Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

MR VALLY: Yes, that's all I'm getting from you.  And that was mandrax, that wasn't anything else.

DR KNOBEL: In order to extract from it ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: But it was mandrax.  You were aware of some projects codenamed Baxil.

DR KNOBEL: That's true.

MR VALLY: Which you didn't know what it was.

DR KNOBEL: I knew that it was a substance from which they were going to produce an incapacitating agent.

MR VALLY: You knew it was a substance which Doctor Mijburgh amongst others was seriously concerned about, may have led to him being prosecuted to the effect that ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: When did I testify that Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: You said so in a letter where you assure him that: "From the point of delivery, I'll protect you from prosecution".

DR KNOBEL: But the ground substance was a controlled substance and that he had to have the assurance that he could not be prosecuted if he dealt with that and I gave a very clear indication in the answer, under which circumstances we were prepared to give that kind of immunity.

MR VALLY: So you were at least aware that there was mandrax involved at some stage?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, I did know that methaqualone and mandrax had the same ground substance.

MR VALLY: You were at least aware that this substance, codename Baxil which we now know to be ecstasy, was giving rise to concern, giving, sorry, raising concern of prosecution by the people who are responsible for manufacturing it.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: To the extent where they asked you for indemnity.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: We've put to you - well let me tell you a third thing that you may be aware of, you may be aware of the fact that it was, and we're talking methaqualone, was a restricted substance whereby you had to resort to all sorts of subterfuge to source it from Croatia?  If it was a perfectly legal substance which would be freely obtained on the market, why would you go through the that subterfuge.

DR KNOBEL: No, Mr Vally, I don't exactly know what you mean by subterfuge but you are quite correct if you say that I had known that it was a controlled substance that couldn't just be bought off the shelf in Croatia.

MR VALLY: Fine.  We've asked before and I repeat that, did you have any scientific basis for believing that these substances could be used as safe forms of crown control?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: What is your scientific basis?

DR KNOBEL: If you look at the comments of the Americans and the British on our programme, you will see after they were given a briefing they comment that those substances have been studied as incapacitants and they accepted as being legitimate studies for incapacitants.  They are after all the world experts.

MR VALLY: We're talking about production, we're not talking about studies, we're not talking about experiments.

DR KNOBEL: No, no, no, I'm also talking about production Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: So you're saying that the Americans and the British have in retrospect felt you were justified in your experiments and your production or methaqualone and what we now know to be ecstasy.

DR KNOBEL: No, Sir, what we now know to be a ground substance for a possible incapacitating agent.  The Americans in their comment on our programme calls it a very sophisticated programme of a sophistication which they've only found in the Russian programme elsewhere.

MR VALLY: We've heard that before.  We've also heard scientists before us saying that scientifically and we've had our experts saying that it is pretty pathetic from a scientific point of view, the whole programme.

DR KNOBEL: Listen Mr Vally, quite frankly you, I don't agree with you.  There is in this country not an expert on Chemical and Biological Warfare that can give that kind of comment, and I'm not saying that in a derogatory sense to Professor Folb, I have a lot of regard for him as a person, but he is not an expert in Chemical and Biological Warfare.
 However, Don Marley and Graham Pearson that was part of the team that came in to look at our programme, they are world experts and they have accepted it and they have put it in writing.

MR VALLY: Your knowledge of Chemical and Biological Warfare we know ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: But that was not the point.

MR VALLY: Yes.  No, that's fine.  The sole basis of reporting on what the developments in our Chemical and Biological Warfare programme for you was Brigadier Basson.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: You're saying that because of this demarche, and remember the first demarche was to tell the then President, President de Klerk, we don't want these things to fall into the hands of the ANC.

DR KNOBEL: Correct.

MR VALLY: The second demarche to President Mandela was: "You don't know what these guys have been doing behind your back, be aware of it and destroy it".

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: So their motives are questionable.

DR KNOBEL: That is true.

MR VALLY: I also want to put to you ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: Their political motives.

MR VALLY: The demarche was a political act.

DR KNOBEL: Exactly.  But I'm talking about two scientists that I had a discussion with where we discussed the assessment of our programme.

MR VALLY: You know you have scientists General Knobel, and you have scientists and scientists working for government as part of a political delegation have got their own interests and are acting on instructions.

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, I think you're making an assumption here which may not be founded.

MR VALLY: Fair enough.

DR KNOBEL: Those two scientists are still very much involved in the international arena in terms of defining the lists of substances in terms of the Convention, they are very much involved in looking at inspections, at ratifications, at the schedules of the Convention, they are internationally respected scientists in the field of Chemical and Biological defence or Chemical and Biological Warfare.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we should really get into a ideological debate about what informs scientists.  I mean, if the same demarche was when the previous government were persuading that government that it would be inopportune, to put it at its lowest, for that sort of technology to fall into the hands of what they considered to be a terrorist organisation.  And when exactly that organisation is in power, they consider it expedient to advise them that that programme must be scrapped and must be destroyed.  It doesn't really need a genius to determine that those people are not independent.  I have never believed in any event that there are people who are totally independent, even scientists are not, they're informed by their own ...[indistinct] elections.  But I don't think we should enter that debate.  You've made your point and Mr Vally has made his point.

DR KNOBEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: My next item that I want to put to you is that when you were advised by Doctor Jan Lourens of the instruments which inject poison, which he says he had been instructed to make by Brigadier Basson who was your project officer for Project Coast which also involved the making of poisons.  Your response was that it wasn't your project, it wasn't under your project and therefore it wasn't a matter of your concern.

DR KNOBEL: No, I said more than that.  I said I don't know about it and I don't want to know about it, that's what I said Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Fair enough.

DR KNOBEL: I've already testified to that effect.

MR VALLY: What I'm putting to you is that that was an irresponsible position to take in view of the fact that you had facilities as Project Manger and that your Project Officer was involved in development of toxins and he, your Project Officer, Brigadier Basson, had in fact allegedly instructed Doctor Lourens to make those items.