Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: So there was a party consisting of - wheredo Mamasela, Kula and Gadeba come from?

COL VENTER: As I said, they came down with me, not inmy vehicle, but in the minibus, in the combi, to the airport.

JUDGE WILSON: Are they from Vlakplaas?

COL VENTER: Ja.

JUDGE WILSON: So there were the four of you from Vlakplaas,your askaris and you all went to the airport.

COL VENTER: Chair, no. There were four askaris, myselfand 4A Gert/...
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Gert Besselaar who came from Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did Mamasela, Kula Makaya and Gadebacome from?

COL VENTER: The are the askaris.  Let me explain it toyou. Joe Mamasela is an askari, Piet Magwaya is an askari, PIekieGadebe, I think he's an askari, Nkhule was a member of the policeforce, who also came along from Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: So three askaris.

MR NYOKA: May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I notice in your applicationfor amnesty that you are also including malicious injury to property,what did that relate to?  Does it relate to the burnt van of oneof the three?

COL VENTER: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Did you know that the vehicle used by the threewas going to be used before it was destroyed?

COL VENTER: No, I only learned of that later.

MR NYOKA: Then why is it that you are applying for amnestyfor something that you did not know?

COL VENTER: I only heard later that the vehicle had beendestroyed, whilst I was still in PE, I learned that the vehiclehad been destroyed.

MR NYOKA: But before you left for the airport, you neverknew that there was a vehicle that was going to be destroyed,so that excuses you from any legal liability.

COL VENTER: No.

MR NYOKA: Mr Venter let me move on, if you were in fact,a bystander and did not commit any offence, how is it that youare asking for amnesty regarding other minor offences or thoserelating from the facts?
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COL VENTER: /...
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COL VENTER: I was involved.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman may I please interrupt here.The listing of the specific criminal acts which have been setout in the schedules of all the applicants, were done on legaladvice. The applicants are policemen, they are not legal specialists,they don't know what the elements of specific crimes are, andon that basis I think it is unfair to cross-examine the witnesson what reason these criminal acts were included.  As I've indicatedbefore, it was done on the widest ambit possible and it is notto be regarded as an admission of being guilty of perpetratingnecessarily all these acts.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that meet your requirements?

MR NYOKA: Can I ask a question.  So your lawyer did nottell you the legal implication of including those four factors?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think at this stage any purposeis served as to what part these lawyers are concerned with.

MR NYOKA: Alright, I'll move on.  You are said that youwere not aware of exactly what happened to the three, not so?

COL VENTER: Correct.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not ask the askaris who joinedyou that evening or the following day as to what had happenedto those three that were being interrogated?

COL VENTER: The askaris reported to me and they didn'ttell me what had happened to the people.  To this day I don'tknow how they were killed, whether they were killed and wherethe corpses were or are. I can't answer that.

JUDGE WILSON: The question was why didn't you ask them?

COL VENTER: I didn't ask them because their work hadbeen
4A completed/...
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completed.  I didn't believe that they were further involved.

JUDGE WILSON: They were people subject to your authority,you were in command of them, you had brought them down there,you had sent them off on an operation, and you didn't think itwas your duty to find out what had happened?  Is that what you'retelling us?

COL VENTER: No, I asked them whether they completed theirtask, whether the job was done and they said, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: It seems that you were avoiding findingout, is that so?

CHAIRPERSON: What is meant by whether the job is done, whatjob did you think was happening?

COL VENTER: Initially we went along to help with theinterrogation.  I later suspected that these people had been eliminatedbut the reason why I didn't ask them was that I didn't believethat they were involved in the process of  elimination. I didn'tthink that they were present and that's why I didn't ask them.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have no sense of responsibility foryour askaris?

COL VENTER: I did.

MR NYOKA: The last persons who were with these threewere the police, according to you, not so?

COL VENTER: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Is it not reasonable to conclude that the questionsthat must be asked as to their whereabouts are the police datingfrom 1985, would you agree with me?

COL VENTER: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Were you aware that the then Minister of Lawand Order, Mr Louis Le Grange, paid a brief visit to Port
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Elizabeth a day before they disappeared, the Three disappeared.

COL VENTER: No.

MR NYOKA: Were you in Port Elizabeth the day before thedisappearance of the three?

COL VENTER: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairman, I would like to hand in copiesof a newspaper report indicating that Le Grange was in Port Elizabethto visit African townships at Port Elizabeth.  They are very briefreports Your Worship.  This strikes me as a strange coincidencethat here is a delegation from Vlakplaas and here is the Ministerof Law and Order, and soon there is the disappearance of highprofile politicians. Does that not strike you as odd or a coincidence,Mr Venter?

COL VENTER: It's the first time that I've heard thisand it might seem coincidental, but I was not aware that he wasin Port Elizabeth.

MR NYOKA: Even if you did not know about that then, butnow, is that not a coincidence according to your sense?

COL VENTER: That's what I'm saying, yes it does seemcoincidental that it happened that way.

MR NYOKA: The City Press of the 4th of December 1994quotes a Sergeant X who made three statements regarding the Cradockincident and I will be very brief with you.  He says that it saysthat the three were enticed to the airport by a telephone callto meet a British diplomat.  Your Worship I would like to handin just two pages.  That they were to meet a British diplomat,this is on page three.  He further stated that they were drivenfrom the PE airport, straight to Cradock that very night and interrogatedand assaulted with knobkierries and pistol butts, and that othersheld a
4A braai/...
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braai and drank beer outside, what do you say about these twoincidents?

COL VENTER: I've already said that I don't know exactlyhow they operated and what they did, but they were probably enticedto go to the airport, I'm however saying to you that from theairport they were taken to a beach somewhere and from there theydisappeared, I cannot comment on what happened, because I wasn'tpresent after that.

MR NYOKA: Finally he further says that two of them diedthat very night. The first to die was Mr Hashe who was hit onthe head with a pick handle and collapsed.  The second one todie was Mr Godolozwa, who was shot in the head.  The third one,Mr Galela was saved because he said he was an informer and theyhad to get verification of that the following day. As a result,there was no verification, he was shot the following day. Do youknow anything about that?

COL VENTER: I'm not aware of that.

MR NYOKA: Finally according to Mrs Hashe, the securitypolice came to her home two days after the disappearance of thethree activists and they stormed the house, teargassed the houseand assaulted a child. Were you aware of that incident?

COL VENTER: No Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: I thought you said that you were involved inthat area because you were unknown, why is it that you were leftout of this incident?

COL VENTER: This is the first time that I'm told this,I'm not aware of any of this.