Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

JUDGE WILSON: Was that a note formally released to the 
Press by the Department of Foreign Affairs?

BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you don't know where they got their 
information from?

BRIG CRONJE: No, Chairman, I accept that it would have been 
from Gen Van der Merwe.

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier, I don't know whether you have the 
memo in front of you, the affidavit. I would like you to 
have one in front of you.  The first or rather the second 
paragraph Mr Botha is talking about reports he saw in the 
Press now.  He also says that according to the reports in 
the Press, he now sees in the Press, he says Mr Cronje, that 
"an allegation was made that a certain MacKenzie was a 
member of the ANC, was an ANC member and that he had blown 
up his own vehicle. ".

BRIG CRONJE: That is what was in the paper,  in today's 
newspaper.

ADV DE JAGER: I am talking about the first article in the 
first paper right after the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: I can't understand this memo.  The way I read 
it according to Press reports today, Mr Cronje alleged.

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, then I agree with you.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was the recent Press reports after you 
have given evidence.

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: You must please help me now because I do not 
remember, I do not recall you saying that MacKenzie had been 
an ANC member who blew up his own vehicle.

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, I never said that. I said that MacKenzie 
had been an informant and that his vehicle had been blown up 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DE JAGER: 167

BRIG CRONJE: by somebody else.

ADV DE JAGER: Therefore this quotation Mr Botha here 
quotes, was read somewhere in a paper that gave the facts of 
your evidence wrongly. And in the second paragraph, he 
discusses what he then did.  And there he nowhere says that 
anybody told him that MacKenzie had blown up his own 
vehicle.

BRIG CRONJE: That's right.

ADV DE JAGER: He only says there that MacKenzie had been an 
ANC agent who brought weapons to South Africa.   Was that 
not in accordance what you informed them at that stage, that 
MacKenzie had transported weapons in the vehicle?

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, that was what happened and what was in 
the papers at that stage.

ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle had been registered in 
MacKenzie's name.

BRIG CRONJE: I said that the number plates of the vehicle 
were registered in MacKenzie's name.

ADV DE JAGER: But it was not said in this report that 
MacKenzie had died in the incident or that he blew up his 
own vehicle.

BRIG CRONJE: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he one of the masterminds of the 1983 
Church Street bomb blast?

BRIG CRONJE: Mnisi was, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to 
the brigadier?

UNKNOWN: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Du Plessis, before I excuse him, are there 
any other questions you would like to put to him?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I just want to clear up one 
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UNKNOWN: 168

BRIG CRONJE: thing if you would give me one second, please.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, I just want to hear, was Mr Botha 
advised that he has been implicated in this application?

UNKNOWN: Not yet, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, he's been implicated in the application 
itself, he wasn't implicated during the evidence.

UNKNOWN: He was implicated during the evidence, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: No, on page 156 of the application he has 
been implicated.

UNKNOWN: Of the applicant's ...

ADV DE JAGER: Of the applicant's application.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Or 159, I don't know, I haven't got the ...

UNKNOWN: 160, no, no, I wasn't aware of it, he was not 
involved.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  Mr Du Plessis?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  
Brigadier, these Press reports of Mr Botha where he makes 
these allegations, did you see these Press articles 
personally?

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, I did.

HASSAN MALL: Is that all?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure that 
the witness understood me.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier, the Press releases I am talking 
about, I am talking about this week's Press items.

BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

W CAPE: 169

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much, Brigadier.

BRIG CRONJE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: This memorandum will be numbered as an EXHIBIT 
EE.

HASSAN MALL: Yes?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, then that concludes our work for 
the day.   What remains are the matters that are of non-
gross violations which as agreed upon earlier on, will be 
dealt with in chambers.   Mr Chairman, I am informed by my 
learned friend about the psychiatrist's report, that it will 
be available tomorrow, which would mean that the Committee 
adjourns and indicate a time when we are to resume for the 
purposes of that report.

HASSAN MALL: What is the earliest that the report will be 
available, Mr Du Plessis?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, we are going directly to 
Stellenbosch to see Prof Robertse. I could have it available 
tonight. I want to try and make arrangements to fax it to Mr 
Currin and it would be available early tomorrow morning.  We 
can deal with it at eight o'clock or earlier.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, if I turn up here at six 
o'clock tomorrow and you haven't got that report here and 
you ask for the matter to stand down ...

UNKNOWN: I won't Mr Chair.

HASSAN MALL: Very well, Gentlemen, the Committee will 
adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, in the hope 
that we will finalise this as soon as possible thereafter.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I will give you my undertaking 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

W CAPE: 170
that tomorrow morning we will finalise it.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, Gentlemen?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we 
have had an opportunity yesterday afternoon to visit Prof 
Robertse in Stellenbosch.  He did have another consultation 
with Capt Hechter and we were able to sort out any problems 
- all the problems regarding the report.  It is possible for 
me to hand in a report in respect of each of the five 
applicants.  
	The report is accompanied by Prof Robertse's curriculum 
vitae, as well as a letter in which he explains the fact 
that he had to consult again with Capt Hechter, and that he 
could not do that in Cape Town yesterday.  I requested him 
yesterday afternoon when we adjourned, if he could come to 
Cape Town so that we could finalise it here and it might 
have been possible to deal with this perhaps late yesterday 
afternoon, but it wasn't possible.	I beg leave to hand up 
copies of the report to you.  
	Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with the contents 
of the report at this point in time.  I believe that would 
be ANNEXURE FF, if my memory serves me correct.
	Mr Chairman, the report is an extensive report. If I 
can just give you a little bit of background about the 
report. It is an extensive report, dealing with firstly, 
post-traumatic stress, with specific emphasis on memory 
loss, but not only that, as a general background. Then it 
gives an evaluation of each of the applicants.  It discusses 
the problems that they currently have, as a result of the 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 171

<UNKNOWN>: actions they were involved in, and it specifically then also 
deals with the question of memory loss.  It does not only 
deal with that question.  It deals with a further variety of 
issues which we deem important for purposes of argument in 
this regard.  Specifically with reference to the general 
background in respect of which the applicants operated.  I 
will refer to the report in my argument, unless you want me 
to address you on something specific out of the report.

HASSAN MALL: I understood yesterday that you were going to 
find out from Mr Currin whether he has any views on this 
matter.  Has that been done?