Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, it would appear to me that this aspect of my submission would be conjecture but I think it is increasingly known in today's circles, political circles particularly and given the volatile political life that we live in South Africa, that the applicant is talking amidst a whole series of persons from open public and if he were granted amnesty, he would have to now join the ...(inaudible) of the open public and if you are totally honest perhaps in saying things as Mrs Kuzwayo wants the Committee to believe, that he clearly directly shot Zazi Kuzwayo and Mrs Mkhize wants this Commission to believe that he directly killed Mr Mkhize, then I think he would suffer a degree of negativism from the public, put at best as negativism.
	He may be rejected in society and I think he's drawn the conclusion between being absolutely truthful and being acceptably truthful in order that if the application were successful, he can be released in open society and not suffer the scorpion bite of society.  
	Under those circumstances, what I was endeavouring to achieve was to endorse the sentiments expressed by the learned Judge, included in the Judgement, not failing to understand that he has been convicted but simply saying that, having regard to his application today, I would endorse those sentiments as being applicable even today.  And the learned Judge as mentioned on 92 says:
"We reject his evidence as being false"
I submit that, that finding can well be made, even today, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there members of the Reparation's Committee here, present?

MR BRINK: I understand Mr Chairman, the briefers who were with them are no longer here.  There's liaison people.

CHAIRPERSON: If the applicant wishes to speak to your clients and show his contrition to them, are they willing to do so, are they willing to meet and talk to him because if they are, then I will adjourn here, the Committee will adjourn to enable the applicant and whoever wishes to be with him, to meet and speak to the victims and the dependants of the victims, rather to the
relatives of the victims.

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairperson, unfortunately I have no instructions thereon, I personally have no difficulty with that.  Could I perhaps take instructions?   Thank you.
	Mr Chairperson thank you for the indulgence, my instructions are that Mrs Mkhize and Mrs Kuzwayo are not agreeable to talk to the applicant.  Mrs Mkhize is still crying, has not answered me except for a nod of the head indicating her disagreement with the idea.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to address a few words to the applicant.
	The fact that in this gathering which is electrically charged at present, where strong views have been expressed by both sides, there seems to be some reluctance on the part of people who have been affected by the offences with which you are associated but I think that the initiative to attempt a reconciliation, that initiative will have to come from you.  
	The fact that at present it is not possible to do so does not mean that you cannot, through your attorneys and legal representatives, attempt to arrange a meeting, a personal meeting in the absence of members of the public, to arrange a meeting with the people with whom you would like to talk and from whom you would like to ask forgiveness, do you understand?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that if your client makes such a request, you're instructing attorneys or others who are interested in his welfare will take the necessary steps to bring about a meeting and those who have been affected by his actions.

MR SHANGWENI: That's correct Mr Chairperson, that's what we'll do.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, that brings us to the end of this application and the Commission will now stand adjourned until the next hearing.  When will that be Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: That will be on Thursday.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) efforts to see whether it is impossible to arrange for it to be heard earlier.

MR BRINK: I appreciate your concern but I've already discussed the matter with the attorney appearing, he's just not available tomorrow or Wednesday.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this Committee now adjourns and we'll resume on Thursday.

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman sorry, am I to be regarded as being excused?

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused, the hearing is now adjourned.

MR DIAZ: I'm indebted.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS