Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR KRUSE: I am in the police and I know the culture of the police.  You seem to say that you don't know about things, that is not how the culture of the police works.
You were part of a very sensitive Unit in this country.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you think he is holding back?  Why don't you put it to him?

MR KRUSE: I want to put to him, the way, the nature of the Intelligence Unit and I am referring to the way it operates, that to keep the trust of all members, you will have a small circle and the six people you operated with in that small circle, I think would have shared all the information in terms of that, for you to be, there is no way you could have been used to a level of torture, and not being given any other information.
I just find this very difficult.  And you know how it works in the police, what you do in Cape Town, they know in Pretoria.  When you torture people today, tomorrow it is known in Pretoria, that is how the circle works within the Security network.  But you were a Warrant Officer at that stage, which was fairly senior, part of a very small confinement and you don't know anything that happened in that Unit?	I find it very strange you know.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That I didn't know that was happening in my Unit, or that I didn't know what was happening in the whole of the country?

MR KRUSE: These askaris operated under Liebenberg, that is what you are saying.  Liebenberg was your Commander.
You see new people coming to your office, you don't ask, he doesn't inform you what the role of those people are?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Very, very rarely, any of those askaris came to our Unit at Culemborg.

MR KRUSE: They were there when I was there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: How many, it may have been David.  The whole exercise of the askaris were not to be identified.  We were under the impression that the Intelligence section of the ANC at that time, definitely had our Security Officers under observation.  Therefore I would not deny that the askaris may have come to Culemborg at times.  People like David who was, I think, I think he was a regular policeman, would have been the group leader of the askaris.
	Sergeant Bellingham, would be the Commander in the field and the liaison would be Lieutenant Liebenberg.

MR KRUSE: Okay, let's move on the point.  You said that your Unit disbanded in 1990?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: When in 1990?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: After the unbanning of the ANC, PAC and South African Communist Party.

MR KRUSE: In 1991, I think it was late 1991, I am not sure of the time, we deliberately as the ANC Intelligence, leaked misinformation about illegal arms going with us to our National Conference, via the telephones.
	Do you remember the event when you pulled off our buses on the highway towards Cape Town, towards Durban when we left Cape Town?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, I am not aware of this.

MR KRUSE: May I refresh yourself?  Goosen, Nel, Liebenberg, most of the members you spoke about as a Unit.  You were disbanded, but in 1991 based on misinformation, your whole Unit pitched up to pull our buses off?
	You see, I don't understand what type of truth you are telling us.  It is very selective, your truth, you see.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I definitely do not remember this incident.  After the disbandment of the Anti-terrorist Unit, members stayed at Culemborg, and I think they became then known as the Illegal Firearm Unit.
	I at that stage, and I don't mean this flippantly, because it amazes me how the Security Branch minds worked at that time, I was transferred to the Security Branch Head Office, 5th floor, Thomas Boydell Building, where I became the Desk Officer for the far right desk.
	Therefore I say I was not on that exercise, of pulling buses off.

MR KRUSE: I clearly remember you putting myself to the ground with a gun against my head.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I honestly cannot remember this incident.  As I say, I may be out with my date, but on the disbandment of the Anti-terrorist Unit, I was transferred to Security Headquarters, Cape Town.
	After that, I did not participate in any operations in the field.

MR KRUSE: So, when was I lying?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't be that adamant, that you are lying Sir, with respect, I cannot remember this incident.  If you can tell me more or less where these buses were pulled off, because I honestly cannot remember it?

MR KRUSE: I think it was in the Hex River Valley Pass, we were going through the pass, we have many buses.  There are many, many other members, but the point I just wanted to prove, I don't think that you are telling the truth.	This is the point I am trying to make.  You said you were disbanded, and I was aware, and we were aware as our Intelligence, that you were not disbanded as a Unit, that you were still operating as a Unit.  We were aware and one of the things we regularly fed misinformation over the phones to see how you operated and that is why that is something you would definitely remember I think, in your mind.  Where a group of buses are stopped by you as a team and we were all put to the ground.	We were taken out of the buses, particularly myself, Bongani Jonas, Wally Roode, David Fortuin, Jamie Vearey, all members, people who went through your hands at some stage, we were deliberately taken off the buses and put to the ground?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Kruse, I am willing to put my head on a block, I was not on that exercise.

MR KRUSE: Okay, we leave it there.  The next question I want to ask you, you said yesterday in your testimony that you lied in court.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: The first question, under whose orders did you lie?  You said you were given instructions to lie, so under whose orders did you lie?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I could say it was under the orders of Lieutenant Liebenberg.

MR KRUSE: Sorry, not could, I mean I think this is very clear, you get an order, you get an order from someone, it is a police, it is paramilitary instruction, you get an order from someone to lie.  I want the name of the person, and I would like the Commission to hear the name of the person.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I said I could easily say Lieutenant Liebenberg, but it was ...

MR KRUSE: Sorry, did you get an order or did you not get an order, put it that way?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was a known fact, under certain circumstances you had to lie, and under those circumstances when it was my testimony that could put a bad light on the Security Branch, I lied.  It was an accepted method.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But the question, Mr Benzien, is did you lie on orders of Captain Liebenberg or somebody from your office, or was it something that you did on your own?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is time that came over a long period Ma'am.  And as I say, I can say Liebenberg, I can say anybody else, but it was a known fact, so in other words, it wasn't necessary for somebody to say, you are going to go give evidence today, lie about it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question is quite simple.  The question is did you lie on orders from anyone or you did not get any orders from any one to lie on that occasion?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand your evidence to mean that whenever you thought that the Special Branch would be thrown into a bag light, you would lie if you thought you could prevent that from happening?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Without being told by anybody to do so?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: There were times, however, where you think you might have been told by somebody else, specifically, to lie?  You say that you might have been told by Liebenberg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I might have been told, but this was not a one off situation, we had been giving evidence in numerous trials and as soon as, especially when it came to things like torture and things like that, it was a (indistinct), you lied about it, you did not concede.