Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR GOOSEN: That much is apparent, that much is apparent. In your initial submission Mr de Klerk you state that responsibility should be attributed to the State Security Council for all decisions which you took and the instructions that it issued including authorised actions and operations executed in terms of the reasonable interpretation of such instructions. 
You further suggest that this principle should also apply to ministers and to individual commanders within the security forces. 
Now we know from some of the documents of the State Security Council, and certainly from statements made by senior cabinet ministers, cabinet members and members of the National Party, that the strongest possible action against revolutionaries was advocated. 
How would a direction from the State Security Council or Cabinet or the Party contained in phrases like "wipe out terrorists" and "using their own methods", be interpreted by the security force operatives to whom it was directed?

MR DE KLERK: The "using their own methods", I have just tried to bring across, I've never perceived it, I've never experienced that to be a policy. You are referring to one clause, I haven't studied the document, I haven't studied the next week's or the next fortnight's document to see whether there was any reference again, I'm not questioning the fact that you say it is in such a document, but I would like to just say in general and then please pose a question so that I can have a proper look at the documents for a follow-up reply to state in general that if that was the policy why would I have appointed the Harms Commission? If that was the policy why would I have appointed the Goldstone Commission? If that was the policy why would I have not protected Mitchell when he committed the murder if that was the policy? Why would a list of security force operators have been charged in court with doing what you say they were authorised to do in terms of a policy as you interpret it?

MR GOOSEN: Thank you. Now certainly I'm going to put one further question around this and then move to another topic and I will come to the Harms Commission in a moment. 
But in the context of an escalating conflict that had been defined by senior members of the security forces as assuming the character of a guerilla war, and in which as a result to use your own words, "the traditional distinctions between legitimate and illegitimate targets and acceptable and unacceptable methods of combatting resistance were increasingly blurred", would a reasonable member of the security forces responsible for combatting the revolutionary onslaught, resistance not interpret these statements to authorise killings and assassinations?

MR DE KLERK: You've just quoted from my submission. They were written in August 1996. It's not a quote, it's not, I didn't enunciate the policy, I tried to comply with the request of the Commission and that is to analyse in an intellectual and intelligent way, what contributed to the conflict of the past. Why did certain things happen. It was a genuine effort to analyse.

MR GOOSEN: I accept it and it's in fact a very valuable analysis. You raise the notion of how particular statements, particular policies and directives may be reasonably interpreted and the question, the essence of the question is, given your own statements, given your own characterisation of the state of the conflict as it was then, and given what we know about the directives and the attitudes that would have been expressed at the level of the State Security Council, at cabinet and by senior party members, how would a reasonable person interpret those directives, those statements? Would a reasonable person, member of the security forces who is enjoined to use the strongest possible methods to combat the revolution, not interpret what was being said to authorise killings and assassinations? And that's the question.

MR DE KLERK: As far as I know, not having been directly involved then, there were at all times general rules and guidelines. And the general rules and guidelines within my total experience of how the country was governed, also in the period when I was an ordinary minister, was that we were not above the law, that was the ethos of our approach and I could be happy in such an atmosphere because that was the philosophical approach which was adopted. 
With regard to the continuing problem of allegations and the definite possibility of crimes being committed by the security forces, when I became President, one once again of the first things was, and you'll find this again on page 30 of my new submission, I then to put it beyond doubt, brought in certain very specific guidelines to clarify if there were then, in any way a misinterpretation of what was wanted of people and what guidelines should be adhered to, and I've set out on page 30 some of these guidelines. They include that no indemnity from criminal prosecution could be granted to anyone. They include proper auditing arrangements. They include that the political head and the officials involved in special projects accept full accountability for such actions with which they were involved. So inasmuch as there was a risk of misinterpretation, I went out of my way to try and clarify it and bring about and institute clearer guidelines in order to avoid just that.

MR GOOSEN: Mr de Klerk I ...(intervention)