Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

SWITCHED OFF: I termed my report as Mission Medical Files.  Yesterday, we saw General Holomisa who had lots of documents.  Unfortunately, I do not have my files here with me.  The boere had taken them away.  I want to explain why I do not have any files which I think could have helped in some cases especially even this one who is now Mr X, the one we are not supposed to mention.  This man we are not supposed to mention I am going to call Mr X.
Firstly, NAMDA was formed in 1982.  Like I said it was formed by doctors, dentists and some of the people in the health profession.  They were worried because of what was happening in South Africa at that time.  
That organisation which is still existing, which is now MASA, this is an organisation for doctors of things that involve doctors.  People will remember that when Steve died, one of the doctors who were examining him, when everyone was crying out about the way that Steve Biko was handled in jail, and MASA at that time was not involved at all.  People were worried because MASA was not involved in handling these cases according to people's wishes.  This was not supported by the people at all.  There were people who resigned at that time and then these doctors did not have an organisation that was taking care of their wishes.  We formed this organisation called NAMDA and our motto was "Apartheid is tantamount to ill health".  The only thing that makes our people to be ill is apartheid and nothing else.  We would now take care of how people will be living, the economy, we used to check out the economy.  This organisation was formed in 1982.  When it was formed it was working amongst the community.  It used to have a lot of people.  Even people who testified here, yes this is true.
We went overseas in places like France, especially in Germany and Netherlands we asked for money.  We asked them to help us form this organisation.  We asked for ESG which is called Emergency Service Group.  This was formed in 1986.  What this organisation did, we thought it should do three important things.  
The first thing was to train people in doing first-aid because people used to be shot and beaten up by the police and used to be thrown with teargas in the townships.  So I thought to help people to have first-aid so that they can help these people especially here in Port Elizabeth.  Red Cross was also involved.  What is was supposed to be it was also used by the government.  We trained people to do this first-aid so that they were able to heal and treat themselves.
Secondly, we formed a group who was responsible to counsel people.  That is now to help people emotionally if a person is stressed out, just like Mkuseli has said.  There were people who were from detention, others were from Robben Island.  Our role was to counsel all those people who were released from these places so that they could be able to take up their lives as normal citizens.
Thirdly, we had what was called Crisis Response.  Especially when events like the shooting and the massacre.  We would go there and help out even though it was very difficult, but we did give help to these people especially we helped out with Red Cross people.  It was very difficult to rely on Red Cross and some of these hospitals.  Most of our people in the townships have gone through such difficulties.
I am going to start with something that was very common in our township, the funeral of our Comrades.  People will remember that at time we would bury six people at a time and when we come back from that funeral we will hear that 10 people had died.  When we bury that 10 we would come back and be told that 15 had died.
I am going to talk about one particular funeral and this is the one of TaTa's funeral here at Limba.  We thought these boere were being instigated by these young men.  So we thought, let them withdraw and then we will take up.  I was told to wear a uniform.  The best thing to do is to scare satan by a cross.  We pretended to be from a church.  I was holding a cross so that they could think that we do not have any evil.  We had another clinic at Kwa-Zakhele but we thought of having another clinic next to my surgery.  You see, I am a coward.  I thought to go in this Red Cross car.  I got into this vehicle.  We went right in the middle of the crowd.  When we got there we realised there was a hippo which was followed by some of the Comrades.  There was throwing off stones and there was shooting at the same time.  I did not like this at all.  I was very scared of these bullets.  I thought to go quickly and try and help out people.  This is something that used to happen every day.  We were very blessed to have people like those.  
Nobody could stop these boere.  They  threw tear-gas at the women.  We knew that there will just be mild injuries.  Our Comrades used to treat themselves and take care of themselves.  People had asthma, diabetes, there were so many diseases at that time.  What I am coming to now is that I am trying to show the brutality of the police.  It was not discriminating at all.  People like Reverend Tshonga and Reverend Thandala, they were taken from their missions.
