Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MR DORFLING: Now I want to put it to you that there was evidence lead at the inquest proceedings of a certain Mr von Egidy who was amongst that marchers approaching the corner of King George and de Villiers Street. He was amongst the marchers in de Villiers Street and he never saw an incident where people from amongst the marchers fired at ANC guards positioned in front of them. The only thing he perceived to have happened is that shots were coming from ahead of them in the direction of the marchers. Can you offer any explanation?

MR TIPP: Chairperson the evidence of the witness Mr von Eggedy is that shots were fired ahead of him in de Villiers Street.

MR DORFLING: Indeed ahead of them and coming past them Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Direction?

MR DORFLING: From ahead of the position where he was amongst the marchers. And those shots came in other words from ahead and went past him. Would you like to comment on that Llale? Do you have no knowledge of that?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The only thing I know is that earlier on before I went to that corner I heard gun shots but whether they were from the marchers or from the ANC guards I am not sure about that.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I see that it is one 'o clock. I do not know whether you would like to take the lunch adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment now and resume at two 'o clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: You are reminded that you are still under oath. Thank you. Mr Dorfling.

MOSES VELI LLALE: (s.u.o.)

MR DORFLING: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chair, Honourable members. Mr Llale can we deal with your state of mind at the time when you were positioned on the parapet prior to the main shooting occurring. Did you at that point in time have any information available to yourself that there might well be an attack on Shell House that day?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Where did you obtain that information?

MOSES VELI LLALE: From the meeting which was addressed by Joe Nhlanhla in the morning.

MR DORFLING: Did you have any idea or any perception in your own mind as to how that attack would take place? What mode of attack would be used?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At that time what was in my mind was that after the gathering of the IFP people in library garden they will all march to Shell House and storm Shell House.

MR DORFLING: In other words if there were to be an attack it would happen after the library gardens gathering?

MOSES VELI LLALE: That was what it was in my mind at that time.

MR DORFLING: And now let's move on to see whether this perception of yours had changed at any stage. When you saw the group of marchers approaching down de Villiers Street from Wanderers Street side, from west to east in other words - did that perception of yours change? Did you then think: "No, no wait they are not going to be attacking after library gardens. This might now be it"?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At that time I didn't know whether this group was from library garden. I thought it was one of the groups which was going to pass Shell House like the others which have already passed.

MR DORFLING: So at the time when you observed this group for the first time coming down de Villiers Street you thought it was going to be a normal group like all the previous groups that morning. Is that right?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: And did your mind-set change as they approached and as you heard shooting emanating from the crowd?

MOSES VELI LLALE: My mind changed after shots were fired into the parapet. That is when my mind changed that there was something wrong now.

MR DORFLING: So when the man with the AK47 in the red T-shirt was pointed out to you by Mr Molefe you still thought it was an innocent crowd who were going to pass like the previous groups of marchers?

MOSES VELI LLALE: He only surprised me they way he was carrying it but at that stage I didn't think he would use it.

MR DORFLING: What about the other marchers amongst whom you saw pistols. Did that change your mind-set?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The groups which passed earlier on had their pistol openly and they never shot at us. And the other ones were conceived so in my mind I thought those were long rifles but I didn't see them because they were conceived.

MR DORFLING: I notice you use the word conceived, you mean they were hidden - concealed?

CHAIRPERSON: It is the impression we formed when he first used the word earlier in his evidence.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair. Now what made you change your mind or your perception as to what was happening were the shots that were fired in your direction. Is that correct? I mean in your direction in the plural, where the guards were positioned?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) when they fired shots at the parapet so just not to avoid confusion just confine yourself to the parapet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Chair. What made you change your mind was that shots were being fired at the parapet. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is correct.

MR DORFLING: Apart from that fact the shots being fired at the parapet was there any other incident or any other occurrence that made you change your mind or that contributed to your attitude changing?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When the two policemen who tried to stop the marchers and suddenly to turn and run back also that gave me something in my mind that something was wrong with this group. And now the combination of the policemen and the shooting and the forceful push because suddenly they rushed forward. But at that time that is when I had already (...indistinct) from the parapet.

MR DORFLING: So at the time when the two policemen were shoved out of the way that is the evidence, the nature of your evidence when the policemen were forcefully removed from the front of the on-coming marchers. Did you at that stage think that these people were now going to attack?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I started becoming suspicious from there that something was wrong now.

MR DORFLING: Did you have any idea in your own mind at that point in time where they were going?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At that time I thought they were just pushing forward to proceed to Plein Street.

MR DORFLING: You didn't perceive that to be the commencement of an attack on Shell House?

MOSES VELI LLALE: And there was no shots at that time. I am saying at that specific time. Then at that time I was not that shaken but I was beginning to be nervous then.

MR DORFLING: The question is more specific Mr Llale. At that point in time when the two policemen were shoved out of the way you didn't perceive it to be the commencement of the attack, the start of attack on Shell House?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Can I have your answer clear? Yes you didn't perceive it to be the commencement of an attack?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I think I said yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he became suspicious.

MR DORFLING: What made you decide that an attack had commenced?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When I heard the first shots directed at where I was standing with Mr Molefe.

MR DORFLING: How many shots were directed at where you were standing with Mr Molefe?

MOSES VELI LLALE: If I recall it was three shots that I heard.

MR DORFLING: Was this the time when Mr Molefe pushed or dragged you down?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now during the actual shooting, the main incident can we just establish whether you can recall whom of the security guards you saw firing shots from the parapet?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The person I saw with my own eyes was Mr Jakwe Molefe his firearm by then was pointing upwards.

MR DORFLING: Did you become aware of any other security guards shooting from the parapet whether you saw it or heard it?

MOSES VELI LLALE: If I recall well after a (...indistinct) from where I was Steve Moolman passed then I heard a shot emanating from where he was standing but I didn't see it. I heard it.

MR DORFLING: Anybody else?