Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

UNKNOWN: I would appreciate it if my learned friend did not try to lead the witness on so vital a matter.  An answer has already been given.  I would appreciate it if no leading questions are asked to try and shift the witness from what he has said, unwittingly as it may be. I accept my learned friend's bona fides, but I appeal that he should be very careful that he does not try - that he does not repeat questions in a manner which may indicate to the witness that the answer is not as self-serving as he might have thought.

MR BOOYENS: I agree with that objection by my learned friend, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You say that Mr Biko staggered backwards. Could you tell us what happened immediately after he was shouldered.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, at that time Warrant-Officer Marx and Detective-Officer Niewoudt joined in to bring assistance in order to shackle and handcuff him again.

MR BOOYENS: The deceased;  how did the deceased respond?

MR SNYMAN: During this entire time he was resistant.  He fought against the people.  There was a general melee happening at that time.

MR BOOYENS: In an effort to shackle him again, you are saying that there was a fight, a melee.  What kind of fight was this?  What did he attempt to do?

MR SNYMAN: People were punching at each other.  It was not possible to see who hit whom or whether all of the punches hit the mark.  In the process everyone fell on top of each other at the northern end of the office towards the wall.

MR BOOYENS: How did this occur that they fell on top of each other like that?

MR SNYMAN: It was because of this very intense shuffle in the efforts to bring him under control to shackle him.

MR BOOYENS: That is fine.  Can you describe to us;  your are referring to the wall on the north and the falling on each other.  Could you describe that incident in your own words as far as you
can recall the exact facts of the incident?

MR SNYMAN: The fight between the members and Mr Biko at that time became a very violent struggle.  Mr Biko was on the one end and in the process of the shuffle he fell and the others fell on top of him.  He was then pushed towards the wall and  ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, my learned friend is entitled to lead the witness as he pleases within the - within the directions that the Committee may give.
	The very least that I would draw attention to is, is that on this vital part of the witness's story, he's reading it out from a prepared document.  
	I merely wish to place on record that if he intends to argue that any weight should be placed on this witness's evidence, in his own interest he should not be seen to be reading the story out.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, in so far as my learned friend's objection is concerned, I think he will accept my word;  the only document in front of the witness is in fact his amnesty application.  That's the document that he's got.  So it's not another prepared document.  I trust my learned friend and I know each other well enough that he will accept my assurance in this regard, but he is welcome to have a look at it.  That's the only document in front of him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.  Just formulate your questions as
fairly as you can.

MR BOOYENS: Yes. Immediately before Mr Bizos referred to the document;  the document in front of you;  is that your amnesty application?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Could you - or rather let us return; you were referring to the wall and where the people fell.  Could you explain from there onwards what occurred?

MR SNYMAN: An effort was then made to shackle Mr Biko again.  He was lying with his head partly against the wall and at that time it appeared as if he was completely confused.

MR BOOYENS: Could you attempt to give us a clearer picture?  You say that he was lying with his head partly against the wall;  could you describe his position for us?  Could you attempt to?

MR SNYMAN: His body was on the wall and his head was sort of lying against the wall.

MR BOOYENS: What would his state have been?  In what state would he have been?

MR SNYMAN: I would almost explain it like someone who had been knocked out in a boxing match.  You could see that he was dazed.

MR BOOYENS: You've referred to shackling.  Was he in fact shackled?

MR SNYMAN: After a time his hands were cuffed in front of him.

MR BOOYENS: What then happened after he was handcuffed with his hands in front of him?  Was he still lying on the floor or had he been pulled up or what was the case?

MR SNYMAN: He was still lying on the ground.  Subsequently the members picked him up.

MR BOOYENS: While being shackled, did he lie or sit or what?

MR SNYMAN: He was half sitting, half lying on the ground.

MR BOOYENS: His hand were then shackled in front or behind his back?

MR SNYMAN: In front of his - of him.

MR BOOYENS: What then happened?  You say the members assisted him in rising;  what then occurred?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.  The members at a later point picked him up, undid the handcuffs and shackled his hands to the grille.  They also shackled his feet.

MR BOOYENS: You have indicated, when referring to the shackling of his hands to the metal grille that he was sort of spread-eagled, he was - his hands were spread sideways, his arms were drawn away from his body.
	One could then conclude that there was a shackle to every wrist which would then each have been shackled to the metal grille;  how was the foot shackles attached?

MR SNYMAN: Each of his feet were separately shackled to the metal grille by means of a chain that was attached to the metal gate or grille and this chain was woven through the bars of the metal grille or door.

MR BOOYENS: This investigation started roughly at nine o'clock in the morning as you have said to us already.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At - or rather, what would the length of the interrogation have been up to the incident as now described by yourself?

MR SNYMAN: I would believe that it was a matter of minutes.

MR BOOYENS: So at about what time would we have had the situation that the shuffle or the fight was over and Mr Biko was shackled or chained to the gate as you have described.

MR SNYMAN: It might well have been half-past-nine, roughly half-an-hour after the interrogation started.

MR BOOYENS: What, if anything, did you notice at that time with regard to Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I noticed, Your Honour, that he was speaking in a slurred manner.  His speaking was affected.  He spoke very unclearly.

MR BOOYENS: What, if anything, did you notice in addition to this?

MR SNYMAN: I noted that he had an injury on his lip and also to his body.

MR BOOYENS: The injury to his lip;  could you describe this more closely?  What, in fact, did you see?

MR SNYMAN: We noticed that he had bleeding on his lip and I thought that this was a consequence of the shuffle during which the attempt was made to bring him under control.

MR BOOYENS: He spoke in a slurred manner;  did you note anything beyond that which you have already mentioned?

MR SNYMAN: It was clear to me that at that time we could not continue with the interrogation.

MR BOOYENS: For what reason?

MR SNYMAN: He showed no response.

MR BOOYENS: What was your next action?

MR SNYMAN: I brought the matter to the attention of the commanding officer, Col Goosen.  I informed him of what had occurred and that it appeared to me that we could not continue with the interrogation, but that he first would have to come and look at the detainee.

MR BOOYENS: Did Goosen then accompany you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At that time Biko was still chained to the metal grille or gate?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What happened next?