Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Unfortunately when we did attempt to open the trunk on the scene but it was locked so it could not open.
We then assumed that there must be firearms or ammunition in the trunk.  We only managed to open it at K Section and we only found a zinc slab inside.  Our intention was to remove firearms not money.  If we had an intention of robbing cash we would not have gone to the last pay point.  Secondly, we knew very well that the people who were paying out the pensions were inside the shop and after we had shot and everybody had been killed it would not have been difficult to go inside the shop and remove that cash but we only removed the firearms and we left the scene.

ADV SANDI: But that does not answer the question.  What would have been your attitude if you found money in the trunk?  I know you didn't find any money in the trunk, what would you have done with the money if you found it?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: If we could have opened it on the scene and discovered money inside we would have left it there because that was not our intention.  Our objective was to acquire those firearms to assist our community.

ADV SANDI: These people you have mentioned, Gululeko and Bheki, where are they now?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: The police could not trace Gululeko.  We heard that he had skipped the country.  I do not know about Bheki because he has never been arrested ever since.

ADV SANDI: You've not heard anything of Bheki, you've made no contact with the two whatsoever?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We never had contact but we would contact his younger brother.  On our last contact he informed us that Gululeko has not returned up to this date.

ADV SANDI: How long after this incident were you arrested?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: After a week, on the 29th March.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR NGUBANE: I've no re-examination thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mdluli, you're excused.

MR NGUBANE: That closes the case for the applicant.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, any submissions?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  My only submission is that the evidence by the applicant is enough either to advance or negate his case.  I cannot improvise on what he has said.  That is all I wish to submit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any submissions?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, my short route will be that as it is from the evidence it is quite inconceivable that the KwaZulu Police could have been supporters of the ANC during that time.  In fact the applicant has not tendered a
convincing or satisfactory explanation as to how this irony occurred that he could be a member of KwaZulu Police and yet be a supporter of the ANC at that time and it is quite strange indeed as well for them to turn to rob weapons at a pay point and in fact rob a container which is supposed to be a container of money yet all the time the intention is to rob weapons and unfortunately some people died there and it is my submission that there has not been any explanation which makes the killing of those persons a politically motivated act.
	Without dwelling much, Chairperson, I would say the application ought to be refused.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Is there anything else that you wanted to add Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the Panel will take time to consider this matter and will formulate a decision as soon as the circumstances permit for that to be done whereupon the decision will be made available to the parties with an interest in this matter.  Under the circumstances the decision of the Panel is reserved.
	Mr Ngubane, we thank you for your assistance in this matter.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, we've got one more matter left on the roll.  What is the arrangement with Mr Panday in regard to that?

MR MAPOMA: He is present, Chairperson and also Mr Maseko is present.  The applicant and the victims, they're all here.

CHAIRPERSON: They're present?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Perhaps we should take a short luncheon adjournment and try and start with this matter as soon as circumstances permit.  We will take the luncheon adjournment at this stage but we will only adjourn for thirty minutes whereafter we will deal with the matter of Mkhize.  So we will reconvene here in 30 minutes time.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS