Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

MR KNIPE: I think - I think that is - that is common knowledge, I think one only has to look at the lambasting that Major Brits received from Magistrate Hoffman to conceive that.

ADV POTGIETER: But I mean he was - he was your commander, he was in charge, he was a senior experienced - seasoned policeman.  Do you think it's just negligence or an oversight or was it intentional.

MR KNIPE: Without being disrespectful surely that should be put to him.

ADV POTGIETER: Now but what is - have you got a view on this?  I mean you seemed to have been a policeman who was very concerned about the image of the police and you in fact [intervention]

MR KNIPE: It wasn't professional conduct.

ADV POTGIETER: And would you have expected it from an experienced person like Major Brits?

MR KNIPE: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Now given the evidence that we got now  that Vlakplaas [intervention]

MR KNIPE: I can't hear.

ADV POTGIETER: Given the evidence that we got at this stage that Vlakplaas was involved in this - this whole thing - and given the indications that we have - that people were shot when they should never have been shot, there was no threat to the police, some were shot - busy surrendering - an indication which you might have heard, I don't think it was - it was - no it wasn't put to you, but it was dealt with when some of the other people testified but you might very well have heard it, about an indication of an Tokarev what ever it's called pistol was placed near to somebody's body and so forth - I assume that you've heard that when it was put to one of the other witnesses.
 Given that whole - this whole sort of scenario - bad investigation - Vlakplaas indication - it looks as if people have been shot almost in cold blood - evidence is planted - some disappear  what is your reaction to all this, how does it sound to you, how does it strike you?

MR KNIPE: On the scene I did believe that a hand grenade had been thrown - from what I saw - my personal observations - I believed that a hand grenade had been thrown - of the corpses were armed.  I believe that a very serious warning light flashed when a gentleman by the name of General apparently came forward, I have already expressed my opinion that I do not think the investigation was of suitable calibre.
 I don't think it's my task to say whether people are guilty or not, that's surely the function only of a Court.  But I think the decision to investigate the matter further was fully justified and perhaps this Commission is fully justified too.

ADV POTGIETER: So in your view there - there might be merit in - in really looking at this quite critically again - this entire incident.

MR KNIPE: I have no problem with that Mr Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Now given this sort of attitude that you have towards policing and fairness and so forth and quality of policing and how police should be doing their work and so on, assume that what we've got here is a Vlakplaas operation where people were infiltrated - trained and armed  and set up to launch an attack and were ambushed - shot and killed and that on the morning of the operation, at the briefing to prepare for the operation, the message that was given there was not to take any prisoners - shoot to kill.
 Now assume that is the scenario that we got here, what is your attitude in regard to the policeman who have been involved and responsible, I mean are those - I just want to complete - are those the type of policeman that we should see in the South African Police Services.

MR KNIPE: I would like to answer the question in the following manner if I may.  I believe that if the scenario is sketched by you, it's substantiated with evidence, there is more than sufficient grounds to open a charge of murder.  Which should be investigated to the fullest.
 And if the perpetrators are identified and a prima facie case is made out against them.  That they should suffer the full consequences of their actions.  And obviously if convicted such people have no place in the Police Service.

ADV POTGIETER: Perhaps just to add I mean I think the Chairperson has also indicated already that we are not about prosecution in a way I mean we - we've got amnesty - we got the amnesty process it's there for people who need - who need the process.
 We - we must really recommend as part of our report at the end of the proceedings to the President, mechanisms to avoid this sort of abuse ever occurring again I mean if it's possible.

MR KNIPE: H'm.

ADV POTGIETER: And that is - and it's in that sort of light that I ask you the question dare one see that sort of police officer in the South African Police Services.

MR KNIPE: I think Mr Potgieter you must appreciate that I am a criminal detective, working with criminality, and I see things in black and white.  The scenario sketched to me I think that is the way I would answer it - if it is your brief to make recommendations,  if there is evidence to substantiate what you say - then I think that would be a fair finding.
 I also believe that if what you say should be true, then I would probably recommend that people afford themselves the opportunity to seek amnesty.

ADV POTGIETER: I just - just one final thing as I say look there are so many things that can we actually discuss and so on, but we will more than likely pick up on it again, this - just this one thing that came up as well, where it appears as if this was an operation that was intentionally done by white officers, it seems as if - you know purposely white police officers were chosen to form part of the - of this operation.
 I mean have you got any comments on that sort of thing?

MR KNIPE: Very difficult to comment when you weren't party to a planning.  I know there was a black detective on the scene a chap called Mbelo - I did speak to him and I thought - my impression was that day that he was part of the group that were at the scene.  Now whether he was involved in the prior planning, that I cannot comment on, I cannot I wasn't there.
 I arrived at the scene with my partner who happened to be a black man.  And we conducted our work together as a team as we normally did.

ADV POTGIETER: But as you say I mean it's after the - after the fact - after everything has happened.

MR KNIPE: I am just saying from the prospective where I am - I arrived at the scene, with my partner and we did our job.

ADV POTGIETER: Director I think at this stage I should call a halt I know the time is going to run out on us, but for the moment those are the questions that I wanted to raise Chairperson.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you advocate Potgieter.  Any other questions from the panel - Pumla.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson, and good afternoon to you Mr Knipe, you presented yourself earlier on in your - in your written statement as a man of principal - you also described the investigation into this matter as having been sub standards and unprofessional.  
 Now when you look back, how would you have done things differently had you been in charge of the operation.

MR KNIPE: I would have ensured that statements were taken from all the persons, I would have ensured that residua tests were taken from the hands of all the participants.  I would have ensured that firearms allegedly used were all seized and sent for ballistic examination.  I would have ensured that when evidence contrary to the police evidence was made available, that perhaps objectivity should have been displayed and not subjectively.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: My question - thank you - that's helpful but my question also includes the actual operation - how would you have done it differently the actual killing of these men - the actual way - the way in which they were caught.  How would you have planned the operation.