Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: If it was a Sunday, wouldn't one expect that there would still be people, if it was not yet dark, hanging around the beach front area, if it was a Sunday?  Because normally the Sundays the beaches get quite full.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall Chairperson, it was very quiet at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now as I understand your evidence you were expecting to arrest terrorists and these terrorists were people who were trained outside, people who had come from Zambia, is that right?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Heavily armed men, or dangerous men, I should rather say.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So I would have thought that you would have sat down beforehand and planned the operation in the event of there being a shoot-out, what to do and each person had what responsibility, did that happen?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that, Chairperson.  I assume that there must have been such a discussion, as to what everybody would do there.

MR WILLS: With respect, you don't seem to remember much, Mr du Preez.  I would have thought that you would have remembered a plan on how this operation of arrest was going to take place.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, 17/18 years I was - for the 17/18 years I was in the Security Branch I launched thousands of operations where persons were arrested in vehicles and it is something that one does impromptu and on the scene you will observe and at the scene we will say which person will open which door.  I was involved in thousands of such matters and that is why I do not have a specific recollection of the incident.

MR WILLS: Were you involved in thousands against women?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I'm suggesting that because a woman was involved in this instance that it would spark your memory, because it was a different, something different to the usual.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can recall that I grabbed her Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You see, wouldn't it also be probable, or wouldn't you have insured that if you were going to be arresting armed people, that you had a back-up vehicle in place in case a shoot-out occurred?

CHAIRPERSON: Or in case you arrested 5 other people, or 4 other people?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we had a kombi which many people could be loaded into.  The kombi was specifically taken so that it would not draw any attention.

MR WILLS: But on your evidence there were four people, four or five, sorry, I can't remember, in the kombi and everyone was involved in the operation to get out and arrest.  Is that right?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So is that enough people to deal with armed terrorists who might resist arrest?  You see, I'll just be plain on this point, I've had, been involved in various criminal trials and inquests where people like this had been arrested and it seems to me that frequently the position is that when it's known that dangerous trained guerrillas are going to be arrested, there is always a back-up, and someone to come in just in case something untoward occurs.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the operation was executed as I have testified here.  We were four or we were five persons and the expectation was that there would be one or two terrorists.  If there were four we could have handled that as well.

MR LAX: Mr du Preez, just building on Mr Wills' point and it's been worrying me as well, particularly in the light of Mr Wasserman's testimony in the Quarry Road matter, you guys weren't armed with assault rifles and in the Quarry Road matter he was saying they would never have gone in there if the  intention had been to arrest, as your intention was in this instance, with a vehicle full of people.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it would not have been a vehicle full.  C1 members could also assist if there was an arrest to be executed.

MR LAX: The question is, how many C1 members were there present?  How were they organised?  What was your back-up plan?  What fire power did they have, if this is a case where you are arresting potentially dangerous people?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I never doubted the fact that we were enough people to handle the situation.

MR WILLS: Well, I just put it to you that the way you've described the arrest appears to me to be more fitting for the arrest of one person, i.e. the planned arrest of Nthombi Khubeka and not other ANC persons as has been testified.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, did you indicate that Ms Khubeka struggled at all during the process of her arrest?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she was grabbed, she was lifted off her feet and taken to the kombi and this was accompanied by the necessary violence to keep her under control.

MR WILLS: My question was, did she struggle?  Did she try and run away?  Did she try and resist arrest in any way?  You were holding her, you would know that.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall.  She was taken violently to the kombi.

MR WILLS: What do you mean by violently?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Against her will.  She was picked up.

CHAIRPERSON: ...recall her thrashing her arms about or trying to kick you or anything like that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.  She also did not shout.

MR WILLS: So you'd be surprised if she got injured in any way in the process of her arrest and in her transportation to the Winkelspruit shooting range?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't know of any injuries that she may have had, I don't believe that she had any injuries.

MR WILLS: And you don't believe she would have been injured in the process of your arresting her and you carrying her to the car?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is improbable.

MR WILLS: So if it was later proved that she did in fact have broken ribs, you would say that that must have occurred after you handed her over, in your words, to Capt Botha?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, just describe the interior of the panel van.  Was it a Toyota Hi Ace, a kombi type panel van or a Venture type panel van?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota panel van, such as a Post Office bus.  It was a bus which was very empty, completely empty at the back with a wooden floor covered in carpeting.

MR WILLS: It's basically like a Toyota minibus but without the windows and seats?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: A quite common vehicle.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That would be the same type of vehicle.

MR WILLS: Like a taxi, minibus taxi?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, except that it wouldn't have windows on the sides.

MR WILLS: And Ms Khubeka was placed  on the floor of this?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you restrained her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: How did you restrain her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She was told to lie still and we told her that we were the police.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Did you not have to physically restrain her in any way?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, after she was in the vehicle, she didn't put up any fight, she accepted that she had been arrested or that she was under our custody.

MR WILLS: Yes and who else, if you can recall, came with you in the kombi?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall Chairperson, but it must have been van der Westhuizen, Boshoff and Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: You say Boshoff, is that Basson or Boshoff?