Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

MS COLLETT: Did you carry out all these attacks in line with your orders as a soldier of APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, as you are no doubt aware, there were people who were killed in some of these attacks and people that were injured, you know that do you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MS COLLETT: People were killed and injured in these various attacks, do you agree?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: What is your feeling about that now?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Firstly, I'm not happy, I don't feel happy that today I am where I am about things that had happened, that despite the fact that I did those under instructions having received those instructions and as I was forced to do those.
	But today I feel sorry for the families and relatives and next of kin of those who lost their lives and those who were injured in all those things and activities I was involved in.

MS COLLETT: And do you have a message for those people?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The message I have for the victims is that I ask for forgiveness because what happened I did not do because I liked or because they were from my own opinion, but I was following instructions that I was forced to carry out.

MS COLLETT: Did you believe that the instructions that you were forced to carry out would liberate the black people of South Africa?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that why you carried them out?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that why you became a member of APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: You were very young at the time, do you think that also affected your choices?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the questions please be repeated.

MS COLLETT: You were very young at the time that you belonged to APLA, do you think that this affected your choices?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As a soldier myself at the time I was compelled to do everything I was instructed to do without contradicting it, I had no right to question my instructions.

MS COLLETT: If you are granted amnesty, what do you intend doing with your life?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: My intentions are to go back to school and continue with my studies because I had left them in the middle.  I want to go on and prepare my future and that of my parents.

MS COLLETT: How long have you been in prison?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was arrested on the 10th of August 1994.

MS COLLETT: Have you been in prison since that date?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And have you had a lot of time to think about what happened and what you're going to do in the future?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Is there anything further that you would like to tell the Committee at this stage?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I'd like to say is that today I'm here with the intention of coming to ask for amnesty for everything that happened and I'm asking for the Commission to give me amnesty.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: The normal procedure Mr Prior, would be for the applicant now to be questioned by those appearing for the victims and interested parties.  I see we have somebody sitting on my right who was not there at the commencement but he is for an interested party Mr Ntongo, aren't you?  You're not for any of the victims?

MR NTONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are any of the victims present who would wish to put questions themselves?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman yes, the two widows of the deceased in the Bahai, two of the deceased in the Bahai matter are present and they indicated to me on Tuesday that they wished to - I explained to them the process and indicated that I would be questioning the applicants and they said:  notwithstanding that, they would like to ask questions themselves.  Maybe it would be opportune to maybe ask them to come up.

CHAIRPERSON: It might be more realistic to ask them to listen carefully to the questions that are put by you too gentlemen and for them then to ask questions about anything that has not been dealt with, but they certainly will be given an opportunity to ask questions.  Are they aware of that?  Are they still present in the hall at the present time?

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I see Mrs Resavi - sorry, I think they left the hall for a short while so maybe I should proceed with questioning Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, the political training that you received, you said was to identify the political enemy of APLA, which was the white people of South Africa:
"The government, military and police of any black or white person that supported them"
	Did that necessarily entail that you did not discriminate between black civilians or white civilians as being your legitimate targets?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: For example, the person at the Nahoon Dam turnoff, the black person that was shot, why was he shoot?  Can you maybe explain that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I said at the beginning, the late Kid, after he became angry he disembarked from the car, he hit a kombi because it had two white people.  It was only, he had hit the car from the back when it was turning and the black person was only seen when he was jumping off.

ADV PRIOR: I understand from that that you did not want to - you never participated in that shooting at the kombi at Nahoon turnoff, it was something that Kid did out of anger or frustration?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: It wasn't part of the plan of your unit on that day?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That kombi that he hit was not part of the plan.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying to the Committee today that you didn't associate yourself at all with what Kid did?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was not something that was decided, he simply did it out of his own.

ADV PRIOR: Did you remonstrate or did anyone remonstrate with Kid for having perhaps acted out of anger of frustration?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Who spoke with Kid what?

ADV PRIOR: No, I'm asking you, you were in the car or the vehicle with other people of your unit, you say Kid got out of frustration and out of anger, this wasn't part of the plan, he just shot at this kombi.  I'm asking: Was there any reaction from yourself or anyone else in the vehicle to remonstrate with Kid to say: "Well, maybe your putting our plans in jeopardy, you can't act out of, or the way you acted", was anything like that said to him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, there was.

ADV PRIOR: What was said and who said it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The unit commander told him that what he had done he must never do again because it was not part of the plan and he had done that out of his own.

ADV PRIOR: Can you think back to the time when you appeared before - I think it's Mr Justice Liebenberg, in the trial, was that position or was that explanation advanced during that trial?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Which, what are you referring to you?

ADV PRIOR: The trial, I think it was in Bisho - sorry, East London where you were on trial for the Nahoon, Da Gama and Highgate attacks, I understood you received an effective sentence of 16 years, was that matter ever raised that Kid had acted out of his own and you had not associated yourself with that act, in other words it was beyond your control?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well what happened there at Court.

ADV PRIOR: I may speak under correction, but my understanding of the judgement is that the defence that you put up there was that you were under force, you were under a sort of duress to participate in all these acts and actually you feared that if you hadn't gone along with the group, that you may also have been injured or even killed.  Wasn't that in fact the line of defence that you adopted?