Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, the application, sorry.  For the record, this is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee to hear the applications of Mr S W Motaung, Mr N G Sibisi, Mr J M Sithole and Mr B P Dlamini.  The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson, of Mrs Sisi Khampepe and Mr Denzil Potgieter.  Gentlemen, will you please put yourselves on record?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman, committee members.  My name is John Wills.  I represent all applicants.

MR MIRANDA: Mr Chairman, committee members, my name is
Colas Miranda.  I represent the victim's family.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, members of the committee, J M Mpshe representing the TRC, particularly the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, I see that there are, there is application for four persons set down before us today, but that there are only three people present.  Could you perhaps explain.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that is so.  The fourth person, B P Dlamini, is today not present due to the information that he may have received yesterday that the police, the SAPS, want him, they want to arrest him.  I can put it on record that they were here yesterday.  I had a talk with them in the afternoon and informed them that they have got to be here today to connect with the legal representative of Dlamini.  That is the reason why he is not here, I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would appear his absence is not exactly voluntary.  Subject to what anyone may have to say, it seems to me that in those circumstances one should adjourn his application, but that it may not be necessary to have a separate hearing in the event of a decision being arrived at with the other three.  It may well be subject to anything his representatives may have to say.  It is possible to make a similar order in respect of him.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I am respectfully in agreement with that position.  I confirm what Advocate Mpshe has indicated, it does appear from the information I have received from the other applicants, that the reason for the failure of the fourth applicant to appear today is that he was threatened with arrest at this hearing, but as regards the adjournment of the application, I confirm that I, from his point of view it is in his interest and I would submit that that is in order.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Does anyone else wish to say anything in regard to the question of adjourning the application of Dlamini?

MR MIRANDA: Mr Chairman, committee members, the opinion of my clients, the victim's family, is that they would like this matter finalised today.  So, they have no objection to this matter being adjourned and they have no objection to abiding by the decision of the committee in relation to these three also being implemented to the fourth person who is not here today.  Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will then, Mr Chairman, hand over to my learned friend, Mr John Wills, to lead the first applicant.  I believe it will be Motaung.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairman, may they be sworn in?  Mr Motaung.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Motaung.  Your full names please.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Sipho W Motaung

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: (Duly sworn in, states).

SISI KHAMPEPE: The witness has been sworn in.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman, committee members.  Mr Motaung, you are applying for amnesty in respect of what matters?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It is in connection with a murder and also escape, escaping from prison after the case was concluded.

MR WILLS: Excuse me, if you could just bear me with Mr Chairman.  I am just trying to get this apparatus working.  Mr Motaung, you made an affidavit in support of an amnesty application in regard to these matters on the 3rd of December 1996.  Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the affidavit which is at page ten of the record?

MR WILLS: That is correct Mr Chairman.  Mr Motaung, can you tell me about how you got involved with the ANC?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I joined the ANC, because I was not satisfied by the former Government's policies.  The regime at that, time it was a regime which oppressed the people.  For example, I use to see police terrorising the people or harassing the people and it was so difficult for us to bear this.  Sometimes the police will harass us.  They even harassed my father.

MR WILLS: What was your father's name?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It is Walter Motaung.  He was Walter Motaung.

MR WILLS: Is it correct that you eventually joined Umkhonto we Sizwe?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct, I joined the ANC's armed wing.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the committee the circumstances leading up to you joining Umkhonto we Sizwe and a little bit about the training you received in relation thereto.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I joined the ANC's armed wing in 1984 and I went to exile.  I came back to work underground in South Africa operating the guerilla warfare.

MR WILLS: Did you receive training inside or outside the country in regard to this period?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I got training outside the country.  I went to Swaziland, Zambia, Tanzania.

MR WILLS: How did you cross the South African borders in this regard?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I skipped through the Pongola, I crossed the Pongola River.

MR WILLS: Do I take it that you did not, in fact, go through a formal customs post?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.  I did not skip the country, I did not get out of the country lawfully.

MR WILLS: When you returned to South Africa after having been trained, you have mentioned that there were certain people who were in the organisation that you worked with.  Can you give the committee the names of these people?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: The person that I met was Rita, Mandla and Sipho.

MR WILLS: Do you know the full names of these people and, if so, please give the committee the details thereof.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I have a problem, because the two of them, Rita and Mandla, I only know them by their names.  I do not know their surnames.

MR WILLS: And what about Sipho?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: He was Sipho Maloko.

MR WILLS: Is that spelt M O L O K O?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It is Maloko, M A L O K O.

MR WILLS: These people, were they, how did they fit into the structures?  Were they senior to you or junior to you or were they just ordinary members of the ANC or were they members of the, were they also members of Umkhonto we Sizwe?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: They were MK members and they were seniors.

MR WILLS: At any stage, did you conduct the training in respect of any other persons in, did you train any other persons in respect of military activities?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Please may you repeat your question.  Please may you repeat your question.

MR WILLS: At any stage did you, were you involved in the training of other persons in regard to military matters?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you give ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, I do not want to interfere in any way with the leading of evidence, but looking at the affidavit it appears there is a three year period that we have jumped, that this took place not on his, as I understand the affidavit, not on his return to the country, but after he came out of prison in 1988, if you look at paragraph 12.  Is that so?

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So we now talk about 1988, not his earlier return?

MR WILLS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think you need to go into it, because it sets out fully in the affidavit, but just to get the record straight that we have jumped three years.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Alright, Mr Motaung, I want to concentrate now on the first crime in respect of which you are applying for amnesty and that is the murder of Lolo Lombo on the 31st of October 1990.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: May you please repeat the question for me.

MR WILLS: No, it is not a question.  I am just telling you now that I am wanting to concentrate, in the next few minutes, on the actual murder of Lolo Lombo in October 1990.  Okay.