Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Well would you then please explain to me why I read here in your statement, your affidavit at page 44 of Volume 1, it's the middle of the page the last sentence of that paragraph
"He was questioned and we were instructed to take him to Jeffrey's Bay".
is that a mistake?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I did not go to Jeffrey's Bay, we were given instructions but I did not go to Jeffrey's Bay.

MR VISSER: Are you quite sure of that?  Let me just make it absolutely clear.  There was an instruction given but you did not take Kondile to Jeffrey's Bay, is that what you are saying now?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I did not go and detain Kondile in Jeffrey's Bay, he was taken by Raath and Buzane.

MR VISSER: So you would not say to anybody we took him to Jeffrey's Bay, you wouldn't have said that to anybody, because you didn't?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I knew that Kondile was going to be detained in Jeffrey's Bay and then there were two policemen who were supposed to take him there and then I went home.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well you see at the top of page 45 I read in your affidavit,
"We took him to Jeffrey's Bay as arranged by du Plessis.  Kondile was detained".
Was that correct or is it wrong?

CHAIRPERSON: Could that not mean something else when they talk about "we" they talk about Security Police.

MR VISSER: That's why I asked him the question beforehand.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's just get to the gravamen of the matter, the real point.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I am giving you an honest answer I didn't go.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Now you gave us a period of time over which you say you were instructed to take part in the interrogation of Mr Kondile.  I don't want to talk about the period of time, I want to ask you, can you tell this Committee with some degree of certainty on how many occasions Mr Kondile was tortured as you explained in your presence by either yourself or anybody else, on how many occasions?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It is very difficult for me to tell you how many times because it was a lot of times.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now let me put to you that Mr Raath denies that he ever assaulted Mr Kondile, what do you say about that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He is a liar.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get anymore confusion, are you going to use the word "assault" or are you going to use the word "torture"?

MR VISSER: I am using the word "torture" Mr Chairman because that's the vernacular which he used.

CHAIRPERSON: No when you said "assault" that's why I am asking you.

MR VISSER: Did I say "assault"?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I meant to say "torture" I am terribly sorry.  Thank you for pointing that out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Let's just perhaps clarify this.  You're a policeman Mr Danster.  When you assault a person or when you torture a person you could do that by assaulting him, do you agree with me?

CHAIRPERSON: You could, on the other hand you can let him sit without sleeping, that would be ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: That's another form of assault of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let's get down to torture.

CHAIRPERSON: The point being made is that Mr Raath will say that he did not torture Kondile, what would you say to that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He lied to this Commission.

MR VISSER: What do you say, how did he exactly how did he torture Kondile, or can't you remember?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I do remember.  He was part of the people who were there.  Everything that was done Raath was part of that.

MR VISSER: But you can't specify to us today what you remember he personally did?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I told you in the morning.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now just in regard to the purpose of this torture.  I first understood your evidence to mean that Mr Kondile was reticent to give information which would satisfy Mr du Plessis and that's the reason why he was tortured, is that a correct summary of your evidence?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now at page 47 of your affidavit, towards the end of the page, two-thirds down, you refer to this, you said
"He refused to give certain vital information".
have you got that?  You see that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes I see that.

MR VISSER: But then you go on to say
"We wanted to turn him as an informer, he (Kondile) would blankly refused"
is what stands here.  And then you say -
"When the torture became more severe he started to become slightly more, perhaps more cooperative".
is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Cooperative, becoming more cooperative, does that mean that he then tended to start agreeing to become an informer is that what you are saying?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

MR VISSER: Must we then read this in the sense of cooperative of giving more information?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes that is so.

MR VISSER: But you see then Mr Danster I have a problem and perhaps you can help me, because you were asked quite clearly by the Chairman at one point in time and my learned friend Mr Booyens as to when the torturing of Mr Kondile ceased, when it stopped, do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: And one of the answers was that it stopped after you went up to Umtata - is this being translated?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the other was a few days before the other people left with Kondile to Komatipoort, you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes I hear you.

MR VISSER: Now the point here is this.  It would appear that the evidence or information which could be extracted or gained from Mr Kondile was in fact in the possession of his interrogators by the time they went to Umtata, would you agree with that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Partly, when you interrogate a suspect you don't stop totally.

MR VISSER: Let's - I am sorry, are you finished.  Let us just please stick with the question.  Do you agree or do you disagree that whatever information Mr Kondile was able to give to the Security police he had given by the time he went to point out the two people in Umtata?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He gave us information but when we came back we wanted more details from him.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might interrupt.  Were you, Mr Danster, in a position to ascertain when your seniors had had enough information or not, or were you working under instruction?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Chairperson you follow instructions when they say that you must stop then you do that.

MR VISSER: But let's not run away from the point, you made it quite clear that the torturing was done to extract information from Mr Kondile to satisfy Mr du Plessis, that's the point here.  I am asking you this, you have just disagreed, you said there was still further information that you wanted from him to verify or something like that, is that what you said, after you came back from Umtata?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We stopped asking questions from him before he went to Komatipoort when we were told to stop the investigation.

MR VISSER: You are not answering my question.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I think I have answered the question honestly.

MR VISSER: Well try again.  Was there any information which you know about that Mr Kondile could give after you had taken him to Umtata to point out the people in the bank?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now please tell us what that information was?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I told you in the morning that Capt du Plessis said that we must go to Komatipoort.

MR VISSER: Mr Danster there is no possibility that you can misunderstand such a simple question.  I am putting it to you that you are avoiding answering the question because you don't know what the answer is.
	There was nothing to be gained from further interrogating Mr Kondile after that time, in point of fact Mr du Plessis was quite clear in his evidence that Mr Kondile had commenced cooperating and he was working on turning him as an informer at the time.

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is not true.