Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we'd like to thank you for the helpful memorandum which you have furnished us with.  We do hope that it will help to expedite matters.  
	Mr Tshabangu?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before Mr Tshabangu continues, could the memorandum be marked Exhibit O please.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the memorandum submitted on behalf of the victims, which is dated the 8th of August, will then be handed in as Exhibit O.  By the way, I beg your pardon, you don't have any - do you have any objections to the memorandum handed in?

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MS CAMBANIS: No Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Prior ...(indistinct)

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed, as I understand the papers of the memo, it is merely to outline the case of the victims and to indicate as far as practical where areas of dispute lie.

MR PRIOR: I've said that, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Until such time that there is agreement on the contents of the memo, it can , you know those admitted matters may then acquire the status of the evidence.  Am I right in that understanding Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes Chairperson, the - I'm sorry, if I could also just place on record, the purpose of this memorandum, as you've correctly pointed out Chairperson, is to reduce areas of dispute between the victims and the applicants.  We hope that our learned friends for the applicants, after having gone through the memorandum, will be in a position to indicate which paragraphs are admitted and which are disputed.  Those which are disputed we will then be leading evidence on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu have I reminded you that you're under oath?  I'm now reminding you that you are under oath.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: (s.u.o.)

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson before my learned friend continues, I just want to place on record that four of the applicants are not here yet.  The four are the people that are in custody.  Apparently two of them had to appear in some criminal court this morning.  I was informed about that yesterday, but they said they'll come here in any event.  So, but I don't know what went wrong, but apparently they are on their way and I've objection if we continue in the meantime without them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(indistinct).  Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: (continued)  Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Tshabangu there is a matter that I must clear up with you.  Mr Miga came to me yesterday after the hearings and again this morning, and he was perturbed that what I had in fact put to you might not,  might have been not as I had been instructed, and he wants me to correct that.  You will remember yesterday I put to you that at your hearing you and Getisi Victor Gerswa threatened to assault Mr Miga, do you remember that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Miga says I overstated the position, and the position is as follows:  actual hearing and in a corridor outside the court.  Mr Miga was walking along and you and Victor Gerswa and others came in his direction and you blocked his way, and he says that he felt threatened and intimidated by your actions, not to say that you verbally threatened to assault him.  Do you have any comment on that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That didn't happen.

MR BERGER: You also state in your affidavit that bodies of IFP members which had been buried were dug up and burned, are you referring to an incident in Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: You also state in your affidavit that prior to the attack, a month before the attack on Boipatong, there was a march on kwaMadala by ANC supporters.  Are you not mistaken, and that the true position is that on the 18th of June 1992, after the attack on Boipatong, the residents of Boipatong marched towards kwaMadala Hostel, but they were stopped and turned back?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Before the 17th of June 1992 the ANC, that is the ANC at Boipatong, marched to kwaMadala threatening that we should be evicted and the hostel should be demolished.  And these were the utterances of the ANC itself that the hostels should be demolished at the time.

MR BERGER: You spoke yesterday in your evidence about an incident in Sharpeville where you were surrounded and accused of being a police informer.  It was at a time when you were with Mr Mbatha.  Do you remember that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And it's your evidence that the people who confronted you specifically said that Mr Mbatha could go and that they weren't interested in him, but they were interested in you.  Is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No that Mbatha alone, they also released other people with whom we were walking, and they confronted me, but it was only one of those people.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: ...(inaudible) I think it was somewhere around 1990/'92 - early in 1992.

MR BERGER: They said to you and this whole group that you were in, including Mr Mbatha, "here are the Zulus", but then let everyone go except you.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: After they were manhandled and assaulted, they were released and they came to me.

MR BERGER: It was your evidence yesterday that this group of people who confronted you said Bongane Mbatha should go, "they surrounded me but I managed to escape".  Wasn't it your evidence yesterday that you were the specific target of this group of people?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I did say something like that yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: The persons that were released, were they only released after they had been assaulted?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How were they assaulted?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: They were manhandled, kicked and beaten with bottles.

CHAIRPERSON: And beaten with bottles?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, bottles.

CHAIRPERSON: Broken bottles?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I won't know because it was in front of the tavern, at the gate of the tavern, but I do not remember whether the bottles were broken or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Roughly how long did this assault on these persons last?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It happened so quickly, it may have been one or two minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how people were in this group?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: The ones who were attacking us?

CHAIRPERSON: I mean those who were being attacked.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Are you referring to the people in my company - I'm speaking under correction, there may have been four or six.

CHAIRPERSON: And those who were attacking you, how many were they?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: They may have been seventeen.

MR BERGER: And this took place in Sharpeville?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You also mentioned yesterday that you never complained to anybody in a leadership position in the hostel about the things that were happening to you, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, I also said that at the meeting that was held at the stadium I was actually one of the people who were complaining about our being killed.  I am explaining here I never went to a specific leader and complained to him, but yes, I was one of the people who spoke at the meeting at the stadium.

MR BERGER: This is the meeting three weeks before the attack, or the meeting one week before the attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I do not remember which meeting it was exactly.

MR BERGER: You attended a number of meetings, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At your criminal trial you told the court that after your arrival at kwaMadala you and Mr Moses Mthembu sat down and had a discussion about your position.  You discussed your residence at kwaMadala, and the fact that you were still a member of the police, do you remember that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was that evidence true and correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you also discussed your suspension from the Police Force, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I do not remember.