bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

MR SMIT: So at no stage did he make any speeches during these explosions, where these things were tested?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: No, not that he made any speeches about it.

MR SMIT: Very well.  And at that stage, was he there in his capacity as the Secretary-General of the CP, where you were testing these explosive devices?  It was not as a member of Toekomsgesprek.

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: We accepted it as such, that he was there as a representative of CP and not of Toekomsgesprek.

MR SMIT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMIT

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Mr Kruger, I see on page 94 you mention the name of Christo Smit, is he the same person who was helping you to fill in the application form for amnesty?  On page 94, number B.

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: So he was also part of the Paul Kruger group?  Part of your group.

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Yes, he was part of the Paul Kruger group.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
	Mr Kruger you are excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Smit.

MR SMIT: That is the case for Mr Kruger, Mr Chairman.  I would then call Mr Martinus Christoffel Ras, that is the third applicant.
Amnesty Hearings — Witbank — 2000-01-31

MR KOOPEDI: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That closes Mr Nyalunga's application.

MR KOOPEDI: That is his application, Chairperson, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are we in a position to proceed with the Evidence-in-Chief of Mr Dube?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes we are Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

COMMISSIONER: Good morning Mr and Mrs Bapela. We are pleased to have you.  Today is also one of those difficult days in Alexandra when people will be reminded of the time in the eighties when the community decided to get rid of inappropriate leaders and that led to civil conflict between the police and community leaders who were trying to set up alternative structures to provide leadership within the community and we hope people will be coming before us who will assist not only us but the community of Alexandra as well to get a clear picture of where you are coming from.  Before you give your testimony as it is the tradition I would like you to stand up so as to take an oath before this Commission.

OBED BAPELA: (s.s.)

COMMISSIONER: Also I would like to welcome Mrs Connie Bapela who is sitting next to Obed.  As it is a tradition I will ask one of the commissioners to assist you in giving your testimony and for that purpose you will be assisted by our chairperson, Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Obed, I would like to welcome both you and Connie to the hearings of the Commission.  Before you begin to tell us about the gross human rights violations that affected you, I wonder if you could give me a few details about yourself, your family, your own involvement in Alex which led to the incident that you are actually complaining about.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 BAPELA

OBED BAPELA: Yes my name is Obed Bapela.  I am here today with my wife, Constance known as Connie and married with three children.  Both of us have been just in detentions for many, many years until 1989 when we finally settled and have been together as a family.  I was born in Alexandra and have been an activist in Alexandra since 1976 to date and I have grown to be a leader in the community and also in the province of Gauteng.  Presently I am a member of the Provincial Legislature of Gauteng, serving in the committee of safety and security, as the chairperson of the standing committee and also a member of the African National Congress, one of the top officials in the Gauteng province, being the deputy secretary of the ANC.  Thanks.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you want to firstly I think what we will do is deal with the time when the house that you were living in was bombed and then I do want to ask you to deal with your knowledge of the six day war and specifically some of the things which arose during that period.  But let's get the question of the bombing of the house out of the way first.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

MS MKHIZE: We welcome you.

KOKANE ISAAC DITSHEGO: (s.s.)

MS MKHIZE: I will ask one of my colleagues to help you give your evidence and Mr Tom Manthata will help you give your evidence.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Ditshego please relax but I trust that everything will be in order.  Can you tell us about yourself so that we should be able to know where are you working, your family situation.  I was just asking you to give us a brief statement about yourself.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We want to salute you and your colleagues for the dedication that you showed when you were at risk yourselves in the sorts of things that you were doing.  We had always hoped that we would have a police force, a traffic police force, the SAP and others who would not be enemies of the people because most of the time, before 1994, our people would not have said that they regarded the police and the army as their friends as those who existed to protect them.  So when you had units like your own acting in the manner in which you have just described, it stood out in stark contrast.  We are very glad, I mean, that a transformation is happening in the SAPS.  We can now call them our police who are increasingly becoming the kind of police we want to see in the New South Africa, dedicated.  It is clear that in that police force, as we hear in the amnesty applications in the de Kock trial and so on, that there were very many, not just bad, evil elements.  We hope, I mean, that they will see that our people, remarkably, do not want to revenge, most of them, they do not want to pay back.  They are not filled with hatred.  They are filled with sadness.  They want to know many things and we hope that those in the different structures who know that they committed awful deeds, will come forward and tell South Africa the things that they did so that the wounds of the past, having been opened, will be cleansed and will then have the possibility of being healed.   We need to have the truth and many of these people who carried out all these awful deeds know that it would be very difficult for us to arrive at the truth unless they come and ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 P JACA
they confess.  When they confess, they will usually, they will certainly be forgiven and they may even get amnesty so that they do not have to face trials and that our nation can then move beyond the past and concentrate on the present and the future.  Thank you very much.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much, indeed, for coming.  I did say there were two events which would take place.  We are very grateful for Patrick and Faith for coming in.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

YASMINE SOOKA: Why do you think that they wanted to attack you, what was their motive?

