Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MODISE MOLEFE: That is your observation. I do not have any comment to that. The AK ballistically prove they do not link the weapon that I was carrying that it killed anyone. That is your statement. Or injured anyone. That is your statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think you were suggesting. Were you trying to suggest that despite the ballistic evidence the people that were found, that there were some people that were found in front of the pharmacy who were killed who were shot by him?

MR PRETORIUS: I did not say that Mr Chairman. But there were a lot of people injured.

CHAIRPERSON: That were found there.

MR PRETORIUS: And even that ran away, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: So the ballistics did not test each and every person that was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: And it is quite probable that the marchers that were injured or some of the marchers that were injured were in fact injured by AK47s.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it is also quite probable that didn't happen isn't it?

MR PRETORIUS: Well they were in fact injured by firearms. And all I am putting to this witness is that he deliberately lent over the parapet wall and he deliberately fired into the crowd. That is as far as I took it. I did not take it any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I thought you were trying to put to him that the bodies that were found, those that were injured that were found there in front of the chemist. I thought you were trying to imply.

MR PRETORIUS: Not at all Mr Chairman. All I am saying is that he physically lent over and shot at the marchers.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.

MR LAX: Do you understand the thrust of the question now? And do you want to comment on that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I do. Your Lordship I have responded to this question. I said immediately they fired to the concrete walls I pulled Veli down because there was this automatic fire that was coming from the marchers. If I could have leaned down I wouldn't be here and asking for amnesty. I would have been dead. I jumped to the indent even it is supported by Justice Nugent that two shots that might have went to the direction of the pharmacy I might have lost my footing. Not deliberately leaned and shot the marchers. That is your own perception.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we heard that thank you. And further questions?

MR PRETORIUS: Are your evidence then that it was impossible that any of your shots injured a marcher?

MODISE MOLEFE: I already said so. And I have said to His Lordship by those two shots which perhaps accidentally went to the direction of the marchers if those people can come within a million years to come hundred times and thousand more I said if they are struck if they can come I apologise I have said so. Accidentally not deliberately.

MR PRETORIUS: You were the only person on the parapet that carried an AK47 on that day. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Molefe the objectors I represent will also state that they never carried a firearm they had traditional weapons on that day and they never attacked Shell House or had any plan to attack Shell House on that day. Your response to that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Do not take us as cold-blooded murderers. Look this is our house, people from Natal from (...indistinct) Hostel, Meadowlands Hostel, what do they want in our own property? We never took Shell House to the hostel. And if they did not come there with intentions we would not be here all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was in respect of the clients that he represents. His particular clients, he is only talking about them and he said as far as his clients were concerned they were not armed and they had no intention of attacking Shell House. That is all. Can you just refresh my memory how many do you represent please?

MR PRETORIUS: I represent 7 but in this regard I also speak for the 5 that Dr van Wyk represent. My colleague, Mr van Wyk will speak for those that he represent Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes quite. So he is only talking about 12 people whom they represent but they were unarmed. They had no intention of attacking Shell House. That is what is what is being put to you.

MODISE MOLEFE: His Lordship without any sense of - he represent people who are injured. He said he alleges that they were not armed. And I say we have been shot at. And I don't want this thing to carry on. They shot, they did not shot. And it won't carry us anywhere. However I still say if those two shots that I fired if they might have killed or injured anyone I say I am sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer to his question is you would not know who his clients were. There were 12 people whom they represent and if they say that they were not harmed, if they say they had no intention of attacking Shell House there is nothing you can say about it is there?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the answer.

MR PRETORIUS: They will also testify and they will be borne out for that by independent witnesses that the first shot fired that day was fired by the ANC guards. Any response to that?

MODISE MOLEFE: I don't have nothing to do with that.

MR PRETORIUS: And they will say that those shots, that the shots that were fired by the ANC guards were fired at them without any reason at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Your clients are going to say that?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed Sir. May I make it just clear Mr Chairman those clients that can speak for themselves. I do represent inter alia dependants and of course those clients cannot say that because they simply were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well quite understandable.

MR PRETORIUS: Any response to that Mr Molefe?

MODISE MOLEFE: Come with your question again?

CHAIRPERSON: The first shots that were fired were fired by the ANC guards. You have already answered that. Just repeat your answer?

MODISE MOLEFE: I do not know. I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know.

MR PRETORIUS: The next part of that question is Mr Molefe is that those shots were fired without any reason at all. In other words the guards that then fired at the marchers had no reason to fire at them. Your response to that?

MODISE MOLEFE: It is a perception of your clients.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you don't understand. Maybe let us just cleared up. Those members of the guards who did fire, ANC guards who did fire did so without any reason. That there was no reason for them to fire. They fired without any reason or justification. That is what is being put to you.

MODISE MOLEFE: They had their reason to fire because we were attacked.

MR PRETORIUS: Do you now say that the only reason that you fired was, or the guards fired not only you - were that they were under attack?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes we were under attack.

MR PRETORIUS: And if there wasn't an attack there would have been no reason to fire at them. Do I understand you correctly Mr Molefe?

MODISE MOLEFE: If there was no military attack, if there was no military attack with the AK's, the pistols, the shot guns we wouldn't be here.

MR PRETORIUS: Just in response to that our clients will deny that there was any attack taking place so that therefore there was no reason to shoot at them. Thank you Mr Chairman I have got no
further questions.

MR PRETORIUS: .

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Molefe can you confirm that you were the first person on the parapet that fired shots at the crowd that day?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you confirm that (...intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Were you the first person who fired shots at the crowd?

MODISE MOLEFE: No I was defending the fire that was coming from the crowd.

CHAIRPERSON: No of all the people that might have fired from the parapet were you the first person to fire?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you fired those shots at the crowd. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: No.

UNKNOWN: After you went down into the parapet Mr Veli Llale was in your company. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.