Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not say anything, there was no time for conversations really, we were in a hurry.

MR BERGER: Did you try to stop him?  The child was between you and him, he was behind the child, you were in front of the child, you saw him lift up the spear, did you try and stop him from stabbing the child?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I was talking to the child on my knees, I only heard the child crying and when I raised my head I saw this spear being pulled from the child.

MR BERGER: You actually saw the spear being pulled out of the child by Sthembiso Kubeka?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you go on
"I stabbed another person, a man, with a spear in the vicinity of Shlube Street.  I don't know what happened to that person.  We then left the township and returned to the hostel."

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: According to your statement you stabbed two people, according to your evidence before this Committee you say you stabbed about four people, why didn't you mention the other two in your statement?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Maybe the person who was interpreting did not get me well.  I said, when we left the house in which we found the child, we found other people who were fleeing and we pursued them right into a certain house with a shack.  We opened the shack and we stabbed them inside the shack.  I don't know whether this is not written there.

MR BERGER: How many people did you stab in Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I estimated them to be four or five.

MR BERGER: Were you involved in any incident of violence concerning the people of Boipatong, before the attack of the 17th of June 1992?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: So the people of Boipatong had not done anything to you personally, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: I am right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: ...(no English translation).

MR LAX: We're not getting any interpretation but he in fact saying that Mr Berger's speaking the truth.

INTERPRETER: I'm trying to rectify a mistake on the part of the applicant.

MR LAX: Thank you.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR BERGER: And you had no family living in Boipatong, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So what then was your motive in participating in the attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: My motive was that the people from Boipatong had already killed our people and I too was not free to go to Boipatong to the shops.

MR BERGER: Are you able to point or to give the name of any person who was killed in Boipatong between January and June?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, is it not common cause that people were killed in Boipatong and that was common knowledge to the people of Kwamadala?

MR BERGER: It's common cause, Advocate Sigodi, that a person was killed in Boipatong in January of 1992 and again on the 13th of June 1992.

ADV SIGODI: And that was common knowledge.  I mean, isn't that evidence that we've been hearing so far, in that the people in Kwamadala hostel could not go to Boipatong, and there was this tension between the Kwamadala hostel ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: If it's as I've stated, yes, that is common cause.

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

MR BERGER: But we've been hearing evidence about people being killed every day, day by day and that is definitely not common cause.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Advocate Sigodi is trying to put across to you is that there is no ...(indistinct), we now know, that two people were killed just shortly before the attack.  We know that the residents of the hostel could not go to Boipatong, we know there was animosity, that is common cause.

MR BERGER: That is common cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have to hear more about that?  The record speaks for itself in this regard.

MR BERGER: I take your point, Chairperson.
	So when you said in your evidence-in-chief:
"Even our relatives there were harassed."
... you were not speaking about your relatives, am I
right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the evidence from one of your co-applicants, that the real problems were in townships such as Sharpeville and Sebokeng and that Boipatong was chosen as a target for the attack because it was closer, in fact very close to Kwamadala hostel, in stead of Sharpeville or Boipatong?  Do you agree with that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, because Boipatong was nearer.

MR BERGER: When you say that your job was to stab the people, who gave you that job?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I took it upon myself.  Isn't it I had a spear?

MR BERGER: You were asked a question about who you saw firing and you answered that there were two people whom you saw, the one was Damarra and the other one was Themba Mabote, am I correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Why is it that every time an applicant is asked: "Who did you see shooting?", the answer is always Damarra Chonco and Themba Mabote?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: As far as I have concerned, I am talking about a person that I saw shooting.  I saw this personally, this is not a hearsay.  I saw Themba Mabote shooting.  I was with him right inside the house.

MR BERGER: You've all been sitting here every day listening to the evidence, that you've moulded your versions so that they all say the same thing, you all say the same thing about what happened in Boipatong, who you saw shooting, haven't you discussed it with your co-applicants?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, we did not discuss this at all.  I am talking here about people that I accompanied, people that I saw shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, is that a fair statement to put to this witness, if you have regard to his affidavit which was made before this hearing started, the further particulars?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it's not only in this hearing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) suggesting to him is that he's mentioning these two people because he's been sitting here, and yet is appears in his statement and it also appears in his affidavit.

MR BERGER: And it also appears in the statements and affidavits of his co-applicants.  It's not only that sitting here, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Then you must put that specific point to him.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you and your co-applicants have conspired to put as far as possible a consistent version before this Committee, both in your applications and in your evidence?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is not the truth.

MR BERGER: Have you discussed your version at any stage with any of your co-applicants?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Not at all.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that the Keswa that you referred to at page 222 is indeed Mr Victor Keswa?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I did say that is an older man whose name Xhoslele Zingene from Natal.

MR BERGER: Mr Dlamini, if there had been military vehicles or police vehicles in Boipatong during the attack, would you have seen them?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: You would not have missed them?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when you left Boipatong after the attack, is it correct that you congregated in the field outside Boipatong, between Boipatong and the main road, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, we did not gather on our way out, we were following one another.  We were walking hastily in groups, one group was ahead of another etc., etc.

MR BERGER: Were you with Themba Mabote when you left Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, he was no longer with me.

MR BERGER: Were you at the front of the attackers leaving Boipatong, were you in the middle or were you one of the last stragglers to leave Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I was in the middle.