Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I would like to call the next applicant Mr M T Mvelase.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvelase, what language would you prefer to use?

MR MVELASE: Zulu.

MR MVELASE: (sworn states)

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
   Mr Mvelase, you heard the evidence given today by Mr Sigudu, you also filled out an application for amnesty in December of 1996 for which you then want to apply for amnesty.  Could you just start by very briefly telling this Commission what happened on that particular day of the incident.

MR MVELASE: On the 3rd of December it so happened that we went to rob and we killed unintentionally.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, you say that you went to rob, did you act on instruction from anyone?

MR MVELASE: Yes, we were following instructions that had come from Wiseman.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, are you a member of or affiliated with any political party?

MR MVELASE: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Can you just explain which party and in which capacity.

MR MVELASE: I am a member of the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: At the time of the commission of this offence were you a member of the IFP at that stage and what was your capacity then?

MR MVELASE: I was as I still am, a member of the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: Were you a written-in card carrying member or just a supporter?

MR MVELASE: I did not have any position.

MR CLAASSEN: You also lived at that stage with Mr Sigudu in Dube Hostel, is that correct?

MR MVELASE: Yes, that is correct, we resided in the hostel but not in the same house, we were not sharing accommodation.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, you indicated that you received an instruction from a Mr Wiseman, did you know him prior to this incident, and in what capacity did you know him?

MR MVELASE: I knew Wiseman as a member occupying a position which I did not quite know well.  He presented himself as somebody who had a position within the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he present himself in that fashion, on the day of the murder, or sometime before that or what?

MR MVELASE: It was before the murder.  He used to attend all the meetings that we had, that is IFP meetings.  He used to organise quite a lot.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, you have just indicated that you acted on an instruction given by this Mr Wiseman, could you just carefully explain to the court, to the Committee what this instruction entailed, what was decided?

MR MVELASE: The instruction was that we should go out and rob, the instruction was to go out and rob the money, which would in turn be used to further the aims of the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, this plan that you are referring to, or this instruction, was it a plan that was planned beforehand, there was a specific plan which was to be followed?

MR MVELASE: Yes, there was a plan.

MR CLAASSEN: And you knew beforehand what this plan entailed?

MR MVELASE: Yes, the plan was that we should go out and rob, get hold of some money to further the aims and meet the needs of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all very well, but tell us, what are the details of this plan, were you going to rob a bank or a person or a van or what?

MR MVELASE: The plan was that we should go and rob that lady of her money or the money, and bring the money back and hand this money over to Wiseman who would hand it over to others within the leadership, his co-leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: A plan.  When was this plan discussed?

MR MVELASE: If I still remember very well, it was at the end of the month, that is the end of the month of November, it could have been the 30th.

CHAIRPERSON: That was a few days before the actual incident?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, in this discussion you knew that this particular lady was going to be the target?

MR MVELASE: Yes, that is when we learnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know this lady before?

MR MVELASE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know which lady it would be?

MR MVELASE: We discussed this by way of planning, so that one of us, Sampson Manqele had to go to the place to sort of reconnoitre, and he came back to report to us and said we could then go.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that place not a place where Wiseman used to work?

MR MVELASE: I don't know whether he was once employed there.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Mvelase, before you got to the point that Wiseman gave the instruction you said that it was to be done for a specific reason, what was this and why was this decided?

MR MVELASE: Would you please repeat the question.

MR CLAASSEN: Why did you want to go and rob this money?

MR MVELASE: The intention was to meet the needs of the IFP.

ADV SIGODI: So do you know who Wiseman was going to give the money to?

MR MVELASE: No.  He is the one who knew.

ADV SIGODI: But did you not ask him?

MR MVELASE: On asking him, he indicated that he was going to pass it on to other leaders.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Mvelase, this money was never given as you say it was intended, why not?

MR MVELASE: The reason is because we did not get the money as we intended, instead the money was left at the scene of the crime.

DR TSOTSI: Just a moment, excuse my interruption there.  To whom was Wiseman going, to which leaders was he going to give this money, do you know?

MR MVELASE: He was to hand this money over to other leaders within the Dube Hostel.

DR TSOTSI: Who are they, I want to get their names.

MR MVELASE: The names include Mr Hlongwane, Ndlovo, and many others, some of whom have since passed away.

ADV SIGODI: Did Mr Kanyele tell you who had given him the orders, where he got his orders from?

MR MVELASE: No he did not say.

ADV SIGODI: And you did not see it necessary to ask him?

MR MVELASE: When he came up with this idea, I readily accepted because I wanted as well to meet the needs of the IFP.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know that the IFP had a military wing?

MR MVELASE: No, I did not know that.

ADV SIGODI: What reason did you have to follow the instructions of Mr Kanyele?

MR MVELASE: I perceived him as one of the members of the IFP, that is the reason I acted on his instructions.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but he was an ordinary member as far you were concerned, isn't it?

MR MVELASE: Yes, he was a member, because he was an organiser, very active.

ADV SIGODI: But he had no authority over you, did he?

MR MVELASE: He did have authority as a member of the IFP.

ADV SIGODI: What would have happened to you if you had not listened to him?  What would the organisation have done to you if you had not listened to Mr Kanyele?

MR MVELASE: I would not know, but I don't think something would have happened to us because that which we did was something we agreed with.

ADV SIGODI: I am saying, if you had not agreed to follow Mr Kanyele's instructions, what would have happened to you?  Is there anything that the organisation could have done to you?

MR MVELASE: No, I don't think the organisation would have done something because I don't think the organisation knew about this.

ADV SIGODI: So at the time you did not think that the organisation knew about this so what reason did you have be believe that Mr Kanyele had authority over you?

MR MVELASE: I believed that he had authority because he was active as an organiser within the IFP, deeply involved with the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't the IFP's policy to rob and kill people, isn't it?

MR MVELASE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you going to explain to the IFP where this money came from and this murder?

MR MVELASE: The one person who was to make the explanation was Wiseman himself.

CHAIRPERSON: You, as a member of the IFP would also have to answer isn't it?  You brought the IFP to disrepute.

MR MVELASE: That is correct.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR MVELASE: May the question please be repeated.