Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-24

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: In the metallurgical division.

UNKNOWN: Did you receive any instruction with regard to where you worked? What you had to find there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was told to me by General Oelofse that he wanted cyanide from the metallurgical plant. That we had to put in the drinking water or reservoirs of Soweto which would cause the death of many blacks.

UNKNOWN: Your commando or the division of which you were the commander did you have anything to do with Inkatha?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We were personally involved with the training of Inkatha and there was about 12 people were given to us who were trained by us.

UNKNOWN: And the instruction to train these persons, where did this come from?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I received this instruction from General Jappie Oelofse.

UNKNOWN: And on the 2nd of December 1993, this was on a Sunday, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: What happened there on that particular day?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That particular day I was called into a meeting by higher placed officers. Initially I could not understand why I was called and later I understood why I was involved. It was for all area commanders. And when I arrived at the plot of General Oelofse I knew that here on this day something big would happen. There were a few guards.

UNKNOWN: Explain to us? The Committee do not understand.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Roaming guards, they patrol the whole place. The whole place was patrolled from the fences and there were two guards at the gate that stopped me and asked me for identification. I attended the meeting and amongst others the whole year's activities was discussed and also the financial state, our recruitment attempts and I was praised over these activities.

UNKNOWN: Was it strange to you or was it normal that on a Sunday you had to attend such a meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was strange for me that this happened on a Sunday. Ordinarily it would have been on a normal work day and or at extreme cases on a Saturday but it was strange that this happened on a Sunday.

UNKNOWN: And what happened at this meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At this meeting particularly all points where they were with the finance and all the members, the constructing and afterwards it was told to us that the Generals in staff came to the decision that the revolution would start on the same day, on the 12th of December 1993. And that all areas had to participate.

UNKNOWN: This order group meeting, you have said these were all the area commanders?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes area commanders.

UNKNOWN: Was any of the Generals in staff present there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, General Oelofse was there and Brigadier van der Heever, he was the training brigadier.

UNKNOWN: Is that Chris van der Heever?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is right. And as I have said General Jappie Oelofse. And there was from the flight commando; Commander Ryno and others, I do not know them personally. At this meeting it was told to us that General Oelofse personally would want to see all the area commanders individually.

UNKNOWN: Why individually?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As he pointed out we worked in secrecy, we do not know who to trust and every person who received an instruction that it was his own instruction and he had to handle his own area.

UNKNOWN: And did you receive any instruction?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I personally spoke to General Oelofse. He was aware of the fact of what my area was capable of and the General recommended that I put up a roadblock. And when I asked him about it he said I had the necessary equipment like the reflectors jackets, blue lights and previously myself and Commander Deon Martin, he is now a colonel, and one Mr Gerhard Innerse, he is in New Castle Prison. We had a test run and it worked hundred percent. We could stop vehicles and people were surprised to see that AWB persons stopped them. But I was not concerned because we carried out the message that we do care.

UNKNOWN: What was your further instruction? You had to set up this roadblock?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: What he put clearly to me is this is the "real Macoy" and he mentioned also that he wanted to see corpses.

UNKNOWN: What did you understand by "real Macoy"?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: "Real Macoy" was the real thing. If you are in the army then you know when you are on foot patrol and they say that you are on "real McCoy" and then you would know soon you would have contact.

UNKNOWN: Was it out to you that he wanted to see corpses? What did you understand by that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I understood it that if I made contact with the target group then I had to shoot.

UNKNOWN: Did you understand that you were, this particular evening, you just had to shoot or what was the situation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I do not know what was said to the other area commanders that is why I did what was told to me to identify a target group, namely the ANC/SACP.

UNKNOWN: When you put up this roadblock and every vehicle that passes there is ANC what would you have done under those circumstances?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Every vehicle with ANC persons I would have eliminated all of them.

UNKNOWN: Was there any discussion with regard to weapons?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I had a problem my men were sharpened up with the training by Meiring was one hundred percent, people were trained, we had pipe shot guns, pump action shot guns and so forth. I did not have enough weapons. I put it to him that I would have a shortage of weapons. And General Oelofse took me outside and he - I would call it a canopy, it is a steel construction that was on a lorry that was on his property. We went with a flashlight because it was already dark and he shone the light and he took out 2 pipe shot guns and he gave it to me.

UNKNOWN: When he gave these pipe shot guns to you he knew what was going to be done with them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Absolutely. Because he gave the instruction that he wanted to see corpses.

UNKNOWN: But under normal conditions people would not stand at a roadblock with shot guns?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I could not answer this because I have never been involved with a roadblock.

UNKNOWN: At the first roadblock did you have shot guns?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The first test run, no not with the first test run.

UNKNOWN: What did you do afterwards, after you received the order?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Directly after I received the order I saw it was about six thirty and because I did not have Commander Martin's telephone number with me, I asked General Oelofse for the number.

UNKNOWN: Who is Fannie Oelofse?  Is that General Oelofse's wife?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: What was her involvement with the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: She handled the finance amongst others. My wife was directly under her command. She was closely involved with head quarters at the control of uniforms and so forth.

UNKNOWN: Did she have any rank or was she just?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: She was a colonel in the hierarchy and while we were in prison she was promoted to brigadier.

UNKNOWN: Did she have any training that you know of?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The training that she received I do not know but that she did receive training from Commander Callie Meiring that I know of.

UNKNOWN: And you said you called? Continue from there?