Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, what I can remember is that I used my bare hand just to slap him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you deny that you pulled his hair?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I really deny.

MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, in respect of the four people you  are applying for, that is Messrs Mahumela, Rev Phoshwana, Chikororo and Phosiwa, is it your evidence that you never pulled any of their hair?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember so vividly about the people mentioned above and about the activities.

MS MTANGA: You also don't remember - do you also deny that electrical shocks were applied on all of them, on their private parts?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember regarding the private parts.  I can only talk about the earlobes.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you think it reasonable, Mr Netshivale, if you can remember the electrodes being attached to the earlobes, that you would remember the it was also attached to their private parts?  Remember it being attached to their earlobes and not to their private parts?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I have witnessed that, regarding the earlobes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, as the person who was involved in torturing these people, which method do you regard was most effective in enabling you to get information you wanted when you were torturing these people?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: The electric shock and the wet bag.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.  Mr Van Rensburg, do you have any re-examination of the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: There's no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg.  Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

SISI KHAMPEPE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Netshivale, did General Ramaligela or anybody else place any limitations as to the methods that you were to use when interrogating people?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, there were no limitations.

ADV BOSMAN: At the time when you participated, did you believe that these people were able to give information in regard to the bombing of the police station?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, what I heard was that they were talking about how it was bombed but, when it came to documentation, we didn't have access to what was being written.

ADV BOSMAN: So on what basis did you participate?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, it was because I was being given orders.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly then, that you did not have real reason to believe that they could give information?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Sorry, could you repeat the question, please.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly, that you did not really have reason to believe that they could give information?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is you said that you were not part of the investigating team into the bomb blast that took place at Sibasa, is that correct?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were merely as an outsider, as it were, to that investigation, invited to assist in interrogating certain people who were suspects in that investigation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have the information regarding the progress of the investigation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I didn't have that information.

CHAIRPERSON: So you yourself were not in a position,  you yourself, to determine whether the people were lying or not?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I didn't know whether they were the right people or were merely being suspected.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman.

ADV BOSMAN: So what you are saying, it was ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: The orders were your only basis for participating?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was merely asked to assist during the interrogation.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that answers it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With the leave of the Chair, if I can put one question which is a question to clarify what you've just stated flowing what has been put to you by my colleague, Adv Bosman.  You've stated that you were not given any limitation by Mr Ramaligela on how you were to assault the suspects?  There were no limits on how you were to assault these suspects and it is your evidence flowing from the questions but to you by Ms Mtanga that the most effective method of extracting information from suspects in your opinion was that of an electric shock and the wet bag method.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.  That is what I'm saying, yes ...(intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm still coming with my question.  I'm still coming with a question.  My question is, knowing that the electric shock and the wet bag method was the more effective method in extracting information from the suspect and having participated in these assaults solely for purposes of extracting information with regard to the bombing at Sibasa police station and having now heard your evidence, that no limitations were placed on you on how you were to assault the suspects, why did you chose what you would, in your opinion, regard as a soft method on the suspects?  You only slapped them.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: It is because - as a junior officer, I hadn't been given the order to use the wet bag or electric shock.  As I've already indicated that I can't even tell you in what form the bag was.  It may have been protected or covered by a cloth, I wasn't given the equipment to use, only the senior people were using the equipment while I was just assisting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What could have prevented you to apply the electrodes on the suspects concerned?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I don't know.  I wasn't instructed to use the equipment.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you were not instructed to slap either, were you?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I wasn't given that instruction either.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Your instructions were to assault with a view to obtaining information.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yet you chose only to slap and not to apply any electrode on any other part of the body, even though you knew that that was the most effective method?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: If I had been given those equipment, I could have used them but I wasn't given them to use.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who should have given you the equipment?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, the senior people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Mr Managa.  Well, they didn't give me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were those the only persons that instructed you in assaulting the four persons that you've alluded to?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: They are the people I can remember, they were the ones who playing a major role.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Van Rensburg, any questions arising out of the questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MS MTANGA: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I just want to bring this information to the attention of the Committee.  On page 72 of the bundle, there is an affidavit of Mr Netshivale where he mentions other victims' names that he has not given evidence on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the reason why so I can gather is because it was restricted to the Sibasa bombing incident.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may be allowed to, one of those victims who have not been mentioned, Mr Cavella is here and I do not have any instructions from him. Mr Cavella.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.