Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

WITNESS:   It seems he's been transferred to Sasol.  He's been transferred to Sasolburg.

MRS GCABASHE: Those who were with him on that day ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   Some of them I can be able to remember them is I see their faces.

MRS GCABASHE: This Dr Zwane, is he still there at your location at Theunissen?

WITNESS:   No, he's now at Welkom.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know where he is if we can look for him around Welkom?

WITNESS:   I don't know where his surgery is.

MRS GCABASHE: You said you were the first patient who arrived at the doctor's surgery.  What time was it?  Well, when those Van Rooyen and company were coming, what time was it?

WITNESS:   It was 12 midnight.

MRS GCABASHE: Who are the people who came to the surgery?

WITNESS:  The one whom I used as my witness was Tabo or Chauke.  We just call him Chauke Tswaidi.  His surname is Tswaidi. What happened to him?   ---   He was shot on the shoulder.  He was shot with a pellet on the shoulder.

MRS GCABASHE: Did he go to Pilinomi Hospital?

WITNESS:   No, he didn't go to Pilinomi Hospital.

MRS GCABASHE: What about others?  Do you remember them?  This Tswaidi, where can we find him?

WITNESS:   We can get him at Theunissen.  He's still there.

MRS GCABASHE: What about others?

WITNESS:   One of them is right inside the hall.  Others are in the hall.

MRS GCABASHE: May we ask them to stand.  Are you too?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: We thank you.  These people were with you so they're going to give us their testimony?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: When you went to this hospital, do you have these records?  You did go to Pilinomi Hospital.  Where are your records?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are there.

MRS GCABASHE: Are they at home?  Are they in the hospital?

WITNESS:  They're in the hospital.

MRS GCABASHE: You said you have no more money to go to the hospital, who much were you paying?

WITNESS:   I was paying R20,00.

MRS GCABASHE: Is that for transport and hospital expenses combined?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: At the hospital, how much were you paying?

WITNESS:   I was not paying at the hospital.

MRS GCABASHE: So this R20,00 was for transport?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you have something to say?

WITNESS:   No.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you through?

WITNESS:   Yes, I'm through.

MRS GCABASHE: We thank you, Josias.  As I said that that time it was a time when any people suffered especially the  youth.  In particular I'm impressed that you want to go on with your education because in this new order we need educated people to improve this nation.  I would ask you to spell me this name Spanas Dibuka.  Can you ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   L-I-L-E-B-O-K.  This Spanas is written as you call it.  Spanas.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you want to further your studies?  This request you have made, we'll take this request as a report to the President.  He is the one who ... (incomplete)   How does this incident affect your parents?  Are they well?

WITNESS:   What I know is that it has badly affected my mother emotionally.  Anything which happens to me is not able to be in control of the situation because what has happened to me.  I try to make myself forget so that weekend and weekend I just drink so as to forget everything.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you the one who's drinking on the weekend?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's myself.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you have a drinking problem during the weekend?

WITNESS:   That is the thing which makes me stop to worry about what happened to me.

MRS GCABASHE: Don't you think you need doctor's help, maybe a psychologist to help you?

WITNESS:   I think that would help.

MRS GCABASHE: I think you need to get that psychological help because this thing of forgetting through drinking is going to affect you and your future would not be bright.  That is the one thing which we would look as whether how can we help.  Did you go to the doctor about this drinking problem?

WITNESS:   No.

MRS GCABASHE: Is that which troubles your mother?

WITNESS:   Yes. We must try to help you to see a psychologist to try to help.  The drinking thing would not help you to forget.  Do you got to church?   ---   No, I don't go to church.

MRS GCABASHE: Maybe we will help how we would find someone who would help you with your drinking problem.  I thank you very much.  Thank you, Chair, I now return.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Josias.  We have heard, we have listened to what you are saying and again I want to express on behalf of the members our sincere appreciation for your courage to come and tell a story about yourself and about some of your Comrades.  It is such a pity that young people of your age had to suffer in such a way that they would find it very hard to continue their plans in life.  And what is more happening is to find that most of the perpetrators are having jokes, enjoying themselves, supporting their families and others are holding positions in the government.  This is really a concern that people who caused so much havoc in the old dispensation, tortured people, people became handicapped, they themselves are having a high profile in our government.  As the fellow colleague has said, we have noted your requests and they will be forwarded to the President and the government.  I'm very much interested about your willing to go back to school because we need to empower ourselves now with skills, even if you go to work, you get a job, you have no skills and I think people who don't have skills are going to have it hard in this new South Africa because what is going to be used is the skills.  So I just pray that your dream about going back to school will come  into fulfilment.  Give our love to your family and to your mother.  We shall also remember them.  Thank you very much.
/CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: I think we're going to take just one before we go for tea.  We're already behind schedule.  We're going to take Eric Sipho Khonzana.
EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS BETWEEN CHAIRMAN AND WITNESSES

CHAIRPERSON: I see that you are two there whereas here on my schedule I've got Eric.  Who is Eric.

MR KHONZANA: I'm Eric.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the second one.

JOSEPH MOGATLE: I'm Joseph Mogatle.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you accompanying Eric or not?

JOSEPH MOGATLE: We were together when we were shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: So you want also to speak in this hearing.

JOSEPH MOGATLE: Yes, I would prefer to speak.

CHAIRPERSON: It means then that both of you will have to take an oath that what you're going to say here is true.  Now, may we begin with Eric.  Eric can you stand up. Take an oath.

MR KHONZANA: Help me God to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your name by the way.

JOSEPH MOGATLE: Richard Mogatle.

CHAIRPERSON: Richard can you take an oath?

JOSEPH MOGATLE: I'm ready to take an oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Take it.

JOSEPH MOGATLE: Help me got to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask one of my colleagues, Professor Simangele Magwaza, to lead you in what you want to day.  Thank you very much.
/ERIC SIPHO KHONZANA
ERIC SIPHO KHONZANA  (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

PROF MAGWAZA: I greet you both and welcome you for having come forward today to tell us about your story.  I'm aware that you are quite young and it helps us - we usually appreciate it if we also have young people, who have fought for the struggle, to tell us about their own experiences.  I'll start by you Eric.  The statement I have here is that you live at 1578 Msakas in Masilo and that you were born in March 1964.  You are here today to make a statement relating to the killing and injuring of Comrades by police.  That's right?

WITNESS:   That's correct

PROF MAGWAZA: To start, Eric, could you just tell us more about yourself and then about your family.