Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, he has already said yesterday that he has no knowledge of these people, that he has no knowledge of what they did and that he had heard all of this from the TRC.  That is what he said and I am putting it to him that he is prepared to place anything in his statements, even though he doesn't have any personal knowledge thereof, because I think that it is taking it rather far to implicate two people of whom he has only heard via the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
	That is what I am trying to put.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but if he had information, rumours and wide spread perception about these people, what is wrong in him putting that in his application?  He is not accusing them of anything.

MS VAN DER WALT: But he does exactly that.  He has put that in his statement, he said that these were the people who were providing arms and ammunition to Msibi.  This is what he heard during the sessions of the TRC.
	He cannot rely on that in his amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: But Ms Van der Walt, that is precisely what I was pointing out to you a few moments ago.
	I think we as the panel are capable of omitting that because it is hearsay.   The fact that he has mentioned this in his application, we are aware that this is hearsay and that he said something negative about certain people, is an issue to be cleared up with them at a later stage.
	We are not here to guard there characters.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, I am simply putting it to you that Mr Alfius Msibi was the Mayor in Piet Retief, he was democratically elected.  He is not a member of the IFP, he did not offer shelter to the Black Cats.  He attempted and he lived to support the community and not specific political parties, such as individuals like Andries Kumedi.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There is no such, if the Truth Commission would look at the applications of Msibi, they will see that they said that.  This is why I am saying this as well.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter did not hear the second name that the speaker mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat the second name please?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Platas Keswa and John Mtumsibi's applications.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to put it to you that Mr Msibi was shot in Piet Retief on the 12th of December 1991, and before that, there was no other person, whether ANC or IFP who was killed in a violent situation.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I cannot talk or elaborate on that, I am not a Piet Retief resident.  I was using information that had been given to me by my leader.
	I couldn't go and investigate who of the ANC had been killed.  I was told that Msibi was a Mayor and he was oppressive in his way, dealing with the community, supporting the NP.  That was important enough for me.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have no further questions.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions?

MR HATTINGH: A few thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: I thought you are going to say all your questions have been covered?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, mention was made at this hearing by Mr Mndebele that the ANC was forced to resort to armed robberies to fund its local activities because of attacks on cadres by vigilante gangs, by a vigilante gang.	It was reported in the Citizen ...

MR PATEL: With respect Mr Chairman, I must object, that was not the evidence of Mr Mndebele.  His evidence is simply the following, there was no general instruction from the ANC as such that you ought to resort to violence with regard to robbery.
	The local ANC people decided that it was necessary in their circumstances, it wasn't a general ANC instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, I think your objection was a bit premature, but ...

MR PATEL: I know where the question is going, if I can stop it here, if it pleases the Court.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would appreciate it if I would be allowed to ask the question first.

CHAIRPERSON: You better think of this also Mr Hattingh, you know the media in this country has a history of slants for their own reasons, and then one is dealing with matters such as these, there is not much weight we can attach to it.
	Maybe you can ask for his comment and see what he says, I hope you understand what I am saying.

MR HATTINGH: I do, thank you.  Mr Gushu, let me then rephrase and say it was reported today, the newspaper of today, the Citizen, 22 July 1998, that the evidence that was led at this hearing to the effect that there was an instruction or - from the ANC command that you were allowed to commit robberies in the furtherance of the aims of the ANC.

MR PATEL: I must object to that question Mr Chairman, it is obvious to everybody sitting here and who heard the evidence, particularly Mr Hattingh that the report is incorrect.
	What is the point of putting an incorrect report of which we are all aware, to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is a fair comment.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I did not put the contents of the newspaper report to this witness now.  I told him what was said during this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: During the hearing it was said that the local ANC structure gave this order as it were, or allowed this mandate to be carried out, as opposed and I think what Mr Patel is referring to, as opposed to a national policy which the newspaper seems to have got on to.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hattingh, I put it to Mr Mndebele whether this was in line with general ANC policy and his response was it was not in line with the general ANC policy, but that it was the  feeling at the local level.  That was the way I recall it, it is perhaps a basis of Mr Patel's objection.

CHAIRPERSON: that is Correct.  Let me put it this way to you Mr Gushu, are you aware of what the general ANC policy at national level was in respect of resorting to robbery to finance projects or can't you say?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have already said Mr Chairperson, I am not a politician, I am a soldier.  Therefore, I don't have such knowledge or I don't know much about the policy of the ANC on these matters.

ADV SANDI: In your evidence Mr Gushu yesterday, if we can attempt to recall that, you said you had no specific instruction to go about committing acts of robberies, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please repeat your question, I did not understand well.

ADV SANDI: Did you say yesterday all you heard was a general command to do all those things you told us yesterday, you had to do, but you had no specific instruction to go about committing acts of robbery?  Robbery would be an initiative on your part and not something you had been instructed to do, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes sir, that is correct.  My instruction was pretty open.  I had said and explained yesterday that we were raided by the police in the townships and they would take our firearms.  Even if I would go to an ANC office, I would not be able to get money to buy a firearm.  It was my own thinking that I should do this.
	The ANC did not have money, it would wait until it received some money, some funds, sponsorship from somewhere or other.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you.  Mr Gushu, are you prepared to tell the full truth to this Commission, to the Committee today?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, it is the truth that I have spoken already.

MR HATTINGH: Are you prepared to make full disclosure to this Committee?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, full disclosure.  I have said everything that I know.

MR HATTINGH: Are you, yourself prepared to make a disclosure about any other incident apart from the incidents for which you make amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: How relevant is that Mr Hattingh?  You are aware of my ruling.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I am not referring to the other matter on which the amnesty application is still pending.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about other criminal activities maybe?

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you entitled to put him at risk?