Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: Yes it was issued to us as seniors of the unit, then it will depend on me, on myself, as to whether what will be the situation with whom am I among members of the unit.  That would be the one who would help me to execute ...(gap between tapes)

CHAIRPERSON: The command was issued to you as seniors of the unit.  How many seniors did your unit consist of?

JOHN RADEBE: We were four, senior members.

CHAIRPERSON: And what were the positions held by the three other seniors?

JOHN RADEBE: They were commanding other sub-units.

CHAIRPERSON: What sub-units are you alluding to?  I thought you were talking about Zone 12 which already was a sub-unit of the entire SDU structure in Sebokeng.

JOHN RADEBE: In the sub-units within Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: So in Zone 12 you had your unit, which was further sub-divided.  Is that what you are saying?

JOHN RADEBE: We had one unit.  We executing operations as, and we were eight when we did some of the operations, but the people who are responsible for the operations are ourselves, the eight, but other were doing other, other works.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say there were four seniors, you are talking about your units and the other units that you've already testified to their existence, because you earlier on said Zone 12 consisted of four units, and your unit was one of the four.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now the problem which I have with this aspect of evidence, is that Mr Mkhwanazi testified that the commander of your unit was one Bonga Khumalo, and you are saying the commander was comrade Mabusa Mhlongo.  Am I correct?  That's the surname you gave us, Mabusa Mhlongo.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, how is it that Mr Mkhwanazi, who was a member within your unit, your particular unit in Zone 12, can say that you were all being commanded in your unit by Bonga Khumalo, and you say you were commanded by comrade Mabusa Mhlongo?

JOHN RADEBE: Mr Mkhwanazi is tell you the truth that Bonga was the commander of that unit, because he was not falling under one particular unit.  He was a general commander of Zone 12 SDU's.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand your evidence.  That was not his evidence.  Did you understand my problem.  Let me repeat.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how, how does it come that Mr Mkhwanazi should speak about Bonga Khumalo as having been a commander of your unit, and you say he was an overall commander of all units in Sebokeng?

JOHN RADEBE: In Zone 12, not in Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHN RADEBE: I would say he was, Bonga Khumalo is my commander.  I would say he was my commander because he's an overall commander.  But I would not go to him to receive instructions.  Instructions were via from Mabusa to me from Mr Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi went a step further.  He said you were second in charge to Mr Khumalo, which really crystallises the issue.  See, if he had left it at Mr Bonga Khumalo having been a commander there would have been no problems with me, but he went further to say you were the second in charge to Mr Khumalo.  Now this brought problems in my mind when you gave your evidence.  If he believed that Bonga Khumalo was a commander by virtue of him being an overall commander in Zone 12, why should he go a step further and say you were second in command to him?

JOHN RADEBE: He was supposed to say so because on that day I, on that particular day I gave him orders in that operation.  Therefore would say I am in second in command from Bonga because he did not understand the overall commander and the commander of a particular unit, but I was second in charge to Mr Mabusa.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would Mr Mkhwanazi, who is a member of a unit, not understand the structure of command?  Why wouldn't he understand an ordinary structure and the nature of its command?  We have evidence from him that he had been a member of that unit since 1992.  We have evidence from you that were  joined, coming late into that unit.  You only came in either late in 92 or early in 1993.  Now on what basis would you believe that he would make such a mistake, when he's been a member of long standing in that particular unit?

JOHN RADEBE: I'm not able to tell this Committee why he would make that mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi further gave testimony to the effect that so notorious were the activities of the ladies in question, that sometime in 1992 they were captured by one comrade Skosana and brought to the offices of the ANC, whereat the community administered lashes to show their disapproval of the community in the activities conducted by Ms Mokoena and the late Ndumo in spying for the IFP.  Are you aware of that incident?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in Zone 12 already when that incident took place?  Were you part of the unit?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I was not yet in Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say you heard about it, were you aware of that incident before Ms Ndumo was killed?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I heard it from the comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did that incident not suggest to you that the community on whose behalf you were acting in protecting them against the IFP, did that incident not suggest that the community had condoned the ladies for their participation or association with the IFP?

JOHN RADEBE: They did not do anything to them because at that, for a long time they were not there.  They were disciplined by being sjambokked, then from then they went back to the community as if they have been rehabilitated, but after some time they disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, after their disappearance, have any tangible evidence that they had continued with their activities, notwithstanding the punishment meted out to them by the community?  Did you have any facts in your possession as SDU's?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what were the facts which were at your disposal, and on which you then believed that they had not indeed become rehabilitated?

JOHN RADEBE: Because the killings continued.  Then we received information that they were still involved.  That information came from some members of the community and some members of our SDU's or our comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: You received information that they were still involved from who?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: From whom?

JOHN RADEBE: From some comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Which comrades?  Bearing in mind that you were unable to act on what Mr Mkhwanazi had told you, until it was, it came from the lips of your commander comrade Mabusa.

JOHN RADEBE: It was discussed generally in the offices.  We would just discuss it in passing.

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't it true, and you heard the evidence of Mr Mkhwanazi, that you believed them to be spies because of what they had done previously?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And not because of what they had done subsequent to the punishment by the community?

JOHN RADEBE: I received information that they were doing these things before they were disciplined.  Even after they had disciplined they returned to the community and after some time they disappeared.  Then we received information again that they are still continuing with their association with IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised that this information that you are referring to ...(indistinct), according to Mr Mkhwanazi's evidence, at least with regard to Elsie Mokoena, she disappeared for a very long time, and was not seen or heard of by him even 'though he was staying very close to her home.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, he's telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, the information that you obtained, you obtained from which sources?

JOHN RADEBE: I would tell a lie if I would say I received that information from a particular person.  It was discussed under general.  You would not know who is the source of that information.