Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Gips, ja Gips.
"He told us that he had financial problems and where he was staying it was not safe.  I then asked him that since he was from Zambia and he came through front line States, was he armed.  He said yes, he was armed.  I then said that it would be better if we take those arms with him and leave with him.  And at that time Radebe was not saying anything as the person who was not aware of anything.
		I then called Dube outside, I asked him what to do in that situation.  We then decided to leave this man behind and to come back the following day to fetch him, so that we can arrange a place for him to stay, we cannot leave him that time.  We wanted to do this, so that we can report to our seniors that we had found this person and the arms were there.
		We stayed for a while and at night we went back to Winkelspruit and I told them in Winkelspruit that we found this man, he was trained and he knew the language that was used outside and he also had weapons.  They then asked why we left him behind.  We then said that we decided to leave him behind and to go to them and report first.  We were then told that the following day we had to fetch him and than arrangements were made, because I was not familiar with Durban at time.
		We spent the night in Winkelspruit.  On the following day, at night, I phoned during the day and I told Ntombi to arrange so that when we got there we find this man there, so that we can go and fetch the weapons and take him to a safe place.
		I think it was on a Sunday, if I'm not mistaken.  I can't remember the days well, because this happened a long time ago.  On Sunday we arrived there, we found this man, we went with him to a squatter camps in Inanda, I think it was in Inanda, but I'm not sure, in the squatter camps.
		When we arrived there this man took out, AK, Makarov, grenades, two or three, but two of those had detonators and one did not have a detonator.  He took them out and then he took his clothes, we went with him, we drove with him.
		On the way we stopped on a false roadblock.  When we arrived there, we knew that it was a false roadblock.  We handed him over to the white men.  We then left, we went to sleep.
		On the following day I was told to go and fetch a car, a Corolla at CR Swart.  Radebe then took us to CR Swart.  When we arrived in CR Swart with Radebe and Dube and this other man, Gipsbeen, Simon got a watch, this guy's watch and I was given a bag.  Dube took clothes and this other man also took clothes of this guy.  We were given these items when we were in CR Swart.
		I then said to Radebe, "This shows that they had finished with this guy, they had killed him, because we were given the items that belonged to him."  That was according to my perception. 
		After two or three days I went back to Ntombi, I told her that the guy is safe, there is no problem, he is in a safe place.  Ntombi then said that there is another man who also has a problem, this man has got items in a certain place and he would like these things to be fetched and she also said that she would like to introduce this man to us.
		We left with her to Lamontville, or to Chesterville, I'm not sure.  When we arrived there, Ntombi went in and she left us behind.  This man came, by the name of Sbu.  Sbu introduced himself and we also introduced ourselves to him.  He told us that he had weapons in the Transkei and he wanted those weapons to be fetched.  He then asked about transport and then I told him that Radebe was the one who was helping us out concerning transport.  We then told him that we would see him the following day.
		We went back to the base and we gave a report-back.  We were then told to see what to do, because it was impossible for us to go to the Transkei.  On the following day we went back to him, driving a Corolla, not a kombi this time.  There was an RPG7, AK, and we all had Makarovs, so that this man can also see that we were also armed and there were also shells of the RPG7, but I can't remember how many there were.
		We met this man nearby his residence.  We then requested that we move from that area to another place, so that we can discuss these things.  We decided to go to Ntombi.  We bought liquor when we arrived there and we had gained confidence of this man, he trusted us.  We then said that we discussed this Transkei issue.  This man then showed us his friends, Zimba, that was together with him in the struggle.  
		We went back to the base at night.  The following day we reported back to our seniors about what happened.  We were told to gather some more information, to find out if he's got some more information.  We were with this man for about a week and we'd contact Ntombi every day, visit her or phone her.
		On another day we were told to bring Sbu with us.  We took a kombi, it was myself, Simon, Dube, the there of us.  This other guy who had a plaster of paris was not with us on that occasion.  We took him and we were told to take him to the base.  We made sure that we cover his eyes.  We found him next to Kentucky Fried Chicken, because we did not want to pick him up at home.  
		We found him there, we took him to our seniors.  We told him that we did not want him to see where we were going.  We then handed him over to the white men.  That was the last time I saw him and I concluded that they had killed him.  And we did not ask any questions about the whereabouts of this man.
		We stayed in the base, if I'm not mistaken I think about four to five weeks and I would see Ntombi.  Ntombi again gave us another man, I don't know his name.  When we took this man to the base and I could see that he did not trust us, he wanted to cause problems for us.  We told him that we were terrorists and we can kill, so if he wanted to see that we are able to kill, he will see.
		The fact that this man was killed, that was not planned, it just happened.  He was shot, he died and we left his body next to the hotel.  That was a busy area, we thought that maybe people would think that we were fighting, drinking alcohol and fighting and then somebody shot him, so we left him there.
		We would see Ntombi now and again and she told us that there were another four comrades that arrived.  She was worried that she did not know where the other three were, so she wanted to see at least of them, one of the three.  We said that that was not a problem, if she wanted to see them, we would arrange that to happen. 
		We reported back to your seniors, we said that there were four people that were around, but Ntombi is not going to show us these people before she could see one of the three that she handed over to us.  So we thought that she was suspecting something.  We were told to bring Ntombi, because she did not want to show us the other four comrades.  
		We also had our own meeting, decided that this would be dangerous if we can go straight to the house to fetch her, because if she would disappear after these three people had disappeared.  So we thought that it would be better if she would come to us, meet with her at the station or the taxi rank.  We agreed.  I phoned her and I asked her to meet us at the Durban station.  She agreed and she told me which clothes she would be wearing and I told her that I would be driving with a white Corolla.  Sometimes it would be sky blue, sometimes it would be white.  The colour of this car used to change frequently."
...(intervention)

MR SAMUEL: If you'll just hold on there, Mr Mbane, just go back a little bit before we get the issues confused here.  Alright.  You told us that you had taken the last person whom you all had killed and thrown the body at the hotel, do you recall the last person that you all had taken from Ntombi?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember their names, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Okay, but do you remember that incident?  We're talking about that incident now.  Now in that incident, who was with you at that time?