Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Coetzee very simply just listen to my questions.  If there was no significance about the stop-over in Ermelo why do you remember that it was mentioned?

DIRK COETZEE: Because the car was handed over to the Ermelo Branch to be taken care of and taken through to Swaziland.

MR BOOYENS: So now you do remember detail of the stop-over in Ermelo, they must have had contact with the Security branch in Ermelo?

DIRK COETZEE: I've said it in the chief when Mr Moosa asked me I said that they disposed of - they left the car for Ermelo, Chris Deetlefs and Chris Rorich to dispose of.

MR BOOYENS: No Mr Coetzee just now when I asked you I said to you, I said the stop-over could have been as insignificant to buy a meat pie or put in petrol you said yes, you don't remember any detail about it and now you are changing your story.  What must we accept?

DIRK COETZEE: No that was a possibility you put.  I can only say to the Committee what Mr van Rensburg told me.  So if it is put to me that Mr van Rensburg could have stopped over for a meat pie, he could have stopped over for a meat pie.  I can't argue with it.  I can go on what he said.

MR BOOYENS: Let's stop playing clever games Mr Coetzee.  Did Mr van Rensburg tell you that he stopped over in Ermelo, is that why you remember the stop-over in Ermelo?

DIRK COETZEE: That he met up with the Ermelo guys and the car was handed over.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, when I asked you that question and suggested to you that it could have been so unimportant that they stopped for a meat pie or petrol why didn't you say no, not that, they must have met Rorich and Deetlefs there? Improvising Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: No, no.  I was asked Mr Chairman whether it's possible that they could have stopped for a meat pie and what else.  It is possible.

MR BOOYENS: Very well Mr Coetzee let's leave the meat pie and the stop-overs for the time being.
	Let's come to the discussion, the alleged discussion and perhaps I should put it on record now that it's not said later that I didn't put my defence to you.  You have been sitting here in any case, except yesterday, most of the time, so you know what - you have heard the evidence of van Rensburg and du Plessis in any case.

DIRK COETZEE: I have heard the denials Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You have heard the denials.  So dealing very briefly van Rensburg you know denies that he met up with you, spoke to you and well - the other point of dispute seems to be the presence or absence of Roy Otto.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.  As far as the last part is concerned I can just perhaps point ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee don't make speeches, please.

DIRK COETZEE: Oh okay, sorry.

MR BOOYENS: Just answer the questions.  Now let's deal with the discussion in Port Elizabeth between you and Nick van Rensburg.  You had stolen the Audi as you say, which is denied and you walked through a garage where you saw a motor car standing?

DIRK COETZEE: I walked past the garage of which Mr van Rensburg opened the door, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You then walked into the single quarters and you saw the man that you later recognised as Sizwe Kondile?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, or the man who arrived at Komatipoort when we

MR BOOYENS: Well we know it's, I think we can accept it's Sizwe Kondile now.

CHAIRPERSON: Could accept that he didn't recognise him as Sizwe Kondile and it was later learnt to be Sizwe Kondile.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, yes, I am trying to keep this as short as possible Mr Chairman.
	Mr Coetzee you say you and Mr van Rensburg thereafter discussed this whole issue as to how you were going to kill him, etc, etc.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And I am going to try and telescope your discussion, just dealing with the main events.
	Number one, there is problem, the man has got a head injury, we're heading for a second Biko, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, according to Mr van Rensburg.

MR BOOYENS: No, no I am not saying it's true.

MR BOOYENS: Number two, we want to get rid of him.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Have you got any suggestions Dirk Coetzee, Mr Dirk Coetzee says yes well let's kill him at Komatipoort?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, and burn the body.

MR BOOYENS: And burn the body.  I know it's telescoped Mr Coetzee, was that the sum total of your discussion?

DIRK COETZEE: In short, with the vehicle being taken through to Swaziland to give the impression that he's fleeing the country.

MR BOOYENS: That's right.  Your recollection of the vehicle that you saw is blue or green.

DIRK COETZEE: I think if one checks on the Harms evidence you will see I say, I think it was either light blue or light green.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, never mind the Harms Commission.

DIRK COETZEE: I wasn't sure about the colour.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  Mr Coetzee could it not be that you in fact saw such a vehicle there but that was never Mr Kondile's vehicle and his vehicle was still up in Bloemfontein.  Datsun motor vehicles are a penny a dozen.

DIRK COETZEE: It was specifically put to me by Mr van Rensburg that the car belonged to the detainee, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And for what earthly reason, if the detainee had been - did he perhaps explain to you what the car was doing there?

DIRK COETZEE: No not at that stage Mr Chairman.  I came to some conclusions but yes, at that stage not ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Forget the conclusions.  At some stage it was explained to you what the car was doing there, wasn't it?

DIRK COETZEE: It was Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: By who, Nick van Rensburg?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now give us the explanation that Nick van Rensburg gave you.

DIRK COETZEE: That the detainee was officially released, taken to Bloemfontein to collect his car and he was thereafter kidnapped on the road and brought back to Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: So this whole elaborate scheme was just to go and collect a motor car?

DIRK COETZEE: To release Mr Kondile and collect his vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: No, but the whole elaborate scheme of releasing the detainee was just to go and collect a motor car it sounds to me.  That's the way I understand it.

DIRK COETZEE: The detainee was released, his property handed to him and he was allowed to leave and he was abducted on the road and brought back to Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: Well where was he released, in Bloemfontein?

DIRK COETZEE: I wasn't filled in in detail, in the Harms Commission the counsel for the applicants, Mr Maritz, has put it to me that he was taken to Bloemfontein, released, his car handed to him and he was free to go.  It's in this bundle Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But Mr Coetzee never mind what Sam Maritz put to you and never mind what was said at the Harms Commission.  We know what the true facts are now.  We know that Sizwe Kondile was detained here and we know that he was released here.  So that release, ostensible release on the 10th of - that whole elaborate scheme would be just to go and collect a motor car in Bloemfontein.  Is that what you are really suggesting that's what Nick van Rensburg did?

DIRK COETZEE: I don't understand the question specifically but what I can just tell you what I've heard and what was put to me in the Harms Commission Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Look ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee but can we accept what was put to you in the Harms Commission is today common knowledge that it wasn't the truth?

DIRK COETZEE: Well Mr Chairman listening to the evidence I am now not sure whether was he in fact released as indicated in Bloemfontein on the 10th of August and when his car landed to him, and free, as it was put by his counsel then, to leave.  Or was he released at Jeffrey's Bay as was testified before this Committee I can't comment on that.