Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I know where we are going to but ask the question.

MR WEBSTER: You'll get the questions.  You'll get the questions.  You have amnesty in respect of many killings, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: How many?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think 14 Sir, I'm not sure.

MR WEBSTER: 14?  And in all those 14 instances people whom you murdered were suspects, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were terrorists, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: They were suspects, were they not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Terrorists, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, were they not suspect people, suspected of having broken the law?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were terrorists, Sir, perhaps they did break the law.

MR WEBSTER: Were terrorists not people who had contravened the law?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, they were.

MR WEBSTER: So why don't you want to admit that they were suspects?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Perhaps they were suspects.

MR WEBSTER: Why do you say perhaps?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not sure ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Are you now suggesting that as long as a person had been identified as a terrorist, you felt justified in killing him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Certainly not, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: So were those people in respect of whom you have applied, suspects?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were suspects, I suppose, yes.

MR WEBSTER: They were and in those instances, you did not attempt to apprehend them, you shot and killed them.  Some you put limpet mines into their mouths and blew them, is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's not so, Sir, I'm not an explosives expert.

MR WEBSTER: Okay, let's leave the limpet mine business, but you shot and killed them?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You made no attempt to apprehend them?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I apprehended many of these on other occasions.

MR WEBSTER: I'm talking of the people that you shot and killed.  You did not intend apprehending - in fact some of them had been apprehended but were then taken out and shot, is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is so.

MR WEBSTER: Execution style, is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It is so.

MR WEBSTER: To cut a very long story short, I don't believe, I don't believe you one iota when you say that on that Sunday and with these four terrorists, as you call them, that you had any intention whatsoever to apprehend them.  Your answer is going to be no, is it not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I'm going to answer now.

MR WEBSTER: And say?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, those four men were meant to be armed with their AKs.  That was the information.  I have had combat experience, rather a lot, I would never, ever go into a gun fight with four armed men with my service 9 mm pistol with 15 rounds.  I would not fancy my chances of coming out of that fight good enough.  So my briefing was very definite, they were to  be - an arrest attempt was to be made on these four people.  In fact I didn't even take my R1 service rifle out of Col Taylor's vehicle.  that is what happened on that day.

MR WEBSTER: Do you appreciate the significance of what you've just said Mr Wasserman?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I've said it and I stand by what I've said, Sir

MR WEBSTER: You want me to believe, you want the Commission to believe that people armed that you were going to apprehend, people armed with AK47s, terrorists who were armed with AK47s just carrying your service pistol?  That's what you want the Commission to believe?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the Reaction Unit was going to effect the arrest.  They were heavily armed.  I was not going to.  I had my service pistol on me, that was it.

MR WEBSTER: Please, Mr Wasserman, you've said you were going to arrest those people.  Have you not said so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: the operation was to arrest those people.  I was not to be involved in the arrest operation, the Reaction Unit was to do that.

MR WEBSTER: So your intention was not to arrest, that was the responsibility of the Reaction Unit, is that it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was their responsibility, yes.

MR WEBSTER: And not your business?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not my business.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said that the operation was to arrest these people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now is that different from your business and their business?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No not at all, Sir, but on the presumption that they were armed and the Reaction Unit was also heavily armed, they wee going to be the principle parties in the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Let's get back to the station,police station, kwaMashu police station.  you said that before the information was relayed that the vehicle had left wherever it was, that there were a lot of policemen at the police station, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Had there been a meeting held up until that stage involving all the policemen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there must have been a meeting.  When I got there I was just informed what had happened.  Col Taylor came and informed me what the situation was that was happening there.  There wasn't a meeting that I was involved with.

MR WEBSTER: If I recall what's in your application, you said you arrived there and after your arrival more police officers arrived, is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's very possible Sir, there were many policemen there and possibly others did arrive.

MR WEBSTER: Are you suggesting that that allegation I make is not in your application?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: May you point out where it is, Sir?

MR WEBSTER: I'm asking you.  Just a yes or a no and then we get on.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Upon my arrival there a large number of policemen had congregated.

MR WEBSTER: Is that where you stop?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And then I did say that I was informed that a ... of MK operatives ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Okay, in so far as you wee concerned, no meeting was held after you arrived there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was not subject or party to any meeting Sir.

MR WEBSTER: That's a round about way of saying yes, we'll carry on.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And from the time that you arrived to the time that the message was received that the vehicle was then moving away, in other words, the Cressida was moving away, how long was that period approximately?

CHAIRPERSON: How long after he arrived?

MR WEBSTER: Yes after he arrived, thank you Mr Chairman.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'd say possibly 2 and a half, 3 hours.

MR WEBSTER: Okay, so in the 2 and a half to 3 hours, there is no co-ordination of discussion.  Is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you.  You were not privy to any plan by the Reaction Unit to apprehend these people, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was informed by Col Taylor that the Reaction Unit would operate in this operation, he informed me of that, but I was not privy to the plan of what it would be and everything like that, I was a Sergeant at this time, so I was not to be privy to that.

MR WEBSTER: You had absolutely no clue what they were going to do?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Oh yes, I was told that they would try and effect the arrest away from the house along the road.  I was informed of that.

MR WEBSTER: What I'm saying is the clue about the plan, you had no clue about the plan, their plan?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, not the Reaction Unit plan, no Sir.