Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes but you've got to explain me would they be so powerless that they can't get out of bed in the morning or will the people not hear them or understand them or will the people not follow them?  How would they become powerless?

MR MASHAMBA: Having killed the witches I think that is why the people in power in those times are no longer ruling the country because they were unable to rule.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Because you killed the witches?  That's they become incapable of ruling, because you kill the witches.

MR MASHAMBA: I think where they used to get their power and medicine we eradicated those places.

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, you're still not answering my question and I have to insist on that.  How did they fail in having power because you killed a few witches?

MR MASHAMBA: All the witches who were known I think they were all killed because up to now since I was arrested those cases of witches are no longer heard about.

MR VAN RENSBURG: No that's fine but that's still not an answer to the question.  Can you answer this question?

MR MASHAMBA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is if you've now succeeded in killing a few witches or even all the witches, how did that cause the people in power to lose their power, to become powerless?

MR MASHAMBA: By killing the witches we were limiting the power of the rulers who were ruling during that period so that they will no longer have power so that they will get out of the government and then the government be re-incorporated.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, I will not labour that point any further, I will continue.

ADV DE JAGER: But perhaps then I could put an example?  The government is like a torch.  If you take out the battery it wouldn't shine and now the witches, they were the batteries of the government?

MR MASHAMBA: Witches and ritual murderers were batteries of the government because those people who were ruling, they used to get this thing of ritual murder because of these witches and witchdoctors.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, what did the deceased do that he had to be killed, what was he?

MR MASHAMBA: The deceased it was alleged that he made a certain boy who was a soccer player to get missing or to disappear.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but was he a witch, a ritual murderer of a politician or what?

MR MASHAMBA: He was a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

MR MASHAMBA: That is known by the person who pointed him, who mentioned his name in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what is this about a soccer player?

MR MASHAMBA: It's that he mysteriously, the soccer player mysteriously disappeared after being called by him.

CHAIRPERSON: And so?

MR MASHAMBA: And until now we don't know his whereabouts since his disappearance.

CHAIRPERSON: Had his disappearance anything to do with the playing of soccer?

MR MASHAMBA: He was a soccer player and he was called by that old man and then he disappeared and he was no longer seen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: There's just one thing which I want to get from you.  If the witches were responsible for giving power to the people in government what concerns me is the fact that on this day it was a day when President Mandela was being released.  Wasn't that an indication that the power of the witches was waning, why was it necessary to kill them because at that time there was an indication that the ANC was unbanned and the leader of the ANC had just been released so why was it necessary to do something to make the country ungovernable and to remove the witches, especially on that day?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because we were fighting against the government who was ruling us here in Venda so that it must be reincorporated back in South Africa.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Madame.
	Did you know the soccer player that allegedly went missing because of the action of Mr France Khomogwe?

MR MASHAMBA: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you know the soccer player that went missing?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes because since then I have not yet seen him again.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What was his name?

MR MASHAMBA: We used to call him by a nickname, soccer nickname, called Pula.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now when you met Mr France Khomogwe in his house did you ask him where this Pula is?

MR MASHAMBA: No, he was no longer asked about that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why didn't you ask him?

MR MASHAMBA: We didn't ask because we had already decided that those people must be killed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Didn't you think that perhaps his family would have liked to have known his whereabouts before you killed this man who is linked with them?

MR MASHAMBA: The parents of the missing person were losing hope because it was long that the person had disappeared.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Exactly then it was the last chance that you can find out what happened to him by asking the man that you're going to kill?  Must I repeat the question?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes please.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You see you testified that the parents of the soccer player was now desperate because they're losing hope because the man was missing for a long time and the only link between the missing person as far as you're concerned is Mr France Khomogwe which you are about to kill so if you kill him his family will have absolute no means to ever find out what happened to him?  Now in those circumstances, I ask you, why didn't you ask him before you kill him?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because we realised that it's long this thing had happened and the parents of the person have already lost hope and they were no longer interested in that matter.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us, when did Pula disappear?  You say it was a long time?

MR MASHAMBA: I think it was in 1989.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was his disappearance reported to the police?

MR MASHAMBA: I think so but I'm not sure.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you know Mr France Khomogwe before that specific date?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes he was known to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know he was a witch?

MR MASHAMBA: No I used to hear the hearsays about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Before the disappearance of the soccer player or only after?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes what?

MR MASHAMBA: I'm saying yes that I used to hear about him practising witchcraft before the disappearance of this soccer player.

CHAIRPERSON: So even the disappearance of the soccer player was hearsay?

MR MASHAMBA: No it was true that he disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you believe the people who told you that the deceased was practising witchcraft?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I believed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you find any medicine in Mr France Khomogwe's house?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes, medicines were there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What medicine?

MR MASHAMBA: It was a medicine in bottles.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I want you to give me a description of the medicine in the bottles.

MR MASHAMBA: Those medicines were sitting in different bottles differently as they are.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You see, why I give you an opportunity to describe this is to give you an opportunity to tell this hearing that it was in fact traditional medicine and you failed to do that.  Should we therefore deduct that it was medicine like cough syrup and things like that?

MR MASHAMBA: Those medicines were the traditional medicines not like cough remedy medicine.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I put it to you that you killed an innocent old man who was never in his life involved in witchcraft?

MR MASHAMBA: I don't agree with that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Except for beating Mr Khomogwe with sticks, was he assaulted by the group in any other way?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes he was also assaulted by a group immediately when he got outside the house the group that were there began to attack him.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How?

MR MASHAMBA: In beating, when I get inside the house immediately when he went outside the house I failed to see what was happening because the group of people or a mob was on top of him attacking him.