Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Exactly.  So that these samples, and there are four samples which were tested by the forensic laboratory by Brigadier Strauss, one with product B, one with product BX, one with product C, all three items supplied by Brigadier Basson.

DR KNOBEL: In addition to the four.

MR VALLY: And a fourth container with no alphabetical identification.

DR KNOBEL: Yes, but it's in addition to the four that Commandant de Bruyn had in his possession.

MR VALLY: Why do we say that?

DR KNOBEL: Because those were the samples that were handed over to the forensic laboratory.

DR KNOBEL: Is there a reference to another four samples handed in anywhere?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, if you look at the top of page 2 of the document by Commandant de Bruyn, he says
"Four of the plastic drums were taken, samples were taken and is in my possession"

MR VALLY: I understand but I'm trying to work out what happened to those four samples.

DR KNOBEL: I think what we should do is we should get Commandant de Bruyn to come and testify here.

MR VALLY: Possibly.

DR KNOBEL: Then you maybe will find out exactly.

MR VALLY: In terms of the documentation supplied to us at the moment, Brigadier Strauss was only given on the 30th of May 1993 by Colonel Steyn, four samples, one marked product B, one marked product BX, one marked product C.  These were the one supplied by Brigadier Basson, we can work that out, and with no identification on it.  Can we accept that as being the logical ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: This is what he declares here, yes.

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And he's the person who did the analysis and determined what the substances were?

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And so this report to the Coordinating Management Committee which I believe was on the 29th of January, is that right?

DR KNOBEL: 29th of January, yes.

MR VALLY: At that stage they didn't know what was in the samples at all.

DR KNOBEL: Not yet, they were waiting for the report of the - if you look at the meeting of the 31st of March of the Coordinating Management Committee which is also in that folder.

MR VALLY: Yes?

DR KNOBEL: Paragraph 5, the certificate
"Brigadier Basson handed over the destruction certificate to me.  The sample is still in the possession of the security officer and Basson once again confirmed that the samples were taken by the security officer himself.  After a long discussion it was decided that GG would request Compol to analyse these samples at the forensic laboratory and afterwards to destroy the certificates"
Now you see the chronological process that was followed here?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR KNOBEL: That's why the tests were only done after the 30th or 31st of March.

MR VALLY: And that concerns me even more but if we can get some explanation, what does it mean to deactivate these samples?

DR KNOBEL: I think we should ask Professor Folb what that means, I don't know ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Well, the question that I'm asking is in fact a question that Professor Folb is also asking.  What did it mean when Brigadier Basson said that
"I deactivated these samples"

DR KNOBEL: I've no idea what that means.

MR VALLY: Now let's go on to the time when you were called back from a conference overseas.  I think you were in London and you were appointed acting head of the South African Defence Force when all the Generals were suspended, including Brigadier Basson, do you recall that?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, I do but they were not all Generals Mr Vally, there was 23 senior officers.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, 23 senior officers.  And when was this?  I tried to see a date in your statement.

DR KNOBEL: The conference that I attended in America is usually the first two weeks in November and I was on my way back to South African and I went to visit a pharmaceutical plant in Nottingham, so this was towards the end of November.

MR VALLY: Alright.  It appears to have been sometime in December 1992 apparently.

DR KNOBEL: Yes, in December I was appointed as Acting Chief of the Defence Force, on my return.

MR VALLY: Right.  Now, if you go to document TRC111 which was the preparatory document by General Steyn.

DR KNOBEL: Yes, Sir?

MR VALLY: And if you look at page B12.

DR KNOBEL: Right, B12?

MR VALLY: That's right.  And I assume by this stage this information was already with at least certain elements in Defence Force, at least General Steyn knew about this information?

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: B12, the 3rd paragraph which reads
"Information supplied by sources"
and you read the last sentence:
"Wouter Basson"
and it's not clear, it looks like: "who" on mine:
"also in respect of a hundred thousand mandrax tablets per month for year, he offered this"
and in brackets next to it:
(allegations)
Do you see what I'm referring to?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, yes, I've got it.

MR VALLY: When you were acting head of the Defence Force for a short period, were you aware of this allegation?

DR KNOBEL: Of course not, I have already testified to that effect.  I've testified twice already that when I discussed it with General Steyn, he indicated to me that he could not make known to me the contents of his report to Mr de Klerk.  When I tried to discuss it with Mr de Klerk, he refused to see me.  When I wanted to have access to the so-called report, it was not made available.  Even today we're not sure if there was an actual report, as you well know.  This particular document I indicated to you in my affidavit, I've been given a copy of, a translated copy of by National Intelligence in, I think the date is written on it, it's one of the documents that I've given you ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: I think you said '97.

DR KNOBEL: Yes, the date is actually written on it.  That was the very first time that I had insight into the so-called Steyn Report or at least into the staff paper used by General Steyn.

MR VALLY: In any event there must have been people within the military for General Steyn to have made this allegation about a hundred thousand mandrax tablets being offered per month.  There must have been a basis for such an allegation.

DR KNOBEL: There might have been, I have no idea.

MR VALLY: Which was within the knowledge of at least General Steyn?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, we are going to be some time still, so I need to ascertain whether we are going to finish early and continue tomorrow.  We're not going to be able to finish, even if we were to sit till late today.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you want to do Mr Vally, what's your preference?

MR VALLY: Well, if we can carry on until at least four thirty and then, unless you want us to carry on much later and try and finish?

CHAIRPERSON: Well if it is your view that you are still going to much longer and that even if we sat late we would not be able to finish, this matter was set down for two days.

MR VALLY: If we work till six we may finish, if the panel is available and if my learned friends are available.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if we are available, all of us.  The panel has been depleted by one member in circumstances which are not very clear to me at the moment.  Let's tentatively work until half past four and then we'll see.  Other counsel?  Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, there are probably certain aspects in re-examination, if I may call it that, that we will in any case ask to stand over until tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR VALLY: Well if we could move on to Annexure J of the documents you provided us with.  Now this is a letter of demand as you are aware.  I'm talking about J1 as well as J2, sorry, J1 is the letter of demand, I beg your pardon.

DR KNOBEL: Is that from Viljoen, French and Co?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

DR KNOBEL: I've got it.

MR VALLY: The 3rd paragraph, he refers to you as coordinator of the Baxil Project, Baxil we know is the code name for ecstasy.

DR KNOBEL: Yes, Sir.