Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

MR NTONGA: Is it correct that you give orders through that structure down to the foot-soldier?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I used to instruct the regional commanders and they would take the command down to the foot-soldiers.  The foot-soldiers would implement.

MR NTONGA: We have heard evidence here that you were a commander of a unit in which the two applicants were members, the four of them, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: They were just foot-soldiers, they were not commanders.  The field commanders had fallen.  Those who are still alive, that is Dumisane Ncamazana, that is the person I used to know at the time.  He was a foot-soldier, he was not a commander.

MR NTONGA: The evidence that they have led in their application is to the effect that after the armed struggle had been suspended in '94, they still received instructions to carry out certain operations and they claim that they received those instructions from you.  What do you say to that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I think that was a failure on the side of the commanders, it was not their fault.  I never instructed them to carry on.  I told them in January, I told the commanders to stop fighting.  I think that was a failure on the side of the commanders of the time.

MR NTONGA: I don't know ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry.  You misunderstood the question for the second time.  If we can go back one question which you haven't really answered.  The two applicants said, and this was the question you were asked - it may not have been interpreted properly because from the nature of your answer it sounded like you didn't really understand it, you were asked: "they say you were their commander of their unit", were you the unit commander?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I was a high commander.  They were far away from me.  I was never a unit commander.

MR LAX: They say ...(indistinct)

XHOLILE TJABANE: ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Carry on.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I could not give them orders, there were other people in the chain who could give them the command.  I was at the top.  They were far away from me.  I couldn't give them a command.

MR LAX: So you've answered the second question.  You did not order them to go on any missions yourself after the termination of the struggle?

MR NTONGA: So it is correct ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just let him answer, just let him confirm that.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I'm saying, from the beginning I never gave them any instructions, there were other structures that I used to give them a command, the Regional Command and the camp Commanders.  I was never responsible for them.  They used to get their instructions from the other structures, not myself.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying to the Committee therefore that you yourself never gave commands directly to that unit, as a high commander, as they allege?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I never gave any direct command to them.  I used to give commands to the structures like regional commanders down, not directly to them as foot-soldiers because they were at the lowest level of the hierarchy.  There were other people who were responsible to give them instructions, the field commanders who were working with them during the war.

MR NTONGA: As a high commander in the Eastern Cape, did you give any instructions after January 1994 for any operations after the armed struggle was suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: After the President had said that it was time to stop the fighting, I called the structures, the regional structures and I told them that it was time to stop the armed struggle, they had to go and inform the other forces that we had stopped fighting.  That was the end.

MR NTONGA: And can you tell the Committee when for the first time you saw the two applicants, that is after the 1994 suspension of the armed struggle.

XHOLILE TJABANE: When I saw them for the first time, I saw Mbambo for the first time after the Bahai attack and I asked where he was coming from and where he was going and how was he recruited, and they told me that he was found in Mdantsane.  I asked as to what his position was in the fight and I asked them where did they get this person.  They said he is the person who took care of them at Mdantsane.  I saw Mbambo for the first time on that particular day.

MR NTONGA: They allege in their application that the order to attack the Bahai came from you, can you confirm or deny that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I never instructed them to go and attack.  I used to instruct the regional commanders, though I had already told them to stop fighting.  I never instructed them to go on operations.

MR NTONGA: So is it correct that you only became of the Bahai attack after the attack?  (sic)

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I heard that after the attack.

MR NTONGA: They further allege that on the 24th of March '94 you ordered them to attack a bus conveying white people to Da Gama Factory,  did you do that or not?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I never gave them any instructions.

MR NTONGA: If the Committee would bear with me.  The incidents in which the two members, applicants, and the other two who are late are applying for, occurred after the 1994 suspension of the armed struggle.  Is your evidence to this Committee the fact that after that declaration you never gave anybody any further instructions to go into any operations?  Is that your evidence to this Committee?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I never gave anyone orders to go on operations after I had called the higher structures to cease the armed struggle.  I told them to go home.

MR NTONGA: It is further correct that around March 1994, PAC was already canvassing for votes in the election and there were also posters around all of South Africa to that effect, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, I beg leave to hand in the original affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Perhaps your client should just confirm it.

MR NTONGA: Do you see that document in front of you?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I do.

MR NTONGA: Do you see the signature at the end of the document?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Is that your signature?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, this is my signature.

MR NTONGA: Is that the affidavit you made in our offices and signed before an attorney?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any cross-examination?

MS COLLETT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr Tjabane, in the High Court in Bisho, Director Letklapa gave evidence and one of the things that he said - and I refer to page 15 and 16 of the typed record of the proceedings, was that despite the fact that the armed struggle had been suspended, it took quite a period of time to actually be conveyed to certain of the, for want of a better word, units in South Africa and specifically he said that at the time that the Bahai Faith Mission attack took place, he knew that the Transkei had not received that information.  Would you like to comment on that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I think that was a failure from the higher structures that were my subordinates, but I had already told them that it was time to cease the armed struggle.  I was not residing with them, I was staying somewhere else.  I wouldn't call the forces whenever I was about to issue an instruction, I used to call those who were close to me, that is my subordinates.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, can you tell me which record this is.

MS COLLETT: It's Exhibit J.

MR LAX: It's Annexure J.

CHAIRPERSON: Relating to which trial?

MS COLLETT: The criminal trial at the High Court in Bisho, the evidence of Letklapa.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the Bahai?

MS COLLETT: Of the Bahai incident, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got this large bundle.
DISCUSSION RE BUNDLE

CHAIRPERSON: It's not part of the original Court record?

MS COLLETT: No, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, page 15?