Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: This does not relate to the case that we're discussing here, it's got no relevance at all.  It's some other things that I've applied for indemnity for.

MR WAGNER: So are you saying that regarding other incidents - sorry me Shoke just give me an opportunity.  Are you saying that in some other incidents where you committed some other acts, the answer there is applicable but not at all to the bomb at the Magistrate's Court Johannesburg?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think if you could read in fact my Annexure to this application you will understand it quite well.  There incidences where I've been directly involved and where I've been indirectly involved and this is one of the incidences where I've been indirectly involved.  So there's no way that I can leave the scene in an incident where I've not been directly involved and I told this Commission that I was in Swaziland so I don't understand the nature of your question, maybe you've not read the submission.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke who is Julius Madiba?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Julius Madiba in fact has nothing to do with this matter and I think just rule him out.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke I refer you to page 18 where you stated under oath that you were commanded regarding these activities by one Julius Madiba, who is Julius Madiba?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I say Julius Madiba has nothing to do with this particular matter, that what we're discussing.  Julius Madiba is Mancheka (?), he was an overall commander of the Transvaal if you want to know him.

MR WAGNER: I thought you said that General Nyanda was the overall commander of the Transvaal.  Can you please explain to us where does Mr Julius Madiba fit into your structure?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: If you could read in fact the ANC structures, the submission by the ANC with regard to structures, I think you'll understand that.

MR WAGNER: Can you please refer us to the relevant page?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Sorry.

MR WAGNER: Can you please refer me to the relevant page of the document?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I'm sorry I didn't select the page but I'm trying to locate it here but it is in the submission.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke while you're looking I may be of some assistance, I've looked through the document and I couldn't find the name of Julius Madiba there.

MR SANDI: Does Julius Madiba have any other name Mr Shoke?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Mancheka.

MR SANDI: Mancheka.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman maybe I can also be of assistance, unlike Mr Wagner I do find a Julius Madiba who's also referred to Mancheka ... (end of tape)

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman maybe we should proceed but I would like to state for the record that regarding the part of these annexures referring to ANC structures 1985 - 1990, which should be the relevant part, I can't find the name.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman possibly one should also bear in mind and Mr Wagner might not be aware, that because this application only deals with the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bombing, that the present applicant does intend applying for amnesty for other acts, but they don't form part of this particular hearing so Mancheka's involvement might be in respect of other acts, possibly that should be cleared up first.

CHAIRPERSON: The heading of the page that Mr Landman has shown me is, starts "ANC Second Submission to the TRC Part 2, page 6 of 19.  The following appointments were made in 1981

<UNKNOWN>: Director Mzwaye Pilise (?)", that's at the top of the page and this Julius Madiba is given as one of the - it's 461, paragraph 4.6.1 - "Maputo Senior Organ 1980 - 1983".

MR WAGNER: Yes Mr Chairman that seems to be in respect of the period 1980 - 1983.

MR SANDI: Yes but he says this Julius Madiba had nothing to do with this incident, didn't you say that Mr Shoke?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Exactly.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman may I enquire from you, do you intend having a short adjournment and if so at what time?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke are you ready?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: May I refer you to your application page 21, please.  You will see there you mention another name where you say that when you served in the Transvaal Urban Machinery you were under the command of a Mr Ramose (?).  Can we then accept that he also did not play no part in this incident, or if not what was his position?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think Mr Ramose died a long time ago and I doubt this (indistinct).  When I started in the Transvaal Urban Machinery (indistinct) Ramose was the first commander of the Transvaal Urban Machinery and thereafter Siphiwe Nyanda took over from him and I think you should also bear in mind that structures change, people change their responsibilities at different times.  Thank you.

MR WAGNER: So do I understand you that we may ignore the reference to him concerning the Magistrate's Court bomb of 1987?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think I've made it clear during the beginning of this hearings and people who was responsible are the ones that I mentioned here and nobody else.  Unless if you want to tell me that maybe the commander who died 8 years before an incident happened he can also now be held responsible for an activity that took place after his death.  I spoke of Mr Nyanda that in fact he was already a commander and the brainchild to this operation.  That's all.

MR WAGNER: Thank you.  Can I then refer you to the ANC submission, the one that I have is dated 12 May 1997, and on page - my page 51 Mr Chairman, I think it's paragraph 6 Mr Landman, there's a heading "ANC Structures 1985 - 1990".  Mr Shoke if you can get that in front of you.  Do you have it there?  Can I specifically refer you to paragraph 6.4, it refers to a body called the Politico-Military Committee, PMC.  Do you see that in paragraph 6.4?  Thank you.  And then in paragraph 6.3.1 reference is made to a political headquarters and in 6.3.2 to a military headquarters.  Do you see that?  What role, if any, did this military headquarters play in this incident that we're here for today?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think I don't understand your question because as far as I'm concerned, the military headquarters is responsible for all military activities in fact committed under ex-cadres and I'd therefore say whether they planned it, the operation, or not there's no political leader or military leader whose got self respect can deny or divorce himself from any activity that has been committed by subordinates and that as far as I'm concerned.  When the ANC's made their major submission to the TRC it claimed responsibility for all activities that were committed by it's cadres, but that does not necessarily mean that those people were actually involved in the actual planning, but because they're leaders they've got a moral responsibility.

MR WAGNER: Thank you, so although you didn't answer my question, did I hear you to say that this military headquarters is responsible for the bomb at the Magistrate's Court in Johannesburg in May 1987, all of them, is that what you're saying?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I say there's no self respecting leader who can divorce himself from activities committed by his subordinates, whether he was directly involved or not and the ANC in it's main submission to the TRC claimed responsibility for all activities in fact that were carried out by it's cadres, but that doesn't mean, necessarily mean that Thambo, even if he was in London, was involved in the nitty gritty, but yes because he's a leader, he's responsible for that.  So what you must also bear in mind that the military headquarters was in Lusaka, we had long lines or channels of communication.

MR WAGNER: Can you explain to us, because we're not military men, an operation like this, this bombing of the Magistrate's Court in Johannesburg, would that have been planned at the level of military headquarters in Lusaka or not?