Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

JUDGE MGOEPE: Good, and when you planned it as such in order to get information and you did not at that stage plan the killing or the elimination of this man?

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Good, that is why I say that the killing that was not part of your operation, it becomes a criminal matter.

UNKNOWN: No I do not agree with you, the aim was to get information about terrorists.

JUDGE MGOEPE: The death of this man, the murder of that man, it was still done with a political aim but it was not part of the plan, of this operation.

UNKNOWN: It does not matter, it still stays a political matter.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: But as I understood you, there was no aim at all.  The death was accidental, negligent, culpable homicide.

UNKNOWN: It was by accident.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, you didn't intend to kill him, so you had no political aim in bringing about his death. The death
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was brought about as a result of their negligence in continuing to strangle him.

UNKNOWN: Yes but with the aim of getting information from him about terrorists.  The aim of those terrorists was to overthrow the South African Government.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Brigadier I suppose your statement that you would have denied the assault on the deceased should be considered against the fact that in the past, from my experience both at the side bar and in the bar, in the past, whenever an accused person came to court to say that he had been assaulted by the police, in many instances, the court never believed such a person and the court in fact believed the police when they so denied the assault, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: As I say, in the past, I don't know about now, now I'm a judge I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Yes it did happen.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  Brigadier would it in the circumstances of the Security Branch and its activities have been possible for you to prosecute these people for culpable homicide?

UNKNOWN: No Chair.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Why not?

UNKNOWN: I could not have these people prosecuted in such a case, all the other operations would have suffered under that and been abandoned.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, there was a specific question put to you, you were confronted with the statement that you eliminated him and your reply was that it would have been possible that we would have eliminated him. I just want to
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get your answer to this, I want to get some clarity, did you ever have the intention up to his death, to eliminate him?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The possibility that you conceded to, does that relate to later actions of yours?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Brigadier is it possible that you could have decided to detain him?

UNKNOWN: Yes that is so.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is it possible that you would have been able to question him later in detention as well?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier was it usual for the security police to eliminate people who could talk about questioning later on?

UNKNOWN: No it was not.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The nature of these injuries, were these injuries of such a nature that he would have died from that?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier just to make it clear to the Committee, what is the difference between a limpet mine and a landmine, could you explain it?

UNKNOWN: A landmine, I'm not an explosives expert, but a landmine is used to blow up a vehicle, a limpet mine is much smaller and can be used for many other things.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I want you to explain to the Committee where a landmine is usually planted.

UNKNOWN: In a road under the ground.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And a limpet mine?  Where is a limpet mine placed?

UNKNOWN: It can be placed on any metal object.
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ADV DU PLESSIS: Does a limpet mine work like a magnet?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In other words, Brigadier, a limpet mine can for example be put in a toilet against a wall or any other place, it doesn't have to be put under the ground, or buried under the ground?

UNKNOWN: No it's not necessary.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The further questioning Brigadier, did that take place close to, in the vicinity of the place where the person would have pointed out the houses to you.

UNKNOWN: No it was far away.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, I just want to ask you, the methods used with regard to the questioning, was that the methods used by the security police against activists?

UNKNOWN: Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE WILSON: Does that mean it is the practice of the security police not to question activists in police stations or other such, but to take them out into the bush and torture them?  That is the general practice of the security police, or was it the practice of your unit only?

UNKNOWN: It was the general practice of the security police.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Brigadier, why was it necessary to blow up the body with a limpet mine?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair so that the impression would be created once again, that he was playing with this limpet mine or that he wanted to leave it in the road and that he in this way blew himself up. It was supposed to seem that way, as if he did it himself.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So it's not like a case that we heard before, CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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that the body was blown into several minute pieces.  Did you blow it into several minute pieces or did you only blow it once?

UNKNOWN: Only once.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Brigadier, was it also normal practice of your unit, in particular, to take people to Vlakplaas to interrogate them there, where there were better facilities for this kind of interrogation?

UNKNOWN: Chair, no we did not question people at Vlakplaas, there were usually other people with us, we never actually questioned people there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why was this place chosen in Bophuthatswana, you were from Mamelodi, why could he not be questioned in some dark area in Mamelodi?  Was it a place which you had previously used for this kind of interrogation?

UNKNOWN: Could you please repeat the question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you choose this specific place in Bophuthatswana, you were from Mamelodi where this activist was supposed to point out houses in Mamelodi?

UNKNOWN: It was a very secluded place where we took him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Had you used it before for this kind of interrogation?

UNKNOWN: Yes we had.

JUDGE WILSON: Had you killed anyone there before?

UNKNOWN: No.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Du Plessis is the witness giving further evidence.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions Mr Chairman and I have no further witnesses in this incident.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you, would he be giving evidence in the
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next matter as well?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairman, Brigadier Cronje's evidence in respect of today is finalised.
	There is one other matter which I want to consider, the application, that's the third matter, the matter that happened in Namibia which I discussed with you in chambers this morning and if you would allow me, I would give you my decision tomorrow morning, if we will proceed with that matter or not, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Very well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: So Brigadier Cronje is finished Mr Chairman, I will proceed with Captain Hechter, I don't know if it's a proper time to take the adjournment or if we should go ahead.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

HASSAN MALL: Yes Mr Mpshe, before proceeding with the next matter would it be appropriate to take the adjournment at this stage?  Alright the Committee will take a short adjournment and resume at 11H15.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION