Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

ADV MOTATA: You were buying arms and ammunition which is illegal and if you defend yourself against such attacks, wouldn't you kill?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: The Self Defence Unit was created to defend the people and then in that defence you'd be able to kill, people would die in that kind of a defence.

MS PATEL: Mr Thulo, here was a man who you'd abducted, who by your own admission had been involved in gross human rights violations against the very persons whom you had undertaken to protect, do you seriously want this Committee to believe that if he had not given his co-operation to you and your colleagues, that it was not reasonably foreseeable that he would be killed or at the very least seriously injured?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: We did not foresee or think about that because those things happened in a very short space of time.  That is why I had to leave and go and hand over that ammunition to my commander.

MS PATEL: Let me ask you this, what was Mr Sewasi's behaviour like after you forced him into the vehicle with you?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: He denied to co-operate with us, that is why we forced him inside the car.

MS PATEL: Given that, what made you believe that he would co-operate with you in terms of giving you the information that you required?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: If you're a person you have a conscience, then you have fear.  I would say that he would be frightened that something would happen to him.  If we were prepared to kill him we could have advised those people we left him with so that they should kill him in our absence.

ADV DE JAGER: The purpose of this hearing is not to ascertain whether you were guilty of a crime or not.  We're not a criminal Court, we are a body who would give amnesty to people who come forward and tell us the whole truth.
	So as a matter of fact we are granting amnesty to people who would say: "I'm guilty of doing this or that or another thing", and openly talk about it so that the community can hear what happened and then if you've committed a crime and it was for political reasons, we must give you amnesty according to the Act.
	So there is no reason to be afraid to tell us the whole  truth and what in fact happened during those days.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I do understand.  I believe that what I am saying is the truth.  As I have taken an oath, I am mindful of the fact that I'm coming here for amnesty.  That is why I did not know what would happen thereafter when I've left that meeting.  If questions have been asked, I am not able to tell this Committee because I did not know what would happen thereafter or what would happen.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us who was in control of the meeting, who was the chairman and to whom have you handed Peter?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I explained that Siphiwe and Linda, I left them in that meeting so that they would take care of Peter, together with the committee which was present or in that meeting.
	What happened after I had left to hand over the ammunition to Unit F, I don't have knowledge of what happened thereafter.

MS PATEL: Is it correct that persons at that meeting were in fact waiting for you to bring Peter Sewasi there?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: No, that is not the truth.

MS PATEL: So this was pure coincidence, that you ended up there and left him there?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there was a meeting there?  When you picked up Peter, did you know there was a meeting near that water tank?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I did not know that there was a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: So you just per chance landed up at that meeting?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct, it was a coincidence.

CHAIRPERSON: And you left Peter there because you were scared of riding around with him because of the presence of police and whoever else, correct?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you have done with Peter had there not been a meeting?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Our intention, we were supposed to take him to the places where he was involved in those political crimes or those crimes.

CHAIRPERSON: No, where were you going to persuade him to change his ways, if there wasn't a meeting at the water tank?  That was your reason for picking him up, isn't it?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: May you please repeat your question, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: The reason for your kidnapping Peter, was to ask him certain questions about the disappearance and the injuries and the deaths of certain people, as well as to persuade him to change his ways for the betterment of the community, not so?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know that meeting was taking place at the water tank, when you picked him up?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I did not have the information about that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you going to take him to persuade him to change his ways and to give information about these missing people?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I've explained that we would take him to Unit F where we would meet with our commander so that we would call a meeting of the defence committee, because in many instances those were the people responsible to give us money to buy guns and ammunition after the community has contributed money to that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you just take him there instead of just leaving him in that meeting that you didn't know about?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I don't know as to whether I made it clear, that on my way to meet Peter, I was going to buy ammunition.  That place was near to the place where we met Peter.  And then because of the confusion and the presence of the police and the soldiers and that there were people who saw my car and they saw me taking him inside my car, I decided to take him to Polla Park where I was going to buy the ammunition.

MS PATEL: You said the intention was to take him to the Defence Unit and to hand him over to the commander, is that correct?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  What would the procedure then have been after that?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That defence committee was able to persuade people who associated themselves with the hostel dwellers.  There is one, I just forgot his name, he succeeded to go back home after he was involved with the hostel dwellers in the attacks of the people.  So they were able to persuade him to come back and be acceptable within our community.

MS PATEL: And how would they persuade him?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: The attempts they made was that he must disassociate himself with war talk so that he will be able to see that people who are hostel dwellers are the enemies of the community.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that only verbal persuasion would be used?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, the one I know, he was persuaded verbally.

MS PATEL: And that's the only method that was used by the Defence Unit, verbal persuasion?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I don't remember that there was a person who was tortured or assaulted so that he should be persuaded to change his mind.

MS PATEL: When you came back and found that they had killed Peter, who did you speak to?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I met Siphiwe.

MS PATEL: What exactly did he say to you?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: When I asked him where Peter went he said that he would show where he is.  He led to where he was murdered.

MS PATEL: ...(inaudible) he was murdered?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: He did not explain.

MS PATEL: This Siphiwe that you referred to, who exactly was he and what was his function?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: He was an operator in the Section of the Defence Unit.

MS PATEL: Why didn't you ask him what had happened?  Here was somebody whom you had assisted to abduct, do  you want us to believe that verbal persuasion would have been used in order to achieve the desired intentions of having abducted him, and you find him burnt to death, weren't you at the very least curious as to what happened?