Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I want to put it clearly that when I started in Soweto, I was part of the west.  There were two information component branches under two Officers in charge.
 At that stage already I was a part of the west and all my informations, activities with the west as geographic basis, came through the west as geographic basis and not through the east.  I in person never had informers with regard to Mrs Mandela and had she moved to the west, I would not have tasked informers with regard to her.
 I pointed out just now that according to my knowledge there were a group of persons who performed the activities, monitored the activities of Mrs Mandela carefully in that time, that was their responsibility.
 And therefore I did not task any informers with regard to Mrs Mandela and I was working with foreign MK overall activities.

MR VALLY: You mean that you never exchanged information with your colleagues about what happened in one part of Soweto?  You strictly stuck to your part of Soweto?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.  There was in the beginning when we were part of the overt information component, there was information in the morning around a conference table, we exchanged information but I must say information I cannot say today whether it was substantiated information.
 I am also referring to a time when we began to generate more covert information and moving out of the normal structure.

MR VALLY: It is absolutely not clear to me why you can't answer a simple question.  You had daily briefings, your Unit's task is specifically to recruit and place informers.  On the basis of your daily briefings, were you or were you not aware that informers had been placed close to or within the Madikizela-Mandela household?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I speak under correction, but I think Mrs Mandela's restriction orders were lifted.  I don't know when, but I want to say that at that stage we had already at that stage, been operating on a more covert basis and I had an order from a Colonel de Jager with myself as Operational Commanding Officer, I did not receive such tasks from Colonel de Jager with regard to Mrs Mandela.
 And Colonel de Jager in his turn would have liaised with his equal and coordinated the information on that basis.

MR VALLY: During your briefings were you ever made aware of the fact that an informer had been placed near or in the Madikizela-Mandela household?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I would like to get back to one aspect.  One, I did not attend meetings daily.  Two, you must understand the informants' methods that handlers would never admit or identify an informer to his colleagues in terms of his access or his placement.

MR VALLY: Who were the people who monitored Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: That I can remember from the meetings that I did attend, was Colonel Claassen who was at that stage the information or component head of the east and at that stage, today, Colonel Piet Grundling and members under the direct command and leadership.
 What happened was that from time to time ...

MR VALLY: Your statement ended abruptly from time to time, did you say more?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I cannot hear you.  According to me Colonel Claassen and Colonel Grundling with members under their command were responsible for the east.  And in terms of their area to monitor suspects, of the members were transferred, it was not a constant unit of members that were permanently there.
 Members were from time to time transferred or they left and that is what I mean by the members varied from time to time.

MR VALLY: I would appreciate it Mr Coetzee if you gave me a specific answer to a specific question.  In the time when you were in Soweto, who was in charge of the section where Mrs Madikizela-Mandela lived?  We are talking about the section that ...

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Colonel Claassen.

MR VALLY: Now, are you aware at all of  MK guerillas going to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, either the one at Orlando-West or the one in Diepkloof Extension?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I would like to put it this way.  The activities of MK members were a general subject of discussion and it is possible that I had upon occasion heard from a member or someone of a specific MK member or MK members who associated themselves with Mrs Mandela or who functioned under her auspices.

MR VALLY: You were personally aware of this?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I was aware, but I had no access.

MR VALLY: Are you aware in your daily briefing sessions, whether a decision was made by the senior officers in your Unit that these issues needed to be followed up?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: There were many rumours around the monitoring of her activities, as I said.  Much information that I cannot tell you whether it was substantiated.
 I am aware of the fact and I heard upon occasion as already referred to by Kritzinger, that they were busy with a court oriented investigation against Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Had you people at the stage you were in Soweto, infiltrated the Soweto Youth Congress?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Yes.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of divisions with in the Soweto Youth Congress which subsequently led to the formation of the Mandela United Football Club?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of members of the Soweto Youth Congress who later became members of the Mandela United Football Club?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I would, I think that I heard of members of the Youth who formed part of the Football Club concerned.

MR VALLY: So were the informers that you had placed within the Soweto Youth Congress also now placed within the Mandela United Football Club?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

MR VALLY: Did you subsequently, or your colleagues subsequently try and infiltrate informers into the Mandela United Football Club?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I would like to put it this way.  In the information compilation component, I am not aware of any member in our charge tasked by Colonel de Jager and myself to place agents in the specific Football Club.

MR VALLY: Were you aware that the Mandela United Football Club had been linked to a number of illegal activities in Soweto?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I know of rumours, but I cannot confirm it.  It was in the late 1987's.

MR VALLY: If you are aware of such rumours, why informers within the Mandela United Football Club to determine the veracity of such rumours?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: At that stage as I have already said, I was not primary tasked with that.  We were overloaded already with the monitoring of foreign MK activities and related structures.

MR VALLY: Did the Soweto Security Branch conduct joint operations with the members of Vlakplaas?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Please repeat the question.

MR VALLY: Did the Soweto Security Branch conduct joint operations with the members of Vlakplaas?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Yes, via Head Office.

MR VALLY: Did this joint operations take place both within Soweto and outside Soweto?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Outside.

MR VALLY: Both within Soweto and outside Soweto?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Outside of Soweto.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of a joint operation between Vlakplaas and the Soweto Security Branch wherein an assault took place on an askari at a police farm near Marble Hall?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of a farm near Marble Hall that was used by the Security Branch?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of Vlakplaas operating within Soweto jointly with the Security Branch wherein people were assaulted and tortured?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any MK guerillas who you may have infiltrated who had come via Soweto who had been put into safe houses by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?