Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to say, Mr Chairman, because I am not sure of the timeframe.

GEORGE BIZOS: I have given you the timeframe, Sir.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry.

GEORGE BIZOS: Between the 21st of October 1992 and the 10th of April 1993, did you  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Please listen to the question.  Did you or did you not attend a caucus meeting of the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to answer that question, Mr Chairman, for the simple reason that people who are aware of the procedures in Parliament, in any case, Mr Chairman, will be aware of the fact that to have a Parliamentary session in October of the year, would be an extraordinary session.  It wouldn't be the normal operation of Parliament.  Parliament then only once again, Mr Chairman, is prorogued in January or February, I believe, the opening of Parliament took place, and after that, Mr Chairman, there could have been a possibility of one meeting that I could have attended.  But there is also a possibility that I didn't, I couldn't attend a meeting because I wasn't there when Parliament was in session. I am not sure of those dates.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's try another way.  Did you attend any meetings of the executive of which you were a member of the Conservative Party between the 21st of October 1992 and the 10th of April 1993?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Once again, Mr Chairman, I can't recall, because of the overlap in President's Council's sessions and Parliamentary sessions, and if my memory serves me correctly, I was elected to the executive of the Transvaal some time towards the end of 1992.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, here was a wonderful opportunity to make a maiden speech on the executive, by saying how could - how could my colleague, Du Plessis, mislead Parliament and mislead the people of the country when in truth and in fact, the war has begun, how dare he insult Koos Botha in that manner and how dare he deny that we are in a war situation and that we can permit acts of violence?  Was that part of your maiden speech at the executive towards the end of 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, to the best of my memory at no time have I heard Mr Du Plessis saying that we weren't in a war situation. There is nothing in his speech which indicates that.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you choose to place your own interpretation on the word, the clear words of Hansard and say that it was not a condemnation of violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it was a reference to speeches in the past by Dr Treurnicht.  It was not referring to a current statement of Dr Treurnicht and I don't know when the statement that he is referring to in his speech, was made, but I am quite sure that it was made before October 1992.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now has it not come  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for my own information, after October 1992 were there sessions of the President's Council, and if so, could you tell me when the President's Council normally met, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman, because there was no normal dates.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: They would set the programme and then we would know that we would be sitting from this day to that day, for two weeks.  That was the only thing that we knew that we would be there for a period of two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no calendar, no prearranged calendar of the sitting of the President's Council?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, there was, Mr Chairman, but it was never run in conjunction with the sittings of Parliament. It was, the President's Council was seen as a separate entity.

CHAIRPERSON: So then, if there was a calendar of the President's Council, you would be able to tell us when the sittings were?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly, Mr Chairman, I would.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have that information with you now?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Unfortunately not, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we will make arrangements, we will research that if Mr Derby-Lewis and his legal representatives don't.
	Mr Derby-Lewis  - no, you can talk to your counsel before I put my next question. I don't want to stop you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you want to talk to him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my thing is going on and off,  I just want to ...  Mr Chairman, it is highly difficult to concentrate on what one is doing when these - the volume goes on and off all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: That is extremely unsatisfactory. I realise that Mr Derby-Lewis, and I think that it should be put right. It isn't fair that you have to wrestle and juggle with this and at the same time pay attention to what is being asked.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now may I ask this, why are you wearing the earphones, Mr Derby-Lewis, don't you understand my English?  (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have difficulty hearing what Mr Bizos is saying at times, because he doesn't talk out of his mouth, he talks within his mouth, and it comes over to me very blurred. (Laughter).  It is only when he speaks for the audience that he seems to be very clear in his statements.  (Laughter).

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, this is the first complaint I had of people not being able to hear me in 43 years.  (Laughter andloud applause).

JUDGE WILSON: Well, Mr Bizos, I have never known you to speak with your hand in front of your mouth, so often, for 40 years, as you have been doing this morning.  (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  (Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Can that be put right, Mr Derby-Lewis' earphone, can that be put right please.

JUDGE WILSON: Hasn't he got a new one?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, I didn't hear that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am told that you have got a replacement. Is it correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have now, Mr Chairman, and it seems to be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Just stop immediately there are any difficulties.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I am just trying to locate the actual Hansard page where Mr Du Plessis spoke, amongst this batch that Mr Bizos gave us.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have the, I have now the reference, it is on page 12806.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: What is it that you want to draw the Committee's attention to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It has gone off again. Pardon?

GEORGE BIZOS: What is it that you want to draw the Committee's attention to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I want to draw the Committee's attention, Mr Chairman, to the following paragraph, where Mr Du Plessis is now speaking and he says that the reason why Koos Botha blames the CP, is because Koos Botha was at the Voortrekker Monument on the 26th of May 1990. He then goes further to say
"My honourable leader has said repeatedly...."
Obviously, Mr Chairman, that is a reference to past statements, and in my opinion the statement by Dr Treurnicht at Paardekraal overrules anything that he may have said in terms of Mr Du Plessis' reference regarding violence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, just repeat that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, where Mr Du Plessis in his speech was attacking Mr Koos Botha, he attacked him on the basis that Mr Botha used as justification for his deeds the speech by Dr Treurnicht at the Voortrekker Monument on the 26th of May 1990.  And he said here
"My honourable leader ..."
He said further -
"My honourable leader has said repeatedly that nothing gives an individual the right to commit crimes or misdeeds."
But he is obviously, Mr Chairman, referring to statements that my late leader had said, at earlier dates, and as far as I am concerned, the speech at Paardekraal on the 10th of October overruled any repeated statements that the individual doesn't have the right to commit crimes or misdeeds, because Treurnicht was clearly speaking war.