Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: From what I know of the ANC, had I done something that was not in line with the ANC, I would have been called to a hearing where I would have to explain my case.  Thereafter a decision would be made as to the legitimacy of what I had done.  I believed that the ANC would indeed call me and hear my side of the story as to why I had carried out such an act, and it would be up to them to make an appropriate decision.

CHAIRPERSON: After you escaped, after the robbery, did you go to anybody to report what had happened?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: This took place on a Monday, we went to eSikhaweni and realised that Mzwake Shandu was missing.  We tried to find out what had happened to him.  Later on in that day, we learnt that someone had been arrested in the vicinity of that crime.  We heard that that person had been found in possession of a firearm.  I also looked for him around at (indistinct), such that ...

MR LAX: Just answer the question, it is really simple.  Did you report it to anyone or didn't you, just a simple yes or no is good enough.  You don't have to relate a long history to us.

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, because I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were in kwaMashu already?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I arrived at kwaMashu at night.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you, when were you arrested?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: On the very early hours of the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived at kwaMashu, why don't you go and report to your superiors, "look, this is what happened, and indeed we believe that one of our men was arrested"?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I arrived very late at kwaMashu.  I think when we arrived in kwaMashu, it was after twelve midnight and after a short while, the police arrived.  There was no other person that I could contact at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had to survive till the next day, who would you have contacted?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I would have written Papani and informed him of our mission to Empangeni where one of us had been arrested.

MR LAX: Can I just take you back, you still haven't given a clear answer to the question I asked you previously which was why did you put in this form here, paragraph 11(a) and (b) that the approval for this mission came from the Mkababa affiliated the ANC, and in particular Lindani Nteani when you had already told us that Nteani had no knowledge of this operation at all?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Can you please repeat that question, I was still paging through?

MR LAX: No problem.   Why have you written in  your form here, paragraph 11(a) and (b) which paragraphs deal with the question of the approval for you actions, and why have you told in this form that Lindani Nteani gave the approval, when in fact you have already told us that he had no knowledge of this operation?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Lindani did not know anything about the operation, however, he is the person who had requested us to assist him.  I would not have participated in any robbery, had he not made that request.

MR LAX: But he didn't ask you to go and rob somewhere, he asked you for firearms?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, he had made that request, however, we had discussed with him if there were any other areas or places that sold firearms, where this could be bought from.

MR LAX: So this is not true, what is in your form here, he didn't authorise this operation?  He didn't grant you the approval to go and rob the  Avocas  Wholesalers, he also didn't grant you the approval to kill Steyn?  Isn't that so?  He didn't even know about it?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Indeed Lindani did not know that we were going to conduct a robbery, he knew that we were going to obtain money in any way.  He also did not know about the plan to kill Mr Steyn.  He just requested assistance in terms of getting firearms or money to buy firearms.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Panday, we have interrupted your cross-examination.

MR PANDAY: No, no problem, Mr Chair.   May I continue?  Mr Mpanza, the Empangeni area, would they not have had an SDU unit there?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I didn't get that information from Tulani.

MR PANDAY: In the Empangeni area, who was in charge of the Empangeni area, which ANC official?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: It was Tulani Shabalala.

MR PANDAY: What was Tulani Shabalala's role?  What rank did he hold?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: He was the Chairperson, and as a trained person he was also a leader in the Security Branch, the ANC security in Empangeni.

MR PANDAY: Now, as a trained person and leader of the ANC Security Branch, couldn't he go to the regional office for assistance?

MR LAX: Sorry, can we just correct you?  There is no such thing as the ANC Security Branch.

MR PANDAY: No, I understand that, but I am just going through the evidence that the applicant is giving.  I am aware of that, Mr Chairman.
	Where is the regional office for the ANC, in that time, where was the regional office?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: They had their own office in Empangeni, the ANC office, and there was another office that was responsible for the whole province, in Durban.

MR PANDAY: Now, that office was in Durban?  Now, wouldn't it have been more appropriate for Mr Shabalala to go to the regional office for assistance, than to come to you?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: The ANC office, Mamande, is dealing with political issues, they are not involved in any things like that.  It was difficult for them to go to the ANC office and tell them about the mission.
	There was an MK office where he could have discussed this with the MK cadres.  He knew how to find those cadres, as a person who was trained, he decided to work with me.

MR PANDAY: The office for the MK cadres, where was the office for the MK cadres?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Even here in Durban, there was an office.

MR PANDAY: Now, wouldn't Mr Shabalala have gone there, than come here?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Because of the fact that he had so much in his hands, and he decided to ask me for assistance, as a person who was from exile and he put his trust in me.  As a cadre, if you have attended the Commanders' course, you were allowed to take an initiative as long as you are going to stand for that.

MR PANDAY: Now, Mr Mpanza, based on your evidence, would it be correct for us to assume that the ANC would have done nothing or would have known nothing about its supporters being attacked by IFP and Steyn, because you all did not relay any information?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I cannot say that, all the operations that were taking place, were reported to the ANC.  IFP, there would be a conflict between the ANC and the IFP, and we wouldn't go there to the office and tell them that we have attacked the IFP members.  We could only report if there was a problem, for instance in a situation whereby some ANC comrades are arrested, then we go to the ANC and tell them about that.

MR PANDAY: So you are saying in fact to us that the MK cadres did want they wanted, there was no control.  If you thought there was a problem, you handled the problem and  that was dismissed?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, I am not trying to say that.   It used to happen sometimes that you would see yourself having to take an initiative.  You would try by all means to solve the problem, and submit the reports thereafter, only if it is necessary.

MR PANDAY: Did you submit any reports when you first heard the complaint about the problem in Empangeni?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I was arrested after the incident, therefore I couldn't do it.

MR PANDAY: No, no, I am not talking about the incident.  When Shabalala came from Empangeni and told you there are problems with Steyn and the IFP, did you submit any reports to the ANC explaining the problems?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No.

MR PANDAY: Right.  In Mkababa, Lindani was  a Youth League Chairman, isn't there a Head Office in Mkababa, for the Youth League to report to?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Lindani was coming from that office.  He is one of the people who were working there.