Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, two reasons.  First of all the race being black, Negroid, it is a very rare occurrence, extremely rare occurrence to find a heart attack in a  young woman.  This is still, I would consider quite young, in heart disease terms in the black population.
	For that matter, even in the older black person, it is not quite common, although we are seeing the early creeping of heart disease into this group in the urban black population, not so much the rural.
	Secondly, sorry, what was your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it unusual?

MS THABETHE: Why was it ...

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, oh, I was trying to - the second reason ...

CHAIRPERSON: Would you get a difference between, would there be, usually speaking, I am not talking about this case now, but generally speaking, the chances of getting a heart attack while you are sitting on the bus or sitting at your office desk or laying asleep in your bed, as opposed to being involved in a highly traumatic situation such as an assault?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, as the Chairman would know, the Committee would know that the instance of heart attacks or precipitated heart attacks is higher in stress situations, so that would be the circumstances under which, as I know it, this deceased, the alleged deceased here, alleged individual was placed under, which would be a highly stressed situation, but even so, I have not seen a black female, and here female, not black male, black female of this age, collapse with a heart attack under these circumstances, even in the most extreme circumstances, the heart does not give up.

MS THABETHE: Interesting.

MR LAX: Did I hear you say it was extremely rare, were those the words you used?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  In fact there is one case that I recall in my experience of a youngish black female having a heart disease, heart attack, but that was due to some affliction of the coronary by some other inflammatory auto immune process, that doesn't relate to degenerative coronary disease as we know it, because of affluence.
	It is another condition causing, by chance, affecting the coronaries.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  I want to move on now to Dr Chetty's report.  It is on page 67 of the Bundle.  First of all, before I ask you to comment, would you say you are qualified or you are in a position to comment about generally the kinds of post-mortem examinations done by District Surgeons?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: In this province?

MS THABETHE: In the province, yes?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And why would you be qualified would you say?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Simply because throughout my practice, while as a trainee doctor in the speciality and after I qualified, I have been a consultant for the province of Natal, doing problem solving, repeating post-mortems, correcting the deficiencies, teaching and training and I have an intimate knowledge, if I may say, of the way post-mortems are carried out in the rest of the province.  We have done some research if I may call it, ...(indistinct) research work into this, in the effort to try and straighten out and correct these deficiencies.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Would you like to comment and inform us about how these post-mortems are done generally?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: How the post-mortems are done?

MS THABETHE: Yes, by District Surgeons?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Suffice it to say that I have a tendency to try, to convert this into a lecture, but with due respect, suffice to say that there are very many deficiencies in the autopsy service, considerable deficiencies, and it is a strength at the very heart of my motivation to work and continue work in this field.
	I have made many, many protests to the Department of Health, Department of Justice, Department of Police about the deficiencies to the effect that I have actually said this open in court, in High Court, and it led to some changes because I mentioned it in High Court.
	Prof Dada and myself, the Department when I was still there, tried to look at it and tried to identify the deficiencies, and at the moment the Department of Health and the University is in a programme to improve the quality of autopsy work, which if I may use a term, is sometimes in some places, appalling.

MS THABETHE: In what way?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I will just give you a brief idea.  I think there is very little insight into the way evidence should be presented in court, in the justice system.
	There is little insight into for example things like chain ...(indistinct) evidence, into proper identification, proper storage, proper receipt and documentation of specimens, proper handling of biological assessments and exhibits, and of course, the proper way to write out a post-mortem report, as simple as that.
	So there are deficiencies in that respect, and also there is a lack of training in the presentation, verbal and otherwise, of presenting evidence in court to the detriment of the justice system.

MS THABETHE: You were present when Mr Ismail gave evidence.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Were you present, you heard what he said?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Would you like to comment about that, I mean would you like to support or comment, give comment about what he said and refer to the specific paragraphs, let's say for example paragraph 3 where he says decomposed bodies were regularly brought into the mortuary?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.   I can as a general idea, I can only but support Mr Ismail's statements, in general and say that what he says to be common practice, to have been common practice then, I think is quite true.
	In fact, a little bit of that still persists now, at this very date and time.  That is the own initiative of our work, to go and correct those deficiencies.  Regarding the specifics, the fact that, first of all, not all bodies, not all decomposed bodies if suspected a gunshot, would come to Gale Street, I was at Gale Street at that time, and it would only be done with consultation and what he said about only if the Police indicate on the SAP180 form that there is foul play, a murder, shooting, then only would they consult us for an X-ray. 
	As regards ...

MR LAX: Sorry, are you confirming that aspect of his evidence?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, I am supporting that.

MR LAX: It wasn't clear what you were trying to say.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I am supporting that, yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Secondly he says ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying that, because my notes are different, I must have made a mistake, that every body found for instance in the jurisdiction of the Verulam mortuary which was suspected of a gunshot, to have a gunshot wound, would be sent to Gale Street for X-rays?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that is what I thought Mr Ismail said, and then he said the only ones where post-mortems would be performed, would be where a policeman was involved in the alleged or suspected killing?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then Gale Street would keep the body, otherwise all bodies with bullet wounds would go to Gale Street and then be returned?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: But Mr Ismail did indicate that it was left to the discretion of the doctor and if he felt he could do the post-mortem without an X-ray, then he went ahead without the X-ray.

CHAIRPERSON: In your experience, how often do you get these bodies from other mortuaries for X-ray purposes and which are returned later for post-mortem to the mortuary from whence they came?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I will speak about the time when I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.