Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

UNKNOWN: Honourable member of the committee I am getting to paragraph 12 because a further problem arises from reading of paragraph 12. I would like to deal to deal specifically with paragraph 12.
	Do you agree Mr Llale that on a reading of paragraph 12 the following appears. You initially at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street you then run on the parapet to what you call the second alcove on the parapet, and what you are trying to convey here is that you then stood up at the second alcove quickly stood up and fired one shot, took cover again then stood up quickly again took or fired a second shot and then took cover again. Is that what you were trying to convey in paragraph 12?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As I said things here were put in a general term but it explained that to stood up and go down what I was doing in court because in here I said I shot at the marchers. Then I had to explain which marcher were you shooting, and then I had to say which marcher I was shooting.

UNKNOWN: : Yes Sir on the contrary what appears on paragraph 12 is that you aimed your two which happened in quick succession in the direction of the marchers in general. You say here that
"I stood up and fired at the marchers. I took cover again and then fired a second shot and then took cover again in the general direction of the marchers".

MOSES VELI LLALE: In the true sense of the matter if I had to isolate the man with the AK other people would die who were not carrying AKs, they were part of the marchers, hence I will use the name marchers because if I had to only concentrate on one person who was not even shot that day I think I will be misdirecting myself. But on that day this person was amongst the marchers. I am not trying to say, to justify my shooting by saying only this person there were marchers around him, as I am saying marchers. Then you will have to go further asking me questions then I will explain actually in what direction my firearm was pointing at.

MR TIPP: Chairperson my learned friend Mr Dorfling says that his statements says that I fired in the general direction of the marchers that is not what the statement says. My learned friend has added some words to the witness' statement. The statement says
"They started rushing forward and shot at us with automatic weapons...."
which is the one part my learned friend left out and - "Then when I got to the second alcove I quickly stood up and fired at the marchers".
It doesn't say there in the general direction of the marchers.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair with respect that's why it was put to the witness that this is the impression that is being created by paragraph 12 of his statement, that the witness, the applicant, fired in the general direction of marchers in general and not aiming at anybody in particula, and that is the impression that one gains from paragraph 12.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think the name general is not going to be used in each and every sentence as I am saying. The question here is did you just stand up and shoot at the marchers? Then one has to respond at that, that which marcher was that. That is why I am saying to you I don't want to direct my answers to an individual whereas on that day there was no individual which was more than other, everybody who was there had the same common mind. As I am saying to you let's not generalise everything in here. There are things that are general but there are things that - they still will be here nobody removed them but I will have to explain to each and every question, not to generalise everything Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think that the suggestion that is being put to you is that you said that here was this man with the T-shirt with an AK-47 and you fired at him. These paragraphs don't make specific reference to you firing at that particular man. It says you fired at the marchers. And that the fact that you didn't mention that you fired at the man with the T-shirt is the crux of this question that's being put to you, that's all.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I understand but you see it is true that it is not contained in paragraph 12 that I shot at a specific person, it is not contained, yes, it's true that I agree with you.

UNKNOWN: Sir did you convey to your legal representatives that you aimed your fire at a person in specific?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I've explained this before that Caroline who is one of the lawyers after the statement already has been given to the Attorney-General, I went to him and said, he said to me but you are mentioning here people with automatic weapons because your statement is already gone. Go to court and explain this in details. This is what I did. And I think I don't know whether it was you or Ferreira. This question was asked over and over again in the inquest. I had to explain the same explanation I don't know whether you don't actually take this explanation because we are here.

UNKNOWN: : Mr Llale I am asking you to explain whether you conveyed this to your legal representative that you fired at a specific individual where as your statement just reflects your shooting in general terms?

CHAIRPERSON: He has explained as best as he can you know. He said that after he had told the attorney that this hasn't been specifically put, the attorney says, when you go to court you can give the details. This adequately conveys what you've tried to do. Now that is the explanation you've got before you.

UNKNOWN: Sir may I refer you to page 3715 of the record of the inquest proceedings at line 13 and further.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Pardon, you said 37...?

UNKNOWN: : 3715 at lines 13 onwards. You're here being questioned specifically about the fact that the person with the AK-47 has not been mentioned in your statement and then you're specifically asked whether this was conveyed to your attorneys. And what is recorded at this page is the following.

UNKNOWN: "Sir did you tell your attorneys that you fired at this person?

WITNESS: No I told the attorneys that I was shooting at the marchers but I did not single out this person because he was also a marcher he was also one of the marchers.

UNKNOWN: 		So what you told your attorneys was I just shot at the marchers. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Well that is how one would construct it but that is not what I meant when I said in my language that I shot at the people including him".

UNKNOWN: That's lines 13 to 20. You were asked the very same question at the inquest proceedings and you explained that you did not convey that to your attorneys you actually just said you shot at the marchers in general.

MR TIPP: Chairperson with all due respect to my learned friend if he goes on to read the very next question the question is.

MR TIPP: "Did you tell your attorneys that you shot at the marchers?

WITNESS: Yes, but particularly concentrating on this person, this person who was most dangerous to me.

MR TIPP: 		And is that what you told your attorneys?

WITNESS: Yes."

MR TIPP: So with all due respect my learned friend should read all the evidence to the witness not just a selected passage.

UNKNOWN: : With the greatest respect Mr Chair the witness now testified it only after him having made the statement did he convey such information to the attorneys. That was the specific question that was asked pertaining to whether he at that time conveyed that to the attorneys and the answer was quite clear. "No I just said I shot at the marchers in general".
	Mr Chair I see that it is four o' clock should I carry on. Yes I won't finish very soon.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS