Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR STANDER: I don't have a list here that I can give him but I'm asking your permission to read it out.
	We know Makhubalo and Oliphant were present, Baba Khuzela and Litlikana and Matapelo Litlikana.   Do you know whether a Tami Makhubalo was present?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Motsamai, I think your counsel is going to mention certain names and we would like to know whether you are saying those people were in that group which was assaulted as you say.  You are going to listen to the names, then you tell us whether that person was there and so on and so forth.

MR STANDER: Thank you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You must not be fast.

MR STANDER: Was Tami Makhubalo a member of this group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was present.

MR STANDER: Ntano Bellot?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Can you pronounce that name correctly?

MR STANDER: Ntano Bellot?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was present.

MR STANDER: Zaks Djantje?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: What is his first name?

MR STANDER: Zaks.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present.

MR STANDER: Piet Sekonyala?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present.

MR STANDER: Dali Matjali?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present.

MR STANDER: Monapule Mtamo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present.

MR STANDER: A person by the name of Kwedi and repeat it so the name is pronounced twice - Kwedi Kwedi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know that name, I don't know as whether he was there or not.

MR STANDER: Then someone called Scara?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was present.

MR STANDER: Kuze Dwayi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Is that Jwuayi or who?

MR STANDER: I think it's pronounced Jwuayi.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present.

MR STANDER: Letsego Litlikana?  This must be one of the three sisters that you mentioned?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, they were present - she was present.

MR STANDER: Then Nomnongethani Nakope?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present.

MR STANDER: Then someone called Nyenye?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: And the last person a Tandi Jacobs?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Is that Jeje or Nje Nje?

MR STANDER: It's Nyenye.  I think it's pronounced Nye Nye.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'm not sure.

MR STANDER: And the last one, do you know of someone called Tandi Jacobs - also a woman?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: She was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just clarify something for me?   Were all these people taken up to the passage known as Violent Street and assaulted by you and the others?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR STANDER: Had all of them been assaulted to a greater of lesser degree, to make some sort of confession?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, they were assaulted, they were seriously assaulted.

MR STANDER: I understand that some of these people later confessed.  Is that true, do you know about this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When you said: "they confessed, what do you mean"?

MR STANDER: That certain information had been handed over to the security police because the assaults had just become too severe.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.  There were those who couldn't persevere that assault.

MR STANDER: Is it the fact that statements were taken from these people that could be used later?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, statements were taken.

MR STANDER: Were these statements taken against their will?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

MR STANDER: I understand that Mr Oliphant and Mr Makhubalo were later charged due their political activities and their leadership.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR STANDER: And that as part of the evidence, some of these people - the members of this group, were used as State witnesses.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR STANDER: I also understand that this group later refused to testify and as a result of which, some people were not charged and released.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I will now proceed to the second occurrence to which Mr Motsamai referred, in fact the third one.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask something, I think it's clear but I just want to make sure I'm not mistaken.  This passage that was called Violent Street that you said had a label up saying Violent Street, was it used regularly for your frog jumping and press-up tortures and where you kicked and slapped people?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it a passage that other people in the building had access to?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STANDER: Just one aspect around Violent Street.  Was there - was it written in letters on the walls of this passage - Violent Street?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, it is written on the board and the board was pinned on the wall.

MR STANDER: Do you know why it was called like this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I found it there, I found it pinned there on the wall.  They taught me that I've got to know that that's Violent Street, this is what we do - people are assaulted, people are tortured.  I found it there - when I started working with the security police, I found it there.

MR STANDER: Did you ever enquire about who put up this sign?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I never made enquiries because at that office, if you make a lot of enquiries, many things would happen to you.

MR STANDER: It seems that you were yourself afraid of this organisation for which you worked?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I was afraid of that organisation, seriously, I was afraid.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I'm now going to move to paragraph 3 on page 146 of the application.  It deals with the matter of Mr Bobby Sebotsa.
	Mr Motsamai, you told us that this person - this person's house had to be petrol-bombed and that you couldn't decide which of the two houses should be bombed because he lived in either his mother's house or in his brother's house.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: Because in paragraph 3, you make particular mention of this, that the house which you did bomb had been his parents house while in the evidence which you gave to us, you mentioned the fact that it was his brother's house.  Could you just clear this up for us please?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This brother's house, I would call it his parents house because Bobby, he was under the car of his brother.  He was the one who was taking care of him, he was the one who was giving him everything.

MR STANDER: Why didn't he make specific mention of the fact that it was his brother's house, there's a big difference between his brother and his parents, isn't that so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I did clarify that when I started to give testimony when I was asked as whether was it his parents house or his brother's house.  I explained that he was under the care of his brother.

MR STANDER: Tell me, who decided to petrol-bomb that particular house because one would expect that before you went to bomb a house, that you would enquire whether the person against whom this attack was aimed, would be there or not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw who said this house should be attacked.

MR STANDER: Am I wrong when I get the impression during your evidence that even you who had to go and execute these orders, weren't quite sure whose house you were attacking?

ADV MEMANI: Now this is misleading, it was known that the house was the brother's house - that is the evidence.  What may be proper put is that they did not even know whether the person who was troublesome was there.

MR STANDER: I gave the witness the opportunity to answer the question because I got the impression that he was unsure - him and his group, that they were unsure about this.  Perhaps he could clear this up for us.