Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MS VAN DER WALT: I beg your pardon, I did not note that.
	That was in Johannesburg in 1990 and today you say that in 1991 you went and saw Chris Hani in Transkei and that was the only time that you negotiated with him since you entered the country in 1989.

J A MKHWANAZI: I don't remember Mndebele saying that he was with me and I don't remember being with Mndebele either.  With regard to the Transkei matter, that is the truth and that is the only time that I was able to meet with him because we were operating underground and we were not able to see each other frequently.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that may be so but if Mr Mndebele had said you were party to consulting with Mr Chris Hani, what would you say?

J A MKHWANAZI: I don't remember.

MS VAN DER WALT: I wish to refer you to Volume 1, page 10, paragraph 8.  Could you page to page 10?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mndebele's evidence?  But he says he cannot remember.  I don't think there is a dispute that such evidence was given.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you work underground when you were here in Ermelo?

J A MKHWANAZI: Could you please repeat your question?

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you have to work underground when you were in Ermelo?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was going to be arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: But Sir, the ANC in February 1990 was unbanned.

CHAIRPERSON: He never said why he thought he was going to be arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell the Honourable Committee why you thought that you were going to be arrested?

J A MKHWANAZI: It's because I had not yet got amnesty to enter the country or indemnity.

MS VAN DER WALT: Until when did you work underground?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think it was early 1993 or late 1992 that I applied for amnesty, so I was able then to continue then to continue with whatever I was doing.

MS VAN DER WALT: I wish to take you to the instruction that you gave to Mr Gushu, can you repeat it?  What was your precise instruction to him?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, there were a few instructions obviously given between this witness and Mr Gushu, perhaps my learned friend can just direct him as to which instruction she's talking about.

MS VAN DER WALT: All the instructions that you gave to Mr Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss van der Walt, maybe it is going to help if you ask him chronologically: "At a certain stage what is the instruction that you gave"?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is my problem Mr Chairperson.  The applicant, and it is apparent of these applicants, I would like to know if this was the ANC's policy.  According to me they gave such vague instructions which included deeds that I would not want to mention here because I want him to tell me what the instruction was but I will try to be more specific.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he testify that there were several instances where he received several instructions?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is not how I understood it.

CHAIRPERSON: You have testified that you gave Mr Gushu at least one instruction, do you recall that?

J A MKHWANAZI: It's for him to kill Jwi.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that.

J A MKHWANAZI: For him to kill Jwi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  At that time, can you explain to us what the exact instruction was?

J A MKHWANAZI: I laid the background with regard to the situation in Ermelo and that the person behind the violence was Jwi and he therefore had to remove him so that we could see as to whether this violence would be quelled thereafter or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you told him to do?

J A MKHWANAZI: I instructed with regard to Chris Ngwenya and the general instruction to stabilise the situation in the neighbouring townships.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give him a discretion how to do that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Could you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: In telling him that or giving him an order that he should do, or that he should quell the violence and whatever else in the area, did your order take the form of giving him a general discretion as to use his own initiative in order to do that or did you give him specific instructions?

J A MKHWANAZI: I gave him an instruction to take the initiative.  He should weight the situation first and act in accordance with whatever situation prevailed at the time and do whatever he thought was fit.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you gave him this instruction and you gave him an instruction to kill Zwane and you gave him an instruction to kill Ngwenya, was that all the same time or was it on different occasions?

J A MKHWANAZI: It was at different times.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which one was first?

J A MKHWANAZI: I don't remember quite well as to which instruction I gave first, but after I had trained him in Nelspruit I told him that he should stabilise the situation because he was going back to Secunda and I was coming to Ermelo, so I told him that he should try to stabilise the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you accept, chronologically I think we've established that Mr Zwane died first.

J A MKHWANAZI: I think I will accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: So the order to kill Ngwenya must have come after that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think the Jwi Zwane matter came first and then the Ngwenya matter came thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: This other general instruction to use his discretion in his attempt to quell the situation, was that the third occasion or did you tell him that on one of those occasions where you gave him an order to kill a person?

J A MKHWANAZI: Could you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: You know that general instruction you gave him about the situation in the area, when did you give him that instruction?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is when we parted in Nelspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the time when you gave him the order to kill Zwane?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, the Zwane matter was discussed here in Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Before or after you gave him the general instruction to get the matter under control?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think it was after.  I started with the general instruction and I came to the Jwi Zwane matter.

CHAIRPERSON: And then to the Ngwenya matter.

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, if I remember quite well I think the Ngwenya matter came thereafter but I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss van der Walt, I hope that helps.

MS VAN DER WALT: May I just clarify one thing please.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, what did you include under the area, which places did you include under the area when you gave this general instruction?

J A MKHWANAZI: Mbalentle, Secunda, Ermelo as well as Piet Retief.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Dawel?

J A MKHWANAZI: Dawel as well.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your instruction to Mr Gushu in terms of the self-defence units?

J A MKHWANAZI: I had already said that I had told him to form SDU's because he was not going to be able to quell the violence single-handedly.  As to how he formed them was really up to him.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your instruction to him with regard to Piet Retief?

J A MKHWANAZI: With what exactly in Piet Retief?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] tell him he must go to Piet Retief?

J A MKHWANAZI: When I issued the general instruction I counted or mentioned all the townships where there was violence as well as all the townships where the Black Cats were reigning, were conducting a reign of terror.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that include Piet Retief?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: How do you know that the Black Cats operated in Piet Retief?

CHAIRPERSON: He did not say so, he said his instruction was that Gushu had to cover the places where problems were and where the Black Cats operated.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your instruction with regard to Piet Retief, because you have now said that you named all the places?  What did he have to do in Piet Retief?

J A MKHWANAZI: I said if there is a need that he should stabilise the situation in Piet Retief, he should right on ahead and do it.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you know about Piet Retief, according to what happened in Piet Retief?