Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, give us your full names please.

SCHALK JAN VISSER: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Visser, your application is in the bundle from page 21 to 23, it is the formal application.  The aspect about which it is here, the incident, is from page 24 to 25 and then the political motivation is from page 26 to 33, is that correct?

MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You fully gave all your details in your application with regard to your background in the police, can you just please tell the Committee, during 1980, where were you stationed?

MR VISSER: I was in 1980 a Divisional Head Commander at Soweto, working for the Security Forces.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the Security Branch?

MR VISSER: At the Security Branch.

MS VAN DER WALT: And your rank?

MR VISSER: I was a Colonel in the SA Police.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during that year, 1980, what was the security position in the country?

MR VISSER: It was explosive with regular infiltration from trained ANC and MK members, with attempts of sabotage and attacks on members of the public.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in paragraph 1 on page 24, that during 1980 when you were stationed at Soweto, during the run of that year an MK member had been arrested by the name of Scorpion.  You say in your application that he was arrested in Soweto, would you like to comment on that?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I would like please a change, he was interrogated at Soweto, but as far as my memory serves me I think he was after infiltration from Angola, handed over to me in the Western Transvaal because he was a subject of Soweto.

MS VAN DER WALT: So he was brought to you in Soweto because he came from Soweto originally?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember what happened after he arrested?

MR VISSER: He was interrogated and he gave us very valuable information as well as declaring that he was willing to work with us.

MS VAN DER WALT: With that arrest, was that in terms of the old Section 6?

MR VISSER: Yes, the previous Act, Section 6.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his background, can you remember?  Was he a trained MK member?

MR VISSER: Yes, he was an MK trained member trained in Angola.  He had been in Angola shortly before he came to South Africa.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he then declare his intention to work for the Security Police?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you handle him, can you just explain?  You heard the questions raised to the other applicants, can you give us clarity in connection with handlers and so forth.

MR VISSER: I was the Divisional Commander and he was handled by Martin van Rooyen as agent/informant after he had been released.

MS VAN DER WALT: You say further that he did valuable work and that he also identified various people as terrorists, where did these tasks of his take place?

MR VISSER: It was in the Soweto environment and the Witwatersrand where he identified people.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is it as a result of his information that people were arrested, can you remember?

MR VISSER: No, I cannot factually remember whether people were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: You go forth in the second paragraph to say that in the last half of 1980, Maj van Rooyen came to you, can you determine the specific time, was it that period?

MR VISSER: As I remember it was the last half of 1980 that Maj van Rooyen came to me and after effective monitoring of this agent, had established that he was a double-agent and that he was no longer in favour of us.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened thereafter?

MR VISSER: I, in co-operation with Maj van Rooyen, took the person to a police station at Klerkskraal, where we detained him as a suspect for further investigation.

MS VAN DER WALT: Under which name did you detain him there?

MR VISSER: I can't remember which name, but it was not his real name.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you by any means remember his correct name or did you just handle him as Scorpion?

MR VISSER: That's how I remember him, that's the only name I can recall to identify him by.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is the reason, why did you detain him at Klerkskraal Police Station under a false name?

MR VISSER: He was already being detained and - sorry, had been released under Section 6 of the old Act, after saying that he would work with us and I couldn't detain him under the same Act and I needed and opportunity to investigate further and to write reports.
AN DER WALT:   Do I understand you correctly that you wanted to be certain that he was actually working as a double-agent?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then monitor this information?

MR VISSER: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you discuss it with any of your seniors?

MR VISSER: Yes, I transferred it to Brig Goosen, the then Head of Intelligence and explained to him how urgent this matter was, that the man was very dangerous for us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you please explain to the Committee why you - and it shows from your application later that Brigadier Goosen agreed with you, why did you consider it as dangerous after finding out that the person was a double-agent?

MR VISSER: He moved freely up to that stage and knew various members of the Security Branch and their movements and he had information touching on possible operations which showed that there could have been infiltration and information leaking from across our borders to terrorist groups.

MS VAN DER WALT: But why was it then necessary if you had determined this role of his, that you and Brig Goosen then decided to eliminate this man?  Why was that essential?

MR VISSER: If he were to be released he could have done incalculable damage and could have jeopardised intelligence work.  So it was essential that he be removed as soon as possible to limit that danger.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did Brig Goosen ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Colonel, you are putting it quite broadly, please give us more details.  You say that he could have damaged or harmed in a security sense.

MR VISSER: Well he had information regarding a warning, for instance at a terrorist camp in Angola a day before an operation was going to take place there, which indicated according to me, that there was a leak of information from our ranks.  And then of course he knew me and some of the members and our movements.

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't hear your whole answer, please repeat hit.  You said - how did you find out about the leakage of information to Angola?

MR VISSER: Information which he provided during interrogation to us about certain warnings that they had received in Angola, concerning possible "optredes" by the South African Security Forces.

MR LAX: But how would this man have known of operations to take place in Angola?

MR VISSER: He was trained there.

MR LAX: But how would he have known what would have gone on there?

MR VISSER: Well as he told us during interrogation, Cubans warned the people in the camp to desert the camp, to evacuate the camp a day before the operation.

MR LAX: But I still have a problem.  You say this man is a danger for you in terms of information regarding operations launched against camps in Angola.  Now you caught him here, how could he be a problem for you in connection with that information?

MR VISSER: Well if he went back to them, if he turned back to the ANC and went into their ranks, he could make known to them that that information was given to us and then they could warn people and that could make the situation difficult to remove agents.

MR LAX: But there were thousands agents in the system, may people were involved in the system, in the State system, who gave out information, who would know where that information came from?

MR VISSER: That's exactly the danger if he should go back to them.

MR LAX: But you could not give him anything in terms of operations in Angola etc., you weren't involved in that.

MR VISSER: No, I wasn't.