Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I have already indicated, it was a national conference, there were many Inkatha followers, some of them had come from Johannesburg and others from other different parts of the country.

MR LOWIES: And the press was no doubt there as well because it's a national conference?  Do you agree or do you disagree?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say whether I agree or not, I did not see them.

MR LOWIES: If needs be evidence will be led that the national conference, anybody who wants to be there including the press, television networks etc could attend.  Will you deny this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have already indicated that I don't know, I did not see them.

MR LOWIES: Therefore I put it to you Sir that you cannot deny it?

ADV SIBANYONI: I'm sorry Mr Lowies, is it not so that normally during conferences there would be a session which would be open for public where the press and media will be there but there will also be a closed session dealing with the issues pertaining to that particular organisation or body?

MR LOWIES: Not according to my instructions at a national conference.  I will check, however I do not want to mislead anybody.
	But at this stage, Sir, I put it to you that this was not a meeting in secret and I think you will agree with me, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I indicated that I do not know.

MR LOWIES: Well ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it was a conference of the IFP, whether it was open or not I cannot say.

MR LOWIES: But let's get the picture here.  Where was the Chief Minister when he congratulated the people, on your version?  Was he in a building, was he in a hall, was he in a veld, what is the situation, that's what I want to get at?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was in a tent at Ulundi, there were many tents around.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless my memory is failing me here, I have thought that it is common cause that Mr Nosenga was taken to Ulundi at some point?

MR LOWIES: It's not denied, that's not the point.

CHAIRPERSON: At a rally that was in Ulundi.

MR LOWIES: It's possible that he could have been there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well wasn't it the evidence of the applicant, some of the applicants?

MR LOWIES: Yes but that's not the issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, just listen to what I'm saying.

MR LOWIES: I'm listening.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as I understand, I want to know where is this taking us to because it is not an issue that at some point Mr Nosenga was taken to Ulundi at a rally that was held there, that's not denied, is that right?

MR LOWIES: Correct, as you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay, then continue.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, returning to the scene where Chief Minister Buthelezi on your version congratulated the people.  How many people from kwaMadala Hostel were there that you know of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only know the ones with whom I travelled.  Yes, others travelled in their own private vehicles but I remember names like Gatchene and Mr Zulu and others.  The taxi in which we were travelling was driven by Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: Sorry could I just get that clear, there was a noise in my microphone and I think it could probably be because you're touching the microphone, please don't.  Who were the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that I remember Darkie Chonco, Mtwana Zulu and Gatchene as well as many others who had come from KwaMadala Hostel, many Indunas actually.

MR LOWIES: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you travel in a bus, kombi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No Sir, we travelled in a 16 seater Kombi E20.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the Kombi in which you were was there any other transport that went to Ulundi that you know of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw Oupa who is working at the offices and I saw some private vehicles, I would not no.

CHAIRPERSON: Darkie Chonco, Mtwana Zulu, Gatchene, these were the people who were travelling with you in what you've described as the 16 seater?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: Thank you Sir.  Now Mr Nosenga, if you have to give us an estimate, how many people would you say were inside this tent where Chief Buthelezi was at that stage when he congratulated the people on the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I won't be in a position, there were many of them really.

MR LOWIES: More than the people on the night of the attack, participating in the attack?  More than those?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think they were less than the number of people that attacked Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Why, why do you say that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Because some others had to remain behind at KwaMadala Hostel and I would not know as to why they decided to remain behind.

MR LOWIES: But were there people from Ulundi in the tent?
I'm talking at the time when the Chief on your version congratulated the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did mention that there were people from around Natal.  I don't know them, yes they were present.

MR LOWIES: How many people from Natal, not from the hostel would you say were there?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not know, there were many people really, I could not count them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want Mr Nosenga to tell us how many people at that rally or meeting came from Natal, is that what you're asking him to do?

MR LOWIES: I'm asking him to give us an estimate as to how many people he would say were not from KwaMadala and were from Ulundi because he says they were from Natal, on his version.

CHAIRPERSON: But how on earth do you expect him to know that?

MR LOWIES: Chair I would have thought it works as follows ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's get the answer from him.
	Mr Nosenga, had you been to a rally in Ulundi before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that was my first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to tell us who of the people who were at that meeting came from Ulundi, Mashlabatini, Nomgoma, Durban, Johannesburg and Orange Free State?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I would not be in the position, there were many of these people.

CHAIRPERSON: The people that were in the 16 seater, was the Kombi full?  The Kombi in which you were travelling?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it was full.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and did these people sit together with you, that is the people that were in the Kombi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was sitting on the engine of the Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: No I mean once you get to the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, turning to that issue in the tent, you said that you're of the opinion that some of the people from - I repeat - some of the people in the tent were from Natal and not from KwaMadala.  Having got your opinion on record that there were some from Natal, my question is can you tell us how many people were there from Natal as you see it.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have indicated that I don't know, there were so many of them I still maintain.

MR LOWIES: More than 50?  I'm asking for an estimate only.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I cannot commit myself, I do not know, there were many of them.

MR LOWIES: Could there have been less than 50?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Lowies, sorry, where is this ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I still maintain that I did not know these people, there were many of them, I therefore cannot approximate.

ADV SIGODI: Where is this cross-examination going to take us insofar as how many people from Natal were there, how many from Gauteng were there?  I mean if you are trying to say, I mean that there were many people and what the applicant is saying did not happen that the Chief Minister did not say what he's saying he said, why don't you simply put it to him that this never happened and then get onto the other aspects?