Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga do you perhaps, it might help, do you have any information or can it be recalled the date on which Dean Farisani was arrested?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson Dr Farisani is not certain about the date but it is his evidence that by the 11th and 12th of November he was already arrested by the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so by the 11th and 12th he says that he was already arrested.

MS MTANGA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I was just trying to check my notes because this is one point that we were able to get clarity from Mr Ramaligela, he was able to remember that I think when Dr Farisani was arrested it was before Mr Ramushwana assumed command, and he placed Mr Ramushwana's assumption of command on the 10th of November 1981.  So Dr Farisani was arrested before the 10th of November, it was immediately before....

INTERPRETER: Speaker's mike is not on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Whilst I am talking don't punch in because it switches off my microphone.  So at least we now have an approximate of when Dr Farisani was arrested.  He was arrested on the 9th or on the 10th but before Mr Ramushwana took over from Mr Sofuwa, which we are able to establish from Mr Ramaligela to have been on the 10th of November 1981.

MS MTANGA: Yes it is so Chairperson, I thank you for your assistance.
	Mr Managa I had also asked you a question regarding the whereabouts of Mr Mahumela on the 12th and the 14th of November 1981, are you able to tell this Committee?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't recall with regard to those dates as to his whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after his arrest that he was unconscious?

MS MTANGA: Till after his arrest, yes.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't recall.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Just a few questions Mr Chairman.
	Mr Managa the two people that you are talking about which you had information about that they visited Dean Farisani's house, you only mentioned the two people, which two people were they?  Even if you don't know their names can you tell us a bit more about them and how are they relevant to the arrest of Mr Farisani?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well these two people, freedom fighters, I can remember one person was Mmbegene Kone, he's one of the freedom fighters.  There were two.

MR MEYER: What information did you have with regard to the vehicle of the Lutheran Church?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: With regard to the vehicle it was during the time when - I can remember that it was during the - mentioned that these people had to be conveyed and how after the bombing of the police station, that there had to be transport available and there was transport available after the bombing of the police station, the Lutheran Church van and a kombi.  That is the information that we were able to extract on our investigation.

MR MEYER: What was Dean Farisani's position in the Church?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Mr Dean was the elderly person in the Church with regard to the pastors, namely Poswana and Posiwa.

MR MEYER: At the stage when you were investigating the bombing of the police station were you looking only for the people who were physically involved in the attack, in other words the people who fired the firearms and rockets and what have you, or were you also looking for anyone who might be involved in the attack in some or other way?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well we were looking for people who were also able to assist who had meetings in the planning and also with regard to the conveying of these people leading to the police station bombing.  That was the investigation that we were looking for.

MR MEYER: Is it correct, for instance, that Reverend Posiwa was later convicted on a charge of aiding and harbouring terrorists and sentenced for that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Sorry could you just repeat the previous question, could you just repeat.

MR MEYER: Is it correct that Reverend Posiwa was later on found guilty on a charge of aiding and harbouring terrorists and received a prison sentence for that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: If I still remember the Court found him guilty for the aforementioned.  I can't remember again exactly how the Court presented - I didn't make a follow-up as to how it went on.  I think he was not charged on that, this Mr Poswana.  That's how I am able to reflect on that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's 11H00, we'll take the short tea adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes thank you Chairperson.  I just have one or two issues that I would need to be clarified on by Mr Managa.
	Mr Managa with regard to the torture of Mr Farisani, do you remember whether in any of the interrogating sessions that you had with Mr Farisani whether there was any blood that came out of any part of his body?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember blood coming from any part of his body.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Before the Human Rights Violations Committee Mr Farisani testified that pursuant to him being assaulted by you he actually bled from his mouth.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember, I don't remember blood coming.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying you never saw blood coming from his mouth?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I am saying that.  I never saw blood.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  And that he suffered visible injuries one of which was a swollen eye which made him not to be able to see, it was visibly swollen as a result of your assault, do you recall that incident?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well that could have happened as we were beating him using our fists.  I can't really dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there a time or an occasion when you transported him to a place called Park Station where you applied electrical shocks, I think on his ear-lobes?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Chairperson I am not sure if you are referring to Park Station, Johannesburg Park Station or where?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, it's not indicated whether that Park Station is the Park Station in Johannesburg or a Park Station around Venda, but do you recall taking him to a place called Park Station?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he ever taken outside Venda?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I never conveyed him any place other than Venda.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  And with regard to Mr Posiwa his statement, or the evidence led before the Human Rights Violations Committee was that there were approximately eight policemen who took part in the initial interrogation, and that one of those policemen was yourself.  Do you recall that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well they could have counted us up to eight.  I can't dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now this is when he was initially arrested.  Don't you remember how many of you were there when he was initially arrested?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No Chairperson I cannot recall as to how many we were.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it something that you would do ordinarily in having to have people outside the central investigating team accompanying you when you would go to effect an arrest of a suspect?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well we would go out and arrest them if it was necessary.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Would you involve members outside of the investigating team?  That's my question.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember, but what I can only remember is during the time when Ravele was arrested - when we had invited the Mobile Unit.  I can only remember the incident in which Mr Ravele was involved.  But usually we would use our normal staff, Security staff.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It was also his evidence that when he requested to be given medical assistance you personally refused to accede to his request.  Do you remember that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I cannot remember disputing or saying that they could not be taken to the doctor.