Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

JUDGE WILSON: : Paragraph 24?
ADV. MTHEMBU: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
INSP. DE LA REY: The brown suitcase was hidden under a bed and accused No. 1 took me into the house, he took me directly to the room, he personally took out this suitcase from under the bed and there I went through the contents and after that he took me to the kitchen where the cassettes and the first aid kit were taken out of the oven and the other items in the vehicle were not identified to me in person, it was in the course of the investigation that the vehicle was searched and gone through and the other things mentioned in paragraph 25 were found in the vehicle. Goods mentioned in 24 were identified to me by accused No. 1.
ADV. MTHEMBU: But Inspector, accused, Mr May, according to your version he was brought to you by a member or members of the public at House No. 1663. Is that correct and that is where you found the deceased's vehicle? Now before even going to effect further arrests of the other accused or applicants why did you not search House No. 1663 to find if you will find any articles that are connected or linked with articles removed from Mr Fourie's farm?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I already had evidence such as the watches, the firearms which accused No. 1 could be related to the charge and I found from experience that if you delay too much at one particular place in the day before starting to look for the other persons then evidence disappears because their bush telegram is running fast and then the evidence can be lost and the suspects can escape so we acted immediately, you will notice at 337 K after we arrested accused 2 and 3 there, we locked the house with the purpose of first going to look for the other suspects and after we had found all the suspects then we went back to the houses and then we confiscated the other items, so it was just to save time to get hold of the other people that we did this.
ADV. DE JAGER: Mr De la Rey, you have been asked what Sgt. van der Watt gave to you? It's the brown leather bag, the bullets, the firearm?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct.
ADV. DE JAGER: I don't know if it is a dispute, I know it is a hearsay but where would he have got these things.
INSP. DE LA REY: In the statement of Sgt. van der Watt and what he told me orally, it was quite a distance from the house where the vehicle was found in the vicinity of another house and I think it is probably 200 m, if I can estimate the distance from the house where we were. He found this in another yard, the jacket was lying there, the firearm was under the car.
ADV. MTHEMBU: In view of the fact that the bush telegram goes faster, but not searching House No. 1663 at the time when you arrested Mr May, didn't it occur to you that maybe there will be evidence in that house which could be tampered with if you had to come at a later stage?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But I think he is saying that, after all, he did find some things which were strongly incriminating and what was important for him was to affect the arrest on the other people. Whether some further items will disappear or not, well that could have happened, but that could not have been affected his investigations that much because he had already found some items which were strongly incriminating.

JUDGE WILSON: : Well, what is also relevant is, did you leave House 1663 with the doors open and nobody guarding it or did you leave someone to keep an eye on it?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, with the vehicle which had been found there which was unlocked and the house which as I testified earlier could not be locked, I couldn't afford to leave this place unguarded, I did post somebody there, a few people in fact, with the purpose of preventing any other person from gaining access to the house of the vehicle, so the possibility that somebody could have tampered with evidence did not exist.
ADV. MTHEMBU: Inspector, as mentioned in paragraph 26, all the applicants deny that these articles were handed to you freely and voluntarily?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, after the arrests I got good co-operation from those persons arrested. There was a good understanding between us and as I have said voluntarily without being forced in any way, these items were pointed out to me and I was given certain information without using force of any kind. They voluntarily gave this information to me and the items.
ADV. MTHEMBU: But applicants May, Nkgwedi and Leeuw say that you did apply force on them by way of assaulting them at the time.
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, that is not at all true. Everything took place in Botshabelo well, it has a high population figure, there were a lot of people, there were a lot of inquisitive people and it would have been impossible for me to assault somebody in the presence of the public. This definitely did not happen, I can give you this assurance.
ADV. MTHEMBU: Lastly, Inspector, I put it to you that you have mentioned in this statement that you found certain items or certain items were handed over to you by each one of the accused or applicants in order to aid or to boost your case against the four accused?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, that is definitely not the case, I could never have done something like this to say that I got something from somebody, it doesn't work that way and it did also not apply to this case.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MTHEMBU

JUDGE WILSON: : Did you give evidence at the trial?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: : Was it alleged there that you had assaulted the accused to obtain these items?
INSP. DE LA REY: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: : Do you propose to lead any other evidence? Well, rather I perhaps phrased that somewhat incorrectly and that this witness was, the affidavit was produced some time ago on the basis that if the defence challenged it, the witness would be made available for cross-examination. Are there any other witnesses who you feel should be made available to the defence for that purpose?

MS THABETHA: : No, Mr Chairperson, except that I don't know whether it is relevant to today's hearings, I would have liked Inspector De La Rey to briefly outline step-by-step what actually happened in the investigation, you know, I don't know whether it is relevant to this. In brief, like they found the car, they searched the car, from there they arrested, from there what they did.
ADV. DE JAGER: I think it is tabulated in his - even the time is given at 13.20 this at 13.40 this, so I don't think it would be . . . (inaudible) . . . If there's any other witness that you, that the applicants' representative would like to cross-examine, he should indicate it to you and then you could decide to call the witness.

JUDGE WILSON: : I think, I confirm what my colleague De Jager has said, that from the time of the finding of the car we have a complete timetable set out in the affidavit and I cannot see any need to repeat that, if there was something outside that you want to, that would be a different matter, but to deal with that investigation he has set out and I think the applicants' council has tested it and has put that certain of it is incorrect, we don't need him to tell us the same story again.

MS THABETHA: : Very well then, maybe one question. In paragraph 20, when you found Alice Thlakane(?) in the house, what actually did you request from her?
INSP. DE LA REY: If you will just bear with me for a moment. Mr Chairperson, Alice Thlakane is the wife of accused No. 3, it is as a result of her information that we went to House 1, she said there was some items which she wanted to hand over to me, so she knew exactly what we are going to do at House No. 1663 and when we got to the house she went to the cupboard, she took out the bag and she gave it to me.

JUDGE WILSON: : 1766 isn't it, not 1663?

MS THABETHA: : No, it is paragraph 20.

JUDGE WILSON: : Yes, 1766.