Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't seen it, but I see there is a huge document here.  I don't know if it is capable of being reduced?

MR MARTINI: I am assuming that is of the Early Learning Centre, with the roads, that is the structural diagram?

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently there are some roads there.  Just show Mr Martini and Mr van Zyl please.
	I think although I haven't seen this plan that is being looked at now, we will call it Exhibit K.  I don't know if it is possible to make copies of it?

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, it doesn't really show the layout from the parking and the roads so to speak.  It is a defined diagram of the structural building, but with that little island and the long road, it doesn't really depict that properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is not there.

MR MARTINI: Unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, we will call it Exhibit K and see if we can get a map which might show that circle.
MAP OF THE LAYOUT OF THE BUILDING HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT K

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

MR SIBANYONI: I have a further question.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni wants to put a question.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr van Zyl, as the people were leaving the parking lot, driving away, were they coming towards your vehicle or were they driving away?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If my memory serves me correctly, and I cannot tell you exactly how many vehicles drove passed us, or who drove in that direction, but it is possible that some of them even passed by us.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there no risk that they will either identify Gakkie or maybe become suspicious when seeing you parked outside that building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: There was such a risk.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you still remember when they totally left, were they driving towards the block of flats or the Civic structure?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that, I know they came out of the parking area.  I cannot tell you in which direction those vehicles drove, it is impossible.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.  Mr van Zyl, I just want to ask you another question, one more question on this issue.  If you had passed the front entrance, Gakkie would have pointed it out to you surely, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I believe so.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ask Calla Botha at any stage to detonate the bomb while you were in the front part of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: If anyone was to say something to that effect to this Committee, he would be lying, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Can I just briefly, or maybe just, after tea, Mr Chairperson, refer to the statement of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's just go on for five more minutes, I see it is five to eleven, we want to do as much as possible today.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, can I refer you to the statement which Gakkie made.  It appears in Bundle B, on page 156.  Would you mind reading the second paragraph, the third one, starting with "De Wet said ..."?
MR VAN ZYL
"... De Wet said that I had to drive around the building again.  When I drove in Springbok Street, in front of the ELC, de Wet told the person at the back that he could press."

MR WILLIAMS: Just pause for a minute.  Just Springbok Street, according to my instructions, this road is the road that passes the front section of the ELC, do you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it correct that Gakkie knew you as de Wet, he called you de Wet?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So would you say that the statement as it appears here, would be incorrect?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Definitely.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie would be lying if he says that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: If he testifies that you told him that he should press the remote while you were in the front section of the building, or in the front, in the road, passing the front section of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is untrue.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you mind just reading further down.
MR VAN ZYL
"... At that stage I did not know what he meant by this.  I looked in the mirror of the vehicle and I saw that the man was pressing two or three times on something in his hand.  I could not see what it was, nothing happened."

MR WILLIAMS: Read further.
MR VAN ZYL
"... I once again turned into Lower Klipfontein Way and the man sitting at the back, gave something to de Wet.  I could still not see what it was.  It was approximately the width of a packet of 20 cigarettes and approximately twice the length of a packet of 20 cigarettes.  De Wet said that I had to drive around the building again.  When I was at the back of the building, de Wet pressed it, nothing happened.  I drove on."

MR WILLIAMS: Further please.
MR VAN ZYL
"... While I was still driving, de Wet took penlight batteries from his suitcase and replaced it with the batteries that were in the object.  I don't know how many batteries there were.  I saw that he gave it back to the person sitting at the back of the car and I still did not see what it was."

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, the next two sentences?
MR VAN ZYL
"... When I drove passed the front of the building again, I heard a loud bang.  At that stage we were approximately 15 to  20 metres passed the building."

MR WILLIAMS: Would you just pause there, thank you Mr van Zyl.
"... I once again turned into Lower Klipfontein Way",
now according to my instructions Lower Klipfontein Way is located in the front part of the building, it is the road that runs parallel to Springbok Road, do you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.

MR WILLIAMS: So, this statement then, if it is correct, would mean  that you were somewhere in the front, somewhere at the front of the ELC, in the road, in the front part of the ELC?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is not my evidence, sir, then I reject it.

MR WILLIAMS: No, I am talking about the statement as it appears here.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be.

MR WILLIAMS: But is your evidence that this statement is incorrect, it is false?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: The statement says further that
"... when I got to the back of the building, de Wet pressed it, but nothing happened.  I drove on."
	I read this to mean that at some point when you were at the front part of the building, someone tried to detonate the bomb, it didn't go off, you then went to the back part of the building, tried to detonate it, it did not go off, that is what the statement means, do you agree with me?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is what the statement probably says.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it your testimony that that evidence, or that statement, is incorrect or false?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: You have already said that if someone says that you changed penlight batteries, it would be false?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, the further statement says
"... when I drove passed the front of the building again, I heard a loud bang."

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is false.

MR WILLIAMS: That would obviously mean that you were in front of the building, he says ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is quite clear, you don't have to answer it, it says so here.

MR WILLIAMS: If Gakkie were to come to this Committee here and testify facts to that effect ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, this microphone is giving a problem here.

MR WILLIAMS: If Gakkie were to come before this Committee and testify facts to that effect, he would clearly be lying, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie knew the area better than you?  What makes you so sure that he is wrong and you are right?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Because the scene where we were standing, or the position where we were standing when the bomb was activated, was at the back at the parking area that I pointed out to the Commission yesterday.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.   Mr van Zyl, do you dispute the fact that there were people inside the building at the time when the bomb went off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.