Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR P A VAN WYK: That is correct, if I may.  Mr Chairman, thank you.  I accept the position in respect of Mr Chonco, but the position in respect of Mr Ntombela is not clear yet.   I accept that at all times Mr Bizos has got instructions to make statements to Mrs Ntombela.
	He had put it to her that she was not, in fact, shot and killed by one of the ANC guards.   Then it is not clear how come they can apply for Amnesty because it was taken up with the mother, this morning, and she approached me with an attitude, that it had been put to her, her son was not killed by any of the guards.   And I think that the position must be clear.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the position has been made clear.   They are persisting in the position.   If you wish to lead any further evidence in that regard, you should just do so.

MR P A VAN WYK: Thank you.   Mr Chairman, I will then just request that statements not be made to the people which is in conflict with the application.   I call the next Objector and that is Mr Amos Ngobese.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, just before my learned friend proceeds, there is two other deceased position that needs to be clarified as well.   Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR P A VAN WYK: I call Mr Amos Ngobese.   He will testify in Zulu, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you please give us your full names?    Please give us your full name.

MR NGOBESE: I am Sibusiso Amos Ngobese.   Ngobese is my surname.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngobese, will you object taking the Oath?

MR NGOBESE: No.

SIBUSISO AMOS NGOBESE: (sworn states)

MR P A VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Ngobese.   Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngobese how old are you?

MR NGOBESE: I was born on the 2nd January 1965.

MR P A VAN WYK: What was your formal education that you had?

MR NGOBESE: Up to Standard Nine.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you complete or pass Standard Nine or what?

MR NGOBESE: I passed Standard Nine.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you, during 1994, reside at the Nancefield Hostel?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct.

MR P A VAN WYK: And what employment did you have at that stage?

MR NGOBESE: I was working for Radlend Industries in Benrose.

MR P A VAN WYK: Whilst at Nancefield Hostel, before the shooting incident, did you attend any meetings that was addressed by an Induna?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that happened.

MR P A VAN WYK: And who was this Induna?

MR NGOBESE: There is an Induna who is Chief of Indunas.   Mmbatha was the one who occupied that position, in charge of all other Indunas at the hostel.

MR P A VAN WYK: Is Mmbatha a bachelor's Induna?

MR NGOBESE: He is an Induna who is in charge of all of the Indunas, who are in charge of bachelors.

MR P A VAN WYK: Who addressed this meeting that you attended?

MR NGOBESE: It was Mr Induna Mmbatha.

MR P A VAN WYK: Do you still have a recollection as to what he said at this meeting?

MR NGOBESE: I recall him saying that we will go to Library Gardens in Johannesburg to listen to the KwaZulu King, Zweletini, about all his concerns, that he shall continue being the King of KwaZulu, and not be chucked outside.

MR P A VAN WYK: Was anything said at this meeting that you people were to be armed with firearms, go and attack Shell House, the building, attack the guards or attack the ANC leadership?

MR NGOBESE: No, it wasn't like that.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you then, on the 28th March, go from Nancefield towards the city to attend this meeting at the Library Gardens?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, we left Nancefield for the Library Gardens in Johannesburg.

MR P A VAN WYK: Of what transport did you make use?

MR NGOBESE: From the Hostel Nancefield, we went to Nancefield Station and took a train up to ... We left Nancefield Station to Johannesburg Station.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you have any firearms with you on that day?

MR NGOBESE: I did not see any firearms.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you have any traditional weapons with you?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, as it was said that we should have such traditional weapons as is the case with us.

MR P A VAN WYK: What did you have with you?

MR NGOBESE: I had my shield and a traditional knopkierrie.

MR P A VAN WYK: Can you explain in your own words, as from the station, what did you see and what happened further until you were injured on that day?

MR NGOBESE: According to my recollections, we got off Park Station in Johannesburg and we went up, as we know that you go through Hook to Library Gardens.   We saw police wearing Stability Uniform.   I think I was in the third group or second group, I am not too sure.   When we got to Hook Street, the street that we were supposed to use, we saw police there and we continued with Noord Street and jumped Wanderer's following the others who were in front, until we turned in King George.

MR P A VAN WYK: Who led the way?

MR NGOBESE: At that time, it was Induna Kinela, who is late.

MR P A VAN WYK: Now as you people gathered at the Station and you joined this group under Mr Kinela, were you told by the Induna Kinela or anybody else that you people were now going to Shell House?

MR NGOBESE: No we were not told that.   We continued with our routes to Library Gardens.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you at that stage know where Shell House was?

MR NGOBESE: The first time I knew Shell House was when we got to General Hospital, when we were told that we were assaulted at Shell House.

MR P A VAN WYK: Before you got to Shell House, were you told by anybody or instructed by anybody that you are going to attack a building, that you are going to attack guards or that you are going to attack and kill the ANC leadership?

MR NGOBESE: No, I bear no knowledge to that effect.

MR P A VAN WYK: Was that your intention of going to Shell House to attack the building, to kill the guards or to kill any of the ANC leadership in order to stop the Elections?

MR NGOBESE: According to my knowledge, we left Nancefield going to Library Gardens.

MR P A VAN WYK: Now you have explained the route that the people jumped Wanderer's Street, can you proceed as to when you walked and what then happened?

MR NGOBESE: When we turned into King George Street, we jumped De Villiers Street.   There was a man who approached, a White man with long hair, trying to stop us and we were surprised as to why he was stopping us because some had already proceeded to Library Gardens.  We passed that man.   Immediately after that, we got shot at.

MR P A VAN WYK: Do you recall in which street you were or close to which building you were when you were shot at?

MR NGOBESE: I know the building, but I did not know that it was Shell House.   I can actually point it out, if you know.

MR P A VAN WYK: Did you at a later stage accompany the police to that building and show them where you were shot at?

MR NGOBESE: There are some police who came to me, who wanted me to point it out to them and I did, as exactly that.

MR P A VAN WYK: Do you today know what building that is, where you were shot at?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I know it is Shell House.

MR P A VAN WYK: Could you mention to the Committee what injuries you sustained from this shooting incident?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I can.

MR P A VAN WYK: Please proceed.

MR NGOBESE: As I was shot, I was right on the pavement next to the building but, on the opposite side, I realised that we were being shot.   Like enough, when that emanated, there were cars that were parked on the pavement when they were shooting at me under the car.

MR P A VAN WYK: Were you lying down when you were shot at?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I was lying down.

MR P A VAN WYK: Now you have been present when several of the ANC security personnel and guards testified as to what happened on that day.   I want to know from you, whilst you were on the corners of King George and De Villiers Streets, did you and your co-colleagues/co-Zulus, did you people charge towards the corners of King George and Plein Streets in order to attack the guards or the building or the ANC leadership?   What is your comment?