Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

THOMAS MANTHATA: The inquiry that you are requesting the TRC to put forward to the Government, is that to the Government of - to the ANC Officials, ANC or MK Officials, where they would have to account or come out with the record?

JOSEPH SEREMANE: Well, I think perhaps we are all these things today, we are MK, we are the Government, we are whatever, but I think if one were to go back it would mean the liberation movement, whatever structures.  I should believe that they kept records and those records must be made available.
 And they must be probed, it is no use saying these were young people, it is no use saying it was abnormal times, we need to know the truth.  We have been young too.
 I cut nobody's head, I was young.  I have gone through thick and thin, I respected the sanctity of life so that people cannot just be hiding behind those things.  We want to know the facts and more and above it is again from the same quarters that we want to be shown the graves and when it is necessary and it is possible, they must be exhumed, we must come and have decent burials.

THOMAS MANTHATA: From the report you have had from those who you contacted and you do not want to disclose for fear of their lives, did they relate or did they give an account of the line of management of the armies that they were under where perhaps in the end we would say the orders came from so and so?

JOSEPH SEREMANE: Yes, they did sir.  I don't want to take maybe steam or the glory from them.  I guess I have made a special request that they be subpoenaed and they will come and say these things.  They did say it was through instructions, they blamed our present leadership, some of them.
 This young fellow who spoke here, reminded me of several of the things that they said and it is not for me to begin to mention their names unless you say I am compelled to do so, but they did say these are instructions, they were instructed and they were accused by their own leadership.  Some of them were in charge of camps like this Chief, he was also in charge of a camp but he was accused of all sorts of things.  Staging a mutiny.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Madam Chair, is it necessary that what is written in the statement should be mentioned?

CHAIRPERSON: I have just conferred with our Head of Investigation here and he feels that if there are no statements from the young people to the TRC, you should at this stage not go through the evidence that you have given us, but we will try to encourage them to come forward to make their statements to the TRC.

JOSEPH SEREMANE: Yes, just maybe to also put it in correct perspective.  I have submitted their affidavits.  Unfortunately the signed ones are not with me, but they have testified in front, they gave me the story and signed the affidavits.
 I told them what the implications are that is why they signed them and I think copies, the original copies, were sent to Motsenyana Commission, which never even responded and I had copies of the signed ones, I don't know where they are.
 But there are statements, but I can't compel them to come and appear in front of the TRC and they have all the right to if they don't want to.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I have no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And questions Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mdu or Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Jo, thank you for your rendition and especially to the extent that you are keen for truth to be exposed and for the records to be made available.
 It is my unenviable task and when I say my, I mean all of us in the Commission, specifically the Investigative Unit, to follow the requests such as you have given.
 And I don't know whether it will be possible for you to take the time to try and get the signed statements - in your very hard work inquiry about land issues and everything, they may have disappeared, but if you are able to find the time I am sure the Commission would be pleased to get those statements.  But we will try and work on the basis of what we have and we will obviously deal with you and those people in strict confidence.
 We had a mandate from that same President to expose the truth and hopefully to cause people to be reconciled in that process, so I am sad that bureaucratic red tape has made access to the President difficult for you, because I could have thought of no better thing for you to have done in those circumstances, than to have approached him and which I think was a very responsible consideration, but to want to approach him in all his various capacities as President of this country, he is Commander in Chief of the armed forces, as President of the ANC, he is by direct implication accountable for everything that happened in the name of the ANC.
 So I think it was a very responsible conduct on your part to have wanted to conduct with him so that he could share with you the benefit of these disclosures and so that he himself can use his influence or the influence of his office to see what can be done in the circumstances.  You can be sure we will take it up with him and that is as far as I can take it at this stage.
 But don't tire to come to us.  I know I have caused myself a great deal of problems by saying these things, because if my phone phones every second, it is Jo Seremane, I would have brought it upon myself, but that is what I am here to do.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seremane, we thank you very much for coming forth here.  Your presence here today as well as Diliza Mthembu's has given the TRC an opportunity to give a balanced picture of the conflict so that we shouldn't be seen as just attacking the former regime, the Security Police and so on, we should also give the people a chance  to hear the stories that happened outside the country.
 I am aware that you are really in agony about your younger brother, which is understandable and since we have had this hearing today, you are the second person who has asked for the bones of the loved ones.
 And I know how necessary that is if people have to come to a closure and say that we have gone through this, now we are able to forget and look forward to the future and I know that the ANC has admitted to these allegations through their two submissions, but I suppose now maybe the next step is for the TRC to recommend that there should be a platform that is put in place whereby people like you who are searching for the truth, are able to talk to these people and say yes, you have admitted, but for our peace of mind, could you tell us why, where?
 So that is all we can promise at this juncture and thank you for coming.
 Ladies and gentlemen, we are going now to our last witnesses, but I think after this experience can we just have a two minute body break without going out, standing up and stretching?  I feel the tension myself and I think you also should do.