Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I am not aware, such things were never said to me.  I believe it was done after the disclosure of the CCB, because they wouldn't have known before the time about the existence of the CCB.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I think though the point is, you came from a military culture, you were in the permanent Force, you'd been there for many years.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You had professional training as a soldier, built up over many years.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The Defence Force is now going to involve itself in the most covert possible activities within the borders of South Africa, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now doesn't it strike you as a bit - let me put the question in another way.  Why didn't you make use of your own experienced, trained professionals to carry out those operations instead of bringing in ex-policemen?

CHAIRPERSON: The "you" there is referring to the CCB?

MR KAHANOVITZ: The CCB, not you personally, yes.

WOUTER J BASSON: Well Chairperson, I was not the Managing Director of the CCB, I could not take decisions about who should be used internally, the prerogative was with Mr Verster, he thought it was a good idea to use Mr Burger and his people and that's what the situation was.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your feeling about the use of non-military people being employed?  What did you personally feel when you were introduced to - learnt that you were getting people from outside the military?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I had to adapt to it as well because I think it's well known that the Police and the Defence Force culture is not really hundred percent the same, it's not really similar, but that was my order, it was a task and it wasn't up to me to question whether these people were suitable or not.  I accepted that they were capable, that they could perform their tasks and I dealt with it accordingly.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, except you were put in the invidious position of being the person who had to manage them, as their Co-ordinator.

WOUTER J BASSON: Well that was my work, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now while we're on that point, about this agreement between the South African Police and the Defence Force, that there would be this six month period of grace if one moved over from the Police to the Defence Force or vice versa, why would that have to apply in the case of people who were moving over into an organisation that was ostensibly, had nothing to do with the Defence Force?  What's the logic?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I have no knowledge about that stage of affairs, I cannot on such a regulation that existed, I have no knowledge of that.  As far as I'm concerned you can resign and you can work for another State institution.  Why there should be a time period, I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, no, I'm not asking you why there was that rule, I understand it was something to prevent poaching between the Defence Force and the South African Police.  The simply point is, the image, the picture that you were trying to create at that time was not that these people were moving into the Defence Force, the picture that you were trying to create was that they were moving into an area that was entirely unrelated to the Defence Force.  Do you agree with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Well the objective was - yes, that was the objective, but you cannot say that they were not recruited for the Defence Force, or specifically the CCB.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Anyway, I was trying to understand the logic ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But the Defence Force would never have owned up to them working for them.

WOUTER J BASSON: Excuse, please repeat the question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: The Defence Force would never have acknowledged that they worked for them.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And to all intents and purposes they didn't work for them, they worked for - they worked privately.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, as a result of the covert structure, yes.

MR LAX: So in a way by making them wait six months before they could do anything you might even create the impression that they were Defence Force people, rather than avoid it.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I don't agree, the persons needed that time because lots of attention would have been paid to them and people couldn't have been able to assume that they were involved with other State institutions, they had to spend that time to appear credible after their resignation from the Police.

MR LAX: Well you see that's a much more logical explanation for why they did no active work for six months and rather worked on developing their cover, but that means they were developing their cover as part of the CCB.

WOUTER J BASSON: That was the purpose.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you will have heard mention during cross-examination of previous witness that the Harms Commission found that there was a project to assassinate an attorney in Durban by the name of Mr Mhlaba and I'll just read you one line from Judge Harms' finding.
"What is certain however, is that on 4 March 1989, du Plooy (that's the reference to someone with the administrative name of Shane du Plooy) prepared a document dealing with the elimination of Mr Mhlaba by means of poison.  The poison was to be administered on 13 March 1989."
Now Mr Nel confirmed to the Truth Commission that there was indeed such a plan to assassinate Mr Mhlaba in Natal, do you agree with him?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson.  I became aware of this case when I read the documents, but I deny that Region 6 or myself were at all involved in this project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's very strange because Mr Nel's evidence was that you came to him to ask him to gather information on Mr Mhlaba.

WOUTER J BASSON: I deny that, I'm not aware of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see if someone was going to be killed in Natal, that would fall within Region 6's area of concern, you agree with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, it's true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if there was indeed such a plot, in the ordinary course of events you would have been the person who would approach Mr Nel to obtain such information as may be required.  If there had been such a plot.

WOUTER J BASSON: I would have been the person, Chairperson, but I deny that myself or Region 6 were involved in that attempt.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says that you also asked him for a print-out on J Naidoo.

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  You don't dispute that?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether you did or didn't?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it's difficult to remember. It could be that, as I've explained before, to hide the real objective of the inquiry I also named other activists and it could be in this case that Mr J Naidoo's was mentioned but it was only a cover-story with the aim not to do anything with it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I just deal with this notion that  you would want to sow confusion in the minds of the people who were furnishing you with intelligence.  You say you would give a list of names, only one of which would be the real target.  Is that your evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes what I'm saying is, when we identified a person from the priority list then it was not only his details that were asked for but also five other members on the list, for the sake of the argument.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but when it comes to someone like Mr Nel who is the Intelligence Officer of the CCB itself, there's no reason for him to not know what's going on.  In fact, he should know what's going on.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were trying to confuse him as well?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, because this is about secrecy.  If in a month's time or two something would happen to a person I enquired about, he would put two and two together and he'd say that it was me.