bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

DR GOLDIN: As you may be aware we have an ongoing, I should say, relationship with the private sector.  We believe that we can mobilise private sector funds, both South African and foreign for the use of RDP infra-structure and economic infra-structure in South Africa and the region.
 Given the back log and it's probably 200 or more billion rand, we have to bring all the resources and all the skills we have in the region and internationally to bear on the problem.
 We want to be a catalyst.  We want to support the private sector in investment and infra-structure.  We want to support the public sector.  What is crucial is that we do this on terms which we believe are acceptable;  that the corporate government, that their countability ethics, that the democratic ethics which inform our appraisal principles, inform those of anyone co-funds with us.
 We will be and are continuing to work with different private investors to see how we can maximise their contribution in these areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr Goldin, you may step down.
 I ask the representatives of Tongaat-Hulett to come forward, please.
 Good morning, gentlemen.  Sir, could you please introduce your delegation to us first.

MR SAVAGE: Thank you, Chairperson and members of the Commission.  It is our pleasure to be here this morning and thank you for inviting us.
 On my right I have Mr Chris Saunders, a very well known businessman in South Africa.  Chris Saunders has been with our company for more than 43 years.  His family, in fact, has been associated with us and in fact founded the company some 105 years ago.
 On my left I have Mr JB Makwasa.  JB has been with the company for 22 years.  JB is an executive director of the group and apart from his many responsibilities, he is chairman of Corobrick.
 Myself, group managing director, being in (indistinct) management for 20 years in the company and have really dealt with many of the nuts and bolts of the issues that the TRC is dealing with and we'll be dealing with today.
 I might say, Chairperson, members of the Commission, unlike some of the other presentations, we have been with - dealing with the issues for more than 20 years and we do hold ourselves fully accountable for what has happened;  that's the good, the bad and the indifferent.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, can I stop you before you go on, because we still need to take the oath.  We've asked Tongaat-Hulett to come today to talk specifically not about your entire company, but about the cultural sector and that's the area that you're going to be concentrating on and the involvement of Tongaat in that sector.
 Are you going to be making the presentation and are you going to be the only person speaking?

MR SAVAGE: Yes, Dr Randera and I will be directing the questions and I will make the initial submission.

CHAIRPERSON: So would you all stand to take the oath or affirmation then?

RUSSELL ALLY: The oath or the affirmation?

MR SAVAGE: The oath.

RUSSELL ALLY: The oath.

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed.
TONGAAT-HULETT:  PRESENTATION
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

MR KOMAMA: Chairperson, my apology for not mentioning that a certain Nmfado is our first assistant in our secretaries, is not coming.  Koyne September was our first vice president which make the difference that we are a boys club, because she's not around.
 These hearings are an opportunity for business to once and for all tell the truth about their role and relationship to the Apartheid Government, Mr Chairman.
 So far what we have heard, indicate that they are not prepared to confess of seeking amnesty.  It is regrettable as since it all made it impossible for Black workers to forgive.
 We are for reconciliation here, but we are also for redistribution.  We believe in social transformation.  We have already given you our documents.  Today we will just summarise the key issues and give personal experiences.
 The current general secretary, Sam Selone, will lead our input, assisted by Jay Naidoo, who was the first general secretary since 1994.
 The last two days, unfortunately I was not here, but I've got access to the press that were not alone in fighting against Apartheid.  Even the business were fighting against Apartheid.  
 But we will see from after our input whether the truth is truth or not.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SHILOWA: Chairperson, thank you very much.  I did note your comment that says however we structure our input, it's fine with us and that the time is ours.
 So, before we say, I really put - summarise very briefly in a few minutes our submission which we have.  I would want either Mr Malanga or Ngwobo, because these two were part of the workers cultural movement that sustained those workers against the oppression.

