Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

ELIZABETH FLOYD: If you look at the system of detention as it existed then compared with 1990, in fact the system as they used it then had been destroyed and it had been destroyed by an organisation or process.  Now our period of detention was a period that sparked off the whole detainee support movement, DPSC, DESCOM, a range of legal support, the health-care component of it, and we went through many many phases in that and in the end it was really detainees themselves who took over and through the hunger strike brought that system of detention to an end.  So I think with Steve Biko's trial, the issue of beating up prisoners became something where, even if you did do it, you better not let anyone find the results of it.
 I think with Neil there was the issue of torture with electric shocks and also the psychological effects.  In fact what happened is the mechanisms have shifted, so there was a period when people came out of detention and were under extensive house arrests and a risk for assassination.  Now they shifted the system into another form, because the one form lost its effect, so they used another one, and certainly I think that the Third Force violence is in fact our last stage, and I believe that some of the same individuals are involved in that.  I mean if you look at some of the professionals, some of them have technically come out of security or CCB or whatever and they're employed elsewhere, but there is suggestion that they are utilised on that system.  So I think it's a shifting system and if you look at the key component that was really political organisation that brought that about.
 So I'm not sure exactly what you put in the future, obviously democracy is the key safe guard and I think in terms of reparations i would suggest that you need to talk to people individually, I think there are different meanings for different people, and it's probably per the individual and again I think people like ourselves, the political stage that we've reached now, means quit a lot in terms of what we were there for, but that's really different for a mother or a child, it's a different kind of loss.

DR RANDERA: Liz earlier on when the Chairperson was introducing the Premier of our region he made a point of noting what remarkable people have come out of the struggle and where they are today, and I note that you are now a director in the Gauteng Health Department and I congratulate you on that position.  My question is more related to what you said earlier on in terms of looking after people who were in detention as a doctor and as a health worker, and the question I'd like to ask is, are those files available, is the information available that will have or add meaning to the work that the Commission is doing?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: There is some collated information for '95 and '96.  After December '96 we find it extremely difficult to publish any information because of the legislation and even the '96 one we had to go to great length, we used legal advice in the study design and we destroyed files afterwards to protect ourselves against subpoenas to people who'd given those statements being taken into a court and being charged with statements that they couldn't prove.  A lot of the information is supposed to be somewhere, I think we had to do like our records without names and I think they were archives to protect them, and the people involved are beginning to discuss looking at those, but it would be quite a big task.  The study from '95 is Paul Davis'es and the '96 one is from Nando and those could be easily submitted to the Truth Commission.  With the latest stuff, it's a question of finding the files and collating them or getting the people involved to actually verbally report on what they saw.

DR BORAINE: Liz I want to take you back to the inquest if I may, I just want some clarity so that we have the fullest information possible.  First, the police woman who took the statement from Neil concerning electrical torture that he relayed to her, did she appear at the inquest when she gave that information?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: Yes she did appear in inquest and the statement was presented to the inquest.  I think in terms of the inquest there's very extensive documentation.

DR BORAINE: Thank you ,notwithstanding that statement and many others, the decision was that no one could be blamed for ...(indistinct) under duress?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: That's true.

DR BORAINE: Following that same line, the fact that she also gave a statement of alleged torture to a visiting magistrate which was only investigated three weeks later, was that information also given at the inquest?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: I believe so, I can't remember everything that happened in the inquest, it would be useful for you to review the record.

DR BORAINE: But we will obviously be able to find out the name of that magistrate from the inquest records.  A final question, was it also made clear in the inquest that Neil Agget was subjected to 60 hours of interrogation between the 28th and the 31st of January?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: That's my understanding, I'm sure that's right.

DR BORAINE: Thank you that's all.

YASMINE SOOKA: Liz it seems quite clear from what you've said that you've got quite a few strong opinions on the role of different professions in this whole saga, and one of the things that we're becoming increasingly aware of is the fact that both the medical and the legal professions have come under quite strong scrutiny.  You've in fact said that the legal system was in support, and I would like you to clarify that firstly, because on the other side you also have people who were actively supporting detainees and people who were in that situation, but in addition to that you made mention of the fact that one of the persons in the legal team is now a judge.  This Commission has to make recommendations about future human rights abuses can be avoided, have you given any thought to the role of the different professions in the whole exercise, and how if they do their job properly, things like this can be avoided in the future?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: Off the cuff I'm don't think I can give you anything very well thought out.  Now obviously in the legal profession people defend people, you would know more about that.  In terms of the health profession I would say we've made enormous steps towards a situation where on the whole the legal profession understands that if it deals with a detainee by about 1998 even, when a detainee went in to aprovincial hospital they were treated quite well as a detainee.  We then had the problem of the people with gunshot wounds who were being reported through the administration to the police and being arrested.  So I think we have made progress and professional ethics are difficult, they're not apolitical.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also sounded quite upset about this fact that the legal team for the security police was paid by in fact, what is our tax money.  Do you want to express an opinion about that because it's become quite a sore issue today given the huge amounts that were used to defend people who have committed violations?

ELIZABETH FLOYD: I think it's really in that context that the security police could rely on a wide range of support systems, they were not operating in complete isolation and that included a range of the institutions.