Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you trying to say that what you said in paragraph 15, my instructions was to disarm him, that is Mr Msibi, are you saying that that could also have been a mistake?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is not a mistake.  I was meant to do that.  That was the instruction.  Having killed Msibi, I had to make sure that as a person who was training the Self Defence Units, I had to make sure that they had firearms.
	These were people who were attacking members of the African National Congress.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is not what your initial evidence was and also not on the second time when I asked you about the order.  What I would like to know is whether Mr Hlaza told you that you had to go and kill Mr Msibi and take his weapons?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, as I have said the instruction was that I should kill Msibi and that I must train a Self Defence Unit.
	I had to make sure that the Self Defence Unit operates as it should.  As a soldier I saw this as part of the whole thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you try to take his arms?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson, as I have said after I shot, I instructed Hlaza to take the till.  The police were going to arrive within five minutes perhaps.
	It would have been difficult to search Msibi for a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, I think the point has been made.

MS VAN DER WALT: So did you not carry out the order that Hlaza gave you, you decided on your own that you would simply just take the money that belonged to Msibi.  That was not your order.
	It has been asked to you several times, and it has never emerged that you had to take money, you then committed an ordinary criminal robbery?

ADV SANDI: Yes, but Ms Van der Walt, without any intention to interrupt you, was it not his, was it not part of his evidence that as he understood these instructions, he also had a right to take initiatives, if to do so, would further the stated aims and objectives of that organisation?

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect, that was in relation to what Mr Patel asked.   We are now discussing a completely different group, this is the Youth League, Mr Hlaza and it does not appear from his evidence that this was his order as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are making a mistake Ms Van der Walt.  His initial order in terms of his evidence, was to do certain things in the district of Secunda, Ermelo and Piet Retief.
	Those orders or that order also included manners in which he would have to take his own initiative in order to obtain firearms and other such forms of ammunition.
	We have also heard that this included robbery.  Now he comes to Piet Retief and he says that he has received an order from a certain person to do a certain thing, but you could attempt to persuade me that if that was the case, then the order which he received in Piet Retief had nothing to do with the initial order which he received, and he shouldn't have thought about it when he went to Mr Msibi's shop.
	If it is not like that, then it makes sense to me that the one order could overlap with the other.

MS VAN DER WALT: If this applicant could place before the Honourable Committee, exactly how the command structure of the ANC functioned in order to end up with the Youth League, and where Mkhwanazi fits in as well as the other persons who gave him orders, then I would be able to agree with you, but I think that at the end of the day it could be argued that this was simply a splinter group of the ANC.  It has been argued before that these groups did their own thing.
	I think it can be strongly argued that they did certain things which were not approved by the command structure of the ANC and for which there were no orders, and this is what he cannot tell you today.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to point out something.  A man comes along and he says that he is a soldier.  If there is no communication between those who gave the initial order and those who gave the specific order in Piet Retief, then the question exists, how did the people in Piet Retief know that they could go to the witness and give him orders?  Do you understand my position?
	And I am simply pointing this out.  I don't know whether he can describe to us the line of command, I don't know.

MS VAN DER WALT: I believe that Mr Hattingh would go into this regarding his cases.  Perhaps then we would be able to determine this, but at this point, during my examination, he could not answer these questions, because he simply came back and said I was a soldier.  That was the easiest answer which he could provide.  Thank you.
	Very well sir, I would like to take you to the events as Mr Msibi's liquor store.  You testified yesterday that Mr Hlaza went along, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I said so.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you and Mr Hlaza have any firearms?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, we did.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you testified previously that in Ermelo, you were also with a person who had an AK47 when you shot Chris?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you here in the Piet Retief area, have weapons at your disposal?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, when I went there I had some weapons.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the other person also had weapons?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I gave him the firearms because I moved all around these areas with these firearms, that is why when I get money, I tried to buy firearms for the Self Defence Unit as to protect the community.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this was at the end of 1991 when Mr Msibi was shot?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, if it is so I would agree, but I am not sure about the time.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was when the negotiation process was already under way?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And appeals were made to the ANC from the National Party to hand over their weapons and this was because there were quite a number of weapons in circulation.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have no knowledge of such, that is your own knowledge.

MS VAN DER WALT: And throughout the history of the ANC it was very clear that weapons such as the AK47 were imported by the bagsful into the country, or don't you know anything about that?
	Do you know anything about the ANC's history?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As a soldier, I don't know the exact history.  If I got an instruction ...

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the answer?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you repeat your answer please?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: If the ANC was bringing arms into the country illegally, I don't know out of it.  I used DLB's, I would be told specifically where to get firearms.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have just testified that you and Mr Hlaza both went to Mr Msibi's house and that you were armed, and you also testified that you climbed into his vehicle and that he opened the door again, and that is when you shot, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: You have made a big mistake.  I did not get into Msibi's car.  I did not get into Msibi's car with Hlaza, that is a big mistake.
	We went passed Msibi's house and we saw that he was there, then we went further to the shop where I was going to kill him.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what happened then?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have said, when we were going up the road with Hlaza, close to Msibi's, there was a valley where you could see that there was a house being built.
	That is where we were when we could see that Msibi was preparing to close the shop.  I was going towards the front of Msibi's car, that is when I shot.
	Msibi was in the front of his car and his door was open.  I shot at him.  I went to the passenger side so that I could see the person that was closing the shop because the other person ran away, I wanted to see if he was carrying a gun.  That is when I shot. 
	I then shot Msibi again as he went underneath the car and then instructed Hlaza to get the till.  After that, we ran off.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could we just take it a little easier.  You have just said that you saw that Mr Msibi was busy locking his shop, those were your words?