Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR VISSER: And then coming to the last one which I wish to attempt to make clear is the PN was in fact, the PN prefixes was in fact as Gen Steyn had testified to yesterday, that was the category denoting people who had become informers, not initial informers, but if we may call it for want of a better expression, accepted informers, that would be a PN prefix together with a number or a series of numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) even more restricted, Mr Visser?  Wasn't PN and informer to the Natal, Port Natal?

ADV BOSMAN: Absolutely correct, I should have qualified that.  Throughout the country there were different prefixes, Soweto would have an SW, Eastern Transvaal might have had an ET, I'm not sure but the point is there would be a prefix plus a number.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: With the only addition that I would make that in my analysis all PN, that is informers, started with a number which had , the first digit was 66, because, don't read 656, or 6664 to mean that they had 6 664 agents.

MR VISSER: Yes, Yes, alright well be that as it may, I accept that that might be the position.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That was.

MR VISSER: Now at one stage, and this is the last aspect of this code, if I may call it that, which appears from the Exhibits J, is that at some stage the racial classification was done away with and reference was thereafter not made to V 1,2,3 and 4 or S 1,2,3 and 4 but rather simply to V and S and in fact one can see this happening already in Exhibit J 1 if you refer to page 2, paragraph 2.6 for example where reference is made to Zandile, that is Filla Portia Ndwandwe, her reference number was V 6665.  So there already the classification which we see at the top of that page in the right-hand column, the equivalent of S4, this wasn't V4 anymore, it had already been phased in.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, I can't say anything about that matter.  I think to suggest to me that I should accept that there was a transition in numbering from an English-speaking S for Security to an Afrikaans speaking V for Veiligheid is difficult for me to accept at this stage and nor would that be explanatory for taking a 4 digit number when the previous system had a 5 digit number and the number of informers and interests groups were increasing so rapidly, I would be puzzled by that and I would, they would have to produce something more substantial than your word.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, not terribly much turns on this and I don't want to get involved.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sorry, I was taking it very seriously .

MR VISSER: No. no. the point is, I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  All that I'm trying to say is at some point in time the 1, 2, 3 and 4 being the race classification started falling away where previously you would have V 1, 2, 3 and 4, you would simply have V and where you would have S for Security Headquarters 1, 2, 3 and 4, you would simply have S, that's the only point.  I'm not saying that Security Head Office was translated as to "Veiligheids Hoofkantoor" I didn't intend to give you that impression.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I did think that earlier you put it to me that V had a meaning of Veiligheid and S had a meaning of Security Headquarters.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is correct.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: So I was connecting all that.

MR VISSER: Oh I see.  No, I'm simply saying that, just in order to understand  why at 2.6 you will only see 6665 and not V 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 6665, it was because that had been, there was, that was phased out, the classification and you already see this happening here.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Well I don't know that.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Well I'm just putting it to you.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I cannot accept that at the moment.

MR VISSER: Alright, now.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the S phased out?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I haven't found one in this document where you will see the S being phased out.  The 1, 2 , 3  and 4 alongside the S being phased out Mr Chairman, but what I'm putting is that I'm instructed that that was the position and you can already see it happening at page 2 in paragraph 2.6 as far as far as the V is concerned, so the principle is the same...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well where can you see V with any number?

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, with a number?  Let me just see.  I didn't check on that, Mr Chairman, there may or may not be such a  ...(intervention).

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, if I may just say why I am reluctant to accept what the counsel is saying, normally I would not question it, because if you look at paragraph 40, S's first digit doesn't stop at 4 and I think counsel would have had to put to me S 1, S 2, right up to S 22, because there's an S 22 and I don't think there are 22 racial classifications ever under apartheid.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Maharaj, let's just leave that.  I was attempting to make it easier for you to understand this document with reference to what I've told you, that was the only intention.
	Let's go on with Exhibit J 1.  You see, the summary of what PN 666 tells Wasserman is that after he reported, he was picked up.  Paragraph 2.4 they went to a flat at the campus of Swaziland, 2.5 from there they went to a double story flat and  2.6. says from there he, that is PN 666, accompanied this lady who picked him up, to a shopping complex, a supermarket near the University of Swaziland where an unknown black man and Zandile, who you thought was identical to Zakhele, but who is in fact Filla Portia Ndwandwe (N-D-W-A-N-D-W-E) picked them up.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: May I apologise for that mistake, Chairperson?  Yes, it is correct that MK Zandile is Filla Portia and Zakhele is Charles Ndaba, but at the moment I'm a bit puzzled, I'm listening to a long summary, I don't know what the question is going to be.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm coming to the point directly.  I'm just telling you that this really relates to the movements of PN666 in Swaziland and people whom he met, until you come to paragraph 2.9.  There he says that he accompanied Zandile to the flat, number 7, at Mombeni where he was introduced to one black woman by the name of Jabo.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Oh is SV black woman?

MR VISSER: "Swart vrou".

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Oh now S and  V have different meanings. Okay.

MR VISSER: NGN, not identified.  Now, the very next, or rather paragraph 2.11 there's another reference to the person MK Lucky.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Which paragraph?

MR VISSER: That's 2.11 at page 2, running over to page 3.  The reference is to Lucky and again in 2.13 and now I want you to turn please to page 11.  Now the first, or one of the points you make is that when the Security Branch had an informer they protected that informer by saying in their report, as I understand your evidence, that that person is not of security interest, have I got that right?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: One of the ways.

MR VISSER: Therefore, Jabo and Lucky and Zondi, that's the last name among those names, would have been, on that interpretation, would have been informers.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, for one reason or other, they are protecting the persons.  It's a mechanism of protecting the informer, but not exclusively to protect an informer.

MR VISSER: But I thought that ...(intervention).

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But it doesn't follow what I'm saying.  I'm saying that the statement "not of security interest" is actually telling all the divisions through which it is circulated, please don't follow up on this, for whatever reason, for e.g. it says "Jabo, not of security interest".

MR VISSER: Yes.