Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

JUDGE MGOEPE: What troubles me is whether you did stick to 
the mandate?  Were you told to eliminate the shop and the 
business, which is something quite distinct from the house?

UNKNOWN: No, this is a mistake.  The order was to 
destroy the house.  There was no attempt to burn down the 
house - ag, pardon,  the business.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It is not just one word that we are dealing 
with here, we are dealing with quite a number of points.  A 
shop and a large business, you in fact even described the 
business, shop and business, described as a big business or 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

JUDGE MGOEPE: 103

UNKNOWN: something.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, there was only one business on the 
premises. There was only a shop.  There was no garage or 
whatever else.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you see when you initially compiled your 
application you knew that the people were killed in the 
house, isn't it?  You knew that the people were killed in 
the house.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now how could you have by accident have 
omitted also to say that the house was also to be attacked, 
and instead only mentioned the shop and the business?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, but just at the end of this paragraph 
it is mentioned that it was used for a liaising house.  It 
might have been the case, but we never attempted to destroy 
the shop.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am trying to understand the basis on which 
you could possibly have made this kind of mistake when you 
compiled your application.  How could you have forgotten to 
mention the house, when in fact you knew then already that 
the people were killed in the house.  How could you have 
forgotten also to mention that the house was also to be 
attacked?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, we sat late at night in drawing up 
these affidavits.  We had to take it to the police the next
morning.  It could have slipped in there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well let's see what you mean, are you 
saying that you were also, you were instructed also to 
eliminate the shop and the business?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, what I mean here ... 
(intervention).
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 104

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, can I please come in here.  
You will see on page 71, specifically - specifically in page 
71 there is a clear distinction between the house and the 
shop; explosives were put in the house and the inhabitants 
were shot in the house, nobody knew who was in the house.  I 
was inside the premises and I looked into the shop to see if 
there were not people there.  So he draws the distinction 
there later on.  I just want to point that out in all 
fairness Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I know that, I know that they attacked the 
house, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, but the line of 
questioning, with respect, was that he never mentioned in 
his application the house. I just wanted to clear that up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No.  No, that is not the line of my 
questioning.

UNKNOWN: Yes, then I misunderstood.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Initially I did so, but my attention was 
drawn to the fact that he did mention the house.

UNKNOWN: Yes, then I misunderstood it.  Thank you Mr 
Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.  Now I am going back to page 69.  You 
said that the shop and business were to be eliminated.  Or 
do you want to delete that or that whole portion?

UNKNOWN: If the Committee would allow me, I just want to 
reiterate, what I meant was this is a business premises, 
with one shop on it.  It was only one shop where food and 
other things were sold.  There were no other businesses.  
The shop and the premises with the shop on it, is business 
premises and next to that was a house.  I expressed myself 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

JUDGE MGOEPE: 105

UNKNOWN: wrongly.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, well that will leave us with a shop, 
that there was a shop, isn't it.  Now I am asking you 
whether your instructions were to attack that shop or 
whether we should also cancel, delete the shop as well, and 
leave only the house.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, no, we only had to attack the home or 
the house where the people ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: And the shop and the business are all a 
mistake.

UNKNOWN: ....  where the terrorists might have 
been....(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: They should not have been here.

UNKNOWN: We weren't ordered to burn down the house, 
there was no explosives - there was only explosives for the 
house.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you sure that this is a mistake, wasn't 
this actually the order that you go and blow up a shop and 
instead of blowing the shop you people deviated and then 
attacked the house?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, the order was Kahn, the house and 
terrorists.  The people there had to be eliminated, the 
house had to be blown up. It was never said that while you 
people are going to attack the house, others had to burn 
down the shop.  That was never said.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well I've noted your point, you are you 
saying that all this was a mistake and we could just as well 
delete that, but I must tell you that I cannot understand 
how you could have made this kind of mistake.

HASSAN MALL: Can you recall who conveyed to you precisely 
what you were supposed to do, what you were supposed to 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

HASSAN MALL: 106

UNKNOWN: destroy?  Who told you precisely, was it De Kock, was it 
Ras?

UNKNOWN: No, it was De Kock.

HASSAN MALL: Was he conveying his remarks to you personally 
or to the group as a whole?

UNKNOWN: At the farmhouse there was a quick meeting and 
it was told to me, if I remember correctly, you and 
Andronowitz must stay behind all the time, to make sure that 
we are not being pursued or attacked from behind.  I was on 
my way there and I stayed behind all the time and the same 
on our way back, I stayed right at the back.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  No, I am concerned about the instructions 
as to what was to be destroyed, when that was being told, 
was that told to you personally or was that told to the 
group that you are going there to destroy this, that or the 
other?

UNKNOWN: No, it was given to the group that the house 
had to be attacked, terrorists and Kahn had to be 
eliminated, we had to set explosives.  If I remember 
correctly the explosives were set in the main bedroom and 
then we left the area.  But we were never told you, you and 
you must shoot the children. That was never said.

HASSAN MALL: No, I wasn't thinking about that.  I know what 
you were told that you and Andronowitz were to stay behind 
or follow from the rear.

UNKNOWN: No, there was a group meeting beforehand.

HASSAN MALL: Yes I heard they had a group meeting, their 
instructions were that you were going to destroy certain 
things.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: When you left Vlakplaas you didn't know what 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

HASSAN MALL: 107

UNKNOWN: you were going to do. Is that it?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson.  At Vlakplaas we were told 
that we were going to jump the fence into Botswana and that 
there was a house which the terrorists were using.  So we 
knew we were going to operate in Botswana.  That we knew.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you told that after the operation you 
were going to go and establish an alibi?

UNKNOWN: No, as I said, that morning after we finished 
and we came to the farmhouse, we decided we would go to 
Richards Bay to constitute an alibi. That was told to us 
then.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the clothing to go and 
create your alibi in Richards Bay?  Here you were all 
dressed in dark denim clothing, which would have stood out 
like a sore thumb in Richards Bay, wouldn't it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair,  but as I testified earlier, at 
Vlakplaas if you left to go and do a job you sometimes were 
absent for two or three weeks.  So we always carried clothes 
with us, other, a change of clothes. We only put on the dark 
clothes there on the farm.  For the rest we had normal, we 
wore normal clothes, we never wore uniforms.