Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Were there any other persons who were destabilisingthe Kwandabele against independence?

ANSWER: Certainly, the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: ...within the Mbkhoto?

ANSWER: Do you mean apart from the Mbkhoto and the ANC?

<UNKNOWN>: In the camp of Mbkhoto, apart from Pete Ntuli,who else was involved in this destabilisation that was known toyou?

ANSWER: I simply can't remember.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, Pete Ntuli as you allege, was aleader of Mbkhoto which means he had followers and you(?) couldn'thave acted alone.

ANSWER: I have already said that the Mbkhoto assistedPete Ntuli but I would not know who the members were of the Mbkhoto,I simply would not be able to remember at this time.   Pete Ntuliwas their leader.

<UNKNOWN>: Didn't you have information about the completeoperations and activities of Mbkhoto in that area?

ANSWER: Personally I did not have all the information,there had been a special investigative team under the commandof Brigadier Van Wyk who did investigate the Mbkhoto.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you verify his findings inasfar as theinvestigation is concerned for you to go and kill Ntuli?

ANSWER: We could not achieve much with this investigation,
2. no /...
MR MPSHE 578 J H CRONJE
no one was charged out of this investigation.

<UNKNOWN>: You made mention of the fact - if I heard youcorrectly - that Pete Ntuli had caused the death of two childrenwho were thrown into a fire, do I recall you correctly?

ANSWER: That was information which we had received.  The matter had been investigated by the investigative officers. I do not believe that anything came of the investigation.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you told again as to why nothing cameout of the investigation?

ANSWER: No I was not told, I do not know.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you tell this Committee when was Pete Ntulidetermined a target, is it before he could become a Cabinet Ministeror after when he was now in office?

ANSWER: It is after he had become a Cabinet Minister.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : When was that, when did he become a CabinetMinister?

ANSWER: No I don't know.
MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Besides Pete Ntuli, were any other targetsdetermined by Trevits within Mbkhoto?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, if I understood you well in yourpolitical objective, one of the aims was to eliminate and to intimidateactivists.   Am I correct?

ANSWER: That was the case.

<UNKNOWN>: You have just told us that Pete Ntuli was aleader of Mbkhoto which turned against the Government and becamean activist and he had followers?

ANSWER: He did have followers.

<UNKNOWN>: Why was nothing done to the other members of
2. Mbkhoto /...
MR MPSHE 579 J H CRONJE
Mbkhoto because you knew that they were there and they were active?

ANSWER: We presumed that if you cut off the head of thesnake then the body would be useless.

<UNKNOWN>: The useless body would be members of Mbkhoto who had the ability to continue with the political activities,not so?

ANSWER: In my testimony I did say that Brigadier Lermthen appointed these Mbkhoto members as police constables.

<UNKNOWN>: ...was the Kwandabele Government aware of theelimination of Pete Ntuli?

ANSWER: They were not aware of its planning.

<UNKNOWN>: Was the activities, the unwanted activitiesof Pete Ntuli by the National Party ever discussed with the Governmentof Kwandabele?

ANSWER: I would not know.

<UNKNOWN>: In your evidence Brigadier, you testified tothe effect that whilst when you were on the scene a certain memberof the Cabinet was seen walking towards you and you, no that isnot yourself that is another applicant.   I withdraw that questionMr Chairman, sorry for that.   Brigadier if you can just clarifyon this, let's start it this way is it not so that Kwandabele...(endof side 1)...

ANSWER: They did have a Government, there would havebeen a certain degree of self-government with the assistance ofthe South African Government.

<UNKNOWN>: Wouldn't you say that if there was anythingdone, assuming that Mbkhoto was still on the side of the KwandabeleGovernment, if Mbkhoto had gone out to kill and main other membersof political organisations, for example ANC or PAC, they wouldbe doing that in order to foster the
2b political /...
MR MPSHE 580 J H CRONJE
political life in Kwandabele, would you agree with that?

ANSWER: I don't understand the question, could you repeatthe question please?

<UNKNOWN>: Let's suppose that Mbkhoto was still theresupporting the Kwandabele Government and if they had gone outto kill or to act against say members of the ANC within Kwandabele,they would be doing that with the aim of fostering the politicallife and the stability of the Kwandabele Government.   Would thatbe correct?

ANSWER: I still don't understand the question.

<UNKNOWN>: I will put it the other way.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Perhaps I can be of assistance and doit in Afrikaans if you would allow me?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I will have no problem with that.
QUESTION (by Mr Du Plessis):: Brigadier, the effect ofthe question is that if the Mbkhoto didn't turn off the road,if they continued to support the Kwandabele Government and ifthey were then to go out and act against ANC activists, then infact they would have had and maintained the Kwandabele Government,is that the case?

ANSWER: That is the case.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, if that is the case for whom wereyou precisely acting and for whose political objective were youacting?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman, the question flowing fromthis, my learned friend says if that was the case, but the evidencewasn't that that was the case, it was a question on a supposition.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you put a proposition to him,in other words you put to him that if members of Mbkhoto
2b themselves /...
MR MPSHE 581 J H CRONJE
themselves, as part of their own agenda, attacked ANC supportersand eliminated them, would that not advance the cause of the SouthAfrican Government.   Was that not the purpose of your question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That was the purpose of the question Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well flowing out of that, I can't imagine himsaying no to that.   Do you understand the question as I haveput it?   If Mbkhoto, for reasons of their own, attacked ANC supportersand eliminated them that would be in the interest of the SouthAfrican Government would it not?

ANSWER: Yes it would in addition have done so.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman just a little bit of a correction,with respect, that would be in the interests of the KwandabeleGovernment not the South African.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I put to him that it would be in the interestof the South African Government.   If you want to know whetherit would be in the interest of the Kwandabele Government, putit to him.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Would the behaviour, the activities of theMbkhoto have been in the interests of the Kwandabele Government?

ANSWER: If they did what, if they killed ANC activists,yes it would have.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, are you a member of any politicalorganisation or party?

ANSWER: I have never been a member, I did vote for theNational Party, I no longer vote for them.

<UNKNOWN>: At that time did you support the policies ofthe
2b National /...
MR MPSHE 582 J H CRONJE
National Party?

ANSWER: Certainly.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you believe what the National Party waspreaching then?

ANSWER: Certainly.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, between the ANC and Mbkhoto in thearea, which one was the most powerful and more problematic?

ANSWER: This is difficult to say, I think it would havebeen the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: ...then at the time in the Kwandabele Government?

ANSWER: I'm not sure whether the Kwandabele Governmentdid anything against the ANC, but the South African Governmentdid have a military presence and a very strong police presencewith the exact intention of (indistinct) the acts of the ANC.