Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I have already explained, Sir, thatthe deceased was killed because the police was involved in everythingand we mistrusted them.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand your evidence, you wentinto the shebeen and there much to your surprise you saw yourgirlfriend.  Is that so?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were having words with her aboutwhat she was doing there.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: She said she was entertaining herself.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And I gathered that you then said well,you have been looking for her.  Were you annoyed when you foundher there?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I was not annoyed.

JUDGE WILSON: What time was it?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I cannot remember the time, but itwas late, towards nine o'clock.

JUDGE WILSON: And while you were having words with yourgirlfriend, the deceased came up.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And he joined the two of you and got involvedwith you.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, he just grabbed me by my clothes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that what made you cross that he didthis in front of your girlfriend?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, that is not the reason.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't it a very annoying thing for someman to come and grab you like that for no reason at all?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, that was very annoying, but youknow not to an extent of killing him.

JUDGE WILSON: Then he produced a gun.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you had to get out of the shebeen.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you leave your girlfriend behind?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: With him, he was still there.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I left the two of them behind.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gubuwe, you have testified that you knewthe deceased because you both stayed in Pumulung.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How long had you both been staying in thesame area prior to his death on the 25th December 1991?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I knew Boetie in 1991, that was thesame year.  It wasn't even over a year that I've known him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How long in terms of months, Mr Gubuwe? Had you just known him for a day before you killed him?  Had youknown him for a week, for a month, two months?  If you could assistus with an estimation of the period?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It can be a period of seven to sixmonths.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You've also further testified that you gotthe order from Mr Thulu.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the order you got was in December 1990,is that correct, from Mr Thulu?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what is the precise nature of the orderthat you got from Mr Thulu in December 1990?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: He said as the members of the SDUswe are there to protect the community in all respects so thatthe people in Maokeng can live safely.  So that they can takepart in political activities in a rightful way.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you murdered the deceased in compliancewith that order, is that correct?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: There is only one thing which is puzzlingme, Mr Gubuwe, why did you have to wait for seven months to executean order from your Commander?  Can you explain that to us?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: What I want the Committee to knowis that the person who gave us a command, he didn't say go andkill the policeman.  He was speaking from the knowledge that healready had and he knew that the police were involved in the violencearound Maokeng and not only a few police, it was a group of police,and we didn't know of the time and the place where the enemy wouldbe but now when the enemy approaches you have to act.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Mr Gubuwe, you knew for seven monthswhere the enemy was and you didn't attack?  Didn't you know forseven months where the deceased was whom you perceived as theenemy?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I didn't take the deceased as myenemy for the seven months because we've never exchanged wordswith him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When did you know him to be a Municipal Policeman? When did you first become aware that he was a Municipal Policeman?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I saw him wearing a uniform.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when was that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It was about June/July 1991.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You must have held meetings as SDU membersfrom time to time.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And presumably during those meetings youwould discuss your programmes of action, would I be correct inassuming that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Had you ever discussed with your membersyour intention to kill Mr Gubuwe as soon as you discovered thathe was a member of the Municipal Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Can you please repeat your question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you at any stage discuss with the membersof the SDU in the many meetings you might have held of your intentionto kill Mr Gubuwe because he was a Municipal Policeman?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No.   We've never discussed anythingin the meeting that he should be killed.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if you will allow me.  I understandthe question to be Mr Gubuwe who was killed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, it is the wrong name.  I intended tomean the applicant.  Thank you.  Do you still maintain your answernow that I have been corrected by your counsel?  You understandthe question?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I would like you to repeat your question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you still give us the same answer in viewof the correction given by your counsel that you never discussedthe issue of killing the deceased with other members of the SDU?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I am still giving that answer;  we'venever discussed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When did you become a member of the SDU?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: In 1990. In December.

SISI KHAMPEPE: During that period are you aware of any killingsthat members of the SDU might have been involved in, insofar asthe police were concerned?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Are you referring to the time whenI joined the SDU?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I wasn't aware because I havejust been from Tabong in Welkom.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Prior to the killing on the 25th December1991, had you become aware of any killings made pursuant to theorders given by Mr Thulu, which killings were made by the membersof the SDUs?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: December 1991?

SISI KHAMPEPE: December 1991, prior to the death of Mr Gubuwe,or prior to the death of the deceased.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Can you please repeat the full question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Between the time you joined the SDU, whichis in 1990, until the time when the deceased was killed, are youpersonally aware of any killings made by members of the SDU againstmembers of the police in general?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I don't remember of any memberskilling the police in general.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Gubuwe.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Gubuwe, I wouldlike you to listen attentively to this one.  You are remindedof the reason why we are here, then I think you will realise thatyour application here, we have not established who helped youto fill in your statement as it is filled in in Afrikaans.  Whohelped you to do this?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That application form was given tome by kolonel Els and I filled it in on my own, but because Icouldn't deal with Afrikaans and I was given  limited time, becausethe fax arrived while I was still in gaol on the day I made myapplication and my application was urgently needed and they giveme the Afrikaans application and I told kolonel Els that I can'treally go (indistinct) because I am dealing with this in Afrikaansand then he said there is no time and he faxed the application.

UNKNOWN: Is this Afrikaans your own Afrikaans whichyou wrote with your own hand?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am the person who wrote there.

UNKNOWN: Is this Afrikaans written here written byyou?