Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Usually, yes.

MR MOERANE: And I assume that in this instance, you actually did that because you first consulted and then a statement was taken from you, it was presented to you to confirm its correctness?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, I believe that I did study it thoroughly.

MR MOERANE: Just give this Honourable Committee an idea of how the shooting came about, where were you, where was the other person or the other persons?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, we were in a straight line of four persons.  If I recall correctly, I was on the right point above, I cannot recall who was on my left, I don't know whether it was Mr Van Dyk or one of the other persons, I know that there was another person further on to the left.  I don't have the correct sequence of the persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you laying in touching distance from each other or were you spread out over a far greater distance between, the person on the extreme right ...

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I would say about two to three metres.

CHAIRPERSON: From the extreme right person to the extreme left, or two to three metres between each person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Between each person.

MR MOERANE: How far was the motor vehicle from you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Approximately as far as the chairs behind you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, that would be about five paces, would you say?  The chairs behind Mr Moerane?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I would say 15, that would be my estimation.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 15?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: From there to there, yes.

MR MOERANE: Yes, that sounds about right.   How was this motor vehicle positioned, what position was it facing in relation to your position?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Facing to my side.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it side on or was the headlights pointing towards you or the taillights, side on?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, it was the side, the right side was towards me.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the driver's side?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and what did you see?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It was dark, I couldn't see much.   We heard the persons approaching and the one person walked on the one side of the motor vehicle as I could see, and the other, walked on my side of the vehicle.  They were speaking as they arrived, but for a short while, just before they climbed back into the car, there was silence as if they had noticed something.  That is when the shots went off, that is when we began shooting.

MR MOERANE: Were you able to see the person on the driver's side of the motor vehicle?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: What about the other person, were you able to see him?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, I saw him.

MR MOERANE: Well, you see, my instructions are that the second person who was not near the car, instructed that he had actually gone to attend to a call of nature.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That may be so, then I may have seen him where he answered the call of nature.

MR MOERANE: That is why he escaped, because he was not right there where you were shooting?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is possible because he was on the other side of the vehicle.  The distance between him and the vehicle, I cannot say how great that distance was.

MR MOERANE: How come is it that you do not know who fired first?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, I didn't see a flash from the other side and naturally as I was positioned, or where I was positioned the grass was tall and I wasn't watching the people on our side, I simply heard the shots.

MR MOERANE: Was it dark there?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It was dark, yes.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that if you fire a firearm in the dark, you can see the flash of light?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, with certain firearms you can see the flash, others have extinguishers which enables you not to see the flame.

MR MOERANE: Well, let's assume that it was a Makarov being fired there, Makarov without a silencer, an ordinary Makarov, would you have been able to see the flash?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, I believe I would have seen it then.

MR MOERANE: And you did not see it?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, I didn't see it.

MR MOERANE: That area was quiet and dark, not so?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Would it be reasonable to infer from what you observed therefore that no shot was fired by the person who was on the driver's side?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That may be.

MR MOERANE: Why did you set this motor vehicle on fire?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, it was used by the enemy and we would do everything in our power to disable their logistics.

MR MOERANE: The intention was to disable the ANC as you perceived the situation, by destroying their transport?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Was it necessary to have this person set on fire or to find himself in a position where he would be burnt?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It probably wasn't necessary.

MR MOERANE: Why was it done?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I don't think that that person was our primary interest at that stage, we did what we had to do, we wanted to finish the job and we wanted to get away.

MR MOERANE: Wasn't the whole intention to burn him so that he could not be identified?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: My instructions are that when he was burnt, he was actually in the car?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, do you
have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Just one question, thank you Chairperson.   Mr Botha, just the one aspect regarding the issue that you said, the attempt to arrest them on page 252 of your amnesty application form, you said that statement is incorrect?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct, no attempt was made to arrest.

MS LOCKHAT: At which stage did you realise that this was an incorrect statement?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: When I read it here.

MS LOCKHAT: Because none of the other applicants said that there was an attempt to arrest per se, it was that it was an ambush, clearly to them it was an ambush.  Is it because theirs is conflicting with yours and therefore you are now changing your version?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No Chairperson, I think that we have made different inferences.  I work on the supposition that there will be arrests and that there will be information about activities.  It may be that we regarded the instruction differently or understood it differently.   In my mind the idea was that if we could undertake an arrest, we would do so.

MS LOCKHAT: It just seems strange that all this time from 1997 when you handed in this application to the Commission, this statement of yours was perfectly correct until the stage of this hearing today?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I didn't have any copy of the statement at my disposal, I never kept it at my home.  From the time that I read it there and the time that I signed it, until today, I have not seen it again.

MS LOCKHAT: Is it correct that you only applied for two incidents, the Nesden and this incident?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MS LOCKHAT: So didn't you regard this as an important issue, these two applications that you actually didn't even have a copy with you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, to tell you the truth, I may have underestimated the Amnesty Committee, I saw myself as a member of a war situation, I did not see any problems.  I was always working in the execution of my duties, with no other thoughts than that.

MS LOCKHAT: Who was your Commander at this time, was it Mr Pienaar?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: After this incident, did you report every detail of the incident to your Commander?