Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

UNKNOWN: Are you asking me that question?

YASMINE SOOKA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The question I heard from the clergy is that the young men were being held against their will and I was asked to try and secure their release.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  I have one more question, the Crisis Committee - when they did see these boys, noticed that they were not in a good physical condition, they had scars and the question
was asked of them what had happened to them and they mention that they'd fallen from trees.   Now, I know that you didn't examine them but is it possible for you to comment on the condition - the physical condition of the ones who went with you to Mr Naidoo's office?

UNKNOWN: I'm afraid I cannot, however I did - as evidence in the main submission by Peter Storey, I did comment on the mental condition of one of those young men and the words used in Peter Storey's submission is that
"I thought the guy was on drugs"
I cannot agree having such words but this third young man, I ...

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  I have one more question, the Crisis Committee - when they did see these boys, noticed that they were not in a good physical condition, they had scars and the question was asked of them what had happened to them and they mention that they'd fallen from trees.   Now, I know that you didn't examine them but is it possible for you to comment on the condition - the physical condition of the ones who went with you to Mr Naidoo's office?

UNKNOWN: I'm afraid I cannot, however I did - as evidence in the main submission by Peter Storey, I did comment on the mental condition of one of those young men and the words used in Peter Storey's submission is that
"I thought the guy was on drugs"
I cannot agree having such words but this third young man, I ...

UNKNOWN: It could have, Cebekhulu looked peculiar, but as far as a physical examination about their physical status I did not examine them and therefore I am in no position to comment on their physical condition.

YASMINE SOOKA: Just one more question, why was it that you took them to the offices of Krish Naidoo?

UNKNOWN: I think this was an arrangement that had been made between, among ourselves you know, that Krish would then pass them on to the Methodist Church.  We were looking for a place of safety for them.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Chairman may I ask exactly one question and a short one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CROSS: Thank you.  Doctor the assertion must be put on record that the reason for them being unable to leave the household was that Mrs Mandela, through my client Mr Richardson was preventing them from leaving.  Do you have anything to comment on that?

UNKNOWN: I have no comment at all, I wouldn't know.

MR CROSS: But you don't dispute it.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I have a small little question.  You went under the impression given by the clergy that you are going to negotiate or ask for the release, now did Mrs Mandela say to you, oh how can you come and try and ask for the release, they are free to go?  Did she say anything of that sort?

UNKNOWN: Let me confess I am not sure what she said to me.  All I can say that she agreed that they would be released to my care and therefore subsequently to the Church.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, released, why this word released?

UNKNOWN: I am probably using the wrong word as Advocate Semenya has pointed out, maybe she said to me, and I can't recall, well if they want to go take them along or words to that effect.  I am not sure what she said.

MR VALLY: I have been covered Arch, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You are free to stand down.  Unfortunately the duet will have to remain.

MR: May I be excused Mr Chairperson, may I be excused also?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes!   (General laughter)  We'll come back at half past four.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.  Right you are, Piers.

MP PIGOU: Thank you Chair.  I would like to ask some questions to Reverend Mbangula now please.
 Reverend Mbangula did you attend a community meeting at Dobsonville on the 16th of January 1989?

REV MBANGULA: Yes Sir.

MP PIGOU: And could you tell us during that meeting did you witness Thabiso Mono and Pele Mekgwe withdraw their allegations against the Reverend Paul Verryn?

REV MBANGULA: Yes Sir.

MP PIGOU: Did you also in that meeting witness the arrival of Katiza Cebekhulu with Krish Naidoo and a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

REV MBANGULA: Correct.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell us what the reaction was from the people in the meeting when those people arrived during the testimony of Pele Mekgwe and Thabiso Mono?

REV MBANGULA: When - you mean when Katiza arrived or who?

MP PIGOU: Yes I'll put some context.  If you weren't listening to Bishop Storey's testimony yesterday he indicated that there was a great deal of fear in the room when it became known that someone from the Mandela United Football Club was actually present, was that the case?

REV MBANGULA: I wouldn't describe that as fear, but I would describe that as some objection to - from the members of the community to Krish Naidoo who came in, earlier he had promised that he would come to the meeting like it has been said with Katiza who said he was not happy to go with the other group, but when he came with this other gentleman there were a lot of memories which were sort of objecting to the presence of that gentleman I didn't know why.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell us whether you remember whether the member of the Mandela United Football Club was armed at all?

REV MBANGULA: No I didn't see any arms at that time.

MP PIGOU: Were you present when Lerothodi Ikaneng came and spoke to people at that meeting and indicated the fresh wound on his neck?

REV MBANGULA: Yes I was present.

MP PIGOU: Could you perhaps just describe to us what the reaction was from the members gathered there when Mr Ikaneng described what had happened to him at the hands of Mr Jerry Richardson and members of the Mandela United Football Club?

REV MBANGULA: I think there was a feeling of some shock of some kind because as he showed us what had happened to his neck, you know there were ah's and oohs and so on.

MP PIGOU: Thank you.  In the Crisis Committee submission that we received today there is a reflection of resolutions that the meeting took, I don't know if you have that with you.

REV MBANGULA: I do, yes, continue.

MP PIGOU: Yes, and the - I just want to read very briefly that the meeting took the following resolutions and I want you to either confirm or deny this
 That Winnie be approached and instructed to produce Stompie - number one;  
 Number two, that all progressive organisations should no longer give her a platform;  
 Number three, that the Football Club be dismantled forthwith, that's the community dismantle the Club for her;  Number four, that from now henceforth she must desist from creating an impression that she speaks on behalf of the people;
 Number 5, that neither Krish Naidoo nor any other progressive lawyer in the country should act for her.
Were those the resolutions that were taken that day?

REV MBANGULA: My understanding is that those resolutions were of the Crisis Committee and the meeting I was in it was a Mass Democratic Movement meeting which involved a larger, I mean a broader spectrum of people, not the Crisis Committee.  So my understanding is that those resolutions ought to have been taken in a Crisis Committee meeting, not in that one.