Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson one must state that my evidence is based also on what I was told at various times and not only on the basis of the application that is here.  It does not mean that because they had omitted to include it in this application, which I am certain is an admission and it is not because they wished not to apply for it, because they will apply for it and I am sure that Mr Shaik will testify to that and say that he does apply for the operation carried out in 1984 I therefore state that I do apply for that because I know he had stated to me that he had carried out that operation.

MR VISSER: Mr Ismail do you know a person by the name of Isaac Mabaso?  I am sorry, I am sorry, I withdraw that.  I am sorry yes.  Mbane, M-B-A-N-E, Jonas, J-O-N-A-S Masilela, M-A-S-I-L-E-L-A.  Have you ever heard of such a person?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson it rings a vague bell.  I don't know, can you give me further particulars with regards to him.

MR VISSER: Can you remember as you sit here today whether that name was ever discussed between you, your brother and/or Mr Shaik?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson I have asked whether I could get further particulars with regards to this person, because you know you are asking me of a name and I am trying to scratch and say you know where does this come from.

MR VISSER: Alright, well let's be more specific.  In regard to the Roodepoort bomb explosion, is that a name which in your mind is connected to that item 4?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson I state again would that be a victim or someone else?  I don't know in what connection you ask this question.

CHAIRPERSON: But as you sit there now do you know the person ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I may have heard the name, I may have read of it somewhere, I am not certain.  I said - it  may have a vague recollection.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I cannot at this point say you know.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Can I ask you this Mr Ismail.  As far as your knowledge is concerned and in terms of your instructions to the Dolphin Unit were they ever assisted by others that they coopted on their own on some basis or other or were they the two and later only Mr Shaik who carried out the operations on your instructions?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson the units inside the country had the authority to recruit.  They had the right to recruit others to work with them.  They did not report to me and say such and such person was assisting or such person may have assisted.  If we were asked on the case of every single operation that every cadre that came into the country may have lived in a place with someone or gotten a lift with someone and if that is the direction we are going in then I think it becomes impossible for us to say yes we knew of every single thing.  I have stated before that cadres reported on the gist of what they were doing.  They did not report everything blow by blow every single minute of whatever they were doing.

MR VISSER: Mr Ismail please tell us what did Mr Shaik tell you about the Roodepoort bomb?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well basically that he had carried out the operation.

MR VISSER: He had carried out the operation?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did he tell you how?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: In broad terms, yes.

MR VISSER: Did he tell you whether he was assisted by anybody or not?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: As far as my memory serves me he didn't say he was assisted by anybody else.

MR VISSER: Wouldn't it have been the most logical and natural thing in the world if he had been assisted by someone to have told you so?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It depended on him.

MR VISSER: Wouldn't you have expected him to report to you, you being the commander?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, but there are many cadres who did not necessarily report every single detail.

MR VISSER: I am not talking about many cadres Mr Ismail, let's stick to the facts and let's stick to the question.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am talking about what Mr Shaik told you.  Do you understand that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Please.  So wouldn't you have expected him, this trusted person, was he a friend of yours?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: He was, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Still is I suppose?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: This friend of yours, wouldn't you have expected him to be responsible in the sense of giving you a full report?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes but it was not absolutely essential.

MR VISSER: Alright.  I just want to put it to you that in volume 6 there is a statement by the investigating officer in that docket of which a copy is before the Committee, if you will bear with me a moment Mr Chairman I am just looking for the specific page.  I think it's page 34, at page 30 Mr Chairman.  Which seems to suggest that a Mrs Payne of an attorney's firm identified at an identification parade the person by the name of Mbane Johan Masilela as a person who had asked directions to the South African Police offices in the building prior to the explosion.  And we don't know what the end of that saga was because what we know from page 34 is that that very same person was in fact killed in a skirmish with the Police during the same year, 1984, the same year.  So from there my questions, I am not saying, please understand me correctly that he was the one that threw a bomb or planted a bomb, but that was the reason why I asked you whether you knew such a person or whether you had ever received a report about such a person.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson if any person in the street asked for a direction are we to understand that therefore one therefore concludes that that person is necessarily then involved in the Unit?

MR VISSER: I was very specific to tell you that that's not what I am suggesting to you.  I was very specific about that Mr Ismail.  Please don't misunderstand me.  I simply wanted to know, and I gave you an explanation why I wanted to know, whether you had ever heard of this person, that's all.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I said to you earlier it rings a bell.  I may have read it somewhere, right, and that is perhaps where it may have come about.  But as far as this operation goes it doesn't mean that therefore this person, he may have been another operative, I don't know, but that person - it does not therefore follow that that person necessarily was a member of the unit.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Often there were MK cadres that did not know each other.  I don't see how you can draw such a conclusion.

CHAIRPERSON: All is asking is whether you can recall the name Mbane Jonas Masilela as being reported to you or whatever as being part of this operation.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No it was not Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Let's talk about the political objective which the Committee needs to find to have existed in regard to the acts for which you apply for amnesty for, and please if I may try to explain this again, I am only involved on behalf of victims in three incidents and I will make a staunch effort of confining myself to those three.  Unless there is a general question which may affect the others.  The one is the Church Street bomb; the other is the Roodepoort bomb and the other is the Krugersdorp Magistrate's Court bomb.
	Mr Chairman I have found in the Beeld of last week a very useful diagram, I wonder whether I have got a copy which you can perhaps have - perhaps you may find the same help from it that I have.  It's a little organogram which sets out very succinctly exactly - let me just quickly find it Mr Chairman.  I have made copies.  It may save time.  I have one here Mr Chairman.  Perhaps my learned friend Mr Steenkamp, if you are interested in it, can make copies for all of us.  I have one.

CHAIRPERSON: Will the witness need this for purposes of ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Not really Mr Chairman, not really.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Trengove have you seen this?

MR TRENGOVE: No I haven't.