Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

SISI KHAMPEPE: But how would you be able to measure the success or the failure of your sub-Unit if such information was not furnished to you?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: We depended largely on the media reports, the print and television reports.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why not your sub-Units, these are people who are very close to you?  Why should you depend on the media that you didn't trust?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am saying that it was very difficult for us to get exact information, given the circumstances under which we operated.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In conclusion for what it is worth, you are saying you are seeking amnesty in respect of the attack on the Councillors and the weapons that you supplied on your sub-Unit in the attack of those Councillors.  Is that what you are seeking amnesty for?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: But it goes further than that, if you have regard to the bundle, page 7, you are saying there have been injury of several Policemen and Councillors, but from what my sister has been asking you, it would appear you have no information as regards whether Policemen were killed, Councillors were killed or injury caused to them?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: This I got from the newspaper and media reports.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Sir, can you explain to the Committee exactly how did you see your political motive, or how did you understand the political motive or can you describe your political motive for attacking the Wimpy Bar?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I would, this matter I think has been dealt with extensively by my Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: We want to know how you saw it.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Oh yes.  That was part of taking the war to the white areas.  It was part of celebrating the 67th anniversary  of the South African Communist Party, and that was actually intended to remove the honeymoon out of the television screens.
	Removing the honeymoon out of television screens actually meant in everyday life of our television, we would see people sitting in beaches, people sitting in nice places, not portraying the exact situation which was happening in the townships, which was happening in churches, which was happening in schools.
	People were being shot at by the Police, people were being killed by the Police on a daily basis in the township.  That was not properly projected into the media.

CHAIRPERSON: So, the Wimpy Bar was specifically targeted for that purpose?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It was also part of the armed propaganda.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are you sure about that answer?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, it was part of the armed propaganda.

CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you are concerned, and you must correct me if I am wrong, the attack on the Wimpy Bar, was not essentially because it was frequented by members of the Security Police?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, that is wrong.  Sorry, can the Judge repeat that for me please?

CHAIRPERSON: You told me that, and I understand your evidence to be that the attack on the Wimpy Bar here in Benoni was to remove the honeymoon off the television screens?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also told me that Wimpy in Benoni was specifically targeted for that and also that it was part of taking the war to the white areas?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Given that, I asked you are you sure of your answers, and you said yes.  I said well, I am concerned because there is the prospect of Wimpy being targeted and blasted because it was frequented by members of the Security Police and then you said, no, that is wrong?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It shouldn't have been like that, it was attacked because it was frequented by the top brass of the Police.  These other things were just part of it, taking the war to the white areas, and accelerating the armed conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you then understand my question to be when you answered?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I thought you were saying that Wimpy was attacked because it was frequented by the Police?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you understood correctly.  You said it was not so.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Then I did not understand it in that sense.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand it then, because you repeat my question in essence and you understood it correctly.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: What I am saying is that Wimpy Bar was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you are saying that, we all know it was attacked.  The question is why?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Because it was frequented by the top brass of the Police personnel.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, when I asked you that just now, you said no, that is not so.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It must have been a mistake on my part, but I did not mean to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you make the mistake?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Maybe I did not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you did understand it, because you still understand the question  correctly.
	It is precisely what I asked you.  I am asking why you made a mistake then?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Because I did not understand the question clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Steenkamp.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Sir, am I correct in saying that the attack on the Wimpy Bar was mainly to create and to instill fear amongst the people, among the civilians in that specific area?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That would be incorrect.

ADV STEENKAMP: Are you sure?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you understand my question correctly?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can I read from your own application on page 8?  Mr Koopedi, can he please read for himself.  I read paragraph 1 therein.  All the actions above constitute part of the overall conspiracy and strategy to bring about instability and instill fear in those who served in structures of Apartheid.  Is that now right or is that now wrong?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That is right.

ADV STEENKAMP: But my question was was the attack on the Wimpy not part of this?

MR KOOPEDI: With respect Mr Chairman, I think we are having a problem of my learned friend putting it that the attack on Wimpy was for this reason and I think what he is saying is that it was not only for that one reason.  You know there are a number of issues involved, not the one reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you rephrase the question.

ADV STEENKAMP: I will do so, thank you Mr Chairman.  My question was simply, I didn't say it was the only reason, I asked you was it a reason and you said no.  That is how I understood you.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: You see, it was not intended to instill fear on civilians.  For those who served in Apartheid structures, the Special Branch in Benoni was part of the Apartheid structure.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can I just ask you then this, why didn't you include in your amnesty application that your attack on the Wimpy was mainly to deal with the Security Branch who was frequenting this place, why didn't you include this at all in your amnesty application, at all?
	Even in the further particulars that you were asked, you didn't include this at all?  Can you explain this?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: You see, it was the personnel that served in the Apartheid structure which frequented Wimpy, and I think that explanation suffices.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is why isn't it included in your application?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It is included in the application.  If you go through and if you can go through page 8 there.