Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You can all sit down.  Thank you.  Advocate Dumisa Ntsebeza is the one who is going to lead the proceedings.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Reverend.  Our Reverend has already given us a short briefing of what is going to take place and what you are going to present before us.  All this would be highlighted because you are going to tell us about all the prosecution that you experienced and you would tell us that who was responsible for all those.  We know that it was the authorities, but the most crucial issue is that everybody was responsible because it was the people who were related to you who were responsible for the prosecution.  They facilitated and took part in your persecution.
 I am certain that most of the presentation will be given by one of your spokespersons and then the others would support here and there.  I think Chief Mafilane has nominated his brother Chief Dalagube so that he should be a spokesperson.  Mr Dalagube, I would like you to give us a short background about yourself and your family, what role are you playing there, who is the person who is a leader there at Mputi.  Also, you please tell us when did you start to experience all the problems that you are going to present today.  Especially if you begin from 1968.  We do not want 
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you to delve much in those experiences because we would like to save time, but I think it starts from 1960 to 1993.  Could you please give us that background.

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: My names are Kulile, that is my traditional name, I am Anderson, that one is my christian name and then I am Dalagube and this is well know to the Thembus.  I was born at Baziya in the location known as Mputi.  Chief Zwelibhangile and Nokessi Joyi are my parents.  I attended school at my primary school at Baziya and then my higher standard of education I went to Ohlange Institute, it was in Natal That school was founded by Dr John Langalibalele Dube.  He was known as Mafukuzela who is just like lightning.  He was also a founder of the African National Congress in 1912.  After succeeding Mighlababungeni and during the union of South Africa he was one of the Chiefs.  Amongst them there were Chief Lembeke Meshiyeni and all others.
 When I was still there the Principal of that school, D G S Imtinkula, who had qualifications, Master of Arts in South Africa and he obtained one of his MA's at Yale.  Then he opened opportunities for Chief Albert Luthuli so that he should be a lecturer in that institution and the most important subject that he was teaching, it was Political Science.  That is where I got my influence from these gentlemen and that was my politically background.  
 If I can be brief, I returned back to my place of origin.  It was in 1962 and the Chief of the Tembus succeeded.  It was only a few years when he was on the throne and the problems started.  There was a Commission of Enquiry which was led by the Under Secretary C B Young and he was coming from Pretoria.  The problem and the claim was over the land of the Thembu's.  Chief Jongihlanga was the 
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one who was leading in this area.  He was also responsible and there were seven areas which were under his Jurisdiction.  It was said two should be under the jurisdiction of Matanzima Belonga.  It was up and down.  There were problems, there was a struggle, there was conflict, there was resistance and then there was another Chief.  There was forceful participation of some of the other people.  Some of the Chiefs were expelled from the land.  They were taken and removed to the north of South Africa.  Chief Kalamfeni Joyi, Chief Bangilizwe, Chief Balisela Nkosiyane, Magregor Mkolobane were amongst those who were removed forcefully.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Chief Bangilizwe Joyi, is he the one who is just next to you?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, he is.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Who is Chief Palamvena, what is his position now?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: You will hear what I am still going to say, but he is late now.  He was shot and gunned down at Mbashe.  He was from the Robben Island at the time.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So you say it was in 1958 when they were removed forcefully and expelled from this area?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: When did they come back?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: They came back in 1964.  They were from the exile from Lesotho.  Then they were all picked up and the State President was amongst them.  O R Tambo was also amongst them.  You can proceed.

ADV NTSEBEZA: When were you arrested?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: I was arrested in 1960.  It was during the meeting which was held at Mabalulu.  I was the Chairperson UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
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of that meeting.  The police saw that we have gathered, but they were unable to approach us because they could not.  Then they knew that they dared not approach us.  So they had to stay and lay ambush in the south.  They were the police from the Transkei except those from Engcobo.  Then we held our meeting without any problems, but I was arrested thereafter.  There were allegations that I was the one who was Chairing the meeting, but because it was at the Thembuland there were no people to support that evidence.  Then the three men were forced to go to Kanta so that they can withdraw the case.  Then it was not long and then I was acquitted.  
 Thereafter a State of Emergency was declared here in the Transkei.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Mr Dalagube, which year was that and what was this State of Emergency?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: It was reported that the problems were at Mabalulu and at Nosahill.  Then it was said there was, there should be a curfew because there was unrest.  There were men who were supposed to be arrested.  On the 14th of December at one I was arrested.  I thought I was the only one who was arrested, but on our way I met one of the Chiefs Lufefeni who was originating from Baziya.  Then we went to Choocha, Mr Honono, and then we were all charged there.  The following day, because I was not familiar with this area, I could see that I was with R S Kanka.  We could see also D D Koyana.  He was also going up and down.  Nkoko was also amongst these who were patrolling.
 You could also see all the educated and enlightened people who were also arrested.  Those were teachers during the period of the hated Bantu education and then these were 
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arrested because they refused and resisted to give education which was not acceptable to most of the people because they believed that that was not good education.  Then we said we have got people who were going along with us.  We then went to the Chiefs who were on the neutral.  We also informed them that we do not accept that they remain neutral.  It seems as if they are collaborating with our enemies.  Even the TDC, we said they should resign from that organisation.  My father was the first to resign.  He did not contest the seat during the elections.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Mr Dalagube, I know that we can take the whole week.  We enjoy what you are telling us now and you are trying to give us and drawing up a good picture of what happened at the time, but we would like to be brief.  Please concentrate to all that took place especially the tortures which you experienced.  Please do not be offended.  Okay, let us go back to the time when you were released, when you were arrested for the State of Emergency.  I think it was in 1960.

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, it was in 1960.

ADV NTSEBEZA: You were arrested again in 1963.  Is that not so?  It was during that time of the Imbasha issue.