Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR KOOPEDI: When you say you reported in Lusaka, did you go there, or did you phone there, did you write a letter, or what happened?  Was it a personal thing that you did?
...(gap between tapes)

MR DUBE: ... was that if maybe you had performed an operation, I would leave the country, sometimes for logistical reasons.  I would also like to explain that as I've already mentioned I would sometimes leave the country, go to Lusaka.  I went to Lusaka to report because I hadn't done so in quite a while.  I met with that comrade and I reported the entire incident to him.

MR KOOPEDI: When you reported to him ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry ... How many days after Sicelo had been killed was this when you went to Lusaka to report?

MR DUBE: If I remember, it was months before I went to Lusaka.  I think it was a few months thereafter.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you reported to Aquino with whom was he?

MR DUBE: He was alone at the time.  Because he were the only member of the special ops command who was present, and also because our operations were very clandestine.

MR KOOPEDI: In your sworn statement that you have put before this Honourable Committee, that is page 11 Honourable Chairperson, paragraph 6, you state that you then reported the matter to the then immediate commanders of special operations, that is Tommy, Aquino, Hein Grasskopf, and you also state that you reported the whole circumstances surrounding the incident.  Who are these persons you're referring to?  This Tommy, Aquino and Grasskopf.

MR DUBE: Tommy Masinga was the overall commander of the special ops at that time.  Aquino was serving directly under him.  In the military we had a chain of command and as such I had to report to the closest commander in rank.  I mentioned Tommy's name because he was the overall commander of the special ops, not that I reported to him direct, but Aquino did inform me that he was going to report the matter to Tommy.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, so ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this in Lusaka this happened?

MR DUBE: Yes it was in Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say Aquino was the closest in rank and  Tommy was the overall commander whom Aquino would have to report to.

MR DUBE: Tommy was the overall commander of the special ops.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us a bit more about Tommy.  Don't be so coy.

MR DUBE: What I knew was that Tommy was the commander of special ops, what I also knew was that he had once been a member of the auxiliary staff.  What that entailed was that he would be in other states, other African states, and would be communicating with cells inside South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Tommy Lester Dumakude?

MR DUBE: Yes.  That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Your co-applicant in the application yesterday  who was sitting in this hall with you?

MR DUBE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So why have you so carefully kept on referring to Tommy, Tommy?  Didn't you want us to know that?  Are you trying to keep information from us?

MR DUBE: I knew him by his comrade name Tommy.  I did not know that he was Mr Dumakude at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew it today.

MR DUBE: I learned of it when we applied for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, last year you learned of it.

MR DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Cause you didn't make any mention of that other application for amnesty in this application form, did you?

MR DUBE: Which application are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: The application that was set down for hearing yesterday.  The Ellis Park bombing.

MR DUBE: Is the question directed to the fact that I did not mention Tommy's name in the Ellis Park incident?

CHAIRPERSON: You did not mention it in this, you had completely separate amnesty application forms in each event.  You did not mention that you were seeking amnesty for other matters.  You separated them completely, didn't you?

MR DUBE: That is true.  The reason being that firstly I did not know, or was not aware, whether the other comrades with whom I performed the operations had applied for amnesty or not.  I submitted the application regarding Sicelo first, and I had wanted to meet the other comrades and discuss the matter.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, considering the facts, and given the chance, you know if we were to rewind time, would you give such an order today, if you were confronted with a similar situation, would you give such an order today?

MR DUBE: I will regard that question as unfair, because the situations are very different.  At that time this country was at war, today we are in a totally different set of circumstances.  I don't know if I respond to your question correctly.

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, you did.  The ultimate decision that you took, do you think that there could have been other decisions available to you at that stage?

MR DUBE: At that time, I don't think I had other alternatives.  As I mentioned before, I was training those comrades in cells, and sometimes we would discuss matters such that if they were to go outside the country how would they handle the situations, and Sicelo used to indicate that he would not want to go leave the country.  So I'm trying to illustrate the point that even if I were to try to hijack him or try to make him leave the country, that would have still be a problem.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Is there anything you wish to add to the testimony you've just given now?

MR DUBE: Yes, there is.

MR KOOPEDI: Please go ahead.

MR DUBE: What I would like to mention, is that as I appear before this Committee I would like to just say were it not for the political situation that was responsible for the death of Sicelo, we would have not taken such a decision.  I would also like to say to the Dhlomo family that it was not our intention to kill him, or it was not something that we derived pleasure from, but it was circumstantial.  It is actually not something pleasant to talk about, but it was the circumstances that prevailed at the time that actually caused the death of Mr Dhlomo.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that concludes the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

MR RICHARD: My first question, Mr Dube, is how long did you know the deceased before his death?

MR DUBE: I would not be able to specify the time, because I am not sure about it.  But I think I explained before just how I knew him.  I knew him through the comrades who were in my cell, Clive and the other comrade.

MR RICHARD: How often did you make contact with that particular cell?

MR DUBE: I will try and respond to your question in the following ways.  Firstly, I had many cells so it depended entirely on the amount of the workload that I had at the time.  Secondly, when I was involved at the initial stages of training I made sure that I was with those trainees every day so I cannot give you a specific answer as to how often, or how much time I spent with them.  It depended on the situation.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, when you say every day with the particular members of a cell, how many days on an end?  Is that five days, ten days, a month?

MR DUBE: I did mention that I cannot specify the days, but the time was not predetermined, it would depend if I had a few hours to spend per day I would do so.  It depended entirely on the situation prevailing at the time.

MR RICHARD: But nonetheless you stand by your argument, your answer that you would train on a daily basis every day for extended periods, if I understand you correctly?

MR DUBE: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: I understood, and forgive me if I misunderstood you, to say that you would train the members of your cell on a daily basis for periods of time, and the impression I get is extended periods.

CHAIRPERSON: That was during the initial training.

MR DUBE: That is true.

MR RICHARD: During the period that you trained members of individual cells, you got to know those individuals well.

MR DUBE: That is true.