Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: All the orders came via Dawie de Beer and
when we moved underground and we couldn't have free access and contact with him then the orders started coming through Hennie Binneman.

ADV BOSMAN: And you simply accepted he had the necessary authority to give orders?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR MOSTERT: Mr Lottering, in you confession, you also said the following - that you had a 9 mm. weapon, page 54 at the bottom.  Relating to the murder you said "I got a 9 mm. pistol, I pulled it out and I fired one shot in the direction of his body when he was three to four paces away from me, I aimed for the middle section of his body.  The black man fell but just to make very sure I walked towards him and fired a shot into his head."  If I remember correctly from the documents it seems that that was not the true position because in the explanation of plea included in the documents on page 29, accused no. 1 Fanie Goosen admits that he shot the deceased in the abdomen with a pistol.  Please explain that to us.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He was involved with me in this murder and he also fired that shot but under my Section 29 statement, in that statement I tried to make misrepresentations to try to exculpate them.

MR MOSTERT: So the exclusive purpose was to try and get Fanie Goosen out of trouble?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: When I testified in court I also said that, when I said in my personal evidence that I was involved by myself in the murder and I never pointed him out as having been involved with me in the murder.

MR MOSTERT: Did Mr Goosen plead guilty on this charge?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes he originally pleaded guilty but later changed his plea and pleaded not guilty.

MR MOSTERT: And what was the judgement?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He was acquitted.

MR MOSTERT: On the charge of murder?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Were there any charges of attempted murder?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOSTERT: This section 115 plea explanation, was that handed in at the Supreme Court?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Very well, in the judgement of your particular Judge in your case, he found that the murder, that is page 37 for the Committee, that the murder or that your motive for the murder was based on political and religious grounds but later he said specifically relating to charge number 6 which was the robbery and charge 9 the escaping from custody, he said that he could find no grounds there or that those were not politically inspired.  In the light of that would you like to make any comments, make any submission?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It was definitely politically motivated and this was all in the course and scope and orders which I carried out.

MR MOSTERT: This confession which you made before Magistrate Botha was that used as evidence in the court case?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Did you also testify in that case?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.  I testified and I told them the truth except as far as it related to Goosen who is also involved in the murder.

MR MOSTERT: Your evidence in court did you not refer to the fact that Goosen fired the first shot?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOSTERT: Very well.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Because at that stage the people whom we wanted to exculpate, De Beer and Binneman, they were already sort of acquitted and they weren't charged with these things with which I had been charged so I had partly achieved my purpose at that stage but then I also told this further story to try and keep Goosen out of trouble.

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, I would like a couple of moments for an adjournment if it's convenient?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Mostert?

MR MOSTERT: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lottering if I can just remind you that you're still under your former oath?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: : (s.u.o.)

MR MOSTERT: (cont)
	 Mr Lottering how long have you been in prison now?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I was sentenced to seven years and I have already served more than seven years.

MR MOSTERT: The total sentence that you have to serve?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: After all the amnesties which I have already received, I have to do twelve and a half years full time.

MR MOSTERT: Can you tell the Committee what contact you had with the CP or how you imagined the contact to be?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: We sometimes received instructions from them via Dawie de Beer sometimes for instance at some point when we broke away from Terre'blanche, Terre'blanche later opposed the CP in the elections and Dawie de Beer then had contact with Dr Treurnicht and Dr Treurnicht knew beforehand that we would plant a bomb at Jani Allen's house to prevent the AWB and CP opposing each other in the elections.  They wanted to divide up the right wing vote.

MR MOSTERT: How do you feel about violence?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Personally, I feel that violence in any form makes a worse person of you than you are and it was quite a struggle for me to indoctrinate myself in that way that I could actually go over to violence.  It isn't something which is normally part of my character.

MR MOSTERT: If it wasn't for your political involvement would you ever have committed any of these offences?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.  As I've said, I was a technician in the post office in Telecommunications, these days it's Telkom.  I had a good job and I also bought a house through the Post Office and I've lost all of that, my car everything.

MR MOSTERT: How do you feel after all these years about the losses suffered as a result of your actions?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It was definitely not worth while.

MR MOSTERT: Are you sorry about it?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Thank you Chairperson, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mostert.   Mr Steenkamp do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few questions.
	Mr Lottering, can I refer to page 2 of your Amnesty Application, paragraph 10(b).  Could you please explain to me what you mean or what you meant by the murder on the person was just initiation?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: That's how I had to justify for myself later on - that's what I thought they intended at that stage.

MR STEENKAMP: Initiation for what purpose?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: For this Order of Death movement, the underground organisation.

MR STEENKAMP: Would it mean that in future you would have to kill people again?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Was that your instruction?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: To return to The Order of Death, what exactly was their political objective?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: To obtain a Volkstaat, that was their ultimate objective, there were several options as to how we would achieve that for instance by exercising a coup or simply by committing so much violence that our demands would be met.

MR STEENKAMP: How would you achieve that?  By killing of black people or how was it supposed to have happened?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: We were supposed to attack leaders only, political leaders.

MR STEENKAMP: Now the deceased in this matter was according to your evidence not a leader of any kind, he was an innocent person.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes at that stage I was not allowed to take out a leader because there were too many of us initially, we didn't want to actually reveal our hand before we were really ready for the struggle.

MR STEENKAMP: How many members of The Order of Death have?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I'm not sure exactly.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know of any other members?