Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-06-30

MR MBANDAZAYO: The problem I understand thathe is messing up the tape when he is using all the languages simultaneously.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But does it present any problemin the Translator being able to translate to us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, that shouldn't be a majorproblem.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we proceed, if youhave any difficulty Mr Thobejane, with the language, please indicate immediatelyto Mr Mbandazayo that you've got a problem.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: What I am asking Mr Chairperson,is that the Translator doesn't translate in Sotho, I will understand Englishbecause he is confusing me.  He cannot even translate in Sotho, so I will ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that so?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What Translator do we have,what language is he translating in?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Tsonga.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In Tsonga?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: He is translating in Sotho,but he is not perfect, I am sorry to say that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could translate in Englishfor Mr Thobejane and then if you do have any difficulty Mr Thobejane, don'tsuffer it, please tell Mr Mbandazayo immediately.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The Translator is Tsonga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in,the agreement was that he would listen to questions in English and then he wouldanswer is Tswana and then the problem would be, he would be speaking is Tswanabut he would be listening in English, so I don't know what exactly ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbandazayo, can he proceedin English, do you think he is going to be comfortable in having to give hisevidence in English because the way in which things are being indicated to usby Ms Mtanga, I think it is merely going to create confusion with him.  He can'tbe listening in English and then speaking in Tswana because he has a problemwith the way in which the translation is Tswana comes out from the Translator.

MS MTANGA: I think the problem that has beenraised is that when he changes languages ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but let's find out exactlywhat the problem is, because we can't just debate it here, otherwise we musthave an adjournment, get another translator or whatever, but let's find outfrom Mr Thobejane, what is the difficulty?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, Chairperson, we agreethat he is going to use English.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  MrThobejane, can you now answer the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: The question Mr Thobejane isthat if you take a look at paragraph 12(e) of your application that you completedfor submission to the Commission, the question there is "offence in respectof which found guilty and sentenced, if applicable", and then you haveput in "murder, attempted murder, possession of ammunition, possessionof machine guns, possession of explosives, possession of pistol, etc",now what Mr Van Rensberg is asking is why didn't you put attempted robbery there,that is the question?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: In my application there is anabbreviation of etc, which it etcetera.

CHAIRPERSON: It is there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 12(e), Chairperson,12(e).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Thobejane.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Pardon, I didn't follow thatanswer.

CHAIRPERSON: There is etc, etcetera.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Etcetera, I see.  Okay, thequestion remains this morning when you gave evidence, you also omitted to mentionthat fact, why?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I forgot to.

MR VAN RENSBERG: What was the sentence thatyou received for this attempted murder conviction?

CHAIRPERSON: Attempted robbery?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Attempted robbery, thankyou Mr Chairperson?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I don't remember, I am sorry.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Fine, let's go on.  You saythat when Mr Swanepoel came out of the house on that fateful morning, he wasin possession of a gun, is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I said so, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: What kind of gun was it?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I don't know the kind.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a rifle or a pistol ora handgun?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It was a pistol, I am sorry.

MR VAN RENSBERG: When you saw Mr Swanepoelfirst, was this pistol in his hand or in his waist or where was it?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: On his hand.

MR VAN RENSBERG: How far were you from MrSwanepoel at that stage, when you apprehended him with a gun as you testified?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Some few metres, about 10 to15.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Thobejane, at that stage,was it light or was it still dark?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It was light.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And you commanded him tostand still if I followed your evidence correctly, is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR VAN RENSBERG: What happened to this gunMr Swanepoel had?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It fell to the ground and thecamera as well.

MR VAN RENSBERG: At what stage did it fallto the ground?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Because I took him by surpriseyou know, and when I instructed him to halt, I was arising from the flowersand he was terrified, it just fell to the ground.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Are you saying he let goof this gun and the camera and it fell there on the ground where he stood?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, I think Mr Swanepoel wasterrified.

MR VAN RENSBERG: The question is Mr Thobejane,did the gun and the camera fall to the ground there where he stood?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, I said so sir.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And you immediately thenproceeded to march Mr Swanepoel into the house, is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: That is correct.

MR VAN RENSBERG: What happened to this gunand the camera afterwards?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I don't know what happened tothem, but we just left them there.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Do you know if that gun wasloaded?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I won't tell you about thatone.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Are you expecting this hearingto believe that you left the guy's firearm there in the flowers and marchedhim back into the house?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I did not leave the firearmfrom the flowers, from the ground where he was standing.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Did you leave the firearmthere on the ground?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose we can believe it ifhe was only found guilty of attempted robbery.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean if it was taken, thenit would have been robbery.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, I believe so Your Worship. Do you know if any of your other cadres picked up that gun?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I would have known if somebodyfrom our Unit had picked it up.

MR VAN RENSBERG: I put it to you Mr Thobejane,that Mr Swanepoel actually walked out of the house early that morning with medicinefor his chickens and that he had no gun and no camera?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I have seen that Mr Swanepoelwas having a gun on his hand, but now if it happens that he was not having agun, I have made a mistake, then I am sorry, but now it happened six years back,if I remember well, so if he says that it was not a gun, I won't argue withhim.

CHAIRPERSON: I also think when Mr Thobejanewas giving evidence, he didn't say a camera, he said he thought it was a camera,he wasn't sure.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Okay, let's continue whenyou marched Mr Swanepoel back to the house, who went into the house with youand Mr Swanepoel?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It is myself, I was the onlyone who marched him into his house, back into the house.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And the deceased, Mr Princeas you referred to him, what actions did he take when you entered the housewith Mr Swanepoel?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Mr Prince ran to the bedroomwindow.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Did any of the other cadres,except yourself, at any stage enter into the house?