Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't comment on that.

MR WILLIAMS: Now if Col Verster would have said that:  "I have information that Q-Town Youth Movement are going to cause a fire in Khayelitsha", don't you think he would have disclosed that to this Committee?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Me?

MR WILLIAMS: No, no, Col Verster would have told this Committee that he also gathered intelligence or he also obtained information .

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I believe he would.

MR WILLIAMS: And also would you agree with me that your testimony that the CCB had an intelligence structure within the organisation, is new testimony to this Committee?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I don't know.  My impression is that we had our own Intelligence structure.

MR WILLIAMS: Within the organisation?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Within the CCB.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Verster's testimony was that they relied on information from the SAP and other structures outside the CCB.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he mentioned Military Intelligence as well and even the Security - I mean the Special Forces had their own Intelligence branch.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is the, to put it that way, the Intelligence table is the Intelligence structure of the CCB.  I just want to correct something, Verster and Gen Webb testified that it is derived from other channels and put into the pipeline of the Intelligence channel of the CCB.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, no I would not allow him to go into detail on these aspects but I want to put this question - these following questions to you.  Is your testimony that Mr Slang van Zyl received information from an informer and that that information was in fact processed and confirmed, is that your testimony?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now when you testified in chief, you said for example information - you received information about Dullah Omar.  That information was verified.  You received information from Roskam, that information was verified.  you received information about I think it's the printing press, that was verified.  In your testimony-in-chief you never said that you received, or the organisation received information about Kewtown Youth Movement and that information was verified.  Can you explain the omission in your testimony-in-chief?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't - if you could perhaps just remind me?

MR WILLIAMS: Explicitly in your testimony when you started to testify, you said you received information on the ground about Minister Omar, that information was processed, it was verified, it was confirmed and in the instance of Roskam, that was confirmed and the burning of the printing press, or the existence of the printing press, that was also confirmed.  Now if you meant to convey to the Committee at that stage that the information about the Kewtown Youth Movement was confirmed, you would have told that to the Committee at that stage in your evidence-in-chief, not so?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Why didn't you do that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Because it was through Mr Verster, or it was verified by Verster.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Williams is getting at, Mr Burger, evidence-in-chief means that section of your evidence when Mr du Plessis was asking you questions before you were cross-examined by the other legal representatives when you were giving your version.  What Mr Williams is saying, when you were giving your evidence-in-chief, you said all the information relating to Mr Omar and Roskam and those other names, projects he's mentioned, that was received from the ground, was verified by the Intelligence structure, but you didn't, when you were giving your evidence-in-chief say that the information relating to KTY, Kewtown Youth was verified.  Now he's asking you, why didn't you say that it was verified when you were giving your evidence-in-chief, that is the question.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember whether it was done.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you, you didn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you can't remember whether it was verified or what?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember whether it was verified, but there was information from Mr Verster's side which was additional to the intelligence we got from van Zyl.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you know that the applications of various of the applicants contained a whole host of accusations regarding the Kewtown Youth Movement.  Do you know or do you not know whether or not that information was verified?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Can you repeat your question please?

MR WILLIAMS: There are allegations that the Kewtown Youth Movement were responsible for X, Y, Z, do you know whether that information was confirmed or verified by the Intelligence structures or not?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: You don't know whether or not it was confirmed.  Okay, I will leave it at that.  Let us just turn to the issue of who controlled the funds within Region 6?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: At the structure of the CCB's office, there was a financial person.

MR WILLIAMS: What's the name of this person?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: But did you ever deal with that person?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Who would have dealt with that person?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The co-ordinator.

MR WILLIAMS: That's Mr Basson?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Basson.

MR WILLIAMS: Now in terms of your own administrative arrangements, before that person would release funds, say for example to pay Gakkie R18 000 or R30 000, who's approval would he need on your documentation?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well the co-ordinator and myself, according to the in-house procedures, must get authorisation from the Chairperson and Mr Verster would ratify it by signing for it.

MR WILLIAMS: Now for each and every operation or project, would he need the signature of the, not the Chairman, Mr Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Could he release funds without the signature of Mr Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know, according to the structure no.  Mr Verster was the Managing Director.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words before funds were released with regard to any project, Mr Verster should have known about it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now we've heard evidence and I think you also said that you know about the Anton Roskam incident.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know whether or not funds were released as a result of that project?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Who authorised the project?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Verster.

MR WILLIAMS: Now were you here when Mr Verster testified and maybe I should refer you ...

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he was here.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, then I'll put it to you that the testimony of Mr Verster was that he did not know about the project.  He came to learn about it through newspaper clippings some time after.

MR WESSELS: No, I don't think that was the evidence of Mr Verster.  I think Mr van Eck asked him some questions on that and he said that he couldn't remember whether he had authorised that.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say I can't, sitting here now, recall exactly what the evidence was.  I'd have to look at the record on that point.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, can I just quickly refer to the record page 388?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Williams, page 388, that's the evidence of Mr van Zyl.

MR WILLIAMS: Verster.

CHAIRPERSON: 388?  Oh is it the typed page 388, or what?  Oh that's our transcript.  He's being questioned by Mr Hockey?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have the - it's page 388 of our transcript.

MR WILLIAMS: Ja, maybe if you can just read ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: They're still just trying to find it Mr Williams.  Could you indicate more or less the line that you want?

MR WILLIAMS: The third Hockey.

CHAIRPERSON: Right at the top.