Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR MATELA: No, it was not necessary, but it is because when they were being beaten they were also fighting back, and therefore their clothes were torn apart.  It was a large group of people.  Even when I beat the one man he was trying to run away.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja he was trying to run away but he had no weapon to defend himself.

MR MATELA: I didn't realise what he had in his hands.

ADV DE JAGER: But you've seen - you were the first person to see them, you in fact reported that they entered the township.

MR MATELA: Yes I was the first one to see them, they asked me where the ANC comrades were.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they armed at that stage?

MR MATELA: I could not see because they were still in the car at the time.  The people I was talking to were sitting at the back of the car so I did not realise whether they were armed or not.

ADV DE JAGER: They didn't threaten you in any way at that stage?

MR MATELA: The manner in which they spoke to me and when I asked them why did they want the comrades I suspected something and I even became scared.  It was the first time I saw the White people looking for our ANC comrades.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't they ask to buy liquor?

MR MATELA: No they never said that.  For liquor they wouldn't come to the location.  When you enter the location, just at the entrance there is a bar and there is a bottle store where there is a place for women and a place for ladies, inside the Mashengoville there is no bottle store.  We gave instructions that they should not sell
liquor in Mashengoville.

ADV DE JAGER: In fact there was evidence at the trial that you chopped the private parts of the woman with an axe, do you remember that?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

ADV DE JAGER: At the trial there was evidence that you were the one, accused 1, who in fact near the vehicle's back wheel chopped the woman's private parts with an axe.

MR MATELA: That is a lie.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you remember that such evidence was given?

MR MATELA: Yes I do remember that evidence being given.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you remember who gave that evidence?

MR MATELA: If I can remember clearly it is Michael Malebe or Justice.

ADV DE JAGER: They lived with you in the township, is that correct?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they your enemies?  Were they your friends or were they enemies?

MR MATELA: No I did not know them well and they were not my friends, actually I do not know them.

JUDGE WILSON: They pointed you out at an identification parade didn't they, or Japi Mosese did?  That's so isn't it, you were pointed out at an identification parade?

MR MATELA: Yes they identified me in the parade.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly tell us, you said you'd done this with a political motive, what did you want to achieve by killing, for instance, this woman.  What political objective did you have in mind to achieve if you would kill these people?

MR MATELA: We ANC comrades had conflicts with the White people, we wanted changes.  I did not kill this woman, personally I never killed her.  My case is a political one because we were given an instruction by the ANC because we were holding meetings all the time.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember that Manong gave evidence that after this incident the local civil organisation, of which he was a member, distanced itself from this murderous attack and deplored it, do you remember that?

MR MATELA: Yes I do.

ADV DE JAGER: Suppose it was Mr Slovo or Mr Niehaus, White people visiting you that night, what would you have done?

MR MATELA: I was going to go to them and report what happened if they were the ones who gave us that instruction.  But the instruction was given by our local chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but they were White - the persons I am mentioning, you knew them they are White, Mr Slovo and Niehaus, Carl Niehaus.

MR MATELA: We knew Joe Slovo then and most White people don't come into Mashengoville.  The only White people will go into the charge office and they will be escorted.  But these scared me because they were not escorted, they were moving all by themselves and I knew that White people were not allowed in the township.

ADV DE JAGER: So if Mr Niehaus on that day or Mr Slovo visited the township without being escorted you would have killed them?

MR MATELA: No, we wouldn't have because they would have reported first when coming to the township.

ADV DE JAGER: So you say they won't be killed because they would have reported first to come to the - where would
they report?

MR MATELA: They would broadcast this in the radio or at one of our meetings they would inform us about their coming.  That is our procedure in the ANC, we are informed in meetings.

ADV DE JAGER: So if you weren't informed that Whites would come to your township you would murder all the Whites coming to the township?

MR MATELA: Yes we would not do that, but we would try and find out what were they looking for.  But these ones said they were looking for the ANC comrades when I asked them.  If they responded well as to why were they looking for the comrades I would have stopped them from entering the township because of the patrol.

ADV DE JAGER: Now you weren't present when this killing started, when they were stopped - ja that's what you say today, you were not present then?

MR MATELA: It's true I was not there when it started.

ADV DE JAGER: So you don't know whether they've explained before the killing started?

MR MATELA: I don't know because when I met them for the first time they proceeded and as to whether they went into Mashengoville or not I don't know, but as to whether the comrades asked them whether they were armed or not I do not know.  I got there whilst they were being attacked already and we were aware that there might be people who would be coming to attack us.

ADV DE JAGER: So you don't know when the confrontation started and when the killing started whether they in fact explained what they were doing there, whether they begged for their lives or whatever they might have said, you just
joined in and killed?

MR MATELA: These White people came to me and said they wanted the ANC comrades and I told this to the other comrades when I came across them who were patrolling, and obviously other comrades informed the other comrades and the word spread.

JUDGE WILSON: You know Mosese don't you, he's a member of the ANC there?

MR MATELA: We don't know each other so well in the ANC.  Everybody carried their own cards, we just meet at the meetings.  He's the only one who can tell whether he's a valid member or not.

JUDGE WILSON: You heard him give evidence about how he tried to stop the people behaving as they did, did you hear that?

MR MATELA: Yes I heard him saying that in the court.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.  And he tried to open the car so they could get away.

MR MATELA: Yes I heard him saying that.

JUDGE WILSON: And that when the woman got out you caught hold of her, and she asked you to spare her life and offered you money which you refused saying you wanted to have intercourse with her, and that you then dragged her around the corner of a nearby house, you heard all that didn't you?

MR MATELA: Yes I heard all that evidence.

JUDGE WILSON: And the Judge believed him.

MR MATELA: Yes he believed him.

JUDGE WILSON: That is that you were one of the people who started the attack, or rather you were one of the people who chased their car, who forced them out of the car and started the attack, you heard all that evidence and you elected not
to give evidence yourself.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And there were other witnesses who identified you too weren't there?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.