Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-19

MR VHANA: No, I don't have any details according to the South African government's involvement, because I was never in the negotiating table with the members of the South African Government at that time. If they had any involvement, I can never say no to that, but in September 1990, Duli said to me that he was going to go with me. He has been called in Tanzania, but unfortunately I didn't have an international passport at that time.  He then left with Mr M Somdaka to Tanzania. When they came back they called me. I was in Johannesburg at the time. So they told me that they are back, I must meet him, Craig Duli.  That is now when he told me that that group - he didn't tell me which group that was ... (END OF TAPE 1 - SIDE B).
 ... and personnel.  But I said to Craig Duli no, they must not give me these things because we are not going to fight anyone there, we are just going to take Holomisa off the government.  There was no reason for any personnel or firearms or uniform for this.   These were just too much.

UNKNOWN: It is the same period that the high officials of the Transkeian government came to East London.  That was when you were on your way to Tholomga, just under the bridge, that is where they used to meet.

MR VHANA: I used to just lie somewhere at a distance. At the time I used just a small machine of this size.  Duli used to have something that he used to think that it looked
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like a ball-point pen in his pocket.  When you are talking to him, from two metres away I would be able to record what you are saying, listen to you.  
 Now in another occasion, in other occasions they would meet in Queenstown, that is where he used to meet with Sofoke, Mkwebi and Begebo.

UNKNOWN: Before I conclude, Mr Vhana, I am going to ask you the last question.  I am sure Mr Vhana, that you know, you know that when you meet and you as a group, make a decision to do a coup d'etat, surely there would be some resistance from the other side.  In other words, they would of course be against what you are trying to do, meaning that there would be some kind of violence.   Did you ever discuss about if there would be that kind of violence, how would you manage with that?  How would you counter that violence or that resistance?

MR VHANA: Mr Chairman, I asked him what are we going to do if there is a problem.  What he said was no, there would not be any problem, because I am always with you, I am always with you when we have to meet, with this recording machine; have you forgotten? When we get there we are going to meet with the soldiers and we are going to go to Bordersdal together with the soldiers and we are going to take over the government. We never expected any kind of resistance.  We never expected any kind of resistance at all.

UNKNOWN: Lastly, Mr Vhana, I am sure with your presence here you are willing to co-operate with the investigation committee when it is trying to investigate about this matter.  Am I right about that?

MR VHANA: Yes, you are right, I am prepared to co-operate.
There is one more point that I would like to raise. Even 
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though I have mentioned this again in the courts of law, before the Judge, I did ask for forgiveness on behalf of the late Craig and other men that were with me.   I ask for forgiveness from our ancestors.  Even for those heroes who fell on that day, even on the same day.  I didn't want this to happen. Even as I didn't want this to happen that all those fallen heroes should fall because of bullets that came from us.  We did not kill anyone, because we were told not to kill anyone. Now what was puzzling to me was, to be given firearms from Yolo, but I didn't know what to do with these firearms but at the time we didn't even have a chance to ask questions. But we were just told okay, we will be following these men in front of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Vhana and Mrs Duli.

NONTOBEKO DULI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: I have just two questions.  Surely when you - do you want to put on the head-phones or can you understand me?

MR VHANA: Yes, I can understand you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Surely when you planned this coup, there must have been some expectation that there would be some violence.  That is the first question I want to ask you.  The second one is, maybe I misunderstood in the translation, but you said Gen Holomisa would be taken out.  What exactly did - was intended by that?

MR VHANA: As I have indicated, Craig Duli told us at that we would not meet with any resistance.  So it would have been impossible for any form of violence to erupt on that day.  This is what Craig Duli told us.
 Your second question, Mamma, what I mean by saying taking Gen Holomisa out, I mean he was to be replaced 
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together with his military council by an interim structure which would have been headed by the Chief Justice together with nine traditional leaders, who would govern Transkei until such time that elections were held, and the government returned to the people of Transkei.  This is what I meant. This is what I mean.

YASMINE SOOKA: Surely you did not expect that Gen Holomisa would not put up some resistance to that?

MR VHANA: Definitely, yes, Mamma. In view of the fact that Craig Duli together with the top brass of the members of the Defence Force, we never expected any form of resistance. Particularly also that his right-hand man Mulelokaba who was acting as his private secretary, was too involved in the planning of the take-over.

YASMINE SOOKA: What went wrong then, and why was there resistance?

MR VHANA: I may guess that Craig Duli, we were let down, we were betrayed at the eleventh hour, because Lieut-Col Nzwyba met us at three o'clock in the morning at the airwing. He asked a question. So, I quote, "so you have arrived, brother Craig".  In Xhosa (quotes in Xhosa).

YASMINE SOOKA: You know that there are allegations that the South African Defence Force was involved in that.  Did you have any knowledge of that?

MR VHANA: I did not have any knowledge thereof, although I say today, I cannot deny that, because I never had any occasion to see, sit and discuss with any of the members, of the South African Government.  Be that as it may, I cannot deny that one fact. I can only take it as one of the secrets that Craig decided to keep away from me.

YASMINE SOOKA: One last question. You talked about an
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investigation afterwards.  Who carried that out?  You talked about the court procedure where you apologized.  What was that about?

MR VHANA: It was, we were brought before the Supreme Court and found guilty.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Could I ask Mrs Duli a question, please.  On the last page of your statement, you make mention that your husband had external injuries at the back.  What court procedure was that about?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Those were the court proceedings in connection with the coup.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you, thank you, Mr Chair.  Just for the sake of clarity for the Commission. You have referred a lot to Gen Holomisa. Are you referring to the one who is now a member of Parliament?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Yes.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe also just to clarify the Commission's understanding.  You said with a lot of emotions that your late husband was very close to Gen Holomisa and you made mention to the fact that on the day when he was going to be arrested, he phoned him, asking him to look after you.

NONTOBEKO DULI: That is true.

MS MKHIZE: Having said all that, can you maybe enlighten the Commission as to any type of conversation that emanated between you and Gen Holomisa after the death of your husband, if any?