Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR LEBEA: I feel much better now.

CHAIRPERSON: May I then remind you that you are still under oath?

MR LEBEA: Yes and thank you.

TITUS LETHOHONOLO LEBEA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi are you through?

ADV SANDI: Yes, when we adjourned we were at the stage where I was still asking the applicant about the report he said he had given to Mr Happy Mphahlele.  Do you remember that Mr Lebea?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall.  I was a little bit confused.

ADV SANDI: Do you remember when we adjourned we were at the stage where you had just said to the Committee you gave a report to Happy Mphahlele, do you remember that?

MR LEBEA: Let me remind you Mr Lebea, before you commit yourself to anything.  At first you said you gave to Letlapa Mphahlele, the report and the question that followed thereafter you said the person we gave the report to was actually Happy Mphahlele, just to refresh your mind and I think it will be taken from there, but it would appear if I listen to you that when you said you were not feeling okay, you wanted an adjournment and I'll ask my colleague to start again from there, so that we have better answers when you are lucid.  May you start from there, don't say this is what happened because he says at that stage he was confused.

ADV SANDI: Okay.  Did you give a report to any person about this attack?

MR LEBEA: No.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you say you gave a report to Letlapa Mphahlele?

CHAIRPERSON: He was confused.

ADV SANDI: What is your answer?

MR LEBEA: Because I was injured and I was in the hospital, I gave nobody a report.  On my release from the hospital, I went to prison.

ADV SANDI: At the time you committed this attack, were you aware that APLA was attacking and killing farmers?

MR LEBEA: It was an order given to us to do.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, listen to the question, Mr Lebea.  The question is, whilst you were in hospital, APLA cadres were attacking farmers and killing them.  Are you aware of that?

MR LEBEA: May you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: Let me try and summarise all the questions I was going to ask you and ask them in one form.  You say ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the interpreters require a moment so that the system is corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could the interpreters talk so that we could hear whether it's coming through.

INTERPRETATION: And Chairperson the witness just ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I follow because I have tuned into Sotho channel and what he's saying to the applicant is that the sound might just be too much if it comes to both ears, so he must close one of his ears to get it right.  I would add and say, if you look at your gadget, on the other side there is the volume.  Adjust that volume to suit your ears.

MR LEBEA: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Let me just ask you one question and put everything together.  Why did you not kill the van Tonders to pressurise the Government of the day to listen to what you've referred to as the cries of the African people?  Why didn't you just kill them in the same way that other APLA cadres were doing in other parts of the country?

MR LEBEA: I believe the situation would have determined whether we killed them or not, but I've explained already that it was to instil fear in them so that they can move away from that area.

ADV SANDI: Did you  personally agree with the killing of farmers by APLA?

MR LEBEA: No.

ADV SANDI: Why not?

MR LEBEA: I believe I explained initially that they were selected as targets and it would depend on whether they are killed or they are not killed.

ADV SANDI: I don't follow this.  Anyway I'll just leave you.  Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I want you to look at page 5.  I've asked you earlier about a fifth person being involved and you said no, only four of you were involved.  Towards the middle of paragraph 21
"After a thorough reconnaissance I came to the conclusion that it will be attacked by a unit of 5 armed with one AK rifle and a knife."
Who would have been the fifth person?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I decided that the unit will be formed out of 5 people, but there was no 5th person according to the situation. We attacked, four of us, but during the reconnaissance and according to that area and according to the plan, 5 people were envisaged for the attack.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How many people were in your unit?

MR LEBEA: 4 people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, you've been a Commander of a unit, isn't that correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did your whole unit consist of 4 people, or more than 4 people?

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain is that in our unit we were 5, but during the commission of this act, we were 4.  The decision taken was that it will be 5 people to form this unit, but at the commission of this offence, it was only 4 people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you persist that Paulus Masitsa, he didn't go with you to the house, and didn't enter the house, he wasn't with you that evening at all.  Is that correct, or was he with you but he didn't enter the house?

MR LEBEA: Paulus Masitsa was not part of this at all.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You hadn't seen him that evening at all?

MR LEBEA: I did see him, but he was not part of this.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you see him?

MR LEBEA: We saw Paulus Masitsa at his home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So before going to this house, you went to Paulus's house?

MR LEBEA: I would say so, yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What was the purpose of going to his house?

MR LEBEA: The purpose was to wind time and they were selling drinks and cool drinks and beer, so we just went there to cover the time, so that we could go for our mission.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja, but the fact that they were selling cool drinks and liquor and beer, what has this got to do with this case?  Did you drink anything there?

MR LEBEA: They are not related.  We just used his home as our place of stopping by on our way to the area.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was he staying on the same farm as the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: I would say he was living close to that area.

CHAIRPERSON: To all the legal representatives, I tender apologies from the Panel.  I should have advised you earlier that we would - the Panel would also ask questions, but if there is any re-examination it would cover everything, but that doesn't exclude you to traverse some of the questions asked by the Panel.  Mr Lebea, you were injured.  Where were you injured on your body?

MR LEBEA: I was injured here.

CHAIRPERSON: From your left-hand side?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this AK47, the 9mm, the knife, but as you were testifying you spoke of a panga, where did you get this weaponry from?

MR LEBEA: These weapons were received from the APLA Commander Themba Ncapai.

CHAIRPERSON: When because at least we know that on the 10th of February 1991 you had them, when did you receive them from Themba Ncapai or when were they given to you by Themba?

MR LEBEA: These weapons were given to us early in January.

CHAIRPERSON: So when did Themba Ncapai identify the farm of the van Tonders as the target?

MR LEBEA: I bear no knowledge to that.  I don't know when did he identify them as targets because what he did, he gave us the weapons early in January.  Around the 15th of January, I only knew about the target.  It was around the 15th when he told me about the target.  When he identified the target, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: When he initially gave you the AK47, the 9mm, let's call that the weaponry, was it before you were told about the identification of the target?

MR LEBEA: He first told us about the target.

CHAIRPERSON: It's because - I just want to get clarity on which came first, the identification of the target or the handing over of the weaponry, which took place first?

MR LEBEA: What I'm explaining is that he told us about the target before giving us the weapons.