Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I mean that I became the owner of that group, the area where those people had houses and whenever there were problems, different opinions, I would be able to solve such problems because I knew very well that the people shouldn't fight one another belonging to the same group.  I used to try by all means and show them the way because I knew that if I would let that happen, it would be easier for the enemies to get in.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please explain further, explain the word the "owner" of the group?  When you were made this official of this group, was there any conflict in the group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, there was nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you just assuming when you say you were preventing the conflict in the group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: If they were differing in opinion, I would only solve that problem, because I was trying to make sure that there's no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anything like that, different opinions?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, they would quarrel with dagga or tobacco or something.

CHAIRPERSON: The problems that you had as a group, was it because of dagga and what else?  Can you please explain further?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: And tobacco, different types of tobacco, cigarettes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those the most important things in your group that would cause conflict?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: That was something that I would look at it and I knew that being a minor thing like that it could lead to argument and to physical conflict, therefore I would try and solve those problems and tell the people that it's not necessary to fight over such issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore that was your job as a leader in the group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, you mentioned that after Mdo's death you were made the owner of this group.  Do you know ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just preferably use a leader, instead of an owner.  We understand what he intends to convey to us.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair.

MR MALAN: Mr Panday and just before you proceed, just to elucidate the matter for me, Mr Ngwenye, were you all employed at that stage, working on farms or where did the people, the group, where did they work?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: There were places like ...(indistinct) Westbrook, they would go and do some casual job there.  They would go and work and come back to their houses.  I went on taking some casual jobs and come back to my house.

MR MALAN: Did you quit your work at the farm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Why did you do that?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: The reason for me to quit my job, at the time when I arrived in that area when I left a place to meet with the people from Virginia Airport, this other group, my group, was known to my brother and my brother knew that I had joined that group and I realised that if I go on working there, it's going to cause some problems, because those were the people who were owning the area, they were IFP members, even the people who were working there, some of them were IFP members, but even during discussions I wouldn't reveal the reason for me to leave my own home because I didn't know whether I was telling the people who were also working together with those people.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure I got an answer for my question as to why you left your employment at the farm.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I left my job because I was afraid of my brother.

MR MALAN: Was he also employed at the farm, your brother?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, he was not working there.

MR MALAN: Mr Panday, you may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to probably try and explain how I understand your evidence.  Your brother was not staying very far from where you were working at that time.  You were working at the compound and your brother was staying very close to where you were working.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, Shayamoya is next to the place where I was working.  The people there were one.  The people from Shayamoya would come there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that's why you left, because your brother was IFP?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And was trying to persuade you to join IFP?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, he never made any utterances like that, he was just asking, he wanted to know the reason for me to leave home, to get to that place.  I just told him that I was just looking for a job and that was the place where I got the job.  He told me that he was staying at Shayamoya and he told me that he was a leader there.  I said, "That's fine".  Because I was working, I did not take note of that, I did not even tell him that I left there because I was shot, I only revealed that to the group, the one that I later joined.

CHAIRPERSON: So when your affidavit alludes to the fact that you left your employment at the farm, because your brother had persuaded you to join the IFP, that statement in that affidavit is incorrect?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I just want you to understand me very well.  This brother of mine, Mashinela, is a brother of mine who left home permanently to stay at Shayamoya.  The brother of mine that I'm talking about now is the one that was left behind at my home at Ndwedwe.  Those were the people who wanted me to join this group at Ndwedwe, my home.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about no one other than your brother, Mr Mashinela, who  you were linking up with at the time when you were employed at this farm.  I'm not talking about your brother at Ndwedwe and neither did my colleague seek to refer to your brother at Ndwedwe.  Your brother at Ndwedwe has not been mentioned in any of your affidavit, nor have you made mention of him during the viva voce evidence you so far given before this Committee.  I don't know how you come to confuse the two brothers, because we are only concerned with the incident that occurred at Virginia Airport not far from Shayamoya and we are not concerned with things that happened at Ndwedwe.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He never told me to join his organisation.  He never mentioned anything about his group, I will not lie to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a councillor in Shayamoya?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he was.

CHAIRPERSON: So when your affidavit states that you left your employment at the farm because of your brother's persuasion that you should join the IFP, that statement in that respect is incorrect?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I want to request you to listen carefully to this.  I am saying I left my job on the farm.  My brother had realised that I was no longer there, I was with this other group at the Virginia Airport and he knew that group as the people who were his enemies, so it was going to be easier for him to realise that I was working with those people, I'm not there to be with him, therefore I automatically became an enemy, his enemy, and I knew that I was in danger because you couldn't be with people whereas you did not belong to their group.

CHAIRPERSON: If you don't listen to my question, we might be here until the cows come back home.  This is a very simple statement I was putting to you.  It only wanted a yes or no.  Now the affidavit that was taken from you by our investigator that you actually imprinted your thumbprint thereon, states, that is paragraph 9 and I'm going to read to you what the investigator took from you as a result from what you told the investigator.  This is what you told the investigator
"I left my employment in the farm because my brother," and by this brother you mean "Eric Ngcobo Aka Mashinela, persuaded me to join IFP".
This is what you supposedly told the investigator when he came to take a statement from you.  Do you understand what is contained in that affidavit, yes or no?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I do understand that, but the fact that he was the one who was persuading me to join, Mashinela that is, I do not remember anything like that.