Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The instruction came from the headmen or Indunas on the 17th.  That was on the 17th.  But I can say that Themba Khosa knew that as well because he too was present when this was mentioned.  I don't know what else to say.

MR LOWIES: Can you mention other names in your mind, who were part and parcel of the instruction?  I want names please.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying they said: "The day has come, we should go and attack Boipatong". - people like Gatchene.  A siren or alarm was sounded on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, why don't you describe in your words what happened on the 17th.  You say there was a siren, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's the one that's used by the police.  On the 17th, that evening people were called to a meeting.  When we arrived at the meeting they said: "The day has arrived".  Darkie Chonco is one person who went to fetch the firearms from the ceiling.

MR LAX: You said they said
"The day has arrived"
Who is "they"? - if you can remember.  If you can't remember, just say you can't remember.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall well, there were several people who were talking, but the did say that: "The day has arrived".

MR LAX: Carry on.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: And Ntelesi was brought and placed there and they said that people should come forward and choose weapons, spears and arms, firearms.  After that we went out through the main gate of the hostel.  We proceeded and went under the bridge towards Boipatong and we crossed the robot.  That is where we came across police Casspirs at the veld near Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chair.  I'd just like to place on record, I'm not going to go into the detail as to how, which routes were taken, but Sir, there is one important thing here that I would like you to comment on.  Damarra Chonco and Darkie Chonco is not the same person, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They are siblings.

MR LOWIES: And it was Darkie that went to fetch the guns from the ceiling?

MR LAX: Sorry, the name is Darkie.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Darkie.

MR LOWIES: I apologise.  So Darkie was the chap who fetched the guns from the ceiling?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's correct.

MR LOWIES: And you talk about
"... the people had to choose weapons, spears and firearms"
Were these spears also fetched by Darkie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Everyone of us brought his own spear, Darkie only brought along the firearms.

MR LOWIES: Did he carry it all by himself?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot tell a lie, I did not see any other person except for Darkie, who came into the stadium carrying weapons.

MR LOWIES: No, but he was carrying it in his arms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he was carrying them. (as the applicant demonstrates)

MR LOWIES: Demonstrates like you would carry a baby who is sleeping, not against the chest, but with his arms forward?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he was firearms like AK's and pump-guns.

MR LOWIES: So you deny two things here.  Firstly, you deny the fact that it was taken from a Nissan Skyline.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know that Skyline.  It is true that Damarra Chonco owns a Skyline, but I did not see it, I did not see weapons being taken out from the Skyline.  I did not know - I am not aware that these weapons were removed from the Skyline.

MR LOWIES: And there's a second thing that you deny and that is that the person responsible for the firearms was Damarra and not Darkie.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true, Damarra is being implicated falsely, but the person who was in charge of those weapons was Darkie, his brother.

MR LOWIES: Now where was this meeting held?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, it was held at a stadium, it was an open ground inside the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Who chaired the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The meeting was called by the Induna, and I do not know, I cannot be in a position to say who was chairing that meeting.  I cannot put a name and say it was Damarra or somebody else.

MR LOWIES: Who said you must choose weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: Not Damarra?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Darkie.  Because he is the one who brought the firearms.

MR LOWIES: And did you choose a weapon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's correct.

MR LOWIES: What was your age at that stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.  I would be lying if I said I knew.

MR LOWIES: Well from the charge sheet in your hearing, we know that when you were tried you were 17 years of age, according to the charge sheet.  So you would agree with me you were very young at that stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know.  The only thing that can approve my age is the birth certificate.

MR LOWIES: And is it not so, Sir, that Zulu custom is as follows;  senior people get preference and the junior people must stand at the back, how come is it possible that you could get a firearm and the senior people not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were told that a person should choose his own weapon.  If you are 16/17, you are not a child anymore.  I don't know what you're trying to get at.  At the hostel it did not matter, those cultural rules did not apply.  Any person who was old enough went out on the attack.

MR LOWIES: That's not the question, the question is; senior people would get preference to the AK47's, in terms of custom, do you agree?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I am saying is that we were told that any person can choose a weapon of his choice.  I cannot agree with you on that.  As I stated before, we were all called, it was only women and children who remained behind.  I don't know what you are trying to get at.

MR LOWIES: What I'm getting at is, your version is improbable, Mr Nosenga, you are telling lies.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect, Mr Lowies, there's no evidence so far to say that people patiently queued and waited and the more senior people chose weapons first, the evidence before us so far is that it was a free-for-all.  Some people, who are the applicants, have testified that they wanted firearms, but they couldn't get in, it was a free-for-all.  So with the greatest of respect, it's not fair to call this man a liar because you're putting something to him that doesn't accord with the evidence so far.

MR LOWIES: I retract the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to place evidence before this Committee to substantiate what you've put to the witness?

MR LOWIES: Chair, my instructions were the following, and let me get this clear, it is normally custom, even if there's a free-for-all, that the eldest people have access to the weapons first, and in that regard the juniors should respect the elders.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget for one moment about what your instructions are, what your instructions in regard to what happened there? - because that is the crux of what you are putting to this witness.

MR LOWIES: My instructions are that it is very unlikely that the events occurred as he describes them and on the probabilities he was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: That is was a free-for-all?

MR LOWIES: No, I would not disagree with that, there's no instruction to that effect.  The instruction is however, that culture would not even allow him to take part in a free-for-all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: That's the way I understood my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  It is one thing to be instructed as to what the culture is, it is another matter what happened on the day in question.  Now if you're putting to this witness that what he's saying in regard to the selection of weapons is improbable, unless you know you're going to put evidence to the ...(indistinct), do you understand that?