Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR ZWANE: No in fact what happened I got the advocate from the organisation which is supporting the MK cadres and their activities in the country when they were arrested, but they - in fact in the process they said they can't represent me because they were having the problem with Mrs Mandela and this was case was consisting of Mrs Mandela's name somewhere, somehow and I was forced to get the state's advocate to represent me in the case.

MR JORDI: So you had a pro deo advocate you say?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR JORDI: But the trial went on for a number of days.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR JORDI: During tea, during lunch, before the hearing, perhaps before the trial even started, after the hearing you had an opportunity to speak to your counsel, am I right, your advocate?

MR ZWANE: Ja we had some occasions where we spoke together but he wasn't frequent.

MR JORDI: Right.  So you were able to tell your advocate the story and give him your instructions about how you wanted to handle the case, is that right?

MR ZWANE: I didn't have a knowledge of the law when I got arrested, I was at the age of 19 years old.  I expected the person who is defending me to advise me.  The only thing I had to do was to tell him my story and he was the one to advise me what ...(intervention)

MR JORDI: Right, so you told him your story, am I right?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR JORDI: Right.  I put it to you, I am going to tell you something and I want you to tell me whether it is right or wrong.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR JORDI: During the trial you were charged with the death of Finky Msomi who was a 13 year old girl who was shot with an AK-47 and then burnt to death in the Dudu Chili house, and your advocate and the state's advocate agreed that your attack on the Chili household had been motivated by revenge, on your part, for the death of Maxwell Madondo who was a resident in Winnie Mandela's house.  What do you say to that?

MR ZWANE: No I don't know of anything like that.

MR JORDI: Alright.  I have no further questions for this witness.  Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Is that concluded?  Ms Sita.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Charles have you applied for amnesty for your crimes?

MR ZWANE: I applied amnesty for the killing of three policemen only.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  Just to clarify certain issues did the MK cadres at your time during the struggle, did they carry ammunition with them?

MR ZWANE: I beg your pardon?

UNKNOWN: The MK members, you probably knew some MK members because you were an MK cadre yourself?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Did any of your MK friends carry ammunition with them at any time?

MR ZWANE: Ja, most must be in possession of at least of a pistol or a handgrenade, not just a fighter just walk around like a civilian, he must be in possession of some ammunition.  We were not living like ordinary civilians.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Were you Sibusiso Chili's friend?

MR ZWANE: Oh I would say so, we grew up together with Sibusiso.  I knew his place very well.  I knew the family.  They were also my comrades not only friends.

UNKNOWN: Did you bear any ill feelings, bad feelings against the Chili family at all?

MR ZWANE: No they have done nothing to me. I don't have any bad feelings for them.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Charles.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mr Zwane thank you very much for appearing before the Commission.  You may stand down please.

MR ZWANE: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: I beg your pardon, would you please take a seat, my apologies, one of our Commissioners would like to put a question to you.  Please go ahead.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mr Zwane I am referring you to your submission on page 9, again I want to follow this thing about Sibusiso Chili.  In your statement here you say that he was your friend and he was involved in politics.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

KHOZA MGOJO: But not in the Football Club.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you know anything about the Football Club?  You seem to be comparing two things here, he was involved in politics but not in the Football Club.

MR ZWANE: In fact the question was asked by me how do I know Sibusiso and I explained that I knew because we were all members of (...indistinct) and I was asked was he a member of the Mandela Football Club, I said no he wasn't a member of the Mandela Football Club, I only knew him as an activist I would say, I'll put it in that way.

KHOZA MGOJO: Okay what I am trying to say, did you know yourself what was happening in the Football Club?

MR ZWANE: The activities of the Football Club I read, I heard them in the newspapers there in prison because I spent most of my life in prison.  I heard everything that they alleged having done by the team, I was in prison, I heard from the TV, from the radios in prison.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Yes.

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman may I just take an opportunity to read from the court record in the case of State v Charles Bongani Zwane, just for the purposes of the record.

DR BORAINE: Go ahead.

MR JORDI: I am reading from page 628 of volume 7 of the record of the Supreme Court of South Africa, Witwatersrand Local Division trial in case no 108/90 and it says on page 628 at line 20 to 30
"Then as far as the third incident is concerned the accused said that by March they attacked a house in Orlando West, Sonwabe with an AK-47 and he with petrol bombs and that a member of the Winnie Mandela Club had been murdered and they had to avenge themselves."

DR BORAINE: So you've read that for the record.  Mr Zwane thank you again.  I am sorry I let you go earlier than you should have but now you can go.  Thank you very much for your attendance.

MR ZWANE: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: We call Paul Erasmus and John McPherson.

MR VALLY: I was told that we were having Gift Ntombeni next.

DR BORAINE: I am sorry could you hold that for a minute.

YASMINE SOOKA: Is Gift Ntombeni's lawyer here?  No.  Could we please find out if Gift Ntombeni's lawyer is here please.  Mr Khoza.  His lawyer is not around.

DR BORAINE: I don't think we can waste the time of this Commission any further, could we have order please.  Please take your seats.  Thank you very much.  So I call Paul Erasmus and John McPherson.  Thank you.  Welcome gentleman.  I know at least two of you, I am not too sure about the third but my colleague Yasmin Sooka will ask you to state your names for the record and administer the oath.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: (sworn states)

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: (sworn states)

MR CORNELIUS: Wim Cornelius, an attorney from Pretoria acting on behalf of the two clients.

DR BORAINE: I was wondering if it wouldn't be easier for you to lead your clients if you are facing them or are you comfortable there?

MR CORNELIUS: This is fine thank you Mr Chair.

DR BORAINE: Please proceed.

MR CORNELIUS: It starts in the order of - my learned colleague would prefer me to sit on the other side.

DR BORAINE: I think it would be better if you have no objection.

MR CORNELIUS: I have no objection.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Would you mind repeating your name when you start just for the record and then please feel free to continue.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair, I am Wim Cornelius from Kruger Attorneys in Pretoria acting on behalf of Mr McPherson and Paul Erasmus.
 I would like to begin with Superintendent McPherson if possible.  Mr McPherson what rank do you hold at present?