Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph four?

MR BOOYENS: Page four of his application ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, page four.

MR BOOYENS: ... paragraph four.  For what reason did you interrogate Mr Jones first?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your honour, from the information obtained from Titi, from Mr Titi, that Mr Jones would have been aware of this, it was appropriate first to interrogate Mr Jones.

MR BOOYENS: From the information obtained from Mr Jones were you satisfied that there had been a certain amount of agreement between his statements and that of Mr Titi?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: I believe the pamphlet distributed is self-explanatory, this is Exhibit B.  I do not believe that it is necessary to discuss that, but as you explain on the last paragraph of your application on page four, it requested the masses to show solidarity with exiles and so forth?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: By the sixth of September you were satisfied or were you satisfied that adequate and good information was available to start with the confrontation with Mr Biko?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Prior to your confrontation of Mr Biko, had there been any facts with regard to him personally made available to you.  I am not talking about his personal background, but with regard to his character, his physical strength and so on?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.  On the morning before the interrogation we had final consultations with Colonel Goosen.  He made, he brought it to our attention that Mr Biko would be a difficult chap, that from experience with prior detentions, apparently in Natal, he mentioned that during those periods of detention he offered no co-operation, that he would ignore one and that on a different occasion in King William's Town, he had beaten a security officer, a certain Mr Hattingh with a fist.

MR BOOYENS: Was this during detention in terms of security legislation?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, I believe so.

MR BOOYENS: How seriously did he beat Hattingh?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: From what we had heard, from what we were told, he broke his teeth with a fist.

MR BOOYENS: Were you given instruction, then, by Major Snyman on the morning of the sixth of September to collect him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: You, yourself, Marx and Niewoudt would then have gone to Walmer Police Station.  Is that correct?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: You collected him there?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Would that have been the first occasion on which you met Mr Biko, personally?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, it was the first occasion on which I saw him.

MR BOOYENS: In the flesh?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see photos of him before that?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Was he a large and strong man?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He was tall and was big in posture, large in posture.

MR BOOYENS: Did he appear strong to you?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, he appeared like a physically strong man to me.

MR BOOYENS: You then collected him at Walmer Police Station and brought him to the security branch in the Sanlam Building?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At the security branch offices you took him to the sixth floor?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: And he was taken to the office marked with an "X", by yourself, on Exhibit F?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: On what floor did you have your own office?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: My office had been on the fifth floor, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: To the best of your knowledge, was this particular office used only and exclusively for the purpose of interrogations?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, it was also the normal daily working office of certain other field workers.  During detentions and interrogations this office was used as an interrogation office.  Due to a lack of space or insufficient accommodation, there was no other place to use.

MR BOOYENS: So, you did not have a particular interrogation room?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Was this office sufficiently secured?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, it was sufficiently secured.

MR BOOYENS: So, you had bars in front of the window to prevent people from jumping out?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any conversation with Mr Biko from Walmer on route to the Sanlam Building?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Was he shackled and cuffed?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Hand-cuffs and leg chains?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: To the best of my memory he had hand-cuffs or his hands were cuffed.

MR BOOYENS: When you brought him to the interrogation room, were all the members of the team present?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Was the fifth applicant, Mr Beneke, a part of your team?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Was he present?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He was in one of the adjoining offices which would have been his normal place of work.

MR BOOYENS: With reference to Exhibit F, could you mention which office this would have been?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: It is the office marked "29m2".

MR BOOYENS: So, that would have been the large office as indicated to the left below on the map, on the left below the marked interrogation office?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour, we had to walk through his office to get to the interrogation office.

MR BOOYENS: Has your Lordship got it, M'Lord?  Perhaps I could just ask the witness to mark it quickly with a "Y".  The witness is marking the particular room with a "Y" on the plan.  When you walked into the interrogation office was Major Snyman with you?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did the interrogation start immediately?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: We first removed the hand-cuffs, Sergeant Niewoudt.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and who started with the interrogation?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Major Snyman introduced us to him as the interrogation team that would deal with his case and that of Peter Jones.

MR BOOYENS: I would prefer without my guiding or leading evidence from you, after you were introduced just tell us what happened next.  Discuss the interrogation and then what happened subsequently.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Upon our arrival in the office the hand-cuffs were removed from the deceased.  We were all standing at that time.  Mr Snyman introduced us to him as the interrogation team.  The deceased, without any invitation, slammed himself down on a chair.  I instructed to rise, I told him that this was our office, that we were in control of this office and that we would tell him when he was allowed to sit down.

MR BOOYENS: I apologise for interrupting you, but why this?  Why was it so important that he had to sit when you were sitting and that he had to do what you told him and so forth?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: The general principle was that we were in control of the interrogation.  As the interrogator you must maintain control.  The person being interrogated could not decide on his own what he wanted to do.

MR BOOYENS: So he sat down and you then told him that you will instruct him to, with regard to his sitting and his standing?