Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that I do not know about it, nobody looked after me at kwaMadala, I looked after myself.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he looked after him, does it mean, does it also include supporting him by providing food?

MR LOWIES: Yes, but I hope it is seen as a question and not a statement.  It is a question not a statement of fact.

CHAIRPERSON: It may not - you are now referring to the time when he was at the hostel?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, whilst you were at the hostel, were you provided with food on some occasions by Mr Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, as part of the induna, they would provide us with food, even Darkie Chonco did so.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something here, Mr Lowies.  You put the question to him originally in this form, you said do you deny - that is not a question, that is putting it to him if you put it in that way.

MR LOWIES: It is as a result of what he said, what he testified earlier, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Are you saying, just refer us to the section where this is what he says in his statement.  Maybe you can look for it later and just refer us to it at some point, because the way it came across to me was that you were putting it to him that that is what Vanana Zulu will say and does he deny that this is what actually happened.  This is why I was a bit surprised when you said to the Chair well, this is just a question, it is not a statement of fact.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say.  I think I will have to rephrase that, to clarify my stance regarding that and I also have to check my consultation notes regarding that aspect, if you could just bear with me, I apologise to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Move on to the next question.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, how did you survive at the hostel, on your version?  You did not work?

CHAIRPERSON: He has just told us that his induna used to provide them with food on some occasions, Darkie Chonco is one of the persons he mentioned.

MR LOWIES: Was that the only way how you were able to survive in that the induna's were looking after you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did state before that in other instances, we did steal vehicles and break into shops in town.

MR LOWIES: Now did Prince Vanana Zulu look after you in a similar manner that Darkie Chonco did?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, we were all treated the same way.  The way Prince Zulu treated me, did not differ from the way that I was treated by Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: So he also looked after you?

MR LAX: Mr Lowies, his answer to the original question was in the plural, he said the induna's looked after us, like Darkie and then he mentioned, I think he might have mentioned Prince Zulu as well.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, from the documents which we will hand in later, it will appear that you had close contact with Prince Vanana Zulu?

MS TANZER: I object to this line of questioning.  Until these documents are produced before this Committee, I mean how can you refer to these documents, it is unknown?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we will accept the assurance of Counsel that he will produce those documents, is that right Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: We are trying to get hold of the original, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What document is that?

MR LOWIES: The minutes of the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Which indicates that he had close contact with ...

MR LOWIES: From the contents thereof yes, it doesn't say we had close contact, but from the contents thereof, you could infer that.  What is your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.  I regarded him as one of the induna's.  I was close to the induna's.

MR LOWIES: Now didn't you travel to - no, I rephrase, did you travel to Ulundi in a stolen vehicle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I do not know.  We were travelling in Damara Chonco's kombi, I do not know if it was stolen or not.

MR LOWIES: So it was not Darkie's kombi, it was Damara's?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated that it was Damara Chonco's vehicle, but it was driven by Darkie Chonco when we travelled to Ulundi.

MR LOWIES: Damara is deceased but Darkie is still alive, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that, I am incarcerated in prison.  I cannot tell you anything about it.

MR LOWIES: But when your other applicants gave evidence, when you were here, did you not hear that they say that Damara has passed away?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, all I am saying to you is that I don't know that he passed away.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you the reason why you are implicating Darkie where everybody else is implicating Damara, is because you want to get at Darkie as well.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true.  They are implicating Damara because he is deceased.  I am not implicating anyone.

MR LOWIES: You testified earlier sir, regarding Mr Peens, there was no way if you bumped into Peens, that you would not be, in other words meaning that if he arrested you, that you would not be assaulted by him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know what you are talking about.  I said Peens assaulted me when I was still living in the township and I was arrested for a stolen vehicle, I do not know what you are referring to.  The threats that happened in Vereeniging were different, at that time I was just threatened, I was not assaulted.  That is different from the fact that he assaulted me earlier on when I was still living in the township.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether he assaulted any other members of kwaMadala from what you have seen or heard?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.

MR LOWIES: Where did you learn how to use an AK47?  Who taught you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I first learnt in the township as well as in the hostel later on, so I cannot name just one person who taught me.

MR LOWIES: Who taught you in the township how to use a firearm such as an AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No one taught me, I taught myself.  I would watch other people who would be carrying such firearms and I would watch how they unload or load them or how they assembled or dissembled them.

MR LOWIES: So can we take it then that before you arrival at kwaMadala, you already knew how to use a firearm such as an AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know how to respond to your question because I have already stated that even in the hostel, I still had to learn, when I arrived at the hostel, I was not very good at it, but I perfected my skill there.

MR LOWIES: The point is, before you arrived at the hostel, you could already use a firearm, yes or no?

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Lowies, please let's just not go over one and the same thing, the man says he taught himself to use the AK47 whilst he was at the township and when he arrived at the hostel, he continued to improve his skills on how to use the AK47, that is a fact.

MR LOWIES: I will proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: When you attacked Boipatong that night sir, was everything done calmly or were you in a hurry, I am talking about the attackers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We took our time, because we were in the company of the Police.  Maybe we would have been in a haste if we had been alone, but we were with the Police.

MR LOWIES: How long would you say were you in the company of the Police and were you in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot tell a lie, I do not know.

MR LOWIES: You have no idea?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I do not know.  As I said before, I am uneducated so I did not check the time, I do not know anything about the time.

MR LOWIES: Sir, you were not scared at all that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What was there to be afraid of, I was with the Police, they were leading us in front when we went to Boipatong, there was nothing to be afraid of.

MR LOWIES: Were they leading the attack?