Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: After we have this bakkie I was the one who was going to drive it.  I went to the driver's seat and as I went making a turn, and as the car was on the, turning around the road then there was this car which could not allow me to make a complete turn.   Then when I noticed the occupant of the car, I found out it was a white person and the person who was closed that window of the side of the window to the road, it was Kleintjie and he was armed with the rifle which I was using.  Then I ordered him to shoot at the car, to shoot at the occupant of the car.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell the Committee, did you manage to shoot the occupant of the car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He managed to release I think three shots, not more, I don't know how many shots, but he managed to shoot.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell the Committee what happened to the occupants of the car and to the car, the 4 X 4?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The occupant of the car, after he heard the shots, he managed to reverse the car and on that time I was also  making this U-turn and he were on the other side of the road and it were on the other side of the road.  Then we forget about it.  Then we drove off.

ADV SANDI: I'm trying to get a clear picture in mind as to what was happening here, did you go, did you both go in the same direction with this occupant of the car you are talking about?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was going to Herschel and we were going to Herschel too, so we reversed the car and made this turn to Herschel.

MR LAX: Say that again.  He was going to Herschel, you were going to Herschel, you reversed the car and went to Herschel.  That does not make sense.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The car was not faced to Herschel the one which was taken by me, this, er ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Ladies.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Ladies.  So I made this turn to so that it can face to Herschel.

MR LAX: Right.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As it was coming to that direction. That's what I did.

MR LAX: But you said he was going to Herschel, he reversed and then he went to, he made a turn and went to Herschel.  Did you make the turn?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was the one who was making the turn.

MR LAX: Okay. Did he not turn and drive the opposite direction?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know about that.

MR LAX: So he managed to reverse out of your range and you left him?  You were more interested in getting away, in retreating?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: You also said "we drove away and we saw the other white man hiking along the road.  I tried to run him down. He ran away. I decided to leave him."
Can you tell the Committee whether when you tried to run down this white man, did he recognise that you are the same people who attacked him when he was hiking?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't think he noticed us as the time we are attacking the car we were moving on foot, that's why maybe he made this hike. I don't think so, he noticed that we were the same people who were attacking that car.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm getting very confused on this.  You say this car was travelling towards Herschel?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That means it would have been coming from Sterkspruit.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Herschel in the same direction as Sterkspruit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's directional to Herschel.

CHAIRPERSON: But Sterkspruit is the same direction as Herschel.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: "We dropped the car before we reached the town because we ran out of petrol.  We travelled by foot to our base, and when we arrived the Comrades handed the weapons to me.  I thereafter reported to my superiors."
Can you tell the Committee the name of the Superiors you reported this incident to after it happened and what was their reaction?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I referred to Comrade ... (indistinct) operation, that is Lethlapha Mphahlele as my Superior.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell the Committee what was his reaction after you reported to him about this incident?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He encouraged me to continue further attacks on Settlers and he was happy about that.

ADV SANDI: We have seen in other cases that in these types of incidents the report would be given in writing.  In what form did you report this to Mr Lethlapha?  There was no written report, you just told him what had happened?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The question of the written report would take a lot of time.  It will require maybe three days to reach their place.  Sometimes I have to go there and report in myself, in my person in front of them.  Sometimes I have to use the phone as there, as it is a fast way of communication.  So, in this incident, I used the phone.

ADV SANDI: Did you give him what you would consider to be a detailed report?  How detailed was this report?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was not detailed.  It was totally not detailed.  It was not detailed.

MR SIBANYONI: Could you tell the Committee did you subsequently make a written report regarding this incident?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I do, repeat the question again, sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you subsequently, after reporting to them, to him telephonically, did you subsequently make a written report?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I do, I do.  In some other incidents, depending to the type of the operation, whether they need further clarity to it.  But, as a modus of operandi of the APLA, we do written reports.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make a report, written report, in connection with this incident?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: With this one I went to Umtata, later.  I don't know when.  I don't recall when, to give them a written report.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, Mr Dolo, is there anything that you maybe, you have not told the Committee regarding this incident, you want to add regarding this incident?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: All the particulars of this incident I will talk about the operations that I have been involved in, as well as some of the operation I was involved to that they were all politically motivated.  They were having the blessings of the "Commissariat" Department and we all acted on Commanders of the High Command.  Orders of the High Command and they were justified by our ...(indistinct), that is the PAC as if you to their objectives of the PAC, the aims and objectives of the PAC that will be clause no 2 where they talk of the overthrow of the of the Settler's Colonies in all its forms and whereby an arms struggle was adopted as to be a main form of the struggle.  And further, the piece goes further to mention our struggle, that it was the struggle of the oppression of the nation that it will be an African nation oppressed by Settler Colonists from Europe and our struggle was between these nations and we were not fighting in abstract.  We were not merely fighting apartheid as an abstract as, after all, apartheid started 1948.  Our struggles continue since the arrival of the Settlers in 1652.  So, we were fighting the people, like in each and every struggle if you go through history, people don't fight in abstract, they compromise all those things and fight it, the oppressor.  Be he then in South Africa, the white person, they were fighting such people.

MR SIBANYONI: That is all, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu?

MR LAX: Hello, Jerome?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Dolo, what you have just told us, and if I try and understand what you have been telling us, was this part of your political training, that you were taught that the white man had from 1652, the very time that he put his foot in this country, he was the enemy.  He was the enemy of the black man.  Is that, is that the training, the type of training, ...(intervention)