Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: When we concluded the proceedings yesterday, Mr Makura had just completed his evidence in chief and so today we will commence with the cross-examination of Mr Makura.
	Mr Makura, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: (s.u.o.)

MR LENGANE: Mr Chairman, I'd indicated to my learned friend, Mr Mpshe, that I had one additional question that I wanted to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Makura, other than the AK47 rifle which you were armed, did you have any other arms or anything of that nature on you at the time of the attack?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I was armed with an AK rifle and a grenade.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Makura, in this operation, were you carry out orders?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the answer?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is so, I was carrying out orders.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you in that meeting wherein the decision was taken about Brigadier Molope?  The meeting where Masina was and others.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, I was present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, when Mr Masango left you at the scene to keep guard to go and see Mr Masina, you had already taken a decision.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: We all went to Mr Masina and then he left me there on our way from Mr Masina and I guarded the place for an hour or more, but we already were back from Mr Masina.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But all the same, when proceeding to Mr Masina you had already taken a decision?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, we had agreed as to carrying out the duty but we had to go and get the green light from Mr Masina, as our commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By saying you wanted to get the green light from Mr Masina, did you want him to endorse your decision or did you want him to tell you what he feels about your decision?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: As he was our commander, if he had said that we should not do it or whatever decision he would come up with as a commander, we would agree with him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Now when you were at the house, we are going back to the scene now, how many shots did you fire before Mr Molope could fall down?  You remember you said you shot him somewhere on the side with the AK47?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't remember how many rounds of ammunition did I use but as soon as he appeared I shot immediately.  As I was on his left-hand side he was approaching Mandla Shezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mpshe, if I could just ask one question.  Sorry to interrupt you.
	The rifle you had, was it automatic firing?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, it was an automatic firing rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: When you fired, was it on automatic?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the rate of firing of that automatic rifle?  How many shots in let say a minute or whatever unit you used to determine the firing power of that rifle?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: It's a long time since I underwent that training, thus I forgot the rate of firing but it is very fast.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But even if it is too long, if you just recall, could it fire automatically three at a go or four at a go?  We don't want the exact number.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: An AK47 rifle you could hit two or three bullets at a time when you wanted, it's up to you to adjust it and as to how you hold the trigger, so it is up to you to control it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And an AK47 as you may well know is a very lethal weapon?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now after he had fallen down why was there a need further to come nearer and shoot further, why would that be?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I wanted to make sure that I've got him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many shots did you fire when he was on the ground?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't remember clearly because as soon as he appeared, even before he reached the ground, I was still firing at him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So in short we can say he was covered in a hail of bullets before he could even reach the ground, and got some even when on the ground?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he perhaps armed, that is Mr Molope?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't remember whether he had a gun or not.  If he had a gun he might have had it in his right hand because I saw him from the left-hand side.  If he was left-handed then I didn't see the gun.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you perhaps know a person by the name of Petros Mkansi who lives in Winterveld, Beirut, Petros Mkansi?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that last name please Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: M-K-A-N-S-I.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No, Sir, I don't know him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just remind me, is it not your evidence that you stayed in Winterveld?  Who stayed in Winterveld?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, I was staying in Winterveld.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which part of Winterveld, closer to Beirut or far away from Beirut?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: There is a place called Luatle, that's where I was.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the shopping complex, the only big shopping complex there was in Beirut then?  It was the biggest shopping complex in Beirut.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't recall because on that Saturday it was my first visit to Beirut.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you ever come in contact - it may have been yourself or your fellow applicants, in contact with any businessman in the area of Beirut?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No, Sir, I never met any businessman in Beirut as far as I can recall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you hold meetings whilst in Beirut, before the incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the units?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The units, I'm sorry.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Are you referring to our unit, our group?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, the Icing unit, did you ever hold meetings around Beirut?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No, we've never held a meeting in Beirut because I was not staying there.  I wouldn't call it a formal meeting but we would generally meet together but most of the time we used to go to Jabu's place in Mamelodi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally on this aspect.  Other than the members of the unit in that meeting, those meetings that you held, were there any other people other than yourselves in your meetings?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know a gentleman by the name of David Nzemela?  He is in prison now.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Never heard about him?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't recall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In conclusion and in all fairness to yourself, the questions that I've just asked is because there was an allegation, and I think your lawyer made mention of this Commission of Inquiry that was conducted, an allegation Molope was not killed by yourself but was killed by David Nzemela and he testified at that hearing, that he is the person who killed Brigadier Molope in Winterveld, as you testified yesterday.  What is your response to that?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I'm certain, 100% sure that I'm the one who killed Molope.  I can even draw the house where he was because the South African Police at that time, I drew them a sketch of the house and even the AK rifle that they found, they told me after the ballistic test that is the rifle that was used to kill Brigadier Molope.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Makhura.  That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.
	Mr Molope, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MR MOLOPE: You are Mr Makhura isn't it?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: You are the person whom I should talk to because you killed my father.  You killed him alone?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: No, we were two.

MR MOLOPE: Who is the other person?