Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It was mine.

MR LAX: Yes, but where did you get it from?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I made it myself.

MR LAX: It was a home made firearm then?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it was home made.

MR LAX: You see, when Mr Msani gave his evidence, he spoke of two shotguns and one home made firearm.  He didn't say yours was a home made firearm, he said Palela's was a home made firearm.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: The one that was carried by Palela, was mine.

MR LAX: But you see, he spoke about three firearms.  He said he had his shotgun, you had your shotgun and Palela had a home made firearm, shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: My note on this said and I am reading from my notes on Mr Msani's evidence, I had a shotgun, that is Msani, as did Mbutho.  Mbutho also had a tomahawk.  Cele had a bush knife and then Palela took Mbutho's gun, we divided into two groups.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I could quite easily have misheard it.  You didn't shoot the deceased at all?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Not at all.

MR LAX: Where did you get the ammunition for your firearm?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: The ammunition for the gun?

MR LAX: Correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: We used to get that from the community.

MR LAX: Well, who in the community would give it to you?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: If I didn't have bullets or ammunition, I would actually go to other comrades and ask for help.

MR LAX: Yes, but why are you not telling us who you went to?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: There is a lot of people that I actually went to.

MR LAX: I am just getting the impression that you are not willing to tell us who the people are.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: No, it is not like that.

MR LAX: When this SDU was formed, you heard me say to Mr Msani that it was basically a continuation of a previous group of young people, who had already been defending the community, is that right?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: So there was nothing special about being an SDU, you had already been doing this for a number of years?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Will you repeat your question?

MR LAX: There was nothing special about being an SDU, you had already been doing this kind of work, for a number of years?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, why haven't you applied for amnesty for any other acts that you have committed besides this one that you have been convicted for?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: This is the first one that I was involved, directly involved.

MR LAX: So you weren't involved in any other attacks on any other people on defending yourself and your community against any other people, in all the time from 1985 till 1990 and going on until you were arrested?  Are you seriously telling us that?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, indeed.

MR LAX: So what sort of SDU were you involved in then if this was the only incident that you were involved in?  Was there no violence in the area?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: There was violence.

MR LAX: But you weren't involved in it?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: No, I wasn't.

MR LAX: No further questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbutho, what was the approximate age of the deceased?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I would actually estimate it at 40 something.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Committee?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.  You have been asked the question who were the people that you got the ammunition from.  The question is not confined to the ammunition that was used to Mr Mkhize.  Can you recall at any stage, acquiring ammunition from some other people and are there any people that you can recall from whom you acquired this ammunition?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It is has been a long time.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, can you recall anyone of them that gave you a firearm, sorry the ammunition?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I don't remember any one.

MR NGUBANE: Did you buy it or was it given to you for free?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: No, it was for free.

MR NGUBANE: Did Mr Luthuli, the Commander at any stage, give you ammunition?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Will you repeat the question?

MR NGUBANE: The Commander of the SDU, Mr Luthuli, did he at any stage give you ammunition, if you can recall?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: Would Mr Chair just allow me to make a follow up on the question I asked earlier on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, and then I will give Mr Ngubane another chance if there is something arising from it.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mbutho, what would you respond to a statement which says that because Mr Msani and them were your friends, and because Mr Mkhize had attacked Jogolo Cele before, you saw Mr Mkhize, you approached your friends, you decided to go and revenge and kill him.  What would be your response to that statement?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It wasn't necessarily revenge.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean it wasn't necessarily revenge?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I say so because we were just attacking each other, both sides.

MS THABETE: So I would be correct to say the main aim for you attacking Mr Fanana Mkhize, was not because he had attacked Mr Jogolo Cele who happened to be your friend?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, that is the truth.

MS THABETE: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

MR LAX: You see in  your application, if you look at the translation at page 60, 10(b) at page 60, you say here that Sixtus was attacking us with his followers.  The deceased had shot one of us, claiming that he had burnt his store.  That must be a reference to Cele and unfortunately for them, Cele didn't die.
	That is correct, isn't it?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR LAX: You then go on to say that on the 7th of November the deceased had come to our place, visiting his mother.  We then caught him and stabbed him to death.  That looks and sounds very much like revenge for having shot Cele and that is the way you have put it here?
	You go on to say that the reason you didn't attack the family is that some of them were our members.  It looks to me from what you have said here, and again it might be a problem with the translation, but you can correct me if I am wrong, that the reason you were looking for this man in particular, was that he had shot Cele and he never managed to kill him.  What do you say to that?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, Mkhize was involved in the shooting of Cele, but when we took a decision to kill him, it wasn't due to the fact that he shot Cele, but it was that he was attacking us, he was with the ZP's and the IFP's.
	Also at Cele, it would be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbutho, approximately before the 7th of November, that is the day that the deceased died, was the attack by the deceased upon Mr Cele carried out?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Cele was attacked early 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was some months before the death of the deceased?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, but I wouldn't actually be sure how many months, but to a certain extent, some months.

MR LAX: In your reply to the question, when you took a decision to kill him,  when exactly did you take this decision to kill him, was it on that day, was it before that?  Explain to us please.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It has been a long time that we have been attacking him, but in vain.

MR LAX: You still haven't answered my question, when did you take that decision to kill him?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: We took it on that particular day.

MR LAX: Who is the we?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It is myself and the other two applicants and the others, who did not apply.

MR LAX: Where were you when you took that decision, and how did it come about, did you meet, did you have a discussion before you went to Mkhize's family's house?