Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

H J P BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to start?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MR WILLS: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Botha, yesterday we were dealing with the meeting of the 13th July, when - sorry the meeting of the 11th, where you and Mr Steyn attended at Pretoria and met with Gen van der Merwe, who at that stage was the most senior member in the country.

H J P BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, I was asking you at that stage why you didn't inform Gen van der Merwe that these arrests had already been made.  Can you just refresh my memory as to what your answer was in that regard?

H J P BOTHA: Because Ndaba was an informer, it was not necessary for me to inform Gen van der Merwe, seen in the light of the fact that Mbuso Shabalala were already unlawfully in our presence and had been longer than the applicable time, that is why I did not inform Gen van der Merwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that the purpose of the meeting was something else?

H J P BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just refresh my memory, what was the main purpose of that meeting?

H J P BOTHA: The purpose of the meeting and our visit to Pretoria was, (1) to inform the Chief of Security, General Basie Smit with regard to the information and in regard of operation Vula and after we had informed him he requested that we also inform Gen van der Merwe and that was done the morning of the 12th and that was the purpose.

MR WILLS: So obviously by this stage you formed an opinion and this opinion was obviously shared by your superior Mr Steyn that the information you had was of such magnitude that it was necessary to convey this  to Pretoria to the most senior people involved?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MR WILLS: And in addition to that you conveyed this information to the most senior security policeman and the most senior policeman, the security policeman being Basie Smit and the most senior policeman being Gen van der Merwe?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR WILLS: They in turn agreed with you that this was crucial information?

H J P BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And, sorry, Basie Smit agreed with you that it was crucial information and therefore he arranged a personal audience for you and Mr Steyn to see Gen van der Merwe the next day?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR WILLS: It was so important, the matter could not wait?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR WILLS: You met with van der Merwe at what time the next morning, on the 11th?

H J P BOTHA: It was, we saw Gen Smit in the vicinity of 7 o'clock.

MR WILLS: It was translated as Gen Smit, I'm talking about Gen van der Merwe, at 7 in the morning.

H J P BOTHA: Correct, first thing.

MR WILLS: So obviously the information that you had obtained through your informer was regarded by the whole police and security structures at that time as crucial.

H J P BOTHA: That's what I already said, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now not only did Basie Smit agree with you, so too did Gen van der Merwe.  He realised immediately the extreme importance of the situation to the extent that he issued what I think you conceded was an order that you mustn't continue with arrests in this matter until such time as very senior people have been involved and he referred to, in your evidence, the State President and Foreign Affairs and
 various embassies?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So obviously I would assume that even though you're a very experienced Security Branch member, this was an unusual occurrence for you?

H J P BOTHA: I would not say that it was unusual circumstances, the request that arrests not be made until a more appropriate time was not strange.

MR WILLS: Let me rather be more specific.  What I'm referring to as being unusual is that you have to travel to Pretoria to meet with such senior people in order to get their input and those senior people say they have to go to the highest authority in the land in order to inform them of the situation, that's the uniqueness of the situation I'm referring to.

H J P BOTHA: Yes and the uniqueness thereof, you are quite correct, is because of the circumstances which reigned in South Africa at that stage and that was the negotiations between the South African Government and the ANC.  This is what made this situation unique.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now I must put it to you that I find it particularly strange that it is clear that the evidence or the conversation with van der Merwe, did centre around arrests and the sensitivity of those arrests, because he wanted to delay them until such a time as the other important organs of government had been informed.  Why at that stage?  You didn't say to him, "Well you know General we have in fact before coming here made certain arrests in relation to this important operation and so you'd better take that into account when you advise these other important people."

H J P BOTHA: Gen van der Merwe was not informed about the unlawful arrest of Shabalala.

MR WILLS: I realise that.  I'm asking you to explain why you didn't, even though this subject was discussed.  I find it, to be frank, Mr Botha, I find it incredible that this was not brought to the attention of the senior people in the circumstances.

H J P BOTHA: Very simple explanation Chairperson, one would not place the Commissioner of Police in a position where I had acted illegally and inform him and then he must explain it and therefore he will become part of the whole thing.

MR WILLS: So in other words, you made a conscious decision to hide your actions from your own superiors?

H J P BOTHA: That's what I've already said, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, you receive instructions from the most senior policeman in South Africa to delay these arrests.  Now this was not a routine instruction.

H J P BOTHA: But it was not strange.  Previously such requests had been made.

MR WILLS: From the most senior policeman in the country for the reasons under which this instruction was given?

H J P BOTHA: In this instance it came from him for reasons as I have explained already.  The scope of the Operation Vula as it was known to us at that stage, made him decide to inform certain instances first before we commence with the arrests and this led to his instructions of do not arrest until they tell us when everybody is informed.

MR WILLS: We know what led to his instruction.  You've explained that before, with respect, Mr Botha, what I'm again emphasising is that it was unique that Gen Botha gave you this instruction to delay the arrest.  It was an unusual occurrence for you.  You don't every day get your orders from Gen Botha.  I would expect ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You mean Gen van der Merwe, sorry Mr wills.

MR WILLS: I apologise, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  you don't usually get your instructions from Gen van der Merwe in this regard.  I would expect that you might get them from Col Taylor or Mr Steyn or someone along those lines.  It's a unique occurrence for you to get such an instruction from the most senior policeman, that's what I'm referring to.

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MR WILLS: Now, surely because of that, because of that mere uniqueness of the situation that the most senior policeman had given you this instruction, you would have sometime shortly after your meeting which commenced at 7 o'clock, sorry what time did the meeting end?

H J P BOTHA: About 15 minutes, half an hour later.