Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: Does that complete the list Mr Ngo?  Can we go over to the right-hand side?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Let's look at the right hand side.  Let's take the first name, Constable Khatlake, was he part of the Bloemfontein security branch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was in Botshabelo, we used to meet when we were there to assault people in the security unit of Botshabelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Mr Ngo I just want you to tell us where - in what unit he was, don't go into detail about what you did with him.  So, Khatlake was in Botshabelo, and Smith?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Also Mr Smith or Sergeant Smith.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Thula?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was at Botshabelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was Smith in Bloemfontein?  Botshabelo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, in Botshabelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right. And Senyane?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was in Botshabelo - Senyane.

MR DU PLESSIS: Lesale?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, there might be a misunderstanding.  I heard the witness to be saying Lesale instead of Senyane when he was asked the question about Senyane.

MR DU PLESSIS: He has already answered Senyane, Mr Chairman.  Was Senyane in Botshabelo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, Samuel Senyane was in Botshabelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Lesale?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Bester?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was stationed here in Bloemfontein but we were working together in Brandfort.

MR DU PLESSIS: And the next one - I don't know if that's a spelling mistake - Constable Tax.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was stationed here in Bloemfontein but we were working together in Brandfort.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  And then Sergeant Mokalake?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Sergeant Mokalake, he was a member of "Bewaarder".

MR DU PLESSIS: So he was not part of the security branch?  And then Warrant Officer Bester?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Bester was a member of security branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: In Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was working in Botshabelo but he was supposed to report here in Bloemfontein but we used to go together in Brandfort.  At times he used to go to Bloemspruit to make some investigations.

ADV DE JAGER: There seems to be a duplication there about Bester.

MR DU PLESSIS: Oh yes, I see - thank you very much.  All right, and then Liebenberg is the last one I want to ask you about?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a soldier.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right.  Now Mr Ngo, you see what I find strange of this is exactly what his Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson pointed out just now, is that when you were simply an informer of the security branch in Bloemfontein,  you knew these many people who were part of the security branch in Bloemfontein but when you were part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi in Pretoria, you got to know in a period of more than two years, you only got to know the three last names mentioned in the second column, namely Bokaba, Selahla and Loots.
	Can you explain to us how does it come - how does it happen that when you were an informer in Bloemfontein, you know such a lot of security branch people but when you were really part of the security branch and working for them in Mamelodi, you only got to know three - explain that to us.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The question is when did I say - in 1983 when I was an informer, I already knew those people, we have said so.

MR DU PLESSIS: Are you saying that you met these security branch people before you became an informer or what are you saying?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I didn't know them before I was an informer, I used to know Lieutenant Erasmus, Coetzee and Shaw when I was an informer and the rest of these names, I didn't know them because I didn't even meet them before.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, you see Mr Ngo, your evidence was that he was - that you were in Bloemfontein for a short time acting as an informer and I just find it strange and I'm putting that to you ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: He said since 1983.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] before he went to college.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, let me just get that right.  For how long were you an informer in Bloemfontein, for two years?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I started in 1983.

MR DU PLESSIS: So, it's approximately three years roughly.   Right, in a period of three years as an informer Mr Ngo, you met all these security branch people in Bloemfontein and I haven't counted it but it probably close to approximately twenty or more, twenty or thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he has said he "met", Mr du Plessis has he?  He said he knew these people as security branch officers there.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which could well mean he saw them in the office, somebody said who they were.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes thank you, you're right Mr Chairman, thank you very much.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I do not appear for Mr Ngo but in fairness to the witness, I think what Mr du Plessis does not know, is that this witness was also a student constable in Bloemfontein from March and till the 19th of June when he was transferred to Ladybrand and that period has not been included in the question of Mr du Plessis.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where you a student constable in the security branch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: So when were you in the security branch in Bloemfontein?  For what period?  In what capacities did you act in the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Initially in 1985, I started with them.  I can't remember whether it was in 1986 when they transferred me to Ladybrand and after that I went to the college but throughout I've been working with them as a constable.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do I understand you correctly,  in 1985 you joined the security branch of Bloemfontein before you went to Ladybrand.  For how long were you part of that security branch?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with all due respect, can I just tell my learned friend what the facts are.  We've gone through this in the cross-examination - we're just wasting time.  He was at school in 1985 and he finished his matric at the end of 1985.  From 1983 to 1985 he was an informer of the security branch in Bloemfontein.  He then was ...[inaudible] on the 11th of March 1986 as a student constable, worked from that time until the 19th of June 1986 in Bloemfontein and he was then transferred to Ladybrand.  He was then admitted to the college on the - either the 9th, 10th or 11th of July 1986.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, subject to the rider that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Subject isn't it, to the fact that he was assaulted and stabbed in 1985 as I recollect it and was then moved from where he had been at school since 1983 and was sent, was is not to Ladybrand to finish his schooling there, so there was - he did not remain permanently in the same place from 1983 to the end of 1985, there was a jump for a few months and then he came back.

MR VISSER: That is in fact correct, Mr Chairman and we believe, as from August 1985 until the end of the year.

ADV MEMANI: Also Mr Chairman, the witness - the applicant himself does not make a distinction as to when he ceased to be an informer and when he became a member of the security branch.  The general tenor of his evidence is that he was recruited as an informer and he always worked with the security branch.