Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I hope my learned friend is going to provide us with that information because evidence is being presented to this Committee to exactly the contrary, so we would be very interested to know what basis this question is being put to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster.

MR WEBSTER: May I continue with my questions, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you said that bombings had declined considerably in September and October due to the state of emergency.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman you see this is one of the disadvantages that I'm labouring under as I indicated before we commenced, that I don't have facts and I have to rely on some of the information which has been supplied to me without having verified it and in any even Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well what you are entitled to say is that would it be correct to say that bombings had declined during September and October 1986?

MR WEBSTER: That in essence is what I was conveying, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And he says well he doesn't know because he doesn't have figures.

MR WEBSTER: If the member of the Committee would bear with me please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, take your time Mr Webster.

MR VISSER: Perhaps in order, while my learned friend is reading, to assist him, if he would read the statement of the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of August 1996 Mr Chairman, he would notice at page 52 in the right-hand column that the ANC claimed that particularly since 1986 the armed operations had escalated and had reached a high point, they talk about an all round intensification, Mr Chairman, and that is why we said what we said just now.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, I take it that throughout your career as a policeman you were alive to what the law was, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That I was?

MR WEBSTER: Alive to the provisions of the law.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Alive?

MR WEBSTER: You were aware of the law?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: I take it that as way back as your days at training college, you had been lectured to and you had been told that you were not, it was not expected of you to obey unlawful orders, is it not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: That a policeman is entitled to disobey an order that is against the provisions of the law, is it not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: And no matter who it was that instructed you to break the law, you were aware that you were under no obligation whatsoever to obey that instruction.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Now in your application when you state, the original application is the bundle that I'm referring to Mr Chairman and members of the Committee,

CHAIRPERSON: What page, 40 onwards?

MR WEBSTER: Page 38.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Paragraph 11 (a),
"Deeds or deed, missions done with the approval of the specific organisation /body etc etc."
You were aware at all times that what you were then executing was illegal and against the provisions of the law?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson and for this I have already applied for amnesty.

MR WEBSTER: When did you decide that you would flout the law, because I take it that for you to have reached the rank of major, you must have had a fairly good career, Mr Botha, is that so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Now when did you then decide that you were going to jeopardize your entire career and break the law deliberately?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster, he may even have been promoted for what he had done illegally.

MR WEBSTER: If he could tell us please, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm just suggesting to you, isn't that a possibility?

MR WEBSTER: He will tell us, I hope, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now where is it getting us, that's the question?  You see we're dealing with amnesty here for the crimes that he has committed.  Now where is this kind of questioning leading us except for general criticism of his lying evidence before us, or before the inquest?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, this is a multi-faceted approach as you are aware.  It is just to test his integrity amongst other things please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But haven't you done that already?

MR WEBSTER: I don't know whether it's done effectively and sufficiently.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, do carry on.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Can I have your answer, Mr Botha?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, can he please repeat the question?

MR WEBSTER: What I'm saying to you Mr Botha, for you to have reached, attained the rank of major, you must have had a fairly brilliant career and you agreed to that, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: And I take it that you must have been a law abiding officer of the law, were you not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: So when did you decide that you were now going to besmirch and blemish your career?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, it was due to a couple of onslaughts in the eighties, it was bombs that had exploded, it was people, there were public that were killed, it was car bombs that were placed, it was people who were afraid to give evidence and for this reason at that stage, I committed this particular offence because I felt that all the laws at that stage in the country could not give me the ability to recover law and order.

MR WEBSTER: Did you inform your superiors of that?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: About what, Mr Chairperson?

MR WEBSTER: Your decision.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, it was a once off decision that I had taken and this is what I have applied for amnesty for.

MR WEBSTER: I'm not talking about this incident, Mr Botha, I'm talking about your decision to then break the law.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I do not know maybe we can just get a qualifying question, because I have said that I have broken the law and I have applied for amnesty for that.

MR WEBSTER: In other words what you're saying ...

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As a major.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think let's just cut this ...(indistinct) out.  I understand from hearing this kind of application in the past that there came a time when there was a situation in this country when there was a conflict between those who were fighting for liberation and there was resistance on the part of the machinery of the state.  Those that were upholding the machinery of the state, looked upon themselves as engaged in a war situation and in that kind of situation resorted to tactics, criminal tactics which they otherwise would not have.  Now from past experience in these applications, we've come across that kind of thing.  I want to know whether the point you are making is not just an overelaboration of that issue.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, I'll pass on the point, I do not think it will get us far.  We've got long to go.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha, just to give you - you understand what I have said?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That policemen lied if they thought it was in the interest of the government to lie.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They lied when they thought it would save the National Party from difficulties, they would lie.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They'd commit criminal offenses, if they had to do it.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Let's again get to your application here, Mr Botha.  According to you, if I understood and followed your application, you fired in the direction of the left rear wheel of the vehicle that you were pursuing, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.