Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not get him very well.  I want to know whether he's asking whether the legal counsel was appointed or paid for by my family.

MR LAX: I'm trying to explain to you what he's asking you, so if you'd just listen carefully.  What counsel is asking you is, who represented you in your trial which led to your conviction for which you are now in jail?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall, I do not recall his or her name.

MR LAX: And the other question he was asking you was, did you pay for that counsel yourself or that lawyer yourself or was that lawyer provided for you by the state?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not pay for my legal representation.

MR LOWIES: Just to turn to page 6, paragraph (f) of Exhibit R, there's reference to
"Date of sentence if applicable"
And it was completed, stating that it was the 1/3/1996,  would you agree with the correctness of this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was not sentenced on that day, I was sentenced on the 14th of February 1995.

MR LOWIES: Definitely not on the 1st of March 1996?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was sentenced in 1995.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, then I would like you to explain to us how was this possible ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.
	Mr Nosenga, before signing the document that, before placing your signature at page 6, did you take an oath? - if you can recall.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this document read back to you before you signed it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Mongezi just took the statement and left.

CHAIRPERSON: When you signed, who was present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall who was present.

CHAIRPERSON: It was yourself, Mongezi, was there any other person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was - there were other police if I still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know whether you took an oath before putting your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I'm saying I cannot recall.

MR LOWIES: Now you gave him your prison number, being 95244676 at that stage, does that ring a bell, was that indeed your prison number?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: You told this person that you were actually imprisoned for 14(sic) years, that is correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Are you saying 14 years?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes 14, not 40.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, my mistake, 14.  Now if you then turn to page 7, from this document it appears that you were requested by one, Nobewe, an Assistant Director in the Department of Correctional Services, Leeukop, to state whether you acknowledge that you know and understand the contents of the declaration, whereafter you confirm this to him and he signed it as well.  Is this a lie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.  One person who came to me was Mongezi.  Mongezi is the one who came to me to take a statement.

MR LOWIES: No, but that's not the question.  You said that there was a police officer present, was there anybody from the prison present who requested you to acknowledge that you understand and that you know the contents of the declaration?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it's possible, but the one person who came to me was Mongezi and I spoke to him through an interpreter.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something, Mr Lowies?
	You keep referring to a police officer being present during all of this and someone interpreting, it was a police officer.  How come there was a police officer in the prison?  Was this - I'm just interested.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying there were these prison warders, one of whom was interpreting for me and they were based in Leeukop.

MR LAX: So just to confirm, these are not police officers, you're just using that word, but in fact you're referring to prison warders.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it is the prison security or prison warders who were interpreting for me, not the SAP.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman.
	Mr Nosenga, then I'd like you to turn to the document which you've been referred to and which has been referred to as the unsigned affidavit, or the unsigned statement, on page 8.  I'm going to request with the permission of the Chairman, your legal assistant just to point that document out to you, all the pages, so as to bring you in the picture.  Are you now in the picture?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see that.

MR LOWIES: Now according to this statement you received a 16 year prison sentence.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that's a mistake, I was not sentenced to 16 years.

MR LOWIES: According to this statement you are now, when this statement was made, you are in the Leeuhof Prison, whereas the previous statement reads that you were in the Leeukop Prison, from the date-stamp we can see there.  On page 7, Chair.  Were you ever at  Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May the question please be repeated.

MR LOWIES: If one looks at page 8 of the unsigned affidavit, it states that you are at the Maximum B in Leeuhof, whereas it is clear to us that Mongezi visited you at Leeukop, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: But there's another mistake here, because if we look at page 7 of Exhibit R, you were in Medium C, do you agree that you were in Medium C first of all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about Medium C.  Maybe that is where the statement was taken.  I was locked up at a maximum section.

MR LOWIES: What section?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Mongezi visited me and I was sent to Medium C, where I met him.  I was locked up at a maximum section and I was sent to Medium C, or Maximum C, where I met Mongezi.

MR LOWIES: Were you held at Maximum B Prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There is no Maximum B, there is just, it's just a maximum section prison in Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a Maximum B in Leeuhof Prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is a regional prison, that is Leeuhof.  I was transferred from Leeuhof to Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the question.  In Leeuhof Prison, is there a Maximum B?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It's just one small prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Where did you start to serve your sentence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I started serving the sentence in Leeukop Maximum Prison.

MR LOWIES: Were you ever in Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When I was arrested I was placed in Leeuhof and after sentencing I was sent to Leeukop.

MR LOWIES: So you never served any sentence in Leeuhof, you only were detained there pending the outcome of your trial?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's were I was detained during the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) your conviction ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: After everything had been done, I was sent to Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: And for how long did you remain in Leeuhof Prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, it was quite a while.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you remain in your prison after your conviction?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, but it could not have been more than three days.  Thereafter I was transferred to Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: So whilst you were an awaiting-trial prisoner, you were at Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's where I was.

CHAIRPERSON: And then after your conviction you remained there for a few days.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter you were transferred to Leeukop.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Leeukop Maximum.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And nobody visited you for the purposes of amnesty at Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall anyone visiting me.  No-one came to visit me.

MR LOWIES: Now you say nobody came, so that's a fact?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, no-one came.  People started visiting me at Leeukop.