Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the proper question would be: "Is there anything that you disagree with insofar as it effects you"?  Are you able to say or not?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think there isn't area here that disagrees with my position.

MR HATTINGH: Can we then take it as indicated on page 6 of the bundle, the middle of the page of this Background Statement that all decisions to eliminate members of the Black Cats were taken in this committee, referring to that Special Committee of which you were a member at the time?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And if I understand your evidence correctly, only two decisions were taken and that was the decision regarding Jwi Zwane as well as the decision regarding Chris Ngwenya, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, those are the two decisions that were taken by the committee.

MR HATTINGH: Were any other decisions taken by yourself, that is not in consultation with the committee, regarding elimination of any particular person?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I cannot remember any instance except for the self-defence units.

MR HATTINGH: On page 7 of the bundle under the heading, it's towards the end of the page, under the hearing
"Robberies"
... it is stated that a number of robberies were committed by Mzwandile Gushu acting with members of self-defence units.  It also states that the amnesty application of Jabu Mkhwanazi is referred to in this regard.  Did the people who committed those robberies report back to you regarding the robberies?

J A MKHWANAZI: The instruction that I gave to Mzwandile was that he should use his own discretion and report back to me.

MR HATTINGH: Would you then answer my question, did he in fact then report back to you about the robberies?

J A MKHWANAZI: I have already indicated to you that he came to report to me on what had transpired.

CHAIRPERSON: Including the robberies?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he did.

MR HATTINGH: This Background Statement deals with a
period of approximately two and a half years, do you agree with that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think so but I'm not obviously accurate about this.

MR HATTINGH: Now the question is, on how many robberies did Mr Gushu in particular or any other person report back to you during this two and a half year period?

J A MKHWANAZI: I cannot remember very well, I just remember that he was charged for the Piet Retief and the Mine robbery, but I cannot be sure as to how many robberies he reported on.

MR HATTINGH: If we take the two mentioned robberies as a starting point, did he report to you about any other robberies?

J A MKHWANAZI: Chairperson, may the speaker please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he report to you on any robberies?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the advocate is talking about two particular robberies, I'm not too sure which.  Answer the question that he puts to you on those two robberies.
	I'm not too sure which robberies you're talking about.

MR HATTINGH: I think your evidence is that you just said that Gushu reported back to you about the Piet Retief robbery as well as the robbery at the construction site and I ...[intervention]

MR PATEL: That is not evidence of this witness Mr Chairman.  There was a blanket question: "Did he report back to you about robberies"? and the answer was a blanket answer.  Perhaps Mr Hattingh should clear it  up.

MR HATTINGH: I apologise Mr Chairman, I thought I heard two places mentioned by the witness when he said there were reports, but in any event I'll take it.
	Would you then be specific about the robberies that were reported to you by Mr Gushu?

J A MKHWANAZI: What clarification?

CHAIRPERSON: The robberies that he referred to you that he reported back to you on, where did they take place, do you know?  Can you remember?

J A MKHWANAZI: Insofar as the construction company one is concerned, I went to hospital to see him and he told me that he was shot.  They went there looking for firearms.  Another one that I still remember is the Piet Retief one.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the one in respect of Mr Msibi?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now the question I'm asking flowing from this is: did Mr Gushu report to you any further robberies which were committed during that period of two and a half years for the purpose of arming or financing the SDU's?

J A MKHWANAZI: When I started talking I did indicate that the ones that I still remember are the two, it is possible that he might have told me about some other robberies.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps I could ask you, put the question differently.  Are you prepared to disclose information with regard to any other reports of robberies committed by Mr Gushu or any of the SDU's?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's put it this way.
	As I understood your answer about other robberies, you say he may or may not have reported to you, can you remember?

J A MKHWANAZI: Chairperson, I do not remember quite well.  The one robbery that I remember is the Piet Retief one and the mine one.  I do not remember whether he did report on other robberies and if he did I may have forgotten.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mkhwanazi, the question remains, would you be prepared to disclose information regarding other reports of robberies?

CHAIRPERSON: From Mr Gushu?

MR HATTINGH: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But he just says he can't remember so how can the preparedness thereof be answered?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, obviously if his inability to remember is just an explanation or an excuse for him not willing to tell this Committee about it ...

CHAIRPERSON: How do you come to that conclusion?  ...[inaudible] follow as far as I am concerned.  If a persons says: "I can't remember", that he is able now to answer a question which takes a form of his preparedness to answer a question on that issue.  How does he answer truthfully if he can't remember?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'll leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless I'm misunderstanding the question totally.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'll leave it at that.
	In your supplementary statement, the one which you'll find on pages 75 to 78, you mention a:
"Brief Historical Background"
That is in paragraph 4 on page 76.  Do you see that, the second last line on page 76?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I can see that.

MR HATTINGH: That
"Brief Historical Background"
is also incorporated into your supplementary statement.  This document that you refer to, is that the one that we find on pages 9 up to page 19 of the bundle of documents?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Have you or perhaps I can just rephrase myself, did you take part in the preparation of this
"Brief Historical Background Statement"

J A MKHWANAZI: I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you participate in the drafting of it?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I did partake in the drafting of the statement.

MR HATTINGH: Did you read this
"Brief Historical background Statement"
before it was annexed or included into your supplementary statement?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I think I did read it.

MR HATTINGH: Is there anything in this statement pertaining to you which is not correct, as far as you are concerned?

J A MKHWANAZI: As far as I know, none.

MR HATTINGH: Now if we turn to page 9 of the bundle of documents, that's the first page of this
"Brief Historical Background"
Under paragraph 5 it is stated that:
"On the 22nd of July 1990 and at a public meeting called by SANCO which enjoyed the support of the majority of the community, a decision was taken to dissolve the Black Cats"
Were you present at that public meeting?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?  Just repeat that answer.

J A MKHWANAZI: I said I was not present.

MR HATTINGH: On the next page in paragraph 6 reference is made to certain Annexures showing details of attacks and events and incidents during the relevant period.  Did you assist in preparing this Annexure reflecting the events or the incidents that occurred in that period?