Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  We're about to start the proceedings.  Just for the purposes of the record, today is Monday the 23rd of November 1998.  It is a session of the Amnesty Committee, presided over by myself, Denzil Potgieter.  I'm assisted by Advocate Gcabashe on my right and Advocate Sandi on my left.
	We will be hearing a number of applications over the next three weeks or so, relating to certain activities of what is referred to as Self Defence Units in the area of Thokoza.
	Advocate Steenkamp, is there anything that you want to place on record?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, as far as the requirements of Section 19.4 is concerned, I would like to ask your permission just to place a few comments on record.
	The first being Mr Chairman, that as far as the requirements of Section 19.4 goes, this is now the notices to victims basically, there were certain problems and difficulties which we had to overcome to meet the requirements.  As far as I am concerned, Mr Chairman, we have met them.  We have taken reasonable steps to inform the victims.  
	The first problem being that none of the applicants as far as I am concerned, have referred to any victims.  What was done is that the investigation Unit of the Amnesty Committee was asked to search and find out or get more details about victims.  This was done.  No victims could be traced as far as certain of the applicants go but what I endeavour to is, as each and every applicant is testifying I will indicate whether or not the victim is available and whether or not a person will then oppose the application, if this is in order with you, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members of the Committee.
	There were also two meetings, the first being on the initiative of the Amnesty Committee's Investigation Unit where victims were invited to a hearing or to a meeting last Friday.  No victims could attend this meeting at all.  There was also an ad placed in the mainstream newspapers to invite victims and inform them about the hearing.  No victims came forward either.
	I must also add, Mr Chairman, that a Mr Msisi, a member of parliament of the Inkatha Freedom Party asked or initiated a meeting the last Friday, past Friday.  I was in attendance there and he informed me that as far as he is concerned he is appearing for certain members or victims of the Thokoza township, as it was known at that stage and that they will probably make a submission during the course of these hearings, from that specific section of the community.
	The last thing I want to place on record, Mr Chairman, is that the HRV Committee did manage to take certain statements from certain victims.  The difficulty being that it was not possible because of the lack of detail, to tell whether or not those victims are actually related to the applications of these applicants before you today.  I will endeavour to make sure that all the information relating to each and every applicant will be placed before you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp.
	Mr Sibeko, you represent the first group of applicants that we will be hearing, is that correct?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of the record, in our bundle of papers relating to the applications of SDU's from Lusaka-A as we have identified it here, the first six names which appear on our list, except for we are informed, Johan Thubaka Dlamini.  In others words five except Mr Dlamini would be members of what is referred to as the Committee of Seven and if I understand the position correctly those are the applicants that you are representing?

MR SIBEKO: It is correct so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else that you wish to place on record?

MR SIBEKO: Not at this stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I have been informed that you intend to lead the testimony of Miss Sealey as the first witness who will give us some relevant background information relating to the period in question in these applications and to give an overall sketch of what the situation was like and so forth, in that area at that stage?

MR SIBEKO: I confirm that to be true, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like us to swear her in and proceed with the testimony?

MR SIBEKO: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Ms Sealy, good morning and welcome.  Perhaps we can speak together.  Perhaps you can just put your full names on record for us.

SALLY SEALEY: My name is Sally Sealey.

CHAIRPERSON: S-E-A-L-Y?

SALLY SEALEY: S-E-A-L-E-Y.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

SALLY SEALEY: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, will you lead Ms Sealey?

MR SIBEKO: As it pleases the Committee.
	Ms Sealey you are aware that we are here to hear the applications of various members who belonged to the then Self Defence Unit at Thokoza, can you confirm  that?

SALLY SEALEY: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: At the time of the existence of such units, were you employed?
MS SEALEY
"I was employed at the Independent Board of Inquiry between the period 1991 to 1996, as a senior researcher.
	The Independent Board of Inquiry was established in 1989 by the South African Council of Churches, the South African Catholic Bishops Conference and other human rights organisations.   It was formed at a time when a number of anti-apartheid activists and organisations were being attacked and there was a belief at the time that these attacks were being carried out by the State and that one couldn't rely on the police to investigate these matters properly."

MR SIBEKO: Now do I understand you correctly that you say you were actually involved in the research of such activities?
MS SEALEY
"The Independent Board of Inquiry was an organisation that was set up to basically investigate - with the advent of the violence in 1990 in the East Rand and other Reef townships, the Independent Board of Inquiry was called in to take statements from various victims of the violence and to try and establish the causes of the violence at that time."

MR SIBEKO: Now were you part of the people who went to investigate in the area of Thokoza at the time?