Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

MR SAVAGE: Yes, it's a good question and it's extremely difficult to answer.  There's no doubt about it, throughout our sheer existence we were part of the legislative system.  There's no doubt about it, so therefore any negative connotation with that system automatically transfers onto all the participants in the system.
 Yes, we are big land owners.  That's one of the reasons why we are targeted in KwaZulu Natal on many issues, because of the very few businesses that can go ahead without acquiring land before hand and because we do own lots of land as you say, we are often in the (indistinct) in that context.
 We have tried to find, searching through our extensive records;  were there any unfair type expropriations which took place where we knowingly exploited a situation.
 In all our land, and I know this sounds ridiculous, but the only areas we can find are less than a 100 hectares, which could be construed subject to the whole legal investigation, could be construed as being exploitive.  Hundred hectares out of 4 500 hectares - 45 000 hectares.
 But on the other hand, if you step back and look at the macro, any acquisition of land over the last 40 years could be construed as being exploitive.
 So, I can't answer - I can understand the matter in the micro situation, but I can't answer that question, other than to say we would look and we would conduct any investigation which the TRC would like us to do.  We would conduct it fully, using any expert advisors that the TRC would wish to provide us and we would make the - clearly the findings fully available to the TRC and to the public.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Savage and your colleagues.  I know my - the panellists here who want to ask further questions.  I'm afraid I'm not going to be allowing them to pose those questions, besides in writing to you and perhaps you'll respond.
 I'm sure you will respond.  Thank you very much for spending the last two and a half days with us.  We wish you well on your trip back to Durban.  Thank you.

MR SAVAGE: Thank you, Chairperson and members of the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we break for tea and return at five past eleven?
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
LAND BANK:  PRESENTATION

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Dulny and your delegation, good morning and welcome.  Can I please ask you to introduce your delegation and then we will ask you to take the oath or affirmation.

DR DULNY: I'm managing director of the Land Bank.  I started on the first of May this year and the first thing that Sunsalow said to me when he saw me this morning, was, how can you possibly speak on behalf of the Land Bank.  You've only been there a few months, but I think I represent the New Land Bank and we're referring to the future.
 I'm not very much integrated into the old line bank lock, stock and barrel in the last few months.
 On my left I have Karl Erinburgh, who is taking a great deal of stress as transformation task team leader.  We're wanting to launch a new Land Bank on the 1st of March and I think at the moment we're in the middle of 56 workshops.   
 Karl Erinburgh has been with the bank for 40 years and is a senior deputy general manager.  To his left is Andre Jansen, who is currently regional manager in the Western Cape.  He took a pro-active role in the Land Bank working group, producing the document for this forum and for this Commission.
 His views were not necessarily reflected, but Andre also served as the assistant to the managing director for 17 years.
 To the far left is Bonini Jack.  Bonini Jack is the Chairperson designate of the board of directors.  At the moment our legislation gives myself a role as being MD and chair, which is not a good call for practice and in the interest of better corporate governance, Bonini Jack has been appointed as chairperson designate.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr Dulny.  Am I to understand that all of you are going to talk?
 Can I just say, you were not present when I made my announcements earlier on.  You have, unfortunately, only got 15 minutes to make your presentation.  I know there's an addition to the submission you made to us two weeks ago, so you have to work within that time.
 Then, of course, there will be some time for questioning.  Could you all please stand to take the oath or affirmation?  Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: The oath or the affirmation.  You're outnumbered.

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Who is going to start?

DR DULNY: In September of this year we had a senior manager's meeting.  There were about 70 senior managers and we took the opportunity of responding to an invite from a committee from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission who came and spoke to us about the Commission.
 At that meeting a group were selected amongst the senior managers who prepared a document for consideration by the board.  The document is the second document in the folder.  The board looked at the documents and thought it was very apologetic about the Land Bank's role in the past and was not really facing up to the reality of the Land Bank's role in Apartheid.  
 What the board then requested was that we should employ an economic historian who would sit in the Land Bank and look at our board minutes from 1948 and prepare an alternative document for consideration.
 We had that done and it was completed three days ago and the idea was to come with the new document to this meeting.
 Unfortunately, 15 top managers reacted very strongly and signed a document saying that they rejected the new document in totality and so on that bases I contacted the Truth Commission and said could we come with both documents, because it was a much fairer reflection of where we stood.
 We are in the middle of a transformation process and we have people who are trying to shift their mental paradigms.  People are doing that at a different speed and I think the two documents that you have, reflect the distance that we have to cover and I think the challenge to us will be;  can we by March the 1st when we launch the New Land Bank, can we come with one document which would have consential support amongst the staff.
 At the moment we don't have that consential support and so we thought it was a much truer reflection to give you ...(tape ends)

DR DULNY: ... we are speaking to the different documents, but is doesn't necessarily reflect that some of us support the first and some of us support the second.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.