Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: As I said in my first affidavit, what was extremely disturbing here is that I also have children.  We were investigating a shooting incident.  A White person had been shot dead in J-Street the day before where they were digging a trench, Mr Wewege,  he was working for the municipality and we heard information that this shotgun belonging to a policemen who had been set alight, Mr (indistinct), had been used in shooting this White man.
 And while we were here in J-Street this gun was rumoured to be in (indistinct) and it was to the north of Mr Sonwabe's yard in M.  We then stopped and discussed how we were going to go in, when children started shouting from L-Street.  
 At the time municipal police were called Amangundwana or rats and these children started shouting to us.  Hey you Amangundwana and I was driving the van at the time and my partner said to me let me go and look at these children that are shouting at us. 
 He then crossed J-Street and K-Street and he passed a lady who was selling things in a certain yard, called Nothincia.  I then heard a shot and I got out of the van and ran that way immediately.
 And I found him coming out of a gate in K-Street which the lady, the previous witness testified about, which was
facing these children and I asked him what is the matter Khadi and he said I shot and children fell.
 I jumped passed him there and then over the fence and found the one laying near the door and others were scattered near the toilet, it was warm on that day and the child was wet with perspiration.  I then got an umbrella and said to, asked somebody to hold this umbrella over this child while I call some back up and also an ambulance.
 There is a lady that also shouted and wanted to know, Nombenqana, why did you shoot these children.  You are going to bring them back.  And this other lady said no he is not the one that shot them, that man shot them, the one that is smoking and Mpukumpuku was smoking a cigarette at the time.
 And they said that it is that man who is smoking.  I quickly went back to the van to call the other police Captain and asked them to call an ambulance ... (tape ends)  ... quickly came back and they were taken away.  Mpukumpuku was taken to the police station to go and submit a statement about this incident and we were charged, taken to court in connection with this incident and in court I said that I would like the court to go to the scene because there was a dispute over a bush which was near a toilet where the children were and Constable Rhade's statement said that he did not see beyond this bush.
 Back then this bush was still very small, it has since grown very much.  I think the one gentleman on the Committee was present there in that court where this matter was heard, where we went to go and look at the scene of the incident.
 The court went to the scene and measured the distance from where I was seated to where this little bush was and found that this bush was still very small at that stage and
that one could easily see people behind that bush.  And he passed away before this matter could be finalised.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi.

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: That was the inquest, we were not formally charged, the matter that I am referring to was an inquest where he was a suspect.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Koti, you spoke about a 21 Battalion, were you a soldier before you became a policeman?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: When were you a soldier?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: From 1970 to 1972.

ADV SANDI: When did you join the Police Force?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: In 1980.

ADV SANDI: When did you resign?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: In 1993.

ADV SANDI: ; Why did you leave the Police Force?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I resigned.

ADV SANDI: What was your rank at  the time of your resignation?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I was a Sergeant.

ADV SANDI: Were you a Sergeant at the time of your resignation?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: The person you referred to as having said you shot at Mtandazeli, do you know the person?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, I do not know the person.

ADV SANDI: Have you heard about the person?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, I haven't.

ADV SANDI: You have never seen the person?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No.

ADV SANDI: Why would the person say that you shot at Mtandazeli?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I do not know sir because there were so many things that were said about me.  A policeman Madola was burnt at - somewhere in the location and it was said that I was that policeman, and one lady said that it was not.  There were rumours that I was the policeman that was burnt and the one lady said that I was not.

ADV SANDI: Am I then getting the correct impression in saying that it seems that there are people that don't like you very much, that are always associating you with certain events?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: When you are accused of doing something which you haven't done, it is quite obvious that the person doesn't like you.

ADV SANDI: You heard Ms Mdyogolo saying that at court there was a White policeman who was saying that you could not shoot, were you present in court when this policeman said so?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, I did not see him.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear that there was a policeman who gave evidence in court saying that you could not shoot?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, I never saw him.

ADV SANDI: If there was one, would he have been laying?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes, because at that time I had a licensed firearm which I still have up to this day.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much Mr Koti.

CHAIRPERSON: I am trying not to use the word Amangundwana, what does it mean?  Was it used to describe municipal police?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The people working for the municipal police, who
were they working for?  Who was in charge of them?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: They were working for the Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but who did you report to?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: We reported to the charge office, even the dockets were sent to the charge office where people were charged.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assigned your duties to you?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: There were Warrant Officers and Lieutenants who were in charge.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it at the time?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: It was Nel.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that one, the one that is there now, what is his name?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: He is known as J.J. Nel.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you and Constable Khadi left on that day, Nel had assigned you the duty of investigating the shooting of a White man?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you as municipal policemen have to investigate the shooting of these people, was it normal in your duties?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also investigate the shooting of students, school children?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Let me say that mostly where it was said that someone in the location had a firearm and used it, we had so-called expertise in that field.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know about the shooting of school children.  The shooting of a school child, was the investigation normally given to you or did you investigate the shooting of Whites?
 I am trying to define the difference between the
shootings which shootings you people investigated?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Which child are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: The child being referred to here in - Nontle Koliti.

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Nontle Koliti was shot by the policemen whom I was with, how could we investigate this matter if he was shot by my partner?  If I shoot somebody I cannot conduct the investigation, another policeman has to conduct the investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: What I am trying to say is did Nel assign any policeman to investigate the shooting of Nontle koliti?