Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: Let us take an example to illustrate.
	If a person, for arguments sake, was very well known to the security branch, say in Pietersburg, in the Northern Transvaal.  And this person engaged in activities which justified them keeping a personal file on that person.  They would then receive a number from head office, Northern Transvaal that is?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: But is this person surfaced in Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape, would you have a file on him, would you have known what his file number was?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, not at all.  If he focused attention on himself and there were reports about him, then the Eastern Cape would also have given a GL reference until such time as the person was identified by the head office and then there would be a cross reference made.

MR BOOYENS: The filing system in a sub-office, because that is what Cradock was.  It was a sub-office or branch office.  This branch office and the filing reference system, that was obviously not as complete as your own system.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So the mere fact that it was said at Cradock that there was no file for Mr Mhlawuli, did that necessarily mean that there was no file anywhere at a security office?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

MR BOOYENS: Reliance was placed on the fact in exhibit "C", if you could look at that please.  I think it's a telex, telefax message.
	That is the report or message from, and it seems it was sent towards the end of May, 1985.  The JMC apparently decided that Mr Goniwe and Calata should never be re-appointed in the Department of Education.
	Were you at all aware of this?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.  I can't recall that I ever saw this.

MR BOOYENS: As far as your investigation is concerned, the investigation surrounding Mr Goniwe, after you were so instructed.
	What was the focus of that investigation.  Did it deal with administrative details, whether the man was a good teacher, whether he should perhaps be re-appointed or did that not form part of your investigation?

MR J VAN ZYL: I can say that it fell outside of the ambit of my investigation.

MR BOOYENS: If there had been any communication from the JMC or the Secretariat of the State Security Council that presumably would have gone to your commanding officers, and not to yourself.  You were a Captain at the time.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.  If my commanding officers deemed it necessary to channel it to me, they would have done so.

MR BOOYENS: I think there's a bit of uncertainty on something you said.
	You used the words, I think when you were asked questions by the panel, that there had been an informal file for Mr Mhlawuli.  Can you recall that?  I think those were the words you used.

MR J VAN ZYL: The informal file consisted of the information which we had at that stage gathered and which related to the activities of activists which led to acts of violence and the whole situation of unrest.
	It was not an official file, it was simply an operational file with which we worked and kept notes, sometimes hand-written notes in this file based on the information which we received.

MR BOOYENS: Would this file have had a series number?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.  It wasn't a file that was filed at the administrative section of the Security Police.

MR BOOYENS: So in effect, it was just a file with lots of loose paper inside it?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So this file actually existed out side of the system.  It might just as well as been a heap of papers on somebody's desk?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: It was put by my learned friend to you that Cradock was very peaceful.
	Let us look at your own experience.  Did you ever investigate anything in Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And your impression in 1984 and to the middle of '85, what were your impressions about the peaceful state or otherwise of Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: I can't really distinguish the different places from each other now, because I actually served in many rural areas at the time.  But my impression at the time was, and afterwards as well, was that Cradock was just as much a flash point as the other areas, and that the children and the public in general, especially in Lingalitho, were quite mobilised.

MR BOOYENS: You also refer to other rural areas.  Are we talking about the hinterland outside Port Elizabeth.
	Could you from your own experiences just sketch what the situation was  how mobilised were these people?  What was the situation of unrest?

MR J VAN ZYL: Damage had been done to schools and official buildings and homes.  Schools had been burnt down.

MR BOOYENS: You're talking about the whole of the rural area, not just Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: If you look at exhibit "I", it looks like a inter-departmental file or memo.  If one looks at the content, it looks like a file relating to another department, in other words, not police?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: It contains a recommendation on page three thereof, for the temporary appointment of Mr Goniwe.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And it's dated, it seems, 18 June 1985, and signed Nienaber.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: But, on page four, at that stage it was merely a recommendation.
	On page four, it appears that the appointment, if you could perhaps read this handwriting into the record for us it appears there that the Minister hadn't yet decided whether to accept or reject the recommendation.
	Please read that.

MR J VAN ZYL: "The matter is being attended to at the ministry on Friday 26 June 1985.  It was discussed with the Deputy Minister.  No finality has been reached and no particular date was mentioned.  Report was received regarding a burnt out car on 3/07/85.  Report was received with the death of Mr Goniwe and Mr Calata".

MR BOOYENS: Were you at all aware in any way of the recommendations and the opinions in the department regarding the activities of Mr Goniwe and how it would affect, or not affect his re-appointment as a teacher?

MR J VAN ZYL: I can't recall any arguments in favour of his re-appointment.  I don't think I was aware of that.

MR BOOYENS: Your investigation, to put it like that was that aimed at finding out whether the man was suitable for a teaching post, or was it aimed at actually carrying out your instructions as conveyed to you by Mr van Rensburg and then confirmed by Mr Snyman?

MR J VAN ZYL: My instruction was to carry out the last mentioned.

MR BOOYENS: My colleague referred you to a report, it's Mr Bizos I'm referring to, he referred you to a report sent by the Commissioner of Police to the Minister.  Please look at exhibit "Ki", or rather exhibit "K".  Page 4.
	The paragraph which starts  "He had already visited these towns (he is Mr Goniwe)?

MR J VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: The qualification is then stated.  It starts with the word  "It's significant that in most of these towns after Goniwe's visits, there were some incidents of violence".  That sentence.  My inference from what's written here is that he would visit the towns and then there would be acts of violence afterwards.
	Do you have any personal knowledge or experience of that - could you comment on that.  On the correctness or otherwise of what is written here?

MR J VAN ZYL: As I said, in my opinion that was a watered down version of the information we had.  Our information was not fatal evidence in the sense that the evidence would have been able to be led in court.  Because the evidence did not exist at that stage, in these conditions in which we lived at the time, because witnesses refused to testify.
	We had lots of evidence and the evidence corroborated each other, but there were meetings held by Mr Goniwe and company, sometimes after public meetings at which recruitment and fermenting of violence had taken place, which led to these acts of violence and damaging of state property.