Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR STANDER: Later that day when the people were taken to the different police stations, did you participate in that at all?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR STANDER: Did you see any of this group of people there that day?

MR TSOAMETSI: I do not remember you see, because they were still young at that time. They might have shifted from their appearances when they were still young.

MR STANDER: I'm afraid I do not understand you. Can not you even remember that this group of 19 people were interrogated there that day?

MR TSOAMETSI: I'm saying Mr Chairman, even if they were interrogated I would not give evidence to that effect, I was not part.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not activated.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't know but isn't he trying to convey: "They were young at the time and I didn't recognise their faces now, they have changed", something to that effect.  I don't know whether that's what he's trying to convey.

MR STANDER: I hear what you are saying and I am grateful, possibly I can ask him if that's true.
    Can you remember, of the group of 19 who were interrogated on the sixth of March 1986 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure of that date?

MR STANDER: I am sorry, it's the sixth of April, thank you very much.

MR TSOAMETSI: What is your question, Sir?

MR STANDER: Can you remember that a group of 19 people were interrogated on the sixth of April 1986?

MR TSOAMETSI: I saw them, they were at the office.

MR STANDER: How many times did you see them there on that day?

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, it is difficult because I was in and out of the building until late when we knock off.

MR STANDER: What time did you go off duty on that day?

MR TSOAMETSI: The usual knock off time was 4 o'clock.

MR STANDER: I hear what you are saying, but what time did you knock off?

MR TSOAMETSI: I do not remember. I only know that we used to knock off at four o'clock with the white person Crouse whom I was working with.

MR STANDER: Did you also sometimes interpret for the white security police officers?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Did you also interpret for Mr Terreblanche at times?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, only Crouse and Naude.

MR STANDER: Never for Terreblanche?

MR TSOAMETSI: Not at all.

MR STANDER: Is it possible that you can recall each and every person for whom you interpreted after a period of approximately 13 years?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, Sir, those white people had their own black workers, I would not leave my white person and go to them.

MR STANDER: Why I'm putting this question to you is that I have been instructed that on that specific day you acted as interpreter for Mr Terreblanche when Mr Oupa Makubalo was assaulted among others with a cricket bat  ...[intervention]

MR TSOAMETSI: That is not true, no.

MR STANDER: Which procedure did you follow in the interrogation?  Let us take the situation of a person who is brought in for interrogation and this person does not co-operate, what did you do then?

MR TSOAMETSI: Would detain him.

MR STANDER: If it was important information that you knew him to have and he still did not want to give it to you?

MR TSOAMETSI: We would put such a person in the cells.

MR STANDER: Was the information that you had to obtain not more important?  Let us accept that it was information that was urgent for action that you had to take in future, then surely it would be of no use to put such a person in the cells.

MR TSOAMETSI: If the person refuses to speak we take such a person to the cells.

MR STANDER: If it is possible that this information was absolutely imperative, then surely it would be no use to put such a person in the cells.  Which method would you follow then?

MR TSOAMETSI: There would be no way Sir, if he is not co-operative we would tell the officer that we still having a problem with this person, we're taking him to the cells then we take such a person to the cells.

MR STANDER: Any other method that was used, apart from putting him in the cells?  Is there any other method that you employed?

MR TSOAMETSI: When a person refuses to speak, we'll take him to the cells so that the next day when we fetch him he would come sober minded and he would co-operate. There was no other way. There was no way of hurting this person or assaulting him or torturing him, we just took them to cells.

MR STANDER: Let us take it further, let us say for one moment that the person's taken to the cells and he comes back and he still does not co-operate, what would you do then?

MR TSOAMETSI: We explain to this person: "Look here, you will stay here in this house until you co-operate we're not going to release you".

MR STANDER: Are these the only methods that you used?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes.

MR STANDER: And the security police, did they in no other way than in this method the person was locked up until he co-operated?

MR TSOAMETSI: We locked him up, Sir.

MR STANDER: At any stage, was physical violence used?

MR TSOAMETSI: Not in my presence.

MR STANDER: But by other members of the security police?

MR TSOAMETSI: I told you Sir, I said not in my presence.

MR STANDER: Yes, but I'm asking you, did you know that other security police officers made use of violence to interrogate their people?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, not here in Bloemfontein. I was reading in the newspapers about such cases relating to security members what they did to people, killed people and we we only read these now lately because of the TRC, we did not know these things before.

MR STANDER: And at no stage ever that you know of, did any person or member of the security police in Bloemfontein, lift his hand to a person he was interrogating?

MR TSOAMETSI: No Sir, not between the time I started working here until I left. It might have been before my arrival or after my departure.

MR STANDER: I put it to you that it will be argued before this Commission that it is highly unlikely because it is obvious that when one needs or requires from a person information that is vital, then one will surely employ other methods in order to obtain this information.

MR TSOAMETSI: Understand Sir, if you assault a person trying to get information from him, you'd be saying to the person: "Keep quiet, keep quiet" because this person will be feeling pains.  He will be thinking of his families, he's children his future, he won't be saying anything.

MR STANDER: Are there members of this group that you know were taken to doctors?  I'm now referring to this group of 19.

MR TSOAMETSI: I do not know.

MR STANDER: Where was your office situated, was it on the 4th or the 5th floor?

MR TSOAMETSI: On the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: Did it also have an entrance which led onto Violent Street?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us what your version is, how did Violent Street get its name?

MR TSOAMETSI: I remember one morning when we arrived we found the sticker already stuck on the wall, the sticker was written Violent Street.

MR STANDER: Did you enquire as to who stuck it on the wall?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, I did not do enquires.

MR STANDER: Is it so that from that that day onwards, the name of that passage was Violent Street?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And it was general knowledge amongst all the police officers who were employed there?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Do you think that it was a suitable name for that passage?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR STANDER: Why not?

MR TSOAMETSI: Because that passage did not have any violence.

MR STANDER: Why didn't you take the trouble ask the officers to remove the sticker because according to you nothing happened to justify that name?

MR TSOAMETSI: My seniors even saw it, they could have removed it.

MR STANDER: Did you enjoy working in a passage which was known as Violent Street while you, according to your own information, had no part in any assaults or ever heard of anybody who had been assaulted?