Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

JOB NDALANDA: Because I didn't know where Mbcoto was working and we heard that they assault people, people get injured.
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You can't join something which you don't know.

MS SEROKE: Secondly in Tweefontein you are saying that these people were attacking people driving cars.  What was the reason behind it because you also say that they were assisted by police.

JOB NDALANDA: I also don't understand because there were no riots in our area.  It was quiet.  We were surprised to see them attacking us.  That day there were no unrests.

MS SEROKE: What happened before which made them to start attacking you?

JOB NDALANDA: When these riots and unrest started after that there were riots all over Kwandebele but in Kwaggafontein there was nothing at that time.  It was strong in other areas of Kwandebele.

MS SEROKE: When you say that when they started this could you please explain to us what kind of war.

JOB NDALANDA: Actually Mbcoto it is the one who started beating up people, threatening people until people got angry and they decided to defend themselves.

MS SEROKE: Can you please explain to us the manner of their defence, how they used to defend themselves.

JOB NDALANDA: How they defended themselves?  Because these  people were entering in these areas with weapons, they also took weapons to defend themselves.

MS SEROKE: This place called Magasine, we heard about it a lot in these hearings.  What was happening there?

JOB NDALANDA: Magasine is a government place where government officials stay so there is a big hall in that area and that is where these people used to meet.

MS SEROKE: Is it the same like Seobuswa because are talking about Seobuswa.  Are you talking about the same hall,
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Magasine or Seobuswa or Kwaggafontein B, not Seobuswa.  You say they assaulted you, they have beaten you up, they were putting balaclavas, they removed those balaclavas and you recognised them.  Did you count those people?  Their names?

JOB NDALANDA: No, now I have not given you their names.

MS SEROKE: Could you please tell us their names.

JOB NDALANDA: The people who came to pick me up it was Stephans Nkosana, Platklas Mguni, Mziswa, I have forgotten his name, Mgendu.   It was Kuswa Mahlangu.  Those are the people who picked me up but along the way when we arrived at G block that is where I saw them.

MS SEROKE: You saw them doing what?   Who were they?

JOB NDALANDA: The whole Mbcoto group.

MS SEROKE: Tell us their names.

JOB NDALANDA: It was Makawa and Majozi, Mgoma, Mtinmunya.  Those are the people whom I recognised.  Mkwane.

MS SEROKE: You also said in your statement you witnessed when Jabulani Malaza was being shot.  Who shot him?

JOB NDALANDA: Majozi shot at him.

MS SEROKE: You also said you laid a charge firstly you gave a statement, during the time you were giving a statement did you mention their names in the first statement in Kwaggafontein?

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, I gave those names.

MS SEROKE: When coming to the second statement you realised that it was not a statement which you gave to the police can you remember what was not there in the second statement?

JOB NDALANDA: The difference was that the person who wrote the statement said - it said we were fighting, we were throwing stones at Mbcoto, that is why Mbcoto started
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shooting at us.

MS SEROKE: That was the second statement?

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, it was the second statement.

MS SEROKE: It was in conflict with the first statement.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes.

MS SEROKE: What did Stemmet say to you when you said this is not the statement which I have given to the police?

JOB NDALANDA: He said to me he was sent by the government which was there and they told me to change the statement and the second statement was saying that I agree with Mbcoto, there is nothing that they were doing wrong.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just to be absolutely clear now you say that you saw Mbcoto members and in particular you saw Majozi Mahlangu shoot at people.  You actually saw that yourself, firing at people.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, I saw it.

RUSSELL ALLY: And did you see any person fall as a result of that shot being fired?

JOB NDALANDA: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now in the court case you say that the statements were changed.  Now I want to know if you can recall was ...

JOB NDALANDA: Ja, I still remember well, they changed the statement.

RUSSELL ALLY: You say the person who changed the statement was Stemmet.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, it was Stemmet.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the statement was changed to say that Mbcoto was firing in self defence.  The statement didn't deny that Mbcoto actually fired at people, is that correct?

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, they said Mbcoto was defending itself, we provoked Mbcoto but according to our own statement Mbcoto
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attacked us first.

RUSSELL ALLY: The Mbcoto people did not deny shooting, they said that they did shoot but that they had shot in self defence. Is that what you say?

JOB NDALANDA: No, I am not saying that.  Actually they attacked.  There were no fights at that time.

RUSSELL ALLY: I am not asking what you saw, I am saying what Mbcoto said.  They didn't deny shooting, all they said was that we shot in self defence.  That is what Mbcoto said, not you.  Mbcoto said we shot in self defence.   And just to be absolutely clear again, you are saying that when Mbcoto fired on people this was completely unprovoked, that people had not been throwing stones at them or had not been attacking or doing anything to them, was that what you ...

JOB NDALANDA: No.  We never did anything to them.

MR MALAN: Mr Ndalanda, you said that they came to your house, they kicked open the door, they broke the door down and they asked you to join them voluntarily.  Is that correct?

JOB NDALANDA: They never kicked the door.  At the first time they didn't kick the door.

MR MALAN: According to your statement it says they broke the door and took me by force and then they asked me to join them.  This is what the statement taker wrote down.  Is that not correct?

JOB NDALANDA: No, it is not correct.

MR MALAN: It was quiet at the time, there was peace, there was no fighting when this happened, that specific day that Mrs Seroke asked you about.  There was no fighting at the time.

JOB NDALANDA: No.
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MR MALAN: But I get the impression that you sort of indicated, because you say no fighting with us we have not been fighting with them, were you in some way on the other side or working with the comrades, was that a perception maybe of the Mbcoto?

JOB NDALANDA: No.  I was not working with the comrades.

MR MALAN: There was no affiliations?

JOB NDALANDA: No.

MR MALAN: One further question.  You say in your statement that you saw the shooting by Majozi Mahlangu and you also say that Van Niekerk arrived in his car.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, it is true.

MR MALAN: And they went and put weapons in Van Niekerk's car.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes.

MR MALAN: So Van Niekerk was all with them according to your understanding of the situation.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, it is an indication that he was together with them.  I only saw his car, vehicle standing there and they took their guns and put them in his car.

MR MALAN: Did you see it personally, with your own eyes?

JOB NDALANDA: Yes.

MR MALAN: You saw both of them, Majozi and Van Niekerk with your own eyes on that day.

JOB NDALANDA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a policeman?

JOB NDALANDA: Yes, I was a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: ....your work as a policeman and that of Mbcoto.

JOB NDALANDA: Ja, I see the difference because working for the people was not a threat to anyone.  Whenever I arrest
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anyone, whenever I arrest anyone we were working for the chief, under the chief's rule.