Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MRPETER SOLLER: I'd sometimes wish you could.  Apprapo what Mr Vally says and listening to what my learned friend Mr Semenya says, he's rather putting the horse before the cart, he's saying: "Find the people for me, then I'll deal with them".  I want to tell you this Mr Chairperson, within 48 hours of it being known that I was acting for Mr Mbatha - I haven't said a word up to date, within 48 hours I received death threats.
 I then spoke to the Internal Stability Unit of the South African Police to look after my home and I can tell you Mr Chairperson, that that has not taken place at all.  Now that's troubled me, it's troubled me throughout this enquiry and it becomes more troubling when I hear what Mr Vally now says because Mr Vally and I - as you know and as you've seen, have not been in frequent communication with each other at all.  
 It is clear Mr Chairperson, - notwithstanding that Mr Semenya says: "Find the person first and then lodge your complaint" - it's not as simple as that, Mr Semenya cannot say that.  The undertaking which is required and the assurances required is that the protection is there, you can't go and hunt the criminal when you don't know who you're looking for Mr Chairperson - if I can put it that way.
 And it's quite clear that there is a form of intimidation taking place and we seek you and your learned colleagues counsel and your wisdom on this topic Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I have indicated that I think we should sit down and take counsel. I have made the point that we will not obviously tolerate any form of intimidation of witnesses either real or supposed.  People might think that that is what is going to take place and we've said we will do everything we can to ensure that people receive witness protection and if we can perhaps leave it at that.  We are going to take a lunch break and we will need to be consulting to find out how we take it from there.  I don't know - we probably want to go.
 Mr Mbatha?  Mr Mbatha?  
 Mr Mbatha is here Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.

MRPETER SOLLER: He is here, is in the escort of the South African Prisons authorities but he will take the stand Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Chairperson, on behalf of Mr Dlamini it appears from what I've heard now from my attorney and also from Mr Dlamini himself that he needs some kind of medication or medical treatment before being able to give his evidence.   There are bureaucratic difficulties insofar as the Prisons Services are concerned, they would have to phone the prison and fill in a form and get a letter and I don't know what all before they could effectively give him any medical treatment.  I was wondering Mr Chairman, whether the Commission may authorise the expenses of him - I don't believe it would involved anything much more
than a consultation and some type of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think we need to do that, let that happen as quickly as possible.  We are aware of our own exergencies but we are very concerned about his own physical well-being and that should take priority of our concerns and therefore yes, the Commission will take - as we are limited, responsibility for today.  Therefore if he can ...[intervention]

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha?  Good afternoon Mr Dlamini - Mbatha, oh dear, it's Monday.  Good day Mr Mbatha, which language are you going to speak?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'm going to speak Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much for having appeared before this Commission after waiting for quite a long time.  Officer, could you please introduce yourself just so that we know.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'm Simon Thabani Ndambo.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your rank?

MR NDAMBO: Correctional Officer Grade One.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Could you please stand Mr Mbatha?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mbatha, could you put the earphones on your ears please.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just find our whether there is a briefer.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you able to hear me properly?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you place your full names on the record please?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Mr Zakhele Cyril Mbatha.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (sworn states)

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Chairperson, before I proceed with leading this witness's evidence, I notice that he appeared to come out of a room on the side and perhaps he didn't hear your comments about the intimidation.  Could you with respect Mr Chairperson, indicate to him that you will arrange or will to it as best you can that he's fears of intimidation are allayed Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: After we heard that there could be some form of intimidation or threats against your person or your family, we as the Commission decided that we are not going to tolerate that type of behaviour or threats.
 We do confirm that you're not going to come across any such intimidation or threats because you're in prison anyway and you're under absolutely no threat.  We would like to confirm that your family will also be protected from the intimidation.

MRPETER SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.
 Mr Mbatha, you're presently serving a life sentence in Pretoria's prison for killing Doctor Asvat by shooting him twice in the chest, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's Doctor Asvat, you tend to say Asavat.

MRPETER SOLLER: I think I was just following one of the sheep here Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is Asvat.

MRPETER SOLLER: As it pleases you Mr Chairperson.

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Mbatha, before you proceed with the actual killing or murder itself, would you tell the Commission how old you are?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'm not really sure how old I am but I was born in February 1968.

MRPETER SOLLER: Is it correct that you came up to the Transvaal - now Gauteng, when you were a young man from the Natal region of Hammersdale, Richmond - that area?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.  I'm not from Richmond, I'm from Mthabateni.

MRPETER SOLLER: Is Mthabateni in the Natal area?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Mbatha, was there a particular reason why you came up from the Natal are to the Gauteng area?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I could say the reason was job hunting as well as being closer to my elder brothers.

MRPETER SOLLER: By job hunting one can assume that you felt the prospects of getting employment in the Gauteng area were better, is that correct.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, the people from the media are complaining about your sunglasses and the reflection that it creates, could you please take them off?  Is it a medical problem that you have with your eyes or is it just for ornamental purposes?

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Commissioner, I suspect - without consulting with this witness, that the sunglasses arise from the fear of identification.  I've consulted every day with the witness without sunglasses.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's better for you to take off your glasses, thank you.

MRPETER SOLLER: In any event Mr Mbatha, you need have no concern, the Chairperson and his Committee will take care of your concerns this afternoon.  Let's just carry on please.  You then came up to the Gauteng - what was then known as the Transvaal area, in approximately what year?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you please repeat your question.

MRPETER SOLLER: In approximately what year did you come up from Natal to the Gauteng area to go job hunting as you put it to the Chairperson?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think it was in 1982 if I'm not mistaken.

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Mbatha, something will turn on this question at a later stage.  Did you when you came up to the Gauteng area, have any political affiliations?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, not at that stage.