Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, not at all.

ADV GCABASHE: Then a final question, I think I just missed this somewhere, I get the impression that you were not present when the pipe bomb demonstration took place, is that correct?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And is that the reason why you were therefore not tasked to operate it, I don't know, to operate the pipe bomb?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, it must be like that, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, just a few questions.  From what area did you come?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Volksrust.

ADV BOSMAN: From whom did you receive your direct call up instructions?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It came directly from Brigadier Van der Merwe.

ADV BOSMAN: I cannot remember what your brother, Mr Fourie, testified who gave him his call up instructions, but his evidence differs from yours and I wonder if you could maybe clarify that.  His evidence was that his call up instructions entailed come to Ventersdorp in order for us to protect the Volkstaat borders, establish and protect.
	Your evidence was that the call up instructions entailed come and let us fight in this war.  You were obviously - received your instructions at different places, but why these two versions, can you comment on that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That was during the meeting at Trim Park when Brigadier Van der Merwe addressed us.  Then the people who were present there, they were the Garde and it was confirmed there that the call up, the call up instructions and the date and myself, I still said why must we go up on the 15th and not the 12th of April.
	The instruction was given there already.

ADV BOSMAN: The war instruction?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, and the call up instruction for the 12th of April, but the way I can clarify it is that he was the Commandant.  There were people under him who were not present there and he conveyed the instruction to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, this pure Volkstaat that you wanted, would there be criminals in this Volkstaat or problems in this Volkstaat or did you foresee that in the future?
	Let us say that you received this Volkstaat, you now live there, it is governed by the AWB or whoever, did you think there would be problems?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, the problems as in an ordinary life style, the way we live now, yes, there would have been problems.  I believe those elements would still exist.  It is part of being human.

CHAIRPERSON: Amongst the people who live in the Volkstaat?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I believe there would have been criminal elements.

CHAIRPERSON: I get the impression that there would have been more Police than anything else, they gave you the promise that you would do the policing?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: All that I heard from Commandant Abe Fourie, that he would have the work and 20 other men, and he conveyed to me that I would be one of them in Klerksdorp.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that and all of the applicants come here and say we were told, promises were made to us that we would become Policemen.
	I wonder what other type of people there would be then, and who you were going to protect?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I saw it as we were named the Garde, would be part of that Police.  They probably chose us or elected us for that job, and that is how I saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you have seen if it would have been a Police State?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I saw that you have got your Police, your Defence Force, there would be certain sections in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: It would probably have been the VSP and not the Volkstaat, and not the SAP?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I do not know what it would have been called, but I believe the people had the knowledge to plan it.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that this whole attempt to continue with this war, and whatever you wanted to obtain from this or get from this, was assisted mainly or would have been assisted mainly by a number of the South African Defence Force?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is what they told us, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As well as a few Policemen, members of the Police?
	Let us talk about the Defence Force only.  How many soldiers did you think will assist you in this attempt?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: They mentioned something like 40 000 to 43 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not correct that this assistance that the AWB would have received from the Defence Force, was controlled by Mr Constand Viljoen?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I believed that and also by the Generals who served under him.

CHAIRPERSON: But General Constand Viljoen was the main or chief General, is that not true?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If I can use this expression in Afrikaans, he played the guitar amongst the soldiers there.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, and the Generals in the Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: And if something happened or went wrong, he would have fixed it.  He was the boss?
	The way I understand things, Mr Constand Viljoen when he decided to take part in the elections, did he do his work in that area which you saw as the Volkstaat, for example Ventersdorp and Rustenburg, is that not true?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, it is possible, I was far from there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Ventersdorp, I do not know what the date was, did you not realise in Ventersdorp that Mr Constand Viljoen is now busy to canvass votes and ask for votes, by putting up posters etc?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: As I said, we moved in there, we went to Trim Park, received our instructions there and went to the farm..

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that but I assume you must have seen, surely, a poster in the main street of Ventersdorp.  I think everybody did that, because in that election there were too few lamp posts for all the posters.  We who had normal cars, it was difficult for us to get through traffic, but did you not see Constand Viljoen's posters?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Honestly I cannot say, it could have been there or not.

CHAIRPERSON: This main attack, or the concept of this main attack or war, was controlled by Constand Viljoen?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: And the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know how many soldiers the AWB had, the Defence Force had 40 000 or more.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: We had more soldiers than the Defence Force at that stage.  They talked of at least 60 000 men who can fight.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us accept that you believed that, but a substantial amount of your power force was under Constand Viljoen's control, the ordinary Defence Force member and if he pulled out, then it would have been a blow for the AWB and war in which they wanted to fight?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, if we were aware of the fact that he withdrew.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you talk about it or discuss the fact that Constand is leaving us in the lurch, we are loosing 40 000 soldiers?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, the thing is Mr Chairperson as I said earlier on, at that date when we received our call up instructions, it was still brought under our attention that the Defence Force and the South African Police is supporting us and that the vehicles that would be borrowed to us ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That was your information?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also acted on instructions.  Could you not think for yourself that the basic reason why you agreed in this war, was that 100 000 men and now 40 000 is gone.  Didn't you even talk about it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, no one said that we lost those troops.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that Constand Viljoen is in control of that, did you not question the fact that or asked if the soldiers are still with us and not just that Constand Viljoen left, did he take his soldiers with?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I never questioned that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I think I believed too much.

CHAIRPERSON: But you couldn't have believed this because you did not know if he would bring his soldiers with.