Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen I would like to get an indication from Mr Vally as to which way we go.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.  The attorneys and counsel for Drs Mijburgh and Basson has indicated that he needs a bit more time this morning, so we will start off with Dr Goosen and then after Dr Goosen's evidence has been led and he has been cross-examined we will hear the reply to the argument raised yesterday by Mr Cilliers.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VALLY: I see another problem.  I don't see Mr Polsen here.  Mr Polsen is the attorney for Mr Goosen, Dr Goosen I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Dr Goosen here?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman Gen Knobel is also here. We are ready to continue and he can continue, just to save time.

MR VALLY: ...in going ahead, but it may be wise to wait for his attorney.  I assume there was a presumption by people that there would be the reply to the legal argument this morning and that's why Mr Polsen is not here.

CHAIRPERSON: There should be no presumption, the matter was adjourned to 9 o'clock for everybody.  How do you want to play it then?

MR VALLY: If you will excuse me for a few minutes I just want to confer with my colleagues.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman here is Mr Polsen.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Du Plessis.
 Mr Polsen welcome.

MR POLSEN: We are late this morning, unfortunately ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It happens to most of us.  Good morning and welcome Dr Goosen.  Before I ask Advocate Potgieter to swear you in may I just introduce one member of the panel who has not been with us but is with us today.  To my extreme right, and as we always say it has nothing to do with their politics, it is Mrs Yasmin Sooka.  She is the Deputy Chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee.  She is a Commissioner and she is based in the Johannesburg office.
 We have knowledge also of the presence of the Chief Executive Officer of the Commission who is in the hall here and who is looking after the interests of the Commission in making sure that using taxpayers money irresponsibly.  Welcome Chief Executive Officer and Chief Accounting Officer.
 Is it Mr Chaskalson or is it Mr Vally.

MR CHASKALSON: I will be leading Dr Goosen.

CHAIRPERSON: You will be leading Dr Goosen.  If you could get Dr Goosen then to stand up so that he can be sworn in.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Just to mention another ground rule.  You will be totally welcome Dr Goosen to express yourself in the language you are most comfortable with.  There are listening devices in the form of these head phones so that you shouldn't feel constrained at all even if questions come in English that you should reply in Afrikaans, if that's the language you would like to express yourself in.
 Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you Mr Chair.  Good morning Dr Goosen.
 Could you please tell us what your qualifications are?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Good morning Mr Chaskalson.  Yes Mr Chairman please I first have one question.  I will try and stick to English.  I can also speak Afrikaans and some Tswana, I can only swear in Sotho, so I'll stick with English.
 Mr Chair I have one legal aspect to settle.  Please I see everyone has a few problems, legalwise, and I'm not really trained in the legal field.  I have signed an oath of secrecy under the Secrecy Act of the Government, and I have also signed a document with the Surgeon-General which binds me not to disclose anything of the companies for a period of ten years, and not to be involved in any activity, in the field of activities of the companies for then years.  Now that period only expires in 1999.  Now I want to know from you, how binding will this be on me?   I have understood from the Surgeon-General way back in 1994, that those, all the matters were out in the open and we could speak freely.  I am not bound anymore.  But as I haven't yet had any written confirmation of that I would just like to hear the Commission's opinion on that.

MR POLSEN: Sorry Mr Chairman.  I think my client's concern is something which I tried to allay his fears but for the record, and let us put it on record, that I think the Act that would perhaps be applicable is Act 84 of 1982, "Act Safeguarding Information".  Now I think under the compulsion in terms of this Commission's Act it will be excusable and he will not be in difficulty as far as that Act is concerned.
 The only other Act which I think it can possibly apply is the Proliferation Act, but we've got mechanisms in place to protect the particular Act in terms of the agreement with my colleague Mr Arendse here.  
 So I don't really foresee a difficulty and for the sake of the record we've recorded the concerns by the witness.  Should he be approached at a later stage legally or otherwise his excuse will be perfectly legal.
Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well expressed Mr Polsen, and I think since it is you who is legally representing him I don't think you have to hear Mr Chaskalson on the point.  I think you are spot on.  It's on the record.  It is a sense in which I also follow your reasoning as to the protections that are built-in in the other Acts.

MR POLSEN: Thank you.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Thank you Sir.  Sorry for the interruption.  I will proceed with the answers now.
 I am for the record 47 years old.  I qualified in 1975, in April 1975 as a Veterinary Surgeon at the Veterinary School of the University of Pretoria Veterinary Faculty.
 I have also achieved postgraduate qualifications in pathology, clinical pathology in 1978.

MR CHASKALSON: Have you specialised in any medical research?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman yes, there is no formal specialisation course or qualification for medical research per se.  There are basic courses of which the ones I did in the pathology, physiology and the subjects I took for my postgraduate studies were physiology, toxicology and clinical pathology were amongst them and they was a very good basis for medical research.  Afterwards though you start off as a research worker assistant, research assistant etc and you work your way up through international publications etc, etc, to become really a skilled or qualified scientist.

MR CHASKALSON: Have you published any scientific articles either locally or internationally?