Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
DANIEL F. DU TOIT BURGER: (s.u.o)

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just ask one question, when you were naming the enemies of the State, you named the UDF, you named the ANC and you didn't talk about the PAC.  Was the PAC not regarded as an enemy of the State?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, they were.

MR SIBANYONI: But you as well as the other applicants, don't talk about it, why?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think I spoke about Mr Omar within the context of the ANC, as far as I am concerned, Mr Omar was not a member of the PAC.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: But the PAC, APLA, ANC, UDF, Umkhonto weSizwe, etc, they were the enemies of the Republic of South Africa.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you are looking at all those organisations?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR P DU PLESSIS: (Cont))
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Burger, I don't want you to give a long list of all the enemies of the State, it could have been much wider than the names you mentioned?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: There were also talk about Trade Unions?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Anybody who undermined the authority of the State?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct, the sovereignty of the State.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I think we went into enough detail with the project around Mr Dullah Omar.  Let's continue with the case of Mr Evans.
	Maybe you can make it clear that these projects were not one following on the other, they were intermingled, they happened simultaneously?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: In a certain way?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: All right.  You have already mentioned that the information around Mr Gavin Evans did not come from the ground, for example from Mr van Zyl or Botha, but from the information structures of the CCB itself?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes Chairperson.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Who gave you that information?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The Co-ordinator, Mr Wouter Basson came to me with that information.  There were various names on those lists, amongst others that of Mr Evans and it was conveyed to Mr Maree.

MR P DU PLESSIS: As far as the chronology is concerned, could you make it clear.  You acquired information from Mr Basson about Mr Gavin Evans, was that discussed between the two of you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  The information around Mr Evans was that he was the Chairman of the ECC and that his involvement with the ECC was aimed at creating division amongst the members of the Defence Force, to lower the morale of the Defence Force and to influence the  youth of South Africa, not to join the Defence Force, to do the service.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for record purposes, is that the End Conscription Campaign?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: End Conscription Campaign.  He was an affiliate of the UDF and that was an affiliate of the ANC.  He was also according to our information, involved in the FFF, the Five Freedom Forum and Jodac and he was very active according to our information,  around the erosion of the morale.    That information came from the information structure, by Mr Wouter Basson, and it was handed to us on the orders of Mr Verster, and we had to appoint a member to concentrate on Mr Evans, around his home, his links with other persons, individuals, meeting places.

MR P DU PLESSIS: His physical movements?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, his movements.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You say that you got the order from Mr Verster, just to make it clear, you got the information from Basson, you discussed it and it was submitted to Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now his order was, Verster's order at that time was to find him and to monitor him?  To whom was that order given?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was given to Leon Maree.

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just be clear on something?  When did the order come from Verster, or did it come via Basson?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, Mr Basson came with the information from the information structure, with the order of Mr Verster, that the members, to activate the members who could not rise from ground-level, and in that way, we arrived at Mr Maree and asked him to use his infrastructure to use this information about Mr Evans, to follow it through.  Because there were no physical addresses available, to try to find his home, to find him and to see whom he dealt with.

MR LAX: Okay, it is just that the way it was put to you now, was subtly different to that in that you got the instruction to monitor, you reported back and then Verster gave you the order to go ahead, so I was just clarifying that.  In fact the order to monitor came from Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Lax.  All right, please continue.  Did you get results from Mr Maree with regard to the address of Mr Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, it took a while before Mr Maree came forward with an address.  I may  mention that at that stage, Mr Maree, as far as I can remember, he was busy with external matters, and at one stage, we considered to deploy him externally, but he gave me the information with they physical address of Mr Evans, but he told me that he could not monitor his movements, apparently Mr Evans moved a lot, or he was rarely at home and that was that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was, did he make any eye contact with Mr Evans, in the sense that he found him and physically identified him?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So he could only give you the address?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, just the address.

MR P DU PLESSIS: All right, what did you do after that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: At one point, myself and Mr Basson, the Co-ordinator, went to Mr Verster and we told him "all right, this person is according to our knowledge, he lives at such and such an address", we did not have any further information about his movements, but as far as his profile is concerned, the structure seen in the light of the so-called enemies of the Republic of South Africa, he is a prominent figure.
	Myself and Mr Basson, informed him about our feelings with regard to Mr Evans, about his activities as an enemy of the Republic of South Africa.  Mr Verster took the information from Mr Basson and he left.
	At a later stage he came to us and told us that it is correct, the information, there is further information existing about Mr Evans that he had acquired, namely that he was involved with weapons and explosives and such kind of matters.
	He was moving with that in and out of the country, and that he also had contact with Mr Heinz Grosskopff, who was seen as a terrorist at that stage and that we should act.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Maybe just for the record, Mr Grosskopff, there were all sorts of allegations that he was responsible for a number of bomb explosions where people died?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, that was the assumption at that point.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did Verster give you any further orders in this regard?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know if it was on the same day or afterwards, or it happened afterwards, we saw him afterwards about Mr Evans and yes, it was conveyed to him that Maree was not at that point, he was not able, he didn't have the capacity.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Capacity to do what?