Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes, I did not have information to come here.

MR WAGNER: May I refer you to your written application, it is in Volume 1 from page 23 onwards.  Merely for the record Mr Chairman I see that this was also not a sworn statement.  May I refer you specifically to page 26, that is paragraph 10.b there at the top.  Do you have it in front of you?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes I have it.

MR WAGNER: Only one question and I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Maybe I should ask you this.  Is this your own handwriting or did someone or did you tell someone else what should be written into your application?

WILLIAM MABELE: This is my handwriting.

MR WAGNER: Then can you please tell me in the second last line, the letters WM there, what does it stand for?

WILLIAM MABELE: This is not WM, it's with.

MR WAGNER: So is the sentence then:  "To us Black people at that time ..." - maybe I should read it then complete - "The Magistrate's Court is one of the government institution which was used to enforce apartheid laws to us as Black people at that time with policemen", is that the word, "with policemen"?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: Now if I may take you back to page 23 you say that you were a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.  When did you joint Umkhonto weSizwe?

WILLIAM MABELE: In 1987.

MR WAGNER: Was that before or after this operation which was also in 1987?

WILLIAM MABELE: After the incident.

MR WAGNER: Was that when Mr Kgoele told you that you should leave the country and then you left the country and you joined Umkhonto weSizwe in some foreign country?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: On what day did you leave the country in relation to the bomb explosion, was it the same day, the next day, a week later.  Can you just help me there?

WILLIAM MABELE: I do not remember the day quite well, I do not even remember the date, but it was after a few weeks.  I do not remember whether it was after three or four weeks.

MR WAGNER: And in those three weeks did you and the people you were with discuss what happened at the Magistrate's Court?

WILLIAM MABELE: I did not speak to anyone in those weeks.  This issue was known by myself and Joseph Kgoele.

MR WAGNER: Were you a member of SOYCO (?) at the time?

WILLIAM MABELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What?

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman I think it stand for Soweto Youth Congress.  SOYCO.  Did you attend any meetings of SOYCO in that period immediately after the explosion?

WILLIAM MABELE: No.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman so as not to confuse you, those questions were merely asked, I have information that the explosion was discussed in some detail at such a meeting, but I can't take it any further with this witness, there was nothing else intended by the question.  I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGNER

ADV PRIOR: No questions thank you.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Mabele when Mr Kgoele said to you that you should watch TV news that evening, what did you think about that, didn't that surprise you someone telling you that you should watch news on TV tonight?

WILLIAM MABELE: I asked him why and he told me about his hatred to the "Boers" and I asked him why he targeted that place.  What he told me was the Magistrate Court was sentencing the Black people and he was a trained person, he knew that a policeman was an enemy and the government buildings were also targets.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he tell you this?

WILLIAM MABELE: That was after days, when he came to repair a car.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, when he told you that morning to watch television, didn't you think it surprising?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes it surprised me because I did not know what to expect on the news.  I asked him why do I have to watch television today.

DR TSOTSI: And what did he say?

WILLIAM MABELE: He said watch television, I did not actually ask him, he said watch television today.

DR TSOTSI: Did it ever happen to you before that someone asked you to watch television?

WILLIAM MABELE: It was the first time.

MR SANDI: Did you say you found that surprising?

WILLIAM MABELE: It surprised me because he told me to watch television at night, he didn't used to tell me to watch TV, but when he told me on that day to watch the news it surprised me and when I watched the news I got more surprised when I saw what happened.

MR SANDI: At that time were you a member of any kind of organisation?

WILLIAM MABELE: I was an ANC supporter?

MR SANDI: How did you go about supporting the ANC?

WILLIAM MABELE: When we had funerals I would attend the funerals and I would attend night vigils.  Sometimes at school, because of the harassment by the Whites, there were times where we would conduct discussions and there would be people among us who had knowledge about the ANC and Joseph Kgoele used to talk to me about the ANC at times, but not stating in details all the facts.

MR SANDI: But I understand the ANC was still a banned organisation in 1987 Mr Mabele?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes it was banned, but we knew about the ANC and I've already told you that there were people who had knowledge about the ANC and they passed it on to others and as they were talking one gained interest as to why is the ANC fighting and these are issues that we would be discussing and I realised that ANC was the right organisation to join.

MR SANDI: Did you support any other organisation besides the ANC, I'm not talking about membership?

WILLIAM MABELE: No other.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Mabele.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, and correct me please if I'm wrong, after you saw the television you realised that Mr Kgoele had set off the bomb which had damaged many cars and killed several policemen.  Is that right?

WILLIAM MABELE: I did not see the policemen at that time, they only showed, only the damage to the cars was shown.

CHAIRPERSON: You learned that many policemen had been killed and others injured?

WILLIAM MABELE: I did not know about the police.  I learned that when I applied for amnesty.  I did not know how many of them died.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not saying you knew how many, but you knew there had been an attack?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did not report it to the police because you supported what had been done?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You yourself had suffered at the hands of the police and you felt that this was a justifiable action.  Is that the position?

WILLIAM MABELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is was politically justifiable, it would teach them a lesson?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes I agree.

ADV PRIOR: I'm sorry Mr Chairman there's one aspect that arises before my learned friend, I notice that at page 30 of the bundle in a letter to the Amnesty Committee Mr Mabele supplied certain further particulars and I just possibly, in fairness to him if he can comment on the first paragraph where he seems to suggest that he knew that the car that went to Jo'burg city had explosives in it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he did know when he wrote this letter didn't he Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not saying I knew at the time.

ADV PRIOR: Oh I see, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (Inaudible) he left with the other car .. (inaudible).

ADV PRIOR: Yes but it doesn't seem clear.  His evidence is that he didn't know at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any further witnesses?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR LANDMAN: No further witnesses.