We had two hospitals, Livingstone and Dora Nginza Hospital.  They were like prisons.  Livingstone was worse.  There were police staying at the Livingstone Hospital for 24 hours because there was no security.  They were there to arrest people who were injured and shot.  We decided if there are people who were shot we will say to this men, "Look, do not say your real name.  You have uncles and some relatives.  Do not tell your real name.  Just mention one of your relatives."  Really people changed their names.  For example if he is Mcebisi Xundu he will say he is Mcexu just to shorten it.  People used to be afraid of the police at the hospitals.  Even the sisters had a certain system that they used to use but I am not going to tell you that.  I am not going to give you those details because I do not know how this Commission is going to handle this.  
They used to say to the patients, "If you are feeling a bit better you must please go, give this bed to another person who is more injured than you."  Even here in this hall there were people who were experts in extracting bullets from bodies.  I could myself, but really there were Comrades who were experts in this.  There were many doctors who used to use their own rooms for this, but I am not going to mention their names.  One of the doctors who was in this group died in Motherwell.  Even today we do not know what happened to him but he died.  He was very active in the struggle.
Coming to the campaigns we embarked on against the then government, there were places like Rini, small towns like Grahamstown, Cradock, etcetera, we used to go to such places and told people what they could do and told them how we could help them as doctors.  We used to treat victims in these small towns.  Sometimes we would find that situations were really bad and Black doctors were very scarce at that time.  There was only one doctor at Cookhouse for example, and the rest were White.  Some of the White doctors were suspicious.  At night they would wear their uniform and be part of the hippos.  They would go with these hippos.  During the day they would be doctors.  That is how they were suspicious.  
We would go and campaign for support.  We would go to places like Wits, UCT, trying to get support.  Most of these people had what is called the stress syndrome.  They would help us with the registration.  We used to use a document for everything that we used to do.  If a person came in we would write their names, the treatment the person is getting, this is why I am saying to you I am worried because I do not have all those files.  The reason why we documented everything is that we wanted to have our history on record that is why the police wanted to take our files.  They were interesting to the police because they were about them.
We ended up overseas.  What we got from overseas is that the doctor can treat anyone without fear of arrest.  There are treaties like Toyko Declaration, those are the things that reassured us that we have a right to treat whoever was injured.  This organisation I was talking about now had nothing to do with us.  If you have been shot that is your own baby.  We came back and we told all the doctors who were part of our organisation that they could treat whoever was injured without fear.  If a person has been a victim of political violence he has all the right to be treated.  When we came back we told that to all the doctors who were part of our organisation.
In 1988 when the struggle was going on, luckily we organised a conference here in Port Elizabeth.  The theme was "Peoples health -  The Way Forward".  What I am trying to show you is that we engaged into the system gradually but we did not realise how angry they were about what we were doing.  In that conference, Mr Govan Mbeki at that time was just released.  He was the guest speaker.  I am sure people will remember this.  He was silent before the conference.  There is a letter here in front of me that I will not read to you.  We had a conference at Dower College.  We were told that everything will be okay and we should go ahead with the conference.  At the last minutes we had a telegram from the House of Representatives saying "Do not give those communists accommodation."  I am not uneducated but there is nothing wrong with those people were not educated, but we read that letter from the Parliament.  One of the speakers who was there at the conference was the Minister of Justice, Mr Dullah Omar.  I still have his speech.  During that excitement we were not aware that chaos was going to start after that.
We had a meeting after that conference.  While we were concluding the conference there was a knock.  When I opened the door there were men who just rushed in taking photos.  
When I asked what was going on...  There used to be people sleeping in a certain place just here and there was a guy who was short-tempered.  He wanted to go to the cameraman.  I had to stop this.  There were about five or us and these people were about 15.  We were so shocked.  We thought now what was going on.  I was actually in the file cabinets because obviously they wanted those files.  The conference was legal.  They opened our cabinets.  There were a lot of whisky in those cabinets.  They said, "Are you drinking a lot?"  We said, "No, we were given this whisky.  It is not ours."  They did not get the files.  Their rushing in was in vain.  
