Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

MR COOK: At this stage General, the document - The Foundation for Equality before the Law document, that was also discussed during the drafting of this report?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is so.  And large portions of the other book to which I referred: "The Other Side of the Story", was also taken from this and the Security Council mechanism is discussed in more detail there, what the purpose of it was and how it was put together for the first time.

ADV DE JAGER: What exactly is this document that you're referring to now?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: This was a submission Chairperson, made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and this was a submission made to the Truth Commission.

MR COOK: And then we have the statement by the General, that will be Exhibit G and the Foundation for Equality before the Law will also be handed in and that can be Exhibit H.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, can you just explain to me - Exhibit G, is that the statement that we read certain passages from?

MR COOK: That is indeed so, Exhibit G is the entire document of General Griebenauw - the one which you have in front of you in the red cover, the entire document.  And H is then the document relating the document relating to the Foundation for Equality before the Law and their submission.  But I've been told that most of the Judges have actually dealt with this submission of the Foundation for Equality before the Law at amnesty applications of Mr Cronje and so forth - this document was handed in I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR COOK: Thank you Chairperson, that then concludes my leading of evidence on behalf of General Griebenauw, so he can now be cross-examined.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COOK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR PAPIER: Thank you Honourable Chair, just a few questions.  With you leave, could I just clarify one aspect with my learned colleague Honourable Chair?  Thank you.
	Thank you Honourable Chair, just before I proceed with the cross-examination of the witness, my learned colleague Advocate Cook has handed in several documents, one of which is the report from Ria Kotze, the psychologist.  I would just like to place it on record at this stage that the report was handed to - made available to me on Thursday and we specifically requested this witness to be available today.  
	I note that the witness is not available and we also note that 
the report is dated the 15th of July 1997.  I would just like to place that on record at this stage.  Thank you Honourable Chair.  If I may now proceed with a few questions to the witness.
	General, I understand from your evidence that you perused the transcript - the TRC transcript of Captain Benzien's application, is that correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I have perused the application.

MR PAPIER: And is it correct that you specifically looked at the Ashley Kriel incident as well?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I looked at that as well.

MR PAPIER: Now, were you directly involved in this incident at all - the Ashley Kriel incident?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR PAPIER: Indirectly involved in the Ashley Kriel incident?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR PAPIER: Did you have any knowledge of the Ashley Kriel incident?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: As a result of conversations, yes.

MR PAPIER: Was this before the shooting - the killing of Ashley Kriel or was it after the killing of Ashley Kriel?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It was afterwards.

MR PAPIER: So if I understand your answers correctly, you had not issued any instructions whatsoever with regard to the Ashley Kriel incident, is that correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, most definitely not, I was not in Cape Town at the time.

MR PAPIER: The applicant Captain Benzien, also testified before this Honourable Committee that he was not instructed to arrest or to shoot - to kill Ashley Kriel.  Are you able to shed any further light on that evidence?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Unfortunately not because I wasn't here at the time.

MR PAPIER: I have no further questions, thank you Honourable Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PAPIER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put before him?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I normally come at the end.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR DONAN: Thank you.  Just to repeat who I am, I'm Michael Donan and I'm representing the Yengeni and the Forbes trialists and I'm batting first wicket after Mr Papier.
	Mr Griebenauw, do you prefer to be called General or Mr - before we start?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: You can decide for yourself.

MR DONAN: I'll call you Mr.  Why are you here today?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I'm here Chairperson, because I'm of the view that this case must be put in it's proper perspective - the media only gave one perspective of it, and because I feel that I have a responsibility towards the members who were under my command.

MR DONAN: For you personally applied for an amnesty?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: For no matter which this Commission is aware.

MR DONAN: In respect of what have you applied for an amnesty?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I prefer not to answer that.

MR DONAN: Because - are you here to, as I understand this process of amnesty, the idea is that the whole story will be told and on that basis people will be forgiven.  Are you here to tell the truth and help in that process?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Absolutely yes.

MR DONAN: Now insofar as Mr Benzien is concerned, there is a certain difficulty and that is you weren't - as I understand it, in the Western Cape when Mr Benzien committed the various acts that he's applying for amnesty for.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is so.

MR DONAN: So who would be in a better position to assist the court than you in respect of that period?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He's direct commanding officer in those days would probably be in a better position than myself.

MR DONAN: I'd like to - who was that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I think it was Brigadier Strydom but I stand to be corrected.

MR DONAN: You see, I'll be brutally frank with you, my clients who I represent would really like to know who was responsible for all of this - over an above Mr Benzien.  And every time we ask for a name we don't get an answer, we get who you think or we get - in your particular case, this document which we've all heard before, up to about page 6.
	Do you agree with me that what is recorded here up to page 6, was the regular evidence that you or Mr Stadler would give in every security trial in regard to whether witnesses should give evidence in camera ...[inaudible] the punishment of the accused?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I would agree because I have an idea that you won't be able to change the truth.

MR DONAN: Mr Benzien's testified that in precisely one of those trials, he lied and that was the system that him and his group did - used in the criminal procedure process, they lied about the torture.  Do you know about that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't comment on his lie.

MR DONAN: Well what he says and I put it to you directly, he says that they - that he systematically tortured people and than he systematically lied about it in courts.  Did you know about that?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words he denied torturing people, in court during the trial?

MR DONAN: Thank you.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I'll accept that that could have been the case and that is why I also put it in my statement - in my evidence that each and every person who had a responsibility towards a Section 29 detainee and of who it is alleged that he was tortured or assaulted in some way, each one of those persons must have known what was going on.  In other words, he should have followed up the lie.