Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

MR VISSER: The suggestion appears, from page 142 and other passages in the record, seems to suggest that within some time after the telephone conversation which we are speaking about now, the whole of this security force of the South African Police all over the country commenced with a whole new order of approach, a whole new Police policy, a whole new Police policy in which as it were no prisoners were taken and people were free to eliminate, the Security Branch were free to eliminate people.  And the reason being, as we understand it, was that there was a problem because you could arrest a person who you knew to be an activist or a terrorist and within due time you would have to release him because there would be no evidence to prosecute him in court.
	Now against that background it is suggested, was suggested to General van der Merwe, that actually this general instruction which you gave to Brigadier Cronje in March 1986 must have come from a higher authority, either the State Security Council or the government itself because, according to Brigadier Cronje, and according to his insight, that policy was implemented all over the country.  Can you please just give us your reaction to that?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Chair the policy in the Security Branch I could not comment on since I was not attached to the Security Branch.

MR VISSER: Were you in a position to give such an order which would have national implication as far as a radical change of policy in police work of the Security Branch was concerned?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair I was not in a position and I did not have the authority to give such an instruction.

MR VISSER: Now of course we know, and it's a question of history, that the first general state of emergency was declared on the 12th of June 1986.  We also now know that your conversation with Brigadier Cronje took place in March of the same year, which was approximately three months prior to a general state of emergency being declared.
	My question to you is this General, did Brigadier Cronje at any time after the telephone conversation which you have testified to now, at any time come back to you to ask for further instructions from you or to report to you about what had been done in regard to that telephone conversation?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Not at any point Chair, or not at any time.

MR VISSER: What, as far as you were concerned, General was the position as far as the riot situation in the country was concerned after the declaration of the state of emergency?  How did that change matters, if at all?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: It provided the Police with greater powers with regard to the detention of persons.  I do not have the statistics available to me now to see what changes this affected ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: If I may interrupt you General what we are really getting at is this.  We know prior to, you've told us so, that prior to the state of emergency, we know the fact was that the Police may have known very well who certain culprits were but they found themselves in a position where they could do nothing about it because of intimidation and because such persons, although arrested, would have to be released.  And from that point of view your suggestion was chase him, don't let him rest, don't give him an opportunity to commit more or other acts of violence, keep the pressure on.
	And secondly, if you know and you are certain of who attacked the residences of policemen with petrol bombs, do the same to them, in order to fill in the gap because of the problem which you've had with having to release arrested persons for not being able to successfully prosecute them in court.   
	My question to you is this, was there any change in that situation as a result of the declaration of the state of emergency on the 12th of June 1986?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: As I've already mentioned Chair the state of emergency and the emergency regulations provided the Police with greater powers to be able to remove such persons from society.

MR VISSER: Are you thereby saying, and I don't want to lead you, are you thereby saying that the emergency regulations filled the gap which you intended to suggest by the methods you suggested to Brigadier Cronje earlier?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: To a large extent yes Chair, although of course matters did not end there, or things did not become quiet then.

MR VISSER: General, it is Thabedi Mr Chairman, the reference I was looking for a little earlier is at page 242 of your record.  At page 242, as we read the evidence, and we may be wrong and if we are we will stand corrected, Van Vuuren gave evidence and in the middle of the page he is questioned by Mr du Plessis and at line 17, perhaps it's a good place to start Mr Chairman, just to refresh your memory he says this, he says;
"Captain Hechter informed me that myself, him and Mamasela, as well as Colonel Flip Loots had to eliminate Jerry Thabedi as he had been identified as an ANC activist".
And then further down the page, at line 28 the question is put,
"Who exactly made the decision to eliminate Thabedi?"
And the answer to that from Van Vuuren is,
"I would believe that this was a general decision by General Viktor....."
or as it's stated here "Victor".
"....which he communicated to Captain Hechter".
Now General, do you know anything about this?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I bear no knowledge and would not have borne any knowledge of a Thabedi, nor did I see Hechter after the very first meeting in my office, so there would not have been such an instruction to him.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, for your information may I refer to pages 97 and 603-605.  General, in the evidence before this Committee reference was made to an incident at Nietverdiend.  We are not going to go into the details of that incident but if I remember correctly what it entailed was injecting certain occupants of a combi motor vehicle and thereafter driving the combi into a ditch and blowing it up with the resulting death of some number of persons.
	At page 97 of the record, at line 20 thereabouts Mr Chairman, that paragraph deals with the Nietverdiend incident, it was suggested to General van der Merwe that there would be evidence to the effect that you, General, telephoned Brigadier Cronje and congratulated him with his success of that particular operation.
	And if I then may refer you to the other references, pages 603 and following Mr Chairman.  It deals with the incident again from page 603 and at page 605, well perhaps at the bottom of 603 line 30 I may read to refresh your memory.
"The Botswana Police investigated this car wreck and the remains of the persons in it.  There were some newspaper reports after which General Viktor phoned me to ask me whether it had been our staff who were hurt.  I told him that was the case".
Well that's not strictly correct because Mr Chairman if we recall correctly I think it was a member of the South African Defence Force that was hurt, but be that as it may.
"I told him that was the case.  He congratulated me with that operation".
	Now General you've been listening to what I've been reading to refresh the memory of the Committee members, what do you say about that evidence?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Chair in the first place with regard to what exactly occurred there as it is now placed in the record, during last year September/October I heard for the first time what the actual facts were with regard to the incident.

MR VISSER: Did you telephone Brigadier Cronje in relation to this incident at all?