Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-20

MR NOTUNUNU: The Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel, would like to know why you killed Mr Phungulua?  Can you tell the Honourable Chair and the Honourable members of the Panel the reason why you killed Mr Phungulua?   Tell us.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: During that time we were in the command, the MK command in the Transkei.  What happened is we gathered intelligence data that a lot of Askaris who regrouped ...

MR NOTUNUNU: By the way Mr Matshaya, are you MK together with your co-applicants, or were you MK?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: MK is the military wing of the African National Congress?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, it is Umkonto We Sizwe.

MR NOTUNUNU: Just tell me something Mr Matshaya, before you proceed, what was the relationship between the MK and the Askaris?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go onto that, can you tell us what an Askari is?

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  Mr Matshaya, just tell the Honourable Chair and Panel what an Askari is, what do you perceive to be an Askari?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: An Askari is a person who previously was a member of MK, and that person defects to the enemy, the South African Police, and then that man starts fighting against his own comrades.

MR NOTUNUNU: Are you saying fighting against his own comrades, whom are you referring to, that is the own comrades?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: The full members of MK.

MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Matshaya, is there anything like resignation in the MK, persons saying look I am resigning as an MK member, is there anything like that in your knowledge as, on MK members?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: No, there is no such.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, we are in a situation now where you say there was a war between, no, no, I have asked you what was the relationship between yourselves as MK cadres and also the Askaris, you have just described before the Honourable Chair.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Where there would be a gathering, they would be shooting each other, fighting.  It would depend who took out his arm first, weapon.

MR NOTUNUNU: In other words, there was in fact a war between you, members of MK, and also the Askaris?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: A big war.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did you, I understand that as MK cadres you had some kind of targets.  My question to you Mr Matshaya is, did you, did the Askaris fall in the same category of being your targets?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, they would be our first targets.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would they be a target?

MR NOTUNUNU: It is because they would be in the forefront and they would identify us, and roadblocks, raids, you would be walking in town, they would be the ones who were used by the Security Police to identify us all the time.
	Because the Security Police did not know us.

MR NOTUNUNU: In other words the Askaris were the very people who were making it very easy for the enemy, to get hold of you and also do whatever they wanted to you?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Absolutely.  They played a major role in a lot of comrades losing their lives.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the enemy?  Who was the enemy that they were assisting?

MR NOTUNUNU: Did the enemy, the Honourable Chair, Mr Matshaya, wants to know, you are saying the Askaris played a big role because they were with the enemy, they were on the side of the enemy, going with the enemy, the Honourable Chair now wants to know whom are you referring to when you are talking about the enemy?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: The Security Forces of the part apartheid regime, all of them, Defence and the Police.

MR NOTUNUNU: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Why were they the enemy?

MR NOTUNUNU: The Honourable Chair, Mr Matshaya, wants to know why you referred to the Askaris as the enemy?

CHAIRPERSON: No, why is the Security Forces the enemy?

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Mr Chairman, the Honourable Chair wants to know why you thought or why were the apartheid Security Forces as you have mentioned, indicated, were regarded as enemy, why did you call them the enemy, the Security Forces, former apartheid Security Forces?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: There was a war going on.  The apartheid regime that was ruling at that time, were the pillar, the Security Police were the machinery in oppressing people.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much for that Mr Matshaya.  Now, let's come to the late Mr Phungulua.  You are saying Mr Phungulua was in fact an Askari and you have made the description of the Askari.  Could you elaborate on that so that the Honourable Chair and the Honourable members of the Panel, could really know what is going on?
	Could you elaborate on the question of the late Phungulua being an Askari?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: First of all, Mr Phungulua I think in 1983 or 1984, were involved in a mutiny in Angola, where a number of comrades died.

MR NOTUNUNU: Those comrades, do you mean MK cadres?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Correct, in the camps.

MR NOTUNUNU: Just before we go further to that, there is just one thing I want to be clarified.  Was Phungulua at the time of his killing alone or was he with another person, if so, whom?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: He was with Chaoge, another Askari.  I knew him as Chaoge.

MR NOTUNUNU: This Chaoge was an MK name, Chaoge?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Correct.

MR NOTUNUNU: Does that sudu name refer to Mr Luthandu Dyasophu?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, exactly.

MR NOTUNUNU: Okay, now let's talk, you have indicated that the said Dyasophu was also an Askari.  Now, what I want you to do now is to tell the Honourable Chair why you regarded those two, that is the deceased Mr Phungulua, and Mr Dyasophu who escaped killing on that day, as Askaris?
	You had, you were still talking, saying that they were involved in a mutiny.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, they were involved in a mutiny, they were arrested by the ANC.  They were supposed to have been shot, they escaped a military tribunal.  The ANC forgave them and released them, the leadership.  They were taken to Tanzania, deployed to other areas to be rehabilitated.

MR NOTUNUNU: The purpose of deployment in countries like Tanzania was for the purpose of rehabilitation?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, they were going to be rehabilitated, taken to school, any skill that would help them.

MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Matshaya, do you know how the two, that is the late Mr Phungulua and also Mr Dyasophu, do you know how they got to the country, because you have indicated how they left the ANC, in particular the MK, how they left the MK and how they joined the country, they came into the country?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: Can you tell the Honourable Chair how they left the MK, were they given leave to go away, bla, bla, bla?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: No, they defected from the movement, the MK.  They defected from the ANC and the MK.

MR NOTUNUNU: After defecting from the ANC which was - by that time, by the way, was the ANC still under banishment, still banned at the time they defected?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, it was still doing the armed struggle.

MR NOTUNUNU: MK was still involved in the armed struggle?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: The armed struggle had not as yet been suspended?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please wait for the interpretation,  Mr Notununu?

MR NOTUNUNU: Thanks Honourable Chair.  After they had defected from the MK, from the ANC, where did they go to?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: What happened is we just saw them holding a news conference on TV, speaking against the ANC and its leadership, even the military command of the ANC.  They had complaints that they uttered publicly on TV, there was a press conference.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, this television, was it American, England television, which television was that?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: South African, SABC.