Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  We're continuing with the so-called Zevenfontein hearing.  At the end of yesterday's proceedings, Mr Dastile had just completed his evidence-in-chief, and now for cross-examination or questioning by Mr Claassen.  Mr Claassen do you have any questions to ask the witness?  Mr Dastile before we proceed I just remind you that you're still under your former oath.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: (s.u.o.)

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I do have some questions.
	Mr Dastile, just to start out, there's something I would like you to clarify, I think it was a question that was asked yesterday.  Your late brother, was he also known as Justin?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: His surname was Dastile, but people referred to him as Justin because maybe they had a problem pronouncing Dastile.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile you testified yesterday that upon your return from your holiday in February 1994 there had already been a problem concerning the removal or the moving of some of the people in Zevenfontein.  Could you just briefly explain, I'm just not quite sure, at that stage, was there a civic organisation or a community forum as such, that represented the community in large?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We had our leaders who were representatives of the community acting as a civic.

MR CLAASSEN: This was not the ANC, nor was it the IFP, it was a predominantly apolitical organisation purely for the benefit of the Zevenfontein community?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: There were members of the ANC, but they went under the name civic, which was not partisan.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Dastile, just, I'd just like to know about this other committee.  So there was a committee known as the civic?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And on that committee you say there were the leaders of the community, the local community?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that include people such as Mr Magwaza, for instance?  He was a leader of the IFP portion, was he on that committee?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an elected committee?  Did the people in the community vote for the people who sat on that committee, that civic committee?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, it was elected by the community.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't ANC or IFP?  It was just a civic committee?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dastile, Mr Sithole, was he also part of this civic committee?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, he was not part of it.

CHAIRPERSON: This committee, was it a type of a Sanco, was it affiliated to Sanco?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was not under Sanco, it was a committee to which we referred as a civic because it did not have to be partisan, but then it did not have an umbrella.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair?  Mr Dastile, just on that specific point, you said it had not to be partisan.  Would you describe this organisation as totally apolitical?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, they were not partisan.  They were just concerned about the welfare of the community.

MR CLAASSEN: And this would include the welfare of say, IFP elements within the community as well?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Everybody who was resident in that area.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, when this problem arose with the moving of some of the houses, which community liaised with the TPA in Randburg.  Was it this organisation, this civic that you've just referred to?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Would you please explain what problem you are talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Claassen is getting at, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Claassen, is, we've heard evidence that there were some shacks that were in a dangerous situation.  They were under the wires, or they were too close to the river, and there was then dealings with the Randburg Municipality or Randburg authorities, which ultimately resulted in new land being designated for the relocation of those dangerous shacks, if I could call them that, to be replaced elsewhere.
	Now, the negotiations that took place between the Zevenfontein community and those Randburg authorities relating to that new piece of land, was, the question asked by Mr Claassen, was that, were those negotiations carried out by this civic that, this non-partisan civic association or organisation?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, it was this committee that negotiated with the TPA.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile were you yourself a member of this committee?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No.

MR CLAASSEN: And if a decision had, for instance, been taken by this committee, the community would abide by such decision?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: They did not take decisions on their own without consulting with the community.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Dastile.  Mr Dastile in your evidence yesterday you said that this, it was said that some people had to be moved, that was during December and I think you said you went on holiday, and you returned on the 10th of  February.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said after his return, on the 10th of February.  I don't think it's really important the exact date he returned, but they went away for, some people went away for the Christmas period, then came back.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  I'll leave it at that.  Mr Dastile, you also testified yesterday that on the 10th of February, specifically on that date, and I think your words was that "...we were allocating land to people."  Was this land that was now designated by the TPA?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It is just further up, that designated area.  This was a continuation of the development.

MR CLAASSEN: Was this, was this approved by the TPA?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, what exactly was your role in this allocation?  You said, and I think specifically to a question of the Chairman, you went further and said that, they asked you who the we were that you were speaking about, and you said leaders of the ANC.  Could you just explain that please.

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the question.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile you said yesterday, "...We were allocating land to people."  And you also went on to say the, we was the leaders of the ANC.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile could you just explain what authority did the leaders of the ANC have to allocate land to specific people?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We already had the powers to do that.

MR CLAASSEN: Who vested, who vested that power in you?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I'd like to go back a bit.  In the beginning when one person put up say three shacks in an area, there were three families occupying those shacks.  And later on there were a growth in number in these families.  So that the TPA came and demolished two of the shacks, saying that it was an illegal occupation of land.  After the demolishing of these shacks, we as leaders of the ANC took it upon ourselves to negotiate with TPA seeing that the civic was casting them to the side, not assisting in any way, considering that they had suffered a loss of property when these shacks were demolished.  That is when we were able, as a committee of the ANC, to say to the TPA that there are many other people who are in danger, they had to be removed from that area.  That is when we started having this authority to develop the area further.  Thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile so you wanted the previous forum, the civic, disbanded?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you, you're talking about the ANC.

MR CLAASSEN: The ANC that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In Zevenfontein.

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: It is not probably more accurate to say they usurped that committee's functions?

MR CLAASSEN: I will rest it at that, thank you Mr Lax.