Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-10

MR FORTUIN: Sir, it is also very clear that you know exactly when the applicant, Mr Maduna became a member of the PAC because you clearly state it was 1991, June and you also say you know this because you had a look at the data of the Organisation, is that correct?  The data base?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, that is correct.  Each and every year you've got to take a look at the data base.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  When were you asked to do a search as to whether Mr Maduna was a member of the PAC or not?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I was not requested, I was doing that because it was the end of the year, we wanted to check the members of the Organisation.

MR FORTUIN: And do you know how many members joined the Organisation in 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I responded to that question that I cannot estimate, not unless I have a data base in front of me.

MR FORTUIN: Is it possible that you would be able to bring the data base to the Commission, if you are asked?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: If that was required, I could have brought it here.

MR FORTUIN: When you were asked to come and testify today, was it explained to you that the reason why you must come and testify today was to the membership of Mr Maduna, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I was requested this morning at work, I didn't even know that I was to come here.  I am from work now.  They requested me from my work to come here as a person who was the then Chairperson of the Branch.

MR FORTUIN: Do you know when you went through the data base, when was that, the end of last year you say?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Firstly, PAC's year ends in March.  Each and every April is the beginning of our new year, that is why we have to check on membership.

MR FORTUIN: And you are quite sure, when you looked in March of this year, you saw that Mr Maduna became a member in June 1991, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, we look at all members.  Those who have renewed and those who have not.  Starting from 1991 when we started that Branch up to now, to check whether all our members are still renewing their membership and those who have failed to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the real question is that you last checked this in April this year, is that when you checked whether Mr Maduna was a member?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I checked all the members who have renewed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I am just saying that you checked this in April, that is the question?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, in April.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR FORTUIN: Do you know where the data base or the records of your members of the Branch here in Cape Town, is kept?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Our data base when we have done and finished, we send it to our Regional Office who sends it to the National Office.
	We only are left with our roll book.  The data base when finished, is sent to the Regional Office.

MR FORTUIN: And you are quite sure that the application forms and details and the information regarding Mr Maduna was sent to the National Office.  Where is your National Office?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The PAC National Office is in Johannesburg.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  Now could you explain why - or let me rather rephrase the question, and you are sure all the details of the membership of Mr Maduna was recorded in the Cape Town Region and from the Cape Town Region all the details were sent to the National Office, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: It is the same with all members of the PAC.

MR FORTUIN: Now, excuse me sir, can you explain a letter that was handed in on Tuesday, it comes from your Organisation, it is signed by Mr Louis Ngwenya and it says and maybe if my colleague can just, if she still has a copy of the  letter of the PAC, just ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to Exhibit A?

MR FORTUIN: That is correct, and it reads the Eastern Cape Provincial Executive Council has managed to retrieve from its files records confirming his party membership and as such assured me that he was a fully complacent member of the party.
	Can you explain how it ends up that his membership and his details is in the Eastern Cape?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Firstly, as Mr Maduna is a member of the Task Force, any member of the Task Force in terms of the Organisation, joins and does not have a Branch.

MR FORTUIN: You see sir, you have testified he became a member in 1991 in the Western Cape and I specifically asked you where is the details, where is his records, where is his membership and you said it is in the Western Cape and from here, it goes to the National Office, I assume in Johannesburg.  Why would the Eastern Cape now suddenly come up with his party membership?
	We are not talking about the Task Force here, we are talking about his party membership.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Mr Maduna joined here in the Western Cape at the Crossroads Branch and he was a member there.
	But in terms of his duties under the Task Force, he has no Branch.  He attaches to any Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that we are talking about his position as a Task Force, you see, you might not be able to explain this letter, because you didn't write it.
	We have a letter written by somebody called Mr Ngwenya, you see, and that letter says that the Eastern Cape Provincial Executive Council has managed to retrieve from their file, records confirming his party membership and has assured me that he was fully complacent member of the party.
	You are being asked whether you can explain how it is that they say that he was a member of the Eastern Cape?  If you don't know the answer, then you just say I don't know.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I do not know the answer to this question because I too know him as having joined at the Crossroads Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

DR TSOTSI: Do new members of the PAC, are they issued with cards, membership cards?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: As a new member, he gets a new card.  If he renews, he renews on that same card.

ADV SANDI: Do those membership cards have numbers Mr Sityodama?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, they have numbers ending with 2002.

ADV SANDI: When you checked your records in April, were you able to see what is his membership card number?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: No, I did not see the number of his membership card.

ADV SANDI: Just as a member of interest, are you able to say what your membership card number is?

CHAIRPERSON: His membership?

ADV SANDI: Your membership card number, are you able to recall that?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: No, I cannot remember it off hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: So if you checked in April and you saw that Mr Maduna became a member in June 1991, you say those records are available, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Correct, we do have a data base.

MR FORTUIN: So, if Mr Maduna wanted to prove his membership to this Commission, it was the easiest thing to do to simply ask him family members to visit the Branch where the data is kept and get a copy of, or the original of that details which you have just spoken about, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: If the Committee thinks so.

MR FORTUIN: Excuse me, that is not my question.  What I am asking you sir, is if it is so easily available that you were able to check in April and March and establish that Mr Maduna became a member in 1991, in June 1991, in fact to be specific, it means that that records are easily attainable, which means that Mr Maduna could have asked his Counsel or his family members or friends, to go to the PAC Branch and get a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it is fair to ask the question of him.  He doesn't take those decisions.  What his Counsel does or what he decides should be done, is hardly a matter for him.
	That is a matter for argument.