Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: From what I think I'm trying to say even though the shack was too small, the one who saw us first and being the one who gave them the sign first, who said: "Here are these dogs, shoot", they ran away from us giving themselves a chance to get out of the shack.  I don't know whether I'm answering you well.
	We tried to shout at them, saying: "Calm down, we would like to talk to you" and they said: "There is nothing we can talk to you about because you want to own our location, today is today.
	We tried to scream.  Even though it was dark at dawn and we tried to chase them, we were running after them and we tried to get them to stop so we can talk to them sense and they refused, they kept saying: "Today is today".  We could not get hold of them.
	What happened instead, as the grass was long, towards the last line of block C in the shacks - today it's just an open place, they were going, approaching towards those structures of the farm and we sat there, we sat down.  
	After - it was quite, after some time we saw the third one coming out of the direction that they ran to.  I would like to think that it was a carton of cigarettes or boxes of cigarettes and tinned stuff and this tinned stuff were inside the hardboard and they were in six packs each.  I don't know how many cigarettes or boxes of cigarettes were in there.
	There was a bottle which had a piece of fabric in it and soil with petrol or mixed with petrol in it, in a nip bottle.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you watching all this from where you were standing?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We saw them coming with those things from the direction which we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  From where you were sitting you could see that they had a bottle and that inside that bottle was petrol and some sand?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Understand this Mr Chairman, I'm saying the third one came out from the direction which they ran to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand that.  What I'm asking you is, you were - these people ran into the tall grass that you have described, right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereafter three people emerged from where the others had disappeared into, carrying cartons of cigarettes and then there was a bottle.  Now all I want to know is, from where you were standing or sitting could you see that the bottle had petrol inside and that there was sand?  Could you see that from where you were standing?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Let me do this Mr Chairman.  We did not know whether there was soil inside that bottle, all that I'm describing to you and telling to you are things that we discovered when we got to Bulelwa's corpse showing us the things that they discovered from their possessions that they had when we met there.  They had those things in their hands.  I don't know whether I'm answering you or ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] these people?  As they came towards you, you caught them and then you discovered these items?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That's what I'm trying to say because in the first place, when we were sitting down they could not see us because the grass was tall.  They got out of the grass since they were lying down there and we were also lying on the other side of the grass, they came to us.  	When they came to us they were shocked to discover that we were also there.  Now they had those things that I'd already described to you, with the bottle.

CHAIRPERSON: So you only managed to see what they had in their possession once you had captured them, right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] as they were approaching because they were far from you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We could see them but we could not see as to what they had in their hands, we only discovered that when they were right in front of us.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were there?  It was you  and Oscar?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Those that I still remember, it's myself and Mr Motlokwa.  I cannot remember the others as there were many of us, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot recall who they are?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: ...[No English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] were with.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Mr Chairman, as I have pointed out, there were those who were looking after Bulelwa's corpse ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm asking you is, you were chasing the persons who ran into the tall grass.  Now, I want to know who was with you?   You've mentioned Mr Motlokwa, can you remember who else was present in your group that chased the persons who ran into the tall grass?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember.  I don't doubt that among the people with whom I was arrested I cannot remember who exactly remained behind with Bulelwa's corpse and who came along with me.  In other words, the one that I remember very well is comrade Oscar.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the position then that when these people disappeared into the tall grass you remained outside waiting for them to emerge at some point?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already explained Chairman, block C, the place at which we stood was a vast area of shacks where we could build up to.  From that point onwards there was an old house that had been occupied by a farmer some years ago and therefore there was this tall grass.

CHAIRPERSON: We know, we've heard you say that.  All I'm trying to find out from you is, when they disappeared, did you wait for them outside the grass?

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, if you can stop reading and listen to the question you would be able to answer it because you are concentrating on reading rather than listening to the question.  Please do that, do us a favour.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you chased these persons and they disappeared into the tall grass.  You did not go into that area did you, you waited outside?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Not all of us got into the grass with them Sir.  We waited for about five minutes after the gunshots ceased.  We were just sitting down, we could not even see them.  They too could not see us.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] emerging from the grass?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, thank you.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, since you could not remember the others but remembering comrade Motlokwa, do you have an estimation of the people who were with you, the comrades who were with you?  Approximately how many of you were there giving chase to these people who were running away from you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken I think we were about 8 because even though we had divided ourselves to say others should wait at the corpse of Bulelwa and other neighbours of ...[inaudible] were in block E, what I am saying ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] there were three of them, do you know what their names are?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It was Tibang, he was one of them, Tibang, Mokwena.  Another one I cannot be sure because Buthelezi - I cannot differentiate the two of them.  I don't know which one is the son and which one is the father but one of them is indeed the one and I don't know the other one.

MR MALAN: ...[inaudible] was either the father or the son and you couldn't see whether it was the father or the son, or what are you saying?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I'm saying there was the one who was called Thokozani Buthelezi, I cannot remember which one was which.  I don't know which one was the son, I think it was the son that we found called Buthelezi but I cannot be sure which one was the son, which one was which.  I don't know whether you get me well.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know the third one?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And these persons had some cigarettes, some cartons of cigarettes and the tinned stuff, the bottle with sand and petrol.  Is that how they make the petrol bomb?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I would like to say so Sir.