Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

JUDGE WILSON: Yes and you have not put down one of them in your application.  You application says the order was given by the ANC Klipplaat Executive and you do not mention in your application any member, any person as representing the SACP or Cosatu.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: These people who took this decision were also
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members of the Communist Party Executive.  They simultaneously held different posts.  This is why I have listed those people because they had posts within the ANC and the SACP simultaneously.

MR BLOEM: Mr Chairman, can I just draw attention to and I think a member of the Committee read from paragraph 11(A) of the typed application, where the answer is,
"Yes, the order was given by the ANC Klipplaat Executive".
I think that is what the member read from. I want to go further and say that we also need to look at paragraph 10 of the 
application which basically says "see annexure".  And if we go to the annexure, the first paragraph will clarify the position.  It reads: 
"The charge of attempted murder arises out of the acts committed on the 14th of February 1991 on the instruction and command, and with the full knowledge and support of the ANC, Cosatu and the South African Communist Party, the tripartite alliance leadership."
So I am drawing attention to this to say that in his application he already said that it was a tripartite alliance leadership which took the decision.

JUDGE WILSON: We have not got a copy of Annexure A as part of the written application that was submitted.  It is merely annexed onto the typewritten copy.

MR BLOEM: I must apologise.  I was made to understand that what I and my friend here have, will be made available to you.  I must apologise.

JUDGE WILSON: We have the typewritten ...(intervention)

MR BLOEM: No, no, no, I am talking about Annexure A to the typewritten copy.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, annexed to the typewritten.
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MR BLOEM: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: It was not part of the original handwritten one submitted.

MR BLOEM: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Which was prepared when?

MR BLOEM: I beg your pardon?

JUDGE WILSON: When was it prepared?

MR BLOEM: This was prepared this morning when I spoke
...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, so it's not part of the original application.

MR BLOEM: I understand it is not part of the ...

JUDGE WILSON: And I was questioning him about his original application which he made on the 17th of April 1996, and there he made no mention of these other groups.

MR BLOEM: I am sorry, I am not sure whether we are talking about the same thing.   What happened this morning when I came here I understood that all you had was an application in handwriting.   I then realised that I was sitting with a typed copy.  I then made arrangements for my typed copy to be made available to yourselves.

JUDGE WILSON: And the original handwritten copy does not have an Annexure A on it, that we have.

MR BLOEM: And that is precisely why I made a copy of my typed copy together with the Annexure available to you.

JUDGE WILSON: And I asked you when was Annexure A made and you said, this morning.   When did he write out Annexure A?

MR BLOEM: On the typed copy which was made available to you this morning you will see that there is a date stamp from the maximum prison Port Elizabeth, dated the 2nd of April 1996.
Now maybe I should just explain what happened here....
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HASSAN MALL: Yes do carry on.

MR BLOEM: I do not think I can take this matter any further, Mr Chairperson.  I .....

HASSAN MALL: Yes very well.

MR BRINK: I do not know whether I can be of assistance here. The original application that is the handwritten one appears to have come in on the 16th of January 1996.  It was then sent back by the Cape Town office, presumably because it had not been signed by the Commissioner of Oaths or whatever and it was returned on the 15 May 1996.
	The application which is in typed script is dated the 2nd April 1996 and Annexure A, that is the typewritten document attached to it, was compiled at that time, as I understand it, but was never received by the Amnesty Committee in Cape Town.
I think what my friend was trying to indicate was he had this, and I never had it and you did't have it, Mr Chairman and therefore copies were made for the convenience of the Committee.  This in fact, the typed script, is an amplification of the handwritten one.	That is how I understand the situation.

MR BLOEM: That is indeed.   I could not have put it better than that.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.	Are you calling any other witnesses?

MR BLOEM: Mr Chairman, no, the applicant will be the only one who will testify in his own application.  So there will be no further ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: So we do not know whether Cosatu were in favour of killing people?   Whether the Communist Party was in favour of killing people?

MR BLOEM: There is a member of the ANC present.  We have heard the name of Mannetjie Blaau  He is here, but once again he is a member of the ANC and he is available to give evidence.
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HASSAN MALL: No, we want to know.  If the organisations' names are mentioned and as things read if one were to - it would indicate that organisations, such as the Communist Party and Cosatu... (tape ends)

MR BLOEM: I do appreciate the situation.  May I ask for a short adjournment to re-assess my position, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Whilst you are re-assessing your position you should be aware of the submission which has been made by the ANC with regards to the policy in 1991 with regard to such targets.  Whether they were considered legitimate targets or not.  Maybe you can take that into account as you reconsider your position.

MR BLOEM: Thank you very much for that.  I will.

HASSAN MALL: We will adjourn for a short while.

MR BLOEM: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
MR BLOEM	96	MR BLAAU
ON RESUMPTION

MR BLOEM: I am indebted to you for granting me the opportunity to consult with the next witness who is Mannetjie Blaau.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MR BLOEM: I wonder whether he should be sworn in.

HASSAN MALL: Will he speak in English?

MR BLOEM: I understand he prefers speaking in Xhosa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: MrBlaau can you please tell us your full names?

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: I am Siswe Mannetjie Blaau.

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: (sworn states)

MR BLOEM: Mr Blaau in 1991, is it correct to say that you were a member and you are still a member of the African National Congress?

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLOEM: What position did you hold with the ANC in 1991?

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: I was the Chairperson of the ANC.

MR BLOEM: Except for the ANC did you hold any position in any other political organisation?

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: I was only a leader of the ANC but the ANC was a leader of the alliance.

MR BLOEM: The alliance being the SACP and Cosatu?

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: The alliance was ANC, Cosatu, SACP and Sanco.

MR BLOEM: Were you a member of the SACP?

SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: As a Chairperson of the ANC the constitution said that the Chairperson has a right and he has to be a member of the alliance.

MR BLOEM: Now there was evidence here earlier today by Mr Johnson, the applicant in this matter, that there was a mass meeting that was held on the 12 February 1991 to the effect that
Mrs Hanabe should be eliminated.   Were you present at that meeting?
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SISWE MANNETJIE BLAAU: This mass meeting, I was in that mass meeting, I was part of that meeting.

MR BLOEM: After the decision was taken another meeting stemming from ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Would it not be a little better if he gives his own evidence rather than you put the words into his mouth?