Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he never complained to me.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  Are there any other questions you wish to put?

MR ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV GCABASHE: If I could just clarify very quickly.  The last few answer you gave when the Chairman asked about assaults, you are really talking about the beating and banging against the wall as opposed to the torture that we spoke about earlier - just for clarity.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, there's a difference.  When you bang someone against the wall or beat him up with your fists or something, there would be marks on the body.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR ROUX: You mentioned now, the names of du Plessis, Raath, Niewoudt, Roelofse, Buzani and yourself, what was the role that Mr Roelofse played?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would come from time to time, not frequently and he would help in the interrogation.

MR ROUX: Did he ever actively take part in the torturing?

GINOTRY DANSTER: If I remember correctly, I think twice he took part.

MR ROUX: And the other people you mentioned today, what was their position to actively taking part in torturing?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Niewoudt and Roelofse would come together twice, they would ask questions.  They must have used the torturing machine twice.

MR ROUX: What can you remember in regard to the sleep that Mr Kondile had during his period of detention?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Could you repeat your question please.

MR ROUX: What can you remember in regard to Mr Kondile's sleeping habits during the period of detention?

GINOTRY DANSTER: What do you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Kondile sleep during the day or did he sleep during the night?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After we had interrogated him and we would go to sleep, he would sleep as well.

CHAIRPERSON: And to your knowledge, did he have any difficulty sleeping?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't know what you mean, please clarify your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the interrogation done at night or during the day?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sometimes we would deprive him of sleep so that he would tire.

MR ROUX: Can you remember anything about a doctor involved in this case?

GINOTRY DANSTER: There's an old man that arrived there and apparently he was a doctor, a white man. We were then given orders just to ask him questions and not to ill-treat him.  He got some medication, tablets.

MR ROUX: Who was the person who was giving these orders?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Captain du Plessis.

MR ROUX: Do you know a man called Dirk Coetzee?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, I met him once before.

MR ROUX: Can you tell the Commission if Dirk Coetzee had anything to do with this case.

GINOTRY DANSTER: When we were investigating the matter Captain du Plessis said that Sizwe Kondile was a top terrorist from the Eastern Cape.  The Pretoria anti-terrorist squad would come as well to get information.
	Dirk then arrived, he was with Mr van Rensburg and Captain du Plessis was in Jeffrey's Bay.  They spoke or talked at the side - the two of them, after that the gentlemen left - Coetzee.

MR ROUX: Did you at that stage already know that the person was Dirk Coetzee?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Not at that stage, no.

MR ROUX: When did you find that out?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After a while when I already stopped working for the police.  I saw an article in the newspaper, I saw his face in the newspaper and I then remember that it's the man that had arrived at Jeffrey's Bay.

MR ROUX: Do you know anything about Komatie ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly stop for a minute.  You said you saw this person Coetzee with van Rensburg, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was with Mr van Rensburg.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  And then you immediately continued and said Mr du Plessis was in Jeffrey's Bay.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, he was in Jeffrey's Bay.

ADV DE JAGER: And did Mr Coetzee talk to van Rensburg or did he talk to du Plessis or were the three of them together, what was the position?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The three of them were talking at the side.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they visit the cells or the room where Kondile was kept?

GINOTRY DANSTER: In the room that we were sitting in.

ADV DE JAGER: All three of them?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The two of them arrived and Captain du Plessis was inside.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he already inside with Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And at that stage, were you inside too?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And Raath, where was he?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was present.

ADV DE JAGER: So in the end the three of them and you and Raath and Kondile were all present in this room?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they ask anything from Mr Kondile at that stage?

GINOTRY DANSTER: They did not ask him any questions, they read what he had written.

ADV DE JAGER: Did anybody ask him whether he's well or whether there's anything wrong?

GINOTRY DANSTER: They did not talk to him, they spoke to Captain du Plessis.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

MR ROUX: What do you know about Komatiepoort?  Do you know anything about Komatiepoort?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After he had given us certain information, Captain du Plessis said himself, Raath and myself must go to Komatiepoort where there were weapons.
	They said that we must stop investigating the matter for a while because we're going to prepare for a journey to Komatiepoort.  I was then taken home and they said that I must wait for him, they are going to fetch me - they did not arrive.  That was during the weekend.  On the Monday when I reported at the office I heard that Raath and Captain du Plessis had already left.  I carried on with my own work at the office and I never saw Sizwe again.
	After a few days Raath came back because I was working with him.  At the security police branch you would work as partners.  When Raath came back he said they had taught Kondile a lesson and he said in Afrikaans: "We taught him a lesson, his brains were splashed all over".  I asked him what he meant because they had left me behind.  
	He asked if I really didn't know what he was talking about.  He did not give me any further information, I made my own conclusions that something drastic had happened.

MR ROUX: Do you know the person called Johan Coetzee?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR ROUX: Can you tell if he has anything to do with this case?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He arrived in Port Elizabeth, he was the head of the security police, he was a general at the time.  Before Captain du Plessis left with Sizwe, whilst we were still interrogating him, he said that the case was very important and we had to work hard because Sizwe Kondile was a top terrorist.
	Even Mr Johan Coetzee was going to arrive.  He then arrived together with him in Jeffrey's Bay.  They looked at what Sizwe had written down, they spoke with each other and then they left.

JUDGE PILLAY: Was that the second time that Coetzee came there? - Johan Coetzee.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I saw him once.

JUDGE PILLAY: You say he came there with Captain du Plessis.

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR ROUX: You say Johan Coetzee was a General at that stage, do you know what happened to him in terms of police ranks later on?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After that he was the Commissioner of Police.

MR ROUX: I understand that this statement was taken by you by Mr Rajeee Marugaan, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR ROUX: Was anything shown to you, any records, any minutes, any statements or affidavits before you made your statement for Mr Marugaan? - in front of him.

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

MR ROUX: Mr Chairman, that's the evidence in chief.

ADV DE JAGER: When Mr Coetzee - that's General Coetzee, came down - Johan Coetzee, with Mr du Plessis, where was Kondile at that stage?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was in the room that we were using.

ADV DE JAGER: Not in the cells.

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they visit him in the room or did they only pass along?