Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-28

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I am hurting, very hurting, because that was very painful.  What was happening was very painful, but now I have found peace because after that everything went well.

MR KINCAID: So you say that the shooting at the church hall caused you emotional hurt, did it also cause you anger?   Did it also provoke and make you very angry?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: What did the shooting at this church hall, if anything, what did it make you realise?  Did you guys come to the realisation that you were very susceptible to the attacks of the Security Forces?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: This whole incident of shooting made us to realise that we have nothing to use when it comes to protecting ourselves, and we realised that we have the sole responsibility as the youth of Kabusi.  That is why I had to involve myself in trying to help contribute in the process of trying to protect our residential area.

MR KINCAID: Stones and petrol bombs, was that not enough to defend yourself, Jimmy? - against the Security Forces.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No, those were not sufficient.

MR KINCAID: What happened after the Matomela Hall shooting?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: When we realised that we have managed to drive away the police with stones and petrol bombs, we later gathered and we were forced to go to a certain piece of ground that was called eSikhewini(?).  We had to devise means to get weapons that could be used.  This issue of the farmers that were in the neighbourhood came about and we realised that those were the people, that was the place that we can get the weapons from to try and protect ourselves.

MR KINCAID: Is your testimony that after the church hall shooting you were threatened with being removed to another locality from the Kabusi township?  Did I understand your evidence to be that?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No, there's nothing like that.

MR KINCAID: Your evidence is that you realised that you had to arm yourselves and that the farmers were possessed of arms and so your attention turned to the farmers, is that your evidence?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MR KINCAID: I think you understood it, Ms Interpreter.

INTERPRETER: No, it was not complete, he said "yes" but the question was not complete because I did not get the last words.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy, you realised that you needed arms to defend yourselves and that the farmers were possessed of arms, they had the arms, is that your evidence?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: What would you have achieved by attacking the farmers or by, yes, by attacking the farmers?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We were going to get weapons that would be used to protect ourselves and even the farmers would vacate their place and we would even use their homes as our place of residence.

MR KINCAID: You'd also obviously have been removing support for the Security Forces?  By taking away the farmers the Security Forces wouldn't have had the immediate support of the farmers.  That is an objective you state in your affidavit, do you confirm that to have been such an objective?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do.

MR KINCAID: Now how did you go about persuading the farmers to vacate their farms?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We did it by going straight to them, to their houses.

MR KINCAID: Yes, please proceed.  What did you do there?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: When we got there we told them to leave, to vacate their place of residence.  First of all when we had a meeting on that soccer ground we first wrote letters to them telling them to leave.  They responded by saying they were not prepared to move.  We decided to go straight there.  Our aim was to get the arms and try to make them leave to go to stay in town where the other whites were staying.

MR KINCAID: Is your testimony that you by way of a written demand, advised the farmers that they should leave their farms and when they refused you then decided that you should go and forcefully oblige them to leave their farms?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Now this decision to get the farmers to leave their farms, how did it come about, was it in consequence of a meeting, a gathering of the youth and who gave the order, who ordered or advised that such a course of conduct be pursued?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: That came out at the meeting, that transpired at the meeting that we had.  The person who brought about this plan was Mr Mfana Green.

MR KINCAID: This meeting, Jimmy, who attended it, what kind of, what type of the Kabusi residents attended this meeting?  Was it the elder statesmen of the township or was it the prominent leaders of the township or was it the youth of the township, who attended this meeting when this decision was taken?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It was a youth meeting.  It's the youth that took a decision.  This happened on that particular day when this incident of the Matomela Hall happened.

MR KINCAID: And am I correct in saying it was the youth, Jimmy, because it was the youth that were involved in the actual struggle, the armed violent struggle with the Security Forces?  It was their decision, they were the main actors in the tension, in the violence of the conflict with the Security Forces in the township?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: So the farmers refused to leave their farms, what happened in consequence of their refusal, was that the end of the matter or did the youth take further steps?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Were further steps taken?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy, these meetings that were held consequently on the shooting of the church hall, can you recall when these meetings were held?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Kincaid, you'll have to correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of his evidence.  Did he talk about meetings in his evidence?  I thought he was talking about a meeting at the soccer ground, where they had gathered after the shooting at the Matomela Hall.

MR KINCAID: Advocate Sandi, that's quite correct, he has testified that there was a meeting after the church hall shooting and when I asked of him what the response was when they were informed that the farmers weren't willing to leave their lands, he mentioned that another meeting was called.
	So at this last meeting we're referring to now, after it was indicated the farmers were not going to accede to your written demand - first of all let me ask you, when did these meetings, consequent to the church hall shooting, take place?  More-or-less when did this happen, can you recall the month and the year?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can still remember the year, but not the month - I mean the dates.  The month was October, between, from August to October, August, October and December.

MR KINCAID: Those were the times of the meetings.  When I led you I think I led that the church hall meeting was December of 1989, so what I want to know is, these two meetings that you held after it was decided to get the farmers off their land, was that still in the month of December and in the year of 1989 or was it later on?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: They took place in 1989 and the others were before the incident of the church hall in 1989.

MR KINCAID: Okay, so these two meetings must have still been in 1989, so one must assume that it was towards the end of December 1989.
	What transpired at the second meeting, when you were informed that the farmers weren't going to leave, what happened there, what was decided there?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The decision that was taken was that we should go to those farmers and explain to them that they should leave their homes and also get the arms.  The aim was to threaten them to leave their places and get the arms in order to protect ourselves.