Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: When we arrived there inside the house, she said she trusted and hoped that we understand exactly what we have to do from the guy that we were with because she knew him very well and said she hoped that we had every information with regard to that.
MS ?: Did she give you every information with regard to that or was it assumed that you knew it all?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: She assumed that Botha had already given us all the details with regard to that issue.  Because we started while we were discussing the money issue.
MS ?: So, everyone was satisfied, Mrs Mandela at the meeting was satisfied that you knew all the details.  You were satisfied that you knew all the details and the only concern that you had was the financial issue?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.  The prime thing was money and that is the very thing that motivated me.
MS ?: So you knew who you had to kill, did you know why you had to kill  him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.  We did not know.
MS ?: So if I understand you correctly, you didn't have many details, you didn't know why you had to kill him, you perhaps knew you were going to get a gun that you were going to kill him with and it wasn't clearly confirmed as to what the actual reason was that you were going to kill him?  You didn't, it was assumed that all the details had been given to you?
 With this in mind, with hardly any details, no promise of money being given to you, a woman that you say in your statement you did not trust, you were quite prepared to go out and kill a man you didn't even know?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.
MS ?: With hardly any details, you say that you didn't know whether you were going to get paid properly, you didn't trust Mrs Mandela, that financial issue hadn't been clarified, the details had been assumed.  Mrs Mandela assumed you knew who, what and why you had to kill.  Maybe Mr Botha hadn't given you all the details correctly.
 The details of a murder of a prominent man was going to take place and everyone was assuming details had been clarified with everybody else, no no details had been clarified, you didn't have any promise of getting paid, you didn't trust this woman and yet you were quite prepared to go kill a man for no reason.  No reason had been explained to you?  Do you understand?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I understand.  May I answer?
MS ?: Please.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The thing that attracted me was money, and motivated me was money as I was unemployed at the time.  All  the other details did not very much matter to me because I did not know ... (intervention)
MS ?: It was alright to go kill a man then?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Please repeat what you have just said?
MS ?: So you were quite prepared to go kill a man for R20 000-00 even if you didn't know if he was a good man or a bad man?  The motivation was R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you could start finishing up please, I think you have made your point.
MS ?: Who was it that was supposed to go and identify himself or register at the Doctor's surgery?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It was Mbatha.
MS ?: According to Mr Mbatha's statement, he says that you asked him to do him a favour and he asked you to go inside and book for him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.
MS ?: Were you meant to book initially and then you asked Mr Mbatha to book for you instead?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.
MS ?: Why?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It is because I did not have an ID.
MS ?: According to Mr Mbatha, neither did he.  Did you know that you had to give a thumb print?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was not aware of that.
MS ?: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS ?: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairman.  One question.  You have already given evidence that Mr Richardson was not involved at any stage in the commission of this offence.  Is that correct.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And any suggestion to the contrary is rubbish, is that also correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, it is correct.

MR RICHARD: Nothing further, thank you.

MR RICHARD: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Nothing further, Deputy Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Nothing further Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your, I beg your pardon.  I wish I could see the panellists, like I can see the rest of you.  I was hoping to avoid them - not really.  There are some questions now from the panel I assume.  If I am going to start from that side, Dr Mgojo?

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask my question in Zulu because these statements are confusing Thulani Dlamini.  I do trust and hope that you understand what I mean when I say they are confusing.
 What I don't understand is that the only reason why you wanted and agreed to murder a person that was not known to you, for money, is that so?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: If it was said that the person who was supposed to be killed, was your brother, what would you have said?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: What attracted me as I said, was money, as I was unemployed at the time.

KHOZA MGOJO: To the extent that you agreed to kill a person that was not known to you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I told myself that when that person is being identified to me to kill, I will kill.

KHOZA MGOJO: You mean any other person that you would have been shown?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: It is apparent that you got a firearm.  Did you ever use a firearm before?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I was taught by one of the people.

KHOZA MGOJO: When did that person teach you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: In 1987.

KHOZA MGOJO: You arrived here knowing how to use the firearm?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I learnt how to operate the firearm in 1987 and load it with ammunition.

KHOZA MGOJO: Where in Ngoma or here?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: At home.

KHOZA MGOJO: I am referring to what I heard you say because you are talking in Zulu and I understand Zulu because I am a Zulu.  You say the motivation factor here was not only money but you trusted also Botha.  You trusted Botha and how long had you known Botha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I knew Botha since I was a young boy.

KHOZA MGOJO: You trust him even to date?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: You mean Botha?  I don't trust him since that incident.

KHOZA MGOJO: You went on ahead and said you were not quite used to Mbatha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I wasn't.

KHOZA MGOJO: Why was that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We were not quite close, I knew him from a distance.

KHOZA MGOJO: By the way remind me about Mbatha, do you have one mother or are your mothers' sisters?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, our mothers are sisters.

KHOZA MGOJO: They come from one home?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, they come from one home and they were born of one woman.

KHOZA MGOJO: According to what you think, you killed Dr Asvat and ran away.  Who else saw you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: According to the testimony that was rendered in a court of law, a certain young girl saw us, identified us, saw us when we were running away.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you know her?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I still remember her a little bit, it was Veronica Hlatwayo.

KHOZA MGOJO: She is the one who saw you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, she saw me.  She did not know Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgojo, are you nearly finished?

KHOZA MGOJO: My last and final question.  You were talking about Maqina.  Maqina lives at home, but not here in Johannesburg.  At the time that Maqina went to Mbatha to claim for his gun, where was that happening?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That I don't know.