Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

UNKNOWN: (cont)
	Mr van Zyl, please turn to page 107 of bundle A, paragraph 48.  I want to start dealing with the Early Learning Centre.  Now in this paragraph what you do in general terms is that you mention certain information that you'd received and you then go on to say that you prepared a written submission setting out the facts and information you'd received, which you then handed on to Wouter Basson, on the 10th of August 1989, and that this document contained the motivation for the selection of the Kewtown youth and the Early Learning Centre as a suitable enemy target for the CCB, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Where did you see the date?

UNKNOWN: On page 109 in the middle, you say
"I presented all these facts to the Co-ordinator during a pre-study on approximately the 10th of August, on a written basis, after which the in-house was arranged."
...(transcriber's interpretation)
That is where the date comes from.

MR VAN ZYL: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  Now if you can go back to page 187, I'm going to break this down into sections.  You say
"In the meantime, on an instruction I gathered information over a period of about one month, amongst others by means of Isgak, in relation to the violent disruption of the September election in the Cape, especially the Coloured election."
Who gave you this order to gather information on the disruption of the September elections?

MR VAN ZYL: The Regional Manager, Staal.

UNKNOWN: Now we know you made your presentation on the 10th of August, do you have any idea when you received this instruction?  It must have been a month before the 10th of August.

MR VAN ZYL: I've said approximately a month beforehand.

UNKNOWN: What was said to you by Mr Burger?

MR VAN ZYL: It was just a part of the general instruction, if information could be gathered in my region, that could be processed by the CCB, that I would gather such information.  In other words, it wasn't a specific instruction that we had to gather information regarding the Early Learning Centre.  I did not know about the existence of the Early Learning Centre until it was identified to me by Isgak.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but we can infer from that sentence that you were asked to gather information concerning what was believed to be the violent disruption of the September elections, in other words do I assume correctly that Mr Burger had received information that a disruption of this nature was planned but he wanted you to find out more detail?

MR VAN ZYL: No, I do not see it in this context, but I can remember that what had happened is that I'd heard about the hall and I had mentioned it to Staal, and as a result thereof he asked me to gather more information about this specific site.

UNKNOWN: No, no, but that's something entirely different, because - what this paragraph goes on to say, you're given a general instruction to go and collect information in regard to - oh you say there are two elements, if I look at the next sentence.  Firstly in regard to the disruption of the election and then you go on to say
"The information was also in relation to a hall known as the Early Learning Centre in Athlone, that was used by prominent UDF and ANC activists.  Secret meetings were held there which discussed deeds of sabotage and terror and also planned against the State."
What those two sentences read together, suggest that Staal Burger knew about this when he came to give you the instruction.  Am I reading it incorrectly?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, that is a wrong conclusion.

UNKNOWN: Is the correct inference to be drawn, that point 1, Staal Burger comes to you and he says "Please go and get information about the elections and the violent disruption of those elections."  You then went to Isgak and you said "Isgak, go and get information for me."  As a consequence of that information you found out about the Early Learning Centre?

MR VAN ZYL: No, what happened is that I had received information from Isgak regarding the site and the organisations using the place, I mentioned it to Staal and he told me to gather more information in relation to the allegations that Isgak had made and this is what I'm referring you to.

UNKNOWN: So before Staal Burger gave you the instruction to collect information, you had gone to him and said "I already have information about the potential violent disruption of these elections", as a consequence of that he said to you "Go and get more information"?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: Now you say you received your information from inter alia Isgak, who were your further sources of information?

MR VAN ZYL: I would imagine that I also tested it, that I tested some of this information with Peaches, but I'm not sure and I do not want to give evidence to this as a fact.

UNKNOWN: Now you then say in general terms that you received information that there were acts of sabotage and terror which were being planned in this building, what acts of terror or sabotage had been planned there?

MR VAN ZYL: There were allegations that had been made by Isgak, that the bomb explosions, for example, at the post office and the police station at Athlone, had been planned at that specific hall.

UNKNOWN: You say - this is at the top of page 108
"It appeared that the UDF and ANC activists who had been under restricted regulations according to emergency regulations, were also under the name of Kewtown Youth Movement."
Now was the UDF restricted under the State of Emergency regulations at the time?

MR VAN ZYL: The ANC had been and I believe that the UDF was also, I'm not sure.

UNKNOWN: The ANC was probably a banned organisation.

MR VAN ZYL: And the UDF was an affiliate of the ANC and the Kewtown Youth Movement was in its turn also affiliated to the UDF.

UNKNOWN: But the simple question, was the UDF restricted under the emergency regulations, yes or no?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot say.

UNKNOWN: But you say in your sentence - oh, you're talking about the activists or the organisation?  Oh you're saying it's the activists who were restricted, who'd formed a new organisation.  Is that what the sentence says?
"It appeared that the UDF and the ANC activists who were under emergency regulation restrictions ..."
In other words, restricted individuals had formed a new organisation called the Kewtown youth, is that what the sentence means?

MR VAN ZYL: That is what is said there, but I think I would have wanted to say that it was the organisations as such, not only certain individuals.

UNKNOWN: You see - do I read this correctly to mean what you're really saying is that the Kewtown youth were not really the Kewtown youth at all, the Kewtown youth were the UDF/ANC, just another name.

MR VAN ZYL: That is information that we had at our disposal.

UNKNOWN: But even more than that, weren't you really saying that this was a cell of, what you would have called terrorists, militarily operative people, militarily trained people who were meeting there?

MR VAN ZYL: That is not what I am saying here, what I say here and what I gave evidence to is that we saw the Kewtown Youth Movement as a threat, as they, according to our information were affiliated to the UDF, which in its turn was affiliated to the ANC, which was a banned organisation at that stage.

UNKNOWN: No, but you say that the people who were meeting there in the first place, had in the past been involved in acts of terror.

MR VAN ZYL: We did have such information.

UNKNOWN: In the second place, you say that your information was that your information was that they were intending to commit further acts of terror in the future.

MR VAN ZYL: That was also conveyed to us.

UNKNOWN: In other words, your information was that the people who were meeting there were engaged in military activities.

MR VAN ZYL: In cases of sabotage of terror, that's correct.