Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I will start then at page 15, paragraph 5.  Can you, for the benefit of the Committee, explain the last sentence"
"I rose through the ranks of APLA up to the level of Regional Commissar and ultimately to regional commander"

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, if I may explain.  What I was trying to say here is that I started off as an ordinary force within the Azanian People's Liberation Army and rose through the ranks as per the hierarchy which existed and noticeably changed from time to time, up until the position of Regional Commissar.   And ultimately, when I say ultimately I mean just before 1994's general elections, I held the position of regional commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I will proceed and go to paragraph 9 at page ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Before you do Mr Mbandazyo
	What area were you regional commander of, so we can situate where you were posted and so on?  Just give us that background please.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  To start with, being a regional commander was a position or a responsibility that was given to a particular person because of whatever reason,  It was not a position that made somebody to be area bound.
	In may case particularly, I was regional commander in the Eastern Cape.  When I say the Eastern Cape, it started from across The Kei up until the former Eastern Cape, as it was demarcated in the previous apartheid system.

MR LAX: When you say: "across the Kei", do you include what was formally called the Transkei or how far up towards that area and so on, just so that we can be clear about this because it's getting bit vague?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Although, if I'm at Transkei, I don't cease to be a regional commander but I don't have control over the forces and the programmes that were carried out in the Transkei, there was a regional commander for the area.  So my area of responsibility started across the Kei.

MR LAX: So it was from across the Kei, South to - how far South did that are extend?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Can you come again?

MR LAX: How far South did that area extend?  As far South as Port Elizabeth or as far as East London?  We are just trying to get a sense of what the jurisdiction was that you had.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: As far South as Port Elizabeth.

MR LAX: And then to the East, how far inland did it go?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Well, it seems as if I'll have to ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, to the West, I beg your pardon, the East is the sea.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: It's seems as if I will have to revisit my geography but I think it should make some sense to you when I say across the Kei up until the former Eastern Cape in as far as the demarcation of this country was concerned during the apartheid era.

MR LAX: That's fine, thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: May I proceed Mr Chairman?  Mr Chairman, I will proceed for the benefit of the Committee, at page 16 of the affidavit, especially paragraph 9.
"I was part of the APLA unit which attacked the King William's Town Golf Club in November 1992.  In respect of this operation I received instructions from comrade Leklapa Mpashlele"
	Can you explain that to the Committee, what does that mean?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I think the first sentence that
"I was part of the APLA unit which attacked the Kind William's Town Golf Club"
is self-explanatory in the sense that it reveals that I participated.  And then in respect of this operation, I received instructions from comrade Leklapa.  
	I mean comrade Leklapa was the director of operations and it is common sense and common knowledge that it should be the person who sanctions the operation if it is an APLA operation.  In this case particularly he sanctioned the operation or he approved the operation, that is what I'm trying to say.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazyo.
	Mr Xundu, I notice that at paragraph 8, immediately before the one you are on at the moment, you say that units were only formed for specific operations.  Was a specific unit set up for this operation?  Would you like to tell us about that?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Not necessarily.  I mean to - why I saw the point being relevant to be mentioned for the consumption of the TRC, was simply for the reason that we - or I put you in light of the modus operandi of the Azanian People's Liberation Army.
	In this particular case it was not a specific unit, in fact it was a detachment, a ...[indistinct] detachment with a full area of responsibility under the capable command of comrade Skumiso Nxunuba.

MR LAX: Repeat the name of the detachment again, you said it quite quickly and I couldn't hear it properly.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Aside detachment.

MR LAX: Thanks.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Aside detachment under the Sobukwe regiment.  That was the landup of the hierarchy by then.

UNKNOWN: Just to go back to Mr Leklapa Mpashlele, as the director of operations you say that he sanctioned all APLA operations if they were APLA operations?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And this is just for my general background information, he would have to know about each and every one of them from the regional commander.  Was that a given, he had to know about them?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I think I'll have to say: "Yes", given the way the command structure was structured.  Right from the director of operations he had two deputy directors.  From the two deputy directors there were regional commanders.  From the regional commanders, regional commissar, area commanders, area commissar, the list goes down.
	Now in the case of Ekudu detachment, in the area of responsibility that it was given, it means an operation that is to be executed within the area of the Ekudu detachment are of responsibility.  The regional commander is playing and the regional commissar, the two of them, the command structure is playing a pivotal role and he reports directly up to the deputy directors or reports straight up to the director of operations.   In that way the director of operations is aware and the operation, if it is and APLA operation, has his blessings.

MR LAX: Just for easy reference, if we look at page 72 of the papers there is a ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman, if we can get an extra copy for the applicant or must he use this one of mine?

MR LAX: Perhaps you could share Mr Mbandazyo.  There is a breakdown of the Sobukwe regiment, I think it's been correctly prepared.  I'm not quite sure on what base it was prepared but are you saying that above that there would then be your area commander, are there your area commanders, district commanders and above that, your two deputy directors of operations and the director of operations?  That is what is not reflected on that organogram, if you can call it that.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  This particular organogram, I don't know whether the SAC, SAP managed to get hold of this thing, but in as far as the operation of King William's Town Golf Club's timing is concerned, this is outdated, this one.  I think ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just point out to us what changed at the time this golf club ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  I think, once again let me run through the structure which existed at the time of the golf club.

MR LAX: Alright.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Right at the top is the director of operations, he had deputy directors.

MR LAX: Alright.  Now let's just do this slowly.  That was Mpashlele right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Then he had two deputies, you've told us that.  Who were those two people, just give us that information.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: It was Bulelane Nxuma and late comrade Skumiso Nxunuba.  But after this golf club, and then there were regional commanders ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just stop.  At the time of the golf club, who was the other deputy?