Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Where we were there was no light but on both sides there was light.  If you were standing where we were where it was dark you could see.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that Lucky could see you when he approached you because there was light, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I said he was coming towards ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He could see you because you were ...(intervention)

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He saw shadows, he could not see who it was particularly, he must have seen shadows.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what you told me now.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I said where we were it was dark, the light was on both sides, on the left and on the right.  When you're coming towards us you could see our shadows reflected on the light on both sides.

CHAIRPERSON: No that's not what you said.  I asked you that when you were lying there on the grass and when Mr August was approaching you, could he see you and you said yes he could see because there was light, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Maybe you didn't understand me sir, I said where we were the hedge that was blocking the light but he could see our shadows because there was light on both sides, on the left and on the right.  Only when he comes  much closer could he see exactly who it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay, so where you were lying on the grass, when he got to you he would have known who it was, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I don't know whether he knew exactly who, if he could see exactly who we were.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say that if he came close to you people he would have seen who it was.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How far was he when you saw him?

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, the speaker says it is the distance from where he is sitting to the white wall on the opposite side.

CHAIRPERSON: I reckon about 10 metres or a little bit more?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: We could say, which wall?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh that wall there, I'd say it's about 15 metres, are we in agreement, Mr Sandi?

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, is it not a little bit more than 15 metres?

CHAIRPERSON: Generous to the witness.  Mr Mapoma would you accept plus or minus 15?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson I would accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then all the representatives agree it's more or less 15 metres.
	Tell me, how were you able to see that it was Mr Lucky August at that distance, if you say that he would only be able to see who it was if he was close to you?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: First of all there was a street lamp and it was lit on the side where he was coming, and as I've already said we saw him before and we saw the clothes that he had been wearing and I know him well.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he know you well?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how he knew it was you people at that position if it was difficult for him to see?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: If it was difficult for him to see at a distance and had to be near you in order to identify you and your colleagues with perhaps an intention to attack you or whatever, can you tell me how from a distance of 15m or more was he able to say who it was that was on the grass?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I think something is not clear, I made a distance with that wall, that distance is when we saw him emanating from his house coming towards us.  The road would pass close right next to the grass where we were lying, for example if we are lying where I am sitting, the road would go past where the speakers are, therefore from the speakers so to speak he then changed his direction and came straight towards us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Majebe, listen to me very carefully.  This is not a criminal matter.  We don't sit here in order to pass sentence on you.  In fact what we are sitting here for is to entertain your application for amnesty and if you comply with certain aspects of the law, we are obliged to grant the amnesty for you, do you understand?  So let us forget about all the technicalities of distances and lighting.  One of the aspects that you must comply with is to tell us the truth, do we understand?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I'm listening sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore I'm asking you now, never mind the technicalities of lighting and distance, as I understand your application, it was your view that Mr August was coming directly to you with a view of attacking you and your colleagues, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us, if you can't then say you can't, can you tell us how he would have known that you were on the grass during the night?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He knew that it was us because Schoolboy went to tell him that we were lying there.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't Schoolboy come and tell you this is what he intended, that is to attack you?  That's how I understood your evidence or am I wrong?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That was Ngulu Leko and not Schoolboy.  Mr August was with Schoolboy.  Ngulu Leko was the boy that was threatened, helping Mr Gcabashe with the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Correct, now your colleagues, were they armed?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes they were.

CHAIRPERSON: What with?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: They also had pick handles.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody had firearms?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: One person had a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Thembela.

CHAIRPERSON: That is one of your colleagues?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he had a firearm and a gun?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Could you repeat your question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Did you say he had a firearm and then?

CHAIRPERSON: Pick handle.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He had a firearm and a pick handle.

CHAIRPERSON: But therefore I'm saying, listen to my two questions carefully because a question or two ago I asked you what the others had and you said pick handles, and I asked: "Is that all"? and you said: "Yes".  Then I asked you whether anyone had a firearm and you said: "Yes one of them".  Therefore I'm saying listen to the questions carefully, do you understand?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say one of you had a firearm but the person who had a firearm, also a pick handle did not attack Mr Lucky August, correct?  It was only you that attacked him, correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you only armed with a pick handle, nothing else?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You only struck him about four times with this pick handle in the vicinity of his head and face. correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I hit him twice before he fell.  I don't remember exactly how many times I hit him after he had fallen.

CHAIRPERSON: You've already said about twice, I'm not going to hold you to that but it's approximate.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree you hit him about twice thereafter?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So all in all it was about four times?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes approximately.

CHAIRPERSON: You did nothing else to him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: After I got his gun I ran off with the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: No after you got his gun you hit him about twice more?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct and then I ran.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your other two colleagues also run away at that time?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: They ran before me, they ran off before me.

CHAIRPERSON: And you left Mr August there?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes I left him on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know what happened to him thereafter?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I do not know what happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Majebe can you tell the Committee; you are telling the Committee the two of you, yourself it was Luyanda and another one, but in Court you were charged with Mr Biko, can you tell the Committee why was that that you were charged with Mr Biko, not the two others, yet you say that they were the people that were there?  You didn't mention Mr Biko was charged with you.