Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, you're still under oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens please?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Coetzee, at some stage you ascertained the ownership of this car that you allegedly saw at Jeffrey's Bay, is that correct.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Well I don't want to be at cross purposes, I'm talking about the fact that the car in fact belonged to Mr Chris Hani, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: When did you find that out?

DIRK COETZEE: That was in exile Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: In London, after you'd made contact with the ANC?

DIRK COETZEE: After I'd made contact with the ANC.

MR BOOYENS: Before you testified before the Harms Commission?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't say exactly at what stage but it was in exile Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Now, you could have had - the car was discussed again at some time when you were in exile, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: Just the fact that it was Mr Hani's car, that's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] instead of discussed it might be just mentioned and not discussed.

DIRK COETZEE: Just mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: And not discussed.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, I take your point Mr Chairman.
	You see Mr Coetzee I want to put it to you, the fact that you saw this motor car is an afterthought and you never saw such a car there.

DIRK COETZEE: I emphatically deny it Mr Chairman, I know what I've seen and I'm 100% sure of it.

MR BOOYENS: You are also aware - before you testified in this matter you became aware of a certain - you referred to the documentation that was filed in this matter, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, all the hearings and all the evidence ...[indistinct]

MR BOOYENS: All the evidence, all the telexes and those things, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You are also aware of  -  if you would be so kind as to turn to Volume 2 page 177.   I take it you have also see that document, that's the - let's call it for short the Ladybrand Security Report.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you must also obviously have seen the bit where it appears that according to the author of that document on the 21st of October, Mr Kondile was alive.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did that also influence you in determining the date when you believed that Mr Kondile was killed?

DIRK COETZEE: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, while we are busy with that volume, please turn to page 107, did you deliberately forge your so-called job card?

DIRK COETZEE: No, not at all Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now this unfortunately doesn't tell us anything of your movements before the 20th of August, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But it does tell us about your movements after that date?

DIRK COETZEE: About movement after that date, I wouldn't say it's my specific movements but it does tell of movement after that date on my job card.

MR BOOYENS: The very last entry, am I correct - you were away from the office for two days at the end of December in Easter Transvaal?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Is that a genuine entry?

DIRK COETZEE: According to my recollection I was just before I left because I handed Vlakplaas over to my successor on the 31st of December 1981 and I knew that I was somewhere in the Eastern Transvaal during that time.

MR BOOYENS: And then there's an entry covering the period 11 - 23 November when you were Natal, is that a correct entry?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman, although I did leave the area for a day or two.

MR BOOYENS: To go where Mr Coetzee, can you remember?

DIRK COETZEE: To get rid of the Lesotho diamond dealer Mr Chairman, at the Swaziland border - of his body.

MR BOOYENS: Well, we're not going to go into detail on that one because I know it's a subject matter of one of your other applications which I've got nothing to do with.  Then it also reflects your movements in the Eastern Cape and if I talk about the Eastern Cape, I talk about the present Province that we would call the Eastern Cape.  In other words, that would include East London.

DIRK COETZEE: That's how it's indicated on the job card, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, why does the job card not reflect the Komatiepoort trip?

DIRK COETZEE: I won't be able to say what exactly went on or whether it was included in the period, for instance the 9th of October till the 29th Mr Chairman.  I for instance - where it is indicated as Eastern Cape here, I know that I came up from the Lesotho border on the 24th of October with the Linley shooting after the Ogies attack of so-called infiltrators on persons in a caravan after which we were called to assist in the Eastern Transvaal.
	So for quite a time - a while or a time period in this 9 October till 29 October I spent on the Lesotho border.  I've also spent some time with Koos Vermeulen in the Western Transvaal with Vuzi and Peter and then some time in the Eastern Transvaal where during that period, Vuzi and Peter were killed.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, to summarise that long answer, are you saying to me that you really don't know why the Komatiepoort trip is not reflected on this?

DIRK COETZEE: No, it's difficult to say because the job cars were not accurate at all, it's wasn't a true reflection of your movements and that was also clearly stated in the Harms Commission or came out in any case, in the Harms Commission.

MR BOOYENS: If you say East London - the very first entry, that means you were what has been referred to within the area of jurisdiction of the border security branch, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Somewhere during that period if I understand your evidence correctly, you would have been in Port Elizabeth?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: That's also not reflected there?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So, in fact there is - on your documentation, there is nothing - and I'm talking specifically about page 107, there is nothing reflected at all which connects you with any of the trips in connection with Mr Kondile?

DIRK COETZEE: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, I have said to you that it is denied but only on collateral - I'm not going to deal with it at length, it is denied that the Audi was stolen at Colonel van Rensburg's instructions.  Did I understand - is my recollection correct that you at one stage - the Audi, the way the you described how the Audi was stolen is in fact a key was handed over to you, is that correct? - an ignition key.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: By Nick van Rensburg?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Is my recollection also correct that you stated that when - in fact when the car was stolen, van Rensburg and Raath were with you?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Just to make it absolutely clear, if I say with you in the immediate vicinity where the motor car was parked?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, of the house where the car was parked.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, ja.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So clearly, if the Eastern Cape people wanted to steal the car they had the means to do so themselves?

DIRK COETZEE: That had the means to do so themselves, That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And it couldn't have been that they were afraid of being identified there.   By the way, where was this place, was it in the black residential area?

DIRK COETZEE: I'm not 100% sure, it was on the outskirts of Port Elizabeth Mr Chairman, but the suburbs and the area is unknown to me.  I'm not familiar with the area.  I accept it was in a township.