Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

MR VISSER: His illegal detention or depravation of his freedom, defeating the ends of justice, which you have already informed us about and any other offence or illegal deed which may emanate from evidence.  Is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, thank you, that is the evidence-in-chief which we wish to place before you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We'll take the adjournment at this stage and resume at a quarter past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

H J P BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You have no further questions to put to Mr Botha in-chief?

MR VISSER: Thank you, no Mr Chairman, save for drawing your attention to one further aspect, and that is that in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Report, volume 3, at page 205 there is reference to this incident of Mr Dion Cele.  I just draw your attention to it.  Perhaps I can read to you quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll save you the trouble.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: But it does not - it's not at variance at all with the evidence which you're about to hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Do you have any questions to put?

MR NEL: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions to put on behalf of the victims?

MS THABETHE: I do, Mr Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please do so.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.
	Mr Botha, when it was reported that Cele would be willing to co-operate, were you there?  Were you present?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, I was present, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Were you told on what basis he would be willing to co-operate?  Or rather just to rephrase the question, did Mr Sikhakane tell you on what basis he reached the decision that Mr Cele would be willing to co-operate?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, Col Vorster informed us that Sikhakane told him that Cele was willing to be recruited as an informer.  I was not personally informed by Mr Sikhakane.

MS THABETHE: So what you are saying in other words, is that you don't know the basis upon which Sikhakane reached the decision that Cele would be willing to co-operate.  Is that your evidence?

H J P BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Would you know when Mr Sikhakane actually informed Mr Vorster?  In terms of time, when did he inform him?

H J P BOTHA: No, I would not know exactly when he informed him.

MS THABETHE: When were you informed that there was such a possibility?

H J P BOTHA: A few days before our departure for Amsterdam to execute the abduction.

MS THABETHE: Was it two days, three days, a day before?

H J P BOTHA: I would say it was less than a week, within a seven day period.

MS THABETHE: Would you know whether the information, whatever information was given by Mr Sikhakane to Mr Vorster was verified?  About Dion Cele.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, if I understand the question correctly, the information which Col Vorster had via Sikhakane, he verified it with me on the grounds of information that I had which we received from Swaziland that Cele was responsible for border work.  And we confirmed that he was responsible for border work.

MR LAX: I think the question you're being asked is a subtly different one.  She's saying, was the information that the deceased would co-operate with you verified?  In other words, was the information Sikhakane gave you that led to the abduction of the deceased, was that information that he'd be likely to become an informer or a worker with you, was that verified?  That's what she's asking you.

H J P BOTHA: No, that information was not verified by me.

MR LAX: Was it verified by anyone else as far as you know?

H J P BOTHA: Not as far as I know, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Now you've also indicated that Mr Vorster informed you or requested you to come and join them for this operation of the abduction of Mr Cele.  Do you know why specifically you were called to come and join them for this operation?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I said that at that stage Col Vorster was at the Division Natal and we were the Division Port Natal and right up to that stage we had much success with out actions against terrorists in the Division Port Natal.  We had a very thorough network of informers in Swaziland.  This was the first operation for Col Vorster and Pietermaritzburg and that is why they needed our expertise in terms of what our information network was, and that is why we were asked to accompany and work with them.

MS THABETHE: When you were requested to become part of the operation, what was going to be your role in the whole operation?

H J P BOTHA: At that stage I worked with MK Intelligence, I was responsible for the analysis of this information.  And consequently if Cele conveyed information I would be able to verify it on the basis of what was already known to us.  And in the whole process I would play a part in his abduction and it would be an active role.

MS THABETHE: You have also indicated that when you went to Swaziland you first went for the reconnaissance and then you went back to the borders.  You've also indicated that Mr - you went to a hotel where Mr Sikhakane pointed out Mr Cele.  Would I be correct to say so?

H J P BOTHA: No.  We found Mr Sikhakane at the George Hotel and from there we went to the college where he identified the college to us, and he met with Mr Cele that evening so we could identify Mr Cele as to what he looks like.  And that was the purpose of the reconnaissance that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that to mean that when Mr Sikhakane was talking to Cele, you watched that from a distance, or were you part of the conversation between the two of them?

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson, this took place over some distance.  Mr Cele attended classes at the college in Manzini and when classes ceased at approximately eight in the evening he would come out and Mr Sikhakane would meet him at the gate so that he could identify him to us.  And this was done over a distance by means of observation.

MS THABETHE: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.
	Before Mr Vorster told you anything about Dion Cele, as a person who was responsible for information analysis, did you know anything at all about Mr Dion Cele before?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.  I knew he was part of the MK Natal structure in Swaziland, responsible for border work.  Border work entailed that he worked in certain areas at the border, he recruited people who assisted them in the insurgence of terrorists into the country and the smuggling of weapons by means of couriers.  So his role and activities within the MK structure of the Natal machinery was known to me, yes.

MS THABETHE: So you wanted to recruit him, that's correct isn't it?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say it was known to you, you did not know the individual, you knew somebody by that name?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: What I wanted to know is, you had indicated that you had intentions to recruit him, what were you going to use him for?

H J P BOTHA: As an informer.

MS THABETHE: Another question with regard to that, that the family asked me to ask you is, would you have recruited him if you had not been informed that he was willing to co-operate?  Bearing in mind that you already knew about him before.

H J P BOTHA: All persons were targets for recruitment by the Security Branch.  The fact that we became aware that he was an easier target is why we specifically focused on him.

MS THABETHE: You have indicated that when you took him into the car, when he was taken into the kombi he screamed.  Is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MS THABETHE: Did he say anything else besides screaming?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, asked who we were and what were we doing.