Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry about this, normally it happens before, but we have been asked to vacate the room because the police are coming to sweep through.
 Let us stand, let us observe a moment's silence please.

HEARING COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Dr Khoza Mgojo.

MR RICHARDS: Mr Chairman, I am sorry to interject at this stage, but my client has asked me to make a brief mention of various press reports over the weekend, to the effect that he is a self-confessed police informer.  I think those ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, can you settle.  Can you please settle, thank you very much.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you Chairperson, may I try again.

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  I welcome you all to this the sixth day of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  I want to apologise that we didn't start on time.  In part it was that this place had not been swept through with police dogs.  I trust you had a reasonable weekend and I would want to revert to the parameters that I gave the last time that we give 15 minutes to the lawyer who is leading a witness and then 15 to you Hanif and 15 to you Mr Semenya.
 Again of course we will tend - I will be guided and be flexible and then five minutes for - and don't look at me so appealingly, it will have to be five minutes because we have to finish this hearing by Wednesday.
 Mr Richard?

MR RICHARDS: Thank you Chairperson.  My client has asked me to make a brief comment on certain press reports that appeared over the weekend.  These were to the effect that he is a self-confessed informer.  As the record now stands, there is no such evidence and I must ask the press to be careful in what they report because these things do have consequences and misreporting can put people, such as Mr Richardson in considerable danger in prison.  And I would ask for accuracy to be respected, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You have already given your ruling, I don't know what you are asking me to do, because I thought I am the one who has now to say, but I was going to say exactly what you have said.  Yes, I think that we should, the media have I think on the whole been responsible and one has a very high regard for them, but I would want to urge that we don't go over the top and exercise as much restraint and certainly there can't be any compromising on accuracy.  Please those of you who have maybe erred a bit will note that.
 Then I before I call the next witness, may I just point out that in the interpreter in the headset, channel 2 is English, channel 3 is Zulu and channel 4 is Sotho.  Dr Boraine?

DR BORAINE: Chairperson, you have given me the permission to make a short statement which has nothing to do with this particular hearing, but which impacts upon the life and work of the Commission and with your permission, I would like to make the following statement.
 The Amnesty process which is taking place in South Africa was borne in controversy, there were those who urged that there should be no amnesty whatsoever, and on the other hand there were many who demanded that there should be a general amnesty without any hearings or any applications whatsoever.
 Parliament in its wisdom decided that there would be a limited amnesty, but that applications would have to be made and would have to be either dealt with administratively or heard in public, depending on the nature of the offence.
 Amnesty was granted to Trevor Tutu on Friday of last week and many of the criticisms directed by especially political parties, and organisations, of the Amnesty Committee's decision, are I believe misdirected and based on remarkable ignorance of the amnesty process.
 I want to distinguish Mr Chairperson, between division, disagreement on an amnesty decision which is fair game, the public have every right to express their views about whether someone has been given amnesty or someone hasn't been given amnesty, and we've had that.  We will continue to have that.
 But where the Commission takes the strongest exception is with those who have dared to suggest  that the Chairperson of this Commission interfered with or influenced the amnesty process in any way.
 I need hardly add that Archbishop Tutu in the view of the Commission, and I would suggest the vast majority of people in South Africa, is a man of absolute integrity and would never resort to seeking special treatment for his son's application.
 I want to underline that it was the political parties in Parliament who decided that the Amnesty Committee would be autonomous, which means that we as a Commission have no decision and no involvement in any of the applications that are made.
 As far as Trevor Tutu's application was concerned, neither the Chairperson or any other of us on the Commission, ever saw that application.  It goes directly to the Amnesty Committee.
 Those political parties and organisations and individuals who even suggest that Archbishop Tutu influenced that decision, I believe owe a public apology to the Chairperson and to the Commission and I hope very much that those apologies will be forthcoming today.
 I want to conclude by saying that it is perfectly understandable if people wish to debate the merits or otherwise of any application, that is their right, but any suggestion that either the Chairperson or any of the Commissioners had any influence over that particular application, is simply untrue and should be desisted from being stated immediately, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I now call Dr Asvat.  Good morning Dr Asvat, thank you very much for coming here and thank you for you patience in having to sit through a very long process and I do want again, on behalf of this Commission, to express our very deep and heartfelt sympathies with you and your family over the events about which you are coming to testify.
 Your brother is well known for the contribution that he made in caring for the least of God's people and for that he will always be held in very high regard.  But we know that in addition to the anguish of having lost a member of your family, there has been the pain and anguish that has arisen from all the mystery surrounding what actually did take place and we hope that you and your family will at the end of all of this, assist our country in the process of healing, the process of forgiveness and the process of reconciliation.  Thank you very much.  I presume you are going to be speaking in English?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, that is right.

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Yasmin Sooka.

EBRAHIM ASVAT: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kades?

MR KADES: Dr Asvat, before embarking on the statement that has been prepared concerning the factual basis of the submission which you will make to the Commission, you have yourself prepared a statement, a brief statement, which ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, I am so sorry to interrupt you, we have been asked because of radio, that each time a person speaks, could you identify who you are?

MR KADES: I am sorry, this is Norman Kades, appearing on behalf of the Asvat family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Dr Asvat, before leading you on the factual information which has brought you before this Commission, I understand that you have prepared a brief statement.  Yourself prepared it on behalf of the family which you wish to read to this Commission, would you please proceed?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Mr Chairperson, before I begin, may I have your permission to make a brief statement on behalf of the family of the late Dr Abu-Baker Asvat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Dr Asvat.