Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: There had been serious unrest in Kwandabele from1984.

<UNKNOWN>: You have also given testimony that the Mbkhotowere founded with the apparent purpose of supporting the KwandabeleGovernment with the purpose of achieving the independence of Kwandabele,is that the case?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Again to elaborate on your testimony with regardto the Mbkhoto, although this was the purpose of their
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founding, what exactly did the Mbkhoto do and to what extent didthey deviate from this initial purpose?

ANSWER: They entirely deviated from the original purposeof founding, they became Pete Ntuli's political force, they committedarson and murder and arranged consumer and school boycotts.  In a particular case Pete Ntuli, with the Mbkhoto, entered a schoolwhich was quite calm at the time and where the people were goingto school, Ntuli hit and drove the teachers in the children outof the school with sjamboks and knopkieries.

<UNKNOWN>: To what extent did they Mbkhoto, of whom PeteNtuli was the leader, operate in a manner similar to that of theANC and the UDF in that area?

ANSWER: They operated in exactly the same manner as theANC.

<UNKNOWN>: What effect did their activities have on theSouth African and Kwandabele Governments' efforts to advance independencefor Kwandabele?

ANSWER: It put a spoke in the wheels entirely for theprocess of independence because it was not possible to grant independenceif the area was entirely destabilised, they therefore worked entirelyin opposition to the political purposes of the Government.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, you have given testimony that yourequested that Ntuli be arrested and that Minister Heunis wouldnot allow this.   Can you explain this or could you think whatthe explanation might have been?

ANSWER: Pete Ntuli was probably a thorn in the fleshof the South African Government and they lost control over him
entirely.   It was not possible to arrest him or to detain himsince the South African Government, to use the English
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word would have been the world's laughing-stock.   The Cabinetof Kwandabele would have lost all trust in the South African Governmentsince the South African Government would then have locked up oneof their Ministers.

<UNKNOWN>: Did the South African Government support theKwandabele Government of that time, was the South African Governmentin support of the then Kwandabele Government?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember whether the South AfricanGovernment at that time, not regarding your information, but didthey consider Pete Ntuli to be someone apparently on their side?

ANSWER: They did indeed, they considered Pete Ntuli tobe on their side and he also gave that image.

<UNKNOWN>: Did they also propagate(?) him as being oneof their supporters?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: If I understand your testimony, it would havebeen an embarrassment for them under such circumstances to arresthim?

ANSWER: Indeed, a serious embarrassment.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier you have also given testimony thatNtuli however in fact did the opposite to what the South AfricanGovernment wanted and in fact did the same as the ANC at thattime.   You referred to information available to you that he wasin fact a supporter of the ANC, could you elaborate on the sourceof this information?

ANSWER: This information came from informants and ofcourse it was apparent from his activities by means of the Mbkhoto.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, the action then taken to eliminate
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Pete Ntuli, was that the only possible action against him?

ANSWER: This would have been the only possible actionagainst him since if we were to detain him, it would have beena considerable embarrassment for the Government of the day.

<UNKNOWN>: Would his elimination have benefitted the SouthAfrican and Kwandabele Governments at that time?

ANSWER: It would indeed have been to their benefit sincethe region would then have been able to follow the normal courseof events and it would have been stabilised.

<UNKNOWN>: If the area were to be stabilised, would itthen have been easier to achieve independence?

ANSWER: Certainly.

<UNKNOWN>: Why would you claim thus?

ANSWER: We would then have been able, in the absenceof Pete Ntuli, to convince the population to accept independence.

JUDGE WILSON: : When did they do so, when did they acceptindependence?

ANSWER: I don't know the date Your Honour.
MR ?:: Kwandabele never accepted independence.
MR ?:: That's according to my facts as well, the position,yes.

JUDGE WILSON: : So you say if you removed him you wouldhave been able to persuade them to accept independence, but itnever happened, so that reason is totally invalid.

ANSWER: At that time I was unaware of the fact that theywould not accept independence and in addition the Commissionerin Kwandabele, Brigadier Van Niekerk, was replaced by a differentBrigadier, Brigadier Hertzog Lerm and Lerm took the Mbkhoto andmade them special constables
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and he then just continued where Ntuli had ended his activities,but he did it for different purposes, he did it for his own financialgain.
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Would this have then caused additional problemswith regard to independence for the Government?

ANSWER: Indeed, to such an extent that Brigadier Lermat a later stage was forced to retire as medically unfit.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't it so that Kwandabele very nearlybecame independent, they had taken certain advanced steps towardsindependence, for example they had already built a Supreme Court,a building which was supposed to be a Supreme Court?

ANSWER: That is in fact the case Chair.

JUDGE NGCOBE: Although they didn't really become independent,they were already well on the way to becoming independent?

ANSWER: Indeed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : A date had already been set down for thesaid independence of Kwandabele some time in 86, was Trevits awareof that?

ANSWER: I cannot remember whether I was aware of it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Were you aware that the whole populationof Kwandabele was completely opposed to the idea and the notionof independence?

ANSWER: I was aware of this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : So in fact, having to remove Pete Ntuliwho was a leader of Mbkhoto, would not have really addressed yourproblems?

ANSWER: It would have solved the problem in this way,namely that we would then not have had to deal in addition
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with Pete Ntuli and his Mbkhoto, we would only have had to payattention to the ANC and the UDF and we would then be able toact against them and in that way we hoped to be able to persuadethe population to accept independence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Are you saying that there was an activepresence of the ANC and the UDF at Kwandabele?

ANSWER: Yes there was.
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier do you know whether the so-called"comrades" were active in Kwandabele?

ANSWER: They were active in Kwandabele.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, if the destabilising effect of theMbkhoto were to be neutralised by the elimination of their leaderPete Ntuli, would it have been your view at that time that thiswould have eased the steps to independence?

ANSWER: Indeed because then the Mbkhoto would have beenwithout a leader.

<UNKNOWN>: To just make it entirely clear, when BrigadierLerm took over, exactly what did he do, could you make this quiteclear to the Committee?

ANSWER: He continued with arson, school boycotts, theadvancing of consumer boycotts and similar actions with the Mbkhoto.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you say that he acted beyond his policeactivities?

ANSWER: Certainly beyond his task as a police officer.

<UNKNOWN>: Did this cause a problem for the South Africanand Kwandabele Governments?

ANSWER: Indeed, to such an extent that he was forcedto retire.