Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: No, I am talking about your loyalty.  You were there under duress.  You didn't want to be there because you were really loyal to the ANC but because of duress, you were working at Vlakplaas.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: And if it wasn't for the duress, you would never have worked at Vlakplaas.

JIMMY MBANE: I wouldn't work for Vlakplaas, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: In fact, would I be correct if I said you hated working at Vlakplaas?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't like that kind of work.

MR BOOYENS: And did you feel the things that you were forced to do at Vlakplaas were wrong?  You were in fact fighting against the very people you were loyal to.

JIMMY MBANE: I could see that all those things were not right.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, and you were in fact being forced to fight the people that you were loyal to?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct Sir.

MR BOOYENS: So you were really an ANC member forced into, figuratively speaking, the uniform of the enemy, and fighting for the enemy.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: During this eight years, did you supply any information to the ANC?  Or to the UDF about the activities of Vlakplaas?

JIMMY MBANE: No, there's nothing that I told the ANC about.

MR BOOYENS: Did you ever warn or attempt to warn when you learnt about operation where members of the ANC's life would be endangered?  Did you ever attempt to warn them about that, bearing in mind your loyalties?

JIMMY MBANE: No I never did.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: If I would try such a thing, we were actually guarding each other against such things of leaking information.  We would be eight in a kombi, each and every one of us assigned to keep an eye on a certain person, so if I would do such a thing, I would be in trouble.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, let's just take the operation here at Guguletu.  Here you were...you couldn't have been in Eric Maluleka's company all the time, because you told us that he didn't have a driver's licence.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you had opportunities to warn these people if you wanted to. Not so?  You were alone with them.

JIMMY MBANE: Most of the time I was with Eric Maluleka.  We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg.  I would...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you seriously suggesting that you were in Eric Maluleka's presence all the time, 24 hours a day?

JIMMY MBANE: I was with Eric Maluleka 24 hours a day.  We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg.  I would leave Eric behind.

MR BOOYENS: If you had an opportunity to warn these people that they were about to be led into an ambush, would you have done so?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I would warn them, knowing very well that I am also putting my life in danger.

MR BOOYENS: Notwithstanding the fact that your own life was in danger, you would warn them, is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: I wouldn't warn them because I would be in trouble, because the operation was already going on.

MR BOOYENS: No, but unless I misunderstood you or there was something wrong with the interpretation, the question just before this that came through my...the answer that came was that you would have warned them.  My Lord, that's my recollection, I may be wrong but....

JIMMY MBANE: If I had a chance to warn them, I would do so.

MR BOOYENS: Because, obviously you were loyal to the ANC, you were disloyal to Vlakplaas because you didn't like what Vlakplaas was doing and you felt that this operation was wrong - this ambush.  That is why you would have warned them, right?

JIMMY MBANE: I knew that all the things we were doing there at Vlakplaas were not right, because we were killing our brothers.
	If I had an option, I would warn these people, if I had an opportunity to do so.

MR BOOYENS: Well, I am going to suggest to you that on any of the occasions, if you really wanted to warn them, that you left Maluleka alone and left with the motor vehicle to go and report to your superiors in the police force, you could have warned these people.  You could have sent Maluleka on an errand, you could have done a variety of things if you wanted to warn these people.
	What you are telling this Commission now is simply not true.

JIMMY MBANE: I would I dump Eric Maluleka if I wanted to warn these people?  How would I do that?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, you needed two or three minutes to say to one of them: "Don't come tomorrow morning, the police know about this".  Or you could have simply slipped out to them the information that the police were going to ambush them, that they must postpone the operation if you were really given...had one bit of concern for these people as you are now claiming to have had.

JIMMY MBANE: If I had that type of an opportunity, I would do that.
	Unfortunately I didn't get the opportunity to warn them.

MR BOOYENS: You could have called one of them aside and in less than thirty seconds, have warned him.  Not so?

JIMMY MBANE: What would happen to my life...what would happen to my safety if I would do such a thing?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but earlier on, your safety wasn't such a serious concern, it was just the practical impossibility to warn them that worried you.  So now the main reason is your own safety:  you were prepared to let them die for your own safety.  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: I would like to...if you could please give me permission to clarify this point again.
	If you are given a mission, you've got to fulfil that mission, you've got to do as instructed.  If it fails, you are in danger,  if the mission fails I would be in danger.  Isn't that so?

MR BOOYENS: No, you tell us.  I was never a member of Vlakplaas.

JIMMY MBANE: I was there.  That's why I am telling you that my life would be in danger.

MR BOOYENS: So to return to my question:  the fact that you didn't warn them was simply because you valued your own skin more than warning these people who were going to be killed.  That is really the bottom line of your answer.

JIMMY MBANE: It was just the same.  Life is the same.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you came down to Cape Town...in January.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Just dealing with your background slightly further before that, you are an experienced witness.  Is that correct?  You have testified in a number of cases?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You testified against Mr Patrick Lekota in the Delmas trial.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You testified in Natal in the trial of Tuso Tshika and four others, is that correct?  As Mr X?

JIMMY MBANE: I can't remember, but I have attended a number of trials, but I won't remember all the places.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  But you have testified many times as Mr X.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You have testified against your erstwhile Comrades, and gave testimony to the best of your ability to get them into jail for as long as possible.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Tried never to make any mistakes.

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did it worry you to testify against your erstwhile Comrades?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it worried me but I didn't have a choice.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, you have told us that.  So, Mr Mbane, you knew the importance of telling the investigators when you made your statements, everything making full and comprehensive statements.  Is that correct?
	When you start preparing for a trial, right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And obviously you knew the importance thereof to make sure that your statement that would go the Prosecutor in those trials that you testified, would be comprehensive, full and free of mistakes to make sure that they lead your evidence the correct way.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right.