Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-16

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Toni Lillian Mazwai to the stand please.
Mrs Mazwai good morning.  We're glad to see you.

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: (sworn states)

MR NTSEBEZA: When we talk of Mrs Mazwai, who are we really speaking of, just a few minutes?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: I am Toni Lillian Mazwai, the wife of Robert Bok Mazwai, who stays in 338.B in Josa, he is the late Robert Mazwai, 338 Josa Grahamstown.  I had nine children, four of them passed away, I am now remaining with five.  The last born is the one we're referring to, Siphiwo (note ...Sicelo is entered on the list of victims' names but Siphiwo is the one used by the interpreter) Hamlet Mazwai.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much Mrs Mazwai.  In those days you a request to the Truth Commission, I just want to ask you a few things that you recently put.  Today it was your day that all these things that are connected to Siphiwo
that have troubled you for so long. After it took place, these were the things that you'd actually speak and they make you happy, after getting them out.  Do we understand each other?  Recently you explained to us that Siphiwo is your son. Is that true?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: His names in full are Siphiwo Hamlet Mazwai, is that so?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes.
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MR NTSEBEZA: His sisters are the people who were staying with him in the Transkei during his disappearance, is that so?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes it is.

MR NTSEBEZA: One of them is Nomhle, is that so?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes it is.

MR NTSEBEZA: You should say, yes, so that we can listen and hear what you are saying, you mustn't just nod your head, because this will be broadcast. Is it true that Nomhle is married at Mafekeng? Zoda is also one of your daughters in the Transkei, is that so? I understand that she's now staying in East London but during the period when your son disappeared, she was in the Transkei?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes it is so.

MR NTSEBEZA: When did Siphiwo leave this country.

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: He left this country in 1980.

MR NTSEBEZA: Where did you send him as a parent?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: He went to the University of Fort Hare for studies.

MR NTSEBEZA: How did you learn that he is no longer in the University.  You sent him to Nineva and then he went to Darasis.

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Somebody visited me and those were the white police from the Special Branch in Grahamstown.  They came to fetch me and took me to the Buildings at OK in Grahamstown. Those were the offices of Special Branch in OK buildings  in Grahamstown.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did they say to you?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: I asked the one who fetched me, what is the problem, and then he said, "Let's go, you will hear what all this is about".  When I got there I was surrounded by
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everybody, it was full like this house, they questioned me 
about Siphiwo's whereabouts.  They informed me that he's not there but I confirmed and insisted that I sent my son to
the University of Fort Hare and I do not understand what they meant when they said they do not know him.  I was beginning to be concerned about what they said.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did they say to you?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: They just said to me, "We do not know where he is but we are telling you that he's not there." I insisted that I sent him there, so I don't know anything more than that.  I stayed for a period there, they were interrogating me, relieving themselves and questioning me time and again, asking me repeatedly the same things, and I didn't have an idea that the child could go anywhere else but to be at university.

MR NTSEBEZA: So it was in 1980 when this happened?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes it was in 1980.  I phoned my daughters who were in the Transkei in Umtata at the time, I asked them if they had any idea of what happened to Siphiwo and then they said to me that he said he was going to Butterworth because he was studying law at the time and that he was going to lawyers there, but he didn't come back. They said his belongings are still there with them.

MR NTSEBEZA: So it was after a year that he didn't come back.

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes, even during the holidays he didn't come back. During this year, within the year the police came back again waking me at night, I think at was just after 8 o'clock, they knocked at the door, got inside and rushed into my house. Then they asked me if I had heard anything about Siphiwo.  I insisted that I did not know anything 
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about him. They stayed in my house for a few minutes and then left the place. The following day I phoned my daughters again and I informed that I'm not happy because the police visit me periodically, so they told me that Siphiwo has crossed the borders.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did you understand by somebody crossing the border at that time?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: I knew immediately that he was in the struggle. I knew the meaning of crossing.  It a later stage I learned that he was in Lesotho.  I don't know where they learned all about this, but they informed me.  The police continued to visit me.  When they came again, each time they visited me, I would call my daughters and tell them that they should go and look for my son in Lesotho, because I suspected that it might happen if he's no longer there, he might have been murdered.  Zoda is the  one who is brave. She undertook this journey and went to Lesotho.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you remember what year he looked for her?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: I cannot remember very well, but it was a few years after he disappeared.  I think it was '81 or '82.  I'm not certain, it could have been 1983 because it was some time back.  Zoda was the one who undertook the journey but she didn't find a trace of him, but was informed that he was available there in Lesotho. I'm not sure whether he was training or what was happening, but there was confirmation that he was around there.  It was in Maseru.
   It is also said that they were prohibited on their way to Lesotho.  I don't know where she got the passport, she was together with Zwandile's younger brother, Mzwandilevena, they travelled together, he is now an Umkonto Wesizwe soldier.  They went together with his younger brother.  They EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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went to look for my child.
    We got the information that he's still alive, but she didn't see him.  So she came back and informed us that it is confirmed that he's alive, he was there but no information was given again.
 My daughter was visited by the police and asked what she was going to do when visiting Lesotho.  She informed the police that she went to look for her brother.

MR NTSEBEZA: I understand that a few years later you received a phone call from Siphiwo, is that so?

TONI LILLIAN MAZWAI: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did he say to you?