Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman having put the problem to me I'm going to have to tell you that I am obviously on this, it's not sufficient, and on this, he's going to, I know that I'm not going to get more information out of my client but I might need information from another official, which I will have to get by affidavit.  I'm not going to be able to get it today, I hope I can get it tomorrow, but I would ask you that this matter stand down then until next week, in the circumstances.  That's the best I can do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane you are aware that we need to be satisfied that the proper application was made, and that the fact that it's not before us is a TRC administrative problem, as opposed to no fault of the applicant.  You've got to check that.

MR SHANE: Correct Mr Chairman.  By saying that his failure, or the failure of his application to be before you, is due to no act or omission on his part, implies something went wrong on the part of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's precisely the point.  I raise specifically with you that the person whom he alleges received his document, we must also be satisfied that that person was a member of the staff of the TRC.  If that person was not, for example if it was a private attorney, then the TRC is not at fault.  Unless that attorney can prove to us that she or he handed it in to the TRC itself.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman it's quite clear then my position is I have to call that person, I've got no choice.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not advising you what to do, I'm just pointing out my problems to you.

MR SHANE: I, it's quite clear, and all I say is I will do my best to get that person.  That person's not available today, I ask that this matter possibly stand on until Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you do something else for us?  When you're considering this application, because it's not going to be an easy one, you need to pay attention to it and do everything necessary as any attorney should do.  I'll tell you what the normal procedures are, and you may picked it up with other applications, that as soon as the TRC received an application in the form of the roneoed form, the applicant or his attorneys will receive a letter of acknowledgment of receipt of that application.  According to this affidavit, this application is allegedly to have been completed on or about the 10th of May 1997.  One would have expected an explanation as to why enquiries had not been made thereafter about, what about the position of this application.  So in your preparations, one would expect an explanation for that as well.
	Mr Steenkamp there's been an application for this matter to be postponed to next week.  Have you got any comments on that?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman with all respect I don't think I'm in a position to make any comments, maybe save to say, maybe not directly relevant, but I am informed, I was informed as well, yesterday and today, I spoke to Mr Khanyile, one of the victims in this matter.  My only, with all respect Mr Chairman, the suggestion is that when considering this application the rights of the victims must be considered.  That's my only remark if I may make it.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	But regarding the position of postponing it, may we put on record I think it's a common fact that during the time of this application I don't think this specific individual in discussion was a member of the TRC.  I think that's a factual position.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, I've asked Mr Shane to investigate it and to consider it properly in that light.  She may very well have been a member.  This Panel is unaware of it.

ADV STEENKAMP: I withdraw that remark Mr Chairman.  The only thing I would suggest is, regarding the specific application, I'm sure and I would like for the moment just to speak at least to the victims and to hear what their view is on this application, because it can have an effect on their rights ultimately, obviously.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, two days, and I'm going to discuss it with my colleagues, I for one would insist that it's no longer than by Monday, so we're talking effectively a one day difference, or two days if you want to become technical.  That's the best I'm going to do for Mr Shane.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Steenkamp I agree, I mean with all respect I'm in your hands, but the only point basically I'm making if I may, is the fact that I would suggest that the rights of the victims must all be taken into consideration.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what we're going to do if they oppose the application for a postponement, but I want to give you an opportunity to talk to them and explain the position to them.  While their rights are important, the rights of applicants are just as important and we have to draw a balance between the two.  Can we adjourn for five minutes please.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Shane.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I'd ask that this matter be stood down until next week, Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thank you for the five minute break.  Mr Chairman there will be no position from my side until Monday.  I think it's reasonable and give me some time to consult with the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it's far too important to make a decision on the validity of this application without proper information.  There has been an application to postpone this application to Monday morning, and in the interest of justice and bearing in mind the rights of both the applicant and the possible victims in the matter for which he proposes to apply for amnesty, I'm going to grant him the postponement until Monday morning, nine a.m.
MZWAKE BUTHELEZI MATTER POSTPONED TILL MONDAY:
8TH FEBRUARY 1999

MR SHANE: As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I believe there's further applications to be heard today still?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman we're ready.  If you will allow it Ms Nhlayisi will take over immediately without adjourning if that is in order.

CHAIRPERSON: It's teatime, we can start with her after tea.

MR SHANE: As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
 
ON RESUMPTION