Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:   Since I started to have high blood at that time but I didn't know that it's high blood then.  I learnt when I went to the doctor that it's high blood.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you get any treatment for it?

WITNESS:   Yes, I got it.  I have treatment, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

WITNESS:   I take my prescription from the hospital monthly.

CHAIRPERSON: And I believe it is free.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   Now, lately, I'm not paying anything, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mama Theresia, this is very sad.  You lose a son and then you lose the life partner when you have also lost your son.  You should be together here now with your husband supporting each other sharing the pain of losing a son and he has also left you.  We feel for you and your family and we want to express our thanks and appreciation to you for having had courage as a woman to take up this case of your son even though the father has abandoned the family.  Now I'm going to ask some of my colleagues if they have got any questions they want to put to you.  Mr Mdu Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mrs Mosimane, I've got two questions which are going to help us to make proper follow up.  You mentioned that although a charge was laid nothing transpired.  To be specific, can I ask whether there was any inquest, court inquest?

WITNESS:   I don't know as to whether the inquest was done.

MR DLAMINI: Is it because all the records were kept by your ex- husband?

WITNESS:   He's the one who knows in depth where the beginning and end of what happened.

MR DLAMINI: My next question could perhaps fall in the same category where your husband is the key person but according to your statement or the documents which were submitted to us, it would appear that there was a claim against the then Minister of Law and Order.  May I find out about the outcome of that claim?

WITNESS:   In ended nowhere, Sir.  Then nothing happened since then.

MR DLAMINI: Do you know you ex-husband's whereabouts?  The address or any means that we could use to contact him?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know his address, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: Can you provide us with his address after the hearing.

WITNESS:   Yes, I'll do so.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, we would appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama Theresia, thank you very much for responding to the questions so well.  We have noted all what you've said.  We have noted your requests which we shall pass as a recommendation to the government.  We shall do all we can to get the information from Mr Mhlambi who was the lawyer to find out what happened with the case he had taken.  The only question which I forgot to ask is had Mr Mhlambi been paid by you for taking this case?  Do you know?

WITNESS:   I believe if we can get Mr Mosimane.  He's the one who would come up with the information.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we shall also try as Brother Mdu has said that we need to get the address where we can find your husband so that we can dig and get all the information even about where Mr Mhlambi is.  What happened?  Why is it that the case just stopped or why  it was never processed through.  Thank you very much.  God bless you.

WITNESS:   I thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: /EXCHANGE

CHAIRPERSON: EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS BETWEEN CHAIRMAN AND WITNESS

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know who is Oupa Mathebula.  And there's my other sister who is - Oupa Mathebula, can we know who she is?

OUPA MATHEBULA: This is Jafta Ntombela's mother.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she also going to speak or she's accompanying you?

OUPA MATHEBULA: She's accompany me as the parent to the deponent.

CHAIRPERSON: So she has asked you to tell the story?

OUPA MATHEBULA: Yes, but the main reason is that I was present when this thing happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you were the eye-witness.  Well, thank you also for the confidence which the mother of the deceased has on you.  We are very pleased that you have taken courage.  You see, may people, especially in our country, we are losing good stories because some people who were eye-witnesses don't want to come forward.  They just don't want to come forward.  But we thank you for having had courage of coming to tell us what you saw about your friend Masoleni.  And then Mdu Dlamini's going to lead you when you tell your story.  Thank you.

OUPA MATHEBULA: (Through Interpreter)

MR DLAMINI: Good day.

WITNESS:   Good day, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: Oupa, can you please for our own records start by telling us your relationship with the late Jabulani Ntombela?  According to your statement he's referred to as your bother but I can see two surnames.  Can you please explain to us?

WITNESS:   I would say this.  I grew up with Jafta.  When I said he was my brother I said  that because there was no one to come and testify here for him and you can see that his mother is already old.

MR DLAMINI: Can you give us the name of the mother?

WITNESS:   She is Martha Ntombela.

MR DLAMINI: Are they any members of the family, that is within the Ntombela family, that you know of?

WITNESS:   No, the two of us came here today.  There're only two of us.  There are present members but they are left back at home.

MR DLAMINI: Are these brothers and sisters to the last Jabulani Ntombela?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR DLAMINI: How many are they?

WITNESS:   They are two in number.  The two that are remaining at home.

MR DLAMINI: What are they doing?  Roughly how old are they?

WITNESS:   The two of them are working.  Steven was born in '57 and his sister was born in 1960.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you very much.  As Dr Mgojo, the Chairman of this Commission said earlier, that we really appreciate your help to the Ntombela family showing the relationship that existed between you and the deceased.  According to the statement Jafta was born on the 1st of October 1967.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR DLAMINI: And according to the statement you were all coming from school on the 17th of May 1986 round about 2.00pm.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: Would you tell us what exactly happened that afternoon and what were you doing on your way back from school and who came and what happened.  Can you tell us in as relaxed manner as possible?

WITNESS:   At that time it was during the unrest ... (intervention)

MR DLAMINI: Just a moment, Oupa.  You'll have to raise your  voice.  Unfortunately for you, you're competing with the rain now.  You'll have to raid your voice.

WITNESS:   We were coming back from school and it was during the time when there were riots when we arrived at a certain corner where we turned.  We were standing there talking with my friends.

MR DLAMINI: Just a moment again.  A similar request to my interpreter.  I seem to be missing him.  And again, Mr Interpreter, you're competing as well.  Thank you, Oupa.

WITNESS:   At the corner we were waiting, chatting to each other and I was preparing myself to go home and I saw this police van approaching.  I don't know where was he heading to but I could see who he was.  He stopped and he called Jafta.  When Jafta went to him he said, "I've been looking all over for you."  He took him into his van and I didn't got home.  I went straight to Jafta's mother to explain to her what happened and we quickly went to the police station to enquire as to his arrest.  Nobody gave us an answer.  They just ignored us.  They said we don't have the van you are describing and the person you are talking about, for your information is not at work today.  That was an explanation we got from the policemen we found at the police station.

MR DLAMINI: Oupa ... (inaudible) ... you mentioned that you could identify the police officer concerned.  Can you tell us his name?

WITNESS:   I know him as Masoleni.

MR DLAMINI: Was Masoleni his surname or first name or the nickname?

WITNESS:   I think it is his surname.

MR DLAMINI: When did you last see Masoleni?  Is he still around?