Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR LAX: Well, that's a different issue, but you're saying they were committed by white people.  You didn't say they were sent by white people.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They are collaborators.

MR SIBANYONI: When you refer to whites, Mr Dolo, are you doing so without drawing any distinction between the white population and the white government which we all know was in place at the time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Come to what?

MR SIBANYONI: Do you draw any distinction there?  When you talk about whites on the one hand.  Is there any difference between the white government which we all know existed at the time, between the whites you are talking about?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We find it as PAC members that there was no difference between whites and the white government.  It was there because of those whites.  They were the one who were voting, so they were part and parcel of that government.  They benefited a lot from it.

MR SIBANYONI: You didn't draw any distinction between the two?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I didn't draw any distinction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, through you Mr Chairperson, you said when you left Zimbabwe coming into the country, you received orders from Sibelo Palma to say, engage the Settlers.  What did you understand by the word "engage".  What did it entail?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That I would be the Commander. The fleet Commander on the ground and I would be physically be involved in attacks of whites.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

MR LAX: When exactly did you come back from Zimbabwe?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: '92.

MR LAX: And Sibelo Palma gave you this order in 1992?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No.

MR LAX: When?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: '91.  I think so.

MR LAX: In 1991?  But you see, up until 1993 there was still a very clear distinction between attacking whites generally and attacking people connected to the Security Forces, farmers and people connected, or in some way who were black collaborators with the State.  There was a very clear distinction right up until 1993 on that issue.  It was only when the year of the Storm was declared in 1993 that that distinction ceased to exist.  So I want you to explain how come you could have got such an order in 1991.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Firstly I take it that I was not the only one who was given such an order, to come inside the country and engage the Settlers.  And it was to their decision, the High Command of when to unleash such attacks against the Settlers.  Then they decided that they are going maybe to, they started after 1993 that started 1992 if you recall a lot of some operation of which APLA was involved in it.

MR LAX: You see the point at which the High Command acknowledged that they ceased to differentiate was when         Operation Storm started, and that was in 1993.  That was the point at which the High Command decided, and Sibelo Palma in particular, decided that we now have to make whites understand that if they won't change they are going to suffer like our people are suffering.  There will be no safety.  They will not be able to sit in the quiet white suburbs and not suffer.  That was the thrust of that whole Operation Storm.  Do you conceive that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm sure if you are going to give maybe an order, such as that one that was given by Sibelo Palma in 1993 of the Great Storm that had been ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Great Storm.  You have to know that as a Commander maybe you have deployed to people inside the country as like myself, the question of myself.  I don't know if you get me?

MR LAX: You see, Mr Dolo APLA was deploying people from way before 1990.  They were deploying people continuously for ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: For specific operations.

MR LAX: Not only for specific operations, in preparation for other operations that might come.  When you create an army you don't just deploy it on an ad hoc basis.  You build up your troops on the ground, you build up your cadres on the ground, you build up your lines of communication.  The situation is not static.  It changes.  We understand that, we've all studied history.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So, do you have a question?

MR LAX: Yes, I'm saying to you, you weren't simply deployed for Operation Storm two years prior to it. The material conditions on the ground determined when Operation Storm should happen.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The Great Storm never specifies that it was only then that we have to attack so-called civilians, so-called ...(inaudible) that were being attacked by APLA.  So, we don't have portray a line between these things that by attacked took place in 1992, as if it was contrary to what APLA's decision or that of the High Command of attacking whites.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think we will run around assessments of what was understanding of the orders given to Mr Dolo.  How do we interpret them?  How he interpreted them, and how this Committee interpreted the submissions of APLA, and I don't think we would be in a position to get any common ground on that aspect, on the understanding or interpretation of this.

MR LAX: I agree, let us press on.  I was just trying to understand where your client was coming from, and the broader context within which these things happened.  I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree for the moment.  These things will become clearer as we go on anyway.  You know we've sat through three weeks of hearings, so we have a much broader picture of other APLA commanders' outlooks and of their perceptions as well, not just your, this particular client.  But let's move on, I agree.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  "Because it was" - paragraph 10, Mr Chairman,
"Because it was in the morning, it was difficult to see the occupants of the car at a distance.  I ordered Kleintjie to stand at a certain point and warn us of the occupants".
Can you tell us how Kleintjie was going to give the signal?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was wearing a hat on his head.  If he see a car which, of which its occupants were white, he is to raise it up and make it a sign out of it.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you mind, Mr Dolo, to repeat that, I did not follow you on that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I say Kleintjie was having a hat on his head.  Then if he see a car whose occupants were white he was, I ordered him to raise the hat as a sign.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "A white", same paragraph, Mr Chairman, "a white bakkie came with white occupants and Kleintjie gave a signal and", sorry can I repeat that Mr Chairman, my mike was off?
"A white bakkie came with the white occupants and Kleintjie gave a signal and I ordered the Comrades to attack it, and it lost control."
Whilst you were there, can you tell the Committee who was the first to shoot when you ordered that the car must be attacked?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As a Commander I gave orders that we had to attack the car which was approaching us.  At that stage I was armed with a rifle and the other Comrades were armed with pistols and a revolver.  We all attacked it.  To be precisely speaking I think all on this case if Kleintjie was in the position to see us, he would be of help, but I also took part in attacking that car.  To be specific in who started the attack I don't, I don't was to misinterpret myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: (cont)
"The occupants came out of the car and ran away.  They hiked a taxi and I shot the taxi and it fell on the bridge.  When we arrived at the bridge we find the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead".
Can you take the Committee through that?  When you saw them running and taking and hiking the taxi, can you take the Committee step by step as what actually took place?