Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: Exactly.  Now as far as we have already heard the whole story as to how this man was killed, I don't think it necessary to go into that again, but tell me Mr Coetzee, seeing that you've made the mistake already that you have told Nick van Rensburg you were going to explain to him about the killing of Peter Mbusi and the knock-out drops and so on, I can understand that you have made a mistake about Peter Mbusi, but when you and Nick discussed this killing, did you mention the possibility of knock-out drops to him?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes I did Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: How did you know they were available?

DIRK COETZEE: Well it was available by General Lothar Neethling after the Fox Street early in the, I can't remember what year.

MR BOOYENS: How did you know Lothar Neethling would give it to you?

DIRK COETZEE: It was available, the forensic laboratory and I knew if I asked through my superior officer, Brigadier Schoon, it would not be refused to me Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee you could not be certain at the stage when you and Nick van Rensburg discussed this that even that Schoon would okay this operation, which on what you describe to me looks like a private enterprise and certainly not anything to do with police work.

DIRK COETZEE: It wasn't a private enterprise at all Mr Chairman and I knew Brigadier Schoon would agree to it under the circumstances.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee about the knockout drugs, you testified that it didn't work at all on previous occasions.

DIRK COETZEE: No Mr Chairman I, on the first occasion with Peter Mbuzi I received poison powder and knock-out drops and then I give a description on how after getting those knock-out drops in the person falls over, stares wild into nothing, you can wave your hand in front of his eyes, he won't wink, he scratches in the ground.  I don't know whether I've testified it but that is what happens and I think I did testify about it.

UNKNOWN: Then maybe I've got it wrong because my recollection was that you went back and told him it's not working and he should give you stronger drops.

DIRK COETZEE: No Mr Chairman that was as far as the poison powder was concerned which he said if you feed it to human being will give him a heart attack on a very short notice or very quick, within minutes.

MR BOOYENS: If the Commission would just bear with me, I just want to find something in one of the many records made by Mr Coetzee.  I'll look for that later.  Mr Coetzee was it at any stage discussed, who was going to do the shooting?

DIRK COETZEE: No it was not Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: The man who pulled the trigger just got up, is that what you're saying as well?

DIRK COETZEE: He spontaneously volunteered when someone mentioned that we've got to get on with the job.

MR BOOYENS: Who was that someone who mentioned that?

CHAIRPERSON: I can't remember Mr Chairman whether it was Mr van Rensburg or Mr Archie Flemington because they were the two senior officers present.

MR BOOYENS: Or maybe even you?

DIRK COETZEE: No I was under their orders, I was under their command, they were the senior officers present.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee the purpose was there to murder this man and you were the one that supplied the knock-out drops, the expert whose services were roped in, wouldn't you have suggested that your knock-out drops seem to have been taking an effect now and that that was the right time?

DIRK COETZEE: It was General Lothar Neethling's knockout drops and I just brought it down Mr Chairman, there were two senior officers present who had to make the decisions Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I want to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens I think that Mr van Rensburg said that he may have given the order.

MR BOOYENS: The operative word, may, I may have given the order, no Mr Chairman the only reason why I'm asking this is because I got the impression at some stage that it's hard to believe who gave the order, here we've got the witness who was there, he also can't remember who gave the order so I'm just trying to find out whether he couldn't have given the order, van Rensburg said I could have given the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee what improved your memory from the time that you made this written statement until the time you gave evidence in your amnesty hearing?   I'm talking specifically about the fact what you told Nick van Rensburg.

DIRK COETZEE: Which written statement Mr Chairman are you referring to?

MR BOOYENS: The one that ends at page 106 Mr Coetzee your October '96 statement where you recount the story of how you told van Rensburg of the killing of Peter Mbusi.

DIRK COETZEE: And how did I get to the right facts now Mr Chairman?

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

DIRK COETZEE: By preparing for this Commission hearing and having and being able to refresh my memory from documents again Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: What documents did you have about the killing of Peter Mbusi?

DIRK COETZEE: I've got the Lothar Neethling trial, I've got the Harms Commission and everything else.

MR BOOYENS: But that was evidence that was given, not so.  I'm talking about documents, what documents, what documents did you have?

JUDGE PILLAY: Well surely Mr Booyens the record could be regarded as a document?

MR BOOYENS: No Mr Chairman perhaps the Commission could - I'm talking about official documents, records, that type of thing.

DIRK COETZEE: Nothing more that was handed in at this Commission Mr Chairman, telexes and faxes and..

MR BOOYENS: Were there telexes and faxes in connection with the Kondile matter?

DIRK COETZEE: Well I don't know, this that was handed in by the applicants Mr Chairman whatever it was called, I don't know exactly what it was called.

MR BOOYENS: But how did that help you fix the date to the end of October?

DIRK COETZEE: Well with all the trial records as I have said already Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: All the trial records basically of evidence given by you?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct and other persons as far as dates is concerned Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Well the trial records were the Lothar Neethling trial and the Harms Commission.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, and I think in the Lothar Neethling trial it came out very clearly when Vusi was released and when General Lothar Neethling came back and the Ogies incident of a caravan, shooting taking place, and the Lindley incident, the shootings that took place ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Okay, thank you Mr Coetzee.  When was the Neethling trial, remind me?

DIRK COETZEE: It was in October 1990 Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And when did that trial finish?

DIRK COETZEE: It ran for about two weeks if my memory serves me right Mr Chairman, I can't remember exactly.

MR BOOYENS: Wasn't it '93, counsel who represented Mr Neethling is sitting right behind you, he's indicated to me it was '93.

DIRK COETZEE: Yes my evidence that I gave before a Commission in London I left Lusaka specifically on my wife's birthday on the 2nd of October 1990 and returned about three weeks thereafterwards, back to Zambia after I have given evidence and Miss Oshrie, she was still acting for Mr Neethling.

MR BOOYENS: Are we both talking about the Lothar Neethling trial?

DIRK COETZEE: The Lothar Neethling trial.

MR BOOYENS: The defamation trial?

DIRK COETZEE: Where my evidence was led in London in front of a Commissioner the first two to three weeks in October 1990 Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I will try and clear that up.

UNKNOWN: Mr Booyens will it make a big difference whether it was 1990 or 1993?

MR BOOYENS: Except insofar as excuses for bad memories are going to come up again Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

DIRK COETZEE: I know that - excuse me Mr Chairman, I know that the trial started somewhere in November 1990 shortly after the outcome of the McNally Commission and the Harms Commission was made public Mr Chairman.