Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Was there not another rifle grenade at the Tavern in the possession of Mr Madasi?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, not according to my knowledge.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that the rifle grenade is shot off from the rifle, the R4, with a special ballistic round?  It is a special round other than the usual ammunition used by the R4?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, you are correct.

MR PRIOR: All right.  Now, would you agree that given the description of the attack as you have told the Committee this morning, this afternoon, the spent cartridges would they have landed on the pavement that is outside the Tavern?  On your version as you have described the event of the attack?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Are you asking which direction the cartridges landed?

MR PRIOR: The question, even simpler is, would they have landed outside the Tavern on the pavement or in the street?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The cartridges landed on any direction as we shot.  They can fall in front of you or behind you or at the side.

MR PRIOR: But not inside the Heidelberg Tavern, because you were never inside the Tavern is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We did not enter.  They could have fallen inside.  The could have shot forward and the cartridges could have fallen inside the Tavern.

MR PRIOR: With that are you saying it is possible they could have fallen in the doorway, entering into the Tavern?  May I rephrase that question.  How far into the Tavern do you think they could have gone in?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot estimate, but I do think that they could have fallen inside, because we had broken the windows as well.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may it please the Committee.  I do have a set of photographs depicting the interior of the Tavern and which will demonstrate the point that I am endeavouring to make with this line of questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Should you not clear up whether he went inside the Tavern or not, whether he fired from the doorway of the Tavern?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, he has on several occasions indicated that he did not enter, nor did any of his colleagues, as far as he is aware, enter the Tavern and fired from that position.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, where did you fire from?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was standing just before the door, I did not enter the Tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it material now whether firing took place from within?

MR PRIOR: It is now material Mr Chairman.  I do have video footage and I do have photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the evidence going to contradict what he is saying?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to him.

MR PRIOR: As the Committee pleases.  I put it to you that you are not telling us the truth, that the evidence I am going to present to you now, suggests that the people that shot at the patrons inside of the Tavern, were in fact inside the Tavern and very close to the people who were shot and killed and injured.  And that the shooting could never have only taken place from the doorway as you have described.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was there.  I committed this.  I have come here to tell you how I did this.  If somebody entered the Tavern, as far as I know there is nobody who entered the Tavern.  If you are saying I am lying, you must give me evidence or reasons as to why you think I am deceptive.  I do not have a reason to be deceptive here.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, will it be appropriate to show the video.  I think it is more descriptive than the photograph of the point I wish to demonstrate.

CHAIRPERSON: You better tell him what the purpose of this exercise is.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be permitted to move my position possibly to the left hand side of Adv Sandi?

CHAIRPERSON: I believe we are going to be shown something on the video about what happened or what is inside the Tavern, I don't know, but that is what is being done now, do you understand?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, we understand.

MR PRIOR: .

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, we are about to see video footage of the interior of the Tavern as taken by the Police team on the morning after the attack.  What is being depicted is the front door of the Tavern.
	Mr Chairman, just for the record, the cartridges are circled in white chalk.  Mr Chairman, the relevance of this is the cartridge on top of the table and those four underneath the table.
	Mr Chairman, the relevance of this shot is the cartridges in proximity to the deceased, one of the deceased, Yolanda Palm, particularly the one to the left hand side of her head.  As one could see at the top of the picture.
	Mr Chairman, the camera moves to a raised portion of the interior of the Tavern, where the other two deceased lay, that is Bernadette Langford and Lindi Fourie.
	Mr Chairman, between the two bodies is a cartridge against the panelling of the wall encircled in white chalk, as well as one on the left hand side of one of the bodies.
	Mr Chairman, this view is of the front door.  Mr Chairman, that suffices for purposes of my cross-examination.  The rest is simply additional footage, unless the Committee wishes to I am satisfied that that suffices, thank you.
	May I proceed Mr Chairman, thank you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, can I just ask that we also be given an idea of where those cartridges are alleged to come from, are they from AK47, R4 rifle, rifle grenade, where do they exactly come from?

MR PRIOR: The information at our disposal, from an R4 rifle.  Mr Gqomfa, you followed the footage of the video tape and do you agree that what is depicted therein are spent cartridges, substantially within the premises of the Restaurant and Bar and particularly close to where the three deceased are lying, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Can you possibly explain how they landed there?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I wouldn't know how the cartridges got there.  I did not go there to look at cartridges, I went there to shoot people.

MR PRIOR: Is it not the truth Mr Gqomfa, that the persons who shot and killed the deceased inside the Restaurant, in fact entered into the Restaurant, followed the path that we see on the video and shot all the time whilst inside the Restaurant?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, that is not true.

MR PRIOR: In fact I want to suggest to you that given the proximity of the cartridges next to the deceased's bodies, the firing took place at point blank range.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I do not agree with you that the people who shot the people at the Restaurant, were inside the Restaurant.

JUDGE WILSON: But those cartridge cases we saw, must have come from the gun that was shot off inside the Restaurant, mustn't they?  Or somebody must have taken them there, they couldn't have come there from outside, could they?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I would not know, but what I am sure of is that I was standing by the door, I did not go into the Restaurant.

MR PRIOR: Is it not also correct that the damage that we saw towards the end of the video tape, the scar marks in the wood panelling, in the passage way facing the front door, was caused by a person firing in that direction, in other words leaving the inside of the premises?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I do not agree with that at all, because what I am sure of is that nobody entered the Tavern.  I did not enter it either.

ADV SANDI: Mr Gqomfa, how far would you say was the closest person to you that you opened fire on?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: There were people next to the door.  There is the door on the right, the people I first shot were the people who were directly opposite the door, not far from the door.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that they were very close to you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, they were very close.