Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you asked for permission about this video.  If you will bear it in mind, and if you need more time lets now get on with it.
VIDEO
"Three of the policeman appeared before the Commission last year including the man who planned the operation" replied Colonel Adolf Janse Odendaal. The remaining six policemen gave their versions at a two day sitting this week.  It would be the fourth time since 1986 that implicated policemen tell us their story.  Besides the Truth Commission's special hearing there have been two inquests and a trial.  The big question is, are we any closer to the truth.  A word of advice to especially sensitive viewers.  Some of the pictures used are shocking.  The nature of this investigation unfortunately demanded that we use them.
The clearest element about the Guguletu 7 massacre is it's murkiness. What we do know, is that of the twenty two police involved in the operation, some have taken responsibility for some of the deaths.  But whether the police shot and killed the young men, has never been the issue.  The question is whether the massacred men were part of an underground ANC cell and whether there was a calculated strategy to take them out.  
Last November, we spoke to a man who claims that he was the MK cadre who got away.
VOICE IN AFRIKAANS: (inaudible)...om na die vermoedelik een persoon wat weggekom het in die bos te soek.
MALE VOICE (2): The helicopter was looking at me because I was the one who escaped from that scene but they couldn't even find me.
COMMENTATOR: He does not want to be named or known until he has spoken to the Truth Commission.
MALE VOICE 2: Our ..(inaudible) started in 1984.  Our vision, it was to be trained and defend the people on the ground and the commander of our unit it was Alli from Mitchell's Plain, the coloured guy.  He used to come and train us with an AK and hand grenades.  So that's why we decided, I mean to try to hit this big target of the officers of the SAP police.
COMMENTATOR:  The police have testified that they got wind of the police bus attack from two informers who had infiltrated the cell.  
TRC COMMISSIONER:   When were you given a description of the Askaris from Vlakplaas who were with these men?
MALE VOICE:	As far as I can recall we weren't given any description we were just told that there were two informers with the group and they would be moving with the group.
COMMENTATOR:   A fortnight before the cell's planned attack on the police bus, two men joined their group.  They said they were former MK cadres, that they would assist with the mission and supply them with arms.
MALE VOICE (2):  I said okay, no problem, because they have their own weapons also on our side we do have our own weapons but they came and then they told us that they are going to also assist us with ammunition.  So they done that, they give us grenades.
COMMENTATOR:   We need to know whether the police were simply to prevent the attack and what exactly were the instructions to the assembled police at Wingfield in the early hours of that fateful day - to arrest or to wipe out what they already knew was an underground ANC cell.
MR MBANE - MALE VOICE(2):  We were informed that information was received that an attack was to be launched on a police bus which was transporting police staff between Bellville and Guguletu police stations at the intersection between NY1 and N111 at Guguletu between quarter past seven and twenty past seven that morning.  We were told to prevent an attack and attempt to arrest the attackers.
COMMENTATOR:   That's what they all say, they also say that the massacre was an act of self defence after a hand grenade was lobbed at the Ford Cortina Klein and others were travelling in.
MALE VOICE (2):  On the way was the Ford Cortina with three police guys inside.  The passed us, they just passed us, they drove away, turned around, it was a hundred metres and then they turned over there, they came again approaching us so the car was stopped in front of us in the middle of the road.  It was no nothing that we can do.  So I decided to throw the grenade towards the, I mean, those police.
WOMAN'S VOICE (2) (INTERPRETING):  The next minute the hand grenade exploded approximately three metres away from me. In the explosion a whole lot of sand and dust was strewn all over me.  A shooting pursued almost immediately thereafter.  
COMMENTATOR:	The story of pure self defence against a group of super-armed men, just does not hold.  Eyewitnesses have testified about some of the deceased been shot at point blank range. This is borne out by Dr David Klatzow, an independent forensic expert who testified at the trial of Cape Times Journalist Tony Weaver.
DR DAVID KLATZOW:	Very unlikely, very unlikely that the ballistic patterns...."
VIDEO TERMINATED

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, the passage we are interested in of course I don't want to preclude anybody from looking any further, is with that with the other man.  That is all really all that we are interested in.
	Mr Mbane, were you able to hear, I'm referring specifically to the person that was sitting  with his back towards the camera on the excerpt that we saw.  Were you able to hear what he said, that person in the dialogue now?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I heard what he said but I am going to tell you one thing, I was driving the car and we were nine inside as for you to go and pick up somebody from the street and use them as a witness, that is your business.  I don't know this person, I was the one who was driving the vehicle and I was in charge of the group of nine, about the tenth one - that I am not aware of.  I was the one who was involved in this operation.  You are not the one to come and tell me how many people were there.  I'm the one who can tell you.

MR BOOYENS: So what you are really saying then, if I may summarise, is that story that that person has been telling there is completely untrue and he wasn't part of your group.

JIMMY MBANE: I am saying to you we were nine inside the kombi and I'm standing by that.  I was in charge.  For you to go and take some other people for some other ulterior motives, that's none of my business.

MR BOOYENS: Also the statement the person made that apparently they were already planning that operation and that you only joined them later you obviously don't agree with that either, two weeks before the time, you don't agree with that either?

JIMMY MBANE: Let me talk to you again, your honour, I'm telling you that this operation started in my presence, for you to go and scout around for people in order to defend your client is none of my business, can you please proceed to the next question your honour. Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, now let us deal with your version.  There's just one aspect that worries me.  You were told by Bellinghan specifically and Liebenberg, to train these completely untrained people.

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct.  There was only person who was training this group, it was Rasta.  This one who came with the issue that he was trained and I feel that you are trying to defend your client.  I'm here to talk the truth and not to lie.  If you're trying to use lies in order to defend your client that's your business.  Whatever I'm saying now is what I saw.  So please don't try and defend your client and purport - don't give the impression I'm saying lies in order in order to defend your client. I was in charge of this operation.  Just tell the whole Commission that Bellingan was not there because that is exactly what you want to portray and you want to defend him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say in this answer of yours where you've gone on and on that "I was told to train these people,   only one person was training them and that was Rasta".

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct you honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Rasta training them?