Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I was not an observer sir according to the way you put it.  I was accompanying them because if it happened that they ran away I was going to chase after them.

MR MALAN: Mr Mthembu, were they not all tied with a rope, their hands tied, tied around their necks?  This is part of the evidence before us, they were all tied to each other with a rope, is that not so?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.  They were tied up.

MR MALAN: So how do they run away that you have to chase after individuals?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Sir, it might have  happened that they got loose.

MR MALAN: But you are saying to us you walked along.  You didn't touch any of them?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you assault any of them?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MALAN: Did you carry no weapon?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I did not have a weapon in my hand.

MR MALAN: You responded to Mr Mapoma's question about the 1400 bakkie when you said it did belong to a member of the community on his cross examination, is that correct?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MALAN: In your evidence in chief my note says that you had no idea where they got the bakkie from but they had some pleasure with it, fun with it and then they drove it down the cliff.  Why did you tell us at that stage you had no idea where the bakkie was from?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I heard the rumour that this van was hijacked from a resident of Moleleki, when was this hijacked I do not know.

MR MALAN: And the bakery, did that belong to a resident of Moleleki?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: The bakery did not belong to any of the inhabitants of Moleleki but it belonged to a black man.

MR MALAN: And the Skyline?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I did not know whether it belonged to a white man or a black man.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

MR MOTATA: I've got no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why the youth were killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were they killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Shortly sir.  I don't want to relate a story.  These were the renegades.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they killed because they broke away from the SDU?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I would not say they excluded themselves from the SDU.  The reason is that they became the renegades, they became the enemy of those who were protecting the community, that is the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: What made them to be the enemy of the community?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: They were attacking the very same community of their own.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they killed because they were suspected of being involved in some criminal activities?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: It's one of the possibilities.  It's one of the points actually.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the other points?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: To give an example, well I'm not going to get too deep into this.  Within each and every organisation if two or three become or stand against the progress of that organisation they would be regarded as the renegades of that organisation.
	Now during that time of fighting, the Government of that day had ways that they manipulated to get into the organisations to bring divisions into the organisations.  You would find that a person who is well known in that organisation is killed because of this.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the other reason why they were killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: They were not stable in the ANC.  They were now on the side of this known person of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand you as saying these youth were killed because they associated themselves with a person who was perceived to be a member of the IFP?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: They themselves were under his wings.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand you as suggesting that these youth were killed because they associated themselves with a person who was perceived to be an IFP member?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: It's one of the points.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the other points for which they were killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: The weapons they used were used by the Defence Force or the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other reason why they were killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I think that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these youth not killed because they were suspected of having killed Bulelwa and Blanko?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I do not have the reality of that point sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no knowledge of that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I can't give whether they were killed because they killed Bulelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they not killed because they were suspected of having killed Blanko?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I would say it's one of the effects that lead to their death.

CHAIRPERSON: These youths were killed for a number of reasons?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes, the reasons I have already furnished.

CHAIRPERSON: So that even if Bulelwa and Blanko had not died, they would have been killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I do not know.  I do not have the certainty of what would have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why they were killed shortly after the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: According to the newspaper articles that I have found, they had been engaged in activities before Bulelwa and Blanko's death.  Now these reports lead to a point that the community lost trust on them.  Because they were now on both sides.  They were not stable.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Nothing arising Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you one question?  You say you're an operator.  How long have you been an operator at that time?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: If I am not mistaken, I had eight months.  I am not sure let me say I am not sure.

MR MALAN: You were aware that the work of the operator is to shoot when instructed to shoot?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Your question is tricky sir.  I would ask you to be specific.

MR MALAN: Well let me quote your co-Applicant, Mr Motlokwa who said that his work as an operator and if the command is to kill or to shoot then he shoots, he doesn't question.  That's the work of an operator, that's what he said.

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Your question is?

MR MALAN: My question is, are you in agreement with that statement?  That the work of an operator is, when the command comes to shoot, not to question but to shoot?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: You will not ask sir.  You will execute the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything arising?

MR MADASA: No Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mthembu.  You may return to your seat.  Yes, Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, with your permission I am very pressed.  May I ask for 5 minutes adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MADASA: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise and will you let us know when you are ready?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MADASA: I now  call Michael Armoed, Applicant No. 1.

CHAIRPERSON: What language are you going to speak sir?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
MR ?: Would you please stand?

MICHAEL ARMOED: [Sworn states]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Armoed.  Mr Madasa, yes, continue.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR MADASA: Mr Armoed, in December 1993 where were you living?

MICHAEL ARMOED: I was in Moleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: [inaudible]

MICHAEL ARMOED: I was an operator.

MR MADASA: What is an operator?

MICHAEL ARMOED: The operator was a person who shoots.

MR MADASA: At the killing in Katlehong, in that year, December 1993, were you present?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, I was present.

MR MADASA: Did you have any role that you played?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, there's a part I took.

MR MADASA: Tell us about the part you took?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Comrade Nchebe came to me.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] the killing or before the killing or the same day?

MICHAEL ARMOED: On the day of the killing of Bulelwa.

MR MADASA: Nchebe Dondolo?  The same person, okay?