Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Radie, for having come here today.  I'm sorry that the audience resembles the audiences that certain political parties used to get in the past but thank you yourself for having come here.

RAYMOND JULIUS RADIE: Thank you very much Judge, Members, thank you.  Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are we now adjourning till 10 o'clock Mr Prior?  Well it is 10 o'clock.  We'll take a short adjournment for you to find out what the position is.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, this matter, could this matter just stand adjourned because there is still the, there was an indication of submissions and maybe Mr Leklapa's evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, we're still waiting to hear from him.  Have you got any further information, have you managed to achieve anything as yet or are we still hopeful?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as of today I haven't managed to get anything Mr Chairman but I am trying my level best Mr Chairman.  I would request that it be adjourned for a date to be arranged and I'll communicate with the leader of evidence, Mr Prior.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will do that because this potential witness is, I think we all agree, important not only in this case but to give a general picture of what the PAC and APLA policies were at the time.  He held a very responsible office and he could assist us and the applicants in many cases if he does come forward and give us an accurate picture of what the policy was and how it was applied.  So we will adjourn this matter to a date to be arranged.

MR PRIOR: The applications of Zukile Mbambo and Dumisani Ncamazana was scheduled to proceed today.  Mr Chairman, for the following reasons the matter cannot proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on Mr Prior, may I place on record that the same four members of the Committee or sitting and can you and the applicants' attorney place yourself on record.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Evidence Leader, Paddy Prior from Cape Town.

MR NTONGA: For Jimmy Jones or Njabane, B B Ntonga from Mdantsane.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we anticipate ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We also place on record that the attorney acting for the applicants in this matter is aware of the fact that it is being adjourned for reasons which appear later and she has been excused from attendance at this hearing.  She is fully aware of it and will given notice of when the matter recommences.

MR PRIOR: That is Advocate Sally Collett from Bisho.  She has been fully appraised, in fact the message is for the applicants please to remain for a short while.  Her secretary will be attending them and taking further information, and giving them further instructions and information.  So she is fully aware of the proceedings to be adjourned.
	Mr Chairman, firstly it was anticipated that we ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on, are those the two applicants sitting there?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they completely conversant with English?  If not, could they please be given headphones so they can understand what you are saying.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I just repeat that.  This matter of Mbambo and Ncamazana is to be adjourned.  Their advocate, Advocate Sally Collett from Bisho has been informed of the developments.  She is sending her secretary or a representative from her office to consult further with the applicants this morning and the request has been conveyed to the Correctional Services, that they remain in attendance until that business is completed.
	The reason for the adjournment is as follows:  We anticipated hearing Mr Mbambo and Ncamazana's matter today and for how long it would take to finish the evidence.  We also anticipated hearing the evidence of Mr Xolile Njabane, also known as Jimmy Jones and when the hearing was also scheduled it was also anticipated that the PAC would be either sending someone to testify or making submissions. 
	Mr Chairman, despite efforts on the part of our office to serve a subpoena on Mr Jimmy Jones, numerous attempts were made in Butterworth at his place of employment, unfortunately the subpoena wasn't served personally and no-one at the Municipal Offices was prepared to accept the subpoena on his behalf.  
	Captain Els who assisted the TRC in the area, because there was other business to be attended to, was in telephonic contact with Mr Jones.  I'm informed by Captain Els that Mr Jones was not prepared at that stage to divulge his whereabouts but wanted to consult with his attorney before giving any further information to Captain Els.  
	So the unfortunate upshot of all that was that Mr Jones wasn't served properly with a subpoena and I'm informed by Mr Ntonga this morning that his employer now refuses to release in the absence of a formal notice or subpoena from the TRC.  So it seems to be just confusion upon confusion which results in Mr Jones not being here, not being able to give evidence and not being able to be cross-examined.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand his employer is the Butterworth Municipality?

MR PRIOR: Yes, that is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust someone will inform them that their failure to release him this morning has rendered in probably thousands of rand being wasted in the costs incurred by these sittings and they could well have communicated with you or with the TRC offices in Cape Town to ascertain that he was legitimately required here.  And I think that their lack of co-operation is something to be deplored.

MR PRIOR: We will certainly convey the Committee's sentiments to the Executive Secretary, Mr Coetzee, in Cape Town and request him that he takes up the matter at high level.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ntonga is present and maybe he can add something.
	Mr Chairman, may I just request, it's rather difficult to reschedule this hearing in the absence of any firm indication whether Mr Jimmy Jones will be available in the near future.  Certainly if he is able to be served a subpoena then that will be the end of the matter.  We will simply determine a date to reconvene and serve him properly with a notice.

CHAIRPERSON: I find it difficult to understand how someone who works for the Butterworth Municipality cannot be properly served with a subpoena.  If his employers are so strict that they won't allow him to come to attend a hearing, they must surely be strict in ensuring that he is at work and if he is there he can be served.  So I think that is a matter that should also be taken up with them, that they can't treat the Committee as they appear to, the contempt they appear to do such.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood though that he did in fact consult his attorney yesterday and that an affidavit was drafted, so he is fully aware of the fact and was aware of the fact yesterday, that he is required to be here.  And now the only reason he is not here is because he says his employers won't let him be, which is a matter as I have already said, should be investigated with his employers.

MR PRIOR: Mr Ntonga is present and is in a better position or maybe in a position to shed some further light Mr Chairman.

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, I did consult with him and pointed out this to him.  But as I've already indicated to the Leader of Evidence, is that he is still prepared as long as he can be served with a subpoena because his employers now are starting, are squealing about him coming over here.   Actually I had to go out of my way to go to Butterworth to try to get something going about this application.