Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR J VAN ZYL: I think at that time I was just so motivated that I was prepared to do anything for this country.  Which in retrospect was misplaced, but I have no other real explanation as that.

CHAIRPERSON: Would these killings have occurred without you being told or ordered to do so?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Your application indicates that you committed these crimes as a result of being ordered to do so, by Colonel Snyman, Lieutenant Colonel van Rensburg and Major du Plessis.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the truth?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's the truth, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You were at liberty to refuse to do so.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not like to do it.  Why did you proceed with those orders?

MR J VAN ZYL: Because I agreed that it was probably the only way that we saw at the time to try and stabilise this area.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened had you refused?

MR J VAN ZYL: Probably nothing much, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you, to this stage, met with the family of the deceased?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I have not Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to do so?

MR J VAN ZYL: I have  been advised not to do so until the final hearings or the final results of this application is over, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you intend to do so, irrespective of the results?

MR J VAN ZYL: I have no objection...

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not the question.  Do you intend to talk the families, presumably to say you are sorry, irrespective of the outcome of the application?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr  Chairman, I do not know what my legal position would be, if I did that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you haven't decided whether to do so, or not.

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know if there is any wish from their side to speak to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you were given a job of devising this plan which you interpreted as killing Mr Goniwe and the others.
	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this.  As I understand your evidence, this was a matter of urgency, because there was nothing else that could be done about the situation, it was beyond control in this area?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why were these people killed in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth and not Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman this is where most of the vigilante attacks were on UDF representatives and this was also the area that was better known to myself and  my colleagues that we could act in, knowing where it was relatively remote and safe, if one could say that.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, your branch had access to, I think, a farmhouse in the vicinity of Cradock at that time, is that not so?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you wanted privacy and all that goes with activities such as this, couldn't it have been done there?

MR J VAN ZYL: I suppose it could, but that would not go along with the instruction to do it in this way, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what concerned me is that I am told, or we are told, that Mr Goniwe in particular was seen as responsible for all this unrest in the area.  But yet you wait for him to come to Port Elizabeth at some uncertain time, to put this whole plan into operation.
	You were informed that morning that he was in the vicinity, not so?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what concerns me is that if it was such an urgent matter, why didn't you people go to Cradock and do the deed in whatever manner you chose?

MR J VAN ZYL: Because it was an unknown area there than Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That's why I mentioned that farmhouse.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, it was not possible to just pick him up openly and take him to the farmhouse.  We had to wait for the right moment to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you mentioned something about vigilante activity occurring more in this Port Elizabeth area than in Cradock.
	What did you mean by that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Because this was the area where I worked, where I had experience and where I had attended numerous incidents of murders that had occurred in this way, Mr Chairman, because the population is just so much bigger.  There were more incidents in this area.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly.  That would have suited the purposes of  the Security Police?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: To create havoc amongst black people.  Sort of killing two birds with one stone?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not at all.  It was supposed to be the cover for our operation, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were aware of what was happening at the time?

MR J VAN ZYL: Very much so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you.