Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR SWANEPOEL: When, if Dr Basson were to visit RRL, he would probably be meeting with Dr Immelman.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: To discuss a project?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: You would not have had knowledge of that project because the link between the SADF projects was from Dr Basson to Dr Immelman?

MR SWANEPOEL: That was not the rule, there were occasions of which I knew, and occasions of which I did not know.

MR CHASKALSON: You clarified that for me earlier.  Earlier you had said that you knew of some of the projects if they came up in the course of financial matters or other matters, but you never had any understanding of what the nature of those projects were.

MR SWANEPOEL: That's correct.

MR CHASKALSON: That would apply to the present comments that you have just made as well?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's true.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you aware of the existence of a company by the name of Delta G?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: What did you know of Delta G?

MR SWANEPOEL: I did not know a great deal about Delta G.  I knew that it was a manufacturing facility and that it was part of Project Coast family.

MR CHASKALSON: Did RRL ever do any work for Delta G?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Did Delta G ever do any work for RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: I can recall one aspect where we did research, or a specific peace of research that we wanted to have done there for the manufacturing of a substance.  All that I can remember is that it was a fiasco.  We never got anything from them and the relationship ended.

MR CHASKALSON: You would have had responsibility for the control of finances at RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: Ultimately, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: And you would account to that other committee that we were talking about earlier in terms of higher up reporting to the SADF?

MR SWANEPOEL: Correct.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you a Director of any other SADF company, front companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not front companies, that I can recall as being front companies, but I was a Director of other companies.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) that you were a Director at RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: What were your functions at the other companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: As a Director on the board meetings in terms of financial and management inputs.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us what those companies were?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, Protechnic, for a short while I Director of Lifestyle Management.  I cannot recall anymore at this moment.

MR CHASKALSON: Can, aside from Delta G, were you aware of any other SADF companies that belonged to this scheme?

MR SWANEPOEL: I was not aware of any, no.

MR CHASKALSON: The two companies that you mentioned previously, are you saying that they are private companies, and not SADF front companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is what I suppose, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: Protechnic, it was Jan Lourens, at times there was a Bernard Zimmer who was in time replaced by Charles van Remoortrere and later on when further shares were sold from Medchem Consolidated, Dr Mijburgh was a director, and I left the company as a director.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) companies, they certainly involved the same people who in some or other form, or at one or other stage were involved in SADF front companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not necessarily so.  I did not know that Charles van Remoortrere or Bernard Zimmer were involved.

MR CHASKALSON: Dr Jan Lourens?

MR SWANEPOEL: He was a member at Seven Medical Battalion, but I did not know of any front companies.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you paid a salary for your directorships in the other companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: And can you tell us what your salary was?

MR SWANEPOEL: I think for the two or three years I was involved I earned R25 000.

MR CHASKALSON: R25 000 per year?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: For the entire period?

MR SWANEPOEL: For the whole period.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you remember what your salary was at RRL when you were the Managing Director?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Isn't it strange that you can remember the one salary, but not the other?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, because it was one.

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry, can you just clarify that for me?

MR SWANEPOEL: I can remember it because Dr Schalk van Rensburg made a lot of noise about that at a certain stage.  He drew attention to that because he saw that lying around, and he made a lot of noise about that.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: His facts regarding what?

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you have other business interests while you were working at RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you disclose those business interests with your directors?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: What was the nature of those business interests?

MR SWANEPOEL: I was a director and if I say business interests, it means I was a director, a director of Global Air Charter and Wisdom Travel.

MR CHASKALSON: Who were the members of those companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: They were Mrs Cecelia Grant and I can't remember - no, there were no other people involved.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(audible) there any links directly or indirectly to Dr Basson?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you receive remuneration for the work you did at those companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Would I be correct to say that your salary during this period is the amount you were paid at RRL and an amount of R25 000 in total for the other two companies?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

MR CHASKALSON: You have heard allegations about a lavish lifestyle, do you have any comment on that?

MR SWANEPOEL: I want to put it clearly that this comment is coming from grieved people and they were suspended from the company under very difficult circumstances.

MR CHASKALSON: So the lifestyle was not particularly lavish?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Have you ever gone overseas for RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: I did yes.

MR CHASKALSON: What were the occasions?

MR SWANEPOEL: I can't remember specifically, but I can't remember - not more that four times.  I visited various people and I positioned RRL for European markets on how we should structure ourselves and comply with the requirements of overseas markets, and I tried to recruit consultants.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: No, but I've already sent assistance before the time.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you find it easy to explain to foreign people about the capacities and the abilities of your company?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, I did not find trouble in doing that.

MR CHASKALSON: So you weren't going to look to see what you could possibly do in the future.

MR SWANEPOEL: That's right yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Then how would you be able to examine properly if you didn't know what your company was doing?

MR SWANEPOEL: Because I did not require inside into the details of contracts to present information to them.  I did not provide them with contracts, I tried to find consultants to help us manage various structures and to also come and address my specialist regarding the handling of contracts and standards for European market.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: Op die oomblik?

MR CHASKALSON: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: At the moment, two.

MR CHASKALSON: I believe in the past you had a very nice collection of Mercedes Benz cars, is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, they were not in my name.

MR CHASKALSON: Whose name were they in?

MR SWANEPOEL: It's in the name of a trust.

MR CHASKALSON: Who are the beneficiaries of the trust?

MR SWANEPOEL: My family.

MR CHASKALSON: Who obtained the assets to acquire those cars?