Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: (sworn states)
Chairperson I'm sorry that I have to speak Afrikaans, you have very good interpreters, I listened with pleasure to them.  Before I start with my testimony, I want to refer to a report in the Beeld. I'm just going to give you a summary. It says that Brigadier Cronje testified yesterday that we we're the same people, I'm here to release them, and that two of his security policemen were locked up by me. 
 It's the Beeld, I know you can do nothing about it but I would like it to be put right.  We never, no prisoner was released by Jack Cronje but that was after I left, that was 1988, that was just before the election, Prince James is here, he knows that, and people were locked up just before the election and no security policeman was ever locked up.
 And then I want to refer to Fourie's murder, Hannes Fourie's murder. The witness now, Captain Kekana and the facts that he gave how the car was found, I was there that evening. That is not true. I just want to inform that to the Commission, his summary sits here, he was then a warrant officer, he was second in charge with hannes Fourie, and the facts given here are definitely not true.  So he is a bit confused.  That's something I just want to put right. Now I'm going to continue Chairperson.
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 Chairperson, I would very much have liked to sit in front of the audience.  I should so much have liked to have a photo of myself where I am listening to what the people are saying of me and I would so much have liked to have experienced the perception of myself, the audience see me as an aggressor, a cruel person and a person who is a racist. That is not who I am. I was an official who wanted to bring peace and wanted to maintain peace and order. I wanted to protect your lives and your property against arson, murder, against necklacing, I didn't want to do anything more or less, and could I please ask you today to break down this incorrect perception that you have of me and to see the real and true Hertzog Lerm.  Let's listen to the statistics concerning unrest in '86 '87, in Kwandebele, it was mostly politically motivated crime and this type of crime is very difficult to solve. You know that.  If we take the situation of Johan Heinz, that has not been solved.  Political murders are not easy to solve in South Africa, I don't know why, but you're aware of that.
 Then I want to refer you to the crime in 1986-87. 187 murders, we have that. 500 thefts, rapes 151, break-ins of houses 158. And then car vehicle theft, 158, then stock theft, also quite a large number and then serious assault, that is perhaps where police people assaulted people or where the two different people assaulted each other, more that 800.  And then we had a bomb scare or a bomb explosion where Piet Ntuli was murdered and then, well where people escaped, there were 44 who escaped and an attempted murder related to unrest, that was 100, 13 incidents of theft of weapons, ordinary theft 157, and then fraud, 58 and now this is the crux, 303 incidents of arson.  That's where shops MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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have been burned. And the worst one now, this is where for example, machinery has been burned, vehicles set alight, 
400, more than 400.  I come from Johannesburg, I worked
 there for many years, but this was terrible, and I would like to see what the statistics are now.  And then also, driving under the influence of alcohol, 30.
 And I will come back to the crime now. The detectives, we had five trained detectives, not junior detectives, a few black members and then also white, only five. They had 4 760 cases per year, now that is impossible to cope with. I went to pretoria, we didn't get any assistance, it was a great task and humanly impossible. And I also want to honour those detectives for investigating that number of cases.
 On 31 October '88 I left the police because I was forced to do that. Now you hear, all the people here were in fact chased away. The same applies to me. I was never a racist, I was never aggressive against anyone and my service period was in a period when black people didn't have any rights.  They had the pass law. I once compiled a report where I said that it is impossible, I referred to the Bill of Rights that was from England in those days and I referred to the fact that the people in South Africa don't have any rights, it's wrong, we have to catch more than 1000 people without passes and on criminal. And through tactical manoeuvres prevented, that people did not get political power. And during the last few decades the government was dependent on the police or security forces and also the state of security regulations. Now the GBS, there weren't any police procedures, it was military state of affairs, it's a Chinese system, it came from Taiwan, and covert operations, it was tried to legalise them, and black tribes MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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were divided, polarised, disinformation was the order of the day.  And communities who were in favour of the government were then  advantaged, but if you weren't in favour of the government, that's now the South African Government, then you were suppressed totally.
