Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR RAMALIGELA: Oh yes, I can recall that.  We made him to stand on his head when were at Masisi, again we asked him to do the frog-jumping, but this is exactly what I instructed him to do.

MR MEYER: Did you use electric shock treatment on him?

MR RAMALIGELA: Oh yes.

MR MEYER: And the method of the water and the hood over his head?

MR RAMALIGELA: That method too.

MR MEYER: And the method where you put the broom-sticks through the cuff's, did you use that on Dean Farisani?

MR RAMALIGELA: Only once and the stick just got broken and we couldn't continue with this kind of method.

MR MEYER: Then if we can move on to the next point....

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Meyer just before you move on, do you know whether Dean Farisani was taken for medical treatment?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I heard about that.  The fact that he was taken ...(indistinct) hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: And did General Ramushwana speak to you at all in regard to Dean Farisani, to say 'lay off him' or 'hold back on him, don't hurt him'?

MR RAMALIGELA: He said that after he had already been taken to the hospital, we were told that no we should not continue with the deed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Flowing from that, during your interrogation of Mr Farisani, did you make Mr Ramushwana aware of the methods you were applying, during your interrogation?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, we could not communicate that to him, because it was our own discretion.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You did not discuss the methods you were using on any of the suspects with your superiors.

MR RAMALIGELA: I can't recall telling him exactly as to how we were dealing with the suspects.  However what I knew is that he wouldn't agree to that kind of methodology.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You say he would have agreed had he know.

MR RAMALIGELA: I can't tell exactly if he will agree but I think with regard to our etiquette if one is doing such a false or wrong etiquette, one wouldn't really consult a senior.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, while you were torturing any of these three victims, did the General enter the office where you were doing the torturing at all?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, he will frequently come around as we're interrogating.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you remember what he saw?  Can you remember what you were doing at the times when he was present?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, the office, there were windows and we would be able to see that he was coming and then we could just suspend what we were doing.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, you may continue.

MR MEYER: Thank you.  If we can move then on to Mr Ravele.  You also said in your statement that he was assaulted in the same manner as Mr Posiwa.  Can you expand on that, what methods did you use on him?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to Mr Ravele, there was no difference up to the time when we went to his place.  With regard to the matters, we use the same ideology of threatening just to hit him we're using our bare hands and fist, and we also hanged him using some kind irons and broom-stick.  With regard to electrifying shock we couldn't use in Mr Ravele's case because he confessed immediately and he took us to the place where there was an AK47.  We were able to dig it up.

MR MEYER: Did you in fact find an AK47?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, he was able and there were bullets as well and also magazines for missiles.

MR MEYER: Where did you find that?

MR RAMALIGELA: Right in his own house, it was still a new house.  He was able to dig and then extract those things.

MR MEYER: Can you remember in the case of Mr Ravele you said that he co-operated immediately.  How long were you busy with him before he gave his co-operation?  Can you remember if, if you can't remember just say so.

MR RAMALIGELA: What I can recall that he said to us, after we had beaten him, but he said he didn't want to be tortured continuously, it is better for him to be taken to the place where there were, this other ammunition or gun.  Then I arranged with the mobile police, and we went to the mountain.  We found some 'doppies' of the hand grenade, while he did say that no, these things were no longer there, they could have been taken.  From there we took him back and just charge him from the charge, the court.  That was on the basis of him being found in possession of those AK47's just to help the freedom fighters.

MR MEYER: Okay, let's move on then to Mr Chikororo.  You said in your statement that you never assaulted him.  Is that in fact so?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well it is true I didn't really charged Mr Mamela and Mr Chikororo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I find out if you never charged Mr Chikororo and Mr Mamela, why you even mentioned them in your application?  Why was there need for you to say something about them?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, let me say with regard to Dean Farisani, Mr Mamela, Mr Chikororo and Mr Poswana.  They were not charged.  I am quite sure that Mr Ramushwana did explain that these people had already been beaten and we could see taking them to court, it was going to really disappoint us.  But I don't think really, I think I might have forgotten that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  When after the police station had been bombed, the people you were trying to find, to arrest, were they only the people who were directly involved in the attack, in other words, the people who shot the firearms and shot rockets etc. or were you also trying to find anyone who was involved?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well we were looking for people who helped the in bombers and those who bombed.  We were looking for both those kind of categories.

MR MEYER: What was your instructions from your seniors with regard to the solving, if I can call it that, of this attack on the police station.

MR RAMALIGELA: The instruction came, well I didn't really have a direct access to the President, that it came directly from Mr Ramushwana that you know people wanted these people to be brought to books.  The old man referring to the late President Mr Mpepu.

MR MEYER: You said in your statement in paragraph 42 you mentioned that, 'I can safely say that no person was ever seriously assaulted, no person ever had serious wounds inflicted or even medical treatment.'  Could you just explain to us why you made such an allegation in that statement?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well these information that is in my statement, well I couldn't say much on the people who were taken to the hospital or who had, however today after I have submitted a statement I realised that I lied, it is better for me today before this committee just to say exactly what I did on these people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you have to say that in your application form knowing that you are applying for amnesty and the primary condition for satisfying the amnesty, the granting of amnesty is that you must tell the truth.  Why did you think that you have not seriously assaulted the people when you knew then, that you had assaulted them in the manner that you have described to this committee, which cannot be described as just serious, I mean minor injuries that was sustained by the victims which were under your hands.

MR RAMALIGELA: Chairperson, I think on my own I just want to again apologise for having omitted the few things in my statement.  However what I want to say now even if it is not written in the statement is exactly how I did it, and that is why I am apologising and I am sorry for not having mentioned it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I know.  I want to know why, why did you do that knowing that telling the truth of your participation in these assaults were important.  Why did you do that?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I didn't do it deliberately.  I just forgot about it and also, you know it happened a long time ago.  However it came subsequently as I was thinking that I had to mention everything.