Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They were supposed to die because in war people die.  We were struggling for liberation and by any means people would die.  That many people would die in that kind of an incident, mainly those who oppressed our black people during the previous government.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing to say.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.
	Sir, I just want to ask you a question related to yesterday's information given by Mr Khotle, if I pronounce it correctly.  Do you agree with the evidence or the statement of Mr Khotle yesterday, when he told the Chairperson that amongst other things the order also was to kill anything that was alive in the store, or words to that effect?  Do you agree with his testimony yesterday to this effect?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Was this your specific instructions, or what were your specific instructions regarding the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I don't understand your question Sir.  Will you please repeat it?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll gladly do so.  What exactly were your instruction which you received from your commander regarding the supermarket at Wesselsbron?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The instruction I received is to drive the car, to take the participants to the place of the incident.

MR STEENKAMP: Before I turn to your amnesty application itself I just want to ask you another question.  Did anybody at any instance give you any orders to attack the white communities, did you get such orders from anybody?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That kind of instruction was not given to me, it was given to those who were my seniors.

MR STEENKAMP: You have never received such orders, am I right?  Is that what you are saying?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Well maybe you can help me.  I want to refer to your amnesty application, page 3, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, and specifically to paragraph 11 2(b), page 3 Mr Chairperson.
	Do you have it Sir?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: I just want to read what you've actually said there and maybe you can comment on it.
"Intensify the armed struggle and take it to the white communities.  The order was given by Sabelo Pama, Pasia Village, Umtata, Transkei"
What does this mean?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I see it.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you comment on that Sir, because according to this paragraph it seems to me that you got certain orders to take the armed struggle to the white communities, isn't that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: But why did you deny it?  When I asked you the previous question you denied it.  Why did you deny it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: You talked about - you are not talking about the paper which is in front of me.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you understand my question Sir?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: I specifically asked whether or not you had any instructions to attack the white communities and you said no.  According to your own application it seems ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't your question follow on immediately after your first question, which was: "Was an order given to kill anything that was alive"?  And he agreed with that, and then you asked him about orders to attack the white community.  Wasn't his attention specifically drawn to the day in question?

MR STEENKAMP: I agree Mr Chairman, there can be some misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood you were asking him what instructions he got on that day.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, the attack on the supermarket, can you indicate to the Committee exactly what the reason was for, your personal reason or the reason you thought to be for attacking the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The reason for attacking the supermarket was the struggle for liberation.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I refer you to your amnesty application, page 2.  This is under paragraph 9 (a) 4, with the heading there reading: Nature and Particulars.  Do you see that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I read this to you?
"We entered the Wesselsbron Supermarket whose owner was Chairperson of the AWB.  On entering there were five of us.  We shot all the white people who were inside indiscriminately.  We did not remove any articles from the supermarket"
Are you saying that the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the AWB, is that what you are saying?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Because he was white I would say that.

MR STEENKAMP: Why didn't you include this testimony in your evidence in chief, that the Chairperson according to you, the shop owner at least was the Chairperson of the AWB?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was an AWB member because he was white, because the struggle was directed against white people.

MR MALAN: Mr Tshoane, the question was: "Why did you say he was the Chairperson of the AWB"?  If we heard you correctly you were saying: "Because he was white".  Is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Well am I white or not?  The reason why I'm asking this, I have a white skin, am I the Chairperson of the AWB?  You see your answer doesn't make sense.  Won't you reconsider and give us an answer as to why you say that individual was the Chairperson of the AWB?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: At that time when we committed this incident we were directing our struggle against white people.

MR MALAN: Yes, the question is, why do you say that the owner was the Chairperson of the AWB?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I would say that because in many instances, according to the information we gathered, gathered by members of APLA and PAC, the AWB used to assemble in that place.

MR MALAN: Would you look at that answer of yours again in the application form.  You are saying that the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the Afrikaner Resistance Movement, AWB.  The owner was heading up the party of the AWB.  There are a lot of white people in South Africa, they're not all the Chairpersons of AWB, why do you say he was the Chairperson.  Did you write it or did someone else tell you to put it in there?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That's what I wrote.

MR MALAN: Ja.  Who told you to write it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Nobody told me, I did it myself.

MR MALAN: Now the question is, do you have an answer as to why you say he was the leader of the AWB in that area?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: According to the information we gathered he was the one who appeared to be the Chairperson of the AWB.

MR MALAN: You say the information you gathered, "we gathered".  Did you get that information yourself, and from whom did you get it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I was informed by our regional commander who is Mr Khotle.

MR MALAN: Did Mr Khotle tell you that this owner was the Chairperson of the AWB?  Is that your answer?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, that is the person who said so.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard his evidence didn't you?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't say it only once in your application.  If you look at paragraph 10(a) at the bottom of the same page, you again say that
"The political objective was to carry forward the armed struggle waged by the PAC/APLA at the time.  As the supermarket was owned by the local Chairperson of the AWB and frequented by AWB members"
Yes, I see it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were giving this as the main political reason for the attack on this place?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Mr Khotle tell you this?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He told me on Friday, let me say, ja, that is Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the day of the attack?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it, when was the attack?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was on the night of the 3rd of July 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what day was that?