 Now state departments were taken along with this.  That's finance, I think it's only Justice that didn't have to go along, but all the other state departments had to work with this system.  And then this regional head of the police had to execute certain security regulations.  Now Chris van Niekerk, I took over his emergency regulations, that was implemented in June, so I just inherited that. That was a uniform system from Messina to Cape Town.
 The Homeland system of Kwandebele, you know that, I'm not going to refer to that anymore, and they had to become independent, come what may.  I don't want to talk politics, I have a degree in politics, they just wanted Kwandebele to become independent and the role players here, were Professor Simon Gouws, you've already heard his name, a friend an a previous colleague of Gerrit Viljoen. He was the student dean under Gerrit Viljoen and Gerrit Viljoen was the Rector of RAU.  Those two were very close.  Gouws was born in Ystervarkfontein Kwandebele.  He was involved here.  He was at primary school here, he showed me the primary school.  He has a lot of interest here, he wanted to become a minister here.  Not perhaps education but he really had interest here, and I'm going to implicate him here.
 He established the Kwandebele police force.  You will think it's a joke, Chairperson, but I'm going to tell you now and Prince James is aware of that, he subpoenaed the 
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previous government and then he said, and this is a subpoena, Prince James paid out the claim and I will tell you what he said in this subpoena, he said that the 
establishment of her own police force in Kwandebele, it's no one else, not van Niekerk, it's Gouws who says he did that and he said that the division from police and the state department, he established that, and then also from a security management system, he was involved with that. 
 This is a legal document served in front of the Court, and I have my witnesses here. Gouws is the person I want to refer to here, and then also Ben Stolz, he was the secretary of Works and he wanted to see this country independent, he was a Bantu Commissioner, he was an old magistrate.  Those are the role players.
 Now the role of Gerrit Viljoen.  Gerrit Viljoen was backed by two senior ministers, that was Adrian Vlok and Magnus Malan, and they were assisted by the deputy minister who was chairperson of the state security secretariat and they didn't report directly to the minister, but directly to Minister Botha, that was Mr Roelf Meyer to Vlok, that was after Vlok became minister and Roelf was there  when he was away, when I was still there and then Leon Wessels was there.   Those two gentlemen, you can ask them the same two questions, they have knowledge about this. They were involved with me in the state of emergency.
 For the incorporation of Moutse, and I want to criticise someone here, this is my opinion, I did some research with the incorporation of Moutse, there was a serious crises in the coherence of Kwandebele.  So they were then divided, they were peaceful, they were a unity, the Kwandebele people are lovely people, they are very cross MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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with me but I love them. They do lovely painting, bead work, but just listen what happened to them.
 And this created the right climate to get the Mahlangu 
Tribe  conflict.  Now two people are here today, and I had a lovely lunch with them this afternoon, it's Prince James and his Majose, those are two sons from one tribe, they studied together in Zululand, now what did they do?
 And their opposition then tried to get political power and this conflict led to a full-scale civil war.  Now the Moutse situation where they were incorporated illegally, now this led to it where the two brothers were now fighting against each other. Hundreds of people were necklaced and murdered and the economy was destroyed.  I covered this area with helicopters and it looked terrible. 
 Now these two conflicting parties were already established and they don't have to be ashamed about this, it's the Mokodos and then we have the comrades on the other side. Now the comrades were the younger people, the Mokodos
were the older people.  The South African Government, and this is the crux of the matter Chairperson, and I'm criticising the South African Government, the South African Government didn't want to intervene, and that's the truth. They didn't want to intervene and the security forces had to solve this problem.  Now we had to do it militarily.
 They could have negotiated this, they could have got the two people and said, well let's solve this, let's get peace, let's get an administrator here, but they said, no, the police must go in and assault and go wild.  Mr Piet Ntuli was murdered and I was sent there in haste and this is about the break of the trust between South Africa and Kwandebele.  Now the question is, who killed Piet Ntuli, and MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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the government knew and Johan Coetzee told me who had murdered him.
