Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-12

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now at paragraph 34 you state that this operation was discussed for some time and ultimately it was decided that it had to be carried out.  What modus operandi for the execution of the attack did you decide to use?  How were you going to attack Mr Jacks Modibane?

DERICK SKOSANA: We first went to Mr Jacks's house and we thought we were going to find him asleep and we were going to use the same modus of operandi to attack his house as the ones we used for Shabangu.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And Mr Motembu?

DERICK SKOSANA: We had a problem to locate Mr Motembu's place, because Conrad was not sure as to where he was staying.  He was staying far from these other two targets and Conrad had a problem and to locating his house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you had two F1 hand grenades.  Was each to be used for Mr Modibane and Mr Shabangu?  Were you going to throw a hand grenade for each of your targets?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, because we decided that since we cannot locate Mr Motembu's house we are going to use two, each grenade for each target.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what would have been the role of Mr Joe Nkuna?  Was that discussed as you have indicated that the operation was discussed for quite some time?  What would have been his role in all these attacks?

DERICK SKOSANA: He was always with us and as a commander of the operation, but we did not discuss as to what for Joe to use specifically so he did not have anything with him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So on the 11th of November when the operation was discussed extensively, it had already been decided that Joe would not have any active participation in the attacks you were going to launch on your targets?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, according to the information that I had and I knew that we only had two AK47s and two hand grenades and we decided that Conrad will have one AK and I will have one AK and Solly will have both hand grenades.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just to divert from the substance of what I have just asked.  To your knowledge did Solly work in the Intelligence Unit of MK?

DERICK SKOSANA: No, according to my knowledge, no he was not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How was he associated with MK?

DERICK SKOSANA: Solly was an activist since 1985 and he was once sentenced to Robben Island and usually people stay with cadres in Robben Island and it is simple that you, things that you are taught about and the techniques of the guerrillas and when he was released in Robben Island, from Robben Island he trained internally here in this country and that is how he started as an underground activist.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So if Mr Joe Nkuna insists that he was in the Intelligence Unit would you dispute it?

DERICK SKOSANA: I did not have sufficient information.  Maybe Joe might have sufficient information on that aspect and I will not deny that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: You told us that Joe ordered you to attack Mr Mtembu's house too.  Is that correct?

DERICK SKOSANA: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And now he is accompanying you on this mission, could he not point out where Mr Mtembu is living?

DERICK SKOSANA: I do not know, but what I know is that before we went and attacked that house we monitored this Comrade. We tried as to find out where they were staying, but we failed to locate Mr Mtembu's address.

ADV DE JAGER: But he, being the commander, did he not find out where is the address.  Did he assist you in finding the address or did he not partake in this operation of finding the address?

DERICK SKOSANA: Joe also gave us a direction, but he was not sure as to where Mr Mtembu was staying.  The person who usually accompanied us was Conrad and he was the one who knew as to where the Comrades were staying.

ADV DE JAGER: And on that very night to planned to attack three houses and you did not know where the other house would be?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, we could not find transportation and we were not sure, as well, as to where Mr Mtembu was staying and Conrad was not certain and then on that night we decided to attack only two houses.

ADV DE JAGER: How far is these two houses, how far are they apart?  The house of Jacques and the house of Shabangu?

DERICK SKOSANA: It is one section, but I am not quite sure, because I do not know this township that well.

ADV DE JAGER: You see I find it difficult to believe that you have planned to attack three houses at the same night, because if you are throwing a grenade here, it is an explosion and the people in the vicinity would come out and they would look round and now there is another explosion nearby.  Would you not risk to be seen?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Especially if they are on foot.

DERICK SKOSANA: If ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Especially if they are on foot, they are not ...

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... using any vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: And you are on foot?

DERICK SKOSANA: Let me explain.  If only we had a transport it was possible for us to round up all three targets, but because we did not have transport then that is why we decided on the nearby or ...

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, well, even then you had two targets.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And running from one target to the other after an explosion, people coming out and you will be seen.

DERICK SKOSANA: We knew that immediately after we finished attacking one house, people will concentrate on the house which is on fire and they will not concentrate on the one that we were going to attack.  So there was that possibility as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Skosana, did you not state during the Nkunas' trial that you had decided to abort the attack on Mr Mtembu, because you did not know where Mr Mtembu's house was and that you had before the attack on Shabangu was launched, undertaken a recognisance through the assistance of Conrad Nkuna and because you could not locate Mr Mtembu's house it never was your intention on the evening of the 11th or the tenth to the 11th of November, it was never your intention to launch an attack on Mr Mtembu?

DERICK SKOSANA: It has been a long time since this trial and some of the things I do not really remember and I think I have put it clear in Mr Nkuna's trial that we did not know as to where he was located so we were not going to attack his house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So when the operation was discussed extensively on the 11th of November you had already as a group decided not to launch an attack on Mr Mtembu's house?  So he was removed from the list?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, there was that problem, because we were not sure as to where he was staying.  He was going to be attacked, but we did not know his whereabouts.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How were you going to attack him if you do not his whereabouts?

DERICK SKOSANA: We were going to continue trying to locate him and we were going to monitor him and tail him and Conrad was going to find out as to exactly where he was staying and we were only waiting to identify his house positively.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, on paragraph 37 you state that you went to Mr Shabangu's house and, this is what you say at paragraph 37,
"At Joe Shabangu's place we thought that our intended victim was there."
Why do you use those words "you thought" that he was there?  No, you say you thought Mr Shabangu ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... was there.  Why do you use the word "think"?  Why do you think that he was there?  Was he not there?

DERICK SKOSANA: When we arrived at his house his car was parked outside so we thought he was inside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: One further matter please.  You stayed at Mr Adam Myanga's place.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that the same person who transported you too?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So he had a motor car?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, he has got a car.

ADV DE JAGER: I do not know, could you perhaps, do you know of any reason why he could not transport you that night?

DERICK SKOSANA: No, I do not know.