Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was the beginning of this liberation struggle.

MR PHOSA: Your beginning of the liberation struggle is very limited, the struggle started long before that.  Anyway, am I not correct in my understanding that right through the country there were incidents of violence, in other words violence was not restricted to the Eastern Cape?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I came from Pietermaritzburg in Natal at that stage and nothing was happening there in comparison to what was happening here.  I would not deny that elsewhere incidents like these were happening.

MR PHOSA: Do I understand that - sorry, the suggestion that elimination be resorted to was for the entire country, in other words the idea as you understood it the police all over the country where there was a problem like this, must destroy - kill people?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I cannot speak on behalf of other people, what they understood and how they regarded that, I can't explain that here.

MR PHOSA: As you understood it did it say, now the suggestion is that police must now consider all over the country wherever there's a problem of this nature - eliminate ...[inaudible]

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I don't understand it in that way.

MR PHOSA: Therefore anyway we've covered that, I think you were saying it was really aiming at the situation in the Eastern Cape.  Now did Mr - from your reports you got, did Mr Mthimkhulu make a statement in the form of a confession whilst he was in detention?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I did not see his confession Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Was his statement irrelevant to you or irrelevant to this decision whether or not he should be killed?  Isn't it something that you would have like to see - what he says?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, at that stage no statement was shown to me, no confession was shown to me.  If it was a confession, I did not see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if there was a confession in existence, whether he had made a confession?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, no.

MR PHOSA: Of course he'd been there, he'd been in detention for the greater part of 1981, wasn't he?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: He was detained for a long time Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: For interrogation obviously, not for fun?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, that was what the legislation made provision for.

MR PHOSA: I put two questions - you mean for interrogation?  He was detained for interrogation?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Was he interrogated?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, he was interrogated.

MR PHOSA: Because you as the senior person there were bound to be given reports from time to time as to whether or not he was answering questions and as to whether he was answering in a satisfactory manner, isn't it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It is so Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: How was he answering?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: At this stage I cannot remember what he answered.

MR PHOSA: If he was confessing that would be a very important occurrence, isn't it - to you as a police?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, it would have been important, outstanding confessions which we could have used.

MR PHOSA: From another reply of your where you said something like: "If he'd been charged there would have been no successful prosecution - I'm not using your exact words, something like that.  Do you remember saying that?

MR VISSER: With respect Mr Chairman, that was in regard to Madaka, no evidence in that regard was presented in regard to Mr Mthimkhulu.

MR PHOSA: Now, you've just heard your counsel, do you agree with him that you didn't say that because I don't remember and I ask you seriously?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I did mention that there was not enough evidence to institute successful prosecutions.

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairperson, I'm about to ask that the next time Mr Visser wants to say something, he'd better clear his mind about his correctness because right now it's the second time I'm being interrupted unduly.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I take exception to that, the record will show who was right and who was wrong in the end, with respect.  It's my duty point out to you when my learned friend places questions to the witness which are not based on the evidence.  I submit that we will see on the record who was right later.

MR PHOSA: Mr Erasmus, you and I are in agreement now let's go on your evidence that you and I understand you have given.  Now, why would a prosecution have been unsuccessful if you had tried to go against Mr Mthimkhulu - in your opinion?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: A prosecution would be unsuccessful because there was not enough evidence and even evidence to present in a criminal court.  No person here would give evidence in a criminal case against Mthimkhulu and that was because of intimidation, he wouldn't have lived the next day.

MR PHOSA: I am aware of cases all over the country but more pertinently in the Eastern Cape where it appeared a lot where a number of people - political people - politico's were detained, they made admission in terms whilst interrogated and subsequently made statement on which they were convicted, aren't you aware of such?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I cannot deny that such cases might have happened.

MR PHOSA: Do you have records or have you destroyed them, concerning Mr Mthimkhulu's detention?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I cannot tell you, I left P.E. in 1983, if there's still records available I do not know.

MR PHOSA: Are you giving evidence here all this time and all the details and things you have done without sight of any documentation regarding that period?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: In other documents or publications you can find a lot of this information I have provided, I did not have access to Government documents.

MR PHOSA: Is your answer to this effect that since 1983 up to today, you have not had sight of the records regarding Mr Mthimkhulu's detention by the security police in your division?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I did not control - I did not look at any of these records.

MR PHOSA: Does the same apply to Mr Madaka?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: But as you know the position, you would expect - if everything goes normally, that those records are available to date.  If everything is being done properly, those records should be available.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: If everything went in a normal way those documents will still be available.

MR PHOSA: Now, those records would indicate firstly when Mr - when each of them was detained, wouldn't they do that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It is so, yes.

MR PHOSA: By whom they were arrested and by whom they were interrogated?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: The occasions when they were interrogated and the places where they were interrogated?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: And they ought also to have the various notes or statements or just call them scribblings of what they were saying, all that ought to be found somewhere?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can't tell you whether it is still available because I don't know.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, by "ought" I mean if everything goes normally one would expect to find all that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Just before the lunch adjournment, I made reference to poisoning to what you had said in court - before the Commission, do you remember that?  I put that you had said you nothing about the poisoning, do you remember me saying that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.