Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV BOOYENS: You have attached the coded message as per 
Annexure 19.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The planing of a bomb underneath a Security 
vehicle, it could be argued that you knew that there would be such a 
bomb and that you could have prevented it?
	Would there be a hundred percent chance to stop the bomb 
planter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: You then realised that security measures should 
be beefed up before that date?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: It will be suggested to you that the information 
had already all come out, in other words the horse had already been 
bolted, why now close the stable door and for that reason it wasn't 
necessary to take the drastic actions which ultimately was taken.
	What is your comment on that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't think that they were in possession 
of all the information.  I believe that they would have to be 
debriefed for a considerable period and I can give you an example.
	When the people apply for asylum in Lesotho, photographs are 
taken of these people so there would have to be a photograph 
identification and that would take time.  They would have to write 
an autobiography of themselves, and that would have to be checked 
first.  So according to me, I don't think they already had all the 
information at their disposal.

ADV BOOYENS: One of the methods which you used on this side 
and we have already referred to it, was to have a photo 
identification for people whom you had arrested or turned to find 
out which people they actually knew?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Would it be possible for this to happen on the 
other side, on the ANC side if these people had gone over to the 
ANC, for them to have an photo identification to identify further 
sources which they had perhaps seen as Security head offices?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: According to paragraph 28 you discussed the 
matter with Brigadier Gilbert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: He knew that your intelligence network was 
becoming less effective?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And you were already aware of the fact that 
there was a large number or a large amount of sensitive information 
in the ANC's intelligence network's hands?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 29, you mention that the ANC 
could not make use of this information to such a great extent.   It is 
not clear, could you perhaps explain what you mean here?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairman, the ANC could not use some of 
this information.  Apparently they had not received all the 
information and they wanted to ensure they could not act 
immediately, to also protect their own sources.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words, if the ANC acted too sharply, 
then the inference would be that they had sources inside?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is right.

ADV BOOYENS: You refer to the situation of the possible transfer 
that could exert pressure on Security people because it cold become 
known that there were moles?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In paragraph 31, you refer to the fact that you 
and Mr Gilbert discussed the matter and it was clear that drastic 
measures were needed since the intelligence unit could not be 
utilised to maximum efficiency in the struggle at that time?  The 
efficiency was decreasing?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: After all these facts had been placed before him, 
Brigadier Gilbert told you that you should eliminate the people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You mentioned that the second sentence should 
read he according proposed that this operation be managed in such a 
way that the blame for the elimination could be placed on the ANC's 
shoulders?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Because as it reads at the moment, it sounds as 
if it was your suggestion, but it was actually his suggestion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The decision to eliminate the people ... 
(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, which sentence are you referring to?

ADV BOOYENS: Sorry Mr Chairman, paragraph 32 should read he 
accordingly suggested to me, not I suggested to him.   The roles are 
just reversed.

ADV DE JAGER: Could he perhaps explain to us how this fault 
happened, how this occurred that this sentence appears in the 
documents, it has a completely different interpretation and if you 
want to retract it, you must realise it has been done under oath.

ADV BOOYENS: Yes, I am aware of that.  I am not sure how the 
mistake happened, but it had to have happened during the drafting of 
these documents.  I noticed the mistake when I went through the 
documents  during consultation with my client and during 
consultation he told me that the suggestion that the operation should 
take place in this place, had come from Gilbert and not from his 
side.
	Unfortunately I cannot answer as to how the mistake crept in. 
 In a document as weighty as this, I am sure mistakes occur.

CHAIRPERSON: The mistake does not lie in the misprint, but in 
the version itself.

ADV BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  On page 334, paragraph 33 
you mention that the fact that the decision was made to eliminate the 
people, wasn't taken lightly.  Were you convinced that in the 
circumstances there were no other way than to eliminate these 
double agents or moles?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You were given an order by Brigadier Gilbert 
that it should be done?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I received a direct order from Brigadier 
Gilbert.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 334, paragraph 34, you refer to the fact 
that as a result of this, Brigadier Gilbert told you that you should 
commence provisional planning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You already realised at that stage that you 
couldn't use local personnel to actually carry out the elimination and 
that you would have to get help from outside?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Approximately two days after the order had been 
given, Brigadier Gilbert met you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And he arranged for you to fly to Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did he also give the order that the authorization 
should be obtained for the plane ticket?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Could you arrange for the authorization yourself 
or did it have to be done through the Commanding Officer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The latter, it had to be done by the 
Commanding Officer himself and he had to get authorization from 
head office to give that authorization.

ADV BOOYENS: In so far as it is relevant, the requisition order is 
available on which it appears that General Van der Merwe gave 
authorization for the plane ticket, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: We've only got one copy available Mr Chairman, 
perhaps I could just hand that to the Commission of the requisition. 
 It is part of a court record.  Your secretary could perhaps just make 
copies for us and I will hand it in.
	Brigadier Gilbert told you to go to Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And the Brigadier Van Rensburg, the first 
witness that you should come into contact with him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: That would happen the next day?  Brigadier 
Gilbert also told you that there were allegations that two of these 
people Mgoduka and Sehati were involved in certain fraud 
allegations, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: These allegations of fraud, did it have anything 
to do with the decision to eliminate them?