Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I believed that Japie Oelofse would have released a press statement.

MR PRINSLOO: Japie Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: That's the General you're speaking of?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, it's General Japie Oelofse.

MR PRINSLOO: But in the acts themselves, the public who were stopped there on that same scene who knew that you were AWB members, did you believe or did you not believe it that it was the work of the AWB, the killing of these people?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, they would have done so.

CHAIRPERSON: Only if they survived.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I refer to the people who were stopped beforehand who were not killed.  This was before the other people were killed, that was the question.  Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it's a convenient stage to adjourn until half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DEON MARTIN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: Mr Martin, my client Mr van der Schyff says that he joined the AWB on the 15th of October 1993 and a while after he was introduced to you and to Commander Kloppers, can you confirm this?

DEON MARTIN: I can't confirm the dates but I can confirm that at some stage we met.

MR KNOETZE: Can you confirm that he joined as a member of the AWB?

DEON MARTIN: Definitely.

MR KNOETZE: And he mentions that he was asked by you and Kloppers if he was interested in becoming an officer and he indicated positively and he had to do and examination which he passed?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And then a while after he was appointed as an Assistant Area Commander of Area 3?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And as such he was under your command?

DEON MARTIN: He would have been under the direct command of Commander Kloppers.

MR KNOETZE: Under whose command were you?

DEON MARTIN: Phil Kloppers.

MR KNOETZE: And under whose command was he?

DEON MARTIN: Under General Japie Oelofse.

MR KNOETZE: If you look at page 156, paragraph 4 of the statement, it mentions that
"Kloppers told us that he received instructions to go to work.  He usually gets his instructions from General Oelofse"

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Is that how it worked?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that was the procedure.

MR KNOETZE: My client also states that he received training as a member of the AWB, can you confirm this?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, he was there.

MR KNOETZE: Training was given by Carel Meiring who was the instructor there?

DEON MARTIN: Carel Meiring was the training officer, so he would have given the training.

MR KNOETZE: Can you confirm that he underwent training?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, he did.

MR KNOETZE: And as training and the camps were held in such a manner where for example strict military discipline and training was given with reference to handling of weapons?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And it was also mentioned that the reason for this training was that the people would be able to take back the country?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct, for war, yes.

MR KNOETZE: You used the word I did not want to place in your mouth but that was the point, preparation for war?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: My client also states that he participated in marches and he attended meetings and at some points he accompanied General Oelofse, he was an escort to Vereeniging? Can you confirm this?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that was part of our duties.

MR KNOETZE: Can you remember and if you can't remember you must tell me, was he specifically with?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, he was with.

MR KNOETZE: What was your impression of him as a member of the AWB, how did you see him, as a person who - was he negligent, did not ...[no English translation]

DEON MARTIN: Mr Chairperson, no I would not say that he was a negligent person, he was a good officer.  If an instruction was given to him he complied, he was a good officers.

MR KNOETZE: That is what he will say, he will say he was complimented for his behaviour and he got the impression that his commanders, of which you were one, were satisfied.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: He would also say that on the evening when you met at Uncle Harry's Roadside Cafe you acted openly as AWB members, for example you saluted, you saluted Chief Commandant Kloppers, he saluted back to you, you called the other members to attention almost as if it were a military parade?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Did these things happen in view of those who were present?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: So you were dressed in full uniform, you had weapons and you did not intend to disguise it at all on that evening?

DEON MARTIN: No, not at all.

MR KNOETZE: He would also say to the Commission that Chief Commandant Kloppers used the words: "Hard option" as one of the messages brought back from the order group.

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that's correct.

MR KNOETZE: What did you understand under the concept: "hard options"?

DEON MARTIN: Commandant Kloppers said that he had received instructions to execute hard options and when I asked what he meant by that he said that the General wanted to see corpses.

MR KNOETZE: Could you please speak up?

DEON MARTIN: He said that the General wanted to see corpses and those were the "hard options" to which he was referring.

MR KNOETZE: Therefore, not only you but the other members also in attendance, such as Mr van der Schyff were aware of exactly what that meant?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: What was the exact purpose behind the operation, why was it necessary to see corpses?

DEON MARTIN: Phil Kloppers told us that the revolution would have broken out countrywide on that night.

MR KNOETZE: Did you believe that?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, because he had come from an order group meeting and the highest rank in attendance there was General Oelofse and he said that this instruction came from the Generals and staff, that the revolution would break out on that night.

MR KNOETZE: Did it come to you as a surprise that they said that the revolution would break out on that evening?  I don't mean it in the sense that it would break tonight but that a revolution in itself would be breaking out?

DEON MARTIN: No, because we had been preparing for a long time for the revolution.

MR KNOETZE: Which type of instructions did you receive before which had to be undertaken in preparation for the revolution?

DEON MARTIN: For example stockpiling of food, generators and such because it was said to us that the country would find itself in darkness.

MR KNOETZE: And what about weapons?

DEON MARTIN: It was said that if we didn't enough weapons we would have to go and steal weapons, that came from the General's own mouth.

MR KNOETZE: That is what I was hoping you would say because those were my instructions.  Mr van der Schyff said that it was said that you didn't have enough weapons you'd have to go and steal them.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And that was an official order from the AWB's command structure?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: A hard option meant that you had to see corpses, why did there have to be corpses on that evening?  I understand that you say the revolution had to be initiated but what other objectives were there?

DEON MARTIN: I believe that the AWB had acted nationally as they had said to us and if the general public had seen that a revolution was imminent, they would have put the elections to a stop and we would have been able to establish our own Boerestaat for our Boerevolk.

MR KNOETZE: You said that the elections would have been stopped, so therefore one of the objectives was to prevent the elections?

DEON MARTIN: That's right.

MR KNOETZE: So therefore I understand you correctly that the objective was to create chaos in the country to stop the elections from happening?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.