Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, that is not the reason.  That would cause us a delay.  We were also involved on ANC Youth League structures, things of organising those memorial service for Chris, things of providing transport to the funeral, it needed us, so we were not scared of the ANC, that it is going to condemn our plan.
	It is because the time was not there to go to the ANC, and we wanted to show this.

MR SMUTS: The decision as I understand it, was taken by the Self Defence Unit at Flagstaff, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: What was the precise decision taken by that Self Defence Unit?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The exact decision was that we should launch a campaign where we could be in a position to show the government that really, we hate what happened.  That is the killing of comrade Chris Hani.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage was the decision made to attack white skinned people?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Can you repeat please?

CHAIRPERSON: When was the decision made to attack white skinned people?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We decided on the 11th, yes, on the 11th of April, at the time when I meet Vuyani Nyalukana, we agreed upon that.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, did you and Vuyani agree on that?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, we agreed on that.

ADV DE JAGER: Who else was part of that agreement?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Lungile Mazwi came to us, we were reinforced with him, that is another comrade.  At the time when we had already agreed with Nyalukana.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was only the two of you who decided?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, we initiated it, the two of us.

ADV DE JAGER: So the other 13 members of the SDU didn't form part of this decision?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  They didn't, other members didn't take part in that.  We initiated, myself and Vuyani Nyalukana, because we were the most prominent people there.  We were in a way, controlling the whole Unit.  The two of us.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't ask the other people, the other 13 or what the number might have been, the other members of the SDU whether they agree with you or not?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, there was no time to consult other people because it was the festive season, others were - you see they were in their respective areas, because they were not having something which would convince us, so that is the reason why we took that decision.

ADV DE JAGER: You never consulted with the others?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: With other SDU's?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  But I also want the Commission to take this into consideration, Vuyani, myself and Lungile were the members of the sub-region.  And then in our respective areas, there were the SDU's with the other members, which I assume is maybe about 15, who are not part of the sub-region and who cannot be in a position now to access the information from the people who are composing the sub-region, that maybe at Port St Johns there is this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you and the other two carry the respect of leadership within the SDU?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Can I just clarify it then?  The Self Defence Unit took a decision to launch a campaign which would convey dissatisfaction to the government?  Is that right?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: You and Vuyani and later with your fellow applicant, Lungile Mazwi, decided to translate that campaign into an attack on white skinned people?  Is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: When you took the decision to attack white skinned people, were you at all concerned about particular white skinned people or were you prepared to sacrifice any white skinned people for this campaign?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, not anyone.  Not any white people.  For that matter on the way to Port St Johns, since it was a festive season, we crossed many whites from Durban, going to their areas, we didn't attack those whites.  It is not that we were scared of them, but because we were carrying out an operation within our political scope.  We wanted to hit the white targets.

CHAIRPERSON: Being what?  Which white targets?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The one at the sub-region, that we had a report that they were infiltrating the area.

MR SMUTS: So by the time that you got to Port St Johns to consult with those who were to join your operation there, your decision was that there should be an attack on white skinned people, who were part of this rightwing infiltration, was that your decision?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say rightwing?  I don't know.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I didn't say rightwing.

MR SMUTS: Can I rephrase that, counter-revolutionary element?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Yes.  Up to that point, all you had heard regarding this counter-revolutionary infiltration was reports which were not confirmed and did not consist of established data which were emerging from the Port St Johns area, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: At the time the comrade had not yet come to us with that concrete evidence.  We went there merely on the information that they put to us.

MR SMUTS: As I understand your evidence, you had not even decided to advance this information as far as the upper echelons of MK or the ANC because it hadn't yet been confirmed?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: When you got to Port St Johns, was there any further confirmation of this information?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Nothing was confirmed, but that does not mean at the time this comrade had not yet carried out their investigation.

MR SMUTS: Are you saying that you simply don't know whether they carried out the investigation or not?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I don't know.  But we went there with that hope that at that time, they had already have that concrete evidence.

MR SMUTS: Did you ask them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, we asked them about these targets.

MR SMUTS: But to this very day, you can't say that they had confirmed it?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Come again?

MR SMUTS: I asked you a minute ago, whether you know whether they had confirmed this information and you said that you don't.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I also want to make this clear, what we wanted from this comrade, was to go and investigate the way this is planned, everything related to this counter-revolution, everything, you see.
	So, we went there after that time, with the hope that maybe some of the facts, they have already gathered at the time we went there.

MR SMUTS: Mr Maxhayi, it will go a lot more quickly, if you answer the questions.  You said to me in answer to a question, that you do not know whether the people at Port St Johns had confirmed the information regarding a counter-revolutionary infiltration?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: So, when you asked them upon your arrival at Port St Johns as to whether they had discovered any information, they obviously didn't confirm that they had confirmed information?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, let me correct you a bit.  We went there to them, we wanted them to show the targets.  We were not there for information whether there was, we were not there to collect that information.  We went there to ask them to show us these targets.  I mean these people who were involved in the revolution.
	We didn't dispute them, even initially that something of that nature was not taking place at Port St Johns, we didn't dispute them.  You see.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly, you went there just to get identification information, as to who these infiltrators are?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before Mr Smuts carries on, when the operation was put into effect, when the killing occurred, was your target still the infiltrators?