MR NGWOBO: Thank you very much.  I'll just render a short prayer.
 Today, everyone who has died, is here today.  Those who died in the struggle of the people, are there, singing with us.  They are holding our hands, just that touch moving through all our bodies like a blood stream.  Comrade Elija Faha is here today.  Noel Erken who died for the liberation of workers is here today.  Iphraim Shabalala who died the (indistinct), is here today.  Andras Ratichela, who died for us all, is here today with us, sharing this day. 
 Those who died as oppressors are here.  They weep about their past.  Their hands are swollen.  They cannot hold our hands.  I can feel their cold breath brushing my shoulders.  
 Our babies and children who died because of the system, are here playing around on this day.  They are observing and learning from us for their next lives.  
 Our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, who died confused without making up their minds, are here today.  They want to put their arms around us and sing. (indistinct).
 The oppressors, the killers, the murderers, assassins, the traitors, the izimpimpi, all those who were against our people's freedom are wandering amongst us.  They are looking closely into our eyes.  They want to speak to us about what they have done.
 Today the day has come.  Thank you.
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

MR NIKKI OPPENHEIMER: I think I would agree with that.  The country has had a miracle and now we have to take that miracle and build on it and it's no easy task, because as you so rightly say, we are still a divided society in many different ways.
 The submissions to the TRC like - I absolutely agree with Julian, is part of the process of allowing that reconciliation to take place.
 But once we've been through this process, then we have to settle down and grow together and we have to then blend with each other and feed of each other's assets and maybe we need to remember the story set out in chapter eight of the Gospel of St John at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming this afternoon.
 I ask the Steel and Engineering Federation to come forward, industries to come forward.  Are you leaving?
 Can I please ask people to settle down.  I would also like to make an appeal to those of you remaining that it's very important to listen to the rest of the submissions.
 We've had Prof Simkins sitting right through the day listening to everybody else, I think it's just courteous to listen to him at the end.  
 Prof Terblanche will also making - be making a three minute summation at the end.
 Gentlemen, welcome.  Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: ... you have 20 minutes to do your presentation, thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Are you going to take the oath or the affirmation.

MR ANGUS: The oath.

RUSSELL ALLY: The oath.

MR ANGUS: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Angus, you may proceed.
STEEL AND ENGINEERING FEDERATION:  PRESENTATION
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I believe there are no further questions.  Did you want to add something, Sir?

MR CAMPBELL: If I may?  I know you are short of time, but I'd like to just add and this is more as an employer than as a president of Seefsa, because as a president of Seefsa it's difficult to do anything other than encourage training, which we do do and as Seefsa we have a lot of training, a lot of bursaries available and most of those go to Black or disadvantaged people.
 As far as the management structure and training at company level is concerned, I totally agree with the fact that we've got to get down to it and certainly, my company, we've been doing it for quite some time now and we intend to do it considerably more into the future.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you very much for your submission.
 Can I just go straight onto Prof Simkins?  Prof, thank you sitting there and listening to all of this.  I know you have a submission.  Let me just introduce you.  You are the Professor in head of department of economics at Wits University. 
 Thank you again for the work that you've put in for today, as well as the submission you've made.
 I don't know how you want to play it?  Whether you want to speak to your submission or whether you want to integrate your submission with what you've heard today?

PROF SIMKINS: Mr Chairman, I think in the interest of time especially I'd like to integrate, I think I can do that, given the nature of my submission that I will be touching on matters not raised there as well, but which have been raised today, if that's all right with you?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can I also ask Prof Terblanche to come and sit at the table?
 You may proceed, Sir.
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-04

MR LYSTER: ... For the delay.  Prior to making any opening remarks, I'm going to call on Advocate Chris Macadam to give a broad overview of the evidence which will be heard over the next ten days.  Mr Macadam.
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-07

MR MACADAM: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I don't want to unduly interrupt, but prior to the commencement of today's proceedings there was a meeting between myself and counsel where it was agreed that we would adjourn at 4 o'clock this afternoon.  I was informed by Mr Wills, who represents the witness, that on the strength of that undertaking he made firm business commitments at 5 o'clock involving work itself in Pietermaritzburg.  Furthermore, there was an agreement that the proceedings would be adjourned tomorrow at 1 o'clock.  There is another complicating factor in that Mr Stewart, who acts for the witnesses, Dlamini and Luthuli, is only available tomorrow and furthermore the two witnesses whom he represents are
 /loaned to the
3B loaned to the Commission from the Department of Justice and for a cost - matters of finance - it would be desirable that they - evidence will possibly be finalised this week as additional expenditure will be incurred if they have to come back next week.  With all these factors, may I propose that, firstly, the cross-examination of Mr Mkhize, who is available locally, who can be brought to these proceedings without any difficulty, stand over until Monday.  Secondly, that tomorrow the witnesses, Luthuli and Dlamini take the stand.  I want to put on record I have no further new evidence from either of them and possibly, since these two persons are not in custody, that these proceedings commence tomorrow at 9 and not 10 o'clock.  This would resolve a number of practical difficulties which may arise.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, are you happy that your client be called again on Monday?

