Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I do not know what they could have done except for their normal police investigation.  If there were allegations, then they should have investigated it.

MR PHOSA: So, we cannot - this Committee would not be entitled to infer anything from the manner of investigation, that the police were very flimsy about it - were very indifferent to it?  This Committee can't say: "Oh well, you can see they didn't mean to investigate this"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not know.

MR PHOSA: You seem lost about it.  I got the impression from your evidence and that of Mr Erasmus, that even the manner of investigating these cases - let's talk about this one for instance, is indicative of the fact that the ones above were quite happy that you'd eliminated them.  Wasn't that your attitude - your evidence?

MR BOOYENS: With respect, I think the evidence was more in context that it was a general attitude Mr Chairman, not specifically referring to the investigation of this case.  I think my learned friend might have misunderstood.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we will have to adjourn shortly.  We could consider when you're talking about investigation - as I understood it, the original investigation was an investigation into suspected ANC members leaving the country illegally because the cars were found near the border.  I don't know if you were asking about that investigation or subsequent investigation into the possible murders of these two men.

MR PHOSA: I'll deal with that later.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now, once again we will adjourn till a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (s.u.o.)

MR PHOSA: Thank you Mr Chairman.   On the - Mr Chairman, I'm addressing you on the question of the investigation that I was referring to.  I understood - I still understand that the position is that the witness is saying:  "Before and with hindsight looking at the general investigation of political - these situations where people were killed, one does tend to get the impression that it is only ...[inaudible] no-one is doing it seriously", which is a further indication of that in any event truly the powers that be were not very keen on doing a thorough investigation because inwardly they were grateful that it was a political solution. So I thought that is how he mentioned it, both before and with hindsight - that was the attitude, so I was asking the question on that basis.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, if I remember correctly - I was interrupted, could you please repeat what you had asked?

MR PHOSA: My understanding of the - of your reference and perhaps Mr Erasmus's as well, reference to interrogation - the manner of interrogation sorry, sorry, the manner of investigation, I understood it to be that prior to Mthimkhulu's case and even after Mthimkhulu - now with hindsight, it becomes quite clear that no-one is trying very seriously to reveal - to dig up what happened, in other words the investigation is deliberately weak which would be an indication that the powers that be, the politicos - not now though, and the police all the time were not keen to have these matters discovered.  So I thought that was the attitude that you drew an inference from the manner of investigation, am I wrong?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, I cannot generalise on my own in reply to this question but as far as this case is concerned - the Mthimkhulu case, we carried out the operation in such a manner or attempted to carry it out in such a manner that it would appear as if these two people had illegally left the country. 	And that was the impression or perception that we wanted to leave, namely that they had departed for military training or that they had gone to work for the ANC in Lesotho or whatever the case might be.  As far as other cases are concerned, we will have to look at each on it's own merit.  I know of a case or cases in the Eastern Cape for which I applied for amnesty where inter alias the murder and robbery squad had investigated the matter - how badly or how well or thoroughly I don't know, I cannot comment on that.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, lest my silence is considered to be a cent, I must - and I don't want to interrupt my learned friend unnecessarily, but my recollection of the evidence of Mr Erasmus was this, he said that the enquiries that came from above - meaning the politicians because that was what he was talking about, seemed to indicate to him that they weren't terribly keen really to find out what had happened or with that type of impression Mr Chairman.
	It is not my recollection, nor that of my attorney that he said that his impression was that they were not thoroughly investigated by the police.  I'm not certain that it makes any difference whatsoever to the questions that my learned friend is putting but I think that that is the accurate evidence.  I don't think it makes any difference to the question.

MR PHOSA: Thank you for the explanation though.
	Since I'm on that cause - just to finalise that aspect, you personally would not be in a position to suggest that the police who investigated these matters before or after Mr Mthimkhulu's and Madaka's, deliberately avoided digging into the truth - you would, you're not suggesting that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I'm not trying to say that at all.

MR PHOSA: You are aware of the Mxenge matter - I'm not saying you were involved but are you aware of it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I am aware.

MR PHOSA: Now, is it correct that in that situation, again the car was left at the border?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, did that come before or after this case - this Madaka case and Mthimkhulu?   Which came first, the Mxenge case or the Mthimkhulu one?

MR BOOYENS: I don't think that's really a fair question, I appeared in the Mxenge matter and I can't answer that question Mr Chairperson.  This witness wasn't stationed in Natal in the time - if we are talking of the same Mxenge, Griffiths Mxenge.

MR PHOSA: This was not intended really to be a ...[inaudible] question, it was simply for information if he does have it.  If I did have it I would say it myself and if he does have it - it's just that I wanted to put a further point ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: November 1981.

MR PHOSA: Was your idea of putting the car at the border perhaps bought or acquired from what was done with regard to Mr Mxenge's situation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Now, let's pass on to something else.  Were you ever involved in the interrogation of Mr Mthimkhulu?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: And Mr Madaka?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Were you aware that Mr Mthimkhulu was interrogated at the offices of the security police in Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Was a report given to you or reports given to you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not on a daily basis or reports, Mr du Plessis would perhaps once in a week or two mention to me that they were still busy investigating and interrogating Mr Mthimkhulu but that nothing worth mentioning had really arisen and that's perhaps what I can remember his reporting to me.

MR PHOSA: Let's just perhaps clear your point, you say you were not the second in command?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Did you at any stage indicate to anyone that you were the second in command - before today?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No never, not at that stage, not in that year.

MR PHOSA: Or were you perhaps second in command at a later stage?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes indeed, at a later stage.

MR PHOSA: Were you at any stage actually number one in command?