Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

UNKNOWN: I believe, yes.  I was part of a system that suppressed people. Brigadier Gqozo became blunt to the feedback from the people, he wanted that way and the people wanted that way.  And there were two groupings, you were either there or you were there.  I was part of the government.  I was part of the system.  I was part of whatever names it's called about that government I was part of it, yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Colonel Nel I am a psychologist and I am going to ask you this question, particularly in the context of your contribution.  When you went to the stadium to view the aftermath and you saw those bodies, what seemed like thousands to you, what was your gut feeling at that time?  Please don't give me this, give me that, what were you feeling at that time in the context of the role that you played?

UNKNOWN: Did they know what this was all about?  Why
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this person, why that person, why not this person or that person, why not the policemen who was also in the firing line of fire, it was why, why, why, how.  Those questions, still today, I don't know.  I don't have all those answers.  There were handgrenades or 40mm grenades launched, what was the reason why that person was sitting on that seat on the pavilion and he had to die, why?  That was one of the troubling questions, when is your time?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Well you have just given me a military intelligence answer, so I am going to ask you the next question.  Do you have any children Colonel?

UNKNOWN: I have three.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: How old are they?

UNKNOWN: 12 and 7 and 2 years.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In real life our children tend to emulate us, we are role models for our children, I suspect that if you are anything like me one of your children may want to be in the intelligence service, I am taking probabilities, do you have any discussions with your children about Bisho and the role that you might have played?

UNKNOWN: Fortunately they, maybe my eldest son is old enough now to understand, but at the time when all this happened he was too small to understand.  I have an approach in the upbringing of my children to let them understand, they have a lot of fears when you go away, to be open with them, but I don't think they are old enough yet to understand, to grasp the complexity of the situation.  They become politically aware by asking questions.  Why is Mr de Klerk no longer President?  Then I explain to them.  And in that context yes, we are busy with an education process, a transformation, also with our children, we have the
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responsibility to ensure that they keep what's best and not the old things that was wrong.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: At the beginning, Chairperson this is the last question, at the beginning of your testimony you started by asking for forgiveness, but you were facing the Commissioners, I am going to put faces to your forgiveness, to your request for forgiveness, I am going to ask you to scan the faces to your left on the second, third and fourth row because those are the faces of the Bisho Massacre aftermath.  Those are the victims and survivors and their families.  Those are the people who cannot walk away from it.  Those are the people who will continue to have damnation pain.  Those are the people who will wonder as you ask for forgiveness what role you played.  And so I want to put the faces to your request for forgiveness and ask you to address them rather than the Commissioners.  You ask for forgiveness and we are not in a position to do that, I am saying those are the people who were directly affected by it, could you very briefly address them.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Thank you for the opportunity.  I wasn't aware of the procedures of this Commission, but I am glad to face the people and thanks for pointing the people out to me. I wish I could do this in Xhosa for the people to understand exactly, to convey the feeling, but I ask everybody here who was a victim of any suppression in the Ciskei which could have resulted from directly or indirectly my action, forgive me.  I was part of that system, and with hindsight I shouldn't have been.  Thank you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Colonel thank you.  Chairperson thank you very much.
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MR POTGIETER: Thank you Dr Ramashala.  Colonel Nel it just remains for me to thank you for having come and thank you for having wetted our appetites.  We appreciate your willingness to sit down with us and perhaps in a different atmospheres and with a lot more time at our disposal to look at some issues that might be able to assist us in the work that we've got to do.  We are grateful for you having indicated your willingness to assist in that regard, but thank you in general for your testimony.  Thank you for the information that you have shared with us, and thank you for having come today.  We are indebted to you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  May I go Sir?

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.