Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: My Lord, if you are given instructions, we were told every day to harass them, that is the reason why we used force.  Even if the person was telling the truth, we were supposed to harass him according to the orders so that this person can leave his organisation.
	He shouldn't take forward the aspirations of his organisation.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, you as a Security Policeman knew full well, that during the years 1986 and following, there was a whole range of legislation by which people like the ones that you referred to could be dealt with and some of them were.  Sebotsa for example was taken to court and he was sentenced to five years imprisonment, not so?
	People were charged and sent to prison.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am not against what you are saying.  They went to prison after heavy assault.

MR VISSER: But you see I am just trying to establish what could have gone in Mr Shaw's mind to tell you to arrest, to assault these people, even though they were cooperating, because you could simply take them to court, have them convicted and have them removed from the society.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I know that My Lord.  You did not know anything about the Security Branch.  The Security Branch since long ago, not now, I found them harassing people, assaulting people, this has been a long standing tradition.
	Many incidents took place.  You just told me that everything that Shaw was doing, what he was saying, but I want you to know because I worked there and I worked with him, I know all the instructions that we were given, I know the incidents that were taking place.
	Maybe one day I am just going to be called, Motsamai come, the TRC wants you.  My Lord, we were harassing people, we were assaulting people.  They know themselves that we were harassing people.

MR VISSER: And was this really just a pure act of aggression, nothing to do with anything else, but just aggression against these people, is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Can you please elaborate, when you talk of aggression do you mean were we aggressive or were they aggressive?

MR VISSER: Well, let's talk about Lieutenant Shaw.  He tells you to assault these people, to harass them, whether they cooperate or not, whether they were men or whether they were women, it doesn't matter, you've just got to assault them.
	Is this just an act of aggression for no reason whatsoever, it seems, I am putting it to you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am repeating myself now My Lord.  The commands that we were given, we were not just harassing these people for fun or for the fact that they were aggressive or we were aggressive, they were assaulted because they were not in line with the government of those days.

MR VISSER: I see.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: And the instructions I still maintain, were given from that office.  The other important thing many things were kept secret in the Police Service or anywhere because an instruction was that anything that happens within the office, should end up in the office.
	Nothing should go outside, that is why every time we were involved in these incidents, we were told and they told us this is going to be the result, so that it is not realised, do this.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, yes, let's try to keep it a little bit shorter if you will.  If you can explain a little bit more brief.  The question here is this, was this a standing instruction that you worked under in the years that you worked in the Security Branch or was this a one off instruction that you received from  Shaw?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This was a day to day instruction when we went to fetch people, it was an instruction.  Fire should be put out and that instruction would be given - go out, fetch these people.

MR VISSER: Why, why on earth would anyone have to repeat the instructions to you every single morning?  Was it so difficult to understand?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't understand your question, Mr Visser.  I mean, it is not what the witness is saying or is capable of not conveying what the witness is saying.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the man has given evidence to what we, I understand to mean, this is what the Security Branch did throughout the years.  I asked that specifically.
	Throughout the years that he worked there.  He said we were told to go out, to harass people and to assault them and I am asking him why is it necessary, and I asked him was this a one off thing in this particular case for which you are applying for amnesty.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He says in each instance, before he assaulted, each instance, he would get instructions to assault.

MR VISSER: That is how I understood it Mr Chairman, and the question now is ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It was aimed, he has just told us, he would get instructions to go out and fetch these people.  As I understand what he is saying, it is when they were told to go and fetch people, they were told to assault, not just each morning resiting it whether they were going to do something or not.

MR VISSER: I understand Mr Chairman, what the both of you are saying, with respect, but your evidence is that every time you were told to go and fetch somebody, you were told to assault.  Every single time.  Is that your evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was this only from Lieutenant Shaw or was this the normal practise in the Security Police, if other officers told you to do things, did they say the same thing or was this Lieutenant Shaw only?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There were other officers who were giving us instructions, it was not only Mr Shaw.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they give you instructions to assault people in the same way?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, they were also giving us such instructions.

MR VISSER: The evidence which you have just given, in reply to the Honourable Chairman's question, did you tell your Counsel, Mr Memani about this, that there were other people as well that gave you these instructions?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think this question has got a tendency to violate the Attorney/client privilege.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a fairly normal question and the next comment is, in that case why didn't he put it.

MR VISSER: Would you just answer that question then please, Mr Motsamai, did you tell your Counsel about what you've just told this Committee?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I did not tell him.

MR VISSER: All right.  Do you also agree that this is the first time that you mentioned it in your evidence before this Committee?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I agree.  Because I said many things happened and some of the incidents, we have committed many  where we were given instructions by other officers.  Even if I did not tell my representative all this, I think as I give my evidence, they come back to my mind and I will add them.

MR VISSER: Did Commissioner Ngoepe wish to - I am sorry, I thought you wanted to intervene.  You still want to do so?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Perhaps Mr Visser and Counsel, I think I should explain to you what I was discussing with the Chairman, because I couldn't understand Mr Visser's question as to why the witness did not mention other people, because I thought we have been mentioning a lot of names since we started the hearing.
	I thought the witness had been mentioning quite a lot of, implicating quite a lot of people, so I just thought perhaps I missed something.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, then I suppose you did because these questions concerns only this incident and only this particular one and at the end of his evidence in regard to his item 13, he was asked by my learned friend, did anybody give you instructions and he said, yes, Shaw did.
	And I think that is how the Chairman understood it and that is what his question was based on.