Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: No, well, you see, if I were to suggest to you that in the main, these acts were symbolic acts of opposition to the, primarily to the National Party in which we do not know, except in one or two instances, whether they were intended that there should be loss of human life, but even in cases where there was human life lost, it appeared to be of an unfortunate result of the main act of actually attacking the property.  With one or two exceptions, would you agree with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I do not agree with that, Mr Chairman.  In fact, it is not true to state that.  I am of, just while you are talking I have been going through this thing quickly and I pick up immediately on the 6th of July 1990, a bomb explodes at a taxi rank in Central Johannesburg.  I am sure that the Committee will agree with me that that has nothing to do with the National Party, number one.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I said ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It says further 27 people injured, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I, remember my words, in the main.  I will draw attention to the exceptions.  In the main ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, ...

UNKNOWN: ... do you agree?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... without going through each of these individual cases ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and getting, having the full details, I am not qualified to reply to that question.

UNKNOWN: This was an annexure to your own application.  Did you not apply your mind when you annexed it in support of your application, what its meaning and effect was?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I took it at face value.

UNKNOWN: And what is its face value that you took it at?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, its face value is, Mr Chairman, that the right perpetrated many deeds of violence in which people were killed.  Deed number, 14th of July 1990, a hand grenade attack on a hotel in Roodepoort kills two men and injures 21.  There are many of those and it could be that those details are not included in the other reports as well.

UNKNOWN: I see.  Now, do you know, once it was not the Conservative Party, do you know of any known political organisation that was responsible for any of these acts?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was assured that the AWB had done research on this and they had found that these acts had been perpetrated by the right.

UNKNOWN: The question was, did anybody from the AWB tell you that these were acts committed with the authority of the Afrikaner Weerstand Beweeging?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

UNKNOWN: They did not tell you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, they did not tell me.

UNKNOWN: Very well.  Now, you annexed this and you are relying on it and you talk about the right, the rightwingers or whatever.  The question is that you are unable to tell the Committee whether any known political organisation or liberal, liberation movement or people in the employ of the security services were responsible for any of these acts.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, I took it at face value.

UNKNOWN: Did you know when you did this application that there were people moving around in the 90's who were referred to as the "Brandy and Coke Brigades", people who sat around bars and got drunk and then went out and committed some act of violence or other supposedly in furtherance of some object or other.  Had you ever heard of those people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I have not, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Well, the Committee will hear about them in due course.  You, did you enquire as to whether the act where people were actually killed on the 9th of October, that a bus full of commuters is attacked outside Durban, six people are killed in the attack, which is in relation for an attack on White pedestrians in Durban the day before.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: A retaliation.

UNKNOWN: Retaliation by a group of, well let us first of  all.  Wanton acts of violence committed against White people on the one day and wanton acts of violence committed against Black people the next day on a bus.  That can hardly be on behalf of a political organisation.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was personally aware of the circumstances regarding this specific case, because...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... I was detained at maximum prison together with the three men who were sentenced to death for their part in this ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... attack and they assured me they were AWB and they were acting on behalf of the AWB.

UNKNOWN: Is that what they told you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is what they told me, yes.

UNKNOWN: I see and you cannot tell us whether they were telling you the truth or not, of course?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have no idea, ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: .. Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And I am going to put to you that when you, Walus and we will submit together with others committed this there was no precedent of assassination of a top political leader in the country.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that is not correct.  I am aware of an assassination carried out by the ANC on a member of the KwaNdebele, sorry the Kangwane Government.

UNKNOWN: Well, you may have regarded him a high profile leader, but, well, let us, is that the example you followed?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is the example that I ...

UNKNOWN: Or was it an attack of revenge?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is the example I followed, I am aware of, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: When was he killed?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I do not have the details, but I can provide them, because I have information regarding that.

UNKNOWN: Well, did you follow that example?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I beg your pardon.

UNKNOWN: Did you follow that example, is that it?  Is that a new reason why you tell us you killed Chris Hani, because ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, no that is ...

UNKNOWN: ... someone was killed in KwaNdebele?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not correct, Mr Chairman, I am just contradicting what Mr Bizos has said about no other...

UNKNOWN: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... leading people being assassinated and, also, Mr Chairman, I have testified in my testimony last week, that the ANC, themselves, were even planning to assassinate the whole National Party cabinet.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Derby-Lewis, I think this should be mentioned to you that if you are referring to the assassination of a former Cabinet Minister of KwaNdebele, Mr ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Kangwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Kangwane.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... Kangwane.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think it was Kangwane, but I know there was a Cabinet Minister of one of the self-governing territories.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Maybe we should leave it there, because you are not sure which one.  I was going to, I thought you were possibly referring to KwaNdebele, but if you are not very sure then we should leave it there.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It could be that I am confused between the names of the two ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... territories, but I know that a Cabinet Minister was attacked and assassinated.

UNKNOWN: In relation to any ANC decision, was it not scotched by the leadership of the ANC?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The plan itself?

UNKNOWN: The proposal, if there was one, was it not scotched by the leadership of the ANC?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was, Mr Chairman, but not on moral grounds.

UNKNOWN: Well, this was during the 80's, was it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: But you knew that they did not, well, that they scotched that particular plan.  Let us just leave it at that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: On, but not on moral grounds.

UNKNOWN: Oh, I see, yes.  You say that they had other grounds?  Very well.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: They say so themselves, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I think I testified to that ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... effect.  They say themselves that they were afraid that the struggle would then be taken in another direction.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Nothing to do ...

UNKNOWN: Because ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... with moral grounds.