Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: As far as you are concerned you have notcommitted any murder at all in respect of these people?

COL VENTER: No, I did not commit murder.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you are not asking for amnesty in respectof murder are you?

COL VENTER: No, I did not commit murder.  I was involvedin the abduction but I did not kill them, I did not help to killthem.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: As far as you are concerned you see no needfor amnesty in respect of murder, as far as you are concerned?

COL VENTER: As far as I am concerned there was complicityon my part in their removal and abduction but I was not involvedin their murder, I don't know who killed them, how they were killedand what happened to the bodies, but I am asking that I be excusedfor murder because I was the first person who acted to removethem.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is, as far as you are concerned, thatis the furthest point to which you went, namely to have them abducted,full stop, nothing beyond that?

COL VENTER: No.

JUDGE WILSON: My recollection, and I would like you tocorrect me if I am wrong, is that the Port Elizabeth airport 4Bis/...
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is completely out in the country.

COL VENTER: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: If you drive 15 metres from the entrancegates you are in wild country. There aren't houses there, therearen't shops there, it's just bush.

COL VENTER: Yes as far as I can remember.

JUDGE WILSON: So you could have handed them over there,there was no need for you to go to the beach, to the sea on whatyou have told us?

COL VENTER: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you go and see them in Cradocklater, you had nothing whatsoever to do with them?

COL VENTER: As I have said I agreed with van Zyl (Thespeaker is not speaking into the microphone the Interpreters arestruggling to hear).  I then went there.

JUDGE WILSON: You were in Cradock on business, visitingother security branches, why go to this old police station andsit and have a braai and drink with these people when you hadnothing to do with this case at all?

COL VENTER: Van Zyl told me that when I arrived therethey would take me to where they were being kept and I went tofetch my askaris to meet them there.

JUDGE WILSON: So you went to fetch your askaris, thatwas the only purpose of going there was it?

COL VENTER: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: But you stayed for some time?

COL VENTER: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Were they being questioned because unfortunatelyI've heard several cases where when people are being questionedthe police who were doing the questioning are enjoying a braai,was that happening here?
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COL VENTER: /...
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COL VENTER: No.  I did not interrogate them and I don'tknow whether they were being interrogated.  They were in the vicinitybut there was no interrogation conducted as we normally conductedinterrogations.

JUDGE WILSON: When you say in the vicinity were theyoutside where you were having a braai?

COL VENTER: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you give any reason why they shouldhave been brought out there, why they weren't kept shut up?

COL VENTER: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just ask you, this Lieutenant ColonelHarold Snyman, did you say you knew him?

COL VENTER: No, she asked me whether he was aware ofthe Pepco incident and I said I didn't know, but I know ColonelSnyman from Port Elizabeth, but I can't say whether he was awareof what had happened.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But given his position would you have expectedhim to be aware?  I know you say that you don't know whether hewas, but I am asking you whether given his position you wouldhave expected him to be aware of the detention of these people?

COL VENTER: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What was his position again?

COL VENTER: As far as I can recall he was second in commandof the security branch at the time.  I am not quite sure whathis rank was but I know he was in a managing type of position,controlling position.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe may I ask you, a number of nameshave been referred to, Nieuwoudt, van Rensburg, all of these variouspeople, have they been informed?  Do you know
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whether they are present here or not?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we have attempted to inform thosethat we could inform.  I don't know whether the names that werementioned here today form part of the list, and I am not awareas to whether any one of them is here today, present.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you just have a look at your listand see whether they have been informed because you are obligedto inform them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be done.