MR MABUZA: It was because of my ANC political involvement.

YASMINE SOOKA: When you went to the Wynberg police station, who was the policeman on duty who took your statement?

MR MABUZA: They have transferred those policemen, they are not stationed here any longer.  Even when I tried to look around for them I could not see them around.  However, the captains are still here.  When I tried to explain the case to them they started hating me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you have your medical records?

MR MABUZA: If I can be given a chance to go to the hospital I can fetch them.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MS SEROKE: Mr Mabuza, you mentioned three people who attacked you.

MR MABUZA: I would say the three people I have mentioned are the people I know, but there were many people who attacked me.

MS SEROKE: Are they still alive?

MR MABUZA: One of them died because he was shot in the very same area.  One went to Natal, the other one is still around.  When he sees me he runs for cover.

MS SEROKE: Is he still around?

MR MABUZA: Yes, he is still around.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to follow on that, Mr Mabu.  Would you be able to put us in touch with his address, tell us where he is, the one who is still around?

MR MABUZA: I would say in my yard, he is still saying in my ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 S MABUZA
yard, the one that is around, he is Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions that anyone has?  Mr Mabuza, the story that you have told is ... (intervention).

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mabuza, if Mr Mkhize still lives in your yard, how do the two of you get on with each other nowadays?

MR MABUZA: I am no longer staying in that yard myself. I am staying in a flat, because I did not have a place to stay. I was given a place at the flats. When I arrived there I could barely walk.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabuza, we wish to offer you our condolences with what happened to you.  Thank you for coming to tell us the story.  It is not a pleasant story. It is one which we have heard of several times in the past few days.  It tells of a time which is not very long ago, where anger was obviously playing a big role.  What we will try and do is follow up for you the whole question of your pension and also follow up what we can in terms of the report and why nothing was done about your case.  We cannot offer you comfort, but obviously you draw strength yourself in the fact that you survived this dreadful attack,  and the fact that you do have people around you who can support you and who show and give you strength. We realise that in a community like Alexandra, this is a very important factor in everybody's life.  We salute that and we salute you for your courage and for your determination to keep going.
 Thank you very much for coming.  Thank you.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

MARGARET MADLANA: It is my child.

COMMISSIONER: We would like to thank you and I would also like you to stand up to take oath before you give your evidence.

MARGARET MADLANA: (s.s.)

COMMISSIONER: As usual I will ask one of the commissioners, Mr Hugh Lewin, to help you in giving your testimony.  As you have already said that you ask God to give you the power we will give you over to Hugh Lewin.

MR LEWIN: We thank you for coming to the Commission and we would like you to feel as relaxed as possible.  You are amongst friends. You are coming to tell us of a very terrible incident that took place in February 1986 and we would like you in your own time and in your own words to tell us what happened.  This concerns your son.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

MS MKHIZE: Would you like to tell us who is the person accompanying you.

MRS MALAKOANE: It is Ace's brother.

MS MKHIZE: We thank you.  We would like one of us to help you in giving your evidence.  Mr Hugh Lewin will help you.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much, I would like to welcome you and we are very pleased that you are here today to tell us the story of what happened to Ace Longwane.  You were very closely involved with him but if you could tell us what happened on that night in April 1986.  In your own words.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

MR MKHELE: I am Fanwell Mkhele.

MS MKHIZE: Will you please stand up and take oath.

FANWELL MKHELE: (s.s.)

MS MKHIZE: As you have already heard the testimony given by your sister I would like you to add here and there things that you know, especially as to what happened in court and thereafter.

