Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-30

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Just one area of re-examination.
	Mr Mlaba, you have indicated to the Committee that you killed this person by use of a G3 rifle, is that in fact correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us exactly how you shot the deceased, and the deceased that I am referring to in this matter is the deceased Mkhize?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I shot him on the thigh as well as on the chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that in automatic mode, how many shots were fired?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: It was a single shot?

CHAIRPERSON: Two single shots?  It wasn't (indistinct)

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, two single shots.

MR WILLS: Are you in a position to say whether or not you heard your co-accused or the State witness, the person who later turned State witness, that is Filo Mandla Mthetwa, did he fire any shots at that stage, can you remember?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, I did hear.

MR WILLS: Do you know where his shots were directed?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He was on my left and he was shooting, pointing his firearm towards Mlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills to interrupt, but it has just entered my mind, Filo, where is he now?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: From what I hear, I hear that he is now deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Wills, you can continue.

MR WILLS: Is it possible that Filo could have shot some shots in the direction of the deceased in count 1, that is Mkhize?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I don't remember.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR LAX: Just one thing arising.  How many shots did Filo shoot?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I heard the gun going off once.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: I don't Mr Chairman, but if Mr Chairman would allow me to ask one aspect that I did not ask earlier on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and then I will give Mr Wills an opportunity to re-examine after that.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mlaba, you say before the deceased were killed, you went and you spoke to Mr Linda Xaba, is that correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: And I don't know whether I heard you correctly, but you say he said that you should deal with the deceased accordingly.  Did you say something like that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: As an MK Commander, when I reported to Mr Xaba, he said such a person is killed or is terminated.

MS THABETE: So would it be correct for me to say Linda Xaba instructed you to go ahead and murder the deceased?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: No, that is not so.

MS THABETE: What do you mean then when you say he said that you have to deal with, you have to kill people who were spies?  What do you mean?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is what he said from the knowledge that he had.  He did not specifically say that I should go and kill Mr Mkhize, but what he said is that such a person, who behaves in that manner, is normally killed.

MS THABETE: So would it be correct for me to say that you decided on your own to kill the deceased?  No one instructed you?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: It was my decision that if a person has indeed been that troublesome, he should be killed.

MS THABETE: I don't know whether you are answering my question, are you saying that yes, you did take the decision to kill the deceased without any instructions given to you?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I took the decision with Filo.

MS THABETE: In your application, it is page 483 of the bundle, number 11(a), you say the matter was reported to my Commander Linda Godffrey Xaba but because he was unable to investigate the issue, I took the decision to kill Mkhize.
	You did not say you and Filo Mandla took the decision to kill Mr Mkhize.  What do you have to say about that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I said so because I was with him when we took the decision, or when I took the decision to kill Nhlamvu Mkhize.

MS THABETE: When you are talking about taking a decision, you mean at that place of incident, you took a decision to kill Mkhize, not before?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I am referring to the decision to kill Mkhize.

MS THABETE: No my question is, are you talking about a decision you took before you actually went to Lungisani's place, because if I should refresh your memory you said when you went to Lungisani's place, you had already decided that you were going to kill Nhlamvu Mkhize.  You did not decide at Lungisani's place, do you remember?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MS THABETE: What I am asking you is, that decision that you took before you went to Lungisani's place, would it be correct for me to say no one instructed you, you decided to take that decision by yourself?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: A trained person has to command himself or herself if the situation calls for it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mlaba, just on that.  You say you were a member of the kwaXemba Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Commander of that Unit if there was one at all?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I was the Commander.

MR LAX: Just before you continue, if you will allow me.  Why didn't you speak to Nkosi Mlaba about this, and say to him, we've got this troublesome man here, he is a spy, can we go ahead?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: It was not easy to report such a matter to Chief Mlaba.  He is a traditional leader and we were bodyguards.  I actually was responsible for deciding which action to take if there was a troublesome person.
	The police, we were not the eventual targets, because after dealing with us, the police would have gone further and went after Chief Mlaba.

MR LAX: You see, in the trial, there is some evidence that you and Nkosi Mlaba arrived at Nqabe's place and you tried to impress upon Nqabe that he should keep quiet, that he shouldn't report you and reveal you to the police.  That was never contested in the trial, that evidence?
	You did involve him in the matter?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: As I am explaining, the person who was really being sought after was Chief Mlaba.  This was the design of the police who wanted Chief Mlaba dead, because he has organised the people under the ANC.

MR LAX: Just as an aside, is it correct that his father was assassinated, isn't it?  The Chief's father?  Or his older brother, is that right?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: It is my older brother.

MS THABETE: Can I continue?  Actually that was my next question to you and I would like you to repeat the answer.  Why did you not inform Chief Mlaba?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: As I explained, it would not have been easy because he is a leader.  We were responsible for protecting him, and we should have done our job of protecting him before the enemy got to him.

MS THABETE: I refer the Committee members to page 9 of the judgement, it is line 25.
	When you were asked why you did not tell Chief Mlaba you said, or the judgement reads his statement, the he refers to you, his statement that he thought he might be regarded as an informer if he had done so, is simply not acceptable.	
	Is it correct that you had told the Court that you did not want to tell Chief Mlaba what had happened, because you thought you might be regarded as an informer?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That was the response that I should have given in court, because everything else was in disarray, I had no other option, but to give such an answer.

MS THABETE: Are you saying that you lied in court?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, that is what it means.

CHAIRPERSON: Any more questions?