Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: Chairperson, of course, and that is why the people are here today and this is why this second presentation was also made to you today, by General Viljoen.  I would like to add that our position was not easier because of the distrust that existed and still exists in members of the old SADF about this Commission and the working of this Commission.
 This week and we went on record this morning also to stress my opening remarks, but yes to answer that question, we tried to get as many people as possible that knew about the context of these questions, and this included the former Chiefs of the South African Defence Force.

MR GOOSEN: And I take it that in dealing with the matter relating to the CCB, you would have consulted on that matter as well?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: It is very difficult to consult on that matter, because the CCB was managed dead, if I can use that expression.  The CCB ceased to exist, I am not sure exactly when it was.  I think the end of 1993, the beginning of 1994, it was managed to a stand still by means of the assistance of an ombudsman, a Judge Van der Walt, Honourable Judge van der Walt, and acted on those aspects, one of the aspects thereof was to destroy the operational records of the CCB, that was done after the necessary call it action was taken.
So it was very difficult to consult on the CCB.  First of all we didn't have people who wanted to come forward to tell us about that, and secondly we didn't have the information available in the records about this.

MR GOOSEN: General Meiring, I take it that you obviously had the difficult task of being the Chief of the South African National Defence Force with the South African Defence Force as an entity no longer in existence, obviously Officers who served in the South African Defence Force formerly, they were still around, but as an entity it didn't exist.  Do I take it that in the answering of the questions, you would have attempted to reconstruct if you like, the perspective, approaches, policies and decisions of the former South African Defence Force in order to answer the questions posed by the Commission?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: Yes, in our submission Chairperson, we emphatically stated that as far as was in the means available to us and the time available, we have tried to reconstruct according to the wishes of the Commission.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you.  Part 5, question 1, it deals with part 5, the questions were numbered.  The title of that is Defence Force operations, anti-Marxist liberation movements.  The question was asked that the (indistinct) document seized at Renamo HQ, Headquarters in August 1985, reflected continued SADF support for Renamo in violation of the Nkomati accord.
 And the question is this and it is how it is reflected, in the SADF's opinion, what is the status of these documents.  The reply that was provided was the SADF as an entity no longer exists, and the SANDF can therefore not give an opinion.
 Would you regard that as an honest attempt to answer the question, seeking to elicit information about how the former SADF viewed the (indistinct) documents?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: Chairperson, yes, I think so, because that was the essence of what we had available to us.  We do not have the entire feelings of the people concerned at our finger tips, we had to work with what we had.  We called up people and if we asked them an honest question and they said they don't know or they don't want to say, we cannot force them to do so.  We were working on the inputs from the various people concerned. And we did not have that answer and I think that was why we answered it in that specific way.

MR GOOSEN: It was not possible for the (indistinct) to by way of inquiries, to establish what senior members of the former South African Defence Force would have been able to state in regard to the (indistinct) documents and the fact that they reflect continued support for Renamo in violation of the Nkomati accord?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: Chairperson, what we know about Renamo support was given in chapter 4, page 16, it is from paragraph 32 onwards, of the additional submission, that we handed in this morning.
 Should there be any further questions on this, I will try to answer them, but that is the maximum that we could get out of this aspect, is from page 416 to 417 in our submission.

MR GOOSEN: Did you know whether the SADF in fact did violate the Nkomati accord or not?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: As far as know, after the Nkomati accord, the arrangements surrounding the accord was not violated.  I say this because at one stage of the game, I was the co-chairman of the Security Committee of the Nkomati accord, trying to manage and furnish that.
 And we have investigated many allegations at the time and every one of them turned out to be negative.

CHAIRPERSON: I dare say I hear your reply General Meiring, but I also know of certain people who would definitely say that is a laughable response.

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: It is your prerogative Chairperson.

MR GOOSEN: Question 5, on that same section dealing with operation Katsen, the question is asked elaborate providing details, components and authorisation.  Why was operation Katsen terminated by the Minister in October 1987, did any unauthorised or illegal actions take place under the guidance of this operation?
 The answer provided was unknown.  In the Goniwe inquest it was established that the operation Katsen file was stolen from the Eastern Province command.  However, certain of the documentation stolen from the file seems to have been handed up by Mr Bantu Holomisa in his submission to the commission.
 If the TRC provides us with the documentation, we can probably be of more assistance.  And in respect of the second part of that, the answer is unknown.
 In other words, that is did any unauthorised or illegal actions take place under the guidance of this operation.  Did you interview or speak to anyone involved in operation Katsen?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: Chairperson, I personally did not, however, operation Katsen is also the subject of an amnesty hearing.  We were at the time given the understanding that we are not going to elaborate on aspects that are part of a hearing for amnesty and therefore we did not elaborate on that aspect further.

MR GOOSEN: Was there any attempt to investigate the circumstances of operation Katsen in order to furnish the Commission with a response, with an answer?

JOHAN LODEWYK MEIRING: I don't know Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: Document B, page 11, we asked the question, to your knowledge did any decision or any structure of the National Security Management System, give rise to actions of an unlawful or unauthorised nature?  The answer that is provided is the following: decisions that may have given rise to actions of an unlawful or unauthorised nature, could not be taken as consensus had to be reached on all issues.   Similarly, the various structures comprised persons placed there for the purpose of preventing unlawful acts, rectifying matters which required it and facilitating cooperation.  Where cases of an unlawful or unauthorised nature occurred, they were investigated and dealt with in accordance with the outcome of the investigations.   What research, investigations or actions did you take in order to arrive at this answer?