MR MKHELE: It is true that she doesn't know some of the things because it was on a Tuesday, he went to work and he never came back. Early the next morning we heard that children were shot and through that I went to the government mortuary and I found him there.  Then we had to transfer him to another mortuary.  The comrades came and took him because he was also shot with other comrades and the funeral was arranged.  One day we were called in court, we were shown the white people who shot him.  There were three of them but we didn't write down their names.  In court when they told us they said we have got lawyers from the Legal Aid Board.  They are going to help you in your case.  They told us we must wait for a letter and up to today we never received a letter calling us to go back to court.  Until we hear about the Truth Commission.  That is how the child died.  He was staying with me.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  I would like to thank you very much and I would like to give the other commissioners a chance to ask questions.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you have a chance to talk about this meeting that was to be held that very day before he could go
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 MKHELE
to work?   What I am asking is that did he know that there was a stayaway.  Were you aware that the following day there was going to be a general meeting of the community at the stadium?

MRS MKHELE: I would say that they themselves they didn't have a stayaway because they were working every day.  In the work place there was no stayaway.  They had to go to work.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So you were aware that should he go to work that might endanger his life.

MRS MKHELE: I can't hear very well but I would say that in his work place there was not such a thing like a stayaway.  They had to go to work every day.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.  Your evidence is part of what we have already heard that around the time of the struggle many people were injured yet they were just innocent, not fighting anyone.  We have heard this many times, as you have already explained also that he was going to work not being part of this people in struggle but he met this ordeal.  We will take back the statement to the investigation unit to further investigate about the police and more information and the police will be brought forward to confess if they have done that or not. When we have done this much we will get back in touch with you.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

CHAIRPERSON: I wish we have the words to comfort you for the loss that you suffered.  You lost ten relatives and three friends which was usually called black on black violence.  As now it comes out that there were some people behind this violence.  Now the truth is coming out that there were people who wanted the black people to kill each other.  As we have witnessed one of the cases in this incident.  We will try and investigate as to why this happened and also in relation to the case we will try and find out as to why the police did not protect you when you asked them to protect you.  They left you open for attack.  We will also try to investigate as to how your trial was conducted and also why they promised you to hold the trial in camera and later they did not.  However, these things
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
10 M MKHUANAZI
will never bring back the deceased.  However, the truth will come out and heal our wounds so that when the time comes for us to reconcile, we can reconcile with open hands and open hearts.  We will also ask as to how does it happen that people who can be chased from their homes and not allowed or forcible removed, you are not allowed to go back and stay there.
 As we know very well that people in Alexandra live peacefully.  Also like to find out if possible can they go back to that peaceful situation or peaceful environment where people are reconciled and happy.

MAPHANGA MKHUANAZI: There is one thing I have forgotten.  My brother ran to call the police.  He arrived at the police station.  They told him that they do not have the cars.  However, when the shooting started it took about ten minutes for them to arrive.  They should have heard the sounds of an AK47 because it was very loud.  I wonder if they did not hear the sound of the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mama.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

SEKITLA ANNA MOGANO: When I went to 12th Avenue they referred me to 14th Avenue and I went there.  I was told that he was not there.  Even the friends who were staying on 12th Avenue.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 MOGANO
They told me the same thing that they didn't see him on that particular day.

MS MKHIZE: Was he a student or was he working at the time?

SEKITLA ANNA MOGANO: He was working.

MS MKHIZE: What about his friends that he was working with?

SEKITLA ANNA MOGANO: It is old man, old married man.  We didn't go to them and they didn't see him on that day.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Mam.  Thank you for coming.  One of the things that the Truth Commission is charged with is to assist families with information which will clarify for them as to what happened to people who disappeared and we are hoping that our investigative unit will assist us to be able to confirm whether people died so that families can be able to perform whatever rituals which are important for them in honour of their beloved ones.  In our case it is sad to hear that you lost both your sons during the difficult years in the history of our country.  We will be in touch with you with whatever information which we have got.  We have noted the name of the child, although we didn't get the name of the child, Matsepe's child, we have noted that there is a child whom you are looking after who needs assistance with education.  We thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

LESORO HILDA MOHLOMI: I don't know what to say or what to ask but I would like to say to the people of Alexandra they should make a tombstone for all the people who have been killed on that day.    Many people left Alexandra and many people stood with us and they tried to comfort us.  They were crying together with us and I would like the people who did
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
10 MOHLOMI
these things, who hurt the people of Alexandra to come forward just like De Kock and to tell the truth in front of the people. Maybe we will forgive them because even when we  pray we ask the Lord to forgive us as we are forgiving the people who have sinned us.  And I would like to forgive them because if I don't forgive them the Lord will not forgive me because I pray to God every day to give me power to forgive those who have sinned me and I would like them to come forward as we are here today and to tell the truth.  Maybe if they did that we will forgive them.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you, Mam and you have said words about forgiveness and we support you in this idea, we ask people who know something or who have done things here in Alexandra to come forward and to ask forgiveness to all the people.  Thank you, Mam.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: When they tried to come they were refused entrance.  Others were arrested in church who tried to force their way to the funeral.  They wanted them to arrest them.  Some of them were arrested on that day because they tried to come to the funeral.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you receive any treatment for your health?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: I just go to the clinics.  There is no proper treatment.  I just go to the clinics or General Hospital for my eye problem.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you receive any kind of pension?
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 MONAGENG

