Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR NEL: I have none, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(inaudible) Mr Chairperson, yours won't go off and mine keeps on going off.
	At the stage when Colonel Botha arrived there, had you already spent quite some time interrogating Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson yes, we had spent approximately two weeks in Bethlehem but we had also gone to Pretoria where Mr Lalla assisted us with the identification of a stockpile in Pretoria.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you and Mr Botha have any discussion before he came in at the stage when they were assaulted and did you tell him that you were not obtaining any cooperation from them or at least from Mr Gordhan?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, as I've said, initially we were deployed to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla and during that period Warrant Officer Basson received a telephone call from the Durban office requesting that he speak to Mr Gordhan for one day briefly because Mr Duhr and Mr Frans could not achieve any successful development or cooperation from Gordhan.  I spoke to Mr Gordhan that he stated flatly that he would not provide any cooperation with us and that message was sent back as such to our office in Durban so they were well aware of the fact that Mr Gordhan was non-cooperative.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did not speak to Mr Botha personally, I just want to know if you spoke to him about this personally?

MR GREYLING: Not at all, at no stage did I contact Colonel Botha or speak to him before the assault took place.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	Do you bear any knowledge of Mr Lalla being sent for scans at Bloemfontein hospital?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, after the time the reason why I returned to Durban was because I was supposed to get married a week and a half after the incident and that is why I withdrew from Bethlehem.

MR LAX: So do you think you've been married for twelve years now, Mr Greyling?

MR GREYLING: It feels like twenty years, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I was informed by Warrant Officer Basson when I saw him again after the time that Mr Lalla had indeed been sent for treatment and he mentioned something about a brain scan in the Free State but I cannot recall precisely where or in which hospital this took place but that is what I was told.

MR LAX: Just one other short aspect Chairperson.
	You mentioned that Mr Botha asked Mr Gordhan during his interrogation about The Owl and he wouldn't cooperate about that.  Now clearly you were quite upset at this whole process of interrogation according to what Mr Lalla has suggested in his comment and it had a fairly - was this an exceptional circumstance for you, this question of being involved in such torture?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, by nature of Colonel Botha's visit we were informed that it was of the utmost importance to find out precisely who the informer in the security branch was.  Warrant Officer Basson and I understood the seriousness of it and there was certain information which according to Colonel Botha had to be obtained in order to assist with the investigation with regard to Operation Vula so I must say that in my opinion it was of cardinal significance for us to know exactly who or what the identity of the informer was within the security branch.

MR LAX: If you will just bear with me one second, Chair, I just check some facts from another matter?

ADV BOSMAN: While Mr Lax is checking if I may just come in?
	Mr Greyling, I don't think that you really answered Mr Lax's question.  His question was whether or not it was extraordinary for you to participate in such an assault?

MR GREYLING: Personally I felt that at that stage after the investigation it was extremely important if we examine all the facts that we had collected by that stage.  I think that it was of extreme importance to us to know who this person was who was leading information out from the branch.

ADV BOSMAN: I will try once again to illustrate my problem to you.  The question is not whether it was important for you to obtain the information.  If I understand Mr Lax correctly, the question is whether or not it was extraordinary for you to participate in such an assault.  In other words, did you actually regard this as a difficult circumstance under which to assault someone?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I did not regard this as something extreme.  To me, as a policeman, as a police officer at that stage who was involved in the Vula investigation I was part of it and I regarded it as my duty to participate in the matter.  At that stage I felt that it was my duty.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're waiting for Mr Lax, when did you first hear of The Owl?

MR GREYLING: We heard about The Owl for the first time during the assault, on the day of the assault, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Chair, I can't find the specific name but I'm going to ask the question in any event, I'm sorry to delay you.
	Who were you reporting to with regard to your enquiries into Operation Vula?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, Warrant Officer Basson and I reported to Colonel Zen de Beer in Durban.  I did not telephone personally but Warrant Officer Basson was the liaison person between me and our office in Durban.

MR LAX: So you were busy as part of this national investigative team put together by Zen de Beer under his control?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't catch that Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes it was put together by Steyn who appointed Zen de Beer as the head of the national investigation unit, yes.  Sorry, no, no, that was the evidence given by Steyn.

MR LAX: Yes, the evidence given by Steyn was that this team was appointed.

MR VISSER: By him.

MR LAX: I don't remember that directly but in any event it's not that relevant who appointed it, the fact is that there was this team under Zen de Beer and they were investigating Operation Vula.  You see, where I'm a little bit puzzled is you weren't working under Botha at all?

MR GREYLING: Not at all.

MR LAX: Botha's earlier evidence is that he wasn't involved in that investigation, that Zen de Beer was, he had from time to time to assist them a little bit with little bits of information, that was his previous testimony.

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I don't know, we simply reported to Colonel de Beer and what he did with the information I don't know.

MR LAX: You also weren't aware that there was no intention on the part of the State at that time to prosecute anybody for all the work you were doing?

MR GREYLING: I cannot agree with that, Chairperson, during our interrogation of Mr Raymond Lalla, we accompanied him to Pretoria where a stockpile was identified.  Mr Lalla stood by his contention that he knew nothing of the map.  We were told that the map was found in Mr Lalla's room but Mr Lalla agreed to point out the stockpile in Pretoria to us by means of the map.  We had a special investigating officer who we appointed in Pretoria to assist us with the identification of the stockpile.  Videos were taken as well as photographs of the process in order to give as evidence at the end of the day.

MR LAX: You see, you haven't heard that evidence but we have and the fact of the matter is that General Steyn knew and Major or Colonel Botha knew that there were to be no prosecutions arising from all your extensive work.

MR GREYLING: That is the first time that I hear of it.

MR LAX: That was a political decision taken at the times when De Beer was appointed to do this job but be that as it may I wanted to know whether you were aware of that?