Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Do you know when they were withdrawn?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

MR DREYER: What I find strange is this ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when they would have been withdrawn?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, I don't have any idea, it was completely outside my area.  Brigadier Chris was involved with training of Special Forces, therefore I did not have any knowledge thereof, I simply listened to what he had said that the Forces had to be withdrawn.
	He was ordered to do that and he had agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know for how long those people had to remain there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, are you telling the committee that this was the very first direct order which you in conjunction with all other Area Commanders had received that there would be a national revolution launched by the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If you are indicating revolution, then that is correct.

MR DREYER: I would like you to listen properly, are you telling the Committee that that call and order which you received that day was the first official call or order to a national level revolution by the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And sir, are you telling us that with the exception with the bomb explosions to which you have referred where Gen Oelofse was arrested along with others, are you telling the Committee that this national call to a revolution, all that came of that was this single incident at the Radora road.  Is that all which the AWB could muster with a national call for revolution, one incident on the Radora road?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I do not believe that you can ask me that question because I simply did that which I had been ordered to do.
	If any others had received orders, I would not be able to say because I was not present.

MR DREYER: You are now answering the question.  If you believe that Gen Oelofse in his capacity as a representatives of the AWB Generals in staff, had given a call on that day to a revolution by the AWB, are you telling us that all that came of that if that is what you are saying, if you did receive such an order, because that is the core of all of this, are you telling us that the AWB with its apparent strong support basis country wide, could muster only that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Once again, I cannot answer that question.  I performed my task for the evening, went back, reported back and waited for further orders.

MR DREYER: Very well.  We now return, is it correct that during the criminal procedures which resulted from this matter, that you testified in court ...

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Repeat the question.

MR DREYER: Is it correct that you testified during the criminal case which emanated from this incident?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Before Judge Steggman?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR DREYER: I wish to refer you to those proceedings and specifically the point which we are dealing with now, and that is whether the revolution would begin on the 12th of December?  Just grant me one moment.
	I would like to read to you that you are testifying here that you received an order that evening, that the revolution would begin on the 12th.  There was a request to postpone it to the 16th because people were deployed at Skanskop by one of the leaders, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

MR DREYER: I would like to read your testimony in the court regarding that, on page 670 of volume 8, approximately line 28.  Your testimony reads as follows:  with the Day of the Covenant the armed struggle would commence.  That is the statement which is made to you and you then answer, that was my opinion.
	Do you have any comment regarding that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As I have already stated, the revolution would have begun on the 12th of December.  If you look at the definition of revolution, unconventional war fare with planning as guerilla fighters would do it in small groups, the revolution may have begun on the 16th of December, but I performed my tasks in Randfontein as a guerilla fighter.

MR DREYER: Can you please be of assistance to us then.  According to your testimony because here you personally testified during these proceedings, what is the difference between an armed struggle and a revolution, could you indicate that to us?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: An armed struggle does differ from a revolution.  A revolution originates as it is set out in phase 1 if we can consult phase 1, page 11.

MR DREYER: Is a revolution a struggle without weapons?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, not necessarily.

MR DREYER: How does it differ from an armed struggle?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: An armed struggle is similar to what happened in Israel for six days on end, where a revolution originated if we did not achieve what we wanted to, we sit back and wait for the next day.

MR DREYER: I am sorry, I do not understand the difference which you are trying to draw between the two, but we will leave it at that.
	Do you agree that this was your testimony during the criminal procedures, that the armed struggle according to your opinion, would commence on the 16th of December, do you agree?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Then I would like to refer you to page 683 ...

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, I would just like to ensure that I understand Mr Dreyer's question and your answer.
	You understood that the revolution would begin on the 12th and that the armed struggle would begin on the 16th?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Even if it had begun on the 16th and had been going on on the 16th, I wouldn't have known, but all I knew was that the revolution would begin on the 12th of December 1993.

MR MALAN: But the question which Mr Dreyer asked you is that you testified during the criminal proceedings, that you expected the armed struggle or the war to begin on the 16th and he asked you whether or not that was correct, and you said yes?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I understand what you are saying. I would like to say that during the criminal procedures that you should not refer to it, that you should refer only to what had been submitted, because I had been told by Mr Oelofse to answer only certain things during those proceedings to protect him and to protect the movement.
	So you could refer me to the home made shotguns which I received from Mr Fourie, which I did not receive from Mr Fourie.  And that is why I request that you do not refer back to the criminal proceedings.

MR MALAN: Mr Kloppers, I am afraid that we all have to live with our past, Mr Dreyer, please proceed.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, can you please tell us in which way in terms of the last answer, would you have protected any member of the top structure of the AWB if it had been said that the war would have begun on the 16th of December, how would that have helped to protect anybody?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would like to mention to the Chairperson, that while you have that explanation in front of you, you must understand that I was experiencing a great deal of pain during that time, that I had been tortured and that I had made that statement while undergoing torture.
	The entire justice system had been overbridged, and therefore I do not understand what happened during those statements.  I stood there like a fool, and that was how I felt.