Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MR RICHARD: I will rephrase.  There were 200 or 300 people at this meeting at the school, did anyone address the people and tell them what was happening?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, there was.

MR RICHARD: Who did that?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Skosh.

MR RICHARD: Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni should have been at that meeting?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, he did say so.

MR RICHARD: Did he report to the 200 or 300 people that she hadn't kept other arrangements?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question, I don't quite understand.

MR RICHARD: My question is very simple, but I don't want to put a leading question to you.  Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni was asked to reveal the name of the person who had told her that you were spreading rumours that she was a witch, and that she hadn't been willing to answer the question?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes.  He did tell everyone in that meeting that Emma was supposed to have revealed the name of the person who said she was a witch, but she didn't.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe you will be asking a question on something else, can I just ask a question relating to this Mr Richard?  Just tell us everything that was said by Skosh to this crowd of people.

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We held two meetings, I don't know which meeting you are referring to.  Would you please clarify to me which meeting, so that I will be able to answer your question?

ADV SANDI: The meeting at the school, the meeting at the school where you say Skosh addressed the crowd, what did he say to these people?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Skosh told the people who had gathered in that meeting that Anna was supposed to be in that meeting, because she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and now we were supposed to go to her house in order to find out why she didn't show up.

MR RICHARD: May I interject at that point.  Who was supposed to be at that meeting, but didn't pitch up?  I might have misunderstood the Interpreter?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Anna and her children.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, carry on.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, who is Anna?  You are saying Anna, who is Anna?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I am actually referring to Emma, I am making a mistake.

MR RICHARD: Yes, carry on.  What else was said at the meeting, to the crowd?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It was said that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to show up at that meeting and she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and she wasn't there.  This is what our Chairman told us.

MR RICHARD: Now, what conclusion did the crowd come to from the information that it received?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It was concluded that we were supposed to fetch her in her house, or from her house.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain to me, whose suggestion was this that Emma should be fetched from her house?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Skosh said so.

ADV SANDI: Did the crowd make any contribution by way of discussing the issue before it was concluded that Emma should be fetched from her house?

MR RICHARD: If I do remember, I think it was just his suggestion, because most people there relied on him, because he was the one who had information.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  From that meeting, did you go to Emma's house in Pieterskraal?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We had reached the stage where the two daughters were forced into the second van, and I assume you are on your way to Vaalbank.  Take it from there, don't repeat what you had said.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  On the way to Vaalbank, according to what I am told, you stopped.  Where did you stop?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: When we left Emma's house, we boarded the two bakkies, we left for Waterval, we arrived at a certain filling station.

MR RICHARD: What did you do at the filling station?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We filled in the bakkie which I was driving and also in Phillip's bakkie.  We also filled in a five litre with petrol.

MR RICHARD: If you filled your bakkie with petrol, why did you need to fill a five litre can with petrol as well?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The reason I filled the five litre container with petrol, it was because I had decided that I was going to burn my grandmother, using that petrol, because at that stage I was angry.

MR RICHARD: Why had you come to that conclusion and why were you angry?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I was angry because it hadn't been a long time since I had lost my parents, and there she was accusing us that we had accused her of being a witch, and after she had run away, it gave me the impression that she had more knowledge on this.

MR RICHARD: Now, from Waterval, the garage where you filled your bakkie and bought the petrol, where did you go next, to Vaalbank or back to the village?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: When we left Waterval, we went to Vaalbank.

MR RICHARD: And there, what happened?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We arrived to the house where my grandmother had fled to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry to intervene, just tell the story.  Just say what happened, whether you went back home and so on, just tell us the whole story, carry on.

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We arrived at the house where my grandmother had fled to, the two bakkies stopped at the gate, the one that I was driving and the one that Phillip was driving.  When we stopped, then we alighted the bakkie, the people who were in the back and the people who were in the front.  We entered the yard where my grandmother was.
	We found the man who was the owner of the house.  We told this man that we were looking for Emma Mtsweni, our grandmother and he said that she wasn't there.  There was one Victor Ntuli who kicked the door open.  My grandmother was in that house or in that room, and my other brothers got inside and took her forcefully.
	They took her to the bakkie, at the back of the bakkie and they also boarded the bakkie.  Others were at the back and others were in the front.  I also boarded the van and we started the cars.  We drove back.  We drove back to Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: What happened at Pieterskraal?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: When we arrived at Pieterskraal, we stopped in the school where we found other people whom we had left there.  They all came back to the school.  I said to them - we had passed the Police station and the house where we fetched the grandmother is also near a Police station, and I said to them "it may happen that the Police will get the information and follow us".  That is when we decided to move from the school into the mountain or the hill.

MR RICHARD: Before you go to the mountain or hill or the bush, how many people were at the school?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I think there were approximately 200 to 300 people who came back there.

MR RICHARD: At the school, was there any discussion between either you, your leaders, members of the crowd and Emma Mtsweni?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, there was a short discussion.

MR RICHARD: What was ...

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: That is where Emma was asked as to why she had fled and she said that she was scared that they were going to burn her, and she was asked as to why would she be burnt and she said what she had done, she didn't do it alone.  That is when we decided to go to the mountain or forest because we wanted to get more information and also we were scared that we had passed through a Police station and also the house where we took Emma, is near a Police station.  Therefore we thought that Police may follow us, we decided to go to the mountain.
	When we arrived in the mountain, we took her out and other people got inside the bakkie.  Some of them were running and chanting and they were chanting songs, toyi-toying and saying (indistinct).

MR RICHARD: What does that mean?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be necklaced.

MR RICHARD: Carry on.