Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

MR PRINSLOO: So the person would have had to enter in the door and pass on to you?  And the deceased?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: He was sitting closer to the door.

MR PRINSLOO: So the first applicant, if he had to go to the deceased, he would have been closest to him?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: What was the first thing you noticed while you were sitting at the television set?  What drew your attention to the people?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: My position in relation to the TV was such that I could from the corner of my eye, perceive the door, and I just suddenly saw movement at the door, and then saw these two persons at the door.  So there was a sudden movement that drew my attention to the door.

MR PRINSLOO: And the persons who entered, were immediately ready to attack?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, they were wearing balaclavas.

MR PRINSLOO: And you saw them with firearms in the hand, that is the way I understand your evidence?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So you realised at that stage, that these people were attacking you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, at that stage I didn't, I initially thought they were members of our Unit checking up whether we were awake at that stage, so initially I thought that these people were playing a practical joke on us.  It is only when they approached us that I saw the firearms and I could see that there were rounds in the chambers of the revolver, that I realised that they were serious.

MR PRINSLOO: And were you then frightened?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: When you saw that these people meant business?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And then what happened?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: As I said the one person moved to me and the other one to Terreblanche and they removed our firearms, and that is when Constable Terreblanche ...

MR PRINSLOO: When you saw these were not people of your own Section there, they had other intentions, and were threatening your life, did you act immediately?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I did not react immediately.  I think it was difficult to believe that this was actually happening to me and many things went through my mind, what should I do, where should I go.

MR PRINSLOO: Was that person immediately on his way to you, or what happened?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, I suppose one could say that he was immediately on his way to me.

MR PRINSLOO: Did your attention focus on the fact that he was on his way to you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did he do, the person who was coming towards you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: This is after they had told us to remove our weapons and they stopped us, they moved towards us in order to remove our firearms themselves.

MR PRINSLOO: I am just trying to understand this because everything is happening so quickly and it looks as if it is quite a small room, so if someone were to enter through the doorway and move towards you, when he moved towards you, he said remove your firearm.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, that was when they were still in the doorway.  When our attention was focused on them, they told us sit still.  That is when they were still in the doorway.  Sit still, don't do anything stupid.  And they also said remove your weapons, and as we began to do that, they said wait, leave it, and that is when they moved in.

MR PRINSLOO: You say them and they all the time, were they speaking together all the time?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, just one of them.

MR PRINSLOO: So it is not them as you have testified?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I beg your pardon.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, because your statement also refers to them.  So one person was speaking, who was the person speaking?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It was the person who was closest to Constable Terreblanche, the one with the pistol.

MR PRINSLOO: And did he speak quickly or slowly or in what way did he speak?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't say with clarity how quickly or slowly he spoke, but he didn't stutter if that is what you mean.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon, can you remember clearly what he said?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: What I can recall is that he said that we should sit still and not do anything stupid.  That is what I can remember.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you recall if he said to you don't try and be a Rambo?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I can't remember.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it possible that he said that?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Perhaps.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it possible that he said he was from a right-wing organisation and that he wanted weapons?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: He couldn't have said that, because that would be something that one would remember naturally.  Because once he had said that, one would know that they were serious.

MR PRINSLOO: But upon the moment of their entry, you thought that this could be people from your Unit, but immediately thereafter you realised that they weren't and that is when the talking ensued, is that what you said?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, when they appeared there they said sit still, don't do anything stupid.  Initially one thought that this would be people from the base who were fooling around.  They told us to remove our weapons, when we attempted to do so, they told us to leave it and they moved in.
	Upon which I realised that this was a serious situation, especially when the person moved towards me with the revolver, and I could see the rounds.  That is when I realised that this was serious.

MR PRINSLOO: So the person moving towards you, had a revolver of which you could see the rounds, that is the only firearm in which you could only see the rounds, not in a pistol?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So your attention was focused on the revolver which was approaching you with the bullets in it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is one of the things which I focused on.

MR PRINSLOO: So you were watching this at that stage?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And your deceased colleague was being approached by the other man, so you were not really looking at the other person, you were looking at the revolver?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, the revolver of the person who was approaching me.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened then?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: When he arrived next to me, he held the revolver against my head and removed my pistol, and it is then that Constable Terreblanche jumped up and began to struggle with the other person.

MR PRINSLOO: But the light went out at a stage.  You told the Honourable Committee and I can understand, things happened very quickly.  It is understandable that you can't say at what stage the light went out, whether it was before or after the gun shot.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Because the first applicant said that a shot was fired and he thought at that stage, that someone had shot the light out, and your inference is that they had pressed the switch which was next to the door, as a result of the struggle that they were involved in?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: In the statement you made to the police, were you asked at that time in April 1994, whether you had any other arms, or how did it come that you said the deceased and myself were just, had pistols only and no other arms?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That was at the recommendation of the Attorney that I made it.

ADV STEENKAMP: This was a statement that was made when the witness indicated that he had to return to work and therefore certain matters had been addressed.

CHAIRPERSON: It had been addressed, it had been included in the statement.  Mr Prinsloo, are you referring to the police statement?

MR PRINSLOO: (Microphone not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.