Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Well it wouldn't have been the first time that security policemen would have been involved in illegal activities, it was about the greater context in which they work.   In other words criminal activities of members in the security police, and especially Vlakplaas, was very often condoned and dealt with in such a manner to prevent them from speaking out against, about the illegal activities
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going on at Vlakplaas.   There was for instance murder cases against two askaris, Bobby Modiba and I can't remember who was the other guy at the moment, which was dealt with in such a way that they got off the hook.   There was cases like, I mean the first priority of us in the security police was security police operations.   I suppose if things got out of hand everyday by the same person they would have decided to make a plan with him and I'm sure, as proved after I left, if you become a security police risk like Brian Nungalungwa(?), he's six feet under after being killed and a policeman being found guilty in a trial of his murder.  The Motherwell Four, three policemen and an askari that was involved in illegal activities with the local security police branch who were blown up in their vehicle.   Major Mos who died of a heart attack,  so-called heart attack but I believe there's now ample evidence that it was not a heart attack but things that were given him by the police.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes but under these circumstances what did you expect Van der Hooven to tell you?

ANSWER: To immediately get rid and cover up of the evidence.

<UNKNOWN>: What did he in fact tell you?

ANSWER: To go ahead and get rid of the body.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you report the incident to any of your other seniors?

ANSWER: I did because after dealing with the body I phoned Brigadier Schoon and in brief told him about it and asked him to release Koos Schutte from the farm for two days so that he could bring the car down of the diamond dealer to the Gulela border post, after I have arranged with a person in Durban I think Ebrahim Latief, I think the phone number
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at the time of Ebrahim Latief it was a well-known source of ours, whilst I was stationed at the Swaziland border, undertook to buy the car for R5 000 and take it through to Mozambique.   Koos Schutte then did bring the car down, fitted with false police, false number plates and licence and third party disks which was printed at the police printing press as explained previously, and a few, a kilometre or two before the Gulela border post Koos Schutte, Captain Koos Vermeulen, Koos Schutte was Sergeant Koos Schutte at the farm, Captain Koos Vermeulen, W/O Paul Van Dyk and myself waited for a short while when Ebrahim Latief, with another unknown gentleman, arrived.   They paid me
R5 000 in cash in front of all the witnesses present, took the car and departed for Swaziland.   I gave the R5 000 back to my mother-in-law and called it a day, told the people to lay off in future of such operations.

<UNKNOWN>: To which of your other seniors, if any, did you report this incident?

ANSWER: It was only Brigadier Van der Hooven and Brigadier Schoon, Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: What was so sensitive about the fact that Joe Mamasela was working for the police?

ANSWER: He was at that stage as yet Mr Chairman, not identified yet by anyone, I don't think one will have to ask Jan Coetzee, Captain Jan Coetzee with whom he was working, and I think there is a report available where it is described that it is sensitive.   He was also armed with an illegal unregistered Tokarev, Russian-made pistol and it was of extreme importance that his identity should not be revealed.   He might at that stage have still been with the ANC, infiltrated with the ANC in Botswana, I won't be able
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to tell.   He was for sure not permanently based at Vlakplaas, only since February 1982 when Jan Coetzee had taken over a month before from me at Vlakplaas, Joe Mamasela was permanently transferred to Vlakplaas and sworn in as a policeman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman this is the only evidence I intend leading on this incident.   I do, however, wish to draw your attention that during the next incident the Lindley shooting incident, certain documents will be handed in, one document emanating from official sources, specifically dealing with the issue of how sensitive the identity of Joe Mamasela is.  That would then just be on that specific issue would then, I would just ask you to see that as evidence having been led in this application itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it not be appropriate that whilst Mr Coetzee is here that you move on to the next item?

MR JANSEN: Yes Mr Chairman, yes there was just the one issue that Mr Tshikalanga is also involved in the Lesotho diamond dealer matter.    I would personally suggest that we continue with Mr Coetzee's evidence and then go over to Mr Tshikalanga if that's alright with you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it would be convenient.
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee in your manuscript you also make mention of a shooting incident that happened near Lindley is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: You make mention of this incident at the same time that you make mention of the diamond dealer?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you just explain to the Committee how
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these two incidents fit into each other and then continue by explaining what happened at the Lindley incident?