Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

GEN NEETHLING: Listen, sir, let me ask you, let me say this to you straight, and I'm happy that Professor Forbes is sitting next to you.  Never, ever, in all my discussions we had with many people, the term addiction was risen once by me.  I have no hesitation in saying to you, the way this is applied will not addict anybody, never.  You will not come back tomorrow and say let me make a riot again so that we can get a sniff of that ecstasy.

MR VALLY: The question is very simple, what better form of crowd control could there be than to get an enslaved ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: No, there's no question of enslavement here, there's no question of ever saying we want to addict people to CR or to dagga or to mandrax, or what, that was never the case.  The case at hand is to try and change the mood, and mood changes are done with very small amounts, you do not get addicted by using it once or twice, that's not true.

MR VALLY: You know mandrax is an addictive drug?

GEN NEETHLING: Oh yes, sir, I do indeed.

MR VALLY: And a dangerous one at that.

GEN NEETHLING: Dangerous like what?

MR VALLY: Dangerous to the health.

GEN NEETHLING: No, we have never - there are no people dead ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Dangerous to society?

GEN NEETHLING: Dangerous to society, yes, because they get virtually uncontrollable at some stage when they are in this process of getting to the high, they can become very difficult.  I've seen that myself.

MR VALLY: General, in your various trips and dealings and associations with Dr Wouter Basson, and in your visits to Roodeplaat Research Laboratories, were you ever aware that they were making toxins?

GEN NEETHLING: No, sir, never aware.  Never was the word toxin used by Dr Basson as far as production is concerned, in any dealings I had with him at any time.

MR VALLY: Were you never aware that he produced any substances which could kill people.

GEN NEETHLING: No, no, I knew that they were trying peptides, I knew that they were trying ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: What for?

GEN NEETHLING: They were trying to make the same things, changing mood, changing mood of people.  Peptides are extremely nice things to have.

MR VALLY: So they're only making friendly drugs, they were not making any poisons.

GEN NEETHLING: No, no, we're saying friendly drugs, that is an overestimate, I mean, we're not saying drugs, we're saying chemical substance that will change your mind.  Alcohol changes your mind.

MR VALLY: I see, they were not making any toxic substances as far as you knew?

GEN NEETHLING: No, not that I know of, sir.

MR VALLY: And if there were, what would you have done?

GEN NEETHLING: I have never been to that part of the buildings that were built by Roodeplaat.  I was only concerned with the detection of explosives, and what I saw on my second visit to Roodeplaat, I was privy to an operation on a rat, which technology was attained in order to change the rat so that it can detect explosives for VIP protection.  These are techniques that we picked up overseas.  This is a whole industry which is extremely important to have for any country, and they showed me that on the same basis as the Dessert Mouse which can detect explosives to levels which are unknown even to dogs.  They found out that they can change a little part in the brain and then this rat when it smells at that same level any explosive, it becomes extremely exited, and that is used to protect your VIP's, your presidents.  This used - there's many things going on ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Are you giving us a justification for what he was doing?

GEN NEETHLING: No, no, I'm saying that was the only time I was in a laboratory when they were still close the road, they were building the new ones, I've never been to the new one except in 1993 when I delivered a sample ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: If Dr Basson has asked your for some toxins ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: I have no toxins.

MR VALLY: If he had asked you, what would your reaction had been?

GEN NEETHLING: Go to Onderstepoort.

MR VALLY: Go to where?

GEN NEETHLING: Onderstepoort.

MR VALLY: I see.

GEN NEETHLING: Veterinary Research Institute.  They are using botulism everyday by the ton, by the ton.

MR VALLY: I'll remind you what you said in your trial ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: My trial, what trial, I had so many?

MR VALLY: What trial is this now, please,

GEN NEETHLING: I don't know which one.

MR VALLY: Lothar Neethling versus Max du Preez ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: Oh, that's my favourite one.

MR VALLY: And I read at page 1468,
"If Dirk Coetzee had come to you to obtain poisons and knockout drops, what would have happened then as far as you are concerned",
Your response was,
"I can think of many things.  It depends certainly in which way he approaches me, whether he comes to my office, or whether I meet him in the passage, or where, my reaction would be exactly the same.  I would probably chase him and I would probably have picked up the telephone and called the Commissioner or the ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: I still repeat what I've said, what is the question?

MR VALLY: Do you ...(inaudible) to Onderstepoort to get toxins, whereas you said in this case that you'd get the person arrested.

GEN NEETHLING: You're missing the point, you're missing the point, sir.  You're making an inference which does not exist.  We also discussed things like appearances in the newspaper which says the Russians are working on virus which only works on Negrite skin, you know, this is rubbish, this is the same thing as saying, I would love to have toxin which puts everybody to sleep when I want, because then I will have no problem with the population when they become out of hand.  Any country in the world would like to have something like this, and as a matter of fact, some of our most advanced countries do have things that will scare you, you who are afraid of addition, sir.  I think they got things that really make you scared, which has got nothing to do with addiction.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: This is my very last question.  The reason I quoted this to you was, you made an amnesty application which you subsequently withdrew ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: Which I what?

MR VALLY: Subsequently withdrew.

GEN NEETHLING: No, no, I didn't withdraw it, I was forced to withdraw it.  I'm happy you're asking my this, because I want to have a press conference after this in any case, to clear up a few things ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, I would like you to take note of that in view of the fact that we are pressurised for time here, and I'm being forced to cut my leading of ...(intervention) short,

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, you're taking more time, I've taken all the notes.

GEN NEETHLING: Let me quickly respond, Mr Chairman.  As far as I'm concerned, I asked for amnesty, I said I would like to ask for amnesty for anything that could be laid before me of which I do not at this point in time have any knowledge of.  I do not know what they came with, like this "teeninligtingsinformasie", this is rubbish.  Now, I don't know what they can come up with in the future, then I would like to say, if something like this does occur, and then I got the answer back from the Amnesty Committee, you cannot do that, sorry, unless you state the incident and the time, we cannot even look at you for amnesty, and please withdraw, and I said, under those circumstances if you don't want to help me, I have to withdraw, what else can I do.  I can't go in front of the Amnesty Committee on my knees and beg them, please reconsider, I've got it right here, I've got all the papers here, they sent it back to me.  So, I did not withdraw it, sir, please let the record speak for itself, the Amnesty Committee told me to withdraw unless I specify the deed and the time and the place, which I said I cannot do.