Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, I had a weapon in my possession, one of these throw away weapons, so yes, I must have known that I would probably be involved in the shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: You may have just pushed yourself forward and started shooting, without having been ordered to do so by anybody, is that what you are telling us?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, we have unfortunately before us only a reference to this specific application that we are hearing you, we have only an extract from your application before us.
	I understand that there are also other incidents for which you have applied.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: There is one other incident Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Does that incident relate to the shooting of any individual?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Rosslee, at the bottom of the page, page 6, of Exhibit B, you refer to what happened eventually, to the two firearms that you referred to earlier and you say that you handed them in to the South African Police during the second amnesty for illegally or unauthorised firearms in terms of the then existing legislation in that regard, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: This happened when?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I think it was the second firearm amnesty that was held Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you remember the date?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall off hand.

MR VISSER: You say in Exhibit B, 1991/1992.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, that was possibly when it was then.

MR VISSER: What would normally happen to those firearms that are handed in in terms of amnesty?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Those firearms, my understanding is that those firearms would be destroyed.  In instances people have applied for licences for weapons they hand in.  I didn't.

MR VISSER: Mr McCarter gave evidence to say that it was himself and Mr Lembede, who threw the body over the cliff.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Visser for interrupting, let me just got to this.  Mr Rosslee, why did you retain those weapons long after you have left Vlakplaas and the employ of the South African Police, if it was stock issued to you by Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That was not stock issued to us at Vlakplaas Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Where did you get those weapons from?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I procured those weapons because they were weapons that were going to be destroyed, at the Quartermaster's stores.

CHAIRPERSON: That were?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That had been confiscated and were to be destroyed.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was it that you got them?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: From the old Quartermaster, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Where was that, at Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, Pretoria.

MR MALAN: And when was that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall when that was, but it must have been prior to the incident with Mr Bhila, quite a while prior as I recall.

MR MALAN: How did you manage to get hold of that, why would it be given to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The weapons were to be destroyed, and I had a contact, since deceased, who worked there.

MR MALAN: Who was that contact?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall the person's name, it was a Lieutenant that worked in the section where they destroyed those firearms.

MR MALAN: Why would Mr McCarter have given evidence that these were given to you at Vlakplaas, at least given to him at Vlakplaas, that he didn't get it from you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My explanation would be that I brought them from Quartermaster's and they were dished out at Vlakplaas.

MR MALAN: By whom?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I wouldn't, I can't recall who handed them out.  Some might - Mr De Kock might have given some out, I don't know.

MR MALAN: So, did you not get those pistols for your own use, but for the use of Vlakplaas generally, did it go into the arsenal of Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that a number of members got some of those weapons, Mr Chairman.  I don't know if there were left, that were kept in the armoury, or what happened to them.

MR MALAN: How many weapons did you procure from this since deceased Lieutenant?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would have to guess and say in the region of 12 or 14, something like that.

MR MALAN: Did he know that you were working at Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: He did.

MR MALAN: Did he know what purpose you wanted it for?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: He knew they were going to be used as throw away weapons, yes Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Is it possible to find out what the name of that Lieutenant was?  If he was a contact, a person that you did know at that time, surely somehow you would be able to get to his name again.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I could possibly make enquiries.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you interested in getting throw away weapons?  You have told us as I recollect your evidence, that throw away weapons were used if you shot someone who was unarmed, to leave it on the body to make it look as if he had been armed?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you anticipating that you would be shooting unarmed men and needed throw away weapons?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No Mr Chairman, it was a case of see why, cover your arse.

CHAIRPERSON: Hm?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It was an preventative measure, not a preventative measure, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, preventative of what, shooting unarmed men, that is one of the examples of the two examples you gave us?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.  In circumstances and I am sure any Police Force in the world has seen it, innocent people or bystanders sometimes get shot.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were planning to protect yourself against being found out if you shot innocent people?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: If it so happened, yes Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, you are giving this evidence as if it is par for the cause for all members of the Force?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: So why did you procure these weapons?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Exactly the reason I stated Mr Chairman, they were procured as throw away weapons.

MR MALAN: But why would you do that and not another member of the Force?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know.

MR MALAN: Did you have any intention or expectation of shooting people illegally?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I didn't Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But as a Sergeant, you thought you should provide them to the other members of Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: There was an opportunity as I recall, to get these weapons Mr Chairman.  I got them and handed them out for whatever use anybody was going to use them.  My purpose for having them, was as a throw away weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that is what alarms me that members of the Police Force should be anticipating  that they would need weapons for the purposes you have told us, that you should think necessary to arm yourself with two of them, and provide them for other members at Vlakplaas.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, the circumstances then were a lot different from what they are now, and we travelled in dangerous places in those times, and anything could have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if it was dangerous, the people would be armed and you would be entitled to use your weapons.  The throw away weapon you have told us, was where you shot an unarmed person.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, that was one of the eventualities that it could be used for, yes.

MR MALAN: Give us another Mr Rosslee.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: One of the others I stated was we would have agents or informers and those weapons would sometimes be given to them, when they infiltrated purely as a backup or a last ditch weapon.

MR MALAN: Yes, but that is not as a throw away then, that was for a specific purpose.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That would be for a specific purpose.