Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MR FORTUIN: I see, Mr Maduna, my problem at the moment is you are saying that you were informed that there were gangs attacking the PAC, and the only way you came to this knowledge, was because people who is with us no more, or people that we can't trace, gave you this information.

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So today you can tell anything to the Amnesty Committee, because the people that we can speak to to verify your version of the events, is not with us any more.

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, the point is today you can come and tell the Amnesty Committee any version that you think would grant you an amnesty because the people that can verify your version of the events, is with us no more, or they are untraceable.  How do you explain that, Sir?

MANDLA MADUNA: It is a tragedy to me too that those people are not around any more.

MR FORTUIN: What you were told by the PAC and by your Commander as you state, that there was conflict between the PAC or the gangsters were attacking the PAC, nowhere, nowhere is there evidence of such incidents in front of this Amnesty Committee, either through newspaper reports or through other Commissions that investigated the conflict, or either through the police to be able to say that there was conflict of that nature.

MANDLA MADUNA: I don't know about that.

MR FORTUIN: The only ...[intervention]

MANDLA MADUNA: But what I am saying is all of this happened as I said.  That members of the PAC died, I can't help it.  I do not know where these people who were investigating, where they investigated, because PAC members - I do not know whether the investigations were thorough as not to establish that PAC members were being attacked by gangsters.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware that there was a person living in that house that you attacked, by the name of Depoutch Elese and that he is a prominent member of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the first name again?  How do you spell that?

MR FORTUIN: Depoutch.  Elese, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there was a person by that name?

MANDLA MADUNA: I heard about that at court.

MR FORTUIN: It is my instructions Mr Maduna, that the purpose of the attack that evening, was to eliminate Mr Elese, Mr Depoutch Elese, that particular evening.

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you repeat please.

MR FORTUIN: I say, it is my instructions Mr Maduna, that that particular, the purpose of the attack was to eliminate an ANC leader by the name of Depoutch Elese?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, you got wrong information.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, would I have an opportunity again to ask some questions after consultation with my client?  Would I have another opportunity just to make sure that all the questions that they want to put to the witness, will be asked, now or later?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to find out from your clients.  You see, we've lost a lot of time this morning, but I am prepared to stand down for a short while for you to make sure that your client - is that what you want?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, I thought maybe if my colleague next to me, could maybe ask his questions which he had, which he wished to put to the witness, we could proceed without then having to stand down, and during lunch hour I can speak to my clients to make sure that their version has been put to the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman, there would be some few questions.  Thank you Sir.
	Mr Maduna, when you received instructions you said today, you were instructed by a Regional Commander.   For what was the person who instructed you, a Regional Commander?  For what structure was he a Regional Commander, the person who instructed you?

MANDLA MADUNA: He was a Regional Commander of the Task Force.

MR MAPOMA: So you were instructed in your capacity as a member of the Task Force also?  Is that what you are saying?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: So when you committed the attack, you were not just attacking as an ordinary member of the PAC, is that what you say?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR MAPOMA: When you conducted the operation of attacking the people you attacked, you were acting not as an ordinary member of the PAC, but a member of the Task Force, is that so?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: I would like to refer you to page 1 of the bundle of documents, on paragraph 7(b) of your application for amnesty.  There you are asked a question, you are requested there to state the capacity in which you served the organisation, or body or ...[indistinct] movement, and you said you were an ordinary member.  How do you explain this disparity?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was because Leklapa Mpahlele is a Zulu speaker, no he speaks English and I spoke in Xhosa.  	It could be then he put it in this fashion.  I think there is nothing wrong as I am explaining now that I was a member of the Task Force.  Please Sir, you must remember that in prison you are afforded a little time, and you cannot do things thoroughly.

CHAIRPERSON: This application form on page 1, is that your handwriting?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose writing is that?

MANDLA MADUNA: It is Leklapa Mpahlele's.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  Now, to your knowledge, you cannot tell this Committee of any incident where a PAC member was attacked by the gangsters, do I understand you correctly?

MANDLA MADUNA: Repeat the question.

MR MAPOMA: You have no personal knowledge of any incident where the PAC member was attacked by gangsters, do you confirm that?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, I cannot say there is anybody whose is a PAC member who was ever attacked by members of the gangsters, but there are members of the PAC who were attacked by the gangsters.  And here at Poqo, you do not generally call each other by the real name, you would use false names.  We generally call each other M'Africa and Poqo.

MR MAPOMA: And you have no knowledge that any of the people who were killed there, was a member of the gangsters, do you confirm that?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

MR MAPOMA: You as Mandla Maduna, cannot say to this Committee today that any of the people who died at the attack, was a member of the gangsters?  Do you confirm that?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat again.

CHAIRPERSON: It is very, very simple please follow me.  Do you know that the people whom you killed, were not gangsters?  Do you now know that?

MR MAPOMA: I got to hear in court that they were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the question.  The question is did you know that they were gangsters, that is the question?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  Now, who was the Commander of that particular operation?  I understand you were a number of people, you were three and who was the Commander of that Unit which went there to conduct the operation?

MANDLA MADUNA: Tinage.

MR MAPOMA: What political organisation did he belong to?

MANDLA MADUNA: He was a member of the Task Force.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that Tinage was a member of the ANC?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I don't know about that.

MR MAPOMA: Now, before you went for the operation, the operation in question, did you conduct any surveillance?  At the place where you were going to attack, before you went to that place, did you conduct a surveillance of that place to see who was there?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.  You see, I did not know the place that was supposed to be attacked.  I was only told that time and I had to follow.