Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct]  who arranged that funeral.  Was it the family or was it an organisation or what?

MS MATLAKALA: His organisation together with the family organised the  proceedings of the funeral.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anything else that you want to add to your evidence because I'm about to ask  Ms Mabozo to talk.

MS MATLAKALA: I think you can carry on with this - with Ms Mabozo, you'll ask me later on.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, so I'll then ask Ms Mabozo.  Ms Mabozo where do you live?

MS MABOZO: I stay at Kagiso 108, that is in Ipopeng.

ADV POTGIETER: And is that where the incident happened - the shooting incident where Lathli was killed?

MS MABOZO: Yes, that's the place where the thing happened.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you the Aunt of Lathli, the deceased?

MS MABOZO: I'm his grandmother.

ADV POTGIETER: His grandmother?  Now this incident that happened, can you explain what - what actually - what took place?

MS MABOZO: Yes, I can explain what happened.  In 1987 - it was in August - it was in the morning at 4 o'clock while we were sleeping we heard a knock at the door.  And I peeped threw the window and I saw guys facing at the window.  My husband woke up to open the  door and when he opened they handcuffed him and they let him stay outside.  
 I was shocked, why didn't he speak and I went out to go and investigate.  These white policemen said to me I should take the children out of the house.  Well, I called my children outside but Lathli stayed inside.  While I was still outside they took a tear gas and they threw it into the house.  Lathli picked it up and threw it back and he closed the door.  One of the boys shouted - I don't know whether he is a police.  He said  Lathli get out - Lathli got out of the house and he - he raised his hands.  He started shouting, he said  Mum they are taking me away.

ADV POTGIETER: Ms Mabozo we know that it's very difficult to recount and take your time but it is important for us to hear the story of Lathli so that  the Commission can deal with that.  When you feel a bit better  then we can carry on.

MS MABOZO: Yes, we can carry on.

ADV POTGIETER: What happened further?

MS MABOZO: And they took my husband - they put him into the van and they left with him and we were still outside together with the children.  We stayed for quite a long time - it was really a long time.  And one of the white men said  All lights should be put off.  I don't know what were they doing inside the house.  It was now morning and they left one policeman behind and a lot of them went away.
 And I asked him whether I should  open the house so that the children can prepare themselves to go to school and he refused.  When I got into the house at - at a later stage everything was broken, windows were broken.  All the shelves were upside down and they - they shot the walls.  Even now there are holes - bullet holes.  On Sunday they came to fetch me and they took me to the 6th floor.  When we arrived there, they put me in a - in a room and they let me sit on the chair.
 And they said I should tell them where Lathli was, they said I should tell them the truth.  I said to them  I don't know any truth that I can tell you because I don't know where Lathli is.
And they took me to the other room - there was a Tswana policeman and he blindfolded me and he put something into my ears.  And those things - those sharp things damaged my ears.  They said to me  Speak the truth.  I said to them  There is no truth that is further than what I've said.  They put these sharp instruments back into my ears and they - they were hurting.  I said There is nothing that I can tell you I stayed there for the whole day and in the afternoon this Tswana policeman said  We should take him to the Barkley cells so that he - she can sleep there because she doesn't want to tell us anything.
I was so deeply hurt to hear that I have to go and sleep in the cells.  While I was taken to Barkley - I slept there Sunday and Monday.  Tuesday morning they came to - to take me and they took me to the 6th floor.   The evening of the same day they took me back home.

ADV POTGIETER: Ms Mabozo I - I just need to take you back slightly because it is important for us to  have all the facts.  I just want to go back to the incident itself.  Now you explained that at one stage after your husband was taken by the police you were told to go outside with the children which you did.  Now, can you explain to us again from that point when you were outside in the street with the children and you said Lathli was inside the house.  Can you - can you explain to us what happened, how did the shooting happen?

MS MABOZO: The - this person shouted, he said Lathli, Lathli come out.  Lathli got out of the house, his hands were up.  And the door was open and they started shooting and his hands were still held up.  And he fell on his knees and they got into the house and they closed the door.  And then they started shooting - I don't know how many times did they shoot at him.

ADV POTGIETER: Was - was Lathli inside the house together with the police or - or what happened?  We just need to understand exactly  [intervention]

MS MABOZO: They shot him the first time, he was alone in the house.  He was in the passage, they were outside but the door was open.  But when he shouted  Mother,  he fell on his knees and then they got into the house - they closed the door.

ADV POTGIETER: Did the police shoot tear gas into the house at any stage?

MS MABOZO: They started with the tear gas first - they shot the tear gas first.

ADV POTGIETER: Now, what - what happened when you went back inside your house, what did you see inside there, what was the condition of your house and the furniture?

MS MABOZO: My furniture was badly damaged, the display glasses were shot and they were broken.  Even the door frame - there - there's still a hole - a bullet hole.

ADV POTGIETER: Now I just want to see whether I understand the evidence correctly.  Was it after Lathli was shot that the police went into the house and when a lot of shots were fired inside the house?

MS MABOZO: They shot Lathli and they got into the house and they started shooting - they continued shooting.

ADV POTGIETER: And afterwards could you see in which direction the - the police were shooting.  Could you - could you see marks in the house - bullet marks?

MS MABOZO: The one that is - the bullet mark that is in the house is the one that was shot from outside.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct]  with him on that morning when the police came to your house?

MS MABOZO: No he didn't have any weapon.

ADV POTGIETER: Before that - the shooting happened was he living with you for some time?

MS MABOZO: Yes, he'd being staying with me for a month.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you see any weapons - any arms during that time that he was with you for about a month?

MS MABOZO: I've never seen him carrying anything.

ADV POTGIETER: Now we - we've heard that Lathli was gone for more that a month - I'm sorry more than a year from home - about a year and seven months according to his mother.  Have you - have you got any idea where he had been to during that period?

MS MABOZO: When I - when he came back I asked where he was.  He said  No I'd been away to - to Leng.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Ms Mabozo, we'll just hear if Ms Mabilo has got anything to add to her evidence before I conclude.  Ms Mabilo was there anything else that you wanted to tell us about this incident?