Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He came to us, the Commander came to us and he told us that this person was seen at Khumalo Street, standing at the bus stop and then he instructed us to go and fetch the AK47 rifles and we took two AK47 rifles, there were five of us, we took a taxi at Khumalo Street, we found him there.
	We took him into the kombi, we took him to Polla Park.  We arrived at Polla Park, he was questioned as to what it was that he was looking for, because we had already told them that we had ...

UNKNOWN: Okay, before you proceed.  You said there were five of you to carry out that instruction, who were the other people who were with you when you went to pick him up in a taxi?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It was myself, Themba, Mswazi, Quambi.  I don't know the other boy's name because I just saw him for the first time on that particular day, and Vusi.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  You said you picked him up in a taxi, you took him to Polla Park.  What was the purpose of you taking Qobani to Polla Park?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He was to be questioned as to what was it that he was looking for in our section, Mlungeni Section.

UNKNOWN: What transpired when you arrived at Polla Park?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We showed him to the people there, we introduced him to the other Commanders.  I don't know the comrade from Polla Park, Vusi and Themba were talking and they questioned him, but he said nothing and he was searched.  His ID book was found and the card, membership card, and he was told to go to the playground at Polla Park.
	A firearm was pointed.

UNKNOWN: You said when he was searched his ID document was found and IFP card, what do you mean?  Was this an IFP membership card?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, after he was searched, what happened then?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the questions.

UNKNOWN: After he was searched, what happened?  After you found that documentation, his ID document and his IFP membership card, what did you people do to him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He was questioned but he did not respond.  He was told to go to the playground and the firearms were pointed at him.
	He went into the playground, he was shot at, but he ran towards Eden Park.  He got into a police car that was in Eden Park.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether he was, there was anything done on him on that particular day, was he assaulted or anything?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No.  I heard nothing.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember during our consultation you mentioned that although you yourself didn't assault him personally, but some other people did assault him.  What do you say about that?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, he was assaulted.  I think he was wearing a jacket, that jacket was taken off.  He was standing on the other side, because there were other people who were questioning him.

UNKNOWN: To who did you take Qobani to Polla Park, were you taking him to any specific person at Polla Park, or were you just taking him to a place in Polla Park for interrogation?  What was the situation there?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Our Commander instructed that he be interrogated, he be questioned, because the people wanted to know what is it that he was doing at Mlungeni.

UNKNOWN: My question to you is why did you choose Polla Park?  Did you choose Polla Park because you wanted to take him to a specific person who was going to conduct the interrogation or were you taking him to Polla Park, to a certain venue to interrogate him there?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We were taking him there because in the township, there were people who were against ANC.  There were informants, that is why we decided to take him to Polla Park.

UNKNOWN: So these people that you mentioned that joined in in the interrogation, where did they come from?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Will you please repeat the question.

UNKNOWN: You said on your arrival in Polla Park, there were other people who assaulted him and you just stood by and watched, where did this people come from?  How did it come about that they joined you?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: This boy who was in our company, is the one who got inside in one of the shacks and he came out with another gentleman.  Then he called the others.

UNKNOWN: With this particular incident, is there any stage where firearms were used, where he was pointed with firearms or something of that nature?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, because during questioning the firearms were pointed at him.

UNKNOWN: Did you point him with a firearm?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I did when we were taking him into the kombi, when we arrived there at the spot, this other guy took the firearm.
	After questioning him, they instructed him to go into the playground and he was shot at.

UNKNOWN: Do you know who shot at him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I don't know his name, it is someone that I did not know very well.

UNKNOWN: Do you know the owner of the kombi that you used in transporting Qobani to Polla Park?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, we just stopped a kombi.

UNKNOWN: How did you take this kombi, did you take it and drive it yourself or did you request this person to assist you in transporting Qobani to Polla Park?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: The owner, we stopped the owner of the kombi and he asked him to transport us to Polla Park, but we are not yet at the spot where Qobani was and then we opened the sliding door and we instructed him to stand at a spot where Qobani was and we pointed him with firearms and we took him into the car.
	I don't know the owner of the kombi.

UNKNOWN: What I am trying to establish from you Mr Motjale is, you didn't take this kombi by force or you didn't in any way force the driver to take you to Polla Park.  He requested him and he agreed to assist you?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We did not force him, we requested him to help us and he agreed.

MR SIBANYONI: I am sorry, how were you holding your weapons?  Were you concealing your weapons or were they open?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: They were concealed.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So the driver could not have felt threatened or pressurised into giving you a lift?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I don't know whether he was threatened or not, I did not take notice.  I did not take notice.  We were wearing duster coats and we just stopped the taxi and we asked him.

UNKNOWN: You are saying that on this specific day Qobani managed to run away, he was shot at.  Do you know whether he suffered any injuries on this particular day?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I do not know because he ran away.  He did not stop.  When he was instructed to go into the playground, two boys were shooting and the other one from Polla Park, they were shooting and we just saw him running away until he arrived at the other side of Eden Park.

UNKNOWN: So you didn't observe any shots that struck him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, because he was at a distance and he was also running away.

UNKNOWN: The fact that on that particular day, you yourself didn't fire any shots, can you say you agree with what was happening to Qobani at the playgrounds as he was assaulted and shots were fired to him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: This other comrade wanted the firearm that was in my possession.  It was not yet mentioned at that time that Qobani would be killed.
	I gave him the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't your Commander make that order prior to his kidnapping?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Will you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your Commander not order his death even before he was kidnapped?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: The Commander said something just before he was fetched, he said shoot, kill just before we could go and fetch him.  He told us that he should be questioned.
	He instructed that he be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: So when he was kidnapped, when you participated in his kidnapping, you knew that the kidnapping was to facilitate his killing, not so?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.