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: No, I don't get any pension.

YASMINE SOOKA: How do you support your grandchild?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: I used to support him while I was working but now I can't cope any more because I am not working.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama, I thank you for sharing that with us but I do want to say that I think it is absolutely disgraceful that the sanctity of a church was not respected and that anybody could go into the church to break up a meeting and to shoot people inside that church desecrates that building.  Thank you.  I will pass you on to the Chairperson.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you, Mam.  I will see if others have got some questions.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Was Jacob still at school at the time?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: No, he was a student.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Where was he attending school?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: He was at Minerva High School.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What happened to the girl that has got a child?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: She was still at school and I had to take over, I had to support her child because she was still at school.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Where is the girl at the moment?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: She is around, she is still attending school.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is it possible that she can help you in supporting the child?

MATSILISO PAULINA MONAGENG: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you, Mam.

MS MKHIZE: We thank you Miss Monageng.  The child that you are talking about he was already playing a leadership role in society.  It is sad to acknowledge that the freedom we are enjoying today it had to cost so many young lives,
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 MONAGENG
innocent lives like this one, but what I like in this community is that people have made a commitment that it will be important to honour and remember all the young people who died in pursuit of liberation struggles.  We thank you very much for coming and as you meet with our councillors they will be able to guide you as to how to access special health care following our recommendation.  Thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-28

SNOEKIE MZAMBU: With my colleagues we are Christians.  We are helping our people throughout a crisis of this nature.  We may know and hear that the politicians are doing this and that and that, we don't go very much deep into the whole (indistinct) but all what we need as the messengers of God we need to bring about peace in the community.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, Father.

DR RANDERA: Father, I want to have one more go at my question if you don't mind.  You have quite rightly come forward and identified the mass funerals, the killings during the vigils.  But I just want to take on something you just said now that you are a Christian and therefore in a sense you try and help everybody.

SNOEKIE MZAMBU: That is true.

DR RANDERA: Now when I asked that question about asking people to come forward we also know that in Alex community courts for example took place and during that time people were perhaps fairly, perhaps unfairly, targeted.  We also know of the killings that took place of Inkatha people in this community.  Now I am asking are you making that same sort of appeal to those people to come forward?

SNOEKIE MZAMBU: Let me just give you an explanation before I answer you.  The Commission, as far as I understand it, the purpose of it is to bring about peace as well.  So to bring about this peace is that the offenders should come and confess, that makes it easy and then the Commission, the TRC, they will be able to forgive.  That I think we have got
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
10 MZAMBU
it in the Bible as well.  When you want to be forgiven your sins by God you have to come forward and confess.  Then you will be forgiven.  You are doing a very good job, I like what you are doing.  And that is why I still emphasise that.  Those people let them come out.  Definitely people will stop crying here when they come which they can see, even if it will be temporarily that heartbreak but it will be the same instance if someone comes and say okay here is the body of your son which I have killed him like this one which was here.  She wants only to see the body, where is the body.  She knows for certain that she was killed.  Now only to bring about peace this is only the method, they should come out then these people will be satisfied.

YASMINE SOOKA: Father, thank you for coming forward today.  You are right that the burial of a body is a right and you have in Alex struggled very, very hard often to assert that right on behalf of those who were defenceless, those who needed you most and I think the community will commend you and your fellow priests for what they did for Alex during that time.  We are also conscious of your appeal to perpetrators to come forward and again we issue the appeal to those who have committed gross human rights violations, be they on any side, that they should come forward to the Commission and apply for amnesty.  However, I want to just set you right on one thing.  It is not the Commission who can forgive ...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

MS MKHIZE: Those people who said she went away with the Zulus, the Inkatha people, when you look at the whole picture, what do you understand from this?

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: I think maybe as they killed the other sister
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 MRS NLOPHE
they have taken her and killed her also.

