Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In brief, Jogolo was also an accused and who is dead, was killed by IFP, was killed by the ZP and Mr Mkhize.
	Then we left at the same time with other comrades, to the police at Umkomaas, we met the police on our way.  There was a container, a special container where police were, but we were referring to the police at Umkomaas, we left there and then to report the case that Mr Mkhize and the ZP are actually shooting at us and the IFP members were amongst them.
	Jogolo, the late Jogolo,  was also shot.  We went to the police.  There were two SAP's who were Indians inside the van.  The police then, the shop was already burnt.  We went with the police, we went to the tuck shop, as we were approaching, they were in their white HiLux, in a van.  We followed.
	The police actually used the sign, the police sign.  We actually tried to stop the HiLux, but the HiLux didn't stop until we reached it near by the supermarket, near by Ward 6.  The police asked him why did he shoot Jogolo.
	And he said these kids are shooting and actually showed that the windscreen was shot.  What was done by the police there, it was evident to me that the police are actually working together with the IFP.  They took me there and then and they said they will charge this people at Umkomaas.
	Then they said ...

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, if I can interrupt you.  All I wanted to find out is when you were complaining, was there a stage when you were able to furnish names of the police who were involved, or it was difficult to furnish names?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It is difficult, but one police did agree that he is ZP.  I can't remember the surname.

MR SIBANYONI: Before Mkhize was killed, was there a stage where you sat down and took a decision that he should be killed, or was there any person who made that suggestion, who issued an order that Mkhize should be killed?  How did it happen?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: We met at a place, at a hill, a sort of a hill place.  We held a meeting there and strategised how to attack Mkhize and we knew that he had a gun and he had the official gun and then there and there we left to attack him.

MR SIBANYONI: Who were within that group of the people who met?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: These are the comrades, Palela Hlongwa, Fanie Mbutho, Jogolo, Mabuno Hlongwa and the rest did not actually go there, because there were five of us.
	The others went back, they did not go to attack.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you referring on the day he was killed, or are you referring on the first attempted attack on him?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I am referring to the day when we killed, attacked him.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, on those previous incidents where you said you tried to attack him, but you were unsuccessful, was there any decision taken that he should be attacked and killed?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I will briefly say that there was a decision that all of us, the comrades in defence, that Mkhize must actually be killed, because he was troubling us.  Him with the rest, but Mkhize was our main man and he was born in that area, as he has relocated.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what Mr Sibanyoni wants to know is can you recall when that decision was taken?  The decision to kill Mr Mkhize, the deceased?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I can't quite remember, it is just that it was on several times that we have tried to attack him.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question.  You said you didn't furnish the name of Mbutho, I didn't understand you properly.  Is the reason that your mind was not functioning well at the prison, or what was the reason why you didn't give all the names when you were asked to fill out that form?  What is the reason?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I will put it that I forgot, I would say that I forgot.  I actually thought that I included all three.   I must have forgotten.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Msani, how exactly did you join the SDU?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In 1990 when the ANC was unbanned, Bukela Luthuli came from a meeting where Jeff Radebe was there and the other ANC leaders were there, they came and told us the message that here at Macubeni as the IFP is troubling us and attacking us left and right, we are just in the middle of the IFP, Jeff said we should take the youth who is brave and has courage - you will actually forgive me, I stammer.
	The youth who was courageous and brave, should be chosen who would actually protect the community and would actually use the ammunition and in a meeting, which was at the mini camp, we were actually supposed to leave and go to be trained at transkei, but we couldn't go because it was too much violence, we couldn't leave for our training.

MR LAX: You have told us that you became involved in the UDF from 1985 and that there was violence in your area from that time onwards.  Is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Were you involved in resisting that violence and defending your community from that time?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I was involved.

MR LAX: These other applicants and the people who were accused with you, were they also involved in that from that time?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: How did you organise your defence during the 1980's?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: During that time, in 1980, we didn't have weapons or ammunition, we used home made guns, petrol and stones to protect the community and as well the community used to assist us because Macubeni was an IFP stronghold.

MR LAX: So the group of people that became the SDU, already existed before 1990?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: You have told us you didn't actually go for training as such?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Well, we couldn't go for training as I have explained because of the situation of the violence, we couldn't leave for Transkei.

MR LAX: What was the ANC's policies that you acted under?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It said we should protect ourselves.  We shouldn't loot, that is the ANC's policy.

MR LAX: Is that it?  You shouldn't loot and you must protect yourselves?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: And we should fight discrimination or apartheid, protect ourselves, fight against the apartheid and the IFP who was actually attacking us and disturbing us and actually in conflict with the ANC.

MR LAX: How did you fight against apartheid?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: By having masses and organising ourselves, using buses at (indistinct) and we actually go to town and actually deliver our complaints.

MR LAX: So you got involved in mass action, is that what you are saying?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: You see Mr Ngubani read you a portion of Mr Radebe's submission and he said that all your actions were carried out under the policies of the ANC, but it is clear to me that you don't really know the policies of the ANC in any great detail.  You didn't have training, you didn't have political education, how did you know those policies?
	Do you understand my question?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Please explain.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: ANC policy, we would attend workshops.

MR LAX: But you didn't attend any workshops dealing with the policies in relation to the SDU's, you didn't even have training as an SDU?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The SDU were not just the official unit, because the IFP was protected officially with the ZP, so we were the underground defence.
	The community knew that we were protecting it to a certain extent but it was not officially, like the IFP.

MR LAX: You see, I want to take you back to the point that I am getting at which is a really simple matter, and that is you agreed with Mr Ngubane when he read the portion of Mr Radebe's submission, that all your actions were carried out under the policies of the ANC.  Do you remember that?