Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now is it so that the original plan was that Mr Botha and Mr van Zyl were not actually going to come to the Early Learning Centre with you, you were going to go there alone and explode the bomb by yourself?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, never, it's not so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Never?  Was that never the plan?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, it was arranged that I must go and pick them up at the airport - at the Bellville Holiday Inn.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If the evidence has been that the original plan was that you would explode the bomb and that Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha weren't going to be there, is that evidence untrue?

ISGAK HARDIEN: In the first place, I do not even know how the bomb was supposed to detonate, so I could not go alone because I only had the bomb, there was nothing connected to it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but they could have just given you the calculator and told you to press the button.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was not explained to me like that, they wanted to ensure that nobody was injured.  They told me: "Come and pick us up at the Bellville Holiday Inn."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you could have made sure that no-one got injured, from what I've heard so far.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I do not know anything of a bomb, I did not know how you detonate it until they arrived, so how can I go and detonate the bomb there?  What was I supposed to do or kick?

MR KAHANOVITZ: If I also understand your evidence, nobody told you where in the hall to place the bomb.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Exactly, I used my own discretion and I thought I'll put it in the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: One of the steps that you took to make sure that no-one was injured was to warn Mr Williams that a bomb was about to go off, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well if you were going to do that, then it wasn't necessary to make sure that everybody had left the hall, you agree with me?  All the other steps you're talking about become entirely irrelevant.  You walk in, you warn them: "There's a bomb, you must leave now."  You don't need to do anything else, you've done everything you need to do.  You agree with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I wanted to ensure that everybody was out.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No please listen to my question.  If somebody walks in here now and warns us that there's a bomb, we must all leave, are we going to leave?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They don't need to come - are you suggesting that you have to come back, see who is here, tick their names off as they come out and make sure that the parking lot is empty afterwards?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You wouldn't need to do that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well why did you need to do that at the Early Learning Centre?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, we stood at the back and the cars had to be gone so that I can be sure that nobody comes out to the front and then I met Mr Williams in the front, whether he believed me now or not, but I told him.  I cannot say anything else.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I take it though on your version, Mr Williams must have completely ignored what you told him.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It's him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but is that your version?  You came to tell him there was a bomb and he just didn't want to listen to you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No he said - I'm not going to use the curse word again, he just said: "You're mad."

MR KAHANOVITZ: So did you report this to Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told Mr van Zyl: "Everybody is leaving, Mr Williams and them are on their way out, the security is locking the gate."

MR KAHANOVITZ: No did you tell Mr van Zyl that you warned Mr Williams that there was a bomb but he didn't want to listen?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I never told Mr van Zyl something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: And if I did, I did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you tell him or didn't you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I only what I told Mr Williams and if I did not say it to him, I did not.  I cannot recall if I told him that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: For who, Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It would have been a very important thing to have told him, you agree with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, but I cannot recall if I told it or not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember if you told him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if I had to tell you that Mr van Zyl says that you told it to him, that could be true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say because I was not here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It could be true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that by warning Mr Williams that there's a bomb, that you've planted a bomb in the hall, that you would have been exposing Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha to the danger of being caught, seeing that they were just sitting close to the hall outside in the car that you were using?  That you had borrowed.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because I said something to Mr Williams?  To tell you the truth Mr Chairperson, I did not even think of it, if I told him that.  They did not see Mr Botha or Mr van Zyl.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, if I understood your evidence while you were being cross-examined by Mr Williams, these precautionary steps that you took to make sure that no-one was injured or killed, do I understand your evidence to be that if the bomb - you only had to make sure that there was no-one in he hall, because nobody outside of the hall could be injured or killed by the bomb?  Is that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not think that anybody would be injured on the outside or will be killed on the outside.  I did not think of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I ask you to look at Exhibit N, the photographs, could you look at photograph number 5, do you recognise where that is?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes Sir, I've been to this place every day.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's the entrance hall, the foyer.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It's the foyer, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay.  Do you see what your bomb did to the foyer?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now are you seriously suggesting to the Committee that you didn't think that the bomb might harm somebody who was in the foyer?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, at that time I did not think that the bomb will injure people on the outside because there was no-one there on their way to the hall, there was no-one there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, you knew - where does the night watchman - where's his room?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know where his room is, all that I know is that he stays on the premises.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your evidence has also been that you spoke to Mr Williams in the foyer, remember your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not the foyer, Sir, the door before you get the foyer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh come, Mr Hardien, surely you'd have to admit that you were aware that anybody who was in the foyer could be hurt or killed by the force of the explosion.

MR LAX: The question was, surely you were aware that anybody who was in the foyer would be hurt or killed by the explosion.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now look at photograph number 28, what is that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: A classroom.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's a kindergarten.  Very small children play there, do you agree with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now can you see what happened to the windows in that kindergarten?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I take it you didn't care what impact this explosion would have on the children who used this kindergarten.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because I did not know what the impact of the bomb was going to be.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you expect the Committee to believe you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: If they do not want to believe me, they do not have to believe me.  I did not know what the affect of the bomb was going to be.  If they told me that we want to frighten them, nobody must be injured, and I believed that nobody would be injured, because I do not know anything about bombs.