Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR DU TOIT: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr du Toit.  Ms Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson, good morning again Mr du Toit.

MR DU TOIT: Good morning.

MARY BURTON: You, I understand, are retired now, but in the eighties you were a warrant officer in the Police Force is that correct.

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MARY BURTON: And you were attached to the Security Unit, is that correct?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary, may I just interrupt just for a moment, I just want to find out from Mr Brand, are all the witnesses presenting - reading their testimonies?

MR BRAND: Chairperson we don't have a prepared statement for the witness due to the fact that the type of the inquiry at the moment and his own specific incident that there won't be - and I think you are welcome to start with the questioning regarding the specific issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thanks Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

MR BRAND: May I perhaps just place on record that Advocate Hiemstra is appearing for the witness with me, I am not sure whether his name was mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Hiemstra do you want to place yourself on the record?

ADV HIEMSTRA: Thank you Chairperson.  My name is R C Hiemstra and I appear for the witness Mr du Toit, instructed by De Klerk & Van Gend.

MR BRAND: May I also at this stage just tender the apologies of myself and the various witnesses for being late.  We had transport problems in getting here.

CHAIRPERSON: No lunch for you.

MARY BURTON: Just then to go back to your position at the times that we are talking about.  You came to Cape Town in or about 1980, is that right?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MARY BURTON: But perhaps to take us more closely in the last few days we've been talking very specifically about 1985 and 1986 and at that time could you tell us your position and the work you were doing?

MR DU TOIT: I was attached to the informal sectors of Cape Town where I did monitoring work during cleaning-up operations performed by certain line functionaries in residential areas which were seen as illegal at that stage and they were demolished, I did monitoring functions there.  And when there were certain incidents I reported on those incidents and I also liaised as widely as possible with the communities to try and obtain information to be able to notify authorities of possible tensions and flashpoints.  It was my task to also identify problems in certain communities which could possibly lead to violence.  That is more-or-less broadly speaking what my tasks were.

MARY BURTON: So your daily work really brought you into close contact with the communities with Crossroads and the surrounding areas?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

MARY BURTON: And then the information that you gleaned from those contacts, how did you feed that back into the police structures?

MR DU TOIT: The routine was that each morning at seven o'clock on weekdays I would prepare a telex of what had happened on the previous day, all in the incidents in the past 24 hours, if any - yes incidents which had taken place.   Now that telex, all other information would then be submitted to my desk officer, my immediate superior officer in my office, in other words my first officer.  I then submitted it to him, he would read it and if there were questions arising from that he would ask me those questions, I would supply the information, then I would take the telex to the divisional commanding officer of the Security Branch in that same building and I would submit it to him as well.  He would also study this information and would ask some questions for clarification, he would sign it and then I took it to the telex operators for distribution.   Was that the question?

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  Can you tell us who those two respective officers were at the time, the head of your section and the divisional head?

MR DU TOIT: In 1985 and '86, I am actually not quite sure who was the head in 1985, Brigadier Strydom was the overall divisional commanding officer in 1986.  I may be wrong but I think I am correct in that.  I don't think I am misleading you there.

MARY BURTON: Now the telex then went where after it had been seen by the local and divisional people?

MR DU TOIT: The telex was addressed to the Commissioner, South African Police Pretoria and where there had been violence or possible violence and police involvement in these matters those telexes were also addressed to the local divisional commissioner of police in Cape Town.

MARY BURTON: So in a sense you were the eyes of ears of very senior people in the State, on the ground at that time?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that is correct.

MARY BURTON: And are you aware of the fact that at that time the Joint Security Management System was in place and that both at national and at regional level the various arms of the security forces came together to plan strategically around major issues of security?

MR DU TOIT: Yes Chairperson.  I am aware that there was a phase in that time when this happened.  I am not quite sure when I became involved in the system, whether this was in 1985 or '86.  My suspicion is that it took place in the second half or towards the end of '86 when I became involved in the mini-structures.

MARY BURTON: Now you have told us about the written reports which you presented, but were you also asked to attend meetings of any of the levels of the Joint Management Centres to report on what you had learned?

MR DU TOIT: Do you mean in the broader structures of the local JMCs?

MARY BURTON: Yes.

MR DU TOIT: Yes, I was sometimes coopted to - well I can't remember when it happened and how it happened but sometimes on occasion I was coopted to attend meetings of the structures to submit a situation report covering the circumstances at the time.

MARY BURTON: Would you have been an actual regular member of the Joint Information Committee?

MR DU TOIT: No, no this was only occasionally.  It wasn't always, but as I can recall now it happened when there was a lot of tension building up in an area, when something was on hand then I would be coopted if the events fell within sphere.

MARY BURTON: And your role at those meetings, you told us that it was to give information about what you had learned, did you also take part in the planning of responses to whatever situation developed?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I never took part in the planning. I was never involved in any planning.  I was a warrant officer and I was never involved in the planning.

MARY BURTON: Now those meetings were meetings that happened at the Thomas Boydell buildings in town, is that right?

MR DU TOIT: Yes.  The meetings which I attended were in the Thomas Boydell building and also at a Pinelands Operational Centre.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  Now you've given us a picture where you were in contact with the communities and you were feeding in that information to the people who were making the decisions, what information did you get back from them?  What instructions, requests for particular work that you should do?

MR DU TOIT: The questions or complaints which I received dealt mainly with social issues and as an example of this I could mention the following.  People would for instance say we don't have a tap, or we have only one tap for three groups of people, or we have too few premises or places to live, we are actually overcrowded or similar things, social problems, welfare issues, those were the most important issues, and I took those issues up immediately.

MARY BURTON: So those were, to some extent, problems that were solved then by the development board, so that you had people like Mr Bezuidenhout, Mr Schelhase, attending to things that could become a flashpoint for a problem?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.