Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Your counsel has been given a copy of a section of an amnesty application which sets the details out.  We have deleted some names because they had not at that stage been given notice, but I will tell you what we said.  I firstly want to get clarity. Are you saying it was only yourself and Major Grobbelaar from Protea who was there?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, that is not what I said.  I can't remember the names but I said that there were about five or six of us.

MR VALLY: This is what it reads and this is a document I have given your counsel.
"After the arrival of De Kock and one other  Mabotha was taken to a farm that was from time to time used by the security branch of Marble Hall.  On this farm Mabotha was interrogated and seriously assaulted.  He was hit, kicked and tubed.  He was also hung upside down.  Most of the persons present took part in the assault.  I also took part in the assault.  Members of the security branch of Marble Hall were also present.  I cannot remember the names of the persons.  Members of the Soweto security branch who were present were...."
And we have blanked out the names -
"... and myself.  De Kock ... "
And we have blanked out the name ...
"... of Vlakplaas were also present.  During the interrogation Mabotha gave certain information on the identity of his comrades, where they could be and also where arms had been hidden.   Later Mabotha was taken to the Soweto security office at Protea.  Two teams of Vlakplaas were also present, mostly Askaris".
Let's deal with the first part.  Do you recall this assault, this vicious assault at this farm in Marble Hall at all?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I know nothing of an assault and Mabotha was not assaulted in my presence.

MR VALLY: Do you recall him being taken back to Protea police station where he was assaulted by both security branch members of Protea as well as by Askaris?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, I said that I thought he was brought back to Johannesburg but I have no knowledge of any assault.

MR VALLY: You don't know what happened to him after you saw him at Groblersdal.  Is that what you are telling us?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: Other than the fact that you heard he was given over to Mr De Kock at some point.  Other than that.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, I can't remember all the details of what happened that day but this is what I testified.

MR VALLY: You didn't take part in any assault whatsoever on Mr Mabotha?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Not at all, Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: You witnessed no one taking part in any assault whatsoever on Mr Mabotha?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Not at all, Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: Who was in charge of this investigation into Mr Mabotha?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I am not certain.

MR VALLY: Mr Du Toit, the one thing you are sure of, in paragraph 11, is that you have no knowledge of any instruction given by Col Potgieter to Col De Kock to kill Mr Mabotha.  You state in your paragraph 11 "Ek is in kennis gestel" about this issue.  Who gave you this information?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: My legal representative, Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: Before your legal representative told you this you had no knowledge of this?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I know that Mabotha died but of what Col Potgieter was supposed to have said I have no knowledge.

MR VALLY: How did you find out that Mr Mabotha was dead?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I think it was in the newspapers or I think it was around Col De Kock's hearing.

MR VALLY: Do you recall how Mr Mabotha was killed?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair I heard.  I don't know whether it is the truth but that he was blown up with explosives.

MR VALLY: And the first time you herd about it was in the newspaper?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I can't remember whether it was the newspapers or the news or maybe a conversation with police officers but I heard it.

MR VALLY: When was the last time you saw Mr Mabotha?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is difficult.  I might still have seen him a couple of days after his arrest but as far as I can remember the last time was with his arrest.   It is possible.  His investigation officer shared an office with me so it is possible that I saw him in the offices again.

MR VALLY: This is incredible.  Now you say you possibly have seen him.  You shared an office with the person who was the investigating officer.  Who was this?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I think you have distorted my question.  I said we share offices with the investigating officers.  I don't know who was the investigating officer in this case.  I might have seen him again.  I don't say that I did.

MR VALLY: You had no interest whatsoever in finding out what happened to this Mr Mabotha after you arrested him and after you took an affidavit from him and after you made an affidavit?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, after my statement I gave the statement to murder and robbery, to the investigating officer of the Stompie Seipei case and I left it there and I went on with my personal dockets.  I didn't have time to interfere with other peoples' dockets.

MR VALLY: Why did you make this affidavit?  I pointed out to you you made it the 21st March.  Why did you make it, the affidavit I read to you earlier.  Your affidavit.  Why did you make it?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It was about the Stompie Seipei case and I can't remember whether I was asked by the investigating officer or whether I was instructed but I had to give such a statement to murder and robbery.

MR VALLY: Why did murder and robbery take the affidavit from you?  Why wasn't it the security branch who took the affidavit from you?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I don't understand the question.

MR VALLY: The affidavit that you made was made before an officer in the security branch.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It was a normal arrest statement.  One has to do such a thing after arresting somebody and I had to give it to murder and robbery because they handled the Stompie Seipei case.

MR VALLY: Who did you give it to in murder and robbery?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: If I remember correctly it was  Colonel Dempsey, I think he was Captain Dempsey at the time.

MR VALLY: I just want to point out to you that is a ferther involvement in the Stompie Sipei matter besides the arrest of Mr Mabotha.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, I want to say it clearly that I had nothing to do with the Stompie Seipei case.  In the subpoena I dealt with it.  My statement is around the subpoena.  I had nothing to do with the murder, the abduction, et cetera of Stompie Seipei.  That I might have arrested Mabotha later and conveyed information I don't think is the same as having anything to do with the Stompie Seipei case.  Mr Chair, I am not trying to hide anything.  I speak straight and his questions are distorted.

MR VALLY: You were part of the opsporings ondersoek eenheid in Soweto were you not?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: In view of the allegations made against Mrs Madikizela Mandela, weren't you people at security branch very interested in nailing this very prominent political activist in Soweto?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair I am an investigating officer.  I received -  opened dockets daily.  If there was a docket in this regard I would have investigated it.   It was not my task to gather information around Mrs Mandela or anything else to do with her.

MR VALLY: The information gathering section ... these issues were pursued at all.  For example the allegation that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in her own handwriting had given a certain note to this Mr Mabotha.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I have no knowledge of any further information or whether there was one.

MR VALLY: Did you make any enquiries about this?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: There was a long statement taken from Mr Mabotha while he was detained in terms of section 29.  Are you aware of that statement?