Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

SHADRACK GOVENDER: Well, when I returned from Lusaka, after a day or so, we were - I was accommodated at a hotel in Harare.  The Ashton Park area was declared a security zone, we were not to touch it, nothing was going to happen there.  We did try to go and open the ANC office, which was part of our duty to keep that office running at all time, despite everything else.  The place was of course mobbed by journalists and people who wanted stories.   We had to battle to keep other people who had different (indistinct). There were people who were over keen, very keen at looking at ANC files or at data that was, ANC data that was in the office.  The people from the police who wanted to get there and search for what - I don't know, they couldn't explain it. However, after about a day or two and after the ANC had sent someone to act as a chief rep after Joe Gqabi had been assassinated, a person by the name of Peter Makabane or Pilla-Polla, the detective MacCallum wanted to interview myself and Geraldine.  We were taken to Harare police station where we were interrogated and put in separate rooms and we were subjected to abusive language and although they did not handle us physically, but there was over-concern
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about why did I go and inform the Minister of Security and not go to the police station.  I made my views and opinion clear that time and which were that we had worked closely and very direct working and a close lives with the Minister of Security and that I didn't feel confident or safe talking to any policeman in Zimbabwe at that time.
 There was some people, although I lived in Zimbabwe underground, as I am a trained person, it came to pass to the Zimbabweans that I was actually a trained cadre, and because also the ANC knew me. There was a little bit of confusion at that time as to who and where Geraldine came from.  I think that it could have happened that some people didn't really know her, because I was the only person that remained that knew Geraldine.  Maybe she may well not have had someone to defend her at that time.  I don't know, that she could answer herself.  But I was not detained by the police, she was detained.  She was arrested and I think she was held for a period of about two weeks. I am not sure about the exact period. I must say that the investigating officer was - he treated everything rudely and they were not happy that they were not allowed or they were not allowed earlier on to search the ANC offices and take files away from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you inform Geraldine Fraser that you were coming here to make a statement around Mr Gqabi's death?

SHADRACK GOVENDER: She is aware.  She may not be aware of my testifying today, this day, but she is aware that I did inform her that I was coming here.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Gqabi, I will talk to you afterwards.  Anybody who would like to ask more questions, please?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mrs Gqabi, could you tell me how you support
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yourself these days?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: I am not working for the National Defence Force in Pretoria.  That's how I support myself and the children and grand-children and that's how I manage to pay the bond.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you also tell me whether you received any special pension, being the widow of a freedom fighter?  Were you ever eligible for any of these special pensions that were announced by the Government?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: I have signed some forms, but up to now I have not received any of the pension money, which we are supposed to get, but I did sign forms.

YASMINE SOOKA: Have you also received any sort of counselling for the trauma that you and your family have undergone over the last number of years?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: No, I have never received any counselling.

YASMINE SOOKA: Yes, in fact a number of witnesses during the last few weeks have in fact stated that there is a need for trauma centres to be set up right around the country, to deal with the stress that people are still undergoing. Would you support such an idea?

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: Yes, I would.

YASMINE SOOKA: I don't want to ask any more questions, but one of the things that I do want to make a comment on, is that most of the families of people who have gone into exile or people who have had their sons or their husbands or their daughters killed, have noted that there seems to be an appalling lack of concern for the people who remained behind at home, and obviously from the side of the State, nobody ever bothered to inform people that their sons or daughters were killed or their relatives, and a lot of people have discovered that through the newspapers.  I also want to make SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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a comment that it seems to have happened a lot with people who have gone to join the ilberation movement as well, that often and two mothers came here yesterday, and advised that the only time they knew their sons had died, was when they read in a magazine the names of their sons. I think one of the things that needs to be improved on all sides, is the fact that there must be communication with people, when people die.  I think this is one of the things which is coming out of this Commission.  
 Could I just ask Mr Govender, did the ANC conduct its own investigation into the murder of Mr Gqabi?

SHADRACK GOVENDER: Well, I did write a report on - which I submitted to the ANC on my recount of the situation, and there was - I am sure there was an investigation, but it was not a public one or an open one. I would like to cast a bit of light on that point, although the ANC had its own security department that did all investigations and all that.  We are talking about a department that was resource-strapped, that people were faced with too many things at the same time, and this matter did receive the highest attention of the ANC.  What I cannot say is what the final resolution on whether the case was ever closed. I personally was never informed, I am not aware of the finding or the closing of this case.

YASMINE SOOKA: Was any report ever made to Mrs Gqabi herself?

SHADRACK GOVENDER: Well ...

NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: No, I never received any report.

YASMINE SOOKA: I see. Thank you very, very much.