Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible - mike not on) is to call Pitso, because he was commanding, according to the first applicant, he was commanding in this operation and the instruction, the order was given direct to him and they were taking orders to him.  He's going to testify that they were indeed given an order by Dlogodlo and testify about Dlogodlo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Peleo, is that your surname?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: That is my surname, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I saw somewhere in the papers there's Petrus, you don't use that name?  I want to get your full names like you would have them in your identity document.

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Peleo, can you tell the Committee to which organisation do you belong, political organisation?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: It's AZANYU.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join AZANYU?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: In 1990.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Before that, did you belong to any political organisation or did you follow politics?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: I was a member of the Self Defence Unit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When was that?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: In 1985 until 1988.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who recruited you into AZANYU?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: It's Comrade Lebohang Mehi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, there is a person mentioned by Mr Tuis by the name of Dlogodlo.  Can you tell the Committee about Dlogodlo?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: Dlogodlo was an APLA Commander here in the Free State.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you first meet him?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: I first met him in 1993.  He was together with Tabiso Makwala asking for accommodation on his behalf.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Exactly when in 1993?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: It was in January, but I do not recall the date.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Then what happened?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: Tabiso said he wanted me to accommodate him and he told me that he was the Commander of APLA in the Free State.  I welcomed him.
	On the second or the third day he explained to me that he was here, he came to see me on a purpose, he wanted to send me out with two or three comrades to go and attack the farmers and he said my Task Force  - I should choose two Africans from the Task Force who would go with me to attack.  I chose Samson and Macdonald because there were the Africans I know and they were with me in the training of the Task Force and I told him that it was Samson and Thebogo.  
	He asked me to introduce him to them and I told him the other one was in prison and the other one was outside.  So we left with him, together with Tabiso Makwala and we went to Macdonald Thebogo.  I showed him Thebogo.  He told Thebogo that he wanted to meet us on the 3rd of February.  He left to where Tuis was working and we met with Tuis and he asked when Tuis was going to be released.  Tuis informed him.  He told Tuis that he wanted to meet us, the three of us on the 3rd.  
	It happened then that Tuis was released from prison on the 3rd.  He arrived,  Mr Makwala, he was together with Mr Dlogodlo.  We went to Thebogo's place.  We found him and we took him and we left for Samson's place.  When we arrived he was there and he got into the car and we all left for town.  
	We stopped at a place called Nineteen Ten, that's where Dlogodlo informed us that there's work that he wanted to give us and this was the attacking of farmers and he said he wanted money and firearms and we should destroy.  He said we should eliminate, not even to leave a baby behind, that's what he told us.  Those are the instructions he gave us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you carry out the instructions?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: Yes, we carried them out.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now there is evidence that a woman was raped in the process and it is alleged that you are the person who raped that woman.  Was it part of the instructions?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: No, I'm sorry, it was not part of our instructions.  This woman was not raped.  She wanted to protect herself.  I got into that room where she was sleeping.  On me entering the room, I produced a firearm, I pointed her, she was lying on top of the bed and I searched the bed and a firearm fell from underneath the mattress.  I searched and there was nothing.  I left - I left her - I told her to sit on the bed and I sat on the dressing table and whilst sitting on the dressing table, waiting for Samson and Macdonald, Samson came in and he told me:  "We have found another one and we have tied her up already" and I said to him:  "Why did you leave her?  Kill her and this one will tell us everything".  Samson went back into that other room.  This woman told me that they did not have money and the money that she had was all in the bank.  She pointed at the wardrobe.  She said:  "Open that door and there is a bank bag inside there but it only contains silver and a purse".  I opened the wardrobe and I discovered that bank bag and I took it out.  I put it on the floor.
	When I was searching further, I heard someone knocking the door and it was this woman knocking the bedroom door and she was naked and she told me, she said:  "Man, don't kill me, I will give you whatever you want".  I said to her:  "Dress, why do you undress?" and I don't know what happened, I just got blank and she was walking at a distance from that table and I don't know what happened thereafter.  She was close to me and she caressed me.  While I was a bit drowsy, she hit me with a knew on the stomach and I nearly fell and she wanted to grab the firearm and I managed though to quickly grab the gun and pointed it at her and I told her to dress.  That she was raped, no, she was not.  I am still asking myself how it came about that my blood got into her, but I'm sorry, please I left a few words, I did not include them, allow me.  As she was caressing me, she pulled down my pants up to the knees and I think, as she was caressing me, we might have touched each other and that's how my blood got to her, but that I raped her, that is not true.  That's the end of my story.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally, my last question would be to you, now if I got you correctly, I'm subject to correction that your order was that you kill those people there, I did not- was there any order to take anything in that farm, because you mentioned that the order was to kill those people?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: The order was to kill and to take firearms and to take money.  No any other order was given to us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Why then did you take the vehicle?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: Oh yes, we were told not to leave the vehicles behind because a vehicle was one of the things that assisted the organisation, it was known that the PAC organisation was a poor organisation and it was an organisation without any international monetary assistance.  Now we were taking the vehicle - the vehicles that were taken, were taken to Transkei, Lesotho and Botswana to - we were swopping them, we left the vehicles in those countries and we would be given money or firearms, so that the arms struggle could go on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now why was, in terms of the instruction or order, why were these things not handed directly to Dlogodlo, why did they have to be left somewhere?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: Dlogodlo said the car should be left at Tempe.  If there is money and firearms, those should remain in my custody and he will come get them.  Now the firearm was with me.  Unfortunately the money, the silver was about twenty-something rand.  We used it and the next day, on the third day, he sent Tabiso Makwala to me to get a report as to how we performed the duty.  He was in Transkei.  He unfortunately did not personally meet me, he had gone to Transkei, due to other reasons.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you eventually know who Dlogodlo was?

PITSO PETRUS PELEO: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally, why did you not in Court, tell the Court what you are telling the Commission today?