Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 2000-05-08

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  For the record, I am Judge Pillay, I am going to ask my two colleagues to announce themselves for the purpose of the record, and so to the various representatives.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Chris de Jager.

ADV SIGODI: Sibongile Sigodi.

MR NDOU: I am Patrick Ndou, I am the Attorney appearing on behalf of the applicants in all these matters.

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the Leader of Evidence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: My name is Stephan van Rensburg, I appear on behalf of the victims in this enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: For those who are interested in those things, a translation of the evidence into the Venda language will be found on channel 3 and the English channel is channel 2.  I have been asked to inform everybody in this room, to see to it that all cellphones are switched off, thank you.  I understand we are starting with what is referred to as incident 2 on the roll?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, it is the continuation of a hearing on the incident relating to the murder of Edward Mavhunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ndou?

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.  This is an application by three applicants, three remaining applicants from the previous hearing which was held last year.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on Mr Ndou, I just want to get something on record.  There are according to our list, 16 matters that were set down for this hearing?

MR MAPOMA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to confirm that the following have been withdrawn - matters 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 and 13?

MR MAPOMA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And in regard to matter 2, applicant Maivha, what is his position?

MR NDOU: As I understand Honourable Chairman, I spoke to some of the applicants now, I understand they have managed to get hold of him in Johannesburg, he will possibly be here today, his affidavit is here.  If he does arrive, he will just sign his affidavit and then we can bring it in.

CHAIRPERSON: How long are we going to wait for him then?

MR NDOU: The understanding is if he doesn't turn up, we will just finalise the matter as it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Without him?  But if he has indicated a willingness and intention to participate in this application, then he has that right, isn't it?

MR NDOU: Yes, he does have that right, but as I understood from one of his co-applicants, he managed to get hold of him and he promised to be here today from Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: When did they get hold of him?

MR NDOU: On Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he not here?

MR NDOU: No, he is not yet here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a contact number that anybody can reach him?

MR NDOU: If I can have the Chairman's indulgence, let me just find out.  Honourable Chairman, his co-applicant tells me that he spoke to him on Friday and he was told that he would leave by train on Sunday evening, as soon as he gets to Louis Trichard, he will take a taxi and come straight to the hearing.  Sometimes we find the train arrives here around eight, nine and then they've got to take a taxi from Louis Trichard, which is 70 kilometres from here.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not sure whether he got onto the train or not, and whether he has arrived?

MR NDOU: All we can try to do is at tea time, to phone the number, he's got the number where they phone him all the time, so that we can find out if he is on his way or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, there is not going to be a tea time today, because we are in tea time already.  Is it not possible to give us the number?  Is it not possible to have that number, or your assistant, one of your assistants?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, on the last occasion when the majority of the applicants in this matter testified, did Mr Maivha hear that evidence?

MR NDOU: Yes, he did, he was here all the time.  He was only released I think in early January.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, we will come back to matter 2 now.  Matter 11, what is the position about Masera and Ntimane?

MR NDOU: As the Honourable Chairman pleases, I spoke now again to the applicant this morning, and he tells me he feels he is in a state in which he can testify.  He will be prepared to proceed with the application.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Masera's position?

MR NDOU: What number is that?

CHAIRPERSON: Matter 11, Masera?

MR NDOU: Oh, Masera is the one who is together with Ntimane.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on, the Interpreters cannot hear.

MR NDOU: Okay, under incident 11, the two applicants John Tshepiso Masera and Rodgers Ntimane, those are the people who could not be traced, we have tried everything possible and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Like what?

MR NDOU: In fact we proceeded to their homes, and the Committee phoned their relatives and it appeared that they are no longer interested, they said they are out of prison, they are no longer interested in proceeding with the matter.  Mr Abram Luhule can come and testify to that effect.  That is why here, when we wrote the letter on the 3rd of May, we indicated that it seems that they are no longer interested, they should be removed from the roll of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand it, the official position is that they informed you as their legal representative that those were their wishes?

MR NDOU: Yes, they are no longer cooperative, they say they are out, they are out.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And matter 12, Sithavhane and Raphulu?

MR NDOU: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: What are their positions?

MR NDOU: Similarly, these ones right from the outset, they indicated the intention that they were not interested in proceeding with the matter, these are the people who were released some two, three years ago.

CHAIRPERSON: So as their legal representative, you are informing us ...

MR NDOU: That we will withdraw that application.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then let us proceed.  Who are you calling?

MR NDOU: I am calling Johannes Makatu.  Before I proceed Honourable Chairman, my assistant tells me that she has been trying to get hold of these people on the phone, the phone is just ringing, there is no reply from the telephone number, but we will try again when we adjourn and see how far we go.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makatu, what language would you prefer to use?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Venda.

CHAIRPERSON: So be it.

JOHANNES MAKATU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman.   You are the applicant in this matter and you reside at Mavhunga Village, is that correct?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, it is correct.

MR NDOU: When were you born?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I was born on the 16th of July 1973.

MR NDOU: Is it correct that you are presently serving a 12 year prison sentence at the Thohoyandou Medium A Prison?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I am from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makatu, you were in the hearing when all the other applicants testified in respect of the event in which you apply now for amnesty?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard what they had to say?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I heard all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with that?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, definitely with everything, anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, what did you actually do in respect of that incident, what did you yourself do?

JOHANNES MAKATU: With regard to the incident, I threw stones to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at that meeting at the hall?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I attended, I used to attend various meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: No, do you remember the evidence was they met at the hall before they proceeded to the house of the deceased?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at that meeting?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you agreed with the reasoning and everything that was decided at the meeting in respect of what was going to happen to the deceased?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I agreed with all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you threw stones at the deceased?