Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you very much Mr Kroma, I know this may be a little awkward but it's important for us  to document  [indistinct] of abuse.  You mentioned a statement that they were and I quote - dealing with my private parts.  Awkward as it  is would you please explain what you meant by it.

MR KROMA: Well what this guy would usually do is to grab at my penis, and my testicles at certain events, and punch me in my private parts and also kick me in my private parts.  You see it was - it was difficult for me to cover, because the one would take my hands as I was handcuffed and then he had all the time and space in the world to deal.  I was worried because for a couple of months I  was non-functional.  I thought that I had lost my manhood.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: After they dismissed you, did anything else happen, I mean did they just discharge you - release you and that was it.

MR KROMA: Nothing happened after that except for the fact that during the time when Michael Lucas was -  was in court in the Supreme Court in Cape Town, they summoned us to come and give evidence.  But precisely because they understood that we - already that time, had got some legal advice to the effect that we were going to be able to go against what is written on the statement, they decided not  to call us  to give any evidence in any event.
 But they were  [indistinct] and we went to a holiday in Cape  Town for a week and came back.  Because was never did anything, we were suppose to have gone to  testify, but nothing happened.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Now at some point during your  detention, they made a statement that Michael Lucas had himself  made a statement that he killed Mr Blouw, was that in fact true, was he actually forced into making this  statement or that was a ploy.

MR KROMA: He was beaten up, he was electrocuted like I  was, and I  am tempted to say that I  doubt to the fact that Michael would have said  anything to that  [indistinct] without anything.  Because what happened there, you were not  first asked a question,  they let you taste the medicine, so that when they ask you a question you already understand what is  going to follow you see and that is - he did that statement under that interrogation.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And the last question, I know  that you  came in part to  the  Commission to ensure that your story is documented, is there anything else that you would like to have the Commission do.

MR KROMA: You see if you have asked me that question a few years ago, I would have asked the Commission to give me just about 30 minutes with each and every of those guys, just 30 minutes, that would be ample enough for  me, I  would have dealt with them.  But maybe now with - maybe also the question of political maturity saying to me that would not  be the obvious answer to the whole matter.
 But I happen to understand that you see with my case, this also happened when I  was detained in Johannesburg, that there were people who were behind getting me in there.  I know that Mngoma, Kurt Bouman, and the others, they were only stupid, there were nothing that they knew, they were very-very less effective, in fact people who have been in detention, who have been interrogated they will tell you that they are very glad when they are interrogated by Mngoma, because he was so stupid, there is nothing that he can be able to get out of you.
 What was being done, there were people who were using them and my problem is that those people who have been responsible for this, are now sitting in very high positions and we are pointing fingers to Mngoma and the rest of them and I think that is time that we can be able to get behind the whole truth and get those people.  Because to me they are the people who are suppose to come in front of the Truth Commission  as I am saying to you that there is nothing that Mngoma himself and  [indistinct] and the others did, they were just being given instructions that this - this is what you are suppose to be doing.
 I think we need to get at the bottom of the whole thing.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you very much Mr Kroma, Mr Chairman may I yield to  my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, any further questions - Russell Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Kroma when they - during the period of interrogation did they actually force you to make statements and to  sign statements.

MR KROMA: Yes they did - they did force me to make a statement, that was the first part of the interrogation.  The statement, I am not sure what was in the statement, but it went to the effect that Michael said to us he confessed to us that he was responsible in the shooting of Blouw, which was not true you see.

RUSSELL ALLY: So they actually wrote the statement and then made you sign the statement.

MR KROMA: Yes, the only thing that I  did was to sign the statement, they wrote the statement.

RUSSELL ALLY: And that was after the -  the period of torture.

MR KROMA: The first statement, they wrote me a statement during the torturing and said to me this  is  what we want you to say and this is what you are going to say.  And I - I refused because to me it was a question of sending Michael to the hangman's knot.  And I bluntly refused, but after a duress of  [indistinct]  and the continuing of the whole thing, when we were ready and in the police cells, they called us out and you know when you have been there for two hours, then you went to - and you - you were in the police cells for a few days, where you are still feeling the pains of what has been done to you and you are being called to  - to sign this statement, you don't want to go back for another two  hours in that  naughty room again.
 So the obvious choice is to sign the statement and then maybe try other means outside that of moving  [indistinct] on the fact of that statement.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the main thing in the statement was to get you  to say that Michael had told you that he had killed this policeman - that was what they were really interested in.

MR KROMA: That was what they were interested in.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry this person who was killed, who was he?

MR KROMA: I am not sure, but I think it was a bus inspector if not - ja - but  it's a Mr Blouw, is his surname, I think he was bus inspector or a driver, I am not sure but he was involved with a bus company.

RUSSELL ALLY: So was he a political motivation for this?

MR KROMA: Well I am not sure, I don't know, because I don't even know  what happened in that case of Mr Blouw.  I am not sure, I would not  be able to say to you what happened - whether it was political or what.

RUSSELL ALLY: And did you have to have any medical treatment after your period of  - when you came out.

MR KROMA: Yes, yes I  went to see a doctor, but I  don't even remember who that doctor is, it was a white doctor in town.  I don't usually get  sick, so I am not -  I don't have any doctor per se but I went to see a doctor at that time, because one of the problems was that, I was deaf, both - both my ears were deaf so I received treatment there and he - he gave me tablets and so forth and capsules and....[intervention]

RUSSELL ALLY: And since that period has that torturing left any - any long term effects do you think.

MR KROMA: No I don't think that there are any long term effect because I can - I hear properly now, and I am functioning very well, meaning that there isn't - there are no long effects at all.

RUSSELL ALLY: I am sure that as Mayor your constituency must be very please to know that you hear very well - thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton.