Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MR POPANE: For us to have these meetings, we were trying to persuade them to come together to talk and negotiate and the interventions we had from all the offices, particularly the offices from Human Rights, and the ministers were trying to bring us together.

UNKNOWN: He freely participated in all the meetings.

MR POPANE: Yes.  He was participating in the meetings but he was a kind of a person, in the meeting he didn't have any problem for him to understand whatever we were talking about but the problem is when you go out he would say all what we have talked about, he doesn't agree with them.

UNKNOWN: His only problem was in implementing the agreements that you would have reached in those meetings?

MR POPANE: It was his problem to fail to implement the decisions we have reached in the meetings.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry can just ask you something, I don't understand this.  There was a working group of which a de Beer, Mr or Mrs de Beer was a member.  Do you know that?

MR POPANE: In the working group, I don't have full information about that because I was not a member of the working group at that time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That may be so but I was not going to ask you whether you know details about it. I just want to find out whether these working groups, of which Mr de Beer was a
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member, what was the attitude of the deceased towards that working group and it's meetings?

MR POPANE: There was no meeting where the policemen were present when we were discussing in the working group.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well I mean Mr...(intervention).

MR POPANE: I'm talking about Mr de Kock.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well I'm talking about Mr de Beer.  One of your co-applicants has told us that there was a working group of which Mr de Beer was apparently a member and that the deceased did not take kindly to this kind of relationship of your organisation working together with the police and you objected against that.

MR POPANE: The deceased didn't like any kind of relationship with the police.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And we were told that his objection was that you can't work with people who are our killers. Wasn't that his attitude?

MR POPANE: He was advancing that kind of an argument.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He did not attend the meetings of that working group of which de Beer was a member?

MR POPANE: I don't know of any meeting where there was a working group together with the deceased.  What I know, we had meetings where Mr de Beer was not present, it was us comrades and Lawyers for Human Rights and ministers.  In the members of the working group there was no such kind of a meeting.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Don't go too much ahead because I'm trying to clear something. You rush too much ahead and in the end the picture becomes muddled up again.  I've now finished with the meetings of the working group of which Mr de Beer was a member.  You have just told me that you have no
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knowledge as to whether the deceased attended those meetings. I'm leaving those meetings, the meetings of that group.  Now I'm going to ask you about, just a minute ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Does he know of de Beer being a member of a working group?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Presumably.  Now I'm leaving the meetings of the working group of which Mr de Beer was a member.  Now you have told us that your organisation had meetings with the deceased in order to try and bring about some peace, am I right?

MR POPANE: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Many meetings, for example the one which was held under the auspices of Lawyers for Human Rights and so on and so forth, and all these meetings did not produce any results, am I right?

MR POPANE: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: To go back to Mr de Beer, were you aware that he was a member of a working group to which the deceased objected, in which the deceased felt you should not participate because you'd be participating with your killers?

MR POPANE: I was aware because of the briefing from my comrades because as a member of the Executive Committee, my fellow comrades were briefing me in that regard.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We know that there were certain meetings of the working group in which de Beer was a member which you did not attend, but you at the meetings which you attended, and the discussions of peace which you attended, were your organisation's meetings with the deceased. Am I right?

MR POPANE: May you repeat your question?
3.A

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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You did not attend any meetings of the working group in which de Beer was a member, you did not attend that?

MR POPANE: Not at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The only meetings which you attended were the meetings of the organisation ....
(Tape 3A ends) - (Tape 3B commences)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know de Beer?

MR POPANE: I know de Beer by just seeing him because in the marches he was always there.

JUDGE WILSON: In the what?

MR POPANE: In the meetings.

JUDGE WILSON: Meetings?

MR POPANE: In the meetings, in the rallies, he was always there, to monitor the situation as a member of the police.

JUDGE WILSON: He was present at your rallies to monitor on behalf of the police.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to tell me if you're aware of any political differences between your group and the deceased's group?

MR POPANE: Yes I know that there are differences, political differences.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me what they are?

MR POPANE: Our differences were, they were saying that we are in cahoots with the police because there was a meeting which was called by local police, after there was a fear that the police houses were going to be burned.  They were saying we were in cahoots with the police.  The second one is, they wanted to stay as Kuma Youth Congress because those days we spoke of South African Youth Congress, they don't want to take part in those.  Even during the transformation
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period, they didn't agree to be amalgamated in the ANC Youth League and in that way they were able to disrupt our meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a reason why they did not want to be amalgamated with your organisation?

MR POPANE: There was no reason, but they were saying that they want to stay as Kuma Youth Congress.  They want to get their own freedom by burning, they want to gain their liberation by atrocities and in that way it was not the good position.  The circumstances have changed which didn't allow those things to happen.

ADV DE JAGER: So in fact your organisation prevented the houses of the police would be burned?

MR POPANE: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: You worked together with the police?

MR POPANE: There was cooperation between us and the police, particularly the local police.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you sometimes travel with the police in the police cars?

MR POPANE: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Would they have been entitled to think that you were in cahoots with the police?

MR POPANE: As the local people and the local policemen met to discuss about the fear for destruction of their houses, that may be the reason because they see us meeting with the police to prevent the houses not to be burned. They had problems by seeing us together with the police to discuss that issue.  Maybe that is the reason they called us sell-outs.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
WITNESS EXCUSED
3B.

CHAIRPERSON: /...
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CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other witnesses you propose calling?
MR ?: Chairperson this was the end of the list of applicants, however, I have the intention of calling witnesses in this matter.  I have organised that witnesses should attend.  Mary Agnes, whose name is featuring prominently and Norma Zotsha Balani. Chairperson I've got the information that as Members of Parliament, they left Mmabatho and they were on their way to this meeting when I enquired.  I submit however, that I don't see them here and I will presume that they haven't arrived.