Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR LAX: If you were walking along the verge of the road, would you have been able to see the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think perhaps, I don't know how vigilant people are, but I think I would have observed it, had I been walking along.

MR LAX: When you left there in the darkness, could you see the body on the side there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, it was pitch black.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that point.  We've spoken about grass, were there bushes there, shrubbery, trees?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, it was pretty much flat.

CHAIRPERSON: Grass?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: You said something during your evidence and it was around the issue of, after you left the room, after observing the body, while you were sort of calculating in your mind the possibilities of what you would need and how you would dispose of the body, you then left the room and you went and remained with the other members until it was late enough to remove the body, that's how you testified.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Which other members did you remain with?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I recall du Preez and I recall Taylor, Sir.

MR LAX: And what about Botha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman I presume he must have been there, but I don't recall him as I'm thinking about the incident right now.

MR LAX: And what did you do while you were waiting there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, we just hung around and just spoke and I can't recall anything else.  We were just waiting for the lateness of the hour.

MR LAX: You see, I'm going to read you what Botha says in his application.  He says, I'm going to read you a long portion, it's all in Afrikaans so I suggest you put the thing on, page 20 or bundle 1.  He says, from the middle of the page
"In the light of the above mentioned, Col Taylor and I decided to cover up her death in our presence.  Her body would be dumped where it would be discovered by means of fingerprints during the post mortem inquest, her identity would be determined.  At the same time the cause of her death would not indicate foul play.  I informed Sam du Preez, who had returned in the meantime, and requested him to remove the body later that evening, once the other members had either left the camp or gone to sleep.  Approximately an hour later, Sam and Lawrie departed with a vehicle and Col Taylor and I, or I informed Col Taylor that they would make a plan to leave the body in a place where it would later be discovered."
You followed all of that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: No in other words, from that portion it seems reasonably clear that  you and du Preez left approximately an hour after that decision.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: That was an hour after the decision to dispose of the body, correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's what, yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Of course, your testimony is that it didn't happen that way.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I seem to recall probably longer than an hour.

MR LAX: Yes.  It was just interesting that in the first part of your evidence before you corrected yourself, you did indicate approximately an hour.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was longer, I feel it was longer than an hour.

MR LAX: Yes.  The other thing is that on your version Taylor knew what the plan would be.  Am I correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The plan?

MR LAX: In other words to dispose of the body at a place where it would be found.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, he came to me with the order.

MR LAX: Precisely.  But on this version of Botha's, in this application, he went and reported to Taylor that that was what would be done.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Chairman, I'm not party of, between the senior officers' discussion.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't know where that is on this page.  I've followed very carefully.   In fact what there is on this page, with great respect, is precisely the opposite.  He says
"In the light of the above,"  loosely translated, where Mr Lax started reading, "Botha and Taylor decided"
and the next paragraph followed.

MR LAX: Fair enough I may have read the wrong emphasis into the penultimate paragraph on that page then, where he then after they had left, goes and reports to Taylor that you would make a plan to ensure that the body would be left at a place where it would be found.  You see, my impression of this bit of testimony is that they discussed that they'd get rid of the body but the precise details were things that Botha and you guys discussed and that after you left, he went to Taylor and told him.  That's what this reads, if you read it carefully.  You don't know about that.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR LAX: As far as you're concerned, Taylor and Botha discussed the matter in your and Mr du Preez's presence and you were simply given a direction although you overheard their discussion?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Just about that discussion.  What else did you hear?  What other options did they weigh up?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, there was no other options within my earshot, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: So what sort of a discussion did they have, if they didn't debate options?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I didn't believe, discussion is the wrong word, Mr Chair, because they were basically briefing du Preez and I.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you referred to it earlier
"It was a very brief discussion, more of a directive."

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: More of a directive Sir, it was not discussion in options and points to be given or taken.

MR LAX: You've misunderstood my question.  My question is, and I asked you very carefully, Botha and Taylor had a discussion in your presence, they then made a decision. You said "Yes".  They then gave you a direction?  You said "Yes".  Do you understand the difference between what I'm putting to you or suggesting to you?  that's what I've understood from your testimony.  If I haven't understood you correctly, please correct me.  Do you see?  That's how I understood it.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm not quite certain yet.

MR LAX: Okay.  Let me explain again.  Did Botha and Taylor have a discussion about what to do with the body, or did they just suggest to one another in three sentences, "Let's dispose of the body."  "Yes, let's dispose of the body", come to you and say "Get rid of the body in a place that can be found?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: As quick as that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Virtually as quick as that.

MR LAX: Okay.  Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wasserman, the place where you and Mr du Preez put the body into the Skyline at the shooting range, if somebody was staying in, was in the room where the C1 members slept, could they see that spot?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not at all, when you said you went in to take a look at the body and saw it was wet and you smelled urine, did you not at all think that steps should be taken to line the boot of the vehicle, to prevent any possible evidence of the fact that you had transported a dead body in the vehicle?  Either line the boot or wrap up the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, to be frank, I did think of that.  However, by the way that we were able to operate, I realised at that point that nobody would come to our vehicle, there was no reason to worry about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETHE: Sorry, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MS THABETHE: Yes I realised that.  I have some few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't intend to ...

MS THABETHE: Two aspects here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.