Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Some of the, the one hem had definitely been altered by hand, it had, obviously it was a bought, off the peg dress, and the hem had been put up.  The other dress was a commercial hem.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, just to cut you, you are referring to ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I am trying to remember now.

MS THABETHE: Which dress are you referring to, if you can say maybe the black dress, the green dress and ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I actually cannot remember now which one, we did look at the hems.  I noticed that one had most definitely been put up.  I think it was the black dress.  I am quite happy to double check on that.  It was not something that I marked on the note.

MS THABETHE: My question was, what would you say the size of the person who wore these dresses, was?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: It is quite difficult to say because of the figure disproportion, in terms of the waist being extraordinarily large in a way, to measure because of the elastication to fit.  It could be anything from a size, I would say a size 40 would really be probably the person.
	Again, I mean, sizing, a commercial size 40 in every country, there is different sizes that operate, so I don't think that is really important at all, whether she was a 38 or a 40.  I think the point is the actual measurement as they stand.  One cannot dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: If you bought a dress like, let's say the top one, 102 waist, with these measurements, more or less what size would that be, if you bought it from it from a shop?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: From a shop would be, I would say a 40.

CHAIRPERSON: Size 40?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Maybe 42.

MS THABETHE: Would you regard the person as small or large, in your opinion?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: In my opinion, looking at the clothes, obviously the person was a large person, it is not a slim, tiny framed person.  I also didn't think the person was particularly very tall and just going on, can I mention the photograph?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I was also shown photographs this morning, and without having actually even measured the clothes, my first impression was that she had what we call a figure disproportion, in the sense that she had a very much larger breast measurement, hip measurement to a waist measurement.
	It shows in just about every, especially this one and this photograph.  That is very normal for people to be like that, so that the bust measure and the hip measure is much bigger than the waist, the actual, physical waist measure.
	If somebody has a big breast or big hips, does not mean that they don't have a small waist measure very often.

CHAIRPERSON: Some people are shaped like tubes, and there is very little between the top and the hip and the waist?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: We actually did this exercise, I measured Lynn and I measured Thabisa, who - a very similar situation, they've got very small waist, but very wide hips.  It is quite normal.  It is not what we would say is the model figure, in some sense, but it is very normal.  You get a lot of people with this figure disproportion.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, those are the questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions you would like to put to Mrs Fick-Jordaan?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, may I just enquire from Ms Fick-Jordaan, whether she will be available tomorrow as well, tomorrow morning?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I am sorry, I have a problem, this has come at quite short notice, I have to be in Eshowe all day tomorrow, and overnight.

MR VISSER: Yes, no, you don't have to apologise.  I am hoping that I will be able to cover everything that I should cover, Chairperson.   Can I just try to understand what you are saying, did you use the phrase the waist is extraordinarily large, is that what you said?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: No, I didn't say the waist, we are talking about the measurement of the waist.  What it means is that it is quite a straight cut, which means one cannot pin-point from the dress, and get exact measurements of the size of the waist of the person, because of the styling of the dress, it is elasticised, it is not like a normal skirt, that is fitted, or a dress that is fitted, that would be darted, with a zip.

MR VISSER: I heard all of that.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: The actual, so it is not, when I said that, I didn't mean that the waist in particular is bigger, but all I am trying to say is that it is not unusual.

MR VISSER: Mrs Jordaan, did I hear you incorrectly when you said when you measured the dresses, you found the waist to be extraordinarily large?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: No, I think I am sorry, I didn't mean that.

MR VISSER: I am not talking about the person, I am talking about the dress?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, I don't think it is, if I look at my measurements, it is not that large.

MR VISSER: What would be average?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, the average is, on all the measurements, the waists were the same, on all three dresses, except for the exhumed dress which was 2 cm smaller.

MR VISSER: Alright.  You see, and you were then asked what, I think it was by the Chairperson, what would you consider the size of the person would have been that wore those dresses, and then you said "from size 40", is that correct?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: 40, 42, that is what I said.

MR VISSER: Yes,  what I want to know from you is, is it from size 40 upwards, or from size 40 downwards, what did you intend to say?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, I said it is very difficult to say because the size of the person is actually very difficult to ascertain, because of the style of the clothes.  I said that.  The dresses themselves are not fitted, the styling is not fitted, so it is very difficult to get an actual size on the person that they would fit.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did you say that the person who wore those dresses, had a very large bust measurement?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: What do you say, in proportion to what?

MR VISSER: I don't know, I am talking about your evidence.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I said that I thought that the bust and the hip measurement were much larger, disproportionately large to the waist measurement.

MR VISSER: Alright.  You see, can I summarise your evidence, that you really can draw you conclusions from your measurements as to the size of this person and that in effect, it has been a fruitless exercise?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I would disagree with you, because I think the fact that we are sitting with three dresses here in the same style, number one, usually people tend to like a style and have clothes on the same style, especially if you are a person with figure disproportions you are going to find a style of dress that suits you.
	What I think is very significant here is in fact all three dresses are more or less on the same styling, significantly all have more or less the same waist measurement, they are all elasticised and I think from that in itself, tells you a lot.

MR VISSER: You don't understand my question.  My question is, is it, would it be correct to say that from your measurements you cannot tell us much about the person, the size of the person who wore these dresses, except that she was large?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, I think ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think she did say in her evidence that the waist to shoulder height indicates a short person, didn't you say that?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, I did say that from the dresses you can tell that it is not a very tall person and that the fact that the bust measure, the dresses would have fitted a person, all three dresses would have fitted a person of the same size, which I think is crucial, because all three would fit a person with a bust of 110, the waists are the same and those are the crucial measurements.