Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much for the indication Mr Smiles.  From which direction did the march come - if you look at that sketch, did the march come from Jones Street into George's or did it come down George's - which appears according to the sketch, to be a one-way?   Did this march come down George's Street?

WALTER SMILES: No, Mr de Koker, it did not.  Georges - we are actually speaking of Jones Street where OK is?

PROF DE KOKER: No.  Listen, there's a Jones Street on this sketch and then there's a George Street, that is apparently the big street in front of the building.  Now tell us, from what direction did the march come?

WALTER SMILES: It is the big street.

PROF DE KOKER: Please can you indicate on the sketch, did this march come from?

WALTER SMILES: No, from this side.

PROF DE KOKER: From the direction of the micro tower?

ADV DE JAGER: So, what I'm getting is from Jones Street.  Okay, tell us, in what street is OK?

WALTER SMILES: No, no, it wasn't Jones Street.  I've forgotten the street, I don't know exactly what the street's name was.

PROF DE KOKER: As far as I can understand then the march came past Craven Street and went along George Street right up to the entrance, is that right?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's right.

PROF DE KOKER: And did the march then turn around and return in the same way?

WALTER SMILES: That's correct, Mr de Koker.

PROF DE KOKER: Yesterday you said you threw the hand grenade so that nobody could see you?

WALTER SMILES: That's right.

PROF DE KOKER: But when you threw the hand grenade, the memorandums had already been handed over and the people were turning back and going away.

WALTER SMILES: There was one memorandum - so when they were all going home, then was the time for me to throw the hand grenade.

PROF DE KOKER: Were the people already turning away?

WALTER SMILES: Some were going, some were still coming back.  I can't say that they were all going because I knew I had to wait for all of them to leave.

PROF DE KOKER: But when you threw the hand grenade, were there still people?

WALTER SMILES: The people were there but not a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, can you ask him - please try to clarify because we ran into problems yesterday, you asked him a question and then he said: "ontelbare mense" and it appeared as though we might get confused in to whether you're asking about the presence of people in the building or outside the building.
	So when you ask him about whether there were people, would you please specify whether you're referring to people in the building or in the foyer or the marchers on the pavement or in front of the building.

PROF DE KOKER: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Smiles, when you say that there were still people, are you referring to the people in the procession, the marchers?

PROF DE KOKER: So, some of the marchers were still standing there but some of them had already left.

WALTER SMILES: They were just turning around to leave and then the security man came out.

PROF DE KOKER: So, you didn't wait before throwing the hand grenade until the people had started moving away?

WALTER SMILES: There wasn't a lot of people.

PROF DE KOKER: Some people were standing, some had already turned away but my problem is this, you said you threw the hand grenade so that no-one would see you but there were people standing in front of the building - marchers, and you said that there were other people still wondering around, people who had turned back. How is it possible with all these people around you, to throw a hand grenade so that you wouldn't be seen?

MR TSHOLANKU: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, we don't know if at that particular point in time - as it is phrased, that everybody's eyes were on Mr Smiles at that particular point in time when he threw the hand grenade.  I think the question is misleading Mr Smiles because an impression is created that when he threw the hand grenade at that time - as it is ...[indistinct], everybody else's eyes were on top of him them.  How could he explain that nobody - he threw the hand grenade so that nobody should him at that particular point in time.

CHAIRPERSON: This question that was in fact asked yesterday - well let's go back to hit again, I think he is wanting to know - he wants the witness to explain how it is possible if there were people between him and the building, some of whom would have in fact turned round to move towards him - in fact face him, how is it possible that he could have hoped that he could have thrown that hand grenade without being seen by the people.

MR TSHOLANKU: In that way Mr Chairman, I accept it.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that what you're asking?

PROF DE KOKER: That is quite correct, Mr Chairman, thank you very much for the clarification.
	How was it possible for you to say yesterday, that you threw this hand grenade in such a way that no-one could see you?  Yesterday you said, nobody saw you because everybody was looking at the memos and now you said people were wondering around buying food, going home.  Where you said you were standing and the direction in which the marchers were returning were the same direction, people were walking in your direction.  How could execute this bowling action without anyone seeing you?

WALTER SMILES: Just explain it to me again please, just please explain it to me clearly.

PROF DE KOKER: Yesterday you said you threw the hand grenade in such a way that no-one would see you.

WALTER SMILES: That's right.

PROF DE KOKER: But the way you demonstrated how you threw this hand grenade, it's a very clearly visible movement.  Then you said to me no-one could see you because everyone was looking at the memos.

WALTER SMILES: That's right.

PROF DE KOKER: Now you say, some people were looking at the memos, other people were wondering around buying food and some people already returning in your direction.

WALTER SMILES: A hand grenade is not something you can throw like a stone, you have to lift your hand in order to throw it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Smiles, could you have launched that hand grenade into the building without being seen by people who were immediately around you?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How is that, when you have to lift up your hand in order to throw it?

WALTER SMILES: I did lift my hand.  It was my duty not to be seen, that was all I could do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You think you were not seen?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles, of all the people standing there can you bring anyone who saw you throwing this hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: I explained it now, I had to make sure that I wasn't seen.  How can I find somebody who can testify that they saw me?  I had to do my best not to be seen and that's what I did.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Chairman, the importance of this information is that it is highly likely that there were persons who saw ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr de Koker, but that is part of your argument.  I can understand if you say it is possible that people might have seen him, since people were trying to turn around, people were coming on, people were moving back - taking all that into consideration, it is possible but that is an argument that you will have to put before us.
	The witness won't be able to take us further, he is saying he threw it in such a manner that he wasn't seen.  Now, one can take it in argument to decide whether it's possible or not.  I think the witness is not going to bring us any further because he believes he did it in such a manner that he wasn't detected.