Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, that last part is an opinion of whoever did the summary but what I can say is that there had been a specific financial plan that was inter-departmental, not inter-departmental within the Defence Force but between departments of the government of South Africa at that time.  It was approved on that level and this would then involve the payment of production bonuses and amounts of money even for administrative expenditure and this would be called a production bonus.  In this context it would then be correct.

MR HOCKEY: Maybe I must just refer you to paragraph 410 as well and I'll read it
"A major CCB operation was undertaken in South West Africa in 1989.  As part of the South African Government's campaign against SWAPO in the run up to the December 1989 elections in South West Africa, every aware member was transferred from their region to sew up the work of the existing South West African CCB set up.  According to Christo Nel we were told "double up your production and you will get a production bonus."
And then that paragraph is concluded, it was in this context that Mr Anton Lubowski was killed.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This is an opinion of someone who summarised the document, I don't think I have to answer this.

CHAIRPERSON: They say this was told to them by Christo Nel one of your ...(intervention)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Christo Nel works for the current government under cover.  He worked for the Directorate covert operations of the old government and then he worked in the operational area of Ovamboland for the commanding general, Special Forces and then he worked for the CCB and then when he was not allowed to do that and then he went back and he worked for the Ciskei and then he came to cry for money by me and now he is working for the current document under cover so he is what one would call a military prostitute.

MR HOCKEY: So Sir, do you deny that a production bonus was promised to operatives in South West Africa at the time?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Pardon, say that again?

MR HOCKEY: Do you deny that a production bonus was offered to your operatives?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not have to answer that, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hockey, would this be a convenient time to take a short tea adjournment?  We're just going to take the tea adjournment now, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: (s.u.o.)

MR HOCKEY: (Cont)
	Mr Verster, let me just ask a follow up question to one of the statements that you made uninvitedly?  You said that some of your people, your aware members, were also involved in other regions.  Do you want to confirm that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes.  It happened that as a result of a shortage of staff, I think of a specific incidence, and that was Christo Britz, he for instance was with Region 6 but he was also the Co-ordinator of another region.

MR HOCKEY: Is it only Christo Britz that was involved in the other regions?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Heino Muller was another example who was the manager of Region 1, the Botswana region, but he also had another function.

MR HOCKEY: Mr Verster, I'm talking about Region 6 people.  Region 6 people, were any of them involved in other regions?  I understood that you testified earlier that of Region 6 people some of them were involved in other regions as well.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.  In the case of Region 6, as part of the overall strategy they had orders to also put themselves in external regions that I'm not prepared to discuss here.

MR HOCKEY: Apart from them having orders, were these orders also executed?  Were there specific instances where they did act outside the country?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't think I have to answer that question, Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: ...(inaudible) words to the effect that Chappie Maree and Staal Burger were involved in Namibia.  Can you confirm or deny this?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It is an external project that I'm not going to discuss any further, Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: So you are not prepared to answer the question?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: Are you prepared to tell this Committee or inform this Committee of any activities where Region 6 people were involved in other regions?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think it is only in situations outside the country that they were involved and for the reasons that we have already mentioned I do not want to discuss it any further Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: So if they were involved externally, if they were involved outside South Africa, then they must have known some of the members of the other regions?  Can you confirm or deny this?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, that is not necessarily the case he would work on his own, he would always work in a cell structure, so I deny that Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: Are you saying that whenever Region 6 people had orders to carry out outside South Africa, they operated completely on their own?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was the policy unless a project was grouped together and that would then be part of a planning where decision was then made.  The people would be introduced to one another and if it didn't happen like that then it was not according to the instructions.

MR HOCKEY: You can call it that operation, in 1999, a lot of your operatives were involved there, including Region 6 people, is that right?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I'm not prepared to discuss this any further,  Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness made it quite clear he is not going to answer questions relating to external incidents, Mr Hockey.

MR HOCKEY: I'll leave it there, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Can I ask you, now you've already been asked this but I'm just asking you to confirm it again because I'm going to follow up.  The CCB regularly made use of gangsters, is that right?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, it was not on a regular basis but the end result justified the means and in the cases where the access was through a gang member then we would use him indirectly.

MR HOCKEY: But how often or how many gangsters were used in the operation of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: If I think, off the top of my head it's only those on the table, there aren't any others that I can remember.

MR HOCKEY: If you think quickly, is it just Isgak Hardien or are there others?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, it was Peaches, Peaches was also there.

MR HOCKEY: Do you remember ...(inaudible)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not at all Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: You say this Jeffrey was a person that was dealing in dagga?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was his name?

MR HOCKEY: Jeffrey.

CHAIRPERSON: Jeffrey?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson, I think you will have to ask that question to the members who worked on ground level.

MR HOCKEY: A statement by Kalla Botha that he recruited this person named Jeffrey who was a known, according to him, dealer in dagga and that this person was engaged to gather information around a person named Anton Roskamp.  Is this name familiar to you?  Anton Roskamp?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: If it was a project of Region 6 of the CCB would there have been authority for this project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot recall such a project and I think that this is also in his Section 29 statement that he made.

MR HOCKEY: So you are aware of this statement made by ...(intervention)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have read it in his documentation Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: Was that according to Kalla Botha or the information that was provided to him?  Kalla Botha says that according to the information that Anton Roskamp was the Chairperson of the Wits SRC and was also a member of JODAC at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was that last organisation?