Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: Your full names please?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: My name is Stephen Lebogang van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand to take the oath.

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: (sworn states)

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the application is on page 35 to 43.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chair.
	You have heard the evidence of three of your - excuse me, I'm having a bad sound feedback, I'm not sure what is wrong.
	You've listened to the evidence of three of your co-applicants inasfar as the background leading to the events that culminated in the death of the two deceased persons, do you confirm that?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: Yes, I do.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's got to Bekkersdal.  When you got to Bekkersdal you separated yourselves into two groups, there was a group in which the first applicant was in, I would like you to tell this Committee in which group you were.

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: I was in the first group.

MR KOOPEDI: In the first group, that is the group that was with the first applicant, is that correct?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: That's correct Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's get to the mine premises.  When you got to the mine premises, where were the two deceased persons, where were they standing in relation to you as you come into the premises?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: As we were chasing them, myself and comrade Lacosta and comrade Masoba in front.  We told them to stop because: "We are not here to fight but we've just come to take you back to the community of Kutsaong, so that you should account for what you have done".
	As I was in front, they pretended to stop, the deceased and KK took out a firearm and he attempted to shoot me.  I heard one of the comrades shouting to be careful because he had a gun and when I looked at him he had pointed at me with the gun and I swerved, but the firearm jammed.  When that happened I took a stone and hit him with that on his head and he fell and the firearm fell as well.
	When the firearm fell we started stoning him.  Comrade Lacosta wanted to go for the firearm but the deceased took out a jungle knife and when he did that we started stoning him.  Comrade Didi had already arrived and had started stabbing him.
	I picked up an iron rod in the nearby, in that same camp, and started hitting him with it and the other comrades started stabbing him.  In the nearby it was comrade Chaba who was busy arguing with one of the deceased, being Bafino Sedisa.
	As we were busy, I'm not sure as to what happened eventually.  Comrade Gustaff Morupisi came with comrade Didi.  When they arrived, Gustaff Morupisi assisted comrade Chaba to find Bafino.  There I don't know who did what in killing comrade Bafino but I know that comrade Tebogo came to assist comrade Chaba.  I didn't see exactly what happened as I was also very busy fighting the late KK.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, can you tell this Honourable Committee what could have been your political motive, if you had any, to attack these people, the two deceased?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: As the comrades have already indicated about the criminal offences that were being committed mainly by these gangsters in the township, the comrades finally decided that the things that were happening in the township due to this group that was against the community, was no longer acceptable and the ANC was not - what they did was not acceptable by the community and the ANC, thus the comrades decided to go out and search for the deceased.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, to your recollection, have you told this Honourable Committee everything that you know in relation to this incident?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: As I've already said, that is the absolute truth that I've presented in front of this Commission.

MR KOOPEDI: Is there anything that you would want to add?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: There's nothing further to add Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chair, that will be the case for this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: After you hit KK with the iron rod, did you do anything further, did you do anything else to him?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: After having hit him with the rod, because he was still fighting back and the situation that was prevailing at that time, I continued hitting him with the iron rod constantly as we were fighting with him.

CHAIRPERSON: You were fighting with him and he wasn't fighting with you because there were three of you or four of you, he was alone, you had taken away his knife so he wasn't fighting?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: As I've already explained, the deceased, I tried to talk to him but to show that he was keen to fight he took out his firearm and thus I say that he was fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you said he was fighting because he pulled out his firearm and you hit him on the head because his firearm wouldn't go off.  There was no fight left in the man after that, was there fight left in him?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: He had the courage to fight ...[indistinct] because he drew a knife thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.  You took his knife away from him and then ...[intervention]

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: His knife fell and comrade Mokoena picked it up.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you decide to stop hitting this man?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: When he could not fight back I stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Explain to me how he fought.  After his knife was taken away from him, what did he do to show that he was fighting?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: As I've already explained, after having hit him with the stone he drew a jungle knife and that is when I hit him with the iron rod.  When I hit him, the comrades were already stabbing him and that is when he was fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he fighting when he was being stabbed by the comrades, what was he doing?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: He tried to stab back with the jungle knife.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that.  I'm talking about the time when they took his knife away from him.

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: He had already fallen down and we had stabbed him already, that is when we left him, after having stabbed him.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: What happened to his gun?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: Comrade Mokoena picked it up and on our way back ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Yes?  Did he take it home?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: Yes, we did.

ADV DE JAGER: And his knife, the jungle knife?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: I don't know what happened to it because I know comrade Lacosta was using it to stab him.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, comrade Lacosta, is that Mr Mokoena?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: Yes, Sir, Mr Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Please correct that, this is the first time I hear this name.  Lacosta, is it the same person as the first applicant?

MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So just to avoid confusion, instead of using the word: "Lacosta", will we say that in this case the knife was taken away by Mokoena?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] says KK's gun was picked up by Mokoena, he took it home.  "And what happened to the knife"?  He says: "I don't know, but I saw Lacosta stabbing him with a knife", to create an impression it was two different people.

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: We are talking about the same person Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So why do you use two different names?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: As he is my friend I am used to calling him Lacosta.

MS GCABASHE: Because you've also used Didi which is a name we are not familiar with, you'd better tell us who that is.  Earlier on you used Lacosta, you used ...[intervention]

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: That is Mr Maumakwe, Didi.  Maumakwe is Didi.

MS GCABASHE: Chaba?

STEPHEN LEBOGANG VAN ROOYEN: That is Hendrik van Rooyen, Chaba.