Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, Comrade Winnie Mandela was a member of the African National Congress, was perceived to be a member, but the reality was post-1964 the movement had extreme difficulty in establishing lines of communications with home. And many people that it contacted, whom it knew were members of the ANC pre-'94, pre-Rivonia arrests, the facts were as cadres were infiltrated into the country they'd often get arrested, and we had to raise concerns whether they were not already surrounded by the security forces. But matters were not static. New spaces opened up for struggle by a combination of factors, and as those spaces opened up there was a regeneration of the mass struggles in the country. So we also know that many of the people identified by the regime as known ANC people were also surrounded by agents of the enemy in order to get people to come through those channels into the ANC. This was another dimension of the problem.
Clearly many of us, different individuals carried out and performed, carried out activity in the country and outside which not all of us were happy with all the time. But I think that we need to be clear that in the period that we are talking, that you are raising these issues, it would be important that these matters are brought to us so that we can present our ...(indistinct), so that we can look at what were the facts. We need to also be mindful that there was one court action already.
So those were the conditions under which they were operating, and she amongst others, in very harsh conditions. The organisation did try to reach her from time-to-time. At times by couriers, at times through other cut-outs, and certainly at other times through all forms of telephonic contact that had opened up. I certainly am aware that those contacts were even made when I was in the country in '88, but I was clear, that if I went close to any of these people of that calibre our mission would have to be aborted or we would be captured because the enemy had surrounded us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nzo.

MR NZO: Mr Chairman I just wanted to get back to what had been said earlier on the question of necklacing which has been debated very hotly by my colleagues. At one point I thought that it was not necessary for me to say anything in spite of the fact that somehow a quote had been made, attributed to me, on the question of necklacing.
Now, the whole issue of necklacing when looked at in the context of what the people were facing from the apartheid regime at that time and suddenly they discover that that regime was employing hundreds of informers against them, and spontaneously on the ground they decide what they did. It doesn't explain there that it was not possible from the very beginning, although of course attempts were being made subsequently to that, to try and see to it that they understand how wrong this is, but you don't stand up from the very beginning and shout without having to demoralise people who are trying to resolve a problem.
Now one thing of course that must be known here is that no African National Congress at any time sat down and decided as a matter of form of struggle that a necklace must be used. That did not happen at all. It was a spontaneous action by people who were facing what they were facing at the time, and it had to be treated very sensitively in order for it - and of course we must really congratulate them for having, in the end, listened to what the African National Congress had to say, which was doing so - at the beginning we have heard that our President Tambo was in fact saying to others, no - to people that he met, that look this thing had better stop, and eventually people listened, and they stopped. And I think they ought to be congratulated because it was a response for having listened eventually to the ANC. They were doing this in a response to a situation that was very difficult on them and of course I mean we couldn't, by the very next day when they were doing this say, no, no, no you are wrong, especially when they were saying that they are targeting the enemies of the struggle that were assisting the apartheid regime.
But as I say the matter has been explained adequately by my colleagues earlier and I thought I should just merely say this because I happened to have been quoted.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Modise.

MR MODISE: I think it is correct to respond to the questioner positively. I think the President, our late President Oliver Tambo took steps to send a message to Comrade Winnie and got - I say it is true - it is correct for me to point out that the late President Oliver Tambo did send a message home intended to reach Comrade Winnie and others, to get them to distance themselves from this method of dealing with enemy agents.

CHAIRPERSON: Jacob Zuma.

MR ZUMA: Yes, without adding much, what I would just want us not to lose sight of that the whole question of the necklace originated from the regime. They were responsible for it, they used their agents to portray it as if it actually emerged from the people in general. At the beginning I think people did not know, nor did we know, but I think it is now an established fact. I am just hoping that with all the questions that are being posed we don't lose sight of that fact, that in fact it was a deliberate tactic used to show that people were doing inhuman things in South Africa, by the regime. I just wanted to underline that fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Just first a comment. I think whoever originated it in terms of the people who have come to the Commission and have told us their stories and have claimed membership of the ANC, they have made it clear that they were involved in necklacing. That's straightforward fact.
I think, and I want to choose my words very carefully here, that many of us say things for which we have profound regrets later on, in the heat of the moment, and I think that perhaps when one does do that, when the appropriate time has come is for us simply to say look, I was wrong, I apologise. Some things you can't explain away and to say well if people decide to use the necklace method well then we support them is something which I think one simply has to deal with and move away from because that was not, as I hear you, what your former President and you yourselves have claimed.
The other point I wanted to make is a further question and that also arises out of a hearing that was held by the Commission when the mother of Stompie Sepei came to us and asked us to assist her in trying to resolve a number of questions which she felt were still outstanding. As in all cases we said that we would do our very best to do that. And in the other instances referred to by Mr Vally I would just like to add this one as well for your comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.