Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
	Mr Mthembu, let me remind you that you are still under oath.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: What happens now is that the members of the Committee are going to put questions to you to clarify some of the aspects of your evidence.  Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I have warned you before, I'll do it again, if you do not understand the question, would you please indicate that you don't understand the question so that the question can be repeated to you or explained to you as the case may be.  Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And because we are running out of time but not to suggest that because there is no time we have to hasten this, it will be helpful where the answer has to be a yes or no for you to say so as opposed to making a statement.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Where necessary and if you feel that you want to make a statement, do so.  Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to the witness.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, I do have questions.
	Mr Mthembu, this incident, the attack on Boipatong, I took it it's something which happened for the first time to you and then it's something which you'll not easily forget, it's a very significant event, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR SIBANYONI: And as such I take it that it's easy to relate to us, to tell us even without looking at the documents just to tell us broadly what happened, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR SIBANYONI: I just want you to clarify this.  There were at some stage when Advocate Berger would ask you a fact and you say you don't have any knowledge of it or at a certain stage you'll say even that it didn't happen that way but thereafter Mr Berger will refer to your affidavit and pick up that fact.  Now can you tell us why did that happen, that you will say something didn't happen but when you are confronted with your affidavit, you'll then consider that it did happen?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say it's been a long time since this thing happened, I therefore am not in the position to remember everything that happened.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell me whether there's any reason perhaps why most of the time when Mr Berger was asking questions you wouldn't respond, you would perhaps kick up an argument with him and not give him a question.  Is that perhaps a reason for doing that and answering him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not in a position to answer some of the things because it's been a long time now.

MR SIBANYONI: Is that the reason why you were not responding immediately to his questions?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir and also if he asks me the question, I should have to listen very carefully as to what answer he was looking for, I too had to take time to think.

MR SIBANYONI: I did ask you a question about possibility of fear, I want to repeat that question just to get clarity.  When you tell your story before this Committee, it would appear that you go as far as what you personally did and as far what those two people, who are deceased, Mabode and Tjonjo did and only one of your co-applicants, Khanyile, but he said he is your friend, a close friend.  That gives me the impression that you are afraid to talk about what other people did who are not close to you.  What is your comment about that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am here sir, not afraid of anyone, I have come here wholeheartedly.  I am therefore not afraid to say things.  I cannot say things that they did or did not do, I'm not afraid of anyone.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you passed standard nine which is the first year in matric, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And then, may I just say to you it doesn't sound, auger very well when you kept on saying you are not educated, you didn't even know what position Themba Khosa had in the IFP - what is your response to that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was answering pertaining to how I view things, indicating that there is nowhere I can go with this level of education.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you pass standard nine or did you go as far as?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Concerning you licences to possess firearms, you said you only had two?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That's correct, sir, even now I have only two.

MR SIBANYONI: Although your identity document reflects three licences, you didn't have a third gun, I suppose, it was only a licence that was issued to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explained earlier on that I was supposed to receive the first licence and it was cancelled, if you can get hold of my identity document it will clearly indicate that the first licence was cancelled because the numbers were not corresponding with the firearm.

MR SIBANYONI: The reason you said you didn't use your licensed firearm during the attack is it because you regarded the attack as something which perhaps was unlawful, perhaps you wouldn't use your licensed firearm as when you are protecting yourself or what was the reason?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: These were legal firearms and I therefore could not use these firearms knowing fully well that they were not meant for political reasons or motives.

MR SIBANYONI: When those firearms licences were issued to you, you already had criminal record, I heard you talking about you had various criminal records even from long ago?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know that sir as to whether I had criminal records or not.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were asked about the word hit squad you said it was a computer error, but as a person who passed standard nine definitely would know that for a computer to print a word, somebody had to feed that computer with the word.  Did you at any stage when you were deposing to your affidavits, using the word hit squad because it appears more than once?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I explained that I did not write the affidavit myself.

MR SIBANYONI: You didn't write the affidavit?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were deposing to the affidavit in English, in other words you were speaking English, nobody had to interpret what you were saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, there were only two of us, myself and the lawyer.

MR SIBANYONI: Then you speaking English?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think I was speaking English because he is white, because the legal representative is white.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you speak English or you think you spoke English?  Okay, I'll leave that.
	Mr Mthembu,you said people who were harassed, tortured at Boipatong were Zulus and IFP members, did I understand you correctly?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir, you understood me well.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you agree that people who were attacked, in other words victims, some of them were Zulus?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Would you please repeat, sir?

MR SIBANYONI: My question is, some of the people who were attacked, some of the victims who were attacked at Boipatong are Zulus?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that, sir.

MR SIBANYONI: My point is, do you concede that amongst the people who were attacked, some of them are not ANC and some of them are people who you saying were under attack by the ANC?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not a resident of Boipatong, what I can say is the people who were attacked were ANC people involved in politics.

MR SIBANYONI: From how long have you known this man from Msinga, the Msinga contingent, for how long have you been with them at the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: When I arrived in 1990, they were already there, right up to 1992.

MR SIBANYONI: Three years you were with them?