Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: ... explain to you gentlemen we have had a message that Mr Du Plessis has been delayed.  I understand that his delay was due to the aircraft being delayed in Johannesburg, at the airport, and he will be arriving later this morning, but it should not affect us at the moment.
	I think we could just continue from where we were yesterday and hope that he arrives some time this morning.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman, yes, we are ready to proceed.  Just to remind the members of the Committee, Mr Chairman, yesterday we were busy with item number 13 in Bundle A, page 148, that is the assault and torture of detained or arrested political activists at the offices of the police station at Fountains Street, Bloemfontein for which Mr Motsamai had applied for amnesty.
	Now, you in your evidence, Mr Motsamai, gave a list of names whom you say were people as I understand it to be, who were tortured but not necessarily whom you tortured.  Am I right?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Repeat your question, my headset was not working.

MR BRINK: Is it working now, Mr Motsamai, can you hear me?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I can hear you.

MR VISSER: Do you want me to repeat the question?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes please.

MR VISSER: I will repeat the question.  Mr Motsamai, you gave a list of people to the Committee when you gave your evidence in chief, starting with Brian Nakedi, going on to Mokgamisi, etc, and you gave a list of I believe 26  different items, not necessarily names, items of people who were assaulted at Bloemfontein at the police station, is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And that is the list which you read from page 140 to 141 of Bundle A, under D - Torture.  That is correct, isn't it?  140?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: All right, now in regard to that list are you able to look at that list and to tell the Committee which of those persons or items, as it were, coincided with the application of Mr Ngo in regard to the 20 to 25 people whom he says were arrested?
	Can I help you, let's start with  Brian Nakedi.  He is clearly not one of those persons, would you agree with me?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Are you referring to people who were tortured at the office, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: No, what Counsel is talking about is you remember Mr Ngo said there was a group of people who I think were arrested near the border, they were going to cross to Lesotho, and they were brought back and eventually came to your office.  It is one group of people, do you remember his evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what Counsel wants to know was which of the people if any that appear in your list, or that you gave evidence about, were part of that group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Oupa Makhubalo, Number 3 on the list.

MR VISSER: I am sorry Mr Motsamai, perhaps you found the easy way to do this.  Are you referring to page 140 and 141 now and you are going to tell us which of those people fall within that group that Mr Ngo was talking about, is that what you are going to do?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, sir.

MR VISSER: All right,  Oupa Makhubalo is item number 3, yes?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: John Jwuayi,  Baba Khuzela.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you give us the number please.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is item 5, John Jwuayi and number 6, Baba Khuzela.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I could help.  Look at number 11.  Your evidence in this regard was that he was forced to do frog jumps and you started your evidence about JeJe to say that he was the same as Oupa, Oupa Makhubalo.  That is why I am drawing your attention to it.

ADV DE JAGER: Possibly the same one as Papie?  JeJe?

MR VISSER: My note reads, he started off with Oupa Makhubalo and then in three or four instances, Mr Chairman, he said this is the same as Oupa.
	And we took that to mean that it was the same group, he came in in the same group, but perhaps we were wrong to assume that because - well, perhaps you can just go on.  I think you just go on on your own and tell us.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I now remember his surname, his surname is Lichaba.  When he was among the group which was performing frog jumps.  But he was not amongst the group that was moved from the border.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, do it on your own then.  You have mentioned number 6 - just read them and go through these items on your own.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I have checked my own list.  I only get the three I have mentioned.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Motsamai, we seem to be in agreement with that, but thank you for clearing that up for us.

CHAIRPERSON: May I ask something.  Monapori Ntama, number 4, when you gave evidence about him, you said he also wanted to cross the border.  Was he one of this group or did he want to cross the border separately or on another occasion?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is not in the incident of the 25 people.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we gave attention to that very person and we noted that the evidence of Mr Motsamai was he started off by saying, we took him from his home.
	But for the rest, there were certainly indications that he might have been a member of that group.

CHAIRPERSON: He has cleared it up now and said he wasn't.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, in the list of people at page 140/141, after you gave the whole list, you said at the end of your evidence, you received instructions from Lieutenant Shaw, do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, My Lord.

MR VISSER: Would you please explain precisely with regard to these people that you say were assaulted, what were the instructions of Lieutenant Shaw?  When were they given and what did you have to do?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In the morning just before the parade, we would go to Lieutenant Shaw's office, he was sharing it with Mr Coetzee.
	When giving commands, he used to say to all of us - he would tell the whole Unit there are comrades and if there is any information we need regarding the incidents and their organisations, we should also look for movements of certain people of the African National Congress and to further find out whether in their organisation, or in their different organisations, who are the members of the Executive.
	We should make it possible that they should be so scared of taking forth their organisations.

MR VISSER: Are you finished?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: And for that matter, we should assault them so that we can retrieve information from them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I just want to make it absolutely clear, find out from you how you understood the situation.  Was the instruction that you had to obtain information and if you couldn't do so freely and voluntarily, you had to assault them?  Is that what you say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Even if they were giving information voluntarily, we were also supposed to assault them so that they get scared to take forward their movement.  In other words, they should not organise any more.

MR VISSER: That is why I am asking you this question, you see, because this is the impression I got from your evidence.  And I want to ask you this, if you took a man into an office and you said to him I want some information from you, why did you go to the border, who helped you and he says, well, I will tell you, this is why I went there, I wanted to join MK and Mr X helped me and I was going to meet Mr Y on the other side, why would you have to assault him?
	Wouldn't you inhibit him rather if you assaulted him while he is giving you information?