Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: They called me Johannes.

MR LOWIES: And the group of people doing the patrols, were they referred to as the comrades?  Do you want to answer this question?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: They called me Johannes.

MR LOWIES: Ntati, the question is, were you referred to as the comrades? - and the you I'm referring to are the people who used to do the patrols, yes or no?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: The people who were patrolling with me called Johannes.  This name comrade is a name that we use everywhere, even in Parliament they use that name comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I heard you say Ntati, please feel free to cross-examine the witness in Sotho ...(indistinct).

MR LOWIES: Chair, ...(Sesotho)  Yes, I can speak Sesotho, but I prefer my language and this is a manner of addressing a person of whose language you can speak, Mr Sibanyoni will know it's either Rah(?) or Ntati, which is a sign of respect.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just ask a question.  Apart from calling you Johannes, did the people who were patrolling with you also call you comrade?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: No.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, I did not get the answer because my headset wasn't on.  May it be repeated?

INTERPRETER: He said "no".

MR LOWIES: The answer was "yes"?

CHAIRPERSON: The answer was "no".

MR LOWIES: Sorry, Chairman, I apologise.
	I want to put it to you that you are trying to hide something, Sir.  You well knew what the comrades were in 1992, everybody knew and you were actually a member of the comrades.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That is what you are saying.  Because in 1992, I was a leader in my netball team, I was also the Deputy-Chairman of the Boipatong Football Association.  I was also involved in the PTSA in our local school.  I was a Deputy-Secretary of Boipatong Resident's Association.  I was involved in Boipatong Football Association as a President.  I was also the owner of the team known as Arizona in Boipatong.  I didn't have time for other meetings, political meetings.

MR LOWIES: Is that your answer?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Yes, that's my answer.

MR LOWIES: I also listened to your evidence in Sesotho and initially when you gave evidence you didn't use the word "Koyoco", you used the word "Hippo", not so? - in-chief.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I started mentioning Koyoco.

MR LOWIES: Do you know the difference between a Koyoco and the Hippo, or is it one and the same thing?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I don't know the difference, I only know Koyoco.  I don't know whether they are the same thing.  The only thing that I know is a Koyoco.

MR LOWIES: Do you understand Afrikaans?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Yes, I do.

MR LOWIES: Now what was the attitude of the people patrolling the township with you at that stage in 1992, did they trust the police?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: We trusted the police because when they said to us we should go and sleep, we went away and we went to sleep.

MR LOWIES: So you're saying that because they said so, you thought that it was now safe to go and sleep?  Is that what you're trying to convey?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That's correct.

MR LOWIES: Now why did you then run away from the police?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I did not run.  From the first house at the corner there is a passage there, I went through that passage, I was near that passage.

MR LOWIES: So you did not run away?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I did not run.

MR LOWIES: You did not go and hide yourself either?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: We only went to hide ourselves when the Hippo came, but that night I did not go and hide, I just went to my place to sleep.

MR SIBANYONI: Just a correction, he said when the police came, he didn't use the word "Hippo", Mr Interpreter.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I said Koyoco.

MR LOWIES: Now Sir, the point is this, that night when the police came, did you go and hide yourself?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: They came to us once, they did not come for the second time on that night of the 17th.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: The question is, when you saw the police, did you hide yourself?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: They were screaming from Thaba Baseu, then I went through the passage.

MR LOWIES: Do you understand the question?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR LOWIES: Thank you.  I still haven't got an answer.  Did you go and hide yourself? - when you saw the police on the night of the 17th.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I said that night of the 17th, the police only came once.  When they told us to go and sleep we went away to go and sleep, there is no-one who went to hide anywhere.

MR LOWIES: Did you run away that night of the 17th when you saw the police? - run away.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I did not run away, I was just walking.

MR LOWIES: Did any of your colleagues run away?  When I say colleagues I mean the people patrolling with you.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Well we do not stay at the same place, maybe they tried to hide or to run away, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: The reason why I'm asking is, in your evidence-in-chief you told us that you did two things, you ran away and you also hid yourself on the night of the 17th, now you deny it.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I said we were running away and hiding ourselves when we saw a Hippo.  That was our life.  I was not specifically mentioning on that night.

MR LOWIES: My attention is drawn to the fact, I didn't listen myself, that you referred to the word "Hippo".  You made use of the word "Hippo", is it true?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I talked about a Koyoco, you started mentioning a Hippo.

MR LOWIES: You used the word now, Sir, you out of your own mouth.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: You started mentioning a Hippo.  When I started talking here I talked about a Koyoco.  I don't know a Hippo, I only know a Koyoco.

MR LOWIES: So why do you use the word "Hippo", you out of your own mouth, without reference to Hippo in cross-examination at that stage?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I don't remember saying a Hippo, I said  a Koyoco.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Mr Lowies.
	Do you often use Koyoco and Hippo interchangeably, in other words, do you make any difference between a Hippo and a Koyoco?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That is why I didn't want to mention a Hippo and a Koyoco.  I only know a Koyoco because I don't know the difference between the two.  The only thing that I know it a Koyoco.

MR SIBANYONI: But do you also know that there is a vehicle called a Hippo?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Yes, I do.

MR SIBANYONI: And you know it differs from a Koyoco?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Well I don't know.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, is it your evidence that you think that a Hippo and a Koyoco is the same or not, in your mind?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I am talking about a Koyoco, not a Hippo.  I don't know a Hippo, I only know a Koyoco.  If you say to me they are one and the same thing, then I'll accept that.

MR LOWIES: Now Sir, I want to suggest the following to you;  your version that you were accosted by police, that you bumped into the police on the night of the incident is not correct.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: If you say so maybe you were present, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: No, I'm putting it to you that when you say that, you're telling a lie here with a purpose.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I cannot comment apart from what I've already said.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, do you still stand by what you have said?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LOWIES: Can you remember what clothes you wore that night?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I don't remember.

MR LOWIES: How can you remember the time that was announced on the radio before you went to sleep, is there a specific reason why you can remember that time, that on your version was announced before you went to sleep?