Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just - we would have had a lunch break at one o'clock. Unfortunately the catering arrangements for those who are having lunch arranged for them are for half past one, and so I thought we would go on to half past one.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you.  You were telling us Mr Sono that you were told that you should go and make a report at the Meadowlands police station, and is that what you did?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, that's what I did.  When I got to Meadowlands police station I was shown a office where I should make my statement and a black policeman attended to me.

MR UNTERHALTER: And did you make a statement to them?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, I did report the matter what happened, but when it came to a statement when I said to that policeman, in that blue kombi in the front seat there was Mrs Mandela and the other boys that I didn't know, I only know Mrs Mandela and Michael the driver, that policeman stopped writing and he said to me he wants to refer to somebody, the senior there. Then he went to a Captain Kleynhans and spoke to him.  And Captain Kleynhans said to him he can carry on with the statement.  So we finished off the statement, all in details, and it was in the hands of the police, and I went to work.

MR UNTERHALTER: Were you given a case number?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I was not given a case number.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now what happened thereafter as far as police investigations of this matter are concerned?

NICODEMUS SONO: I heard nothing from the police and the time went by and I thought of it that, should I go back to Mrs Mandela and speak to her about my son? I had fear but at the same time I thought maybe Lolo is somewhere in Zambia in the ANC camps or something, but I stayed with this matter as it is, and in January 1989, the beginning of January, I did have courage and I said I'm going to see Mrs Mandela.  And I went to see Mrs Mandela. I spoke to her about my son, ask her that what actually happened that day, because are they abroad or what?  She said to me, no, Lolo we dropped him off somewhere, and she wouldn't say somewhere where.  And when I looked at her I could see that now she doesn't like my presence and me asking her about Lolo.  Then I went away.  That was early January.
 In February again ...(intervention)

MR UNTERHALTER: Sorry, could I just stop you.  Mrs Mandela's response was simply that we dropped off Lolo somewhere?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, she said "somewhere", yes, but she doesn't say somewhere where.  That's what she said.

MR UNTERHALTER: Sorry, what happened then?

NICODEMUS SONO: I went again in February and I got the same answer.  And when the Stompie Seipei thing came up, I started thinking, should I go to Mrs Mandela? I said yes, of course, why not?  I kept on going to Mrs Mandela, and I spoke to her several times, and she couldn't just, you know, come out with a clear answer.
 And I remember at some stage in 1989 I had financial constraints which she knew of and I spoke to her about it.  And Mrs Mandela, she gave me a cheque of R751, that was concerning my bond and she helped me pay it.  She gave me the cheque and I paid to SA Perm by then.  And she helped me with that and we were in talking terms.  But just before Mr Mandela was released I went three to four times, and she refused to see me.

MR UNTERHALTER: So you are saying shortly before Mr Mandela was released you actually went to her house three or four times, is that on the same day?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, on the same day.

MR UNTERHALTER: And why wouldn't she speak to you?

NICODEMUS SONO: I don't know, because the lady that came out she told me Mrs Mandela is busy preparing for the press conference.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see.  Now if I can then just take you to the question of the police and their investigations, or lack of them, were you ever contacted again by the police?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I was not contacted by the police until that some police came to me, that was in February towards the end, they took me and Mrs Shabalala to a Diepkloof morgue.

MR UNTERHALTER: Diepkloof morgue.

NICODEMUS SONO: Diepkloof morgue.  They identified themselves as police who were working on cases at Natal Midlands and they have locked up quite a lot of people there as they said to me and they want us to go and try and identify bodies in the morgue, if we can be able to identify those bodies.

MR UNTERHALTER: And were you able to identify your son?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, they were unknown bodies to us, and we were taken back to Meadowlands.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now at the time of Mrs Mandela's trial, were you contacted again by the police or by the Attorney General's office?

NICODEMUS SONO: We were contacted by the police, we were subpoenaed to go to the Supreme Court, and it was in 1991 when I saw Captain Dempsey for the first time, who pretended to be knowing me ...(intervention)

MR UNTERHALTER: When you say he pretended to be knowing you, what do you mean?  What did Captain Dempsey say?

NICODEMUS SONO: He said to me, good morning Nicodemus Sono, I am Captain Dempsey, I'm investigating your son's case.  And I did not know him. He said he know me, he spoke to me, and it was the first time he was speaking to me.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  And you were interviewed at the time of the trial by Captain Dempsey, is that correct?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, he spoke to me briefly and he said to me he wants me to go to the advocates and tell them what happened.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes, and did you tell the Attorney General's office what happened?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, I did tell them what happened.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. You were not called as a witness, however, at the trial?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I was not called.  All what they said to me, they said to me we must be stand-by, me, Mr Shabalala, and other two boys that were from Thokoza, and we stayed there at the courts. They never called us.  The last thing that they told me is that there is not enough evidence in my case, so they cannot put it through.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you have any contact with Commissioner George Fivaz, and when did that happen?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, that has happened in 1995, March.  We went to Commissioner Fivaz in his offices in Cape Town, and I went to him to tell him my story, and he said to me he will ask the police to look for the docket, and as soon as the police get the docket he is going to make sure that they pursue the matter, it must not be left unattended, but he sympathised with me and he was very professional in his words.  He did not want to commit himself and he just said he will make sure the police do their work.

MR UNTERHALTER: And were you contacted again by the police thereafter?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, there was no contact from the police.

MR UNTERHALTER: No contact from the police.

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I had no contact from the police except that the following day, or just a few days after we came from Cape Town, Captain Dempsey came to my place. He was very cross with us because he said what is this thing of you going to see Mr Fivaz in Cape Town.  He didn't like that.

MR UNTERHALTER: Are you aware, Mr Sono, that the docket in this matter has gone missing? Are you aware of that?

NICODEMUS SONO: I am not aware of that.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see.  Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Sono, were you more active in ANC underground structures than just taking the ammunition to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house on that occasion?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, I can say I was active in the way that when the guys came I was their contact and I helped them as much as I can.

MR VALLY: You owned a small fleet of mini-buses, is that correct?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you use this for ANC underground activities?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, if it come to a push that they need transport, I had to transport them.