Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was in Waterval prison, Utrecht.

MS MOHAMED: How did you make an application for amnesty?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Will you please explain your question further, what do you mean?

MS MOHAMED: You said that you did make an application for amnesty?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to make an application for amnesty?

MZWAKE SHANDU: In prison, we were being advised on how to forward the amnesty application.  There was a place where one would go there and fill in the forms, and I was amongst those people who did so.

MS MOHAMED: After you filled in your form, what did you do to that form?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I handed it to a member who was dealing with such processes in prison.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Shandu, I am going to refer you to the bundle of documents before you.   There is an affidavit that appears in this bundle, the hand-written affidavit appears from page 13 to 16.
	In paragraph 2 of this affidavit, there is a sentence here which reads -
"... although I did not sign any form, I remember that we included our names and Ziba had to sign the application form."
	Can you explain this, because there is clearly now a different version on these affidavits?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you answer that question, were you and Malevu together when you spoke to Mr Cele or were you separate?

MZWAKE SHANDU: We were not together, I was alone in Waterval and Malevu was already in Westville at the time, and I did not speak directly to Mr Cele.  He was only introduced to me.  It was only Sheila Mkhize that I spoke to.

MR LAX: Is that your signature on page 16?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you see that it is dated the 8th of July 1999?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes.

MR LAX: That is the day after Mr Malevu signed his affidavit?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I am not sure whether that is a question or a statement.

MR LAX: Can you see that it is a day afterwards, he signed on the 7th, you signed on the 8th?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Where is Mr Malevu's signature, on what page?

MR LAX: Page 10.  Sorry, I should have indicated that to you.  If you look at the bottom of page 10, you will see that.
	Do you see where he signed, your lawyer is pointing it out to you?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, I can see that.

MR LAX: Do you also notice that the same person attested both statements and that was Mr Cele?

MZWAKE SHANDU: That is possible that it is the signature of the same person.

MR LAX: Yes.  So Mr Cele must have spoken to you and said "is this affidavit the truth, do you swear that it is the truth" and you would have taken the oath and he would have signed it with you, is that right?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it happen that you signed the statement?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I sent this statement after it was compiled, by Sheila, meaning Mr Joshua Cele and Sheila Mkhize came when I was sick there in prison, I didn't get time to read the whole statement.
	I was just satisfied that he had written the statement the right way and decided to sign.
	I even explained to them about my health condition, as a sick person.

MR LAX: Can I ask you a question, you see next to your signature there is a date, 8 July 1999, did you write that - 1999-07-08?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I do not remember writing the date, I only remember signing the document.

MR LAX: Is that your handwriting, is that how you write?

MZWAKE SHANDU: It is very difficult to identify the handwriting, when it is written in figures, but if it was just a handwriting, words, not figures, it would be easy for me to identify.

MR LAX: How did Ms Mkhize take the statement from you?  Did she ask you questions and then you gave her answers and then you wrote them down?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was sometimes asked questions and sometimes I would be expected to explain.

MR LAX: But basically she wrote down what you told her?  Is that right?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was not looking at her while she was writing, I cannot confirm that she was actually writing exactly what I was telling her.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, what is the position about the other matter?  Have we got any response from the search?

MS THABETHE: No Mr Chair, I haven't had any indications from Mr Madlala, sorry from Mr Mpanza, who has gone to follow it up.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't received any response?

MS THABETHE: I haven't had any response.

MR LAX: Your phone has been off in the meantime?

MS THABETHE: But Molly would have told me what was happening.

MR LAX: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you in the meantime see if Molly can contact him and find out what the position is?

MS THABETHE: Okay, Mr Chair.

MR LAX: Just to finish off that issue, Mr Shandu, did you read this statement when it was finished, being written?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No.

MR LAX: Did she read it to you?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I cannot remember whether she did that, but as I explained initially, I was not as patient to listen to everything, even if she did that, because I was very sick.  After compiling the statement and I trusted her, I signed the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a policeman prior to that, is that not so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank did you hold?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was a constable.

CHAIRPERSON: How long were you a policeman?

MZWAKE SHANDU: For five years at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were acquainted with the procedures as to making statements and the rights of people making statements and so forth, not so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were quite acquainted with the importance of making statements?  Not so, and the accuracy thereof?  Correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How is it that you paid such a reduced attention to a statement that you were making, which would possibly secure your release from prison?  Why is that?

MZWAKE SHANDU: If you are seriously ill as I was at that time, it is possible that such things can happen, because a person in my condition, even if I was supposed to appear in court for a certain offence, that would be postponed.

MR LAX: Mr Shandu, you knew that there was a problem with your application, isn't that so?  Because they came to see you as perpetrators, not as applicants?  Isn't that so?  As implicated parties and that is when you found out that there was something wrong with your application?

CHAIRPERSON: Or that you did not make an application?

MR LAX: Isn't that so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Will you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: I understood him, I will try to put it as simply as possible, the reason these policemen and investigators from the Truth Commission had come to see you, was because it wasn't clear whether you were an applicant or an implicated party.  You must have therefore realised as a consequence of that, how important getting the right facts down now, were going to be as to how the Truth Commission would deal with your application?  Isn't that so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And yet you, an experienced policeman, knowing what the meaning of affidavits are,  didn't bother to check it?  The only explanation that you can give us is that you were sick?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, I was very sick, and I had no reason not to trust them.

MR LAX: Do you think they had any reason to put words in your mouth that were not true?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I do not know, but that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, it is strange that on two different occasions a similar excuse, if I may call it that, in two different places, is tendered.  It is such an unusual excuse, it is difficult to accept that it was the truth, or that you are telling us the truth now.  It is hardly something to have been made up by the writer of that document, unless he received it from the deponents of that statements?
	You see, from what you tell us, you didn't know what Malevu had told him in respect of this mess up?  Is that not so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Will you please repeat, what about Malevu?