Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR DA SILVA: And I understand your testimony to be that the first time you saw these vehicles, was after the attack, while you were gathering on the eastern side of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, in that veld between Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Boipatong, is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Only after the attack was completed, did you see these vehicles, is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: The first time I saw them, they were there at point (c).

MR DA SILVA: Point (c) is where Unipark Motors is, that is where the Trek garage is?  Is that right?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.  Point (c) is where the garage is, at the back there, there is a firm.  So the first time I saw them, they were there and then they turned left at the garage.

MR DA SILVA: If you are saying they turned left, does that mean, did they move in that direction along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard in the direction of the foot bridge, is that what you are saying?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: So the first time you saw this vehicle, the attack had already been completed.  You were gathering to go to kwaMadala?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Right.  Now, the two vehicles that were reversing, were they reversing in this Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that what you are saying?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: So were they reversing towards the group, you are saying that the headlights were not facing you, that they were reversing.  Do I make the correct assumption, were they reversing towards the group?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, they were reversing towards the robot next to the garage.

MR DA SILVA: So were they reversing from the garage towards the robot, is that what you are saying?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were not reversing from the robot, they were reversing, I don't know how can I explain this.  Let me explain it this way, there at point (e), when you go down with that road, they started reversing from that point towards the robot, until they reached the robot.

MR DA SILVA: So you are saying that they were at point (e) at this stage?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were not exactly at point (e), but when you move down that road, they reversed from there towards the garage.

MR DA SILVA: Why do you refer to point (e)?

MR STRYDOM: Just to save time, I have been looking at the indication here, what the witness is doing, is extending that line of point (e) right to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, that is not on Noble Boulevard, but he just uses that as a marker, but he points to Frikkie Meyer, lower down, so you must actually extend that line to Frikkie Meyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a pen, could you ask the witness to please indicate the - on the map, on that Exhibit, the point at which he saw those vehicles?  Show it to Counsel.  Can you have a look at that?  Is that the mark that is almost below (e)?

MR DA SILVA: I understand so Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I understand it to be at the end of the nursery.  You will note that there is a ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuka, will you please put a circle on the mark that you have made so that we can see which one it is, there are two x's there.
	Show it to Mr Da Silva first.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mazibuko, the point that you have marked is on the road, on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, at the end of the nursery, is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: You testified earlier and I understood your evidence to be that the other two vehicles, the vehicles that were reversing, were reversing from the garage to the robot, is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were not reversing from the garage to the robot.  They were reversing from that point, that is where they stopped and one of them, turned around and the two of them reversed from that point that I have already indicated, and they reversed from that point to the garage.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mazibuko, my information is that immediately after the attack, there were only to use your words, two suitcases available and if necessary I will lead evidence to that effect.
	Aren't you mistaken when you say you saw three vehicles?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I did not make a mistake, I saw three.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, there were only two vehicles available from Vaal Commando and only one vehicle was in this vicinity.

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I did not see one vehicle.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   The time now is approximately half past five.  Ms Tanzer, we intend rising at this stage.  Do you have any objections to commencing your cross-examination tomorrow morning?

MS TANZER: None whatsoever, I can prepare Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, thank you.  Just before I forget this point, Mr Da Silva, the witness has been referring to a suitcase and you have been referring to what?

MR DA SILVA: A buffel vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Does your, is what you understand to be a buffel, the same thing as what he refers to?

MR DA SILVA: Yes Mr Chairman, my information and my instructions are that a buffel is (indistinct) known in the area, in Boipatong, as a suitcase.  It is one and the same vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you put it to this witness that according to your information, there was one Defence vehicle, buffel, in and around that vicinity?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Is there, on your information, is there any indication at what time that was?

MR DA SILVA: I can revert to you tomorrow morning and I will be able to give you an approximation of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because it may well be that he did see these two motor vehicles, but at some other stage.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, I will do that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So will you please be - okay, very well.
	Mr Strydom, after this witness, after this applicant, who do you intend calling?

MR STRYDOM: Tebogo Magubane.  I have been given the assurance that he has arrived in Vereeniging, he is in Vereeniging prison and he will be here tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr Da Silva, the Committee has decided to accede to your request that we start tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and finish at five o'clock.

MR DA SILVA: I am indebted to you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Tomorrow we will commence at nine o'clock, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS