Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I was not involved with them but I was informed that, and I think he was also charged at one stage due to this incident.

MR STANDER: It is indeed so.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes then I would absolutely grant that he was identified as a leading figure.

MR STANDER: Also China Olifant?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes this name is also known to me.

MR STANDER: He was apparently also charged.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes I don't know exactly who were charged.

MR STANDER: Mr Erasmus, at this stage when the Group of 19 and I'm referring to 6th April 1986 were arrested, what role did you play at the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I was a desk officer at Mr Chris Smit's and it concerned the ANC's activities overseas which involved lots of correspondence between the various divisions and sections and head office which I was involved in.

MR STANDER: Your office was situated on the fourth floor?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that's correct.

MR STANDER: For a large part of this sitting you were in attendance and I'm sure that you heard when some of these victims testified here.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that is correct Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: Can you remember that they testified to the effect that they sometimes shouted while they were being assaulted?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I heard the testimony.

MR STANDER: What is your - let me rather rephrase, I take it that you don't agree with their version, is that correct?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Chair. It's not an enclosed building.  Sound travels quite well.  The divisional commanders were there, the chaplain was there on the third floor.  It is strange to me that this shouting would have taken place but nobody complained, nobody said a single word about this until this was now brought to the attention of the Commission here.

MR STANDER: You also agree that not one these victims had any reason whatsoever falsely to incriminate anybody?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I think a few people would like to get at me.

MR STANDER: Do you know why?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair since 1981, I have been a member of the Security Branch.  At one stage I also applied the emergency measures and administered them.  I visited many of these people in the jails where they were detained.  There were many criminal cases against the PAC and the ANC.  The AWB which I investigated, I'm definitely not very popular with many people.

MR STANDER: I can understand when you refer to yourself but there are numerous other police officers or their subordinates mentioned in the same breath by these victims or some of these victims, would you say that the same conclusion could be drawn also with regard to them?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair, we are the people who were working on ground level, we were daily in the townships, we were familiar to the people.

MR STANDER: Tell me, Thami Makubalo the younger brother of Mr Oupa Makubalo, do you know whether he was also a member of the same group of 19 who were interrogated on the day?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No I don't know Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: Well I have been instructed specifically to state to you that you indeed assaulted this person on this particular occasion when this group of 19 were interrogated there.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny that Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Do you know on how many consecutive days this group of 19 was interrogated?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chair, I don't know but that they were at the offices, I know, that is indeed true.  The reason why I say I specifically remember visiting them I can give to the Commission.

MR STANDER: You may continue.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I was officer on duty and my wife to whom I wasn't married at that stage was in my service group and when I went to visit these people I met her parents for the first time and that's why I remember this specifically.

MR STANDER: I also wish to put it to you that Doreen Lekeklane, Kusani Jwai, Thandi Jacobs and Ms Pahlane, had all been assaulted by you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny that Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: Who was the first of those three names?

MR STANDER: Kusani Jwai, I can spell the name for you.  As it pleases you.  It seems to me there's a problem, I mentioned four names, I don't know whether you got the impression that I only referred to three, I'm not referring to my previous questions, I have referred to Kusani Jwai, on person, Thandi Jacobs, a second one  ...... do you have it like that.

JUDGE WILSON: I didn't have Doreen.

MR STANDER: As it pleases you.   Mr Erasmus, please tell me, this document that you say which was a directive from Head Office, that the female should be questioned in the presence of female police officers, would it be possible to obtain a copy of this directive?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I'm going to look for it Mr Chairman, but this was something which only happened lately.  At that stage there were few women who were part of the police service.  It was a practical directive as far as I know, in only came at a later stage but I will try to find it.

MR STANDER: Do you know if it came from local head office or did it come from Pretoria?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I assume that it comes from Pretoria.

MR STANDER: If you say that it only came out lately, can you give us any date perhaps.  If you can't I will accept it like that.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It was definitely in the '90's.  As far as I know it was not earlier than that.

MR STANDER: But you will try to obtain that document please, thank you.   Regarding the so-called Violent Street, Mr Erasmus am I right in saying that you were one of the senior police officers there associated with the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman, at that time I was a lieutenant, a junior officer.  In '86 I was a lieutenant.  In 1985 I only became an officer.

MR STANDER: Do you agree that the sticker on a white background with red on it and stuck to a wall in a passage indicating it was Violent Street did not convey a good message for anybody who had access to the 5th floor of the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman in the first place I did not read it as an indication that that passage was Violent Street; there was something else written underneath, Violent Street  was prominent, there was something else written there, I can't mention that now.

MR STANDER: Why I'm asking this question, we all know that members of the public continuously were questioned on the 5th Floor.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: People who could possibly come there for the first time saw that sticker on the wall and somebody who did not know the circumstances as you've alleged these circumstances were, would get a wrong impression.  If I understood you correctly it was very pertinent instructions from the top that nobody should be assaulted in that building?  Mr Erasmus we would therefore assume that the officer in command would see to it that a sticker with such a distorted message should be taken away.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I was not a senior officer.  I did not see that as a skewed message.

MR STANDER: I want to put it in the last place that assault and tortures took place continuously at the Security Branch.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny it. I know that there were charges against my colleagues; these cases were investigated, they were taken to court, some of them were charged and these cases appeared in court.  These allegations that there were assaults on a big scale, I deny that.

MR STANDER: I said that that would be one of my last questions but I've forgotten about Mr Mohape.  He was a well-known activist during the 1984's.