MS MKHIZE: If you remember well, the last time you saw her?

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: When she got the mssage I think there were many people around her. It wasn't at home.  That's where we went to collect the remains of the deceased.  That was the time I last saw her.

MS MKHIZE: In your opinion, do you think those people who killed her sister might have taken her away at the same time?

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: I think that's possible.

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: Were they neighbours?

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: I don't know, because I don't say there, I am staying at 14 and my daughter was staying at Fourth Avenue.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce?

MS SEROKE: Mrs Nlope, was Nomasuntu staying with you at home? Or did she have her own home?

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: She had a boyfriend.

MS SEROKE: When they say she was taken by the Zulus, was she forcefully taken away or was she just in their company?

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: I don't remember, I didn't ask much about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sooka has another question.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mamma, earlier on I said to you that there was another witness who named the same men. I have just looked at his statement, Mr Mabuza, who came this morning and he stays at the same address, at Fourth Avenue. It is the same ...

TUHLBI MARGARET NLOPHE: All I am saying is that the person who might have reported the matter is Pietersen Nkoza, he is my son-in-law and I don't know the others, because I don't know where Nkoza is staying, I only know the yard.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 MRS NLOPHE

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma Nhlope, again, it is not easy to offer you words of comfort, but you have shown us your own great courage in coming to talk to us like this and telling us this.  That will strengthen us in trying to help you in finding out what happened and coming to some resolution about this.  You can never regain what you have lost.  But you have told the pain, you have shared the pain and we hope that goes some way towards making some reconciliation and some change in your life. We hope also that the tensions and the anger and the hatred which is evident here in the story that you have told, between people living very closely together, we hope that that is something of the past, and that the work of the Commission will be able to get rid of those enmities and bring people together in the way that they should live together in a community and not fight as they have done in this case.
 Thank you very much for coming.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, mam.  As I have already said that we do not have enough words to comfort you.  What we are going to try is to investigate and get the truth of what actually happened.  How did it happen, how was he shot, even if he was doing something wrong, but why would he be shot at the back, because if was shot in the front, that would look like he was fighting.  We are going to investigate all those things.  We as the Truth Commission is to try to get the truth of all these things so that we will be able to say.  Even if it is difficult, at least now we know what the truth is.  Thank you very much mam.

JULIA NKUEMYANE: Thank you.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to call the next, in fact, what are three witnesses, all talking about the same incident.  It is Hilda Phahle, Mamokete Malaza and Esther Mtembu.  If the three could please come forward.  Will you all be all right in English?  What language would be most suitable for you?    You will not need the ear-phones if you speak in English.  Mrs Phahle, if you put the ear-phones on it would be easier. Can you hear that better?  Is that all right, can you hear better now?  Is that all right?  You should be able to hear it in English with the microphone.  We just want you to be comfortable.  Is everybody comfortable?  Ladies, are you all comfortable and can you hear us?  Okay.
 Thank you very much for coming.  Please, we apologise for the fact that we are sitting up here and you are sitting down there. It doesn't mean anything.  We are very much on the same level, you are here with friends, as you will have noticed.  We are very grateful to you for coming.  If I could just ask that all of you together don't need to stand to take the oath.

HILDA PHAHLE: (Duly sworn, states).

MAMOKETE MALAZA: (Duly sworn, states).

ESTHER MTEMBU: (Duly sworn, states).
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2

CHAIRPERSON: I have pleasure in introducing Joyce Seroke who will leave you in your evidence.  Thank you, Joyce.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Phahle and Mrs Lydia Malaza and Mrs Esther Mtembu, we welcome you to these hearings today.  We have decided to club you together because the three of you have in common and share a very terrible tragic incidence. You, as parents, as mothers, lost your sons, daughter-in-law and daughter in one of the worst massacres that happened outside the border of this country, in Botswana.
 I will start with Mrs Phahle, and ask her to tell us about George, her son, his life, what he did before he went into exile and briefly describe how she heard about this terrible and tragic massacre.

HILDA PHAHLE: George is my son and was self-employed.  He used to sell wigs and then at one time he had a dry-cleaning business and so he went on all the time, being self-employed, doing things for himself.  You asked many questions.

MS SEROKE: Just take your time and go on and tell us about your son and why he left the country and how you discovered regarding what happened to him.

HILDA PHAHLE: Shall I read it?

