Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR BRINK: Are you able to tell the Committee when, if a all you observed that Mr Mthimkhulu's health was declining or he was becoming ill for example, losing his hair?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, it was shortly after his release when if I remember correctly - or it could have been during that period, I know there were things in the press to the effect that he had lost some of his hair before he had been at Groote Schuur or - I can't remember exactly, it's some time around that period.

MR BRINK: Did you observe that he was losing his hair while he was in detention?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Did he appear to you to be suffering from severe stomach pain while he was in detention?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, he never complained towards me if I remember correctly, of any stomach complaint or stomach ache Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Did you observe that it might have been difficult for him to stand or walk without considerable pain while he was in detention?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can only remember that his legs were swollen Mr Chairperson, because of his detention and standing for so long during the interrogation - at Sanlam building, there I observed this Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: How long was that before his release in October?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, if you can just allow me a moment I would like to refresh my memory regarding the dates in my statement.  Mr Chairperson, it was during September, more or less the 11th that I observed this and he was only released on the 20th of October.

MR BRINK: So that was approximately five weeks before his release?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Were his legs very swollen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not that seriously but one could see that they were swollen.

MR BRINK: Was he lying down in his cell?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't - it was at security headquarters and I think it was Colonel Roelofse who soaked his feet in water, I think he gave him hot water and cold water to reduce the swelling Mr Chairperson.  I remember something like that Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: And was that also because he was not able to walk with facility?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that was my observation, I think it was of a consequence of his standing for so long.

MR BRINK: Did  you discuss this with your colleagues?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I didn't Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Did you suggest that a doctor be called in to see him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Were you not concerned about his condition?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Why, were all other detainees in the same situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't understand the question clearly, which other detainees?

MR BRINK: Well is the reason - well, any detainees in your experience, did they all suffer from these ailments, swollen legs, sore feet, being unable to walk and that sort of thing?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: And you weren't at all suspicious as to what might have given rise to this condition - Mr Mthimkhulu's condition?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, because I thought that it had been so because of his standing for so long.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt, as far as this case is concerned, were you the most junior member?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: And as far as the interrogation is concerned and how long it continued before these persons were murdered, was it your decision of the decision of your seniors?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was the seniors who decided.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: You've finished now have you?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I would like to clear up a number of different points with you Mr Nieuwoudt.   The first is, do you know if either Captain Roelofse or Mr du Plessis also gave him tablets for his swollen feet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot recall that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, now going back to the sleeping tablets - your sleeping tablets, if they were prescribed by the district surgeon would you have to go out and buy them or were the supplied to you?  If they were prescribed by the district surgeon as you said, would you get them from the district surgeon's office or would you have to buy them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, he would give me a script and then I would go to a pharmacy where I would receive this, I didn't have to buy this from my own pocket.

CHAIRPERSON: It would go on your medical aid?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is true Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember which pharmacy you went to?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Quiet please.

ADV SANDI: Which pharmacy would you normally go to?  You do not remember this particular one ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment, before you ask the next question - I can't remember because there was such a noise because you wanted to add something that wasn't interpreted or did you add something?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I wanted to add something Mr de Jager.  I think the pharmacy was Hollumberg's Pharmacy in Main Street Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Did you use different pharmacies or was this the only one?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That pharmacy was very close to the district surgeon's office and I used it quite frequently Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, the next point I'd like to deal with is the Post Chalmers police station.  You arranged that you were going to abduct these people and take them there and eliminate them, is that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's what you did?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who got the key of the police station?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I just wish to explain.  The custom was - because we also used that police station to de-brief sources but normally somebody would contact the branch commander and the keys would then be left by him in a certain place or we would collect the keys from his house, depending on the circumstances but on that specific day I can't remember what happened exactly - whether he had left the key close to the wind pump, I can't remember exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was he told that you were going to be occupying that place for a couple of days?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it must have been like that, I don't whether Mr du Plessis or Mr van Rensburg had contacted the branch commander there -  I assume that must have been arranged.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it would have defeated the whole object of your exercise if anybody had walked up to the house the next day, wouldn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely there would have been some arrangements made for the security of the house, the police - this building?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: What arrangements were made?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know what security arrangements had been made but I can't think of exactly what you're referring to, is this when we did the elimination?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, when you were there all day with these two men who didn't want to be seen in your presence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson, and that is why I think Mr du Plessis was there to see to it that nobody would gain access - that no person would gain access to the area.