Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

MR MILLER: And that he was that day looking for firearms so that they could arm themselves over there.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, I've heard that.

MR MILLER: So did he not say anything to your brother about a firearm?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He never made mention of a firearm at any stage.

MR MILLER: So what exactly was the reason that he shot your brother?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, sorry, objection.  How is he supposed to know?

CHAIRPERSON: Well did he say anything before or during the time he shot your brother?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He never said anything to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he not ask for the keys?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: His colleague for the keys, not him.

MR MILLER: And were the keys handed to his colleague?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, he handed him the keys.

MR MILLER: So he didn't shoot him for not handing over the keys then?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean?

MR MILLER: Well he says that he handed him the keys, he didn't shoot him because he didn't want to hand over the keys.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He handed him the keys, that I'm definitely sure of.  Because I was sitting right behind him I saw him giving him the keys.

MR MILLER: So then my client is right when he says that the motive - well, let me ask you another thing before I get there, my client - well, did your brother do anything with his firearm, did he lift it up, did he point it?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: No, Sir.

MR MILLER: You mean to tell me a policeman who is being attacked, his motorcar keys are being robbed from he, who is armed, does nothing to reach for his arm, a trained policeman?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you brother do anything to indicate that he was armed, in your view?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He did nothing other than giving them the car keys.  He handed them the car keys with this right hand and he never showed any signs of trying to do anything else.

MR MILLER: How long was he in the force, how many years?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I cannot clearly recall because it's been quite a long time now.

MR MILLER: Well was it more than five years?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It might have been 10 years or so.

MR MILLER: So a policeman who has been in the force 10 years or so, and who is armed and who is robbed, does nothing with his firearm during the course of that robbery?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Given the circumstances that prevailed at that time, he couldn't do anything, he hand no choice.

MR MILLER: Well we know that there was a police radio in the car, did he try and summon help?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: The person who got inside the car ripped the wire off, the wire of that microphone.

MR MILLER: So would my client then not be right when he says that the aim that day was to rob your brother of his firearm?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is incorrect.

MR MILLER: How can you say that, did he say anything to make you think otherwise?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He never said anything to hint me.

MR MILLER: No, I'm not talking about hitting you, I'm saying, did he say anything ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: He did not say "hit", he said "hinting", thank you.

MR MILLER: So therefore it's quite possible that he's telling the truth, that he wanted the firearm?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He' telling a lie.

MR MILLER: How do you know, why do you say he's telling a lie.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: They ran off with the car keys and not the firearm.

MR MILLER: Yes, but that is what my client says, he says that after the shot they went away without the firearm, but their aim, their purpose was to get the firearm.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Please explain your question.

MR MILLER: My client says he agrees with you that they ran away without the firearm, but he says that their purpose that day was to get the firearm.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I cannot comment on that.

MR MILLER: So then why did you, why did you say earlier that he didn't want the firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: According to his evidence, the firearm was never requested.

MR MILLER: Yes, but he went further, when I asked him, when I put it to him that the aim that day was to get the firearm, he emphatically denied that that could be so.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm explaining to you why, because it wasn't asked.  If you wanted something, wouldn't you ask for it?

MR MILLER: Well he might have wanted to get hold of it, take it out of the waistband.

CHAIRPERSON: Well proceed.

MR MILLER: Okay, now tell me, how do you feel about this whole incident?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I've got nothing to say.  I am just satisfied by the fact that he has been arrested.  I cannot forgive him.

MR MILLER: And if it is so that he was committing a robbery to get hold of a firearm to protect himself in the ANC squatter camp against the IFP attacks from the hostel, would that make a difference to the way you feel?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Please repeat your question.

MR MILLER: If it was so that he was trying to steal the firearm and that he was doing it to protect the people in the squatter camp against the IFP, would that change your feelings?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I am not against the fact that he wanted the firearm to protect himself or the community, but he killed the deceased.

MR MILLER: So in other words what you are saying is he shouldn't get amnesty?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He did nothing to me personally.  He has killed the deceased, but this was the most hurting incident in my life, therefore I do not have any forgiveness for him.

MR MILLER: Well do you think he should get amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller, whether he says yes or no, is not going to influence our decision, our job is to check whether the applicant has complied with the Act.

MR MILLER: As it pleases, Chairperson.  You of course don't dispute my client's political affiliations, that he was a member of the ANC?

MR MILLER: Sorry, Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether Mr Nhlapo was a member of the ANC or not?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I'm not aware of that.

MR MILLER: Do you know whether he was part of the ANC's Self Defence Units?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I do not believe that.

MR MILLER: Why not?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Please repeat the question.

MR MILLER: Why do you not believe that he was part of the Self Defence Units?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It is difficult to say because I do not know him that well.

MR MILLER: Okay, but you are aware that at this time when this incident happened, there was conflict between the ANC and the IFP, generally?

CHAIRPERSON: We, Mr Miller, have heard a number of matters such as this and we are aware of the conflict.

MR MILLER: As it pleases the Chair.  Well I have no further questions then, Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: Just one.
	Whereabouts in his waist was the deceased's firearm, can you show us?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Show us.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was on his waist at the back side, not on the sides.

UNKNOWN: Could  you see his firearm, was it visible?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was well hidden.

UNKNOWN: You've heard the applicant's evidence, he says his friend saw the firearm, what is your comment to that?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: ...(no English interpretation)

UNKNOWN: The applicant said in his evidence his friend saw the firearm of the deceased, what is your comment to that?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He didn't see it.

UNKNOWN: How do you know that?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Mr Nhlapo's colleague entered from the left-hand side and the deceased was sitting on the driver's seat.  Mr Nhlapo's colleague was on the left-hand side and the deceased was sitting on the right-hand side.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Now I just want to get some information about the deceased's wife, what is her full name?  I'm asking the witness.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: She is Maria Molaoa.

CHAIRPERSON: And her address?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It's 3844 Pimville, Zone 4.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your brother have any children?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, he had children.

CHAIRPERSON: How many children?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Four children.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give me their names and ages?