Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

PROF DE KOKER: Why, then, was the attack launched in the middle of the day with all the members participating in the march present if all you wanted to target was the building?

LAURENS MBATHA: Definitely it will, actually, lose its political content.

PROF DE KOKER: A hand grenade, I put to you, Major Mbatha, thrown at the dead of night at the consulate of Bophuthatswana, at that stage, would not have been an event without political content.

LAURENS MBATHA: The situation by then, this is how I perceived it and this is how I happened to have executed it.  I wanted that it should be (...indistinct).  Unfortunately, whether it was during the night or in the morning, that is the time that I have, actually, felt suited that it should be thrown.

PROF DE KOKER: You chose particularly a public occasion where the whole membership leadership structure of the ANC was present, an event organised by the ANC Youth League, Cosas and the SACP, an event, specifically, therefore, organised, you chose that event to throw the grenade.

LAURENS MBATHA: For that day, the aim, I think, I have stated it.

PROF DE KOKER: At that time, the ANC was the signatory to the National Peace Accord.  It undertook, as a party, a movement, that it will further its political objectives in a peaceful manner.  This particular march was organised in terms of the National Peace Accord.  Days beforehand hours were spent in meetings between representatives of all the organisations, the leadership structure of all the organisations participating and members of the Peace Committee and Peace Secretariat and international observation.  The ANC gave, as an organisation, commitments and assurances that this march will continue peacefully.  I return to my question.  Why did you choose this march to, in public, commit a breach of agreement on behalf of the leadership structure and of the organisation that you represented?

LAURENS MBATHA: In my initial statement I did indicate the intention and the aim and the consequences, they were very unfortunate, not denying the fact that the organisation was part of the signatories of the Peace Accord.  I did indicate that I took the initiative with the intention, with the aim, but it became very regrettable, at the end of the day, that innocent life had to be lost.  It was very touching at the end of the day.

PROF DE KOKER: I agree, but apart from any injuries sustained, the mere fact that a hand grenade was thrown at an occasion which the ANC and all the other member organisations undertook and assured everyone involved would be a peaceful march, held in terms of the National Peace Accord with international representatives, national representatives, regional observers and local observers from a number of organisations, Council of Churches, Lawyers for Human Rights, National Peace Secretariat and United Nations present to observe the way in which the ANC held its word, you chose that occasion to go ahead, to throw a grenade and to break the agreement on their behalf.  Why, again, do I put, put it to you, why did you do it?

LAURENS MBATHA: As I said, it is rather very unfortunate, because everybody at that stage knew the stage that we were entering.  I took the initiative, as I have said, circumstances that were prevailing by then, were becoming very clear that there was an abnormal situation that is starting to build up.  Hence, I do not deny the fact that I took the initiative at that particular point in time.

PROF DE KOKER: You, therefore, decided to take it upon yourself to commit a breach of a National Peace Accord, which was reached and agreed by the member, by the leadership of your organisation.  Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: That I do not deny.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Prof de Koker, I must tell the applicant, a pertinent question has been put to you that after the ANC had given an undertaking to many people and organisations that the march would be peaceful, why did you do this, your answer was, I think, more or less because an abnormal situation was building up.  You know, you have not really said anything.  By just saying an abnormal situation was building up, that is really not useful evidence.  You should tell us what it is that, abnormal in which way, you should really get, be practical and fewer (...indistinct) less, come down onto the level, onto the ground and really be concrete and give evidence.
	It does not help us to engage in high, in a high flown language and we really want evidence, you know.  What do you mean by because an abnormal situation was building up?

LAURENS MBATHA: I am sorry, Sir, I was just avoiding the redundancy, because when I started I did explain the situation regarding the uncertainty.  You say, if you recall well, I did make mention of the Pollo Park incident, I did make mention that around the area, the military base of the very same structure that I have mentioned, that is the AWB, their training has been intensifying and my distinction regarding that force and the security forces it was, there was no difference, because they were clearly, actually, stating their support that they had.  Thirdly, Sir, at that very same stage, the disappearance of weapons from military bases was clear evidence that that thing could not be done without the involvement of people within inside.
	That was the time when that whole process was escalating.  That is the situation that I referred to, was building up and had abnormalities and the repression, again, within the Bop situation, Bophuthatswana.  So, a person like myself, with a military background, experiencing all those problems, because it is very clear, when you talk in terms of arms are disappearing, you are not talking of arms to be stored, they will be utilised somewhere.  Whether when, it is what one, actually, should strive to search and try and find, but, unfortunately, as I have said, at the end of the day, the capacity, the understanding, it is at that stage, with your own initiative, when you read the situation that you start preparing yourselves for it.  
	It was not long ago, on the very same area in Kuruman, a house was located, I personally had to go down, it was full of arms.  We never, actually, could conclude exactly, because we had to go through the maid who linked us up to the area and later, three days later that maid was chased away, out of that house.  So, the areas of the weapons disappearing from the military bases, like I have indicated, the actions that took place nationally at that time, yes, it is true, the situation was, we adhered, the organisation adhered to the Peace Secretariat, but activities on the ground clearly showed that the parties that you referred to as opponents that time, were not prisoners to those agreements and it has become very evident to us, this Commission, when people testified, because of those fears that one had, that this was the intention, this was the applied, this was the head political motivation, because they ended up, lately, acting out of those things, conducting blasts.
	This is how, by then, the situation that I regarded was building up and my perception, actually, was linked out of those conditions.  That is all that I am driving to define now.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbatha, did you have an opportunity to discuss these abnormal developments with the leadership of both Cosas and the Youth League?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that stage the discussions that one had in the province, there was a strong element of insecurity from all the sectors of the province.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, you were unable to discuss these abnormal developments with the leadership of both structures?