Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

UNKNOWN: I think that will be a secondary step, there were confessions, not necessary through assaults?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Quite right.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Ntsebeza.  So there were confessions and generally when these confessions are produced in court,  the accused alleged that they had been assaulted in making these confessions?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I am sure there were such instances.

MR VALLY: Would you say there were a number of such instances?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I won't deny that, no, not at all.

MR VALLY: Where they personally accused you of being responsible for torturing them to elicit a confession from them?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Not that I am aware of.

MR VALLY: Let's move on.  We are going back to the Oupa Seheri matter.  Were you present when the Scorpio machine pistol was found in the bedroom of Ms Zinzi Hlongwani Mandela at the Orlando West house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Mr Chairman, as I have already explained I cannot recall this specifically.  If I can have the opportunity to look at this docket once again and to read it through to refresh my memory, I will gladly do that.  I cannot remember specifically, it is possible that I was there, it is possible that I wasn't there, I cannot remember specifically.
 If I could just see the docket again, then I would gladly try to answer that question more meaningfully.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I ask you to perhaps be a little more focused and specific and give us some indication of how much more time you are going to be using?

MR VALLY: I estimate at this stage Mr Chairperson, that I should be approximately 15 minutes at the most.  What we have started with and what we are trying to do is establish a pattern and so we will need some general questions before we home in on more specific issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, if you can get to that as soon as possible please.

MR VALLY: Mr Kritzinger, you do not recall this particular incident where this firearm was found in the Madikizela-Mandela household?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Mr Chairman, I am aware that such a firearm was found.  I have knowledge of that, I can just not recall specifically as to whether I was present there or not.
 But of the case that such a firearm was found, I have knowledge of that, yes.

MR VALLY: Were you ever involved in the questioning of Ms Zinzi Hlongwani Mandela in connection with this incident?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I cannot remember that I interrogated her personally in this specific case, no.

MR VALLY: Were you aware whether she was interrogated at all in connection with this incident?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, if my memory does not - she was interrogated and I think that a statement was also obtained from her.  I cannot recall specifically if it was colleague Heyns or Lemmer who obtained a statement from her, but if I remember correctly I think that a statement was obtained from her, or in any case attempts were made to obtain a statement from her.

MR VALLY: Was she ever charged with this incident?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, as far as I can remember, she was not charged.

MR VALLY: As senior Investigation Officer, can you tell us why she wasn't charged?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think it dealt purely with the fact that prosecution did not rest with me, it is in the hands of the Attorney General and it is his prerogative to decide who he wants to prosecute or not.
 What I can remember in this specific case is that certain formal acknowledgements were made regarding the possession of weaponry by Mr Seheri and I think that those formal acknowledgements were made, or admissions were made to keep Zinzi or Mrs Madikizela-Mandela out of court and I think that the State without presenting that evidence to court by means of a formal admission, it was accepted as such.

MR VALLY: Did you question Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself on the issue?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, I never interrogated her.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any of your colleagues having interrogated her?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: In this specific case, I cannot remember.  I think attempts were made to make contact with her and I believe that we were time and again referred to her Attorney without any success, that any concrete interrogation or statement was obtained from her.

MR VALLY: Mr Kritzinger, it sounds like you were treating her with kitgloves and I find this very strange.
 A gun is found in her house, you acknowledge that?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, absolutely.

MR VALLY: The vehicle that was used in the murder, was her vehicle?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct.

MR VALLY: As Security Branch you will have on various occasions detained Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Could you just repeat please, was she detained on several occasions?

MR VALLY: Are you aware that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had on various occasions been detained by Security Branch members?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think that I am only aware of the fact, if I can remember correctly, that she was detained on one occasion and this was for non compliance with a restriction order when she was in Krugersdorp, further I am not aware while I was there, that she was physically detained.  I am not aware of that.

MR VALLY: You are aware of at least one incident, regarding the breech of restriction order, yet you tell me that in connection with the murder of two people, a gun is found in her house, her vehicle is used in the murders, it appears and correct me if I am wrong, it appears as if Mr Seheri was a visitor at her household, would that be correct?  A regular visitor at her household?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That could have been like that, I will not deny that.

MR VALLY: And you don't try and obtain a statement from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself?  Doesn't it sound like very poor Police work?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, I do not believe that it is poor Police work, I think that I had a docket which proved the crime bona fide.  I think that we must also take into consideration the fact that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was a high profile person if I can use the English terminology.
 And it is also true that because she was a high profile person, it was my method of investigating that if she had to be approached, I would have done this by means of the Attorney General or the Advocate tasked with this investigation, to receive further instructions that I had to obtain a statement from her. 
 That request, or such a request was never directed at me which could have assisted with a successful carrying out of this specific case.  Therefore the State felt that it could prove this case, without Mrs Mandela being approached for a statement in this regard and to decide to prosecute her if she had provided shelter for so-called terrorists.
 There was never a request for such a matter to be investigated any further from the office of the Attorney General, so I do not believe that any accusation would be correct as to say that poor investigation was done in this specific case.

MR VALLY: Mr Kritzinger, did you cite Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter, Mrs Zinzi Hlongwani Mandela as State witnesses in this matter?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, they were not cited as State witnesses.  I cannot remember that they were called as witnesses, no.

MR VALLY: We will come back to that later.  You did tell us earlier that because of certain admissions made by the accused in this matter, it wasn't necessary to call Mrs Zinzi Madikizela-Mandela earlier on in your evidence?  Do you recall that?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I can remember that I said that if I remember correctly, formal admissions were made and as a result of the formal admissions that were made, it was not necessary for her to cite her as a witness because that which she could testify to, had already been acknowledged or admitted to.