MR WILLS: My client has no objections.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is no serious objection to that and I will invite serious objection only, then I suggest that that is the way that we go.  Any serious objection?  9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1997/08/08
/PROCEEDINGS RESUMED
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Maritz.  There are - as I have said to counsel before the break, there are points of clarification which we may seek in writing, and we will address these to your client through Mr Penthorn's office.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, thank you very much.  May I also request permission to be excused a bit later.  I have other matters to attend to.  But may I also say that Mr Penthorn will remain, and I would be very grateful if, if there were any matters to be addressed, and which could be dealt with here, that Mr Penthorn be given an opportunity.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Maritz.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, I believe I am next in line, is that right?  Mr Chairman, I have ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr de Jager, sorry.  Mr de Jager, sorry, during the lunch break Mr Olivier, who appears on my left here for Colonel Buchner and others, asked whether they could make a couple of minutes - take up a couple of minutes of our time just to make their clients' submissions.

MR DE JAGER: No problem, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR OLIVIER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I will be very brief.  May I say from the outset that I echo those submissions made by my learned friend, Mr Visser, as far as they relate to the three meeting in November 1988 referred to.  This document is not an official memo or document, and the author thereof is not even known.
I must stress that my learned friend is incorrect to allege that General Buchner was not at the meetings.  As
 /far as I
far as I can recall he has no recollection of these meetings.  During the section 29 hearing General Buchner informed the Committee that he could not recollect these meetings.  I submit that those aspects raised by Varney in respect of General Buchner have been extensively dealt with by him during the section 29 inquiry, and need no further elaboration.  The Committee, through Mr Lax, also indicated on national TV that they were satisfied with the answers given by General Buchner, and it is therefore not necessary for me to elaborate any further on those aspects raised by Varney.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Pienaar - sorry, Mr Olivier.  Mr von Wielligh(?).
MR ?: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, in the circumstances of this case I have no submissions to make, and I would beg leave to be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.  Thank you, Mr von Wielligh.  Mr de Jager.
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just - Mr Interpreter, you left out the word "issued" in that translation.  Sorry.

INTERPRETER: No, it did appear, but it appeared at the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say, Mr de Vos, there's just something puzzling me here, and nobody's given us an answer to this yet, and maybe you on behalf of your clients will be able to.  We see what you're saying about Mr Varney's arguments, but when was this project actually approved?

MR DE VOS: We say, and we argued it, and we led evidence on this point - we say it was only approved - you will remember when Pitter gave evidence before you, was called upon, I said there's one important document that does not form part of the documentation before you.  Now, there was a telex dated the 8th of April '86 that was sent from Minister Malan's office to Chief of Intelligence, instructing him to go and see Mr Buthelezi.  Now, he went down and he had a meeting with Mr Buthelezi on the 16th of April to clarify certain aspects.  Now, according to the telex, this telex says - and I am going to quote the Afrikaans, paragraph 4 - I was going to get to it at a later stage.
"The Minister of Defence requested that HCI, on behalf of the Minister, the covert link of the intended organogram, in other words the part referring to creation of paramilitary force, must be sold to Mr Buthelezi.  If successful this could also serve to authorise implementation talks with Khumalo ..."
and then it goes on - no, actually what happened then is the following.  There was a meeting on the 16th, and on the 17th, the morning of the 17th, there was another
 /meeting
meeting where Minister Malan and Mr Buthelezi personally met each other, and on that date it was agreed upon.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the 17th of April 1986.  And then on the basis of that minute or decision that's when the planning was finally approved?

MR DE VOS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue.

MR DE VOS: Thank you.  Now, I am going to refer now to a covering letter that forms part of the sequence of events dated the 10th of February 1986, which accompanied Brigadier van Niekerk's document dated the 19th of December 1985.  Now, a big issue was made out of this document by Mr Varney in his report, and therefore I need to refer you to this document.  Will you bear with me for a second, I just want to find a certain place?  (Pause)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr de Vos, is this going to follow the same line as your cross-examination of Mr Varney, if I remember correctly, where essentially there was a mix up, because obviously this document couldn't have been the basis for a decision because it was written without knowledge of the decision, and so on?  Okay.
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-14

MR DE VOS: Nothing at all.  In fact at that stage - it will have a bearing in the sense that Cor van Niekerk, who was later appointed to be in charge of the whole
 /operation,
operation, probably used these inputs on behalf of himself to organise the whole thing.  But as far as the top military structure are concerned it didn't play any role, because on the 10th of February when it arrived at Geldenhuys' office he received it on the basis that it was to assist Lekanyane.  So it does not play a part at that stage.  What van Niekerk did at a later stage might be something different of course.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, just one thing puzzles me.  The document is full of references to Buthelezi, Inkatha and KwaZulu the whole way through throughout the wording of it.

