Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I then take my point to it's ultimate conclusion.  I'm leaving aside the question of the list because there are arguments both and for.  Now you have said that if we take the bulk of, shall I say the poison or sting out of allegations against her, it will leave her with mere knowledge that, oh, these people were busy planning to do this and she should have known about, let's assume she knew about it, didn't go the police and the like, if we do find that she did know, then obviously it would mean that the Applicants did not tell the truth about it to the extent that they wanted to tell us that Mrs Derby-Lewis knew nothing, they would have lied to us.
	Now, would such a non-disclosure be a material one.  The failure to disclose knowledge on the part of somebody who did no more than just merely knew about it.

GEORGE BIZOS: The way I have always understood the Law that mere knowledge is not enough except in the case of treason that you owe a duty to report and it wasn't treason.  But what I am, with respect, submitting is this, that one cannot approach this case in relation to the conduct of the two Applicants and Mrs Derby-Lewis without having regard to what the evidence and their own admissions are and what the probabilities are in relation to the list.
	The list of nine was handed to, she is the one that asked, she is the one, she admits that she is the one who asked for these places to be reconnoitred and she in her own word says, "I couldn't say on the telephone what to Mr Kemp what they were, what it was intended for, he is a politically astute person and he didn't require any explanations."  
	Now, one cannot divorce that without taking into account that her husband with whom she has complete political and ideological identity and who also set herself up as one of the saviours of the country.  One cannot take or ignore that evidence because that is an executive act.  What she did with Kemp was not to give a list for the purposes of writing a journalistic article.  
	She did it in furtherance of the conspiracy that we knew was being hatched from the end of '92 by the First and Second Applicants.  It isn't something that is unconnected and not germane to their discussions.  On her own admissions on the probabilities on the high degree of improbability found to exist by the Judge President, the admissions that we have here, the improbabilities that came out on her questioning in cross examination by members of the Committee.
	So that although it is a theoretical possibility, it just doesn't fit with the facts as a whole in our respectful submission.  The facts are that she was in the thick of it.

MR WILSON: I'm not sure just how much this may effect it, but she is unlikely to have given that list of nineteen to Mr Hartzenberg is she.  Where it contained the names of journalists, the names of Judge Goldstone whom she wanted to write an article about because of the Group Areas Act.  It was not something that she would have wanted Mr Hartzenberg to raise in Parliament.

GEORGE BIZOS: There is a high degree of probability and we would concede that.  But it was the hard-core that she really wanted to and that she asked, she asked on her own admission that a description of the houses of the ANC and SACP people on the list.  Now, and this is what Kemp gave her, so she wasn't an idle, passive bystander, she was by the looks of things, having regard to the importance of the list and the reconnoitring, she was equally involved with the other two.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bizos, what do you make of the other reason which was given during the criminal trial, that the list was acquired allegedly for writing a book with Ms Ada, I think it's Ada Parker?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well, the "voluminous evidence" that was put before the Committee in tracts in the Patriot, and some of the publications of Ms Ada Parker whoever she may be, shows that she was a bird of a feather of Mrs Derby-Lewis in her political views which make McCarthy's look quite a liberal philosophy but be that as it may, what we would submit is that it was not pursued here and we make this point in the written heads so that she hasn't been forthcoming or consistent as to what the purposes of the list really was.
	There is no clear evidence as to whether, what Mr Hartzenberg received.  If he received anything at all, if he received anything at all but there's certainly no clear evidence as to which of the lists he received.

ADV POTGIETER: Also even the list of nine Mr Bizos, unless I'm missing something, even that list, the usefulness of that to Mr Hartzenberg isn't really available for, unless there's something that we've missed in the testimony.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, this is why I submit that if in fact anything was given to Mr Hartzenberg, on the assumption that she was a member of the conspiracy, she had to find a reason for the apparently conspiratorial meeting at the Rotunda, at the Johannesburg Station and having Mr Clark there adds to the probability and his evidence that it was done surreptitiously even for his eyes.
	So, we submit that a smoke screen has been created by Mrs Derby-Lewis about a book, about journalistic purposes, about Hartzenberg, the real purpose of the 
list is what is obvious and what she herself said in her statement, what Mr Derby-Lewis said in his statement and that it was a hit list.  Subject to any other questions at this stage I will be coming back for the latter part of the argument and the admissibility of the statements, my learned friend Mr Malindi will take over Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson and members of the Committee.  Chairperson, I will start at paragraph 6.5 where we make the following submission.  The Applicants have not disclosed various co-conspirators to the plot.  They have not disclosed the names of other people in the CP who discussed and decided with them that violence had become an option for the CP.
	Chairperson, in the evidence of Mr Derby-Lewis himself, he states that many discussions were held by people on the right concerning actions to stop the Nationalist political cause and he further states that actions were being planned and put into operation and that evidence is to be found in FR Page 109.
	Chairperson, the Applicants are expected to disclose all the people who were party to these discussions which we shall presume lead to their final decision that Chris Hani should be assassinated.  That actions were being planned and put into operation is also stated in bundle A and their references in paragraph 6.5.1.  And Chairperson this statement agrees to a large extent with what Mr Visser and Mr Edwin Clark told the Court when they gave evidence, especially what Mr Clark said about the fraternity that met at Mr Derby-Lewis' house and other places and he refused to associate Mr Derby-Lewis directly with that fraternity.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Malindi sorry, but if those actions and plans had nothing to do with the killing of Mr Hani.  If those actions and plans were actions to go hold protest rallies throughout South Africa, in Cape Town, in Pietersburg, they would not be connected with the killing of Mr Hani and they would not be a non disclosure, unless you can connect, you can make that connection.