Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

VERNON NADEL: Well I'd like to say that it's unfortunate you think this.  If there is another enquiry and I'd be once again more than willing to appear.  I will not change what I've said because I believe and I know, if things were hidden, if things were covered up I was not in a position or was aware of it.  Obviously I can read between the lines as well and things do look rather strange.
 I was never privy to sensitive information if something did happen, ever heard about, so as far as  me changing my story I must be very honest and say that what I have said today is to the best of my knowledge what I know.

DR KLATZOW: Incidentally, there have been persistent statements made by crew members who are too frightened to make it under oath and to put their names to the statements but who have spoken to me, all of whom who have claimed that that tape was in existence, that the tape was listened to and that the tape was listened to by ZUR staff who knew the contents of that tape and that it was spoken about until they were upbraided by a senior official and they have never spoken of it again.  Do you deny that that happened?

VERNON NADEL: I deny that absolutely.  I have never heard the tape, the actual ZUR tape, I've heard transcripts of the tape from Mauritius tower, I've heard that tape, it was common knowledge, everybody heard it to the aircraft.  I've heard transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder, in my opinion are almost impossible to understand.

DR KLATZOW: But you are not an expert, Colonel Jansen who did it is an expert.

VERNON NADEL: No absolutely, and I don't deny that.  As far as actually listening to the ZUR tape I definitely deny that.

DR KLATZOW: You're a man of radio experience and you know that the CVR records the last half hour in the cockpit?

VERNON NADEL: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: The last half hour of that aircraft is recorded in a conversation with Plaisance Airport, isn't it?

VERNON NADEL: That is correct.

DR KLATZOW: Why is that not on the CVR?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Well could you advance an explanation?

VERNON NADEL: I'm not a radio expert as you pointed out.  I'm familiar with black boxes and radio frequencies and that sort of thing but I'm not an expert as far as.

DR KLATZOW: But it's a simple piece of logic Mr Nadel.  The last half hour is recorded for all to hear on the transcript from Plaisance Airport, isn't it?  You've heard that?  It starts with Springbok 269 we have a smoke problem.

VERNON NADEL: 295.

DR KLATZOW: 295, we have a smoke problem.  You've heard that?

VERNON NADEL: I've heard that, yes.

DR KLATZOW: Now if that occupies the last half hour of the existence of that aircraft, why was that or part of that conversation not on the cockpit voice recorder?  Can you suggest any explanation?

VERNON NADEL: No I cannot.

DR KLATZOW: Other than that the cockpit voice recorder occurred some time before that?

VERNON NADEL: I'm not an expert on cockpit voice recorders.

DR KLATZOW: Well Mr Nadel it's a simple piece of logic and you're fencing with me.  It's a simple piece of logic which I don't think you need to be anything of an expert more than you are to answer.  Can you think of a simple explanation?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: Can you fault the explanation that I have given you?

VERNON NADEL: I would once again like to say that I am not an expert so there could be technicalities that I am not aware of and I may be incriminating myself, I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Well Mr Nadel that's an interesting answer because that kind of attitude has pervaded your evidence.  And the point is a very simple one, a more telling answer than your refusal answer that question would be hard to imagine.

VERNON NADEL: If you maybe put it in simpler terms I could answer it.

DR KLATZOW: Two radio transmissions, two tape recorders are taping the same period of time.  Surely they should contain the same information?

VERNON NADEL: That's logical yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For my own understanding, Dr Klatzow, now what is a, can you give me which of these two, what are these two conversations?  One is on what and one is on what?

DR KLATZOW: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for a lay person.

DR KLATZOW: The last half hour of the Helderberg, starting with a conversation where the pilot identifies himself, he speaks to Plaisance Airports, says we have a smoke problem.  That occupies about the last half hour of that aircraft's life.  The cockpit voice recorder.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that now?  On the plane.

DR KLATZOW: The cockpit voice recorder is on the plane itself, should be taping the same conversation and yet not a word of the Plaisance conversation is found on the cockpit voice recorder and not a word of the cockpit voice recorder is found on the Plaisance conversation.  And there is only one explanation that I have put to the witness and that is that the cockpit voice recorder is at a period prior to the last half hour of the aircraft and there's other evidence to support that.

VERNON NADEL: Dr Klatzow thank you very much for clarifying that.  I was also, I must be very honest with you, a little confused about the cockpit voice recorder having two recordings.  I actually didn't realise you were referring to the tower at Plaisance Airport.

DR KLATZOW: I'm sorry.

VERNON NADEL: I apologise.

DR KLATZOW: Now do you agree with that?

VERNON NADEL: I understand yes.

DR KLATZOW: Do you agree with the proposition that I've put to you?

VERNON NADEL: Absolutely.

DR KLATZOW: There is no other explanation is there Mr Nadel?

VERNON NADEL: No, I agree with that.

DR KLATZOW: Now, if that fire occurred earlier, you would have expected Uys to contact you?

VERNON NADEL: Possibly, but if there were no communications.

DR KLATZOW: But there were communications outside ZUR.  You are trying to convince me and the Commission that that aircraft was incommunicado from the time that the first tape was changed 'til the time that it crashed and that is so unlikely as to be rejectable, out of hand.

VERNON NADEL: I'm not quite sure who changed the tape but I believe the tape was only changed after the Helderberg crashed.

DR KLATZOW: No, that is not correct Mr Nadel.  There are three tapes that concern us.  There is the tape which recorded the take-off from Taipei which came to an end, either shortly after you had come on duty or just before you had come on duty.  There is a second tape which is the one that went missing and there is a third tape which records the events on the following day.

VERNON NADEL: Okay I understand.

DR KLATZOW: It is the one in the middle that has gone missing.

VERNON NADEL: I understand.

DR KLATZOW: And it is, the reason, the reason is that it's gone missing without explanation, it has gone missing under the most suspicious of circumstances during the period of your tenure at the station and the explanations that you've given, all of them ring hollow.  Not one of them has the ring of truth about it.

VERNON NADEL: I just want to clarify as well that the radio station as I mentioned earlier is not part and parcel of the, it's part of the set up but it's not that everybody sits in the radio station.  The radio station is an office that could be down the hall.  It's not that I'm sitting in ZUR the whole time.

DR KLATZOW: But that's not the evidence that you've given.  The evidence that you've given is that the radio station is separated by a door and is no more than twenty metres away from you.

VERNON NADEL: Correct.  But as I'm saying I'm not necessarily in that office all the time.