Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MR PRETORIUS: The way we or I personally view it is that this person is applying for amnesty.  He puts out the reason why he shot at certain people - that is the most important thing regarding his application for amnesty.  If that is not the truth, it is our view that he can never get amnesty because he is not disclosing an extremely material fact to the Commission.
	Mr Zuma, are you aware of the fact that if this, your application to this Commission is successful, there are dependants whose breadwinners got killed that day, who will not be compensated for the fact that their breadwinners got killed?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Pretorius, that's not quite correct.  They'll be eligible for reparation if he receives amnesty in terms of the Commissions Reparations Policy.  It's not correct to say they won't be compensated so I don't think that's fair to put it that way.  They may not get an order in terms of an action for damages or something of that nature - that's quite correct but there is a reparations policy which is being promulgated quite soon and they will be eligible for that reparation so I think just put it more fairly.

MR PRETORIUS: Just so that I also understand Mr Honourable Member, the way I understand it - that reparation will only be to a small amount - it was only - it was mentioned, if I remember correctly, in the vicinity of R2000.

MR LAX: You're incorrect there Mr Pretorius, that's the interim, that is an interim urgent reparation.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that in fairness, Mr Pretorius, you're correct that the kind of compensation that the victim or the dependant of a victim would be entitled in a court of law is not the kind of reparation they are going to get, you're correct in that.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now, Mr Zuma, I then repeat it, are you aware that if your application is successful then the victims, more precisely the dependants of breadwinners who got killed on that day will not be compensated properly for the death of their loved ones?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Are you trying to imply that you are saying I'm lying just because of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question.  Are you aware that if you're granted amnesty it would frustrate their claim for damages for loss of maintenance and support?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: No I'm not aware.

MR PRETORIUS: I want to put it to you further that that is the case and more in particular, I want to refer you to one of my clients, Mr Alfred Mpanga, who is a quadriplegic, a young man that's a quadriplegic as a result of this shooting, that he will not be compensated properly for the damages that he received, are you aware of that?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: No, I'm not aware of that, no.

MR PRETORIUS: Now that he's brought to your attention, how do you feel about it?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I don't know if you know there were people killed in Shoboshabane in Natal in the South Coast by the IFP so I feel it's very bad you know, I mean I'm a human being as I have said in the beginning, when people are killed or injured I feel very bad for all the people, fifty four people were killed on that day, I feel bad for all those people including Mr Mpanga.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, you were never prosecuted up to now there's no indication that you're going to be prosecuted for what happened at Shell House, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I have not been prosecuted that is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: But one looks at your application for amnesty, more in particular on page 35 paragraph 13a, what you are very well aware of, as you completed it in your own handwriting, is that the reason why you seek amnesty is the ANC is being sued?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Sorry, can you show me, can you repeat the paragraph?

MR LAX: 13a on page 35.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Mr Pretorius, is it fair to question...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just read the question 13a and then read the answer which is "the ANC is being sued".  Just read that to yourself.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes I can read that.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, sorry Honourable Member of the Committee?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I was saying is it fair for you to put your question the way you have put it, to say that the reason why he is applying for amnesty is because the ANC is being sued?  It's quite clear that he is responding to a question which forms part of an application form that he's obliged to respond to?

MR PRETORIUS: As it pleases the Honourable Member, what I'm saying is that this particular witness wasn't prosecuted, he also wasn't sued, he is not sued in his personal capacity in any civil action so the only thing that is left is what he applied to in his own handwriting here and that is the only reason why he is seeking amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's not fair, look at the question, it says "are civil proceedings pending or envisaged?"

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, may I with respect, add to that?  That we object also to this line of questioning and that particular question.  The inquest court dealt with the deceased and only the deceased.  One does not know and Mr Zuma does not know what may yet emerge in respect of those who have been injured and whether or not that might not give rise to a proper basis for prosecution.  One does not know whether there may yet be a basis for civil liability of Mr Zuma himself and in any event, Mr Chairman, that can surely not be the touchstone for the granting of amnesty or the refusal of it.

MR PRETORIUS: I'll leave it at that Mr Chairman.  I've got not further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: ....[inaudible] and resume in fifteen minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: I have had a hurried consultation with Members of my Committee in the short time available to us in connection with the question raised by counsel for this witness, Mr Zuma.  We've looked through the Act and it does seem that the Act does not give us the power to order to press nor the media not to publish his photograph.  Our powers are limited only on the question of whether proceedings may be held in camera and then on disclosure of the identity of people who are giving evidence and regrettably I cannot comply with your request in that regard.  Other steps may have to be taken in connection with any measures that he may require to protect his personal safety.

MR TIPP: We understand Mr Chairman, we'll take it up with Mr Zuma at the conclusion of his evidence, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions that are to be put to this particular witness?

UNKNOWN: I have dealt with this witness on behalf of my clients, may it please the Committee.

MR HUMAN: There are a few questions, I will address them after Mr Dorfling, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: As the Chair pleases.  Yes Honourable Mr Chairman, we have indeed - it has been agreed that I should be conducting the examination next, as the Committee pleases.
	Mr Zuma, I'm acting on behalf of nine people that got injured at the corners of King George and De Villiers Street on the said day.   My questions would therefore relate to those specific people who are objecting to you being granted amnesty.  Do you understand that?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I do.

UNKNOWN: Can I first of all enquire from you where you are presently employed?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The V.I.P. Protection Unit.

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: V.I.P. Protection Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure it's very inconvenient for you to have to bend towards a witness, you've got to make eye contact with witness and the witness must make eye contact with whoever is questioning him and it is regrettable that you have decided to sit where you are.

MR NGCOB0: It was at our request Mr Chairman, we couldn't see his face.