Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Can you give any reason why you are unable to remember that date on the 21st April 1993?  Why you are unable to remember that there was an election of the Mayor of the 10th March?  I mean this being an important event and you had been questioned just over a month after the election of the Mayor?

UNKNOWN: That is completely correct, I could not remember the precise date because during 1990 I had a motor cycle accident and I did not record dates on a daily basis.

UNKNOWN: So who assisted you with this recollection?  Who assisted you with your recollection of the date?

UNKNOWN: Of this date of the 10th March?  I discovered it myself when I studied these papers.

UNKNOWN: And you are now certain that if your wife states that the parcel was delivered before your daughter's birthday her evidence would be wrong and yours would be correct that it was delivered long after her birthday?

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] say long after, I'd say about ten days after in terms of the record.

UNKNOWN: But before her birthday?

UNKNOWN: Not before her birthday.

UNKNOWN: That's according to your evidence.

UNKNOWN: According to my information regarding the date, in terms of the election of the Mayor because that took place on the 10th March according to the record.

UNKNOWN: Now you've also stated that you didn't think that the firearm which was delivered to Mr Derby-Lewis was unlicensed?  Why did you think it was licensed?

UNKNOWN: I had nothing to do with his firearms, I knew that he possessed a firearm because he wore it on his person but regarding that specific firearm I had no knowledge.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR MALENDI: Mr Du Randt, do I understand your evidence to say that you were going to Pretoria with your wife on the morning after the firearm was delivered to Mr Derby-Lewis, had nothing to do with your daughter's birthday?  Your visit to Pretoria that day had nothing to do with your daughter's birthday?

UNKNOWN: I will reiterate.  Wednesdays we had the prayer hour and every Thursday we would visit our daughter in Pretoria.  He birthday was approaching, her birthday is on the 29th February, I can't say what the exact day would have been in that year but we always visited our daughter on Thursdays.  Sundays we had church services, Mondays and Tuesdays we had meetings, so Thursday was the only day upon which we could visit our daughter.

MR MALENDI: No but I'm asking a specific question, I'm not generalising.  I'm not asking you what you normally do, I'm asking you - your visit to Pretoria on the day on which the firearm was handed over to Mr Derby-Lewis, did your visit to Pretoria have nothing to do with your daughter's birthday?

UNKNOWN: I would answer yes - in preparation for her birthday and possible visits from family members and so forth.

MR MALENDI: Was it the aim of your visit?

UNKNOWN: The aim was not specifically regarding the birthday but as I've said we visited our daughter on Thursdays.

MR MALENDI: But was that in preparation for her birthday?

UNKNOWN: I cannot confirm that.

MR MALENDI: But what is your recollection regarding that?

UNKNOWN: My wife and children say that it was that weekend when the firearm or the jersey parcel was delivered and I cannot agree with that.

MR MALENDI: I must ask you once more - the aim of your visit to Pretoria - did it have anything to do with your daughter's birthday?

UNKNOWN: I cannot confirm whether it had something specifically to do with her birthday but we always visited her on Thursdays.

MR MALENDI: Now your wife says that it had everything to do with the birthday.

UNKNOWN: Well what she says and what I've said could differ.

MR MALENDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you by occupation?

UNKNOWN: Just one moment please.  I am a house owner Mr Chairman, I work with properties.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time in 1993?

UNKNOWN: I was a businessman and I owned property which I would put up for lease.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever have occasion to tell Mr Derby-Lewis that you had made a statement to the police?

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You never told him the contents of your statement?

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Du Randt you have stated in your testimony with relation to the date which was written there in the statement to the police - it was given by the police, those were your words?

UNKNOWN: It was given by the police, yes.  The first one was the 31st March.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he say given or written?

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chair, I understood his words to be given.   What do you mean by that?

UNKNOWN: No one was certain of the date and they suggested that it would be approximately the 31st March.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know the exact date at that stage?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR PRINSLOO: During this meeting where the Mayor would be elected, where would it take place?

UNKNOWN: In a town hall.  That would be in the town hall of Krugersdorp and the Committee Hall would be above that.

MR PRINSLOO: And where would the council meetings take place?

UNKNOWN: Also in that hall.

CHAIRPERSON: You are second round of re-examination is it?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, with respect, that question arose from what the Committee asked.

UNKNOWN: But with due respect Mr Prinsloo, I think the witness stated that the date on which has been amended was written not given by the police?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, the evidence which he gave in Afrikaans was that it was suggested by the police.  Just a moment please Chairperson.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes let's proceed.

MR PRINSLOO: What time do you intend taking the adjournment, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Considering that we started very late and it's after twelve we'll carry on until lunchtime, we won't have a break.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.  The following witness Mr Chairman is Mrs Venter.   The witness is present - Mrs Venter - she is Afrikaans speaking but she does understand English.

MAUREEN VENTER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mrs Venter, your spouse is Mr Stephanus Venter who also testified to this Committee, is that correct?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know Mr Derby-Lewis the applicant on your right?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes I know Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR PRINSLOO: Since when have you known him?

MAUREEN VENTER: I would say that I know him for about 15 or 16 years.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that during 1993 you acquired a property or your husband acquired a property in Krugersdorp?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And I can show you an Agreement or Deed of Sale that would be EXHIBIT AK - there are copies for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that necessary?

MR PRINSLOO: The date is of importance, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not burden us with records of documents, is there any dispute about the date Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: We'd be prepared to admit that that is the date on which it was entered into but we'd like to look at it and see.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well Mr Chairman, I see the 16th February here.  The document has no stamp on it as one would have expected but I don't take any point on it, we reserve our rights should anything emerge but it isn't necessary at this stage to hand in the document.  We'll accept that the document is dated the 16th February.

MR PRINSLOO: The other important point which I am referring to, Madame, I'm showing you the document which has been submitted to the Committee, if you will look at the second page on paragraph 4, you will see that it says occupational tenancy and rentals.  On which date did you take occupation?

MAUREEN VENTER: From the 28th February 1993.

MR PRINSLOO: And is that for the property in Krugersdorp?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.