Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-08

WITNESS:   When they came back from Caprivi they got to a place called Nhlungwane and the preparations that were made or apparently there were no preparations

CHAIRPERSON: /made

CHAIRPERSON: 1B made for their return, so they had to go back to their respective places.  During that time that's when we started to conduct meetings at 121 Battalion.  That's where we were devising some means as to how they were going to be deployed all around the KwaZulu-Natal area.  That's why we put some offices as to enable us to deploy them in those offices and that's exactly what we did.

CHAIRPERSON: [Break in recording].

WITNESS:   That is so.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, I'm terribly sorry.  I forgot to adjust my earpiece so that I could hear the reply.  I heard a lot of Zulu which I don't understand.  Can I just try and find the channel ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you put it on No 2 you'll hear the English translation.

MR MARITZ: I'm getting the translation.  Could the interpreter speak, please, to see whether I've got it?

CHAIRPERSON: Can the interpreter please speak?

INTERPRETER: In English?  Yes, can you hear me?

MR MARITZ: [Break in recording].

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat the question as well?

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Luthuli knows what - you don't want your question repeated, just Mr Luthuli's reply?

MR MARITZ: Yes, I didn't hear him at all.  I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just start your reply again, Mr Luthuli, about where they went afterwards.

WITNESS:   When they arrived they met at Nhlungwane and when they got to Nhlungwane, they were told to go to their places, respective places, because there weren't any preparations made for them to be deployed at that time and later on there was this meeting at 121 Battalion to discuss as to

CHAIRPERSON: /what

CHAIRPERSON: 1B what they were going to do since they have come back.  That's when we put some offices where we were going to deploy them and the offices we put up, they were deployed in the respective offices around Natal.

MR MARITZ: Yes.  Yes, thank you.  Mr Chairman, bear with me, I have to spend a bit of time on this because it's important to me to have a full picture here.  Mr Luthuli, once again, if I'm out in my numbers, nothing turns on it, I'm just working with broad figures, but No 1, there was a unit which was trained for VIP protection and this was roughly about 30 young men in that unit, not so?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MARITZ: When you returned, were those people in fact deployed for that very purpose immediately or virtually immediately to do their job as VIP protectors?

WITNESS:   I will explain in this manner.  After the training at Caprivi, they went first because there were certain courses that they were supposed to attend in Pretoria with regard to the work you have just referred to, so they left before us and when we got to Ulundi later on, they did not arrive with the same group that I've referred to, which was at Nhlungwane camp.  They went straight to their respective jobs, that is the job that you've spoken about to go and safeguard some VIPs from the KwaZulu Government and thereafter I never got any contact with them, but that didn't mean that I did not have any powers to use them wherever they were.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

WITNESS:   But that didn't mean that I had no authority or powers upon them, but at that time they were on the other side, the one that I have just mentioned and the rest are the ones

INTERPRETER: /who

INTERPRETER: 1B who were sent back home so that we could make some preparations for them to be deployed.

MR MARITZ: Now do I understand you correctly that although the VIP bodyguards were deployed to do or to perform that exact function, your understanding was that you were nevertheless still their commander?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR MARITZ: Now the other very large group were the fellows who were involved in contra-mobilisation, not so?  Do you have a figure of how many they were?

MR VISSER: Could I assist?  I've got the exact figures and we don't have to ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, please do.

MR VISSER: They were 114, according to Exhibit 1F handed in before the Goldstone Commission, which is an extract from official documents.  Mr Chairman, there were 28 VIP protectors and may I just see whether I can find the other two figures as well?   The 28 were the defensive group, 114 was contra-mobilisation.  Intelligence was 31 and the offensive group was 33.  Those are the exact correct figures.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: May I just add, where the figure doesn't tally with 200 or whatever, please bear in mind that other people were taken along.  For example, Daluxolo Luthuli was not reckoned to be a Caprivi trainee, nor was Xesibe, nor were the cooks and drivers or whoever were taken along, but those were the Caprivi trainees, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  I think Mr Maritz mentioned that the figures were not particularly important, the exact figures and nothing would turn on
 /them,
1B them, so let's not get too hung up with the exact figures.

MR MARITZ: But while we're about it, Mr Chairman, may I ask from Mr Luthuli whether you would, for our purposes, be prepared to accept these figures which have now been given by Mr Visser?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Now these contra-mobilations fellows, they were deployed all over KwaZulu-Natal, not so?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MARITZ: And I understood from Mr Mkhize yesterday that they had to perform the function which they were trained for, namely to perform contra-mobilisation.  So that was their job?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MARITZ: Now I'm afraid I know nothing about the defensive fellows.  How were they deployed?  Defensive.  The defensive group or the intelligence group or whatever you wish to call them, those 30 fellows, 31 fellows.

WITNESS:   I had already explained that they were one group now at that point, that is the contra-mobilisation as well as the defensive group.  As they were divided into their respective offices, they were also deployed at different areas.  They were doing their own job as specified with their training and the contra-mobilisation unit was going to discharge its own duties.

MR MARITZ: And do I understand the situation correctly that the main function of all these trainees was to enhance the Inkatha movement;  to enlarge it, to recruit members and to establish it as a political force throughout KwaZulu-Natal?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: That's the one main purpose, not so?

WITNESS:   (No audible reply).

MR MARITZ: The other main purpose was to render protection

MR MARITZ: /against

MR MARITZ: 1B against attacks from those who were in conflict with Inkatha.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: And as I understand it further, the - one of the main purposes was to protect the - well, if I'm insulting you here in any way, I plead innocence, because I'm going to use words such as Indunas and Chieftains.  Would that description satisfy you?

WITNESS:   Are you referring to Inkatha members?

MR MARITZ: Yes, yes.

WITNESS:   No, that will be fine with me.

MR MARITZ: In other words, their role was in particular to render protection to - if I may call them dignitaries of Inkatha all over KwaZulu-Natal?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true.

MR MARITZ: Now, Mr Luthuli, you will recall that Mr Mkhize - and I mention him as a case in point, just to try and understand the situation - became a policeman, a KwaZulu policeman and some 5 years later, in 1991, you recruited him to perform specific tasks in Esikaweni.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   No, I never recruited him.  I deny that.  I gave him an order.