Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

MR VERSTER: I shall say what I want to say, Mr Chairperson.  The entire endeavour was to prevent that information reaches the Harms Commission which was applicable during those times, for the reasons that I have mentioned.  And I would like to add by saying, if one looks at what - I did not get an opportunity to say this earlier, when Braam went to Special Forces Headquarters, I would like to put it to you that although I was not present it was said to me at that stage that there was another reason why these files were being looked for.  This was in order to remove documentation from the files.  The reason was to withhold the State's accountability with regard to these files and from my side I am trying to make this evidence available.  So the whole endeavour in the Harms Commission was within that context as I have sketched to you, there was no other intention other than survival.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression yesterday or the day before that with regard to the disappearance of the file you were invited to attend the burning ceremony or whatever it was, but you declined to go.  Was that long after this?

MR VERSTER: This was after the whole process of the conclusion of the CCB.

CHAIRPERSON: So when would that have been, the burning of the files that you were speaking about the other day, yesterday?

MR VERSTER: What I referred to was in terms of the financial plan after the CCB had been disbanded entirely.  I never again, not even in this instance had anything to do with the files, I did not even know in whose possession it was.  And then we received official documents from the documents that were - from people who were responsible for documents, and they told us that we could be present when the files are destroyed.

CHAIRPERSON: And prior to that were any files removed or hidden or put in another place or destroyed?

MR VERSTER: We attempted before the Harms Commission and during the Harms Commission, to protect the documentation and the proof that we had.  So at the time when I could still go to my premises, we did that Mr Chairperson.  But for example, later this became a game in the media when the files were back, according to my knowledge at that stage, they were back in the office but it was still told to the media that the files were still missing.

CHAIRPERSON: Just correct me if I'm wrong - sorry, Mr Bizos to interrupt.
	If you've got a file which says, just for instance "Dullah Omar File", it's been decided to monitor Mr Omar and also to kill him, in the file, that is the authorisation given down to the ground, there in the file, then you go to the Harms Commission, but prior to going to the Harms Commission that file is hidden away, right, no-one can have access to it.  Then you go to the Harms Commission and then nothing comes out about the conspiracy, from your evidence, wouldn't you be in a worse position to return that file afterwards?  Wouldn't it be better to destroy that file forever?  Because if it comes back again, then they can see that what you said in the Commission and what is contained in the file is wrong.

MR VERSTER: That is indeed so, but I was then isolated, Mr Chairperson, I could not reach any files.  I was excluded from the premises, I was entirely isolated and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So what happened to those files that were hidden before?

MR VERSTER: I don't know, Mr Chairperson, I never again went there and what I had said in the Commission the other day was that some of the people who along with me had attempted to oppose our handling, someone went back and later reported that he placed documentation in these files and that was in the premises where I could not go any longer.  I think I told you the first or second day.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, and just one aspect on the - so there were files for all these projects?

MR VERSTER: For every activity there was a file.

CHAIRPERSON: Notwithstanding the fact that they were covert?

MR VERSTER: It was written in project names and administrative approaches, but we knew how it worked.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Bizos, if I could just interpose again please, just on this issue because I'm now confused totally.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, of course.

MR LAX: I understood, certainly from what's been read here in this Harms transcript and what the Chair's put to you, that at some point you yourself gave an instruction for those files, as part of that "noodplan", to be removed.

MR VERSTER: Yes, that is correct.  That was before the Harms Commission.

MR LAX: Precisely.

MR VERSTER: It was part of the process.

MR LAX: So you knew exactly where the files were because you had given the instruction for them to be removed in terms of a plan which you had drawn up.

MR VERSTER: This plan broadly was, as I recall it, it was actually a process according to which files were kept at a point, a DLB system and that was it. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR LAX: Yes no, I understand that.  So you didn't know the exact location of the files, but you knew they were under someone's control in terms of a plan, and that you had in fact authorised the removal of those files.

MR VERSTER: According to a procedure, yes.

MR LAX: What I don't understand is, you've spoken at length about this conspiracy against the CCB, as you saw it, why put the files back where they were supposed to be?

MR VERSTER: I was no longer there anymore, I don't know, I could not go to those premises anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's similar to what I was trying to ask.  Why weren't the files destroyed, what's the point in keeping a highly dangerous or potentially dangerous file, a file that could cause a lot of problems?

MR VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether the audit had already been completed or whether it was then still about irregular expenditures, but during that time I was sacked and then the Court appoints me again and then I am sacked again, so during that time when these files - I cannot even recall whether it was after the Harms Commission, whether they were destroyed or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take the files yourself when you ...(intervention)

MR VERSTER: No, no, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: You just ordered somebody to do it.  Was that Braam?

MR VERSTER: Before then we had a plan and that was if there was a problem and we have to use these files later in order to prove ourselves, certain of the files were in my safe initially and then we took the files away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: When was this invitation to go and take part in this bonfire or witness this bonfire of the files?

MR VERSTER: It must have been at the middle or the end of '94, or somewhere in 1994 or the end of '93, I cannot  ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: In any event, long after the Harms Commission had done the work as best it could and the report had been filed.

MR VERSTER: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.