Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

CHAIRPERSON: For the record it is the continuation of the amnesty application of Mr Jimmy Nokawusana and four others.  The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the parties are represented as also indicated previously.  It is Thursday the 29th April 1999 and the cross-examination Nokawusana will continue this morning.
	Mr Nokawusana I remind you that you are still under oath.  Do you understand?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Mr Nokawusana, you made a statement to one of our investigators, Jabu, that is part of the bundle of documents.  I just want to know, do you confirm  the contents of that statement?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes I do confirm that.

MS PATEL: Okay.  If I could briefly take you through certain sections of that statement?  You stated that after the meeting where the decision was taken that farmers should be attacked, well not necessarily, that farmers should be forced to leave the farms and that weapons should be taken from them, you state that
"We all went to the farmer's place who was known to us as Madameni.  He saw us before we reached his house and he shot at us.  We burnt his car garage but it was closed so I don't know whether the car was inside or not.  Now can you tell us which of the five incidents that you've testified to so far that that relates to?"
Sorry Honourable Chairperson, page 28 of the bundle, paragraph 4.

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: This is this the incident after the meeting that was held at the soccer ground after the attempted meeting at the hall where people were injured at the church hall, this is the incident after the meeting that took place at the soccer ground.

MS PATEL: Which farmer's place was this, is it separate to the other five incidents that you have testified to or does it relate to that?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: This is the farm that was just across the road.  It's called Madameni, it's Mr Madameni's farm.  He was a farmer who was producing cabbages.  He was the first one that we confronted, there were also ladies or girls when we went to his place.

MS PATEL: And you're not applying for amnesty for this incident?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I did not even talk about it to my legal representative reason being that I was never charged for this incident or arrested.

MS PATEL: Okay thank you.

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: In the next paragraph you say that you went to the farm where the owner was known to us as Goud, ja I would imagine it's Goud, is that Mr Hansel's farm that you referred to there?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay in your statement to the investigator, there you stated that you assaulted him with open hands.  Is that correct?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes I was assaulting him with open hands.

MS PATEL: Yesterday in your evidence to us you went further, you said you hit him with a fist and you even kicked him, is that also correct?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I was using everything, I was hitting him by all means because I wanted to get something from him, but I remember most of the time I was assaulting him with open hands but though I did hit him with a fist at some stage.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us which of your other co-applicants was present at Mr Hansel's farm?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes I can tell you.

MS PATEL: Okay, who?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Randele Bhayi was present.

MS PATEL: Alright and who else?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Msianda Ntonga was also present.

MS PATEL: Okay please carry on, who else?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: If I am not sure as to Bonagele Bhayi, I'm not sure if he was present.

MS PATEL: Okay and who else?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: There were other people but those were the only people that I noticed.

MS PATEL: Okay can you tell us what Randele Bhayi did at Mr Hansel's farm that evening?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I do not know, I did notice of who did this and that because we were all looking for something, a common thing when we went there.

MS PATEL: But weren't you all together with Mr Hansel assaulting him, after all he was the person who was going to tell you where the weapons were?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: He was not willing to tell us where the weapons were.

MS PATEL: Was Mr Randele Bhayi not present in the room when Mr Hansel was being assaulted by you?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: He was present.

MS PATEL: Did he participate in the assault on Mr Hansel?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, he also assaulted him.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us how from what you saw?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: He was kicking him, we were also assaulting him, there was a lot of us.  I did not take a serious note what happened after kicking him because I was also taking part.

MS PATEL: Okay and Mr Ntonga, can you tell us whether he was in the room at the time?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes he was present.

MS PATEL: Did he also participate in the assault on Mr Hansel?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I cannot be that certain but they were also among us moving around as we were looking for this firearm but he was also there standing in front of him and I was not there to check who was assaulting because I was also busy and I was hitting him as we were having a common goal of getting this firearm.

MS PATEL: Now Mr Nokawusana, that's not good enough, you were present in the room when Mr Hansel was being assaulted.  We weren't there, you were there, you should be able to tell us who did what?

CHAIRPERSON: No but Ms Patel, with respect, he tells you he can't, what else do you want from him?

MS PATEL: I'll leave it for argument Honourable Chairperson.
	You also state in your statement to the investigator that you left Mr Hansel without injury.  Surely that's not right?  Do you want to withdraw that part of the statement?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I said we had assaulted him and we had tied him and we made him to lie on his back and then we left him there.

MS PATEL: Did you tie him up as well?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Who tied him up?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I also took part, assisting the others.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us what stage you tied him up or was that just before you left?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes we tied him before we left.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Did anyone try to shoot Mr Hansel?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No, no one attempted to do that.

MS PATEL: Are you absolutely certain about that?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes I'm certain, we did not attempt to shoot him instead he was showing us how to operate that firearm.

MS PATEL: Really now, Mr Nokawusana, you assault the man and then he willingly shows you how to use the firearm?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct because we had tied him and he was talking and he was showing us how to operate the firearm though he was tied up.

MS PATEL: Mr Hansel's son is present here today, Des Hansel, he says that his father told him after the incident that somebody tried to shoot but the bullet went over his head and that there was a mark on the wall that he himself had seen.  What do you say to that?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We did not attempt to shoot him, it was during the time when we were trying to make sure that this is working, the firearm was working.  As we were trying to test the firearm, the shot went to the wall but it was not aimed at him.

MS PATEL: But if he was trying to - or not trying to, if he was showing you how to use the firearm, why did you still need to test it?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We wanted to be sure that he was not telling us a lie or fooling us.

MS PATEL: So why did you shoot in that direction, why did you not go out of the house and test it?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: That did not occur to us to go outside.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us who tested the firearm please?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It was in Mr Ntonga's hands.

MS PATEL: Okay.  After you took the firearm, did all the people who came to Mr Hansel's house did you all leave together?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.