Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Bernard Ngoepe.  On his left Senior CounselMr Chris de Jager and right on my extreme right is Ms Khampepe. I have been told by the logistics people that they have had considerableproblems at various levels which have made it difficult for usto commence at the appointed time, that was 10 o'clock, and anyinconvenience that has been caused to people who have been hereso much earlier, we are sorry for that inconvenience.  We hopethings will work as smoothly as possible.  Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. Mr Chairman I am going to hand over to my colleague, counselfor the applicants to start, but before that I just want, withthe permission of the Chair, to make an announcement to membersherein sitting about the channels.  This affects those who dohave headphones that channel 1 will be for Afrikaans, channel2 for English, channel 3 for Sotho and channel 4 for Zulu.  Youwill find the channels on the piece of instrument given to youin order to enable you to listen to a language of your choice. Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe could you tell us whether therehas been compliance with section 19(4) of the Act?  Have you infact in a prescribed manner notified applicants they are here,all the victims or persons implicated or having an interest inthe application of the place where this hearing would take place,and also informed them of their right to be present at the hearingand to testify, to adduce evidenceand to submit any article to be taken into consideration?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee. Compliance with that particular section has been done.  The victimsas well as the next of kin to victims as well as their legal representativeshave been informed and the majority of them are herein present. The victims or the next of kin to victims have been served withour form 2 and I have in my possession return of services to thateffect.

JUDGE WILSON: But what about other interested partiesthat my colleague asked you about, that is persons implicated,I have a list of about 50 names of persons who are implicatedin the papers before us, have those persons been notified?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Those persons have been notified by means ofletters.  We have written letters to them, but not personallyto them in that we have a difficulty inasfar as knowing theirwhereabouts.  The majority of them are former police officersand letters have been written to the Minister of Safety and Securityfor causing them to be delivered to the affected persons.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't that a general statement, shouldn'twe look incident by incident?  For example, I mean I don't knowwith which incident we are going to start, but it's difficultto imagine how, for example, the Zero handgrenade, so-called,how, given the contents of some of the things that the applicantsays, who says that he doesn't know the names of the victims,it is difficult to imagine how the families could have been contactedand informed.  My suggestion is shouldn't you, before you handover to your colleagues indicate to us, unless you are satisfiedthat compliance has been effected in respect of all the incidents,shouldn't you identify to us those incidents which have got this kind of problem and those incidents in respectthere's been full compliance?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee. I have made available to members of the Committee a form of thisnature and I am going to refer to it, it will be easy reference. This was attached to the letter by me to Committee members.

JUDGE WILSON: It was not attached to the letter to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My apologies to that, that it was not attachedto certain letters given to Committee members.  That form I'mreferring the members of the Committee to list out the incidentsor the events, and I am going to move by those incidents and indicatewhere the necessary has been done.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Theproblem which will arise if you want to deal with them in sucha global fashion.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Perhaps with the Committee's permissionI may have to start identifying events wherein there has beencompliance.  I think that will be the best starting point.
 Now event no.1 on that paper, the Zero handgrenade, there hasbeen compliance. It's called the Zero handgrenade.
 Event no.2 ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Was there only one incident or how incidentsof Zero handgrenades were there?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There are victims, about nine or ten of them,and all next of kin in here have been informed and served.  Nowthe number may not be mentioned when it says Zero handgrenade,we may not mention the number of victims therein because I thoughtthese are included in the application itself.  If the applicationin that particular event is being read it will come out clear. In some mention is made that, to give an example, we simply say the Kwandebele9 or the Kwandebele Incident.  Now in the application it disclosesthat 9 Kwandebele people were, 9 people were killed in Kwandebele. Now here it is just a summary of what is included in the application.

JUDGE WILSON: But in the Zero handgrenade there is, asfar as I can see, no information in the application about thevictims.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There is no information in the applicationabout the victims, because that was not disclosed in the application. But as a result of investigation done by the TRC this has nowcome to be known and they have been informed. I want this Committeeto realise that some of the events were not quite giving us anylead in order to make up minds but with the assistance and thecooperation of the Investigative Unit we were able to identifywho was injured and how many people were there, and this willbe tendered in evidence viva voce.  Thank you.
 Now I will start.  The Zero handgrenade there is compliance. The killing of Joe Jele(?) there is no compliance.  The thirdone, the attempted murder on Jerry Tebedi there is compliance. The fourth one, the attempted murder on Reverend Mukachwa thereis compliance.  The next one Pepco 3 there is compliance.  Thenext one, the killing Zweli Nyanda there is compliance.  The "NietVerdiend" there is compliance.  The "Niet Verdiend"refers to the activists, nine of them who were killed in a Combiaround Bophutatswana, close to Zeerust, there is compliance. The Rubeiro double murders there is compliance.  Makupe MarkenSofula(?) killings there is compliance.  The Kwandebele 9 killingthere is compliance.  The killing of Jeffrey Sibiya there is no compliance.  The killing of Piet Ntuli there is compliance.The killing of Brian Nyalunga there is no compliance.  The killingof policemen in Hammanskraal there is no compliance.  Nyalungathere isn't.  And the next one, the policemen in Hammanskraalthere isn't, not to my knowledge.  The interrogation of ScheepersMorudi there is no compliance.  And the burning of Zozo Housein Mamelodi there is compliance.
 I want further to state this that the document in front of theCommittee members is intended to assist the Committee membersinasfar as the events are concerned.  As the Honourable Memberhas already indicated that one incident or one applicant may testifyon an incident which may also be covered by others.  Now thisis intended to show their cross-reference.  To take an example,attempted murder on Jerry Tebedi, evidence will be given by VanVuuren as well as Hechter.  Now there is a cross-reference forthe convenience of the Committee members.  I don't know whetherI have responded sufficiently.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just ask you something.  With regardto attempted murder Reverend Mkatso, it's not clear to me whywe are hearing it.  There hasn't been any gross violation of humanrights.