Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: After this incident there were other places or one of the places I knew which we could use it as a hiding place for these hours.  So we went to this place, it was the area known as Walazi, it's not far away from this border area of Zastron at the other side of Sterkspruit.  We went to the house of Mangenene, one of the PAC members who was staying in that area.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat the name Mr Dolo?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Mangenene.  We stayed at the place until it was afternoon and then we left the place to our base.  The purpose, as it was a question of safety measures, after we attacked the vehicle, we thought maybe the occupants of the car would go to the police and report the matter so that's why we decided to retreat to this place.

MR LAX: Sorry, when you say then after leaving Mangenene's place, just correct me, that was at Walazi you said?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: From there you went back to your base, was that at Jozannas?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That afternoon?

MR LAX: Yes, but that as your base at Jozanneshoek, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Thanks
ADV. SANDI: What happened to this car that was shot at?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know what happened to it.  I take it it went through to Zastron to Sterkspruit to the town of Sterkspruit.  We learn it later after some days that one of the occupants went to the hospital there at Sterkspruit.
ADV. SANDI: So the bullet hit one of the occupants of the car, is that what you're saying?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes one of the settlers.
ADV. SANDI: How many times did you shoot at this particular vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I shoot at it as it was approaching to our direction and as it is passing through me and when it passed completely me I stopped shooting as I realised that one of or some of the occupants, one of the occupants was an African.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I proceed Mr Chairperson.  "I thereafter reported to my superiors."  Can you tell the Committee, how did you report to your superiors?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As it is a procedure that each and after an operation we have to report to our - those who are in charge of us so in this case too, I did report the matter to my superiors through a written report.  That's how I reported to my superiors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, is there anything you want to - that you have not mentioned to the Committee relating to this incident, you want to add or you want to say to the Committee?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I will say that our struggle was just as our land was usurped by settlers, colonists and we were oppressed as a nation, African Nation by settlers, Europeans and the battle then was drawn between the African oppressed versus the European oppressor, between the African exploited versus European exploiter.  So the struggle then, it was between those two nations, between the Africans versus European settlers who came into this country and coming to this case of so called civilians or whites who were normally known by you as civilians, it is well known after all that in South Africa at that stage even I think it is up to now, that there were no civilian whites in South Africa, it was a matter of force that they have to be trained in order to defend themselves against those so called terrorists.  They were trained at a stage so we were fighting a nation that was armed and we had to defend ourselves, that's how too we formed liberation armies to defend ourselves, to defend the African Nation against the usurpers of our land.  I don't think that will be much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO.
ADV. SANDI: Just one thing Mr Dolo, when you say you reported to your superiors, who is that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: To Comrade Hepe.
ADV. SANDI: Is that Mr - I gather from the documents that I've seen, from previous documents - is that Mr Letlape Mphahlele?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Through you Chairperson, you say you presented a written report, can you remember when you sent that report, or did you hand deliver it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it was the following day that I wrote the report, if I'm sure.

MR LAX: Ja, carry on?  You wrote it the following day, how did you get it to Mr Letlape Mphahlele?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I gave it to another comrade whom I was working with to transport it to Hepe.

MR LAX: Ja, who was that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was known by Phila.

MR LAX: That's the person you took over from, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: So he would have taken it to Umtata where Mphahlele would have been at that time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know where he was at that time so I gave to him to give it to Hepe.

MR LAX: You see in a previous matter you told us that after that operation you phoned Mphahlele?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: After which operation?

MR LAX: The one - the next one - the one that we dealt with next week which happened the day after this one.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: You said in that one that you reported to Mphahlele but you did that by phone on that occasion?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: So where did you phone him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At Umtata.

MR LAX: So he must have been at Umtata.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know.

MR LAX: Well if you phoned him there surely he was there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was not the same day.

MR LAX: I won't waste my time with this nonsense.  Carry on.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Sorry, what are you saying?  I don't know whether I hear you correctly, you say you won't waste your time with this nonsense?

MR LAX: Just carry on with your evidence.  Mr Mphahlele, please keep quiet, this is none of your business, you're not giving evidence.   Please behave yourself, really.

MR MPHAHLELE: You must behave yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: If this continues, I will have no option but to ask that you be removed.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He won't be removed here.

MR LAX: Please continue with your evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, can I just be given a minute just to talk to him?

MR LAX: What is nonsense with all due respect to all of you, if you want me to explain, is the fact that they phoned the man in Umtata, we know he was based in Umtata, we've heard evidence to that effect.  Really, I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the issue, that's all I'm saying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, any questions?

MR MTHEMBU: None Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You had finished with this?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, I've finished with him, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo, just to get it into it's time sequence, this event where you shot at this vehicle, this bakkie, was the 18th November 1992 and the following day was the 19th when you went to the Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road where Mrs Brummer, Mr Tsimani and the other gentleman, the coloured gentleman were killed, is that correct?  In other words this matter occurred the day before the Lady Grey Hershel Sterkspruit matter which we dealt with last week?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Okay yes.

MR PRIOR: Okay and in that matter you said following on a question from the Committee you phoned Mr Letlapa Mphahlele informing him of that matter and your evidence a short while ago was that in this matter you wrote to him the following day, that is the day in which you perpetrated that attack on Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsimani and the other gentlemen?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: By the following day I mean it was early in the morning before we went for this one of Lady Grey Sterkspruit ambush.

MR PRIOR: Yes, so before you left there you wrote your report and gave it to Mr Phila, that's Power or Ace, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I just wanted to get that clear.  Why didn't you phone Mr Mphahlele in Umtata?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I had to go to another operation that's why I didn't have much time to go to town and phone.