Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CAPT BOKABA: With respect, I have stated this timeously that I never worked with Ngo at the security branch.  How would he have known that you were the only two Black policemen if he had not in fact worked with you at Mamelodi?

CAPT BOKABA: It can happen that Ngo knows that we were security police.  He would see us at the barracks, Danny Selahla would accompany me to the barracks.  Even though he had never stayed at the barracks, but I would go with him, using this security vehicle and people would see and note that we are security police.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I at this point in time note for credibility purposes, that my learned friend put what his instructions were, namely that his instructions were that they were the only two security policemen in Mamelodi, whereas Mr Ngo's evidence did not reflect that. Just for purposes of credibility. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Capt Bokaba, did you discuss your work with Mr Ngo?

CAPT BOKABA: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And if you didn't discuss your work with him, and if he didn't work with you, can you tell us how it came about that he came to know about the involvement of your group, inter-course between your group and GOS? The passing of information, receiving or personal exchange of information, whichever way you may describe it, for example. There may be other things, but I wouldn't like to go into them.

CAPT BOKABA: That is what surprises me. This surprises me really.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ja, on your version it is surprising, but on his version it is not surprising, because he says he worked with you.
DISCUSSION BETWEEN PANEL SOTTO VOCE

CAPT BOKABA: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What are you agreeing to?

CAPT BOKABA: I agree with Judge Wilson that he might have known that we were security police.  Please excuse me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, no, it was put to me.

CAPT BOKABA: Okay, I'm sorry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am just saying you agreed to something is wrong it is not what was being put across to you.

CAPT BOKABA: Sorry.  My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: For him to have known you were security police on the basis that you say, we would have to accept that he either worked or spent a great deal of time in Mamelodi, wouldn't we? I can understand it if he was working with you at Unit 19 in Mamelodi, but they would probably all know that you were the local security policemen.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct, they would know.

CHAIRPERSON: But he was at Rosslyn. He would have no reason for knowing that you were a security police at Mamelodi, would he?

CAPT BOKABA: With respect, Sir, let me explain it.  Unit 19 was based at Rosslyn, and as Unit 19 they dealt with riots or violence and during that time there were unrest or riots in Mamelodi. They would come and work in Mamelodi, this Unit 19.  Ngo knew that I was a security branch police.  I stayed with him in the same barracks at Mamelodi, and  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But I gather - sorry, I gather from your information you stayed with him there for quite a long time, for some years, he was in and out of the barracks at Mamelodi, where you were.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He would have been a foot soldier in Mamelodi, that is an ordinary constable or whatever, if he was patrolling in Mamelodi?

CAPT BOKABA: When I knew him, yes, he was a constable.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He would not have been present at GOS meetings, where you would have passed information.

CAPT BOKABA: No, he wouldn't be at such meetings.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He would have known that you had meetings with Bezuidenhout or whoever? You never saw him when you were at GOS, did you?

CAPT BOKABA: Let me explain it. I do not know Bezuidenhout.  Unit 19 as I have explained, as members of the security branch, there could be a possibility that at times it was in Mamelodi, as members of the security branch, myself and Danny Selahla, as we went to GOS, he could have seen that there is so-and-so entering GOS.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Now the question which we got instructed from, due to an objection from your legal representative, related to whether Ngo said that the only people that he knew were yourself and Selahla. Now let me put to you the questions and answers. It was said Bokaba used the yellow Colt Galant, its private registration number.  The answer was he was using the car, the cars I have mentioned, but I can't deny that there was a Colt Galant.  Now the next was, who was in command at Atteridgeville.  He said I was never taken there.  The next was, you heard of Warrant-Officer Van Wyk, Warrant-Officer Hlongwane.  The answer was no.  The next question was Van Wyk, Hlongwane and Bokaba and later Selahla, worked under Capt Hechter, the security branch members in Mamelodi.  The answer was I don't know those people, I only know Bokaba and Selahla.
	Now how could Ngo have known that you were the only persons there that were working there? If he had not worked with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that they were the only - he said I only knew these people. He said I did know Hechter, Van Wyk, I only knew these people.  That doesn't mean they were the only people working there.  That means they were the only people of the names mentioned that he knew.

ADV MEMANI: Now I will take the point further. If Ngo happened to know about you because of his involvement with GOS, how come does he only know you and Bokaba as the persons who were involved with GOS?  If, on your version, he only went there on a few occasions and there must have been some security branch members who went to that office regularly?

CAPT BOKABA: Sir, as I have already explained, that Unit 19 had to deal with unrest situations, and Mamelodi was - had a lot of unrest, and it can happen that Ngo worked in Mamelodi during that time as members of Unit 19, they were called to work in Mamelodi, because there was unrest and I have explained that the possibility might be that he saw us going to GOS at Mamelodi. Myself and Dennis Selahla. That is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said he might have seen you at the barracks where you stayed for some considerable time as did he.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct, I stated so.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Bokaba, you see Ngo knew you and you knew Ngo. And if that is the case, you would not be putting the answer in a hypothetical fashion, you would be able to say that no, Ngo used to see me when they were patrolling, we used to be together, he would have seen me.

CAPT BOKABA: Sir, are you saying there was a possibility that I would see Ngo as they were driving in a Casspir and I would certainly say that is Ngo in the Casspir?

ADV DE JAGER: What he is putting to you, is that Ngo would have seen you operating in Mamelodi, because he knew you, you slept together and the next morning he will be in the Casspir or wherever, patrolling and there they would see you travelling with the Galant, for instance.

ADV MEMANI: With due respect, that is not what I am putting, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, well, put your question please then?

ADV MEMANI: What I am putting to you, is that you knew Ngo and Ngo knew you, and that being the case, your answer would not be that it is possible that Ngo saw me. It would be simply that Ngo saw me, he used to see me, we knew each other and also  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: The question was how did he know, as I understood your question, that you were members of the security branch, and he explained what he may have seen me going into the GOS offices. This is not did he know you, but did he know that you were a member of the security branch.  That is what you were asking him, wasn't it Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.