Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR BERGER: And this ANC guard emptied an entire ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Security guard.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?

MR STEPHENS: You said security guard - ja, you said it - okay, ANC guard.

MR BERGER: I said "this ANC guard".

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Emptied an entire magazine on the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: No I didn't say that, I said that he shot on automatic and I wasn't sure if he had emptied - if he had actually finished the whole round.  I just took it for granted because I didn't think this he's gonna change the magazine if it wasn't empty.  So I take it that he did finish it.

MR BERGER: For how long did he shoot?

MR STEPHENS: 10/15 seconds, I'm not sure, but ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: Well I won't keep you to that, in your evidence in the inquest you said "a good 15 to 20 seconds".  You said he fired 7 to 10 bursts, a good 15 to 20 seconds before he released, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Then he re-loaded and then he started firing on single shots?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And the policeman was still standing next to him doing nothing?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked to me, yes.

MR BERGER: Again Mr Stephens, your evidence on this stands alone.  No-one else describes the shooting in this way, but it's what you saw.

MR STEPHENS: That I did see, yes, and I was right there.

MR BERGER: Who else fired shots at the marchers, you've mentioned the ANC guard with the AK47, who else fired shots?

MR STEPHENS: And there was a guy with a green uniform - a green - it looked like a safari-suite, but it was like a matching top and pants.

MR BERGER: Green?

MR STEPHENS: Green.

MR BERGER: And besides the man in green, who else fired shots at the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Well I only saw one other person that I can recall.

MR BERGER: Who?

MR STEPHENS: It was another one of the guys that was standing around there, that I took as part of the ANC ...(indistinct), round - that was hovering around, but I can't say he was part of them or wasn't, but that was the only other person.  So there were basically three people that I saw shoot - actually fire, but my main concentration was on the guard that was shooting as well as the guy that ran across the road because he was quite - it was quite explicit where he was actually coming from.  And at that stage I was outside the shop as well, and that's why I saw him, and that's when I ran back inside again.

MR BERGER: Again, your evidence about the man in green absolutely stands alone.  No-one else talks about this man, no Policeman, no ANC guard.

MR STEPHENS: Well all I can tell you is I definitely saw him, and I'm under oath, and I swear to God, I saw him.  I saw him shoot, I was there, I saw it.  Whether nobody else saw it, it's the same as other things that I never saw, whether other people didn't see it as well, I don't know.  But I saw it.

MR BERGER: Now ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: And I've no reason to lie either.  In fact it would be in my better interest not to be here.

MR BERGER: Well you've been subpoenaed haven't you?

MR STEPHENS: Only after I gave a statement to the Police, but I actually didn't want to let it come to this.  So I would definitely not make up things, I can assure you of that.

MR BERGER: The other man who was shooting, now not the man in green and not the ANC guard with the AK47, where was he shooting from?

MR STEPHENS: He was standing next to the pillar on the corner there.

MR BERGER: Same pillar where the policeman and the ANC guard was?

MR STEPHENS: More to the right.

MR BERGER: More to your right?

MR STEPHENS: More to their right.

MR BERGER: And yours?

MR STEPHENS: And mine, correct.

MR BERGER: Now these two, the man on the right and the man in green, they only started shooting at a time when the AK47 was being fired on single fire, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That I could recall, yes.  That's the only time I noticed them because if you can imagine this assault rifle shooting on automatic, I think any other little handgun, you basically not even gonna hear it, so they could have been shooting before that, but at the time I didn't see it, because I only heard the AK basically, or the assault rifle.  So they might have been shooting before, but I never heard them at that stage.

MR BERGER: Isn't it your evidence, or wasn't it your evidence that the other ANC members only came out and started firing after the man with the AK47 was shooting on single-fire?

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed, yes.

MR BERGER: And so at the time when he was shooting on automatic, that 15 to 20 second period, there was no-one else at that corner firing shots?

MR STEPHENS: I didn't say ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: In fact there no-one else at that corner.

MR STEPHENS: I said that there was nobody else that I noticed shooting.  So in other words, according to my statement, they wouldn't be shooting because I never noticed it.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said at page 2536, Mr Stephens, line 11
"When his magazine was finished, he then re-loaded and started shooting on single-fire.  Other ANC members afterwards," this is now after he was shooting on single-fire, "with 9mm came out and also started firing, okay, and also started firing on the crowd, and that is what happened."

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed, yes.

MR BERGER: Then I asked you the question

MR BERGER: "So the other ANC members, the man in the green safari-suite, the other one with the 9mm who fired, they only came out from the entrance and started firing after this man with the AK47 was already shooting on single-fire, correct?

WITNESS: That's what it looks there - and that is not correct, because when he started firing, that is when everybody came out, but I only noticed the guy that fired with the green uniform afterwards."

MR BERGER: 		"In other words when he was shooting on single-shot?

WITNESS:  I do not know if he was there before because what was happening, when he was shooting on single-shot other people was still coming out as well.  I do not know if they were inside the building, they had come down, or whatever, but they came out afterwards."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.  So in other words, if you read over here
"That is not correct, because when he started firing, in other words on automatic, that is when everybody came out, but I only noticed that the guy had fired with the green uniform afterwards."
	So in other words when he started shooting on automatic the other guys came running out, and I noticed a couple of them standing there, whether it was all of them -but guys - obviously they came to see what was going on, that the guy was shooting on automatic.  And I only noticed them shooting when he put it on single-shot, and the reason for that is, it took a couple of seconds to change the magazine and it probably drew my attention to the fact that I heard other shots because now the assault rifle had stopped firing.

MR BERGER: Please turn to page 2538 Mr Stephens, line 17, this is not when you're trying to get the attention of the Policeman
"You wanted to get his attention so that he could stop this man from now shooting on single-fire?"
this the man with the AK47.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Your answer
"That is right, because by then the other guards had not started firing yet."

MR STEPHENS: Ja, that I noticed.  According to me they hadn't started firing yet, maybe they had have, I don't know.  But at that stage I did not see them shooting, or recall them shooting.

MR BERGER: See Mr Stephens your evidence is quite clear, the 15 to 20 second burst with the AK47 was fired directly into this crowd by the ANC guard standing alone on the corner with a Policeman.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: It's only after that the he gets joined by ANC guards from the entrance of Shell House.

MR STEPHENS: No I didn't say that.