Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, did you not say that you didn't know any one of them personally?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I didn't know any one of them personally, no.

MR MALAN: You simply knew of activities in which they were involved?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR MALAN: So why did you think that they would not be prepared to become informers?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I wasn't going to try and turn them Mr Chairman, it wasn't my area of responsibility in the first place.

MR MALAN: If I heard you correctly, you were saying that you never, ever thought that they would become informers?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: In my brief association with the parties involved, there was no time Mr Chairman, to make an assessment on that.

MR MALAN: Was there no time, or was it not the objective?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It certainly wasn't my objective Mr Chairman, I don't know about other members.

MR MALAN: You never considered that, that is really what it comes to?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No sir.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MALAN: So you cannot say that you never, ever thought that they would become informers?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No.

MR VISSER: Well, on that point, what was your experience about more than one person being together and being able to be convinced to become informers?  Was that easier or more difficult?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, that is exactly the difficult starting point Mr Chairman.  Should three persons be captured together, one will find that it is most difficult to try and turn or make informers of persons in that situation.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, why didn't you charge them?   Why were they not charged if they were found with the limpet mines?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I am unable to, the decision wouldn't have been mine, and I am unable to pass comment on that Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You followed orders?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Apart from the evidence which you gave regarding political situation and the political objectives relating to this incident, did you also hear the evidence of Mr Botha?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And that of Mr Steyn?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Steyn.

MR VISSER: And do you also make common cause with what they stated in that regard?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I do sir.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR NOLTE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Prior on behalf of the Amnesty Committee, Evidence Leader, and also standing in for Mr Ngubane, on behalf of the victims.
	Mr Chairman, with your leave I will start with the kwaMashu 3 and then work backwards, those are freshest, if it will not inconvenience anyone.
	Mr Wasserman, what would have happened to you if you had said to Mr Botha, look, I don't want part of this, I don't want to follow this order?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I would imagine my days on the Intelligence gathering unit, might have been numbered.

ADV PRIOR: Do you think he would have sidelined you or had you transferred?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes  Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: In order to keep your employment with that unit, you decided to carry out this unlawful command?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, once the command was evident to me, I also accepted it.

ADV PRIOR: So it wasn't just a question of following orders, you made common cause or made common purpose with what was going down there, what was happening?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.

ADV PRIOR: It wasn't so much the order that moved you, as the activity of your unit?  You were killing operatives at that stage, that was the strategy, is that not so?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was one finger on the fist Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Well, you had these people dead to sites, you had them with mini limpet mines, you could have charged them, they would have got at least six, seven, eight years possibly, taken out of circulation.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Would that have been quite a thing to put together, an investigation in the light of the acquittals of Bhila and Nxiweni in Ramlakan?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, I don't think so Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: It was simply expedient for your purposes or your unit's purposes, to eliminate them as you did?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, it was part of the fight against the military fight that was waging at the time, some could be handled by Courts, other actions just didn't seem so.

ADV PRIOR: And as decided by the Durban branch of the Security Police?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: As decided by my command structure, at least I know that.

MR VISSER: Taylor at Botha?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: At least I know of my command structure, yes sir.

MR VISSER: The evidence of Mr Forster and of Mr Botha, was that primarily the task or the object was always information gathering.  Is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: You have been asked this by a member of the panel.  Can you think of any reason given your experience, background, in the field, why even an attempt was not made to try and turn these, the kwaMashu 3?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't know if the other parties did try to turn any of these personalities.  In my presence it didn't occur.
	I don't know amongst themselves, if they tried.  But also it gets to the point of when there are three picked up, if one agreed, the other two would be in the way, so  that is the difficulty in this particular instance.

ADV PRIOR: Do you know how they were arrested or picked up, in other words what plan or what legend was created?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, I was briefed to meet my unit, and we were to effect the capture on the Avoca Bridge Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did it appear to you as if they were waiting for people that they knew?  In other words a rendezvous?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: So they expected to meet comrades, was that part of the plan?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't know what they were told, whether it was to be comrades or finances or somebody, but they were to meet somebody.

ADV PRIOR: And those informers, were they present on that occasion, or not?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And you said those informers were handled by Mr Botha?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I think that is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: You don't know if they are the same people in the Ndwandwe matter?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't know that Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: You say you had a Scorpion pistol, who issued you that weapon?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was the ANC's weapon Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Where did you, where did you obtain it from?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I obtained it from an ANC DLB that was lifted.

ADV PRIOR: Was that the one at Allan Taylor as you say?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.  We lifted hundreds of DLB's, I can't recall which one this one came from.

ADV PRIOR: Did you simply keep those weapons under your control, that is the Security Branch, Durban, to use whenever you felt like it?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: So those weapons would not necessarily have been handed in through the official channels?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No sir.

ADV PRIOR: And the other persons, Botha and Du Preez, what were they armed with, similar weapons?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was also Scorpions yes.

ADV PRIOR: Also silenced?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Also silenced, yes.

ADV PRIOR: If we can just go now to Pumeso Nxiweni.  This Allan Taylor unit, you say all you can recall is that Nxiweni was the Overall Commander?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Round about this stage, yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: You can't remember anybody else that possibly was a member?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I would be wrong to just add up names, I can't recall names right now.