Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, you've been asked how many comrades arrived at your house and you said you think every comrade in Daveyton.  We don't know how many comrades were in Daveyton, could you make an estimate?  I know you didn't count them, could you tell it was more than 10, less than 10, more than 20 or more than 100 or less than 100?

MR MASUPA: I think there were more than 100, because I couldn't even count them.

MR BLACK: So Mr Masupa, the comrades who came there, after they had heard what had happened, said that they would go out and look for them.  When you say them, who are you referring to?  Are you referring to the people who burnt down your house?

MR MASUPA: Yes, they were going to look for the people who burnt down the house.

MR BLACK: Right, and what happened a bit later, after that?

MR MASUPA: While busy cleaning the house, after about three hours, they arrived.  They had with them one of the perpetrators, Elias Ratone.  They brought him home.  On their arrival some of them, the comrades, said let us burn him, they said let us just burn him and some said, no, let us call the police.
	Now, they were arguing and ultimately they agreed that the police should be called.  Some of the comrades stayed behind with him and some went to fetch the police.  And the police arrived.  They took him with to the police station.
	After quite some time, I think an hour if not two hours, I saw him coming back with the police and camera men, seemingly from the TV and he was demonstrating what he did.  He went into the yard and he opened the metre box that is outside.  This was a demonstration as to what he did while
others went into the house.
	Now the police have the video.  I was at home at that time, just watching not knowing what was happening.

MR BLACK: Did the comrades say anything to you about the other people that they were looking for?

MR MASUPA: After he was taken by the police, the comrades said we were looking for others, but seemingly they couldn't get all of them.  Because I was now obliged to
sleep at home because everybody was now at the hospital.  Now myself and my grandfather's son was supposed to sleep at home.
	The comrades came almost every day giving us reports that they are busy with their search.

ADV DE JAGER: You are mentioning the comrades and you've mentioned there was about, say more than even - it could be more than 100, could you give us a few names of those people, those comrades and the comrades who visited you later?

MR MASUPA: People who came to visit us, I can mention people like George, Nelson, Aubrey, Skeher, these are the people who frequented our house just checking the situation and leaving thereafter.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you say Aubrey Skeher?

MR MASUPA: No.

JUDGE WILSON: What was the name, Aubrey who?

MR MASUPA: It is Aubrey Nqomalo.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR BLACK: And Skeher, is that another person?

MR MASUPA: Yes, Skeher is one of the comrades' leaders.

MR BLACK: Is he a leader amongst the comrades, or was he at that time?

MR MASUPA: He was the leader at that time together with Aubrey.  Presently Aubrey is a member of the Civic Association.  Skeher is also promoted to a higher position.

MR BLACK: This Mr Ndlovu, Phineas Ndlovu, did you know whether he was a member of comrades or not, had you had dealings with him?

MR MASUPA: According to my knowledge as I was also a student at that time, there were meetings that I attended
when I had time, but I don't recall seeing him in the company of the known comrades.  His comradeship that he referred to is not what we knew, it was just a group of gangsters harassing people and disturbing meetings where issues were discussed.
	Issues of the community.  Himself as well as his members were not comrades.  They used to follow the comrades, where the comrades were conducting operation clean up, they would also come and conduct their criminal activities.  If he says he was a common tsotsi I would agree with that, not a comrade.

ADV DE JAGER: And Lazarus, was he a comrade?

MR MASUPA: Lazarus was a comrade before.  That is when he was still at school and he crossed the line, I don't know what happened.  Maybe he was not interested in politics any more, he didn't even attend meetings.
	He was never seen in the company of comrades any more.

ADV DE JAGER: At these meetings, you say they didn't attend the meetings.  Who addressed these meetings?

MR MASUPA: Skeher, Aubrey and them were addressing the meetings.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, you said Skeher, Aubrey and who?

MR MASUPA: Skeher, Aubrey, George were addressing the
meetings.  It depended on the school, it varied from school to school.  They were addressing different schools.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you a comrade personally, Mr Masupa?

MR MASUPA: I was once a comrade.  Even if I wasn't a full time comrade, but I attended the meetings when I had time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, how did one become a comrade?  I think this is what the community would like to get clarification
on, we are a little confused right now about what really qualified one to be a comrade?

MR MASUPA: Let me start by telling you my involvement in comrade activities.  It was when the age limit was introduced in schools, it was at that time when they said when you are this old, and you fail, you won't be in a position to continue schooling, that was the first issue that Aubrey and them addressed.
	Then we attended those meetings then to fight against that, the implementation of that Law.  Then the comrades, the people came together to be comrades to fight for their rights.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So people who were not scholars at that time, could not become comrades?

MR MASUPA: There were people who were not schooling, but they were accepted to be comrades.  Because they were not schooling, they were in a position to attend meetings as others were in classes. ... (tape ends)

ADV DE JAGER: ... shop, and if you come back and assault further people, I will tell the police?

MR MASUPA: How would I inform the police, I could have informed the policemen the minute they started this trouble in the shop.  I just gave them their money.

MR BLACK: Now there is also, okay.  Right, when these people left the shop, Mr Masupa, when these people left the shop, were they angry?  Were they angry at you?

MR MASUPA: I believe they were angry with me because I gave them back their money, I didn't give them what they wanted.

MR BLACK: And you told them to get out of the shop because they are disturbing the peace, is that ...

MR MASUPA: That is correct, I told them to leave the shop.

MR BLACK: Now I want to know Mr Ndlovu comes along and he makes allegations against you that you've got gangsters, that you are assisted by gangsters at the shop?

MR MASUPA: Since long ago in the townships, there have been gangsters.  He is referring to an incident of the 1970's.  The people he referred to were long in jail.  He referred to the gangsters and we were still very young when those gangsters existed.

MR BLACK: Will you listen to what I say Mr Masupa.  We will come to that.  What I said, you weren't present perhaps at most of the evidence given by Mr Ndlovu unfortunately, amongst other allegations he made against you was that at that shop you had gangsters who assisted you and helped you against the comrades.  Is that so or is that not so?  Did you have gangsters helping you?

MR MASUPA: To be honest, who am I to be against the comrades because I was one of them.  I was a school kid, I was part of the comrade, how would I be against them?

JUDGE WILSON: The important part of the question which has been put to you twice now, was did you have gangsters in that shop who assisted you?

MR MASUPA: I never had a gang at the shop.  We only have people who assisted in the shop.

MR BLACK: Now these people who assisted in the shop, what were they?  Were they shop assistants and you had security people?