Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No, I wouldn't say that Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Where did you get that impression from therefore that you could engage in unlawful activities when you were pursuing the ANC or acting against the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: In that instance at Piet Retief, we acted illegally.  We killed the people there.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but what I am trying to find out from you is whence came this idea that you could act unlawfully when acting against the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No.

ADV GCABASHE: No, Mr van Zweel, maybe it will assist you to use the translators because the answer you have just given doesn't make sense in relation to the question.  I'm sure it's a language, either language or you can't hear.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I don't hear him properly, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just try with the earphones Mr van Zweel, it might facilitate your hearing.  Could you please, Mr Moerane, repeat the question again?

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Mr van Zweel, where did you get the idea from that you could act illegally when acting against the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: With the incident in Piet Retief.

MR MOERANE: No, but before that, before the 12th June 1988, I understood you to be saying that you could act illegally against the ANC.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot recall if this was the incident in Swaziland, whether it was before or after.

MR MOERANE: I'm talking about an incident that you have mentioned in the present application.  That incident was in 1984.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes, so by the time 1988 came, 12th June, you knew or at least you believed that you could engage in illegal acts against the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now my question is, where did you get that idea from?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I observed it myself that we had to act against the ANC because they infiltrated the country illegally, committed illegal acts and so forth.

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Moerane.  Mr van Zweel, let me speak to you in Afrikaans.  The question is, did you believe that you may commit illegal acts against the ANC, in other words that rules were not applicable, or that you did not have to adhere to prescriptions when you acted against the ANC?  Now why did you think...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What was the answer?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: No. Okay.

MR MALAN: The question was put to you in English whether you thought that you could use illegal methods in actions against the ANC and you said that you believed so.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I misunderstood there, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But you also said on a further question that you observed illegal actions being used against the ANC.  You referred to the incident at Piet Retief.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR MALAN: And I think you also referred to a matter in Swaziland in 1984.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that's correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Malan.  So you did appreciate the question.  You knew what the question was about.  The question was about illegal acts that you performed in your fight against the ANC.  Not so?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: I ask you again, where did you get the idea from that you could employ illegal methods when fighting the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I received the order to do so.

MR MOERANE: So are you telling this Honourable Committee that whenever you employed illegal methods in your fight against the ANC, it was on instructions?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Instructions from your seniors?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: And in particular Maj Deetlefs?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Why are you hesitating?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: The order was from Piet Retief and Vlakplaas.

MR MOERANE: Is your case, Mr van Zweel, that in all the illegal activities in which you engaged, you were simply following instructions?  You were following orders?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And that went to the extent where you had to lie and commit perjury, were you still following instructions then?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, the perjury was upon instruction.  It was upon instructions.

MR MOERANE: So when you made that statement under oath in anticipation of inquest proceedings arising out of the events of the 12th June 1988, you were following instructions?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, I've already told the Committee that it was a false statement, or that at least aspects of the statement were false.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  And is it correct that the lying there, the following of instructions there was a concerted effort on the part of your seniors?  By that I mean that not only you, but other persons in a lower rank, had to toe the line and tell the same lie?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, all of us told the lie.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but it was something that was organised by your seniors, that you should lie?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now with regard to...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Moerane, if I may, on this point. The preparation of the statements, did you ever have any interviews with Pienaar, or did he prepare the statement and give it to you to sign?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I don't believe that this statement was taken by Mr Pienaar.  I cannot see who took that statement.

MR MALAN: The question is whether you were interviewed?  The statement was made under oath, can you recall whether any interview was held with you regarding this statement or were you simply given the statement?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: The statement was written, I was given the statement to read and I signed it.

MR MALAN: Was the statement taken from you, in other words in your presence?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR MALAN: Are you sure of that?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I'm almost 100% certain of that.  I cannot recall precisely, it's quite a long time ago, but I am almost certain of it.

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Moerane, if I may just proceed on this point.  Were all of you called in to agree on a version or how did it come to be that everybody could lie about exactly the same thing in this statement?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I can no longer recall.

MR MALAN: Isn't it probable that somebody compiled these statements for everybody and gave it to them to sign?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is possible.

MR MALAN: It doesn't seem to me that there is any other possibility.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot say.

MR MALAN: And you cannot recall who presented the statement to you?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No.

MR MALAN: Mr Pienaar gave evidence that he was the investigating officer.  Isn't it probable that it was he who compiled it?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is possible.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: The investigating officer of that intended inquest was W/O Pienaar.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Now coming to the statement that you made in connection with your amnesty application.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You made that statement on the 13th December 1996 at Delmas.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Would I be correct in saying that, present at the same place and the same time, was W/O Pienaar?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And also Mr Theron?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And Mr Hayes?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot recall.  I don't believe that Mr Hayes was there.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think you should consult the documents Mr Moerane because that is not correct.