Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1996-11-20

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: and speak the truth as is, and tell the people as to why they committed these deeds, who were they working with, who were they working for, and what were they working for.  We also hope that, as the members of the ANC, this is the only thing that will create peace in this place so that the people could be at peace with themselves.  We believe in peace as members of the ANC.  We've shown that several times.  We were the ones who initiated peace talks in 'Maritzburg, but what we always say is that we cannot build peace on top of lies.  We should first reveal the truth so that was have a basis or a foundation for peace, because we cannot shake hands whilst there are certain things we are sweeping under the carpet.  Lastly, in conclusion, we were requesting this Commission to try and assist us that there should be some certain mechanism by which these people who left their homes and became refugees should be brought back to their places, so that they could even go to the graves of their ancestors as well as their loved ones.  We should also take into consideration that there should be democracy in 'Maritzburg.  But what we want to say is that democracy, as far as politics are concerned, is the revealing of the truth so that we know who the perpetrators were.  This is what I have brought before this Commission today as being sent by my group, the African National Congress.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: We thank you, Mr Nzimande.  There is one question that I would like to ask which places us in a problem as the Truth Commission.  Those people who are listed here - as I am speaking to you I am glad, because you are a  member of the Parliament, you are not just an ordinary ANC

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: member.  Those perpetrators, together with their assistants, are still occupying very high positions in this region, especially in the police force.  Do you believe that they have stopped their deeds as we are striving for peace?  What makes me say this is you remember that even though there's this new government you know what happened in Shobashobane in Port Shepstone, and the very same people, the very same government is still keeping them in those high positions.  They are directly involved in the killings.  How are we going to broach the subject?  How do we deal with those people who are occupying high positions and being killers?  How sure are you that they won't continue with their deeds?

WITNESS:   I thank you very much for that question, Reverend.  It troubles us as members of the ANC that there are still people who were involved, or previously involved in criminal acts during the apartheid area, but these people are still occupying high positions.  What I wish to explain to this honourable Commission is that as we are the ANC members we are the government.  That is why we were the ones who tried to initiate some means or mechanisms so that the truth may come out.  That is why the Parliament passed this law which created this Commission.  Because what we were trying to avoid, as our President always says, is that people should not point a finger at us and say we are using our position to retaliate.  It is better that a certain mechanism be implemented that will be acceptable to each and every person, so that those who are not willing to come forward, as they have been given a chance to come and say whatever  they know, then they will have to be arrested.  The ANC

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Government is very much prepared that those who want to come before the Commission should come and testify, and those who think that they will run away from the whole matter we are very much prepared for them.  We are going to investigate them and take all the evidence that we can gather, and that they could be formally charged.  The second aspect, just adding to your question, is that the ANC Government formed investigation task units, and a lot of them are within the province of KwaZulu Natal.  We also have one in the 'Maritzburg region so that they can investigate.  We should not wait for the answers from the Commission, but we should also implement other means from the government sector that they should investigate these independently.  Now, in conclusion, even though I may not say or name that police station, you find that there might be 3 000 cases or more of attacks and killings, and the files have remained there in those cupboards and many years have lapsed without anything being done.  Now, we have got a report from these investigators that they have already started investigating some of the cases, and some of the people are already appearing in court as a result of these investigations.  Now, we want to do everything legitimately so that people will not blame us at the end.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Dr Nzimande, we've heard evidence of some counter attacks during this period by ANC, or by people from non-Inkatha areas, let's say, and you've partly answered the question, but I'd just like you to give it a direct answer.  It would obviously help us if - to the extent that some of those people involved in those counter  attacks may have been ANC or UDF members, would your party be willing to encourage those people to come forward and testify to us, so we could get a picture of what their motivations were?

WITNESS:   Thank you.  In an attempt of answering the question, first of all is that it won't be right to say there was a counter attack coming from ANC.  I will be putting that wrong.  I am prepared to say this with no fear at all, and also prepared to say this over and over again.  It has never happened before seeing ANC gathering together, going to attack the Inkatha areas.  I will stand for that.  We've never done it before.  All the time it has been Inkatha gathering and coming to attack the ANC areas.  If the community was being attacked what happened also still even during this Seven Day War, the community itself, because of the attacks, especially the youth, would gather and create committees to prevent this.  We also agreed when we were making an agreement of peace accord in the Parliament that those committees are allowed, and should take place all the time people were being attacked.  Besides this there is nothing that ANC has done, because there's no one who will just fold his arms when he is being attacked.  Those committees were trying to prevent this, and also trying to defend themselves when the Inkatha and the police were coming to attack.  One other thing I would like to make mention of is that if there are ANC members who would gather together and plan to launch an attack at Inkatha areas, that definitely is not according to the constitution of ANC.  That will obviously mean they were up to killing, and we've never had people in the past who would have those intentions.  If there were people with those intentions  instead of preventing and defending the communities, but plan and launch an attack like this Seven Day War attack,

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: definitely the law will have to take them into task.  We are prepared also, and we are behind these committees, because those committees were doing a good job, and we are not ashamed of them.  And maybe they should be called upon to explain as to how they used to operate the very committees of preventing and defending the communities in case the Commission is interested of that, because we take those people to be the community police, because the community police and the SAP was the direct opposite.  Thanks.