Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

MR RAUTENBACH: Don't you recall - and I just want to ask you at this stage because it may be a bit premature to put it to you before Steyn's evidence, but I just want to ask you, does the name Deon Els ring a bell?  Did you mention the name of Deon Els to him, as a possible suspect?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: It doesn't ring a bell with me.  I'm not denying it, I'm just saying it doesn't ring with me.

MR RAUTENBACH: So what you're saying to me is it doesn't ring a bell but you're not denying,  you're actually saying to me there's a possibility that you might have mentioned the name of Deon Els, or aren't you saying that?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I don't think I - I don't know, I don't think I could have, the name doesn't ring a bell with me, so I don't ...

MR RAUTENBACH: Now at that stage you say to us now that you told him that you thought it was the Security Branch, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: Is that right?  That's what you told Steyn.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I'm actually more under the impression it was the first meeting that we had in the January where I said that to him.

MR RAUTENBACH: But in any event, just to get back to a previous answer of yours, not in one of your meetings with him, despite having suspected the Security Branch, did you tell him of this conversation that Janine had three days before she was murdered?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I definitely didn't.  By that time I'd been very, very firmly warned not to mention the Security Branch, and especially after the conversation that I had with him where I did implicate the Security Branch, I was warned in very strong terms not to ever mention them again and not to involve them in my discussions with any of the police.

MR RAUTENBACH: But when were you so warned?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry?

MR RAUTENBACH: When were you so warned not to mention the Security Branch?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: When I discussed, our conversations or my conversations with Detective Steyn, my brother in no uncertain terms told me not to ever mention the Security Branch, not to drag them into anything and not to drag any names into it.

MR RAUTENBACH: And what about, Mrs White, the conversation?  Do you say that's the reason why you didn't mention the conversation?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I was then told to keep quiet about that conversation as well.

MR RAUTENBACH: But you knew that Steyn at that stage was the investigating officer, that he needed all information to his disposal to solve this murder, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: Because your brother told you not to mention it, you didn't mention it?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I'd been threatened, I'd had my house broken into, I'd been followed, I'd had lots of things done to me.  I really was not going to get myself involved after that with anything where I could possibly have harm done to myself, my family, my brother, from people that I didn't even know or didn't even know what they could do to me.  When people can invade your house without, with switching alarm systems off and things like that, it doesn't make life easy for you and you start thinking twice about doing things and saying things that could harm you.

MR RAUTENBACH: Let's just get back to my question.  My question is this, your brother told you not to mention anything about the Security Police and you obliged, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I had to oblige.

MR RAUTENBACH: Why had to oblige?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Because I was being thoroughly intimidated.

MR RAUTENBACH: By whom, by the two house break-ins?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Not only the house break-ins, I had ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: What else?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I had people following me all the time, I had phone calls coming through too on my phone call, threatening, threatening phone calls.  Detective Steyn is fully aware of those things, I made those things very known right from the beginning.  I was very angry about it.  I've even written to the Attorney-General about things like this.  So it's not something that I'm just making up or coming out with at the moment.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mrs White, did you claim at a previous occasion when this hearing took place in Pretoria, did you claim that people were following you there as well?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I did.  I didn't say somebody followed me, I said I'd had threatening, I'd had phone calls in the middle of the night and early in the morning, unusual phone calls that doesn't normally happened, and I had somebody shooting at my car.

MR RAUTENBACH: Some what?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I had somebody shooting at my car.

MR RAUTENBACH: Shooting at you car, you had phone calls, what was the phone calls about, what were they about?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: There was nobody on the other end of the phone.

MR RAUTENBACH: Nobody on the other end?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Nobody on the other end of the phone calls.

MR RAUTENBACH: And Mrs White, to get back to the original question.  You knew that Steyn tried his best to find the culprit in this matter, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I did not believe he was trying his best, I believed he was gunning for my brother and only for my brother.

MR RAUTENBACH: I suppose that belief of yours must have changed since your, you became aware that your brother in fact was responsible for killing his wife.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Very much so, I was very angry about it when I heard it the first time, when my brother put his, or I heard he was putting in an amnesty application for it.

MR RAUTENBACH: So to get back to it, because of those, because you felt threatened and because your brother told you, you decided not to give that information to the investigating officer?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well yes, that is exactly why I didn't at the time.

MR RAUTENBACH: Is there not another reason why you would not have mentioned it to him?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, no other reason.

MR RAUTENBACH: Because we know you didn't mention it with Beyleveld or with anyone during December or during January.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No.

MR RAUTENBACH: When you became aware, Mrs White, to your shock, that your brother is a suspect, you couldn't afford or you wouldn't tell them anything about that conversation, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry?  When I became aware that my brother was a suspect?

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.  Am I correct if I say that if you told them about that conversation, your brother is a suspect and you told them about the conversation that took place, that she is going to sink the Security Branch and she wants him to leave the Security Branch, if you gave them that information at that time, it would have been an important piece of evidence for Steyn in his investigation?  Do you agree with me?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I don't agree with you.

MR RAUTENBACH: Why not?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: For the simple reason that I never ever believed that my brother had done it, and I never believed that he was up in Johannesburg to do it, my belief all the time was that my brother was in Natal.  I fetched him that Saturday morning and I never for one moment believed that my brother had left Natal to go up to Johannesburg.  As far as I knew, there were people that were with my brother until 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock, I can't remember the exact times that night.  I fetched him that morning and I really thought, and I thought all along that they were just being - what's the word, sort of pedantic in going after my brother.  I never for one minute believed that it was necessary to try and even cover him or save him because I didn't believe he needed saving or covering.

MR RAUTENBACH: Let's leave alone your beliefs for a moment.  That was one, there was a couple of occasions which you had the opportunity to tell him about that but you didn't.  You say you wouldn't tell him about that because you didn't believe that your brother was guilty, correct?  Am I right?