Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV FORD: Now, being an explosives expert, you would expect I 
am sure that where a terrorist bomb had gone off, especially where 
members of the Security Forces are concerned, that at the very least, 
the matter would be fully investigated, a report obtained from an 
explosives expert, full attempt made to identify the explosives used, 
and the like?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

ADV FORD: Now, you weren't personally involved in the 
investigation of the bombing, were you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: The Investigating Officer as has already been said was 
one Captain Van Wyk?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV FORD: Under the authority or control of Colonel Roelofse?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Did the investigation of bombings fall well within 
their powers or within their experience in this regard, do you think?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.  Could I just explain that the bomb 
operatives would put in his statement his explanation and the 
investigation could then proceed.

ADV FORD: The investigation of this matter, do you know was a 
video taken of the scene?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Do you know when the video first came to light in the 
course of the Goniwe inquest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it was whilst I was testifying.

ADV FORD: Was there any mention of the video in the 
investigating diary?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I think so.

ADV FORD: You think so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think so because he was on the scene.  Van 
Wyk was himself on the scene.

ADV FORD: A sketch plan came to light during the course of the 
inquest, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Was there mention of that in the diary?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think so because I think photographs were 
taken and on the video you can see where the fingerprint expert had 
taken certain measurements on the scene, so there must have been a 
plan and I think the Investigation Officer requested it as such.
	But I think the person who dealt with that was Constable 
Retief, and he was then transferred.  I think that is where the matter 
ended.

ADV FORD: Was there a report from an explosives expert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV FORD: Who was that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I handed in a report.

ADV FORD: Well, that couldn't have been of much use, could it, 
seeing that you were involved in the placing of the bomb?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV FORD: In that report, did you make any attempt to identify 
the explosives used?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Did you make, was there any suggestion that you 
conducted any investigations in so far as the identity of the 
explosives were concerned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not.

ADV FORD: Were any specimens taken in an attempt to analyze 
these from the scene?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: In those circumstances, how was it ever going to be 
possible to analyze the origins of the bomb?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We were all on the scene, all the operatives.  
We couldn't take any samples, because it was contaminated and in 
any event, you can't determine the origins of the explosive device.  
The samples would only tell you what it was made of normally, so 
there isn't any concrete ... (intervention)

ADV FORD: The point is I am making, Mr Nieuwoudt, there was 
no real attempt made to do any of that, was there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Mr Bizos in his cross-examination of Colonel 
Roelofse in the Goniwe inquest, referred to it as a parody of an 
investigation.  Do you think he was wrong?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't think so.

ADV FORD: Have you read through the investigation diary of that 
incident, Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

ADV FORD: Do you know how many times the notation is made 
investigation proceeding?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: There were many of those, many of those 
notes.

ADV FORD: In your experience as an officer, what is the purpose 
of an investigating diary?  To explain precisely what investigation is 
being conducted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what kind of diary is this now?

ADV FORD: The investigating diary which related specifically to 
the bombing, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: In other words you did everything in your 
power, to actually cover this up?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can accept that Mr Ford.

ADV FORD: I certainly accept that this witness would have done 
that, I am trying to identify because if other persons were also 
involved in the cover up Mr Chairman, then it is appropriate and 
proper that they should also be brought to justice.

CHAIRPERSON: Proper that what?

ADV FORD: That they also be brought to justice.  That is why I 
am asking these questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But you must remain within the parameters of 
this particular application.

ADV FORD: Mr Chairman, as I understand it, one of the 
requirements of an applicant in one of these applications, is that 
there should be a full disclosure of facts.  If there are facts which 
are available to any of the applicants, which indicate that any other 
person committed a criminal act in relation to this incident, then 
those facts too should be brought to light.  If I am wrong, then I 
will desist.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you are wrong.  The Act does not say a full 
disclosure of all the facts, it says a full disclosure of all the relevant 
facts.  The word relevant is there, it is used there with a very good 
purpose.

ADV FORD: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Am I to understand then that the 
facts relevant to the cover up which took place afterwards, are not 
relevant?  Because if that is so, then I will stop, then I am wasting 
... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the cover up must be relevant first.  What 
do you want to bring first?  We shouldn't argue about what came 
first, the chicken or the egg or what should come first.  The cover 
up in the sense that you want to canvass it, must be relevant before 
the non-disclosure thereof can be said to be material and that it 
should have been disclosed.

ADV FORD: Mr Chairman, I am trying to ascertain whether there 
were any other members of the Security Police in Port Elizabeth, 
especially those in higher office, who were well aware of what had 
happened, the operation which took place, and were involved in the 
cover up which took place afterwards.  I am trying to do no more 
than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, yes, but don't go beyond the limits.

ADV FORD: I will certainly desist if you tell me I am so doing Mr 
Chairman, I will stop it immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: I am just about to think that you are just about at 
the limit.

ADV FORD: Well, may I ask one or two more questions Mr 
Chairman?  Mr Nieuwoudt, having regard to the positions in which 
both Colonel Roelofse and Captain Van Wyk held in the Security 
Branch, your evidence as I understand it is that they had no 
knowledge of the operation either before or after?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And as far as you are concerned, nothing relating to 
the investigation thereafter in any way changes your view in that 
regard?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.  I may mention that I misled 
the people at the scene by placing that detonator there and even my 
experts were misled.  They made the assumption that it was an ANC 
operation.  So I misled them, but nobody else knew about it.

ADV FORD: Let me only put this to you then Mr Nieuwoudt, the 
documentation available, documentation which was referred to in 
your trial, the reports referred to a limpet mine, is that right?