Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR BERGER: How many of the ANC guards at the corner there of Plein and King George did you see opening fire on the crowd?

J M S POTGIETER: I'm not entirely certain, but I would say about 10 to 15 people, I'm not certain.

MR BERGER: Between 5 and 10?

J M S POTGIETER: Approximately 10, between 10 to 15, give or take a number of people, I'm not certain.

MR BERGER: This person, Mr von Eggedy, says that the marchers were waving their weapons around and that they commenced coming down towards the corner of Plein and King George, or towards Plein Street, on full charge in the manner of carrying out an attack.

J M S POTGIETER: No, they toyi-toyied, it was a sort of a jogging-walking motion, it wasn't a sprint that they ran, it was a sort of dance.

MR BERGER: Surely if you never even saw Mr von Eggedy, you can't dispute his evidence as to what was happening at the critical time Sergeant Potgieter.

J M S POTGIETER: I didn't see Mr von Eggedy, I don't know what he saw.

MR BERGER: Mr von Eggedy too was injured as the marcher overran him.

J M S POTGIETER: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: He is seen on TV with blood streaming down his face.

J M S POTGIETER: I don't know, I only saw the photos during the inquest.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Sergeant Potgieter, that as the marchers - as you saw the marchers ignoring Sergeant van Reenen and Van Greenen, and as they began their attack, that you ran around the corner for your own safety?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Did you ever run around the corner for your own safety?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say in paragraph 9 - I beg your pardon, paragraph 8 of your affidavit, it's at page 14 of Bundle E, you say, I will translate from Afrikaans to English
"The Zulus then pushed Sergeant van Greenen and Van Reenen out of the road and moved closer to Shell House.  One of the people who stood there with me shouted that they were going to shoot - that he was going to shoot, which he did."
Well while we're at that point, I put it to you that that never happened.

J M S POTGIETER: A shot was fired, I can't remember seeing a specific person firing that shot.  One shot was fired and then the gross shooting began.

MR BERGER: After - what I'm putting to you, I'm not putting to you that there wasn't shooting, I'm putting to you that he didn't shout "we're now going to shoot", and then shoot.

J M S POTGIETER: That happened.

MR BERGER: "After he started shooting everyone was standing around him began shooting with shotguns", which you don't remember anymore, "pistols, and the person with the AK47 started firing with automatic fire."

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You'll agree with me at least if I put it to you that there were no shotguns at that corner?

J M S POTGIETER: I can't remember that.

MR BERGER: "There was also a person on the balcony of Shell House who began to shoot at the Zulus with a shotgun."

J M S POTGIETER: I can't remember that.

MR BERGER: Well, I can tell you that there were four people on the balcony, and as far as shotguns are concerned, there were three people who fired shotguns on the balcony.

J M S POTGIETER: Probably, I don't know.

MR BERGER: And then this is the part that I wanted to read to you
"I saw" - and I'll read it in Afrikaans, "Ek het gesien dat van die Zulus val en het toe om die hoek beweeg vir veiligheid en het toe om die gebou beweeg om te sien of ek hulp aan die ander twee lede kan bied."

J M S POTGIETER: That was the during the inquest, I can't remember why safety was put down there.  Where I was standing there was no danger to me in my direction.  I just moved around the building to see whether I could offer assistance to the other two members.

MR BERGER: So when you say here that "I moved around the corner for safety", you cannot explain why that appears in the affidavit?

J M S POTGIETER: No, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Isn't it because you are a little embarrassed, and really there's no reason to be embarrassed ...

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: To admit that things were actually frightening at that time, and that you did what any person would have done in your position, and that was to just get around the corner for safety.

J M S POTGIETER: No, the Zulus were approximately 50 paces away from us.  On that corner there was no danger because I heard no shots from that side, or experienced any danger from that side in my direction.

MR BERGER: You see because if you had gone around the corner for safety, that would explain why you didn't see Mr von Eggedy; that would explain why you didn't see the man with the AK47 infront of Mr Diaz's shop;  that would explain why you didn't see any shots being fired at Shell House by the marchers, it would explain a whole lot of things if you would just explain what is in here in your affidavit that you went around the corner for safety.

J M S POTGIETER: Sir I didn't see any white man, I didn't see anybody running in front of the shop with an AK47, I didn't run away to seek safety.

MR BERGER: You also said in your evidence at the inquest that after you'd gone around the corner from King George to - along Plein to Klein and then up to De Villiers, and then round again to the corner of King George and De Villiers, that you spent three quarters of an hour on that corner, you recall that evidence?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And it was only after you'd spent that three quarters of an hour that you returned back to the corner of King George and Plein Street?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And we've dealt with this before, but I'm sure you know where I'm going ...

J M S POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: Paragraph 9 of your statement, of your affidavit, page 15, this is now after you've gone around the corner "vir veiligheid" and gone around the building to see if you can help anybody, you say
"...ek het later ongeveer 2 minute later terugbeweeg en het op die hoeke van Kleinstraat en Pleinstraat gaan staan."
Now you say that's not correct?

J M S POTGIETER: I don't know about the two minutes later, this entire paragraph is not part of my memory.

MR BERGER: We'll come to the rest of the paragraph, but this statement, this affidavit you signed three days after the incident, so these events were very fresh in your mind at that stage.

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, I can't remember.

MR BERGER: You see, the reason I'm going to suggest to you why you've now put yourself three quarters of an hour at the corner of King George and De Villiers is because, as you say, the rest of this paragraph wouldn't make any sense, but let me read it to you
"Daar het toe weer geweervuur vanuit die gebou regoor die Shell House gekom in die rigting waar die Zoeloes hulle bevind."

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Now that "gebou" would be the building above Nando's wouldn't it?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: "Een van die persone wat nog op die hoeke van Pleinstraat en King Georgestraat geskiet het vir die Zoeloes het na die deure van die Shell House beweeg ...",
this is now one of the ANC guards moves to the entrance of Shell House, the doors of Shell House, 
"... en met 'n haelgeweer na die gebou oorkant die Shell House waar die vuur vandaan kom, gevuur."
This person then runs to the entrance of Shell House, takes a shotgun and shoots at someone shooting out of the Nando's building.

J M S POTGIETER: I can't remember anything like that.

MR BERGER: You've had plenty of time to think how this - since I asked you these questions at the inquest, to think how this could possibly have come into your affidavit.

J M S POTGIETER: I still don't have an answer.

MR BERGER: Sorry Sergeant, just a few more questions.  Chairperson, I have no further questions to put to the witness, but my learned friend Miss Moroka has some questions, it relates to Lancet Hall, if she could just put these questions.  Thank you Sergeant Potgieter.