Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I have no knowledge of that, I only know the unit I was involved in, which I was involved in.

MR LAX: So you didn't see other members going out on operations?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I never saw them going on such missions.

MR LAX: So was yours the only unit that was doing operations at that time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I would not know that it was the only one.  What I know is that anybody who leaves the base going wherever, those people who are left behind are not supposed to know where those you are leaving are going.

MR LAX: Now, you said early in your re-examination that you were protecting your commander when you were going to give evidence at the trial.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I was protecting him.

MR LAX: And you said you were afraid of him being arrested.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: What were you afraid of?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Is that he be arrested, perhaps that could cause something or cause trouble with my life and that of my family.

MR LAX: So you were worried that if he was arrested you would seen to be, to use the coloqual term, an impiempie and that would have implications for you and your family?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.
	There's just one aspect I want to ask you on Mr Ncamazana.  If you turn to page 126 of the documents before us, this is Tona's evidence and it's really essentially, this is where he is saying as far as he was concerned he was going to East London to steal a car, that's essentially what he's saying here.  In particular on page 126 he says that
"Accused number one and I went out"
the last sentence of that first paragraph.  And he goes on to talk about going to look for vehicles, did you do this with him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I never did such a thing.

MS GCABASHE: Are you saying that what you recall of Tona's evidence is false essentially, all of it is false, about going to East London to steal a car?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, it's not true.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Two points I'd like you to assist me with.  One is, have you got any other names for Makabongwe Mfundisi, the person referred to in your original application at page 29?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Makabongwe Mfundisi is TNT.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's been mispelt where he's spelt as Malibongo Fundisa, when your counsel put it at page 166 line 13?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, it is incorrectly spelt.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have referred to JJ quite often in your evidence, is that not so?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he been present at these hearings while you have been giving that evidence?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Are you saying was he here in this hall or where?

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here in this hall?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, he was here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still here?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I don't know whether he's still here.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ncamazana, would I be correct to think that you were in a hurry when you came to this Bahai Church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we were in a rush because we were told to be fast and return after having made the attack successfully.

ADV SANDI: I notice from the documents we have here that at least two people say there was singing going on there amongst the things that were taking place?  You did not hear any singing, was that because of the hurry you were in?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It may be that I was too much in a hurry, that may be why I did not hear the singing.

ADV SANDI: I also understand that you did not even hear the person who had said these people were not whites in the South African sense, have a look at them, you did not hear that one?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not hear him or her.

ADV SANDI: You do not dispute that such words were uttered by the person concerned?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot deny because I was outside, I was not inside the church hall, I was at the door.

ADV SANDI: All in all you were anxious that the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and you dissapear from the scene?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV SANDI: Had you not done so you could have risked the possibility of putting yourselves in trouble?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I would not know whether we would be at risk but what I knew was that we had to be fast and quickly dissappear as was the case.

ADV SANDI: Finally, would you be able to estimate the number of people who were inside the church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: My estimation is about 30 but I would not be sure about the number.

ADV SANDI: Is that also because of the hurry you were in?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Besides my being in a hurry I also did not go inside to look at all the people who were there.  At the position at the door I could see that there are many people inside the church.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ncamazana.
	Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence.

MR LAX: Just one thing Chairperson, I just want to put on record that I've noticed that some of the annexures to your middle application are missing.  I've asked Mr Prior to try and make them available to me and I just want to place on record that I may want to ask some questions arising out of those annexures as soon as I've had a proper look at them.  This is the typed application, none of the annexures are before us unfortunately and I've just noticed that now and I just wanted you to leave that possibility open to us.  I just wanted to make that known.

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you on?

MR LAX: The application that starts at page 32 of the papers and runs through to page 38.  There are extensive annexures mentioned there, A and B, C, D and E, none of those annexures are before us unfortunately, and Mr Prior will make them available as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We were going to, as I understood it, allow the applicant to read this passage during the adjournment but I don't know if he needs all that much time.
	You've had a chance to read it Mrs Collett?

MS COLLETT: That's correct, I have read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think if we take a very brief adjournment now for a matter of two or three minutes, he could go through that passage and we could then complete that questioning?

MS COLLETT: I don't have a problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a short as an adjournment as possible to enable the passage from ...[intervention]

MR LAX: It's the passage that starts at about line 22 and runs through to the end of that page basically.

CHAIRPERSON: To have the whole of the passage - well I think it should go to page 996.

MR LAX: In fact Chairperson, sorry, it's really a short passage, it's about 6 lines.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if they will interpret to him the general thing in page 995 from line 20 to page 996 line 10.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman sorry, before we take the short adjournment could the public be informed that we are reconvening within a short time, that there's not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This is not the midday adjournment, we are going to adjourn for a few minutes and then come back and complete I hope, this questioning and then we will take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Has your client had an opportunity of reading this passage or having it interpreted to him?

MS COLLETT: He has Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Ncamazana, you are still under oath.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: (s.u.o.)

MR LAX: Now, you see from this passage on this document ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Chair, shall we make this the next exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: G.

MR LAX: G, ja.
	This is an extract from the transcript of your trial, do you understand that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I know Sir.

MR LAX: Now, your counsel at the time was Mr van Niekerk, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And he was asking you about when you joined the armed struggle and when that struggle ended.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That's correct Sir.