Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, your signature, does it appear on any of these documents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Where does it appear?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: This is my name, Matanzima.

MR LOWIES: Which document are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Tanzer, did you go through this document with the applicant?

MS TANZER: I did do that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, would you indicate to us what signatures are being admitted as being that of his if any?

MS TANZER: He admits to having signed a document numbered U.

CHAIRPERSON: That whole bundle is U, but unfortunately it is not paginated.

MS TANZER: Okay, right, exactly, page 4.  The statement we were dealing with previously, prior to the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Did someone number this document?

MR LOWIES: Unfortunately yours was not available to be numbered.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just give us the number, this is U4?

MR LOWIES: I have one ready for you which is numbered, Chair, if that will assist you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Shall I keep this?  Thank you very much.  So it is U4?

MS TANZER: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: What about U5?

MS TANZER: Yes, he confirmed that that is his signature as well on U5.  The document from page 26 onwards, 27, 28 - yes the document from page 26 until page 31, the applicant denies having signed, that is not his signature he says.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not from U27?

MS TANZER: Yes, I have just numbered it differently, yes, U27.

MR LOWIES: No, it is U26.

MS TANZER: Well, on our - on their bundle is 27.

MR LOWIES: I think, yes, there are 37 pages in my bundle, 38 some of the other bundles.

MS TANZER: The document that starts "vir gebruik deur offisiere alleen".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MS TANZER: That document.

MR LAX: It is marked A22.

MS TANZER: A22, yes.  That is not his signature, he also notes that there is a "P" instead of an "N", so definitely ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just so that there is no confusion to the extent that this document may have some relevance, just re-check the two bundles at some point, to just make sure that we have the same documents.  Unfortunately we don't deal with arithmetic every day, I can understand the problem.

MR LOWIES: That is why I am a lawyer Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, there you admit your signature, the statement was taken by Van der Mescht, a Police Officer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is where the name Matanzima appears.

MR LOWIES: Do you know the name of this chap, Van der Mescht?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Can't recall him at all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall him.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, you testified earlier on that you handed your items to be burnt to Darkie Chonco, but that cannot be the situation  because in your statement to Mr Kjellberg from the TRC ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, for our benefit, when you go to another document, let us know.

MR LOWIES: I will do so Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Because at the moment I have U in front of me.   Have you finished with U?

MR LOWIES: I would like to turn to R now, I am finished with U.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't come back to it.  All right, so you are onto R?

MR LOWIES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: right?

MR LAX: Just to assist you Mr Lowies, just to assist you Mr Lowies, the pronunciation of that man is Kjellberg as if it was an "Sh".

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.  On page 22 of Exhibit R you indicated to Mr Kjellberg "I destroyed the TV and threw it away on a rubbish dump."

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR LOWIES: That is under paragraph 22, the last sentence thereof, page 22, paragraph 22.  What is the true situation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know.  I said I gave the TV and the video to Darkie Chonco.  I did not throw this into a rubbish dump.

MR LOWIES: So what is said here is then patently wrong on your version?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know anything about that which is written there.  I have been asked several times as to what I did with the TV and the video, and I indicated that I handed these over to Darkie Chonco, not that I took this to a rubbish dump.

MR LOWIES: It appears to me that you have a bone to pick with Darkie, is that not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the situation that the statement which says "I destroyed the TV and threw it away on a rubbish dump", that is not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am saying I gave the TV to Darkie Chonco, the TV and the video at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: You will recall that this issue came about as a result of questioning pertaining to the happenings on the 18th, the day after the Boipatong massacre?  I am asking you again, besides the burning of the loot, did anything of significance happen that day pertaining to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall.  I indicated that on the 18th, I went for a shower and came back to my room to change my clothes.

MR LOWIES: How long have you showered if you have to give us an estimation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot know.

MR LOWIES: Do you know anything of a pending attack or a threatening attack on kwaMadala hostel by anybody on that specific day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just hold on a second?   Just before you go on, the paragraph to which Counsel has just referred you to, that is paragraph 22, it doesn't talk about the video does it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know sir, but I took the TV and the video.

CHAIRPERSON: And money?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes sir, money too.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give the money to Darkie as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not give him the money.  I gave him the TV as well as the video.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure you took the video, because there is nothing in the statement indicating that you also took the video?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, he has just said that.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chair, to proceed then, the question is it appears to me that this is something that you had sucked out of your thumb, because you didn't mention it to Kjellberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did take the video and the TV, I am not sucking this from my thumb.

MR LOWIES: Where did you, or how did you manage to get these items to Boipatong, to kwaMadala from Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were transported in the casspir.  We came back on foot, and the induna's and the Police were travelling back to the hostel in this casspir.

MR LOWIES: But I am going to put it to you that there were passengers in this casspir, it would have been impossible to put the loot in the casspir, plus passengers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspir was not transporting people any more, we came back on foot.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Lowies - yes.

MR LOWIES: But what about the Policemen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the Police were also involved in the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: No, but were they not transported in the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The Police are the ones who delivered these stolen goods at kwaMadala hostel, they were accompanied by the induna's.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Counsel wants to find out from you is if the items that were stolen from Boipatong on the night of the attack, were transported back to kwaMadala in the casspirs, how did the Police then travel because there would have been no space for them in the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe you did not get me well, there were four casspirs, not one casspir.  There were four of these casspirs.

MR LOWIES: But if everybody took loot from Boipatong, then all the casspirs in any event, would have been full?

CHAIRPERSON: No one has suggested as far as we know, that everyone stole items.

MR LOWIES: Let's check this then, is it not so that all the casspirs on your version, were full with stolen loot?