Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: I can't speak on behalf of people, but to the extent that I know Dr Van Der Horst, I certainly know that he would not have done it for that reason, but I think that he must answer for himself.  He was on the prime minister's economic advisory council, and as I mentioned before, those kinds of appointments happened from time to time in order to get sensible economic policies, help to develop them, you make your people available as to Sasol, it is a private sector company and I'm not quite sure what the significance of that is.

UNKNOWN: I think that one of the difficulties, is to; on the one hand one appreciates and understands that there was a government in power, with particular political policies, but on the other hand, it seems as if those who actually operated within that political system, business in particular in this instance, want to lay all the blame, or everything that happened during that period, on government.  And I think that what would be useful to try to understand, and this is not in the spirit of recrimination, but if it was not the case that government could actually do what it did, because there were people who shared not necessarily everything with regard to the policies, but that kind of ideological framework which persisted.  So the relationship between white people and black people, and opposition to any change which would lead to majority government because this was seen as the end of civilisation, those were the claims that were often made when leading businessmen said that we don't support one man one vote, look what happened to the rest of Africa.  And Uganda was always the example quickly snatched up, with Idi Amin.  What I'm trying to understand, is whether there was within business community and business people, an identification; not necessarily the ideology of apartheid in its cruellest form but with that kind of thinking?

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: I can only speak for my own organisation, and as I say, we have been a multi national organisation fundamentally in Africa for more than a hundred years.  In the decade since the seventies, we've been operating in many other African countries which had different governments which were totally comfortable to deal with, there was, I think our own actions speak for themselves as I've mentioned that from the early seventies and I was personally involved in that major initiative to place to actually reach out to the black community in terms of the way that we conducted our business.  So quite frankly, from within our organisation, that kind of ideology certainly didn't exist, and it actually made no sense because, the nature of our business didn't lend  it to that.  It was not the kind of business that actually makes sense for that kind of ideology to persist.

CHAIRPERSON: Alex Boraine, are you also wanting

DR BORAINE: Just two quick questions.  In your submission, one of your, perhaps, what you've referred to as possibly controversial statements, was that Old Mutual has strived to be non-political, whose financial strength has not been used as a political lever.  If one looks at the history of government and its policies; and they certainly go back long before 1948; people seem to think that's where it started, but that's where it was developed and entrenched. There was a basic policy followed; a racist policy, in this country but made so much more harsher from '48, legalise and so on; and encroached on fundamental human rights of the vast majority of the people of the country.  Old Mutual is a very powerful institution; you may not want to claim that, but certainly those of us who are familiar with something of what the Old Mutual has been and is and probably will be.  Do you think that looking back, the, apart from gaining a mandate, but just because it was fundamentally inhuman, unnatural, abnormal, that Old Mutual with it's strength and it's power and it's membership could not have played a stronger role, if only, If I realised how tough governments can become and how vicious they can become in many parts of the world.  If only to put a break, to say, you can't go on like this, publicly.  I mean you had a lot of very prominent leaders in the Old Mutual.  I can understand not having a party political hat, but apartheid was a  piece of social engineering that went way beyond party politics.  Looking back was it not some other major stand the Old Mutual could have made?

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: As I say, I've referred to the one, and I believe that with hindsight, that was the one area that I think we could have done it.  We didn't.  The interesting to me is also, that as I said, nobody, not ever ever through that whole period, did any group or a concerned group of policy holders, suggest at a AGM or anywhere else that this was to be done, so to some extent there was an agreement, a contract between ourselves and our members that came from all walks of life for us to take the stance that we've taken; for us to utilise the other avenues where business could speak in a collective voice, to make our view known and that was the view that we took, and as I say, with hindsight, one will always come to some different conclusion.  But as I said here today, I can only  say that is what happened.

DR BORAINE: Another question also coming from your presentation.  Although Old Mutual has always strived to be an equal opportunities employer, groups have tended to be unrepresented and it seems to be a fairly common thing.  Marvellous resolutions are taken.  If you look at the top structures of top companies, I'm not talking about even smaller companies; but the top structures.  It almost appears as though it is only in the last few years, and the fact that many of the people who've made submissions to us, and will come before us are almost always white and male to a large extent.  I'm just wondering, did Old Mutual not think a long time ago that the representivity was wrong and set in motion certain steps that would guarantee really top places; and I'm really talking about top structure now, not the personnel managers and like that.  Now being represented by a wider South Africa.