Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: He gave me an order to go to Brakpan and look for guns in Brakpan, that is myself and other members of my unit.  He was already from that place and he saw that it was fit for us to go there and seek those guns.

CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about January 1994?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed then Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now as a follow up, you said it was in January 1994 and did he tell you what was the purpose of securing you the arms from that house, that home?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: He told us that the organisation of the movement wanted to have some arms and ammunition.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you, Mr Hlelesi, at that time were you watching something like - did you listen to radios and T.V's, watch T.V. and read newspapers?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: No that is not correct, I never read newspapers.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You never watched T.V.?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was pretty scarce that I watched T.V.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Listened to radio?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I used to listen to music programmes, not with regard to news bulletins or any current affairs.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, did you at that time aware that everybody was preparing for elections, were you aware at that time?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes I had got wind of that, that people were preparing themselves for the coming elections.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you also aware that PAC was also preparing for elections?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Just to clarify that issue I knew about that but I didn't have any deep clarity with regard to that aspect.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that on the 16th January 1994 PAC  suspended the armed struggle?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I did not know that at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you then Mr Hlelesi, you were given this order in January by Mr Mogaga, can you tell the Committee why did it take you so long to implement or to execute the order, January, February, March, April, May, on the fourth month which is the 6th May, why did it take you so long to implement the - to execute the order?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: My commander Moses Mogagi said that we should take our time to execute this order.  Even at that time we had not yet been able to obtain arms and ammunition to be used for the particular operation so we first had to obtain arms and ammunition but he did point out that we had to execute the order.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you executed the order on the 6th May?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I will ask the same question I have asked you to clarify to the Committee, at that time it was 21 days before the date of the election, were you aware what was happening in the country at that time, the mood, that people were preparing, gearing themselves to vote, the political parties had registered and their supporters were canvassing for election?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes that is correct, people were preparing themselves for the imminent elections but during that very same time there was a spate of bombings that took place as well as members of the AWB who were conducting a reign of terror.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you at that stage enquire from Mr Mogaga that now is - at that stage was almost before the election was the position of PAC, PAC is still in involved with the armed struggle, did you ask him about that?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: No, at the time he was not present for me to have been able to ask him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  How many were you for this operation?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: There were five of us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you all members of PAC or were there any people who were not members of PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Four were members of PAC but the one wasn't.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was not a member of PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was Phineas.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What type of weapons were you armed with when you went there?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was shotguns or pistols, it's not clear.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was Mr Mogaga aware that when you go to this operation there will be a person who is not a member of PAC or supporter of PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes he was aware, we particularly asked him because we did not have transport to ferry us to the place and we required a person who had a car to take us to the particular place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was commanding this operation?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I did not hear your question could you please repeat?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was commanding this particular operation you are applying amnesty for?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Mr Mogaga is the one who issued the orders and I could say he was our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You've already told the Committee that he was not there, I'm asking on this particular operation when you went to this home in Brakpan, who was commanding?  You said you were five of you, was Mr Mogaga present?  Was he present?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was Able.

CHAIRPERSON: Able who?  What's Able's surname?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I do not know his surname.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who did the reconnaissance of the place?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Mr Morapapa went there first and he came back and went there again together with Able and thereafter it was myself, us and Able who went there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you be specific so that the Committee, all of us who were not there, we want to know what actually happened.  When was it that Morapapa went there, was it in January or February or March or April, when did you also go there, can you throw some light?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: He went during the month of December, I think the year was 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, when did you go there yourself before you went to ...[indistinct] the mission?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: We went during the month of January.  I think it was towards the end of January but I'm not sure about the date.  Just to go and reconnaise the place before the operation itself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] went there again?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes we did go there thereafter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When was that?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was a day before the 6th May.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell - during the reconnaissance what did you observe there in the house?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: When we went there we wanted to check as to whether it was a busy area and we needed to look at the area in order for us to be able to plan ahead.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you made the reconnaissance then, can you take us through what were the instructions, what was going to be your role when you arrived there, tell the Committee what part did you take and Able and others?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Are you referring to the 6th?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The day of the incident.