Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you keep it for months, I'm not asking whether you got it before the incidents, I'm talking about how long you kept it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's for months.   That is then that when we knocked off I started to make petrol bombs.

ADV DE JAGER: Which petrol did you use?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The one I've stored it from that Datsun Laurel which we tapped it from the Datsun Laurel.

ADV DE JAGER: And you've testified that you've - money was given to you for petrol?

CHAIRPERSON: Not this time, they reminded them of the petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: I thought he said  - okay, carry on.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I looked for bottles, four bottles - I took sugar ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry Mr Motsamai, before you come to the bottles and the sugar, maybe you should clear this.  Where you given money this time or were you not given money before you reminded them of the petrol from the Datsun?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This time we reminded them about the petrol we stored, then they said to us we should use that petrol but though not all of it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I interrupted you when you were telling us about how you went about making petrol bombs, you mentioned some four bottles - you can proceed from there.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I looked for four bottles which had lids - which had steel lids.  I took sugar, I put it in every bottle - white sugar.  I took a tube which I cut in pieces and I put them in each bottle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that motor car tube?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so Sir.  I took sand and I put in each bottle - that is soft sand.  I took rags and cut them into pieces which will go down to the bottom of each bottle.  Then I put petrol in each bottle, then I closed the lid whilst the rags were aside.  I didn't put the rags inside the bottles.  I stored those rags until midnight when he arrived with a car.  I took four bottles together with the four rags and a knife, I entered the car then we left.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in the car?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was Sergeant Mamome, he was the one who was driving.  We - only the two of us in the car.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, when did you say Mamome arrived?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Midnight.

ADV MEMANI: You know the - I don't know Mr interpreter, I'm not trying to suggest that you're not interpreting properly but it seems - it doesn't seem clear to me that he's specifically referring to midnight but rather to in the middle of the night.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that's exactly - 12 o'clock is midnight and it's in the middle of the night.

ADV MEMANI: What I want to have cleared up, does he intend on each occasion to say that he arrived at 12 midnight or does he intend saying that he arrived at some time during the night - late night.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Midnight.

ADV MEMANI: Okay, thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, what do you mean by midnight?

CHAIRPERSON: 12 o'clock.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What do you mean by midnight?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I speak of 12 o'clock at night.  Always when he arrives it will be 12 o'clock because all our operations, we'd do then around dusk - around dawn, early in the morning.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think why I'm asking you these questions, because your counsel wanted to know, as I understand him - because you see we don't want to have arguments later on.  For you later to come and say, well you meant - you didn't mean 12 o'clock, you just meant around 12 o'clock or in the middle of the night,  we want to be - to clarify that.  Whether you refer to 12 - 24 hour, 12 o'clock on the dot or whether you are saying around midnight.  I think that's what counsel wanted to know.  So, are you saying - sorry, let me not, rather let me leave it to you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When I say - when I specified that time, in Sesotho you call it gitla, I mean 12 o'clock midnight, 12 o'clock during the night.

ADV MEMANI: You may proceed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Then we left together with him with the car.  We went through Mosheshe Road until we arrived where Kings Street starts then we followed Kings Street, we went outside just in front of the shack houses.  Where were stopped we - there are shack houses on the other side of the built houses, then we passed Gala Street, then we passed Mombati Street, then we stopped alongside the road because we have arrived where we were going.  Then we arrived at Mbinda Street.
	For the first time we left the car, both of us after we stopped alongside the road, we examined the situation, we looked as whether there are no people roaming around, then we appeared at Mbinda Street, then there were no people who were walking on the street, people were asleep at that time.  
	We went back to the car, I took out a knife, I opened a hole on the lids of the bottles, then I would cut a hole which will go straight across the middle on the lids of the bottles on each bottle.  Then we'd open them up - he will open others up, then we'll put those rags in, then we'll pull them on top, then we'll put them right inside the bottles, then we would close the lid.  
	Then we alighted from the car.  We put our hand gloves on - at all times we had our hand gloves on and whilst I busy preparing the petrol bombs, I had my hand gloves on.  I'll put sugar on and when I put everything on, I had my hand gloves on so that the fingerprints would not appear on the bottles.  He took the balaclavas, then we put them on.  We went out with the bottles, then we went to that place to that house of Bobby - Bobby's brother's house.
	When we alighted from the car, there was nobody outside, that is nobody was walking on the street.  He took matches - that is Sergeant Mamome, then he lit.  When he lit - when he handled the bottle - when he - it will come out from those holes and it will go through the rags.  When you light it will not explode because the fire doesn't go inside the bottle.  He would put light on the one I was handling then I would pull it down and then he would light other bottles, then we'd run.  
	I was running in front, then I would hit the first window with the first bottle then I had the other bottle on my other hand and it was - then he would come and hit with the other bottle, then I would hit with another bottle and then again for the fourth time.  Inside that house I heard a woman's voice, she was screaming.  We left there ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before the witness proceeds may the applicants application be amended to include offences which might arise as a result of the presence of the woman?

CHAIRPERSON: What offences?  It's for you to say what he's asking for amnesty for, not to leave it for us to decide and when we don't decide something?  You needn't do it now, if you can let us have tomorrow morning you're amended list of offences.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.   You may proceed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When we left, we ran to the car.  We left there, the house was burning, the house was in flames.  We went into the car, he ignited the engine then made a u-turn, then he took me home.

ADV MEMANI: Did anything appear concerning the incident thereafter?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Do you mean the house or to us?

ADV MEMANI: Amongst the policemen.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They took me early in the morning and we reported what we have done and then Mamome explained what we - that we have accomplished the operation which we were instructed by Colonel Coetzee and Shaw.

ADV MEMANI: The next application is set out at paragraph 4 - the bombing of a house belonging to a businessman, Nicos.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Can I continue?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.