Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Directly on the ANC members.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to give us examples on whichyou drew this conclusion that their attacks were directed onlyto ANC members?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Will you please do that, Mr Tulu, whichwill assist us.

UNKNOWN: It happened that I was together with the membersof the SDUs.  I was with (inaudible) from Kentucky and we wantedto cross the street.  Bloem had been to the
doctor.  Someone insulted him with his mother.  We met with theother comrades and the SDUs were so disturbed and they wantedto attack and then (inaudible) and he said we know who are thepuppets, we don't have to worry.  And it happened to me when theykilled Comrade Ngesile very close to the (inaudible).  When theyleft they went direct to my home.  The previous day I was goingto the doctor for ulcer treatments but they were aware that Iwas sick.  Fortunately enough I was together with some membersof the SDU and they drove them back when they tried to kill me. And when we approached the corner we saw a police van.  And thenwe could see that they were driven to this place by the police. And I was a member of the ANC and I was the leader of the SDUs.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What was the intention behind the formationin Maokeng Township of the SDUs?

UNKNOWN: To defend the community and African NationalCongress, the termination of African National Congress against3 million gang.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That was the main intention behind theformation.

UNKNOWN: Of SDUs.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when was the SDU formed?  You are theCommander?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was it formed?

UNKNOWN: Before the end of the month November.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which year?

UNKNOWN: In 1990.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When did the 3 million gang come intoexistence?

UNKNOWN: I still recall very well.  It started existingbetween June month and July month.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which year?

UNKNOWN: The very same year, 1990.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yesterday there was evidence led by MrPetros that when the 3 million gang started, it started as a criminalgang involved in ordinary criminal activity, but it later tookon a political character.

UNKNOWN: Yes, you see that's how they used to (inaudible). He wanted us to avoid the fact that the government was part ofwhat they were doing.  What I can tell you is, Roland Petros isa member of the SDU under our command, the other commanders ofthe SDU.  He doesn't have that kind of information.  We have alot of information and they were just doing the defence for thecommunity through our (inaudible)

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am unable to get your response to myquestion.

UNKNOWN: What I am trying to say is,  when he saidthey were a criminal group, it was a tactic from the police as
well as the Council so that this was not a group to attack thepeople.  The Council and the police were behind them actuallybecause as leaders we used to hold meetings with the Council regardingthe rent issues and we were then told that these people are notpaying.  My organisation will come and evict them.  Now we knewthat what they were doing to the community, it wasn't the truth. It wasn't the right thing;  they were just disguising.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Thulu, are you in summary saying thatwhen the 3 million gang came into existence they took on a politicalcharacter and they were not initially involved in criminal activities?

UNKNOWN: That's what I am saying.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Let's go back to the death of Mr Masusu. When was the decision taken to kill Mr Masusu by your organisation?

UNKNOWN: Actually we never took the decision of killingMasuso.  What we did, we said that we will defend the communityagainst Masuso.  Irrespective of what kind of defence are we goingto take, but we will just defend the community.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was that decision made?

UNKNOWN: When I started forming the SDUs as a Commander,that was the day when we decided as a general Commander.  Duringthis time there was no formal Commander to say stand here anddo this.  But even those who joined the SDUs later they have nevercome to me, they will do exactly what they found other membersof the SDU were doing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masusu was killed in 1991 and you hadalready taken this decision in about November 1990.

UNKNOWN: That is the act to protect the community againstthe harassment.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there any reason why that order wasnot acted upon immediately, why you had to wait until the 11thFebruary 1991 to put that order into effect,  or that decision,to implement that decision.

UNKNOWN: We were not in a hurry to kill him and itwas not our intention to kill him.  We were just defending thecommunity against him.  Even to go there, it wasn't our plan tokill him, but it just happened that at the time we had to defendourselves.  That's how he died.  If we were in any hurry to killhim we could have stood up at that time and go straight to himand kill him, but it wasn't our intention.  We wanted to defendthe community, but the situation led to his death.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do I understand your evidence correctlywhen you stated just now that you actually went to Trombo(?) whichis the stronghold of the 3 million gang and you found yourselfsuddenly in the company of the 3 million gang and you had to shootyour way out to defend yourselves.  Now why did you go to Trombo,knowing that it is the stronghold of the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: Usually during the day some of them used togo to town and we thought that by going to Trombo - because thepolice were (inaudible) of the ANC (inaudible).  We thought thatby going to Trombo those left behind would run away and the policewould never have in their minds to go to Trombo to search forus and they would never think that we'd be at Trombo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Notwithstanding the fact that it was thestronghold of the 3 million gang who were being assisted by thepolice at all material times?

UNKNOWN: We realised at that time that it was the lastalternative to go to (inaudible).  Because to remain in that areawhere the police were occupying some of us wouldn't be livingtoday.  Now we went there and the incident took place and thepolice left our stronghold and they came to this area and we managedto go back to our area.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many kombis did you take Mr Tulu withyou to Trombo?  Did you use, one, two kombis?

UNKNOWN: One.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how many people were there?

UNKNOWN: It was full.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many people were inside the kombi?

UNKNOWN: Fifteen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to enlighten us why Mr Masusuwas the one who you killed instead of Mr Duvidi if you wantedto weaken the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: I have never wanted for an individual, Duvidior Masusu, I was actually defending the people that were at Trombo. Before I could meet Duvidi I met Masusu and I had to (indistinct).

JUDGE WILSON: You were defending the people at Trombo. Is that what you said?

UNKNOWN: The aim of going to Trombo was not to go anddefend the people of Trombo.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the short adjournment at this stageand resume in 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: There are two points I would like to clearup with you.  These two AZAPO people you told us about, you rememberyou told us two AZAPO people who joined the 3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Masheme Shisani(?) and Patrick (inaudible).

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know where they are now?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know where they are now.

JUDGE WILSON: The second point I would like you to tellme is why were the police looking for you on this morning, themorning when you killed this man?

UNKNOWN: Because they heard that I am the one who killedthe deceased.

JUDGE WILSON: No, before you killed the deceased, whywere they looking for you?

UNKNOWN: I gave impact to - the reason for them tolook for me, I was the leader of the SDUs.