Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think I am going to, Mr Bizos, if you don't mind, I think with regard to this aspect, I think I must ask the witness a question.  You seem to say that in his speech at the Monument - at the Monument, Dr Treurnicht did not call for violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: May I answer, Mr Chairman?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I said, was that that speech  launched the third freedom struggle, which already at that stage  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am talking violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, no, but the freedom struggle was a violent struggle, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you are saying already on the - at the Monument, with his speech at the Monument, he was already calling for violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was already calling, declaring the third freedom struggle - freedom struggle number one  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am sorry, I am talking violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry.  No, not at that stage, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not in 1990.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Correct, yes. So ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He launched the freedom struggle.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And please, I am talking about violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I have no problems with the struggle.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: As such. I understand his speech to be saying that, but you are saying, as I understand you, that he did call for a struggle, but at that stage he had not as yet called for violence to be used?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now you are saying at some stage you came to understand that the CP did call for violence to be used?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now my question is, normally when there is such a major shift in policy, the issue is debated, and if need be, vigorously, within any party. Now did such a debate take place within the Conservative Party between these two periods, between the speech at the Monument and the ultimate speech that you think called clearly for violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there were no official discussions held by the Conservative Party, but if one looks at the overall climate, where the Conservative Party had already in August drawn up their plans for mobilisation, it was clear that they were preparing for a war.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Derby-Lewis, being an experienced politician yourself, would you not have - would you not expect that if the party makes such a major shift in policy, it would have to officially formally debate the issue?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, not necessarily, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh, I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I can say, just in further expansion, Mr Chairman, I can say that the debate about the war was going on virtually in all CP circles.  People were talking, they were asking how can they now participate, what can they do, and you will see already from 1990, as I refer to in Appendix A, Mr Chairman, many people had already interpreted what was going on, even before it was even discussed, and they started blowing things up and performing acts of war.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So should I understand, us understand you to say that because there had not been an official, as you put it, official formal discussion, there had in fact been no official stance taken?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.  As I mentioned in earlier testimony, the only person in the Conservative Party who is allowed to commit the Conservative Party to anything, without obtaining the approval of anyone within the party, is the leader of the Conservative Party, and Dr Treurnicht had done that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.  I just wanted to clear that aspect.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you suggesting, Mr Derby-Lewis, that Dr Treurnicht committed the Conservative Party to violence without discussing it with anyone?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know what discussions Dr Treurnicht had, I wasn't fixed to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: But ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But this speech held at Paardekraal and I have been given the whole speech, Mr Chairman, and what happened at Paardekraal has to be seen in the correct context. It was very clear that the venue of Paardekraal was even chosen for this - the closest that Dr Andries Treurnicht could come to a declaration of war without actually declaring the war, it was clear from this, and, Mr Chairman, it was clear that it wasn't only my perception, it was the perception of many other people, including the media.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us ask you this.  Dr Treurnicht never told you that there was a change of policy to go over to violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Dr Treurnicht told me, Mr Chairman, in terms of the first paragraph of this clipping
"Die tyd is amper daar ..." (The time is nearly there ...)
That was in October already, Mr Chairman -
"... dat die Afrikanervolk gaan uitroep ..." (That the Afrikaner Volk will call out ..."
The Afrikaner nation.  He wasn't talking about the CP - can I please just finish.  That the Afrikaner Volk or nation is going to cry out that it cannot do anything else but to declare war.
	Mr Chairman, who is the Afrikaner volk, the Afrikaner nation? I am the Afrikaner volk.  Those people sitting there are the Afrikaner volk, they are here in support of myself. The Afrikaner volk launched a fund to pay my legal costs, my legal expenses. It was not Dr Treurnicht.  Dr Treurnicht only verified what was in everybody's heads in any case, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will ask you the question again.  Did Dr Treurnicht tell you personally that there was a change of CP policy from non-violence to violence?  Yes or no.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am unable to answer all of these ridiculous questions in a straight yes or no context,  because yes or no is not a satisfactory way of answering it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it may be possible to say Dr Treurnicht never told me or he told me.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he is saying that did Dr Treurnicht tell me personally. In other words, he is insinuating that he expects Dr Treurnicht to take me one side and say there is a war.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer that, just tell him that then.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I also want to say no, Mr Chairman, but I was present when he made the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And he was talking to me as a member of the Afrikaner volk.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right.  We understand the answer.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Did Dr Hartzenberg ever tell you personally that the CP policy had changed from non-violence to violence?  Yes or no.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Dr Hartzenberg's statements are on the record of this court, of this Committee.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer my question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He did not tell me personally, once again.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did any other leader of the Conservative Party tell you personally that there was a change of policy by the CP from non-violence to violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you. Now can we go to the next statement in The Citizen?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Is this page 3?

GEORGE BIZOS: Page 4R.  It is the same section, R3 - I beg your pardon, did I say R4 again? R3, a Citizen article on page 4, subsection (a), page 3.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Subsection (a), page 3?

GEORGE BIZOS: (a), yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Subsection (a), page 3, Mr Chairman, is a Citizen report regarding a reference by the AWB leader to Walus. Is that the one?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 3, right.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: There are two articles on page 3, which one are you referring to, Mr Bizos?

JUDGE WILSON: They run on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Sir, they have to be ...