Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you for sharing that with us.  I am going to ask you some questions so that I can just get everything down clearly.
 You say that you are employed by Correctional Services.  What work do you do for them?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: I am one of the prison warders.

YASMINE SOOKA: What was your son's proper names?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Petrus Tshiemane Motsoenyane.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also called him doctor?  Was he a comrade?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: He was not a comrade.

YASMINE SOOKA: Was he going to school?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, he was a student, he was very intelligent.

YASMINE SOOKA: You told us that on that particular day people were celebrating May Day and that your son had also gone to the stadium.  Tell us how far away from your house the stadium is.

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: My house is where I am standing and the stadium is just at the windows of this hall.

YASMINE SOOKA: You could see clearly into the stadium from where you stayed?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were you watching people go into that stadium on that day?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: They proceeded to the stadium via my house. It was a big march going to the stadium, so they passed via my house. They went to the entrance of the stadium via my house.
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YASMINE SOOKA: How many people do you think was in the march that day?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: There were many. I think there were more than, the stadium was full of people.

YASMINE SOOKA: How many entrances are there to the stadium?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: There are two entrances at the stadium, a big one and a small one.

YASMINE SOOKA: You say in what you have told us, you say that the police and the soldiers blocked up the entrances of the stadium. Did they block up both entrances?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, they blocked them all.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were they blocked with Casspirs or did they just close the gates, do you know?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: They closed it up with the Casspirs.

YASMINE SOOKA: They then fired tear-gas into the stadium?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, ma'am.

YASMINE SOOKA: After they had fired the tear-gas they then started shooting the people in the stadium with live ammunition?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, they did that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Motjali came to tell you that your son had been shot while trying to jump over the fence to get out?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, it is true.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you see other people trying to escape from the stadium?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Around the stadium people were trying to escape, trying to jump and they were falling down. Others were able to jump, they did jump.  Others were just falling down.

YASMINE SOOKA: And all the time the police were shooting?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, I could hear only the bullet shots.
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YASMINE SOOKA: How many people got hurt on that particular day?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: I remember three.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were they shot or had they been tear-gassed?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: They were shot, except those who were tear-gassed.  The stadium was full of the tear-gas smoke.

YASMINE SOOKA: Your son had been injured on his stomach?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, he was shot on the stomach.

YASMINE SOOKA: And you mentioned that you found someone else there as well and you took both of them to hospital?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, that's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: You mentioned that your son died at Sepong Hospital.  Did the other person die as well?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: No, he didn't die.  I left him at Botha Steyn when I took my son to Sepong Hospital.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also mentioned that your son's death was the beginning of trouble in the township.  Can you tell us a little more about that?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: After people heard that Doc was shot the people started, it seems they started at the municipal offices, when they were tear-gassed and there were many cars which were passing.  They were throwing them with petrol bombs. There was a lot of chaos at the time and then the whole location was affected.  What they were able to burn they burnt and even police houses were burnt.  The burnt police houses, I think there were two houses which were owned by policeman, it was burnt down.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were people angry because your son had been this killed in this May Day Rally?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: People were angry because this tear-gas was even thrown inside the houses while there were people inside the houses. They were just shooting at random.  Where they
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saw people they just shot. Where they see a light in one's house, they just shot with the tear-gas, and then people were angry because of that random shootings of the tear-gas.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also say that all the people in the township, your son's friends gathered there.

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: They were coming to sympathise with me because of what has happened.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you ever attend any post-mortem on your son's body?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: No, I did not attend.

YASMINE SOOKA: And did you have no doctor of your own to be present at the post-mortem?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: No, ma'am.

YASMINE SOOKA: And from what you have told us, it took ten days before you were given the body of your son?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, that's true.

YASMINE SOOKA: And you actually only got the body because you went to see a lawyer. Is that correct?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: I believe so, if I didn't go the lawyer  wouldn't have got the corpse. That is the way I see things.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did the lawyers open a charge at the police station against the police for the shooting of your son?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: These lawyers were from Johannesburg.  Then we came to Wolmaransstad. Then we made a statement, we only made a statement to the station commander.  Then the intimidation that I am working for the State and then I am not able to sue the State because they are going to retrench me.  So they threatened me and I couldn't do anything.

YASMINE SOOKA: Who threatened you?  Was it your own employer or was it police who came to threaten you?

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and you as a civil servant therefore, you cannot claim, you cannot claim against the State, because that is your employer.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you think that or did someone tell you that?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: That is the way things are. I knew that that is going to be that, so I didn't want to prove that that is going to be true or not.

YASMINE SOOKA: So you never filed a claim against the Minister of Police also?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: No, ma'am.

YASMINE SOOKA: You said that during this period the police harassed you constantly and they threw tear-gas into your house all the time.  Did they do anything else to you or to any member of your family?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: There were others who came from Kimberley, they were hitting me with the guns on my head.

YASMINE SOOKA: When was this?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: That happened on the the Friday when they came to harass people in my yard.  They said they were proving to people that they are coming from different places, but they didn't care.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did they hit you,  or did they hit you and your family members as well?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, it is only April who hit me, but other members of the family were hit also.  Then I had to run with the group which went to fetch the beest.  So I came late.  When I came late, the people were there in the Hippos.  They were at the offices and people were thrown inside those vans.  So if I were there at that time when they entered the house, I believe I could have been injured.