Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

LOTHAR NEETHLING: From 1964, that's correct.

MR VALLY: You are aware of the act?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Oh yes, we worked with it every day.  We caught people every day pushing drugs, giving it to the kids.

MR VALLY: So you are an expert in that area?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I wouldn't say I'm an expert at law, but I'm an expert in saying that we knew that when people brought in the evidence, we never collected any evidence, these were the people from the Police, the operation Police.  I'm not an operation Policeman, I've never arrested a man in my life, and for God's sake, I hope I never have to.

MR VALLY: Did Dr Basson have the necessary exemption in terms of the Medicines and related substances Act?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I don't know.  What I know is that doctors get away with murder, literally, in the sense that they can have anything in their possession, they can have morphine, they can have anything which is schedule 6, 7, 8 or 9 without possessing any paper.  That is the strength or the power of that medical profession.  I never queried his bona fides, I never thought that Dr Basson would provide or sell or use one gram of that himself.

MR VALLY: And you believe now that he did do that?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Yes, I still believe it.  I don't think he used one microgram of any of those substances or sold any of that.  Why would he do that?

MR VALLY: Well, let's come back to my question.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: What was your question?

MR VALLY: The question is this, that as a very senior Policemen and as the expert on these drugs, because that was your field ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Expert on the drugs does not mean expert on exemption of the law.

MR VALLY: Yes, I accept that.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Surely you would consider it of importance that a person you are putting in that dangerous position, remember with the quantities you are talking about, the person would not only be charged with possession, he would be charge with, tell us,

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Possession, simply possession, it's in the boot, it's in the back of his car, it's three cartons of tablets ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: No, I agree that you're not an expert on the law, but he would be charged with dealing.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Me?

MR VALLY: Not you.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: The medical man?

MR VALLY: That's right.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Never, why?

MR VALLY: Because, he's transferring it from place A to place B.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally is there anything that he is going to tell, I can quite appreciate, but he's not a lawyer, he possibly doesn't differentiate between what constitutes possession and when does possession become dealing, what quantities do you ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Can I ask that question very briefly.  Based on the fact that Gen Neethling was in charge of the Police laboratories ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was not in charge of SANAB.  Maybe people in SANAB might have known what constitutes possession, quantities ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: No, the fact is that the certificate which had to be produced to courts, no 1 had to confirm the substance and no 2 the quantities, and a gram or a couple of grams this way or that way made a difference between 5 or 10 years in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, I will allow it only to the extent that it is necessary for you to put something on the record, I don't really think it's going to take us anywhere, unless you indicate to me what objective you're seeking to establish.

MR VALLY: Certainly.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: If I can put it on record, that's my attitude as well, Mr Chairman, I don't really think anything turns on this.  I differ from Mr Vally's view on the law and I have a serious problem with his legal argument in getting to that, but I would rather suggest he put what he wishes to put, get the response so we can proceed.  We don't need to waste further time on this, so I will abide the decision, I think that is the way that we should handle the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't be tempted into responding, I can see you are - just put your hand across you mouth and let's get on with it, I'm serious.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: The one question you allowed me to ask on that issue before I go on, Mr Chairperson, you're aware that when you gave certificates to courts regarding drugs which was sent to the Police laboratories, that you also would have to give the quantities found, because it is relevant, (a) to the charge, and (b) to the possible sentencing.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: With regards to dagga, yes, but for other schedule 6, 7, 8, yes, should you be caught there would have been a statement, it's as easy as that.  A SANAB person is always in private clothes.  He walks along with a lot of evidence before he gets to the laboratory, and nobody catches him.  I never thought that a doctor, a registered doctor, would be caught with any substance which can be used for the improvement of humanity, never ever.

MR VALLY: I don't know about classifying mandrax as something which will ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, you don't understand.  The purpose was that it to be used to get away ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: We'll come back to that, okay, I'll pursue that.  I put to you, that you did not concern yourself with the fact that the possession of those drugs, the mandrax, the LSD, the dagga, by Dr Basson, whether that fact of his possession of those drugs was legal or illegal was of no concern of yours.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Not at all, because I had my instruction from the Minister who told me, that this is what the people requires from you, can you assist them, and I said yes Minister, thank you Minister, goodbye Minister.  That's what you say to a Minister.

MR VALLY: If the Minister ordered you to murder someone, would you?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, no and Louis le Grange was not that type of person.

MR VALLY: Because you knew it was an illegal act

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, it would have been against my grain to kill somebody, I've never killed anybody.

MR VALLY: Not because it's illegal?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, it had nothing to do with illegality, what I understand here, and I can see from the evidence I read in the newspapers, don't believe what is written in the newspaper, if that is true what is written there, we should start by saying I am a conservative Afrikaner brought up in the Dutch Reform Church, and I don't believe in murder.  Is that good enough?

MR VALLY: I hear what you're saying.  Gen Neethling, did you ever enquire about the control mechanisms from a security point of view?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Not at all.  Not of any nature with regarding the substances I provided to Dr Basson.  After they've my office, it was put in his motor car, I never made any enquiries.  I asked what was happening with the mandrax product, how far are you in developing those things into a powder, and they said they had problems getting it up in their ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Into their, sorry, the interpreter cut short, you said they had problems?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: They had problems to make it kind of into a powder form to get it up into the air.

MR VALLY: You are aware that mandrax is a massive social problem in our society.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I know it is a serious - being seriously abused during weekends, yes.

MR VALLY: You are aware that there is a massive crime problem in this country which can be directly linked in some instances to the proliferation of drug lords who control the sourcing and selling of mandrax amongst others?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It's worldwide, yes there was a large conference, I'm aware of the problem.

MR VALLY: We're talking about mandrax.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It's worldwide.

MR VALLY: We've got the unique situation where mandrax is a drug of abuse in South Africa, on a proportion far exceeding any other country in the world.  Would you agree with that?