Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: And also that we should send other people to go and be trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say outside, meaning outside the country?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Out of the country, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That was not appropriately translated.

MR LAX: Yes, where outside the country?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: As from 1990 to 1992, all these people who were escaping from the country, I was the one who was responsible to send them to Uganda.   As from 1992 to 1993, I was the one who was responsible in grouping the Mandela dispatchment, these were the men I used to send outside for regular training, not guerrilla warfare.  This was my task.

MR LAX: Did you say regular or irregular training?

CHAIRPERSON: Regular.  Regular.

MR LAX: Sorry, because it was translated as irregular.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Regular army.   Guerrilla warfare is different from the Guerrilla army.

MR LAX: That training was in Uganda you have said?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it was in Uganda.

MR LAX: And you mentioned that your MK people were killing policemen and they were killing your people, what other policemen were you killing through your unit?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, we were killing policemen, but I was not particularly involved, but others were in my unit, and I don't know whether I should implicate them and talk about their incident.

MR LAX: You don't have to implicate other people, I want to know which policemen that you know about as commander of your unit?  As commander you would have made reports about those killings, not so?  I beg your pardon?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is so.

MR LAX: So?  Tell us which other people were killed under your command?  Police people?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: What I said was that the people who were under my command, were involved in killing other policemen and this was common among us MK, we were killing police because they were killing us as well.  This is what I explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that the unit of a structure that you commanded, or the area over which you commanded as an overall commander, to your knowledge you are unable to say who amongst the people who worked under your command, you are unable to say who killed a policeman, but you are able to say that generally MK as the armed wing of the ANC was involved in the killing of policemen?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting by your response, because I am unable to get clarity on what you are saying by the many responses you have given us in relation to the issue of whether to your knowledge, you know of a number or names of policemen who were killed by members under your command.  Do you know of policemen who were killed by members under your command?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, I don't know their names, but as a commander, I was told and we were also told that in different places in South Africa, there were police who had been killed by MK and also that supporters and MK members were being killed by SAP or police.   But then I was not told that so and so killed so and so, except one incident that I know is when Sweet Sambo was killed in my area.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if any policeman was killed by members within your structure?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I don't quite understand the question, would you please repeat it for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if any policeman was killed by a member of MK within your structure, within your unit?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You are only able to say that the MK as the armed wing of the ANC, was waging a struggle against the government and that the policemen were targeted for killing by the ANC and by this you are making a general statement?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Would you please repeat that for me.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that - maybe I should find out the other question.  Are you in a position to give this Committee any information on any policeman who was killed by a member of MK in the area under which you commanded?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.   In Komatipoort there was never a trained MK who was killed by police.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking about a person who was an MK, but killed by the police, I am asking if any member of the MK in Umkomaas and that is the area that you commanded, if any policeman was ever killed by a member within your command.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I don't quite understand the question because I think if I understand you Chairperson, is that you are saying to me if I know any MK members who had shot police.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you if you know the name of a police who was shot by members of your MK unit.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you understand the interpretation or you don't understand English?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I think you are right, I do understand you in Zulu, but I don't understand Ms Interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR LAX: I wasn't quite sure what your final answers were there, I just want to check something for my own benefit, you may have answered this already.   Are you saying that there were in fact policemen killed by members of your unit, but you don't know their names or are you saying there were no policemen killed by members of your unit?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I was not referring to my unit.  I was not saying that one of the members of my unit killed a certain police, but what I was talking about, I was referring to general MK in South Africa, that they were killing police.  Also we, members of MK, when we saw police, we saw enemies, people who were supposed to be killed.

MR LAX: Yes, restrict yourself to the issue I am asking you about, don't go into generalities now.   Your unit did not kill any policemen that you know of?  People under your specific command in Umkomaas area, yes or no?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, no one.

MR LAX: Well, then why when I asked you about taking reports and reporting on further, you agreed with that?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Reports which came to me, were reports where people were reporting about the situation in the area, that in a certain area, this is what was happening and rallies were going to be held in this and this area, and other rallies at that time.

MR LAX: Mr Sambo, the context of my question was very simple.  The context of my question was that as a commander, you would have known that policemen were killed, because you would have had to make reports about that, and your answer was yes, that is so?  We weren't talking about meetings, we weren't talking about other activities, we were talking about the killing of policemen in your area by your members of your unit, and you were concerned about implicating people and I specifically avoided you implicating any individuals, you were worried about people being killed and you said yes, reports were made and you did in fact report upwards on that issue.   So we are not confused about other things here, not so?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I do understand you.

MR LAX: So if you made those reports and reports of that nature were made to you, how can you then tell us that nobody was killed in your area, by your people?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: In Ngomazi I never got any report about police being killed, but this was our intention to do so.

MR LAX: Now Mr O'Farrell said the people who attacked him, amongst that group were elderly people.  Is that correct, is he telling the truth?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: Why did you tell us previously that that wasn't so, that it was a lie?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Fair enough, you don't have to answer the question.
	Who else was at your home on that day, when they arrived at your yard, at your premises?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: My wife.

MR LAX: Was anyone else at the premises on that day?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, no-one else.

MR LAX: And you don't know where your brother came from?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I first saw him when I was going to hospital.