Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: He addressed us and said that we were going to look for illegal weapons and ammunition.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did he do that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is with the road block instructions.

MS VAN DER WALT: At Deon Martin's?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You had an ear operation is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Because you had hearing problems?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: At that stage I did not have any hearing problems any more.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you have this hearing problem?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was in the beginning of October.

MS VAN DER WALT: I put it to you that it is so improbable that you would be called together, that weapons will be handed out and all that - work will be done and that the other applicants' version is more likely that the revolution will start today.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That revolution was probably in their minds only.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you then shoot at the black people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because I executed an order.

MS VAN DER WALT: But your order was not to shoot, why did you shoot at the black people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because Mr Martin asked them if they were members of the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you shoot at the black people, what did you think?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I saw the ANC as the enemy.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you began with the revolution, you came in resistance against the ANC?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the revolution was not only in their minds?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There were only nine people that tried to do it and not the rest of the country.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any other explosion that occurred during that period?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There was only one that I know of.

MS VAN DER WALT: Which one was that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That was at the monument.

MS VAN DER WALT: And all the other explosions for which Japie Oelofse were detained?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That was at Krugersdorp and Weegbrug.

MS VAN DER WALT: In the same time, December?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I cannot remember if it was December or not.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it continued, the right wing violence, up until the election when bombs went off in Germiston, so it was not the only incident.  The statement you had made here is that nothing else happened by right wing groups, is not correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, it is not correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, through out the country it occurred, in the Free State it also occurred, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in the Western Transvaal there were also explosions done by AWB, where people were killed, they are also applying for amnesty, so it did continue?

MS VAN DER WALT: What are we busy with now, because as far as I know, there is no doubt that the events of that nature did take place?

MS VAN DER WALT: I put it to him that after what he said that the revolution only occurred in the minds of the other applicants, I would just like to show him that right through the country, there was unrest.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you are on the same wavelength.  I am understanding him to say that no revolution took place that night, that is what he is saying.
	If your definition of, maybe your definition of revolution, your personal definition of revolution means something else.  I don't know, but we in this proceedings we are concerned with a particular revolution which is supposed to have taken place on the 12th of December, that is what he is talking about.

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect, I would like to say that the revolution started that evening, he said just the revolution went on in their heads, or occurred in their heads.

ADV BOSMAN: He qualified it by saying the period, maybe you should put it to him what he meant by period.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that period?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.  If you could just maybe clarify that.

MR MALAN: I am sorry Mrs Van der Walt, he also said that explosions did occur during that period.  He referred to Ventersdorp, etc.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could I, regarding what was said now, you said during that period that revolution only appeared in the minds of the applicants.  What do you mean by that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was only them who on the 12th of December like they gave evidence in front of the Committee, said that the revolution would occur country wide.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, then I come back to the question that I put to you.  The reason why you shot the black people, was because you also resisted?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that it later became apparent that it would be a road block, this is at Deon Martin's house?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to refer you, there have been several other amnesty applications, I would like to refer you to that of - you don't have to read it - I will just mention it to you.  I am sure your Advocate would make objection if it is not correct, I am referring to the amnesty application of Deon Martin, page 24 up until page 38, and it was also his evidence before the Committee that it is correct, you got instructions at the road house that tonight it would be the real McCoy and then you drove first to his house, and there you only received instructions that it would be a roadblock?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just a minute please Chairperson.  In your amended application, Exhibit 5, page 3, the last paragraph Chairperson, you say that you had a home made shotgun and several SSG rounds.  You said you received that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, the pipe shotgun, I did receive that.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the bullets?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I got that in Andre Visser's vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you didn't receive it?  It was laying in the car, he was practising with that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The rounds I found in his vehicle, the pipe shotgun I did receive.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, after these people then went to sit down on the embankment and you were standing on the side of the road, with regards to the vehicle, is this at the Honda or the Cressida?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: This is at the Honda.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you then received the instruction to go and shoot, where did you go then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I walked around the vehicle and took up position there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You took up a position next to who exactly, what do you mean exactly with taking up a position?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I went and I stood there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, but who was next to you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: On my left hand side was Etienne Visser as well as Kloppers.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then when you went to stand there, did you not shoot immediately?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, my pipe shotgun was in my hand.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you went to shoot but when you got there, you didn't immediately started shooting?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why not?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because a few minutes after that, maybe a few seconds after that, Deon Martin fired the first shot.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you knew that was the sign for you to shoot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: When I saw he was shooting, I started shooting as well.