Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would put it this way.  I was on trial on Thursday for this trial and when I arrived at Moleleki on a Friday I found one member of the ANC Youth League and he said to me: "Oscar, we want to assault these men", and I asked them: "Why", he said: "No, they are an obstacle in our way".  Can I carry on?

CHAIRPERSON: Which men was he referring to?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was referring to the SDU.

MR MALAN: Who, do you have a name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Lucky.

MR MALAN: Was the Lucky the person who approached you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MALAN: And who was the person in the SDU that they had trouble with?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They have separated themselves from the SDU at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct] came to you didn't he?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Lucky came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Lucky.  Lucky came to you, yes.   Yes?

MR MOTATA: By saying these people are an obstacle, you say he was referring to the SDU which you are a member of that SDU's, in other words, indirectly that statement was referring to you.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry that I'm giving you a hard time Mr Motlokwa but I'm again confused, if I can just find the parties involved.  You say you were on trial at the time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MALAN: You came to the township on the Friday, one of these ...[intervention]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was released on Thursday.

MR MALAN: On Thursday?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MALAN: On Friday you were approached by Lucky who was then a member of the SDU but he was a Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Before he was a member of the SDU and they separated themselves from us.

MR MALAN: Then if I heard you correctly, and I'm referring to the translation, you said:  "He said that they wanted to assault an SDU member".

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He said they wanted to assault the SDU because the SDU was an obstacle.

MR MALAN: Did he ask your permission?  You were a member of the SDU at that time, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I would shortly explain this.  I said I arrived and I was patrolling with them, even the stability was disturbing them.  That is why he came to me.  I don't know what are the reasons therefore.  Can I carry on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The same Friday night, I must say that the SDU had meetings every Friday, now I reported this to Ndondolo.  I said I met Lucky and he told me that they are going to assault you: "What have you done guys"? and he said to me they have done nothing wrong.  He said to me they have done nothing wrong.
	Ntjebe requested Vusi to write a letter to the sectional committee of the civic association so that meeting be arranged to come and solve this issue.  The letter was written on Friday, if I'm not mistaken it was delivered on Saturday morning.  Can I carry on Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The letter was sent to the chairperson of the section, Mr Mokwena.  On Monday the sectional committee replied, they said they have a meeting but it would be impossible to meet with the SDU but they will announce the date for a meeting.
	The same Monday there was a conflict, the conflict started on Monday.  Ntjebe gave me off because he said I was on trial and he said I shouldn't be patrolling, I should attend to the traditional cleansing.  At about half past eight Vusi came, I was in bed already.  He woke me up and said: "Oscar wake up, Ntjebe wants you" and I said: "No, Ntjebe ordered me not to patrol", he said: "No, he wants you, come in full".  In other words I have to come wearing the clothes for patrolling.  
	I was told that comrade Sibulelo was killed and I asked who killed her and I was not told anything.  We went to a spot where we meet before patrolling and Ntjebe sprinkled Ntelezi, which is a traditional muti, on us so that we can patrol.  It was half past nine, passed nine when we went to comrade Sibulelo's place, then we were guarding the corpse.
	Commander Ntjebe and the vice chairperson of the civic, who is Sepo, looked for transport to go to the Red Cross for the corpse to be taken to the mortuary.  Before they could even leave the area they were shot at and they stopped.  They were shot at by the ANC Youth League, they were not injured.  Luckily they managed to escape, they survived and they ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not present when they were shot at were you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was not present, we were left behind guarding the corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: You must only tell us about what you saw and not what you were told, do you understand that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment?

MR MAPOMA: I should think so Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
	Mr Motlokwa, we will now take a lunch adjournment and we will reconvene and 2 o'clock.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Thank you Sir.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, you are still under oath.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.
	Yes Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: (cont)
	Sorry Mr Chair, there is just one issue that I need clarity on.  Before we adjourned I heard Mr Chair warning the applicant not to state things that were hearsay and I need clarity on that issue.  
	I might be wrong but I was under the impression that these proceedings, because they are ...[indistinct] judicial nature, a limited amount of hearsay is admissible.  Although I do not know the parameters thereof, I just need clarity Mr Chair on that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we expect the persons who appear before us to tell us about what they actually saw because that is what we are interested in.  Hearsay may be led under limited circumstances where there isn't anyone else to give that evidence but it only effects the weight to be attached to hearsay evidence.
	We didn't want to burdened with a whole host of hearsay evidence which cannot be substantiated and the persons who give evidence in regard to those occurrences are not here to be cross-examined if necessary.  That is the point I was making to the witness.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Mr Chairperson, before the proceedings continue may I place on record that the applicant who was in jail has now been brought.  He is present here now.  I also wish Mr Chairperson to place it on record that we had a problem with the arrangement that this person be brought here.
	The prison officers say that this person an awaiting trial person and therefore they claim that he is not the responsibility of the prison warders, but the responsibility of the police and investigating officers and all that.  So they say they can bring him today to here but from tomorrow onwards he is not their responsibility. 
	We are in the meantime still arranging to get hold of the investigating officers so that we can be assured that tomorrow ...[indistinct] will be here.  So I just wanted the Committee to be aware of those difficulties that we are confronted with but we are attending to the matter, thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the procedure is in a case of an awaiting trial prisoner who is detained in prison under the Act, who is supposed to bring the person to the hearings?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, our understanding is that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What does the Act say?

MR MOTATA: I'm not sure Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you look?  Yes?