Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR BLACK: All right.  I just, because that wasn't sort of challenged when Mr Sibisi said he was threatened and if you take the car, if you don't take the car, we will take it and under that threat he took you people to, that's what he said.  He used the word "dreigement", but okay, be that as it may.

JUDGE WILSON: Well before you go on.  As you know we have not had an opportunity of reading the record, we are relying so far on what you have put.  You are challenging as I understand, only that Sibisi was threatened to take
them to Lydenburg, not that he was threatened on the previous evening and as I understand the evidence which I - it doesn't seem to have been challenged, I may have misunderstood, they approached Sibisi, asked him to take them to the garage which he did, he then brought them back to the house in question and apparently waited outside while they went in and did what they did and then took them home, is that the position?

MR BLACK: ;	No, I've also had a very short, brief look at the record, but I don't understand that to be the position as far as the initial transportation is concerned.  I think after dropping Mr Ndlovu and his friends at the house, Mr Sibisi went, left.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, I am worried that we are putting things to a witness and we don't know whether in fact what is the true position as far as the record is concerned.  I think you better study the record and make sure that what we are putting, or what you are suggesting, is in fact what stands in the record.  We've got sympathy with you of having this record of over 100 or 200 pages in total, I don't know, and receiving it only during lunch time and that was the only opportunity you had to read it.
  But I think we will really be more productive if we would continue after you have really studied it and it is unfortunate because we won't have the opportunity to have a copy of the record, presumably before we are leaving tonight.

MR BLACK: I agree with the Commissioner.  I don't know if I, unfortunately I am not at my own office and if I could get someone from the Johannesburg office to assist with the photocopying, we will certainly make every attempt to get a
copy to the members of the Committee, this evening.

ADV DE JAGER: If after the adjournment, you could come and
we can try to work out something about the copies and the availability and when they will be available.

JUDGE WILSON: I agree entirely with what Mr de Jager has said and this is why I have been asking you the questions I have, in that you have challenged the applicant's evidence about Sibisi taking them to Lydenburg.  You said Sibisi was threatened, but you didn't challenge the applicant's version that Sibisi took them home in his car and they went to Sibisi's house and because they knew the Security Branch was going to be hot on their heels, they dispersed.
	So I took it that that was not in issue that you accepted that.  So that is why I agree - if you are going to challenge certain portions, then you must challenge all the portions you disagree with, otherwise we will believe that you accept the others or you simply say I am not going to 
bother about matters of this nature, I am going to concentrate on the one, but if you start challenging bits of his evidence on other matters, then I think we have to go into all of it, otherwise we will accept the rest as being correct.
	I think we should take the adjournment now to enable you to consult with the persons present and therefore, thereafter to consider the record.  Very well, we will take the adjournment now, optimistically until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR BLACK: ;	Mr Chairman, with regard to the time, you will appreciate that the victims and affected parties must come from Daveyton and if there is any delay, it may be probably, we will do everything possible to sort out that
transportation.

ADV DE JAGER: ... the only people present this morning at
nine o'clock was in fact the victims.

MR BLACK: Yes, the victims were certainly here on time.

JUDGE WILSON: ;	Until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman my learned friend, Mr Currin and I have had several discussions about the further conduct of this particular hearing which we have mentioned to you in chambers, but I would prefer, I call upon Mr Currin to inform the Committee as to what he is - I understand he is seeking a formal postponement of the matter.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  Mr Chairman our position is that we would like the further presentation of the applicant's case to be postponed.  There are witnesses that we need to consult with and which we would need to lead in support of the applicant's application and for that reason I would like to record the agreement that he will stand down, that my learned friend has agreed not to proceed with cross-examination at this stage and that we would technically close our case to enable the victims to lead their evidence.
	We will not cross-examine them and at a later stage we will reserve our rights to cross-examine and at a later stage after we have led further evidence, we may well cross-examine.	That is my understanding of the arrangement.

JUDGE WILSON: ;	Well, could I suggest a few refinements to your agreement.  Firstly, as you are well aware Mr Currin, it is normal practice not to speak to your client while he is subject to cross-examination, but in the circumstances
here it seems to me that Mr Black might well wave that to allow you to take further instructions from your client with the view to the further evidence you are going to lead.  Do you agree Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes, I have no objection to that Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: The second point is perhaps of a highly
technical nature, is while you said there will be no cross-examination, I think it might be desirable if there is any matter that should be clarified, that you ask questions for that purpose, so we are fully aware there may be a possibility of misunderstanding between what your client has said and what they are saying and if you want to merely question for that purpose, I don't think that would be regarded as cross-examination and I don't think Mr Black would object to that either, would you?

MR BLACK: No, Mr Chairman and I understand further that Mr Ndlovu should the matter proceed, will be recalled.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR BLACK: To enable me to continue with cross-examination.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.  And it may also be possible for Mr Currin when he has considered his position to notify you that he does not require the presence of one or more or all of the victims who have given evidence, that we won't, we will take steps to ensure that they are not brought here for no purpose.  So, you can keep in touch with one another and make such arrangements.

ADV DE JAGER: If any further documentation would be used, could that kindly be furnished beforehand so that we could have it beforehand and study it so that there won't be a delay on that again.

JUDGE WILSON: We should perhaps record that we have this morning received copies of the record which Mr Currin made available yesterday.

MR CURRIN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: The applicant may now step down.  He has been told what is set.  Are you in a position to proceed Mr Black, have you had an opportunity to talk to ...
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

MR BLACK: Yes, Mr Chairman I have explained the position to the victims as it were and they are anxious that they proceed and that be no further delays.  They are all working and ...  I will therefore, with the Committee's permission, call two witnesses in respect of what occurred at the house on this fatal day of the 2nd of July 1987 and in that regard the first witness to testify is Mr Godfrey Masupa.  His evidence in court at the initial trial of this matter appears in volume 1, on page 31 of that particular record.
	Mr Masupa will testify in Sotho.