Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR SOLLER: Would that be news to you - for example in South Africa because you gentlemen have lived in South Africa for as long as I have, to know that prisoners have had their penis's and their testicles subjected to electrical current?
S.A. POLICE: I've read of that, yes.

MR SOLLER: But you say that it did ...[intervention]
S.A. POLICE: ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: What do you say ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: Director Hesslinga, is that news to you?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Not?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Well, I guess I would be quite shocked if you were to admit it.  He would also say that you brutally hit him to such an extent - and again he repeats that both of you did it, that he became unconscious from time to time.
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Well with respect ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Mr Soller, I think you must now ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: I am Mr Deputy Chairperson.
 With respect Director, whilst you might believe fully in the integrity of many Regional Court Magistrates, we know as fact - having practised for many years and my case for 25 odd years, that many, many accused have appeared before Regional Court Magistrates not showing signs of injury but when micro-analysed by a pathologist - such as the late Doctor ...[inaudible], it was found that these people were injured by the most subtle means executed by the police force, do you deny that?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Could you complete now please?

MR SOLLER: As it pleases you Mr Deputy Chair.
 Mr Mbatha will say that the particular reference to the assaults was this - is that whenever he tried to implicate Mrs Mandela - in relating back to the late Doctor Asvat, whenever he did so, it was then that the torture arose and neither of you two gentlemen on my right would allow him to make one adverse comment about the killing of Doctor Asvat in relation to the participation by Mrs Mandela, what do you have to say?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Last question, thank you.

MR SOLLER: My very last question to both of you is this - there was evidence given by Mr Richardson - who was the previous witness, that around about May of 1995, he spoke to one of you whilst he was at the Leeuwkop Prison - I think it was to ...[inaudible], do you recall that?
S.A. POLICE: ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: Now, can you explain how come a few days after that - about six or seven days, my learned friend Doctor Seriti - acting on behalf of Mrs Mandela, was able to convey to Mrs Mandela - and I quote from a letter from my learned friend to the Commission of Police
"Furthermore, it has come to our client's knowledge that Mr Zakhele Mbatha - who is presently serving sentence at Pretoria Central Prison and who was kept at Medium C Block, was severely assaulted by the police who were ignoring him to sign a statement which implicates our client in several criminal offences and he was also promised substantial cash amounts, amnesty and a new identity document if he signs the statement"
Just to end off that question, I want to put to you that's it's no coincidence that Mrs Mandela received this information five or seven days after you had been to see Mr Richardson, can you comment on that?
S.A. POLICE: Sorry, I don't - is it five days after we saw Richardson?

MR SOLLER: Five or seven days.
S.A. POLICE: After we saw Richardson, you got a letter from?

MR SOLLER: I didn't get a letter a letter from anybody, Mrs Mandela's attorneys wrote to your Commissioner - I think your colleague on your right has that letter because he seems to be ...
S.A. POLICE: Yes, I've seen this letter.

MR SOLLER: Well, have a look at the last paragraph on page 1.
S.A. POLICE: Yes?

MR SOLLER: How would you imagine that Mrs Mandela would be able to ascertain that my client - a death row prisoner, he wasn't going to be hanged because there were no longer any executions, was being severely assaulted by the police who were forcing him to sign statements et al, how would you imagine that Mrs Mandela would have come to that information?
S.A. POLICE: No idea.

MR SOLLER: You've no idea?
S.A. POLICE: No idea.

MR SOLLER: You wouldn't think it's coincidental that you'd been to the prison a little while beforehand?
S.A. POLICE: I have no idea.

MR SOLLER: Did you discuss this matter with your Commissioner?
S.A. POLICE: He discussed with me - the letter was given to us.

MR SOLLER: Did you investigate it?
S.A. POLICE: Investigate which part of it?

MR SOLLER: The allegation, it's a serious allegation.

MR CILLIERS: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: I really can't allow you to go on any further, thank you.

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, Michael Miller appearing for Tulani Dlamini.
 I want to address my questions to you Director Hesslinga, I asked some of these questions to Senior Superintendent Moodley the other day but he was unable to provide proper answers because he said you were the investigating officer and not him.
 You say that the reason why didn't investigate the allegations implicating Mrs Mandela, were because of contradictory statements which you received from Mr Dlamini?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: But what the two statements had in common - that is the statements made to the police, what they had in common was that he implicated Mrs Mandela.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Incidentally, one thing that interests me a lot, is the fact that this affidavit was taken on the 17th of February at which time Mr Dlamini had already been arrested, is that correct?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Is it usual practice to take sworn affidavits from arrested persons?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: So in other words, the intention was at that stage, that Mr Dlamini would be a witness against Mrs Mandela?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Now, turning to the robbery, Mr Dlamini was convicted of a count of robbery of R145-00 from Doctor Asvat's surgery, did you investigate whether any money was missing from the surgery?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)
S.A. POLICE: Can I help here Mr Chairman please?  Looking through the dockets yesterday or the day before yesterday, we found a page of a diary where it came up to the amount of R135-00 and we've got that somewhere that we can produce to the Commission which will assist us in getting to how we got to that figure.  It seems to be a page of a diary - I don't know where the diary came from, but it came up to the  figure with little amount put in - like R2-00 or R5-00 or whatever, making up this amount.

DR BORAINE: Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: May I ask you Senior Superintendent, who compiled or wrote this diary?
S.A. POLICE: I don't know who compiled it - what I'm saying is, we found that amongst the documents of that docket and it's available.  If somebody can identify the writing - maybe the Asvat family will be able to identify that writing or the page of the diary it came from.