Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

MR PATEL: I think before calling the next applicant maybe if I could deal with the application of Mr J.J. Mabena who is applicant number 8 before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just give us load down before you do so.  Have you worked out the possible anomaly of applying for a blanket amnesty as opposed to certain issues?

MR PATEL: Yes, what my instructions are is to apply for a postponement of his matter on the following basis - that's if I can just outline to the Committee that Mr Mndebele's application was included in this lot simply because although involvement in the Ermelo situation was somewhat peripheral, it was simply to give a broader, fuller disclosure of all events despite the fact that he might have been peripherally involved.  As I understand the situation with regard to the blanket amnesty, I understand that a number of the higher people, the people higher up in the ANC have applied for sort of blanket amnesties and that at one stage the Amnesty Committee did in fact grant such an application.  That was I presume some sort of review took place by the Commission itself and it was set aside and those applications still have to be considered.

CHAIRPERSON: On the basis of course that it's going to be specific acts.  How that's going to happen I think is going to be a novel issue, I don't know how they're going to do it.  It's all very well saying that the act doesn't make provision for a blanket amnesty but frankly I think cognisance must be given to the fact that while approval must have been given for certain acts, a lot of discretion is given to the operatives and approved of afterwards maybe or whatever but that scene has to play itself out still, I don't know how that's going to work and that's why I said I don't readily agree with that decision myself but I thought that we needed to raise it because there would obviously be arguments against it at the end of the day.  Maybe a postponement is the appropriate thing to do although I don't know how this whole problem is going to be solved but I leave that in your hands or whoever is going to do it.

MR PATEL: You see as you correctly point out Mr Chairman, that scene has to be played out.  Mr Mabena falls directly into that category of people.  In the result his application should properly be dealt with when those people's applications are dealt with and how they solve it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let them do that, you may be involved in it I don't know but maybe you're right, maybe this application must be lumped to that one there.

MR PATEL: That would be our submission and we would submit that there's not prejudice to any of the parties here.  If any of them are effected by what he's going to say they will obviously be notified and they can be present to oppose the application in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, what we're prepared to do is to postpone that particular application.  We will certainly from the panel's side indicate to those who set up the records and who are charged with lumping different matters together to include this one in any similar application that has still going to be heard.  I think it would be prudent also if you would, on your brief cover maybe, indicate to your attorney that he or she should also liaise with the TRC head office in respect of this matter.  Remind them what we're doing now and not to allow them to forget that when those high profiled people's application is heard that Mr Mabena's must be included.  I think you must pay particular attention to the fact that it may cost a bit of more money, he may have to go to Cape Town or wherever.  Such a high profile thing I don't think it's going to be heard in a place like Ermelo but I think that goes with the territory I suppose, it can't be helped.  Are there any objections to the postponement of that matter?

MR PATEL: No objections.

CHAIRPERSON: That particular application is then postponed c.n.a.d.a for it to be rerolled in the appropriate manner.

MR PATEL: As the Committee pleases.  The next applicant that we wish to call to the stand is Mr David Elvis Majola.  Whilst he's on his way may I say that it appears that part of a statement which formed part and parcel of his application form was not included in the bundle.  I'm advised by Mr Mapoma that that statement has now been made available to everybody including the Committee.  Just for the sake of completeness I think it's probably best to number those two pages as 157(a) and 157(b) which is the way it would fit in, into the Volume, the first bundle.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, maybe I have to explain the circumstances pertaining to this particular statement.  In fact this statement was handed in by the applicant together with the application form and was inadvertently omitted to be part of the bundle, this particular bundle but in the previous bundle when the matter got postponed this statement was part of that bundle.  So for all practical purposes therefore Chairperson, this statement is part of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose anybody else has any objections to the inclusion of it?  Yes it will be included as pages 1, 5, 7 (a) and (b).
   Mr Majola, what language would you prefer to use?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: (sworn states)

MR PATEL: Mr Majola where were you born?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Springs.

MR PATEL: And at what age did you come to Ermelo?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I was two years old.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to hear Mr Patel?  Can you hear?

MR PATEL: I'm not getting the translation.

ADV SANDI: My experience has taught me that one has to avoid putting the documents on top of these things otherwise it throws the volume away.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?

MR PATEL: In terms of the schedule that has been prepared and which appears on page 21 of the bundle you claim amnesty for firstly the murder of Mrs Zini Shongwe in 1991, is that correct?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: You also claim amnesty for the murder of Carlton Maseko in 1991, is that correct?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And you claim amnesty for the attempted murder of an unknown black male also in 1991, is that correct?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Now at the time of the commission of these three offences were you a member of any political party?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Which political party did you belong to at that stage?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR PATEL: At the time in 1991 which political party did you belong to?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I was in the IFP.

MR PATEL: Were you also a member of the gang called the Black Cats?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: In terms of the schedule you also claim amnesty for the attempted murder and damage to property in that you threw two hand grenades in the direction of members of the South African Police and the Black Cats gang.  Do you confirm that?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When would that have happened?  When would you have hurled those two hand grenades at the members of the Black Cats and the SAP?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I think it was 1993 if I still remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you change allegiance?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: In 1992.

MR PATEL: You also claim amnesty for the attempted murder and damage to property when the next applicant still to come, Mr Gitam Mnisi threw a hand grenade in the direction of members of the South African Police is that correct?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And finally you claim amnesty for the illegal possession of two hand grenades?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Now in relation to these offences relating to the hand grenades, at that time were you a member of a political party?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes.

MR PATEL: And which political party did you belong to at that stage?