Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: The breach of security was I supposedly said something at the Congress in the Kruger National Park in October 1988, which was giving away some of the company's secrets.  I don't know what it was and no-one every could produce to me exactly what I've said but apparently National Intelligence, and this was told to me by General Knobel, picked this up, not Military Intelligence but National Intelligence picked this up and said: "Look, we've got a problem with one of your guys, he's letting out secrets or something".
 I've seen in a file on the table there in front of the Colonel sitting in front of me, a document which I read upside down: "Investigation into Security Breach by Dr Swanepoel and Charl Jackson.  Dr Riana Borman confirmed that Dr Goosen had done the Security Breach" but what no-one till today can exactly tell me.  
 What I remember saying was that: "If you are not doing your research up to international standards you cannot have people believe that you are doing contract research for international companies, therefore it is important for us to do our research on international standards".
 Anyway, I was then faced with this, that the - I had to go to jail, he directly told me: "We have to throw you in jail but we won't do it, you may go quietly".  I spoke to some of my colleagues for some assistance and some of them said: "Look man you're facing a stacked deck, just get out, you will get harmed".  
 Okay, I certainly still insisted that I want to see someone, I want to see the Surgeon-General - at that time it was in 1988, end of '88, it was General Niel Knobel, because I had a lot of confidence in his integrity etc.  
 There was a final meeting arranged with the General in his office and at the meeting I was given an option of signing a document which kept me from being involved in any activity which was similar to the company's Roodeplaat Breeding Organisation and RRL Research Laboratories and any subsidiaries etc., etc., and divulge any information from the companies to anyone etc., that document is also available, for 10 years, sign.  What did I get?, R60 000. 
 So I said at the time to - and present at the meeting was General Knobel, Dr Swanepoel, Dr Basson, Mr Spalmer and I think a security officer, but remember this is now a week or so after the guy from Military Intelligence tells me: "Look, you go or we put you in jail".  So I signed but I said: "Look, please, I cannot survive economically with six kids, not having an opportunity to practise what I'm good at, I cannot survive economically, can you not pay me out my pension"?  Well, Dr Basson said - he was asked a question and he said: "Ja, well, no, I don't think it will go through", they will have to get Cabinet approval etc., it will take too long but there is not really a possibility.
 So we left and - okay, after the meeting, when the meeting dismissed, General Knobel asked to see me alone which I appreciated and in the meeting we had together alone I said thank you for the opportunity and he said he was very sorry, what happened to me?  In fact he was visibly upset, of course I was also visibly upset I think but he was sorry what happened to me but it was out of his hands, he could do nothing about it, he's not even sure what is happening around him, his office may even be bugged, this is bad times.
 So, I said: "Okay, don't worry I'm going.  I won't cause any trouble, I'm going, I don't want to be, I know Paraoxin and all those things".  But I said: "I want to tell you something, there's problems and serious problems in the companies, please you must have a look at it, it is not working, it is not productive, whatever is produced is not up to standard".  This is verified, was verified by Dr Odendal's testimony the other day, when he said he put out products without fully testing them in animals.  I mean, how can you do that and they were forced to do that.
 So I said to General Knobel: "Please, promise me one thing, have a look at it".  And I made one mistake, I said: "These scientists left there who knows what has to be done technically, is Dr van Rensburg".  And he promised me yes, he would take the matter seriously and he will speak to the guys and he will look into it and thank you and then I left.

MR CHASKALSON: When did you next hear of RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: Chairperson yes, maybe there's - sorry , I then went and bought a farm in the Northern Transvaal without money, borrowed the money.  It was a beautiful place.  I have enjoyed it tremendously.  Me and my family stayed there, farmed and practised there for nine years and on the farm in the Eastern Transvaal rather, the other side of Tzaneen, I was visited by several people whilst establishing there, the de-briefing side of it I believe.
 Mrs Rita Engelbrecht I think, she was an officer concerned with the, not an officer, a person, I don't think she was a military officer but she was involved with the security surrounding the projects, she visited me and discussed my situation, am I, I think assessing if I was a security risk or not.  We had long discussions - I don't want to waste your time, I expressed my concern again about the security situation of the company, of what was going on there and not my own, fully she took cognisance of the fact.
 I was later visited by General - and I'm also not sure again of his name, I remember I was fixing a pump when they called me in front of my neighbours and everyone and said: "General so and so is looking for you" and all the neighbours were looking at me: what are you doing with generals.  What can I say, what am I doing with the Generals.  
 I spoke to him and it was also a sort of a de-briefing exercise and assuring me that they are looking into matters etc., and again I fully voiced my concerns to him.  To both Rita and the General I expressed again my grave financial situation and that I am desperate in having to look after my family and I have no money, can't they help me and he said: "Look, I will speak to the "old boys network" and see if we can't help you" ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry, which General was this?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: I can't exactly remember, under correction, Beukes.

MR CHASKALSON: Did anyone else approach you about what had happened to RRL possibly from within formal SADF structures?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes, Chairperson, I had frequent contact and visits from the people, personnel, my friends, all of them.  There is not really anyone of them who isn't my friend, during those periods, concerning if I'm alright.
 There were rumours apparently and at one stage someone told me that I had cancer.  And we did work on carcinogens, I knew a lot about carcinogens.  There's certain substances in smoke which causes cancer and you can buy them all off the shelf and apply them to someone and he can get cancer.  It's not proliferation, it's common knowledge.
 So they enquired about my wellbeing etc., particularly during the time when the company started to move in privatisation and closing down etc., I had a lot more contact from concerned scientists and people: "What is happening, where are we going, what is wrong".
 Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises was closed down, summarily it was told to them that the company was making a loss.  I believe they were running fully within their budget when they were closing down.  
 Mr Chairman, may I be allowed for one minute to explain my ruining Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises?

MR CHASKALSON: Carry on.