Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR LAX: Sorry.  One of the people who was in that place calls it a flat, she said it was called a flat.  Jantjie called it that, but also - I'm just reading from the girlfriend's statement, she says the place was called: Number 2, Motala Flats.  If you look at page 45, that's what she calls it.  It's in the second paragraph of that, roughly the third line of that paragraph.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson, for that explanation, but I would in the usual language used by the Lesotho people, those houses are called "liners" or "lines".  So that's the language which was used by the Lesotho people there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know what flats are.  Personally, you know what flats are?

MR VISSER: Sorry, was the question asked, I'm not sure?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VISSER: I'm terribly sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked him, I said he knows what flats are?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And we are here South Africans, we speak in the South African language, when we mean flats, do you understand it in that context?  In other words, I'm not saying tell us what the Lesotho people say or call houses.  Do you follow what I'm saying to you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, in the usual language, either in Lesotho and in South Africa, those we used to call "Maline", and I don't what to say in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a house on top of another?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: In those lines, were those houses having one house on top of another?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: They were adjoining houses, you know, houses are next, one to the other, so just flat, there were no other houses on top.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take here in Bloemfontein, we have high buildings, offices, where you've got to use a lift in this instance, in other words it means there is a floor on top of another floor, were those houses something similar to that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, I was wasting time, not much turns on this.
	Did you then enter this house?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Sir, the police from Lesotho got into the building and we followed after them.

MR VISSER: After the lunch adjournment I'd asked you what happened then ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a misunderstanding here, because what came through the interpretation was: "It's a building".

MR VISSER: Well I didn't know what to refer to it as and I referred to it in Afrikaans as "'n woning", which was interpreted as a house and which was further interpreted as a building, Chairperson.  But I think for the record, if we simply say we refer to it as whatever, without specifying exactly what particular kind of building it was, because really, nothing turns on whether it was a flat or whether it was a house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MR VISSER: ... is correct, yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, it's 1 o'clock, I thought you might wish to take the luncheon adjournment.  Or are you like my ex-colleague, Mr Nico Coetzee, who works through lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.  We'll take the lunch adjournment until two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, just before our lunch adjournment we reached the point where yourself and Jantjie and the two Lesotho policemen of the Roma Police Station arrived at this, let us call it a building, did you knock or what happened?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I mentioned already that the police from Lesotho were in front of us, they were in the front and we followed.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Was the door open?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did the policemen of Lesotho enter?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: And did you follow them into the room?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: What did you notice in this room, how many people were present?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we found two people in the house.

MR VISSER: There is a lady by the name of Lindiwe Makebe, no sorry, Mabeke, who states that her sister was also present at that stage in that building.  What do you say about that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I recall getting two people in the house.

MR VISSER: Is it possible that there could have been a third person whom you forgot?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, there is that possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you, Mr Visser.
	How many rooms did this house have?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: According to my recollection, Chairperson, we were in a room, so it was a one-room building.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser, you may proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	What happened then in that room?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: My recollection tells me that the one policeman from Lesotho asked the people their names and if I recall, KK was asked whether he was attending school, KK said yes and the police requested a student card but KK could not produce the student card.

MR VISSER: The other person in the room, the lady, was she also asked for a student card?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, the lady was also requested for the student card.

MR VISSER: Did she give them one?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened then, what did the policemen do?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: After the police searched the house, there was a bed on which KK was seated, when they lifted the mattress they discovered a small bag underneath the mattress, the bag contained handgrenades.  KK was then arrested.

MR VISSER: Did you say that the bag contained handgrenades (in the plural)?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: According to my recollection there were two handgrenades.

MR VISSER: Very well.  And you also say that KK was then arrested.  Was this now, did the Lesotho policemen arrest him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, the policemen from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: I want to ask you now if you can recall if KK's friend was arrested with him.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I recall that she was arrested with him.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Can you recall if you, this is now the four of you, the four policemen, if you went with KK to his house?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall that one, Sir.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Where did you go then with KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we went back to Roma Police Station.

MR VISSER: And what happened there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall, I do not know well what happened, Mr Jantjie and the other policemen communicated and I don't know what the result of the discussion was, because KK was handed over to us.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We got into the car, I was the driver and Jantjie was with me and he was taking care of KK, so that he doesn't do anything.

MR VISSER: Was KK's arms or legs tied or cuffed in any way?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, when KK got arrested his hands were tied, but not with handcuffs, his belt was used to tie his hands, but the legs were not tied at all.

MR VISSER: And who tied his hands?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall well, Chairperson, unfortunately.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Did you then go through the border with KK, to the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you have any further dealings with KK after this?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, on our arrival it was not only KK at the farm and I did not do anything, he was in Mr Jantjie's hands all the time.

MR VISSER: So in other words, the short answer would be that no, you had nothing further to do with him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Nothing at all, Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you know what happened to KK after this?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not know anything, Sir, of what happened to him thereafter.