Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MR WEBSTER: You told the Committee here, the Commission here when you were being led, that you believed you were being fired at because I presume it must have been the fire from, the flames omitted by the guns which you thought you saw coming from the vehicle that you were trying to stop, is it not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR WEBSTER: You saw that?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR WEBSTER: The vehicle was right next to you?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR WEBSTER: It was so, in fact the visibility was such that you could even still see what was happening to the kombi on the other side of the vehicle?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, I could see the kombi.

MR WEBSTER: You want us to believe that there was signs of firing from a vehicle right next to you, you want us to believe that

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, yes.

MR WEBSTER: Okay, Mr Botha and I take it that you also want the Committee to believe that despite the fact that
you were being fired at, because that was your belief, you at no stage fired at the people who were firing at you.  Is that so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairman, let me put it this way.  It was a very rapid situation, vehicles were moving past one another, they were driving next to each other.  We tried to stop the vehicle, he tried to knock us off the road, he collided with the kombi in front of us, a police vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: That happened afterwards when your men stopped the vehicle.  We're talking of the vehicle at the firing stage.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I just want to correct it.

MR LAX: Just let the man finish.  He's halfway through his answer and you're already starting to question him again.

MR WEBSTER: My apologies.

MR LAX: You've done it a few times.  Just let him finish please.

MR WEBSTER: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You were telling us that this was a very rapid situation where the cars were moving in relation to each other.  Do carry on.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson and after the vehicle had tried to knock my vehicle off the road twice, I fell back and then I started shooting at the left rear wheel, in other words I was at the left-hand side behind the suspected vehicle, when I started shooting.

MR WEBSTER: You were driving?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, and that is what made it so difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR WEBSTER: Let's get back to the question.  I'll give you a chance to answer it this time.  You want the Committee here to believe that you at no stage fired back at the people in the car when you believed that you were being fired at?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, but now I just want to explain that when I was at the left-hand side behind the vehicle, I shot at the vehicle's left wheel and from there onwards shots were fired and at that point I suspected they were coming from the vehicle and I fell back so that I cannot be hit, myself and Gen Steyn could not be shot.  In other words I accept that the shots that had been fired there were shot by other policemen to the specific vehicle, in our direction and that is why I fell back and I didn't shoot any further.

MR WEBSTER: Were you aware of only two vehicles in so far as you are concerned, Mr Botha, that were pursuing the vehicle?

MR VISSER: That's unfair, Mr Chairman, he told you of 5 vehicles.

CHAIRPERSON: Not about pursuing.  Mr Webster, what is the purpose?

MR WEBSTER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR LAX: Just put your mike on please.

MR WEBSTER: You were aware of two vehicles, one on the left that was driven by you and the one on the right, kombi that was driven by Ndaba or whoever it was, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, but also in this chase Mr Chairperson, more police vehicles joined in, it was not only the two.

MR WEBSTER: But those were not within your view, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was already dark but if I can just describe it.  This N2 was a very busy road.  It is a very busy road, it's not a question of being on a narrow road or a small road with just two or three vehicles, there were a lot of vehicles there and the fact that I was busy concentrating on this vehicle, to stop this vehicle, it all happened so quickly that you cannot be aware of all the vehicles around you, but there were other police vehicles.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha my question is, you were aware of your vehicle, naturally you were driving it, and you were also aware of the kombi, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: And you were not aware of the other vehicles.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that.

MR WEBSTER: Were you aware of the other vehicles?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There were other vehicles who were taking part in the pursuit.

MR WEBSTER: We know that the vehicles were there, Mr Botha, but what I'm saying is that at the time that what you believed to be the exchange of shots or firing was taking place, could you see and were you therefore aware of the other police vehicles?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, when a skirmish takes place, you don't really see many other things, other than ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: You are not aware of the other vehicles.  So you were aware of the kombi, you could see it?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I was aware of the kombi.

MR WEBSTER: This is where I was trying to get to.  It's not a difficult thing.

CHAIRPERSON: You know you have some difficulty here Mr Botha because explain to me where do you think that these shots that were fired, which you think were fired in your direction, from which vehicle could they have come?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, possibly in the front from the right, from the kombi.  Because I was at the left-hand side at this stage, the suspect vehicle in the middle and the kombi on the right-hand side and it had passed the vehicle, I fell back and had started shooting at the left rear wheel and shots came from the right-hand side in front of the suspect vehicle, so I would accept that it could possibly have come from the kombi's direction.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, alright, thank you.

MR WEBSTER: You could see the kombi?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I could see the kombi.

MR LAX: Who was driving that kombi, just so I can be clear in my own mind.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I believe it was one of the black members.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you likely to be much longer with this witness?

MR WEBSTER: I am, I am unfortunately, Mr Chairman.  But just a last question if you might allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You know when we watch movies, we see policemen talking into their walkie-talkies, communicating all the time when a scene like this is taking place, I think yours was silence.  Was it so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, there was radios, we were in radio contact but it was also the case that when we left kwaMashu police station, there were disruptions on our radios from time to time.  The radio communication  was bad at some stage in the pursuit of this suspect vehicle, but I did have a radio.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It's a quarter past four, we'll adjourn now and we'll resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.  Can I inquire whether it's convenient to start at 9.30 tomorrow morning?  Mr visser?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, if you so direct.  I might say that perhaps we might the session very long, but if you wish that we should start at nine, we'll start at nine thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster?

MR WEBSTER: So ordered, I will, Mr Chairman, but I had indicated earlier on that I have the problem of trying to also obtain information in cross-examining the applicants as they come.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll start at nine thirty to give you a little extra time.  We'll adjourn until nine thirty tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS