Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: To be fair to you, you mentioned him in the sense that he was part of the group who committed these drive-by shootings, therefore one can say that he was part of a gang.  Seen in this light, do you still ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did explain that there must have been a mistake made by myself when the statement was taken.

MR LOWIES: No, but you made the same mistake yesterday, that's the point - Monday.  Why when it was taken and Monday?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember being asked that question.

MR LOWIES: So if you said so on Monday, it was also a mistake?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I'm saying is, I do not recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you indicate to us where ...

MR LOWIES: The question was relating to who the fellow attackers were, and then he mentioned, he started off with Hunter Ndlovo - I think Michael was mentioned second, Mr Chairman.  You will also recall that there was an objection regarding a leading question when this was asked, but only after this was mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  My colleague has a note here which indicates that amongst the persons that you mentioned who were with you on the attack in Sebokeng, you mentioned Michael.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I may have mentioned him, but the person who was present then was Ntlantla Xinde.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No, no, we understand that but - is the question whether he was making a, he made a mistake yesterday as well?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Do you understand the question?  You see you've told us that it was a mistake on your part when you spoke to the person who took the statement from you, to mention that Michael Ramakau was also present in the Sebokeng and Everton attacks, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what's being put to you is the following;  when you told this Committee that Michael was present - I think this was during your evidence-in-chief, you're making a mistake as well.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.  I must have made a mistake, he was not present.

MR LOWIES: But it goes further.  The very next question after this, the one that we've debated, was whether the people in the car also took part in the shootings, and your evidence was quite clear that you can remember that Michael Ramakau was present, but you cannot recall that Victor Kheswa was present.  Sorry, may I retract?
	 Sorry, the question was whether the people in the car took part in the Boipatong massacre two days later and you said you can still very well remember Michael Ramakau, but you cannot recall whether Kheswa was part of that.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say that.  I do not remember Victor Kheswa being present at the Boipatong attack.

MR LOWIES: But the question relates to Michael Ramakau.  It seems like you made the same mistake on two occasions to two different questions.  And in you tendered to this question the name of Ramakau.  What is your explanation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It must have been a mistake.  Michael Ramakau was not present in the Sebokeng attack.

MR LOWIES: Where does Michael Ramakau reside?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He resides at Small Farm.

MR LOWIES: Where did he reside in June 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At that time he lived at KwaMadala  Hostel.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you that he did not reside there, Sir, and that is why you're trying to take him out of the fact, out of the gang who was - wait I'm still busy - why you're trying to take him out of the gang who did the drive-by shootings, because he was not a hostel dweller.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true, Michael Ramakau resided at the hostel, he was an IFP member.  He left Small Farm for the hostel.

MR LOWIES: And now he's back in Boipatong, is that what you're saying?

MR LAX: He said he's back in Small Farm.

MR LOWIES: In Small Farm.  It's my mistake.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That person is late, he is deceased.

MR LOWIES: Where did he reside when he passed away?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I last knew the person to be residing at KwaMadala Hostel.  I did not check where he was all the time.

MR LOWIES: But why did you then give the answer when I asked you about his residence, to say that he stayed in Small Farm?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was not always with Michael Ramakau, but I know that he was born at Small Farm.  That is where his home was.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where he resided before going to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you, Sir, that you yourself did not reside in the hostel when these drive-by shootings occurred, just like Ramakau.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true.  It is not true that I did not reside at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: You heard the evidence of some of the applicants, the other applicants.  My question is, whose evidence did you hear?  We know about Buthelezi, who else that you can recall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that I do not know the names of the other co-applicants, but there were many people who gave evidence before the Committee.

MR LOWIES: Would you be able today to identify Buthelezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Would you be able to identify all the applicants who gave evidence?  Firstly, all the applicants who gave evidence in your absence and all the applicants who gave evidence after you arrived, today?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, let's just get to the point.  The applicant came to the hearings, he may not have been sitting in the hall, but sitting in another room where he was watching the proceedings.  Now what is the  issue?

MR LOWIES: The issue is he may not know some of them and if he was there since '91, one would have expected him to do so.  And it's part and parcel of our defence that he was not there as a hostel dweller before '91 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ...

MR LOWIES: ... after '91, during '91, sorry Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is it your instruction that everyone who was at the hostel knew one another?

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: But at least you expect Mr Nosenga to know everyone at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Well Chairman, my submission is the following; if they were in leadership positions, surely he would because he was a member of the IFP, on his version.  You know because they stand out, I mean it's not like a normal child or whatever, they stand ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well why don't you ask him about this, because when you ask him about everyone who gave evidence, some of those who gave evidence were not in leadership positions.  That's why I'm saying let's get to the person you want to ask him about.

MR LOWIES: As you please, Chair.  Could you just bear with me for a minute?  With your permission, may I just canvass another aspect whilst we're looking for a certain document?
	Mr Nosenga, was Mtwana Zulu present when you attacked the people in Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mtwana Zulu was not present when we attacked the people at Sebokeng.  He issued the command, but he was not present when the attack was carried out.

MR LOWIES: Can I summarise this?  He was never present during any attack that you participated in? - to your knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what he said.  That's not what he's saying.

MR LOWIES: I'm asking, Chair, I'm not putting it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you're saying you're summarising what he's saying.

MR LOWIES: Could I rephrase?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Can I ask you this.  To your knowledge, was Mtwana Zulu ever present during an attack where you took part?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: With regards to the Sebokeng incident, he was not present, but the role that he played was that he issued the order.  With regards to the Boipatong incident, I did see him.