Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV BOOYENS: Page 339, paragraph 46.  Did you arrange that 
these four members, I am sorry, we are still busy with Mr Lotz.  Did 
Mr Lotz have any previous knowledge of this operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: After he had left the vehicle there, the bomb had 
to be put there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Was that after he had left?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If  I remember correctly, Mr Snyman and I had 
a discussion with Mr Lotz and at that stage, Martiens Ras activated 
the bomb.

ADV BOOYENS: The four deceased arrived there at the 
Motherwell crossing?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: They got into the vehicle, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: They got into the Jetta?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: That is paragraph 48.  It was round about 
23h50?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: After they had driven for about 100 metres, they 
activated the sender and an explosion took place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You also mention on page 341 that you 
investigated the scene and you found a VZD3M detonator there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Was this from the Eastern Block?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words this was used by infiltrators?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Messrs Snyman and Ras did not have any 
knowledge of that?  You did that on your own?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Just by the way, you detonated the bomb?  You 
pushed the button?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you have a problem doing that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I was hesitant to do that?

ADV BOOYENS: Why?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because those were my colleagues.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you that same evening contact Colonel 
Gilbert?  At a certain stage Mgoduka was not present and at that 
stage did you make contact with Brigadier Gilbert again?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Initially it seemed that only three of these 
victims would have been there?  What did you discuss with him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I told him that because Mgoduka was not 
there, he was not working, I suggested that we should postpone this 
operation and he pertinently instructed me that I have to go and 
fetch Mgoduka from his house and that he had to accompany them as 
well.

ADV BOOYENS: After this explosion, did you mention it on the 
radio that there had been this explosion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Lotz came back to the scene?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And he realised that the motor vehicle that he 
had driven a little while ago, had been blown up?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: What did you tell him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was shocked and I told him that this was an 
authorised operation for which head quarters had given permission 
and he should not worry about this any more and he should keep 
quiet.

ADV BOOYENS: The statement that you make that head quarters 
gave permission.  Was that based on what Gilbert had told you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: So Gilbert, before you went to Pretoria, he told 
you that he had cleared this whole matter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You made false statements in which you blamed 
the ANC for this explosion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And this became part of the inquest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Justice took its course and then eventually you, 
Mr Du Toit and Mr Ras were convicted for these murders?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You have already described your broad political 
view points, but let us come back to the purpose, specifically the 
political purpose you wished to obtain with this specific case.
	As you have understood it, what was the function of the 
Security Branch, in other words what was the basis of the Security 
Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was the protection of the government of 
the day.

ADV BOOYENS: And to execute this task, the Security Branch 
had to gather intelligence for this purpose?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The fact that this intelligence network was 
negatively influenced, would this effect the ability to protect the 
government of the day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It would, yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And would it in the end make impossible the 
purpose to protect the government of the day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And you regarded it as your task and as your 
duty to prevent something like that, in other words the overthrowing 
of the government?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you support the government of the day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did.

ADV BOOYENS: And did you believe that it was necessary that 
you should act in such a way under these circumstances?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Why kill these people, why not less drastic 
measures?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was for the protection of the intelligence 
network.  For the protection of the government of the day, that it 
should not be overthrown by violence.

ADV BOOYENS: Would detention by virtue of security regulations 
Section 29, of the Internal Security Act, why according to you 
would it not have worked?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I feel that they would still have been able to 
have contact with other police officers wherever they were detained 
and after a while, after an indictment had been served they had 
access to their legal counsel.

ADV BOOYENS: And to visitors?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: And to visitors.

ADV BOOYENS: Section 29 detention could not be done all the 
time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You could not have kept them there for an 
unlimited time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Were there cases known to you where 
intelligence was smuggled from Section 29 detainees?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

ADV BOOYENS: So that could not have worked?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Should there have been sufficient evidence to 
accuse them successfully and send them to jail, would that not have 
been sufficient because they still would have been able to provide 
the intelligence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: We have already referred to the question of 
transfer, that would not have worked either?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You also refer in more detail to the political 
purpose you wish to achieve on page 48, paragraph 10 (a).

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm that that is correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And paragraph 10 (b), I think you have already 
referred to that, do you confirm that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Paragraph 11 (b), just one sentence.  And an 
instruction from Security head office which was now known to me, 
you don't know on which Gilbert's assumption that it was cleared by 
head office was based?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You did not ask?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not ask.

ADV BOOYENS: If the Commission would just bear with me Mr 
Chairman.  That concludes the evidence Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

ADV BOOYENS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: I am Hugo on behalf of 
the first applicant.  Mr Nieuwoudt, just a few aspects.