Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Captain were you told by anybody to fabricateyour report?

ANSWER: Not at all, no one asked any particular questions. All that I was asked is what I was doing in Kwandabele and allI had to say was that I was the Brigadier's driver, that
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was the general practice there were no additional questioningin that regard.

<UNKNOWN>: What I am saying is were you directed or instructedby anybody to tell untruth as you did in your report?

ANSWER: It wasn't quite an untruth I just left out someparts of it, I simply said that I accompanied the Brigadier anddidn't expand on it and no one asked me any further questions.

<UNKNOWN>: You told them that you accompanied him as yourdriver?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you his driver?

ANSWER: In many cases when he entered dangerous areas,areas where there had been unrest, certain areas were more dangerousthan others and from head office we received instructions thatour senior officers were not supposed to enter these areas withouta driver.   They were not allowed to do so.   In every case wherehe entered such an area I did accompany him so this was the normalcourse of events, it didn't appear as strange to anyone or outsideof the ordinary to anyone.

<UNKNOWN>: But were you driving on this particular day?

ANSWER: Yes I was the driver on this particular day.

<UNKNOWN>: What have you done, because this is not disclosedin your evidence, what have you done that caused you to applyfor amnesty on arson?

ANSWER: When a bomb like that explodes, there is a lotof burning involved.   This is probably not arson as such buta lot of fire is involved in such an incident, yes we do mentionarson.   I assumed that there would have been quite
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a lot of fire due to the explosives, also where plastic explosiveswere involved there would be a major involved.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain there is no evidence by yourself aboutarson.

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: You testified that Mbkhoto at one stage burned50 houses and killed about 30 people.   Were any arrests madefor this?

ANSWER: Chair there were, as Brigadier Cronje alreadymentioned, after the problem started the full-scale problems inKwandabele a special investigative team was sent to Kwandabelewho had to deal with all of these activities.   There were manydossiers but whether there were any arrests made I would not beable to answer.   I do know from my conversations with Sgt Gouwsand W/O Oosthuizen, who at that time were part of the investigativeteam, that there were large numbers of dossiers.   Intimidationwould be similar, you wouldn't openly discuss some things thathappened to you, you would have been careful to discuss Pete Ntulior to make any claims with regard to Pete Ntuli in public.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : In your opinion then Captain would you saythat that incident where 30 people died was probably the laststraw in the South African Government's neck which resulted inthe Government deciding to eliminate Mr Ntuli?

ANSWER: Chair that's very difficult for me to say whatthe reactions of Government would have been to that particularact, I wouldn't be able to tell you.   One can assume what theirreaction was but you can't verify it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Captain would you agree with me if I put itto you that Pete Ntuli was eliminated simply because he was an
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embarrassment to the then National Party Government and not becausecertain political objectives were to be achieved?

ANSWER: I would not be able to answer you in this regard,but that he was indeed an embarrassment for the Government thatis a fact.   In addition he achieved the purposes of the ANC quiteobviously, that was quite clear to everybody.  At the time thecomrades were very strongly present in Kwandabele, for one tomake a distinction between when a comrade or when Mr Ntuli burneddown a house in Kwandabele, that was very difficult.   As faras we were concerned, the Security Branch, he simply advancedthe purposes of the ANC at that time by making the area ungovernable,entirely ungovernable.   At that time there were major discussions,negotiations, with a view to the independence of Kwandabele butin view of the unrest this would not have been possible.  It wasfirst necessary to stabilise the area.   If I'm not entirely mistaken,shortly after this incident the Kwandabele members of Parliamentwent down to Cape Town to negotiate with the National Party withregard to the independence, but this is only what I have heard,this is hearsay I only heard from the investigative officers thatthe Cabinet members had gone down to Cape Town.   There mightbe testimony in this regard I see there are members of the thenGovernment available here but I wouldn't know.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you say that the Kwandabele Governmentknew about the plan to eliminate Pete Ntuli?

ANSWER: I doubt that very strongly but that of courseis only my perception and when I said I was too small, too insignificantI mean that I was too low down in the hierarchy of command tobe aware or informed of such decisions.
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<UNKNOWN>: You told us that you planted the bomb in Pete
Ntuli's car, could you tell us exactly where you placed it?

ANSWER: Chair yes, this particular bomb - as I've alreadygiven testimony - was designed with this particular purpose inmind.   It was placed immediately under Mr Ntuli's seat on theoutside of the vehicle, directly under his driver's seat.   Itwas shaped in such a way or built in such a way that one coulduse a screw to attach it to the vehicle as such which meant thatthe bomb for instance, while the vehicle was driving and it wasimpossible to detonate the bomb, then the bomb wouldn't have fallenoff the vehicle.   It was purpose built so that in the dark, withoutbeing able to see anything, I could screw it onto the vehicle.

<UNKNOWN>: Was Mr Ntuli, if you know this Captain, everdetained in the past?

ANSWER: I would not be able to answer on that Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Captain do you know the political affiliationof the persons whose houses were burned down by Mr Ntuli?

ANSWER: Unfortunately not Chair, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meintjies have you any questions to putto this witness?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman may I perhaps just beforeMr Meintjies asks questions just place it on record Mr Chairmanthat he represents Jaap Van Jaarsveld who is a 204 State witnesswhom the applicants made an application about at the beginningof this matter and who in accordance with the Committee's decision,cannot give evidence at these hearings in support of the applicants.  I just want to place that on record Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in other words Mr Van Jaarsveld cannotgive
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evidence in this case?

MR DU PLESSIS: : No he's not giving evidence but he's representativeis being allowed to cross-examine the witnesses.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Du Plessis you will recall that our positionis that while we cannot issue subpoena against him, he is freeto come and testify if he wants to.

MR DU PLESSIS: : I realise that, I'm not fighting withthe Committee, I simply want to place this fact on record.

JUDGE WILSON: : You used the word "he cannot"give evidence though, that is not the position is it, he cannotbe compelled by you to give evidence but he can on his own?