Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

CHAIRPERSON: As a member of the SDU, did you consider it necessary that you must be present to hear what the Commander was going to say often concerning the fate of these individuals?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I did but the Commander did not instruct me to be part of the group that left.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect the Commander to call you to come?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the people who went with the deceased to the veld, called by the Commander?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he call them by their names?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I am not sure about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when he called them?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I was not present, that is why I am saying how he actually called them, because I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that they were called by him?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: He is the one who was in charge of the organisation, he was the one who was making orders.

CHAIRPERSON: But you see as I understand your evidence, you said that the people who went there, were people who were called by the Commander to go there.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't go there because the Commander didn't call you?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I am asking you how do you know  that these are the persons - were called by the Commander to go to the place where the deceased were killed?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I have already indicated that I am not sure because I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you left, did you tell the Commander that you were now leaving?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I did not tell him.

CHAIRPERSON: How was the Commander going to find you, if you leave without you telling him?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: It is because he was not at Bulelwa's corpse.  I went back to my place when the community started dispersing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that.  You expected that the Commander would call you, but how was he going to call you if you leave without telling him that you are now going to your house as a member of the SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Would you please repeat your question Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: You were a member of the SDU, you were waiting for the Commander Nxeba Ndondolo to give an instruction to go to the veld with the rest?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What I am asking you now is because you had just left without informing him that you were now leaving, I am now leaving, going back home, how was he supposed to know where you were if he wanted to use you?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: He did not know where I resided.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  In the SDU, was a member required to patrol the area where he was living in or would a member patrol even other Blocks where he did not live?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: A member would not patrol in an area where they did not reside, they patrolled all the Blocks.

MR MADASA: So at the time Buthelezi called that meeting, Block F was patrolled but not by members of F Block?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.  It was being patrolled by members of the Self Defence Unit, the one that patrolled Muleleki, the whole of Muleleki.  Such that this is how I realised that there was going to be conflict if another SDU is formed where there is this one existing already.

MR MADASA: So Buthelezi wanted  F people to patrol F Block?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: Which was not policy of the SDU?  That was not the policy of the SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: And then you say but the SDU members who lived in F, were few, it was only you and another person?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MADASA: .

CHAIRPERSON: You were in Block F, but you didn't patrol Block F, is that right?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I was in Block F, but I was patrolling the whole 6, including Block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Including Block F?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned I think it is that there were approximately 45 members of the SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Of this 45, only two stayed in Block F?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mtshali, you may return to your seat.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I don't know Chairperson, whether I can have my request.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to discuss that with your counsel first?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No.  I can also present this here if you can give me the right to show.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Thank you Chairperson.  I would request families of those who lost their children, please forgive me.  I did not like what happened.  The members of the Self Defence Units did not like this, we are therefore applying for amnesty.  We will meet with our counsel so that we can meet with the next of kin, especially the women, Mavuso's mother in particular.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mtshali.  You may return to your seat.
WITNESS EXCUSED
	We will take the tea adjournment now, we will return at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, have you now had enough time to consult with your witnesses?

MR MADASA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay very well, shall we start?

MR MADASA: Mr Chairperson, may I call Bulelwa Ndwane, as a witness for the applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ma'am, what language are you going to speak?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: I will speak in Xhosa.

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  In 1993, where were you staying?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: I stayed at Muleleki, Extension 2, Block F.

MR MADASA: Do you know the applicants?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, I do know them.

MR MADASA: How do you know them?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: I know them because they were members of SDU patrolling at Muleleki.

MR MADASA: Do you know which areas in Muleleki they patrolled?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, I do know.

MR MADASA: Which areas?  Did you belong to any organisation?

MR MALAN: Sorry, may we just hear which areas they were patrolling?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: I was a member of the ANC.

MR MADASA: She said they patrolled A to F.  Did the SDU patrol all the Blocks in Muleleki?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, they patrolled all the Blocks.

MR MADASA: During that time, did you belong to any structure?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, the ANC.

MR MADASA: Did you hold office?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: No.

MR MADASA: You were an ordinary member?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, I was an ordinary member.

MR MADASA: Did you belong to a street committee or civic or women's league?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: No, I was not a member of the street committee, but I would go to the women's league meetings.  I was not a member of the women's league, but I did attend the meetings.

MR MADASA: Was the community at F in December 1993, satisfied with the patrols of the SDU to your knowledge?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: According to my knowledge, or I never heard anyone complaining about the SDU or the way they patrolled.

MR MADASA: Now, is there a child who stayed with you at your place who belonged to an organisation?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, I stayed with my youngest sister, Nomfundu Ndwane, she was a member of the ANC Youth League, she was the Secretary of the ANC Youth League.

MR MADASA: What is here name?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Nomfundu Ndwane.

MR MADASA: Did you know Bulelwa who is now deceased?

NOMBUNISO NDWANE: Yes, I knew her.

MR MADASA: How did you know her?