Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Miss Nomandle you have stated one of the things that David said was the reason for them hating him was because he was not struggling with the comrades and that he
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was wearing expensive clothes.  Where did he get the money to buy expensive clothes?

UNKNOWN: I was working at a shop which was selling clothes, therefore I was buying for him.

UNKNOWN: And where is Mbulelo's school, is it in Putong?

UNKNOWN: When did you and David last stay together as a family?

UNKNOWN: We separated in November 1990 when they were now looking for him seriously.

UNKNOWN: So you started fearing for his life to an extent of leaving home from November 1990?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: I don't know perhaps you can tell me, have you got the address of the school he was at in 1990?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Mr Chairman but that can be ascertained from the witness.

JUDGE WILSON: You can give us the address of the school can you?

UNKNOWN: I don't have the address, I don't have my papers here with me.

JUDGE WILSON: No, if you tell us the name it will be in the telephone book won't it.  I am told we can find it.  And how was he doing at school?

UNKNOWN: He was doing very well from primary when I was taking him there.  They told me that he had difficulties with Sotho, then I talked with his mistress.  That other things which are taught in the medium of Sotho he doesn't understand them, therefore he failed them, then he said I should take him to the Xhosa school, then he said he will be okay, then he passed the same year in a new school, when he
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was killed.

JUDGE WILSON: And we have heard about a place 658, do you know that place, house no.658?  Sorry I've given the wrong number, 856, yes sorry.

UNKNOWN: 856, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that near where he was staying or near where your grandmother is?

UNKNOWN: 856 is where my grandmother was staying, but David was never killed near there.

JUDGE WILSON: Where was he killed near, do you know?

UNKNOWN: I don't know the number but I know that it was the house of Mr Ghale.

JUDGE WILSON: 685 was the number of the house we were given.

UNKNOWN: I think that is the correct one.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With whom did he stay when you were no longer staying with him?

UNKNOWN: He was staying where his aunt was staying.  He was staying with his aunt.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well to put a question in perspective, a question which was asked to you earlier on about the clothing, you see evidence was given before us here, for what it was worth, that David put on very expensive clothing to an extent that they were suspicious that he probably was getting some money from the police.  Now I know you have said that you bought him clothes he remained neat and the like, but would you say that you were in fact buying him what would appear to be expensive clothing?

UNKNOWN: I was working at the Indian shops and then the Indian shops' clothes are not quite expensive.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He was dressed like an average child, not
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extraordinary, am I right or wrong?

UNKNOWN: He was dressing like any other child.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now you have mentioned what I thought you were wanting to say AZASM, am I close enough to what you wanted to say?

UNKNOWN: David was belonging to the AZASM group and he was fighting with the Com Tsotsis, so I didn't understand those things because I didn't even want to know them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now to the best of my knowledge AZASM stood for Azanian Student Movement, now was he active in student movements?  Was he an active member of any student movement?

UNKNOWN: When I was staying with him, even when I was not staying with him?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Whether during the time you stayed with her, with him or during the time that you did not stay with him were you aware?

UNKNOWN: At that time when he was staying with me I didn't hear about him talking about any participation in any student movement.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And the time you were not staying with him?

UNKNOWN: Is then that I started to hear about AZASM.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: From whom did you hear about this AZASM, from him?

UNKNOWN: I had people talking about those things when there was a fight between the two parties.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well I thought you said they called each or they would call each other AZASM?  I thought you were also referring to the deceased?

UNKNOWN: It was that group which were telling me that they were fighting with the Com Tsotsis, the AZASM were telling me that they were fighting with the Com Tsotsis.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well did the deceased fall into any of the groups either AZASM or Com Tsotsis?

UNKNOWN: I didn't know which group he was falling either AZASM or Com Tsotsis, I was surprised, I thought even it's PAC because I got the T-shirt there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't understand under what circumstances anybody could have told you about the conflict between AZASM and the Com Tsotsis, if this was not told to you by your son.

UNKNOWN: I was not told by my son I was just hearing about, from people because I was staying - in town there were people were telling me that AZASM were fighting with the Com Tsotsis.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: By the way what made you become scared of staying at your - at home?

UNKNOWN: What made me to flee my home is that they came home and then my neighbour told me again that they came.  When I are forced to sleep in my house and then people were dancing and singing and then the following day I packed my things and then I left the furniture there. But they didn't burn.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why would they do that to you?

UNKNOWN: That time the way they were fighting it seems if they don't get somebody they meet(?) they would kill the mother or any other person in the family, any other person in the family was had.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you get the impression that they were after your son?

UNKNOWN: Yes the impression was created that that day when I came to visit him he said I think you should not stay, if they come and find me here they are going to kill
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you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did he tell you why they wanted to kill, why they were after him?

UNKNOWN: He didn't tell me but he just said they are fighting each other.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you not want to find out from him as your son and say well just tell me what is this problem about, it must be a huge problem so much so that you wanted to leave your house?

UNKNOWN: I did ask him that, why did they fight me but he just said they are fighting each other.  If they are going to make some mass action he didn't participate in that activities.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now you say after his death you found a T-shirt with the PAC letters or emblem.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you seeing that for the first time after his death?

UNKNOWN: Yes I was seeing it for the first time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You wouldn't know who bought it for him?

UNKNOWN: No.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I wanted to ask you whether you know Mr Nlavane or Mr Mche(?) can you help me, who were the two people who were with the deceased, allegedly, who were allegedly in the company of the deceased except Scarface?

UNKNOWN: Constable Mkonza, David Maseko is one and the other one is Sigodhlo.  David Maseko because he was staying at his home.  Maseko I'm not sure whether it's David or not, but I know that is Maseko.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: At whose home did he stay?

UNKNOWN: David was staying at Maseko's place.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it the same house where your son was staying?  No, no, was he staying together with your son at his aunt's place, at your son's aunt's house?

UNKNOWN: He was staying at the Maseko family because his aunt was married at the Maseko family.