Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR PHOSA: Yes, but you are not dealing with the portion I'm dealing with.  I don't want to force you to give answers in my favour or otherwise, I just want to know that the day after they'd been abducted - when you got up the next day, you being Erasmus, did you - where you thinking then that they died the day before?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think it is logical to say that I did think about it and I'm not sure whether I actually slept that night, I can't tell you that now.

MR PHOSA: Are you suggesting - I'm just trying to understand, are you suggesting that it is possible that you were so worried about this decision - the kidnapping of these people, that you might not have slept out of worry because of that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That's not what I'm suggesting.  If you're saying to me: "I got up that morning", all I'm saying to is I'm not even sure if I even slept that night.  I'm not trying to say that which you are now suggesting to me.

MR PHOSA: Just to let you into my ...[inaudible] on my mind, I raised that because I thought you might have been saying: "I was so worried about this terrible thing - decision, that I could not go to bed", however you say you're saying you're not saying that.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying I can't remember whether I slept that night, I'm saying I was worried and concerned on an ongoing basis and I was worried about my colleagues who actually had to carry out this inhuman act.  I don't know whether I slept that night or not.

MR PHOSA: So it is ...[inaudible] then that for as much as 24 hours - I'm just giving an indication - I'm just assuming it could be that, for about 24 hours, a good part thereof after you had been told they had been abducted, you didn't bother to find out: "Have you done it, have you not"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I didn't have contact with these people, this was in the days before we had the luxuries of cell phones and that kind of thing.

MR PHOSA: I would like you to realise that whatever you say we take seriously.  Are you now saying that it was impossible for you for a period of even 24 hours after the report, to find out from these people whether they had actually killed these two young people?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What I'm saying is that I had no physical contact with the operation and with the people involved.

MR PHOSA: Well that is - I'm asking these questions with that in mind and I have a reason I'll explain later, but it's not - you could not say - you cannot say to this Committee: "I wanted to ask but could not do so", that's not your evidence.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My evidence on this question is the following.  I had no form of contact with these people ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Can I assist here Mr Phosa, maybe to phrase the question differently.
	Mr Erasmus, when you colleagues reported to you that the abduction had taken place and that the two gentlemen Mr Mthimkhulu and Madaka were already elsewhere, was it part of the arrangement that they were going to come back to you to tell you that they've killed them or what has happened?  Where they going to come back to you subsequently?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: If I remember correctly, the people phoned me and I think I was in Grahamstown busy with some inspection when they phoned me and what was told to me was that they abducted the people and that they were on their way somewhere.  You can't on the phone discuss a matter like this in detail, you can't - they simply said they'd arrested them and they were on their way and after that I had no further contact with them.

ADV SANDI: Were they supposed to come back to you after carrying out this mission - according to the plan of action, were they supposed to come back to you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, they were supposed to report back to me as to whether the operation had been carried out.

ADV SANDI: Does that answer your question Mr Phosa?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me ask another one first.  Did you know where they were taking these people to?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I know now and it had been reported to me where the operation had been carried out, so I know now.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know then?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Honestly I cannot remember whether the - a place was mentioned to me at that stage but it wasn't impossible and I can't deny that.  I can't remember whether it was mentioned specifically.

ADV SANDI: Yes but Mr Erasmus, the abduction of people is not something that happens every day, if someone phones you and tells you that: "We have abducted so and so according to the plan and we're taking them to a certain place", surely it can't be easy to forget that ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: But he's never said - with respect, that they've told him that they were taking them to a specific place.  He said: "Over the telephone you can't discuss the matters, they told me they've arrested or they've abducted the people and they're on their way".

MR PHOSA: Was that your evidence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, it was reported to me that the people had already been picked up and that they were on their way.  If I think back to our discussions, we very possibly decided that because it was a covert operation there was no place where the operation could be carried out and that they had to be taken away.

MR PHOSA: Now, was it discussed between - amongst the three or more or you - is it three of you, as to how precisely the elimination was going to be done?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No.  I'm saying I took the decision and the operational part of it,  everything which preceded the operation was entrusted to my colleagues.  I had no part in that and there was no detailed discussion as to how it would take place.

MR PHOSA: I understand you and I think you're saying the method of elimination was theirs, not yours - it was their choice.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I agree.  I didn't take part in the detailed discussion of that so, yes.

MR PHOSA: And did they report to you on the occasion that they told you, "look they've been eliminated" - did they tell you how they'd done it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Because this was such an unpleasant task that they had to carry out, once again we did not discuss it in detail.  All that was said was that it was carried out and it was properly completed.

MR PHOSA: Now I have difficulty with that but I my be wrong.  Perhaps let's go a little more in detail, you may remember a bit more about it and tell us.  When did you get a report that these unfortunate young people had been eliminated?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: Or don't you remember?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I think it is the day after they had been eliminated - if I remember correctly.

MR PHOSA: Well maybe that's what I tried to suggest when I added that, in other words, it could have been on the day of elimination or the day after - you just can't say.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I believe that it was the day after the elimination.  I said that I had no contact with the people.

MR PHOSA: On the assumption that this an important occurrence, do you remember where you were when you received the report that these two young people don't exist anymore?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can recall that I was at home, if I recall correctly - things become hazy after a period of time but if I remember correctly, I was at home when the report was made to me.

MR PHOSA: Are you seriously telling this Committee that an occurrence of the nature - of the magnitude is not very clear in your mind simply where you were when you learnt that two young people had been removed, you can't remember that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying that the report that the operation had been completed successfully was made to me.

MR PHOSA: You can't say whether you were at home or not?