Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-30

MR SIBEKO: What did he say and to who?  When he arrived at Gregory's place, what did he say?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He said that he had made a mistake.

MR SIBEKO: He said he made a mistake by doing what?  What did he do that was a mistake?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: By killing him.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that he said it was a mistake that he shot at Gregory, is that what he said, is that what he meant?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Mbuso said that it was a mistake that he had shot and killed Gregory.

MR SIBEKO: Is that all you could hear before you actually removed him from the premises to this circle that you have just referred to?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Other than this incident, what other incidents were you involved in whilst you were still under the command of Mosa Msimango?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: There is no other incident.

MR SIBEKO: Am I correct to state that you said that at some stage you did carry an AK47?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, that is correct but it was taken by Dan.

MR SIBEKO: I understand that at some stage - what I'm trying to find out here Sir, is that besides this incident - I mean we've got evidence to the effect that this violence took place over quite a long time, were there instances where you carried any weapon whatsoever which you used against anybody other than this person that, other than Mbuso?  Any other incident where acts of violence were taking place?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, I would go to the border at times and shoot, but I wasn't sure as to whether I killed or injured any people.

MR SIBEKO: By Mxeleni, are you referring to Buthelezi Street?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Besides the incident at Mxeleni or at Buthelezi Street, is there any other incident that you would want us to know about?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Now the weapon that you were using, is that the one that was taken over by Dan, to an extent that you never had any firearm whatsoever in your possession anymore?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: The weapon that I'm referring to is the one that was used to kill Mbuso.  I was using it before Dan took it and shot Mbuso.

MR SIBEKO: From that point onwards you never had any weapon whatsoever in your possession during the course of the violence?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He brought it back, that is Dan.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to that weapon, Sir?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: ...(no English translation)

MR SIBEKO: Sir, I'm aware that you don't have any firearm with you right now, what I want to find out is where did that firearm or weapon go to?  Was it handed over at the stadium, was it taken by the police, did you sell it to anybody, what did you do about that firearm?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It was taken by the military group, the soldiers.

MR SIBEKO: The incident of the killing of Mbuso and Gregory, when did that happen, which year?  Do you remember?  If you can't remember, say so Sir.  Are you in a position to say when exactly it happened?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I don't remember.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko.  Question, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair.
	Mr Radebe, how many times did you go to Buthelezi Street and shoot?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I don't remember.

ADV SANDI: But you went there a number of times to shoot?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: There were days of rest.

ADV SANDI: Were you shooting at IFP people?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now let us go back to the incident about Mbuso.  When Mbuso came to apologise and said that this was a mistake, is that all he said?  Is there anything else he said other than that?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I do not remember.

ADV SANDI: Was he asked by anyone of you as to how exactly this mistake had come about?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I didn't even want to ask him.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear anyone from your group saying to Mbuso that he was lying, he was lying to say that this was a mistake?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if there was any bad feeling between Mbuso and Gregory?  Was there any ill-blood between the two?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No, they had an agreeable, formidable relationship, Gregory was conducting patrols with Mbuso at some stage.

ADV SANDI: What more did the mother of Mkwanazi say?  You said she had said Mkwanazi was shot by Mbuso, was there anything else she said?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That's all I can say.  What I've said is what she told me.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Radebe.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.  Gregory is Lucky, that's the same person?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And then, the group that went to Xhaba Street, there was Langa Lingwane, Dan Radebe and Bobby Bhani?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: And Bobby.

ADV GCABASHE: ...(no English translation)

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: The surname is Tshabalala, Bobby Tshabalala.

ADV GCABASHE: And then finally, your AK47, you had it all along until Dan took it from you at the circle, is that right?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: In the car it was in your possession.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, it was in my possession.

ADV GCABASHE: And Mosa Msimango did not know that you were taking Mbuso to the circle to kill him, he didn't know before it happened?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He knew it because we had this policy of an eye for an eye, so he was aware.

ADV GCABASHE: You say he was aware, where had he participated in the discussion on the issue?  I'm just confining this strictly to Mosa, was he at Gregory's home when Mbuso came, was Mosa at the office when you took Gregory there?  Because Mosa was not with you when you got into the kombi to go to the circle.  Just explain that to me.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: What led to him being taken to the office, Mosa was present.

ADV GCABASHE: Mosa remained behind in the office and the rest of you took Mbuso to the circle, that's how it happened?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, when you took Mbuso to the circle and when he was killed, were you acting on orders from anybody?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I explained earlier on that there was a hard and fast rule or police, that is you had taken somebody's life, your life should also be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had gone to the office first and from the office you had taken Mbuso to the circle, now when you took him from the office to the circle were you told or ordered to do that, to take him to the circle?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who gave the orders?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: My commander.

CHAIRPERSON: After Dan had shot Mbuso, did he then hand back the AK47 to you?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Dan the only person that shot Mbuso?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he killed there on the scene?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened to his body?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he just shot and then you left again with the vehicle?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, immediately after having taken him out of the car, the driver left with the car.

CHAIRPERSON: So after Mbuso was shot and the AK47 was handed back to you, what did you do, did you then just leave or what did you do?