Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MR TLOUBATLA: On paragraph 6, there is a paragraph numbered 3 there, you say that
"It was the policy of the organisation to avoid retaliation at all costs"
When you say there was a policy to avoid retaliation, were there any specific instructions to avoid retaliation and from whom did such orders come from, that you must not retaliate?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I remember the late comrade Muntu Miyeza addressed us and he told us not to try and attack the comrades in the UDF, he said we must wait for the leadership to give an instruction so that we can act thereafter but the whole leadership of AZAPO and AZAZIM discouraged us from retaliating.
	You will understand that many comrades who died in Soweto were members of the BCM.  It was because we didn't retaliate, we always waited for the leadership to hold meetings and come back to report.  It has been the  policy of the organisation not to act without instructions from the leadership.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that your turning point was after the death of comrade Sipho Komezulu in Zola
"This funeral became our turning point, for me and the others who always advocated for retaliation and attack as the best form of defence"
Now can you briefly just tell us what happened?  How did comrade Sipho Komezulu die or meet his death and then what happened at his funeral?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Many things were committed by members of the UDF and we just ignored them.  Sipho Komezulu was on his way to work and he was kidnapped.  He was working for a trade union in Nuhaza.  He was kidnapped in the morning and it was only after a few days that he was discovered.  He was brutally murdered and his corpse was covered with stones.
	I say it's a turning point because it was the first comrade to be brutally killed.  While organising for his funeral in Zola, I was out with, it was after the night vigil on the day of the funeral, when we came back comrade Komezulu's coffin was burnt, it was thrown in the street, there were no mourners and the fence was down and this affected me a lot.
	I did not understand how it came about that a person be killed and to be killed the second time in the coffin on the day of the funeral.  We went to the graveyard Avelon.  We left with this partly burnt coffin to bury him.  We came back after the ceremony and we walked through Tladi Molesani.  The comrades from the UDF attacked us because we were now going back home and there was no convoy anymore, they attacked us. 
	The car that was severely attacked was one that was transporting the late Martin Mohau.  He had been released a few months before the funeral and he was also brutally killed on the same day of the funeral.  We lost Martin Mohau.  He'd just been released a few months from Robben Island.
	Myself, I realised that the position of the organisation not to retaliate would not be of any assistance to me because I've witnessed people dying brutally and we've been waiting for the leadership to tell us what steps to take.  On the other hand the UDF was continuing with the series of attacks, now this was my turning point.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned there that you were attack by SOSCO members.  These people, how did you know that they were SOSCO members?  Were you able to identify them?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: In those days you'd identify a person and his organisation by the type of songs they sang.  You'd be in a position to tell that these are UDF or these are AZAPO because songs that are normally sung are those belittling the other organisation.
	There were UDF T-shirts, they were RMC, Release Mandela Campaign T-shirts, SOSCO T-shirts, AZASO and SOSCO T-shirts, those were associates of UDF.  So we identified by those T-shirts and we identified by the songs.  We also identified them by their locality.  If I was in Kladi I would know that this is a stronghold of UDF.

MR TLOUBATLA: You were burying one of your comrades, that is Sam Komezulu and then you are coming back from the funeral and then another members is attacked, Martin Mohau is attacked and killed but why did you not, or did anybody approach the police regarding these matters?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not know anything about the police.  I don't know whether anyone reported this to the police but there were reporters always because you'd even see incidents in the newspapers.  I don't know how the police got hold of the information, whether it was the parents who reported or the organisation, I do not really know.

MR TLOUBATLA: Now coming to the specific act for which you are applying for amnesty ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Might I just come in here with a question to clarify?

MR TLOUBATLA: Certainly.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, you spoke about the meetings that were held between the two leadership, were these meetings held after your comrade - if I can just get his name, was killed or was it soon after that or before that time?  Do you remember?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was before the killing.  The conflict was still in the Eastern Cape, it was not yet in the Transvaal.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, now coming to this incident for which you are applying for amnesty, do you remember the date on which the four members, the four young men were killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not remember the date but I think it was in 1986 in August.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you at that time know the names of the people that were killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not know them.  I only knew them when I got hold of this document.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.  Can you in detail now tell us how you got into the whole incident, where it started, what you did and so on?  Just start from the time when you started being involved in this attack.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Comrade Jefferson Lingani stayed in Orlando West and we got a report that his house was attacked and burnt with petrol bombs.  He was in Orlando West, he came down to Orlando East where we had our camps and he got hold of a few comrades and they went back to clean the remains of the burnt house.
	There was also an anticipation of a further attack.  Now they armed ...[intervention]

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, just slow down, don't be so fast.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Okay.

MR TLOUBATLA: You say who came to report to you about Mr Lingani's house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He personally came to Orlando East the following morning to report that his house had been burnt.  He came to Orlando East because he knew there were camps and he would be assisted and he told the comrades and they went to clean the remains.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you personally go and - I mean, did you go to his house to go and clean that house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not got.  I stayed behind because I was fixing a car, the clutch plate was not functional.

MR TLOUBATLA: And do you know which people went to go and assist in the cleaning of the house of Mr Lingani?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I know some of them, Motlana, Spieu, Kanu and Kadelolelanga, the brother to Jeff.  Those were the members.  I do not know who else was with them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.  So you remained behind, you were fixing your car and what happened next?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: At about half past two to 3 o'clock if I remember very well, Nkolisi, Speedo and Kabelo came to me.  They told me that they had been to Jeff's place and now they were back to come and wash but they caught up with some members, with some culprits and they were at the DOCC.
	They told me that those people were kept at the DOCC, so I should rush to see them, then we all left and we found them at Orlando at the DOCC building.  We took them and put them into the car.  We had two cars, it was a Mazda and my car, a Chevrolet and we drove with them to Orlando West to Jefferson Lingani's house.
	They were told to get inside the house.  I remember that I remained behind because the car was dirty, so I had to clean off the oil.  Now the comrades took them into the house to ask them questions.