Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-29

KOKANE ISAAC DITSHEGO: Nothing in particular for myself because what I was fighting for I got.  Freedom.  But I have got a problem as to whether those people who were perpetrating these things have repented.  That is my problem because I may sit here and say well I have got freedom.  Who knows.  Miracles happen.  The National Party wins the government tomorrow and these people do exactly the same, not to me now, to other people then I did nothing.  So I want those people to come forward here, not only to say sorry but to say to us we will do that any more to anyone. Not even it is
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not in this country.   What stopped them, from at least one of them. Because they know our addresses, they were arresting us.  What is stopping one of them to come to my house to show that they have repented.  That is exactly what shows me that those people they still think the same way.  I don't know where they stay because I didn't arrest them.  They know where I stay because they know where they picked me up.  If they repented and they are in the fold, living in nowadays democratic life I would one day just see one of them popping up, even at work.  They know where I am working.  And say to me man how do you see things today.  Then I say to him look come to my house, let's have pap and (indistinct).  Symbol.  Then I know he has repented but till then, no I doubt it.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  Hugh Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Just one question please Mr Ditshego.  Can you identify any of these people?  You were in the hands of a large number of people.  Can you identify any of them?

KOKANE ISAAC DITSHEGO: Yes.  Brigadier Badenhorst at Sandton security police was my handler.  He was the one who electrocuted me, tortured me and all that.  But in as far as that group in Kwandabele is concerned, Brigadier Lerm was their controller so the rest of them as I say they were not normal police, that we knew, I wouldn't really identify them.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Ditshego, I think, I am not sure if you are aware of the fact that in November we will be doing a special hearing in the Mutsi Kwandabele area to focus on the problems that people had and the interference I think of the government in the problems of both Mutsi and Kwandabele and one of the people that we are going to issue a subpoena to is Brigadier Lerm.
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KOKANE ISAAC DITSHEGO: I am not aware but if you subpoena Brigadier Lerm well done.  I gave my statement here in Alexandra because both arrests were taking place here, one.  Two, because I am still staying here and the Truth Commission offices are nearer me, I am staying here.  But I would still be pleased and that is why I made the statement about myself and not about the situation there, but I would still be pleased if I am allowed to appear particularly to give statement on the situation in Mutsi and Kwandabele in those days and what was happening, what did we do at Civics, what have we failed to do and what did the police do to the people.  That, if I am given that opportunity I would gladly accept it.

YASMINE SOOKA: Well our statement takers are in the process of taking statements for the Mutsi area and what could possibly happen is once you have completed your evidence we could find out from the office who the statement taker is who is doing that for Mutsi.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much Isaac.  You have shared with us your difficult experiences of being beaten up and tortured at different times.  As you have said that at least you are pleased that you achieved what you wanted.  We are also pleased that you survived it, you are alive.  You have raised a difficult question for the Commission as to what should be done to make sure that these things are not part of our history again.  The Commission partly is expected to be able to advise the government at the end regarding institutional rehabilitation so that is the challenge that is facing all of us and we will continue calling people who have gone through similar experiences like yours to make whatever recommendations which they think will be of help in
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making sure that this country is run in a different manner compared to what was done in the past.  We thank you very much.