Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-26

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you got to your grandmother's house did you see Mr Pro Jack's vehicle there?

ANDILE JACK: I was playing at the next door house and I saw his car and then I got into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his car parked in the street or on the premises or where was it parked?

ANDILE JACK: It was inside the premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Was his car well known in that area?

ANDILE JACK: Yes it was well known, it was known that that was his car.

CHAIRPERSON: And the route that you were taking from your grandmother's house, was that the only way to get from your grandmother's house to where Mr Pro Jack was living or was there another route that one could take to get to Mr Pro Jack's home from your grandmother's home?

ANDILE JACK: That was not the only road.

CHAIRPERSON: While you were at your grandmother's house did you notice any strange people on the property or in the vicinity?

ANDILE JACK: No, there were no strange people.

CHAIRPERSON: People with coats and balaclava like hats?

ANDILE JACK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you were driving home, Mr Pro Jack was he at ease or was he concerned or was he normal?

ANDILE JACK: He was at ease and we were also chatting in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: And also when his name was called was he also at ease, he wasn't nervous or anything?

ANDILE JACK: Yes he was just free, he was at ease because he wanted to know who were those people who were calling him, who those people were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is there any re-examination?  Yes Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: How far is your grandmother's house from the spot where he was shot?

ANDILE JACK: It is not a long distance, you just take a corner, it's not far.

ADV SIGODI: When you ran from the spot where you were shot, how long did it take you to get to your grandmother's house?

ANDILE JACK: Just a few minutes, 10 to 20 minutes.

ADV SIGODI: 10 to 20 minutes when running or when walking?

ANDILE JACK: I was running.

ADV SIGODI: Your uncle, did he have anything to do with taxis?  Did he own a taxi?

ANDILE JACK: No he did not own a taxi, he had nothing to do with the taxis.

ADV SIGODI: Did he take part in resolving taxi disputes in the community or do you have any knowledge of that?

ANDILE JACK: No, I know nothing about that.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just clarify a further question?  The three people that you saw you said that they were some distance away from the road, is that right?

ANDILE JACK: They were not on the road, they were under the trees.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you heard the voice or voices you're not sure, calling the deceased's name and you saw the three persons.  Now when you saw them for the first time were they standing?

ANDILE JACK: Yes they were standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they ever at any stage move towards the road or closer to the car or were they standing where you saw them the first time throughout?

ANDILE JACK: No they didn't try to come closer to the car they were standing still.

CHAIRPERSON: And the vehicle moved right up to where they were, would that be right?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were standing the whole time?

ANDILE JACK: Yes they were standing, they didn't even move.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you got to them then they just started shooting?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't say anything?

ANDILE JACK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Jamie, have you got any re-examination?

MR JAMIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Andile, where your grandmother lives is two blocks from the corner where the stop street is where you heard the people calling, is that not correct?

ANDILE JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: Where your grandmother lives, the house where you were that evening with Pro, your grandmother's house, it is two blocks, it's in a road that is two blocks down from the stop street in 1st Avenue, is that correct?  There are two streets from the stop street and the second street is the one your grandmother lives in?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct, it's only two streets from the house.

MR JAMIE: Your granny lives in the second street from the stop street, correct?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: The fourth house down that road, the second street?

ANDILE JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: Your grandmother lives in about the fourth house, fourth or fifth house down the second street, is that correct?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And there are about two houses in each block so from the stop street there are about two houses then there's a street then there's about another two houses and a street, correct?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: So you had to run past two houses, a street, two houses, turn the corner and run past four houses to your granny's house after the incidence?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Okay.  You've already testified that the window of the car was up when you first heard the voices.  In your statement you said that Pro wound the window down as he reversed and then you've also indicated today that he was still busy with the window when he pulled up to the men, is that correct?

ANDILE JACK: Yes as he was coming closer to them he was rolling down the window.

MR JAMIE: Completely?

ANDILE JACK: No, it was not opened completely.

MR JAMIE: Didn't he open it completely at some point?

ANDILE JACK: No it was never opened completely.  While he was still rolling down the window, the shot rang out.

MR JAMIE: Okay.  Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions but I do have a request if that is appropriate at this point?  Inasmuch as there has been some questions and debate about distances and the witness is obviously trying his best, if this is going to be of importance I'd request that the tribunal conduct an inspection of the scene because the distances, I've been there, are not quite great and the photographs we've seen, I don't know whether the photographs that the members of the tribunal have are better than what I've got but I've got copies of photographs but are entirely impossible to see any depth or to actually see what the position is at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: I would make that request, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm not sure whether there is any real dispute about any of the distances and it might very well be that the parties are able to agree on some or other sort of layout but we'll bear that in mind, that suggestion.
	So for the moment that's the testimony then that you had intended to lead.  We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning.  You said that you wanted to give the matter perhaps some further thought so you can consider whether your clients wish to call any further testimony and we can deal with that in the morning and we will also consider the question of having a look at the particular area.
	But for the moment, Mr Jack, you are excused, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We've come to the end of the proceedings.  Proceedings will now be adjourned until tomorrow morning and we will reconvene here at 9 o'clock.  So we're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS