Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I'll accept that, Mr Chairman.
	Did you know anything about his trip on - in an ordinary vehicle from Port Elizabeth to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I have heard of that, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Before it happened?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: After it happened?

MR SNYMAN: I believe I heard of it on the day during which he had been transported.

GEORGE BIZOS: That would have been before there was any agreement to tell lies, wouldn't it?  Before Saturday?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been arranged by Col Goosen;  the transport arrangements to Pretoria.  I had no hand in it.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you hear for the first time that he was on a hunger strike?  He was supposed to be on a hunger strike.  When did you hear that for the first time?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot remember, your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear being told - were you ever told that he was on a hunger strike?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever told that he was on a hunger
strike?

MR SNYMAN: Not as far as I can recall, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see him as he was being taken away from Port Elizabeth to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know what his condition was at that time?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to read to you from page 58 of your evidence which reproduces your statements.
"I was present on 11/9/77 when Capt Siebert and other certain members went with Steve Biko from Walmer Police Station to Pretoria"
Was that true or false?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall.  If it is stated like that in my statement, it might be the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, why did you say that you didn't know when he was taken - you didn't see him being taken to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, with respect, this is 20 years ago.  I cannot recall every detail and I do really honestly not know whether I had been present.

GEORGE BIZOS: These were not ordinary everyday events, were they?

MR SNYMAN: I would agree with you.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was his condition when he was put into that vehicle?

MR SNYMAN: I did not see him.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say that you were there, in an affidavit made shortly after the events. I just want to put the date on record, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: If I may assist my learned friend, M'Lord, I think all those affidavits were taken on the 17th of September, the Saturday.

GEORGE BIZOS: The one that I am referring to, was made on the 20th of October as appears on page 54 of the record, Mr Chairman.
	You said in a statement on the 20th of October, according to page 54 of the record, that you were at the police station when he left.

MR SNYMAN: That can't be correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why would you have said a thing like that in your statement in October if it was not correct?

MR SNYMAN: I have no explanation for that, but I am convinced that I had not been present.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did you know why he was being taken to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you hear my question?

MR SNYMAN: I heard that he had been moved to Pretoria, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was: did you know then why he was being taken from a police cell in Port Elizabeth to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: No, Col Goosen would have controlled those matters.

GEORGE BIZOS: The people that took him there were in your unit and your juniors?  Correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour, but they were then under the command of Col Goosen since he had arranged that trip to Pretoria.  I was not involved.

GEORGE BIZOS: If your affidavit on the 20th of October is correct, you must have been - you were there.  Was there any discussion as to what was to be reported to the prison in Pretoria when they got there?

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, with respect, that's ... (intervention).

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge of that, your Honour.

UNKNOWN: With respect, that's not a proper question.  The witness has said that he's not even certain whether he was there;  that he cannot comment whether he was there when they - and now my learned friend is putting the question as if he was there and if he should have knowledge.
That's not a proper question.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll accept the criticism and I will alter the form of the question, Mr Chairman.
	Whether you were there or not;  was there any talk as to what would be reported to Pretoria as soon as your underlings got there with the very seriously ill Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to put to you that you and your underlings were going to mislead - before the Saturday when you told us that Mr Goosen told you to mislead people.	Before they got to Pretoria it was agreed that it would be reported to Pretoria that this person was not really ill, but that he was shamming?  Do you know anything about that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: That they mustn't be taken in by his hyper-ventilation?  Do you know anything about that?

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And they mustn't be taken in on his pretence of being disorientated?

MR SNYMAN: No, I bear no knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And they must not be taken in by any feigning of illness, because he was merely trying to mislead the security police in order to avoid interrogation?  Do you know anything about that?

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you advance any reason if that is what happened according to the prison officials who made affidavits why that misinformation should have been kept away from you by your juniors?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I was no longer involved.  I was not involved with that particular incident.  It was handled by Col Goosen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did your junior not owe you the duty of keeping you informed of what happened to this - to this important detainee that you were supposed to interrogate.

MR SNYMAN: No, subsequent to Col Goosen taking over the entire matter, it was not necessary for them to bring any report to me.  It was in the hands of my commanding officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or that he - that he had been on a hunger strike?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, I do not know of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If I were to put to you that the apparent reason for removing him from here, was because the senior officer, Johan Coetzee and others at the head office were very concerned that Mr Biko in his miserable condition may be recognised by some decent person and make it known that he had been smashed up?  What would you say to it?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you want me to explain the question?

MR SNYMAN: Pleas do explain it.

GEORGE BIZOS: I have suggested to you that the reason why he was taken to Pretoria, was because it was realised that someone would recognise him here in his smashed up condition and make his condition known to the public, to the media.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I could not comment on that.  As I have said, the entire matter was now in the hands of Col Goosen.  What he had known and what he had discussed with people at head office, I would not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you think of any reason why, while he was so obviously sick, he was so urgently transported into another jail all the way in Pretoria? Can you think of any reason?

MR SNYMAN: No, I could not comment on that.  I had no part in that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you when you heard about Mr Biko's death?

MR SNYMAN: Probably at the office.  I can no longer recall on what day I heard this news.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who told you?

MR SNYMAN: I do not know.  Probably it was common knowledge.  It might even have been in the newspapers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was the event so insignificant to you that you don't remember how you heard about it?