Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR BERGER: I am reading from the affidavit of Mr Victor Mthembu, paragraph 12.  He says that Dlamini first opened this meeting, this was on the Sunday, it would be the 14th of March 1992, 14th of June, I beg your pardon, 1992.  He said there was a meeting because our people were dying.
	They were being killed by the ANC people and Umkhonto weSizwe, do you remember that meeting?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Dlamini said this problem must be reported to Buthelezi.  He said the people had no transport to go to work, as all their taxi's were being hijacked by the ANC, and the people could not go to work.  This Buthelezi that is being referred to, is Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is reference to the Chief Minister, Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

MR BERGER: You were at the hostel on Sunday the 14th of June 1992, were you not?

MR MKHIZE: My problem is that I have lost count of the date, and therefore I cannot dispute some of these dates, but yes, I do not remember quite well.

MR BERGER: I am talking about three days before the massacre, when you were preparing for war.

MR MKHIZE: Was Dlamini present in that meeting?  No, I do not agree with that.

MR BERGER: When did you take a decision that Boipatong would be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: On that very same day, that is on the 17th.

MR BERGER: You did not take the decision before the 17th?

MR MKHIZE: There is one other meeting that we held, but we did not decide as to which date we should, on which date we should launch the attack.

MR BERGER: When did you decide that you were going to attack Boipatong?  Not of the date, but when did you decide that you would go ahead with an attack?

MR MKHIZE: It was on the 17th.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that on the 17th you took the, you decided that you must now proceed to Boipatong and launch the attack.  What Counsel wants to find out, when was the decision in principle to attack Boipatong, taken?  Is that your question?

MR BERGER: Indeed yes.

MR MKHIZE: Even though I cannot quite remember very well, but I think it must have been the following day after the last meeting.

MR BERGER: How many days before the attack, did you take a decision in principle that Boipatong would be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite well really, I cannot remember how many days lapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: The question to you is, on the 17th you went to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Before the 17th, was there already a decision that Boipatong was going to be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: The legal representative wants to know when the decision to launch the attack, was taken.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, I cannot remember the day of the week, or how many days lapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was it a week or two weeks?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was one week.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have the answer?  Yes.

MR BERGER: You see a lot of your colleagues talk about a meeting on the 10th of June, do you remember that meeting, a week before the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember very well, but I know there was not only one meeting held.

MR BERGER: There was a meeting round about the 3rd of June 1992, there would have been a meeting on the 10th of June 1992, there would have been a meeting on the Sunday, the 14th of June 1992 and then there would have been the meeting in the stadium, on the 17th of June 1992.  Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would concur with that.

MR BERGER: And you had about a week or six days, in which to prepare for the attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: If Themba Khoza came to the stadium, I beg your pardon, to kwaMadala hostel on Sunday the 14th of March 1992, as Mr Victor Mthembu says he did, you would then have had an opportunity to speak with him, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: The month that my learned colleague referred to was March.

MR BERGER: I am sorry, I don't know why I am obsessed with March.  June, Sunday the 14th of June 1992.  Let me try and refresh your memory about what happened at that meeting.
	After Mr Dlamini had addressed the meeting, Mr Themba Khoza says Mr Victor Mthembu, also addressed the meeting.  Themba Khoza he says, was angry at the killing of his people and he says if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them.
	Do you remember that meeting now?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not.  I do not recall a meeting where Mr Themba Khoza indicted to us that we should fight back.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga in his affidavit, page 19, paragraph 5, talks about the meeting approximately two weeks before the massacre, we are talking about roundabout the 3rd of June 1992.  He says that this meeting was in a big hall, lots of people there and he says Themba Khoza was at that meeting.  He also says that there were some policemen at the meeting, and he mentions Mr Peens and a certain Dani.  Is he correct?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Did you know Mr Peens, do you know Mr Peens?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I don't know him, except maybe I just know him by sight because I know several policemen.

MR BERGER: He says that Themba Khoza and Mr Peens, this is Mr Pedro Peens, chaired the meeting, and that Mtwana Zulu, that would be Prince Vanana Zulu, was also there.
	He says that Darkie, a leader of the IFP, was also there.  You know Darkie, don't you?

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Darkie Qunchu, if that is the one, I know him.

MR BERGER: Kachene, an Induna, do you know him?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know Kachene.

MR BERGER: Was he an Induna?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Was he a member of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: What is his surname?

MR MKHIZE: It is Ndlovu.  Ndlovu is his surname and Kachene is his praise name.

MR BERGER: And what other name does he go by, his first name?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know his real name, we used to call him Kachene, that is all.

MR BERGER: Is he one of your co-applicants?

MR MKHIZE: No, he is not part of the applicants.

MR BERGER: Was he accused in the criminal trial?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that at this meeting, the hostel residents were told that people were needed to go to Boipatong to kill the dogs.

MR MKHIZE: I don't want to involve myself in this Nosenga issue, really.

MR BERGER: Well you see Mr Mkhize, I am putting this to you so that you will have an opportunity to comment on what Mr Nosenga says.  If you don't want to comment, that is also fine, just say I don't want to comment and I will move on.
	Also at this meeting, Themba Khoza said that a certain insect should be killed and he was referring to the Boipatong residents?  Do you have any comment?

MR MKHIZE: No.  There is nothing I know to that effect.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that Peens also spoke at that meeting, he spoke in Afrikaans, it was translated for the residents.  Do you remember a policeman speaking in Afrikaans at that meeting?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember a single police present at the meeting.  I do not recall any policeman present at our meetings at kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: I won't go through all the details, but save to say that Mr Nosenga talks about the police saying, or Mr Peens saying that the police would supply you with caspirs, you the residents with caspirs and weapons and that the police would assist you during an attack?
	Are you saying that that never happened?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: What are you saying?

MR MKHIZE: I say I know nothing about that.

MR BERGER: Well you were there at that meeting, two weeks before the attack and you say Themba Khoza wasn't there and Pedro Peens wasn't there either, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: In your, what preparations did you make for the attack in the six days that you had at your disposal, what did you do to prepare the attack?