Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR CELE: If I remember correctly, Mr Cele said he had no knowledge of a hut that remained, he did not specifically say that there was a house that was not burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: He specifically said Mr Bonny Cele's house was not burnt down.

MR CELE: That was what was put to him and he responded by saying that he had no knowledge thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: I could be wrong, but my recollection is that he did state that Bonny Cele's house was not burnt down.  That's my recollection of his evidence yesterday.

MR CELE: He did not say so.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, did you see ...(intervention)

MR CELE: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, did you see any other house being burnt down?  Because your evidence also has only been to the effect that only the main house that belonged to Amos Cele, was burnt down.  That is the evidence that is before us.  Your evidence has not suggested in any way whatsoever, that other houses were also burnt down.

MR CELE: When I mentioned the house I was referring to every other house that was on the premises, I did not name specifically just one house.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	I would like to read you this, Mr Cele, it's from the judgment ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) was Bonny's house burnt down too?

MR CELE: It is not Bonny's house, but a hut that is on Mr Amos Cele's premises.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but was Bonny's hut burnt down?

MR CELE: Every hut that was on that premises was burnt down.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  Maybe I should make a follow-up question on that, before I proceed.
	In your evidence earlier on you had stated that when Amos Cele's house was burnt you were not there because you had run after Bonny Cele, who was running away.  Do you remember that?

MR CELE: Yes, I do remember.

MS THABETHE: Now what evidence do you have that all the houses in Amos Cele's kraal were burnt if you were not there?

MR CELE: I say this because I'm referring to a house that is in my area.  You could see that everything had been burnt down.

MS THABETHE: I'm not sure if I'm getting your answer correctly, are you saying you saw that all the houses were burnt down, or are you assuming that all the houses were burnt down?

MR CELE: I am not assuming it, I know it for a fact that every house was burnt.  After we had chased these people we returned and it was clear to see that everything had been burnt down.

MS THABETHE: Well I've already stated that my instructions are that not all the houses were burnt down and you have responded to that, so let's proceed.
	With regard to the killing of Amos Cele - maybe before I start asking questions, Mr de Jager has questioned how old Mr Amos Cele was and my instructions are that he was 79 years old, Mr de Jager and the Honourable Members of the Committee.
	My instructions Mr Cele, are that the incident happened at around 5 o'clock to 5.30 in the afternoon and not at 7p.m.  Would you dispute this?

MR CELE: I do dispute it.

MS THABETHE: You have stated that ..(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?
	How did you know that the incident happened at about 7p.m.?  What made you to be so alert to the issue of time, when this incident happened?

MR CELE: In summer everybody knows that it only gets at around seven.  At about 5 o'clock the sun is still out, it's still not dark.

CHAIRPERSON: So when this incident happened, it was in the early hours of the evening?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It was almost dark?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	My instructions, Mr Cele, are that you are not telling the truth when you say Mr Amos Cele went to your house to attack you and that is how he got to be killed.  My instructions are that what had occurred is that a group of people came to his house, he was taken outside to a bush where he was killed.  What is your response to that?

MR CELE: That person has given you false instructions.

MS THABETHE: I would like to read from the judgment, on page 118 at of the bundle, and Mr Cele, I would like you to listen.  It's on line 13(?), page 118.  It says
"On the evidence of Ngcobo, Beauty and Tandi, the group got hold of the deceased (the deceased in this case is Amos Cele) and marched him along a path which when past Madlala's kraal."
I'll go down until the second-last sentence.  It says:
"From there the group disappeared into a bush and it was in that bush that the deceased was killed."
Just before line 10, I proceed:
"It appears that the deceased was stabbed and shot once with a home-made firearm.  He was also set alight by means of the by now well-known necklace method.  A tyre was namely put over and tied onto him.  Petrol was poured over it and it was set alight. It is not clear however, whether the necklacing occurred before or after he was killed.  The post-mortem examination could not throw any light on this question, in fact the body of the deceased was so badly burnt that Dr Govender was unable to determine the cause of death.  He even found it impossible to say whether or not the deceased had been stabbed or shot."
What is your response to that?

MR CELE: What I can comment about the evidence that was rendered in Court, it was false evidence because everybody who testified in Court had already fled the area because they knew that if they were to be seen in that area they would be in trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you stab the deceased at any stage?

MR CELE: No, I did not stab him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any person in your group stabbing the deceased at any stage?

MR CELE: No, I did not see anyone stabbing him.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were with you at the time when you shot at the deceased?

MR CELE: There were many of us, more than 10.

CHAIRPERSON: And exactly where were you when you shot the deceased?  How far were you from Madlala's kraal?

MR CELE: It was not very far from Mr Madlala's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: And how far is Madlala's kraal from your house?

MR CELE: It is close to my house, it's not very far.

CHAIRPERSON: How close, in terms of paces?  Can you estimate by probably pointing inside the hall, how far Madlala would be from that point to where the doors of this hall are?

MR CELE: I cannot estimate in this hall, this space is too short.  It is a bit further than this area.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many of you were armed when this incident occurred?

MR CELE: There was no person who was unarmed in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about your group.  How many of you in your group were armed?

MR CELE: I am aware of myself, but I can say that the others in my group were also armed, although I could not specify just how many of them were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you witness anyone of your group pouring petrol around the deceased, I mean on the deceased?

MR CELE: No, I did not see anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see anyone putting a tyre around his neck?

MR CELE: No, I did not see anybody with a tyre in his possession.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left the scene, what was the state of the deceased?  Did you leave him there after you had shot at him and was he there after having been shot and you didn't see anyone putting fire on his body?  Is that how you left the scene?

MR CELE: I cannot dispute that his body could have been burnt, but I did not witness that because all of this happened quickly.  We just shot him and left him there immediately, because we were still looking for the others that he had been with.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the last person to leave the scene?

MR CELE: No, I was not.

CHAIRPERSON: After you had shot at the deceased, what happened?

MR CELE: We then tried to rush after the others who had run in different directions and when we failed to locate them we returned to your homes.

CHAIRPERSON: So the whole group was still pursuing the others who were with the deceased?