Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The paragraph that you've drawn attention to where it appears, 2.9 page 2, tells me something is fishy.  Why would they say this unknown person, don't take interest in him?  Why would they say that, when my great, great, grand cousin would be raided in Port Shepstone because in some way they thought they were connected to me.  Somebody who walked into my house on business would be followed because they would say, in case this leads to something.  Now Jabo features here at the residence, a block of flats and where Jabo rented those flats and I would say the way they were paranoid, is this flat owner some way connected and until they have done an investigation to satisfy themselves that he has no clandestine links with the tenants, they wouldn't write him off.  Now, if you look at the next one ...(intervention).

MR VISSER: Well, I'll come to that, please, but is that your explanation as far as Jabo is concerned?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: So far you've given me summaries and I therefore have to challenge your summaries.

MR VISSER: No, no, no, I'll come to the next one.  Is that your explanation as far as Jabo is concerned?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That's Jabo as a question mark.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So, you say the fact that Zandile visited flat number 7, which was rented by a black lady called Jabo, who is not identified, should have made her of security interest in your book?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, the way they had behaved themselves always.

MR VISSER: Alright, let's come to the next name, Zondi.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, let's come to Lucky.

MR VISSER: No, no, I'll come to Lucky.  Mr ...please I'm doing the questioning.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But you haven't asked me a question yet.

MR VISSER: Let's come to Zondi I say.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, I need protection.  No question is being put to me and I'm constantly being told, when facts are being put to me which I challenge, if it is a summary and I don't agree with the summary, I thought I must stop there and say "I don't agree with the summary."

MR VISSER: Can we now come to Zondi?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser, you are putting this as proof of the fact that this is why they used this "Nie van veiligheids belang".

MR VISSER: The fact that she wasn't of security interest.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you are now saying - now we dealt with that.

MR VISSER: No, no, no, I'm coming to that Mr Chairman.  I'm dealing now with Zondi.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I understood you said you've dealt with it.

MR VISSER: I will deal with Lucky, very specifically.  I want to now deal with Zondi.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Okay.

MR VISSER: And you say that your inference is that Zondi, by these words "Nie van Veiligheids belang" next to his name, was being protected by the police.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I'm saying, to answer that question, just as you've patiently taken me through a paragraph where Lucky appears and Jabo appears, do me a favour, take me to the paragraph where Zondi appears.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 2.13 at page 3.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Paragraph 2.13 page so-and-so, page 3?

MR VISSER: Can I read it to you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Hold on, I can read, but I don't see - oh yes, I see Zondi.  Right.  Good, got it.

MR VISSER: Well I want to read it to you and this will have to be translated
"Zakhele told him, PN 666, to warn Lucky to withdraw from the Pietermaritzburg area since unknown number of MK members would be sent to that area to, in respect of the activities aimed at prominent Inkatha leaders and specifically one Zondi to carry out these activities.  A start will also be made with the elimination of other Inkatha members from the lowest level to hierarchy, Gatsha Buthelezi as the last target."
Now, why do you say the police wanted to protect Zondi, at page 11?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I said, Chairperson, that the use of the words "Nie van veiligheids belang" is a technique that they would use, amongst others, to protect an agent.  Here I would expect Zondi to be of great interest for the police to go and protect from kidnapping and that they would not write not of security interest.  You've now got information, if it is correct that MK people want to kidnap Zondi, surely it is your duty as police people to now make him of security interest to protect him from being kidnapped unless you are saying because he was a black man, was he relevant to the police?

MR VISSER: Oh Mr Maharaj, let's leave racial prejudices out of this Mr Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: This is not a prejudice, this is a statement of fact because you've shown me a classification of 1, 2, 3 and 4.  I didn't put that classification, you put it to me.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, your evidence is that "not of security interest" would have been placed next to a name so that other security branch members would not target that person.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I have just said not exclusively as a technique.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It was one of the possible techniques that they could have used.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  You see I'm already going to suggest to you that this document does not support the inference which you wish the Committee...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Well if you would now turn to Lucky you will see what happens.

MR VISSER: Let's go to Lucky.  Alright.  Lucky we know was an informer, PN 664.  That we know from page 1, not so?  Paragraph 2.1.  At page 11, as you already ...(intervention).

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: How does that come from paragraph 2.1?

MR VISSER: I'm sorry.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You say there you know, how does paragraph 2.1 show that Lucky is PN 664.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, Mr Maharaj, may I refer you page 10?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Oh, that one I agree with.

MR VISSER: May I refer you to page 10?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That one I agree.

MR VISSER: The bottom of page 10, paragraph 37.8 says
"Bongani" (B-O-N-G-A-N-I) is the operation MK name in the Republic of South Africa of informer PN 664"
and a little higher up that page, paragraph 37.1 says:
"Lucky is identical to informer PN 664."

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That's right.

MR VISSER: And now it is stated who he was.  He is an askari.  So, now with all due respect Mr Maharaj, what would have been the point of Botha or Wasserman or anyone else to try to conceal that evidence from Security Headquarters?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Let me tell you what would be the interest.  One, they would reveal their askaris to each other because those are the people they would use to track down and to kill.  Now those were, had become hired killers and trackers.  You would make the askaris available as the evidence shows over the killing of Charles Ndaba and their arrest, it was an askari and he's identified.  You have told us they had 9 askaris as professionals available to any division when they needed them.  The askari is a paid staff member.  You would only be interested in hiding his identity from the ANC and precisely because of the unprofessional way these reports were written, when I got them I was able to inform Lusaka that MK Lucky, who was operating in an area of Natal, whom we thought was still our man, is no longer our man and that was very useful to us, but within your establishment the statement "not of security interest" says, "general category, don't worry about him, started off informer, he's and agent but in fact he's and askari".  Nothing to hide there amongst your own men.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, askaris were registered with Head Office, would you accept that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You know that, I don't know.