Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

INTERPRETER: Sorry, I am getting a bit mixed up with the court switching.

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We would really like to thank you very much for all what you have related to us.  I will just ask you a few questions and then I will give my fellow Commissioners an opportunity to ask you questions.  You said, when you started you said U Baba, our husband was working for the church.  Could you tell us what church is that?

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: That is the Church of Christ.

CHAIRPERSON: The way you have related this story, you said your suffering started, because you were involved in the struggle.  Were you involved in this Priest fraternal that is involved in your community in East Rand, the fraternity of all the Priests who were involved in the struggle?  It is fraternal.

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: Baba Mavuso was a member of the Minister's fraternal.  He left this, because there were promises and there were other things that was happening in the township and it became a no-go area and many of these children lost their homes.  They promised that they would help them and they were not helping them.  At the end I remember there was a time that I had to take my creche food and give it to these young people, because when they saw food coming in they thought it was their food as the youth were suffering and eventually he left this Minister's fraternal.  He spoke to Baba Velakazie.  He said why are you promising these things to these youth and you are not doing them and these children will then blame us.  They will think that we are accepting help on their behalf, but we are not passing it on to them.  I think he only left some time late last year.

CHAIRPERSON: During that time when this happened, the statement we got was that this organisation was helping families and as people who were Priests and you were very much involved in these activities why were they not working with you?  Could you relate it to us.

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: I really do not know why this happened.  They did help this youth for some time, but it was only for a brief moment.  I remember when I went to the social workers.  They were giving them food parcels and they told Mama Vuso what are you coming to do.  I said I am asking for food parcels.  Social worker said, really, are you serious?  I said did your house not burn, why are you not giving me blankets.  It is this organisation that helped us was the Red Cross.  They gave us blankets and they gave us some clothes.  It was out of compassion of seeing many children who had been hurt.  We only took two blankets and all the other clothing we gave it to the other people who really did not get any help whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I can see the difficulty that you have got.  I was trying to ask you to relate your own story, things that directly relate to you and not other people, things that affect your family, but besides going to Red Cross and social workers, this organisation was saying, was looking after the East Rand.  How far do you think he helped you as the Mavuso family especially during that time when your house had been shot at and burnt?

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: No, that is the plain truth, that they did not help us.  It was only time at, when we were at Eden Park that we got a letter that the Priests were coming and in that afternoon people who were living with us they had baked cakes, they had prepared anything.  At the end of the day not even one Priest arrived there.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you have put some lists of people whom you think were involved in shooting you at your house and burning your house.  As far as you are concerned, why do you think your house was identified for being shot at and being burnt?  I mean, if you look back now could you be able to tell what caused that?

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: I think on that day it was because there were a number of youth who were killed.  We were one of the seven homes that were shot at at that night, because most of the time they use to kill the boys, the young boys, but in other houses they would, at other times they would burn in other houses, but then when they attack any house they will come in and kidnap the young boys, but on that day there were seven houses that were burnt.  I remember Mama Vuso at hospital, because the soldiers did not know the Thokoza area.  There was a phone, that there was a house in Ndebele Street, at Sis Thandi Nkobeni's house, that house had also been burnt, it had also been shot at.
 And Mama Vuso said I will take you to the place and she accompanied the soldiers to go and fetch all these people who had been injured, who had been attacked and injured, but not been attacked.  On that day seven homes were attacked.  It was not only our house that was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Baba Mavuso took the soldiers to other peoples' houses, were you not real concerned that the community will really start to suspect you that you are collaborating with the soldiers and the police?

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: Well, we got the telephone and the soldiers were informed that at Nkubeni Street there was a house burnt and the soldiers will say we do not know that place, we do not know that place.  He also does not know why he offered to help, but he did say this is next to my street and these soldiers said can you take us there and he took them there and whilst they were still there they also heard that at Nklabo there were four other houses that had been burnt.  They also, this other ambulance also went to these other families.  This time now it was no longer soldiers only.  It was ambulance and nurses that we were all put, also brought other families, but we are the first families that were taken to Natalspruit Hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: If I really try to understand what you are saying, I think at that stage if you were seen helping any Government linked official, many people would not like to have anything to do with you and you, as people who were playing a very prominent role politically, I assume that you should have been more careful that that kind of assistance to the soldiers would get you into trouble, if you are seen helping any Government related officers or officials.

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: Yes, I think that has really made us isolated.  Many Priests started isolating themselves from or isolating us.  They, although they had no valid reason to isolate us.  We only united with them when there were houses, when they got letters that evicted them.  Then they realised that Mavuso was just helping people, but he is not on the other side, he is on our side.  That is when they realised that.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you have written, you have spoken about another Bishop who was working with other people who were burning your house.  Could you explain to us how did he get involved in the burning of this house?