Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-29

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I will say that what happened, have happened.  However, I would like to say that I would like to ask forgiveness from his family.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, committee members.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Motaung, who was in charge of this operation?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Mandla was in charge.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before you could go out with the other three was there any meeting held by your organisation to discuss and plan this operation?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I think Mandla, as a Commander, he might have discussed the operation with other people whom I do not know.  It was that it was an underground operation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you not one of the leaders in the area at the time?  If I remember in your affidavit you stated that you would bring people to train and you even put some of them under your command.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now can you explain why you could, why you were not involved or summoned by Mandla to that meeting wherein this whole thing was being planned?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I would say I just took an order which was given to me, because I thought they have thoroughly discussed the issue.  I just only took the order from them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You mean you took the order to take the life of a human being just on what you thought could have been done?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, that is correct.  The way they have explained to me, I thought there is a valid reason to do it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was Mandla's actual position?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: He was a Commander.  I am not sure exactly, but he was a trained Commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, who was the local Chair of the ANC in that area at the time?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I do not remember well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Had you ever attended an ANC meeting in the area before the carrying out of this operation, as a Commander that is?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I use to attend meetings, the Youth League meetings and the meetings for the organisation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, who was the Chair at those meetings?  Who was chairing those meetings?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It was Lamon Ngabie.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This area where, this area of Edendale, did you live in that area yourself?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I was born in that area.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know the deceased, Lombo, yourself, personally?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I only knew him after he was pointed to me during the carrying out of the mission.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, I am going to refer to your affidavit, a certain portion of your affidavit, page 15 of the papers, paragraph 19 thereof, the second line.  I will read for convenience of the witness.
"On 27th October 1990 Rita and Mandla came to my home and informed me that they wanted me to carry out a mission.  They told me that there was an IFP warlord by the name of Arnold Lolo Lombo who was active against the ANC.".

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, you were told by these people and you went out and carried out this operation.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I was told and they first went to point the person to me and I saw the person on that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you telling this committee that on what you were told, without yourself, as a Commander, ascertaining the facts and whether it is actually this person was what he was said to be, you went out and killed him, on hearsay?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I just took what they told me, because I trusted them.  I knew that they will not tell me some trivial stories.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your evidence, further, you testified to the effect that Lombo had killed many, a lot of ANC members.  He thought he had a licence to kill, he was harassing the community.  Can you tell us the people that he may have killed that you know?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I knew two people whom he killed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who are they?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: One of them is Bongani, Bongani Bopela.  The other one was Themba who died there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And these, I believe, you were also told?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I was told by people who were present at that, at the scene.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, the people you first mentioned, Rita, Mandla and Sipho Maloko, what are they doing?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Sipho Maloko has been killed by the gangsters in the security forces.  He has passed away.  Rita and Mandla, I have last seen them long ago.  I do not know where they are.  I last saw them when coming back from exile, 1994.  1995, I am sorry.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, you went out to carry out this operation.  By killing Lombo, in your own mind, what did you seek to achieve?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I did not have anything in mind to achieve.  However, I intended to kill him, because if we went, when we went to the police to report issues which might have occurred to the ANC people, police did not take that into mind.  So, I thought it is proper and justifiable to kill him, because the police could not do their job.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do I hear you to be saying that you killed him in order to make the police respond to your reports to them? What I am driving at, what was the reason of killing him?  What was behind all this?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It was because he harassed a lot of ANC people, he killed a lot of them.  So, we decided we shall remove him, eliminate him.

CHAIRPERSON: Had complaints been laid with the police about his behaviour, do you know?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, a lot of people have given reports to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: And did anything happen as a result of those reports?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Nothing happened.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was any report being made to the higher authorities of the police about this?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I did not do it personally, but Mandla told me other people have given a report.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No further questions, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miranda.

MR MIRANDA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MIRANDA

MR MIRANDA: These people that informed you about Lombo's attacks on ANC members, exactly what did they say to you?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: They told me he is a warlord. Most of the time people were forced to join Inkatha and those who were not Inkatha members will be beaten.  Since I was not staying over the hill or above, so I heard it from other people telling me about it.

MR MIRANDA: What did they tell you?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Mandla use to give, brief me about the situation, because he use to stay at that area.  So, he use to come and tell us about what is happening and also the activities of this man.

MR MIRANDA: Was Lombo, sorry Mr Chairperson.  Was Lombo, when he was shot, was he facing you and talking to you?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.  I got into the store and took him out.  I told him I was investigating a particular case and that I was a policeman.  I told Sibisi that when I open the docket, Sibisi shall shot him and we have to make sure that when he got shot, nobody, no bystanders will be shot at and that is what happened, with one bullet and he fall on the ground and we left the scene in a hurry.

MR MIRANDA: How far away were you, how far?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: We were so close, as I said, he shot him point blank.

MR MIRANDA: And what injuries did he sustain that you could see?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: We did not have time to see what might have happened, because we were in a hurry to escape.

MR MIRANDA: And when Sibisi shot Lombo, was Sibisi standing behind Lombo?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Why talking to him holding the docket, Sibisi came from my back.  I told Sibisi that when I open the docket, the person, while the person is looking at the docket he shall shot at him.

MR MIRANDA: Was Sibisi behind you or behind Mr Lombo when he shot Mr Lombo?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: He was between me and Mr Lombo.

MR MIRANDA: So, when Mr Sibisi fired the shot he could see, Lombo could see what was going to happen?