Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KADES: Do you know that two young men named Tulani Dlamini and Cyril Mbatha were eventually convicted of the murder of Dr Asvat?  Did you know either of these young boys or both of them?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I didn't know them.

MR KADES: Did you ever overhear a discussion at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela concerning these two boys, and whether they had or hadn't been present at the premises of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

JOHN MORGAN: No, I only saw Tulani in prison once.  They were having an altercation with Jerry, talking about Dr Asvat's death.

MR KADES: Can you tell us about this discussion, that altercation, you say?

JOHN MORGAN: Jerry said, "Why did you kill Asvat?" to the other one, he was asking Tulani, and Tulani, they had to be separated at some stage because there were constant bouts between them in Johannesburg Prison.

MR KADES: So what was Tulani's reply to Jerry Richardson's question concerning why he killed Dr Asvat?

JOHN MORGAN: They first talked.  I heard the other one asking the other one as to why he had killed Dr Asvat.  Jerry was asking Tulani, and they started fighting with their fists.  That's when they got separated.

MR KADES: Did you hear any of the talk between them, any of the discussion between them.

JOHN MORGAN: No, there's nothing I heard from them.  They took Jerry to a separate cell.

MR KADES: Did Jerry answer the question that Richardson had put to him as to why he had killed Dr Asvat?

JOHN MORGAN: At this moment when the other one said, why did you kill Asvat, they started having this fist fight before Jerry could even answer, and they were later separated.

MR KADES: Would you say that question was not answered?  Were you ever present at the surgery of Dr Asvat when he is alleged to have had a rather heated discussion with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

JOHN MORGAN: No, I wasn't.

MR KADES: Thank you,  Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any others? Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Mr Chair. Tony Richard again.  Mr Morgan, do you know Xoliswa Falati?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: When did you first meet her?

JOHN MORGAN: I met her when she got to Winnie's place.  She talked and I think they became friends with Winnie. No, I don't remember the year.

MR RICHARD: ... 1986, 1987, '88?

JOHN MORGAN: I think it was somewhere thereabouts.

MR RICHARD: Could it have been during that three-year period?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I think so.

MR RICHARD: How long was it before the incident surrounding the death of Stompie Sepei?

JOHN MORGAN: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: ... or a short time?

JOHN MORGAN: I think it was a short while after the incident of Stompie.

MR RICHARD: (Not recorded. Speaker's mike not on)

JOHN MORGAN: I think after.

MR RICHARD: ... answer, you're saying Mrs Felati only met with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela a short time after the death of Stompie Sepei, is that your answer?

JOHN MORGAN: Before Stompie's death.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say, thank you, you mean you're finished or thank you for the answer?

MR RICHARD: Thank you for the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer, ah yes.

INTERPRETER: (The speaker's mike is not on.)

MR RICHARD: What role did Mrs Falati play in the incidents leading up to the death of Stompie Sepei?

JOHN MORGAN: I think she told Mrs Mandela that Paul Verryn from the Methodist Manse is living with boys at Manse Methodist.

MR RICHARD: Were you there when that was said?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I wasn't.  This is just my opinion because Mrs Mandela said I should go and fetch the boys from Methodist Manse.

MR RICHARD: Let me proceed.  Now the ... (indistinct) outlined during the course of which period Stompie Sepei, I won't go through again, but I'll go through to the fourth day after the first assault.  Is that the day according to your evidence that Stompie Sepei finally died?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR RICHARD: On that day my client will give evidence to this effect:  "We", that's Mr Richardson and others, "then sent the rest of the people who were in my room, i.e. Kenny, Thabo, Pelo, Ronny and others into the house.  We said they must go into the house and sing for Mrs Mandela, who was very depressed.  All the individuals complied. They went into the house and sang for Mrs Mandela. They sang freedom songs.  At this point Slash and I were in my room with Stompie.  No one else was present.  We heard all the singing.  We took Stompie out of the house and walked with him from Diepkloof Extension to Noordgesig.  I had a garden shear with me. Slash separated the blades of the shears."  He then proceeds to say: "We reached Noordgesig and were facing a railway line.  The railway line is known as the Croesus Line.  We pointed the railway line to Stompie. We told Stompie that we were taking him to Parys.  We continued walking for a few more metres in the direction of the railway line.  We turned to a quiet and secluded spot.  I said, 'Let's sit down'. We sat down.  I said to Slash:  'Let's do the job.'  Slash held Stompie down. Stompie screamed.  I took one part of the shears and slit Stompie's throat.  I slit his throat as if I was slaughtering a sheep."
 Now, Mr Morgan, would you have any reason to dispute that version?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't refuse this, but I don't know it.

MR RICHARD: Is there any basis on which you would believe that that is erroneous?

JOHN MORGAN: I don't know.

MR RICHARD: ... that's the proposition I'm putting to you.  Is that correct, you don't dispute it?

JOHN MORGAN: You are telling me a statement you've heard, and I'm also telling you things that I have seen, and the two are not the same.

MR RICHARD: ... do they differ? Please answer the question, you're being evasive.

JOHN MORGAN: I don't know.

MR RICHARD: So you have no basis then to dispute the statements I ... (intervention)

JOHN MORGAN: With respect what are you expecting me to say now more than that he has said?

MR RICHARD: Then I will put it to him - [intervention] I will then proceed to put it to him that the witness, Mr Morgan, when he says in this report dated 12 April '92: "One morning I got to the house early and I was told by Winnie to pick up the dog and dump him.  I looked through the window of the back room and saw him, Stompie lying there.  I told Winnie I would never do something like that and went inside the house. I knew he was dead because - "
... (intervention)

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is what I have said.

MR RICHARD: But then when I put what Mr Richardson will say in evidence to you, why didn't you dispute it?

MR NTSEBEZA: Well, I'm sorry to interrupt here.  This witness has said that is another version, I have given you my version.  I don't know about what you are saying to be your version.  Now what more can he say?

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, with the greatest of respect, there are two mutually exclusive versions before the Tribunal, one which Mr Richardson will give when he gives evidence, and the other, and that the death of Mr Sepei took place at Mrs Mandela's house.  If there is a conflict, let us know that there is, and it would appear that there is, and in the circumstances what I seek to do is to confront the witness with the contradiction so as to endeavour to find the truth, but it seems as if I've taken the point as far as I can.
 Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now sometime far more recently in the recent past you seem to believe you knew where the bodies of certain individuals were.  Which individuals were those?

JOHN MORGAN: I don't know, but they know.

MR RICHARD: Your answer is, "I don't know, but they know".  Is that the bodies of Lolo Sono and Mr Shabalala?

JOHN MORGAN: I don't know those boys, Lolo and the other one, I don't know them.

MR RICHARD: ... you at any stage, and I'm led to believe that you might have, take people to a mine shaft and say bodies might have been put down there?

JOHN MORGAN: Can you please repeat your question?