Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

MR LAX: Well you see, how would he have then told you that they would have been all at ease and so on, at the third pay point, there would have been no money left by the time they got to the third pay point?
	So your letter then doesn't add up with what you are saying?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is how it may sound, but what I am saying is Luthuli didn't know where and when we were going to carry out this mission.  What he knew was that when the opportunity arose, we would carry it out.  He didn't know what other objectives we had, because he did not even reside in our township.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lax, Mr Hlengwa, why was Luthuli included in the plan at all?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It is because he actually gave us an idea of how we were going to achieve our mission, and we used him for that reason.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what I can't understand is that you said that and I want you to explain it to me, you said that you, Mdluli and Dlamini were at the first meeting, when this whole thing was planned.
	Dlamini only joined you on the morning of the 23rd, that is the day of the actual robbery.  The 20th, is it?

MR LAX: The 23rd.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean Luthuli only joined you on the morning of the 23rd, the day of the robbery.  How did it come about that Luthuli joined you, I mean you three have a plan, it is the actual day of the robbery, the day that the pensions are being paid out, you have already planned, you are going to hit one of the pay points to get your weapons.
	And then suddenly on that very day, along comes Mr Luthuli who thinks that you are going to rob for money.  First of all how did he get to know about the plan to arrive at that thought of his, and if he wasn't told by one of you, well, if he was told by one of you about the plan, why did you tell him to come into the plan?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: As I was explaining before, Luthuli was a member of the team that was escorting the people who were paying out the pension money.
	He then discussed this with Dlamini and Mhluli about this.  Dlamini and Mhluli gave me the information that they had gained from Luthuli, Luthuli had told them about the money that they were escorting to these different pay points.
	Dlamini and Mhluli told me about the money that they were escorting to these different pay points, and they told me that this was an opportune moment that we actually get these weapons, but we agreed that we should not tell him because he came from that Ndwedwe area.
	Luthuli would be under the assumption that we were going to rob those people for money.   We therefore did not tell him that we were only going to rob these people of weapons only.  When he arrived on the 23rd, he was just coming to confirm that indeed we were going ahead with the mission.
	That was how he got involved.

MR LAX: Well you see, Luthuli and Nqobo testified against you in court, didn't they and they gave a detailed description of the planning of this thing.   You haven't told us about Nqobo at all?
	How did he come to know about all the details of your plan?  You haven't said a word about him being involved anywhere, yet he was at your meetings, and he gives a long story about where his firearm was, etc, etc.
	Do you remember all that evidence, you haven't said a word about it?  Why?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I don't remember Nqobo, who is that?

MR LAX: I will find the right place for you, just one moment.

MS THABETE: Page 351.

MR LAX: I will find you the right name, I am sorry, I am getting  confused between Nqobo who was working for the Department of Justice and another person, who was in on the planning, just one second.
	I just want to make sure, but I think it was Kambule rather than Nqobo, I am getting confused between the two.  He was the man with the sore ear who didn't go on the mission, because his ear was sore, and whose firearm you borrowed, do you remember?  You haven't told us anything about him being involved in this.  Why?  He was involved in the plot from the beginning?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I did not think of him, because he was not even present when we carried out the mission.  I have just forgotten about him.
	Even when we held our discussions, I don't remember Kambule being present.  I thank you for reminding me, because he knew what was going to happen, but he did not accompany us to the mission.
	I only mentioned the names of the people who were actually involved from beginning to end.

MR LAX: You see Kambule like Luthuli, testified that you were there to rob the money, he didn't know anything about the firearms.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is what he knew because he was not amongst the people who knew about the firearms.  Kambule came from Pietermaritzburg and he was not involved in these issues of political conflict.
	We were the people who were after the firearms, because of the situation that we were involved in at the township.  He and Luthuli were only concerned about the money, because they were not involved in any political conflict.
	That is why we kept them in the dark, and did not tell them.  We also did not tell them because this was dangerous and sensitive.  We might put ourselves at stake.

MR LAX: You told us in your evidence, when you got there, the policemen were patrolling with their weapons, do you remember that?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: In your letter you said they were sitting in their car, in their van?  Please explain this to us?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Okay.  There was one policeman who was patrolling, he was going up and down, but the others were in the car.
	I did explain that one of them was patrolling at that last pay point.  The other policemen were seated in the vehicle and the door was open.

MR LAX: Why did you just confirm your earlier evidence that the policemen were patrolling, plural nor singular?  I have just confirmed with you your earlier evidence that they were patrolling, not he was patrolling.
	And now that I point out the contradiction to you, now you seek to give me an explanation.  You see the other thing you haven't told us, is that one of the policemen fought with one of you, they fought over his firearm.  It is in the evidence in the judgement, Khuzwayo.  You haven't said a word about anybody fighting with one of your colleagues?
	It was on the verandah, you would have seen it if it had happened?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Let me first explain the issue of the police patrolling.  At that first pay point, there were a lot of policemen patrolling, but at the last pay point, there was just one who was patrolling.

MR LAX: Yes, we are talking about the last pay point, we are not talking about the other pay points.
	You know that very well.  Tell us about Khuzwayo, why did you forget to tell us anything about somebody fighting with Khuzwayo?  Who fought with Khuzwayo?  Which of your colleagues fought with Khuzwayo over his firearm and then shot him or stabbed him?  You don't know?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: That was the evidence that was presented in court, and that evidence was not true.  I think because they were trying to protect themselves.  There were a lot of untruths that were mentioned in court.
	I am only concentrating on what actually happened.  There are also other things that we omitted to mention in court, which I have mentioned here.  I did not witness Khuzwayo fighting with anybody.
	I did not see any policeman fighting with anybody.  The person just turned and then Mhluli shot him and he fell.  They did not struggle over any firearm.  That is what I saw.

MR LAX: Why would they have lied in court about a case where it is clear you shot, or when I say you, I mean you in the plural, shot and killed two of their colleagues?  They wouldn't know why you had gone there, why would they have to make up a story about being attacked?  It is what happened?  Why would they lie about it?