Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

LEON A MAREE: What I had, I think, is I had a reasonably successful blue plan here and I think they wanted the same thing in Germany, if I could establish the same kind of base in Germany.

MR LAX: But you see you're saying:  "I think this is what they wanted."

LEON A MAREE: Well, there was nothing else given to me Sir, this is what they told me.  As what you've done here, see if you can establish in Germany.

MR LAX: You see it just sounds so improbable that here they would go and spend all this money, send someone to Germany, move your family there and you, the person on the ground, don't actually know what it is that you're setting all this up for.  You're setting it up as the blue plan.  so this was just an extension of your blue plan, without any other guidelines at all?

LEON A MAREE: Nothing at all.  I was to establish myself in Germany as what I had done in Natal and in Johannesburg.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what have safe houses to do with blue plans?

LEON A MAREE: No, this was speculation when you asked me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  So you're saying the only thing you could think of when I asked you what you might be doing in Germany was that you speculated that it might have involved, at some stage in the future, finding safe houses?

LEON A MAREE: No, your question was what did I think somebody could be used for in Germany and as an example I said maybe to get somebody a safe house or something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would it make more sense to you if your version was something along the lines of:  "We had a discussion about where I should be placed in Germany.  It was said to me that the ANC has got an office in Berlin therefore it was suggested that I place myself in Berlin so that we could monitor their activities"?  I would understand your evidence if that had been your evidence.

LEON A MAREE: I can't give that evidence because that's not what happened.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now weren't you sent to Europe to arrange for the import of high tech military equipment?

LEON A MAREE: During the stay in Germany if something like that had to come up, as I testified in the criminal case, then I was to try and acquire that, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Tell us about this criminal case.

LEON A MAREE: I can't remember the accused's name anymore.  There was somebody caught taking currency out the country.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.

LEON A MAREE: And he said the CCB and I in particular went to the Reserve Bank and drew ten million rand or something.  I was responsible for it, so I testified on behalf of the State that this was not the case.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  But did you not give evidence in that case that you were sent by the CCB to operate as a covert agent for the import of high tech military equipment and that to this end you had undertaken a four month trip to six European countries in early 1990?

LEON A MAREE: I did not testify, if you check the record, that I ran an agent in Europe.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me.

LEON A MAREE: I did not testify that I ran and agent in Europe.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I wasn't asking you if you ran an agent, I'm asking you whether you gave evidence to the effect that the CCB sent you to Europe to attempt to broker business deals to purchase high tech military equipment.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They did?

LEON A MAREE: No.  That was my evidence and that was part of the brief while I was there if this did come up, I was supposed to do that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now understand correctly.  You agree you gave that evidence?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But are you telling us now that that evidence might not have been true?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Well if your evidence was true, it follows that the CCB sent you to Europe to try and broker business deals to purchase high tech military equipment.

LEON A MAREE: I can't understand what the difference is.  I agree with this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You agree with me.  Fine.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Kahanovitz is getting to you, was that your brief when you went to Europe or part of your brief was to go and try to broker deals to get military equipment back to South Africa.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, this was not with the initial planting.  This happened at a later trip to Germany.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you ...

LEON A MAREE: There was more than one trip to Germany.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, what year are we talking about when the purchase of military equipment first ...(intervention)

LEON A MAREE: 1990.

MR KAHANOVITZ: 1990.  Alright.  Did you go on a four month trip to several European countries in early 1990?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you broker business deals for the acquisition of raw material for the South African Defence Force?

LEON A MAREE: I tried.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You tried.  Did any of those deals succeed?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: There was still a United Nations Resolution in effect at that stage, as I understand, that weapons could not be sold to South Africa?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words, you were attempting to engage in what has been referred to as sanctions busting?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now ...

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, in the interests of time, what is the relevance of this to the acts for which this applicant seeks amnesty?  I'm only objecting to this just because of time constraints.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do I need to answer?

CHAIRPERSON: He's asked for it, but my understanding is that the evidence-in-chief was led to include the activities of Mr Maree, no only in Namibia but also abroad, to put the whole operation relating to Evans in perspective.  That's what Mr du Plessis said.

MR MARTINI: Sure Chairperson, but there must be relevance to what we're doing here, otherwise we could carry on for ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think if - Mr Kahanovitz, you realise that we are limited with time and we are essentially only concerned with the Gavin Evans operation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I understand that Mr Chairman.  I will - I think the point is fairly obvious, but I'll make it more obvious in a minutes.  Mr Maree, if I can endeavour to summarise your evidence then, up to a particular stage you were sent to Europe to establish contacts to get to know the territory, so on and so forth, but you didn't yet know that one of your functions would be sanctions busting.

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that - in 1989 while you were establishing business contacts and so on and so forth in Europe, you didn't yet know that you would be asked to assist in sanctions busting?

LEON A MAREE: Mr Chairman, the sanctions busting, I wasn't given a specific task to go and do this or do this, in a general brief while I was overseas and I could make contact, I was supposed to do that, but I wasn't given a specific brief,  "Go to this armaments factory and procure arms".

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm just trying to understand why in your evidence-in-chief and why when I was asking you questions to please explain the purpose of your presence in Europe, you made no mention whatsoever of the fact that you were eventually deployed to assist in the procurement of arms and that therefore that was one of the purposes of establishing yourself in Europe.

LEON A MAREE: I don't think we understand each other.  That wasn't the main reason that I was there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your lawyer was asking you questions-in-chief right and you gave evidence about going to Germany and so on and so forth.  Correct?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You remember that?  You were then asked questions, where it seemed unclear to both myself and to the members of the Committee as to exactly what the purpose was of deploying you in Europe, remember those questions?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.