Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR DORFLING: Thank you Chairperson. With the greatest respect towards my learned friend. Factual findings made by Mr Justice Nugent inter alia included that at the time when the shooting commenced such shooting emanated from the security guards in the so called defensive position. Now this finding was supported by a number of witnesses' evidence amongst others being Gollach. Gollach's evidence was not rejected in total. Certain portions could not be safely relied on Mr Justice Nugent felt. The portion of how the attack commenced from Gollach's evidence was accepted in a positive finding by Mr Justice Nugent. It is further supported by a lot of other witnesses who gave evidence to the same effect which I would ask permission to quote to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you will draw our attention to that passage or the passages in Judge Nugent's findings on this aspect?

MR DORFLING: Yes I think I have previously drawn the attention to that specifically in cross-examination of Mr Kruser in which it was put to Mr Kruser that Mr Justice Nugent in actual fact rejected the version that firing was coming from the crowd and that Mr Justice Nugent found as a positive fact that shooting emanated from the security guards positioned on the corners of King George and Plein.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) alright.

MR DORFLING: Further support for this finding by Mr Justice Nugent is to be found in the evidence of Sergeant Potgieter.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling I understand the point that you may be wanting to put to this witness in regard to challenging his version but the Inquest Court made its finding based on the evidence that was before it. That is not the evidence that is before us at this stage. I would have thought so, I would have thought that it would be sufficient perhaps if you just put what that witness said. But as to the question of the findings it is a different matter. Because we are not here to review those findings.

MR DORFLING: I quite agree with the Honourable Committee member and that is why I was quoting from the actual evidence. I do not think it is much use to put an extract from the judgment in which an interpretation is given of the evidence. I want to confront the witness with the specific evidence to get his response because that evidence is in conflict with the version he says he perceived the position to be on the day. And that is why I am doing exactly that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well you put to him Gollach's version?

MR DORFLING: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you are going to proceed with the version of the others?

MR DORFLING: Indeed Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do that.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant Potgieter, I am referring the Honourable Committee to pages 3071 line 25 to 3072 line 2. Sergeant Potgieter specifically requested to state from which position or from which side of King George Street the firing started at the time of the alleged attack and the response is as follows. "Waar het die skote geklap?" That is the question. "Tussen die groep gewees. Ek kan nie vir jou spesifiek se nie." "Watter groep nou?" "Dit is die groep hier by my. Die ANC wagte wat hier by my was het die skoot geklap en toe blaas almal weg." "Wat bedoel u blaas almal weg?" "Hulle het almal begin vuur. Daardie eerste skoot was net u weet om aanviering te gee en die res het begin skiet." "Voordat die eerste skoot gevuur is het u enigiemand gehoor 'n opdrag gee dat daar waarskuwings skote geskiet moet word?" "Nee ek kan nie vir u se nie." It is quite clear from this evidence of Sergeant Potgieter that the first shots emanated from where he was standing at the corners of King George and Plein in the immediate vicinity where the ANC guards was positioned at that time. Do you disagree with that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I can only speak for how I acted under the circumstances. The way I saw things. I cannot say which policeman said what and whether he was right or whether he fabricated whatever. I cannot speak. But I can only act, I can only speak about why I acted on how I perceived things at that point in time.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Singaram two bits of information are being put to you to comment on. The first is that the firing started from a place next to where that policeman was standing, presumably on that corner or around that corner. The second is that the firing, that he did not hear any order to give to start the firing. In other words no one gave a command that they should fire that he heard. Are you in a position to say whether you agree with the first proposition and the second proposition? That is all you being asked to do. It is no good saying over and over again this is my view and this is what I saw. Just either agree or disagree with what is being put to you.

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Honourable Committee member I was not in a position to say exactly whether I agree or not. It is unfortunate but I am not in that position. I only heard "repel" the warning shots I did not hear.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes as I understand your evidence when you moved to that corner there was general firing, is it?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is so Honourable Committee member.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was this fire coming from both directions?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Honourable Committee member if I can put things into sequence. I heard the first shot coming from King George Street. There was firing from that distance. Then afterwards I heard other firing and when I got there I got the command "repel" and I saw people moving forward in an attacking formation.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Singaram I want to put it to you that there are a number of other witnesses that were also of the opinion at the time of the inquest that the first shots at this point in time emanated from the ANC guards and not from the position where the marchers were. Your perception you say is different from that? That is not the way you perceived things to be happening?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: With due respect I did not say who shot when and how. I said that there were general firing when I already reached that corner and then the command "repel". That is what I said.

MR DORFLING: Are you excluding the possibility of the ANC guards having fired first?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I think that you better put to the ones who fired before.

MR DORFLING: No I am asking you to respond from your perspective. If you cannot comment on that you just say so but from your perspective do you exclude the possibility that the ANC guards fired first?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I am, if you want my perspective then I will give you my perspective. My perspective is that the ANC guards were trained people. That they would have under those circumstances fired warning shots. That would be my perspective and it would be a natural course of events.

MR DORFLING: And what you actually observed, not on mere inference? On what you actually observed are you excluding the possibility that the ANC guards fired first?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No I reached that corner when there was general firing and that is what I stand with.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I am not going to be putting every witness' portion of the evidence. I just want to draw the Committee's attention to the specific portions in the record. And I am not going to read it because I take it that the response is going to remain the same.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer will be the same?

MR DORFLING: It is going to be remaining the same. I want to refer the Honourable Committee members to Sergeant van Greunen's evidence which is contained at pages 2056 line 7 to 10 of the record. Sergeant van Greunen.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MR DORFLING: v-a-n G-r-e-u-n-e-n Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.