Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much Dr Ahmed Moosa.  Could we please just hear from you before we close your presentation, what you are currently doing and what's your current status at the moment?

DR A MOOSA: I am a family physician.  I am in private practice and in a partnership where I have been for the past almost 30 years.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much.  Thank you very much for your submission.  I do not have any questions.  I will hand over to the Chair in case any of my colleagues would like to ask some questions.

WENDY ORR: I think I am the Chair by default as the Archbishop has had to leave us.  Are there any further questions?  Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: Just one quick question from me maybe to the two of you, do you think there's a link between what you have just described and the complete inability on the part of our health workers to empathise with people who were murdered, shot at, teargassed by the police?  By saying a link being the fact that people were products of a system which was discriminatory and racist so to say.

DR A MOOSA: Yes I have very little doubt that the system of apartheid was so pernicious that it affected everybody to a greater or lesser extent, so much so that either through, as I have said before, either through paralysis or either because they were so much part of the system and afraid to make any submission or rather any action or to commit any action which was different from that of what they were expected to do, that a lot of them found that they were more-or-less frozen in what they did and continued doing the sort of things that they felt most comfortable with.
 It took exceptional people, and as we have heard earlier from the young doctor, Dr Bletcher, it took exceptional people to recognise that what was happening to a certain section, to the majority of people in this country, was not only a Black problem it was a political problem.

SOLLY RATEMANE: I just also want to add that various periods of history teach us different things.  For instance our acute awareness about the post-traumatic stress disorder in this country is only very recent.  And as the Commission started its work and we heard the cries of people, their reactions to various things, I think more and more of us, that is people in the Black, not in the Black but in the health sector generally, were more educated about the effects of those atrocities.  But it raises the question of whether we are prepared as a country to help to deal with the after effects, long term effects, of those atrocities.  I think this is where institutions of training, such as universities and so on, should collaborate with NGOs in developing structures, that can provide help to those who suffered in those days, and then maybe in that process we can engender that sense of empathy.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I'm thinking about how to phrase this question, but let me come out and get the benefit of your thinking about what seems like a grand scheme which was pervasive throughout South African society and the attempt to, perhaps not annihilate Black people, in particular Africans, as we can see systematic killing of Black people; refusal of any kinds of opportunity for Black people, in particular African people, as if it's a grand scheme to keep African people in a certain position, so-to-speak, as servants throughout the whole society, what is your thinking about this?  And I am just asking you to reflect about what just seems like generalised annihilation of Black people in our society with specific targeting on African people.

SOLLY RATEMANE: I personally think that that statement is appropriate and it was the given within apartheid rule, that was the intention.  However, human beings of all kinds are very resilient and one can never annihilate them completely.   I think it was also important that one recognised, through various interactions with Black and White colleagues, Black and White friends, that not all people  within the so-called White group were party to that active attempt to annihilate the ego, the persona of the African people, that there are people who realised that co-existence was possible and to live well together we need to understand each other, we need to begin to understand each other's backgrounds and so on.  And I think these are some of the good people that one referred to earlier on who felt there should be some operations to try and protect our being collectively as a nation, not just as a White or Black group.
 But I think one sees a very quick process towards achieving that goal post-independence where suddenly many people are able to say what they can say openly.  Their minds are free. Though people cannot all achieve much materially but they are free to express their views and they have limitless opportunities where possible they can reach out and intensify themselves, or empower themselves in different ways.  
 I think that grand scheme has failed and I don't think we will ever have that kind of scheme again in this country and we shouldn't allow it to happen.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson may I ask that perhaps, as an extension of this hearing, that you give us the benefit of your thinking in writing about the reform of institutions that we may redress, but more importantly to ensure that this never, ever happens again.  If you could give us the benefit of your thinking, in writing, and send it to Ms Hlengiwe Mkhize, the Chairperson of the Committee on Reparation and Rehabilitation, we would very much appreciate that.

WENDY ORR: One last question from Ms Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Dr Orr.  Dr Ramashala I think, benefit of thinking right but I think in the final analysis benefit of action is necessary because I think that the consequences of the colonisation of everyday life by apartheid still exists today.  The majority of people who are not White in this country are still living in squalor of poverty and lack of quality in their lives.
 But what I really wanted to say is that you both, Ahmed and Solly, have reminded us of the burden of being Black in White institutions during a time when affirmative action for Whites was practised in this country.  And Solly you mentioned in your presentation that you thought that in White institutions there should be a focus on Black students and what their needs are and how they are coping, etc.  But first I think that focus should be balanced with a focus on White students who have also gone through the socialisation system in this country, to also address the problems that they face in being thrown in situations where they suddenly have to face the reality of non-racialism, of integration in their institution.  I think that there should be a balance and institutions should focus more on creating this balance rather than focusing on Blacks as a focus, as a study so-to-speak.  I think it has happened on both sides.  
 You are right, we have to celebrate those individuals in these institutions who have stuck their necks out in the bad old days to support Black students, to fight for human rights for all, and they stand out as examples for us and perhaps we could tap the experiences that we've had, this country has seen of people, White people who have stuck their necks out in times which were hard and where it was difficult to stand out and speak out.  Thank you Madam Chair.