Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

MR VAN ZYL: I believe that in all probability that is the case.  I cannot say that yes, I can recall him standing on my left and he saw.  He was with me in the room when the stuff was given to me, I cannot recall it, according to his version he was involved.

UNKNOWN: So if Kalla Botha told the Harms Commission that he knew nothing whatsoever about a project to eliminate Dullah Omar, he wouldn't have been telling the truth.

MR VAN ZYL: No, I'm not saying that.  I have just told you that as far as I know, Kalla testified that he was present when the powder was given to me.  Whether he knew what the reason was and what the purpose was for the powder, I cannot comment on.  I think that is a question that in all fairness, you must ask of him.  I cannot say whether he speaks the truth or not, I did not tell him anything of the Omar project.

UNKNOWN: What did Ferdi Barnard say at this meeting where you discussed the powder?  Did he think it was a good idea?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know.

UNKNOWN: Well he was the - as I understand your version, Mr Barnard was being sent to Cape Town because he's a man full of ideas, he's a man good at gathering intelligence, now I assume in that capacity you would have wanted his input.

MR VAN ZYL: It is possible that I may have discussed it with him, I cannot recall.  It's possible that he supported me in this regard, I cannot recall.

UNKNOWN: Who manufactured the powder?

MR VAN ZYL: I have no idea.

UNKNOWN: Now go to page 116 of bundle A, paragraph 56.  You say
"I never saw Peaches, Isgak or Barnard thereafter.  After a week I contacted Peaches, he informed me that he could not sprinkle the powder over Omar's food.  I informed Peaches to destroy the pistol and the powder and to ceased the project on Omar immediately, as previously agreed with the Regional Manager."
Now what discussion did you have with Staal Burger beforehand?

MR VAN ZYL: I had a telephone discussion with him on that specific day and told him that we cannot execute the project, and I proposed that the matter be ceased.  He gave me instruction to cease the project and that Peaches should receive instructions to destroy the pistol and powder.

UNKNOWN: Why did Mr Burger say that he thought the project should be terminated?  What was the reason he advanced?

MR VAN ZYL: I proposed to him that the project be ceased because we could not execute it and in light thereof we should cease the project, and he seconded it and he gave me that instruction.  I do not know whether there were other reasons that played a role in why he told me this.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you really believe that Peaches would destroy the gun?  After all, he had pulled the wool over your eyes relating to the printing press matter and the minibus matter.  First of all, why destroy the gun, why not just get it back?

MR VAN ZYL: It was probably part of the way we worked and that was the instruction which I received and I gave him that instruction.  I had mixed feelings whether he would destroy it or not, but on one side I would have wanted to believe that he did so.

CHAIRPERSON: I would have thought that the chances of him destroying the gun were absolutely zero.

MR VAN ZYL: I hear what you're saying, as I have said I had mixed feelings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR LAX: Sorry, how could you have mixed feelings?  I mean here's a man who's a gangster, he's involved in activities, criminal activities and you leave him with a Makarov pistol with a silencer and ammunition, is that totally irresponsible?

MR VAN ZYL: Call it irresponsible, I think today one would say it's irresponsible but at that stage I did not think about it in that way, but that is how it happened and there's nothing I can do about it now, it's water under the bridge.

MR LAX: You see I'm not meaning irresponsible in the sense you're meaning it at this stage, I agree, I didn't even think of that at the time, I'm talking about your cut-off points, I'm talking about your breach of security, these are things that you say were so important to you.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, but we worked on a basis of integrity and ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But here was a man you knew had no integrity, even on your own version you were worried about him.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, but that's what I did, what do you want me to say?  With all respect, that was the instruction that I gave to him and what happened with that firearm I do not know.  And believe me, it is not the only firearm of that origin that is in the Cape, in this vicinity, if it was not destroyed.

MR LAX: No, no, it's just that this was a one with a silencer on it.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: We've heard that most of those with silencers were generally produced locally, in the sense that the silencers were fitted locally.

MR VAN ZYL: That may be so.

MR LAX: And so, if that one were to be found it would be very easily traced back to you, because these were specially manufactured weapons.  We've heard they were - I've listened to many amnesty applications where silenced Makarovs were manufactured in Rebecca Street and distributed all over the place, used by people like Vlakplaas and so on.  So it's, you know, we're talking about weapons that were tampered with, that were used in other situations, it wouldn't have been that difficult, given the time-frame we're talking about, 1980/1990, for somebody investigating the matter to know where that weapon came from.

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, after you gave this Makarov to Peaches, weren't you so worried that he might use it for the wrong purpose that one of the reasons you decided to send Ferdi Barnard to Cape Town, was to make sure that Peaches didn't use this Makarov which you'd given to him, for the wrong purposes.  You sent Ferdi to Cape Town to make sure that it wasn't used for the wrong purpose.

MR VAN ZYL: I don't know, that may be the case.  What I do know is that where I was concerned at some stage about one of my operatives, that they might not have concurred with my instructions, was with the planting of the bomb at the Early Learning Centre and my subsequent involvement there.  It may be with regard to the firearm, I cannot recall it now.

UNKNOWN: Does that statement I've just made to you make any sense, sending Ferdi to Cape Town to watch Peaches to make sure that Peaches doesn't use the Makarov for the wrong purpose?

MR VAN ZYL: I think my primary reason why I sent Ferdi to Cape Town, as I have said, was to ascertain whether the versions that Peaches gave to me as to why he could not execute the project, that that was factually correct.  That is the reason why I sent Ferdi down to the Cape.

UNKNOWN: But was there a secondary reason, the one that I've just mentioned?

MR VAN ZYL: That could have played a role possibly, I do not know.

UNKNOWN: You can't remember.  You see, the Court in State vs Barnard was terribly interested about the reasons why Mr Barnard had been sent to Cape Town, because the charge sheet said that the reason Mr Barnard got sent to Cape Town, was to go and assassinate Adv Omar.  You were aware of that.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  You on the other hand want to give evidence that that was not the reason why Mr Barnard got sent to Cape Town.

MR VAN ZYL: It's the evidence that I gave here as well.

UNKNOWN: I'm aware of that.  In the natural course of events you were asked in that trial "Tell us, Mr van Zyl, why did you send Mr Barnard to Cape Town?"  And one of the reasons you gave, you said there were two, the one was that he must watch to see what Peaches is doing in general, in relation to getting the plan executed.  The other reason that you gave was that you were terribly worried that Peaches was going to use this Makarov for the wrong purpose.

MNR VAN ZYL: "Dit mag wees."

UNKNOWN: "Mag wees"?

MNR VAN ZYL: "Ja."

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the reference is 1870, lines 23 to 30, bundle G.