Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

JABULANI KHUMALO: No, he would not know because he would just report and hand over and then the hand over Comrade Msiki would take it to his senior and Msiki as well, he would take the report to his senior, it goes broad and broad, the finality of it he will not know where it ends up.  Sorry, I want to go further to say we were operating - the guerilla warfare, it should be understood although APLA presented the submission into commission but it seems the claims that they know of how these things are conducted as a presentation by APLA, but question that comes from here shows that they're still seeking information and seeking information cannot rely to that information you seems not to know that information.  We were conducting the guerilla warfare which does not at the time have any record keeping, were not keeping any minutes or records, have accountant of this has been submitted, how was it distributed to the last cent and call auditors in the struggle.  We take it at that time that guerilla warfare, if commanders supported this and make a report, a submission, it goes back, he will follow - it will be followed up by the instruction if there was an instruction.  There will be a way, not by planning or passport to infiltrate the country but the commander that rule that commander like in the case of Tapin, Maseko will send a message, not through the fax or through telegram or through phone, he will send because we were working underground.  Somebody will infiltrate and pass on information to the commander to carry out such instruction.  So these questions of logistics of pure accountability in guerilla warfare was not applicable.  I just wanted that everybody knows that.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you comrade ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry for the interruption.  Mr Khumalo, did you say that - you heard the evidence of the applicant when he said after every operation he reported by telephone?

JABULANI KHUMALO: He can report by telephone, it's one option.

MR MALAN: Yes but didn't you now say that that was not used?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No I'm saying we will use optionally that are there but we are not forced that we do it on that.  In this case if we reported by telephone which means you went into the pay phones you would have done that but I'm saying that in general that, because this is a general question of accountability, that we were working under a guerilla - a very serious painful way of communication.  Our communication was not easy as supposed to be like now we have cellulars and things like that.  We were - the report goes, optionally that counts like phones, telephones you are talking about, tickie box telephones, cannot come and use my phone because it could be traced.

MR MALAN: May I just, while I've interrupted you, refer you to page 8 of the bundle of the application, if Mr Mbandazayo can just show you that?  Where the applicant states that there are more operations than he has stated in his application and that the APLA records and documents will shed more light, what records and documents is he referring to if you say that no records whatsoever were kept.

JABULANI KHUMALO: No record in the country that were kept but outside there was a structure, there was a head office of APLA in Tanzania so ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: And in Botswana?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I'm trying to differentiate the two.

MR MALAN: And in Botswana?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Botswana as well.  Remember that Botswana was an independent country from South Africa.

MR MALAN: So there would have been records, is that what you're saying?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I'm saying that in Botswana yes there could be some records but not in the country.

MR MALAN: Ja but Msiki and Junior they might have kept records?

JABULANI KHUMALO: They might have reported this to their seniors as I said.  The headquarters was not Botswana, the headquarters of the PAC was in Dar es Salaam and the records could not be kept in each and every offices for security reasons, so headquarters of the PAC or of APLA was the one that if there was any record that were record was to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko ...[intervention]

JABULANI KHUMALO: Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Mr Khumalo, you were a member of the NEC from which year?

JABULANI KHUMALO: From 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: From 1996?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1990 what position did you hold within the PAC or within APLA?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No, I was a regional commander, I was the - I'm sorry, I was the East Rand Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have been aware of any guidelines if there were any that would have been set down by APLA's high command on how the proceeds derived from the various activities of the reparation unit were to be deployed or utilised.  Would you have had knowledge thereof?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you would have knowledge thereof are you able to just indicate or share with the Committee on some of these guidelines that were set down which really are speaking to the operation of the repossession unit?

JABULANI KHUMALO: What I know then was that the political organ of the PAC and the military organ of the PAC work on different lines.  I know that they were operating under the 15 points of code of conduct of APLA, that is now the military wing with the addition that whatever they do it must be in line with the political ideology of the PAC so there was a differentiation of the two, politically and militarily.  APLA, as I happened not to be in APLA, I was in the PAC, but I know that whatever APLA would do would do it in line with the political objectives of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm actually speaking specifically with regard to the operations of the repossession unit.  Are you aware of any guidelines that were applicable with regard to how proceeds derived from the activities of the repossession unit were to be deployed?  Are you aware of that?  It's yes or no?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what were these guidelines?

JABULANI KHUMALO: The guidelines was that if they go for the repossession whatever they collect there should be surrendered.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom?

JABULANI KHUMALO: The unit itself surrendered it to the commander.  The commander surrendered it to his senior.  I think I said it before that there is - sectionally there is regionally there is - there was a PVW, what do you call it, PWV sometimes which is Gauteng now.  Commanding went up to National Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Well in this case we've already heard evidence from Mr Maseko that for his part he had to report to Msiki in Botswana?

JABULANI KHUMALO: But do you understand what I'm trying to say?  I'm saying that the operation works on guideline and guideline gave the commander a full authority that he can use a discretion.  I'm saying that other field commanders would give to his commander who is a field commander.  A commander gave to a sectional commander, it goes like that.  In this case Comrade Maseko put it clear that he reported direct to Comrade Msiki.  It means the level of commanding are not the same so he was part of the high commanders, he was not just a field commander.  It was that reason that he could not report maybe to the section commander because he was higher than the section commander.  I may take it like that, that the fact that the instruction is that he report direct to Msiki.  It means he is more senior than the commanders here, that were here.

MR MALAN: Mr Khumalo did you have knowledge of this at the time or are you giving us your evaluation of the evidence of the applicant?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Well I take it from the evaluation of the evidence.

MR MALAN: You have no first hand knowledge - did you know Mr Maseko in 1990 and in 1991?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes I did.

MR MALAN: Did you know that he was a commander of a repossession unit at that time?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes I did.