Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Are you referring to Mbandazayo?

ADV SANDI: Yes.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes he is aware of these things.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman just before, I want to confirm that Mr Chairman but it was not related that he told me about the memory when I was dealing with those Orange Free State incident that he cannot even remember because he was beaten by the police. So his memory is bad. Not necessary about this incident here, Donne Meyers. I know that he told me about the memory, that he has bad memory. In fact I could not even get an affidavit for him regarding other incidents. I was helped by other, I happen to trace some who were involved with him, who happen to help in those incidents in which he was involved. So he could not remember some of those incidents in the Free State. So I do confirm that he told me about the loss of memory.

CHAIRPERSON: Have any endeavours been made or arrangements made to have him consult with a doctor to see if there is any treatment that he can be given for this?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I only talked to the head of the prison at St. Aubus, Mr Nomsang about this, this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if he did anything about it because the correctional services are usually careful about having people examined if they are suspected to be unwell?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman after that I left St. Aubus prison and I met him here and he told me that, that has not yet been done. And unfortunately Mr Chairman I must concede that because of the bulk of the cases I am handling I am not in a position to communicate with the prison because there is also another prisoner who is also having a similar problem I was intending that I will take their issue, both of them. Because there is another, Bobby Tshala who is also having that similar problem. I was going to approach the East London whether there is something can be done for them. Because it is worse with him as compared to him. At least him, he was able to remember this case of Donne Meyers. So that is why I felt that we may be in a position to proceed with this, regarding this one. But I have not taken any further steps Mr Chairman. I must concede on that aspect. I was unable to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: I must confess that I have great difficulty now in understanding that you say you were not able to get affidavits in respect of other events, he cannot remember. But now we have been given an affidavit today in respect of this which we are apparently supposed to rely on. What weight can we attach to it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I think more than not the remembering, he does not remember the incidents because, clearly because, those other incidents because he is not familiar with the ground in which they operated, more specifically. That it was in Free State. But he remembers that he was involved in operating in a certain place in Free State he was involved in other (...indistinct) But he cannot give me the details, where it was exactly because he was not familiar as such. But he did mention the question of loss of memory to me. But I take it when he was explaining to me is that the reason why he cannot even give the affidavits because he is not familiar with the terrain in which they were operating because he is not from that area. Hence even in this case Mr Chairman he cannot even tell us the location, what was the place in Transkei in which it happened. But he knows that this thing happened and it happened this way. But he cannot say precisely some of the locations, that it was in this place. He remembers some of them which are well known but the rural areas it is difficult for him. Except to know that the other place was Mbashe because of the well known Mbashe River.

ADV SANDI: In the light of what you have just said Mr Mbandazayo, how much weight then should we attach to this affidavit which you gave us this morning?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I would not say there is no weight that can be attached to this affidavit. If he cannot remember what was happening in court. He explained to the Committee that he had no interest in what was happening in the court. So definitely I would understand then he will not remember anything because he did not care what was happening. Whether whatever sentence he get, whatever happens in the trial. Then definitely a person is that not necessarily because of the damage as a result of assault that he does not remember. I think it is attributed to the fact mostly because he had no interest in the trial. I would not have assisted in making this affidavit Mr Chairman if he did not remember anything regarding the incident itself but of course I asked him about the court he said he did not participate in anything that was happening in court.

ADV SANDI: Any way in this affidavit when I look at it he seems to have a reasonably clear recollection of what happened.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is why I am saying Mr Chairman that I do not see any reason that this affidavit can be discarded as a result of what the applicant is saying. Because it is not relating to the actual incident that took place. If I get him correctly he saying that because he had no interest at the trial at that time, he cannot remember what was happening and because he was not part of it. He was there just because he was arrested and he was charged. That is my understanding Mr Chairman, I do not know.

ADV SANDI: Maybe you can let Mr Botma continue.

MR BOTMA: Thank you. Just to get back what is being said now by your legal representative, are you saying that your lack of memory of the trial is because you were not interested in the trial or because of the injuries you sustained when arrested by the police?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: First of all I had no interest. Secondly my having been beaten up affected. At the time I had not even recovered. I was not fine. I was beaten up too much. It created an attitude problem as well. I told myself that I am not going to cooperate with these people, they badly injured me. They did not even take me to a doctor. They must do what they think best to do with me.

MR BOTMA: Just a last aspect. Can you recall that after the first inspection in logo there was a second inspection in logo where another spot was pointed out where the truck of Thanduxolo was parked? This time about six hundred metres of this place where Mike Meyers' truck was. Can you recall that or not?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not know how many times I went there but I do remember going there. Perhaps my co-accused can help me where I do not remember. I cannot remember all this.

MR BOTMA: So you cannot recall the second inspection in logo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Perhaps I did go a second time. I am not disputing that. I am not admitting to it. I do not know.

MR BOTMA: Let's get back to your affidavit here (...indistinct) it is marked e. in this matter. Are you saying this affidavit is correct and it is a true reflection of what happened on that day?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR BOTMA: There is no problem with your memory the way you were affected by assault by the police when making this affidavit?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Maybe there would be a problem here and there, things that I have not mentioned because I have forgotten. But the affidavit is as I say it is true.

MR BOTMA: Everything inside this affidavit is correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes because it is what happened.

MR BOTMA: Now on this day, the 27th of August where did you meet Thanduxolo the first time on that day? ... Thanduxolo, before this incident before the killing of Mike Meyers on that day?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I think so because I was given the orders directly. Yes I think it was so. I must have seen him before. If I remember correctly yes I met with him because he asked me to do a reconnaissance before the attack.