Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR RANDERA: Dr Basson, can I just understand this list, and earlier on I think you said was that you're not aware of this list as such, but at the same time in the questions that you've been giving to us, it appears as if you were aware that these substances were being produced for research purposes as you say.   So let us understand how it works.  Cigarettes are produced with anthrax.  Where does it go to?  It's not being, research work, as I understand you, is not being done by Roodeplaats, where would you have actually contracted that out to, and to whom?

DR BASSON: Very well, Chairperson, the products, after they were produced at Roodeplaat, were then handled in different manners.   For example, in the case of the anthrax cigarettes, we had a laboratory at special quarters, headquarters, special forces headquarters, where we had certain equipment which made us capable of making pyrotechnic mixtures and to test them, and in this way we, by means of infiltration, this anthrax spoors in the cigarettes, we could then use the cigarettes with regards to the pyrotechnic method, it's a vacuum and it's lit and it would be sucked different ways cigarettes are sucked, and then we'd analyse the extraction of the smoke that came out of that.   Now Roodeplaat did not have the facilities for those kind of experiments.   The filters, or the extract products, after they were exposed to certain different temperatures and after they got older over certain periods, were then further analysed in laboratories.   I cannot remember which the specific laboratory was, but it was a pertinent part of this whole thing, we had different sub-components.   It could have happened at some or other university, it could have been at a private research institution, but it would have been completely unrelated to Roodeplaat and it would have been outside of context, and it sounds, and I'm scared of the word, sinister, I mean it sounds surreptitious, but in essence that's just a good - it's just to break up this whole thing into sub-components, so that there's no-one who's got only one answer.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, can I just follow that up?   As part of that experimentation that you're talking about, would you have used live animals to carry out the end results in a sense, because you had to test, as I would understand what you're saying, if you take anthrax in cigarettes, you essentially wanted to know what effect it may have on human beings at a later stage, or at some stage, now would that have been tested in mammals?

DR BASSON: No, the anthrax in cigarettes was not to test the effects, it was to test the efficacy of the delivery mechanism.    We already know what anthrax does, I mean it's common cause, anthrax inhaled in a certain way, anthrax introduced trans-dermally or intra-dermally, those effects are already known, so we didn't need, we didn't need to do that research.   What we did in the case of the anthrax cigarettes was... (intervention).

DR RANDERA: Sorry, let me just, okay, let's, I mean we're talking about in terms of anthrax and the cigarette smoke in terms of incapacitance, okay... (intervention).

DR BASSON: I'm getting to the answer.

DR RANDERA: ...in terms of what you explained to us earlier on, but then explain the cholera to me, I mean was that also part of the incapacitating agents that you were trying to develop?

DR BASSON: No, the cholera was done in order to look at inoculation processes and to test them, and also quality control.   I often received samples from different cultures at Roodeplaat, and then I gave it to another laboratory to test, to make sure that that what they say they're doing is indeed the case.   I'm not a qualified microbiologist and it was one of the ways how we could make double sure as far as control is concerned.   Against great personal risk with regards to animal rights people, and they're going to hit me over the head if I walk out of this door tonight, but it did happen that some of these chocolates, as part of the training process, would be given to a mouse or a rat to show the students what they consider a normal chocolate and do not want to believe me, that there's no better lesson for a person to actually see the result of his mistake.   So it was the case that some of those substances were tested on experimenting animals.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Randera, thank you Dr Basson.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Just for the record, which universities did you send some of this material to and which companies did some of the testing for you?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, there's not a university in South Africa that was not involved in some way or another, it was widely distributed.   I say "I", you must also read, I'm talking about the royal "we", this project did not differentiate between universities as such.   As far as possible, we supported all the universities and we also paid them for the work they've done.    As far as private companies are concerned, there were several of them, it could be a state, it could be semi-state companies, some of the people at agricultural research, I really cannot remember, but there was a diversity of facilities we made use of, and I'd like to add that I learnt this pattern from the American system, that's how they do their chemical research and basically I just copied it from them.

MR VALLY: Why then this strange arrangement with Dr Immelman whereby he would meet the people he calls Chris and Gert and Manny in restaurants, in other places, where these items were handed over to them?   I refer you, for example, to paragraph 16 of Dr Immelman's affidavit.

DR BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not aware at all of the fact that Dr Immelman, and I don't have the paragraph in front of me, but I would have been very surprised if Dr Immelman would have met these people in any other place other than my office at the medical headquarters, I cannot think of a more straight or less surreptitious place than the surgeon-general's office.   All these meetings took place in my office, at times when I was not available, when I was absent or for reasons that I cannot remember, in no way, and it's also mentioned there, code names were not used, I never ascribed to code names to anyone, except that I made it quite clear to Dr Immelman that his identity with regards to the other people in the unit or who were messengers or whatever they were, that his identity then must be concealed, because at that stage not one of the people who were involved knew that Roodeplaat was a front company who does this kind of work, so if there was any reasons which looks surreptitiously, it would be because to ensure and conceal the identity of Dr Immelman and Roodeplaat, so I'm not aware of any meetings which took place in cafes or shops, I'm only aware of those that took place legitimately in my office.

MR VALLY: You see, Dr Immelman states that when he delivered items to various people, he would put their initials next to the date, and as you can see, for TRC52, he's got three initials at various times, JK, which he told us was Johan Koertzen, C for Chris and K for Koos.   He also indicates in this affidavit, that where he didn't indicate who he gave it to, it would normally have been to you.   Now, TRC52 seems to bear him out.   Why, for example let's take the issue of, I'm looking for the sodium cyanide on the 20th of June 1989, do you see it on your list?

DR BASSON: Which date is that?

MR VALLY: 20th of June '89.

DR BASSON: Yes, that's correct.

MR VALLY: Now this is an extremely lethal substance, would you agree?

DR BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR VALLY: For what conceivable purpose would 50 of these capsules be delivered to Koos, can you give us a possible explanation?