Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  This is a continuation of the hearing of the applications of Messrs Antonie Jagga, Lesize Michael Jantjie, Colin Anthony Peckenham Robertshaw, Daele Daniel Thulo.  This hearing started at JISS Centre in Johannesburg, in the suburb of Mayfair.  This hearing was heard on the 10th, 12th and 13th of October this year.  It was adjourned then.  Because of unforeseen circumstances, we could not conclude the hearing and it was postponed to today here in Bloemfontein.
	For the record, I am Motata, I will be chairing this hearing and I'll ask the Panel Members to put their names on record.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Lax is the name, L-a-x, Member of the Amnesty Committee.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  My name is J B Sibanyoni, a Member of the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I would ask the legal representatives to place themselves on record and I will start with the legal representatives of the applicants.

MR VISSER: May it please you, Chairperson.  My name is Visser, instructed by Wagener Muller Attorneys of Pretoria, I appear for all four the applicants still, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  For the victims?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.  My name is Malindi, M-a-l-i-n-d-i, I appear for the families of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malindi.  Mr Koopedi, are you also still going to interchangeably ... I don't know what the arrangement is.

MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, Chairperson.  My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear on behalf of the victims.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  I am Mapoma, I'm the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Mr Visser, are we ready?

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, as ready as we'll ever be.  But if you will forgive me to take this opportunity before we commence to, on behalf of our team, to congratulate you on your permanent appointment to the Judiciary of the Transvaal Provincial Division.  We're certainly looking forward to receiving many good Judgments from your hand, and we are hoping that we might be able to appear before and enjoy it as much as we've done appearing before you before the Commission.  I just thought that I'd like to say that, I hope you won't find that out of order.

CHAIRPERSON: I must thank you very much, Mr Visser, because we are in the same division.  I hope our meeting is not going to end with the Amnesty.  I'm indebted to you and I hope I shall make you proud on the bench.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, we have two witnesses left, two applicants, Thulo and Robertshaw.  The order in which we propose to call them is first to call Mr Thulo, his application you will find in the bundle at page 23 onwards, Chairperson.  He is ready and available and he's willing to take the oath.  He has made two requests Chairperson, to me, as far as translation is concerned.  First is that I would ask my questions to him in Afrikaans, not in English, because he feels more comfortable with that.  And secondly, that he would like to address you in Southern Sotho.  I take it that there will be an appropriate Interpreter available.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may just ask Mr Mapoma.  We've got provision in our interpretation, don't we?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, we do Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  It is all in order.  May I just interrupt and say I don't have a pen, I don't know for what reason.  Probably I'm being discriminated upon with my new office.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, you are also an applicant in the amnesty applications which deal with the matters of Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya, Tax Sejanamane and Mbulelo Ngono, also known as KK, is that correct?  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

INTERPRETER: Just a minute.  Just a technical hitch, Chairperson, apparently there's just the Afrikaans relay.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll afford you a minute for the engineers to fix the problem.  Could you bear with us, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
TECHNICIANS SORT OUT PROBLEM WITH SOUND EQUIPMENT

INTERPRETER: The English went out on the wrong channel, if the legal representative could just ask his question again.

MR VISSER: I will do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, you are an applicant in this application and this deals with the persons Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya, Tax Sejanamane, Mbulelo Ngono, also known as KK, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You've submitted a written application in terms of the Act, it appears in the bundle from page 23, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Depending on what you're going to say today, do you confirm the contents of this statement as being the truth?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also gave instructions to your legal representatives and a statement on your evidence was compiled, it appears from page 29A to E, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you also confirm the contents of that statement?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: On page 29A you referred to your application, paragraph 7A and B on page 23, and you gave the instruction that you would like to apply for an amendment, that paragraph 7A must read
"National Party"
and 7B must read:
"Supporter"

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell the Chairperson and the Members of the Committee why you made this amendment?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Firstly, I wanted to explain that at the time of this incident I was working for the then government, which was the National Party then.  I believe that in my relationship with that government, I was the same as the person who was supporting that government.  Thank you, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: In other words, that what you did was indeed in support of the South African Government, in its struggle against the freedom alliances, or freedom fighters?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: On page 29A, you also referred to the document, the General Background to Amnesty Applications, which usually serves as Exhibit A in front of the Committee, and you also told me that there are certain paragraphs that you cannot confirm in that document.  And those paragraphs appear on page 29A.  Does that correlate with the knowledge that you have and the experience that you had in the Security Branch, in the time when you worked for them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR VISSER: You also mentioned on page 29B, the identity of certain informers and you made the point there that because you heard that all these victims had indeed became informers of the Security Branch and because they are victims, you had to disclose their identities, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you have a problem in disclosing the names and identities of other informers who are not victims?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why is it so that you do not want to identify them or disclose their identities?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The first reason is that because they are not victims, therefore I'm not supposed to expose them.  And then again, even to protect their safety.  Again my legal counsel will be able to explain further in that regard.

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, on page 24, paragraph 4 you mentioned in your amnesty application, or you incorporated Mr Jantjie's amnesty application in yours.  This hearing started on the 10th of October, where you present when this hearing started?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was there in the beginning, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: At the last hearing on the 10th of October, were you present there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not present in the initial hearing, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where were you?