Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : One further aspect I'd like to clarify, asregards their disrupting the various protest actions, is it yourevidence that they didn't actually do anything their mere presencecaused people to disband and to run away?

ANSWER: No you see what happened at the Kroonstad taxirank is that many people were intimidated and advised to go andshop in town and that they should not heed people telling themnot to go and buy, shop in town.   Pick 'n Pay, the manager ofPick 'n Pay, it was known that Diwiti would go to him during theseconsumer boycotts, he would go and assure the managing directorthat people would come and shop there.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes but my question is that they did not attackthe people but the people were so afraid of them that they ranaway of their own accord when they saw the gang?

ANSWER: No they also attacked people, if the people didn'twant to listen they would attack.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes but I am talking about the protest actionsand the boycotts.

ANSWER: No they did not attack people there.

<UNKNOWN>: : As soon as people saw the gang coming thenthe people simply fled.

ANSWER: Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMBER OF COMMITTEE
FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMBER OF COMMITTEE

<UNKNOWN>: : You said just now that the Three Million gangcame into existence from about 1986/87.   Were they constantlyactive until 1990/91 or was there a period when they were dormant?

ANSWER: Yes between 86/87 and 90 there was a period ofquietness, of calm.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were they then in prison during that period,the leaders?

ANSWER: Yes I think Diwiti was in prison during thoseyears.
QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Bloem I have just two questions for you.  Is the Three Million gang still in existence?

ANSWER: No they do not exist anymore.

<UNKNOWN>: : Have they become extinct?

ANSWER: After the leader, Diwiti's, death the gang disbandedthey were no longer in existence.

<UNKNOWN>: : Petrus, your relative has given testimony beforeus that after the death of Diwiti there was a noticeable changein your community in that whereas the violence was the order ofthe day during his lifetime, after his death peace and tranquillitydescended on the community.   Would you like to comment on that?

ANSWER: Certainly Chairperson, I'm going to illustratewhat joy there was in the community of Maokeng the day when Diwitiwas shot dead.    It was worse than when Nelson Mandela was freed.  Up until today it is quiet and peaceful in Kroonstad.   Schoolswere disrupted, businesses were disrupted, taxis were disruptedand so were churches, nobody could do anything in Kroonstad whenthe Three Million gang were still in existence.   There is peaceand nobody can say today that I am lying, there is peace in Kroonstad.

<UNKNOWN>: : Senator if immediately after Diwiti's deathsuch peace reigned in this community, would you agree that therewas no need for further killings of other members of the ThreeMillion gang?

ANSWER: Chairperson I would like to answer this as follows.  We have never approved of murder.   I don't think that it wasnecessary to take anybody's life before Diwiti or after Diwiti.  I cannot agree that anybody needed to be killed.

<UNKNOWN>: : We have actually listened to evidence by someof the applicants to the effect that they had to protect the communityand in protecting the community certain killings had to be committed.  Your evidence is that there was no need for further killingafter the death of Diwiti, do I understand you properly?

ANSWER: Yes I agree completely that, I just want to reiteratethat I will never agree with the killing of anybody, whether itwas before Diwiti's death or after Diwiti's death, I don't thinkanybody can condone murder.

<UNKNOWN>: : You have also testified that there was a meetingbetween yourself and Mr Msibi, an official of the IFP?   Wheredid Mr Msibi live at the time of your meeting, where was he staying?

ANSWER: Yes he came from Welkom, actually he phoned MrLefafa to make the arrangement, the appointment, and Mr Lefafaphoned me and Reverend Gozongo and told us that this person wantedto have a meeting with us about the Three Million gang and thoseof his members, that's what he said.  He went back to Welkom.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you not take the opportunity to discusswith him the involvement of his party with the Three Million gang?

ANSWER: I assume that Mr Msibi was a senior officialin the IFP and the meeting which we held was enough to talk abouthis members, he said that they were members of his organisationand I assumed that that was sufficient.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...to the Three Million gang?

ANSWER: The Three Million gang started out very smallbut it eventually grew until it had about 45 or 50 members.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were these members recruited within the ranksof the ANC?

ANSWER: You see the situation which people found themselvesin Trobo was such that if you were not a part of the Three Milliongang your life was in danger.   Many of these young people hadno clue what it was all about but their parents lived there andthey had to become part of the Three Million.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
MR MOTSEPE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE
 Thank you Mr Chairman, this then brings me to the end of theevidence that I will lead on behalf of all the applicants I amappearing on behalf and I just wish to point out that there isanother application of Boteta(?) whom I would have appeared forbut my instructions is that that application should be removedfrom the role and I request that that is application No A I amtold and I thus request that it be recorded as such.

CHAIRPERSON: : What is the position in that regard, is theapplication being withdrawn altogether or just removed from therole?

MR MOTSEPE: Mr Chairman I think it should be removedfrom the role.

CHAIRPERSON: : Very well, the application of Boteta will beremoved from the role.

MR MOTSEPE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman on thepart of the amnesty I will call the next of kin to George Ramasimongto the witness stand.

CHAIRPERSON: : What is the name of the witness?

MR MOTSEPE: Florence Mamorena Taje.
FLORENCE MAMORENA TAJE (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR (?)

<UNKNOWN>: : Mamorena are you a sister to George Ramasimongwho was known as Diwiti?

ANSWER: Yes it's like that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Between you and Diwiti who is the oldest?

ANSWER: I am the oldest.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you please speak louder?   Mrs Taje Iwould ask you to tell this Committee whether you are any memberof any political organisation?

ANSWER: I am an ANC member.  [Interjections from spectators].

<UNKNOWN>: : Please give this lady a chance to speak, don'tdisturb her please because we want everyone to be afforded anopportunity to tell her story here.   If you have a problem withthat we will be forced to conduct this business maybe in secrecy.  We don't want you to be absent when she testifies but pleasedon't cause the Committee to conduct the hearings in your absencebecause this will disadvantage you.   You are also spoiling yourchances of hearing what she says.  (Discussion as to positioningof microphones).   Mrs Taje you have just told us that you arean ANC member?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : When did you become an ANC member?

ANSWER: I became a member in 1985 but I received thecard, that is the ANC card in 1990, it was about in June month.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you occupying any position in this organisation?

ANSWER: Yes I was a secretary in the Women's League thatis at Regional level.

<UNKNOWN>: : Besides being a secretary in the ANC or theWomen's League was there any other thing or did you have any otherfunction in the ANC?

ANSWER: I was also a committee member of the MDCC hereat Maokeng and this is the organisation that help us to make thecouncil resign.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you in the organisation which was againstthe town council at the time?

ANSWER: Yes sir.