Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR MASEKO: Not the way you are saying it because it is like you want to - conducting us as to how to conduct our struggle, therefore I disagree with that.

UNKNOWN: No, I'm not trying to suggest how you should conduct your struggle.  You said that you identified the risk in the sense that there were security people that were armed, I'm trying to find out whether you as the commander in giving instructions to your unit that they should overcome that risk or that danger to your mission.  In other words, take the security guards out and there would be not further problem in obtaining the money?  Did you contemplate that - if you did contemplate that did you convey that to your unit?

MR MASEKO: Our intention was to go there and take money.  Even if there was resistance we were supposed to remove that resistance, we take them out of our way because our intention was to get the money.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I understand that the security guards at least were in uniform and they were easily identifiable?  Can you comment on that?

MR MASEKO: I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Mr Maseko, when you heard the shooting from within the premises, what did you then do?

MR MASEKO: I went to close another door which was behind - it's where I met one policeman who was actually trying to close that door and he shot at me.

UNKNOWN: Is that when you were injured at that stage?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And then you made off, you ran away or made..[intervention]

MR MASEKO: The policeman started to run away and I ran after that, I also ran.

UNKNOWN: Your evidence was that the following day you met up with your unit again, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And among other things the money was handed to you?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: Did you count the money?

MR MASEKO: I only counted the money when I was with the administrator, I took it as is to the administrator.

UNKNOWN: And that stage did you know how much you had made away with or had got away with?  That is before you saw the administrator?

MR MASEKO: I had no idea of how much money was there.

UNKNOWN: And the administrator you refer to is Comrade Mandla Lenin, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: Is he a person who is still available or is he still alive or is he in the country, is he out the country?

MR MASEKO: When I last saw him he was still alive but I understand that he passed away when I was in jail.

UNKNOWN: Now did you an he count this money that was handed to you by your unit?  That is on the 19th February 1992?

MR MASEKO: Yes I was with him when we were counting the money, I was with him.

UNKNOWN: And what was the amount that you counted?

MR MASEKO: It was R500 000.

UNKNOWN: Exactly?

MR MASEKO: It was just R500 000.

UNKNOWN: I mean that's what you remembered it wasn't Four Thousand Nine Hundred and Ninety Five Thousand, it was Five Hundred Thousand Rand exactly?

MR MASEKO: I'm saying it was like that - just Five Hundred Thousand.

UNKNOWN: Page 24 of the paginated bundle where you in conclusion say and if I may be permitted just to read the quotation onto the record:  "We should be honest and frank and not take anything for ourselves without asking for it because that is going to give us rebel in the forthcoming time" - I think the sense of that is that you'd be branded as rebels - "the comrades should all be searched after an operation, that is not because we undermine them but we need trustworthy comrades."  You dictated that did you not if I understand your evidence about this report?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: Was there any doubt in your mind that some of the money that you had taken from the university had been misappropriated by the members of your unit, in other words, that they hadn't accounted for all the money?

MR MASEKO: As a commander who had been in the field for a long time I knew that such things can happen.  It's not that I was saying that happened on that particular incident but as a person who has been in the field for a long time I knew that such things are possible.

UNKNOWN: Yes but the impression I get from reading your concluding paragraph and your very important report to the administrator was that your members ought to be searched and money shouldn't be taken for yourselves.  Are you saying that you just mentioned it generally or was there a specific problem with this matter that money had in fact been taken by the members for themselves?  That seems to be the sense of the warning that you're giving to the administrator, there's this - do you agree with that or not?

MR MASEKO: If you are saying I was saying it generally, I was saying that because I know that such things are possible, I didn't want it to happen, it's not that I was saying that it happened in that particular incident.

UNKNOWN: Alright, maybe I should ask you directly, why did you in fact mention this to the administrator.  If there was no question of the money being taken by other members of the unit and had been fully accounted for why was there a necessity to even mention this conclusion?

MR MASEKO: I said that as a commander with experience I know that in other missions such things used to happen so I was just saying that such things must not happen it's not that it actually happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I don't know if investigation has been done, but is there in fact any suggestion that more than R500 000 was taken?  Can the university say from it's records and as accountants were apparently present what the sum was?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the difficulty is that from that side the investigation wasn't very thorough but my idea was that the amount, I remember from a document that I did see, was in order of about four hundred and ninety six or eight thousand it within a few thousand rand of half a million, so no I don't have any information at this stage that I can put positively to this witness.
	Just finally on that aspect when the administrator then received this money, does he for example give you a receipt for the money, does he sign a document or does he simply accept the money and move off?

MR MASEKO: I used to give him the money and he was actually trusting me and I knew that - I trusted him also because he was working for the revolution.

UNKNOWN: Tell me did your unit, the Beauty Salon operation unit that you were heading, did you receive any monies out of this particular haul for your running expenses?

MR MASEKO: We had a certain manner of asking for money, we were not just getting money as easy as that.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying you never received any money out of this amount, this half a million for your own needs to either buy food or for transport, for clothing for accommodation, for whatever?

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure if the money was directly coming from that five hundred thousand.  All I know is that we had a certain way of getting the money, I'm sure if that was taken from that five hundred thousand.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I trying to understand you, when you say there was a certain way of getting money did you then at that stage ask the administrator that you required so much to keep your unit going?

MR MASEKO: Yes many times I did.

UNKNOWN: Yes but try and just concentrate on...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, if I could just come in there.  	Mr Maseko you keep saying there was a certain way we got money, what was that way, what was the correct procedure to get money from the administrator, just to help us with that please?