Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: Okay.  Change the description of the person who killed in the execution of his duty furthering the aims of the African National Congress in his effort to overthrow the apartheid regime.  If that person killed somebody and the police were after that person, would you disagree with me if I were to say that that person left the country for political reasons?   The murder is a political murder and he leaves the country for a political reason.  Is that correct?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR JOSEPH: You would agree with me?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Identify with any type of precision any type of political activity you were engaged in which would have interested the police in arresting you, other than the kidnapping of these people or the murder of Stompie, and please do me this favour, if you do not understand my question ask me now, otherwise answer the question precisely.   What activity were you engaged in of a political nature other than the charges with which you were charged and in respect of which you skipped bail, which you describe as activities which gave rise to a political reason for you to leave the country.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, it's simple to identify the activities then.  Personally as I was active and remember that it was a joint(?) - the Inkatha saga whereby the Inkatha were killing people, of which I was actively involved in fighting and mobilising the youth to fight back the Inkatha people, of which on that stage I was targeted as the instigator, as the person who was more powerful to be giving ideas and making sure that the Inkatha doesn't infiltrate our location.  That's where the police came to Inkatha rescue.  That's where I left the country.

MR JOSEPH: I asked you to give the answer with a degree of precision.  What activity were you engaged in?  Did you murder anybody?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I didn't murder anybody.

MR JOSEPH: Did you assault anybody?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I didn't assault anybody.

MR JOSEPH: Did you commit any crime?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I didn't commit any crime.

MR JOSEPH: Then what interest would the police have in you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: The interest that they were having, it was because of my influence that I was having to the youth to fight back the Inkatha people.

MR JOSEPH: You were encouraging young men to attack Inkatha?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was encouraging young men to fight back their just war.

MR JOSEPH: To engage in physical violence with Inkatha.  You were engaged in that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I once or twice engaged myself, yes, in a physical war with Inkatha.

MR JOSEPH: And when did that take place?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: It was round 1990.  It was round 1990 I can say.

MR JOSEPH: In 1990 you were engaged in that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR JOSEPH: And when did you leave the country?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I left the country 1990 - it was in November.

MR JOSEPH: And when were you engaged in this activity?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was engaged in those activities, I think,  around January downwards.

MR JOSEPH: So look how lucky the police were.   You were engaged in criminal activities that they weren't aware of.  Is that right?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, it is wrong.

MR JOSEPH: Is it wrong?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR JOSEPH: And where did these activities take place?   What place?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In Soweto, sir.

MR JOSEPH: The address.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't say the address because the activities were happening around Soweto.  Outside the houses.

MR JOSEPH: And who did you assault?  Or who was assaulted?   A name.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Nobody I did assault.

MR JOSEPH: The people you were encouraging, who did they assault?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: They fought back with Inkatha people.   I don't know their names or their surnames.

MR JOSEPH: You don't know where the activity took place, is that correct?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm saying I know the activities took place around Soweto.  One place that I can make mention of it is Umzimhlope, Dube and other nearby hostels.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joseph, excuse me.  Thank you very much.  You had said you don't have - I want to remind you that I have given you warning that you may be recalled.  Thank you very much. Step down.   We now call Dr Frank Chikane.

MR VALLY: Sorry, Arch, could be just have a short break.  We have just got this statement and we just want to quickly read it - from the Crisis Committee.  We didn't have it before.  We need a 10/15 minute break.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Let's take a break until half past four.
HEARING ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Order! Thank you very much. Dear friends, we welcome you.  We welcome you as people who were very prominent in the days when the struggle was hot, and we thank God that you survived to see the fruits of your labours and the labours of other people.   In a way of course we wish that it was on a different kind of mission that you would be here, but you are here because we hope that you will assist us in arriving at the truth about the matters that are before us.  It'll be invidious to isolate any of you but maybe it will be a good thing just to speak of the one person who tries to make this thing your token white.  Beyers, you don't know what you mean to very, very many people in this land.  You have been a tremendous gift to us, and God has spared you to see the fruits of your contribution, your courage.  I mean, all these people and others have been very courageous but it needed a special kind of courage for an Afrikaner, and what is so wonderful about the God we serve is the vindication that has come to you and to Ilse and to your family.  And on behalf of all of us, we really just want to say thank you to God for you.  And that goes also for all of you.  I suspect that you are going to speak in English, but you are free to speak in any of the 11 languages.  No, no, no, Sidney, I see you nodding too vehemently.  Don't speak in that language today.  (Laughter).   We welcome you because we know that all of you have very, very tight schedules, and so without much ado I'll ask Yasmin Sooka to administer the oath.

BEYERS NAUDE: (sworn in)

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: (sworn in)

FRANK CHIKANE: (sworn in)

AUBREY MOKOENA: (sworn in)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine will lead you until Hanif comes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  We have received a statement.  I'm not sure who is going to speak to that statement.  I wonder if you would indicate that.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson, we have agreed that because this is collective I will introduce the submission, present aspects of it, and because different aspects were dealt with by various people in the committee, some of them will have the opportunity to elaborate on some of the issues.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Dr Chikane.  Would you then start  and then when you have completed your section, perhaps you would indicate to me who will follow.  Thank you.  Please continue.