Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

MR LAX: With respect, Chairperson, the part you've just referred to was in relation to his statement to the police and he canvassed that at that stage.  But leave it as it may, I don't wish to nitpick here.  I'm just trying to be clear.  So, you see, you then go on to answer the questions about whether anyone was killed or suffered damage to property as a result of this offence.  That's question (b) towards the middle of page 2.  And it's a continuation of the offences.  Then you talk about people who were wounded and killed and you say one was your friend and a house was damaged by bullets.  Did that form part of the offences for which you were convicted, houses being damaged by bullets?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: No, I was not sentenced for that.

MR LAX: Well, then why is it here if that's what you understood you were filling in this form at this point?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: As I've mentioned before, I asked somebody to fill in the form for me.  He asked for details about what happened and I told him the entire story and he filled in the form from what I had told him.

MR LAX: So you don't know why that's there?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: As I mentioned before, he was asking me about what happened at the trial and I told him what happened, that a friend of mine died when we went to identify a person and after the death of the traffic cop.  I think that is why maybe he wrote it.

MR LAX: When we go over the next page, you talk about your orders.  Did you think you were talking about what you had told the court again?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: I say over the page you start talking about your orders.  What approval you had from which liberation movement etcetera, and who gave those orders.  And then you filled that out.  Did you think you were talking about what happened at court?  Were you wanting to tell the truth at that point, what really happened?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: This is some of what happened or rather what was contained in the confession.

MR LAX: Well, nowhere in your confession does it say you did this on behalf of the PAC.

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: But the police who were taking the statement encouraged me to say so.

MR LAX: Well, it's not here in the statement we can see.

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: As I've mentioned before, I made a number of statements and I don't know which went where.

MR LAX: Ja.  Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khwankwa, what standard did you complete at school?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: I passed standard six.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say that part of your instruction or duty was to disarm Government members in possession of weapons?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Yes, that was one of our duties.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mvijane had told us in his testimony and in his affidavit that the night before the shooting happened you were patrolling the streets looking for targets to attack, is that correct?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, from what you understood, would it have been part of your duty, as you understood it, to disarm a traffic cop who had a firearm?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The way you understood your duties, to disarm the Government members who had weapons, would you have been expected to disarm a traffic cop who had a weapon?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Yes, it would have been expected.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you heard that subsequent to the actual incident that your fellow members of this unit had attacked and disarmed a traffic cop, is that correct?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Yes, I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you agree with that action?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Yes, I did because they did what they were expected to do.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you subsequently joined them and you went to survey the scene and so forth, did you do that to help your fellow members in the unit?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Yes, it was my intention to assist them to evade arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you in fact leave with them to go to the house where the weapon was stored?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: I actually met them on the way.  I went to survey the place, I returned and I told them what had happened and then we left together to go to Klipspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were with them all the time after that?

GEORGE LULAMILE KHWANKWA: Yes, after the incident, after I had informed them that there was an eyewitness, we left together.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I think Mr Chairman has almost covered some of the aspects.  I won't do any re-examination.  That's all for the applicant.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  So that is the testimony that you wanted to present in respect of the second applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.  I want to proceed, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Do you then call the next witness?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm calling Jabulani Khumalo, the member of NEC of PAC, Secretary for Sports and Culture.  Mr Chairman, just as a sort of introduction in the suspect.  His testimony will be based on the incident, regarding the incident and also regarding the commander and what he knows about the incident itself.  It will not be necessary on a personal basis of the applicant, knowing them personally during the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it relates to the incident and to the commander in question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Moss?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Do you want him sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, if he can be sworn in, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO (AKA) ACE: (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax.  Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Khumalo, just for the record, can you tell the Committee what is your position in the PAC?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: I'm the member of the National Executive of the PAC and I'm not just an ordinary member of the NEC, but I am in the Cabinet of the PAC in the sport and culture and recreation as the secretary.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] heard what has been said by the two applicants regarding the incident of the 20th of August 1991.  Can you tell the Committee whether you have knowledge of this incident, and if you have knowledge of the incident, how did you know about this incident?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Yes, I can truly do so.  At the time of 1991, during the time the incident happened, I was the chairman of the PAC in Katlehong.  I receive a call at work, I'm sure it was the 22nd or the 21st of August, that there is something that happened operationally in Soweto, I had to come to the rescue because one of the APLA members have been injured.  So it is very much important that I jump in for the assistance before the police could track him down, because the police were all over Soweto in looking for him.  Can I continue leading the evidence?

MR LAX: Can you just move that mike back a tiny bit.  That's fine, thank you.