Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: You're referring to Empangesa?  I don't quite understand your question would you please repeat it for me?

MR SIBEKO: Now you mentioned that sometimes you then you decided to organise youth where of course you decided to teach the local youth about their rights and all those things and then you solely seeked them to go and get membership cards at Isipiwe.  Then my question is when was that?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: In 1990 that's when the youth organised itself.  We started holding meetings and telling each other to join the ANC in Empangisa because the youth wanted to defend themself and they wanted to belong to an organisation, an opposite organisation.

MR SIBEKO: Now you say some time in 1990 I take it it was probably when, was it sometime in June or when?  You don't remember?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Beginning of 1990.  I do remember because in 1987 Mkhize tried when moved from Atanile and the beginning of 1990 that's when we started.

MR SIBEKO: So then in 1990, beginning of 1990 coincidentally it came with the unbanning of the ANC, is that correct, where then you started organising some of these meetings, secret meetings as you have put it?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, what I find very strange, why then was it necessary for you to engage in a secret meeting when of course ANC by that time it was now an unbanned organisation where people can freely operate.

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: As I've already explained that in the area the elderly were IFP.  We, the youth, we didn't see through one eye like the elderly in the area because we didn't want the elderly to look at us as mischievous and we also didn't want to have problems.  Yes it was unbanned but in the area the elderly were IFP and they were going to kill us even though it was unbanned in the country as whole but in the area it wasn't as easy to be freely participating as a member of ANC.

MR SIBEKO: Now will you agree with me, if I am following your evidence correctly, before you started these meetings there had never been any conflict between the ANC and the IFP in that area, is that correct?  That is before 1990 organisational?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: The conflict started in 1992 to 1993.  That's when the incident when I shot at police occurred.  It was because the police knew that I was in conflict with them and the IFP and also when I was approached and recruited that I should go and train and I refused.  That's when they were shot at.  I wasn't one of them.  There is IFP in Empangisa.

MR SIBEKO: But be that as it may, Sir, the fact of the matter is from the first, 1990, 1991 up to 1992 because you said you started having a problem, of course then the area was enjoying a relative peace, is that correct?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I will say there was never peace in the area.  The only thing I can tell you is that most of the incidents which occurred they were never published.  I will say in 1987 people were killed at Empangisa but this was never reported in the media or never reported in any documents.  There are quite a number of incidents which were never published.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, I understand what you're saying but the fact of the matter is from what you have just said, you said for some time there was this period from 1990, 1991 where of course there was this - you started forming or then structures were created.  You said at having these meetings.  In fact you never encountered any problem, is that so?  At there was no harassment that was coming from anywhere?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: We encountered problems before we formed ANC formally because I do remember an incident when police came in a school and started shooting at children and I saw this with my eyes and children came and they told us they were being shot at by police and when I asked them why they didn't know but then they wanted to go across a certain farm to fetch reports but most incidents were never published or reported.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, when did that happen, the shooting of children by police?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I'm not certain but I think it was in 1989.  At that time UDF was the predominant party.  We had held a meeting at Kwadweno and people wanted to go and report their problems in the police station and children were shot at.

MR SIBEKO: But I understand what you have just said before the Committee but now my question of course, I'm still hammering on this point that you said that you started having conflicts up to 1992, 1993, that's when of course the whole mayhem, trouble started with the IFP organisation, is that so?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes it is so.

MR SIBEKO: So Sir, if that's the case why then was it necessary for you to have these secret meetings when there was this relative peace which was in that particular committee and if I'll gather from you then there was no harassment whatsoever which was occurring at that time?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I think he's explained for more than two times that in this area the elderly members of the community are generally IFP orientated and the youth organised themselves and they ended up here that they sympathised with the UDF, ANC faction and they didn't want that to be known by the elderly members of the community because of all kinds of problems it would result in?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: It is so.

MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Committee Member, well I do concede he has explained but I'll move on, in fact I'll come back to that question then.  I apologise.
	Now Sir, you mentioned furthermore in your evidence in chief earlier on that you were receiving instruction from Sepo Mkhize, is that correct?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now at what stage?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: You mean I must tell you about when Mr Sepo Mkhize gave me instructions?  It started in 1985.  Usually he was explaining to us that there will be an organisation that will come into place, that organisation will be fighting for the rights of the human beings.  In 1987 I was found guilty because of my participating in a conflict of violence.  I do remember this because on of the people who participated with me went to exile.  The reason was because he was harbouring terrorist.  Therefore from there I restricted myself into participating more often.  Sepo Mkhize was the one who was guiding us.  He was lecturing us on how to hide things more especially when you're talking about ANC as an organisation because it was going to land him into trouble.

MR SIBEKO: Now where was this Sepo Mkhize staying, residing?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: At Entenjani in the district of Umbumbulo.

MR SIBEKO: Now will I be incorrect if I were to say then when Entenjani and Umbumbulo and mid Illovo are situated a distance apart?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes they are but they are under one district because I will say for example my father has a house in Illovo but where he was born was in Umbumbulo near Entenjani.  These areas are close.  People from Entenjani can also be residents of Illovo.  Yes it is a distance from one area to the other.

MR SIBEKO: Now do you have any idea whether the police at Umbumbulo area were under KwaZulu government services and at mid Illovo then they would be belonging to South African Police Service?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes I do know that because I do remember at one time when they were looking for me for manufacturing these firearms.  The police from Illovo were looking for me and also when I was arrested for participating in the violence they took time to get hold of me because I was arrested by the Umbumbulo police and the Illovo police were looking for me and people told me before they could come and arrest me.  I do know that they were ZP's and SAPs.