Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

MRS GCABASHE: In your statement to referred to a party called Dikwankwetla.Can you tell us a bit what this party was all about?

WITNESS: I stayed in Thaba Nchufor quite a long time. I didn't have any place to stay for quite a long time, and every time I would go and find a place to stay theywould refer me to Qua-Qua. I didn't know anything connected to politics, I wanteda place to stay like a mother who's got children. I didn't want to be lodgingall over Thaba Nchu. Now, this Dikwankwetla party gave us a place to say inButsabelo, and I decided to join. There was no any good reason to follow thisparty, but I wanted a house to stay in and I joined them.

MRS GCABASHE: You stayed in Butsabelo?

WITNESS: Yes, we stayed in Butsabelo. Weare the first people to stay in Butsabelo.

MRS GCABASHE: You even further said that the children who threw stones atyour house, who burnt it, went to stay with the reverend, the father at theRoman Catholic Church. Do you remember the name of the father?

WITNESS: His nameis Mr Motsula.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, these children who burnt your house, did you have an ideaof whether they belonged to any party or not?

WITNESS: Yes, they were the ANC. Yes,they belonged to the ANC.

MRS GCABASHE: If I may ask you a question. Is there anything that you wouldlike the Commission to help you with, even if we don't have those powers? ---I lost so many things, and being a single woman without a husband I would requestthe Commission to help me with the house. I would like my house to be repaired,and if I can be given money so that I can buy the furniture that got damaged.Because even at the police station they have information regarding the valueof the furniture.

MRS GCABASHE: The last question that I have. The policemen you reported thismatter to, were they the Bophutatswana Police or the South African Police? Thepolice station that you went to report this matter to?

WITNESS: It was a policestation in Butsabelo.

MRS GCABASHE: Were they the South African Police or Bophutatswana Police?--- No, they were not Bophutatswana Police, they were Butsabelo Police.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you very much. We have listened to your story, and thenI will now take everything back to the Chairman so that he can conclude.

MRS GCABASHE: Mother, I just want to pursue that question which was askedby Mrs Virginia Gcabashe about the children who burnt your house and they werekept in the mission of a Roman Catholic father. What was the connection betweenthis father and the children? Do you know of any connection?

WITNESS: I don't know.I don't know their relationship. I was told by his child, because he woke upthe next morning early to come and tell me that the youths slept at his home.

MRS GCABASHE: Did this father know that these children were involved in burningpeople's houses?

WITNESS: I don't have any information. I don't know whether he knewthat these youths were burning houses.

MRS GCABASHE: You never complained to him, asked him why he was keeping thepeople who were burning?

WITNESS: I went to him. I went to him after receiving thenews that the youths slept over at his house. He also came to inspect my house,and I told him, "I heard that they were overnight at your place." He said, "Yes.While I was sleeping I heard a group of people getting into my house, into thebedroom where my children were sleeping," and he could hear them saying, "Canyou please switch the lights "off," and they switched the lights off. They all slept athis house.

MRS GCABASHE: To put the record straight maybe, so this was not the Catholicpriest. It was the Catholic elder, not the priest. Is that true?

WITNESS: It wasthe Catholic elder, not the priest.

CHAIRPERSON: We really feel with you for the tortures thatyou have been through, and we try to explain to people that this is a Commissionthat has been put in place to listen to the different stories of our country.We don't want to put anybody aside. We have to listen to both sides and thenwe have to understand that people suffered a lot and they were harassed. Someof them were harassed by the police, and some of them were harassed by the ANCand some other parties. As the Commission we have to find out the truth, andthen we have to listen to all people.  I am trying to say this, that evenif we are listening here we are not allowed that if a person belongs to a differentparty then people should now start groaning, because if that is the case I willhave to clear this hall, because we are here to listen to different storiesfrom different people. If a person is a Nationalist Party we have to listento him. If he is white we have to listen to him, because we say this is a Truthand Reconciliation Commission. You do not reconcile with your friend, you reconcilewith your friend you hated before. Now, the President of the country has putus here to listen to everybody. I am now requesting that we do not react whenwe hear the stories that we don't associate ourselves with. We don't have tofeel any bad at all.  By so saying I want to say to you, Mrs Matsunyane, that wefeel sorry for what you have been through. We don't mind which party you belongto, but you have the right to come before the Commission, you have the rightto get a sympathy from our side. As we have been saying throughout, we wouldask God to be with you, we would ask Him to console you. We want to thank you.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... to see you. You have a storyto tell about your son, who died in very mysterious circumstances, and we aregoing to listen very carefully to your story. It is a story full of grief, becauseto lose a son is very painful. I would ask you please to stand to take the oath.

ERICA DOREEN MOTSABE KOKUNSI: (Sworn, States)

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much indeed. Mrs Kokunsi,Dr Mgojo is going to lead you as you tell your story, and I hand over tohim now.

KHOZA MGOJO: Can you speak Zulu or Xhosa?

WITNESS: I speak Sotho.