Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: You see what Mr Thulo, let's be on the same wavelength, part of my duties is to clear up certain things with you, I can't just leave them and surmise about certain things.  Things which are not clear to me, I've got to ask you, and not only me, my Committee Members as well, because when we leave here and give a decision we must be absolutely sure that we are satisfied with your evidence.  Do you follow that?  So when you answer me, please forget to say "I said earlier".  Actually, when a person says that to me he gives me the impression that I'm not listening, okay?  So bear with me, I would keep on butting in, asking you questions, don't feel, because it is my duty to make that I get everything which is not clear for me personally.  Which is not clear, I will ask you questions, okay?  And it would be wrong for me to have something, a statement of this nature and not clear it up with you.  Okay?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is okay, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Koopedi.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, just perhaps in the interest of going a bit quicker perhaps, could it just perhaps be cleared with this witness when he talks about 1985 and 1987, when he talks about the unit, what he's actually referring to.  Is he referring to this information unit or is he referring to the Security Branch at Ladybrand.  There may be, and I put it no higher than that, there may be a confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: There is certainly confusion.
	Mr Thulo, you said you joined the Police in 1981, you recall that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I recall, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1985 you joined the Security Branch.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Which Security Branch and where did you join that Security Branch?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The Ladybrand Security Branch, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you speak of units, because now - let's take this one for instance, which is subject of this hearing, the unit where Messrs Jantjie, Jagga and Mr Robertshaw and yourself, you say you joined that seven months prior to the incident which we are discussing here.  Do you recall saying so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now to a question you said
"I said I joined this unit in 1985"
which unit are you referring to now?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson.  I said I joined the branch.  When I said, I wanted to make a clear - I was joining the Security Branch in 1985, I was working at the border under the uniform branch and I left the border, came to the Security Branch in 1985.  When I said I joined in 1985, the unit in 1985, I wanted to say I joined the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: And which was not - when you performing functions or duties in this branch, the Security Branch, in 1985, these people, your co-applicants were also in the Security Branch but not doing the same duties, they were doing separate duties?  Because you know what, what we have heard is that their unit was tasked with collecting information from Lesotho.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.  Before I was working in the Security Branch, but my duty was not to get information from the countries around South Africa, I was working in the country, not outside the borders of South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the translation is going to confuse whoever is listening to it.  I would say the witness should repeat that and please listen to what the witness is saying.
	May you, Mr Thulo, start again.  We are sorry about this, it's just that the translation or interpretation was garbled and I would ask you to be slow about this, because it is important that we get the essence of what you are saying.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson.  I want to clear this.  Within the Security Branch there were members who were gathering information inside the country, not outside the borders of South Africa.  In other words, other people would not be in a position to leave town to go into Lesotho to gather information, they were not given that authority.  That is why there was this unit which was tasked with gathering information in Lesotho, in other words, inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: And hence, in 1987, seven prior to the abduction of the four people who are subject of this hearing, you joined them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's how it happened, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry about that, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I must thank you Mr Visser, for ...

MR VISSER: ...(indistinct - no microphone), Chairperson, I should have told you.  It appears from page 23 in any event, at the foot of the page.

MR LAX: It doesn't really, the clarification.

MR VISSER: You're quite right, half of it appears there.

MR LAX: I was looking to see if it was there myself.  Unlike many other applicants, he didn't put the internal variation.
	Just as a matter of interest Mr Thulo, when you joined the Security Branch at Ladybrand in February 1985, what were you allocated, what duties were you allocated?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was doing office work, if I recall.

MR LAX: Yes, that doesn't tell me anything.  What were your duties?  What desk were you assigned to, what section were you supposed to work on?  Were you an administration clerk?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did filing.

MR LAX: So you were a filing clerk?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would say so, if you want to take it that way, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, we want to get it from you, he's merely making an example, he's not - don't take anything he's saying.  If you don't agree with him, please say so.  Tell us what your duties were.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson.  I wanted to explain to this Committee that the work that I was doing was filing.

MR LAX: Yes, filing what?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Files that were utilised in our office.

MR LAX: What sort of files, were they administrative files, were they information files?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We did the filing for the office, Chairperson, there was no distinction, administrative filing, files regarding the information.  The file that was needed at that time we had our hands on.

CHAIRPERSON: Within the intelligence community?  Now this is Special Branch, it's not ordinary South African Police, as it then was.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: These were files of the information received by the Security Branch.

MR LAX: Precisely, they were files on people, files on organisations.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I had explained that.

MR LAX: Now, when did you stop doing the filing and start doing other information gathering duties?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would not be precise, but I took quite some time in the filing system until I was moved to the group that gathered information in the country.  I recall working in Zastron and Wepener to get information.

MR LAX: Well what organisations were you allocated to look at?  What desk were you working on?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I gathered information, any information coming, Chairperson, whether it was BCM's information, trade unions, PAC, ANC, any information that came my way I had to gather and take it to the office.

MR LAX: So you were a field officer?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was a field worker.

MR LAX: Correct.  Field workers are usually allocated to a specific desk, so that they can focus their information.  They either work on black power, which includes ANC, BCM, etcetera, or they work separately on trade unions or they work on white organisations, churches.  Isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: What I was trying to explain - yes I understand your question, but I'm saying to the Committee, every information that came my direction I had to gather it and take it to the office, the office would then allocate it to different desks according to the reports that we have written.