Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I cannot remember this, it is a very long time ago, but as I said Willie freshened my memory and what I can remember is, why we came down it's because of the murders of the Security Police officers, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And the information about Charles Ndaba at that stage was that he was involved in the murder of policemen?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is how I understood it, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Is this from Willie yesterday only?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Were you not present with Willie at the time of the briefing with Lt Hunter?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson, I was present.

MS PATEL: And that was the only source of your information at that stage, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Would the same hold true for Willie, because you and he were present all the time together, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I would not able to answer on his behalf, but if I can speculate I would say yes, but he was also the group leader, so he could possibly have found out a little more or made a bit more enquiries.  It was not really our duty to find out all of this, we just assisted him, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Were you not present though with him at all times from the briefing session to the time of the incident taking place?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And there was no-one else that you can recall that he spoke to, to verify any other - any of the information that was received?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson, not that I can remember.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Well nowhere does Willie in his application to us say that Charles Ndaba was in fact linked to the killing of policemen in Durban at the time.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I cannot remember this, but as I said I just heard this from him yesterday.  He told me this yesterday, Chairperson, just to freshen my memory.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Well I'm not sure where he got his information from yesterday, but given the summary of what he would have said at that - well this is a summary that is received from the docket, at that stage the information didn't relate to Charles Ndaba, it related to a Charles Ngcobo.  Does that ring a bell with you?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, this does not ring a bell, Chairperson.  The names could differ.   I wouldn't put my head on a block when it comes to the names, it could be Ngcobo or whoever.

MS PATEL: Alright.  The information that was at hand at that stage was that Charles Ngcobo was in fact responsible for most of the comrade actions and was in possession of AK47 rifles and handgrenades.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This could be the case, Chairperson, I cannot remember.

MS PATEL: And the purpose of the operation at that stage, according to what Nortje would have said at that stage is that they were merely - the instruction was merely to go and look for Charles Ngcobo at the time, to get further information if possible.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This could be that at that stage they only wanted to look for Ngcobo, but we also would have followed up on other information, any information, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Are you certain that an AK47 rifle was handed over and not a Shay(?) 77 rifle?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I'm sure it was an AK47, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: I'm not privy to the statement that Mr Nortje would have made at the time, but in terms of the summary which I have before me he would have stated that at that time that it was in fact a Shay 77 rifle that was handed over and not an AK47.  Can you comment?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairperson, I do not know, my memory tells me it was an AK47.  A Shay is a lot smaller, it's a handgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a what?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It's like an uzi gun, it's not the same type of size as an AK47 is.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chair.
	The members who were sent in to do the infiltration, where they have gotten their weapons from?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They would have used their own service handguns, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Are you certain that they were armed at the time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Service guns yes, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Would askaris also generally be armed at the time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Of those who were trusted, yes, they would have been armed.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us whether from your recollection, the askaris involved in this operation, whether they were trusted askaris?  Or can you not comment?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: You've sought to amend your papers today and to change it from saying rather than
"We gave them east block weapons"
... to state the only an AK47 was handed over to them.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I did not hear properly, Chairperson, it broke up a little.

MS PATEL: Okay.  When your attorney led you in your evidence-in-chief this morning, you stated that you want to amend your papers, your application to us, on the question of whether eastern block weapons were in fact handed over to these - to the group that went in, to change that to read that only an AK47 was given.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Not handed over, just showed, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: So are you saying - if you read the sentence in its entirety, it says
"We went with the askaris to the area, we gave them east block weapons to give the ANC members some reason ..."

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, this is wrong Chairperson, because you cannot do this, this is definitely a mistake.  I know that Simon came to us, he asked us for an AK47 to show to the people because the people weren't very happy, they did not really trust him, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: My Afrikaans is not so great, does "pleiding te gee", does it mean to live out the legend, to give them some kind of credibility?  Is that what is meant by "pleiding"?

ADV DE JAGER: No, I think there's no such word in Afrikaans, it must be a misprint as it stands there.  It could be that the "o" before the "p" was omitted and then it would be "opleiding", to teach them, to instruct them.  If that was the word, but they amended it to another word,  "toon" something.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of weapons do the askaris have?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They also have normal service pistols, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do they have police weapons?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, there had been weapons that came from the police that had been issued to them and if they were finished with deployment, then of the people who were not really credible, these weapons were taken back from them and then if they go on leave, then it is taken in and if then he goes onto an operation again it is issued again.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these eastern block weapons?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, these were normal police issue weapons, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nofomela says that it is possible that of these askaris had been given Tokarevs.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I would not be able to comment on this operation.  On other operations yes, they would have received them if they were infiltrating certain places.

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about this operation.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I'm not sure, I cannot comment on this. I just know about the AK47, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been an approach if you want to infiltrate, to give your prey training with weapons, where you pretend to be MK?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This could be the case, Chairperson, this would have helped a lot if you can gain the person's confidence.