Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR MOERANE: Is it correct Mr Ras, that everybody who was involved in this operation, knew that the intention was to kill these people?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Let's come to the incident in Swaziland, I think you have told this Honourable Committee that the clear intention there was to kill the people who were ferrying the people who were infiltrating into the country?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: In that incident, you succeeded in killing one and the other one got away?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: Why was the car and the body of the deceased burnt?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, we did not burn the person ourselves, he lay next to the vehicle and one of the reasons why we burnt the vehicle is so that it could never be used again.

MR MOERANE: It was reasonably foreseeable because of the proximity of that person to the motor vehicle, that his body was going to be burnt, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, that could have been foreseen.

MR MOERANE: But nonetheless the motor vehicle was burnt, with that degree of foreseeability, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Was it necessary to have the body burnt under those circumstances?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, if I recall correctly there was an army camp which was situated not very far from there, and if one would consider the circumstances, that it was in the middle of the night, shots resonated quite a distance and we didn't have much time at the scene.  We didn't even open the boot and I definitely did not think about dragging the person's body away from there, I didn't think about it before we burnt the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, the army camp, Swazi army or South African army camp?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No, it was a Swazi army camp.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, oh, sorry?

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Ras, what is the relevance of the Swazi army camp being nearby?  Sorry, did you hear that?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: The shots that we fired, could probably be heard by the, if I recall correctly there was a camp or it was mentioned that there was a camp there, if we remained long enough, after such a shooting at the scene, they would have come in and investigate it and we had to depart from the scene as quickly as possible.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but the man was dead and the burning of the car took place after that, I am trying to make a connection between that and the fact that there was an army camp nearby.  Is there any relevance at all?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No, except for that everything happened so quickly and that we had to depart from the scene, very quickly, so we just shot a hole in the petrol tank and set the petrol tank alight and left.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Just one question Chairperson.  Just regarding the Swaziland incident, how did you know who you were going to go and ambush?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, we did not know.  We knew where the persons would cross the borders on the RSA side and we went across and waited along the road, and hoped that the vehicle would stop close to us which would accompany the people to the other side, which was indeed the case, and the persons left their vehicle unguarded on the other side, about 150 metres from where we lay awaiting the vehicle.

MS LOCKHAT: So you were not informed as to who you were going to ambush?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Could you please repeat?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Were you not informed as to who you were going to ambush, it was just persons coming to the Swaziland border?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No, we did it without any information and exactly knowing where the vehicle would stop.  But it was confirmed that the persons climbed out of the vehicle and the persons that evening cocked firearms clearly, and we knew it was the right vehicle with the right people.

MR MALAN: Mr Ras, the question was you didn't know who the people would be or did you know?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: According to my information Chairperson, it was one person would have been Martin, I don't know him, I never worked in Swaziland, but that was the person who arranged the previous time with Mose to pick up some more people.

MS LOCKHAT: So basically it could have been anybody coming to that border post, would you then just have eliminated anybody?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it was a border post, it wasn't a border post, was it?  It was a place at the border or near the border?

MS LOCKHAT: If someone strange had arrived there at that point in time, would you have still followed through with the instructions, although you didn't know who the persons were?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, as I have said already we knew where the people would come into the country.  The person associated himself with, if he accompanied people to the border with the infiltration, and which made sure that it was the right vehicle when they climbed out of the vehicle and when they cocked their weapons.

MS LOCKHAT: Did Mr De Kock inform you of the details to go into Swaziland?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, he just gave us instructions to go over and to have a look where the vehicle would stop.  We had no direct information that the person would stop there, it was through observation that we identified the correct vehicle and shot the one person there who was indeed armed.

MS LOCKHAT: So was your instructions to go and eliminate these people?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Jansen, do you have any re-examination?

MR JANSEN: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: One thank you, I asked this of somebody yesterday, do you know who the other person sustained the shot in the head?  I know the one you shot, was shot in the head, the others?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, all the windows were broken as far as I can recall and it is a matter of you would not only shoot through the body of the vehicle, you would go for the person.  It is possible that anyone could have been shot in the head.    They had bullet wounds even in their legs.

ADV GCABASHE: You didn't observe anybody, anyone of your colleagues shoot anybody at point blank range?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No Chairperson, the only person who did that, was myself.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Sorry, any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Adv Gcabashe?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman, there is just one matter I would like to clear up with this client, thank you.   Mr Moerane put to you that you corrupted the criminal justice system, is that correct?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Is it true that - let me ask you in Afrikaans - is it correct that you received ministerial recommendations for the work that you did?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes Chairperson, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did it also come to your knowledge that various actions by C1 were commended by the State Security Council?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Is it also your knowledge that Min Vlok was personally at Vlakplaas to congratulate you?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Is it within your knowledge that for conspiracy to commit acts outside the borders of the country, for example, the bomb in London there were SOE medals given to the persons who participated there?