Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, my next applicant is Joseph Bongi Nkosi Motshwene.  His application appears on page 275 of the bundle.  It is application AM3884/96.  Mr Chairman, he was here this morning, in the circumstances, can I request a short adjournment so that I try and ...

CHAIRPERSON: You can find him.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Motshwene is applying for amnesty for attempted murder and possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition.
	Mr Chairman, before you proceed, can I give you the applicant's identity number?  It is 711114 5387 08 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motshwene, what language would you prefer to use?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Zulu.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: (sworn states)

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Motshwene, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Sisulu Section in Tokoza is that correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: When did you join?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: In 1991.

MRS NHLAYISI: Who was your Commander?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Mr Commander was Chaka.

ADV GCABASHE: What are his full names?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I don't know his full names, we used to call him Chaka, that is all.

MRS NHLAYISI: There is an incident that happened in 1993, is that correct, where you were involved in a shooting of one Masiti Keswa, a school teacher in Macatizwe primary school.  Could you tell this Committee what happened on this particular day?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: We were coming from Radebe Section, the residents of Radebe were fighting with the hostel dwellers.  Our Commander, Chaka, requested us that if we were willing to go and assist there, we could do so.  That was in Radebe Section.
	We were from Radebe Section, on our way to Tokoza, we met with a group of people, the vigilante group.  They had their traditional weapons.  They were wearing a certain attire with red head bands and on their arms, they had some red bands.  They were taking the direction of Natalspruit and we met with these people.  They wanted to know which party did we belong to and we could see that they were undermining us.  We told them that we did not belong to anything, we were just human beings.
	They wanted to attack us with their traditional weapons, their knopkieries, we ran away.

MRS NHLAYISI: In your testimony, you were referring to we.  How many were you or who was in your company as you came from Radebe Section when you met this group of people?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It was myself and a friend of mine, the two of us.

MRS NHLAYISI: Then after they asked you as to which political party did you belong, what happened next?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: We told them that we did not belong to any political organisation, we were not members.   They tried to attack us with their weapons.  I had a pistol, I was armed with a pistol and then they tried to attack us.  I could see that I was in danger, like before.
	I decided to run away.  Others pursued us, and I drew my pistol.  I shot towards them, they were scattered around and others went to the school yard that was there in that vicinity.  As the others were pursuing us, they shot at us.  I shot at them.
	They were scattered around the place.  The others went over to the school yard.  I realised that they were not armed, they only had their knopkieries, I went to fetch the other comrades.

MRS NHLAYISI: You followed those that went into the school yard, is that what you are saying?  You said they got scattered and you realised that they were not armed with firearms, they only had knopkieries and then you decided to follow them, is that what you are saying?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: The pistol that you have mentioned, where did you get that?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I got it from our Commander, Chaka.

MRS NHLAYISI: So it wasn't your personal weapon as such, it was issued to you by the Commander for the defence of the community, is that correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, after this other group of people ran into the school yard and you followed them, what happened?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: When we got into the school yard, in the premises of the school, we met with two people.  There were people who were just walking by.  I stopped them, they did not stop, they did not stop, I shot again for the second time.

MRS NHLAYISI: Why did you do that when you met this two people in the school premises, and you just decided to order them to stop and shot towards them, what was the reason?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question?

MRS NHLAYISI: You are saying that you got into the school yard, you saw two people there and you ordered them to stop, they didn't stop and then you fired a shot towards them.  What was the reason for you firing towards the people that you saw in the school yard?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I thought these people were from that group.  I was not sure whether these people were with that other group.  I suspected them as the people who were coming from that group, because even the other people ran into the school yard.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you actually thought they were part of the group that ran into the school premises, is that correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: When you fired a shot towards these people, did it hit any of them?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: No one was shot at.

MRS NHLAYISI: So after you fired this shot, what happened next?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: These people ran away.  They ran into the classroom.

ADV GCABASHE: Which people ran away, the two passer by's who you had just shot at, or who exactly?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: The people that I had ordered to stop.

MRS NHLAYISI: After they ran into a classroom, what did you do, did you chase them?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, I chased them.  They got into a classroom and I also got into the class.  I was surprised to find out there were people inside that classroom, they were drinking.  They were not the people that we were fighting with.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you discovered that you directed a shot at wrong people actually when you stopped these two individuals outside and fired shots at them?  Is that correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Then what happened there, did you try to talk to them?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: They asked me what was happening.  As I was surprised and I could see that I was shooting at the wrong people, I told them that there was nothing wrong with them, but the problem was just outside.

MRS NHLAYISI: Then what happened?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I was just talking to them.  They wanted to know what was happening outside.  I told them that there were people who were fighting with us, outside.  As I was still talking with them, someone hit me with an object at the back of my head, and I fainted.
	I don't know what happened thereafter.  When I woke up, I was in hospital with police around me.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you were arrested for this particular incident?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Is it further correct that you were convicted for attempted murder and possession of unlicensed firearm, arising from this particular incident?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Am I further correct to say that you have already served your time as sentenced by the Criminal Court regarding this incident?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Motshwene, why are you now applying for amnesty relating to this particular incident?