Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MR HOCKEY: Now sir, Mr Isgak Hardien did not apply for amnesty as you did and the possibility is that he will be charged after these proceedings.  Do you agree with that?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, just for the record, Mr Hockey made this loud statement that he wants to put these questions in the presence of Mr Hardien in order to intimidate Mr Hardien, who I understand is going to testify here, because what other purpose can there by to say "I want to ask such questions in the presence of Mr Hardien"?

MR HOCKEY: On what basis can my statements be intimidating?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, I think - do you know whether Mr Hardien has applied for amnesty?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not have any knowledge of that, but as far as I know, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because whether he is prosecuted or not, is not for us to say.  We cannot even venture an opinion on that.

MR HOCKEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  In the event of Mr Hardien being charged for the bombing incident in Kewtown and in the event of you being called to testify against him, will you do so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I know the circumstances of the law, if you are subpoenaed to give evidence, you have to.

MR HOCKEY: So what you are saying is that you will under those circumstances, testify that Mr Hardien placed a bomb in the Early Learning Centre, is that what you are saying?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't have a choice.

MR HOCKEY: Thank you Your Worship, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hockey.  Ms Coleridge, would you like to ask Mr van Zyl any questions?

MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you Chairperson.  Just before I do, I just want to place on record that Mr Isgak Hardien has been notified in terms of Section 29(1)(c) of our Act Chairperson.  He has indicated that he is willing to testify before the Commission.  We have also arranged a date, Chairperson, he has been noted to appear before us from the 22nd to the 23rd of June, but I have informed him that this matter would probably be part-heard, and he would probably be heard later.  I just want to place that on record.
	And then just for all parties that are participating in these proceedings, just not to have any contact regarding these proceedings with Mr Isgak Hardien, as you are now well aware that he has been notified in terms of our Act.  That goes to all the applicants and to all the legal representatives.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Chairperson, do I take it that also goes to the representatives of the people opposing amnesty?

MS COLERIDGE: All legal representatives Chairperson, as well as the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge, any questions?

MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: Of course he may decide to find a legal representative amongst the ones present?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, if that happens ...

MS COLERIDGE: Mr van Zyl, I just want to get back to your banking details, you informed us that you weren't sure as to which accounts you had.  You weren't sure whether it was ABSA or Standard Bank, I just did a little bit of research and I just found out that you had, in that time you had an account that was in your wife's name and in your name at ABSA bank, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It may be.

MS COLERIDGE: And you had an Incom, what was your company called again?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You have the name, Incom Investigations.

MS COLERIDGE: Was with Standard Bank, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is good.

MS COLERIDGE: Now that we have that, can you tell us at which branches they were, if you think about your personal account, I am jogging your memory, ABSA bank, your wife's name and your name, can you tell us at which branch it was?  I will follow that up and I just need your assistance to make my job easier?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, once again we object, we see no relevance to this information for the purposes of these hearings.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want to do investigations here.

MS COLERIDGE: No, we don't, but Chairperson, it is relevant in so far as we all know that Mr van Zyl handled large amount of cash and so forth, and it is relevant for these proceedings.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Chairperson, we all know Mr van Zyl handled a lot amounts of cash, that is an incorrect statement?  We have heard Mr Burger had R25 000, gave him R25 000, large amounts of cash?
	Mr Chairperson, there is a procedure under the Act, to have held the investigations, we are now at hearings, what is the relevance of this information to extract information at hearings when the procedure was provided for, and I think it is Section 29 of the Act.  We are placing our objection to this, on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you said that the reason you are asking him the question is to facilitate your outside investigation, it is not really for evidence for our benefit?

MS COLERIDGE: Sure Chairperson, it is just I know that Mr Bizos had raised the question of finances and the banking details, whether at the, during the course of the hearings, whether we are going to subpoena any banks in relation to that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think perhaps the investigation, there has been an objection and we know that it is not for, it could go to the merits of this matter that we are listening to, perhaps if the investigation can be carried  on, if you have established the banks, I am sure it wouldn't be difficult in the normal investigatory process, to establish which the branch was.

MS COLERIDGE: Yes Chairperson, therefore I am just asking Mr van Zyl just to expedite matters.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he has refused ...

MS COLERIDGE: He hasn't refused yet, his counsel has.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's hear from Mr van Zyl.  You can answer it, if you want to answer it, you can answer it.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Incom Investigations was Standard Bank, End Street and my personal accounts are currently at ABSA bank in Randburg.   I do not know where it was before Randburg, but you can trace it from there, it is easy.

MS COLERIDGE: And End Street, where is that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: In Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: End Street is a street in Johannesburg, it is in the CBD area there.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson, I am indebted to you.

MR LAX: Sorry, it is End Street, as opposed to In Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, End, like in finish.

MS COLERIDGE: And then just in relation to your code names,  Mr van Zyl, it was Andrew Rossouw and Theunissen, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Andries Rossouw.

MS COLERIDGE: Andries?   And did you have any other code names?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  Thinus de Wet, Andries Rossouw.

MS COLERIDGE: Were those the only two?  Did you have any ID documents to go with these code names and fictitious names?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: None.

MS COLERIDGE: Because I see in Wouter Basson's diary he arranged lots of ID documents, passports, etc, for members.  Did he ever arrange ID documents to go with those code names for you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you have any banking accounts in foreign countries?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: At that stage, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry with regard to these code names, did you have bank accounts in Tinus de Wet or Andries Rossouw's name?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, I have never had a false bank account.

CHAIRPERSON: Regarding your business, your Incom business, what did the CCB give you to start the business, what amount of money did they give you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Nothing.

MS COLERIDGE: So you had to start a front company on your own, with no capital outlay from the CCB, is that what you are saying?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct, they only paid my monthly rent.  I had a shredder, I had a safe, I bought the shredder when I left the CCB and also the safe, I bought them from the CCB.  There is nothing else that I received from them.

MS COLERIDGE: What in total amount, did this come to at the end of the month, your rental, etc, etc?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Approximately R2 000-00 per month.