Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Very well Chairperson, yes, he said to me that a similar incident had taken place, an incident similar to that of Mr Lubowski had taken place with Mr Chiavelli, the former millionaire.  He said it was a joint project of National Intelligence and Military Intelligence, in which he had also been involved to break Mr Chiavelli financially and that Douw Steyn from Auto & General, who was involved with the ANC, would be next on the list.  All of this took place on that particular evening, when we had the cocaine party.
	Then upon various subsequent occasions, as we worked together on a daily basis, I asked him about it, I asked him about this whole matter, because it puzzled me, the man would have been a priceless asset if he was an informer, there wasn't anybody more suitable.  If one could recruit someone in SWAPO and get such a person to work with the South African government, then this was a priceless asset.  Why did we kill him, why did somebody kill him at least?  He told me upon many occasions when he was sober, while we were working and conducting coordinations, he told me numerous times the man was framed.
	They had the capacity to create bank records for you, they had the capacity to do anything, nothing was impossible for them.

MR COETZEE: Very well, Mr Barnard.  Is that the sum total of your knowledge regarding Anton Lubowski?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is my involvement.  I am convinced to this very day, that the South African Security Police killed Anton Lubowski.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

MR COETZEE: I see that it is five minutes before the tea adjournment and I don't want to go into the next situation, but could you just explain to me, your motor vehicle with which you were in South-West Africa stood at the airport during the shooting of Adv Lubowski.  Could you just explain how this came to be that your vehicle was there?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes Chairperson.   I was busy with my activities in South-West Africa and then after the Lubowski incident, I was tasked to kill Daniel Tjongarero, I would be the person to kill him.
	I will testify about this when we come to the cross-border involvement.  Just to give you a preamble to the events, at a certain stage Kobus le Roux came to me and he said that Tjongarero was no longer the target, and that it had changed to Hidipo Hamutenya and that I had to travel back to Pretoria, and come and speak to him there, and then I would have to be redeployed to South-West Africa.
	What took place then was that I flew over here, and that I came to see him and the thing boiled over into a number of weeks.  I left my vehicle at the airport there and then the thing with Slang van Zyl arose to send me on the first Omar excursion in July, and I did so.  After I spoke to Kobus le Roux, I said "listen, how does this thing with Hamutenya look" and he said that they were waiting for certain detailed information still.
	I told him that there was something else that I was going to be involved in and he assured me that I could continue, but that I should remain in contact, which I did.  I came over here and then for a second time again, and then it happened that Anton Lubowski was shot in South-West Africa.  There was no way that I would return.  I arranged with Kobus le Roux for the vehicle to be fetched there and brought back to South  Africa.  It stood on the airport for months, however.

MR COETZEE: If at this stage we can proceed to the recruitment of Donald Aitchison, Chairperson, I can see that it is a few minutes before tea time, I don't want to begin with another aspect and then just before we get going, be interrupted, is it possible that this could be a suitable time for the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, we will take a 20 minute tea adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: (s.u.o.)

MR COETZEE: (Cont)    Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Just before we get to the recruitment of Aitchison, we heard from various witnesses about the security that was upheld concerning conscious and unconscious members and that there were also a very strong need to know basis, or need to know nothing basis, that these people were dealt with in that way.  If you can just possibly place in context, what was your knowledge with regards to other members in the CCB and how it happened that you got to know from Staal Burger, Chap Maree, you knew about Calla Botha's involvement and then also Slang's involvement.  If you can just give us a bit of background how you got to know about this.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I had constant contact with Calla Botha as I have already said, we exercised together, we participated in sport at the rugby club and in discussions with him and also things that I observed, he had a pager just like me, he bought the same car at more or less the same time, in the same price range, and the way in which he acted, I think we both realised at the same time, we were running around the Florida Lake and we found out then that we were working for the same organisation, and through discussions with Mr Botha it came out that they were active as a cell and he told me about Chappie Maree's involvement and Mr Staal Burger's involvement, as well as Slang van Zyl.
	At a later stage, as I have already said, I met Slang van Zyl, I already knew where he was working by means of his now ex-wife, or the wife he had then.   I knew her because she was a Prosecutor, while I was a Detective, and that is how I met Slang van Zyl.  It was against all the rules, but that is how we did it, we were all conscious members.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Barnard, we had evidence that there were regular meetings at the Sheep-for-Sale plot and, although meetings with Verster and Burger were just with one operative at a time, they would see each other at this "Skape te Koop" place, do you know anything about that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not know anything about that, Mr Chairperson.  I just know about how we worked on grassroots level, how we got to know people.  Like I said Mr van Zyl, Mr Botha, how we had contact with each other.  It was not encouraged, and we shouldn't have done it, but I cannot know a person for a long time and not talk about it.   We were not supposed to discuss our projects with each other, which we did.  Mr Chappie Maree, Wouter Basson and Mr Staal Burger, I never had contact with them, within the organisation and during that time and even before that, in 1988, I saw Chappie Maree at a social level, at a party of a hotel owner in the East Rand, I saw him there once.  He did not know where I was working and he did not know where I was working, so we never discussed matters like that.
	I had no contact at all with anybody else but Slang van Zyl and Calla Botha.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, just to add to the question that was just asked by the Chairperson.  Did you attend regular meetings of the CCB where there were certain discussions concerning projects and the ways in which you had to act?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, no, the meetings that I attended were co-ordinating meetings with Lafras Luitingh, I was not involved in any other meetings.

MR COETZEE: Very well.  You have now stated that you did not act according to the rules concerning the discussion of projects and what you were involved in.
	Did you discuss certain projects with members?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I did.

MR COETZEE: For example you mentioned that you spoke to Slang van Zyl, did he talk to you about, concerning the Athlone bomb?