Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: And the third requirement by the head of the army was that it should not put in danger the lives of innocent civilians.  That is, you know, like blowing up places where civilians would be around and things like that.
	It also, if we leave Mr Mhlawuli out of the equation, it also complied with that requirement.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that yet another one of those coincidences, or is the Committee entitled to say that the coincidence is too close to be ignored that this was an army/police operation.

MR J VAN ZYL: I really do not know about the coincidences, Mr Chairman, and I personally have no knowledge of the Defence Force involvement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Except the signal, of course.

MR J VAN ZYL: That I learnt about much later, but that is not to say that it was connected to this incident.  I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who did the army's dirty work?  During this period?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you now regard the killing as dirty work?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: It may be  a convenient stage....

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till 2 'o clock.

<UNKNOWN>: JOHAN  MARTIN

VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Our learned friend correctly pointed out that there were annexures to exhibit "K".  We have them both.  May I suggest that we mark them "K(i)" and "K(ii)" and ask for leave to hand them in?
	Could you please have a look at the end of Annexure "A" with the big numbers 103 and 104 in "K(i)".
	This is where there is a recommendation during 1984 that Mr Matthew Goniwe, Mr Ford Calata, Mr Mbulelo Goniwe and Mr Madoda Jacobs be restricted.

MR BOOYENS: My apologies.  My learned friend just mind repeating his question.  The witness had difficulty in finding what you were referring to Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, I can't hear my learned friend.  I think he was directing a question at me.
	Oh, I'll repeat the question.
	You will see that the associates or handlangers are mentioned there as Matthew Goniwe, Ford Calata, Mbulelo Goniwe and Madoda Fezile Jacobs.  You see that the first three names there correspond with the three in the signal of the 7th June 1985.  Do you agree with that?

MR J VAN ZYL: I see that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: There isn't a long list of "hangers-one" that you have suggested that were considered of sufficient importance to be dealt with in 1984.

MR J VAN ZYL: Excuse me Mr Chairman.  Where does this memor and can you tell us by whom it was sent?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  This is the annexure to the Commissioner's report.  Because he wants to give as full a picture about Mr Goniwe's activities as possible.
	Now, do you agree with that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I see that Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you agree that Mr Mhlawuli's name does not appear anywhere, doesn't feature anywhere in any meeting or anything of that nature between Mr Goniwe and Mr Mhlawuli?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right, Mr Chairman.
	Could you tell us when it was dated please, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, from the internal content you will see that it was '94, because we know that after it was submitted, Mr Goniwe was detained.  But the more relevant part is the one that we do have the dates, Mr van Zyl, and please look at "K(ii)".
	Perhaps we can give you another copy so that your Counsel can have one - now you see that this is a very interesting document in relation to the matters that we have been discussing yesterday and today.  Would you agree that this is the '85 document and it starts from 4th January 1985 and if you go to the last page, 11, to the 16th June 1985?
	Now all the "dangerous revolutionary activity" of Mr Goniwe is set out in this document.  The first one is that the American Ambassador from Pretoria called on him.  You see that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And Mrs Sheena Duncan of the Black Sash, who established the Black Sash Advice Office in Cradock, that was also noted as one of his activities.
	And then it goes on that he went to Somerset East, whilst the South Eastern Youth Congress was formed, and so it goes on.
	I don't want to take you through the whole lot, but the people that he had contact with appear on page 3  Mr Cowell, M. Peters, J.W. Cargusten, also on page 3, M.J. Hanna, M. Brink, a Susan, that he met with Ford Calata and Sparrow Mkhonto and Linda on page 4, Linda Mangeli and Zola Mangoli and Baba Doti and Msimeni Lawrence Gazi - so there is no - and that he even went to a funeral where mention was made of Mr Nelson Mandela, Mr Oliver Tambo, Mr Joe Slovo, so that whoever was gathering this information didn't spare the mentioning of any names.  On page 6, the name of Joanne Bekker, if I remember correctly an important journalist, was mentioned and a Sister Ramashwana is mentioned on page 8.  And again the same on page 9 and Van Zyl Slabbert, Andrew Savage and Moorcroft of the PFP are mentioned.  And Mr Lutusi Boy Mantiyi is mentioned on page 11.
	Nowhere, right up to the 16th June is the dangerous revolutionary Mhlawuli mentioned.
	Do you agree?

MR J VAN ZYL: I see that Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you still persist in the pretence that you considered Mhlawuli one of the "dangerous" people associating with Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: It is not a pretence, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was not a pretence, Mr Chairman.  We...

GEORGE BIZOS: It's not a pretence.
	If it's not a pretence, how come all those names are mentioned, and his name nowhere appears?

MR J VAN ZYL: I have never seen this document before.  I cannot tell you who drew it up and on what grounds.

GEORGE BIZOS: I know that you have not seen it, but do you agree that it is a continuos document showing the continuos monitoring of Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: It seems to be a summing up of the activities that were reported, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And if he was - if Mr Mhlawuli was prominent, according to your evidence in order to justify his killing, was anywhere near Mr Goniwe in circumstances in which it was suspected that he was involved in unlawful activities with Mr Goniwe, how come his name doesn't appear there?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot give you an explanation for that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And  this was an important document because obviously it was sent as a summary to the Commissioner of Police for the purposes of recommending to the Security Secretariat whether or not Mr Goniwe was to be re-instated into his job or not.

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot comment on who sent him this information for the purpose of his detention, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but what does it look like?
	Does it not look like a summary of Mr Goniwe's file which was conveniently destroyed after his death?

MR J VAN ZYL: Security Branch Headquarters in Pretoria, Mr Chairman.  This was what was reported on SAP67's at their disposal.