Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-17

CHAIRPERSON: But it would be more ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: To the north of that corner?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, along Bakwena just where number 15 is indicated.  Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Now in your evidence in chief you made reference to Apollo lights.  From that position of that house, where will you find the closest Apollo light?

MIRIAM MOLETE: The nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola Street.

MR STRYDOM: The corner of Majola and which street?

MIRIAM MOLETE: It's at the corner of Majola and the street next to Slovo.

MR STRYDOM: That's Bakwena Street?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes that is correct, it's Bakwena.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that that's not correct.  The two closest Apollo lights you will find firstly on the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Street, that's towards the right hand corner of the map in front of you, Exhibit J so it's two streets lower than Majola.  Corner Mashweshwe and Bakwena.

MR BERGER: If you can just let me find Mashweshwe I'll indicate it.

MR STRYDOM: That's the last street.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mashweshwe is the one that runs parallel Baralong.

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes it's at Mashweshwe Street, next to the tuck shop, it's just facing Florence's kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: And the other Apollo lighting, that vicinity or let me put it, the other one is not too far away, is the Apollo light on the corner of Bapedi and Morkari Avenue.  Do you know if there's an Apollo light as well?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes I know.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, do you have comments?

MIRIAM MOLETE: No.

MR BERGER: Ms Molete wants to explain to me, can you ask her to explain to everyone what's she's indicating about the Apollo lights?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, let me put it this way, I pointed to you according to my information you will find the two Apollo lights just to make it clear on the corner of Bapedi and Morkari Avenue and on the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Avenue, do you agree with that or don't you agree?  Can you explain?

MIRIAM MOLETE: It is not in Mashweshwe but it's in Makwena, just next to the tuck shop.

MR BERGER: No, she said Majola.  The interpreter translated it as Makwena but the witness said Majola.

MIRIAM MOLETE: It is between Baralong and Majola on the side of Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: You've mentioned the tuck shop, maybe you must indicate where is that tuck shop?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, as far as the witness is concerned, the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola and Bakwena is that right?

MIRIAM MOLETE: No, Baralong Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Baralong and Majola don't intersect, they run parallel to one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR BERGER: So what the witness is indicating is that the Apollo light is on the side of Slovo Park, I would assume that by that she means in Bakwena between Baralong and Majola.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's Majola?

MR BERGER: Majola is one below Bapedi and Baralong is one below Majola so if one follows the two of them towards Slovo Park one hits Bakwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Bakwena.

MR BERGER: And she says that the nearest Apollo light is between Baralong and Majola.  Is that right?  Somewhere here?

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not at the corner of Majola and Bakwena?  Okay.

MIRIAM MOLETE: It is not in Bakwena because Bakwena runs from Bapedi.

MR BERGER: Let's just get clarity here?

CHAIRPERSON: Look, well I'm a bit lost here.  Let me just go through this process once again.  What I have recorded here which was interpreted was the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola and Bakwena Streets?

MIRIAM MOLETE: This street runs from Bapedi.  When you walk with Bapedi from the shop and then you turn left, but when you turn on the right hand there is an Apollo which is between Majola and Baralong and there is a tuck shop and that Apollo light is just behind that tuck shop.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, how far is this light from Slovo Park?

MIRIAM MOLETE: The people who live in Slovo Park buy from that tuckshop.  You just cross the main road.  It is not a distance from the tuck shop.  That street that runs from Bapedi to Baralong is known as Bakwena and then on the other side there is no street, you only see the houses on the Slovo Park side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where the beer hall is?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes there was an old barber which is no longer there, I know that one.

MR STRYDOM: And that was on the corner of Mashweshwe and Bakwena Street, is that correct?

MIRIAM MOLETE: It is on the same street as Bakwena but there is no street from Bapedi towards that bar.

MR STRYDOM: You see I want to inform you and Chairperson, I'm going to refer to Exhibit EE on page 19 of the report about the elimination situation in Boipatong.  It is stated in this report that there are seven Apollo lights distributed around the Northern Township and then they are tabled in this report and the fourth - page 19 Chairperson, it's marked on the bottom corner.  The fourth Apollo light, there seems no argument about that is situated at corner Bapedi Street and Morkari Avenue, it seems to be opposite house 208 Morkari, I think it should read.  Then the other Apollo light which I referred you to is number 7, the reference there is Beer Hall, corner Mashweshwe and Bakwena Streets.  Now what I want to put to you, according to this report which was compiled shortly after the Boipatong incident, there is no Apollo light where you indicated to be in Bakwena between Majola and Baralong Streets so if we accept for a moment that this report is correct, I'm putting it to you that you are wrong?

MR BERGER: The witness said that it's not in Bakwena, she's indicated that it's near Slovo Park behind the tuck shop and to get to the tuck shop you just cross the road and she said it's between Baralong and Majola.

MR STRYDOM: No, you don't understand, so it's just more to Slovo Park than to Bakwena Street.

MR BERGER: No, I think it's just slightly in towards Boipatong, just across which what would be Bakwena.

MR LAX: Just to put it in terms of direction, it's marginally north of where this report seems to indicate it is, perhaps a block or a half a block north, that's what she's indicating.

MR STRYDOM: Well, what I'm putting to you is according to the report there is no Apollo light where you indicated it to be, that's what I'm putting to you?

MIRIAM MOLETE: I do not agree with that report because I know there is an Apollo light there.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, the Apollo light you are referring to now, was it also there on the night of the attack?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes it was there and it was late.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is this Apollo light that's in this street here?

MR STRYDOM: I think the one in issue ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's she's referring to.

MR STRYDOM: I've put to her that there's an Apollo light on the - very close to the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Right?

MR STRYDOM: And she says no, it's higher up in a Northern direction between Majola and Baralong Streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, as I understand the evidence you put it to her that - I think you said the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Mashweshwe and Bafokeng Street and the answer is yes.

MR STRYDOM: No, no in Bakwena Street and not Bafokeng, it was Bakwena Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Bakwena Street, yes and the answer was yes.

MR STRYDOM: Yes that is initially the answer and then I asked her to elaborate and then she changed the position and she said no, the Apollo light, the closest Apollo light is between Majola and Baralong Street.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose the question really has been phrased somewhat differently because as I understand it, the question was the next nearest I think it was you canvassed with us now, let's clear this up.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, sorry, when the yes was Molete was listening to Mr Strydom when he was positioning the lights, so she was saying yes.