Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

CHAIRPERSON: For the sake of the record, the Committee Members are myself, Andrew Wilson, Mr J B Sibanyoni and Mr I Lax.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Lourens de Klerk, I appear on behalf of the applicant.

MS MTANGA: My name is Lula Mtanga, Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission, and I ...

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, he must just be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to give evidence now?

MR DE KLERK: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(no English interpretation).  Give us your full names please.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: (sworn states)

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, which channel is the Zulu interpretation?

CHAIRPERSON: 3.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mzobe, is it correct that you were born on the 3rd of September 1972, in the Baboi Reserve, near Port Shepstone?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Is it true that you stayed there your whole life until you were sent to prison?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Is it also true that you want to apply for amnesty?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Can you please explain in your own words what happened in this matter.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I can.

MR DE KLERK: Proceed.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: It was on a Saturday, on the 24th of April 1993.  My aim was to go to Durban.  I took a taxi at Kwakanjaza to Port Shepstone taxi rank.  My aim was to go to Durban, but I couldn't take that taxi because I met a certain group who came and swore at me and some of them were calling me "klova", and this group of people denied me to proceed with my journey.  I ended up going back to Baboi at home.  They followed me.
	When I was in the taxi, one of them who was one of the group, grabbed me through the window, taxi window and grabbed me with my T-shirt and I lost my button there.  His name was Sandile.  The taxi left before the whole incident went bad.  They tried to follow the taxi but the taxi left.  When we arrived at Baboi, I went home.  When I was near the school I heard people swearing at me.  
	When I turned back I realised that they were the same group who promised that they were going to follow me and they continued swearing at me.  That is when I lost it and I realised they were telling the truth when they said they wanted me.  I decided to go and face them.  I had a plan.  I didn't want them to realise that I was attacking them as well and they only realised when I was closer to them.  It was near a certain school called Sister Jones.  I crossed the road because I wanted to attack them from the back.  ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can you just slow down a little bit.  I'm worried that if you're going quickly, the interpreter won't catch everything and we will also be struggling to make notes of what you're saying.  So if you could just slow down a little bit please.

MR DE KLERK: In your application you say that your motivation for this crime was political of nature, can you explain that to the Committee.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I can.

MR DE KLERK: Proceed.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: There was violence in the area.  The violence was between IFP and ANC.

MR DE KLERK: Yes?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: The people who were harassing knew that I was an IFP member and they were ANC members.  I want to clarify this thing about the organisations.  These are the people who knew me.  We grew up together and we went to the same schools, even the playgrounds, we were using the same playgrounds.  They knew me very well.  I also knew them very well.  There was no doubt of the political affiliation of each other, meaning myself and the group.  There's nothing further, except to let you know that there was violence between these two organisations.

MR DE KLERK: Were many people killed during that time, or was that the peace period?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: People were killed and there were conflicts.

MR DE KLERK: This happened quite a while ago.  While you're sitting here thinking back at that time, what can you tell the Commission?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: You mean things which were happening in the area?

MR DE KLERK: Yes, when I consulted with you, you told me if you think back maybe you would have done something else.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: There were conflicts in the area which didn't actually involve me personally, but what I'm talking about today is what I actually took hand in.

MR DE KLERK: How do you feel about the victims in this matter and the people that you killed?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I feel very bad and very sad.  It wasn't my aim, but it was the situation at the time and I believed that if I wasn't that young at that time I wouldn't have done the same.  Now I'm a grown up and I think I would have done differently and I'm asking for forgiveness.

MR DE KLERK: What is the sentence you received in court?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: 15 years.

MR DE KLERK: And what amount of time have you served up till now?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: You mean in prison?

MR DE KLERK: Yes.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I was sentenced in 1995, July.

MR DE KLERK: Lastly, were you instructed by anybody to kill these people?  Was this killing planned?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No-one sent me or instructed me, I didn't even plan this.  I did this because of the situation.  Even myself, I just did it there and then, it came there.

MR DE KLERK: Just one further aspect.  When we consulted I pointed out that the statements pertaining to what happened at the scene and it seems that according to these witnesses, certain words were talked, certain sentences were said between yourself and these people.  Do you remember anything about it?  That means the people that you killed and the boy that you grabbed, did you speak to them, say anything to them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I don't remember that.  The only thing that I remember is that I only released the boy's hand when I arrived at this group and I only said: "Yes, men".  Those were my only words.  That is when I started shooting.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Mzobe, help me understand here.  In your evidence you say you took a taxi from Kwakanjaza to Port Shepstone.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MS MTANGA: The group that insulted you, did you find them at Port Shepstone?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct, Port Shepstone taxi rank.

MS MTANGA: At the taxi rank?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: How far is the taxi rank from Shayamoya Store?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: The taxi rank that I'm referring to is in town, in Port Shepstone town.

MS MTANGA: And you lived in Kwakanjaza?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Kwakanjaza, that's my stop or my taxi stop, or bus stop.

MS MTANGA: According to the statement of Patrick Sebenza, he states that you went to them at Baboi, at Shayamoya, how far is Baboi from your area, Kwakanjaza?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Kwakanjaza is a but stop or taxi stop, Baboi is an area.  The area is named after a certain river which crosses the area, so it's Baboi.  I don't understand your question.

MS MTANGA: So will I be right ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Let me assist you.  Baboi is a big area outside of Port Shepstone town, it's in fact a semi-rural area that fell under KwaZulu.  People moved from there into town.  What he is in fact saying is that Kwakanjaza is in fact an area within Baboi, that is why he doesn't understand your question.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Lax.
	The group of people who swore at you, did you know any of those people?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I noticed someone and I knew that person and the reason I noticed him is because he came closer while I was inside the taxi and he grabbed my T-shirt.  His name is Masaka Khambule.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Bazely(?) and Mr Ndovela that you shot at amongst the group of 15 people?