Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

BONGANI KHUMALO: When I looked at the purse, Sir, I saw that was not enough money really and that was not enough money to even assist the organisation, that's why I did not even pay attention to the purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You saw it wasn't enough money.  How much money was in the purse?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, by just looking at the purse, the purse will give an indication, that was - even when he had the purse, you could see that the purse had nothing.  You cannot fit R40 000 in that purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you were not ordered to get R40 000, you were ordered to get money for the organisation and even
R1 000 or R2 000 or R100 could assist them.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, when I looked at the purse, I thought the purse did not have anything inside, that's why I did not pay too much attention to the purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, Sir, you've told us a minute ago it didn't have enough money.  Now it's no - it didn't have anything in the purse, what's the truth now?  Thank you.

BONGANI KHUMALO: When I say the purse did not have money, I'm not saying the purse did not have money at all, what I'm saying is that little amount that was inside, he had this purse in his hand and according to how he handled the purse, I did not see whether there was money inside, but the way he handled the purse, that to me was an indication that there was no money in the purse and one other thing, we wanted to run away at that same time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo Tuesday the 24th of February you arrived on the farm for the first time.   Makwara, Dladla and yourself testified in the court case that you've already arrived on the farm before the 24th.  Why are you not telling the truth?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, what I said in Court was the way of defending myself.  There was pressure from the accused, from the co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may, Mr Coetzer.  You say you were - there was pressure that I think Jabulani Tshabalala was testifying against you, saying things which were not true against you.  Am I hearing you to say that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He was saying things against me, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In Court, who was accused number 1?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was accused number 1.

CHAIRPERSON: And between you and Tshabalala, who testified first?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It's me Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Tshabalala I take it testified after you?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he pressurised you after you had testified?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, I had already testified and what he said in Court was considered.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you testified, you were not saying anything against him?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not pressurise him on anything, Sir, I did not say anything against him and the focus was my running away and that I ended up being shot at.  The killing of the farmer was my - it was placed upon my shoulders, but on many instances he put pressure on some of - on the issues.

CHAIRPERSON: When you testified, who did you say killed the farmer?  You said you did.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I said myself Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did Tshabalala do?  What did you say his role was?  I say, according to your testimony, what was Tshabalala's role?

BONGANI KHUMALO: The role played by Tshabalala was to show me where the key to the safe was and he did not do anything really and the purse that has been referred to, he had that.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your testimony in Court?  Is that what you testified to in Court?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not say it in full, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow.  I'm asking you about what obtained in Court because you say Tshabalala was pressuring you and I'm asking you because you testified first, what did you say Tshabalala's role in this crime was?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I only recall that he was pressurising me in Court and some of the things that I have mentioned have left my mind now.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's remind you, we've got the transcript before us.  Page 34 and I will request your attorney to show it to you, starting from line 13.  As you testified first you said it's Tshabalala who stabbed.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, I agree to that, I said it was Tshabalala who stabbed and this I said under those circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: What circumstances, Sir?  You said you testified under those circumstances, so I don't follow what circumstances you're referring to, so I'm asking you what circumstances were you saying that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: This I mentioned to the police and these police took this statement that we gave them at the police station after we'd been arrested, they forwarded the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just tell you what I was asking you a few minutes back when I said this is the transcript of the Court.  This is what you said personally, no other police man, about Tshabalala, that Tshabalala is the one who stabbed.  That is your evidence before Court that Tshabalala stabbed, nothing about the police, taken verbatim as you were testifying.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I ended up saying that Sir, according to the explanation I already gave.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked you yesterday whether Tshabalala was not also an accused.  You said yes.  How could he now pressurise you when he is charged as well with the same offence?  You are both standing there charged with murder and he elects to take the side of the police when he's also charged of murder.  I don't understand that, that is what I want you to make me understand because really I may not be upbeat about that.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Gentlemen, that was the era of oppression and all these things happened while I was looking, nobody told me.  I was arrested with him and I did not believe it when I saw him washing the cars, he was being sent to the shops and we were both arrested, we were charged with murdering a white person.  I don't know what he was given when they were together, but that was evidence enough that he had friends among those police, that is why I'm saying he was pressurising me.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that it was during the days of oppression, but was murder not committed in this instance or are they plucking it from somewhere that there wasn't murder and they just brought murder to you?  Wasn't there murder on this particular day?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It is true Sir, it was murder on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are coming before us to give us the circumstances why there was murder and we have to understand that if you committed that crime of murder, it must have been political and further that we should understand that before we make any decision, we must be satisfied that you gave us all the particulars relating to that murder, in other words full disclosure, is that your understanding why you are here?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if you don't admit your crime, we cannot even think of granting you amnesty, is that not so?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we are asking you a simple question, that you testified first and said Tshabalala killed Mr Odendaal and you say no, Tshabalala was pressurising you when you were the first to utter the words that Tshabalala is the one who did it. Now tell us which is which now.  Let's get it from you, according to you, let's forget Tshabalala for a moment.  Who killed Mr Odendaal?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It's me Sir, I killed Mr Odendaal.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo you haven't explained to us why there were four people who said that you were on the farm before the 24th.  Why do four people say that and now for the first time today you say that the first time you arrived on the farm was the 24th?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, those people do not even know me.  Those four people I do not know, they do not know me.