Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

UNKNOWN: This is specifically - I know many people will find it difficult to believe Mr Chair, the South African Defence Force went through a process of cleaning up its act.  You know about the CCB that was closed down and a number of other so-called front companies of the past that was closed down, and they were preparing themselves for changes, and from 1990 onwards a lot of defence force people who belonged to these elements that were closed down were in fact jobless and they came to places like Ciskei.  Some of them recently joined in large numbers Executive Outcomes just as an example.  When the news broke from Colonel Hugo that this organisation was involved in so-called dirty tricks and illegal activities and that former South African Defence Force members were involved there was an allegation that this was in fact a re-grouping of former people from these closed down organisations.  And to protect South African interest that is why it was closed down.  That is how it was explained to me.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you again Chair.  Were you a member of the CCB yourself?

UNKNOWN: I was a member of the CCB yes.

BONGANI FINCA: And you were connected with this project, this covert operation?

UNKNOWN: I was also a member of the Ciskei Intelligence Services for four months, yes Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: Did you get any payment via the fund that you
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
13 C NEL
have referred to, International Researchers?

UNKNOWN: For four months I received my government salary via that account.  The system how it worked was that Mr Mogadji, who was the DG of the Council of State would on a monthly basis pay the funds for the Ciskei Intelligence Service out to them by means of a cheque made out to International Researchers, our salaries were then deposited into the bank account and I was paid with a cheque from International Researchers for from May, end of May until end of September I was paid by the International Researchers, yes.

BONGANI FINCA: And are you aware of a statement made in the SADF document which was used in the Pretoria Supreme Court which alleges that yourself and Ockert Swanepoel actually remained in Ciskei at the instruction of Anton Nieuwoudt to actually continue the activities of this organisation which was allegedly being closed down?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair to be honest there are so many reports about me in the newspapers that I can't keep track.  That is a new one to me.  But I, from what you have stated there I can detect the origin of that, it is most probably an allegation by Colonel Hugo, and there is no truth in it.  I was asked by General Ulshig, and he can come and testify to that effect to remain because there was in fact no intelligence service left in the Ciskei.  They had to go and look for new people.  What was left in the Ciskei after the so-called aborted Jamingele Coup was corporals and I think one lieutenant.  No there wasn't even a lieutenant, it was only non-commissioned officers.  So that was what was left in the Ciskei Defence force, or Intelligence force.  So I remained because there was a job for me.  The fact of the
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
14 C NEL
matter Mr Chair is that the South African Defence Force treated me very badly, when they asked me to leave their services and I ended up jobless and I had a thing in me not to work for them again.  Today I work for the South African National Defence Force, it's a different thing, and people do not understand how CCB members felt when they were told you are useless idiots, you have served us and now you are no longer good, go, here's your package, don't say anything, don't speak to the press, sign this paper, go.  People don't understand how the people feel.  That is why people can go and work for the MPLA government today fighting against Unita who used to be former allies of the South African Defence Force, because they feel nothing for the former South African Defence Force.  So anybody accusing me of working for the South African Defence Force, after they treated me the way they did, must come with me and we will have to sit down and I will have to explain to him a few things.

MR POTGIETER: Whilst you are on that point I just wanted to round it off, it appears as if you were then linked to the special forces of the South African Defence Force?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I was an Intelligence Officer from day one, or from after my national service in the Defence Force.

MR POTGIETER: But if you say that you were a member of the Civil Cooperation Bureau, then you would have been involved in the special forces, that's where the CCB fits into the SADF hierarchy.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  The way I understand it Mr Chair was that the CCB is in fact 3 Reconnaissance Regiment, that is the organisational name of the CCB according to my
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
14 C NEL
knowledge.  You find 1 Reconnaissance, 2 Reconnaissance and then there is no 3 Reconnaissance Regiment anywhere, 4 and 5 it's known by everybody.

MR POTGIETER: Ja, but it was a ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: It was a special forces organisation, yes.

MR POTGIETER: Ja.  It was a covert operation, but just to round off this point have you been involved with the SADF special forces in the old South West Africa?

UNKNOWN: No.  The time when I was deployed in South West Africa, Namibia today, I was there for 7 years, and I was a members of Army Intelligence, wearing uniform, I was working in the Intelligence office in Oshakati.  I later on became the officer commanding of the POW camp in Oshakati.  I specialised in interrogation.

MR POTGIETER: Was your pseudonym "Charlie November"?

UNKNOWN: That is my initials Sir.

MR POTGIETER: But that is what you were called whilst you were operating in Oshakati?

UNKNOWN: No my name was Chris Nel known by everybody because I was wearing uniform.  I had no reason to use any pseudonym.

MR POTGIETER: You have never heard the pseudonym "Charlie November"?

UNKNOWN: I had four caspers with the name, with my initials, that's my call sign if you talk on the radio, you say Charlie November and the next guy with the initials of Yankee Victor, he will use that initial as his call sign on the radio for formal defence communication.

MR POTGIETER: Were you involved in the interrogation of plan fighters that were arrested on the border?

UNKNOWN: That was my job, that was what I was paid for EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
15 C NEL
and given medals for Sir, yes.

MR POTGIETER: Whilst you were a member of the Civil Cooperation Bureau were you operating under the pseudonym Derek Louw?

UNKNOWN: No I never used the name Derek Louw.  I used the name Derek Louw during a commission of inquiry.  My name was Derek Farrell.

MR POTGIETER: Derek?

UNKNOWN: Derek Farrell.

MR POTGIETER: Farrow?

UNKNOWN: Farrell, with a double 'R' and a double 'L', yes.

MR POTGIETER: I am sorry I can't hear it.

UNKNOWN: Farrell, F-A-R-R-E-L-L.

MR POTGIETER: During what period were you involved in the CCB?

UNKNOWN: Say again Sir?

MR POTGIETER: During which period were you involved in the CCB?

UNKNOWN: In 1988 we were told to resign from the Defence Force because it was a covert operation and we had to detach from the Defence Force officially.  We were given our final pay on the 31st of March 1991.

MR POTGIETER: And who were you reporting to in the CCB?

UNKNOWN: We were divided into regions.  There were in total I think 10 regions.  I was part of region 1 and region 4, which was Angola and Botswana.

MR POTGIETER: So you were regions 1 and 4.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Four being the one that operated outside the borders?
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
16 C NEL

UNKNOWN: One and four both operated outside the borders, region 6 were the internal people, those were the people who testified in the Harms Commission.

MR POTGIETER: Who did you report to in regions 1 and 4?