Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

ADV SANDI: You said you were trained in Fort Beaufort.  Fort Beaufort is not a very small place, where exactly did you receive training there?

WINILE VEVEZA: At Khaka, in the bushes, Khaka.

ADV SANDI: How long did that training take?

WINILE VEVEZA: It can six or eight months.

ADV SANDI: Who was being trained with you?

WINILE VEVEZA: There were a lot people that were trained with me, Luazi, Mzuamadoda and other members of the PAC in Fort Beaufort.

ADV SANDI: Was anyone of your co-applicants trained with you?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Which one?

WINILE VEVEZA: Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

ADV SANDI: So what is the difference now here.  We have this long list of previous convictions about you here, what is the difference between that and what you are now asking for amnesty for?

WINILE VEVEZA: The difference is what I've done now I did for PAC because I was commanded to do this as member of the PAC, by the member of the PAC.  Those that I did before I didn't do them for PAC, nobody told me to do them.
	I did them even though I was told that they were not right, but because I was smuggling I did those things.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I'm sorry.  There's just one issue I want to still canvass.  If the Chairperson can allow me.
	Mr Veveza, you were a member of the PAC as far back as 1985 until you were arrested for this particular incident for which you seek amnesty, is that correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.  It was not in 1985, it was in 1988.

MR MAPOMA: But in your amnesty application you said from 1985 until you were arrested, on page 2 of your application.  Is it incorrect what is here?

WINILE VEVEZA: It was not from 1985.  I was in prison in 1985.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, anyway let's say even from 1988 the other criminal activities you engaged in you were engaged in them while you were still a member of the PAC, is that correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you knew that the PAC does not stand for those acts for which you were sentenced, is that  so?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact when you went to rob a cafe after the Franciscato incident, you knew that that was not an APLA operation, isn't it so?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact APLA or PAC was ...[intervention]

WINILE VEVEZA: PAC.

MR MAPOMA: Ja.  ... didn't have - those actions were in conflict with the PAC policy?

WINILE VEVEZA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So when you were a PAC cadre, at some stage you used to get into your personal criminal activities, is that correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, Mr Veveza, you said you joined the PAC in 1988.

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in 1990 you joined this task force, correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were directly answerable to Mabuti under the command of Duma and perhaps even Dlamini, correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Mabuti was from APLA outside.  I was inside under Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time you were in constant contact with these people, correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you first joined them, do I understand you correctly?

WINILE VEVEZA: I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the time you were being trained in firearms etc., in 1990?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was trained to use firearms when I was trained for the task, when I joined the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was in 1990?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What part of 1990 did that occur?  Was it in the early part of 1990 or in the late part or whatever?  I'm looking for a date or at least a month.

WINILE VEVEZA: I started in April 1990, when I joined task force.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did the training last?

WINILE VEVEZA: If I remember well it took seven months because it ranges from six to eight months.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I ask this question is because you started a prison sentence of eight months on the 24th of August 1990 and you were away from the activities of the task force for eight months, until the 15th of April 1991 when you were freed on parole.  Do you recall that?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I do recall that but that is why I'm saying I'm not sure whether it was in 1990 or in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you not sure of?

WINILE VEVEZA: I'm not sure when I joined the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: It's the first time you're saying you weren't sure of that.  In any event ...[intervention]

WINILE VEVEZA: I did say that from the start, that I was not sure whether I joined in 1990 or 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a member of the PAC prior to that, now didn't you have to explain to any of your superiors where you'd been?  A member just gets missing, he spends eight months in prison, was there no way that you informed the superiors or that they asked you: "Man, you're a member of this organisation but you disappear now and then and nobody knows what's going on"?

WINILE VEVEZA: I couldn't do that, I couldn't tell them when I did my personal things because I wouldn't put this on their shoulders but I would tell when I came back that I'm from a certain place.

CHAIRPERSON: Which would not be the truth?

WINILE VEVEZA: I would tell them the truth when I was coming back.  I wouldn't tell them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: From prison?  Would you tell your superiors in the organisation that you'd just come from prison?

WINILE VEVEZA: That was not an important thing to do.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not too sure that you're right because I would imagine any organisation who was running a struggle, particularly an armed struggle, would be very careful about the quality of the people they had within their operation, but that's besides the point.  You are saying you did not disclose where you came from. to them or did you?

WINILE VEVEZA: What I'm saying is, when I would be arrested I wouldn't tell PAC that I was arrested because ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But when you came back to the PAC or the task force ...[intervention]

WINILE VEVEZA: But when I came back I would tell them that.  If they asked where I was all the time, I would then tell them that I was from prison and I would tell them why I was in prison and they would say that those were things that I was not supposed to do when I was a member of PAC.  I should be careful about such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell me why do we have to struggle to get that kind of answer out of you?  It's a simple question, a simple answer.

WINILE VEVEZA: If you listened carefully I answered this question the way I just answered.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So you just repeated yourself, correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I repeated myself.

CHAIRPERSON: How many operations were you involved in under the auspices of that task force which you joined in 1990 or 1991?

WINILE VEVEZA: I made one application, this one.  If I was involved in other operations I would have made applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  That's a smart answer.

WINILE VEVEZA: I wouldn't make an application for something that I was not ordered to do by the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, do I assume then by your answer that the operation regarding the shooting and robbing of Mr Franciscato is the one and only operation that you were involved in under the auspices of this task force?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do in the task force since 1990 then?  This operation occurred in 1992, in September.

WINILE VEVEZA: What happened in September.

CHAIRPERSON: You went to Cato's house and he got killed and you took firearms at approximately 5 o'clock that night.  The same day you went to rob that shop, that's what happened on that day.  Do you follow?