Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: To explain this, General Nqoya was not to go to the meeting, the person who would go to that meeting was Brigadier Bongusa and the other members who were coming from Pretoria to address the other members but because that meeting was postponed and then he decided to go there and then he went to the hall thinking that the meeting was in process but when he arrived there seeing that Brigadier Bongusa was not there and I also saw that this was not the kind of meeting that he talked about.  He asked me where General Nqoya was, I told him and then he said he was not supposed to go there without phoning him first.  That was not a normal procedure if there would be a meeting and then it would end up changing to be that situation.

MR OBOSE: I see, then Bongusa, what did Bongusa say about his, that is Bongusa's attendance of the meeting?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: He said he was not going to that meeting.

MR OBOSE: And yet he was the head of the college?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that's what he told me.

MR OBOSE: You say immediately Nqoya got to the hall people chanted "down with Nqoya"?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct, they were not singing but they were just saying "down with Nqoya."

MR OBOSE: Was this - on any other occasion heard these police shouting "down with Nqoya" in his presence?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I just saw that for the first time hearing the police saying that in his presence and in my presence too.

MR OBOSE: When you got there in the evening, was there any singing of freedom songs in the hall at Bisho Police College?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: There were no freedom songs when I got in there.  There was no singing inside, each and every one as we were coming in, each and every one wanted to be in the forefront and to see General Nqoya, that is when we were told to go back so that the car could get some space but there was no singing.

MR OBOSE: In any event, Mr Luwana, you never attended the meeting yourself, you only went there as Nqoya's bodyguard, you were not party to this meeting, isn't that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I was a policeman, I was part of the meeting.  The one where preparations of elections were going to be made.

MR OBOSE: You don't understand my question, what I'm putting to you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose, you don't have headphones on so you can't hear when the interpreter is still speaking to us, interpreting, then you ask your question.  We're missing your question.

MR OBOSE: Oh, excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: So take it easy.

MR OBOSE: Excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR OBOSE: Your attending the meeting, Mr Luwana, was only on the occasions you went there as Brigadier Nqoya's bodyguard, that's all.  Those are the only occasions you were in that hall?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes it was at the time I was with Mr Nqoya getting into the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Okay.  Is it correct that you were armed with Uzi sub-machine guns?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: No that is not true.

MR OBOSE: Moleketsi?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: He did not have an Uzi firearm.

MR OBOSE: You heard Mr Sibuqashe testify, is that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: No I was not present, I was outside.

MR OBOSE: His evidence is that in the afternoon of the 22nd March 1994 he found you and your other bodyguard armed with sub-machine guns and he didn't want to let them have access to Mr Nqoya and they found Mr Nqoya what looked like a conference room and he was on the phone, is that correct?
That's at the commissioner's office next to the legislature as I understand it?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That did not happen that the police looked for us and found us next to the commissioner's office.  We moved from the college to Brigadier Gqozo's office, from there to the ministerial complex.  The firearms that we had were 9 mm.  Even today I still do not have mine.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct, Mr Luwana, that General Nqoya was close to Brigadier Gqozo or at least in the nature of things would have been perceived as being close to Brigadier Gqozo?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is not true.  To prove that is not true, General Nqoya was an officer, his brother was shot at Bisho massacre because of what Brigadier Gqozo did therefore what they say it's not true, he was not close but because of the post that he was in, his position, he was forced to be there in that particular position.

MR OBOSE: They would naturally meet and discuss strategy, they were the two generals, right?   Other one heading the State, other one heading the police?  Naturally, head of State and the commissioner would meet now and again, it's logical, isn't that so?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct but he was not the only police officer.  Normally all the departmental heads in the police force would meet with counsel of State or president to give a report back from the ground.

MR OBOSE: And to be given instructions by the head of State and or the counsel and they would in turn pass it on to the police?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is not the procedure.  The police get the instructions from Brigadier Gqozo, issues are discussed.  Brigadier Gqozo is a politician and General Nqoya was just a policeman, he would state his facts and the police would discuss that subject and decide whether they should go ahead or not.

MR OBOSE: Oh, so Nqoya would give information to Gqozo about what is happening on the ground as a policeman?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: There was no stage where General Nqoya would go to Brigadier Gqozo alone and give information not unless he was summoned to a meeting by Brigadier Gqozo.  All the departmental heads would be present to give reports according to their fields.

MR OBOSE: And the departmental heads were officers, naturally?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Each will have a departmental head who is an NCO?
Are the departmental heads NCOs?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: No they are not NCOs.

MR OBOSE: So the perception may very well have been that the officers are working in collaboration with Gqozo, wouldn't that have been fair to say?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I am not sure what kind of collaboration?

MR OBOSE: Well, they'd go and brief him and meet him in meetings and he would chair the meeting as a head of State, is that so?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes they would be sent or that would be a mandate from the police on the ground, non-commissioned officers and then they would give a mandate to their head and the head would report to the council.

MR OBOSE: Alright Mr Luwana, last two questions.  You say Gqozo phoned the army.  Okay naturally you don't know who he spoke to and you heard him commenting that even the army is with this now, is that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: And roughly what time was this phone call made?  Of course asking you to estimate now.

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I think it was about 4 or 5.

MR OBOSE: Or shortly or at least roughly an hour thereafter he went home, that is Brigadier Gqozo, at about 6 he went home or shortly after that phone call?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: After that phone call it became clear that there was a misunderstanding between him and the soldiers.  He told the Minister of Police, Brunet that is, to organise a stability unit to go and fetch the minister as the soldiers were refusing to go there and then he left about an hour after that.

MR OBOSE: Now did Brigadier Gqozo, as his title indicates, brigadier, was the head of the army as well, not so?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: He was a counsel of State in charge of all the departments, yes he was a soldier.

MR OBOSE: And he was telling the soldiers to do something and as you ...(indistinct) say, there was a misunderstanding?