Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is because she would not resign as Mayoress and secondly the deeds like organising AmaAfrica and infiltrating them into the community.

HASSAN MALL: Now then do I understand that you people burnt down the houses of other Councillors as well, apart from her house?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes some members of the Councillors' houses were burnt down.

HASSAN MALL: How many?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Two houses that I remember.   I was not part of burning down, but I remember two houses, in addition to her house.

HASSAN MALL: You were not against the idea of burning
down the houses?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: I could not stand against that because it was also my wish that they should step down.

HASSAN MALL: My question is that you were not against it.  You went along with the decision that the houses should be burnt down.   That is the position?
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NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Well I can say that I was not against such action.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Johnson in your application on page 4 you said that,
"Attempts to reason with her and her Councillors were made by the community, all in vain".
what attempts did you make to dissuade her from further participation?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: As I was one of her students at school, we met with her as members of the SRC, and told her that she must concentrate on one job.  Sometimes she would leave the school and attend Councillors' meeting and then she would come back and would give us a lot of work.  We requested that she should focus on her job as a teacher or forfeit her job as a teacher and be a Mayoress.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when, Mr Johnson, were these attempts were made by you and the SRC members?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: These attempts were made in February 1990.  In March 1990 when we first formed the SRC we tried to meet with her and tried to explain to her, to ask her to resign as a Mayoress and continue being a teacher.

HASSAN MALL: Did you know it was the policy of the ANC that people were not to be killed for political reasons?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: According to my knowledge as a member of the Youth Organisation when there were acts such as these since 1985, 1986 and 1987 we burnt peoples' houses in order to push our aim of the struggle.  We saw that certain things came true and other people died because of the struggle.

HASSAN MALL: My question was not that, my question was did you know it was the policy of the ANC that people were not to be killed?  That was the question.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: I was not aware because the community was angry and they were uncontrollable.  I know that the African National
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Congress disagree with the killing of people.

HASSAN MALL: And despite that you took it upon yourself to go there with a gun and fire five shots at this unarmed, unprotected woman in the dark, so that you would not be seen.  That is how brave you thought you were.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: As I have already said in my application that it was an instruction from the Executive Committee of Klipplaat.  We were instructed by the Executive Committee that we have to eliminate Mrs Hanabe in this manner.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you not a member of the Executive Committee?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I was a member of the Executive Committee and we all agreed in that meeting, because I was also suffering as the community was suffering.

JUDGE WILSON: I noticed that you have not told us that you were Chairman of Cosas.  You were weren't you?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: No I was not.  No I was Chairman of SRC.

JUDGE WILSON: I am reading from the evidence that you gave I think at your trial which is part of the papers put before us.
"U en daardie Nomsa Hanabe.  Is dit korrek dat julle nie langs dieselfde vuur gesit het nie?"
Is that the case?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Can you please repeat the question?

JUDGE WILSON: What is the name of this unfortunate woman?  Nomsa Hanabe.  What you said in your evidence is,
"U en daardie Nomsa Hanabe is dit korrek dat julle nie langs dieselfde vuur gesit het nie?"
and your reply was,
"Ja dit is so".
Do you remember giving that evidence?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: No, no  ...(not interpreted)

HASSAN MALL: And the next recorded thing is,
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"Wat is die redes daarvoor, die hoofredes sal dit....?"
And your answer was,
"Eerstens was sy my onderwyseres op skool, was 'n burgermeester terselfdertyd en 'n onderwyseres.  Ek was die voorsitter van Cosas.  Ek was ook die president van die Studenteraad."
Did you give that evidence?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I was the President of the SRC at school and I even declared that in my statement, and other evidence that I gave in court is that I did not say the absolute truth in court because I didn't want to admit guilt.

JUDGE WILSON: You said,  "Ek was die Voorsitter van Cosas".

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: What I can recall clearly is that I did mention that I was the President of the Student Representative Council at school, not Cosas.   Even in my application ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: Just don't talk about your application, let us just talk about your evidence in court.  You have told us that you did not want to tell the court the truth, is that what you said just now?   You did not want to tell the court the truth.  The truth was that you were not the President of Cosas, but you did not want the court to know that.  You told the court that you are the President of Cosas. Is that correct?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: No, I told the court that I was the President of the SRC, that was the genuine truth.  ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: Yes, no, we are talking about Cosas.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: I do not want to lie, I don't remember saying that I was the Chairperson of Cosas.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Johnson, was the Executive Committee of the ANC Youth League, the Students Representive Council aware of the policy of the ANC then not to kill members who belonged to the EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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local Councils?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: I am not sure whether they were aware thereof, but the decision was taken there and even if they were aware but we went beyond the policy of the ANC, because of the peoples' anger.  And that is what led to the decision to eliminate Mrs Hanabe from the community permanently.  And that is how she was shot.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were a member of the Executive Committee of the ANC Youth League, were you not?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So if the Executive Committee was aware of that policy you would have known thereof.  Were you aware of such a decision as an Executive member of the ANC Youth League?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Which decision are you talking about?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you aware of the policy not to eliminate members who belong to local Councils?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: No I was not aware of that policy.  I personally was not aware of that policy.  That is why I became one of the people who took the action against Mrs Hanabe.  If I knew that there were such a policy I would have not been in this position today.

HASSAN MALL: That is not what you said two minutes ago.   You said two minutes ago that the decision to kill was taken because of the anger of the people, we went beyond the policy of the ANC.  That is what you said.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Can you please repeat what you have just said.

HASSAN MALL: You said that the decision to kill Mrs Hanabe was taken because of the anger of the people.   Do you understand?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I do.

HASSAN MALL: You said that we then went beyond the policy of the ANC to kill her.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes Sir.
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