Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

ADV POTGIETER: And your attack, your attack later that evening or that night had nothing to do with that incident - you were taking revenge for things that happened before that day?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I state it that way.  And after the attack which involved the one person who got injured, we were tired of the attack so we decided to go and attack them because there was nothing else that we could have done, we couldn't run away as there was nowhere to go and hide.

ADV POTGIETER: Now during your own attacks, did the people that you attacked defend themselves or counter-attack you,  was there fighting between yourselves and the people that you were attacking?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: No, they didn't fight back.  We just attacked them, we just attacked those families with some lights on because we thought the people were camping there because we were of the view that they thought we ran away so that was the perfect time to go back and attack them.  ...(inaudible) mentioned by this name said we should make sure that there are no women inside.  I was also of the view that we should go and attack because there were only men in those houses.

ADV POTGIETER: In the letter that you wrote and you were referred to earlier on page 34, point 2 of our papers, you say the following in the last paragraph, - the very last sentence or perhaps I should read the entire paragraph for you just to get the context.  You say
I've never killed before but the circumstances forced me to fight.  I ask for pardon and I will never do it again.  It was like terrorizing the community.
Do you confirm that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I do.  I do accept that.

ADV POTGIETER: What do you mean by - it was like terrorizing the community?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I was referring to harassing the community because I was not of the view that we should fight, I believed that we should sit down and talk.  It wasn't us who started the fight, the other people started attacking us, that's why I'm saying they were harassing and terrorizing the people because young women and young children were going to be caught in this situation.

ADV POTGIETER: Which community are you referring to in your letter that was being terrorized?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I'm referring to the whole community in Richmond, their community and our community, they were also going to be affected.   I'm not referring to men because men were the people who started the whole violence.

ADV POTGIETER: Regarding the attack of your group as terrorizing that particular community that you were attacking or what were you trying to say here?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I personally, I was attacking young ANC members, not the children and the older people.  That's what I'm saying.  I didn't intend to harass or terrorize women and children because they couldn't defend themselves.  I wanted to attack those who attack, those who terrorized the other people like me.

ADV POTGIETER: Now we know that a number of women were killed, some very seriously injured and at least one child as well - in fact it was put to co- Applicant Mr Gumbi earlier, that after one person was injured in the early attack in your area, about twelve people were killed in the attack of your own group.  Are you saying that the action, the conduct of members of your group including women and children - that was terrorizing the community?

INTERPRETER: May you please the last part of your question.

ADV POTGIETER: I'll repeat it.  Are you saying, trying to say that the conduct of members of your group in killing these women and this one child that we know about here - was terrorizing that community?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.  I personally didn't intend to injure women and children, I went out to attack young men from the ANC camp together with older men and not women.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Zuma, I have very few questions for you as I know  you don't like questions.  In your application, you stated that when an attack was launched in your area by the ANC people or alleged ANC people, you shot them and after a while I presume they retreated and you then later attacked them at night.  That appears in your application, did you complete this application yourself?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.  I forgot some of the things in the application because I completed it long ago and we had to complete other forms later so I can't remember what I wrote in the beginning.  I thought maybe those papers were thrown away because we were given new applications and I thought maybe we didn't get response from the first one so when we had to complete the second forms I was confused, I didn't know what happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now in the application which I have, is this your handwriting?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you in fact engage in a fight against the people who came to launch an attack at the people in your area?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat the question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you and your colleagues, other IFP members engage in any fight with the people who came to your area to launch an attack on the 23rd of June because this is what appears in your application.  Do you want me to read the portion?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, read for me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I will read it.
The IFP and Inkatha people were fighting at Ndaleni.  ANC members arrived in the evening at Nkobeni to attack - we fought.  After that we attacked them at their place.  We fought at that night.
I will not succeed with the rest of that further.  What I wanted to know is, did you at any stage engage in a fight with the people who came to launch an attack in your area?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, we engaged in a fight at Makota because the people were fighting us from ...(inaudible) place.  As I've explained before, there is a bit of confusion while I was filling the forms and we did so many things in prison - sometimes you lose your mind.  I can't remember some of the things.  I get confused sometimes.
	The people attacked us,  we ran away,  we came back and had a meeting and we decided to attack them, that's what happened.  I might get confused but this happened at prison because when I was there, there was nothing I could do, I just got confused.   May I explain that I did kill the people and I don't dispute the fact that I was there and I was involved.  Nobody sent me to go and do it.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: You are saying that when you were attacked, you did not in fact fight back, you ran away for cover and later re-grouped to launch a retaliatory attack?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now we are just trying to find out the conflict in your area and that's why these questions are being posed to you and to find out if what you committed, you committed for a political objective or not as we are required to do so by the Act,  you must understand that.  How many times had your area been attacked by the ANC before the 23rd of June 1991?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: So many times I can't remember the exact number.  I would say it was thrice or four times in a week or sometimes the whole week there were people  fighting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And during those attacks against your area, did you suffer serious casualties, did many people in your area die?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, many people died.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many approximately?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would personally think about thirty people died at Tawandeni and some people were not even buried.  You could even say their heads ...(inaudible) all over the place.  That was the incident where ...(inaudible) car was burnt and nobody was arrested for that incident.  So many people were also killed with burning tyres and many people died.  I can't give a specific number.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when did this conflict start, when did the fighting start between you and the ANC in your area?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: If I remember well it started in January 1991.  I would say on the 1st of January 1991.