Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR BERGER: Yes.  My question is slightly different, perhaps I should rephrase it.
	Were you aware of an informal settlement on the Eastern side of Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explain, Mr Berger, I did not have any knowledge about the place, I only heard about the name Slovo Park during the court proceedings.

MR BERGER: Right, you said that you entered Boipatong in Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You were together with Mr Tjonjo and Mr Mabote, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Was it just the three of you or was there a whole group of you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: You asked me a question as to which people were close to me and I gave you the names of these two people.  There were many others but then I cannot recall their names.  It's been a long time since this thing happened and this thing did not happen as a result of the fact that perhaps the residents of the hostel knew each other.

MR BERGER: ...[inaudible] group of attackers moving into Boipatong along Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, if you move down Umsimvuvu Street you will come to a park in the centre of the township, do you recall that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I only get this from you, I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: Do you remember passing a church in Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I cannot recall that, it was dark and I could not see a church.

MR BERGER: Well I can tell you there's a light right there but let me explain to you what happens.  Umsimvuvu Street moves eastwards then there's a kink in the street and when it continues, that street becomes Bapedi Street, do you have any comment?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I cannot say a thing, I'm just listening to you here.

MR BERGER: Now, Bapedi Street, one could say is near Umsimvuvu Street as you tried to describe earlier this morning?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know about that, I don't know whether the street you're talking about is nearer to Umsimvuvu, I have no comment.

MR BERGER: I can also tell you that it was in Bapedi Street that many, many houses were attacked.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I'm listening.

MR BERGER: What I want to ask you is, you spoke about a man who ran out of a house, the second house you referred to and that you hit him with a knobkierrie, do you remember that man?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do recall the person.

MR BERGER: And you said that he went to hide behind a car, do you recall that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do recall that.

MR BERGER: What type of car was it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was dark, I cannot explain.

MR BRINK: I must protest this line of cross-examination, it seems to be taking us nowhere, with respect.  This is not a retrial, this is an Amnesty Hearing.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if Mr Brink will just give me a few more questions, he will see that I'm not attempting to retrial this matter at all, I'm just attempting to locate a particular incident.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, if the applicant, in all fairness to him doesn't know Boipatong, he doesn't know the streets, doesn't know the area, doesn't know Polo Park and so on, is there any point in continuing with this line of cross-examination?

MR BERGER: Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Mr Chairperson, the whole point with respect of cross-examination is not to put one's name proposition up first and then to get the witness then to deny it and then to back track, I'm trying to get to a point where I can put something to this witness and I just need the witness to clarify certain surrounding issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we understand that you have the right to cross-examine the witness but I think at some point we've got to get to the issues that are before us so that we do not prolong these hearing unnecessarily.  This witness, from what he says, is that he doesn't know Boipatong.  Perhaps it may save time if you just put your version of the description of the area to him so that we can get to the point.

MR BERGER: Very well, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We do not want to unduly restrict your cross-examination, we understand you have to lay the foundation but there has to be a limit at some point.

MR BERGER: Indeed, Chairperson.

MS PRETORIUS: Chairperson and I would like just to say that this question that was put to the applicant is not correct.  He said in the second house he - the man came out of the gate, he hit him with a knobkierrie and the man fled.  He didn't say he hid behind the car, it was the second, the man that he stabbed that hid behind the car if I'm not mistaken.

MR LAX: The man that he stabbed was hiding behind a car, the man that got hit with a knobkierrie simply ran away, that was the evidence as I recall it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, might I just say that all the people who we represent - one of the issues that really troubled them is that they would like to know who killed their loved ones and one of the issues before this Committee is the issue of full disclosure and it's going to be our contention, in fact I could make a submission already on the basis of the evidence that we've already heard that this witness is not being candid with this Committee.  But there's one particular incident which occurred which I want to put to this witness in a few questions time, will illustrate that he is not candid about the people that he killed or the people that he was a witness to being killed and that is, I would submit, goes to the issue of full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you're perfectly entitled to do that, all we are saying is that when you have to lay the foundation, you cannot or you should not lay foundation indefinitely, at some point you've got to get to the point.  If there is an incident you want to put to the witness, by all means do so.

MR BERGER: I'll do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what do you say about the fact that what you put to the witness is not accurate?

MR BERGER: Yes, I'm going to correct that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR BERGER: You say that you can't say what the colour of the car was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: You can't say what type of car it was either I assume.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: I'm going to refer you to an incident that took place at 625 Bapedi Street.  The second house from the church and very near Umsimvuvu Street - in that house and not in the street but in the yard there was a yellow Colt parked in that yard.  The owner of the house is a Mr Philip Umsevi.  He was hit with a knobkierrie and he went to hide under that car.  That was the first house that was attacked in Bapedi Street.  His son ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That is now 625?