Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

MR MARTINI: Now I just want to go back while we're dealing with Harms, to certain testimony of Mr Verster this morning which possibly you can enlighten us on.  You heard the evidence of Mr Verster, he gave testimony today to the effect that he said that Gen Badenhorst had said "Leave van Zyl out", and thereafter he went on to say that "van Zyl told me", words to the effect that you would thank him, that Verster would thank you one day for what had happened at the Harms Commission.
	Now Mr Chairperson, I don't remember the exact words in the Afrikaans, but I understand that was the context, the meaning of his words.  The gist. 
	Now in what context were those words said to you?  Did you say those words to Mr Verster?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, I did say those words to Verster and I said them in the context of - there was a difference of opinion between Verster and myself regarding my evidence, he wanted me to use my right to privilege and I didn't want to do that, and it was within this context that I told him that he would one day thank me for the fact that I so open-heatedly testified in this regard.

MR MARTINI: Now when did you resign from the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Approximately the 20th or 23rd of October 1989 I resigned from the CCB.

MR MARTINI: Now when you resigned, were you given any packages, financial packages of any kind?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, it happened quite quickly, the vehicle that I used while I was working for the CCB, I gave back, as my evidence said, the safe I bought from them and the shredding machine I bought from them.  I received no package from them, from the CCB, and I also received no pension from the Defence Force.  I gave up all my salaries and my benefits.

CHAIRPERSON: So that money that you used with your first production bonus that you said you'd put in for a pension, was that in a personal endowment-type policy or some other sort of policy, retirement annuity police?  What happened to that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, that was a sort of a retirement policy and this policy then expired because I could not follow it up after I resigned from the CCB.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Now I want to deal with that.  There's been suggestions in the cross-examination of Mr Verster and suggestions by certain cross-examination by Mr Hockey, more particularly dealing with your statement, I think it was at page 115, that you stole money or you committed - it was implicit from the question put, that money was stolen and I think it's related to pages 115, relating to you being told by the "Streekbestuurder" to keep R5 000 for yourself.  Now have you ever stolen any money from the CCB organisation whilst you were employed there or after you resigned?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can we use the word "unlawful appropriate", steal might be ...(inaudible) legally interpreted.  Did you in any way unlawfully appropriate monies from the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I would like to answer no, and I will explain as follows.  I was not authorised to incur expenses that were related to Ferdi Barnard, I did that in consultation with my own discretion.  Ferdi Barnard upon three occasions flew from Jo'burg to Cape Town and he stayed for quite a while to help me with the monitoring of the Omar project.  The only way in which I could see my way clear to pay for the expenses in this regard, was either to go and speak to Staal Burger in this regard, but when the opportunity presented itself after the explosion at the Early Learning Centre and he told me that I could keep R5 000 for myself, and I do not know if he meant it that I could just take it and whether this was a sort of a bonus.  I should actually, according to my calculations, have given R20 000 to Gakie(?), the additional R2 000 of this amount I took so that I could then give the full amount of R10 000 back to the CCB.  So on my own discretion I spent R7 000 of the State's money on Ferdi Barnard, which was not authorised but this was not money that I in any way used for my own personal gain.

MR MARTINI: Was that R7 000 spent on projects of the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It was specifically used for the project of Omar.

MR MARTINI: Now Mr van Zyl, we know from the evidence that ultimately from Mattheysen, the operatives in Region 6 were to set up their own businesses, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now did you perform such an act, did you set up your own business whilst in the employ of the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, we reached a stage where the cover that Mattheysen Bus Transport should have given us was served out or not appropriate anymore and accordingly I decided to get my own cover and I started a business which was called Incom, I-n-c-o-m Investigations.  I was planning it that this cover would be managed as a private investigation agency.  I started it, and this business was situated in Sandton.  I received a monthly amount from the organisation in the form of about R2 000 per month, which would then go to the payment of the renting of offices.

MR MARTINI: When did you start that business?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: This business was started approximately June/July 1989.

MR MARTINI: When you started that business, did you get given a lump sum payment to buy any capital assets or any other assets for that business? - from the CCB.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: But the CCB paid for certain expenses, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The CCB covered the normal monthly expenses like the renting of offices and telephone accounts and secretarial services.  I did not have my own secretary, the office was situated inside a business management building where the secretary could be found.

MR MARTINI: Now how long had you been running this business before you resigned from the CCB organisation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The business existed for about four months before I resigned from the CCB.  But I have to add that as a result of our activities it was at that stage not possible to actively manage the blue plan, and it was for this aim that I then thought to approach a colleague, Ben van Zyl, so that he could do investigation work for me with the blue plan business to in this way, give me an opportunity to actively continue my red plan activities.

MR MARTINI: Now you heard the evidence under cross - or the suggestions - let me rephrase myself, by Mr Bizos that certain operatives got themselves businesses, well was this business worth anything?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, the business had no value, that business is managed by me today and it is so that it is a very successful business, but I can give you the assurance that there is no relation between the CCB or the current government or State system.

CHAIRPERSON: When you started that business, did you buy an existing business called Incom Investigations, or did you start it from scratch?  Did you form a company, did you register a company or a CC or what?  When you talk about business, what was the legal nature of it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was quite simple, it was only a close corporation that was formed and I was the only member of such a corporation.  The close corporation had no assets at all and to be able to start the close corporation, at that time only cost R400.

MR MARTINI: While we're on the business, can you explain - are you still conducting this business today?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, I'm still involved at present with the investigation of criminal matters on a private basis and I also have security businesses.

MR MARTINI: Now in that security business, you say - the way I understand you, your business comprises of an investigative unit and furnishing security, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now in your security section, do you employ people?