Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now take us through, on the day of the incident, how many were you, how were you armed and where did you get the weapons?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: On the day of the operation we were eight.
We had two AK47's, two revolvers and one pistol.  We driving three cars, the other one was a Chevrolet and two Fords, the other one was a bakkie and the other one was a sedan.  That was on the 15th July 1991.  We went to Stilfontein, our aim was to go there and repossess the money.
	We arrived there early in the morning, we waited there for the Fidelity Guard bakkie.  When it arrived we advanced and we told them to stand still.  They didn't do that and we started shooting and thereafter we also shot at them, one person was killed and the other one was injured.  We took the money, we put it into the bakkie, I was driving that bakkie and then from there, on our way I saw a white car flickering to us.  I didn't stop and then we advanced the cul de sac and I stopped there.  The other cars which were following me started shooting at that car.  I drove through the fence and then I ran away from the car.  I got injured while I was driving through the fence and I was arrested and taken to the police station and then from the police station I was taken to Sebong Hospital.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Malefane, you already told the Committee the four of you went to do the reconnaissance but on the day in question you were eight, you have not told the Committee what was the names of the other four, extra four, the eight.  You have told us about four people, now the eight is now four you have not told the Committee of their names?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That's Eric Williams, David Nene, Johannes Mkhizi, Aaron Lekarapa.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry just - what was Aaron's second name please?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That's Lekarapa.  L-e-k-a-r-a-p-a.
ADV. BOSMAN: Could you just give us Mkhizi's first name please?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Johannes.
ADV. BOSMAN: Johannes.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That's Johannes Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Nene's name was it?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: David.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Malefane, you have told the Committee what happened and how did you plan and how did you carry out the operation at Stilfontein.  Now you are appearing before the Committee, you are asking the Committee - you are applying for amnesty.  Can you tell the Committee the reason why they should grant you amnesty for this operation?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I'm applying for amnesty because the money that we went to repossess was going to be used to help the task force.  It was going to be used for political purposes to train the task force s that we could disturb the councillors of the then government, that is why I'm asking for amnesty because this money was going to be used for the training of the task force.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairperson, no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Malefane, if I heard you correctly, in your evidence in chief you spoke or make mention of children that you saw in Lesotho and decided to go and get money for them, is that correct?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What children are these?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Those were the youth who crossed over to Lesotho.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know them?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I knew them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So when you crossed back out of Lesotho back into the country you were coming to get money to go and assist the youth in Lesotho, am I correct?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now how did you hope to get the money to help the youth with?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I was going to get this money at all costs, I would use all the means to help me to get that money.  Either to go and ask money from my parents are to go and repossess it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it correct then that this operation was intended to make you obtain to go back to Lesotho and help the youth there?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I didn't undertake any operation then, that was in 1979.  I didn't undertake any operation on my way back to South Africa.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this operation one of the means you were going to employ to get money for the children?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Are you talking about this operation?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, the Stilfontein operation, was it was one of the means to aid the children?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So the money you were going to get from this operation was to be given to Lesotho children, the youth, let's call them youth?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No it was not going to be help these youth in Lesotho.  The money that we got from this operation was going to be given to be given Mabena because he asked me for money so that he could go and train the task force in Transkei, that is the operation we are talking about here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You say you met Mabena in 1990 at Comrade Mothopeng's welcome.  For how long had you known Mabena?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was the first time that I met Mabena at that welcome party.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You met him there for the first time and then he asked you for money to go to the Transkei?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he know that you were capable of getting money or did he suspect that you have money to give to anybody who needed?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: We were introduced to one another and we held some discussions and from then he knew what I was doing at that time.  That is why he came to me because he knew of my activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mpshe.  Mr Malefane, what position did Mr Mabena hold, who was he?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was a member of APLA.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he in the leadership of APLA?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was a soldier.  He was just a soldier there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right, now before meeting Mabena and before this operation had you carried out other repossession operations before?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which ones?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: In 1979 I carried out an operation, I was also arrested after that operation and I was sentenced to six years imprisonment and thereafter I escaped from jail and went to Lesotho.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, in this 1979 operation was money involved?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How much was it?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I don't remember well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in your discussion with Mabena did you tell him that you are capable of getting money?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I told Mabena my ability to repair cars and my ability to help the youth in Lesotho, so I told him that if he needs some help he can come to me then I'll be able to help him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And in the help that you promised him, you said you could get him money or did you say you could repair cars for him?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Any kind of help, either to repair a car or money, I would help him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.
ADV. BOSMAN: Excuse me Mr Mpshe, I just want to clear up something here.  Did you say that you told him of your ability to obtain cars or to repair cars, I'm not sure if I have it right there?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I told him about my ability to repair the cars.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you hold any position of leadership in the PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No I did not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you a full member?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You had a membership card?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: In 1979 we didn't have membership cards.