Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes we did and Duncan went to buy petrol from the garage.

MR WILLS: : Yes carry on.

MR HLONGWANE: : We ...

MR WILLS: : Yes carry on Mr Hlongwane.   Look I realise that you have to think about these incidents and that's good.   You must take the time to think to the best of your memory, what happened.  We are wanting to know to the best of your memory what happened.   So just please carry on and try and tell us if you can remember what happened in this incident.

MR HLONGWANE: : We were using Chief Motaba's car and Duncan was using his own car.   I was in charge of that operation and the boy who was supposed to identify the houses was Geda, Chief Motaba's driver.   We left and then he showed us around the area and had identified the houses for us.   The Nduna Sishe was opposed to IFP policies as was alleged by Chief Motaba and he was apparently advising people not to follow the orders issued by the Chief.   So we started burning the houses down.   On returning there a White boy came, in fact he was chasing us and we were followed by a van, a police van, into Chief Motaba's house.   When we had entered the house this White policeman followed us.   He went to the car and felt that it was warm and he enquired who was using the car, but Chief Motaba reprimanded him heavily and chased him away.   That man left and went back to Nyoni.   I left on the same night and returned to my place.

MR WILLS: : Yes, so that night you didn't actually kill this Nduna because he wasn't there.   Is that right?   You just burned houses down?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes we just burned houses.

CHAIRPERSON: So can you give an indication as to how many houses were burned down that night?

MR HLONGWANE: : There were two groups, one commanded by myself and one commanded by Duncan.   There were a lot of houses that were burned down.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say a lot, what are you talking about?   Three or four or more?

MR HLONGWANE: : About six to eight.

CHAIRPERSON: Six to eight?    Do you know if anybody died as a result of those attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: : No we didn't find anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, I see that it's eleven.   I don't know if you find this a convenient time to adjourn.   If not, we can carry on.

MR WILLS: : Yes it is a convenient time.   I will move onto the next incident.   Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take the tea adjournment.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.   Mr Wills you may proceed.

I H HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: : Thank you, Chairperson.    Mr Hlongwane there is just one thing I want to clear up and I'm sorry.   I must refer you back to page 187 `The Murder of ANC Member Gendinga'.   I just want you to clarify to this Committee why this person was killed, if you knew.

MR HLONGWANE: : He was killed because he was an ANC member.

MR WILLS: : Thank you.   Alright, let's return to where we were, that is at page 190 paragraph 153, the section `Attack on Cosatu Mandini Official'.   Have you got that bit?    Now here you talk about a person who you killed as a Mr Shandu.

MR HLONGWANE: : I remember.

MR WILLS: : Can you tell us the circumstances surrounding this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: : I didn't know Mr Shandu at the time.   He was a member of Cosatu which was known to be an ANC wing.   Shandu was troublesome to Woza because he recruited their members.   Chief Motaba then said that he should be killed.   Indeed Motaba provided me with one boy called ...(indistinct) Zulu and Shakes Mhlongo, as well as Panza.   We then proceeded to go kill him and we were using Chief Motaba's Cressida.   When we got to his place, I knocked and nobody answered.   I was then forced to break the window and we poured petrol into the house;  then he came out of the house and then I shot him.   After shooting him, cartridges were left on the scene of the crime.   I was using Chief Motaba's gun and their cartridges were left at the scene.   We then returned to our place.

MR WILLS: : What happened to Chief Motaba's firearm?

MR HLONGWANE: : If I remember correctly there was a member of the SAP who was Chief Motaba's friend.  His surname I do not remember.  This person apparently told Motaba that his gun was implicated in that murder.  I don't remember if Chief Motaba's - the person who informed Chief Motaba about his gun worked at Nyoni.   As I said I don't remember his surname.   I was informed that I had killed the right person indeed.   I think his surname might have been Hughes.

MR WILLS: : Yes, okay.   You say that at the bottom of that paragraph - you say that you remember Motaba telling you that the firearm was linked ballistically to the death of this person.   He said that he had arranged with some policeman at Nyoni to sort it out for him.   Indeed this firearm was returned to him sometime later.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes, in fact Motaba has the gun.

MR WILLS: : Nyoni to my understanding, is an SAP Police Station.  It's not a Kwa Zulu Police Station.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : And the Police Station at Silumbele is a Kwa Zulu Police Station and not an SAP station.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : You talk about, in paragraph 154 `Further Attacks on ANC Members in the Mandini area', and in this incident you refer to the attack on this one person by the name of Nleko.   Do you remember that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I do.

MR WILLS: : Please tell the Committee and members of the public what happened.

MR HLONGWANE: : We held meetings several times at Banda's place.  His house number was number 13.   We used to call Banda ...(indistinct).   We would hold meetings to discuss the killing of people at Mandini, at his house.   On one occasion, there was a discussion that Mr Ngleco - I have a picture of him in my mind.   I learned that he worked at SAPI.   I knew him and we knew his movements.   At that time Chief Motaba had fetched some boys from ...(indistinct).   Those boys were `AK's and Temba'.   Those were code names and were not their real names.   So AK and Temba were just code names given to these boys.   After the meeting, when I was supposed to go and monitor or investigate his house, I did so and on arrival, I saw a lot of boys coming out of the house and I asked something from them, and in the afternoon I met Chief Motaba and told him that I had met a large group of boys in that house.   I then told Chief Motaba, on the same day, that we would attack on that very same evening.   Chief Motaba came with...

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Mr Hlongwane, I think the translator was finding it very difficult to keep up with your pace.   Your pace is quite fast.   Mr Hlongwane, so that the interpretation can be transferred to English, we will also request you to speak loudly, that members of the public can hear you.   Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: : I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Wills, you may proceed.

MR WILLS: : Yes, thank you.   Mr Hlongwane, you were in the process of telling us what happened about the attack on Ngleco.   You say that you eventually went to his house with Temba and a person by the name of AK.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes.

MR WILLS: : And can you tell us what happened then?