Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Well, with respect, it does Mr Chairman. He's placing words in the mouth of the witness which the witness hasn't testified to and that's unfair.  And I just don't see the point in it because it's just wasting time, with all due respect.
    He says Citi was his suspect, why can't we just stick to that, Mr Chairman?

ADV MEMANI: And you told us that your superior told you to go and have a look at the house because you were working about Citi, Citi was one of the persons you were working about, you were investigating or whatever.

MR VISSER: I object.  This witness did not say so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the indication I got was that he certainty was investigating him.

MR VISSER: That's the point, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's what he said, that he was investigating him.

MR VISSER: That he was working about him doesn't ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And then Mr Memani corrected it and said: "investigating".  So let's not have these objections, objections, objections.  Carry on Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Did you hear the question?

MR MIMINGWA: I have a problem about Mr Memani's question because I don't know what he is looking for. He was saying I was working about Citi, if he can give me a clearer explanation about that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let's start again, Citi, you have told us was one of the trade unionists and activists in whom the security branch were obviously interested, is that not so?

MR MIMINGWA: Those are my words.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and for that reason your superior told you to go and verify whether this information you had received from an informer was true.

MR MIMINGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you kept a sub-file on Citi's Mzuzwana's parental home, isn't it?

MR MIMINGWA: I don't know about the file concerning his parents, I only know about Citi Mzuzwana's file.

ADV MEMANI: But on Friday when I put it to you that there was a sub-file on Citi Mzuzwana's parents, you conceded.

CHAIRPERSON: My note is that he said he did not know.

ADV MEMANI: Oh, I beg your pardon Mr Chair.
	Now, Mr Miningwa, you are denying that you had any knowledge of Citi Mzuzwana's parental home sub-file because you were present when Mr Motsamai petrol- bombed that house.

MR MIMINGWA: I know nothing about Mzuzwana's parents sub-file.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when their house was petrol-bombed?

MR MIMINGWA: I explained Sir, clearly, that I know nothing about the house of Mzuzwana's parents when it was petrol-bombed.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, this will be my last question but it seems there's some instructions.
    Now, my instructions are that you never investigated Citi Mzuzwana's parental house, no, Citi Mzuzwana's house, because security branch did not do anything about the matter and it was left in the hands of the CID.

MR MIMINGWA: I hear that for the first time, I learn that for the first time.  I was given an instruction to verify as to whether is it Citi's own house which has been burnt as the informer has said.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that the matter was referred to CID.

CHAIRPERSON: He never said he investigated it, he went to the place and he said he saw the big window was broken and it looked as if the curtain had been burnt.

ADV MEMANI: May I proceed Mr Chair?
    And that did not go there because you were investigating Mzuzwana as such, because it was known that security branch had done it.

MR MIMINGWA: Maybe he knows that he burnt the house but at that time as I was working with the trade trade unions, we did not know that the security branch bombed Citi's own house.  That is why my senior said I should go there and verify as to whether that house is burnt or not.  Maybe he knows that he is the one who is responsible for the burning of that house.

ADV MEMANI: Now, tell me, you knew that files were kept of certain people who were involved in political activities, isn't it?

MR MIMINGWA: They were there, they were not stored, they were there.

ADV MEMANI: When these allegations were made, why didn't you take the trouble of going and looking at the files and see what Motsamai is talking about?

MR MIMINGWA: I want to say, may you please repeat your question because I don't understand your question as to whether they were kept now more or they were kept them.  But I say then they were there, I'm not sure whether they now are kept or stored.

ADV MEMANI: You told us that you had a file on Citi Mzuzwana, isn't it?

MR MIMINGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Motsamai alleges that Citi Mzuzwana's home was burnt and you know about that one isn't it?

MR MIMINGWA: Yes, about Citi's old home.

ADV MEMANI: He also mentions the burning of his parental house.

MR MIMINGWA: That is correct.  As you say, I learnt that for the first time.

ADV MEMANI: And he says he did that during the course of his duties as a member of the security branch.

MR MIMINGWA: I learnt that.

ADV MEMANI: And did you not know anything about the bombing of the house of the the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana?

MR MIMINGWA: I know nothing about that.

ADV MEMANI: And my question is, why don't you take steps to verify like going to the office ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Because this is 13 years ago and he says he doesn't know if the files are there.  Do you think files of incidents 13 years ago to still be kept in the office?
    And how long ago Mr Memani, was it when you said this is my last question?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases. I did not hear him to say that he did not know ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He said it a few minutes ago that he didn't know if the files were still there.
	Didn't you say that?

MR MIMINGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: I thought at that stage, Mr Chairman, there was some problem with the interpretation, there was keeping and storing and so on and that that is why I stopped using the word: "keep" and I used the word "had".
    If Mr Chairman, you could allow me to ask the
question?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think Mr Memani, what do you expect him to find in the file, what must he go and look for in the file?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman, I would expect him to go for instance and look the file and say there was no such file for instance, because he says he did not know anything about a file kept by the Mzuzwana's.
    If it's an incident that he knows nothing at all about when in fact he was working with Citi Mzuzwana I would have expected him to have gone and had a look and see if there was anything perhaps in the nature of a sub-file kept about Mzuzwana's parents or whether they had a political profile of their own that justified Motsamai going to bomb that house in the course of duty.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You may carry on like the chairperson has said.  I don't quite appreciate what you should go and look for.

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases, I will leave the matter there.  I have no further questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR VISSER: No re-examinations Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Would this be a convenient time to adjourn for the luncheon Mr Chairman?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR VISSER: I call the next witness, Mr Mtyhala.  It is spelt m - t - y - h - a - l - a.  There is an affidavit of this gentleman before you in bundle B at page 32.
    Mr Mtyhala just switch on the microphone in front of you please.
    Are you Reginald Mxolisi, spelt M-x-o-l-i-s-i Mtyhala - M-t-y-h-a-l-a?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: (sworn states)

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Are you a policeman?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What is your rank?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Sergeant, Sir.

MR VISSER: Did you become aware that certain allegations were made against you?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you at one point in time go to Pretoria to see a lawyer?