Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

MR MTHEMBU: This question I can explain.  Here you're talking about my being arrested for the first time.  I've been arrested several times and I cannot remember exactly when.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, let me go back to this affidavit.  I'm sorry, it's just been pointed out to me.  Mr Sibusiso Chonco, is he the same Mr Chonco that you referred to who was head of the Umsinga contingent?

MR MTHEMBU: The one that I am talking about is Damarra, I don't know about Sibusiso.

MR BERGER: You see, because I have a note here that you and a number of people including Mr Sibusiso Chonco were arrested by the police in 1990, that's why I asked you about that arrest but you say that you can't remember?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have explained Sir, that I do not remember because you are talking about 1990.  If you calculate from 1990 up to now, really I don't know how many years.  I do not record things as they happen.

CHAIRPERSON: All that you're being asked about now is Sibusiso Chonco.  Is Sibusiso Chonco the same person as Damarra Chonco, to your knowledge?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know I did explain Sir, I indicated the I know Damarra Chonco, not Sibusiso.  Maybe he is a different person.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a document in front of him which indicates that in 1990 you were arrested together with the person names Sibusiso Chonco.  You don't recall that incident?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't recall that.

MR BERGER: Did it happen that from 1990 onwards, as you've said the police used to raid Kwamadala Hostel at various intervals, did it happen during one of those raids that you were arrested?

MR MTHEMBU: What I still remember is that I was arrested at night in 1993 when the police came.

MR BERGER: Alright, let me go back to this affidavit.  "After the sentence I have seen many arms and ammunition stored at the Kwamadala Hostel"
is the sentence.
"Meetings were held every Tuesday and Thursday"
Is that correct Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: On what page is that Sir?

MR BERGER: You won't find that in the page before you, I'm reading from another affidavit.  I'm asking you, is it correct that every Tuesday and every Thursday meetings were held at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: We used to hold youth meetings on those days.

MR BERGER: Every Tuesday and every Thursday?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: It goes on
"At these meetings we were informed when new weapons had arrived"

MR MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge about that.

MR BERGER: Yesterday you told the Committee that you only had meetings three times a month.

MR MTHEMBU: I was giving you an example that we might perhaps hold meetings three times a month.  On Tuesdays and Wednesdays we sometimes never had an opportunity or for some reason not hold the meeting when we were supposed to.

MR BERGER: I just asked you whether meetings were held every Tuesday and every Thursday and you said yes.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I did admit.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, why is it that you are so reluctant to impart information all the time?  If you had meetings every Tuesday and every Thursday, why yesterday did you tell the Committee that you met three times a month?

MR MTHEMBU: You must also understand that you are asking me about something that happened some years ago.

MR BERGER: And why also yesterday did you say that your meetings were just the three of you, you, the chairperson and the secretary when now it seems that they were youth meetings every Tuesday and every Thursday?

MR MTHEMBU: Now you are asking me something which I really cannot answer, you are asking me about something that had already happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Well yesterday you mentioned that there were the three of you, I think Mr Buthelezi, yourself and Ntzwee was the other person.  Did the three of you meet separately from the rest of the members of the youth?

MR MTHEMBU: We used to meet with the other youth members, we did not hold our own separate meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: So every time the three of you meet you also meet together with representatives of the youth?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So the three meetings that you estimated you had a month, you were referring to those meetings?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now these meetings that you've just referred to now which were held every Tuesday and Thursday, who met at those meetings?

MR MTHEMBU: The whole youth would meet because they knew that we would hold meetings on Tuesdays and on Thursdays.

MR BERGER: My question Mr Mthembu is why did you not mention any of this yesterday?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not answer to something that has not been asked.

MR BERGER: I'll leave that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this perhaps be an appropriate time to take the tea adjournment?

MR BERGER: It would, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we will take the tea adjournment now and we will return at eleven thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, may I remind you that you're still under oath.

VICTOR MTHEMBU: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, is it not correct that Sibusiso Chonco and Damarra Chonco are the same person, one and the same person?

MR MTHEMBU: What I can say is I do not know whether it is the same person because I have just spoken of Damarra Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel is asking you is whether, is it not a fact that Damarra Chonco and Sibusiso Chonco is one and the same person.

MR MTHEMBU: I do not know this name Sibusiso Chonco.

MR BERGER: You knew Damarra Chonco from 1990 until 1993, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And the two of you were in the same unit, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Do you mean the youth?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR MTHEMBU: He was not in the youth.

MR BERGER: And in the unit that you spoke about earlier?  Do you remember you agreed with me that all residents were split up into units, was he in that unit?

CHAIRPERSON: That is now in the unit in which he belonged?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: His unit as I understand, consisted of himself, Buthelezi and Ntzwee.

MR BERGER: Oh, it's my mistake, I apologise for that Mr Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: As I under Chonco, Chonco was the leader of the Umsinga contingent.

MR BERGER: Is that correct Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And it was in that capacity as leader of this Umsinga contingent that you knew him from 1990?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know of a person called Darkie Chonco?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: Who is he?

MR MTHEMBU: He is Damarra Chonco's youngest brother.

MR BERGER: I want to turn back to Mr Vanana Zulu.  Do you see him today?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Is he sitting in this hall?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is he sitting there in the front row on the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: If you want the witness to identify Mr Zulu, why don't you just ask the witness to do so.  If he's here he must be somewhere around here.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, could you point out Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR MTHEMBU: There he is.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is a Mr Vanana Zulu inside the hall, would you please stand up?
VANANA ZULU STANDS UP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir.

MR BERGER: And the person who has just stood up now, Mr Vanana Zulu, he was sitting in that same seat just before the adjournment, is that not correct?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not see him before the break.

MR BERGER: At the break he came up to speak to you, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I was with him outside.

MR BERGER: And what did he tell you?

MR MTHEMBU: He greeted me.

MR BERGER: What else did he tell you?

MR MTHEMBU: He did not say anything else.

MR BERGER: How long did you spend with him outside?

MR MTHEMBU: It was not for long, I was with my co-accused at the time.

MR BERGER: And all he did was greet you and say nothing more?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, he just greeted me.