Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that R100 000 of course, the way it's contained in your statement, R100 000 was approved for the whole project.  It doesn't necessarily mean the fee to kill a person, it would have included disbursements, travelling expenses, hotels, etcetera.

GEORGE BIZOS: You in answer to Mr Lax, spoke about indemnity that would be given to you for all your actions because they would be considered legal.  Is that - have we understood you correctly?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is approximately what I said, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I'm going to put to you that you couldn't have believed that, and eventually the evidence of Mr Verster and Mr Burger was that no such promise of indemnity was made, promises were made that you would try and defeat the ends of justice, but not that you would get indemnity.  I know they didn't use the expression "defeat the ends of justice", but that is what it amounts to.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I believed unconditionally that I would not be prosecuted.  How ever they would orchestrate and execute it was not important to me.  The fact of the matter was that I was not supposed to be prosecuted.

GEORGE BIZOS: Tell me, did you ever yourself receive an order, either directly or indirectly down the line, from the Head of the Army, the Minister of Defence, to provide true evidence to the Harms Commission?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not individually.  In the media, if I recall correctly, it was stated by among others, the State President that there should be honest evidence during these proceedings.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well did you discuss this with - you know a newspaper report may not have the authority of one of your leaders in the organisation, did you ask whether the State President and the Minister of Defence had ordered that you should provide true evidence to the Harms Commission?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With the discussions that took place, these were in our structure, I heard from the discussions which took place what the evidence would be and I abided by that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever get any orders to the contrary, that you must mislead the Commission?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again, there was a complex situation between Mr Verster, the Generals in Staff, the Minister of Defence, the State President, with regard to our existence and discussions were led regarding the matter.  What the nature and scope of the discussions were, I cannot tell you ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Sir, it was a simple question.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: But I cannot give you any other answer, I cannot recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you receive any order to mislead the Commission?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall it that specifically.

CHAIRPERSON: If not order, any request, any suggestion.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: What I can tell you is that discussions took place there and I cannot recall one hundred percent of the details and I will have to stand by that.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) correctly you said this morning that there was at least a serious suggestion if not an order, that you should mislead the Commission.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not use the word "mislead".

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I know, but the effect of that.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is debatable, the word "effect" is debatable.
...(end of side B of tape ... no continuation for Mr Lax's question)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: And then you decided to abide by that version.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR LAX: So you guys actually got together and worked out a version based on what you knew would be told to the Harms Commission, and you all stuck to that version.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In all probability, yes Sir, that is what could have happened.

MR LAX: And you knew full well that that version did not incorporate the full truth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I wouldn't say the full truth, most probably not as elaborate, but ...

MR LAX: No, let's not play games here, it's not about ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Mr Lax, I cannot say.

MR LAX: No, no.  You see you've already told me this, you've already told me that you left out certain facts.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is why I'm saying to you no, it was not that elaborate.

MR LAX: So if you left out facts, then it wasn't the full truth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It may not have been the full truth, but a part of the truth.

MR LAX: Well it figures, part of the truth is not the full truth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept it so.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, after you detention did you have any contact at all with Gen Krappies Engelbrecht?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not as far as I can recall, I do not think so.  No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see in your application for amnesty we can understand that you being confused while under Section 29, in paragraph 7 in your application for amnesty, on page 15 of bundle A - please read it out.

CHAIRPERSON: Right at the bottom of page 15, the last line, bundle A.
MR BOTHA
"I would like to indicate that I saw the higher command of the State President as the upper Commander of the Defence Force, and I would like to say that I also gave my co-operation for the Commission in this regard."

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You can interpret it in that way.  I stated it in the way in which I thought it good and within the framework which I thought was the truth I testified.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LAX: Just repeat your ...

GEORGE BIZOS: You there go - sorry the previous question?

MR LAX: No, no, just the statement you've been making now didn't come over, so it won't be recorded.

GEORGE BIZOS: You there go further and you say that you distinguish yourself, or you exclude yourself from the general CCB "verneukery" because you in consonance with the State President and the Head of the Army and the Minister of Defence, told the whole truth.  That's an outrageous lie.  On your own evidence.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I did follow most of the things, I testified in front of the Commission, I did give them my co-operation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well I won't repeat my questions or argue with you, we know what your attitude is.
	Now I'm merely going to put to you, to give you an opportunity to respond to the suggestion that we are going to make in argument, that the terms of your employment, the bonuses that you got, the package that you got, are factors which may properly be described, a view for your motive for committing these crimes was personal gain.  Do you wish to say anything in relation to that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At no stage was it to get personal gain.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we will argue that the facts speak for themselves.
	You said that you went to Mr du Toit as your counsel, to ask for advice and you were advised that the Rosscam incident was not a sufficiently serious violation to come within the ambit of the Act.  Did you disclose all the facts to Mr du Toit?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we know Du Toits as senior counsel, a tall one and a short one, which one did you go to?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Etienne du Toit is the one to which I refer.

CHAIRPERSON: The one who writes the books, the Criminal Procedure book?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, that was the ex-A-G person, the short one.
	Now, did you tell him that you used the money for yourself?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I cannot recall, I told him what occurred during the project.  This is what I can remember now.

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you say, in the evidence of Gen Webb and Mr Verster they both deny that they had any knowledge of it or authorised any such project?  In fairness to the General, it may not even have been a matter with his province, or that his authority was not required.  What do you say to that evidence?