Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I want clarify that when I joined in 1985, there was a unit which was responsible for Lesotho and then they had already had informers in Lesotho and when I joined this particular unit in 1987, I was given the responsibility of handling other informers.  And then when I stated that I used to go to Lesotho, I mentioned that particular group which was given to me to handle.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	In other words, what you are trying to say is that Betty Boom was under house arrest.  That's what it boils down to, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I would say so, because I was guarding her.

MR VISSER: And upon a question put by Mr Lax, you have already stated that she was not free to go wherever she pleased and that in that manner she was restricted.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I just want to tell you that the Panel would like to hear whether you know that if Betty Boom was an informer, why it would have been necessary for her to be put under house arrest.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't know as to whether my clarification would be acceptable.  As I did not know the relationship of these two with Betty Boom, I found myself being given this responsibility to guard her.  As to whether why did I guard her, being an informer, I did not know.  Those who were my seniors then would give a better explanation why was it responsible(?) for me to guard Betty Boom, being an informer.

MR VISSER: You did not know how reliable she was?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I did not know.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that concludes Betty Boom.  I don't know whether you want to take the adjournment for tea now, or whether you wish to go on.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the tea adjournment and we'll take fifteen minutes.  We adjourn for tea.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: In my possession I've been handed, or rather, I have Mr Thulo's South African passport which was handed to me during tea and you'll recall that he was telling us about this six months entry without having your passport stamped.  Am I putting it correctly?  May I just ask something in this respect.  	Mr Thulo, I notice that you can go in for periods of six months in and out of Lesotho with this document, as you explained in your evidence-in-chief.  Would I be right?  Just to reaffirm it.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just, this is what I want to know.  When you have a stamp of this nature, it would appear that when you go through this stamp of entry and exit allows you just to go in without further stamping.  Would I be correct in that respect?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now for easy access and checking wouldn't you show it to the authorities at the border gates?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I recall that for them to look for other things and to see this kind of a stamp, it is the reason why we had to have this pass, so that we should not at all times produce our passport or our identity document.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they know you at these border gates as those persons with such type of document?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believed so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So do I understand you to say that because you had this you didn't have to go to the customs authorities, you just had to go without showing it to them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Before Mr Lax asks anything I would ask somebody to show it to the other legal representatives.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair.
	Sorry Mr Thulo, I'm just a little bit puzzled.  This document is actually stamped into your passport, it's a stamp, it's not a document, it's a stamp that's in your passport, that says you have unrestricted access, or words to that effect, for six months at a time.  Isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I explained earlier, Chairperson, that it's not a separate document but it's a stamp within your passport, so that at all times immediately when they see this stamp they know that you have access or you have a pass for six months.
CHURCH BELL TOLLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.  I'm sorry about that Mr Thulo, because I would miss some other things.  Oh, there it goes again.

INTERPRETER: And I just told him to drink some water, because he wants to cough out.

CHAIRPERSON: No bell tolls more than three times, I think we can safely proceed.
CHURCH BELL TOLLS AGAIN

MR LAX: All the theories fly out the window.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I'm sorry about that, but in all fairness to you, Mr Thulo, I would request my Committee Member to state his question again to you, not that you should start from the middle.  I'll allow him to do that.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, the thrust of my question, and I'm going to start at the beginning where we left off from the Chairperson, and this that - and you've already confirmed this, that this is a stamp in your passport, it's not a separate document as such.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And when you get to the border you obviously have to show your passport to someone and show them that you have this stamp in it?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So you do actually stop at the border, show your passport and then you're entitled to proceed?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR LAX: Were you known at the border?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe so, Chairperson, that I was known.

MR LAX: Who were you known by at the border?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I need some light in regard to the question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: There are two parts to the question.  Which people knew you at the border, was it the border guards themselves, was it the police, was it the immigration officials, was it everybody?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, the people who knew me were those who were members of the South African Police and who were working at the border gate.

MR LAX: And then on the Lesotho side?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: They knew me, Chairperson, no by my true identity or by name.

MR LAX: Well did you show them a different passport when you got to the Lesotho side?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So if somebody looked at your passport, how would they not know your name?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would say they did not know me, particularly in the Lesotho border.  When we passed there we were not calling ourselves by our true name.  When I passed there they would say: "It's okay.  Leave".  I did not hear at a particular time, hearing people from Lesotho calling me by my name.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow.  They wouldn't do that, because you produce a document, they see the document, there's the name Thulo, Michael Daele and then they would say: "pass".  Or did you expect them to call  you and say: "Mr Thulo, go past"?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I thought so.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take when you came back with Ms Betty Boom, what exactly happened, did you just drive through, or you produced your South African passport?  Bear in mind that the four of you went in, when you came back you were now five.  Because when you went in, Betty Boom was not there and when you came back she was in your company.  What happened, what did you do at the Lesotho border gate where you had to produce documents?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I do not recall producing our documents, because when I arrived I would greet and say: "I'm now going.  They would say: "Okay, proceed".  I do not remember the border officials asking me the contents of the car or asking us questions, because from the Lesotho border they would not know with whom I was when I entered and with whom am I leaving when I left.