Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is not true.  There were three people targeted.

ADV TEE: In this attack on the Shabangu house, how many AK47 automatic rifles did you take with you?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: We had two AK47's.

ADV TEE: Is that what you told the court where you were convicted?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Is that what you told the court in the Nkuna mater?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: What do you say that Conrad Nkuna was saying that he was carrying the only AK47?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: We had two AK47's, maybe the reason why he is saying that is because they only discovered one AK47.

ADV TEE: And Conrad Nkuna also testified that you threw one of the grenades?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No, that is not true.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you explain to me, who carried the handgrenades?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Soli.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he carry both?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And how did he get the pin out?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: As he was holding two, he threw the first one, and then later the second one after the other one had exploded.

ADV DE JAGER: And isn't there a pin that should be drawn before you throw it?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So in each hand he had a hand grenade?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He had two handgrenades in his possession.

ADV DE JAGER: What did you carry, what did you have?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I was holding an AK47.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, did you see the two handgrenades explode inside the house?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, I did.  I heard a very big explosion and I could see through the window.

ADV TEE: And you could see through the window?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I saw the explosion, not necessarily through the window but I couldn't see what was happening inside the house.

ADV TEE: Because the evidence in the Nkuna trial was that one landed inside the bedroom and another hand grenade landed outside.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is not true.

ADV TEE: And the Magistrate seems in that trial to have accepted the police evidence to the effect that one grenade exploded inside the bedroom and the other hand grenade exploded outside the bedroom, outside the house.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: All I know is that both grenades exploded inside the house.  The question of whether one exploded outside or inside, I am not clear about that, because what I know is that it takes about three seconds for a hand grenade to explode.
	It takes three seconds before it explodes, so it can't be clear as to whether it was inside or outside.

ADV TEE: After the attack was complete, isn't it true that you ran away from the scene of the attack?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Isn't it also true that you ran away to a safe house and that is not Joe's house?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is not true.  After the attack, we ran back to Joe's house.

ADV TEE: Now, at the time of your arrest, did you see the police arresting Soli?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: When I was arrested, we are in the same room as Soli, they first arrested me, the took me out and put me in the passage and they continued to search the house and I heard the sound of a gun.

ADV TEE: Now did you hear the sound of a hand grenade in the house?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I was in the passage about a few metres away.

ADV TEE: And did you hear the sound of an exploding hand grenade in your house at the time of your arrest?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I didn't.

ADV TEE: Did a hand grenade explode at the time when you were arrested?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: It was after I was arrested, yes.

ADV TEE: How long after?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: About five minutes I would say.

ADV TEE: And was that also after the shot that you had heard?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

ADV TEE: And how long was the interval between the shot and the grenade going off?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: There wasn't that much length of time.  I would say approximately it happened at the same time.  It was so quick.

ADV TEE: When the police arrested you, was Soli in the room with you?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, he was in the room.

ADV TEE: When the police took you out, could they see Soli?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.

ADV TEE: Why not?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He was under the bed.

ADV TEE: Now you haven't heard, but Conrad Nkuna says that he thought from what he observed, the police had gunned down Soli in cold blood.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, that is correct.

ADV TEE: You say Soli was hiding?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I will say that what happened, that when they put me inside the passage, when you get out of the room, you get into the passage and the police proceeded to get into the room, that is after when they came out that I discovered that Soli was shot.

ADV TEE: How did you know Soli was under the bed?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I saw him.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what relevance is this to our proceedings Mr Tee?

ADV TEE: Mr Chairman, it is going to be relevant in terms of the argument, because I am going to be cross-referencing this detail to what has already been recorded by the Magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be interested in the Magistrate's proceedings with regard to the arrest of Soli, why would that interest us at all.

ADV TEE: Perhaps if I can persuade the Committee during the argument, it might become quite interesting.
	Mr Chairman, at this stage, I am not going to pursue that line.

ADV DE JAGER: May I ask a question.  I paragraph 43 you state only Soli and I went to Swalalha.  What about Conrad?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Conrad was staying at Joe's place, he didn't go to Swalalha.

ADV DE JAGER: Where was he arrested?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He was arrested in Swalalha, he was coming for the funeral on Saturday.
	On Saturday they went to the funeral of a relative to some place which I don't know, after the funeral he came back to the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.  I couldn't make out when he arrived there or what.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you about the incident itself.  You said Joe Nkuna took up position, something like that, what did you mean by that?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.  When we arrived we entered through the opposite side, to get through in between some of those houses, that is where Joe came to a standstill.
	He didn't jump the main road towards the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Then during your evidence in mitigation, paginated page 7 around line 20, actually 19, you say that Joe was keeping observation because he was patrolling the whole area.  The street and the places where we were.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.  He wasn't exactly patrolling, but he had to observe the place.  This is what I was referring to.  Maybe even the person who wrote the statement ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well if he in fact was patrolling the whole area, it would suggest that he was not standing in one place?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I am saying that he was on an observation post, he was not really patrolling the area, that is what I said to court.