Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: I don't know if counsel will agree, but the street behind us is rather wide here, I'd say about 40 to 50 paces.  Would you agree with that?  From where he's sitting I would say it's about 50 paces.  It can be checked later but we can work on that at this stage.

MR MNQANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I cannot say yes or no about that.

MR MNQANDI: When you noticed him running, was he running towards you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I heard footsteps before seeing him and after that he was coming towards my direction.  I think that he was not aware of which direction I was.  I went down and he was coming towards the direction that I was in.  I can say that he was coming towards my direction but on the side.

MR MNQANDI: When you fired your first shot, how far was he from you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I think that he was here to that flag or that speaker there next to the flag.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems like it's about 25 paces that the applicant points out.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, I would accept that, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Yes, Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: And were you able to determine where you had hit the deceased?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I was able to do so.

MR MNQANDI: How was it possible that you were able to determine that in the light of the fact that it was dark in the area?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was during the night, he was running away, he didn't know which direction I was so I took my time and I could see that it was him and he was running away, so I took my time watching him and I then shot at him when I realised that he was nearer, but he was going to the other direction.

MR MNQANDI: What type of firearm were you using?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: 7.65mm, the pistol.

MR MNQANDI: And you have given evidence here that at a point in time it can issue two bullets at the same time, can you explain this to me, I'm not familiar with the use of guns.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It happens that when you were aiming for a long time and you had cocked your weapon and your hand - your finger would not be fast to pull the trigger, three or four bullets can come out at the same time.  So it will only stop after you remove your finger from the trigger.  As long as you are still holding the trigger, all the bullets can come out at the same time.

MR MNQANDI: And I take it this would be from one aim, that is you would be aiming at one point on the victim at the time.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Is it possible that the bullets would hit the target at different places in such an instance?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, the bullet would not hit the same place, they might hit different places.

MR MNQANDI: And when you fired at the deceased you say he was running.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, he was running but I was not shooting at him because of the fact that he was running.

MR MNQANDI: You were shooting at him because you had orders to kill him.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And when you fired at him, the two shots that hit him, is it not peculiar that these shots which were fired at a person who was running were able to hit him at points that are very near to each other?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I don't know how they hit him because I didn't go back to him to see where I had hit him, but I was sure that I had hit him and I was sure that I had finished the job, so I left.

MR MNQANDI: I find it strange Mr Gumengu, that at night you were so sure that you had killed the deceased without even going to ascertain that fact, why were you so sure?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The reason for that is that the way we practise when we are shooting during the day or at night and the way we rate our shooting, so there was no need for me to go and check because I was sure that the bullet had hit the place that I wanted it to hit and because I was using the 7.65 and it was at night and my mission was not accomplished, that surprised me, but I was sure because of my training and the way we rated, I was sure that I had done the job, so there was no need for me to go back to him.  But because it was a 7.65, the distance and the power it was not able to do what I had thought it would do.

MR MNQANDI: I put it to you Mr Gumengu, that in fact what you are telling us is not what really happened.  In fact, when you hit the deceased he was lying down and you left him for dead because you had ascertained that you had hit him on the day in question.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: If I had went to see or to check him and if I had realised that he had not died, for sure I would have hit him so that he can die.  So I didn't go to him, I left him lying down there without checking, but I was sure of the shot that I had fired.  If I had went back to him I would have realised that he was not dead and then I would shoot at him again.  So there was no need for that because I was sure that I had hit him.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Mnqandi, if I could just ask a question on this point.
	Mr Gumengu, why didn't you at that stage - okay, you've now shot Mr Zokwe, why didn't you go and get a police photographer and get other policemen in to remove the body like you explained when he eventually was killed?  You went great efforts to get photographers to try to get the body, the ambulance people, hospital people to the body, why didn't you behave in the same way out at the quarry there after you had shot him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I wouldn't be able to do that because I was told that he must die and he must be found dead and they must not know who had killed him.  So I wouldn't be able to go call the police or the ambulance because my shooting at him was not the fact that he was escaping, but I was doing as I was instructed, so I would not have been able to call the ambulance or the police. 	The reason why I did all these things at the second incident is because that didn't happen per instruction, what happened was something that was not expected.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, Mr Gumengu, what you are saying is exactly what is making me not believe your story.  You have instructions to kill a person, you don't ascertain whether that is done, you just leave him without ascertaining so and this suggests to me that what you are telling us is not truth.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: What I'm saying is the truth because if I had gone back to him and found out that he was not dead, I would be forced to kill him, but because I was sure of myself I was sure that I had hit him and he was dead.  But because of the calibre of the firearm, the 7.65, and the distance, I think that is why he had survived, but I was sure that I had hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: But just on that point, Mr Gumengu, even if you were sure that you hit him, how did you know that you had hit him in a spot on the body that would have proved to be fatal?  I mean he might have fallen if you'd hit him on the knee, or if you hit him in the ribs with a non-fatal shot he could have fallen.  The mere fact that you shot and he fall doesn't mean, I'm sure even to the best hunter, that the target was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: He could even have slipped and fell.  You might have missed him.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That would not have happened, I was sure of my aiming and when you had hit the target at any time, you could feel it in your blood that you had hit the target.  You would not determine that by him falling, you would know that you had hit him and you would know where you had hit him.  Even if the people can hit now you would know where you had hit that person, so there's no reason for you not to know in which spot or in which part of the body you had hit him and I was sure that I had hit him and I was sure where I had hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he coming in your direction as he was running?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, he was coming towards my direction but he was not aware that I was in that direction.