Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.  We want to start the proceedings.  For the record, it's Wednesday the 10th of May 2000, it is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at Middelburg.  The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record.  We just wish to indicate that the proceedings are starting late today, due to a number of logistical and other difficulties that have largely been occasioned by the fact that all of the applicants in all of the applications that are on our roll for today, are in custody in different centres and they had to be transported from these centres to Middelburg, where we are sitting, which is the most central point for the matters that are on the roll for this particular session in Middelburg.
	The situation has been exacerbated by the fact that at some of the centres, Correctional Services has not had its normal staff component, resulting in pressure on the diminished resources that were available, and that affected us and delayed the proceedings here because some of the applicants had to be transported over considerable distances to the venue.  We apologise for the delay in being able to start.  We do intend to, if it's at all possible, finalise the matters that are on the roll for today and if needs be, for that purpose we will consider continuing the session till beyond the normal sitting hours, in order to be able to do so.
	The matters that are to be heard now are the applications of D L Phasha, amnesty reference AM1319/96, L L Phasha, reference AM1318/96 and M M Phasha, reference AM1221/96.  
	I'm going to allow the legal representatives to put themselves on record.  I'll start with Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.  Tony Richard, Johannesburg.  I am appearing for the Phashas, the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Richard.
Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  I'm Frank Mokoena from Nelspruit, I'm representing the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mokoena.  And then the Leader of Evidence.

MS MTANGA: I'm Lula Mtanga, Chairperson.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.  Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson.  I start by calling Michael Morudi Phasha, who is happy to be sworn.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Richard.  Mr Phasha, are your full names Michael Morudi Phasha?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand to take the oath.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Phasha, where were you born?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I was born at Driekop, in the Northern Province.

MR RICHARD: And what is the nearest major centre to Driekop?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The smallest town is Burgersfort and the bigger on is Pietersburg.

MR RICHARD: Now is that where you were educated, reared and grew up, until your arrest in 1993?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now what education did you receive?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I reached standard 10, but I did not finish standard 10.

MR RICHARD: Now am I correct in making the statement that the area is a rural area?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Am I also correct in saying that in this area the traditional structures of chiefs, their councillors, senior chiefs, junior chiefs, still exists and has existed throughout your life?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: May you please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: My question is, is it not correct that throughout your life, in the area where you have lived and grown up and led your life, the traditional structures of chiefs in villages, sub-chiefs and so on, still exist?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, they still exist.

MR RICHARD: Now before we go into the essence of the matter, I've decided to use certain particular words and I'm going to ask the witness a number of questions.
	What is a moloi?  M-o-l-o-i.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: It's somebody who kills people, using supernatural powers.

MR RICHARD: And what else do moloi's do?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Amongst other things that he does is to abduct people.  Those are the people that we know that they have died, but he knows that they did not die.  That is his secret and he will use those people the way he wants to use them.

MR RICHARD: And for what purposes would he use those people?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: According to my little knowledge, amongst the purposes that he used them for include his personal things, or he together with his people who are doing the same thing that he's doing, that is other witches.

MR RICHARD: I go to the next term, and forgive my pronunciation.  The Sotho is ngaka, what is a ngaka?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He's the person who helps other people, people who believe in black traditions, by helping them and protecting them against the witches.  So his main duty is to protect them and also to expose some of the deeds of the witches.

MR RICHARD: Do ngakas also treat you when you're ill?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: So a ngaka is more than just a traditional healer, he's also a person who points out molois.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now how would a ngaka go about pointing out a moloi?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He uses different methods, it will depend on that particular traditional doctor, that is his training.  There are those who will be able to point the witch by using a mirror, and others, many others may use divine bones and they will read from the divine bones what is happening.

MR RICHARD: Now I give a hypothetical proposition, if I were a resident of a village such as the one that you come from, and had reason to suspect the work of a moloi, what would be the procedure for me to do?  How would I go about dealing with the problem?  Could I go to the chief, could I go to the ngaka, how would I process my complaint or question?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: If that family is under the authority of a particular chief, they will go to that chief and he will give them advice as to what they should do, but other families they will go directly to the traditional doctor.  That would depend on the knowledge that they have about traditional doctors.

MR RICHARD: Now if the traditional doctors, or as we're calling them, ngaka, believe that witchcraft, a moloi, is involved, what role would the chief perform?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question, Mr Tony Richards.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  If the traditional doctor, ngaka, comes to the conclusion that there's the work of a moloi on hand, what would happen?  Who would be spoken to next, what procedures would be established, or followed?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The first thing that I know that the traditional doctor will do, will be to attend to the problem that you tell him about.  So it will also depend on you what type of help need from him.

MR RICHARD: What function would the chief fulfil?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: What the chief does is to give directives and advices which will enable you to get help.  He may send you to a traditional doctor, the one that he believes that would be able to help, but his main task is not to heal like a traditional doctor, it's just to advise people and give them directives, as the leader in that particular village.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now would you please tell the Committee and the Chairperson what are your beliefs regarding the powers of ngakas and molois.