Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR STRYDOM: Personally, what did you do whilst you were moving through the streets of Boipatong?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I was not able to catch one of them, we entered in one yard and we broke the window panes.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from that one house, did you break windows at other houses?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, the others continued to break windows in other houses.

MR STRYDOM: Can you tell the Committee what else did you do?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: After I broke those windows, there was a house on the corner which I opened the door.  After I had opened that door, a group of people entered that house.
	Whilst they were inside the house and whilst I was continuing breaking the windows, one person burnt a blanket which was inside the house.  I took that blanket and threw it inside the house.  Whilst we were breaking the windows of that house, I jumped the (indistinct) and entered in another big house next door.
	I broke the windows, the big window panes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you enter the house or did you enter the yard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I only broke the windows, I never entered that house.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, what happened then?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: When people entered that house, others took TV's, there was one who was scared to take the TV, the big TV.  The person who picked up the big TV, was a little big scared and put it down, then I took it.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the name of that person?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I was not able to identify that person.

MR STRYDOM: At this point, you were at the hostel at that stage, since approximately January to April 1992, did you know many people in the hostel?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, there were people I knew, and many of them were those who came from the township.

MR STRYDOM: And do you know the names of all the people in the hostel or not?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I don't know them all.

MR STRYDOM: In any event, you were telling that you then received a TV from this person.  What did you do with the TV?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: When we left Boipatong, then we proceeded to Madala hostel, we saw police vans.  Then I put it down, because I was scared that I would be arrested.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give an indication, where did you see the police vans that you say?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Those cars we used to call them suitcases, and they belonged to the SADF.

MR STRYDOM: But where, where did you see that vehicle or vehicles?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They came from the direction of between Tserela and as if they were going towards Vanderbijlpark, and they turned at the robot.

MR STRYDOM: The robot that you refer to, is that the robot at the intersection of Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong itself, did you witness any killing of any person?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I never saw any person being killed inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you take the same route back to the hostel which you took when you went there?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, we never used the same route when we returned.

MR STRYDOM: When you went to the hostel, did you still have that TV with you or not?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I left it behind.  I held that iron bar which I had when I went inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: When you got to the hostel, what did you do?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I went straight to my room.

MR STRYDOM: When did you hear for the first time that many people were killed and injured?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I heard the following day, in the morning.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know anything of loot being burnt after the attack in the kwaMadala hostel?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: What do you know about that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: It was Richard, that is Richard, Matanda and Mkhize, those who were going around the rooms.

MR STRYDOM: The Mkhize you refer to in your statement, is that Bhekinkosi Mkhize?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if he personally got something out of a room which he burnt, or not?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, he never burnt anything.

MR STRYDOM: Matanda and Richard, did you see them placing anything on a fire?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the military vehicle that you referred to earlier on in your evidence, did you see any other military or police vehicles during the course of the attack?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see any cars.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know him from?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I knew him from Madala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know in which room he stayed in the hostel?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I don't know his room.

MR STRYDOM: When was the first time for you to see him in the hostel?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: It was after the attack of Boipatong, but I don't remember the month or the day or the date.

MR STRYDOM: Prior to the attack, did you know or did you meet Mr Matanzima in the township whilst you were still staying there?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I started knowing him after the attack or the massacre, I think it was after a week.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Victor Keswa?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: The allegation has been made that he was a sort of leader of a hitsquad.  What is your comments on that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I know nothing about the hitsquad.

MR STRYDOM: Can I take from that that you were also never a member of any hitsquad?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes.  I have never been a member of a hitsquad.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Prince Vanana Zulu?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: During the attack or just prior to the attack, did you see him at the hostel or not?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see him.

MR STRYDOM: Were you a member of the Youth Brigade?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: If you can just bear with me.   Do you know a structure which is called the AmaButho which operated in the hostel?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Who was the leader of the AmaButho according to you?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: The leader I usually saw is Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Just prior, just before the attack when you were still at the stadium, did you see Damara Qunchu?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if he was a leader of any kind?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Strydom.  Adv Pretorius, do you have any questions?

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Victor Keswa, was he there on the 17th of June?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, he was not present.

MS PRETORIUS: How do you know that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I know because we used to go and visit him in Vanderbijl in the cells or in prison.

MS PRETORIUS: You say there were two groups of attackers in Boipatong.  Can you tell us how big the group was more or less, how many people it consisted of, the big group?

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat your question?

MS PRETORIUS: How big was the group of the AmaButho going to Boipatong, how many people did it consist of?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Approximately we could have been 200 to 300.

MS PRETORIUS: The trouble you had in the township, you say where the SDU shot you.

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just repeat the figure, we just didn't catch it very clearly on the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: It is approximately between 200 to 300.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS PRETORIUS: You say you left Sebokeng because you were shot by the comrades.  Who were in charge of the comrades in Sebokeng, which organisation or didn't they belong to an organisation?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were ANC members.