Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: "It was at that meeting that we learned that member of ANC WL had died."
Is that correct?

ANSWER: Members of ANC WL sir?

JUDGE WILSON: : ...had died at the meeting.   In your statement you...

ANSWER: When we were at the meeting when a report was taken out, other people believed that Mrs (indistinct) died because she was injured but truly she wasn't dead, she is still alive even today.
3.	JUDGE /...
110	P LEBONA

JUDGE WILSON: : I'm reading from your statement that you have said was correct.   You then go on to say
"Anger amongst our people was at its highest state and when the leadership tried to rationalise the crowd to take Zenzile to the police station, they were defied."
Do you remember saying that?

ANSWER: Yes I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: : You went on to say
"They were defied because the masses said the police had failed and will not charge or arrest the deceased Zenzile."
Do you remember saying that?

ANSWER: I remember very well.

JUDGE WILSON: "Zenzile was unfortunately shot by Peter Lebona, (accused No 1)."
Did you say that?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: "Stoned and beaten to death by the angry crowd."

ANSWER: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: "The effort of the leaders to save Zenzile failed."

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : There is no mention in your statement about Zenzile drawing a pistol or about you shooting him to protect your people who were there.

ANSWER: I forgot to include that in my statement but he had a gun.
3.	JUDGE /...
111	P LEBONA

JUDGE WILSON: : You forgot to include perhaps the most important element.

ANSWER: I just forgot because this statement was written while I was two years in prison.

JUDGE WILSON: : Forgot that you shot him because he had a gun?

ANSWER: I knew that he had a gun but I don't know what happened that I forgot that he had a gun with him.

JUDGE WILSON: : You made no mention in your evidence today about the effort of the leaders to save Zenzile did you?

ANSWER: No I didn't tell you that.

JUDGE WILSON: : Why not, you said it in your statement?

ANSWER: Those are the things I forgot really.

JUDGE WILSON: : There is nothing in your statement indicating that Zenzile was taken away from the mass meeting to the police station.   What you say in your statement is that the crowd refused to allow the leadership to do this.

ANSWER: Yes the crowd refused but an order was taken out to be, to take him to the police station.

JUDGE WILSON: : You in your statement said
"They were defied because the masses said the police had failed..."
and that he was then killed.   Your statement, as I read it, says the order was given but it was defied by the masses and that they then killed the deceased because of their anger.  You say that is not the truth?

ANSWER: There was an order to take the deceased to the police station but they masses were behind us and they said the police have failed and they wanted to have clear clarity as to whether we were taking the deceased to the police station, but after I shot at him they stoned him.
3.	JUDGE /...
112	P LEBONA

JUDGE WILSON: : But were you taking him to the police station as you told us today?

ANSWER: Yes we were taking him to the police station.

JUDGE WILSON: : You see what you said today was you were taking him to the police station and on the way to the police station people from the meeting followed us, that's all you've told us today.

ANSWER: Yes they were following us from the mass meeting.

JUDGE WILSON: : In your statement originally when you applied for amnesty, the statement you put up was that the killing took place at the mass meeting because the crowd wouldn't let you take him away.

ANSWER: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: : That is what all your other co-accused say.  Have you anything further you wish to say about that?

ANSWER: There is nothing that I can tell you sir.

JUDGE WILSON: : Can you tell us, and I can quite understand if you aren't able to tell us, about when these three women were raped, when they built the shack for them and raped them?   Can you give any idea of when that was?

ANSWER: I forget the date and the day because it's a long time ago but it was in 1990 when this took place, it was in 1990.

JUDGE WILSON: : Can you tell us when the other crime was committed when he poured paraffin over Mdevu and burned him?

ANSWER: I can't remember the date, was it early 1991 or late 1990.

JUDGE WILSON: : It was after the women in any event?

ANSWER: That was after the three women were raped.

MR DE JAGER: About the three women being raped, was Ndlameni the only person present, was he the only
3.	perpetrator /...
113	P LEBONA
perpetrator?

ANSWER: He wasn't alone but the others were not known.  He was notorious because he was first a member of the ANC and he crossed the floor and he became the leader of this Kofifi group.

MR DE JAGER: The other incident when the other woman was raped, was he the only one present or were there other people present too?

ANSWER: There were people who raped with him but we couldn't get hold of them, they only appeared in the court of law when they were supposed to appear.

MR DE JAGER: So they were arrested and in fact appeared in court for the rape?

ANSWER: No they were only going to testify because of the death of the deceased.

MR DE JAGER: Did the woman in fact die who was raped or did they testify about the death of Ndlameni?

ANSWER: The were testifying for the death of Ndlameni.

JUDGE WILSON: : Could I ask one question there, were they present when Ndlameni was killed?

ANSWER: According to the evidence they gave in the court of law they said they had binoculars in their hands and they saw clearly what was happening.

UNKNOWN: : Mr Lebona you are obviously aware that a fundamental requirement for you to be granted amnesty is that you must be honest and give a full disclosure of the act in respect of which you are applying for amnesty.   You are aware of that?

ANSWER: I am aware of that.

UNKNOWN: : Did you give evidence at your trial where you were convicted of murder?
3.

ANSWER: /...
114	P LEBONA

ANSWER: Everything I said before the court of law was
lies.

UNKNOWN: : Was the name Burota(?) mentioned in court, do you know Mr Burota, Modike Burota?

ANSWER: I do not know such a person.

UNKNOWN: : ....deceased because you wanted to save lives, that's the evidence you have given.

ANSWER: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: : If the deceased had not pulled out a gun, you would not have shot him?

ANSWER: I would have never shot at him.

UNKNOWN: : Notwithstanding the fact that he was a cancer in your area, harassing the community?

ANSWER: Irrespective of the acts he did, the order was to take him to the police station but because of him pulling out his gun, I shot him.

UNKNOWN: : How many people were present and were part of the crowd at the time of the shooting?

ANSWER: The people who were following us could have been more than 600 in number, we were eight in number escorting the deceased and this large group was behind us.

UNKNOWN: : How far away from the eight comrades was the large group, how far was the 600-strong members of the community from the eight comrades?

ANSWER: They were a distance from where I'm sitting right to the door.

UNKNOWN: : ...comrades to Mr Ndlameni?

ANSWER: We were, he was in the middle and then the comrades were beside him and others behind him.

UNKNOWN: : At that stage they were just walking normally or were you still manhandling him?
3.

ANSWER: /...
115	P LEBONA

ANSWER: No we were just walking, he was walking free.

UNKNOWN: : At that stage after he had, in your belief, murdered Nabo (indistinct) that is the name of the woman who was supposed to have died at that stage?

ANSWER: To be honest I was disturbed about this issue I don't know about the other comrades but the order was to take him to the police station.