Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR LAX: No problem.  What I'm saying to you is, is it not clear to you that not all of your comrades understood her plight, understood what she had been through.  Some of them like Majiga persisted in asking her questions about where she had been.

JOHN RADEBE: I would not know that because Makasas nor Majiga did not tell, inform me about that.

MR LAX: Yes, but you can't dispute that happened as she said it did in her statement.

JOHN RADEBE: I would not dispute that.  I would not confirm that.

MR LAX: All I'm saying to you is in the light of that, you can understand why her family would not have told you where she was because they were terrified that something might happen to her.  Not so?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't know how they took it, but what I know is that all members of the Kamufe family were ANC.

MR LAX: I'm going to leave this.  I don't know whether you're just deliberately not listening, or if there's some communication problem.  I'll leave it anyway.

MS THABETHE: No further questions Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Radebe, if you look at your application form on page 141, paragraph 7(b), it says there you're an MK underground member.  Are you an MK underground member?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: This is not Mr Khumalo's evidence.

JOHN RADEBE: If the Committee has a problem with that the person who just testified before me provided training.

ADV BOSMAN: He did not testify that you were trained for MK.  He said you were on a training course as an SDU.

JOHN RADEBE: I'm saying I got trained.

ADV BOSMAN: As an MK underground?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take that any further.  What do you understand to be an MK?

JOHN RADEBE: An MK is a soldier, was a soldier who would fight for his country at the time when the boers were ruling.

ADV BOSMAN: Now who told you that the training course was an MK underground training course?

JOHN RADEBE: That is Commissar Banda.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't pursue that any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that there were cessation of hostilities by the MK as a structure, when you allegedly went for your, what has been called a crash course?  Are you aware of that?  That you therefore couldn't have been trained as an MK?  And that's the reason why there was a need for the establishment of SDUs.  Because MK had become operationally inoperative.

JOHN RADEBE: The person who trained me can tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm telling you this as a fact.  We have a submission from the ANC together with its undoing Umkhonto weSiswe.  You evidence in this regard is completely in discord with the submission by the structure itself.  You are mistaken.

ADV BOSMAN: Did I understand you correctly, that your hiding place was in Maletsatsi's shack and that you hid your weapons there?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now you also, if I understood you correctly, testified that the reason why you felt Maletsatsi had to be killed was because she knew too much.  She knew where you were hiding, and she knew where you hid the weapons.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if you turn to your statement on page 147, you state there, in paragraph 5, the bottom line, now that is the statement relates to the morning after the police had been there,
"...the following morning Majiga Philip and other burned Maletsatsi's shack."
Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Well then if the shack had been burned surely you could no longer use it as a hiding place.  Your weapons could no longer have been there.  Do you agree?

JOHN RADEBE: Can you repeat your question.  I want to understand you clearly.

ADV BOSMAN: You said that Maletsatsi had to be killed, when you shot her, because she knew too much.  She knew where you stayed in her shack and she knew about the weapons that were hidden there.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Then you say in your statement that the shack was burned down.  This was before she was killed.

JOHN RADEBE: Correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So where were your weapons?  In another place?

JOHN RADEBE: When we slept at night each one would take his weapon.  Now because of the sounds of the vehicles we all ran out.

ADV BOSMAN: No you don't follow my question.  I say that by the time Maletsatsi was killed, the shack was burned down.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: The shack had been burned already when she was killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, so you could not then be scared that she would divulge your hiding place because it was no longer your hiding place.  Am I correct?

JOHN RADEBE: We had more than ten bases.  It's not only Maletsatsi's place that we used as our base.  She knew many of our hiding places, not only her shack.

ADV BOSMAN: How did she know about the other places?

JOHN RADEBE: Sometimes it would happen that we go to a night vigil and some of the comrades would be expected to patrol, and Maletsatsi was among a group that was singing for a cultural group, and before leaving for a night vigil we would go past the bases and take what we would need.  And we did not hide things, some of the things from them, sometimes when one of the comrades was being sought by the police we would send her, we would send the girls, so that the police or the people do not realise there were people in the yard.  That's how she knew about our bases.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take that any further.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Bosman.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Now I want you to look at page 148, paragraph 6.  You say there that comrade Kennel Paulus Malekwane was your unit commander at Small Farms.  Do you see that ?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Was he your unit commander?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I was still in Small Farm.

MR LAX: Well then how could you have got an order from Mabusa if you were still in the Small Farms unit and you hadn't yet gone to Zone 12 unit?

JOHN RADEBE: I think I mentioned that it was in the morning when Kennel mentioned this issue.  We were still in Small Farms, and I left the Small Farm unit heading for Zone 12.  That's when I told them about this issue, and they had already received the news as well.

MR LAX: No, that's not the case.  You were not a member yet of that unit.  Isn't that so

JOHN RADEBE: Which unit?

MR LAX: The Zone 12 unit.

JOHN RADEBE: When I left Small Farm I was already a member of the Zone 12 unit.  I gave them this information because I was already a member.

MR LAX: Your previous evidence is that you hadn't joined the Zone 12 unit at that stage.  Do you remember that?  You remained a member of the Small Farms unit, and that's why Molekwane was your unit commander.  Have you forgotten that?

JOHN RADEBE: The Committee must please remember, what did I say, I do not remember well, but what I do remember is that I gave them information, when I gave them information I was already their member.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a fully fledged member of the Zone 12 unit in June 1993?

JOHN RADEBE: 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: My apologies, June 1992.

JOHN RADEBE: I do not remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: That is your evidence.  It's approximately then.  You were not precise.  You were estimating.  According to the evidence of Mr Mabusa however, you initially joined, you were recruited or went into his unit, in May.  He then appointed you to go to Sasolburg for a course for a month.  When you came back not only were you a member but you were second in charge to him.  That's in June 1992.

JOHN RADEBE: I want to inform the Committee that I do not want to make mistakes as to when did I leave for Sasolburg.  I do not remember activities according to days.  I would be committing myself.

MR LAX: The simple point is this.  On Mabusa Mhlongo's evidence, you weren't in Zone 12 or Small Farms during June 1993.  You were in Sasolburg on a training course.

JOHN RADEBE: Can you repeat your question please.