Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are saying he was there, not because you saw him, but because he's able to give the details?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, because I mean the way balaclavas and that time when I'm beaten, I cannot see in the face that this one is maybe Ngo and that because they had balaclavas on their faces.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should follow on that Mr Chairman and then come back to my line of cross-examination.  The four people who were beating you, were they all four black persons?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: There's no question of a doubt in your mind about that?

MR MOHAPE: Ja, because I'm saying you know, there is a difference between a black and white.  And even if that person can put a balaclava but when he's in the process of beating you up you can see this one is black this one is white.

MR VISSER: And again, there was sufficient light for you to see that?

MR MOHAPE: When you talk about sufficient light.

MR VISSER: You see Mr Mohape, what is your problem with answering a simple question?  I want to establish how much light there was to see what you saw because I want to be fair to you.

MR MOHAPE: Now I'm having a problem with that because you know, where I was as I explained yesterday you know, they parked the car next to a row of trees where I was supposed to even jump over the fence and there was general darkness but not darkness that I cannot, you know, see people, you know.

MR VISSER: Thank you, that's the answer thank you.  And while you mention that, there was one motor car according to your recollection?

MR MOHAPE: No I only recollect the one that put me there I don't know if there was another one at the back.

MR VISSER: You didn't see any other vehicles around?

MR MOHAPE: No I did not see it.

MR VISSER: And you've just told Justice Ngoepe that you didn't know Mamome, Tsoametsi, at that time.

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: How does that accord with the evidence yesterday according to our notes, where you referred to the numerous arrests of yourself and you added "Mamome was always present"?

MR MOHAPE: No, I think you must get this thing into context.  I said yesterday and various occasions,  "Mamome has part of those people who have been detaining me" ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: No, I'm sorry Mr Mohape just answer the question.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the witness is still answering the question.

MR STANDER: It's not Mr Memani's witness.  Mr Chairman, certainly I want to object, the witness is answering the questions.  We have already seen that the witness, that his answers are not precise because they want to give us the complete picture.
Therefore my learned friend with great respect,t should give him the opportunity to do so because it will help the commission to great extent to make some sort of ruling on what he says and judge what he's saying.

MR VISSER: Please continue with your reply Mr Mohape.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But before he continues, Mr Visser - I think Mr Mohape, I think in the interest of progress and clarity, you should endeavour to be more precise in your answers.  I think sometimes you, we appreciate that these things are emotive issues and you were subjected to certain experiences, we appreciate that, but please try to be precise in giving your answers.  We'll avoid a lot of problems and a lot of delays.

MR MOHAPE: Ja, my answer was that I said yesterday.  In many occasions and you must understand when you talk about many occasions, I've talked about being detained since I've been an activist, a member of COSAS, and even beyond the time I knew Mamome and the rest, I was still being detained and I never implied yesterday that my first detention, Mamome was there.
I never implied, but he has been there until I was kidnapped, I never said that, but I said yesterday, on many occasions, when I was detained Mamome was there.

MR VISSER: Is that your reply?

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to the witness, I would like to read my note which was that he had said: he refused to meet Ngo secretly because Ngo was an police informer and that he was arrested thereafter 10 to 15 fifteen times and: "After Ngo was working for Erasmus, he was one of those who came to my house. Mamome also always there when I was questioned by Erasmus and Shaw."  So it would appear to indicate that he was talking of a period after Ngo started working for Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I don't want to split hairs about it but I thought that was the period of time that we were talking about now because the issue which is now being addressed is the question as to whether this witness knew Mamome at the time and ought to have recognised him if he was one of the attackers, Mr Chairman, and I want to confine myself strictly to that area, no wider than that, if you will allow me.  Do you know Mr Tsoametsi, presently?

MR MOHAPE: Yes I know him.

MR VISSER: Would it be fair to describe him as fairly stout, thickset person?

MR MOHAPE: I don't understand your question.

MR VISSER: Well, how would you describe his build?  Would Mr Tsoametsi just rise please.  Is he here?  Just step out please.
	And if you'll allow me to save time, Mr Chairman, a fair description of the gentleman would be, I only think in the old language, about five foot seven, five foot eight and stoutishly built.  I don't know whether you will want to improve on that description?  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is his build today, what period are we talking about?

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, that is the subject of our argument because we're going to indicate to the witness just now that he has placed this incident within the year of 1984.

MR MOHAPE: No, No.

MR VISSER: While Mr Ngo has indicated that it was either 1985 or 1986.  We will refer you to the relevant passages, Mr Chairman.  You'll come to the question, you'll have the opportunity to give you answers, don't worry Mr Mohape.

MR MOHAPE: No, I want to correct something quickly, before you try to make something out of that.  I remember yesterday I talked about dates and later when I was requested by the Judges that I should put dates correctly because yes I said, I could not remember correct those dates and I think my dates as I know them, you know, is not 1984 it was during 1984  It was the time when we were busy investigating Ngo and all that incidents that happened never happened in 1984.
	So I thought then today, I would be able to come and put the dates correct as I was asked.  That's why I said yesterday I will do that so that I don't have to invite unnecessary perceived contradictions by anybody else and that's exactly what I wanted to do today.

UNKNOWN: Mr Visser, I in fact requested the witness yesterday to do so and perhaps it would expedite matters if Mr Mohape had the opportunity and if you're ready, could you kindly give us dates about incidents where you were involved?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, the incidents of my kidnapping took place during 1986.  That's when I was kidnapped, the year I was kidnapped.  In 1984, December, it is when we were in conference of COSAS where we started to suspect Ngo.
	In 1985, conference of COSAS again, it's where Ngo came to the conference uninvited and it was when January 1986, we got the information, the list that I talked about that confirmed Ngo as an informer.

UNKNOWN: When did they arrest you for the first time?

MR MOHAPE: I would say my first time was arrested in 1980.

UNKNOWN: '80?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.  The first ever detention I experienced was 1980.

UNKNOWN: And can you still remember the second time?

MR MOHAPE: I think beyond 1980 there were several, not detention as such, but a situation where you'll be picked up by the security branch to their offices and they put you there for hours and hours and then they ask you questions and they take you home.