Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: ... I'm going to ask all the representatives to do the same, after my colleagues have indicated who they are.

ADV GCABASHE: Advocate Leah Gcabashe.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm Attorney J B Sibanyoni.

MR SHANE: I'm attorney Lawly Shane.  I'm representing several applicants.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I'm the Evidence Leader.  I'm also representing several victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane there were some colleagues of yours who were present earlier today.  What has happened to them?

MR SHANE: Sir there are a few who are present.  They are all in fact present today, in the gallery, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, it's this matter of ...(intervention)

MR SHANE: This is the matter of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is it just a question of space that they're not sitting there next to you?

MR SHANE: That is the reason, sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman may I just be so rude as to interrupt.  The first applicant will be Mr Nkosi Bongani.  His application appears in the bundle at page 132.  One three two, Mr chairman.  Thank you sir.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I represent the applicant, his application is contained from pages 132 to 157 in three separate applications.  They were all made on the same date, and the last application in fact was signed before a Commissioner of Oaths.  So I would submit that the application is properly before you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: His three applications, does it refer to the same incidents, or offences for which he applies?

MR SHANE: Sir, in fact, the first application in fact deals with the offences that he will apply for, that is murder.  The other applications are of a general nature.  The second one, because of its generality, will also cover the application murder or attempted murder.  The other acts mentioned do not consist of gross violations of human rights, but he will deal with them, because he is testifying on them, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: See Mr Shane, on page 141, relates to an application the details of the incidents for which application is made is not in this document.

MR SHANE: I think, on one occasion when we last met in these kinds of circumstances, and I received a report that when a meeting between the legal representatives took place, that I was willing to accept supplementary affidavits to explain these general applications.  We as a Committee are stuck with the High Court decision, that applications for general amnesty, without specific details, is not a matter that we can deal with.  And in the absence of an affidavit of some sort which would fit in with what is contained in the application itself, our hands are stuck.  I thought I'd just mention it to you, and leave the rest to you.

MR SHANE: Thank you, sir.  If I may just mention, I consulted with my client for the first time on Saturday.  Logistically it hasn't been possible to furnish supplementary affidavit.  I think if we deal with the acts, there are two acts mentioned on page 133, which we'll start with.  They are clear acts of murder, for which the applicant will seek amnesty, and then there will be, from this applicant, there is a further action which occurred on a certain day which I would ask be covered, although not specifically mentioned in his application, I would ask that it be covered as well.  But we will deal with it, the murders, the first two murders, if it may please the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it, or are these two murders in the first application those incidents or offences, which would be referred to in the second application?

MR SHANE: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Shane it is beyond me how an affidavit could not have been typed and signed between Saturday morning and this morning, but be that as it may.  Is it not possible to have it done before this applicant is finished with his evidence?

MR SHANE: Well sir, I think it would be possible.  It might.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm going to give you the opportunity to do so.

MR SHANE: Otherwise Mr Chairman, what we could do, I do have other applicants present.  We could let this one stand down and I'll then - we could do that as well.  I am ready with another two applicants that are sitting here, and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm far from wanting to say how you must run this application.  I'd leave that decision entirely in your hand.

MR SHANE: Well sir, as you've mentioned the supplementary affidavit would be desirable, I would then ask that this applicant stand down until later and I would call Mbusi Passion Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would I find his application?

MR SHANE: Pages 58 to 64, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't have a similar problem in this application?

MR SHANE: No sir, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha.  Mr Shane could you ask your client to - Mr Mbatha what language would you prefer to use?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?  What number, what channel would you use?  Number four.  I'm going to repeat the question.  Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No objection, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand.  Do you swear that the evidence you're about to give will be the truth and nothing but the truth?  Raise your right hand and say, so help me God.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.  Yes Mr Shane.

MR SHANE: Thank you.  Mr Mbatha, you are applying for amnesty for the crime of murder on one Beki Khanyile.  Is that correct?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: You did, in your application, erroneously mention a killing of a Stephen Radebe.  Is that correct?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Will you please repeat the question, sir.

MR SHANE: In your original application for amnesty which you made on the 10th of May 1997, you also mentioned the killing of one Stephen Radebe.  Is that correct?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I was not present during that incident.

MR SHANE: That is erroneously written on by the person who assisted you to complete your application?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you tell the Commission you were, is it correct that you were a member of the African National Congress, as well as a member of the Self-Defence Unit at the Tambo Slovo Penduka section of Tokoza?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

MR SHANE: When did you join the Self-Defence Unit?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I cannot remember the date.

MR SHANE: The year?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It was in 1992.

MR SHANE: This person, Beki Khanyile, who you killed.  Can you tell the Commission about him?  That is, that will say, his political affiliations.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, make it easier, why did you kill him?

MR SHANE: Can you answer that question?  Why did you decide that you were to kill Beki Khanyile?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: He was an IFP member.

MR SHANE: Was that common knowledge?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that was common knowledge.  Anyone who was in Tambo section knew that information.

MR SHANE: Now, what else besides being an IFP member, what did he do for the IFP?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: He was also a taxi driver of the hit squad.  He used to drive vehicles where there would be IFP members inside.

MR SHANE: Right.  Now, that was also common knowledge?

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, Mr Shane could you just give the technician a chance just to

MR SHANE: Right, now before Beki Khanyile was killed, will you please tell the Commission ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get his previous answer.  You asked him what else did he do aside from being a member of IFP.

MR SHANE: Will you please repeat what the deceased Beki Khanyile did besides being a member of the IFP.  That is, in connection with his driving of hit squads.  Will you repeat that please.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I said he used to drive the hostel kombis.  He used to drive vehicles for IFP members.