Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Honorary chairperson, the application of Mr Zeelie you can find in volume 2, pages 67 up to page 111.   Mr Zeelie, you are an applicant in this case with regards to the death of Stanza Bopape, is that correct?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: You also completed an application form which appears on page 67 to 69, volume 1?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And with that there's an annexure, and specifically Annexure B, which answers questions 10A and 10B, do you confirm that?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Is it also correct that you also made a statement with regards to these events to the district attorney, attorney-general, sorry, up to page 109?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And there's another statement which you gave to the attorney-general on page 111, is that correct?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, would you please tell the honorary committee, can you just, on page one of publication page, on page 67 at the bottom, it says
"This publication must be read with me..."
and then it's cut off on the photocopy.   That was handed in to the attorney-general and should appear on page 104 up to page 107, sorry 109.   Your honorary chairperson, you'd see that the statement on page 110 and 111 was taken only afterwards, and that statement was not part of the applicant's application and our submittance.   It's a statement which was placed there by Mr Steenkamp, and it comes from the attorney-general's office, but the statements, as you'd see, was taken in March 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.   Mr Zeelie, you also applied in other cases which is not here?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MILLER: Just to interrupt my learned friend, I notice that he hasn't referred us to page 87, I'm sorry, no, he has, I'm sorry, I do apologise, Mr Chairman, I just didn't know where this document fits in, but I see it's part of the application.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it's...

JUDGE MILLER: I'm terribly sorry.

UNKNOWN: ...from 67 to 111.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.   Mr Zeelie, when did you join the South African Police?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: 1969, in December, I joined the South African Police.

UNKNOWN: And when you left the force, which rank did you have?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That of major.

UNKNOWN: And when did you retire from the police?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The 31st of September 1993.

UNKNOWN: Sir ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure 30 September, because there's not 31 days in September?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's possible.   Maybe the head office made a mistake in the documents.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, chairman.   Mr Zeelie, after you joined the South African Police Force, you worked in the uniform branch initially?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.   Your Honour, since 1972 until 1976 in July, sorry 1975, I was at the ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: At that time you served in Rhodesia, which is now known as Zimbabwe?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: What was the nature of your service there?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I served both in South West Africa as well as the then Rhodesia.

UNKNOWN: First you worked in Rhodesia and then in South West Africa?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No, it's the other way round, first I served in South West Africa.

UNKNOWN: What did you do in South West Africa, on behalf of who or what?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I served on the borders to serve as a buffer to make sure those governments do not fall, and in order to protect the South African government, so that those countries do not fall under communist movements.

UNKNOWN: And the nature of the service you did there, was it police work in terms of war, or inquiries?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It concerned guerilla warfare.

UNKNOWN: And the service you did in Zimbabwe, what kind of service was that?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was also border, border service and specifically guerilla warfare.

UNKNOWN: Against who was this war?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was raised against terrorism, who was then under the leadership of Ngoma Mugabe.

UNKNOWN: And when that war was raged, the guerilla warfare, under who instruction did you do that service?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was under instruction of the commissioner of the South African Police.

UNKNOWN: Was it voluntary?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was under instruction, it was compulsory service.

UNKNOWN: And in those cases, were people shot, people killed?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Several of my colleagues died in shooting accidents of terrorists, as well as landmine explosions.

UNKNOWN: And the people that were represented by you, did they also kill people?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, we were involved in several actions on the border.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, when did you join the Security Branch?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Before I joined the Security Branch, I was involved with the foundation of the Unrest Units in Diepkloof, Soweto, and it was the beginning of 1970 until July 1976, and July 1976 I joined the Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: And in the Unrest Units at that stage, was there an onslaught from the ANC's side?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour, I experienced the beginning of the unrest from the very first day I was involved in Soweto, where the first white doctor was killed by black school pupils.

UNKNOWN: And those unrests, who started them?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The initial unrest, well the initial reasons was because of the fact that Afrikaans was used as a medium in schools, and later it expired that the ANC, by means of mobilisation, actually sat behind the children and motivated them to take these actions.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Zeelie, concerning these unrests, was it very violent in nature, what was the situation?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I already mentioned, from the beginning it was very violent, the first person that died was a white doctor, who was actually there to treat the people in Soweto, he had nothing against them, he was the first person to be killed in those unrests.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Zeelie, in numbers were you quite strong, or did you not have enough members, did you have enough people to fight this onslaught?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: We worked night and day, it was the beginning phase of the Unrest Units, and consequently we also made use of the force in Pretoria to help us to keep the crowds under control.   Also normal uniform members also helped us as well as police members from other areas or regions.

UNKNOWN: The 1976 unrests, did you see that, did you experience it?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I experienced it completely.

UNKNOWN: In those unrests at that stage, was the ANC well organised?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I'd say yes, the ANC was well organised.   I think since the 1960's the ANC was well organised.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, you also did service in ...(indistinct)?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, Your Honour, for a short time I did service in ...(indistinct).

UNKNOWN: And the nature of your service?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I was transferred from the Security Branch to the Detective Branch, second in command.

UNKNOWN: Now, when you joined the Security Branch ...(intervention)

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The reason why I was transferred was because of the great amount of murders that took place in that specific area by means of violence committed by the ANC there.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, who do you believe committed those murders?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was a known fact it was committed by ANC members.

UNKNOWN: And it was to a great extent, these murders?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, it was to a great extent.   Some of the members sat with more than 200 murder dockets, and these members just couldn't deal with it, there were not enough members to investigate all these murders.