Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

MR LAX: He said much earlier that he was on his way to Mozambique, he has confirmed that he was on his way to Mozambique.  He has confirmed that Greytown isn't in the direction of Mozambique and he cannot explain that.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MR LAX: That, it is not in issue that, from the time he dropped his comrades with the other vehicle, he was on his way to Mozambique.  That is not in issue.

CHAIRPERSON: And it has been interpreted, his last answer was that "I was also running away from the police."

MS THABETHE: That is how he landed up in Greytown.

MR LAX: Correct.

MS THABETHE: As opposed to going to Mozambique.

CHAIRPERSON: He stopped in Greytown to let the kombi cool down and to check whether the police were after him.  That is what was translated.

MR LAX: It is clearly understood by us.  It doesn't change the nature of my question.

MS THABETHE: Okay, that is not how I heard it, but maybe the applicant should repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you hear?

MS THABETHE: I heard him saying that from the bottle store, he ran away, that is how he landed up in Greytown.  He was running away from the policeman, so it is not like he was going to Mozambique from the bottle store, but he ended up in Greytown, because he was running away from the policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what was interpreted?

MS THABETHE: Oh, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: As Mr Lax says, in the context of his evidence as a whole, that is now the second reason why he went to Greytown, substantially or essentially he was on his way to Mozambique, but he, as I understand his evidence, he was taking a different route to avoid detection, as I broadly understand his answer, and that is what Mr Lax is asking him about.

MR LAX: You see, I am asking something completely different.  What I am asking is this, as far as you were concerned, you were now ready to go to Mozambique, after laying low, to effect your transaction with Antonio Dios, is that right?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I would like to explain again.   As I was about to leave from Greytown, to Mozambique, I couldn't manage with the amount of money that I had, and I couldn't get any transport that would come from Mozambique to KWaZulu Natal.

MR LAX: Why did you tell us earlier, before tea, that you were on your way to Mozambique?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me help you remember.  You said that with the kombi and the R3 000-00 that you robbed at Mike's Kitchen, there was insufficient funds to complete the mission, and that is why the Stanger bottle store came into the picture as a target for robbery.  Do you understand?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, in all that you are saying, you are right, but the thing is maybe you did not understand me properly.  I am going to explain again.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot be right if I didn't understand you properly, then I cannot be right?  You better get your story right.  I am just reminding you about your answers and the context in which you gave them earlier today.
	Either when you were at Greytown, you landed up Greytown either on your way in the way you described, to Mozambique, or for some other reason.  What is the position?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I would like to explain again.   In Stanger I was running away, when I left Stanger and the others, I told them to go back, but I had to proceed to Mozambique, but I was under pressure because I was running away, and the road to Greytown, doesn't proceed to Mozambique.  I had to take any other route, I had to leave the car in Greytown, so that I will be able to move from there to Mozambique, to evade the police.
	It is not that I moved from Stanger to Mozambique.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were on your way to Mozambique when you were at Greytown?  Do I understand you correctly?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax has asked you to explain the following, if that is so that you were on your way to Mozambique when you reached Greytown, how do you explain that when earlier today you told us that you had insufficient funds to go to, to complete the mission that you had in Mozambique, and that is why you decided you were going to rob another store, to obtain this R36 000?  How do you explain that conflict?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I want to explain again.  After failing in the robbery in Stanger, it was important for us to make sure that the car crosses the border to Mozambique, even though we were not going to take the firearms but I had to get money for the firearms, but the car had to cross the border to Mozambique.
	That is why I say we had to leave for Mozambique on that particular day, because I couldn't stay for a night with this car that was obtained during a robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to the question?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is my answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Now let's turn to page 34 in the bundle.
	This is a copy of your application for indemnity in respect of this matter?  Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your signature at the foot of that page?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At page 35 it seems to be a letter attached to the application?   Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.  I first wrote the letter, the form was sent to prison after writing this letter.

CHAIRPERSON: That is your signature at the foot of that page, page 35?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that letter on page 35 was written by you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume you were satisfied with the contents thereof?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am satisfied, I am the one who wrote the letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, on page 35, in the middle thereof, you say there that you denied the case in court, but
"... I feel that now I have to talk the truth in order to be indemnified on these grounds ...",
	did you write that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say
"... The ANC is the one to be blamed."
	Did you write that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
"... Because it has failed to give us money or logistical support even to supply the troops."
	Did you write that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON
"... So understand that the political organisation is not (I don't know what is that word - it is not a ...)?

MR LAX: Company.

CHAIRPERSON: Company?
"... But my wife as a foreigner occupy, including my three month baby (I don't know what that next word is) cannot understand that they are hungry and the kid is always in need of medication and there is no jobs.  On those grounds I would like to appeal to be indemnified under those politically motivated reasons."
	Did you write all that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the truth as you say in this letter that you want to talk the truth?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I first wrote this letter before the TRC body was established and what I wrote here, I was together with the other comrades who were inmates.  Because we did not want to reveal some of the organisation's activities, we had to do this in a specific manner, that is why I decided to write this letter in this way.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the truth?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, it is the truth, but this does not necessarily mean that this letter is the same as the one that I drafted with my legal representative.  The contents - I am saying what I wrote here, we were together with the other comrades in prison, we wanted to write this letter in a specific manner, because we did not want to reveal some of the activities because we did not know anything about the TRC.  What is important is the one that we are talking about right now, and at the time we did not take the TRC seriously.

MR LAX: Mr Sithole, the TRC had not even been promulgated yet, this was in 1994 that you wrote this letter, in June 1994.  This was a different process of indemnity under what was known as the Further  Indemnity Act of 1992.  The new government was already in power at that stage, the 20th of June, it is after the election?