Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR DREYER: Well that brings me to the conclusion, I say again to you I have got no knowledge where I can say, you allege it, and I do take note of it, you say that you received your orders from him?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: I cannot take responsibility for that, but you said you did not acted regarding those instructions, I'm just asking you, sir, when, after this incident, you saw that nothing else happened out of the total structure of the AWB, you certainly did not believe that the rest of the AWB members, the military members, ignored all other instructions and did not continue, it could not have happened?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I don't know what the question is?

MR DREYER: I'll ask again, are you saying that after this incident you believed that, although there was a military order or command from the top structure, that all other area commanders and the people who were a rank below them, ignored this command or order and did not execute it, when it was decided by the top structure that "tonight, the 12th, revolution starts"?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I believed, or I wondered why the others did not execute the order.

MR DREYER: Now I'll put it to you, sir, the reason for this is, it's very obvious, it's simple, there was no order from a rank above the rank of your commander, Mr Klopper, he may have conveyed it to you, but I put it to you there was no such an order and that is why, in other areas, nothing happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to comment on that?
TAPE TURNED OVER - WORDS LOST
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER

MR BRINK: When you were at the roadblock and these two cars were stopped and the occupants were taken out, did you hear any of your colleagues asking questions of the occupants, or not?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, I was too far away.

MR BRINK: Praat in Afrikaans.

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, I was too far away, I could not hear anything.

MR BRINK: Goed, dankie.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR MALAN: The last question that the chairperson asked you if you had any comment, you said no, it was Mr Dreyer's opinion.   He said are you worried about that, that only your unit acted on that evening.   Mr Dreyer tried to present you with an answer in his opinion and the reason was that there was no such order.   Have you got any other possibility or any other explanation why that happened?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, Mr Chairperson, I believe everyone tries to find a reason why it did not happen.

MR MALAN: So at this stage you've got no reason.   Is the reason that Mr Dreyer put to you, is that a possibility in your eyes?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR MALAN: So you still think that there was, there still was such an order and the others just did not execute it?  Are you honest if you say that, or do you say that or any other reason?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, I'm honest.

MR MALAN: You still believe that there was such a national order and everybody ignored it except Chief Commander Kloppers?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I do not believe everyone ignored it, because there were certain explosions.

MR MALAN: No, I'm talking about that specific night.   I'm not trying to confuse you, I just want to know if you honestly believe that, for some reason nobody else did it, but the order was there, that it did exist?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: My impression of the revolution was that it begins in small groups and only certain selected groups begins with instigating chaos and revolt, and certain groups takes over in this chaos situation to take it further.  It's like a small group that started, there must be a beginning point, and I believed that we were that group.

MR MALAN: So it would not have bothered you if no-one else did it, because your group was that evening the starting point?   Why did it bother you then?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Because it was only one small starting group.

MR MALAN: You expected there to be more other small groups?  I would just like to ask you another thing, in cross-examination you said that General Oelofse said to you what you must do in the criminal procedures and what evidence you must give, he's an officer, you are on his instruction and you executed it?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR MALAN: I'm paraphrasing you, it was not your words, but that is how I understood you.

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Certain things were asked or told to us not to say during the proceedings.

MR MALAN: And because he was an officer, you listened to him?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR MALAN: And if Chief Commandant Kloppers would have directed the same request, would you have handled it in the same way?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct.

MR MALAN: If he requested you to do this regarding the amnesty application, would you have done it in the same way?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, as a soldier and he gave me the order, and if I still was, or if I was a soldier under his command, I would have done it, yes.

MR MALAN: Since when have you not... (intervention).

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I haven't been a soldier under him since 1995.

MR MALAN: Were you at any stage part of any planning when they talked about what we would say at certain stages, were you part of that?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR MALAN: And then at any stage, or at no stage, did you correspond or discuss with the others what you would say in your amnesty application?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, I was separated from them from the beginning of my (indistinct), or charge, I was alone.

MR MALAN: Who submitted your application?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: In consultation with my lawyers.

MR MALAN: Did they also act on behalf of the others during that period?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I do not know on behalf of whom they acted.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

ADV BOSMAN: Sir, this incident when you were on your way to the roadblock when these black people were chased and you also took part in it, my impression, after the evidence of Mr Visser, that this was a bit of fun, or... (intervention).

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct, that is how it appeared.

ADV BOSMAN: Don't you find it strange that while you're on the way to such a serious operation, that you'd stop along the way and have some fun?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is Commandant Kloppers and Martins was very angry and sent me to go and fetch these people and tell them to stop it and come along, there's no time for such things.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you give any reason why the people was in a mood to have fun, because it bothers me, I do not understand it?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, I cannot say.

ADV BOSMAN: Is it not possible that the alcohol consumption played a role, that maybe earlier in the day they drank?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I won't be able to say.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know people, or do you know when someone is under the influence of alcohol?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Definitely, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Would you say that they were under the influence of alcohol, because you went to go and talk to them?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I knew some of them and they were definitely not under the influence of alcohol.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Mr Chairperson, may I just ask a follow-up question, maybe Mr Prinsloo must help me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard you say that when you got out, you also assaulted the black people?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You are sent to go and stop them and go and fetch them, but you also take part in the assault, did I hear you correctly?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, the black person, while they hit him, he swore at us, and that is when that I would also hit him, because I don't like when people swear at me.