Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-19

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson I wouldn't if I were to argue, oppose the applications of the other applicants except for Mr Visser's application, for the reason, Chairperson, in particular that the identity of Oupa Madondo, I submit is of vital importance on his application and at this point there still remains some testimonies to be tendered in establishing exactly whether Oupa Madondo was the Scorpion who was killed.  I am saying that, Chairperson, that the identity of Madondo is critical to the application of Mr Visser because if it can be established that Madondo was in fact, or most probably, was the Scorpion who was killed, then one may argue that the reason for him to be killed is because he laid charges against the police and him, Mr Visser, as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any evidence that that was in their minds?

MR MAPOMA: As I'm saying, Chairperson, at this stage it is not conclusive, but if further evidence can be tendered, it may crop up that that evidence is material and to a certain extent that may have been the reason.  In fact, Chairperson, if I may go further, Visser in his application vehemently denies that this Scorpion was in fact this Oupa Madondo, the one who is spoken of.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he still said, as far as he could bring the two together, he still believes it wasn't the same man.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that is very interesting and I argue, Chairperson, that in itself invites serious scrutiny on the part of the Committee because one understands why, he has got an interest in fact in showing that Scorpion was not in fact Oupa Madondo because of the relevance of the identity of Oupa Madondo because if it can be established that Oupa Madondo was in fact Scorpion, then it is clear that his application may fall, that's my view, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he questioned about assaults on Madondo?

MR MAPOMA: Well he wasn't but it was not taken any further.  It does not gainsay the possibility that there was assault.  He may not have personally assaulted him but his guards, there is evidence that they did assault the deceased and he was a Commander, the buck stopped with him.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, sorry, I just want to confirm before we go off record, that our arguments are all subject to at least the transcripts of the rest of the evidence and then we will decide whether or not to submit further evidence.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly find out when Mr Carr would be available.  We would like to finish the matter as soon as possible.  If he could advise us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Prinsloo said yesterday that it would still take two weeks because he's still in intensive care, he has been yesterday, he will then be released and then it would take at least a further two weeks.  That is all I can say at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you ask Mr Prinsloo to let us know as soon as possible, as soon as he is in a position to do so.  One would not like to postpone these things, it makes our work so much more difficult if we cannot complete those things.

MS VAN DER WALT: I will do that Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, just one aspect that you mentioned to my learned friend Mr Wills.  Mr van Zyl is not so convinced that he will be able to find that place again, I mean it's years, but just during an informal discussion, I don't even know whether my colleague was there, Mr Schoon I think will probably be the man because he in fact mentioned that it has been changed to some extent, apparently it's been consolidated by a number of farmers into a game farm now, but he seems to be the one who is reasonably convinced that he should still be able to find the point.

MS VAN DER WALT: He most definitely said so.  Yes, he is very positive as to where the place is and he'd be able to point it out.

CHAIRPERSON: That would conclude our session.  I believe the matters that would have been heard tomorrow are postponed indefinitely and so all the other matters that have been placed on the role for next week, so we adjourn this sitting here and we wish to thank everybody who made it possible and who made it under the circumstances that we're assembling here, made it possible to hear these matter which clearly cut very deep and we hope that this has contributed to reconciliation and that even the family would be able to find peace at least if it's established where their beloved one died.
	To everybody, the interpreters, the staff, the representatives, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNED