Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

ADV PRIOR: And despite - if I understand you further correctly, towards of your evidence you said you did not always like what you were doing or words to that effect, you didn't always enjoy, if I can use that word, you didn't like what you were doing but because they were orders given in the context of liberating your country you found that was your duty and you did that?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, just to correct you.  He said that he didn't do it because he like doing those things but that was his duty as an APLA soldier essentially.  It has a slightly different slant.

ADV PRIOR: I think I've just put it the other way around but the sense of it is that, even though he may have had misgivings about what he was doing, he did it nevertheless because of the instructions that he received, am I correct in understanding it like that?

ADV SANDI: I think Mr Prior, his attitude to those instructions was not entirely clear.  Maybe we can find out from him what he means when he has said in his evidence in chief about twice that he was forced, he was compelled to do those things.
	Can we find out from you Mr Ncamazana, what do you mean in your evidence in chief when you say you were forced, you were compelled to do those things?  Forced and compelled by whom?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I said I was forced by the deceased at Court in order to protect the commander.

ADV SANDI: I thought you said that - before we talked about the Court it was in your evidence in chief, you were talking about the time of the general context in which all these acts had been perpetrated.  Are you saying that you did not really want to do these things?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: At Court I said that but what I did I did according to instructions as I was a soldier.  I was forced not to contradict what I was instructed to do.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, but in your evidence a short while ago, before you rounded off your evidence, you said you were compelled to carry out those orders or you were forced.  I've actually got a note here: "I was forced to do those things".

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't that part of his explanation to the relatives of the victims?  When you say he was rounding off his evidence, didn't he say this forced part as part of that, I'm not sure of it.  My recollection is that it was.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I have it in the following sequence
He says he was not telling the truth, he was protecting the commander.
		He then said he was compelled to do those things, forced.  
		Then he was asked how he felt and he said: he feels for those families and relatives and he asked - the message was one of forgiveness.  
 	So it was well before that, he was asked why he carried those attacks out but anyway the record will speak for itself.

ADV SANDI: That is my understanding as well Mr Prior, it was before he was asked what had happened in Court and what he had said there.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  I won't belabour it unless it's an issue the Committee thinks needs to be properly canvassed.

MR LAX: Just for the record, he did actually answer your question before my colleague interjected.  And in reply to your question he said: "Njalo" which means: "Yes, that is so".  It will be on the tape but if the Interpreter can simply confirm that that actually happened.

INTERPRETER: Yes, he did say so.

MR LAX: And just for the record, that was the question dealing with the fact that, as Mr Prior put it which was a slightly different emphasis to the way I'd put it, that he was carrying out his duties in spite of the fact that he didn't really like the thought of having to do those things.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.

MS GCABASHE: Mr Prior, just before you continue.  I would still like a bit of clarification on this issue of "forced" because the note I have indeed is in the explanation to the family: he was "forced" to do these things which is independent of the "forced" that he felt at the Court hearing, if he can just resolve those two.  "Forced" at the hearing, I understand that.  The "forced" in relation to his explanation to the family, can you just resolve that one for the Committee?
	Would you like me to repeat that?

INTERPRETER: Yes, we'd like a repeat please because he did not understand so he did not give an answer.

MS GCABASHE: Yes, that's alright.  What I was saying Mr Ncamazana, was I understand the forcing that you talked about at Court, that you lied to protect your commander, that I have no problem with but you did say when you were explaining to the family, that you were sorry, you in fact did say that you were forced to do these things, can you explain what you meant by that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was forced because I was a soldier, mine was to follow instructions only not to contradict instructions given.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	What I need to find out from you is that especially during March of 1994 and possibly from the beginning of that year, January, February, March of '94, were you aware of the political changes prevalent in the country?  	May I be more specific?  April was the election, the general election, the democratic election to which the PAC had committed itself, were you aware of that development?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I knew because I heard people talking.

ADV PRIOR: And to I understand also - or I'm going to suggest the following, that you were also interested in that political development and the way the changes were going to affect you as an individual and also as an APLA member and also as a PAC member, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: My interest was that black people must be free from oppression, from the government of the boers.

ADV PRIOR: And were you aware that in, I think it was January of 1994, there was a congress of the PAC at UNITRA, that is at the University of The Transkei at Umtata, they held their national congress, were you aware of that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I don't know, I cannot remember whether I heard that, whether I heard over the radio or from the paper.  I could not accept that as the truth because what the television, the radios and the newspapers say about the party I could not accept as a soldier.  What I was prepared to accept was from my commander, it's him telling me: "this and this is happening", not to me following things from the media.

ADV PRIOR: On the 17th of January, and I refer to the four reports that were handed to the Committee - may that possibly be identified or marked Mr Chairman?  We don't have any exhibits as yet here in this hearing.  I don't at this stage want to refer to anyone specifically but just to the general content of all four, they all say the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: These are these four?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll number The Star of Johannesburg as A1.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The Daily Despatch in East London as A2.

ADV PRIOR: The Sowetan?

CHAIRPERSON: The Sowetan as A3 and The Citizen as A4.  Sorry, The Star A1, The Daily Despatch A2, The Sowetan A3 and The Citizen A4 and I hasten to say that I have not put them in any form of order of merit, that is just the order in which the papers were.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, I just want to put to you the sense of those newspaper clippings, that the PAC had announced, although their report also came under the heading:
"APLA suspends its war.  The PAC announced the suspension of the armed struggle.  APLA to lay down arms"
and so forth.  The commanders had started informing cadres to lay down arms.  That seems to be subject matter of quite widespread publicity and medica coverage on the 17th of January 1994.  The question that I want to ask you, did you not become aware of the publicity surrounding these announcements?  Maybe you could answer that question first.  Were you aware or were you not aware?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not get to know about those things published.