Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Mr learned colleague, Mr Bizos, has said that a suggestion or statement was made that there was a text book answer as to what would be said after the corpses had been found, namely that Azapo would be responsible for what had happened.
	It is indeed so that that is the suspicion that you wanted to create through your actions.  Was it planned to make Azapo appear as the chief suspect.  Did this emanate from the conflict between Azapo and the UDF at that stage?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Is it correct if I put it to you that attacks occurred led by members of  Azapo on UDF officials and members?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: In January 1985, you arrived in Port Elizabeth.	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, it was January 1984.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: So you were there for approximately 18 months until the incident occurred?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.  With the exception of the three months that I spent doing border duty from January to April 1985.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And Mr Goniwe was familiar to you as an activist.  Did you know him?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Was it necessary that a person from Cradock should be with you that evening to identify him?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: If the Committee might just grant me a moment.
	It was asked to you regarding the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe in a teaching position.  Did you ever discuss this with Mr Winter?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I was a Captain at that stage.  It was quite a junior rank and I didn't possess any knowledge of the various departments' plans regarding transfers and such.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, the following aspects come from the statement made by Mr de Kock.  It might just take some time, I don't know if now would be the appropriate time?

CHAIRPERSON: As far as I can recall, the testimony of this witness does not affect your client.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: But specifically the testimony of Mr de Kock, if you look at the pieces, it is actually the only relation that can be drawn between the incident and the involvement of my client in this incident-what this witness would have said of De Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: That is true. How much longer will you be taking?

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Approximately 15 minutes or so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it does not appear as if we will be finishing today.

GEORGE BIZOS: Chairman, could we have an indication for Counsel for the Applicants who is going to be next, so that we may focus on the person concerned?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he indicated Van Rensburg.

GEORGE BIZOS: I would just like to confirm because with some degree of certainty so that we do not...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, is that still the position?

MR BOOYENS: My learned friend is tempting to give a very bad answer -  if I change the sequence of my witnesses, I will tell my learned friend about that.  He needn't worry about it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, who is it going to be, because I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Van Rensburg.

MR BOOYENS: Van Rensburg.  I told you that yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, half past nine.

HEARING ADJOURNS: ON RESUMPTION ON DAY 25.02.98  -  DAY 3

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, you are still under oath to speak the truth.

MR J VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van der Merwe.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: (cont)
	Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr van Zyl, just before we come to Mr de Kock's statement, it was put to you yesterday that one of the applicants spoke to the family and that he was supposedly told by the member of the family that there were three hit squads pursuing Mr Goniwe and his cohorts.  
	Can you recall that?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Your answer was that you were not aware of any other persons who had been tasked to eliminate Mr Goniwe.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, I was never aware of any other attempts in this regard.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Colonel Winter, during his period of service at "Koevoet", you testified that he was tasked primarily with the gathering of intelligence.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: He was there for quite a few years and that was mainly his job, yes for a short period he also had a combat team, but primarily he was responsible for gathering intelligence and for evaluating that evidence or information.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: When he was transferred to Cradock in 1985, his task there was also the gathering of information.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct. And also to manage the branch, as the Branch Commander.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Now, you testified that the police vehicle you used that day was a South African Police service vehicle.  	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Was it allocated to you?  Was it your personal vehicle which you used?

MR J VAN ZYL: That was the vehicle I generally used.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: The procedure if a South African Police vehicle had been damaged would it be to repair it yourself or for the SAP to repair it?

MR J VAN ZYL: It would normally be repaired at the police motor port.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And I assume that there might have been quite a number of documents to fill in to facilitate this kind of repair?

MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I assume so.  I was never personally involved with repairing vehicles.  I assume that would have been the process.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: There is also evidence with regard to false number plates which were used during this incident.
	Could you simply explain to the commission whether one person used a specific set of number plates or were there a number of number plates that were used for deception?

MR J VAN ZYL: There were quite a number of number plates which were used at the security branches and they were usually used by certain police officers who might have used them for quite a length of time, but usually it was taken off after a while and placed in the communal area.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: The police vehicle which you used during your actions - did it have false number plates on that evening?

MR J VAN ZYL: I imagine so.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And would all traffic fines which related to that number plate refer to one specific vehicle?

MR J VAN ZYL: It would depend on the time period in which the traffic fines were issued.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: In the security force during that time, if someone referred to "My people" would that indicate security police or individuals connected to "My branch"?
	Let me narrow it down for you.  If you, as Mr de Kock states in his statements, that you and your people were personally involved in the operation.  Would that refer to security police or individuals from the security branch in Port Elizabeth?

MR J VAN ZYL: That would refer to the security branch in Port Elizabeth.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: I do not wish to keep you regarding Mr de Kock's statement, but if we look at it in its entirety, would you agree with me that what is contained in this statement, consists basically of one point which is in line with your evidence  that you and your people were personally involved in the operation which abducted Mr Goniwe.
	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: The information that Mr Winter allegedly had a drinking problem, that was a generally known fact among the people who knew him.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I don't think it was known as a drinking problem as such, but everybody knew that Eric Winter could sometimes drink more than the average person.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: ; The other information which Mr de Kock has submitted in his statement, the information which you allegedly gave to him.
	Is this information which can be reconciled with the facts of what happened?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, as I have said yesterday, that which I stated was stated under false pretences.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Yesterday you conceded that this might have occurred?