Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee.
	My submissions are that we argue that the applicants not be granted amnesty, on the basis that they have failed to satisfy the requirements of Section 20 of the Act, in that their act was not political and also they have failed to make full disclosure with regard tot he offences that they have applied for.
	With regard to Thulani Cele, he has applied for public violence and the murder of Dudu Ngcobo.  On the offence of public violence it is my submission, Madam Chair, that when he was asked about the motive as to why for example, the ladies were beaten at the hill, he answered that they were beaten because they were misbehaving at the proceedings at the hill during the questioning and clearly there's no political motive there.
	Further, with regard to the public violence, he claimed that when they came to collect the people at the house before they were taken to the hill, the ladies had voluntarily joined them.  And we have heard the evidence from the two victims, that they were forced up the hill and they were given lashes there.  And I would argue that the Committee accepts the victims' argument on that.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact that aspect of evidence was not challenged at all.

MS THABETHE: Certainly, Madam Chair.
	With regard to the offences of the murder of Dudu Ngcobo, besides the fact that Dudu Ngcobo did not belong to any political organisation as the applicants have given us evidence to, I would argue that Thulani Cele did not make full disclosure as to how the victim was killed.  I am saying this because inasmuch as he admitted to having stoned the victim, or the deceased, I specifically asked him as to whether he had any knowledge of the fact that he was bushed, or bush knives were used to kill her.  He answered that no bush knives were used.  
	I further wanted clarity, I asked him whether he is saying that he did not bush knife her himself, is he saying that maybe somebody else did the bush-knifing.  He said nothing like that happened.  So I would argue that there was no full disclosure, he did not disclose how Dudu Ngcobo was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you have any evidence to the contrary?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair, I referred you to the indictment, which specifically spells out that she was bush-knifed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a post-mortem?

MS THABETHE: There isn't a post-mortem, but I've got a report from the police record which confirms this.  I can hand it in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you must.  Our attention was not specifically drawn onto that.  We can't rely on the indictment as it stands, we can only rely on the post-mortem report because it will form part of the objective facts.

MS THABETHE: Actually, Madam Chair, if you can bear with me, the post-mortem report is on the bundle, I just need to find it.  Please bear with me.

ADV DE JAGER: Page 110.

MS THABETHE: 110, yes.
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CHAIRPERSON: Was it his evidence, Ms Thabethe, that he was present during the assault on the deceased throughout?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair, that was his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't also his evidence that people did use bush knives, but the he personally did not use a bush knife?

MS THABETHE: I specifically, Madam Chair, asked that question and he said "no bush knives were used".  I specifically asked him whether is he saying that he did not use any bush knife, but maybe somebody else did and he said he never used any bush knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's quite clear from the post-mortem on page 111, that two incised wounds measuring 0.5cm each on her right chest were found to have penetrated the muscles.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  May I proceed?
	On the political motive, Madam Chair, I would argue that there was no political objective, or the act of killing Dudu Ngcobo was not associated with any political motive, on the basis that, (1) she did not belong to any organisation, or political organisation, (2) when the applicant was asked about the reasons for killing Dudu Ngcobo, he answered that it was because she had brought people who were unknown into the area and who apparently were there to avenge him for the killing of Martin Ngcobo's death.  I don't find any political insinuation into that.  I find that very personal.  And in actual fact we can even interpret that he was trying to defend himself against such avenge, which is not political at all.

CHAIRPERSON: One obviously has to take note of the fact that Martin Ngcobo was personally known to the Thulani Cele.

MS THABETHE: Precisely, Madam Chair.
	I would argue further, Madam Chair, that the act of killing Dudu Ngcobo was very personal, in that on the 25th of December, Thulani has given evidence to the fact that he invited his friends to guard, to help him guard against the people who had come to Amos Cele's house.  He did not speak about any comrades, or he did not suggest that maybe he had gone to report the matter to the ANC and maybe ANC members were sent to help him guard the house, he talks about the fact that he called his friends to help him to guard the house, which suggests that this was indeed a personal issue rather than a political issue.  
	With regard, Madam Chair, to - before I come to Roy Cele, Madam Chair, my prayer therefore with regard to Thulani Cele's application, is that his amnesty be refused, on the basis of what I've just argued.
	With regard to the application of Roy Cele, Madam Chair, I would like to oppose, or I would like to argue that amnesty not be granted on the following basis.
	With regard to the offence of the assault on Dudu Ngcobo, he was also asked as to the reasons why he had assaulted Dudu Ngcobo, and like the applicant he said because she had invited people into the area, who had come to disturb peace in the area.  I don't find, with due respect, anything political about that, more especially taking into consideration the reason why these people came into the area.  
	They had come into the area because their brother had died and upon discovering that his hand and his arm were not there, they came into the area to find out what had happened to the other body parts, which I think is quite normal and it should be expected from a member of a family who is concerned.
	Secondly, Madam Chair, I would argue that there was - with regard to the killing of Amos Cele, which is the second offence that Roy Cele has applied for, I would argue that the Committee accepts the victims' version of how Amos Cele was killed, as opposed to the version of Roy Cele.  By this I mean that the Committee should accept that Amos Cele was attacked in his house, taken tot he nearest bush from his house, as opposed to what the applicant had stated, that he had been chased for such a long distance and he was actually killed next to his house.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have direct evidence from the objectors with regard to how Amos Cele was killed?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, we have evidence from Happy Cele, saying that she saw - immediately after they had left with the police, she saw the house burning.

CHAIRPERSON: But there is no direct evidence on how Amos Cele was killed, from the evidence led by Happy Cele.

ADV DE JAGER: That seems to be on the 26th still, and according to the evidence he was killed on the 28th.  Happy gave evidence about what happened on the 26th.

MS THABETHE: I don't know, but I stand to be corrected, the evidence from Happy Cele says that on the 26th, this is when the incident of the attack happened, and she left and she slept at her sister's house and then thereafter she went and reported the matter to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We accept that, but now there is no direct evidence from Happy Cele, of how Amos Cele was killed.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So I don't think you can take the matter any further than that.