Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR VISSER: I forgot to complete this, let's just do it now Mr Botha, with regards to what you have learned from Ndwandwe, we can refer to Exhibit A, page 35.  Mr Chairman, I have already when we addressed Exhibit A, asked you to write in Pumeso on all those incidents.  What I neglected to do was to refer you to page 36 and 37.  At page 36 where I suggested to you to use the words kwaMashu unit in items 1, 2 and 3, that would obviously include Pumeso, so on the evidence of this witness.
	That was a unit under his control.  So it is Pumeso/kwaMashu unit.  Nothing turns on the use of the word kwaMashu, we could call it anything, I am just trying to make it easier, not to have to refer to the names every time.
	Then Mr Chairman, at 37 the first, second, third and fourth are all Pumeso.  That is according to the information about which the evidence has now been placed before you.  All four those incidents at page 37.
	Are the incidents that you are referring to when you say that in the previous months there were lots of acts of violence?  Mr Chairman, my Attorney has just reminded me, I forgot to point this out, at page 36 there is a duplication.
	That duplication is the Phoenix railway station, where the three next victims are involved, were killed.  Those are a duplication Mr Chairman.  In fact you will see even the MR number is exactly the same, so if you would just strike out the second 18 November 1988, referring to Phoenix station Mr Chairman.
	Obviously Mr Pumeso was not physically involved in that, because as you will know now, as you will hear in the evidence of Mr Botha, he was at that stage, he had been eliminated.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Visser, were we not told that the incidents that you refer to as a duplication, were the false flag incidents?  I think I asked you that question at the time, I am not sure, I may be mistaken?

MR VISSER: The false flag incident is the one Mr Chairman, I believe on the Montclair, that is the 4th of November.  No, is it the 18th?

CHAIRPERSON: This was the murder of the three activists?

MR VISSER: I am told I am wrong, and Mr Malan is correct Mr Chairman, yes.

MR MALAN: While we are at this, may I also ask you in terms of the, reading the handwritten diary or informal diary, are the entries duplicated there too, or is it only in the retyping that it is duplicated?

MR VISSER: No, this would be a retyping from the handwritten manuscript, but we will check immediately.

MR MALAN: While you are checking, will you please check whether the handwriting was the same person who entered it, or two different people.

MR VISSER: The witness does have the handwritten manuscript in front of him.  The first thing you will look for Mr Botha, is the date of the 18th of November 1988, which refers to the Phoenix station and also refers to three black men who were between the ages of 20 and 25 and who died there.  Did you find that?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I have.

MR VISSER: Please look if you can find another date in that manuscript, dated 18 November 1988, except for the one that we have already referred to.
	There is another entry for the same date.  Is the handwriting for the two the same?

MR BOTHA: No, it is two different handwritings.  The first is that of Colonel Taylor and the second one I do not know.

MR VISSER: I wonder if you do not want to submit it so that the Committee can have a look at it themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: While we are on that, you recognise Colonel Taylor's handwriting do you?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I know the handwriting Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that the first few years of that diary is all in the same handwriting?

MR BOTHA: I would say most of the entries were made by Colonel Taylor.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter, there are many different handwritings in the diary?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes a whole page written up by the same person, sometimes just single entries?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears that although it may have started as a private diary by Colonel Taylor, later many people had access to it to make entries in it?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, you say that this was Taylor's private, informal diary.

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did everyone have access to this diary in order to make entries?

MR BOTHA: It is a book he kept with him, because he was an Investigating Officer, it was easy for him to refer back to things and look at it.  It later became a record for us as well, so we would make entries in that when we were dealing with a case, it wasn't an official record.
	We didn't adhere to the prescriptions of the police.

MR MALAN: The other entries on the same page are all in the same handwriting, I am sure you would have noticed that?

MR BOTHA: Yes, all the others.

MR MALAN: And you would find that same handwriting in other places in the diary, is it possible to determine whose handwriting it is?  Could you ask your colleagues?

MR BOTHA: Yes, it will be possible, I think it was the Investigating Officer, and I think there is a case book number there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: The first reference to Phoenix, that is Colonel Taylor's handwriting?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If one looks at the second portion of that entry, it would appear that for the first entry the top one, somebody else with completely different handwriting has written "solved" in the last column.
	For the fourth one, that is the second Phoenix entry, someone with different handwriting from the person who made the original entry, has written "withdrawn, accused killed" and that has now been typed out as "niketelua", which does not appear in the diary?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the answer to the last query is a very easy one and that is that my Attorney's secretary must obviously be blamed for that, and we should be blamed for that for not having checked every single word.  But we simply didn't have the time Mr Chairman.  I gave instructions just before we came down, for this to be typed out and it was typed on that Friday before we came over the weekend, Mr Chairman.  That is the explanation for that.
	In any case, Mr Chairman, my Attorney suggests that perhaps you would want a copy of that handwritten manuscript for your own use.  We are willing to make it available.  I must tell you that we have a problem here in Durban because apparently the TRC refuses to make photocopies for us and what we will have to do is, we will have to go out and find some place where we could have the photocopies made Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think as I understand it, the TRC refusing to make photocopies for you.  I think the position is that the photocopier available here, is one where you have to do a single page at a time, and it will probably take a few days to photocopy.  It is not one of those where you could insert and rapidly copy.
	I think if a copy is to be made, we should try to find a machine that can do it.

MR VISSER: I am pleased to hear your explanation Mr Chairman, because I was a bit surprised when I heard that.
	Mr Botha, you have just referred to the fact that Pumeso during the interrogation that day and the next morning, sorry you did say the next morning?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Told you that two members of a unit under his command, but maybe I shouldn't lead you, just repeat it please.  What would these two members under him have done?

MR BOTHA: Firstly, the previous evening's explosion, that is the 3rd of November, they were responsible for that.  That is at Rosborough railway station.
	During the course of the day, we also received further information that that evening they would commit another act of terror.

MR VISSER: That is on the 4th of November?