Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: On page 32 it says
"The applicant then took the oath forms and they walked out of the flat, after which he told Adriaan about the incident. Between the three of them they decided that a vengeance attack should be launched. The applicant told both men that it should take place under the auspices of the Orde Boerevolk and not the AWB."
You say you don't know anything about this?

MR BOTHA: Let me put it this way, Chairperson, the content is correct but I didn't actually draft it in those terms.

JUDGE WILSON: It also says that you also took his false number plates.

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you obtain these number plates, and when?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, false number plates are easily obtainable at a scrap-metal yard from old cars. I took them on the evening of the attack to use them to conceal the identity of the car.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Botha, to follow up on the question that was put to you by my brother. From the Judgment by the Appellate Division, one finds the following on page 29 of the bundle of documents - the second page 29.
"The first appellant testified that the attack on the bus was an action of the Orde Boerevolk with which the AWB had nothing to do".
Is that in fact how  you in fact testified during your trial before - before the trial court?

MR BOTHA: I remember that in my trial before Judge Galgut, I made it clear that, although I was a member of the AWB, the AWB had not been involved in the attack in any way, and that it was an Orde Boerevolk action. Yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why do you say it was from the OB, Orde Boerevolk? You yourself took the decision, isn't it?

MR BOTHA: As a cell leader of the Orde Boerevolk I took the decision, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you think it would be in line with the policy and instructions of the Boerevolk?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I did think that, since at the time of my swearing in as a member of the Orde Boerevolk it was said to me that if a White person should lose his life as a result of Black organised political violence, ten lives must be taken. Ten Black lives should be taken for each White life lost in this kind of attack. That was our policy. Those were instructions given to me and I carried out these instructions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was that aimed at achieving any political purpose, the killing of ten Blacks for every White killed?

MR BOTHA: The objective behind that instruction was to demonstrate to the then government and to the PAC to persuade them that they should change their views and to show that if they continued with their objectives, that would lead to great confrontation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I have difficulties in understanding you because what you are really saying according to your evidence is that  -  if the following day,  after the attack of the bus, if one White person was killed, you would go on and kill another ten and so on and so on and so forth.

MR BOTHA: Yes, that was the instruction that we received.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Until apparently we'd all be finished.

MR BOTHA: Or until I was killed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How do you manage to achieve any political objective by so doing?

MR BOTHA: You must understand that the Orde Boerevolk did not exist only - I was not the only cell, my cell was not the only one. I did not know what the extent and size of the Orde Boerevolk was. It wasn't for me to question any of the instructions which I received but only to carry it out. For instance a similar attack could have been launched in Cape Town or  wherever and a cell in Port Elizabeth for instance, would have acted in the same way as I did here in Natal.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I accept that it was not for you to question the policy or instructions of the OB, but why do you seek to justify the instructions of one White per ten Black in terms of political achievement?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, if you look back at what happened in history, like for instance when America dropped the two atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, hundreds of thousands of people were killed after the dropping of one bomb. That was not done to commit mass murder, but to compel the Japanese government to stop the war, to prevent further loss of human life, to bring an end to the aggression on the part of the Japanese people.
And those were my objectives - to stop the aggression of the PAC, to change their views.  As far as I was concerned at the time, the only way in which that could be done was not by means of half-hearted conduct but to act in a very forceful manner to bring that message across.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see the same judge on page 34 says the following
"As already indicated, the motive was revenge and nothing else. In fact, the first appellant admitted this in his testimony."
By eerste applikant he is actually referring to yourself, am I right?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you in fact say so because that is what the learned Judge says here. He says you yourself actually said so, that the motive was weerwraak (revenge).   Did you in fact say so during the trial?

MR BOTHA: Yes, but let me put this into context. I also there drew a comparison that in the war in Israel - for instance if a Palestinian crossed the border into Israel and killed an Israeli citizen, he would then be acting against the Israeli Defence force, and the Defence force would then act in a cross-border operation and they would eradicate a whole town in one attack - a whole Palestinian village.
I don't know any other word to describe this as an act of vengeance, of revenge, to show the Palestinians that, that type of conduct would not be tolerated and that we would hit you very hard if you did it. So in that way, if you use the word revenge, I think that is the idea I am trying to convey. It wasn't a personal thing, nobody did me any personal injustice. But an injustice had been done against my people and that is why I retaliated. Maybe the word vengeance or revenge is a bad choice of words. What I tried to convey was a certain feeling which I had.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are not saying that the Judge misunderstood you, are you?

MR BOTHA: I think maybe the Judge incorrectly understood the word in the context in which I used it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well maybe that should have been pointed out to him.
	The firearms, or rather the FN of which you were convicted, where did you get it from?

MR BOTHA: It was a Defence force issue rifle.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Had it been regularly or properly issued to you?

MR BOTHA: No, it hadn't issued to me and that is why I was charged with illegal possession of this firearm.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How did you manage to get hold of it?

MR BOTHA: It had been in the possession of a fellow AWB member.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, come again?

MR BOTHA: It had been in the possession - it had been issued - it had been issued to a person who had been a member of the AWB and I was friendly with this person.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then he gave it to you?

MR BOTHA: And he gave it to me to use.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With ammunition?

MR BOTHA: With?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With the ammunition?

MR BOTHA: With the ammunition, yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you tell him what you wanted it for?