Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1999-03-08

MR WILLS: Yes, and then I've just taken it up to the point of their arrest.  The dates indicated are the dates of their arrest.
	Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's basically my submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: Chairperson with your permission, I will sit.  I planned to be very brief and I hope that I can still be brief.
	I've appeared on behalf of five policemen who were implicated by the seventh applicant, Mr Hlongwane, during the Ermelo hearings, and their names appear on, in paragraph 3 of page 2 of the Heads which were submitted.  Chairperson these Heads were submitted in November last year, and I was under the impression that it was distributed among you, that everyone ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know what happened personally, I would have thought so as well, that they ought to have been in the normal course of events distributed, but I don't know what happened.  I must say I got my copy long ago, about November.

MR MULLER: Thank you Chair.  My apologies to Mr Wills but I don't think it takes the matter a lot further.  I can only say that the purpose of the appearance on behalf of the implicated persons was not to oppose the application of the applicant, and that was put on record during the hearings and it was also under, the point is also made in the Heads.  It is merely to protect the interests of the implicated persons, and it is correct so that no evidence was led on behalf of the implicated persons, but the reason therefor was that it wouldn't have taken the matter further.  We have put on record that the Goldstone Commission investigated the, some of the allegations that were made, and the only purpose in protecting the rights of the implicated persons is to request this Committee, and I submit that there is no, that there is not enough evidence to make a negative finding against any of the implicated persons, which might lead to a, that they might be charged or whatever, and I think that was the purpose of these, of the appearance on behalf of the implicated persons.  And I think that is how far I can take it.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Muller.
	Mr Mpshe do you have any submissions you wish to make.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I don't have any submissions.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any further, anybody thought of anything else they'd like to, any further ...  Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART IN FURTHER ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson thank you, I will sit now so as to avoid dropping things and so on and so forth.  Thank you.
	I did indicate that we would look for the references to the looting or so called looting incident or incidents, and really in our searches here, you may have noticed us searching, we found only one, and this was in the affidavit of Luthuli, at page 285 of the first bundle.
	Mr Luthuli is talking about the pursuit of a particular person called Guduza and he refers to a crowd pursuing this person, and the, there was a riot as it's described, at a shopping centre, which was followed by the throwing of stones.  Looting was taking place as well, he said, and this is him reporting as to what was happening by, as I think I indicated in my argument that, by the crowds rather than by the soldiers, and that was possibly the reference.  And then of course there's the reference to the taking of cattle, the seizing of cattle in the rural areas in defending one of the chiefs, or acting for one of the chiefs.  And that's, well perhaps I should say the first one I gave you the page number 286, it's in particular paragraph 25.7.16.  And the cattle incident is referred to page 257, paragraph 16.27.  Those are the only ones that we've found.
	If I might then also draw to the Committee's attention, and I apologise for this, it's become apparent to us in our searching for those references which I've indicated, that we've made one wrong reference.  This is in the schedule of incidents in respect of Mr Khumalo, at the back of the Heads of Argument.  And the pages aren't actually numbered but it's about three pages from the back.  It's the Khumalo incident number 5.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR STEWART: No that must be Dlamini Mr Chairperson.  Khumalo incident number 5, attack at Natingi, and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR STEWART: Mine aren't numbered.  That's right.  Now that's it's reflected as evidence in chief volume 1, page 34 to 37, that's in fact volume 4.  In any event it's at the Hammarsdale hearings, the Hammarsdale volume, whereas volume 1 was Durban and Richards Bay.  So it's just that small thing.
	And then the final thing unless there're any questions that the Members of the Committee have, and that's in relation to the question raised by the Honourable Chairperson in relation to the denials placed on record by the implicated persons.  Clearly those denials were placed there for the purpose of protecting those persons rights and Mr Hewitt in cross-examination employed various other tactics in order to try and protect their rights, putting certain things on record and so on.  But in my submission they can't go so far as to weigh, really to have any weight in weighing whether amnesty should be granted or not.  They, I mean they're not so far as putting a version even.

CHAIRPERSON: They're not backed by any evidence or anything either.

MR STEWART: Well Mr Chairperson you know it's not even, not only is there no evidence, but it's not even a version really, the person was there but they weren't involved or anything like that.  It's just a blanket denial.  It can't really carry any weight insofar as the granting of amnesty is concerned.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Yes well thank you very much.  I'd like to thank the legal representatives for their arguments, and particularly Mr Stewart and Mr Wills for the annexures, the schedules, which you've both said it took a great deal of effort to compile, but I can assure you they're going to assist us greatly in this matter and we appreciate that.  We will reserve our decision and shall endeavour to get out, we are fully aware of the fact that your clients, Mr Wills, are in custody and that therefore there is a degree of urgency, let me put it that way, and we will endeavour to get out our decision as soon as possible in this matter, but we will reserve it at this stage.
	Thank you very much, and I'd just like to thank you as well Mr Muller for coming up with ...(inaudible) argument, and it's nice to see Mr Mpshe here again coming back to be with us.  And I'd just like to thank everybody for arranging today to enable us to receive this argument.  Thank you very much, and thank you Ms Williams for sitting in.
	We'll now adjourn, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS