Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It's a room there's a toilet just beside the house or next to the house.

MR SEMENYA: Are you sure there is a shower in that room?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It's a toilet not a shower.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you write a shower both on this sketch as well as in the book?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Which page is that?

MR SEMENYA: If you look at the diagram you will see that it says "shower/toilet".

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It's a toilet.

MR SEMENYA: I will find the right section in the book, even in the book you say it has a - can I refer you to the affidavit, I don't know how it has been described, but it is a five-page affidavit.  Do you see that affidavit?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I can see.

MR SEMENYA: On paragraph 5, third line onwards reads
"The staff houses had toilets and showers, one each per house".
Did you say this?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I haven't yet found the affidavit you are referring to.

MR SEMENYA: Deputy Chairperson I don't know whether the witness has the affidavit.

UNKNOWN: Let me just find out.  Do you have that affidavit now?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I haven't yet got it.

UNKNOWN: See that he has it then please.  It is coming to you now.

MR SEMENYA: Do you see from the fourth line, middle of the fourth line,
"The staff houses had toilets and showers...."
did you tell this to Mrs Nicholson?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: You didn't tell it to Mrs Nicholson?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I told her that there was a toilet in one of the rooms and the other one didn't have a toilet.  She might probably have made a mistake.

MR SEMENYA: You mean she made a mistake when she says "one each per house"?  I thought that amount of English was plain.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I think the way in which I explained to her probably she didn't understand or grab what I was saying.

MR SEMENYA: Just say it in Zulu, we will attempt to see whether it is capable of this interpretation.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I said to her the other room has got a toilet and the other one does not have a toilet but the big house or the bigger house has got a toilet.  That is how I put it to her.

MR SEMENYA: Now you told us that you used to live in the house, in the main house, right?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes when I arrived, at the time when I arrived.

MR SEMENYA: At what point did you not live in the main house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't remember as to the time, maybe he can remind me.

MR SEMENYA: Well I was not sleeping there.  If you are able to assist me just tell me at what part of your stay for two and a half years did you stay in the house or not stay in the house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: If I was aware of if I knew I would be telling you.  I can't remember everything, I am not a computer and I can't tell you everything as it happened.

MR SEMENYA: Was there a time when you did not live in the house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is correct, at some stage I did not stay in the main house, I stayed in the little room because we kept guard of the premises.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Mr Morgan?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do.

MR SEMENYA: He says he doesn't know you, or it was the first time he was seeing you when you were from the men's I think.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I am telling you that they are lying all of them.  If he does not know me where do I get all this story from, did I suck it out of my thumb?

MR SEMENYA: Well you seemed to have sucked Shell House out of your thumb, just give me an answer.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: If I did create this story how did I find myself in Swaziland, Zambia, Mozambique and all the other places, did I just go there on my own accord?

MR SEMENYA: Is that your answer to my question?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is my answer.

MR SEMENYA: Which bedroom did you use in Mrs Mandela's house Mr Cebekhulu?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It's not a bedroom but I think it was a sitting room and I used to sleep on the sofa in the other small room where she used to study at night, I used to sleep there because in the morning I had to wake up and clean the whole house.

MR SEMENYA: Well you have a diagram there, is that the one with the sliding door?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: You have given us a diagram of the house did you sleep in the room that was having the sliding door?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I was sleeping where I am pointing, that is the room that had the toilet.

MR SEMENYA: No that one is outside the house.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did say to you that I stayed in the main house when I first arrived, but at a later stage I was changed and put into the other room together with the other boys.

MR SEMENYA: I don't know whether this is confusing but while you were sleeping in the main house were you sleeping in the room with the sliding door or which room were you sleeping in?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: When I arrived or when this incident of death occurred, because when I arrived I stayed in the main house and at a later stage I stayed with the other boys, so I don't know which period you are referring to.

UNKNOWN: I will try and assist.  The question is that when you stayed in the main house which room did you stay in, can you point out on the diagram and was it the room with the sliding doors or was it not the room with the sliding doors?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I was sleeping in the main house. I slept I think it was the dining room because there were sofas there.

MR SEMENYA: Sorry you are confusing me, a dining room does not have sofas and you say you were sleeping in sofas what are you talking about?

UNKNOWN: Mr Semenya he has I think answered the question insofar as it wasn't a bedroom, that it was one of the living rooms where there was a sofa.  I wonder if you could speed it up a little bit and then I must also ask you now much longer are you going to be because it's now half past six and you started at ten to six?

MR SEMENYA: Deputy Chairperson I would oblige if I get stopped anywhere down the line.  The critical aspect about this particular witness to me is he purports to have stayed for two and a half years in a particular, with Mrs Mandela and it takes me this long to establish where he is sleeping in the main house.  But I can move on if he won't give me an answer better than that one.

UNKNOWN: I think it would be advisable.  I am sure you have a lot of other good questions to put.

MR SEMENYA: So clearly I must infer that when you say you went to the toilet you were not sleeping in the main house at the time?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes at the time when I was going to the toilet I was already occupying the other room with others.

MR SEMENYA: With who?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Jabu, Mabuza, the football team.

MR SEMENYA: Is it sleeping area number one?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Jerry Richardson says that was his room, did you sleep in that one too?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Which one?

MR SEMENYA: The same one, let's not play now.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: You mean the other one that I was sleeping at or the other one next to it?

MR SEMENYA: Did you sleep with Jerry Richardson in the same room?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: You mean me?

MR SEMENYA: Are you prepared to play or are you prepared to give answers Mr Cebekhulu?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I am prepared to answer.

MR SEMENYA: Did you stay in the same bedroom with Jerry Richardson?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Now you have already told us that you saw the killing of Stompie.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And the book describes - were you able to say which part of the body was stabbed twice by Mrs Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I did not see.  What I saw is that she raised her hand twice.  I don't know which part of his body was stabbed, but I saw her raising her hand twice.

MR SEMENYA: According to Richardson he would have cut him with a shears at the railway station, at the railway line.  He cannot be correct to say that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Well maybe he made a mistake.