Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Okay.  Well of course I wouldn't have direct knowledge necessarily of the actual dispersal of the weapons themselves, except the communication of information as to where they were.
	I was aware during that particular time that I think quite a sizeable proportion of the weaponry that was used by SDU's or that MK operatives linked to SDU's got access to, came from established DLB's in the province, within the whole province of Natal, which had been established during the course of the armed struggle, during the 1970's and 1980's.

MR WILLS: You must remember that you are dealing with non-military people here.  Just to explain in layman's terms, the DLB would be a form of an arms cache and some of these were static places that were established in various parts of the region, is that correct?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Yes.  Dead Letter Box is a generic term that refers to a secure place where things can be left to be picked up by other people.  In other words, it could be a note, it could be a letter, it could be an AK, it could be a grenade, and of course it doesn't necessarily - it is not necessarily a letter box, it could be a whole in a tree, it could be a cupboard, it could be a hidden compartment in a vehicle itself, so that it doesn't necessarily have to be mobile, it could be a drain pipe, it could be any of those things.
	During the 1970's and 1980's, again it has become common knowledge, with the steady intensification of the armed struggle against the regime, a number of infiltrations occurred of both people and weaponry from ANC MK.
	Very frequently you would actually infiltrate personnel, knowing that there would be a cache of arms somewhere that had been hidden in a DLB, information about that DLB of course would be controlled by central ordinance operating outside of the country at that time.
	When MK came back to the country, of course that information came with them so that they would know where established DLB's were, established caches of arms of whatever nature.  They would know what was in those things.
	I also am aware through conversation and since then, of course that some of these DLB's done exist, or didn't exist later when they went to look for them, because a new housing development had gone up on the empty piece of veld or whatever.
	But for the most part, these in the 1980's, would still be retrievable.  In the, when information said the presents are there, it doesn't mean that they are on all occasions have been brought into the province, it would just be, that would be the time that we would receive that information, say in January 1992 or whatever, there is something that you can find, and this particular document will lead you to it.
	There is no indication that that was a new DLB that had been established, it could very well be a very old one.

MR WILLS: So you would get the notification through various means that the presents had arrived, and you would communicate that with Mr Sithole?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Correct.

MR WILLS: And that would be your sole function in that regard?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: In that regard of communicating the information, yes.

MR WILLS: You wouldn't know for example what Mr Sithole did with the firearms?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: I was very aware that Mr Sithole would have distributed them further down the line to wherever they were needed.  I wouldn't necessarily know to whom they went at a particular time, but again as has become clear, all the way down the line the same principles of need to know and where you go, are operating.
	Between Mr Sithole and myself, the communication was extremely simple because we were working at the same office.

MR WILLS: You wouldn't yourself, actually see the firearms, you didn't come into contact with the firearms?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: No, not in that particular method, no.

MR WILLS: As I understand the method, it was also a two way communication.  Communities would through the channels request certain armourments, is that correct?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Yes, the way comrade Chris phrased to me in one of the discussions at the beginning, explaining how the thing was supposed to work, indicated that I was to communicate with military Headquarters, not only to receive information but when requirements were needed here, when a need arose for whatever reason, I would use the same channel of communication to make a request, in other words present a shopping list or whatever to MHQ in that way.
	So, it was a toing and froing if you like, of information.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to the Committee what your role was in regard to the training or political education of SDU's?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: When I served on the first REC, we had a whole range of titles and things, but one of my functions was to perform political education role for the ANC generally.
	However, it was identified, because at that same time I was a member of a structure called the Military Research Group which was an ANC/MK aligned NGO, if you like, operated in Johannesburg, which was part and parcel of the ANC's negotiations around the military transition and military transformations that would need to be taken.
	It was identified that with my knowledge of that particular area and the political education experience, I would be used from time to time, quite frequently as it became clear in the 1990's, to deal directly with communities on the issues of self defence, the policies of the organisation, how the ANC perceived self defence in the overall strategy that we had, multiprong strategy that we had to try and secure democracy in the country.
	So mostly and again because teaching at the University, my time was taken up mostly during the day, a great deal of our work, was conducted at night or in the evenings and that type of thing.
	Comrade Jeff has already referred to the frequent formal meetings, conferences, workshops that were organised by the Regional ANC on an ongoing basis during this period, but besides those, there was frequent contact, not only of individual REC members with different branches of the ANC, but ourselves, myself and Mandla used to travel around very, very frequently or if we were accompanying comrade Jeff, while comrade Jeff is addressing a particular function or meeting on this particular level, we would be having a discussion with other people in turn, trying to instill the types of discipline and organisational skills that were necessary in those areas.
	The major difficulty if I may just add, was - if I can make a comparison with the benign atmosphere of the University lecture hall, it is wonderful to have the time to prepare your lectures and to present them to a class of students, who themselves are allegedly, or have allegedly prepared for that particular class and conduct lessons in that manner.  When we were conducting political education in the Region in Southern Natal, we were doing it on the hoof, there was absolutely no time for the types of deep thinking and seminaring and workshopping that can go on because these were communities under fire and so time was of the essence, and frequently, perhaps the message that we needed to put across, wasn't put across as clearly as it could have been in those circumstances.

MR WILLS: Are you in a position to indicate to the Committee how many consignments of arms that you were involved with in the manner, in the sense that you communicated the information through to Mr Sithole?