Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Do you know that it is mentioned in that report and or newspaper article that the IFP were probably in cahoots with the police and other forces?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't know what I must say but in the ANC structures it's almost common knowledge.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Can I just get that straight - it was common knowledge - can you just explain, what was common knowledge?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That the IFP were working together with third force elements.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: And that indeed, Mr Kruser, also ties in with your evidence where you testified that you did not want to disclose that list of weapons or the register to the police and or Attorney General because isn't it because you didn't trust the police?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't think we'll make any bones about it, if you look at the investigation you'll see very many good reasons why we shouldn't have had trust them and why I still don't trust them.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Mr Kruser, can you then explain why did you in your evidence yesterday, said that you trusted the statutory forces of the country to give you protection at that point in time?

CHAIRPERSON: There's more a hope than a trust isn't it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Let me just explain that, Mr Chairman.  I was in charge of security of all our leaders in our buildings in the country.  One of the documents I wrote to the National Directorate around securing our leaders and other things was we faced a serious concern from right wing and third force elements in the process of doing that and I made a motivation which was rejected by the vast majority of regions in which I was in charge of all the regions which was eventually approved by our director, Mr Joey Ntlhantlha and the essence of my suggestion was that we involve police or state structures in all our security operations.  The reason why I motivated that was I thought that elements of security forces would not attack their own members and that was the basis why I made a motivation to my leadership and throughout the process they set up liaison structures and we thought, although we knew the liaison structures were all security branch structures, we had to use those structures to the best of our ability as an organisation which didn't have the resources of which the state has and I think it worked very effectively for us.  Whenever I needed a sweep - we never had dogs to sweep our bombs, I could phone Captain Wilkins and he would come and bring his dogs in there.  If a bomb went off he would have taken that responsibility, I didn't think he would subject himself to those sort of things.  If President Mandela went to any area we had two security branch policemen in the cars in the convoy, we didn't think they would attack their own members, so it was a strategy which worked very well for us and that is why in all the other events when we call them to assist us - they guarded our building at night previously when we thought there were attacks when we received information.  They had regular patrols there at Shell House, they came to sign our O.B. book on a regular basis every hourly patrols - those things were taking place - we didn't trust them completely - we used what we could from the state structures because we also knew they understood where this country was heading and who would be the future government of the day.
So it was trust but we qualified the type of trust which we gave to them.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Are you aware of a large number of IFP cadres that arrived at Shell House from the Friday evening onwards - I beg your pardon - ANC?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not aware of that.  I was not aware of that.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Did nobody inform you that there was a large number who were even present early the morning of the 28th?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They belonged to MK - they didn't have to inform me about anything - I belonged to the department of Intelligence Security - we were separate departments who dealt with things separately.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Are you saying that you would not have been able to utilise them in protecting Shell House on that day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Our department operates on the basis that we only use members of our department, people who are screened and vetted by our department, like any other security department in the world at work.  We don't just take members because they belong to army, you have to work with people who are vetted and people who you can trust.
	Secondly, I was not aware of those people there so I couldn't even use them, I didn't know they were there and thirdly, no one came to tell me there was extra people there.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: You say that approximately at week before the 28th March you were aware through media reports that a march was going to take place.  Did you at that stage try to get extra security forces in place?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I didn't think it was necessary.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: When was the first time that you received information about an attack on Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I testified earlier, it was the Sunday evening.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Did you enquire more particulars about the nature of the attack, what form it will take on?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The first thing, the information was conveyed to me by telephone so we would not discuss details over that.  Secondly, we work on a need to know basis.  My commander gives me information, I don't ask questions I use the information as best as possible to secure the organisation.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Wasn't your duty partly to attend to the security at the building and therefore wasn't it necessary for you to know to enable you to plan properly to put the security in place.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Exactly - I was informed there was a possible attack against Shell House and I think I put a very excellent plan in place to secure Shell House.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: That is a matter for argument but nevertheless - you didn't enquire whether the attack would take on the form of bombing, of people armed - wasn't that relevant to you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think, I'm not sure here or in the inquest, I think we discussed all possibilities that might exist.  We discussed the issue of drive by shootings, we discussed the issue of the march being used as a decoy for the - we discussed of individuals going into the buildings with arms or armaments.  Therefore we set processes in place to ensure that we take care of orders.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Did you receive any information or become aware of any information or rumours that the police or high ranking police officers would be involved in the so called attack?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I did not at that stage.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: On the Monday morning arriving at Shell House what was the first thing you did, where did you go to?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I testified I received a phone call and went to Lancet Hall.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Did you enter the building?

CHAIRPERSON: He's already given evidence on all that, do we have to traverse that ground?

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Mr Chairman, I indeed want to find out what was the first thing he did as somebody in charge of security it's important to know security wise.
	So you in fact did not enquire as to what whether the police were indeed around the building to secure the place?