MS SEROKE: Yes, please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

MAMOKETE MALAZA: I will just add to what she has said, because she has said all the things that I would have said. I was woken up on the 14th of June, when she asked me have I heard ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
12 MRS M MALAZA
what has happened.  She said everything has been destroyed in Botswana.  I wanted to know why. She said our children are no longer alive. I couldn't answer at all.  As she proceeded with the explanation ... (END OF TAPE 4 - SIDE B).
 ... they said that they were told by the South African Police.  We were hurt and we made arrangements to travel to Botswana. On our arrival at Botswana we saw that all the cars were damaged.  Just before we went into the house we could see that it was a big thing.

MS SEROKE: Please take your time and rest if you need to.

MAMOKETE MALAZA: We went into the house.  As we entered the house we found that everything was damaged, the TV, everything, even the lounge suite.  Even though I tried to bring the lounge suite to try and maybe upholster it, but it was dirty, everything was just damaged.  But I was wondering as to why would they kill them and even damage everything that we could perhaps console ourselves with.  Really, they killed Lindi, they really killed her.

MS SEROKE: We know that this hurts.  Just take your time.

MAMOKETE MALAZA: We never managed to spend the night, we could not even sleep. The situation was just tense.  We made arrangements to go to the mortuary the following day.  When we got there we established that they were dead.  As to why they were killed we don't know.  They were killed because they were members of the ANC.
 After her graduation in Gonye, they were looking for her because she was an ANC member. Therefore she ran away.  She was the eldest daughter. I had hopes that she would help me through, to support me, but only to find out that I was lying to myself.  They would kill her before the time came for her to help me.  
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
13
 I don't know what to say.  They destroyed our lives.  From thereon I am just a helpless person. I can't go anywhere.  From thereon I was just a useless person.   I was so hurt. I don't know how can I tell you, but we buried them.  Even though we buried them far away, because when we wished to visit their graves, it seemed to be very far. We don't know what to do. If it is possible for them to be brought back so that we are able to visit them whenever we feel like it.  That is the end of my testimony.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.   I will proceed now to Mrs Esther Mtembu, who will tell us her side of the story, regarding Joseph.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-28

YASMINE SOOKA: Tata we would like to thank you for having come today.  It is always good for the Commission to hear the stories of people as far back as 1963 because that is when the work of the Commission actually starts.  We have to look at the period from 1963 to 1993.  Your story is quite awful and your family have suffered greatly but despite that you have been able to come and tell us what happened to you.  We have taken note of what you have told us.  We will pass that on to the Committee.  We have taken note particularly of the names that you have given us because they are the same ones that come up over and over again.  We will look at what happen and can be done about what you have said.  We have also taken note of the fact that you are a veteran. We know that the government has instituted measures to make sure that veterans receive some kind of pension and we will make sure that you are put in touch with the right authorities. Thank you for having come today. We thank you for sharing
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 TLALE
that with us.  
 Just to remind people that the Commission's brief is to look at human rights violations that took place from the period March 1960 to December 1993.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

MR LEWIN: Now the second one will take place.  It will not take very long and it is, as you will see, a completely different interlude, but it gives me great pleasure to call back, to recall one of our first witnesses who came here on Monday who has a particularly different task to perform.  Linda Tuala, would you like to come forward.  Thank you.  The chair is yours very briefly, Sir.

MR TUALA: I have a letter that I would like to read to our Bishop, Desmond Tutu.  In fact after asking Jeanette to read this letter I would like to shake your hand to Reverend Desmond Tutu because I remember those days when we were still resisting.  He helped us save Alexandra.  Hands who have this little gift from our senior citizens.  We remember those days when Alexandra was to be move to Soweto and other places like Tembisa and he was very much instrumental in the reprieve of Alexandra.  Jeanette, could you please read the letter.

JEANETTE: Dear Bishop Tutu, kindly accept our little gift from the bottom of our hearts.  We remember you quite clearly from the days when we resisted forced removals in Alexandra.  We also remember your words of encouragement, that we should not throw in the towel.  We followed your advice to the letter.  Today we are still in our beloved Alexandra.  May the Almighty God bless you Bishop.  May you
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 L TUALA
have a long and fruitful life.  Your Brother in Christ, Linda Tuala (Mr), Community Leader and Councillor for the Eastern Metropolitan Substructure.

