Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: I think perhaps couldn't you perhaps give us the salient points because that is a bit long?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes I can give that to you.
"Whatever nature, by whoever, to either directly or indirectly intimidate or interfere with any of the witnesses, will unhesitantly be dealt with the fullest vigour the law can command.  In various quarters it has been plain that Mrs Mandela has been unjustly victimised by being refused an opportunity to defend herself.  During a recent visit to the United States she has been reported in the press as having said, she would welcome charge in the murder of Stompie so that she could appear in court to defend herself.  My decision to prosecute Mrs Mandela was taken not in response to these various claims and statements whether they are correct or not, but because of my understanding of the facts, law of the land and my duty as the Attorney General to uphold and apply the law to all alike. Earlier this morning...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not yet enough?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I think the point has been made, okay I will then stop there Mr Chair, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Can I now direct Chairperson my questions to Senior Superintendent Moodley.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR SEMENYA: I do not know whether this has come to your attention but according to certain of the notes here, the rumours were doing rounds within the Security Force in Soweto that the reason Stompie was killed was because he had discovered that Richardson was an informer.  Did you come across this rumour?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No that particular rumour no.

MR SEMENYA: Somewhere in this documentation you seem to convey that you on one occasion in London spoke to Katiza Cebekhulu in Zulu.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's correct yes.  What does he say to you when you speak to him in Zulu.  I spoke to him very generally when I spoke to him in Zulu about his being in London and wouldn't he like to come home.

MR SEMENYA: What was his response?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: It was that he'd like to come home but the lady wouldn't allow it because she's busy with a book.

MR SEMENYA: The lady wouldn't allow him because she's busy with a book.  This refers now to Emma Nicholson?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Emma Nicholson and he'd like to come home.  And at that stage I think he's given me his phone number to phone his granny which I did when I got back.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter.

MR UNTERHALTER: David Unterhalter for the Sono and Shabalala families.  Mr Moodley perhaps I can begin with you.  Can I just understand the position with the docket in the Sono case.  Did you hand that docket to Mr Moodley?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Sorry I think I am Mr Moodley.

MR UNTERHALTER: I beg your pardon.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: The docket was signed for by Henk Hesslinga at Col Dempsey's office is that clear?

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: And then the docket was brought to the team, that's been our team of five people at the time that were appointed to do the investigations.  So far as I can recollect I took it to the Attorney General's office to have a decision made on it.

MR UNTERHALTER: To whom did you take it at the Attorney General's office and when?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I could not give you the exact dates but after the investigations were complete.

MR UNTERHALTER: When would that be approximately?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: From what I've got here, that would be somewhere after the 13th of October 1995.

MR UNTERHALTER: To whom did you give the docket?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I took it to Mr Atwell's office at the time.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see and have you made any enquiries as to its whereabouts since then?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I did on two occasions make enquiries.  They said they were going to look for it and they couldn't find it.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see.  Mr Dempsey perhaps I could then ask you one or two questions.  You took a statement from Mr Siakamela.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct Sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: That quiz in very brief terms, what was the contents of that statement and did it support what Mr Sono had to say?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Mr Chair I have to depend on my memory now. As far as I can remember in all respects it supported Mr Sono's version.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you still have any documentation relating to this case.  I see you've reconstructed events in this matter and you're sitting there with some documentation, what is that documentation?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I have documentation which was under correspondence which I reported to I think head office that the person who has notes on this is the advocate for the prosecution, Advocate van Vuuren.  I think on one or perhaps even two occasions where he liaised, consulted with Mr Siakamela and there were no problems in his statement either.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you have any statements of witnesses in the documents that still remain in your possession?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I have two typed versions of Mr Sono's statement and of Mr Shabalala's statement.  They are typed versions from the original.  They had been signed and I found these amongst the documentation at the Attorney General's office. And it is available.

MR UNTERHALTER: And anything from Mr Siakamela, do you have anything from your interview with him?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: No, as I've already stated, those notes are already with Mr van Vuuren.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I ask you this, having taken statements or received statements from Mr Sono and Mr Siakamela you record that you made an effort to contact Mrs Mandela on the telephone and then went to see her.  Why did you make no further efforts to see a person implicated and at least the abduction of these two youths. Were you a faint-hearted policeman?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Sir I don't know, I don't think I'm a scared policeman, I work in Soweto, no but what I would like to say to you is that I made attempts to speak to Mrs Mandela.  The only person who could possibly have helped us in the case was Michael Siakamela and after a lot of trouble, two or three months later I traced Mr Michael Siakamela and I obtained a statement from him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mrs Mandela was not a person hard to find, she was a person in public life and well known to the police, why did you find it so difficult to get in touch with her over a period of four five years?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: We are not talking about three or four or five years.  After the case had been investigated cases had been investigated and submitted to the Attorney General for his decision, I went to her attorney Mr Ayob and informed him that we wish to have to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela. He informed me that Mrs Mandela had availed herself of her right to silence.  I asked him to put it to me in writing and to the present I haven't obtained that in writing yet.

MR UNTERHALTER: So that was the stance of Mrs Mandela that she was taking her right to silence.  Is that correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes that is so.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now might I then just put something to you in respect of the Stompie Trial.  Mr Sono my client says he was not unwilling to testify in the trial but that he was ultimately not called by the prosecution. Are you in any position to doubt that statement?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes I do doubt that very strongly and this was not said to me alone, but it was also said in the presence of the advocate and to the advocate that he was not prepared to testify as he feared for his life, both he and Mr Shabalala said that, and Michael also didn't want to say that.

MR UNTERHALTER: The position is that ultimately those witnessed could have been called, they weren't called and the only reason they weren't called was that it was a decision by the Attorney General, not by my client Mr Sono.