Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Then Mrs Chair I think I was just maybe in a hurry to write the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware we are talking about a supplementary affidavit that was prepared by you with the assistance of a lawyer?  How can you be in a hurry to do something when you are coming to a Committee to disclose your participation about an offence for which you are seeking amnesty.  How can you be in a hurry to do something and in the process you say something which did not happen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair this morning the advocate only handed me only this morning this affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that affidavit was not prepared in consultation with you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: He only consulted this morning Mrs Chair, this morning we have consultation, it wasn't even long.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is reflected in that affidavit is not correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I couldn't say Mrs Chair because right now where I am I am a bit confused also now.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's forget about the affidavit which you say - now, yes?

MS THABETE: I just want to come in here.  In his application he actually says"
"Ashley tipped me off about the two Indian security that were investigating us and that they should be eliminated"
but in the supplementary affidavits - and then he says he took an initiative to do this but in the supplementary affidavit it doesn't say anything about Ashley having given the instructions to eliminate them.  So I wanted him to clarify that.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Here by 3.6 it said "after being informed"

MS THABETE: Yes, you were not instructed, you were just informed, the two policemen were looking for you and then you say you took initiative to eliminate them, you don't say you were given instructions to eliminate them?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes if we can closer at the end of the day I didn't draw up this affidavit at the end of the day.

MS THABETE: Wasn't it read to you before you ...[intervention]

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was only this morning given to me.

MS THABETE: But it was read to you, isn't it?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MS THABETE: Why didn't you identify that fault?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I'm sorry about it Mrs Chair.

MS THABETE: I mean it's an important factor because you're saying here, what you're saying here is that you did it on your own, no one gave you instructions to do it?  It's not just a misprint or whatever, it's a ...[intervention]

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well at the end of the day I was given an instruction to get rid of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to take that issue further you are saying you were given an instruction by Ashley?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes it was an order.

CHAIRPERSON: And if Ashley had not given you that instruction you wouldn't have killed, you wouldn't have committed the acts you did, that is killing one person and severely injuring the other?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That's right Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, how then does it become your stated objective to send a message to the security branch about the fact that you can no longer tolerate the harassment and the intimidation they were subjecting the members of your community to?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair, as I said that was my message I wanted to get through.  I don't know how would the cops have taken it, that was my message I tried to get through at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: So you also wanted to commit the act because you as Mr Plaatjies wanted to send this message to the security branch?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And that message couldn't have been as a result of the instructions you got from Mr Bashing?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair at the end of the day I was a foot soldier of Mr Bashing so at the end of the day I would have listened, I wouldn't have gone out of my own way and just go and planned anything without any order.

CHAIRPERSON: You keep on telling us at the end of the day this would have happened, this wouldn't have happened.  I just want to know how if it was your own stated objective to send a clear message to the security branch to stop the harassment and the intimidation, the subjecting your community to.  How can that happen if that never was your own intention to kill?  How can you have a stated objective which really didn't emanate from you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day as I say Mrs Chair as I said earlier on it was nothing that I could have done.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair.  Mr Plaatjies you also say that when Ashley Bashing informed you about the policemen who were investigating you, he did not point them out to you.  On what basis then did you target these two men who were driving in an Uno?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day there's in our community not sommer actually you get Indians in our vicinity, most of this is coloured area.  During that time I just target, we just abducted them.

MS THABETE: So I don't know whether I'm hearing correctly are you saying ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, I just didn't hear the first part of your answer?  You just something them and then you abducted them, what did you say?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I said in our community ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Yes, no I heard that but the last part of your answer was you said Indians weren't common in your community, then you said I just something them and then we abduct them?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: The day when they approach us, we abducted them.

MR LAX: Before that you said something about "I just" something "them and then we abduct them" that was your reply.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Maybe it was just a slip of the tongue Mr Chair.

MS THABETE: Mr Plaatjies are you saying you identified them on the basis that they were Indian?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes and Ashley Bashing as I said, during that week, they were pointed also out, wouldn't just remember as I said in my chief ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: No, in your evidence you specifically said and clearly said
	"Ashley Bashing did not point them out to me."

MR LAX: Sorry Ms Thabete, it's the other way around.

MS THABETE: Thanks, I stand to be corrected.
	You've also said in your evidence that you were present at all material times when the incident took place, is that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Mrs Chair.

MS THABETE: And you say you were the commander or you instructed the other guys to carry out the whole robbery and whatever happened that day, is that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I couldn't say I instructed them for the robbery because it was not my intention, it was not part of the deal or the order to rob those guys so if any other torturing ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: My question to you is that if you were the instructor and you had the political objective and these were just people from your area, why didn't you say anything, why didn't you reprimand them when you saw them robbing, robbing of the watches and all that?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said earlier on in my evidence there wasn't time to see people get robbed as Mrs Chairman also asked me about the credit cards, there was no time to look because I was busy assaulting those guys at the end of the day.  I didn't - my eyes - because we were panicking that day.

MS THABETE: No but isn't it correct that you actually got into the car of Mr Makanjee and Padajachee and that you were seated in front, isn't that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes you must - as I said the investigators at one time, when I get out and went and fetch hangers ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: I don't understand your evidence.  How could you not have seen, I mean you were sitting in front, how could you have not seen when they were out of their watching ...[intervention]