Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MR DORFLING: I would just like to refer to the portions of the record where the witness at the time of the inquest said exactly the opposite as well. Where he said I did not see shots being fired from amongst the marchers at the guards. I am specifically referring to page 3736 from line 15 to 26. And also page 3711 line 4 to 6 where he responded in the negative that he did not see shots being fired from amongst the marchers in the direction of the security guards. I think I have referred to all the portions of the record where he responded in the positive. I have now also referred to the portions in the record where he responded in the negative.
	In conclusion Mr Llale I want to put it to you that from these portions of the record it is quite clear that you are not only contradicting some of the evidence you gave at the inquest here today but you also at the time of the inquest contradicted yourself because you were being untruthful as to what you saw. Would you like to respond to that?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At the time of the incident I said I was confused. I was panicking. So in my mind when I was looking at the things I thought things were happening the way I saw them. That is why at one stage I would say if I say they were not shooting I am referring because the questioning you are not going to the actual question. The questioning was did you see them firing as Mr George Bizos has asked did you see actually the bullets coming out of the gun. This is I was saying, that is why I said no I didn't see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Any way it has been put to you that you have given an account which according to counsel is different from the evidence that you have given and it is being suggested that, that difference is due to the fact that you were untruthful. Your answer to that is you say that at that time you were confused and you were panicking because of what was happening. That is the answer you gave?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you take that any further? You may argue that it was not panicking. You may argue that he was untruthful.

MR DORFLING: Were you confused at the time of the inquest proceedings Mr Llale?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I was not confused but I was under pressure.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, that is a difficult question isn't it? You see an incident, an incident that is taking place very, very quickly and you have an impression of that. When you are giving evidence you are giving evidence about the mental picture you have and that picture you have got is a picture of a man who is confused and who is panicking. So the evidence he will give at the inquest will be the evidence that his brain conveys to him as the picture that he saw. He may not be lying. He may have a faulty recollection of what he saw. Now I think you should appreciate that when you formulate your questions.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest (...intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: You were under pressure from what?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The line of questioning in that inquest was not the same as they are doing here. They were shouting at us and when we answer they will say: "We don't want an explanation just say yes or no." So you will be under pressure and say yes to something else and the next thing you are saying no to that same thing that was questioned earlier on. And there was I don't know something like 6 people who were questioning you on that day and didn't even want explanations. You just say yes or no. This is what they were doing in that court.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair in response to a comment that has just been passed by Your Honourable Chair just previously. What I was putting to the witness is not simply that hi perception at the time was different from what actually happened. What I am putting to the witness is that at the time of the inquest he gave two different versions as to what his impression was. His one impression was there was not shooting from the marchers at the guards. And his other impression was there was shooting from the marchers at the guards. Now the proposition I am putting forward is both those impressions can't be right. One can't have two impressions of what transpired at the same time. If one's impression is incorrect that might well be so but one can't have two different impressions and try and put forward that both of them can be correct. One can have only one picture in your mind as to what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes proceed.

MR DORFLING: Now Mr Llale can we go back to the time when your attention was drawn to the crowd coming into de Villiers Street in the direction of Shell House by Mr Jakwe Molefe. Where exactly was the crowd at that time when your attention was drawn to them?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Maybe I won't be accurate but they were in the middle of the road.

MR DORFLING: They were in other words still approaching towards King George Street but roughly between Wanderers and King George Street in the de Villiers Street block is that right?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry do I understand that to mean in the middle of the intersection then? Not? Am I confused?

MR DORFLING: The middle of the block between Wanderers and King George Street. Is that right Mr Llale? They were coming from the Wanderers Street side in an easterly direction towards Shell House and they were half way down the block approaching King George Street?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I might not be right but I think if my recollection serve me well they were somewhere there.

MR DORFLING: I am not trying to pin you down to a specific point but they were still approaching the intersection.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you at that point in time have a view of the vicinity of Jabo's Bakery?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes it was very close to us at that time.

MR DORFLING: Could you see it clearly?

MOSES VELI LLALE: From where I was with Jakwe I could see it clearly.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any members of the ANC guards being positioned on that corner?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Not that I can recall.

MR DORFLING: Is it possible that there were certain ANC members positioned on or in the proximity of Jabo's Bakery whilst you didn't see it?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Maybe I don't know.

MR DORFLING: Is it possible that there could have been ANC guards positioned in that vicinity and that they could have fired shots at or in the direction of the crowd without you seeing it or hearing it?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't think if I was there in that corner at that time I would have seen that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you cannot recall whether the ANC guards were in the vicinity of the bakery?

MOSES VELI LLALE: He is talking about the shooting. I am saying if there were people at that time who shot towards the marchers I could have seen that because already I was at that corner. I don't know whether I am contradicting myself but I am saying if because by then you asking if I was in that corner I am saying yes they were in half way. But if there were people who shot to the marchers I would have seen them that time.

MR DORFLING: You see because there was evidence by Mr Eddie Khumalo and Mr Mondli Zuma that approximately at this point in time when the marchers were approaching down de Villiers Street from Wanderers Street there was shooting emanating from the crowd in the direction of Mr Mondli Zuma and Mr Eddie Khumalo and that one of them retaliated and fired back at the crowd. You didn't see that happening?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I didn't see that happening but earlier on before I went to that corner we did hear some shots fired approximately at that place but it was before I went to that corner.

MR DORFLING: Is it your evidence that if that happened it might have happened prior to you reaching the corner?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.