Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: In your own words, you are talking about a person 
who is not unintelligent.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: I want to put it to you that your version of - 
before I do that, you say you assaulted Mr Kondile, did anyone 
else of the people you mention assault Mr Kondile?

H B DU PLESSIS: I did say that at one stage he alleged that 
some of the East London people assaulted him during the 
interrogation, but I cannot remember the details.

UNKNOWN: And what about the Eastern Cape branch?

H B DU PLESSIS: I do not know of a single person except for 
myself who assaulted him.

UNKNOWN: And related to the number of interrogations how 
often did you assault him?  Was it only during one interrogation 
or was there more than one occasion?

H B DU PLESSIS: If I can recall one case, I concede that there 
might perhaps be two.  That was at the beginning when he was 
transferred from Bloemfontein to the Eastern Cape.

UNKNOWN: Other time?

H B DU PLESSIS: I will repeat, I can recall one case and there's 
a possible second time but I don't want to be specific about that.

UNKNOWN: Can you be specific about the first time, how did 
you assault him?

H B DU PLESSIS: I can remember that I slapped him.  There is 
a possibility that I also hit him with a fist.  You must just realise 
that it happened a long time ago and I cannot remember all the 
details.

UNKNOWN: I realise it happened a long time ago and I also 
realise that you said anything can happen.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: I am putting it to you that it's most unlikely that 
you would have been so gentle with Mr Kondile.  You would 
more likely have resorted to the electrical shocks and the 
treatment described in Mr Danster's affidavit.

H B DU PLESSIS: I suppose that's what you would like to hear 
but I can just tell you what happened.  If you have any other 
information I am sorry I cannot help you any further.

UNKNOWN: In fact it's very likely that you assaulted him so 
severely that the fear of another Biko case was a real one.

H B DU PLESSIS: Definitely not.

UNKNOWN: When Mr Kondile was arrested, that is in the 
Free State and up to the time he was brought to the Eastern Cape 
what were your real intentions about this man if he refused to 
cooperate what was going to happen to him?

H B DU PLESSIS: That did not come up as far as I can 
remember, I do not want to speculate about that.

UNKNOWN: You surely speculated about it at the time.  
There was more than an equal possibility that he would not want 
to cooperate.

H B DU PLESSIS: Well according to what is said here he 
already made a good contribution.  That was already a very good 
start.

UNKNOWN: Yes but according to you in any event he didn't 
want to cooperate because he was writing to the ANC.

H B DU PLESSIS: At the end, yes, but that was only at the end.

UNKNOWN: What was your thought at the beginning about 
when that possibility eventuates what would you do with him?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, I never speculated about that.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you always under the impression that he 
was co-operating and giving you the information that you 
required?

H B DU PLESSIS: In the beginning partially, yes, but when we 
questioned him specifically about certain things it became clear to 
me that he wanted to conceal things.  I cannot remember 
specifically what it was but it dealt with, amongst others, the 
pointing out or identification of people in Transkei.   Thereafter 
he gave his full co-operation as I believe him to have done.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he identify the people in the Transkei?

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes, he even described at which desk they sat 
in the back, and as a result of this the Transkei police went to the 
back and as a result of their mistakes the two ran away and fled 
through, over the Maseru bridge, fled the country.  And one 
person is Masweyako, I can still recall the surname and I also saw 
it in these documents, as I explained it.

UNKNOWN: Earlier on, that is before lunch time, we spoke 
about the sharing of statements together and you mentioned some 
of the people who could have been present, you did say that that 
happened in Pretoria, could you tell me where exactly in Pretoria?

H B DU PLESSIS: In one or other hotel, I cannot recall the 
name, we met on occasion.

UNKNOWN: And were you the only policeman present or 
were there other persons, policemen and ex-policemen of course?

H B DU PLESSIS: I cannot think of anybody else who was 
present.

UNKNOWN: As far as the timing of your request for the Free 
State to send Mr Kondile over, having received Security reports 
on a somewhat regular basis from the Free State, why exactly did 
you time it after about two weeks for him to come over to the 
Eastern Cape?

H B DU PLESSIS: I did not time it as such.  I had to wait for 
them to transfer the man to us.  The man was arrested in the Free 
State.  I had to wait until they transferred him to us.

UNKNOWN: You have mentioned in your evidence that Mr 
Kondile was "booked out" a few times, is that correct?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember plus/minus how many times it 
was?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know.  I tried to ascertain according 
to the Occurrence Book but there is no continuity to see when he 
left, when he came back and where he was.

UNKNOWN: So the Occurrence Book entries were not 
particularly helpful?

H B DU PLESSIS: Not at that stage because I do no know where 
we took him, I cannot remember anymore, there were also 
occasions that I spoke to him in the cell.  So I cannot help you 
any more than that.

UNKNOWN: You have, of course, given evidence that other 
documents were falsified including details of his re-detention is 
that right?  That he was released and then arrested again.

H B DU PLESSIS: No, no ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Well not arrested, kidnapped.

H B DU PLESSIS: No, what I meant by that is that according to 
me he had been released.  By implication he had been released in 
the book.  I did not re-arrest him, I just never released him.

UNKNOWN: But a detention under Section 6 of the then 
Terrorism Act had certain implications regarding for example, 
visits by magistrates and doctors, not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: To questions from the Chairman of the 
Committee you seem to indicate that you were not certain 
whether these occurred or not?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know, I have no documentation in 
front of me after all the years, and I dealt with a great many 
detainees.  I cannot say whether they were examined by the 
doctor or whether they spoke to a magistrate etc.  I do want to 
go as far as to say that I do believe that he was visited by an 
inspector for detainees, I don't know why I recall that, that such 
a report from this inspector was submitted to the Harms 
Commission.  I think that the inspector for detainees at that stage 
was a Mr Koekemoer or it could have been van Zyl, I am not 
sure.  There were two of them, and I think that such a report was 
handed in, however I cannot recall this one a hundred percent, it 
is possible.

UNKNOWN: It is of course so that Mr Kondile did complain 
about being assaulted at one stage, is that right?

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes he did complain to me.

UNKNOWN: Wouldn't it have been the easiest thing in the 
world to have him actually medically treated if he was in fact not 
assaulted?

H B DU PLESSIS: I could have taken him to a doctor but he did 
not insist, and at that stage the relationship between us was so 
that he would have told me that he had pain and that he wanted to 
go to the doctor, but he didn't.  In short I can just tell you that 
he did not request to be taken to a doctor and nor did I take him, 
as far as I can remember.