Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may proceed with your next applicant.

ADV LOURENS: I call then Madoda Tisana.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tisana, please stand up.  Give us your full names.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Madoda Stanford Tisana.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: (Duly sworn in, states).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.  You have been properly sworn in.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Tisana, could you say how old you are please, for the record?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I am 29 years old.

ADV LOURENS: Where were you born?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: In Mbekweni.

ADV LOURENS: And did you, have you lived there your whole life?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, I lived there all my life.

ADV LOURENS: Did you go to school?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Till what standard were you in school?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Standard five.

ADV LOURENS: Have you ever trained to do any kind of job?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Besides on the school holidays?

ADV LOURENS: Yes.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I would get a job on the school holidays.

ADV LOURENS: And when you finished at school did you carry on working?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: No, I would go during the school holidays only.  I never worked again except for the school holidays.

ADV LOURENS: Now, were you a member of a political organisation in 1985?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Could you say which political organisation that was?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I was a member of UDF.

ADV LOURENS: Now, were you a member of PAYCO?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I was a member of the United Democratic Front, UDF.

ADV LOURENS: Were you a member, not a member, are you saying then that you were not a member of PAYCO?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I was a member of UDF.

ADV LOURENS: Were you an office bearer in the UDF?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: No, I was just a member.

ADV LOURENS: Now, you heard the evidence of your other two applicants about the conditions in Mbekweni in the 80's, up to 1985.  Do you agree with that evidence?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, I do.

ADV LOURENS: Now, on the 15th of April 1985 were you with these other two applicants?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Could you explain to the Committee what took place on that day, how it is that you came to meet with them and then what happened after that.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Under the situation in Mbekweni in the township in 1985 there were AZAPO and SADF.  We were not happy with the SADF and the police in the community.  We then decided to find weapons so that we can protect ourselves and protect the community.  While we were still discussing this, Nelson Sono came with the information of this farm.  We decided to go to that farm to look for weapons.  I found Max and we explained to him about the report concerning the weapons.

ADV LOURENS: Can I just stop you there.  When you talk about Max are you talking about Philemon Maxam?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Please carry on.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: We then went to that farm as my, as the two applicants have explained.  We met the owner of the farm asking for a job.  He said that he did not have anything to offer and we went inside as Max has already explained.

ADV LOURENS: Before you proceed ...

JUDGE WILSON: Before you go on, can I ask a question which has worried me with the other two witnesses.  Did the owner of the farm see you going inside to his farm building?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, because we met him at the gate.  He was driving a car and we went in the farm.

JUDGE WILSON: Did the farmer drive away from the gate?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: We went inside the yard where Maxam asked water to the woman.  When this woman was giving Maxam water I grabbed this woman and she screamed and I was trying to explain to her what we were doing there.  After that there was a gunshot.  We went inside the house.

ADV LOURENS: What did you do when you got inside the house?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: When we got inside the house we searched the house.  I took an agent case and a jewellery box.  We then ran in different directions.  I heard about the shooting of the gardener while I was in prison, because I was dizzy at the time.  This happened unexpectedly.  We did not expect people to be shot, but it just happened.

ADV LOURENS: Did you have a firearm with you that day?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: No, I did not.

ADV LOURENS: Sorry, just to go back a little bit.  What do you, what can you tell the Committee about your knowledge of the Tambo text that Maxam referred to in his evidence?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: The Tambo document, we got it from Maxam.  It was explaining the situation in the township during 1985 and 1986.  It was explaining how we can get weapons so that we can defend and protect the community at the time of oppression.  We had a right, according to this document, to go to a white, to the white peoples' home to break in and get weapons, but not to kill.

ADV LOURENS: Yes, you speak about groups of protection in your statement.  What, in the township itself - could you explain to the Committee what this group, protection group would be, what its aim would be?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Group of protection.  Can you please explain this?

ADV LOURENS: You said in your statement on page 29,
"We were put in groups of protection".

CHAIRPERSON: Let him have a, I think it fair, let him have a look at that statement, please.  Let him see it so that he knows what you are talking about.

ADV LOURENS: On page 29.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: On page 29?

ADV LOURENS: Yes, in 10(b).

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: 10(b).

CHAIRPERSON: Let him understand that that is a translation of what (indistinct).

ADV LOURENS: That is the translation of what was written in the Xhosa.  Otherwise you can look at 10(b) on page 25 where it is written in Xhosa.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: 10(b).

ADV LOURENS: Could you explain to the Committee what a protection group is, that is referred to there?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: It was UDF, PAYCO and the ANC, because we were working together.  We were against AZAPO and SADF together with South African Police.

ADV LOURENS: And it, is it these groups that needed weapons?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, we as UDF and PAYCO members, we were looking for weapons.

ADV LOURENS: Now, just before I carry on, there seemed to have been about six to eight people going to Vlakkeland on the 15th of April 1986 including the three of you.  Is that correct?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Had you people, these persons going to Vlakkeland, had they ever done anything in a group like this before or the same people in a group before?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Not all of us.  Some of us in that group were together in certain actions.

ADV LOURENS: But you had not worked together regularly as a group, as this particular group?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Apart from Maxam, the others were working with us.  It was the first time Maxam was together with us.

ADV LOURENS: Now, you heard Mr Ndinisa talk about the items that were stolen from the farmhouse, from Vlakkeland.  Was his evidence in that regard correct, that what you took, the jewellery case and a briefcase?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Now, could you explain to the Committee what, in your own words, what you did with that stuff that you took and why you took it?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: As I was searching the house I did not find any weapon, as we were looking for weapons, but I just decided that if I can take this, the jewellery I can be able to exchange the jewellery for weapons.  I then took an agent case and the jewellery box, but while we were running away I left the agent case behind.  I took a jewellery box with me and the money.

ADV LOURENS: Is it correct that you were in control of the money?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is correct.