Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: You initially proceeded to the back of the combi in a western direction, back to Botswana.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

ADV DE JAGER: You were running in the road then. And then you turned off the road to the river bed?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true, that's in the middle of the river. And in turning to the middle of the river were you protected by the bush then?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No I was not inside the bush area yet.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to asking you something about this, relating to the question as to when the rehearsal was made.  What time of the day was the rehearsal made, rehearsing as to how you should escape from the combi and so on?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I'm not mistaken it was in the afternoon around 4 o'clock  or 3  o'clock.  I'm not quite sure about the exact time.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you sure that it was in the afternoon. You may not be sure about the hour but are you sure that it was in the afternoon?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes it was in the afternoon from 2 o'clock.  Maybe from 2 o'clock up to four o'clock, up to there in the middle those times.

ADV DE JAGER: How far is this from the Botswana border?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Approximately 15 km.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sehlwana, when did you get to Alldays, was it on the morning of the 9th or was it on the morning of the 8th?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: May you please remind me because I don't remember the date.

SISI KHAMPEPE: This incident happened on the 10th of July.  Now the rehearsal took place on the 9th of July.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes the demonstration was done on the 9th.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When had you in fact arrived at Alldays. You put up at a farm, was that on the evening of the 8th or the 9th after the rehearsal?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I slept on the night of the 9th at that farm then on the 10th I went to fetch those people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you actually came from Pietersburg to Alldays on the 9th.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And immediately after you had got to Alldays you went to the place where the rehearsals took place.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What is the sequence of events?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: We left Pietersburg for Alldays.  I don't remember exactly what time we arrived there, then I went together with the two people in the evening for the demonstration.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I thought you said it was during the day.  You're not confusing yourself?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The interpreter has made a mistake by saying in the evening, I said it was during the afternoon.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you sprang from the combi on the day of the incident, on the 10th.  You actually ran away from the combi to the westerly direction and somebody shouted inside the combi and said, where are you going? How long after the shouting were you warned by a security policeman that you were by the security policeman that you were actually going in the wrong direction?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I'm talking about seconds.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That time did you smell any tear gas.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I smelt tear gas immediately when I alighted from the combi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was that before you were alerted by one the security policemen that you were going in the wrong direction?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Sorry I didn't understand your question correctly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you started to smell the tear gas, did you smell the tear gas before you were warned by the security police that you were going in the wrong direction or was it after that warning?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I think it's before I heard that voice, if I'm not mistaken I think it is before.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now the other thing which I just wanted to clear with you, for how long did the security police interrogate the injured cadre whilst you were there?  Was it a question of a few seconds? A few minutes?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I'm not mistaken I think it might be about 10 minutes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ten minutes might be quite a substantial time.  Is your approximation correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I'm not quite sure about the duration.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What has been said by the person who was questioning the injured cadre, did you hear what it was? What was the interrogation all about?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The time I arrived I began to hear when they said to him, where are you from and where are you going?  I don't know as to whether he was asked questions before I arrived on the scene.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are saying whilst you were there the interrogation lasted for approximately 10 minutes?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I'm not quite sure about the duration, it might be plus or minus five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms -.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman may I just put two questions?  Mr Sehlwana there's not, there are two issues rather? Did the shooting which took place on that day from the outside towards the combi, did that shooting start before or after you heard this warning in Afrikaans that you were running in the wrong direction?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I remember well, the time when they were talking about me taking the wrong direction, the shooting had not yet started.  If I'm not mistaken.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry I didn't hear the translation.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I'm not mistaken the shooting started after, but I'm not sure.

ADV DE JAGER: Could the interpreter kindly repeat the translation?

SISI KHAMPEPE: If I'm not mistaken the shooting started after the voice which warned me I'm taking the wrong direction.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR BLACK: During the course of the interrogation of the wounded MK soldier, was Mr Erwee present?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't remember well.

MR BLACK: Now I notice from your application that you left the police in February of 1990, is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

MR BLACK: Now have you any grudges against any of these people who you say were present at the rehearsal and who conducted this operation?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't have a grudge against them.

MR BLACK: Is there any reason for you to tell any untruths about Mr Fuchs or what took place at the shooting of this injured soldier?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: May you please repeat your question.

MR BLACK: Is there any reason or did you have any reason whatsoever for you to tell any untruths about the activities of Mr Fuchs and the shooting of this injured soldier.  Have you any reason not to tell the truth or to tell lies about Mr Fuchs?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I'm here to tell the truth.

MR BLACK: I have no further questions Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Black, Mr Visser.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman perhaps on the last issue there is perhaps something that the Committee should be aware of.  May I just put one point to the witness.  After you left the police in February 1990, did you ever thereafter apply to become a policeman again?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes that's true.

ADV VISSER: And you were turned down.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes that's true.

ADV VISSER: Why?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They didn't tell me the reason why. They just say they regret not to employ me again.

ADV VISSER: You weren't the subject of police investigations?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The investigations were completed by that time.

ADV VISSER: What was the investigation about?

CHAIRPERSON: Why should he tell us that?

ADV VISSER: Well Mr Chairman the point now was made that he bears no grudge and well, I will leave it Mr Chairman, in fact...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I was wanting, I mean I don't understand why we should open a catalogue of possible criminal activities on the part of an applicant in respect of which he hasn't made an application for amnesty but if there is an explanation for that we should understand it.