Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't recall whether I was part of it or not Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, that would have been an important decision for your party in which you held office as to whether to oppose it or to support it.  It would have been an important decision?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It would have been one of many decisions the party makes Mr Chairman, in respect of all legislation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And you as a leading member must have been party to the decision to oppose the Indemnity Bill as the Conservative Party did.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wasn't a member of Parliament then Mr Chairman, and as I said I can't recall - you were going to give me the date.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I will come to the dates, just answer my question in the mean time.
	Do you recall whether Mr Koos Botha complained bitterly in Parliament that he stood alone in K-court in Pretoria and the Conservative Party didn't come anywhere near him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I was aware of the Mr Chairman, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you recall of his complaint that the Conservative Party hierarchy was full of bluster, words, but when it came to action, they did nothing?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am aware of that statement Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you remember that your colleagues in the Conservative Party attacked him in strong terms in Parliament for suggesting that his act of blowing up a school which was going to be used partly for Black pupils, was in furtherance of the Conservative Party policy was an act with which the CP would not associate with because they did not believe in violence at all, but that they had a political programme to put into operation, do you recall that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't recall those exact details Mr Chairman, but I do recall that that speech was held after Mr Koos Botha had been expelled from the Conservative Party for bringing embarrassment upon the Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well I am going to hand in Hansard in order to show that from October 1992 you had the clearest possible notice that the leadership of the Conservative Party and those who were responsible for its policy, disapproved of violence and they rejected Mr JJC Botha's statements that he acted on behalf of the Conservative Party.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I recall them criticising them because he kept on blaming the Conservative Party Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Let me read the words that you would no doubt have come into your notice Mr Derby-Lewis, when you committed this murder as to the policy of the Conservative Party on whose behalf you claim to have acted.
	I am reading Mr Chairman, I thought that copies have been made, they have not.  We will see to it that copies will be made for the Committee, but may I read out the relevant passage.  Listen carefully Mr Derby-Lewis, what your colleague Mr DP du Plessis said.    Who is Mr DP du Plessis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was the member of Parliament for Wonderboom Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: A senior member of the CP?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: A member of the CP, a member of the CP caucus.

GEORGE BIZOS: A member of the CP caucus.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

GEORGE BIZOS: And in caucus is it decided that the person that is going to speak on a specific issue, carries with it the approval of the caucus?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Unless he is repudiated Mr Chairman, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Unless he is repudiated.   But important things are discussed in the caucus?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wasn't aware of a discussion surrounding Mr Du Plessis' speech and I am quite sure Mr Chairman that his speech would not be discussed as such in the caucus.

GEORGE BIZOS: But the line, the caucus would give the line which was to be followed?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not necessarily Mr Chairman, the members of Parliament had a large degree of independence in terms of what they said in speeches as long as it didn't contravene Conservative Party policy.

GEORGE BIZOS: That is good enough for my purpose, just listen to what he said Sir.   It is Wednesday, the 21st of October 1992, at page 12806 Mr Chairman on the right- hand column.
"The Honourable member said that he was at the Voortrekker Monument at 26th of May 1990.  At the Voortrekker Monument it was said that the third liberation struggle had begun.  Of course the third liberation struggle has begun [Interjections]
		The fact that I say that the Honourable members here today does not imply that they should go out and plant bombs tomorrow [Interjections]
		There were 130 000 people present at the occasion.  How many of them have gone out and planted bombs?
		My Honourable leader...."
that would be Dr Treurnicht, wouldn't it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "My Honourable leader has said repeatedly that nothing gives an individual the right to commit crimes or misdeeds.  If he does commit them, he does so at his own peril, he should know that there are laws in this country and if he breaks them, he should take the blame and punishment for it.
	Now, surely such an important statement must have come to the notice of an important leader of the Conservative Party such as yourself?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as a member of the President's Council I was not a recipient of the  Hansard, and unless I was in Cape Town and in the House at that time I wouldn't have heard about it.
	But Mr Chairman, let me also say that I could quite easily understand from a political point of view, Mr Du Plessis repudiating Mr Koos Botha, because Mr Koos Botha was no longer a member of the Conservative Party when he was repudiated.  He had been fired.

GEORGE BIZOS: Before or after the bomb?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not sure of those dates but I know that by the time Mr Du Plessis made the speech he had been fired.

GEORGE BIZOS: You will not divert me in my questions Mr Derby-Lewis, the question is a simple one.  Would an important member representing the Conservative Party at the President's Council, not be aware of what Mr Du Plessis said on behalf of the Conservative Party in Parliament on the 21st of October 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.  I would have been.

GEORGE BIZOS: You would have been aware of it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not of all of the details, but certainly that it had been said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Certainly that the leader says don't commit crimes?  Is that right?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, then you must describe a crime.  When is a crime a crime, when you are involved with a freedom struggle, is a crime a crime?  When you are involved in a wartime situation...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Murder is a crime Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But then Mr Chairman, then you must refuse to accept the ANC's crimes as well, because they also murdered.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, Mr Derby-Lewis, you missed the point entirely, let's leave the ANC cases for another hearing Mr Derby-Lewis, let's deal with yours.
(Loud clapping and laughing)
	The issue is not whether, the issue that I am questioning you on is whether you acted on behalf of the Conservative Party or not and I am asking you and the Committee with respect, is entitled to a straight answer.  Did you or did you not know that your leader said do not commit crimes through the mouth of Mr Du Plessis on the 21st of October 1992?
	Do you want me to repeat the question?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was aware of that newspaper report.

GEORGE BIZOS: To the effect, correctly reporting what is in the Hansard?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In the Hansard, when I have a look at the Hansard I will be able to answer the question Mr Chairman.  Mr Bizos has said he will provide us with that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  This particular page is actually attached to the bundle, I have a fuller - it is at page R3 F, pages 1 and 2 Mr Chairman, 1, 2 and 3.

CHAIRPERSON: What page Mr Bizos, please.

GEORGE BIZOS: R3, Section F, 1 to 3.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it Mr Chairman, there are no page numbers on this Hansard or dates.

GEORGE BIZOS: Page 1  -  3.