Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Could you just please repeat them again because I want to verify that.

MR VALLY: Certainly, I'll go slowly.
 Dr van Rensburg late eighties, he talked about the incompetence of the operation at RRL. He talked about scientific and managerial irregularities.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally let me reply to that.  I confirm to you that I saw Dr van Rensburg only once and that was in '92 when he came to see me in my office to complain about the privatisation process.  By that time the company was already privatised.  I had no control over the company.  I listened to him.  That is the evidence that he gave you here the other day.  That he insisted, he says that he insisted that I should not have agents of the CCB here.  I confirm to you now that I had no idea who the agents of the CCB was, and the fact that Dr Basson and Dr Swanepoel was present there was based on the fact that I had no jurisdiction over that company at that stage, and I thought I could possibly solve his problem.

MR VALLY: I'll come back to that.  I will come back to your jurisdiction at the time.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But the point I am trying to make now is I did not see Dr van Rensburg at the time when you said that I had seen him.

MR VALLY: When did you see him?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: In 1992.

MR VALLY: '92, that's still before '94.  Did he complain of scientific irregularities?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He did not.

MR VALLY: He did not you say.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He complained only about the fact that he was unhappy with the privatisation process and the unfair sharing of the profits of the companies.

MR VALLY: I see.  And Dr Lourens, Dr Jan Lourens who came to tell you about the screwdrivers?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I confirmed to you just now that I did see Dr Jan Lourens at the request of Mr Meyer, as he testified here.  That was in '93.

MR VALLY: Yes.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And he came to see me in my office and that was where the discussion took place about the instruments that he had produced.

MR VALLY: Right.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And did he tell you that Dr Wouter Basson had instructed him to produce these items?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes he did, and he also confirmed that Doctor ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Surely this is more disturbing than the demarche?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally there was no indication at that time that it had anything to do with the programme.  I had also, at that stage - look you may think that this is not reasonable to say so, but I was totally convinced that it had nothing to do with the programme.

MR VALLY: The reason that I find it improbable is he was making instruments in which to put poison.  That is his evidence.  And he was told ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: No let me finish.  He was told to do so by Brigadier Basson, who was your project officer in charge of the institution.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: The project did not have a mandate to make poisons Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Let's phrase it in another way.  It had to develop possible biological warfare cultures, which included poisons.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But Mr Vally if you question Dr Jan Lourens he would confirm to you that we didn't even discuss the type of poisons or substances.

MR VALLY: No, no, but the point is you are in charge of a programme which you know is involved in chemical and biological warfare.  You know that Brigadier Basson is the project officer.  You are referred - you have a Dr Jan Lourens, who is involved in one of the front companies being referred to you by the Minister of Defence himself ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Dr Jan Lourens was not in one of the front companies, he was in Protechnic.

MR VALLY: I thought Protechnic was a front company.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No it was not, it was a private company.

MR VALLY: I would like to come back to that, but I certainly heard him say it was a front company.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I thought his evidence said it was a private company.

MR VALLY: Oh no.  And I will show you documentation as well which sets out that Protechnic was a front company.  But we'll come back to that.  Or maybe I should show it to you quickly and get it out of the way.  TRC14, a letter from Lieutenant General C P van der Westhuizen regarding Project Jotta, dated 25 March 1992.  I will read you the first paragraph.
"Project Jotta is a project managed by the Surgeon-General with Brigadier Wouter Basson as project officer.  The purpose of the project is to provide the South African Defence Force the offensive and defensive capabilities in biological and chemical warfare".
 Now you can turn to page 2, page 2 ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am still looking for the ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Oh I beg your pardon.  Has your attorney also not got a set?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: It's TRC14?

MR VALLY: 1-4.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That's the document that you also confronted General Neethling with.

MR VALLY: Yes.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And that was the document where General Neethling made it clear to you what he thought of this counter-intelligence document.

MR VALLY: That is General Neethling's answer.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: I am now busy with asking you this question.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am giving you exactly the same answer.

MR VALLY: Oh no.  I think you must first look at the document.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I've got the document ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Not with the same enthusiasm but ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: ....and I studied it.  I've studied it Mr Vally, and let me just make it clear to you that a counter-intelligence report like this is done by field workers that are searching out what they can discover about a particular programme and about individuals around it and so on.  This is an opinion.  This is not confirmed evidence.

MR VALLY: I will show you other documents about Protechnic which shows it's a front company.  But I want to point one thing out to you on this document.  Turn to the last page Sir.  The very last page, it's signed by C P van der Westhuizen, Head of Staff, Information, Lieutenant General; and underneath is "Distr", which I assume is "Distribution", for action HSAW, which I assume is Head South African Defence Force ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That's the Chief of the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Chief of the Defence Force, I beg your pardon.  And below that number two, copy no.2 - "For the information Surgeon-General.  Exclusive".

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Did you get a copy of this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am sorry I can't hear.

MR VALLY: Did you get a copy of this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Of course I did.

MR VALLY: Now are you telling me that you got a copy of this which says Protechnic is a front company and it was disinformation?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally I am saying to you that there are a number of issues on this document which is not correct.  When General van der Westhuizen sent me this copy I discussed it with him.  He was a member of the Coordinating Management Committee, and I said to him, this information, first of all about General Lothar Neethling is incorrect, and I've marked it on this copy here.  He was not informed about the project as he also testified here yesterday.

MR VALLY: Fine.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And furthermore the information given here about extra-marital relations, as far as I could establish, was also not correct.  And the details about the Coast Project is also not correct.

MR VALLY: And you say Protechnic was not a front company?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No, and I stand by that.  And as you will see in the little brochure that was published on the 10th anniversary of Protechnic I also make that statement, that it was a private company.