Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

JOHN MNDEBELE: We tried to discuss, there were also peace talks, but they proved futile because we would meet, discuss issues and people would continue to be dying or be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not what was done in order to avoid the assassination, but on what information was the decision to assassinate made?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We saw him as a perpetrator of the violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR HATTINGH: And on what was that based, your view that he was the perpetrator of the violence?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There was a time that he shot at a coffin where we witnessed the incident.  That was during a funeral and they attacked people who had attended the funeral.

MR HATTINGH: When was this funeral?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That was during 1990.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the only incident that you can recall that on which your committee's decision was based to assassinate Mr Zwane?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There were a lot of other incidents that took place and in some instances it was due to people's complaints.  Even when you approach him he would just tell you that he is being controlled or was being controlled by Ulundi and whatever instructions he was carrying out were from Ulundi, and he therefore didn't want to negotiate with anyone else.

MR HATTINGH: From your own personal ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What did that mean, that he received instructions from Ulundi and carried that out?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I think that meant that whatever he was perpetrating, that is the killing, the disturbance that he caused, as well as the violence, he probably receives the instructions from Ulundi from whoever.

MR HATTINGH: Did you speak to Mr Zwane yourself personally?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, I did.

MS BOSMAN: The funeral you were referring to, Mr Mndebele, whose funeral was it?  What nature was it of, this funeral, where the shooting took place?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It was the funeral of some youth where unexpectedly he came with his group to attack the mourners.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, the point of the question is, this funeral how would you describe it?  Did it have any political undertones or was it just a private funeral, as a normal funeral?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, he was an active youth.  He was involved in politics, that is the deceased.

MS BOSMAN: How did he die, do you remember?  Of natural causes or also as a result of an incident?

JOHN MNDEBELE: He was killed.  I'm not sure as to how he was killed, whether it had anything to do with politics, but he was shot.  I think he was shot by the police, if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he was involved in politics.  On which side of the divide was he involved?

JOHN MNDEBELE: He was a member of the ANC.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Jwi Zwane was only assassinated in July 1991.  Now, how could this incident of the funeral during 1990 have a bearing on your decision to assassinate Mr Zwane?

MR PATEL: Objection, Mr Chairman.  Hold it.  The witness has testified that it wasn't the only information on which they based their decision.  To suggest to the witness through this question that they based it solely on what happened at the funeral is totally unfair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, aside from that, Mr Hattingh, I think the trend of the questioning in that regard was, "Why did you think or why was he earmarked for assassination.  What made you think he was a cause of the violence", and hence that type of answer came through.  He did of course, and Mr Patel is correct, says that that was not the only incident, there were many other instances which were indicative to them, rightly or wrongly, which indicated that he was partly at least to the cause of the violence and that's why they made that decision.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Perhaps, Mr Mndebele, could you then explain further what other information were at your disposal at the time when the decision was made for the assassination of Mr Zwane?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There was also another incident that took place and the violence even stretched to Piet Retief as well as Davel and Ermelo as well.  People were being killed and victimised.  That's when we realised that as members of the community we were not safe, we had to take action.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mndebele, tell me, when you confronted him and he said that look, he's only carrying out instructions from Ulundi, when did that take place?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That was before he got killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, well.  Yes.

JOHN MNDEBELE: I think it was, I'm still trying to think of the year, it was early 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after the violence had started?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what gave rise to that answer?  What did you confront him with?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I was telling him that we should work together as members of the community in order to try and quell the violence, that there should be some tolerance amongst the political organisations, that people should have the freedom to affiliate with whatever political organisations that they wished to affiliate with so that the members of the public would be protected, because quite a number of them were innocent victims and I was voicing my concern to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think he was the appropriate person to raise the issue of the violence with?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It's because he was the leader of the Black Cats.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: This person, Mr Mzwandile Gushu, did you know him prior to him getting the instruction to assassinate Mr Zwane?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I didn't know him before then.

MR HATTINGH: Did you meet him at the time when he was given the instruction for the assassination?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I never met him.

MR HATTINGH: Was it discussed at your meeting that this person Gushu would be instructed for the assassination?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, we discussed it at a meeting.  We were a committee, four of us.  We discussed it amongst ourselves, there was also a chief commander, Jabi Mkhwanazi.  He's the one who came up with the decision that he will speak to a person who would carry this out, because what was important was peace and stability and what we could do in order to gain back or maintain peace and stability.

MR HATTINGH: If Mkhwanazi was the chief commander, why was he not instructed or requested to in general bring the situation under control?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We were not fully conversant with the positions or we were not really concerned about positions that people occupied.  What we wanted was to maintain peace and order and we decided that we could do anything in our power in order to try and keep the peace.  We did not have a link, that is between ourselves and Gushu.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know at the time whether Mr Gushu was employed by the ANC or a member of the ANC or a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Firstly, I would say that we did not know that he had been deployed at Ermelo area.  We got to know that at a later stage.

MR HATTINGH: Was Mr Gushu paid for the work he had to do?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, he wasn't going to be paid, but he did it for the organisation.

MR HATTINGH: You make the statement that Gushu was also instructed in general to bring the situation under control.  What was the idea?  What was discussed?  How would one person bring the situation under control?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Could you repeat the question?

MR HATTINGH: In paragraph sixteen (16) on page thirteen (13) of the bundle of documents, in the second last sentence thereof, you say, "Gushu was also instructed in general to bring the situation under control".  Now, the question is, how would one person, what was your idea, your discussions, how would one person succeed on his own to bring the situation under control?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That was a time of violence.  He was going to use any method or technique that was going to make him successful.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have control over the SDUs?