Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, I take it now you propose to lead the evidence-in-chief of Mr Madlala?

MS MOODLEY: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: The co-applicant in the same incident?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, we take it that your client is familiar with the contents of the affidavit.  You know how to expedite these proceedings, it is not necessary for you to go through the affidavit, he may simply confirm the correctness of the facts contained in the affidavit and we can then accept it as an exhibit and if you need to highlight any particular evidence in some of the facts stated in the affidavit you may proceed to do so?

MS MOODLEY: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MOODLEY: Chairperson, may I just have a minute before we start?   No it's fine, we can carry on.  I take the point that I'm not going to read the affidavit into the record but I would like Mr Madlala to give a version of the events very crisply of what had transpired and add to this.  An affidavit has already been read into the record, any additional information he wishes to bring to bear on the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS MOODLEY: I'm going to lead him but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want him to confirm the correctness of the contents of the affidavit first and then you can if you so wish just lead him on ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.   The speaker's mike.

MS MOODLEY: I'm sorry about that.  I actually can't hear too clearly.

MR MALAN: You will hear now.

CHAIRPERSON: My microphone was not on, that's why you couldn't hear me.  You'll now be in a position to hear me.  I think you must let him confirm the correctness of the facts contained in this affidavit so that we can be in a position to accept it as an exhibit, then proceed to lead him on any point which you wish, you would want us to have his evidence further highlighted even though mentioned in his affidavit.  Are we on the same page Ms Moodley?

MS MOODLEY: Yes we are.  For what it's worth, I hear the point about ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Your microphone is not on.

MS MOODLEY: I hear what Chairperson is saying.  I would read the affidavit and quickly so and then after it go to the applicant to then qualify certain aspects that he wishes to.

CHAIRPERSON: Has this affidavit not been read to Mr Madlala?

MS MOODLEY: It has been, it has been properly ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and what would be the purpose of reading it again if has been already been read to him and he understands and confirms the correctness thereof?  It's just a question of time on our side, we don't want to repeat.

MS MOODLEY: Look because I would have wanted to read the entire affidavit into the record but I hear what you say it's not necessary, we're wasting more time by actually debating the issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: I think let's just go on to putting to Mr Thulani C Madlala that this is the affidavit that we've drawn and read to you and are you happy with the contents and are you satisfied that this is correct?  I'm going to mark it Exhibit B and hand it in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  The affidavit of Mr Thulani C Madlala marked Exhibit B is now part of the record.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Madlala, I want to take you back to the incident in Wembezi which you are now familiar with and you hear your co-accused in your trial already giving evidence before this Commission.  There must be information that you would like to make known to this Commission in relation to this incident which the Commission is not aware of at this point so we would actually now want you to let the Commission know additional information in your possession which you would like to bring to bear on the Commissioners in the application of amnesty for yourself in respect of the charge of murder of Mr Phewa as well as the possession of the firearms and the ammunition.  Would you like to then now explain that?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes.  What I can say about Mr Christopher Phewa,
was an enemy to me in politics.  He is the one who was among the people who were opposing ANC, who wanted to destroy the ANC.

MS MOODLEY: Can you tell us about the incident on that particular day.  You say there was an ANC conflict, there were people within the ANC that were at loggerheads with each other.  Can you explain to us how this particular incident of the killing of Mr Phewa actually is part of this conflict internally between members of one organisation or at least, at the very least, members of an allegiance?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: We were coming from the hospital to visit my uncle, Gweni.  On our way from the hospital we went to the taxi rank, that is where we met Christopher Phewa in the company of the other people who were not known to me.  There was a conflict among us.  Happy, the one who is a co-accused was also there and Mr ...(indistinct) said we were the people who killed his father.  There was a squabble, we had arguments, we ended up shooting him.

MS MOODLEY: The gun that you used, Mr Madlala, where did you get the firearm from?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I got it from Musan Nglovo.

MS MOODLEY: Would you explain to the Commission who Musan Nglovo is?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Musan Nglovo was one of the people who I referred to as an uncle because he was always with me at the time.

MS MOODLEY: And how did he feature in the organisation that you belonged to besides being an uncle?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He was an ANC member.

MS MOODLEY: But how does it come about that an ANC member hands you a firearm?  Would you like to explain to the Commission about that?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He gave me the firearm in order to protect myself because the situation was tense at the time and we had to protect this ANC because the people wanted to destroy it therefore we're trying as much as we could to protect this ANC, we had no option, we couldn't stay without this organisation therefore we were protecting this organisation because they were prepared to destroy it.

MS MOODLEY: Who was prepared to destroy the organisation, the ANC?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It was Christopher Phewa and his father was among the people who played a role to destroy ANC.

MS MOODLEY: But did they not also belong to the ANC, would you like to explain that?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes there were ANC members before these incidents, yes I am sure that there were ANC members but as time went on there was this situation where Mr Phewa, Christopher's father became a leader of Amabuvo.  There was already a conflict at the time.

MS MOODLEY: So when Phewa was killed in the centre of Escourt on that particular day you viewed Phewa not as your enemy but as the foe of your political organisation?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, I regarded him as a person who wanted to destroy ANC in the area because he was totally against the roles of ANC.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Madlala, I've shown you briefly this morning an affidavit deposed to by the brother of the deceased, a gentleman called Patrick Thulani Phewa and Commissioner Malan has referred your co-accused in this matter to a particular paragraph and I'd like you to comment on that as well.  It refers to the fact that the deceased's next of kin claims that he was not a member of a political organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: That's paragraph 6?

MS MOODLEY: Yes, paragrapah 6, sorry, of the affidavit.
	What is your view on the matter that the deceased who was killed in this incident is claimed to be not a member of a political organisation?