Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do I infer from that that on each occasion on which I asked Mr Burger "Is such and such a sentence in your statement untrue" and he said "Yes, it is untrue", you agree with all the answers that he gave?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Let's go to page 36, paragraph 8(b) you're asked ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what page?  It's page 34 on my documents.  8(b).

MR KAHANOVITZ: ... the capacity and period which you were in the service of the State, or served in the Security Forces, in number 2 you say that you were in Special Forces: Co-ordinator, 1987 to 1991.  Is that meant to be a reference to the time that you were in the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But as I understand the evidence you left SADF Special Forces in order to join the CCB.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So therefore that isn't correct, it's not correct to say that you were in SADF Special Forces between '87 and 1991?

WOUTER J BASSON: The CCB was a branch of the Security Forces.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But all the evidence has been, and your evidence as well, that at a particular moment in time it was converted into a civilian organisation.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And that you had to leave the SADF, to break off your ties with the SADF in order to join that civilian organisation, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, you had to resign.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's right.  What year did you resign from the SADF?

WOUTER J BASSON: It was around 1988, I cannot specifically recall the date.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So between 1988 and 1991, you were not in Special Forces.

WOUTER J BASSON: I was in the CCB, which was a branch of the Special Forces.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  I don't necessarily agree with your answer, but I'll deal with it in argument.
	Now at page 35, paragraph 9(b) you were asked to say whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage as a result of your acts or omissions, and you know that the answer that you gave there is wrong and I accept, having read your application, that you set out in your application that there were in fact both injuries to people in the Early Learning Centre blast and you say in your application that the bomb blast caused damage.   You with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So why, that being so, did you fill in the answer "No" at page 35?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot say at this stage why it states "No", there was definitely the damage of property at the Early Learning Centre.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then at page 37, paragraph 11(b), it asks you to state the particulars of the order, the date if known and the name and the address of the person who gave the order or approval, then you say that you got an order from the Chairman of the CCB, Joe Verster, that's quite obviously wrong, 'cause as I understand it the Chairman of the CCB was Gen Webb.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Similarly the statement below that, that Gen Webb is the Director of the CCB, that's also wrong.  Correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How could you possibly have made a mistake like that?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, there was no specific reason why I made this mistake or why I would like to have made this mistake, it could be that it seemed correct at that stage and I accepted it and read it as such, but if you look at the hierarchy you would say that a Chairperson is a person who is a Chairperson of a group of people and then that person directly resorts under a Director who is above that person, but in the CCB's language the General was the Chairperson and Joe Verster was the Director-General or the CCB.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then page 42, paragraph 2 you say
"I was a member of the CCB and in that capacity I was the Co-ordinator of the internal region of the CCB, namely Region 6."
Correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were also at a time, the Co-ordinator of Region 7, correct?  Zimbabwe.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were also at a time, the Co-ordinator of Region 2.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why do you make no reference to that in your amnesty application?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I'm sorry but at this stage I did not know what was going on, I was led and I read through this application and it seemed to be correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You'll agree with me, anybody reading that paragraph would get the impression that your only job was Co-ordinator of Region 6?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now when you deal with the Early Learning Centre, pages 43 through to 44, this information to the effect that the Kewtown youth was planning to start a big fire in the Khayelitsha squatter camp, you with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Top of page 44.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now your evidence thusfar has been that normally you verify your information via Chris Nel, did Nel verify this information?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, if I can recall correctly, Chris Nel was not informed about the Early Learning Centre incident.  I cannot recall specifically why, if he was not available or not, but if there was not a person with whom I could verify this information, then Verster would then contact Webb.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So when was the first time that you heard that this plan to start a fire in Khayelitsha was part of the motivation for the Early Learning Centre blast?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot specifically recall, but it could be that in the presentation of Verster to Webb, that it was mentioned there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were there?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.  I cannot specifically recall if I heard it there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I thought you never ever went to those presentations.

WOUTER J BASSON: Except for this presentation, I was there, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh, I see.

WOUTER J BASSON: I mean I was never there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You think you heard about it them, or you...?

WOUTER J BASSON: The information did not come from Mr van Zyl.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, that's what he says.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if I understand your evidence you say 'Well, I must have heard it somewhere and the only place that I can think I could have heard it was at the presentation to Webb'?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz.
	So why wouldn't he have heard of it earlier?  Wouldn't you have had any dealings with Mr van Zyl regarding the Early Learning Centre operation prior to the actual presentation of the pre-study to Webb?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, Mr Chairperson, Mr van Zyl came with other information, it was written information, it was typed and people signed it, I cannot recall who signed it, and there it stated certain plans to disrupt the elections through certain actions, but specifically the planned arson was not part of that information that I received from Mr van Zyl.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why was an exception made here for you to attend the meeting with Gen Webb?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I cannot specifically say why it was different, a possible reason could be that with the upcoming elections and the information was of such a nature that we had to act very quickly, where at that stage I was involved in the presentation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I don't understand the connection between the two.  Why if urgent steps had to be taken, would you come to the meeting?  What role could you serve there, what function?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I cannot specifically say.  I was at the scene where Mr Burger did not pitch up and we had to look at what we had to do and the mechanism that had to be prepared, maybe they thought to involve me so that I can continue with it.  I cannot specifically say why I was there coincidentally.