Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR LAX: Mr Radebe, what person in their right mind would, after having undergone such a terrifying ordeal, go back to the very place where they had experienced such humiliation?  I mean, really, how could you not comprehend such a thing?  How could you believe such rumours?  That any normal person would find very, very difficult to believe.

JOHN RADEBE: I'm saying this because the one abductee, Nondlela, got married in there, got married there.  She got married.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that, but what we find most distressing with your evidence is that you are seeking to rely on the fact that Maletsatsi was hated by your community because she was instrumental in the kidnapping of your women comrades, and she didn't stop there, she would take them to the hostel and she would choose men to sleep with them, stripping these poor girls of their dignity.  Subjecting them to rape, and you believed these women when they came back to report that they had been subjected to this ordeal through the assistance of Maletsatsi.  You believe them, didn't you?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why then should you assault Makasas, when she had told you that she had been subjected to a traumatic experience of kidnapping, rape by a big group of hostel dwellers, through Maletsatsi's assistance, do you think she could then willingly go back and subject herself to being raped again?

JOHN RADEBE: Can I inform the Committee that it was upon our shoulders to investigate, because we went to her home, we asked them where she was, they told us that they did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: According to what Maletsatsi said, Makasas states in her affidavit, is that Gogo was also punished by a whole group of comrades, who were demanding an explanation about their whereabouts.  Are you aware of that?

JOHN RADEBE: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: According to Makasas, in her affidavit, she states that Gogo was amongst those girls who were severely punished by the comrades who demanded to know where they had disappeared to, and they had to give an explanation about the kidnapping and the terrible ordeal that they had been subjected to whilst they were at Kwamadala Hostel?

JOHN RADEBE: It came to my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not there?

JOHN RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know about that assault on these women who had been subjected to such an ordeal before you went to Makasas?

JOHN RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before you went to Makasas?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then have to go to Makasas?  What information did you want, if you knew what kind of information had already been extracted from the girls who had been kidnapped and gang raped by hostel dwellers?

JOHN RADEBE: Makasas came back to the township.  She told us, she informed us as to what was happening, and we accepted that.  We accepted the version of what happened to Kwamadala. Makasas spent a few weeks, and afterwards she vanished and we did not know her whereabouts.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe, I don't understand, because I won't venture into this point any further but, according to her evidence, she was called by comrades, she explained, they were punished, then you went to her house again, you assaulted her.  My question to you is that, was it common for SDU members to do this, to punish their own people, especially ladies?

JOHN RADEBE: It was not common for comrades to assault other comrades.

MR LAX: But you didn't seem to have any problem hitting her to try and get information out of her.

JOHN RADEBE: I agree.

MR LAX: So, was that common then?  Did you interrogate other people in the same way?

JOHN RADEBE: When comrades heard something about me as a member of the organisation, they had to come to me and ask me questions, and it depended on me whether I would be co-operative or not.

MR LAX: That wasn't the question.

JOHN RADEBE: What is the question sir, so that I can respond?

MR LAX: The question was, did you assault other members that you interrogated, other comrades that you interrogated?

JOHN RADEBE: Other comrades?

MR LAX: Precisely.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, it happened that a person who was a card carrying member of the ANC, and he had stolen from someone, he was seen stealing from someone.

MR LAX: It's a simple question.  Did you or did you not assault other comrades when you interrogated them?  Yes or no?  Don't give me a long story about ...(indistinct)

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.  So you did assault other comrades?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, did you punish other comrades?

JOHN RADEBE: To assault and to punish I do not get the difference.

MR LAX: Well the first point was that you assaulted them while you were interrogating them, while you were questioning them.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: The second issue, and why do you question somebody, to get information to decide whether or not they are guilty of something.  Isn't that so?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: And once you've decided they are guilty then you punish them, right?

JOHN RADEBE: We were not involved in the street committees.  When a criminal was troublesome we were then called.

MR LAX: Well you agreed, when the question was put to you earlier, that you were involved in punishing this woman, as she indicated in her statement.

JOHN RADEBE: I agree, yes.

MR LAX: So, once you interrogated people and you got the information, did you punish them?  Yes or no?

JOHN RADEBE: Can you repeat your question.

MR LAX: Once you interrogated people, and you got the information out of them, and you decided that you were guilty, that they were guilty, did you punish them?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, we would punish such a person.

MR LAX: What kind of punishment did you impose?  Give us some examples.

JOHN RADEBE: When a person stole from a member of the community, we would use sjamboks and lash that person.

MR LAX: What other kinds of punishment did you dispense?

JOHN RADEBE: The police stations did not accept cases at that time.

MR LAX: Don't tell me nonsense.  What other kind of punishments did you dish out?  I'm not interested in why you did it.  What did you do?

JOHN RADEBE: A person would be killed, sir, if necessary.  Would be shot.

MR LAX: So you would kill them, you would sjambok them, what else would you do to them?  Anything else, or was that it?

JOHN RADEBE: Tyres were available sir, to burn them.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Can I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe, did you know, did you have any information of who Maletsatsi's boyfriend was?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I did not.

MS THABETHE: You did not know that Ndondo, Dondo, was Maletsatsi's boyfriend?

JOHN RADEBE: I did not know.  I know a person that has a child with Maletsatsi, and I don't know him by name, I only know him by sight.

MS THABETHE: Do you know who Ndondo is?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Who is he?

JOHN RADEBE: One of the people who killed the community of Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe is it fair to put the question as you put it to him?  If he knew that Ndondo was Maletsatsi's boyfriend, without indicating what is contained in the statement with regard to how Maletsatsi befriended Ndondo.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I just wanted to ascertain whether he knew who Ndondo was and whether he knew that Ndondo and Maletsatsi were boyfriend and girlfriend.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't appear to me that they were much of a girlfriend and boyfriend when they were kidnapped.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair if you check in page 185 paragraph 4 of Gambu's statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm fully aware of that, and that's why I'm asking you, because according to the explanation given by Makasas they became girlfriend and boyfriend, if they ever did, on the day when they were abducted.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair can you allow me to proceed?  I hope I'll show why I'm asking, I'm asking him this.