Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this, prior to the attack on Boipatong, were you aware that there were weapons in Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I did not have knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware, prior to the attack on Boipatong, that certain monies were being collected and that the purpose of collecting those monies was to buy weapons?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I had knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether these weapons were indeed purchased with that money?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I'm certain that they were bought.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was well before the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that help you Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, it does.
	Now Mr Mthembu, what I want to ask you is, and I'm talking about the period before the attack on Boipatong so we get no mistake about that, right, is it your evidence that Vanana Zulu was the person who was in control of the purchasing of weapons for Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: That is not correct Sir.

MR BERGER: Who was the person in control of purchasing weapons for Kwamadala Hostel before the Boipatong attack?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chonco.

MR BERGER: Before the Boipatong attack, who was in control of the weapons at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Vanana Zulu.

MR BERGER: So Mr Vanana Zulu would call meetings, this is before the Boipatong attack, he would call meetings, he would say to the residents: "We need money to buy guns", those residents who were working would contribute, Vanana Zulu would then collect the money and give it to Mr Chonco, Mr Chonco would then go and purchase the guns and bring to the Kwamadala Hostel, is that the way it worked?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And as far as you knew, Mr Chonco purchased those guns or got those guns from Vosloorus Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: That is what you heard but you don't know precisely where the guns came from, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Where is Mr Vanana Zulu today?

MR MTHEMBU: I do not know where he is.

MR BERGER: He is alive is he not?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, he's still alive.

MR BERGER: Who would know where he is today?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not have knowledge of that because I am in custody.

MR BERGER: The last time that you saw Mr Vanana Zulu, where was he?

MR MTHEMBU: I saw him for the last time on the other side down there.

MR BERGER: Where is there on the other side, I don't understand you?

MR MTHEMBU: I'm talking about on the basement, that's where we meet when we arrive here.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that this week?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Oh, he was here at the hearings?

CHAIRPERSON: He saw him outside.

MR MTHEMBU: I saw him outside not inside.

MR BERGER: And when was that that you saw him?

MR MTHEMBU: On Tuesday.

MR BERGER: Can you see if he's in the audience today?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't see him.

MR BERGER: At the time of the Boipatong attack, would it be correct to say that Mr Vanana Zulu was the most senior member of the IFP at Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that he was not permanently resident in the Kwamadala Hostel at that time?

MR MTHEMBU: I knew him to be a fulltime resident of the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, when you are moving on to the point, will you indicate as there's one thing that I just want to clarify in regard to the purchase of the arms.

MR BERGER: Yes, Chairperson.
	What work was Mr Vanana Zulu doing at that time, besides organising attacks?  What was he employed to do?

MR MTHEMBU: He was working for Iscor.

MR BERGER: He was not one of your co-accused, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Do you know whether he is still working for Iscor?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't know whether he is still working there or not.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that from time to time before the Boipatong attack, Vanana Zulu would leave the hostel, go away for a couple of days and then return to the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge about that.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm going to come back now to this affidavit, so perhaps this would be an appropriate point.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
	Prior to the attack on Boipatong, had the police conducted any raids into the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: The police used to come often to conduct raids in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: During those raids, would the police confiscate firearms found in the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Some of these things happened when I was at work and I would get the report back from work and I would be informed as to what they took and what they did not confiscate.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever told?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What?

MR MTHEMBU: I was told that the police raided the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you ever told that they had confiscated firearms?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not know.  The person who was telling me would actually just tell me and he would not give me all the necessary details.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  You did witness did you not, some of the operations when the police would come to the hostel and confiscate firearms?  Well that's what you said in your affidavit, you say so.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, sometimes the police would come at different times.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, but all I want to find out is, you say in paragraph 8 that
"I saw many weapons during the police operations at the hostel.  When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated"
That's what I'm asking about, that's what you say,  that's true, right?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did this occur prior to the Boipatong attack?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So once the police had come there to confiscate the firearms there were no firearms in the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not have knowledge about that, as to whether they confiscated all the firearms or not.

CHAIRPERSON: If you know, if you don't know say so.  The confiscation of the weapons by the police, did it trigger the need to collect money so as to buy more weapons for the residents at the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Following on from that Mr Mthembu, and let me just put you in the picture, this is now before the attack on Boipatong, after the police have confiscated weapons from the hostel and there is now a need to collect money to get more weapons right?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: It's at that point that there is a meeting and Mr Vanana Zulu then called upon the residents, including you, to contribute R800 if you are working so that guns can be purchased, right?

MR MTHEMBU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And you had no choice, you had to pay because otherwise you feared that you could have been killed by one of the members of the Umsinga contingent?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Sir, I also contributed.

MR BERGER: So this group of men form Umsinga, they were brought to the hostel and they were there to make sure that all the hostel residents were kept in check and did as they were told, am I right?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that's correct Sir.

MR BERGER: Now the money that was collected, was that given to Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR MTHEMBU: It was given to Mr Chonco.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Chonco part of this unit from Umsinga?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: You moved to the Kwamadala Hostel in 1990, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: You were also arrested by the police in 1990, were you not?

MR MTHEMBU: In 1990?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't remember.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you were arrested by the police Mr Mthembu?

CHAIRPERSON: In connection with what?

MR BERGER: At all Chairperson.