Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MR MOERANE: And the next step was to commit a fraud on the judicial process, by giving this perjured and false evidence before firstly, the first inquest.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, I gave evidence during the first inquest.

MR MOERANE: And notwithstanding all the attempts by the legal representatives of the deceased to get you to tell the truth, you all stuck to your lies.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.  If we had not done that, as I regard it the ANC would have won, with regard to the incident.  We had to do that, it was part of the struggle.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but you see you were a member of the Police Force at that time, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And your duty and your function was to uphold the law.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And to protect human beings and their property.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And as part of upholding the law, your duty was to investigate crime.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, but the Security Branch had a special wing of crime investigation, we had to focus on the maintenance of internal security.  Therefore, we didn't focus on regular crime.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but your duty was to investigate those special crimes with which you were involved.  In other words, terrorism, sabotage, activities of the then unlawful organisations.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And bring the perpetrators of those crimes to book.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, we did bring some of those people to book.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and that's what you should have done.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: With regard to this incident, as I have already explained, I did know that there were certain actions which we would have to launch.  We were not within the parameters of the law because we were in a state of warfare and we were trying to combat an armed force with laws which weren't working.  We had to go into a warfare situation where we entered into combat with each other.

MR MOERANE: Who told you that?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That was my own perception which I formulated from the discussions which I had with persons such as Mr de Kock and many senior security officials.  Also it was due to the propaganda which the government presented.

MR MOERANE: Well, from the propaganda that the politicians sent out, did they say that you should do unlawful things, illegal things?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: It was never put to us pertinently.

MR MOERANE: In fact, throughout this period your political bosses always praised the Police Force for acting properly, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And people who had been involved in activities such as those you have described, were rewarded by being decorated, given medals, being promoted, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: People such as Vlakplaas members were regarded as heroes by me and the Security Branch and I assumed that from time to time they were involved in such similar operations and this indicated to me that it was indeed acceptable for the country at that stage.

MR MOERANE: When did you start being involved in these illegal activities in your fight against the ANC?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: This was my first incident.

MR MOERANE: June 1988?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: But if I understand your evidence correctly, by then you had already formed the idea and held the beliefs that it was proper to use illegal and unlawful methods in fighting the ANC?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I foresaw that at a stage we would have to enter into a situation of war.

MR MOERANE: And those immediately above you, your immediate superiors, did they tell you that you could use unlawful methods in this fight?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: With the exception of this incident, I never received a direct order.  I collected information and fed it back and if an operation was planned, it would usually be done in conjunction with Mr Pienaar or other senior officials, as was the case in this matter.

MR MOERANE: Well before this incident, did anyone of them, Mr Pienaar or any of your superiors, tell you that it was proper to use unlawful methods in the fight against the ANC?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: It is possible that we may have had a regular discussion or conversation about that, but before this incident that I was involved in I never received a direct order that we were going to engage in such an operation.

MR MOERANE: Did anyone tell you that it was proper and acceptable to kill unarmed persons?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: At the time of the planning of this action, or these two actions, I was thoroughly convinced that they would be armed.  That was the perception that I had of persons who were crossing the border and the limited level of experience that I had about ANC infiltrators is that they would enter the country with arms, and I reconciled myself with that because according to that little knowledge that I have, I felt that this was the safest method.

MR MOERANE: Did anyone tell you that it was proper and acceptable to murder unarmed persons?  That was the question.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: No.

MR MOERANE: At the time, did you think it was proper and acceptable?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: No.

MR MOERANE: But then after the first incident, after you had realised that people with whom you associated yourself, had murdered unarmed people, you were prepared to go ahead and be part of the second incident, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now seeing that the first group was unarmed, you appreciated the possibility that the second group might also be unarmed.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: As with the first incident the chances were still very great that they could be armed.  And I regarded the first incident as one of those unfortunate incidents.  We assumed that they were going to be armed and the fact that they were unarmed was no guarantee that the next group would also not be armed.  Thus, we had to foresee the possibility of armed groups crossing the border again, as was the usual trend at that stage.

MR MOERANE: Isn't the truth of the matter, Mr Hayes, that it really didn't matter whether they were armed not?  These were ANC people, they had to be eliminated.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I did not go out to shoot unarmed people dead, I went out to fight against an armed soldier.

MR MOERANE: No, no, you went out to kill your enemy, the ANC.  The ANC, according to you, was at that stage winning the war, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: So you went out to battle, to defeat your enemy.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, we went out to destroy them because we believed that they would be armed.

MR MOERANE: Well I'm putting it to you that it really did not matter whether or not they were armed.  Your plan was to catch them in a trap, in an ambush, and kill them, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is how it was explained to me, because the persons would be armed, that was the safest method that we could apply to stop those people.

MR MOERANE: Let's have a look at the statements you made with regard to these events.  The first statement is the one in bundle 3A.  You have already been referred to this one.

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 7.

MR MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	You've already pointed out the lies in this statement.  What I'd like to find out from you is, the problems which you say were experienced at Piet Retief, when the inquest into this matter was being held, what were those problems?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: As far as I could determine, in terms of what Brig Engelbrecht explained to me with the making of the statement, was that I was at the scene and evidence was given that I did nothing at the scene, while I held a light.

MR MOERANE: Well, are you aware of any other problems with the first inquest?

CHAIRPERSON: Are these problems concerning himself, or generally?