MR DE VOS: No, that U agree, but that was - one must remember van Niekerk wasn't in charge of the whole project.  Groenewald was the man who made contact with Buthelezi.  Groenewald was the man who received that telex dated the 9th of December from Hans Meyer.  Groenewald was the man who went to see the Minister, and on the instructions of Groenewald van Niekerk prepared this document.  That's in - well, that's how they do it in military terms.  You prepare a document visualising what will be done by the South African Defence Force, how it will be done.  It's sort of a planning document.  They do it quite regularly.  And that's the only basis for this document.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not for one moment suggesting that this document was the basis of any decision-making as Mr Varney may try and convince us, and as you pointed out.  The point I am simply making is this document, to me at any rate, doesn't appear to relate exclusively to Bishop Lekanyane, but in fact relates to both of those two
 /groups.
groups.

MR DE VOS: That's absolutely correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the fact that is was possibly referred to for the wrong purposes by Mr Varney, that's a different issue.  I accept that completely.  I am just wondering in general terms whether I am correct in my understanding of the document.

MR DE VOS: We are in complete agreement with your understanding of the document.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DE VOS: I am now moving on to another document that refers to a meeting that took place on the 12th of February 1986 between General Groenewald and Chief Minister Buthelezi.  In order to ascertain the needs of Chief Minister Buthelezi a meeting was held on the 12th of February 1986 between General Groenewald and the Chief Minister at Ulundi.  General Groenewald was accompanied by various other military personnel, including Colonel C J van Niekerk.  General Groenewald first met alone with Dr Buthelezi to determine his needs and aims with a paramilitary force.  Paragraph 3 (b) of this document contains a clear indication of what Chief Minister Buthelezi told General Groenewald.  Groenewald says - I quote in Afrikaans.
INTERPRETER
"An offensive capacity or a protective element..."
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-14

MR DE VOS: Varney refers to this as the operations room.  Compare page 298, line 15-17.  Now, again a situation room and an operations room is not the same thing.  It's the same thing that we had right at the beginning of his report where he also made a mistake in describing the - sorry, let me get the right word.  (Pause)  Yes, sorry, right at the beginning, when we referred - it was on our heads, page 17, paragraph 9.2.4, where Varney referred to a Joint Security Centre, whereas the correct translation would have been the Joint Security System.  Now we've got exactly the same sort of thing here, where he's talking about an operations room which is in fact a situation room.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr de Vos, what is a situation room, if you can enlighten me?
Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-14

MR LASSIDGE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I will start off by dealing with the allegations contained in the section 30 notices addressed to our clients, specifically the one addressed to Dr Buthelezi.
We have to express our reservations about the manner in which the allegations have been framed.  For example, the allegations against Dr Buthelezi consist of documents compiled by the military during the period in question.  The problem is that these so-called quotes are misquotes, or where they are correctly quoted they are quoted totally out of context.  The result of this is clear.  It has had the effect of creating a misleading, damaging, and
 /prejudicial
prejudicial series of alleged facts, which the media and the public at large can latch onto and interpret as the truth.  We find it disturbing that such misquotes and/or quotes out of context find their way into such notices, that are in effect indictments, and which are endorsed by the very Chairman who is enjoined to objectively and impartially hear evidence at these proceedings.  We know that this is not a court of law, but it is an elementary principle of natural justice that the judge does not draw the indictment, but the prosecutor.
In support of our averments we quote hereunder a few examples.  Paragraph 18 at page 8 of the indictment, as we call it, dealing with the signal sent from Malan's office to ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, with respect, Mr Lassidge, please don't refer to it as an indictment.  You know very well it is no such thing.  Really, it's absolutely unprofessional to do that, with respect.

MR LASSIDGE: Well, as it pleases you, Mr Lax.  I'll then call it the allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: Call it the section 30 notice.  That's what it is.
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR HAYSOM: The fact that it is in camera does not preclude a full tape transcript of the proceedings subject only to the same remarks which would be made in respect of the transcript. In other words if there happens to be an application for an excision of a particular document or a particular chemical formulae and you agree to it then that same excision could be made in the tape recording. And I would understand that you do keep full tape recording of the proceedings. There is nothing to stop the same process, in fact I had assumed that there would be a full TV transcript of the proceedings and the same remarks would apply. So we think, you know that would be a process of dealing with all those particular objections.