There were just five doctors.  I thought that there was something that was going to happen here.  Fortunately, we had an alarm system that was on 24 hours a day.  We used to say to our neighbours, "Please, if there is anything happening, please notify us."  Our neighbours could not notify us.  The following day, we saw the office had been burgled.  Everything was taken.  Typewriters, faxes, everything was taken.  We realised there were so many people who came in here.  When I made my own analysis it looked like they really wanted those files.  Unfortunately, they could not get these files in a legitimate way.  
There are things like confidentiality between patient and doctor so they could not get the files legally.  I asked my neighbours what happened.  They said that they did not hear anything.  You must know that that alarm was quite noisy.  It is amazing that the neighbours did not hear anything.  One of my neighbours though, heard the alarm and when he got out he saw vans and trucks of the police.  That was as if these people did not get enough the previous day.  We decided then we should not have our files in one place but to scatter them so that they could be safe.  They were about the people who have been injured during the struggle and people who were injured in Robben Island.  They went to my surgery and broke in.  They took some of the medicine.  I did not know that some of the policemen were so sick.  When I went to report the burglary of my office the policemen asked, "Who do you suspect?" I could not say that I suspect them so that case did not go anywhere.  These trips that I used to make overseas, there was another case that was very difficult here in Port Elizabeth.  There was another guy who was shot but he was outside the boundaries.  He was trying to shoot at the police.  The police shot back.  I tried to treat him until he was well.
Now on a Wednesday police arrived at my surgery.  One of the policemen was Bezuidenhout.  He was usually called Mqwati.  I do not know why he was called Mqwati because Mqwati is a Xhosa clan name.  They asked me whether I treated a person who had been shot.  At the time I had a long list of people who had been shot.  I said, "People get shot here in the townships, people from AZAPO or UDF."  They said, "Look, do not play games with us.  You know whom we are looking for."  I said, "No, I do not know whom you are talking and unfortunately you cannot get the files."  They asked me whether I knew this Comrade so I thought because this man has crossed the border I looked through my files and thought they were nice and safe.
The following day when I went to my surgery I arrived the same time as them.  They said to me, "We asked whether you know this person, but we have just come to tell you that we have killed this person."  They said it in such a calm manner as if they were having breakfast.  It was so easy for them.  He was killed with his girlfriend and another young boy who was doing Std 10.  When I was still shocked it was shattering to me.  When I got my strength back I called the police and they gave me some advice and the matter was resolved.  We tried to fix it according to my records.  
I felt I was suffocating because I could not go anywhere to report this.  I was called to go and see him.  The reason why they wanted me to see this person at the mortuary is because they wanted me to be psychologically damaged as well.  When I got to the mortuary in New Brighton, the one who was shot, I saw him just before he passed on.  They opened all the drawers in the mortuary.  There were people who have been necklaced, people who had been burnt, and this other man, Dr Laing, who was a district surgeon at that time, who did a postmortem said, "Look at all these people. Look at how the people in the townships use to burn themselves."  I could see with my own eyes there were these burnt corpses.  Even if you are a doctor, if you see that kind of sight it makes you very weak.  Eventually he took me to this Comrade and half of his face was missing.  They said to me that they have shot him themselves.  They said that they wanted me now.  On that day when they came to fetch me, this man who does not have a name, they said they are going to put me in a dark place.  When they said they want to meet with me in a dark place I did not trust it at all.  They said, "We can see you are a doctor and that you are stubborn."  I told my patients that I was leaving them.  I have to leave.  Unfortunately I wanted to drive my own car.  I will tell you how fortunate that was.  When we got there I stopped next to my club.  
I got in, I phoned in Major du Plessis, Bezuidenhout who was known as Mqwati, they insulted me.  They insulted me, "You devil doctor."  I was so used to these insults.  It was not affecting me at that time.
