Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I don't know Sir, whether they are Xhosas or Zulu victims.  I think we are multi-racial Sir, I don't regard that as a Xhosa group.

MR MALAN: Mr Motlokwa, you gave evidence on several occasions referring to Xhosa speaking and Zulu speaking people, why now suddenly is everybody multi-racial?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Explain your question further Sir.

MR MALAN: I was asking whether indeed there was a division between Xhosa and Zulu dominance in the SDU and in the Youth League.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I did not put it that way.  I said, within the SDU the Youth League was ruled by the Xhosas, people who came from the rural areas, I think I put it that way.  I didn't say there was a fight between the Xhosas and the Zulu's within the ANC Youth League.  I said the youth said they were not going to be ruled by people from the rural areas.

MR MALAN: You indeed said Transkei.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now why would they not be ruled by people from the Transkei?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They have knowledge to that effect, they know why they don't want to be ruled by people from the rural area.

MR MALAN: In some of the applications and especially in some of the statements from victims there's reference to the parents and especially the mothers of some of the people who were killed, who wanted to stop the killing, do you have any knowledge of any of the mothers trying to prevent the killing of their children?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Unfortunately I did not see mothers trying to plead for their children, I did not see them.

MR MALAN: Have you no knowledge of any parent who pleaded for the lives of their children?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No.

MR MALAN: There will also be evidence or there is evidence before us in writing from some of the mothers saying that when they wanted to stop this killing, when you were taking the children out into the veld, that they were told: "You can pick up your dogs in the veld".

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is news to me.

MR MALAN: You have at no stage had any of the parents of the deceased intervening or pleading or talking on behalf of their children?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson.  I said I did not see them pleading for their children.

MR MALAN: And neither did you hear them plead?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After these children were killed I only saw parents crying but to plead for the lives of their children, I did not see.

MR MALAN: You talked about shootings on more than one occasion.  The one occasion was when some of your members went to fetch the Red Cross, you say they were shot at by the youths, was anybody injured?  They managed to escape you say, was any one of them injured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No-one was injured.  The car was damaged, all the windows were shattered but they survived.

MR MALAN: And on the occasion of the capture of the first two persons, that was preceded by a shoot-out you said.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me a little about that shooting, was there being shot from both sides?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, both sides were shooting but I do not know whether on their side they were hit by bullets but on our side nobody was injured.

MR MALAN: But you captured two people there at that shooting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were there more people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, there were more people but they ran away.

MR MALAN: But you captured two?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did they have guns?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, they only had parcels, the things they took from the Spaza shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be from Blanko's Spaza shop?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: That fight, the second shoot-out that you're talking about, in your evidence in chief you said that you were fighting with them until 3 o'clock in the morning, so how long did that shoot-out last?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said Chair, that we went out looking for them and when we found them the shooting ensued and they ran away and we followed them, looking around, there were no lights but we were in the company of the captured two.

MR MALAN: Then on several occasions you used the phrase that: "When people are angry they can't be controlled, their emotions were high", in fact in re-examination your advocate put this question to you again about the high emotions and the uncotrollability of people, that is correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now, Bulelwa and Blanko were very close to the SDU, you worked together?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: When they were killed, were the members of the SDU angry?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.  I told you already that Bulelwa was killed at about 9 o'clock and then I was fetched from home to guard the corpse and after Bulelwa's death Blanko was attacked.

MR MALAN: The question is not about the facts, my question is about your members then being very angry and emotions running high, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, their emotions were high.

MR MALAN: I would simply say to myself, the emotions amongst the members of the SDU must have been even higher than amongst the community.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I don't know whether the emotions of the SDU and the emotions of the community, I can't tell who among the two was emotionally high.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment, we will come back at twenty past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any reason why we are starting 10 minutes late?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, I think there may have been a lack of communication because I came and warned the Committee members that I will depend on them but otherwise we are ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Is the first applicant here?

MR MAPOMA: He has not yet arrived Chairperson, but the briefing I got from our logistics officer is that these police confirmed that they are coming with him but he is not yet here.

CHAIRPERSON: How long does it take to go to prison and bring a person to Boksburg from Johannesburg?

MR MAPOMA: To be honest Chairperson, that is what I myself find very difficult to understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  Would you please investigate the cause of this delay and please let us know what is the cause of the delay because I find this unacceptable.  The first applicant should have been here this morning when we commenced proceedings.

MR MALAN: Mr Motlokwa, may I pursue two matters.  The first is, in your evidence in chief you said that if you are on patrol and you find someone on the street and he does not respond it's very difficult, you were talking about the curfew.  Were you saying that some of these people were shot on the spot?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we did not shoot at people during the patrol, we did not shoot at people during the patrol Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So what was the difficulty them if people didn't respond, what did you do?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said yesterday that we will report this to the community, we will tell the community that there are people who disturb us in our duty.

MR MALAN: But you did nothing to the people, you don't capture them, you don't apprehend the, you just report that there are people, is that what you're saying?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, some of them were assaulted at times.

MR MALAN: Yes?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They would be assaulted and that person would be accompanied to his home so that he could sleep.

MR MALAN: And if you would find that that person is not living in the community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, you now want me to speak about the Katlehong in general.  If we shout: "One" and he doesn't respond: "One", then it was difficult for us because at times this person would shoot at us and then we have to act, if he acts then we act.