Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, when we were planning and discussing the whole matter, during the discussions certain security precautions were discussed.  I mean, Walus said he was going to recce Mr Hani's house and he was going to make sure that his car was not seen there too often with false number plates.  He was also considering whether he would camouflage himself, because he has a very prominently coloured hair and that would have made him very easily identifiable.  So, these were part of the details which he was mentioning to me as part of his planning and that is why, when I saw what happened, that he had not camouflaged his car and that he had not disguised himself and he went in in broad daylight, it was really strange to me.

UNKNOWN: The circumstances that you mentioned would indicate to you that he did it not in accordance with a plan?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not in accordance with the indications that I had of the way ...

UNKNOWN: That you had in mind?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... he was going to operate.  No, no, that he was going to operate.  He had

UNKNOWN: He was going to ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... carte blanche on the arrangements, yes.

UNKNOWN: But now, he may have been negligent in his conduct, but why should that have given you the idea that he was set up by anybody.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I could never believe that, with my knowledge of Mr Walus, that he would be negligent in his conduct, ...

UNKNOWN: Because he is a ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... because ...

UNKNOWN: Because he is a professional killer or because he had special qualities in relation to the performance of this act?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because it was totally out of character.

UNKNOWN: What portion of his character was it out of?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was not a reckless sort of a person, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: He was not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: A reckless sort of a person and to me the whole thing ...

UNKNOWN: How did you know that he would not be reckless about an assassination?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not know, Mr Chairman, but I still felt that that was strange as to what happened.

UNKNOWN: Did you, perhaps, ask him whether he had killed anybody before in order to satisfy yourself that he was a fit and proper person chosen to perform the act?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: On no occasion, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Did you have confidence that he would do a professional job?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I identified him as a steady sort of a person and he was calm and he came across as being competent.

UNKNOWN: Did you discuss with him whether he had had any military training?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not, Mr Chairman, but I knew that he was involved with weapons.

UNKNOWN: He was involved?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: With weapons.  That he had his own weapon and that people use to take their weapons to him on a plot which, I believe, the family owned outside Pretoria, where they actually use to test them and ...

UNKNOWN: Which persons' weapons were tested on his brother's farm?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I do not know, Mr Chairman, ...

UNKNOWN: Where ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... but I knew that they were tested, because ...

UNKNOWN: How ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... he told me he had done these tests.

UNKNOWN: In what context did he tell you that he had tested other peoples' weapons at his brother's farm?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, ...

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To the best of my knowledge, a very good friend of his testified to that effect in the trial.

UNKNOWN: No, I asked you what knowledge you had of his ability to carry out this important, to you, important task before he was chosen to commit the deed?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I had no reason to doubt him, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Bizos, sorry to interrupt you.  Mr Derby-Lewis, the, once you use the words "set up", does that not suggest involvement of other people beyond the two of you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I agree that it suggests that, Mr Chairman, but I had no knowledge of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is an amazing term to use in the context of what has happened, is it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it was my immediate reaction upon hearing of the circumstances.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But on what basis, I think that was the question, to which I am not sure we got an answer.  It is one thing to say somebody acted negligently, but it is quite a different thing to suggest the possible involvement of other people, because inherent in the use of the words "set up", as I have already indicated to you, there is a suggestion of involvement by some other people.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, and I can assure you that on the right, we were almost paranoiac, eventually, in our suspicion of people, because of the extent to which the de Klerk regime had infiltrated the various right wing organisations and perpetrated all sorts of treachery from within those organisations.  So, that was, my immediate reaction was, yes, it must be a set up, he would not have done that the way he did it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You, did you feel that somebody or some other people might have come to know about the plan or the plot?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not know, Mr Chairman.  I did not know, but I...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, I am asking, did you think that somebody could have come to know about that plan?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: When I saw his ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... behaviour, I thought it was a possibility, but I knew it was not from my side.  That is why I believed that he had been set up.

UNKNOWN: Did it occur to you that it might have been Mr Faan Venter who knew something?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, Mr Faan Venter knew nothing.

UNKNOWN: Or Mr Kemp who knew something about the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Kemp knew nothing about anything planned between Mr Walus and myself, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Or Mrs Durant or, possibly, her husband that delivered the gun saying that they thought it was a jersey?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, they knew nothing about that.

UNKNOWN: Or Mr Clarke?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Mr Clarke was totally not involved.  I have testified to the fact that Walus and I planned and did the whole thing together and nobody else knew, Mr Chairman.  I specifically protected everybody that I had to approach for assistance, because of the danger of their being arrested and being involved.

UNKNOWN: Or ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I protected them from by excluding the knowledge from them.

UNKNOWN: Or a Mr Visser?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Visser?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Who is Mr Visser, Mr Chairman?  Sorry, is this this chap who is going to testify here about some ridiculous story about a cheque for my legal costs?

UNKNOWN: Well, once you raise it, perhaps we should look at it.  (Disruptive clapping by the audience)

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Victory, victory George.

UNKNOWN: He says ...

CHAIRPERSON: Who are we talking about?

UNKNOWN: It is a document which was handed to us by the Commission under cover of a letter of the 6th of August 1997, Mr Chairman, with an extract from an application for amnesty by one ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the copy of, the copy is on its way.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we have no copy.

UNKNOWN: A copy, Mr Derby-Lewis.  Apparently, Mr Visser, is applying for amnesty, among other things, the, number eight, "doelwit diefstal",
"JCI pension fund cheque to the value of R3 68/9 182, 65 cent.  Account opened by Commandant Roodt and committed by the members.".
Who is Commandant Roodt?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Do you know a Commandant Roodt?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure.  I have met many people in Krugersdorp and I cannot remember, specifically, this gentleman, but it is possible that I had met him.

UNKNOWN: Well, try and think how many Roodts' do you know who would have the title of Commandant?