Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR MEIRING: No. I was on standby that weekend at work and I could not leave town.

MR PRINSLOO: Thus you do not have any knowledge regarding that incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon me what is your answer?

MR MEIRING: I was on standby Chairperson, I could not leave town.

MR PRINSLOO: But the question honourable Chairperson is that he does not have any knowledge regarding what happened at that meeting?

MR MEIRING: No I do not know anything about what happened at that meeting.

MR PRINSLOO: During December 1995 Oogonia Terreblanche the leader of the AWB and other senior officers of the AWB visited the prison?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened there?

MR MEIRING: Commander Phil Kloppers asked Mr Terreblanche if he could speak to him seeing as there were rumours going around that we had acted without instructions and that we had behaved like errand children. Upon which Mr Terreblanche said to Mr Kloppers: "Well if everybody had done what they should have done that night you would not be in prison today."

MR PRINSLOO: Could you deduce from the behaviour of Mr Terreblanche and his co-officers that he disapproved of your conduct on that night?

MR MEIRING: No. It definitely appeared to me that he had knowledge of our conducts and that he had approved of it.

MR PRINSLOO: Currently, are you still a member of the AWB?

MR MEIRING: Yes I am still a member of the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: And the application which you have made which appears on page 68 of the bundle, you are aware of your application that you completed? Do you confirm this?

MR MEIRING: Yes I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you confirm the events which occurred in terms of your application?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you confirm the motivation for your acts?

MR MEIRING: Yes I confirm this.

MR PRINSLOO: As far as you are concerned at that point was there any other method, other than violence which the AWB could have implemented that evening to prevent the ANC/SACP Alliance from winning the elections in the national party government?

MR MEIRING: There was no other option but violence.

MR PRINSLOO: The elections took place on the 27th of April, that was 5 months later?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So therefore the election was directly involved in it?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The reason why those people were killed that night, what did you understand behind the reason for the killing?

MR MEIRING: We committed these acts in order to attempt to topple the NP government of then and bring about chaos. We were trying to cause as much of a panic situation as possible in order to postpone the elections.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt?

UNKNOWN: Mr Meiring, you committed the act and you testified that you believed that the revolution had begun. Do you know of any bomb explosions which occurred directly after that?

MR MEIRING: Yes there were bomb explosions in Krugersdorp and in Pretoria West.

UNKNOWN: What did you think about that?

MR MEIRING: I thought that the revolution was still under way.

UNKNOWN: And it is also so that bomb explosions took place until a few days before the elections in places like Braamfontein and Pretoria and those people who had planted the bombs and detonated the bombs there were all AWB members?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What did you think of that?

MR MEIRING: I still thought that the revolution was under way.

UNKNOWN: No further questions thank you.

UNKNOWN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink? Oh I am sorry. Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Meiring I am putting my questions to you in english but please answer in afrikaans. Is it correct that the ideology of the AWB is based on Christian principles and more particularly Calvinistic principles?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Because I read this you see in this document which was drawn up by General Oelofse and I refer specifically to page 25. So any way it is common cause that the AWB, the ideology is based on Christian principles, more particularly Christian national principles and again Calvinistic principles. Is that, that is true?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And is it correct that all members of the AWB no matter what their seniority must abide by this aspect of AWB policy? That is to live a good Christian life?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And you regard the Bible as being the absolute word of God?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: But God said: "Do not kill." What do you say to that?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And do you agree that Sunday is a holy day in the Christian religion?

MR MEIRING: Saturday is my holy day Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Is it is the, what church do you belong to if I may ask?

MR MEIRING: I am from the Israel Truth.

MR BRINK: Alright, were you before a member of the Dutch Reformed Church or Die Herformde Kerk?

MR MEIRING: Previously I was a member of the Reformed Church.

MR BRINK: So you agree that for Christians, Sunday is a holy day, people go to Church? They pray to their Lord? Do you agree with that?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: On the day of the incident what Church were you?

MR MEIRING: At that point I did not attend any Church.

MR BRINK: Were you then not surprised that an order should come from a senior member of the AWB to go out and kill people on a Sunday?

MR MEIRING: Chairperson I did not doubt the instructions. I simply carried them out.

MR BRINK: My question was; were you not surprised Mr Meiring?

MR MEIRING: No it did not surprise me.

MR BRINK: I may have misheard you but are you still a member of the AWB?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And do you therefore still believe that what happened on that night, that horrible murderous night was justified?

MR MEIRING: At that point we were in a state of war. The situation has changed and I do not think that anything like that will ever happen again.

MR BRINK: I would like you to answer my question. Do you think that what happened on that night was justified, thinking about it now as a member of the AWB? Either it was justified or it was not justified?

MR MEIRING: Thinking back now then it was justified at that time because it was in a state of war.

MR BRINK: What do you feel about it now?
(PROBLEM WITH MICROPHONES)

MR BRINK: Isn't the situation that the group of you decided to go on a murdering spree without any orders whatsoever from senior AWB officers?

MR MEIRING: I acted on instruction from Commander Martin and Chief Commander Kloppers.

MR BRINK: Isn't the truth the matter that all of you were to a great or lesser extent under the influence of liquor?

MR MEIRING: No. One cannot get drunk from one whisky.

MR BRINK: Were you present in court when Mr Matthews gave evidence? And I refer the Committee to page 26 of the 2nd bundle.

MR MEIRING: Yes I was present.

MR BRINK: Would you like to have a look at the section, the judgment which I am about to read out? Accused number 1 was Matthews, is that so?

MR MEIRING: Yes that was him.

MR BRINK: Accused number 8 was Andre Visser?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And accused number 9 was Kloppers?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And number 6 was Martin?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR BRINK: In page 26 of the judgment. Do you have it in front of you?

MR MEIRING: Yes I do.

MR BRINK: Can you just read from there, it is the 2nd complete paragraph, it starts with accused number 1, that is Matthews he mentions, just read that to us please?