Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: And they issued you with the one gun which we've heard was a pumpgun shotgun.  Did they issue your friend William with a gun?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You were each  issued with a gun that evening.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I received a gun.

JUDGE WILSON: And so did William, is that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I do not know, because I just saw him having a gun.  I got the gun on the same night but I don't know about Faltein, but I just saw him in possession of a gun.

JUDGE WILSON: And how long did you stay there?  Did you stay the whole night there or did you leave during the course of the night?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: The same night we went back.

JUDGE WILSON: Went back home.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: So you got home that night.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not at home.

JUDGE WILSON: What did you do?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We went to the squatter camp to other comrades.

JUDGE WILSON: You weren't anxious to get home, you went to the squatter camp and you spent the next day there, did you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I have already seen my parents and there were other friends of mine whom I did not see before, and I decided to go straight to the hiding place together with the 4	other/..
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other comrades.

JUDGE WILSON: But wasn't that where you were living, in the squatter camp?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, that was just my hiding place.

JUDGE WILSON: Well where were you living?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was staying in the same street with my co-accused, No 652.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you staying with him and you decided to go home again the next afternoon, did you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: I am asking you this because in your amnesty application form you referred to how you were feeling nostalgic and wanted to see your parents.  But you had seen them the night before, hadn't you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, I had seen them, that is my father and my mother.

JUDGE WILSON: And you arrived at 658, the deceased's home, that afternoon, is that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And on your version, as I understand it, nobody, neither he nor any of his friends fired a shot, but you killed him, is that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: But you say you were doing it in self-defence.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was defending myself.

CHAIRPERSON: That's despite the fact that the deceased was accompanied by three policemen, each of whom was armed.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And none of them fired at you.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not even one.
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: Mr Ncube, in your evidence you stated that you
were given the pump gun by the ANC prior to December 1990, at least on the 24th December.  I am not sure whether I understood your evidence in that regard, when were you given the gun by the ANC?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: The pump gun was at all times present.  That is the first rifle I was given.

UNKNOWN: Was it always in your possession, or at times you had to return it to the Executive?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We used to take it back to the Executive to be stored.

UNKNOWN: Now how many people were given firearms by the Executive for purposes of protecting the community?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: When I received this I was just concerned about myself.  I only saw other comrades in possession of guns not knowing when were they given guns.

UNKNOWN: But were those guns given to members of the SDU by the Executive branch of the ANC, to your knowledge?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, according to my knowledge, that is the correct version.

UNKNOWN: You knew the deceased for quite some time, you actually grew up together.  When did he become a gangster?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: He started in the same year, 1990.

UNKNOWN: Prior thereto he was not involved in any criminal activity?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, prior to that he wasn't just a criminal.  He was just playing gambling games.

UNKNOWN: When did your area experience a period of instability, that is Khutsong?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: At the Xhosa section the conflict started in 1990.  It was in 1990.
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: And what was the cause of the instability?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: This conflict between ourselves and these men was because of a few reasons that I've mentioned earlier on, that the ANC wanted free political activities.  We wanted to have meetings, we wanted to conduct our funerals in our way, but things never turned out to be that way.

UNKNOWN: I am just trying to reconcile your evidence.  You've stated that you had to leave your area in 1988 to seek refuge in Orlando West because your life was in danger.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Your life was in danger in 1988 not because of the activities of the vigilante group.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That is correct.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DLAVANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Mpshe, can we begin at 09.30 tomorrow morning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is possible at 09.30.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we adjourn, Mr Mpshe, are there are dependants of the deceased or relatives of the deceased who might be interested?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there are documents that I want to bring to the attention of the Committee members pertaining to the question that Mr Chairman has just asked.  There are no dependants available.  That is a report from the investigative unit to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  This Committee is now going to adjourn until 09.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
4	MS MPSHE:/...
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Chairman and members of the committee, you will recall that the name of Mr Ndzeku was made mention of the two applicants yesterday.   His attendance to this committee today will be to clarify facts like what was happening at the time in Kusong.  He was mentioned to have been the member of the executive committee of the ANC at the time.  At present he is the mayor of Carltonville in Kusong, Kusong is the township near Carltonville.
DAN NDZEKU (ss)

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Ndzeku I have already explained to this Committee the purpose of your attendance today.   The two applicants who appeared before this Committee yesterday, namely Mr Foltuin William and John (indistinct).   Do you know these two persons?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: : The two have explained to the Committee that at that time during the period of 1990 they were serving as members of the ANC Youth Congress, served in its self-defence unit.   You Mr Ndzeku was one of the executive members of the ANC at the time.   Can you confirm that?

ANSWER: Yes it is so.

<UNKNOWN>: : They were members of, what you are complaining is they were the members of the African National Congress, Youth Congress and further you are complaining that it is true that you was a member of the executive committee of the ANC at that time, is that so?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : In the evidence before this Committee they have explained that being members of the structure of the ANC as mentioned, they were in battle or at war with a group of vigilantes.   Do you know of this group of vigilantes?
1.

ANSWER: /...
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ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: They are serving sentences for having killed a certain Mr Majeko who they alleged to have been the leader of this vigilante group.   Did you know this David Majeko, you as Mr Ndzeku?

ANSWER: Yes I did.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it true that this Mr David Majeko was the leader of this vigilante group in Kusong?

ANSWER: I won't say a leader as such but he was one of the prominent members of the vigilante group.

<UNKNOWN>: : They mentioned that this vigilante group was on the campaign of stabilisation in Kusong, names were mentioned before the Committee that was said were killed by this vigilante group, rob and rape, can you confirm what this vigilante group was doing in Kusong.

ANSWER: Yes it is.