Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.   Mr Van der Merwe?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Judge, we are ready to proceed.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, the Committee will note that there is an amnesty application for Mr Baker in Volume 1, filed at pages 91 to 112.  This was actually done in mistake, the improved application is filed in Volume 2 and from page 139.  They are in essence the same, I think the second one is just an improved version.  For practical purposes, I would suggest that we ignore the first one and deal with the application on page 139 of Volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   I will proceed then.  Mr Baker, do you confirm that you have applied for amnesty in this regard as per the Annexure, Form 1, from page 139 onwards in Volume 2, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think - sorry, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.   I am not going to bear the Committee with all the background information, do you confirm the information contained and given to this Committee from page 139 right up to page 154, which is your background?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I do Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: I would like to just point to one incident which might help this Committee with regard to the times that these incidents took place in.  On page 146 of your application, you indicate there that in 1986 you were injured in a limpet mine attack which was placed by Christopher Gordon Webster and Robert McBride in which one of your colleagues, Lt-Col Wellman was eventually killed as a result of that explosion, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I do Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And that is also the direct cause for which you suffer hearing problems at this stage of your life?  Is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: As far as you are concerned and as far as you know, nobody has come forward to apply for amnesty in that matter, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Let us proceed to your application itself.  Mr Chair, the application from page 155 onwards, there is however just one correction we would like to make, on page 157 the last sentence of that first paragraph should read
"... I accept that the concealment of the body (it should be body, it should be death)."

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that Mr Baker?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I confirm that Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Baker, if you can then start for us, you are in this incident applying for amnesty for any crime or delict relating to the death of Nthombi Khubeka in which we will also include the abduction and possible assault of Nthombi Khubeka, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Through common purpose, yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You are not exactly sure of the date of this incident, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Do you accept the dates that were given here and will be led by that, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I accept that, that is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Right, can you start reading for us at paragraph 4 of your application please.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I was a Captain in the South African Police, second in command of Section C1, Vlakplaas.   I was visiting our operational team in Durban, who were based in the facility near Amanzimtoti from which the teams were operating.  The team fell under the command of the South African Police Security Branch Divisional Headquarters at the area where they were deployed.  In this instance, they fell under the command of Capt Henti Botha and Gen Steyn of the ...(indistinct) Security Branch.  A safehouse used by trained MK cadres infiltrating from Swaziland, had been identified in kwaMashu.  An askari, Jimmy Mbane, posing as an MK cadre had infiltrated the facility which was run by an old woman, unknown to me.   Members of her family were Umkhonto weSizwe members and she was a loyal ANC supporter.  The purpose of the operation was to arrest four MK members who were to infiltrate from Swaziland and report at the facility.  The askari had to determine when they would arrive. After six weeks the cadres had not arrived and the askari's version of events was being questioned by Capt Botha.   The askari, still pretending to be an MK member, met with her and she was apprehended by Capt Botha and his team and brought to our base near Amanzimtoti.

UNKNOWN: If I could just interpose here.  This paragraph, this is obviously information that you got from somewhere, can you just help us with that.  Where did you hear it or who did you get it from?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: This information was given to me by Col Taylor.

UNKNOWN: When was that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That was the afternoon that I arrived at the facility and which is the same afternoon, or evening, that Ms Khubeka was brought to the facility.

UNKNOWN: Facility, you mean ...

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: At Winkelspruit.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Baker, in this paragraph you say that "the facility was run by an old woman, unknown to me", is that in fact, are you talking about the deceased?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, I was told that it was an old woman.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told that she was an old woman, because it would seem that, well that she was not an old woman in that she was approximately roundabout 40 years of age.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But your information was that she was an old woman?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, that was an old woman.  I was present at the base.  During the questioning by Capt Botha, I went in and out to establish whether there was any information on the four MK cadres.   Later Capt Botha informed me that she had died apparently from a heart attack.  Capt Botha decided that her body should be removed and placed elsewhere, the purpose was to prevent the secret facility being identified and further to prevent the ANC from learning that their safehouse had been exposed.   He also did not want to link the investigation by the South African Police as this would have seriously jeopardised the covert operation.  I had no role in her questioning and the subsequent removal of her body.   Since I assumed that Capt Botha would have discussed the matter further with his superior, Gen Steyn, I did not take any action myself.  I accept that the concealment of her death, prevented the investigation of her death according to laid down procedures.

UNKNOWN: Right, if I can just take you back to page 156, the last paragraph, you indicate that at one stage you went in and out to establish whether there was any information on the four MK cadres, you then carry on to say "later Capt Botha informed me", were you present at the base for the whole period?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I was not.

UNKNOWN: Can you just tell the Committee what happened, if you went anywhere?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I recall, I accompanied Lt at that stage, du Preez, to go and fetch, to go and buy food for my people who were at the base.

UNKNOWN: Right.    Lt du Preez, were you in his company at all, until the time that you left to go and buy food or do you not know where he was at that stage?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I can recall, I left with him and returned with him.

UNKNOWN: No, before you left with him, you don't know where he was, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you participate in these events for any personal gain?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No I did not Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Were your actions in this operation driven by spite or malice?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Do you then also confirm the rest of your application, right until page 161 of the Bundle, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.