Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MR SAMUELS: I call Thanduxolo Patrick Mquibi 7375/97 on page 237.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mqibi what language do you wish to speak?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Zulu.

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: (sworn states)

MR SAMUELS: Mr Mquibi how old are you?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: 44.

MR SAMUELS: And are you a member of the ANC?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: And you were a commander of Extension 2, is that correct?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes I was then.

MR SAMUELS: Are you also known as Meneer?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes I'm known as Meneer.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Now Mr Mqibi, you're applying for two counts of arson, is that correct?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: I didn't burn anyone's house but I sent people to go or I instructed people to burn somebody's houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all he's applying for?

MR SAMUELS: Yes there are two counts of arson.  This applicants evidence could be heard in chambers, is that what you're alluding to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: This evidence will be very short, it's only to say "Yes I gave a command and yes it was followed", it will be very short evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SAMUELS: The first incident of arson was to burn down whose home?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Mr Masibuko's house.

MR SAMUELS: When was that?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: February 1993.

MR SAMUELS: And who did you order, who did you give these orders to?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Comrades Sibusiso Afrika and other many guys because Phola Park were helping us.  The only one that I remember was Sibusiso because I sent him to go and tell other comrades and he told other people from Phola Park as well.

MR SAMUELS: I see and do you know whether the house was burnt down or not?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: I know it was burnt down.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Masibuko's house.

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Mr Masibuko's house.

MR SAMUELS: The second incident, whose home did you order to be burnt down?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Sibongele's house.

MR SAMUELS: Now what order did you get?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: After I met with Ben and I discovered that he was from a meeting, the community meeting, I discovered that Sibongele was an IFP member.  I got this from Ben Mashinini.  As an elderly, older than Ben, I said to Ben if that's the case then she deserves to die including the people who are staying with her.  At that time, it was at night, I left with Ben.  When we arrived at Danger Zone I met Jambo and Mgwele, I gave them the instruction as well.

MR SAMUELS: Sorry Mr Mqibi, what order did you give them?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: That Sibongele's house must be burnt including herself if she is inside the house she must be killed there.

MR SAMUELS: I see and did they carry out that order?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes they did that but after three days.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Thank you.   Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is his evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Mr Mqibi who was or is Mr Masibuko?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Would you please the question?

MS PATEL: Who is Mr Masibuko?  Why was he a target in other words?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: As everyone knows that ANC and IFP were fighting.  After three years everyone in the township knew exactly who was the member of the IFP and who was the member of the ANC so he was a member of IFP from 1990 up to 1993 when we burnt down his house.  We knew exactly that he was a member, not that we suspected that he was a member of the IFP.

MS PATEL: Is that the only reason that he was a target?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: That's not the only reason.  His actions, his words, things that he used to say to people.

MS PATEL: What were these actions, words and things that he used to say to people?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Everytime when there was a meeting or when hostel dwellers were going to attack in the townships, he was accompanying the hostel dwellers and he used to oppose everyone from the township and these were his actions and his words.  This is why his house was attacked.

MS PATEL: Right and in terms of Sibongele, you said that you received your information from Ben Mashinini that she was an IFP member.  Is that the only information that gave to you, regarding her?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes that's all.

MS PATEL: He didn't say perhaps that she was an informer or anything more?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: He said even the IFP used to go to her house and after the attacks IFP used to go and celebrate in her house.  We didn't attack people's houses because we suspected them but we attacked people's houses because we knew we had the knowledge that we've been there for a long time and we knew Sibongele.  We were not suspecting Sibongele, we knew, we were certain that she was an IFP member.

MS PATEL: Can I ask, were you involved in the process of disciplining the members who had raped Sibongele and her sister?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: No I wasn't a member of a disciplinary committee, I was a commander.  When these two boys were disciplined I wasn't in the township, I was in a meeting.  We never used to go together, Ben and myself.  He will be left behind and I'll go to a meeting or he'll go and I'll be left behind.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Masibuko, have you got the address where he was living?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: He was staying at number 4, Extension 2.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he still living there?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: They left, him and his family, I don't know where they've gone to.

ADV DE JAGER: But he left at Extension 4, number?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Number 4, Extension 2.

ADV DE JAGER: Which number?  You've mentioned a number I couldn't - oh, number 4, Extension 2?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And his house was destroyed?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Yes his house was destroyed to ashes.

ADV DE JAGER: You've got no idea what happened to him, whether he is still alive or what's the position?

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: What I'm going to say now is hearsay.  I don't have solid evidence.  What I heard is that he died.

ADV DE JAGER: The only reason I'm asking is because we must make a recommendation about victims.

MS PATEL: If I may for the record state that our investigative unit have tried without fail to locate this particular victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes mean without success?

MS PATEL: Yes of course.

MR SAMUELS: I close my case for this applicant.

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: Thank you very much.

ADV DE JAGER: He is asking for amnesty, he testified that he in fact ordered them to kill Sibongele in the first instance.  They didn't succeed in killing her.  He is not applying for any offence in that regard.

THANDUXOLO PATRICK MQIBI: I don't understand, if you may repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you gave an order for the killing of Sibongele.

MR SAMUELS: Sorry, I met that first point?

CHAIRPERSON: Your or your client gave the order for the killing of Sibongele.  In our minds that gives rise to ...

MR SAMUELS: Common purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Criminal liability.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, can I interrupt?  I assume you're coming to the point of should the applicant have applied for attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we're just checking whether he wants to or didn't.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, at this very late stage may I have leave to amend his request and ask that the crime of attempted murder be included, that is at a very late stage I appreciate.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think you're amending sort of what you told us here but there's no mention of ...(inaudible) or attempted murder in the application?

MR SAMUELS: Quite correct and again it's my ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's going to fall into that argument we've asked you to address?

MR SAMUELS: Numerous - yes I appreciate it.