Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see it is almost one o'clock, we will take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mrs Dludla, my instructions are that Mr Themba Kubheka collected you and took you to the place where the doctor in fact showed you certain clothing.
	With you was the deceased's son, is that correct?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: If you can just bear with me, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR WILLS: And also your daughter also accompanied Mr Kubheka on that day, is that right?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You have indicated and I think that I heard you correctly, but you have indicated that there was a number of clothing, items of clothing on the floor in the doctor's room.  My instructions are to the effect that it was only the items of clothing that we have seen as were removed, allegedly removed from Ms Kubheka's grave, that is the dress, the slip, the poloneck jersey and there were I believe certain items of underwear, including a bra?  Is that correct?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So either when you gave your earlier evidence that there were other dresses or, that in fact wasn't the case, it was only this one dress that you had to identify, is that right, or you went to identify?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I cannot recall clearly because of the time that has elapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got an interpretation of the answer, and it was "I cannot recall clearly because of the time that has elapsed."

MR WILLS: Did your daughter identify any of the clothing that was there, that you can remember?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: And what was that?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: It was Exhibit 1.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, how old was your daughter at the time?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Are you referring to the time that Ntombi disappeared or when we went to identify the clothes?

ADV BOSMAN: At the time, I think if you could give us both ages, at the time that she disappeared and the time that she identified the dress please.

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: My daughter was born on the 5th of February 1971.

ADV BOSMAN: How old was she when Ntombi disappeared and how old was she when she identified the dress?

CHAIRPERSON: Just by arithmetic, more or less, just over the age of 16 at the time of the disappearance and then the identification, can you recall the year in which you identified the dress, Mrs Dludla?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I cannot recall whether it was 1996 of 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: So she would have been 26, 25 or 26 at the time of identifying the dress?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Samuel, do you have any questions?

MR SAMUEL: No questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any re-examination?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, thank you.    Mrs Dludla, earlier on when Adv Visser cross-examined you, you indicated that you have now gained weight from the time Ms Kubheka disappeared, is that correct?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: And then you were requested to indicate the weight of Ms Kubheka.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, with respect, that was never a question put by me.

CHAIRPERSON: It was the size, not the weight, I don't think we got down to kilograms.

MS THABETHE: Okay the size, sorry, my mistake.  I am indebted to you, Mr Chair, the size.  When you were asked about the size, you stood up and you indicated a few inches from the weight you are now, is that correct?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: I just want you to clarify, what is your evidence, is your evidence that Ms Kubheka was bigger than what you are now by a few inches, or are you saying she was bigger than you then?  Can you just clarify that?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I explained that Ms Kubheka is not my size.  She was smaller on the upper torso and her waist was also smaller.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Ms Thabethe is getting at is, when you indicated, when you stood up and you put your hands next to your hips with a bit of space between your hand and your hip to indicate how much larger you estimated her to be, to you, in that area, were you indicating that at the time, that was the case at the time of the disappearance, that she was that much bigger than you, or now?  That is what Ms Thabethe was referring to.

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I referred to the time when she disappeared.

MS THABETHE: If you were to compare her now, her size now, would you say she was bigger than you now?

MR LAX: Can I just, before you answer, if you say compare her size now, you may confuse her, with respect.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

MR LAX: What is crucial in this issue is, what was the, are you able to give us an indication in relation to your own size now, as to what Ms Kubheka, what her size was before she disappeared?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: As I have just explained, the only difference was her upper body, she had a small bust as well as a small waist.  She had big hips, but she was not that large.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Chair, at the risk of labouring this point, Mrs Dludla, I am still not clear in my own mind how big you think Ms Kubheka was in relation to you today.   I have heard what seems to me to be two slightly different answers.  On the one hand you were indicating, or so I thought at the time, that she was one to two inches wider than you are now and then now, under re-examination, you are saying that was in relation to your size at that time.
	I am going to ask you this question again, are you able as you, if you were to stand up now, to try and give us, and if you cannot, say you cannot, it is okay, you don't have to be forced to do this, are you able to give us any indication as to how big Ms Kubheka was, as far as you can remember, in relation to your own size now?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: What I recall is that the only difference would be our upper part of the body, she was small breasted.

MR LAX: So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that her size then, is roughly your size now, except for the difference in your upper bodies?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, that is what I would say, however, she had slightly bigger hips than myself.

MR LAX: Is that yourself now?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I think I have clarified that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.  Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mrs Dludla, when you identified the dress, did you have particular regard to the size of the dress, or did you only identify it from its general appearance?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I only looked at the dress itself, not the size.

ADV BOSMAN: I think there is something wrong with this, you saw it when it was displayed here on the floor?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And did you have regard to the size then, when you looked at it, when you saw it?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: According to you, would it have fitted her?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, it would.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax has indicated he would like to ask a further question.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chair, there was just one other aspect that has been worrying me.  When you looked at the clothing, did you look at any underwear at that stage?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you, the clothing that was displayed here in front of us, one thing was striking to me that was missing, and that was there was no panties amongst those clothing.  Do you recall whether you may have seen a pair of panties at some stage?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: There was none.