Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go in search of other people to kill, why didn't you go into other houses and see if there were people hiding there?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: The weapon I was armed with discouraged me from behaving with the full anger that I had, because it was not an effective weapon which I could use to kill someone.

MR BERGER: You tried to kill one person with this stick and you told the Committee yesterday if I'm correct, that this was the kind of stick that could kill people.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I hit him very hard with the intention that he should be seriously injured.  Yes, it was a weapon which was capable of killing him.  When I say it wasn't just a small stick which you can see outside, I mean it was not a soft, it was a very hard stick, that's what I was trying to explain.

MR BERGER: I understand that, it was a stick capable of killing people.  My question to you is, why didn't you go into other houses to see if there were people there that you could kill?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It was because they knew me and because of the weapon I was armed with.  Therefore, and also during their trial, most people from Boipatong came to evidence never stated that they did see me, because I was moving outside of the houses trying to hide myself.  However if I was armed, maybe I could have fired outside through the windows.

MR BERGER: But the fact remains, even on your own evidence, that you did go into a house.  Now you didn't know whose house that was, you didn't know if there were people in the house, and you didn't know if they'd be able to identify you.  You did it on that occasion, why didn't you do it on others?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I did that.  When we were getting out I realised I didn't do anything, and I tried to get something that I could do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger have you finished this point?

MR BERGER: I have yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand from your - the turn of your evidence that you wanted to obtain if you could, an AK47, and that's a lethal weapon.  That seems to suggest to us that you wanted to cause maximum damage to human lives.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You had a stick, you only hit one person with that stick during the entire duration of the attack.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that prevented you from using that stick on more that one individual?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I was avoiding from entering houses.  The person whom I hit was someone who was being followed by others along the streets, so he came past me as he was running towards us, we stopped him and I hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from this individual who ran towards you, throughout your remaining in Boipatong, no other individual ran in your direction?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a child?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a woman?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Tshabangu I'm putting to you that once again you are being very spare with the truth and you are deliberately underplaying your role in the killings in Boipatong that night.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That is untrue Sir.  I associate myself with all the acts as if it's something that I did, because I did associate myself with the people who were committing these acts.

MR BERGER: You saw a lot of people carrying possessions out of Boipatong, am I right?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know why this was done?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know.  If I was the one who took the goods maybe I will have an answer today.  I won't be able to answer because I never took anything from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Did you not ask your comrades "what are you doing, why are you taking the stuff, why are you plundering", didn't you ask them?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Is it because it was not strange to you, you expected your comrades to plunder Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.  It was not a strange thing because this is what normally happens in a township, if people come to burn your house, they will take anything which they can lay their hands on.  If you have a shop, they go in and take your Chappies.

MR BERGER: I don't want to trivialise it so I won't go down that road, but you know that all the goods were burned.  What I want to ask you is, is it correct that these goods were burned at a time when the police were surrounding the hostel?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I won't be able to comment as to whether they were surrounding the hostel or not, but the goods were burned in the hostel.

MR BERGER: On the day following the massacre?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the police were present at the hostel that day, correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes in the evening they were present.  The things were burned in the morning if I remember well.

MR BERGER: Is it you evidence that the police did not seal the hostel very soon after the attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: My evidence is that police sealed the hostel on the 18th in the evening, and the things or goods were burned at about 9, 10 or 11 - it might be earlier or before that.

MR BERGER: You saw the goods being burned, and yet you say that you have no knowledge who gave the order to burn the goods?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I said I don't remember who gave the instruction.

MR BERGER: How is it that you remember who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong?  You remember things that happened before the attack, but you cannot remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It is because this person who gave the instruction that Boipatong should be attacked, it wasn't the first time he gave such instructions.  He used to give other instructions, like we should be prepared, that was Damarra and Mkhize.  This was repeated for about two times, but I can't remember exactly who gave instruction that things must be burned.

MR BERGER: As far as people who you have identified you either shot or were near you during the attack, I want to put it to you that it's - again you're not being full and frank because the people you name are either dead or co-applicants.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I would say Bongo was there, Sapila.  Kleintjie was present, he's still alive.  Moosa Dlamini, he was there, he's still alive.  And someone by the surname of Mujene was present, he's still alive.  Mantjebene, he passed away, he was present.  Nyembo was present - I don't know whether he's still alive or not because I don't see him anymore.  Gobe was there, Bujose was there.  I don't know why you think I'm hiding something.

MR BERGER: Because when you were asked this question when you gave your evidence yesterday, you didn't mention any of these names.

MR STRYDOM: I specifically remember the names Gobe and Bujose being mentioned.

MR BERGER: Not by this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I do recall that Gobe was mentioned, but I - let me just check.  Would that have been in his evidence in chief Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson in the light of the fact that more that one witness testified, I lead the witness, I didn't take notes.  I must align my memory, I may be wrong.  I would seek some guidance from Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a number of names were mentioned by ...

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson I will withdraw my objection because my learned friend here has got notes, and those name do no appear there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: In fact my learned friend I think is thinking of the evidence of Mr Khanyile.

CHAIRPERSON: And did we not in that regard also issue a direction that we should be notified?

MR PRIOR: That was ANC people.

MR BERGER: No Chairperson it wasn't those people, it was the member of the South African National Defence Force and others who were mentioned by this witness.  It was Nonusa, and Mabone.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr he's withdrawing that, so the question stands.