Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the grandfather was shot because he shot, that's not how I understood the evidence.  I think the spread was used to try and explain where the two groups were and what really divided which stronghold from the other.  It was like a boundary.  When the ANC came from the other side of the spread and the IFP came from the other side of the spread, that was made - I think he referred to that to show the boundary that really divided the two strongholds.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: That's correct.

MS THABETE: I understand that but if my memory serves me correctly I thought you said when your grandfather was shot he had crossed that Umleni, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I'll correct you from the bench Ms Thabete, that's not what he said.  That fact has not yet been clearly established as to where exactly.  What he did say was that as soon as the grandfather was shot the whole group dispersed but as to where the grandfather was shot in relation to the line that he described, that evidence has not been pertinently been established.

MS THABETE: I'm indebted to you Madame Chair.  Mr Ndlangamandla, how far were you, all of you from the boundary?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Let me repeat this, I'll estimate that it was 20 metres.

MS THABETE: I thought that 20 metres was where the other party was standing?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes, separation, the 20 metres was the separation between us.

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you what your evidence was before we broke for lunch?  Your evidence was you were 10 to 15 metres away from the other group.  What has not yet been established is how far were you from the stream which divided you from the other group.  Now what is being I think sought by Ms Thabete to establish is how far you were in relation to the boundary which was the stream which divided you from the other group?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Let me try and clarify this, when I'm talking about a stream I'm not talking about a known stream but I'm talking about a boundary, something that separates the two groups, I'm not talking about a real stream as in running water.  I'm not talking about a furrow, I'm talking about a distance between the two groups when I'm saying the stream.  I don't if I'm clear there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we are really confused.  What's in between, what's exactly in between because we thought you're referring to a stream.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'm referring to a boundary which divided the two groups, not a stream as in water running and I'm talking about just a border, something which separated us but there was nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean a road or what?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'm referring to a distance in actual fact.

CHAIRPERSON: An open space which there's nothing in?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There are no houses?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No there are no houses, there's just an open space and nothing in there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, if means we didn't understand you in that way, thanks.

MS THABETE: Mr Ndlangamandla, I just want you to clarify for the last time, you saying there was a boundary separating the IFP and the ANC and are you saying that boundary was in a sort of a road, empty road like - is that correct, open space?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Okay an open space not a road but just an open space with nothing built in it.

MS THABETE: Anyway my question was how far were you from that open space?

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to what?  In relation to the grandfather?  I thought your question was how far was he from the grandfather.

MS THABETE: First my question was how far were all of - maybe I should rephrase my question and say when your grandfather was short how far were you from him?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: As we've already mentioned that we were in a line.

MS THABETE: No I'm not talking about all of you I'm talking about you and your grandfather, was he next to you, were there two people in between you when you were in a line?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: There were people between me and my grandfather, I think he was number three from the beginning if you can start counting one, two, three.  He was number three on the line.

UNKNOWN: Mr Ndlangamandla, have you not told us already that you were about 20 metres from your grandfather, is that not the evidence you gave us a bit earlier?  That's my recollection of it.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I didn't say so.

UNKNOWN: Okay, I'm not being strong about it, I'm just maybe just misunderstanding some other aspects of your evidence.  Did you see your grandfather get shot?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I was with him as I've mentioned he was number three on the line.

UNKNOWN: Well how far were you from him?  Just demonstrate in this room how far you were from him?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I was number one and he was number three.

UNKNOWN: So you were about three paces away from him?

CHAIRPERSON: Three to five paces?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: As I've already mentioned, he was number one and I was number three.

MS THABETE: And then, okay I understand that.  How far was your line away from the open space?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I said before that it was approximately 20 metres.  I can say from 10 metres upwards.

MS THABETE: Okay, if you turn to page 2 of the bundle?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that Ms Thabete so that we don't lose momentum on this, you are saying when you say a boundary you are referring to an open space with no buildings on it?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How far would you say was any kind of structure from where you and the other organisations were?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'm not clear, if you can please clarify this to me?

CHAIRPERSON: You've stated that the fighting took place in a place which consisted of a boundary which was merely just an open space.  Now what I want to establish is was the whole place just an open space not necessarily the boundary where you were, was it also an open space?  Where your group was, your other side?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: There was no structures.

CHAIRPERSON: Where your group was, do you understand my question?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where the ANC was, was there any kind of building, was it also an open space?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: An open space.

CHAIRPERSON: It was just an open space.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Thabete.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Thank you Madame Chair, I'm indebted to you.  I was still saying on page 2 of the bundle which is number 9(iv) of your application, second paragraph you say
"They attacked my grandfather and they shot him.  Me, I was behind the house of his and watching what they were doing, all these things and I committed myself to revenge and I revenged."
In the light of what you said can you explain that contradiction?

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you be specific, you've read a sentence that consists of a number of scenarios and that impinges on a variety of factors to the evidence that he has given.  You will recall that he has spoken about, he has described the boundary and described the scene where the fighting took place and he also went on to describe the paces, about 20 paces between the two groups and also went on to explain the distance from where the father was shot from where he was.  So won't you just take him exactly to what you want him to respond to?  I think it would make his responses more appropriate and will assist us greatly?  You want probably to read sentence by sentence and let him respond to those sentences.