Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Kamanda - K-a-m-a-n-d-a.  His surname is Thabedi.  This Kamanda, we assault - he was - we assaulted him more, even when we meet him on the street we'll assault him with fists, we'll kick him.  On day at school, it was during the break time, I still remember I was together with Constable Mancho - he was present and the late Zeba and Mamome.  He ran away - it was during the break time, he ran to other places where he joined Umkhonto weSizwe until he was killed in Bloemfontein in Cairo.  The place called Cairo is in Heidedal.
	Serame Lifi.  That is Serame Lifi, not Molifi as it is written - it's fi at the end.   He's a member of Pan Africanist Congress.  He had knowledge about the task force which is a unit of APLA.  He was problematic or troublesome.  We were not able to identify his movements - he used to walk on foot, he didn't meet people even when he went to Lesotho he was always alone.
	It was in the morning when we were able to find him.  Jantjie was present and then they had information from Lesotho about him.  When I speak of Jantjie, I speak of a certain person in Ladybrand who is Warrant Officer Jantjie.  They found information from Lesotho that this person has knowledge about APLA in Lesotho.  
	We took him - it was in the morning.  He was assaulted and he was screaming.  When I opened the door he was wrapped in a blanket.   I didn't want to see who were responsible for the assault because he was quiet and he wrapped with a blanket and lying on the floor.  He would explain very well that who were responsible for his assault.
	Those who appear on 22 - the other one is Kaizer and this younger one, he came from Vulamasango.  He was on the street because he was assaulted by us.  He did the chicken piece exercise.  He is totally mentally disturbed.  We tried to look for him together with the Truth Commission staff.  They know that's he's somewhere in the shack houses but that is why I was not able to identify him.
	The old man Chani - Outata Chani, he was assaulted because he was an MK member.  They tried to use him but because of his wisdom and his training which he received from overseas, he used his discretion or knowledge that he knew that he was going to be used.  He is from my hands and my insults - I don't know as whether  should I mention the insults, should I?

ADV MEMANI: Yes you may.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what they are, do you know whether it's relevant Mr Memani, he's your client?

ADV MEMANI: Well an insult has got a potential to give rise to a charge of - you know - what is it called, crimen injuria and if there was an insult then he must say what the insult was, that's my understanding.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, it need not be dealt with at the hearing because it's not a gross violation but carry on.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No English translation.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I insulted him through his mother on the private parts.  He was affected by that then I was able to see that he is angry then if he was near, would do me something.  After I assaulted him I left there and he was left with the Ascaris.  He would explain his version how the Ascaris assaulted him.
	Norman Chani.  He's the brother to the one who appears above, if I'm not mistaken but I know that they are from the same family.  We picked him up in the morning but I didn't take part in the assault.  The one who appears above would be able to explain people who were responsible for the assault of the other one who appears under.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they taken on the same day, these two?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, they were not taken on the same day.  Norman Chani was taken first but the one who has more information is the one who appears above, that is Outata Chani.  He was inland - they don't know as whether he was in Cape Town or Johannesburg.  When Norman Chani was able to make friendship with Sergeant Mamome so that they should not continue with the assault but he was assaulted badly.  He would be able to identify people who assaulted him in the 4th floor, who were members of the MK unit and ANC.
	On the 25th, I forgot the names of those members of Umkhonto weSizwe.  I forgot their names because it is in this way - they were using code names and I forgot those code names also.  We assaulted them.
	Let's go to 26.  I don't know how they can be identified - they were members of the task force who were residing in Ficksburg.  They hid ...[inaudible] somewhere in Ficksburg.  They were arrested together with Djekila and Mr Dikotsi.  I didn't enlist his name there.  One of them was Mr Dikotsi and the other one is Mbelembele - he was staying in Transkei.  
	They were assaulted badly because we were digging information from them about the Ficksburg incident, as to whether what happened in Ficksburg.  At that time when they were assaulted - I don't talk of a thing which happened many years back, it's something which happened in the early '90's, around '92 and '93.  They were assaulted by the Ascaris together with the leader of the Ascaris.

ADV DE JAGER: What was the Ficksburg incident you're talking about?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They threw hand grenades, petrol bombs.  They used - there is a certain term which was used by APLA, it is a stick or a wood - it is cut this size, then they would put spikes, then they would open with a grenade, then they would through those ...[inaudible] or that when you throw down, you'd fall under those spikes or on top of the spikes.
	These members of the task force were trained inside South Africa, though some of them were trained in Transkei to use firearms, explosives and grenades to find ammunition from the police to help APLA when they have an attack which they want to do inside the country.  They wanted to control the economy of the land.  That is the information we received from Transkei and other places - that is from ...[inaudible].  
	The information which I know is that they should come to South Africa, they should attack the banks so that they should - they should make an impact to the economy of the country.  That information is in the files which I talked about that all of them were taken and with the members of various organisations.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes okay, but you're applying for amnesty in respect of assaults on them so could you keep to that please?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'll do that Sir.   This Jikila, he's also the same as those of task force together with Molifi - together with Sarame Molifi.  He was assaulted by the Ascaris.  Before that he was taken by us and then we tortured or assaulted him so that he succumb to be our informer so that we'd be able to dig information about APLA and task force but we failed because he didn't cooperate.
	All these, excluding the Pan Africanist Congress and the task force together with Jikila and Sarame Molifi, we'd put them on 26 above - all of them.  Shaw is the one who has given instructions and those who were underneath were transferred to Captain du Plooy because you cannot just go and fetch a person, you would be fetched under certain circumstances after the file has been opened.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, may we deal with the application contained in paragraph 14 at page 148 - the attempted murder on Oupa Makhubalo.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean 148 - page 148?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No English translation.

ADV MEMANI: Paragraph 14.