Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-25

MR MTHEMBU: The content of this application form was it explained to you or you read it yourself and failed to understand what the form required of a person completing it?

DANIEL MAGODA: No it was not explained to me because we'd filled these forms in a hall at the prison and there were many of us sitting there and when we had finished they were taken and people said that it was the official closing date, the cut-off date so many of them were collected and there was no chance for us to re-read what we had written.

MR MTHEMBU: But on your application form it was signed on the 25th of November 1996 and the cut-off date was the 18th of December and there was still time that your application could reach the Committee timeously.

DANIEL MAGODA: Sir I would then say that the mistake was on the part of the person that had brought the forms to us to fill in because there were many of us in prison who were filling in applications.  That is what the person said to us.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir what indeed is the political objective you sought to achieve?

DANIEL MAGODA: I wanted to achieve the freedom of all people regardless of race or colour, all Africans.  I wanted
freedom so that we can build up our country and go forward.

MR MTHEMBU: If the next of kin of Mr Fourie as well as those of Mrs May were present today, what would you say to them?

DANIEL MAGODA: What I would say to them would be that we should forget about the past and reconcile and live in peace and build Africa together.

MR MTHEMBU: Do you have anything further that you wish to add?

DANIEL MAGODA: Yes.  I would like to rectify something.  You see the death of someone is not that commonplace, but that is what disappointed me the most in my offence.  I would describe it as such.  But what happened, happened.  It cannot be undone.

MR MTHEMBU: But how do you feel today about what happened happened?

DANIEL MAGODA: I am remorseful about it.

MR MTHEMBU: Is that your evidence Sir?

DANIEL MAGODA: Yes.  I'd say that's all for now.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU

DANIEL MAGODA: Earlier on Mr Mthembu asked you about a statement that you wrote in your application, 9.A4, you said,
"We did all of this because we were oppressed and we hated White people and also because they messed all Black people around".
He asked you did you mean that and do you still mean it.  You said you meant that yet then but you don't mean it now.  What I want to know from you is exactly how did you feel then and how do you feel now?  Do you still hate White 
people, that's what I am asking you?

DANIEL MAGODA: No.  I do not hate them anymore.  I did not hate them then either, but what I hated was their treatment.

MS THABETHE: One more question.  You deny the fact that you killed Mr Fourie because he was treating Blacks badly and a plan had to be made to kill him, why then did you kill Mr Fourie, can you tell that to the Committee?

DANIEL MAGODA: Very briefly I would say that when we killed him it was not because he ill-treated Black people, it was the system that all Whites used to oppress Africans and treat them badly.  As I mentioned I worked with them for a long time and they were doing bad things to me as well.  The first bad thing that they did was that I was unable to be educated and know right from wrong according to a curriculum and syllabus and it is because of what they have done that I could not complete my education and I believe that if I was able to complete my education I would not have been in the position I find myself in today.

MS THABETHE: Before you went to attack Mr Fourie were you aware that Mr Fourie ill-treated Mr Leeuw and Mr May before?

DANIEL MAGODA: No.  I heard about that afterwards.

MS THABETHE: I beg your pardon I meant Mr Nkgwedi not Mr May.

DANIEL MAGODA: No Mkgwedi did not tell me about his treatment.  I only heard about that afterwards and it is the second time in this hearing that I am hearing about it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS THABETHE

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  I take it you have no re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry.  Just to come back to something, I remember something. Were statements taken from you by the police during the investigation, after your arrest?

DANIEL MAGODA: Yes they did take statements.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And were these statements used at court?

DANIEL MAGODA: I do not know whether they were used because the statement - I do not know if the police statement was used at court or not, because it was the first time I had been arrested and I did not know how the law operated.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I don't know whether you will be able to remember that.  Was there, during your trial, was there any argument about whether certain statements were made freely or were made as a result of assault, or alleged assault?

DANIEL MAGODA: No there were those - although I've forgotten the name of the chief of police who had threatened us by saying that he knows that we APLA people were people that were out to get farmers and that he would take us away and kill us and they would not know whether we escaped or not, and we would hear that somebody would be killed somewhere and not know how that person had been killed and we thought things like that would happen to us as well if we did not cooperate, that they would kill us and say that we were trying to escape.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Mthembu the reason why I put that question to the witness is that I see a note here in front of me that apparently the venue, this gentleman was then the investigating officer in this case, according to this note he is going to fax certain material or important statements, statements whose admissibility was contested in a trial, and a trial was heard and all that.  Will you please try to ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: (Aside)....These are things about the missing money and what have you.  This is the enquiry we made when we wanted information about what goods were found, what money, what was missing, R8 000 worth of goods, that's what this is about.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Will you just try to - in case such statements are returned, try to clear up whether there were such contestations or not.