Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

MR LAX: Just one other last question from myself and that is the issue of people that have disappeared, not just executions and so on. As we have found with other movements and, particularly, people who have come before us and said, look, my son disappeared round about this time.  We think he went into exile, we do not know for sure.  Is there any way you can assist us with lists of people that will have arrived at your camps or that you know of that left to go into exile in one way or another or that disappeared on route back or that were killed in engagements back here, because one of the other aspects is that there are allegations that, for example, the police and the SADF would sometimes bury cadres in paupers graves, because they were simply unidentified or maybe for more sinister motives.  One does not know.
 So, we are just needing to know whether you can assist us in some way with some degree of possible lists that you may have been able to compile either from your records or from peoples memories and so on, that will help us fill in those bits of the puzzle that are missing at the moment.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: In fact, ... (intervention).

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: We did indicate that we are very much willing to co-operate with the TRC, because we realise that it is playing a very important role to appease even our people.  If the TRC or the member of the public or the nation comes and say I suspect my daughter or my son joined Apla this date, etcetera, can Apla provide us with information if she or he was there, we are very willing to do that and I think very prepared to co-operate with the public.  If we do not know, we do not know.  If we know we are, basically, going to provide every assistance possible.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Well, Mr Chairman, in the same vein, we would like the TRC to assist us.  Particularly we have a number of our forces who were captured in Mozambique in 19 ... (intervention).

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: 68.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: ... 68.  Comrade Zulu was amongst them, those who were in that brazen action in Mozambique and where they fought until they reached Villa Peri.  He and the other one, Comrade Makoena, retreated, but from that time up to this time there were, how many, four or three, six of our cadres, well, the others fell in the battle, but about six of our cadres are alleged to have been captured by the Mozambique, by the Portuguese forces and at time, at independence of Mozambique in 1975 we rang to Mozambique, we tried to find those people.  Perhaps, the Government of Mozambique can co-operate better with the TRC to get the records.
 The relatives of these people are still coming to us even in so many years and at some stage the people did write, these cadres did write home and at this stage they must be quite aged if they are still alive.  I mean they are of our age group.  So that, perhaps, we believe that the TRC can have a better ways of asking the Mozambique Government for whether those people are there.  I think Comrade Zulu and the others can be able to give the details of the names of these people.  We will be grateful if the TRC would assist us in that manner.  In the same way as Comrade Dan has said, we will do our best.  
 There have been a lot of people coming to us, I mean, they have been coming to us also asking if these people joined and so on, I think as late as last week, somebody came to me looking for their daughter who was supposed to have left and wanted to know whether that person joined the PAC abroad and we went into that process to find out if they did.  I thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you. We will obviously try and do what we can and we will discuss that later.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: I have three questions, but the first two are related.  The third one is, in a way, independent.  The first question is really wanting to know whether Apla, as an armed force, had a position or a policy regarding the handling of women as soft targets, if I might use your words.  We have had instances of witnesses who were talking about how they were handled by Apla members for, especially those who were suspected or who were alleged to be collaborating with the system.  They have related stories of being tortured.  Also, in some of the stories women in farmer's families have been raped before being murdered and in some instances there have been allegations that that was done by Apla members.  So, I just wanted to know whether you had a policy as to how to deal with women in particular in instances where they were, where they fell under the category of soft targets.
 The second question I said is related to the first one is it relates to whether, are there any women who are Apla members.  If there are, my question is do you think if you had brought them here today their explanations and understanding of the operations of your organisation would have added value to what you are saying or not?  
 The last one really relates to the rehabilitation of cadres.  I would just like to know whether there are discussions today about what should be done in terms of rehabilitating those people who were exposed in, what you refer to, as peoples' war, especially because it tended to have attraction to people who were young, in some instances really children.  So, I just wanted your views on those three.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Well, I think in the first question you will have to explain as to what do you mean.  Do you mean the women within our ranks being abused or women in the ranks of the enemy being abused and considered as targets?  What actually are you saying?

MS MKHIZE: Well, it really specifically, one, I would like to know whether in your planning you foresaw a situation whereby women would be part of, what you refer to, as soft targets?  If you did, what were your views as to how women will be treated?  Was that of interest to you at all.  Like, for instance, when your foot soldiers gave reports, were there any instances where you were told that, well, we found, let us say, a farmer's house, an old woman as to how was she treated, how was she dealt with, was that an issue for you at all?  That is what I am referring to not, I am not talking about women as Apla members in the first instance, but as.