Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MS THABETHE: Now my last question is, in your statement, paragraph 10, you have indicated that this wasn't a serious assault, I have also realised that your other, how should I call them, colleagues for a lack of a better word, have also indicated that this was not a better assault.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Serious assault.

MS THABETHE: Serious assault, sorry, and this is bothering me a little bit, I hope you can help me with this.   Wasserman indicated that when he was there, he wasn't there all the time in the interrogation room, but when he was there, Khubeka was beaten more than 15 times which means that she might have been beaten more, now my question is, what would be serious assault to you, what would you regard as a serious assault if beating someone over 15 times is not a serious assault?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Taylor did not use all his might to strike Ms Khubeka with the sjambok, if he had hit her more severely with the sjambok, then she would have started bleeding, there would have been open wounds on her back, if he had assaulted her seriously.

MS THABETHE: Following from that answer, if she was wearing a polo-neck for example or a jersey, because it was May, I assume it was cold, would you agree with me?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it ever get cold in Durban?

MS THABETHE: It does, Mr Chair.   The evidence has been that she was wearing a polo-neck, if Mr Taylor had ...

MR VISSER: We haven't heard that evidence Mr Chairman.  I am not objecting to the question.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a question for argument, I mean you are just putting it, asking for an opinion.

MS THABETHE: Yes, let me rephrase, if she was wearing a polo-neck for example, or a top that covered her back wherever she was beaten, would you still have realised that the beatings were so hard or so serious?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: If she was wearing a jersey, then she probably wouldn't have felt it to that extent.  The jersey would then have served as a buffer for the blows.  Would you repeat the question please?

MS THABETHE: My question comes from your response, your response was that if she was beaten hard, she would have bled, so what I am asking is, would she still have bled and would you still have seen that she was hit hard, even if she was wearing something over her?

CHAIRPERSON: I think, isn't this the question of opinion, how would he know?  If a person is wearing a thick shirt or a thin shirt or a jersey or a thick jersey or a thin jersey, what are you trying to get for the sake of if she wasn't wearing a jersey, she might bleed?

MR LAX: I think Chair, if I could assist here, I have been restraining myself for a bit because your answer was, well, if he had hit her harder, with all his might, she would have had marks on her body that would have bled.  You didn't see her body, you didn't undress her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I didn't.

MR LAX: You don't know whether she bled or not?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think we would have seen blood if she had been bleeding as a result of the wounds.

MR LAX: How would you have seen that, you didn't take off her clothing?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I didn't.

MR LAX: So?  You don't know, it is as simple as that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I don't know, I don't know whether she was bleeding.

MR LAX: It is a possibility that she did bleed actually?  There is a possibility that she may have had ...(indistinct) and huge marks on her body?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Different people respond differently to such assaults?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: All you can tell us is that in your opinion, he didn't hit her with his full might?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Lax, I am indebted to you.  No further questions Mr Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Any re-examination?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chair.   It was put to you that if the Commander and one more of his cohorts had been in the vehicle, the Toyota Corolla vehicle, and if you accept that Radebe and Dube and Mbane were in the vehicle, how would they all then have fitted into the vehicle?  How many could be seated in the front?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There was room for two, possibly three in the front.

MR VISSER: And at the back?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Four.

MR VISSER: That would depend on the degree of comfort or discomfort?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Could you then describe to us what you recall regarding the size of Ms Khubeka?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Ms Khubeka was a large woman.

MR VISSER: And her mass, was she light?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, she was heavy.

MR VISSER: It was put or suggested to you that you knew that you would be picking up a woman and that was why it was only the five of you who were there.  I want to ask you, did you have anything to do with Mr Gordon's arrest?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And simultaneously did you arrest anyone other than Mr Gordon?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: With Mr Gordon's arrest, I arrested another person first and then after that, I arrested him.

MR VISSER: Therefore you arrested two persons?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Correct.

MR VISSER: How many persons did you have to assist you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was alone.

MR VISSER: Would you arrest a woman by yourself?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR VISSER: The question has actually already been put by Commissioner Bosman, but did any information emanate from the interrogation of Ms Khubeka which according to your recollection, indicated that you would arrest persons or discover safehouses?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Would you allow me a moment, Mr Chair.   Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Adv Bosman, have you got any questions you would like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one aspect.   Why do you say the arrest of Khubeka was unlawful?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: We did not take her immediately to a police station or put her through the books as the regular practice would have been, she was taken to Winkelspruit where she was detained and interrogated.

MR LAX: But many suspects are picked up, many suspects are picked up and taken to pointing outs before they necessarily are booked in, they are taken to questioning?  You had 48 hours?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: So that is not per se unlawful at all?  She died before you could even book her in?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: And according to your impression, your impression was that she would be booked in?  That is your evidence, you thought she had been arrested under Section 29?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.  That was an option in the event of her non-co-operation.

MR LAX: There was nothing unlawful about her arrest in your mind, it is only ex post facto looking back, it has been suggested to you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: But the fact is, it was a perfectly lawful arrest, you were acting within your full, normal powers?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, yes.

MR LAX: Just bad luck that she died?  I mean in your mind?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, yes.

MR LAX: And just one other thing, was there any, in terms of the planning of this operation, and you were there when you were briefed about what was going to happen?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: No efforts were taken to protect the askaris and their pseudo penetration, right?  No effort was taken to protect your informers, why wasn't the operation conducted in such a way as to arrest them as well and give Khubeka the impression that ...