Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Wills sorry, before you commence - are your full names Bertwell Bheki Ndlovu?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I think in fairness to this applicant it would be appropriate for me to put the fact on record that I was instructed by the Legal Aid Board in respect of this applicant on the date that the application was signed.  And as a result of that - and I seem to recall that the cut-off date was looming for amnesty applications to be submitted, with the result that I have not had detailed instructions from the client, and neither have I been involved in any of the court cases that this individual has been involved in prior to me being instructed, unlike the case with the other applicants where I've had a rather long history.  That is the result - I mean that has resulted in the fact of his application being rather terse and short, and it is our intention at this stage to expand reasonably considerably on the rather brief details given in the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Mr Ndlovu you were born in Mpumalanga, Unit 2, in 1970?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: You schooled in Mpumalanga?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: And at a relatively young age you became involved in the activities of the IFP, is that right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: In fact unlike what appears in your amnesty application, you actually became involved in the IFP in 1984 when you were 14 years of age, not in 1980, that was a mistake in your application, is that right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how you got involved with the IFP?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I started being involved in the IFP when it was still a liberation movement.  I was staying at Woody Glen at that time.  There was a central committee of the youth at the time.  Boys my age were collected and were encouraged to become involved in the IFP Youth League.  They would patrol the area at night because they were suspicious that Mr RD Sishi who worked with a committee of councillors called "Mpoera".

MR WILLS: This is a civic organisation, is that correct - Mpoera?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes something of that nature, I am not well versed with it.

MR WILLS: Yes, and did you get involved voluntarily?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: No Bengo Makateni came to me, he was with some other person who in the youth committee at that time.

MR WILLS: Yes, sorry, just for the record, this acronym that I referred to, "Mpoera", stands for Mpumalanga Residents Association, is that correct Mr Ndlovu?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you were from the Woody Glen area, who was the IFP leader in that area at the time?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: It was Mrs Thlontlo.

MR WILLS: And is she also known as Mrs Ngoma, that's another name for her?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Mamo Ngoma because she was a Sangoma.

MR WILLS: Now in - can you describe the activities you got involved in in those early days when you were a member of the IFP Youth?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: At the time we used to patrol and we will be posted at other people's homes that if, maybe encounter a problem if people came to attack, you would be supposed to fight with them.  Nothing happened at that time until such time that an organisation called HYCO was formed ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Just let's stop there, HYCO being the Hammarsdale Youth Congress?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes, it was a movement for scholars.  This organisation was founded by Mashu and some of his colleagues.

MR WILLS: Just - if you can just slow down.  Mr Ndlovu there's a lot of people who are trying to listen to what you're saying, and also the interpreters have to interpret to the members of the community.  You've got all day, you don't have to rush.
	This person you referred to as being the founder-member of HYCO was the person called Mashu, is that right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes that's correct, he in collaboration with others.

MR WILLS: Yes, and he was the same person that Nyoni Hlongwane referred to yesterday in his evidence, is that correct, do you recall that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So okay, continue.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: At that time they had a practice of removing children from school.  They said Kwa-Zulu schools should be boycotted and they would sometimes stop drugs, bringing groceries to shops, and sometimes they would attack counsellors saying that they were Mr Botha's stooges, and they would burn counsellors' offices.
	At that time leaders from the Mpumalanga area were concerned about this because we were approached in Woody Glen that we should assist in fighting these people because the schools were built and the teachers were being paid from our parents' income, therefore what these boys were doing was very bad.

MR WILLS: Yes, and is it not so that you attended certain camps as a result of you being associated with the IFP Youth in the area?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: There was a camp near the Weber area.  There were rumours that the UDF was coming into the township because this was the only township that did not have the UDF.  We were given knives, bush-knives, to go camp at that area.  We would search cars and busses that would come into the area.
	We camped there for a while because nothing happened.  Instead we later discovered, or we were told, that those people that we were supposed to guard against had already, were already in our midst.  At that time the police would come and would enquire from older people and people who were educated, they would inform them that there was nothing happening, everything was fine, and the police would leave.

MR WILLS: Yes, so - I mean is it your evidence that the police would know that you were conducting these searches of vehicles coming into the Hammarsdale area?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And which police are these that you're referring to?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: South African Police.

MR WILLS: Now, just quickly Mr Ndlovu, what standard of education do you have?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I left school early, in standard 4.

MR WILLS: Mr Ndlovu, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MR WILLS: At the stage prior to you being trained as a special constable, you're not applying for amnesty in respect of anything you did in that period, is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I do not understand Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: The incidents in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, those incidents all occurred after you had been trained as a special constable during the course of 1988, is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, I think that I am seeking amnesty for activities that occurred in Mpumalanga before I joined the Police Force and after I joined the Police Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu your - can you specify incidents which occurred prior to the 17th of June 1991, because your application form states that you're applying for incidents in respect of murder and attempted murder from 17 June 1991 to 17 December 1991.  Sorry ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, possibly ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there's also: "during 1988" on another form.

MR WILLS: If I could assist Mr Chair ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, I think you just lead the witness on.

MR WILLS: Is it not correct - Mr Ndlovu I don't want you to get confused here, we're obviously going to be telling the Amnesty Committee and the members of the community about everything that you've done and all of your involvement in respect of politics and political involvement up until you were eventually incarcerated, do you understand that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.