Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I think the mistake it's with me.  My legal representative gave the statements to me in time and I was reading them while I was in Westville Prison.  I would say it's my mistake and I didn't read thoroughly.  So it's a mistake that I made, not my lawyer, because he gave the statements to me in time.  So I accept responsibility with regards to this mistake.

MR PATEL: So you did go through this statement with your lawyer before testifying?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: All right.  You're unable to tell us when China was last at school, but he certainly wasn't at school at the time that he was with you?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: All the Black Cats were not going to school.  I left them there and there were some hiding around here.  Patrick, he was still staying in the house and China was also staying in the house.  He was fetched by Noah.  I don't know which place.  There wasn't any Black Cat who was a school-going person and China wasn't hiding at that time and I can't explain as to what standard he went.

MR PATEL: Oh, that's another story.  The question I want to ask you first is, if China never attended this school, how would he know who the school children would be and how would he be able to identify who were the troublemakers?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, to explain, you must remember that he was from Ermelo, because Noah gave me the right person who knows the targets and I took it for granted that when Noah gives me China he's a person who knows everything around Ermelo.

MR PATEL: So, we'll never hear China testify, but you relied on China to identify people?  You relied solely on him because you had no knowledge of who the people were?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.  China knew the people, knew the areas and he knew how I should run after the shooting.  And I'll agree with you when you say it like that.

MR PATEL: Who was in charge of who in the relationship between you and China?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I'm trained, so you can say I'm the one who was in charge.

MR PATEL: Did you ask him, "When was the last time you were at school.  How do you know these boys are from the school"?  A reasonable question as a commander.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Which people are you referring to?  The Thembisa one?

CHAIRPERSON: We're busy dealing with the attack on the Thembisa scholars.  Those scholars the time that China stood in the drain or hid in the drain.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, I'm trying to explain that China was given to me by Noah as a person who knows everything around Ermelo.  That's what I'm trying to explain.  All the people that he pointed out, they were the people whom he knew.  So I never killed anyone who was a Black Cat.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, what Mr Patel is asking you, and if you could just listen to the question.  He asked you did you at any stage age China how did he know that those were boys from the school.  That's what Mr Patel asked.  Is that correct, Mr Patel?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I never asked him.  I took it for granted that if he showed me particular people he knows them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Hlongwane, was China originally from Thembisa?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He was staying in Ermelo.  I don't know exactly in which area, but when I arrived here I was staying together with him in Thembisa.  We first started in Mazakhele and then we went to stay in Noah's home in Thembisa.

MR PATEL: So, you never asked him why and how he could identify these boys, you just took his word for it?  Do you think you acted as a reasonable commander to just accept your subordinate's say so?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, I don't think so because Noah as my commander was happy about the targets that I attacked.  So to me that shows that Noah was showing me the correct people.  That's what I'm trying to explain, that all the people pointed to me by China were the real targets I was supposed to attack.

MR PATEL: Mdu, spelt M-D-U, that you were walking with and your girlfriend, when was the last time he went to school?  Do you know?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I don't know all of them.

MR PATEL: How old was this man Mdu?  I beg your pardon?  I didn't get it.

CHAIRPERSON: He says he estimates it is ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER: The interpretation ... (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he said that he estimated that he was fifteen (15) or sixteen (16).  The interpreter wishes to say something.

INTERPRETER: We didn't get that part.

MR PATEL: Whose mistake is this now?  In your affidavit you say, paragraph fifty eight (58)
"I was with Mdu and my girlfriend Mphume walking in Thembisa Location when we came across three or four boys who Mdu identified as being members of the ANC and troublemakers from a school."
Your evidence this morning is:
"Three boys were singing ANC slogans.  Mdu says, 'Do you hear them'.  I said, 'Yes, step aside'."
Two totally different stories.  Why so?  Which one is the truth first, tell us?  Tell us that.  The one in your affidavit or your evidence this morning?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Chairperson, what I know and what exactly Mdu knows it is as it is stated here.

MR PATEL: Stated where?  In the affidavit and your oral evidence this morning is wrong then?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I can only say what I know, is what is written here down in the paper.

MR PATEL: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: But what Mr Patel is getting at, Mr Hlongwane, in the paper you say that it was Mr Mdu who identified to you boys as being ANC members and troublemakers.  This morning when you were giving evidence here, you said you were walking along with Mdu and Mphume and you heard these boys singing ANC songs, so you knew that they were ANC members because of the songs they were singing, which is not the same as what you say here.  And Mr Patel is asking you what exactly is the position.  Is what you say in the affidavit correct, or what you said in evidence this morning and could you explain.  That is all he is asking.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I was in the company of Mdu and we were together.  It's what we have written down here and that's what happened.  If I somewhere made a mistake, I'm sorry about that, but that's what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So, there was no singing then?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: There was singing, sir, coming towards us.  We were to meet them.  We were going down, they were going up.  Mdu asked me, "Whether can you hear them", and I said, "Yes".  As they were coming closer I asked him to move aside and I shot at them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Patel, you can proceed.

MR PATEL: What is Mdu's full name?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Mduduzi.

MR PATEL: And which area was he from?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He was a Black Cat.

CHAIRPERSON: And from which area was he from?  Was he from Thembisa or Wesselton or Davula.  It's Estancia or where?  Which part of Ermelo?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He stayed at the hostel in Estancia.  He was staying at his home and he had to leave that area to go to stay in Estancia in the hostel after they had troubles with the ANC members.

MR PATEL: Before I continue cross-examining you, I need to know from you which version you say is the true version with regard to this incident.  Is it that you were walking together and Mdu identified these boys, as is written in the affidavit, or as you testified this morning that it was as a result of the signing that you identified them as being ANC?  Which one is correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said I apologise with that regard, but they were singing, and I heard them singing together with Mdu and it was confirmed by him that it's them.