Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

UNKNOWN: I would not put it in the occurrence book, because that is the responsibility of Unit 19, it didn't start at my place, and when he went to Kempton Park and Thembisa, he was from Unit 19, not from the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: You see Mr Ngo's instructions and it has been his evidence, that although he lived at Mamelodi barracks, and was registered as being employed by Unit 19, he was later transferred to Security Branch in July, I would say about July 1988?

UNKNOWN: I don't know that because he was under my supervision, he was brought to me, I don't know what he is saying.

ADV MEMANI: And that should be correct Mr Khoja, because you told us that you brought pocket books which related only to the time when he worked with you, and you didn't bring those pocket books relating to the time when he was no longer working under you?

UNKNOWN: I do not know, because that evidence he is putting to you, I would not testify to that, I do not know it.

ADV MEMANI: No, you told us that you were given instructions to bring occurrence books and pocket books relating to the period when he worked under you.

CHAIRPERSON: He has said, as my brother pointed out to you, that he was told to bring them for certain dates.  Do you remember that Mr Memani?  My brother pointed that out to you that he was told to go to the barracks and bring them from a certain date to a certain date.

ADV MEMANI: And that period related to the period ...

CHAIRPERSON: That period related too, but he was told, his instructions were he was given certain dates.

ADV MEMANI: My understanding My Lord, is not that he was told to bring from 1 June 1984 for instance to 10 June 1987, but he was told to bring books relating to the period when Ngo was working under his supervision.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told certain dates, to bring pocket books and the occurrence books relating to certain dates?

UNKNOWN: I was instructed that books which related to Ngo's duties from the date he started working with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not, you were not given dates, you are now saying it was from the time he started working with you till the time he stopped, is that what you say you were told to get?  You were not given dates?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And that is why you brought us the pocket books, let me see, and according to the reading of the pocket books, Ngo stopped working with you as from the 20th of July 1988?

UNKNOWN: I would not dispute that, it seems that is correct.  If the book states that, I would take it as that.

ADV MEMANI: So it is not correct to say that he was working with you right up to his arrest?

UNKNOWN: He was arrested whilst he was still working with me because the statement was demanded from me by the people who were working in Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: It cannot be correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When was he arrested?

MR DU PLESSIS: My Lord, that was in February 1989.

UNKNOWN: That is February 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I haven't had a chance to go through this occurrence book as carefully as I would have liked, but it seems to me and I would like counsel please to guide me on this, that the entries, there are regular entries about Constable Ngo, until the 20th of July 1988 and then they stop?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, My Lord, I have gone through that book.  Yes, the only reference after that is to a certain Constable Rammalo thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: My Lord, I can also state that maybe I should leave that for re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Mr Memani, you may put it to him that the occurrence book does not mention Mr Ngo doing any work with him whatsoever after the 20th of July 1988.

MR DU PLESSIS: If I may help Mr Chairman, perhaps just to refresh your memory, you will remind yourselves that the evidence was that he was involved in a motor car accident in July 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he says he was working with him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, and he was taken up in hospital.

ADV MEMANI: Now, My Lord, Mr Khoja, when a person becomes ill and he is hospitalised, you will record that fact in the occurrence book, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: I put it in the sick book report.

ADV MEMANI: You also recorded that people were playing soccer, felt ill and sprained their legs in this occurrence book, isn't it?  If I may repeat, there is an entry in the book that a certain policeman sprained himself while playing soccer and was therefore unable to go to work.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Similarly if Mr Ngo had become involved in an accident, he was unable to work because of that reason, you would have recorded that fact in the occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: Yes, if he was engaged in that accident within my jurisdiction, I would put it in the occurrence book, but if he is in a different area, I would put it in that police station where he experienced that accident.

ADV MEMANI: Now, my recollection is that Mr Ngo was at, now Mr Khoja, the name of Mr Ngo doesn't appear in the occurrence book right up to December 1988 when Mr Ngo would have been back at work.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I agree his name does not appear.  If he was in an accident in that particular place, that particular place is responsible to record in their occurrence book, because he said he stopped working with me (indistinct)

ADV MEMANI: I did not say to you that Mr Ngo was hospitalised as from the 20th of July 1988.

UNKNOWN: You said he stopped working with me on that date and there is no entry which shows that he was working with me as from then.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry Mr Memani, can I just, this other gentleman you must tell me, I don't have the records here with me, is it Rammalo, what is the surname that features, the new name that features?

CHAIRPERSON: Rammalo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Rammalo, did he not come there to take the place of Mr Ngo, or rather did he not take the place of Mr Ngo duty wise?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he took his place.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did he take Mr Ngo's place?

UNKNOWN: I went to Unit 19, but Mr Ngo was problematic.  In many instances he was not reporting for work, I put it in the occurrence book many times that it happened, that I didn't see him in the barracks, then I went to Unit 19, then they gave me Mr Rammalo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't the position that from that particular period Mr Ngo was no longer there with you, and that is the reason why Mr Rammalo was brought in as a substitute to take his place?

UNKNOWN: That is not correct.  He just left then I went back to Unit 19, but I don't see that person any more, then they brought Mr Rammalo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you never saw him from July, or the end of July onwards?  I am referring to Mr Ngo?

UNKNOWN: I saw him being injured.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Should I also understand you to say that from the end of July 1988, when Mr Rammalo came in, you never worked with Mr Ngo any more, but instead you worked with Mr Rammalo?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But I am afraid I am a little confused.  You see on the 21st of July 1988 you went on duty with Constable Ngo.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did your normal day's work.

UNKNOWN: Yes, on that day of the 21st, it seems that there was a problem that we didn't complete our work normally as usual.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet at 07h15 the next morning, the 22nd Mr Rammalo is working with you?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The very day after Mr Ngo had been working there?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Hadn't arrangements been made that he was going to be transferred away and Mr Rammalo was to take his place, because that is what happened, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: I don't know those kind of arrangements if there were any, but I missed him for some time.  I missed him for many instances and I was reporting many times.  I didn't know where he was.