Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the next witness I intend calling will be Mr, the applicant, Mr Daniel Petrus Siebert.  He will be testifying in Afrikaans.

MR POTGIETER: Mr Siebert, please provide your full names for the record.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Daniel Petrus Siebert.

MR POTGIETER: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: (Duly sworn, states).

MR POTGIETER: You may take your seat.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Siebert, before we come or start with your amnesty application, I want to show you a sketch plan of Strand Street, 24, the sixth floor.  Could you tell his Honour as what you identify this?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, this is a ground plan of the offices at the Sanlam Building.

MR BOOYENS: At what time?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: During the interrogation of the deceased.

MR BOOYENS: So, that would be during 1977?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Your Honour, with your permission, I want to ask permission to provide copies of this plan.  This would be attached to Exhibit E.  Could we mark this as Exhibit E?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, just hold it.  We have Exhibit E, which was a drawing prepared by ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: Oh, yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the objectors.  Now, your document can go in, hand in as EXHIBIT F.

MR BOOYENS: Certainly, Mr Chairman.  Your Honour, that would be Exhibit F.  I am handing it to you with the necessary copies and also providing a copy to my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: In the top third of this plan there is an office marked by an "X".  Is that correct?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: What office would this be?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is the office in which the interrogation took place.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, my learned friend thought that we had a copy.  In fact, we sent it back.  We have not got a copy of it.

MR BOOYENS: I thought somebody - if you were to look at the top of the sketch, there has been reference to a metal gate, in testimony we have heard this testimony.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, I did hear that.

MR BOOYENS: This grille or metal gate is not indicated on the plan.  Could you, perhaps, indicate it by means of a drawn line to indicate to the Commission where this metal gate or grille would have been?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I will do so, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: You have marked it with a red block on Exhibit F.  Your Honour, perhaps, we should show this to the Commission.  On the original plan it would appear as if there had been a door.  Was this grille or gate in front of the door?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour, in front of the gate on the inside of the office.

MR BOOYENS: So, that door was not used?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, the metal grille or gate was permanently closed.

MR BOOYENS: Let us now move to your application.  We will refer to the sketch plan at a later stage if necessary.  Your identity number is as indicated on the application.  Is that correct?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: And you were born on the 20th of September 1945 in Bloemfontein.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: With regard to support of political organisations, you were a supporter of the National Party?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Were you a member or merely a supporter of the thinking of the party?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I had been a member as well as a supporter.

MR BOOYENS: At the time of the incident, with regard to which you have applied for amnesty, you were a member of the South African Police, Security Branch in Port Elizabeth?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: You were attested in the police on the 25th of January 1962?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At Uitenhage?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is also correct.

MR BOOYENS: You then provide, on page two of your application, that would be 13B of the bundle, an explanation of your career in the police?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: According to this, you joined the Security Branch in 1967?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: What would your rank have been at that time?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Sergeant.

MR BOOYENS: In what section of the Security Branch did you initially work?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I worked in the section that dealt with White, Coloured and Asian affairs.

MR BOOYENS: As what?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: As a field worker.

MR BOOYENS: That would have been right from the beginning?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: I note, in addition, or rather, until when were you a member of the Security Branch?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Until 1989.

MR BOOYENS: In 1989 what occurred?  You became Regional Head of Crime Combating and Investigation which would previously have been the Detective Branch in the Eastern Transvaal?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And in 1992 you retired with the rank of Brigadier or rather 1995, my apologies?  In addition, you mention the various courses that you did while in service of the police?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Let us pay attention, now, to the personal overview and personal circumstances.  You mention or rather, maybe, you can read from personal overview or "persoonlike oorsig".

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: "I am currently 51 years in age, I was born
on the 20th of September 1945 in Bloemfontein.  I am the youngest of four children.  I grew up in a conservative and Christian home.  I am a member of the Dutch Reformed Church and had been actively involved in the Dutch Reformed Church since my childhood and have, for the past 26 years, served on the local Church Council.
	I grew up, during my formative years, in the apartheid era.  The apartheid policy would, as a consequence, have been acceptable and justifiable to me since I was of the opinion, at that time, that this policy was necessary for the continued survival of the White and South African at the southern end of Africa.
	This point of view, in subsequent years, was additionally influenced and strengthened by the policy expressions or statements of political leaders as well as cultural and church leaders.  
	As a result of these statements and rhetoric, I was convinced that the White Afrikaans-speaking person would have to fight for the right of survival and for the right to continue to live as our ancestors did, with particular reference to our heritage, background, culture and political way of life."

MR BOOYENS: Please first stop there, and to expand somewhat more comprehensively on your background.  During the years in which you served in the Security Branch, in Port Elizabeth and also, particularly, during the time when the deceased, in this particular matter, died, would you also have dealt with VIP security?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Would you have, personally, met with and become familiar with certain political leaders?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Whom?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: The then Prime Minister, John Vorster, as well as the then State President of the Republic, Mr C R Swart.

MR BOOYENS: How regularly did you have contact with Mr Vorster?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Very regularly, your Honour, since he had a holiday house at Oubos and, as the occasion allowed, he would visit that holiday house.

MR BOOYENS: Would it then have been your responsibility to provide for his security at that house?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have many personal conversations with the then Prime Minister?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you, in addition, discuss politics?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.