Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We tortured her, Mrs Matoti that is.  We first smashed her with an open hand since she was a woman, she was not ordered to strip her clothes but she was also suffocated in the canvas bag.  She collapsed or fainted.  After that we sat on the fence trying to wake her up.  We poured cold water because we wanted her to wake up but we were not successful, we tried to put some air.  Eventually she woke up and she sat at the office until she was in a good state of mind.  After that we did not take her to the Wellington because her clothes were wet and she was not going to be admitted there.  We decided to take her Gangaliso Police Cells.

MR STOFILE: You mentioned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Stofile, just on this while it's on my mind, why would Wellington accept somebody who was not a convicted person or alternatively an awaiting trial prisoner?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes they do admit them even now but an injured person cannot be admitted but they do take the awaiting trial prisoners but if a person claims to be sick ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I know they only take an awaiting trial prisoner is somebody who has got charges, against them, they
now waiting for a trial.  Here you've picked up somebody, no charges, you've probably got no intention of taking her to trial, so you say that Wellington were in the practise of accepting detainees, such detainees as well?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I think that was prearranged by the department because they would take the detainees provided they were in good health.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chairperson.  You mentioned we, who were you referring to when you said "we were assaulted" and you know, "we did this and this"?  Who were these "we"?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm referring to the security police in Norwood including myself.  I'm aware of that, yes.  Can you specify who were "we"?  Can you identify them?

MR STOFILE: Though I cannot remember all of them but I'll try those I can recall their names.

CHAIRPERSON: This is only in relation to the assault upon Ms Matoti.

MR STOFILE: It was myself, Sgt Gongwane, Const. Tyani, Const. Tremani, W/o Ndobele, Sgt Tchona.  In fact everybody who participated in this canvas bag because people would struggle trying to escape but if I can be given the chance to make a list and then submit it thereafter because I will just forget them if I call them in this manner.  Except Sergeant Makola who actually refused to assault people to such an extent that we painted him as an Imbimbi, that is why I can still remember his name because he would refuse because we think that he knew something.  I would like to be given a chance to draft this list.  I do not want to answer something that is not appropriate so that I can be asked questions why did I eliminate some names.  Therefore if I can be granted a chance.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've made it clear that this is an exhaustive list that you've given and you might have omitted, I'm sure Mr Stofile understands that and if you can think of any names later that may have participated in the assaults you can mention them and as you say you can even submit a list later.  Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: Chairperson, there's something which I want to clarify about something earlier, can I do that?
	You mentioned that everybody participated with the exception of Makola.  Do you mean everybody who was at the Norwood security offices, participated in assaulting Mrs Matoti except Mr Makola, Sgt Makola?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I mean the NCOs with the exception of Makola, the branch commander.

MR STOFILE: Who were NCOs, what do you mean by NCOs?

CHAIRPERSON: Non-commissioned officers, the highest of which is a warrant officer.  After warrant officer you get the commissioned officers, lieutenant and others.

MR STOFILE: At the time the assault took place can you tell us what first happened, you know, before he was assaulted and when he was assaulted.  Before he was assaulted, what happened?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Like what Sir?

MR STOFILE: Did you talk to her?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Before the assault he was questioned about the whereabouts of - she was questioned about her brother.  I cannot remember the name of the brother, Lucky was the name, Lucky Magenga.  She said she doesn't know him and then she was asked about the alleged visit and then she denied that.  We were looking for her brother actually.

MR STOFILE: You said somebody said to you Lucky comes to her from time to time?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, somebody mentioned that.

MR STOFILE: And I assume it's informer or informant or perhaps the informant you earlier mentioned?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It couldn't be an informer but an informant.

MR STOFILE: Did you not then take this reply with your informant that he is denying that she was there?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR STOFILE: In other words you decided to make a decision that she was lying?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes.

MR STOFILE: Who first assaulted her?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I cannot be certain about that but I also took part in the assault.

MR STOFILE: Let me remind you that you remember that Andile Gongwana first stood behind him at the corner, sounds like the door was behind her, she couldn't see anybody coming in or from behind.  Do you remember that, holding her straight, straight like this?  She doesn't turn her head?  Do you remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did request to be given a chance to relate the story then question thereafter.  Yes I do remember that, it's Gongwana was administering the back but I cannot remember well the part of holding her head, I cannot say it did not happen or it did.  That happened some time ago, Sir.

MR STOFILE: Is it not correct that thereafter you assaulted her?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean him individually, personally?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said we assaulted Mrs Matoti and I also took part, I did not deny that.  Yes I did assault her, I tortured her.

MR STOFILE: I'm trying to take it step by step.  Assaulting in the sense that you "klapped" and used fists to hit her hard?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I said I "klapped" her and I'm saying that for the second time now.

MR STOFILE: Who were the others who simultaneously were present assaulting after you had assaulted her, shortly after you had assaulted her.  Who then followed to assault her?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Those are the people that were in that list that I said I was going to make.  We were not standing in a line and we were not even recording the events.  I did explain that we behaved like hooligans and there was no order, it's very difficult for me to put that story logically.  I am not in a position to do that.

MR STOFILE: Do you recall that at some stage when she was crying you attempted to throttle and suffocate her so that it doesn't help to cry?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Mrs Matoti collapsed or fainted when the canvas bag was administered to her.  That's what worried us because she couldn't have cried during that period of fainting or collapsing.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question Mr Siqhola was do you remember at any stage that when Ms Matoti was beginning to cry you throttled her, tried to stop her crying by taking hold of her throat and stifling the cry by means of throttling her?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I do not remember that part.

MR STOFILE: Do you mean you want this Committee to believe that when this person was assaulted she just - she just was like a humble sheep, she just kept quiet?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say she didn't cry, he said he can't remember throttling her to stop her.  You can ask her whether she cried or screamed.

MR STOFILE: Did the victim cry when you were assaulting him together with the others?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes she did cry.