Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Sir, he told me that people were going to be shot at and he would even tell me not to go there because I was going to be hurt and then he would take a newly recruited askari and leave me behind, a person who has experience, and try to protect me.  Meaning that he did not care, he did not bother about the lives of the other people, is that what you mean?

MR CORNELIUS: No, no.  Well it might be speculation, I'll leave it for argument.  The testimony will be that there were no instructions issued to shoot the people and that an incident occurred where the askaris acted in self-defence.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Self-defence, they are the people who started this whole thing by infiltrating, why did not they reinforce, why didn't they call the other people if they were foreseeing the possibility that they would be shooting?  Which askari would come and say that I was hurt here and point out that he was hurt by those people?  Why were the only group of people who were injured were those comrades who were injured, if those people were protecting themselves, were acting in self-defence?

MR CORNELIUS: It's an interesting statement you're making now.  So you are quite convinced in your mind that there was no action of self-defence by the C10 members, by the askaris?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: De Kock told me that those people were going to shoot at those people and that is the truth that he told me and the people were shot at.  Nothing was mentioned about the self-defence, that is coming from you.  I was told by de Kock that the people were going to be shot at and I still maintain that.  That is why I made this application, it's because I knew very well that people were going to be shot at.  I wouldn't waste my time and come here and testify or make an application about this incident.

MR CORNELIUS: And you also can't find any reason why Mr de Kock would not apply?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is the one who can be in a better position to answer to that.

MR CORNELIUS: You cannot deny that the instructions from Durban Security was that counter-insurgency should take place in Natal?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know anything about such instruction, I was only getting my instructions from de Kock.  I cannot comment about anything that does not concern me, from CR Swart.

MR CORNELIUS: Precisely.  You don't know what the unit's functions in Natal were.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And you also do not know who fired the first shot.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was not present, how would I know that?

MR CORNELIUS: Precisely.  So you also do not know if they acted in self-defence, Sir.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I know that they went there to shoot.  The self-defence I don't know anything about that, I know what I know and I was told that they were going to shoot there.

MR CORNELIUS: I just want to peruse my notes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	In closing, your evidence-in-chief is full of "I cannot remember, I cannot be certain".  I'm stating to you that you are not certain of the evidence, as this happened a long time ago.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is also true.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius.  Mr Hugo, any questions?

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.  I'm not sure what the arrangement is as far as the short adjournment is concerned, if you want me to proceed now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Hugo, you can carry on.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Mr Nofomela, you're serving a jail sentence at the moment, isn't it?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And is the sentence the death penalty, or sentence was imposed on you for killing a white farmer near Britz, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And at the time you were still a member of Vlakplaas, is that correct?  When the murder was committed.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And just the night before you were to be hung in terms of this sentence, you made contact with the Legal Resources Centre, a statement was taken from you and as a result of that reprieve was given to you to enable you to testify in various Commissions about your allegations, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And you made an elaborate statement, telling the relevant parties that were involved in taking down these statements, exactly what you were up to and exactly in which operations you took part during your association with Vlakplaas, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: Subsequently to that the Harms Commission was then established and you testified at length about the activities of Vlakplaas, during the Harms Commission, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: One of the main issues during the Harms Commission that came about as a result of your statement, was the Maponya matter, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: And you will also recall that your version during the Harms Commission was that Japie Maponya was shot by Mr de Kock at Vlakplaas, right in front you.  Do you remember that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I remember that.

MR HUGO: And you will remember that you stuck to the version during the Harms Commission, also insisting that you were there present, right in front of you whilst Mr de Kock shot Mr Maponya through the head, is that right?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: And you were cross-examined at length about this and you still stuck to your guns, is that right?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: And then you testified in the criminal trial against Mr de Kock, also in the Maponya matter, and can you just tell us in short what was your version there, about the killing of Maponya?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not remember, Sir, there's a lot of things that I was involved in.  Not unless you can give me time and consult the records because here as far as I'm concerned, I'm here for the Chesterville matter.

MR HUGO: I'll tell you why I'm asking you these questions later.  You know full well what your version was, Mr Nofomela, what did you tell the Court, what did Mr de Kock do to Nofomela, in the criminal trial?

CHAIRPERSON: To Maponya.

MR HUGO: To Maponya.  Sorry, Mr Chairman.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I told them about the things that he did.

MR HUGO: Yes, well let me put it to you.  You said to the Court that you're sorry, you lied about the fact that Mr de Kock killed Mr Maponya by shooting him there at Vlakplaas, you didn't know what happened to Mr Maponya and this was just a lie to try and get you out of jail and to prevent you from being hung the following day.  Can you remember that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: You are lying now, you are the one who is lying, I did not mention that.  You just bring a proof so that we can see which one is lying between me and you.  Just bring that proof right now.

MR HUGO: We've got the record here, we'll go through that.  Did you during the criminal trial, consistently testify that de Kock killed Maponya at Vlakplaas, by shooting him?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I did not testify about that.

MR HUGO: What did you say, how was Maponya killed?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said I do not know.

MR HUGO: No, Mr Nofomela, you testified - you were one of the State witnesses against Mr de Kock in the Maponya trial, what was your version about the killing of Mr Maponya?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said I did not say a thing, I did not say how he was killed.  I did not say he was killed by de Kock.