Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-08

MARY BURTON: We call to the stage now our next two witnesses, Mkhonto Mfazwe and Monwabisi Maseti.  We have asked you to come to the - we have asked you to come to the stage together because from reading the statements that you have made, we are aware that your experiences are fairly similar and that your testimonies will complement one another, so we welcome you and thank you very much for coming.  May I ask you to stand and swear the oath please.  First one and then the other.  
MKOHNTO MFAZWE  Duly sworn states
MONWABISI MASETI   Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Advocate Potgieter will facilitate your testimonies.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Maseti, Mr Mfazwe, good morning again and welcome.  I think will start with Mr Maseti, you are in front of the microphone, so we will listen to your evidence first and then we will deal with Mr Mfazwe.
 Now as the Chairperson has indicated - your - you are both from Noupoort and your experiences are very, very much identical.  Happened also roughly at about the same time and that is why we've got you both together, but we will start with you Mr Maseti.  
 Thank you very much.  I am going to move to Mr Mfazwe and we listen to his testimony before I hand back to the Chairperson.  And they might want to ask you some further questions Mr Maseti, but we will hear from [indistinct].
 Mr Mfazwe good morning again.  Won't you try to sit a little bit close to the microphone - then your voice will become a bit louder and everybody can hear.
 Now you as well as we've said earlier - you're also from Noupoort were detained in August of 1985, is that correct?

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Yes, I was detained in 1985 August.  They kept on coming to fetch me from home - interrogating me about NOYCO.  They asked what NOYCO stands for.  I used to answer and tell them that they mustn't ask me that because they've got the constitution.  They would show me document with the executive members of NOYCO.  They asked me if I was an executive member.  I said yes.  They said that there are two constitutions of NOYCO.  They do not have the correct one.  I asked them whether this - which on was the correct one as they thought.  They would not reply.  They would take me to the police station and torture me.  Take me home and take me back again.
  Sometimes they would detain me for two weeks.  I would go through the same process.  If  I would not know what they requested, they would torture me.

ADV POTGIETER: In 1985 when you were detained - what were you doing.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: I was at school.  I was sixteen years of age.

ADV POTGIETER: Now were you - you were detained and you were questioned and you were assaulted.  Were you ever charged in 85 for anything.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: I was never charged - all the time I was never charged.

ADV POTGIETER: With this - your detention and the assaults and the tortures during 1985 [indistinct].

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: It was Mr Maliti.

ADV POTGIETER: Is he from - is he a policeman from Noupoort.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Where is he from.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Are you talking about the police.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja, I'm talking about this Mr Maliti.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: He worked in Middleburg, but I think he was born in Noupoort.

ADV POTGIETER: Tell me, was he a security policeman - security branch.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: He was a security police.  He was in the security branch.

ADV POTGIETER: What did he do to you in that 1985 a detention.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: He beat me with a sjambok.  He then immersed my face in water.  In iced water.  Every time I would go there her would threaten me and he said he would immerse my face in cold water.

ADV POTGIETER: How did you feel - you were sixteen years old - you were very young during this - how did you feel during this way that you were treated during this period.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: I was terrified.  Every time they came to fetch me, I would cry.

ADV POTGIETER: During June of 1986 you were arrested at home and you were then eventually again detained - is that correct.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Yes sir, it is so.

ADV POTGIETER: The Constable Jack who was involved in your detention - is that correct.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Yes sir, it is so.

ADV POTGIETER: You were in fact held at Richmond police station during the period - this term of detention.  Is that right.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Yes sir, it is so.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you tell us about that detention - what your experiences were.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: On the 18th of July, police came home.  I was sleeping - they opened my window.  They woke me up saying they want me.  They took me to the police station in Noupoort.  They then said they would transfer me to Richmond.  I was in solitary confinement.  Every morning they would say I must take my blanket and put them in the store and then they would command me to clean my cell.  They would give me a hosepipe to wash my cell.  It was in the middle of June.  It was freezing.  My feet were swollen all the time.  I would get blisters.  I would get blisters.
When I went to the doctor, the doctor said my environment was very cold.  The temperature was too low for me.  My feet still hurt me, especially when it is cold.  Every winter I have to take sick leave.

ADV POTGIETER: How long did you spend I detention.  How long did you spend in detention in 1986.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Two months, sir.  Two months in Richmond - one month in Middleburg - therefore it was three months.

ADV POTGIETER: How long did you spend in solitary confinement.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Seventy-five days sir.

ADV POTGIETER: And at that stage you were seventeen years old.  That was just the following year after the first detention - is that correct.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: Yes sit, I was seventeen years of age.

ADV POTGIETER: What effect did all this have on you.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: After I got out of jail, I live in fear.  I do not want to be with anyone.  I did not understand at my age that I was not a criminal as I was detained - I thought a criminal.  Then people would explain to me that when you are actually detained - you are not being charged of any criminal offence.  I worked for the Local Authority at Noupoort.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you complete your studies.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: I am matriculated.  After that I went to University for a year.  But because I was financially impaired, I had to go back to work.  My health was not good either.

ADV POTGIETER: When did you spend - during which year were you at University.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: It was in 1991.  No sir sorry, 1992.

ADV POTGIETER: Do you intend to pursue those studies of yours.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: If I would get financial aid, I would continue with my studies.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you living with your parents.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: I have one parent - my mother.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct]

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: No, I am not married.

ADV POTGIETER: No dependants.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: No, I do not have children.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anything else that you would like to add to your testimony.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Nothing that you would like ask - to know about.

MKOHNTO MFAZWE: I finished sir.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Mfazwe.

ADV POTGIETER: I am now going to hand to the Chairperson.  Thank you very much.