Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

UNKNOWN: Yes that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: And outside the vehicle and he was being tortured inside the vehicle, you were still able to tell us
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that he had obvious injuries?

UNKNOWN: There was a light in the vehicle.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Brigadier how long did this assault last whilst he was in the vehicle?

UNKNOWN: Approximately a half an hour, maximum.

ADV DE JAGER: What kind of vehicle were you driving?

UNKNOWN: A 16-seater combi.

ADV DE JAGER: In previous cases where information had been given and the person did not want to join, for instance become an askari, did you kill him, or some of your staff members killed him?

UNKNOWN: Yes I think that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: Now would that not have happened in this case as well?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson as I've said, I was more keen to obtain the information out of this man.

ADV DE JAGER: But let us assume you eventually did get the information out of him, what would you have done with him then?

UNKNOWN: Then we would have tried to persuade him to work for us.

ADV DE JAGER: And if he didn't want to?

UNKNOWN: Then we would have charged him along with these people he pointed out.

JUDGE WILSON: And let him go to court and tell the court all about your tortures?

UNKNOWN: Yes but as I said we would have denied it.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes but once you detained him he could be examined by a district surgeon who would see these strangulation marks around his neck and the other visible
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injuries, what value would anybody attach to your denial?

UNKNOWN: Well we wouldn't immediately detain him, we had a place where we could keep people like these until they recovered from their injuries.

JUDGE WILSON: Where, I want the address, details of it.

UNKNOWN: We could have for instance, have detained him at Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: You did that, you took injured people to Vlakplaas did you?

UNKNOWN: We could have done so.

JUDGE WILSON: To recover? Did you do so.

UNKNOWN: We did yes.

JUDGE WILSON: So there can be other evidence of injured people who were brought to Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: It is possible.

JUDGE WILSON: If you did it, it's not possible, it would happen, wouldn't it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I misunderstood.  Yes we did that.

JUDGE WILSON: And you would then have to explain how it was that he disappeared from the time that you took him away to the time you finally charged him in a court of law?

UNKNOWN: That is so.

JUDGE WILSON: I suggest to you that this is not so Brigadier, that rather you did, as my brother suggested, you eliminated them to avoid all these possible problems.

UNKNOWN: That is also possible that we could have eliminated them, I'm not saying it is not possible.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Brigadier what was used in the torturing?

UNKNOWN: Only their hands, no instruments or weapons
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were used.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you suggesting that the torture consisted of fists and open hands, that's all?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many people were involved in this, your staff?

UNKNOWN: As far as I can remember, only two people were involved, Prinsloo and du Plessis.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You didn't take part in the torture yourself? ...(tape ends)

UNKNOWN: No I didn't, not myself.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you not in charge of the operation?

UNKNOWN: Yes Chair, I was.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now if you were in charge of the operation and, as you have testified, that it was an accident that this man was eliminated, why didn't you stop the throttling on him?

UNKNOWN: Well I could have stopped it but I did not expect that they would throttle him so long that he would die.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How long throttling does it take a man to die?

UNKNOWN: It's quite quick, I'm not exactly sure but I think it would be quick.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes but you saw these two men throttle this man?

UNKNOWN: I did.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What did you expect from the throttling when you saw them do it?

UNKNOWN: I did not expect that they would throttle him so long that he would die.
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JUDGE MGOEPE: I thought you said that you were watching this?

UNKNOWN: No not all the time, it was dark in the car, it was just after we got out, then the light was on but
further I sat in the front and they were in the back.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You could be affected by the darkness and going out, how long did you witness their throttling?

UNKNOWN: It is difficult for me to say now, it could have been a couple of seconds.

JUDGE MGOEPE: By the two men?

UNKNOWN: Yes by both of them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Brigadier really did you expect the man to survive being throttled by two men and after this man has been tortured and assaulted?

UNKNOWN: I did not expect that they would throttle him that long, so long that he would die.

JUDGE WILSON: Well as the officer in charge, why didn't you watch and when you could see what was going on tell them to stop, you were responsible, you gave the orders?

UNKNOWN: Yes I was responsible but I did not watch them all the time, I was looking in front of me.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And Brigadier you told us that his death was an accident, and I never gave such an order?

UNKNOWN: That's right I never gave an order that he must be killed.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well we shall be correct if we draw an inference or come to a conclusion that these men who throttled and killed him acted on their own?

UNKNOWN: No no it was my responsibility because I was there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If you say you accept responsibility, are
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you saying you accept responsibility for what you they did in your presence and you quietly just allowed it to happen, is that what you are saying?

UNKNOWN: Yes that is what I am saying.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now I'm a bit perplexed here, if you say you accept responsibility and you quietly allowed what was happening, and then you say you did not give that instruction. How could you not give an instruction and at the same time accept what they were doing?

UNKNOWN: I accept what they did because I could have stopped them and I didn't.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Let us confine ourselves to the action of the two men and stick to your statement that you did not give that instruction.  Can we say that they acted without an instruction and as such what they did did not fall within the ambit of your operation?

UNKNOWN: No it was not the intention to kill them, I never gave such an order but I accept responsibility for it because I allowed it to happen.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you condone it?

JUDGE MGOEPE: That I understand, I understand further that you condoned what they did, but what I'm saying is, put aside the condonation, can we say, the two men, what they did by killing this man, they did outside the ambit of the operation.

UNKNOWN: Yes it was not the intention.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If it was outside the ambit of the operation then it becomes a pure criminal matter?

UNKNOWN: No, I was sitting there, in other words I should have stopped it, but it was not the intention and I allowed it.
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JUDGE MGOEPE: You haven't responded to my question, whether this becomes now a pure criminal matter?

UNKNOWN: No it was done with a political aim, we did kill activists.  The assault and his death were both to gain information about terrorists in the Republic and who wanted to overthrow the government.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Brigadier when you planned this operation, your intention, your aim was to acquire information, elicit information from this man, that was the operation.

UNKNOWN: Yes information with regard to terrorists.