Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: But you knew him to be an ANC member, is that not correct?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo had issued an order to John Radebe that he should go and apprehend you and Hapile, wherever they saw you.  Do you have any comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know.  I was not present when an order was made.

MS MOLOISANE: So you are not in a position to can dispute that whatever John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi or Abraham Mkhwanazi did on that particular day was in execution of orders that had already been issued, not so?  You are not in a position to ...(indistinct).

ELSIE MOKOENA: I would not have a reason to dispute that.

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is that there was in fact an order that had been issued by comrade Mhlongo, that you and Hapile be apprehended wherever you were to be seen, and that you should be killed, as you were classified as ...(indistinct).

ELSIE MOKOENA: I don't know, I don't know whether Mabusa said, let me say I don't know.

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is why ...(intervention).

MR LAX: She's answered this already.  Please, you're going over it for the third time now.

MS MOLOISANE: I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Moloisane.  Ms Thabethe do you have any re-examination emanating from Ms Moloisane's questioning?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS THABETHE: When Skosana came to your house was it before of after the enquiry in 1992?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was after.

MS THABETHE: Would you say therefore he knew about the decision that was reached at the enquiry?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He knew very well.

MS THABETHE: Why do you think he knew?

ELSIE MOKOENA: When a decision was taken about ourselves the house was full.

MS THABETHE: Was he there?  Did you see him there?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: When he came to your house, that is Mr Skosana, did he say why he wanted you and your boyfriend?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He refused to advise reasons.

MS THABETHE: Is it also true that when you were called to the enquiry you were found not guilty?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: And it's also you evidence that, earlier on that you were told to go on as living, and to live as normal?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe I am going to disallow your line of re-examination.  You are supposed to re-examine on anything that came out as a result of Ms Moloisane's questioning.  I have allowed you already a great amount of latitude.  You are questioning Ms Mokoena on issues that have long been traversed.  	With regard to when Skosana came to her house, whether it was before or after, her, Ms Mokoena's evidence has been crystal clear on that issue.  Mr Skosana came in June 1992, and the enquiry took place in March 1992.  Nothing new came out during Ms Moloisane's cross-examination.  I will not allow this line of re-examination.  If you still have anything new that has come out as a result of Ms Moloisane's cross-examination, proceed to do so.  Do not repeat the ground that has already been traversed.

MS THABETHE: As the Chair pleases, I am indebted to you.  One last question.  Was Mabusa present at the enquiry in 1992?

CHAIRPERSON: The enquiry was not in 1992 according to Ms Mokoena's evidence.  That enquiry took place in March 1992 and yes, the house was full and Mr Skosana was amongst those.

MS THABETHE: I said Mr Mabusa Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.  You may proceed to answer Ms Mokoena, that question.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

ELSIE MOKOENA: I did not see Mabusa.

CHAIRPERSON: Save for the correction that the enquiry on your testimony took place in March 1992, is it not so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: That was my last question Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Mr Lax do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena?

MR LAX: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mokoena we wish to thank you for having had the courage to come and give your testimony to us after what you have been through.  We hope you will be present during the remainder of the proceedings, because it is in your interests, and we hope this process will go a long way in trying to address the pain that we know you were subjected to.  We thank you very much ma'am.  We also appreciate the courage that you have shown during your viva voce evidence.  We know it is not an easy thing for a person who has been subjected to any kind of atrocity that we have to deal with as an Amnesty Committee, to be able to contain herself when she gives evidence, because the mere giving of evidence revives the terrible memories, that I am sure not only you but our country would like to have as a closed page.  We thank you.  You may step down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you had earlier on indicated that the relatives of Ms Hapile Ndumo also wanted to testify in respect of the incident that we are currently dealing with.  Is that still your intention, and if so, who do you wish to call?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, it was my instruction that they want to, the mother wants to says something to the Committee members and to the public, so I would proceed to call her, and in the meantime, can I be excused for two minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we excuse you, do you feel this would be an appropriate time to adjourn, or would you prefer that she comes in and gives her testimony before we can adjourn for lunch?

MS THABETHE: I would prefer if she gives testimony before we adjourn for lunch.  I will be strictly two minutes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a two minute adjournment.  I hope everyone has his or her watch on to time Ms Thabethe.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, your two minutes having long expired I need you to proceed.  You are going to call one of the parents of Ms Hapile Ndumo, the deceased.

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair.  I'll proceed to call Mrs Ndumo, who wants to say something to the Committee and to the public.  Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to lead her?

MS THABETHE: Yes I do.

MRS NDUMO: Do I have to take an oath?

CHAIRPERSON: It was explained that you'd like to say something to us, and we want to take an oath for that.  And because you are the mother to the deceased, we saw it necessary to give you this opportunity and tell us what is in your heart.  We now give you this opportunity.

MRS NDUMO: I wanted to tell this Committee how I found the body of my child.  She was shot four times and the letters of Inkatha were cut into her thigh, and she was dragged from where, from the original place of killing.  I want to tell this Committee that I'm deeply hurt at the loss of my child.  She would be working for me today, doing everything.  I am old.  She is dead.  They are here seeking amnesty.  I do not forgive someone who wronged me.  I do not forgive anyone, because by forgiving them I would be sending a message of, yes, you helped me by killing my daughter.  I do not have any forgiveness.  I don't have anyone to draw water for me.  I don't have anyone to iron for me.  And to come here and say thank you, you killed my daughter, no ways.  I have nothing further to say.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you for your words and they clearly indicate how deeply you hurt.  We want to tell you that the process that we are busy with, it's a process that is trying to see whether the people who killed had a political motive.  If we discover that they killed because of politics, under the Act then we are obliged to give them amnesty.  That's what we can do as a Committee.  And we cannot force people who lost their loved ones to forgive.  It has to come from them.  I do understand what you are saying, and we thank you.