Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I perhaps comment just on two aspects.  
	The first aspect is that the evidence pertaining to Brigadiers Victor and Schoon which was given 
this morning, was actually in the light of the previous evidence that was given, no more than probably a 
repetition of what was given already.
	So that evidence was in any event available to Mr Visser and there is nothing new in terms of 
which his clients have been implicated.  
	In respect of the affidavits that they want to hand up Mr Chairman, clearly we do not have a 
problem with that, except for one aspect thereof, and that is that I would like to be in a position to be able to 
consider the contents of such an affidavit before evidence is led pertaining to a specific incident, so that I 
can take it up with my clients, so that I can lead evidence pertaining to any contradictions PRETORIA 
HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 96

<UNKNOWN>: between my client's evidence and whatever is contained in such an affidavit.
	We do not have any objection that the contents of our amnesty applications be made available to 
Mr Visser for that purpose so that they can go through that and so that they will then obviously be able to 
provide us with copies of such affidavits beforehand.  Obviously it would have an effect on our client's 
applications, because of the fact that the contradictions might cause us certain difficulties which we do not 
know at this stage what facts will be contradicted, otherwise Mr Chairman I will have to ask the Committee 
to recall my clients after giving evidence and after having received the affidavits in specific incidents, 
which I would not want to do.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, I think nobody wants to have these proceedings carry on indefinitely.  There must be 
some
finality in the submissions that you wish to make on behalf of your clients, and if the time comes when Mr 
Visser's clients make their application for amnesty, the Committee will bear in mind whatever differences 
there are, between the evidence they give and the evidence you give.
	Some of these differences may be faulty recollections, because of passage of time, they may be on 
side issues and not on material issues, those are factors which we will take into account, but I think that in 
fairness to your clients, if there is anything material you client's attention will be drawn to those.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, do I understand then that the Committee will draw our attention to 
any contradictions which the Committee deem important and which will then be taken up?
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 97

HASSAN MALL: That is in addition to the fact that you will be given the affidavits by Mr Visser?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: You will have an opportunity of deciding yourself as to whether the differences between 
your clients' version and his clients' is on a material issue or on a side issue and so on.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I understand.

HASSAN MALL: And we rely on your good judgement.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, the only point that I am trying to make is that I would prefer having those 
affidavits before my clients give evidence, that is the only request that I have.

HASSAN MALL: If that is possible, we must do so.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we have offered to make these available to my learned friend.  He hasn't 
been listening to
what I've been saying.  We are under no obligation to him to give it to him, I am not going to undertake to 
give it to him any period of time beforehand because it depends on when they are going to become 
available, we've got the right to place before you evidence where we are implicated Mr  Chairman, so I 
don't need his objection or his admission either.  We've offered it Mr Chairman, we certainly don't want to 
get involved in an argument about it with my learned friend.

HASSAN MALL: No, I think it is a question of not merely making a verbal offer, I am talking about 
making them available.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, we will make it available.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.
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GAUTENG: 98

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I still don't understand my learned friend.

HASSAN MALL: I think if you have a chat with him during the adjournment you might be able to 
understand.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, alright, then I would like to do that Mr Chairman, because I don't understand 
my learned friend to say that he will give it before we give evidence, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: ;	Alright, would you clear it up with him during the adjournment, please.  I'd like us to 
proceed with the evidence.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes.  Mr Chairman, I just want to make this clear, if we are not going to be provided 
the opportunity of having sight of whatever they are going to place before the Committee ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis how can he reply to an allegation before you've given evidence?  He 
obviously has to hear the evidence and then reply thereto.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But Mr Chairman because the evidence is contained in the applications and we 
offered to make the applications available.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, he hasn't had the applications up to now.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But we are offering to make it available now, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: I appeal to the good sense of the parties in this matter, not to engage in this kind of 
debate. I am sure that commonsense will prevail if you come together and sort this matter out as best as you 
can.

ADV DU PLESSIS: We will endeavour to do so, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Please.

JUDGE WILSON: But I think you must bear in mind is that 
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GAUTENG: 99
what Mr Visser, as I understand him is trying to do, is to comply with the provisions of the Act which 
entitle his clients to be heard, but to avoid having days and days of oral evidence by giving affidavits which 
if we accept, we need not hear his clients and obviously if those affidavits conflict with what your clients 
have said, then that witness will have to be heard, they cannot conflict merely by affidavit.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Well, Mr Chairman, that is one of the problems that I have got.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes you will get the affidavit, if it conflicts you can ask for the witness to be 
called.  If it agrees with what your clients have said, we waste no further time.

MR VISSER: That is precisely correct, Mr Chairman, we are trying to help streamline the procedure.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, thank you.  You may proceed.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I would like to proceed with the second video.  Mr 
Chairman, I don't know when the tea break would be.  If it is quarter past eleven we will not be finished 
with the video I think.

HASSAN MALL: Alright.  We will then take the adjournment now and resume at a quarter past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS.
COMMITTEE RESUMES.

ADV DU PLESSIS: We have had discussions with the legal representatives of the 81 other policemen.  
We have received certain affidavits, I am not hundred percent sure that they are all the affidavits.  We have 
not yet as far as I am 
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GAUTENG: 99
concerned, come to a hundred percent final arrangement in that regard. I still need to clear up one or two 
points.  I must say that in principle in a discussion between my attorney and Mr Wagenaar, there was 
agreement in principal and both parties intend to work together so it is just a question of clearing up one or 
two points, I just want to make that clear.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I ask something Mr Visser, which you will have to ask your attorney I 
think, that is how quickly would he be able to give us a list of persons implicated in your applications and 
would he be able to give a list, this would be for our assistance and not binding, of the incidents in which 
persons are involved in your applications?