Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before Mr Sibaya is called, may I also place on record copies of the final report of Mr Justice Richard Goldstone - was circulated, could that be marked exhibit ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: J.

MR PRIOR: J, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I don't think it's necessary for me to refer to any portion of that report.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: I call Mr Sibaya.
	Mr Chairman, there has been a request - I've discussed the matter with Mr Donan my learned friend, he's made a request that he be permitted to lead Mr Sibaya.

MR DONAN: Mr Chairperson, may I place myself of record? - Michael Donan, I now appear for Mr Sibaya.

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibaya, please stand up.

BENNET SIBAYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Do sit down.
	Yes, Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Sibaya, do you have any personal knowledge of the attack on the Heidelberg Tavern, either by the three gentlemen - the three applicants before this Committee, or by anybody else?

BENNET SIBAYA: No.

MR DONAN: You have made two statements - two affidavits, which you have signed and you have appeared before this Committee for the duration of two days - so I'm informed, and suggested that you have personal knowledge.  I want to briefly deal with those three ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: He didn't say Mr Donan, - as I recollect, that he had personal knowledge of the attack, he gave evidence before us certainly, of having seen two vehicles and firearms being carried.

MR DONAN: Perhaps I put it before the Committee wrongly, but there was a suggestion that he had personal knowledge of acts which were associated with the attack and I was intending to say precisely what Judge Wilson has said and deal with each of those statements which were made.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR DONAN: If I may.
	On the 5th of January 1994, you signed a statement before Mr Etsebeth in which you said that you had been in Guguletu on the night of the 30th of December 1993 and seen weapons being transferred to a white Audi XA12848, is that correct - you made that statement?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Segal and Mr Mazibuku came with such information to me, I have never seen such photograph of Mr Ntsebeza and the registration number thereof was brought by Mr Segal to me about something that I don't know about.

MR DONAN: Sorry, all I would like - if you could this information, that statement which you made to Mr Etsebeth - sorry, you didn't make a statement, the statement which you signed which was presented to you, was that statement false?  You didn't have personal knowledge of what was in that statement?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Mr Segal and what was the other name?

BENNET SIBAYA: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Donan, I have difficulty in that name, do you know what it is?

MR DONAN: Mr Fulani.

CHAIRPERSON: Fulani?

MR DONAN: Fulani.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MR DONAN: And Mr Segal and Mr Etsebeth - perhaps I should clear this up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, could you?

MR DONAN: Mr Sibaya, all I want to know from you is, whether the statement which you signed before Mr Etsebeth was true or whether it was false?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was not true because I got there, the statement was ready and I just had to sign something I knew nothing about because they tortured us before we signed.

MR DONAN: Now, you made a subsequent statement to Mr Lubbe ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR DONAN: You made a subsequent statement to Mr Lubbe - a policeman or a police investigator acting for the Truth Commission, on the 12th of August 1997, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That's correct Sir.

MR DONAN: And in that statement,  you repeated what you had previously signed before Mr Etsebeth and you added two little bits of information - (1) that you had seen a map to the Heidelberg Tavern fall out of the Audi and you had heard one of the people carrying the weapons say that
"Someone had forgotten their cap in the first vehicle from which the weapons were transported"
Is that correct, you made such a statement to Mr Lubbe?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is correct.

MR DONAN: And was that statement true or was it false?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was not true because Mr Segal wanted to involve or taint Mr Ntsebeza's name so that in court it comes out that he was involved.

MR DONAN: But the fact is, you have no personal knowledge of whether or not Mr Ntsebeza was involved in the attack on the Heidelberg Tavern, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: I have no knowledge, it is Mr Segal who told me that Mr Ntsebeza was involved, I know nothing about it.

JUDGE WILSON: You were being asked - as I understood it, about the statement you may de to Mr Lubbe.
	That was so, wasn't it Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: That is so Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: You have not answered your counsel's question which was: "Why you made - in the statement to Mr Lubbe, why you said that a map fell out of the car and that somebody commented about his cap.

MR DONAN: With respect, the question was not: "Why it was said" but whether the witness had any personal knowledge and whether the statement was true or false.

JUDGE WILSON: It was that statement - that was after the trial was over and I think it was after Segal was dead, wasn't it?  Was that not so Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: That was so Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: Perhaps your client would like to answer your question now or explain what he meant by what he's just said.

MR DONAN: When you made the statement to Mr Lubbe, was it true or was it false?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was not true because truly speaking, I know nothing about this.

MR DONAN: Why did you make the statement to Mr Lubbe if it was false?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Lubbe came to me saying he's a policeman from the Truth Commission, he brought photographs of Mr Ntsebeza and a registration number.  I thought that he worked together with Mr Segal, I thought that I could not reveal the truth to him because he brought things the same way as Mr Segal - a photograph and a registration number and I did not trust him because he was also a policeman with the same photograph.

MR DONAN: You testified also for a number of days before this Committee, in which you - and on one of those occasions you pointed out Mr Ntsebeza and you also repeated what you had said in your affidavits, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is correct.

MR DONAN: But you falsely pointed him out and you had no personal knowledge of the attack - of the information which you gave the court - I beg your pardon, the Committee, the information was in fact false, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is correct.

MR DONAN: Why did you give false information to the Committee?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Segal had said that he would destroy my home, he would burn down my house - he had a huge rifle.  He said I must not change my story - Mr Mazibuku was already dead and everything depended on me.

MR DONAN: Just for the record, you say that you were arrested by Mr Segal and you were assaulted by Mr Segal and Fulani and Mr Mazibuku was the person who was arrested and assaulted with you, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is correct.

MR DONAN: And shortly after that, did he co-operate with Mr Segal in assisting him make statements and finding Mr Ntsebeza?  Did Mr Mazibuku help Mr Segal like you did?

BENNET SIBAYA: He refused - they would stand by the OK's and ask me to call him from the taxi rank and he would refuse.  I'd get there and say that Mr Mazibuku was not there - I would tell him to run away.

MR DONAN: What did Mr Segal say to you when Mr Mazibuku refused to co-operate?