Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR KADES: Madam, you say in the documentary
"Paul Verryn has a very, very serious psychological problem, I do not understand why a man of his calibre and a Christian would continue sodomising black children".  
Was the only source of your information that which had been given to you by Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: And you knew that this information had not been confirmed by Dr Asvat during the medical examination of Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew that the information had not been given to me by Dr Asvat.

MR KADES: And you knew Madam that an appointment had been made by Dr Asvat for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not Cebekhulu had been sodomised?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To my recollection, already at that stage, allegations were made that I was accusing Rev Paul Verryn and I needed to give an explanation as to how I came across that information.  And I believed at that stage that if it was so and that Rev Paul Verryn was abusing youngsters, then there was a problem.  I believed so.

MR KADES: Absolutely, absolutely, but Madam, the impression that you give in the documentary if I might read it to you
"Rev Paul Verryn, it is known within church circles, and it is known by those who have been working very closely with him, that this problem, that this problem has just been discovered by me, that he has this problem.  The problem has not just been discovered by me".  
What information did you have concerning that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that time, we had information that Rev Paul Verryn had been spoken to by Rev Chikane and Bishop Storey and to my recollection the court record does confirm that.  The court record in which I was charged for kidnapping.

MR KADES: I am not concerned with respect, with the court record where you were charged with kidnapping.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, you asked for the origin of my sources and I am giving it to you.

MR KADES: Yes, well the origin of your source is not years later where you are giving evidence in a court record.  The origin of your source on the 1st of February 1989, long before you were charged, relates to evidence that you had in your possession at that time.  I ask you Madam, what is the source of this information?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have just confirmed the source of my information.

MR KADES: The source of the information is that, may I please so as not to do you a dis-service, the source of the information you say is the court record which related to a hearing that took place a year or two years later, is that what you are saying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Don't distort the information I am giving you.  I am saying at that stage my understanding was that Rev Chikane had spoken to Rev Paul Verryn and that Bishop Storey had spoken to Paul Verryn about this problem and I said you can confirm that, my understanding was based on those facts in the court record.

MR KADES: I don't understand, I am sorry Madam, but maybe that is my problem.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it is definitely.

MR KADES: Well, may I then continue Madam and read to you what you said further in the documentary which is available.
 You say -
"It is a problem that is well-known in church circles.  He is supposed to have been transferred from Roodepoort because of the same problem and he is supposed to be continuing with the said activities with the full knowledge of some of the top members of the church"

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was the information I had at the time.

MR KADES: From whom?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At the time.

MR KADES: From whom at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have just stated that at the time my information was based on what I had been told, that Rev Chikane and Bishop Storey had spoken to Rev Paul Verryn about this problem.

MR KADES: Are you telling us, please let us understand what your evidence is, are you telling us that the information you had, this information that I had just read to you, emanated from the Rev Storey, Peter Storey and from Rev Frank Chikane, is that what you are saying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Again sir, I am asking you not to distort me right in front of my face.

MR KADES: I think you are distorting.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I said originally the information came from Falati and subsequently you asked me for further sources.  I have given that to you.

MR KADES: Well, Madam, you must have been very concerned about the allegations concerning that which  had been made to you by Cebekhulu which by the 1st of February 1989, was still the only information you had concerning the unacceptable, alleged unacceptable behaviour of Paul Verryn.  You have told us that Dr Asvat had made an appointment with a specialist to deal with the problems mentioned by Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: The two problems you have told us of earlier.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Dr Asvat was supposed to have made an appointment.

MR KADES: Well, did you go back to Dr Asvat to ascertain what had happened concerning the appointment he was alleged to have made?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I didn't go back to Dr Asvat because I think the sequence of events then prevented me from going back on the Katiza issue, lots of things happened at the time.

MR KADES: You were no longer concerned with the Katiza issue?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It actually fell out of my hands because of the events of the time.  I was no longer able to concentrate on Cebekhulu's problems.

MR KADES: Well, the problem that you were dealing with at the time, the issue of the sodomy allegations were very central to your life at that time, wasn't it? It all emanated, all those problems emanated from the accusations of sodomy made against Paul Verryn and I am sorry to be raising this issue here.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: So Katiza Cebekhulu was very central to what you were dealing with at the time, he was your star witness?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We are not at variance about that.

MR KADES: So why didn't you take him back to Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have given you an answer.

MR KADES: That you were busy with?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That the events of the time prevented me from going back to Dr Asvat.

MR KADES: What events?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Lots of things happened which was during the so-called abduction of the boys and all that.

MR KADES: Absolutely, all related to the issue of sodomy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true.

MR KADES: Of which you had no evidence other than that of a confused little boy, Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true, but I am not a doctor.  I was not in a position to state whether in fact that confusion did not arise as a result of being sodomised.

MR KADES: Absolutely Madam, and so why didn't you follow up that particular issue because you had been to the doctor, he had told you how to deal with the matter, he had said we will wait for the specialist to return at the beginning of January.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have given you an answer in that regard.

MR KADES: Well, Madam, I don't regard it as an appropriate answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Very well.

MR KADES: But the Commission will decide eventually.
I want to put to you, to question you concerning the visit at Dr Asvat with Cebekhulu. Did you take Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the day on which he was brought to you or was it the day thereafter?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The day he was brought to me.

MR KADES: Well, the day he was brought to you was the 29th of December, we have established from independent evidence. When you arrived at the rooms, of course you knew that Mrs Sisulu was the person, the nurse and the receptionist employed by Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew that.

MR KADES: And did you find Mrs Sisulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no recollection of seeing her that day.

MR KADES: I see.