Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've gone past that.  All that I want to find out from you is, you told us a minute ago that you were given this R150 so that you should not disclose the fact that there were police and white men during the attack.  Did you say that?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Can you recall approximately when this occurred?

MS M MOLETE: If I can recall I think it would be before the 77 people were jailed in 1993.  I cannot remember the day and the month, but I think I've got them at home.

MR LAX: Can I just understand something?  You said something about disowning people, I didn't quite follow that, something like "today they disown those people", what did you mean?  Did that happen today or did that happen on that day, what exactly are you saying?  I just don't understand that.

MS M MOLETE: That was stated when we were at Pretoria.

MR LAX: State by who?

MS M MOLETE: By Mr Strydom.

MR LAX: Just repeat the gist of what was said, I just didn't catch it clearly so I just didn't get a proper note.

MS M MOLETE: He stated that he does not deny.  He heard that the police and the white men were there, but today these people are being disowned without no assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: He said to you - well let me put it this way, who are the people who were not denying that the police were there?  Were these the accused persons or the police?

MS M MOLETE: They accused persons.  He said it was the accused persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So what Mr Strydom told you is that the accused were not denying the fact that the white men and the police had been present during the attack.

MS M MOLETE: Yes, that's what he stated.  He did not say this to myself alone, we were a group of people in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: But that the accused were then being deserted by the police and the white men?

MS M MOLETE: As he stated, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had been called to testify you would have told the court that there were white men and policemen during the attack?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Strydom knew that that is what you were going to say?

MS M MOLETE: I would know what he would have in his mind, but like I've been saying I would testify that the white men were there.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't ask you about what you saw on that day?

MS M MOLETE: He was actually asking us about our statements and police who were there we must not speak to him secretly, we must talk to him in the open right there where we were.  Thereafter he send some of us to go and buy food barrels and that is when after we got this R150.  We didn't use the State vehicles to get there.  And he said we must organise a car and he paid it later on.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Was it Mr Strydom who paid for the motor vehicle?

MS M MOLETE: He paid the owner of the motor vehicle, he himself.  We were all in that office where he had called us.

CHAIRPERSON: And was the driver also there?

MS M MOLETE: He was there.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Strydom took out money from his pocket and paid.

MS M MOLETE: He had all the money, even the one that he gave to us.  And the driver got money, R150, except that for the petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, you mentioned that you could remember seven of the people who were present, can you give us their names?

MS M MOLETE: I remember Mhlango, Phule ...

ADV SIGODI: Your sister?

MS M MOLETE: Mrs Tsoatetsi, Keketsi, Simon, Makhoedi.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MS M MOLETE: M-A-K-H-O-E-D-I.  And then myself and my child, Mita.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what is Simon's surname, do you know?

MS M MOLETE: Simon Moloi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

ADV SIGODI: Did you attend the trial when the accused were giving evidence?

MS M MOLETE: No, we only went to testify.

ADV SIGODI: But you said that you did not testify at the criminal trial.

MS M MOLETE: In fact we never attended court, we were just asked questions in some of the rooms, not that we entered the courtroom and gave evidence.  I went twice.  On the third occasion we were called by Mr Strydom.  At first Mr Kekana would call us and they would question us in some of the rooms, not in court.

MR SIBANYONI: Mrs Molete, where are there rooms you are talking about?

MS M MOLETE: They are at Pretoria.  As you enter the main entrance there are some various rooms, not in the courtroom, they are like offices, these rooms.

MR SIBANYONI: Who owns the rooms, is it the police or lawyers?

MS M MOLETE: Where they write in events, statements.  Like if I go and lay a charge, that's where they write things down.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you see police around there?

MS M MOLETE: The police were at all times on guard, they were present.

MR SIBANYONI: You have just said sometimes you were called by Mr Kekana who would ask you about the events, is it the Kekana who was interpreting for you, who was speaking the mixture of Tsetedi and Tswana?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, it is them.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me.  Now the Strydom you are talking about, is it the Strydom to whom you were giving a statement when Kekana was interpreting for you?  I'm just using the word Strydom.  Is it a white person to whom you were giving a statement when Mr Kekana was interpreting for you?

MS M MOLETE: That is not Strydom.  The one who was with Kekana was a Steenkamp.  At the moment we are speaking about Strydom.  The one who was talking to Kekana is Steenkamp.

MR SIBANYONI: I also heard you saying that it was before these people were arrested, or before they were tried, did I understand you correctly?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: The trial had already started, but it was before they were convicted.

MS M MOLETE: Yes, we would go to Delmas.  They would go to Delmas and Pretoria and other places.  They have not yet been convicted.

MR SIBANYONI: Now how did Mr Strydom call you, was it by way of a letter or was it telephonically?

MS M MOLETE: It was a letter, because we were always first by motor vehicles, kombis, State kombis at the different stages.  So many would go and then later on so many would go and then they would be questioned so and so on.

MR SIBANYONI: And - okay, lastly, you were called in preparation of the trial.  In other words they were trying to find out from your group who will be called as State witnesses.  Did you understand that that way?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: What I'm trying to find out is whether you are not making a mistake when you say this person who was calling you is Mr Strydom, when in fact it was part of the prosecution.

MS M MOLETE: I am not making a mistake, and the others would come and give evidence on this matter.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When the trail of the accused commenced, did you go to court?

MS M MOLETE: No, Sir.

INTERPRETER: The answer is "no".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The only time you were called in connection with the trial was when it was in Pretoria?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first time you attended the, you went to court when the trial was proceeding?

MS M MOLETE: We would go there on a daily basis, but we would not enter the court.  I went thrice myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  When you went there for the first time, did anyone speak to you?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it, can you recall?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know the surname of that policeman.  It is Themba and Lucky Kekana, in the company of Mr Steenkamp in that room.  We would go in one after the other and we would be questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Do you know what a prosecutor is?

MS M MOLETE: I have not been to court.

CHAIRPERSON: The Steenkamp that you are talking about, is that the Steenkamp to whom you made a statement?

MS M MOLETE: I was giving my statement to Lucky Kekana and he would tell Mr Steenkamp what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Now apart from Kekana, Steenkamp and, did you say Lucky?

MR LAX: Themba.