Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (sworn states)

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Rensburg you have before you your amnesty application as it appears on page 1 of volume 1, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, yes.

MR BOOYENS: On page 1 is there anything else you want to add?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Nothing.

MR BOOYENS: Page 2?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: On page 3 you refer to this matter for which you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Rensburg you have heard Mr du Plessis' evidence?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then as far as he had referred to your involvement do you differ from him in any respect?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: So you confirm his evidence and incorporate that in your evidence?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Were you with the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth when this incident took place, you were second in charge?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I was.

MR BOOYENS: And General Erasmus was the commanding officer?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr du Plessis was also one of the more senior officers there.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: He said he was third in charge, but was Colonel Harold Snyman not there also?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He was fourth person in charge.

MR BOOYENS: Were you aware of the fact that Mr Kondile was detained?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I was.

MR BOOYENS: Were you involved in his interrogation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: Were Mr Kondile's activities within the desk for which you were responsible?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes to a lesser degree.  You know the struggle during that time had various branches.  It was not only the ANC per se it was also the trade unions and other organisations.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage you were tasked with trade unions amongst others?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You heard Mr du Plessis' evidence and let me ask you first of all.  You have heard Mr du Plessis' evidence that at a certain stage he believed that he had turned Mr Kondile to become a police informer.  Can you remember whether you've heard about that, even informally?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can remember that he told me about it.

MR BOOYENS: Right.  He also says, at a later stage after he had found a note from which he drew the inference that Mr Kondile was not really going to work with you that he discussed the matter with you.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: There was a good relationship between members of the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth and especially a good relationship between you and Mr du Plessis.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was Mr du Plessis' attitude or how did he feel about the fact that now that the man he thought he had recruited he did not succeed in doing that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He was very disappointed with it and he told me that he was disappointed in the whole situation.  He was sure that his plans were going to succeed and now he was disappointed.

MR BOOYENS: Let me put it in this way, did he mention to you that in this process of recruiting Mr Kondile, or not in a process of recruiting but after he was supposedly recruited certain information was made available to Mr Kondile regarding how he had to convey his information to a principal agent in Lesotho etc?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes at that stage when he discussed this with me he said that things went wrong, did not work out.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, it did not work out.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, yes.

MR BOOYENS: According to you Mr van Rensburg how important was the Lesotho network?  I am referring to the Intelligence network in Lesotho.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think without such a network the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth would have been like a puppet without any life in it.  It was of cardinal importance that there should be such an Intelligence network.

MR BOOYENS: From where were the activities of the liberation movement managed from the Eastern Cape, where was their foreign machinery?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: In Lesotho.

MR BOOYENS: And Mr Chris Hani was he a prominent figure during that time?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was he also there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was he involved in the Eastern Cape operation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And according to what was told to you Mr Kondile was a person who was near Chris Hani?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that was conveyed to me.

MR BOOYENS: So the fact that the principal agent, the identity of the principal agent was disclosed to Kondile, he knew who this person was, and you yourself, what do you think, what was the situation according to you regarding the Security Intelligence network?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I saw it like this.  If the agent was disclosed to the ANC certainly 90% of our capabilities to get information from Lesotho regarding the ANC would not succeed.

MR BOOYENS: One of the most important aspects was that you have contact with the United Nations Refugee organisation.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And was it also one of the components which would suffer?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr du Plessis discussed this matter with you as a colleague, a senior colleague?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: After he had told you what had happened, what the dilemma was you, both of you went to Colonel Erasmus who was the commanding officer.  Was this matter then discussed at great length there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And was it also sketched to Erasmus what the problem was?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You've heard the evidence that various alternatives were considered?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And from the discussion what was the conclusion you drew?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: We came to the conclusion to save the position so that we would still have the capability to perform our task.  There was no other option but to eliminate this person.

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Rensburg why, what was the task of the Security Police specifically in 1981, what was the primary task?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Shortly, our task was the gathering of intelligence and to prevent that the Communist onslaught against the previous government would be successful.

MR BOOYENS: And you've already told us that you would be a puppet without an Intelligence network?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You also said that you've decided that this person had to be eliminated.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: There was no legislation who authorised you to do this, it would have been unlawful to eliminate him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What did you - why did you consider this alternative?  Why did you decide to do this?  What was the unwritten policy regarding the elimination of the enemy?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman during my career in the police service and in the Security Police per se I became aware of the continuous resistance initiated through South Africa against the Communist onslaught to prevent this onslaught.