Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

MR PRINSLOO: Just a last question.  Mr Msibi, Mr Beki Mlangeni he says that his late brother was never involved in politics and that his brother was merely a victim of a robbery.  Any comment about that?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes, that is correct.  He was not involved in politics as much as I was not involved in politics.  We were working together at my shop.  I also worked at Mondi where I worked for twenty years, that led me to establishing the business.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else?

MR HATTINGH: No questions thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, there's a question.
	Do you know Noma Themba Mlangeni?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I know her very well.  She grew right before me.

MR MAPOMA: How related is she to Themba?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: She is Themba's sister.  She's the one whom I said is working at the Provincial Hospital.  Her other name is Adelaide.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you're excused
WITNESS EXCUSED

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Thank you Chairperson.  I would just like to say something.

CHAIRPERSON: Has it got to do with your injury?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us hear.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: What hurts me, Chairperson, the Committee and everybody present here, is that I was abused not being member of any political party.  One of the things I would like to point out is that I thought I would get the truth here as to what happened but nobody spoke the truth.  Gushu himself the one who shot at us, he doesn't know me, not do I.  He never spoke the truth here and that hurts.  I'm a peaceful person and I'm prepared to make peace with him but what I find very strange that we are strangers.  He never came to me to apologise not even to say listen I wronged you I'm very sorry. He never did that.

CHAIRPERSON: But he intends to put that right.  He said he's going to set about setting that matter right.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Chairperson, he should also retract from the reference to me as a puppet.  What he explained here...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: When you people talk and make your peace, those are issues you can talk about.  I can't force him to do anything like that.  That's not the purpose of this forum but I certainly hope that if it's going to bring peace between the two of you when you raise it that he will retract it.  I can only encourage him to do it if that is going to go anywhere near making peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Chairperson.  There will be peace yes provided he tells the truth.  I was not in conflict with him, I was shot, I am still maintaining that I am for peace.  They gave him wrong information.  They didn't come to me to verify it and I still maintain that he did not divulge the truth here.  That's what he should do - divulge the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: I will note that.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Madam?

UNKNOWN: That is all thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh I would appreciate it if it's one victim per incident.  I don't think we want four witnesses to testify to one incident because everybody cannot be victims.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I can indicate that I have on my list seven people whom I would like to call on.

CHAIRPERSON: You better make it quick because it seems to be increasing the more time you get.

MR HATTINGH: If we might start straight away?  With your permission I would beg leave to call Elias Zwane.  Elias Zwane would be the brother of the late Jwi Zwane.   Mr Chairman, may I also make the use of the opportunity to make available the documents that I would like hand to the Committee.  I'm not before lunch going to refer to those documents.

CHAIRPERSON: You say not before lunch?

MR HATTINGH: Let's say I'm not going to refer to those documents before one o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll probably sit right through.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane what language would you like to use?

ELIAS ZWANE: I'll testify in Zulu.

ELIAS ZWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I'm going to appeal to you also to keep it straight on the narrow as far as victims is concerned.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, is it correct that you were the brother of the late Jwi Zwane?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Are you a business man in this area?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And at the time of the killing of Jwi Zwane were you in business then?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: What kind of business and how many businesses and where were you in business?

ELIAS ZWANE: From 1986 I have about twelve shops.

MR HATTINGH: In this area?

ELIAS ZWANE: Two at the ....[indistinct] border gate, two in Piet Retief and I have six in Ermelo.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane tell the Committee - your brother the late Jwi Zwane, was he married?

ELIAS ZWANE: No he wasn't.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether he had any dependents?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes he had eight kids.

MR HATTINGH: What happened to those eight children from the time that he got killed?

ELIAS ZWANE: They stay with me.

MR HATTINGH: Are you now responsible for looking after them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, can you ask your attorney to get the names, full names of those children.

INTERPRETER: Excuse me there's something wrong with the equipment there, the interpreter can't get anything from the floor.

CHAIRPERSON: And get the full names and get it to us before we adjourn today.
	Mr Zwane, if those children are declared victims is the TRC able to communicate with them at your address?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

ELIAS ZWANE: My address is 2671.

CHAIRPERSON: Ermelo?

ELIAS ZWANE: Wesselton.  2671 Wesselton.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now tell me, how do you feel about the death of your brother?

ELIAS ZWANE: I feel very bad.

CHAIRPERSON: How is - are his children being effected by his death?  I'm sure they are.

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes they were adversely effected.  As a result I wanted to show each and every one of the perpetrators and show the kids to them and ask them if they are happy and satisfied with the results that they got out of killing their father.

CHAIRPERSON: How old are - what's the range of the ages of these children?

ELIAS ZWANE: The youngest is ten years old.

CHAIRPERSON: All of them less than ten?

ELIAS ZWANE: The youngest is ten years old.  The others are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the oldest one?

ELIAS ZWANE: He or she is twenty two years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh will you include the ages of those names please?

MR HATTINGH: I'll do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Things have happened in Ermelo, rightly or wrongly.  What is your attitude towards restoring the fibre of the community here in Ermelo?

ELIAS ZWANE: I never had a problem with the community, it's the community that had a problem with me.

CHAIRPERSON: But now that things have happened, are you prepared to allow the community to make peace with you and you with the community?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes I am prepared but I'm only prepared on condition the perpetrators speak the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise you won't?

ELIAS ZWANE: No I will not be able to because they're still hiding the facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when your brother was killed.

ELIAS ZWANE: No I was not but it was reported to me at a later stage and I went to the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: So how do you know they're not telling the truth?

ELIAS ZWANE: The person who killed him is not telling the truth as to how it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say so, you weren't there?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes, I wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: So how can you say he's not telling the truth?

ELIAS ZWANE: I got the story from the one who related it to me and when I went to check I could see that the one who was telling me was the one who told me the truth before and not the one who testified.