Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

J A MKHWANAZI: When I arrived here the structures of the ANC were outside the country.  I came already having instructions to form some structures of the MK that were going to exist within the country.  So I got the instruction, when I arrived in the country I already had instructions.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave you these instructions?

J A MKHWANAZI: I had already pointed out that I was directly linked with the then Chief of Staff, Chris Hani.

MS VAN DER WALT: So he gave you the instruction to come and train people here?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What other instructions did you receive from him?

J A MKHWANAZI: That I should act, or I should use my own discretion in order to try and curb the violence because during the time he was still in Zambia, so he was not within the country.  He gave me quite wide powers to actually act as I deemed fit.

MS VAN DER WALT: So he did not give you instructions to establish self-defence units?

J A MKHWANAZI: If you do follow the news bulletins you would appreciate the fact that there was sporadic outbreaks of violence in a lot of townships and the ANC issued a statement that people should take in their your hands or their own initiative in order to try and protect themselves, so in a lot of townships self-defence units were established.

MS VAN DER WALT: All that I asked Sir, was that Chris Hani did not give you the instruction to establish self-defence units.

J A MKHWANAZI: He did give me the powers to do anything necessary in order to defend the members of the community because he was based in Zambia and I was the one who was witnessing what was going on within the country, and that is why I established self-defence units.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find it necessary to do so, in  your opinion?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is so.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did Chris Hani return to the Republic of South Africa?

J A MKHWANAZI: I'm not sure because I was operating underground at that time.

MS VAN DER WALT: No, Sir, your evidence is that you reported back to Chris Hani with regards to what happened to the self-defence units.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he when you reported back?

J A MKHWANAZI: I only reported back to him once when we were in Transkei, Umtata.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the impression that you tried to create before this Committee that you reported back to him is actually wrong, you only went back to him once?

ADV POTGIETER: Objection Mr Chairman, this witness has never sought to create that impression.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that Miss van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: If you look at the evidence, he said that he had to report back to Chris Hani.  I mean to go to him once over a period of three years, according to his testimony, where violence was in the country and according to Mr Mndebele's testimony, if I got the wrong impression, my impression was that he was responsible for what was going on in the self-defence units and had to report back.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot remember the specific words that were used.  Report back and accountability is two different words but you will have to help me remember.  I cannot remember what words were used.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Afrikaans was translated to: "to account".

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Bosman tells me that the translation that she received was that he was accountable to Chris Hani.

MS VAN DER WALT: I will leave it there and I will continue with the next point.
	Sir, you say that you went to Chris Hani, where exactly when you reported back to him?

J A MKHWANAZI: I had already said the then Transkei in Umtata.

MS VAN DER WALT: When was that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think it was during 1991 or early 1992, I don't remember very well.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then at that stage already establish the SDU's?

J A MKHWANAZI: Gushu was responsible for the establishment of the SDU's.

MS VAN DER WALT: You already gave the instructions that he must establish the SDU's?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this instruction or this broader instruction from Chris Hani you received before you came into the country?

J A MKHWANAZI: Which one exactly are you referring to?

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you received an instruction to rectify the situation in the country where there is violence and you received this from Chris Hani.

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, when I was moving from Zambia.

MS VAN DER WALT: This was now in 1989?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there problems in Ermelo at that stage?

J A MKHWANAZI: I'm not aware as to whether there was but when I arrived I experienced some problems or I realised that there were some problems.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this now in Ermelo?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I said when I arrived there was already fighting or violence.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this violence to which Chris Hani referred to, was this the violence that you experienced in Ermelo?

J A MKHWANAZI: Chris Hani did not refer specifically to the violence in Ermelo but he issued an instruction with regard to Soweto as well as any other area that was experiencing violence problems.  When I arrived in Ermelo I realised that the very same situation existed even in Ermelo.  He did not specify any particular geographic area.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you went to go and see him in the Transkei, who was with you?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was all by myself.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you only went to him once, you were alone, did you then discuss the SDU's with him?

J A MKHWANAZI: We spoke about the situation of violence in Secunda, Ermelo as well as Piet Retief.  I also gave him a broader picture of the attempts in order to bring the situation under control.  I also pointed out to him that I had instructed a certain person to form self-defence units within the townships that I've already counted or mentioned.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did Chris Hani then give you further instructions regarding what these SDU's must do?

J A MKHWANAZI: He was happy with the way I was able to control and get hold of the situation.  He said to me I should keep it up, he was quite happy.

MS VAN DER WALT: You see Sir, I ask these questions of you because Mr Mndebele testified here and he was also called out of order especially to provide the Committee the opportunity, to give them the background history of the situation in Ermelo, do you remember that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Mr Mndebele testified that the organisation, the Anti-Crime Committee was only established in 1989 and it was initially a good committee who tried prevent crime here in Ermelo, do you remember that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: So at that stage the establishment of that Committee was directed to prevent ordinary crime, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: I will not be able to answer that because I had not yet arrived in Ermelo.  Mndebele would be in a better position to answer that question.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, but then shortly after that you came to Ermelo, that is a few months later.

J A MKHWANAZI: Although I'm not able to tell you how many months thereafter that I did come back to Ermelo.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you lived in Piet Retief, was it peaceful?

J A MKHWANAZI: There were attacks on members of the Mass Democratic Movement.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you finished?  I do not know if I heard everything that was translated.

J A MKHWANAZI: I said there was no peace, the situation was not normal.  There would be sporadic attacks on members of the Mass Democratic Movement, the Mass Democratic Front.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any action of the Black Cats during '89 to '91 or any violence in Piet Retief?  Mr Msibi will testify with regards to that.