Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR DUKADA: In your application for amnesty you had to complete certain portions which are provided in the official application form and now the paragraphs, the two sentences that I have just read at page 57 paragraph b where you say you took orders and executed them because you had accomplish a specific mission. What I am asking you is that statement correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is as it stands, yes it is correct.

MR DUKADA: Who gave you orders?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We got our instructions from our seniors as those who were ordering us our seniors would then explain everything after they having got orders from those who were above them.

MR DUKADA: And in this case what were the specific orders to you about Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As I have said there was no instruction. Whatever orders we got we got at Barkley East. What we were told was that such and such a person, they told us that there are the following people who are supposed to be arrested and their photographs were shown to us. The situation of Nxala we only got from Barkley East. This was not explained to us in Vlakplaas.

MR DUKADA: It doesn't matter Mr Shabalala where you got the orders. What I am asking you what orders did you receive about Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That Ndondo had to be arrested as I have explained and be handed over to the police or Captain Mos would take a decision as to what must happen as the officer commanding. And also the Transkeian police was there who could then decide with Captain Mos. I was a subordinate. It is they who could decide, that is Mos and Dandala as the policeman who was from Transkei. I was supposed to listen to them as to what must be done and I would then comply.

MR DUKADA: So there was no specific instruction that you should kill Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No there was no such instruction.

MR DUKADA: And just coming back again to Exhibit E at paragraph 10.a in brackets. According to you even the very first sentence is inaccurate. Let me read it. You said
"Batandwa was suspected of being an ANC terrorist. He was to be abducted and brought back to the Republic of South Africa for interrogation and possible recruitment as an askaris."
That again is inaccurate because your evidence is that you were to be told by Bra Mos what had to be done about Batandwa Ndondo. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: Now obviously from what you have said to this Committee the killing of Ndondo was not part of your orders or instruction? Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No there was no such instruction.

MR DUKADA: And it was inaccurate in your application for amnesty to say that you were carrying out orders to kill Ndondo?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman could I just request that the question be more specific as to what stage. Because the evidence has always been that there was never an initial instruction but that he followed orders at the time. To say that you had no orders is a misleading because the sequence (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understood the question to refer to the initial stage because the evidence of this witness certainly is that at the time when he ran away Bra Mos issued an instruction that they should shoot at the deceased.

MR KNIGHT: Yes that is my understanding but I think the question was not specific as to what stage and I was just requesting that it would be made specific as it pleases Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala I am not trying to confuse you. When I talk about orders or instructions I am referring to the stage of the planning. That is before the killing of Ndondo.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The planning of his death as I said I did not know about who planned. I did not hear about any planning of the ultimate killing of Ndondo that happened then.

MR DUKADA: Now at page 57 at that paragraph b when you say "we took orders and executed them," are you referring to what was said by Bra Mos during the stage of shooting?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Because he had started shooting it said we must shoot in order to recapture him. Because there was no way we could re-arrest him. When he shot and I followed suit, I shot too.

MR DUKADA: Mr Shabalala can I ask one thing from you. Why are you applying for amnesty?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: My reason you see firstly as I was here in Transkei I saw that all of this happened during my employ. I did not simply take a decision from Pretoria to come and kill a person here. It was in the line of my work.

MR DUKADA: Now can you turn to page 50 of the bundle? Page 50 I am interested in paragraph 40. There you say paragraph 40
"Captain Mos then got out of the Kombi and immediately started shooting at Batandwa. Shosha followed and also began shooting at Batandwa. The Transkeian policeman and I also got out of the vehicle and also shot at Batandwa."
Do you get that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I do.

MR DUKADA: Is that what you are still saying before this Committee?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't say so. Shosha did not exit the car. It was Bra Mos, myself and then the Transkeian police. Shosha did not leave the car. She only left the car after we had already captured the man, taken him back to the car.

MR DUKADA: Mr Shabalala did you understand the question?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Please repeat it I did not hear it?

MR DUKADA: The question to you is; is what is contained in paragraph 40 of your affidavit correct?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) answered and said that the sentence which says: "Shosha followed and also began shooting at Batandwa," is not correct. It is a mistake. Because Shosha did not leave the motor vehicle until after they had returned with the deceased to the motor vehicle.

MR DUKADA: Yes thank you Mr Chairman. Can I just clarify that with witness if the Committee could bear with me. In other words Mr Shabalala are you saying that Shosha never fired at the deceased?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No she did not even fire anything. It is the three of us who shot at the deceased. Shosha did not take out her gun. She was holding the iron cuffs and she also had a small pen knife. I don't know what she was doing with that knife.

MR DUKADA: You see Mr Shabalala according to the doctor's post mortem report amongst the injuries the deceased sustained were three bullets wounds which were fired on the front body of the deceased. In other words it appears that the assailant was facing the deceased at the time the shots were fired.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't remember. I remember him facing us with his back going that way.

MR DUKADA: Yes but what I am saying that is what is said by the doctor. In fact Mr Shabalala just to be brief on this aspect of the injuries the deceased sustained 15 bullet wounds according to the doctor. Of course some of them are exit wounds and some of them are entry wounds. But he says he sustained 8 bullet wounds, that is entry wounds and 1 of them was lost in the body. Can you explain how he sustained all these bullet wounds?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say it could be that way because we were shooting. There were three guns there shooting. There were three guns used in the shoot out. I was holding a 9mm, Uncle Mos an HMC, Dandala also holding a 9mm. So all of those guns had bullets that were not equally big or long. So in the process of shooting all of these guns were blazing away whilst we were following him.

MR DUKADA: In fact this was a shooting to kill not to recapture the deceased. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: You see there the way he was being shot it could have happened that he was going to be killed. But our intention was to stop him. It happened that he did not stop running away. We then continued shooting until he fell.

MR DUKADA: If your intentions was to recapture him why did you not fire a warning shot to alert him about the danger of escaping from lawful custody?