Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: In fact he says this matter that would be the one of pouring water up the nostrils you'll do after one has been in this helicopter?

CHAIRPERSON: During the helicopter or?

MR MGIDLANA: After.

CHAIRPERSON: After.

MR MGIDLANA: When one is dizzy after having been taken down this helicopter if I don't - unfortunately I don't have a picture of what it looks like.

CHAIRPERSON: The helicopter was the one where there was a table with a stick and they used to hang the person hands and feet from the stick to hang.

MR MGIDLANA: So I'm correct in saying that after one has been taken down whilst one is dizzy, he says that's the matter that will be used, that one of pouring water in one's nostrils.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said I did not see that.

MR MGIDLANA: By the way, did you appreciate that this suffocation of one in a canvas bag could cause severe brain damage or even kill somebody, did you appreciate that when you were administering this method?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR LAX: Surely you realised you had to be careful, for goodness sake.  What did you think, that someone wouldn't drown if you held them under there for too long?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We thought that he would just suffocate and then he would be taken off, he wouldn't put a lot of water, it would just be wet so that we can make sure that there's not enough oxygen to make sure that the person cannot breathe properly but by the time the person starts to suffocate then the person would be taken off.

MR LAX: But if you made a mistake the person could die?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct, the person could die, that has just come to my mind.

MR MGIDLANA: Even prior to putting one in this helicopter thing, is it correct that you would ask that person to first drink a lot of water to fill up his stomach?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I never administered that kind of torture.

MR MGIDLANA: All those that I represent say that's what was done before they were put in this helicopter?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That was not done by me, perhaps it was somebody else, not me personally.

MR MGIDLANA: And if you were leading these torture sessions that mustn't have also been done by - if I am correct in what I say, you were leading these torture sessions so that must have been done by you, is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Or in your presence?

MR MGIDLANA: Or in your presence, yes of course, thank you.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I never took any leading role and I never did that.

MR MGIDLANA: That's surprising because you always want your role to be very minimal whereas all that they are saying is that you were the key person in the arrest, you were always the key person in the torturing process.  Do you realise that you will do yourself a disfavour by not actually telling the truth on that aspect?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not say that my role was minimal, all I am against is the fact that I was always taking a leading role.  Yes I would play a leading role on some occasions but not all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: You had at one stage tortured one Archie Maqekeza, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you use the helicopter method to him?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know Ernest Tsotso?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I know him.

MR MGIDLANA: And you had tortured him, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Are you aware that Ndlaku was seriously injured after you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat that name again?

MR MGIDLANA: Are you aware that Ndlaku, being N-D-L-A-K-U, was seriously injured after having been put on this canvas bag?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Those who were injured would be taken to the doctor and even Thobile Ndlaku, he came to the doctor and even Thobile Ndlaku, yes he was injured and he was taken to the doctor.

MR MGIDLANA: When you take them to the doctor will you tell the doctors to what had happened to this person that you were bringing in?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, that would be explained?

MR MGIDLANA: Will you do that easily, or it's something you had to debate before doing, that is taking the injured person, the injured detainee to a doctor?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We would do that easily, it's normal.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you threaten anyone about shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about people in detention?

MR MGIDLANA: In detention, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you threaten any detainees that you would shoot them?

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, Chairperson.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I never threatened anyone myself.

MR MGIDLANA: Mtimkulu says that you threatened that - in fact you said that he shall be shot and thrown in the river and somebody else with whom you were in the vehicle said that now how are they going to explain that to his father, Dr Mtimkulu?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I never mentioned anything of that nature.

MR MGIDLANA: So your evidence is that he never threatened anyone?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, myself as a person, I never threatened anyone.

MR MGIDLANA: There's some noise.
	There's a heavy iron chair in your office, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not see that.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: By the way did you recall torturing Mbegum Mnyatheno?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Mbegum who?

MR MGIDLANA: Mnyatheno, M-N-Y-A-T-H-E-N-O.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I do remember him.

MR MGIDLANA: He says he was made to lift up this heavy iron chair for hours until his arms felt numb.  Are you saying it was not done in your presence?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I have never seen the iron chair but I saw him lifting up an ordinary chair, not an iron chair, I did not see that with my eyes.

MR MGIDLANA: What would happen once he drops it, once he drops that chair?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He would be assaulted.

MR MGIDLANA: You'll also punch him on his back, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Was he pulled around by his beard?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not do that to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it done in your presence, did you see him being pulled around by his beard?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The person who would pull people's beard was Warrant Officer Ndomela.

MR MGIDLANA: So you ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just?  So did you actually see it or didn't you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I saw him doing it to the detainees several times.

MR LAX: Well then when he asked you the question, did you do it, why didn't you just say no?  I didn't do it but I saw someone else do it, it was so and so.  If you saw it happen and you asked about it, just tell us.  I mean we don't have to waste three or four extra questions before we get there.
Okay?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: Mr Siqhola, I get the impression that you want to be selective in telling us what actually happened, am I correct in that impression?  Are you prepared to tell us virtually everything as it happened?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I am here to tell the truth.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it that you have forgotten that there were other methods that were used when you gave your evidence as well as in your documentation to torture people which you have now mentioned and agreed that they actually happened in your presence?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I think I forgot to mention them.

MR MGIDLANA: Now that you chose not to divulge them because of fear of the embarrassment that was blocking the security police then?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I'm not afraid of anything, I made this application voluntarily therefore I'm willing to mention anything but unfortunately this happened some time ago.