Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: It has been brought to our attention that there is intimidation that is going on.  Some of the applicants have complained of being abused, some of the victims have been complaining of having been threatened.  I want to make it clear that none of this will be tolerated.
	Whilst we do understand the background to this hearing in particular, that people lost their lives, their property, but let us not give anyone the right to intimidate anyone or to hurl any abuse at anyone.  We have requested the police to take up positions within the hall where they will be able to identify those people who are interrupting the proceedings and those who are intimidating or abusing others.
	If any person - and let me make it clear, regardless of who that person is, is found abusing anyone within this hall or intimidating anyone, that person will be removed from the hall immediately and everyone of those persons will be removed from the hall, and apart from being removed from the hall, the necessary steps will be taken against that person.  I therefore urge everyone of you to co-operate.
	The proceedings have been jogging for a long time and therefore I urge each one of you to please co-operate so that we can proceed with these hearings to finality.  I also hope that your respective legal representatives have conveyed to you what I am now repeating to you.  Thank you.
	Mr Baloyi, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Pretorius.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Baloyi, you've been living in Boipatong for forty five years.  From your testimony it sounds as if you are one of the community leaders, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: And you're also a leader in your church.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: To which political party do you belong, Mr Baloyi, if any?  I'll repeat the question.  To which political party do you belong, if any?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was a leader of Shangaans in the Vaal area at the time when the Gazankulu homelands was in existence, from this area, including Sebokeng.

MS PRETORIUS: What I'm referring to is say from 1990.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was not politically affiliated to any political organisation.

MS PRETORIUS: Are you aware of it that the IFP was chased out of Boipatong?  People belonging to the IFP or who were supporters of the IFP had trouble living in Boipatong.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It did appear as if there was conflict, but I cannot speak on their behalf.

MS PRETORIUS: But as a community leader at least you knew what was going on in Boipatong, is that true?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was clear that there were conflicts.  There was conflict between the ANC and the IFP.

MS PRETORIUS: And this conflict resulted that the IFP members and supporters could not live safely in Boipatong, is that true?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I think so, but it did not start there.  That was did not start there.

MS PRETORIUS: What do you mean by that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I mean that there was this conflict because they felt that the ANC should not be dominant in the area, they wanted to be the dominant party.

MS PRETORIUS: But the question is, that as a result of this conflict the IFP members and supporters could not live safely in Boipatong, is that so?  It's easy, you must just tell us yes or no.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: From 1990 until the night of the attack, were any of the IFP members that you are aware of, necklaced in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not hear of anybody being necklaced.  The only person that I know of was one who was burnt ...(intervention)

MS PRETORIUS: That's what I mean, I'm sorry.  You did hear of a person being burnt?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did hear of that.

MS PRETORIUS: And that person was an IFP member or a supporter.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not certain whether he was a member or supporter, but yes, he was in the IFP fold.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know of any houses that were burnt down in Boipatong, that belonged to IFP members or IFP supporters?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The one that I'm well aware of is the one belonging to Mtwana Zulu, but there were other houses that were burnt, the house belonging to people who were just supporters of the IFP, but not full members.

MS PRETORIUS: So their houses were burnt.  Do you know how many?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not keep count, unless if I were to check from the book.

MS PRETORIUS: So it was quite a lot?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Quite a few but not too many.

MS PRETORIUS: The trenches that were dug in the street, which you helped to dig, was that then - the barricades that were erected, was that also to keep out IFP members from Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Chairperson, I'm not sure if the evidence was that Mr Baloyi actually dug trenches.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the question was the trenches that were dug.

MS PRETORIUS: I did say which he helped to dig.  I thought he said so yesterday.  I'll retract it and I'll rephrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, you did testify that, as far as I recall, yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, he did.  These trenches were also dug to keep out not only the police, but also the IFP members, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: IFP people did not use Koyocos, they walked on foot.  Those trenches were dug to prevent police vehicles from moving about in the area.

MS PRETORIUS: And the comrades, were they appointed to keep out IFP members from the area?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, they were not instructed to do so.  Even now they are able to walk there freely, nothing happens to them.

MS PRETORIUS: I know now they are able to walk there freely, I know because we've been there, I've seen IFP members in Boipatong, but I'm speaking about the year or the two years prior to that attack.  Because there has been evidence to this Committee by the attackers, that it was not safe to go to Boipatong for them at all.  They could not go and buy food there, their children couldn't go to school there.  Would you agree or what would you say about that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The children were able to go to school.  It was them who were fighting the people of Boipatong, and that is why they were afraid of entering the township.

MS PRETORIUS: So the comrades saw to it that the IFP members did not come into the township, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We used to live amongst them, I mean IFP members in the township.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Baloyi, I don't think you're answering the question, the question is, that after 1990, 1991 up to 1992 until the attack when the houses were burnt and people were, the one person that you know of was burnt, it was not safe for IFP members to come to Boipatong and the comrades were there to keep them out.  Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not agree with that.

MS PRETORIUS: So they could come freely to Boipatong, IFP members and supporters?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Those people who were afraid of coming to the township were those who were involved in the fighting with the residents of Boipatong.  Nobody prevented or stopped them from coming into the township.

MS PRETORIUS: Why was Mtwana Zulu's house burnt?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He had a fight with somebody else.  Nobody would have just gone out to burn his house for nothing.  Mtwana was a respectable person, he did not trouble anyone.

MS PRETORIUS: But he was a leader of the IFP.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, he was, but he did not trouble anyone.

MS PRETORIUS: And that could be the reason for burning his house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He is the one who can explain that.  Maybe he had a fight with someone on Majola Street.