Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: You were obviously not involved with the actual arrest of Mr Kondile, did you hear about this though immediately that it occurred?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That he was arrested?

MR MOOSA: Yes.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't remember today, whether I heard it immediately, one day afterwards or two days afterwards.

MR MOOSA: But of course you've said that the Bloemfontein security branch was in regular and direct contact with you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOOSA: Now, it is the version of my client that Mr Kondile was not in fact arrested trying to come back into the country, he was arrested - he was in fact kidnapped from the Lesotho side.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: This is news, I don't know about that.

MR MOOSA: You have told us that you grew up in a strict Afrikaner home and your family were members of the Dutch Reformed Church.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: I take it, that includes yourself?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Later on in your testimony you told us that you had to do what is necessary and did not care about the destruction of family and family structures, in pursuing what had to be done to protect the government, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I did not say that directly but for me what was important was the total onslaught and the protection of the government of the day, as well as the white population in South Africa and therefore I was prepared.  I was trained and I was indoctrinated in this way and I thought I was right at that stage in doing so.

MR MOOSA: You say, at that stage you thought it was right?  You have actually gone to great lengths to highlight the political nature as you consider it, of your actions.  Do you still consider it right? - I think the term you use is that you were protecting Western and Christian values.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: You also said that you acted in a bona fide manner in doing what you did?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Indeed you say you acted in that fashion at all material times - that you acted in good faith at all material times?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: But Mr Du Plessis, you surely knew that the actions you executed were unlawful, they were illegal, did you not?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I knew that.

MR MOOSA: So the reality is that you would stop at nothing to achieve what you call political ends?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's is correct, I went full out to protect the government and also the people who worked for the government,  that was my task, those were my instructions.

MR MOOSA: Even if it meant killing a 23 year old and burning his body?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Unfortunately that is the truth, that was what happened and I cannot wish that away.  It's a pity that it happened and at that stage I believed that was the only alternative.

MR MOOSA: You say that was the only alternative.  Other people have spent time in detention, some as much as 27 years, was that not an alternative?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It was not.  If that was the case, he had contact with other people and he would expose the information network and we would have been cut off regarding information and that would have been catastrophic for the Eastern Cape.

MR MOOSA: Up to the time that you actually visited Mr van Rensburg, you were in fact in charge of the interrogation, is that not so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Indeed, up to that point there was no need to consult your superiors as far as the interrogation in the Eastern Cape was concerned?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't think it was necessary, but I kept them informed.  I also had to keep the headquarters informed regarding the progress of the interrogation.

MR MOOSA: And when you say: "headquarters", where is that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Firstly, in Port Elizabeth and then security headquarters in Pretoria, that is what I did.

MR MOOSA: And as far as headquarters was concerned, who in fact was the most senior person in the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Now General van Rensburg and Colonel Erasmus.

MR MOOSA: So in fact, when you consulted the superiors that you consulted when you realised there was a problem, you were consulting headquarters, not so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, if I refer to headquarters or head office, I'm referring to Pretoria and not Port Elizabeth, this was a regional office.

MR MOOSA: And being overall in charge of the interrogation at that time or up to that point, any injuries that were sustained and any assaults perpetrated on Mr Kondile, you would be ultimately responsible, not so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: From the time he arrived at Humansdorp, where in fact you first saw Mr Kondile, do you know - plus minus, how many times he been interrogated?  Was it a daily thing or were there gaps in-between, what happened?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it's impossible, I can't remember.  I think there were gaps in-between, he wasn't interrogated day and night, I can state that categorically but I don't know whether he was interrogated twice per day or whether there was a week in-between.  I can remember and I'm speculating, that he was taken to the Transkei at a certain stage or to the East London area.

MR MOOSA: When you say you're speculating, were there times when you were in fact not in charge of the interrogation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I was at all times in charge of interrogation.

MR MOOSA: And were you at all times physically present during such interrogations?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, no.

MR MOOSA: Other people would then be ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry to interrupt.
	I couldn't hear your answer.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, he was also interrogated by other people.  For example, in East London I was not present during his interrogation.

MR MOOSA: Let me get this clear, East London would be another area, not so?  You've clarified that that was on the border?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Now, I was talking about the Eastern Cape, were you always physically present when Mr Kondile was interrogated with regard to Eastern Cape? - that as I understand it, is P.E. and environments?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: So, if Mr Kondile sustained injuries - serious or otherwise, you would definitely know about that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think so, yes.

MR MOOSA: So what your evidence really is, is that Mr Kondile sustained no injuries and certainly not the injuries of the nature described by Mr Coetzee who received it in turn according to him, from Mr van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: that is correct.

MR MOOSA: And what that must mean is that Mr Coetzee is lying to us, not so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I don't know where he saw him except for up there and if he said he was seriously injured, I would say it's a lie.

MR MOOSA: Well, he certainly said that he was told the man was seriously injured but to him the man looked normal.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't comment on that.

MR MOOSA: But you are saying that he is lying in relation to what he says he heard from Mr van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is that he is lying saying that Kondile sustained serious brain damages.

MR MOOSA: Well, to be fair to Mr Coetzee, that's not what he's saying, he said he was informed of this situation by Mr van Rensburg.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the way you're putting the question you see, you're asking him whether he's contradicting Coetzee, when you know full well that Coetzee is giving evidence of what he had been told, so I don't think that takes the matter very much further.