Special Hearings — Political Party Hearings — 1996-08-20

MR LEON: Chairperson, if I could just respond in the case of the National Security Management System, our information about the National Security Management System was mostly gleaned from Parliamentary questions which we put during the period of the early 1980's and as a result of these questions, I became interested in the whole subject and in the end wrote an academic thesis on that.
 I have already made that thesis available to the Investigative arm of your Commission and I am more than prepared to assist them in continuing that line of investigation to the best of my ability.
 The problem is that at the time that I was trying to get that information, we all know what the regime of secrecy was like at that time, and consequently many of the conclusions which I drew, as a result of that investigation, were very tentative and were based on a balance of probabilities.
 I think from the Commission's point of view, it would be very useful not only to get the minutes, and I hope you do get the minutes and I hope that the minutes are in existence and intelligible, but also to get hold of some of the key actors in those structures.
 I imagine that some of those actors will in due course be applying for amnesty in which case one would then be able to follow that line of investigation further.  For example I do know that some time in the course of 1988 Major Craig Williamson, whom I understand is keen to apply for amnesty, made a presentation on this National Security Management System and made them fairly regularly and doubtless he would be able to shed light on all the ramifications that the organisation was up to.
 I think the key point that I would want to try to get across, is that when you have a situation where you control the access to information, you control the parameters in which people can operate and cannot operate, when you give State officials a carte blanche indemnification for all the actions that they take, then it is a very short step from there to getting involved in extra legal repression and in activities which constitute a gross violation of human rights.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Colin Eglin?

MR EGLIN: Responding to Alex and to thank him for leading questions - questions put to us, on the question of our reference to vigilantes and also on the question of the question of harassment and intimidation, we were faced with a practical dilemma.
 Perhaps because of our own fault we had three days in which to prepare this documentation and we thought it would be wrong just to put in isolated concepts without having sufficient evidence or sufficient documentation to put into this particular document, and we will be very happy both through the party records and through the records of individuals, to look into these things and to come up with specific instances.
 We could have mentioned interception of Mrs Suzman's mail and the fact that it led to evidence that the State was conducting wide spread surveillance of an intelligence kind of ordinary citizen's activities.
 The interception of my mail of an American and Buthelezi, about a visit to Africa, which in the end was leaked to a newspaper by Boss, in order to embarrass and to break up that whole situation.
 And then as I think Capetonians will know of the activities of an organisation code named Scorpio which conducted a reign of terror in the Cape Peninsula.   A number of people were affected and I was the last one in line, because it ended up with them having pot shots at my house.  But I would mention these, there is a significant degree of documentation available on these particular issues and we will also think of and find some more in our records and we will willingly cooperate with your Research Directorate and we would hope quite frankly, where there are still question marks about these, we believe it will be very helpful if your Commission takes it further and eliminates the question marks  so we happen to know the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Tony Leon, you have a face that looks like it wants to say some more, your facial expression made me think you wanted to speak?

MR LEON: I feel Chairperson, we have taken up a lot of the Commission's time and we ...

CHAIRPERSON: Bongani Finca?

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you, one small request.  When the Democratic Party gives us more information, I hope that they will deal with the matter on page 8, the false information which influenced them to take certain positions and the matter of the cross-border raids and also the question of the DP's own philosophy when it came to security.  There is an impression that has been created in this country that the DP or the PFP at the time, would oppose the government on many other things, but not when it came to the security of the State.
 I hope that perhaps that could be addressed.

MR LEON: Certainly Mr Chairperson, and I think it might also be useful to create a full picture, that we give you all the relevant statements at the time which were in favour and opposed and I think the Commission on this particular aspect, must draw its own conclusion and also the context of the times in which it took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: One of the areas that we are researching and will hopefully have a hearing on is the question of prisons and the human rights' violations that took place within prisons.
 Mrs Suzman of course in her presentation talked about it and we have seen it and heard many statements read out by witnesses at our Human Rights' Violations Committee hearings, the role that she played in supporting people who were - political prisoners particularly in prisons, I hope that we could call upon her to provide us with whatever information she may have, because that era at the time that we are covering is very much the time that you covered.

MRS SUZMAN: Chairperson, they were mainly letters that were sent to me while I was the sole MP, by relatives complaining about conditions under which they were being held, and I did my best to visit as many prisons as possible and particularly as far as political prisoners were concerned.  So I made an annual visit to Pretoria Central where most of the prisoners were held, political prisoners, and whenever I was allowed and this wasn't an annual event at all, to Robben Island and to Pollsmoor and other prisons.
 And there is no doubt in my mind that while conditions were extremely bad in the early 1960's particularly the middle 1960's, by the latter years they have much improved and there was a new attitude towards the rehabilitation of prisoners, rather than using the prison system itself as further punitive measures over and above the  deprivation of liberty. 
 But I mean I have got stacked away in the archives of the library of Wits, a lot of letters from prisoners and prisoners' families.  If you want I can try to fish them out.  But I mean it is that sort of evidence, which I don't know if it is much good to you.  I think you would have learnt as much from publication of the prisons case for instance the Rand Daily Mail and other prisons.  But if you want me to, I will go into the archives and see what I can find among the letters.  It might be of use to you.
 A lot of them were also anonymous.  I might say I made a practise of answering every letter.  I even gone into the habit of answering anonymous letters.

ADV DE JAGER: Tony Leon, we are all aware that the constitution could be amended again.  It may be a two thirds majority required or even more.
 We are also aware that a too rigid constitution could also cause problems, but would you be in favour of something like the 34 principles, not all of them perhaps, being carried forward and enshrined in a future constitution?