Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-09

ADV DE JAGER: So it nothing to do with a political objective?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: It had a political objective because this situation, the reason of this whole situation is because the people were killed at Bisho.  That is why I was saying this thing was politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you stand to gain politically by killing him?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I don't want to lie because myself, there's nothing that I actually aimed to gain but all I was doing as a member of the former Ciskei Defence Force, I also wanted to protect the government.

ADV DE JAGER: What did this man - he didn't attack the government.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: May the speaker please repeat the question?

ADV DE JAGER: The deceased, was he involved in politics, did he attack the government?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I do not want to lie and say yes or no.  I do not know him.  I might say that he had something in fighting the soldiers and involved in politics but he felt affected by the shooting at Bisho and that is why he decided to come and attack me.  Therefore I can say that he had a political motive.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you that?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: He did not tell me but his actions to me indicated that he is also involved in such organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he belonged to a political party?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he belonged to a political party?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I do have knowledge because there in the area sometimes there would be meetings that would be held in a school, in a local school, Ngwekazi Junior Secondary School where the political organisations would meet and I understand that he used to attend those meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what I asked, I asked do you know if he belonged to a political party.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: No, I do not know that.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't give the date in your evidence when this incident happened, was it on the night of the 10th of September or the night of the 11th of September when this instrument was thrown at you?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: As far as I can recall it took place on the 11th of September in the morning.

ADV DE JAGER: And the killing took place in the afternoon of the 11th?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Which one?

CHAIRPERSON: There's only one killing we're talking
about.

ADV DE JAGER: The killing of your neighbour. You killed your neighbour on the afternoon of the 11th, is that correct?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I killed on the 11th in the morning.

ADV DE JAGER: In the morning.  When did you have to report back to Bisho?  You only had the day off you  told us.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I was supposed to go back on that day when I killed my neighbour.

ADV DE JAGER: So that evening you would have slept in the camp at Bisho or at the soldier's base and you would have been safe.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: On that particular night when he came to attack me I was not supposed to sleep at the base but in the morning after the night of the attack, in the morning I was supposed to report at the base.  In the morning, the day after the attack when I was attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you in fact report or didn't you report back?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I did not go back to the base on that particular day.

ADV DE JAGER: But should you have gone back on the 11th?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I was supposed to go back on the 11th, on the night when I killed the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
	Now, did you feel that you were being attacked because you were a member of the CDF, Ciskei Defence Force?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I knew that I would be attacked because as a soldier I was involved.  I expected to be attacked.  I knew that that would happen any time.

MS COLLETT: Was the Ciskei Defence Force seen as supporting the then government of the Ciskei under the control of Brigadier Gozo?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: The members of the Ciskei Defence Force
were supporting Brigadier Oupa Joshua Gozo.

MS COLLETT: Were you a member of the African Democratic Movement?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I was not a member of any organisation, I was only a soldier.

MS COLLETT: So you had no political affiliation at all?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Not at all, I was not involved in a political organisation even though I was a soldier under Brigadier Oupa Gozo at that time.  First of all, Brigadier Oupa Gozo had his organisation by the name of ADM.  We were told when we were at the hall in 1 Ciskei Battalion that as people were burnt and the councillors were involved, we had to protect them.

ADV SANDI: The deceased, was he opposed to Brigadier Gozo?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I wouldn't say he opposed him or not because Oupa Gozo himself killed people.

ADV SANDI: You were not - in other words, you were not aware of any activities by the deceased which showed that he was opposed to Gozo, is that what you are saying?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, because I would support what I'm saying by this.  The deceased never supported Brigadier Gozo.  If he did support Brigadier Gozo he wouldn't try to attack me because of what Brigadier Gozo did.

ADV SANDI: But he was not opposed either to Gozo?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, he was not supporting him because if he supported him he wouldn't attack me because I was a member of Brigadier Gozo's soldiers.

ADV DE JAGER: Couldn't he have attacked you because he was jealous of you having this girlfriend?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I wouldn't include that because it doesn't involve this.  I don't think that he was jealous of that.  That is not even close to what happened.  I wouldn't even think about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know you were at home that day?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Please repeat your question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know that you were at home that day, or don't you know?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I wouldn't say he knew whether I was home or not.  I would just say - I can't say how he knew but what I can say is that he was not aware.  He didn't know that I was at home because when I was given a week-end off in Bisho I arrived at home at night because I was avoiding people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS COLLETT: Was that the situation on this day, did you arrive in the evening for your day off?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I arrived in the evening.

MS COLLETT: Now, is it your testimony to the Committee that you believed that this took place because you were a member of the CDF?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I do have concrete and truthful evidence that as I was a member of the former Ciskei Defence Force the thing that happened in Bisho, the people were against it and that caused conflict between us and the people.

MS COLLETT: This incident took place some four days after the Bisho Massacre, is that correct?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: No - yes, it happened four days after the Bisho Massacre.

MS COLLETT: Were emotions still running high at that time between the civilians and the CDF members?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, the emotions were still running very high.  Things were not better but instead of getting better they were worse.

MS COLLETT: Now after the deceased was killed, did you meet with the family at all?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: After I killed the deceased he was buried.  After some few months I would greet his mother and she did not show any bad attitude against me.  Even if I was going to work I would meet his mother and she did not have a negative attitude towards me.  Even her children I was able to send them to the shop to buy me a cooldrink and they wouldn't refuse.

MS COLLETT: Would you class the relationship between you and the deceased family as being good or not?