Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: All I'm saying is this, I did not hear the siren because it was sounded as usual, I would hear it, even the meeting itself was not planned, don't forget that, two things took place at the same time, everything was not planned according to the rules.  According to the rules siren would be sounded after the people had been given permission to convene a meeting, that meeting was not planned the residents of Kwamadala did not plan the meeting but the siren itself is something that is sounded whenever necessary, please understand me on that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the fact of the matter this, you do not dispute from what you're saying now that the siren could have gone off without you hearing it?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is true Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Did you say this is true today?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: How is it possible that every other resident of the hostel heard the siren except for you?

CHAIRPERSON: Well is that the evidence Mr Berger that everyone else in the hostel heard the siren excepting for this witness?

MR BERGER: The evidence is that every resident of the hostel was called to the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is one thing to call the residents to the hostel, it is one thing for them to hear the siren.

MR BERGER: I'll rephrase the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what's been put to you is this, your co-applicants who have given evidence so far, all of them, tell us they heard the...[indistinct] and as a result of that they went down to the stadium.  Now why is it that you are - you didn't hear?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: This is the situation Chairperson, today they are telling the truth, some things that they know very well to me because all the things that they were doing they were doing it on their own, I was in the dark, I did not get information.  If I was told that or even if this whole thing was planned I would have that knowledge.  Even now I'm still telling the truth, this is the only truth that I'm telling today.

MR BERGER: Were there people living near to you amongst the accused of the criminal trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this, you said at the criminal trial that if there had been an attack on Boipatong you would have known about it?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Are you now saying that that evidence is not correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I'm still saying that.

MR BERGER: But there was an attack on Boipatong and you claim to have no knowledge of it?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The evidence that there was an attack at Boipatong, I heard that on the 18th in the morning that 37 died.  I agree with that but no one told me at that time.  As I was not present it's difficult for me, Mr Berger, to know things that took place during my absence.  That is why I'm still telling the truth that I was not at Boipatong.  Perhaps I wouldn't disagree if I was told as a resident but I was regarded as a person who was safeguarding the firm and if the people were trying to do something maybe they would regard me as a person who would disturb that process.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the question Mr Mthembu, I'll gather that what's been put to you is what you said in the trial and that is if there had been an attack at Boipatong you would have known about that, do you understand the question?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel wants to find out from you is that evidence true?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: We all know and we've already heard that there was an attack at Boipatong.  We heard your evidence that you were not present during the attack.  What is being put to you is this, as you are giving evidence in court, you told the court that if there was an attack at Boipatong you would have known about it.  Do you get the question?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your response?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: My response is this, I was not told, I was left behind.  As today the residents of Kwamadala Hostel had come back, they did not reveal that information to me and that shows that whatever they intended to had broken their hearts and now they know that they're not innocent.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, just listen to the question.  You've repeatedly told us that they kept you in the dark about the attack on Boipatong is that right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why prior to going to Boipatong to attack they didn't tell you.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You only became aware for the first time on the 18th the day after the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The fact of the matter is that there was an attack in Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I know now.

CHAIRPERSON: Which took place under your nose?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And which you were not aware of prior to it's taking place?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want pursue further with the matter I think the record speaks for itself.  I don't know whether you want to pursue this point?

MR BERGER: No I won't.  I won't Chairperson.
	Not only as I understand your evidence, not only were you not aware before the attack that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong but you say that before the attack you had no idea whatsoever, no knowledge whatsoever that there was even going to be an attack on anyone in any community of the Vaal, am I right?  You had no idea?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to ask you about some of the answers that you gave in the further particulars.  If I understand your evidence correctly the way I read it, as far as the political structures of the IFP and the hostel were concerned, the chief politician in the hostel was Prince Vanana Zulu, am I correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Everyone in the hostel who was a member of the IFP was politically answerable to Prince Vanana Zulu, the supreme political head in the hostel.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And he in turn was answerable only to leaders of the IFP beyond the hostel, am I correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: So if Mtwana Zulu gave an order, a political order, such as there should be no attack on Boipatong, that order was binding on all IFP members in the hostel and - sorry?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Correct.

MR BERGER: And no one else in the hostel had authority to disobey that order, is that correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct but he knew that we were not at IFP region, we were at the premises of Iscor.

MR BERGER: Yes, but there were very specific IFP structures within the hostel and all IFP members were answerable to those IFP structures, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And if the supreme leader of the IFP in the hostel Mtwana Zulu says there shall be no attack on Boipatong until I come back from leave then no one had the authority to go over his head and launch an attack, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now on the day after the attack who told you there had been attack on Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: One of the women that I don't her name, she phoned me in the morning of the 18th because I had to call early at work because I was woken up during the night and I was told about the 37 people who were killed at Boipatong.  There was a large number of people who came to attack the Kwamadala Hostel.  She refused to tell me her name.

MR BERGER: Was this early in the morning?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: When did you discover that the residents of Kwamadala had been the attackers?