Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MR LAMEY: What did you understand, would it only be MK members who would infiltrate or did you understand more with regard to how they would come in and what they would have with them?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: There was already talk of the ANC/MK members who would infiltrate.  We had already started making arrangements, because as I recall it was already decided there that an ambush would be set up and that they would be shot dead.

MR LAMEY: Did you understand that they would also be armed?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And were you also present where the person who would send the minibus, where he had to stop?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I would recall that we drove together when we went to the place earlier that afternoon, when Manzini, the place was pointed out to him, because I know it was during the day when I arrived there the first time.
	And the planning which ensued, I was not present all the time, but bit by bit I got the pieces together and Mr de Kock told me what would happen.

MR LAMEY: You also knew of a group which would depart from the Swaziland border, which would let the other MK members infiltrate and that there was a plan with regard to them, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct, there was a group appointed by Mr de Kock and they would have waited for the people who assisted the MK members, assisted them in infiltrating and they also had to be eliminated.

MR LAMEY: And what did you understand, was there a reason why those people had to be eliminated?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: The purpose thereof as I understood it, was to protect the source and they assumed that they would also be MK members.

MR LAMEY: It is common cause that you then set up an ambush on the particular road between Houtkop border post and Piet Retief, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.  After dark, as I recall, we moved in to the place and took up our positions.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall where your position was specifically in relation to the other people?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I was lying next to Mr de Kock.

MR LAMEY: Was there a person who had a portable light?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: The person who had to handle the light was on the other side of Mr de Kock and then the members, I think Vermeulen was next to me and then Flores and then the members from the Eastern Transvaal.

MR LAMEY: Very well.  Can you just tell us briefly what happened there.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I cannot recall how long we lay waiting there, it was quite a while.  The vehicle arrived, the lights I recall, there was a sign that it was indeed our vehicle.  I did not mention it, but I recall the indicator was definitely switched on, which would indicate that the people would be armed and which would confirm that they would be armed.  And then the minibus passed the place.  It actually stopped very quickly, or shall I say it did not stop immediately, it passed, but it stopped very quickly.

MR LAMEY: Past the point where it was supposed to stop?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, past the ambush point.  And Mr de Kock shouted "Come" and he said whatever he said and we ran.  I was just behind him.  When he got to the bus, the door opened slightly, he immediately started firing.

MR LAMEY: Could you see anything, could you see a person at the door that was opening?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: He was busy climbing out with a weapon.  That is how I recall what happened.  He definitely had a weapon, I saw the weapon.  It was from here to about the speaker there, that's how far it was from him when Mr de Kock started firing.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness indicates a point which is about four maybe five paces away from him.  Do you agree with that?  That's to the speakers in the middle to where you're sitting, about four paces.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Everybody started firing, I started firing ...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: May I just take you through this slowly.  You say you saw the person climbing out of the left-hand door and you saw the weapon in his hand.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: What happened at that moment?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Well he was basically still sitting, he was just starting to get out with the weapon and then Mr de Kock started firing, he did not have a chance.   I think he was surprised because of Manzini that had jumped out so quickly and I don't know if he knew what was going on.  Then Mr de Kock started firing and then we all started firing.

MR LAMEY: Do you know whether the light was switched on at this stage and when?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: The light was switched on at some stage.  It happened very quickly.  I cannot say that it was switched on immediately when the shooting started, I imagine that the light went on a few seconds after the  shooting started, but we had already started moving away because there was this heavy firing at the bus and we moved away from the bus.  As we were moving away we were still firing.

MR LAMEY: So what are you saying, while you were firing you moved backwards?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And did you also fire shots at the minibus and the people on the minibus?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, I fired single shots.  I had an HMK sub-machine gun with me, which came from the Security Branch and I emptied the magazine and I recall that I had about 24 rounds in the magazine, because at that stage the magazine was not entirely full and I think it was a 24 round magazine, but I emptied the whole magazine.

MR LAMEY: Very well.  When did the firing cease?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Mr de Kock shouted at some stage "Cease fire".

MR LAMEY: And afterwards, were you still at the scene and investigated and what did you find?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: The person that Mr de Kock had shot then fell out of the door.  There was somewhat of a hurly-burly there, we were all trying to realise what was going on and what was in the minibus, but I personally did not investigate or do any searching through the minibus, I left that to the Piet Retief people who had taken over the scene because I assumed that it was, that they would do the investigation or whatever the case may be.

MR LAMEY: Do you know what was found on the occupants of that minibus?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: They were all armed, every person that was there because one was in front, the one that Mr de Kock shot, the one on the middle seat and one sat at the back and they all had weapons with them.

MR LAMEY: Do you know whether those weapons were cocked?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I recall that the weapon that was in front left, I had a look at that weapon, it was.  I was interested in it to see how close this guy was to shooting and I saw the weapon was cocked and it was off its safety.  The other weapons I cannot exactly say that I went and had a look at them, but I know Mr Pienaar and them took the weapons and cocked them, but I did not have a look at them specifically.

MR LAMEY: But the weapon that you had a look at was definitely cocked?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Do you know whether that weapon was set on automatic or whether it was sent on single shot?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I imagine that it was - or I recall that it was on automatic.

MR LAMEY: And then you also mentioned what you had heard later with regard to the group that the people at the border would eliminate.  You mentioned here that they could not succeed in eliminating that person.  You have heard that a person had then indeed been killed at that scene.