Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't think you understood the question.  If you changed your mind when democracy came, why did you wait from the end of April 1994 until the date on which you made your application for amnesty?  Have you any explanation?

MR SNYMAN: Perjury was committed under pressure.

GEORGE BIZOS: What pressure was put on you and by whom?

MR SNYMAN: As I have already mentioned in the applications we drafted due to the death of Mr Biko, that lies were told.

GEORGE BIZOS: You also gave evidence in the Goniwe inquest.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You denied that you had anything to do with it.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, at this point I want to say that that is part of an application for amnesty which I have handed in.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm testing whether you had any good reason for waiting for so long after the dawn of democracy which you say made you a different man.

MR SNYMAN: Please repeat your question, I do not understand it?

GEORGE BIZOS: I think ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If I may just help ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Please do.

CHAIRPERSON: It has been put to you that as a result of the change in this country when it became a democracy in 1994, you've changed your views that you held previously.
	Now the question really boils down to this;  if that change came about in you in 1994;  why did you wait until now to make this application?  Why didn't you apply earlier?  I think that is the purpose of the question.

MR SNYMAN: We were offered the opportunity to apply for amnesty which opportunity we took.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, the copies of his applications is not complete, because it does not give the date.  May I ask for assistance to place the date of the application on record, please?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, can you throw any light on the date of this application?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I do not know the exact date, but the application reached the office in 1997, in early 1997.

GEORGE BIZOS: Early what?

CHAIRPERSON: Early 1997, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Okay.  Why did you wait for almost three years to give expression to your reformation?  (Laughter).

MR SNYMAN: The current Government offered us the opportunity to apply for amnesty which opportunity we did take?

GEORGE BIZOS: Answer the question please;  why did it take you almost three years to profess your reformation?

CHAIRPERSON: I think to be fair to the witness, Mr Bizos, the act under which he's applying was only promulgated in December 1995.  So maybe it wasn't ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I'm not for one moment suggesting that he had no right to wait.  I am merely testing whether or not he's telling the truth that democracy made him a different man.	May I suggest the reason to you that this application was made as a result of the person sitting to your right, one Niewoudt, who had other reasons for applying for amnesty, that you fell along with it?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, those are not the facts.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you give us any other explanation?

MR SNYMAN: At an earlier stage amnesty applications were completed by us members of the security branch and these were sent to Pretoria.  However, we received no response to these applications.  I cannot recall the date of that application.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there another meeting like the one that you had on the Saturday morning after Mr Biko's death to decide what you were going to say?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: On page 2 of your application, you claim to have done this in the interest of the National Party Government.  Could you name anyone in the National Party who advised publicly or even privately that a detainee was not entitled to sit on a chair?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You also say that you acted faithfully in accordance of the principles of your church.  Can you quote anybody in your church that advocated that a detainee was not entitled to sit on a chair?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you quote anyone in the National Party who suggested to you that a detainee was to be kept naked in his cell and whilst he was being interrogated?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour, this was an instruction which we received through our commanding officer from our head office.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you please tell me whether anyone in the National Party told you, or suggested to you that detainees were to be kept naked in their cell and naked whilst they were being interrogated by a team of security policemen.

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anyone in your church suggest that you might do that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You give the impression in your application that you are a God-fearing man who was brought up in a good family who had respect for religion.  Am I summarising the position correctly?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is committing perjury part and parcel of that upbringing?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or the committing the crime of defeating the ends of justice?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you take the trouble to count the number of lies that you told to magistrate Prins in the Old Synagogue in Pretoria ... (intervention).

MR SNYMAN: I realise this, your Honour, but as I've said earlier, this was done under pressure from my commanding officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: My learned colleague sitting on my right who is appearing with me, counted over 80 specific falsehoods of fact which you deposed to.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we did make a false statement ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: That even if we were to omit some of the less important ones, there are almost 40 material false statements.  Are you prepared to accept the number as more or less correct?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to recall that entirely, your Honour, but I will accept that if that is your claim.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, you took the oath here to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, like you did when your made your affidavit and when you took the oath before the magistrate.  Can you please give the Committee some idea as to how it can decide when the oath is binding on your conscience and when it is not?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the oath is binding on my conscience.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just as it was at the Old Synagogue.

MR SNYMAN: As I have already said, it was a false statement, under pressure.

GEORGE BIZOS: What pressure was placed on you?

MR SNYMAN: The commanding officer instructed us as to how we should draft these statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you blindly follow his advice?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, we followed it blindly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the Commissioner of Police?  Why didn't you go to him and say that the colonel is expecting met to commit perjury, I'm not prepared to do it?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, we did not take that course of action.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Deputy Commissioner at the time was either Brig or Gen Johan Coetzee.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: I didn't hear you.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: He comes from these parts of the world like you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was, or appeared to be as if he was orchestrating the happenings at the hearing of the inquest,  is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, that is not correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: He and Genl Zietsman were there every day.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, they were present.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why didn't you go up either to Genl Zietsman, or Brig or Genl Coetzee, whatever his rank may have been at the time, and say I'm not prepared to commit perjury, nor am I prepared to attend to defeat the ends of justice?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, as this pressure was exerted on us by Col Goosen, we would simply not have dared to do so.