Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson I call Mogoera Valentine Modikoa, application number 7212/97.  His application is on page 142 of Volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Modikoa, what language do you choose to use here?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Northern Sotho, Sir.

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: (sworn states)

MR SAMUELS: Mr Modikoa, do you belong to a political party?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for amnesty for the offences of arson, attempted murder and kidnapping, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: That is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Let's talk about the arson.  Can you tell us when this occurred and who was the victim?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: It was in 1993, it was at night.  We went to Ben - Sibongele Sambo's house.  The house number is 9381, that is Sibongele Sambo's house.

MR SAMUELS: Why did you burn Sibongele Sambo's house?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Sibongele was a member of the IFP.

MR SAMUELS: Who were you with and who ordered you to burn Sibongele's house?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: We received an order from Meneer.  I was with Jango, Mdmase and M'Africa.

ADV DE JAGER: Repeat the names please?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: That is myself, Jango, Mdmase and M'Africa.

MR SAMUELS: What did you use to burn the house with?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: We used petrol bombs.

MR SAMUELS: Tell me, when you burnt the house was there anybody present?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes, they were present in the house.

MR SAMUELS: Who was present that you know of?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: That is Sibongele Sambo was present in the house.

MR SAMUELS: Did you think by throwing a petrol bomb onto her house that you could endanger her life?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I knew very well.

MR SAMUELS: Now let's talk about the kidnapping incident.  Can you tell us when that occurred?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: That's Sibongele Sambo.  A month after the arson we went to fetch her from Section 5.  We informed her to go with us then she denied therefore we decided to take her by force to Section 2.  When we arrived there, Ben Mashinini who was the commander, it was myself, Vuyisili and Jabu.  Then Mashinini instructed us that because we were not armed we should return.

MR SAMUELS: What did you then do?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: We returned back.  We waited for those who went with her to find out what happened.

MR SAMUELS: Did you know that when you were told by your commander Ben Mashinini to leave the house, did you know that Sibongele and her sister would be attacked by your comrades?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: May you please repeat the question?

MR SAMUELS: Sorry.  When you were told to leave along with Vuyisile and Jabu, did you know what was going to happen at the house after that?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I did not know Sir.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you, I have no more questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen there, were they going to have a party?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I thought they were going to be questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: About what?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: About their involvement with IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: May it please you, Mr Chairman.  How far apart from the others, apart from each other were your involvements in the two incidents pertaining to Sibongele?  How far apart in time?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: It's a month.

MR SWANEPOEL: So you were involved in two incidents pertaining to Sibongele in a space of one month apart from each other and you testified that knew her well, is that true?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I knew her well.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now look at your application on page 144.  Let me first ask you, who filled out this application, whose handwriting is this?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: There was somebody who was filling in that form but I was instructing him what to do.

ADV DE JAGER: What's the name of this person filling in a form?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: That is George, I don't know his surname Sir.

MR SWANEPOEL: But you instructed him what to fill out here, what to write here on this paper, is that right?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: Then why do you say under the question
"State whether any persons was injured, killed or suffered any damage to the property as the result of such acts?"
"Yes, but I don't know their names, they were killed when we were defending.  Why is that?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: May you please repeat the question?

MR SWANEPOEL: I want to know from you, if you knew Sibongele well and you were involved in two attacks in the space of one month at the same premises on this person, why don't you disclose her name in your application?  Is it perhaps because when you filled out this application you did not have this specific incident in mind?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I knew that it was Sibongele.  I did not know her sister's identity.  I filled these forms after I've received their names.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you have the incident that you gave evidence about or the incidents that you gave evidence about in mind when you gave George instructions to fill out these forms?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I was not writing about those two incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not writing about them did you say?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the interpreter suspects that the applicant doesn't hear correctly, maybe if they can change his earphones?  He must be on channel 3, please put him on channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to hear properly now?  Are you able to hear properly.

ADV DE JAGER: You should answer, the machine can't take up your nodding of your head, so you say yes or no.

INTERPRETER: Can I start from the third question?

CHAIRPERSON: Of the mechanisms are operating properly.

INTERPRETER: Yes they do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can the witness hear from the phones what is being asked?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I do hear now.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the most important question that is being recently asked is when you filled in this form, or when this form was being completed, were you talking or were you referring to the incidents relating to the burning and attempted murder as you referred to in respect of Miss Sibongele Sambo and a month thereafter the kidnapping, were you referring to those incidents after you completed the application or some other incident?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I was referring to them because we filled this form after we did those incidents then at that time when I filled this form I didn't know their identity.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought you said when you got the order to go kidnap then you knew who you must go kidnap, no so?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I knew that we were going to Extension 5 but I did not have the full information about the identity of the person we're going to kidnap.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you going to kidnap?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I only heard when the commander instructed us that we should go and kidnap Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) knew he was talking about?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I knew that the commander knew the person, he has the full information about the identity of that person.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about you, did you know who he was talking about?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: No, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you find out who Sibongele was by name?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I knew after - when we were filling, after we had filled the forms.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now the first attack, the arson attack that you carried out on Sibongele's house, who did you receive your orders from?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: On arson the order came from Mr Meneer.

MR SWANEPOEL: And at that stage who was the commander of Section 2 or Extension 2?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: It was both Meneer and Ben Mashinini.