Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I want to deal with your evidence at the Harms Commission.  You testified there under your pseudonym, Christo Britz, and you were also in disguise.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you were found by Judge Harms to be an untrustworthy and contradictory witness.  I don't know if you want me to show you the - well it's at page 39 of bundle D.  At the top of page 39, Judge Harms has the following to say
"The Commission has a serious problem about relying to any significant extent on any of the witnesses that gave evidence on the various internal projects of the CCB.  On the one hand there are the witnesses such as Verster, Christo Britz, Braam Cilliers and Shane du Plooy, whose evidence is so vague or contradictory that at various points it is no value."
And you'll also see that there is a footnote there, footnote 8, and referring to yourself, Verster and two other people, the Judge notes:
"These witnesses were allowed to testify in disguise.  They alleged that they feared for their lives.  In view of the fact that criminal proceedings are anticipated, their identities are disclosed in an annexure.  The disguise did not render a finding as to credibility difficult.  Viewed as a whole, the witnesses were untrustworthy in any case."
Do you confirm that that finding was made?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I said earlier that the circumstances under which we had to testify before the Harms Commission, it was a very traumatic time and I cannot but agree that that which is said in the document is true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Judge Harms also found that you were one of the people who were directly responsible for the disappearance of CCB files.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, that's his finding, I deny it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now just in general terms, would it be correct to say that the evidence that you gave was in support of what I'll call Joe Verster's version, that Region 6's task was to gather information internally to, and I'll use his Afrikaans words "penetreer vyandelike pyplyne na die buiteland"?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, but it wasn't the full truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you could please look at bundle F - Mr Chairman, the evidence of this witness is approximately in the middle of that bundle.  The bundle as a whole isn't paginated, so you will see the order of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) open on page 1182 and it's not the beginning but it's ...(intervention)

MR LAX: It's 1170.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Mr Basson, could you go to page 1171 ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my bundle is paginated.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, no, I'm saying paginated in the sense, there's no new pagination but the original - it has the pagination of the original record.

MR LAX: Ours are paginated, that's page 419 with the pagination given by us, but let's stick to the original if the rest of you don't have that.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, let me just explain the pagination.  The Committee's were all paginated and then I had written to all the legal representatives requesting them just to paginate this one.  So that is all.  So everybody else will probably have paginated versions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll deal with the original page numbers.  Page 1171.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm just waiting for the witness to - he's having trouble with the binder.

WOUTER J BASSON: I've got it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you can just - I don't know if anybody has one in a lever arch file, he's really going to struggle with ...  If you can maybe just read to yourself from about line 5 to line 20 of that page.
MR BASSON
"On this ..."
(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, no, don't bother to read it into the record, I think to speed it up just read it to yourself.  If you can just indicate to me when you've completed it.

WOUTER J BASSON: Very well.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  This was in support of this version that suggested that the South African Police might be brought in to take action against people who were threats to the security of the State, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And I take it that you admit that that evidence is false?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, it's not completely correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well it's not correct at all.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know of any cases given to the Police.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's totally false, not partially false.

WOUTER J BASSON: Alright, I agree with you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then if you could go to page 1184 ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz, this that's just been read, it seems to be within a quote within his own evidence, from some document.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, I think he's reading from his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not so much the evidence given at the Harms Commission being false, but the evidence of the content from document from which he read is false.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but each of the people who testified at the Commission, prepared an affidavit which is used as a basis for their evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes is that the affidavit?  Was that from an affidavit?  I don't know, I just see quotation marks here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: As I recall, and maybe the witness can help me, he was in fact reading that he prepared for the Harms Commission.

WOUTER J BASSON: I think that's the fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Now the next page?  I didn't get it, Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: 1184.
	While we're there, if you could go to 1183, just look on your left, at round about line 15 you're asked about an amount of R5.3-million that had been approved for a project.  My understanding of your evidence is that that related to Project "Direksie".

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, that is an external project and I don't want to say which project specifically.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now at the bottom of 1184 you deny that the CCB was involved in Webster's death, which you will know is a different question to whether Webster's assassination was an authorised CCB project.  You understand the distinction?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I think so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you've heard it already being pointed out that Lafras Luitingh gave evidence that the information he received about Mr Barnard's involvement in Webster, he drew to Joe Verster's attention and Joe Verster has also given evidence that that occurred.

WOUTER J BASSON: I read that in the documents, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did they not come to discuss this with you at the time?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson.  If Mr Verster knew about it, then he kept it to himself.  I was never aware of it, I don't if any other member of Region 6 in terms of Mr Burger's people, were aware of it.  I was never told "I hear that Mr Barnard was involved."

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're telling us that from the 1st of May 1989, which is the date of Mr Webster's assassination, for the rest of that year you didn't even hear a rumour that Barnard and Botha had been involved?

WOUTER J BASSON: I didn't even hear that, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Weren't you very interested at that stage to establish whether Mr Botha should be brought back from being placed on ice?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I cannot remember until when the six month period lasted.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was it a definite period of six months that he was told ...(intervention)

WOUTER J BASSON: I recall that because put the suspension in writing and I put it on his file and it was six months.

CHAIRPERSON: But on the 31st of August he was still on ice.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was this intended to be a punishment for Mr Botha?