Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just confer with my colleagues.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ameen, before you proceed.  Mr Tloubatla it will be recalled that your client has also made an application for amnesty in respect of the killing of somebody who is believed was a security guard.  Now you haven't led evidence in chief on that and we are of the view that at any rate that particular matter is not yet ripe for hearing, by reason of the fact that we are not satisfied that proper investigation into the matter has been done.  We feel extremely uncomfortable to adjudicate on the particular application or aspect of you client's application at this stage and unless you'd argue otherwise ... (inaudible - end of tape) such time that some reasonable effort shall have been expended in the investigation of certain aspects of the incident.  You will of course no doubt diarise the matter and keep the TRC on it's toes to (indistinct) the matter as soon as possible so that your client's should have the matter disposed of.  I do not believe that the Amnesty Committee or the TRC would just indefinitely refrain or fail to investigate the matter properly and thereby prolonging your client's agony.  I think you'd be entitled to demand of them to round up the investigations within a reasonable time and have the matter set down, but for now unless you convince us otherwise, we are of the view that that particular leg of your client's application, that is his application in respect of the killing of the person I've referred to should be stood down indefinitely.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you.  I do agree with Mr Chairman in that respect, wholeheartedly I've got no problem.  We have discussed the matter with my learned colleagues and we might actually address the committee on the matter later on but for the moment I think if the matter is stood down indefinitely I am quite comfortable with that, I have no problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that apply to the third applicant as well?

MR TLOUBATLA: No it doesn't affect Mr Hlasa, it doesn't affect him at all.  He was not involved in that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thandakubona is not involved either?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thandakubona.  I think Mr Thandakubona is involved.  Yes he is.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa is not involved in the security ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Thandakubona and Mr Mphoreng are involved.

CHAIRPERSON: That is correct.  We will therefore stand down both the applications in respect of that particular incident and for the record and in order to make issues quite clear, one of the considerations why we would like to place on record that we are not adjudicating that incident today, one of the reason why we want to place it on record is to leave the door open for the matter to be heard by a differently constituted committee and therefore that's why we want to (indistinct) have it off the rest of the proceedings.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen please proceed.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mphoreng you've given evidence to this committee and your evidence can broadly be divided into two parts, one which deals with the political conflict which you spoke so much about and the other about the incident itself as a result of which you are now applying for amnesty.  Is that correct?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: Now let us go to the incident itself, let's confine yourself for the moment just to the incident.  When these six youths were first apprehended, were you a part of the group of people that apprehended them?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was not part.

MR AMEEN: Where were you at the time that they were
apprehended?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was at Jeff's house in Orlando West.

MR AMEEN: I want to put it to you that there were two survivors out of the six and that, depending on which one of them or both of them that testify, they will say that the three applicants, that is the three of you present today applying for amnesty, were the three people who actually accosted them near the Presbyterian Church in Orlando and that a gun was pointed at them and that they were taken under gun point to two cars about two streets away.  What do you say to that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I agree that they were accosted in Orlando, but when they were apprehended I was not present.

MR AMEEN: Under threat of gunpoint again, they were forced to get into the two cars and they were brought to you comrade Jeff Lingani's (?) house where they found a group of about ten or eleven young men busy painting the house or engaged in an activity which seemed to say that they were busy painting the house.  You were at the house at the time.  Do you agree with that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There were people cleaning the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen, sorry, it's not clear in my mind.  Are we here - is the witness and yourself talking about two different things when you speak of being accosted and apprehended.

MR AMEEN: No Your Worship it's the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright so Mr Mphoreng when this people were - you admit that this young boys were arrested near the Presbyterian Church at gunpoint.  You agree with that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you saying that you were not there or are you saying you were there at that stage when that happened?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When they were arrested at Orlando East I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say it is true that they were accosted in the manner that Mr Ameen has said, why do you say, were you told by somebody that that is in fact what happened and now you agree with it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: What I agree with is that they were arrested at Orlando East and some of my comrades had firearms.  At that stage I was in Orlando West.  My comrades told me what happened.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Alright, these youths were then brought to the house and there were these other men who were present in the house.  They will say that they were taken into the kitchen of the house where there was an assortment of weapons, including guns, an axe, iron bars a motor car aerial.  Is that true?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I request the Amnesty Committee to understand that we are talking about an incident that took place twelve years back, it is therefore normal not to remember all the details related to that incident.  Nevertheless it doesn't mean those things did not happen.

MR AMEEN: You have given quite detailed evidence about for example the political conflict, remember all of that.  By your own account you were involved in a vicious assault on at least one of these youths and you don't remember the things that I'm talking about, that these weapons were there.  Have you not thought of these things during the course of your application for amnesty?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I am not saying I do not remember some of the details, yes it is true there was a firearm that was handled by me, yes it's true there was a bottle, there was a hanger.  Those are the details I remember well.

MR AMEEN: Was there a motor car aerial there as well?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Those I details I cannot remember.

MR AMEEN: Now in the kitchen, were you the only one who assaulted these six youths or were there others with you?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When the assault started I was not alone.  I have mentioned earlier on, I do not remember whether we assaulted them in the kitchen or in the bedroom, but I remember it was in the bedroom, it was myself, Kabelo ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Could you just confine your answer to what happened in the kitchen first please.  I'll ask you again, in the kitchen were you the only one who assaulted these youths or were there others with you who assaulted them?