Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MS COLERIDGE: No, I don't Chairperson.  I just want to place a few facts on record, Chairperson, from the side of the Commission, that at no stage did any one of our Investigative Unit, Mr Zenzile Khoisan or Mr Petersen, make any promises to Mr Isgak Hardien, and if need be we could lead evidence to that effect.
	And then secondly, Chairperson, just in relation to the legal representation, it is correct that Mr Williams did contact me in relation to legal representation, because that was the gist, knowing that we were going to subpoena Mr Isgak Hardien.  We then appointed Adv Mark Sher, who then withdrew as counsel of record, Chairperson.  We thereafter approached De Klerk and Van Gend and then Mr Bennie Rheede was appointed.  I just want to place that on record.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Coleridge.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: No, Mr Chairperson, I don't have a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, just a few small ones.
	You parked the vehicle at the back on the corner.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Which direction was it facing in?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Facing the building.

MR LAX: So you could look through the front windscreen at the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You see, Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha said the opposite, they said it was pointing in the other direction.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Towards the shop?

MR LAX: Exactly, exactly.  Any comment on that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I drove and we parked so that we could see what was going on.

MR LAX: Now they also both say that the vehicle was moving around the front of the building at the time the bomb went off, not stationary at the back, as you've said.

ISGAK HARDIEN: We drove round the block and we went to go and park at the back.  This is what I can recall.

MR LAX: Their is evidence is consistent, when the bomb exploded they were driving round the front of the building.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, I don't think that's correct, because we had the inspection in loco and Chairperson, you asked Mr van Zyl where the car was parked and if you remember, Mr Lax when I questioned I said well, 10 metres, Mr Lax joked and said well, it's a long car, where they said the car went back a bit, then it exploded.  That's how I recall the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say I'll have to refer to my notes, there's been so much evidence that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: If I'm mistaken, obviously I apologise.  The record will speak for itself, but my understanding of their evidence was that the vehicle was moving at the time that the bomb exploded. You say it was stationary?

ISGAK HARDIEN: This is how I can remember it, we were stationary.

MR LAX: Now just to clarify this, you said that you didn't know that Mr van Zyl was detained with you, or at the same time as you were detained.

ISGAK HARDIEN: What I said is that it was not at the same time, but I knew that he was also detained.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he's talking about when you were arrested and detained in terms of Section 29, that's what he's talking about, did you know that Mr van Zyl was also detained?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Under Section 29?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that when you were yourself in detention, or did you learn about that later?

ISGAK HARDIEN: At a later stage I heard about it.  Peaches shouted from the other side that he was ...

MR LAX: You see in your Section 29 statement on page 159, and that was made on the 21st of February 1990, the last paragraph says the following
"Theunissen de Wet is currently detained at the SAP, Secunda.  I saw him for the first time last week in Secunda, in an office."
And then it goes on to talk about something else and then it says:
"I immediately recognised him as the person who I knew as Theunissen de Wet."

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I recognised him.

MR LAX: The point is, your statements says he saw him and you identified him as De Wet, while you were in detention a week before you made this statement, which was literally a week after you'd been, or about two weeks after you'd been detained.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, the police brought him to me.  I do not know when he was picked up.

MR LAX: But then you must have known he was detained under the same terms as you and you couldn't have found that out afterwards, you must have found it out at the same time.  You understand?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand.

MR LAX: You've just told us that you only found it out after your release, that isn't correct.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Then I misunderstood you, because they brought him to me to ask me if this is Theunissen de Wet.  And I do not even know when he was released.

MR LAX: Now you said something that I was interested in earlier, about the caretaker locking the gate at the time you were going back to the car.  You in fact told Van Zyl the caretaker's locking the gate, they must all be gone.  Did you actually see the caretaker locking the gate?

ISGAK HARDIEN: When I finished with Mr Williams, the caretaker came out.  I do not know if he was standing round the corner, but he was the one who locks the gates.  I saw him.  So I just thought that everybody's now leaving.

MR LAX: Well which gates was he locking?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The front gates.

MR LAX: The front gate?  Well is that at all even remotely probable, given the fact that we now know that there were people inside the building and that they were injured and that they were there when the bomb exploded?  Why would he have locked the gate knowing there were people in the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Well for me, or I thought that when he's locking the gate there is nobody left in the building.

MR LAX: And then the last aspect, this vehicle that you drove in was someone else's vehicle that you borrowed, we gathered that at the beginning of your evidence, is that right?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: But it was a vehicle known in the community.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, everybody knew the car.

MR LAX: And all the people who came out of the building, even on your own version, would have recognised that car as being there.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I said I left my car at home and I walked across.  When I went to the scene.

MR LAX: No, you're misunderstanding me.  At the time that you and Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha were in the car waiting for the place to empty out, all the people who were leaving the building, on your version, must have seen that car there and a few of them would have known that car.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes but there's not only one blue Datsun, there are a lot of Datsuns.

MR LAX: Well you didn't change the number plates.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Nothing was changed.  If you walk past there you're not going to say oh, it's a blue Stanza, you're not going to worry about the registration numbers.

MR LAX: Yes.  Weren't you running the risk of further identification?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It never crossed my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Members of the Panel?

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, I just have one question arising out of what Mr Kahanovitz' cross-examination, in particular relating to the evidence of Mr Oesman.
	Mr Hardien, after the bombing of the Early Learning Centre, were you ever called in by the Athlone Police Station or a police officer to question you on the issue of this bombing?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Never.

MR MARTINI: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Hardien, that concludes your evidence, thank you.  You may stand down.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your assistance, Mr Rheede.

MR RHEEDE: It's a pleasure Mr Chairperson, are we excused totally from the proceedings?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, Mr Rheede, thank you.