Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, before that Mr Botha told me and then I prepared, he told me how he was going to - he decided to take them to the Tugela, then I got hessian sacking and some Watcrete concrete pole standards and some wire, some binding wire and I put that in the kombi.  I then, I had pre-cut strands of wire into predetermined lengths.

MR WILLS: You had all of this equipment at this house in Verulam?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was a farmhouse.

MR WILLS: You had it all there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was all there yes.

MR WILLS: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I cut wire up in predetermined sizes and also loaded that into the kombi, then when that was all ready, we took the parties out of the house.

MR WILLS: When you say we, I want you to tell me, who did you take out?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm unable to state which member I took out, Sir.

MR WILLS: Were you all three of you involved at this stage,  or all four of  you?  By that I mean all applicants except Gen Steyn?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: Were their hands cuffed?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes they were, Sir.  They were handcuffed and blindfolded.

MR WILLS: Okay.  And where did you put them in the kombi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were led into the back of the kombi, through the sliding door, into the back of the kombi.

MR WILLS: As I understand your evidence, you weren't present at the time it was communicated to them that they were going to be moved to another safe-house.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't recall that I was present Sir, although I knew that would be the legend given to them, but I wasn't present when Mr Botha said it.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now did they show any signs when you were moving them from the room in that house to the kombi that they knew that they were going to be murdered?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, nothing visible was shown to them.  I think that they still believed that they were going to go to another house.

MR WILLS: Yes, okay, you got them into the car and who was driving the kombi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I recall van der Westhuizen drove the kombi Sir.

MR WILLS: And where did you sit?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I sat behind the people, Ndaba and Shabalala.

MR WILLS: So you sat in the third row of seats.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The third or the second, Sir, I don't know, I can't recall if the kombi had two or three rows.

MR WILLS: My understanding of a kombi, unless it's been modified, it's got a font seat, it's got a middle seat and it's got a back seat and behind the back seat is the shelf with the engine underneath and a place on the top.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's it, then I was in the middle.

MR WILLS: And where were the deceased?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were in the front.

MR WILLS: In the front with van der Westhuizen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, in the front of the back.  In the front portion.

MR WILLS: Oh, so you were in the back seat of the kombi, they were in the middle seat and van der Westhuizen was driving?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, correct.

MR WILLS: And where was Mr Botha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't recall exactly where he was in the kombi.

MR WILLS: And the other applicant?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I don't recall.  I think Botha might have been in the front with van der Westhuizen, but that's speculation.

MR WILLS: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And du Preez and I were sitting with, in the rear for sure.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And It's about an hours drive to the turn-off, maybe 15 minutes?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Chair.

MR WILLS: And what was said in the kombi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was no conversation.

MR WILLS: Now I understand this, this is when the old road was in operation?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: So there's about a 15 kilometre stretch on dirt from the turn-off at Mandini to the Tugela Mouth, might be 12 kilometres, but at least 10?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think it is, yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes, it is and what did you tell them when you were turning off the road?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, both parties were unable to see where they were going so there was no reason to say anything.

MR WILLS: You didn't pre-warn them that you were going to stop in order to relieve yourselves?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: You just turned off the tar road and turned, drove seemingly the 15 kilometres or so, or the 10 kilometres to the River Mouth on the Northern side of the Tugela River?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: And that was a dirt road, that is a dirt road still today.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think it's still a dirt road, I haven't been lately.

MR WILLS: But it was a dirt road at the time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Was there any discussion in the car with the applicants?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: What happened when  you stopped?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: When we stopped van der Westhuizen and I got out of the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I ask.  Seeing that we're trying to complete this incident by tomorrow, what the point is of repeating all the evidence in chief in cross-examination?  With great respect.  If there's a point, obviously I don't have any problem, but aren't we just wasting time,?  We're going through exactly the same evidence as he's given before Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I am asking additional questions.  I don't recall there being any questions asked about conversations taking place, who was sitting where, what was said to the parties, this is to my mind, fair in the circumstances.  This is the only evidence that the families are going to hear about the last day.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should bear that in mind Mr Visser that it was explained that it was explained that they are appearing for the families of the people and they wished to know exactly how their sons had died and we are getting.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm not getting sensitive to that but Botha also already gave the evidence.  But I leave it in your hands, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.  Must I ...

MR WILLS: Yes, you see, what I'm trying to suggest is that surely at that stage, when you told them that they must get out and relieve themselves, that any person in those circumstances would at least get a suspicion or be at least a little bit scared that something was going to happen to him then,

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it wasn't evident, perhaps both parties were apprehensive but they never stated, they never said anything and they didn't openly show anything, but I don't know what their feelings would have been at the time.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And you said that they must relieve themselves?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, we all did.

MR WILLS: Yes, did you take their handcuffs off?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, they were handcuffed in front of themselves, not at the back.

MR WILLS: So who helped them undress, or was it possible with handcuffs on?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, it's possible with handcuffs, Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: Did you take their blindfolds off?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, they remained blindfolded, Sir.

MR WILLS: You say you then led them, or somehow they got to the river bank, I'm assuming that the, I think you indicated that it was about 20 metres away from the car.  How did they get there?  Who led them there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I am of the opinion that maybe Mr du Preez and Botha perhaps led them that way.  We all went.  The two of them and the three of us, but not van der Westhuizen, he stayed with the vehicle.

MR WILLS: At all stages?