Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: And there wasn't a Volksfront then was there?

GEORGE BIZOS: There will be evidence to the contrary to that of Mr Derby-Lewis'.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on.

GEORGE BIZOS: No I beg your pardon, this was in 1990 that the - I beg your pardon, no I must apologise, this was said in 1990 and I will accept - and I withdraw the question, this is quite correct, I was thinking of the time of Mr Hani's death.  But that is correct, I didn't realise that.  I may say Mr Chairman that we had no notice that this witness would be called and I haven't - I have been looking at the documents cursorily whilst I am asking the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr - well let me just put this.  Mr Venter I am going to, we are going to submit to the Committee that you obviously know much more and had many more things to do with Mr Derby-Lewis than you are prepared to admit having regard to the contradictions in your evidence.

FAAN VENTER: That would be absolutely untrue.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Mr Venter you recall the Committee member, Justice Wilson, asked you as to how could you take a firearm to a person who was unknown to you and you said Clive Derby-Lewis had told you that he trusted that person and you took Clive's word.  Do you remember that?

FAAN VENTER: No I don't.  I didn't say that Clive trusted that person.  I said I accepted that if Clive told me to take the pistol to a specific person that it was natural to me that he trusted the person.  I didn't say Clive had said so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright, I stand corrected.  So it was natural that he trusted that person in such a way that you could even take the pistol to him without even having to hide to him that it was a pistol?

FAAN VENTER: Correct, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now why was it necessary then to use a code and to refer to the pistol as a jersey if he trusted that person?

FAAN VENTER: I wouldn't know that.  As I said I didn't know and I don't know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You don't know why you had to call it a jersey?

FAAN VENTER: No I don't.

JUDGE WILSON: But I think you have told us that you called it a jersey because Derby-Lewis told you to.

FAAN VENTER: That is correct, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Well you remember because you have been reminded by the Judge now, okay.
	Had Clive asked for a weapon from you before this particular incident?

FAAN VENTER: I don't understand the question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Had he in the past asked for any other firearm, in the past before this particular firearm?

FAAN VENTER: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now during the two year period when you had lost contact with him what were you doing then?  Were you tactically involved in the CP activities or not?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I was involved in CP activities but in another ward, Mr Piet de la Rey's ward, in Delarey.  I didn't have anything to do with Mr Derby-Lewis at this stage.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you told this Committee that he, Clive asked for this firearm at the very first meeting after two years when you had made an appointment with him, is that correct?

FAAN VENTER: Yes that is so, but he knows me well.  Whether we hadn't seen each other for two years it doesn't matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.  Besides talking about you wanting to know about the CP local activities what other things did you discuss with him?

FAAN VENTER: I can't remember that I discussed anything else with him, I specifically went there to report that I would be joining up with the CP there, perhaps see how things were, just small talk, but I can't remember specifically it's four years ago Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you can remember specifically four years ago that he asked for a firearm?

FAAN VENTER: That's very difficult to forget Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see. What had actually prompted him to talk to you about a firearm?

FAAN VENTER: I wouldn't know. It's quite possible that the general discussion regarding our problems, the slogans of "kill a farmer, kill a boer", etc gave rise and this is only human that it would reasonably be so.  This is why perhaps it gave reason - to the discussion I can't remember the exact words.  I can't repeat, as I say it's too long ago.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  For how long had this firearm been in your possession?

FAAN VENTER: From 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you have to keep this unlicensed firearm?

FAAN VENTER: Well I kept it for the same reason, with a view to the problems ahead, but the thing was actually just in my way and I was only too glad to get rid of it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you disclose this to Clive that you are also keeping it for the same reasons?

FAAN VENTER: I probably did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there any call by the CP to stockpile and to keep firearms?

FAAN VENTER: No the CP is a legal organisation and wouldn't have demanded things like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but what had made you then to start keeping an unlicensed firearm?

FAAN VENTER: As I said it was the general condition of the country, we all knew that problems were coming, we didn't know the scope and when, and it was quite simply that I thought it was obvious in the light of statements that had been made, threats that had been made etc, and I think it is quite reasonable that I expected problems in the future.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Venter didn't you have your own licensed firearm?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I had a number of licensed firearms.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many?

FAAN VENTER: At that stage I had three.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you felt three licensed firearms were not enough, you had to get another one?

FAAN VENTER: Could the question perhaps be repeated.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You thought three licensed firearms were not sufficient to be used by you.

FAAN VENTER: Three were enough.  The other one was given to me as a gift and I kept it in case I needed it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Venter do you want this Committee to believe that Clive just out of the blue, just when you were talking about the general problems in the area, just started asking you for a firearm without any prior discussions that led to that, any prior specific discussions that led to him asking for a firearm?

FAAN VENTER: I think he felt free to do so because I knew him well enough.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he know that you would be able to provide a firearm, an unlicensed firearm?

FAAN VENTER: No I don't think he knew.  I think he was quite surprised when I told him I did have one.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

GEORGE BIZOS: May I be permitted to ask one or two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it ground that you haven't covered already?

GEORGE BIZOS: No I have not Mr Chairman.  May I Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you find out for the first time that the gun that you supplied was used to kill Mr Hani?

FAAN VENTER: When the police arrested me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that after Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest?

FAAN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you seen Mr Derby-Lewis since?

FAAN VENTER: Since when Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well since you saw him at his trial when you learnt, or after you learnt that your gun had been used to kill Mr Hani, have you seen Mr Derby-Lewis?

FAAN VENTER: I visited him in jail, he's a friend of mine, numerous times.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever ask him why he lied to you about the purpose to which the gun was going to be put?

FAAN VENTER: No I suppose it was their part of stockpiling, the moment I gave them the firearm the matter was out of my control, I couldn't control what they were going to do with it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask him whether at the time that he asked you and at the time that you provided the firearm whether that was his intention to use the gun for that purpose?

FAAN VENTER: No I didn't know that they would be doing so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you not ask him?