Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-19

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, because the news came with the taxi pirates.  Because the taxis, there were no taxis during that time, we were using cars as pirate taxis.  So the people who were from the station came with the news and said that the police are doing this in Nyanga Station.  So the decision to go and do something on that particular day was taken, it was a spontaneous decision, not a planned thing.  But we hold on that we must before anything happened, hold a commemorative service.

MS PATEL: So the commemorative service that was held on that day, was it planned prior to the 11th of August or was also a spur of the moment commemoration service?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, services that are being held in all these years are things that are known, even they were known by any Dick, Tom and Harry in the township that on this particular day something must happen.  Sometimes even the organisation which were involved in the township were also involved in organising these commemorative services.  So that was a known thing.

MS PATEL: Were you involved in the planning of this commemorative service?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Not directly involved per se, but I was part of the commemorative service because at that time we were busy trying to get people into their work and busy with the pirate taxis.

MS PATEL: So who planned the service, do you know?  Who planned the service?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: The service which was held in Assembly of God, as I've said we were in the terminus, we decided on the spot on the terminus that they must hold this service as Assembly of God, instead of Dutch Reformed Church, which I've said that it is being associated with the apartheid regime.

MS PATEL: So this wasn't a service that was planned beforehand, it was a spur of the moment service, is that what you're saying?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Come again?

MS PATEL: I'm just trying to get clarity on the service, whether it was organised prior to the date or not.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: No, the service as I've said that it was a thing that was going to happen, but this thing of an old woman being beaten in Nyanga Station, it was a spark to the whole thing, to a thing that was going to happen in any way.  Meaning that the service.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know where the service was going to be held?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Come again?

ADV SIGODI: As you say that you knew that on the 11th a service would be held, did you know where the service would be held?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Before the service was held, as I've said that we decided about the venue at the terminus.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know that you were going to meet at the terminus?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, exactly that we knew because we were operating, assisting people to board pirate taxis.

ADV SIGODI: Where to?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: To their work places because buses, the bus fares were so high our people couldn't afford to board buses.  So they were using pirate taxis and they were paying R1 at that time.

ADV SIGODI: Ja.  I hear you, but what we want to know is, how did the people know that they must meet at the terminus, or did the people know that there was going to be a service and if so, where was that service going to be?  Before you decided at the bus terminus that it must go to the Assembly of God church.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, I have said that a question of venue, the venue we decided on the spot in Terminus Road.  Terminus, why I'm saying that we decided at Terminus Road that there would be a service, in the morning of that day, prior to the incident of an old woman, in the morning of that day we have already decided that there will be a service in this place you see.
	As I've said before that it is a known thing that on this particular day services are held right throughout the country or right through Western Cape, that there must be a service on this date.  Though you might not know the service but you know that there must be a service and you will get the information as you move on where the service will be.  So what we did, we decided about the venue at the terminus, we went to the Assembly of God, to Mr Werner's church.

MS PATEL: Did you decide alone about the venue, or were there other people who made that decision with you?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Sorry, can you raise your voice a little bit.

MS PATEL: Did you decide alone about the venue, or did other people make that decision with you?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I am very sorry, the question seems to be ambiguous because I don't understand when you say "alone" you mean myself alone.

MS PATEL: Yes.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Did I personally decide alone?

MS PATEL: Yes, make the decision.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: About what?

MS PATEL: About the venue, the church, about the use of the church.  Did you make that decision on your own or was it a joint decision by you and other people?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I have said earlier here that we were discussing at terminus about the venue, so we were ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: Sorry, Mr Hlapo, it's a very simple question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Patel, just give him a chance please, be patient.  Explain what you want to explain, Mr Hlapo.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Thank you.  What I'm saying, I have said here we discussed at the terminus.  I even mentioned about two churches.  I said Dutch Reform was rejected.  I am the one who said Dutch Reform must be rejected because it's a church that is associated with the apartheid regime.  I influenced the course of decision, but I cannot say that I was the only, because the decision which was taken there was a collective one.

MS PATEL: Who was involved in this collective decision?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: We were involved in this collective decision.

MS PATEL: Can you give us names please.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I have mentioned accused number 17, that he was there in the terminus.  As I've said, we were many, so other people, their names I don't know them.  But a person who was very close to me, it was him.

MS PATEL: Alright.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: And I know him from Guguletu.

MS PATEL: Once you were at the church, who was the meeting chaired by?  Who chaired the meeting at the church?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: ...(inaudible) a little bit raise your voice because I have a problem with my right ear here.

MS PATEL: Don't you want to put your headset on, it will help.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Okay.

MS PATEL: Okay, is that better?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Very much better.

MS PATEL: Okay good, thank you.  Mr Hlapo, can you tell us who chaired the meeting at the church, at the Assembly of God church?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: The person who chaired the meeting at the Assembly of God church, was my friend Bongani.

MS PATEL: Mpondo?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay.

MS PATEL: And who were the other speakers present?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I was one of them.

MS PATEL: Ja, and who else.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: And many other people, like Diba was a speaker there.  And others I wouldn't know them because they were from different places.

MS PATEL: Okay.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel, may I just interpose here.
	Mr Hlapo, this Bongani, what was his position in the ANC?  Did he have any leadership position?