Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: : Order please.  Just wait, could you please just, order please, order please! I don't want to clear this room.  When I say order, I've said this before, when I say order, I expect you to keep quiet.  If you don't want to keep quiet, you have the perfect right to be outside of this hall.  I'm not going to have us disturb by yourselves, those of you that would want to obey my request for order.  I'll say this just once again.  If I say order,  I mean, please keep quiet.  If you are unable to do so, don't let me ask that the hall be emptied.
 Do you want to conclude this part of your question?  I think that we should probably break for lunch.

MR VALLY: : Archbishop, I expect to be another five minutes.  Either we could break now, or we can finish?

CHAIRPERSON: : Let's complete this.

MR VALLY: : Thank you very much.
 There were two people present.  You and Serg. Pretorius.  Serg. Pretorius is now dead as we know.  You are with us.  Can you please tell us what information you gave Serg. Pretorius?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: : Did you see Mr Erasmus and Mr Moodley at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please answer the question.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: What were they doing there?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you referring to Mr Moodley who gave evidence at this hearing?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  Did you gave information to the police regarding the presence of Mr (indistinct) and Mr (indistinct) at your house, namely the persons you called (indistinct)?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: My question is this, you demanded money from Mr Moodley, before you gave him any information on the basis that you were owed money for informing the police about the presence of Debogo and Sipho on your premises?  To whom did you give this information to?  Was it Serg. Pretorius?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: : Did you give information to Serg. Pretorius regarding the presence of Thobogo and Sipho on you premises?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Now Serg. Pretorius was shot dead in your kitchen, at the same time that Thobogo and Sipho shot dead in your kitchen.  I need to know this, when you were arrested when the police attacked your house.  Were there a large number of police present at the attack?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So if there were so many police present at your house and if they were aware that there were two trained armed guerillas in your house, why was it that Serg. Pretorius was allowed to enter the house alone where he was shot dead?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why is that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please come back to the question, Mr Richardson.  We have had complaints from Serg. Pretorius's sister.  There is something very strange that took place at your house.  The house is surrounded by a large number of policemen.  Yet one policemen who happens to be your handler, go in alone and is found dead on the kitchen floor.  How did this happened?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Were you present when this attack on your house took place?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: What did you see?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you see Serg. Pretorius enter your house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any reason why Serg. Pretorius entered your house alone when the house was surrounded by a large number of policemen?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Will you please tell us the reason?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please, Mr Richardson.  You've already told us you informed the police that there were two armed trained guerillas in your house.  You've already told us that amongst other people, Serg. Pretorius was your handler.  You've already told us that there were enough policemen to fill Orlando stadium who surrounded your house.  Why did Serg. Pretorius entered your house alone?  You were outside with your Valiant as you said.
 There has been a suggestion that Serg. Pretorius was silent.  This is a complaint that we've got from his sister which complaint to our Human Right Violation Committee.  Do you believe that it's possible that Serg. Pretorius was silenced because he knew too much from the information you gave him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: : We have had a very long five minutes.  Okay Mr Richardson, thank you.

MR VALLY: : I should may be we should take a break and have a few questions to ask after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: : We will resume at two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you.  No let's try again now.  Order. Thank you.   Mr Hanif.  Sorry just before you start.  We are clearly moving at a particular pace here after Mr Richardson, we have three police officers, two on recall and we think coming back at the end of those three witnesses, who should call it a day, and have Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela start tomorrow at half past eight, and before I ask Hanif, I had intended  welcoming my - our colleague Dumisa Ntsebeza, because it is special, I mean, although we have got so many things, he has been living under a very heavy cloud with the kind of allegations that were made against him and we obviously expected that Judge Goldstone would  vindicate him, but we needed to have that independent vindication and the Dumisa, where are you?  All right, when he comes, I will have to repeat myself.   Right, Hanif.

MR VALLY: : Thank you Archbishop.
 Mr Richardson, we were busy with the attack on your house on the 9th of November 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, we start at two o'clock, but because it's a special day for you, I wanted this hearing to share our joy at the vindication that you have been given, and the Commission been given by the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry, and we welcome you back, and I'm glad that cloud has been lifted.  I will clap you,  just a small clap.  Thank you.

MR VALLY: : Mr Richardson, were busy when your house was attacked on the 9th of November 1988, when the two ANC guerillas were killed as well as Serg. Pretorius.  What I asked you was, whether you aware that Serg. Pretorius was killed in you kitchen, because he needed to be silenced.  What is your response to that please?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No  translation)

MR VALLY: Why would you say that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's take this a bit further.  You earlier mentioned that you were present at a meeting between Mr Paul Erasmus and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  Can you give details of this meeting?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, can you tell us when this meeting was suppose to have taken place, and where?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Was it before you were arrested, after your house was attacked, or was it after?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, you have already given us evidence as to when your met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, when you were employed as a coach for the football club.  You indicated when that took place.  I believe it was late 1986.  Can you tell us when was this meeting suppose to have taken place, at least give us a year, if there were more than one meetings, please indicate that to us.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Where did the meetings take place?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Which house was this, in Orlando, or in Diepkloof?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: You've mentioned in one of this meetings that Mr Erasmus pointed you out as an informer to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  Did she confront you with this issue?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)