Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee where was the IFP concentrated as opposed to the ANC supporters?  That is maybe let me put a leading question to you, would you say that the IFP supporters and members were in the majority in the township or in the hostels?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: There are members of the IFP who were in the townships, but they were not exposing themselves that they were members of the IFP.
	Their stronghold was in the hostel.  In the location, in the townships, there are some members of IFP, although they did not expose their identity.

MR MHLABA: Before this incident, did you or any of your fellow members of the liberation movement, have certain dealings with either Patricia Mtshwene or Gladness Mfelasi?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: May you please repeat your question, I am not able to follow?

MR MHLABA: Before the day of this incident, can you explain whether Gladness Mfelasi and or Patricia Mtshwene had certain dealings with your political organisation, or within the political organisation?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: They had certain dealings.  One I remember well, in funerals in 1992, funerals of the people who were killed by the hitsquads and those who were killed by the IFP, I used to see them during those funerals.
	The person that I used to see at those funerals was Gladness Mfelasi.

MR MHLABA: Other than seeing them at the funerals, how did you come to know Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi, did you know them?  Explain how you came to know each one of them.
	My question was Mr Motahung, did you before this incident and except for seeing them at the funerals, did you know this Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi, and if that is the case, I want you to explain for how long did you know them, and how.

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: I knew them.  While I was still attending school, I used to see them during the athletics meetings at the stadium.  That is when I was still at the secondary school.

MR MHLABA: Did anyone of them participate in any of the structures which you were an affiliate to?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: They never participated, they were just supporters, because I used to see them only at the ANC funerals.

MR MHLABA: Are you saying ANC funerals or IFP funerals?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: I used to see them at ANC funerals.  I used to see them at funerals of the ANC members, and thereafter I saw them at the funeral of one of the members of the IFP.

MR MHLABA: Did Patricia and Gladness pose any threat to the well being of the political organisation which you were trying to further the objectives thereof?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: They never had any interference in our work.

MR MHLABA: Then why were they attacked Mr Motahung, can you just recap on that, because it is not very clear?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi were members of the IFP, we saw them at the funeral of the IFP and we at the township were fighting against the IFP and these people of the IFP were attacking people and killing people in the township.  That is when we realised that the people who were staying in the township, were giving information to other people in the hostel, who were members of the IFP.
	That is why we took a decision that these people should be killed, because they were giving out the information to the people who were staying at the hostel.  These were the people who were more dangerous because they would monitor our movements and give information to those who were living at the hostel.

ADV GCABASHE: Could I just ask Mr Motahung, did you have evidence that Patricia and Gladness were involved in those spying activities, that they were giving information to people at the hostel?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: We didn't have evidence to that effect, but our understanding was that the people who were staying in the township, were more dangerous than those in the hostel, because they were giving out information to the people at the hostel, and even the uncle of Mtshwene was also an Inkatha hitman and the other one who is deceased.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: All right.

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Questions Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got just two or three questions.
	On behalf of the family, they would like to know why was it necessary for you to shoot an unarmed woman, who never as far as they are concerned, were never a member of the IFP?  She was never active in any political organisation or any political dealings in the township.  Why was it necessary for you to kill her, to shoot her?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: Patricia Mtshwene and Gladness Mfelasi, Gugu Mtshwene, Moses Mtshwene, all those people I have counted were living in the township, I know them very well.
	Like I have already explained, I used to see them at the athletic meetings at the stadium.  They were involved in politics.  If I remember well, even Gugu Mtshwene, it happened that one day he was involved in an attack with other members of the IFP from the hostel, and that is when we realised that these people who lives in the township, were members of the IFP, were dangerous because they were giving out the information.  Therefore we have to attack them.
	That is the reason why I shot them.  That is Gladness Mfelasi and Patricia Mtshwene.

ADV STEENKAMP: Then they would also like to know if it was ANC policy to just go and kill other people who happen to be not in the same political belief or party as yourself?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: Can you please repeat your question again?

ADV STEENKAMP: I will do so.

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: I have a problem with this device, because sometimes it cuts.
	Yes, you may proceed.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you sir.  The question I would just like to pose again to you, the family would like to know if it was ANC policy just to kill people who happen to be not of the same political orientation as yourself or not to be a member of the same political party as yourself?  Was it policy just to kill those people?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: No, it was not the ANC policy, but if you remember well, the training that I received, the MK policy says that when you are a guerilla or a soldier of MK, in some cases you have to use your own discretion and take your own initiatives.  I was not sent by the ANC to go and kill those people.
	That was my own initiatives as a member of the ANC.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I would like to ask permission to ask this next question, although the applicant is not applying for amnesty for this.  He is referring on page 3 and as well as the evidence in chief, to another family member, Mr Moses Mtshwene.
	My instructions are that I have to ask the applicant if he knows what happened to Mr Moses Mtshwene, who died ten days after the deceased, who is the victim in this matter, Patricia, if that could be allowed?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, you referred to Mr Moses Mtshwene, that is also the son or the brother, I mean, of the deceased, Patricia, are you aware of this?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: That is correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: My information is that this person was killed ten days after his sister was killed.  Do you have any information or do you know how he was killed and if possible, by whom?

JERRY CHIMANJANA MOTAHUNG: I don't know how he was killed or who killed him.  The only thing that I know about Moses is that he was given a funeral by the IFP.

ADV STEENKAMP: Then lastly the family will deny that the deceased was ever a member of the ANC or ever partook then in any IFP political rallies whatsoever.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP