Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: No.  There are no streets and there are no addresses in Slovo Park so it's very difficult to say: in this house someone was killed and not in that house, but what we're trying to indicate is that most of the people who were killed were killed in Slovo Park and not a single house in Slovo Park was left unscathed, not to say that a person was killed in every house in Slovo Park.  That is our difficulty.

CHAIRPERSON: Because your key here reflects that.

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It is misleading.  Do you see what I'm saying?  Because you are not saying and you cannot say that people were killed in each and every one of these houses because it's impossible to do that.

MR BERGER: Indeed and that is why ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Now if it's impossible to do that, isn't  there another way of making sure that this is accurate in some respects?

MR BERGER: No, Judge, Chairperson, we can't do that unless we colour them all in in orange and then say that just because they're coloured in in orange it doesn't mean that people weren't killed there.  You see there's that difficulty.  Perhaps what we should do ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Mr Berger, I'm hearing your problem but as the map stands it's misrepresenting the situation so what I'd like to suggest, subject to your colleagues being in agreement is that we ignore the colour pink there for the time being, that at the very least you colour them orange because you say not one house was left unscathed in the sense that they were all damaged and that you leave it as an open question as to which particular individual houses somebody got killed or injured in but that you at least put it to the witness that in those houses X number of people were killed and X number of people were injured.  That you do - you can say with some degree of certainly how many people died in Slovo Park and how many people were injured in Slovo Park although you can't say in which specific houses they were killed, is that right?

MR BERGER: Yes, I'll do that.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What does the green represent?

MR BERGER: Injured Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: People were injured?

MR BERGER: Injured but not killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and then what does orange stand for?

MR BERGER: Houses that were damaged but no-one was killed or injured.

CHAIRPERSON: For all we know in these pink coloured houses, the houses were damaged?

MR BERGER: All of them yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And the occupants of those houses may well have been killed or injured?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should find another formula then of reflecting that because the houses that we accept that all these houses we damaged but in the course of that damage people may have been killed or may have been injured.

MR BERGER: Yes, many were.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you can give us a figure.

MR BERGER: Yes.  And what we'll do is we will change the Slovo Park colour to purple or something which will then be completely different.

CHAIRPERSON: You can leave the pink except that you can indicate that pink reflects the houses that were damaged in which people could either have been killed or injured and then you can give us numbers in due course.

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: To assist my learned friend, I've got the advantage that I was in the criminal trial and I've got certain schedules here and I've calculated that 16 people were killed in Slovo Park and the total of house where these people were staying in, I think one person stayed in a caravan but also in Slovo Park but that can also be called a house, it's approximately nine houses where people were killed in Slovo Park.

MR LAX: Maybe you can assist us by just giving us the rest of the stats and we get them done with in one go, you've worked them all out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you accept what is said?

MR BERGER: I'm indebted to my learned friend.  I will produce the statistics as well but I accept for the time being that that is exactly what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, do we know how many people were injured there?  Was there any evidence?

MR STRYDOM: I can also check that on this schedule of mine.   I calculate three people that testified at the criminal trial on charges of attempted murder but I must say that in my schedule I have certain people, I can calculate them but I don't have an address and they may also be people staying in Slovo Park but I'll calculate those people as well.  I've got 10 names here without addresses that may be people that stayed at Slovo Park at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you identifying them with reference to the charge of attempted murder?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do these 10 include the other three?

MR STRYDOM: It does not include the other there.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's about 13 approximately?

MR STRYDOM: Ja.  I'm not sure about those addresses, I'll have to check them.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  So you don't know whether they come from Slovo Park?

MR STRYDOM: No, the last 10 I don't know whether they're from Slovo Park, I just see on my schedule for some reason or another I did not add addresses and it may be because there was not a fixed address like one would expect in Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Now Mr Berger, that's okay do take, no continue.

MR BERGER: Thank you.
RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF

MR BERGER: Chairperson, our information doesn't seem to tally with Mr Strydom's.  What we have is a schedule detailing all the victims of the attack, house numbers in Slovo Park, people who were killed, people who were injured, as well as people in Boipatong and perhaps we could make this available to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: But insofar as Mr Mthembu is concerned now, what is it that you want to canvass with him in regard to this, because it may well be that with the assistance of Mr Strydom who was at the proceedings, you can check his information as against your instructions and then perhaps in due course you could then submit to the Committee the revised key to the map which would indicate to us, on the basis of an agreed fax, that is the position if you can but if you can't then you'd have to present that conflicting information.  I'm just concerned about the relevance of the figures.  Are the figures really relevant to cross-examination of this witness?

MR BERGER: No, no they're not.

CHAIRPERSON: They're not?

MR BERGER: They're not.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Do you think that can be done?

MR BERGER: That can be done at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.  If you want to canvass anything in regard to this map on a broad basis then I think you can do that.

MR BERGER: Yes, that's what I intended to do, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And then perhaps if you two could just get together as soon as you can so that you can just get this information, in particular with regard to the key.

MR BERGER: We'll do that, thank you.
	Mr Mthembu, coming back to this map in front of you, leave out of account for the time being Slovo Park. Now in Boipatong itself, what you see as orange, those are the houses that were attacked, pink is where people were killed and green is where people were injured.  Do you understand this?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: In Slovo Park, all those houses that you see there in pink, they were attacked and in some of the houses people were killed and others were injured.  Okay?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now, you will notice that there is a large section of Boipatong that was not touched by the attack.  You can see the lefthand side of the map and about two thirds of the way up you will see that there is no orange, no pink and no green which means that those houses were not attacked.  Do you see that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: Do you know why that is?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge of that.