Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MR WAGENER: Was it, in other words on this map, shown that you should plant the mines on Mr De Nysschen's farm, which was totally enclosed by game fence, is that what you're saying?

MR NONDULA: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's wanting to know, Mr Nondula, this map, did it have the points marked on the map with a cross or something else, where the mines should be placed?  Here you are with six mines.  Here's the map of the area that you must go, there are six points marked on the map.  You must go to those points and lay the mines.

MR NONDULA: Not necessarily and the maps, they showed only the lay-out of the area and the possible roads that the mines could be laid in.

CHAIRPERSON: So it didn't have the points where the mines ...

MR NONDULA: Not necessarily the points on the map, so the discretion at that stage had to be that of the Commander, the  ...(indistinct) Commander at that stage.

MR WAGENER: You've mentioned it earlier that the policy or the general instructions of your movement, was that the mines should be laid on roads patrolled by the military, right?

MR NONDULA: Exactly.

MR WAGENER: So, when laying these mines, you ignored these instructions.

MR NONDULA: How?

MR WAGENER: Well, I've said that a number of times now.  You laid a mine on a road where there's never been a military vehicle before.  How did that come about?

MR NONDULA: I cannot at this stage testify to the fact that there was no military vehicle that ever passed that area or not, I cannot at this stage, because I did not do the reconnaissance myself and specifically the instructions that were given to us, those are the instructions that we followed.

MR WAGENER: Your group of six, your two friends sitting next to you, were they part of that group?

MR NONDULA: Not at all.

MR WAGENER: Were they part of the other group?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now this Agrippa that you referred to, what is he real name?

MR NONDULA: I don't know his real name.

MR WAGENER: I put it to you that you're lying, you know his real name.  What is his real name?  Tell us.

MR NONDULA: I do not know his real name, Sir.

MR WAGENER: What happened to him?

MR NONDULA: He passed away.  He was shot.

MR WAGENER: When?

MR NONDULA: 1987, 86.

MR WAGENER: May I ask your friend to stop helping you give evidence, or else I'm going to request that he sit in another chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, when the witness is giving evidence, he mustn't be assisted in any way.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, are you proud about what you did here?

MR NONDULA: I am.

MR WAGENER: As a soldier?

MR NONDULA: As a soldier, yes I am.

MR WAGENER: For killing innocent women and children, you're proud of that?

MR NONDULA: I am.

MR WAGENER: Is that how you were trained by your organisation, to do acts like this, commit acts like this?

MR NONDULA: No.

MR WAGENER: So why are you proud?

MR NONDULA: I've said earlier, in a situation of conflict, it is quite regrettable that innocent lives should be lost.  That one is regrettable.  I do regret that, but I cannot run away from the fact that I was acting out of a pure political conscience as a soldier, that one I cannot run away from.

MR WAGENER: But you were acting outside your instructions.

MR NONDULA: I was not.

MR WAGENER: Well I will bring evidence showing that.

MR NONDULA: And I still believe I was not, in that case I would have agreed with you from the beginning, but I was not.

MR WAGENER: What was the purpose that you wanted to achieve by killing these innocent women and children?

MR NONDULA: The purpose was, as I've said earlier, a purely military objective.

MR WAGENER: Yes, but we all know this is not a military target, we know that as a fact.

MR NONDULA: ;   You have established that fact, I think so.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Then the fact that the civilian lives had to be lost, as I've said earlier, is quite regrettable.

MR WAGENER: So my question was, what did you want to achieve by killing these innocent people?

MR NONDULA: What we wanted to achieve was first and foremost to open up this area for ...(indistinct) operations because there was no way for us to go and operate in the area, unless we actually made our presence felt and then we could find our passage through to other areas where we wanted to operate.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, but I don't understand this answer.  How do you open up an area by killing women and children?  I don't understand this.

MR NONDULA: The women and children that were killed were not part and parcel of the overall objective of MK.

MR WAGENER: Right.  So this act of yours was not aimed towards the overall objective of MK?

MR NONDULA: So this act of mine was not aimed at those innocent people, it was part and parcel of the overall strategy of MK.

MR WAGENER: And what was that?

MR NONDULA: As I've said earlier Sir, to open up the area, so that we could be able to operate and reach other places where we thought or deemed it necessary for us.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, we're going in circles now.  Now we're back to my question when I asked you:  "How would you achieve this opening up by killing women and children?"  How would this opening up be achieved by that?

MR NONDULA: At this stage if I've not yet answered you, then I don't know what else answer could I give to you.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, you haven't answered me at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we are going around in circles now.  Perhaps this can be a question for argument.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive a medal for this murder?

MR NONDULA: At this stage I have only one medal, ...(indistinct)  medal, I was given by the SANDF.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive a certificate or a commendation for this murder?

MR NONDULA: Nothing at all.

MR WAGENER: I read in a newspaper you did, you received some order, or I'm not sure what it is, from Mr Mandela in Soweto on the 16th of December, I think 1992, what was that that you received?

MR NONDULA: Sir on the 16th of December 1992, I was in East London.

MR WAGENER: Or 1993, I'm not sure, but I read something like that.

MR NONDULA: In 1993, you are mistaken Sir, if I may say so.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive an award from Mr Mandela at any stage?

MR NONDULA: As I've said nothing, I would have mentioned it.  Nothing.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, I thought - then I'm mistaken.  Did any of your colleagues?

MR NONDULA: I think they'll have to answer for themselves Sir.

MR WAGENER: Do you know?

MR NONDULA: They'll answer for themselves, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Do you know?

MR NONDULA: I do.

MR WAGENER: Did they?

MR NONDULA: I know one.

MR WAGENER: Who?

MR NONDULA: My comrade Mncube.

MR WAGENER: What did he receive?

MR NONDULA: A medal.

MR WAGENER: I'm not sure - I'm referring to an award received from Mr Mandela.  I was under the impression it was you, now you say it wasn't you.  I'm asking you was it your colleagues next to you?

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was Mr Mncube got an award.

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Oh, I see.  Was this not for the incident where ...(intervention)

MR NONDULA: I may not know anything about it, the only thing I know is that he did receive something from the President himself.

MR WAGENER: The ANC says in its submission to the Truth Commission, Mr Chairman I said I think it's page 327 of the bundle, I have the full document before me.  They refer to this campaign of using landmines and they said that the decision for this operation was made at military head quarters.  Do you have any knowledge of this?  That the decision to embark upon this landmine campaign, was taken by your military head quarters.  Do you have any knowledge thereof?

MR NONDULA: For me, Sir, that is logical enough, that any military decisions that were taken at that stage, had to be approved by the High Command.

MR WAGENER: Yes and who would be the High Command?