Special Hearings — Legal Hearings — 1997-10-27

MR MCNALLY: : There was stage where the prosecution was being criticised for using so-called draconian powers given to them by security legislation. And Mr van Lieres thought that a good content to that criticism would be to make a more liberal use of common law crimes. And I believe that the process started with the case of the State versus Twala before judge van Dyk. It was a sedition case and probably one of the first sedition cases we'd had in South Africa for many a year. And judge van Dyk did indeed convict Twala and his companions of sedition as I remember. But it wasn't something that was necessarily practised by all attorneys general. It was a thought that Mr van Lieres had which he practised in his own division. And it was something that I personally found fairly attractive because it did tend to ward off criticisms that we were applying draconian legislation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr McNally. Denzil?

MR POTGIETER: Can I just ask whether you would want to comment on, and a submission that was put before us and we might very well hear it in the course of these proceedings again by a security policeman suggesting that in a security related matter, it could be an inquest - it doesn't matter, it's immaterial for present purposes. He was for example approached by the prosecutor, told what questions he would asked at the proceeding, I think it was an inquest. Given the answers and also being advised on what the outcome was going to be, what the magistrate's finding would be. How does that gel with your experience, are you bewildered, shocked? That's the one point.
 And perhaps the other one I can't resist and I'm not harping on this to put anybody in the spot. But one can't help but being left with a sense of unease about your position in regard to the national directive. One can't help but being left with a sense of some residual resistance. Although you have indicated I think via Mr McNally that you had fought a battle and that you are now committed to this. What is your position in a word on that? Are there respects in which you held reservations and those were not met in the eventual legislation which still makes you feel uncomfortable or what?

MR D' OLIVEIRA: Madam Chair the first question I know pertains to my jurisdiction. That particular security policeman spoke to me. Although he is an accused being prosecuted by me, I was absolutely shocked by this that a party, rather a person who is a prosecutor was allegedly a party to this. Inquiries have been made. I cannot reveal any particulars because I think the person he's talking about is an (...indistinct) person. You'd have to give that person notice first. It is before my time but I'm following up on it. I know very well the allegation made by and I know the person whose made it. The particular person is no longer with us. He's a (...indistinct) grace the bar at the moment but he'd have to answer for himself. But should I find any evidence of defeating the ends of justice I will pursue it since I find that. There's someone behind me talking Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ignore the comments from the gallery please.

MR D'OLIVEIRA: This we deal with in court when we appear before the bar Madam chair and it's not easy, first of all. Secondly the question of the unease, appreciate your unease. The situation was there's no unease with the concept. The concept is fully accepted. We told minister Omar that again on the 20th of June in Cape Town this year, all of us. In fact I endeavoured when we heard that the constitutional assembly was debating it I endeavoured with my colleague in Johannesburg to get through to them and say here is a way to approach it. Politically we can't say. It's the will of the people. Fine we accept it. I have serious reservations about the formulation of section 179. I think it's unworkable. We've undertaken however to make it workable and we are committed to that. I personally am committed.
 But in the question raised by Dr Rayner and other aspects independence of first the national directive by the prosecution and the super attorney general is not constitutionally secure. Any government can come and make legislation and appoint let's say Nick Mallett of the Springboks to become national attorney general and there are no qualifications, no requirements whatsoever. And that, that would be constitutional. We might do better than the person (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming today. We value your submissions and of course the response to the questions. And no doubt they have been uncomfortable at times but we will of course be interacting with you as more evidence comes forward to hand over precisely the kind of incidence that was alluded to by Mr Potgieter. Thank you very much. Yes certainly. Thank you Mr McNally.
 Jacques Hechter please.
Could we just please remind people that interpretation services are available. Headphones and ear sets are available from the back if people don't understand Afrikaans. Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm sorry you've had such a long wait. Before you begin I'm going to ask Mr Malan just to swear you in please.

UNKNOWN: Gaan u getuienis in Afrikaans of Engels gee meneer?
KAPT. HECHTER: Dit sal in Afrikaans wees.

UNKNOWN: Sal u asseblief u volle name vir ons gee?
KAPT. HECHTER: My naam is Jacques Hechter.

UNKNOWN: (lees eed) Baie dankie.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) do you represent?

MR DU PLESSIS: du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: du Plessis, sorry.

MR DU PLESSIS: Madam Chair and members of the committee I'm Roelof du Plessis. I'm from the Pretoria bar. I act on behalf of Captain Hechter, on instructions from my attorney, Mr Britz of the Pretoria firm, Strydom Britz Attorneys. I want to mention a few things before Captain Hechter goes on with his submission. The incident Captain Hechter was asked to testify about relates to a, strangely enough a preliminary investigation. It was not an inquest. It is the incident that was referred to very recently now in respect of a question that was asked to Mr D'Oliveira, and Captain Hechter will testify about that incident.
 This evidence was already placed before the Amnesty committee and the submission that was drawn, it was handed in writing, it was drawn by my attorney. It was handed in writing to the Commission and it simply deals with the evidence that was already given before the Amnesty committee. That evidence was part of the evidence in captain Hechter's Amnesty application in the Ribeiro incident. We deemed it necessary to include that evidence as part of full disclosure of his application at that time. And Captain Hechter is fully prepared to answer any questions relating to this incident as far as he can remember. He did make a full disclosure of whatever he could remember at the Amnesty hearing and I also want to place on record that he is here as part of a attitude of full cooperation with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Captain Hechter will testify in Afrikaans. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Plessis. We not going to ask your client to go through his submission but Mr Vally has some questions to place on record.

MR DU PLESSIS: Alright we have no problem with that. His evidence is before the Amnesty committee in any event.

MR VALLY: Captain Hechter you were a captain in the security branch based where?
KAPT. HECHTER: Ek was verbonde aan die veiligheidstak van Noord-Transvaal gestationeer in Pretoria.

MR VALLY: In terms of the submission I have before me it says that you were called to give evidence at the (...indistinct) inquest, your counsel (...indistinct) examination.