Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: It was a piece of paper and it had people's names, and those people had been responsible for actually preventing the children from going to school.

MR LAX: So it wasn't a list about ANC members, it was a list about who were responsible for preventing children from going to school?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Those people were ANC members and had been supported by the ANC.

MR LAX: But how do you know that, you keep saying that, but every time you refer to them, you refer to them as ANC, but you're referring to people who did something you didn't approve of.   I'm saying how did you know they were ANC members?   Did you see their cards, did you go and see the records of the branch where they had joined up?   How can you tell us you're so certain they were ANC members?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I did not come from that area, but the people from the area actually told me so and I had no reason not to believe them, because they are the ones who knew their neighbours, they are the people who had actually witnessed and who had experienced this.

MR LAX: So you don't know for sure whether they're ANC members or not, or were ANC members, and you really didn't care, you just were told they were ANC, that was good enough for you?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Chief Tjalesa a member of the ANC?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No.   The Nkosi only joined the IFP when we arrived in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you discuss with him the problem of this man who was living under him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, we did not discuss such matters with the Nkosi.   We would not have discussed this with him.

MR LAX: You were never charged for this incident, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.   The case was withdrawn at Ixopo.

MR LAX: So you were actually charged?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.

MR LAX: Why was the case withdrawn?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: There was no corroborating evidence.

MR LAX: Thank you, continue Mr Matthews.

MR MATTHEWS: You did not have any personal vendetta against Maphuthalenza Dlamini, is that correct, other than the fact that he was an ANC member?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, there was no personal grudge.

MR MATTHEWS: The next incident pertains to the murder of three Transkei soldiers in 1993.   On the 15th of January 1996 you were in fact found guilty of the murder of these three persons, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: And for their murder you were sentenced to life imprisonment?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: What led up to the killing of these three Transkei soldiers?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Ngubane was killed and the people who killed him had been travelling in a Corolla, and Mr Khumalo and some other lady had also been shot at by the same people.   After a few days, I arrived at the area and I constructed a roadblock near the Ngawu, and I searched all cars that were approaching along the Umzinkulu roads.   A van approached and instructed them to return, and then a Sprinter with a CB registration plate approached.   At the back of that car, the registration number started with XM.   I was therefore certain that this was the car that had been responsible for the attack on Ngubane.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't the person who attacked Ngubane travelling in a white Toyota Corolla Sprinter with Transvaal numberplates?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's what I heard when I arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: That it was Transvaal numberplates?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: What led you to suspect that this vehicle with the Transkei registration plates was involved?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I saw three different things.   The front registration plate said CB, the disc said SH and the back registration plate said XM.   I was then convinced that these are the people who are responsible for killing us, because at the Amazolovini area, the people were not trained in the use of firearms.   They were just attacking, they attacked somebody who was innocent.

MR MATTHEWS: Was there any information about soldiers or police from the Transkei attacking the IFP in that area?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I will put it clearly that Holomisa was in charge of the Transkei Defence Force and he sided with the ANC, and that is why I thought that these were the people who were responsible for attacking us, because of all the differences in the registration plates.

MR MATTHEWS: Were there a spate of attacks on IFP people in the area at the time?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, they were being attacked and killed by unknown persons.

MR MATTHEWS: You were convicted of this offence, as I've already stated, and it is recorded that the judge at your trial said the following:  that you felt no remorse for the fact that you killed a Transkeian soldier and participated in the killing of the other two, and even after conviction you held a view that the killing of the deceased were justifiable on the basis that the three deceased were the enemies of his people?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: And that they, the Transkei soldiers, had killed many of your own people?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.   When these soldiers died, I never cared again that people from Ixopo area had been killed by unknown persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we go back a little?   Before you killed these three soldiers for having taken part in an attack, had you stopped another truck and taken three black males out of it?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I think that is correct.   That truck was red in colour.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you taking them into the sugar cane to shoot them when you were stopped by Lunda Mkhize, who said he knew them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That was at a different area in ...(indistinct), that was a separate incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but there you were again going to kill three people you took out of a truck, but you were stopped because Lunda Mkhize knew them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter two policemen arrived in a police vehicle?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They said they had come to fetch you, but you threatened them and said that if they fired 15 shots, yours would be the 16th?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I was telling them the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   And did you threaten them and tell them to put their guns down?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, the white policemen put his R5 rifle down.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't that the black policeman who put the R5 rifle down, and the white policeman who put his pistol back into the holster?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think the white policeman put his gun down.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm reading from your affidavit.   And did you tell them you would give them five minutes to depart otherwise you would start shooting?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think I said I'll give them ten or five minutes.   Indeed they left thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they apologise and leave?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, they apologised, got into the van and left.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where did these policemen come from?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I am not sure, between the High Flats and the Sawood area.

CHAIRPERSON: And the - what other area did you say?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Sawood.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was the second time when you had not been arrested?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's true.

MR MATTHEWS: And these Transkei soldiers were then killed, is that correct, and their bodies eventually dumped in a forest?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's very true.

MR MATTHEWS: Just explain to the Committee again, why did you people kill these Transkei soldiers?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Please repeat your question?

MR MATTHEWS: What necessitated the killing of these Transkei soldiers?