Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I wonder if we could proceed with the next application?  The next applicant is Goodman Nedisi Mbuli on page 65 to 71.  He is present.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have an ID number for us?

MR SHANE: Where's your ID?  ID number Mr Chairman is 740110 6251 08 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbuli what language would you prefer to use?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: No objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you swear that the evidence you're about to give will be the truth and nothing but the truth?  Raise your right hand and say so help me God.

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: (sworn, states)

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman the applicant applies for amnesty for the murder of one Pinpin Ramahesa and also he applies for amnesty for the possession of unlicensed weapons and ammunition.  That is all.
	Mr Chairman I must ask the following to be recorded.  The applicant also in his application applied for amnesty for the murder of Mkula Matulu Mbele.  Now, Mr Chairman, after fully consulting with the applicant, it is quite clear that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't need explanations.  Is he withdrawing those, that application?

MR SHANE: He is withdrawing that Mr Chairman, but if I can just mention the applicant does so reluctantly because he feels that because this killing happened with a community weapon, that in itself should make it a political action, but that is not the case and he withdraws it.  I also mention the family of the deceased, Matulu Mbele, is present, but he's not applying for amnesty, he's withdrawing that application.

CHAIRPERSON: And you do so on his behalf?

MR SHANE: I do so on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: He is fully aware that you are doing so?

MR SHANE: He is fully aware that I am doing so.

CHAIRPERSON: It is so withdrawn.  Carry on.

MR SHANE: Right, when did you join the Penduka Self-Defence Unit?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Ninety.

MR SHANE: And when did you join the ANC?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: In 1990.

MR SHANE: While you were a member of the SDU you used to patrol, and on patrol you used to possess weapons, AK-47's as well as bullets.  Correct?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes.

MR SHANE: And your possession of those weapons was unlawful.  Correct?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes.

MR SHANE: Right.  Now will you explain what happened during June or July of 1993, when you were on patrol with a certain person called Biza.

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: We were patrolling the area.  I suppose it was about five or six.  As we were on duty patrolling Daganyewe found out that Pinpin and a certain lady Maria, but I did not see the lady, they were coming to move some property or some goods, and that was a no-go zone.  After that as I was in possession of AK we jumped and Biza got left behind, and gave me the keys.  I went to stand right next to the house, taking it upon myself that I was going to see and watch as to who was going out and Pinpin was going out with a basket.  As he was already out of the premises, or out of the house, I shot at him twice.

MR SHANE: Now, can you tell what you knew about Pinpin, why did you shoot him?  What was the reason?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: This Pinpin was always in the company of Khumalo.  He was the one administering the activities of the community in the area, and will go and give the report to Khumalo as to what he discovered.  I will say in simple language, he was a spy of Khumalo.

MR SHANE: When you say Khumalo, are you talking about the Khumalo gang which was mentioned before to this Committee, headed by a certain priest?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes, very true.  I'm referred to that very one Khumalo gang.

MR SHANE: And were you certain that Pinpin was a member of that gang?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes.  I am certain of that.  I used to see him as well and oftentimes than not he will be amongst the gang and he will always be part of the gang that would have terrorised the area.

MR SHANE: What did you do after you fired the shots at Pinpin?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Subsequent to that I went back and gave Biza the neighbour, and we left, and fled.  He was lying down there on the ground, dead.

MR SHANE: ...(inaudible) was dead.

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: I saw the Caspir the one that will fetch the corpses, and it also came to the scene.

MR SHANE: And did it take his body away?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes, it did.

MR SHANE: Did you have any choice but to kill this person?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: I had no choice whatsoever.  It was common knowledge and public knowledge that the said people with such behaviour and habits should be killed because they were terrorising the community together with his gang, Khumalo gang that is.

MR SHANE: Did you know this person from before, Pinpin Ramahesa?  Was he a friend of yours?  Did you know him?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: He was a well known figure in the community.  I also knew him, but he was not my friend as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you yourself know if he belonged to a political party?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes, I knew that Pinpin was a member of Khumalo gang.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) political party.

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: The IFP.

MR SHANE: How do you feel now having killed Pinpin?  Do you got anything to say about that fact that you killed him?  Do you feel sorry about it?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: I had no other way but to execute this plan because of the situation that prevailed at the time.  But as for now, I have this load of remorse, this is why I appear before the Commission.

MR SHANE: That is his evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV STEENKAMP: I've got no questions thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: I'm just not too sure as to where exactly you found Pinpin.  Was he in a no-go area, or was he in your area? - the day you shot him.

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: He was at his house.

ADV GCABASHE: Was that in a no-go area?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: How did you manage to go into a no-go area, shoot Pinpin and come out of it without any difficulty at all.  Just explain those circumstances to me.

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: This way we use, or we were patrolling at the time.  It was in our area, it was our area, and they had fled and they had come back to get their clothes or their property.

ADV GCABASHE: Had you been lying in wait for him, or did you simply come across him by sheer chance?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: It was sheer luck that we encountered this.

ADV GCABASHE: And how long before this incident did Thabo Sibeko, your commander give the order that Pinpin should be killed?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: This was common knowledge that such people who are patrolling together with Khumalo should be killed.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you able to give me an idea as to how long before the incident this general order would have been given to all the SDU members?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: I'm not quite sure as to when in relation to the incident.

ADV GCABASHE: And one last aspect.  You have said that Pinpin was an informer.  Now I understand you to mean that he was informing on your activities as SDU members.  Am I right?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: He was not only informing on us, but the entire community, so that anyone who will be doing something opposing Khumalo, or something Khumalo does not or did not like, then he would go and report such to Khumalo.

ADV GCABASHE: Now how did you know that he was passing this information on to Khumalo?  Just what were your sources?

GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI: The thing is we knew that they live together, they reside together and most of the time they're in each other's company, and some of the incidents will take part with the entire Khumalo group.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR SHANE: That is all from this applicant Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED