Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

MR MCHUNU: In the same vein Chair, during those times ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I can see it is going to be argued.  He has explained that, he interpreted that as confirming their belief, but what I am saying is that that is not the only interpretation.

MR MCHUNU: Well, during those times it may also be recalled that there were so many of such acts committed without there being real proof, that a person is indeed an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I said, life was cheap then.

MR MCHUNU: That is correct.  If I may proceed to the applicant was actually challenged on the question of whether or not he ever did become a member of either the UDF or the ANC.
	I submit Chair, that the applicant in this matter, has quite consistently explained his position, that he never at any stage, was a member of the UDF and if you take also into cognisance the fact that the applicant was at that time only 13 years old, if you count from the time when he was born in 1972, he was only 13 years old, and it was a very tender age for him to understand the whole political dynamics at that time, and too, and most importantly, the organisations at that time, operated underground.
	Such was the UDF too, it operated underground.  The activities and the dissemination of information was not as good as it is today.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect Mr Mchunu, the UDF operated perfectly above ground.  All the Youth Congresses held meetings publicly, people became members.  Yes, at certain times their members were detained and their activities were frowned upon by the powers that were of the day, but the UDF was a perfectly legitimate, above board, organisation.
	Many, many of the Youth Congresses of every little small village and township around South Africa, were all publicly operating above board.  It wasn't an underground movement by any manner of means.
	That is not the same for the ANC of course, that was a banned organisation, as was other liberation movements.

MR MCHUNU: Yes, that is indeed correct, but it must also be understood in the context of that time, that any such meeting held, could at any time be spoilt by the coming or by the flocking of Police at that time, to arrest people who attended the gathering, to do all sorts of things.
	Under those circumstances, meeting workshops and other platforms where youths such as the applicant in his case, would have been able to grasp, go get information about ...

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, he has explained to us the circumstances in which he says he identified with the UDF, etc.  I don't think that he ever said that he was a keen meeting goer and followed it closely, he said basically the circumstances dictated that he fell on that side of - rather than the other side.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you Chairperson, very much for that.  The point I now want to go into is on disclosure.  I believe Chair, that the applicant in fact, I submit Chair, that the applicant has indeed made a full disclosure on the issues pertaining or related to this particular incident, because there is only one incident which is being talked about at the moment.
	About the names of people, he has also explained that he cannot remember everybody who was present, but at least the names of those who were present, whom he can still remember, he has given to this Commission.
	Unless the Chair wants me to address it on some other point.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mchunu.  Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, the bulk of my argument has been covered by the cross-examination on the applicant, sorry, so I won't go back to obvious things that are on record.
	I would just go by way of a point system, just enumerate and direct the Committee to have a look at these things, that is all Mr Chairman.  One is that the deceased was killed when the applicant was not sure that he was an informer.
	Point two, the killing of the deceased took place without any authority whatsoever, either of the UDF or of the ANC at that time.  That is the evidence on record.
	Point three, the applicant has told this forum that what they sought to achieve, was to be safe in the area.
	Point four, I am asking this Committee to consider the manner in which the applicant struggled in answering questions that were put to him.  In short the demeanour of the applicant which impacts on the credibility of the applicant.
	May I resist Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, to be tempted to respond to Section 23(1)(b) that was alluded to by my learned friend incorrectly, as well as 23(1)(a).  That is all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any reply Mr Mchunu?

MR MCHUNU: None Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We will reserve our decision in this matter and it will hopefully be handed down in the very near future.
	Mr Mpshe, that brings us to the end of the roll?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct Mr Chairman.  Before we adjourn Mr Chairman, may I just put on record the victims' ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you can do that please.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman as I have indicated at the beginning, we've got quite a number of people who are relatives to the deceased, but I will only mention those who are closer, not actually closer, but who are relevant in terms of the process.
	That is the mother, who is Tokozile Msani, her affidavit is on page 15 of the papers.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Msani, not Cele?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Msani.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the statement was Cele?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Mr Chairman, on page 15.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, it was Sergeant Cele who attested to the statement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As well as the father Mr Chairman, Hezron Msani.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the first name?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Hezron and finally Mr Chairman, one of the important persons as well, the son to the deceased, who is present in the forum, Lindani Msani.
	Mr Chairman, the address will be the same, it is given as P.O. Box 23635, Isipingo, 4110.  Perhaps I need to put a telephone number as well Mr Chairman, in case they want to be ...

CHAIRPERSON: It will certainly do no harm.

MR LAX: Perhaps that information could go to the R&R people.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can do that yes, rather then publicise the family's telephone number.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I stand corrected, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  As I said that brings us to the end of the roll here.  Before we adjourn, I would just like to thank everybody who made these hearings possible, the Interpreters for the hard work that they had done all week.  	It is a very difficult task interpreting simultaneously as the people are talking, to the sound technicians who provided the sound system here, to the media, to the security people and the witness protection people, and also to the caterers who have looked after us so well during tea times and lunch times and indeed to everybody who made these hearings possible for us, thank you very much.
	Thank you particularly Mr Mpshe, for all that you have done as well.  We will now adjourn, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS