Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Meyer you will appreciate the fact that we haven't had time to look at your document, I will just ask a few, not really questions, but points of clarification.  On page 1 of the Executive's Summary, there is a paragraph starting with "Circumstances leading up....", the last sentence there it says,
"This submission alludes to the dismal failure of the so-called Leipzig Option advocated by the SACP with the ANC in tow, and the grave mistakes made by SACP leaders in underestimating the Gqozo regimes' resolve not to abdicate its power because of the mere presence of the ANC/SACP alliance and its rhetoric".
I would really like you to briefly explain what is meant by that.
 Then page 2 to 3 there is a statement where I would say you argue that the government leaders of the TBVC did not try to preserve any of those states' independence 
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indefinitely.  That argument it seems to be a contradiction given the fact that people who then led a march, that march led to brutal shootings of defenceless marchers, it's a contradiction which I would like you to talk to, because given your statement I would imagine that nobody will decide to shoot anyone in view of the fact that it was no longer an issue.  So it's a point also which I would like you to sort-of clarify us or elaborate upon.
 Then page 5 where you say, the last line, you say,
"The NP wishes to achieve reconciliation between all who were affected by this incident by establishing the truth so that all can make peace with their adversaries and themselves and so that all can tackle the challenges which face all of us".
I would just like to put it to you that I can tell you straight away that having had the advantage of talking to survivors in different communities we are not likely to achieve peace if we have no way of declaring in full the thinking which went on at the time and how people sees it especially now when they look back.  As some of the fellow Commissioners have indicated people might be gracious when they appear before us but often when we do community education they raise penetrating questions regarding what happened and why was it done.  
 The last question which I have, I would just like to know whether there were specific instructions given possibly by the Minister of Law and Order at the time to all people who were armed, particularly people who represented the State and the government so as to handle the situation differently as against what had happened in June 16, we have EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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heard about the six day wars, the seven day wars, this incident happened at the time when peace negotiations were well in advance, one will assume that the State and government officials were given specific instructions to handle the situation differently?  So I would just like your comment on that as well.  Thank you.

MR MEYER: Chairperson, Commissioner, as far as the first point of clarification is concerned on page 1 of the Executive Summary, in that particular sentence we are referring first of all to what is being referred to in the main document also as the so-called Leipzig Option.  I think that is terminology that comes from certain newspaper quotes that is being referred to in the main document where I think it was Mr Raymond Suttner was quoted by referring to that Option.  There are extensive quotes in the main document referring to Mr Suttner and others who have apparently been responsible to design the strategy and afterwards they were called upon to give their reactions and so forth by the media, so that is what is being referred to there.   I would say that I think the clarity will come if one reads the main document in that regard.
 The other part of that sentence indicates that maybe on the side of those that led the demonstration there was an under-estimation of what actually Gqozo had in mind, and that there was something of, if one also reads the comments afterwards, again in the main document, it appears that there was almost a challenge that was executed by those that led the demonstration to see almost how far Gqozo might go in his reaction.  And I think that is what is being indicated to in this sentence.  But that links up with the next page and your second question actually.
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 In that regard Chairperson I think it's important to note that, and I think one has to make the observation that although the parties, be it at Codesa or at a later stage, all agreed to the reincorporation of the TBVC states they resisted it in various ways, up to a very late stage.  I must remind Honourable Commissioners of for instance the case of Bophuthatswana they were not even after the conclusion of the interim constitution, or the negotiations on the interim constitution, they were at that stage even still not prepared to give up and to become part of the New South Africa.  I don't have to refer now, because it's not relevant as far as this meeting is concerned and I believe the Commission will separately deal with that issue, but various other decisions and actions had to follow before the actual reincorporation of Bophuthatswana could be effected, although they were also part of the original agreement in Working Group 4.  So what I am trying to prove with this point is to say the parties were all part of the original agreement in Working Group 4, but it didn't mean it's true.
 Now with hindsight one can reflect on that and say it is clear that they did not right through up to the end, or at every given moment, agree to actually work for the execution of those agreements.  And that again is reflected also, to my mind, in what happened on the 7th of September. Because in a certain way that was an indication of Gqozo's reaction against the agreement to which he was himself part of.  
 I hope I have tried to clarify that particular point that we are actually getting to in the submission, namely to say there were agreements, all parties were part of it, including the Ciskean Government, but they were not 
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necessarily executing it in the way that one should have thought they should have.
 Maybe the last question Mr Kriel would like to respond to.