Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

MR LANDMAN: We'll come to that a little bit later.  Did you collect the explosives from the DLB?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I did.

MR LANDMAN: The initial explosion which was to create a situation where a cordon would be put around the area, what device did you intend using to cause that explosion?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I used a mini limpet mine.

MR LANDMAN: Where did you obtain that mine from?

JOSEPH KGOELE: From the DLB that I had retrieved.

MR LANDMAN: After you'd retrieved the explosives from the DLB did anybody assist you in assembling the bomb?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No I did it all by myself.

MR LANDMAN: When did William Mabele become aware that he may be involved in an MK operation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I think after hearing the news on the radio or after the Johannesburg Magistrate explosion.

MR LANDMAN: Can you tell the Committee what happened on the morning of the bombing?

JOSEPH KGOELE: On the day in question I asked William Mabele to accompany me to town.  It was about six, past six in the morning.  So I told William Mabele to drive the other car, the straight car which was mine and I drove the bomb laden vehicle to the Magistrate's Court.  After parking the car at the identified place I went back to the car and drove William back to Soweto.  I then went back ... (intervention)

MR LANDMAN: If I could just interrupt you at this stage Mr Kgoele.  Why did you go to the scene so early in the morning?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I went there early in order to be able to locate a place where I would be able to park the car.  This had stemmed primarily from my previous visit to that area that if people - the cars were always parked around the street there and it was like a free parking so I wanted to go there early to be able to secure a parking place for the car.

MR LANDMAN: You said that William Mabele took you back to Soweto.  What happened after that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I went back to my hiding place, changed the clothing that I wore that particular morning, got hold of my Makarov pistol, armed myself with two hand grenades, retrieved the remote control devices and went back to the Magistrate's Court.

MR LANDMAN: What time did you arrive back at the Magistrate's Court?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I arrived at the Magistrate's Court at about half past eleven.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, what did you do there?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I surveyed the place because I had to make sure that I was not being followed and I wanted to make sure that when I started my mission or my operation that there were not a number of people around that area, so I moved around and at about ten past twelve I placed the mini limpet mind underneath another vehicle and the intention of that was to make that limpet mine act as a decoy.

MR LANDMAN: What time was the mini limpet mine expected to explode?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I had a time delaying element within that, it was timed to go off within fifteen minutes.

MR LANDMAN: Did you watch as the mini limpet mine exploded?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I did.

MR LANDMAN: Where were you at that stage?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Not far from where I had parked the car, there was a dry cleaners and a little kiosk I think about 30/40 metres from where I parked the car, so by that time I was sitting in the cafe and then when the bomb went out I went out and then I saw the police who were cordoning off the area.  I went back to where I had parked my car, retrieved the remote control device and when I realised that the police had already cordoned off the are and there were no at least civilian within the cordoned off area, I let go of the device.

MR LANDMAN: By that you mean you detonated the device did you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I did.

MR LANDMAN: Did you notice any policemen within the cordon at that stage?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Should there have been civilians within the cordon, what would you have done?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Like the ANC had submitted earlier, in a war situation casualties may be expected, but I would have tried to minimise loss of civilian life.  Like I indicated earlier, through past experience, whenever there was an explosion, the police will cordon off the area and the only people who would remain within that cordoned off area would be the police.

MR LANDMAN: Would it then be correct to say that the police behaved as you had expected on that day?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes they did.

MR LANDMAN: After the main explosion took place, what did you do?  Mr Chairman it might be a convenient time to break.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think three quarters of an hour will be sufficient for you?

MR LANDMAN: It ought to be.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until ...
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR LANDMAN: After you had detonated the explosion using the remote control device, what did you then do?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I left the scene and proceeded down I think Fox or Main Street and then when I reached Boland Bank I concealed the transmitter that I had held in my hand that I used to detonate the bomb.

MR LANDMAN: When you say you concealed it, did you leave it in a flower pot or the like?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I left underneath some flowers.

MR LANDMAN: What did you do after that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I went back to my hiding place.

MR LANDMAN: Now if I can refer you to your application for amnesty, and in particular to page 11 of that bundle, ... (end of tape)

MR LANDMAN: ... those are the further particulars that you supplied?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Ja.  Under the heading "Johannesburg Magistrate Court Attack" you have under certain sub headings, a) "Planning", then b) you say "The remote control devices were given to me by Kabusa (?).  Could you explain that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes Kabusa, when I say Kabusa I'm referring to General Siphiwe Nyanda.  The remote devices were given to me and the other explosives I had to retrieve from the DLB, only a sketch was supplied to me by Mr Shoke.

MR LANDMAN: The remote control devices given to you by Mr Nyanda, did you actually use them at the end of the day in this attack?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No the initial devices given to me were not used because I realised when testing them that I think they were mixed so I had to go back to Swaziland and exchange them with one that I got from Mr Shoke.

MR LANDMAN: When carrying out the attack upon the policemen at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court were you acting in your capacity as a member of MK?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I was.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I just confirm again that the application itself has been handed up to the Committee and forms part of the bundle.  It has also been signed under oath by the present applicant.  That then is the evidence in chief.

MR WAGNER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  On the last point raised by Mr Landman, the application was not signed under oath.

MR LANDMAN: Yes it has been pointed out to me, that is correct, I was looking at Mr Shoke's application.  If I might then just, at this stage, ask Mr Kgoele to look at the application which begins on page 3 of the bundle to page 9.  Do you confirm the contents of that application?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I do.

MR LANDMAN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I just possibly inform the Committee that that fact of non attestation had been brought to or came to our attention earlier on in the preparation and there is no attested form of Mr Kgoele in the original file in Cape Town.  We were unable to find an attested copy of the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Was his attention drawn to this as is the practice as I understand it of the Amnesty Committee?

ADV PRIOR: I was unable to find correspondence to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the normal practice or was the normal practice was it not that were forms were not attested, the attention of the applicant was drawn to it and it was remedied?

ADV PRIOR: I understand that that was followed in a number of cases, yes.