Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

PROF DE KOKER: It might perhaps be easier if I continue in Afrikaans, it you find it more comfortable and you might exclude any translation problems.
	Did you know the day before of this march or did you hear about it that morning?

WALTER SMILES: I heard that afternoon.

PROF DE KOKER: That was the afternoon beforehand?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: What did you know of this march?

WALTER SMILES: What I knew was that memorandums would be presented concerning  the Bophuthatswana Administration.

PROF DE KOKER: What were your movements on that morning of the incident?

WALTER SMILES: Could you just explain that please?

PROF DE KOKER: What did you do that morning before the incident?  Where were you?  When did you join the march?

WALTER SMILES: I was in the street and I sat at the four-way tickey stop and I waited for the march - that was our main place.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you sit there until the march arrived?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I sat there until my commander came to pick me up.

PROF DE KOKER: And then got with him into the motor - you said there were three people.

WALTER SMILES: Yes, it was myself, it was the Major and I forgot the other person's name - I will in fact be able to recognise him.

PROF DE KOKER: When did you get to the instruction to throw the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: That was on the same day in the car.

PROF DE KOKER: Was it the same day or was it during that drive?

WALTER SMILES: It was during the same day, it was the same day.

PROF DE KOKER: It wasn't immediately when you got into the car?

WALTER SMILES: No, I got my instructions in the car.

PROF DE KOKER: Could I just perhaps make this clearer - I want to get you the chronology of the incidents, I want to know how everything fits together.  You got into the car with Major Mbatha and an unknown third person, how long were you travelling around before he gave you the instruction?  Where exactly in town because you were now travelling in this car, where did he give you the instruction?

WALTER SMILES: I got into the car, we went to the Arena where the whole march assembled.

PROF DE KOKER: As I understand it you sat on the wall when the march got there - when the people arrived, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: Just explain please.

PROF DE KOKER: As I understood it, is that you sat on the wall until the march passed you and then the car also passed you?

WALTER SMILES: No, the march did not yet arrive - I sat, the car came and it picked me up.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Professor de Koker, when has he said that he sat on the wall - that's not what he has stated before us?  Are you not referring to the evidence which was led before the HRV Committee?

PROF DE KOKER: I am following that evidence to compare it with the evidence given to us today.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think you've got to make it simpler to Mr Smiles by stating that to him, we are also getting confused because I thought you were referring to the evidence which has been led before us today.

PROF DE KOKER: Actually, what I was trying to do was to clarify the issue because the statements made this afternoon was not very clear as to the chronology or events and that is what I'm trying to clarify before perhaps taking up issues which are at variance with one another.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, I understand that, it's just that it wasn't clear to him that you were clarifying issues.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much.   Mr Smiles, I am still trying to exactly clarify what you did there that morning.  According to your evidence given today, you sat at tickey stop - there was a seat?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's correct.

PROF DE KOKER: You were then picked up by the Major in the car?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened then?

WALTER SMILES: We then drove off to the point where the marchers assembled to go to the Bophuthatswana Consulate.

PROF DE KOKER: And where is this specific point that you're now referring to?

WALTER SMILES: That is the arena that is in the Black township in Vergenoeg.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened then?

WALTER SMILES: We then drove behind the march, we drove with them up to the OK - that's the four-way tickey stop that's in town.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened then?

WALTER SMILES: I got out with the white bag and in the white bag there was a hand grenade.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you get out of the car with the white bag?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct, I got the white bag and that is with what I got out.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you get it?

WALTER SMILES: I got it from my commander.

PROF DE KOKER: Who was driving the car at that stage?

WALTER SMILES: It's the same person that I can't remember.

PROF DE KOKER: The instruction was given while this person was driving the car, Major Mbatha was in the car and you?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's correct

PROF DE KOKER: And according to you there were three people who were aware of this instruction to you, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: No.

PROF DE KOKER: Could you just explain that?

WALTER SMILES: I would actually want you to give the answer to me.

ADV DE JAGER: I think what the Advocate is asking you is that you said the three of you were in the car and you also say that in the car you got the instruction to throw the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, the Advocate says to you: "So you knew about it, the Major knew about it and the driver of the car knew about the instruction"?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So, the three of you knew about that?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: According to the evidence of Mr Mbatha, only you and him had any knowledge of this instruction, is that correct - this statement that was made?  Did only you and Major Mbatha have any knowledge about this instruction as testified by Major Mbatha or did you, Major Mbatha and the unknown driver of this car know of this instruction?

WALTER SMILES: I got the instruction from Mbatha.

PROF DE KOKER: In the presence of a third person?

WALTER SMILES: Yes that is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: Who now also had knowledge of this?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: At this stage as I understand it, you were at the OK building when you got out of the car with this bag, how far is the OK building from the Trust Bank building?

WALTER SMILES: It's some distance, I don't really know - it's a few street blocks.

PROF DE KOKER: What did you do there?

WALTER SMILES: I walked with the march and this bag.  I took the hand grenade from the bag so that I could not be seen - we don't trust anyone, we didn't trust anyone at that stage.

PROF DE KOKER: Where did you put the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: I put it under my T-shirt.

PROF DE KOKER: Under your T-shirt?

WALTER SMILES: Under my shirt.

PROF DE KOKER: But you had on a T-shirt?

WALTER SMILES: I had on a T-shirt.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you conceal this hand grenade under a T-shirt because I don't follow that.

WALTER SMILES: I had on a T-shirt that is a skippa, I didn't have a shirt and I put it over here so if I put it in from the top it can't fall out.

PROF DE KOKER: What did you have to do during this march?  Were you a marshall?

WALTER SMILES: I acted as a peacemaker.

PROF DE KOKER: But you also said that you were a marshall regarding this march, did you act as a marshall during this act?

WALTER SMILES: No, I acted as somebody who had an order to execute.

PROF DE KOKER: So, you did not act as a marshall during this march?

WALTER SMILES: I was - I didn't act like a marshall, I was a marshall in 1990 - in 1993 I was in the MK.

PROF DE KOKER: The march proceeded up to the Trust Bank building, how many memo's were handed over?

WALTER SMILES: As far as I can remember, there were three.  I can't remember whether it's three or four and then it was time to prime the hand grenade and I knew that the people were going to turn back.