Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me finish my question please Sir.   Can you please tell us the third view of the CP policy that may have existed at the time, which is not that of Mr Botha nor that of Mr du Plessis?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hartzenberg, I understood or rather heard part of your answer, it is possible that the rest of your answer was not heard completely, will you please restate that - as to what your view was not the third view was?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, my point of view is that it is the job and the duty and the sphere within which a political party should work in a political manner to achieve it's objectives.  Under those particular circumstances which existed at the time, we said that we had to retain and maintain our freedom in a certain portion of South Africa and if we were to be attacked we had the right to defend ourselves.

GEORGE BIZOS: So, to summarise the third option is that you were not to take active - be pro-active in violence but you could use violence in self-defence, that was the third version of the policy.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: There are circumstances Sir, where one could react violently or go over to violent action where it is justified.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I am prepared to go on but I see that it's 4 o'clock,  I'm merely drawing attention to it, I don't know if you want me to go on or not.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will now adjourn and we'll resume at 9H30 tomorrow morning.
	Mr Hartzenberg, please see that you're here at 9H30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION - 4 DECEMBER 1997

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, thank you.
	Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Doctor Hartzenberg, when did you become the Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: From he time of the founding of the Conservative Party in 1982 Mr Chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did Doctor Treurnicht become seriously ill?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That happened in April 1993.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's when he became bed-ridden but before that he suffered quite a bit nevertheless carried out some of his duties.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, if I remember correctly, the last duty he fulfilled before he became ill, was that he was involved in discussion of KOSAG and after that he went down to the Cape, starting feeling bad.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just give us a month when he had to ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That was in April.

GEORGE BIZOS: In April.  Did he attend Parliament regularly at the end of 1992 and beginning of '93?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, as far as I can remember, he regularly attended Parliament.

GEORGE BIZOS: The relationship between you and Mr Derby-Lewis, was that a friendly one?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, it was a friendly relationship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there complete trust between the two of you?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if he approached you on any confidential basis and imputed any information to you, you would no doubt respected the confidentiality?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And vice-versa, if you spoke to him and conveyed any confidential matter to him, you would expect him to respect the confidentiality?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, I had no reason to expect anything else.

GEORGE BIZOS: And not only were you political colleagues but you were also personal friends?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is entirely correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you visit one another at the end of '92, beginning of '93?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, we did not visit each other at home because we lived too far apart, we saw each other in our capacity as parliamentarians and Presidential Council Members and as Executive Council Members of the Conservative Party and on that basis we saw each other regularly.

GEORGE BIZOS: And inevitably parliamentary life consists - to a certain extent, in social intercourse between or amongst political colleagues when in Cape Town - drinks, parties and braaivleis's and dinners, that sort of thing - as part of life - social life of parliamentarians, is that correct?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is entirely correct Mr Chair, Mr Derby-Lewis was also a member of the Presidential Council at the time and they did not sit continuously, if I remember correctly they sat two weeks per month, in other words we did not see each other as regularly as parliamentarians normally did.

GEORGE BIZOS: But there were overlapping periods?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, we saw each other regularly and everything was in order.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, did he at any time at the end of '92 or beginning of '93, come to you and say to you that he was planning the murder of Mr Hani?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he come to you and ask you what the policy of the Conservative Party was in relation to the elimination of Mr Hani?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, Mr Chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he come to you and ask you whether the policy of the Conservative Party as stated publicly up to then, that it was a political party and above board and against violence, did he ask you during end of '92 beginning '93 whether the policy of the Conservative Party had changed?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, Mr Chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he come and discuss with you any moral question that was - concerning him, about the taking of human life by way of murder on behalf of the Conservative Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, Mr Chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: And from what you have already told us, the relationship between you and him was such and the opportunities were available for him to ask you those matters if he wanted to?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you viewed the television programme in which you were interviewed by Mr Lester Venter on the 20th of April 1993?  Have you seen that video?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, I never saw that video.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've never seen it?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you been shown a transcript R6?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, Sir, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you had an opportunity to read it and to study it?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I read through it.

GEORGE BIZOS: And does it correctly report what you said to Mr Lester Venter on television?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, that is correct Mr Chair.  I think that perhaps with regard to that I have to state Mr Chair, that the Conservative Party is a Democratic Party and in it's programme of principles - since 1982, there has been no single chapter or portion that dealt with violence and that stipulated a policy with regard to violence because we did not regard violence as an instrument and that is the difference between a Democratic Party, Sir and a Communist Party.
	Communist Parties may use violence and it probably has policy with regard to violence because they are kept in power by violence but not a Democratic Party and therefore nothing of that nature is stated in the policy.  And during that period end '92, beginning '93, we became aware that there was - that an attack could come against Afrikaners and for that reason we started to mobilise in order - under certain circumstances, to be able to defend ourselves.

GEORGE BIZOS: Doctor Hartzenberg, I merely asked you whether you agree that what has been transcribed is correct, please ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I said yes, ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Could you please wait for the questions that I want to ask you and if you want to add something which I have left out, I am sure that counsel that called you will ask you any questions that I have left out.  Just answer the questions please Sir.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I would like to point out that that is exactly what I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I didn't ask you any questions Doctor Hartzenberg, other than if you agree that this is a correct statement made by you?  Please wait for the questions Sir.