Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say, Chairman.  My argument is the following; I have no witness to say that he took a firearm, he didn't take one, but on the probabilities he's not telling the truth.  Those are my instructions.  And I'm canvassing the probabilities with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chair.
	I still want to know from you in your mind, besides Khosa, who gave the instruction? - the name of a person, if you could supply us with that name.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have stated before that I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: It was not Mr Vanana Zulu, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, as the siren sounded and we were informed when we arrived at the stadium that we were going to attack, I cannot commit myself and say it was Prince Vanana Zulu.

MR LOWIES: So if I put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu did not give the instruction, you will not argue with me because you can't remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I'm saying is I cannot say who gave the instruction because there were several Induna there.  I cannot name one person.

MR LOWIES: You can't even recall whether Vanana Zulu was there.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were several Indunas there, I was not in a position to check whether Prince Zulu was present.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.  So if I put it to you as a fact that he was not present, you cannot dispute it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I'm saying is that I do not know.

MR LOWIES: You see again, at page 3, paragraph 10 of Exhibit A, you mention the following: State political object sought to be achieved
"We were instructed by Mr Zulu, who was the head of the IFP at Madala Hostel, Vanderbijlpark, to destroy ANC comrades.  He armed us with AK47's and pump-guns.  Details attached herein."
Is this correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will you please explain which incident you are referring to, the Sebokeng or Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: Well let's hear, let's break them up.  In the Sebokeng, were you instructed by Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: But definitely not in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I've stated before, with reference to Boipatong, I cannot name Prince Zulu as the person who instructed us because there were several Indunas.

MR LOWIES: And you entered Boipatong, not with an arm that Vanana Zulu supplied to you on a prior occasion or at any stage, but with one that you picked up there in the stadium, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the firearms were brought by Darkie Chonco.  I took a firearm that was brought to us by Darkie Chonco.  I took a firearm from the ground.

MR LOWIES: And again, Sir, I want to put it to you that in your first application you never mentioned Darkie Chonco.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did - I don't know about that, but I did mention that it was Darkie Chonco who brought the firearms along.

MR LOWIES: Is it correct, Sir, that the ANC viewed the police as the enemy in those days?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated.

MR LOWIES: Is it correct that the ANC views the police as the enemy in those days?

MS TANZER: Objection.  How would he know what the ANC viewed, he said he was a member of the IFP and before that he was apolitical.

CHAIRPERSON: Let the witness tell us.  Do you know or don't you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know because I was not a member of the ANC, how am I supposed to know?

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement, page 4, the second last sentence reads as follows
"The IFP was also assisted by senior South African Police officers, therefore I considered this as a political conflict because the ANC viewed the SAP as the enemy."
Now how can you say this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know about that.  It is true that Inkatha was being assisted by the police.  I don't know about the ANC, I was not a member of the ANC, therefore I cannot respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel is doing, he's asking you about a statement which appears in the application for amnesty in which you state that, you state amongst other things, that the ANC viewed the SAP as an enemy.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  That the ANC viewed the police as an enemy I dispute, because I was not a member of the ANC.  I cannot therefore say that the ANC viewed them as an enemy.  No, I don't know.  The person who was interpreting for me is Sesotho-speaking, I therefore cannot say how this came into being part of the statement.

MR LOWIES: So your version is you deny the correctness of this portion of your statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have just indicated that I don't know anything about this ANC statement or ANC thing.  I've just indicated that it was difficult to communicate because the person who was interpreting was Sesotho-speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Interpreting for you?  What language were you speaking to this person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was speaking IsiZulu and IsiZulu was not quite clear, so I'm therefore saying that is not true that I said the ANC saw the police as the enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position that the person who was interpreting for you was not fluent in Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he was not fluent in IsiZulu.

MR LOWIES: Who was this person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It's a police, I don't know his name.

MR LOWIES: Now you have to supply particulars when making an application for amnesty, in terms of the documentation, whether you benefited in any way financially or otherwise.  No, I would not like my learned friend to show him the specific place at this stage, Chairman, could I just request through you that it does not happen?

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: My learned friend, Ms Tanzer, indicates to him certain places on the document.  I would request that it's not done.  Not that I'm accusing her of anything, but it would not be practical.

CHAIRPERSON: But it's, I mean whenever you refer to the document, Ms Tanzer has been helping to point out the specific place.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say, but at this stage I would prefer her not to do so, I will indicate when it's necessary.  I'm not trying to get into an argument with her, I think it was bona fides, but I would prefer not at this stage.
	Mr Nosenga, did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise from the acts that you committed, on your version, with a political objective?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not benefit financially, I did this in the name of the IFP.  I did not receive any money.

MR LOWIES: Goods, gifts, rewards?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I did not benefit in any way, I did this in the name of the IFP and I did not gain financially or in any way myself as a person.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Lowies, may I ask the question, did the IFP benefit?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I wouldn't tell a lie, I don't know.

MR SIBANYONI: From out of your actions, out of your conduct - you said you were doing this in the name of the IFP, my question was, out of your conduct did the IFP benefit either financially or in goods or property?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't want to tell a lie, Sir, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: Have you ever met - did you ever meet Mr Eugene Terre'blanche?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only see him on television.

MR LOWIES: Did you have anything to do with the AWB?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Have you ever had contact with members of the AWB, you personally?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I personally have no connection with the AWB.

MR LOWIES: Have you ever seen members of the AWB in person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I wouldn't say I did see them.