Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I feel so much regret because I did not have any problem with Asvat, I never had a grudge with him.  And it is with the sincerest regret that I say this.  I feel very troubled and I would like to approach the Asvat family and tell them how I feel about my deed.

MR MILLER: Well, Dr Asvat's brother is sitting right next to me on my right, the gentleman in the blue and white shirt, do you have anything to say to him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I ask for forgiveness.  I think my  conscience has been fighting with me for the past few years, that is why I have come before this Commission to come and put matters straight and tell the Commission that I did this and I take full accountability for it.
 Especially because I never had a grudge.  I think I was tempted by this sum of money.  I saw it as a very lucrative deal at the time.  But at this juncture I can say I am asking for forgiveness.

MR MILLER: Just one last question, you were not here yesterday so I must just tell you that Mr Mbatha gave evidence and basically what he said in so far as it differed from you is that you some how trapped him into committing the killing.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He can put it that way if he wants to, but I think he was tempted by the money as well.  Not specifically me, but maybe that is how he sees it or how he saw it then.

MR MILLER: What he suggested was that it was planned that you would commit the killing, but because his thumb print was on the card in the Doctor's surgery, he landed up doing it and it wasn't really what was planned.  It was planned that you would do it?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He is correct in that respect.  I was also very doubtful, I did not want to shoot because I was scared.  I did not want to do it, but I did want to be involved in the deal.

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

MR MILLER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Miller.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Dr Boraine.  Mr Dlamini, one day after you were arrested you made a statement to the police, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I did give a statement to the police.

MR VALLY: And this statement you made voluntarily, without having been forced to make the statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, that is not true, I was assaulted before I submitted the statement.

MR VALLY: Let me come back to that then.  I just want to ask you about certain items in the statement, before we go on with the rest of what you said.
 I don't believe we have an Afrikaans interpreter here today.  I will just translate it loosely, Chairperson.  One of the items you say and this is your statement the day after you were arrested, which is on the 18th of February 1989.   You mentioned someone called Johannes Ndlovo, is there such a person?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I do not know Johannes Ndlovo.

MR VALLY: You say Johannes told me the following story.  And then  you quote, look, I am bought by Winnie Mandela and I must kill or shoot Dr Asvat dead.  He gave me a 9 mm firearm short, or rather he showed me a 9 mm short firearm.  He then took out a magazine and I counted six live rounds.
 Do you recall telling the police this in your first statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I have never said that to the police, I never spoke about a Johannes because I do not know any Johannes and I do not know a Johannes now.
 I had been severely assaulted and shocked electrically by Major Moodley, Hesslinga and Bleecker.  I never spoke about Johannes but that name came through one of the police who was present during our torture.

MR VALLY: Did you say anything about Mrs Mandela, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I spoke about Mrs Mandela as I am speaking now or as I have just spoken.

MR VALLY: You then went on in your first statement and you said that this particular Johannes Ndlovo used the false name Mandla Ekwanyana, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The person who gave that name was Mbatha.  I couldn't have referred to Mbatha as Johannes, I knew Mbatha submitted a wrong name.

MR VALLY: Okay.  You again mentioned Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in this statement ... (tape ends) ... and you say this is a sum of R20 000-00 do you recall that in your statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: (Indistinct)

MR VALLY: I will come back to that.

MR MILLER: Deputy Chairperson, I can't really object, but I just wish to point out to all concerned, that Mr Dlamini is saying that he was tortured before making the statement and it appears now that he is not sticking by it, I would ask everyone to take into account that the fact of the torture and assault of which details he has given.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that has been noted.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You then appear in court and in explanation of your plea on the 22nd of February 1989, and I will quickly read to you your questions and answers.  Questions posed to you and your answers.
 You were asked if you want to make a statement, you pleaded not guilty, you were asked if you wanted to make a statement regarding your plea and your response is I can't say anything because I know nothing about the allegations.  I am prepared to answer questions posed by the court.
 You were asked were you present on that day in that place, you said no, I don't know the address.
 Were you in possession of a gun and ammunition and you said no.  Do you know the deceased person, no, I don't even know accused 1, referring to Mr Mbatha.  I have nothing further to say.  Do you recall saying all this?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I do remember saying that.  And I said that because of the circumstances.  The police had tortured and assaulted me, they said I should point out the gun as well as this ammunition because they were alleging that I had an extra gun which I didn't have.

MR VALLY: So you completely denied everything, even knowing accused 1, this is in court?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: In court, the police had assaulted me earlier on.  They even dipped me into a swimming pool and they electrocuted me.
 They electrocuted my fingers and my whole body and I told them that I did not have much to say because they did not want to hear the truth of what happened, but they wanted me to admit to the statement that was made by Mbatha.

MR VALLY: You have given a completely different statement in court, a completely different plea explanation in court from the one you gave to the police which you allege was made under torture.
 I am asking you why did you make that statement in court on the 22nd of February 1989, four days after you made the first statement to the police, a completely different statement.  You said you didn't know anything, you didn't know the place, you didn't even know accused 1?  I am asking you this question why did you make this statement in court?
 It is completely different from your first statement to the police?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I had no alternative but to do that, because the statement that I made was not produced in court by the police.  They produced their own statement.

MR VALLY: Please listen to me carefully.   You were asked very specific questions.  What was recorded was what you answered.  Question, were you present on that date in that place.  Your answer, no I do not know that address.
 Question, were you on the effected date in possession of a firearm and ammunition, your answer no.
 Question, do you know the effected person, no, and then you volunteer, I don't even know accused 1, that is Mr Mbatha.  I have got nothing further to say. 
 Very simply, why did you answer this way?  What was your justification for doing so?