Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, this is the resumed hearing of the matter of Hlasa, Mphoreng and Thandakubona.  You'll remember it was heard in April this year but was aborted by reason of fact that the microphones and hearing machinery wasn't working properly.  I think a little bit of evidence was lead but it was virtually unintelligible and I think you Mr Chairman, decided to virtually start today day novo.
	The next of kin are now represented by Mr Ameen who will put himself on record.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I appear for the next of kin in this application.  My name is Saleh Ameen:  S-A-L-E-H
A-M-E-E-N.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you start all over again please?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I appear for the next of kin of the parties involved in this matter.  May name is Saleh Ameen.  For the record, I act on instructions of the Legal Aid Board.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let's just formalise it.  Today is the 8th of June 1998, resuming the applications of
Pitso Joseph Hlasa, spelt: H-L-A-S-A, application number 2739/96
		Motlana Atasios Mphoreng, spelt: 
		M-P-H-O-R-E-N-G, application number 2740/96
		Mxolisi Ernest Thandakubona, spelt: 
		T-H-A-N-D-A-K-U-B-O-N-A, application number 2745/96
	Mr Tloubatla, you are appearing for all the applicants?

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm appearing for all the applicants, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Mr Ameen, we are starting now, only now at a quarter to twelve because you had wanted to consult with your clients by reason of the fact that you got instructions some time last week.  Are you now ready to proceed or what is the position.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I got instructions very late on Thursday and these were confirmed again on Friday.  I was not able to consult with my clients over the weekend.  I have started consulting with them, I have taken statements from them.  I was busy going through the application, a copy of which was provided to me in the middle of the morning today.  I have not completed that process yet but I'm happy for the evidence to be led and once
the applicants have completed their evidence, I will then cross-examine them after I have consulted with my clients in order not to hold up the proceedings for the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you have a problem with that?

MR BRINK: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: I do not have any problem Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will then proceed on that basis.  Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: I thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I will start by leading Mr Hlasa, Mr Pitso Joseph Hlasa.  He is Sotho speaking, I don't knew whether there is an interpreter.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: (sworn states)

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, you are one of the applicants in this matter.  Firstly I will go through your statement that you submitted to the TRC and then we'll go, I'll lead you therein.
	In paragraph 1 of your statement - that will page 4 of the bundle Mr Chairman, you say that:
"The political conflict between AZAPO and the UDF, the United Democratic Front, had reached unprecedented levels in 1986.  The conflict started in the Eastern Cape"
Can you briefly tell the Committee firstly what happened in the Eastern Cape.  You say that it started in the Eastern Cape and it reached unprecedented levels.  What happened in the Eastern Cape?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I have mentioned earlier on that there was a problem in the Eastern Cape and that was in 1985, between AZAPO and the UDF.  Members of AZAPO were accused in many ways.  It was about ideological differences between AZAPO and UDF.
	Now the main issue was the exclusion of whites by AZAPO and UDF on the other hand felt that the white people might be of help in the struggle but this then spread because of the Cradock 4 who disappeared.  There were now accusations that the, the conflict started just there until the conflict spread to Gauteng in early 1986.

MR TLOUBATLA: In, that is where you were staying, you were staying in Soweto at the time?  Where you staying in Soweto at the time?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I stayed in Soweto at that time.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you briefly outline, you know give us a brief outline of the conflict around Soweto at that time, what was happening and how did you conduct yourselves.  Was there any violence, what happened?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: When this started in Soweto there were certain areas that were controlled by UDF and some were controlled by AZAPO.  For instance my area which is Orlando East was predominantly controlled by BCMA and even the high schools.  I'm now referring to Bona Orlando High, Silelekela and Lufenze Girls School.
	Most students were not members but because the school was situation in an area controlled by BCMA, we used to have meetings.  I remember at one stage the then Transvaal President of AZAPO.  He was a teacher, and his presence there helped a lot and there were other areas then like Diepkloof and Orlando West and these were predominantly ...[indistinct] and there were areas that we shared, like Dlamini 1 and Dlamini 2.  They were Black Consciousness Movement and others were UDF.
	Now after this tension has reached Soweto it was quite difficult for one to leave his own area to go to another.  I would not leave my area and go to Diepkloof.  Yes, I would do that under certain circumstances, wearing just private clothes, not any organisation's clothes.
	Now there was a problem in Dlamini.  There were fights and comrade George Oukop's house was attacked.  He was the Secretary General at that time.   We found ourselves having formed a group to go and assist because in Orlando, I mentioned earlier on that we were Black Consciousness Movements, there was not threat as such, like in other places.

CHAIRPERSON: You mustn't be too fast because we are trying to write what you are saying.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that some of you were permanently displaced by this violence, can you elaborate on that?  Were you personally displaced and then when you say displaced, can you just explain what you mean?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: When I refer to permanently being displaced, there were some comrades that I can mention like Thebogong Komezulu.  His house was burnt and Lerato, I do not remember Lerato's surname, they were in Zola.  Lerato was a member of AZAPO.
	It happened that we tried to accommodate them in Orlando because their areas were fighting, for instance Dlamini and Sinawani and Alexandra.  We held camps in Orlando for the sake of accommodating them so that they can have shelter over their heads, trying to find food for them so they don't starve.  Those people were permanently displaced, they did not have homes.
	Now the main reason again for these camps was to protect because when we walked one by one we found ourselves in problems during the attacks, that is the meaning of displaced, permanently displaced.

MR TLOUBATLA: These camps that you are talking about, how were they run?  I want you to explain the camps.  In other words, in the camps what did you do and who was in the camps?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The displaced comrades and local comrades would be in these camps.  The camps were made for the sole reason of protection and we tried to make the comrades understand what the policy of the organisation was.  It was not for us to out and attack the people, we had sit a certain spot and defend ourselves, not to leave.
	Political education was also involved.  We were engaged in many other activities of the organisation, that we would not engage in when we are not together.  Those were the activities at the camps.

MR TLOUBATLA: How big were the camps?  In fact, let me put it this way, how many camps do you know of and how big were the camps, in other words in terms of people who were inside the camps?