Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes, they were to attack Mr Ngcobo's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and by attacking Mr Ngcobo's house that would include attacking anyone who was also inside the house is it not so?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: We thought that he was alone inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit you've stated that your house had also previously been attacked, do you recall that?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And who had attacked your house?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Dodo.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Dodo?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Dodo Mbambo and Mshlate, his brother and Tokozani.

CHAIRPERSON: Tokozani Cele?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Tokozani Blosi.

CHAIRPERSON: And to which political organisation did these people belong?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: And then your house was attacked, was it an indiscriminate attack on your house or did they shoot at your house and the people who were inside the house?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No, they didn't shoot at the people, they came straight and they said they were looking for me and they were told that I wasn't there and they said they must tell me when I come back that they will come back for me and they will catch me and they left.  They met my sister on the street, they chased her away until she ran to my uncle's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was your sister actually chased away?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: I don't have any idea because she's a female.

CHAIRPERSON: When you took a decision to attack Mr Ngcobo's house what objective did you seek to achieve by that attack?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Our objectives was to kill him so that the violence will deteriorate because at that time it had gone up.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your intention to kill any person who would have been in the house and whom you thought was an IFP person?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No, it wasn't my aim, my aim was to just kill Mr Ngcobo.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not fighting the IFP, were you not having continuous running battles as an ANC member with IFP people?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No, we didn't want to have continuous fights with the IFP.  We didn't want to fight every single supporter of the IFP.  The only problem with Mr Ngcobo was that he was the one who used to attack us.  He shot at us and I think I know the reason why he shot us.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did he shoot at you?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: ANC supporters or members killed his mother but I wasn't part of those attackers who attacked and killed his mother.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?  Was it also in 1993?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: I think it was 1990, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Would I therefore be correct in assuming that there were continuous fights between members of the ANC and the IFP in your area from 1990 to 1993?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that the members of one political organisation were killing members of the other political organisations?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the organisations concerned were ANC and IFP?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you personally were aggrieved by the fact that your own brother had been killed in this conflict between the two political organisations?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you also intended to kill members of the IFP because of this political conflict that you had?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Mr Nyawose, referring to the first paragraph of your affidavit, the killing of the mother of Sitombe Ngcobo, do you know who attacked and killed her?  You said they were other members of the ANC, do you know any of them?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes there are some people that I know that they were among the group who killed the mother.

MR MALAN: Can you mention some of those names that you can remember?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I will mention the ones that I remember and unfortunately some of them they passed away.  Vusi Nglovo, Thabani Nglovo, they are brothers and the others I don't remember because there were quite a number of ANC supporters who came to visit to the area.

MR MALAN: Do you know or did you know a person Dan Cele?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I know Dan Cele.

MR MALAN: Was he involved in that attack to your knowledge?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes, he was present.

MR MALAN: Was he one of the comrades, Dan Cele?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes he was an ANC.

MR MALAN: Was he a youth leader in the youth league?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Were you a member of the youth league?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you hold any position?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No I didn't have a specific position but they would sometimes put me in any position wherever there was a vacancy.

MR MALAN: And Tokozani who accompanied you in this attack, was he a leader?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Sometimes he would be a marshall since he was working and if he wasn't at work then he will be a marshall in the meeting.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, I take it that you wouldn't be bold enough to wish to re-examine?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes there's only one question I want to ask to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: So you want to be bold?  Yes, I will allow you to re-examine.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you.
	Mr Nyawose, now that you divulge all your participation in all these acts, how do you feel now?

CHAIRPERSON: That is not re-examination.

MR MOLOHLANYE: My pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: You can re-examine on anything that came out of Mr Panday's questioning, Ms Thabethe and the Committee's questions.

MR MOLOHLANYE: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You can apply to reopen your evidence in chief to ask Mr Khumalo that question.  You may apply to reopen.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you your Worship, I therefore apply for opening of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's granted, you may put that question to him.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you.
	Mr Nyawose, now that you've divulged all your participation and your role in the attacks during the killing of Mr Cele and the attempted murder of Mr Ngcobo, how do you feel now?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: I have great regrets and I realise the one thing that what I've done I've done it because I was heartbroken and it wasn't so necessary.  I regret whatever I've done and I feel remorse.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Mr Nyawose, have you met any of the victims which are involved in this incident?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: If you could please repeat that for me?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Have you met any of the victims involved in this incident?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I have.

MR MOLOHLANYE: How is your relationship or what did you say to them or how do you relate ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, you applied to reopen your evidence in chief and I granted you that indulgence.  It was for only one question.  You have exhausted that one question.  I don't think this Committee can really be burdened about the relation that he has with the victims.  It is common knowledge, it is known to all and sundry that this process is about reconciliation but pertinently we have to be satisfied with regard to whether the applicant in this case, Mr Khumalo, has made a full disclosure and whether the evidence complies with the requirements of Section 20, that is what we have to do.  If he wishes to speak to the victims which we will always encourage as a Committee, because we are about reconciliation, he is free to do so.  This can be facilitated by our logistics officer, Joe is here around, he can facilitate that, Melani is here, he can facilitate that, we always encourage that but that need not really form part of the record.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson, I'll withdraw my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan would like to ask Mr Khumalo one
question which might impinge on what you wanted to elicit from Mr Khumalo.

MR MALAN: Mr Nyawose, have you since met Goodman Ngcobo, Sitombe Ngcobo?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is he in the same prison with you?