Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Thank you. I have listened here with interest especially when you are dealing with this inter-organisational conflict. I just want to hear from the members of the ANC, I know that attempts are being made now, I'm speaking about the ANC and IFP, I think Zuma and Mdhalose have played a very good part in trying to resolve some of the issues. But my concern is that why did you people have to wait for such a long time that much of the blood had to be shed, old people died, innocent people who knew nothing about politics, children etc, and you came at this last hour? A very simple question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zuma.

MR ZUMA: Thank you Chairperson. No, we did not wait. I think history will indicate that even before the ANC was unbanned there were very vigorous negotiations between the UDF on one side and the IFP on the other. And when the ANC was unbanned we have continuously done so. My brother will remember that we had one of the big meetings in 1991 between the IFP entire executive and our delegation and also we even established committees which we have called "Twelve A-side". We actually went to a lot of discussions, leaving aside the local agreements that were reached at a number of places. I think it was a question of time that we were not in a position to succeed then. We had been continuing with the discussions and negotiations, and I think given time and the changing situation in the country probably that is what has led to the kind of initiatives to look like they were new initiatives. Probably we are debating matters from a different angle. We have approached the matters all the time from different angles. It just couldn't work out at one point or the other.
I remember between the IFP and the UDF there were in fact specific agreements but which could not be honoured. Some of them could not be respected by certain people. So I would say that we haven't waited. We have always tried. We just succeeded in the recent past, probably by the grace of God.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any other questions from the panel here?
We would like to say thank you very much. We haven't finished. I had hoped that we were going to have finished today but perhaps let us try to find out, if we were to have begun at nine is it possible to do that, to begin at nine tomorrow? I would have thought that maybe two hours at the outside, two hours would enable us to complete. You want to surprise us and arrive again at about.....
I thank you very much. I will have closing remarks tomorrow, but we are very grateful for the manner in which the meeting has gone and the sorts of answers that you have given.
We adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you very much.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS: DAY TWO - 13 MAY 1997

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We resume. Can we start, Dumisa Ntsebeza says he has one or two questions before we go on to ask Mr Hanif Vally to continue. Dumisa.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson. I would really like to go back to an aspect that was raised yesterday over actions associated with Mrs Winnie Mandela, and I would like to raise the questions in perspective because it is increasingly becoming important because she is just no ordinary person. She is the current President of the Women's League, and we may or may not call her to answer these questions for herself, but I think from an organisational point of view we would like to know, firstly, whether the claims that have been made in the TRC and I'm talking about in the Human Rights Violations Committee last year by particularly the relatives of Lolo Sono and Siboniso Tshabalala, who are youths who disappeared or are alleged to have disappeared and with whose disappearance Mrs Winnie Mandela is associated. Now I would like to know whether from an organisational point of view this is something that has been raised with her, and whether the organisation is doing something about that. That's the first question.
The second question, in view of your commitment to assist the Commission, there is a name that was always associated with the Stompi Sepei saga, one Thebe Khulu who was at one stage reported to have been in Lusaka in Zambia. Now the question I'd like to know is whether the organisation, as an organisation have any knowledge of the whereabouts of Thebe Khulu, and if they have whether they could use their good offices to facilitate our access to him? Those are the questions I would like to pose.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much Chairperson. First of all let me apologise for Jacob Zuma. He said we should extend his apologies. He's had to go back to KwaZulu Natal, the Provincial Legislature there is discussing something, and as leader of the opposition, a position to which the ANC is not quite accustomed (general laughter), but nevertheless he had to go back as leader of the opposition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Deputy President.

UNKNOWN: I don't know, my colleagues might know where Thebe Khulu is. What I would like to say about that is that when we got the information that he was in Zambia we were in contact with the Zambian Government about this to say that as far as we are concerned he needs to come back. What the Zambian Government said to us then was that he was saying that he was afraid to come back, and the efforts that they had made to get him to return were frustrated by that fear. And we had said to them that there wasn't any problem, there was nothing for him to fear.
So at that particular point there were problems about getting him to cooperate with regard to his repatriation, and in the end, at that particular point we left the matter because he couldn't be moved and was then going to be dealt with by the UN High Commission for Refugees in Zambia. I don't know, as I say my colleagues might know something more specific about where he is now. I really wouldn't know.
With regard to the other questions that Commissioner Ntsebeza is raising, we - my colleagues I presume would have said this yesterday, President Tambo was in contact with Winnie during this period when all of these reports about all sorts of things happening, to advise for one thing, against the continuation of the existence of what was called the Mandela Football Club.
The ANC as an organisation, both the structures inside the country and the structures outside did not deal with that Football Club and people associated with it as elements within the structures of the ANC, and so there may be things that may have happened there which do not have anything to do with the ANC as I say, because these were not structures of the ANC. But certainly at that time we felt that the behaviour of the Mandela Football Club and people associated with it was harmful, and these were things that needed to be discontinued. As I said to that extent we encouraged her to part ways, as it were, with that Football Club. I don't know the specific names, Sono and Tshabalala. Matthews Phosa will add something to this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Premier Phosa.

PREMIER MATTHEWS PHOSA: Thank you Chairperson. In addition to what the Deputy President has just said about this matter regarding the Lolo and Sibosiso, we have been approached by the families first and we have also been approached by your investigating unit, and we have been cooperative. And given the status of the Club, as viewed from the ANC we can only undertake to continue to cooperate with you in your investigations. We will suggest that the members of the Club be approached and then collect as much evidence as possible, because it's also a dark area from our side. We have sent correspondences to Comrade Winnie with regard to this matter as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand Malan.