Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR LAX: So with regard to every other bit of information collected and with regard to any other recruitments, you were kept fully informed?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I have said Chairperson, if there were other incidents that I did not know, maybe those are the incidents they did not tell me about.  I only know about these incidents that we are talking about here.

MR LAX: Are these the only incidents where you think you've done something unlawful and that's why you're applying for amnesty for them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But clearly, you recruited other informers in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And clearly, your colleagues also recruited other informers in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And all the information that was gleaned from those sources, except in these four incidents, was shared and discussed at your daily meetings, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, that is so.

MR LAX: And reports were written and sent on to other offices as the case required, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Then it strikes me as very strange then that you were not informed about these matters.  And in fact, it's only three of these matters that you were not informed about, the fourth one you were informed about.  You've no explanation for why that is so?  No suspicion, no idea why that should be so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, at that stage I did not have any suspicion, because I've explained that the rule was that you only ask what is meant for you, but you do not ask what was not meant for you.  If the issue is not meant for you, you don't have to ask any questions.

MR LAX: Well you see you were a team, you were working together as a team, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that's why it's strange that one member of the team is just left out and not kept informed of anything.  What if you'd gone into Lesotho on one of your intelligence gathering missions and you messed up their plans, and you interfered in the work they were doing?  Surely it was crucial that you should be kept informed, so you didn't do that.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If that would happen, Chairperson, I think there would be steps that would be taken against me.

MR LAX: Well how could any steps be taken against you Sir, if you weren't kept informed?  You wouldn't be guilty of anything, you committed no wrong, how were you to know if they didn't tell you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I say I think that they would take steps.  I'm not saying that will happen, I am saying I think they will take steps against me.

MR LAX: Well that's just totally illogical that you should think such a thing when you committed no wrong whatsoever.  Now looking back from today at what happened, can you think of any reason why they did not inform you of those things, in those three incidents?  They didn't give you any background or let you know what was going on.  I'm not asking what you might have thought then, I'm just saying looking back now as an experienced person.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't have an answer because I'm still thinking about that.  I don't know why this happened in my absence.  Even today I don't have an answer why that happened.

MR LAX: Now with regard to Mr Ngono you say you were at this meeting, what information was discussed at the meeting?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was told in this meeting that there is an information that KK Ngono was present in Lesotho at a place called Roma and he was a member of the MK and he was trained MK soldier and our office was interested in his services as an informer.  So we were instructed that we should go there and try to recruit him, so that our office could use him against his own organisation.  And we were told that if we were unable to do that we should abduct him and come back with him to Ladybrand.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the first part of your answer, I didn't hear that properly.  Something interfered with my headphones here, it just went crackly, unfortunately for me.  Just repeat your answer please.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said Chairperson, during this meeting we were told that there is an information about KK Ngono, that he was present at Roma in Lesotho and our office was interested in him so that we could use him as our informer, because he was a member of the MK and our office would use him against his own organisation.  So we were given the instructions to go there and recruit KK, so that we could come and use him as our informer, but if we were unable to recruit him, we should abduct him and come back with him to Ladybrand.

CHAIRPERSON: Just because you had instructions as you told us, that you should recruit him and instead you did not do so, you fetched him, did you have any discretion when you were given orders?  I'm sorry about that, Mr Lax.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we were just told that we should recruit him, but on our way myself and Mr Jantjie, we discussed about this, we discussed about his training as a soldier, so we did not want to take a chance and approach him easily, so we used our discretion, so that we do not find ourselves in danger.  That is why we used the services of, or the assistance of the Lesotho police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my question is that, could you change orders to suit what you wanted, when you were told?  Because here Mr Robertshaw said: "Recruit this man, if it fails, fetch him."  So there's no failure of the recruitment, but instead you altered those orders and fetched him instead.  Hence I say, did you have a discretion to change orders?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, we had a discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: And this would alter what you said earlier, that you had to do as you are told.  Remember when you testified in direct examination?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I remember, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So between the two, which should I accept?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Because Chairperson, we realised the danger that we was facing, that is why we changed the instruction and used our discretion.  We did not want to encounter any danger, that is why we went for assistance from the Lesotho police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulo, I would request you that if you don't follow a question, please say so, because now we are going onto something which I did not ask you.  It would make it easier for you if you haven't hear the question, to ask that it be repeated.  My question was, between the two, that you subsequently used your discretion and earlier you said you had to do as you were told, which one of the two should I accept, because here you said you use your discretion?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I would request that you accept that we used our own discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I'm sorry about that Mr Lax, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You see with regard to KK, Mr Jagga told us there was a file on him in your office.  Did you know that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, I did not know anything about KK's file, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But surely the file would have been out when you were having your discussion about him, that was the source of all the information about the man, and there you are having a meeting talking about him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There was no file before us in that meeting, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And where were you supposed to go to find this man?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We were told that he was at Roma, we should go there at his place and Mr Jantjie had the direction about that house, he also had the direction about KK's girlfriend's house where she was staying.

MR LAX: So he had two addresses?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see all the other witnesses have said he only had one address, they haven't said you had two addresses.