Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Basically one of the three, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be a questions of recalling White Mohapi and saying to him: "Did you make this statement"?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Apart from that there are two other - there are in total four documents which we believe, with respect, we should pay attention to.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we - speaking for myself and I think for my brethren, feel that this is a very minor issue, it involves White Mohapi on this.  It certainly may effect Mr Ngo and if it is felt that it is in the interests of Mr Ngo that we should hear it, then we may do so but if it's merely the dispute about what White Mohapi and the police say, it seems to us that that is not a matter that we should reopen, to call another four or five witnesses about.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, it is our submission that it effects Mr Ngo and that is really the basis why we wish to place this before you.

CHAIRPERSON: It will just to be to put it to - to recall White Mohapi and put to him the statement?

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, I'm not even implying that but I concede immediately that it would be most unfair ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you can just put it in without giving him a chance.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, obviously.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I've got an objection to the recalling of any witness on this matter.  You will recall M'Lord, that this matter started long ago, these allegations were made by Ngo last year.  This docket was available and at some stage - let's accept that it was available, if it was available all along then they are not entitled to produce it now.  If you want to recall a witness you must establish that evidence was not available at a time when evidence - when you were testifying ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You object to it being ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I'm also going to object to this procedure followed by the Commission.  If it entails only that Mr White Mohapi will come to the dock to come and say: "I have made two statements", it will bring this Commission no further.
	You will remember that during his evidence he told us that a document was presented to him at a certain stage, written in Afrikaans and he couldn't understand that document.  I can give you the assurance, two of the three statements are written in Afrikaans and he does not know what it is all about.  He did make a statement in English.  
	What I'm tying to say is the following:  the only aspect which can have an impact on Mr Ngo's application is the question about which date or when these events occurred and that I've already conceded to yesterday.  It happened in 1984 and not like Mr Mohapi said, in 1986.  
	This is the only aspect which can have an impact on the credibility or not of Mr Ngo's application.  I mean that we're going to lose time when we have to discuss this matter any further.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you tell us, was it before or after the assault on Mr Ngo?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, all I can tell you is, I don't think Mr Ngo provided a date, I'm talking under correction, I stand to be corrected.   I can't take it any further now but I think it was in April, the 27th of April, he was released from the police station.  I'm sorry, I'm very sorry, it was in 1984.

CHAIRPERSON: We can let the matter stand down now and let this witness stand down and be released subject - he's the one witness I think you can always find, isn't he?  He doesn't actually have to sit here.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: I just want to say very briefly Mr Chairman, we stand in respectful disagreement with my learned friend, that that's the only issue obviously.  The issue here is the implication of my clients, that's the issue.  Mr Chairman, Brigadier Coetzee is ready and available to give evidence, he's our last witness.  I may mention to you right now that there are three other witnesses for whom we appear, those are the three we mentioned earlier today, Kopi - sorry, Tax, Sefatsa and - Tax, Jantjie, I'm sorry.  May I start all over again Mr Chairman, I'm getting a bit confused here.  Jantjie, Thulu and Sefatsa.  Now we're not going to call Jantjie and Sefatsa Mr Chairman, because they're not really implicated.  Thulu has been here and he's been excused.  You will recall what transpired there so this will be our last witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Mr Brink may have a witness, the person who arrived here and is unrepresented but we can deal with that later.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before you proceed with the next witness, I've been instructed that NIA is not situation at Fountain, that NIA is situated in Fountain Street on the 7th floor of some building and that the offices are currently used by the police's criminal investigation services.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear you, you said who is not?  National Intelligence?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I was told the same thing when I went down for the building, it's now Central Intelligence Agency.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, Mr Chairman, I've been instructed that it's now the police's CI's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: CIA, Criminal Intelligence Agency, sorry.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, I must apologise.  Where I mention - it's my fault, I mentioned National Intelligence and I was misinformed Mr Chairman, we've got the correct facts now.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[No English translation]

MR COETZEE: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, are you a retired Brigadier from the South African Police Services?

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you know that certain allegations have been made against you in these applications, of offences and unlawful deeds that you have committed?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What is your reactions to these allegations?

MR COETZEE: I reject it completely.

MR VISSER: Have you initially, when you in March last year became aware of these allegations, did you visit Mr Wagner in his offices in Pretoria?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you make an affidavit contained in bundle B, page 15 to 17?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you have that affidavit in front of you.

MR COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the truth and the correctness of the contents?

MR COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you later - did it later come under your attention that Mr Motsamai implicated you in certain offences or unlawful deeds?

MR COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And then, did you make another affidavit?

MR COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And is that the affidavit contained in bundle B, pages 90 to 91?

MR COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm that the contents are correct?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is it correct that on the 30th of January 1962 you joined the South African Police?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And is it also correct that on the 31st of August 1980 you joined the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I understand that you worked in various departments?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The first was the investigative unit when you arrived here?

MR COETZEE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] was?

MR VISSER: The investigation section Mr Chairman.
	And at that stage you were mainly working with terror and sabotage investigations?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: This lasted till 1985, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: When you were transferred to the black section?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: There you were the commanding officer?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.