Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant, Mr Chairperson, is Mr Paul van Dyk.

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Van Dyk, your amnesty application appears in Volume 1, from page 235 to 237, that is the official form, is that correct?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Which you have also signed under oath?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then the incident is contained within Annexure A from page 238 to 239?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the political motivation from page 240 to 248?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you confirm the content of your statement?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were involved in the incident of the 12th of June 1988?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you have also heard the evidence of Mr Ras and Mr Tait, is that correct?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you agree with their evidence?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: It would appear that you were in command of the instruction which was carried out across the border?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your rank at that time, Mr Van Dyk?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I was a Lieutenant.

MS VAN DER WALT: Under whose command were you at that stage when the incident took place?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Colonel De Kock was the Commander, the immediate Commander.

MS VAN DER WALT: And according to the evidence, Mr De Kock also gave the order to cross the border?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: According to your statement on page 238, paragraph 3, you state that you had to assist with arresting the persons who assisted the MK members with infiltrating the country?  You have heard the evidence of Mr Ras and Mr Tait that you had to shoot these persons dead, can you explain that?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Chairperson, the idea was to eliminate the persons, but in the event of something happening and if there was the remote opportunity of arresting somebody, we would do so.  But arrest was not a priority.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was it necessary for you if there was an opportunity, to arrest, why would it then be necessary to do so?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: We were not certain whether people would leave guards at the vehicle once they moved over the border to take people across and if we had to shoot before the others had crossed the border, we would have to shoot those persons, because we would have to get close to the vehicle, and that would upset the entire operation.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well, was it necessary for your division to undertake personal arrests and if they had been arrested, what would the purpose behind that be?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: If we arrested a person, it would provide more information for us.  Whether he would be prosecutor or what would happen to him after that, was unknown to me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Furthermore you state in the same paragraph
"... during the attempt to arrest, the persons shot at us.  We shot back and one person was killed."
	Why do you say that?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I fired first Chairperson, but at night if someone shoots in your direction with a firearm, you would clearly see the flames emerging from the weapon.  That is why I said that they fired at us as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you actually saw, you saw that they were shooting at you?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I saw the flames coming out of the barrel, so I assumed that they fired at us.

ADV GCABASHE: No, again I don't understand that.  You saw the flames coming out of the barrels, your barrels or you could identity their barrels?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: No, I identified that the shots were coming from the other person.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just while we are on this Mr Van Dyk, you were four?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you take up positions or what positions did you take up in relation to the vehicle?  Were you all grouped on the one side or was there one person in the front, one at each side and one at the back, what was the position?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Chairperson, the vehicle stood on the opposite side of the road and we stood on the other side of the road, we lay on the back of an embankment in a row.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have any possibility of shooting one of your comrades on the other side of the vehicle for instance?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: There was no possibility, all of us lay in a straight line next to one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Tait gave evidence that he drew an inference that you had been fired at, and you say that you saw fire emerging from a firearm?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, as I have said I saw a flame, and one could see it clearly.

MS VAN DER WALT: I don't know whether Mr Moerane had a basis for this, but he made a definite statement to Mr Tait that this was not the truth and that this was a fabrication when you made your amnesty applications.  Did you have any contact with Mr Tait before you submitted your amnesty applications?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: No, we did not have contact at any stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you are not being represented by the same group or firm of legal representatives?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that you fired first?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what happened after that?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: After we opened fire and then ceased fire, we approached the vehicle, we found the one person at the vehicle who lay on the other side, or at least our side of the vehicle.  He was already dead.  We attempted to open the boot of the vehicle, because the other instruction which we were given was among others, if possible to bring out that vehicle if we could, because there may be documents or any other items in the vehicle.  But the person who escaped, took the keys.  That is why we then decided to set the vehicle alight, if there were any other items inside the vehicle, such as weapons or explosives, that would also be destroyed.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also heard that Mr Tait as well as Mr Ras stated that these events took place very quickly?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that correct?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any kind of military camp which was situated nearby?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: We had information from the local Security Branch and before we entered the area they informed us, Mr Botha was there, he also knew the area very well, we were informed that there was a military camp in the near vicinity but we didn't know exactly where it was situated.

MS VAN DER WALT: But your objective when you went there, was to kill the persons?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that was the primary objective.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you in any way involved in the arrangements for the shooting which took place on the same night on the Republic side?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I had no share in that, not in the discussions nor in the events which took place there.

MS VAN DER WALT: The first incident which took place at Piet Retief, where the persons were killed?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I was not involved with that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you at Island Rock?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I was.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you hear about the persons who were killed, there?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, during conversation I learnt about it.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were a member of C1, is that correct?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: From when were you stationed there?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: From 1981 to 1993 I was stationed at Vlakplaas.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were consistently under the command of Colonel De Kock?