Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I recall that she was blindfolded.  I cannot recall that her hands and her feet were bound.  If her feet were bound, she would certainly not have been able to walk and we would have had to carry her and we didn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: How was she blindfolded?  Can you recall?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was a piece of cloth, or a piece of sheet.  Possibly a piece of sheet or a pillow case.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you also want to have her hands cuffed, most likely behind her back, in order to prevent her from tampering with the blindfold, pulling it off?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we were with her all the time and she wouldn't have been able to do anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, anybody, whether you were right there, you weren't holding her by her arms the whole time.  You said she was just on the floor of the vehicle.  If her hands weren't tied, she could easily have pulled the blindfold off.  I mean, that's just so patently obvious.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in such a case, when a person is held under force, you would tell them to be seated, you would tell them what to do, so that such a person wouldn't have a choice, they are kept under force and they are being told what to do and what is expected of them.

MR LAX: And you people did that, and you remember doing that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May she have been cuffed?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It is possible, Chairperson, but I cannot recall.

MR SAMUEL: Are you suggesting to this Commission that throughout this ordeal and after you all had put her into your vehicle, she had given you no resistance?  Is that what you are suggesting to ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: That's not what the evidence is, Mr Chairman.  He says there was resistance at the time of the arrest and thereafter, once she was put in the car, there wasn't resistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that when she was in the vehicle, she didn't struggle.  I can't recall precisely what was said about taken to the car other than she was half dragged and half carried.  I don't know if, perhaps you can ask a question on that, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Major, when Ms Khubeka, who was, in line with your evidence, she was a big built woman, overweight as you put it, did she give any resistance at that stage when you all dragged her out of the motor vehicle in which Mr Mbane was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot say exactly, she had no choice, we seized her and half picked her up and carried her.  She did not kick or scream.  We overpowered her completely.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that Major?  Why not just go up to her and flash your card and say "Look, come with us, we're the police" and let her walk to the vehicle?  Why have a whole group of you go in there and grab her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we were prepared to seize whoever would be in the car and to take them to our vehicle.  That was our plan and that is how we executed it.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask you, did you know immediately that this was Ms Khubeka, because you actually expected to find terrorists who had been trained abroad, as I understand it.  Did you realise that this woman was Ms Khubeka?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was only once we had her in the vehicle that I realised it was her.  We expected terrorists, but we also planned to seize everyone who was in the car and to arrest them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Did you look into that motor vehicle to see whether there were any other persons in that motor vehicle?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did, Chairperson, and Ms Khubeka was the only person who I recognised as someone who was not a C1 member, that is why she was the only person who was seized.

MR SAMUEL: How many of you all went to this motor vehicle to carry Ms Khubeka out?  Do you recall?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson it was me, Sgt van der Westhuizen, W/O Basson, Col Botha and I think that there were also members of C1 involved, but I cannot recall who from C1 was there of the white members of C1.

MR SAMUEL: Prior to this day in question when Ms Khubeka was handed to you, did Mr Mbane hand over any other people, other terrorists to you or to your group?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that he handed two persons to you, among them was one Sbu and you were present when he handed over Sbu to you all, who was also an ANC activist and later Sbu was killed by your group.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That he handed him over to me or in my presence?

MR SAMUEL: In your presence, Sir.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about the man called Sbu?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It's a very general name, but I don't know of the Sbu that the speaker is referring to.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.   Now, if Mr Mbane informed his  handlers, Mr Botha and Mr Taylor about Ms Khubeka's suspicions regarding two people that were supposed to be given safe-houses by Mr Mbane, would you know about that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.  Botha informed us about what was important regarding the operation and I cannot recall anything like that specifically.

MR SAMUEL: If any payment were made to Mr Mbane by Mr Taylor, would you know about it?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  Major, I'm going to put Mr Mbane's version to you.  You can either admit or deny the contents of it.  Mr Mbane will tell this Commission that on the day in question he was requested by Mr Radebe to pick up Ms Khubeka from the Durban station and bring her to Mr Botha together with yourself and other members at Battery Beach.  Do you agree with that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson and I accepted that terrorists or a terrorist would be present.

MR LAX: If I may interpose here, you're answering in a very general way and the question was quite specific.  Mbane says his instruction was to pick up Khubeka.  You've answered yes, that is so, we were expecting terrorists.  Did you know about Khubeka specifically or didn't you?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I knew that Khubeka was involved with these terrorists and that Mbane and the others worked with Khubeka, that this was their contact person.

MR LAX: So did you expect her to be in the vehicle that day?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was possible that she would be in the vehicle.

MR LAX: And that she would be amongst the terrorists that would be picked up?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Just before I proceed, I just want to find out one thing.  If Ms Khubeka was screaming during this ordeal, would you know about it?

MR LAX: At which stage, Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: While she was being beaten prior to her death.

MR LAX: After arriving back at the shooting range.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, at no stage did I participate in her interrogation.

MR LAX: Yes, but I think the question relates to screaming.  Did you hear any screaming?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Why wouldn't that be so?  Was she not screaming, or you just didn't hear it?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The time when I dropped off and delivered Khubeka to Taylor and Botha, she never screamed and during the time that I was there, I never heard her scream.

MR SAMUEL: Right.  Mr Mbane will say that after he had handed over Ms Khubeka to Mr Botha and yourself and the other members, he had then returned to Winkelspruit where he had met you all at the Winkelspruit shooting range.