Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   I don't remember that.

WILSON J: /And then

WILSON J: And then when you gave evidence you said you stabbed once only.

WITNESS:   Yes.  If I am saying that I was an onlooker, then I am saying that I stabbed once, then there is contradictions which I cannot understand, or I cannot hear your question clearly.

WILSON J: Going back a little.  Where did you see Mxenge for the first time that afternoon?

WITNESS:   I did not see him in the evening - or during the day.

WILSON J: Weren't you waiting outside his office?  Didn't you see his car there, and didn't you follow his car?

WITNESS:   No.

WILSON J: So that evidence that we heard this morning was untrue?

WITNESS:   The evidence given by me or whom?

WILSON J: The previous witness, Nofomela.

WITNESS:   I am not sure if he said that.  He might have mentioned that I was present while they were following him.

WILSON J: All four of you - all four of you were together all the time, weren't you?

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, my recollection of the evidence this morning was not that they followed the car.  They went to the house on a rainy day on the hill and they waited there.  They saw the car of Mrs Mxenge, the red Audi, leave the premises of the house, and then the other car approached.

WILSON J: That's him, not the previous witness.

WITNESS:   Yes, there is contradictions because of the offices and going to places.  Then it seems there is no relation.  If you are saying I went there ... (intervention)

WILSON J: The previous witness said, "On the day of the killing we went to his place of work.  It was time to go home.  His car was still there.  Brian Ngulungwa knew the

WILSON J: /"area well.

WILSON J: area well.  We drove after him.  We got to his house first and parked near there and waited for him."  You remember that?

WITNESS:   Even if he have said that I don't think he mentioned that I was there, because in my evidence I've said that they picked me up somewhere else, not that I went with them to the office.

WILSON J: This is when they went and picked up Mr Griffiths Mxenge.  He told us that, "Brian and David stopped the car.  Joe had a pistol.  I had a Makaroff.  He asked if he could help, and we then drove him to Umlazi Stadium" ... (inaudible)

WITNESS:   When saying in that way they are talking of the place where we went and wait for him, and there is no relation with going to the office.  That is something from Umlazi.

CHAIRPERSON: I know this incident happened a long time ago.  I want you to tell me about your movements on that day with your colleagues.  Where was it that you met that afternoon?

WITNESS:   Well, I am not clear.  Are you asking me as to what - I am not clear.  Could you repeat your question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Where on that afternoon, the afternoon when Mr Mxenge was killed, where was it that the four of you met together?

WITNESS:   I can't remember exactly.  It was during the day, but I can't remember exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the four of you go to the office or the area where the office was, Mr Mxenge's office?

WITNESS:   Well, I can say that on my previous statement I said I can't remember exactly, although there was a place where we went round and I saw his office.  Well, including his photo.  That is what I said previously.  Not that on a specific day we went straight to these other people to the office.

CHAIRPERSON: /Just answer

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question.  After you had visited the area where Mr Mxenge had his office what did you do?

WITNESS:  You mean when I had gone to where Mxenge was?  When?  What time exactly, in the evening or during the day?

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about the time when you went in the afternoon, I understand, to Mr Mxenge's - to the place where Mr Mxenge had his office.

WITNESS:   Well, nothing in particular happened.  We were just travelling as a usual routine.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr Mxenge leave his office?

WITNESS:   No.

CHAIRPERSON: From there where did you and your colleagues go to?

WITNESS:   Well, we were just moving up and down without any specific direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, eventually where did you get to?

WITNESS:   Finally we eventually - or during the time when we were about the execute Mxenge?

CHAIRPERSON: Before executing him did you go to his house?

WITNESS:  No, we didn't go to the other place.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you have difficulty with the interpreters, but please tell us.  I have some difficulty in understand your evidence.  The four of you go to the area in the afternoon where Mr Mxenge's office is.  You then drive around.  My question is, after driving around where did you go to?

WITNESS:   Yes.  I am saying that from there we were just travelling up and down.  I cannot say exactly where we went to.  That is what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not reach the area where Mr Mxenge's house is?

WITNESS:   No, I didn't go specifically.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Didn't you say that on the day Mr Mxenge was killed it was four of you.  It was drizzling a little bit, and you went up to the house which was up the hill, and at

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /some stage

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: some stage you referred to a red - I thought you said Passat - and that you were told that it was his wife's car.  Isn't that what you told us?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is what I said, but what I am saying is I think there's contradiction, because I don't know exactly whether it has to do with during the day in the office or the evening part.  I don't know exactly which part you are looking for.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, I don't accept that.  I don't understand your difficulty, because I've led you from the time that you watched where Mr Mxenge's office was, it was time to leave.  You drove around, and you seem to have difficult in explaining to us how you arrived in the area where Mr Mxenge's house is.

WITNESS:   All right, let me put it this way.  Well, I just want to try and explain in full detail.  I realise that we might not be on the same vein.  What I am saying is during the day when we were just travelling up and down I saw the office.  Myself in particular I didn't go to the place where Mxenge used to live.  During the time when I went to see the house was in the evening, during the time when this execution took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the four of you get there together?

WITNESS:   Yes, we all went there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived at the house Mr Mxenge hadn't yet arrived.

WITNESS:   Yes.  That was before - we didn't reach the house exactly, we were just in the neighbourhood.  That is where we saw the red car, the station wagon red car.  I think it was a Volkswagen, a Passat or something like that, which was just being driven down the hill.  What I heard was that it was Mrs Victoria Mxenge's car.

CHAIRPERSON: /And then

CHAIRPERSON: And then I think - well, I can't remember very well.  We went round and then went to the other places.  That is when, not long, another car arrived.  That was going towards the direction of Mxenge.  Then that is where Almond stopped the bakkie in which we were travelling right in the middle of the road, and he opened the bonnet.  And then the car which was coming from behind - I don't know exactly whether it was Brian who said, "This is the man we are looking for," and the car stopped at the back because there was no other space in which it could pass on the side because the way was not very broad.  So that is where they said - he asked if at all there was a problem, and they said, "No, well apparently the car doesn't want to start," and they were asking for the jumpers.

CHAIRPERSON: About what time was all that?

WITNESS:   In the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: What time?

WITNESS:   I'm afraid I can lie.  I cannot say exactly what time it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it dark already?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was late evening.

MR DE JAGER: Did you take the dagger from Almond?