Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I have never rested since the commission of that crime because I'm aware that people died and some were injured.  The primary aim of lodging this amnesty application was for me to apologise to those people and explain to them that I did not really have intentions to harm them, but it was because of the situation or circumstances that we lived under at the time and things did not go according to the plan, so I take this opportunity to ask for forgiveness from them, even though I did not fire the gun directly, but I was responsible for the fact that I approached these criminals and I was the primary person in this mission.  I extend that apology, particularly to Mrs Botha who lost her husband. I am not really concerned about my freedom, I have spent some time in prison and I still wouldn't mind to spend more time in prison.  It's not the most important thing to be free, but what is of more importance is to ask for forgiveness for the people who were injured and those who lost their loved ones in that attack.

MS LOONAT: I have no further questions, Your Honour, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

MS DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I don't know - can I please clarify something before I start with my cross-examination?  Did I mention that there's a Mr Reed as well, when you asked me the names of all the victims?

UNKNOWN: No, you didn't.

MS DE KLERK: Please can I include Mr Reed as a victim as well please?

UNKNOWN: What are his initials, just for the record?

MS DE KLERK: All I have, his name is spelled Reed, but I don't have his...  Apparently it's R, for Robert Reed.  I did consult with Mr Reed personally and Mr Reed advised me that he didn't consider himself as a victim, however he wished to oppose the application for amnesty.

MS DE KLERK: Mr Mahambane, did you at any time during the criminal trial, advise anyone that your role that you played in the robbery was politically motivated?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

MS DE KLERK: Can I ask you why?  Did you not feel that it was necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms de Klerk, my experience was that the judges of the day regarded it as aggravation.

MS DE KLERK: I understand that but in some of the applications that I've moved for amnesty, on occasion my applicant had actually advised them and there was reference in the Judgement to, although it was disregarded, that this wasn't done.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that.  Proceed.

MS DE KLERK: Would you like to answer the question please?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I don't think there would be anyone who would believe that story.  That would be taken as plain robbery, but I knew inside of me that the intention of this robbery was politically motivated.  They would not take me seriously if I would turn this bank robbery into something that was politically motivated.  They would think that I'm insane.

MS DE KLERK: Who is Zitho Ncumalo?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That is Mandla.

MS DE KLERK: Is it correct, I understand from your evidence, okay, is it correct that accused number 3 joined you later at Mandla's home?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I don't know that.  Will you please repeat the question, maybe I do not understand?

MS DE KLERK: Is it correct that accused number three in the trial met you at Mandla's home?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I know nothing about that.

MS DE KLERK: Will the Panel please bear with me, I'm trying to find the ...  Okay, we'll come back to that when I get to it.  You've said that at the meetings that were held, you discussed various ways that you'd be able to raise funds and one of the ways was where you'd steal military vehicles, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS DE KLERK: But you made no mention of a bank robber in order to obtain these funds, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That came later on in the 90's because it became apparent because there was no other way to raise funds.  We started with our meetings from 1985, 1986, up to 1987 but later in the 90's we came up with this idea of robbing the banks.

MS DE KLERK: So was it only this one particular bank that you aimed to rob and no other bank?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, there was no other bank.

MS DE KLERK: So all the while, you must correct me if I'm wrong, from 1985 right up until 1990, even though you were having meetings and you were discussing means of raising funds, you didn't take any action towards - other than the two that you've mentioned to us - you didn't fulfil any other acts to raise funds?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: There was no other action that was taken except for those.

MS DE KLERK: You said earlier on in your evidence that you were going to see the motor vehicle, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, although that never happened, but that was our intention and that was also part of discussion in our meetings.

MS DE KLERK: So in your evidence, you've also told us that Mandla instructed you to get two other accomplices to help you, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS DE KLERK: And it was put to you by the Panel that there were actually more than just three of you, there were actually four of you, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: At first there were three of us, but we had no driver and I had to organise someone to drive the car.

MS DE KLERK: And Themba, sorry, was that accused number one that drove the car?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

MS DE KLERK: But who drove the vehicle?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Themba.  His name is also Themba, but he was never arrested.

MS DE KLERK: So you did make a statement, a plea of guilty, in respect of the charges that were brought against you, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I pleaded guilty in Court.

MS DE KLERK: And in your plea of guilty, you've omitted to involved Themba in the whole robbery as well, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is true.

MS DE KLERK: And in your plea of guilty, you've also associated yourself with accused number one and accused number three in the actual robbery, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Will you please repeat the question?

MS DE KLERK: In your plea that was tendered by you, you pleaded guilty to the robbery as well as the murder of Mr Walters in respect of your relationship with accused number 3 and accused number 1, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS DE KLERK: And is it also correct that at no stage you ever mentioned that this was politically motivated or that the objective was because of the furtherance of your political organisation, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I did not mention that to my co-accused.

MS DE KLERK: I know that.  You told us in your evidence that you didn't mention it to your co-accused, but what I'm suggesting to you is that you also didn't tell it to the Judge as well.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The Judge wouldn't believe me because I was charged for bank robbery and I was going to be dismissed because they couldn't reconcile the two.  Any person who was there was going to dismiss that statement that the robbery was politically motivated.

MS DE KLERK: Who represented you at the trial?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot remember, but he was coming from the Legal Aid.  I cannot remember the surname.  He was coming from the Legal Aid Board.

MS DE KLERK: So did the ANC not pay for your legal representation at your trial?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot say so, but I do not remember any payment being made.

MS DE KLERK: And did you advise your legal representative about your political motives and your political objectives?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I did not mention that to him.

MS DE KLERK: In respect of Mrs Walters, who is the wife of Derek Walters, are you aware of the fact that Mrs Walters has - well is since a widow and that she now has to go through the rest of her life without her husband and dealing with the trauma of seeing her husband being murdered?