Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MR MALAN: How did you act, that was the question that I asked in the beginning?  Did you shoot back or did you shoot first on occasions?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We shoot back.

MR MALAN: Then, the second issue that I want to canvass is the division between the SDU and the Youth League.  In your evidence in chief again you said that in the beginning they were part of the SDU, you were patrolling together.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And at some stage they became divided, that was your evidence.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: You said they then became independent of you.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, they left us and they became independent.

MR MALAN: So they were patrolling by themselves in some areas?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now we have evidence from some of the witnesses, on paper at this stage, saying that the Youth League at the time was patrolling sections A,B,C and D and that the SDU's were patrolling E and F, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, that is not true.

MR MALAN: Now how did you patrol separately, was there not a geographical division?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The SDU patrolled the whole of Moleleki, all the blocks were patrolled by the SDU.

MR MALAN: And the Youth League, did they have their independent patrols also in all the blocks?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know whether they patrolled, I do not know of their patrol.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the structure, in Katlehong you have various sections such as Moleleki, Twala and others, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then within each section there are blocks.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The SDU's and the ANC Youth League patrolled different sections or different blocks within the sections?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chair, are you referring to the SDU in Katlehong in general or the SDU in Moleleki?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, firstly in Katlehong and then in Moleleki.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge, the people who patrolled were the members of the SDU, the Youth League was under the control of the SDU.  I told you already that on my arrival at Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling but thereafter the SDU was formed.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, I just want you to deal with the period after some members but not all members of the ANC Youth League decided to break away from the SDU, do you remember that stage?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I remember that stage Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: At the stage when some members of the SDU decided to bread away from the SDU, did those members of the ANC Youth League who broke away from the SDU patrol the township?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After they separated themselves from us, I mentioned yesterday that they started their criminal activities, robbing of taxis, taking people's properties, shooting at bakeries, taking targets.

CHAIRPERSON: But were they doing that under the pretext that they were patrolling the township?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would say they shielded themselves with the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which organisation?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: When they engaged in these activities, how did they justify them?  Did they say the were patrolling or did they claim they were protecting the community?  We do note that, I think you told us yesterday, that at some point they killed Majosi who was the member of the Communist Party I think.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct and his two cousins.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when they did these acts, did they claim to be protecting the community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was difficult because if we asked them, say for instance you approach a PAC member and you ask him, then the policies would differ, now there was a problem already.
	The executive went to them to ask them why they hit Majosi, they said they were sorry they thought it was Inkatha.  Sir, if you look carefully at this issue they always hit at a person who has a tuck shop.  They would hit that person and rob him of his money.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MALAN: If members of the Youth League would be saying that they also independently patrolled A,B,C, and D blocks, would you dispute that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would not dispute that.  I told you that they were doing their own things but not under the SDU.

MR MALAN: No but Mr Motlokwa, I said that this was after - in terms of your evidence, they became independent.  My question was, after they became independent, did they further patrol parts of Moleleki?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I told you that we patrolled the whole of Moleleki, we have never met them patrolling.  We were the only people patrolling Moleleki.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not know though whether - what the activities that they engaged in, were engaged in, in the process of their patrolling the areas that they claim to have been patrolling at the time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Can you repeat your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: After some of the members of the ANC Youth League had broken away from the SDU they were no longer subject to the discipline of the SDU leadership.  I think you told us that they began to engage in criminal activities.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no knowledge of the fact that they were patrolling the township?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We discovered that there was a rumour, it looked like they were patrolling with very small children but to my knowledge they were not patrolling.

CHAIRPERSON: So, if they claimed that they were patrolling certain blocks within Moleleki for example, they may well have done that but that was not under the auspices of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: There is that possibility.  Maybe they patrolled, the SDU didn't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: The last issue is, there was a question whether there was a meeting to reconcile and you told about the meeting that was called by central and the Youth League was there and that you were suspended for three months and your arms were taken away, confiscated.  Why were you suspended?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, if you talk of peace you must leave behind the arms.  We were suspended for three months pending the investigations as to the cause of the conflict between the ANC Youth League and the SDU.  After three months the suspension was lifted and we went back but it was difficult for the ANC Youth League to be suspended because during our suspension some of our members were attacked.

MR MALAN: Who patrolled Moleleki in the time of your suspension?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Central sent people.

MR MALAN: Was there no action taken at that stage against the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the decision to suspend you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The decision was taken at central.  There was a meeting that both parties be suspended and be disarmed and they took our arms and we were suspended for three months.  After those three months we were given our arms back.

CHAIRPERSON: But this suspension only affected those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The aim of the suspension was to suspend both the ANC Youth League and the SDU.  As the members of the SDU we handed in our arms but the ANC Youth League did not hand in its arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the members of the SDU who were suspended - in other words were all the members of the SDU suspended?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Including those who patrolled other sections?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Moleleki section only.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought so.  So only those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section were suspended?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.