Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JIMMY MBANE: I went around asking because it was the first time I came to Kimberly and unfortunately the person I stopped and asked was a policeman.

MS P BERLIN: Could you tell us what you asked him, or rather what did he answer and what did he do?

JIMMY MBANE: I asked him where are the UDF offices, he showed me in a certain direction and after some time, whilst I was in the direction that he pointed me, some policemen came and they were already pointing their firearms at me.  I tried to hit back, but my system jammed.

MS P BERLIN: You took out your Makarov, and what...

JIMMY MBANE: Yes.

MS P BERLIN: And then you were arrested.  You were taken where?

JIMMY MBANE: I was first taken to Kimberly and stayed there for some time.  From there on they took me to Barkly West in chains.

MS P BERLIN: And where is Barkly West?

JIMMY MBANE: It might be 22 km from Kimberly.  It's a police station.

MS P BERLIN: And what happened at Barkly West?  Can you please tell us your story.

JIMMY MBANE: Whilst I was in Barkly West I was chained all the time, and they would only unchain me if I was washing, or otherwise I was chained all the time, and I was communicating through windows with the other prisoners, and then I noticed Pappie and George, who we met in exile and they were already arrested as well.  So I was chatting with them through the windows all the time, these two gentlemen.

MS S BERLIN: How do you say you got to know Pappie and George?

JIMMY MBANE: We used to chat with them through the windows and they told me that they have been long arrested.

MS S BERLIN: No, I mean how did you know them from before?  Where in exile, how in which way did you meet them?

JIMMY MBANE: I was with them in Vienna and Kashid Camp.  Me and Pappie were in the same unit, and George was our instructor.

MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you spend at Barkly West and Kimberly in total?

JIMMY MBANE: It might have been seven months.  I was travelling every day...to Kimberly where I was being interrogated.

MS P BERLIN: Paragraph 19.  The persons you mention on the first two lines, were those the people who interrogated you, or who did interrogate you?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Mr van der Merwe and Tiny.  I was with Pappie in the training.  The only people who were interrogating me in Kimberly were Tiny and Van der Merwe and the others.  There are a lot of them, but I can't remember their names.

MS P BERLIN: The visit you mention in paragraph 19, by all these people here.  What purpose did that visit have?

JIMMY MBANE: I know some of them from exile.  I was seeing the others for the very first time.  They intention was to recruit me, so that I can work with them.

MS P BERLIN: They were returned, so to speak?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they were already working in the country?

MS P BERLIN: And did they help identify you?

JIMMY MBANE: Some of them knew me but some of them, I didn't know them and they didn't know me.

MS P BERLIN: When you say that you went to Kimberly, you met De Kock, who gave you two options.  Was this the first time you met De Kock?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I was seeing him for the very first time.

MS P BERLIN: In which way did he express that you had two options?  To be killed or to co-operate with them...

JIMMY MBANE: Chris talked to me but I refused and I told them that it's not the right thing for me to do.  But they told me that someone else is coming to visit me.  That's when I realised that it was De Kock.  They told me that here on earth there are only two things.  To live or die.  So no one will ever know if I'm dead.  Even my parents won't know.  So it's when I started working with them.

MS P BERLIN: So is the incident you mentioned in paragraph 19, is it the same incident as the first lines in paragraph 20, when De Kock and a certain white policeman known as Tiny took you to a certain farm and threatened you with the parabella gun?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, that's correct Ma'am.

MS P BERLIN: Was this farm Vlakplaas, of which farm was this?

JIMMY MBANE: At that time, I didn't know if it was Vlakplaas.  Even now I can't identify that farm, but I only know that it was in Barkly West.

MS P BERLIN: So it was close to Barkly West.  Were you blindfolded all the time?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I was blindfolded.

MS P BERLIN: Tell I why you agreed to work with these people.

JIMMY MBANE: I have two options:  either to die or to work.  But I didn't want to die, that's why I ended up working with them.

MS P BERLIN: But later here in paragraph 21, you were talking about Pappie and George again and as I understand it, they did not agree to work and they were tried and sentenced to prison.  Couldn't you have done the same?

JIMMY MBANE: I decided not to go along with them because I had a lot of information by the time, and they needed that information from me.

MS P BERLIN: Who needed that information, sorry?

JIMMY MBANE: At the time I was being interrogated, I had already released some of the information:  where did I get my training, and some photos had been shown to me and it was people who I know from exile.  That was the reason why they wanted me to work with them.
TAPE 2

MS P BERLIN: Why do you think that De Kock was so eager to recruit you?  Did you have any particular knowledge?

JIMMY MBANE: As I have already told you I had a lot of information.  They were communicating with their Headquarters, but I don't know how and I was still fresh from exile at the time and I used to know a lot of people.  I used to know a lot of people so I had a lot of information and that's the information that they needed. I used to know lots of people at the time and I had a lot of information.

MS P BERLIN: Can you give us a date when you accepted to work with the Security Branch Police?

JIMMY MBANE: I have a problem with remembering the dates, but I think it was after some time, after I said I would work with them, so I can't remember the dates.  I apologise for that.

MS P BERLIN: So the date that you have given to me before, the 27th February 1984, are you saying now that you can't remember this for sure?

JIMMY MBANE: It was when I was released from prison.

MS P BERLIN: So you were released from prison on 27th February 1984 and then a while later you started working with De Kock?

JIMMY MBANE: I went to Vlakplaas after that from Section 31.

MS P BERLIN: Alright you went from Section 31 in Kimberly to Vlakplaas.  Yes?

JIMMY MBANE: Venter and Bothma used to come and show me the photos, it was just a (...indistinct).  From there I left with Van der Merwe to Vlakplaas in Pretoria.

MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you spend at Section 31 at Kimberly and meet with Jack (...indistinct) and Venter and look at the photos?

JIMMY MBANE: It was just a short period but what I can remember is that I spent 7 months both in Kimberly and Barkly.

MS P BERLIN: Alright.  You met Eric Maluleki at Section 31.  How did you know him from before?

JIMMY MBANE: Eric Maluleki used to be my instructor in firearms in Kashido Camps, that's how I know him.

MS P BERLIN: He later gave evidence in Court against Pappie and George.  Why didn't you do that, do you know?

JIMMY MBANE: He wanted to be free.

MS P BERLIN: And was he?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, he did.

MS P BERLIN: You mean Eric Maluleki wanted to be free and he was set free while he testified, or what are you saying?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, he was freed.  Yes, he got his freedom.

MS P BERLIN: So when were you taken to Vlakplaas, I am now on paragraph 22.

JIMMY MBANE: After the identification of photos, I left with Van der Merwe.  He was with some other white men.  They took us to Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN: And this was some time after the 27th February, so it might have been, would you say sometime in March 1984?

JIMMY MBANE: It might be the first few days of March.

MS P BERLIN: The other persons that you met at Vlakplaas who you knew from exile, were they also turned?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they were from exile.