Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR STANDER: And afterwards?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: After telling me that I went to the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: What was his order to you?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: He said I should go and see, that there are people upstairs, it seems as if they wanted to skip the country.  We should find out how it came about that they wanted to skip the country and who sent them and who was the person to receive them the other side.

MR STANDER: In other words, you had to go and interrogate them?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Was it only you that got the order to interrogate them?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: We were three, it was myself Melesi and Mafisa.

MR STANDER: When did you hear that it was only the three of you who had to go and interrogate these people or was that just what was said to you when you arrived there?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: When we arrived at du Plooy he said: "There are people upstairs, go ask them".

MR STANDER: And when you got there, where did you find them?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: They were in the kitchen.

MR STANDER: What did they do while they were in the kitchen?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: They were sitting down - because there is a bench, some of them were on the bench, some were just on their feet.

MR STANDER: Were there any of them that were upset, in other words crying?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: You see according to my view, I do not remember, I do not recall seeing any person who was upset, they were quiet.

MR STANDER: Is it possible that some of them were upset but that you just cannot remember it today?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Sir, I'm saying to you, when I got into the kitchen those people were quiet.  You would not see whether a person is angry and upset when he is just quiet.

MR STANDER: That is exactly what I'm asking you Sir.  Is it just because of the fact that you could possibly have forgotten it, that in fact there were people there who were upset?  Would you like to answer?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I told you that these people were quiet when I entered the room.  Yes, maybe they were angry, they were upset or they were just quiet.

MR STANDER: Did you see anyone crying?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I did not see anyone crying?

MR STANDER: Did you look at each of them carefully?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No.  When you open a door, people are facing at you, you call just one, you leave the room and on your way you're talking to each other, you take the person into the room where you interrogate him.  If he doesn't want to co-operate, you leave him and you go and get the other one.

MR STANDER: So what you're saying to us is that as far as you're concerned not one of them was crying?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I did not realise.  Let me put it that way, I did not realise.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] said: "Not one was crying", he said he didn't see anyone crying.  He said he doesn't look, you open the door and say: "You come".  You're putting words into his mouth which is unfair Mr Stander.

MR STANDER: As it pleases the Chair.
	Tell me, who decided which of the 19 people had to be interrogated and when, or was it just something that just happened and you came in and took the first one and questioned him.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: The interrogator would open the door and the first one you meet you call for interrogation.  You do not have to get in and look around: "I want to take that one".

MR STANDER: Did you only question or interrogate, one of the people that day?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I said I do not remember, it might be two or three and I had to leave because I other things to do.

MR STANDER: Can you remember what you asked this person?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: There are so many questions, I do not remember them all.

MR STANDER: When the person didn't want to co-operate, what did you do?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I'd take the person back and bring the other one.  If that person does the same I take him back, bring the other one.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...[inaudible] interrogated maybe one or two and then went away to go to do some work, had you not been called specifically by Mr du Plooy on radio to come and interrogate this particular group?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Sir, he called me - there was a phone call from an informer so I had to leave these people and go and hear what the informer was bringing.

MR STANDER: In whose presence was this person interrogated?  I'm talking now of the female person that you were talking of.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I do not remember the white person who was with me but it was myself, a lady - I just forget her name, we were interrogating her in the office and there was another person who was sitting.  Sometimes he would sit, sometimes he would leave.  He would not be there all the time.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: And the second person, when he was questioned?  Was it the same white person in the office?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: That is so.

MR STANDER: Did you use any strong language to interrogate this person?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No.

MR STANDER: What language did you use?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: We were speaking Tswana and Sesotho.

MR STANDER: And was there somebody who acted as interpreter or were you the interpreter?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I was the interpreter.

MR STANDER: Sir, I would like to put to you that it was highly unlikely that somebody would be interrogated who apparently was on the point of leaving the country because of political activity and that when this person did not give you the answers you expected, that you would just have left that person.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Let me clear this, you do not understand this.  I'm on the 4th floor, I ask the person questions and if he doesn't want to co-operate I take him back to the 5th floor, I take the next person to the 4th floor to interrogate him.  I'm not saying I release the person totally.

MR STANDER: Tell me, did you hear any screaming while the interrogation of yours was taking place, in any of the neighbouring offices or in the passage?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, I was on the 4th floor, I didn't hear anything.

MR STANDER: Had there been screaming, would you have been able to hear it?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: You would hear the scream because my window was slightly open.

MR STANDER: And you said you heard no such screaming.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Nothing Sir.

MR STANDER: Did you return later on during the day to the office?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes.

MR STANDER: At what time more or less did you return to the office?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It was at about half past three and I went to discuss the issue of my informer with the captain.

MR STANDER: Were the group of informers still there?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, when I came back at half past three they were still present.

MR STANDER: Where were they?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I saw then on the 5th floor, that was when I went to get my things to go downstairs.

MR STANDER: Where were they on the 5th floor?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I said they were in the kitchen.

MR STANDER: Did you look at them again at that stage?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I was passing to go to the toilet and I would see them in the kitchen.  I did not get straight into my office, I went to the toilet and when I passed I saw them in the kitchen and I came out of the toilet, got into my office, took my stuff and went down.

MR STANDER: Did you look at them when you walked past the kitchen?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I just looked and passed.

MR STANDER: In the short time that you saw them, were there any of those that were upset?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I would not say they were upset because I was just passing quickly.

MR STANDER: So you couldn't see, is that what you were saying to us?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes.  I did not see properly, I just saw that these are the people and then I passed because it was full in that kitchen.

MR STANDER: [No English translation]