Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR PRIOR: Or did they say to the men there that it was their policy?

UNKNOWN: Well we were carrying on what was told.

MR PRIOR: Just answer the question. Did they ever say positively that it was their policy or are you simply assuming it from their conduct, the smiles and the way they greeted you and greeted the men and treated the men?

UNKNOWN: I think for the General to discuss that manner with me as a Captain would never happen. He had his people that they spoke to, so that line of me going into a General's office and say do you like the idea that I planted a bomb is out.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying from their general demeanour?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You certainly accepted or assumed or believed that they knew?

UNKNOWN: Accepted and believed yes.

MR PRIOR: What was going on.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Sir.

MR PRIOR: There is just one other aspect I need to ask you about.  The Ystergarde, were there any ordinary troops in the Ystergarde because we know that there were either lieutenants or captains?

UNKNOWN: We had what they called candidate officers.

MR PRIOR: Sorry and candidate officers.

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir, that is the lowest form of rank that was in the iron guard, candidate officer.

MR PRIOR: How did you understand it, could you take as a lieutenant now could you give another lieutenant orders?

UNKNOWN: Sir, as a para-military unit as is called the AWB Ystergarde, if we look at the rank structure if I am a Captain and let's say Vlok or whoever is also a Captain and you as Brigadier came to me and told me to do something.

MR PRIOR: Brigadier who? The Wen Kommando?

UNKNOWN: Yes, even a brigadier of the Wen Kommando.

MR PRIOR: Sorry I don't want to confuse the issue let's stay with Ystergarde candidate officers, Lieutenants, Captains and who was in overall control of the Ystergarde?

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

MR PRIOR: So he was the only other rank other than a captain or the captain to give ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: No, no we had Majors, we had Commandant Major, Brigadier.

MR PRIOR: Sorry I was, now it is more clear to me.

UNKNOWN: Okay so out of that structure if one told, if the higher ranking officer told a lieutenant to tell another lieutenant to do something he had to do it because that instruction came from the brigadier or from the major or whoever.  He never questioned that, he had to do it.

MR PRIOR: There seems to have been some confusion of orders filtering down whether it was from a person in the Wen Kommando or the Generals staff passing it on to for example some one like Cliffy Barnard.  A lot of the men or the applicants testified here that they didn't know really who he was accept that he was close to the leader and they didn't know what his rank was.

UNKNOWN: Cliffy Barnard acted like the "Skim". He was underground always busy with something different to what you were busy, so you never knew what Cliffy Barnard was doing only he himself knew what he was doing.

MR PRIOR: But you say he was very close to the leader?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was.

MR PRIOR: So he wasn't just an ordinary office worker?

UNKNOWN: No, he was not.

MR PRIOR: In the head office. He was some one that?

UNKNOWN: He was the trustee of Terreblanche.

MR PRIOR: Did he have recognition in the Ystergarde?

UNKNOWN: Yes because of his rank in the Wen Kommando - look I also had two posts that I filled. In the Wen Kommando ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: What were you in the Wen Kommando?

UNKNOWN: Commandant.

MR PRIOR: A Commandant?

UNKNOWN: Yes, until the decision came through from head office that we had to make the choice of the split, do I want to serve just the iron guard or do I want to serve the Wen Kommando.

MR PRIOR: So if you serve, let me interrupt you there, so if you served only in the Ystergarde you would be a captain?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So some one in the Wen Kommando a commandant could give you orders and tell you what to do or was he not allowed to give orders to Ystergarde?

UNKNOWN: If it was accepted by my chief in charge, Leon van der Merwe, if he went to Leon and said listen we going to use Captain Venter in this and this area is it allowed then I had to take orders from that man yes.

MR PRIOR: But then that would have to be imparted to the men, that the order was approved of by some one senior?

UNKNOWN: Yes, and that was every time said. That is how we accepted Clifford Barnard as our superior officer.

MR PRIOR: I want to ask you just one thing finally, of the 10 applicants that we have with us today, are they all Ystergarde?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Is no one of the applicants that you know of is just purely Wen Kommando?

UNKNOWN: They had posts in the Wen Kommando.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Ja, but not just Wen Kommando no Sir.

MR PRIOR: The people that were called up to and were stationed at the "wildsplaas" in Magaliesberg district were all Ystergarde?

UNKNOWN: Out of us here yes but there was Natalians as well.

MR PRIOR: I will come to the Natalians.  The Natalians seemed to have done very little there that weekend.

UNKNOWN: No they were ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: They weren't chosen to go and through pipe bombs or to go and assist.

UNKNOWN: Yes, they were.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  There was just one other thing.

ADV GCABASHE: Again of the applicants who are here today, how many do you know of were ET's personal bodyguards?

UNKNOWN: Each and every one of us.

ADV GCABASHE: I thought so.  No, no, no except for Mr du Plessis.  I didn't get that impression from Mr du Plessis, and Mr du Plessis?

UNKNOWN: Can I just correct the whole idea here. When Mr Terreblanche went to Durban, there was iron guard protecting him there as bodyguard, when he went to the Cape or West Transvaal there was bodyguards to do that in those areas but out of head office it was myself, Jan de Wet and Mr Vlok that were directly there with the leader.  Okay, we were a couple of other people as well but in each and every district as we travelled for the meetings we had people there.  We couldn't take 10 people from head office there.  We had people in the areas so one or two goes with the leader to a certain area and there we get the other people as bodyguards doing the protection there.

ADV GCABASHE: But are you then saying that every member of the Ystergarde was therefore a bodyguard no that is not what you are saying?

UNKNOWN: They were trained for bodyguards but they weren't always in a bodyguard position. Ninety nine percent or most of the time as a training instructors for the Wen Kommando.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Leading on from that would I be correct in suggesting then to you that the people responsible for the bombings were mainly or exclusively Ystergarde personnel?

UNKNOWN: We served Eugene Terreblanche as his guard, so he picked us specifically for that task, yes it was.

MR PRIOR: Ja, but he never picked you specifically to go and plant bombs, that was your assumption that the order came from him.  You got the order at the "wildsplaas" on the 24th.

UNKNOWN: Now my question is why would it just be Ystergarde?

MR PRIOR: That is my question Mr Venter.  It seems to me from listening to all the evidence that the only people responsible with the bombings were Ystergarde.

UNKNOWN: There was a couple of Natalians of the Wen Kommando, they call themselves special task force or ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Who were they that went along, are you able to name any names?  Were they part of the 26 too?

UNKNOWN: Yes, in the court there were 5 or 6 of them.

MR PRIOR: Alright, I don't want to leave the Committee with the wrong impression that it was only Ystergarde from Ventersdorp that were ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: No, there was Natalians involved.  There were 5 or 6 of them involved in the court case itself. There were a couple of them that got sentenced as well with us.

MR PRIOR: But they haven't asked for amnesty?