Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When was that held?

MR LE ROUX: There were two meetings at the Trim Park, the first one when we were called up and then before that there was another meeting.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Could you give us approximate dates, I know it was a while back?

MR LE ROUX: Can I just consult with my legal representative please?  It was in March, January, February March, January, February, around there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: March, was that first meeting?

MR LE ROUX: No, I don't know Chairperson, I cannot remember.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Can you remember who addressed that meeting?

MR LE ROUX: At that meeting there were for example, Manie Maritz but I was not at the meeting itself, I did the security and sometimes I went in and sometimes I went out.  We had to do the security and see that everything continues.  I know the leader of the AWB was involved with it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Who else?

MR LE ROUX: Manie Maritz, that's the two people I can remember.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did he ever address a meeting which you attended?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Nico Prinsloo?

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon, Mr Etsabeth did attend certain meetings where I was present as well and he was also a speaker, so there were such things Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did Etsabeth ever give any instructions at a meeting which you attended?

MR LE ROUX: It is possible Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Can you remember what Etsabeth's instructions were?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember that, no.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chris van der Heever, a Brigadier in the AWB, did you ever have any contact with him?

MR LE ROUX: Not a lot, no.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did he ever give you any instructions to carry out in the interests of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Do you know of a highly placed, it was then the South African Defence Force officer who was present at one of these meetings?

MR LE ROUX: General Constand Viljoen was involved at certain stages.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If I can ask you this, was it Viljoen who said that the army would assist you with rattles, tanks and other equipment?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That he would make available to you 40 000 men?

MR LE ROUX: We heard that Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And that the South African Police would help you to protect this Volkstaat that you were going to start?

MR LE ROUX: There was talk about that, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did any of this come to be?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did this not make you suspicious?

MR LE ROUX: Afterwards I thought so and I also mentioned it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But Sir, you were a mere 70 to protect the Volkstaat.

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon, I did not hear you well?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were a mere 70, according to your evidence, that were going to protect the Volkstaat and you had promises of at least 40 000 men, did you know find this strange and suspicious?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage I thought that as I said, the election, it was not just during one period, it would be during the whole election period and I thought that later on that would realise.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When did you first receive instructions that the bombing was going to take place?

MR LE ROUX: The first I heard of it was the Saturday evening, the 23rd of April.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And who did you hear this from?

MR LE ROUX: Cliffie Barnard, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think when you sold your business and you moved?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not sell my business.

CHAIRPERSON: Or closed your business?  What did you think would happen?

MR LE ROUX: I was not certain what was going to happen.  At that stage people bought tinned food and I knew about the German Embassy who had bought generators in case there is a power failure etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, I thought you gave evidence that when you left the house with your wife and children you were willing to give your life.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you put your life on the line if it did not correspond with shooting?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.  From the beginning the Volksfront also announced that they would use violence and that violent things would happen and the chances that there would be violence was a hundred percent and that is how they announced it.  Not just the Volksfront, all the members of the Volksfront.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that stage did you believe that some of the occurrences or some of the things that would happen would be to create fear in people?

MR LE ROUX: That I already knew, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you surely knew then that in order to establish such a fear amongst the people a part of it would then be terrorism?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that includes bombings?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now your instructions emanated from Cliffie Barnard, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Your instructions were given by Cliffie Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: The direct orders, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now Cliffie Barnard refused to wear rank or show his rank?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You assumed that he had a rank higher than yours because he was working at the offices of the AWB, in, is it Ventersdorp?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.  No, I did not assume that.  There was a lot of talk about that amongst us, that Cliffie Barnard has got the rank of a Colonel within the Ystergarde.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, but he didn't wear it openly, he didn't show it openly, you merely presumed that he was a higher ranking officer than you.

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, he says he was told but not by Mr Barnard himself but by other people.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did you ask Barnard where his instructions emanated from?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, he told where he received it. He said it comes from General Nick Prinsloo.  In that operation he was the responsible person.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So General Nick Prinsloo was the Secretary of the Staff Generals, is that correct, at that time?

MR LE ROUX: No, he was a member of the Staff Generals.

MR LANDMAN: Was he not the secretary of the Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not know where those names come from.  I don't have them in my ...[intervention]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir, I'm merely quoting to you from page 13 of the bundle of one of your co-applicants, where they refer to General Nick Prinsloo as
"Die Sekretaris van die Generale staff"

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is possible Mr Chair.  I do not know exactly what his rank was, I only know that he was part of the Staff Generals.

ADV BOSMAN: You said something that someone was the Secretary of the AWB or the Staff Generals.

MR LE ROUX: That was when we spoke of Mr Fred Rundle, Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: But before that you talked about someone ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think regarding that and in all fairness to him, I made the statement that General Prinsloo was the Secretary General.  That comes from the other applications of the other applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] At a stage.  I do not know if he wants to change it.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I accept that but I think it was because of that Chairperson.  I saw him as a member of the Staff Generals and I didn't see any other ranks Chairperson.