Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-17

MR MKHIZE: I am saying - first of all I said situation was unpredictable, one could not plan before ahead.  There are some things that one would come across once in the middle of the war and this would necessitate the diversion of what had been initially planned or wished and for example like your statement as you have just indicated, you are quite correct, for example, if you look at the undercover operations, these were very sensitive operations which could result in some of our leaders being arrested.  I fully therefore understand that there are perhaps instances where I personally may have had the responsibility of being a commander of conquering, I could have used way which were out of that which was agreed upon but I did this because of the growing tension of the war.  The involvement for example of the K Z Police Officers who were not necessarily Caprivians knowing that they were Inkatha members at hear.  For example, Zwele Dlamini's brother, Dumsani Dlamini, he was not a Caprivian he was just an ordinary police officer within the KwaZulu Police but knowing his background from Hammersdale, knowing that he was born within an Inkatha family, knowing that he was Zwele's brother, Zwele a Caprivian, I found myself using him in other operations but I had not initially agreed on this with my handlers at the time when they appointed me to put together this syndicate, I do agree with you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That being so, why didn't you recruit the people that you used because in some instances you used quite a number of people for several operations.  Why were you not able to recruit them into your squad?

MR MKHIZE: There was no need to recruit because there was just fighting going on.  Whether they were recruited or whether they were recognised at their upper echelons or whether they were just recognised by myself was not important.  That was not important, what was important at the stage was that I had to have manpower by which I could conquer.  That is why I am saying I agree with what you are saying.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you were instructed by Mr Luthuli in 1991 to attend the meeting at Ulundi where you were appointed as a commander of these hit squads, were you told the reason why you of all the Caprivians who were at eSikhawini was appointed?

MR MKHIZE: No, that was the secret of my authorities, I personally also do not know why they appointed me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you felt honoured by that appointment and you did not want to disappoint them?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now I want to move to one aspect of the constitution of your hit squad other than the KZP that you have alluded to.  At that stage when you recruited Maklagani Pumatenja, Lucky Umbiasi and I can't remember the other person I think the surname is Mlambo.   What were they doing?

MR MKHIZE: I have explained before this Commission, I think on Tuesday, that there were already people fighting the ANC and they were giving Inkatha by so doing a breathing space.  and that is something that is not only a knowledge confined to me, the entire public at eSikhawini knew very well - they referred to these people as "Sisha" they knew who these people were.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were they being paid for those activities?

MR MKHIZE: No they just fought under their movement fighting their political enemies but they had the skill, I know that because I was a police officer, I knew because all of these incidences were reported at the police station.  I also used to come in to set them apart.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But how would you being a policeman enable you to know whether they were being paid for the operations that were conducted before you recruited them into your squad?

MR MKHIZE: I have explained yesterday that there were donations that were made by the community and I for example spoke about those referred to as "Oteleweni" within Inkatha because these things happened in such a way that people ended up being given certain houses where they could gather and do their things.  These houses were houses belonging to those who were driven out for being suspected of belonging to a certain organisation where ANC people were driven out, these are actually the houses that were used by Oteleweni and they would name these houses such as Snake Park etc. and these boys therefore were able to gather in those houses and they collected monies from the community sometimes forcefully to buy bullets, guns and things like that.  That is why I am saying they were not paid for the operations.  I could not know that as an old Inkatha member.  I know how these things happened and how they were done.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were the identities of your hit squad members known to your hierarchy at a national level which consisted of the people who you initially reported to and who appointed you in 1991?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, people who were well known were for example Romeo, they brought me Zwele Dlamini and Israel Hlungwane.  I had also explained that the rest like Dumsani Dlamini, how they came to join but what I can say is that the ones who were well known are the ones that I have just enumerated.  Captain Hlungwane for example knew very well that the squad had grown.  I don't know whether he was a person who gave the same attention to other people but he knew that boys were available to my disposal for assistance, he knew that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now in your affidavit you've referred to certain code names and just for clarification I wanted to know why certain people were given certain names, why was Mrs Umbiasi given the name Mukabai?

MR MKHIZE: It is because at the time we called her Mukabai because of her bravery, we knew that if you follow the history of Amazulu, Mukabai who was a sister to Sinsanakona played a very important role ruling this nation giving instructions as to who should be killed and who should not be killed.  She is the one we know very well who instructed that Chaka be killed, she is the one who appointed Dingaan to Chaka's position that is why she ended up dying at Ebakaluzini because of her bravery and deeds perhaps and it is because of those reasons that we referred to Mrs Umbiasi as Mukabai, it is the manner in which she managed to handle things as a woman and we regarded this as bravery and wisdom and we saw the name Mukabai appropriate.  People know very well that a woman who can drive alone in a car, wanted the manner in which she was and when her car approached the ANC people would just flee.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, just one question.
	You mentioned that you were disillusioned by senior members of the Inkatha Freedom Party for not keeping their promises and assisting you after your arrest and you've also denied rumours that you are a member of the ANC.  Are you still a members of the IFP at this stage now or have you disassociated yourself not only from those senior members who you are disillusioned with or from the whole party?

MR MKHIZE: I was saying this because I wanted to make it clear to people that I am not saying this now because I am an ANC member, I am not saying this because of being an ANC member, I explained yesterday what reasons, I gave four reasons.  That is why I gave those reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you still a member of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: I was not sent off, I was not actually fired, I am still a card carrying member of the IFP.  I have not been fired to date, they have just disowned me, I can say they have sold me out.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills do you have any questions arising from questions that were put by the panel?
  Sorry, would you please be quiet?