Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: My last question just to clarify, just clarity in our investigation.  There is a security police who gave a statement over and above the things that we heard at the Guguletu-7 hearings, his statement it is clear that indeed these two people were Ascaris were sent from Pretoria.
 Because at the request of the people so that they could search and find the comrades.  One of the things he mentions in his statement, he says Christopher was resident at Nyanga Bush, he was one of the people who were in your home guard working with Zwelitsha and Zwelitsha mentions that in his statement, but I was confused now at the beginning, that Christopher - it seems you don't know Christopher?

MELFORT YAMILE: Is that not Abraham?  is that not Abraham?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: He was called Rasta.

MELFORT YAMILE: That is Abraham.  That is Abraham.  Yes, that is Abraham.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Is that the one who died in Paarl?  There were two people who were called Rasta's.  When we were working in Paarl, there was also another Rasta who died in Paarl, that was one in Nyanga Bush.
 The one who was working with  Zwelitsha was Christopher (indistinct).  Maybe you are talking about another Rasta.

MELFORT YAMILE: There were many Rasta's there but those were in front, were three if not so, the two others I don't know their names.  We were calling ourselves Rasta because we didn't want us to point fingers at each other when we were in trouble.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay, let's leave that as it is.  These guns that were sent to you, where did you get them?

MELFORT YAMILE: When we found out that we were getting into trouble, we will be attacked by Crossroads because we had some people in the community who was selling dagga, we took dagga and gave them to the Coloured people and told them our problem.
 We will exchange the dagga with guns like places like Elsies, Bonteheuwel, Grassy Park.  There are Coloured areas where there are people called Scorpions, we were giving them, they were tasting it first and then give us weapons, so that is how we were getting the weapons.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So these people from Bonteheuwel whom you used to go, how were they calling themselves?

MELFORT YAMILE: Some of them had (indistinct) in their faces, they were just calling themselves gangsters.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So they were the people who were giving you ammunition?

MELFORT YAMILE: Yes, as I've said that is why we were attacked in 1986 and then we had to fight back.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay, I will leave that as it is, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Are there any other questions from the panel?  Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Yamile, sometimes in the last day or two and before, this fight this war in Crossroads and KTC was described as being Black on Black conflict, or a fight between the fathers and the youth.
 Do you think that that is a true description of what happened?

MELFORT YAMILE: No, the fight in Nyanga Bush, Portland was not a fight of fathers and children, it is why Barnard and Mr Ndima were attacking us.  The old people were attacking us.  There were no children involved.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I am not quite sure Mr Ntamo, are you willing to testify immediately after Mr Yamile, is that the reason why you came up together with him?  Would you like to just continue?  Okay, maybe then we should thank Mr Yamile for coming and then to ask Mary Burton to swear you in and to facilitate your testimony.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: (sworn states)

MARY BURTON: Please sit down.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we ask the audience please, we know this is the last witness, but just to be quiet, thank you.

MARY BURTON: Mr Ntamo, just to begin, perhaps could you explain a little bit about your position in the community at the time that we are talking about and also your position now?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: I was a committee member.  I was a committee member in the branch of the Western Cape Civil Association in (indistinct)

MARY BURTON: That was in KTC am I right?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: Yes.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  And now what is your position now?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: I am a Councillor in Ward C14 in KTC.  I am also an organiser of the ANC in KTC.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  As you know what we are trying to do is understand more about the conflicts that happened in 1985 and especially in 1986.  And you have heard the statement by Mr Yamile, so what we want to ask you to do is perhaps give us a little bit more light, anything that you think that needs to be covered.
 But perhaps one of the things that I would like to ask you is that at one time, round about 1984 after the UDF had been established in 1983, pretty well all of the areas that we are talking about, were associating themselves with the UDF, but then the situation in Crossroads changed.
 Can you explain to us how and why that happened?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: Firstly I would say Crossroads was the place where UDF was established and it was formed there.  It was having a stronghold there.  Mr Ngxobongwana was the Chairperson of the Western Cape Civic Association which was part of the UDF.
 What happened is that when he was arrested in 1985, things changed.  Because he was released in a very funny way because we knew that there was an Attorney from Pretoria that stood up for him, because that is how we think the position went on, that's why he turned against us.
 But all this other areas, UDF was established.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  We've heard that one of the beginning conflicts happened in New Crossroads in December in 1985.  And we've heard reference made to Mr Prince Gobingca, was he involved in that conflict and in what way?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: Prince Gobingca was the Director, he was the leader of the conflict.  Because I remember once he told us that after all this fight, they were taken to Sea Point and were taken into a submarine, they were shown how the South African Police equipment is being used and they told them that you will never be defeated by any member of the army.
 So I hope he was one of the leaders during the fight.

MARY BURTON: Do I understand that you are saying that you think he was shown the strength of the South African Police and their capacity to influence an outcome of this conflict?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: South African Police, their role is - they were very scared, they couldn't even come forward and attack us.  In other words there were fear for the unity of the people.  Secondly the cadres from the MK were active and it was clear that they were very, very strong.
 And as people without freedom would come earlier, that I think was the reason they decided to start destroying because in the attack at KTC they said that they were going to destroy all the ANC bases and that gave me the impression that this was planned in Pretoria and the attacks there were actually a mistake, they were planned by the National Party Government.

MARY BURTON: So you saw the actions taken against you as part of a clear strategy, is that right?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: Yes, I saw it as something intended to destroy our unit, but I had never heard any story where police and soldiers could feed people who are going to attack other people because "witdoeke" were fed and then they would come led by the police.  I am talking about something that I saw with my own eyes.
 This means to me, this was a strategy to destroy the ANC bases because they were - because all the bases the areas that they were attacking, these were areas where political activity was very, very high.  This was not an accident.

MARY BURTON: You mentioned that there were MK cadres in KTC.  Can you tell us more or less from what time there was a presence of MK guerillas in the camp?