Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Adv Tsholanku, I agree with you.  I stand corrected.  I have just ascertained that myself.  Thank you very much and, Mr Chairman, I wish to apologise.  It remains a statement and it remains a statement, then, made to the TRC which is in front of this Committee.  Furthermore, if we could look at this statement, then.  According to this statement,
"... weeks went by, plus minus three weeks, and still he did not fetch it.
		I was concerned about it one morning.  So, round about the 10th, 11th of May I took it to work with me.  ANC Youth League (...indistinct) way.  I went to him and told him where it was and to fetch it from me.  
		On Tuesday, 25 May, in the morning he at last fetched it.".
Is these statements, are these statements correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: Still incorrect.

PROF DE KOKER: If I may take this further and take the Committee to page 14 and 15 of the evidence given in front of the TRC Human Rights Violations Committee by Mr Mbakwe, this was under oath.  I wish to draw your attention to page 12 where this oath was administered by Mr Denzil Potgieter.
"So, ...",
and that is at the bottom of page 14, over to page 15.  "So, because I wanted to get this thing away from me ...",
referring to the hand grenade,
"... and I was anxious to get it away from me, because he had left it with me about three, four weeks ago and I had been pestering him to come and take this thing of his.".
Are these statements made under oath correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: The question of being pestering about him, I cannot comment about it.  He actually felt it.  The only question that I could respond to is the question of three to four weeks.  I think somewhere there it is still incorrect.

PROF DE KOKER: So, again, a further statement, repeating the previous statement, but this time under oath with the same incorrect information, then, according to you.  Then, if we could look at the handing over of the memorandum and, again, that is repeated in both statements, but I will restrict myself to the affidavit or to the oral evidence given under oath.  According to the statement on page 14, it starts,
"On the morning of that day we prepared the memorandums.  So, while we were about to leave then came Laurens Mbatha. He came to see to enquire about an agreement he had left with me ...",
and, Mr Chairman, I propose that that was, probably, grenade which was heard and typed incorrectly.
"I then told him it is here, he can have it.  He then said to me, no, because you see I do not have anywhere to put it, I have these tight pants.  Could you do me a favour and come with it to the township and then I will take it there and go and put it away.".
According to this statement, therefore, the hand grenade was not handed to you at the office. Was this statement, given under oath, by Mr Mbakwe, correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: I am sorry to say it is incorrect.

PROF DE KOKER: So, again, another unfortunate incorrect remark according to you.  Then, on page 15, it continues and in terms of Mr Mbakwe's evidence, the hand grenade was eventually handed to you in a bag.  Was that correct or incorrect?

LAURENS MBATHA: It was in a small bag.

PROF DE KOKER: But was it handed to you in town, during the march or at the office, as you said earlier?

LAURENS MBATHA: I picked it up at the ANC Youth League office.

PROF DE KOKER: If I may quote further from his statement to the Human Rights Violations Committee under oath, page 15.
"We met the march along the way, we came there, we stopped and then we joined the march at that point and Laurens was also there by then.  So, then I went ..."
... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr de Koker, could you kindly try and read first page 15, say, round about the middle of the page ... (intervention).

PROF DE KOKER: All right.

ADV DE JAGER: ... from where you are reading.

PROF DE KOKER: Taken with pleasure, Mr de Jager.  It is in, basically three quarters of the page, on page 15.  Unfortunately, it is not marked in paragraph numbers otherwise I could have given you clearer references.
"We met the march along the way, we came there, we stopped, we joined the march at that point and Laurens was also there by then.  So, I then went up to him and said, no, obviously, you cannot give me that thing here in public, could you just carry it when we come in town.  I will take it and then I will put it away by the office or in his car.
		We then joined the march and this grenade was still in my bag and it did happen that when we reached the town, somewhere in town, he did come to me, asked me for it and took it."
End of page 15.  Is that also, then, incorrect?

LAURENS MBATHA: It is incorrect.

PROF DE KOKER: It seems then, unfortunate, from your point of view, that so many incorrect statements were made to the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC by Mr Mbakwe and that under oath.  Major Mbatha, how and when did you come to learn about the particular march on the 25th?

LAURENS MBATHA: Immediately after picking the grenade up from the ANC Youth League.  That was between eight and half past eight.  It was exactly nine, nine to half past nine that I learnt that there was a march of the league and Cosas.

PROF DE KOKER: Who told you about it?

LAURENS MBATHA: That time I was called, actually, by John.

PROF DE KOKER: What did he tell you?

LAURENS MBATHA: That there was a march of Cosas and the league and requested that the then Secretary-General of the ANC, I should convey the message to him.  They would like that he should be part of the march.

PROF DE KOKER: Who was the person you referred to?

LAURENS MBATHA: I am referring to Mr William Steenkamp.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you phone Mr Steenkamp then?

LAURENS MBATHA: He was in a meeting with his Deputy-Secretary. I went to him and told him about this information.  Initially, the, as he was a bit bitter, because it was at a short notice and he cannot accept that type of way, he should have been noticed, actually, at an earlier stage, but by explaining that this is the request and that time, the presence of the men would, actually, uplift, in a way, the march, because of his portfolio.

PROF DE KOKER: So, according to you, Mr Steenkamp did not know about this march before that day, you informed him about it?

LAURENS MBATHA: Immediately after receiving the call and his reaction, actually, reflected also that to me.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, I put it to you and we will lead evidence that Mr Steenkamp was also involved in the negotiations with the Peace Committee and the Secretariat leading up to this march, the detailed planning of this march.  This is also the type of information that can be furnished by Mr Cassandra or, possibly, corroborated by Mr Cassandra.
	When was the attack planned and who participated in the planning?

LAURENS MBATHA: I, actually, planned the attack and I instructed Walter Smiles to execute my instruction.

PROF DE KOKER: When did you plan this attack?  When did the idea arise?

LAURENS MBATHA: During the movement of the march from Tikkie Stop.  I did what is defined, actually, as a contingency planning.  That is a short plan in the process of the march.  It is when I, actually, came up with the idea of the march, the attack.

PROF DE KOKER: I put it to you Mr, Major Mbatha, that it is unfortunate that such a serious incident should be planned virtually on the spur of the moment.  Was that the way it happened?

LAURENS MBATHA: This is how I planned it.

PROF DE KOKER: When did you first decide to task Mr Smiles for this important project?

LAURENS MBATHA: Immediately after picking up with him, my, the vehicle that I was driving in.  On our way up, when we reached Klein OK, the small OK, it was at the time when we went off the vehicle, I, actually, informed him and instructed him then.

PROF DE KOKER: What precisely did you tell him?