Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: The actions of the South African Policeto combat the onslaught of the liberation organisations were undertakenin the performance of the duties of the South African Police andformed part of the structure of the SAP and specifically the securitybranch.
 Insofar as subordinates under my command took such action aimedat fighting the war in which we found ourselves and which wasaimed against the actions of liberation movements who were tryingto destabilise the country and trying to overthrow the governmentI am morally obliged to assume responsibility for that, all actionsof my subordinates within the confines of Brigadier Victor's commandwhich I will now deal with.
 In early 1986 I was contacted by Brigadier Victor who was secondin command of the counter insurgency unit.  Due to the structureof the SAP at that stage Brigadier Victor was my senior and Iwould have been compelled to accept orders and instructions fromhim.  He told me that he had called in Captain Jacque Hechterand gave him the instruction, along with his son, this son ofhis was a lieutenant at the time, and stationed at Mamelodi, tobring the riots in Pretoria under control.  It didn't matter howit was done and what was done.  He said that Pretoria was burningand that South Africa was burning.  He said that all necessarysteps should be taken to normalise the situation and bring itunder control.  He further said that if a policeman's house wasattacked immediate steps had to be 
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taken against the person who was responsible for that act.  Sucha person's house would then have to be burnt down as well.  Hisorders were to the effect that when we retaliated we should justgo a step further than the enemy each time.  His instructionsamounted to the security police taking active steps in the struggleagainst terrorists and activists.  What his orders in realityamounted to was that the same methods had to be used and thatthere was in reality an active guerilla war to be waged againstthe ANC, SACP and PAC activists as well as activists from otherliberation organisations.
 Before Brigadier Victor's command the security police acted ina reactionary way only, and this meant that activists responsiblefor offences and other acts aimed at destabilising the countrywere arrested and dealt with in terms of the existing legislation,including security legislation.  At the stage of Brigadier Victor'scommand it was clear that reactionary conduct was not sufficientto stem the tide of riots, violence and destabilisation.  At thatstage a fullscale war was entered upon.  
 In terms of Brigadier Victor's command, from that stage onwardsuse was made of guerilla warfare tactics and a fullscale guerillawar was waged against the liberation organisations.  It was ofa pro-active nature to prevent acts of terror and to neutraliseactivists before they could commit acts of terror rather thanmerely to react to acts of terror.
 I accepted that this instruction by Brigadier Victor had comefrom a higher authority.  I informed Brigadier Victor that I wouldmake staff available to his son and Captain Hechter in order toact in such a manner.  As far as 2A I/...
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I know this same procedure was followed in all the other divisionsof the security police throughout the country.  It's a generallyaccepted way of action and it was never repudiated or addressedby either Head Office, the Commissioner of Police, the State SecurityCouncil, the Cabinet or the government.  As far as I understoodit and I continue to be convinced of this the change to pro-activeaction against the liberation movements was done with the authorisationof the government of the day.  
 All actions under my jurisdiction which happened in this mannerwere taken up in situation reports which were sent through ona daily basis to my head office.  The procedure was that furtherreports with this information would then have been passed on tothe State Security Council.  Events which took place under mycommand in the Security Branch in Pretoria was, therefore, passedonto Head Office and must have been taken up in reports to theState Security Council.  
 I must mention Chair that every morning an information reportwas sent through to Head Office.  Every incident of the previousday was mentioned in this report, such as for instance I maintainedfiles on activists, the same file was kept at the Head Office,if an activist, therefore, was killed on a particular day or hishouse was burnt down, that information would have been passedon to Head Office with a file reference and the instructions,the events and the information would have been discussed at ameeting of all the heads at security head office.  This is theSan Hedrun to which General van der Merwe referred to yesterday.
 I do not believe anyone in my Head Office could have been sonaive as to believe that the ANC were killing and
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 attacking their own people.  They must have known what the truefacts were.
 There were monthly meetings at the Joint Control Centre wherethese incidents were discussed.  At the Joint Control Centre therewere representatives of the SADF, SAP the Education Department,Civil Defence as well as other State institutions.  Minutes ofthe JCC meetings were sent through to the State Security Council. I do not doubt that the actions of my subordinates and the eventswhich took place under my command at the Security Branch, NorthernTransvaal, just have been known by the State Security Council.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier let me just interrupt.  Withregard to the reports which you sent through to the Head Officewith regard to events were you ever during the time of your serviceat the Security Police repudiated by your Head Office in any waywith regards to instructions you gave or events which took placeunder your command?

UNKNOWN: ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was there a particular person to whom youwere handing your reports?

UNKNOWN: The reports were sent by telex to Headquarters. It was only addressed to Compol as we then spoke about our Headquarters,Commissioner of Police, so what they did with that further onI don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I mean yes that might have been so, butwas there a particular contact person, for you?

UNKNOWN: No, no such specific person, I didn't sendmy reports through to any particular person, I simply addressedit to the Commissioner of Police.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You simply addressed them to the Commissionerof Police?
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Were the files, you say you kept files,were these kept in your office?

UNKNOWN: There was a set of these files in my officeand a duplicate set in the Head Office.  Each of these files thenhad a number, the same number at my office and then at Head Office.

JUDGE WILSON: And were these left in your office, youdidn't destroy them?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.  I left the service in 1987. I do not know what happened subsequently.

JUDGE WILSON: When you left you hadn't done anythingto them?

UNKNOWN: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Brigadier who was the representative ofthe South African Police at the Joint Management System?

UNKNOWN: I served on the Joint Control Centre myself,on the management of the Joint Control Centre.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier let us just turn back ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: You say here that at the JCC there wasa SADF, SAP, Education and other representatives where these incidentswere discussed, at the meetings which you attended were theseevents indeed discussed?

UNKNOWN: Yes Chair, every incident in the periodup to a particular meeting was discussed at that meeting.

ADV DE JAGER: Including the incidents for which you arepleading for amnesty?

UNKNOWN: Yes it would have been discussed, to whatextent I cannot quite say.