Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

ELIAS MBATHA: That I will disagree with, as to whether there was a person or not who was issuing instructions.  We happened to have acted the same way the same time.  There was no-one as such who was issuing or giving orders.  I used my discretion and so were the others.

MR LAX: Okay now, just a last aspect.  Where exactly did you pursue people to?  You personally.

ELIAS MBATHA: As I was shooting and running after them some people shouted behind, that is the IFP members, telling us we should stop.

MR LAX: So how far did you get while you were chasing them?  You personally.

ELIAS MBATHA: I will try here to give you an estimation of the distance.  You see as we left the ground they were running towards the upwards direction, towards the shacks.  That's when I turned, I returned, I went back.

MR LAX: So how far from the ground had you gone, approximately?

ELIAS MBATHA: I will say, I don't know but you see this very first road, this street outside, from there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the street with the traffic, not the car park, the street where the traffic drives, the main road outside?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, the main road there where the traffic passes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be about 100, 120 metres.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is what we have estimated yesterday.

MR LAX: One last absolute final aspect, and that is, these people were running away, you were no longer in any danger, why did you chase them and carry on shooting?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, they were running, but because we were highly infuriated on them attacking us, we then kept following and running after them and shooting.  It was all based on the anger we had, this deep-rooted anger.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi has indicated she would like to ask a question.  Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Whilst you were shooting at the people at the stadium, how far was Mr Sithole away from you?  Or did you see Mr Sithole during that shooting?

ELIAS MBATHA: He was quite a distance from me.  It could be from here towards the door.

CHAIRPERSON: About 30 paces.

ADV SIGODI: And you heard Mr Ndlovu's evidence that he saw a big flame, green flame, twice, which was being shot from Mr Sithole's firearm.  Did you see that?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I agree with him, I saw that.

ADV SIGODI: What did you think it was?  Was it an AK-47 or was it something else?

ELIAS MBATHA: Those were, that was the AK-47 ammunition.

ADV SIGODI: Then one final aspect.  Mr Sithole mentioned that there was going to be a meeting KwaZulu Natal, there was going to be busses.  Do you know anything about that as an IFP member?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes I do remember, there was going to be a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, something's come to mind that I'd just like to ask finally.  Why were you in possession of an unlicensed firearm?

ELIAS MBATHA: I had it for the purpose of defence, self-defence as that was a state of war.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you had that firearm?

ELIAS MBATHA: It was not too long ago, I think about six months.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get it from?

ELIAS MBATHA: It was my uncle's.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht do you have any questions arising from the questions put by the Panel?

MR DRAHT: No question Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you no.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbatha, that concludes your testimony.  I think we'll now take the lunch adjournment.  We'll take the lunch adjournment until two o'clock.

ELIAS MBATHA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MPONGOSI: AM NO: 7686/97

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Draht?  Is this Mr Mpongosi.

MR DRAHT: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpongosi do you have any objection to taking the oath?  Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR MPONGOSI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Draht?

MR DRAHT: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mpongosi you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

MR DRAHT: For what acts are you applying for amnesty for?

MR MPONGOSI: I'm seeking amnesty pertaining to the incident at Zevenfontein.

MR DRAHT: And any specific acts?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: What acts?

MR MPONGOSI: This relates to the injuries of ANC people at Zevenfontein, as well as being in possession of illegal firearm and ammunitions, and murder, attempted murder as well.

MR DRAHT: Were you at the time of the incident a member of any political party?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Which party?

MR MPONGOSI: The IFP.

MR DRAHT: What was your position in the party?

MR MPONGOSI: I was just a follower.

MR DRAHT: What did you plead when you were tried in Court?

MR MPONGOSI: I pleaded not guilty.

MR DRAHT: Did you tell the truth in Court?

MR MPONGOSI: No, I told lies.

MR DRAHT: Are you going to tell the truth today?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes, I will tell the truth today.

MR DRAHT: Chairperson if I can refer the Committee to page 90 of the bundle.  Mr Mpongosi, if you look at page 90 of the bundle, at the bottom I think, is that your signature?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: This statement was dated May 1997 and was taken in Zonderwater Prison.

MR MPONGOSI: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mpongosi can you read or write?

MR MPONGOSI: No I cannot.  I just can write my name, not to read and write.

MR DRAHT: Can you remember who took this statement from you?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Who took it?

MR MPONGOSI: It was taken by this legal counsel, the one on the other side of yourself, I've forgotten his name, as well as Msizi.

MR DRAHT: Is that Mr Claassen?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Did they read your statement back to you before you signed it?

MR MPONGOSI: No, they just came and I signed and they took it along.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mpongosi I'm going to read part of your statement to you.  It was on page 86, paragraph 9(4).  It's written here
"...It was in Zevenfontein.  The ANC and IFP were fighting."
Is that correct?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Then you went on stated
"...The ANC attacked our houses."
Is that correct?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Is it to correct to state that the ANC attacked your houses?

MR MPONGOSI: I said they were attacking our houses because they were on their way to attack us and we decided to meet them halfway to stop them from reaching our children and wives.  To stop them from reaching our houses.

MR DRAHT: You also said
"...We did not want to fight with them but they came to our houses to attack us.  We only defended ourselves.  The ANC did not come to talk, they wanted to wage a war."

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Now Mr Mpongosi, I'm going to show another statement to you, it's page 92 of the bundle, this statement is dated 12th December 1996.  It was, it seems as if it was made before the other statement.

MR LAX: I think if I could just perhaps put on record the situation which we learnt during the lunch hour.

MS LOCKHAT: Yes Chairperson I've just asked Sannie van Deven to get all the correspondence together so that we could actually place that on record.