Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, to us it was not necessary to report our mission to the government, because the ANC was capable of handling everything that would be detrimental to its rank and file, so we trusted our top brass.

ADV SANDI: No, I am talking about reporting that there were these strange people in this area, reporting that to the authorities in the Transkei.  That did not cross your mind?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I didn't.  I only thought of my Commanders, MK Commanders.  I only thought of the upper structures of the ANC.

ADV SANDI: You did not think it was necessary for those who were in charge of the Transkei at the time, to know if there were such people in the area?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I do not think, I didn't think so because I thought it would be the duty of the ANC top official to go to the government, not us as the rank and file, because any information would need a thorough analysis of the top brass of the ANC.
	Now, it would be improper for us as SDU's or members of the Executive of the ANC Youth League sub-region to go to the government in that capacity and report such a delicate issue.

ADV SANDI: If information had subsequently been relayed to you that these people were not really infiltrators as they were suspected to be, what would have happened?  Would you have continued with the operation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, definitely not.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: If that Gomolo, if there would be a proof that that Gomolo was not used as an area where these people were using it as their springboard, therefore we would change our minds.

ADV SANDI: Then, in that event, how would you have ensured retaliation for the assassination of Mr Chris Hani?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: As I have said in my affidavit, that for instance we could have gone to either Kokstad or the Wild Coast where there are many whites, but in view of the fact that we had already learnt that there were anti-liberation whites, who had infiltrated Port St Johns and who were using Port St Johns as a base for launching their opposition to the democratic process and our organisation, we decided we should carry out the revenge attack on those whites at Port St Johns.

ADV SANDI: You see Mr Maxhayi, speaking for myself, at this stage I find the reason for the killing of these people quite confusing.  Maybe you will clarify it.
	Were these people killed because it was believed that they were infiltrators, or were they killed because of the assassination of Mr Hani?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We killed them because we had information that they have infiltrated Port St Johns, I mean whites had infiltrated Port St Johns.  That is why we went to Port St Johns and killed those people in that area, which is suspected by the comrades of that area, that it is their springboard.

ADV SANDI: If Mr Hani had not been assassinated, I take it that you would still have gone on, you would still have proceeded to kill these suspected infiltrators, am I correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, we would go and ask for the data from the comrades and transmit it in the way we were doing our things, in the proper channelling of our problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you must clear up some confusion in my mind then.  I understood you to have told us that when Mr Hani was assassinated, there was a decision rightly or wrongly, to send a clear message to the government of the time that the assassination of the leadership is not going to be tolerated.
	And hence a decision was taken to retaliate and kill a white skinned person or persons, correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In identifying that specific white person or persons, you found it convenient to target those people who you believed, based on the information, who had infiltrated and was using that coastline near Port St Johns as a springboard for their activities?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To me then, this is two separate reasons.  The one flows into the other, not so?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Let me rephrase it this way.  The information that we got, caused us to take Port St Johns as the first area of operation, according to our campaign that we launched, that we should retaliate for comrade Chris.
	As I have said earlier on that we should have gone to other areas, where we should show that anger.  Maybe Wild Coast, maybe Kokstad, to the maybe police station there, Security Forces over there and so whatever enemy of the revolutionaries in those areas, but the fact that we went to Port St Johns, is only due to the information that we had had before.

MR SMUTS: If I can follow up then, is it your evidence that the correct procedure would have been once you heard of this counter-revolutionary infiltration, to allow for an investigation to establish whether or not that information was correct and if you did establish that it was correct, to feed that information through the proper channels to the upper echelons of MK and the African National Congress?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Sorry, it is not the question of only proving it to be correct, but to come up with all the relevant details, not framework information.  We wanted them to come up with a thorough investigation of the whole setup, you see.
	That wouldn't necessary mean that it would prove them to be liars.  We wanted them to come up with a concrete information around that.

MR SMUTS: Before you were prepared to report this information to the higher echelons of the African National Congress and MK, you wanted a full report with as much detail as you could supply to your superiors, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: At the time, before Chris Hani was assassinated, yes.

MR SMUTS: Once Mr Hani was assassinated, those channels were no longer the channels that you were interested in working through?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: They were, they were.

MR SMUTS: Rather than establish a full report with full information that could be fed through to your superiors, you decided without instruction and without authorization from either MK or the African National Congress, to launch your own campaign to kill white people?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, as I have said earlier on, as a Self Defence Unit we had an autonomous status.

MR SMUTS: And you sought to target people in this campaign on the basis of information which was not of such a nature that you were prepared to pass it on to your superiors?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, even if they would come up saying that the information that we gave you before, is the same, we don't have another information, we would proceed, we would take it to the upper structures.  Ours was to allow the time for them to come up with new developments, not that we were not trusting them, but they were saying these are our comrades, now we had all the rights to trust them.

MR SMUTS: Even when they identified a target, you decided not to go for that for personal security reasons?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, as I have said, that would change now the trend because that would cause a counter between us and the police or between us or either the police or the Transkei Defence Force members, now that would now change the whole thing.

MR SMUTS: And when you finally decided on a target, it was because the people were white skinned and happened to be in this specific geographic area?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, the area which was really our target.

MR SMUTS: Even though you sent people to reconnoitre the area and to find information, you did not establish the identity of your victims before you fired upon them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: To me, as I have said earlier on, that area, that terrain was regarded as the area where these people are using it as a springboard.  Now, any white person around that area, to me, was the part and parcel of that operation.

MR SMUTS: What stopped you from asking the other people in the area who these white people were and what they were doing there?