Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman it's difficult to say 'humanly possible'.  I would like to have seen at least another 400, 500 policemen there.  But as I have pointed out earlier in my evidence that we only had 70, and now this is my own opinion again that if we used the rest of the Ciskei Police that weren't trained we might have had them also participating in the shooting after the defence force
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started shooting in that panic, we might have had a worse situation there.  But what we could have done at that stage, I would agree with, we couldn't have done more at that stage.

MR SANDI: One last question.  Do you think the head of the Ciskei, Brigadier Gqozo could have done anything in the circumstances to prevent this tragedy?  Do you think there is anything he failed to do which he ought to have done to prevent the tragedy?  If yes what do you think he could have done?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman my opinion again, I will agree with General van der Bank that the police as well as the Ciskei defence force were used as a political, can I say, soccer ball or whatever the case may be in that situation.  The politicians could have prevented the shooting from occurring.

MR SANDI: Thank you Sirs.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Sandi.  Any other questions?  Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: What is your clan name?

UNKNOWN: I am from Ngonde clan.

REV XUNDU: I want you to clarify this for us.  This is our common problem.  When you see the police do they clearly say that Gqozo should go down and get another government?

UNKNOWN: The reason for us to be there in that situation is because we could see Gqozo's direction.  It is because we refused to take some of the orders from him?

REV XUNDU: And example of that?

UNKNOWN: Some civil servants were dismissed from work.  They were evicted from their houses.  Just before you do
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anything you must first check whether the eviction order is there then you must seek for the procedure so that one should be protected.  This is one of the reasons why Gqozo used to hate the police.

REV XUNDU: Another question.  Did you think that the police were cooperating with White police or the Blacks, did you think that it's only the White policemen who were interested in that job?

UNKNOWN: They were using the White policemen to force us to work as the Black police.

REV XUNDU: So can you say it was in their interests to continue without any transformation in the country?

UNKNOWN: Yes I can say that.

REV XUNDU: There is this massacre, what is your suggestion to try and reconcile those families as some of your relatives were involved there, what could be your suggestion especially on people who were used in this manner to try and reconcile with these people so that there should be unity and peace again?  What is your suggestion?

UNKNOWN: What happened was very painful especially to a person who observed, who was looking at this thing, because you could see that no one was supposed to die if people had given a thought.  I suggest that there should be negotiation and there should be peace after that.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much Rev Xundu.  And to you gentlemen, thank you for coming to assist the Commission with your evidence and information surrounding this incident that we are looking at.
 We are about to conclude for the day.  I would like to thank the members of the public for having attended and having gone to the trouble of sharing the events around this EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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incident.  
 We must also say that the matter is proceeding tomorrow and in view of the fact that some of the witnesses who were supposed to have been heard today had to stand over until tomorrow we would like to proceed very strictly at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning with the proceedings.
 Also Ms Pumpla Gobodo-Madikizela will not be able to, unfortunately, grace this panel with her presence tomorrow.  She has got to leave us.  We thank you very much for having been here today and for your input.
 We are now adjourned until tomorrow.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS