Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I appreciate that but there may have to be a limit somewhere.  I appreciate that because surely you don't expect us - when we consider the merits of this case, to delve into Zondo's case or to allow it to have some bearing on us?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I'll be happy ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We don't know it, we'll never get the full facts of that case before us.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I'm sure not, I ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Well, that's what causes me difficulty and I disagree with respect, with my brother because if one accepts what Mr Hartzenberg has said, we granted amnesty in the Zondo case.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...[inaudible]

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I don't think we did but that was what Mr Hartzenberg said.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...[inaudible]

GEORGE BIZOS: He actually was executed Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, he was referring to a different case.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible] another case that he referred to.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was actually convicted, sentenced to death and executed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Bizos, you can rest assured that as far as this Committee is concerned, it is going to judge the facts of this case on the facts ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: I will leave it, I will leave it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We will not take into account ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: I will leave it on that basis.  I very briefly want to make reference Mr Chairman, to Mr Chris Botha's case in Pretoria - Koos Botha in Pretoria, do you know how much damage Mr Koos Botha's act caused?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I can't tell you precisely but it apparently was substantial damage.  [Transcriber's own translation]

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you don't know how much it was?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you know whether anybody was injured?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Not as far as I know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether - before he was granted amnesty, whether he had been granted indemnity in terms of the Further Indemnity Act of 1992?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, if you say so, I accept it but the fact is that it is from the proceedings of this Committee that it became clear that he had obtained amnesty and if you say he received indemnity, I accept that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I am not sure - we are checking it, but I merely asked you whether you knew.  We will look at the gazettes as to whether indemnity had been granted to Mr Botha.
	You got a file from Mrs Derby-Lewis?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct, I told you that yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: If I may have a moment with the exhibits file.
	Was Exhibit A(e)1 amongst the papers that she handed to you?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, I didn't open the file, Mrs Derby-Lewis gave me a file and told me that in the file there was much material for a speech regarding a topic which would deal with the champions for the poor who were living in the lap of luxury.
	That was during a week where a debate was taking place regarding the opening speech of the State President and I told you yesterday, at that stage there were agreements entered into by the ANC and the Government which were not upheld and which were discussed in that debate - COSAC was discussed in that debate and I had to reply to those cases and matters.  
	Those were the events of the day and therefore I told Mrs Derby-Lewis I couldn't study the file on this other topic and talk about it in this debate because it was not relevant at the time and it was not a current issue - I returned to file to Mrs Derby-Lewis, I did not study the file.

GEORGE BIZOS: You did not even open it?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, I never opened it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there anything on top of the file?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I cannot remember at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did she leave anything on your desk?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Except for the file?

GEORGE BIZOS: Besides that file?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Except for the file, I can't remember anything - I cannot reply to this in the affirmative or in the negative.

GEORGE BIZOS: She did not show you or put on your desk a list of names?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, she told me that there was the file, I could find information regarding the luxury in which the people of the Communist Party and so-called champions were living.

GEORGE BIZOS: She did not give you nor did she leave on your desk - for your special attention, a list of names?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, I cannot remember that Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to put to you Doctor Hartzenberg, that people speak the truth about these matters, when they speak the first time and the policy of your Party was well and truly described by you in very clear terms in April '93, as it was also clearly described by other leading members of your Party.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, there are no questions thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Doctor Hartzenberg, I appreciate your statement that you supported and indeed even now, you still support Mr Derby-Lewis because you feel that he might have subjectively interpreted the policy and the events in the way that he did, you sympathise with him in that regard, what is not clear to me is
whether your support and understanding of his subjective interpretation of the events goes so far as to cause the CP to approve of what the applicants did - please tell me if you don't understand my question.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, I think I do understand it clearly and I think yes, that I actually applied to it but could I use an example to explain this?  If my child gives me a Xmas present and it is a present which I don't like but I know that it comes with the best and good intentions - that this gift is given, I do not return the gift and tell him that I don't want it, I accept it and I express my appreciation for the good spirit in which the gift was given.
	I said yesterday that we did not approve of what happened but we accept that it was done in a certain spirit and a certain attitude which the applicants thought would serve the cause of the CP and that I accept unequivocally, in the same way that I would accept my child's good spirit in which a gift would be given.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So the core of your reply - the essence, is that the CP did not approve the deed?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I said that yesterday and I maintain that we did not approve of the deed but we accept unconditionally that the applicant had thought to be acting for the CP, as far as I'm concerned he's not a murderer, he didn't do it for money, it was for no other purpose than a political purpose - the cause of the CP.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hartzenberg, I just want to get your opinion.  If it can be accepted that indeed Mr Derby-Lewis believed that by killing Mr Hani, he was furthering the cause of the CP, would you not have expected him - as a prominent member of the CP and quite a senior and found member of the CP, to have advised you - the Deputy Leader of the CP, of what he was about to embark upon?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That one would expect, that it could happen but with such a serious matter on could also - I could also understand that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis felt that he was involving himself in this matter but he wouldn't involve anybody else.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why would he not involve anyone else if he believed - bona fides believed, that what he was about to do was in the cause - was in the interest of the Party?