Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

MR LAX: Well you see, your evidence earlier was that you went on that operation, it was dark, you couldn't see where you were going it was raining and you came back, that's why it was postponed, that was your earlier evidence.  So you did actually start it but you aborted it?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I think there's a problem here.  What I said we never got - went there - only the commanders went there and they gave us a report that no we're not going to go there anymore, the operation is postponed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you tell us about "it was so dark, we couldn't see where we were"?

MR LAX: See, let me just help you, let me just help you so you don't get confused here.  You were asked "you know that place where that operation was?"  You said "No, it was so dark, it was raining, we couldn't see the place, that's why we postponed the matter.  That was your earlier evidence.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: That's what we got from our commander.  I say it through my own mouth that that's what our commanders told us that we cannot go on that operation because they cannot find the target we must postpone the operation because of weather conditions, it was raining.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: But you told us the target was in a place like a school.  It wasn't available and you said "we had to go back to our place."?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: The target was postponed, I never left, I then did not leave King William's Town, I was there at King William's Town.

MR LAX: You see the issue is the operation wasn't postponed because you couldn't find the target, the operation was postponed because the SADF didn't arrive at the target area and therefore weren't available.  You knew the target area - the people you were to attack weren't there because it was raining, that's why it was postponed so what you're saying just doesn't make sense.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think what is being said by Mr Mlambisa, what he's trying to say but he's putting the other way around that we couldn't find the target not to say that because it was raining the South African Defence Force postponed the activity because it was raining, now he's putting other way round that we didn't find the target.

CHAIRPERSON: So there's a big difference between we couldn't find it and the people weren't there and when he gave his evidence in chief and you led him, as you well know I think, he said the target was not available, they weren't there because it was raining.  Started off telling us that the only operation that was postponed was postponed because of the weather.  Do you remember that evidence and what he is now saying is our leaders came back and said they couldn't find target.  A very different version - that's what my friend's asking about.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman I would only be able to explain the two, that when I was leading him he said that it was raining but when it comes to the question that he came, he also explained that, the reason why it was postponed that's what he was told by his commanders when they went there.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say when they went there, perhaps he should explain rather than you endeavour to give evidence on his behalf.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: The other issue I wanted to raise arising out of this bit of evidence was that Mr Xundu told us that he wasn't involved in that operation in any way whatsoever.  That was his evidence and you've told us that he went with, Ncoba and checked out the place?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I think Comrade Xundu has explained well yesterday, he was asked about his handwriting that appeared on that report and he said he does remember and he explained there was an operation that was postponed not the one of the Golf Club incident.

MR LAX: You're missing my question, you told us he wasn't involved in that operation at all, that was his evidence to us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I think it will be different in the application that maybe I'm subject to speculation, that he was not involved because they never, the operation was never executed, that's how I interpreted it, because it was never executed so they were never involved in it, they never executed the operation, that's how I interpret it when he says he was never involved.

MR LAX: Mr Mbandazayo, it doesn't matter, the record will speak for itself but I'm just putting it to him, it's fine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I agree with you...[intervention]

MR LAX: Let's just leave, let's just leave it, I'm not going to pursue the matter now.  We'll get bogged down in some gymnastics for nothing.
ADV. SANDI: Can you give us the names of the person or people who told you that the operation could not be carried out it had to be postponed because of the weather, who was that person?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Comrade Lester and Tumeselo Ncoba.
ADV. SANDI: Only Ncoba not anyone else?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: And Thembelani Xundu.
ADV. SANDI: Can you assist me here, this operation was supposed to take place in Tembasa?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No about the place, that's the place where the SADF was going to be assembling.

MR LAX: You see, there's just one problem here, initially I thought you said this operation was going to happen in King William's Town because where you would expect to find the SADF.  Tembasa was part of the Ciskei, you wouldn't find the SADF in the Ciskei, so please clarify this for us?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Well because I was here and anybody at Tembasa, the time I was here at Tembasa, there were SADF patrols at Tembasa where we're staying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think to add more, I think Mr Xundu indicated that it was a time of Brigadier Gozo and they were re-enforcements so the South African Defence Force was all over, was also involved and also in Ciskei in the former Ciskei.

MR LAX: But that explains it to us very nicely for us, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman that is all on the side of the applicants at this stage Mr Chairman as we indicated yesterday that we're still going to arrange for the evidence of the leaders with Mr Prior to give evidence before the Committee regarding all 0this.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we deal with the, I don't know, depending, subject to what the Committee says, with the application the technical aspect of the application because I've handed up a photocopy of the letter sent on 15th September '97.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we've heard the application and there has been nothing to suggest further we should not proceed with it because I do not think we should make a final decision until you
have had an opportunity yourself of satisfying yourself what is in the papers in Cape Town and I think that is what you've agreed isn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This letter confirms what you have told us, that is that you specifically wrote and drew the TRC's attention to the fact that Mr Thobela Mlambisa was applying for the Golf Club incident and the St James incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may we take before I proceed, may we take the adjournment now and reconvene earlier, it's nearly twenty to one, we can reconvene at half past one.  I'd like to confer with some of the victim's and to find out precisely what, who wants to, if anyone wants to give evidence, the ambit of that evidence and explain to them what the procedure is.

CHAIRPERSON: We are as I understand it well within our time limit.

MR PRIOR: Well within our time limit?

CHAIRPERSON: And we will adjourn now but if you feel you need longer time than half past one, let us know and by all means consult fully with everybody and decide what is to take place, there's no need to rush things.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I was going to request that we start at two exactly Mr Chairman.