Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja, you will notice that before that particular paragraph, or rather that paragraph starts with the words
"The meeting took the following resolutions".
So it was a meeting of people who understood that there is something known as the Mandela United Football Club and they felt it must be disbanded forthwith and we were communicating their resolution.

MR SEMENYA: No, no I respect that, but I am trying to say that the articulation of the scenario was described in loose terms, now to have the benefit of your presence at that point what was there that you saw that constituted a football team?

FRANK CHIKANE: From my perspective the - I worked on the base there was general reference to the young people there as Football Club, that's how it started in the first place.  Whatever happened thereinafter, you know the group there was understood as such and referred to as such and maybe loosely so but that's how we referred to them.  And that's why we referred to as young people who are in the house etc, and called them Club or whatever, but the point is that from my perspective I was dealing with the totality of the young people who were in that house which was the concern, whatever description they are given.

MR SEMENYA: The concession that I am proposing to get is that there was a Mandela Football Club at that time, maybe a loose description of what was happening there.

MR MOKOENA: Yes it is fair to conclude that way that is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just say I lived in Soweto and the fact of the matter is that if there was no Football Club they really not to have gone on wearing - I think that Mrs Mandela should have said the Club is finished, because we continued to see in the community the same uniform that was worn by these boys around her, and I think I mean the concession you are getting, if they give it, is not valid.

MR SEMENYA: Well Chairperson I am saying with respect, that today as the Commission is sitting we have somebody who is in prison wearing the same uniform and I don't know how Mrs Mandela would make sure that he does not wear this tracksuit.

CHAIRPERSON: I am only saying that for the sake of the community, what people, the perception of people, because it was not announced that now this thing, at least I am not aware of it, and even if it was I think I mean that the most straightforward, the most obvious way of telling the community that this thing is finished would surely have been don't wear things that seem to indicate that we have a football club.  But more than that I think what they were saying really is that it is not good for you that you have got these young people for the kind of reasons that they have given, but I am just saying as it was not just they, it was everybody in the community who believed that there was a Football Club or a Club that had this name.

MR MOKOENA: To try and answer that if you will be fair, would be, as I have said that there was no formal ceremony like in the case where an arms cache is discovered and gets confiscated, gets publicly destroyed and so on, in this case here when the Club did desist from operating and petered out there was no formal ceremony of burning all the uniforms which is what the Chairperson is trying to say.  So it's quite possible as I said that one would observe, one or two people you know in the Football Club outfits like it normally happens in some of the organisations.  It is a symbol.  Like I know I was in SASOL and it was a very long time ago but I am still having a SASOL T-shirt, so it is quite possible and then if I do one or two things that might be traced back to SASOL and then have an impact on that.  So it's a symbol, a status symbol, you know you must understand that it was prestige for these boys to belong to this Club.  It was some of them with dubious backgrounds thought they could class themselves by merely coming and wearing these uniforms, like Cebekhulu for instance.

MR SEMENYA: The point is I think one of the responses was that the presence of the Football Team was a controversial issue, that's what precipitates this, that was there a team or was it, as the Chairperson says, a perception based on the uniform that was worn at the time?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Maybe let's draw an analogy.  We are being referred to in this hearing as the Mandela Crisis Committee, and we are not interjecting at every turn to say don't call us the Mandela Crisis Committee.  Now we can't at all times be saying what was perceived as the team was controversial, the fact of the matter is that we are saying, all of us here as this collective, that we were told there are these activities of the Mandela United Football Club which the community finds distasteful, that is by some members of the community.   So I don't know whether the request is that at all times when we refer to the Football Club we must say what was perceived to be the Football Club.  We can do that if that is the request.

MR MOKOENA: The thing that was so punctilious about appellation I should quickly point out that I am not a deputy speaker in Parliament I am a chairperson of committees in case that is used against me next time you......

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any - Mr Joseph.

MR JOSEPH: May I - my surname is Joseph, I represent Mr Cebekhulu and Mrs Nicholson.  May I read to you an extract which I find in a statement prepared by Mr Cachalia and submitted to this particular Commission.  For the purposes of completeness Mr Cachalia is currently employed by the government of the Republic of South Africa as head of the Secretariat for Safety and Security with the Department of Safety and Security.  There is a four page document ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No it's not been presented, it's just been circulated.

MR JOSEPH: Fine, but it exists.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I have  - no, no, no, it exists but I don't think that it is before us as yet.

MR JOSEPH: I am only going to read one paragraph and you will understand the purpose if I may do that.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not quite certain that I would think that that was fair. I don't think so.  No, no, you can

MR VALLY: I would object to that Mr Chairperson, the persons have submitted their statements to us, they are still about to present it to us shortly after these witnesses and to refer to it in this context is both wrong and it's not in terms of what we are trying to achieve here.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me say no I would want to rule that out.  I don't think that that would be fair.  You can, if you wish to I mean do so after the particular person has presented his document.

MR JOSEPH: ... your Commission in trying to resolve the issues which are before you.  The author of it is a an eminent person and I want to - what I propose doing is to set ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think, I mean I am afraid that I must say no.  I mean ask your question but don't refer to that I think....

MR JOSEPH: During this period of time when these incidents occurred, '88, '89 there was tremendous dislocation in the society which existed in Soweto.  Street gangs were in existence, people were being assaulted by misdirected youth here and there and everywhere.  The lines of communication between the ANC High Command in Lusaka or wherever existed and the people on the ground was very, very difficult.  It was difficult to control people in Soweto from doing things.  Would that be correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: I can't really speak about the ANC from Lusaka controlling people in Soweto.  I think the leadership in Soweto took responsibility for what was happening in Soweto and you will realise that the reference to the ANC were they would be helpful especially with people they were dealing with.  But I was part of the leadership of Soweto, I was in the Civic Association at one stage, we took responsibility.