Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry, you'll have to explain that to me, let's say you shoot one shot and you aim at the people who is in one line, where do you aim then if you aim at a whole group?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, a shotgun sprays, if you stand a few metres from them, the shotgun would spray, at the most, 10 to 12cm, so then I can say that I did aim at a person.

MR MALAN: But you see that's the point, that was the question that was put to you, will you answer that question again please?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, that round could have hit any person there.

MR MALAN: Surely you could have only hit the person that you aimed at?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It could be, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Well will you explain it to us, why you say that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, like I said, a shotgun sprays.  If I aimed at a person, it is possible that I did hit that person.

MR MALAN: But I understood you that you could have possibly have hit one of the victims, rather than aiming at the group?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, a pipe is an instrument that you fit in, so it is not necessary that you will hit the person that you aim at.

MR MALAN: How far were you from the person who you shot?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Approximately two metre.

MR MALAN: And you really think that at a distance of two metre, with a pipe shotgun, that you will hit somebody else rather than the person that you aimed at?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I could have hit him or either the person next to him or both.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you want to put any question as a result of questions that have been put (indistinct)?

MR PRINSLOO: No thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Visser.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Thank you, Your Excellency.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRINSLOO: The next applicant is Badenhorst, Your Honour.  His evidence appears on page 101 to page 116.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: (confirms to speak truth)

MR PRINSLOO: On page 108 of the application, paragraph 13, the sixth line from the bottom, of paragraph 13 that is, I'd just like to bring in an amendment, the words, to put the words "later" in front of "we", so and then to remove the "us" and to put "us" between "het" and "opdrag", so "later we received instruction".

ADV BOSMAN: Excuse me, I didn't get the amendment that you're making?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, it's page 108, paragraph 13, the sixth line from the bottom of that particular paragraph, insert the word "later" (indistinct) the word "ons", and delete the word "ons", and to enter the word "ons" between "het" and "opdrag", so it will thus read, "later het ons opdrag gekry".

ADV BOSMAN: Okay.

MR PRINSLOO: And then also on page 107, Chairperson, paragraph 10, it says, "General Oelofse told us", or rather "command Klopper", it was told by Kloppers to the applicant, not Oelofse.    Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Badenhorst, you were prosecuted in the higher courts of the Witwatersrand, Judge Marais, and you were found guilty on several charges of murder and other charges, and initially you received the death penalty?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And after the Appeal Court was, it was amended to life-long prison sentence?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Chairperson, I got 28 years.

MR PRINSLOO: Sorry, 28 years.   Mr Badenhorst, you joined the AWB?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And when was this?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: 1991.

MR PRINSLOO: How old were you at that stage?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I was 17, 18 years old.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage, what standard were you in?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I finished standard seven and then I went to the technical college, and after I did my N1 there, I went to work at Diesel Services.

MR PRINSLOO: But when you joined the AWB, you were 17?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you were busy with your studies then, or were you already finished with it then?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, I was already finished with school then.  I finished standard seven, I think it was when I was in college or just after I finished college.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Badenhorst, why did you join the AWB?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I believe in the ideology of the AWB, I believe that we can rule ourselves, that's the Afrikaans people, I believe we have our own culture, and we have the right to maintain that culture.   I also believe in own education and I also believe that we, as a nation, should be able to practise our own religion, and no-one should interfere with that.

MR PRINSLOO: You don't have military service yourself?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any reason for you, did you want to receive military training?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, when I was quite small still, I always wanted to be a soldier, and it was one of my great desires to go and fight in Angola, and also to be in the Special Forces, and I really wanted to be in the South African Defence Force.

MR PRINSLOO: Before you could do it, the army retreated out of Angola and you couldn't do it anymore?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct, Chairperson, there was a political change at that time.

MR PRINSLOO: And in 1991, when you joined the AWB, was there any other thing that made you join them?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, there were two incidents in 1991.   The first incident was that my brother in law, Johan du Plooy, went for his camps in Messina, his army camps, and during those camps, he and the men who were with him stepped on a landmine, and because of that he lost his leg.

MR PRINSLOO: And the second incident, Mr Badenhorst?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, it was the battle of Ventersdorp, a good friend of ours, and also of my father, who also has the same surname as us, Andries Badenhorst, was there at Ventersdorp, there where the police fired on the white farmers because they offered resistance and they did not want that FW de Klerk could come and give a speech there, and during all that chaos, whilst the white policemen shot at the farmers, he was killed by a black taxi in the road, and the day thereafter, this convinced me to join the AWB, and the day after I did indeed join the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Badenhorst, when you joined the AWB and you fell under area 9 and the general in command was Japie Oelofse, is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive training in the AWB?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, that's correct, since 1991, I often attended AWB camps and that's where I received most of my training by the instructors we had.

MR PRINSLOO: What was the nature of the training you received?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: It entailed war techniques, the handling of fire weapons, self defence, etcetera.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you also attend meetings of the AWB?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you attend any meetings where the leaders, for example Eugene Terreblanche, addressed these meetings?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And did he have an influence on you, the leader now, Mr Terreblanche?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, definitely, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you explain that influence to us?