Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: To use Mr Mkhwanazi's words, there was a wide rumour, and this wide rumour had been going on since 1992, and had not stopped.  And it was as a result of that rumour that Skosana captured these women, brought them to the offices of the ANC, and the community participated in their interrogation, they gave their version, and the community decided to condone their actions.

JOHN RADEBE: I don't believe that Skosana would just discipline them for something which is not relevant.  If we were supposed to kill people because of rumours we could have killed many people.  We used to receive information then we would verify that information from other comrades, and then if a person says that a certain person is that kind of a person, you must tell your reasons why he says that, up to the point where you would understand that that person is a member of Inkatha.  Because at times the people would label you as Inkatha member whilst you're not a member.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand your response to what I have put to you initially.

JOHN RADEBE: I hear the Chairperson saying that wide rumour continued and it did not stop, or it was not stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and it was the same wide rumour that resulted in the ladies in question being captured by Skosana, being interrogated by members of the community, and the community at that meeting decided to administer lashes to them and did not execute them.  It was the same wide rumour that continued, notwithstanding the community's action in administering the lashes, and condoning their actions.

JOHN RADEBE: All I can tell this Committee is that I did not act because of wild rumours.  I did this based on the information received from my comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: You know I at times find it difficult to comprehend your evidence, and I don't know whether you keep on contradicting yourself deliberately or not.  You have been the one to be saying it was a wide rumour that was going around that these women continued to act in the way they had been acting before.  Now why are you saying you couldn't have acted on a wide rumour because this is your evidence, it's coming from you?  You say it was widely rumoured, the same words that Mr Mkhwanazi also referred to when he gave evidence.  Now why do you want to now appear to be a person who would never act on a rumour?

JOHN RADEBE: It is true because I said I heard those rumours, but that would not be the reason for me to kill a person because it was rumoured in the township.  There would be comrades who would chase the real facts, and be verified, and then it would be verified how they received that information.

CHAIRPERSON: You were second in command.  Do you know whether in this case there was any verification conducted?  Since you would have us believe that you wouldn't act on a wild rumour or one of your comrades pointing out somebody as being an IFP member or collaborator.

JOHN RADEBE: There was nothing which I would do without receiving orders.  Comrade Mabusa came to me and told me that we have these two people who are doing this kind of work.  Then I thought that comrade would not tell me something which was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not within your personal knowledge whether comrade Mabusa relied on information which had been verified, and whether he did not rely on the information that was the same, and the preceded the administration of punishment by the community.  You wouldn't be able to say anything about that, that's not within your personal knowledge, is it?

JOHN RADEBE: May you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You would be unable to say for a fact whether comrade Mabusa relied on the information which had been verified.  You can't say that.  And you cannot say that comrade Mabusa did not rely on the same information that led to the community administering lashes on the two ladies in question.  You wouldn't be able to say that.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when I asked you earlier on about when the command was issued to you by Mabusa, you gave me two answers. You said it could be a few months before the incident, then you corrected yourself, you said it could be a few weeks.  In relation to the occurrence of this incident, which is the 15th of August 1993.  In relation to that incident.

JOHN RADEBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to that incident, how would you approximate the month in which you were given an order to execute these two women?

JOHN RADEBE: I would tell a lie if, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these not important orders?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, they were important.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you been given such orders before?  To execute women.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Specifically women?

JOHN RADEBE: No, not women.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so why are you unable to remember an incident which must have left some mark?

JOHN RADEBE: At that time I was thirteen years old, and we did so many things at that time.  We were thirteen years old if I was not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not almost seventeen years old?

JOHN RADEBE: I said if I'm not mistaken.  I was approximately fifteen years old.

MR LAX: You were actually sixteen and a half at the time.  Based on the date of birth you gave us earlier.  But that's a factual matter, it's, just clear up your misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason that would make you forget when orders were given to you?

JOHN RADEBE: It's not the reason for me to forget.  The reason is that we did many things.

CHAIRPERSON: But definitely you had not received any orders from your commander prior to this incident, to execute women who were suspected of being IFP collaborators.

JOHN RADEBE: I said I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought you had said you didn't?

JOHN RADEBE: The instruction was not to kill women.  The instruction was that I should kill whoever brings death among the community.  That's why I say it's a woman or it's a man is immaterial.

CHAIRPERSON: But in respect of this incident, your evidence is that you were given specific orders to execute two women.  That is your evidence.  The order was specific, in terms of who and the gender of the person you had to execute.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you had never been specifically ordered to kill women.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you gave evidence about the specific orders you gave to Mr Mkhwanazi.  Have I understood your evidence properly, if I encapsulate it in this fashion, that your order to Mr Mkhwanazi was to go after Ms Ndumo, after she had fled into the tavern?  Was that the nature of the order you gave to Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: I produced a gun and then I said chase after her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you understand that to be an order from you, and that your order was only in respect of him pursuing Ms Ndumo, and nothing further than that?

JOHN RADEBE: He would decide what he would do because as I said he must pursue her.  He knew that that person should be killed, because he would ask me why should I pursue her.  He did that because he knew what should happen, what was happening.  It was not a new thing to him.

CHAIRPERSON: If you give evidence to the effect that you ordered Mr Mkhwanazi, and if you were asked to detail the kind of order you issued to Mr Mkhwanazi, just tell us briefly what would be your response.  What order did you give to Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: Is that she, he should pursue this lady.  I was in a certain mood, because there were other things which I said to him but in my mind I had a picture of this person running away, then I ordered Mkhwanazi to chase after him because I shot somebody run away then I give him the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that the gun you were giving him had no ammunition?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: What then was the purpose of giving him a gun which had no ammunition?