Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Lax my instruction is that the said person, Godfrey Shiya, who is present here today, he is actually not sure as to the exact dates.

MR LAX: Well then how can you put it to this witness if he's not sure?

MS MOLOISANE: He is not sure as to the exact date but he is sure that it was early in 1992 when he left the country, and he is also sure that he returned, he spent almost a whole year in Lesotho and only returned in January, early in 1993, but he does have documentary evidence in the form of the passport, which, if this Committee needs, he will be in a position to produce.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, I understand.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously he didn't know that he would be implicated so he couldn't have come with his passport today.  Had he known he probably would have been able to.  Proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: The second applicant, John Radebe, bears no knowledge of this incident that Sissy told you about.  What is your comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He knows it.

MS MOLOISANE: Did Sissy tell you if she laid any charges against Radebe and his friends?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They were threatened, that is why they did not lay charges.  That was after they took them and slept with them.  They did not lay charges.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you that Sissy never laid any charges against John.

MR LAX: She said she didn't lay charges.  She's already said that no charges were laid.  She has already said no charges were laid.  So, it's no point putting it to her, she's agreed with you that no charges were laid.

MS MOLOISANE: No, I want to tell her the reason why no charges were laid against John Radebe and his friend.

MR LAX: Please continue.  Sorry I just thought you were going to be putting it to her that no charges were laid, as opposed to the reason why no charges were laid.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct).  You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is wrong with the microphone.

MR LAX: She keeps switching hers on and it switches yours off.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't it operate simultaneously?  It's better that way because I may actually want to intervene while she is talking.
(pause for adjustment of microphones)

MS MOLOISANE: My instruction is that no charges were ever laid against them because no such incident ever took place.  What is your comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I agree no charges were laid.  They did not go and lay charges.  And it's because they were threatened.

MS MOLOISANE: And it is also my instruction that Sissy did not tell you the truth.  All that she told you was not the truth concerning that incident, or the alleged incident.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Sissy would not start such a topic for no reason.

MS MOLOISANE: Now during 1991 were you not thirteen years of age?  Were you not thirteen years old?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, I was.

MS MOLOISANE: And it was during that period that you say you were staying with your boyfriend, Johannes Masime.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: That is so, get to the point.  What is it that?

MS MOLOISANE: Now my instruction is that during that time you were too young and you did not stay with any boyfriend at your home.  Ms Moloisane we are here to deal with offences which are politically motivated and not to deal with how people conducted themselves morally.  Whether one decides to stay with a boyfriend when she is twelve years of age or eight years of age it is none of our concern.  I don't know what would be the probative value of that kind of evidence that you are seeking to elicit from Ms Mokoena.  How she decides to conduct her sexual life, it is not our concern here.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Now let's go to the incident when one Skosana visited your home.  Is it not so that this Skosana that you have referred this Committee to was one of the unit commanders in Zone 12 Sebokeng?  Is that not so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I knew him to be a comrade, whether he was involved in units I do not know.

MS MOLOISANE: Now I put it to you that Skosana was in fact a unit commander of one of the SDU's in Zone 12.  Now why did you flee when this Skosana asked your granny about your whereabouts?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I ran away because I knew what he was doing in the township.

MS MOLOISANE: But you knew him to be an ANC member.  Is that not so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.  He was an ANC member, but he was notorious, even though he was an ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: It is my instruction that Skosana came to your home after he had learned about your involvement, or alleged involvement, with IFP men.  What do you say?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know the reasons why he came to me.  I only ran away because I know that he was not choosy.  He just killed.

MS MOLOISANE: I further put it to you that the reason why you fled through the window was because you knew that you were one of the IFP spies and that he would question you about it.  What is your comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is not true.  Skosana took girls and slept with them.  He would come to your home, abduct you, and sleep with you.  I ran because, had he found the two of us, he would have killed the policeman, take me, used me, and killed me afterwards.

MS MOLOISANE: Where was your friend Johannes Masime at that stage?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He was working night shift.

MS MOLOISANE: So if I understand you well, the comrades, or the ANC members, knew where to find Johannes Masime.  They knew that he would be at your home if they wanted him, is that not so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Which people?

MS MOLOISANE: ...(indistinct)

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: In other words, if they wanted him because of his being a policeman, they wouldn't have had, or they wouldn't have encountered any problems in locating him.  Is that not correct?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you told this Committee that most of the time you were with Hapile.

MR LAX: She said most of the time Hapile was with her.  Just a difference in emphasis.

MS MOLOISANE: Most of the time, Hapile was with you.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, we would have time together.

MS MOLOISANE: Now if that is the case, how did it happen that you not be arrested when Hapile was arrested?

MS THABETHE: Objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what are you objecting about?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I think it was the evidence of Ms Mokoena that Hapile was staying elsewhere at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Let Ms Mokoena respond to that.  She will be able to do so.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.

ELSIE MOKOENA: I was not arrested because in 1992 I was pregnant and I was staying at home and Hapile and them stayed where they were arrested.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, my instruction is that you were never targeted by the SDUs or by the comrades, because of your affair with, your love affairs with a policeman, Johannes Masime.  You were never targeted because of your involvement, or because of your love affair with Johannes Masime.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Let them explain then why they targeted me.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, I'm still coming to that.  It is my instruction that you were targeted, you and Hapile Ndumo were targeted because you were IFP spies.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Those were hallucinations.

MS MOLOISANE: Is it not so that your boyfriend Johannes Masime was never at any stage attacked by the comrades or by the ANC people or members in the township?

MR LAX: That's been her evidence to date.  He's never been attacked.  He continued to live with her even after this incident.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Mr Lax.  The reason why I'm highlighting this is because I want to further put it to her that the reason for her attack was simply not because Johannes Masime was a policeman, and that is why Johannes Masime was himself never attacked by anybody, despite his staying in the township.