Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, Your Worship.  What happened was on that evening there was a Casspir parked on the corners of I think Thornton and Klipfontein main road, on that field there.  We always thought that there was police involvement.  We never, until the statement, I never saw the police, they never approached me.

MR LAX: If they had approached you, would you have made a statement at that time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Most probably very fearfully and under duress, but I would have, but I was in the building, I couldn't say I wasn't in the building, but we were fearful of them at the time.

MR SIBANYONI: When people gathered at the centre after the explosion, where were you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Excuse me?

MR SIBANYONI: When people gathered at the centre after the explosion, where were you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Initially I took the car to Diza Court, as I've said, or the bakkie, sorry, to Diza Court.  I mingled in with the crowd and the back and in the front of the centre and thereafter within 15 or 20 minutes, I just decided to take myself and others out of the area because we were afraid.  We were of the opinion that they would say it's Kewtown Youth is responsible for this and we would be picked up in terms of Section 29 or whatever, we would be detained and it was just normal, and we basically, at the time we basically took ourselves out of the area.  I would only come into the area at night thereafter and I wouldn't park the bakkie at my mother's place or wherever it would be easily noticeable.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, would this be an appropriate time for a short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take the tea adjournment now thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: (cont)
	Mr Alexander, just to go back, I didn't quite understand your evidence where you were talking about, I think in reply to the Commissioner's questions, that groups were led out the hall, younger children were accompanied by an older member, I didn't quite understand that and I don't want to mislead you.  Do you recall that evidence?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm saying it was the norm that we had a couple of members who were a bit older, older being in the sense of their early twenties.  The youngest members were about between 15 and 20, I said, but they would leave in groups, that's correct.

MR MARTINI: So the gist of your evidence was that the older children accompanied the younger ones home sometimes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Now on this evening, did that happen?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That would be correct, as I said earlier.

MR MARTINI: And how many children were there in these groups, or younger children, let me put it that way?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Normally it would be between, as I've said before, our unit consists of about 35 to 50 people and about 10 would be over 20, roughly.

MR MARTINI: So that evening, were there about 10 children that were accompanied by an older child, so to speak?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There were in all, when I came there, in terms of the youth, the members that counted ten roughly.  Of all the members, I think Glen Josephs was around, ...(indistinct) etc.

MR MARTINI: No, no, let me ask you this.  That evening were there a group of younger children that were accompanied home by an older child?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Right.  Now within that group - well let me put it to you this way, how many groups of younger children were there, first of all that were accompanied?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It would be one group because the members that were there would be roughly ten in terms of the youth.

MR MARTINI: So was there only one group that left accompanied by an old, 1, 2, 3, 4 older members?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, there was one group that left.  I'm not sure - the older member that would have left with them that evening was Glen Josephs.

MR MARTINI: Okay, so there was one group that left.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Now how many members were in that group?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would assume it would be in total between 8 and 9 people.

MR MARTINI: 8, 9, 10.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, Peter was counted in with the bigger ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)

MR MARTINI: He stayed behind?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He stayed behind.

MR MARTINI: But the group that left?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: About 9 people, 8 or 9 people.

MR MARTINI: Including the older person?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Now were they all Kewtown Youth members?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And were they all the members that were there, for the Kewtown Youth Movement, other than Mr  Williams?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, that's correct.

MR MARTINI: So by the time you arrived, all the Kewtown Youth members that were there, willingly, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were just finishing off, ready to exit, ja.

MR MARTINI: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were finishing off, ready to exit.  Some of the people, the meeting was unwinding and as it unwinded, some people came out and they were preparing to leave, that's correct.

MR MARTINI: But there was an older one that was going to accompany the younger ones?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: So that they group together and leave.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: So did you see them leave?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was in the foyer, I saw them leave.

MR MARTINI: You see in your statement you say
"The meeting had adjourned and people were already leaving the building during my arrival."

OESMAN ALEXANDER: During my arrival, I was in the foyer, that is correct.

MR MARTINI: So before you even arrived, people were leaving?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, my learned friend must be careful, you mustn't put a gloss or editorialise the answer and ask a question on the edited version.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson,
"

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The meeting was completed and the people were already leaving the building during my arrival."
I read that to mean that while you were arriving the meeting had ended, people were already leaving.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: People were exiting the hall, they were unwinding.  I was in the reception area.  You will see that I said I came there ten past eight.  The Cayco meeting only started at twenty five past eight.

MR MARTINI: Tell me what this means, go to page 8 of your statement.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes?

MR MARTINI: Page 8, bundle D, the typed version.
"... The meeting was over and the people were already leaving the building during my arrival..."
	What does that mean?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: To put it into context for you sir, every night when we leave here, or ...

MR MARTINI: No, what I ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I want to put it into context for you sir.   When the Commission leaves the hall, does everybody immediately leave the hall when everything is stopped?

MR MARTINI: Mr Alexander ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is what happened there, people were unwinding.

MR MARTINI: Mr Bizos objected, and I want you to tell me what that means.  Does that mean, correct me if I am wrong, I am going to try and help you.  To me that means as you were arriving, people were leaving, is that correct, my interpretation, or is that wrong?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It is not fully correct.  The meeting, the formal meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement was done and people were starting to come outside of the hall, unwinding, and they would talk before they leave.  It is not, you get done and you walk out.
MR MARTINI
"... leaving the building ...",
	not busy standing around in the building, talking, but to leave the building, the building, not the hall, the building (transcriber's own interpretation)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is how I stated it, but that was in fact my meaning.

MR MARTINI: So your meaning then is that they hadn't left, they were standing around, talking?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.