Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said it was ANC supporters residing in Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: How many people have you killed in your life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In the case that I have been convicted for there were nine people that I killed.

MR LOWIES: So are you in jail for the murder of nine people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Are you serious because I thought it was only three?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I did not say three, I said there were nine people that I killed and that is why I was convicted.

MR LOWIES: Were you convicted of nine charges of murder to put it simply?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now we know of the nine that you were convicted of, it appears to me that you also killed people that you were not convicted of.  Am I correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: So you only in your life killed nine people?  You killed nobody in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were people that I killed in Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Well then it's more than nine.  Now you must please explain this.  You were convicted of nine people and we know you were not convicted of anything happening in Boipatong.  So how many people did you kill in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: Could it also be nine?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, what I'm saying is I do not know.

MR LOWIES: Why?  The reason why I'm asking is it's quite extraordinary, I would have thought that if you killed somebody you would know about it?  Why don't you know how many people you killed in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did mention before that I had drunk the Indelesi and I was in such a state that I was not able to tell who died or who didn't.  I just saw people falling.

MR LOWIES: So how many people did you see falling and if you can't give us exact figures give us an estimate.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember well.

MR LOWIES: And the reason why they were falling is because they were gunned down by you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And you're talking of people falling so we know that it's more than one?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes but I do not remember how many there were, I was under the influence of Indelesi.

MR LOWIES: Are you serious because it sounds ridiculous, even the people in this gallery are laughing at you.
It sounds incredible.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am serious because I do not remember how many people I killed.  I shot at them and they died but I do not know how many.

MR LOWIES: You shot at them and they died and you shot at them with an AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And that was the only weapon that you had?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Do you know how to operate an AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: By that I also mean how to load it, how to unload it, how to squeeze the trigger, how to make it safe etc?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes you just load the bullets into the magazine and that which is what you put into the gun and then if you do not want to use it at the time you can lock the gun and you can set it so that you can only use single shots.

MR LOWIES: Now we know that you've killed people and we know that you have also killed people in Boipatong but there you're not clear about the figures.  Besides these incidents, I'm talking about the nine for which you've been convicted on your version and the Boipatong incident, were there any other incidents where you shot at people, fired shots at people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the only incidents where I shot at people were the Sebokeng and Boipatong matters.

MR LOWIES: Now the Sebokeng matters, did all this happen on one day or more than one day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They happened on 15th June 1992, two days before the Boipatong massacre.

MR LOWIES: Did it all happen at the same place or at different places?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was at different places.

MR LOWIES: Where were these places and I'd like you to name them all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In Zone 12, it was in Zone 12 at a bus stop called Bosweni, there was a bus that was shot at at a small farm as well as in Everton at Jabu's place.  Those were the places that we fired shots at.

MR LOWIES: Chair, at this stage if it's appropriate for you to take the adjournment, I see my colleagues draw my attention to it that it's time for an adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the tea adjournment now and come back at 11.13.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you're still under oath.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o.)  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: (continues)   Thank you Chairman.
	Mr Nosenga during the adjournment my attention was drawn to the fact that you were indeed convicted of nine charges of murder but what I would like to put further to you is that in addition to that, you were also convicted of six counts of attempted murder wherein you fired shots at six different individuals.  Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: How were you arrested on these charges that you were convicted for?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was arrested in Parys for a stolen vehicle, I was brought to Vereeniging and ultimately taken to the police station where they questioned me about the murder incidents of Sebokeng.  Captain ...(indistinct) is the one who was questioning me.

MR LOWIES: But listen to this, you were arrested on a completely different charge and now they question you on murder charges.  How did they link these two incidents with each other, that's what I want to know from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was questioned on the matters, I was brought here to be questioned about what had happened at Sebokeng and I ultimately ended up telling them about the Sebokeng incident as well.

MR LOWIES: Out of your own free will?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I was tortured, I ended up telling them the truth because I had to go out and point out the places where these things took place as well.

MR LOWIES: And then you pleaded guilty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did because I was being tortured.

MR LOWIES: So we have the following, you were arrested and tortured and you confessed to certain offences including nine counts of murder.  Thereafter, you were again tortured and you must help me if I am wrong, so that you must plead guilty to these charges, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: So what you're saying is your plea of guilty on these charges was done under coercion, you were forced?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was being electrocuted, I was tortured.

MR LOWIES: But what I don't understand is why didn't you just tell them the truth in any event?  I'm talking about the police firstly, let's leave the court out for a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, ...(indistinct) one allows a cross-examiner a somewhat large latitude because one doesn't know what may or may become relevant from that line of cross-examination.  I've been listening to you for some time now.  Now having regard to what we'll have to consider in this matter, what is the relevance of the applicant not admitting to killings which have no relevance to the matters before us?  You should know that our constitution guarantees to a suspect the right to remain silent, he was not in your application to admit or to say anything to the police and where's it going to take us?