Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Was it part of your duties as you saw it to destabilise and to terrorise the ANC as far as possible?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Would that include making a safe-house as unsafe as possible?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: That would be your political objective in this case?

ANSWER: That is part of it that's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: In this incident, if I understand you correctly,
3a	Vermeulen /...
MR JANSEN	51	D J COETZEE
Vermeulen had a hand grenade with him?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: He never threw that hand grenade?

ANSWER: He never threw it Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know why he never threw it?

ANSWER: That was his first operation that he went on and I said, my instructions to him was as soon as we start firing he should fire into the bedroom and throw the hand grenade into the bedroom, but he was completely stunned and when we ran away he started running.   He as yet has not fired one shot or threw the hand grenade, but I suppose it was because it was his first operation of that nature.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you know at that stage that that was his first operation to handle a hand grenade?

ANSWER: Yes, with Vlakplaas yes of that nature, across border one yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there any reason why him and not the others was given the hand grenade?

ANSWER: Well Mr Chairman he wanted to go with and as it was his first operation I thought it fit to not have him with a group of three that had to burst into the house, but rather in the outside from a different direction to limit the possibility of we one another shooting at each other.

UNKNOWN: Did Mr Vermeulen fire any shots that evening?

ANSWER: I am not 100% sure Mr Chairman, I'm sure Mrs Dibali might indicate if there was any shots fired from the, at the south-eastern corner bedroom to the window towards the bedroom that must have been Koos Vermeulen.   I don't know whether he pulled a few shots whilst we ran past him and I told him he should have already shot, whether he
3a	did /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	52	D J COETZEE
did...

UNKNOWN: In your statement you say, paragraph 5.4.12.1.21
"This was Koos' first operation of this nature...As I ran past Koos, I shouted that he should follow us.   He asked whether he should shoot and I realised that there had been no cross-fire.   This was Koos' first operation of this nature, he first fired a spurt through the window and then followed us forgetting to throw the hand grenade."

ANSWER: Well ja sorry, I've missed, must have missed out on that one it's quite possible but I won't put my head on a block for that one Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry Captain, in answer to the question which was asked by the gentleman over there, are you in fact saying that this house was used by a safe-house in the sense that we have come to understand a safe-house?

ANSWER: That's correct and a transit house, it was used, it was frequented by the ANC, used by the ANC as a safe-house and apparently Joe Mamasela stayed in this house whilst training with the ANC in Botswana Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't allude to that in your manuscript did you?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't mention that in your manuscript that the house was in fact used as a safe-house?

ANSWER: Well yes it is quite possible, as I said and I asked Mr Chairman to please bear with the fact that this statement was written 14 days before the Harms Commission would have started.   We had very little time, it was my
3a	brother /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	53	D J COETZEE
brother and myself, we had a temperamental word processing machine and struggled day and night to try and finish this manuscript in time for the Harms Commission.   So I am afraid that you would find a fairly lot of detail not in this manuscript which came to my knowledge either later on or I had at the time just, slipped my mind.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your application Mr Coetzee you do mention that the house was used for ANC activities, and this in your evidence would be one of the activities you've referred to on page 21 in your application?   I'm saying in your application you have mentioned that Joyce Dibali and her husband, the house thereof, was used for ANC activities.

ANSWER: That's correct, that was compiled...

SISI KHAMPEPE: You do mention in your application on page 21.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman, that was compiled recently after as I say, during the Harms Commission after having sight of the documents in possession of my lawyers it became knowledge to me, that fact but at the time of the manuscript unfortunately as I say, not.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee you also requested an opportunity, because Mrs Joyce Dibali is present here today, to extend an apology to her?

ANSWER: I do want to and thank you for the opportunity Mr Chairman.   To Mrs Joyce Dibali very sincere regret and apology to you for the lot of discomfort, pain and mental stress that you were caused as a result of this operation.  I believed in exile from the ANC that your health, you had a serious setback as far as your health is concerned and most probably the main cause of that is the fact or the results of this operation that we caused.   Please accept
3a	that /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	54	D J COETZEE
that from me and if you don't forgive me I can understand it.   Again I say because it will be very difficult for me to forgive you if you had done to me what I have done to you and your people.   Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you asked Mrs Dibali who the other woman was and whether she resembled her at all?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I did ask her, there was a bit of a problem between myself and herself, she cannot speak anymore because of the incident, she's got this amnesia again she cannot recall certain things, which thing I'm going to explain at the end the reason why I'm also not going to call her.

JUDGE WILSON: No I don't want her called, it's merely a question of identification.   You aren't able to give us any further information on that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: She remembers the name as I showed her the statement and she is Joyce...

JUDGE WILSON: Is that other person available?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No the other person is not available.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman I will be leading the evidence of Mr Tsikalanga.   I understand from my learned friend we will be calling him before Mr Nofomela.   I then ask leave to call Mr Tsikalanga as applicant on this incident, the Gabarone raid.
DAVID TSIKALANGA (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tsikalanga, just to briefly recap on the background, you were working at Vlakplaas C1 Unit under Captain Dirk Coetzee during 1981, is that correct?
3a	ANSWER: /...
MR JANSEN	55	D TSIKALANGA

ANSWER: Yes it is true.

<UNKNOWN>: You worked under Captain Dirk Coetzee until the end of December 1981?

ANSWER: Yes it is true.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember an incident where you accompanied Captain Dirk Coetzee and other members of the Security Police into Botswana?

ANSWER: Yes I can explain.   What happened was, well I will just before I say another thing is that the same thing that used to be said in Vlakplaas, they used to say we must meet elsewhere.   They will say this before time.   They then gave us the instruction to go to Zeerust where we went to a  nearby farm near (indistinct) near the farm, that is where we really discussed the issue about Gaberone, that's where we were de-briefed to go to that house.

<UNKNOWN>: Who gave you the instructions to go to Zeerust?

ANSWER: It was Captain Coetzee, Jan Coetzee and Dirk Coetzee, Vermeulen and someone else, I can't recall now.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you now referring to the people that you found at the farm near the border?

ANSWER: Yes I'm referring to that.