MR TUALA: The pictures that I am having here in front of me. It is myself and Desmond Tutu and Obert Papela, he was still young then and Ben Mshonga.  That is yourself, that is Obert Papela.  Stand up Obert, I mean, how many years were you.  That was in 1979 when we were saving Alexandra.  So we are together with the Reverend Desmond Tutu.  Thank you.  There is an old lady who was supposed to present this to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you very much, even tomorrow.

MR LEWIN: We will now break for tea and return at twenty to twelve please.  Thank you.
ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Balfour — 1997-05-23

RUSSELL ALLY: If I could call our next witness please, Mr Martin J Coetzee.  Sorry, It's Coetzer.  While Mr Coetzer is taking his seat, I'd just like to let you know that we do have statement takers present to-day.  There are two rooms which are attached to the dining hall which are being used as statement taking rooms.  People who have not yet made statements and who would actually like to make statements are invited to go to either of those rooms where we have statement takers.    Mr Coetzer, it's Coetzer is it ?

MR COETZER: That is correct.

RUSSELL ALLY: I saw that you had your wife present with you.  Would you like her to accompany you ?  She is most welcome to accompany you.  She can come and sit here if you want to.

MR COETZER: She would rather not do so since our small son has come with us and he will take over everything here if we allow him on the stage.

RUSSELL ALLY: That my not be such a bad thing.  Welcome to you Mr Coetzer.  You are also going to speak about  a landmine explosion and what happened to you and I think it was probably around about the same time that this happened.  June of 1986.  Mr Tom Manthata is going to assist you but before we start I'd ask you if you would please take the oath.  Do you have any objections to taking the oath ?

MR COETZER: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: If you would raise your right hand.  Do you swear that the testimony which you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

MR COETZER: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.  Tom ?

THOMAS MANTHATA: You are welcome, Mr Coetzer.  Feel at home.

MR COETZER: Thank you very much.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you please tell us what happened to you on that day when the bomb exploded.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Balfour — 1997-05-23

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Coetzer, again thank you very much for coming to the Commission and thank you for being so forthright in your opinions.  It's clear that you did suffer a very horrific physical injury and as a young person, in the prime of your life it must be very hard.  I think that for all of us here on the panel it is quite inspirational in many ways to hear how you have actually coped.  The fact that you display almost no bitterness, that your plea is for genuine remorse, for forgiveness for reconciliation, to move away from the bitterness of the past, from the divisions of the past.  I think that for us in the Commission it's always very reassuring when victims can display that kind of attitude and that willingness to want to contribute towards reconciliation because I'm sure you must know that the Truth Commission often gets quite a rough ride in that we're accused of ... divisions, of being biased.  So it's very heartening for us when victims come forward and speak in this way and actually also applaud the process which the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is engaged in.  From all of us in the panel, thank you very much for coming and for sharing your experience with us.

MR COETZER: Thank you very much.

RUSSELL ALLY: Seeing that it's already half past eleven I think we will bread for tea and we will recommence at five to twelve.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Balfour — 1997-05-23

MR LEWIN: Mr Mnisi, could I just ask, this was one of many protests.  Was it the last protest about the bucket system ?

MR MNISI: This was not the last bucket protest because the people in the township demanded many things.

MR LEWIN: Specifically about the bucket system, does it still exist ?

MR MNISI: Yes, it still exists.

MR LEWIN: So there's never been any success for this particular protest ?

MR MNISI: No there wasn't.  We only experienced a change now under the new Government because they have started installing the sewerage system already.

MR LEWIN: That's what I wanted to ask.  Thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Mnisi, can you remember how the Councillor was killed ?

MR MNISI: When he was killed I was not in the neighbourhood, I was already admitted to the hospital.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were you at any stage in the leadership of the community against the bucket system ?

MR MNISI: I was not at the meeting.  I was one of the community, one of the civilians and I grew up in this township.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You were able to speak to the Councillor.  I guess you were speaking to the Councillor on behalf of the people when you said he should let everything happen, it shall be cleaned later.

MR MNISI: No, I was not representing the community, I was talking to him simply because he was a friend, a personal friend of mine and I realized the danger he was getting himself into by holding his firearm.

THOMAS MANTHATA: As you were speaking to him, where were the marchers ?  Were they standing looking at you negotiating with him ?

MR MNISI: They were there watching and they knew very well that he was my friend.  We grew up together, we were playing in one soccer team and we were also vendors.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You said you are not working now, Mr Mnisi.  Is your wife working ?

MR MNISI: I don't have a wife.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So you are just staying with  Mama and you are supporting your mother.

