Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter I just want to ask you one question. And this is with regards to the background of the evidence you have given earlier. How do you feel about those ideals which you no longer identify with. If I listen to your evidence in the last ten minutes are you not glad, happy that everything went wrong in the end? Do you not think that it could have been a slaughter and nothing would have come out of it anyway?

UNKNOWN: Because of the leadership we had if it went further it would have been chaos. I think it would have been the greatest defeat the Afrikaner Boer could ever have experienced. We were motivated yes but it would have lead to disaster because we were told stories and we were motivated by things like for example the army is going to be there. The police is going to help us. There is going to be a "Volkstaat." And at the end of the day there was nothing. And all those people would have fought against us. So it would have been terrible. I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: But also you talk about the defeat of the Afrikaner Boer but also the destruction that you would have caused if it was planned better and it was executed better the whole concept. I am referring to the whole concept now. Are you not glad that the whole concept failed?

UNKNOWN: I am glad about that.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Venter the video which we looked at I am not sure whether this is on record. When did Mr Terreblanche make that speech? The date have you got any idea?

UNKNOWN: It was the beginning of the year of the elections, so January, February, March.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to force you. I don't want to put pressure on you to give us a date. It is no worries. Now with regards to you ending your membership there was evidence here about people who just did not continue paying their subscription fees or their membership fees. How did you end your membership with the AWB?

UNKNOWN: I packed my bag, I turned around and I walked away. Afterwards I wrote in a written resignation.

ADV BOSMAN: But you actively resigned?

UNKNOWN: Yes I have.

ADV BOSMAN: About the pipe bombs in Randfontein. What time of the morning did you plant them? I was wondering how it was so easy for you to get into the toilets.

UNKNOWN: I think it was just before eight if I am not wrong. The taxi ranks is at the back of these toilets, behind the toilets and the people from the taxi rank had access to these toilets. It was public toilet.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell me how busy it was that morning?

UNKNOWN: There were 4 taxis there at the taxi rank.

ADV BOSMAN: And people, how many people were in the vicinity?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson from what I can conclude at that stage you do not really look around because your state of mind is a bit messed up. You are not functioning properly.

ADV BOSMAN: Let's put it in general terms. Eight 'o clock in the morning in Randfontein is it quite a busy time or not?

UNKNOWN: It is quite busy.

ADV BOSMAN: Then on further question. Maybe it is not very relevant but I would like to know. Who guarded Terreblanche when all you "Ystergaard" members were at the game farm?

UNKNOWN: There were people who were delegated or were tasked to guard him during that time.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it Ystergarde members?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know where he was when everybody was at the game farm?

UNKNOWN: At his house and also on his farm in Ventersdorp.

ADV BOSMAN: At the head office?

UNKNOWN: I cannot tell you whether he was at the head office.

ADV BOSMAN: But I mean that Ventersdorp is the head office?

UNKNOWN: That is correct yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And now I am just very curious. Where does a Western Transvaler learn to speak English the way you do? I was just wondering.

UNKNOWN: Now we are getting to the purity of race. I grew up in an English home. I went to school in Nelspruit.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you an English speaking Boer?

UNKNOWN: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter how long were you a member of the AWB?

UNKNOWN: I finished there in 1996 after I got out of prison. '85,'86 I joined them, so around about ten years.

CHAIRPERSON: And in all that time there was only one leader which is Mr Terreblanche?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand that he has been the leader for 21 years already?

UNKNOWN: 21 years I think that was in the early nineties. That was the birthday. I think then he was leader for 21 years. I think now it is about 28 years that he has been the leader.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand your evidence he is a man you do not ask questions, you cannot ask him questions he'll shoot you or kick you or do whatever he wants. It is a strange question which I am going to ask. Was there democracy within the AWB? Was there an attempt made to get another leader?

UNKNOWN: I know for a fact that because of medical which Mr Terreblanche is suffering from diseases or whatever at one stage there was a sub- or vice-leader chosen who would take over if Terreblanche died or if something happened to him. I do not know why they decided before that to get a new leader but I know a vice-leader was chosen.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that he would have been a leader of the Volkstaat as well.

UNKNOWN: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that during these incidents in general the black people were the target at that it worked out that way?

UNKNOWN: I wouldn't say the black people. I would say our enemy the ANC. If you look at the time in which we acted we were told that the ANC/SACP alliance was our enemy and the political struggle which was in progress at that time we were told that an ANC/SACP was our enemy. I wouldn't say all the black people or all the races outside of the white race. I would say ANC/SACP.

CHAIRPERSON: It is also said that this Volkstaat black people would be able to live there but they would not have a vote to right?

UNKNOWN: That is how I accepted it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you have left the AWB what is your attitude towards black people?

UNKNOWN: I am now in the position where I have got the approval of the ANC, their youth league and some of their other institutions in the area where I work. A good friend of mine a mayor of Phalaborwa, Joe Matabula. I am building wooden houses.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am not talking about your job or anything.

UNKNOWN: But this is now what I am saying. The circumstances I do not know what the word is but my interaction with these people on a daily basis changed completely. I never thought that I would go to the ANC and ask for help in building houses. So my motivation changed completely.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you now live with black people?

UNKNOWN: Yes I do get along with them. I have got no problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Things now changed since 1990, life changed a few peoples' lives improved and life continues. Can you live in the New South Africa?

UNKNOWN: Well I am here to ask you if I can live in the New South Africa because the sentence I have got I find it difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us put it this way. We grant you amnesty will you be satisfied in the New South Africa?

UNKNOWN: Yes I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't you got plans or looking forward to living in a Volkstaat now that you get to know these people?

UNKNOWN: No like I have said to you I have rejected all these principles.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by building wooden houses?

UNKNOWN: That is the business I am in. I am in timber frame houses. I physically build wooden houses. And they were also fabricated for the RDP project.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you are involved in this project the money that you make out of this job is that not the reason why you are willing to change or is it from your heart? If you will now make money out of it or not.