As a Comrade you did not even understand these Acts, Section 29, etcetera.  They said, "You are playing games.  You will not get any lawyer."  I realised I was going to be released after a very long time here now.  So I told them how I treated this Comrade because that is exactly what they wanted me for.  They wanted me to tell them how I treated him.  At that time, Chairperson, people like Mrs Ngona was already inside.  I thought I was going to follow them in a few minutes.  At that time there was going be march at St Georges.  These policemen said to me, "If you are not going to tell the truth now you are going to miss that march."  My wife came in the afternoon to look for me and they said, "No, that man is not here."  She said, "No, he is here.  His car is outside."  When I got out, I am going to agree now with Mkhuseli because as he had said your bread can be buttered on both sides.  Fortunately I was a doctor that is how my bread was buttered on both sides.  Reverend Tsonga and Reverend Xundu asked me how I knew these people.  I said, "People, could you just write this down. Tell me, how much am I going to get if I tell you about these men?"  
I said to them that I want to discuss this with my wife.  They said, "No, do not tell your wife.  This is just between us and you."  I thought these people are crooks.  I said, "Oh no, you guys, my father was also a policeman and he told me that I must never trust anyone.  So I cannot help you."  They said, "We will get you.  You will also end up in jail."  They used to harass me for a long time.  They used to come to my surgery.  One day my fuse blew.  I told them they must never come to my surgery again.  I do not want to see policemen anymore.  After I showed my anger they stopped now trying to make me part of the system.
I also want to go back to Mkhuseli's point when I see all these people in this hall.  Something was announced earlier this year that all those people who had been shot must come forward to claim some money.  I have never seen anything that hurts most.  I went to work for the Western District surgery.  I saw people whom I had not seen in a long time.  There was a long list of Comrades.  People were compensated.  People were reparated.  There were people, I did not trust about this reparation.  I had no trust of all this.  I remember in 1985 when I had bullets all over...  
sit down with me to recollect or repaint the events around the injuries... [Information lost due to recording].  Chairperson, I think what we should concentrate on is... and I hope this Commission will have power to assist or do something about that.  Secondly, about you having a chance to ask me questions.  I would ask the Minister, Sidney Mafumadi, to please get hold of those files, but I am sure they have been destroyed or maybe they have been kept in a certain place.  I need those documents back because in those documents our history is written there.  We need it for our children.  We want our children to know what happened to Reverend Goyi and everybody else.
At that time, Chairperson, we were not allowed to see people in detention.  We were not allowed at all.  We had to use other means to  go and send lawyers to go and see these people.  I remember one time some of the guys who were getting old, now our culture was broken because a man is not supposed to be too old before he goes to the Initiation School.  They were getting old before they go to the Initiation School.  If we could get those documents, records, or files we will be able to do a biography.
Lastly, Chairperson, there is a boy who died in front of my eyes.  This boy was killed by Butler Tungata.  He killed him right in the middle of his forehead.  His brains was scattered all over.  The initial charge was defeating justice but it was changed and now they charged me for misconduct.  That boy is dead and I have a criminal record.  What do you do about that?  Can they not come at least to give evidence that I killed him?  He was charged criminally.  He just appealed in the Supreme Court, if I am not mistaken, and he received a bail.  Where is he?  Is he alive?  Is he in the police's hands?  What is he doing?  Those are the things that are frustrating us.  Our system of justice should be seen to be working and fair as well.  People who are charged cannot be assimilated to police force or to any other force.  He must actually serve his sentence.  Those are the three things that I want to put forward to  the Commission if you do not have any questions.
(?) Doctor, thank you very much for your very extensive testimony.  I have a question.  I want to take you back to the role that was played by the Medical Association of South Africa and get your thinking about what you think was behind their neglect of those patients who were shot by the police, and then, bring you back and say what has MASA done to address what I call negligence of the patients.  Then I will ask you other questions a little later.