Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

MR SMUTS: I mean Mr Mazwi when you went to go and set up the ambush, you knew that you were setting up an ambush for a fishing party which was going to return home.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe for the purposes of the application, it will be fair to put to him that the party was a fishing party intending to return home, and not infiltrators.

MR SMUTS: That might be two issues in the light of what Mr Maxhayi gave evidence about Mr Chairman, that is why I wanted to know as specifically as I could.

CHAIRPERSON: Deal with them, let's see what he answers.

LUNGILE MAZWI: Before we could move, we did not intend to attack the fishermen.  We got that information while we were there that some cars had gone to a certain coast.

MR SMUTS: And you were told by a herdboy that the people had gone fishing?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was not told, but this is what I said during the confession.

MR SMUTS: No, no, Mr Mazwi, I asked you to confirm or deny whether this information which you recorded that you were told by a herdboy that whites had gone fishing, in fact correctly reflected what happened on the day in question, and you confirmed that it did.
	Do you now wish to deny that it happened?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was agreeing, I was admitting what you were reading to me.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were asked if that was the truth, and you said yes.

LUNGILE MAZWI: I thought that he was actually asking me about the statement that he was reading.

MR SMUTS: Mr Mazwi, do you wish to retract your admission that the statement that you were informed by a herdboy that the whites had gone fishing, was true?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As I have said that whatever I was saying in that statement, I was actually trying to save myself from prosecution.  Everything that I said there, was not true.  I wanted to save myself from the situation.

MR SMUTS: I want to be fair to you Mr Mazwi, are you saying that the contents of this statement was false and was an attempt to save yourself from prosecution?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is what I am saying, but some of the things, it is information that I got, I heard from someone.

MR SMUTS: Well, how did you think you were going to save yourself from prosecution by saying that you lay and wait for a vehicle and when the 4 x 4 van bypassed ours, those who were laying had fired shots at it and it capsized.  Would you explain to the Committee how you thought that was going to save you from prosecution?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As I said, some of things there are true, but some of them are not true.  I just wanted to be free.  It is the policemen who took me to the Magistrate, not the Prosecutors.

MR SMUTS: Well, let's try the present version then.  Are you now saying that some of what is in the statement is true, and some of it is not?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is so.

MR SMUTS: It was not a statement made to save you from prosecution?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by trying to save yourself from prosecution?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Sir, I am not saying I was saving myself from the Prosecutors, but I was actually, I wanted to save myself from the police because they were forcing me to do anything and they were actually assaulting me.  I was doing everything under duress.

MR SMUTS: Will you explain ...

ADV DE JAGER: Now there is no policemen now threatening you and you are not giving evidence under duress, did a herdboy inform your colleagues or yourself about some white men that had travelled to the sea in a 4 x 4 van to catch fish?

LUNGILE MAZWI: About this young herdboy, but I think they did meet with this young boy.  I am not sure whether it was a servant or what, but someone told them about the cars that had gone to another coast.
	I did not meet with this herdboy.

ADV DE JAGER: And they told you on returning, that they had met a herdboy or someone who told them that the car went to another resort to catch fish?  Is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As I said before sir, that when I came back the comrades who had gone to inspect the place, were back and they were talking to other comrades.
	I did enquire about their results, what they found when they had been inside the flats, I got the information that some cars had gone to another coast.

ADV DE JAGER: To catch fish or not?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, they did mention the fact that they had gone fishing.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR SMUTS: And so I repeat the proposition I put to you, by the time that you went to set the ambush for the vehicle that you expected to return, you knew that you were setting an ambush for a fishing party?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I cannot deny the fact that they said they were fishermen, because I know that they might pretend as if they were fishers, it was a fishing party whereas they were not.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think they were?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It is because I know that a person can pretend to be doing something else, whereas that is not the case.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the answer to my question.  What did you think that party was or those people were?  What did you think they were doing there at the resort?
	If you thought they could also be pretending to be fishermen, what else could they have been?  What did you think they were?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I regarded them as their other friends from Port St Johns, that were also enemies.

CHAIRPERSON: What were they doing?  Why were they enemies?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Because they were an obstacle in the way of our struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazwi, what did they do that presented an obstacle to the struggle?  What did you think they did or were doing, or had done or were going to do?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As I said before, that the comrades from Port St Johns told us about their problem.  They mentioned something about disturbances and arms and attacks were expected.

MR SMUTS: With fishing rods Mr Mazwi?  Were you expecting an attack with fishing rods?

LUNGILE MAZWI: They would take their fishing equipment with, whereas at the same time they would have grenades and other sorts of ammunition.

MR SMUTS: Did you have any evidence of any kind whatsoever, that the people that you were about to ambush and attempt to kill, were anything other than a genuine fishing party on holiday?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I do not deny the fact that they were holiday makers who went fishing, but at the time I did not have that knowledge.  I was actually expecting an enemy.  I was waiting for an enemy.

ADV DE JAGER: I've got one problem, and I wish to put it now because I think that could either prolong or shorten the proceedings.
	You went there to retaliate the death of Chris Hani, isn't that true?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And it wouldn't have mattered whether you saw Mr Weakley or whether you saw Mr X or whether you saw Mr De Jager there, if he was a white man, you would have killed him?

LUNGILE MAZWI: If I would get him to a place or a spot that was identified as a problem, if I don't know that person, as long as I was told that that particular place had those people who were enemies, I would do that, I would kill him.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you consider the white people to be your enemies at that stage, on that very day?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I did not regard all the white men as my enemy.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you regard Mr Weakley as your enemy?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Because of the place where he was found and as a person that I did not know, it was easy for me to identify him as my enemy.

ADV DE JAGER: Because he was in that place, you identified him as your enemy?  Is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, as they said that the place was actually frequented by the people who were regarded as enemies, therefore I regarded him as an enemy.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, who gave you that information that that place was frequented by the enemy, who is that person, what is his name?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The comrades from Port St Johns told me that one of the places that ...