Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.  The Panel is the same as we were constituted this morning.  I'm going to ask the legal representatives to announce themselves for the purpose of the record.

MS LOONAT: Good afternoon.  My name is Zarina Loonat ...(indistinct).  I'm representing the applicant in this matter today, Mr Musa Mahambane.  Thank you.

MS DE KLERK: Good afternoon Members of the Panel.  I'm Marcia de Klerk.  I'm representing the victim, Mrs Walters, Martin Craven, Mrs ...(indistinct), Mrs ...(indistinct) and Mrs Smith.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Ms de Klerk?

MS DE KLERK: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just go by those names of the people, of the victims again please?

MS DE KLERK: Mrs Walters who's the next of kin of Derek Walters who is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Deceased?

MS DE KLERK: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MS DE KLERK: Mr Craven, Martin Craven.  Then Mr de Grubb.  However Miss de Grubb hasn't been included in the indictment, you know, for the trial. He hasn't suffered any injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: But is he willing to participate in the process because he can still be regarded as a victim?

MS DE KLERK: Well Mr de Grubb, I have got his instructions to oppose the application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Then?

MS DE KLERK: Then there's Mrs Barkor who is present.  Mr Barkor is the wife of Vic Barkor who was shot in the eye outside the NBS, who has subsequently a few months later died.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of his injury?

MS DE KLERK: Well, that hasn't been ascertained as a definite conclusion.  Mr Barkor died of a brain haemorrhage which could have been as a result of the injuries sustained.  Then there's Mrs Catherine Druft.  Mrs Druft has also indicated to me, well given me her instructions to oppose the application.  However, she's unavailable to attend the hearing today on the basis that she underwent an operation on Friday and she's still hospitalised.  And then there's Mrs Gloria Smith.  She said that she's not interested in attending the hearing or anything, but she does oppose the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Does not, or does?

MS DE KLERK: She opposes the application for amnesty.  However, she's not interested in attending the hearing as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Now before we carry on, I see you have possibly 6 people who could be regarded as victims, all of whom are opposing the application.  On what basis would they be opposing the application given the requirements of the Act?

MS DE KLERK: The basis of the opposition is the fact that they don't feel that the robbery as such, or the murder of Mr Walters, was politically motivated.  They can't see the political object which the applicant was striving to achieve.  It seems to be common amongst all the victims that this was just a blatant robbery, an attempted hijacking, whereby an innocent person, because he couldn't get loose of a seat belt, was murdered.
	In terms of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that, Mr Walters?

MS DE KLERK: Mr Walters.  In light of that, that the applicant doesn't fulfil the requirements in order for him to succeed in the application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms de Klerk in the meantime I think it'd be wise for you to get some information where applicable, where people have died, whether there are any children left as well, because they would, in the event of us granting in this case amnesty, they in addition to the surviving spouse, would be regarded as victims.
Yes, Ms Loonat.  Does your client speak Zulu?

MS LOONAT: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: (sworn states)

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, you were born on the 29th of March 1966 in Newlands in Durban, you are a South African citizen, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

MS LOONAT: You are now 34 years old and you have spent, according to the record, 7 years in prison of your 20 year sentence, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

MS LOONAT: The sentence was imposed on you on the 23rd of May 1993, for committing the following offences on the 26th of October 1991, at the NBS, the Natal Building Society, in Umhlanga, namely robbery, attempted murder of Mr Barkor, Messrs Barkor, Reed and Craven and the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of who are the attempted murder application made?

MS LOONAT: Mr Barkor, Mr Reed and Mr Craven.  Your Honour, this is on page 64 of the bundle, line 20.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Barkor, Mr ?

MS LOONAT: Reed and Mr Craven and I get that from the bundle on page 64.

CHAIRPERSON: And the murder of?

MS LOONAT: The murder of Mr Walters.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja and?

MS LOONAT: The unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MS LOONAT: May I proceed Your Honour?  Thank you.  Sir, are you married?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

MS LOONAT: Do you have any children?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I have two children.

MS LOONAT: Where do you live?  Where do your children live?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: They live with my mother.

MS LOONAT: So were you employed prior to this offence?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I used to be a taxi driver.

MS LOONAT: Do you have any previous convictions?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

MS LOONAT: What political party do you belong to?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The ANC.

MS LOONAT: Are you a registered member of the ANC?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I am not a card carrying member.

MS LOONAT: Why didn't you get ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: At the time, were you?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, at that time it was not very important to have a card

MS LOONAT: How long were you a supporter of the ANC?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I started supporting the ANC in 1985 after Mrs ...(indistinct) death.

MS LOONAT: Before we proceed, could you please tell the Panel what your level of education was at the time?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Up to standard 9.

MS LOONAT: So it was after standard 9 that you got involved in politics, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I was saying so, but we also used to have political meeting at school.

MS LOONAT: Do you own a firearm?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

MS LOONAT: Are you trained to use one?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We received very basic training on how to use a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: In the township.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: By Mandla.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's Mandla?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Mandla Mlambo was our leader.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of leader?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He is the person who used to issue out instructions when we held meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: For what?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: At the time, we were under constant attack from Lindelane residents and the police, so we were involved in defending our community.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of instructions did he give?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: As to strategising as to how to best defend ourselves against these attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: And he taught you how to use a firearm?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, he was the person who demonstrated to us.

CHAIRPERSON: How many lessons did you have?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was not very thorough, but he just showed us the firearm and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How many lessons did you have?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I will say two occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Two occasions.  In kwaMashu?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How many students were there when you were trained on these two occasions?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We were not more than 10.

CHAIRPERSON: So he would do at least, or most, 10 at a time?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, we'd never be more than 10.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of gun or firearm were you trained in?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was a 9mm and a pump gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that at the same lesson or on different lessons?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He first brought the pump gun and then subsequently he brought smaller firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: And each of the students would be trained in a gun?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I will say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did it come you were part of this training session?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Sorry?