Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

MR LAMEY: Then I would just like to deal with this aspect, Mr Nortje states in his affidavit that you, Van der Westhuizen and Anton Nieuwoudt drew a great financial benefit from this operation and I would like to put it to you that Mr Nortje will give evidence that this is something which he heard subsequently during a discussion, he cannot recall exactly when and who the person was who mentioned this to him.  He said it may have been you or somebody else at Vlakplaas, however, he states that he will give evidence that there was no direct transfer of money upon the delivery of the weapons or any mention thereof beforehand, any mention of remuneration for you or any other members of Vlakplaas or for Nieuwoudt, before the operation.  With regard to this he is in concurrence with your evidence, however, he maintains that he heard subsequently that you and Nieuwoudt and Van der Westhuizen had drawn financial benefit from your participation in this operation, and from this discussion which he heard, he drew the inference that it had to do with this attempted coup in which he had been involved, but he says that it could also be possible that this is in reference to the other incident, which you have mentioned, which would appear to be the later attempt.

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, no remuneration was given to Vlakplaas members, not in the first or the second or the third attempted coup.

MR LAMEY: Yes, I agree with you that there was no prior talk of remuneration, all that he maintains is that he subsequently heard from a discussion that you had received remuneration, but in the same breath he is not certain whether his inference has to do with this operation, or that it has to do with another incident.

EUGENE DE KOCK: I can confirm surrounding the remuneration for Nieuwoudt, I am not saying this out of malice, I am quite fond of the man and I have a lot of compassion for him.  With regard to Van der Westhuizen, I cannot say anything, and I must just mention that for Vlakplaas, there was no remuneration.

MR LAMEY: When you speak of the benefit for Anton Nieuwoudt, are you speaking of this specific operation or the ... (tape ends) ... the later operation with the missiles and this is when money was received?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje states that the plot which you later purchased was in your name, but that you transferred it to him in 1992 before the dissolution of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I can't recall whether this was before the dissolution of Vlakplaas, it existed until the end of March 1993.

MR LAMEY: Or at the state during which the dissolution of Vlakplaas was tabled?  I am not speaking of the date of the specific dissolution, but I am referring to that time period?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, I was still working and operating from Vlakplaas.

MR LAMEY: Mr De Kock, then I would like to refer to your evidence with regard to the house which was purchased for Mr Klopper.  I am not representing him in these proceedings, however, I do represent him with regard to other amnesty applications.  He mentioned or you mentioned that his motive for asking you to buy him a house was some form of blackmail.  I would just like some more clarity regarding that, I have no instructions with regard to this matter from Mr Klopper, but I would like to mention that I will receive instructions from him at some point in time.  Do you believe that blackmail was the motive?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, it appeared that way.  It sounded that way because his precise phrase was and I can recall it specifically for that reason, it was whether I couldn't help him the way I had helped Willie Nortjie.  However, he wanted cash and  I told him that there wasn't anything such a cash and that he could take the house, which he did.  I could find myself in the problematic position that it would scarcely have been possible for me to help one person and not another, ultimately I ended up helping everybody at Vlakplaas and I will give explanation later on as to the various reasons for this.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey.  Yes, I see it is just past one o'clock, this would be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment, we will adjourn until between quarter to two and two o'clock for lunch.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malan, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?

EUGENE DE KOCK: (still under oath)

MR MALAN: Mr De Kock, upon a question of Mr Lamey you answered that it was your impression that Colonel Duli was in charge of the operation, that he had worked it out, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I stated that he had already, or at least it appeared that his planning was finished, that he had already completed his modus operandi.

MR MALAN: Would it be correct to say that Mr or Colonel Duli was in control of this operation?

EUGENE DE KOCK: He would have been in control of the attempt to execute the coup?

MR MALAN: And anything else, any other control?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I would say and this is my unequivocal understanding that Nieuwoudt would have been in charge, because some of the men that were in charge, were agents of Nieuwoudt, they were paid agents.

MR MALAN: That is your opinion?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I beg your pardon?

MR MALAN: That is your opinion, you do not base that on first hand knowledge?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, Anton Nieuwoudt told me that because I was present when he told Sergeant Clive Brink to pay the people's salaries and at that stage they were already sources of the Ciskei Intelligence Service.

MR MALAN: On page 5 of Volume 1 of the minutes you indicate that Nieuwoudt was quite disappointed and dejected and he said that his operation had failed.  Do you mean by that that it was his operation, that he was in full control or was it just an unfortunate choice of words?  Was this an operation in which he had a restricted involvement?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I wouldn't be able to say how deep his involvement had been with that operation.  If he had mentioned that it was his operation, I would accept that he was in charge of it.  That would be my opinion.  And also the fact that he mentioned to me that the operation was not yet finished, that there were four AK47 guns and handgrenades and magazines which were secure, that would still reach Umtata.

MR MALAN: How many weapons did you supply to Colonel Duli with the eye on this operation, I am not asking for specific quantities, just an approximation?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I would say between 60 and 80 weapons of various types and calibre.

MR MALAN: Would this be the sum total of this consignment?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I would say it was either more or less, it is very difficult for me to give you a definite determination.

MR MALAN: In conjunction with what you said to Mr Lamey, it appeared that his plan was already devised and that these would be the weapons that would be necessary for him to achieve his goal?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Those were the only weapons that I could provide him with, I wouldn't say that that was all he needed.

MR MALAN: Do you suggest then that more weapons would have been advisable?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I don't know.  I can't tell you.

MR MALAN: Would it not have been a bit far fetched if it is said that four persons were given four guns, that these people would be able to take over a country with those weapons?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, the way that I understand Nieuwoudt's statement, is that these guns and magazines and grenades and that small operation, was not part of Craig Duli's operation.  In other words these four persons had nothing to do with Craig Duli, although their goal was also to get rid of Holomisa.

MR MALAN: So we have two separate groups, disregarding their sizes, they had the same goal and as far as you know, these persons with the four AK's, did nothing?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, not as far as I know.