Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

MR PANDAY: Well as you say Mr Chairman, we've just got his version, obviously he maintains that this is what happened.  I'm merely putting a possibility to him for him to have been convicted the person that gave evidence could not have been there to have given such an explicit account for him to get convicted.

MR SIBANYONI: The crux of my question is, he may have been convicted out his own mouth, out of his own version.

MR PANDAY: I concede that point, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There may have been others.  Unless we have sight of the judgment I don't think it's a fair question.  There are cases where the Judge has said exactly what he thinks of a witness and an accused person would be left in no doubt, whether he was a lay person or not, that that person had been believed or otherwise.  But we don't know in this case, it may have been a question of fingerprints, bloodstains, all sorts of technical stuff.

MR PANDAY: I'll withdraw the question, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, nothing further, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: One last point I would like your assistance on.  You've told us, Mr Ngubane, that you were an ANC supporter for many years, is that correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell me who was your senior, your leader in the ANC, in your district?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: At that time the Chairperson of the youth was Lindane Mtiane and it was Mr Nxayi who chaired the ANC in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Right that concludes the applicant's case, is that right?

MR DEHAL: Indeed ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry, Chairperson, there's just one question that flows from the bench that I would like to ask.
	Mr Ngubane, you have said that you started supporting the ANC in 1977, do you remember that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you said that was at the time when it was still the UDF, do you recall that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I did.

MR MAPOMA: Are you sure?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I may not be certain, but I know that I never supported any other organisation except for the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: Are you sure that it was 1977 when you first supported the ANC which was then the UDF at that time?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I think it was around there because I was at school, at Power School and a branch of the IFP was being launched then and Mangasutho Buthelezi even arrived for the launching of that branch.  I think it was during that year.

MR MAPOMA: I am asking this question because the UDF was launched only in 1983, far later.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I may be confused about the dates, but I have never supported any other organisation except for the one of which I'm a member now.

MR MAPOMA: Now in Court, when you were in Court for trial in this incident, is there any particular reason why you chose Linda Zama to be your legal representative?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, the reason was that we knew that there were lawyers who mostly represented ANC people and others who represented IFP people.  The reason why I chose her was because I could not have approached an IFP lawyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know she represented ANC?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I did have that knowledge.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we try again.  Does that conclude the applicant's case?

MR DEHAL: Indeed it does.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now what is the position?

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I've spoken to the brother of the victim, Mr Frederick Mbukazi who is seated in the gallery, he informs me that he can make the necessary attempts to locate the girlfriend, Alzina Luthuli and in all earnest try and have her at the Commission tomorrow morning.  In the light of the inconvenience, the problem that we have been faced with, with getting her here and part - as Mr Chairman has agreed, could be on the fault of the Commission, we ask that the matter be rolled over or alternatively adjourned for tomorrow to continue.
	Mr Chairman, I do intend calling the brother, Mr Mbukazi, if there's no objection from the applicant's side.  I must motivate that I cannot see there being any problems as his evidence is going to be straightforward and if need be, the applicant may seek an adjournment thereafter to take further instructions on his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to call him now?

MR PANDAY: Well if Mr Chairman prefers calling him tomorrow, I don't have a problem with that and we can continue the matter tomorrow.  Whichever is at the convenience of the Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the fact is it's now twenty five to three, there's quite a lot of this afternoon left, tomorrow we will have, I hope, the other matter that we should have heard today, to proceed with as well as to conclude this matter.  So I think it would be more convenient if we could lead his evidence now, subject of course if you obtain any further information from the other witness that you think you ought to put to him, you can recall him for that purpose.

MR PANDAY: I see.

MR DEHAL: Insofar as any anticipated objection from me is concerned, I have never wanted to object to this, I see it only in the interest of fairness.  My only reservation is that I have not known he was going to be called as a witness, I have no copy of his statement, he's not referred to in the bundles, but that doesn't take the matter any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  I take it that the applicant's case is now concluded, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the victims would call the eldest brother of the victim, that's Frederick Mbukazi.

MR SIBANYONI: Please rise, Mr Mbukazi.  Please give us your full names.  Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated.

MR PANDAY: May I proceed, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbukazi, could you please give us your full and correct name, as it appears in your Zulu ...

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I am Frederick Mfanazotini Mbukazi.

MR PANDAY: And are you known by any other name?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Which is?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I'm Kopo.

MR PANDAY: Now would you tell the Commission what is your relationship with the deceased, that is Mfanafuti Mbukazi.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: He was my younger brother.

MR PANDAY: And who did he live with?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: We all lived together.

MR PANDAY: And in what area did you live?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: At the Hlanzeni district in Umkababa.

MR PANDAY: Now the district that you resided in, was that a politically active district?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: As far as I know at that time politics was a subject that had just started.

MR PANDAY: Now the area that you resided in, what political party was dominant in that area?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: It was the IFP.

MR PANDAY: Now were you in any way part or active as an IFP?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: The entire family was not active in politics.

MR PANDAY: Now your brother that was deceased, Mfanafuti Mbukazi, do you know if he was in any way active?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: What I know about my brother is that he was a young person who was still attending school, he was not involved in politics, he used to play soccer only.

MR PANDAY: You say he was attending school, which school was he attending?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: At Mganiwaki.

MR PANDAY: And how old was he at the time?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: He was 21 years old.

MR PANDAY: You've heard the evidence of the applicant, Mr Ngubane, and he states that your brother was an IFP activist, would you agree with that statement?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I would dispute that.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mbukazi, the people that resided in your area, were all of them politically active?