Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

BRIG FICHLER: I think let me reveal to this body that Apla operated on the basis of a number of guidelines, not necessarily principles, that were drawn up.  Either being originated by the leadership or maybe borrowed from other countries and one of the guidelines that were borrowed from the Peoples' Republic of China was what they referred to as the 15 points of attention and one of the 15 points of attention stipulated that you should, our forces should surrender everything that they captured from the enemy and this was a guideline, it was a standard which all our forces had to observe.
 However, the question now calls upon us to make a judgement whether some of our forces did not misappropriate or use for personal ends whatever they might have captured and this will be a difficult question unless concrete evidence is put before us to prove that such a member had done that which I am not in a position to judge.  Secondly, there is an element of human nature and if an element of human nature creeps in then that creates a possibility, but I do not think we are here to talk about possibilities so that we can judge people, but we cannot rule it out.  It may be a possibility, but what governed our activities, it is the guidelines that we had to ensure that whatever was repossessed was brought to the organisation.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Yes, in addition to that, as a concerted effort, even personally, well, as a trained officer, as a trained military intelligence officer to establish as to whether there were people who enriched themselves in that regard, I mean the last three years since my return I have not found any, but we are conscious of the possibility of people enriching themselves as Brigadier Fichler is saying.  In the disciplinary code it is stated that there is no room for self-enrichment and given the size of South Africa and the length and breadth of my travelling around here, I mean, my travelling around here, I think by now I will have discovered the common tendency in that direction.
 So, briefly, I can say that it is a matter of principle that nobody must enrich himself or herself from the struggle.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: If I may just add to the question which has been raised with an aim of improving our understanding of the repossession units. I just want to know as to what were limits.  How was this marketed in, you talk about the peoples' war, how did people at different level understand the repossession strategy?  Was it subject to many interpretations where people could do the things which, maybe, the commander did not have in mind?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Kindly repeat the last part you have said?  How did the people what?

MS MKHIZE: It is really a question about how did, you have said a lot about the peoples' war, that all African people had to be involved, had to fight the settlers.  My question then is if you talk about repossession of what belonged to people, I want us to have a clear understanding of your thinking, how was this marketed at different levels?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Yes, I would say, to give you just a little example, probably, to bring you into picture is if, for instance, I was in Tanzania and I had $20 000,00 and there is a number of cadres that must go home, definitely, you can tell the lines of communication and replenishment are very lengthy.  To ensure that those cadres reach home to where they are tasked to go, I will have to finance, probably, that aspect, but as soon as they are at home their survival within, what we said are the guidelines, we would allow them, whether, of course, I am not talking about people who would go to the African community and try and conduct a repossession, but here, like we had earlier defined, the whole scope of Apla cadres, even if they, it was meant that they should go to a farm and in the farm they would repossess that just to enhance the programme of theirs and their own survival and to expound on that, then we condoned that.  I would say that, because in the long run we would monitor.
 If I know, let us say, in the Eastern Cape we had a cadre, five cadres that are operating there, constantly there would be report to the leadership, but as to how much was given and palmed there, at times it was really minimal, but we were happy as long as we see that there was progress, there were recruits that were coming abroad and we, the same people who are in that area would come and give reports.  So, in short, we, there was monitoring of some, to some extent by virtue of the results in that particular area.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Goosen.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  I want to move onto the final aspect that I would like to deal with and that is to refer to page six of the, this mornings statement.  I want to deal specifically with the question of executions of Apla members.  I take it from the statement that is contained in the first paragraph there, that it is possible for the Apla high command to provide a list of those people who were executed in exile.  You indicated this morning that you would prefer not to list these members currently, because family members had not been informed as to who those people were.  I am not necessarily going to ask you to run through a list of those names now.  I am sensitive to the interests of the family members as well, but I will ask the following questions.
 When were these people executed, what steps has the Apla high command taken to date to inform family members of the fact that these people were executed and by when could we anticipate that you would be able to provide us with a complete list of all the peoples who, people who were executed?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Excuse me, I think on this one we would request the privilege of submitting the dates when we submit the names as well, because we cannot just say when, because whilst you say when it means you have to put the dates against the names.  So, we would request for that privilege and, secondly, the question of the steps that we have taken.  I must emphasise that we discuss this issue over a period on two reasons.
 Firstly, it is a moral issue and, secondly, it is a political/security issue as well.  We have been debating it and one of the steps we have taken was also to request the TRC itself to make use of this platform to request the TRC to assist us in the process of informing the family members.  So, it is an issue that we have been looking at and trying our best to see how best we could attend to it.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much.  I am sure that that, that perhaps the Chairperson or the panel could maybe address the specific request and arrangements could be made in that regard.  I would like, though, before we move off the topic to deal with the broader issues, unrelated to the question of who those people were and that would relate to whether the people who were executed were afforded a trial, either before a military tribunal or before a tribunal convened by the political leadership. What procedures applied in the circumstances in those trials, were those people entitled to be represented to assisted in the presentation of their defence and who was responsible for the decision to execute?

UNKNOWN: Yes, in the first paragraph of the execution, I think it is indicated that it is the prerogative of the Apla commander, acting in his capacity as the commander, to issue such orders as to who is to be executed.  So, I think that is that.
 In terms of the representation, what basically happens or happened previously was that this kind of action will be followed by thorough debates, discussion and political education amongst ourselves and I must say, basically, mostly it surrounds the question of the mutiny and destabilisation within the Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army.  I think I can put it that way and that far.  Any other contribution on this?