Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which were perceived to be ANC strongholds.

MR NGUBANE: Yes.  Yes.  Can I proceed?  I think he has...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now let's turn to the attempted murder of Mr Welcome Mtimkulu.  Now you mentioned that you received instructions to kill Mtimkulu from Maj Langeni.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.  It did not only originate there.  I also explained that Mr Mtimkulu was also discussed at a meeting which I talked about yesterday.  His name was discussed also at that meeting.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry, I don't recall that meeting.   Do you say it's a senior leadership meeting of the local branch of Inkatha or of the Ulundi branch of Inkatha?  What's the position?

DJ MKHIZE: His name was mentioned even within the local leadership of the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did that include Mrs Mbuyazi, Mbyela and who else?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, who else was there?  Mr Mtimkulu is particularly interested in the names of those people.

DJ MKHIZE: I mentioned myself, Romeo Mbambo, Mrs Mbuyazi, Phipi Vyela.  I also mentioned Chief Mathaba.  There are other meetings, but I'm not sure whether Counsellor Nzuza was also present at this particular meeting.  But what I am sure of is that it was not just Maj Langeni's idea, but the local leadership of the IFP was also interested.  Also wanted his name on the list.
	I may not be specific about the meeting at which Mtimkulu's name was mentioned about the people who were there, but the people that we used to hold meetings with, I've already mentioned their names.

MR NGUBANE: Did the BSI participate in the planning of the attack on Mtimkulu?

DJ MKHIZE: Of the people that I was with there was no BSI member when we attacked Mr Mtimkulu.

MR NGUBANE: How did you get to know the residential address of Mr Mtimkulu?  Was it not through the BSI?

DJ MKHIZE: If we can just speak about the BSI; they have files.  They used to have files where they kept track on ANC leadership.  Therefore Mr Mtimkulu also had his own file within the BSI department.  Particularly on his activities.  Therefore communication between the BSI and the local leadership helped the local leadership on obtaining information about that particular person.

MR NGUBANE: And that information would be transmitted to you to follow up.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: We followed that information under reconnaissance.  We would conduct reconnaissance after an instruction had been given to kill someone.  We did not usually follow a person to ascertain what activities he was conducting or what he was mobilising.  We would follow a person to ascertain the righter spot or an ideal spot where we could attack him.  Where we could carry out an attack without being detected.  We didn't really follow a person's activities.  We were only interested on how we could get to hit him.

MR NGUBANE: Because I have instructions from Mr Mtimkulu that on the eve of his being attacked he was asked in detail about his movement and his residence and on the following day he was attacked by you.  Would you perhaps have knowledge of that immediate information prior to his attack?

DJ MKHIZE: It is possible that what Mr Mtimkulu claims did in fact happen.  It is clear that the local leadership had information on his activities.  But where they got that information, it is possible that he was being asked by sources of the IFP leadership.

MR NGUBANE: Yesterday... [intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you leave that point Mr Ngubane.  Mr Mkhize, you in your affidavit and in your evidence if I recall well you stated that you didn't know his whereabouts; you had to make enquiries and establish where he was staying.  How did you establish where he was staying?  Did you speak to BSI?  It must be something that should be within your personal knowledge.

DJ MKHIZE: I did not verify his residential address from the BSI.  I only enquired about it at a side from people because he was known.  Some people would know where he was staying, so I discovered that he was staying at Upper H2 in some flats there.  I confirmed this by seeing his green Skyline where I had been told that he stays.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Now in this incident you also mentioned Joyful Mthethwa and we know by now that he was a Caprivian.  Do you confirm that?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And he operated mainly at Nseleni area.  Is that right?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is true.

MR NGUBANE: As of now do you know about his whereabouts?

DJ MKHIZE: No.  I have been in prison since 1993 up to the present day.  I don't know anything about him; I don't know whether he still lives in Ensaleni or somewhere else.

MR NGUBANE: We have learnt that he assisted you in the operations at Esikhawini.  Did you also assist him in the operations at Nseleni?

DJ MKHIZE: No.  They had already fixed the situation in Nseleni.  People like Barney Msomi know that Nseleni had been fixed a long time ago.  Therefore there was nothing that required my assistance there.

MR NGUBANE: Now you mentioned a character by the name of -well, who is a policeman by the name of Manzini and you indicated that he was an ambiguous character who was thought to be ANC and also IFP.  Do you recall that?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: At the time of the attack of Mtimkulu according to you was he IFP?

DJ MKHIZE: It is difficult to remember that Mr Ngubane, because I already explained that I did not understand Manzini at the time.  I couldn't know which side he fell on.  I cannot really say which side he fell on at the time.  Because even today I don't know.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Mtimkulu instructs me that on the following day a powder blue vehicle belonging to Manzini was seen at the scene of the crime committed on the previous day and the people there were picking up cartridges in an attempt to cover up.  Would you know anything about that?

DJ MKHIZE: No, I don't know anything about it.  What I can say that Manzini is an ambiguous character.  We don't know whether at that time who he was working for between the ANC and the IFP.  It could be that he was working for the IFP or the ANC.  I am not really sure.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  Let's move on to the incident as the person you refer to as Daliwe Mkhwanazi.  That will be on pg 28 of your affidavit; pg 100 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: It's para 52.

MR NGUBANE: Firstly, who advised you that Mr Daliwe had a surname called Mkhwanazi?

DJ MKHIZE: I learnt later that his surname was Mkhwanazi.  I thought that his surname was Daliwe.  I thought it was - when I received an instruction about him, his surname was not mentioned.  It was only said that Daliwe who drives a Ford and his car was described, and I knew the car.  Because he usually parked outside troublesome hostels.  It was normally seen outside those hostels.  And there was this information heard or held by the local leadership that when we come to raid hostels we would meet this car on our way....Who April Daliwe stays in Ngwanase.

MR NGUBANE: Did you assume that because he was residing in the Ngwanase area at Kwadlangeze, therefore he must have been Nkwanaze?

DJ MKHIZE: I wouldn't say that he was Mkwanaze because of that.  If I remember correctly up to my incarceration I knew his surname to be Daliwe.  That he was Mkwanaze, I think I got this when we started making statements or affidavits.  I cannot quite remember amongst the people that I was incarcerated with about how it came about that he was Mkwanaze.  But at that time I knew him to be Dadiwe.  I didn't know that he was Dadiwe by (indistinct).

MR NGUBANE: When you received instructions to eliminate him, was there anything suggested to you that he was a threat to the Mkwanaze tribal authority?

DJ MKHIZE: No.  I'd be telling a lie.  We did not discuss him and the Mkwanaze chieftain.