Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't expect documents to come from anywhere, I'm just surmising that it was from Johannesburg, I don't know - it may have come from Cape Town, I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  When did you receive these documents, was it before your attorney could write me a letter enquiring about the report or after?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Are you referring a letter that has been already written or a letter that could have been written?

UNKNOWN: You handed up a document - a letter, which was my response to your lawyer's letter.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes.

UNKNOWN: Was it before your lawyer's letter or after your lawyer's letter?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, what date was that - that letter, I haven't got it with me now.

UNKNOWN: I think it was around the 7th of November - 7th or 10th of November.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I think it was about a week after I got that letter from Mr Moolman, which was - I believe, on the 4th, so it was the 11th or the 12th I think.

UNKNOWN: The 11th of November?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Something like that, yes.  His letter to fax to me was the 4th of November and my letter faxed to him was the 4th of November.

UNKNOWN: Now my question is, did you receive these documents before your attorneys, Swart Redlinghuis, Nel en Venote could write me a letter asking me about the report?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, the attorneys had been writing and asking about this report for months ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: I'm not bothered about months Mrs Derby-Lewis.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about, I've got a letter here ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: I'll tell you what I'm talking about, I'll tell you ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Excuse me, may I just finish ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Look at Exhibit X5 ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, may I just finish, there's a letter on my file dated the 10th of November from Mr Mpshe to Swart Redlinghuis - I got that from Mr Lubbe, I don't know when I got that, he just gave it to me for the file.  I asked him whether he had received anything about the case because the case was coming up and ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Did he give you a letter which he had written to me to which I was responding in Exhibit X5?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: Now look at the date on his letter and tell the Committee as to whether the documents were received by yourself before or after that letter could be written to me.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I've got a copy of your letter to him, I don't have a copy of his letter to you, I'm sorry.  What date is that?

UNKNOWN: I don't have it either, you only submitted the response.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don't know when he wrote to you, he wrote to you on more than one occasion, so I don't know which - oh, sorry, it says here: "With reference to our response we would like to apologise" - I'm sorry, I don't know - I've got your letter to him dated ...[End of tape 1B, day 6 - no follow-on sound]
	What one is that?

UNKNOWN: Exhibit X5, the letter you've referring to now.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: From you to Mr Lubbe?

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes?

UNKNOWN: And try and recall when did you receive those documents by post.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I received them about a week after the 4th of November, I suppose that was the 11th or the 12th - around there.

UNKNOWN: Could it have been before?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I don't ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Swart could write me a letter asking about the report?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don't think so, I didn't take any notice of it when I got it, I think it was about - I don't know, I wasn't tying this up with letters and correspondence between you and Mr Lubbe.

UNKNOWN: All right.  When Mr Lubbe gave you the copy of my letter to him - this Exhibit 5, you  were already in possession of the documents you've just given to the Committee, not so?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm not sure, I don't know - I didn't take note of it in relation to this letter.

UNKNOWN: Yes, you didn't then but I'm asking you now.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm sorry about that.

UNKNOWN: When you ...[indistinct] this, were you in possession of those documents?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know.

UNKNOWN: When did you get in possession of those documents?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I've just mentioned, about a week after I got the letter back from Report.

UNKNOWN: I take it that you don't want to respond to the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it important to know the exact date Mr Mpshe, because she says it was about a week after the letter of the 4th from Mr Moolman.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, that may be so but I'm putting such a simple question - when her attorney gave her the copy of my letter, Exhibit 5, was she already in possession of the documents?  I mean Mr Chairman, if she was in possession of the documents she should say: "Yes, when I saw this letter I recalled that I've got these documents already with me"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That is all I want to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What is the importance of the point?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the importance of the point is to show the Committee that it means then - it would mean, if this letter from her lawyer was written to me before or after - it was written to me after they got the reports, that there was no honesty in them asking me about the reports when they had the documents already - that's the point I'm trying to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's the import of the question, you might formulate it and put it to her.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it would serve no purpose because she keeps on saying: "I don't know, I can't remember".  I will proceed to the next question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, she says it's about a week from the 4th of November, can't we deduce from there that it could have been around the 11th of November?

CHAIRPERSON: About.

SISI KHAMPEPE: About the 11th of November?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Madam, but I will leave the point there.
	Do you recall when my learned friend, Advocate Bizos was cross-examining you, you admitted having said the following statement that:
"You kill six and six are born at Baragwanath"
Do you recall that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What had prompted such a statement?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Bizos asked me: "Was it racist" and I said: "No".

UNKNOWN: No, I'm asking you.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, there were - nothing prompted it, it was an off the cuff remark when I was concerned about people going out and shooting people and I made an off the cuff remark, it wasn't meant to be insulting and on the other - on the contrary, in the context that it was said the tape shows clearly that I didn't agree with that kind of thing.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying to ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: There was no sinister reason for saying it.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but are you saying to this Committee that it just came into your
mind when you learnt about people going around shooting people, that you said: "Kill six and six is born"?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Without any meaning behind that statement.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but that meaning is that it has not significance whatsoever - political significance, to go out and shoot people because six more are born, for what reason would you go and shoot people.

UNKNOWN: Couldn't it still have meant that you kill six, six is borne, why don't you kill thousands at a go - you're wasting time at six?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, no, no, really ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Or go for the important ones and leave alone the six?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, you're now trying to put words into my mouth and that is not true.

UNKNOWN: All right, let me ask you directly now, what were you insinuating with this statement?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No insinuation whatsoever.

UNKNOWN: What were you trying to convey to the listener?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I just told you.

UNKNOWN: What?