Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say round about the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt Mr Stuart, just one point, when you say that you were expelled, you said that you were expelled and that you were told that you should never, ever attend the Central Committee meetings again.
	When you use that word expelled, are you saying that you were actually expelled from the IFP itself or just from attending those Central Committee meetings?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Just form attending meetings, I was expelled from attending the meetings only.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were still a member of the Inkatha Freedom party?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: At about that time CODESA had been sitting at Kempton Park and it was also the time of the transitional executive council.  What was the IFP's attitude to those developments?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me start off with CODESA.  The IFP did not participate in any way in CODESA.  It was against CODESA and also when CODESA started to grow into becoming the Transitional Executive Council, the IFP also did not partake of those activities.
	Also when the elections were being prepared for, the IFP was not prepared to be part of the elections.

MR STUART: What was your attitude to the Transitional Executive Council?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The stand that was adopted by the IFP as far as I was concerned, was a stand that I was opposed to because there were points where I personally could have gained from, like for example every organisation, military organisation, of these organisations be it the AWB, ANC, IFP itself, if there was a time for them to come together and identify themselves, at that time, then the IFP just indicated that they did not have a para-military structure.
	That is when we parted ways in so far as opinions are concerned.

MR STUART: The TEC established a task force to investigate para-military training in KwaZulu and at least two of the people involved there, were Fink Huysam and Howard Vanni.  Did you come to have contact with either of them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.  One person that I contacted was Howard Vanni.

MR STUART: Did you say you contacted him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I used Magahle.

MR STUART: Why?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I had already realised that things were not shaping up in my life.
	I concluded that if I did not make use of the opportunity and continue to refuse and refuse to cooperate, and deny that there is no military para-military structure for the IFP, I may end up in trouble myself.

MR STUART: How did you then come to speak to Colonel Frank Dutton?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say I found him at a time when I was really fleeing because I have already indicated that there were rumours by M.Z. Khumalo.  When the Military Intelligence soldiers came to me at Ulundi, where they told me that M.Z. Khumalo was here in Durban requesting that I be killed, because he had already found out that I had gone back to the ANC, I then realised that if I didn't do a thing, M.Z. was indeed going to kill me.
	Because the very same military intelligence indicated that go and tell him that we said (indistinct) that indeed I went back to him and told him that the Zulu's were here, and they are saying that you said I should be killed, because I had gone back to the ANC.
	He denied everything.   Thereafter he came back to Durban to inform the leaders of the ones who told me that these ones have compromised me.  The very same people also told me that he had done it again, he came back to say we have told you.  I then went to him and asked him how, because we discussed the matter, how then could you go back there?
	He denied everything and we parted ways in a bitter way because the staff itself, must have realised that there was a fight going on between myself and him.  I then banged the door and left.  Thereafter I phoned Mr Howard Vally indicating that I am now getting into the protection programme and I indicated to him that as of this moment, and he told me to hold on, he wanted to know as to whether it was okay with my life.
	Indeed, I met them at the Holiday Inn, the very same boys who accompanied me, the boys who were using me, who actually were guarding me without knowing that they were actually protecting me, they left me there and told them that after five minutes, they should come back to check on me.  They left and at that very same time, I took Dutton and that is how I disappeared.

MR STUART: And did you then come to make a statement to Colonel Dutton?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: And you have been on the witness protection programme in one form or another, since then?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: And was that very early in 1995, when that took place?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: Why have you seen it as important to tell the whole story now in the way in which you have told it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say shortly after the TEC spoke about this issue, I found it timeous that we should divulge everything to the fact of the existence of the para-military structure of the IFP, that is how it emerged, and it was indicated what its activities were.  	It should not only end up by saying they are just criminals, killing people.  And I realised that if I did not appear and say things as they were, so that there should be reconciliation or forgiveness between or among the South African people, black and white, and otherwise, because now it had emerged that this is the opportunity where people should divulge the truth as it is.
	Myself as Luthuli, saw an opportunity to come forward and say what information I knew as it was, so that I can be forgiven by the people of South Africa by divulging the whole truth.

MR STUART: In your statement to Colonel Dutton, did you divulge all the information that you had, that may have been of relevance?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.  But I also indicated in the statement that it might happen that some of the things I left out not by mistake, I am sorry, some of the things that I might have left out, by mistake, and some of the things when emerged as they were, I would own up to them as they appear.

MR STUART: There are people here today who lived in some of the communities that were affected by your activities and by the Caprivi trainees under your command.  Do you have anything to say to them today?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct, I would like to say something to them.
	I can say myself, Luthuli, have done certain bad things.  Some of these things I did see, and some I did not and therefore as I stand here before them, I would strongly, strongly unreservedly ask for forgiveness because truly the situation that prevailed was such that it required a person of wisdom.
	I myself, being human, have made mistakes as I have indicated.  Mistakes that I was not supposed to have done unto my people and there is nothing however small, on my part, that I benefitted from those activities apart from loosing my livelihood and the livelihood of the people of South Africa.
	I cannot think of any more wise way of asking for forgiveness.

MR STUART: Mr Chairperson, will you bear with me for just a second?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Stuart.

MR STUART: No further evidence at this stage, in chief Mr Chairman.

MR STUART: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stuart.  Mr Wills, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed, thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr Luthuli, from the general tenor of the evidence that you have presented today, I get the impression that there was a very intensive war that was existing in certain areas in the townships in KwaZulu Natal, in the late 1980's and early 1990's, but that was mainly between the ANC and the IFP?