Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, there's a mistake there, Verwoerd should be Vorster but please continue.  We understand what you're actually trying to say.
MR ERASMUS
"I remember saying to Doctor Verwoerd, he should let me deal with the threat of subversion and the revolution in my own way.  I told him that I could not fight communism with the Queensburry rules, if you did then you would loose.  He agreed with me and said that he would leave me free to do what I had to do"

MR VISSER: And that was 1961?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes indeed, that was 1961.

MR VISSER: And now in 1960, you did the promotional exam in the South African police, you were successful in this and in 1960 you were appointed as a station commander of the police at Mzimkhulu in Griekwaland.  Is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And you were promoted to Sergeant.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In 1961, you were involved with the detective work in Lesana and also certain matters against pupils in ...[inaudible].  You mentioned that in paragraph 9, but what I want you to mention to the Committee is, what your awareness was regarding the availability of evidence at that stage.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: At the stage during this investigation - and that was also at the security branch where I was stationed on a relief basis, I already then realised that because of intimidation it was extremely difficult to find evidence or witnesses to give evidence in a criminal court.

MR VISSER: You refer - to put this in the correct perspective, you are referring to evidence in criminal procedures with a political motive.  In 1962 you were transferred to Mkobo as station commander and you were then sent to Rosebank as a detective, as an exchange transfer and later to the security branch at The Graze.  Is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In total you were associated with the security branch from 1963 to 1983, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you retired in 1989?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I retired in 1992.

MR VISSER: What happened between '89 and '92?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I was first divisional commander of the Witwatersrand region -the commissioner or that region and then I was appointed as the regional commissioner of the Witwatersrand area.

MR VISSER: During this time, were you involved in certain matters which were of historical political importance in our the country?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I was part of the investigative personnel of the security branch at The Graze.  I and other people amongst others, handled the Rivonia case, the bomb which exploded on the station - the so-called Harris bomb which exploded at The Park station as well as a matter which was heard in Pietermaritzburg under the name of APDUSA.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us what it stands for?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It stands for African Peoples Democratic Union of South Africa.  It should be from South Africa.

MR VISSER: From 1963/64, was that period from the point of view of security, was that characterised by any specific incidents?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, numerous acts of sabotage were committed.  The targets were railway lines, electrical lines, electrical sub-stations.

MR VISSER: Just to return to the question of the Harris bomb and this refers to the Arms Resistance Movement, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: ARM stands for the African Resistance Movement, Africa.

MR VISSER: Why I'm referring to this is, that I want you to tell the Commission whether you were personally involved in the Harris bomb explosion in Parktown station or what your experiences were.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I was there Mr Chairman, and I had to be part of the investigation.  This bomb exploded at 16H00 in the afternoon, that was the time when people go to the station to depart to their various destinations.  It is also one of the busiest times at the station.

MR VISSER: In this bomb explosion 83 people were injured and one lady of 77 years of age died.  We also know that because of detective work and various investigations, Mr Harris was found guilty and executed.  Is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Will you tell us - this incident, did it make any impression on you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, the impression it made on me was that I was amongst these injured people, I saw their blood and other pieces of waste.  I had to look amongst that for evidence for this matter.  I can tell you that if you walk around that debris, you have this strange feeling and you feel nauseous.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, we are going to talk about - we are going to omit paragraph 16, 17, and 18, they are self-explanatory and we want to come to your first experiences in the beginning of 1997 when you were transferred to Pietermaritzburg.  And there you replaced Colonel Dreyer as divisional commander.
	In this regard I refer you to the evidence which has been provided, I'm not certain whether this is also contained in a bundle.  The evidence which was rendered before the Gross Violations of Human Rights Committee - I believe it was on the 26th of June, yes indeed Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether you have it before you.  I wish to refer to page 44, if you do have it before you Mr Chairman.  It's not one the two - part of one of the two bundles which we have, it's other evidence which we were provided by the Committee.  Perhaps I could just - could I hand one copy to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Provided by the Committee?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, we received it from the TRC Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, from the TRC, that's not the Committee.

MR VISSER: No, it was from the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't got it.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, you may be interested in that.  That is evidence that was given on the 26th of June last year in this hall, in regard to the Mthimkhulu matter as well as the Madaka matter - various witnesses gave evidence at the time.  You are free to use that copy Mr Chairman, it's my attorney's copy but you're certainly free to use it.
	For the present purposes, as far as this particular witness is concerned there's only a very short - only one reference in all of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we call this bundle C?

MR VISSER: As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The bundle B will be the other bundle produced by the investigation unit.

MR PHOSA: May I just interpose here Mr Chairman.  At some stage I've got to prepare myself for tomorrow, am I going to have a copy available for me?

CHAIRPERSON: You may be able to borrow mine.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the reason why I interrupted the leading of the evidence is because I believe that it's proper to alert you to the fact that Mr Erasmus was referred to by one of the witnesses, one Mondi Mditswa at page 44 and perhaps I may read this Mr Chairman.  The reference starts at line 20 and it says
"The formation of COSAS posed a serious threat to the State"
Mr Chairman yes, the pages you'll observe are numbered from the middle of the pages, it makes it a little bit difficult.  I think it's one page before the one that you're on now, it's page 44.  Have you found it Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: If I may repeat
"The formation of COSAS posed a serious threat to the State, hence a systematic harassment and repression that was to follow throughout it's history.  The State was convinced that COSAS was the brainchild of the ANC.  During the 1980 student's boycott, students decided to form a new student's body which was named the Port Elizabeth Student's Committee, that is PESCO.
	This was necessary as stated by the fact that COSAS was already under the constant eye of the security police and was seen as a hawk.  PESCO was specifically formed to spearhead the boycott until student" - 
Must read: "demands" instead of "scants", we assume.