Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-15

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Ma'am, I understand you now.  In answer to your question, as guerillas, soldiers, we abide by the 15 points of attention, right, (indistinct) of a political fight.
	Right, so under those 15 points of attention, each and every member of APLA is supposed to know this 15 points well.  It is not, we were not determined to hit the target because we were obliged or forced to, we were also interested and we also wanted to do or to carry out this operation, according to this 15 points.
	Each and everything we did, we did it by those rules, not just that we were forced to do this, no.

ADV GCABASHE: You have not answered my question, in fact you misunderstood the context of the question, and I would like to repeat it just to get clarity on this point.
	We have heard you on being forced and not being forced, we have understood that point as a Committee, that you are voluntary people in this Army.
	It has got nothing to do with forcing, it has got more to do with whether you were making your own decision to continue with the mission in circumstances where your superiors had said abandon it.  I just want clarity on this.
	Were you making your own decision to continue on a mission you had been told to abandon or were you continuing because it was the plan as originally conceived by your superiors, that is all?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, we continued this operation because we wanted to carry it out.
	Not because the Commander would make the decisions for us.  I was a Unit Commander, the plans to execute the operation, I had them.  We had to make sure that they are carried out accordingly.  We were not forced, that is right.
	I hope I have answered you.

MR LAX: Really, my colleague is asking this question of you and you keep missing the point.
	The point isn't that you were forced to do it or that you did it willingly.  In the light of your command to retreat and that came from a higher Officer, retreat.  Did that command mean you must abandon the operation or did it mean that you should leave the area only and at some later stage, continue with the operation.  Let's clear that up first.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I am going to answer this question yet again.  The comrades came with a report after they went to the phones, that comrade Ntintili had been arrested and we were supposed to retreat from the area that we were staying in.
	He also knows the place.  Fortunately we got information that one of the comrades had accommodation.  The command was not to retreat totally and go back to the Transkei, we were supposed to just retreat or leave the place at which the comrade had been arrested from.
	We did not have a problem, because comrade Dizi was from around the area.  As part of the Unit, the comrade volunteered and said that he had relatives where we could be accommodated.
	That is the answer.  I hope I have answered you well.

MR LAX: You have.  You see, you also then went on to say that you then reported this to your senior Commander.  When did you do that and how did you do that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What matter exactly?

MR LAX: The fact that you found alternative accommodation and you had been able to safely retreat.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: After we got the accommodation from comrade Lo from Mdantsane.

MR LAX: Yes, we know that.  I am asking you about after that.  You said that you reported to your seniors this new development that you were safe, you weren't coming back to the Transkei, that is what you said.
	The question is how did you report to, and when did you do that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: My contact in Transkei was Scomiso.  The comrade that I liaised with was Scomiso.  We would stipulate certain times at which we would contact each other.  I got him, he then said that I must go to the phone and report the whole matter.
	They wanted to know, they are the ones who told the other comrades that comrade Ntintili had been arrested, who told them that we are in a specific place in Mdantsane where comrade Nqeba provided accommodation.
	That was all well and good to them.

MR LAX: You are confusing two different incidents.  You have already told us about the fact that you sent Lungisa and Nqeba to go and contact comrade Scomiso.
	After you had retreated and you had found a new place at Lo's, you reported that again.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Please listen carefully sir.  The comrades, I gave them instructions to go and report to comrade (indistinct).  Lungisa accompanied comrade Nqeba to report that we had received the arms.

MR LAX: You are not listening to me.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: You are talking about two different issues, what is it exactly that you don't understand now.

MR LAX: It isn't me that doesn't understand, you are not listening to the question.  The question is about the second report, not the first report.
	I thought we had made that clear.  Just listen and stop talking for a minute, just listen and maybe we will get through this a lot more quickly.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Lax, can I just come in and help here?  I am listening to both the English and Xhosa version of the proceedings.  I think I understand what the witness is saying.
	It was reported to Scomiso that the arms had been secured, and those who were in contact with Scomiso were told by Scomiso that Ntintili had been arrested.
	It is then that they decided to leave the Mqelo area to go to Mdantsane.  They feared that they could be arrested in the Mqelo area.  Maybe they thought, he didn't say that explicitly, maybe they thought that Ntintili could be beaten up and he could disclose where they are, and I think that is the only contact with Scomiso he had mentioned so far.
	Maybe he can confirm it, I think I follow what he is saying.

MR LAX: If I could just explain what I am asking about.  My understanding of your evidence after that, everything my colleague has spoken about is that you then found this place at Lo's, and I thought your evidence and I distinctly heard it, was that you then reported back to Scomiso a second time to say that you were now safe, you had a new place at Lo's and could you carry on with this operation or not?  That is what I am talking about.  Did that happen or didn't it, the second report?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I am the person who reported, not all of us.  Whilst we were staying at comrade Lo's place, I decided to get the phone, I found Scomiso, I reported to him that I received information from the other comrades that we must retreat from the area because comrade Ntintili had been arrested.
	About the receiving of arms and the accommodation, I spoke of that.  I hope I have answered you.

MR LAX: You have finally answered me, and the issue then is did he give you the command to continue with the operation at that stage, just a simple yes or no would suffice.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: In answer to that question, yes, he did give us a command that we should carry on with the operation.  The fact that we got other accommodation, also reflected or showed that we could continue with the operation.  Yes, he did give us the order.

MR LAX: Thank you, that is great, you have been very helpful.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.