Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen.  Mr Sithole, do you have any questions to pose to Mr Hadebe?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed and do so.

MR SITHOLE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Mr Hadebe, it's common knowledge that on the day in question, the 28th of September 1992, you left work as an angry man, is that correct?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.

MR SITHOLE: And is it correct further to say that when you left work, you actually said to Vuyi Jogazi that	 today is the day you are going to kill them?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I will not deny that because the way I was so angry, and I might have said this to this person and today I wouldn't be able to say exactly the words that I've said to the people when I left the place.  It they said I said so, I might have said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, they are talking about one person, Vuyi Jogazi, and you are talking more than one person.  Do you know Vuyi Jogazi?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I will say I know the name.  Maybe if I see him I will remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: But now how are you able to agree with Mr Sithole when he mentions that this is what you said to Vuyi Jogazi and you say yes, you cannot deny that, if you don't even know who Vuyi Jogazi is?  And you go on to say this is what you might have said to "them" and not even to one person but to "them".

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: As I've said I said things to them, it's because when I left my workplace there were many people standing there where we washed the booths and I had to pass through them.  I don't remember saying things, or whether I said things or I didn't since I was angry.  There that's the reason why I say I can't deny that I said things, that after they had pointed at me saying that I'm the one that's left, then I knew they were going to kill me, so I might have said things.  That is the reason why I said I don't know whether I said those words or not, but I will agree if they so I did because there might have been ...(indistinct) and they know exactly what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do not recall a Vuyi Jogazi, you don't know any person by that name?  You might be able to point him out if that person is identified to you, but you didn't know a person by the name of Vuyi Jogazi in your department?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, I didn't know the name so maybe if they point him to me I might be able to recognise him.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, I would ask Vuyi Jogazi to stand up so that he could see Vuyi Jogazi.
	Do you know the lady that's just stood up?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I know her, we were working with her.

MR SITHOLE: Do you remember seeing her on the 29th of September 1992 while you were walking out of the factory?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I don't remember seeing her.

MR SITHOLE: Do you remember if there were any words that you uttered to any member of the group that was standing while you were walking out of the factory?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I remember saying some words before I left and these were directed to an Induna by the name of Zita Myaba, and I said the following to him:  I'm not in a position to work with these people or work together with these people, therefore I would like to go out so that I can get some rest.  This was the Induna who was in charge of the whole firm.  This is the person I talked to.
	I found him outside as I was getting out.  This is the only person I talked to.  And as I explained before, I said to him I'm unable to work with these people saying that they are going to kill me.  That's how it happened when I left that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, may I interpose, Mr Sithole.
	I didn't get the first name of the Induna, what was his first name?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: The Induna is Zita Myaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.
	As you left the factory, you will agree with me that you were an angry man and you were angry with the Fawu members, is that correct?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: To say Fawu members, I would say no, I was angry with the ANC members.

MR SITHOLE: Now when you say you were angry with ANC members, were those ANC members working with you in the factory or you were angry with every ANC member who, every person who was a member of the ANC?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Anyone who was a member of ANC, I was angry at him or her on that day.

MR SITHOLE: Now if you're angry with any person who was an ANC member, how did you identify that the people who are going to board that bus are ANC members?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: This was known to the public or the community that the people who were ANC members and most of them, some will say so and some will wear clothes that you can easily identify them as ANC members, and they will separate themselves from the rest of other people and they would say so as well and they would actually tell that day, we don't want to mix with Inkatha people.  They would separate themselves and be on their own as ANC members.

MR SITHOLE: Now people who were boarding that but, I'm specifically talking about people who were boarding that but, how did you identify the fact that they were ANC members?

CHAIRPERSON: Because he has already stated in his evidence-in-chief, quite repeatedly, that only ANC members boarded the bus between Escort Bacon Factory and Ratanda Location and that they as IFP members only used taxis.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks for the clarification, Madam Chair.
	The question which I wanted to ask, Madam Chair, is the clarification between Fawu members and ANC members, because according to his evidence-in-chief he actually said that the people who were boarding the bus were Fawu members.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that impression, Mr Sithole, I thought he all along really referred to ANC members more than Fawu members.  You may put that question in order to seek clarity in respect of the difference between Fawu and ANC members, and whether he really had any conflict between, I mean the IFP had any conflict between Fawu members and itself.

MR SITHOLE: Can you say to us, the members who were on the bus, were they Fawu members?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Fawu and ANC is one thing to me, there is no difference there.

MR SITHOLE: Now the decision of attacking that bus, was it taken on Sunday by the committee that involved you and the chairperson and the other Indunas, or was it taken on Monday?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: The decision was taken on Sunday by the committee.

MR SITHOLE: Can you explain to this Committee as to what was the precise decision that was taken on Sunday?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: On Sunday, it was after Mgababa was killed, a meeting was called so that people would be informed that Mgababa had died and he's been killed by the ANC, and also to take a decision as to what we can use as to show the ANC that we were also human beings and they can't kill us that easily and then it was decided that this decision was going overlooked by the committee of Inkatha.  That is why we as a committee, we left the general meeting and we went and held this meeting together as a committee.
	We sat down and we decided as to what we should use in order to send this message to the ANC, and a decision was taken that we should attack them.  The on Monday the people who were chosen by the Indunas were called, that they should come to the meeting, this is the Monday meeting, and they were told to go and attack.

MR SITHOLE: Was a decision taken on Sunday to attack the bus which was used by Fawu members or ANC members or was a decision taken just to go and attack any bus?