Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR SIBANYONI: So if I may perhaps a leading question, the impression you got was that she was under captivity, she was always under your control, under the control of the police?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believed that.  I had that idea that this person is not free, she's under the police guard because one of those reasons is that I was given that responsibility to guard her.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were aware that Jantjie and Jagga were using her as an informer, would an informer be guarded in the way you did?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Something was happening at that time.  As I've already explained earlier, some of the informers which were handled by these three people, I know some and I did not know some of them, so I did not know the position of Betty Boom and the reasons behind why she should be guarded at all times.

CHAIRPERSON: No, if you have regard to paragraph 11 on page  ...(end of side A of tape)
"... had recruited Betty Boom as an informer in Lesotho."
What were you aware of, what information was she giving if she has to be guarded the way she was?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was informed by Jantjie that Betty Boom was one of their informers.

CHAIRPERSON: So was it not surprising to you that you had to guard somebody who was giving information to the intelligence community in Ladybrand?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, as I've already stated that I knew some of them and I did not know some of them.  I would explain further by saying that it may be one of the ways which they used to speak with their informers, because I was new in that unit, therefore I did not know everything.

CHAIRPERSON: When you joined this unit, how long before this incident did you join?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I joined this unit two years in the Special Branch, but I started to work with this unit at the beginning of 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately when, because we know this happened in December and you remembered this precisely because your son had been baptised during December, how long before December?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would say it's seven months before, with this unit which was working in Lesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Before you do, just one last thing on this issue that worries me.
	You've told us this person came to the car voluntarily, she got into the car of her own free will, right?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now why was it necessary to guard someone who did that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I would repeat, as a new person in that unit and then again Betty was an informer of other gentlemen, I did not have a full knowledge about her status.  Therefore, I just received instructions from them, then I executed them.

MR LAX: But you see, that's not correct what you're telling us, because you've already told us two things that changed that.  You've told us, one, that you were told that she was an informer, you've told us secondly, that you were going to accompany them to fetch her, and you've told us thirdly, that it was a voluntary fetching on her part.  So you already knew she was an informer before you went to Lesotho to fetch her.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I want to clarify this issue.  I was told about Betty Boom, that she was an informer, but I did not accompany these people when they were going to contact her.  Then she came to the car at her free will because she had contact with them before.  And then for her to come to the farm and be under my guard, I want to explain to the Chairperson that I did not know the situation or the reasons behind that instruction which I was given to guard her.

MR LAX: Just one last thing before you carry on, Mr Visser.
	Who else came to guard?  You've said that when you wanted to go somewhere you would tell your superiors and they would make sure someone else came to guard her.  Who else came to guard her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I would tell Mr Jantjie, I did not have the identity of the person who would come and take my place, because I would just tell Mr Jantjie and leave immediately.

MR LAX: But you see you've already told us that you guarded her when the three of them were not present.  So who did you contact when they were not present when you had to go away?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, maybe you did not understand me.  When I mentioned that when they were not present, I would say there were two rooms, at a time they would be with Betty Boom in a particular room, then I will be at a particular room.  At a time they would leave and then I would say if they were not in that particular room, not that they were absent from the farm, but from the particular room where Betty Boom was.

MR LAX: Well you see, your evidence before was that they had to go and do other things.

MR VISSER: No, I think there's a misunderstanding, Chairperson, he said that sometimes he had to go and do other things.

MR LAX: No, no, no.

MR VISSER: Well that's how I heard it.

MR LAX: He said the reason he had to guard her was in their absence, they had to go and do other business and other work.  That was his evidence.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I still want to clarify this position.  When I mentioned that, when I said when they were not there, I meant when they were not in the room where Betty Boom was, but they were still within the vicinity of the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you mentioned "when they were doing other duties I would guard her", you mean duties within that farm, or what do you mean?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I did not say outside the farm or outside the house, I would say at the time when they were outside Betty Boom's room they would go somewhere within the building, but I did not say outside the house or outside the farm.  I would say they would go and do their business, but I did not know exactly what they were doing or what they were talking about, but outside the room where Betty Boom was, but not outside the house, not outside the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you mean then on paragraph 9, 29C
"In order to collect information, I and my colleagues had already established various informers in Lesotho since 1985, from whom we received valuable information."
I'm asking you this because you answered that you joined this unit approximately seven months before this incident.  That question is based on that.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If I understood your question, I arrived at the branch in 1985, but I was not within the unit which worked in Lesotho.  I joined that unit in 1987.  That was my explanation.  I wanted to say there were informers which were handled by this unit which was working in Lesotho. and when I arrived there I was given some of them to use them.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you this because immediately if you look at paragraph 10 on the same page, you say, after saying you had these various informers who gave you valuable information, you come back and say in paragraph 10 immediately
"Sometimes I visited bars with Jantjie and Jagga, where we would make very valuable connections with the activists."

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I request that you repeat your question, I did not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: I say why I asked you that, you said you joined this unit of the other three and you became the fourth person, but in the supplementary affidavit before me, on page 29C, 9, it says you had various informers in Lesotho since 1985, and you proceed into paragraph 10 and it say you made frequent visits with Jantjie and Jagga to drinking places, bars - let me put it in perspective, where you had connections and obtained valuable information from activists, or made contact with activists.