Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson the next witness I intend calling is Jack Mbele, application no 6119/97.  I'm not gonna be too long with this witness, we ran a bit late ...(inaudible).
	... (inaudible) witness to be in the witness box if he's not going to be finished with during the session.

CHAIRPERSON: Well unfortunately I don't think it's possible at this stage to give any undertaking in regard to how long the cross-examination is going to be.  So as to give you guarantee we will be finished with this witness by the - you know, by the time we adjourn tomorrow.

MR BERGER: Chairperson what - from our side ...
...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you want to ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Chairperson all I wanted to say was from our side we will try our utmost to finish with Mr Mbele by tomorrow, and it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We will not hold you onto your    undertaking.  Yes Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson if there's a possibility that the witness cannot finish I would submit with respect, that would be unfair to bring this witness back whilst under cross-examination, only in January.  I would suggest, and that's only a suggestion, obviously the final decision is in your hands Mr Chairman, but that I lead the witness in chief and maybe then to end the proceedings at that stage.  That's just a suggestion I want to make.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) as it is practically possible.  You've got to understand Mr Strydom, there's still a number of applicants that we've got to go through, so we will have to utilise every possible time that we have at our disposal.  You know, you have the willingness on the part of counsel of the other side that every endeavour will be made to finish.  Let's proceed, and shall we see how far we go.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I'm calling Jack Mbele then to testify, if he can just be sworn in.

JACK MBELE: (duly sworn in, states)

MR STRYDOM: Mr Mbele in front of you on page 119 of the bundle you'll find your amnesty application.  Op page 121 you'll see a signature, is that your signature?

JACK MBELE: Yes that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: And do you confirm that you signed that application on the 26th of January 1989 at Koppies Police Station?

JACK MBELE: I agree.

MR BERGER: Just for the record it's 1998.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, thank you.  And do you confirm the contents of the application?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: According to the application you were born in Sharpeville, is that correct?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you move to the kwaMadala Hostel at a certain stage?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When was that?

JACK MBELE: In October of 1991.

MR STRYDOM: During 1992 were you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party or not?

JACK MBELE: I was.

MR STRYDOM: Did you become a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party after you moved into the hostel, or before that?

JACK MBELE: After I moved in.

MR STRYDOM: On page 122 and 123 of the documents before you certain answers are provided to certain questions contained in the amnesty application.  Do you confirm the correctness of the answers given?

JACK MBELE: Yes I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: On page 124 you will find a request for further particulars, particulars asked by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and you'll find the answers on page 126 to page 128.  Do you confirm the correctness of the answers?

JACK MBELE: Yes I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: Have the answers been canvassed with you again and do you still stand by the correctness thereof?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst we at page 128 you make mention of a person with the name of Makuka, who is this Makuka?

JACK MBELE: It's a friend of mine.

MR STRYDOM: Did he also stay in the kwaMadala Hostel?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Was he also part of the attack on Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You stated in answer to the question no 6, your reply on page 128
"I remember seeing a person with the name of Makuka shoot a lady with a 9mm pistol.  I saw that she was hit and fell to the ground."
Do you know approximately where in Boipatong did this incident take place?

JACK MBELE: I think it was in the settlement area in Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit on page 129 and 130 you state that you partook in the attack, did you also go to Slovo Park or the informal settlement section of Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: We formed ourselves in a small group, I think 9 in number and we went into Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Now before I can ask you about details about what happened at Slovo Park, I just want you to confirm you signature on page 130 of your affidavit.

JACK MBELE: That's my signature Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Has this affidavit been canvassed with you again?

JACK MBELE: Yes it was canvassed again.

MR STRYDOM: You pointed out one mistake, I just want to refer you to that.  On top of page 130 it is stated:  "Ongeveer 'n week voor die 17de Junie 1992 was ek by 'n vergadering waar Mkhize gese het dat 'n aanval op Boipatong 'n moontlikheid was."
Did Mr Mkhize mention Boipatong at that stage?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: So the reference there to Boipatong, would that be correct or not?

JACK MBELE: It's incorrect the name Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: On that same page just a little bit lower down it reads
"Eers op die 17de Junie 1992 toe ek by die stadion kom het ek gehoor 'n aanval op Boipatong gaan nou plaasvind."
Is that correct?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Before you moved to kwaMadala Hostel, were you shot?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who shot you?

JACK MBELE: I don't want to commit myself, I don't know, but it was the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: I want to ask you more about the attack on Boipatong itself.  When you entered Boipatong, were you in a specific group or not?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You know who was leading this group?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who was that?

JACK MBELE: Damarra.

MR STRYDOM: Now you testified a little bit earlier on that you broke up into a smaller group, I think you mentioned 9 people, do you still remember the names of the people who formed that group?

JACK MBELE: I remember Makuka, Simon, Gose, and other men from the hostel.  I just knew them by seeing them, I didn't know their names.

MR STRYDOM: What weapon did you have with you?

JACK MBELE: 9mm.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you get that weapon from?

JACK MBELE: I got it from Makuka.

MR STRYDOM: Was it a licensed firearm or not?

JACK MBELE: It wasn't a licensed firearm.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use that firearm in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if you killed any person by using that firearm in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I would not say that there is a person that I killed, but I shot at people.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you break windows of any houses in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can you just slow down a little bit Mr Strydom, I'm just struggling to keep up with you.

MS SIGODI: Sorry Mr Strydom I didn't get it, the last answer, did he say did he break any windows?

MR STRYDOM: His answer was no, I'll just repeat the question.
	Did you break windows of - personally you, did you personally break windows of any houses at Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you steal any items from people in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: More or less where in Boipatong were you when you fired those shots on people you didn't know if you hit?

JACK MBELE: I was in the informal settlement and in the firms.

MR STRYDOM: If you say in the firms, what do you mean by that?

JACK MBELE: I'm referring to in the vicinity of the firms next to the location.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the shots you fired, did you hear other people firing shots?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see that other people fired shots?

JACK MBELE: They shot but I don't know whether they hit someone.