Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes it was a direct instruction as he was referring to myself and the other comrades were there at the time,  though the other one was also involved in something else at home therefore only the two of us were left to go on the mission, it was myself and Comrade Nomabise, we recruited the other comrades and we went to this operation.

MR MAPOMA: What rank did you occupy in the MK hierarchy at that time?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We did not have ranks in the MK like in any regular forces.  We would have section commanders, company commanders up to the very last structure in the army.  The rank was not important here in South Africa but in exile I was a base commander in one of the bases that we had in the exile.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Now the intended purpose was to arm the SDUs, is that the case?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes it was to train, to establish them and train them and arm them so that they can protect the community because we wouldn't be responsible for defending them or protecting them but we had to train them and show that they are doing this job of protecting.

MR MAPOMA: In Cape Town?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: In Cape Town, more especially the neighbouring townships because when Chris Hani was talking to us he mentioned those places because in my place of residence it was more like a stronghold of African National Congress so the apartheid regime would always attack this place in the '90s as it was also happening in the other areas.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mamani, please, please answer the question.  Just answer the question.  If a question is simple, just give a simple answer, straightforward answer, please do that.  Now when you left Cape Town for an operation in the Eastern Cape you were intending to come and get firearms here to arm the SDUs in Cape Town, is that not the case?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you got the firearms from the Eastern Cape, none of those firearms were taken to Cape Town, is that not so?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Those are the firearms that I'm talking about that we had given to Comrade Dalasile, all those firearms were from the Eastern Cape.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, the firearms, all the pistols which were taken from the police were left in the Eastern Cape, you left with the machine guns and other big guns back to Cape Town.  All those that you kept, you took or robbed from the police stations were left with Ndota in the Eastern Cape, is that not your evidence?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: This what happened, we looked at these firearms that we had acquired and we had to say yes all of firearms were needed in Cape Town because of the large number of people we decided to take the sub-machine guns and leave Ndota with the pistols because we had a belief that at least a pistol is not a firearm that is difficult to find.  The firearms that were scarce were only the sub-machine guns therefore we couldn't rely also on the pistols.  We decided to leave the pistols with Ndota and take the sub-machine guns with us.

MR MAPOMA: But those sub-machine guns are the sub-machine guns which you left with from Cape Town, am I wrong?  When you left Cape Town, you were not armed?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No we were not armed.

MR MAPOMA: So these, these ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't you just collect those firearms or sub-machine guns from Eastern Cape and go back to Cape Town?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It is because after getting all these firearms at that they also wanted the firearms because he wanted to establish the same structures as ours in the Eastern Cape therefore we decided to give him a start with the pistols and we told them that at least we were going to give him these pistols because they were not very scarce in his region.

MR MAPOMA: Now, okay let's leave that one.  Now let's come to Frankfort.  Is it your evidence that the only policeman who was shot there is the one who was outside, the one who ran away?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The policeman who was shot was the one who was outside, the one who was sleeping in the police van.

MR MAPOMA: So when you were inside is it your evidence that you did not shoot the policeman who was inside?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The policeman who was inside was not shot and no one shot at this policeman but after kicking the door open, we shot in the house that is why the firearm was on the other side and the policeman was crying with his hands up on the other side of the room.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying this policeman just handed that firearm immediately when there was a shot fired inside?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I did not see his actions, how did he lose his firearm but I saw the firearm on the floor but I did not know how did that happen but I thought that because of the shock he threw the gun on the floor because at some stage this firearm was between his legs before this incident.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying none of you grabbed the firearm from him?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No I do not remember anyone gripping this firearm, I remember that this 9 mm pistol was on the floor and he was on the other side crying and there was shooting outside and there was confusion.

MR MAPOMA: When you got inside what firearm were you having, you personally?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was armed with the Uzzi sub-machine gun.

MR MAPOMA: Is there anyone who was carrying a pistol?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No, no one was having a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when you went outside after you heard those shots, did you see this person who was supposedly running away?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I saw this policeman getting out of the van and we wrestled and I saw him lying down but I did not look at his face, I just saw this person who was lying down.

CHAIRPERSON: After the shots?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's when you got the explanation that he was attempting to escape?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When I heard the gunshots outside, when I looked Nomabise told me that this person was running away that is why he was shooting at him because he was resisting and he was not co-operating.  I did not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Then you saw this person lying on the ground?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mamani, the policeman who was inside the premises of the police station is here today and he has made a statement which is contained in pages 26 and 27 of the bundle of documents which have been paginated and I would like your comment here on what he says in his statement.  On page 26 in line number 11 if the Committee would bear with me, line number 11, he says there, I will read for you and I would like to have your comment:
"The one who had a pistol advanced towards me and as he reached me he tried to grab my pistol and I refused and we struggled over it until we got out of the charge office."
What is your comment to this, do you agree with what he says?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The policeman who was inside the charge office, his firearm was on the floor, I disagree with this statement.  When I got in I saw the firearm on the floor.

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Matiso will say if he is called to testify that he was shot three times, one on the shoulder and on the thigh and then on the stomach during that day and he was severely injured and he had to be admitted in Cecilia Makhiwane Hospital.  He is the policeman who was inside whom you said was never injured.  What do you say to that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Maybe my memory is not serving me correctly but I am saying this and this is how I remember this incident.  The only policeman who was injured was the one who was outside in the police van.  The one who was inside was not hurt.