Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We had a discussion that we should go and request for an assistance to arrest Mr KK.

CHAIRPERSON: When you had a discussion in the car before Mr Jantjie had a discussion with these Lesotho police, what was the content of the discussions of what he would say to the Lesotho police?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We discussed that he would go to the Lesotho police for an assistance to arrest KK as he is a suspect, that he should put it in such a way that KK is our suspect, so that they should assist us to arrest him.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the allegation for that suspicion so that the Roma police would be able to help you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we had knowledge that KK was a member of the MK, who was military trained, therefore to us it would be dangerous if we would go on our own to arrest him, without the knowledge of what he would have, or what the hardware he would have in the house where he would be, then if we would request assistance from the police, it will be easy that we'd be able to arrest him.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you worked hand in hand, you had a good relationship with the Lesotho police, are you referring to the entire Lesotho police or are you referring to particular areas, for example, Maseru, Ditabaneng and other areas?  Or are you referring
to Lesotho in general, that the Lesotho police were working with you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would not say, Chairperson, that the entire Lesotho police were co-operating with us, but I would say areas like Maseru, Leribe and Bote-Bote, those were areas where we had a good relationship with the Lesotho police in those particular areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us now refer to the Roma police.  Were you known as members of the South African Police?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, we were not known but we were fortunate that we found somebody who worked in the Headquarters and he was the person who was responsible, or he was a senior in that police station.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, when you stated that you wanted Mr Ngono, what did you say to them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I've already stated that when we arrived at Roma, I stayed in the car and Mike went to the police station, but I would not be able to say exactly what words he used inside the police station, but we had a discussion that he should tell them that he's a suspect within the South African police.  But I did not know the words he used at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is the crux of my question, that the discussion you had inside the car, because Jantjie went there alone, what is the allegation of that suspicion inside the Republic?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There's nothing which we discussed about as the crux of our mission that he is a suspect, but I believed that he would say anything which would make the Lesotho police to believe that KK is a suspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here Mr Thulo, you're stating under general circumstances that you recent information which you know what Mr Jantjie said inside the police station, because you had a discussion in the car.  What I want to know from you is, or the explanation which I want from you is that in general, what did you agree that Mr Jantjie would say to the police?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I still repeat Chairperson, that we - he said when he got to the Lesotho police it's that we had an information that there is a suspect which we are looking for, he's at a particular house and that we need assistance to arrest that person.  Therefore, we would not explain to the Lesotho police that he is an MK member.  But it is true that members of the ANC were all over Lesotho, but within the Lesotho police there were those who did not want the MK members to be there and those who wanted MK members to be in Lesotho.  So we would not go and say to them directly that he is a member of the MK, how would he react to that information?  Then we just agreed that he should go and say to them KK is a suspect.

CHAIRPERSON: I wanted you just to say what happened with the Roma police.  When Jantjie entered the Roma police, what was your agreement, what was the content of the agreement that he tells the Roma police, so that they would help you to arrest Mr Ngono?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said to Jantjie that he should go to the Roma police, that Mr Ngono is a suspect and then we need their assistance to go with us, so that we will be able to arrest him.  That is the discussion we had inside the car with Mr Jantjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, sorry to make you wait one second longer.
	You see what I don't understand is this, the reason why you went to the Lesotho police, you've told us, is that you were worried, this man was a highly trained MK operative, you didn't know what hardware he'd have, you didn't know what possible conflict might arise, and you don't go and tell these people: "Hey, we're dealing here with a hardened military man", you just tell them: "We're looking for a suspect, we want you to help us".  Surely the whole object is to go to them and say to them: "Hey man, bring your swot team, we've got a heavy guy here, we need to be careful, we don't know what we're going to be up against"?   Do you understand my problem?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I know that those people who were inside a particular country, they would respect the laws of that country, therefore that person would respect the police of that particular country more than they would respect us.  Therefore they would have it easy to easy to arrest, other than if we did or we were in the forefront of the arrest.

MR LAX: But KK wouldn't know that you weren't Lesotho policemen, for example, if you pretended to be a Lesotho policeman, he wouldn't know you weren't that.  Isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I want to clarify that, Chairperson, that at all times the police would identify themselves with their identity cards and then they would identify themselves and give you the reasons for that arrest.  We will not be able to produce our police IDs, the South African police IDs.  That thing could not have happened, but the Lesotho police would be able to produce their police IDs during that arrest.

MR LAX: But you see you told us that the main reason you were worried was this was a very well trained man, you didn't know what hardware he had, you didn't know what risks you were facing.  If the Lesotho police were with you, why should he be any less inclined to attack all four of you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, that risk was still there, even if we did not enter with them.  We stayed behind, then they entered first and then after we realised that the situation is conducive, then we went in.

MR VISSER: Mr Thulo, did the police who accompanied you, have uniforms on or were they dressed in plain clothes?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, they were in plain clothes.

MR VISSER: And did you and Jantjie go with the two Lesotho policemen to a certain place?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, from the police station we went to KK's girlfriend's place.

MR VISSER: It is common cause that this was in an apartment near the University of Lesotho, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Let me explain it.  You would find houses which we'd call them as, you know, joined houses, but they would have different doors and in that kind of a house you would not say it's a flat, but I don't know how to call it, but those are the joined houses but with different doors.

MR VISSER: I think they're called annexes, if I'm not mistaken, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Annexes?

MR VISSER: Annexes, I think, I'm not sure what the witness is referring to.