Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

MR BERGER: You see, according to Mr Vanana Zulu's evidence at your criminal trial, he says he returned to the hostel on the 22nd June 1992.  I find it therefore difficult to believe your answer that you only saw him a month after the attack?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm saying to you I'm not dead sure as to whether it was a month.  I am just estimating, it's an estimation of how long had I not seen him after the massacre.  I'm not sticking to what I've said when I said it was a month.  I wanted to give an indication that I saw him a long time after Boipatong incident.  Yes, the date that you have mentioned is also a long time after the Boipatong incident.

MR BERGER: No it's not, it's four or five days after the incident.

JACK MBELE: Yes, five days is very long.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that Mr Vanana Zulu was present on the night of the 17th in the Stadium, that he was in charge of the attack and that he lead the attack to Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, you're not telling the truth.

MR BERGER: If there was a meeting in the hostel on the Sunday before the attack and if Themba Khoza had said at that meeting that if people come and attack you, you must fight back and kill them, if he had said that you would be aware of that, am I right?

JACK MBELE: You are right.

MR BERGER: But you say there was no meeting on the Sunday before the attack, Themba Khoza did not say that, correct?

JACK MBELE: According to my knowledge on the 18th a day after Boipatong, Themba Khoza arrived but he arrived late at that meeting.  It was late when he arrived.  The Police were already present.  Had he uttered those words I would have known, I would have told you that yes he was present and this is what he said.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about a meeting before the attack, about four days, three, four days before the attack?

JACK MBELE: I only know a meeting of a week before.  Themba Khoza was not present at that meeting.  It was Mkhize, Dlamini and many of us.

MR BERGER: Which Dlamini was present at this meeting?

JACK MBELE: Dlamini who was selling meat at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Besides selling meat what position did he hold in the hostel?

JACK MBELE: He was not a well educated man, he couldn't hold any position.

MR BERGER: So why did you mention him?

JACK MBELE: I'm mentioning him because he was present at such a meeting, I'm mentioning those who were present, those I saw on that day.

MR BERGER: You're referring to the Mr Dlamini from KwaZulu Natal, isn't that so?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: The Mr Dlamini who came with Themba Khoza to address the meeting?

JACK MBELE: I do not know that Dlamini, I know the Dlamini that I've just mentioned.  He's just an ordinary man.  He doesn't - if you by face value, he would not even utter an English word, he would not stand next to Themba Khoza and address a meeting.  If ever there was a discussion to take place between him and Themba Khoza it would be greetings.  He was just a useless man.

MR BERGER: He also wouldn't be in the same company as Mr Mkhize at a particular meeting am I right?

JACK MBELE: They would be seen together, they would be seen together.

MR BERGER: When Themba Khoza arrived at the hostel on the 18th did he ask the residents of kwaMadala whether they were responsible for the attack?

JACK MBELE: Yes he asked whether we were responsible for this attack.

MR BERGER: And what did you tell him?

JACK MBELE: We said we knew nothing of this attack.

MR BERGER: Why did you tell him that?

JACK MBELE: We were aware that he might take us to the police.  We were aware that he might tell the police that we have agreed that we took part and besides, the police were present asking that kind of a question in the presence of the police, it was obvious that any answer was going to be heard.

MR BERGER: You knew that the instruction was to kill all the residents of Boipatong, am I right?

JACK MBELE: Not all the residents of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Which residents of Boipatong were to be spared?

JACK MBELE: We were looking for the self defence units.

MR BERGER: How did it happen then that the vast majority of people who were killed were either women or elderly people or very young children or even babies?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, in a war situation where people are fighting and when you fight people who have done something wrong in your life, you know it's a war.  Now these who were caught in the crossfire, that is how things cropped up.  Yes I feel very sorry for what happened, for the children that died.  You see, when it comes to women it's clear that they were supporting the youth, I saw it with my eyes, I witnessed it.  Those women took part in stoning that person and it was daylight.

MR BERGER: You're talking about an incident in Sharpeville?

JACK MBELE: I'm referring to an incident in Serela, Boipatong when Bongani Mbata was killed. I was there.

MR BERGER: Why do you mention this incident for the first time, Mr Mbele?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, Bongani's incident is not connected to Boipatong Massacre but it happened in Boipatong.  Now your questions are related only to the Boipatong Massacre and your questions, Sir, led me to mentioning this issue.  I was actually supporting the question that you have asked about women and I was saying to you I saw women taking part in throwing stones and I just told myself, well these women are unreliable, look at what the comrades are doing and they supported.

MR BERGER: So all the women of Boipatong were targets of the attack?

JACK MBELE: I would not say all were targets.  My aim was to go for the comrades but because we've met women and upon seeing them it came to my mind as to what they did and it was also my aim not to say well, this is a woman.

MR BERGER: Which women did you see that made you think this?

JACK MBELE: Many.  Many women.  These people drove us from a Checkers Tavern and we were in a big group until we were escorted by the police, until we passed by the shops.  There were still women and that was at that point where we were thrown with stones and they accosted Bongani.  There were many of the women there.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, perhaps you would listen to my question.  When you went into Boipatong on the night of the attack, do I understand you correctly that you intended to kill as many of the men and the women that you could find?

JACK MBELE: I am now responding for myself.  I'm saying I witnessed an incident. I witnessed an incident with my own eyes and that incident motivated me, I said to myself God forgive me if I meet a woman I am going to shoot that woman because they support.

MR BERGER: So you answer to my question is yes?

JACK MBELE: Yes.  Woman, a comrade, anybody above my age I was going to shoot them.

MR BERGER: Any resident of Boipatong who you came across, whether a man or a woman, of your age or above you were going to kill?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I was going to kill anyone that I come across.  A comrade, a man, a woman.  I'm here to tell the truth, I don't want to say no I was not going to shoot a woman.  At that given moment, I was going to do it.

MR BERGER: Old women and old men as well, over the age of 50, 60, 70?

JACK MBELE: Those are my grannies and my grandfathers.  No, I would not even dare touch them.  I was referring to much stronger women.  I'm referring to these women who were in their middle thirties, up to 38, those were very strong women.  They could even run faster.

MR BERGER: So men and women older than that were not fair targets as far as you were concerned?

JACK MBELE: Repeat your question, Sir, I didn't catch it?

MR BERGER: As far as you were concerned men and women over the age of 38 were not fair targets?

JACK MBELE: They were a fair target.

MR BERGER: Do you understand my question?

JACK MBELE: Yes.