Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: So this is also not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Therefore it is not correct?

MR LAX: Please Mr Lowies, we don't have to belabour the point every single time, you put this is not correct?  It is patently obvious it is not correct if he says he doesn't know it.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.  On the day of the attack, how did you know that this is now going to be the date, this is now the day for the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The alarm was sounded on the 17th and people were called to a meeting.  That alarm was sounded on the 17th, the evening.

MR LOWIES: And who Chaired this meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: People like Darkie Chonco and others, including Gatchene and some people from Natal whom I did not know.  We all went to that meeting.

MR LOWIES: Was Peens there at this specific meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir I said I last saw Peens at the meeting held two weeks prior to the attack and we later met him near Boipatong where they had been waiting for us.

MR LOWIES: Was Themba Khosa at this meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he was not present.  It was just induna's who were present.

MR LOWIES: Did you see Themba Khosa at all on this specific day prior to the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see him on the 17th.

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement to Mr Kjellberg you say that the trumpets gave a signal and we gathered at the stadium, at the hostel area.  When Themba Khosa arrived at the hostel, he gave certain commands to the induna's who informed us that Khosa had obtained the guns and some of them were from Peens?  This is not true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: The only time that you saw Peens on that day, was at the time of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is true.

MR LOWIES: Because in paragraph 10 of your statement you say to Mr Kjellberg
"... I also saw Peens coming to the hostel on the day of the attack, together with his colleague Chaka ...",
	so this is not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: "... they came in Peens' private car ...",
	not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: You even described the car as a white Opel Monza, not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: To Kjellberg you also said
"... I saw him hand over money to Victor Keswa ...",
	not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say that during the day of the 17th, he did hand over money to Victor Keswa.

MR LOWIES: No, but I understand from you - sorry, when did he do this, was this after the attack that Peens handed the money, because this is in conflict with what you said earlier?  Can you explain?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I said during the day of the 17th, he did hand over money to Victor, they were at a parking lot, the Iscor parking lot.

MR LOWIES: Not at the hostel?

MR LAX: Sorry, please just explain this for us.  Why did you say you didn't see him at all, the last time you saw him you said, was two weeks prior?  Those were your specific words?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I must have misunderstood.  The question was not very clear.

CHAIRPERSON: You see your evidence was that and you were emphatic, you had last seen Peens at a meeting two weeks prior to the attack and the next time you saw him, was when you met them to go for the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is so, but the question was not very clear.  I last saw Curtis on the 17th, during the day when he was standing together with Peens.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not talking about Curtis, we are talking about Peens.  Okay, let's get this thing straight now.  Did you see Peens on the 17th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see him during the day and I was with Curtis.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how he arrived at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were outside the hostel at the Iscor parking lot, that is where he was parked.

CHAIRPERSON: So they did not come inside, into the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they were just standing at the parking lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Yes?

MR LAX: Just one thing, sorry, you said he was parked there, so did you see his car?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was not his car, it was his service vehicle.

MR LAX: Yes, but what kind of car was it if you saw it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was a white vehicle.

MR LAX: Yes, what kind?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: A Monza.

MR LAX: When you were just asked a few minutes ago whether you saw his white car, an Opel Monza, you said no, no, you don't know anything about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I must have misunderstood, but it was a white Monza that he arrived in.

MR LOWIES: Was Peens alone?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him alone.

MR LOWIES: So he did not arrive with Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I don't remember that.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement says that he arrived together with his colleague, Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.  I only saw Chaka during the night of the 17th.

MR LOWIES: Was this the first time for you to see that money was handed by Peens to Victor Keswa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether in the past as a result of what you had been told for instance, that Victor had been getting money from Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not.  I saw it happening for the first time on the 17th at that Iscor parking lot.

MR LOWIES: Do you have any suspicion that Peens may have been giving Victor money before, before this specific day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Because to Mr Kjellberg you said the following
"... Victor confirmed to me later that same day that he was given money by Peens on the day of the attack.  I often saw Peens meeting Victor Keswa and I am sure that he got money from Peens."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, all I am saying is that I saw him giving him money on the 17th, and I do not know how much it was.

MR LOWIES: Did Victor Keswa confirm to you at any stage that Peens had given him money, whether on that day or any other day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I saw him on the 17th being given money by Peens.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement says that Victor confirmed that money was given, that you deny?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: At the stadium, who gave you muti to drink?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Every person was free to drink that muti at the stadium.

MR LOWIES: The question is who gave it to you sir, who handed you the muti?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.  There was ntelezi at the stadium.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody hand the gun over to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I picked it up from the ground, no one handed it to me.

MR LOWIES: How many guns would you say, were there, AK47's?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot estimate, but there were.

MR LOWIES: Did you see any other rifles or guns?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, small guns.

MR LOWIES: Such as?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say, I do not know what type of guns they were, but there were shotguns as well.

MR LOWIES: Do you know what a 38 Special Revolver is?

CHAIRPERSON: We can't hear you, what is - speak up please.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement reads as follows
"... I was given an AK47 but I  know that 38 Special Revolver and shotguns were used?

MR LAX: It is in brackets Mr Lowies, it is explaining what a 38 Special is.

MR LOWIES: Do you know what a 38 Special is?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he just told us that he doesn't know what it is?