Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR VAN VUUREN: The generator was on the property;  itwas
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used to pump water for cattle.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, before having moved to this property, did you know that there would be such a generator atthe  property?

MR VAN VUUREN: I knew that they used that generator forpumping water.

MR DU PLESSIS: Please continue on page 99.  Did you usethis  property on many occasions?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, I grew up in that area.  I knew thearea very well.

MR DU PLESSIS: For what purpose did you use this propertypreviously?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, this was between the highway and theold Pienaarsrivier Road.  It was simply an open piece of mine property where the cattle were grazing.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, you've given testimony thatduring the interrogation it appeared that his contact in Mamelodiwas Andrew Makope and after you gained this  information fromhim what did you do next?

MR VAN VUUREN: During the interrogation it became quiteclear that his contact in Mamelodi was Andrew Makope.  We drewMakope's file and determined that he was an activist and a courierof the ANC.  As far as I can remember, Freddie Legotke(?) wasan ANC member as well as an exile, a family member of Makope whowas living in Lusaka, Zambia at that time.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, did you leave Maake on theproperty when you drew the file or did you take him with?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, we brought him with.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where exactly did you draw this file?

MR VAN VUUREN: We drew it at the Security Branch.
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MR DU PLESSIS: The information which you gained from thefile with regard to Makope, could you expand on this for the Committeewith regard to acts in which Makope was involved?

MR VAN VUUREN: Makope's file had to do with arms whichentered the country and that he kept terrorists in hiding or assistedterrorists with hiding in Mamelodi, that he hid their arms, thathe transported them around.  He was a logistics person for them.

MR DU PLESSIS: Once you had this information available,what did you do next?

MR VAN VUUREN: We decided to pick up Makope.  We immediatelywent to Mamelodi and started to watch Makope. It was myself, CaptainHechter, Sergeant Mamasela, Constable Hendrik Mukaba and ConstableDanny Tshihlahle, known as Slang, if I remember correctly.  Approximately10 o'clock that evening he entered his car which was indicatedto us by Maake.  We pulled him off the road and as far as I canremember he was driving a blue Colt Galant although I am not exactlysure about this.  We put  Makope  in our minibus and one of usfollowed with the Colt Galant.  I believe this was Sergeant Mamasela. We left Maake and Makope at the  property about 5km north ofthe Pienaarsrivier Dam and went home ourselves.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could you stop there for a moment.  Youtook Maake and Makope to the same property.

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you then immediately interrogate Makopeor did you just leave him there?

MR VAN VUUREN: Until the next day.   We simply left him there until the next day.
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MR DU PLESSIS: Could you indicate to the Committee whatthe circumstances of Maake and Makope were, were  they tied  down?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, we tied their hands and legs.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could they lie down?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, they could lie down.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did they have water?

MR VAN VUUREN: We left them both water and food.  If Iremember correctly, we bought this  food at the Pienaarsriviershop.  There is a little  restaurant there at the corner and webought some food there.

MR DU PLESSIS: What would they have done with this foodand water if their mouths were closed and their hands were tieddown?

MR VAN VUUREN: We left Sergeant Mukaba and Sergeant Tshilahlewith them to help them with the water and food.

MR DU PLESSIS: Were they inside or outside?

MR VAN VUUREN: They were outside.

MR DU PLESSIS: (Question inaudible)

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.  I must mention that therewas a small kind of zozo-hut which they were able to stay in butwhen Captain Hechter and myself left the property they were inthe open veld.  Captain Hechter gave instructions that Slang andHendrik had to keep the prisoners inside the hut at a later stageafter they had eaten.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where did you go after this?

MR VAN VUUREN: We went home.  The next morning we wentback  to the property.  At dawn Hechter, Mamasela and myself returnedto the property.  We interrogated Makope in the same way we interrogatedMaake, that means we also gave him electrical shocks with thegenerator approximately three  or
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four times.  His interrogation also took roughly an hour.  Makopequickly made all the facts available.  He told us that he wasMaake's linking person and that their head was  a certain Braach(?)who lived in Witbank.  He said that Braach was the person whogave the instructions.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could you stop there for a moment.   Whatexactly did Makope admit to you with regard to acts and actionsin which he was personally involved?

MR VAN VUUREN: I cannot exactly remember any more.  Ican  remember what kind of acts Mr Sefola was involved in butnot Mr Makope.

MR DU PLESSIS: You may continue.

MR VAN VUUREN: Makope said that Braach was the person who gave the instructions and Makope said that Legotka had adifficult time in Lusaka and Zambia, that he had to make clothesto stay alive and that his monthly ... (BEGINNING OF TAPE 1B)... and that he was responsible for the transport of arms andthat he received his instructions from Harold Sefola.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember at all whether he admittedto be involved in acts of terror?

MR VAN VUUREN: I cannot remember whether he was physicallypersonally involved with acts of terror, but that he did indicatetargets and serve as a courier for arms.  That I can remember.

MR DU PLESSIS: After you received this information, whatdid you do next?

MR VAN VUUREN: We left these two that very day and returnedto the Security Branch offices.  Because of the fact that Makopeinformed us that Sefola was the person who gave instructions withregard to which targets had to be attacked
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and also the fact that he provided housing and assistance to activistsand terrorists who returned to the Security Branch.  I went toSecurity Branch Head Office.  I must explain here that I had togo to the head office because Witbank was outside of our own area. If it was true that Sefola was the big terrorist and activist, I had to receive his file from the head office because we wouldonly have had files in our branch office of those in our area.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, when you left  them there,was this at the property where you had interrogated them?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.   We left them at thatvery property.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you leave anyone with them?

MR VAN VUUREN: We left Constables Makaba and Tshilahlewith  them again.

MR DU PLESSIS: What information did you obtain from thefile at Security Branch Head Office with regard to Sefola?

MR VAN VUUREN: I left the Security Branch Head Officewhere I drew Sefola's file and it became clear from the file thatSefola was a very big supporter of the ANC and activist and organiserand a trained terrorist.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember any additional information?

MR VAN VUUREN: This is very long ago.  In the file theyspoke of his involvement with limpet mine explosions and thathe might have given instruction for the death of a policeman inMamelodi.

MR DU PLESSIS: What did you do next?