Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: The decision to eliminate Kondile was as I understand, taken by three of you, Erasmus, van Rensburg and yourself?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand, Erasmus was at that time the most senior of the three of you.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After the execution of Kondile, did you have to report to anybody who was your superior, that Kondile had been killed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.  If I'm correct, Mr van Rensburg informed Colonel Erasmus telephonically and at a later stage I was present when Erasmus was informed that everything had gone well and that he had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: When Kondile had complained that he had been assaulted by the police in East London, did he use the word: "assault" or did he use the word: " torture"?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, he said: "assault", he used the word: "assault".

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever bother to find out what the nature of that assault was?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Unfortunately not.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you were interrogating him, what injuries did he receive?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: External injuries: none at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he examined by a doctor in Port Elizabeth or at Jeffrey's Bay at any stage while you were there?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I want to believe that he - it was possible that he was examined but I cannot remember and nor do I have any documentation to prove this.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not at your request?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It is possible, but I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not as a result of an injury that Kondile had sustained to his head, that required examination?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Definitely not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the doctor tell you what the result of his examination was of Kondile?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot recall at all that Kondile was examined by a doctor, what I am saying is that it is possible that a doctor could have seen him.

CHAIRPERSON: Who to your knowledge, would be the one who might know whether Kondile was examined by a doctor?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the most senior person at Jeffrey's Bay at that time?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: If I can remember correctly, I think it was Warrant Officer Jonker who was the station commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the most senior of the security police at the time?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: At Jeffrey's Bay?

CHAIRPERSON: At Port Elizabeth or Jeffrey's Bay.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Now General Erasmus, then General van Rensburg and after him it was I.

CHAIRPERSON: If a person who was being interrogated felt that he wasn't well and needed to be examined or treated by a doctor, who would take that decision?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do not understand what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: The time that Kondile was in detention at Jeffrey's Bay for example, if he was feeling unwell and felt that he wanted treatment - medical treatment, who would have decided that he should get medical treatment?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think he would have had to make that complaint to the station - commanding officer and they would have informed us and the necessary arrangements would have been made for him to see a doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I want to talk about something else now, what happened to the documents that you had found on his bed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: They were destroyed.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The documentation that he wrote to me, I destroyed and the other one - I do not know what happened to that, I do not know what happened to the notes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
	Are there any questions that you would like to put to this witness?

MR MOOSA: There are.
	Mr Erasmus, I want to direct your attention to the last page, the last question of your application that is on page 22 of the 1st Volume.

CHAIRPERSON: This is Mr Du Plessis.

MR MOOSA: Mr Du Plessis, I'm sorry.
	Under question 14, you say that you have tried in the application to make it as complete as possible, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: But today with your verbal testimony, we have seen quite a lot - we have heard quite a lot which does not appear in the application at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa, I don't think we should allow that, carry on - he is giving evidence here on oath. What might be regarded as essential by him or his counsel was put into that form and I think you should consider what is the evidence he's giving now.

MR MOOSA: Mr Chairman, I was coming to that.
	What in fact happens with your statement, is that you gloss over everything and really start in essence, with the meeting you have with your senior, would that be correct or a fair summary?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: We met one another before we made these statements.

MR MOOSA: By: "we", you mean?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Various security branch policemen in the Eastern Cape came together and said that we would apply for amnesty from the Truth Commission and we saw one another's statements.

MR MOOSA: And it would at least include the three other applicants we have listed in this application, that is Mr van Rensburg, Mr Raath and Erasmus, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think they were also there, yes.

MR MOOSA: Was anyone else from the Eastern Cape who was there?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Mr Niewoudt was there as far as I can recollect.

MR MOOSA: Anyone else?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think Captain Sakkie van Zyl was also there on certain occasions, I can't think of anybody else at this stage.

MR MOOSA: Of course there could have been other people?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It is possible, yes.

MR MOOSA: And was this just one meeting or a series of meetings where you exchanged statements?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it was only one meeting we held as far as I can remember.

MR MOOSA: And when was that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It was shortly before the due date, it was shortly before these statements were made.

MR MOOSA: And where did you get together?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: We met in Pretoria.

MR MOOSA: So, would it also be fair to say that you exchanged information and you basically decided together what should be in the application and what should not?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I don't think that, I think it was a case - is that we refreshed one another's memories.  After such a long time it's virtually impossible to remember what exactly had happened.  This is what we tried, we tried to refresh one another's memories in order to tell the truth to this Committee.

MR MOOSA: You also had before you at that stage already, the statement by Mrs Kondile as well as by Dirk Coetzee, did you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, we didn't have it with us.

MR MOOSA: Had you seen it at that point?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't remember that I'd seen that.  Dirk's statement or testimony before the Harmse Commission, I knew about that.

MR MOOSA: I want to refer you to page 59 of Volume 1 - this is a statement made by you.  Look at paragraph 2 of that statement, could you read it out to us?
MR DU PLESSIS
"I'm advised that Dirk Coetzee made allegations which means that I was an associate to the alleged murder on Koniwe Kondile.  Such allegations are untrue and in what will follow I am putting the real facts"

MR MOOSA: And when was this statement made from which you're reading?  Is it on the 11th of June 1990? - page 63.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And that is your statement that appears there - that is your signature, I'm sorry?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: So, in fact you did have knowledge of the allegations made by Mr Coetzee?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's what I said Your Honour.