Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Cash?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How much did you hand over to him, can you recall?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, but it must have been the prescribed amount.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   After the finalisation of the project, there was feedback and report back of what exactly happened?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was it reported back to you what happened as far as the practical carrying out of the project was concerned, and what happened, the way in which it was done?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, it was simply reported that the project had been carried out successfully as prescribed and that nobody had been killed or injured at that stage.

MR P DU PLESSIS: All right, at a later stage you did become aware of the fact that there were some minor injuries, as you also described in your application?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And that information was not available at that, earlier?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, that is true.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I think we can now move to the next issue, perhaps before we get to the "Operation 'Apie'", the baboon foetus project, as far as Calla Botha was concerned, I have already mentioned the White incident and we have already heard evidence about a certain Roskam who was the Chairperson of the student organisation at Wits, whose vehicle had been burnt, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  Mr Botha came with the information and it was taken by the Co-ordinator to the information structures and verified and a pre-study was done by Mr Botha and an "in-house" took place afterwards and the order came that  we should burn his vehicle.

MR P DU PLESSIS: All right, so that was an approved CCB project?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And Mr Botha there acted completely lawfully, in the sense that it was an order from the CCB, in that limited sense?  You did not apply for amnesty for that aspect?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Why not?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't regard that as one of the Commission's briefs to, I don't regard it as a gross violation of human rights.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was that the legal opinion which you got on the point?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: That was in 1991?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Then to continue, the so-called "Project 'Apie'", where did the order come from in that case, to you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The order came from Mr Verster to myself.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So this was not information obtained by Mr Basson or which came from the ground-level?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You say it came from Mr Verster, was it simply an order or were pre-studies also done and "in-houses" conducted, etc?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.  At that stage, I cannot recall the date, but in any event, at that stage, I had been introduced, or I had already been pulled into the Regional Manager's structure and there, particularly their weekly meeting, and Mr Verster, at one of those meetings told me when he discussed his Region's things with me, because each Regional Manager discussed his matters with me separately, he came to me and said "I have the capacity in my Region to help Region 9 with the carrying out of a project".

MR P DU PLESSIS: Who was Region 9?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Region 9 was handled by a man called Anton.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is that a code name?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Do you know what his real name is?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I think I heard it or read it somewhere afterwards, but I think I have forgotten that, but I think his name is known.  He was known to me as Anton.
	When Mr Verster told me that I should get a bottle from Anton containing the foetus of a baboon, well, I wasn't actually sure whether he was serious or not.  But he was.
	He requested me to take this foetus and a number of so-called treated sharp nails and take it Archbishop Tutu's home and we had to utilise these nails, we had to hammer them in a prescribed way and we had to hang this foetus somewhere and he asked if we could assist in this matter.  He didn't ask us, he simply said I should use Mr van Zyl and his infrastructure to do this.
	I then approached Mr van Zyl, I told him about this, and this was a direct order from above, no pre-study, no "in-house", nothing, apparently the matter was dealt with on some other level.  I was simply told "take the foetus, the baboon foetus, hand it over and hang it up."  That was that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is that how you conveyed it to Mr van Zyl?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now we have learnt here that there was evidence from Mr van Zyl, that he himself and Barnard jumped over the wall and actually carried out the project and that he therefore did not utilise his infrastructure as suggested, as proposed.  Are you aware of Mr Barnard's involvement?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was not so aware.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you at any stage aware of any of your cell members having used Mr Barnard's services when they actually were supposed to use the so-called unwitting or non-aware members?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I wasn't, except when Mr Botha and Mr Barnard were seen with Mr White, in respect of the monitoring of Mr White.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Plessis, what was Mr Barnard's connection, if any, with the CCB?  Was he a member?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I didn't know Chairperson.  I only later heard that Mr Barnard was known to the structure, he was also known to Mr Verster and Lafras Luitingh, I don't even know Lafras Luitingh myself.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you personally know Mr Barnard at that stage?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I know Mr Barnard, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   The question is actually, at that stage, did you already know Mr Barnard?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is that now from the Brixton days?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  Mr Barnard was also in the Police earlier.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just check something with regard to Barnard.  We heard earlier that you actually told van Zyl that under no circumstances should he use Barnard, but you say you didn't even know Barnard was being used?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I was never aware that Mr van Zyl had used Barnard, so I wouldn't have told him that.

MR LAX: So you could never have given him any explicit instruction not to use Barnard, because you didn't know Barnard was even involved at all at that stage?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is right, but after Mr Botha and Mr Barnard had been involved in the White monitoring, and they had been identified, it was in any event clear to Mr van Zyl and all the other members that Mr Barnard should not, they should not work with him, they should not have contact with him in the work sense.

MR LAX: The question is, did you specifically say that to them?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: To who?

MR LAX: To van Zyl and the others?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR LAX: Were they just to infer that from the fact that as a result of that Botha had been put on ice?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  I didn't specifically tell Mr van Zyl, previously or prior to that, as far as I can recall, I said "you may not use Mr Ferdi Barnard".  I would like to answer the question later, if I may just refresh my memory perhaps, and - because as far as I can recall, no, it was only after Mr van Zyl's statement was disclosed, that it came to my attention that he had used Mr Barnard.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Perhaps ...

MR LAX: If you are able to refresh your memory or have a clearer recollection in due course, obviously feel free to let us know.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Thank you.