Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall that when you were giving your evidence in chief, you intimated that you became aware that these persons had come to attack you around the 24th and that is when they arrived, on the evening of the 24th?  No, I will correct myself, because as I am putting it to you, I am reading my note
"... they arrived on the evening of the 24th and we discovered that or there was a rumour that they had come to launch some revenge attacks for Martin's death on the 25th of December."
	That was the ambit of your evidence in relation to this point.    My question is, and I need clarity from you, when you heard on the 25th about this rumour that these persons had come to launch retaliatory attacks for Martin's death, what made you believe that that attack would be launched on the 26th because your friends came to keep you company on the 26th and not on the 25th?  How did you know that the attacks were going to be launched on a particular day?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, my friends didn't come on the 26th, I was with them all along.  On the 26th in the morning, that is when they left.  I was with them the previous night.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I note I have made an error.  You have intimated to that extent at paragraph 9 and 10.   You may proceed Ms Thabethe, that was an error on my part.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.   On paragraph 12 of your statement you say
"... after gathering it was decided that these people should be fetched and questioned about their presence in the area."
	My question to you is when you took the people who were in that house, for questioning, you also took the people belonging to this family, not only the people who had come into this house, who were outsiders, why did you do that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We didn't take very member of the family, we took the people who came to Amos' house and we also took Bonny.  The female from Amos' house, they volunteered to come, we didn't call them, they came on their own.

MS THABETHE: I must say Mr Cele, I find that very strange.  You were armed, isn't it when you came to Amos Cele's house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, we were armed.

MS THABETHE: You were a group of, a large number of people, males, isn't that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, there were also females amongst us.

MS THABETHE: But it was predominantly males, is that so?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Now your evidence is that you only took Bonny Cele and the other girls followed voluntarily after people who were well armed and predominantly male?  I find that very strange to comprehend.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have evidence or instructions to the contrary?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: If you do, won't you just put it to him?

MS THABETHE: I put it to you Mr Cele that the females who were in that house, were forced out of that house into the hills for questioning, by yourselves because you were armed.  What is your comment to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are saying is that it was not your intention to take women, the local women, to your "People's Court", is that what you are saying, they came of their own volition?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When we left and approached Mr Amos' house, we were looking for the people who were armed and that is why we surrounded his house, because we were basically looking for the people who were armed, who were at Mr Amos' house.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, can you explain to this Committee why then you proceeded to impose a sentence on the people who had voluntarily come to that "People's Court", because in your evidence in chief, you yourself stated that you imposed a sentence, 50 strokes had to be administered on those women?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When we arrived there and when they were there, they were present there, when they were questioned, they were answering and they were also giving up their ideas and also, they didn't want Bunu to be part of what we were going to do there to these people who came from Umlazi.  They didn't want us to punish Bonny, they wanted us to punish only the people who came from Umlazi, but then we didn't want to punish only those people, we wanted to punish them together with Bonny because that was the reason for them to be there.  That is why we ended up punishing those females as well.   The only person who we went and fetched who was a female, was Nococanya because we wanted to question Nococanya.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabethe.  We are obviously having regard to your earlier evidence with regard to why you punished these women, we however will not belabour this proceedings by putting what you initially said in your evidence in chief, which is contrary to what you are saying now.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Earlier on in your evidence, you had stated that when you took these people up in the hill for questioning, you questioned them on their political affiliation, do you remember saying that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I do.

MS THABETHE: Why did you do that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As I have already explained that we already suspected because of the way they came to the area, and the people whom they came to their house, or the relatives they came to them, denied and the person whom was closer to them, was Bonny, who was running away because he was involved in other incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that Bonny was closer to these people?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: One could see because they were with Bonny.  They were one group and in those days, it was easy to identify because people belonging to an ANC organisation, will be together all the time, and IFP will be together, and people will easily know if you are an ANC or IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but these persons were coming there for the first time, is that not so, that is your evidence?  You only knew Dudu out of the whole lot, you did not know the others, so how would you have known that they are a close association with Bonny?  Just by that encounter?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I am not referring to the group who just came to that area for the first time.  I am talking about the Senora's, the people who used to go to people's houses and ... (tape ends) ... but people from the community, they knew who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: But Ms Thabethe is not questioning you about any other persons other than the ones that you thought came from Umlazi and were there to kill you, those are the person which you are being questioned about and only those persons.  How did you know that those persons had a close association with Bonny?  That is your earlier evidence?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They were together with Bonny on that day, even on the day when they came to my house, they were with Bonny.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Ms Thabethe?

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could I interrupt something.  Beauty, she was the fiancee of Martin, is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Was she an IFP member?  Beauty?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I don't have any idea about that.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether Martin was an IFP member?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, he just came to the area, I didn't know him very well at that time.

ADV DE JAGER: What as the trouble between you and Martin?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There was no trouble or any problem between me and Martin.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't there trouble about money?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There was a long time ago, before his death and in fact, on his death, it was already been resolved.

ADV DE JAGER: What was this trouble about?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: He had my money, I am not sure whether he lost it or he just didn't want to give me back my money.  Then there was a problem and I decided to go and approach Nococanya and explained to her about the money and I was paid this money, but it wasn't Martin, it was Diana who paid me back.