Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

MR MALAN: Ms Mtanga I want to just get your opinion on the document that related to you one question that you put.  On page 5 of the bundle, the first question is
"You state in your application that the unknown person was an IFP member."
That's the first question.  
"If a person was unknown to you, how was he identified?"
Now you look at the answer on page 7.
"I heard that from other people.  I do stay with them."
Okay, then the second question:
"What led you to believe that the deceased was sent to kill Mr Lucky Ntshetha?"
And the answer is what you based your question on,
"We were told by Lucky that the deceased wanted to kill him."
So he asked for help.  
"Then we went to that man to ask him what is going, then he told us for himself that time that he is an IFP supporter."
Then later, this is still the same incident, the same paragraph to the same question, it seems through the interrogation we get that the deceased was not aiming to kill Lucky.  Isn't that indeed what they did satisfy themselves about during the interrogation and therefore the probability that they simply decided to release him and that the motive for calling him back was fear that something may be resulting from their having attacked and assaulted an innocent person?  Isn't this what the applicant says here?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, my understanding of that answer was that at the time they had killed this person, they had accepted that he was an IFP person, there to kill Lucky Ntshetha and then later on a rumour came about that this person never intended to kill him, that was my ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, you talked about a rumour, but if you look at the answer, the answer relates to one specific question, "What led you to believe that the deceased was sent to kill Mr Lucky Ntshetha?"  And then he tells you, "Lucky told us so, but later we found out it wasn't so."  That's the gist of the story and it all relates to the same question, the same incident.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, that later to me, I didn't it to be saying on the very same day...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Well you didn't understand it to be on another day either.  I mean it's simply, we have to make a deduction from what's here.  This was never put to the applicant himself.

CHAIRPERSON: You did put it Ms Mtanga?

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson, Adv Chris de Jager did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think somebody - this was explored with the witness.

UNKNOWN: With the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: With the applicant and then I thought you had done that because I've got a note thereof.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: This was explored with the applicant who then explained that whilst they were in jail, after they had been apprehended, it later was established by someone, if the applicant went on to give the name of the person who said he thinks, even then it was not a fact, he thinks it's possible that Lucky Ntshetha might have had some personal hatred with this person and that's why he called them to assist him to kill him.  I think this point, I just wanted to correct my learned friend, so this was explored and that you are in no position to give us any further elucidation other than the evidence that's before us and I'm satisfied that we do have sufficient evidence before us to clear this particular point.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: That ends my,...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose that that concludes your submissions?

UNKNOWN: That concludes my submissions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any reply Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: No Madam Chair.
NO REPLY BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  This matter is concluded, evidence has been concluded.  We reserve our decision in respect thereof.  We'll pronounce our decision in due course.  We thank the legal representatives, including our Evidence Leader, for according us the assistance they were able to afford us.  Thank you.  We'll adjourn for lunch.  The time is 20 to 2.  We'll adjourn for lunch and we'll resume at 10 past 2.  At 10 past 2 we will commence with the application of Mr Khuzwayo, but before we can do so, may we request the legal representatives appearing from Mr Khuzwayo and/or Nkwanyana, to see us in chambers immediately?

MR PANDAY: Sorry Madam Chair, I take it I am now excused?  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION