Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So the policy of the PAC as you are articulating to us was the way you understoodit at the time of the incident?

MR PENI: Pleaserepeat the question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The politics of the PAC as you articulated, as you have just articulated tous today, was the way you personally, you as an individual Mr Peni, understoodit to be at the time of the incident?

MR PENI: Itis how we were taught.

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: Mr Chair could I interject at this stage, I think the interpretation is notcoming out clearly. I can pick this up because I can understand both languages.I think there is a bit of a problem with the interpretation into Xhosa in termsof the sense in which Justice Ngoepe is asking his questions.

CHAIRPERSON: What seems to be the difficulty? Let's try again.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The politics of the PAC as you explained to us this morning, was the way youunderstood it on that fateful day?

MR PENI: Itis how I was taught.

JUDGE WILSON: So were you a member of the PAC on that day?

MR PENI: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And PASO was an affiliate of the PAC, am I right?

MR PENI: Itis so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But didn't the PAC have a constitution which allowed White people to be members?

MR PENI: Inthe way I was taught there was no such.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Peni, when did you become a member of the PAC?

MR PENI: In1990.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when were you elected as the Chairperson of PASO?

MR PENI: In1993 on the 25th of August.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And prior to the 25th of August 1993 did you hold any executive position withPASO?

MR PENI: No,I was just helping.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So meaning you were just an ordinary member of PASO?

MR PENI: Yesit is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now in your evidence you stated that you were inspired to a great extent bythe speeches delivered by Mr Mfengu and Mr Mathebula which encouraged you tomake the country ungovernable?

MR PENI: Yes,it is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now did the speakers on the day in question, that is the 25th of August 1993,explain to you how you were to make the country ungovernable? Were you givenany ideas on how you would achieve the state of ungovernability of the country?

MR PENI: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you think that by killing a person that you met on that day would actuallyassist you in achieving that state of ungovernability?

MR PENI: That'swhat we believed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the difference between a political slogan and the policy of a politicalparty?

MR PENI: YesI do know.

CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct in saying that the PAC is on record as having said that OneSettler, one bullet was not part of the policy of the PAC but merelya slogan that was used by some members?

MR PENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like you to go back because I think that this might have some relevanceto your conduct on that day when you said that "you were in high spirits" atthat time, do you recall saying that?

MR PENI: YesI do recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely what do you mean by that?

MR PENI: WhenI say what Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: When you were in "high spirits" at that time, that is the 25th of August.

MR PENI: WhatI am saying is that we were very eager to obey the instructions of PASO thatwe make South Africa ungovernable.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that being in "high spirits" is something that happened or lasts fora time, for a short period of time, that afternoon was not just something thatjust happened that afternoon that you were in "high spirits"?

MR PENI: Yesthere are times when the spirits would be high, sometimes they would be down,but on that day we were sent to do a job, to work.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, with the Chairman's permission may I interrupt here and find out fromthe Interpreter whether, well I don't know the language that the applicant isspeaking, but would it not be correct to say that what he says is that theywere excited by saying high spirits, isn't that what he's been saying?

INTERPRETER: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: That's what I interpreted.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We really wanted to hear the word "excited", that's what we are looking for.

INTERPRETER: Oh alright.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that if you had not been as "excited" as you were that afternoon,shortly after being elected to this official position, you may not have donewhat you did by participating in this attack?

MR PENI: WellI do agree that if we were not sent out to act I would not have done it.

CHAIRPERSON: My question really boils down to whether you had given this matter thought inyour mind before you actually took part in the attack or whether you did itinstinctively?

MR PENI: (Answernot interpreted)

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: Mr Chair may I interject, the Interpreter has just used an English word andif she can please translate that word because the applicant is indicating thathe does not understand that word.

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: The word is "instinctively". The Interpreter when interpreting into Xhosa usedthe word "instinctively" as it is, if she could please interpret that word.

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was, on that afternoon did you consider the implications of whatyou were going to do before you did it, or did you merely act instinctively?

MR PENI: Icould say that on that day we obeyed orders from our leaders.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Peni I am going to ask you, I will try to speak Xhosa, he wants to know ifat the time you attacked Miss Biehl did you do it thoughtfully or had you plannedit prior to the act after having been excited by speeches by Mr Mfengu and Mathebula?

MR PENI: Itdid not just happen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Therefore are you saying that you planned it?

MR PENI: Atthe time we were told to act and help APLA to fight and burn down governmentvehicles so that South Africa would be ungovernable. We obeyed the orders.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You did not think it, you understood the order to be as you acted?

MR PENI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Who gave you these orders?

MR PENI: Isaid it was Simpiwe Mfengu and Wanda Mathebula.

JUDGE WILSON: And where are they now?

MR PENI: Theyare around.

JUDGE WILSON: So they are both available to come and give evidence that they ordered you tobehave like this on the day in question, is that so?

MR PENI: Idon't there would be a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the order that was given to you, "go out from this meeting and kill Whitepeople", was that the order that was given to you?

MR PENI: Theorder was that we should make South Africa ungovernable, burn down governmentvehicles and every White person that we come across was an enemy.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Peni was the speech delivered by the two speakers you've alluded to, to theeffect that every White person was an enemy?

MR PENI: Thespeakers said the White man is an enemy.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now what did you understand by The Year of the Great Storm?

MR PENI: WhatI understood is that this is the Year of the Great Storm.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But what did that mean if you were to explain to a person like me who did notunderstand what that slogan stood for?

MR PENI: Itwas an APLA slogan helped by PASO, the APLA meant that that year, that particularyear especially, they were going to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that "Storm" take place?

MR PENI: Iwould say so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Peni, earlier on my brother asked you whether you knew the difference betweena slogan and a policy, and your answer was that you did know the difference,which I personally am not sure I know. Can you tell us what the difference isbetween a slogan and a policy?

MR PENI: Apolicy is a constitution set so that the whole organisation can see what waythe organisation is going to take.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.