Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: So if you're white you can become a member, if you're black you can't?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I've never seen an Afrikaner Boer who is another colour than white.

MR LANDMAN: What about Portuguese people, can they join the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: You're asking me to draw a line.

MR LANDMAN: Well, there isn't a: "streep" ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: There are Portuguese people who are members of the AWB Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You see because what I want to put to you is that this again is a fact showing that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, I think the point has been made, that is was clearly for white Afrikaners of South African citizenship.  I don't think a black person would have been welcome there.

MR LANDMAN: I doubt it Sir.
	You see Mr le Roux, the point I want to make here is that you were motivated by race in planting these bombs.

MR LE ROUX: If we were motivated by race then we would have planted it where only black people were died Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you as a person who knows Johannesburg will know that the Bree Street, Von Wielligh Street area is populated by black people.

MR LE ROUX: Not only Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: If I can ask you to turn to page 12 of your own application, page 65 of the volume, paragraph 37.  Mr le Roux that appears on your page 12, it's our page 65.  You say
"The motive for the acts by me which I committed on behalf of the AWB was in order to establish a political uprising"
Who would participate in this political uprising?  Is it whites, blacks, who is it?

MR LE ROUX: It would have been the Boere Afrikaner, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But again Mr le Roux, you accept there's a problem in the sense that the AWB and indeed no-one was prepared to go on record and say that these bombs were planted by the AWB?  So how would it create an uprising if people didn't know who was planting these bombs?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I explained that to you did I not?

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that this was not your motive.

MR LE ROUX: No, it was the motive Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I'm just about at the end. If you would turn to page 19 of bundle, that's the smaller bundle, page 19.  Reference is made there in a report of the 20th of December '93, about a secret document of the AWB and the first paragraph says
"An AWB's civil war plan document which talks about wiping out kaffirs and burying them in mass graves was disclosed in Parliament on Saturday, a Sunday newspaper reported yesterday"
Are you aware of such a plan?

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Would you associate yourself with such a plan?

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: This was never discussed at any meeting where you were present?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, your application itself for amnesty before this Committee, how did it come about that this was compiled?  Did you sit together with the other applicants and decide what you're going to say in your application?

MR LE ROUX: This bit?

MR LANDMAN: Yes.

MR LE ROUX: I wrote it myself and handed it to Mrs van der Walt.

MR LANDMAN: So those are your own words in there?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: And had you thought very carefully about what you were going to say before you wrote it down?  Did you think carefully about the content of what you were going to say?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.  I could have made spelling mistakes.

MR LANDMAN: No-one is perfect.  Mr le Roux, apart from that, the contents itself, that was as far as you were concerned a complete disclosure, a full disclosure of the facts relating to this?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson, except I made it more clear now, I just want to add that.  If I make a complete disclosure it could be the size of a book.

MR LANDMAN: So there's a lot more that you could disclose which you haven't disclosed?

MR LE ROUX: No, no, no, most of the questions were asked by Mrs van der Walt.  This is my application.

MR LANDMAN: So those are your own words though, in that application?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: And is it just by coincidence that in many cases the other applicants have given similar statements, used the same words, the same phrases?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know, I haven't seen any of the other applicants' applications.  I know Cliffie Barnard submitted his and it was only a page long so I cannot see how it could be the same.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you might be surprised to know that Mr Barnard's: "bladsy" took up fourteen and a half typed pages.

MR LE ROUX: I'm sorry I must have made a mistake then Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Didn't you get together to discuss what you were going to say?

MR LE ROUX: In a sense yes.  I was with some of them and we said "Listen, we must" ...[intervention]

MR LANDMAN: Was there an agreement that there were certain things that you weren't going to disclose?

MR LE ROUX: No, this is the truth Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, your application, when was the application for amnesty actually signed before the Commissioner of Oaths?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: It was handed in on the 10th of May it appears from your application, was it a week or so before, shortly before it went in?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it was a week or two, in that vicinity.  It was quite a busy time then.

MS CAMBANIS: So by the 16th day of April 1997 it had already been signed by yourself?

MR LE ROUX: If you say so, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Will you just go to paragraph 13 of your application, paragraph 13 of the pre-printed form or typed out form.

MR JORDI: We believe it's 52.

MS CAMBANIS: In that question you were asked whether there is any civil action pending against you and your answer is
"No"
is that correct?  This dash 13(a).

MR LE ROUX: You'd have to inform me what this is about.  Is this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's simply
"Was there a case raised against you by those people who were injured or died because of what you did"?
And your answer is:
"No"

MS CAMBANIS: Because Sir, in fact on the 16th day of April you were served with a summons by the Deputy Sheriff at Leeukop Prison, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Which year?  What is the date?

MS CAMBANIS: 16th April 1997 at 12H00.  The summons was served on you.  I displayed the original combined summons to you personally and explained the contents thereof.

MR LE ROUX: Did you personally submit this to me?

MS CAMBANIS: No.

MR LE ROUX: At the prison it works differently.  They submit it and they put it on your file.  I'm not under the impression ...[intervention]

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much.  Mr Chair, we haven't enclosed that in the bundle A.  We will make copies and annex that to it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MOKWENA: For the record, I'm Advocate Mokwena.  I appear for a victim, John Ngoba, a victim of the Bree Street bombing.  	I just have one question Mr le Roux.  Do you regret the loss of lives, black in particular in the Bree Street Bombing or in all the bombings that you participated in?

MR LE ROUX: Any loss of life is tragic but it was not just focused on blacks, whites also died.

MR MOKWENA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKWENA

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The name is Kriel, representing the family of a victim from the Germiston bombing.
	Sir, you indicated that the AWB was a para-military organisation, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And it also had a bit of a political agenda, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now you were involved with the AWB in 1994 for a period of approximately 14 years, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Mr Chairperson.