Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

MS PATEL: No, Mr Kgotlhe, my question to you was very specific.  I sought clarity on Mr Dolo's evidence to us here this morning that he had received information from you that the place had been reconnoitred the previous week.  Is that correct or not?  I'm just asking for clarity on that specific point not on all the other information that you did or didn't give him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I would like to - my learned colleague at least to specify what does it mean the previous week because Mr Dolo also indicated that he went there to Lesotho two weeks before the attack.  Which previous week is she referring to?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Mr Dolo referred to the week prior to the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson exactly, that's what I'm trying to get at because he said he does not know whether it was reconnoitred but he was always with the two others.  Mr Kgotlhe kept on going and coming, he does not know whether he was making reconnaissance, that's what he told the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I must just now make sure of that, of that detail.  Ms Patel, was it in cross-examination that he mentioned that it was reconnoitred the previous week, the week before the attack?

MS PATEL: Yes it was Honourable Chairperson.  I think that, I mean I haven't made notes while I was cross-examining but I think I asked him what - whether he in fact had reconnoitred the area that evening and he said no the place had been reconnoitred the previous week and that's what he was told.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no you see my recollection was that he had testified that he had understood that the reconnoitring was done days before the attack and I've just consulted the notes under cross-examination and that confirmed that that was the evidence.  My colleagues on the panel have the same note of his testimony so it seems as if he was referring to some days before the attack so perhaps you can put it in that sort of more accurate fashion?

MS PATEL: You heard what was said, Mr Dolo testified that the place was reconnoitred days before the attack, some days before the attack.  Can you confirm whether this is in fact correct?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I will agree with him, that is when he had already left Sterkspruit when he was in Lesotho already, then I will agree with him.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us how many days before the attack the place was reconnoitred?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Because I was based in Lesotho my reconnaissance was always continuous and I always obtained information.  I have already stated that it could have been months, one month or two months because my reconnaissance was being continued then.  When he arrived here we already left with some days before the operation and that was then I managed to orientate him about the area and give him some information.  What he said does not contradict what happened, he is right.  It took us days when he was with us but I cannot specifically say how many days we understood reconnaissance.

MS PATEL: Okay, given that your, as you say your reconnaissance was ongoing and that amongst your sources were the domestics who had been working in that area.  Can you tell whether you would have spoken to your sources a week before the attack had taken place?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes I can say it was a week before the operation that I had discussions with some of the workers to verify the information that I already had but that was not the first time that I had discussions with them, that I've already stated.

MS PATEL: And can you say whether the workers that you had spoken to had come from the home of Mrs Pienaar, the home that was in fact attacked?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Well I cannot say that.

MS PATEL: Sorry, I don't understand your answer, are you saying that you did not speak to anybody from her home or you did or you can't remember, which is it?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: My interest was not confined to that specific house, my interest was in the whole area, it was occupied by the police so I did not have a specific interest in that particular house but that area as a whole, that was where we were focusing our attention.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us how many policemen or members of the security force were living in that section of the street?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I have already explained that if not all the houses were occupied by the police it is unfortunate that we ended up attacking a house which was not occupied by the police.  But I cannot specifically mention the number of houses which were occupied by them because that was not important to us.  What was important to us was to carry out the attack like we did.  The main reason again why I say the most important thing was an attack was that our understanding was that all the White people, including the police, took part in oppressing the Black people.  Our interest was not on Mr Pienaar or Mrs Pienaar or Van der Merwe, all the White people were oppressing the Black people.  If it happened that at the end a house that was attacked did not belong to a policeman or a soldier still that house falls under our programme because when we participated in our struggle we never heard who was smiling with us or who loved us or we all treated White people as participants in oppression.

MS PATEL: So, given your explanation to us now, it doesn't really matter whether there were in fact members of the security force living in that area or in that specific street or not, the fact remains that they were White people and so they were legitimate targets in terms of your organisation's policy, is that what you're saying to us Sir?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I will explain this that it is known that that was the policy of Apla but concerning this operation what drew our interest was the fact that that area was occupied by the police but we knew that we were oppressed by the Whites, that was not a secret, everybody knew about that.

MS PATEL: Okay, if you're saying that you knew that your specific reason for going to that area was because there were police living in the area then at least you must be able to tell us, Sir, in terms of your reconnaissance that was carrying on for at least two months before the incident, you should be able to tell us how many policemen were living in that street?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I will repeat again and say that the number was not important to us, we never get how many people lived in that street, that's the answer that I give you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, can I just come in here?  To get more clarity on this, Mr Kgotlhe, in your discussions with these people who were giving you the information that some of the houses were occupied by members of the security forces, did you bother to find out which particular houses were not occupied by such members of the security forces and which others on the one hand were in fact so occupied, did you try to draw a distinction between the two?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: It may be possible that the house was attacked was occupied by the police, even the neighbour.  I will give an example.  After this attack on this particular house there was a return fire from that house and this can be testified to by this woman and they used military hardware which they called the ...(indistinct).  Those are military weapons, they're only used by the soldiers and the police.  Such weapons were used in returning the fire.  What I want to say is that this is an indication that when we went there we had the right information.  The weapon that was used can either be R1 or R4 unless this woman herself used that weapon then that would be a different story.
	Another thing that I want to mention is that this house that was attacked could have been used by the police or they never could have been used by the police or the soldiers.

ADV SANDI: If there was no such information that some of the houses were occupied by members of the security personnel, would you still have launched such an attack in the area?