Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: Don't you know the person that died at the shoot out at the police station?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I don't even know one.

MR LAX: Mr Mgidlana, just repeat that surname you mentioned now?

MR MGIDLANA: It's Talakumeni, T-A-L-A-K-U-M-E-N-I.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What is his name, Sir?

MR MGIDLANA: Solly, that's all we know.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The Solly that I know is Present not Talakumeni.  He was shot, he was one of the ANC guerillas.

MR MGIDLANA: That's one and the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: What name did you know him by?  Solly?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Solly Azola Present.

MR MGIDLANA: What happened to his body, do you know?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I saw his body when we were digging it out at the bush at Ngato.  It is said that he was buried by the other guerillas that were with him.

MR MGIDLANA: After he was exhumed from Ngato, what happened to his body, do you know?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was put in a van than was driven by Warrant Officer Nyaka.  I was a passenger and then we took him to the mortuary in Umtata General.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know what ultimately happened to his body?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I don't know.

MR MGIDLANA: You however took part in his digging, did you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was not an investigator there but I was just an ordinary police that was there.

MR MGIDLANA: That has got nothing to do with being an investigator or an ordinary policeman, did you take part in the digging of his body from Ngato Forest?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I was there when he was being dug up.

MR MGIDLANA: Just a minute?  Thank you Chairperson, I think that is all so far.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mgidlana.  Mr Stofile do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

MR STOFILE: Yes Chairperson.
	Mr Siqhola, in your affidavit you have given a background that you grew up in a rural ...(indistinct).  I take it you grew up in a stable Christian family which was learned.  Correct me if I'm wrong?  I assume?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: My father is not educated, both my father and my mother.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had a normal childhood, that's I think what Mr Stofile is asking you.  You were born and raised within a stable family or did you have a bothersome or troublesome childhood?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct, I had both parents in a stable family.

MR STOFILE: Is it correct that during the time you grew up early childhood, you know when you at high school or JC standard, there were all the political parties in Transkei.  Transkei was the first to have political parties with constituencies, Transkei, the then Transkei Government under the regime of Matanzima?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: You are the one saying that, Sir.

MR STOFILE: I am asking you that were you not aware of that during the time you were growing up that there were political parties while you were at school at the JC level, high school?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes DP was there.

MR STOFILE: Which other party?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: And an organisation called DP under Mr Dick ...(indistinct).

MR STOFILE: Chief Majege was representing Gumbu and other MPs?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I grew up in a village so I'm not - I don't know much about the organisations, I knew, I became aware when I was a police.

MR STOFILE: The MKs of Gumbu all stayed in rural areas.  I put it to you that they all stayed in rural areas and conducted rallies from time to time, canvassed votes.  I don't want to belabour this point, if you can take us quickly to that point?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: You don't have a picture of that place where I grew up.  There were no political activities there, we would go at the cattle, we know nothing about politics.

MR STOFILE: What I mean, the rallies were regionally based for areas, you know, constituencies, not necessarily in your own personal area.  You can't dispute that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wont know anything about what you are asking me, politics.  I grew up in a different way as than a person from the cities.  I only met with politics at my work place.

MR STOFILE: Let's go further with that, you'll agree with me in terms of what you describe your area it is the hardest hit area in terms of your home, economically speaking as you are saying to me.  I'll take it that, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, is the follow up to your answer?

MR LAX: Sorry, I'm not clear what the question is Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: He says I've got no picture of his area which means it was worse off and that's the implication I get.

MR LAX: No, no, it's not the implication.

MR STOFILE: Oh.

MR LAX: He's saying you don't understand his area.  If you do understand his area then ...(intervention)

MR STOFILE: Let's put the question to you.  Can you explain what you meant by that?  You say I don't understand your area?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We grew up among illiterate people, fighting or playing with sticks, boys who were heading cattle, hunters, we knew nothing about politics.  We didn't even know that there was something called politics.

MR STOFILE: To the exact word you said ...(indistinct), you were aware of that, it means you were aware?  You didn't actually put it in your head, is that the case?  You were aware of the politics of the time because according to what you said ...(intervention)

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We knew nothing about politics.  I knew nothing about politics.

MR STOFILE: Mr Siqhola, I put it to you that with the level of your intellect as you are answering questions, I'm listening to you now, you can't claim that you are a dumb head you're not aware of what was taking place around Ncumbu.  There were radios, there were so many newspapers going around and you know, the system of the democracy in that context was permissable to that extent in the area.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Even in town we'd use a sledge herd by cattle to go to town we wouldn't buy newspapers.  We would have cows on a sledge and go next to a prickly pear plantation and put your sledge there and the farmer would go in and buy a bag of mealies and put it on the sledge and we would buy brown bread and leave.  I'm not joking, we never came across newspapers and I'm not lying.

MR STOFILE: Yet you managed to get educated up until Standard 10 despite those hitches?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR STOFILE: That's good and ...(intervention)

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: When I was doing Standard 10 it was the first time I heard about the concept Black power but I knew nothing about that, we didn't see anyone from the Black power, we used to hear that there was a Black power but no one came forward with an explanation of what Black power was.

MR STOFILE: So you were now aware during your school days?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not know anything about Black power but I used to hear about Black power but we did not see any individual who belonged to that Black power, we didn't even know what Black power looked like.

MR STOFILE: Anyway, let me pass.  I'm putting to you that with the level of education with the prevalent political system at the time with the way in which you have been answering questions it shows that you were not a dumb head by nature, you were a clever person, very perceptive, very aware of what was going around you and it is not correct that you were not politically ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Chairperson, the question is too long, the witness ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've made your point, it's basically for argument and the witness has made it very clear that he was politically ignorant while he was a school going person.  You can argue to the contrary Mr Stofile.