Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, they were part of the attack.

MR BERGER: And who were they?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was Lucky, Makuka, Dondo, Timothy Mazibuko, but he used to two rooms.  He used to live with us and also with Nana, and Zamu as well.

MR BERGER: You all shared a room?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct, we used the same room.

MR BERGER: What about Kleintjie?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he lived in another room, in another flat.

MR BERGER: And Smo?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He also stayed at another flat.

MR BERGER: Skalo?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, Skalo lived with Kleintjie as well.

MR BERGER: Gazaza?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: And Gazaza as well lived with Kleintjie.

MR BERGER: Bobo?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, Bobo lived with Kleintjie as well.

MR BERGER: Tapelo?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: And Tapelo as well was there.

MR BERGER: And Nteba?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he lived with us.  I forgot to count him.

MR BERGER: You see, you were asked a question at the criminal trial, page 3007
"Who stayed with you at that time ..."
That's the time of the attack.
"... stayed with you in your room?"
Which is room number 5.  And your answer was:
"It was Kleintjie, Smo, Skalo, Gazaza, Bobo, Tapelo, Nteba.  These are all the people who lived together with me."
Besides Nteba, the rest of the names you mentioned there was a lie?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was lying then because I wanted to win the case.  I never stayed with those people.

MR BERGER: Did those people participate in the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, all of them except Bobo.  I never saw Bobo during the attack.

MR BERGER: What room did they all live in?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: They all lived in room number 5.

MR BERGER: And you lived in another room?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I stayed at Zone 2.

MR BERGER: Zone 2, KwaMadala?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: With all the people that you mentioned: Dondo, Lucky and Mazibuko?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.  I said that Mazibuko also had another room except the one we lived together in.

MR BERGER: Yes, you said he also stayed with Nana Tshabangu.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And what room did Andries Nosenga live in when he came to the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He used to live in room number 5.  He never stayed at the Zone 2 area.

MR BERGER: Did he ever come to the Zone 2 area?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He used to come because when we were sitting under the trees, when we were washing the cars, he would come and visit us and sit with us.

MR BERGER: He was your friend?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he was not my friend.

MR BERGER: He used to come and sit with you and the other men from your room under the tree, chat.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I will answer this way.  We used to live there together, we didn't care where you lived, in which room you stayed.  So we used to chat together at one place.

MR BERGER: But there was no ill-feeling between him and you and any of the people in your room?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Why did you steal a blanket and a sound system from Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: The place where we lived we had nothing.  I used to sleep on the bricks.  We didn't have blankets.  We had very small blankets.  So when I used to sleep always me feet will be outside.

MR BERGER: So the living conditions of the residents at KwaMadala were bad?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, they were bad.

MR BERGER: Not just for you but for all the residents of the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I agree with you when you say that.

MR BERGER: And in Boipatong there were television sets, sound systems, blankets, food, money, and all of that was stolen during the massacre and taken back to the hostel to improve the living conditions of the residents of KwaMadala, would that be fair?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now those goods were burnt the following day.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Why?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We heard that the police were coming and they will get evidence, so it was decided that those goods should be burnt.

MR BERGER: Who decided that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I don't know who took that decision but the person that I remember telling us to burn those goods was Richard Dlamini.

MR BERGER: Did he come to your room to say you must bring your goods or bring the loot to the rubbish bin, we're going to burn it?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he went from room to room.  If he knew that you had property from Boipatong, he would tell you to take it out because the police were coming.  So we took all the goods and we burnt them.

MR BERGER: And you didn't argue with him because you were afraid if the police come they might see that you've got some property?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Weren't you afraid of being arrested when you left the hostel to go and attack Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I did that because I knew that it would happen during the night and if the people come to arrest me I will fight back and shoot at them.

MR BERGER: Were you or were you not afraid that you would be arrested?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I was not afraid that I would be arrested.

MR BERGER: And what about the army, you knew that the army patrolled the area around the hostel, weren't you afraid that the soldiers might shoot you or arrest you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Those are the people that I even didn't think about.  I didn't even think about them.  The only people that I thought about were the police.  I didn't think about the soldiers at all.

MR BERGER: And do you remember when you came out of Boipatong, you all congregated in the veld before you crossed over the road?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I remember when we were leaving Boipatong, I remember that.

MR BERGER: And you were still carrying your sound system, probably in the blanket, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I put the blanket on my shoulder and in my hands I had the radio.  When we gathered there at the open veld I put the sound system on the ground and that is where I wrapped it with a blanket.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  We intend taking a break at about quarter past 10, so if it is convenient at about that time, let us know.  Thank you.

MR BERGER: After you put the sound system into the blanket you then picked it up and you moved towards KwaMadala hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And many of your co-attackers were also carrying stuff, television sets, food, blankets, video recorders, all sorts of things, other people were also carrying, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I would not say all of them because when I say all of them, that would mean everybody who left KwaMadala had a property, but many of them had property with them but others did not.

MR BERGER: Yes.  And when you saw the army stationed there, you say it was at the corner by the garage, you didn't think to drop your loot and run quickly to KwaMadala, did you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I didn't think about that because I knew that if I leave it there, this is what I wanted, I cannot leave it there.  So I wanted them to arrest me with the property that I wanted.  I wanted to cross the road with that property.

MR BERGER: And not only you but many of your co-attackers also continued carrying the goods despite the presence of the army about 30 metres away, am I right?