Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

GABU TUGWANA: I think as a newspaper person I have no knowledge of visible existing structures which actually deal with that, except to say you might have some kind of trauma kind of structure attached to Wits University, Western Cape University, but I think we need more than just those type of areas.  One can look at what people are now saying for instance about Vietnam in America for example.  I do understand our government is young, it doesn't have resources, but I do believe that in a small way there are certain possibilities which can be exploited to deal with this.  For instance we need more trained people, as one example you can look at the Cuban doctors who are here.  I mean I am not sure in what direction they are trained, but I know that the Cuban government has opened its doors to try and assist us in this area, and also given the experience of Cuba in their country, they have assisted many African countries in various struggles against colonialism and other things, I suspect that they do have expertise in this area.  So you need to have some kind of visible and friendly type of structures where people are not going to have this fear
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that you know if for argument's sake I come from exile then I think if I go there people are going to think that I am mad.  
 The fact is that we know of a lot of people who have had their families broken who come from exile.  We know of a lot of battering of women which go behind scenes by some of our friends which we grew up with.  We know because their wives know us and they talk about this.  We don't think that they do this deliberately but we think there is at times something which happens that they just snap, and just at that moment they go for whatever.  So I think the government, as part of the healing of our land, need to have some kind of conscious programme to deal with this problem.  I am saying if we leave it I believe we will really be undermining all the changes we have achieved.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Gabu it leads to what you were describing, finding an elderly detainee stressed to a point of crying in secret, what impact did this have on you?

GABU TUGWANA: Well I mean I think at that time I was around 22 years old, to be honest I was shocked.  I never thought that an adult male cries.  Often I have assumed that males are strong.  I mean for me to be exposed to that type of thing I did realise that detention can really break.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thanks.  My next would be, there has always been this collective assumption that we knew what we are being detained for, but did you ever get to know as an individual what you were detained for?

GABU TUGWANA: Well not exactly.  I have a faint idea because of the type of people who interrogated me.  Initially of course you don't just volunteer information, they give you
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a book to write your history, your story, who you are, where you were born etc, where you went for education etc, and then later on they come back and tell you that you haven't said anything much about your activities.  But as you go on they feel you are wasting time then they go into assault etc.  I remember that with me in fact the assault is what helped me, it actually made me strong because I just became very, very stubborn.  And I think one of the people who was interrogating me said look let me be honest, I believe what you say.  In fact at that point I might indicate that I had said to him, if he likes he can kill me, I am giving up and I want to tell him that even if I were to die I won't be the first person, Timol etc, and others went to jail for a long time like President Mandela, I am willing now to die.  But the things which I stood for I knew that I will not die, that's what I told him.  And I think at that point he decided to say look my Captain has told me to try and find out how much do you know about the bombs the students were carrying.  Then I realised that these guys didn't know what they were arresting me for.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My last question would be similar to what was said to you, put to you, with regard to treatment for trauma and so on, that we still need guidance and opinions because one other thing that makes that process a little of a problem or difficulty is that the cultural differences make it very difficult, as you have said, to take people to say, whether it's Wits or Cape Town University from Soweto to be counselled in those offices where the question of the language becomes a bit of a problem and of course counselling through an Interpreter we still have to guided on that.  And of course another element is that our state of SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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economic divisions sometimes when a person has to go to centres like Wits the person is filled with a little bit of expectations beyond what he would have got from what you might call informal counselling structures within the community, what guidance would you give us on that?

GABU TUGWANA: You actually hit the nail on the head because I was going to suggest, I mean I'm not sure if these structures are feasible, kind of Alcoholic Anonymous type of operation which is some kind of network where people can talk about these things.  I think it's a very important foundation when you begin to get people to talk about this.  And I think like with a problem with alcohol normally the starting point of this is the company where a person works, where they feel this person always arrives late, he's absent on Mondays etc, and they send this person away.  Or in some cases families the families who would complain about abuse etc and I think organisations should be encouraged to begin to start this type of network and I think that will be a more I think grassroots type of approach, operation.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Gabu, no further questions.

GABU TUGWANA: Thank you.