Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

J P VAN DEN BERG: The evening of the 9th myself and three Defence Force members went back to the same observation points.  We heard Kobus Fourie saying on the radio that Matthews had arrived at the border fence and had stopped, gone through to the fountain.  We had seen movement at the fountain.  It was very close to half past eight that morning when Kobus Fourie said that they were crossing the border and that Matthews and his people were entering a Kombi.

UNKNOWN: Now at that stage was the planning still the same; namely, that the people would be allowed to drive as far as Pietersburg and that there would be a rest there or had the planning changed?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, the planning was different.  The planning was now that they would be arrested next to the road.

UNKNOWN: What was the reason for this change of plan?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Because these people were to be heavily armed and because there were six of them and no longer three.

UNKNOWN: Can you recall that Matthews told you at some stage that he had learnt that the group would split up into three groups of two each and that one group would go to Phalaborwa, another group to Johannesburg and the third group to Pietersburg, and what they were supposed to do in those areas?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I don't know whether it was before or after the event. I know that he said that the police station and Checkers or OK Bazaars and so forth, here in Pietersburg, they were involved.

UNKNOWN: So there were places that were targeted in Pietersburg?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, and Johannesburg was also mentioned.

UNKNOWN: I am sorry, I interrupted you. We have heard that Kobus Fourie told you that the people had already crossed the river, that they were in the Kombi. What happened from then onwards, what did you do?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I stayed at my observation point and a couple of minutes after nine o'clock, we heard shots. First "doef, doef, doef", and then a whole volley of shots. But really, many, many shots.

UNKNOWN: And was that in the direction of where this incident took place?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, I was about 12 kilometres away from this.

UNKNOWN: Now is it correct that if you go from Kruitfontein or drive through Kruitfontein down to the river, you first have to drive through Eendvogelpan, before you get to the Breslau or Alldays road?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: And you weren't present during the incident?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you speak to each other afterwards about what had happened at the incident?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Was there any mention made of Tokkie Fuchs having shot somebody who were lying on the ground?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, that was never mentioned.

UNKNOWN: Did you speak to Matthews?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Matthews and I worked together for years afterwards and the first time that I heard that was when Matthews phoned me one night and told me that Mr De Lange had come to pick him up.  He was phoning from Thabazimbi and that we were in trouble. I then phoned Mr Erwee and told him what had happened and Mr Erwee then communicated that to me, that there have been these allegations that Tokkie Fuchs shot somebody who was lying on the ground.

UNKNOWN: Last Sunday, did you see Matthews?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What was the occasion?

J P VAN DEN BERG: He came to ask me where this hall was and I gave him directions.  We spoke about the matter, sort of superficially, asked each other are you scared, are you afraid and I said no, we must just all speak the truth.  And he mentioned to me that the investigating officer in this case, Capt Mshlapu had mentioned to him that Deputy Minister Mbeki and the Minister of Defence, Joe Modise had said that Matthews should go to Cape Town at some point.

UNKNOWN: He didn't elaborate any further and you didn't ask him any further questions?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No.

UNKNOWN: And you didn't draw any inferences from that?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Not really.

UNKNOWN: Please just allow me a second.
	Mr Van den Berg, you were present in the hall when Mr Van der Merwe and Mr Coetsee gave their evidence. Was there anything in their testimony which sounded wrong to you, or do you agree with what they said?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Broadly speaking I do agree.  Here and there there are a couple of things which I experienced or noticed which wasn't quite the same as the way they described it.  But substantially, yes, I agree.

UNKNOWN: Now do you feel that you did anything wrong, Mr Van den Berg?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Personally I don't think that I did anything wrong.  But Col Erwee made enquiries at the investigating team of the Attorney-General and they said that they were investigating a case of conspiracy to commit murder against us, and that is why I am here.

UNKNOWN: And you are accordingly, asking the Amnesty Committee, to grant you amnesty for any crime or delict which may be found to have been committed by you in relation to this incident?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Van den Berg ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, if I may interrupt my learned friend at this stage.  I forgot something, Mr Van den Berg.  Did you speak to Matthews Sehlwana afterwards, as to what had been said in the Kombi, from the river to the place where the incident took place?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell us what Matthews had told you as to what was said in the Kombi?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Matthews told me that when they got to Eendvogelpan's house, the person who sat in the front of the van, in the passenger seat, told his comrades "get your guns and be ready".  It was also said to Matthews that if we land up in a road-block, not only us will get hurt, you will get hurt along with us.

UNKNOWN: Did he also tell you why the apples were handed out?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, correct.

UNKNOWN: I apologise, Chairperson, I forgot to mention this piece of evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you asked Matthews as to what was discussed in the Kombi?

J P VAN DEN BERG: You must remember that Matthews and I were still working together for a couple of years after the incident. I asked him a couple of days afterwards, I asked him what happened in the Kombi, because it was essential for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then it is slightly worded now.  You might have asked him what happened in the Kombi, but I think earlier on you - let's leave the question as to whether you asked him what had happened in the Kombi.  You said to a question by Mr Visser that you asked Matthews as to what was discussed in the Kombi, between him and his passengers.

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct, that's how I understood the question, what was discussed in the Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I would understand if he decided to tell you what had been discussed in the Kombi, but I don't understand why you would ask him as to what had been discussed in the Kombi.  Why would you ask him that?

J P VAN DEN BERG: It was important to know, to know what had led to the shooting.  These persons were armed and I wanted to know what their reaction was in the Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you not in command of the operation.

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, I wasn't in command of the operation, but long afterwards this took place or it took place after the events.

CHAIRPERSON: What drove you after some time to think of asking him what was discussed in the Kombi?

J P VAN DEN BERG: As I said, Matthews and I still worked together for a long time after this incident, and it was a natural thing for me and it was also because I was a security policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say he said to you that something was discussed and they told him that if they find a road block ahead he would also be hurt or injured.

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.