Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR VISSER: You see, the point that I want to ask you is this, Col Taylor was senior to Mr Hentie Botha and there are indications that both Taylor and Botha gave instructions in regard to the penetration and infiltration of this KwaMashu cell, would you be able to deny that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not dispute that because I did not know.

MR VISSER: You see, and I was going to put this to Mr Mbane as well, but what we saw yesterday Chairperson, in the diary of the docket, of the police docket, are notes taken by - I thought I had the name here, by somebody of a consultation of Mr Jimmy Mbane, and Mr Mbane says, according to these notes, and I will ask him when he gives evidence, that Taylor told him apparently, to go and fetch Kubheka and take her to the beach.  Mr Taylor told him that.  Could that be correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I remember that I used to get instructions from Hentie Botha, but I did not see Col Taylor.  Even if he was there, I would not be surprised.

MR VISSER: You wouldn't be surprised.  You see, the point is, Mr Botha gave evidence to say that the abduction of Kubheka was a mistake, it jeopardised the whole operation of infiltration into her cell in order to find out who the MK Commanders were.  He said it was a mistake to have abducted her.  What do you say of that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is correct Chairperson, that if we took her and did not reveal that information, because she was now aware that those people who pretended to be comrades were lying.

MR VISSER: Yes, well see that's the point, that's exactly the point.  Can I just tell you what the evidence was, Mr Radebe, and then you can tell the Committee whether you agree with this.  Botha gave evidence to say that particularly Mr Mbane, was given instructions to infiltrate this operation that was run by Ms Kubheka and that a long time, about six weeks went by in which Mbane wasn't able to come forth with information about where MK infiltrators were in Durban.  Do you remember anything like that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Is it possible that it did happen?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't know, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And Botha then gave evidence to say that he became anxious and he told Mr Mbane that at a certain day he must bring, he must see to it that he will bring the MK Commander of a group of MKs in Durban, I think there were four that had infiltrated, but he must bring the Commander in his car to Battery Beach, so that he could be arrested.  Do you know of such an instruction from Botha?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And as I've put to you before, he says that when they pounced on the car they found Kubheka there and not the MK Commander, and that was a mistake.  As far as you're concerned, you say - well, what do you say?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I knew that initially we were given instructions that we should go and fetch her, because we were given instructions to do so.

MR VISSER: You understand what I'm putting to you, I'm putting to you that it wasn't Botha that gave you those instructions, but it could have been Mr Taylor, and you said you don't know.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Right.  Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you yourself, are you saying - I just want to get this clear Mr Visser.
	Are you saying you can't remember who gave you instructions, or are you saying it may have been Taylor?  Because what's confusing me is because you said that as far as you were concerned, Taylor was on leave and you didn't see him.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I did not see Taylor.  I never heard anything from him or about him.  I did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you the instruction to fetch Ms Kubheka?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We informed Joe Coetzer to tell Botha that that woman is starting to be suspicious and therefore we will not be able to continue because our lives would be in danger.

MR LAX: Yes, but you still haven't said who gave you the instruction.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We sent Joe Coetzer to Mr Botha and Mr Botha replied, or responded by saying we should go an fetch her.

MR LAX: Who did he reply that through, through Coetzer, through Ras, personally?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Coetzer, I still remember that we were playing with his pellet gun, he was teaching us to aim using his pellet gun to shoot the packet of cigarettes.  So I remember he's the one that came with the response that we should go and fetch her.

MR LAX: And you're clear that that response was via Botha to Coetzer to you?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that actually clarifies what I was trying to clarify.  Thank you.
	So can I ask you this, you were also in Durban during February 1987, can you remember that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well you see in February 1987, there was a person killed in Durban, Mr Stanley Sipho Bhila.  Can you remember whether you had anything to do with that incident?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You see, that person was picked up and abducted from a Kentucky Fried Chicken venue in KwaMashu.  Do you know anything about that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And he was taken also to Winkelspruit and from Winkelspruit he was taken away and he was eliminated and his body thrown over a cliff.  Now the reason why I mention this to you is that it's quite clear to me, with respect, that Mr Mbane at least, is confusing these two incidents and I was just wondering whether you're not also suffering from some confusion between these two incidents.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was not present on that one.

MR VISSER: And I'll tell you why you see, because the evidence so far in the case of Ms Kubheka, is that she was actually abducted from Battery Beach and taken by Wasserman and Botha and others, du Preez, to Winkelspruit, whereas Mr Mbane says that he took her to Winkelspruit after having abducted her from the Kentucky Fried Chicken in KwaMashu.  Am I correct?  I see there are shakes of heads that I am incorrect, perhaps I haven't got it quite right.  Let me just check on that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: The evidence also is that she was brought to Battery Beach, having already been taken by other people in a vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not forcibly abducted though.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) been induced into a vehicle, she was taken to Battery Beach and then there was a fairly elaborate sort of abduction, people with guns and approaching cars from different directions and that sort of thing.

MR LAX: Exactly.

MR VISSER: I'm not quite sure what I said that is different from that, Chairperson, because Mbane's evidence as I remember it, is that he took her from KwaMashu to Winkelspruit, he didn't take her to the beach.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean his statement, not his evidence, he hasn't testified.

MR VISSER: No, no, well his statement.  Sorry, statement.  Am I correct in that, because that's my recollection Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, Mr Visser, I wouldn't like to challenge you as I sit here now.

MR LAX: The point I was simply making was that she was brought to battery beach, that's even the evidence of the applicants who have testified already, and then some sort of "abduction"  was staged at that point.

MR VISSER: Yes, that's right.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'm putting to this witness now, Chairperson, as I understand what Mr Mbane's going to say, is that he took her from KwaMashu to Winkelspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: Without going to Battery Beach?

MR VISSER: Without going to Battery Beach.

MR SAMUEL: ;   If I may assist.  I don't think that is going to be the evidence, I don't know where that evidence comes from.