Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Well it was for the first time that people cameto my house to inform me that the police were actually lookingfor me, I should take cover.   Usually when the police come, evenmy comrades don't even know because they also fall victims ofthat arrest, they usually arrest me early hours of the morningso it was a strange thing that all of a sudden people coming witha Kombi saying they are coming to tip me off that the police areactually looking for me, but not knowing what kind of a car I'mdriving.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : So you honestly believe that the peoplewho ultimately came and bombed your house are the same peoplewho initially came on 7 October and spoke to your wife about yourwhereabouts?

ANSWER: I do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Tibedi may I ask you, besides this particularhouse did you have any other house?

ANSWER: No that was my only house, it is still my onlyhouse even right now I don't have any other house except my officialhouse in Mmbatho.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is there any other house in which duringthat period you stayed which was possibly not your house?

ANSWER: No that was the only house that I used as myresidence.

JUDGE WILSON: : Where did you stay when you went away fromyour house and slept away for a few days?

ANSWER: I have a cousin in Unit X in Makupane, the houseNo is 611, that is where I stayed.

UNKNOWN: Were your family also staying with you at611
3b during /...
MS KHAMPEPE 303 G D TIBEDI
during those nights or were they left at home?

ANSWER: My family was left behind at 589.

UNKNOWN: They remained at 589.

ANSWER: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Mr Tibedi when the people came to make thisfriendly call to make enquiries about yourself to your wife, wasyour child around the house?

ANSWER: Both my child and my sister were in the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Were they visible to the people who cameto make this call?

ANSWER: The person who was visible will be my wife becausemy daughter was already asleep at the time, it will be my wifeand my younger sister who was actually reading in her bedroom,she was reading.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : What time was it on 7 October when thesepeople came to visit you?

ANSWER: I would say around, between 10 and 11.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : In the evening?

ANSWER: In the evening yes.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman, we can deal withthe next incident, that is the incident pertaining to Father Makatshwa.  The incident appears on page 311 of Captain Hechter's application.
JACQUES HECHTER (suo)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter on page 312 of your applicationyou give the particulars of the event with regard to Father Makatshwa,could you read this to us?   If you want to add anything Captain,please do so.
3b ANSWER: /...
MR DU PLESSIS 304 J HECHTER

ANSWER: Mr Chair
  "Father Makatshwa was in Soshunguwe, a very prominent figure,also a well known figure amongst the youth and a person well-knownto the security police due to his involvement in politics.   Hewas a powerful supporter of the ANC and Father Makatshwa was alsoa widely-read person, well-read into the purposes of the Communist'smovement.   In that time during the 1980's he was very activeamongst the youth, involved in school boycotts and other boycotts.  In terms of the information available to us he was also involvedin the providing of housing to terrorists as these moved or travelledfrom one place to another.   Because of his incitement of theyouth there were many incidents of arson involving the youth.  Since Father Makatshwa was indeed a thorn in our flesh, a decisionwas made at a higher level to eliminate him.   We approached ourtechnical section in the security police and had two rifles preparedwith the appropriate rounds.   The one was a 308 which then usedthe same rounds as an R1 and the other was a 22 rifle, both ofthese were provided with..."

<UNKNOWN>: If you could just wait a moment, you havereferred that Mr Makatshwa was well-read in Communist literature,could you expand on your claim?

ANSWER: At a previous time, our unit in co-operationwith the riot unit visited Father Makatshwa's home.   In his roomit was striking to me that the Bishop kept in his room next tohis bed, a very small Bible and behind a curtain on the
3b wall /...
MR DU PLESSIS 305 J HECHTER
wall he had a book-rack in which he had Communist books by Lenin,Engels, books on counter-espionage, espionage, books on terrorism.  Father Makatshwa knew about revolutionary and counter-revolutionaryactions.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter I was just informed that heis Father Makatshwa and not Bishop Makatshwa.

ANSWER: That is the case, my apologies Father.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you think he was a Bishop, you keep referringto him as Bishop?

ANSWER: Chair I'm a member of the Dutch Reformed ChurchI know very little of other churches, for me a Bishop or a Fatherwould be the same kind of thing, I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible - not translated).

ANSWER: At that time yes I knew very little, 10 yearslater I know more.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter the actions in which FatherMakatshwa was involved with regard to youth, can you rememberwith regard to this information whether any of these youths wereinvolved in criminal activities or serious acts of terror?

ANSWER: Mr Chair as I said we reacted on reports by ourinformation sources, if these reports were available I could giveyou an honest answer with documentary proof.   At this stage Ihave to deduce that this would have been the only reason why itwas decided that Father Makatshwa had to be eliminated, that itmust have been due to his involvement with youth and their violentactions subsequently.   That would have been the only way in whichto neutralise such violent actions.