Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ADV GCABASHE: You approached this motor vehicle and my perception is you were in charge, so my perception is the plan was you would do all the talking essentially because you approached the driver, am I correct in  this?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Ourselves as activists within the ANC do not take solo decisions, we would put our heads together and discuss a matter.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, so what had you discussed, who was going to do the talking, because I'm sure you didn't expect the two of you to be giving instructions at the same time?  I could be wrong.  What did you discuss and then what actually happened?  What did you discuss and how did you go about putting those discussions into operation?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, I was in charge of the unit.  I came up with ideas that I am the one who should carry the firearm because I have knowledge about firearms, so that nothing should go wrong.  I also explained this to comrade Sinamela.

ADV GCABASHE: You see the reason I ask this is, if you were at the driver's door and your colleague was at the passenger door and your colleague spoke to this particular woman about her handbag, is it possible that you would not have heard him?  Just explain because you were there, you can explain it best.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Let me explain this.  There is something that I did not explain quite well.  My colleague on the left-hand side of the vehicle stood there and the window was closed.  He broke it.  I am the one who was talking to the people, the window was closed on the other side.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry I think the interpreter -  you were going a little fast, he missed a little bit about what you were saying but from trying to listen to both you are saying that the passenger window was closed and the comrade on the other side broke that window.  I didn't quite get that, what I'd like to know is did you not hear him say anything at all, certainly to this particular woman about this bag?  Because the record on page 35 speaks about a bag that was taken.  She may have been lying, you are best able to help us with that.  I don't know.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Let me take my time and go slower.  As I was on the right-hand side, my colleague on the left-hand side, the window on the left-hand side where the lady was sitting was closed and when the first gunshot was fired I retreated and retaliated.  It is only then that my colleague broke the window.  I would not tell a lie and say I heard him talk because there was an exchange of gunfire at the time.

ADV GCABASHE: Then you got into the driver's seat and did the driving, is that right?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: No, after shooting him my colleague after breaking the window unlocked the door, took the woman out, came to the other side of the driver's seat, we pulled the white man who was already lying down and I took the left-hand seat and we fled.

ADV GCABASHE: And you saw no handbag as you sat on the passenger's seat?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: No, I did not see any handbag.

ADV GCABASHE: Then a final question, when did you find out that the motor vehicle had not been burnt?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I learnt about this on the day during which I was arrested at dawn because the police came and they asked whether I was Saint Manyamala and I said yes and they indicated that they had come to arrest me for stealing a car at Gosforth Park and killing a white male and injuring a white female.  It then occurred to me that that is how the evidence led to me.  My comrades met me after my instruction and they told me that they had burnt the car but I learnt later on that they were telling me lies.

ADV GCABASHE: I know I'd said that was the last question but there is one I missed when I was asking you about arriving at Gosforth Park and the car at Gosforth Park.  How did you get there, were you walking or in the other car that you were not happy with?  How did you get to Gosforth Park?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: We went to Gosforth Park by car and we took the back side of Gosforth Park, we drove past this red vehicle, parked our vehicle further down and we walked back towards the car that we had seen parking or parked somewhere.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Mr Shayi?

MR SHAYI: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Now Sir, you say during your cross-examination that when you were in Court you never disclosed the whole truth, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: And you say this was on the advice of your attorney who said that you will be given 25 years or death if you were to plead guilty, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.  That's one of the reasons yes, and the police had already harassed me.  At the time there was an Interim Constitution, there was a clause in the Constitution, if I'm not mistaken, a clause which indicated that police or anybody else does not have a right to harass or intimidate any other person.

MR SHAYI: And you are here today to disclose the whole truth?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: And you say ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the speaker's mike is off.

MR SHAYI: Thanks, Mr Chairman.
	You say that although your branch was in Zola, you were in the SDU in Meadowlands, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: Was there any danger that was caused by the hostel dwellers to the Zola residents?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Very much so.

MR SHAYI: And between Zola and Meadowlands, which is closer to the hostel?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Would you please repeat that question?

MR SHAYI: Which is closer between Zola and Meadowlands to the hostel that you were protecting the resident against?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Meadowlands is nearer to the hostel.  I agree that the people of the hostel were creating problems in Zola because these IFP members did not car whether it was nearer the hostel or not.  As long as they were assigned to carry out those duties, they would go out and carry out those duties regardless of whether the spot was nearer the hostel or not.

MR SHAYI: I'm now referring to the answers that you gave relating to the Court record on page 35, on the handbag.  You say that you weren't aware that your colleague was actually talking to this lady about the handbag, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Would you please explain, you're talking about two females, there was one female.  Would you please explain that, I don't understand quite well?

MR SHAYI: Ja, you say that your colleague who was on the left-hand side of the vehicle where the lady was seated didn't, as far as you are concerned, talk about the handbag or you never heard him talking to the lady about the handbag, that is your colleague, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As I have already explain after breaking the window, he actually broke the window after the gunfire because the window was closed all along.  For example if a gun were to be fired now each one of us would try to save themselves, that is why I'm not in a position to say whether he did speak about the handbag or not.

MR SHAYI: But if there were any valuable items in the motor vehicle, would he have had an interest in them?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: If there was anything that I had seen in the vehicle, because I'm the one who was in charge, first of all we were not after people's property, we were only forced by the situation to take the car.  Had it not been so I would not have instructed my underlings to go and burn the vehicle after its use had been fulfilled.

MR SHAYI: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHAYI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can you just indicate to me, Mr Shayi, have you managed to find the portion in the ANC Submission on SDU's?