Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR KNOETZE: Did you receive any training when you were a member of AWB?   What was it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was normal militarily uptraining,
training as shooting, as well as marching,  etcetera.

MR KNOETZE: Did you do any service while you were a member of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did.

MR KNOETZE: What was that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I was a driver of Mr Kloppers, as well as his bodyguard, and I also did security work for General Oelofse, as well as his wife, Stefanie Oelofse.

MR KNOETZE: Did you partake in any demonstrations or marches of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I partook in them.

MR KNOETZE: When?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: In Vereeniging.

MR KNOETZE: And what did it entail?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was a march the AWB had, together with Inkatha, and I went there in order for guidance as well as for the protection of Oelofse and his wife.

MR KNOETZE: These things, did you do them while you were in the complete uniform of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Now, except for the other members of the AWB, of this group who was also aware of the fact that you were a member of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The whole Wesrand vicinity, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: How can you say that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I was a well-known person, not only in Randfontein, but on the whole Wesrand.

MR KNOETZE: Can the committee make an inference then that you were proud of the fact that you were a member of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I was very proud of the fact.

MR KNOETZE: Did you also attend some of their political meetings?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did attend them.

MR KNOETZE: Can you mention a few of those to the committee members?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: One in Johannesburg where the leader, Eugene Terreblanche, spoke to me personally.

MR KNOETZE: And these political meetings, what kind of uniform did you wear?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did it in civvy clothes, as well as in AWB uniform.

MR KNOETZE: So what did you want to achieve by being a member of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: In order to obtain the so-called "volkstaat" and to make use of it.

MR KNOETZE: How did it become that during the evening of 12th of March 1993, in uniform, sorry, not March, but December, sorry, Chairperson, December 1993, in your AWB uniform, how did you arrive at the roadhouse between quarter past seven... (intervention).

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I found, I received a call from Deon Martin's wife, that's Louise Martins, and she told me that Chief Commandant Klopper gave an instruction that we were going to work that evening, and she also mentioned to me that it has to take place in complete AWB uniform.

MR KNOETZE: Maybe you must just speak a little bit slower.  Then you went to the roadhouse, that's a well-known fact, what happened there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: We waited there for Kloppers, as well as for Visser, and a little while later Visser arrived, and then Klopper arrived, and then Martin brought us all to attention.   He saluted Kloppers and then Kloppers said that that night we are going to work.

MR KNOETZE: What else was said?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: He asked who did not have weapons and three persons reacted and said, me myself, Gert Diedericks, as well as Visser.

MR KNOETZE: Did he do something with regards to that situation?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, he gave two pipe shotguns to myself and to Mr Diedericks.

MR KNOETZE: You heard the accusations of what you then apparently had said with regards to the obtaining of the weapons and you said that you wanted it so you could show how you're going to shoot kaffirs that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I heard the accusations, yes.

MR KNOETZE: What's your comment?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's a blatant lie.

MR KNOETZE: While we're at this point, eventually we know, the committee knows, that Diedericks did not have the weapon when this shooting took place.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, he did not have a pipe shotgun when the shooting took place.

MR KNOETZE: How did that come about?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: After the pipe shotgun was given to me and Diedericks at the roadside cafe, Kloppers said that we had to get into the vehicles and we must go to Badenhorst's house.

MR KNOETZE: To make it short, the pipe shotgun, was it then taken at a later stage, taken from Diedericks and given to Visser?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Where did this happen?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: This happened at Deon Martin's smallholding.

MR KNOETZE: If we can just come back to the roadhouse, you heard what the other applicants said with regards to what Kloppers then would have said that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I heard that, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: What's your comment on that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was not the evening he said these things.

MR KNOETZE: Did he say that the revolution would start that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, under no circumstances.

MR KNOETZE: Did he say that Japie Oelofse wanted to see bodies?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Under no circumstances.

MR KNOETZE: Did he talk about the real McCoy?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, he did not.

MR KNOETZE: Hard options?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Under no circumstances.

MR KNOETZE: So you left there, you left the roadhouse, and where did you go then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I got into the car of Andre Visser, into his Sentra, and I went to Jaco Badenhorst's parents' home.

MR KNOETZE: And what happened there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: When we got there, we only used two vehicles, the Mercedes Benz and the Sentra, and the registration numbers of both vehicles were changed by using masking tape.

MR KNOETZE: And from there, where did you go when you left there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: From Mr Badenhorst's house we went to Visser's flat.

MR KNOETZE: What happened there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: When we got there, a bottle of whisky was produced.   It wasn't completely full, and it was already open.   Me personally did not drink any of the whisky, but there were some of the members who did drink the whisky.

MR KNOETZE: Okay.   And where did you go after you've left that flat?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: From there we went to Deon Martin's smallholding.

MR KNOETZE: What happened there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There Kloppers brought a bottle of brandy as well as two litres of Coke, the bottle of brandy was half full and he divided this between the two vehicles, discussions were also held, and we said that we'd set up a roadblock and the necessary equipment was handed over to us there.

MR KNOETZE: Did you receive any of the equipment?   What did you receive?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I got the jacket, the shining jacket.

MR KNOETZE: What happened when you left there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: After we received everything, we left there.   We were a few metres away from Martin's smallholding when we saw two blacks walking in the road.  The Sentra stopped.   Some of the members, myself included, jumped out.   The blacks who walked there, we followed them and we assaulted them.

MR KNOETZE: Maybe you must just quickly go back to the instruction that a roadblock should be held.   What was the purpose of the roadblock?