Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps it might be convenient to recall Mr Wasserman at this stage.  His application, you will recall is in bundle 2, from page 112 onwards Mr Chairman.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: (still under oath)

MR VISSER: (continued)  Mr Wasserman, you gave evidence previously in these hearings, is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you took the oath to speak the truth previously, do you consider yourself still bound to speak the truth in terms of the previous oath that you took?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I do Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman we are not going to rehash or revisit the evidence which you already gave in regard to the political situation and political objectives.
	Can we go straight to the incident regarding Ndwandwe?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We can Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Now, you have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses.  Will you briefly tell the Committee where you came into it, and what your part was first in the abduction and through to the end of the incident where Ms Ndwandwe was eliminated and buried?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well Mr Chairman, I accompanied all the names that had been mentioned so far to the house.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, can you just speak up a little bit please.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I accompanied the persons and personalities that had been mentioned by the previous applicants to this house at Onverwacht.
	Later, we all had our responsibilities from there, we knew what they were.  I then proceeded with the bakkie through Lavumisa border post.

MR VISSER: Which border post is that, we have heard of ...

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Oh, on the South African side it is called Culel, the Swazi side it is Lavumisa, it is the same post.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I don't know whether I am the only one that is confused, but I have heard of a border post Culel and the other one is Onverwacht.  Which of the two did you enter?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It is Culel, but it is also Lavumisa, it is the same place.

MR VISSER: Well, let's just stick to what we know, Culel.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, but it becomes very confusing on the record, when suddenly one refers to different names of people and places where we know which ones we have been referring to so far.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I will refer to Culel.

MR VISSER: If you could just stick to the names that we have been using so far.  Please continue.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: All right Mr Chairman, so from there, I proceeded up towards Manzini where I waited on Culel/Manzini road.  Later on I met up with Du Preez.  At that point where we met, is where the two informers were handed their bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the two of you travelling in at that stage?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, at that stage I was alone in the bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Du Preez?

MR VISSER: Du Preez?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Du Preez was in the minibus.

MR VISSER: In the minibus?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: In the minibus, yes.

MR VISSER: Kombi?

CHAIRPERSON: Kombi?

MR VISSER: It was actually a panel van Mr Chairman, but we will call it a kombi.  All right, and you say there you handed the bakkie to the two informers, and what did you do, get into the kombi with Du Preez?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And what happened then?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We then proceeded into Manzini and took up a surveillance position.

MR VISSER: Behind or in front of the bakkie?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: In front of the bakkie, which was in the vicinity of the entrance to the George Hotel.

MR VISSER: What time of the day was this approximately?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I would estimate it now between 17H00 and 18H00 Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Between five o'clock and six o'clock in the afternoon, all right?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: Continue.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We were informed by radio that the subject, Ms Ndwandwe had arrived and had entered the bakkie.

MR VISSER: Who informed you by radio?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was Mr Botha sir.

MR VISSER: And he was where?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: They were in a position behind the bakkie.

MR VISSER: In Taylor's vehicle?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: All right.

MR MALAN: Sorry to interrupt the course of things Mr Visser, but you said that you wouldn't want to lead all the evidence once again, in order to expedite matters, is there any reason why you are coming back to this?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes, I certainly am not doing this because I think that I  have nothing else to do.  I am just wondering whether this witness shouldn't at least tell you what his participation was.
	Perhaps I can go a little quicker, thank you for the indication Mr Chairman.  Perhaps if I may then just lead you, is it true that at some stage, Ms Ndwandwe got into the bakkie with the two informers?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: That the bakkie then left Manzini and travelled towards the Big Bend?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you follow them or did you go ahead of them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We were ahead Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Ahead, and Taylor with his vehicle and occupants followed from behind the bakkie?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is it also correct that some distance away as Mr Forster had testified, the vehicles came to a standstill and Ndwandwe was transferred from the bakkie into the kombi?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: From there, with which vehicle did you travel?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was in the bakkie Mr Chairman, no, I was in the kombi, the kombi bus Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: In the kombi?  Mr Botha and Mr Forster said that it was raining that day, is that your recollection?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And that on the way to Hluti, the vehicles came to a standstill and Botha and Ndwandwe got onto the back of the bakkie, covered with a tarpaulin and where did you then, which vehicle did you then alight?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I then took charge and drove the 4 x 4, the bakkie.

MR VISSER: You drove the bakkie and who was with you?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Du Preez in the front.

MR VISSER: Du Preez.  The other two vehicles left and exited at Culel?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Where did you then go, did you go passed Hluti and where?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I proceeded to a point on the fence line, on the border fence line where Mr Botha and Ms Ndwandwe were handed over.

MR VISSER: Did they climb through the fence?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And who was on the other side?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: There was Mr Taylor and Mr Steyn, and Mr Forster.

MR VISSER: All right, what did you then do, you and Du Preez I should ask?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: The Culel border post was closed, so we continued along the southern road of Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Did you go back to Manzini?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: And headed into Manzini, yes.

MR VISSER: Did you stay over in Manzini that evening, that night?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We only got there in the early hours of the next morning, but we did stay over in Manzini, yes.

MR VISSER: There seems to be a suggestion that there was a burglary in a house where Ms Ndwandwe was living and that money was taken.  If it is suggested that either you or Du Preez or you and Du Preez did that, what would you say about that?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I deny that emphatically Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you know where she lived?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she had various houses, she was very difficult to find at any set stage.  I wouldn't have known exactly where she would have even kept that.

MR VISSER: If you wanted to go and find her at her house, you say you wouldn't have known where to go?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Not instantly Mr Chairman, one would have to mount a little bit of an operation around it, but not instantly, she had various addresses.