Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

WALTER SMILES: This is something that happened four years ago, I may have just forgotten.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Smiles, four years ago you would have remembered better than you remember today?

WALTER SMILES: I remember that I took out the hand grenade while we were under way.

ADV DE JAGER: What I want to put to you is, this is something that happened a long time ago and you can forget about it but something which happened a month ago you would tend to remember.  You would remember better after one month than after four years.

WALTER SMILES: I was given time to think about this whole thing, this thing I just forgot.

PROF DE KOKER: If we can return to the skippa T-shirt that you were wearing, can you describe it to us?

WALTER SMILES: I can't remember, I've got so many clothes, I can't remember exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you begin to describe a skippa - that it has two arms ...[indistinct] or are you saying to him: "What is the colour of that T-shirt"?  Otherwise I wouldn't know how to begin to describe the skippa.

WALTER SMILES: Thank you Mr Chairman, as it pleases you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Professor de Koker, are you not trying to ascertain how baggy the skippa was?

PROF DE KOKER: And also the cut.  I'm just trying to find out how it appears, I'm not quite certain about this skippa T-shirt.
	This skippa T-shirt, did it have long sleeves or short sleeves?

WALTER SMILES: I just said I can't remember, I had a lot of clothes and some of them I've given away - it's a long time back and people forget.

PROF DE KOKER: Was it a T-shirt or a jersey - pullover?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain to me very clearly what you're saying, you're confusing me - you must make it easier for me to understand.

PROF DE KOKER: Yesterday and today you told us you were wearing a T-shirt, a skippa T-shirt, is that correct?  Do you still think you were wearing a skippa T-shirt?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: This skippa T-shirt - I'm trying to understand what this skippa T-shirt looked like.

WALTER SMILES: Please explain to me again Professor de Koker.

ADV DE JAGER: If you can't describe the T-shirt, is there a difference between a T-shirt and a jersey - a pullover?

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't wearing a jersey, I was wearing a T-shirt.

ADV DE JAGER: What is the Afrikaans word for a jersey?

WALTER SMILES: We're talking the township Afrikaans.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Professor de Koker, I'm sure you do know what a T-shirt is really.  I think you must try and move on.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know the word: "trui", the Afrikaans word for jersey?

WALTER SMILES: No, I do not know that word.

ADV DE JAGER: So, you have never heard that word, you don't know what it means?

WALTER SMILES: No.  I know it's something you can put on, I don't know whether it's something warm or what it is exactly, I don't know.

PROF DE KOKER: So the word: "trui" - jersey, you don't know?

WALTER SMILES: No.

PROF DE KOKER: But in paragraph 9 of your '93 statement, the fourth or fifth sentence from above, the one about the hand grenade you say
"There were people surrounding me but I'm sure they did not notice me because I kept it under my jersey - "trui"
The word "trui" was used.

WALTER SMILES: This was written by a person who knew Afrikaans very well, I didn't say that, it was the way he's written it - he corrected it.

PROF DE KOKER: Who was the person that wrote it in that very good Afrikaans?

WALTER SMILES: Isaacs wrote it, he's very, very good in Afrikaans.

PROF DE KOKER: I think you are trying to get the witness to describe the T-shirt in such a way that you can possibly be able to argue and say: "It is not possible for him to have put the hand grenade in that T-shirt" in the way in which the T-shirt has been described.
	I don't think really you'll be able to ...[indistinct] and if it may - I would suggest that during tea time - if you have got a friend who is a reasonably experienced member of the security branch, just ask him during tea time what sort of weapons they used to find on people on their bodies - hidden in their bodies.  He may give you some information about that.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr Chairman, unfortunately I do not have those kind of contacts.  That was also not the purpose of my question, what worried me was the use of the word "trui" in the 1993 declaration but I think we've cleared that matter now, thank you very much.
	Mr Smiles, after this '93 statement, what happened to it, what did you do then?

WALTER SMILES: I was taken to the police station with this statement.

PROF DE KOKER: Who took you to the police station?

WALTER SMILES: The commander and Rodney Isaacs.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened when you got there?

WALTER SMILES: As we got there on the 7th floor, there's a security gate and one White man came out, I don't know his name and then it was explained to him: "This is Smiles, this is the man who threw the hand grenade".  What we were told was: "Take Mr Smiles away, you're just confusing everything, the ANC can do with him what it likes", we couldn't do anything.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles, you know that someone is sitting in jail?

WALTER SMILES: That is right.

PROF DE KOKER: That man says he did it, he threw the hand grenade.

WALTER SMILES: I'm explaining it now, it can't be him.

PROF DE KOKER: Why would he say something like this?

WALTER SMILES: I don't know, maybe you should ask him.

PROF DE KOKER: Were you ever asked by Advocate Potgieter or Mr Isaacs to testify in the case of those people?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, this was before they were sentenced and I was happy to take that case.

PROF DE KOKER: I didn't quite follow that, just please repeat that.

WALTER SMILES: I would like you to ...[intervention]

PROF DE KOKER: I asked, were you ever asked by Advocate Denzil Potgieter or Mr Isaacs to testify in that case?

WALTER SMILES: I was asked to do that, yes.  I was told: "It was your fault, you've got to go and stand in for it, go and make a statement"

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not the question Mr Smiles, the question was: "Were you ever asked to testify in favour of these people"?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I was asked.

PROF DE KOKER: And did you testify in that case?

WALTER SMILES: We was chased away at the police station, so what can we do?  The court didn't want to accept us, the police didn't want to accept us, nobody wanted to accept us.   (transcriber's own translation)

PROF DE KOKER: There might be a misunderstanding here.  You were asked to make that statement which you did, did they ask you to go and stand in the witness box in court?

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't charged, so I couldn't go and stand in the witness box.  They said they felt they had the right people, so we couldn't do anything.

PROF DE KOKER: So no-one ever asked you to go and stand in the box during the court case - not the police, not the Attorney General, not the Advocate?

WALTER SMILES: I asked to stand in for this matter but not to go and stand in the witness box.

ADV DE JAGER: Nobody asked you to be a witness in that case?

WALTER SMILES: I was the accused but I wasn't asked to testify.

ADV DE JAGER: In the other case there were other accused but nobody asked you to go and stand in the box and say: "These people are innocent, I'm the one who did it" and to tell the Judge that?

WALTER SMILES: I couldn't do it because no dossier had been opened.  The court accepts a dossier, it doesn't accept a person.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but the advocates and the lawyers, they did not ask you?

WALTER SMILES: No, Mr de Jager.

PROF DE KOKER: What did you do after you left the police station and they said they didn't want to listen to you?

WALTER SMILES: We left, we walked away.

PROF DE KOKER: What did you do then?

WALTER SMILES: I went home, what else could I do?

PROF DE KOKER: Did you know these people were being charged in court?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I knew.