Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

CHAIRPERSON: We'd appreciate that.

MR PANDAY: That's fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Will that not inconvenience members of Correctional Services with regard to Mr Dlamini and provision for his lunch?  May we hear from the members of Correctional Services?  Will that be ...?  So we'll adjourn for 30 minutes and we'll resume our proceedings at twenty to two.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We're now proceeding to hear the evidence of Mr Dlamini.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday the ball is in your court.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.

MR PANDAY: (cont)
	Mr Dlamini, now we move on to after you had cleansed yourself, everyone had cleansed themselves, did any other incident take place at your residence regarding the victim that was murdered?  Was anything else decided?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Nothing happened after that.  We just sat and everything was okay.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, now I ask you the most important question, please tell the Committee what was achieved, or what were you all to have achieved by killing the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Our problem is that he was an IFP member.

MR PANDAY: I understand you say it was that he was an IFP member, but what were you to have achieved by killing this IFP member?  How did it help your group, your community?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We would not have achieved anything except for our safety.

MR PANDAY: And when you talk about achieving your safety, how did this victim affect your safety?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He affected our safety because we did not trust him.

MR PANDAY: Tell me, did you and the others know the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Makashleni was the one person who knew the deceased.

MR PANDAY: Who is Makashleni?  Was he known by any other name?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That's the only name by which we knew him in the area.

MR PANDAY: I'm going to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was he one of the accused in the trial that you had?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he one of your group of 16?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he was part of us.

ADV DE JAGER: So you said he knew the deceased?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he knew him very well.

ADV DE JAGER: Where is this man now, do you know?  Did he stay with you, Makashleni?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I left him at a place where we resided.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he tell you about this man?  What was this man's name?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He did not mention his name, save to say he knew the person.  He was hiding in a sheepskin.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was hiding in a sheepskin, the deceased?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't inquire about the name of the deceased and to which party he belonged, because Makashleni could tell you all about it?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Makashleni did mention that this person was an IFP member and he had known him for a very long time.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, in the affidavit by Lucky, he stated that
"The stranger was questioned"
paragraph 15 page 11
"as to why he was in the area and where was he from."
Is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And later on in paragraph 18
"I honestly don't remember the name and the surname of the victim.  It is true he told us his particulars during torture, prior to his death."
Did he in fact tell you his particulars, his name and where he was from?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He did not give us his details.

ADV DE JAGER: But Makashleni could give you all the details?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, Makashleni knew him very well, but then the only information that we got from Makashleni was that this person was known to him to be an IFP member.

ADV DE JAGER: Did Makashleni also attend the cleansing ceremony?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, he was not present.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he stay with you at the same shacks?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he was a resident in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he one of the 16 members who held this gathering, or who came together and decided to kill this man?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, he was not part of the group of 16.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he present at all on the day of the killing?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He came in the middle of discussions.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he also interrogate the deceased, asking him questions?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.  He did not ask him any question.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he present when you asked him the questions?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He came after we had concluded asking him questions.

ADV DE JAGER: Before you released him or after you had released him and recaptured him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He came at the time when we were punishing him.

ADV DE JAGER: And when you tied him to the tree was he present?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, he had already left at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, let's come back to you.  I think you were still pursuing your questioning with regard to what political objective was sought to be achieved by the applicant, by killing the deceased.  You may proceed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when I asked you what your objective was to achieve by the killing of the victim you said that we did not trust him, now what was there not to trust in him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I did explain that he was a member of the IFP, him being so, so that we did not trust him, fearing that he might come back with other IFP members to attack us.

MR PANDAY: Now, I must ask you, your fear that he may come back with other IFP members to attack you, when did this fear arise?  Was it when you all released him, or before you all released, or when you apprehended him?  When did you all have this fear?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: This occurred to us after we had disciplined him.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, besides the fact that he may come back with other IFP members, was there any other fear he posed by virtue of the fact that he was an IFP member?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: What are those fears, Mr Dlamini?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: They came one evening at 12 and shots were fired just down the street and they kept advancing, such that we fled and took refuge in the veld where we slept and only came back on the following morning.  Our belongings had been destroyed but we continued staying there.

CHAIRPERSON: Has your question been answered Mr Panday, is he not repeating his earlier fear, because what seems to be repeated to me is that he is still repeating his fear of having to be subjected to retaliatory attacks and there is no other fear that he has evidenced to.

MR PANDAY: Yes, he hasn't answered my question, I will pursue until I get a reasonable answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have probably other instructions which would suggest that there were more fears than he has already given testimony to and that's why you are pursuing that line of questioning?

MR PANDAY: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe try and phrase it in such a way that he can speedily come to what you want him to say.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, did the victim pose any threat to the community in your area?

CHAIRPERSON: Other than having to be subjected to attacks from the IFP members, is that what you are asking him?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was problematic in addition to what explanation was given.  They also killed one of us and they'd indicated that they were going to wipe us out one after another and they were going to do it such that it would look like we'd been hit or knocked down by a car and they also wrote a letter to my father indicating that my father had given birth to comrades and therefore his lifespan would be short.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you referring to in particular in the IFP who wrote the letter to your dad about yourself?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I'm talking about the IFP leader at Shayamoya.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where the deceased came from?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the name of this leader?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Mashinela is the name.