Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

EUGENE DE KOCK: The perception was, at Vlakplaas in particular, that there would be conflict, that a full guerrilla war would break out, that we would take each other on, that there would be a war.  Apart from the changing of names of Units, in order to give it a different appearance, the entire atmosphere was of such a nature, that it was believed that we would enter into combat with each other again, and when I asked Gen Engelbrecht why we didn't disband Vlakplaas, he put it to me that if CODESA would be fail, we would be sent into the field immediately.  I will give you an example of the attack on the Chant family.  The politicians on the top level, sat in their offices, but the field workers were still involved in conflict, on a physical basis.

MR JANSEN: Thank you.    Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Jansen.  Mr Mapoma?

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry Mr Chairman, I wanted to ask a question immediately after Mr Jansen.  According to Mr Ras, the order came from Colonel De Kock, apparently from you, in connection with the incident for which he is applying for amnesty, what do you say about that, on page 26 of the Bundle, paragraph 11(b)?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Would this be along with the request that Gen Holomisa be killed?  I noted it and I refer you to page 23, the third paragraph and Mr Ras says that I, he said that he said to me that he said to Colonel De Kock that he would make the plan to kill Holomisa.  I did not ask him to kill Holomisa.  If we wanted to kill Holomisa, it wouldn't be a problem, and I can give you surety that those are his words today, but Marthinus Ras says that he came to me and said that he would do the planning for the operation, and you would see further that he did collect information and the matter was not continued, so no other action was taken against Gen Holomisa at that stage.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, you didn't issue an order or instruction to assassinate Holomisa?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, if Martiens Ras said that he wanted to gather information to murder, I cannot recall that he said that he wanted to murder him, but information, yes because there was a written report from one of the Security Branches surrounding his transport between Umtata and East London or Queenstown, but the word murder, no.  I don't have a recollection of that that we wanted to murder him.  That was not within my mandate or Vlakplaas' mandate to murder him.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.  Colonel, in your evidence in chief, you mentioned that even before the Duli coup ...

EUGENE DE KOCK: Can you repeat that please.

MR MAPOMA: In your evidence in chief you mentioned that, I am going to refer now to some incidents before the Duli coup, you mentioned that in Vlakplaas, you did supply weapons to a number of Security Branches in the country, including East London, do you recall that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: In East London in particular, when did you supply those weapons, do you remember the year perhaps?

EUGENE DE KOCK: It was to the Commander of the askari group that worked here.  The Overall Commander of that group was a Captain Willie de Lange.  I cannot recall the Warrant Officer who was directly in control of this, but the weapons and ammunition, he collected it himself at Vlakplaas.  And as far as I know, it was used for training purposes.  It could have been used for other purposes, but I cannot testify to that.

MR MAPOMA: For training askaris here in East London?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever visit that training perhaps?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Excuse me?

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever visit East London during that time for the purposes of training?

EUGENE DE KOCK: At several instances I visited East London, but the askari group, I only visited them once, but I never gave any training here and I did not attend any training sessions either.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now let's go to the first coup attempt, the supply of weapons there.  I seem to recall that you said Anton Nieuwoudt came to you to ask for those weapons with a view to using them in the coup against Transkei?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: What I want to find out from you, was it expressly known to you at that time, that Nieuwoudt wanted those weapons specifically for that purpose?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Right, thank you.  Now, you also gave evidence to the effect that at some stage in Vlakplaas, you kept the former Security Branch Police from Transkei, who fled from Transkei during Holomisa era, you kept them in Vlakplaas, there were three, that is what you said?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Can you supply with the Committee with the names of that personnel?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, I cannot.  They were appointed as sources, in the first instance as Headquarters informers, this was a safe haven for them and Gen Holomisa wanted to kill these people.  He regarded them as traitors.  Gen Holomisa regarded them as traitors, and I understand that later one was killed.  I think he was shot, he was shot by an AK47, but I do not know their names, nor that of their families.

MR MAPOMA: Were these people in fact members of the Security Branch in Transkei?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Were they not involved during the Duli coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, not that I am aware of except if somebody else had put them to use, without my knowledge, but as far as I know, they were not involved with the attack on Gen Holomisa at the second instance.

MR MAPOMA: You don't want to mention them, otherwise you know their names?  Am I made to understand that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I cannot recall their names unfortunately.  One can probably through inference of who they were, but even if I had their full names, I would not want to mention it here and it is not to be obstructive, but one has a responsibility towards sources, those who one protected then.  There were several instances where we harboured people at Vlakplaas to guarantee their safety.

MR MAPOMA: Then you went on to say that Mr Ras was having an MK cadre who reported to him on a daily basis, about the activities in Transkei during the Holomisa era, do you recall that one as well?

EUGENE DE KOCK: If you can repeat the question please.

MR MAPOMA: When you gave evidence, you said Mr Ras had an MK cadre who was reporting to him on a daily basis about the activities in the Transkei during the Holomisa period, when MK cadres were kept there.

EUGENE DE KOCK: Anton Nieuwoudt I know, he had a source who regularly gave him information, but my information came from Mr Vuli Mbotoli.  With regards to Mr Ras, no, I don't know of any permanent source who reported to him on a daily basis.

MR MAPOMA: I am sorry, I may have misread what you said.  Let's come to East London incident, when you handed over weapons to Mr Duli.  You said you gave him two AK47 and other weapons and then they were given to four agents to take them to Transkei?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That was four AK47's with 16 magazines and 16 handgrenades that we fetched and we handed it over to Colonel Duli and at later contact, the day afterwards, with Commandant Nieuwoudt, he told me that he sent those weapons of agents of his and that those weapons and handgrenades have not been found yet.

MR MAPOMA: These agents were Mr Nieuwoudt's agents?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Can you repeat?

MR MAPOMA: The four agents who were given these weapons, were they Anton Nieuwoudt's agents or Duli's agents?