Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

H J P BOTHA: Ndaba told me that on that same day between half-past-one, half-past-two that afternoon, he had a meeting, he had arranged to meet one Mbuso Shabalala near the Greyville racecourse.  However, he was hesitant as to whether he should attend this meeting.

MR VISSER: Why?

H J P BOTHA: Viewed in the light of what had happened that morning when he'd been arrested by an askari.  After I had discussed the matter with, it was decided that it would actually be better for him to go to the meeting and I gave him the assurance that we would monitor the meeting in the even of any danger for him.  We agreed on a warning signal and the signal was that Ndaba was to touch his head.  Myself, du Preez, Wasserman and van der Westhuizen drove with Ndaba to fairly close to the rendezvous which was in a side street adjacent or diagonally opposite the Greyville racecourse.

MR VISSER: How did you know to go there?

H J P BOTHA: Ndaba had told me that, told me where that meeting place was to be.  About 100 metres before this rendezvous, we let Ndaba get out of the car and van der Westhuizen and myself followed him on foot and du Preez and van der Westhuizen, du Preez and Wasserman rather remained in the vehicle.  We saw that Ndaba climbed into a blue Toyota and that Mbuso Shabalala was sitting behind the steering wheel of the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Did you know Mr Shabalala at that stage?

H J P BOTHA: He was known to me.

MR VISSER: Did you know anything relating to his activities at that stage?

H J P BOTHA: He was known to me as a political activist in kwaMashu.

MR VISSER: Did you know that he was involved in Vula?

H J P BOTHA: Yes I did as a result of the information that Ndaba gave me.

MR VISSER: Alright.  He was behind the wheel and Ndaba got into the car.  This is the blue Toyota.  What happened then?

H J P BOTHA: I told du Preez and Wasserman on the radio what the whereabout was of the blue vehicle, the blue Toyota and they drove around the block and stopped in the same road some distance behind the Corolla.  Ndaba and Shabalala sat in the car for about 15 minutes when Ndaba gave the warning signal by touching his head.  On the radio I told du Preez and Wasserman of this and we approached the vehicle from opposite directions.  The window on the right-hand side was open and I inserted my handgun through the window and pressed it in Shabalala's stomach and I told him to sit still.

MR VISSER: Why did you do that?  Why did you press your weapon into his stomach.

H J P BOTHA: It would then not be visible to anybody in the vicinity and at the same time it would make it very clear to him that I was very serious with my command to sit still.  There'd be no doubt in his mind as to the purpose and the intent of my command.

MR VISSER: Was it your intention to arrest him lawfully or what was the situation?

H J P BOTHA: At that stage it was the intention to arrest him lawfully.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell him what you were doing or why you were doing it?

H J P BOTHA: Not at that moment.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you press that gun in a man's stomach, you say nothing to him?

H J P BOTHA: By telling him to sit still.

CHAIRPERSON: What else did you do?

H J P BOTHA: du Preez and Wasserman who came from behind were already at the vehicle and along with van der Westhuizen, they climbed into the vehicle whilst Ndaba got out of it.  Ndaba and I then left the scene in the mini bus belonging to the Security Branch.

MR VISSER: Before you continue.  In other words the other members then took over, took charge of the person.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.  Shabalala.

MR VISSER: Right you then say that you left.  Did you give any instructions to the other members as to what was to happen next?

H J P BOTHA: I told them to drive back to the safe-house in Verulam .

MR VISSER: With Mr Shabalala?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us about Ndaba.  You said Ndaba got out of the vehicle.  What did he do?

H J P BOTHA: He walked to where our vehicle was parked and he got in and he drove back to the safe-house with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.

CHAIRPERSON: You and he got together, drove off together in that vehicle?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.  It was a Volkswagen kombi and he was sitting right flat down on the ground in the front between the two seats.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, I've just lost you on this point.  Did you tell Ndaba to walk along with you, or did he do so of his own accord?  What happened there?

H J P BOTHA: No, I told him, told him to come with me.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Did you pretend that he was being arrested, Ndaba that is?

H J P BOTHA: No. It all happened very quickly, from the moment that I pressed the weapon in Shabalala's stomach and told him to sit still and the vehicle's doors were opened by du Preez, Wasserman and van der Westhuizen, Ndaba got out.  That all happened very quickly.

MR VISSER: So  would Mr Shabalala would then have thought that he was the only one being arrested, abducted?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he could have made such an inference.

MR VISSER: Continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did the others go to?

H J P BOTHA: We all went to the safe-house in Verulam and on the way to the safe-house, Ndaba said that Shabalala didn't really suspect anything but that he expressed his concern about the fact that Ndaba was half-an-hour late for the appointment.  When I asked Charles why he had given the warning signal, he said that his courage had failed him and at the same time he expressed his fear that he, as a result of the arrest that morning, could be suspected by the ANC of collaborating with the SAP.

CHAIRPERSON: It sounds a bit strange doesn't it?  There's a secret venue between himself and Shabalala and he gives you a signal and he gives you reasons why he signalled, that he was afraid because he had been arrested this morning, that he would be suspected by the ANC.  How could that come about in those circumstances at that time of the day?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, given his state of mind, I couldn't question it.  He'd given a signal and we had given him the assurance that we would monitor the meeting between him and Shabalala and if the meeting was not safe for him, he was to give us the warning signal.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR VISSER: What you're actually saying in answer to the Chairperson's question, is that you don't know why his courage failed him,. but that's simply what he told you?

H J P BOTHA: Yes and that was his state of mind.  I don't know why he felt that way.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

H J P BOTHA: Now the forced arrest of Shabalala placed us in a very difficult  situation.  We had never planned to arrest him.  It would in any event have been senseless to have arrested him since the only evidence which we had against him would necessarily have come from Ndaba and we would not have revealed Ndaba's role as an informer in any circumstances by using him as a witness against Shabalala.

MR VISSER: You've already said that you gave an instruction to the other members to take Shabalala to the safe-house in Verulam.  Please continue from there.

H J P BOTHA: I realised that Shabalala's arrest had the potential to compromise our intelligence operation.  If he was released and reported to the ANC that Ndaba had been arrested with him, it would obviously place the spot light on Ndaba and he would then have to explain why he was released and the chances were also fairly good that Shabalala would have told the ANC that Ndaba had led the police to him.

CHAIRPERSON: How was that?  How could that happen?

H J P BOTHA: If it was a secret meeting then the only way in which we could arrive at that meeting was to follow one of two people, either Shabalala or Ndaba.  In this case.

MR LAX: Or both of them, I mean it's pretty obvious.