Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NTSEBEZA: Let me put it differently.  If it was the evidence that in fact as part of this total strategy to deal with the unrest situation in the 1980's and particularly 1986, a Joint Security Management System was established under the headship of Minister Vlok, you would be able to say now I can say that there was in fact a pattern, would you agree?

UNKNOWN: Definitely.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, the evidence that you have seen and particularly the evidence of Steve Kahanovitz.

UNKNOWN: I couldn't hear.

MR NTSEBEZA: Steve Kahanovitz, it seems to suggest that ... (tape ends) ... did you get that impression about his evidence?  I am not asking what your own position was at that time?

UNKNOWN: I unfortunately did not hear his entire evidence, I came in I am not quite sure at what point of his evidence, but I heard of that and there are things that occurred that were difficult to explain.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, in fact the evidence of the Doctor, the last Doctor who was here, seemed to suggest that the police actively participated both at protecting the "witdoeke" and at actually attacking those who were the objects of the attack of the "witdoeke", you heard that part of the evidence?

UNKNOWN: I heard that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, were you aware that the "witdoeke" were referred to as the fathers?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember that terminology, no.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is your evidence that you hear of that reference of the "witdoeke" ...

UNKNOWN: I can't remember hearing it before, I can't.  So I think it is the first time that I am hearing it now from you.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that so?  Now, do you know in what way now or at the time, there was or there wasn't a relationship between the Joint Security Management System and the State Security Council?

UNKNOWN: I am unaware of the mechanics of that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you hear anything about a possible link between those structures?  For instance did you know that there would be a link at some level between the Joint Operation Centre at Mannenberg and the State Security Council?

UNKNOWN: Again sir, it is very difficult because I cannot - I don't know how much of the knowledge that I have now, I have acquired subsequent to 1986.  So it is very difficult answering the question as at 1986.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: But obviously there must have been a linkage, but whether I knew that in 1986 or whether I know that subsequently, because a lot of our history is only coming to the fore now.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  No, no, I appreciate that.

UNKNOWN: And I can't answer you honestly there, I am aware of it, but I can't say when I would be aware of it.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, no, I appreciate that.  You see I am trying to find as a person who has had the courage to come and give the testimony that you have given, I would like you to try and assist the Commission in trying to explain those inexplicable things which you say now with the benefit of hindsight, I realise that there were things that we could not explain.

UNKNOWN: With the greatest of respect, I think it is pretty obvious.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, I would like to be very sure that it is pretty obvious and I would like to carry you along with me as an observation and as a person who was observing those times.  Now if there was evidence  and I must say that we are looking at whether in fact this evidence can be authenticated, if there was evidence that in those times already submissions were made to the State Security Council from these structures in the provinces, that as part of the policy of dealing with the unrest in the Western Cape for instance, "witdoeke" were referred to as the fathers, had to be assisted by the State, now I want to relate this to the intervention which you have referred to.
 It is a very small intervention, you were asked why did you arrest these people, why are you keeping Ngxobongwana there?  Now would it surprise you ...

UNKNOWN: It was not that small to me, because I honestly thought that it was a good arrest, that we would have been able to solve crimes through the arrest, and that is my mandate.
 I was there to solve crime.  People had been murdered and I wanted to solve that.  And I did not like the interference that prevented us doing our job.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now if there was evidence, now that you also recall this particular incident, if there was evidence that suggested that in fact at one of the State Security Council meetings a recommendation was made by way of tabling a report from some of the structures, that served at the State Security Council, that as part and parcel of dealing with the unrest situation in the Western Cape, the fathers must be assisted against the comrades.  Now, would that surprise you now with the benefit of hindsight when you look back on those things?

UNKNOWN: No, I think if such a report exists, then obviously I tramped on toes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And would that to you explain the anger and the agitation of Brigadier Van der Westhuizen when he was indicated by either the Minister of the State President that the person who had been arrested, ought to be freed?

UNKNOWN: Possibly.

MR NTSEBEZA: You see, whichever way you look at it, it does suggest it that what happened even if we only observed the three days that there has been testimony about, three days which coincide very uncanningly even to the day and the day of the week with the days on which we are having these enquiries, that there was a systematic pattern that cannot be explained as having been a chance phenomena, would you agree with that?

UNKNOWN: There are many things that at this point in time, as an investigator, I would not be able to explain.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do these events, when you look back on things, do these events make you proud to have been a policeman in those times?

UNKNOWN: Oh, that is a rough question.  I am very proud to be a policeman.  I am very proud to be a Detective, yes.  I think I have always given my best as a Detective, I have honestly policed without bias, without favour.
 I have put criminals behind bars, not sections of society.  I have no regrets in being a policeman, none whatsoever.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now let's test that.

UNKNOWN: But I do not always think that the Police Force's record is necessarily a proud record.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now let's test that - and  I believe you.  Now when you came to Guguletu that time, we now have a catalogue of what clearly was criminal activity on the days, 9, 10 and 11 of June.
 Did you investigate those incidents?

UNKNOWN: No, those incidents were being investigated.  If my memory serves me correctly by Captain Loocke.  As I tried to explain here, I was not assigned a docket per say, I was in overall charge and I think if the Commission has had privy to of the documents, that came out, I think the Commission would also be honest with itself if it looks at the reams and reams of queries that I gave, I tried to lift the expertise of investigation which at the time was very poor.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, no in fact the way in which you dealt with Ngxobongwana and his people and stuff like that, suggests to me that you approached the whole question of investigation in a fairly robust fashion.
 But what I would like to know as the overall Commander of the Murder and Robbery Unit in Guguletu, even if you were not in charge of the dockets, you must have heard certainly in the newspapers and generally from the comments that will be made at the time, that there was a lot of disquietude about the manner in which the "witdoeke" had conducted themselves.

UNKNOWN: Yes.