Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1999-12-13

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness to the applicant you should put that in his original application he did say that he said they must kill them.  Page 3, end of paragraph 9(a).  He told them to go to the home and look for the gun and they brought it back
"I told them to go to the home and look for the gun and they brought it back to the meeting.  Then I said they must kill them."

MS PATEL: I stand corrected, thank you Honourable Chairperson.  If you would grant me a moment please.

MR LAX: Just while you're looking through your papers.
	You said in  your evidence-in-chief that you gave the instruction for him to be shot, but you've just said now that that's not so.  Please explain this for me.  Because it's clear from your subsequent evidence that you were just as surprised as everyone else when he was shot.  Whereas your lawyer specifically asked you -
"Did you give the order to shoot?"
... your answer was -
"Yes, I gave the order to shoot"

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: I did give the order for them to be killed, but I did not have a firearm.  The person who fired or who shot him did so before we had completed talking, but I had already issued the order that they should be killed.

MR LAX: Well you see you can't have it both ways, either you were busy talking and questioning this man and then you were shocked when somebody shot him, which is what you say in this statement at page 14 and which you've already confirmed in reply to the questions by Ms Patel, or you gave a deliberate order that the man must be shot.  That's what your lawyer said.  Your lawyer didn't say "Did you give the order to kill him?"  He said that as well but he asked
"Did you give the order for the man to be shot?"
... and your answer was -
"Yes"
You never gave any such order for him to be shot, isn't that so?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, because Mbuyiselwa was standing behind the deceased and I had already issued the order that they should be killed.  Because we also suffered similar attacks, that is why I said they should also be killed.  At that time when Mbuyiselwa just shot at him we were all shocked.

MR LAX: Well you see, when did you give this order because on  your version in this statement here, which you've confirmed already when Ms Patel read it to you, you were still asking the man "What shall we do with you now that you've admitted these things?"  Then the crowd say "No, no, no, you can't let him go, you can't let him go because if you let him go he's going to come back and kill us".  Not so?  Then the next thing, he's shot.  Before you can do anything, he's shot.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: When they returned with the firearm and the umuti, I issued the order that they should be killed.  Shortly thereafter they were assaulted and as they were still standing shortly after being assaulted, Mbuyiselwa shot at Oswald.

MR LAX: Well then why didn't you correct all these things in this statement here and say hang on, what's written on page 14 is a mistake, it goes quite differently to how it's written here?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: It happened as I've just related it to you.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a bit, let's clear up another point.  You see, at page 16 of your statement you say
"In court a witness, Simelane, said I had been to Mbuyisa's house to look for the firearm and given the instructions at the meeting for Oswald to be killed.  Both of which was not true."
Do you understand that?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Who is the witness, please repeat that.
CHAIRPERSON
"In court a witness, Simelane, said I had been to Mbuyisa's house to look for the firearm and given the instructions at the meeting for Oswald to be killed.  Both of which was not true."

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: ...(no English interpretation)  What is the person's first name?

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't matter what his name is, what you are saying in your statement which was made this year, that it is not true you went to Mbuyisa's house to look for the firearm and it is not true that you gave the instructions at the meeting for Oswald to be killed.  Do you understand?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, I understand.  I did not go to Mbuyisa's house, but I was at the meeting although I did not go the Mbuyisa home.  It was only the 10 people who went to the Mbuyisa house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is the one thing.  And the second part is
"I had not given the instructions at the meeting for Oswald to be killed."
That is what you say in your statement.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: I do not recall that statement, but I have explained everything as it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you say you don't recall this statement?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: No, I do not.  I do not know whether it's the one I made to the police.  I do not recall it.

MR LAX: This is a statement that you made to the Truth Commission and it was taken in approximately November this year.  It forms part of the bundle at page 13 to page 16.  I'm sure your lawyer would have taken you through it quite carefully.  Do you remember your lawyer taking you through a statement that you made to the Truth Commission?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, if I may show him a copy of the statement he may be able to recall.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may assist the applicant.
	It was in fact - I have a signed copy here that was signed after the copy that we have in the bundle.  It was signed on the 8th of December and you in fact signed in front of a Mr Govender.  Do you recall that?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Majola, do you speak English?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any difficulty in speaking English?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Not proper but I can try to speak.

CHAIRPERSON: Because this statement was made in English.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, yes, I can remember, it was on the 12th of November.  But now that the last sentence there for that Simelane.  See.  That's what I don't understand because I was at the meeting, I didn't went there to come, only 10 went there to his house, Sir, and search and come with the things at the meeting.

MR LAX: Mr Majola, you can continue talking in Zulu, it's quite alright.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Okay.

MR LAX: We don't want you to talk if you're not 100% sure of yourself.  So please you can talk and we can listen to the interpretation, that's okay.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes.

MR LAX: Now the important thing which the Chairperson is putting to you is you may not remember Simelane's statement however, and you are probably correct when you say you didn't go to the house, but the other important part of what is said about what Simelane said is that Simelane said you gave the order for them to be killed and the second part of your statement denies that you in fact gave that order.  And that's really the part that the Chairperson is asking you to explain.  Do you understand me now?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, I do.