Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We were not guerilla trained people if you want to know that.  We don't train to go and make bombs or something like that, no.  But on reading, yes, they ask us - you know like ANC we just - sometimes we did discuss that there must be a new Government, we must be equal but not deep politics like going to go out and murder someone.  Never, we never discussed something like that.

MR MADASA: Do you know if, amongst the deceased, anyone of them was trained MK as well?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Trained?  No.

MR MADASA: On the 10th October 1997, I'm referring now to the bundle on page 255, 254 I'm sorry, 254 - you made a statement.  If you could look at the statement?  Look at paragraph 4 on page 254.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, I've got it.

MR MADASA: Can you explain that paragraph about training or non-training of yourself and the deceased, whether you spoke about politics?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, yes, I say here that I'm trained.

MR MADASA: You say you were trained?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes that is what I say there.

MR MADASA: And then the deceased?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.  They do not get involved into  politics.

MR MADASA: What do you mean by that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That they were not involved in politics.

MR MADASA: In what way?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They didn't go out to kill people because of politics and we didn't plant bombs or anything like that.

MR MADASA: Okay, let me put it this way.  What were you involved in?  You have told us what you were not involved in, you were not involved in murder and killing people.  What were you involved in?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: In Zone 13 we had to protect the ANC in Sebokeng because at that stage there was a lot of attacks of Inkatha on these people and that is what the whole operation was about.

MR MADASA: Were you involved in gun smuggling?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I would not say directly smuggling but we did have weapons available.

MR MADASA: Were you involved in distribution or buying of guns?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Weapons were bought yes.

MR MADASA: Where.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: In Sebokeng.

MR MADASA: From whom?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Different people, they were never the same.

MR MADASA: What quantity of weapons, did you buy a lot of weapons?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, single ones.

MR MADASA: What for?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was not used, it was the weapons that we handed over to the police.  It was the weapons that we bought.

MR MADASA: You bought weapons and supplied the police?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.  We did not provide the police with weapons, whenever you hand in a weapon we would get remuneration for that and that is why we did it.

MR MADASA: Did you get those weapons from the ANC or IFP?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: The most of the weapons we got from the IFP.

MR MADASA: What kind of weapons?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: 765, small shotguns, there were AK's as well.

MR MADASA: In doing so, were you disarming the IFP?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.  Single people who went into a certain neighbourhood and caused trouble, then the ANC youth would then catch that person and take his weapon from him and that is how we got these weapons.

MR MADASA: Was there a political war at that stage in the township between the IFP and ANC?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes there was.

MR MADASA: Was there also third force activities?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Not what I know of, no.

MR MADASA: Do you know anything about that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, nothing.

MR MADASA: And now, in retrospect?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No not at all, I carry no knowledge of that.

MR MADASA: Were you involved in diamond smuggling?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, I did not smuggle diamonds myself.

MR MADASA: No, I don't mean you personally.  Did you know about it?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja, I know about it.

MR MADASA: Which involved the deceased?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I did.

MR MADASA: Who amongst the deceased were involved in that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Joseph.

MR MADASA: And who else?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: As far as I know only Joseph.

MR MADASA: Did you know Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MADASA: How did you come to know him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: After he came to my house to go and buy the first weapons together with us.

MR MADASA: Did you know that he was a policeman before he came to you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MADASA: Did he then join you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MADASA: Were the other members aware of that, that the policeman had joined you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Only Jospeh, Joseph was the only one that was aware.

MR MADASA: Joseph and yourself?  The others did not know?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

MR MADASA: You did not tell them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

MR MADASA: Did you tell them?  Did you tell other members that Fouche a policeman had joined?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No we didn't tell them.

MR MADASA: You did not?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We didn't.

MR MADASA: Was he reliable?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja, I think so.

MR MADASA: Did you trust him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We trusted him.

MR MADASA: Now did you trust him up to the date of the shooting - Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes right up until before the shooting.

MR MADASA: Why did you not go with them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Because from the beginning I said it was going to be a trap.  It's impossible, policemen planning a robbery cannot be true.

MR MADASA: So you knew that on that day of the shooting the robbery was a trap?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I had a feeling it might be the case but I didn't have facts.

MR MADASA: Is that why you did not go with them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I stayed at home.

MR MADASA: So meaning that you did not trust Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No the robbery, no.

MR MADASA: Why did you not believe that the robbery was genuine?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: A policeman planning a robbery, I mean really, how would they achieve that?  It cannot be, it can't work.

MR MADASA: But why did you allow him to be part of you because he was a policeman and you were MKs?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We wanted remuneration for the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Well has she said she was MK?  You said you were MK, she said she was a card carrying member of the ANC?

MR MADASA: She said she was a trained MK.

CHAIRPERSON: The training she had was in discussions, she told us, not guerilla warfare.  Isn't MK training normally guerilla warfare, what we refer to as MK training in any event.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, with due respect, that's not necessarily the case.  What she says she was a trained MK, we should take it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: She made it quite clear.  As I understand it, that you were not trained in the use of violence, your training consisted of political discussions?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja.

MR MADASA: What did Fouche say was the reason for the robbery?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That was a long weekend and there was supposed to be a lot of money in that shop.

MR MADASA: What was the money for?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They were supposed to go away to South West and I think he talked about a divorce.

MR MADASA: About?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Divorce.

MR MADASA: His divorce, so he needed money?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MADASA: What about South West?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I wasn't sure, I only heard that they said they wanted to go there.

MR MADASA: Did you ever supply information to De Ru about your involvement, either yourself or the other members of the deceased?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

MR MADASA: Do you know if Fouche gave the applicant information about your activities?  You don't know?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I don't know.

MR MADASA: What information did you give to De Ru about the deceased?  What did you tell him about the deceased, about your members?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: At which stage?

MR MADASA: When you had contact with him, when you gave him information, what information did you give?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Basically Joseph was present each time that I talked to De Ru.

MR MADASA: Pardon?