Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR PRETORIUS: The reason why I referred to the evidence of Mr Molefe and the other guards is quite simple.  I layed the basis on when this witness came out of the door at the parapet, everything was normal, there was not shooting going on etc and the first shooting took place when he was, as he testified in his evidence in chief, three paces away from Moolman.  In other words this witness indicates that he observed the first shooting, that immediately prior to that shooting Moolman was just standing on the parapet observing the crowd.  Now that is totally in conflict with what the other three witnesses testified to and I'm putting it to this witness what their evidence was and he responds to that that he denies it.  So it is quite clear I think what time we're speaking about and the reason why I am putting this to this particular witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear the evidence given that Mr Moolman said that he was at the corner of King George Street, and is it De Villiers Street, at the time whilst you were on the parapet?

NEO POTSANE: Yes I did hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: And as far as you're concerned, you say that you don't agree with that?

NEO POTSANE: As far as I'm concerned Mr Chairman is that there were earlier shots of which I was not at the parapet at the time and the time when I got to the parapet I (indistinct) that Moolman was stationed at the centre of the parapet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so he doesn't agree with the evidence of Mr Moolman.  Carry on.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman sorry, I don't interpret it the same way, with respect I understand the witness merely to be saying that the first shots that he was aware of when he was on the parapet was when he was three metres away from Moolman.  He wasn't on the parapet at any earlier stage.  He doesn't know what happened when Moolman was elsewhere, he can't testify to that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible) about that, I understand it the way you understand it but I am told, as I understand the question, that whilst he was on the parapet it was put to him that Moolman, according to the evidence, was at the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, Plein Street.

MR CURRIN: I don't understand that to have been the evidence of Moolman Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's clear that up please.  What is the purpose of the question, just clear that up please.  Are you suggesting that this witness was at the parapet at a time when he saw or he was supposed to have seen Moolman at the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR PRETORIUS: No, it's at the corner of King George and De Villiers Street sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm sorry no.  I'd rather you please formulate your question again, there's some confusion in my mind.

MR PRETORIUS: Please Mr Chairman if I may just explain it so that it is quite clear.  The evidence of all the guards who testified besides this witness is quite clear and that is that the three guards, Mr Moolman, Mr Molefe and Mr Llale was standing on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street.  They were shot at by the marchers while they were standing in that position.

CHAIRPERSON: On the parapet or on the street?

MR PRETORIUS: They were standing on the parapet, they were shot at from the street level.

CHAIRPERSON: On that parapet at the corner?

MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.  Thereafter Mr Moolman and Mr Llale scattered in different directions, the shooting continued.  It was the evidence of for instance Mr Molefe that he at that stage - at that stage already he was firing shots in the air.  As from that point in time that the first shots were fired at the corner there was not period when everything lulled, guards were just standing and watching and observing the people in the street, in fact that was the time when the major shooting started.  Mr ... (intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Pretorius you must have actually made a mistake when you put your questions to Mr Potsane because you stated that Mr Moolman was on the parapet at the corner of King George and Plein Street and that's what my noting dictates.

MR PRETORIUS: I'm very sorry then I made that mistake, I'll rectify it.  If the committee now understands the line of my questioning and why I'm asking these questions.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible) question now that these gentlemen are not standing at the corner of the street, they were on the parapet?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: At the corner and you're saying that that is their evidence and you're inviting him to comment on whether that is correct or not.  Is that what you're asking?

MR PRETORIUS: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.  What I am putting, what I'm going to put to this witness is his evidence is just not the truth.  It cannot be the truth taking into regard the other evidence which is at this stage common cause as far as the presentation of the ANC is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you understand what is being said, that your evidence is not the truth when you say that Mr Moolman was standing close to where you were when you first heard the shots being fired.

NEO POTSANE: Let me put it this way Mr Chairman.  You see the way that Shell House is (inaudible) when you walk into those passages I am not sure you can be able to hear the shots being fired outside in the street.  I might have been walking along those passages when those first shots were fired, but how I found the situation is how I relate it to this committee and that's how, that was my impression of the day.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Potsane your explanation can just not be the truth as well because quite simply, after the first shots were fired all the guards that were then on the parapet - explained that general firing started as from then.  Mr Moolman explained that he ran under cover to the position that you found him, that is in the middle of the parapet, which you have already testified, that whilst he was running general firing took place and he just stood up once from that position and that was to fire his single shot at the guards and thereafter he took cover immediately.  So if the first shots were fired while you were in the passage leading to the parapet, you could not come on to a situation where everything is calm and quiet and Mr Moolman is standing normally observing the people in the street below.

NEO POTSANE: Do you want my comment?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed.

NEO POTSANE: Well I must say you know that various cadres come for what not to testify here and I'm sure that various cadres have said that shots were fired in certain times before the actual shootings took place and maybe the shots that you are referring to are the shots which were fired at the time when I was not there and ... (intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman I'm not going to belabour this point, it is on record and I think the rest will be addressed in argument at a later stage.  Mr Potsane Mr Moolman, at the inquest court and even here, testified that he only observed you for the first time when you grabbed the shotgun from him and that was now after he fired his shot.  Are you aware of it?

NEO POTSANE: No I've got another version to that story because the way I saw things is that I was next to Moolman and I only grabbed his gun after he fired a shot and I'm not disputing his version of the story and neither do I think that I'm also not telling the truth because that's how I saw things and that's how I remember things.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Potsane if you do not dispute his version there's something wrong because it's in total conflict with your version.  You see your version is that before he fired his first shot - at least the only shot that he fired, you arrived next to him and you even asked him what the situation was at that point in time.  Is that not correct Mr Potsane?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.