Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

CHAIRPERSON: Order.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, certainly we haven't involved - as far as I know, ourselves from management side to recover any informer fees of the past, that we don't do in practice.  There is a specific process where the handler of an informer for instance or the investigating officer of a case, will have to prove at least by means of a proper motivation that that person will render useful services to the State and only then it will go through a channel and it will be approved.
 I must tell you that the whole procedure around informer fees has been changed considerably from the old police service to what we have today in terms of control mechanisms.  As a matter of fact I'm appearing before a Committee of Parliament every year and explaining to them exactly what projects we have, on what we are spending, how far we are, are we making progress and we are really monitoring the process to such an extent.  
 Once again I'm not saying that the system is not open for abuse, you still have the possibility of abuse in a system like that because you are talking about a Secret Services Fund, it's not open for every person to see and audit, you have a special arrangement in terms of legislation for auditing etc., etc.  
 But the bottom line is, the person who signs that claim eventually, the Assistant Commissioner and up - I explained, that person has to make 100% sure that the facts are correct and that we are indeed in a position of saying to the Auditor General later on: "We have received value for money".

YASMINE SOOKA: But then that Assistant Commissioner would obviously have to rely on the handler of the informer because it would be very difficult for him to check the facts?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I'm 100% sure what normally will happen in practice, when there are any doubts in the mind of that Assistant Commissioner, you can do the following:  he can call for the police docket or he can call for the project but the point is, that person must make sure when he is signing that document in terms of approval, that person must be 100% sure that the facts are correct and that we are indeed going to receive value for money.

YASMINE SOOKA: So in this instance the person who arranged for the payment to be made would in fact be able to tell us whether he received value for money?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: That's correct, that's correct Chairperson.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner, thank you very much, you may stand down.  Have a nice week-end.

CHAIRPERSON: We recall Charles Zwane.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, we just need about three minutes, the covering of the TV lights has come off and it's hurting our eyes here but the TV people are here to remedy the situation.
HEARING ADJOURNS
COMMISSION HAS PROBLEM WITH LIGHTS

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, will people settle?  You don't want me to keep repeating myself do you?  Order please!  Will people settle down, stop walking about or standing, thank you.
 Mr Zwane, we want to remind you that you're still under oath and we hope you have recovered, thank you.

CHARLES ZWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: We had finished - oh, I beg your pardon, we hadn't Miss ...[indistinct]

MISS: Charles, we stopped at the time when I confirmed your statement to the TRC when you were tortured to make a confession.

CHARLES ZWANE: I still recall.

MISS: We understand your emotionality herein as it was this confession that led to your conviction and to your sentence to death for nine counts of murder inter alias and 42 years collectively.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think I have the co-operation of this audience, please keep quiet, thank you.

MISS: Charles, can you tell us about this torture that you underwent and how you came about to give this confession to the police and ultimately to a Magistrate?

CHARLES ZWANE: I was arrested - as I've stated before, for the hand grenade blast at a certain house in Orlando West and I was taken to Protea Police Station where I was told I'm detained under Section 29.  I made my statement pertaining to the incident which I was arrested for and being under Section 29 - after a couple of months being there in Section 29, the officers came back and they told me that they've checked the firearm which they got from that commander and that it was used in an incident which took place at Chile's house and they stated other incidents in Soweto.
 They said I should have information because I was there with my commander in those incidents.  I disputed that but they took me in the rooms which they call: "Die Waarheid Kamer" at ...[indistinct]

MISS: Sorry, they called it: "The Waarheid Kamer"?  Yes, go ahead.  What exactly did they do to you?

CHARLES ZWANE: They choked ...[indistinct, witness disturbed]

CHAIRPERSON: Hallo, for ...[indistinct] of us, I have said to you I trust your sensitivities, this is the second occasion where you have made me doubt your judgment.

MISS: Are you all right?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, I'll continue.

MISS: Okay, take your time and tell me what they did to you.

CHARLES ZWANE: They put me in the room, there were two officers and I still recall the one by the name of Havenga, they put the electronic on both my ...[inaudible] fingers and I tried to resist that electronic shock - I said nothing.  They took it out and they put it on my toes, I couldn't take it and I was forced by the consequences to admit the crimes I have never committed.

MISS: Charles?

CHAIRPERSON: I think just give him a moment to recover.
 You do want to go on?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

CHARLES ZWANE: Then the following day I was taken to the Magistrate to make that statement to acknowledge the crimes I never committed.  I did as they ...[indistinct] because I knew at their hands at Section 29 they could kill me, they could do anything and my parents couldn't visit me or see me.   To save my life I did as they wanted and as a result I'm here today.

MISS: Charles, in effect you were forced to confess to 38 charges including 9 of murder, 22 counts of attempted murder, arson, possession of firearms and ammunition?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MISS: I want to continue to your trial within the trial, it was stated that you never alleged to any family members that you were tortured, that you never visited a doctor and that you never laid a charge against any policeman for this torture, can you explain this?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, I will try.  I was an activist and I knew what you would undergo if you are detained under Section 29 and that was my second time.  They allowed my parents to visit me twice but I couldn't tell my parents because they were going to leave me there and no-one was there to help me.
 Being a detainee under Section 29, when you see the doctors and you report that they assaulted you, the doctor will take that thing and show it to them and then you will be continuously tortured by these people, so I took no chance to tell anyone until a later stage when I was charged and I then informed my uncle.

MISS: You say you informed your uncle, who was this?

CHARLES ZWANE: David Zwane.

MISS: David Zwane.  Did you ever tell your girlfriend?

CHARLES ZWANE: She wasn't given permission to visit me.

MISS: Charles, I just want to allude you to your alleged evidence in your confession when you said that Mrs Chile's house was bombed because the Mandela United Football Club wanted revenge for the killing of Maxwell Madondo, the Mandela Football Club believe that Sibusiso Chile killed Madondo.  Do you know anything about this?