Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: If they, if there was any indication that they do not wish to co-operate fully.   Usually the way it worked if people were picked up, they were either handed over, or captured by the local Security Branch who would so-called "break them in" with all different third degree methods, and then after that if co-operating and if a case can be built
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up against them and they are not of very big significant value or high up in the ANC they would be charged and go through a court case, otherwise if a case could not be built up they would be eliminated and if they then are of value and decided to co-operate they would be handed over to Section C and more specifically Colonel Jack Buchner and then Colonel Trevor Baker who would then go through the so-called "terrorist album" with all the photos and particulars of the ANC cadres who left the country for training and then they would get this guy to co-operate and they update the files of all his friends who have been with him in exile.   On such and such a date this man was with me in Quatro Camp for hand grenade training for instance.   In that way it was, and only then thereafter they would be placed and based at Vlakplaas, handed over to me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: They would then be called askaris?

ANSWER: Askaris, that is correct.   Askari is actually a Swahili, Arabic word meaning "black soldier".   I don't know how exactly it came about that they called them askaris, that name was given to them before I arrived at the farm.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So this would be the process that Mr Mamasela would have gone through to become an askari, to become an informer.

ANSWER: No, Mr Mamasela was actually an awaiting trial prisoner in Krugersdorp prison when Major Kruger of West Rand Security went there as a result of an incident in jail.  He was then still in South Africa as a member of student organisations in Soweto.   He then approached Mr Kruger and said that he is part of this student organisation and he can be of a great help.   He was there awaiting trial on robbery.   Major Kruger then checked his background, later
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involved Captain Jan Coetzee as an additional handler, and in August 1979 Joe Mamasela was released and then started with the South African Security Police.   He only thereafter infiltrated the ANC in Botswana and when he was caught out by them he then worked with Jan Coetzee, I don't know for how long and exactly when he was called out, but he permanently came to Vlakplaas in February 1982.   That is how he became an askari.

JUDGE WILSON: Had he been caught out by then, did the ANC know that he was...

ANSWER: At some stage I believe so yes Mr Chairman, but as I say it was not my, it was not part of my duty and I can't give you exact particulars.   I just know that he was awaiting trial, according to documents coming from the Umhlazi docket which was made available to us, there's police memorandums in which states that he was an awaiting trial prisoner, he was recruited and then voluntarily without any force and then he infiltrated the ANC in Botswana only thereafter.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee with reference to Peter Nglamini and Selve Mavuso, in your manuscript on page 111, paragraph
5.4.16.1.18, I want to refer to the last two sentences in that paragraph and my question will come therefrom.   You say:
"Here we filled his police van with old motor car tyres."

ANSWER: That's correct.
QUESTION:
"...Vusi witnesses all this activity from the back of the car, he was quiet and never spoke once on
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the road."
Did he know at this stage as to what was going to happen to him?

ANSWER: I'm sure Mr Chairman, I don't know whether exactly at that stage but I know whilst Koos Vermeulen prepared the drinks on the farm at Kopfontein he once spoke and says he's now prepared to co-operate and will help.   It was not in my hands, as soon as you are handed over to us there's a point of non-return and it could have only been used by him for the opportunity to convince us to set him free - that is how we saw it - and so his, his beggings if you can put it that way, fell on deaf ears Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Will you agree with me if you say he knew as to what was happening to him this man actually started suffering at your hands at the stage when you loaded the tyres on the car?

ANSWER: Well mentally or psychologically yes Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.  You have testified that you poisoned him and Nglameni many a times without success and you finally succeeded.   After how many days did you succeed?

ANSWER: The poisoning as I said happened on the 11th and the 12th and then the third lot of poison on the 25th on the Sunday after we came back from General Lothar Neethling's house and they were eventually killed on the Monday the 26th by giving them knock-out drops and shooting them down at Komatipoort next to the river where they were burned Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: So that gives us a total of four days?

ANSWER: From 11-26, 14 days, 15 days.

<UNKNOWN>: In these 15 days these men, Selve and Peter Nglameni knew that an attempt was made to kill them and
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until finally it was done.   They knew this all the time.

ANSWER: No I would say Peter we brought under the impression, we handcuffed Vusi to Peter, onto Peter on their arms, telling Peter that he's got to guard Vusi and there is a possibility that after the 12th, I don't know exactly where Koos Vermeulen kept them, whether he, what place, it is possible that in that two weeks he might have thought well there might be a turn of events.   I don't know I'm only speculating Mr Chairman.   I must say yes it's possible as to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously they couldn't have known that there's been an attempt made at poisoning them, they wouldn't have known that?

ANSWER: No they wouldn't have known that Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: On page 111, paragraph 5.4.16.1.20 you state
"We opened drinks, Koos offered Vusi a beer but he said he would rather like a soft drink.   I let Vusi sign three blank receipts of the kind that were used for payments to informers.   I let him use two different pens.   He wanted to know why but I said that he should just sign and not ask questions.   He offered to co-operate but we ignored him.
		We cuffed Vusi to Peter telling Peter that he was guarding Vusi."
So clearly Vusi at that stage that he'll be killed?

ANSWER: In one way, looking at one way at it it's true Mr Chairman but in the other way that we still don't trust him and therefore keep a close eye on him.

UNKNOWN: Then you poisoned him and for the whole night he was suffering and scratching and you didn't assassinate
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him, you let him suffer and the next day you repeated this whole process.

ANSWER: Well it was, he wasn't poisoned he was given those knock-out drops Mr Chairman which made him then fell over like a person that had taken in excessive alcohol.   I don't know what the exact results, feeling is of a person thereafter...

UNKNOWN: Why didn't you assassinate him, why did you allow him to suffer all this?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman I know there, there can be placed many why's that's true, why didn't we just put a bullet through his head, why didn't, why does one commander hit his victim with a spade on the head and the next one poisons his victims?   I can't explain that is just how it happened.

UNKNOWN: Ja but weren't you sort of enjoying sitting there and seeing this man suffering?