Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: If I shoot, pointing in a direction where you have gone into, I can not be certain that you are hit or not.

MS THABETE: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

MR LAX: But I asked you earlier why you didn't shoot at them.  He is saying if you point a gun at a person, you don't know if the shots are going to hit him or not, that was his answer now.
	Is that right?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Sorry?

MR LAX: Did I hear you correctly that if you point a gun at a person, or you aim a gun at a person, you don't have to be sure whether the shots are going to hit or not.  Was that what you said, I couldn't hear properly?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, I think that is what I said.

MR LAX: Yes.  The question is you did actually shoot at the people, you just don't know whether you hit them or not?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: That is correct.

MR LAX: That is different to shooting in the air as you said earlier in your evidence, isn't it?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.

MR LAX: It is also different to when I asked you why you didn't shoot at them.  Why didn't you say yes, but I did actually shoot at them?  Why only now when it is pointed out to them, that you said in your application form that you shot and hacked at them, and you killed them by shooting, only then do you now say yes, well actually I did shoot at them?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: As I mentioned before, I have been in prison for a long time, and my mind has been disturbed, so I may not remember everything.

MR LAX: Well you see, when I asked you why you didn't shoot at them, why didn't you say to me but I did actually shoot at them?
	Instead, you gave me an elaborate explanation of why you hadn't shot at them which is different from not forgetting, do you understand?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I think I made a mistake in that regard.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Zulu.  Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman, the applicant calls Linda Heman Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he is Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He is seated in the audience Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Linda Luthuli.  I think if he can sit where the applicant is and Mr Zulu if you can go and sit next to your attorney while he is giving evidence.

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Luthuli, it is common cause that you were the, Mr Zulu, the applicant's co-accused in the High Court when you were convicted of murdering four people and attempting to murder another two, correct?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: That is correct.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And as a result of that incident, you were convicted and you received a term of imprisonment of 14 years?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: That is correct.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I would like you to tell the Committee that during or about, or I will be more specific, up until July 1992, where were you residing?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I resided at Madada.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Were you up until that time, July 1992, were you always residing in Madada?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: No.  I used to visit.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Did you belong to any political party during the time that you resided in Madada?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: What is the name of the political party?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I was an IFP follower.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Did you take any active part in the day to day affairs of the Inkatha party?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: During 1992, can you tell the Committee please what active role did you play in the affairs of the IFP?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I was an IFP supporter.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You told the Committee that you used to reside in an area called Madada, was Madada further broken down into specific areas or in any particular area that you used to reside in?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, it was divided.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: What is the name of the area that you particularly resided in?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: At Bolushe, (indistinct)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And the people of Bolushe, were they predominantly, I wouldn't say predominantly, which members of any particular party resided specifically in Buloshe?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Most of them were IFP members.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Is it not correct that the area known as Madada was divided by a road and on one side of the road was a place called Buloshe and on the other side of the road was a place called Ngonweni?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The place called Ngonweni, was that place particularly or predominantly occupied by members of any particular political party?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Which political party was that?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: It was the ANC.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Specifically during July/August 1992, can you tell the Committee what was the state of the political violence like in that area, with specific reference to the relationship to the IFP and the ANC?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: There was a lot of violence.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Did a certain set of circumstances, or were there certain activities by members of the ANC which caused you and the applicant of this matter, together with other co-perpetrators to attack the members of the ANC on the 3rd of February 1993?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, there is something.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, it should be the 2nd of February 1993.
	Can you please tell the Committee what is it that happened that caused you to attack this people?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: In July we were attacked by the ANC and they killed my father, as well as Mr Sithole and a certain boy from the Zulu family.
	After that, we moved away from that area, and I buried my father at another area.  After I buried my father, I went to the kwaMashu hostel in Durban.
	In 1993 Zakhele, the IFP Youth Organiser, came to the kwamashu hostel and he was with Zita and Ndumiso.  They told me that we would be travelling to Madada to Ngonweni specifically and they told me that they had been with Buxusa who was an IFP leader as well as an induna.
	Zakhele told me that we were going to go to Ngonweni to attack the people there.   We went there indeed, and we killed them when we arrived.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The people that you killed in Ngonweni, did you know any of those people?  The people that you killed?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, there are that I knew.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: How is it that you knew them, or how is it that you identified them as being persons that you wanted to kill?

MR LAX: Hang on a second, he didn't say that he wanted to kill them, he said he knew them.  How did he know them?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon, I will rephrase that.  Mr Luthuli, how is it that you knew these people?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I did not know all of them.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Let us refer to them by the, as the people that died.  Did you perhaps know any of the deceased?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Which of the deceased did you know?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: The owner of the household, Mr Mthetwa.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Aside from Mr Mthetwa, did you know any of the others that were deceased?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: He is the only one that I knew.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Did you know any of the others that were injured in this attack?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: No.

MR LAX: How did you know Mthetwa?