Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR SEMENYA: You don't know whether you had a relationship with Miss Falati? - now seriously as an adult man.

JERRY RICHARDSON: You see, Sister Falati - I don't even remember dreaming about her once and requesting from her.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, order.  Order please.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Mr Semenya, are you satisfied or do you still want me to carry on about Falati?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've answered the question.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Thank you Mr Commissioner.

MR SEMENYA: Again it appears in the same line
"My Xoliswa Falati and my daughter"
Are you referring to - let me ask it differently, who are you referring to when you say -
"Your daughter"?
I'm referring to Lena Richardson.

MR SEMENYA: According to Mr Moodley - Senior Superintendent Moodley - maybe let me just ...[indistinct]
"The body of Kuki Zwane was amongst injuries, with a bullet wound"
It doesn't seem to appear in the way you described her murder.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Mr Moodley in future, will be my co-accused - whatever he said, that's why he's attached his address there - maybe in the very same case or with regard to other matters.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to put it in any simpler terms as I don't follow what you're saying.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I think Mr Moodley - as time goes on, maybe the year 2016, he'll be my co-accused, he'll be accused number 3 and I'll be accused number 4.

MR SEMENYA: If he tells us that the body of Kuki Zwane was found with a bullet wound, would he be correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: Now, do you seriously know where the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala are hidden?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I know, I can take you there.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't follow what the speaker is saying.

MR SEMENYA: Why would you hit Senior Superintendent Moodley now?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Please don't decorate this - he has written H T Moodley, he hasn't written Superintendent.

MR SEMENYA: Why would you hit him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Because I can't get the place that I pointed out at an earlier stage - we can't get the bodies and I would start hitting him.

MR SEMENYA: Would you hit him at the instruction of Mrs Mandela?

JERRY RICHARDSON: You see now, I assault people - even in jail, I even do have a record of assaulting people in jail.  I no longer eat in jail and I'm growing thinner by the day.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying that when you assault outside, it's at the instruction of Mrs Mandela and when you do it inside, it is not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: She's not in jail but if she was in jail she probably would instruct me.

MR SEMENYA: You tell us that you are involved with a highjacking of a bakery with Katiza Cebekhulu.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I told you that we highjacked a bakery together with Katiza Cebekhulu.  When you go to Pretoria, I stole from a certain company - that's the way it is.

MR SEMENYA: No, I'm trying to understand.  Did you and Katiza highjack a bakery car?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: What year?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: Was it an instruction of Mrs Mandela?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: So, you were involved in criminal conduct on your own ...[intervention]

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Without having obtained the instructions of Mrs Mandela?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: What other acts of criminal activity did you commit which were not instructed by her?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I stole blankets from Makro, I wasn't instructed by Mrs Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, order.

MR SEMENYA: I have listened to your evidence carefully and on more than three occasions you were asked whether your conduct was politically inspired and you vehemently said no, you were just associated with soccer and no politics, is that right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That's true.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you apply for amnesty?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That's a question, I'm trying my luck.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, order please.  Please just settle - there is some honesty.

MR SEMENYA: So, would your luck be improved by for instance, stating that you were doing this on the instruction of Mrs Mandela, would that improve your luck?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

MR SEMENYA: I put it to you, that's why you are saying the things you're saying because you're trying to improve your luck.  What's your response?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I'm just checking my briefcase because I want to give you a book or a letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Order.  Mr Semenya, can I just find out how much more you have?

MR SEMENYA: I won't be long Chairperson, under 5 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not trying to limit you but I think that we are having a bit of a problem.

MR SEMENYA: I understand.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Here's the last one, this is the last one - I think you're looking for more information and I think this will help you.  That last one - I heard you telling the Commissioner that this is the message that came from Leeuwkop, it was 10 past 2 when you uttered those words and I told my attorney that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure that you have - please just follow your line of questioning and perhaps don't get distracted.

MR SEMENYA: Was your answer that mentioning Mrs Mandela would improve your luck? - as the person who would have given instructions.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Could you please return those photos that I gave to you.  Can you see the people who are in those photos, Ronnie Skekune and Shoes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richardson, I've spoken to you previously - if a question is posed and the question is straightforward, we would request you to please answer that question.  You personally said that you had no political motive or object to commit the crimes.   Now the question is very straightforward, we want to know - you said you applied for amnesty and you were trying your luck, now the question is: "Did you think that implicating Mrs Mandela in all these deeds would also improve your standing with the Truth Commission"?
 Could you please just give us a straightforward answer - yes or no, whether she instructed you to commit these crimes or she didn't - please do not waste time.  We will have a look at those photos, thank you.  You are playing now, could you please stop making a circus of the whole thing.
 I'm very, very patient - we've been given work to do and I urge you to answer the questions posed to you.  This is not a circus but some have already referred to it as a circus and those people will later say that it is a real circus when they see you acting in the manner that you do.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I beg your forgiveness Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to put it again so that - try to answer the question.

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: Well, I just want to finally put it to you that your suggestion that all of these activities were done at the instruction of Mrs Mandela, it's - as you put it, trying your luck, what's your response?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I deny that, there's absolutely no truth in that statement.

MR SEMENYA: According to the information of Mamasela, the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala were incinerated.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Excuse me?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat?

MR SEMENYA: Could it be true?

DR BORAINE: I'm sorry to interrupt councillor, but could you tell us the source of that information - the quotation from Mamasela, we haven't it in front of us, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: No, this is the information from Mr Mamasela.

DR BORAINE: I'm just wondering from which source, is it written, is it in radio, television or ...[intervention]

MR SEMENYA: No, it's in a consultation with me Deputy Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Mr Semenya, did you take a statement from Mr Mamasela when he was in consultation with you and if so, would it be possible for the Commission to get hold of that?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson no, unfortunately I have hand written notes, I did not take a statement from him.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.