Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MKHIZE: We had to get arms, that is all.  There was nothing else to do, there was no other preparation to be made really.

MR BERGER: So you gave instructions to Damara Qunchu to get arms, to go and buy arms, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, but we already had some of the firearms.

MR BERGER: But you had to get more?

MR MKHIZE: No, there was no need to (indistinct) the firearms.

MR BERGER: Well then, what did you do in the six days before the attack, you said you had to get arms, where did you get them from?

MR MKHIZE: I did say earlier on that one person who had knowledge about firearms, was Mr Qunchu himself.

MR BERGER: And did he go and get arms, and if so, from where?

MR MKHIZE: I am saying he is the one who had knowledge as to where to find firearms, I don't know where he found them really.

MR BERGER: So all you did was you said Damara, we need arms, go and get arms and he went on his way and got the arms, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHIZE: There were already firearms.

MR BERGER: Where?

MR MKHIZE: At the hostel, at kwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: So you said to him Damara, go and get all the arms in the hostel, is that what you said?

MR MKHIZE: We already had firearms where we resided at the hostel.

MR BERGER: I am sorry, I am being very obtuse, all you said to him was go and fetch the arms which are hidden in the hostel and he went about his business, is that what happened?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we already had firearms at the hostel.

MR BERGER: You know you were asked questions about weapons in this request for further particulars, on page 68 in particular, question 19.  You were asked did you have an AK47 automatic rifle on the evening of the 17th of June and your answer was yes.  It was in the hostel.  I didn't see when Damara Qunchu arrived, but he was responsible to organise weapons, including AK47's.
	You were asked where did you get this weapon, 19.1.  You didn't answer that as far as I can see.  You were asked in question 19.2, did Mr Damara Qunchu bring weapons to the hostel in a vehicle, a blue Nissan Skyline.  I am not sure if you answered that question because you said you didn't see when he arrived.
	I will ask you again, did Mr Damara Qunchu go out of the hostel to organise guns?

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage Mr Berger?  He has told us previously that whenever they wanted arms, they would collect money, give it to Damara Qunchu to go and buy the arms, he didn't know where they were bought from.
	What is the stage that you are talking about?

MR BERGER: Between the time when you decided that you needed arms to launch an attack on Boipatong, we are talking about six days before the attack, or after the meeting of the 10th of June, seven days before the attack.  Between that time, the 10th of June and the 17th of June, did Mr Damara Qunchu leave the hostel and return with guns in a blue Nissan Skyline?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember very well, but yes, he used to use a blue Skyline.

MR BERGER: Besides giving an instruction to Mr Qunchu to say go and get the arms, what other preparations did you make for the attack?

MR MKHIZE: We did not make any other preparation.  There was no need for any other preparation because we already had firearms.

MR BERGER: Well there was a need Mr Mkhize, let me give you some examples.
	You had to plan the route for one, you had to plan the targets for two, where would you attack the SDU's.  You didn't plan any of that, routes or targets?

MR MKHIZE: We knew too that we were going to find the Self Defence Units in the townships, that is all.  We knew that.

MR BERGER: And the route to Boipatong, you were just going to go out the main gate and walk to Boipatong?  That was what you had decided?

MR MKHIZE: We took the route to the township, we know the route to the township.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that you just walked to Boipatong, but what Counsel is asking you is, did you not plan where you were going to get the SDU and which route you were going to follow to get to them?  Did you not plan that beforehand?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did plan those because we knew that they used to patrol at the entrance.  That is where they used to put up barricades.

MR BERGER: When you say we planned, it is you and Mr Damara Qunchu, no one else?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: What about the guards at the main gate of kwaMadala hostel?  Surely they were going to be suspicious when a couple of hundred armed men leave the hostel, after nightfall?  Did you arrange with them what was going to happen?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: What about the Vaal Commando?  You knew, I am sure, I will ask you, did you know that the Vaal Commando patrolled the street outside the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I did not have that knowledge, except to say we had knowledge to the fact that there were some police who used to patrol the streets.

MR BERGER: Police and military vehicles used to patrol the area around the hostel, around ISCOR, around kwaMadala, around Boipatong.  You knew that, didn't you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did have that information.

MR BERGER: What made you think that several hundred armed men moving out of the main gate, along the main road to Boipatong, were not going to be stopped by either members of the army or by members of the police?  How did you think you could do that with impunity?

MR MKHIZE: It just did not occur to us.  It did not occur to me as well.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you are the Commander of a military unit, a fighting unit.  You are leading a couple of hundred armed men out to commit murder, and it never occurs to you that the police might catch you in the act, it never occurs to you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it did not occur to me.

MR BERGER: I will tell you why it did not occur to you Mr Mkhize, because you already had assurances from the police that not only would you not be stopped on your way to commit murder, but that you would be assisted?

MR MKHIZE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: On the 14th of June, this is now the Sunday before the attack, says Mr Nosenga, paragraph 8, page 19, he also says there was a meeting at the hostel and he says that at this meeting, it was decided that the attack should take place on the 17th of June 1992.  Is he correct?

MR MKHIZE: No, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Well then why do you say  he is not correct?  We know that there was a meeting on the 14th of June, Mr Mthembu says so as well.
	This is the Sunday, three days before the attack there was a meeting at the hostel, we know that, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: I do not disagree with the fact that there was a meeting on that day, but all I am saying is that I have lost count of the dates during which certain things happened.

MR BERGER: We know from your own evidence that by the Sunday, you had already taken a decision to attack Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Will you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: We know from you that by the Sunday, you had already taken a decision to attack Boipatong, the 14th, by the 14th?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it not correct that on the Sunday, you told the residents that the attack would take place on the Wednesday, the 17th?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you tell the residents that?

MR MKHIZE: I told them on the day of the attack.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, why at this meeting on the Sunday, did you not tell the hostel residents on Wednesday, three days from now, we will go and attack Boipatong, get yourselves ready?  Why didn't you do that?

MR MKHIZE: It was not easy.  This is not something to be done in advance, they ought not to have been informed in advance, because the information would leak and we might end up being arrested.

MR BERGER: The information would leak to the police and you might end up being arrested, is that what you thought at the time?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But you never thought that the police would arrest you on your way to Boipatong?