Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, I don't want to take this too far at this stage, but according to your own evidence, she was dealt 10 to 15 blows within 15 to 20 minutes.  That is approximately once every minute.  Why was that necessary if she indicated a willingness to co-operated?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, yes, you asked how many times she was hit.  I didn't count the number of times, it may be less, it may also have been more.  Similarly with regard to the time, after such a long time it is very difficult to say precisely how long it took or how many blows were dealt.  The intention was not to hit her in order to assault her.  Col Taylor was trying to prove his point when he hit her with the sjambok on the back, it may have been two to three blows per occasion and then he would have continued.

MR LAX: I think though with respect, Mr Botha, the impression that one is left with is that, and we understand you're estimating and you're trying to remember something that happened years ago, but the fact remains that however you try to stretch it, that's quite a lot of hits to get in the time period concerned and I think that's the point my colleague's making.  And you will concede.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would concede to that.

MR LAX: It's not the sort of behaviour towards somebody who's co-operating with you that you'd expect in the circumstance and I think that's the point my colleague is making.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, but the point that I am trying to make is that it was not a continuous battery while questions were being put.  There would be questions which she would respond negatively to and then there would be three to four blows.

MR LAX: You don't understand Zulu yourself.  You don't know what the nature of the questions were.  You don't even know what was going on in Col Taylor's mind and you're giving us an impression that that was what he was trying to achieve.  We're saying, looking at it externally, based on your evidence that she was co-operating, this is not consistent with that evidence and that's the point we're trying to put to you.  Do you see it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I understand what you are trying to say, but if you consider the circumstances, you will understand that what I'm trying to submit to you is that we had three persons who were speaking Zulu to her ...(intervention)

MR LAX: I do understand very well.

ADV BOSMAN: I will not take it any further.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, just to round this off, it is your honest and sincere intention to make a full disclosure in as far as it is possible for you in terms of the knowledge that you have of this incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is my intention.

MR VISSER: Very well, please proceed.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Everyone left the room while Col Taylor and I discussed the problem.  The fact that Mbane had met her alone and I believed that no-one except us knew that she had been arrested. ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Would that be "arrested" in quotation marks?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.   Was an important consideration in favour of a decision that we would not deal with the body in the regular way.  In the light of the considerations mentioned above, Col Taylor and I decided to deal with her body in an unlawful manner and to cover up our involvement in her death.  We decided that her body would be dropped off at a place near her residence where it would be discovered.  We believed that her identity would be determined by means of fingerprints or identification by her family.
	I informed Maj du Preez, who had returned in the meantime and asked ...(intervention).

MR WILLS: Sorry, sorry.  Mr Chairperson, I'm battling with the writing here, I can't understand Afrikaans.  If he could just speak a little bit slower so I can get  a full interpretation of this statement, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand him?  If you could just speak a little bit slower.  Thanks.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Would you like me to return to paragraph 31?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I don't know what paragraph he's on, I'm battling to...

CHAIRPERSON: Page 7 of the statement.

MR LAX: He doesn't understand Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay,  Paragraph 31 says that the witness, that's Col Botha and Col Taylor decided to deal with the body in an unlawful fashion.

MR WILLS: That's the last thing I've got.

CHAIRPERSON: So then perhaps if you can go from paragraph 32 please.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We decided that her body would have to be dropped off at a place near her residence, where it would be discovered.  We believed that her identity would be determined by means of fingerprints or identification by her family.  I informed Maj du Preez who had returned in the meantime and requested to remove the body later that evening, when the other members had left the camp or had gone to sleep.  I gave him the order to go and drop off the body in the vicinity of her residence.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, whose decision was it actually when you refer in paragraph 31, was it Col Taylor's decision and order or was it your decision and order, or was this a mutual decision between the two of you and executed as such?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was a joint decision.

MR VISSER: And in the light thereof, you then issued the order to du Preez?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Please proceed with paragraph 34.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Approximately an hour later, Maj du Preez and W/O Wasserman departed in a vehicle and I informed Col Taylor that they would make a plan to leave the body in a place where it would be discovered.
	I spent that night at the shooting range and I was there the following morning before sunrise when Maj du Preez and W/O Wasserman returned.

MR VISSER: Did they report to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That same day Mbane was tasked by me and Col Baker to contact the Khubeka family.  The objective was to determine whether the family knew something already.  Later that afternoon Mbane reported back that according to her family, she had gone to see her boys.  The day after the same process was followed and once again the message was that she was with her boys.
	According to my knowledge the incident was never exposed.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, I may have expressed this poorly.  According to you, was her body ever found?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I don't know.

MR VISSER: Very well.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: By means of the Intelligence Network of the Security Branch in kwaMashu, months later it was determined that Khubeka, along with another black woman, Tryfinia Njokweni had left the RSA for Mozambique seeing as their activities in kwaMashu had attracted the attention of the Security Branch.  This information fitted in very well in covering up her death and the unfortunate episode was also concluded as such.
	From documents before the Committee it is alleged that Khubeka's body was dug up and it was found that she had a gunshot would in the back of her head.  I know that she did not have any shot wounds.

MR VISSER: Are you referring to the time at the shooting range, until Wasserman and du Preez took her away?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  According to du Preez and Wasserman her body was dropped off next to the Inanda highway near Bambayi.

MR VISSER: ...to volume 3 of the report, page 203, it is noted in the document from page 7 to page 8, if you wish to read it, what the TRC reported in regard to the death of Ms Khubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that reference again, please Mr Visser?