MR NTSEBEZA: I just wanted it to be on the record. You will be surprised.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions for the panel. Hanif is there anything that you want to say?

MR VALLY: Yes thank you Archbishop. I will be very brief in my response Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR RANDERA: No, but I understand that.  What has that got to do with Chemical and Biological Warfare?  You know when you're talking about warfare you're talking about two armies in a situation.  What has the normal population got to do with chemical and biological warfare?
 And to come back to your earlier point, was it to do with controlling any part of the culture that prevailed at that time, that this had nothing, given the money that went into it, I mean we are not talking about a small amount of money and time that went into it, and regardless of what Doctor van Rensburg said yesterday, that this had to do with the initial appeal by the UNITA forces, that their female soldiers were getting pregnant and they were the best soldiers, was this essentially again, given that it was outside the realm of Chemical and Biological Warfare as I understand it, it was really just to control people and maintain the status which was maintaining the white status at that time?

DR GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, yes, it's speculation, in my mind I think that is the possibility to maintain the status quo.  The other aspect which I also, which we considered in the whole time is, this is a problem, the high birth rate and the balance between the black population and the white population.
 There was even a time period if I remember correctly, when it was propagated openly by the politicians that the white people must have bigger families because we are being outnumbered, so we must increase our family size to have this balance.   So I think it was in those types of prevailing sentiments that this project was conceived.

DR RANDERA: Just a last question.  Just let me take you to your dog compound, a dog facility that you had.  On many an occasion when I've been at a demonstration and police dogs would come along and we would always say: "Those are racist dogs" because they seemed to be attacking black people rather than white people.  Now, as part of your training, is that what you actually did?  Was there a way of training these dogs to that level?

DR GOOSEN: No ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And indeed it was a popular myth.  It's a very serious one you know, that dogs were specifically trained to attack black people.

DR GOOSEN: No, Mr Chairman.  The training that we did was definitely, I can definitely deny it, that we haven't bred a specific racist dog.

DR RANDERA: Other than that, but in your training ...[intervention]

DR GOOSEN: No, in the training ...[intervention]

DR RANDERA: In the Pavlovian principle way.

DR GOOSEN: Most of our trainees were black handlers, to start with.  For ESCOM that was our initial intake.  So the training procedures were non person, it was on command indoctrination, repetitive indoctrination on command.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Potgieter?

ADV POTGIETER: No, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Doctor Daan Goosen, you are excused.

DR GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, thank you, and like Doctor Neethling I would say: "Good Luck".

CHAIRPERSON: We need it.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

ADV POTGIETER: General, I'm sorry, can I just ask you, the people that do the translation have actually got to try to keep up with you and they say it's quite a competition at this stage.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I'm very sorry Mr Chairman.

ADV POTGIETER: Would you bear that in mind?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I'm trying to use as little time as possible.

ADV POTGIETER: I appreciate that.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I'll try to do it a little more slowly, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry Mr Chairperson and then just as far as Mr Kennedy is concerned I don't hold a brief for him but we had discussed this before and he is here. In so far as his attendance at meetings and briefings with General Knobel that doesn't present a problem and if those specific references are made to report on Operation Cloud we have already indicated that, that also wouldn't present a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well Mr Arendse. Mr Vally in the next 17 minutes.

MR VALLY: Do I carry on with General Knobel?

CHAIRPERSON: It is up to you Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: That is what my intention was I was just wondering regarding the response about Mr Mike Kennedy. Can we specifically ask Mr Mike Kennedy to make an affidavit along the lines suggested by General Knobel on the basis that Mr Kennedy is present today.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure that is something that you can arrange. I can't order that from where I sit. I am sure it is an acceptable arrangement.

MR VALLY: Is it acceptable to General Knobel?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Chairman in my statement this morning I actually suggested two things. I said it would be - I have requested Mr Mike Kennedy whether he would make an affidavit of his own and I suggested that he should be called for testimony. It would be acceptable for me if he makes a statement but I want the Commission to understand that I have a feeling that at a later stage in this hearing or possibly in the future questions put to me I will begin to have to reflect in what is written in this report. And I will have to give some background information there as I did this morning with regards to all the other appendices that I gave. And if you will allow me I will give an example.
 The report certainly has lots of documentary evidence that is run with the report but like the ones that I had on the table this morning that is a piece of paper which is very patient and has a lot of things written on it. But the discussion around what is written there is really what I would like to bring out. I am not sure if that can all be brought out in a statement. But I would be happy if that is the arrangement.

