Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage feel that - I mean you personally - for the background and information you have given about Mr Kuzwayo, did you at any stage feel that it was necessary that Mr Kuzwayo be killed or eliminated?

MR HLOPE: No, I didn't.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Now Mr Hlope, I'd like to take you back to the incident where you attempted to murder Delani Sekakane and Begelita Letule, do you remember that incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Where does that appear?  Where does that appear in the affidavit ...(inaudible) please.

MR HLOPE: This was the first incident.

MR SHANGWENI: It's paragraph 8 of the affidavit I've just given you Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just enquire about the previous killing.  You said on a question of my brother here, that you regarded him as a political opponent - he was a member of the UDF, is that correct?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that's correct.  He was a member of the UDF, Mr Zazi.

ADV DE JAGER: And at that stage the UDF and the IFP were political opponents fighting each other in that area, is that correct?

MR HLOPE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there also members of the IFP killed during that period?

MR HLOPE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Mr Djamile himself attacked?

MR HLOPE: Yes, he was attacked several times even his houses were being attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: And you've told us now that he was a prominent member of the IFP at that stage.

MR HLOPE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: What you were doing, the directions you've given to the other members - what was his name - Vuzi, did you do that on instructions of anybody?  Who instructed you to go and point out this person's house and his shop?

MR HLOPE: Mr Djamile instructed me to direct and point out these houses, so I was carrying these orders.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you carrying out his orders when you went to point out the place of the deceased?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that's correct.

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Hlope, let me once more direct you to the attempted murder of Delane Sekakane and Begelita Letule as stated in your affidavit, paragraph 8 thereof.  What happened?

MR HLOPE: What I know is that in 1987 at Claremont, after Mr Djamile was attacked by a hand grenade, there were people who belonged to UDF and they were swearing at Mr Djamile and they were swearing heavy at Mr Djamile.
	I saw this happening and during that week Mr Djamile called me - he actually sent my father to call me and when I arrived at his house he took me behind his house and he asked me if I knew the boys who were swearing at him.   I told him yes, I knew those boys and he also asked me if I can go with the police to point out to the houses where the boys were staying and  I said yes, I can do that. 
	And then I stayed at his house because he told me to stay there.  I stayed with  Vuzi Mbete and Mr Djamile came to us, he had three balaclavas and three overalls and he an ammunition inside a Standard Bank plastic bag.  He gave me torch and he gave Vuzi and this other boy bullets and then he told me that we should go and I must point out the houses belonging to these boys who swore at him the other day.
	As we were going there we used shortcuts and as we approached the river - it was dark - we started wearing our balaclavas and our overalls.  We went straight to the boys' house who were UDF as well and at that place, they call it Magogokweni and it is built by a corrugated sink.  We started knocking - they told me to kick the door, I did so and then we went inside the house, the three of us.  
	They started shooting.  They boys were sleeping and they started shooting at them.  As they were shooting, I heard one of them crying, screaming asking why, what's going on, what have we done and I could recognise the voice that belonged to Begelita.
	After that it was silent, the screaming went off and then we started running back to Mr Djamile's house.  At Mr Djamile's house we were asked by him as to how we went.  We told him the operation went very well.  And then he gave us muti to wash ourselves with and to drink as well and then he told me to go back home.  I went home and the next day he sent my father to call me again.
	I went to Mr Djamile and he told me to go back to were we shot as to try and find out what was going on after the previous night's shooting.  As I arrived there, there was blood all over the place and I learnt that those boys whom we shot at were not dead, we actually shot at their feet so they survived.  
	I went back to Mr Djamile, I told him, he looked unhappy and told me to go and call Vela and Vuzi and he asked them as to what happened, he sent them to kill those UDF members but now they've survived.  I couldn't stay longer, I left.

ADV SANDI: You say after the attack on the two boys who had sworn at Mr Djamile, you went back to Mr Djamile to give a report, is that correct?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that's correct.

ADV SANDI: And according to your report everything had gone well, who was giving this report to Mr Djamile, was it you?

MR HLOPE: Mr Djamile asked us as to how the operation went and we told him that we went well - the operation went very well - after that he gave us muti to wash and to drink.

ADV SANDI: My question is, which one of you as a group was giving a report to Mr Djamile, was it you yourself or another member of the group?

MR HLOPE: As he was asking, he was asking all of us, the three of us so we all reported this matter back - we said very well and I also answered.

MR SHANGWENI: Msizi, after this attempted murder of Delane Kakane and Begelita Letule, did Mr Djamile give you any money as a reward for what you have done?

MR HLOPE: No, he was not paying me.

MR SHANGWENI: In terms of paragraph 19 of your affidavit which deals with the killing of Nicolas Mkhize, could you explain to the Committee what happened before and after Mr Nicolas Mkhize was killed?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I can do that.

MR SHANGWENI: Explain please.

MR HLOPE: I will put it this way, it was in 1988 and I was at Mr Djamile's yard, he called me and he asked me if I know Mr Mkhize who was a caretaker in one of his stands in Claremont.  And then he asked me if I can go to Mr Mkhize to kill him and then I said to him yes, I can do that and then he said okay.
	I told him that I will wait for him to tell me as to when exactly to go and kill Mr Mkhize.  After a few days I was at a certain place where - a laundry - and one person came and greeted me, he called me by my name and when I turned back to look at this person, I realised that I didn't know the person and I saw the person going straight to Mr Djamile's house afterwards.  
	I went there to Mr Djamile's house because my father and my stepmother were staying at Mr Djamile's house.   I went there and I met this person again and I started asking him who it was and he took off his sunglasses and his cap and I then I realised that it was someone that I knew.  And then he told me we were supposed to go somewhere.
	He told me he was going to a bus stop and then he asked me, Dalikolo, if I knew Mr Mkhize and I told him that of course I do know him and then he told me that he came here on an operation to kill Mr Mkhize but now that Mr Djamile is not there, he won't be able to kill him.  He also asked me if I knew if Mr Mkhize carried a gun or not and I said I think he's got a gun because he's a taxi man.
	After that incident Mr Dalikolo came to Mr Djamile's house again.   When Dalikolo came for the second time, that's when I was called by Mr Djamile to go and look if Mr Mkhize was at his house and also to look which car was he driving.  I did as I was told and I discovered that he was at home and he was using a Chevrolet, a red one.  I went back to Mr Djamile to report and I told him everything about the car.
	I didn't Mr Djamile telling Dalikolo about this but later I heard that Mr Mkhize was shot at his car.