Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-05-03

MS MTANGA: Can you further give us the background up until the time you identified the body of the deceased, how you brother went missing and where you worked and what he was doing with the Transkei Defence Force?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: My brother and I were soldiers at Umtata.  He had joined before I did.  In 1993 there was a traditional ceremony was supposed to be performed at home and thereafter I went on leave, so that when this ceremony was over my brother would also go on leave.  It was a circumcision ceremony and when the boys arrived and he was also supposed to come along he did not arrive, so I went to work to check what had happened to him.  On my arrival nobody gave me a straight answer as to what had happened to him.  I am not quite sure of the dates.
	I then went to the head office where a certain colleague, by the name of Warrant Officer Cheke, asked me if I was brave so that he could tell me what had happened to my brother.  He then told me that he was at a mortuary and they were not giving me full details but they told me that he had gone out to look for a stolen vehicle in Durban, a certain kombi.  
	After I had identified the body at the mortuary I went back home to report what had happened.  When we have a ritual ceremony it is our culture that we do not play the radio, so we did not even hear on the radio what was going on, we only heard rumours from other people.
	When the body was supposed to be collected from the mortuary at Umtata we discovered that his skull was loose, the brain had been removed and also that his testicles were removed.  With regards to his private parts it was something that was discussed only amongst the men.  We did not inform the women.
	I think that is all.

MS MTANGA: You did not notice any other part of his body missing besides the brain and the private parts.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Because of the injuries on his body I thought that maybe he had sustained some when the post mortem was being performed on him.

MS MTANGA: Did he have any wounds on his head besides the bullet wounds that have been indicated by the applicant.

MR LAX: Just hang on a second.  The witness is indicating some discomfort, are these headphones bothering you?  Is it too loud?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I cannot hear properly.

MR LAX: Maybe if you could must move it away from that water in front of you.  The water usually blocks the signal.

MR LAX: Is that better?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: No.

MR LAX: Can you hear us now better?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I was just explaining about there were other injuries on his body but I thought they might have been sustained during the post mortem, but his entire body was hacked, even on his skull.  It appeared to me as if even though he was shot, it was as if you shot somebody from below the chin the bullet would come out at a spot that it -at another spot, not in the very same spot that it entered.
	I think he was stabbed even though he had a gunshot wound but he also had other stab wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think he had a gunshot wound?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I do not think that he was shot, but from the way that the skull was removed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have numerous what could have been stab wounds all over his body, the front of his chest?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes there were numerous.

MS MTANGA: Did you notice any bullet wound on his head?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: No, I did not notice.

MS MTANGA: Is there any other matter that you would like to bring to the attention of the Committee about the death of your brother?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I would just like to ask something from the applicant if the Committee allows.

MS MTANGA: Alright.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Mr Mbhele, do you know that the person you killed is also Mbhele?

MR MBHELE: No I did not.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: If you want forgiveness and you killed your own family who shall forgive you because even the ones who survived him you may also kill them?

MR MBHELE: That is not true, Sir, the situation at that time is very different from what the situation is today.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: When you killed them how many were you?

MR MBHELE: There were two of us.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Were they armed?

MR MBHELE: It was myself and Deyeswe.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Were they armed?

MR MBHELE: Yes they had a Z88.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: What were you doing there, was it a roadblock?

MR MBHELE: We stopped any vehicle that approached.  It was a blue van that first approached and we did not do anything to the occupants of that van, and then that Sprinter approached after the van.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I do not think we have anything to discuss.  There is nothing I can forgive you for because you have not told the truth.

MR MBHELE: How do you mean?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: You have not told the truth.  There's orphans that he left, what have you to say about them?  He even had a baby, what was he supposed to live on?  Who was supposed to support him?  Because his children must also go to school.

MR MBHELE: I don't know if I would be able to respond to that question.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: My question is, what about the children who are now orphans when you are seeking amnesty?

MR MBHELE: That is a difficult question.  It is difficult to respond to that question because this happened because of the political situation.  That is how it happened.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: The brain and the testicles, what happened to them?

MR MBHELE: If you were present at the Supreme Court ...(intervention)

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I am asking where are those parts?

MR MBHELE: I do not know about that.  Even the doctor who performed the post mortem did not indicate that there were parts missing. If you were present at the Supreme Court you would have heard about this.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: This was all done covertly.  We only heard about it in Pietermaritzburg.

MR MBHELE: I do not think that there was anything that happened covertly at the Supreme Court.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I am only referring to the TRC process which we heard about only in Pietermaritzburg.  It was the first time we heard about it.

MR MBHELE: When these soldiers were killed the attacks on IFP people stopped.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Do you know that soldiers are not affiliated to any political organisation, do you know that?

MR MBHELE: Transkei soldiers were affiliated because they were under General Holomisa who was an ANC member.
	As a soldier you do not align yourself to any political organisation, you are under the government.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: That is how soldiers conduct themselves.

MR MBHELE: Was General Holomisa not a soldier because he was also a member of the ANC.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: He only became a member of the ANC after leaving the army, that is when he joined politics.

MR MBHELE: When he was still referred to as General Holomisa in the Transkei was he not a soldier?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Today he's still referred to as a General.

MR MBHELE: That is news to me.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: That he's a General?

MR MBHELE: It is news to me that he was not affiliated to any political organisation at the time.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I have finished.

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Chairman may I cross-examine this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Lekata it is very important.  You say the applicant is not telling the truth about what happened to your brother.  Now if you know what the truth is then I think you must tell us.  Did the applicant kill him for some other reason that you know about other than a political one?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: If he had killed him for political reasons, what I know is that if you capture someone in a foreign country you do not kill them.  I will make you an example of Kosovo.  These three American soldiers who were captured they were not killed.