Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MR WILLS: Now we know, surely from half-past 7 in the morning, or let's be generous to you, from 8 o'clock in the morning of the 11th, surely because of the very fact that you've got this instruction and you realised what the sensitivity was, you knew that it had implications that affected the whole negotiation process at that stage, surely it would have been a normal thing for you to do, to communicate to your troops on the ground that "guys whatever happens, hold fire at this stage.  This is something bigger than even I imagined.  Don't do anything, we've got to get authority from high up and we have these instructions".  I want to know why you didn't do that.

H J P BOTHA: It was not necessary for me to liaise the information that the arrest is not to be made, that that would be the alpha and the omega.  The instruction from Gen van der Merwe was, "Do not arrest before all the instances were informed".  It was not an instruction that we could not arrest at all.   There was a difference between the two.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Botha, if I can just come in there.  I'll give you a chance to complete this later.  You did concede to me in evidence yesterday that you interpreted this as an instruction.  Are you changing your version now?

H J P BOTHA: No, I will say once again it was an instruction but it was how the instruction was interpreted by me.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, the instruction was not correct, the instruction was to delay until the relevant people had been informed.

MR WILLS: Yes, that's indeed so.  That was the instruction.  What I'm saying is that you get an instruction like this from, nobody in the police more senior could have given you this instruction.  The most senior person gives you this instruction and you know this instruction from before half-past 7 in the morning of the 11th.  You've got from the morning, half-past 7 in the morning of the 11th to, I think, my instructions are to the effect that the first arrests took place at lunch time on the morning of the 12th or midday on the 12th.  You've got more than 24 hours and you know from your evidence, you know that your men are engaged in surveillance operations.  I say that you would have said to them, "hold fire, continue with surveillance, but please do not arrest."

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I would have informed them as soon as I was back in Durban.  It was at no stage with me that it was important enough for me to contact them by telephone and tell them not to continue or don't make any arrests, it was not for them to arrest these people, that's why they kept these people under surveillance.

MR WILLS: When did you get back to Durban that day?

H J P BOTHA: We flew back from Pretoria and I was back the morning in Durban.

MR WILLS: So did you tell these people when you arrived back in Durban?

H J P BOTHA: Before I could convey the instruction to them, Gen du Preez and Laurie Wasserman had already been involved in the arrest of Nyanda.  I was at the offices when they arrived and reported that Nyanda had been arrested.

MR WILLS: So now are you saying that Nyanda was arrested on the 11th?

H J P BOTHA: Negative.  I say once again he was arrested on the 12th.  If you heard my evidence, the 10th I was in Pretoria, the morning of the 11th I informed Gen van der Merwe, and I returned from Pretoria the morning of the 12th, the same day which Nyanda was arrested.

MR WILLS: So are you saying that whilst you got this instruction and you're involved in this extremely important operation of national significance, that you hung around in Pretoria from half-past 7 on the 11th and you only flew back to Durban at lunch time on the 12th.  So you hung around in Pretoria for some days?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, the State President made a speech and information was conveyed to the National Intelligence.  It was important that we be present at any of these briefings so that we could inform them.

MR WILLS: So you stayed, it was so important this information that you stayed in Pretoria to brief the State President.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson as I've already said, this information was of value and Gen van der Merwe took some decisions and we executed our orders.

MR WILLS: So in other words, sorry this is new to me and excuse me, like my colleague my Afrikaans is not very good, but as I understand it, you have not in any of your statements, despite the fact that you've made two statements, indicated thus far that Gen van der Merwe requested you to delay your departure in order that you could be with him to brief the State President?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, at no stage did I say that Gen van der Merwe requested me, that was normal practice, it was an Intelligence component.  One conveys information to the departments which will do the briefings, there's nothing strange about this action.

MR WILLS: It's the first time that you've mentioned... Can I finish my question, with respect?  I will give you the opportunity to talk, Mr Botha.  Is this the first time that you have given evidence to the effect that you waited in Pretoria with the purpose of briefing the State President before your return.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I did not brief the State President, which followed after the meeting, was by Gen van der Merwe, that was a normal police function.  It was not necessary for me to give evidence to that.  It was irrelevant with regard to this application.

MR WILLS: I'm just asking a simple question, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was not relevant.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Chairperson, all I want to ask him is, is this the first time that this has come out?

CHAIRPERSON: This is the first time because it hasn't been asked before.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  So then you, what time did the briefing of the State President take place?

H J P BOTHA: Gen Pruis, Gen Basie Smit and Neil Barnard briefed the President.  I was not present, I don't know exactly what time the briefing took place.

MR WILLS: But surely if you were waiting for that to occur, in case you were needed, you would have at least known when you could go back?  You would have at least known the timing of that meeting?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I will say once again, my presence was there, I conveyed the information and the people prepared themselves for the briefing to the President.  If they needed further detail I was present to give it to him.
So when you got back to Durban, you were told immediately then that the arrest of Nyanda had taken place?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MR WILLS: And what time did you get back, sorry?  What time was this information conveyed to you on the 12th?

H J P BOTHA: If I recall correctly it was approximately 12 o'clock on the Thursday.

MR WILLS: And I believe then that some 15 or 14 other persons were arrested subsequent to that?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Yes, later that day.

H J P BOTHA: Or afterwards, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So my question remains, why, at that stage, did you not put a halt to the operations and to say to your men, "Hold fire.  Hold fire.  We have this instruction from Gen van der Merwe".  Why didn't you stop the subsequent arrests taking place?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I will once again explain.  It was not an instruction that we should not arrest at all.  It was  "Do not arrest now, wait, we will arrest later".  The arrest of Nyanda came because of the fact that the surveillance was detected, du Preez's surveillance and they had to arrest him.  What followed there was a natural reaction and as with any operation, one follows through so that these who were identified would also be arrested.

MR WILLS: Yes and you concede that some of these arrests took place as late as 9 o'clock on the evening of, or 12h00 on the 12th?

H J P BOTHA: From Nyanda's arrest, there was arrests right through.  There was no time as to when the others were arrested.