Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, Anton Nieuwoudt told me that that was his agents, him, Nieuwoudt's agents, it wasn't Duli's agents, but Anton made it clear that he gave these weapons to the agents.  In other words, Duli asked us for the four AK's with the accessories which would mean that Duli gave it to Anton Nieuwoudt, Anton Nieuwoudt's agents had possession of these weapons.

MR MAPOMA: And those agents were they, you said they were actively involved in Umtata?  Were they actively involved perhaps in the Transkei Defence Force or where?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I don't know.  I cannot say if they were Defence Force members.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you have any re-examination?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just on one aspect.  Mr De Kock, later in the year there will be another cluster of incidents which will be investigated by the Committee and one of the subjects that you were asked to address there, was Vlakplaas as a Political Unit?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: With our assistance, additional submissions were made in this regard, it was about 90 typed pages which had been handed up, if you are aware of that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And there you deal amongst others with the position of Vlakplaas after it was dissolved and after the disbanding of the liberation movements?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you address Vlakplaas in its entirety there?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: I am not going to ask you here to address that aspect once again, but can I ask you to point out a few points there?  Already you have said that you wanted to dissolve Vlakplaas, but Gen Engelbrecht did not want to.  Was Vlakplaas involved in political work thereafter?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you still identify so-called terrorists and arrested them?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: After the unbanning of the ANC?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And Gen Nyanda, you will remember his evidence against you during your sentencing?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And that he was asked about Operation Vula?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And parts of his evidence, or his whole evidence which he gave, was placed before this Committee?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: In general it pointed out that the planning for amongst others, armed resistance, continued from the ANC's side after the unbanning of the ANC and if Operation Vula was not exposed, it would have continued much longer, do you recall that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I do Chairperson, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And thus Vlakplaas was still ready and still active in the area of combating the previous liberation movements, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you afterwards also focus yourselves on the combating of trade in weapons?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And amongst others you had success with the finding of weapons and weapons which you smuggled into the country?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you will recall Gen Nyanda's evidence that this was one of the manners in which the ANC smuggled weapons into the country?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you will also recall that after Operation Vula, and a while after the unbanning of the ANC, there were arrests made at the border between Swaziland and the Republic where two ANC members were caught with a large quantity of weapons.

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And to conclude with regard to these names, you say you cannot recall these names which you were asked to mention here, the names of the persons who were accommodated at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Unfortunately I cannot remember.

MR HATTINGH: But if it is possible to by means of investigation or inference, to find these names out, would you have a problem if we place these names on paper to the Committee?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, I won't have any problems.  I do not want it to lead to these people's deaths or injury to them.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt.  Mr Chairman, may I with your permission just ask a question or two which flows directly from the questions Mr Sibanyoni posed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr De Kock, the one aspect with regard to the instruction or the approval of your plan, I don't think from the context that Mr Ras sketches here, is that there is an allegation that there was an instruction from you, but I think the argument at the end of the day would be that there was approval from your side to do the investigative work and the observation work, to go ahead with that, what is your comment thereof?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes.

MR JANSEN: Will you agree with that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, it is important to do reconnaissance work.

MR JANSEN: And if one would look at it in general terms, if one refers to other incidents, is it a correct observation to make that many operations would start from junior operatives, they come and make a suggestion or proposal and they did the initial work, but the operation will not take place if there is no approval or authorisation from above?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson, the junior persons are at ground level, they do all the hard work, the detective work, and from their information that they gather, they put a picture to the seniors.

MR JANSEN: This would not be contradictory to the normal practice at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I will just ask members of the panel whether they have any questions to put to the applicant.  Mr Sandi, do you have any questions that you would like to ask to the applicant?

ADV SANDI: Yes, just to get some more information pertaining to the money aspect of the evidence.  Mr De Kock, who was present when this bag of money was given to you by Mr Nieuwoudt?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I was just myself and him, it was in my bedroom in the cabanas where I was busy packing my stuff, and somewhere I still have that white bag.  Somewhere in some of my possessions, I still have that bag, I will try and find it for you.

ADV SANDI: Did he tell you the reason why he was giving you this bag of money?

EUGENE DE KOCK: He just said that this is for you.  The implication was clearly that - and I do not want to create something here - but he said, I got the impression that it was for the weapons, he did say that he had looked after himself and his other people already.

ADV SANDI: Now, when you accepted this bag of money, what were you intending to do with it?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, I did not want to accept it initially, because there was nothing that I wanted to do with it.  There was nothing that I wanted to buy with this money as I stated previously, and it remained in my vehicle for about two or three weeks.  It was not a factor because I never took this into account.  It was not something that I wanted specifically and so I never had any plans with it, it just came to me.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone like for example Mr Engelbrecht, who I understand was one of your superiors, did you tell him that Mr Nieuwoudt has given me this bag of money, what should I do with it?  Did you confide to anyone about the money?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.