Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-20

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Yesterday we concluded the testimony of Mr De Kock and Mr Nortje.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, it is Jansen on record, for applicant Ras.  Similarly we ask permission to call Mr Ras as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, before we do that, can we just ask Mr Muller to place himself on record.

MR MULLER: Thank you Mr Chairman, the name is Muller, initials G.C. on behalf of Mr Nieuwoudt.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Muller.

MARTINUS RAS: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman and Honourable Committee members, you will notice in front of you some documents have been handed out which the top or the first page of this document is in fact a copy of page 20 of the Bundle, and as you will notice, between page 20 of the Bundle and page 21 of the Bundle, there are certain omitted pages of the original amnesty application.  They are what is then contained on pages 2 to 6.

CHAIRPERSON: This document then is really pages 1 to 5 of the application?

MR JANSEN: Yes Mr Chairman, of the original amnesty application.  I have marked them the first page obviously 20 and then the second page 20(a) and then 20(b), (c), (d), if that is convenient, and (e).   As long as everybody just understands where they fit in, these documents don't relate to the incidents as such, the relate to the background of the applicant's career in the Police and the background to his political motivation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is everybody in possession of these extra pages?

MR JANSEN: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Jansen, you may proceed.

MR JANSEN: Thank you.  Mr Ras, just to introduce for the sake of background, regarding you and your career in the South African Police, directly after school you joined the South African Police, is that correct?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And in 1984 you were transferred from the Koevoet division in the then Southwest Africa, currently Namibia to the Vlakplaas Unit?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: The Vlakplaas Unit was also known as the Security Police's Head Office, Section C1 Unit?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes.

MR JANSEN: And sometimes it was also referred to as C10?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, previously it was C10 and later it became C1.

MR JANSEN: When you were transferred to Vlakplaas, you occupied the rank of Sergeant?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: You were a member of Vlakplaas until its dissolution in 1993?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: And at that stage you occupied the rank of Captain?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: A while after you joined Vlakplaas you also began to participate in the so-called covert operations?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: And part of these covert operations, made you involved in certain activities which led to offences?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: And this application of yours for amnesty, forms part of your general amnesty application, which has to do with approximately 18 incidents which consist of other offences?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: Once again, just to generally summarise, there are various incidents such as murder, abduction, possession of illegal weapons and so forth?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: With the exception of this brief summary of your background, you have studied your amnesty application as you submitted it originally?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Do you confirm the content thereof in so far as it is related to your background and your Police career?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: And you wish for the Committee to consider this in the evaluation of your amnesty application?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: In your amnesty application in general, with regard to all these incidents and then including the incident or incidents regarding which you will give evidence today, did you at any stage receive any financial remuneration for anyone of these incidents, with the exception of your usual salary?

MARTINUS RAS: No Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: Did you act at all times within the command structure of the Vlakplaas Unit?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Initially in 1984, the Commander of Vlakplaas was Colonel Jack Cronje, later Brigadier Jack Cronje?

MARTINUS RAS: Correct.

MR JANSEN: And he was succeeded by Colonel Eugene de Kock?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: At that stage I think he was still a Major?

MARTINUS RAS: If I recall correctly, he was a Major.

MR JANSEN: Could you perhaps sketch the general functioning of Vlakplaas for the Committee and I think that most of these things have been discussed in many other applications, which have been placed before the Committee, could you explain briefly how Vlakplaas groups functioned, what they consisted of and in which areas or regions they worked?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, we worked on a national basis, covertly and overtly.  Overtly it meant that a white group leader along with some of the ascaris, who were former ANC or PAC members, would go to various parts of the country where the former members were used to identity ANC and PAC members who were in the country and such persons would then be arrested with the objective of using such persons for evidence in court against other former members as well as the recruitment of certain of such persons which meant that after the time, they would come and work at Vlakplaas.  The covert aspect involved cross-border operations where such members, such ANC members or PAC members were killed in cross-border situations.

MR JANSEN: These activities, were always aimed against the so-called political opponents of the State at that stage, mostly the ANC and the PAC, is that correct?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: In your application for amnesty, with regard to these facts, you set the facts out on pages 7 until the end of page 8 of your application, that is pages 22 and 23 of the Bundle of pages.  I would like to take you to the first paragraph of that, you say there that during 1986 and you refer to a discussion between you and Colonel De Kock regarding Mr Bantu Holomisa, is that date correct?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, this date may have actually been a little bit later, I believe that this date may be incorrect.

MR JANSEN: Gen Holomisa was not the Head of Government of Transkei in 1986 yet?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you had this discussion with Mr De Kock, was Gen Holomisa the Leader of the Military Council in Transkei, in other words had he taken the leadership of Transkei?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, as far as I can recall yes, I must just correct this, it was not a lengthy discussion, he simply asked me a question and I gave him an answer and it was never again raised.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was after Gen Holomisa had taken over the leadership of Transkei?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: For the record Mr Chairman, subject to correction, I think that was - Gen Holomisa took over I think at the end of 1987?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was New Year's Day or just the day before New Year's Day, yes.

MR JANSEN: Thank you.  That initial discussion was purely an informal incidental conversation, it wasn't really part of any work or operation that was related to Vlakplaas?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: And you are not requesting amnesty with regard to that conversation which would indicate some or other conspiracy, it is just for background reasons?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: With regard to the attempted coup d'etat by Duli, your summary of the facts there discusses it to a great extent.  I just want you to confirm a few things.  It is correct that you were not part of the contribution which Vlakplaas gave to the delivery of those weapons?