Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Honourable Chairman, I was taken there by my legal advisors and surely the person puts his stamp there, I see him but I don't know this person personally.

MR VAN WYK: Were you not introduced?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: With due respect, Honourable Chair...[intervention}

CHAIRPERSON: Question - were you introduced to this person?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well in a way yes.

MR VAN WYK: So then you knew him.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  When you went there on the second time were you introduced again?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Are you talking about the second application?

MR VAN WYK: No your affidavit was signed before him and thereafter your application for amnesty followed a few months later so you signed, it portends to be signed in front of him twice?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That could be so.

MR VAN WYK: Why I'm asking you this is that I want to ascertain whether your application has been duly commissioned?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: It has.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you have any cause Mr van Wyk to believe that it has not been duly attested?

MR VAN WYK: That is why I'm asking this witness whether he knows this person because we know that in several occasions certain affidavits have been made and it portends to be commissioned by somebody that the person making the statement has not even seen him that's why I addressed my question to this witness to ascertain it for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there an issue as to whether his application to comply with the act?

MR VAN WYK: That is exactly what I wanted to ascertain whether it complies with the Act because he said he didn't know this person - but I'll leave it there.

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Mr Singaram, that morning you went to Lancet Hall is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is so.

MR VAN WYK: And you were informed by certain people that there was an exchange of fire, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Actually, by one person I asked and he said there was an exchange of fire, that is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand you correctly that this person told you that there was an exchange of fire, in other words, some of the Zulu people shot at the ANC guards and some of the ANC guards shot at the Zulu people, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well actually, I was only there for seconds and the person just informed me there was an exchange of fire, no details and I left thereafter.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand you correctly he did not tell you that the one party shot at the other and the second party shot at the first, he did not tell you that, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: He just said there was an exchange of fire.

MR VAN WYK: Did he tell you that two of the parties shot at each other - did he tell you that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I repeat, he said there was an exchange of fire and that was all.

MR VAN WYK: Why I'm asking you is this specifically with reference to your evidence at the inquest at page 3873 where you now say you were not informed that the one party shot at the other, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well to recollect that there was some mention that there was a rush at the building and there was an exchange of fire.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand you that there were no words used that the one party shot at the other party, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I cannot recall that but there was an exchange of fire.

MR VAN WYK: Because the record reads as follows: "But when you left Lancet Hall in your mind at least you had been informed that both parties had shot at each other?" and you replied "Yes".  Is that the correct position?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well I would presume that an exchange of fire is between from different sides, that is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, just give us the reference to the record where that happened, you're making reference, just go to the page reference or to the line whatever?

MR VAN WYK: It was at page 3873 and lines 4 to 5.
	Now, Mr Singaram, there were two incidents that day at Lancet Hall and I suppose this incident you're referring to was at the entrance at Jeppe Street, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I'm not well conversed with what actually happened at Lancet Hall, I didn't do an investigation, I just went there, took Mr Mshlanga to those offices, he went in, I just spent a minute there and returned back to Shell House.

MR VAN WYK: Let me take it up this way - did you go to the entrance of Lancet Hall at Jeppe Street?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I went up to the entrance but as I pointed out, there was lots of people around, it was not very ...[inaudible] in a normal way, there was ambulance around those people, around - so I just left Mr Mshlanga there, he went in and I returned, I didn't enter the building or anything as such.

MR VAN WYK: So you were at the entrance of Lancet Hall in Jeppe Street, is that right?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Because I want to put it to you what happened earlier that morning is that there were a few Zulu people walking along Jeppe Street and that they will deny that they in any way attacked Lancet Hall.  Have you got any comment on that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I can only say what I heard.

MR VAN WYK: There will also be a denial that those people were in any way armed with firearms, is there any comment on that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I have none.

MR VAN WYK: I also want to put it to you according to all the evidence there was no exchange of fire with firearms that morning at the entrance of Lancet Hall and Jeppe Street.  Have you any comment on that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I can only say what I heard.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know that several of the guards of the ANC also testified in respect of this incident and there was no evidence at the inquest forthcoming that there was any attack on them with firearms.  Any comment on that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I can only say what I heard.

MR VAN WYK: Well can you tell us from whom you heard it, this rumour?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I want to also put it into context that I'd only arrived about four months prior to Gauteng, I was in the Eastern Cape and many people I did not know so this person was just - I just spoke to that person and that's all.  I don't remember, recollect his name or anything.  You don't know whether he even told you a blatant lie, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Pardon me?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] whether there's any point in asking a question like that?

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman, I see it's one o'clock, is this a convenient time to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE AJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR VAN WYK: (continues)
	Mr Singaram, in preparation for your application I suppose you have read your transcript of your evidence at the inquest, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: (s.u.o.)
	That is so.

MR VAN WYK: Do you confirm the contents thereof?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I do.

MR VAN WYK: Did you also read your colleagues evidence?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No.

MR VAN WYK: At the corner of King George and Plein Streets on the corner where you were, did you see Mr Khumalo there?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No.

MR VAN WYK: Did you see him that day?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Pardon me?

MR VAN WYK: Did you see him that day at all?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I would like to confirm what I've said before, I had come from the Eastern Cape and many of the people around Shell House I had not known and Mr Eddie Khumalo at that point in time I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time you said ...[intervention]

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No at that time I did not know Mr Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not know Mr Khumalo but subsequently you came to know him?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: You might not have known him at the time but since then you've come to know him, did you see him that day?