 And then there was a big problem between Louis Le 
Grange and a cabinet minister and Hertzog Lerm had to be thrown in to go and solve the problems.
 Chairperson, I was appointed here as a Commissioner in an illegal way, I was not seconded and a certificate had to be given to serve in a black situation.  He was not prepared to do that and I was on a plane and I had to come here, so I was never seconded.  
 And a period of service started with a state of emergency, I didn't work here as a policemen, I started here under the state of emergency on 4/8 and it ended in '88, and there was no room given for me to really administer the police or to manage it, I could never do it, because I didn't have detectives, I have more than 4 000 cases a year without detectives, the policemen have to run to and fro to look after schools, they took all the cars from all over, and put them at the schools because the state officials didn't have any vehicles. So the police had to use the civil service vehicles and there was no room for me, I mentioned that. I had a crises management here in a bloody war. And it was a war. And it was a civil war.
 This is not what I'm telling to you, I'm referring to Colleen McCleod, I'm referring to the book, The Struggle against Independence, I also refer to Hans Pienaar's book.  There was a civil war, let's say it to each other, the people are sitting here, they experienced it, it was terrible, it was terrible for me as well.  
 I really couldn't handle it, how brothers and family members kill each other. Law and order had to be maintained MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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and the peace of Kwandebele citizens have to be maintained in a state, it's not a real state, it went very bad here. 
 And I believe that there were covert operations and there were human rights violations, I believe that, if we 
say that there weren't any then we are lying because that was the case. President de Klerk in his submissions admitted to covert operations, that it was allowed in South Africa in the Homelands and the actions of Prince James and Majose, they also acted covertly. Prince James lets his house be burned down, the other one lets the other house be burned down, they were doing it to each other.
 Chair person, according to the household advertiser and I want to object to this, I can say to you for sure, and you know what stands in this newspaper, I know that people cry, but I can also cry, you have to listen to what this newspaper says, it's the Highveld Advertiser of 1995, it was distributed here in Mpumalanga, I don't know whether it still exists, it says,
" The controversial South African Top Pop brigadier",
I did not know I was a top pop, I thought I was a dumb policeman, 
"Brigadier Hertzog Lerm who is allegedly responsible for loss of lives of over 500 in Kwandebele in '86 and over 100 in Moutse, was the force behind the power of the Mpinivepekwe",
these are the kitskonstabels,  (end of side A)
It's a lie, I walk down here and I and I don't want to mention the person's name but this journalist told me, "Brigadier, is that your helicopter?".  I almost thought that she thought that I became a millionaire with my golden MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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handshake that I can now in fact afford a helicopter to fly here, I'm a poor policeman.
 So I'm mentioning this, this is a perception that was created, that I got a lot of money in Kwandebele, here the 
people are sitting, I didn't get a cent from them.
Chairperson, I just quoted that, I'm continuing. That's the greatest lie and I repeat it, and I would like if a person says to me and I would want to look him in the eye and we have to take each other's hand, I was never involved in any torture. I know what torture is. I grew up in the police force, I know what torture is. In the old days there was a lot of torturing. In the old days a detective didn't say and or light a cigarette, what they did was send a letter from Pretoria that the detective had to question people.  When I came to the police in '55 they actually assaulted people to get them to talk, I'm not ashamed to say that, I'll say it again, but that was stopped.
 Then commissioner said, no that's not the way that you question people, it's a foolish person who beats a person to get information. A person who understands doesn't hit another person to get information.  Sir I want to deny it very strongly, I never murdered a person, I never planned assassination. I've never abducted any person and I was an old person when I came here, I just look as young as I do but I couldn't have assaulted or abducted people, it must have been the young people, they must have done that without mentioning it.  But you must remember that this is not true, I want to confirm this. I was never guilty of any crime, although I am not personally, I do not accept personal responsibility.  For example if the Captain de Jager now  says that he assaulted a person, I'm not going to accept, MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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well I will accept responsibility for that, I Commissioner, if I sleep in my bed if a constable throws a stone at someone or shocks him, I'm responsible, I have to call him in or I have to take steps against him, that is my 
responsibility and I will accept responsibility for that.
