Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

MR BLACK: May I just confirm that.  I didn't know that he had arrived, but I had been informed that he was on his way, thank you.    Mr Chairman, I have conferred with Mr Mojapelo, he essentially was concerned to hear the evidence in chief of Mr Nkuna, comrade Nkuna, he has a statement of comrade Nkuna and confirmed that he hasn't materially diverted from the statement.
	Mr Mojapelo confirms that he is actually representing Mr Skosana who is in these present proceedings an implicated party.  But Mr Skosana's application is before the Committee, application for amnesty that is and Mr Mojapelo asked if he personally need not attend throughout the hearing of Mr Conrad Nkuna, in order to enable him to finalise the preparations for the application for Mr Skosana which we hope to present to the Committee this afternoon and he has assured me that he does not feel the necessity at this stage to ask permission from the Committee to cross-examine Mr Conrad Nkuna as he is an implicated party and he is in possession of all the evidence to date.

CHAIRPERSON: We have no problems that he can be excused.  Did you take the liberty to indicate to or find out from Mr Mojapelo whether in the event of us finishing with Mr Nkuna's application today, we could move?

ADV PATEL: Mr Conrad Nkuna, let's continue, on this application form, paragraph C (ii), you say the occupation of the victim - ex-Regional Treasurer.  Why do you say "ex"?

CONRAD NKUNA: Because at the time of this event, he was a Regional Treasurer and when I was filling this application, it was 1996 under the new Government and I didn't know his position, his current position, this is why I wrote like that.

ADV PATEL: Now what as the objective of the attack on Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: The objective was to eliminate people who were posing danger over the ANC members since after a few years my brother who was also  a senior member of the ANC was attacked.

ADV PATEL: In this particular instance, the attack against Mr Shabangu and the real reasons for that attack, was it not because there was a fight and your Commander, that is your brother Joe Nkuna, who was attacked initially and you were in fact taking revenge?

CONRAD NKUNA: That was not revenge.  I took it that if I had to assist in such an event, I could and I would.  It was not because of the fact that it was my brother who was attacked prior to this, I was just helping as an ANC.

ADV PATEL: You were just helping as an ANC member to eliminate persons who were opposing the ANC, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.  If a request like that was uttered to me, I will take that to heart and act upon it.

ADV PATEL: How many attacks have you conducted to ensure that sellouts, informers should have been eliminated?

CONRAD NKUNA: This was the first attack.

ADV PATEL: Now, in this application you say there was a fight and our Commander, Joseph Harold Nkuna was the first to be attacked and nearly killed.
	Do you read that in your statement?  Paragraph 10 (a)?

CONRAD NKUNA: I see that.

ADV PATEL: Do you see that?  Now could you just tell the Committee a little bit more about this fight that you have noted here?

CONRAD NKUNA: This emanated from Joe Nkuna's attack within the ANC's organisation.

ADV PATEL: So the fight emanated within the ANC structure in the Province, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: May you please repeat your question?

ADV PATEL: The fight emanated within the structures of the ANC in this Province, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: I do not say that it emanated from the ANC but it emanated between the ANC and the State agents.

ADV PATEL: Was it not a fight between two groups within the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: I may so we were two groups, one within ANC but working for the Government of the day.

ADV PATEL: And the other?

CONRAD NKUNA: That was the ANC and they were collaborating with the then Government.

ADV PATEL: And that was simply based on suspicion?

CONRAD NKUNA: That was not based on suspicion as such, because the two MK members were saying that it has been discovered that the person whose house has to be attacked, is an agent.

ADV PATEL: Now it was decided to eliminate Mr Shabangu, because he was suspected as an agent?  Is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: Those people were there for that mission, they were just notifying me.  It was not decided there, they had already decided by the time they approached me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry, may I just interrupt you Mr Patel.  I don't know whether the translation is correct.  I just want to find out from Mr Nkuna if he really means approach in the sense of approaching or just a discussion or information, the exchange of information when he makes reference to the approach which he got from the two cadres.
	Does he mean an exchange of information or the approach as we are getting from the translators?

CONRAD NKUNA: We were discussing and they told me that information.

ADV PATEL: Any persons who sided with Mr Shabangu, would they also be regarded as persons to be eliminated?

CONRAD NKUNA: If it was discovered also that that person was collaborating with the police, yes, we would have been against him as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this would be a convenient point for an adjournment.

ADV PATEL: Mr Chairman, after my next question.  Would that have included Mr Shabangu's girlfriend who also needed to be eliminated?

CONRAD NKUNA: No, it had nothing to do with her.  I did not even know her, she was not even working for the ANC, we did not know her.

ADV PATEL: We can take the adjournment now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR 15 MINUTES - ON RESUMPTION: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

ADV PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Let's just turn to the attack on your brother.  By whom was your brother attacked?
ADV PATEL

CONRAD NKUNA: I don't know even to date.

ADV PATEL: Now, in your application you say your brother was nearly killed by hired assassins on the 3rd of October 1991.  Is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV PATEL: How do you know that the persons who attacked your brother were hired assassins?

CONRAD NKUNA: The way he was attacked, I believed that those people were trained.  I believe that those people, if those people were trained, he would have survived the attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry Mr Patel, I don't think I have actually got his response.  If he can just repeat his response to your question.

INTERPRETER: Yes, the speaker was not coherent?

CONRAD NKUNA: The people who attacked him, and the way the whole thing took place, we believe that if they were trained, he would have not survived the attack.

ADV PATEL: Now where did you get this information "by hired assassins"?

CONRAD NKUNA: That they were hired, the person who knows you, will never attack you because he runs a risk of being discovered.

ADV PATEL: On what basis do you say that the persons were hired.  Hired means somebody who was paid?

CONRAD NKUNA: At the time people who were being killed, it was usual that people will be hired from liberation movement at the State, they were not carrying on the operations, because they were known, but they would hire people to carry out the operation.

ADV PATEL: And you also say that we received information that Johannes, the victim we attacked, was involved in the attempt to kill our comrade and that comrade is Joe.  Where did you get that information that Johannes Shabangu was involved?

CONRAD NKUNA: May you please repeat your question?

ADV PATEL: Where did you get the information that Johannes Shabangu was involved in the attack on your brother?

CONRAD NKUNA: I got that information from Soli and Derick.

ADV PATEL: When was that?

CONRAD NKUNA: That was October 1992.

ADV PATEL: And then you go on to say we also heard that he was involved in removing the clues of that attack.  Where did you get that information that Johannes was involved in removing the clues?