Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: And General Nico Prinsloo, thank you Chairperson.  And then next you would find the Colonels, I didn't know all of them and then you would have the Chief Commandants, you would have the General and then the Colonel ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: You spoke about a Brigadier, did you not perhaps leave out a rank, at a point you spoke about a Brigadier?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, the Brigadier.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where does he fit into it ...(inaudible) Generals, who are under them the Colonels?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Under the General you find a Colonel but later, the Brigadier was first the fighting Colonel, Chris Van den Heever then I saw that he became a Brigadier.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would he have fitting in to it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He fitted in somewhere, I think Brigadier is automatically higher than a Colonel.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay you got to the rank of Colonel, then do you find your Head Commandants or Chief Commandants ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just interrupt you there for a second.  There are several Generals and now you said the Brigadier would come after the Generals and then Colonel, were there different Colonels who acted in different regions in the country?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I left the Wen Kommando when these things were changing, that's when that came into place that the General had a Colonel underneath him and the only Brigadier in the Wen Kommando that I knew of was Brigadier Chris Van den Heever.  I suspect because he founded the special forces, that's why he was in that Division.
	You would then find the Colonel, under the Colonel you would find 4 Chief Commandants and that's depending on the regions.  There would be four regions and each region would have a Chief Commandant.  Next you would find your normal Commandant, under your normal Commandant you will find the Veld Cornet and then a Corporal and then a Deputy Corporal and then the normal members.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you left the Wen Kommando, is that when you went to the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I served in both, but then I left the Witwatersrand to the Vaal Triangle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the Ystergarde, did they have their own structure?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes the Ystergarde had their own structure because they served directly under the leadership of Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: So if an instruction was given to the Ystergarde would it have come from Eugene Terreblanche?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was evidence of a Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, do you know what his position was?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Under the leader Eugene Terreblanche you would find the Brigadier of the Ystergarde and under him you would have the Colonel, but none of us knew who the Colonel was.  There was some secrecy there from the conclusion I made, between the Brigadier there was a gap and then there was the Commandants of the Ystergarde and I was one of them.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now this Colonel of the Ystergarde, amongst yourselves did you discuss or guess who this person might be?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We often suspected that it was Cliffie Barnard because he worked so closely with the leader and he did a lot of things we did not know about.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these many things that he did, is this with regards to the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes with regards to the AWB movement.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was he also involved with head office?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He worked in the head office, yes.  He never wore a uniform so we did not know.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Just for clarity you have your Brigadier, Colonel, Commandant and then the members in the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson then you get the Captains underneath whom, underneath the Commandant - I'm sorry, no I'm sorry I have to rectify, you get your Major under the Commandant and then the Captain and then Lieutenant.

ADV GCABASHE: And then the members?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, the Ystergarde worked on a different principle.  After the Lieutenant you would find the COs, they were people who were interested in the Ystergarde but first had to be trained.

MS VAN DER WALT: What does the CO stand for?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It stand for Candidate Officer.

ADV GCABASHE: Alright, now what I really wanted to know was if I was Lieutenant, who do I get my orders from?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: From the Captain.

ADV GCABASHE: Right now if Barnard was a Colonel and this was unclear really, why would I listen to anything he had to say if I were say a Lieutenant or anybody below that particular person?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: In usual circumstances where we gathered and there was such a matter then you receive your instructions from the Brigadier because at that stage we did not know of a Colonel.

ADV BOSMAN: Would you have received instructions or obeyed orders from Mr Barnard.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No not in an ordinary meeting where we did security, it was concerned with the security.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would you receive your orders from then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not think that I would accept some of his orders except if the leader talked to him and he came to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have had to observe it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I had to observe it.

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise he wouldn't have thought that you would accept any instructions from him?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No not in such an open meeting.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly that you would then see Mr Barnard as a messenger of the leader?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for clarity's sake, you said that you would accept it that he would bring a message only if you observed that the leader talks to him in an open meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Let me put it this way Mr Chairperson.  Let's say there's an AWB meeting in this Town Hall and the Brigadier Leon told me I must ensure that the security outside is up to standard and then where the leader is, I protected him, and he comes to me from the leader and he tells me for example Commandant the leader say you must do this and this then I would have because we fall directly underneath the leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us say that you're at a farm and they come to tell you do this and do that, what would your position be then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It depends with what he comes with.  If he says the leader says so ... (inaudible - end of tape).

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell us, have you got any idea why there was so much secrecy around this Colonel, Barnard?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We never thought about it Mr Chairperson, we never went into the matter or looked into the matter.

ADV GCABASHE: Still with respect to Mr Le Roux, he was a Lieutenant, would it be reasonable in your opinion, would it be reasonable for him to take an order from Barnard in the circumstances in which they were at the time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If that was an order from the leader Mr Eugene Terreblanche yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but consider these circumstances where he couldn't clarify that, he was just told this, in those circumstances where you can't verify it would you think it's reasonable.  What is your opinion for that person to accept that, Nico Prinsloo said ...?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not quite understand what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: If a subordinate was told look General Nico Prinsloo says we must do this or that, would you say that it is reasonable that a subordinate will accept such an order or instruction?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well it depends on the circumstances Mr Chairman, like I understood it where there's a war situation it's different than when there's an open meeting.