 They were only a small police force, remember they were but a handful, we had 800 year to year but they were not our policemen, they were sent here to enforce with their own commanding officers, we had a mere handful.  I want to be honest with you, we couldn't have policed 10 000 people, that's how small we were and you know, according to statistics, I think there were approximately 800 000 people including Moutse.  They worked under difficult and dangerous circumstances, and they had to control instigators, they had to combat terrorism and so forth and I would like to say to you, and I think that a lot of my policemen sitting here today, they are high ranking officers in Mpumalanga and I'm very proud of them.  I would like to say I'm proud of them and I want to say to them, I accept no responsibility for the hundred policemen that came in here under the command of their own commanding officers and I do not accept responsibility for the acts of the Security Branch, that has got nothing to do with me, you mustn't ask me about them, they worked under their own commanding officer, under General Muller under Pretoria, and at Police Headquarters and the Security at Headquarters, was under General van der Merwe. And breaches of trust between gouws and the other parties, that led to my transfer to Durban, You know I wasn't transferred because these people said, "No he's a bad person, I was transferred because Professor Gouws said that I should be transferred, because he and the Chief Minister MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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did not get along.
 When I allowed myself to be misused by Professor Gouws and Viljoen, it wasn't enough, and I'd like to say that I was misused, I was sent on a plane from here to go and talk to Dr Viljoen and General Coetzee in Cape Town, hundreds of times about the security situation and I would have to go with and say what the situation was like because it was about independence and President Botha made two demands, firstly that there had to be invisible support in this section and that there had to be stability here. And for that I always went down to Cape Town, although I never spoke to President Botha face to face.
 Approximately 17 days thereafter I went to Durban and you were talking to somebody, there's my wife, they sent me down to Durban and I had to work with Indians in Durban and 17 days later I was told that I'm going to Soweto, and 17 days later I'm told that I can't speak to any leaders, I was told, "You are hereby told that with immediate effect you are not to liaise with any official in Kwandebele or any independent or self-governing state."    That means all the states, I couldn't speak to them, I couldn't liaise with them, I could not have discussions with them or contact them in any way. And I could not disobey that in any way, and that I had to sign in front of Minister Vlok.
 Why would they say I could not liaise with any of the nine independent states. They knew what they were doing because they knew I could speak to the people and I would do that because I wasn't afraid to do so, and I am not a racist and I could do that.  They said that I was a threat and I want to say that I was not transferred because of what I did but because I could speak to the people.
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 Mr Chairperson, I was transferred to Soweto by Vlok and this prohibition was that, because I refused to accept it, because I said to him, "How can I go to Soweto, prince James and his people are in Soweto.  Your elections were there", and at the time all the chiefs of these homelands were there, how could I go and stay there if I was such an 
oppressor, and I decided to resign, to take early retirement, and then I was, understand I was intimidated.  I was intimidated by the Security Police.  They phoned my house when I received a medal from President Botha, the sought after, Southern Cross medal, they phoned me at 8 o'clock, they phoned me to say that it's been postponed to 11 o'clock, whereas the ceremony took place at 10 o'clock, and I phoned there and I asked them and they said, "No we never phoned, you have to be here at 10 o'clock".  We drove to Port Edward, the holiday resort there, we got there late at night, my wife and I and my daughter, and I was told, "But you cancelled your reservation, your son phoned yesterday to say that you were ill, you weren't coming any longer".  And I phoned and I investigated and I found out that it was Security Police, and I will tell you why the Security Police intimidated me, I'm not afraid to tell you that. We'll get to that now.
 My family and I suffered harassment, the reason for that was because they were afraid that I would report their criminal deeds.  You can see, Vlok is in Middelburg, he was involved in the corpses that were blown up in the murder people in  Nelspruit, you can see where Cronje and Hechter are. I also knew about that.  And if you know too much, you yourself know about that, you know what happens to people that know too much.
