Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: If we had been one hundred percent certain that recruitment would be one hundred percent successful, then the normal procedure would be to replace such a person as soon as possible.

MR VISSER: Why as soon as possible?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Because it would prevent that other members of the structure in Swaziland become aware of the absence of such a person and that would make the situation rather suspect for such a person.

MR VISSER: Did you or anybody in your presence or anybody that you are aware of, assault Ms Ndwandwe or physically mistreat her?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, she was not assaulted, definitely not.

MR VISSER: By the following morning, I don't know whether I have asked you this already, but just answer it once more if I have, what was the position regarding her recruitment?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: We did not have clarity whether or not she could be recruited as an informant.

MR VISSER: And what happened then?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: We departed for a farm near Pietermaritzburg.

CHAIRPERSON: I seem to recall that at the end of last week, I was asked that we should adjourn at shorter intervals, that the intervals we had last week, were a little tiring for some people, particularly in view of the climatic conditions here.  Should we take the adjournment now before we get to ...

MR VISSER: Certainly Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment of 15 minutes now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: One matter before we continue, unless anybody can advance any very persuasive argument, I propose to adjourn tomorrow at half past three in the afternoon.  I've got to go and see a dentist.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: (still under oath)

MR VISSER: (continued)  Mr Steyn, we have reached the point where on the morning at Onverwacht border post, it was realised that you were not certain whether Ndwandwe would cooperate as an informer and that you then departed for a farm in the vicinity of Pietermaritzburg with her, is that correct?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you travel in the same vehicle as Ms Ndwandwe?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who accompanied her?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Botha drove with her.

MR VISSER: Yes, and when you arrived in Pietermaritzburg, did Botha report any further to you regarding any further conversations which he had with her?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And was there then reason to believe that she was recruitable as an informer?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, at the farm, Mr Botha if I remember correctly, spent another while with her.  He spoke to her for a while longer, after which he told me that he was of the opinion that she was not recruitable.

MR VISSER: Yes, before we get to that, did Mr Botha report to you regarding the content of discussions which he had with Ms Ndwandwe on the way from the Swaziland border post to Pietermaritzburg?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And that she had told him certain things?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you recall what that involved?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, Mr Botha among others informed me that during the drive to the farm, Ndwandwe admitted that some of her units had been responsible for the death of Lieutenant Radjo and that Warrant Officer Zukela had also died as a result of the actions.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that is Exhibit A page 22 as regards Radjo, the fourth item, and page - A Mr Chairman, it is the list of politically related incidents in Port Natal.  Page 22, the fourth item Mr Chairman, and as regards Zukela it is page 25, the third item.
	Page 22 is the first one Mr Chairman, the fourth item from the top and page 25, the third item from the top refers to Warrant Officer Zukela.
	Mr Steyn, you have already stated that Botha proceeded with his interrogation of Ms Ndwandwe.  Did he gradually on the farm, report to you?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And that report, indicated his belief that she was not recruitable?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: What did you do then?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I entered into a discussion with her and I made myself aware of the fact that she had admitted to certain acts of terrorism and that she was not prepared to cooperate with us any further in the form of an informer.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You have stated in your application, in the middle of page 40, that she pertinently stated this?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: What did she state?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: She stated that she would continue with her activities should she be released.  And that she was not prepared to cooperate with us.

MR VISSER: Yes, and at that stage the deed was practically done, if I understand you correctly?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: To charge her in South Africa, would that have been a viable option at that stage?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, it would not have been because we abducted her illegally from Swaziland.  It would have created problems if it came to light that we had abducted her.

MR VISSER: Did you apart from her admittance, have any kind of evidence which could be used in court against her?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What about her release?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Her release would have led to her continuing her activities.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you have also said that as an informer she was not recruitable, what did you do then?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I decided that her elimination was necessary.

MR VISSER: Did you issue any orders in this regard?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: To whom?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I gave orders to Mr Taylor and Mr Forster.  I told them that they were to see to it that she would be eliminated.

MR VISSER: Did you remain there or did you depart?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: After that, I departed.

MR VISSER: And you don't know anything else about what happened there after that?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, I didn't know that evening, but at a later stage I was informed that she had been eliminated and buried.  That she had been eliminated and buried on the farm.

MR VISSER: Mr Steyn, while you were interrogating Ms Ndwandwe on that day and we know now who the people were who were present, you have referred us to who they were, you have referred to Mr Botha, were there also any other people who during the course of that day, arrived there on the farm at Elandskop?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who were they?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I remember Mr Labuschagne and for the moment I have forgot the following name.

MR VISSER: That was Mr Verwey?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did they arrive there?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you know how it came to pass that they arrived there?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Chairperson, I later heard that if I can remember correctly, they had been informed by Mr Taylor earlier that day.

MR VISSER: That Ndwandwe was in your custody?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that Ndwandwe was on the farm.

MR VISSER: Where did they come from?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: They came from the Eastern Transvaal, Middelburg if I remember correctly.

MR VISSER: The Eastern Transvaal, would that be the Uniform Branch of the Eastern Transvaal?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It was the Security Branch of the Eastern Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Okay, and did the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch also have an interest in ANC/SACP activities in Swaziland?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did Mr Labuschagne and or Mr Verwey also interrogate Ms Ndwandwe?