Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm trying to understand from what you are saying as meaning that you were to, before you carry out an operation, you were to do your own investigations, you have to ascertain, you have to rekkie the place, you have to get as much information as possible before you can take human life, is that what you were told specifically?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No was it done in this particular incident, did you rekkie the place, did you get information, did you ascertain this as the actual target?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir, I did.  As I have already said, when we were here in South Africa we had to go back to Chris Hani in Botswana to get permission to do the job and then he would give us the green light.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Masina, it would seem you don't understand me.  Forget about the country, let's concentrate on this operation, let us call it: "The Molope Operation".  Now tell this Committee what you did before he could be killed, to satisfy yourself that this that target, or were you just told by the people that he is not like and you have got to kill him, is that what happened?

JABU OBET MASINA: As I have said before, Molope issued the instruction that the policemen should shoot and kill marchers that were boycotting rent, and eleven people were killed.  That was proof enough to me that he was the people's enemy.

ADV MOTATA: I suppose other than the general dissatisfaction of the general public, do you do any other thing to establish that he indeed gave those instructions for people to be massacred in Winterveld in other words, or you just went with the word of the public and thereafter did your reconnaissance and eliminated him?

JABU OBET MASINA: We did get the confirmation that he was the one that issued the order that eleven were killed.  We did do the reconnaissance and investigation and found that he actually did it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Masina, let's concentrate on this ...[indistinct - zulu word].  We need details here, we need full disclosure here, we don't want generalities.  I'm sure you are aware of that.  You are aware of that?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in order to ascertain that he is the person who gave the order, what did you people do to convince yourself?  Reconnaissance meaning - reconnaissance means observing the place where he stays, his movements and other things.  I am concerned about the instruction whether it is actually him who gave the order for the people to be killed.

JABU OBET MASINA: The newspapers, the media actually mentioned that Molope is the one who gave the instruction that people killed, and we also went to our external mission in Botswana and Chris Hani actually told us that he was the people's enemy, Molope.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Masina, do you expect this Committee to accept for purposes of amnesty, that you read the newspapers and the newspapers satisfied you that he is the person, without you as the commander, well trained cadres, taught how to investigate, taught how to rekkie a place, doing anything to ascertain for yourself, you depended on the newspapers which may have been wrong, is that what you did as a commander?

JABU OBET MASINA: It was the truth that appeared on the papers because even the community said that Molope was the one who issued the instruction, and even our external mission did explain that he was an enemy and we should target him.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here please Mr Mpshe?  	Was Mr Chris Hani not actually relying on you to tell him who the enemies were in a particular community?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, he was not necessarily relying on me but some of the information he would expect from me.  As I have said, we would come, we would identify the target and get back to him, but in this instance he did confirm that he is a legitimate target.

ADV BOSMAN: But do you have any idea as to from whom Mr Hani got his information, apart from you?

JABU OBET MASINA: I don't know where he got that information but he was a prominent figure in the ANC and he knew all the enemies of the ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there any other of your colleagues who had come from Botswana in the area at the time, who may have given that information?  Did you know of any other cadres in the area at the time who may have given this information?

JABU OBET MASINA: Are you referring to Chris Hani?

ADV BOSMAN: ...[inaudible]

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, we were all present at the moment but the main person who was reporting to Chris Hani was myself.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chair.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm sorry about that Mr Chair.  I'm a Leader of Evidence, technician, whatever.  Sorry about it.
	Mr Masina, I don't want you to get a picture from me that I say you are not telling the truth but the picture I want you to get from me on behalf of this Committee is that full disclosure is not being seen to be done by yourself.  And I hope your layers will take care of this.  
	I'm continuing on the aspect of identifying Brigadier Molope as a target.  Let us assume for a moment, even if it is difficult to accept that the people in Botswana would give information, the position is that you do the research and you give that information but let's accept that that is what happened, what did they tell you in exile about Molope, for you to decide to go and kill, because you did absolutely nothing yourself?

JABU OBET MASINA: They told me something that I was aware of, that was appearing in the newspapers, that Brigadier Molope was the people's enemy because he is the one who issued the instruction that the eleven people should be killed in Winterveld.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm stepping off on that one, but I want to put it on record clearly.  So you are saying you gave the order to your operatives to kill Molope on the basis of information given to you, for matter to call it hearsay, on the base of hearsay, would that be correct?

JABU OBET MASINA: I don't whether the newspapers report lies or not but we had this in the newspapers and confirmed this from the community.  Also, my senior officials confirmed this and that made me to believe that he was a real enemy of the people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And that is what you believed as a commander without doing anything yourself, as a commander?  I'm talking to a commander now?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, that's what we did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's go back to the victims in the Winterveld Massacre.  Of what significance were they to your cause?

JABU OBET MASINA: Are you talking about the people who died in Winterveld?  They were important because they were South African citizens and me as an MK cadre, I was taught to protect the South African citizens.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do we have to accept that you had to protect anybody in South Africa, irrespective of his political convictions or alliance?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes.  If it's a policeman who was killing a South African, I would regard him as enemy of the people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just to make an example, if a policeman gets word that somebody's wife has been raped in your vicinity and the policeman chases that person and in the process of trying to arrest the person who has killed, will you kill that policeman?  You see I'm worried by your generalities here.

JABU OBET MASINA: When I say a policeman that kills South African citizens, I was talking about political situations.

MR LENGANE: Excuse me.  Mr Chairman, I think I need to just interpose a little bit.  Sorry to you Mr Mpshe.  When replying to the previous question, the applicant did say that the political affiliation would not be significant, in direct answer to the question when it was raised by Mr Mpshe.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If the Chair could just bear with me a little bit.
	Turn to your application, page 20, if you have a copy, page 20 thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: It's the second page of your affidavit, that's at paragraphs 4.1.3 to 4.7.