Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes, I did not hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What made you to stop firing at the crowd after you had fired eight shots?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He shouted that we should cease fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that, is that Mr Kruser?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  At the time when the cease fire order was issued, can you still recall what exactly the crowd was doing?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well there was pandemonium there you know, some of them were fleeing and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understood you to say that your main target was this man with an AK47.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you direct your shots at this man?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Sorry, I didn't get that?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you direct your fire at this man?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he in the crowd at the time?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He was still in the crowd.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you Mr Zuma.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Zuma, how soon after you had observed the man with an AK47 which was being pointed in your direction, did you hear the burst of gunfire coming from where this man was?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes and at the time it was just a question of seconds.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I know it's very difficult to come with these estimations.  Are you able to estimate whether it was a split second or within two seconds?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I think it was a split second.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you able to see whether there were any other automatic weapons which were being held by the members of the marchers at about the same time when you observed this particular person who was in possession of an AK47?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I did not think because I was concentrating on that man but I knew that it was the same crowd that I had seen while I was at Jabu's Bakery.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Just one small issue Mr Zuma, from the questions put to you, the estimate of the distance at which the bulk of the crowd where this man that you say had an AK47 was, was approximately 40 metres or so away from you when you first saw him?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now was that crowd moving towards you slowly or was it stationery or what?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: They were moving towards us.

MR LAX: Now at the time you fired the warning shots approximately how far were they from you at that stage?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: At that stage they were around the corner of - in the corner of King George and De Villiers but some of them had already entered.

MR LAX: What I'm trying to understand is at a certain point they were about 40 metres from you then they started moving closer towards you.  How much ground had they covered by the time you fired the warning shots?  You said they started rushing, so I'm just trying to get a sense of how fast they were moving towards you.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well it was very fast it is difficult for me to measure the distance because immediately then there was pandemonium broke because when they were still at the corner as they appeared there as we appeared also from Shell House, there was fire, so we reacted with the warning shots and then the fire started and it was a matter of seconds so I - it really becomes difficult I don't want to come and distort facts before this Commission deliberately, but all I'm trying to say it becomes difficult to put things as if one had enough time to look at them.

MR LAX: So you can't estimate those distances it happened far too quickly, do I understand you correctly?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Zuma, thank you very much.  You may step down.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Thank you my lord.
WITNESS EXCUSED