Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

MR P WILLIAMS: And that the weapons were later found by Bellingan and it was supposed to be collected and used as evidence that were being attacked?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: And you also mention in paragraph 23 that you bordered a helicopter later on.  Can you tell the Commission what was the purpose of that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not know how to explain why I bordered this helicopter, because according to me, if I was an attacker, you, in the ...

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that.  The interpretation did not get that.

MR P WILLIAMS: Can you please repeat what you said?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to my knowledge I did not know what was the reason for me to go on this helicopter.  I could, there was no reason why should I board a helicopter to search for people who had already run away, because it would be difficult to find those people.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, would you say that it had any sense in using the helicopter and circulating the area?  Was there any sense in doing that, according to you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to me, there, a lot of time had already passed after this incident.  It would not be easy to find whoever managed to run away.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, subsequent to this incident you made an affidavit.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I wrote a statement.

MR P WILLIAMS: What happened to the statement?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Bellingan told me that my statement was unacceptable and he redrafted it and it was typed and I signed it and it was certified by Major Brits.

MR P WILLIAMS: And is it correct that you have testified in previous court proceeding and commissions of inquiry relevant to this matter?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: And in those proceedings you told lies?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it was all lies.

MR P WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Commission why did you lie at that stage?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: My commanders instructed us to change all facts.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, what you are saying is that your commanders at the time told you to tell lies?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: Did you get any reward for this particular operation?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I received R1 000,00.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, can you recall when was this R1 000,00 given to you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: We were handed this money in Koeberg.

MR P WILLIAMS: Before this operation or at ... (intervention).

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, sorry Mr Williams, the question was when they, when did they receive this R1 000,00 and the answer was in Koeberg, but when in Koeberg?

MR P WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Miller, Judge Miller.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: After the Guguletu operation.

MR P WILLIAMS: Was that on the same day or subsequent to that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It was not on the same day, just a few days after the event.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, did you participate in this event or did you shoot this particular person, because you know that you were going to get a reward?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: Did you know beforehand that you received
R1 000,00 or any monetary award for your action?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, it was a wonder, because it was all in the delivery of the daily duties.

MR P WILLIAMS: Did you get the reward before this, before this incident?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, it was the first time.

MR P WILLIAMS: And did you act for personal gain or out of personal malice or ill-will or spite in this matter?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: If you must tell the Committee today and the public, why did you shoot this particular person?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I shot him following instructions from those in command.

MR P WILLIAMS: Today you are testifying here before the Truth Commission and you know that there are families of the deceased and, possibly, the family of the victim that you shot.  How do you feel towards the families today in, for what you have done?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I believe what I have done has hurt a lot of people and I request the parents and the family members who lost all their beloved ones to please pardon me and the country at large.

MR P WILLIAMS: But at the time of this incident how did you view the ANC?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: At that time, as a policeman, the ANC was an enemy.

MR P WILLIAMS: And is it correct that at that stage you regarded them as terrorists or ...?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.  (end of tape 2A).

MR P WILLIAMS: How do you feel about the ANC today?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I have accepted the ANC as the correct regime and I will serve it and the county and the citizens as well.  It is not similar to what we were being doctored about that we would look like third world countries should the ANC take over.

MR P WILLIAMS: Do you believe, do you today believe that the ANC, at that stage, were fighting for the liberation of this country?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: At this stage, yes, I do, because we can clearly see the fruit of what they were fighting for and today we have got a Constitution that we did not have at the time of the apartheid regime.

MR P WILLIAMS: Are there anything else that you wish to say at this stage before I stop?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I would plead for forgiveness from the parents and the families and I am prepared to meet them one by one to ask for forgiveness, if they allow me, thank you.

MR P WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, that concludes Mr Mbelo's testimony for today, with your permission.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the agreement, we will now adjourn, rather than get mixed up in two cross-examinations at the same time.  I gather nine o' clock is a little difficult for some of the persons present.  We will adjourn till 09H30 tomorrow morning.

MS PATEL: Will everyone please rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS