Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I'd like just to continue to deal with the allegations as they were presented this morning.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I think what I should do, is deal with some of the issues that I had in my original statement and then I'll, I can deal with what is being said here.  I repeat that I do not know these two gentlemen, nor did I know the gentleman from, who made the allegation in Queenstown, Mr Yoyo.  I've never, I've never seen them in my life before.  Mr Chairman, I joined the Police Force in 1947.  1949, I became a detective and my duties as a policeman was to keep law and order in this country, in accordance  with the existing laws.  At no time did I consider that I should not take steps against those who broke the law, merely because they were fighting against the injustices of the apartheid laws.  I want that clear.  That was my duties at the time and when that did become an issue, I resigned from the Police Force. In other words, at a later stage in my life, I realized that in fact it was affecting me  and I resigned.  With regard to where I was and now at 66.  I think, let me start off  by saying that I, because I was, I was, I'm  a  Xhosa linguist, I  was sent  by the  Commissioner of Police  to  various
places, throughout the country, and I must say, I think I was successful  with regard to the cases I handled.  I handles cases in Port Elizabeth, I handled cases in Cape Town, in Durban, Pretoria and Johannesburg.  I was very well known amongst all the political people in this country.  In fact I also gave evidence in the Rivonia trial, so I know my name was bandied about quite a lot and I can also say that there were times when I was in other parts of the country, that allegations were made against me and it was obviously a mistaken identity.  I want to say right now, Mr Chairman, that I don't deny what these gentlemen are saying, maybe they were assaulted, but whatever the case is, it's mistaken identity.  I was definitely not here.   I have never worked in King William's Town.  There's a possibility and the odd time that I passed through here.  I want to say that I didn't work with Charles Sebe.  I went with him on one occasion, I was involved with him.  We went to Robben Island in connection with ANC matters and not PAC matters.  I went with him to Robben Island and we came back together, but I never worked with Charles Sebe here in King William's Town.  Gert Hattingh and I worked together on a sabotage case at Alice, where a pole was cut and at that, while we were together, he became a, well lets call him a confident of mine and he told me how he had smashed Allan Paton's car windows up at Hogsback.  From that day, Mr Chairman, we were in two different camps.  We never sat together and there was no ways that I would have been involved with Hattingh after that, in fact, Mr Chairman, we involved in a Supreme Court case, because of that issue.  I want to point that if these gentlemen, if somebody had said it was, it was Donald Card? and they are mentioning the name Donald Card?, it's from someone mentioning my name, but not me in person.  65,  you know, it's very difficult now for me to, to, to sort of recollect.  I went  through  old  papers, in  fact  I'd  given my attorney documents and they're not really proper documents, they're documents from newspapers, giving dates of where I was up until about 1964-65, so I haven't been able to get all that sorted out now, but in 1965, Mr Chairman, I was involved when a PAC member, who was operating from Maseru, came back into this country and I arrested him and through information I got from him, I dealt with a lot of issues in Cape Town.  I was in Cape Town quite a lot.  I was in East London., I dealt with certain issues there.  That was 65.  66, Mr Chairman, end of '65, '66, there were two gentlemen who were trying to reorganize the ANC organization throughout this country and I was involved in those cases, but I want to repeat, not in King William's Town.  I did not ever operate from King, I did not come from East London to operate in King, I came from East London to operate in Port Elizabeth, Cape Town, Johannesburg, Pretoria and Durban, but never in .. oh yes, and once in Alice.  I was in Alice in March , 1963 when the pole was cut down there, but never in King William's Town and if those gentlemen say that I, that I assaulted them, definitely a mistaken identity.  I didn't do it and I want to say, Mr Chairman that if I did do it, I would have been the first one to come to this Commission, to the Truth Commission and asked for amnesty.  I would have asked for amnesty because, what did I, what would I lose by  asking for amnesty.  I would have come.  I've asked for amnesty in another matter, but I would have come if there was any reason for me to come.  I could never, Mr Chairman, ask for amnesty when I know I'm not guilty.  I cannot associate myself with anything like that.  I'm innocent, I'm going through pain because of the innocence in sitting here to-day.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Card?.  Mr Clarke does that conclude your matter for now ?  We are going to be raising  a few questions from  our side, and we thank  you  for
your submission.  We have noted the comments that you have made, preliminary comments raising the discrepancy in terms of the statement originally, statement.... oral evidence which has been led here and will apply amongst that.  Questions ?  Mr Sandi ?

MR SANDI: Thank you,  Mr Chairman.  There is an old saying, Mr Card? that says, dead men tell no tales.  I noticed that in your submission, you mentioned two names and that is, Mr Hattingh and Mr Sebe.  I understand both men have since deceased.  Is that correct?
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I didn't mention them, they were mentioned by the statements that I got and I actually said that unfortunately, they are dead, otherwise they could have come here to tell this Commission what the story was, cause they could have said I wasn't here.  Now I never... I haven't mentioned them.  They were mentioned by the  previous gentlemen.

MR SANDI: In your affidavit ....
MR CARD?: In my statement I have mentioned Maynard and Baba Goosen, the two gentlemen, I worked with all the time over that period.

MR SANDI: And they are both dead ?
MR CARD?: No, no, no, they're alive.  No, no, I.. the, the people that are dead, the mention Hattingh was associated to me by these two gentlemen and Charles Sebe are dead but I still believe that the officer in charge of the security at that stage, is still alive, he's in Pretoria, but the gentleman who was in charge of me, who was an ordinary criminal investigation department..., he's dead.  That was Colonel Heydrech.