Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Radebe, it is a simple question.  He is asking you whether after the AK had been shown to them, they trusted your people?  Do you know, after it had been shown to them, whether they trusted your people or not?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It seems so, Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: Mr Radebe, my instructions are that kind of relationship having been established whereby the occupants in a shack had told them their difficulties in the township, Seleka and Magagi all went out, ostensibly to fetch firearms, more firearms for them and all that followed thereafter was just shooting.  Are you in a position to deny that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I deny that.

MR SHEZI: On what basis are you denying that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We actually approached to the house to tell them that they must come out of the house, I - that is the basis along which I disagree.

MR SHEZI: Sorry, would you repeat your answer again, sorry, I missed out something.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I disagree because these people went first into the house, before there was a shoot-out, then they had to come out.  I spoke in Zulu, I said "let us arrest them", there was then fire from inside and the window panes shattered and we returned fire.

MR SHEZI: So you told your operatives, they were all together when you said "let's arrest them", they were all together at the same time?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were all outside at the windows.  If I am not mistaken, there were two windows and a door.

MR SHEZI: So if somebody was to say Seleka and Magagi were left inside the shack when Shosha had gone out, she came back and she whispered something to them, they then went out with her, seconds later, then there was firing, what would you say to that?  There wasn't a point in time when the occupants were left alone  in a shack, they were always under guard if one could use that phrase?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I would not agree with that.

MR SHEZI: You are saying that if somebody would come and testify before this Commission to that, they would not be telling the truth?

ADV DE JAGER: As I understand correctly, at a time she went in, whispered to them and they all came out, and that was just before the shooting.  At that time, at the point of shooting, they were all outside?

MR SHEZI: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  And you put it to him that they were never left alone, but at that very moment, they were left alone?

MR SHEZI: Oh yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that correct that she called them outside and thereafter the shooting followed?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: She called them outside and I issued out an order "let us arrest them" and there was shooting.  The shooting did not take place immediately.

MR SIBANYONI: When you came to give the instruction that they must be arrested, did you come and immediately take positions and then tell them or you told them "let's arrest them", then you took positions, what happened, can you just explain that scenario?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were not in positions.

MR SIBANYONI: If you intended to arrest them, there was no need for Shosha to call the two members outside, it was supposed for you to get inside and start arresting them, what do you say to that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We must remember that we were risking, I did not want others, some of us to survive and others to be trapped, I wanted this action to take place all at the same time so that if they were nine and we were six, the three could leave and run away, we wanted to arrest them all.

MR SIBANYONI: By Shosha calling them outside, it would appear you were getting those members out of the trouble so that you can start shooting, what do you say to that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not agree to that.

MR SIBANYONI: And at the time your members were called out, there was no indication that any of the comrades were armed, is that so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Nobody told me or indicated to me that they were armed, I did not know anything about them.

MR SIBANYONI: At what stage was the AK47 removed from the shack?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Const Magagi came out of the shack in possession of an AK47, I think I did explain Chairperson, because I mentioned earlier on that he was heavily built.

MR SIBANYONI: And Seleka came out with the magazines?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not know what happened thereafter.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were emptying your guns, were you shooting through the windows, the door or throughout the shack?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were shooting even the walls because the house was built of mud.

MR SIBANYONI: Did anyone of you use the AK47 in the shooting at the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I think Magagi used an AK47.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Shezi, you can continue.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman.    Didn't you know the number of the people who were inside that shack, as to how many of them were they?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: So are you saying Shosha never told you that there are so many occupants in the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: She did not tell me.

MR SHEZI: So when you gave the order that they must be arrested, you didn't - sorry, can I finish - you didn't know how many people you were going to arrest?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I did not know, you are quite correct.

MR SHEZI: How many doors did that shack have, was it only one door where they were coming in and out or was there another one elsewhere?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There was one door and two windows if I recall well.

MR SHEZI: There was a question which was asked by members of the panel why was it necessary for you to call these other members out, why wouldn't you have just gone inside and say "you are under arrest" and arrest them?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I said we were infiltrating and infiltration differs from an arrest.  Arrest would be totally different, if we arrive, we would be told that the person that we want is not present.  Infiltration is different from arrest.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, we understand that, but now you have infiltrated them, you have gained certain information and at a stage you decide to arrest, why was it necessary to bring your people out of the shack before you arrest, why couldn't you go in and say "hands up" or whatever or go to them and arrest them?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Those of us who were outside, did not know the inside of the house, we did not know the positions of each inside the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but you had three members inside the house who knew all about, or knew the positions of the house at that stage.  Why was it necessary to bring them out?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They did not tell us how many people were inside, we did not know how many people were inside.  Each time when you arrest, you have to know whether there is a sitting room, a dining room, we did not know whether house was a kitchen or something else.  We wanted them to come out and there were others around, guarding the windows.

ADV DE JAGER: What would better your position, if you are all outside now, you still don't know whether there is a kitchen, whether there is a bathroom, whether there are how many rooms, you have brought out the only people who would know and they don't tell you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Chairperson, that is why we even spoke in Zulu "let us arrest them", we did not speak the language unknown to them.  Had we not mentioned that in Zulu, I think the bullet issue would not have taken place.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that have to do with the question?  How does it explain the question that my colleague had asked you?  Shosha who was inside the house, who had close contact with these people, were actually outside with you, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the question that was raised was, why was it necessary to get the other two out, why didn't you just go in, you are five outside, two of your people are inside, why didn't you just go inside and arrest these people if that is what you wanted to do?