Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When I left I think there was no assault going on but I would not testify as to what happened during my absence.

MR MALAN: Can you just briefly summarise for us.  What information did you get form these youths and in what stage during the assault.  What did you discover first, how soon, what did you discover last and when did you get that information?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived and I saw this UDF T-shirt so that I concluded that these are the people with whom we were at war and we then started to find out as to seeing that they are UDF and SOSCO members, who are these people giving them instructions to burn people's house, membership of AZAZIM and killing leaders of AZAPO.  This is what we were trying to find out from the, who their leaders in their areas were.  It took some time for them to finally give us the names of some of the people.

MR MALAN: So you did not get any information from them that they indeed did burn comrade Jeff's house, that they specifically were responsible for the burning?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I would not say that there's anyone who told me that, but comrade Motlana indicated to me that the one person he was assaulting did agree that he was the one involved in the burning of Jeff's house.

MR MALAN: When did he tell you that?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: This is something that I had known since I have been living together with him or since I have been interacting with him over the years.

MR MALAN: So this is way after the - you didn't find that out on that day already.  You didn't know of it on that day.  You only learned that from what Motlana since after the arrest.  Is that what your answer comes to?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No I thought you wanted to know as to for how long I have known this information.  I knew this when I arrived at Orlando when we arrived coming back from town.

MR MALAN: When you went to fetch the car?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: So did Motlana then tell you that one of the persons that he assaulted agreed that he did burn comrade Jeff's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just one last question Mr Thandakubona.  Do you
have any message to the families, what is your attitude now looking at it, at the whole incident, with hindsight, now with maturity after having grown, what would you say?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: The things that happened are so painful, maybe people died innocently and this was all because there was this squabble, the conflict between the different organisations and this would be enough for a person to be killed.  I know myself that we would be arrested for carrying out the horrendous deeds.  I would like to say that things happened in a very very bad way.  We believed that the political system was going to change.  I acknowledge as well that innocent blood was shed, I beg for apology.

MR TLOUBATLA: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla do you have witnesses to call or is this your case.

MR TLOUBATLA: This is my case Mr Chairman but the only thing that I've been requested by my clients is that should the committee wish to call AZAPO itself or any officials, they will be available but otherwise we are closing our case.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja well if (indistinct) we should do that, of course it should be understood that we do not run the case for the
applicants.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you that will be the case for the applicants, there is nothing ... (inaudible - end of tape)

CHAIRPERSON: There is some confusion to an extent about the name Sam, particularly as used in the indictment and at some point it could give the impression that Mr Mphoreng is also known as Sam and for that reason we would like to have Mr Mphoreng back into the witness box.  Mr Mphoreng would you please come back?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also known as Sam?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Sam is not my name.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, alright thank you.  I don't know if anybody would like to put questions, in fact I was asking this question within the context of the indictment, in particular the summary of material facts or substantial facts because there is a name which appears, Willie Edward Ndebele, Sam and then (Atasios Mphoreng) and ordinarily one - if there's some confusion here because if one had to apply the rules of grammar superficially one might think that Atasios Mphoreng means Sam but if you apply the rules of grammar strictly, if that were to be the case there would have been no comma after Sam so for that reason I thought that this witness should come back and if there is anybody wanting to ask him questions in that regard.  Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

MR TLOUBATLA: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR AMEEN: None from me either Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen you will appreciate that this aspect is of some importance, with regard to the proposition that you made.  You made to the applicants yesterday or day before, you suggested to them that they are only incriminating or mentioning the name of Sam and Tamee because they are dead so it would appear that in fact the name of Sam was mentioned, not for the first time at this proceedings, but most probably as long ago as when, at the very least, the indictment was put up.

MR AMEEN: My understanding is that the references to comrade Sam and comrade Tamee were to those two people who are deceased by these applicants and not to one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, not one of them but I'm saying that you put it to the applicants that - you suggested to the applicants - you remember, you opening words:  "If I may be sinister", "cynical" I'm sorry, your words were:  "If I may be cynical".

MR AMEEN: I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You remember those words?

MR AMEEN: Yes I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went on to suggest that Sam and Tamee were not involved, were not incriminated in some way but that they had just been put in now because they are dead.

MR AMEEN: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: Or perhaps to be more precise with your suggestion, I had understood that you were suggesting that they were just in general being incriminated now that they are dead.  I thought you went that far, but I'm told that you're merely saying that - you were restricting your remarks to the giving of the order.

MR AMEEN: To the giving of the order, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not want to go so far as to suggest that they are just being incriminated generally because they are dead.  It's not what you're saying?

MR AMEEN: If I can just summarise what my understanding is.  As far as the two survivors are concerned, comrade Sam and comrade Tamee - according to evidence of Mr Hlasa he was accompanied by comrade Sam and comrade Tamee and that is those three comrade Hlasa, Sam and Tamee, the late Sam, the late Tamee killed three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Two.

MR AMEEN: No killed three.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes as you see it, yes.

MR AMEEN: Can I just check this?

CHAIRPERSON: Well the number doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter, yes.

MR AMEEN: Alright.  And my point was that they were now being incriminated because they were dead and that this reference to Sam in these, in the summary of facts is probably to one of the applicants here.