Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Bishop Storey at this stage was keeping contemporaneous notes and keeping a close eye on the whole situation.  He was in touch with various role players and he advised that he had liaised with the community and not acted on his own (indistinct) issue.  I did ask him the basis on which he kept these notes and this is what he advised me.  But let me just ask that question again.  Did you ever ask for access to the children, Mr Mokoena, and were you able to (indistinct).

MR MOKOENA: No, no let me just - I have answered this question (indistinct) but I would just like (indistinct) I also wanted to (indistinct).   Bishop Storey (indistinct) how would he even know - he does not say I left - this statement here doesn't say I travelled.  It says Aubrey Mokoena goes.  He actually sees me going to Mandela's house and you know to enquire about the abduction (indistinct) authority.

FRANK CHIKANE: May I just (indistinct).  When Bishop Storey came there he made it very clear that those were notes that he kept from the information that he was related to him by his lawyers, by community leaders, and that by the Crisis Committee and in the context in which if you want (indistinct) to that portion when you read the record you will (indistinct) that he has indicated that he has indicated that he probably got this from me or from any other person.  He never (indistinct) very, very careful in saying all the things that he said except where he personally was involved within that (indistinct).

MR MOKOENA: (Indistinct).  I understand (indistinct) very direct and quite outrageous.

MR VALLY: If I could go on.  Your paragraph 24 it talks of concerns of the community about the whereabouts of the young people when the community was drawn in to help resolve this matter.  Who brought this to your attention?
The issue of the young people being taken from the manse.  Do you recall who brought it to the attention of the Crisis Committee?

MR MOKOENA: Well I need to recollect that the Methodist Church (indistinct) at that time (indistinct) Council of Churches and so they were wanting (indistinct) but there was also communication from (indistinct).

FRANK CHIKANE: Yes, there was communication from members of the (indistinct) who were engaged in (indistinct) and which passed as members of the Crisis Committee and an indication of the expectation that we must use whatever influence we were perceived to have, even our earlier involvement with the (indistinct) to try and (indistinct).

MR VALLY: One can assume that if the people, the youngsters were taken from the Methodist manse, and the Methodist church had contacted the Crisis Committee and if people from his home town of (indistinct) had contacted the Crisis Committee it would have been early on in the saga, it would be shortly after the youth were abducted.

FRANK CHIKANE: I wouldn't say exactly when.  Obviously it was as soon as (indistinct).

MR VALLY: If I go on to your paragraph 25 and you look at page 3 of Bishop Storey's memorandum and he talks about Wednesday the 11th January and Thursday the 12th January, look at the 12th January.  Chikane reports to PJS, that is Bishop Storey, that
"... he Aubrey Mokoena, Sister Bernard, Dube and - sorry, and Sidney Mufamadi visited Mrs Mandela on Wednesday the 11th.  She had said she was protecting them and they were not abducted and were there of their own request.   Initially agreed that the committee would have access immediately but later changed her mind and told them to come back later in the day.  Chikane also reports to Bishop Storey serious concern for Verryn's life".
And there is a quote:
"Football team members are ruthless and well armed".
It goes on:
"When Crisis team returned 'this time without Chikane', later on the Wednesday ...."
We are still talking the 11th January -
"... Zinzi Mandela indicated that one of the youths had escaped.  Committee chose to ignore this remark but noted the word escaped.   When access was granted the Committee note that Gabriel Pelo and Ntsebezo had fresh wounds to their bodies.  Katiza did not.  All three youths maintained they were there of their own free will and they were subjected to sexual advances by Verryn.  One of them, however, Katiza, finding himself alone with the Committee broke down under questioning and admitted they were being held against their will and they were going to tell the story of the sexual advances.  He said 'I am going to die anyway so I may as well tell the truth'".
Now the question is firstly your date says the 13th January 1989 and Bishop Storey says there were two visits made by the committee on the 11th January 1989.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson I (indistinct) and in fact I wouldn't even (indistinct) find out when actually (indistinct) I would not commit myself and a number of reasons.  We mentioned one which was material (indistinct) subjective so it is a content in that (indistinct) rather than (indistinct) and it would have been a collective of the events that happened which accumulated in that particular way so I wouldn't really debate (indistinct) the number of times.   We went there a number of times.  I have been there (indistinct) times.  It was a very big (indistinct) so - but I would be very careful, Chairperson, to - I am beginning to get worried like Aubrey Mokoena about (indistinct) taken that (indistinct) may have been (indistinct) because then it will be taking (indistinct) and I am a bit worried (indistinct).

MR VALLY: Nevertheless at this stage Zinzi Mandela - and if you look at your, I believe it is annexure C, page 2.
"Interestingly Zinzi later told us that (indistinct) had escaped.  She made no mention of Stompie.  This reinforced our suspicions about Stompie.  We also kept mum about Stompie at that stage".
The question is this, one of the youths breaks down and tells you they had been assaulted - that is Katiza Cebekhulu.  The other two youths have got fresh wounds on their body which you note.  Zinzi Mandela advises you that Kenny had escaped and the fact that she doesn't mention Stompie concerns you in that you were worried about his whereabouts.  Surely there was some degree of urgency by this stage.  Surely you could have taken more drastic action.  Why didn't you?