Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Yes, there was a whistle that was blown, I got up and went there, there were a whole lot of comrades trying to put out the fire.   I also started helping.

UNKNOWN: After the fire was extinguished, when the other comrades look for Blanko's assailants, did you go with any group to look for them?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I was left behind where the deceased was.

UNKNOWN: From Blanko's place, did you go anywhere?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: No, I never left, sir.

UNKNOWN: You remained at Blanko's place until when?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: We stayed there with other people until morning.   The Internal Stability Unit came and fetched the body.   After they had taken the body, we heard that some people had been captured and were in a shack.   I then also left with the others to check those comrades that were found.   I found them there, tied up in a rope together.

UNKNOWN: Where were they at that stage?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: They were in a shack, at Block F.

UNKNOWN: And from that shack, where did you go?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: We were waiting for a decision that was to be taken by a commander who had gone to Zone 5, Khumaville(?).  When the commander came back, Mchebe Dondolo, he gave us an order that Comrade Bulelwa was killed by Vips and Tusanang, therefore they must also go into the forest to be killed.

UNKNOWN: Did Dondolo mention Blanko?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Please repeat your question, sir?

UNKNOWN: Did Dondola mention Blanko?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: He spoke of the late Bulelwa and Blanko.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.   Did you carry out the order?

CHAIRPERSON: What happened after that?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: After the order had been given out, they were escorted, yes I was present.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, there's no interpretation, is there ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Would you just hold it, Mr Luphindo, we're just clearing up something please, just hold on for a second.

INTERPRETER: The witness may proceed, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Yes.   Mr Luphindo, would you go back again to the stage when you say you were part of the persons who escorted them to the field, all right?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: The order had already been given out from Comrade Mchebe Dondolo that they should be taken to the forest.   I also had a stick, I was pushing them from behind, I used the stick.   When we got to the forest, Commander Mchebe Dondolo said that they must sit down.  He's the one who was carrying a shot nine(?) rifle, he shot four times.   The other comrades had AK47's.   He said that they must continue and finish the job up, they must be killed, he said, because they had also killed.   They were shot.   After they were shot, some of them were still moving a bit.  The commander, Mchebe Dondolo, gave out yet another order, saying that some of them are still moving, alive.   Those that were carrying axes and spears, they were ordered to finish off the job.   The role that I played was to hit one of them on the head with a stick that I was carrying, after they had been shot.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: After we finished the job that we were ordered by our commander, we left, we went back to the township.   When we got to block F, Commander Dondolo and Comrade Mgetse, they went to Mr Buthelezi's house.   We heard two gunshots, we were left behind standing outside when we heard these shots.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: After that, from block F, we went to block C.  When we got to block C, we came across a young boy called Mtebeleng.   We took him, he was actually taken by the commander.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: We went looking for the shack where he stayed, or where the young men stayed.   We did not find them.   We then turned, or turned back to our own places.

UNKNOWN: Why did you participate in the killing?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I was given an order by my commander.   There is nothing else I could do, I had to obey the order.

UNKNOWN: Did you know or were you told what they had done?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he said they'd killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.   Was their killing connected with the duty of the SDU to protect the community?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Please repeat your question, sir?

UNKNOWN: Was their killing connected with the SDU work of protecting the community?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: No sir.

UNKNOWN: Was the killing connected with the protection of the community, that's my question?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: How?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: The community of Extension 6, Moleleki, Zone 2, had suffered a lot from their deeds.

UNKNOWN: Did you personally benefit anything from killing them?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

MR MAPOMA: Mr Luphindo, there is an information from the side of the families of the deceased
persons that after they were shot at, the families were denied an opportunity to go take the bodies of the deceased persons by the group who killed them.   Do you know anything about that?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: No, I know nothing about that.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.   Mr Luphindo, you said you hit one on the head with a stick.   Do you know which one did you hit?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Mr Chairperson, I had recently arrived in that area, I did not just hit one person in the head, there was a few of them lying on the ground.

MR SIBANYONI: We understand that you were executing an order from a commander.   Now looking back to what happened, do you regret the deeds?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I regret and feel remorse, but because they also killed, I felt even more pain.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata.

ADV MOTATA: Just one.   Thank you, Mr Chairperson.   Mr Luphindo, when you went to Buthelezi's house and the commander and one other person entered, how far were you from that shack of the Buthelezi's?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I wouldn't know, Mr Chairperson, if I had to say it in terms of metres, but from where I'm sitting, the distance is from here to the wall.

ADV MOTATA: Did you know that the commander and the other person were going to Mr Buthelezi's shack?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I saw them going there, Mr Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: How do you reconcile that, Mr Luphindo, because you said you were not long in that area and you did not know these people, how did you know that shack where the commander and the other person went to, that belonged to Buthelezi?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I knew the elderly people, it's their children that I did not know by name.

ADV MOTATA: On your way, was it discussed that "we are now proceeding to Mr Buthelezi's house"?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Correct, sir.

ADV MOTATA: Now you said to us earlier that you hit, there were several people on the ground, you did not know these people, but did you know Mr Buthelezi who was also one of the people shot dead?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I knew Mr Buthelezi, sir.    However, I never touched him.  It is the children that I hit on the head.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Luphindo, thank you, you may return to your seat.   Yes, Mr Madasa?
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Moshe August.

JOSEPH MOSHE AUGUST: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Moshe, how old are you?

JOSEPH MOSHE AUGUST: I'm 32 years.   Went as far as standard six.

UNKNOWN: ...Moleleki in 1993, December?

JOSEPH MOSHE AUGUST: I arrived in Moleleki in May 1993.

UNKNOWN: And where did you move from?