Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR LAX: ;   Sorry, is it a he or a she because it says Ms here?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She's one of ANC members.

MR VISSER: And she told you that Betty Boom was dead, she told you this in 1997.

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Alright.  In paragraph 9 of your statement, you alleged that the family first learned about Betty's disappearance in about 1997 when told by Ms Semang that Betty was dead.  Is that statement correct?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Were you present when the family was told this?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I was present.

MR VISSER: And who is Ms Semang?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I said she's one of the ANC members from Johannesburg.

MR VISSER: Did you ask her what the circumstances of Betty Boom's death were, as far as the ANC knew?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: We asked her.

MR VISSER: What did she tell you?  How did she know that Betty Boom was dead?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She informed us that it was learned that Betty Boom was killed in Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: Did she tell you by whom?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She did not say, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you ask her what had happened to Betty Boom's remains?  Where is she?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: We were informed that Betty Boom's remains were buried somewhere in Ladybrand in one of the farms, but she did not know the particular farm.

MR VISSER: Do you oppose the applications of the applicants for amnesty?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, I am against the application.

MR VISSER: Why is that?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: They applied for amnesty but the statements they submitted did not state what happened to Betty Boom and others, they just stated that they abducted them from Lesotho and returned them to Lesotho, but they did not tell us the end.

MR VISSER: What is the end?  What end is that?  I don't follow you.  You say they didn't tell you what?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: They stated that they left them at the taxi rank.

MR VISSER: Yes, so they did tell you what happened to them.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: They did not.

MR VISSER: I see.  So you don't believe them, do you?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't believe them because I don't see the reason why they should take Betty from her house and then when they return her to Lesotho, why they don't take her direct to where they took her.

MR VISSER: Is that the reason why you don't believe their evidence?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have none, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: No questions, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: I have got no question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?  The other way round, I wanted when there is any everything must be covered because of time.  I do apologise, that's not the procedure, but I had that in mind, even though I did not vocalise it.

MR MALINDI: I understand Chairperson, there's no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Seyoe, we thank you very much.  That is the end of your evidence.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: The ball has always been in your court.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I beg leave to call Mrs Sejanamane.

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, you may proceed.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Mrs Sejanamane, how are you related to Tax Sejanamane?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: Tax Sejanamane is my son.

MR MALINDI: Did your son at any stage leave home to go into exile?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: Yes, that is when he went to Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: Are you able to tell the Committee when it was that he went to Lesotho?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: The last time I saw Godfrey Thebogo Sejanamane in 1980, that is when he was still harassed by the police.  They used to come and detain him.  They used to fetch him from school.

MR MALINDI: Then after he had gone into exile, did you know where he was staying?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: Yes, I did know.

MR MALINDI: Where was that?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: He was at Upper Thamai in Lesotho at his wife's sister.

MR MALINDI: Was he staying with his wife's sister?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: He had a room there. They were not staying together in the same house.

MR MALINDI: You mentioned his wife, where was his wife?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: She was also there at Upper Thamai.

MR MALINDI: At a different place to where Tax was staying, or not?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: Yes, that is where they got married.

MR MALINDI: And do you know which year Tax was staying with his wife and the wife's sister's place?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, with respect, that's not the evidence of this witness.  The evidence of this witness has been specific now that she stayed at a place different from where Mr - unless I've missed out on something.

CHAIRPERSON: That is correct.  First they stayed at different places, unless I misheard, but I'll give you an opportunity Mr Malindi, I think I heard what Mr Visser heard.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  I'm a bit confused then and maybe I should cover the ground again.

CHAIRPERSON: You are welcome to do that.  Thank you Chairperson.  Give us a moment, the interpreter is coming to get something right.

MR MALINDI: Ms Sejanamane, could I please ask you to clarify something?  I may have been confused.  You testified that Tax was staying at his wife's sister's place.

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: Did he stay with his sister-in-law in the same house?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: No, they had their own room.

MR MALINDI: When you say they had their own room, who are you referring to?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: I mean Tax and his wife.

MR MALINDI: And was their own room on the same premises as his sister-in-law's house?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: That is correct, Chairperson, they were in the same yard.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, if I've clarified, may I proceed again?

CHAIRPERSON: Then you may proceed.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Which year was it when Tax and his wife were staying in a room on the same premises where his sister-in-law's house was?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: If I recall, in 1982 they were still staying there.

MR MALINDI: While Tax was in exile, was the family able to communicate with him?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: Yes, we had contact.  We used to go and see him there because we heard from the people that he was in Maseru, so I wanted to go and see him there.

MR MALINDI: At one stage the ANC and other organisations were unbanned.  Did you get to meet your son thereafter?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: I have never met with him.

MR MALINDI: Have you been able to get any information about his whereabouts?

MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE: When I attended a funeral at ...(indistinct) I heard from a person call Zakariah and he told me that he was - he attended Philip's Sejanamane's funeral in Tanzania, then I asked him where Tax was and he said to me Tax was not there.

MR MALINDI: You said that Tax was staying with his wife and the sister-in-law on the same property.  Have either his wife or the sister-in-law told you what happened to Tax?