Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR MARITZ: Well Mr Chairman that's wonderful because now it puts a totally different aspect on what's going on here. Because now you spelt out that it is not in regard to any belief that somebody on the ground may have had but it regards to the culpability of my client. And let me remind you sir that I have the ruling by this Commission which prevents you from pursuing that. Let me read to you what was said to my client by the then chairman, Archbishop Tutu when he appeared there, whenever it was. I've got the record here and I'll read from 22. The Archbishop said the following, he said: "I appreciate very, very much, we appreciate very much your readiness to have done what you have done. And I want to say again, there is no desire on our part to put anybody as it were on the spot. We are deeply committed as you to this reconciliation to ensuring that this country doesn't go up in flames." And it's not me speaking, it's the Archbishop speaking. "And we don't, there's no gain for us if we set you up and you become an object of vilification. That doesn't help us. I mean all we want is we could get the truth and you are able, you said if you remember you wanted as a military man to fill up the gaps that you were aware were present in the knowledge of this Commission." This is a very, very salient re-ruling but it is a proper ruling made by this Commission. And what is happening now flies directly in the face of that hearing and on that basis I object to it.

MR LYSTER: Thank you Mr Maritz. I don't think that what the Archbishop said has any relevance to what is being asked now. What he did say there is that we want the truth. We are not vilifying General Malan in any way whatsoever. We are asking him whether language that he admits that he used whether he believes that could have reasonably been interpreted by somebody on the ground as to commit an unlawful act. And that is all we are asking him. And you've committed yourself here or he has through you to assist this Commission and we need to have an answer from him. He has said earlier on today that - I can't recall his words. That it could have been misinterpreted. Is that correct? And perhaps that is the answer to the question. I don't know whether he wants to take it any further.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman on a lighter vein. No I don't want this on record because counsel do not function between 11:15 and 11:30, can't we have smoke break please?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman perhaps if these interjections were to stop coming we would be making progress.

MR LYSTER: Should we just go on until 11:30 and then have a fifteen minute break. General Malan do you want to add to what you have already said? Whether the sort of language that you have conceded that you used inside and outside of parliament could have been reasonably or should you have foreseen that such language could reasonably have lead to someone on the ground, troops on the ground taking the law into their own hands? Or being over robust and committing acts, unlawful acts which they shouldn't have committed?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair this is the dilemma of the Truth Commission it's the problem of continuity. If you look, I do not want to criticise you but if you look at my report from page 30 on up until page 49, I give a culmination of factors which could have played a role. I answer the question in detail there and I will stick with the answer I have given. The Commissioners at that stage were quite satisfied with that.

MR LYSTER: To refer us back to what you said in May and October?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: It was May, the 7th of May and it's recorded on my submission page 30 to 49. On this specific subject and it wasn't only about one part of it. It was culminating in various factors.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I'm going to move on but I'd like to place on record that I don't think that, that's a satisfactory answer.
 Moving on, General Malan, I'd now like turn to decisions taken by the State Security Council and minuted in the minutes of the State Security Council. If you'd like I can refer to specific documents which have bee provided to you but I want to put a general proposition to you. Minister Pik Botha, Minister Roelf Meyer, deputy Minister of law and order at the time, Leon Wessels and Adriaan Vlok have all conceded in their testimony that the language used in State Security Council minutes and documents but, minutes of the State Security Council principally. Although they did not intend that they would authorise unlawful activity at certain times words used such as "eliminate, neutralise, verwyder," etc. could have been misinterpreted, were ambiguous. Would you agree with that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair I think this is a very important question that was now put to me. I have thought about this question for a very long time in the sense that so many words were used which could possible be open to various interpretations. I must add that I have virtually no document with the exception for the documents that the Truth Commission have made available to me. My reference source is therefore very limited if I refer to documents, I am referring to this small bundle that I have received. If I am correct on addendum I that you have supplied me with on the State Security Council on the 14th of April '86, that is agenda item number 4. (That was a bit too fast.) Wat hier aan die gang is, is dat doe vrae wat aan my gestel word, the deterioration of the internal security situation. Then there's another addendum where in which goals for the law and order was put. It is a State Security Council document instructing the JMS what to do. I only have two pages but I cannot say with any certainty what I have is in a number 3 in the aims it says: "To neutralise enemy leaders, to eliminate them. And to break the influence they are exerting." Those were the specific words. (The interpreters can't see the witness.) I want to say that this is what my friend has now asked me.

MR MARITZ: Which has been supplied to us.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: En daar staan

MR LYSTER: Sorry just, General it's 14th of April sorry?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: It's 14th ja.

MR LYSTER: Ja.

MR MARITZ: '86.