Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

MR LUBBE: Although you don't have an independent recollection of his name, can you relate to the incident that is being described in the bundle by Mr Hlongwane?  And if so, please give us your version of what happened here.
MR SEEMISE
"Mxobogazi had issued out an instruction that the ANC youth should be attacked and killed.  We then left from Charles Maseko's home.  As we were near the sports ground and the Kati township, we saw one boy approaching.  He looked familiar because of the way he walked, but I wanted to ascertain and be certain that it was him.  I then proceeded and met him, approached him and greeted him and confirmed that yes, this was the person.  I then signalled to Sugar to that effect and he proceeded to shoot him.
		From there we went to report back to Mxobogazi that we had killed an ANC youth member.  I was not certain of his name, but I was sure that he was an ANC members because I would see him at ANC gatherings.  On the following day we learnt that yes, he had died."

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I ask you, did you attend ANC gatherings also?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Please repeat that question.

ADV SANDI: Did you also attend ANC gatherings?  You say this person you had seen at ANC meetings, did you also attend such ANC meetings?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: I did not attend ANC rallies, but we would see them when they were on their way to those occasions.

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	It's common cause, Mr Seemise, that all the incidents that you've testified about up until this stage, took place in the Ermelo district, but eventually the Black Cats also moved to Davel, to commit certain acts there, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: And in Exhibit A, paragraph 6.8, more specifically 6.8.1, .2 and .3.  On page 7 you refer to these incidents that took place in Davula.  Now I want you to turn to page 135 of the bundle which deals with these incidents.  Firstly, on page 135, Mr Hlongwane relates to the burning of two houses, the attack on two houses and the burning of that.  He simply refers to the Black Cats, and then on the next page 135, towards the seventh sentence it is indicated that yourself, Obed Hlambati, Bafana Khumalo and one, Sija, also accompanied the Black Cats.  Do you recall this incident where the two houses were attacked and burnt?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do recall the incident.

MR LUBBE: Maybe you should ...(indistinct) into the detail just indicate to the Committee what led the Black Cats to proceed from Ermelo to Davel.  What was the reason behind this, why did you move from point A to point B to pursue your attacks in that area?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: There was a Mr Mkhonza who resided at IFP, who was a Mayor and IFP member there and we learnt that he had been attacked by ANC members in that area.  This is the information that he conveyed to Mxobogazi, and I am not sure whether they met personally or he telephoned Mxobogazi.
	Mxobogazi then issued an order for us to proceed to Davula to attack there, and we were informed that Mr Mkhonza would direct us as to where we would attack specifically.  We then proceeded to Davula and met Mr Mkhonza at his home.  He informed us that he had been attacked by the ANC on the previous day.  Amongst those attackers were Philani Mtetwa and July Mtetwa.  There was also another person whose last name was Maluleka.  He then said that he would accompany us to point out the houses.  It was myself, Stiga, Obed, Bongani, Malinga and others whose names I cannot recall now.
	Mr Mkhonza gave us some petrol and we went to attack the first house.  On our arrival there we broke a window, poured petrol through the hole and lit the house.  There were people inside who started screaming, shouting for help.  We left that house immediately, proceeded to the second house.  We did the same, broke the windows, poured petrol and set the house alight.  That is where Sugar fired three shots as well.  We then returned to Mr Mkhonza'a house and reported that the task had been completed, and he congratulated us.

MR LUBBE: If I can just interpose here.  The houses that you attacked, were they identified by Mr Mkhonza or Mr Hlongwane?  Who indicated to you which homes are to be attacked?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: If I recall correctly it was Philani.

MR LUBBE: Philani.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Philani Mtetwa.

MR LUBBE: Was he a person who stayed at Davula, or knew the area?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, he resided at Davula.  He was also an IFP member.

MR LUBBE: Thank you.  Now there is reference on page 136, of the death of a certain woman as a result of the attacks on these two houses, have you got any personal knowledge as to what injuries, if any, were sustained by the residents of these two houses?  In other words, do you know whether somebody died in this attack and if so, do you know the name of the person or persons that died?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: I did not know the residents of Davula, and when we completed that operation we left for Ermelo, and we were not informed on who had sustained injuries or who had died as a result of that attack.

MR LUBBE: As far as your personal involvement in this incident is concerned, did you partake in the killing of someone, the killing of people, or did you merely throw petrol bombs?  What precisely did you do in this instance where the two houses were attacked?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: I carried the petrol and when the windows were broken, I poured the petrol and the others set the house alight.  I was amongst the people who broke the windows and poured the petrol into the house.

MR LUBBE: But you also associated yourself with any other member or members of the group that may have killed the residents of the homes, not so?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: And you also request the Committee to grant you amnesty in respect of any of the deaths that followed upon these attacks.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.