Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: We will call our next witness to the stand, and that is Colonel Cornelius Adolf Janse Odendal.

MR NTSEBEZA: Please can we please have quiet.  Can we please have some silence.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to welcome the choir.  The choir is going to sing at the end of the proceedings today.  It is called the Dalingebo(?) Adult Choir, thank you and we welcome you.
 Mr Odendal we will ask Mrs Mary Burton to swear you in.  Before we do actually could you place yourself on record Mr Louw.

ADV LOUW: My surname is Louw, I am an advocate and I appear on behalf of Colonel Odendal ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Please Ladies and Gentlemen could we give Mr Louw a chance.  Thank you.  Advocate Louw.

ADV LOUW: I appear on behalf of Mr Odendal duly instructed thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will ask Mrs Burton to swear you in and Mr Ntsebeza is going to lead your questioning.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson, thank you Mr Odendal.  Good afternoon.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: (sworn states)

MR NTSEBEZA: May I please make a comment. I would like to talk to you. This thing was nice all along, we've started this well. This is the last day.  This is our last witness.  We will be very disappointed if this thing can be a failure at the last moment.  We will be the causes of the failure.  People have come to give their witnessing.  The Commission made an oath that they will respect them at all costs.  Each and every witness has the right not to be afraid or not to be scared to give her witnessing comfortably.
 What I would like to say is that it is disturbing when we are proceeding with our meeting when people do not give respect at all times.  We do understand that there are people who still have that motion of what happened during those years, but we still do have a big job to do as a Commission to see that this is done in a very decent way.
 I do plead with you, please try and give us a chance to do this work and work with the witnesses properly.  Please you usually listen to me when I ask you.  I will be very disappointed if you don't obey with what I am trying to ask from you. Thank you very much.
 Dolf good afternoon!

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Good afternoon Mr Commissioner.

MR NTSEBEZA: In the course of these deliberations your name kept on coming and I could see you were working very hard at your notes there, I don't know whether there is a statement that you are going to be reading into the record or whether you are saying, here am I, let's get on with the business!

ADV LOUW: Colonel Odendal has not prepared any prior statement for submission to you.  He is ready to answer such questions as you may be advised to put to him.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am indebted to you Advocate Louw.  I wish you had prepared a statement and then I would have had a basis to question him - (laughter).  But maybe let me start from where I usually start.  At the time that - are you still a serving member of the South African Services as they are called nowadays?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No Mr Commissioner.  For three years I have been retired.

MR NTSEBEZA: And at what rank did you retire?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: I retired as a Colonel.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would that be a full Colonel?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That's correct a full colonel.

MR NTSEBEZA: It is now common cause but I would like you to confirm it, it is common cause that in the area that we are examining, in the period that we are examining you were in the Western Cape?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: And in 1985, 1986 what was your position in the South African Police?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: In '85, '86 I was a Major.  '85 I was a Major in the South African Police and second in charge of the Riot Squad.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you know we have been talking, I am sure you have been listening, but you know we have been talking about structures, sub Joint Committee what have you, at what level did you operate in terms of those structures?  You will remember that for instance the previous witness said he was in the S-JMC in the Western Province, I am trying to place you in that order of things.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: I was on the JOC and we were situated in Manenberg.  Sometimes when the commanding officer was not there the S-JMC I also attended.  But that did not happen often.

MR NTSEBEZA: In other words you were, would you say you were in a Mini-JMC, structurally, were you placed in a Mini-JMC in Athlone?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Chairperson I was part of the JOC and they operated the Riot Unit in Manenberg.  You can see, referring to Odendal I was actually a Joint Operations Centre man.

MR NTSEBEZA: Oh the Joint Operations Centre, you mean in this document.  Alright.  So you were in the Joint Operations Centre that operated from Manenberg?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Right.  And who was your immediate commander, in other words who did you report to in the Western Cape?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: My immediate head was in 1985 till the end of 1985 Colonel van Rensburg and in 1986 Colonel Visser.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  And what relationship did you have with General Wandrag?  In other words I am trying to see the chain of command from you, where you were to General Wandrag who we understand was now the overall national commander of the Riot Unit.  In other words what was the ...(intervention)

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: He was the national commander of the Riot Squad, that is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: How did you communicate with General Wandrag for instance, was there a structure through which you communicated?  Was there direct communication between you and General Wandrag?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No I never communicated with him.  I would like to explain Mr Commissioner.  We went out in the field every day, we did our jobs.  Every platoon had a person there who could keep records, he wrote it down, it was communicated to the operational centre in Manenberg and from Manenberg it was conveyed to the operational centre where Colonel Vermeulen received that and they took that further.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  And in other words, as you have just indicated, there wasn't a direct link, a communication between you and General Wandrag?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, definitely no.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you have any relationships with Brigadier Strydom who was in the Western Cape as well?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: He was the Head of the Security Police in the Western Cape.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was he also part of GOS in Manenberg?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, he was not part of JOC.

MR NTSEBEZA: There never were any joint operations between the Riot Unit and his unit?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No sometimes there were joint operations where we cordoned off certain areas and searched areas like KTC, Old Crossroads, satellite establishments where people from Security Police did cooperate with us sometimes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now Brigadier Swart where did he feature in all of this?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: He was the Divisional Commissioner of the whole Western Cape.  He was head of the Police in the Western Cape.

MR NTSEBEZA: And the Commissioner of Police at the time was of course General Coetzee?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes it could have been General Coetzee.

MR NTSEBEZA: And there was never an occasion where you personally had contact with General Coetzee either by way of a visit to find out what the unrest situation is and how you were coping?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, no never.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now what kind of orders or communications would you generally receive from the South African Police regarding instructions for handling unrest situations in general?