Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Lieutenant Liebenberg, as Commander.  Warrant Officer Nel, who was a senior Warrant Officer to me, myself, a Sergeant J.P. van Zyl, a Sergeant Kotze, if my memory doesn't fail me and during the period of the Terrorist Detection Unit, lower ranks did change at times, were transferred and others came in.  But the Commander stayed the same and Warrant Officer Nel and myself stayed the same.

MR KRUSE: Let me put it to you that the most brutal person besides you, was Constable Goosen, then you seem to leave him out at every moment, why is that Sir?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I have not left him out Sir, I said it changed at times.  At the beginning of the Anti-terrorist Unit was the beginning, they changed.   Goosen, was on the Unit at the time I think of your detention.

MR KRUSE: I think the two of you are probably the closest in the whole Unit at the time of my arrest.  You operated jointly, but you didn't mention his name even in your submission.  I find it very strange that you didn't mention his name?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I gave the original names of the Unit.  As you say close to Goosen as a person, it is personal.  I am not very close to him.  What I do know about Goosen is that he was very conversant in the Xhosa language.

MR KRUSE: And very brutal too.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede that Sir.

MR KRUSE: You spoke about a Tracker Team, who would that Tracker Team be?  The same members you  mentioned earlier?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that, what team was that?

MR KRUSE: Tracker Team.

CHAIRPERSON: Tracker?

MR KRUSE: He speaks about a Tracker Team in his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I hope I am giving the right information here.  We didn't have, or it wouldn't be called a Tracker Team, I know that one of the Intelligence Units had a Surveillance Teams.
	These Surveillance Teams, who they consisted of exactly, I couldn't say, but I was aware of them and on very rare occasions, you would meet them, because I think this is the Unit that did not operate from Culemborg, for the specific reason, or at least from 112 Loop Street, where the Headquarters was, as that not very many security members knew who they actually were.

MR KRUSE: There was also a group of Black policemen working together with you.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: Who are those members and what were their roles?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am just trying to think of the names now.  There was a Constable Siali.

MR KRUSE: His first name, sorry?  Patrick Siali?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Patrick, Patrick Siali and I nearly had his name now.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At one stage there were three that I can distinctly remember Mr Chairman.  But one took a transfer off the Terrorist Unit after a very short time of being there and he was normally the gentleman that visit the detainees and so forth, but there is another member, I am trying to think of his name now, besides Patrick Siali.	It was a tall chap.

MR KRUSE: Okay, what was their role, I want to understand that?

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you be able to put the name to him, if you knew the name?

MR KRUSE: I don't remember the name.  We were never introduced to them, they were just around there.

CHAIRPERSON: I just thought maybe you had heard the name and whether you could refresh his memory if you knew the name.

MR KRUSE: I don't recall the name myself.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It may come back to me within ...

MR KRUSE: Can you just tell me what their role was at Culemborg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Their role was to go to the different police stations, to enquire about things needed, clothes needed and so forth, that was their main task.

MR KRUSE: They had no police functions besides that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Well, that was, as I say that was their priority role.

MR KRUSE: Did they also act as informers in our communities?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede that that was also part of their task Sir.

MR KRUSE: Was that gentleman Matunzi, the tall one, Sergeant Matunzi?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is the name I am thinking of, yes.

MR KRUSE: Now, there was a team, called the A-Team which came down to crack the Western Cape Units, do you recall that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was of the impression that they referred to the Anti-terrorist Unit in Cape Town, as the A-Team.

MR KRUSE: Do you recall there was a group of members down from Pretoria at the time of our arrest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Are you referring specifically to the - teams came down from Pretoria to interview or interrogate detained terrorists, as far as photo albums and that, there was a coming and going of Pretoria personnel for quite a while.
	If you could give it to me more specifically.

MR KRUSE: One of those members, I think Mr Yengeni mentioned yesterday, was David, he is a policeman in the Security Branch in the Internal Security still at the moment, in Pretoria?  He headed one of the teams?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, now David's team were the then, what I referred to yesterday as the rehabilitated terrorists or askaris.

MR KRUSE: So they were called the A-Team?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If they were called the A-Team, I concede they were called the A-Team.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard evidence that rehabilitated MK people were also called askaris.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard of that?

MR KRUSE: I have heard of that.  Now, the A-Team, the askaris, what was their role in the Western Cape, besides looking at photo albums?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At the detention, when they were in Cape Town, the detained freedom fighters were shown to these askaris, seeing that the askaris had also had MK training and were in different parts of the country and the world as such, to see if they could make an identification.
	One of their other roles were to move around in the Black townships to see if they could perhaps see a terrorist who was still at large.
	As far as my information goes, these Units were requisitioned and controlled locally at Cape Town, by Lieutenant Liebenberg, they were also billeted at different placed.  Where I as an ordinary member of the Security Branch, did not have contact with them, normally.

MR KRUSE: What do you mean normally, when did you have contact with them?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: When information was glean that a specific terrorist could be operating in a certain area, and these people were sent in and there was a possibility of them making a contact, then the Terrorist Detection Unit used to become involved in the operation.
	These were also men that would infiltrate drinking halls, shebeens and try as I say, to glean information about terrorists.

MR KRUSE: Now, they stayed at the base Vlakplaas, was that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

MR KRUSE: They were based in Vlakplaas in Pretoria?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The majority of them were, to my knowledge, at Vlakplaas.  I also heard that a branch had been established somewhere in the Eastern Cape.

MR KRUSE: Were they not under the command of Bellingham here in Cape Town?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On the occasions that I had seen them, Bellingham was, I took Bellingham to be their Field Commander.

MR KRUSE: There has been, I think, various denials about the Vlakplaas connection in Cape Town in various other cases I think.  Were they involved in any other cases in Cape Town as far as you know?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not aware specifically in which cases they were involved, but I know on occasions the Unit did come down and operate in Cape Town.

MR KRUSE: Do you know if they were involved in the Guguletu event?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If you are speaking about the Guguletu...

MR KRUSE: Seven, yes?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: What is referred to as the Guguletu 7, I was not involved with the Security Branch, so with the result is, what I know of that, is what I have also read in the newspaper.