Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: The one ran away, jumped over the fence, ran into a maize field, and I went back to the Sentra.   So my Sentra was busy leaving without me.   I took out my weapon and I shot two shots into the dirt road and they stopped and they waited for me.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you shoot two shots into the dirt road?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I was scared they will leave me there.

MR PRINSLOO: So you made sure they'll stop?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.   They were too far away to shout.   I went to my car then, and the person who was behind the wheel got out and I drove on myself.   He sat at another place then.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you went to the Dora Crossing?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we followed the Mercedes Benz to the Dora Crossing.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: There we were warned, me personally, by Commandant Martin, Commandant Deon Martin, they must have reported to him that I fired two shots, and he said to me that in the future I must only act according to his instructions, and he placed me under the command of Meiring, and I would be involved with the handling of the blue light.

MR PRINSLOO: This is at the roadblock?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, this is at the roadblock.

MR PRINSLOO: So a roadblock was set up?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, it was set up.

MR PRINSLOO: And you manned the blue light?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I did, I switched it on and off when I was told to do so.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened at the roadblock, just in broad terms?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Well they decided that the Mercedes would go, would drive to see which cars we'll pull off, so that we don't pull off just any car, in other words when he comes back, he'll give us a sign with his lights, and then I would be given an instruction to turn on the blue light, and that's how we did it.

MR PRINSLOO: And were cars pulled off?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, vehicles were pulled off.   I cannot tell you how many, it could have been three, four, I cannot remember exactly how many were pulled off, but after the blue light they were pulled off, as they passed, they were pulled off, as they passed they were pulled off.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you aware of the fact that the vehicles stopped?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, a van, a pick-up with a canopy, I'm not sure whether it was a Chev or a Ford or what it was, but, and they helped him to - the car broke down and they helped him to be on his way again.

MR PRINSLOO: There was evidence of a Honda Ballade and another car which was stopped at the roadblock, can you just tell the committee how it happened?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: The Honda and the Cressida, at that stage we didn't know what vehicles they were, but first the Mercedes came and then he stopped suddenly, and Kloppers said that the next two cars, we had to pull them off, then I switched on the blue light, and as I switched the blue light on, they were a while away from us, and they both pulled off, both vehicles, for a few seconds, not for a very long time, they once again moved into the road and came closer and stopped again, and where they were pulled off.

MR PRINSLOO: And then what happened?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I was still at the blue light, I assumed that they were asked questions.   The people got out of the car and they sat on the embankment next to the vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there an instruction given to you to switch off the light?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, the instruction was given to Meiring.   We went to Kloppers and Martin and we received instruction to see why the two cars pulled off before, to see if maybe they've dropped something off, these were one of the occupants of the car, I'm not sure if it was one of the Cressida or the Honda, I cannot say with certainty.

MR PRINSLOO: You said this was you and Meiring?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   We took the person, put him in the Mercedes, went back to where they stopped the first time and all we could find was a little bag with ice inside, which was busy melting, next to the road.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you do anything to that person?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I asked him, he didn't want to answer and I assaulted him.

MR PRINSLOO: How did you assault him?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: When we got there, we got out, then you're a bit scared, because the maize is really high, anything could happen.   I took my weapon out and I was ready in case there was danger.   When we saw there wasn't danger, there was ice lying there, I asked the man questions, he didn't want to answer me, and I hit him with the weapon, with the flat side of the weapon I hit him.

MR PRINSLOO: And afterwards, did you take the man back?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: We took him back.   I made him sit down again at the edge, as they were sitting on the embankment, right at the beginning, on the edge, and Meiring then told Klopper, or reported to Klopper, concerning what we found, which was only a bag of ice.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you took, you returned to your position?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   Meiring was already on his way to the Sentra and I saw he was on his way to his Sentra and my last instruction was to stay with him, so I went back to the Sentra.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see that those vehicles were searched?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: There were people at the vehicles, the boots were opened, I cannot say who searched the cars or who did what.

MR PRINSLOO: And after you'd taken up your position, what happened?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I was almost, just before I reached the Sentra, I heard shots and the people were shot at.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you form part of the group who were shooting, or were you not part of that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I was not part of that, I was on my way back to the Sentra.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you shoot at anyone?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.   Did I shoot at someone?   No, not at all, no.

MR PRINSLOO: And after people were shot at, what happened then?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It happened very quickly.   I cannot say who shot and who they shot at, these were the people sitting on the embankment.    Meiring then shouted that a car was coming, I jumped in the Sentra, so did he, and then the others came running, "veldkornet" Badenhorst, Peter Matthew's, as well as Van der Schyff, they jumped into the Sentra and we left the scene.

MR PRINSLOO: And just before you left the scene, amongst the group of people that were sitting on the embankment, did you see children?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I did.

MR PRINSLOO: How many?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I think I saw two, I'm certain I saw two children, I saw them when I went to get the man to take him back to where they stopped before.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you went to the town hall?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened at the town hall?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: We got out of the car, first we just sat there, and then somebody said, I can't remember who, that they feel a bit uncomfortable in the back, because there were three of them in the back, I have to open the boot of the car.   I could see there were things in the car that were not there before.   I opened the boot and I saw that Piet Matthew's had cassettes there and tools, and there was a leather jacket.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know who handled the leather jacket?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Van der Schyff handled the leather jacket and Matthew's had the cassettes, and he gave the equipment to Kallie Meiring, the tools.

MR PRINSLOO: What did they do with it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Kallie said that "veldkornet" Meiring said that he's going to take the tools and take it through the channels.   I took the tapes, the cassettes.

MR PRINSLOO: Why?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: To listen to it, to find if there's something about it.

MR PRINSLOO: Meaning what?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: To listen to it, if it was music or maybe messages.   That was the instruction that I got.