Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: hristianscouldn't attend, but nevertheless it never kept myself and my late wife andmy children from attending the service. We attended, we normally when we reachedthe church, we located ourselves in seating places where we regularly sat inand that evening my wife said to me, darling, could I just move one seat forward.I thought to myself one seat forward? I asked her what is the reason, she saidwell, the teenagers were making a noise in the background. We normally sit rightat the back, about 25 rows from the front, right at the back of the church,that is our normal seating places. During the service, what drew my attention,the way the door on the left hand side was opened. One person entered the church.

<UNKNOWN>: t that time I thought it was a hoax, he lodged a handgrenade and started firing.	I thought at that stage it was fire crackers, they were probably playing youknow, some (indistinct), whatever you call it.

<UNKNOWN>: ut then when I saw the peopleactually taking cover and falling, I said to the crowd and my wife, take cover,this is for real.

<UNKNOWN>: t that time, the first person that actually emptied his rifle,his automatic rifle, walked back to the door when the second party walked inand stood in the centre on the one side, because there are two isles and heemptied his rifle. Then he walked towards the door.

<UNKNOWN>: ut I could see everythingbecause where I was laying, I thought to myself I am protected and I am protectingmy wife because I was laying right on top of her and thinking that if anythingshould happen, the shot will actually take flight and it will never reach usbecause we are on a higher plane, but the second party walked back to the isleafter he had emptied his rifle and he lodged a handgrenade right up the islewhich actually landed about a metre and a half away from me.

<UNKNOWN>: nd that handgrenadeactually caused my wife's death and many others that were in that vicinity atthe time, the second handgrenade. To me it was canny to think that here I protectedher with my body, nothing was wrong, I never had a scratch on me, but here mywife had the shrapnel that actually went right through her, right through herheart and she only lived for about 10 minutes of that and she was gone.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE There were, I understand about 1 300 people in the church thatnight?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: That is right.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What were the agegroups represented there?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: We have various age groups, we havefrom minors going right up to if you are fit enough to attend the church, thechurch will be open to you.

<UNKNOWN>: ould you describe the scenein the church after the attack, what took place after the attack?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: It was a miracle I will say, because the Lord's hand was over each individualthat suffered that evening and I feel that although he allowed it to happen,the outcome of things that we only see today, we don't know why, but we knowthat the outcome of things was for a reason.

<UNKNOWN>: nd I felt that my wife died inthe presence of serving him. I have no animosity, the way that she died, butthe way she was killed, I disagree that a person can go out to take someoneelse's live in that manner. I feel that we believe in prayer, and through prayerwe were actually set free from this whole situation that this country was in.Violence had maybe on the brink at time, had taken place but it wasn't throughviolence, it was through prayer and if you go back into the

<UNKNOWN>: ible itself, itstates there that people were suffering in bondage and they were set free atthe time, but through prayer. For 40 years they had prayed, people had suffered,

<UNKNOWN>: hristians had suffered, but at a given time, the Lord set them free.

<UNKNOWN>: nd thisis what I felt too that at the given time, we will be set free. If you lookat the country's situation and economics, you could actually see we were goingto a slump. We were being boycotted by other countries and violence wouldn'tadd any help to the situation that we were in.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr Smithis it so that you were, yourself, discriminated against under the system ofapartheid?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: That is true. I was brought up in District Six, Ican identify with the struggle of the

<UNKNOWN>: lacks. My late father was White, he hadto actually class himself as a

<UNKNOWN>: oloured, reclassified himself. I never had theprivilege of seeing my grandparents, because at that stage, if you had reclassifiedyourself, there had to be no dealings with either the White or

<UNKNOWN>: oloured. Mydad said to me at one stage, when he was alive, he said you know, the heartachethat this country has come across, has affected many a person and until yousee reason that you can forgive that things do come to a change, that is beforehe died, he accepted

<UNKNOWN>: hrist within his life too and I was so grateful for that,because this was part that I could see the outcome of things, what happenedthrough the St James massacre.

<UNKNOWN>: ut nevertheless we stayed in District Six, wehad to evacuate District Six because of the Group

<UNKNOWN>: reas

<UNKNOWN>: ct, we had to go toother areas. It was good and it was bad, because I feel that people stayingin that area was pushed further back where they couldn't attend jobs, etc, becauseof transport, but to have the option of buying their own homes, so in a wayit was good and in a way it was bad. So I could relate to the way the

<UNKNOWN>: lackswere feeling and certain places that you weren't allowed to go would be, itwas either White or

<UNKNOWN>: oloured. I've been overseas, travelled overseas as a Seamanat many places and what is worse to go to a country where it is not practisedby the government, but you get social discrimination which is worse when inthe country you stay, you knew where you were on and off.

<UNKNOWN>: nd I knew at a giventime, things will change.

<UNKNOWN>: s it was introduced in this country, 40 years prior,it would change at a given time.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you as a victim ofapartheid, not consider that there was any justification in the means used inthis attack to achieve the ends which allegedly was sought to be achieved byit?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I do.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you feel there was some justificationin the attack?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: There was justification which I feel to theirpart, they felt there was justification, but I feel that what they had lookedat, the target that they had chosen, was not the right target to choose, tobring their motive to the media.

<UNKNOWN>: re you satisfied fromyour own experience from these events, that the applicants have made full disclosureof the relevant facts?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Man, what I've heard, we actually haveto take an oath to actually tell the truth as to what had actually happenedat that day.

<UNKNOWN>: ut what I heard of the colleagues sitting in front, right in frontof me at the end, he mentioned that two of them came in at the same time. Irecall sitting right at the back, only one came in, one fired, the other onewas standing at the back. There was someone at the door, I couldn't see him,but the door was ajar, it was open. The one went back again and the gentlemansitting in front of me, he entered in.

<UNKNOWN>: s he said he entered in, but he enteredin, he is the one who opened up fire, walked back to the door, came back tothe isle and lodged the handgrenade, but what I heard what he said that theywent back into the isle, reloaded and then lodged the handgrenade, so whereis the truth of what actually happened? Doesn't he recall what actually happenedat the time?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: From what you observed that night, how manypeople came into the church to attack it?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I saw two people cominginto the church at different intervals and I presume there was a third person,because the door was ajar.