Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Mr van Rooyen was a businessman baking bread, Mrs Brummer used to work for Score, who sold groceries and inside the Score building was a butchery. But I don't think I've made an allegation that those people were killed because of Mr Hatting or Mr Brummer or Mr Tsembeye.

MR NAUDE: Well I gathered from your evidence that you say that the attacks were not politically motivated, but business orientated.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, that is so, it would appear to be business orientated.

MR NAUDE: And the burning down of the shed of Mr Tjaart Vorster, was that APLA related or business related?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I've got no idea of that.  The burning of Mr Hans Myburgh's farm ...(intervention)

MR NAUDE: How was that related.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I've got no knowledge of that, I just know it was burnt.  I hear it was APLA, I haven't so said that.

MR NAUDE: Okay.  So that could have been politically motivated?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I've no idea, Sir.

MR NAUDE: Fine.  On a next aspect, you said that Mr Hatting at one stage asked you to join him in business.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, that is so.

MR NAUDE: So the initiative came from Mr Hatting, according to you?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

MR NAUDE: Are you sure about that?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

MR NAUDE: Cause I want to put it to you that Mr Hatting's memory, if it serves him right, is that you came to his farm and the discussion took place on his farm, is that correct or incorrect?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, I did visit Mr Hatting's farm, he invited me to go to his farm.

MR NAUDE: So you say you never wanted to be associated with Mr Buyafuti?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

MR NAUDE: You never made contact with him, you never had a discussion with him concerning business?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

MR NAUDE: Didn't you at one stage visit Mr Hatting and Mr Buyafuti at their business and approach them with plans for a joint venture concerning a building over the Spruit?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, that is so.  Can I elaborate on that?

MR NAUDE: You may.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Right.  If we look at the situation of Sterkspruit, my property happens to border Mr Tsembeye's property and my, at that time when I went with the proposed plans it was to develop my side of the property and he could develop his side of the property.  There was no talk of a joint venture, it was more the development of the town situated around our businesses.

MR NAUDE: But I thought you said to the Committee that you never had contact with Mr Buyafuti, you never wanted to be associated with him.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Not in business, Sir.

MR NAUDE: But now you go to him and you want the two of you to put up a joint building.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, no, no, not a joint building.

MR NAUDE: Well my instructions are that you did in fact approach Mr Hatting and Mr Buyafuti and Mr Buyafuti was present when you approached them with the plans of the joint building.  Any comment?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think I've already commented on that, it was not to go into a joint venture, there is a property sitting here and a property sitting there and there is a supposed street linking these two properties which has never been developed, and my proposal, I think Mr Tsembeye at that stage was the Mayor of Lady Grey, of Sterkspruit, I can't remember, I just think so, but it was to develop that street so that I could develop my properties this side and he could develop his properties that side, not a joint venture.

MR NAUDE: And you were in fact in conversation with him about this?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, but not to join him in business, Sir.

MR NAUDE: Well I understand your evidence prior to my corr-examination, that you evaded Mr Buyafuti completely and you never made contact with him.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, alright - sorry, if I gave that impression, I'm mistaken but what I can say is that when the political problems started, because this was long before the political problems, before that time and I think I even mentioned that, somebody asked me was it surprising to join and that Mr Hatting had a business relationship and I said no, it wasn't surprising, to me anyway.

MR NAUDE: Now but it's now all about contact between you and Mr Buyafuti.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Okay.  I had contact with Mr Buyafuti long before the political, his political knowledge became available.

MR NAUDE: Tell me ...(intervention)

MR LAX: If I could just assist you here.  The issue wasn't contact, the issue was, did he have a relationship with him.  That's how the question was originally put by Mr Mbandazayo.  Did he know the man, was he able to - the thrust of the question was how did he know he was anti-white.  That was the context in which that question was asked and ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I also ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, if you'd just allow me to finish, Mr Mbandazayo, I'm not finished.
	What I'm trying to say is that I never understood this witness to be saying he never had any contact with the man, he said the man had come into his shop on occasion, they might have spoken.  What he is saying is that he had no business dealings with him, he didn't know him well, he didn't understand his political philosophy.  That was the thrust of his question.  So what I'm suggesting, Mr Naude, is that to suggest that the witness was saying he had no contact whatsoever with the man is not a fair thing to put to the witness at all.

MR NAUDE: This is how I understood it.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is and the note I made is that he said he could not associate himself with Mr Buyafuti.

MR LAX: Correct.

MR NAUDE: That's right, and he also said that he tried to avoid him at all costs.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I wanted to say that I asked him about a relationship and thereafter whether he had any contact with him or he was seeing him at a distance, and he said
"I was avoiding him at all costs.  I never met him."
That's what ...

MR LAX: Except you misconstruing it again, Mr Mbandazayo, he said the man might have come into his shop and bought something from him.  The implication was that there may have been casual contact of one kind or another, but that he didn't want to associate with the man because of his views, he avoided him in that sense.  It doesn't mean he might not have spoken to the man on the odd occasion.  Really, I mean we're taking a very general statement and we're trying to make it very specific, and I think it's frankly unfair to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The impact, Chairperson through you, I agree with him, he said so, that he might have gone there, but what I wanted to get at, that's why I had to stop asking him the question whether he has never had ... I didn't know that he had business, whether he has never talked as business people, and he said
"I avoided him, I never had contact with  him."
So the impression is that there was never even an attempt to talk to him on any other specific thing regarding business.

CHAIRPERSON: My note again is that he said he tried to avoid any contact with him and he had no personal experience with him, he might have come into his shop and he would have sold him something.  He limited it to that.

MR NAUDE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that was also the impression that I gathered from his evidence, but I won't elaborate on that any further.
	When your place burnt down, when was this?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think I stated I can't remember, it was approximately, may somewhere between five and ten years before the political problems in our area started.

MR NAUDE: And if I understand your evidence correctly then at that stage Mr Buyafuti wasn't an active member in the community?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I think he had his businesses at that time, yes.