Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, there were people on the - apparently today there is almost like a basket ball court next to the ELC, I think you  must have seen it, there were people standing on that field there, I mixed in with the people, and I also went around, because the entire building on both sides, had people.

MR MARTINI: The back as well?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At the back, there were people standing as well.

MR MARTINI: Did the Fire Brigade arrive, the Police arrive?  I am not saying they did as a fact, I am asking you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There were, as Mr Hardien stated, "daar was baie ligte", meaning that there were police vehicles and I would assume fire brigade vehicles as well.

MR MARTINI: That is when you walked back?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, because within, I think within minutes, not even, literally speaking I just went across and it takes me less than a minute to run across again.

MR MARTINI: Coming back?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: So within minutes of the bomb, I came back, but there were police, within minutes there were police at the scene.

MR MARTINI: Within minutes of the bomb exploding or with you leaving?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, within minutes of the bomb exploding.

MR MARTINI: Were they at the front, at the back?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think they were at the back entrance more, but there must have been police cars in front, but I have also testified earlier that there was a casspir sort of vehicle on the corners of Thornton and Klipfontein Road, on that field next to the Civic Centre, which was parked there all night.

MR MARTINI: Did the police go and park in the parking area at the back?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not in the area no, they didn't.  They were outside, as you would remind yourself, there is a fence around the parking area with a big gate.  That gate was always there.

MR MARTINI: Was the gate locked?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, I do not, I don't think so because police had to get access into the building, it wasn't locked.

MR MARTINI: Well, that is why I asked you did the police park in the parking area?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They didn't park in the parking lot, they parked outside where we parked.

MR MARTINI: How many police cars were there?  Sorry, when you say "outside where we parked", outside in the front or in the parking area?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, no, where we parked when we went for the inspection in loco.

MR MARTINI: In the parking area?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, all of us didn't park in the parking area, people were parking outside the parking area.

MR MARTINI: Okay.  So there is that extra piece there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There is a big piece there.

MR MARTINI: Were there a lot of cars parked around there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not a lot of cars, but it was basically police vehicles.

MR MARTINI: How many would you say were there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I cannot give you a definite answer in terms of that.

MR MARTINI: If you can't, you can't.  I am just asking.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There were a number of vehicles parked.

MR MARTINI: And there was a lot of activity, I take it, people mingling around?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was mingling with this people as well.  I could fit in, I was from the area.  I could walk amongst whoever.

MR MARTINI: Yes, but there were a lot of people?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: In the parking lot, were there a lot of people when you arrived back after you had left your car?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not in the parking lot, because people were moved away from the building by the police.

MR MARTINI: So there was no access into the parking lot?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not really.

MR MARTINI: What was your state of mind at the time, were you shocked, concerned, traumatised?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was shocked, concerned, but I was right, all my faculties on top.

MR MARTINI: But you were discussing, talking to people, I assume, what went on here?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Mixing and mingling with the people, that is correct.

MR MARTINI: What made you stop to see if there were cars in the parking lot?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because we knew that one of the members, Nazeema Mohammed's car was still there, in the parking lot.

MR MARTINI: How did you know that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She was with me in the meeting, and I went to go and park my bakkie there and there were pamphlets in that car.

MR MARTINI: Now you see you also said that there were cars that belonged to the ELC, correct me if I am mistaken?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Were used by the ELC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: You see Mr Williams put versions to Mr van Zyl and at no stage did he ever put that there were cars that were used by the ELC, stationary in that parking lot?  Can you explain why?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He might have omitted to see that, but in my opinion, I knew from (indistinct), and I went to go and check.  I cannot speak for Mr Williams, but from my experience and memory, there were cars in the parking lot.

MR MARTINI: Will you say it was an oversight on Mr Williams' part?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would assume that.

CHAIRPERSON: These ELC vehicles, what were they, kombi type vehicles to transport kids?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, sedan vehicles.

CHAIRPERSON: Or were they sedans, what sort of vehicles?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was sedan type of vehicles, sir.

MR MARTINI: One last question, Mr Alexander ...

MR LAX: Your microphone, Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Oh, sorry.

MR LAX: You've got no junior to help you?

MR MARTINI: It keeps going off.  One final question, Mr Alexander, were you in court when Mr van Zyl testified?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In court or ...

MR MARTINI: In the hearing, sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I was here.

MR MARTINI: Did you hear him apologise to the victims?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, and no.  I heard him apologise, but did he mean it?  He was still not being truthful about what happened, so ...

MR MARTINI: That is your opinion, but I am just asking a simple question, did you hear him apologise?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I did.

MR MARTINI: Now, do you accept his apology?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I don't.  He was not truthful.  I came here with the sole reason to get the truth, and if that was, had been spoken, I would have given my hand in friendship and or, which I did to Mr Ferdi Barnard.

MR MARTINI: Yes, we will get to that, but you don't accept his apology?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.  He wasn't truthful.

MR MARTINI: You are not prepared to reconcile with Mr van Zyl?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If he is prepared to come and testify and speak the truth, at any other point ...

MR MARTINI: Answer my question, after these hearings?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I am not.

MR MARTINI: I am going to finish off with you now, you are not prepared to reconcile with Mr van Zyl?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I am not.

MR MARTINI: And I take it you have been discussing it with other members and victims that all sat here, that that is also their opinion or not?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, I cannot speak and decide for them, but from my experience, I know that he was not being truthful.

MR MARTINI: I ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was in the building, I cannot speak for them.

MR MARTINI: I am not asking you whether he is being truthful or not, that the Commission will make a decision on.  I am asking you when you say you are not prepared to reconcile with him, can I, I am not being unfair to you, having, I saw you mingle with the other victims.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I mingle with them.

MR MARTINI: You had discussions, do they hold the same view?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I am of the opinion that they hold the same view.

MR MARTINI: That they don't want to reconcile either with Mr van Zyl?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Martini.  Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions that you would like to put?