you referring to?  Are these the ...[indistinct] documents?  Are you referring to the ...[indistinct] documents?

MR PIGOU: I am.

MR DEMPSEY: I apologise for not having brought them with me but I have provided them to you as requested and I have briefly glanced at them.

MR PIGOU: Senior Superintendent Dempsey, could you tell me, at what stage did these documents come into your possession?

MR DEMPSEY: This was subsequent to the arrest of Mabotha and it was then handed to me by the security branch.

MR PIGOU: So, it would be fair to say that during the course of your own investigation into the death of Stompie Sepei, you had access to this documentation?

MR DEMPSEY: That is the case.

MR PIGOU: Did you at any time anticipate using Temba Mabotha as a witness in the murder investigation of Stompie Sepei?

MR DEMPSEY: That is the case, also the Advocate for the Prosecution, Advocate van Vuuren - I had a consultation with him and he - in consultation with me, decided that we would not use this witness.

MR PIGOU: Can you perhaps explain for us or shed some light onto why he would not be used as a witness?

MR DEMPSEY: I could not explain to you why the advocate decided not to use him as a witness.

MR PIGOU: Senior Superintendent Dempsey, didn't this frustrate your investigation?  Here you have a statement taken by the security branch which directly implicates Mrs Mandela in either the murder or the cover-up at least, around the murder of Stompie Sepei, could you tell me whether you pressed Advocate van Vuuren for answers?

MR DEMPSEY: Advocate van Vuuren is a person who simply decides who he will use in a prosecution and it was not amongst my rights to ask him questions as to why he did this or that, I could not be prescriptive in that setting.

MR PIGOU: But this was a material witness who had allegedly gone to the scene where Sepei had been killed, had had the scene pointed out to him by Jerry Richardson and had given you a statement in which he said that this was reported back to Mrs Mandela, he had given a statement in which he said that he had gone to Botswana to make a phone call to say that Stompie Sepei had been seen at Dukwe Camp and yet you didn't seem to think that this was important to follow up or to push Advocate van Vuuren for a more correct answer.

MR DEMPSEY: Had it not been for my investigation or for my request that this investigation be done we would not have found this witness, it was on my request that we track down this witness. You must remember at that time he was implicated as a possible co-accused and he was also a person who might have instructed other persons to assault the persons involved.  Because of the police investigation, this person was tracked down and that testimoney was given to the prosecutor and Advocate van Vuuren decided not to use this person.

MR PIGOU: Could I put it to you this way, were you disappointed when Advocate van Vuuren made that decision?

MR DEMPSEY: Sir, I cannot tell you whether I was disappointed or not - there were many frustrations in this case, his decision however was final and I did not go against this decision.

MR PIGOU: Did you raise this decision with Major General Jaap Joubert, the overall head of the investigation unit?

MR DEMPSEY: I was the investigating officer in this case and as you would certainly know yourself, we simply investigate a case, we make the facts available to the prosecutor and the Attorney General and they make a final decision, we cannot make this decision, it is their decision.

MR PIGOU: No, I understand that Senior Superintendent Dempsey but a witness of this importance, an Askari who had been inside the house of Mrs Mandela for some time, providing you with invaluable information - some of the notes that you've provided us include hand-written notes about instructions to make phone calls to newspapers saying that Stompie Sepei was seen alive in Botswana, you've attached copies of those newspaper articles for us.
 It seems to me that in my position certainly, if I had been in your shoes I think I would have taken it to my commanding officer or at least to as higher authority as possible.  Just one more response on this, did you not even consider taking it to a more senior authority within the police service?

MR DEMPSEY: Again, - and I will repeat myself, the final decision is not a police decision, the final decision is an Attorney General decision.

MR PIGOU: I won't pursue that line.  Senior Superintendent Dempsey, did you make any enquiries as to what happened to Temba Mabotha after he had made these statements to the security branch?

MR DEMPSEY: No, after we spoke with him and after it had been decided that he would not be used as a witness, I saw no further need to make any follow-up investigations with regard to him.

MR PIGOU: Do you have any knowledge about - in Captain Jan Potgieter's amnesty application he talks about requesting that you don't use this witness and it would appear that Advocate van Vuuren is also adhering to the wish of the security branch in this respect, that he was planning to use this witness in a case against Mrs Mandela for high treason, do you have any knowledge of what that case was about?

MR DEMPSEY: I bear no knowledge of this.  Again, I do not believe that a Captain in the South African Police can be prescriptive with regard to the Attorney General in the use of witnesses.

MR PIGOU: Did you make any further attempts to locate - on the basis of the information provided to you by the security branch to locate this person Sledge, did you make any attempts through the security branch information to identify who Sledge was?

MR DEMPSEY: We made various efforts, we also constituted a field task to hunt down these people even though we did not know what they looked like, we only had these nicknames such as Sledge, Shoes, Dark Sunday and so forth.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.
 Just some questions now to Superintendent Moodley.  Your name has been banded around during the course of today quite a lot and I think it's only fair to ask a couple of questions to get a response from you.   Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you ever visit the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela either privately or in your official capacity, during the period 1986 to 1989?

MR MOODLEY: ...{inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not properly placed.

MR MOODLEY: No, I haven't visited the house ...[inaudible]

MR PIGOU: Would you like to make a general response to the allegations which have been put forward by Mr Jerry Richardson.

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, may I just put on record at this stage - it's Cilliers speaking, we were not present whilst these allegations were made as myself and my client only turned up just before 3 o'clock and at that stage - me at least and I think my client as well, were in the awkward position that we couldn't get these instruments where translations are being done, so I think to ask for a general sort of submission on that is not really take the hearing any further.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, what I would suggest is that if there are any specifics that you think are important, please put them to the witness because I think the case is reasonably made.

MR PIGOU: I think the first question to Senior Superintendent Moodley is a bit of a ...[indistinct] one if he says that he hasn't been there, then there's no point in pursuing any other questions down that line.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, proceed.

MR PIGOU: Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you give Jerry Richardson R10.000-00 in Leeuwkop Prison in 1995?

MR MOODLEY: I didn't personally hand over the money but I was there when the money was handed over to him by then Colonel Hesslinga.

MR PIGOU: So, he was actually given R10.000-00 in cash?

MR MOODLEY: That's correct.