Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

CHAIRPERSON: But the question was, well what was put to you, Mr Siqhola, was that Brig Dengana says that never gave you instructions to torture or ill-treat people whether he did so himself is a different matter but what was put to you was that he never gave you instructions to ill-treat or torture people.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He did give instructions.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed, Mr Siqhola, that the instructions, the chain of command, you as a junior, being a constable, you were not dealing directly with this Brig Dengana, you were under the immediate command or Col Boyi?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That was supposed to be the case according to the regulations but it did not happen like that.  Yes, that is supposed to be like that, that is supposed to be the procedure.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that the only instructions that you would receive from your immediate commander would be warrants of arrests of warrants of detention and that also would not have been given directly to you but to a senior officer that would go with you to look for suspects.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I would be given such instructions directly sometimes, sometimes they would be in writing.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that the warrants that were handed to you by your immediate commanders did not authorise you to torture and assault and ill-treat people, your warrants were meant for you to arrest people.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is true.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that you were attached within the security branch to an investigative unit and my clients as your seniors all what they were doing was to authorise the warrant of arrest and detentions and they have no knowledge what happened thereafter during the course of the investigation that was headed by Col Boyi.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There was nothing called investigative unit except for the fact that each and every member there was involved in investigations.  It was not a case whereby you find specific members being called the investigative unit.  That would be in our hands to sort out ourselves, to group ourselves to go and investigate different issues.  There was no specific unit that was mandated for that job.  They know nothing about that, they cannot say anything about the investigative unit.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed to deny that the gentlemen officers that you have listed in your affidavit had any knowledge of your activities?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They do have knowledge and I can even quote.

MR MADIKIZELA: What are those instances?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was instructed by Brig Dengana and the head office to go to Germiston to meet with people at the Germiston Police Station, people who were going to abduct a certain Mr Dumalisile to be taken in the car and run away with him and come back and I did exactly that.  I was instructed by Gen Kawe, given a new ...(indistinct) rifle on our way to Willowvale and he is the one who issued instructions.  We didn't know what was happening there and this strongroom was opened on that particular day of which I did not know about and one picked the firearm that he liked.  I was instructed by the head office to deport people, to just take them just across Kei River.  That is one of the examples.  That is some examples.

MR MADIKIZELA: Have you instructions to specifically deny knowledge on the part of my clients of the methods you have listed in paragraph 10.2 which you claim to have been popularly known within the security branch that were used to torture people?  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I am saying they are fully aware of those and they were at a certain distance of where you are right now and I was here in this office and they would hear what was happening in this office.  During the torture they would come in, into the office, come in and go out and they were fully aware of what was happening there and if the people were not prepared to tell the truth the person would be referred to a TV.  That method was called a TV because it is where the people would see everything that he or she was denying.

MR MADIKIZELA: Let's come to the specific incident at Willowvale.  My instructions are that on the day in question you were out on investigative duties looking for people who had attacked the Umtata Police Station with no specific intentions to go to this particular - sorry, that there was no specific instructions to go to that particular homestead at Willowvale.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was given direct instructions from Gen Kawe, I can even explain that.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed that my clients received information that there was a shoot out at this homestead in Willowvale?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, they know very well that they are the people who had sent us there.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that Gen Kupe, who was then stationed at Butterworth, then visited the scene as a senior officer.  He was not involved in the sense of giving instructions, he was there to observe what was happening.  He did not give instructions.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Gen Kupe was shot at while he was still busy with the police parade and he was shot at with an AK-47 meaning he was fully involved in the operation.

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are that Gen Kupe was shot at a time when you had retreated as a result of the gunfire that was coming from the forest and when he went to the motor vehicles to pick some radios that you needed in order to go into the forest, he was shot at that stage?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We were called to a parade.  During the parade Brig Kupe was responsible.  We were going to be combined and get inside the forest to locate this terrorist and when he was still busy with the parade that's when he was shot at.  I was present, I didn't go to the car to fetch a radio, I had nothing to do with the radio at the time.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed further that Gen Kupe, after being injured, he was taken away from the scene by helicopter to hospital and at the time when the destruction of the homestead and the shop occurred he was no longer at the scene?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I cannot attest to that but each and every person who was there was under the supervision of the senior officers.  I don't know what happened to him thereafter.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed by Col Fetman that he also visited the scene as a senior officer who was not commanding any of the units that were there.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He is the one who took the AK-47 to Boy Jafta and when he took it and then he turned it over and whipped him with this AK-47 butt.

MR MADIKIZELA: Let's get this clear, Mr Siqhola, my instructions are specifically to deny that the gentleman I've mentioned gave instructions that anybody should be shot at, specifically Gen Kupe, Col Fetman.  My instructions are to deny that they gave instructions at that particular homestead that you should fire or that you should destruct property.  They merely admit being there, senior officers, who were caught up in the crossfire, who had visited the scene as senior officers?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I still maintain that they were there involved also in the operation.

MR MADIKIZELA: But I think you still don't get the question.  We don't deny that General Kupe ...(intervention)

MR LAX: He has answered you twice in the same way.  He's got your question but he just doesn't agree with your question.