CHAIRPERSON: I hear you. Mr Vally I think this is something that is validly put and maybe that is something that you should think about. But in any event we have enough as things stand at the moment for us to read to proceed but that is homework for you and possibly Mr Arendse. If Mr Toyeli perhaps in his capacity as legal representative of General Knobel I think this is something that I would rather you thrashed out at that level. You have got 15 minutes more.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. General Knobel if we can carry on where we left off. What do you understand to be the responsibilities of a project leader?
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: The only expert you had from the chemical side was Brigadier Basson again?

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.  And later on Colonel Steyn of course.

MR VALLY: Well Colonel Steyn's name is on there.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: But Colonel Steyn and Brigadier Basson worked together at various times?

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, you and I ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: I'm asking you a question ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: You and I are also working together now and I worked with Colonel Steyn, are you now suggesting that I couldn't have trusted Colonel Steyn either?

MR VALLY: No, my question is very simple, that this Coordinating Management Committee agreed to pay R250 000 for a formula and for a substance which they knew nothing about except Brigadier Basson, is that correct?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, that's correct.  But we had some documentation also from Doctor Koekemoer.  Have you read the document of Doctor Koekemoer where he in fact says that this saved us a lot of money?

MR VALLY: Doctor Koekemoer was very nervous about making ecstasy and went to see General Neethling about it.

DR KNOBEL: That may be true but his nervousness does not come out of this document that we had in front of us at the Coordinating Management Committee, there he gives us the facts that we asked him for.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm certainly nervous about whether or not we are going to be finishing today and that having been your invitation Mr Vally, I think this would be a convenient stage to take the adjournment until 9 o'clock and I would hope that by lunchtime we will have finished.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

DR KNOBEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS TILL 8TH JULY 1998 AT 09H00
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

MR VALLY: Very finally, you did mention after your arrest that you went back and you scratched around and you found some report?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what was in that report?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes, it was a pyrolysis report with MX and I believe there was cannabis in it and diphenal amine.

MR VALLY: Do you have a copy of that report?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I have only one copy and that is in my - Graham has got it.

MR VALLY: Your attorney?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes and I think that we did tell the Attorney General about this.

MR VALLY: Right, we would - as you can see from you subpoena it has been requested for documents as well relating to the subject matter of you subpoena.  Maybe we can arrange with your attorney for us to get a copy thereof?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Of course.

MR VALLY: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that now the very very very final question Mr Vally.  Well, thank you very much Dr Johan Koekemoer for having come.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm sure the panel as well as the investigative team will have a further insight into the workings of Delta G after you've testified.  On the basis that the legal representatives of people who are, who may be implicated by your evidence, indicated you are released and excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Polsen?

MR POLSEN: I would like to deal with Mr Vally with regard to this particular report after I've had the opportunity of identifying the document and clearing it up with the Attorney General whose interest I also represent in this particular matter.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any other clients whom you'll be representing.

MR POLSEN: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, okay.  We will adjourn for lunch until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Vally.  You've asked my question for me.  Thank you.
 Dr van Rensburg you will be cross-examined as arranged.  You are excused for now.

DR VAN RENSBURG: Sorry did you say I will be or will not be?

CHAIRPERSON: You will be.

DR VAN RENSBURG: Will be.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

DR VAN RENSBURG: Good.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I believe you are calling further evidence Mr Vally?
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: 08h30 tomorrow morning.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Chairman, may this witness be excused please?

CHAIRPERSON: I would assume so.  Mr van Zyl, you ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: I've got no questions, thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Dr Odendal.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just confirm with my colleagues?
 It is quite clear that due to the lateness of the hour we should be inclined to granting the request by Mr Vally without even hearing you, the request, submission made by Mr Cilliers.  How we are looking at this, we would also like to have the opportunity to get copies of the authorities that have been cited.  I never thought the day would arise when I have to do that, I thought in the Commission I'm not a lawyer, I'm the Head of the Investigation Unit but you never know, it catches up with you.  
 We would like to make a tentative arrangement which runs as follows:  That the matter stand down, this particular matter stands down until such time as counsel have been able to provide to each other the authorities that they want to provide and/or look at them and until such time as we will also have been provided with copies of the relative judgements, which might be tomorrow or possibly Friday. 
 In the meantime I would like to indicate that the panel is of the view that if there is other evidence that would have been called, that that evidence be called tomorrow.  I was of the impression that that is Mr Goosen and Generals Lothar Neethling and Niel Knobel.  If an arrangement can be made for those to be available tomorrow.

