Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

MR WEBSTER: You fought with Zano?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And Zipra.

MR WEBSTER: And Zipra.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: A most unpleasant experience, I take it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were under strenuous times, difficult situations.

MR WEBSTER: Very difficult situations for you.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You carry emotional scars from that experience?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir,

MR WEBSTER: The unpleasant experiences?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: At the hands of black people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not necessarily.

MR WEBSTER: There were the hands of black people.  Zano and Zipra were black people.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, they were not only black people.

MR WEBSTER: Are you wanting to tell me that the freedom fighters in Zimbabwe consisted of white people as well?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You don't make issue of that, but they were predominantly black people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, yes.

MR WEBSTER: And at the end of the day it was black people that took control of the country?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: And you had to flee your homes in Zimbabwe because of black people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Because black people took over you moved away from Rhodesia.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you say he had to flee.

MR WEBSTER: My apologies, thank you Sir.
You had to leave Rhodesia because black people had taken over the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't say you had to leave.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I didn't have to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he had to leave implying that he was compelled to leave.

MR WEBSTER: Or probably let me put it this way, you then decided to leave because Rhodesia was now in the hands of black people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I decided to leave because Rhodesia was in the hands of communists.

MR WEBSTER: They were predominantly black people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is so, yes.

MR WEBSTER: It was Mr Mogabe.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: And you - I'll leave it there.  Mr Wasserman, I'm not going to point a finger at you, a sanctimonious finger at you and probably say that I'm better than you.  I don't know how you feel, but I'm suggesting to you that you must have had intense dislike for black people.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that's absolute nonsense.  My unit were 90% black.  I have even to this date a terribly good relationship with black persons.  Mr Chairman, I deny that emphatically,  it's absolutely untrue.  My units were 90% black, possibly even more and to this date I still have very good report with black people.

MR WEBSTER: Yes, Mr Wasserman you may even have had 99% of black people under your service but that does not preclude you from having had utter contempt for those underlings who were serving a purpose that was common with you.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's totally incorrect Mr Chairman, in fact black people were my Commanders in the Rhodesian Forces and they gave me orders, so that is incorrect, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: But you were fighting for the Rhodesian Forces, were you not?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that that is not really relevant here, please.  Just come down to his participation here.

MR WEBSTER: Mr chairman, it's just that I think Mr Wasserman wants to throw in a dirty punch ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's because you asked him questions relating to what happened outside the borders of South Africa.

MR WEBSTER: I'm talking about, Chairman, 90% of the black people under him in South Africa and he then decides to cross the boundary, the borders.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's get down to ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Let's stick to the borders of South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Let's get down to the events here.

MR WEBSTER: Now, when you came to South Africa, you decided to support the National Party?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Because the National Party virtually had an anti black philosophy.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were the government of the day.

MR WEBSTER: And they believed that blacks should be underlings.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know that.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm terribly sorry to interrupt my learned friend.  Mr Chairman my learned friend told you on what basis he was opposing this application.  This witness has told you that he did fire at the occupants of the motor car.  It is difficult to understand how it is relevant whether or not this witness hated blacks for purposes of assisting this Committee Mr Chairman, of deciding whether amnesty should be granted or not and really Mr Chairman, not only is it irrelevant, but it's so unnecessary to dig up all this old hatred and what goes along with it, in this proceedings, Mr Chairman, and I would ask you seriously to stop my learned friend.  Let him get down to the facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wasserman, you joined the South African Police when you came into the Republic, is that it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that your first employment?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was it because of your political persuasion or your belief in the Nationalist Government that you joined the police?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I can say it like this.  When I was involved in Zipra operations, the ANC were moving in Zambia under the Zipra guise and as a result of that I was getting in touch with the SA ANC, the South African ANC and when that war finished I then brought that knowledge and that with me over to this side.  That's the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: That gives you the background, now let's get down to the facts of this case.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see all these people were policemen.  They may all have been born and bred as nationalists, but I don't think that we have the time to go into an explanation as to why that was so.  We don't have that time to go into all those details.  You've got to concede that.

MR WEBSTER: With respect, Mr Chairman, I concede that and whilst I concede that, I think it is highly improper of Counsel for the applicant, to interrupt on a point I'm building up to.  I might as well say to the person I'm cross-examining "Here is a list of questions I want to put. They relate pertinently to these issues relating to the incident and leave out all the background and just get on with it, on just what he wants to be an application completed for an amnesty granted to the applicant.  That is the task of the Commission and not me or counsel for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not going to interrupt you or prevent  you from cross-examining and I want your assistance.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: In confining the cross-examination to the issues about which we have heard, relating to the death, the unfortunate killing of those poor people.

MR WEBSTER: And as I've indicated Mr Chairman, I'm going to suggest it to Mr Wasserman, let counsel be at rest and at peace that I'm not dragging up hatred, but that I want to bring out the fact that when they went out that day, they didn't intend to apprehend the people in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: And if I'm not going to be having background...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Although ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Of their thought process, then I don't know how I'm going to get it out of him unless I say Mr Wasserman, you must have wanted to kill them, you didn't want to arrest them, comes the answer, no that is not so, no further questions.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You can develop that argument.  You can put that.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You know where we are going to Mr Wasserman?