Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: The point I wish to reach is that the person you took out of the vehicle was he still cuffed?  And we know now that this was Mr Mkhonto.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How was he cuffed?  Behind his back?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, behind his back.  I said yesterday that he was cuffed behind his back.

UNKNOWN: Now, you put him into your vehicle?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me, Mr van Zyl, was it just his arms that were cuffed?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
	Now you load him into your vehicle.  Is he in front or on the back seat?  Left behind you or right behind you?

MR J VAN ZYL: Right behind me, as I remember.

UNKNOWN: Now you drive to the point where you are going to kill him.  Do you wish to look at the chart and indicate where you took him to, to which place?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, on this chart, it was opposite the tar road, on the Northern side of the township.  But I cannot indicate the precise point.

UNKNOWN: On the map they indicate it as "A".  I want to know if that's correct.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: How long does it take you from the point where you loaded him into your vehicle to point "A"?

MR J VAN ZYL: About ten, fifteen minutes.

UNKNOWN: And is the vehicle's windows rolled up while you are driving?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember, I assume that mine was open.
	I drove slowly, when I got to this part, because I was looking for the appropriate place.  I knew the place better than I know it now.  It was a bushy area. And it was more deserted at that time.  I don't know why I went there, but it was the point where I was looking for...

UNKNOWN: Were the doors locked while you drove?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, the child locks were engaged, if I recall correctly.  Yes it was locked.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me, if the child locks are engaged, can you open the door from the outside?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And is this in respect of all three doors?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't remember of the other doors, except for the two doors behind.  The two rear doors.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, the weapon that was used.  Where is this weapon at this stage?

MR J VAN ZYL: The weapon was just behind my feet.

UNKNOWN: How do you think it happened that Mr Mkhonto got the cuffs in front of him and you did not realise this?  And if I say in front of him, that he was not cuffed behind his back but in front of him.

MR J VAN ZYL: I was driving slowly at that point and it was bad part, and I was concentrating on the path and he did this without me being aware of this.

UNKNOWN: Did you speak to Mr Mkhonto while you drove from where you picked him up to where you killed him?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't remember if I spoke to him.

UNKNOWN: And the next moment what happened?

MR J VAN ZYL: He grabbed me at the throat from behind with both of his hands.  And he pulled me back against the backrest and we were driving at this stage.
	I tried to get his hands away from my throat by pushing up, but he had me with the cuff in a strong grip and then I braked and stopped and in the same movement, I took the weapon from under the chair and I wanted to hit him with it.  I don't know how many times I hit him with it, but eventually I shot him.

UNKNOWN: I'm not sure about this version in respect of the total of shots, but it seems to me that there were more than two shots fired in this incident.

MR J VAN ZYL: It was not submitted as such.  I said that it was an instinctive action and I recall that it was close to two shots.  I said that because the empty shells would have gone up or out the window.  That's the only explanation I can give why two shells were outside.  I cannot remember the shots.

UNKNOWN: When you say you can't remember, do you exclude this totally...

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I cannot exclude this totally.

UNKNOWN: It's possible that a third or fourth shot was fired?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I don't know of a fourth shot.  It's difficult to say.  I know of two shots that I fired..

UNKNOWN: But one of the shots at least were shot in the vehicle from a short distance?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.  While I had the weapon against his body.

UNKNOWN: By the way, what type of clothes were you wearing during this operation?

MR J VAN ZYL: I had a khaki jacket and jeans and a normal shirt.

UNKNOWN: And the other persons involved in this operation.  What were they wearing?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't remember.

UNKNOWN: And when the shot went off, to the best of your knowledge, was there any blood?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not when the shot was fired, I don't know of it, it was dark.  I immediately got his hands off me and I jumped out on the right hand side of the vehicle and pulled open his door and jerked him out of the car.
	And later I found blood on the seat, which I washed off at the Brighton Police Station.

UNKNOWN: That's one other aspect I want to get.  The blood marks that you are talking about that's the stain that came about by the shot that you fired in the car?

MR J VAN ZYL: I assume so.

UNKNOWN: And how did you clean it?

MR J VAN ZYL: I took water and soap, but it didn't work properly and at a later stage, I tried to clean it again.  There was always a slight stain.

UNKNOWN: Then you linked up with the black group?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, I went to pick them up and took them back to New Brighton to leave the vehicle there, and they came with me.

UNKNOWN: And their vehicle - you left this at New Brighton Police Station.  Just a few blocks from where we are now?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

UNKNOWN: And you took them back to where Mr Mkhonto lay and you set Mr Mkhonto's corpse alight, you and the others?  After the corpse was stabbed with knives.
	Can I just ask you, where did these knives come from?  With which the corpse was stabbed?

MR J VAN ZYL: The blacks always had knives with them.

UNKNOWN: Did they have these knives with them by accident?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I didn't warn them about knives beforehand.

UNKNOWN: And your knife, what happened to your knife?

MR J VAN ZYL: I had a few knives that I have given away since...

UNKNOWN: That's the other aspect which I wish to cover, how many knives did you have with you at this operation?

MR J VAN ZYL: Just one.

UNKNOWN: Just one knife?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now you move back to the original place, that's point "D" and "E" on the map.  Is that correct?  Would you like to look at it?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

UNKNOWN: I do not want to refer to all the details, can I just tell you broadly?
	The rest of these activists were killed gruesomely in respect that they were stabbed several times with knives.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now, Mr van Zyl, I assume that it was a bloody operation.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it was.

UNKNOWN: In fact it cannot be otherwise if we accept your version that some of these blacks must have been bloodstained quite badly after the operation was completed.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, it was dark most of the time, I cannot comment on that.

UNKNOWN: It can't be any other way.  Do you concede it?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it's possible.

UNKNOWN: And after completion of the operation, these three black members got into your vehicle with you and you drove back and you say you arrived at the police station just as it was getting light.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's not what I said, I said when we finished the operation, I saw the vehicle in the outside light of New Brighton, and then it got a little bit lighter.  I remember when I was driving to my office it was lighter.

UNKNOWN: When you arrived at the police station, where did you go to then?

MR J VAN ZYL: Inside.

UNKNOWN: I am talking about the entrance.

MR J VAN ZYL: At the main entrance.  Parking was behind.

UNKNOWN: And I assume there were people at the police station?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's possible.  I cannot remember this.  There are always cars at the gate.