Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR LAX: And later on you got your instructions to go and collect her from CR Swart, you said.  This is the first time now you're conceding that you got your instructions at Winkelspruit, because up until now you've given us the impression that you never went to Winkelspruit, except on the day, that you were sleeping at CR Swart Square and that you'd been in and out of the offices there.  That was the impression you created.  Now is the first time you're conceding that that is different.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, maybe we did not understand one another the way I wanted to put it, maybe that is the point where we differ.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Radebe?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Radebe, I'd like you just to clarify one or two points for me.  On the first day that you met Ms Kubheka, if I have it correctly you said on that day you allowed Mr Mbane to drive the vehicle because you had had too much to drink, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I said, Chairperson, I and Mbane were drunk and Dube was the one who was driving.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Mr Dube have a licence?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: He did not have a driver's licence.

ADV BOSMAN: From where to where did he drive?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: He drove from KwaMashu to Durban station.

ADV BOSMAN: But wasn't that very dangerous, to allow him to drive in the congested traffic as you put it?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was dangerous, Chairperson, but because we were drunk you would not be afraid of anything, but I considered it was dangerous.  That is why we were afraid that we should go to Winkelspruit, because white members would observe that we were drunk, that's why we slept at the station so that I will be sober again and drive back to Winkelspruit.

ADV BOSMAN: So was it fairly general for you to have drinks during the time that you were here in Durban?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, it will depend on the situation.

ADV BOSMAN: And on the night that went to Winkelspruit the night of the incident, had you had drinks?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Then, was it sort of general routine that instructions to Mr Mbane and Mr Dube would be given through you?  Would their instructions always come through you, or would someone like say Mr Ras or Mr Botha give instructions directly to Mr Mbane?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: He was supposed to do that, he was supposed to relay the instructions to the two people through me, but at times he would give them instructions directly.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you referring to Mr Ras when you say "he"?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Ras was giving me instructions directly, but even white members to places where we went, they were supposed to give me instructions first, then I would relay the instructions to the askaris, because we would have a dispute if they give askaris instructions directly without relaying them to me first.

ADV BOSMAN: If Mr Mbane says that he was instructed to go to Ms Kubheka's house after she had been killed, are you surprised to hear that?  Because you said you never gave such an instruction.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not be surprised, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: So it's possible that he had been given such an instruction?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is possible, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you return to Vlakplaas, how soon after the incident?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, but we returned back.  I don't remember when.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it a matter of days or weeks or hours?  Can you give any sort of general indication, without being too specific?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If we were to go to a particular place we would stay there for there weeks and then on the fourth day we'd go back, and then if some of us were involved in a particular operation, others would go after three weeks, then we will stay behind.

ADV BOSMAN: What I'm actually getting at is, how did it come that you returned?  Who told you that it was now time for you to return to Vlakplaas?  Was it Mr Ras, or did Mr de Kock let you know you must now come back to Vlakplaas?  Why did you go back?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether it's Joe Coetzer or McCarter who instructed us that we should go back to Vlakplaas.

ADV BOSMAN: Now what was the situation in regard to this cell at the time?  Was the cell by now more-or-less dysfunctional, had it been destroyed?  When you went back.

MR LAX: Sorry, I was saying you guys are talking and we can pick it up on ... we can pick up you talking, the two of you, sorry.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: The cell was destroyed when we returned that.

ADV BOSMAN: Who told you that, how did you know that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Joe Coetzer or Frank McCarter, one of them told us that.

ADV BOSMAN: And had your job now been done?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just very briefly Mr Radebe, during this operation, the one involving Ms Kubheka, were any of you, that is yourself, Dube or Mbane, armed with AK47s?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I remember Mbane or Dube had Makarov pistols, but I don't remember well about the AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there ever any instruction that any AK47 be handed over to anybody at all?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson, to create a sign of confidence, that we are comrades and then assert our story, so the overseas made firearms were always present.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that AK47s were handed over to either Ms Kubheka or any other member of the cell?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: To be shown.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: So that she would believe that we're from exile and then again we're members of PAC or ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Was an AK47 shown?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, but I remember someone giving me one AK47 and one Makarov pistol, to hide them in my car.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo, any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Members of the Panel?

MR HUGO: No, except Mr Chairman, from a procedural point of view I was just wondering, as you know he suffers from this medical problem and I was going to ask you to allow him to go back to Pretoria after his evidence, but I'm not sure as to whether the victims' legal representatives intend introducing this dress formally as an exhibit.  If that were to be the case, surely it should be done now so that if he wants to comment on it, then it should be done at this point in time.  I don't want to be prescriptive, I was just wondering whether ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I think whether or not the victims - I think we would like as a Panel to see the dress, so I think whether or not Mr Wills intends to do it or not, it's up to him, but we can show it to the witness now.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, this exhibit has never been in the custody of the family of the deceased, it's always been an exhibit held by the TRC and it was anticipated that the TRC representative would introduce it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: I have no objection to it being introduced now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think perhaps we should have it brought now Mr Hugo and then after your client has testified, he'll be given permission to go back to Pretoria, but on the proviso that if his presence is required, he'd be on standby to come back on short notice.

MR HUGO: Yes, certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: But before we show the dress, any other questions arising out of questions put by Members of the Panel?   Mr Visser?