Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairman, what I am stating is that over the distance of two to three paces, the distance that you showed at the Commission here, you could not miss the person with the AK47 you were shooting with, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So would you say that you killed people in the fourth house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill people in the fourth house you went into?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I fired at people in that house.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you fire at?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think it was just one person if I am not mistaken.

MR STRYDOM: Every time you come out of one of these houses, you find the casspir in the street, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was driving slowly and the people in the casspir, were shooting at the people in the streets.

MR STRYDOM: So obviously the people in the streets that ran away, would have seen this casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, but the people were fleeing, but because there was light, I should assume that they saw the casspir.

MR STRYDOM: And then you went into the fifth house.  Did you kill people in that house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I got into the fifth house and shot and killed as well.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you kill in that house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Two of them if I am not mistaken.

MR STRYDOM: If we add the five houses together, the people that you killed in those houses, how many people would you say did you kill in total?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

MR STRYDOM: In your statement you said
"... I think I killed eight or nine people,"
	would you say that is more or less correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I said I went into five houses.  I am saying I went into the first house, I don't know how many people I killed  in the fifth house, not that I killed nine people in the fifth house.

MR STRYDOM: No, no, you stated earlier that he killed two people in the fifth house, but I want to know if you add all the houses together, all the people that you killed, you say that you killed approximately eight, nine people in the five houses, adding them together?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie.

MR STRYDOM: All right.  After the fifth house, did you go into any other house during the course of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember.  I just walked up the street, others were shooting at the same time.  I only shot again at Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into houses at Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I shot people in a shack, I did not get into the shack.  I cannot remember whether I got into a shack, but I did shoot people.

MR STRYDOM: Those people you killed in a shack, did you shoot through a window, or right through the shack, or what did you do?  Did you go into it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Slovo Park is not like the township, you have this precast wall and some fences as well.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but that is not the question.  Let me ask you in this way, would you say that you killed people in Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did shoot people there.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you shoot at in Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.  I do not remember how many people I killed there.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember shooting at more than one person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible, because I did shoot people.  There were many of us, I cannot say how many.  I did shoot at people, I cannot say how many people I shot and how many of these people died.

MR STRYDOM: You won't be able to say approximately how many people you killed during the course of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie.  Whether there are people who just got injured, other died, really I cannot say.

MR STRYDOM: Paragraph 19 of the statement, page 21, it is stated here
"... I think I killed eight or nine people that night in eight different houses."
	Let's just apply our minds to the eight or nine people, is that then not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is a mistake.

MR STRYDOM: The second mistake in that sentence is that during the night, or that night, in eight different houses.  You didn't go into eight different houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I am saying I went into five houses in the township itself, five houses from the first houses.  I did not go into eight houses.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: But why did you tell Mr Kjellberg eight houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, maybe the mistake is with the person who was interpreting for me.  I did indicate, I am saying the person who was interpreting, was such that I would stop him at some time.  I only went into five houses.

MR STRYDOM: And that five houses was in the Boipatong Section, not the Slovo Park Section?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At Boipatong, not Slovo Park.  I am saying the township houses at Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, I want to put it to you that in the area where you described where you entered Boipatong with the casspir, no houses was attacked.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.

MR STRYDOM: I can take it further, obviously no people then were killed in those houses.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know about that.  We did go into the houses there.

MR STRYDOM: I also want to put it to you that I have checked the post mortem reports, and the post mortem report is a report by the person that examines the body of a deceased person, to get an indication what the cause of death is.  What I am putting to you is that your version, that you shot at least six people, possibly more, probably more with the AK47, does not accord with these post mortem reports.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that, but I saying there were AK's there.  I am saying we did have AK47's when we were shooting people, we were not using small guns.  We were not using small guns, we were using big guns like AK's.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I have taken that up with my learned colleague, and she indicated to me that she is prepared to admit the contents of the post mortem reports.  As far as the legal advice for the family is concerned, we've got that memorandum where they set out the causes of death and that has been admitted between the applicant and the family in terms of that document, but the outstanding admission would have been between the legal advisor for the 17th applicant, Mr Nosenga, and she is prepared to admit the contents of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that Ms Tanzer?

MS TANZER: I do confirm that, I admit the report.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chairman, I would just like Adv Strydom to place on record the conversation that we had concerning, we did raise the question of the post mortems, it was common cause between Mr Strydom and myself, the post mortem reports do not indicate that AK bullets were not used to kill persons.  I can't agree with what Adv Strydom is saying, he conceded in our discussion yesterday that there was no proof that no AK was used, arising from the post mortem so I am bewildered by what he is putting.

MR STRYDOM: I have gone through all the post mortem reports and the reply or the memorandum and the reply, and from that I gather the following.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the issue really turns on whether the post mortem report indicates that the AK47 were not used on the day in question, is that the issue?

MS CAMBANIS: That is the issue, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STRYDOM: I will state that, the reports do not indicate which weapons were used, but for a few instances where it is stated that a shotgun was used, you can find that in some of the reports.