MR MNISI: That's correct.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No further questions, Mr Mnisi.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mnisi, thank you very much for sharing with us ... (interrupted)

MR MNISI: I will request the Commission to understand one thing.  I am now no longer as fit and as healthy as I used to be before and I won't be able to work anymore as result of that incident.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, as you may be aware the Commission will make recommendations to the Government on Reparations and Rehabilitations so thank you very much for coming and taking us through this long history and explaining your own involvement in it.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Balfour — 1997-05-23

RUSSELL ALLY: You may have seen on the programme of witnesses who are going to ge appearing later to-day, there will be a family member of the Councillor who was killed coming to testify before the Commission, to speak about their understanding of what happened.  If the family members of the Councillor who was killed are willing, how would you feel if the Truth Commission tries to facilitate some meeting so that there can be some discussion ?  If the other family was willing, how would you feel about such a meeting ?

UNKNOWN: What I can say is, even though it's difficult for me to say as to how I would react because I don't know whether the other party is willing to meet us but from my own side I believe that it is a wonderful idea for us to get together and speak. We don't have any aim to kill anyone or to spill any blood, so I believe if we meet and explain to each other what our objectives were at that time of leading the march and they can also tell us their own viewpoint with regard to the march that took place that day.  Maybe we can reach an understanding between the two families.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much for that honest answer.  As I said, we will be hearing from the sister and we will also be hearing from other people who were involved in that bucket protest which was very tragic and claimed a number of lives.  It's also tragic that the circumstances at the time should have turned people against each other.  These were people who lived in one community, who were part of a community, who knew each other as the previous witness said.  He and the Councillor who was killed were actually friends.  They played together in a soccer team and it's particularly tragic that a political system which is imposed on people, where people don't actually have the choice of themselves, democratically voting people onto Councils but have a Councillor imposed upon them, that, that causes this division within the community.  It causes these deep antagonisms, hatred even and in the end leads to this kind of tragic event.  We hope that maybe at the end of these hearings when we've had a chance to hear the testimony of the family of the Councillor, that maybe a better understanding can be reached.  Maybe, as you have said, the families can actually get together and try and understand the different viewpoints they had at the time and see if there can be some resolving of these long standing tensions and these divisions which caused all of this bitterness.  Thank you very much and from our side as the Commission, if we can assist in any way to facilitate this process then we would certainly want to do that but only if it is a request from all the families.  We don't want to impose anything on anybody.  It's for the families to decide if it's something they want to do.  Just for the record, can you just give us your name.

UNKNOWN: William Vuma Ntetwa Magqagqa.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much William and thank you very much to your mother as well.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Balfour — 1997-05-23

RUSSELL ALLY: Wilheminah, thank you very much for coming and to your daughter.  These incidents, these kind of incidents are always very, very difficult and it is really for the families, at the end of the day, who will have to decide how they will deal with this, how they will live with each other.  The role of the Truth Commission is not there to dictate to families.  It's to create the opportunity for people to come and speak, to see what kind of reconciliation there can be, to assist, to facilitate but that is ultimately a decision that you have to take with the other families.  What responsibility we do have as a Commission is to treat all incidents of Gross Human Rights Violations the same.  I think that is the thing which people often don't properly understand that we cannot make distinctions when it comes to Gross Human Rights Violations to the acts.  People who lose their lives, people who are tortured, people who suffered severe ill-treatment, people who would disappear as a result of the political conflict.  That is where the Truth Commission really has to be even-handed and where we have to listen to all sides of the conflict, to all accounts and to treat all of those accounts in the exact same manner.  We all have different political views.  That is inevitable.  We all have different views on what the nature of the struggle was about but there are many of us, many in the Commission who believe that the struggle which people fought to end oppression, to end apartheid was a correct struggle but when it comes to the violations that were committed as a result of that struggle, there as a Commission we have a duty to treat everybody the same and we hope that this opportunity which you have had to come and speak about what happened to your brother, the way he lost his life, notwithstanding how we may feel about the politics of that conflict but the opportunity that you have to come and speak about the gross violations which your brother suffered helps in some way.  We certainly hope that some means may be found for the families of all those who were caught up in this horrific event, that some means can be found for them to speak, to try and find some peace, to try and find some understanding.  Thank you again and when we make recommendations with regard to rehabilitation and  to reparations, that will be for all victims notwithstanding which side of the political conflict they were on.  It will be for all victims.  So, thank you very much to you and your daughter for coming to speak to us.   We will break for lunch and we will come back at half past two.