Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

DR KLATZOW: You see the rumour is and has been for a long time that Captain Uys called ZUR and asked for permission to land after the first fire?

VERNON NADEL: I believe that is the rumour yes.

DR KLATZOW: Is there no truth in that?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: Do you think that that ZUR tape no longer exists Mr Nadel?

VERNON NADEL: I wouldn't want to speculate on that.

DR KLATZOW: And you say that there is nothing on that tape?

VERNON NADEL: There's nothing on the tape at all and I would be the happiest person if that tape did come to light.

DR KLATZOW: If I were to tell you that a copy of that tape exists, what would be your answer?

VERNON NADEL: I would say I'd welcome to listen to it then.

DR KLATZOW: And that that tape has been kept in a security establishment for the last ten years.

VERNON NADEL: I would be more than happy to listen to that tape.

DR KLATZOW: Do you think there is any reason why a major country would keep a tape of this nature in a security set up if there was nothing on it?

VERNON NADEL: I would not want to speculate but as I said, I would more than welcome that tape to be made public to dispel all the rumours that have been going on.

DR KLATZOW: Now at the hearing I've told you that Jimmy Mitton sat close to you?

VERNON NADEL: You mentioned that yes.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember that Gavin Dick approached you at the hearing and said what am I going to tell them about the failure to contact ZUR?

VERNON NADEL: I cannot recall that.

DR KLATZOW: Jimmy Mitton will tell this Commission and will tell a Court of enquiry that he overheard Gavin Dick say that to you.

VERNON NADEL: It's possible, I don't recall though.

DR KLATZOW: Why would he say that to you if you had already given him those instructions at ZUR that night?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Well, let's look at it.  Let's look at the possibilities.  If you had said to Gavin Dick at ZUR, look it's not a problem, I mean this is routine, this is standard.  There would be no need for him to ask you what he needed to tell Margo?

VERNON NADEL: If he asked me what he needed to tell Margo it was possibly because he felt uncertain, intimidated, I don't know but I do not recall.

DR KLATZOW: Mr Nadel, on what basis could you make that suggestion.  You were his senior man at the station that night.  You were the man in charge.  He came to his officer in charge, said, I couldn't contact the Helderberg.  His officer in charge said, it's not serious, this is nothing, no big deal.  Why would he be uncertain about that.  That is the thing that all junior officers love, to be able to place the responsibility on the next man up.

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Why would he come to you at the Margo enquiry and say, what am I going to tell them?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Well could you give me a reasonable explanation?

VERNON NADEL: I have no explanation to give you.

DR KLATZOW: Well I'm going to give you an explanation.  The explanation is that that conversation never took place between you and Dick at ZUR.

VERNON NADEL: I don't believe that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask, I'm sorry Dr Klatzow.  You mentioned something here about him possibly having been intimidated.  Why would he be intimidated by anything?

VERNON NADEL: I think maybe just the mere presence of the board in front of him.  He was a junior employee and may have been intimidated.

CHAIRPERSON: What would intimidate him in going to speak the truth?

VERNON NADEL: I don't believe so but I think just the sheer presence of the people around him would make him feel nervous and I think that counts for me as well.  I'm nervous as I sit here.

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't the obvious thing for him to say to you is look I feel very intimidated but I'm going to speak what I'm saying.  But why would he have to ask you what must he say?  Why must he seek to know from you what he has to say except that you know as the suggestion is being made, there was possibly something that you felt has or has not got to be said to the Commission?

VERNON NADEL: Commissioner I don't recall this discussion with him but it is possible that it did take place and as I say I cannot recall what I said to him or what I didn't say to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Klatzow?

DR KLATZOW: Mr Nadel, Jimmy Mitton will come under oath and say that that is what he heard, overheard between you and Gavin Dick.  And I want to put it to you, for your comment, that there is only one explanation and that is that the conversation that you claim to have had with Gavin Dick that night at ZUR did not occur?

VERNON NADEL: Well I wouldn't want to speculate on that at all no.  I believe the conversation did occur.  We did communicate during the evening.

DR KLATZOW: Well then I'm inviting you to give me a better explanation as to why Gavin Dick would ask you what to say to the Margo Commission when it was quite clear that all he had to tell was the truth, if that conversation did take place.

VERNON NADEL: I cannot give you an explanation for that.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  Because I've searched my mind for an explanation for that for many years and none is forthcoming other than the one that I have given you.

VERNON NADEL: I spoke to Gavin Dick on the night.

DR KLATZOW: Well did you have the conversation that you allege that you had with him?

VERNON NADEL: During the evening?

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

VERNON NADEL: I would believe so yes.  I cannot recall exact words and times and dates.

DR KLATZOW: If that is true then there would have been no need for him to ask you what he needed to tell Mr Margo?

VERNON NADEL: That's possible.

DR KLATZOW: That is likely, overwhelmingly likely I want to put it to you.

VERNON NADEL: I cannot comment on that.

DR KLATZOW: At the time of the enquiry you were aware of the rumours.  You were also aware that the tape was given to Mr Mickey Mitchell?

VERNON NADEL: I would believe so yes.  I cannot recall but I would believe so yes.

DR KLATZOW: He was the next in the chain up?  You're also aware that that tape, whether it contained information or not would have been an important tape in relation to the investigation.  Even if it was to negative certain allegations?

VERNON NADEL: I would believe so yes.

DR KLATZOW: That tape went missing.  Who do you blame for the fact that that tape went missing?

VERNON NADEL: I would blame whoever took the tape and gave it to the person for safekeeping, that person, who it is I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Well, whoever took the tape and I want to take you up on what you just said, would have taken the tape, not just to leave it lying around.  He would have placed it in a position of safety, wouldn't he?

VERNON NADEL: I would understand that yes.

DR KLATZOW: And he wouldn't have just given it to the tea girl or the messenger man or the assistant who did things there, he would have given it to somebody in authority?

VERNON NADEL: It's likely.

DR KLATZOW: Is that correct?

VERNON NADEL: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: Who was the next person up in authority, easily available that evening at your station?

VERNON NADEL: I don't want to speculate on that.  There was a lot of people.  As I said, probably between 20 and 40 people coming and going at all times of the morning.

DR KLATZOW: Mr Van Der Veer was there?

VERNON NADEL: He was there yes.

DR KLATZOW: And it would be like to him, it would be the obvious person to have there.  He was the chief executive officer?

VERNON NADEL: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: So it's likely he would have been at the hub of things?

VERNON NADEL: Oh yes.

DR KLATZOW: And had the tape been taken out of ZUR by Jimmy Deel, passed on to Mickey Mitchell, it is likely that it would have come into the hands of Gert Van Der Veer?

VERNON NADEL: It's likely but it's not that it's 100% possible.