Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we are ready to begin, but my learned friend, Adv Bizos has indicated that he has a request to make to the Committee about some videos.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I tendered to ask you to view a video of Mr Hartzenberg being interviewed by Mr Lester Venter on the SABC.  I am told that the equipment is not here. Arrangements are being made to try and get some equipment here. I don't want to take up time. I will proceed, with your leave, with my examination of Mr Derby-Lewis.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont):  Mr Derby-Lewis, I read to you a portion of Hansard in which Mr Koos Botha was repudiated for contending that the speech at Voortrekker Hoogte and the resolution of or the adoption of a programme of action in Kimberley was said not to be concerned with violence.  What I want to do, Mr Chairman, for the sake of completeness, is to hand in a fuller section of Hansard, commencing on page 12738 and finishing at 12838.  We, having regard to our limited resources, we have made one copy for the Commission and one copy for counsel for the applicants. I do not intend referring to it at this stage, but it may be necessary during the course of argument to refer to portions of what was said, in order to explain what the debate was about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: The relevant passage that I read out is before you, each one of you have a copy in R4, I beg your pardon, in R3, in section F, together with the newspaper cuttings that summarise the debate from pages F1 to 5; clearly indicated to the world at large that the CP was against the use of violence. Having explained that, Mr Chairman, I would like to proceed with the examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you please turn  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, can I request that I be given an opportunity to go through this document before Mr Bizos starts referring to it because I am not familiar with it?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the pages from Hansard?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The pages from Hansard, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, are you going to be questioning him on the contents of this document?

GEORGE BIZOS: Not on any portion.  What I wanted to put to Mr Derby-Lewis, I put on Friday afternoon, Mr Chairman. If - I am sure that Mr Derby-Lewis has time during the adjournments and after court, if - and he is represented by counsel, I have made the document available they will, no doubt, have an opportunity to re-examine the witness and if there is anything that they want to draw attention to, which either explains or deals for any matter, the matter can be clarified then. We are anxious not to take up court time for Mr Lewis to peruse documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lewis, if you have any difficulty as a result of questions being put to you, which taxes your memory about these documents, we will then consider it at that stage.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I still have a problem, because Mr Bizos may ask me questions which are referred to in other speeches by my colleagues of which I am not aware and I don't know whether  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: He will put that to you, you can reserve your answer.  But let's proceed with the rest of the evidence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, thank you, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.  Will you please look at R3, page, section F, page 1.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.  Yes, Mr Chairman, I have got it.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is a newspaper report in The Citizen. Did you and your wife regularly read The Citizen, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And it would appear that your wife was a regular contributor to The Citizen, not as regular as Die Patriot, but she was a contributor to this ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: If Mr Bizos is referring, Mr Chairman, to the occasional letter which my wife used to submit to the editor, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And please try and remember whether this report came to your notice, which is a summary of the debate in Parliament.
"Hillview bomber, Mr Koos Botha, should stop blaming the Conservative Party and its leaders for his actions, and he would then find that they had sympathy for him, Mr Daan du Plessis, CP Roodeplaat said yesterday.
		Speaking in debate on the further Indemnity Bill he said Mr Botha had blamed a speech by CP leader, Dr Andries Treurnicht in which he said the third war of freedom had begun for inciting him to violence.  Naturally, the third war of freedom has begun, said Mr Du Plessis, but the fact that I say this here today, does not oblige you to go out tomorrow and plant bombs.  
		There had been 30 000 people at the Voortrekkerhoogte meeting where Dr Treurnicht made the statement. How many of those people went and planted bombs?  Dr Treurnicht had said that anyone who planted bombs did so at his own risk, knowing that he was contravening the laws of the land, and that he would have to bear the blame and the punishment. If Mr Botha had indeed blown up Hillview School, the question arose whether he had not known the consequences.  Mr Botha had naturally been alone when he was finally brought to court.  At that stage he had already kicked his colleagues in the face and cut himself off from them."
Did this report come to your notice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, in all probability.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now before you decided to make yourself guilty of murder, did you go to your leader and say, ask specifically, leader, what is our party's policy in relation to killing people or doing damage to property or using violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I testified previously that I had already discussed the moral basis of killing in the ongoing struggle against the anti-Christ and I have testified as to what my leader said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But will you leave anti-Christ out for a moment and can we have a direct answer to the question.  When you heard or read of this, did you go to your leader and ask him what is our policy in relation to acts of violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you were discussing with your friend, Mr Walus, the plans in order to murder Chris Hani, did you say to him that there are public statements which clearly indicate that the Conservative Party is against violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because that was not so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, are you saying that Mr Prinsloo, who made these statements, was lying to the public of South Africa?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Mr Prinsloo didn't make those statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, Du Plessis, I beg your pardon.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Du Plessis made the statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The second point I wish to make, Mr Chairman, is that if you have a look at the clipping, you will see at the bottom there, the last paragraph in that clipping, there is a quote
"At that stage he had already kicked his colleagues in the face."
I am not sure to which, to whom this is attributed, the report doesn't say that.  
	Then thirdly, Mr Chairman, I want to say here that the report says Dr Treurnicht had said that-
"Anyone who planted bombs did so at his own risk, knowing that he was contravening the laws...."
as Mr Bizos correctly read out, 
"....the laws of the land, and that he would have to bear the blame and punishment".
This was done by all freedom fighters, they all contravened the law in terms of the war which is being waged.  Mr Chairman, and they all committed crimes.  So how can I be ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you mindanwering my question my question, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have answered the question, Mr Chairman.