Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR BERGER: Okay.  Your committee, the youth committee, from whom did you take instructions?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: My instructions came from the constitution of the organisation as well as from Mr Themba Khoza who was the Chairperson, the Regional Chairperson of the Youth Brigade in the Transvaal.

MR BERGER: Are you familiar with the constitution of the IFP?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know.  I am familiar with it, although I cannot claim to know everything.

MR BERGER: I am not going to ask you everything, but at the time of the attack, June 1992, you were familiar with the terms and the provisions of the IFP constitution, is that right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: And would it be fair to say that your committee, the youth committee as well as the senior committee of the IFP in the hostel, both those committees were familiar with the terms and provisions of the IFP's constitution?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, they were familiar with those provisions.

MR BERGER: Who was the overall leader of kwaMadala hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Let me explain again that kwaMadala hostel was differentiated into us being Zulu's and also as IFP members.
	Prince Vanana Zulu was the most senior person in as far as the fact that he was the leader of the Zulu's, he was our leader as Zulu's.

MR BERGER: Would it be fair to say that any major decision involving the residents of kwaMadala hostel, would have to be taken in consultation with Prince Vanana Zulu?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It depended on the nature of those decisions.  If they did not concern him, decisions could be taken in his absence.

MR BERGER: Can you think of any major decision that could be taken without the blessing of Prince Vanana Zulu?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If the IFP held meetings, we would sometimes discuss and agree to go on rallies in the Prince's absence.  Such matters that effected Zulu's directly at the hostel, would not be discussed without the Prince's presence.

MR BERGER: You were asked the question at page 50, question 4, who was the leader of the senior men in the kwaMadala hostel and your answer at page 54, paragraph 4, Prince Vanana Zulu.  Do you confirm that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have explained before, Matwana Zulu was a leader of the Zulu's in the Vaal area.
	Even at the hostel, he was afforded the utmost respect.  Even on occasions when we went out on rallies, we would inform him of these because of the respect we held for him, not because he had to take the decision.

MR BERGER: And if Prince Vanana Zulu was informed about some course of conduct that the residents of kwaMadala hostel were going to embark upon, and if he said no, I don't want you to do that, would he be obeyed?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: In most instances, as I have just explained, that we afforded him respect, we would have respected that opinion.
	If there was a need not to, if there was circumstances compelling us not to, then we may have not respected his opinion.

MR BERGER: As far as the IFP were concerned in the hostel, would I be correct to say on your evidence, that the leader of the IFP in the hostel, would be Mr Khumalo?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I am concerned, yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: And in his absence, it would be Mr Ndwandwe?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As his assistant, yes, he would be the one.

MR BERGER: What was the position with regard to the residents of kwaMadala hostel and membership of the IFP?  Was it synonymous, was every resident of the kwaMadala hostel a member of the IFP, or were there residents who were not IFP members?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Briefly, at that time, we could not afford to reside with people who were not members of the IFP.
Every person who resided in the hostel at the time, was a member of the IFP.

MR BERGER: Every member who was a resident of the hostel, had to become a member of the IFP, is that what you are saying?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Where is Mr Khumalo today?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately he is deceased.

MR BERGER: Where was he on the 17th of June 1992, was he at the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not remember whether he was present or not on the 17th, because of the situation of my health.  I cannot remember whether he was there or not.

MR BERGER: I won't limit you to the 17th, in the week or two weeks before the 17th, say from the 10th to the 17th of June, was Mr Khumalo at the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He used to work at ISCOR, therefore I would assume that he was present.

MR BERGER: And the same can be said for Mr Richard Ndwandwe, would that be correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, he is also an employee of ISCOR.

MR BERGER: And you would assume that he was present at the hostel in the days before the attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I cannot be absolutely certain, because he used to work shifts but I think that he was.

MR BERGER: You think that he was present?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I will say that I do not know, but I did not see him.

MR BERGER: The meetings that you attended prior to the attack, if I understand you correctly, there was a meeting, there was a caucus some two or three weeks before the attack, where you say you were there, Mr Khumalo, Damara Qunchu and Mr Mkhize, the four of you were part of this caucus, and that was where you decided that there should be an attack on Boipatong.  Would that be correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what I said, but we did not take a concrete decision, although our opinion was that this attack should be carried out, but no concrete decision was taken.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Buthelezi, I want you please to be clear on this point, because it effects your application.  Are you saying that at that caucus the idea of an attack on Boipatong was discussed, but no decision was taken that Boipatong would be attacked at that meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When that caucus ended, there were no plans to set in motion an attack on Boipatong, at some time in the future?  Are you with me?
	I want you to be clear, I am not suggesting that at that caucus, an actual date was set to attack Boipatong, because as I understand your evidence, no date was set at that stage, correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Mr Berger, I will explain this again.  When we held this caucus meeting, we did not take a decision, but in my mind, it was clear what we should do.
	I would have planned it after the final decision had been taken, but the decision was not taken on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that at that caucus, all the persons who were there, expressed the opinion that there should be an attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, we agreed that they should be attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: But no decision was taken that there will be an attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, it was not taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR BERGER: Well Mr Buthelezi, I don't understand that answer at all.  You initially said before the Judge asked you the question, you said in my mind I thought that Boipatong should be attacked.  Now you are saying that you actually said at that meeting, I think that Boipatong should be attacked?
	Did you actually say at the meeting I think that Boipatong should be attacked, did you say that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I don't understand your question properly.  When I gave the explanation on the caucus meeting, I did say that my mind was made up that we should attack because our people were being burnt, killed daily.  That was the reason why we held that caucus meeting, to discuss the situation and what steps to take.
	Because of the anger that was inside me, I had decided, I had taken that decision that there should be an attack.

MR BERGER: All right, what did you say at that caucus?  Not what was in your head, what did you actually say at that caucus?