Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR MOTLAUNG: So is it fair to say that the way you saw it you saw black people generally as a legitimate target, any black person for you was a legitimate target?

MR PRINSLOO: That is not what the witness said. He said he saw black people and Generals that targeted, he clearly stated he saw black people with the exception of the IFP so it is not correct to say generally he saw black people as a target.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if ninety nine percent isn't general I don't know what is.  The witness himself said the one percent they regarded as the IFP who were with them and they were not against the IFP.  Ninety nine percent of the black were, he associated ninety nine percent of the black population as against the AWB, as I understood it. Do you want to clear it up with him?  I will give you an opportunity to clear it up just now if you want to.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you.  Sir, just to take the matter further, would it be fair to say that when you looked at the black people, bearing in mind that for you ninety nine percent do not belong to the IFP, you wouldn't in fact be able to detect where the one percent lied within the black community?

UNKNOWN: On your previous question, if I may make a statement there, what I meant is for the majority of people on the black side was ANC.  If that person wasn't ANC I really wouldn't have known then.  I didn't go about and ask the person are you ANC or IFP, I knew that the IFP's was Inkatha Freedom Party and the rest of the people I saw as ANC, not individuals as in: "Listen are you ANC or not", I saw them as ANC.

MR MOTLAUNG: I see.  Did anybody, up to the stage that you went about throwing bombs, did anybody specifically say to you that black people generally should be targeted by these bombs?

UNKNOWN: Beforehand and with the orders that were given it was not said especially: "Don't kill blacks", it was said: "Go plant the bomb at taxi ranks", and that is what we did.

MR MOTLAUNG: In fact if I understand your evidence well - in fact let me put it the other way around, may you please look at your application, page 149 paragraph 18 and I quote
"And then we went to Randfontein and I drove the vehicle, considering the fact that I knew the area well.  We must ourselves choose an appropriate target and our target was the taxi rank at Randfontein."
Is that correct what is stated there?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: So you chose the target yourself?

UNKNOWN: No.  I was told to go to Randfontein and plant a bomb at the taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, I am talking about this particular taxi rank was your own choice?

UNKNOWN: Alright.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sorry?

UNKNOWN: No, I was told to go there.  Now I got there and I saw that this is the taxi rank in Randfontein, so I knew where my target was.  We brought the car to a standstill and we planted the bomb at the taxi rank where it was told to be planted.  I didn't go and say: "Ah is this taxi, no it has got two or three or ten people in it", my order was to go and plant it at the taxi rank so I didn't go pick and choose. I just did and saw. alright this is the general area that I must plant it and I planted it there.

MR MOTLAUNG: What does this phrase mean
"We had to find an appropriate target ourselves"

UNKNOWN: That is what I just explained to you.

MR MOTLAUNG: But what does it mean Sir?  You yourself had to choose a target?

UNKNOWN: The appropriate target yes, and we did.  The taxi rank in Randfontein, that was the target.

MR MOTLAUNG: Who chose it?

UNKNOWN: I was told to go there, I didn't choose it. I got my order to go to Randfontein taxi rank and I got in the car and drove to Randfontein taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, I think I hear what you are saying but ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: So that was not my choice.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter your application reads as follows
"We had to ourselves find an appropriate target and our target was the taxi rank in Randfontein."
I think the problem lies with the fact that your application reads:  
"We had to find an appropriate target ourselves."
So he understands that it was the instruction, but who told you that it has got to be a specific taxi rank?   Did some one tell you that or did you yourself choose it?  Out of all the taxi ranks did you choose this specific taxi rank yourself?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, then I refer back to the circumstances where I became involved at the bomb mission with regards to Randfontein.  People asked me: "Do you know Randfontein", I said: "Yes".  They said: "Okay you are going to drive the car, you are going to Randfontein".  There were already people chosen to go to Randfontein.  They wanted some one else to go and the instruction was: "A taxi rank".  So the general direction in which we had to head was Randfontein and the choice about the planting of the bomb was a taxi rank and that is the conclusion I made.  It was said that we must go to Randfontein, we went there.  The instruction was to place a bomb at a taxi rank, a taxi rank at Randfontein.  That is what I was informed.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you said: "We ourselves had to find an appropriate target"?

UNKNOWN: At the taxi rank itself, an appropriate target.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.  An appropriate target?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Motlaung.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Venter, I put it to you that the interpretation that you now wish we should attach to your evidence cannot be because if you look at the same sentence that I quoted, you say:
"We ourselves had to find an appropriate target and our target was the taxi rank Randfontein."
It cannot be that you intended here that you actually mean a specific target now at this same taxi rank. You make it clear that the target was the taxi rank, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Okay can you go to paragraph 18, the first sentence, what does it say there?
"In our mission to Randfontein"
Do you see it there?
"In our mission to Randfontein I drove the vehicle"
My order at the game farm was the taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Any taxi rank, you were not told which specific one, correct?

UNKNOWN: Okay but we were on our way to Randfontein.

MR MOTLAUNG: Were you told which specific taxi rank in Randfontein, Sir?

UNKNOWN: No, that wasn't a specific taxi rank. If there were six or ten I really didn't know.

MR MOTLAUNG: So this specific one was chosen by yourself, correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, if you ask the question that way, yes. If you come to the point to say I chose that exact taxi rank, yes, because I didn't know if there was 5 or 6 but if you say my objective was that my choice, no, that was an order.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay Sir, let's talk now about your target being taxi ranks.  What made you think that an appropriate target for you would be a black taxi rank?

UNKNOWN: That was not my choice Sir.

MR MOTLAUNG: Whose choice was it?

UNKNOWN: The people, the superiors that gave me the order, that was their decision and their choice.

MR MOTLAUNG: So their decision and their choice was specifically to say to you that it must be a black taxi rank?

UNKNOWN: That is correct Sir. I just did what was asked and told to do.

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir, looking at the position that you held within the Ystergarde, the meetings that you say you attended, particularly apparently also the closed meetings which one may term closed meetings, I get the impression that you were very close to decisions that were being taken at the highest levels within the AWB, is that impression correct?

UNKNOWN: No, that is the wrong impression you've got Sir, I was mere a bodyguard.  A bodyguard looks after the leader as Terreblanche now.  I had no say in what they decided or when it was decided, I just protected the person itself.

MR MOTLAUNG: But when they discussed things you were present?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR MOTLAUNG: Were you not there?