Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

CHAIRPERSON: His counsel has to decide what he considers relevant and not relevant in respect of his client's case.  His counsel knows that the application for amnesty just relates to certain specific matters.  I dare say that he's leading this evidence merely for the purposes of presenting a complete picture of the activities of the applicant but you are right in the sense Mr Brink, that all this does appear on oath in his affidavit and maybe if you wish him to confirm the contents of that affidavit or highlight anything that is in that affidavit, you should do so.

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   On that note I think I don't have any further questions that I'll put to the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I think it might be a convenient time to take a short adjournment and to give Mr Diaz of discussing the matter with his clients.

ADV DE JAGER: Just for the record, the affidavit handed in, do you confirm everything in this affidavit as being true and correct?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like to ask you a few questions.  What was your employment at that time?

MR HLOPE: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you work for an employer?

MR HLOPE: I wasn't working properly accept for that I was a security for Mr Djamile and I was paid R600-00 a month.

CHAIRPERSON: Who paid you this money?

MR HLOPE: Mr Djamile used to give me an envelope with the money inside.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) cheque?

MR HLOPE: Cash.

CHAIRPERSON: So you looked upon Mr Djamile as your employer?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I can say that as well because I was his bodyguard.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) issued with this special constable appointment before you were given a document, what work were you doing?

MR HLOPE: I wasn't working.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was supporting you, how were you living?

MR HLOPE: My father, he was supporting me.  I was still very young at that time, my father was clothing me and buying me food as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) between your father and Mr Djamile?

MR HLOPE: My father was staying at Mr Djamile's house and we were close neighbours and they were close friends.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he was staying at Mr Djamile's house, was he a tenant of Mr Djamile?

MR HLOPE: Yes, he was a tenant.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like to talk to you about the killing of Mr Mkhize.  You haven't given us any reason as to why Mr Mkhize was killed.

MR HLOPE: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was he killed?

MR HLOPE: I will put it this way.  All I knew about Mr Mkhize is that at his place he had a tenant and this tenant was a woman, this woman used to take information from Mr Mkhize's house to Mr Djamile's house because at Mr Mkhize's house they used to hold meetings, UDF meetings and this woman would take this information to Mr Djamile's house.  Besides that he was a supporter of the Kaizer Chiefs and he used to take youth.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that ...(inaudible) Mkhize's house, how do you know about that?

MR HLOPE: As I've already explained that there was a tenant, a woman at Mr Mkhize's house.

CHAIRPERSON: You merely heard this, that meetings were held.  You don't know about it, you merely heard it, is that correct?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know what the meetings were all about?

MR HLOPE: No, I don't have any information.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well now, were you told why Mr Mkhize had to be killed?

MR HLOPE: No, I was not told.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went around taking part in the murder of Mkhize without knowing why you were doing it?

MR HLOPE: I would like to explain there.  I went to check if he was in his house and to check at what car he was driving.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) I'm now talking about the fact that you took part in the killing of Mkhize without knowing why he was killed, that's the question.

MR HLOPE: Of course I took part in the killing of Mr Mkhize because I went to his house to check if he was there and I took the information back to Mr Djamile, I agree there but I didn't kill him with my hands.  Even now I can say I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know why he was killed?

MR HLOPE: I would like to put before the Commission that it is because ANC/UDF meetings were held at his house, I think that was the reason he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) thing which you think was the reason.  You were never told why he was killed, is that so?

MR HLOPE: That's so, I was not told.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get this absolutely clear, you took part in all this, in assisting whoever asked you to assist to find out whether Mkhize was armed and so on, you knew that he was going to be killed but you had no reason to believe or had any reason to know why he was to be killed?  And you took part in those activities, is that right?

MR HLOPE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment at this stage and resume in 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I wish to remind you that you're still under oath, do you realise that?

MSIZI JETHRO HLOPE: (s.u.o.)

MR HLOPE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR BRINK: I think I come at the end Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Because normally, anyone, the counsel for the next of kin normally or victims - perpetrators - normally come before me.  That's been the practice in the past.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness, to the
applicant?

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may I begin by saying I apologize for  what may now appear to be a lack of preparedness on the part of - on my part and my client's part.  Unfortunately that's due to no fault of mine, I do however apologize for it.  I came to meet with my clients at about 9.30 a.m. this morning and I received a host of  prolix documents at about 10 'clock.  I know have a bundle of the papers before me but I represent three clients who are next of kin's.  Firstly, Mr Kuzwayo insofar as Mr ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)