Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: It was from 10 o'clock in the evening until 10 or 12 o'clock the next evening yes, and then I was taken back.  What I'm trying to say is about the lack of sleep and - yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there an occasion - during that night of the 23rd of April, that you were taken out from the interrogation room and your husband was brought to you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, it was 6a.m. on the morning of the 23rd.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there an occasion when there was a discussion between Warrant Officer Beetge and another lady - a female police officer?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And that discussion, is that recorded on the video?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: To what Mr Beetge allegedly said to this lady police officer?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, it is recorded on the video, right at the end of the video and it says in Afrikaans - well, the English translation is
"We know how to break them"
or words to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Those words were alleged to be uttered by who?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, they were actually uttered in Afrikaans by Warrant Officer Beetge at a distance from the camera and the camera was focusing on the desk on which there was a handbag of mine and I had been taken to see my husband and Mr Fanie Jacobs of the Conservative Party.

MR PRINSLOO: And on this same tape recording, is there any version recorded that pertains to what your husband told you as to what he experienced in his cells in the presence of the police officer?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, on that tape as well he's talking to me in the passage and there's a long period of where the camera focuses simply on the table and one is inclined to just switch off because you think it's the end of the tape but in fact somebody comes in - a lady in a White jacket, and then we go out and then you can hear my husband and I talking and he's explaining what was happening to him in the cells.  I found Mr Beetge's words exactly, they were
"Everyone has his own method of how to break them"

MR PRINSLOO: Mrs Derby-Lewis, you also testified under cross-examination with reference to a journalist and you described in one respect that they were bribed and then upon a question of His Lordship Mr Justice Wilson  ...[End of tape 2A, day 6 - no follow-on sound]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: ...[no sound] bribery - I think Justice Wilson put it correctly, that I was referring to them as agents of influence.  If I may just read a few names that were given to me by an organisation called USELEP which is the United States/South Africa Leadership Exchange Programme, where journalists are taken overseas for a year to the Neeman Fellowship at Harvard University and then they come back and normally when they come back they have obviously been under some kind of influence, otherwise this University wouldn't be doing this sort of thing.
	And we found that many of them who did go over came back with a different frame of mind towards South Africa and in that list is Mr Tim du Plessis's name and quite a few others, I won't read them out because it would simply burden the record but some of them are very well know, for example Mr Pakendorf, Mr Tom Vosloo, Mr Alf Reece, Mr Brian Potinger.  All of these people are influential in the journalistic profession in this country and they have all been to the same place that Mr Tim du Plessis has been to.

CHAIRPERSON: You call them as agents of influence?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, yes.  I want to correct the word: "bribery" which has an unpleasant connotation of money being passed over in a back street somewhere and: "You will write this", it's a much more subtle process than that.

CHAIRPERSON: What you're saying is that you want to withdraw allegations of bribery?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You're trying to withdraw allegations of bribery?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, no, I want - when I used the word bribery, it was yesterday afternoon and I was very tired and Mr Justice Wilson I thought, put it in a better light and I simple want to confirm that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Mrs Derby-Lewis, are those not the words you used during your criminal trial - bribery?  You referred to people as having been bribed?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes, but I would like to correct that in the light of what Mr Justice Wilson said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR PRINSLOO: Mrs Derby-Lewis, subsequent to the assassination of Mr Hani, was there or was there not a lot of reports in the newspapers as to what purportedly occurred as to what the press perceived before your and your husband's arrest?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Perceived about what?

MR PRINSLOO: Was there reporting in the newspapers as to what took place with regard to Mr Hani's assassination?  Was there a press reporting about it?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: You mean after the assassination?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: You also made reference in your evidence with regard to the documents which you relied upon and in particular The Patriot and other papers and we've told the Commission that it's available - Mr Chairman, we've made copies, if the Committee requires them they are available for each Committee member but we won't burden the record unnecessarily just for that purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: If the Committee feels the need for it, we will ask you for them.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I think Mr Lubbe told me yesterday - he's not here today, that somebody requested The Patriots - the 1993 selection of them and a selection of 1997 Patriots, I'm not sure who it was who requested them but they are here and they confirm our article submitted under our Addendum B, so I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if the Committee needs them, we'll ask you for them.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And similarly Mrs Derby-Lewis, you have copies of reporting that pertains to your writings and what you said about journalists, is that correct?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, there's something particular - I won't hand everything in, but there's something in particular that I would very much like the Commission to see - it was written on October the 30th, 1992 and it's called the Revolutionary Gravy Train - it's a small article, and in that it mentions many of the names that appeared on the list and I think in terms of my evidence, I would like to produce the proof of the fact that I did write this article and that these names were in my mind in terms of what I wanted to do.

MR PRINSLOO: Then Mr Chairman, The Revolutionary Gravy Train - copies are made of it and it's available and we could hand them in as Exhibit A(e) Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: A(e) Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: A(e)?

MR PRINSLOO: Correct Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, it has two sections, the one will be A(e)1 and A(e)2, headed: The Liberation Gravy Train - the following one.  Just a moment Mr Chairman.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, may I interrupt - while Mr Prinsloo is busy, I would like to make a correction on a date that I gave you.  I said that in 1976 my husband and I went to Soweto but we hadn't met then, it was 1986.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.