Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR BOTHA: You state in paragraph 14, it appears to me that you came together on the relevant day and you were, all three of you were frustrated at the elections, which you regarded as giving over power to the ANC/SACP alliance.   At what time did you meet?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It was during the morning hours when Mr Wheeler and Mr Pyper were at my home, they also asked for tools with which they wanted to fix his vehicle, and I told them that I didn't have any equipment.   However, I did supply them with parts.   We spoke for a time, but I cannot remember the exact time.

MR BOTHA: Can you tell me, you see the picture that they are sketching is that a great war would emanate from these events, and you have said in paragraph 10 that they were gathering emergency supplies and ammunition, can you explain to me that if there was a war on the way and that all the necessary emergency supplies and ammunition was ready, why would you go for a visit in Randfontein?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: The reason why I paid a visit to my parents was that if anything would occur, Randfontein was approximately 15 to 16 kilometres away from my home, so I could be back at my home within a question of minutes, and also at my parents' home provision was made for supplies, so that if anything had happened, I would have been able to survive there.

MR BOTHA: Mr De Bruin, if an order had come through to you from your authorities, your officers, what would you have done, what would the order would have been, what would you have expected?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It's difficult to say, the order could have been that the people should meet and do something, or the order could have been that the people should meet just to hear that they could continue with their normal lives, that nothing was going to happen, it's difficult to say what ...(tape ends) ...it was going to be.

MR BOTHA: To do something like what?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: What we expected was that people would get together and that there would an insurrection and revolt, that is what we prepared ourselves for.

MR BOTHA: You were used to army discipline.  Were there any specific instructions for any specific events?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, there were no specific instructions given to us. It could have been conveyed to the officers, because they would have had to take the lead, but not to us ordinary members.

MR BOTHA: Would you, on the instructions of your senior officers, give your shotgun to your friend and, armed with your grandfather's .22, go and shoot any black man that you meet along the way, would you do that?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, because I felt that such a person wasn't a threat to me, but he was a threat for my political convictions.

MR BOTHA: I have no further questions. I thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Botha.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Koning.

MR DE KONING: Thank you, Chair.

MR DE KONING: Mr De Bruin, do I understand your evidence correctly that you were actually, from a very young age, you were very interested in politics, especially organised politics?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And your political involvement was limited to right wing politics?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And more specifically the far right wing?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: If I look at the evidence which was led at the bail applications of the two applicants, I see on typed page 2, Chairperson I think it's page 12 of the bundle, Mr D Rie testified, I think he was from the Security Department of the Westonaria Gold Mine, he testified that he saw the accused, and at the bottom of the page he was asked, perhaps we should go from rule 19
"  Mr De Rie, on the 27th of April 1994, did you see the two accused on that day?
I saw accused No 1 earlier that night, at about seven
o'clock or twenty to eight in the Hills Haven area, he 
was driving in his vehicle."
He further says:-
" He had a passenger in the vehicle with him, I can't say that it was accused No 2.
		   Where did you see the two accused?"
That was the next question:-
"The vehicle was parked in front of a house of an AWB member in Hills Haven.
		Who is this person, what rank did he hold in the AWB? 
Mr De Bruin, he's one of the officers in the AWB."
Now the statement I'd like to make to you is that it appears to me that in the community in which you lived it was a generally known fact that you were involved in the right wing politics, especially AWB circles, and that you were openly so involved, you made so secret of that fact, am I right?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: I had no, there was no need to make a secret of my involvement in the AWB, but people could have made their own inferences as to whether I was a member or an officer, I didn't make it clear to anybody what exactly my position was in the AWB.

MR DE KONING: Now I don't want to dispute the matter with you, all I want to ascertain is this, you were clearly aware of the fact that your political convictions were known to your community?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It could have been like that.

MR DE KONING: In your affidavit which you handed in today, you also say that you concede that it's possible that the two applicants could have believe that you were an officer, is that not so?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It's possible.

MR DE KONING: Am I right in saying that the AWB leader, and perhaps one should use the plural, leaders, shortly before the elections, often, especially on television, made pronouncements and statements which indicated that they were in favour of violence?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

MR DE KONING: At these meetings, which fortunately I, or unfortunately I never attended, but as I understand from media reports, at these meetings it was widely propagated that there should be resistance to what was happening, namely the transformation from one constitutional dispensation to another?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That is correct.

MR DE KONING: And that violence was an acceptable mechanism, as far as the AWB was concerned, to try and halt that transfer of power?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

MR DE KONING: And that is how it came about that the people who attended these meetings were encouraged and incited to mobilise and to arm themselves?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: The liberation struggle which you mentioned wasn't only a struggle to try and defend, it was widely propagated that offensive action should also be taken?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And you, as an active supporter of the AWB, obviously identified yourself with these judgments and statements made?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And you would agree with me today that, going by what Mr Wheeler told the committee today, that he regarded you as a leader in the AWB, a leader of some sorts, I say leader in the sense that you weren't an ordinary member, that you held some office in the AWB, did you never convince him of the contrary?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No.

MR DE KONING: And the same goes for Mr Pyper, is that not so?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: And, due to your active involvement in right wing politics, you would agree with me that they could, therefore, also have seen you as a very definite leader of whatever extent?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And you would also then agree with me that, referring to the visit to you on the morning of the 27th, when the bomb explosions were referred to and you told them, as you say in paragraph 13, you said
"I told the two applicants that the resistance of the boers had started and that there were more explosions to follow."
That could surely have created the impression with them that you had certain inside knowledge?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.