Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-12

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: The ANC Youth League took a decision that it was not politically motivated.

MS GCABASHE: Now this meeting where they took the decision, was Oupa Jeremiah Ramogatedi present, was he at that meeting, do you know?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't remember as to whether he was present or not when we discussed this issue.

MS GCABASHE: On a slightly different aspect, there has been talk of gangs in Kutsaong, Gadafi gang Zin Zin gang, it's not the evidence that has been led, it's just part of the documentation we had at our disposal.  You do not dispute, or maybe you do, that there were gangs that were fighting in the township, what is your opinion?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: At that time there were various groups of gangs.

MS GCABASHE: Now, were these two deceased, KK and Bafino part of any specific gang, to your knowledge?  Were they part of a gang?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were not members of a particular gang, they were just criminals.

MS GCABASHE: Now when ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand this.  They were just criminals, they were not part of any gangs, now what kind of things did the other gangs do?  The gangs' activities, were they not criminal?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Those people were just criminals or thieves or thugs, they were not members of a particular gang.

MS GCABASHE: The anti-crime strategy that the ANC Youth League Interim Committee had embarked on, did this involve taking steps against these other gangs as well or was your attention specifically on these two persons?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Anti-crime campaign was focused on all kinds of criminal activities, including other criminal gangs which operated in our township.

MS GCABASHE: Now in relation to these particular deceased who were killed, would you say they targeted ANC Youth League members specifically, more than anybody else in the community?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: These thugs were mainly against members of the ANC Youth League, but secondarily they used to target other members of the community who were not necessarily members or supporters of the ANC Youth League.

MS GCABASHE: Then just finally, I'd like you to draw a distinction between political motivation, and I would say that is as a member of the ANC Youth League and understanding the policies of the ANC you do certain things because you remember, you are politically motivated by the aims and objectives of your organisation, that's one thing, as against a political objective, trying to achieve a particular political objective of your organisation.  I will just take one very quick on as an example, bringing about a democratic government, just as an easy example, as a political objective of the ANC.  Where did the activities of these applicants on the 7th of September 1991, promote or fit into the objectives of the ANC, any one of the ANC's objectives.  You understand I'm trying to distinguish between motivation and objective and what the applicants did.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: There had to be free political activity within the policy of the ANC and there should be a political climate where the criminals need to be apprehended and be handed over to the police so that organisations or members of the community will be able to do their political activity without any interference.

MS GCABASHE: One final aspect, Interim ANC Youth League and the ANC Youth League when you launched it, the Interim Structure, did you talk of supporters or members where you talked of the Interim Structure?  I just wasn't too clear about that.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: In the Interim Youth League we encouraged all supporters to be legal members of the ANC, to pay their membership fees so that we would not have problems in future.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, and Honourable Committee Members, this concludes the giving of evidence by and on behalf of the applicants.
	May I mention that I have distributed a document to yourselves.  I obtained this document from another source and not this witness, hence I did not lead him on that document.  The idea was to try and show the Honourable Committee the type of structure albeit interim, that existed in Kutsaong at that stage and I would like to attention of the Honourable Committee Members to the middle of the first page where it starts off by saying:
"Structure of the Branch"
I believe this goes a long way in trying to clarify what the structures looked like, especially the Youth League Structure in Kutsaong.  Perhaps Members of the Committee may benefit from looking at this document.  That is about it for now.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Koopedi ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date of this document?

MR KOOPEDI: I have in vain tried to find the date of this document, but perusal of the middle paragraph, if I can call it so, entitled
"Introduction"
shows that there's a date of the 12th August, there's a date of the 7th of April 1991 and this give the impression that this is something between the 7th of April 1991 and September 1991, and I will explain why I say so.  I say so because one of the applicants here who appears as a Secretary Organiser, van Rooyen, is listed on this paper which would say that this document was drafted, as I say, perhaps between the 7th of April and I think the 7th of September.

ADV DE JAGER: The first paragraph says
"The local youth organisation operated as SYCO Interim Kutsaong Branch until it was constitutionally launched on the 12th of August 1990.  Since then the elected managed to run the term of office until the period of transformation, the Interim ANC Youth League Branch"
So there ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: Honourable Commissioner will admit that the document is confusing to a very large extent and my idea was really not to confuse the Committee, but to try and illustrate on the structures that existed around that time, as can be seen from this document.  Of course, reading that first paragraph does show that in fact there was an Interim Structure at that stage and this was not the launched ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we understand.	 This documents will go in as Exhibit A.  Yes?