Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MR SAMUELS: I call Jabu Jacob Nyethe to the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one that wants to use Xhosa?

MR SAMUELS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's deal with him now that a Xhosa interpreter is here.

MR SAMUELS: Okay.   I call Embrose May to the stand please.

MS PATEL: It's bundle 3, page 157.

MR SAMUELS: His application is number 7208/97, volume 3 page 157.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr May you told me yesterday that you prefer to use Xhosa, have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: (sworn states)

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, may I at this stage make an application to amend the applicant's answer to one of the questions?  He has eluded to the evidence that he wishes to give further on in his application.  However, at paragraph 9 (a) the dates given are 1991 to December 1993, 9(a)ii.  The applicant however wishes to give evidence about an incident which he refers to in 9(b) which in fact occurred in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) amend the period to 1994?

MR SAMUELS: More specifically to April 1994.  Thank you Mr Chair.	Mr May, do you belong to a political party?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: Which political party do you belong to?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: The ANC.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for amnesty for the offences of attempted murder, possession of an AK47 and ammunition, is that correct?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: That is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Briefly, will you explain to the Committee the incidents or the incident that you are referring to?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes I can do that.   I will start with an incident when I was arrested with an AK47.  I was arrested in number 2226 in Makukule in Emalaheni Section.  The soldiers came at night when I was sleeping, after 10 at night.  When they got there they didn't know the person they were looking for personally.  They were told where I was staying and when they arrived they kicked the door.  When kicking the door I saw them while they were inside the house.

MR SAMUELS: When was that, that you were found with the AK47?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: It was in April, the first week of April, two weeks before the 1994 elections.

MR SAMUELS: Now with regard to the attempted murder, would you explain that incident?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes I can explain this way.  Because I was a commander of the SDU's in Emalahleni Section, we had to come from Emalahleni.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot at somebody?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Where I was staying in number 2226.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: It was in the middle of April, the week that I've already described.

CHAIRPERSON: 1994?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who you shot at?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I don't know the person's name.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot at him?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: The reason is because this person was harassing me because of the work that I was doing and he promised to report this to the soldiers and to the police so my life was in danger because the police and the soldiers were looking for me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you shot him because you wanted to avoid detection by the police?  Is that the reason you shot him?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: That is not the reason that way, but the way we used to work, a person who informed the police at that time was an informer or he betrayed the people because I was working for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: So is that the reason you shot him because he was an informer?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I can say yes that is the reason even though that was not my aim because I warned him at first, I told him to stop what he was doing and I called the people who were with him to talk to him and they couldn't get through him and then
I took that decision.

MR SAMUELS: Mr May, was the person injured?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I shot him in the arm.

MR SAMUELS: After you had shot him what did you do, Mr May?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I went to a place where I could be safe when the police were looking for me or the soldiers.

MR SAMUELS: And the AK47 that you used to shoot the person, what happened to that weapon?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: The soldiers took the AK47, they took it with them.

MR SAMUELS: Is that when they came to arrest you?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chair just briefly if I may?  I just want to know if the person who was shot had any political affiliation known to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the matter that he testifies about?  Is that a matter in which one of your clients had an interest in?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not specifically, apart from the political interest of the IFP may have, depending on the answer or not, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr May, do you know whether the person you shot was a member of any political party?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I don't know.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, if I may just briefly?
	Can you tell us where you got the weapon from and whether you had a licence for it?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I didn't have a licence for this weapon but because of the situation I had to have this weapon.  I took this weapon from the community, I got it from the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Be specific, I mean the community is a lot of people.

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: We used to get weapons from the community because the community was being attacked.  So because the community was attacked the community tried to get money so that weapons can be bought but at that time ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We just want to know a name of the person or persons or committee that issued the firearm to you, that's all.

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: The committee of the section tried to get some funds so that we can get those weapons.  It was difficult to know where they bought these weapons from or who they bought them from.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you pick this weapon up in the streets of Thokoza?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: As I've already said, I'm staying in Emalahlene section.   There was a committee at that time that was responsible for that particular section.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not going to tell us who actually gave you the weapon?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I don't remember their names but Mr Mtembu was one of the committee members.

MS PATEL: This person whom you killed, you say you don't know his name.  Can you tell us exactly what you knew about him?  I would like you to be as specific as possible please.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, was this person in fact killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Shot.

ADV DE JAGER: He was shot in the arm, did he die?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: He was not killed, he was shot in the arm.  I was not staying in that section for a long time and I don't know much about the people in that area but what I know is that he knew about me and he told the police publicly about what I did and that was very dangerous.

MS PATEL: How do you know that he was the person who told the police whatever information about you?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: When the soldiers came they said they are looking for Embrose May.  They were looking for an AK47, an AK47 that was used in that shooting incident that made me realise that he was the person who went to the soldiers and told the soldiers about me.

CHAIRPERSON: Aikona, you shot this man before you were arrested and that is the issue.  How did you know that this man was an informer that had required to be shot at?