Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know Mr Chairperson, there was for example someone that appears quite a lot that I can recall as a Mr Botes, I think Pieter Botes who worked in region 2 and many of them on a daily basis, we only worked with administrative names and apart from what is mentioned there I think those would be all the Regional Managers if one would read this together with the other groups that you already have.

MR HOCKEY: In the Commission Report to this effect it seems that very little information could be extracted concerning the external activities of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is correct.

MR HOCKEY: Are you prepared to tell this Committee why that is the case, why were you and are you still, you and your fellow operatives, still not prepared to give information about the external activities of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes Mr Chairperson.  It has already been said and that is because you cannot give me amnesty in other country.  I cannot through this structure get amnesty in a neighbouring country for example.

MR HOCKEY: So that qualifies the reason why you're actually applying for amnesty here.  You're only applying for internal activities?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is the only jurisdiction that would come from your side.

MR HOCKEY: So there might be deaths ...(intervention)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Pardon, I just want to say this to you, there were definite meetings at that time by Gen Geldenhuys, by Gen Liebenberg and I don't know which generals came from the Police with one enquiry committee.  They spoke to this committee, I saw documentation where it was admitted that amnesty could not be given outside the jurisdiction of the South African community and borders and this caused from the Defence Force's side, it doesn't help that we speak about it, it will have a steamroller effect and this was what was being done over the past few years, for example to try and find out from me what the uniform side did regarding operations across the border etc.

MR HOCKEY: So there were discussions on top level and tell me whether this filtered down to lower levels as well, that people that operated externally were not going to give disclosure as to the details of external operations by the CCB and other structures within the State?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that was within the context that I've stated.

MR HOCKEY: So there are many deaths for which the CCB and other structures is responsible outside the country that we're never going to hear about, is that what you're saying?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I do not say that that is necessarily the death of people, it is projects outside the country.

MR HOCKEY: Yes but you admitted that there were deaths reported so amongst those projects?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I just want to give you an indication of what I'm talking about.  If the CCB gives the information for an invasion into Angola and there are losses then being the CCB the South African Defence Force or the politicians or Pik Botha is in the ANC at the moment, who is it?  And it is on that basis that it had become a completely impossible task.

MR HOCKEY: I understand that you co-operated with other arms of the State but is it correct that at times the CCB acted on it's own in external operations?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is the case.

MR HOCKEY: And on it's own was the CCB responsible for deaths outside the country?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not have to answer that.

MR HOCKEY: I shall leave that there.  You were also asked in detail about cash incentives for success in projects?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: Now I want to ask you, was there such a thing as a production bonus related to specific projects of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes.

MR HOCKEY: Can you name some of these?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The production bonus was in all projects because the project could have been a person's own administration.  Now let me explain to you under which circumstances on could then receive a bonus and payment was then made for or money was then paid out for the completion, for the production of this.

MR HOCKEY: Let me just come back to one point.  You are aware that gross human rights violation, the definition thereof, is not restricted to activities inside the country but also outside the country?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I told you what my point of view is concerning this.

MR HOCKEY: And ...(intervention)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I just have to say I'm completely prepared, I will talk about what happened outside the country if you can guarantee me amnesty in any country.  If you could give it to me in writing that I will receive amnesty then we can talk about that, I have no problem in talking about it.  It might place the CCB in a better perspective.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that we don't have the authority to grant amnesty in other countries that will be applicable in other countries.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairperson, if I may just, the witness has said that he wanted to comply with the Act.  The Act requires both inside and outside the country but I don't want to argue it now.

CHAIRPERSON: The effect of what I'm saying is the effect of any amnesty granted here does not have an equivalent effect in a country beyond our borders.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: So let me just come back to the question of bonuses.  Yesterday you testified that one or two, I can't remember, annual bonuses that were given to your operatives?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, it was only a naming for qualifying monies, for qualifications that they had already obtained that could not be linked to the Defence Force activities and then it was linked in the private sector to production bonuses.  This was the one element and then there were specific amounts that were spoken about, about expenditures and production as it appears in Slang van Zyl's statement.

MR HOCKEY: Per project there was also or there may have been bonuses as well?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: Can you tell us whether there were any bonuses given in respect of the Early Learning Centre incident?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember at this point.  I recall that there were certain indications, I don't know which of these projects were of Slang van Zyl because I am just looking at the whole structure at the moment.

MR HOCKEY: There also bonuses promised for the operation in Namibia, South West Africa at the time, just before the first general elections in that country, do you remember that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't think I need to answer that.

MR HOCKEY: Do you remember that bonuses were promised to your operatives for activities in Namibia before the first general elections?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not think that it is relevant here, I don't know what this has to do with what we're talking of.

MR HOCKEY: Can I just ask you to take Exhibit D again?  You can look at paragraph 411.  Okay, I'll read it to you
"As is evident from the above, one aspect of the CCB's modus operandi was the use of cash as an incentive to produce.  Thus like other hit squad or counter-insurgency units such as Koevoet and C10 CCB members were provided with a positive inducement to undertake actions would could and often did result in a gross violation of other individuals rights"
Can you confirm that?