Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that this was not a matter of a simple interpretation, but it required the co-operation of a number of people including the applicant, but I gather we are now satisfied with the version that has been put up and we should, perhaps, mark it 35A so that it can go into the bundle after the original.  I would like to thank those who assisted us.  Carry on then.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I thank the Chair and the committee members for the time given in the, to effect that translation.  Just some few things that I want to say before we start with the applicants.  I want to refer the members of the committee to page 38 of the bundle.  Page 38 of the bundle.  On page 38 you will note, Mr Chairman, it is a report from the Investigative Unit and they indicate that there are three applicants, page 38 of the bundle, the last applicant being Tandukwazi Christopher Dlamini.  I just want to explain that he did apply and his application was sent back to him, because it was not properly filled up.  He did not respond and we served with another letter, reminding him that we still expect the application and that he needs to be enroled.  I have got copies of those letters from Cape Town office.  He did not respond.  The information that I got, which my learned friend will confirm, is that this man died a long time ago in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Surprising that the Prisons Department did not notify you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Kept like that and then moving to page 47 of the bundle.  Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we, I am reminded, we have not complied with the formality.  So before we continue can I say this is the, Wednesday the 30th of July.  The application of Mandlenkosi T Poswa and Mafoeka Anthony Nzimande.  I, Andrew Wilson, am acting as Chairman together with Mrs Khampepe and Mr Potgieter.  Would you two gentlemen please put yourselves on record.

MR WILLS: My name is John Wills, I am an attorney representing both applicants.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: J M Mpshe for the Truth Commission, particularly Amnesty Committee.  Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the committee.  Page 47 of the bundle.  My Chairman, you will note when reading the court record, the transcript that I gave to the members the other day and when looking at page 47 the name of the Nzimande does not appear on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: He is number six is he not?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I just wanted to note that he is number six.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  I then hand over to my learned friend.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, committee members I call the first applicant, M T Poswa, to give evidence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May you please stand up Mr Poswa.  Please give this committee your full names?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Mandlenkosi T Poswa.

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: (Duly sworn in, states).

SISI KHAMPEPE: May you be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, committee members.  Mr Poswa, you are here today in regard to an amnesty application in respect of an incident that occurred in Gengeshe near Richmond on the 26th of September 1992.  Is that correct?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: In that, in respect of that incident you were tried by the Supreme Court and found guilty of the murder of nine persons and the attempted murder of two persons.  Is that correct?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You were arrested and have been in custody in respect of this matter since the 2nd of October 1992.  Is that correct?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, I want to go through the list of persons that appear on the indictment and I refer the commission to page 48 of the indictment.  Do you know an individual called Anton Mohawu Shezi?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I do.  He is a member of an IFP.

MR WILLS: Do you know an individual by the name of Moentoe Mkhize?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I knew Mkhize.  He is, Moentoe Mkhize is also an IFP member.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person by the name of Mbuvani Nele?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I knew Mbuvani Nele.  He is an IFP member, upper Umkumazi.

MR WILLS: Do I understand it that this particular individual does not come from the Gengeshe area?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, he is not from Gengeshe.

MR WILLS: Do you know an individual by the name of Filapie Dlamini?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I do not know Filapie Dlamini.

MR WILLS: Do you know the brother-in-law of Becker Poswa?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I know Felise Dlamini.

MR WILLS: How do you, which political organisation does Felise Dlamini belong to?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: IFP member.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person by the name of Becker Poswa?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I know Becker Poswa.  He is an active IFP member.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person by the name of Mdudswa Madlala?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I know Mdudswa Madlala.  He stays at Umkumazi.  He is an IFP member.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person by the name of Namawakwe Gillie?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I know Namawakwe Gillie.  He is a very active IFP member.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person by the name of Jabulani Sithole?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Jabulani Sithole, I dot remember.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person by the name of Dumisani Mthembu?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I do not know Dumisani Mthembu.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person, and I refer the commission to page 49 of the bundle, a person by the name of Segen Pilile Sithole?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I know Segen Pilile Sithole.  He is an IFP member at Umkumazi.

MR WILLS: Do you know Tula Bhonwa Poswa.  From the record it appears that he is the grandson of a Poswa, if the court, if the commission will just bear with me, I will withdraw that question.  Do you know Tula Bhonwa Poswa?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I do not know him very well.  There are so many Tula Bhonwa Poswas.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now, it is common cause ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, are these people all male?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, they are all male.

CHAIRPERSON: And are the all adults?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, because they are above 20 years of age.

CHAIRPERSON: Go on.

MR WILLS: It is common cause, Mr Poswa, that you are an ANC member.  Is that correct?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, when did you first become an ANC member?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: From 1988 I was an ANC member.

MR WILLS: And my instructions are correct that you first received an ANC card in August 1992.  Is that correct?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I do not remember where, but I got my card in 1992.  I do not remember the month.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now, why did you join the ANC?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I liked the organisation, because it was fighting for human rights and also for liberation.

MR WILLS: Now, do you know an individual by the name of  Indaba Zimboeza Poswa?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I know Indaba Zimboeza Poswa.  He is a very high profile IFP member at Gengeshe.

MR WILLS: When you say high profile could you just explain to the committee what you mean.

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: He was the leader at Gengeshe.

MR WILLS: And by that you mean the IFP leader at Gengeshe?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you know whether or not this Indaba Zimboeza Poswa, Indaba Zimboeza Poswa was, what his attitude was to the ANC members who resided in Gengeshe?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: He did not want anyone who was an ANC member in Gengeshe.

MR WILLS: Do you know if he did anything to any ANC members in Gengeshe?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, I know.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to the committee please.

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Indaba Zimboeza Poswa did not like ANC members.  He wanted IFP to be the only party at Gengeshe.