Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

AZHAR CACHALIA: No, it was from my point, it was really a series of inferences over a long period.  If you look at the 1980's and go back to the statement, where I for example at 8.3 refer to, I refer to one or two cases there, that I think all I am saying to you and remember I have come here and I am testifying, testifying as to my state of mind around the adoption of the MDM statement in 1989.
 Now what I say there is that the climate in which Mrs Mandela created her own personal vigilante gang, that is if you like my understanding of what happened.

MR SEMENYA: Let me ask you a simple, direct question.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Is there any fact you know that gives rise to you saying that Mrs Mandela created her own personal vigilante gang?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Is there any fact, you must try and rephrase that, is there any fact that I know?

MR SEMENYA: That supports the statement you make, Mrs Mandela created her own personal vigilante gang?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I have no direct fact, I have never claimed to have any direct evidence, or personal knowledge of the creation of the gang and Mrs Mandela.  But that is how I understood it and that is my assertion.

MR SEMENYA: But with respect, Mr Cachalia, you are a very responsible member of the community, you are a very responsible leader within the political formations of the country, how do you make a statement like that as a lawyer, when you have no fact to support it?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I make it quite simply and quite comfortably.

MR SEMENYA: Oh, is that how it happens?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Now, I want to refer you to a document which was called Operation Romilos.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Operation Romeo's?

MR SEMENYA: Operation Romilos.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Oh, I thought you are going to start raising other matters about my past.  I am joking, I am being precocious.

MR SEMENYA: I think it would be common cause, this is a Security Force measure, a document which is intended as its heading the Dissemination of Suitable Material re Winnie Mandela Abroad, Discreditation of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: What document are you referring to there?  We do have it, sorry, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: The second page of that document has something like this, but all of this is discreditation of Winnie Mandela and the ANC.  There is a paragraph (8) which reads as follows.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Before you start, can I just ask when was that document drawn up, who compiled it, I have never heard of Operation Romilos.  If you can just give us some indication of where it comes from.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, it is at least as we have it, signed by the Section Head, J.H.B. Bruwer, Major, in Johannesburg, 1991-06-20.  That is the date.  It is compiled by then there is a signature P.F. Erasmus, Warrant Officer.
 But maybe it would be preferable that I give you the document to have a look at as well.

AZHAR CACHALIA: It would actually be useful especially if you are going to ask me questions on it.

CHAIRPERSON: I have to be consistent, I refused on an application to quote from a document that has not yet in fact been part of the public domain, Mr Joseph, wanted to refer to a document and I would think that if I am consistent, I should rule ... (intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Archbishop, I think this document can be distinguished from your previous ruling.  In your previous ruling what Mr Joseph was seeking to do was try to quote from a statement that a witness was going to make.  This is a document which has existed in the independent of our processes.  So I think it is  a different scenario.

MS MOOSA: Hanif, can I just ask, is Mr Semenya going to use the affidavit of Paul Erasmus or Operation Romulus?

MR VALLY: Mr Semenya can answer that?

MR SEMENYA: I was referring the witness to the document, Operation Romulus, on page 2.

DR BORAINE: Sorry, Mr Semenya, can you clarify that, is it the sworn statement that you are looking at?

MR SEMENYA: That is a document with stamped copy.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the cover, what is the cover of the whole batch?

MR SEMENYA: It is at the Truth and Reconciliation hearing held at Johannesburg in the matter of Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, evidence of John Louis McPherson and it is an annexure to that document.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, my position is from sitting on this side, that it is very important for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to determine what is fact against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and what is disinformation.  In terms of our own processes, this is not a statement of a person who we are intending to lead at this point.
 We are going to lead people talking about Operation Romulus, in fact we have two witnesses scheduled and Mr Erasmus and Mr Vic McPherson.   But the document itself predates their evidence through us, so from my perspective it is important that it be canvassed.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just have a two minute consultation.  Is that the only part of this batch, that you are going to refer to?

MR SEMENYA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.    Yes, I think then that is in order, we should just give him the opportunity to peruse it, if you will, so let's take a two minute break.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR SEMENYA: Mr Cachalia, I had meant to cover an aspect in your evidence where a response by Mrs Mandela that these publications were Stratcom publications, I think your response to that was no, this definitely was ours.
 I am trying to explain the context in which that comment must have been made.  If you look at the document Operation Romulus and I don't want to go through the entire document, let me just highlight aspects about it which indicate that indeed there were police operatives, who were meant to do this discreditations.
 If you look at page 2, paragraph 8, it says this office further capitalised on the situation by creating the perception that City Press who are under the ANC hammer for their stance on the matter, that some of the information was forwarded from Cheadle Thompson and Haysam, a legal firm and which will in turn give credence to yet another action in which staff member and SACP member, Sheila (indistinct) was severely discredited.
 I am saying an office such as Cheadle Thompson and Haysam which have immense respect as a legitimate law firm in the furtherance of the struggle, was also targeted in furtherance of this object, is that right?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I would have assumed that, it is interesting to read that, but I would assume that, they would have been doing that.

MR SEMENYA: That is right, and it says at paragraph 9 that the problem is continuing and further developments would be recorded in due course.  So it begins to suggest that this Operation doesn't terminate at this particular point.
 Now would you state it as unreasonable whenever the media circulated that the mass democratic movements are distancing themselves from Mrs Mandela, that she could have held the belief that it must be again a Stratcom dissemination of propaganda?

AZHAR CACHALIA: It is difficult for me to talk about Mrs Mandela's own beliefs.  But the point about this is that if Mrs Mandela held that view, then she would really have to hold the view that firstly those on the public platform that day, Murphy Morobe, Archie Gomele, Elija Bagai, stalwarts of the struggle, was somehow in the pocket of some sinister Stratcom.
 And quite frankly it is really a proposition that is so preposterous and ludicrous, that I don't know how Mrs Mandela could reasonably have assumed that.

MR SEMENYA: I don't want to take up again with you your adjectives again, but let's get finally back maybe to your statement.
 The last page ... (intervention)

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, you are now reading at the last page of Romulus, my statement?