Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

UNKNOWN: As a human being do you today not within your own mind query why those orders were given, you can think?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I sometimes ask myself but I cannot get answers to those questions.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  Do you still hate whites?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I don't hate them.

UNKNOWN: So we no longer have to be kicked out of your country?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No.

UNKNOWN: Are you still a member of the PAC?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

UNKNOWN: You know I have studied a little bit of history, my interest is World War 2 actually and when anybody has been wrong in any situation of war which I would assume you claim you were in at that time, reparation somehow have to be made and now you are seeking amnesty from the Government and if they grant this to you then that is what the Government gives to you, your normal ordinary life back.
	That is raparations in my eyes that they are giving you, the one who has been part of a crime which has been committed again what I feel, my husband, what is it that the Government should give the families who have lost their providers?  You get back your normal life if you get amnesty, what should the Government give to the families?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie to you, I do not know what the Government is giving the families of the victims.

UNKNOWN: I don't ask whether you know what the Government is giving, I'm asking you what do you think?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is to reconcile the perpetrators and the families of the victims.

UNKNOWN: That will bring back our providers, that will not make our lives easier.  I understand that you cannot get back your relatives and husbands and the victims because they have passed away.

UNKNOWN: South Africa has suffered from racial prejudice, right?, suffered very, very dearly.  Women have suffered for much, much longer gender prejudice, do you think it could be justified that we just pick up the guns and start killing men?  That is exactly what you have done, you just picked up your guns and started killing whites, do you think that's justified?  That any such a thing is justified, to kill?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

UNKNOWN: It is not justified?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot think it justifies or does not justify but I think it will not be a good thing.

UNKNOWN: But it is justified that men that you killed, whites which oppress you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said, what happened was happening under instructions I was given that I could not contradict.

UNKNOWN: So next time there is again an armed struggle you will once again pick up the arms and do exactly the same?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I don't think so, I don't think I'll again involve myself in such things.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  Ultimately the decision to kill these people is your own, right?   You have received orders but you also have, you are a human being and you think and ultimately the decision to kill is your own?  How can you as a civilian or a soldier kill three defenceless unarmed people?  You actually look into their eyes, how are you able to be willing to commit such an act?  Explain that to me because I cannot, for the world I cannot understand it.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We could not have done otherwise because that was the instruction that was given, that we could not contradict, we were forced to do that.

UNKNOWN: You were forced?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was - we were kind of forced to accept that instruction.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  My last question to you.  You say all you cared about was to kill anybody who supported the Government, whether they were white, Chinese, Persians, it doesn't matter, as long as you killed people who were supporting the Government.  Then why is it that you did not kill Africans who were supporting the Government? - at the church.  If it is assumed we are supporting the Government of course.  Everybody there was one.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The instruction that was given to us was that we must kill white people, not black people at that church, that is why they were divided from the blacks and those who were white were then killed.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicated that that was your last question but bear in mind that you will - we welcome you to give you the opportunity to come and explain further what you feel, what you believe and thank you very much for your participation.
	I had invited you to re-examine - oh, is there a second person coming?

MR PRIOR: No Mr Chairman, she has declined, she would also welcome the opportunity to testify later on.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understand now from Mr Lax that there are one or two points that he thinks it would be better that he should clear up before you re-examine.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.  I'm just interested in a follow-up on the questions that Mr Ntonga asked you, particularly about the filling in of these various amnesty applications.
	Now in the first one you were assisted by an attorney and when Mr Ntonga pointed out to you the disparities between the two amnesty applications your answer to his question in that regard was that you filled it in "On the advice of the attorney who helped me fill in the application".  Do you remember that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember it.

MR LAX: How did he actually fill in that application form for you?  Did you tell him the full story and then he suggested to you that you should only mention TNT or did you only tell him about TNT?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I gave him the whole story.

MR LAX: Why was it decided to leave out the thing about Mr Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Firstly, it was new - not new to me that day for them to say I must not include his name, that is Jimmy Jones' name in my application because there were people who came.  It is apparent that they were sent to us and they told us that when we make those applications we must not refer to people who are alive, we must implicate people who are already deceased.

MR LAX: Who were those people?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well who they were because I was not called then to receive those people, I only got the message from other comrades who were called by those.

MR LAX: When did that happen?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: During 1996.

MR LAX: 1996?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Was it before you made this first application?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Approximately how long before?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember the month and the date but all of this happened during 1996.

MR LAX: So the fact of the matter is that when you made this first application you didn't tell the Truth Commission the truth?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was because I was accepting the instrutions that were given to us but later I discovered the TRC will not give me amnesty if proceed giving these lies.

MR LAX: But wasn't that clear to you from the form?  The form makes that very clear, that you're obliged to make full disclosure.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so, it explains so.

MR LAX: So you knew that at the time  you didn't make full disclosure?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I knew but because I too was afraid of my life, losing my life by not accepting the instructions, not to speak about the commander and to refer to those who are already deceased.

MR LAX: Who threatened you with your life, that you were afraid to lose it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I feared for my life by speaking, by not accepting what I was told and speaking the truth but when time went by and I talked - thinking about this, I realised that it would not help me not to speak the truth to the TRC despite the one who instructed me to do these things is still alive and not amongst those who are deceased, as I have been told to talk about the late TNT.