Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ADV PRIOR: ... attend the hearings because of some problem with the State attorney.  His instructions were therefore not to appear and therefore Mr Baker would also not be appearing at these proceedings.  He regretted ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because we did in fact lose some time because of that, but thank you for placing that on record.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I represent three of the victims of the Chamberlain Road explosion.  One of my clients has raised a concern this morning and has asked me to put it down on record and to place it on record, when he arrived at the centre, there were a number of very heavily armed people who are the bodyguards or security personnel for some of the applicants.  These people were carrying heavy calibre firearms and weapons.  My client, and I were not here last week, we understand that there was some type of arrangement or agreement that was reached between the Commission and the applicants regarding protection and bodyguards and for the sake of my clients who were not here, we would like the Commission basically, if possible, to clear up what the position is with regards the use of firearms in and around the vicinity of the building.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mall.  I am aware that when this hearing proceeded, that certain arrangements were made.  We will take a look into the matter and keep in touch with you and the other applicants in this respect.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned yesterday, I mentioned that I at the start of the proceedings now, will make a ruling relating to the Section 29 proceedings.  Like the previous ruling we made, the full reasons will be contained in our decision in the matter at the end of the hearing, but the ruling after having considered the submissions, we arrived at the following unanimous ruling and that is as follows - it is ruled that the document marked Exhibit C which is a transcript of the proceedings of an enquiry held in terms of Section 29 of Act 34 of 1995, concerning the fifth applicant, that is Mr Robert McBride, which was held at Durban on the 21st of April 1997, is admissible as evidence in respect of the fifth applicant's application only and may accordingly be used for purposes of cross-examining the fifth applicant at this hearing.

ADV PRIOR: As the Chair pleases.

MR RICHARD: As the Chair pleases.

MR DEHAL: As the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr Chairperson, I would have Mr McBride now testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Just before we proceed, I just remind the people that these proceedings will be simultaneously translated and if you wish to benefit from the translation, please obtain one of these devices from the sound technician.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: (affirmed)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr McBride, may I show you A1, you have that on the left of you, that is the bundle A1.  If you would look at pages 103 to 112, do you confirm that that is your application for amnesty?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is my amnesty application.

MR DEHAL: Is it correct that in  categorising the matters, you deal firstly with the acts as contained in your trial record and the charges therein contained?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: I show you page 104 of bundle A1.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I have that.

MR DEHAL: Do you see that at the bottom under paragraph 9(a), you have (iv) and then on the next page, page 105, (c), (d), (e) and on the following page, 106, (f), (g) and (h), correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I have that.

MR DEHAL: Would those be acts for which, in regard to which you were not charged and not convicted, but acts that you are now talking freely of?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And then in paragraph 9(b) on page 106, continuing over onto page 107, is it correct that you deal with three incidents relative to the deaths resulting, sorry injuries and deaths resulting from the above and here you deal firstly with the Klein household, secondly with the Edendale aspect and thirdly with the Why Not bar operation, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride ...

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Dehal, just to avoid any confusion, what is the position about acts for which he was not charged or convicted, does he make application for that as well?

MR DEHAL: He does indeed in the interest of full disclosure.  Thank you Judge.  Mr McBride, is it correct that you have prepared a statement of your own, which you want to begin by reading out.  I show you this brief statement, Mr Chairperson, I have copies for all persons.  May I cause them to be distributed?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dehal.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, I hand this statement to you.  Perhaps before you begin reading it, would you mind if I just arrange for these copies to be handed over.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal, we can mark it Exhibit F.

MR DEHAL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairperson.  Thank you.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Sorry, we will just wait for everybody to have their copies.

MR DEHAL: I think everybody has their copies.  Mr McBride, you may begin reading your statement.  If I may just say to you, perhaps you should leave ...

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Dehal, could you just help me.  The indictment referred to in paragraph 9(a)(i), I don't recall having seen that, where would I find that?

MR DEHAL: Judge, thank you for pointing that out to me.  Unfortunately I didn't anticipate that as being a problem.  I will arrange for copies to be made of that indictment.   I think it is a good point, it will be necessary and wise for us all to have copies of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not contained in bundle A2?

MR DEHAL: May I just look Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There is an indictment on pages 1 through to 33, that is in the case of Mr McBride and one Antonio du Preez?

MR DEHAL: That appears to be so Mr Chairperson, and then what follows is the summary of substantial facts relating to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then there is a further indictment also on pages in the other volume, 1 to 63 in the case of S v ...

MR DEHAL: Antonio du Preez and Derrick McBride?

CHAIRPERSON: No,   No, Robert John McBride and Greta Margaret Apelgren.

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't follow.  I think that is the only indictment relating to Robert and Greta.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DEHAL: McBride and Apelgren, that would be pages 1 to page 63 and on bundle A2, under paragraph 3 of the index, you will see reference to the indictment relating to S v Antonio du Preez and Derrick McBride.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, that is my mistake.  It is pages 1 to 63?

MR DEHAL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the indictment.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, I confirm that that is the indictment.  Thank you.   Mr McBride, if I may take you to your statement, now marked Exhibit F, when reading the statement will you please pause wherever you wish to add anything in addition to the typed print and simply indicate that so that the parties here present would be able to mark that and record what you are saying verbally, thank you.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you read it Mr McBride, if you can just bear in mind the Interpreters please, that they've got to simultaneously interpret.