Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR SHEZI: Now I am confused, I am talking about the AK which you have admitted that you were in control of, that you had to give, I am asking did you have to give sanction - you were in control as to the use and control of that weapon?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: My question is if that weapon was going to be taken and be used elsewhere be it Chesterville or kwaMashu, you had to give sanction to it, because you had control?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, it is already in possession of a person who quite probably if the necessity had developed or the possible use of that had developed, then he could have used this weapon for this and this is why the weapon was drawn.

MR SHEZI: So when it comes to Nortje's taking of this weapon to Chesterville, you are no longer in control of it, you are not in charge, you are not part of the Management System at that time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, it is a question of delegation.  It is not that the weapon had been given to someone who may not have been in possession of this weapon, it was delegated authorisation and if he believed that he could achieve success by gaining information or at least gaining someone's confidence, that he could have used this weapon for this purpose.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr de Kock, this weapon was gotten with the aim of convincing people or at least mislead people that the person showing the weapon to them, had also been part of the liberation movements?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is true Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: You would have, if you had this weapon in your possession, you had to go and show this weapon to these people, would this have shown any purpose?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not myself as a white person Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So you gave this weapon with the aim of it being used by people who could convince these people that they were fellow members of the same movement?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is true Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And then just to follow the line right through, if we accept that the weapon had been in Chesterville on this specific incident, then the indications are very strong that an attempted infiltration must have been made?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.   I was not at the scene, but I will speculate now if it had been done on request of Radebe and if he lodged this request to Nortje, then he must have believed that they would attempt to infiltrate.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chair.   The killing of this three Security Policemen, do you know as to how was it concluded that those who might have killed them, were comrades or ANC activists?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I think that naturally the weapons that had been used, this would have led to the belief that they were MK members.  We would not have come to look for comrades.

MR SHEZI: But did you double check that, whether the weapons which  were used, were suggestive of that which is ANC activists might have killed those Security Policemen?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I believe at that stage when we came here, that information had been given to us.   The Head of Security Branch at that stage, or the Division Head, was experienced Security Police officers, Col Taylor was seen as an expert in his area, they wouldn't have misled us.

MR SHEZI: You said after you had received the report about that there was a shooting in Chesterville, you got up and dressed and then you went to the scene?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I wouldn't say that I went to the scene, I think we first went to the police station, I am not sure which one this was, and I think, I think I met Col Taylor there.

MR SHEZI: Who went with you to the police station?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I know about Nortje, I cannot recall van Dyk to my memory, but I know that myself and Nortje went to the police station.

MR SHEZI: This AK, do you know if it was used during the shooting?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I heard this later on.

MR SHEZI: What did you hear later on?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot give evidence to this effect, but I think Magage told me that when the shooting took place, he used the AK to defend himself.  It was something in this line, I cannot testify on his behalf.

MR SHEZI: The attack on the police officers, in other words, Radebe's group and the askaris, the incident in question, wouldn't this have been more of an incentive or rather an encouragement for your group to stick around in Durban to further seek to infiltrate ANC activists, because clearly this should have established a trend that there is really the killing of policemen around here?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, as I said if I can remember correctly, I stayed here for a while and I held eight or nine of the askaris with me.   We also received orders then.  If Durban felt that for some or other reason it would have been better for us to go and work on the border to prevent exfiltration, then I would have gone to do this work.

MR SHEZI: But wouldn't you say the Chesterville incident established that there is really a trend of killing police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I cannot say that Chairperson.  In any case broadly speaking on a national basis, it had been practice that police officers, especially black police officers had been murdered.

MR SHEZI: Do you have any idea as to why after the shooting, your members just left the scene without calling for reinforcements?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, that area as it was also mentioned back then, was a liberated area.  The comrades were in full control of this area.   The people could possibly have stayed there and if 400 or 500 of a crowd had come down on them, and they shot another 100 people, then the next question would have been don't we have to withdraw now.  For this reason, when I went to the police station that morning, we waited there for reinforcements, we went in a group, we did not go there as individuals to the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Kock, this is precisely one of the questions here, evidence before us is that they had withdrawn in a hurry, immediately if I remember correctly, they had withdrawn immediately from the scene.  Reference had been made to Nortje's statement that says that he went to Chesterville, but the effect of all these actions were that they had gone from Chesterville to C R Swart, they don't know the distance, we will hear the distance later on, that they had withdrawn.  Based on all indications before us, there were no immediate steps done to go and look for these attackers,  it could possibly have been the people that your members were looking for?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I will not be able to answer on behalf of the members that had been on the scene, I am just trying to help us to sort this out, and this is why I am telling you that it could be that askaris had attacked the people, maybe there weren't enough of them.  Maybe we will have to ask the members who were there.

CHAIRPERSON: I do realise this.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: What made them decide to get away, what made Nortje decide to say let's first go back, there has to be reasons for this.