Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR PATEL: Did you report - did you approve the assassination of Mr Advice Gwala?

J A MKHWANAZI: After Advice Gwala's death, Mzwandile came to me and he reported the matter, he said to me he shot Advice Gwala.  He gave me the reasons why Advice Gwala was shot.
	After getting those reasons I approved and JJ Mabena came before to me and he also complained about Advice Gwala and he gave some information concerning Mr Gwala's involvement.  That is how I approved the killing.

MR PATEL: If I understand your evidence correctly then you never gave the instruction but you approved after the deed, would that be correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, the only instruction that I gave to Mzwandile was that he has got to stabilise the situation in Secunda.  There was no specific instruction that was given to him to go and kill Advice Gwala but that was part of the instructions to actually stabilise the situation prevailing at the time.

MR PATEL: I'm sorry to jump around like this but the AK47 and Makaroff pistol, for what reason did you get it, for what purpose?

J A MKHWANAZI: There was a war situation at Ermelo and the community of Ermelo was unarmed and there was no defence.  We took the arms because we wanted to protect the community of Ermelo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.  On the self-defence units, did you actively participate in their role or what exactly was the role that you played, with regard to the self-defence units?

J A MKHWANAZI: I gave Mzwandile the instruction to establish the self-defence units.  I didn't want to take part because of security reasons.  I was preventing a situation whereby I would be arrested and that would have led to other people being arrested, that is why I left all the responsibility to Mzwandile, strictly for security reasons.

MR PATEL: Mr Mkhwanazi, have you been convicted for any of the offences for which you claim amnesty?

J A MKHWANAZI: No.

MR PATEL: Now if you'll just turn, in the bundle before you if you will turn to pages 75 to 78, that is a supplementary statement made by yourself.  Have you read this statement?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I did, with my legal
representative.

MR PATEL: Do you confirm that the signature which now appears on page 78 is your signature?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR PATEL: Do you confirm the correctness of the contents of the statement?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR PATEL: I have not further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, have you got any questions?

MR BLACK: Yes, I have a few.  I just want to clarify some issues.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, if you page to page 13 of Volume 1, Mr Mndebele testified as to the historical background and he said, although it doesn't necessarily have to be the exact words but he more or less summed up, and he said the general instruction which was given to Gushu appears more or less as stated in paragraph 16.1 and 16.2, namely that he was to recruit the assistance from SDU's in the local community and 16.2 says he was to obtain arms and ammunition and to finance these operations from whatever sources possible, including armed robbery.  Is that the gist of the general instruction which you gave to Mr Gushu?

J A MKHWANAZI: I gave him the instruction that he must establish the SDU's and arm them.  I left it in his hands as to how to arm those self-defence units as a soldier, but at the end of the day the self-defence units were expected to be armed.

MR BLACK: Now Mr Mkhwanazi, you say that you did train Mr Gushu, gave him a refresher course in military training at Nelspruit.  After that course were you satisfied that he was a disciplined soldier and that he would carry out the mandate which you gave him?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I was satisfied.

MR BLACK: You've heard the evidence of Mr Gushu, are you satisfied that those, that he did in fact carry out the mandate and that the events in respect of which he seeks amnesty fell within that mandate which you gave him?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: If at any stage either Mr Gushu or any one of the members of the SDU's which he established went outside that mandate which you had conveyed to him as a consequence of the decision made the committee, if they had gone outside that mandate would they have in fact been called in and disciplined?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that was possible.  Although I was actually dealing with Mzwandile directly, if the members of his self-defence unit did something wrong I was able to call a person who was responsible for those SDU's to account for that.  It would be very difficult because I didn't know the self-defence unit members personally.

MR BLACK: You've heard the evidence - one of the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty is as I gather, is that the, you are also asking for any amnesty in respect of any actions which may have been done by members of a self-defence unit set up by Mr Gushu as a consequence of your instructions to establish such self-defence units?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct because I was the one who instructed Mzwandile to establish the self-defence units.

MR BLACK: So I gather that you're accepting the responsibility for the actions of Mr Gushu and the consequences of the establishment of SDU's provided that any actions committed by the SDU's fell within the mandate, you're accepting the overall responsibility?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: Now there's just one specific issue, I don't know if you have any personal knowledge of it, Mr Khaba testified that he was a member of an SDU established by Mr Gushu and he says that as a member of the SDU he killed Mr Obed Nhlabathi in hospital, are you aware of that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Bongani was not directly involved with me.  I didn't even know that he was a member of the SDU.  I can't comment on that basis.

MR BLACK: Now were there any actions committed by Mr Gushu or by any members of the SDU's which he established which fell outside the mandate which you'd given to Mr Gushu and that you found necessary to call in Mr Gushu and reprimand him about it or discipline him?

J A MKHWANAZI: Not as far as I know.

MR BLACK: And the are which Mr Gushu, Mzwandile was given authority to try and stabilise and normalise, was that the Piet Retief, Secunda, Ermelo and Du Wawel, Duval area?  Dawel area, sorry.

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: And when you meant: "stabilise a situation", did that include that he was authorised to kill any instigators of the violence or any enemies in those areas?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

MR HATTINGH: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Sir.
	Sir, you were trained by MK and you said that you returned to the country, that is now the Republic of South Africa, when did you return?

J A MKHWANAZI: ...[no English translation]

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you go to then?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was trained in Angola.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, but when you came into the country, where did you go then?

J A MKHWANAZI: I left the country in 1985, I trained in Angola, Yugoslavia and the former Soviet Union.  I came back in 1989.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you returned from your training, where did you go to then in South Africa?

J A MKHWANAZI: My contact was in Piet Retief so I went to Motsamai ...[indistinct] in Piet Retief.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then remain there or did you go to Ermelo?

J A MKHWANAZI: I stayed for quite a while, I think it was about six months although I'm not positive as to the length of time.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then go to Ermelo?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then receive any instructions of the ANC when you came into the country to come and do something here?