Human Rights Violation Hearings — Nelspruit — 1996-09-02

MR MAHAULE: Yes, actually we were working and we were making sure that there should be peace.  Although people were saying bad things about us, saying that we are informers but in most cases in the morning when we report for duties we were given some guns to patrol to make sure whether is there peace throughout the whole place and at the evening those guns were actually taken back.  Those guns were taken back.  And we were not given cars to go home and when you get to the bus people would say anything they would like to say in that bus when we went back home.  In other words you should not get confused.  Look at us.  Look at us.

CHAIRPERSON: I said earlier in the morning that we have a way of conducting ourselves.  We should give chance to each and every one that he should say exactly what happened.  Even if he say something which you don't like or he say something which you like but give him enough chance to say what he wants to say.  You will also get your chance.  Now is the time for Mr Mahaule to tell us his story and I am not going to allow people should to get murmuring here because he has something which they don't like.  I think we understand one another here.
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MS MKHIZE: Thank you.   As you have already said you always had problems, more especially when you reported for duty.  Perhaps you can tell us whether there was a time actually where you had some confrontation with the young boys while you were at work.

MR MAHAULE: No, actually I did not have any confrontation with anyone.  As I have said I said this during my deliberation that Captain Ntiwan, he is actually the person who shot the son of Mr Paulus Mabuza but because people hated me and they turned around and said, they said it is myself who shot that one.  I am happy because the person who actually shot the boy is still alive.  I did not have problems with those young boys.

MS MKHIZE: As you have said to us here the shooting of that boy, perhaps you can explain to us what happened, how was he shot.  I thank you.

MR MAHAULE: To explain this matter I was not in that place of sin, I was at Schoemansdal.  The person who actually shot the boy, he was at Driekoppies.  It is about seven kilometres away from the place where I was.  I was not in the place there where this boy was shot.  I was only told later that he was shot.  At 12 o'clock I was told that - by the station commander that the son of Mr Mabuza has already been shot and on my arrival there he was already removed to the hospital.

MS MKHIZE: You have already said in your statement that - and people said they said you are similar to a certain sergeant.  You look like Sergeant Maskeko. Can you explain to us what wrong has Maskeko done that these people could sort of....

MR MAHAULE: Actually Maskeko, his duty was to look around
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people who were escaping the country.  He was a very reliable officer.   Unfortunately I look like Maskeko.  And when we got this - the people who were actually arrested and those who were arrested said why did you burn the house of this police officer.   They said no we were actually targeting Maskeko.  It is a mistake that we had to burn Mr Mahaule's house.

MS MKHIZE: But before I give the Chairperson here because I believe that you were together with other police officers, how did you feel that you were actually said to be alike like ...

MR MAHAULE: I don't know the reason why they said I look alike to a particular person.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mahaule, I think I just want to clear I think two issues in your mind.  Will you accept that in the past that we come from that if you were a member of the police living in a particular community where that community was at the receiving end of police brutality, that any policeman would be seen as being part of the system?

MR MAHAULE: Can you repeat the question.

YASMINE SOOKA: He is saying that don't you think that during in the past people were actually against the police, there was some confrontation between the police and the people.

MR MAHAULE: At that time if you were a police people would say that you are a part of the system.  Just because they knew that you were a police officer.  And people were actually being troubled by the police.  Our problem here during that time as members of the police we were actually facing two main things to do.  Our own people they were saying that we were informers of the boers and the whites were saying that we sort of sympathise with our black
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people. On the day when they burnt my home they said - one boer said to me there is a snake underneath the grass.  There is a snake underneath the grass.  Why your wife actually could not sleep on top of the bed, she slept on the floor.  So I was only given R24 because they said there is a snake underneath the grass.

YASMINE SOOKA: So you actually got it from both sides really.

MR MAHAULE: Yes, it is like that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Mr Mahaule, I would like to thank you for having come forward and spoken to us in this way.   I just also have a question which is not specifically related to your statement and that is you draw a distinction between the police and the security police.  Could you explain to us what in the early eighties that relationship was like.

MR MAHAULE: I thank you.  I cannot actually interpret the minds of the public but during that time we know very well that there was a special branch division and there were soldiers who were wearing camouflage clothes and there were soldiers actually the SADF and I am not so sure whether the public did actually make some differentiation between these three groups.  I am not so sure whether they did manage to differentiate.

MR LEWIN: Did you yourself as a policeman find any need to differentiate between the police and the security?

MR MAHAULE: Repeat your question, sir.

MR LEWIN: Did you as a policeman find that there was any difference between the police and the security police?

MR MAHAULE: I did not see any need to differentiate because when there was a toyi-toyi we were all grouped into whether you are in uniform special branch and soldiers camouflage
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and SANDF, we were all grouped together.  If there is something to go and curb it, we were all going together.

MR LEWIN: So as a policeman you in fact were part of the army or the army was part of the police.

MR MAHAULE: Yes, it is like that.

MR LEWIN: May I ask how long you stayed in the police, Mr Mahaule.  Are you still in the police?  I get the impression from your story of 1986 that you had actually left the police.  Is that the case?

MR MAHAULE: I want to explain here because I am happy.  Today I see my bishop here, Desmond Tutu.  I joined the police force on the 16th March 1967.  I worked until 1985 when they burnt my house and I realised they have burnt everything that I had.  I had to retire.  I stayed one and a half year at home.  At that time we had the national states, Kangwane national states and I happened to know the Chief Minister of Kangwane and at that time I was starving a lot and then I approached him I said well I am starving can't I be assisted someone so that I can sort of rebuild my home and Mabuza actually sympathised with me.  He said I should rather be re-employed in order that I should get some remuneration of some kind.  Then I started to work again.  1989.  As of now I am at home, I am sick.  I haven't retired, I am just sick.  I am just sick at the moment.  I am still waiting.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.