Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think - we will   take a five minute adjournment to establish that, because I think if we go this afternoon, we would probably achieving having an inspection in loco with the minimum loss of hearing time than if we did it for instance tomorrow morning, we might loose the whole morning.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I am informed that the roads will not be blockaded and that we will therefore have an opportunity to proceed for this inspection in loco, so I propose that we do that now.  When we reconvene, we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at half past nine in the morning.  Is that all right for everybody concerned?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, just for the record, I will be attending the inspection in loco.

CHAIRPERSON: And will Mr van Zyl, shouldn't Mr van Zyl be there?

MR MARTINI: Well, my client is not prepared to attend, so I will attend.

CHAIRPERSON: But, surely we are going there on the spur of the moment, as it is, no one is expecting us there, I have spoken to Mike Benade who says that he can drive with the security people, he can stand right next to me if he wants to, at all times, I can ...

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, I have just put it to my client, he says he is not going.  I will attend as his legal representative.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who is going to show us the place where he was and where he made observations from?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, I don't want to get into long debates again, this issue was raised last time.  I think everyone is aware, my client won't attend.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that ...

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Chairperson, just for the record, Mr Bizos' words were "we promise to have a plan", we still haven't got it.  Mr Chairperson also suggested that you would like at that stage, some sort of a plan in the record, I just want to read at page 674, sorry Mr Chairperson, if you will just allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are aware of that Mr Martini, but we don't have the plan, we are told we are getting it tomorrow.  Surely there is a difference between having the hearing there, being there for two, three weeks and going there, unexpectedly for a short inspection where all protection will be provided?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, that is my instruction.  I will attend, we will have a diagram tomorrow, I will relay it to my client, and I cannot take it further than that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, at the last hearing, a diagram was in fact brought in on the morning of, I cannot remember, it was the last day or the second last day.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we did see a diagram, quite a large diagram.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It was passed around, it wasn't really intelligible in the sense that we are talking about now, it didn't really, I didn't find it very useful to look at the diagram in order to understand the nature of the evidence that has been led now.  If we go there, what we want to know is where is the parking lot that Mr van Zyl is talking about, where does he say his car was parked?  If we don't know that, it is not going to be very meaningful.
	I don't know, if Mr Martini has some way of sorting that out without Mr van Zyl actually being present, well, good and well, but I am not sure how he is going to do that.

MR MARTINI: My client says he can do that with the diagram.  That is my instruction Mr Commissioner, that is why I suggested we get the diagram first.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't your client reconsider coming, I mean it would be helpful, it is going to assist him in his application as well?

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Chairperson, my client says, instructed me to record "who is attending", is it everybody?  He says he has no difficulty if the legal representatives and the Chair wants to attend there, he will come with, but he doesn't believe that a whole convoy must arrive there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the legal representatives will be there and I don't know who else will be there, any of the applicants who wish to go, will be there.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... a practical solution?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: The police can have a cordon within which, the people who are in court, cannot be excluded, because it is really an extension of this, in order to avoid, in order to avoid any possible rush of people that may come, which has never happened at any other case, beyond my experience, but nevertheless, reasonable precautions can be taken for Mr van Zyl's protection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the victims who have been sitting in the hall, hardly constitute  a convoy, there are five or six?

MR MARTINI: You see Mr Chairperson, these snide remarks, it is not warranted and it is not helping things.
	If I may say something now, Mr Bizos should confine his snide comments possibly to the theatre, if he does perform there, but not at this hearing, because it is not helping matters, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will get, the protection will be there, and it won't be, I don't anticipate that it would be long.

MR MARTINI: May I take, my client has been trying to ask me something, what is going to be asked, and then we had interruptions by Mr Bizos, could I just take an instruction of my client outside and then ...

MR LAX: Yes, I was going to suggest that.

MR MARTINI: Thank you.

MR COETZEE: Mr Commissioner, may I just at this stage, it is not going to have any bearing on ...

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Coetzee.

MR COETZEE: May I myself and my client be excused from attending Athlone, because he was not involved in that application.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, anybody who desires to go and who is not required, those people who are not required, certainly, I don't think there would be any objection to them not attending?

MR COETZEE: Because the arrangements would be too difficult in any way, to have ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I don't know what the position is regarding Mr Calla Botha, is he not here?

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, I will attend.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, thank you for the indulgence?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini?

MR MARTINI: My instructions are my client will go there with the police protection, but he will not answer questions there, he will point out where he was located, where ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MARTINI: May I finish Mr Chairperson?  Where the hall is and where the parking lot is, and then he wants to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the info that I personally would like is that what you have said, where he was, the approximately 30 metres and also where the car was parked.  He talked about it being 400 metres, or something, and where it was driven, you know, they drove around the block and where the hall was.  That is the sort of information that we want from ...

MR MARTINI: He says he will point out where he was and possibly that is where the car was, the hall and the parking lot, but he is not remaining there to be cross-examined or questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: No, there won't be cross-examination.

MR MARTINI: And he wants to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we want all the evidence taken on the recording.  He will just be asked to point out various points, maybe a little bit more than what you mentioned, maybe like where the car was parked and where it drove around, what entrance people came out of, that sort of thing, but not questions that require to be recorded, etc, and then when we come back tomorrow, we will have a plan, is that so, Ms Coleridge?

MS COLERIDGE: Definitely Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And we can perhaps by agreement mark certain spots that have been agreed upon, on that plan.

GEORGE BIZOS: We can possibly Mr Chairperson, also go inside the hall.  Mr van Zyl hasn't  - said that he never was in the hall, he can't be of any assistance, but we may be able to ...