Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1977-08-07

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say?

INTERPRETER: He hit this Sbongeni across the face.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say that the people of the house, what did they do?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: The people in the house tried to quell the argument, they came in-between us and that's when I went out together with Sbongeni Sene and he said to me he was tired because I was making him my punch bag.  We fought outside the house, I hit him and the people in the house got out of the house and came to intervene.  All of them were now attacking me and there were police as well in that house, the ZP Kwa Zulu Police and they actually wanted to assault me.  Upon realising that they wanted to hit me I ran to my place, I took my gun.  When I took my gun I did not aim to shoot at anyone, I was just taking my gun.  I was also shot during that incident when the police wanted to injure me.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) you, what did you do with your gun?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: If I remember well, I don't know whether I was giving him the gun or I was shooting him.  I was very disturbed during that day and I don't remember some of the details well.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) you said that you had a lot of drinks and you were actually drunk, isn't that the position.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that, he didn't say he was very drunk, all he said was that he was at a shebeen and he was involved in this fight with this man.  Then he goes home, he wasn't so drunk because he went home and went and fetched his gun, isn't that so?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you came back with your gun all of a sudden now you can't remember whether you actually shot him.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: When I came back, Bheki said these words that will never be erased from my mind.  Bheki said to me Vusi, you are very drunk, give me the gun.  I did not want to give him the gun and he said again Vusi, give the gun to me because you are very drunk and you should go and sleep.  If you do not want to give me the gun just shoot me and my mind went into a blank at that stage, I don't know what happened.  He was shot, I think I shot him and he died.  The police shot me and I got arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, they were.

ADV SANDI: Did the police see the gun you had on you before you shot ...(intervention)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, they did.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I went into a blank, I only came to and I realised that I had been injured and when I went to the police, as I was still running towards them I heard some gunfire and I turned away and I fell along the road.  The police came and arrested me, they also assaulted me and they asked my as to why I had killed Bheki because they were also shocked.

MR SHEMBE: Did you mention to the police that at one stage you suspected him of having a double agenda or double standard?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(not audible)

MR SHEMBE: ...(not audible) that he didn't, if I can put it in Zulu (Maklambele) double standards.  You said Mr Hlengwa, it was an accident the killing of Bheki Zwane, you cannot even explain it.  My question is in order for us to be clear, did you also mention that to the police that at one stage you suspected him that he might be selling you to the issue of the death of Masulele Makanja as you have previously said?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I never explained that to the police, I just told them that I killed him and that I was prepared to be arrested and I was prepared to die.  They didn't ask me anything further as well.

MR SHEMBE: Is it correct now that you are applying for amnesty in respect of the death of Bheki because his death was politically motivated?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, I have come to ask for amnesty but what I wanted to stress is that my condolences do go out to the families or the relatives of the deceased as well as their families because I really do regret the way in which Masulele died.  I do understand that if that could happen to my family, I would also be as distraught as the families of the deceased.
	I still feel very sad, even today and I would ask to see the parents of Masulele.  I would like to speak to them personally and voice my feelings to them.  I don't have enough words to express the way I feel because Masulele's death was because of the problems that we were encountering with the UDF.  
	Had it not been for political differences or for political intolerance, he would not have died in such a manner.  I can blame it on politics but I do not say that I'm absolving myself from the instance, I am directly involved and I deeply regret what happened.  I still feel very sad, even today.
	I do realise that within our own political organisation, we do not know how to conduct ourselves, we lacked proper leaders who had to guide us and tell us as to how we should exercise political tolerance.  So at some stage we acted in a manner that could be regarded as purely criminal of which we regret.  I personally do regret it now.  Even MG Buthelezi and Mandela would not be attacking each other and I don't know why it happened to us, I think we lacked proper leaders to guide us as to how to exercise political tolerance and how we should conduct ourselves as members of different political groups.
	And I do really ask for amnesty.  I also want to say to Simiso that I regret that he got injured.  I've never had an altercation with him, we never had an argument, we never had a fight, I did not know why I actually injured him.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible)  a charge also that you were convicted of, of possession of the unlicensed firearm, how did you obtain this firearm that you caused these two murders with.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I don't recall some of the things but I'm just trying to trigger my memory.  That is true, I was arrested for possessing an illegal firearm.  They got the firearm where I was staying and they arrested me.  It was later on discovered that it was something resembling a gun because it was self-made because when it was sent for ballistic tests, they discovered that it was useless.

ADV DE JAGER: No, you had two firearms and the one wasn't useless because it killed people.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, that is true.

ADV DE JAGER: Your Counsel asked you where did you get these firearms so tell us where did you get it, who gave it to you, did you buy it and if you bought it, from whom did you buy it?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I bought the gun from Tulani Nzama - he was staying at Mkazeni.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you buy that gun?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Immediately after I had been released from detention, I bought the gun.

ADV SANDI: How much did you pay for the gun?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: One hundred and fifty rand.  I paid one hundred and twenty five rand but the gun was going for one hundred and fifty.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will take an adjournment for fifteen minutes at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The applicant would like to make a submission as far as Counsel is concerned the death of Mr Zwane ...(inaudible)one, three, four, five and six ...(inaudible) amnesty on count two.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions you wish to put to him?

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions I'd like to put to the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEMBE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, to you knowledge are there any members who are related to his victims who may ...

MR BRINK: Yes, ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR BRINK: Mr Makanja is here, that's the father of deceased.  I did have a word with other people next of kin, relatives and so on and the information given to me by the interpreter was that they neither support nor oppose the amnesty applications but they just want to hear the truth come out.