Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-07

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is Justice Bizane.  We used to call him Mandla Shezi at that time.

MR MOLOPE: His real name is Justice?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: The name I know is Mandla Shezi.   I don't what happened to Mandla Shezi, he disappeared.  The last time I saw a piece of news on the newspaper, I don't know as whether it's Dirk Coetzee saying that the person who killed Mr Molope together with de Kock saw they were killed.  I don't know what happened to him.

MR MOLOPE: I'm talking about Justice.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: Who's Mzemela?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't know Mzemela.

MR MOLOPE: You and Justice have killed Mr Molope?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: It is for the first I hear what happened to my father because all the time I did know what happened to my father.  All the time we did not know what happened.  At the time when you went there you were having an AK47?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: And hand grenade?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: You did not use the hand grenade?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, we did not.

MR MOLOPE: I want the truth.  All other aspects are not useful.  When a person has lost his father he wants to know what happened.  You were trained is it?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: You had enough time before you did this job.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: What time?

MR MOLOPE: That is to say you were not in a hurry to complete the job.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: You checked your rifle?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: How many rounds did you have?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: It had thirty one rounds and another one was ready to go out.

MR MOLOPE: When you entered the scene of the crime, according to your statement you heard the girlfriend of Mr Molope?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: Did you knock?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No - yes, we did knock.  There is a door which is opposite, next to the door where we knocked.  Justice knocked at the other door and then the other door was next to the toilets, it was partially opened.  There was a movement on the opposite door and Justice shifted from the other door where he knocked to the other door where that girlfriend opened the door and then the girlfriend tried, when he opened the door, she saw our AK47 and then he tried to close the door.
	When Justice was knocking on the other door then I said to Justice there is a movement on the other door, then Justice moved to the other door.  Immediately when he tried to knock then the girlfriend saw the AK47 and then she tried to close the door again.

MR MOLOPE: You knocked at the first door?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, but there w as no response.  Then the other door it seems was a toilet door, then there was a movement on the opposite door where the girlfriend appeared.

MR MOLOPE: Are these doors facing each other or these doors are separate?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't know how to explain these doors.  Do you see my hands?  You come in that direction from the front, I was the corner and then Justice came and looked at the door which I said it is a toilet door, then he knocked on the other door, there was no response on that door, then I heard some movement from the opposite door, then I told Justice that there is a movement from the other door, then Justice moved to the other door.  That is the time when the girlfriend opened the door, then that lady saw the rifles and then she closed the door.

MR MOLOPE: Are these doors on the same side?  I don't understand what you mean by north, do you mean on the part of the house?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: There at the back when you enter through the gate you go behind the house then you find these two doors.  I can make a sketch for you to understand.

MR MOLOPE: You said the girlfriend opened the door because people were knocking?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: She was not opening that door because she knew that there were people coming.  I don't believe so.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: If she knew that we were coming she could not close the door because she struggled to close the door and that was too late.

MR MOLOPE: If I tell you that you talked with this girlfriend, I talked with this girlfriend then she said she couldn't do anything, you were coming and then that thing was already planned because she was a member of the Winterveld community and those people were against her so that she wanted to be safe and then that lady knew before that you were coming.
	I think it's better that you should go and talk to her.  You are not telling me the truth.  You are not telling the truth and we need to know how our father died.  Are you saying that this woman told you the truth?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Are you saying that I'm lying?

MR MOLOPE: No, I'm saying you are lying because you are telling me a different version.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Since from yesterday Mr Masina said his version and you and Mr Masango and Neo and you all say that we are lying.  You came with an attitude and before hearing us out you just made a decision that we came here to lie.

MR MOLOPE: No, all I need is the truth.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I told you, I even offered to give you a sketch, a drawing of the place.  If I did not have the intention with you I wouldn't have come here but the problem is you have an attitude and before you hear us out you have decided that we are just telling lies.

MR MOLOPE: By the way you have killed our father.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Do you believe that we have killed him?  Why are you saying if you are telling me that I'm lying if I say that I killed him?

MR MOLOPE: The thing is I want to know the truth as to how you killed him.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I'm telling you the truth  What I'm saying is the absolute truth, we killed him.

MR MOLOPE: We as the family, we can only forgive you if you tell the truth.  We understand why you killed but we want to know whether you did kill him.  I can only forgive you if you tell the truth.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Brother let me tell you here and now, I am here for reconciliation purposes.  I went through all the pains to come here and tell the truth and therefore I don't understand what you're expecting from me or what you are saying.

MR MOLOPE: You are not prepared - you don't want me to ask you questions.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: It's offensive of you to tell me that I'm telling a lie.  We are both Motswana men and I expect you to respect me.  You have got the right not to believe me but don't tell me that I am lying.

MR MOLOPE: You are a murderer, you killed my father therefore I'm just requesting one thing of you.  Since you are used to killing people, you mustn't come and kill me.
	Right now you are saying that Chris Hani is the one that issued the instruction, but he is not here anymore.  You feared Mangope, you should have killed Mangope.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Please I'm pleading that this person must ask relevant questions about us not having Mangope and all that is not relevant.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: You mustn't come and kill me.  Give me a chance to talk.  I'm just telling you that you have killed my father as you have just claimed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molope, there's been no suggestion whatsoever that anybody is going to be coming after you. I think if you could just ask questions relating to the killing of your father.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Chairman, I have the right to ask him questions and when I feel that he is telling lies I should be able to do so.  My father has died a long time ago and we want to know how he died.