Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

ALAN TYANI: That was his perception because if he had decided to do that, that was his opinion but I think that he was trying to locate our positions but he had a choice of just opening the door ajar and throw the grenade but the case was this, he just opened the door to try and locate our positions.

MR MNQANDI: But sure Mr Tyani, you know that Mr Zokwe was a trained activist and he knew that you were holding guns.  I sure it would have been very reckless of him to just open himself to being shot by you?

ALAN TYANI: The manner in which he opened the door, I think when there are people outside from my experience you can close the door and the people would just go out or away or you might open the door, find that people are still there but you had to check as a trained person to locate the people and not just to explode the grenade unnecessarily.

MR MNQANDI: Did you in fact kill the deceased?

ALAN TYANI: That is quite possible, that is also impossible because there are two things here, the explosion of the handgrenade and the shooting from my side but what I am sure of is the fact that when I started shooting he fell, I cannot say that I was the cause of death because I did not see the doctor's report.

MR MNQANDI: So you are not sure whether you are the person who killed the deceased?

ALAN TYANI: It's possible that I killed him, it's also possible that he was killed by the handgrenade but I can confirm when I see the doctor's report, I was not present when the post-mortem was conducted.

MR MNQANDI: Why did you shoot him?

ALAN TYANI: The reason for me to shoot at him is not because I was shooting at him because it was him, I had no problem with him but it became apparent to me that his aim was to kill us and I decided to counteract that.

MR MNQANDI: If he had not held a grenade you wouldn't have killed him?

ALAN TYANI: No, there was no need for me to even shoot at him if he had no grenade.

MR MNQANDI: What would you have done with him?

ALAN TYANI: I was going to go ahead searching the house, as we had arrested him we were going to continue with the duty, there was no need for us to shoot him.

MR MNQANDI: So all in all you are not responsible for the death of the deceased?

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, he said he doesn't know and he said he doesn't know whether he actually killed him or not but he's given the situation that he was shooting in self-defence.

MR MNQANDI: Why have you felt it necessary that you should apply for amnesty?

ALAN TYANI: It is necessary because I'm the one who pulled the trigger there and I am sure that he felt because I shot at him.  It is possible that he was injured by my bullet but I'm the one who shot at him when he fell.

MR MNQANDI: From the time that you entered the house and the time that the deceased was shot, what time elapsed?

ALAN TYANI: I can say it was a matter of minutes that happened very quick but I can say it was a matter of minutes or a second but I remember at some stage Gumengu was negotiating with him and at some stage he had this handgrenade but I never counted the minutes.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know the time you reached the deceased's homestead?

ALAN TYANI: No, except for the fact that we knocked off very late from our office and when we arrived there I did not think of checking the time because I knew that we were already in the battlefield as we were facing a trained person who had his accomplices in the house.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know what time you returned to your office?

ALAN TYANI: There was a delay as we were looking for an ambulance and after that kind of an incident you cannot just leave the scene you have to wait for the officers to come and visit the scene.  I am estimating I think it was about 8 but it is different, seasons are different and the time is also different but it took some time as we were waiting for our seniors.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that when you were inside the house a long time elapsed before the shots were heard by the people outside.  In fact it is estimated that an hour or so passed before the shots were heard.  What would you say to that?

ALAN TYANI: I dispute that.  Yes there was delay as we were negotiating with him but that couldn't have been an hour as a person who was there.

MR MNQANDI: But you say there was a delay?

ALAN TYANI: Yes a different kind of delay.  There was a delay when he was being talked to when he was inside the house.  There's another delay again when we were waiting for the senior officers to come and visit or inspect the scene, that was another one, that was much longer than the first delay, that was long after the gunshots had been heard.

MR MNQANDI: That is all the questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MNQANDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mnqandi.  Mr Mapoma any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

JUDGE MILLER: Just one question on one point, when you arrived at the house was there anybody at the premises that you saw besides the people you went with?

ALAN TYANI: No, I did not take note of that but I knew that Sthembele, that was his home and he had the authority to get into the house, I cannot say there was no one, I cannot remember seeing anyone.  I just saw his mother coming in.

JUDGE MILLER: When did you see his mother coming in?

ALAN TYANI: It was late just after the incident and during the time when you were waiting for the police, our senior officers to come to the scene, I cannot say what time it was but I remember that he came before the senior officers came.  She came before the senior officers came.

MR SIBANYONI: When Gumengu was talking to the deceased was he always at the door?

ALAN TYANI: Yes he was there at the door, I remember when the deceased was holding the handle.  Whether it was locked or he used it to balance with it but he was talking to him at the door and I could see that he couldn't face the door directly because anything was possible.

MR SIBANYONI: It would appear it was not necessary for the deceased to open the door and locate where he knew you were just immediately at the door, you would just have opened the door and threw the handgrenade, what do you say to that suggestion?

ALAN TYANI: That depends, that varies from one person to another.  You can just open the door ajar and throw the grenade without checking whether the people were there or not.  You can open the door fully trying to locate your enemy as a trained man before hitting at the enemy.  That condition varies from one person to another.  I also have a belief that if it was bright he couldn't have looked through to see what was happening at the passage.

MR SIBANYONI: As you were shooting at him were you in a position to see whether your bullets are striking him, was he always in your sight?

ALAN TYANI: Yes he was visible, he was in my sight and when I aimed at him as a person who was holding a dangerous object I was aiming at him to shoot him so that I could kill him if possible and I knew what was going to happen after he had thrown the grenade.  I was just trying to shoot to kill him.

MR SIBANYONI: During the whole period you were shooting was he still in a standing position?

ALAN TYANI: Shooting does not take minutes it's a matter of seconds but when I was shooting he was still standing up, I stopped shooting after seeing him falling.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any re-examination Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No re-examination thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Tyani you're excused.

ALAN TYANI: I have a request if I'll be given permission?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?