Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, sir, it is the one that is typed, the second one that I was supposed to have submitted.

MR NTONGA: Is it not correct when I say that this application that you are making before this Commission, came about because of that application by Mr Bandazayo, because it was put in before the time expired, after the cut off date had been extended?  Isn't that so, that is why you are here today?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I do not follow your question, it is quite long sir.  And I don't follow it now.

MR LAX: I will put it very simple for you.  You are here today because of the second amnesty application which Mr Bandazayo had filled out for you, and which he made on the 7th of May, just prior to the next cut off date for handing in of applications to be made, that is why you are here now.  Amongst other small things, that is the main reason?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, I don't think so that  it is the one that led to me being here today.  I think the one that led to me being here, are the applications we made through Mrs Collett.  Because the one that was made by Mr Bandazayo, is the one we told Mrs Collett to collect from the TRC, because we did not know what Mr Bandazayo had filled on our behalf after he had made us sign those forms.

MR NTONGA: The application made by Adv Collett, which was made some time in September if I am not mistaken, referred only to one incident of the ambush of the minibus, not to the most serious cases against you, which you had been convicted for and you were facing, namely the convictions at the East London Supreme Court and the pending high case in Bisho.
	Who did those, if not Bandazayo?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I do not know if you are telling me or asking me.

MR NTONGA: Who did that, if not Bandazayo?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, things connected to Mr Bandazayo, from the time we saw, discovered that Attorneys of the PAC are short of truth, we became uninterested in what you do, even if it is right.  We cannot see that it is right, because you had hurt us a lot.
	It may be that it is according to what you are saying, that the application made by Mr Bandazayo let to me being here, but as I am sitting here, I don't believe that.

MR NTONGA: What makes you not believe that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is because you have done a lot of wrong things to us, you ran away from us at the Supreme Court at Bisho and when I later asked you, why did you leave us in the Supreme Court, when we were supposed to go in, you said you did not see us.
	Mr Bandazayo in prison, got there and made us sign a form hurriedly, saying that he was supposed to leave only to discover that the form says we do not want to be represented by Ms Sally Collett.
	Those are some of the wrong things you were not supposed to have done, being members of the PAC doing to other PAC members.
	Now, all the other good things you were doing, we could not believe in or trust.  Even the things that Mr - went to go and say to Dumisani Ncamazana's mother that you sons have sold out, even if they go out of prison, they are going to die, they are not going to get amnesty.  I don't accuse him now, that he knows about it.
	Even the squabble we had, or the altercation we had in court, and you told us that you are going to represent us and we told you that you are not going to be representing us, why did you want to represent us while as you said, we must not stand trial, and go to the TRC?

MR NTONGA: Are you finished Mr Mbambo?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, I have.

MR NTONGA: I will give you a letter which, I will ask the leader to make copies of.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, I have.

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairperson, it is a letter from the Amnesty Committee acknowledging the new application submitted by Mr Bandazayo, on behalf of the applicants in respect of the Supreme Court case in East London, for which they are serving, as well as the forthcoming Bahai Church case in the Bisho Supreme Court.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, the applicant is asking me certain questions, as to how I've got the letter.  I don't know whether I am entitled to tell him that, to perhaps assist Mr Ntonga.  I don't think there is a dispute about this really.

MR NTONGA: I was just telling the applicant that in truth and in fact, he is here today because of the application by Mr Bandazayo.

MS COLLETT: No, I don't have a problem with that.  What I am saying is the letter that you have just passed, I have in my file already.  He is asking me how I've got the letter.  I am asking permission to explain to him how I got the letter, if anybody has got a problem with that.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I have the letter from the Truth Commission itself.

MR NTONGA: Can I proceed Mr Chairman?  Is it also not correct Mr Mbambo that the application by Mr Bandazayo, which is typed, uses annexures as compared to the application where you filled in longhand, it means that documents were attached to the application, just like the confession you have made, do you agree with that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I agree with that, but I am sorry sir, you know, sir I would like you to listen, you must not play shake your heart, as you are PAC Attorneys and instructed by the PAC to help members of the PAC to apply for amnesty, I want to ask you how come that after having received such a letter, you did not come to prison and show us and now you show me, trying to prosecute me with it?
	Please tell me again, who is it, or which member of the PAC did this, did the same thing you did to us, and again turn about and trust you when you do things and believe that you are doing the right things for them.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't want to necessarily curtail what the applicant gives by way of testimony.  We are not going to finish the enquiry if he is allowed to ask Mr Ntonga questions.
	I am sure the matter could be, maybe dealt with on a different basis, maybe by way of getting Mr Bandazayo to come to the Commission at a later stage.  But it certainly serves no purpose that the applicant asks questions of Mr Ntonga while he is cross-examining him on issues, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: I agree, don't you think so Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: Yes, Mr Chairperson, maybe it can simply be resolved by admissions that can be made between the parties.  I have the documentation in my file, which he is aware of and Mr Ntonga obviously has the same documentation in his file, because it is what I've got.
	I don't think that this is serving any useful purpose at this stage, this is not what the whole Commission is about.

CHAIRPERSON: As a matter of interest, who was this sent to?

MS COLLETT: Who was what sent to?

CHAIRPERSON: The document that you have in your file, which has just been produced?

MS COLLETT: The letter that Mr Ntonga had, was a letter that was sent to him, but when there was a change of legal representatives, I requested a copy of all the documents from the Truth Commission, and they sent me back a letter annexing that, and the applications, and that is how I came to have them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I wasn't querying your possession, I was wondering whether they didn't also send a copy to the applicant because we haven't got the front sheet which would have indicated who it was sent to.

MS COLLETT: No, it appears that they sent it to me.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The affidavit, sorry the confession attached there to that application, was attached and it contains as you say, some lies, maybe some truths, but it was admitted in the Supreme Court, is that a fact that the confession that was annexed to the application, was a document which was properly admitted in a court of law so there is nothing sinister about it?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Which Supreme Court sir?

MR NTONGA: You know very well, East London Supreme Court where it is admitted.