Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

CHAIRPERSON: Where you the chairperson of the ANC, where, in Katlehong ...[indistinct]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was the chairperson of the area six, that is Moleleki, Zongezizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those the only two areas, Moleleki and Zongezizwe?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Are six comprises of two areas, Moleleki and Zongezizwe?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, that is Moleleki, Zongezizwe, Sunrise, Magagula and Galela Section.

MR MADASA: So you say, as a result of your election to that position you - peace came to the area?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, there was peace.  I tried, though I tried under difficult circumstances and even some of our members were sceptic so that I wanted them to be reconciled with them.  I said to them we should talk about peace.
	I tried to reconcile - I had three to four meetings trying to create peace between the two parties, that is why residents from Moleleki, they have all returned.

MR MADASA: Now, do you know what was the source of the firearms which the ANC Youth League used?  Where did they get them from?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The issue of guns, they were getting them - they disarmed the police.

MR MADASA: And how else did they obtain firearms?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I only know that they got guns from disarming the police.

MR MADASA: What I want to establish here is that,  they were not issued, the Youth League were not issued the firearms from the command structure of the SDU/s?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, they were never given arms from our commanders.

MR MADASA: Even at the time you were still working together, were they not issued firearms by the SDU structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The time when we were operating together Vips was an operator, the time when all of us were in the SDU.  When they left the guns - the guns which belonged to the SDU's were taken from them but they had their own guns, we didn't know where they took them from.

MR MADASA: In terms of this Act which is in operation here, when you make an application you are supposed to show that one of the requirement is that you had a political objective when you committed an act.  You've told us what your role was and the rest of the members, tell me what political objective did you want to achieve by killing those people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Our political objective was to protect the community against an enemy.  We were looking an enemy from outside whereas we had an enemy within, that is why there was this kind of a conflict.

MR MADASA: So the Youth League, you perceived them as an enemy within you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The way the acted, that is so.

MR MADASA: Did you have any evidence or suspicion that these people, the Youth League, were perhaps used by some other force?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We had that suspicion that it may be possible that they had a force behind, firstly Buthelezi himself was always together with the members of the stability harassing members of the SDU's and then at times would meet members of the IFP.  We had a doubt about where he stands and that he's related to - the ANC Youth League is related to Buthelezi.  Maybe third force was present within them.

MR MADASA: Now, if third force were police, covert police structure, now if the third force wanted to divide you as SDU's or as a community and seeing that the Youth League was involved in these criminal activities and that caused division amongst you, would you say therefore they were a suitable target for the third force to use in order to divide the community in Katlehong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, quite frankly I don't understand the question, what is the question?

MR MADASA: Was it easy for the police or the third force to use the Youth League against you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The way you put it, it seems it was like that, that even if we had a fight against one another but the ANC - the police would always be there, so they used tactics so that for us to divide these people is to make them fight each other.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any problem with tomorrow Mr Mapoma, if we start at 9 o'clock tomorrow?

MR MADASA: I've already arranged for transport to be picked at 9 o'clock at home but I can try and contact those people earlier.  What I'm saying is, if something wrong happens there it will be for that reason but otherwise I'm ready to start at nine.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Due to the lateness of the hour we have to adjourn now.  We will reconvene tomorrow at 9 o'clock.  	Mr Motlokwa, may I remind you that you are still under oath and will you come back here, make sure that by 9 o'clock you are here so that we can continue with your evidence.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS