Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I'm not quite sure what you want from me.  Could you please clarify your question?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, in a war situation, the lives of civilians, not the target?  It is accepted that those lives could during a war be taken or, but they are not really the target.  What do you say about that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, as I said yesterday it is unfortunately in such a case, they call it casualties of war.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but the question is, do you agree with the statement that ordinary people are not the target in a war?  Or they should not be the target.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Unfortunately it did happen that they were the target.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, I think what the legal representative is asking to you is that when you fight in a war, you go for a specific group, you target a specific group, and when you go for this target you, they way you call it also have casualties of war.  Do you understand that distinction?  Let me give you an example, if you go to a school where there is children with the intention that the children would die in that bombing then they are a target but when you go to a school to blow up the building and there were children that you did not know of and they died then they would be casualties of war.  So then you must make that distinction.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, now I understand it.

MS BOSMAN: The question that is put to you is, if the intention was that their target must be anybody or that the people or the ordinary people were killed during this targeting of a certain group of people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I do not really understand.

MS BOSMAN: I suggest that in the light of my explanation of the two differences that you perhaps could just put your question to the witness again.  I don't think that I particularly put that as well to him.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Fourie, I think I can, but, merely repeat the question and I hope you understand it this time.  That it is fair, I accept it that you can talk of the so-called casualties of war, but the point is, there is definitely a difference, I submit, between your actual target and the unfortunate casualty of a war situation.  Do you understand that difference?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I believe Mr Chairperson that if you wanted to create chaos, like I said must happen, then anybody can be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way, let's say there was a decision in the offices of the ANC in Johannesburg to blow up Johannesburg.  That is now the target.  And before a building or in front of this building a group of people walk past.  The target would be the building and the ANC members.  Not necessarily the people who walked outside but we assume that they can be hit in the process of blowing up this building and it is in that light that this question is put to you.  Do you understand it now?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motlaung, can you repeat the question there?

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Do you now understand the distinction between the two?  The actual target and the unfortunate casualty?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words the casualties of war would be the people who walked outside this building or in front of the building, not the building or the people inside the building.  Do you understand?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The message that had to be conveyed to disrupt the election.

CHAIRPERSON: We can deal with that later.  We're not talking about the message.  The question is simple.  Do you understand the distinction?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I do not understand the distinction.

MR MALAN: Mr Fourie if I understand you correctly, then you are saying that the target was anybody it doesn't matter who was hit.  The distinction that the people are looking for here is the unfortunate victims but you did not make that distinction.  You thought that anybody who was killed in that explosion, you did not look for a specific group.  Now the question of Mr Motlaung was, if you chose a school with children, if that was the command or order it had to be done.
	But I think the question was put to you in terms of a policy.  You would not think it would be policy to blow up a school with school children or a church?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: That was the two specific examples.  I'm asking this to you but whoever was hit, you did not care?  I think that was what you wanted.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Fourie, is it your evidence that when you attended some meeting, I'm referring this particular instance to Paragraph 15 of your Application, Page 130.  At the certain meeting there was also these highly placed.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you.  You have it?  Paragraph 15, can you see there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: At the meeting that you are referring to in that paragraph, you were told that the army and the police were ready to assist you in the establishment of the Volkstaat, correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.  That is how it was conveyed to us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you believe it Sir?  What was said to you.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: General Etsabeth said it at the meeting but where we were present at Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever's when we were under the trees, or he repeated what was said by the Generals and to bring it under the attention of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it as follows Mr Fourie.  Is it also true that you believed that in the leadership of the AWB when they promise you that such a Volkstaat would exist, that is now the Generals and the leadership, whoever, over a period of time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you believed them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Now who was this highly placed officer of the Defence Force who was there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: This Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever.  I did not see an officer in uniform but this Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever who was the Colonel of the Special Forces.  I knew that in the South African Defence Force he was involved in the Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank did he have in the Defence Force?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I'm not sure.  I think he was a staff sergeant or something like that.

MR MALAN: Was he still involved with the army whilst this meeting took place?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, I do not know whether he retired from the army.

MR MALAN: I do not know how to switch this off.  I'm not going to ask anymore questions.  Can the technical people just have a look at this?

MR MOTLAUNG: Now Sir apart from the things that were said to you, did I understand you correctly that you were also under the impression that having in mind the numbers that were being mentioned, the six digit numbers about the force that you heard, you were convinced that this was a war that you would definitely win?  No one could come right against you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now Sir, if that is correct, can you explain to me please?  Why would you regard it as being necessary to go beyond the Volkstaat where you can patrol it, make it safe, you know you have the army behind you, you have the police behind you, why would it then be necessary to go outside, I'm talking about places like Germiston, Johannesburg, and attack the people who were there, who are nowhere next to you or posing any threat to you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, we did not yet have a Volkstaat.  Nobody told us this is your Volkstaat, this is where you can stay.