Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

MR VISSER: Alright.  We have now dealt with the personnel, the Defence Force and the Air Force personnel let's now step on to the issue of the civilians.
	I suggest to you that from the fact of that bomb, the fact of the result of that bomb and the fact of your evidence here, that you weren't seriously concerned about death or injury to civilians were you?  You weren't seriously concerned.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: We aimed at military personnel.  We understood that there may be civilian casualties, but as I stated, or what I had read to you earlier from the statement of our President, we would not, for the sake of saving a few lives stop ourselves from fulfilling objectives in order to bring an end to that heinous apartheid state.

MR VISSER: I want to suggest to you that the callousness of this attack is underscored by inter alia the fact that you knew, in terms of your evidence, that there will be civilian casualties, you knew that.  So far am I right?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: The possibility existed ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No, no ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: We accepted the possibilities.

MR VISSER: That's not your evidence.  Your evidence wasn't the question of possibility.  It was put to you by my learned friend Mr Trengove ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: That it was inevitable.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes and we accepted that.

MR VISSER: Yes.  We also - also because it would appear that you used two ill-trained people to go and detonate what appears to be a very, very large explosive device, I think it was 40 kilograms wasn't it, packed into that car?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes it could be more.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And with a sophisticated trigger mechanism which worked per radio.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And I am suggesting to you it shows that you were unconcerned, unconcerned that things might go wrong, leaving aside the fact that it was a concealed bomb which strikes indiscriminately, I am putting to you now that you were unconcerned in your own mind as to what happens ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: That is not so.

MR VISSER: ...by sending two ill-trained persons to go and do this job.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: That is not so.  Those people were trained in how to use that mechanism.

MR VISSER: Can I refer you to volume 6, page 42.  Now let me explain to you, this is a volume which we received from my learned friend Mr Steenkamp, volume 6, page 40, I am referring to the cover page at page 40 and I will then refer to page 42.  This professes to be a special report on South African political violence and sabotage from 1 January to 31 December 1983, which incidentally covers the period of the Church Street bomb, and it declares that it's an incident details statistical analysis, tables and comment by one Michael Morris.  Michael Morris has this to say at page 42, the second paragraph.
"Most damning of all thus far is the fact that the effect and management of the 40 kilogram of high yield explosives used in the stolen Colt Gallant in Pretoria on 20 May was far beyond the technical trainings, skills or perceptions of hired gangsters who were paid R3 000 to use it.  ANC provided blast potentials, money and instructions and specified locale and timing".

MR TRENGOVE: I wonder if my learned friend could tell us who the author is and what the value of his hearsay opinion is.  The author that refers to these cadres as gangsters.

MR VISSER: Well is my learned friend objecting me - me asking the witness to give his commentary about it?

MR TRENGOVE: I am asking my learned friend to identify the author so that one knows whether one is speaking ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know ...(intervention)

MR TRENGOVE: ...of an expert or a political propagandist.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the capacity of Michael Morris or what he was or what his background is?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman we were - I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Chair - we were given this as part of bundle 6, volume 6.  It states here that it is printed and published by the Terrorism Research Centre and a post box in Cape Town is given.  My learned friend might know who this person is and what his standing is.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say Mr Trengove I don't know anything about the author but I think if Mr Ismail can comment on what he thinks about this paragraph we certainly ...(intervention)

MR TRENGOVE: On the basis that it comes from an unknown person at a post office box in Cape Town?

CHAIRPERSON: An unknown source, certainly it's not accepted as being expert evidence or whatever.

MR TRENGOVE: No certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage.

MR VISSER: That's the basis on which it's put Mr Chairman.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson perhaps we should start with page 40.  By virtue of the fact that it is printed and published by what is a so-called Terrorism Research Centre I would suggest that this document comes from a biased source. Terrorism, terrorists are terms used by people of the apartheid state.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the comment made by the author referring to the persons who set off the bombs as being hired gangsters?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: To suggest that people are gangsters without any evidence in that regard is a flagrant violation of their rights.  They were not gangsters.  They were prepared to fulfil an operation. They knew the target well.  They had reconnoitred it.  We had shown them how to use the equipment.  They were given that money in the event of their needing to get away, not as it is put here, paid to carry out an attack like that.  I would suggest that this is highly inflammatory propaganda material.

MR VISSER: If your criticism is against the use of the word gangster, how would you feel about convicted criminals, at page 44, referring to the same people?  At the bottom of the page Mr Chairman.
"Among the dead are two convicted criminals employed by ANC to do bombing for R3 000 fee, Freddy Shongwe and Ezekiel Maseko."

JUDGE PILLAY: What were they convicted of Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I am reading from what I have in front of me.

JUDGE PILLAY: I accept that, but is it then fair to ask comment?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman there are other references and I didn't want to go into this in detail. This is not really the crux of my cross-examination.  But I remember reading that they were convicted of motor car theft, or there was a suggestion of motor car theft, and that concerned the question of obtaining a white Colt Gallant.  There are - in your documentation there are statements made by certain people who gave the run-up to the event of the 20th of May and some of those people were asked either to remove engine block numbers and/or to obtain a stolen vehicle, and it is in one of those statements that I saw that.  I can't take it any further than that.
	But if it becomes an issue Mr Chairman I am sure that someone can find out whether they have previous convictions or not.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well perhaps you are more correct.  You've said it wasn't the crux of your question let's get on to the crux then.