Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

JIMMY MBANE: Rasta came later in possession with an AK rifle.  I was sitting with these four.  We fixed his AK for him and then he assisted us with the training.  The rest of the group joined thereafter, but I had already started with the four with the assistance of Rasta.

MR BOOYENS: Dealing with this AK47 of Rasta that would fire only single shots, how did you fix it?

JIMMY MBANE: Eric Maluleka fixed it because he was an expert in firearms and he was an instructor in firearms in exile.

MR BOOYENS: : Now let us then just return.  The police have actually told you, at least on one of your versions that you must train these completely untrained people, for what purpose did you - why did they want them trained?

JIMMY MBANE: You know what, I'm requesting you not to come and waste time here. As to why these people should be trained - I do not know. ....(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please answer the question!

JIMMY MBANE: I was given instructions to train them as to what was the reason thereof, I'm not aware.

MR BOOYENS: You were never told you must train them and that get them to do this or get them to do that, it was just train them?  Is that seriously what you are suggesting, Mr Mbane.

JIMMY MBANE: I was told to train them and that was exactly what I did.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, you were, Mr de Kock was your commanding officer when this incident occurred, is this correct?

JIMMY MBANE: We left de Kock at Vlakplaas.  He knew nothing, he just said that we are needed down in Cape Town and that's all.  He arrived later.

MR BOOYENS: What I want to know is simply the following.  You've killed police informers on your own version.  Did you inform Mr de Kock of that on your return to Pretoria?

JIMMY MBANE: He must have read that in my report.  But that I reported to Mr Bellingan under whose command I was.

MR BOOYENS: Did you write a report in which you reported that you actually killed these people, these informers?

JIMMY MBANE: I can't remember that because it happened quite a long time ago.

MR BOOYENS: But you just now said that he must have read it in your report so that's why I asked you the question.

JIMMY MBANE: I reported to my commander.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane did you say Mr de Kock must have read it in your report or didn't you say it?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't remember.

MR BOOYENS: Well everybody else does.  In any case let's leave that.
	Did you report to your commanding officer Mr de Kock that you were given the unusual instruction here of training your enemies up to a level of efficiency where they were good enough to make an attack upon a police vehicle?

JIMMY MBANE: I never reported that because I had to follow some lines, some hierarchy, I had command to somebody else before him - I had to report to somebody else before him.

MR BOOYENS: But this was unusual, that you were expected to train you enemies in a manner of speaking.  You didn't think that that was so, did you think that was out of the ordinary?  Let me ask you that first of all.

JIMMY MBANE: It was unusual but I just followed instructions.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but what I want to know - you saw Mr de Kock, your commanding officer before the attack, why didn't you say to him there's something funny going on here.  We have now been told that we must take people that have no training and to train them.  We don't know for what purpose.  I'm worried about this.  I'm training my enemy.  The people that may shoot me tomorrow.  You didn't discuss that with him?

JIMMY MBANE: I never discussed this with de Kock because Bellingan and Liebenberg were the ones to tell him that not me.

MR BOOYENS: You possessed a passport, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: I had passports and I had many passports.

MR BOOYENS: Yes some of them I'm talking about a genuine passport I presume in your own name and a lot of false passports.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I had them.

MR BOOYENS: And the eight years you were stationed at Vlakplaas where did you stay?  I don't want a specific address don't worry, but whereabouts did you stay in the years that you were stationed at Vlakplaas?

JIMMY MBANE: I cannot give you an answer to that because I'm still residing in that same place.

MR BOOYENS: That's why I said, I didn't ask you for an address.  I'm talking about - well you do not stay at Vlakplaas now anymore, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: If I can tell you that place it would be easy for you to find out the exact address because it's quite a small area.

MR BOOYENS: You know I get the distinct impression that you do not want to answer my questions.  I did not ask you for the address, forget about the area, you did not stay at Vlakplaas, you still stay at the same place where you used to stay in the days when you were stationed at Vlakplaas, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I'm still residing in that place and it's a small area.  By revealing the area, it will be very easy for you to find me because I'm known there.  It's a small town and it will be very easy for me to find, therefore I'll rather not disclose that.  Not that I'm not co-operating.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane, I think we should not also do what you were a little bit scared of, that Mr Booyens was doing and that is to play games and to waste time.  Now you have given us a sworn statement dated August 1996 in which you disclose your address and this document is now a public document and these are public proceedings, so please just answer the question.  What counsel wants to know is whether you are still staying in the same township that you stayed at whilst you were at Vlakplaas and this is a matter of public record.

JIMMY MBANE: I beg you pardon your honour, I'm still residing in the two addresses that I have written down. I've got two houses.

MR BOOYENS: What I want to know, you had passports, you told us earlier in your evidence-in-chief that you were actually under duress at Vlakplaas;  you hated it, you felt it was wrong.  You must have had leave during this eight years at some times, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: Your honour, if they can go and fetch somebody from London, it would be very easy for them to come and grab me from Zimbabwe.

MR BOOYENS: Do you really think - so very well you've anticipated the answer now.  So are you suggesting that you couldn't leave the country because you thought they would come and grab you?  Do you think you were that important, Mr Mbane?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: If the Commission would just bear with me Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient stage to take a short adjournment.  My brother, Miller, has to go to hospital and wants to talk to me first.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I regret to say that Judge Miller has had to go to hospital and Mrs Khampepe has informed me that she can no longer continue, she is suffering from acute headache and cannot concentrate any further.  I've had an opportunity of making this known to counsel and I understand that they and their clients are all prepared to continue on the basis that two of us will be present during the balance of this hearing.  The evidence will be transcribed and considered by all four  of us before a decision is arrived at.  Could counsel please confirm if that is so?

MR B WILLIAMS: Your worship, on behalf of the families we confirm that that is our position.

MR BOOYENS: On behalf of the applicant, Mr Bellingan, I confirm that we are quite satisfied with that ruling Mr Chairman.

MR P WILLIAMS: We are satisfied Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the second applicant.

UNKNOWN: Right, on behalf of Mr de Kock and I confirm that we are happy with the arrangement.

MR MOSES: On behalf of the witness we are satisfied with that arrangement Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now continue.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions for the witness, there is just one aspect.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS