Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: No-one ever helped me with any finance.  When we left South Africa, we approached the Swaziland border gate and while we were in Swaziland, Moosa Eric Mbatha knew some people who were working for the ANC underground, who were stationed in Swaziland.  Those were the people who took us in a car, took us to the refuge camp.

MS LOONAT: What did you do whilst you were in Swaziland?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I left Swaziland for Zambia in Lusaka.

MS LOONAT: So you didn't stay in Swaziland, you moved on, is that correct?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I stayed for a short while, something like two weeks, because we were still arranging a flight ticket for me.

MS LOONAT: You say "we", how many of you were involved?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Four of us who were there for the very first time and Moosa was the fifth person.

MS LOONAT: Were these school friends of yours or relatives of yours or comrades, who were these four people?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The other people were comrades, but the comrades that were known to me.

MS LOONAT: Can you give us their names and their whereabouts please.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Some of them unfortunately are no longer alive, but some of them are still alive.

MS LOONAT: Do you have any contact with those who are alive?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The one who is present right now is working with the SANDF.  If possible or necessary, I would be able to contact him.

MS LOONAT: And his name please, for the record.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: His name is Mbogi.

MS LOONAT: And what is his position in the ANC hierarchy?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I do not understand the question.

MS LOONAT: You say he was a comrade of yours and together you belonged to the ANC Party.  What I'm asking is, what is his position, his status in the Party, is he just a supporter, is he a Commander, what is he?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: He was just an ordinary comrade, but when we got to exile after training, then he became an MK Commander, until we came back.  I was later arrested and he was integrated to the SANDF.  He is employed there at the moment.

MS LOONAT: Mr Ndlovu, whilst you were in exile, from Swaziland you went to Uganda, is that correct?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: When I left Swaziland I went to Zambia and then from Zambia I left for Uganda.

MS LOONAT: And what did you do whilst you were in exile?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: When I arrived in Uganda, I started with my training in guerilla warfare.  I trained and I completed the course and after completing the course in Uganda, I was transferred to Tanzania.  I stayed there in the camp until I left to a certain place and I stayed there for a short while.  That is when I got to repatriation and then I came to South Africa.

MS LOONAT: How long did you train in guerilla warfare whilst you were in Uganda?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: For a year.  My training took a year, because I started in 1990, up until the end of that year.

MS LOONAT: Who trained you and what exactly, what kind of firearms and things were you trained in?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: In the camp, normally there are so many instructors because there are different programmes, tactics physics, MCW, political education.  It's a combination of selected people, people who have finished with their training and therefore they convene classes with different programmes.  We were trained in each and every firearm, firearms that are used by soldiers, footsoldiers and the other types of firearms.

MS LOONAT: And you say that lasted for approximately a year, is that correct?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

MS LOONAT: You then say you were transferred to Tanzania - why?  What did you do in Tanzania?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: When I was transferred to Tanzania, there was a special course that we had to attend, that was part of the training.  When I arrived there in Tanzania, that particular course was removed and they started with another course which the emphasis was more on repatriation, and the situation forced them to establish a regular army, training people in protecting so that when we'd come to South Africa, we would be integrated to the SANDF.  The course that we went there to do was stopped and we couldn't continue and we were repatriated to South Africa thereafter.

MS LOONAT: Were you trained in jungle warfare as apposed to guerilla warfare?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

MS LOONAT: Please tell us where and for how long.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The course that we went there to do from Uganda, after the guerilla warfare, then in Tanzania we went there for jungle warfare and we were told that it was going to take four years.  The training itself was going to take four years.  Because of the changes here in South Africa, that was changed and we couldn't continue with the course.  And then there was this new course that was introduced, the regular training.  Some comrades took that course and myself and the others were taken back to South Africa, because we were waiting to be integrated in the SANDF.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and your military background seems to be corroborated by the exhibits that were handed in, so I don't think there's very much in dispute here, in regard to that.  Perhaps you want to deal with the situation when you got back to South Africa.  Can you tell us what happened then?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: After getting into South Africa - I arrived in 1991, December, I experienced a lot of problems.  According to the briefing before leaving the exile, we were told that as were entering the country, there are lots of things that we had done and the community at large was waiting for us.  There were no people who were still harassing other people.  As we knew that we left the country in a very tense situation, therefore we were waiting to be integrated to the South African soldiers, but when we arrived here, we realised that there were gangsters, there were still killings and gangsters associated with organisations that were my organisation's rivals.  There were unknown gunmen driving, shooting people in cars and the police belonging to Murder and Robbery, they would come to the township and shoot at the people and no-one will get a clue as to who did that.
	As that was happening, myself and the other comrade that I was with in exile, Keke Nyawuse, when we saw this happening, we sat down and talked with the other comrades ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, could you speak a little bit slower, so you can give the interpreter time to interpret for us and we can take down the notes.