Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR TIPP: Did you see the man in the red T-shirt again after that? This is after this the second time that you shot. Did you see the man ever again?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No I didn't, not amongst the people who were lying on the ground.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale you just told the committee that when you looked over the parapet after you fired the second shot, this is now after you've come up again, you saw people lying in the direction which you had shot, do you concede that the shot which you fired at the man in the red T-shirt that certain of the pellets from that shot could have hit the people who you saw lying on the ground after that?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I did think because he was not alone on that spot. There were some other people around him. So I would concede that there are some that were killed by my shots or my pellets.

MR TIPP: Do you know that for a fact or are you conceding it as a possibility that people could have been killed or injured by your shot?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I concede to it as a possibility, I don't consider it to be a fact. I am not very sure that's why I say it is possible that it happened because there were other people milling around this particular guy so it's possible that I hit them and injured them.

MR TIPP: Also Mr Llale when you fired your first shot were there people in the vicinity of this man in the red T-shirt who could have been hit and either killed injured by that shot of yours?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is possible.

MR TIPP: You've also told the Committee that when you fired the second shot that there the people or the members of the crowd around this man with the red T-shirt they were moving in all directions, now were any of them moving away from you?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think that is also a possibility, that's why I was saying they were running in all directions. Some were running towards the corner, that is the corner of de Villiers and King George and I think they felt that they should run towards that direction.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale do you therefore concede that it is possible that a number of the marchers could've been killed or injured by you having shot and that they could've been shot in the back?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I do concede to that.

MR TIPP: You've since been shown the medical evidence or told about the medical evidence and you were told that there are four of the deceased who were shot from the back. Just for completeness sake Mr Llale you concede that it is possible that any one of those four could have been struck by one or other of the shots that you fired. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is correct.

MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee why you believed it was necessary for you, at the time, why you believed for you to have fired those two shots. What in essence was happening that you felt needed to be responded to by your shots?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At the time I saw people who were dangerous who were charging the Shell House. And the second thing was that as there was this man who was wearing this red T-shirt and brandishing this dangerous weapon I realised that if I did not shoot him he was going to pose more of a threat to us as well as other people that I was working with. So I felt it was my duty to do something in order to prevent this man from doing anything to the people that I was working with so I made it my duty to nip him in the bud before he could do anything. I realise that if this guy was left to act in an irresponsible manner I was going to hold myself responsible at the end of the day if people could be killed.

MR TIPP: Who do you fear people could've been killed if you had not taken action, who were those people?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The first people were some guards who were outside as well as the people inside the building for instance Joe Nhlanhla. I was responsible to safeguard Joe Nlanhla's life. Thabo Mbeki as well and other diplomats as well as the office workers within the house.

MR TIPP: ....at the time what would've happened if the marchers had in fact gained access to Shell House and people had been killed, what did you think would then happen?

MOSES VELI LLALE: What was uppermost in my mind at that time was that if they gained access there were people at the foyer, and during that day we were not working, it was not a normal working day, there were some leaders who were within the building itself. They could've gained access and killed some of the leaders and we wouldn't have been able to proceed towards the elections and we wouldn't have been able to gain democracy.

MR TIPP: You say in your amnesty application at page 105 that, as you've just said now, that the elections wouldn't have taken place and the country would've been plunged - would've been in a state of civil war. Why did you think that would happen if the marchers had gained access to Shell House?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I'll be very brief in answering this question. What I'll say is I remember very well that there was an incident that happened in Boiphatong when we were with the President together with his bodyguards. When we got to Boipatong the people were quite violent they wanted to fight the president asking him as to why he allowed such a situation to happen whereby they were getting killed. I had already seen the anger in the people and that if these people could get into the building and kill the leaders everybody, especially the youth of that time, wouldn't have accepted that there was going to be some state of war especially against the hostel residents.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale now that you concede the possibility that people could have been injured or killed by you as they were running away, this is particularly so in relation to your second shot that you fired, what feelings do you have about that acknowledging that possibility that you could've been responsible for their deaths or their injuries?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't know whether - let me just talk about the people who died. I felt very bad because it was a large number of people who died. As far as I am concerned it is not only people who died in that Shell House incident but within the country at large the organisers who had organised the march are also to blame. Why didn't they make proper preparations for this meeting? Because some of the people who died are not particularly IFP members, but they were killed on that day because of the state of violence that prevailed during that day.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale I want you to confine yourself to the people who could've been shot by you in the back as they were running away. I want to know do you have any feelings in relation to them, bearing in mind the feelings you have in relation to the other people who died in Johannesburg on that day, in relation to the people who whose deaths you could be responsible for or whose injuries you could be responsible for, what are your feelings in that regard?

MOSES VELI LLALE: My feelings haven't changed. I express a lot of regret with regard to the people who died or might have died under my hand because human life is very precious. Even a thief you don't wish to kill a thief. So I am not a cold-blooded murderer. I express a lot of regret because I know that some members of the gallery have lost their loved ones. They've lost members of their families and some are orphans and others widows so that doesn't gell well with me.

MR TIPP: Just to conclude Mr Llale in respect of those people who could've been injured or killed by you as they were running away those shots, particularly your second shot, that you now seek amnesty for, is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is correct.

MR TIPP: Thank you Chairperson I have no further questions.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson by agreement in the parties I will go first.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Llale are you going to make use of the interpreter or are you going to respond in English now?