Human Rights Violation Hearings — Newcastle — 1996-09-10

WITNESS:   In 1972 I was working for the Beares Group in town, and at that time we used the transport at a certain taxi rank, and we used taxis at that particular time, or buses.  But on a certain day when I was waiting for the taxi then I saw a certain investigator for the Special Branch.  His name was Mhlongo.  He asked me as to where I was headed for.  I told him that I was going to work, and he further asked me as to whether I was late or I could go with him.  Then he offered me a lift.  As he was driving along the road he was driving very slowly, and many of the cars were passing him, overtaking him.  I even asked him that I suspected I was going to be late because I was supposed to start work at eight, and I thought maybe if I took a taxi I would reach work quite quickly.  He said he wanted to ask me something, and I said he should be free, he should ask anything he wanted to.  He asked me as to where I was attending school in 1960, and I told him that I was attending school at Shalstone.  And he asked me as to who was the headmaster at that time.  I told him it was a certain Mr Sithole.  And he asked me as to whether there wasn't anyone who was a headmaster before Mr Sithole, and I told him it was Mr P V Mbatha.  And he asked as to what I was doing at that time, and he asked me where P V Mbatha was.  I told him that he could not ask me as to where P V Mbatha was because I did not know, but I could give him leads of who he could approach and try to find out about P V Mbatha, because I knew nothing about P V Mbatha.  By the time I got to the school he was at Rhodesia.  He told me that some people were saying they were working for the community but they were actually killers.  I told him I did not understand what he meant by what he was saying.  He said some people alleged that they were helpers of the community.  For instance certain people were coming with AK-47s and killing people, but they would later on claim that they were protecting the community.  And he went on asking me as to how we could kill people, and I told him that I could not answer those questions because I knew nothing.  I did not know what he was referring to.  He said to me I must not answer him on the basis of being an investigator, but I should answer him just as an ordinary person.  I asked him as to what he was referring to, and why was he asking me.  Did he suspect me of having done anything?  He said he asked me because he could see that I was involved in the community, and I knew quite prominent people in the community.  He said to me I knew people who occupied high positions, and I asked him as to what he meant by that.  So he further pointed out that I was always present at the meetings which were held and where these prominent speakers were presenting statements.  And he asked me about the children who had skipped to Cuba, and I asked him as to what had that got to do with me.  He told me that there was a lot happening.  For instance Frank Mdlalose was probably busy helping the children to skip the country.  I further told him that I do not understand what he was getting at, and I wanted to go to work because I was late.  Then he let me get off.  Then on another day he said he wanted to see me, and at that time he was with other people in the car, and he said he wanted to see me very urgently.  And time went on.  By that time I was working for an insurance company.  And when I went to the hospital to work I came across his wife, who also said she wanted to see me because she wanted to take a policy from my insurance company.  I made an appointment with her for the following day, and she said she was going to be off duty.  And I went off to see her, and when I got there she was busy with the house chores and I sat in the sitting-room.  Just after a few minutes she came and she greeted me and went away.  And later on Mhlongo came, and Mhlongo was wearing a gown.  He sat in front of me and he greeted me.  And I asked myself as to what was happening because his wife had actually called me to come and do a policy for her, but now it was Mhlongo who was now sitting with me, and I suspected that there could possibly be a trap.  And we continued with our small talk but we did not go any further, and I decided that I should go because there wasn't much we were talking about.  He wanted to accompany me to show me out.  Then he went into his bedroom, he came back.  He was fully dressed and he was having his car keys, and he said to me we should get into the car.  We drove out.  He started and he drove in the very same place that he was driving on that day that he gave me the lift.  I started suspecting that he had something to tell me, maybe he wanted to say something.  And we drove to my place.  He stopped at the gate.  I asked him as to what his problem was because I could see he wanted to talk to me about something.  His response was that he did not want to say anything to me, but he just wanted to explain to me that as I was a person who was very prominent, who was very popular, and who used to attend meetings, maybe if we could get together it would be for the benefit of both worlds, that is his world as well as mine.  And I asked him as to what he meant by this.  He said, "The Government can even buy you a car, or give you a car, buy you a house."  And I started suspecting.  I asked him as to whether he was referring to me being an informer.  He refuted that, but he said if I could work hand in hand with him, and report on whatever was being said at the meetings that we attended, there is a lot that the Government could do for me because the Government paid.

MR LAX: What was the outcome of this meeting?  What was the outcome of the meeting?