Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR TSHABALALA: Unfortunately we didn't even find any guns.  I was actually surprised because I thought that we were gong to find more guns.  I couldn't even trust my friend when he told me he couldn't find guns inside the house and then I went inside the house as well and searched.

MR SEWPAL: How long after that did the police arrive?

MR TSHABALALA: More than an hour.  I think it was more than an hour, it wasn't a short time, it was a long time.

MR SEWPAL: Did you also find some liquor in the deceased's house?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, we did.

MR SEWPAL: And what did you do with it, if anything?

MR TSHABALALA: Myself and accused number 3, we drank that alcohol.

MR SEWPAL: How do you feel about the fact that you killed this person on that day?

MR TSHABALALA: I feel remorse and I would like God to forgive me and also the deceased.  What happened was terrible, but later when I looked at this, I saw that this was just like death, one doesn't know when he or she is going to die, but I'm actually feeling remorse and this is why I came here, to tell this Commission.  I think I actually harassed and put the deceased in terrible pain.  It was better to take his guns, not to burn his body and not to kill him.  I am here simply because I need forgiveness from God.

MR SEWPAL: Had your mother not been killed during 1988, do you think that you would have still been involved in this killing?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I wasn't.  The reason I did this, it was because I had no shelter, I will go to accused number 3 and ask for shelter and go back home and there was no home, because my mother had been burned, the house had been burned down and I was left with no-one, no shelter, no-one.  My family was gone and I was in trouble, I was in serious problems.

MR SEWPAL: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sewpal.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Tshabalala, did you apply for amnesty for this incident?

MR TSHABALALA: No, initially I didn't put amnesty application, but later I did.

MR MAPOMA: What ...(intervention)

MR TSHABALALA: I am sickly.  When they put amnesty applications, I was in hospital, I wasn't in prison and then later when I came back I put my application forward.

MR MAPOMA: Suppose that you received the firearms, what were you going to do with those firearms?

MR TSHABALALA: I was going to ask my co-accused to go and kill those people who attacked my home and killed my family.

MR MAPOMA: So you want to get these firearms in order to revenge the killing of your mother?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Before you cut the parts of the deceased person, where was the dog?

MR TSHABALALA: In front of the car.  He had it tied there.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Interpreter did you say it was tied there?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The dog?

INTERPRETER: Yes, the dog was tied up there in front of the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: How far was the body from the place where the dog was?

MR TSHABALALA: Very close, like from here to the other room and the car was parked next to and the boiler ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: Would you point out how far the dog was from the body, just give an indication in this room.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I can try.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, please do.

MR TSHABALALA: From here to the other room, that light outside through that door, that light which is lit outside that door and there's a boiler there and the car there and the dog.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabalala, can't you show in that way, in that direction because we can't see behind us now, our vision is not open to where you're pointing.  Can you point from where you're sitting towards the back of the hall?

MR TSHABALALA: From where I'm sitting to the corner of the room, the car is right here and the boiler is there.  It's not far.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the distance between where the dog was tied up and where the body was lying?

MR TSHABALALA: The car was parked right there.  In front of the car there's a dog and then the body was closer to the boiler and then there's a dairy in the middle.

CHAIRPERSON: Now is the boiler where you are sitting, more or less, and is the car in the corner at the back there of the hall?

MR TSHABALALA: The boiler is right where the applicant is seated and the body is right next to the boiler and then the car and the dog is right at the corner of the room and we took the parts from where I'm seated and then we went to that corner and gave the dog those organs.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand.  It's a sort of a distance of about 15 metres, I should imagine, that the applicant is trying to point our from where he's sitting towards the end of the hall, but we've got the idea.  You say in between there was a dairy as well?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there's a dairy as well, next to the boiler, it has been a long time, I'm not certain about my estimations.  It wasn't far from each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, thank you, we have a picture of what you are explaining.  Sorry, Mr Mapoma, carry on.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  And how far was the dog from the car?

MR TSHABALALA: The dog was very close to the car in front of the car.

MR MAPOMA: Was it about the gentleman behind you?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, exactly like that, the one behind me is the car and in front here, where I'm seated, that's where the dog was.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about a metre.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the car where Sibusiso Tshabalala was searching the weapons, is it so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: You say in your evidence you said after your mother was killed, you went to seek advice from your co-accused and they told you that there's a white man ...(intervention)

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And then they told you that there is a white man who has got guns, do you remember that?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, accused number 3 told me so.

MR MAPOMA: And that is how you learned of the deceased person?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, Chairperson.  Mr Tshabalala, if you look on page 21 to 23 of the bundle there's a statement which it would appear you made to the TRC investigator.  Do you see that?  It seems as though it's your thumbprint there.  Do you remember making this statement?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now in that statement, it states that you said the deceased was the first person who fired at the applicant when we entered the gate, is that correct, that the deceased fired first?  In paragraph 2, it's typewritten on page 19.

MR TSHABALALA: No, I didn't say so.

ADV BOSMAN: And then it says, paragraph 3, that you said that no parts were removed from the body.  Did you say that?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I don't think I've said so.  I don't know, maybe it is because when they came I was sick, but I don't remember saying such a thing.

ADV BOSMAN: And in paragraph, it says that you said
"I learned when I was in Westville Prison that the applicant was a member of the ANC"
is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: What I said is that I knew that he was a supporter, he didn't have a membership card of the ANC but he was a supporter.

ADV BOSMAN: So if I can just go back to paragraph 2, you said that Pilane had intended to buy cattle from the deceased.

MR TSHABALALA: I have no knowledge of this and I cannot comment on something that I don't know.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Your attack on the deceased when you went to raid his home on this day, did you consider that to be some for of revenge on him because he was supplying arms to the IFP?