MR CILLIERS: If I can assist you, Doctor Neethling is the person who has the medical problem but an arrangement has been made.  He will land at approximately 9 o'clock tomorrow morning and be available from half past nine.  I have already consulted with him, so the position is that if you need him here you can call him whenever it suits you.  He is the available in the vicinity of nine thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: That's very helpful Mr Cilliers.  And Doctor Knobel?

MR CILLIERS: General Knobel is here and he is available.

CHAIRPERSON: So can we then tentatively say the matter is, this particular matter is stood down until it can be reinstated, that tomorrow we take further evidence, such further evidence as is available and that we are adjourned until tomorrow morning at nine.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

DR RANDERA: I think we should start and I would like to therefore call Miss Audrey Coleman.

MS MKHIZE: Order please.  Welcome to this afternoon's session.  I just want to announce the order in which we will be asking you to come forward.  The first person now after lunch, is Miss Audrey Coleman.  Audrey Coleman.  She will be followed by the second person who will be Miss Diana Scott, who will be followed by Prof Ransom, that is witness number three.
 Number four will be Madlhadi Moremi.  Number five George Ndlozi, number six, Marjory Nkomo, number seven, Fatima Moosa, number  representative of the Junior Rapportryers, number nine Miss M. Ranhla.
 Miss Coleman, we have been with you since this morning.  I would like to welcome you and having looked at your submission, it fits in nicely from what we heard earlier on based on Dr Coleman's presentation and the students' play.
 I would ask you to summarise your submission, so as to give Commissioners an opportunity to ask you specific questions.  Please go ahead.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

CHAIRPERSON: Our last witness for today is Sandra Adonis and I ask her to come to the stage with her briefer.  Sandra, being the last witness is probably the most difficult of all, because you have to sit and hear so much pain and heartache and tears, but you know that you have your own still to tell and we thank you very much for your patience and we welcome you here as our last witness of these special hearings today.  Mary Burton is going to swear you in and then lead your evidence as well.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

SANDRA ADONIS: (Duly sworn in, states).

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  Are you alright, you are feeling comfortable and you can hear me alright?  The microphones do also provide sound amplification so if you do not hear me very well you can always wear them to hear in English as well.  Well, thank you again for the long day that you have waited and for coming today to speak in front of us.  You are going to tell us about your own experience as a young teenager and about that of your husband.  So please go ahead and tell us in your own words.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much.  The story you have told is so rich in so many aspects of the experience of people of your age and I could see that some of the time you were actually reliving those moments in your own history.  It has given us as extraordinarily vivid picture of what it was like to be 15, to be thrust into a leadership position in a SRC and the other unfolding things that happened to you.  It is true that the SCRs' at that time were a testing ground and a training ground for leadership and they pushed people, perhaps, beyond what anybody should be pushed and they created leaders.  Our first witness today spoke about how people have aged years in weeks and I think that is something that happened to you.  You spoke, for instance, of the way families could not protect their children.  One of the most terrible experiences for parents is not to be able to provide that haven for children.  You have spoken of disrupted education.  I think one of the things we really hope for for young people like you is that it is not too late.  I know how hard that is sometimes to accept, but is, there are opportunities.
 I thought it was very valuable that you said, just in passing, that some things that you and other people in BMW did are things that you are not proud of.  One of the things we have to remind ourselves in this hearing about children and youth is that things were done which were wrong things to do which hurt other people, but that was part and parcel of the reality of the time and it is important that that is  acknowledged.  As you said, you may not be proud of the things you did, but of the reasons why they were done and you spoke, I think, one of the big tragedies of the way that the system broke peoples' trust in one another and we have heard other stories like that today of people being accused of having informed against others or people being forced to inform against others and the damage that does to trust and in human relationships which is very hard to come back from, to learn to trust people again.  So, I thank you for that really, really rich testimony.  I do not have any questions.  I do not know if any of my colleagues do.  No.  Then I would really just like to thank you very, very much and to wish you well.  Thank you.

