Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: We revert now to the second applicant.  He had concluded his evidence in chief, had he.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbelo, let us first deal with your initial infiltration of this group.  Now, this happened after you were allegedly in jail and you were then allegedly released and you went to meet these people.  You recall that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do recall it.

MR BOOYENS: Are you going to reply in English?  Are you not going to use an interpreter?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am going to reply in English, because it seems as if I am, they do not understand me very good.

MR BOOYENS: Well, thank you, I, that will certainly shorten things.
	Mr Mbelo, the group that you visited, did you think they were dangerous?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to what I was told, that this group might be a well trained group, I thought that they were dangerous.

MR BOOYENS: Your own observations?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: My own observations, I saw nothing of that sort when I arrived there.

MR BOOYENS: Why then run away after just one night?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Because my legend was not good.  They could have checked the following day.

MR BOOYENS: Why go in at all if you know your legend was not ...

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did not expect them to ask me what they asked me.  I did not expect them to ask me for a contact number where I told them I was from.

MR BOOYENS: Subsequently, when you dealt with these people again, later at the shootout and you are aware that they were, are you aware that they were shooting, they were armed?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I saw one guy who was running and shooting.

MR BOOYENS: Shooting with what, AK?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: With an AK47 and we were told that morning that those guys are well armed and they are going to attack a certain mini-bus.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Now, let us deal with that planning meeting that you attended.
	You speak good English I see, do you speak Afrikaans as well?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am very good in both languages, Afrikaans, Sesotho and English.

MR BOOYENS: The meeting early that morning, just for the sake of clarity, Bellingan was not the senior officer there, is that correct.  He was just a Sergeant and there were Commissioned Officers there present.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is correct, but Mr Bellingan, since he told even the Committee that Lieutenant Liebenberg was still young, he did not have any, what you can call it, he was not so good in organising such big thing, operations since he was still young.  He was a young Commissioned Officer that time.

MR BOOYENS: No, but the man in charge of the operation.  	Do not switch that on when I am talking please, because then you switch mine off.
	The man that was in charge of the operation was actually Major Odendal, not so.  He was the senior Commissioned Officer?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do say, yes, he was the highest rank there.

MR BOOYENS: And we are not suggesting that Mr Bellingan did not take part in the discussions, but, certainly, he was not the only one who told people what to do, set out various positions ...

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Sorry, I thought, that is right.

MR BOOYENS: As far as the planning on the ground is concerned, did Major Odendal also play a role there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, he did play a role since he was also a Major on the planning.

MR BOOYENS: Now, Mr Mbelo, did, you have been a policeman for quite a long time, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: In the first place, it is the duty of a policeman to apprehend criminals, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: One would not expect them to tell you that it is your duty, you would know that automatically?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is what we are taught at the college.

MR BOOYENS: And what you know as well?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: Did Odendal suggest that these people should be eliminated, swept, taken out, whatever?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Those words were not uttered by Odendal.

MR BOOYENS: Did any of the Murder and Robbery people suggest that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Sir, none of them.

MR BOOYENS: So, they gave an instruction to what, all intense and purposes, appeared to be a regular police operation to apprehend criminals in extremely dangerous circumstances, would that be correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So, after they finished speaking you were clearly under the impression that these people had to be arrested.  Is that ...

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right, I was under that impression, but there were some words which were used.  Words like, like I said before in my main evidence, that they had to be taken out.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, some people said that, but the people in charge of the operation never said that.  Is that right?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: So, amongst the lower ranks there was talk about taken out or swept or something like that, is it not correct, Mr Mbelo, that everybody was excited.  It, this was dangerous and didn't you yourself expected a fire-fight this morning?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did.

MR BOOYENS: And Mr Bellingan says that it is quite possible that he said, listen, if a man lifts a gun, shoot him and shoot to kill, because this was a war-type situation.  Is it possibly what you have heard?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: But so we were not dealing with an unqualified taking out of people or something like that, it was a situation if they start the fight, we will fight back, we will fight better and we will win.  Is that more or less correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: No suggestion at any stage that if they surrender or if we can do this without a fight, we will, in any case murder them, that was never suggested by any of them, anybody.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So, Mr Mbelo, you are also applying for amnesty and, please, do not misunderstand me.  I understand that you were in a difficult situation at the time.  Now, once this fire-fight started you must have been extremely excited, frightened and, like they say, the adrenalin was pumping, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I cannot say I was excited.  All I can say is I was frightened.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, excited, perhaps, does not convey exactly.  It was a high tension situation.  Would that be, more or less, a correct summary?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: And even those decisions that you had to make, you had to make in split seconds, very quickly, without having had the time of calm, mature reflection like we have now?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, that is right.

MR BOOYENS: And there you have related to us a very unfortunate incident in which you were yourself involved, which you shot a man which you really should not have not shot.  That is why you are applying for amnesty, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is why I am applying for amnesty, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, today we can all speak openly and honestly about these things, but in those days one could not speak honestly and openly about those things, because you would get into trouble, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And without going into the technicalities of it, if you had reported something like this, that you have done something like this to your seniors officers, chances are that you would have been charged for murder, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not know, Sir, maybe.