Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: (?)

MRS VAN DER WALT: ... organisations such as the ANC and PAC were during the 1990s, were unbanned. Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Now after that date, in your experience and in your, in the course and scope of your work, I would like to ask you of the political climate after these organisations were unbanned.  Firstly, I would like you to refer to articles relating to the PAC, and especially if you can emphasise their financial position during those years, in the period after they were unbanned.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chairperson, I think it is commonly known that after the unbanning of for instance, the PAC, the Communist Party and the ANC, that especially the PAC and ANC's military wings were also unbanned, namely MK and Apla, and that these military wings still continued with operations.
	Now to return to the PAC.  I am referring to an article in the Sunday Times of the 16th of May 1993.  Under the heading "Top ANC officials scandal", and in the second paragraph there is a reference as follows:
"It was disclosed that a number of senior PAC members that refused to hand back properties to the financially strapped organisation, to be sold off to raise funds."
Then in the third column, the penultimate paragraph:
"Meanwhile it has also been established that the PAC's financial position is so precarious that it can hardly pay the salaries of staff, and is unlikely to fight the coming elections."
So dit is die finansiele posisie waarin die PAC hom daardie tyd bevind het.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Dit is dan in Mei, 16 Mei 1993?

UNKNOWN: That was during May 1993 and of course, the run-up to that started with the unbanning of the PAC.
	Now if one asks the question: how did they obtain funds and how did they pay the salaries, because the PAC is still active today in politics.  I refer here to an article in the Star, Star Africa Service, dated the 22nd of January 1992 which preceded this quotation of 1993, it was in a court in Harare -
"Allegations made in court here yesterday, that the PAC raised funds by stealing cars in South Africa and selling them in Zimbabwe."
In other words, things which the man in the street would regard as crime, in this way gained a political undertone and these things were then linked to a political party needing the monies, or liberation organisations needing the finance.
	The climate to which you referred is illustrated by an article or an incident in a Johannesburg magistrate's court in 1993, October 1993, and I refer here to an article in the Citizen of the 27th of October 1993, under the heading -
"'Shoot De Klerk' PAC accused yell in court."
Then it appears from the article that -
"The PAC members were being charged with various charges. One related to a bomb which was found near a well-known Rocky Street night spot, on May 30th, this year."
That was in May 1993 and then they continued in May 1993, this year -
"The three accused at Diepkloof allegedly prepared explosives with nails, screws and bolts allegedly placed in it."
So the spirit was created, this spirit of defiance as against the current dispensation.  Maj-Gen Stadler of the Police, he was head of the security branch at the time, in the Citizen of the 8th of December 1992 quoted him as saying:
"PAC has boosted Apla."
Where he said -
"Police and former Chief of Security and Intelligence, Maj-Genl Herman Stadler believe that the ranks of the Azanian's People Liberation Army - Apla - have swelled considerably since the PAC and ANC were unbanned in February 1990."

MRS VAN DER WALT: And this report regarding Genl Stadler which he wrote, was published before this incident in Johannesburg?

UNKNOWN: Yes, this was in December 1992 and the incident in Johannesburg happened in October 1993, almost a year later. Now you must remember that if there is such a reaction from one particular group in the community, then you immediately have a counter-reaction from the other side.
That is correct.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Now in the same document there is also a photograph, the last one, could you perhaps comment on that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, the photograph is very clear, it has appeared in the Star of the 6th of December 1991, and the caption is
"Giving the salute - PAC members at yesterday's special meeting in Cape Town."
In other words, this photograph a photograph from the 5th of December 1991, and it clearly depicted PAC members and the banner in the background -
"One settler, one bullet."

MRS VAN DER WALT: May I hand this in as EXHIBIT B.
EXHIBIT B HANDED IN

MRS VAN DER WALT: You have testified in relation to the PAC and the climate surrounding the activities, but after the ANC was unbanned in 1990, you have further reports relating to the political climate in that context.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.  The climate created by the ANC did not differ substantially from that created by the PAC, and here I would like to refer to a report in the Citizen, Monday, 1st of June 1992, and the heading
"Mandela warns violence may spread to White areas."
In other words, that can be interpreted as a warning of violence, and other people could perhaps interpret that as seditious, exhorting people to violence.  
	There was another report which preceded this, 28th of June 1990. Mandela was deputy-president of the ANC, he was in America and in Atlanta, in Georgia. He said -
"While the policy of non-violence was good some conditions did not permit this, ANC Deputy President, Mr Nelson Mandela said here."
In Bonn, during a visit three years later, on the 11th of May 1993, he was quoted in the Star -
"ANC leader Nelson Mandela ..."
He was then leader of the ANC -
"ANC leader Nelson Mandela warned German leaders yesterday not to expect a bloodless handover to power in South Africa."
So here we clearly see that there was a warning of possible bloodshed and violence.  (ndistinct - microphone not switched on).
	In 1991 Business Day .... (indistinct - microphone not switched on ...) 
"... code named Operation Prickly Pear.  Intended to eliminate SAP members and establish military training camps in South Africa."
So it was clear that there was still an armed struggle and that military training was still continuing.  That was the climate which the ANC created and it was (indistinct).

MRS VAN DER WALT: Now you have quoted from various South African newspapers and magazines.  But there was also incidents abroad where the climate was further created and strengthened.

UNKNOWN: Ja, wat natuurlik wat veral in die buiteland die aandag getrek het ook was die sogenaamde halsnoermoorde, maar as ons kyk na 'n berig van die Washington Post van 26 November 1991, is daar heeltemal 'n beskrywing en die artikel is geskryf deur David B Ottoway, van Washington Post Foreign Service,l word, die hele sogenaamde "necklace", halsnoermoord word daarso beskrywe. (Onduidelik) duidelik uit, en ek meen dit het die buitelande het dit raakgesien daar, dat heeltemal politieke motiewe daarby betrokke is.  Die berig waarna ek verwys, die eerste kolom, die vierde paragraaf
"It is a technique now employed by at least some members of the African National Congress to deter those who like Mongwan Gelva advocate alternative ways of ending South Africa's system of racial separation."
En dan verderaan haal hulle ook weer die PAC aan, die laaste kolom, die tweede kolom redelik onderaan -
"One slogan of the PAC is peace among the Africans; war against the enemy."
En as 'n mens (onduidelik - mikrofoon nie aangeskakel nie) ... baie bekende slagkreet van daardie tyd "one settler, one bullet", dan weet 'n mens ook in 'n groot mate wie is die "enemy" waarvan hy hierso praat.
	Dan praat hy verder van T-hempies wat by die begrafnis van die betrokke persoon gedra is, waarop staan -
"We are not paper tigers, we are blood tigers."