Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR MOERANE: So when did you see this mark for the first time?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: At the reconstruction for the first time.

MR MOERANE: At the reconstruction?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.

MR MOERANE: A year later?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: How did you know what had caused that mark?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: We drew the inference that it must have been that bullet that came in between the two of us, Van Zweel and I agreed upon it.

MR MOERANE: You see there had been shooting in that area a year before that on the 8th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the 12th of June.

MR MOERANE: And on the 12th of June, for the life of me I cannot understand how you can go to that spot a year later and say that spot, that mark must have been caused by a bullet from the flash that I saw from the left door.  I don't see how you could have come to that conclusion.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, at the reconstruction the kombi was placed not only according to my memory, but according to the other people who were present there that evening, or those who could be present with the exception of Colonel De Kock's people which means that if one of us had done it, then somebody must have been behind us and there was nobody behind us.   Or that if it had been one of our own people, they could have killed us, that does not make sense.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Moerane is getting at is well, Mr Rorich is, how can you be sure that that mark was made by a bullet, why not from an exhaust pipe falling off an old motor car or something falling off the back of a truck or something like that?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, with respect, it was just an inference that I drew, I mentioned it in my evidence in chief, I drew the inference.

MR MOERANE: In what direction does that road run, is it north/south or east/west?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: It is more or less in the vicinity of south to north.

MR MOERANE: And north would be Piet Retief?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.

MR MOERANE: So this vehicle was slightly to an angle and the person who was, if it was somebody firing, he must have been firing in a southerly direction for that bullet to hit the tarred road, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is how I have it Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Yes.   But you see, Manzini according to your evidence, had run out of this vehicle into a westerly direction, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, if we look at east to west, run passed the kombi.

MR MOERANE: That is right, so the person who would have been firing, was not firing, assuming that it was a passenger in that vehicle, he was not firing in a westerly direction, he was firing in a southerly direction?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Well, I put it to you that this story about a person firing from this vehicle is just a fabrication, by all of you who have made this identical statement, seven of you.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, with respect towards the learned person, it may be his version but he was not there that evening.  What I have submitted to you, to this Honourable Committee, is what I experienced not what Mr Moerane tries to put to you, for sure not.

MR MOERANE: It is also consistent, what I am putting to you is consistent with Colonel De Kock's version, you heard him, he was right in front there, about a metre or two from this person, and he didn't see the person firing?   You heard that, didn't you?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, I have  listened to Mr De Kock's evidence and as my memory serves me today as I sit here, I stand by what I say.

MR MOERANE: Did you see a person fire?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I saw the flash.

MR MOERANE: Did you see what that person had in his hand?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: That flash, some doors when you open a door of a vehicle, it has a red light on it, could it have been that, it all happened very quickly, the door swung open, you might have just seen that red light that some doors have?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, that kombi of mine did not have a red light in the door.

MR MALAN: Could it not have been Mr De Kock's shot that you saw the flash from?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, Mr De Kock is a very good shot, if it was his weapon, then I would not have been here today, that is as certain as the sun shines.

MR MALAN: But we speak of the flash, you cannot surmise from a flash whether you were hit.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I am talking about the flash that came in my direction, not from his firearm.

MR MALAN: This flash that you saw, could you see where the bullet was going to?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: It was in our direction.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a flash, when you say you saw the bullet coming in your direction, was it a long flash or was it just a spurt of light at the edge of the barrel of the gun?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: When a weapon is fired at night, one could see the flash which comes out of the barrel of the gun, that is what I am referring to.  One cannot see the bullet, that is impossible.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is just an instant flash?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: Did you see the person who shot, did you see him?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I saw a person climbing out of the kombi, I could not determine what exactly because when the shot was fired, we started shooting, and afterwards, the  man was laying outside.

MR MOERANE: Did you see what that person had in his hand?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, not at all.

MR MOERANE: Then why do you say in your statement
"... one person with AK47 rifle jumped out"?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, as I said in my evidence in chief, the inference that I drew with regard to the flash that I saw, it sounded like an AK47 and that is how I wrote it.  After the shooting had ceased, the man lay down with the AK in his hands.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You were the Commander of Witbank Security Branch?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Who was your Commander, who was in charge of you?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Brigadier Visser at Middelburg's Regional Office.

MS LOCKHAT: Was he the Commander of Middelburg, that whole area?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, he was the Commander of Eastern Transvaal.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you inform him of this incident?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, it was not my duty.

MS LOCKHAT: Why do you say it was not your duty if he was your Head, that he should be aware of your actions in what you were doing?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, maybe I should just mention to you that because of the fact that this incident had taken place in Piet Retief's area which resorts under Colonel Deetlefs it would be normal practice that the Commander of that area, draw up the reports and inform the necessary people who had to be informed.  I was only part of the team, that was all.

MR MALAN: Mr Rorich, did you not even report the write-off of the mini-bus that you brought there, did Mr Deetlefs report about the assets which were under your control?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, the mini-bus was my problem because it was my vehicle.

MR MALAN: Did you not report about the vehicle to Visser?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I did.

MR MALAN: What did you tell him about that?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That the bus was used in the incident and that it was written off and my mini-bus was replaced.

MR MALAN: In which incident did you tell him that bus was used?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: In the incident of the 12th.

MR MALAN: So then you did report to him about the incident of the 12th?