Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, on page 336 of the record and you say on 
the last line of paragraph 40 you say I took these people with a 
detour to the scene so that they couldn't later be able to identify the 
premises?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

ADV POTGIETER: Why did you do that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I acted pro-actively to ensure that there would 
be the necessary compartmentalisation and that we operated on a 
need to know basis in case of future cases testimony.  In case any 
one of those people had to testify in future cases, they wouldn't be 
able to identify the place.

ADV POTGIETER: But they knew what was happening?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: They would then carry out plan B, or at least 
two of them would?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Is that also a decision which you took on your 
own?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that was one of my security measures 
which I put in place.

ADV DE JAGER: So in fact you put plan C into operation as well?

ADV POTGIETER: Just in case the people who was supposed to 
carry out plan B, decided to change their minds?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And decided that they would rather tell the 
truth, then at least they wouldn't be able to identify this place?  Is 
that how you tried to guarantee the success of the venture?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Those are precautions which I took.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that because they were subordinates?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: You couldn't always be hundred percent 
certain that there would be no problems in future once the questions 
start to be asked.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When Gilbert suggested that these people should 
be transferred, you didn't think that would solve the problem?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't think that it would solve the problem.  
I immediately thought that they would abscond.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think would solve the problem?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I think back now I don't know what I would 
say, but then I left it in his hands, I didn't think about it.  I didn't 
think what could solve the problem.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you and Gilbert were it seems to me, in 
good terms and I get the impression that he was actually open to 
suggestions from you.  He was quite prepared to discuss this issue 
with you and I would like to know why you wouldn't have, if you 
were not happy with the transfer, in the course of this discussions 
with him, why you didn't put your mind to use and come up with 
some other suggestions.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I think back to the events, he didn't ask me 
for suggestions or comment or anything like that.  I simply told him 
what I feared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he didn't have to ask you for an 
alternative suggestions, I mean he is putting across his suggestion.  
His own suggestion and if you are not happy with it, surely he didn't 
have to ask you for your own input.  The whole purpose of your 
being there with him, was precisely to discuss the problem and to 
come up with a solution?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I merely gave him the information which I 
had and I sketched the consequences which could arise.  And then I 
left the decision to him, with all respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the impression not correct as conveyed by the 
uncorrected version of your affidavit, that you came up with the 
suggestion that they should be eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I had never at any stage considered that 
they should be eliminated.  I had no action against them as far as 
that was concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: So while Gilbert suggested one solution namely 
that they be transferred, as far as you are concerned, you just didn't 
have any other solution, any alternative solution.  Your mind just 
didn't come up with anything?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.  The only thing I was 
concerned about was that should they be transferred, it could just 
exaggerate the problem and that they could abscond and that they 
would still be in a position to expose our whole Security Network.  
My security lines would have been cut off  because they were my 
eyes and ears.
	And that is why they were of crucial importance for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I should also ask you this.  Why didn't 
you take these people, detained them, assaulted them and tortured 
them as you used to do in the past, extracting information and 
admissions from them?  I mean you used to do that, the Security 
Police used to do that in the past?  We know now, you used to deny 
it, but now you don't?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you get them in, detain them, assault 
them and torture them, put big tubes in their faces, suffocate them 
like it used to happen until they brought all this information as 
opposed to killing them.  Why didn't you do that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.  But I repeat we were there to 
prevent that the information be leaked.  And I left the decision in 
Gilbert's hands.

CHAIRPERSON: But I can assure you if you had tortured them the 
way that we know people used to be tortured, I am not so sure that 
they would ever have dared to leak, take out any other information. 
 They would have been in serious trouble?  That could have solved 
the problem maybe.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Maybe, it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you think of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did not at that stage, with all respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I hear you, thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Just a follow up question.  You never at any 
stage formed the opinion that the only solution in the circumstances 
was to eliminate the people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I didn't.  I never formed that opinion.

ADV POTGIETER: You didn't see that as the only way out, the 
only way to deal with the situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, re-examination?

ADV BOOYENS: I have got no re-examination Mr Chairman.
NO RE-

ADV BOOYENS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, I notice that it is already four o'clock 
and - just a minute.

ADV FORD: I thought you were addressing me Mr Chairman, 
sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.  Actually I was trying to address myself 
to Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, nine o'clock tomorrow morning will suit 
us if you want to start at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will adjourn and then start at nine o'clock 
tomorrow morning with your client, Mr De Kock.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock will start at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until nine o'clock in the morning.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS: 145

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: PORT ELIZABETH HEARING	EASTERN CAPE/

ADV BOOYENS: 201

MR HUGO: 209

MR LAMEY: 213

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: COMMITTEE	218

MR LAMEY: 222

ADV JANSEN: 234

MR CORNELIUS: 235

MR KEMP: 238

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: MR FORD	312

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: COMMITTEE	320