Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	Sir, is it correct that the previous four consultations between yourself and me was restricted to the time that we met at the TRC hearings, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that include the whole of Tuesday?

MR SAMUEL: No, Mr Chairman, because he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because we did not sit on Tuesday.

MR SAMUEL: We did not sit on Tuesday, but till that time.  Thank you.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax, any questions?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mbane, you were positioned on the veranda at Winkelspruit and you say that you could hear people talking inside and you couldn't discern exactly what they were saying, but you could hear voices talking and you say that you could hear Ms Kubheka crying and screaming, correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Could you hear any other noises besides that, any other sounds?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember hearing any other sound.

MR LAX: You see there's some evidence that Ms Kubheka was being hit with a plastic object, or a rubber hose of some description, or a sjambok-like object and there were sounds of those hits that could be heard outside the building.  There's evidence of that.  If you were on the veranda you would have heard those sounds.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I could hear was her screams and voice of people that were talking inside, that is what I heard.

MR LAX: So you didn't hear thuds of someone being struck?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me a moment, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: While you're looking, perhaps I can ask.
	You said that you, Mr Radebe and Mr Dube were sitting on the veranda drinking from the time that you arrived at Winkelspruit, and then as far as I can recall was what you did after Radebe had gone to the kombi you and Dube were still on the veranda and you were still drinking, is that right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were drinking for a fairly long period.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were drinking whisky, straight?  Straight whisky or mixing it?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were mixing it.

CHAIRPERSON: And what sort of tots were you pouring?  Why I ask, I've heard of these police tots and Vlakplaas tots, that two fingers is like that and you pour the bottle and you count to three or four and then that's a tot.  Is that the sort of tots you were drinking or can you describe what you were drinking?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember Chairperson, but we were drinking because Dube was an occasional drinker, so I cannot remember whether we were using the Vlakplaas style or some other style.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't say how much you drank that night?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I can't say.

ADV BOSMAN: On that, had you been drinking during the day as well or not at all?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we started drinking when we arrived at Winkelspruit.

MR LAX: Just while we're on this question of drinking, it seems as if you and Radebe and sometimes Dube, drank quite a lot, is that a fair thing to say?  Did you drink liquor often?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, we would drink liquor often.

MR LAX: You also said liquor was freely available at the camp.  Did you have to pay for it?  Who paid for that liquor?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know who paid for that liquor because food and liquor was there all the time.

MR LAX: Did you drink often in duty?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR LAX: Did you drink often on duty?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We would drink on certain occasions when we were free, but when we were on duty we wouldn't be drunk but sometimes we'd drink.

MR LAX: Now with regard to the period after Ms Kubheka died and her body was taken away you said you remained in the area for about three days and you were supposed to go back to the house to find out what was going on, but you decided you didn't want to do that.  Did I understand that part of your evidence correctly?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And you said Joe wanted you to go back to the house.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I can still remember well, Joe did not want me to go back there.  If I can still remember well.

MR LAX: Who gave you instructions to go back to the house?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was the Commander of the operation, Botha.

MR LAX: It was Botha.  Because that's more-or-less in line with what we understand about a dispute between Botha and Coetzer around you possibly going back to the house, but when you testified your evidence was that Coetzer was the one who said it.  I don't know whether you were making a mistake or not, but that was my clear recollection and my note, and that's why I'm canvassing this issue with you.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If my memory serves me well, Botha wanted me to go back to that house, I reported to Coetzer that I did not want to go back there.  If I can still remember, because this, Chairperson, happened a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: My note, this is just my note of your evidence-in-chief, right at the end of it, "the next day we were told to remain there.  On second day told to go to D's(?) (that D is the deceased's house) by Coetzer.  I refused.  I phoned the house, a lady said the deceased was not there.  On the third day we went back to Vlakplaas.  That's Dube, Radebe and myself."

MR LAX: Yes.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Maybe I made a mistake concerning the names when I was answering that question.

MR LAX: So you're sure it was Botha who wanted you to go there and you told Coetzer you didn't want to go there and then you phoned instead?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Are you able to recollect whether there was a dispute between Coetzer and Botha around this issue of you going back?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, there was a dispute concerning that because one wanted me to go back and one did not want me to go back to that house.

MR LAX: Now just one last thing, this Gipsman that you worked with, this man with the plaster of paris on his leg, who was he, where was he from?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know his name, but what I know is that he was trained and he was from outside, because I used to ask him questions about places in Angola and Zambia and he knew those places and he also knew the Camp Commanders of the camps there.  I don't know his real name.

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask a question on that.
	Was his leg injured or was he put in plaster to stop him from running away?  Or don't you know?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He was put the plaster because they did not want him to run away.

MR LAX: So as far as you're aware he was a trained MK operative who'd been captured and was working with you, or co-operating at any rate in your activities, but because they weren't sure  about him they had his leg in plaster of paris?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, they did not trust him at that time, but he was working with us.

MR LAX: And did you see that man again or work with him again at some other point?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not see him again after that.

MR LAX: Who was that man's handler?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Mr Botha.

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mbane, I just want to clear two matters with you.  Who did you regard as the leader of these four political activists with whom you had contact in this time?  Who did you think was the senior person?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is difficult to answer that question, Chairperson, because I cannot say that it was Ntombi who was the leader, but according to my perception, Ntombi was the sympathiser.

ADV BOSMAN: I seem to recall that at one stage you said that she was the leader, this is why I'm asking you this question, it wasn't quite clear to me.