Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I would go there and then ask, even in the presence of the victim as to who is screaming here, and the victim would not say it is me, and the interrogators too would not tell me who was screaming, and then I will then say, 'look, I heard the scream', but okay I went back to my office, although I knew exactly who was screaming.  It was either one of the victims.

ADV BOSMAN: But my question is really did you establish what methods were being used?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I didn't want to establish the methods, because, remember if I condone all these methods, it was not necessary for me to find out what methods were used.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether I have misunderstood you here, but, you said that you know that if there were excesses, you would tell them not to exceed the bounds.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So what I'm asking is, did you make enquiries as to whether it fell within the bounds set by you?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.  If it did not fall within the bounds then I wouldn't have gone back without having called one of the senior men there and say, 'look, it seems you are now exceeding the bounds.'  But in this case, Mr Chair, I did not see the methods used.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you define to them the bounds, or was that just as an unsaid, what the bounds were?  What did you yourself believe the bounds to be?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No it was unsaid.  You know it's for a reasonable person to identify or to define excessive methods.  I think it's easy for him to understand which one is excessive, which is not excessive.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an electric shock device available at the place where they were being interrogated?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Ja.  If I remember very well, yes we had a  telephone - I don't know what, it's a sort of a telephone instrument, you know the one you use to dial.

CHAIRPERSON: The one with the crank dial?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't understand you.  I'm not on the same page with your evidence so far.  Are you saying you authorised certain methods to be used in order to extract information on the people that were arrested by you? Did you authorise any method to your underlings to use on those detainees?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, I didn't say I authorised my subordinates to use any methods.  The methods were left at the discretion of the interrogators, but if they were excessive, obviously I would see in the face of the suspect that obviously excessive methods was used.  Then I had to find out what method was used so that we are able to get this person to the hospital or somewhere.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are aware that your underlings were using unconventional methods in extracting information from detainees?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You condoned those methods?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes I did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, so you were aware of all those methods?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I was aware, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you say if there were excesses you would intervene, and the excesses would be determined by looking at the face of a detainee?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What do you mean by that?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: What I'm trying to say is, I was not all the time available or present during the interrogations, so it was going to be difficult for me to say whether the methods that they were using, if I'm physically there, are acceptable or excessive.  But if I'm not there and I hear someone screaming, okay obviously that could be, it will mean this person is enduring a lot of pain or something like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Then I'll rush there and find out what is happening.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So a scream to you would indicate that the methods used were being excessive is that what you are saying?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I mean that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You never defined to your underlings the bounds beyond which they were not to go in interrogation when applying certain methods?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, no, because of one thing the interrogation staff was not trained by me.  They were trained by our South African counterparts.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, but they were operating under your command, is it not so?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, under my command, but not all the time under my command.  Like I indicated, these people, the victims, were interrogated when I was not attached to the investigation itself.  Only at a later stage did I come in.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm talking about when you were in charge  of this investigation.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.  When I was in charge of the investigation I know of some screams that I heard, and I went to find out what was all about it, why did the, would someone scream, then I will go and look at what is happening.  Now I would also ask the victim, and ask him who was screaming, what is the problem?  Then if he doesn't tell me what the problem is then obviously I wouldn't know what kind of methods was used.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage see any of the detainees involved as referred to in paragraph 15 to be in such a state that they required, in your opinion, medical attention?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.  I think I know of one, I know of one - 15.4, Dean Farisani.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see regarding him?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I can't recall very clearly, I mean it's long ago, its about 18 years or so ago.  But okay I could see the signs that he was actually assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  General, to get right to the point, is it correct that you were aware of the fact that your subordinates were assaulting and torturing some of these detainees?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: Were you in the position to order them to stop with those methods of interrogation?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I did not have all the rights to do it.  I was the Deputy Chief of Security.  I had a Chief above me and then I had a Commissioner above me, I had the President above me.  And to indicate to you how difficult it was going to be for me to tell my subordinates to stop using the methods on the suspects, I think it could have cost me my job.   	Although I did not mention it because it was not relevant, but now that it is becoming relevant I had at the previous year apprehended, not in actually myself apprehended but the our branch apprehended one of the three members, the three men that I indicated just below the list of those victims, that is the last name, John Mwendamutse Mamabolo, he's my cousin, and then I released him because I could not prefer a charge against him.  It was before he was involved in this incident.  And why I reasoned because I could not charge him with any offence.  He was busy moving around placing stickers on vehicles with the emblem, the Battle of Isandhlwana.  And then when he was arrested then I could not prefer charges against him, I said he should be released, not because he was because my cousin but because there was no charge I could lay against him.  So I was told if you do that again  you will find yourself at the central Matachi Prison, or you will find yourself without job.
	So it was difficult for me to say no don't do that and do that, although outside here it appeared that we had control over the whole Security Branch.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you satisfied Mr Meyer with the answer given by Mr Ramushwana to your question?  I don't know he seems to have deviated from what you actually wanted him to respond to.  Your question, as I recall was whether he was in a position to have stopped his underlings from continuing with the methods they were using.