Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Prince Mahlangu.  These documents that you have offered to us I will appreciate it
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if our researcher, Terry, could just take it.  Well, we will get hold of him.  He can analyse and assist us in making it available and accessible to us.  
 I have a few questions and I am sure my fellow Commissioners will also have.  I will try and be brief and, if possible, for you too to be brief in your answers.  When you talked about the history and the development of the Tribal Authority and eventually the people settling here, you made it clear that independence was the furthest from contemplation, really, by your father and virtually by the nation, by the people themselves.  Could you just refer a little to the need to get together again, to get land as opposed to independence?  In other words, without giving it political content, a homeland, but not a political independent homeland.  People from the farms, from Bophututswana.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There seems to have been a drive for that at some stage which originated from the people themselves because the Government did not initially provide in their planning for a Ndeble homeland or even Tribal Authority.

UNKNOWN: Right.  Thank you.  I would want to refer you back a bit.  That we are told and it is reflected somewhere in the history books that when our people were defeated in 1883 it was specifically said that Ndebeles should not be allowed to get grouped together again.  As a result the Government was very reluctant to make any provisions for the poor Ndebeles' to be a tribe that would come together.  As a result our people became slaves, as I have already said, on the farms and when these other ethnic groups followed this homeland system, they were accorded,
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you know, some rights which the Ndebeles did not enjoy, did not have and as a result the tribe itself stood up.  
 I remember my brother was part of the group that was moving around the farms to say, guys, for us to be able to have our own place, to enjoy the rights that are enjoyed by others we will have to contribute R3.00.  They went around, you know, collecting R3.00.  The R3.00 was for the development because I remember my grandfather bought a farm somewhere there in Weltevrede and those funds that were collected were to be used for the development for the building of schools, for the building of clinics infrastructure and everything.  So that when these people are evicted from the farms at least have a place to go to and the people who were from Bophututswana and, particularly, because of independence and the rights that they were denied.  Then the felt a need that they should also have their own place where they could practice and enjoy the rights enjoyed by others.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I want to put a follow-up question on this to you.  One of the tasks on us in terms of the Act is to look into the motives and perspectives of the different role players.  I want you, for a moment, to try and get into the shoes of the Government of the day, view it from their perspective.  I know that is very, very difficult and it is much asked.  Do not stay there, get out of the shoes again, but they were claiming, at the time, that here was a reawakening almost from a (inaudible) people coming back wanting their own homeland and it is against the background of their own thinking that all nations want to be independent.  Now suddenly people are demanding an acknowledgement like some of the other traditional
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authorities or tribal authorities that were not acknowledged, Ndebele was not acknowledged, a demand for land, this reawakening and there from the, could this have been read as, but this is really a support for our policy which we did not even recognise in the beginning?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do agree with you there.  If I were in the shoes of the Government and because the Government was very obsessed about this policy of theirs, I would think that way that these people were supporting our idea of homeland system, but they forgot a very, very important element there.  That these people were rallying and paying allegiance to their traditional leader and these people themselves, as I have already said, had confidence in their traditional leaders because they were able to gather there to discuss, deliberate and debate about whatever issue that was confronting them.  It would be the people who would say to the King this is what we would want you to do not the other way round.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  May I move to your role and your direct role.  It appears that you really assumed a leadership role especially with the youth during the years, and I am talking, you mentioned 1984 through 1988 especially.  There were many references that we came across that you, indeed, took a leading role with Timothy Skosana.  Some people even claimed, and especially the Imbokhoto members claimed, that acts of necklacing, of killing, of murders, could be retraced to yourself and others.  Now these are allegations that we have to deal with.  We will further have during the course of the day two witnesses that in their statements, at least, have implicated you and you will get copies of the statements in due course to respond,
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but seeing that this will be coming up today, I think it is only fair to make reference to that while you are in a position to give evidence.  The name Mthimunye, is that a name that rings a bell with you?

UNKNOWN: Mthimunye.

CHAIRPERSON: Mthimunye.  There is claim that a certain Richard Skosana, businessman, was necklaced and that his house and fruit shop was burnt down in two separate incidences and there is reference to yourself, Mabangwa Mahlangu.  I am just mentioning it.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you do not have to go into any detail.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The idea is, but I want to mention it to you.  If you want to make a statement you can do so and the second reference will be a reference by a Mrs Sithole to yourself and a Mr Majonie Mahlangu, Majonie.  Where Majonie Mahlangu came to her saying that he was looking for her husband at your instance, that the husband left then with this Majonie Mahlangu and was later found dead at Tabane.  There were many allegations of necklacing, of your being involved in the leadership and generally the commanding of, commandeering of Putco buses for that meeting of, for the funeral between the 12th and the 14th of May.  Could you tell us a little about the activities of the youth?  You did mention in your statement that, I wrote down the words here, that we defeated Imbokhoto, you said at some stage.  Can you talk a little about that?  What was the programme?