Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, do you agree that if this is correct;  that it is capable of the interpretation that this was not an accidental hitting against the wall, but a charged, a wilful charge against the wall so that Mr Biko's head would bang against the wall?  Do you agree with that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What would the words mean?
"Ons het hierna al drie vir Biko vasgegryp, waarna ons met hom in die rigting van die hoek van die vertrek beweeg het en met hom in die muur vasgehardloop het."
That's not an accident.  That's using him as a battering ram.  Isn't that so?

MR SNYMAN: No, that should have been due to the momentum of the movement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they try to get him into the corner?

MR SNYMAN: If I recall correctly, all of them fell on top of each other in the corner of the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they try to push him to the corner.

MR SNYMAN: In order to restrain him, it might have been possible to move him into the corner ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: ... the system again.  I can't hear you.  I'm sorry.

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that when they attempted to restrain him;  that in the course of the scuffle, they moved into the corner of the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you still maintain that this hitting of his head
against the wall, despite your own version at the bottom of page 6 and this passage that were read out from Mr Siebert's application, that it was not an attempt to actually hit his head against the wall?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.  If we can go back to the 7th;  was there any discussion as to what you were going to tell the doctor?

MR SNYMAN: I had no part in that, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please repeat that, because this system isn't working again.

MR SNYMAN: I had no knowledge of what the doctor said.  I never went into - I never conferred with the doctors.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any suggestion made that the doctor should be told that Mr Biko had had a stroke?

MR SNYMAN: I am not aware of any of the medical negotiations made by Col Goosen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know of the suggestion that Mr Biko had had a stroke?

MR SNYMAN: I'm not able to recall that, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: In any event, on the morning of the 7th, you were either told or you saw that Mr Biko was not in a state to answer any of your questions?

MR SNYMAN: That is the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: That was from way back on the 6th right up to the
morning of the 7th.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you when Dr Laing came to this interrogation room?

MR SNYMAN: I was continuing with my work on the fifth floor and I was no longer involved in the interrogation room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anybody, even Dr Laing, or anybody else, ask you how this injury was inflicted?

MR SNYMAN: At no point did I enter into conversation with the medical doctors.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know that Dr Laing gave Col Goosen a false certificate.  You know about that?

MR SNYMAN: I have heard of the certificate.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it a false certificate.

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to say, since I had not been present when the doctor saw Biko.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you knew that the certificate said that there was nothing wrong with him?

MR SNYMAN: That occurred between Col Goosen and the doctor.  What he told the doctor, I would not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know that the doctor certified that there was nothing wrong with Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I didn't bring the word of the doctor into doubt
when he had issued a certificate.

GEORGE BIZOS: But a man is injured and he can't be interrogated and this urgent interrogation has got to be interrupted. 	That means the certificate given by the doctor that there was nothing wrong with him, must be false, or you must be mistaken and you must have thought that it was okay for you to go on with the interrogation?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  Col Goosen handled the entire matter, also the visits of the doctors and I had not been present.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you've heard that the doctor had given a certificate that there was nothing wrong with Mr Biko?  You've already said that?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you also knew that he was injured and that he could not answer any of your questions and you therefore were frustrated in your investigation?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: But did you continue your investigation?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

MR SNYMAN: Because they told us that he was not in a state that we could continue with the interrogation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why should anybody say that if you have a medical certificate, say that there's nothing wrong with the man?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I did not have this medical certificate in my possession.  It was between Col Goosen and the district surgeon.  No-one brought information to me or came to tell me that there was nothing wrong with him and gave me instructions to continue with interrogation.
It was handled by Col Goosen after the visit of the doctor.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you not anxious after the visit of the doctor to try and find out what was wrong with Mr Biko and for how long he expected to be indisposed?  How long the doctor thought he would be indisposed in order for you to carry on with your work?

MR SNYMAN: I was instructed to continue with my work already.

GEORGE BIZOS: The work that you had to do with Mr Biko, I'm talking about.

MR SNYMAN: I am sorry, your Honour, but my work was on the fifth floor in my section.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you want to know from anyone when it was expected that you would be able to continue interrogating Mr Biko?

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come to your knowledge that this man was not fit enough for you to continue questioning him?  How did that come to your knowledge?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, on the 7th he was not yet fit enough for us to continue with the interrogation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you subsequently receive a further report that he
was not yet fit enough?

MR SNYMAN: I believe that I was told by the people guarding him that he was not yet fit enough for us to continue with the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: The question that is being put to you by Mr Bizos is:  were you not concerned about when he was likely to be better for you to carry on with your questioning?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, surely I was concerned about his state of well-being, but I was clearly instructed that I was not to handle the matter any further and that it was now to be dealt with by Col Goosen and that he was in good hands.

GEORGE BIZOS: In the good hands of Col Goosen for what?

MR SNYMAN: With regard to that fact that I withdrew and Col Goosen handled the matter from then onwards.

GEORGE BIZOS: What would he deal with further?  The interrogation or the state of health or non-health of Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that is the reason why I went to report to him;  with a view to obtaining medical treatment.
I went to him.  I reported that the person was injured.  One can certainly understand it that once you have reported it, you would expect there to be medical treatment.  I therefore did not involve myself any further.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, this certificate must obviously have been obtained for the purposes of misleading people that may enquire about the state of health of Mr Biko.

MR SNYMAN: That might well be the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if you are correct in your observation and the people that were looking after him after you had left the room, were of the view that he was not a fit person to be interrogated any further and Mr Goosen - Col Goosen must also have know that?

MR SNYMAN: That is the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Then the only inference that can be draw is that either Dr Lang and Col Goosen conspired to put a lie out to the world, or Mr Goosen lied to the doctor?  Can you think of any other possibility?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.