Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR MOHAPE: No, I don't have a problem with that because I'm saying there were other people, maybe I did not know coloureds by the name but I mentioned yesterday that there were other people in that office.  And in that second when Erasmus said I must look over the window, somebody put the hood, this thing back over my head and it is correct if Motsamai comes and say it was coloureds, then he knows them yes, because he worked with them.

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, I'm trying to wrap this up for so far as there may be confusion or uncertainty about it, were you part of the group of 19 people who tried to skip the country?

MR MOHAPE: No, no.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  The person that you referred to vaguely in your evidence that was protected by you, was that a person by the name of Khoze?

MR MOHAPE: Correct yes.

MR VISSER: How do you spell that?

MR MOHAPE: It's K-h-o-z-e, something of that sort.

MR VISSER: Se or Ze whatever.  But that was the person who was suspected of being an informant of Mr Motsamai, have I got this right or not?

MR MOHAPE: It's what was said.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And this happened in the hall, the students' hall?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And there were chairs thrown about etc. and I think you said yesterday you were in fact one of the people who tried to protect you from being attacked or didn't you say that?

MR MOHAPE: You see I think it will be correct if I was allowed to correctly put that you know, in sequence, so that you know how it happened.  Can I do that?

MR VISSER: You see, I don't want to cut you short in any way, but it's not a terribly relevant point, with great respect, I'm not going to rely on it.  The only reason why I'm putting the question to you is just to allow the Committee Members to place matters in perspective with the evidence of Oupa Makubalo who also gave evidence about this and Mr Motsamai who told this Committee that he was listening over the earphones about what was going on in the hall.
	That was that incident and the only reasons for the question through you was just to place the Committee to remind them that it is that situation.  Nothing else turns on it.

MR MOHAPE: Alright.

MR VISSER: You are, are you a blood relationship of Jannie Mohape?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Jannie Mohape was charged and found guilty and imprisoned?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Who was the investigating officer in that case?

MR MOHAPE: I don't know.

MR VISSER: You don't know?

MR MOHAPE: Because that time I also ran away because they wanted to charge me also in that case.

MR VISSER: You were never told that it was Mr Erasmus, this Mr Erasmus sitting next to me, that was the investigating officer?

MR MOHAPE: No, nobody told me that.

MR VISSER: How did you feel about Mr Ngo?  What was your personal feelings about him?  Was it one of friendliness, one of less friendliness?

MR MOHAPE: During which period?

MR VISSER: Well, you were at school together, you're both on COSAS, there's some sort of a leadership competition it seems between you and Mr Ngo, am I right?

MR MOHAPE: No, you are wrong, you are saying we were in competition.

MR VISSER: He never stood a chance of being elected to the executive for example?

MR MOHAPE: No, don't screw the facts.  When I was at school with Ngo, Ngo was in the executive of COSAS and when you are in that executive you don't compete for positions.

MR VISSER: Even though one of the two people who might be eligible to become the Chairman, the one is more popular with the students than the other?  You say that's not a problem?

MR MOHAPE: Those were not politics of students, to compete for positions.

MR VISSER: I see, alright.  But you certainly didn't feel so friendly disposed to him?

MR MOHAPE: I don't understand what you're saying.

MR VISSER: I say, I'm putting to you that you certainly couldn't have felt friendly disposed to him when you established as a fact in your own mind that he was an informer?

MR MOHAPE: No, don't confuse issues.  When Ngo was at a point when we were gathering information about him, it was very clear to us or to me in particular, that I will not show any antagonism to him because by doing that I will then allow him to suspect that we were suspecting him.  But I had to be friendly with him and work with him and not raise any eyebrows with him, him being involved with us in COSAS doing everything because we were investigating him.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood the question, you weren't being asked about what your public behaviour was, you were being asked what your personal feelings were and speaking for myself, I would have been extremely antagonistic towards somebody who was on the executive of one of an organisation that I belonged to but at the same time was acting as a police informer against that organisation.

MR MOHAPE: I won't be and I will tell you why.  You can't be antagonistic to a person that you suspect before you are able to gather information that can expose him as an informer.  You will work with that person close, monitor that person but deep down know that this person you don't trust.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's the point.

MR VISSER: Yes, point taken.  But let's go one step further.  You now found out he's a police informer, you've established that in your own mind, he's assaulted and you are charged with murder.  How do you feel now about Ngo? - attempted murder I'm sorry.

MR MOHAPE: You know, at that time, yes, when I was charged for that, I was surely angry.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  And just on this issue, the last aspect, is it correct that the sister of your brother, Jannie Mohape I think - please stop me if I'm wrong, I don't have the family tree, is a person named Selena and she's married to one of the Mzuzwana's is that right or is it the other way round?

MR MOHAPE: It's the other way round.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, just put that on, place that on record for us please.  Selena is a sister to?

MR MOHAPE: No, no, there was no Selena involved.  There is Nontsokolo Mzuzwana who is married to my brother Jannie.

MR VISSER: Jannie Mohape during the mid 1980's, 84, 85, 86, did he have a motor vehicle that he at his disposal that he was driving either as his property or whatever?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, he had.

MR VISSER: What car was that or what vehicle was that?

MR MOHAPE: It was a Ford.

MR VISSER: Cortina?

MR MOHAPE: Cortina, light green.

MR VISSER: And - light green?

MR MOHAPE: Light green if I can remember.

MR VISSER: And would that have been a sedan car or a LDV?

MR MOHAPE: No, it was a sedan.

MR VISSER: And Eliaha Mohape, is he also a brother to you?

MR MOHAPE: He was my uncle.

MR VISSER: Your uncle.  And did he have a minibus?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: As far as your own knowledge goes, was there an attack on either of these two vehicles?

MR MOHAPE: There has been an attack.

MR VISSER: On which or on both?

MR MOHAPE: On both cars.

MR VISSER: On both.  Let's just quickly take the Cortina, was that vehicle destroyed or was it just burnt and repaired and used again?

MR MOHAPE: I cannot recall beyond that what happened to it.

MR VISSER: Okay and as far as the minibus was concerned I think our information was completely destroyed, was it?  No, no I'm sorry, I withdraw that.  Do you know what happened to the minibus?  Was that completely destroyed or could it be used again after the attack?

MR MOHAPE: I think it was used later for some time.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I do believe that's the end of my questions, may I just make quite certain Mr Chairman, whether the isn't another note?  Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you I have no further questions.  I did put to you Mr Mohape that all allegations of assault, kidnapping, any unlawful conduct which you have addressed to any of the persons that I appear for will be denied.  Do you understand that?

MR MOHAPE: I expected that.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER