Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I would have had the addresses from the debriefing sessions, etcetera.  I would have given it to General Liebenberg and there, action would have been taken, but during an infiltration you had to look at the addresses, these addresses would have been investigated, action would have been taken and action was taken in Guguletu, but many of the addresses were fictitious, because the people did  not sleep there every evening.

MS PATEL: Are you saying then, Sir, that proper surveillance was carried out at these addresses that you were, that were given to you at the initial stage?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I believe that the information would have been given to the local security branch and I would have sent people to those addresses.  I liaised with all the branches, I would have even given these addresses to the detectives, because it is better for a detective to go to these houses and he does not attract the attention which a security police does, because then they know that politics are involved.  That is what I would have done, yes.

MS PATEL: So, with all the resources available to you, the assistance from all the various departments in the Western Cape, you were unable, from that time till the time that the operation had taken place, you were unable to effect an arrest or to get enough information inbetween in order to do that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I would have done all that was possible between Liebenberg, I and the other branches we made all the attempts we could and as I said yesterday at the scene, this is, I told Jimmy and Eric keep control of the weapons, try to drive the vehicle.  If we do not make contact, we have to try to arrest them and something happens make sure that something serious does not happen.  That is why Jimmy drove and Eric kept the weapons away.  So, I still wanted to attempt an arrest and as far as I was concerned, it was a very risky situation and I believed that we would be involved in a fight and I did everything possible that I could in order to trace down these people or track down these people.

MS PATEL: All right.  Mr Mbane says further that soon after he had infiltrated the group there was a request given that he was the senior in charge of the group, for him to train the rest of the group and that this request was then relayed to you and you then gave him permission to proceed.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If I can comment on this.  At Crossroads, according to the information that Mbane had, there were a whole lot of weapons that were hidden in a church.  There was even a shooting range that was, and he asked me what must I do if the people ask me to teach them to shoot.  In order to live out the legend I would have said to him, yes, teach them to shoot, but do not go with them in operations, do not become involved in operations.
	I recall one specific incident.  I used a police helicopter to take aerial photographs of Crossroads.  They wanted to attack the police helicopter while Mbane said do not do that, you are going to get trouble from the Boers side.  That was my instruction to them, teach them to shoot and speak propaganda, but do not go into operations.  I only know of one isolated incident where I told them to just scare off a police vehicle, just to live out their legend properly, because otherwise the infiltrated freedom fighters would wonder why these people want to train us, but they never want to go on operations with us and this is why we had to stage something just to give their, make them more legitimate.

MS PATEL: Mr Mbane accepts that the incident in which the seven deceased here were killed was, in fact, the first major operation that he took his group on.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, but before this they did have an, other operation, they shot at a police vehicle, but nobody was killed or hurt.  It was just a round of shots that were shot off.

MS PATEL: Okay.  He says, further, that in the bid to train them that you had supplied him with ammunition and arms and he mentions specifically the arms that were given to him.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: But as I have already said, they have infiltrated with two AK47's, two double magazines plus a Tokarev.  Now they have the weapons, so I am not denying this, but if he got training for this and gave them training then it was with those weapons that he did it.  They were already trained, but Jimmy had to live out his legend and if anyone in the group said to them show us how these guns shoot, then he had to do something to live out his legend.  So, I do not deny this, but I did not bring in any extra weapons, if that is what you mean.

MS PATEL: In terms of living out his legend, he says that when he first came there he was presented with a gun that was defective and he was asked to repair it and that Eric Maluleka who was with him, who was an expert in the field then repaired it and that was part of him living out his legend at that stage and that they did not require much more than that subsequently.  So, the basis of the trust had already been established.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I do not have any reports to go back on and I cannot say while I will, would deny this, instructions were given, legends were lived out, weapons were repaired, I am not going to deny this.  They were on the ground, what they are saying there is what they, they reported this to me and I reported this to head office.  Today I do not have those documents before me to say they are either lying or not.  I think they most probably did fix the weapons, they gave training, I am not denying this.

MS PATEL: He says, further, that four AK47's were handed to him, eight fully loaded magazines, four, what he terms, defensive hand grenades and four detonators were handed to him.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Definitely not from me.  Here I am standing, I have the responsibility of two AK47's and a Tokarev, why would I hide that, I do not know where he got those weapons.

MS PATEL: All right, he says further that during the weeks that he spent with them and whilst he was training them, that you then, between, sorry, I should say that Mr Liebenberg was, at most times, together with you, so when I say you I include Mr Liebenberg, all right.  That during the time that he had infiltrated and while he was training them, you then supplied them with further ammunition in order for him to effect the training.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, they would have had enough with them.  Possibly after the shooting incident on the Caspar I might have given them a few extra rounds, but I cannot recall this incident.

MS PATEL: He says, further, that all they had on them, was Chris Piet had an AK47 and there were two revolvers amongst the group, that was it.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As he reported to me and as I said in the encoded message, that is how the information went.  Today Jimmy Mbane has another story and it is not in agreement with what happened then, I cannot comment.  I deny that he says that I gave such and such to him, what is on paper is the truth.  Unfortunately, I do not have all my hand written notes.

MS PATEL: And you stand by that regardless of the fact that this incident happened so long ago and that all your notes were destroyed?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, why would I just give a little bit and not everything?  Here we are dealing with the full disclosure.  I will speak the truth, but I will not add any fiction.  (end of tape 1A).

MS PATEL: Is it part of the practice at Vlakplaas that when ammunition and arms is given out that it is not always in a proper condition for use, that it may be, as they say, doctored?