Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR WILLS: Thank you, from another tack and relying on your expertise in these various activities, it seems to me that if the askaris were not being successful in the sense that they were getting the information about the four ANC infiltrators, or they weren't getting the identities, the information wasn't coming through as your affidavit, and I stress your affidavit, indicates, then one would have to do something about that, wouldn't that be so, and there would be I think as Mr Lax has put to a previous witness, one of those things would be to arrest the woman in order to get the information yourselves?  Wouldn't that be so?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is possible.

MR WILLS: Well, let's try and take it a little bit further than that, assuming the askaris were unsuccessful, would you leave the woman and not do anything to her and ignore this vital source of information?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on what the local operators would have done, I mean there are various options - one is to arrest the woman and apprehend her.

MR WILLS: I am asking you, I am not asking about the local operators, I am asking you in the capacity as a senior Security Branch personnel with expertise in these activities, what would you do assuming the askaris were unsuccessful in getting the information, you know this woman is living in a house, you know exactly where she is, what would you do?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Well, number one, tap her telephone.  I assume they had informers that were also in on her and to keep Intelligence operations running in the hope that these people could be apprehended, but I would have withdrawn those askaris at that stage.

MR WILLS: You would have, with respect, you would have withdrawn the askaris and arrest the woman?  Particularly if, as your sentence indicates, time is of the essence, you cannot wait another six weeks?  What do you do if you cannot wait another six weeks?  You are worried about another bomb going off at McGoo's Bar?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Is that a question?

MR WILLS: That is a question, yes, if time was of the essence, what do you do?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am being asked what I would have done.

MR WILLS: Yes.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: And I have already said that if you had exhausted all your information capabilities, then I would concede, to arrest the person and interrogate them.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  I put it to you that this is what happened here, and you know that?  Do you want to comment?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I did not know that beforehand.  I did not know what the instructions were.

MR WILLS: What did you talk to Mr Taylor about in the two hours that you waited or the one to two hours that you waited?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, we discussed the deployment of askaris, the future deployment of askaris and at that stage, Mr Taylor was also considering starting his own Unit in Natal, because they felt that the situation was such that they couldn't wait for us to send teams down every time and there was always a break between deployments and they felt that this was hampering their activities.

MR WILLS: Did you not talk about this operation that was, the fact that there was somebody that was going to be brought in for questioning?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have mentioned before, we discussed that, that is where I got this information as stated in my statement.

MR WILLS: Yes, because it is completely consistent with Taylor's version, and I put that to you from page 4 of his affidavit and that he says, I am referring to page 4 of Bundle 1, the last paragraph, he says
"... at a later stage an askari, Jimmy Mbane.

UNKNOWN: Can we just get the statement.

MR WILLS: It is page 4 of Bundle 1.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR WILLS: He says and to quote
"... at a later stage an askari, Jimmy Mbane, informed us that he had arranged that the Khubeka woman would be brought to us at the old Railway Police shooting range near Winkelspruit."
	He was waiting for the Khubeka woman?

MR LAX: He in fact goes on to say Mr Wills, that
"... I recall that I, myself, was present there on the day waiting for the arrival of the Khubeka woman."

MR WILLS: He must have informed you of this, and that is why you have worded your affidavit in the manner you have?  You weren't waiting for four terrorists, for the leader of some terrorists which no one has given us any information about?  You were waiting for the arrival of the Khubeka woman and you knew that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I was not waiting for anybody.

MR WILLS: What were you doing there, didn't you know anybody was coming?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I wasn't part of the Intelligence gathering operation, I was there to meet with them on other matters concerning the askaris, this is what he informed me of, which is in my affidavit, which I have stated.  This is my recollection of it.

MR WILLS: But don't you think, wouldn't you at least do me the service of conceding that what is said in his affidavit is completely consistent with what you have said in your affidavit?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I will concede that Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, so you have the same version on paper?  Thank you.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Not exactly.

MR WILLS: So, now the other important aspect of your affidavit is that you use the words and Mr Visser has referred you to this, you use the words and I am quoting from the second paragraph, the second sentence of the second paragraph on page 156, you say
"...during the questioning by Capt Botha, I went in and out to establish whether there was any information on the four MK cadres."
	My understanding of English is that there is only one interpretation of that and that is that Capt Botha was questioning the suspect.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I spoke to Capt Botha when I put my head through the door.   Capt Botha informed me what was going on, I was not in the room during the interrogation, I cannot say who was doing the questioning.

MR WILLS: Why do you say that under oath in your application then?  Why don't you say, I mean if you had told us that in the beginning, you would have started this paragraph off, "I don't know, I wasn't in the room, I don't know who did the questioning", but that is not what you say, you say precisely the opposite.  You say
"... during the questioning by Capt Botha ..."
	can you explain that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, he was part of the team that was busy interrogating her.

MR WILLS: You don't say that either?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I assume the people in the room were questioning her and that is why I stated it that way, because this was his operation.

MR WILLS: Well, again, coincidentally Mr Coetzer tells us that the black woman was then being interrogated mainly by Botha and Taylor, so - and I am referring to page 10, I think, I mean paragraph 10 which I presume might be on page 102.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 103.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, do you see that?  Why would Coetzer say that if that wasn't so?  Why would you say this if it wasn't so?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I say, I assumed he was busy questioning her, because he was there.

MR WILLS: So do you want us, are you essentially applying for a variation of your amnesty application to read "during the questioning, I assume by Capt Botha", is that what you wanting me to say now?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Otherwise "during the questioning by Capt Botha and others".

MR WILLS: I put it to you, you are changing your version, but I will proceed.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is not so, Mr Chairman.