Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: ...a difference between Volksfront and Vryheidsfront, that the one was the official and the other was the earlier ...(intervention).
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Clark ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Sir?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The question I'm going to ask you is solely from the point of view that unfortunately you have experienced some inconveniences due to the non-appearances of some witnesses, including yourself ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...for therefore various reasons ...(inter-vention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...and in that context, I recall that you said, notwithstanding the fact that you knew that counsel for the committee wanted to talk to you, or wanted you to testify, you chose to stay away and not to make yourselves available?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is correct, sir, I will give you a truthful reason if you want a reason.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I want it.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, the TRC is not impartial enough in its affairs, in fact it is quite understandable that some people refer to the TRC as a farce.   The TRC was not only wrongly structured since its inception, but is also not representative of the population as the law requires.  I'm quoting, as you may recall, words spoken by Advocate Chris de Jager.   One could reasonably presume that a TRC advocate should know.   I do not recognise the TRC as a properly constructed legal body.   In the public eye the TRC is political biased against opponents of the ANC, and is not part of the solution, but forms a significant part of the problem in our troubled land.   In a nutshell, Mr Chairman, the TRC has no moral credibility.   Nevertheless, I'm prepared, quite prepared, to answer all questions relevant to this inquiry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You very nearly didn't have the opportunity to say all those things that you have been saying.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I answered the question truthfully, as requested, sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It seems to me, from what you are reading, you have considerable difficulties with the TRC?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I do indeed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I assume that includes the amnesty hearing before which you were sought to come and testify by counsel for the committee?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, it's a strange contradiction, because the TRC, yourself, have to look at each case independently, and in most cases I can see that you actually try your level best to give a sound and welcome sort of judgment.   However, to quote Mr Chris de Jager, it is not structured correctly, and he has a particular problem, and I'd like to quote Mr Chris de Jager for exactly the reason why he has a problem, and I support what he says, he says, I'll read it in Afrikaans ...(intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sir, are we on the same wave length?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, I think so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are talking about the commission?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I was talking about the committee.   You don't have to go further in your answer, you don't have to go further in your ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I'm then ignorant, I don't know the difference between the two.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, yes.   Do you persist you want to go further with your answer, or do you want to stop there, because for my part I think you have answered my question, but if you want to go on, you can.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I think let me finish this, because it would clarify my attitude and perhaps show why I have a problem with the TRC and not with any particular individual, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well why I stopped you is because you're going to read something which is irrelevant, you're going to read ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I don't think so, sir, I don't think so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well you are going to read Mr De Jager's statement with regard to the commission.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: The TRC as a whole, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are you aware Mr De Jager is still aware of the Amnesty Committee, are you aware of that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: He apparently wanted to leave and then I don't know whether he changed his mind or he came back.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, not this committee.   So you are in a wrong direction altogether.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I'm talking about the TRC as a whole, of which you form a part, sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not talking about the TRC.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just clear it up, Mr Chris de Jager is very much a member of the Amnesty Committee.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He was a member of the TRC and asked to be excused, he is no longer a member of the TRC, of the commission.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No, my problem then is not with the Amnesty Committee, as such, my problem is that certain cases are put before you and you yourselves do not apparently have power, or do not exercise the power to unbiasly bring people before this court, as it should be.   For example, we look at the ignored 500 IFP assassinations.   These assassinations will never be discussed here, so is the public perception.   We look at the ANC blanket amnesties.   Now, this may not have appeared in front of your particular group, but the fact is that in the public eye, these things matter, and ...(inter-vention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Clark ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: ...and we are discredited, just because we appear here.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...can I retain the direction to which I was trying to steer the proceedings?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't want to seem to be engaging in a self-cleansing exercise as a member of the Amnesty Committee, let's leave that point ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Thank you, sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now I just wanted to accept that you have said that you had some difficulties in coming to offer your evidence at the request of certain people, and I got the impression that once asked by counsel for the applicants, you did not have any difficulties anymore?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: For them I will do it, for no-one else.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why?   Is it as a result of the strong relationship between you and the applicants, or why?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And by the way, what is the source of this strong bond between you and the applicants?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Derby-Lewis and I go back a long way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In which respect?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: We fight the same fight, we were friends, we visited one another, and in that sense, for me to refuse to come, if his legal counsel would request that I come, I feel I would be letting him down.   If he did not request me to come, then certainly I would not come, because I do have moral problems with appearing here.   The public perception is that I'm co-operating fully with the TRC, and I do not want to really have that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.   I will try to maintain the course that I was on.   Is this bond between you and the applicants of a political nature?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I would say both, primarily political, but I have the highest respect for the persons of Mr Derby-Lewis and Mrs Derby-Lewis.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Would you say that you're a political confidante of Mr Derby-Lewis?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No, I would not, I would not say that, because he didn't confide in me about the Hani assassination.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well until then, did you think you were his confidante?