Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

MR SEMENYA: It might be that it was total disregard, you are using the word that she framed.  Now I am asking you are you saying she knowingly said these statements.

AZHAR CACHALIA: ... that the man has a medical problem, where does she get the information that the man has a medical problem?

MR SEMENYA: Maybe she will answer when she gets there, just answer my question with respect.

AZHAR CACHALIA: No, I am answering your question with respect.

MR SEMENYA: Then please give me the answer, on what basis do you say that she knowingly said those statements when she knew they were false?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I am saying that I infer that from all the facts that are available to me around this case.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We are very grateful to you and I think many people will have said that the role that you people had played was a very significant one in the struggle, and we thank you very much.  Thank you for your generosity with time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Commissioner, may I make a very brief statement to Mrs Mandela please.  I want to say to Mrs Mandela because I have not only known Mrs Mandela for years, I deeply admired and respected her.  The Cachalia and Mandela families go back a long way.
 And as I sit here, I am deeply conflicted.  There is one part of me which wants to in a sense go over and to hug you and to say let's walk away from all of this because it is a bit of a bad nightmare, but there is another part of me which says that we actually cannot go forward unless there is some level of accountability.
 I don't know in each case, what the level of responsibility of you, if at all, was in some of these cases.   But I think that for the sake I believe of your own inner tranquillity, I think it would be helpful for your own relationship with the whole community, if you are able to take, if you are able to bring it within your heart to take the Commission into your confidence when you do finally have the opportunity to testify.
 I want to say this as well, that if there is anything which I have said, factually which is wrong, and which is proved to be wrong after the Commission makes its findings, then I will unequivocal tender that point, a public apology to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what I - thank you very much.   We will take the tea break now, can we come back at twenty past.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ntombeni?  Is his lawyer here?  We are trying to find out whether you lawyer is here.  Hanif, who did you say if his lawyer is not available, who is the next?

MR VALLY: Mr Charles Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Charles Zwane.

MR VALLY: I believe he is in custody, so he should be with the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Dear friends, can you just try and respect the Chair, especially in the presence of the Deputy Speaker of the House, I want to show her that I can control or you are controllable.   Please settle.  Good morning Mr Zwane, will you please stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you speak English, thank you very much.  Welcome.

CHARLES ZWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hanif?

MS HASSEN: Mr Chairman, if I may just interject here.  My name is Hasiena Hassen, I represent Mr Charles Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Do you want to - did you agree about the affidavit and so on and there isn't an affidavit?

MR VALLY: There is a statement that Mr Zwane has made.  It should be in your file.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought Mr Joseph had made a good suggestion about how we might go about this, I don't know.

MR VALLY: Yes, I think in (indistinct) instances, we will simply submit people's affidavits and ask them questions on it.  This is not one of those cases I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Charles Bongani Zwane, how old are you?

CHARLES ZWANE: I am 27 years of age.

MS HASSEN: And you would like to speak in English, is that all right?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, of course.

MS HASSEN: All right, do you have a nickname Charles?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, I do.

MS HASSEN: What is it?

CHARLES ZWANE: (Indistinct)

MS HASSEN: Sorry I can't hear?  Do you have any other nicknames?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.  Bubu.

MS HASSEN: Bubu?  And where do you stay Charles?

CHARLES ZWANE: I stay at Orlando West.

MS HASSEN: You are currently imprisoned, am I right?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MS HASSEN: Okay.  Are you married?

CHARLES ZWANE: No, I am not married.

MS HASSEN: Do you have any children?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, I've got one.

MS HASSEN: And what sort of education do you have?

CHARLES ZWANE: Presently I am finalising my standard 10.

MS HASSEN: All right.  In your statement you state that you were a youth leader in the Soweto Youth Congress, also known as SAYCO from the late 1984, and that a fight developed between members of SAYCO, can you tell us a bit about this dispute, about this fight.

CHARLES ZWANE: I can.  In fact it was during the state of emergency if my memory still serves me well, and our function under strict rules and under difficult conditions, because people were being arrested during that time, but we became brave as the leadership of the youth of Orlando West, we held meetings.
 Unfortunately, I should think, I think that we were infiltrated by the system and it happened that some of our members fought us, we, the leadership of the youth of the branch, and that created a dispute within the branch and that created a fight within the members of the Soweto Youth Congress themselves, and it happened at that stage that some of the youths ran at Mrs Mandela's place during the course of the fight.

MS HASSEN: So you say that the youths ran to Mrs Mandela's place?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, that is right.

MS HASSEN: If I take, can I confirm that there was a dispute now between the leaders and the members of SAYCO?

CHARLES ZWANE: As I have stated, I have already said that it was.

MS HASSEN: All right, and what happened when the youth ran away to Mrs Mandela's place?

CHARLES ZWANE: I recall some young boys one or two, were sent at my place to call us that Mrs Mandela was calling us and we adhered to the call, we went to Mrs Mandela's place and we found the youth at Mrs Mandela's place and the meeting was held in which Mrs Mandela advised or interfered that we must not fight amongst ourselves as the youth of the one area.

MS HASSEN: All right.  You said you and somebody else went to this meeting, who was this Charles?

CHARLES ZWANE: It was my comrade, he was the Chairman of the branch.  By then I was his Deputy Chairman, that was Wilson Sibilwane.

MS HASSEN: Sorry what was his name?

CHARLES ZWANE: Sibilwane, or his nickname is known as Makodjo.

MS HASSEN: Makodjo?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MS HASSEN: All right, and who presided over this meeting?

CHARLES ZWANE: Mrs Mandela presided over the meeting.

MS HASSEN: Can you tell us more about what occurred at this meeting?

CHARLES ZWANE: In fact when we arrived at the meeting, there was an allegation that me and Makodjo were shooting, they told Mrs Mandela, it seems that they told Mrs Mandela that me and Makodjo were shooting them with the system's firearms, as such.

MS HASSEN: The system's firearms?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MS HASSEN: What do you mean by that?

MS HASSEN: When I am talking about the system's firearms, everything that was belonging to the Police, to the past system, to the forces of the past system.

MS HASSEN: To the government?  All right, and what was the outcome of this meeting?

CHARLES ZWANE: Well, in the meeting we agreed with Mrs Mandela that we should stop fighting as the youth of one area and we should be united together and the youth themselves suggested that we form a team which will be a symbol of unity amongst ourselves.

MS HASSEN: When you say the youth suggested that you form a team as a symbol of unity, what are you referring to?