Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: I now would like to ask you a few questionsabout informants.   You said there were about, at one stage yousaid or I think it was you who said there were about 500 informersthat worked within your jurisdiction, is that correct?

ANSWER: I did not refer to 500, but it was in that regionof about 500 people.

<UNKNOWN>: ...informers were paid for information?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: That means that they weren't paid a set monthlysalary but when they brought information they were paid for whatthey brought?   Is that correct?

ANSWER: Many of them were paid a monthly amount, otherswere paid in terms of the information that they gave, and theamount was also determined by the value of the information.

<UNKNOWN>: Was the information that they brought to youvery suspect?

ANSWER: Certainly, we always took care to assure thatthe information from one informant was confirmed by another informant.  The informants did not know each other or one another.

<UNKNOWN>: ...surely that if that person is paid to bringinformation to you that person needs some money to buy bread andthat that in itself is a motivation to bring information and toeven look for information which may not be correct?

ANSWER: That is the case.
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MR CURRAN 513 J H CRONJE

<UNKNOWN>: Is it also not correct that if an informerwas not performing and was not providing the sort of informationthat you would require, it would be necessary to kill that informer?

ANSWER: No that would not have been necessary.

<UNKNOWN>: What would you do with an informer that hadbeen working with you and who didn't produce, say an informerthat had been working with you for two years who didn't produceinformation, did you just pat him on the back and say thanks verymuch you are now excused?

ANSWER: Certainly we would not have used his servicesany further.

<UNKNOWN>: Hadn't that informer in the course and scopeof his or her employment gathered important information aboutthe activities of the security police and what you were up toand would be a danger?

ANSWER: No he would not have been a danger to us becausehe knew nothing about our activities, he did not know how thesecurity police operated.   He would not have had any informationavailable to him that could hurt us.

<UNKNOWN>: ...know that they would come to you, give youinformation about an activist, where the activist lived and thatyou then would go out and blow up the activist's house, surelyinformers knew what you were up to?

ANSWER: That is the case but the informant also knewthat we could leak his name to the ANC and then he would neverbe able to work again.

<UNKNOWN>: ...directly, you would do it indirectly?

ANSWER: If we thought that this person was a threat andif the person threatened to give information about us away, thenwe would have leaked his name.
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MR CURRAN 514 J H CRONJE

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Brigadier Cronje, how were informers recruited,you had various categories of informers, would you mind explainingto us how these were recruited and the different categories thereof?

ANSWER: Informants would have been persons who gatheredinformation for us say concerning school boycotts, concerningactivists, they might have been persons close to an activist,persons trusted by an activist and we recruited them in this way.  We would send some of our members to them or someone like SgtMamasela who would have approached the potential informant, wewould have offered the person payment, money.   There were informantswho were recruited locally, there were also informants who wererecruited to be sent out abroad for military training and thenupon their return they worked in a clandestine way for us.
MR CURRAN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: ...common cause that there are informers whohave been killed by the security forces?

ANSWER: It is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Finally I just would like to ask you a fewquestions about propaganda.   You said in your founding documentthat a war psychosis was created by the South African Governmentre the total onslaught in the context of the fight against theANC, liberation movements, communism and that the true picturewas never made known to the white community.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are you reading from Mr Curran?

MR CURRAN: From my notes, that was the general (indistinct)of his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: He's given that evidence, yes.
MR CURRAN (contd)
4.:

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR CURRAN 515 J H CRONJE

<UNKNOWN>: Is that correct, I have summarised a largesection of it and that is my understanding of what he says.  Isthat correct?

ANSWER: Could you repeat it?

<UNKNOWN>: You've said that the true picture with regardto South Africa was never given to the white community, that therewas propaganda about a war psychosis in regard to the total onslaught.  Is that correct?

ANSWER: That is the case, the true picture was that areal situation of war did exist, any person in the black areas,working in the black townships would be able to tell you the same.  The media however, the press were kept out of the black townshipson the instructions of the Government of the day, they were notallowed in the black townships.   If you found a member of themedia in the townships you took his film and you allowed him toleave the township.   They were not able to gather a true pictureof what the state of affairs had been.

<UNKNOWN>: ...psychosis is not the true picture?

ANSWER: Not with regard to that which the Governmentwanted to communicate to the public, the white public.

<UNKNOWN>: ...propaganda to create a perception of totalonslaught, wasn't that precisely what the politicians were doing?

ANSWER: They did create the perception of total onslaughtbut they did not give the true picture.

<UNKNOWN>: In your founding document I got the impressionthat you were saying that even the security police were victimsof propaganda by the Government, is that what you were saying?

ANSWER: I've already said that the security police mainly
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MR CURRAN 516 J H CRONJE
and including the uniform branch at every one of their courses,were indoctrinated that apartheid was correct and that communismand the ANC were the monsters and that they had to be combatted.

<UNKNOWN>: It's just in regard to that but not in regardto the total onslaught?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: The implications then of your evidence, aswe understand it in conclusion, is that there was a police hitsquad on the highest level, acting with the authority and instructionsfrom the National Party, that it identified targets for assassination,that it reported back to the State Security Council and that theseactivities had the blessing of the State Security Council.   ThatCouncil was chaired by the President, P W Botha and that all theother portfolios were represented, except for Justice?

ANSWER: Justice was not involved at a joint managementsystem level.

<UNKNOWN>: ...State Security Council was chaired by theState President and also on that structure was the Minister ofLaw & Order, at the time was Mr Vlok, and General Malan asMinister of Defence after Louis Le Grange?

ANSWER: Louis Le Grange was never Minister of Defence.  I can mention in addition that P W Botha in public said thatwe would eliminate terrorists and their fellow-travellers.  Hemust have known what we were doing.

<UNKNOWN>: I have no further questions to put to thiswitness other than to say Mr Chairman that in regard to the questionof authority and instructions, we think that it would be importantin the context of instructions and authority, that the Chairpersonof the State Security
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MR CURRAN 517 J H CRONJE
Council and other members be subpoenaed to testify before thisCommittee because the instructions from our clients are that theywould like us to question them on the allegations of instructionsand knowledge of the activities of the applicants.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRAN