Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and where did you drive to?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: On the Marine Parade we drove on the Marine Parade and then Robert had turned off at some stage, he turned off the Marine Parade.

CHAIRPERSON: I must have misunderstood your evidence, because I was under the impression that you drove to a particular spot and parked the vehicle and then Robert went off and then came back on foot.  What are you saying now about travelling around?  You say you went down and you travelled around the Marine Parade? - for a second time.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: For the second time ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Robert was driving the blue Ford Cortina and I was in the passenger seat.

CHAIRPERSON: And Greta wasn't there?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.  And then we drove off the Marine Parade and went and stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Richard, you can carry on.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Sir.
	When you say you drove off the Marine and stopped, where did you stop?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember exactly where, I think it was at the bottom of Pine Street or somewhere like that.

MR RICHARD: Now how far from the beachfront had you drive once you had turned off the Marine Parade, was it a couple of hundred yards or right into Pine Street?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was close to the end of Pine Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just get my geography right.  Pine Street, where does that end?  That doesn't go down to the beachfront, is it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Bree(?) Street goes to the Beach Front, Pine Street stops - is it near ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think Point Road if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, one - I don't know the street names, but one of those streets.  But it doesn't go through to the beach?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, it doesn't go down.

CHAIRPERSON: But you stopped in Pine Street?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Or near the bottom there?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, close to the beachfront.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that near where Bakers Biscuits used to be, or was?  It was somewhere down there?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm not sure, Mr Chairman.

MR RICHARD: Near the Killarney Hotel, if I go though a ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm not sure exactly where, but I know it was close to the beachfront, it wasn't too far away from there.

MR RICHARD: Let me try it this way.  You turned left off the Marine Parade and probably turned left and right, something ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't remember which way we turned and stuff like that.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know whether on that occasion you drove past the Parade Hotel?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, we drove past the Parade Hotel.

MR RICHARD: Was anything said when you drove past?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, not that I remember.

MR RICHARD: Now once you parked the car what did Mr McBride instruct you to do?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Once we parked the car where?

MR RICHARD: Somewhere near Pine Street, or at the bottom of Pine Street.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Comrade McBride instructed me, he gave me a firearm and he instructed me that if anybody approached this car I must shoot them and try and get away from there.

MR RICHARD: Now how long did you wait in the car?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm not too sure on this, it could have been 30 to 40 minutes.

MR RICHARD: Do you know where Mr McBride went during that 30/40 minutes?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

MR RICHARD: Did he ever explain to you what he was doing?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, he did not.  He just told me he'll be back I must wait for him.

MR RICHARD: What do you think - what did you think at that stage was happening?  What did you think was going on around you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I didn't think anything, I just - to my knowledge I knew that we were going to leave this car for another unit to pick up.

MR RICHARD: Then 30 or 40 minutes later Mr McBride returned.  Was he alone?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think he was alone when he returned.

MR RICHARD: Ms Narkedien wasn't with him, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yeah, that's right.

MR RICHARD: Then once he was in the vehicle what did he tell you to do?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: When comrade McBride got into the vehicle, he started the vehicle up and drove it down to the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: Where did he drive to?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: To the Marine Parade outside the Parade Hotel.

MR RICHARD: Now, is it not there that you saw Greta's car?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: And it is also correct that it did not take you long to drive from where you had stopped in Pine Street to the Marine Parade?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: In fact, nothing more than a couple of minutes or longer?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It did not take long.  I don't know exactly how many minutes we took, but it did not take long.

MR RICHARD: Now your evidence is that Ms Narkedien moved out of the parking spot and Mr McBride parked the car in the same parking spot that she had just vacated, and you at that stage were in the car containing, to your knowledge, the explosives.  Have I understood it correctly?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Can you repeat that please, you're asking me more than one thing.

MR RICHARD: I'm summing up what I understand of your evidence and I'm asking whether I've got it correctly.  You and Mr McBride drove in the blue Cortina which contained what you had been told were explosives, correct?  He drove to the Marine Parade and parked outside the Parade Hotel in a parking spot which had shortly before been occupied by the car driven by Greta.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That was after Robert had shown Greta with his hand, a hand sign he used for her to move out of that parking.  That's when she moved out and then Robert drove into that parking bay.

MR RICHARD: Did you see where Greta drove to?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Now, the events which you mention in paragraph (viii), page 7, at what stage were you asked to get the numberplate of the vehicle from the front?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: After Robert had parked the vehicle there.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say "from the front", what precisely do you mean?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was on the dashboard, the numberplate.

MR RICHARD: You then continue to say that
"He then showed me a pin ..."
That's at paragraph (x).  How long between telling you to remove the numberplate from the front dashboard to the point in time that you showed you a pin, was it?  Was it a long period or a short period?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, it was a very short period.

MR RICHARD: Now, from the moment that you arrived at the Marine Parade and Mr McBride gestured to Greta to move out of the parking spot, to the point in time that he showed you the pin, do you recall how much, approximately, time passed by?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I don't recall how much time passed us by.

MR RICHARD: Was it a short period or ...?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I just said I don't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you spend any time hanging around doing nothing there?  From the time that you got out of the vehicle, took the numberplate, saw the pin, did you spend any time just being there, loitering or whatever?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: One can accept it would have been a reasonably short time?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: Now once you saw the pin, what did you believe was happening?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's when I was convinced that it is a car bomb operation.

MR RICHARD: And were you in or out the car when you were shown the pin?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was still in the car at the time.

MR RICHARD: What did you do next?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Comrade Robert instructed me that we must get out the car.

MR RICHARD: Now from the moment you got out of the car, what did you do?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We got out the car and comrade Robert said I must follow him, which I did.

MR RICHARD: Where did you follow him to?