Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR DORFLING: I want to move onto another aspect Sir. And that pertains to your attitude towards Zulu people. I would like to first of all refer you to portions of the record and evidence you gave at the time of the inquest proceedings to see whether you agree with that evidence and to see whether that is still your view today. I would like to start in the sequence in which it happened at the Inquest Court.
	At the time of you giving evidence you explained at the way in which you fired and you also motivated what was going through your mind at the time. At page 2970 of the record I find the following version put forward by you. You say that what attracted your attention to the corner of King George and de Villiers Street was the fact that you heard one or two shots. Just to put you in the picture. Have you got it Mr Molefe? It is page 2970. You describe how you heard one or two shots, how you approached the corner of King George and de Villiers Street, how you saw the white policemen trying to block the crowd approach. How you indicated to Veli Llale that there were certain firearms amongst the marchers. And you say apparently the policemen was defeated and I think you used similar words today. The policemen didn't manage to get the crowd distracted or to divert their on-coming march. You see that? It is the top of page 2970. It is the first nine or ten lines I am reading from.

MODISE MOLEFE: Where Sir?

MR DORFLING: It is page 2970. Have you got the right page, that is the record?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I am reading the first nine to ten lines or I am just summarising.

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Then you go on to describe how you pointed out to Veli a huge black man amongst the crowd with an AK47 and how you perceived rapid automatic fire to be emanating from the advancing crowd. And how the particles of concrete flew up and hit you. This is the time when you and Veli Llale, you pull Veli Llale down and you go to the indent in the parapet. Are you with me? I am reading from line 14 now and I am going to read verbatim from the record
" Because of the position I was, I was not able to see who is shooting. I fired an AK myself and the purpose of firing I want to put it before you that if I had a position of seeing them I am not trying to be smart in this court, I could have mowed them down."
Do you see that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I see that.

MR DORFLING: Am I correct in saying that you tried to convey to Mr Justice Nugent that if you had a proper position from which you could fire you would have mowed down the crowd. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: This specific response of yours in evidence in chief was later taken up again in cross-examination by Mr Joubert on behalf of the South African Police. I would like to deal with your response to him at the time when he took that up with you. I am referring to page 3034 at line 20.

MODISE MOLEFE: 30?

MR DORFLING: 3034 at line 20.

MODISE MOLEFE: At 303?

MR DORFLING: 3034 Mr Molefe, 3034.

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Do you see in the right hand margin the little numbers it says 10 and 20 in the right hand margin. Do you see that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Okay.

MR DORFLING: I am going to be reading where you see the number 20. That is at line 20 on the page. Do you see that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Mr Joubert on behalf of the South African Police is cross-examining at this time and he now deals with your evidence that if a certain scenario existed, being the scenario that if you were in a position to shoot you would have mowed them down. And he asks you the following question
" You testified that if there was a certain scenario you would have mowed the people down in the streets. Is that correct?"
Do you see that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: And I do not want to be blamed for quoting your response out of context so let me proceed and read your full response to that question. You say from line 22 onwards
"Your Honour stopped me when I said that the question that some of the lawyer asked me I said it touches me deep in the recess; 'He said let us not waste time. Let us be specific.' I wanted to tell him why and I said I co-operated with him. He said no and he cut me."
In other words here you are trying to convey to Mr Justice Nugent you wanted to give a full response previously you were cut short. You are now going to give a full response. Is that what you were trying to convey to Mr Justice Nugent?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: And you now go on to give your full response
"I just want to understand what did you mean by that
when you said?"
And your response: -
"If you, Your Honour can give me the permission because he said I told him that I am the victim myself and if I have that chance I will use it maximally."
What did you mean by that Mr Molefe?

MODISE MOLEFE: Your Lordship as I responded to Advocate Dorfling. I am coming from a detribalised society, a non-racial organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard all that.

MODISE MOLEFE: I as a victim of the IFP all what divide us is the railway line. I said to you the (...indistinct) I said to you Mukwana is dead.

MR DORFLING: I am sorry Mr Molefe.

MODISE MOLEFE: You are quoting me out of context. You are quoting me out of context. I said even my house at home IFP from the hostel, all that divide us is a railway line, breaking the furniture, raping women, killing women. And unfortunately here in this Committee we do not have the video that you ask yesterday about so many people that have been harassed by IFP. So many people that have been killed in (...indistinct) So many people who have been (...indistinct) And now you are playing with the sentiments of the people. And in that context if I wanted to react, if I wanted to react like Barend Strydom, if I wanted to react like Barend Strydom I could have done that but because of the discipline and the policy of the African National Congress I could not do that. However I am not acting out of malice. I am not acting out of hatred. I am not acting to avenge because simply of the policy and the principle of the African National Congress. Let alone I as (...indistinct) having a scar. No I do not hate them but I got a scar. I appreciate that.

MR DORFLING: I have heard your answer. You are therefore saying that you would not have acted out of hatred. Is that correct? You did not hate the Zulu people and the marchers in the street on that day, is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

MR DORFLING: Now could we examine that answer of yours closer with reference to your evidence at the Inquest Court. I want to read further at page 3035 from lines 3 onwards. This is just after you said: "I will use the chance maximally. I will use it maximally if I have that chance." And then Mr Justice Nugent's question

MR DORFLING: "If you had the chance to do what?

WITNESS: Your Honour he said isn't it, the position there I was, I was it is not awkward that we cannot shoot. There is a wall and I am short, when I fall I die. You cannot shoot.

MR DORFLING: 		Yes?

WITNESS: But if I had the chance Your Honour maybe a clean."

MR DORFLING: And then there is an intervention.

MR DORFLING: "If you had a chance you would have shot you mean?

WITNESS: I would have killed them Your Honour very friendly and I am not a cold-blooded murderer. You said I must stop it. I said in the deep, in the recess of my heart you are touching me where I have never been touched emotionally."

MR DORFLING: What you are explaining there to Mr Justice Nugent your position just made it awkward for you to shoot. If you had a good position you would have shot the Zulus. And you specifically implied you would have mowed them down like you previously explained. That is your evidence Sir.