Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-06-01

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, why was it so essential for you to investigate the R4 1/2  million robbery incident and to use people to infiltrate the Fidelity Guards, what is the reason for that?

MR GERBER: As a member of the National Party I throughout acted in a bona fide manner, not only in the interests of the Fidelity Guards, but also in the interests of the South African economy, because these assaults were aimed at our economy.  My contacts with the Security Forces, which was both at a grassroots level and  at a very high level, was of very high quality and I decided and realised we were dealing with people who meant business and I acted in accordance with statements made by the National Party at that stage and  I was part of a team, I was a small cog in a big organisation.  The Police Security Forces etc., we wanted  to prevent at all costs that terrorists could take over the country.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, did you believe that there was a possibility of such a takeover of power by the ANC/PAC?

MR GERBER: Yes, I believed that.  Maybe I can just mention at this stage that my sources, the sources which I used, were so afraid that they would be seen in my presence, seen  to be negotiating with me, that I at one stage was driving around with R40 000 in my car to compensate these people whenever I met them at the places that they determined.   At no stage did I do anything for personal gain.  I constantly and throughout believed that I was acting reasonably.  In my capacity at Fidelity Guards and as a member of the National Party and as a citizen of South Africa I believed that I was acting reasonably in the battle against these terrorists.

UNKNOWN: Did you at any stage act against Samuel Ranaka
from personal malice or hatred etc.?

MR GERBER: No, under no circumstances.  Black people were my friends, they were my most important sources of information.  I would have protected them with my own life.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, during the robbery during  which the R4 1/2  million was robbed, were any members of Fidelity Guards killed?

MR GERBER: The person who was working the safe was shot dead.  I don't quite know.  They gained access to the door, I don't know whether they knocked or rang a bell, we  couldn't ascertain that, but he was shot dead in the door.

UNKNOWN: How could access have been gained to the building in the absence of internal help?

MR GERBER: I was very closely involved with the security installations of this building, it was an old building, in the central of Hillbrow.  We performed every possible precautionary measure, for instance, monitors, security gates etc.  It was just not possible for anybody to just walk in there.   They had to have had inside help.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, as far as the investigations are concerned, the Fidelity Guards and the South African Police, was there cooperation or what was the position?

MR GERBER: Yes, constantly and at a very high level.

UNKNOWN: And specifically the investigation regarding the involvement, the possible involvement of the PAC?

MR GERBER: Yes, I had constant talks with  the Security Branch not only in Johannesburg but throughout South Africa.
I had constant contact and talks, negotiations with people on a very high level, but also at a grassroots level.

UNKNOWN: The way in which investigations were done by  Fidelity Guards in conjunction with the police, what was your view of this?  Were you part of the police, were you separate  from the police?

MR GERBER: Well, as I've said, I saw myself as a small cog  in the bigger State machinery as a result of our liaison with these people.  At one stage in 1990-91 one of the biggest crime actions was launched in Johannesburg.  My unit was contacted to assist in this crime-combatting action and I served on the Planning and Coordinating Committee of the Police.  In order to plan this operation, it was held on a Friday evening, magistrates were present, they monitored the whole procedure, and it was a great success.  And that's where I once again realised how close we really were in the combatting of crime.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, was that operation known as Operation Watchdog?

MR GERBER: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, why would the police protect you if Samuel had been taken to the  police in an  injured  state having been assaulted?

MR GERBER: I think as a result of our connections and our very close contact and liaison through the years.  I did not want to place them in a position where they had to protect  me.

UNKNOWN: Could you tell us why that would happen?  You said you wanted to take Samuel to the police station.

MR GERBER: Yes, we would have done that.

UNKNOWN: But the injuries  were not so serious that it would cause panic or embarrass them.  The injuries to his ankles were so slight.  Why did you shoot Samuel, the deceased?

MR GERBER: I realised that if we let him escape with a serious shoulder injury and he reported it that we would be in great trouble.    There was tremendous pressure on  me from the Trade Unions, as I have already mentioned.  I notified everybody whom I could notify.  I wanted to resolve the matter, I did not want to injure him or kill him,  although I was prepared to torture him.

UNKNOWN: What would have been the importance, significance of gaining information from Samuel, in what connection was this important?

MR GERBER: To arrest these members of the liberation organisation would have been a great loss to them and a decided gain for the National Party.

UNKNOWN: You mentioned Colonel Eugene  de Kock's name.

MR GERBER: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Was there any stage at which you received ammunition or anything which was connected to Eugene de Kock?

MR GERBER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the Commission about it?

MR GERBER: There was a very well-known gang in the Port Elizabeth area, Mcala Gang, they operated in that area.  About a month ago the gang leader was arrested.

UNKNOWN: What is its name?

MR GERBER: Mcala Gang.   They were a grave threat, not only for our company in Port Elizabeth, but also for other institutions in the area.  My colleague had an informer to whom the area was very well-known and we decided in respect of Julius Xhosa and Jack Mgwana(?) and this informer, to send these three people to Port Elizabeth.  At one stage Oosthuizen came to hear of this and he decided to sell certain bullets, AK47 bullets especially loaded with a substance known as RDX so that upon firing the AK47 it would explode.  Brig Van Wyk decided also that AK47s had to be transported with one of our company cars to Port Elizabeth and I said no, this simply could not happen.

UNKNOWN: At that stage was Brig Van Wyk still in the police or was he a member of Fidelity Guards?

MR GERBER: He was my direct head.

UNKNOWN: So he was no longer  a member of the police?

MR GERBER: No, he wasn't although he still had close contact with the police.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, it might be an appropriate time for  a tea adjournment now, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The Commission will take a short adjournment and we will resume at 11.30.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

HENDRIK GERBER: s u o

UNKNOWN: What inference did you draw from the fact that you in the Fidelity Guards premises after the big robbery, the fact that you found these Chinese stick grenades and AK47s, and the AK47 shells in the car.

MR GERBER: (The interpreter cannot hear the witness;  his microphone seems to be off)

UNKNOWN: So, Mr Gerber, at that stage these Chinese stick grenades and the AK47 arms, were these things freely available?

MR GERBER: No, they were not freely available.  Very few of  these things reached us at that stage.

UNKNOWN: Now according to your knowledge, who used these kind of weapons?

MR GERBER: The ANC, the PAC terrorist organisations, they used them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, could you tell the Honourable Commission, the political climate reigning at the time, did that influence you at all?