Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: You then go on to say,
  "I drank alcohol excessively over the weekend and on Mondaythe 24th as well as on the 25th of February".

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Is that true?

ROLAND PETROS: That is true.

<UNKNOWN>: So you weren't hunting this man, you were drinkingalcohol to excess on those days.

ROLAND PETROS: No. No, I was not abusing alcohol I used alcoholfor my nerves.

<UNKNOWN>: "You said I drank alcohol excessively",do you remember saying that?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes but I can't remember exactly how muchbut I used alcohol to stabilise myself because I was looking fora person to kill him and it was him or me and that was the reasonwhy I used alcohol.

<UNKNOWN>: Because you went on to say,
  "After 4pm on the 25th of February I was transported toKroonstad town in a motor vehicle driven by Daniel Hankan(?) toascertain the fares payable and the times at which taxis wouldbe available from Kroonstad to Ennerdale".
do you remember saying that?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: So you went there to find out about catchinga taxi to Ennerdale.
  "This was done at the behest of my uncle Dennis Bloem whois accused no.1 of this matter".

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: And then you say, you went on to say that,
  "After you alighted from the taxi you saw deceased".

ROLAND PETROS: Not that I can recall, after I got out ofthe taxi?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

ROLAND PETROS: From which taxi is this now?

<UNKNOWN>: Sorry, sorry, not taxi the vehicle, after yougot out the vehicle.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And Dennis Victor Bloem also made a statementdidn't he?

ROLAND PETROS: I am listening, yes.

<UNKNOWN>: He told you to go home on the afternoon ofthe 25th of February.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And was very cross with you because you hadspent the money he had given you on drink.  Do you remember that?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And he then sent you off to the taxi rank tofind out how much it cost to send you home.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And that's what you were doing at the taxirank.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros you will remember from the beginningI told you that today is the day when you should play open cards?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Where I read you documents pertaining to theprevious file and where at the time you did not tell the truth,what you said was not the truth, and if you still feel that whatyou said it was not the truth, that means you must now say soand say what I said previously was not the truth, today the truthis this, do you understand that?

ROLAND PETROS: That which the Judge read now was a statementwhich I made in the past which - that was not the truth, thatwhich the Judge has just read.  That was all fabrication.  Whatactually happened was that on that day we went out looking forthis man to kill him.  There were no taxis, we were not lookingfor taxis and trying to get me onto a taxi or anything like that. There is no question of me taking a taxi to Ennerdale, we simplywent there on that day to kill him.  So that statement which hadbeen read out was a total fabrication.

<UNKNOWN>: That was the statement you made when you changedyour plea and pleaded guilty and said to us here today that youwanted to be entirely honest and truthful with the State and thatstatement was confirmed by your uncle.  Are you now saying youwere lying when you said you wanted to be honest and truthfulwith the State in your evidence today?

ROLAND PETROS: The State itself wasn't honest with me sohow can I be honest with the State?

<UNKNOWN>: Anyway my question, the question I am askingyou is that what you said in the statement to the Court was thatthe truth, that's what I am asking you, the version relating tothe taxi rank, that is what I am asking you?

ROLAND PETROS: That is not the truth.

<UNKNOWN>: Tell me Mr Petros I don't know this place andcertainly members of the committee don't know this place, thisThree Million gang what is it, or what was it?

ROLAND PETROS: The Three Million gang was a group of membersof the community who terrorised the community.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you perhaps know why they were called ThreeMillion?

ROLAND PETROS: No I don't, I don't know why they were calledthe Three Million Gang.

<UNKNOWN>: And you told us that you used time and againto come and visit Kroonstad, although you did not live here, whatwas the political situation like here in Kroonstad during thattime?

ROLAND PETROS: It was very tense, the political situationwas extremely tense.  Too many things happened.  The situationwas really quite disorderly.

<UNKNOWN>: From your evidence I would imagine that therewas in fact a branch of the ANC Youth League in this area?

ROLAND PETROS: In which area?

<UNKNOWN>: In this area, Maokeng or Kroonstad area?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: And did the Youth function freely without anyproblems?

ROLAND PETROS: No.

<UNKNOWN>: No what, did it have problems?  What sort ofproblems did the ANC Youth League have?

ROLAND PETROS: There were always problems with the Three MillionGang.  We could never march in peace or anything like that becausewherever the Youth met and gathered the Three Million Gang wasalso present to harass us and to terrorise us and to fight withus.  There was never any peace in the whole of Maokeng.

<UNKNOWN>: Just for the record tell us a little bit forabout this SDU, what was it?

ROLAND PETROS: The SDU was the self-defence unit of the YouthLeague.  I think it had three different branches and it had threedifferent names, I can't remember exactly, I think one was Slovosomething, the SDU was a body formed by the Youth League to protectand defend society.

<UNKNOWN>: Was it an affiliate of the ANC Youth League?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes it was affiliated with the Youth Leaguebecause some of the members of the Youth League were also membersof the self-defence unit.

<UNKNOWN>: Well you said that the deceased had killeda number of people, I don't know you said something like 140 orI misheard.

ROLAND PETROS: 102 that's what I said.

<UNKNOWN>: Well  102 is a big number, I am not goingto ask  you  to  enumerate 102 names we would sit here the wholeafternoon but can you mention a few names if you still remember?  Or let me put it to you this way among the people killed werethere people that you considered as leaders?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes some of these people I did regard as leadersand exemplary residents of the community.

<UNKNOWN>: Just mention a few names of the people whowere killed, who you think were killed by this gang and who youregarded as leaders in this area.

ROLAND PETROS: No I can't remember any of the names.

<UNKNOWN>: You don't remember the names?

ROLAND PETROS: No.

<UNKNOWN>: And what do you mean by saying that there wasnobody to defend you, can you just elaborate on that?

ROLAND PETROS: We often went to the South African Police andpleaded with them to help us to solve this problem, the problemof the gang and the more we went to them to ask for help the worsethings became.

<UNKNOWN>: You were asked by Advocate ...(indistinct)to whether you thought the killing of the deceased was justifiedand your answer was - well do you remember what your answer was?

ROLAND PETROS: I said no, it was not justified because I didnot want to take the law into my own hands and because I haverespect for human life.

<UNKNOWN>: Was it necessary to kill him?

ROLAND PETROS: It wasn't necessary to kill him but if theSouth African Police had done their job properly it would neverhave been necessary.