Special Hearings — Political Party — 1998-05-06

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I'm sure that you will not be obsessed with the question of whether the idea of the UDF was first thought up in Lastex(?) or in Moscow or in Beijing or some place like that.  I'm sure you would not be, as was the obsession in the past.
 The real fact of the matter is that if you ask this question of each one of us quite separately as we sit here which one of us, you are likely to get a different answer.  And if you ask the broad membership of the UDF you are also likely to get many different answers to this question.
 One cannot give a technical sort of answer to what is really a political philosophical question that is being asked and we would need quite a lot of time I think for all of us to talk at length.  Simplistic to say Allen Boesak stood up and said: "Why don't we form a front" and therefore we formed it.  Simplistic say Oliver Tambo said in the January 8 statement of that year: "Let us get together, churches and youth and women and intensify our onslaught against the enemy". 
 You know I think that one cannot really give an answer in that way but I want to suggest that perhaps the question, it's not such an important question.  It doesn't matter to us if somebody says it was a plot hatched in Moscow, we've never worried.  It doesn't bother us, it's fine if that's what - so we haven't bothered ourselves to write lengthy thesis' on this.
 In fact in the UDF National Executive we never discussed substantially the question, it wasn't an issue.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make one comment which may save us some time.  First of all, you must not read any implication into the question, we are totally open minded about this.  It was simply - any organisation has origins and so on usually.   But would I be correct in saying that the UDF was an idea whose time had come and therefore it was happening all over, certainly that's my recollection from someone who saw it at a distance.

POPO MOLEFE: Yes, that's certainly what I was going to say, that it was an idea whose time had come and that's why it then germinated.  We can give a number of examples of incidents where efforts were made to build such united fronts.
 There were people all over the country, the ANC in exile was talking about a united front and so on.  If we take a specific example of the Western Cape you would recall that after a flurry of organisation had developed all over the country and in particular in the Western Cape the need to co-ordinate the activities of those organisations, to build a powerful anti-apartheid block are rows.  
 Thus you had in the Western Cape what came to be known as the Disorderly Bills Action Committee opposed to all those many laws that the apartheid government was Coroner(?) bills and you name them. In Soweto people were building a co-ordinating structure, it was called the Under-Community Council's Committee welding together brought a range of organisations at local level. You had previously had other structures like the Antisake(?) committees which campaigned against the Indian councils around 1981.  
 We had for example, if you look at their records of the UDF, found that as early as 1981 we made a call and specifically I was addressing the National Council of the South African Council of Churches and that speech would indicate that we were calling for a broad front as early as that whose composition would be similar to that that the UDF later came to be.  Now Oliver Tambo and many others, Dr Neville Alexander was making those calls all round.  The Black Consciousness  Movement was setting up what came to be known as the National Forum Committee.  
 So all over the country people were talking about the need to build this united front but the course, the time for that idea had not yet matured, in the earlier period it did not really happen but by 1993 the thread of destroying the unity of the people had become so great that it became possible for the UDF to be called.  So what one could say is that indeed there was a convergence of views between those who organised inside the country and what the ANC was calling for and many other people all over the world and whether we answer the question, where it originated or not, does not help us to address the question as to whether there has been a gross violation of human rights or not, it is just part of the history.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molefe, Mr Mpshe.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps Mr Chair I need to respond to this and say that it should be understood that our task in asking some of these questions, particularly the last question I asked, is to understand the evolution of resistance, Mr Chairman, not necessarily to put the Delegation on the spot about the origins of the UDF.  We're asking the delegation to help us to understand the significance thereof.  It is our task Mr Chairman once more, when we include this in our report, to include it with clarity because it is only people who are involved in leadership who can best help us to write a good report. The idea was not at all, with due respect to put anybody on the spot and to blame this as whether important or not important; this is a fact finding mission or exercise. Mr Chairman I don't know whether we're going to adjourn for lunch or continue thereafter if..

CHAIRPERSON: I need some guidance here, there are a number of questions which the Commissioners still want to put, there are one or two still that Mr Mpshe has I think, it may make good sense to break and renew our work at a quarter to two in the hope that we may be finished by three. I know you have some problems but let's hear from you Mr ...

POPO MOLEFE: Well we would be happy to continue with the questions, we do have a request from Comrade Valley Moosa but he needs to be released at lunch time and I think we had said that as soon as that time comes he may just peacefully walk out to attend to his business, but from our side we would be ready to continue with the questions and maybe complete and break after we have finished the questions.  And may I while I am still given this opportunity to assure Advocate Mpshe that we've got no qualms with the questions that the Commissioners are putting to us, they must feel very comfortable and they may ask also as robust questions as possible.  They must not feel that we would feel offended, I think we accept the bona fides of the Commissioners in raising all sorts of questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

POPO MOLEFE: Whatever comments we make is not because we think the questions should not have been asked, we too are merely expressing our opinions and the weight that we attach to those questions.  Please don't feel offended.

CHAIRPERSON: I assure you we won't, thank you Mr..  could you just give me a moment to consult with my colleagues?  The good news is that we think we should try and finish and not worry too much about lunch and we will continue, we understand Mr Moosa's difficulty, if he has to go.  You've already said if he does it in a disciplined way and is responsible for his actions we don't mind for him to leave as well.
 I'd like to welcome the Archbishop.  The Archbishop has tried to interfere but I have resisted his - there's just another job that we've got during lunch time but I have instructed him to do that, so we can continue; it gives me great pleasure to say that.   
 Mr Mpshe you say that you only have one more question, why don't you put that and we will give the Commissioners an opportunity and then close.