Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: It will be a good thing if people sit down.  Will you please sit down, thank you.  Order please.  There are people who don't know the meaning of sit down.  Thank you.
 A set of keys were left in the you know where and this as well, it is an information booklet, application for something or other.  I am aiming for us to try and finish by say five o'clock.  We are under particular constraints because Dr Boraine and I have to be in Cape Town tomorrow for another hearing, a State Security Council hearing tomorrow.   Unfortunately you have to fly to get to Cape Town and we are booked on flights.  I need to say yes, I say five minutes is probably unfair to you ladies and gentlemen.  Let us look at between 10 and 15.  Again even that, let me say to you, I will be flexible.
 And I am going to let Mr Joseph just run for a while and if on this side, you will help us by trying to give as direct, concise answers that you can and I know you can, and if on that side you also try to have precise questions and let's get to the point.
 I don't want to stop as might appear to be the case, I don't want to stop what people might consider to be hard questions.  And I also don't want to stop you from being, well I was going to say rumbustious, but no, no, no.  That may be some times although the feelings, feelings are important too.
 But I think that for the dignity of the hearing, it is when you are also restraint.  Thank you.  Mr Joseph, let us have a short (inaudible) now.

WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (still under oath)

MR JOSEPH: (continued)   Mrs Mandela, let us go back to the quotation which involves the boxes of matches.  I am going to put to you that for the ordinary reader of what you said, you intended to say the following.
 That you, together with the people you were addressing, intended to liberate the country by using this method of eliminating people and the people you intended to eliminate were those people who one can describe as informers and collaborators, would that be correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is completely wrong.

MR JOSEPH: What did you intend by this statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not want us to go back to the previous discussions.  I think I explained myself.  That was a description of the times of the day.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Chairman, I look to you for assistance.  I asked the witness to repeat the answer, she says she has given an answer, I don't have any record of that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: I could say have another shot, but that is her answer.  I think we as the panel are going to have to make our own judgement on the validity or otherwise of the answer.

MR JOSEPH: That is not my point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR JOSEPH: My point is that I do not recall an answer being given by the witness about what she intended when she made use of this expression.  It is a simple question, a simple answer.  What did you intend when you addressed the people and you uttered these words.
 What did you intend to convey to the people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I simply made a statement describing the times.

MR JOSEPH: Describing the times?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Under which we lived, the conditions of those times.

MR JOSEPH: The times under which you lived, informers and collaborators were being killed by a necklace method, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know of hundreds of informers  being killed in that fashion.

MR JOSEPH: I never said hundreds of informers.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know of any informers that were killed in that fashion.

MR JOSEPH: So then what were you describing?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was describing what was alleged to be happening.  I have no personal knowledge of any.

MR JOSEPH: You were describing what was alleged to be taking place?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, what was being alleged at the time.

MR JOSEPH: You were informing the people in the community that this is what is taking place, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To my recollection, a previous sentence to that is that we do not have arms.  I cannot recollect the precise wording.  We did not have arms and that people have had to resort to things like that.
 I was not making a statement to encourage people to necklace.

MR JOSEPH: You weren't?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.

MR JOSEPH: Together, hand in hand, with our boxes.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect, I think there have been answers to this thing.  And I still question the relevance of that utterance in relation to the issues that are before this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I might agree with you in hard, I do not agree entirely on the question of relevance, because I gather that some people have in their amnesty applications used this utterance as justifying what they did.
 That is neither here nor there, well, no actually it is in that they committed gross violations of human rights and some of them were apprehended and are applying or are in the process of applying for amnesty and whether that is the case or not, the point is the same, some of those people have used this utterance as what gave them as it were, they were under the impression that they were carrying out an exhortation.
 But I don't know whether we are able to get further with the witness.  I think you have put the question.  All right.

MR JOSEPH: Whatever you might say, the language that I have read to you, would be understood by the ordinary reader to mean that you are exhorting them to make use of a necklace to liberate the country.
 Then you say something else, that is an objective fact.  You were an MK soldier, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not a trained MK soldier.  I have been referred to as an operative because of the assistance I gave to cadres.

MR JOSEPH: You described yourself as being an MK soldier.  I beg your pardon, you were a member of Umkonto weSizwe, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR JOSEPH: You were a member of Umkonto weSizwe?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, of course I am.

MR JOSEPH: Is that not the military wing of the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is the military wing of the ANC.

MR JOSEPH: So you are a member of the military wing of the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I am.

MR JOSEPH: You are a soldier?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was, yes.

MR JOSEPH: Correct.  The African National Congress have made a decision to overthrow the white racist regime by means of an armed struggle and they went to war, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is common knowledge, yes.

MR JOSEPH: And you had an enemy that you had identified, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Are you now discussing the policies of the African National Congress?  Is that where we are?

MR JOSEPH: No, I am asking you whether an enemy had been identified.  I think the answer is obvious.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think you should direct that question to the organisation in its entirety.  The African National Congress did identify its enemy.

MR JOSEPH: And who was that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The government of the day Mr Joseph.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR JOSEPH: Madam, if you just take me into your confidence.  These questions are straight forward, easy to answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have answered you, I have said the government of the day was identified by the African National Congress as its enemy.

MR JOSEPH: And in particular the security services employed by the government of the day, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was part of the government.

MR JOSEPH: The Security Forces employed by the government of the day in order to defend itself, in order to overcome the attack that was being made by the ANC, made use of many, many means didn't they?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course the government of the day was fought with every possible means necessary.