Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (s.u.o)

MR BLACK: (cont)   Thank you Mr Chairman.  	I just briefly wish to conclude the evidence of the applicant Mr Gushu.  Mr Gushu, yesterday you testified extensively about the murders, attempted murders and attacks on various people.  You also mentioned that during the course of the attacks, you used on occasions a Makaroff pistol and AK47 rifles and purchased ammunition.  Do you recall that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I do.

MR BLACK: Now, were those weapons lawfully acquired and licensed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: According to the laws of the National Party they were unlicensed.

MR BLACK: Now, are you asking amnesty in respect of possession of unlawful ammunition and weapons?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I did.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now, can we - these actions which you carried out and attacks, were they in any way for personal gain or revenge?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, I was acting like an MK soldier of Umkhonto weSizwe, as I was given an instruction.

MR BLACK: Were all these actions carried out under the
command orders?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did as I was instructed by the Organisation.

MR BLACK: What was the motive, for what purpose did you carry out these orders under the command of the Organisation?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It is because I wanted, it is because, I did all this in the name of democracy in South Africa and people should live peacefully without intimidation.

MR BLACK: Right.  Now, in so far as the victims are concerned, have you anything to say to them?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I would like to say something.  I am asking for - I apologise for my actions, but it was necessary for me to do that because I was given instructions.  I was given instructions by my Organisation.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  I have no further evidence to lead.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, have you got any questions?

MR PATEL: I do, My Lord, Mr Chairman.  	Mr Gushu, if I understand your evidence correctly, the Piet Retief operations that you referred to in paragraph 13, on page 36, you talk about receiving instructions from the ANC command.  Do I understand your evidence correctly that you are referring to the ANC command in Piet Retief?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I am referring to that one.

MR PATEL: Now, you will agree with me that you are not testifying about recent events.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I am testifying about what I did.

MR PATEL: These events took place quite some time ago?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR PATEL: And for that reason, your recollection of the events may be slightly inaccurate, would you agree?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I agree because now there is a government of National Unity.

MR PATEL: In addition the conditions under which you operated were somewhat chaotic and this would have further hampered your recollection of events, would you agree?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is so.

MR PATEL: I am being deafened.  I am going to be deaf by the end of the day.  I put these questions to you because the fourth applicant, whom I represent, Mr Mkhwanazi, will state that he did give you a general instruction to ensure the safety of the ANC in the three areas you mentioned, namely Ermelo, Secunda and Piet Retief.
	He will say further that the only express orders that he issued to you with regard to assassinations, related to that of Chris Ngwenya and to Jwi Zwane, in other words he will testify that he did not give you an express instruction to assassinate Advice Gwala, but when you reported the assassination to him, he approved of your actions.  Do you think just maybe that his recollection of the events, is correct and that perhaps you are mistaken in your recollection of events relating to Mr Gwala?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I didn't make a mistake.  Sometimes I was forced to take an initiative, protecting the community.  Whatever I did, I would report back to my Commander, if the Commander approves.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Maybe you don't understand my question correctly.  It is correct that he approved your assassination of Mr Gwala, that you did report it to him.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: In other words, he is testifying that your previous conduct of assassination, was one which you did out of your own intuition and it wasn't an express instruction such as with Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: To me, it is the same, it remains the same.

MR PATEL: Do I understand your evidence correctly then to say that if a Commander approves your action after the deed, it is the same as if he had expressly instructed you to do that deed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, because if he was not approving of my actions, it means that I did that for my own.

MR PATEL: Thank you Mr Gushu, I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman, I have a couple of questions.  Mr Gushu, can you please tell
us exactly what your instructions were in regard to Chris Ngwenya, the instructions which we have heard which you received from Mr Mkhwanazi?  Please tell us exactly what your instructions were.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The instruction that I received was that the people, the residents of Ermelo were troubled by the Black Cats gang and Chris Ngwenya was one of the leaders of the Black Cats.
	It was necessary for me to kill Chris.

MR KEMP: Were you instructed to kill him at any particular time or on any particular date?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The date was not specified but the instruction to kill him, was there.

MR KEMP: You were aware of the Goldstone Commission and the evidence that was given at the Goldstone Commission at that time, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR KEMP: You were also aware of the allegations contained in the Weekly Mail and the fact that those allegations were being investigated by the Goldstone Commission, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct.

MR KEMP: And you were aware of the fact that Chris Ngwenya was going to testify at the Goldstone Commission, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, I didn't know that.

MR KEMP: What I am trying to establish Mr Gushu is, if there was no specific time for him to be killed, but merely instruction that he should be removed, why it was necessary to shoot at him while he was in the company of innocent people?  Can you please explain that again?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have already explained initially, Chris Ngwenya was one of the leaders of the Black Cats.  He is one of the people who were in the forefront of the killing of the people of the ANC, the members of the Communist Party and the UDF, the Civic Associations and ANC Youth League.

MR KEMP: Apparently you did not understand my question Mr Gushu, what I would like to know is why was it necessary to shoot Chris Ngwenya at a time when he was in the company of innocent people?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Mr Gushu, why didn't  you wait for an opportunity where you could safely shoot at him without risking injuring anybody else?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I said yesterday, the Black Cat gang used to, most of the times were in town, it was very difficult to get hold of them in those times.
	Therefore the only chance that I had, the one that I used.

MR KEMP: Are you trying to tell us that you thought you wouldn't get another chance?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I wouldn't get another chance because I was also working at Piet Retief, Ermelo and Davel.

MR KEMP: So the fact that you had to travel and to come from other places, to you, was more important than the life of innocent people, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It is more like the importance of the lives of the members of the African National Congress.  I wouldn't allow him to stay alive and keep on killing the members of the ANC.

MR KEMP: You were armed with a Makaroff pistol on that night when Chris Ngwenya was killed, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR KEMP: And nothing would have prevented you from approaching him and shooting him with the pistol, is that correct?