Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I did not know this number. I did not know that they were the same. What I looked was the names and thought that maybe the numbers were not the same. Because this ID number was lost. I never got to see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Which ID got lost?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The one belonging to Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Which has the number at paragraph 4 of Exhibit E?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes the one of Shabalala I did not know its number.

CHAIRPERSON: How was this number then obtained at paragraph 4?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: This number I got because I had this police ID. That is how they got to get this number. Because I did not have an ID.

CHAIRPERSON: The new certificate or the old one?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The old one.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought you were issued with a new appointment certificate as well.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I was given an appointment certificate, a new one and the numbers were not the same on the appointment certificate. I did not see that on the ID it is still (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel wants to establish is the documents that we have would seem to suggest that your names may have been changed but your ID number appears to have remained the same. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As far as I can see I didn't think this one is an old ID.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one the one that is Exhibit E?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Exhibit E.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think this one belongs to the old ID?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't believe it (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You think this is the new one?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't think this is that old ID number.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala you see your new ID which reflects your surname as Mavuso bears the same number, the ID number that appears on your application form. So are you saying this is your new ID number?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree that I see it as I see it here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to clarify a further aspect. You will see on Exhibit E at paragraph 5 there you say your date of birth is the 14th of May 1957. This is now another date of birth that you giving us. Is that correct or not?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: May 14th?

MR HUGO: Yes but the year is it now 1957?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No it should be 1956.

MR HUGO: So is this just a typing error? It should have been '56?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes it must have been a typing error.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Shabalala I want to go back to the time when you re-entered South Africa after you had been in exile. Can you remember that you said that you came back voluntarily?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Through which border post did you enter the country?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Ermelo, Ooshoek.

MR HUGO: And is it correct that you then proceeded to go to Newcastle?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I went on my walks I proceeded to Maritzburg and then from Maritzburg I went to Newcastle.

MR HUGO: Yes and to which specific person did you report when you approached the police to say that you want to join them or alternatively that you have been in exile and you are now back in the country? Which specific individual did you report to?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not remember the person's name any longer. I don't remember.

MR HUGO: Did you go to the charge office in Newcastle and just present yourself there or did you go to the security branch in Newcastle?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I went to the security police in Newcastle.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you approached the police in Ermelo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is the police at Ermelo that I approached and who then told me how and who I must proceed on moving with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: From Ermelo to Newcastle you were under police escort?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR HUGO: So at Newcastle you were then introduced to the security policemen that were in charge of the security section there and what did they tell you to do or what actions did they take vis-a-vis your position?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When I arrived at Newcastle there was white man who had arrived from Ladysmith who then questioned me this way or that way: when did you arrive, where are you coming from, did you arrive and so on. When he finished and he said when I finish there I must go on to Pretoria and talk to those at Pretoria.

MR HUGO: Were you detained or tortured during this experience that you had with this policeman that asked you these questions?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Ja he did beat me from time to time but it was not very, very harsh. But it was not very tough. He did beat me from time to time.

MR HUGO: Who is this person? Can you remember?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't remember any longer. I stayed for a month.

MR HUGO: Did this particular person take a formal statement from you that was signed by you and signed in the presence of a Commissioner of Oaths? Can you remember whether you did that?

MR HUGO: I do not remember if he took a statement as to whether I had signed. I don't think I was required to sign. I don't think I had to sign anything.

MR HUGO: And why was it necessary for you to be kept in Newcastle for a month before you were sent to Vlakplaas?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: They were still writing my biography and what the story was generally where I had lived in exile and came to South Africa. How I had left South Africa what were the circumstances that lead to my coming back. They were asking all of those things.

MR HUGO: Yes that is what I was hoping you would tell us. You were aware of the fact that they were compiling a profile on you as an ex-member of the ANC or the PAC. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is what they were doing during my stay at Newcastle. Requiring of me all details surrounding me and my history.

MR HUGO: Now you know it will become important later but let me put it to you at this stage already that. Let me rather ask you; were you aware of the fact that these summaries of people that were turned or became South African police sympathisers that used to be members of the ANC these summaries were then distributed to all the security force or security police branches in the country? Were you aware of that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know.

MR HUGO: Have they never told you that all the security branches in the country have your information on their files obviously to enable them to assist with searches and operations in their areas or jurisdiction?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR HUGO: All that I want to know Mr Shabalala is were you aware of the fact that security branches all over the country had access to this particular file of yours?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: For instance this particular file of yours and Bra Mos would have the same and obviously Shosha as well they would be made available for instance to the security police at Barkley East. Were you aware of that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know that.

MR HUGO: Well let me put it to you that Mr de Kock will testify that the modus operandi used by the security police was quite simply that they would compile and prepare these files on askaris. That would then be distributed nation-wide and the purpose of that was to enable various security branches to ascertain whether an askaris comes from their area and whether they could use a particular askaris to identify suspected ANC members in their region. Were you aware of this particular method?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know.

MR HUGO: But do I understand you correctly though that when you say that you spent a month in Newcastle that all this information was extracted and gleaned from you before you arrived at Vlakplaas?

MR HUGO: ... 62 of the bundle in front of us.