Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

AZHAR CACHALIA: And Mr Skosana's shebeen, from the particular place where you were at the sports field, if you came down that road you've just agreed that it is about 50 or 60 metres on your lefthand side on that particular road so it would it's not the direction in which the ANC ran.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: I would not dispute that because I have no knowledge of metres.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Mbatha, asked by Mr Cachalia, forget the distances.  But you've got the hill, the main road that goes up the hill to the top of the settlement.  At the bottom of that hill, or lower down, there's Brown's house, then you've got the sports field as you're going down towards the river.  You've got Magwaza's shop, and then you've got on the other side of the road, the, Skosana's shop or shebeen.  Now, the shooting took place near Brown's house.  When the ANC group fled, did they run towards Skosana's shebeen, or did they up the hill, or did they run in all directions?  What?  Can you just explain how they ran away?

ELIAS MBATHA: They spread towards different directions.  Some of them went up and some of them took different directions. They took all different directions.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Mbatha, what I'm saying to you in this particular regard, is that you had nothing to do with the killing of that particular person outside Skosana's shebeen and there was no reason for you to go past there.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: I had a reason to go past that place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did you have anything to do with the killing of the person that was killed there?

ELIAS MBATHA: I am involved because he was killed by members of the IFP and I'm also a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia's asking did you personally participate in the assault upon that person whose body you saw there?  Personally, yourself?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I did not.

AZHAR CACHALIA: The only activity that you were involved in on that particular day which might have constituted criminal activity was the shooting at the sports field, is that correct with an unlicensed firearm.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I did fire shots.

MR LAX: The question was not that you fired shots.  The questions was, was that, the firing of shots, was that the only criminal activity you were involved in on that day?

ELIAS MBATHA: It was not a criminal act.  I was shooting at these ANC people.

MR LAX: But did you do anything else to the ANC people besides shooting them?

ELIAS MBATHA: Nothing else.

MR LAX: Thank you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Mr Lax.  So, if you had committed any act which might have constituted criminal activity, was the shooting at that place where you might have injured a some people or killed some people, is that right at the sports field between, sorry at the sports field and leave it at that.

ELIAS MBATHA: It is possible people got injured or died because I was shooting at these ANC people.  Yes, that is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What I'm saying is because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think it must be.  He said he only shot at the field.  You don't, he was quite clear, you don't have to spend a lot of time getting him to say what we all know.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Mbatha what I'm saying to that as a result of that you are not asking for amnesty for the murder of the person who was killed at Skosana's shebeen, nor are you asking for the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Cachalia to interpose, but he said he personally was involved in the shooting, and from his evidence that's obviously what we know, but I don't know if he knows about the doctrine of common purpose.  He was convicted on that basis you know, not on he basis that he physically personally himself injured each of the seven injured people and personally shot each of the deceased.  It was a common purpose, so I think that's a bit of an unfair question.  He obviously doesn't know the doctrine of common purpose.  He was convicted of the assault, all the assaults and all the murders, attempted murders.  So on what he says, because he says he only shot at the field, it doesn't exclude us considering his application in respect of the other offences for which he was convicted of.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As the Chairperson pleases.  I will then not pursue that particular matter.  Insofar as Mr Mbatha is concerned you made this particular statement in, on the 6th, sorry 6th of May 1997.  And then there was a previous statement that you made on the 12th of December 1996.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 84.

ELIAS MBATHA: I would not dispute that.  May I please have a look at it.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 83 if the 6th of May, that's the application form, and the one that's date stamped the 12th of December 1996 is page 84.

MR LAX: May I interpose for one second Mr Cachalia.  Mr Mbatha, you must have filled out two application forms.  Is that right?  On two different occasions.

ELIAS MBATHA: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Because when you did the affidavit on the 12th of December 1996 that affidavit must have been attached to a form one.

CHAIRPERSON: It says so on the top, yes.  It's on the top.
...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson the speaker's mike is not activated.

MR LAX: Humble apologies.  It says this, it says at the top this is an affidavit which is an addendum to a form one.  You don't remember signing one application in December 1996 and then later doing another one in May 1997?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes I do remember the 1996 application.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you fill in two applications?

ELIAS MBATHA: The one that I made in 1996 was part of this request to come and appear before the Commission so as to tell the truth.

MR LAX: If you were telling the truth why doesn't that affidavit say anything about what you did?

ELIAS MBATHA: The one affidavit that I made was such that I was not sure whether it would be successful.

CHAIRPERSON: You see he also, also in your application that's on page 77 to 83, the 6th of May one, 97, also makes no mention of you shooting, yourself, actually shooting towards people.

ELIAS MBATHA: It is possible that is not included.  But I knew that I would tell the truth once I come before the Commission as I am doing now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Mbatha, in both this documents that we have in front of us, that is the application from page 77 to 83 and the one on 84 you are telling the truth.  You have just expanded on what you were saying.  Is that what you're saying to us, sir?

ELIAS MBATHA: I would not say it is not the truth, or the truth, 'cause I cannot read.  I don't know what the contents of these applications are.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Perhaps, I'm sorry that we're going to be long-winded again, but, it says that, in your application that you signed on the 6th of May 1997, basically what you are saying is that you only defended yourself.  That is the truth?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes that is the truth.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And in your application, the annexure that we only have here, we don't have the other portion of it, in the previous one you say that, I will read it to you just for completeness sake.  It says that
"...there was a war waged against the IFP the ANC put up posters everywhere even on IFP shacks.  This led to argument between the IFP and the ANC youth."
Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Paragraph 2 says
"...it was announced that the IFP youth brigade and the ANC youth league were in conflict."
Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Would you please repeat that?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Your second paragraph says that it was announced that the IFP youth brigade and the ANC youth league  were in conflict.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I do not remember writing the statement like that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then the third paragraph says
"...the argument about the posters was on Friday the 11th."
Is that correct?

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the question.