Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

DATE: 03 FEBRUARY 1998

HELD AT: CAPE TOWN

<UNKNOWN>: W R BELLINGAN

CASE NO: AM5283/97

<UNKNOWN>: T J  MBELO

CASE NO: AM3785/96

DAY: 1
 
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood, we had stood this matter down till 11'o clock.  It's now eight minutes past eleven.  What is the reason for this further delay?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV J MOSES: I beg your pardon.  I was told that the mike was not on.  My Lord, members of the Committee, we have heard, as I have informed you in chambers of problems with regard to the conducting of proper consultations in this matter. Because of practical and logistical problems my client has only arrived yesterday and last night was the only time that we could really consult meaningfully in relation to this matter.
	I know that I have requested an adjournment, or that the matter stand down for about an hour and that you have given me until 11 'o clock.  It is now a few minutes past eleven and I can only but humbly apologise for causing that delay.  I am really sorry and I undertake that that will not happen again, my Lords, members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV J MOSES: If I may proceed, Chairperson, my Lord, members of the Committee.  As I have already indicated, myself and Ms P Berlin will be assisting Mr Mbane in reading his evidence to this Committee and before this Committee.  The evidence, as you all know, relates and as we were made to understand, relates to the incident commonly referred to as the Guguletu 7.
	Ms Berlin is a Masters student at the University of Lundt in Sweden and because of the fact that this is a Legal Aid instruction, I had had the benefit, together with Mr Mbane, of Ms Berlin's voluntary assistance.  It was discussed with Mr Mbane and he does not have any objection, subject to the Committee's approval, that Ms Berlin indeed assist us, and especially given the short time that we had had to properly prepare for this matter, we are, Mr Mbane and myself, are indeed indebted to Ms Berlin's assistance.  
	My Lords, Chairperson, we propose that Ms Berlin will lead the introductory evidence of Mr Mbane which I will refer to as the first section of his evidence, and I will thereafter, with your permission, take over to lead the read the rest of his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moses, I am told when you first introduced yourself, your microphone was not on.  Will you please re-introduce yourself, for the sake of the record?

ADV J MOSES: As it pleases the Committee.  My name is Advocate Joey Moses and I am a member of the Cape Bar.  I have been asked to appear on behalf of - assist Mr Mbane in leading and giving his testimony to this Committee in the application, or the amnesty application of Wilhelm Riaan Bellingan and Tapelo Johannes Mbelo.
	If that suffice, my Lord, members of the Committee, and before my client would be asked to administer the oath, there is just one preliminary issue which I would like to deal with, with the permission of the Chairperson and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you do that I have been told, for some reason it escapes me at the moment, that the other counsel also asked to put themselves on record, which they did at the commencement of the proceedings.  I am not sure that Mr van der Merwe did so.  His name doesn't appear on the first couple of pages of the record, I don't think, but for the sake of the thing, could you all please repeat the performance.

MR BOOYENS: Kobus Booyens, instructed by Francois van der Merwe for the Applicant, Mr Bellingan, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Peter Williams of the firm E Moosa, Wagley & Petersen, acting on behalf of the second applicant in this matter.

UNKNOWN: Schalk Hugo, of the firm Solomon, Nicholson, Rhyno & Verster, and I am acting on behalf of the witness, Eugene de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a second Mr Williams?

UNKNOWN: Thank you your Lordship.  Brent Williams, Y. Ebrahim & Company, we act on behalf of the families of the Guguletu 7.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: R. Patel, leader of evidence for the Amnesty Committee.

ADV J MOSES: If I may then proceed, Chairperson.  As I have indicated there is a preliminary issue with which I would like to deal with your permission.  I have taken the liberty of preparing a very brief summary of the main points which I would like to make before Mr Mbane is requested to take the oath, and with your leave, may I ask to hand this to the members of the Committee, as well as to my colleagues.
	If I may, Chairperson, these submissions are, or were, prepared on the basis or on the premise that the members of the Committee as well as my learned colleagues are indeed in possession of a statement which was prepared and which was apparently taken from Mr Mbane by the investigating unit of the Commission, which statement I am informed and instructed is indeed in the possession of the members of the Committee and the various legal representatives.
	The statement which I have been given and the original which has been signed is up to paragraph 59, Chairperson, and I mention that because we have also been furnished with, inter alia, volume two of the bundle of documents before you, where under the index, item number 9, which would be the first on the front page of volume 2, would be Frank Mbane's affidavit. And you will see, Chairperson, that according to that copy, or that affidavit, it is neither signed and it runs up to paragraph 65.  I am told and I have just been handed the original which, the signature had been confirmed by my client and that original only contains 59 paragraphs and I am mentioning that because that will be used as the basis for the evidence of Mr Mbane.

CHAIRPERSON: I am a little confused on this volume two, Frank Mbane's affidavit.  Mine runs, paragraph 36 jumps to paragraph 64.

ADV J MOSES: That is indeed so my Lord, members of the
Committee, and that is why, before we proceed, I needed to get clarity whether the Committee members as well as the legal representatives have indeed been furnished with a true copy of the actual affidavit of Mr Mbane, or the actual statement of Mr Mbane.
	And I have to apologise for the confusion, but I was also confused when I was furnished with these different affidavits and that is why I need to correct that before we proceed with these proceedings.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which one are you going to use then, Mr Moses?

ADV J MOSES: The one which I have in my possession, it starts with "Statement sworn under oath" and starts with paragraph 1 up to and including paragraph 59.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Moses, it would seem if one takes a look at...let's call the one that finishes at 59 the affidavit, and the other one the statement, that they are the same up until 36, if you turn to paragraph 36 in both, they seem to be exactly the same on the same - the page starts with the same word and ends with the same word, but then if you turn to the ending of the affidavit, the last page where the signature is on the affidavit, it is completely different to the ending where the signature ought to have been on the statement, so it looks like there has been some change from the start of paragraph 36 to the end, and that seems a bit of a mystery, doesn't it...one doesn't know what's contained from 36 to 59, but it might or might not be the same.  And it might not be the same if one takes a look at the ending where it's not just an omission.

ADV J MOSES: That is indeed so, my Lord, I have been instructed that the statement which we could refer to as the affidavit and which runs up to paragraph 59, that that affidavit is, that statement is indeed the statement which was signed by Mr Mbane, and that is why I have requested...

CHAIRPERSON: There is something very wrong with the sound system.