Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I cannot speak on behalf of them, I haven't read any one of their applications and I have not had the opportunity to study it.  This is my own version and this is my sentiment and I cannot change anything about it, because that is a reflection of my experience at that time.

MR MOERANE: Colonel De Kock was in a much better position than you to see what actually happened, not so because he was right in front?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I believe so.

MR MOERANE: And if he says that there was no firing, he did not see any firing, you are prepared to accept that by this person coming out of the door?  You would accept that?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I would concede to that, as I have said, I could not really see, it was at night and there would have been flames emerging from the firearm, but as I have said, Colonel De Kock and some of the other members were in front of me, and it would be speculative of me to say that there were flames coming from the firearm.  I simply believed that the shots which had been fired, were fired by the person who climbed out of the kombi.

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moerane.   Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any re-examination Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Yes, something about your evidence here, you have been examined in general regarding the maintenance of the law and arrests and the combating of crime, have I summarised it correctly if I heard you say that you understand the work of the Uniform Branch and that of the Security Branch as two totally different worlds, the Uniform Branch was involved in combating crime, but the Security Branch was involved in waging a war?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes Chairperson, there is a difference.  I feel that there is a difference between the Security Branch and the Uniform Branch.  The Uniform Branch operated mostly on ground level and dealt with one could almost say less serious matters.  They were not always involved on the infiltration level or the levels upon which we moved, when it came to gathering intelligence and dealing directly with the infiltration process.

MR MALAN: Yes, you see because I just want to be certain, it sounds to me as if this is not only your perception, but you felt that the Uniform Branch was the police and that the Security Branch was waging war against terrorists and as you said, it could bend the rules, but it sounded to me as if you could operate under your own rules?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: So according to your evidence, it is my impression that you didn't really regard the Uniform Branch and the Security Branch as one Unit, or as two wings of one major purpose which would be the combating of crime and the security of the public?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: The Security Branch moved on a different level.  We received a lot of information from the Uniform Branch and so forth, but we did not operate on the same level.

MR MALAN: Security Branch only had to do with catching terrorists, is that how you understood it?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Regarding my short period at the Security Branch, that is how I understood it.

MR MALAN: It wasn't about  protecting other people in general or combating crime or obtaining sensitive information which could lead to regular crime, to put it blatantly you were basically soldiers under the banner of the police?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I would accept that.

MR MALAN: And you weren't even restricted by the Geneva Convention or any other institutions?  You simply acted according to the orders of your superiors and you accepted it as such?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You didn't simply act under orders, you believed that that is why you were there?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: All the answers you have just given, yes, yes, yes, to Mr Malan's questions, where did you get the idea that that was your task, it is not what you were tasked to do in terms of the rules of who you were and what you were supposed to do?  Where did you get the idea that you were a little army of your own, separate to the military and not doing what ordinary policemen did?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: No, I don't think that we could do what we wanted, we still had our Commanders who drew a line.  I worked under a Commander and I couldn't just do what I wanted to.  What we did, he knew of.  If there were problems, I think that he would have corrected us, that we shouldn't do things like that, but I couldn't just go on my own and do what I wanted to.

ADV GCABASHE: No, you see those were general propositions that included all of the people in the Security Branch, that included your Commanders, so you were saying that as you understood your tasks, and the tasks of all your seniors and juniors, you could essentially bend the rules whenever it suited your particular purposes?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Chairperson, I never had to do with such cases, this was the first time with these two incidents, that I became involved with such acts of terrorism, including insurgency and an action against insurgency.  Previously I had nothing to do with this and what took place here and that is where my ideas were formulated which led to the affirmative answers that I have just given.

ADV GCABASHE: Tell me, what drew you to the Security Branch as opposed to the Detective Branch after doing your original stint in the Uniform Branch?  Did you volunteer, I mean what made you move to Security matters rather than just ordinary policing matters, you the individual?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I was connected to the Railway Police in Durban and not the Police Services as it is known today, I was with the Railway Police and I had many friends in the Security Branch.  In the beginning I had small tasks such as the collection of information from Trade Unions which as I regarded it, was a less serious job to do at the Security Branch.    As time went by, one didn't want to stay in one place all the time, such as with the Uniform Branch, one wouldn't want to stay on the street all the time, one wanted to move up and that is how I became friends with my friends at the Security Branch and ultimately I saw that this was a direction that I wanted to follow and that is when I began at the Security Branch in Durban where we undertook security clearances and so forth and with time, I ended up at the Piet Retief Security Branch.

ADV GCABASHE: You are still in the Police Service, the Detective Branch, right now?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: All those habits that you practised as members of the Security Branch, you in particular at the time, have you carried those over to the Detective Branch now?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: No, I think after these incidents, my eyes have gone open and as I sit here today, I think that it was worth it.   I am now with the Detective Branch and I am doing the work of a Detective, there are no more infiltrations or anything like that, and I am now at the level where I have and I feel that I have very good relations with the community.

ADV GCABASHE: And you actually are doing things differently as opposed to the way you did them in the past, there is a change in the manner in which you are doing things?  There are no cover-ups, there are no lies, there are no - I am just trying to understand you, the individual, applying for amnesty now for acts in the past fair enough, but how those could possibly be translated to the future where you are now?