Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: : Let me put it in this manner then, that the 16th of December when you arrived at the Voortrekker Monument, and there was no war yet.   Let's just accept that the revolution was not successful, as you viewed it, but you believed that the 16th of December would be a good date for war to start.  When you got there, and the 16th came and went, and there was no war, did you believe then that you acted in instructions from the AWB, to start a revolution.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is correct.

MR DREYER: : Then I would put it to you Sir, that yourself, you never had any direct order to execute these deeds, that ended in the murder of the people on that particular evening?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is your statement Sir.

MR DREYER: : And I would further put it to you Sir, that you formulated your opinion according to your own conviction, according to your own feelings, of what was happening on the political terrain and according to your military background and your belief that you could do something about it.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I would state again that those are the statements that you make.   Those are not my statements.

MR DREYER: : And I would further put it to you that from the misinterpretation of whatever was said there at this meeting, you conveyed an order to the rest of your group, that you never received yourself.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : There was no misinterpretation of the whole order.   The order was executed as it was put to me.

MR DREYER: : Specifically, I wish to put it to you that Japie Oelofse, at no stage at all, gave any order to you to kill people.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He did give this order to me and that is what we did.

MR DREYER: : In spite of what General Oelofse would have told you, even in the papers it was common knowledge that, at that time, not only members of the AWB, but the general public were called up to collect supplies and get ready, if there was any problem with the election.  Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is correct.

MR DREYER: : So it would not be necessary for General Oelofse to give you a specific order, in terms of that.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : It was a direct order from the leader on stage, to the area commanders, it was given to them by the area commanders.

MR DREYER: : With the exception of military preparation for things that could go wrong, during the election, and the short time afterwards, and you say that the general public in South Africa and more specifically, the White section of the population, at some or other manner, did they not prepare themselves for that, that they did not know what could happen, but things could happen.   Did you say that they did not prepare yourself.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I cannot answer to that but I think they did prepare themselves.

MR DREYER: : This preparation is not something that was limited to the AWB.   Is that correct?   This was in a broader sense applicable to the general public then.   Let me put it in the antithesis then.   Do you not think that there was any doubt amongst the black people of what was to happen that time.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's possible.

MR DREYER: : So, if we look at both sides, emotions ran high.  As it pleases the Court.   All I wish to put to you then, that you want to tell us that there was no possibility that you had participated in discussion, or according to your leader's speech from the political podium, could have misinterpreted it, as a direct instruction to commit these offences that you did.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : This was not a speech from a podium.   This was a man to man instruction that was given to me.

MR DREYER: : You have listened yesterday and you saw the video of the speech that Eugene Terreblanche made, and at some stage during your cross-examination, I asked you that why did people not in reaction to that speech, as you did on a large scale acted in a military style, and if I remember correctly, it is said that there was not strange to you because Eugene Terreblanche has made these statements for quite a long time.  Is that not so?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Then I wish to ask from you:  are you telling me that over the years you did not concern yourself with the call-up, and the charismatic speeches that the AWB leader made, but according to your own version, when you received a vague order to, in the line of I want to see corpses, that pointed to a specific action.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : The speeches that leader gave, increased from the years 1992, and then 1993, I entered the struggle again.  I volunteered to help within the AWB structures.

CHAIRPERSON: : If an order is given, an order is given.  Does it matter whether it comes from a charismatic leader or not?

MR DREYER: : Mr Chairman, what I wanted to put forth to the applicant is the following:   Against his own version, and its not something that I stated, it must be borne in mind that at one stage, the applicant stated that the level of excitement manifested subsequent to such speeches by Eugene Terreblanche was on such a level, that people left the hall.   He, himself, so enraged that he would contemplate the possibility of murdering his own domestic servant.   It is against that background that I am putting it to him as follows, and that is the basis of my question.
	If over the years, and even taking into account that the intensity and the frequency of those speeches, according to his own version, really got to motion during the latter part of 1993, that did not result in a large amount of people walking out there and physically getting involved in these type of things, as opposed to a sort of a broad, on his own version, because its denied that such an order was given.   But, on his own version, he attends a single meeting and stated that:  `nou wil ek lyke sien'.   No detail, nothing, but that is the order which prompts him to gather 8 other people and go along, hold the road-block and kill people.   That is the difficulty....

CHAIRPERSON: : A military order is a military order.  It does not have to be said many times ...
...[inaudible] if he did give such an order, an order is an order.

MR DREYER: That is so Mr Chairman, if indeed what was given was a precise order to do something specific, but on his own version, there was no such order.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we've heard about that, that's another thing.  I know - we know that it's in dispute.

MR DREYER: We'll go back to the execution of this order.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should we go back?  What for?   You said let's go back, why do we have to go back again Mr Dreyer?  Is this something new?

MR DREYER: Yes it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Then let us adjourn, it's a convenient time you can proceed with it at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer for the Committee, the copies?

MR DREYER: Yes Mr Chairman I have provided each of the Members of the Committee with a copy of the relevant pages.  I have one more matter which was the last one I referred to that refers to that proceedings and once I've dealt with that I will just recap in relation to the papers that I've handed up just to point out the relevant portions that I refer to in the course of my cross-examination.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: (s.u.o.)

MR DREYER: (continues)
	Mr Kloppers, my last remark to you was that we would return to the core of my cross-examination and that was the order which you would have received and we have discussed the various matters which you have presented as "it wasn't the truth" and then you say "the reason why I did it was to protect the AWB and certain leadership figures.  Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.