Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

MR MOKOENA: I don't have any knowledge.  They were a gang which were known mostly by their activities ranging from pick-pocketing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have a name, were they known by any name?

MR MOKOENA: Just as to myself I took them as criminal gang.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nzeku states that the members who applied for amnesty - I refer to page 70, paragraph 3 of his affidavit, Mr Mokoena, Maumakwe, van Rooyen and Morupisi used to be members of the ANC Youth League but at the time of the commission of the offence were no longer members but belonged to a break-away group, is that correct or isn't it correct?

MR MOKOENA: It's not correct, I was still a member of the ANC at the time of that attack.

ADV DE JAGER: At that stage he was the General Secretary of the ANC, for Carltonville.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, Mr Nzeku was the General Secretary.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn't he know or could ascertain who were members at the time?  Was there a member list or something?

MR MOKOENA: I don't know how to answer to that because now Mr Nzeku was in the above leadership, we did have the then General Secretary of the Youth League of which is Mr Cassius Mahuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Just spell that name again.

MR MOKOENA: Cassius: C-A-S-S-I-U-S, surname: Mahuma
M-A-H-U-M-A.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he was the General Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he?

MR MOKOENA: Where was he?

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his office or where did he work from as General Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: He was within the Executive Committee, they didn't have an office at the time but he was working alongside with my co-accused, who was the then Secretary Organiser of the ANC Youth League.

ADV DE JAGER: After you stabbed the deceased and after he was killed, did you come back and report to your organisation what has happened?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course.  What we did on Monday the 9th of September, because on Sunday, the day of the attack, it was said that the comrades secretary was not present as the then ...[indistinct] committee of the Youth League had attended a West Rand general meeting of the ANC Youth League at Krugersdorp, so on Monday the matter did reach the entire committee and Mr Nzeku too who was at the time having an office at National Union of Mine Workers offices.
	I did go there by myself, as the comrades did contact him before.  I got there - as I was employed, after work I did go to the office the National Union of Mine Workers.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you speak to Mr Nzeku?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he says in his affidavit further in paragraph 5
"I would attribute their action in killing the two deceased as a criminal act of revenge and without any political motivation of which I am aware of"
Did you tell him why you killed the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Just as I'm trying to give the full truth to the Commission, I explained it that way and each and every one of the members involved in the Executive Committee ...[inaudible] deceased on the 8th of September.

ADV DE JAGER: And after you'd been arrested and at your trial, did you ask for legal assistance from the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, as to what has been reported, actually the then General Secretary, Mr Cassius Mahuma  before we stood trial at the Supreme Court, but after we had been arrested by the Westonaria Murder and Robbery Unit, we pleaded for a bail application but we were denied bail by the court until such time that we found the attorneys from Janse van Rensburg, Janse van Rensburg attorneys from Westonaria, with the help of our families.
	We then appealed to the Youth League to help us  since we were not in a position to be able to afford the costs of the advocates to stand trial in the Supreme Court.  They did by him, the then Secretary General at the time, who gave us the application form of the Legal Aid for legal representation.  We did fill in the applications but nothing came to our side ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I'm not asking about Legal Aid, I'm asking whether you've asked the ANC to assist you financially in your defence, because as members of the ANC you acted, or of the Youth League, you acted in searching or doing something about the deceased.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did ask for help, more especially the help to get the proper representation before court.  According to Mr Secretary, the only way they could have helped us was for them to get us the advocates to stand trial with us at the Supreme Court and in that way they supplied us with the application forms of the legal aid.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  Do you know Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I know comrade Ramagotedi.

ADV DE JAGER: He was the Secretary of the Youth League at that stage, in September 1991, of ANSIL.

MR MOKOENA: I know Mr Ramagotedi as one of the Executive Committee members but the guy whom I know as the Secretary was Mr Cassius Mahuma.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he's also made an affidavit, I think you must be aware of it, it appears on page 72 of the papers, and in paragraph 6 and 7 he says
"As far as my knowledge goes, the murders they committed were not politically motivated"
And then in paragraph 7:
"The ANC also refused to arrange and pay for their defence"
Did they tell you why they refused to arrange and pay for your defence?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I won't say they refused because if they refused they would not have given us the application forms of the Legal Aid.  We tried to persuade that this matter be given the proper representation but only what they could have done that time, they gave us the application forms of the Legal Aid.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any time break away and belong to another group, at the time of this trouble?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all, I was still a member and I'm still willing to be a member for my entire life, of the ANC Youth League and after then of the ANC.

MS GCABASHE: Can you just help me understand the way the ANC Youth League functioned as a structure, how it related to the ANC, the mother body, as you understood it?

MR MOKOENA: Okay what I can say is that the youth, as during the time of the struggle had played a major role in trying to organise and educate each other amongst any other thing that can maybe destroy the aims of reaching what the broad aim of the ANC as the mother body.  To my point of view, the ANC Youth League played the major role in recruiting and mobilising the entire youth with the aims and the ideals of the ANC.

MS GCABASHE: To what extent were you then accountable to the mother body, the ANC, for the things you decided to do?  What did the mother body expect from you?

MR MOKOENA: Actually during that time, during the then situation of the offences, the Youth League was trying its level best to establish or to implement a peace settlement amongst those who were killing each other during the time, and to finally have a formally launched ANC Youth League branch at Kutsaong.

MS GCABASHE: Yes, but what I really want to know is, were you operating fairly independently of the ANC itself, in terms of the way you conducted yourselves?  You know you had the ANC Youth League, you had the Women's League, then you had the mother body, so I'm just trying to understand how you related to the mother body, nevermind what the things you actually did but how did you have to answer to them for the things you were doing?

CHAIRPERSON: Organisationally.