Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR SHONGWE: Thereafter, Mr Mchebe and Mr Mbele arrived.   Lepele arrived with a rope, together with some comrades from Khumalo section.   They gave us that rope to tie them up.  They gave me the other rope and Lefu was given the other one.

UNKNOWN: Yes, what did you do with the rope?

MR SHONGWE: They said, "Tie up these boys".

UNKNOWN: What did you do with the rope?

UNKNOWN: We tied them up, because our commander, Mchebe, issued an order, we did not waste a minute.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: After tying them up, an order was issued once more by the commander, he said, "Take them out of the shack".

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: He gave me an AK47 rifle.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: He said, "All of you will operate.   Drive them to the veld".

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: We drove them to the veld, sir.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: Some comrades were throwing stones.   Well, I don't remember their names.

UNKNOWN: Throwing stones at who?

MR SHONGWE: They were throwing stones to these boys who were tied up.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: We drove them to a veld.   On arrival at the veld, an order was issued out by the commander, he said they must sit down.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: He shot at them four times.   He then issued out an order that we must also shoot.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: We executed that order, we shot at them.

UNKNOWN: Did you shoot specific people, or did you shoot in general?

MR SHONGWE: We were shooting in general.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: Whilst shooting, the commander ordered us to stop and those who had pangas, axes and assegaais were ordered to finish them off.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: They did as they were told, and thereafter they reported that they are finished their work and the commander said we must go back to the township.   We left together with the commander and we headed for block F, then the commander said to us, he said Kenny must give him his gun, then Kenny said to him, "But the gun is empty, there are no bullets left", that's Rooivark, that's Armoed, sir.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: And it was not true, there were still bullets in the gun, and I said to him, "No, mine is still loaded".   He then took my gun.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying that there were still bullets in the AK47 which Kenny had?

MR SHONGWE: Kenny's gun was empty, Kenny's gun was empty, sir.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: He then took my gun, together with Mr Mvembe, called Ramabele, got into one shack.   After a few minutes, we heard gunshots twice.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: They came out, they came to us and they said, "Let us go".   We then left together with them.   We met a boy called Mtabang at C.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: We asked him to show us where the other boys stayed.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: He pointed out the places until we kicked the door and we were inside, but there was nobody in.   We searched, looking for what was inside.   We did not find anybody at the other shacks.

UNKNOWN: Is there any other person that you found during your search?

MR SHONGWE: Nobody, sir.

UNKNOWN: Did you find any items at those shacks?

MR SHONGWE: No sir, we didn't find anything.

UNKNOWN: Did you find any goods during the search?

MR SHONGWE: Goods belonging to who?   I don't understand your question?   Goods belonging to the owners of the shack or which goods are you referring to, sir?

UNKNOWN: Did you see any goods, regardless of the owner?

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Shongwe is trying to clarify from you is, what goods are you referring to?   Because he wouldn't know whose goods they are, (indistinct) at the other shack?

UNKNOWN: Did you find any goods which you thought did not belong to them?

MR SHONGWE: No.

UNKNOWN: You found their goods?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What goods were they?

MR SHONGWE: Clothing, sir, video machines, television sets, and so on.   There were car engines in there.

UNKNOWN: Do you know if those goods indeed belonged to them, like they bought them?

MR SHONGWE: I would not have the certainty, I found the goods in their shack, so it must have belonged to them.

UNKNOWN: Were you suspicious as to how they acquired them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, but how many times must a witness tell you that he had no idea who they belonged to, he found them at their shack and he assumed that they must have been theirs?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.   And from there, where did you go to?

MR SHONGWE: We then left for block A.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: We then got into this other house, I just forget the boy's name who stayed there.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: We found his mother at home.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: His mother told us that he left the previous night, she has not seen him.   We then released Mtabang.  We also dispersed.

UNKNOWN: Do you know why these people were captured and killed?

MR SHONGWE: I have (indistinct), I have an indication as to why were they killed.   They were killed because they killed Blanko and Bulelwa.

UNKNOWN: Were you told that that was the reason?

MR SHONGWE: I was not told, but when I arrived in the morning, many people were complaining about the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko, that is the reason maybe why they were killed.

UNKNOWN: Why did you personally participate in the capturing and killing?

MR SHONGWE: Because of our commander's order.

UNKNOWN: Was it your tradition in the SDU to question commands?

MR SHONGWE: There was nothing to say to the commander, if an order was issued out, you would not stand against that order, you were expected to execute that order.

UNKNOWN: Were you not allowed to inquire as to the reason for the command?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, Mr Shongwe has just told us that once the commander had issued the order, that's the end of the matter, the order must be carried out.

UNKNOWN: Could you refuse to carry out that order?

MR SHONGWE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: If you did, what would happen?

MR SHONGWE: you would be killed.

UNKNOWN: Before these people were killed, did you know if they belonged to an organisation?

MR SHONGWE: I knew.

UNKNOWN: Which ones?

MR SHONGWE: We patrolled together as SDU's.

UNKNOWN: Which organisation did you know them to belong?

MR SHONGWE: All of us were members of the Youth League.

UNKNOWN: And if you were all members of the same organisation, why were they killed?

MR SHONGWE: It's because they killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

UNKNOWN: Did you know of any other activities they were involved in besides the issue of Blanko and Bulelwa?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, there are incidents.   They were looting the tuckshops, they were shooting at the taxis, they were hijacking people's cars, then selling their parts.   During the patrol time, they killed people, that is at night.

UNKNOWN: Did you...(tape ends)

MR SHONGWE: It was part of my duty, I was an operator, I was protecting the community, so I perceived that as part of my work.

UNKNOWN: How was the community going to be protected by that execution of your duties?

MR SHONGWE: They were criminals in the community.

UNKNOWN: Besides them having killed Blanko and Bulelwa and also being criminals, is there any other reason, anything as that you heard against them?

MR SHONGWE: I have mentioned the things they did.   Before that incident of killing Bulelwa and Blanko, long before that, it was on a Friday ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: ...it was a Friday when they removed their goods from their shacks.   Those were the shacks situated in block D.

UNKNOWN: And what did they do with their goods?

MR SHONGWE: They were removing them to the other side.   Maybe it was an indication that something was to follow thereafter.

UNKNOWN: Yes, besides the removal of their things, what else did they do, indicating that something was to follow?

MR SHONGWE: They drove their stolen cars into the ditch.  After that, they just left one car.

UNKNOWN: Yes?