Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

JUDGE WILSON: He woke up when his mother was being attacked, he gave that evidence, and let us go on now, keep quiet till I've finished.  Mr Menera you then gave evidence to the court and told the judge that you stabbed Patrick. Do you remember doing that?

N JACK MENERA: I made an amnesty application because of murder but in the court I was convicted for attempted murder.  I didn't tell the court the truth because if I had to tell the judge that Patrick Maloyisani committed such an act, we were going to be defeated.

JUDGE WILSON: Don't you forget Mr Menera that you gave this evidence after you had been convicted.  It had nothing to do with your conviction, you had already been convicted when you admitted to the judge that you had stabbed Patrick because you wanted to frighten them, so he wouldn't recognise you.  Do you remember telling the judge that?
After your conviction.

N JACK MENERA: I am rightfully answering your question and I repeat at that time, or at the time before the judge was lies, the truth is what I told you here before the Commission. Let me give you a reason Mr Wilson, the reason why we didn't tell the truth in the court of law.  As the ANC we didn't want to spend our days in jail.  I there was in evidence specifically connected to me, it would be difficult to say no, it was myself and so and so, then we would go to jail in large numbers.  As the ANC you commit an act and only one is arrested.  That one person will have to stand on his own.  Now Patrick was explaining that the three of us stabbed his mother. Allow me to tell you that Patrick Phelane didn't see anything. If he had seen something on that day he would have told the judge that Jack Mutlatsi and Cheetah stabbed my mother.  I had to stand on my own and not involve the others because by not doing so the three of were going to jail because he claimed that I am Jack and I did those and I said well let me accept the accusation so that the other two can go out and carry forward the struggle of the people.  I shielded in short Malusani and Mayani.

JUDGE WILSON: Were they not convicted?

N JACK MENERA: They were convicted.

JUDGE WILSON: How many years did they get?

N JACK MENERA: The other one was sentenced to three years and the other one  18 months. All of us could have been in jail still if we told the truth.  Our strategy worked.

JUDGE WILSON: ....that's how you saved Patrick's life by taking him out of the building, remember that?

N JACK MENERA: Yes Patrick gave evidence as you will remember saying that he was left lying in the building when it was burning and he couldn't move, so his young brother ran out and fetched somebody. You remember that evidence?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: ...the man Alfred Shlalea who gave evidence that he was called and he went in and found Patrick lying in the kitchen and took him out.  You remember that evidence being given?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You're saying that they were lying?

N JACK MENERA: I repeat the evidence that was given in court is not the truth.  We wouldn't stand against the witness, deep down in our hearts we knew the truth and the truth is what I'm telling you now, that Patrick could have died together with his mother in the shop or he could also have been killed by my co-accused and I repeat, I saved him.  I stopped Patrick my co-accused.

JUDGE WILSON: That's not what he said, that's not what the man who fetched him out of the building said, is it.

N JACK MENERA: The Commission shouldn't base it's argument on that evidence, we agreed with some of the issues in court because I was shielding my co-accused.

JUDGE WILSON: I'm not talking about what you agreed with.  Patrick would want to implicate the person who stabbed him.  He wouldn't pick you so you could help your co-accused, would he?

N JACK MENERA: May I repeat, I say Patrick Phelane was stabbed by my co-accused, he was saved by myself and I dragged him outside and the person who said he found him lying on the floor in the shop is not the truth.  The truth is he found him lying outside the shop at the door.  If we left him in the shop nobody could have got into the shop because of the strong fire that we left behind.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you I have no more questions.
NO MERE QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON

JUDGE WILSON: Any re-examination.

ADV DE JAGER: I want to put a letter to you written by the African National Congress.
To Mr Phelane. ...(indistinct) What has been done to you is completely not in keeping with the policies of our organisation and one is ashamed to be informed that these things are said to be done in the name of the African National Congress.
What's your comment on this?

N JACK MENERA: I do not know who wrote the letter.

ADV DE JAGER: Makgothi of the head office in Shell House.

N JACK MENERA: I do not know that Makgothi, I'm not going to base my answer on the letter. What I can tell you is that during our trial the advocate who represented us in court was the advocate sent by the African National Congress and present advocate who is defending me has been provided by the ANC.  Now the letter that you've just referred to, I do not consider.  I do not understand it and I do not approve of it's contents.

ADV DE JAGER: In court, your advocate, being sent by the ANC and you yourself said you never intended to kill Mrs Phelane, you only intended to discipline her, and there was no intention at all to kill her. So I could presume that that was perhaps the ANC's policy.

N JACK MENERA: I was so that in court before the judge because we were charged with murder.

ADV DE JAGER: Why were you supposed to say that in court, who told you to tell it the court.

N JACK MENERA: Let us understand the reason behind this.  At that time we were defending ourselves against the murder case because we were afraid we would be sentenced to death.  That is why we rejected the other evidence like arson, we rejected that in court because if we had agreed to that evidence the victims in the Phelane family, it was going to be clear they'd been killed by us. Now I have told the Commission the truth, the reasons behind our intention.  I am now going to request my advocate to investigate about the letter that you have given.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) of what you have done at that time, at the time when you have done it.

N JACK MENERA: If you follow my evidence during the trial...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: ...evidence during the trial, because ...(intervention)

N JACK MENERA: No Mr Commissioner I beg your pardon, I want to answer on the question you asked, because the same question was asked by the judge, Judge Menega.  You have killed Susan Phelane, now what do you say to the Phelane family.  I refused to ask forgiveness from the judge, I would never go out of my way and ask forgiveness from apartheid, as if we did our act without any knowledge or we didn't have any objective. I told the court, I said, Judge the question that you are asking me, is a nice one but I'm not going to ask for forgiveness from Mr Phelane, and he asked me if they were to release me now would I go back and attack again and I answered that very easily I said I'm not at loggerheads with Mr Phelane, I'm answering the question he asked whether I am proud of what I did.  My answer is no, I'm not proud of what I did.  I wanted to explain that such a question was raised but I refused to ask forgiveness but the reason to appear before the Commission now is that we are asking forgiveness and amnesty and you should understand the reasons why we committed that act.

ADV DE JAGER: I can understand that but I think three big men, to attack a woman and a child, that's cowards.

N JACK MENERA: That is how you perceive it Sir.  We were supposed to do anything to anybody who was against us at that time.

JUDGE WILSON: ...adjourn now till tomorrow morning.

N JACK MENERA: I just have a question, will I be needed tomorrow morning?