SANDRA ADONIS: Thank  you.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

DR RANDERA: As the people are settling down, may I make a few announcements.  I have the permission of the Chairperson by the way.
 The first announcement that I want to make is that if there are people in the hall today who want to make statements, there are statement takers in the foyer who are waiting for you and who will take your statement today.
 Secondly, I want to acknowledge witnesses who have made statements and who are sitting in the hall here today.  I am sorry that some of you have come along thinking that you will be making a statement today, but we are not able to do that.
 Thirdly, I just want to explain again to those people who have made statements and feel that just because they are not coming to a public hearing, that there statement is not being considered.  The Truth Commission have accepted, the Human Rights Violations Committee have accepted 10 500 statements up till now.  Only 17% of those people have come to a public hearing.
 That does not mean that we are not looking at all the other statements.  Every statement is given the same weight within the Commission and given the same amount of investigative work.
 We are going through all those statements at the present time, and we will be contacting those individuals as soon as possible.
 What I would like to emphasise though, is that you should have received a letter, those people who have made statements, should have received a letter with a reference number so that if you want to phone the Commission yourselves and enquire as to what is happening, all you need to do is to quote that number if you haven't received that letter, please contact us at our office here in Johannesburg, thank you very much.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Fazel.  I will ask Mr and Mrs Coleman to come forward please.  Dr Coleman, in welcoming you, I would just like to say the Commission is grateful to have your submission.
 We have looked at your submission, we will really ask you to try to summarise it if possible, within 10 minutes, so that Commissioners can engage with you and ask you critical questions around your submissions.  But we have read all that you are going to say, so we are just asking for a brief presentation.

DR COLEMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  I will do my best to shorten it - as you will appreciate it is a great deal of information contained in this submission.  It is very concentrated as it is and I will try to  reduce it.
 The submission comes basically from the monitoring ...

MS MKHIZE: Excuse me, I will ask Joyce Seroke to assist you to take an oath.  We think this is important so we will prefer that you take an oath.  Joyce Seroke?

DR COLEMAN: (sworn states)

MS MKHIZE: Please go ahead.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: To young people I just want to say, I mean what Dr Coleman has taken us through, it is really a difficult text in terms of our history, especially as he has given this perspective saying young people of your age went through those kinds of experiences.
 The language as presented by Dr Coleman might be complexed, but issues that he has raised, I should think as you go back to your school, you will be able to initiate debates and talks about how in this country we should come up with policies or debates which will protect young people of your age in future.
 Thank you very much Dr Coleman.  I would like to propose a few changes to our programme.  According to our programme, we are supposed to have Miss Audrey Coleman, but we will ask her to be the first person after lunch.  So what we are going to do now, we are going to ask students from Usab Technical Secondary School to give us a short play.
 I understand the play will take 10 to 15 minutes.  It says it deals with June 16, 1976 and what happened on that day, so I will ask those students to come forward.  Since we will now be going to sit down as Commissioners, again I have a long list of people who are guests, I am not going to go through them, except that I will really just talk in terms of organisational structures that we have a Mayor amongst us, quite a number of schools and at the end of the day, we will really give names and properly acknowledge people and members of Parliament and some national NGO's.
 We thank you very much for supporting this work, but at the end of the day your names will be called out properly.  What we are going to try to do, we are asking that we come back - after the play we will go out for lunch and we will come back here at ten to two, so as to try and make up in terms of our programme.  So I will ask the students to come on the stage please.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  Thank you to your Mrs Machel.  I just want to say thank you very much.  I should think you have assisted many young people out there by articulating and naming some of the experiences which they might be struggling with and not knowing how to address them.
 I remember as a Commission when we finally decided to have children and youth hearings, we were not sure as to how to observe what you are saying to give a child a voice, visibility, but we acknowledged that we need to prioritise them in this process, so ultimately we said look, because we don't have the capacity to contain very young people, we will get people who will make submissions on their behalf.
 And I should think really the exposition that you have given, it serves a purpose of helping particularly very, very young people who have seen a lot in this country, to begin to think and make sense and even name some of the atrocities that you talked to because for a young person there is no language for facing a gunman, for facing a situation where you witness a parent being killed or any of the human rights violations that we are struggling with.
 So I thank you very much.  I hope you will cooperate with us as we move towards the drafting of the final report, people who have made submissions, we hope they will be of help in assisting us with whatever information we might need.  Thank you very much.