Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry if I may interpose.  The word robust, what do you understand by the use of that word?  Why did you choose that word?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think it should have been rather more proud and forthright, but robust was selected.

MR LAX: Because robust means to be physical, to be more than just body language, which is what you used in evidence in chief.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Then perhaps it's the wrong word, I didn't understand robust to be that.

MR LAX: And aggressive has a similar denomination.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's words selected in consultation.

MR LAX: It's just that the impression imparted by the use of those two words together, gives one the impression that he might even have tried to physically attack you back.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, he didn't.

MR LAX: At no stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  We'll go now to the observation at the Knoll.  Can you just clarify?  Where was Gen Nyanda arrested?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was arrested going up the road towards Overport, I don't recall the name of the road.

UNKNOWN: And before the arrest you were observing the resident, called the Knoll.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: When he left the Knoll, you followed him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Why had you been asked to observe that place?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Botha had informed us that this was a safe-house for the ANC.

UNKNOWN: An ANC safe-house?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Had he told you who to observe there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't recall which names he mentioned, but we were to record all particulars of all personalities exiting and leaving.

UNKNOWN: Did you know Gen Nyanda?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I knew Kibusa.

UNKNOWN: I knew the name Kibusa and I knew Kibusa was Gen Nyanda.

UNKNOWN: Okay..

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And I knew the face, Ma'am.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  So I didn't quite get what you said he did that made you, alerted you to the fact that you were onto him.  What did he exactly do?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think his counter surveillance procedure, because he's a highly trained man, I think his counter surveillance procedures had picked us up.  His driving mannerisms appeared to both du Preez and I that he was starting to take slightly evasive action and we both came to the conclusion that perhaps he had cottoned on to us.

UNKNOWN: Can you just explain the driving mannerism, what was he doing?  Swerving the car, going faster, slower?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Nothing as dramatic as swerving the car, however, I seem to recall perhaps and indicator, showing going left and then not going left and then an indicator
going right, to see if we were responding behind. That's routine anti-surveillance procedures and it appeared as though those were being practised.

UNKNOWN: And then you went on to say that a particular weapon was discovered in the car whereas you had searched the car and not found the weapon.  How do you explain that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, my search was very, very cursory.  We didn't strip that car at that stage for secret compartments, it was merely a physical search of the vehicle as it was standing there per se.

CHAIRPERSON: I tend to recollect, but I'm not sure, if it was in this case or something else, that the weapons were found in a secret compartment in the fuel tank?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I was just looking, I think it was in Gen Steyn's Exhibit H, where he recounts the judgment of the Magistrate in Mr Nyanda's application for bail, but I'm not entirely certain.  I'm just looking through that now, Mr Chairman and if I find it, I will alert you.

MR LAX: It's on page 5 of that annexure.

MR VISSER: Thank you Commissioner Lax.  I'm just looking.  I see there's something on page 6 as well about explaining that tanks of a Mercedes and a Cressida, well he was driving a Cressida, was used to smuggle arms.  I'm just looking again, Mr Chairman.  I'm not sure where at page 5 you're referring to.

MR LAX: No, in fact you're correct there.  It's the second-last sentence of that first paragraph on page 6, talks about
"the Accused explained that the tanks were used to smuggle arms and ammunition from Botswana into the Republic.  This was done on numerous occasions."

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear to indicate, if one looks at the sentence just before that the modified petrol tank were found at the house.  It may be somewhere else.

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly this does not narrow it down to a secret compartment in a car, Mr Chairman.  My attorney has just pointed out to me something else here and that is at page 96 on The Other Side of the Story where the photographs which I referred to earlier, page 198, I dealt with and it says at page 97
"The photographs 198 illustrate the Toyota Cressida, ND 268230, found in possession of Siphiwe Nyanda, showing the false compartment and the M3A1 45 calibre sub-machine gun with the optical sight and silencer."
So according to these commentary Mr Chairman, apparently it's the middle photograph and I'm going to hand it to you again so that you look at it, it would appear to be the seat turned upside down with some sort of compartment.  My attorney can just show that to you, Mr Chairman, it gives him something to do as well.

UNKNOWN: So Mr Chair, we can proceed on the assumption that the weapons were found under the seat in a secret compartment.  Thank you, Mr Chair.  Can I continue?  You say that you were told that Ndaba was anxious and indicated his intention to turn himself over the ANC.  Would you normally be privy to such information?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: As Mr Botha wished, I could have received such information yes.

UNKNOWN: Earlier on you said he had not permitted you is some discussions, well which discussions were those?  In discussions with Ndaba.  You said earlier on that he had not permitted you in the room when he was discussing with Ndaba yet he walks out of the room and gives you the exact information Ndaba gave him, does that make sense?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, it makes Ma'am.  Then I cannot put questions to Mr Ndaba.

UNKNOWN: Pardon?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That means I would not be able to question Mr Ndaba on information.

UNKNOWN: Okay, if you're in the room  you would, it would have been assumed that you can question Ndaba, but if you're outside, you couldn't?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you're outside, you are relying only on what you are told by Botha.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: When was the decision taken to eliminate Ndaba?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not sure when that was taken Mr Chairman, but I was, my participation came about earlier on the day in question.

MR LAX: When were you informed of that decision and, well let's just first, when were you informed of the decision?  On that day?  What time of day, can you remember?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chair, as I answered before I cannot give the time but it was earlier on the same day.

MR LAX: Was it in the morning, was it in the afternoon, was it early evening?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Somehow I recall sort of eventide.

CHAIRPERSON: You said earlier didn't you, afternoon, early evening?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Late afternoon, early evening.

MR LAX: And as a consequence of that you had certain preparations to perform?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: And that entailed getting hessian sacking, it entailed getting the Watcrete poles, according to your evidence it entailed cutting bits of bailing wire to certain lengths and so on, is that right?