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 After investigations by General Basie Smit, that Cronje prosecuted, Cronje was also here and Basie Smit came and followed up on that, and then there were things said about Ntuli's death and then they attacked Basie Smit as the newcomer and they told him, "You've just got here now, why don't you people solve the mystery about Ntuli's death?", 
yes they knew who committed the act, and that is where President Botha appointed the Parsons Commission and I'm going to read it to you.
 After that appointment of the Parsons Commission and before it functioned, there was a change of government in Kwandebele.  While the Crossland Commission was appointed, they were requested by the previous minister, Majoze, he went to attorneys in Pretoria and they told him "You are not competent to appoint a Commission, I will do that."  In any event it was done and when the Commission started sitting, Prince James was in government. The Commission sat for four years and in four years, I would like to say to you it was politically involved.  They were also politically involved.
They really affected me and it made a finding on untested and published false allegations. It was a total political ploy to discredit me and I would like to say to you that if that they heard that I was to appear here, the previous commissioner who was involved in all the corruption, would take all their shots and they would say that here's the corrupt commissioner, here.  
 And that is why I'm here today, I want this set right.  This is what Parsons did. It was a political ploy against me in order to discredit me and with the aim of discrediting me in the eyes of black people. They succeeded by using the press, because the press loves to exaggerate, and when MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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President F W de Klerk came to the fore with his new initiative, I asked for restitution and I wrote him a letter.  Here it is and he acknowledged receipt thereof and at that stage he was busy with negotiations and my request was on the table of the Commissioner of Police with no results.
 Chairperson I would like to ask that my rights also be set straight. I lost thousands of rands, also my reputation. After my retirement in 1988, the Chief Minister offered me a senior post which I declined.  He wanted me to come back to Kwandebele where I retired and he can also tell you that I declined.  This is what this whole matter is based on. The police were unwittingly involved in politics as a result of State interaction.  We operated within the parameters of our duties because of the political leadership of the day and all the consequences which were attached thereto.  This is the right time for the previous regime which got us involved in that arena to come to the fore and take moral responsibility for all immoral acts and strategies.  
 I would also like to commend the thousands, you must listen, the thousands of maids, the wives who worked in our houses us whites and who cared for our children as mothers in our absence. You fought the struggle with us and often paid a very high price.  If it was not for the mothers that worked in the white homes about 1960, then already we would have had a revolution, but the maids were in our homes, these are the mothers, they loved us, they raised our children and I would like to pay tribute to them here today.
 Chairperson, I would like to say something about 
myself, I am a community leader in Warmbad, I am a religious person and I am an elder in the Dutch Reformed Church and I MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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was also a higher elder.  I was also a chairperson at the magistrate's court in Warmbad, I am the lead chairperson of the Community Development Forum. I am a member of the Community Policing Forum and I was the chairperson in the Warmbad area for a few years.
 Up until 1995, I was the mayor of the larger Warmbad
area and would like to read a letter written by Doctor Bata from Transkei which he wrote to me in about 1973 riots at Fort Hare.  I brought this with me just so that you could hear what Bata said, he was a doctor in Kings Street in Butterworth.  Listen to what he has to say.
"I learned from my son that you are at the police station in the afternoon and one of the things you did for the students, was to ask them if they had anything to eat and you ordered that food must be brought to them.  I am thanking you from the bottom of my heart, indeed I commend you for that.  As a matter of fact the students, including my son have the highest regard for you as a man."
You can investigate it, it is here.
 Chairperson, I would like to conclude, now you have to give me an opportunity please, I would like to conclude with the following extract from Psalm 30.
"Remain our light, through this darkness you remain our Lord.  Black as the night where we are wanderers, you remain our Lord.  You show the way.
 We would like to follow you for ever, whoever you may lead, we will follow you faithfully".
I thank you Chairperson.