Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-04

MR KOOPEDI: Page 7 of the bundle of documents.  He says
"Instructions were given on reconnaissance methods and planning and on the collection of data."
This is the role that he played.  He had no role Chairperson in terms of the reconnaissance that was done in the country.  He gave instructions on how to carry on reconnaissance.  If therefore somebody did not carry out those instructions, he would not know and clearly he would not know whether the units went out of their parameters when they laid the mines, because he was not party to the giving of instructions in terms of saying where they should plant the mines.
	I therefore finally submit, Chairperson, that we do not need these people and we don't need to have them subpoenaed, they will not assist this hearing at all.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener, any reply?

MR WAGENER IN REPLY: Thank you Chairman, two issues only.  The matter referred to by Mr Koopedi was a matter that came before your brother, Judge Potgieter, together with Adv Sandi and Mr Sibanyoni in White River.  The Judgment I have here dated 22 June 2000 in the applications of Gen Nyanda, Gen Choke and a person called Dick Mkhonto.  Now it's clear, Mr Chairman, that the issues that we are debating here today were not raised at all in that matter as he correctly indicated there was no opposition.  That matter seems to me, with great respect, to have been somewhat one-way traffic.
	Regarding the reference to page 7 of your bundle, Mr Chairman, where Mr Kasrils tries to set out his involvement, Mr Chairman, this is not that simple.  My submission to you is that anyone with knowledge of the military, will know that the truth of military intelligence per definition what his role is.  His role is never ever confined to instructing and training operatives how to collect intelligence.  The main function of any military intelligence component, is to receive intelligence, to collect intelligence, to evaluate such intelligence, to do research thereupon and then by way of intelligence reports to brief the operational side of the military on how further actions should take place, based upon, partly based upon such intelligence.  So if the submission here is that that was the only role Mr Kasrils played, if that is what he is saying here, my submission is he's lying and that should be tested.  It can never ever be true.
	Lastly Mr Chairman, whether it should serve any purpose or not in calling these gentlemen to this hearing, I have put to you my arguments why I am of the opinion that it will in fact serve a purpose and I can't take it any further.  It will enable you to make a full decision whether the applicant has complied with Section 20(1)(b).  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any submissions you'd like to make?

MS MTANGA: I'll be brief, Chairperson.  My position is that I do object to the application being made by my learned friend Mr Wagener on the basis that, if the reason for calling the three persons that he would like the Committee to subpoena is to establish whether the three applicants before this Committee acted within the orders of the MK and its Military Headquarters at that time, I would say the submissions made by the ANC did have the situation that we are facing here in mind and did address the situations where civilians were killed in the landmine operations.
	I would like to refer the Committee to page 327, that's paragraph 4, wherein it's stated that Oliver Tambo himself ordered that operations be carried deeper into the country, moving away from the initial position that where these operations were carried out at the areas covering two to four kilometres from the border area, when the operations were taken deeper into the country, the roads that these landmines were to be placed on were at that time acknowledged by the ANC that they were not exclusively used by the military vehicles at that time and therefore it was foreseen at that time that there would have been civilian victims in these kind of explosions.  It is my position, Chairperson and my submission that applications such as the one being made by the three applicants here today where civilians were purely victims to these operations were addressed by the submissions of the ANC and it is therefore not in dispute as to whether, when these operations were carried out, could civilians have been foreseen as victims or not.  That's not in dispute from the ANC's position, so I find it difficult to understand if these three persons are called, what different answer are we expecting from them from the ones given in their submissions?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wagener, if I can give you an - is that all Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: That is all Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you wish to reply to what Ms Mtanga has submitted?

MR WAGENER: Chairman yes.  I must say I find it rather strange and surprising that the representative of the Amnesty Committee adopts this stance.  I would have expected her to be objective in this argument, or even not to enter the flow of this argument, but be that as it may, she decided to do so.  What we do know, Mr Chairman, is that this incident took place right at the outset of this operation, so her reference to the campaign later, later moving, and I assume she's referring to the incidents that took place in the Eastern Transvaal, or the now Mpumalanga, the incidents that were heard in the matter that I just referred you to in White River.

CHAIRPERSON: I do recall Mr Wagener, the third applicant stating that when he came in later, I've forgotten the exact date, it was to go deeper.  When he got arrested and escaped, it was to go deeper, that wasn't only the Eastern Transvaal.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  That was on Christmas Day Mr Chairman, of 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That's right.

MR WAGENER: So that is thirteen months down the line.  I am referring you to what was the position in November 1985, exactly at the outset of this whole landmine campaign, so what Mr Tambo said what should happen or not thirteen months later, my submission to you, is of no consequence and no relevance to my argument here today and I still maintain that these gentlemen can give relevant, directly relevant and important evidence regarding the initial stages of this campaign in order for you to make the correct decision.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni wishes to put something.

MR SIBANYONI: Just to comment on the matter which was heard at White River, Mr Wagener, now that you have mentioned it.  I just want to bring it to the attention, your attention that even in that matter, the people who were victims were innocent civilians, they were travelling in a bakkie and then it was from the main road.  The place where the bomb was placed was on a, what they call in Afrikaans a "twee spoor padjie", which was leading from the main road passing the mountain and then this bakkie we were told that it was travelling to some people who were staying down the mountain.  In other words, I'm just mentioning it in view of your argument that you are putting forward that these people, it would appear they were on a frolic of their own.  I would like to say that the method of putting bombs in some roads leading from the main road, was not unique in this instance even if the Mpumalanga, or in that one which was heard at White River, that was the case as well.