Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

MS M MOLETE: Well I cannot comment on that one, I do not know.

MS TANZER: Well what was the reason given why you were being given R150?  What were you told was the reason for that money being handed over to you?

MS M MOLETE: We were not told, we only knew that was our pocket money.  We would get the money at the office.

MS TANZER: So whenever you mention ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which office?

MS M MOLETE: Except the one that we were given by Mr Strydom, we were given R10 for food and we would sign some forms.

MS TANZER: Whenever you mention the white men attacking you, in your statements, were you concealing the fact that you knew that they were actually policemen?

MS M MOLETE: I did not know whether it was a police officer or a white person because I only saw a person who came to assault or attack me.

MS TANZER: So how do you know there were policemen attacking you on that night in question?

MS M MOLETE: I have never talked of a police, I only talked of a white person, and that was stated in Pretoria.

MS TANZER: Were you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: All you saw were these white men who came tot he house where you were.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know whether they were policemen or not?

MS M MOLETE: That is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: When you heard the evidence of Mr Nosenga - were you present when Mr Nosenga gave evidence?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Did it become clear to you from his evidence that those white men were in fact policemen?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.  Did Mr Nosenga testify that the white men that she saw were policemen?

MS TANZER: No, Mr Nosenga testified that the white men that attacked that night were policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS TANZER: My question is, from Nosenga's evidence - well did you hear Mr Nosenga when he gave testimony?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Did you make the deduction from his testimony, that the white men that attacked you were actually policemen, members of the South African Police Force?

CHAIRPERSON: When did she say that?

MS TANZER: Mr Chair, she said that white men attacked her.  I'm asking ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But when did she make the deduction that these men were white policemen, were policemen?

MS TANZER: I'm not putting to her, I'm asking her a question whether she made a deduction of that nature.  I'm not putting to her that she made the deduction, I'm asking a question whether such a deduction was made.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS M MOLETE: When Mr Nosenga gave his testimony it has been a long time since I've made my statement.

MS TANZER: Did you want to give evidence at this criminal trial?

MS M MOLETE: No, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: Why not?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know, I was never summoned to give testimony at that criminal trial.  I would not know.

MS TANZER: But did you want give evidence, did you want to testify to what you witnessed that night?

MS M MOLETE: I wanted to according to how they expected me to and I wanted to tell what I knew.

MS TANZER: Did anyone amongst you refuse to take the R150 that was being offered?

MS M MOLETE: I was the first one because I was very furious as we were being - he talked to us in a very harsh manner, but I ultimately took the money.

MS TANZER: Were you informed from where this money was coming from?

MS M MOLETE: No, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR DA SILVA: Mrs Molete, I want to clarify a number of aspects with you.  I understood your evidence to be that on your version the armed vehicle you saw was a police vehicle, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, the Hippo.  Are you referring to the Hippo?

MR DA SILVA: Yes, I'm talking ...(intervention)

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Sir.

MR DA SILVA: On your version the Hippo was a police Hippo, is that right?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, Sir, that is so.

MR DA SILVA: Alright.  Then Ms Tanzer asked you a question just now, it was something along the lines that the - with reference to the camouflage uniforms that you saw, she asked you: "Was this civilian clothing, military clothing or police clothing?"  You didn't really answer that question, could you answer that question please.

CHAIRPERSON: She answered.  She answered the question.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, she said she cannot distinguish between police and military vehicles.  That was her answer.  She didn't answer whether it was civilian clothing.  She didn't answer the question, with respect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because my note says here
"I have often seen people wearing this uniform."

MR DA SILVA: I'll leave it there, Mr Chairman, I'll put the question in a different way.
	Is it correct that you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But did you want her to deal specifically with the question whether or not this was a civilian?

MR DA SILVA: Yes, that's the question that I wish to put.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Would you answer the question please.

MS M MOLETE: I did answer that question, Mr da Silva, that I usually see this at the township.  I never mentioned whether it was the military or the police uniform, I said I would see these people wearing these things at the township.

MR DA SILVA: Can I ask you this, in June 1992, are you saying that the camouflage uniform that you saw or the camouflage clothes that you saw, you couldn't distinguish whether it was military or police uniform?  Is that what your evidence is?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know the military clothing or the police clothing, I say the camouflage that they wore on that day I would see it at the location and people wearing such.

MR DA SILVA: The camouflage uniform that you see predominantly, what colour was it?  Was it predominantly green or predominantly brown or predominantly grey?

MS M MOLETE: It was more green and more brown, brownish.

MR DA SILVA: Now when you say you can't distinguish between military uniform and police uniform, are you saying you don't know the difference?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Sir.

MR DA SILVA: And if I put it to you that the military personnel at that stage did not wear camouflage uniform, you would not dispute that would you?

MS M MOLETE: It is because I do not know the military uniform and the police uniform.  I usually see them at the location.

MR DA SILVA: The point that I'm making Mrs Molete, is if you don't know the difference, and I put it to you that the military did not wear camouflaged uniform, you won't be able to dispute that.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct there.

MR DA SILVA: My last aspect I want to clarify, you spoke about a Mr Strydom, yesterday did you see that Mr Strydom in this hall?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I did.

MR DA SILVA: Where did you see him?

MS M MOLETE: Where the gentleman is seated next to Ms Tanzer.

MR DA SILVA: Are you saying that Advocate Rean Strydom, who has been a practising advocate for 18 years, offered you R150, is that what you're saying?

MS M MOLETE: He gave us R150 each.  I was not the only one who received that R150, and it is not the first time that I see Mr Strydom here.  I know him.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

COUNSEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY COUNSEL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

COUNSEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	I just want to put something to you, Mrs Molete.  I'm acting on behalf of Mr Greeff and Mr Tshaka and I want to put it to you that they were not involved in the Boipatong massacre in 1992, June 1992.

MS M MOLETE: I do not know those people, Sir.

MR BOTHA: I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you've taken instructions now?

MR LOWIES: No, Chairman, I could not.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?