Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

MR BERGER: And your evidence was that this sign which said "Getisu and Nana wanted dead or alive", that appeared in Boipatong, Sharpville and Sebokeng?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct sir.  It is as you say, at Sharpville, Boipatong, Sebokeng.  People staying in these respective places, I would say it is only the people of Boipatong who can tell you why they associated me with this man.  Maybe they know of anything that are common between me and him or any gang activities as they think.  I will say that they are wrong.

MR BERGER: You will also see on that photograph, the slogan Viva PAC, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it therefore correct that at the time of the attack, you were aware that there were PAC supporters in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I was aware.  What was happening at the time is all the small political organisations like PAC and others, were under the command of the ANC and if you were not in line with the ANC policies, you were to be necklaced with a tyre.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, I am not going to argue with you on that point, but you know very well that the ANC and the PAC have for many years been separate political organisations, don't you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I know that.  I also know that at times the ANC doesn't want the existence of other political organisations.

MR BERGER: Not only ANC and PAC, but also IFP supporters were living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: It is also correct, is it not, that you were involved in a shooting incident at your parents' house, you shot at your parents' house?

MR TSHABANGU: As you can see me shaking my head, or smiling, it doesn't mean that I want to laugh, but I am trying to respond to you.  With respect, what you are saying in this moment, it is not the first time for me to hear this.  I know that some people have said that I did shoot at our house.  How can I shoot with two rifles, a AK3 and a Macaroff, directing the shooting towards my home.
	I will say they were lying, that is not true.

MR BERGER: And the house was not burnt down - after you left, the house was demolished so that you could not return to the township, isn't that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know.  I last know that the house was burnt down.

MR BERGER: Do you recall a meeting three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, at the stadium where people were complaining about what was happening at KwaMadala and where people were asking to attack Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I remember the meetings where people requested or put this request, and I am not denying that.  Whether it was about two or three weeks or one, I can't be able to say yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: We were told that prior to the attack in Boipatong, just shortly before the attack, there were at least two meetings.  The first meeting was a meeting where the residents of KwaMadala hostel complained to the leadership about the attacks.  Do you recall that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember specifically the meeting where the people complained, I am not sure whether that was the first or the second meeting, but I remember people complaining in one of these meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: At the other meeting, we were told people were given instructions to be ready for an attack.  Do you remember that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: That meeting was on the 10th of June 1992, a week before the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: Must I comment?

MR BERGER: The meeting that you are referring to, is that the meeting that was held on the 10th of June?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I won't be able to mention a specific date.  My date reference is not that good because this happened about six years ago and I am trying by all means not to tell you lies.  I can't remember.

MR BERGER: On the 22nd of January of this year, you said the following under oath:  You said an instruction was given by leaders of the IFP living at the KwaMadala hostel on approximately the 10th and the 17th of June 1992, that Boipatong must be attacked.
	You can have a look at page 167 for that.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I have said it.

MR BERGER: Now that I have refreshed your memory, what instruction was given on the 10th of June 1992?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, in all fairness to the witness, I just want to refer to the word "ongeveer", which means more or less the 10th.  So it is not as it is, exactly on the 10th.

MR BERGER: I will put the question again, do you confirm that on approximately the 10th of June 1992, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: May you please repeat the question sir.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, do you confirm what you stated under oath, that on approximately the 10th of June 1992 an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who gave that instruction?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't remember exactly who was speaking at the meeting, it is anyone between Mkhize and Qonqo.

MR BERGER: Why was the attack not carried out immediately and why did you wait for a week before carrying out the attack, approximately a week before carrying out the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know.   It should be understood that I wasn't involved in the planning and I wasn't part of the leadership.  There were things which I didn't know and I don't know why it took a week before it could happen.

MR BERGER: Am I correct then if I understand your evidence to be as follows:  Some time before the 10th, you don't know precisely when, the residents of KwaMadala complained to the leaders of KwaMadala that they wished to attack the residents of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I personally am saying that residents of KwaMadala hostel complained about the killings directed to them and their relatives in one of those two meetings.

MR BERGER: You see, we have heard from Mr Khanyile that at this first meeting, when the residents wanted to attack, the leader said leave it with us, we will think about it.
	Do you confirm that?

MR TSHABANGU: What was said by Khanyile, it is what he said.  I won't like to follow what he said or agree, not specifically what Khanyile said, but I will say what I know because if I were to do it in that fashion, I will end up telling the Committee and the community of Boipatong a lie.
	I will say what I remember, the way I remember it, therefore I can't confirm or deny what Khanyile said.

MR BERGER: What you can confirm is that thereafter the leaders came, round about the 10th of June and said we are now going to attack Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are referring to the 17th, yes.

MR BERGER: No Mr Tshabangu, you have already agreed that on the 10th an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked and you told the Committee you did not know why it took from the 10th to the 17th before the attack was launched.  Do you stand by that?

MR TSHABANGU: I am standing in these words.  I am saying I don't know the exact date, whether it was the 10th or any other date, that is my words.
	Further, that in one of the two meetings this was mentioned, but things occurred on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see that it is five o'clock.  I am not finished with this point.  I don't know if you would want to adjourn?
	Mr Tshabangu, in your application, you say that approximately a week apart, approximately a week before the attack, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked.  Do you now dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: He is just referring specifically to the aspect of his affidavit where he says that.

MR BERGER: I am referring to paragraph 11(b) on page 167 Chairperson.