Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

ADV POTGIETER: Die Veiligheidspolisie persone is ook mense wat in privaatdrag werk nie waar nie.

UNKNOWN: Ek weet nie.

ADV POTGIETER: U weet nie.

UNKNOWN: Ek weet nie, hulle kon kamoefleer aangehad het of privaat drag ek weet nie.

ADV POTGIETER: So dit kon een van daardie twee groepe gewees het.

UNKNOWN: Die enigste een van die Veiligheid wat ons mee te doen gehad het, is Majoor Liebenberg, ek weet nie wie die ander was nie.

ADV POTGIETER: En hy was in private drag gewees.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Die Onluste-eenheid mense, ek meen is hulle nie mense wat gewoonlik meer - hulle is meer - hulle is meer waarskynlik dat hulle die lede is wat in kamoefleerdrag werk nie.

UNKNOWN: Ja ek glo so.

ADV POTGIETER: Goed, baie dankie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Can I just ask Inspector Bothma you indicated that at some stage medical help was being given to people at the scene.  Now to whom was this medical help being given.

UNKNOWN: Ek weet nie daar nie daar het ambulanse opgedaag.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I see - Glenda Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Inspector Bothma could you - I may have missed it, but could you just describe to us again what the damage to your car was, your vehicle - the damage caused by the hand grenade explosion.

UNKNOWN: Dit is so 'n duik/skraap.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: A slight dent is that what you saying?

UNKNOWN: Ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: In which part of the car?

UNKNOWN: Op die deur - die linker voordeur.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: The left side of the door.

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman I am sorry to interrupt, but maybe one should just bear in mind that the damage according to the witness was not caused as a result of the explosion, the damage was caused by the hand grenade actually being deflected from the car's door.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So you describing the damage not caused by the hand grenade explosion but just by the hand grenade hitting against the car and [tussenbeide]

UNKNOWN: Dis reg ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So you would imagine that the hand grenade ricochet  off the car - it bounced off the car.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And landed somewhere.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And you describing that it landed on the pavement.

UNKNOWN: Sand pavement - sand.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: The sand pavement next to the car.

UNKNOWN: Skuins - ja dis reg.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So the car was between the pavement and the hand grenade explosion was between the pavement and the - and the car.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Any - any damage caused by the result of that hand grenade in other words the explosion itself [tussenbeide]

UNKNOWN: Toe die handgranaat [intervention]

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Sand or anything knocking against the car?

UNKNOWN: Toe die handgranaat ontplof het ons die kar reeds vorentoe gery - waar hy geval het is nie baie - of liewer hy het nie ontplof terwyl die kar gestaan het nie.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So during the explosion the car moved forward.

UNKNOWN: Dis hy.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Was moving forward and you were on the other side of the car.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Not on the side where the explosion took place.

UNKNOWN: Ek het oorgeskuif van die linker agterste sitplek na die regter agtersitplek.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Do you know the difference between the sound of the stung grenade and a hand grenade?

UNKNOWN: Ek weet nie die verskil nie.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You don't know the difference?

UNKNOWN: Nee ek het nog nooit 'n stung granaat gehoor nie.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You've never heard a stung grenade?

UNKNOWN: Nee.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Advocate Van Zyl do you have any questions to put to your witness?

ADV VAN ZYL: Thank you Mr Chairman - thank you Mr Chairman.
 Mnr Bothma u was gevra gewees na skade aan die deur van die motor en daar was aan u 'n foto getoon, Foto 22 waar met 'n punt ek dink dit is N - teen die deur of M ekskuus - M vir Mike skade aan die motor aangedui is, u het aangedui dat dit nie is waar die skade was nie.

UNKNOWN: Nee.

ADV VAN ZYL: Net bietjie harder.

UNKNOWN: Nee Edelagbare.

ADV VAN ZYL: Ek wil aan u 'n foto toon waar daar ook merke op aangedui is, kan u net daarna kyk asseblief.
 Mr Chairman I beg leave to hand in this photograph once the witness has identified it.

UNKNOWN: Ja waar hierdie foto L gemerk is, is waar die skade was.

ADV VAN ZYL: Kan u net eers na die foto kyk is dit die motor wat daar staan en die plek is hier waar die handgranaat ontplof het?

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

ADV VAN ZYL: En op hierdie foto teen die deur is 'n punt gemerk L - is dit Lima.

UNKNOWN: Heeltemal reg.

ADV VAN ZYL: Is dit waar die skade was?

UNKNOWN: Dis reg Edelagbare.

ADV VAN ZYL: En net om die ander punte op daardie foto te beskryf, die punt daar gemerk K, wat is dit?

UNKNOWN: Dis waar die handgranaat ontplof het.

ADV VAN ZYL: En die punt gemerk J, wat is dit?

UNKNOWN: Daar was die ringetjie van die handgranaat opgetel.

ADV VAN ZYL: Die veiligheidspen?

UNKNOWN: Veiligheidspen ja.

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman I beg leave to hand in this photograph.

ADV NTSEBEZA: If you [indistinct]

ADV VAN ZYL: It is marked - it is marked 33 on the photograph because it was used at - in a different forum but I do not know whether you wish to give it a particular number.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Yes I am not sure now until I have seen it and I have been referred to by [indistinct] - thank you advocate Van Zyl.

ADV VAN ZYL: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions for Mr Bothma.

ADV NTSEBEZA: As you please.  Are there any questions arising from what advocate Van Zyl has asked - Mary - no.  Any questions - no.  
 Well Inspector Bothma I think you are now excused,  and of course with the proviso that should any evidence still be needed from you, appropriate arrangements  would be made with you and your attorney to become available again.  But for the moment you are excused.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.