Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR SEMENYA: Am I correct that you cannot vouch for the factual correctness of the information related to you by the mother?

MS D CHILI: Well she was the mother, she hinted to me that the son is no more sleeping at home because he has joined the Football Club, that is the reason why I referred him to Mrs Winnie Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: Put simply you just trusted her word, you can't vouch that it was correct, am I right?

MS D CHILI: She came back with the response after she said she went to Mrs Mandela's place.

MR SEMENYA: We will talk about the response later, let me just try and address each area with you in turn.  It is only because you trusted her word that you gave the advice but you did not know that her communication to you was factually correct, is that right?

MS D CHILI: I didn't know if it was correct but I accepted it because I referred her to Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: And in fact it cannot assist me to try and exchange with you the incorrectness of that information because you have no first-hand knowledge of that information, am I right?

MS D CHILI: I think the mother wouldn't be a liar to come back and say I have been to Mrs Winnie Mandela's house and this is what she says.  She did not deny that her child did not sleep there, but she just said if you are not feeding your children I am feeding them.  She did not deny, according to the mother.

MR SEMENYA: Ma'am you don't help me if I tell you that Mrs Mandela denies that and you would say she is lying?

MS D CHILI: I beg your pardon?

MR SEMENYA: If I put it to you that Mrs Mandela denies the lady coming to her your response would be what?

MS D CHILI: My response will be that she came back and told me that response and then I believed her then.

MR SEMENYA: You don't believe Mrs Mandela if she asserted that the lady didn't come.

MR UNTERHALTER: With respect Mr Chairman might I intervene.  It's not for my learned friend Mr Semenya to ask whether this witness believes that Mrs Mandela is lying.  This witness can only say what she knew and was told.  It's not a proper question to put.

DR BORAINE: I think that is fair, would it not be helpful, and I really don't want to interfere with your cross-examination, but I think the point you are making is that the witness did not see the particular person sleeping there.  Perhaps if you just put that and she could say yes you are right I didn't see it, I only accepted somebody else's word, otherwise it may take us a very long time.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson I take the advice but it is the witness who is being invited to say she believed the other person X,Y,Z.  Now I don't know what is the basis of her belief in one instance and non belief in the other, but I won't pursue the point.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Again you say that there was a decision that your boy must be killed, you were not there when this decision was taken, is that right?

MS D CHILI: Yes I wasn't there.

MR SEMENYA: You cannot speak for the correctness of that information or can you?

MS D CHILI: What made me believe that is because the following morning we saw figures surrounding my house, it confirmed that statement.

MR SEMENYA: Now it's only based on your belief, right?  I see you nod your head, do you mean yes?

MS D CHILI: I beg your pardon?

MR SEMENYA: I see you are nodding your head, did you mean yes by that?

MS D CHILI: I believed it because the following morning it was confirmed by the people surrounding my house, that's why I believed it.  I may not have believed it if it did not happen that way.

MR SEMENYA: Even when you tell us about the event where you say Madondo was caught and finally killed, this is not information that you personally saw, is that right?

MS D CHILI: I was there around the house when this thing happened.  I did not witness the killing because I ran into the house because I was scared, because I did not know who was going to fall, whether my son or the assailant.

MR SEMENYA: Yes but you didn't witness it, right?

MS D CHILI: I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: In fact coming to the time when your house was burnt I understand you were not at home, is that right?

MS D CHILI: No I was not at home.

MR SEMENYA: Can I read to you what appears here to be an answer by Mrs Qoliswa Falati as an explanation for why your house was burnt.  Chairperson I have a, it must be a radio interview transcript. I am unable to direct actual attention about the page and number but it appears and reads as follows
"03.19.39.09.  It was Chili's home which was burned. It was burned because Chili was working with Mrs Albertina Sisulu to help the boys run away from Winnie's home".
What is your - this is an explanation that is offered by Falati why your house was burned, what is your reaction Ma'am?

MS D CHILI: It could be one of the reasons because I did help some of the boys who had gone to Mrs Sisulu's house to get safe places.  It could be one of the reasons.

MR SEMENYA: Can I ask Miss Chili, Barbara.  I take it Ma'am you did not identify any of the assailants the day the house was burnt?

MS B CHILI: Please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: You did not have an opportunity to identify the assailants the day the house was burned?

MS B CHILI: No it was at night I did not see them.

MR SEMENYA: Can I then put the question to Sibusiso.  I heard you say that after Maxwell was killed you saw a red car out of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stood outside with two bodyguards.

MR S CHILI: Yes I saw a red car.

MR SEMENYA: Out of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stood outside with two bodyguards.

MR S CHILI: Yes I saw a red car.

MR SEMENYA: Out of which came Mrs Madikizela-Mandela with two bodyguards.

MR S CHILI: Yes that's correct.

MR SEMENYA: Can I put it to you Sir that your information cannot be correct, at this time, at this time the Audi was long involved in an accident and the family was using a kombi, a microbus.

MR S CHILI: I am telling you that I saw a red car, whether there was an accident before that's none of my business but I saw a red car.

MR SEMENYA: ....advantage of your knowledge of the facts.  Is it correct that the family was using a kombi, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's family?

MR S CHILI: When?

MR SEMENYA: Around the times when Mr Madondo was ...(intervention)

MR S CHILI: It was a red car.

MR SEMENYA: I am not having a quibble with you whether the car was red or not Sir, I am asking you a simple question, is it correct that around the time when Mr Madondo is killed Mrs Mandela's family was using a microbus?

MR S CHILI: No that's a blatant lie.

MR SEMENYA: We are told that Mr Kades, in a Supreme Court gave information that the activities were, the activities of the Football Club were on the instruction of Mrs Mandela, do you know who gave this instructions to Mr Kades?

MR S CHILI: Who is Kades?

MR SEMENYA: It's the gentleman on the other side of the table.

MR S CHILI: Please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: Would you know who would have given Mr Kades the instructions that the members of the Football team were instructed by Mrs Mandela?

MR S CHILI: That's what I will say.

MR SEMENYA: Let me repeat the question.  Do you know who would have given him that instruction?

MR S CHILI: I hear that it's Winnie.

MR SEMENYA: The last time, are you able to tell us who would have given that instruction to Mr Kades?

MR S CHILI: Which instructions are you referring to?

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Before I ask the legal representatives to reply or rather to put their questions, I just want to point out the time and the heat of the day and if you could confine yourselves to five minutes I'd be most grateful.  Please try.

MR KADES: Will I be permitted to make a statement Mr Chairman.

DR BORAINE: Of course go ahead.