Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot remember that far back but it might be possible that I asked Hendrik but I can't remember it.  It is very possible that I asked him but at a later stage.

ADV DE JAGER: But you needed somebody and you have a potential candidate and you don't do anything to find out what happened to him.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I tried to explain to you how difficult it was to transfer people at that stage, I accepted that nothing would come of this application.

ADV DE JAGER: It was difficult to get transfers but it was also difficult for you to find somebody and one would accept that if you found somebody who is good, you would be eager to get that person.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I believe that I would have done that but I can't remember it, one's memory often leaves one in the lurch but there is merit in the question.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Did you not think of putting him on a sort of trial basis.  I know he was under the command of somebody else but would you just have taken him without first putting him on a trial basis to observe him and see how he does his job?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Then there would still be a process that had to be followed, he had to be selected, his background had to be checked and in the case of a private person, if he had a previous employee and his school had to be checked etc., and somebody like Ngo, we would have had to contact his commanding officer.  No person can be appointed on a trial basis in the security branch but if he had been cleared yes, then we could appoint him provisionally.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I wanted to find out was, normally if all those things happened, would you just - I mean if you interviewed him and you got good reports from the people that he previously worked with, would he first have to be put on a trial basis before he is formally appointed in the security branch.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I hope I understand you correctly, that if he had been selected and if he had been found all right, he would have been appointed provisionally.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he need clearance to join the riot unit, the riot squad?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I do not know how that unit worked, I cannot tell you anything about their internal operations.

ADV DE JAGER: In his interview, did he tell you that he had been from 1983 at the security branch at Bloemfontein?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Whether or not dates were mentioned, I cannot tell you.  He did tell me that he worked with the security branch as well as - he also told that to Bokaba who was in my presence.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.
	Now Colonel Loots, it is standard procedure before anyone is employed in the police force that a clearance is done irrespective of the unit that he's going to join, isn't it?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And it follows then that if he had joined the riot unit that he would have had a clearance before?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: The was a security clearance Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: The clearance that is required to join the police force is a security clearance, isn't it?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: There is a difference between security clearance and
clearance.  There's a difference or a distinction between working in the security branch and there's a different clearance that had to be done before a person could be sent to a training college, in other words, before he is accepted in the police.

ADV MEMANI: The clearance that you get before you join the police force involves an enquiry into your background, the schools you went to, your family, whether you parents or any relatives of your have got any previous convictions and whether specifically, anyone one them have had any politically related criminal convictions.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: All those things could be in there but I cannot remember the contents of such a clearance, I don't have anything like that before me.

ADV MEMANI: And the same enquiry is made in respect of people who want to join the security force, the security branch.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, but much more intensive.

ADV MEMANI: Now, during  your interview with Mr Ngo, did he tell you about Coetzee?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No.

ADV MEMANI: Did he tell you about Erasmus?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, I can make it easy, I think the only name he mentioned was that of Shaw.

ADV MEMANI: Did he tell you that he had been working with Lieutenant Shaw as an informer in Bloemfontein and also as a policemen in a sense?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot remember whether or not he named both or mentioned both - we talk about the beginning of '87, that's 10 years back.  It is very difficult to remember the contents or what happened at such an interview.

ADV MEMANI: And if he had told you about Lieutenant Shaw, whom you've said you knew very well, you would have contacted him and found out about Ngo?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And Shaw would have told you that he was a very good candidate.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: If that had been Shaw's opinion, he would have told me, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: And that opinion would have been based on his previous record with the Free State police?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: We can accept that.

ADV MEMANI: And that would have prompted you to be keen to recruit him?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, if he had been that kind of material according to the people in Bloemfontein then he would have been an appropriate candidate.

ADV MEMANI: And it is somewhat difficult to understand why, when you were short of a man in your unit - you said you were in an unfortunate position of having people who were about to retire, now you got a young zealous man who had worked with the police for 5 years or so and you just let the matter fizzle.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that.  I have said I requested him to put in his application and to see if it was approved so I could continue with that but such an application never reached my desk.

ADV MEMANI: But then one would have expected that you would have asked him and said: "Mr, you've given a good impression of me", you would have spoken to Lieutenant Shaw who would have told you that he's a positive man and you'd have been keen to recruit him, you would then have sent Bokaba back to him and said: "Bokaba, where's the man you brought to my office"?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, with all respect, Advocate de Jager has already asked me that question and I replied that it would have been premature to run ahead of the process, to do anything before an approved application had been received.

ADV MEMANI: Now, will you please have a look at Exhibit B66.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It is an SAP27, an enrolment.

ADV MEMANI: There's an entry of 4 December 1986 which says that he was at the riot unit, do you see that?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Riot squad head branch - yes, I see it.

ADV MEMANI: Furthermore it says that later on he was at Hammanskraal head office.

MR DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairman, that is not what it says.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it's for the witness to tell if I'm incorrect, he's a policeman, he understands the record.

MR DU PLESSIS: With respect Mr Chairman, he's not the author of the record but my learned friend should put the ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Well, is my learned friend the author of the record?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I'm not saying ...[intervention]