Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : In that court you testified Mr Chairman andmembers of the Committee, I'm referring to the attached courtrecord where the magistrate was imposing sentence, page 8 thereof.  Mr Chairman and members of the Committee I'm going to read fromline 6 of paragraph 1.   In court Mr Jackson you said the following,this is the summation of the magistrate
  "You stated that the deceased ran away and you shot athim three times in succession."
Do you hear that?

ANSWER: Yes I can hear that.

<UNKNOWN>: : He was running away when you shot him?

ANSWER: Yes that is what I said in the Supreme Courtbecause I was trying to protect myself because I didn't know maybeor the way I was heading to because I had killed a member of theSouth African Police Force, that is the old South African PoliceForce.

<UNKNOWN>: : You gave the Committee an impression that youwere never on good terms with the deceased because he once pointedwith a finger and he had a "haelgeweer" and he threatenedto shoot you, do you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes I can remember well sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : On the record page 7 Mr Chairman and the Committeethe Court summed your evidence as you having said, paragraph 2,as you having said that, paragraph 3 thank you, second sentenceor line 2 thereof, he summed up as you having said that
  "Yourself and the deceased were friends and you used tovisit together regularly."
Do you remember?

ANSWER: Yes I can remember although I started by tellingthis Committee that I was told here that I must tell the truth,the whole truth, here I'm telling the truth but at the court whereI was, that is the Supreme Court, I was lying because I was tryingto protect myself. [Applause].

CHAIRPERSON: : Why should you clap when a man says he waslying, please allow him to finish.   Yes please carry on.
EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Were you also lying Mr Jackson when you said,still on the same paragraph Mr Chairman and members of the Committee,when you told the Court that there was never a problem betweenthe deceased and yourself before, were you also lying?

ANSWER: Sir I said when I spoke here when I was at theSupreme Court giving evidence, I was trying to protect myselfbecause I thought I would get a lighter sentence because I didn'tknow what I was supposed to do because by then we had the operativegovernment, I didn't know what to do, I felt it was better tolie to the Court.   Maybe this lies would help me to get out oftrouble.

<UNKNOWN>: : To save time could you just say yes I was lyingor no I wasn't lying because I'm still going to continue.

ANSWER: I was lying.

<UNKNOWN>: : Then you were further lying to the Court whenyou said you and the deceased were at a tavern?

ANSWER: Yes I admit that I was lying.

<UNKNOWN>: : Then you were further lying when you said tothe Court that the deceased insisted that you go with him to drinkfurther?

ANSWER: Yes I do agree that I was telling the lies.

JUDGE WILSON: : In between there, there was also accordingto the judgment evidence given by Matsoso about a dispute betweenyou and the deceased in the tavern.   Was Mr Matsoso also lyingon your behalf?   Do you remember you gave evidence and you saidit wasn't Matsoso it was Teboho who intervened, do you rememberthat?

ANSWER: May you please repeat your question sir?

<UNKNOWN>: : Matsoso had given evidence about trouble betweenyou and the deceased, do you remember that evidence, in the bar?

ANSWER: Yes I remember that evidence.

<UNKNOWN>: : You explained that it wasn't Matsoso who intervenedbut one Teboho, do you remember telling the judge that?

ANSWER: Yes I remember sir.
EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Jackson what did you achieve politicallyby killing this man?

ANSWER: Sir I won't say that there is anything I achievedby killing this person that is politically, but I think even ifit can happen that the community of Masilo complain about anythingregarding their rights, I don't think that there would be troubleamongst such people.   I say this because I have killed the deceased.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman we will not callany further witnesses in support of this application.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman in respect of the next of kin tothe deceased I want to record as follows that the wife to thedeceased, a Mrs Dtsele(?) has been traced in Welkom, she has beeninformed of her rights and Mr Chairman the intention was to makeher be present when the matter is called and the overtime wasnot foreseen by myself.   As a result thereof I was not in a positionto cause her to be here within an hour's time.   I have her contacttelephone number at home in the event the Chairman or membersof the Committee would like her to be here tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: : Have you not consulted with her yet?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I have not consulted with her,she was contacted by the investigators.

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : But she is available in Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Mpshe I think in strict compliance withthe provisions of the Act and the fact that she may have claimsagainst the Reparations Committee and so on, it would be appropriatethat she be afforded an opportunity to be present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman then I would requestan adjournment for the day Mr Chairman, I will cause her to behere tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: : Just before we adjourn, gentlemen can we resumeat 9 o'clock tomorrow?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : For me it is possible Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: : I think that this is the kind of case wherethe facts are not particularly involved, we ought to be able todeal with your addresses immediately after the witnesses havefinished giving evidence.    On that understanding we will adjournuntil 9 o'clock tomorrow.   This inquiry for today comes to anend, we are now going to adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
TAPE 10 DAY 4 - MR SEGOPA'S EVIDENCE IS GIVEN IN SOTHO ANDNO INTERPRETER FOR THE FIRST HALF

MR SEGOPA: No I wasn't asleep, I was just in the house,thank you.

MR MATSE: PE:   You were at home and you had someone or somepeople screaming the words Inkatha?

MR SEGOPA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What do you know Inkatha as?

MR SEGOPA: Inkatha is an organisation that used to killpeople, I used to hear that over the radio that Inkatha is killingpeople and I was threatened to hear them, they were around bythen.

UNKNOWN: What standard did you get to at school?

MR SEGOPA: No I didn't attend school.

MR MATSE: PE:   When you heard about this Inkatha organisationover the radio how - did you know whether Inkatha was a politicalorganisation or a Christian organisation or a football organisation?

MR SEGOPA: I heard it was an organisation that foughtagainst other organisations.

MR MATSE: PE:   You mean an organisation that thought ...(in-tervention)

MR SEGOPA: No I mean they fought against political organisations.

MR MATSE: PE:   Who did you hear they were fighting against?

MR SEGOPA: They were fighting against the ANC.  They werekilling the people who belonged to the ANC so that they can rulethem.

MR MATSE: PE:   Now this organisation called National Partydid you know about?

MR SEGOPA: Do you mean the National Party?

MR MATSE: PE:   Yes.

MR SEGOPA: Yes I know that organisation.

MR MATSE: PE:  By then did you know who was the leader ofthis organisation?   Who did you know as the leader of this organisation?

MR SEGOPA: No I didn't know who the leader of this organisationwas.

MR MATSE: PE:   This National Party organisation how do youknow the people of the National Party, do you know what colourscheme they wear?

MR SEGOPA: Yes they were White people, and some of themwere black.

MR MATSE: PE:   Now this Inkatha organisation, you alreadysaid you knew Inkatha as a political organisation what colourwould you say were Inkatha members?

MR SEGOPA: There were many people and their organisationalso had White people in it.