Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR LAMEY: But he didn't mention any names about ANC people?

JOE MAMASELA: Not to the best of my recollection.

MR LAMEY: Now can I refer you to page 14 of your statement?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Volume 2 Mr Chairman.
	Where you state, and this is now after he mentioned the AK47's:
"Me and Piet Mogoai also had to identify names of ANC members given by the old man"

JOE MAMASELA: No, you are quoting the whole thing out of context as usual.

MR LAMEY: No, I'm quoting the context in your statement Mr Mamasela ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: No, let me tell you something, no wait a minute.  I say you are quoting it out of context because I said one of our duties of me and Piet Mogoai as Askaris was to be there in order to identify the names that, the possible names of ANC cadres that he might confess to, not that he confessed to, that he might, the old man might confess to.  Out duty was to identify those people because we were trained in the ANC, we came from exile.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, here is states clearly
"Me and Piet Mogoai also had to identify names of ANC members mentioned by the old man"

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, but I told you, if he was going to mention those names we had to identify them, that was our duty but he never mentioned the names of ANC people.  Name those ANC people that I identified there, name them that I've identified, that the old man said: "These are ANC people".

MR LAMEY: Now, then what prompted the second assault on him?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, the second assault on him whilst I dragged him and I - because he couldn't sit properly, I had to drag him and put him against the wall.  As he sat there bleeding Koole asked him a question, I don't know what was the line of the question because it was even in my opinion a stupid question and the old man said: "No, no, no, that's a stupid question you are asking me" and that prompted the second brutal assault that led to his death, in my opinion.

MR LAMEY: So, what did Koole then do?

JOE MAMASELA: He started by kicking the old man very hard on the jaw, very hard,  and I saw the jaw twisting and being loose and then white foam came out of the old man's mouth and then he stumbled over and then Koole went on his - with the two knees on the old man's chest and he started strangling him.  It is then that the beating started again and the while, this time it was with ferocity, the highest ferocity.

ADV SANDI: Mr Lamey, you will agree with me that it is not our task to prescribe to counsel how he should go about asking his questions, but don't you think it would be more productive at this stage if you could put your questions to the witness in such a manner that you contrast the version of your clients with what he has got to say on those issues?

MR LAMEY: I'm coming to that Mr Chairman.  I promise you I'll come to that now.  I just want to get clarity on this aspect first from the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR LAMEY: Do I understand you correctly that Mr Koole was quite annoyed with this arrogant remark by Mr Hashe?

JOE MAMASELA: To say he was quite annoyed is an  understatement, he was furious with it.

MR LAMEY: And he grabbed him on the throat and started to strangle him.

JOE MAMASELA: He didn't start by grabbing him, he kicked him first.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

JOE MAMASELA: On the jaws and as the old man stumbled over he fell over, then he gripped him by, he put his knees on his chest and then he strangled him.

MR LAMEY: He strangled him by using both his hands on his throat?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: By brute force I assume?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, as usual.

MR LAMEY: In order to kill him?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't know what was his intention, you can ask him.

MR LAMEY: And while he was, while Koole was doing this the further assaults started also by other people on Mr Hashe?

JOE MAMASELA: With high ferocity, yes.

MR LAMEY: And you testified that this strangling by Koole with this brute force continued for half an hour?

JOE MAMASELA: Almost half an hour, yes.

MR LAMEY: And while Koole was doing this Hashe was assaulted?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: How was he assaulted by the other people?

JOE MAMASELA: He was kicked all over the body and to a certain extent, while Koole was holding him like this, he was also hit in the head and some of the blood fell over Koole's face and the upper body.

MR LAMEY: Who hit him over the head?

JOE MAMASELA: I've said it on numerous occasions and I say it again, it was Lieutenant Niewoudt.

MR LAMEY: With his iron pipe?

JOE MAMASELA: With his usual iron pipe.

MR LAMEY: Well how did it happen that Mr Koole wasn't struck by a blow?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't know, ask him not me, how he managed to stay away from the blows.  He is the one who can describe it better.

MR LAMEY: Did you participate in this assault at this stage?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I did not participate at that stage.

MR LAMEY: Why not?

JOE MAMASELA: It was obvious, Koole was sitting there on the old man strangling him, he was no longer screaming, he was lying there helplessly and he was being beaten and the ultimate analysis I could see him, you know his body just shaking and it lay there still while Koole was still holding him.  That's when the other people sought to stop assaulting him because he lay still.

MR LAMEY: So he became lifeless while Koole was still strangling him?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Do you say that he died as a result of that?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't want to commit myself, I'm not a doctor, I cannot determine whether he died as a result of strangling or wounds or whatever, I don't know.

MR LAMEY: Now I want to put it to you Mr Mamasela, that if you look at your statement, that nowhere do you make mention of Lieutenant Niewoudt in particular, assaulting Hashe with his iron bar at this stage.

JOE MAMASELA: What did I say then?  I said it's only Koole who assaulted him.  I said others followed in, they joined and he was assaulted with more ferocity than before.  So you are asking me to elaborate that statement, I'm elaborating, you are accusing me now.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, I want to put it to you, not only that it is Mr Koole's version that he did not do this.  He did not at any stage strangle Mr Hashe and neither was he the man who kicked him, who broke his jaw, that is not what happened.

JOE MAMASELA: So I'm lying.  The people are still alive, let them produce the people.  Let the people talk for themselves and say: "Mamasela you are lying, you are lies".  Where are the people?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not whether or not people are still alive.   I mean, all the applicants agree that they have since died but they say they died in a different way, so they cannot be produced on any bodies version.   I think restrict yourself to yes to whether or not you agree with Koole's version or not.  If you agree with him say: "Yes", if you disagree with him say: "Well, I do not agree with that".

JOE MAMASELA: I think it is absolutely incorrect, his version.

MR LAMEY: Now Mr Mamasela, I want to put it to you further, and I will show this to the Committee by tangible evidence, that Mr Koole as a result of the fact that he sustained a very serious wound and who got injured during a robbery in 1980 when he was stationed in Thabazimbi, his arm was injured to such an extent that he was incapable of strangling a person in the manner that you have described it, by brute force, until he was lifeless.