Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-14

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, I am Judge Pillay and I'm going to ask my colleagues to identify themselves for the purposes of the record.

DR TSOTSI: Doctor Tsotsi, an attorney, Port Elizabeth.

ADV SIGODI: It's Advocate Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Who appears for the applicant?

UNKNOWN: Booker Mholaba, an attorney from Pretoria.

MS THABETE: Thabile Thabete, Evidence Leader, TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, call your first case.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair.  I am calling Milton Beki Mhlongo, and that is page 39 of the paginated bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: 99?

UNKNOWN: 39 according to - it would appear that the bundle has since been changed after the very first bundle was allocated to me, but I confirm that the pagination has changed, but the documentation contained are still the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, which language would you prefer to use?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Please rise.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mhlongo, you were born on the 24th of March 1964 in Pietermaritzburg, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You are presently serving a prison term, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain to the Committee why are you serving a prison term, for which offences?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Robbery and murder.

UNKNOWN: And you are before the Committee to apply for amnesty in respect of those offence, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For one count of murder and one count of robbery?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you carry on, the one count of murder involved who, or what date did it take place?  I just need to identify the ...(intervention)

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: This happened in 1993, on a Friday in September.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of the deceased?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: It's Mr Joubert if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: And the robbery, when did that take place?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: It happened on the Friday the 10th of September 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the same day as the murder?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Proceed.

UNKNOWN: You were prosecuted in the Transvaal Provisional Division of the then Supreme Court and found guilty in respect of these offences, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You were also charged with unlawful possession of arms and ammunition, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Is it your desire also to apply for amnesty in respect of these two offences?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: The basis on which you're applying for this amnesty is that these offences were committed with a political objective, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you during the period of 1993, that is the period during which this offence was committed, a member of a political organisation or an institution?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you mention the political organisation?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I was part of, or a member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: It's been quite a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: How long?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: From round 1989.

UNKNOWN: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: At Tsakane.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain to this Committee how you joined the SDUs and the reasons therefore, were you invited or did you voluntarily join the SDUs.  And if there's any reason for your doing that, can you please explain with clear details.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I joined the ANC in 1989, resulting from the situation.  In 1990 we put up some shacks in the area where we resided.

UNKNOWN: Continue.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: It so happened that we were invited by the people who were in charge of the area, inviting us to come and join the ANC, so that we were forced to join the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You joined the ANC against your will?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: They forced us or forced me.  It's because of the situation that one joined.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: We joined the ANC in 1989, so that in 1990 we put up some shacks at now known as Mandela Village.  When we put up these shacks in Tsakane in 1990.  As the ANC patrolling in the evenings it happened that we held a meeting in 1993 in Tsakane and it transpired that we had a need for firearms to fight against the IFP in the area and the community of Tsakane, that is the ANC community, did not have firearms and as a result of that a word that came from the ANC to the effect that we should procure some firearms, which we did.  We went out to look for these firearms. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the reason you went out to look for firearms and to rob people, or commit crimes in order to take physical custody of firearms and ammunition?  Do I understand you correctly?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, we went out with the intention of looking for firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mhlongo, take us through the incident which happened on this day when you went out to commit this robbery where Mr Joubert was killed.  Can you tell us how it was planned and all the roles which you have played?

CHAIRPERSON: Was this also one of those ventures where you went to look for firearms?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because we held a meeting before the 10th, on a Friday in 1993.  We had a meeting so that there was an order that came from Shavias Biaha to the effect that we should secure firearms for ourselves and somebody came up with an idea as to where we could get hold of these firearms.  This person came on the 10th to inform us where to get hold of the firearms, so that the ANC ordered that I accompany these boys to go and get the firearms.  We used a vehicle that belonged to accused number 4.  We went to Delmas and we got into the place.  We found two white men sitting in the kitchen.  Myself as well as accused number 2, took one of these white men and we took him to the bedroom and two of us ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, please Mr Mohlaba control the applicant, we've got to take notes and it is also interpreted, so it's difficult for the interpreter to catch up with him.

UNKNOWN: I thank you.  Mr Mhlongo, can you just try and pause to enable the Committee Members to jot the necessary points and if there are names of people - because the accused number 2, the numbers of the accused are not known to the Committee, could you please mention them by names if you can still remember them.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Before the 10th of September, it was on a Friday in 1993, we held a meeting at Vuyana, or Vuyani in Tsakane, we as the ANC.  It was discussed that we should secure ourselves firearms to face the situation in our area at Tsakane.
	Indeed I met with Joseph Fani Nkosi and I informed him that we required things such as firearms to be used in the protection of our community.  He then suggested that there was place where we could procure firearms.
	We fixed an appointment with Fani Nkosi.  We discussed with Joseph Fani Nkosi when he told me that we could get firearms but we would need a vehicle.  We decided then that we should look for a vehicle and we used accused number 4's vehicle.
	I came back to report to the members of the ANC with whom I was working, reported to them that I had already secured something with, or secured information about where to procure firearms.  So we then left with these people to look for these firearms.

DR TSOTSI: Who is accused number 4?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Glen Boy Tshabalala.

ADV SIGODI: According to the judgement here, there were only three accused.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I'm the fourth one.

ADV SIGODI: No, you were number 1, you were accused number 1.