Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In retrospect one of the biggest mistakes and I will say this with regard to our placement, was that we were dealt with in general whereas we should have been handled individually, it would have led to much greater success.  Mr Barnard was indeed handled as an individual who had a single person link to the higher authority.

MR WESSELS: And did he tell you that he was working on those terms?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In broad terms yes.

MR WESSELS: And did he tell you who his handler was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not initially but at a later stage he told me the name of the person, who I didn't know.

MR WESSELS: Yes, but when he initially told you that he was also working for the organisation, did he also tell you that he was working on the basis of a handler through to the top?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He used mutual words such as in-house, pre-study, handler, Joe Verster, that class of words.

MR WESSELS: But it was exactly the same working method that you followed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, except as I told you, we functioned in a cell, everyone had his own projects but Mr Barnard functioned individually on the ideal basis as I saw it.

MR WESSELS: And you said that the only difference between you and him was that there was more view?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, it was more about the coverage and credibility within the community regarding your involvement with a specific blue plan.

MR WESSELS: I don't understand.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Then I will explain to you briefly.  The fact that we were part of Mathyssen Bus Service was an initial problem, many questions arose regarding the fact that we were actually working for Mathyssen Bus Services.  What emanated from that was the fact that every person had to establish his own blue plan subsequently.

MR WESSELS: And that is when you started working according to the same way that Barnard did?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With the exception of the co-ordination sessions which still took place on a collective basis, the salaries were paid out to a region, we had one Co-ordinator who handled all four of us.  So there was still differences.

MR WESSELS: Yes, that is what I put to you.  His working method was the same as yours, but as far as you understood it he was the only one in that cell in which he operated, while you were fourscore in that cell?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: May I just ask something Mr Wessels, I just want to go back quickly because the same issue arose yesterday and I didn't want to waste time then, but it's happened twice in a row.  Can I just clarify this?
	You said this is apropos his handler ...

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Excuse me Mr Lax?

MR LAX: With regard to his handler.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: You said he mentioned the name of a person and you didn't know this person.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR LAX: What name did he mention to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Lafras Luitingh.

MR LAX: He used his real name?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.  He mentioned the name Louis as well, but he said he knew who it was.

MR LAX: Yes and you - well, hang on a second.  Did he use his cover name, i.e. Louis, or did he use the name Lafras Luitingh?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In all probability he would have said: "My handler is Louis, he uses the codename Louis but I know it is Lafras Luitingh."  Something to that effect.

MR LAX: And you didn't know that person at all?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at all.

MR LAX: Had you not met Louis?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Sir.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WESSELS: And this was during 1988?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Approximately, yes.

MR WESSELS: In 1988 you were not yet applied operationally, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: In the first quarter of 1989 you were not yet operational.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Although in '88 I went to South West.  So one could probably also view that as a form of an instruction to visit South West Africa.

MR WESSELS: And what did you do there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I went to examine the situation that was in existence there before the election.

MR WESSELS: But it wasn't an operational project as such, it was aimed at examining the situation there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was an instruction.

MR WESSELS: And this was in '88.  And subsequently you received a few names to work on for the first time in 1989?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: When did you receive those names?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Approximately during April.

MR WESSELS: In April 1989.  Very well.  At the end of 1988 there was a problem between Mr Barnard and Mr Luitingh which had to do with one McQuillan and there was the perception with Mr Luitingh that Mr Barnard had jeopardised the existence of the organisation and his own identity due a leakage of information, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it was mentioned to me in general terms.

MR WESSELS: Yes just generally you were informed by Mr Barnard that this was the situation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He said that there was a problem.

MR WESSELS: And that Mr Luitingh had blamed him for this breach of security which had taken place.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And then early in 1989 there was another security breach which once again had to do with Mr McQuillan, where Mr Barnard, despite Mr Luitingh's instruction not to have contact with Mr McQuillan, went ahead and did it and assisted McQuillan with Brig Victor.  Did he also tell you about that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I vaguely recall the incident.

MR WESSELS: So you knew that Mr Barnard upon two occasions, had experienced problems regarding security breaches in terms of his conduct, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Although he justified his conduct, if I think back.

MR WESSELS: Yes, he tried to rationalise it by saying that he thought he had to go and help the man because he needed him and so forth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that McQuillan contacted him, etcetera.

MR WESSELS: Yes.  And after you were at your training course you realised that Mr Verster and Mr Luitingh must have been rather upset regarding this security breach in light of everything that you were taught regarding the CCB and the method of action during the training course, isn't that so, Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: Yes, you realised it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did.

MR WESSELS: Then I would just like to take a leap forward for a while.  At the end of the year you were arrested.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, in 1989.

MR WESSELS: When were you arrested?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Approximately November.

MR WESSELS: Did you expect that you would be arrested or did it come as a shock?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a shock.

MR WESSELS: And you also testified here earlier that you were very upset, that you believed unconditionally that you would not be prosecuted of anything and that the organisation would support you, because those were the promises which were made to you during the training course.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Yes, and you also testified that you were worried about Mr Barnard because he was arrested at approximately the same time.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Before me.

MR WESSELS: Oh, he was arrested before you.  How long before you was he arrested?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't recall the dates.

MR WESSELS: Approximately.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There were two occasions upon which he picked up problems.  Possibly approximately two to three weeks before me.

MR WESSELS: And did you know the reason for his arrest?  What did the rumours lead you to believe, why was Mr Barnard being detained in terms of Section 29?  Because Section 29 detention would be applied for those who were suspected of involvement with acts of terrorism against the State.