Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: We, it was discussed the whole Volkstaat idea and that there would be a security group formed and we would be involved in that and that we would also have to do certain operations.

ADV BOSMAN: But except for the Volkstaat idea and that you would carry it together, were other further operations discussed at the Order Meeting.  Were there any other discussion with regards to operations?

MR LE ROUX: I think at that stage, I cannot remember exactly what the agenda was, Commandant Fourie was there but it's very possible that it was discussed.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not expect of you to remember all the detail after such a long time Mr Le Roux, I would just like to know, to put it simply, was there talk about bomb explosions etc?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: You mentioned that you differed from Barnard with regards to the choice of targets.  Can you indicate to us what was the basis of these differences were, with regards to what aspects did you differ?

MR LE ROUX: I would have chosen a power station or something similar as a target.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Barnard tell you why he did not want that to be the case?

MR LE ROUX: No he did not say, he only said that he had an instruction to bomb the targets as he indicated.

ADV BOSMAN: And now the meeting you attended of General Constand Viljoen, which date was that, how long before these incidents?

MR LE ROUX: I think February/March Chairperson, 1994.

ADV BOSMAN: So it's round about two months before the incidents?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just a last question, maybe you did deal with it, maybe I'm asking you again but it would seem as if the leadership of the AWB is very hesitant to come to the front.  You were very unsure about who would come and testify for you here.  Did you discuss this amongst yourselves why this is the case?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson I wanted the leader here, I also asked him to be here but he did not come Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: I used the word leadership or leader's corp.  Except for Terreblanche, what about Prinsloo.  It would seem as if the Generals in general are very hesitant to come to this commission.  Did you discuss this with your co-applicants?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson, the basic idea is that the revolution was lost in 1994 and now they cannot suddenly come forward with new different things, they wouldn't gain anything from that.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes but it could help you Mr Le Roux, that's problematic for me.

MR LE ROUX: I agree with you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: You did make mention of the fact that you wrote a letter to Mr Terreblanche?

MR LE ROUX: The little organisation which we founded and gave a name to amongst ourselves, we addressed three letters to him.  It was before the cut off point of the amnesty.  One was for the ABW's leader, the one was to General Constand Viljoen and the other one to the AWB leader and there was asked them to please submit their amnesty applications so that they can testify for us in order to give us assistance because we knew that they were part of the whole process.

ADV BOSMAN: Did none of them react?

MR LE ROUX: The only one who reacted was General Constand Viljoen.  He also wrote me a letter and I have the letter here today Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry just let me repeat the question.  What was his response?

MR LE ROUX: He ensured us that he would mention our names in his amnesty application and the amnesty applications would be submitted and that the papers would make it public what his plans were at that stage and that we could use that.  He also presented it as such Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there a follow up.  Did Constand Viljoen mention your group in any of his applications?

MR LE ROUX: That which I picked up on our radio stations etc, he did mention our names.

ADV BOSMAN: And did you try and make contact with General Prinsloo?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: In which way did you make contact with him?

MR LE ROUX: A while ago he came to visit us in Leeukop Prison.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell him that he must come and help as your superiors?

MR LE ROUX: I did tell him that.

ADV BOSMAN: What was his reaction?

MR LE ROUX: He said that they will do everything within their power, we shouldn't be worried.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you talk to him about the question of evidence?

MR LE ROUX: I wanted him to be here Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ask him General you mustn't do this behind people's backs, you must come here and give evidence?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I stressed that in my letters and every time I emphasised the fact that he was involved, he was part of the plan, please come and appear here.

ADV BOSMAN: And this is my last question and it is about General Prinsloo, did you emphasise to Prinsloo that you wanted him to testify for you?

MR LE ROUX: I asked them to come and give evidence Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Let us stay with General Prinsloo.

MR LE ROUX: I asked him Chairperson, personally.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was his answer to that?

MR LE ROUX: He said that we shouldn't be worried.  I cannot remember his exact words, but it came down to the fact that we shouldn't be worried because they will appear for us.  The leader of the AWB also promised that he would be here yesterday Chairperson and he did not appear.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  If you just look at page 57 of Volume 1, paragraph 12?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: My understanding of that and please correct me if I am wrong, is essentially that those members of the AWB who participated in this resistance would become part of this Boere Afrikaner Volkstaat Police?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now my question is, is that what motivated you to go up to Ventersdorp (1) and (2) is that what motivated you further to make sure that everybody knew you were participating in something so that you could then become part of this Boere Afrikaner Volkstaat Police?

MR LE ROUX: This was part of my motivation and I realised that we've got work to do there and that we could make an existence out of that, so it was part of the motivation Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And you don't think this amounts to any kind of personal benefit.  You know you were really looking at what you could get out of this thing, you personally, more than being married to the idea of your Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: No in my business I made much more money than I would ever have received there so I wouldn't have gained any benefit from that Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but you see you didn't sell that business, you simply shut it down and you kept that on the back burners so to say?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Why was that if you were really uprooting yourself and your family to go and fight for your cause and live in an area that would be part of who you were?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know what the future held during that time.  We took our guesses and we acted according to them.

ADV GCABASHE: Now a related question comes back to the issue of leaving home and as I understand your evidence, you were going there to form part of this general resistance that you had been called up to come and become part of?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And again, as I understand your evidence, at the stage that you left your home, there was nothing about stopping the elections as such, going up to stop the elections, you were there so that you could gather and ensure that you had a piece of ground that you would call your Volkstaat where you would live in peace as a Volk?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.