Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, if I might interject here, it's not that he said that he didn't know whether he was a member, that he wasn't he was a member of APLA, he didn't know whether he was a member of APLA at that stage, that was his evidence yesterday.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll leave it, I won't pursue that.
	Alright, on the following page 1246 I want to refer to about line 10, the answer as to the question of how Mr Jimmy Jones reacted when he was told about the incident at Mdantsane, that was the church at Mdantsane.  The answer was as follows
"As he was not known to me M'Lord, when he heard about that his facial expression was not so clear and also he continued now reprimanding them, saying why now after they had done that, what they are now telling him they've done at Mdantsane, they now choose to run to his place"
Do you remember Jimmy Jones saying that when you went to Butterworth?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No such thing was said.

MR PRIOR: And I continue at line 25 onwards  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying this was not said at the trial or that it was not said at Jimmy Jones' house?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: This was not said there at commander Jimmy Jones' place, perhaps about it having been spoken at the Court, I cannot disagree there.

MR PRIOR: I continue at line 25/26 onwards
"That Jimmy Jones said that they ran to him, that is to that place.  Are they not going to give"
that is your unit
"Are they not going to give people the impression that they are the people"
referring back to Jimmy Jones
"that they are the people who had sent them to do what they had done at Mdantsane"?
Let me maybe paraphrase that.  By going to Jimmy Jones at Butterworth and explaining what had happened at Bahai Church at Mdantsane, the impression was going to be created that it was Jimmy Jones who had sent the unit or your members and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't you read the next sentence as part, it's part of the passage isn't it?

MR PRIOR: I was going to come to that.
"And then he said to them he told them that the armed struggle has been amended"
that was cleared up, the actual word was "opelile" being "it's come to an end" or suspended.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Are you now asking whether I agree or disagree with what is written there?

MR PRIOR: Well, do you agree that it was said?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, at Butterworth or at the trial?

MR PRIOR: Obviously it was said at the trial because it's in the transcript of the record, it's obvious.  I'm asking, was that in fact true, did that happened?  Were those words said by - did Jimmy Jones say that?

MR LAX: Can I just clear this up.  Just for the record, he's already said that he can't remember what happened at the trial and so he accepts what is written in this transcript as being a reflection although he can't remember the exact words.  So let's not interject every time about where it was.  I certainly understand Mr Prior to be asking "Do you remember this"?  He's referring specifically at Butterworth.  Let's understand that as the context in which these questions are now being asked.  Do you understand?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I hear.

MR PRIOR: Yes, my question is, did that happen?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, it did not, no such thing happened.

MR PRIOR: I've no further questions of this witness.

MS GCABASHE: If I might just ask for clarity.  You will agree though that Mr Mbambo was with you when you went to report at Jimmy Jones' house after this incident?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: After we had attacked at the church, going back to the Transkei, when we got to Butterworth he, Africa Tjobane and Africa Tona, when we sent the report back they were not there.  It was myself, TNT, Kid and commander Jimmy Jones, they came later.
	At the time we were giving the report of the church, Africa Tona giving the report because he was involved.  Africa Tjobane came later after we had given all the report.

MR LAX: Are you saying then that in the light of that he wouldn't have been in a position to report any of this discussion because he couldn't possibly have heard this discussion, is that what you're saying?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He had no right to give a report back because he was not instructed to go there.  He was - the instruction was that he must come with us to the Transkei.

MR LAX: No, you misunderstand me completely.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Was he not in any way present when you reported back on the Mdantsane operation at the Bahai Church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, he was not there.

MR LAX: Was he not there when the question of his presence was discussed?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He was there when we were explaining that here is the person we were told must come back with, after having reported about all the missions we were instructed about.

MS GCABASHE: Where was he on the first occasion, where did you leave him when it was just you, TNT, Tona and Kid at JJ's house?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He was in the house but in another room.

MS GCABASHE: And then he was fetched from that room when you went to show him to Jimmy Jones, is that what you're saying, it's only then that he met Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

NTONGA: Mr Ncamazana, when did you join PAC or APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I joined the PAC about 1992.

MR NTONGA: And when did you become a member of APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: 1993.

MR NTONGA: In your evidence you said that, actually in your affidavit you say that in the trial you did not tell everything correctly or the truth and you explained in this Commission that you did so to protect your commanders, am I correct about that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: By that, are you saying that in that trial, that is the East London one, I don't want to confuse you, you did not mention your commanders in the trial?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I never mentioned their names.

MR NTONGA: Were they ever mentioned by your co-accused at the trial in East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Their names appeared but I did not know about who talked about their names.

MR NTONGA: So in other words no protection was given to them because their names are part of the record in the criminal trial in the Supreme Court in East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I said, I tried my best in my testimony to protect him.

MR NTONGA: Okay, let's leave that.  I assume that you know the structure of APLA as a former APLA cadre?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: Will I be correct to say that you have the high command, thereafter the regional command, thereafter the operational command, the base command and lastly the unit command?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And this structure is used in order to relay or to take instructions strictly?  It's  used in that manner from the unit commander, base commander, OC, regional command and high command, that's how you use it?

MR LAX: Sorry, do you not mean the other way around, commands are usually issued downwards rather than upwards?

MR NTONGA: Is that correct, that the instructions come from the high command down until the man on the ground?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that's how it operates.

MR NTONGA: Is it possible for you to tell us what rank did Jimmy Jones hold in this structure?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He was above the camp commander.

MR NTONGA: I see.  And the base commander was Jimmy Malinga?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And the commander of the  unit of which you were a member was TNT?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: Let's come to something else.  After you were convicted and sentenced in East London you completed a form applying for amnesty, remember?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: At this stage you had already been convicted and you are now making a full disclosure to the Commission to consider amnesty and you had to reply to certain questions in the form, remember that?