Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR KNOETZE: Can you tell the committee why did you do it, or what happened?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: With the robbery, it wasn't just myself, it was Matthew's as well, Matthew's stole the cassettes, as well as the tools.

MR KNOETZE: Was that part of the planning, part of the instruction that you received, that you must do such a thing?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Can you explain how it happened that you committed this crime?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did it in a moment of madness.

MR KNOETZE: Are you sorry about it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, yes I am sorry that I stole that jacket.

MR KNOETZE: The occupants of the Honda and Cressida were commanded or told to go and sit.   Can you explain on what they sat and where in relation to the vehicles?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There was a type of embankment on which they sat.

MR KNOETZE: This embankment, was that further away from the tar road as where the cars were?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: In other words, it would have been to the left of the vehicles?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Where did you stand at that stage?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: At that stage I stood just behind the Honda Ballade, Mr Chairperson, on the side of the tar road.

MR KNOETZE: In other words, the Honda was at that stage between you and the black people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I stood on the side of the road of the Honda Ballade.   If you stand in front of the vehicle, on the right-hand side.

MR KNOETZE: That is why I ask you, and where were the black people then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The black people were on my left-hand side, they sat on the embankment.

MR KNOETZE: And what happened then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Certain questions were put to them, or Mr Martins asked them certain questions regarding what political party they belonged to.   He repeated his question, I don't remember how many times.   Mr Kloppers stood behind the people and would tap them over the head with this baton.

MR KNOETZE: Did you hear the answers of these people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I heard no answers.

MR KNOETZE: What happened then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: A while later, Mr Etienne Visser came to me and said to me that I must prepare myself we're going to shoot and take that thing out.

MR KNOETZE: Where did he come from?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I cannot precisely say where he came from.

MR KNOETZE: Who do you thought this instruction came from?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I thought that it could only have been from the seniors, namely Chief Commander Martins, Chief Commander Kloppers and Commandant Martins.

MR KNOETZE: What happened then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: As Visser told it to you, Mr Visser and I moved around at the same time, we took our positions in and Mr Martins then shot the first shot.

MR KNOETZE: Before you continue, where did you station yourself?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was in front of the Honda Ballade.

MR KNOETZE: And how can you say that it was Deon Martins who shot the first shot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I saw when the first shot rang.

MR KNOETZE: And what happened afterwards?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: After that shot was fired, everybody started shooting.

MR KNOETZE: What did you do?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: My pipe shotgun was loaded, I fired one round in the direction of the people, I turned it around, I put another round in it, and also fired off the other round in the direction of the people.

MR KNOETZE: Why did you fire?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I only executed an order that was given to me.

MR KNOETZE: How much ammunition did you have with you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I had a belt full.

MR KNOETZE: How many rounds are in there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I think it was 27 rounds.

MR KNOETZE: What happened then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: After the shooting someone shouted there's a vehicle on the way, certain people jumped into the Sentra, it was on its way, I shouted "Stop", I wanted to get in as well, I ran across the road and Chief Commandant Klopper then shouted that "We will meet you at the town hall".

MR KNOETZE: And you then got into the Sentra and drove to the town hall?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: And eventually where did you disperse that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: From the town hall, we went to Jaco Badenhorst's parents' house.

MR KNOETZE: And then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There we waited for Chief Commander Kloppers, and later, a while later, Kloppers and Martins and Etienne Visser arrived.   Kloppers said to me that I have to go and look in front of the Mercedes on the passenger's seat, there's a bag, I must go and fetch it.   I did it.    I handed over the bag and out of the bag he took the ear of a black man.

MR KNOETZE: Was there comments made?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was asked who fired shots, and everybody who had weapons with them said that they shot.  Mr Diedericks was not at Mr Badenhorst's house.

MR KNOETZE: Was comments made regarding the ear?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Mr Kloppers showed us the ear and said that the next morning he will hand the ear over to General Oelofse.   From there on we went home.   I went with Kloppers and Visser also went with us.   We first dropped Visser off at his house and then Kloppers dropped me off at my house, where I handed him the pipe shotgun that he gave me that evening.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, I note that it is four o'clock.   I don't know until what time you mean to sit, but if you want to adjourn now, it is a convenient stage?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's a convenient time to adjourn until tomorrow at half past nine.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS