Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-17

RUSSELL ALLY: And this charge of public violence, did it happen long after this?  Because you say you weren't charged immediately but then there was a case of public violence, wasn't there?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: There was no public violence charge
against ourselves or myself.  If only the police did charge them, there would have been a trial and thereafter they would have been discharged.

MR MALAN: May I just before Mr Manthata asks a question, let me ask you again, the youth riots at the time, the throwing of the stones, were you aware of that, could you see it, how far were you from that happening?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: I was an adult man.  I only heard about that a day before, I think so, or maybe three days before.  At bus ranks there was violence.  I was told that the people have thrown stones at busses.

MR MALAN: Was this going on when you were shot at, that you're aware of?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: By that time the situation was very calm, there was nothing.

MR MALAN: Okay thank you very much.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Joel, was it possible for the police during that time to be around the streets and just shoot people for nothing?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: That's what we heard, that people were just arrested and then taken to a so-called stadium at the police station and then they were just harassed and tortured there, that's all we know.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You don't even know if there could have been a possibility of the police chasing after thieves or criminal offenders?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: Please clarify your question Sir?

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is, we don't know clearly who the police were, because we say the situation was just cool, there was no political activity around.  Now was it possible that the police could have been there searching for criminal offenders?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: No, according to my knowledge, the police were just patrolling and they would start harassing people.  They didn't want to see any group of people.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In other words, if I understand you well, they were patrolling?  The people had the spirit of fighting apartheid, and coming together they would be dispersed by the police, thinking that these are the people who are fighting apartheid.

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: Yes I agree with you, because the police didn't want to see any group of people.  It's funny because we were only two.  They could have stopped us and asked us where we were heading to, so that we could give them explanations, but they just decided to shoot at us.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just before you go, let me just share with you what our investigative officer found out, because he actually came to Mahwelereng to try and see what was happening and what the police docket was saying.  There is another eye witness to this incident, a Mr Jerry Masinga. Do you know Jerry Masinga, who we want to get a statement from?
 Now according to the station commissioner at Mahwelereng, in his account he says that the victims, which I imagine he's referring to you and to Moses, he says were stoning busses and cars, and that is why the police actually opened fire.  What's your comment on that.  That's what the station commissioner at Mahwelereng actually said to our investigators, on the day of the incident the victims were stoning busses and cars?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: That is false information.  Because if that was the truth ...(indistinct) with public violence, they should have shot at us.  When we fell down they must ...(indistinct) us and arrest us and hospitalise us under police guard.  I mean in a true sense.

MR MALAN: Mr Teffo, I think there's a misunderstanding again, the information is not that you were accused of having done it, but that certain youths were stoning busses and public transport at the time, that was no reference to yourselves.  I think you misunderstood Dr Ally.  The issue is whether that happened or not and you in your evidence, when we asked you said, you heard that something like that happened the day before or the day before that and they were searching for these people, whereas the information that Dr Ally is referring to is that it happened shortly before you were shot.  And to share with you again, the statement under oath which the Reverend Motsobani will talk to, his information is clearly the same, that that stoning incident by the youth took place at 7 o'clock, whereas you were shot at at about 10 to eight.  So it happens and that relates to Mt Manthata's question. Why would the police have been there if everything was calm already? So are you pretty sure that it didn't happen that day, because all the other evidence is pointing to the fact that it in fact did happen shortly before you were shot?

MALOSE JOEL TEFFO: As I've already explained, we were at place called Sehahapeng, not far from Mahwelereng.  If we were aware of the unrest maybe we should place ourselves at a safe area. You could not just move even during the night, because we'll be aware that there was unrest.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you very much Teffo, the reason that we're asking these questions is it's very important for us to try and establish the context, to have an accurate idea as possible of what was going on so that was the spirit in which we were asking the questions.  Thanks for coming forward and sharing with us what happened and our investigative teams, this is also one of the matters which they are certainly following up.  Thank you very much.