Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We were there to give support to the people if any problems arose, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: What kind of problems?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Any problems, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: I see.  Now, are you saying if they are shot at you would have come to their assistance?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: At that stage we did not know exactly where they were in the township, so it would have been difficult for us to reach them, but if a shooting had taken place as had indeed taken place, then they would have come back themselves.  If after a while they did not return we would have gone to go and look for them, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You did not know the township very well, is that so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I did not know it at all, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You did not know where Radebe and his team were going, you did not know where they went to, not so? - precisely in Chesterville.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So in actual fact, if they got shot in Chesterville, you wouldn't have been able to go there and assist because you didn't know where they went, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Therefore, when you were at the bridge you couldn't have assisted them because you didn't know were they went to and you didn't even know the place.  So there - you were sitting there doing nothing and you couldn't have assisted them.  Now tell us the real reason why were you at the bridge.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We sat there and we waited for them, Chairperson.  They went into Chesterville as I said, us white people, if one can call it that, could not go into Chesterville, it would have been very suspicious, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: But Geoff Bosigo is a black person and he never went into Chesterville.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I would not be able to say because I did not see Geoff Bosigo there, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: I put it to you that Geoff Bosigo was at the bridge where Mr Nofomela was and that that's where they were waiting for the people who had gone on foot into the township.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They did not go in there per foot, they went in there with the bus, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: After this incident - you say after this incident this matter was reported to Maj de Kock.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Why was it reported to him?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Because he is the Commander of Section C1, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: But he never gave instructions that people should go there.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The instructions had already been given in Pretoria that we had to go to Durban and we could work in the Durban area as it suited us, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So you want the hearing to believe that a decision was taken to infiltrate and subsequently to take a weapon into Chesterville and after the shooting incident, only then was Maj de Kock given the information.  Is that what you want the hearing to believe?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: What I want to say is the information had been conveyed to Mr de Kock after the shooting incident.  The planning from the police station before we went into Chesterville the first time and then up to the shooting, of this Mr de Kock knew nothing.  The first time that he had any knowledge was when Willie Nortje arrived at CR Swart and reported to him that a shooting had taken place in Chesterville, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And Mr Willie Nortje was under the command of Maj de Kock.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Yes.  I put it to you that your version of the events is far from the truth.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairperson, I was there, I have nothing to hide and this is what I want to give evidence to.

MR RAMAWELE: I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ramawele.  Mr Hugo, have you got any questions?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Vermeulen in saying, and you must help me if I'm wrong, you were also a State witness against Mr de Kock in his criminal trial, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You testified about various charges against Mr de Kock during this trial.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And is it so that on the basis of your evidence that because of that, Mr de Kock was found guilty and he was convicted.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And therefore you applied for amnesty in respect of a whole series of offences in which you were involved during your involvement with Vlakplaas.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: And so it is that during this range of offences for which you've asked for amnesty, Mr de Kock's name appears very prominently.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: He was the person who gave the instructions and he was the main actor in all these operations.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And not at one stage did you hesitate or try to avoid from the fact to involve Mr de Kock in these operations and you said exactly what the part he played in these operations.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: So I accept that the Attorney-General approached you when you were to give evidence against Mr de Kock in the criminal case, and that they also thoroughly questioned you regarding these activities you were involved in, to complete the charge sheet against Mr de Kock.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And I accept that you gave all the information that you had because you knew that you can obtain a 204 indemnity regarding the Criminal Procedure Act, and because of that you had to make a full disclosure.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Did you tell the Attorney-General that an offence was committed in Chesterville?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Did you tell them that they had to prosecute de Kock, because he was guilty of an offence?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And was it only because he was not involved in an offence regarding this incident?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: When you came from Pretoria to Durban, you were instructed to obtain information regard who were involved in killing security policemen in Durban.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: Is it correct to say that the whole Vlakplaas contingent was sent to Durban?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And to the best of your knowledge, this Vlakplaas contingent was divided into various groups, the white members were the group leaders and every group was allocated a few askaris to assist them.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And is it correct to say that Mr de Kock as the Commanding Officer of Vlakplaas, was only the co-ordinator because many of these groups were sent to the field and then they reported back to him from time to time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: Is it also correct - is it correct rather, that the groups who were sent into the field operated on their own initiative because they had to identify where the flashpoints were and to determine which information they could gather?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: So Mr de Kock never told "You to go to Chesterville, there is the problem"?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.