Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MSIANDA NTONGA: We knocked at the house and they opened because they were awoken by this gunshot and we told them that we were comrades and we were not there to fight and we told them that some accident happened next door and we were not there for that, we just wanted to go to the main house and we asked this gentleman to accompany us with this lady because this lady had a shock already so we wanted to go to Mr Pretorius' place to ask for someone to assist him as he was injured, that is Mr Senti.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel.  That gentleman, Mr Ntonga, did he in the end accompany you, did he come along with you?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes he did accompany us because he could see that we were only ...(indistinct)

MS PATEL: Mr Ntonga, if there were neighbours there, I don't understand, when you knocked on Mr Senti's door and he didn't want to help you, why didn't you move to the neighbours and ask for help there rather?

MSIANDA NTONGA: We did not think about that but the very first house that we approached was Mr Senti's house.   We did not think of knocking next door, we just thought about knocking at Mr Senti's house because it was very late in the evening for us to wake up everyone.

MS PATEL: Well I'm not sure where the evidence of somebody else accompanying you has come from at this late stage because it wasn't mentioned at the trial I don't think.  I want to put it to you though that Mrs Senti was in fact compelled by you and your group to go to Mr Pretorius' farmhouse?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is not true.

MS PATEL: Okay.  I'm sorry, Sir, do you say that you entered Mr Pretorius' house?

MSIANDA NTONGA: We did not get the chance to get inside his house.

MS PATEL: Oh no, that's correct yes, I'm sorry you didn't mention anything about it, you just said that you shot him.
Sorry Honourable Chairperson, I'm just checking something before I move on.
	Another thing that puzzles me is that nowhere is there evidence of a dog being on the premises at Mr Pretorius' farmhouse.  It's not mentioned in the judgement, it's not mentioned in the summary of facts either and I'm not sure now whether your co-applicant, Jimmy, has mentioned the fact of a dog being present.  Jimmy didn't mention a dog being present either?  What is your comment, Sir?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I don't know Jimmy's problem but he has spent a very long time in prison, maybe he had forgotten about it and I'm sure that even Mr Pretorius knows that he's got some dogs.

MS PATEL: Were you involved in, besides shooting Mr Pretorius, were you involved in any further assault on him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I never touched him with my hand.

MS PATEL: Do you know whether any of the other members of your group had assaulted Mr Pretorius afterwards?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes there were people who went to him, I don't know whether they assaulted him or not but I saw some people going to him.

MS PATEL: And this was in fact after he had been shot not so?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Then Mrs Marulia, she was the old person, the old woman in the last incident.  You were found guilty of housebreaking with intent to rob and robbery.  Can you tell us how entry was gained to Mrs Marulia's house and what you did specifically?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I remember getting through the door and we stole the guns that we displayed on the walls, the big firearms.  I went straight there to them and I saw a very big trunk the size of this table, it was full of ammunition and I transferred them into the bag and then with one firearm that had a two trigger and then I went into another direction.  I don't know what happened to the other people who were with me there.

MS PATEL: Okay, tell me this trunk or this room where you say the firearms were and where the trunk was, can you recall how far that was from possibly the kitchen or the storeroom of that house?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I do not have a picture how the placed looked like but it was one of the rooms with firearms displayed on the wall and the big trunk but I cannot remember but it was not in the kitchen.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Did you take any of the goods besides the gun and the firearm that was mentioned at court and that was read out I think to Jimmy earlier on, it's a radio, a gas lighter, sweets, cash, bottle of Cane, bedsheets, different types of foods, leather jacket.  Did you take any of those things?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, as I've already explained, I took the firearm and a bag with bullets, I took the bullets from the trunk and then I put them in the bag, I did not see anyone taking such items.

MS PATEL: And you didn't see anybody else taking such items either?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct, I did not see anyone taking such items from the people who were with me, we had to leave the house in a hurry, the others ran away with the car and I had to walk and I got caught on the way.

MS PATEL: Okay, so you got caught with Mr Hansel's rifle, not so?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and the ammunition that you got caught with, was that for Mr Hansel's rifle or was it some other ammunition, of ammunition that you'd taken from Mrs Marulia's place?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The bullets that he had were the bullets that I got them from where I was coming from, not Mr Hansel's bullets, those were the bullets that I got from that house.

MS PATEL: Let's just - in your application, you know the form that you filled out that you sent to us, you state in there, page 36 Honourable Chairperson of the bundle, the top paragraph.  When you talk about the incident at Mr Pretorius' place you state there that you searched the house and yet here you've denied that you searched Mr Pretorius' house?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I cannot remember that I put that information in my application.  We didn't even get inside Mr Pretorius' house.

MS PATEL: Okay.  And you also I think in connection with Mr Cobus, you state that an attempt was made to arson.  Can you briefly tell us about that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct, we got a gas cylinder there and we released the gas from the gas cylinder and we set alight and we thought that those gas cylinders were going to explode and we did not have time because it was about early hours of the morning so we left the house burning.

MS PATEL: Okay and your motivation if I understand you correctly, in getting involved in all these incidents was to get firearms and to get the farmers to leave the area, correct?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you recall whether any of these farmers that were attacked, whose homes were invaded, whether any of them were told by either yourself or anyone else in your group that they had to leave or else.  Were they warned?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I do not have knowledge about that because I was not an executive, I used to do what I was being told and it was once mentioned that they're going to be written letters telling them to leave the area, I am not sure whether the executive did that but we were looking for the weapons in the farms and driving them away and we did not know, I did not know whether those letters were written or not.

MS PATEL: Okay I'm sorry, I'm not referring to those letters, I'm referring to when you and your group of people went to the specific farms to get the weapons and to attack the farmers.  When you came to Mr Hansel, when you came to Mr Pretorius and the rest of the people that you went to, was any of them told by any one in your group at that specific time that your intention, all you wanted was firearms and for them to leave and if they didn't leave then you would force them to leave?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct, the only person that we got a chance to give him that information was Mr Goud, we did not get the opportunity of talking to the other people face to face about that, he is the only person that we met with.