Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I am Judge Pillay and I want to ask my colleagues and the various representatives, to do the same and announce themselves on the record, for the purposes of identification on the record.

JUDGE POTGIETER: My name is Denzil Potgieter.

ADV SIBANYONI: I am J.B. Sibanyoni, a member of the Committee.

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.

MR MGXAJI: I am Sitembele Mgxaji, representing the victims, specifically the Mapipa family.

MR MALUSI: I am Tembekile Malusi, representing the victims with regard to the death of the APLA 5 in Port St Johns.

MR MGIDLANA: I am Tanwasika Mgidlana for the applicants in respect of the incidents that took place at Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: For the benefit of the public, I am told that the translations are as follows - on channel 1, it would be translated into Sotho, channel 2, English and channel 3, Xhosa.   Yes, Mr Mgidlana.

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, will begin by indicating that I have been instructed by one of the applicants who appears in the bundle of documents, who is applicant number 6, Pumulele Civilian Hermans, who is sitting next to me, that he had indicated in his application that he was accused of being involved in the killing of the APLA 5 as well as the killing of the late Mr Mapipa.  He indicates that he was not there and I am instructed therefore to withdraw the application in respect of himself regarding those incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: All of the incidents?

MR MGIDLANA: All of those incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you have explained to him what the implications thereof are?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, I did Judge.  I did.  As it turns out, he says that he was not there at all, it is just that he has been cited criminally in respect of those incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hermans, have you heard what your Attorney has said?

MR HERMANS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what he has told us?

MR HERMANS: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied with what he told us?

MR HERMANS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand him to say that you are withdrawing your application in respect of all the incidents which we are going to discuss in this application?

MR HERMANS: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Then your application is then withdrawn.  You are excused.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you Chairperson, I will then call Mfanelo Dan Matshaya who appears as applicant 5 in the bundle of documents to come over and take the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, let us just get something straight, as I understand it having read the papers, we are going to discuss in the course of this hearing, three incidents, are we agreed?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, we are agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: One of them being a shoot-out at which at some time, members of the South African Police Services were involved?

MR MGIDLANA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The second one is an attack in which five members of APLA were killed?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying that is the order in which we are doing it, I am just identifying the incidents.  What is the third one?

MR MGIDLANA: The third one is the killing of the late Mr Mapipa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Which one are we going to start with?

MR MGIDLANA: The one that I intend starting with Judge, is the one involving the shoot-out at the Voter Education Workshop at a high school, which as you indicated, also involves the involvement of the, also the involvement of the police as well as the Transkei Defence Force members.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would we find this applicant's application, on what page?

MR MGIDLANA: It is on pages 57 to 66 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: May I proceed Judge?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I am sorry.  Mr Matshaya, what language would you prefer to use?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I am going to use Xhosa.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.  Yes, Mr Mgidlana.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you Judge.  Mr Matshaya, can you give us your full names and where you reside?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I am Mfanelo Dan Matshaya, residing in 31 Spruit Street in Umtata in the former Transkei.

MR MGIDLANA: Are you a member of any political organisation or State organ?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I am a member of the African National Congress.

MR MGIDLANA: Since when have you been a member of the African National Congress?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Since 1980.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you a member of any of the organs of the African National Congress?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, I was an Umkhonto weSizwe member.

MR MGIDLANA: Since when did you join Umkhonto weSizwe?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Since 1982.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you undergo any military training as a member of MK?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I got military training in Angola in 1984 and I proceeded to Yugoslavia in 1985.

MR MGIDLANA: When did you return to South Africa?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I came back in 1987.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you continue being a member of the ANC as well as Umkhonto weSizwe?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, I continued.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, of your fellow applicants, were they also members of the ANC or any of them?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: One of them, they were all ANC members sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and any of them trained, members of MK trained?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Only one of them which is Mr Mdlulwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he trained?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, he was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know where he was trained so that we could just finalise that point?  Do you know where he was trained?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I do not know, but I just only met him in Angola.   As to where he did his further training, I do not know.

MR MGIDLANA: It is common cause that the ANC was unbanned in 1990, you recall that?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: That is correct sir.

MR MGIDLANA: And after its unbanning, where were you based?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I was based here in the Transkei.

MR MGIDLANA: And did you continue with your activities as a member of MK?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Please explain your question.

MR MGIDLANA: What I mean, were you as a trained member of MK, were you sometimes called upon to do some work on behalf of the organisation?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You know why you are here today?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, I am aware sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us in respect of the shoot-out at the school, at the Workshop, what happened there?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: At that time, I was in the Security Branch of the ANC in Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was that.  When was that?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: It was in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Myself and comrade Dumisa Mdlulwa, we were on duty on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: As what?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: As security officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We got a report from the ANC office, or rather an order to go to St Johns, where there was a Voter Education that was going on and there has been a shooting.

MR MGIDLANA: From whom did you get that report?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: It was from our Head, Joe Jongile.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you proceed to Port St Johns?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We left Umtata, myself and comrade Mdlulwa and a third comrade that we found at the office, which was comrade Zukhuru.

CHAIRPERSON: He is not one of the applicants?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No, I haven't seen him here.

MR MGIDLANA: Was this Zukhuru his - what are his full names?  Is Zukhuru his full name or one of his name or is this a pseudonym?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I do not know him that well.  Commander Joe Jongile would be the one who could give us those details.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR MGIDLANA: And then what did you use to travel to Port St Johns, did you use public transport of private transport?