Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR LAX: Absolutely.  I'm not saying it's not a cause for concern in this witness, that I'm accepting without doubt, what I'm saying is it's not a sinister or a totally outrageous form of conduct that you would expect from him and therefore to put it to him on that basis, which is how I'm hearing you put it, you're saying this is so unreasonable to expect Verster to behave in that way, that he would be framing his own man.  I'm saying he's not framing him, it's equally - maybe we're talking at cross-purposes...

MR WESSELS: I think we're talking at cross-purposes, because I'm not suggesting that, I'm merely referring to what in his mind must have been the reason and nothing further than that.

MR LAX: As long as this is clear then let's proceed on that basis.

MR WESSELS: All that I'm saying to you Mr Botha, is that in your mind strange things were now happening and that the possibility came up in your mind that Verster's busy doing sinister things which could place you in danger and that he would not admit that this was a CCB instruction.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, as I have said before it can possibly be that he had in mind to place it before somebody else.

MR WESSELS: I'm talking about other structures, I'm not saying what he had in mind, I'm just trying to find out what was going on in your mind.  You probably felt very worried about what Verster was doing.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: And I said yes and no, yes there may have been method in his madness.

MR WESSELS: Yes but it could also be to your disadvantage.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You do nothing about it, you do not ask anything from anybody or to anyone and you continue with your career in this structure.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Who could I have asked?

MR WESSELS: Could you not have discussed it with anybody in the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Can you identify anybody for me?

MR WESSELS: Could you not discuss this with Gen Webb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We had no access to him.

MR WESSELS: For something of this serious nature you could have got access.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I had to go through Verster to go to the General, there was no other way, there was no other line of contact.

MR WESSELS: Well you knew that Gen Webb was the Commander, the Chairperson, you knew that Gen Webb is a General in Special Forces.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WESSELS: You knew that he had a telephone.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: By nature of the situation you could phone him and say: "General, I would like to make an appointment, I've got very sensitive issues that I'd like to discuss with you."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was a footsoldier and the General and Verster walked together, and you are now trying to say to me that I must consider that option, I have to go to the General and discuss an instruction that he possibly does not even know of.

MR WESSELS: You did not think of anybody in the police or another confidant who you could approach, you were prepared to continue.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is also why I ended up in the Section 29 detention, because people spoke about things.

MR WESSELS: You then continued and you now get the instruction to monitor Bruce White and you foresee that there could be a possible instruction at a later stage to eliminate him.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You continue and you involve Mr Barnard, once again against the rules of the organisation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As you say, yes.

MR WESSELS: And did you in this period of time of a month after the Webster murder, think that maybe you should start acting within the rules of the organisation, that you are busy with very serious matters and that you have to follow the rules?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I have said to you before that I was very willing, I wanted to achieve things in this organisation and I did not have a substructure which I could apply to do the monitoring for me.  In other words I had to do it myself.  I will stand by that.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Geoffrey, when did you get hold of Geoffrey?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, it was in the region of April.  I could have used him most probably.

MR WESSELS: Why did you not make use of him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, he was in a phase in which I was still - he was still in the Peaches phase, the test phase and I was not ready to apply him in such a project.

MR WESSELS: Mr White was not a priority target or project?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a name that was given to us and we were told that we have to focus on him.

MR WESSELS: Could you not go to your Regional Manager and ask him, tell him that: "Look, I've got a problem, I haven't got anybody that I can apply, we have to wait a while"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Seen in the light of my situation with Staal Burger, it would have been fatal.

MR WESSELS: Why, Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot go to him Sir and show to him that I, or indicate that "I cannot do this now, you have to assist me, I'm not qualified to do it, because you gave me this name and I cannot do anything about it."  I couldn't do it.

MR WESSELS: You were rather willing to take the risk of discharge if it came out that you broke the rules?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, in retrospect it was not supposed to come out.  I did take precautions, a mistake was made and it was not supposed to come out, otherwise it wouldn't have come out.

MR WESSELS: It did come out and you were in a lot of trouble.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, when it's a convenient time we'll take the adjournment.  I don't know if it's a convenient time now.  We will now take the lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botha, you told Mr Bizos that you requested and that you begged for them to look after Barnard, do you recall that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I basically insisted upon it.

MR WESSELS: Who is the "they" or "them"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I took up the matter with Staal Burger, our Regional Manager, as well as Nick Nienaber.

MR WESSELS: And when did you have these discussions?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I suspect that it was in September, with the first problems that he picked up.  I can't say precisely when it was, it was with his first arrest or detention and the enquiries regarding Lubowski or whatever the case was, I'm not sure.  And then there was also a second occasion before my own arrest that I asked for him to be given assistance.  I said he needed help.

MR WESSELS: And what was their attitude?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was dual in nature.  Firstly, they were initially unwilling to help, to the extent that they were going to turn their backs on him and at a later stage they realised that they had to assist him.

MR WESSELS: And what did you tell them, why should they assist him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I sketched two scenarios for them.  Firstly, because he didn't have any contact with his handler or his Co-ordinator, and I simply sent the message through them and then secondly, because he was involved with me.

MR WESSELS: Because he was involved with who?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With me.

MR WESSELS: With you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Why didn't he have any contact with his handler?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He didn't have any right for legal visitations and I was basically the only way in which we could make use of a channel to get information to him.

MR WESSELS: What did you say to Mr Burger and the other person as a reason why Mr Barnard should be looked after, in what had he been involved?