Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Of what evidential value is then when it refersto somebody who is supposed to be about 30 to 35 years old? Whodid you say this referred to, do you know?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the post-mortems are attached toan inquest that was held and on the inquest there is also no mentionof the names.  It just says, the person unknown and 35 years.

JUDGE WILSON: Do the other post-mortem reports that yousay you have give ages?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, they do.

JUDGE WILSON: What are they?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The other one is aged 30 to 35 and the otherone indicates as aged 32 years.  Still no names disclosed as whothese people were.  The whole inquest just indicates "unknown,unknown person".

UNKNOWN: So you've got two reports of persons of theage 30 to 35, is that correct?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Only one 30 to 35.

UNKNOWN: And the other one, 30 to?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The other one is 35, the other one is 32.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Currin, can I ask you something whilethey are still looking at the document?  What are your instructionsfrom Maake's mother with regard to the question of a vehicle,his use of a vehicle?  I haven't heard that  being put to thewitness.

MR CURRIN: ... opportunity to raise one or two furtherpoints that have arisen as a result of subsequent cross-examination,put something to him, and I am quite happy to do that now whilewe are waiting.   We do have instructions on that point.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Van Vuuren, for how long did Maake usethis vehicle?

MR VAN VUUREN: It is very difficult to say.  I wouldguess that it was immediately from his return from
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training in Botswana, for about three, maybe five months.  I wouldnot be able to say exactly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Warrant Officer Van Vuuren, for how longhad Maake been an informant of the Security Police prior to himbeing sent to Botswana for training?

MR VAN VUUREN: I don't know.  I would not be able to say. I took him over from Warrant Officer Van Wyk immediately afterhis recruiting, but I don't know how long after his recruitmentthis would have been.

SISI KHAMPEPE: (Question not recorded)

MR VAN VUUREN: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I want you to explain to us what the procedurewas for the conveyance of information by informers to the SecurityPolice.

MR VAN VUUREN: It usually worked in this way.  The informantwould at certain specified times, say, early in the morning, maybeat twelve o'clock at night, maybe late at night, the informantwould arrive at a particular place where his handler, the SecurityPoliceman who handles him, would then meet with him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were informants not expected at all to makea call at the Security Offices if they had urgent and relevantinformation?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, for that purpose they had a phone number,the phone number of his handler, and he could phone that numberif there was some urgent matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many times had Mr Maake made these unwelcomedvisits that led to your drawing conclusions about his good intentionsas an informer?

MR VAN VUUREN: Probably four or five times.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How were they spaced, the five times thatyou
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mention, was that weekly or monthly or was that in a short spaceof time in a particular week?

MR VAN VUUREN: I would say that it happened over the courseof maybe two months, a month to two months, I am not quite sure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... order to the informer to investigateMr Maake with regard to his double agency status?

MR VAN VUUREN: Let me explain this.  Mr Hechter, Mr Mamaselaand myself worked in one corner of the offices.  I wouldn't beable to say how many, but there were about 200 staff persons onthis branch.  All of these were handlers of informants, some had10 informants, others had two informants.  Every morning Mr Hechterand myself would sit in a meeting with Colonel Loots, our CommandingOfficer.  The informant reports with regard to the most importantinformation out of the reports would have been given to ColonelLoots.  He would have written this down in a diary for the conferenceimmediately after that.  It was never my informant that gave thisinformation that Maake might be a double agent.  Nor can I rememberwhose informant it was.  In view of the clandestine nature ofthe operation we didn't ask whose informant gave the information. We were concerned about leaks out of the Security Police.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you come to be aware of this information? This is what you state in your affidavit.  You became suspiciousof this guy and your suspicion was later  confirmed on the reportsreceived from an informer.

MR VAN VUUREN: That is, as I have explained.  In the mornings,while everyone met, the previous days - with regard to what happenedthe previous day and night, this information would have been madeknown to us in this
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general meeting and we would the have been told that we had tobe careful in view of our activities.  Colonel Loots knew whatwe were doing, and he then called us and told us that we had tobe careful because there was information that Maake was a doubleagent.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When and where was the landmine obtainedthat blasted the three bodies of the activists?

MR VAN VUUREN: Through the activities of myself and CaptainHechter, we normally had explosives, landmines, AK47 rifles andso forth which we had available in our vehicle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that even though you had nointention initially to kill the three activists, you neverthelesscarried the bombs and the rifles and all kinds of ammunition? Was that the way you operated?

MR VAN VUUREN: Captain Hechter is an explosives expertand he usually had a large amount of explosives with him in thevehicle.  In the nature of the case he was called out to placeswhere bombs might have been and we then used these explosivesto get rid of this bomb or possible bomb.  Captain Hechter alwayshad explosives in the back of his vehicle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You've also given evidence that you had totie the feet of the activists during the interrogation and thefirst day of Mr Maake's interrogation he was left in the companyof, I think it is Warrant Officer Tshalela, and the other warrantofficer.  Were these people armed?  Were the security officersarmed?

MR VAN VUUREN: They were not warrant officers, they wereconstables, they were armed.  They had their usual 9mm pistolswith them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... necessary to still tie the activists'feet
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when you had two constables who were fully armed?

MR VAN VUUREN: We were scared that they would run away.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... the fact that you had two constables.

MR VAN VUUREN: Your Honour, if there would have been ashootout, which we wanted to prevent, we acted in a preventiveway.  We rather tied them than to explain later on.

MR CURRIN: I just want to put it to you that from theinstructions we have from Elizabeth Maake, who is Jackson Maake'smother, she never ever saw him drive a motor vehicle, he neverever brought a motor vehicle home.

MR VAN VUUREN: That is untrue.  The vehicle was in MrMaake's possession for a considerable time.  I can't understandhow she can say that she never saw it.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, we have here copies of a photographwhich we have now discussed and have got permission from Mrs Maaketo hand it up to you and to show a copy of the photograph to thiswitness and to ask him whether he can identify Jackson Maake. So with your permission ....(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should first find out whether weare talking about the same person before you start handing upthe photograph.