Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

MR WAGENAAR: Correct Mr Chairman, and we suggest that we mark this 
one P26 too to have it all together.  And with that Mr Chairman I have nothing 
further to say.

JUDGE WILSON: Well wait, wait, I'm coming with more queries. Other 
members of the Committee may have similar ones. I do not seem to have all the 
Exhibits listed on your list.  Now I don't know whether copies were made 
available of all these documents or whether they were merely one.

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Chairman there are two answers to your question.  
The first is you must bear in mind perhaps wisely or unwisely at the hearings in 
Pretoria we suggested and the then Chairman His Lordship Mr Justice Mall 
accepted that it might be an idea to hand in all the exhibits emanating from 
clients of Wagner, Miller and du Plessis as a P exhibit, P to 1 500, so what you 
have before you is a list of exhibits which don't only cover Ngo's case and 
Motsamai's case obviously but it contains the full list.  Now it may have been 
wise or unwise but that's part of the answer.
	The rest of the answer to your query Mr Chairman is that whenever we 
handed up documents it was always done with copies at all times.  Now if you 
would give an indication of which exhibits you miss, we will make certain that 
you have copies presented to you to replace the ones that are missing from your 
file.

JUDGE WILSON: Well perhaps rather than wasting time now 
...(intervention)

MR WAGENAAR: We'll do it during the night and will have it tomorrow 
morning.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you, we will consult with one another as to 
whether any of us have or who has or has not and let you know.

MR WAGENAAR: Perhaps after the adjournment we could wait and receive 
your instructions as to what ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Yes if we adjourn and you could come and speak for a 
few minutes.

MR WAGENAAR: Certainly Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you got all these exhibits?

MS THABETHA: Yes Mr Chair I do. Only exhibits is so far as the matter 
Ngo and Motsamai are concerned. I know that I've got more copies for the 
affidavits ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: No the affidavits we haven't had yet are the P32 to 41.

MR WAGENAAR: Perhaps we could hand them in straight away and 
...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: No but I shouldn't have them yet, that's all, they're not 
missing.

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Motsomai's application hasn't...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: The list goes up to 31.

MR WAGENAAR: Yes. We'll try to sort it out.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHA: Mr Chair before we proceed, may I just highlight it to the 
Committee members that between the application of Mr Motsamai and Mr 
Ngo, there are two matters which seem to be related to the same offences, 
namely the burning of Winnie Mandela's clinic and the bombing of Jannue 
Mohape's Ford Cortina and Elia Mohape's minibus.  It's just those two which 
are related to each other.

JUDGE WILSON: Let's look at these. the burning of the clinic, the burning of 
the Ford Cortina, I'm not sure what compare be means, petrol bombing of the 
house of Max Mokuba and the murder of Oupa Makhubalo. So how many, you 
say there are two, those two, the burning of the house and the car, and then 
there's the further mention of the attack of the attack on Oupa Makhubalo or 
attacks, matter No 13 under Motsamai, and next to it appears the letters 
compare B.

MR WAGENAAR: If I may explain, I don't want to confuse you but the 
reason why that is inserted there is merely because that is the only place where 
Mr Ngo refers to Makhubalo, but he doesn't refer to an attempted murder on 
...(indistinct), only the attack on his home.

JUDGE WILSON: The same person though.

MR WAGENAAR: Yes it's the same person.

JUDGE WILSON: That's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well perhaps we'll get to hearing the evidence that we 
have come for.

MS THABETHA: I will now hand over to Advocate Memani to lead Mr 
Ngo.  Thank you Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you Mr Chair, now Mr ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Are you going to call him now to give evidence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (sworn states)

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo at the previous hearing you testified about the 
incident relating to the death of Mr Venter.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's true.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Chair at this stage I would like to make a request 
to refer to some aspects on his evidence at that stage.  Mr Chair do I have your 
leave to do that?

JUDGE WILSON: Certainly.

ADV MEMANI: Now on the last occasion you told us that your brothers 
John and Arrie Ngo assisted you in what amounted to reburial of Mr Venter? Is 
that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's true.

ADV MEMANI: Now you also told us that you had told them that Mr Venter 
had been found in an accident and had been buried there.  Do you remember 
that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes that is so.

ADV MEMANI: Now do you wish to add anything about the involvement of 
your brothers in the incident relating to Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They helped me to bury him there, that is the only thing that they 
did because we requested their help.

ADV MEMANI: The question which arose is why did you prefer to use your 
brothers when you had informers who were available to you, why did you 
prefer them who were on your evidence some kind of a risk to the Security 
Branch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The explanation I gave is that they firstly knew the area well 
which was a municipal area where we buried Venter.  We used to use them 
because I trusted him, those were the people whom we used for information, he 
used to tell me things that I trusted that even if I told him that he should do that 
kind of a thing, he'll be on my side.  I recruited him in other words in the 
Security Branch about to be an information source.

ADV MEMANI: Now it is the first time that you're telling the Committee that 
your brothers had been your information sources and that you used them 
precisely because they were your sources and you trusted them.  Why didn't 
you tell the Committee on the previous occasion that they were your sources 
and you trusted them because of that reason?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The reason was that I was answering because in terms of the 
questions asked and I am answering now because of the question asked and 
those are the things which I was prepared to say because it was in line with the 
question.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo the question about the wire that was found 
on the neck Mr Venter do you have you anything to say regarding how it came 
about that there was a wire around his neck?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It happened that I arrived there then I shot Mr Venter. After that I 
tied his hands with wire, then I went back after to the car after I had tied his 
hands and his feet. After that when I arrived at the car, Adjutant Ramasweu 
made a decision that we should go and fetch the body.  When we arrived in the 
house we found Mr Venter while he was sleeping on the mattresses, he was 
bleeding, we were supposed to pick him up and take him out of the house. We 
saw that just to take him there there will be some blood stains on the ground.  
That is why I put a pillow case on his head, then I tied that pillow case on his 
neck so that he should not bleed and we should not have blood stains on the 
ground.  That is how the wire was there on his neck. We were awaiting blood 
stains on the floor and on the ground whilst we were taking him to the car.