Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-18

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Sgt Geldenhuys, if I remember correctly, stood there next to me, with the deceased.

MS PATEL: What exactly did you say to the deceased when you came into the house?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I asked him what was the matter with him and he told me that the police had shot him.  I asked him when and where it had happened, but he did not answer me.

MS PATEL: Could it be that he was in too much pain?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I won't be able to say.  I don't know whether the person couldn't or didn't want to answer me.

MS PATEL: What was his mental state at the time, was he very calm, was he agitated, what was the deceased's mental state at the time, can you say?  Was he calm, did he respond to you, in what tone, give us an indication of what that was like?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: He certainly appeared to be afraid.

MS PATEL: Yes, that is what Mrs Hardy says, he was very afraid.  In fact he was crying and screaming for his father?  Would you like to comment Mr Luff?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I cannot recall him having shouted, shouting for his father, or screaming or anything like that.

MS PATEL: Mrs Hardy also says she cannot, well she cannot, it is a long time ago, but she cannot recall whether it was you or Mr Geldenhuys, but when you barged into her home, you said to the deceased "here is the bastard", do you recall saying that?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I deny saying that.

MS PATEL: And further that "this is the person that we have been looking for", or words to that effect in Afrikaans?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Your Worship, I could have said "here is the person we have been looking for", because it was the person we were looking for.  It could have been possible that I or Cons Geldenhuys could have said that.  With that I don't want to say that it had been said, but it could have been possible that we could have said "this is the person we have been looking for".

MS PATEL: Did you have to hold him up when you walked him out?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: No.  As a security measure because we were not using handcuffs with the uniforms, I grabbed him on his left arm and he was walking all by himself.

MS PATEL: Did Mr Geldenhuys not come out with you?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I cannot remember precisely whether Geldenhuys left the shack together with me.  I can remember that he said that he wanted to search the house for more wounded persons or suspects.  I cannot remember whether he left the house before me, after me or together with me.

MS PATEL: Mrs Hardy says that she recalls that both you and Mr Geldenhuys dragged the deceased, screaming, out of the house and it was a very short time after that, that the shot was fired.  She does not recall Mr Geldenhuys staying behind to search the premises.  She says you both left together with him.  Is it possible?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: As I have already testified, I cannot remember whether Geldenhuys left the premises before me, after me or together with me.  I can just remember outside of this house, he told me that he was just going to search the premises further.  With that I am not saying that he had entered the house again, possibly he went around the back of the house, I don't know exactly what he had done because I was standing with the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: The point is that you and Geldenhuys dragged the deceased from the house while he was screaming?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: No, me nor Geldenhuys did not drag this person from the house.  I led him from the house by holding him to his left arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you honourable Chairperson.  Why didn't you call for help when you say  the deceased had managed to escape.  Why didn't you call Geldenhuys?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: There was no time to call anybody.  It was very dark and this person was busy running away.

MS PATEL: This is an injured person who you say is trying to run away, what do you mean there was no time?   Mr Geldenhuys couldn't have been very far from you, if he wasn't with you, that premises is very small, he couldn't have been more than a couple of paces away from you, what do you mean there was not time?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I don't know where Geldenhuys was at that stage, I only know that I did not know him.  I pursued this person immediately.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that after you fell and you managed to retrieve your weapon, you pursued him and then shot him?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I pursued this person immediately, I stumbled over something, I fell, I grabbed my shotgun again and then I shouted to him to stand still.  I cannot remember exactly what I said, but it was something to that regard, I told him to stand still otherwise I was going to shoot.

MS PATEL: The distance from where he was shot to where you had fallen, you had fallen at the stop of the main house, the house in front, not so?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: That is correct yes.

MS PATEL: And the deceased was shot just outside the front gate, not so or that is where he had fallen?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: It was approximately near to the next house that he fell,  it was almost on the fence of the next house, that is where we found him.

MS PATEL: Which angle did you shoot, did you shoot in the direction of the gate or did you shoot in the direction of, well, let me get my bearing, towards where the hall would have been?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I cannot say exactly which angle I shot at, all I know is that I fired a shot.  I fired in the direction where I heard the deceased running away.

MS PATEL: Mr Luff, you have a set of photographs in front of you, honourable Chairperson, this was not included in the Bundle, my apologies for that, may we tender it as Exhibit A?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  How many photographs are there?

MS PATEL: Four.

CHAIRPERSON: So will you mark them A1 to A4 and just indicate the sequence of the photographs.

MS PATEL: Mr Luff, if you go to the last photograph, it says photograph 4, can you give us an indication as to where you were at the time when you fired the shot?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Approximately where that person on the photograph is standing, the person marked "c".

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't there another copy of those photographs?

MS PATEL: You mean the originals honourable Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, whatever.  Oh, I see there is one copy ...

MS PATEL: No, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the next, oh, all right, oh yes, it seems to be attached to this affidavit.  Yes, all right, we've got that, sorry.  Just tell us where you were?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Approximately, well exactly where that man is standing "L" is standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Thank you honourable Chairperson.  And where was the deceased's body found on that photograph, can you tell us?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: More or less where that person marked "M" is standing.

MS PATEL: So that is not a great distance, Mr Luff?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: The distance, I cannot estimate how far that is, I would say that is about 20 paces.

MS PATEL: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you inspected this area?

MS PATEL: I have honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you, is there a key that gives an idea of the distances?

MS PATEL: There is, yes, there is honourable Chairperson, it is the page - let me just ...

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, I see it is page 2 of the key and it seems to suggest that the distance between "L" and "M" is 11 yards or 11 paces.

MS PATEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be correct?

MS PATEL: That would be correct honourable Chairperson, it is actually a very small, the home itself is very small and the distance from the gate, the front gate to where Mrs Hardy's front door is, is also a very small distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PATEL: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Luff, that distance is indicated in the key to these photographs as 11 paces, do you accept that?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Yes, I accept that it could be possible, I estimated about 20 paces.  I do not have the key to this plan.