Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been the parking lot that Gakkie pointed out to you where the members of the Kewtown's vehicles were parked?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: So, that is the one that ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is what I am referring to.

MR LAX: As far as you are concerned, this is just a typographical error?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, perhaps I can come in, I am Afrikaans speaking, Mr Martini is not, so he wouldn't understand, he wouldn't be able to object.  But in Afrikaans you talk about "parkeergronde" as being one, it is not necessarily plural, more than one parking area.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR WESSELS: I assume that statement was drawn up by a legal representative that is Afrikaans speaking, so grammatically that would be, could be one in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: So it does not necessarily mean two separate parking areas, but they talk about "parkeergronde", meaning just the one.

MR WESSELS: No.  Just the one area.

MR LAX: I am indebted for the explanation, thank you.

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, I was going to say that within a parking lot, it can be interpreted to mean parking lots within the lot.  You have a parking lot where different cars park.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, we've got Mr van Zyl's explanation that he could only see the one, and that was the one that was pointed out by Gakkie, where the Kewtown members had their vehicles.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  You carry on to say
"... at approximately 9pm, the members of the Youth Movement left the hall and went to their vehicles."
	I assume what you are saying, you have a good view of the parking lot, you personally were watching these people leaving the hall and getting into their cars?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But, you have said that you cannot dispute that some of these people were in the hall at the time the bomb exploded in the CAYCO meeting?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So how could you possibly have seen them leaving and get into their cars?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Your argument does not make any sense to me.  I said that the management members of the Youth Organisation left the building at approximately 21H00, they climbed into their vehicles and they left the premises.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, the point is a simple one, take Mr Williams for example, he is one of the names on your list, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You have already conceded that you cannot dispute that at the time the bomb went off, Mr Williams is in the hall, not the hall, in the building, attending a meeting of CAYCO, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, if he is in the hall, attending a meeting of CAYCO at the time that the bomb went off, you couldn't possibly have seen him leaving the hall and getting into a car before the bomb went off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I hear what you say, but the fact of the matter is, as persons of the Kewtown Movement who attended the meeting, exited the building and climbed into their vehicles and left the premises, the premises became quiet and I accepted that everyone had gone home, that there was no one in the building.  But I cannot dispute that Mr Williams or anyone else, did not come out of the hall and went to attend another meeting.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, you are obviously lying.  You drafted this statement with a view to giving an impression  to the reader that you knew the hall was safe, because the people who were having the meeting there, were the Kewtown Youth and you saw them leaving the meeting, leaving the hall before you set the bomb off, and therefore you knew that setting the bomb off, would not injure or kill anyone in the circumstances.  That is what the statement says?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is a statement that I made, a Section 29 statement, where I said that everything was done possible to make sure that persons would not be killed or injured and it was never our intention.
	Calla made a statement, a Section 29 statement, we did not have any contact with each other.  Isgak Hardien made the same statement, Section 29.  All our statements are to that effect, but you want to hear something else, and I am not able to tell you anything else.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you carry on to say
"... Isgak informed me that everyone had left the building."
	Now, why would he tell you that if you can see it with your own eyes?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Because he identified some of the persons to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: This is the checklist of the Kewtown people?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  He was obviously feeding you incorrect information, because we know now that in truth and in fact, they hadn't all left the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He gave me information, whether it was one hundred percent correct, I cannot tell you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can say, because we know for a fact that there were members of the Kewtown Youth in the building at the time that the bomb went off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So therefore you must concede that the information you received, was wrong?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not necessarily.  I cannot recall whether for example Mr Williams who were in the office, was specifically pointed out to me and he said "there he comes, there he climbs to his vehicle, there he leaves".

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Then you say
"... we were approximately 30 metres from the hall.  I then told Isgak to drive around the block, so that I could activate the mine."
	Now, I read that to say that - let's just read that together, the next sentence -
"... the mine was then activated and the bomb went off."
	So you say 
"... we drove around the block so that I could activate the mine and thereafter the mine was activated."
	Now you are going to tell me, I assume, I am wrong in assuming that that sentence means that you pressed the button?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, what I am saying there is that we then drove around the block so that I could activate the mine, but I pressed the button twice, thrice, nothing happened, and then I gave the thing to Calla who pressed it, and then the bomb was activated.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you telling me you told the Advocate who drafted this statement on your behalf, that Calla Botha had pressed the remote?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, he was also in possession of my Article 29 statement.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And he just thought it expedient to leave that fact out?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I don't think you can say that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Don't you think it would be terrifically important to Mr Justice Harms and everybody else who was involved in the Commission, to know who had pressed the button?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I say this under correction, but one testifies much wider that what your statement states, and it is quite possible that at the Harms Commission that I would testify that Calla activated the bomb.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Except we know that Calla says that he did not do it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We shall have to look and see when he comes to testify.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Why would you drive around the block?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Is that a question?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  I am just trying to work out why you are driving around the block so that you can ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We wanted to move away from the scene so that we could activate the bomb and then drive away to the airport.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You wanted to be in motion at the time that the bomb explodes?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: For a quick getaway?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr van Zyl, Mr Kahanovitz, you say that at one stage you were about 30 metres from the hall?  And that from my reading of the statement, would be shortly before the detonation of the bomb, because you were 30 metres, told Gakkie to told the car, so he can get in the car and the activate it while you are mobile?