Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR PATEL: Yes.  If Mr Chairman has regard to page 20, then I have just finished paragraph 2.2 with the applicant.  As it pleases you.
	The third incident that amnesty is claimed for is the murder of Chris Ngwenya, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR PATEL: And you also claim amnesty for the murder Lindiwe Nkosi?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR PATEL: You also claim amnesty for the attempted murder of Thembisile Nkambule?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR PATEL: Finally, you claim amnesty for general instructions that you issued to set up self-defence units and who were to illegally arm themselves and to protect themselves and the community from unlawful attacks and at all costs to achieve a stability in the area, do you confirm that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Patel, what offence is constituted in terms of Point 6
"Setting up protection structures for self-defence purposes"
In terms of what offence is this?

MR PATEL: The offence would flow from what the self-defence units did.  He as a commander set up or instructed them to set up self-defence units for a certain purpose.  If what the self-defence units then did was illegal, and we've heard evidence of what self-defence units did insofar as they did commit these crimes as part of a self-defence unit which this applicant was one of the founders of, in that respect he claims amnesty.

ADV SANDI: Is that not what Point 1 to 5 pertains to?

MR PATEL: Points 1 to 5 are specific incidents.  As the Committee has already heard evidence, there were other incidents apart from what is covered in Points 1 to 5.  As it pleases you.
	The offences that we've just outlined and for which you claim amnesty, in a nutshell could you explain to the Committee what your motivation was for perpetrating the offences?

J A MKHWANAZI: There was war at Ermelo, people were fighting.

MR PATEL: And what purpose was the - let's take it this way, you gave express instructions to assassinate two people, am I correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: And who were these two people?

J A MKHWANAZI: It Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya.

MR PATEL: In addition you gave general instructions, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR PATEL: To whom were these instructions given?

J A MKHWANAZI: It was directed to Mzwandile Gushu.

MR PATEL: Insofar as the assassination of Chris Ngwenya is concerned, who did you give the instructions to?

J A MKHWANAZI: I gave it Mzwandile Gushu and Paulus Nkonyane.

MR PATEL: Insofar as the assassination of Jwi Zwane is concerned, who did you give the express instruction to?

J A MKHWANAZI: It was Mzwandile Gushu.

MR PATEL: According to you Mr Mkhwanazi, the two people namely Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane, who were they?  Were they members of any political party?

J A MKHWANAZI: They were Black Cat members who were responsible for the violence here in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: As a commander of the ANC, how did you view people and leaders of the IFP?

J A MKHWANAZI: The leaders of IFP who were involved in violence were the enemies of ANC.

MR PATEL: In the issuing out of your instructions to Gushu, in what capacity were you acting?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was a member of the Special Committee ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the applicant please repeat the answer?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was giving him instructions as he was a commander of the MK, uMkhonto weSizwe.

MR PATEL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mkhwanazi, the question your legal representative put to you a few moments ago was: To what political party did Ngwenya and Zwane belong and your answer was that Ngwenya and Zwane were Black Cat members and I don't see the connection.  What connection did you see between the Black Cat members and a political party, or did you regard the Black Cats group as a political party?  It's not clear from your evidence.

J A MKHWANAZI: They were Black Cat members and they were also IFP members.

MR PATEL: I thank you Madam.
	The last question I asked you Mr Mkhwanazi is, in issuing out your instructions to Mr Gushu, what capacity were you acting in?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was the commander of uMkhonto weSizwe.

MR PATEL: Did you specifically get instructions from anybody else in the ANC command?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was accountable to the Chief of Staff of the uMkhonto weSizwe, that was Chris Hani.

MR PATEL: The acts for which you claim amnesty for, were you paid any salary or any other kind of remuneration for your services?

J A MKHWANAZI: No.

MR PATEL: Now just to cover some specific events, insofar as Mr Gushu was concerned, did you check out his credentials when you first met?  In other words did you check out whether he was a member of the ANC, whether he was a cadre etc?

J A MKHWANAZI: I tried to check those.  Mzwandile Gushu was brought to me by JJ Mabena and I asked JJ to confirm Mzwandile with the structure where he was actually coming from, where Mzwandile Gushu was coming from.  And the way - when I was training him, I realised that he was not, he was experienced in using the firearm, he was ready.  So it was just a refresher course.

MR PATEL: Where exactly did you train him?

J A MKHWANAZI: The refresher course, where did that take place?

J A MKHWANAZI: It was in Nelspruit.

MR PATEL: Do I understand from your answer that you did check out his military expertise?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was satisfied the way he was responding to the training and the idea that he had concerning the firearms.  That indicated to me that he was trained before and therefore he had to take a refresher course.

MR PATEL: Were you satisfied that if you gave him instructions he would act responsibly?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I was satisfied because I spent two weeks with him and the discipline that he showed, and even if we were discussing the political situation you could see that he was matured and he clearly understood the situation.

MR PATEL: In issuing out the various instructions that you did give to him, did you expect him to work on his own?

J A MKHWANAZI: I didn't think that way.  I told him that it was necessary for him to establish the SDU's whom he would be a commander of and issue instructions because he wouldn't be able to do all the work alone, meaning to normalise the situation, so he needed some assistance.

MR PATEL: Insofar as training is concerned, apart from training or the refresher course that you went through with Mr Gushu, did you train any other people in the use of military weapons, in the use of weapons?

J A MKHWANAZI: Do you mean here inside the country or across the borders?

MR PATEL: No, just inside the country, in the Ermelo, Piet Retief and Secunda areas.

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I also trained Pistol Nkonyane(?).

MR PATEL: Anybody else?

J A MKHWANAZI: So far those are the only people that I can remember.

MR PATEL: Now we've heard Mr Gushu give evidence about the envisaged attack on the Mandela Squatter Camp, can you tell the Committee what your role was if any, in that regard?

J A MKHWANAZI: I didn't play a role except when Mzwandile came to me and he reported that there was a possibility that the Mandela Squatter Camp would be attacked.
	He told me about the action that they had taken.  I approved that if they've the necessary action to prevent the Mandela Squatter Camp from being attacked, it was a good decision.

MR PATEL: The AK47 and Makaroff pistol that you claim amnesty for or being in possession of, where did you obtain this?

J A MKHWANAZI: I got it from Delby in Germiston.  When I came into the country I was given an instruction that in Germiston I was going to get the DLB and I was going to get a Makaroff and an AK47.

MR PATEL: Will you just for the purposes of everybody, just tell us what a DLB is?

J A MKHWANAZI: It is a dead letterbox where you hide something, weapons or messages, anything that you will be able to keep there so that somebody else will get it there, we call that a DLB.