Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: What evidence did you have that Mr Hani said this when you made your original application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I knew about it, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: How did you know about it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I was affected by it.

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I was affected by it.

UNKNOWN: How did you know that Mr Hani had said that,
"... far right Conservative Party as legitimate targets ...",
where did you see that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I could not remember, Mr Chairman, ...

UNKNOWN: You could not remember.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and that could be why my legal team advised me to take it out, but I subsequently became aware of a report in the London Times in 1988 in the United Kingdom which actually was, broadly, the same statement.

JUDGE WILSON: But in your, as I understand it, what was your original application, you gave all this information, did you not?  Page eight was your original application, was it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page eight.

UNKNOWN: 15 To 21.  Although they are not marked, it will give you some idea where on the page, Mr.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 19 says,
"According to the London Times, 08/06/88."

UNKNOWN: Would you like to think of another explanation in view of Judge Wilson's ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: ... bringing to our attention that what you have said immediately before was not correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 18, page 18?

JUDGE WILSON: Page eight, paragraph 18.

MR PRINSLOO: Page eight, paragraph 19.

UNKNOWN: 19, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it 19, sorry.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Then it could have been because I did not have access to the documentation at the time, Mr Chairman, but I cannot remember everything what I, what, but I want to stipulate that everything that I submitted was on the advice of my legal team.  That is why we submitted that application.

MR PRINSLOO: Just show me the full text of this.

UNKNOWN: Page eight, paragraph 22, yes.  Please look at the bottom of page eight of R7.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page eight.

UNKNOWN: "We decided that we would try to prevent this
take-over and we set about planning how to do this.".
Who is the "we" that you are referring to there?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Is it this page?

MR PRINSLOO: I do not know.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not clear which page eight Mr Bizos is referring to.  Page eight ...

UNKNOWN: Of ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... of ...

UNKNOWN: ... of R7.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... R7.  The last sentence, right.
"We decided we would try to prevent this take-over and we set about planning to do this."
Yes.

UNKNOWN: Who is the "we"?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Walus and I.

UNKNOWN: Just the two of you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: If you have a look at bundle A, page 21, paragraph eight ...

JUDGE WILSON: Where is paragraph eight?  My page 21 has got three paragraphs on it.

UNKNOWN: Could I refer to the middle paragraph.

JUDGE WILSON: Where is that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is page 21.

UNKNOWN: You see the middle of the paragraph, of the middle paragraph of page 21, you actually place, you only mention that Mr,
"He decided that he would deal with Chris Hani and set about planning his campaign.".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was after I identified Mr Hani as the target, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Now, but why ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He still had to make the decision to ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Why did the "we" become "he" in the second application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Once again, on the advice of my legal team, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And again, in the old application you say,
"We decided that Mr Walus would reconnoitre Mr Hani's place of residence.".
Do you see that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: But that changes in,
"He set out reconnoitring Hani's address.".
Why did the "we" become "he".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because during our discussions it was clear to my legal representative that, in fact, Walus had said he would carry the recces, I did not decide that with him and that is why they advised me to change it.

UNKNOWN: And then you say in the old,
"I handed the firearm to Mr Walus on the sixth April in order to execute the plan.",
but in the new application you say,
"Although I handed Mr Walus the firearm on 6 April ... as I was determined to give as a matter that was as important and as significant as this one further thought.".
Why was it decided to change that aspect of the application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was, once again, the advice of my legal representative, Mr Chairman, after consultation.

UNKNOWN: But, do you take advice from your legal advisers as to what the facts were or do you take advice as to what the Law or practice is?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I take advice from my legal advisers who advise me once they have heard what the facts were.

UNKNOWN: And then you see the other two inconsistencies which are, I do not want to read out, but what I want to put to you is that there were material changes of fact between the two applications, both under oath, in order to assist yourself in the success of the application without any regard to the truth, particularly in relation to the matters to which I have drawn your attention.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: That is not correct.  Now, I want to turn to your application.  The list, the list of facts.  In bundle A, I beg your pardon, the list is actually in bundle B, Mr Chairman.  Will you please have a look at bundle B, page two.  Okay.  Have you got it on page two of bundle B or one and two ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Again ...

UNKNOWN: ... in which annexure A is contained with a list of acts of violence committed.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I want to confine myself from page one right up to the 10th of April 1993 in which your murder of Chris Hani is recorded and I want to ask you some questions of a general nature in relation to any one, to all of these acts.  Do you say that any of the acts listed in annexure A was done for or on behalf of the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I testified, Mr Chairman, that this list was drawn up by the Afrikaner Weerstand Beweeging and it was, according to them, an accurate record of all acts of violence or attack which had been carried out by people on the right.

UNKNOWN: Please answer my question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not say anything about the CP, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: I asked you whether you pertain that anyone of these acts was committed for and on behalf of the Conservative Party, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: No.  Right.  We can proceed from there.  Would you agree that, except for your act on the 10th of April 1993, with one exception which I will draw your, possible exception that I will draw your attention to, that these acts of violence were directed at property rather than individuals?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not aware of when these acts were perpetrated, but I look at one on the 21st of December 1991 which says a bomb explodes at a beer-hall in Costa, I am not aware of the time that that was carried out. It could have been full of people.  There is no further details on that.

UNKNOWN: Well, let us leave that with a question mark.  Have a look at the others and tell us that before your assassination of Mr Hani, whether or not there was any violence against human life?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is quite possible that there were acts of violence here against human rights which are not given in the detail, Mr Chairman.  I, without going through each one and without knowing the full details, I am not qualified to comment on that.