Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MATTHEW LECORDIER: If I remember correctly, all of them.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just very briefly, Mr Lecordier.  The Klein incident, you decided that Mr Klein would be a target.  Did you then go and get the handgrenades, or did you have them while you were doing your recce work?  When did you get the handgrenades that you used in that attack?  After you had established your target or prior to that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think it was before I established the target.

CHAIRPERSON: So how long would you have been in possession of those handgrenades then?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm not too sure of how long, but I'd say about a week.

CHAIRPERSON: How many handgrenades did you get?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Two.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you keep them?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I had kept them and then I had given them to Allan Pearce to keep.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to the target on the night in question, were the lights out in the house?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, they were.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to the bedroom, were the curtains drawn?  If there were any curtains at all.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is, Mr Chairman, we never go right up to the bedroom window.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well you went- because we know that you threw your handgrenades through the window, was the curtain - did it have any curtains at the window?  If so, were they drawn?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't remember if the curtains were drawn or not.

CHAIRPERSON: How far away were you from the window when you threw the grenade, more-or-less?  If you can just indicate a distance perhaps in this room here.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'd say from where I'm sitting to where the cameraman is.

CHAIRPERSON: About five paces, six paces?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: About that distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why the other handgrenade didn't hit the window or go through the window?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't answer that, Judge, because Antonio had thrown the other handgrenade.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where it blew up, did it hit the wall or the garden or miss the house entirely and go into the next-door neighbour's yard or what?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: From what I'd heard it landed outside of the house, Mr Klein's premises.

CHAIRPERSON: In the garden on the ground?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: In the garden.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Any question arising?

MR DEHAL: Just one minor aspect, thank you.
	Mr Lecordier, when you decided that you did not want to be under the Security Police' influence in Cape Town and you say you did not want to assist in infiltrating the Unions etc., you had just escaped, in terms of your written statement.  Did you say to them you did not want to have anything further to do with them, or did you simply just disappear into nothing so that they could not trace you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not tell them that I did not want to have anything further to do with them, I just thought it's best if I keep quiet and take myself out of Cape Town.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kooverjee?

MS KOOVERJEE: None thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

UNKNOWN: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lecordier, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I was hoping to actually trace Mr Gordon Webster by now.  As I said earlier in chambers, I was given a message from a friend of his that he may possibly be here. I don't see him present in the hall.  I have nothing further to present at this stage.  Perhaps it may be a convenient time now to adjourn till tomorrow morning so that if he does arrive at the hall I could then take up the matter further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because I think we don't want to wait indefinitely for something that might not occur.  How can you establish what's going to happen?

MR DEHAL: I think that's a fair question and surely we'll have to wait only until about 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.  If he doesn't arrive by ten, then I'll propose to place on record what he has told me thusfar.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know if evidence of that nature can be accepted.

MR DEHAL: Not in the form of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: It would clearly be hearsay.

MR DEHAL: Indeed, yes.  He's not an applicant, he's purely subpoenaed as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And what is the position regarding the other applicant, Mr Derek McBride?

MR DEHAL: Ms Kooverjee represents Mr Derek McBride, and I think she would tell you in due course.  Perhaps what I can tell you is that Antonio du Preez was also on notice to arrive here.  He has not arrived.  He called me on the first day the TRC hearings began and he told me that he was ill at home, he told me that he was having difficulty in obtaining leave to avail himself here at these hearings.  He asked me to place on record that he confirms, accepts the applicants' applications for amnesty, he does not oppose them and that the versions of McBride, Apelgren etc., he is conformity with.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is there anything else?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, insofar as Welile Khumalo is concerned, his also not in a position to avail himself here at these proceedings and has asked me to place on record that he does not oppose the applications for amnesty and confirms the correctness of what the various applicants are saying insofar as they relate to him.  That is all actually.  That would sum up the applicants I represent and the witnesses, except for Gordon Webster in regard to whom as I've said, if you do not mind, we could wait till 10 o'clock tomorrow.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kooverjee.

MS KOOVERJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Insofar as Mr Derek McBride is concerned, he's instructed me that he will withdraw his application for amnesty.  That is the position, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Does anybody wish to say anything further?  We've heard now that Mr Dehal's asked at this stage for an adjournment until tomorrow morning.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: No, I have nothing to say except that the statements made, until we know whether Mr Gordon Webster gives evidence or doesn't, doesn't take us any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  So is the position relating to person who you represent who may wish to make a statement or whatever, that they would prefer to do it after the conclusion of any evidence led by the applicants?

MR RICHARD: After the applicants' evidence is concluded.  It may be that Mrs Klein would like to give evidence this afternoon, but let me ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps you can find out and then we might be able to save some time.  We can take a short five minute adjournment and then if you could just let us know, Mr Richard, if she wishes to make a statement or give evidence.  Whatever the position, we can proceed.  If not, if you'd prefer to do it after the applicants have closed their case as it were, if I can use that terminology, then we'll just come back and adjourn the matter until tomorrow morning.  But we'll take a five minute break at this stage for you to take instructions on that point.  Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
NO FURTHER RECORDING