Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Here is a person by the name of Danster who made an affidavit, do you know this person?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I know him.

UNKNOWN: Where was this person stationed?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: During this time relevant to Mr Kondile's detention at Jeffrey's Bay he was working at the same security branch in Port Elizabeth as I.

UNKNOWN: Mr Danster, according to your knowledge, did he interrogate Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: And according to what you can remember, when did Mr Danster, for the first time, have anything to do with Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was after I had received an instruction from du Plessis that Kondile should be detained in the barracks.

UNKNOWN: That is what has been referred to as the white single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Then Mr Danster was brought to assist you so that there would always be one person with Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Raath did you ever assault Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: And if you had done that are you aware that you could apply for amnesty for that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever see Mr Danster assaulting Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: In any case you were busy saying that you also participated in Mr Kondile's interrogation, what else do you want to add to that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can just mention that during the time of his detention Kondile conveyed certain information to us, he identified certain things.  One important identification was in Transkei.  We took him there and he identified two people working in a bank and if I can remember now they were his contact persons who during the smuggling of explosives ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman forgive me for asking you but would you switch off your microphone please.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I am so sorry.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Well it wasn't you that was making the noise, I think it's my witness that is making the noise.  Please don't touch the microphone please.
	Can you remember who those persons were who were identified by Kondile in Transkei regarding the smuggling of explosives?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't remember their names now.

UNKNOWN: But there was an attempt to arrest them but they got away we've heard that evidence.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Regarding you, what was Mr Kondile's status, did he belong to any organisation according to your information?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes during my interrogation of Kondile it was evident that he was a trained terrorist.   And also a courier between Lesotho, Transkei and the Republic.  And that he was trusted by Chris Hani.  He was an MK commander.

UNKNOWN: And would you say that Mr Kondile was also, besides being a confidante of Chris Hani also a member of the ANC?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Sizwe Kondile was also, besides being a confidante of Chris Hani, also a member of the ANC, he was a trained terrorist.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct to say that you became aware that Mr du Plessis was busy to recruit Mr Kondile as an informer?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes, that is what he told me, that he was busy to have long discussions with Kondile and to recruit him as an informer.

UNKNOWN: From that moment what was your contact with Mr Kondile afterwards?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: After du Plessis had told me that he was recruiting him as an informer I withdrew.

UNKNOWN: Why did you do that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was the general practice at the security branch that you do not interfere with somebody else's informer.

UNKNOWN: An informer has either one or two handlers, you were not one of them?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You also became aware that something had gone wrong with the deployment of Mr Kondile as an informer.  What was mentioned to you.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Capt du Plessis approached me and told me that he found that Kondile was smuggling information from the cells to the ANC.  He did not provide any details.  That created a large problem because certain sensitive information regarding informers and information channels were conveyed to Kondile.  Because of this sensitivity of this matter it was decided that Kondile had to be eliminated.

UNKNOWN: In any case afterwards is it correct to say that Mr du Plessis spoke to you again regarding Mr Kondile, and here I refer to the instance when Kondile was already being detained in the white single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: What occurred during that discussion?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That was during the stage when he was in the single quarters, he told me or instructed me and Danster, after he had told me that information was being leaked and that would harm his intelligence network and he said that that person had to be detained there.  Nobody should have access to him and I should see that no information would leak from that quarter.

UNKNOWN: I just want to interrupt.  You later met Dirk Coetzee?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: As far as you know was he at any stage in contact with Mr Kondile while he was being detained in the single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: Afterwards Mr du Plessis approached you again ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser I am not sure, but is the evidence that he was in the room with him or that he just passed by.

UNKNOWN: Mr Commissioner as we understand Coetzee's evidence, his provided evidence, he said that he and Nick van Rensburg went to the police cells in Jeffrey's Bay and he gave evidence that he and van Rensburg walked down a passage and there in one room he found two people.  One was a black security officer ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Yes I know he went down the passage, I just think he passed by the door and I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think your question to this witness was not that, your question was did Dirk Coetzee have contact with Kondile, and he says no he didn't have contact.  It was never put that Dirk Coetzee had contact with Kondile.

UNKNOWN: Thank you for pointing that out to me Mr Chairman, it's my mistake, I stand corrected and I appreciate it.
	Mr Raath while you were busy with Mr Kondile to guard him according to instructions, did you ever see Mr Dirk Coetzee with Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr du Plessis talked to you again and what did he tell you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Capt du Plessis gave an instruction in the form of a request.

UNKNOWN: He said he requested you to assist him.  He also afforded you the opportunity to consider the matter and a day or two afterwards you came back to him and said that you are prepared to help him.  You just said that you regarded that as an instruction rather than a request?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And exactly what did Mr du Plessis tell you?  Did he tell you that they had decided at a higher level that Mr Kondile had to be eliminated?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And what was the reason why you had to accompany them?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: The reason was that I had to drive the vehicle with Kondile in from Bloemfontein on.

UNKNOWN: Let's be honest Mr Raath, can you remember the dates when those things took place from memory?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It's very difficult from memory.

UNKNOWN: So we leave the dates aside.  On a specific day is it correct that you left with other people to Bloemfontein?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct?

UNKNOWN: Who were the other people?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We travelled with Nick van Rensburg, Colonel du Plessis, the deceased Kondile and I myself.

UNKNOWN: And with whose vehicle did you travel?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: If I remember well it was Capt du Plessis' vehicle.