Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

MR HOLE: In your application, Sir you make mention of the fact that the Ciskei Government was seen as being too lenient on the African National Congress and its allies.

J W MAKOM: Yes Sir.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR HOLE	41	MR MAKOM

MR HOLE: May the Committee bear with me.  I am reading from page number 2.  In your affidavit Sir, you also mention that there was a constant change of Commissioners of Police in the Ciskei hierarchy at the time.  Can you expand more on this?

J W MAKOM: Police commissioners were being changed frequently in Ciskei at that time because there was an unrest and there was a feeling that the agents have already infiltrated the Ciskei.  And this led to the interchange because nobody seems to be trusted.

MR HOLE: On page three of your aaffidavit, starting from paragraph no 13, you make mention of the fact that after Gen Sebe was put in custody he was replaced by Gen Makuse who was also removed in March the following year and replaced by Gen Zozi.   And Zozi removed again six months later and replaced by Brig Takane.  In February the follow year Brig Takane was removed and succeeded by Gen Makuzi.  Is this what was taking place in Ciskei at the time?

J W MAKOM: Yes it is so Sir.

MR HOLE: In other words, nobody could be trusted even in the Security Police and in the Security Forces themselves?

J W MAKOM: Yes, I will add on the fact mentioned by Mr Thoba that even Mr Gendani was charged, because at that time there was not even trust by the Government even on high ranking officers.

MR HOLE: You have read Mr Thoba's affidavit and in there is reference to the trial of Mr Mlungisi Genda.  In that annexure,
the particulars given by the State alleged that Mr Genda was communicating with Mr Charles Sebe and he made copies of certain documents for him. 	Now Mr Chairman I am referring to Annexure Q, of the first applicant's affidavit, on page 80 of the bundle by Mr Thoba.

J W MAKOM: Yes Sir it is so.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR HOLE	42	MR MAKOM

MR HOLE: You confirm also that Mr Genda was brutalised by members of the Elite Unit?

J W MAKOM: Yes it is so Sir.

MR HOLE: Do you recall what treatment he was given?

J W MAKOM: I was not one of those members but I just heard that he was beaten by those four Captains.  And there was a court procedure because of that where they were sentenced and their fine was paid by the State.  If I can remember clearly each of them was fined R600,00 but that was paid by the State.

MR HOLE: To bring you back to the Elite Unit Sir, you say in your statement that the Elite Unit reported directly to the President of the country.

J W MAKOM: Yes, it is so.

MR HOLE: Can you tell us who was the head of the Elite Unit?

J W MAKOM: It was Kwane Sebe, son of the late President.  He was heading the Elite Unit.

MR HOLE: In other words reported to his father about the activities of his unit?

J W MAKOM: Yes it is so, Sir.

MR HOLE: And some of the chief enemies of the Ciskei state were in fact brothers of the President, is that correct?

J W MAKOM: Yes it is so, Sir.

MR HOLE: For instance Mr Charles Sebe and Mr Namba Sebe and
their sons?

J W MAKOM: Yes Sir.

MR HOLE: You allude to an attack on the home of President Sebe, sometime during 1987.

J W MAKOM: Yes Sir.

MR HOLE: And you say that troops of the Transkei Defence Force were used in this attack?

J W MAKOM: Yes Sir, it is so.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR HOLE	43	MR MAKOM

MR HOLE: And you also say in one of the annexures, Annexure D and Annexure F of your statement that a mercenary, a French National, Mr Desville was also used in the attack on the President's home.

JUDGE WILSON: He doesn't say it,  he annexes  newspaper reports that say it.

MR HOLE: Perhaps it is clumsily put, Mr Commissioner, that is so.   It is Annexure D and Annexure F of his affidavit, Mr Chairman.  Sir, are you aware of incidents where people whose origin could be traced back to Transkei were in fact repatriated by the Ciskei State?

J W MAKOM: I know about the soldiers who came to Bisho.  One soldier died because there was a lot of shooting.   Templeton Nondela, he is the one who died.   He was released after negotiations.   This was under Gen Bantu Holomisa who was at the time in power.

HASSAN MALL: What is the purpose of all this Mr Hole, this evidence?

MR HOLE: Mr Chairman, I am trying as much as possible to draw a full picture for the Committee to view whatever acts may have been committed by these applicants, within a full context of what uwas happening at the time.   It might perhaps not be easy to
understand why some of these acts had taken place, but I will not proceed in this line any further.   I think I've (...indistinct)

HASSAN MALL: I am not stopping you.   I just wanted some clarity in my mind.

MR HOLE: Mr Makom, you are also, Sir, making application in respect of Miss Msutwana and if I recall correctly you were acquitted, rather were not even charged with the assault on her.

J W MAKOM: When I made an application I thought it was necessary to mention this because I was there when she was being tortured.  EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR HOLE	44	MR MAKOM
At a certain stage I also tortured her even though I was not there all the time.  I left the others, continuing with the torturing.  But after the Reconciliation Act I thought it was necessary to reconcile with her, because truly no matter what the circumstances were at the time she was tortured and ill-treated.  I ask for forgiveness from Miss Msutwana.  I ask for reconciliation, that we walk hand in hand into the new South Africa, because I did not fight with her personally, even Mr Simandla, Mrs Nomoy or her sister Nomanlungela.  I ask for forgiveness today.  I am sorry.
	Because on reflection in jail, even though past deeds were perpetrated on our people, it was never my aim as a policeman, but I was on duty.  I would have been in trouble if I did not show that I would stand up and protect the Ciskeian Government of the day.

MR HOLE: Sir can you tell the Committee how long do you still have to sit in custody in respect of the offences of which you are convicted?

J W MAKOM: I was sentenced to seven years imprisonment.  On
the 20 November this year I am supposed to be released.

MR HOLE: That is all the questions I wish to put to this witness thank you Mr Chairman.   Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOLE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Makom you were, if you remember, directly implicated by Miss Msutwana during the criminal trial of your co-applicant in her assault.

J W MAKOM: I cannot remember well whether she did say so or not Ma'am, because there were a lot of cases facing us at the time.  What I remember properly is that I was not charged on her case or sentenced.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Brink, did I ask you earlier if you had any
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR HOLE	45	MR MAKOM
questions?   Mr Brink I thought you told me you had no questions?

MR BRINK: I did not answer your question, because it
was not put to me with respect.   I think it was put to Mr Hole.

HASSAN MALL: Misunderstanding, I am sorry.

MR BRINK: Indeed, that is all right.   I will not be long.

MR BRINK: Mr Makom, you likewise at the time were a lieutenant.

J W MAKOM: No, I was a Sergeant.  I became a Lieutenant later on.

MR BRINK: I just want to put to you, maybe you personally were not involved, but the victims asked me to put these questions to you, which I propose to do.
	Is it correct that after the assault on Brig Simandla he was left without medication for some nine days until Maj Vuso called the doctor?