Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: You left from Port Elizabeth, can you remember at what time of the day it was?  Was it during the morning or the afternoon?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: If I remember correctly it was early in the afternoon.

UNKNOWN: And then eventually you arrived in Bloemfontein.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Was it light or was it dark?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was already late in the evening.

UNKNOWN: What happened in Bloemfontein?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We went to a certain place I can't remember.  All I know was the vehicle was handed to me, that was Kondile's car.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember what type of car it was?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was a light coloured Datsun.

UNKNOWN: That was handed to you there, do you remember by whom?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It could have been by Capt du Plessis or van Rensburg, one of them.

UNKNOWN: And did you then leave Bloemfontein at one or other time?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: You are saying it's late in the evening and you were driving, who was in which vehicle?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Capt du Plessis, Colonel Nick van Rensburg and Kondile travelled in du Plessis' car and I drove Kondile's vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Who was in front and who was behind?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: They were in front and I followed them.

UNKNOWN: Did you travel fast?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No we could not because the vehicle was not in a good condition.

UNKNOWN: Whose vehicle?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: The Datsun was not in a good condition.

UNKNOWN: To cut a long story short, it was the next day the morning or that afternoon - first I want to say that.  O your way, you were travelling from Bloemfontein to where?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We were on our way to Komatipoort.

UNKNOWN: On your way to Komatipoort did you do anything to that Datsun vehicle?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes, near the border, I accept it's the Swaziland border there was a notice saying "Barberton".  I got instructions from van Rensburg to park the vehicle along the road and to leave it there with the keys in.

UNKNOWN: And what did you do then after you had parked it there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I then got into the other vehicle and drove further with them.

UNKNOWN: Then you came to Komatipoort and what time of the day was that, was it the morning or the afternoon?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I think it was late in the afternoon.

UNKNOWN: And I think it can be said it's common cause that Mr Dirk Coetzee was there, you met him there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Was there anybody with him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes there was somebody with him.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell us today who that person was?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Your Honour I have met that man there for the first time in my life.  I have forgotten his name, but later on I established that it was Roy Otto.

UNKNOWN: Can you describe him for us as you remembered him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can vaguely remember that he was a short, stockish man, he had a bald head.

UNKNOWN: You met Mr Coetzee and that person to whom we will refer to as Mr Otto, for the purposes of your evidence, and what happened then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: From there I drove with du Plessis, van Rensburg and Kondile in the same vehicle and we followed Otto and Coetzee in their vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Was there anybody else, any other policeman there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: And once again, to cut a long story short, you drove into the bush and there you parked the vehicles and got out. What did you do then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Well we got out of the vehicles and I saw that some wood had been gathered and at that stage I was extremely hungry and I gathered some more wood where we lit a fire and we prepared some food.

UNKNOWN: Mr Kondile, was he given any food?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And what happened in the meantime to him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: After we got out of the car he was sitting against a tree trunk and his hands were cuffed.  We gave him food to eat.  While we were standing around the fire Mr Coetzee offered him a drink or something.

UNKNOWN: What happened afterwards?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I noticed that Kondile slowly fell to one side and I suspected then that he perhaps felt sleepy.  I did not realise precisely what was going to happen.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear later on that it was alleged that sleeping drugs, or drops were put into his drink, you were not aware of it then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: What happened then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: The next moment somebody said this matter must be concluded now and then suddenly this person, this Roy Otto walked up to Kondile, he drew his pistol and a shot rang out.

UNKNOWN: One or more.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I only heard one shot.

UNKNOWN: Did that shot kill Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: It's history now and I understand, I am not going into that in detail, but Mr Kondile's body was burnt to ashes.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And then eventually you returned to Port Elizabeth.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And is that the sum total of your participation in this unhappy incident?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman would you bear with me a moment.
	Mr Raath I've previously referred you to Mr Danster.  Mr Danter's statement is found in volume 1.  Yes thank you Mr Chairman but more specifically at page 49 the second paragraph.  This Mr Danster in his statement submitted - and that is at page 48 I believe Mr Chairman, that he would accompany these people with you, that he would accompany you with Kondile, that it had happened on a Friday and that you would spend the weekend somewhere.  Do you know anything about this, or whether Mr Danster was ever asked to accompany you on that occasion where you went to eliminate him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: It was not put in cross-examination either.  I continue to page 49 where Mr Danster says that when you returned you, Mr Raath, bragged about the fact that you had taught Mr Kondile a lesson.  And then he asked you what kind of lesson you are referring.  He said that you then said his brains were blown apart.  And then he drew the inference that Kondile had been eliminated.  What are you saying about Mr Danster's version?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I deny that.

UNKNOWN: Is there any sense in informing him about Mr Kondile's elimination?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No it's not something to brag about.

ADV GCABASHE: But if I might ask Mr Raath, you were there "he was shot in the head", am I wrong?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't say whether he was hit in his head, I did not see where the bullet penetrated.  I only saw him falling.  I was shocked, I did not know what to expect at that stage.

ADV GCABASHE: My recollection is that the evidence was he was either shot through the ear or through the head, there wasn't any real certainty.  Now whichever portion of the head, be it the ear or the head, unless I have a very over-imaginative, whatever, his brain would spat.  Now I am simply trying to ascertain your observation and relate it to what is written in this particular affidavit that your counsel is referring to, this particular sentence.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes, his brains - I did not actually see his brains being blown apart and there is also no physical evidence that his brains were blown apart.

UNKNOWN: But while you accompanied Mr Kondile did he seem like somebody who was abnormally injured or anything like that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: Let me put it straight.  Did it appear as if he was a person who had the same serious brain injury leading to brain damage?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: What are the consequences of this incident Mr Raath, what consequences did it have for you and your family?