Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I don't understand your long, long, long question, and what I can say to you it upset me, to have gone to asked Richardson in prison, because all this subsequent information is when he is already in prison.   That I should have confronted him then with information I did not have and to tell you that honest fact of God, I believed only when he confessed, yes, that he was informer.
 I thought it part of the (indistinct) exercise, this mud slinging exercise, coming via this forum through the leaking of (indistinct) which was to be served on me.  Which contained allegations of this sort, and when I saw those allegations about him, I did not believe them.   I only believed when the man confessed here.  That is the confidence I had had in Richardson.  I wouldn't have placed (indistinct) at his place if I had the slightest shadow of doubt that he wasn't a (indistinct).

UNKNOWN: : I asked you a very specific question, and as a trained political activist, and someone who was an underground operative, I ask you a question page, 119, of the first Section 29 Inquiry.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : What is the question?

UNKNOWN: : Is it not strange that Mr Jerry Richardson was detained for a very short period, not even prosecuted when two armed ANC cadres are killed in his house and a policeman is killed in an attack in his house.  And then when Mr Semenya intervened.
 Mr Semenya said: " That question must be asked to the police who have the right to detain longer or have the right to prosecute.  It can not be the problems of prior to know whether it is strange or not strange".
 My response was: "Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has got many years experience of dealing with Security forces.  Mr Semenya intervened again.  
 "Are we being called as an expert here Mr Chairman?"
 I went on.
" I was asking her with her experience of regular harassment by police, as she has indicated to us, that did she not find this strange, I want her opinion that's all".
 The chairperson rule - "I think it is a legitimate question."
 Mr Semenya intervenes again.  "No, Mr Chairman, with respect, we will refuse to answer that question".  And he justifies it by saying that it was opinion evidence I was asking for.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : And I'm sure, it still holds the same truth.

UNKNOWN: : Let's talk about another informer.  Let's talk about Mr Mbatha.  Also known as Themba.
 In terms of the cross examining of (indistinct).
 You put to him that this Askari had returned and he was supplying information to you regarding Vlakplaas.  It this correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, it's correct.

UNKNOWN: : Was this information conveyed to the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : It was to be conveyed to the ANC through him, but it did not reach the (indistinct).

UNKNOWN: : So it is the same person that you'd been sending to the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes.

UNKNOWN: : Did he have another mission, which was to go outside the country, and contact the Press, and advise them that Stompie Seipei was in Botswana?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I could only assume that the reason why he was blown to pieces was that he knew that that was if publication, and he yet I see it in his statement.

UNKNOWN: : We've given you copies of the statements we obtained from the police in this regard.
 I must say right upfront immediately, that these were statements obtained while you were under Section 29, and I certainly would not rely on any statements in terms of Section 29.  I accept that.
 There's a statement from the police at the time that he was detained, that certain documents were found in his possession, which had notes and phone numbers of various newspapers.  SAPA Reuters News Agencies, Star City Press, Sowetan.  
 It also has a statement.  Stompie Seipei was brought to me by undisclosed (indistinct) from Mama.  I don't know if Mam is Mamelodi, or someone a person.  As he is now in (indistinct)and it goes on.....
 I want to show you copies of this, and you tell me if the handwriting is yours, or whether you recognised this writing.

MR SEMENYA: : Chairperson, I wish we were privileged enough to have some of this documentation.

UNKNOWN: : With respect, documents have been given to Mr Semenya.   We gave Mr Semenya the documents when we received them from the police, which was very recently.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Mr Chairman, I am sure you do know that that is not my handwriting, and I don't know what the purpose of asking that question, is.

UNKNOWN: : I'll tell you right now.
 I'll show you two articles.  Sowetan, 22nd February, 1989, an article on the front page, written by Mr Joshua (indistinct) and Mr Themba Molise.

CHAIRPERSON: : Would it may be convenient for you to take tea?  I think let's have a 15 minute tea break, that the other thing was not tea, and then we return by quarter past eleven.   ...be longer than the usual tea break.(indistinct)
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: : Will you please settle?   We thought you have (indistinct)  Hanif.  I thought you have absconded.  I just want to make an announcement.   It is alleged that some people wearing the uniform of the ANC Women's league, and there is an independent witness to this, harassed Mrs Seipei when she went to the ladies room.  May I just say that it is reprehensible conduct which I condemn in the strongest possible terms.  It is disgraceful.   But apart from being disgraceful, it is a criminal offence, and if I should have evidence of the people who have done that, we will lay charges against it, because it is intimidation and I've spoken about intimidation earlier in this hearing.  If it is true, you are not whoever you may be, furthering the cause of your Women's League.  I have appealed to all of us, that this hearing should be carried out with dignity.  People who may be disagreeing, and may be on all sorts of sides, but one of the things about a new dispensation on all of our democratic and constitutional rights is, is that we have, all of us, points of view which have to be respected.   But I will not permit someone who has been invited by the TRC to be subjected to the kind of behaviour that I believe these two ladies are alleged to have engaged in.
 I don't want to keep making these interventions, but I believe that what was reported to me, has been investigated by Dr Randera and he confirmed that that is the case.
 I don't want such things to characterise this hearing.  It is already an emotional and difficult hearing as it is, and we mustn't (indistinct) pains.  I appeal please, don't do it.  Just actually even in terms of ordinary humanity, that mother has lost a child that was killed gruesomely.  It is disgraceful for people who claim to be mothers to subject her to the kind of treatment that I learn Mrs Seipei was subjected to.  I hope I won't need to intervene again.  Hanif.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Mr Chairman, I think that this is a very grave allegation.  We, as Women's League, regret that very much, and we would request that we be given details of that information.  We cannot believe that any mother, let alone members of the Women's League, would be involved in that kind of conduct.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: : Hanif, are you ready?

UNKNOWN: : Thank you chairperson.
 Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, we were talking about the person referred to as Themba, and also known as Johannes Mbatha.  You confirm that he was an Askari.  Askari in absolute clarity, he was as a guerrilla who had been turned and was working for the police and you informed us that you had turned him again.  I don't know what other phrase to use.  He was an Askari who has given you information about Vlakplaas, and you were standing in to carry through the information to the ANC.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : May I just correct it there.