Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, Chairperson, the name which was given to me was Rudy Erwee, the CCB gave me that name, but I completed documentation for the false passport and ID and that was done under the name of H J van Staden.

MR COETZEE: And with the recruitment of McQuillan, was the name given to you to attempt to recruit him, or was this something that emerged spontaneously?

FERDINAND BARNARD: This was one of the first fruits that I reaped from the network that I had begun to establish.  He was an international gold and precious stones smuggler.  I had come to hear of him and I originally came to know of him through the Indian Mafia.  A figure in the Mafia approached me and asked me if I would be prepared to provide security for him.  This man was coming from Zimbabwe and they wanted to conduct a gold transaction with unprocessed gold of 10 kgs and he wanted to determine whether or not there would be a police trap.  As a result of this, I identified George Mitchell who was with him.  He was a former policeman from the narcotics desk at John Vorster Square.  I had various meetings with them.  The business was conducted and from discussions with Mitchell and later McQuillan, I realised that McQuillan was a suitable person for the activities of the CCB.  I reported this to Lafras Luitingh, I told him that there was such a person, because McQuillan was in and out.  This business with the gold was conducted on a fortnightly or three weekly basis and I became acquainted with McQuillan and he told me he had a military background.  I gave him the cover story of CCB, the consortium of business persons and when I told him this for the first time, he told me that he thought I was working for Military Intelligence or National Intelligence, that was his suspicion and that if this was correct, he would be prepared to provide me with information but not in Zimbabwe where he and his loved ones resided.  He also told me that he had extensive contacts in Europe and in London.  Among others, he showed a passport to me and I saw that he was well read.

MR COETZEE: You also then reported this to Lafras Luitingh?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that's correct.

MR COETZEE: And was there indeed interest concerning the recruitment of McQuillan?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, there was a lot of interest, Honourable Chairperson and Lafras Luitingh came to me and he told me that I must chase McQuillan concerning if he had people who could do hard-line work and he referred to the killing of people, the poisoning of people and the planting of bombs in Europe especially.

MR COETZEE: How did it come that you had a discussion about the killing of people?  How did it come that this formed part of your frame of reference, that people would be killed?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Honourable Chairperson, it was spontaneous.  he informed me more and more.

MR COETZEE: This is now Lafras Luitingh?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, he informed me more and more and I realised that the same thing that was told to others on a course, was told to me on a one on one basis, amongst others by Danie Phaal, as well as Lafras Luitingh and they told me that we're not going to work in a very soft way, we're going to be hard with them.

MR COETZEE: You didn't have a problem, or you had a problem with it or not?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I didn't, I just did not want to join any right-wing organisation.  I was so naive that I believed that if the Government was involved it was also justified.  Another point that created this perception with me or strengthened it was that when I was recruited by Joe Verster, I went as to go for an ordinary job interview.  I went with a briefcase, with the qualifications that I had.  I had my matric certificate, I had legal subjects, I had various courses that I underwent in the police, some of them were quite advanced.  I underwent certain courses in Unisa, I had a BA degree, I took those qualifications with me and they didn't want to see it.  When I took it out, he said:  "No, well congratulations, you've got the job" and they did not want to see it, not him or Danie Phaal and then they told me:  "What cars can you steal?  What cars can you open and What weapons can you work with?"

MR COETZEE: And could you steal cars?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I can still steal cars.

MR COETZEE: I am sorry if we now deviated from the point, but I would like to highlight this point.  Evidence was led by the other witnesses, or applicants, that the CCB explained that they did kill and was this explained to you in such a way?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR COETZEE: Mr McQuillan was recruited or he was identified, and what happened then?  What was his application, or what did his recruitment entail?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, the situation was created where Lafras Luitingh called me one day and he told me we must now get McQuillan to become active and this was about Klaas de Jonge and then he gave me 15 000 American dollars with which I must task Mr McQuillan and that's what I did.

MR COETZEE: What was his task?

FERDINAND BARNARD: He had to go to London, create a safe house in London, he had to recruit criminal elements by paying them certain amounts of money for so-called hard-line work.  He had to get hold of a second-hand car that can be used for transportation and he had to set up the whole system and then he had to wait for the tasks.  A further 15 000 dollars would be handed over to him for payment and for further tasks but I would not have been involved in that.

MR COETZEE: Very well, it was told to him or it was told to you what would happen to Klaas de Jonge.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, yes.  Klaas de Jonge project, I received pieces of information concerning this and what I could infer from discussions that I had with Lafras Luitingh, was that the South African Government and especially now the politicians of the day, were very angry at him.  It was about the fact that he escaped from police custody, went to the Dutch embassy, which was a very great embarrassment for the Government, he sat there for months and he waived at the cameras and I followed this in the media at that time.  Lafras Luitingh then for example told me and the words that he used was that:  "The cunt must die" and this comes from the top, from the President's level.

MR COETZEE: Was this tasking of McQuillan, would this lead to it, the tasking of McQuillan?  Did you understand it in such a way?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes and they wanted to kill him.  The whole project was geared towards that, the killing of him.

MR COETZEE: Very well, Mr Barnard, I do not want to tell you not to use these type of words, but your language at this stage is probably influenced by your environment.  Maybe you can just explain to the Committee or the Chairperson what the situation is.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I apologise if I use such language.  It is not really about my circumstances in the prison, but in the past I testified where a Chairperson told me that I must call a spade a spade.  Unfortunately there are certain circumstances where I will in future evidence in discussions between myself and Slang van Zyl, where it will come up again, where I want to create the circumstances, for example in Apie, where I want to create the idea about what exactly happened between the two of us and I'd like to call a spade a spade then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well Mr Barnard, we'd prefer it if you don't swear when you, in discussion as such, but if you have to use swear words to quote people, obviously we want you to tell us exactly what was said.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I understand it in such a way and I will keep it in mind.  I would also like to indicate when it happens, if it will help, I don't know.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, could the applicant just speak a bit slower?  The interpreters are struggling.  Thanks.