Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-16

MR NTJALI: Even though I cannot have sufficient information about this Committee, I think my problem is that what I've heard is that one needs to come forward and tell the whole truth.

MR MAPOMA: And then after telling the whole truth, what do you know about that?

MR NTJALI: I heard that if it is the truth and the only truth, that person receives amnesty and forgiveness.

UNKNOWN: At some stage according to your affidavit which appears at page 31, you applied for amnesty for another incident, is that correct?

MR NTJALI: No, I've never applied, except that I filled in the application form.

UNKNOWN: What application form did you fill in?

MR NTJALI: There were many forms in prison and we were given those forms to fill them and I filled one.

UNKNOWN: What was your aim when you filled in that form?

MR NTJALI: To answer those questions which were in that form in connection with the incident I was relating in that form.

UNKNOWN: Briefly what incident was this?  What was the incident about, the one you were relating in this particular form which you say you filled in?  Just very briefly.

MR NTJALI: Another incident of murder and I was also convicted and sentenced for that incident.

UNKNOWN: Is that the incident you say in your affidavit you were refused amnesty for?

MR NTJALI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, thank you.  Thanks Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not fill an application form for this robbery incident when you completed an application form for that murder?

MR NTJALI: As I've already mentioned before is that this one was difficult for me because I didn't know that Hlongwane had applied for amnesty therefore I knew that if I wanted to apply for amnesty, I was going to be forced to tell the truth and the truth was going to put Hlongwane in trouble.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mapoma, may I just come in here?  The murder charge, were you the only accused there or were there other people as well involved?

MR NTJALI: We were two.

ADV BOSMAN: And the other person there, did he apply for amnesty?

MR NTJALI: I'm not certain.  He told me that he had submitted the forms.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: When you were given these forms, amnesty application forms in prison, were you not told by the prison officials who must complete this form and for what?

MR NTJALI: No, we were not told, they were just giving the forms to any of us.

UNKNOWN: I understand you to say you completed this form because you wanted to get amnesty.  You wanted ...(ethnic) for the murder case you were referring to, not so?

MR NTJALI: No, that is not so.  When the investigator came, he asked me if I had applied for amnesty and I told him that no, I only filled application forms and then he asked me as to the outcome and I told him that no, I didn't appear before the TRC but what happened is that I received a letter that my application was unsuccessful.

UNKNOWN: You completed that application form for amnesty because you wanted to appear before the Amnesty Committee and explain what this incident was about and give oral evidence, is that what you wanted?

MR NTJALI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: In other words, at that stage you understood what amnesty was about.  When he asked you if you had applied for amnesty, you didn't say to him "What are you talking about?"  You didn't say that, you said "Yes, I have completed the form."

MR NTJALI: Yes, he did ask if I made an application to the Amnesty Committee and I told him that I filled in forms but then it was sent back that it was not successful.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not true, or correct, that you did not complete an amnesty application form for the incident of robbery because you knew that it had no political motivation?

MR NTJALI: No, that's not true.

MR MAPOMA: Why do you say so?

MR NTJALI: I am saying so because Hlongwane was the one who came to us and told us we should go and rob that factory in order to get money to buy weapons, so that we protect our community.

UNKNOWN: Do you have access to radios and videos and TV. news in prison?

MR NTJALI: Yes, we do have televisions and radios, but we don't have newspapers.

MR MAPOMA: I have no further questions.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions.

UNKNOWN: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Ntjali, what do you understand by the application for amnesty?

MR NTJALI: I don't have a clear picture or full knowledge of amnesty, but what I'm hearing is that the TRC forgives people but there was never a single time where I was sitting down with someone who lectured or told me exactly what it's all about.

UNKNOWN: Yes, what I need to establish is, do you understand what is the end result, apart from just having been forgiven, if a person is successful, do you know what is the end result of a successful application?

MR NTJALI: You mean if one's application is successful?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you said the TRC forgives the people.
What does that mean?

MR NTJALI: It means that you are forgiven for that crime.

ADV BOSMAN: Then what happens once you are forgiven?

MR NTJALI: If one has been forgiven, one finds it easy to cope and in fact that person is expected to show it that he or she is grateful for being forgiven for his or her sins.

UNKNOWN: If you are serving a term of imprisonment, what happens to you if you've been forgiven by the TRC, as you put it?

MR NTJALI: I'll be born again, because right now I know that I'm faced with this hard time that I'm going to stay in prison for a long time.  I don't know how I can thank the TRC, I don't know how I can express those feelings.  I'll be very much happy and I would also want to thank, not knowing how to thank.  Even the victims, I would like to explain and express my remorse to them because it was because of the situation which forced us or forced myself to do those things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Harkoo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntjali thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Harkoo?

UNKNOWN: I have one more witness I would like to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Bongnkosi Elvis Zulu.

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Harkoo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  This witness will merely explain or confirm the applicant's involvement in the Self Defence Unit and confirm the fact that the whole incident was politically motivated.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zulu, do you know the applicant, Mr Alex Bekhani Hlongwane?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And how long do you know him?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: For a long time now.

UNKNOWN: Were you a member of any political organisation?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And which organisation was this?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: ANC.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether the applicant, Mr Alex Bekhani Hlongwane was a member of any political organisation?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you know what role Mr Alex Hlongwane played in the organisation?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the members of the Committee what role he played?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: I know Mr Hlongwane as a member of SDU and he was one person we used to hang around with him in the SDU.  He was active and we were helping the community.

UNKNOWN: Were you also a member of the SDU?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you were one of the co-accused with Mr Hlongwane in the incident that took place in February 1992?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How was it that you became involved in this incident?

BONGNKOSI ELVIS ZULU: The reason I got involved, it was because of the situation in the area.  People were shooting at us and we couldn't protect ourselves and the community.

UNKNOWN: And what happened?  How did you get involved in this particular incident?