Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't recall Mr Chairman, 1 minute, 2, 3, 4, 5, it was a long time ago Mr Chairman, I didn't understand any of the contents of the questions, so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you participate in the questioning at all?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Can I just intervene, Mr Wills?  Why did you go in and out then, if you weren't participating in the questioning?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman I thought perhaps there would be some translating going on, I would be able to catch up on a few things, but that didn't take part and it's a small room and I merely left, I had no active part to play in that at that stage.

MR LAX: So it's your evidence that you don't know what was going on in there in terms of what was being asked etc., you didn't follow it and you just went in and out?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't follow it but I did know that we would be pursuing the line of now that she had been picked up, it was for her to say where the combatants were and where the weaponry was.

MR LAX: Then just while I'm on this thing, did I understand you correctly that you were only in there for relatively short periods?  2,3 minutes, 4,5 minutes, nothing longer than that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, no, nothing longer.  I couldn't participate, I couldn't assist, so I had no place there.

MR LAX: Yes.  Nobody explained to you what was going on?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, but I would have just waited and just had a brief from Col Taylor or Col Botha at a later stage.  I was prepared to wait for that.

MR LAX: You see, Col Botha's evidence was that what the nature of the interrogation was, the answers were being given to him, he was asking for them.  He was being kept up to date with what was being asked and the answers that were given.  You don't recall that at all?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, perhaps he was dealing with Boshoff or van der Westhuizen, I don't know, but I wasn't expecting any English translations coming to me from any of the members.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Wasserman, you mention Boshoff, is it Basson or Boshoff?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, it's Basson Sir.

MR LAX: Did you have a colleague called Boshoff who was working with you at that time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, because both you and Mr du Preez have referred to a Boshoff.  We're just interested, I'm interested.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's Bossie, it's the nickname I think, it's both for Boshoff and ...

MR LAX: Yes, no he was Bossie Basson, I saw that in the papers.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's the reason.

MR LAX: Okay, fair enough.  So just to get back to the point I was on, you never heard anyone explaining anything to Capt Botha as he then was?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Sorry.

MR LAX: You see then I still don't understand why you went in and out.  Surely after the first or second time it would have been apparent to you that you didn't know what was going on?  Why keep going in and out?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, at any time maybe something important was said, then Taylor or, preferably Mr Taylor would have told me "right this is happening or that is happening."  He would have, I knew how he worked, he would have maybe wanted me in to listen to some names here, some addresses so I kept on coming in and out but nothing was addressed to me during that period.

MR LAX: Surely he would have called you if he wanted you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was either/or, Mr Lax, he could have called me or I would have just gone in and out.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there any reason for you not to have stayed all the time, Mr Wasserman?  Was there any reason why you couldn't just have stayed?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was a small room, there were many people, there were quite a few people inside the room, I seem to recall and I initially stayed there.  When I didn't understand much of what was going on, I would merely just leave.

ADV BOSMAN: And what did you do whenever you left?  What did you then do outside?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I had nothing to do outside, Mr Chairman.  I just would go and wait and let the operation progress.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry.  We realise you may have had nothing to do, but what did you actually do?  Did you wait outside?  Did you go and sit down?  Did you have a cup of coffee or did you just hang about?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, it wasn't long and I just hung about the sleeping and the tea area which is about 30/40 metres away.

MR LAX: Yes.  It's just that you hung about for roughly an hour with a few going ins and outs.  It's not exactly a short time.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, in this job you would hang about sometimes for a long time.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, I've intervened for quite a period now.  I'm sorry.

MR WILLS: Mr Wasserman, didn't you leave because you were absolutely repulsed by what was going on in that room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, that's not so.

MR WILLS: Weren't you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I was not.

MR WILLS: Weren't you repulsed by a woman being beaten with a sjambok?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't like it, however it was part and parcel of combating the military struggle that was going on at the time.

MR WILLS: Were you going in and out to get beers?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I was not Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Was there any drinking going on on the day in question?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: There was no drinking going on there, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, what did you actually see?  Tell us what you saw.  I know it's easy for you to say in your affidavit that you saw Taylor assaulting the deceased, but tell us what you saw with your own observation, forgetting about what's been said.  What can you recall today what you actually saw?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Ms Khubeka was sitting on the floor.

MR WILLS: How was she sitting?  Can you demonstrate to us?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: She was sitting on her haunches, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Please can you demonstrate, I don't understand that.  Would that be out of hand?  I'd like to see this Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see if we can get away with a description first and if we've got a difficulty maybe we can ask somebody to demonstrate.  Could you describe how she was sitting?  You say on her haunches.  I must say, I don't picture that clearly myself what sitting on the haunches is, but just explain.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman when I saw her she was sitting on her buttocks and her legs were straight out in front of her .

CHAIRPERSON: With her back at right angles.  She was sitting upright with her legs stretched in front of her, toes pointing up?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that, you don't need a demonstration of that, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No, that you, Mr Chairperson.  Than you for clearing that up.  And was she in this position on every occasion that you went in?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she was upright, in the upright position all the time, but I couldn't see her legs on every occasion.

MR WILLS: Where were they?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Sometimes I was at the door and the angle of sight would not allow me to see what was happening.

MR WILLS: Okay.  Continue.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Questions were being put to her.  The questions were all in Zulu and sometimes the voices were raised, sometimes the voices were quiet and Mr Taylor was beating her with a sjambok.

MR WILLS: How was he doing that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, he was, he held the sjambok by the end and he was whipping her with the sjambok.

MR WILLS: You see, Mr Botha wasn't 100% sure on how this assault took place.