Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: Will you hold on a second please.  Will all those who are not using the microphones just turn the volume completely down because we tend to get the echoes.  Thank you.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Sir, you went to Cliffie Barnard's farm and that was with the wives and the children?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: This farm was not suitable for the children and wives and the children and wives then went to Jan De Wet's farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you at any time stay over at Barnard's farm, Koesterfontein?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Before we took the women away, yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you see any explosives there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, none Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The men were then divided from the women and were sent to the game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Do you understand the difference, I assume, between political rhetoric and orders and instructions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: How do you mean, what do you mean?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Do you understand the difference between political rhetoric and orders?

MS BOSMAN: Mr Kriel, maybe you should just describe the word rhetoric.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Let me put it this way.  The leader addressed different meetings?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And at these meetings he told you about the future and the past etc?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But at those meetings he did not give you direct orders?  The orders came from within your own structure, in other words the person just above you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson his speeches at the meetings, one would say that he spoke in such a way at the meetings that it was, it sounded like things that had to be done and will be done in the future and I think most of the people understood it in that way.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But how did you understand it Sir?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I understood it the way he talked about it, I understood that the things are in a terrible condition in this country.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So everything that he said, you accepted as an order?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir you received an order to go to the game farm.  What would you have done at that game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We had to protect the farmers, provide security.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Because of that you then went on patrol?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, amongst other things.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: On this Saturday, why did you go on patrol, to prevent what?  Why did you go on patrol?  To prevent what?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: To see if everything is in order in the area where the farmers were.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What does that entail?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That entails that they are safe.  That the farmers would not be hindered and if we do see something, for example, things or vehicles which doesn't belong there, then we can report back.  And I assume it is to ensure that the area is safe.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Of what?  From whom?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: For attacks on the farmers.  I assumed it was attacks against the farmers because the specific person whose game farm this was has already been attacked earlier.  He told us himself.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Saturday 23rd April 1994, Cliffie Barnard arrived at the game farm.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.  It was the 24th of April, it was a Saturday.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: At that stage Koekemoer was already with you on the farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Let me just get the story in order.  When we drove from Ventersdorp to the game farm Koekemoer did arrive with us.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That was between the 10th and 14th April of that year, the 10th and the 15th April?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was from Ventersdorp to the game farm, that is where I saw him.  I did not see him before that, if that is your question?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: On what date did you go to this game farm or what was the date?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I'm not sure what the dates were Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That was put to you, that it had to be between the 10th and 15th April of that year, do you agree or is it another date?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Now I understand, yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So Koekemoer was with you at the game farm from the time of approximately the 15th until the 23rd April 1994?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No he was only there that evening when we got there at the game farm and then he left with Barnard.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was it the same evening when he arrived there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.   That is when Barnard said that I must go to Koekemoer.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did Koekemoer arrive there on the latest the 15th?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot remember the dates Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Let me try and ask it this way.  We know that in terms of your evidence, Page 133, Paragraph 22, we know that on Saturday 23rd April Cliffie Barnard arrived there.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That evening?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I do not know when that was, that's when he was looking for the explosive expert?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that was the evening when we arrived at the game farm.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Good, that was the 23rd, Saturday?

MR MALAN: I'm sorry Mr Kriel, I'm lost at the moment because you're talking about the 10th to the 15th of April but the witness and the evidence shows that it was the 23rd April regarding Koekemoer.  I think he said that he only saw him on one evening and that was the 23rd April.  Can you just explain to us where the 15th comes in and what the importance of that date is?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  The applicant indicated that approximately the 10th he went to Ventersdorp when they were called up.  The main call up instructions were for the 15th or the 14th and 15th they gathered there, they went to Koesterfontein, from Koesterfontein they separated and the men went to the game farm.

MS BOSMAN: You make a mistake.  They were in Vredasdorp then they went to Cliffie Barnard's farm.  Cliffie Barnard's farm is not Koesterfontein.  Koper Myburgh's parents' farm is Koesterfontein and that's where the confusion comes in.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: How long were you at the game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: From I think the Friday evening we arrived there.  I cannot remember, I think it was a Tuesday morning we went to the shooting range.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry the interpreters cannot hear the speaker.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You need to repeat that the interpreters didn't hear the question before the last one.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What I would like to ascertain is, when did Koekemoer arrive at the game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That evening when we arrived at the game farm.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Good, that was the Friday then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Friday the 22nd of April?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you know Koekemoer before hand?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not know him in the same way I knew the people under me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, we're not asking you how you knew him but did you know him before the 22nd?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not know him.  No Mr Chairperson.