Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: Well, what made you so confident that she was going to divulge information, that could assist the Middelburg Security Branch and assist the Pietermaritzburg Security Branch when your information was that she was not interested in turning, and she was in fact defiant and she was proud of the events that she had described?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Mr Chairperson, you asked me a question just before that, why did I go with and I answered you, and I think that you are using that point, to jump to another one, which is a bit far from the initial one.  Could you just indicate what you are really asking.

ADV PRIOR: All right, let me repeat that.  You said you went along, because you also had informers in Swaziland and you wanted to find out about weapon storage places and so forth?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: You hardly spoke to her in Onverwacht and you questioned her in Pietermaritzburg, the next day?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And at that stage, a decision had already been taken to eliminate her, but you questioned her in the hope that she may have given you some information?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It was still my opinion to recruit her.

ADV PRIOR: Tell us what information did she give you that was of assistance to your branch or your office?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: In my operational area, she did not divulge any information that had specifically to do with the Midlands.

ADV PRIOR: Did she give you any information that impacted on the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I was not present at that interrogation.

ADV PRIOR: Did you find out later whether she maybe, just before she was murdered, divulged something of importance to Eastern Transvaal?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Chairperson, no.  I do not know.

ADV PRIOR: But you would have shared that information amongst your colleagues?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It would be shared at the end, but at that stage, no.  I wasn't there, or I wasn't constantly present on the farm.

ADV PRIOR: Colonel we understood that evidence was shared, or information was shared between the offices and the various branches.

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: Can we accept that nothing stays in your mind, that Eastern Transvaal mentioned to you that she had divulged?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I cannot remember.

ADV PRIOR: And did Botha say at Pietermaritzburg, whether she had now given any new information?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Not as far as I know.  He discussed with Steyn more so than with me.

ADV PRIOR: Colonel Forster, were you ever present when Mr Botha interrogated Portia Ndwandwe?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, at times I was present.

ADV PRIOR: And when Wasserman was with her, and or Du Preez, were you present at any of those stages?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I cannot remember, no.

ADV PRIOR: You say she wasn't assaulted at any stage in your presence?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That I can say with certainty.

ADV PRIOR: Was that because she was a woman or for any other reason?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Chairperson, we were in the process to recruit an informant, to recruit a person and we try to act in the most humane manner and I can say with certainty that she was not assaulted.

ADV PRIOR: We heard from Mr Botha if I remember correctly, and I obviously speak under correction, that part of the recruitment process was to put pressure, and possibly to intimidate through threats of assault or whatever?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, one can apply pressure, but she was never assaulted.

ADV PRIOR: I am asking you again, was it because she was a woman?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It could possibly be the case but according to myself, it was not necessary to assault her.  There was enough pressure on her, according to myself, that if she wanted to cooperate as an informant, she would have, and it was not necessary to assault her.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand you don't know what information was got from her?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Mr Chairperson, the information that was received from her, was conveyed to me by Botha.  From her directly, I did not receive information that applied for my in my area or district.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Botha tell you?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: At times, I cannot exactly remember when.  If it was at Onverwacht or after we arrived at the farm, but at times, he did convey certain information to me.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Forster, was there any understanding between yourself and Colonel Taylor, that what you were doing on that farm, was to be kept amongst yourselves?  In other words, you have told us that Deon Cele was a similar incident and he was exhumed on the very same farm, is that correct?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: I don't want to go into that, because that is the subject of another application.

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, that is another application.

ADV PRIOR: But we have that event and Ndwandwe's execution and disposal on the same farm.

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any understanding among you and Colonel Taylor, given the fact that he was in charge of the Durban office and you of the Maritzburg office, that things would remain amongst yourselves, and not go any further?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Or did you report for example to a higher authority?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No.

ADV PRIOR: And why was that agreement necessary?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It was an illegal act and to report back at a higher level, you would incriminate someone if they would agree or if they did not agree with it, then you had to sort out your own problems.

ADV PRIOR: I should imagine that by that stage, and by all accounts, you had a long career with the police?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: Were you not concerned what may happen if you were discovered, and in fact if you were compromised in the Swaziland operation to abduct Portia Ndwandwe?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, it was in the back of my mind.

ADV PRIOR: Did you discuss that with General Steyn or with any of the other people, were there any guarantees or any assurances of what could happen or what would happen if you were discovered?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Various things could have gone wrong.  It was as far as I can remember, before we left, this matter was brought to our attention.  You can call it a contingency plan if you want to put it that way, but we were of the opinion that the chances would be good that this operation would be a success.
	Depending on what would happen or could have happened, or depending on what would happen, would then indicate what our reaction would be.

ADV PRIOR: I gain the impression from what I have heard from the other applicants and yourself, that you moved fairly freely and unrestrictedly in Swaziland, or did you fear interference from the Swazi police?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: You are never safe in another country.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I do understand that, but at that stage you went in, or did you liaise with them, or what was the position?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, I did not personally liaise with them, or that any of the group that are applying for this, did.

ADV PRIOR: So there were possibilities, contingency plans were discussed in the event of those possibilities, but the group was confident that it would be a success?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR NGUBANE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR VISSER: None, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER