Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR MEYER: What was the reason that you made the false statement?

MR RAMALIGELA: The idea was that we will go to court and refuse that we assaulted them while we were interrogating them, and doing civil claim.

MR MEYER: So do I understand you correctly, you wanted to defeat the civil claim at this stage already saying that they were not tortured or assaulted or ill-treated.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Now Director if you, you have now testified before the panel on the acts that you committed and it's clear that you seriously assaulted the detainees, some of them, you tortured them.  How do you feel about what you did as you sit here today?

MR RAMALIGELA: From my heart, myself, as I'm now telling the truth, I am feeling that I have tortured other people severely, to such an extent that to all that I've mentioned and their families, I'm requesting that they let them forgive me.  There was nothing that I was doing because I was intending to gain personally, but it was because of the deeds of the Government of the day.
	Coming to Dr Farisani, I'm quite sure that truly he will forgive me, because I still remember that last week Tuesday he requested me to stand up while we were burying my brother that to tell in the public that I was being used by the previous government.  Today, as he was speaking today, he said, 'we will be forgiving each other in Tzaneen on the 4th and 5th.'

MR MEYER: Is there anything else you would like to say to the victims of the tortures and assaults?

MR RAMALIGELA: There is nothing which I could say.

MR MEYER: Nothing further at this stage.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Meyer.  Mr van Rensburg are there any questions you would like to ask this applicant?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I have no questions to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg.  Ms Mtanga, are there any questions you would like to ask this application?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.  Thank you.  Mr Ramaligela, I would like to ask a question regarding your torture of Mr Poswana, Reverend Poswana.  Reverend Poswana has indicated that if a person walked into the interrogation room when you were interrogating him and torturing him, they would have found blood on his body and blood on the floor and hair on the floor.  Where would that hair have come from?

MR RAMALIGELA: I cannot understand your question properly.  You said one person entered my room in which we were interrogating people, blood and hairs were found on the floor or this he came and found them in the office.  I can't understand your question clearly.

MS MTANGA: If a person walked in while you were interrogating Mr Poswana, the person would have found his blood, his hair on the floor, so I'm asking where would that hair have come from, because you haven't indicated here that you did anything to his hair?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I can't recall exactly what was discovered, but anyway we used to beat them in that room.  It is quite possible that the blood could have been evident.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he is getting at here, is it going to be put, Ms Mtanga, that Reverend Poswana had hair removed, bodily hair, either shaved or taken out of his body and it was lying on the ground, not just one little piece of hair, but a substantial amount of hair.  Do you know anything about that?  Was hair taken off his body either by shaving or pulling it or cutting it, do you know anything about the removal of hair from the body of Reverend Poswana during the course of the torturing?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  Pardon me for that, yes we did pull his hair and we were just throwing them down.  It is true.

MS MTANGA: Where did you pull the hair from?

MR RAMALIGELA: From the head.  The top of his head or on the head.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaligela, did you only pull the hair from his head only?

MR RAMALIGELA: (Replied in Venda - no translation)

SISI KHAMPEPE: How was this hair pull out of his head?  Can you explain?

MR RAMALIGELA: He had long hair and we were just pulling and the beards were very long, and we just pulled, and struck, pushed him down.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What did you use?  Did you your hand?

MR RAMALIGELA: We would use our hands.

MS MTANGA: Would you agree that the same method of pulling hair was used on Mr Posiwa, and it has left a scar on his head?

MR RAMALIGELA: I can't deny that, because I can't recall everything.  We would use anything, any object that was quite closer to us just to torture them.

MS MTANGA: You have also testified that Mr Poswana was interrogated and tortured for two days and on each day it was a maximum of two-and-a-half hours torture.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said it was longer than two-and-a-half.  Posiwa was two-and-a-half and he said that the torturing of Reverend Farisani was longer than two-and-a-half, but also over two days, but longer sessions.  He said he can't remember the exact length but it was longer.

MS MTANGA: Your description of 'longer' for Mr Poswana's torture, could it have been the whole day and partly the evening because that's his evidence he is going to be put to you?

MR RAMALIGELA: We started in the morning and we had a break in the middle and then we went on after lunch, but I don't think it went up to four o'clock in the evening, I can't tell you exactly how many hours, because we were not making use of the watch then.  I'm just speculating.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to dispute what Reverend Poswana might say about the duration of the torture he received?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I don't want to dispute that.  What I do agree that he may say a different version, this is just what I did exactly on him.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaligela, in your evidence regarding the applying of electrical shocks on the victims' bodies, you have denied that you used the shocks on their private parts.  Do you still maintain this?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, on private parts I didn't use anything in that regard, but we could use that on other side of the body.  With regard to private parts, that is quite respectful.  Even though we knew that is quite a torture we respected that.

MS MTANGA: You respected their private parts?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Do you deny that when you were torturing Dr Farisani you may him lie on his back with his hands up and legs up and you kicked him on his private parts, do you deny that?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to Dean Farisani, yes, I kicked him on his ribs.  Not on the private parts, I can't recall.  Personally I am saying exactly what I did on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is being put to you now that Dean Farisani was made to lie on his back with his hands in the air and he was kicked in his private parts.  That is being put to you.  That is the instructions that Ms Mtanga has received from Dean Farisani who she is representing as a victim.  Now what she is saying is, are her instructions correct?  Do you deny that?  Do you say "Well, I can't remember, I may have done that" or do you agree and say "yes I did do that"?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I do remember, but I can't remember exactly that I went further towards to the private part.  Yes I remember I did kick him, but I don't think really I remember very well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You have previously remembered that you kicked him on his back.  Is it possible that you could have kicked him somewhere else other than his back, like his private parts?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, that is possible.  It could have happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How is it possible that you are able to recall certain things and are unable to recall others?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, as it happened, as I said it happened a long time ago and in those days when one was working under pressure one couldn't just really remember everything because there was pressure behind us.  We were really asked as to what we were doing.  I can't really locate this and say this is how happened chronologically as somebody who is relaxed.