Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Madam Chair I do not have any knowledge of that.  That morning I was in a meeting at the region.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  There is also evidence that when the Witdoeke gathered in their thousands on the western edge of Crossroads from early in the morning of the 9th of June 1986 your police were present, the riot police were present.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: When the people gathered, that is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: On the western edge of Crossroads, is that true?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Mahobi Driveway, they were there, thousands of Witdoeke were there and I even addressed them there that morning and I said, through the Interpreter, that they should not fight and they said they were tired of the attacks by the Comrades.  We warned them to go away, and about 400 metres from there, from Mahobi Driveway and KTC there were about 500/600 Comrades who were dancing and I addressed them and I told them to stop the fighting.  Videos are available about this.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja, there was no fight at that stage, there was no fight at that stage.  Your evidence suggests that there were Comrades there chanting and spoiling for a fight from what I hear you to be saying.  On the other side there were these thousands of Witdoeke.
 Now what was the size of your unit?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: We were four platoons but many more platoons were sent to the unrest areas in the Western Cape from other parts of the country.  I don't know precisely how many there were but there were also army vehicles involved.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am talking about whilst you were talking to these people, how many of your people were there, at 10 o'clock on that day whilst you were saying to Witdoeke hey listen just go away, and you were saying to these Comrades hey listen don't do this, how many?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: From my section, my section accompanied me and they were six people, we were together and the other vehicles, the police vehicles were in Mahobi Driveway, those were casspirs.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you suggesting that you were meaning effectively to deal with thousands of people being six persons?  Is that how serious you regarded what was going to happen?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No Madam Chair, you do not understand me.  I addressed the people.  There were other vehicles in Mahobi Driveway and where I addressed them was about 40 or 50 metres from there, I went all by myself and addressed those people and the other vehicles were in Mahobi Driveway.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, no, I just want us to quickly you know capture the mood of the moment.  There was an attack that was imminent, in your view it was going to be either by the Comrades or by the Witdoeke, but there was going to be a bloodbath, it was clear to any person, not so?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes that is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now and there you were, as a person who is always in the field, who has a fair sense of what those situations can be like, explosive, how many men were there which you could marshall to make sure that no bloodbath takes place?   I am talking about men who were there at the time.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: There were about four or five casspirs and many army vehicles.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am talking about numbers.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: There were about 60, 70 people, policemen.

MR NTSEBEZA: And in your experience would they also have been able to contain say 3,000 people with knobkieries and whatever, and pangas?  Were you satisfied that if you had to prevent, as you had been ordered by the court to do, those people marching on the attack, on the KTC persons, were you satisfied that you would have been able to contain them with 60 men and six casspirs and other elements of the SADF?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Madam Chair I would have been able to contain them if I wanted to shoot all of them I would have shot all of them then I would have been able to contain them, but that I did not want to do.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did you have to do in order to contain them without shooting them?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: There was nothing I could do.  All you could have done was to patrol the area, that we were doing.  In Mahobi Driveway there were already wires put up.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, no, maybe I fail to understand this, you know I am not trained in that direction, but I have always believed that we have a police force and an army whose purpose is not to throw their hands up in the air and say we cannot do anything, people who are trained to deal with riotous situations successfully with minimum loss of life, was that not the mindset of the eighties?  Was the mindset of the eighties that you could only deal with a crowd like that by killing all of them or letting them loose?  Are you wanting us to conclude that that was the mindset at the time?  Either kill them, if you can't kill them let them loose and let them do what they want to do.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No definitely that is not what I am saying.  An unrest situation where two conflicting parties oppose one another is something different from a march, and where the police just have to act against all the people who are marching.  When you have two various fighting groups it's completely a different situation.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja, let's begin again.  What, other than killing all of them, whether it was Comrades to your right and Witdoeke to your left, what would or ought you to have done?  I am not persuaded that a force such as I knew the force of the Republic of South Africa as it then was, would have been unable, willing, as it wanted to be, to deal with that situation.
 For instance let me ask the question directly, did you appreciate and find the situation to be such as to call for reinforcements to be called?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes it was a very tense situation, we did ask for reinforcements.

MR NTSEBEZA: At the time that you were seeing that there were Comrades, on your evidence, on this side spoiling for a fight, on that side 3,000 also on the battle march, did you radio for more reinforcements?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes, reinforcements were asked for.

MR NTSEBEZA: What was the purpose?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: The purpose was to try and prevent this fight.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you get more reinforcements?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes reinforcements did arrive there.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Now I understand that the distance between where the Witdoeke were gathered, and where the KTC residents' houses were is about 1.5 kilometres, more-or-less, can you confirm that?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is right.

MR NTSEBEZA: And in order for those thousands of people to get to where the KTC residents were there to traverse an area of 1.5 kilometres, 1,500 metres more-or-less, do you agree with that?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Is this the area on the way to KTC or where the Witdoeke were standing?  It was a big area, they were standing over an area of about one kilometre, they were not all together.

MR NTSEBEZA: So it was very clear that there was going to be a bloodbath, it must have been very clear.  Now you see what is disturbing with reports, and I would like your comment here, is that you are reported to have taken no action to disperse the Witdoeke or prevent them from advancing to KTC, instead you were seen to be advancing with or escorting the advancing Witdoeke and when the people of KTC attempted to resist this attack you used gunfire and teargas to drive them off, what is your comment on that?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is not true.  We used teargas on the Witdoeke when the occasion was right.

MR NTSEBEZA: Well I don't know when the occasion was right, because according to your evidence, you, in your armed casspirs stood by when the Witdoeke went past you into KTC and houses were burnt under your very eyes.