Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ERNEST RAMATALA: We were going to be shown the house of Mr Bhila.

ADV PRIOR: Were you shown the house?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We would drive driving with the Combi, towards this area, can be the third house from this one.

ADV PRIOR: And who did that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mhieza.

ADV PRIOR: Yes continue?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Then from there, when on the way I asked him so that we can prepare ourselves, is he a terrorist?  They said no, he might have a crash course.  So ...[intervention]

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I don't follow that, you said you asked whether he was a terrorist?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Or not so that we can go to that place knowing exactly what type of person that was, is he going to fight or is he going to suspect us.  We were trying to prepare ourselves mentally and ...[indistinct] when we were approaching them.

ADV PRIOR: And you said something about a crash course, who said that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It's Spyker Mhieza said that no, he might have some crash course.

ADV PRIOR: Well did you get the impression from Mhieza that he was a terrorist or a dangerous person?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, Mhieza was putting it to us that he is not a dangerous person to us.

ADV PRIOR: Yes please continue?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Now then from there they drop us somewhere, we went to find the place.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any plan how you were to approach Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The plan was we must tell him that we are the people from UDF, we want to do some further - we are going to tell him something further concerning the UDF, further instruction from UDF.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, what was the next thing that happened?

ERNEST RAMATALA: So we managed to get inside.

ADV PRIOR: Who was all with you when you got inside?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That time it was myself, Nobela and this Shakes Malaleka.

ADV PRIOR: And when you say you got inside was that at the home of Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: At the home of Bhila.

ADV PRIOR: Did you find him there?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We found him there.

ADV PRIOR: Yes continue please?

ERNEST RAMATALA: So we talked to him.  He himself arranged for a day or two, somewhere there, that he will come and meet us somewhere at Kentucky.

ADV PRIOR: So you spoke to Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We spoke to Bhila and said "my friend, we are comrades from UDF, we are coming to you, we have been sent to discuss further things with you but we want a safe place."

ADV PRIOR: And the Kentucky was nominated?

ERNEST RAMATALA: He's the one really he said that "I think Kentucky will be a safe place for us."

ADV PRIOR: Is that the Kentucky in Lamontville?

ERNEST RAMATALA: At Lamontville

ADV PRIOR: And when was the arrangement to meet him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It can be a day or two after that first meeting.

ADV PRIOR: Alright take the Committee through the sequence as you remember it?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Then from there we go back to the Combi and report to the Combi.

ADV PRIOR: Who did you report to?

ERNEST RAMATALA: To Letsatse and Mhieza and Gadebe.

ADV PRIOR: Yes?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Now we go back to C. R. Swart.

ADV PRIOR: To what place there, was it any particular office?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well we used not to go to the security branch, we used to stay where we slept because only Letsatse and these three went to the office.

ADV PRIOR: You say you never used to go to the offices, why not?

ERNEST RAMATALA: They used to say that it's very much important if only the seniors, they are the ones that can know information and details.

ADV PRIOR: So you went to another place within C. R. Swart Square?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: And what was the next thing that happened?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Now we wait for them now again to what is the arrangement, now it was to get the car.

ADV PRIOR: So did anyone come back to you and discuss about the car?

ERNEST RAMATALA: On the way, in actual fact on the way now when we're discussing about this, now the plan was now we must get the car now.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry let's just find out what day was that?  You'd gone to Bhila, you'd made contact, you'd mentioned the Kentucky, you came back to C. R. Swart Square?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.  So on our way back to C. R. Swart we were discussing about the next method we are going to use now.

ADV PRIOR: The method to get hold of Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Again by using the car.

ADV PRIOR: So what car was discussed?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, we never discussed the description of the car.

ADV PRIOR: Oh I see.  Alright, did anything else happen on that same day that you had made contact with Bhila?  Well, what was of importance, obviously things happened but what was the next thing in connection with obtaining Bhila or fetching Bhila from Lamontville.  What was the next thing that happened?

ERNEST RAMATALA: As far as I know to get Mr Bhila it was for the sake of information that security want information from Mr Bhila.

ADV PRIOR: And then what was done, was there any plan, firm plan discussed of how you were going to get him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We did plan this thing when we go there, that we can go and talk to Mr Bhila and try to see how can we get him out of his place.

ADV PRIOR: And what plan was that, what was the plan?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The plan was, if he can come, now we went to take him out.  I mean they went to take us, with him, on the way but that one didn't work lekker.

ADV PRIOR: Yes?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.  So now Mr Bhila postponed.

ADV PRIOR: And he mentioned the Kentucky?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The Kentucky.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, now we've put that day behind us.  When was the next time you went to Lamontville now to fetch Bhila or to meet with Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Now the car was there and it was a Honda that I've been given the keys by Letsatse.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, where was this Honda obtained from, do you know?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, seen Honda at C.R. Swart.

ADV PRIOR: Was it a new vehicle, an old vehicle?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It was a new second hand.

ADV PRIOR: In good condition?

ERNEST RAMATALA: In very good condition.

ADV PRIOR: And you obtained the keys at C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And what was your instruction there and who gave you your instructions from C.R. Swart onwards?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Okay gentlemen, you go, we are going to deploy two Combis somewhere.

ADV PRIOR: Who said that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mr Lekata and Mr Letsatse.

ADV PRIOR: And what was your role, what were you to do?

ERNEST RAMATALA: My role was the driver of the car.

ADV PRIOR: Of the Honda?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Oh yes.

ADV PRIOR: And who went with you in the Honda vehicle?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The same two guys.

ADV PRIOR: When you first approached Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We wait, he was little bit late about 15 minutes late.

ADV PRIOR: Was that at the Kentucky?

ERNEST RAMATALA: At the Kentucky.

CHAIRPERSON: How many days was that after you first spoke to Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: A day or two, somewhere there.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what time of day it was when you first met him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The first time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Somewhere round about 11 in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second meeting?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The second meeting I think was 12 o'clock.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, please tell the Committee what happened on that second meeting at about 12 o'clock, you said he was slightly late?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes we were there meeting in the car so they arranged that he must sit at the back.  There was one guy in the back, I was sitting with another one in front.  So ...[intervention]

ADV PRIOR: Yes just tell us, sorry, so that we can get clarity, who was in the vehicle with you when Mr Bhila got into the vehicle?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It was Nobela and Shakes Malaleka.

ADV PRIOR: Can we just pause there?  You said something about the Shakes Malaleka being released from prison?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Just go into that in a little detail?