Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: When we were moving forward because we couldn't go back, we did not know what was happening there, we met a white person with his people in a farm.  I was behind and I was passing urine and he pointed these people with a gun and he told them to get into a van, a white van.  I don't remember whether it was a Mazda or Izuzu.
	They then got in the car, Nxala and Stephen Makhura.  He also told me to get into the car.  He was speaking Sotho and I didn't understand Sotho but it happened that I got in the car because I could see that he was pointing to this car.  We didn't know where he was taking us.  
	He drove in a high speed and we were scared because we didn't know where he was taking us.  Makhura said to me, he told me to take out my firearm so that I could scare him.  I then did so.  To scare him I shot on top, one shot, the first shot.  He didn't want to drive forward and there were people in that car.  There were also rods there, I didn't know what he was going to do with them.  
	Those people then grabbed me.  They tried to take my firearm.  Tony then stood up.  They didn't know that Tony, (Stephen) had a firearm.  He then pointed them with the firearm and this white man stopped the car, they jumped out of the car and they ran.  
	This white man continued driving.  I then shot for the second time.  He then stopped the car.  When he stopped the car he got out of the car and when he got out of the car he tried to come to our direction.  I thought that he was coming to me.  He then - when he stopped the car, Johannes jumped out of the car, he then met Tony and Tony realised that he was coming towards me.  I prepared myself for him because I could see that there was a fight.  Tony then shot him.  I didn't shoot at that time.  Tony shot twice.  We then ran away to the township.  That is all.

MR MHLABA: So you were subsequently arrested by the police at the township, is that correct?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, we were arrested by the police in the township.

MR MHLABA: In your application from, Mr Fokazi, you mentioned under paragraph 9(a) - I'm referring the Committee to page 3 of the paginated document, you have indicated under acts or omission or offences that you are applying for amnesty in respect of an offence of murder, attempted murder, robbery and possession of an illegal firearm and ammunition.  Are you able to explain to the Committee why you have applied for all those offences?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes.  First of all, when we were arrested it was found that I was involved in killing the police, one police and the other one was not dead at the time.  I also had an illegal firearm and they say that it was attempted murder, murder and possession of firearm.  That is why I've written these down, because I was there.
	If I was not there I wouldn't be involved even though I didn't take part in killing but I was there.  Because it was said that maybe we have planned this before.  So they said it's a common purpose.  That is why I made this application concerning these incidents because if I was not there, if I was at home I wouldn't have been arrested for that but because I was there with my co-accused who did this, I then applied and I was sentenced for life and 21 years.

MR MHLABA: So is it your case, Mr Fokazi, that in getting involved with the shooting of this white driver of the bakkie you were furthering the aims of your organisation?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR MHLABA: Is it your case that in getting involved in this very offence where you, which involves the incident where the driver of a white bakkie was shot, you were furthering the aims of your political organisation?  In other words you wanted to ensure that you arrive at your destination and execute the mandate of the organisation?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Do you have any other thing to add in support of your application for amnesty, Mr Fokazi?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, there is something that I would like to add concerning asking for forgiveness to the people, to the families of the victims because the victims were still young.  The deceased and the one who survived, I would like to apologise to their families because this is painful, nobody would enjoy this.  I would like to ask for forgiveness for my involvement in this case and to the people of South Africa at large.
	And to my, the family of my co-accused I would like to ask for forgiveness because now in this country there is democracy and I would like to build the nation, to build South Africa in a democratic country.  So I would like to ask for forgiveness with my whole heart, thank you.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: Yes, I have a couple of questions.
	What happened with the rest of your group at Bethlehem?  You have told us what happened to you, Fokazi and Nxala and somebody else but what about the other persons that were in your group when you set   out?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: As we were eight when we got to Bethlehem or in which group the people went who took the other line went to Ficksburg, which group are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: The whole group.  We know that Mr Makhura was arrested with you and we know that Mr Nxala was with you, what happened to Mr Ngala?  Then also, what happened to the other people in the other group that you know of?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Some of us when they ran to the other side, to Ficksburg, others were left in the fields.  According to the photos we saw in Court they died and their weapons were next to them, according to the photographs we saw in Court.  But fortunately to us and unfortunately to others two of them succeeded in running away.  They went to our homes to tell our families that some of us were arrested.
	Sebenzile Ndabeni was one of the people who were left there and Mac Gregor.  The two who ran away was Nozulu and Joe Makubela.  Joe is from Mozambique.  They told our families that we were arrested.  About Nxala, we were arrested with Nxala.  Nxala got me in prison, while I was in prison.  We were arrested with him.  	Mac Gregor and Sebenzile died and others ran away but Joe died.

DR TSOTSI: What about Nozulu, what happened to him?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I'm not sure now about Nozulu because of the situations in our areas.  As we were arrested in 1992, in 1992 amongst us there were informers and they would tell the police about our operations and some would die in that manner.
	So I don't know Nozulu.  There are a lot of people who died in that area and there's still conflict even now in that area so I don't want to lie because even Nozulu is not his name, it is his clan name.  We didn't know our real names at the time, we knew each other when we were arrested.  They used to call me Gadebe, they didn't know my name as Mandla Fokazi, so that is the way it is.

DR TSOTSI: Well where does Nozulu come from, where was his home, do you remember, do you know?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: He was from the Transkei as I am also from the Transkei.

DR TSOTSI: What part of the Transkei?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: ...(no English translation)

DR TSOTSI: ...(no English translation)

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I don't know where in the Transkei.  I don't know whether it's in Elliot or in Tsolo.  I'm not sure because he used to go in those places but I'm not sure where exactly he was from.

DR TSOTSI: Where was your home in the Transkei?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: In Katjane in Transkei.

DR TSOTSI: Were you trained there as a freedom fighter?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, I was trained.

DR TSOTSI: And was Nozulu trained also?