Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

UNKNOWN: And of course you knew that it was illegal to commit perjury, common-law perjury and statutory perjury.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: If you'll bear with me.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
	Tell me what time - the incident on the 8th of June, what time did that incident take place, what time of the night or day?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Chairperson, I mentioned a time between nine and ten, but it was late at night, yes.

MS LOCKHAT: You said - in cross-examination by Adv Moerane, you said that you said that you saw Mr Venter three hours later in Piet Retief, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is how I mentioned it, yes.

MS LOCKHAT: So would that be about 1 o'clock the evening, 12 o'clock ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he said in his evidence he came about between ...(break in tape) in the early morning.

MS LOCKHAT: Was that a usual time to meet someone at Piet Retief, that time in the morning?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he was on his way to Island Rock from Pretoria and he stopped there.

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to check something.  Was he - where did you meet him exactly?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: As I have said, it was at the Security Branch.  The whole C-Section travelled at midnight from the farm to Island Rock and they had to come past Piet Retief to arrive there, it is on the route.

MS LOCKHAT: So was he basically coming there to go with you to Island Rock?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: When we saw him, Chairperson, they stopped there as I recall and had placed him there and they departed from there because they all went to Island Rock together.  Col de Kock, myself and Mr Ras only joined them the following day at Island Rock.

MS LOCKHAT: So basically, on page 46 in bundle 1, because there you basically emphatically state that he was there at the incident, it seemed unequivocal by you.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: As I have mentioned previously, Chairperson, I heard the name Roelf Venter and then there was the problem that no weapons were found on the persons and I drew the inference that he was asked to bring the weapons to the scene because they were on their way to Island Rock.  He was definitely not at the scene.  I did not place him at the scene as such, but I am certain that I saw him later that evening at the Security Branch.

MS LOCKHAT: That evening at the Security Branch, did you discuss this incident with him?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I did not speak to him at all.

MS LOCKHAT: And when you got to Island Rock, can you tell us all the members that were present there?

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that it was the whole of C1, do we need to know all the names?

MS LOCKHAT: Brig Schoon, relating to - did you discuss this incident with Brig Schoon as well?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I would never have discussed any operation with a senior, that would have been dealt with by Mr de Kock.

MS LOCKHAT: And did Mr de Kock discuss it with Brig Schoon?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I don't know, he may have.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Just as a follow-up on one of the aspects Ms Lockhat dealt with.  Again page 46
"Roelf Venter delivered the goods which was placed by the victims."
Just explain that to me.  You met him at Piet Retief, the bodies had already been brought to Piet Retief to the mortuary, now the placing of the weapons by the victims, what were you trying to say there?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I think I expressed myself incorrectly in this sentence, as to how I placed Roelf Venter.  We all know that the weapons were planted ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: You know the reason I ask you is because I immediately conjured up scenes of the victims - I beg your pardon, of the weapons being placed with the victims, photographs being taken or something along those lines.  That's not what happened?  It's not as if weapons were placed there so that photographs could be taken of people with these particular weapons?  That's not what happened?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Sorry, just repeat Ma'am, please.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Adv Gcabashe is asking you was, were weapons placed in the hands of the victims and photographs taken of the victims with weapons lying next to them?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember, I wasn't present once, after the scene when they did the photography and all that.  We would normally leave directly after an operation.

ADV GCABASHE: So that last bit of the sentence is just - I should delete it?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Just delete it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: No thank ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Before Mr Cornelius re-examines.  With regard to this very issue, you see what is confusing about all this, Mr Flores, is that your last sentence, after you have described what Adv Gcabashe was talking about, you say only then the incident was reported and the procedure followed.  In other words, what you are suggesting is that you all waited until these arms and explosives could be obtained and placed near the victims and then and only then was the incident reported.  That's what you are saying, not so?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is how I stated it here, Chairperson.  As I have said, after the incident most of our C1 people would depart for the branch.  I heard for the first that Mr Ras said that he took the weapon out to put there.  They would have delayed time until they obtained stuff to place there, as was mentioned, before calling the duty officer as such.

UNKNOWN: Yes, in fact there are three versions about this, there's your version, Col de Kock's version and Mr Ras' version.  The one being that Roelf Venter placed those things after ...(indistinct) and arrived after three hours, Col de Kock's version, that he obtained these from the office, Piet Retief, from W/O Pienaar and Mr Ras says that he had it.  Do you know which version is the truth here?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I cannot answer to that, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: In any event, do you recall whether or not photographs were taken of the victims with the firearms?  That would have been normal procedure.  Do you recall whether that happened?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: As I've mentioned, I was not there, but that would be the procedure that they would follow.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: I don't have any re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: No, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, any questions?

MR MALAN: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Flores, that then concludes your evidence and you may stand down now.  I see that it's just about 11 o'clock and this will therefore be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS