Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-12

M X KHULUSA: We were told by the group that called themselves The Men.  That is the leaders of the group.  They told us that we were supposed to patrol because there was an imminent attack from Inkatha.  When they speak like that there is no way you can ask as to why is the Inkatha going to come and attack us.  You just wake up and you patrol.  That is how it went on, but I do not know who told them that Inkatha was coming to attack us and that is how the attack took place, but we did not know as to why the white people said we should sleep.

CHAIRPERSON: When the Boers said you should sleep three times why did they say that?

M X KHULUSA: We could not ask them why.  They just said we should sleep at eight.  We should not be around the street.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, was there a curfew or
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something that there should not be anyone around the street after eight?

M X KHULUSA: It might probably be like that.  I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of any political organisation besides the fact that your were called one of The Woman?  That is a political organisation, were you a member?

M X KHULUSA: At that time I was not actively involved in politics.  I was just a Christian, but I joined the ANC later on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what about the Caspers.  Were the Caspers driven by police who were in uniform?

M X KHULUSA: That is correct.  They were wearing uniforms and they would come during the day after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were attacked during the night were the police there?

M X KHULUSA: The Caspers were there when we were attacked.  That was in the morning.  They were observing the situation.  Even one Boer shot at one man who fell on top of the fence and the Inkatha was present with spears and assegais.

CHAIRPERSON: That is enough for now.  I shall hand over to other members of the Commission who would like to ask questions.  Piet Meiring.

PROF MEIRING: I have just a personal question about your own circumstances.  What work do you do?  Where are you employed at the moment?

M X KHULUSA: I am no longer working, as from 1991.  I lost my job because there was a conflict with regard to hours.  I was supposed to work for 44 hours, but I refused.  I was doing it according to the Law which said I should work 44 hours and the other hour I could work it as an overtime.
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That is why I was dismissed.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you and your family, your family, how many children do you have?  Are they still dependent upon you?

M X KHULUSA: My wife as well as my brothers are maintaining my children.

PROF MEIRING: How many children do you have?

M X KHULUSA: I have four children.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you and then a last question.  These things happened in 1991.  A number of years now have passed.  Is the relationship between Inkatha and the rest of Swanieville still strained or are relationships better now?

M X KHULUSA: It is quiet at the moment because these people are quite far away from us.  They are staying at the hostel, Kagiso Hostel.  So I have not yet seen them.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Khulusa, I just want to ask you about these two groups.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

YASMINE SOOKA: The group referred to as The Men and the group referred to as The Women.  Were these vigilante groups and what was the difference between them?  Why was the one called Men and the other one called Women?

M X KHULUSA: They said we are women because we were mixed with the people from the location, that is the Swanas and the Soethos.  They said they were men and they had more strength than us.

YASMINE SOOKA: And who were they?

M X KHULUSA: Their leaders were Zolile and Sekakane as well as a certain group.  They are the people who use to wreck
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havoc and they kept us very unhappy.  We were quite scared of each other because we did not trust each other.  We did not know who belonged to which group, who was from where.  
 I remember when I was doing a refrigeration course.  I use to have very big files which looked like a docket.  It looked like a police docket and I was just on my way to the taxi rank and one of the members of the opposite group, that is The Men pointed at me.  There was a certain sign when you were bordering a taxi, as I am just indicating and they indicated that I should be slaughtered because they said I was an impimpi, an informer because I was having these envelopes and these files which looked like police dockets. As from then I never trusted anyone.  Ever since they made that sign that I should be decapitated.  That is when I went to the location and I would only come back at night and I would leave all my documentation at home.  I would only come back in the evening or in the morning.  Just before the people could see me because I was scared of being referred to as an informer.  This was the sort of life that we lived at that place.  Even if you had a little document or a van passed by and you greet a policeman, you are called an informer.  That was the life that that group made us live.

YASMINE SOOKA: What usually happened to informers in that kind of situation?

M X KHULUSA: Could you please repeat the question?

YASMINE SOOKA: I said if you were pointed out as an impimpi, what would have happened to you in the township?

M X KHULUSA: Whether you were an informer or not, if they felt that they did not like you, they had this sign that you should be decapitated or killed.  As I am indicating.  Now you know that you should really be aware because they would
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fetch people from their houses and kill them.  Nobody would ever be brave enough to intervene.  
 There is a certain person that was killed right before everybody.  Not even a single policeman came to investigate the matter.  That person was burnt down and he was bloated.  Anyone who came near would be killed.  That is the life we led, but the situation is quite different, but still very tense.  There is still tension that we cannot be ruled by the Xhosas or the Zulus, The Men and The Women.

YASMINE SOOKA: So, if I hear you properly.  At that time there were not only the problems with Inkatha, the problems with the police?  There were also problems between these two groups in Swanieville?

M X KHULUSA: That is quite correct.  Besides the Inkatha and police group, there was always this fight between The Men and The Women.  We could not open cases with regard to that matter.

YASMINE SOOKA: What is the situation now in Swanieville?  Do you still have these different groupings?

M X KHULUSA: There is conflict still going on.  It will never end because there are certain people who have been elected to try and straighten up the past, but the others are saying that they have stayed in that area for quite some time and they were not going to be controlled or ruled by new people who came into the area.  Whenever there is a meeting there would also be conflict and argument in the meeting.  So the situation has not yet quite been relaxed.  It is still a little bit tense.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Mr Khulusa, thank you for the information you
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have given us already.  I want to come back to this place called Swanieville.  In 1991 how old was Swanieville then?  How long was it standing?

M X KHULUSA: Do you mean from 1991 or from, I think it was about three to four years old.  That is before 1991.  I think it was roughly three to four years old if I do hear you quite well because it was not yet that very old and yet not that new.  It was between three to four years old.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.