Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

YASMINE SOOKA: MR   (?): Mr Luthuli, just one aspect I'd like you to go back on and maybe just expand on a little bit.  You spoke about meeting with military intelligence and Terblanche from time to time.  You said - if I understood you correctly, you said some of those meetings happened at the Polo Pony and other places near Mpumalanga.  Did your people work with Terblanche's people at all?

WITNESS:   Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: So it wasn't just a question of him withdrawing his unit from certain areas?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you just expand a little bit on that?  What sort of things did you work on together, what sort of operations or activities or whatever?

WITNESS:   I would say that special constables were recruited from Inkatha areas and we selected specifically Inkatha members.  Therefore it was clear that they were not going to refuse if they were given an instruction to attack a UDF house.  During the night or during the day, Terblanche used to tell me that I can use them.  He was the one who supplied ammunition.   Him personally gave that to me and I'll give this to the special constables.

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairperson, at this stage, as I understand from the counsel that the rule that cross-examination will be reserved until the witnesses have completed that I would then proceed to call the next witness on training.  That's Mr Zweli Dlamini.  It's now ten past four and I'm not sure how long the Commission intends to sit today.  It will be - the one aspect that should possibly be raised at this stage before he gives
 /evidence,
3B evidence, is when I spoke to him prior to the commencement of these proceedings and informed him that the proceedings would be recorded by the television broadcasting companies and that members of the press would be entitled to take photographs of him during the course of his testimony, he indicated that he had fled from the area in which he resided to a new area where he wish to live out his life and he immediately expressed reservations concerned with the fact that he would now be recognised in the new area as the witness in this matter.  Now he's made a request that he be permitted to testify, not in camera, but simply that he be permitted to wear a balaclava.  He has indicated that he will be prepared to meet in private with the Commission to just confirm his identity in the presence of his counsel and were counsel to representing of any of the persons implicated to have any doubts as to his identity, he will be prepared to identify himself in the presence of his counsel to the other counsel.  I have - he is represented by counsel today.  I have discussed this issue with his counsel and possibly he can confirm whether this is still his client's desire that he testify in this manner.
MR   (?): Mr Chairperson, I represent Mr Dlamini and I confirm what Mr Macadam has said.

MR LYSTER: Is there any of the counsel here who wish to make a representation in that regard?   Thank you.  Then the ruling is that Mr Dlamini may, after he has identified himself to members of the panel and to any of those members of the lawyers present who wish to confirm his identity, he may testify tomorrow with a balaclava.

MR MACADAM: May we at this stage take the adjournment?   /I believe
3B I believe that in the limited time available between now and half past four, very little would be made in his evidence and it would be unfair to the witness to leave his evidence standing overnight in the air.  The other aspect, Mr Chairperson, we have encountered certain difficulties in getting the three in custody witnesses to the proceedings each morning.  It appears that the procedure by the prison is that they will first send all the awaiting trial prisoners who have to appear each morning before the various courts that are sitting in this area, that's approximately a hundred persons per day and that thereafter the three witnesses will be then brought down and brought to the hearing, whether hearings could commence at say 10.00 am and that the Commission sit longer each afternoon rather than nine to four.

MR LYSTER: Certainly.  Okay, well, then in view of that practical difficulty, we will meet tomorrow morning at ten and carry on until 5 o'clock.  The matter is then adjourned.  Sorry, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: I don't know if I am the only counsel experiencing this difficulty, but I am finding that the long afternoon session of three hours of entire concentration is quite difficult.  In view of the fact that we are going to sit until five I would recommend that we have a short break some time during the course of the afternoon.

MR LYSTER: Certainly, we can accommodate that.  Mr Luthuli, the matter is adjourned.  You will be called -recalled to give evidence at a later stage and you remain under oath.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LYSTER: The matter is adjourned until tomorrow morning,

MR LYSTER: /10.00

MR LYSTER: 3B 10.00 am.  Thank you very much.

MR LYSTER: PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1997/08/06

MR LYSTER: /PROCEEDINGS RESUMED ON 1997/08/06