Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, can you ask your assistant to take those copies of the Exhibits and circulate them to Mr Ameen please?

MR TLOUBATLA: Let's say the general order now that I'm talking about where you are called upon to defend yourself and property, how was it communicated to you?  Let's say to you personally, were you called aside in one private room and told that this is what the organisation wants or expects of you?  How were such orders communicated to you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Individuals were not called.  Such people planned that in meetings and took out their feelings about the violence.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, the act of killing those young boys, for whatever reason it was, that they had destroyed your comrade's property or threatened his life, do you think under the circumstances that the act itself, was it warranted, was it commensurate with what they had done?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I have explained already that their acts were piling up until such time that we decided to take an action.  We never thought that violence would go as far as Orlando.

ADV BOSMAN: You said that their acts were piling up, who do you mean, these boy's acts?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not activated.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I'm referring to the acts conducted by the UDF.

ADV BOSMAN: And not the boys that were killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No, not the boys, acts conducted by the UDF and not particularly these boys.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know Mr Hlasa that for you to be granted amnesty that your act must be politically motivated, in other words there must be a political motivation.  What political motivation was in this act that you conducted?  What did you hope to achieve in terms of, politically, that is your organisation and your members?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was hoping to send forth the message to the members of the UDF that we can also defend ourselves, that was point number one.   Point number two, if we were able to protect our members then our organisation was going grow.  If we have members and we don't defend them they became disillusioned and resign.  We were protecting our organisation to grow like any other organisation.  We wanted to exist freely, we wanted to practice our political right freely.  We were sending the message.

ADV BOSMAN: In what way did you make it clear that it was the AZAPO people who had killed these boys?  How did the community know it was an AZAPO murder?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The community would not know it was AZAPO but we know that the UDF was going to know that AZAPO killed them.  I can give an example with Fana Umshlongo who was kidnapped and killed.  We did not scratch our heads, we knew that he was kidnapped by the UDF, he was killed by the UDF but it was hard luck for the community to know but those were lucky enough would have known.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, I don't understand, you said that you also intended to let your membership grow, now certainly your membership would come from members of the community?  Did you know think that the community should know about this in order to impress them to become AZAPO members?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We used to go out to the communities and lay before them the political objectives of AZAPO.  When we recruited people we did not tell them about UDF, we told them about the aims and objectives of AZAPO.  If people had joined us already it was difficult to fully identify themselves with us because of this violence that even appeared in the newspapers, the conflict between AZAPO and UDF.  So it was important for us to protect our organisation and its growth.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Hlasa, how many - I mean, after how many days were you arrested after the killing of these boys?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not remember, I think two or three days thereafter.  I was arrested two or three days thereafter and I was sent to Morroka Police Station.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.  When did you go into exile?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: After appearing at the Protea Magistrate's Court we were sent to the Johannesburg Central Prison for about a week and the South African Council of Churches helped us with bail, we were bailed out and we skipped the country.  It was myself - it was after three weeks when this happened, it was myself Motlana, Jeff and Thandakubona, we skipped the country for exile.

MR TLOUBATLA: Who assisted you into going into exile and what was the reason for that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Let's put it that way, AZAPO assisted us to go into exile.  The reason for that was that when we were arrested at Protea the case was regarded as a criminal case and the organisation felt that it was difficult for them to rescue its members and we had to go.  It was a choice of an individual whether you wanted to go or not and we expressed our feeling of leaving and then we left this country.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you join any organisation when you were in exile?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, we joined the Black Consciousness Movement of Azania.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you describe what you, I mean your activities when you were in exile?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We arrived at different times in Botswana.  I think I arrived much later than the two comrades who have applied and I went to Dukwe in the camps and many comrades were there and I participated in the activities or the organisation.  I remember before I was trained I was the Secretary of Welfare.  I was actually looking at the welfare of the comrades and later on I went to Zimbabwe ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.  Did you - during your exile, did you at all times take part in the programmes of the BCM and were you an active member of BCM?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I was the Secretary of the Welfare and later ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer my question.  During the whole period while you were in exile, were you a member of a political organisation until you came back?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	And then into the country, when did you come back to the country, into the country?  When did you come back?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: When I finally came back - I don't understand your question clearly, but when I finally came back it was in 1994.  It was in September of 1994.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned something about training, did you undergo any military training when you were abroad?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I received a military training.  I spent 11 months in Libya, 1989 until early January.  After 11 months I went back to Zimbabwe.

MR TLOUBATLA: So you were at all times in the organisation, in your organisation?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: All the time.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, I think that will be all unless there is something specific that the Chairman would like me to perhaps elicit from the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the incident, was he a member of AZAPO?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long before this incident had you been a member of AZAPO?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Before this Showela incident, it had been a year and a half.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Mr Ameen, what do you plan?  Do you want to defer your cross-examination?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I would like to defer my cross-examination.  I just want to know, would the other two be giving evidence as well, the other two applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: That is true.

MR AMEEN: I suggest that they be allowed to give their evidence and then I'll cross-examine all of them if we could finish that by the end of today Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, how old were you at the time of the incident?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was 22 years old.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was your level of education?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: JC.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: And what was your occupation, were you employed or were you unemployed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No, I was not, I was in the organisation.