Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

CHAIRPERSON: Could we please have silence, Mr Faas we thank you that after all this pain and suffering you could have - God could have blessed you and you could have held onto your faith.  
There are not many words of comfort which we can provide or much we can do but we feel we - we would like to express our sympathy towards you and we are very grateful that threw God's mercy you have been touched in such a way that you can say you are prepared to forgive people.
 Thank you very much.

WENDY ORR: Captain Clayton thank you very much for being here this afternoon.  This really is quite a momentous occasion to have someone from what was then the South African Police and is now the South African Police Service to come and give corroborative evidence.  It really does mean a great deal.  Would you like to take the oath or the affirmation?

CAPT CLAYTON: The oath.

WENDY ORR: Will you stand to take that?
PETER JOHN CLAYTON    Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much, Denzil Potgieter is going to lead your evidence.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Wendy, Captain would you like to give your testimony in English or in Afrikaans?

CAPT CLAYTON: Afrikaans please.

ADV POTGIETER: You are a captain in the South African Police Service?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes, that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Where are you stationed?

CAPT CLAYTON: In Paarl East.

ADV POTGIETER: You were also in the service of the Police Force in 1985, more specifically the 28th of August 1985.  Where were you stationed?

CAPT CLAYTON: In Paarl East.

ADV POTGIETER: What was your rank back them?

CAPT CLAYTON: I was a Warrant Officer.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you familiar with the incident of Adri Faas - the one about which Mr Faas just gave evidence?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes

ADV POTGIETER: We know that this shooting incident took place on the 28th of August 1985.  Were you on duty that day?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes

ADV POTGIETER: Can you please tell us what you saw, that happened that day?

CAPT CLAYTON: I think it was approximately 7 o'clock when the deceased walked passed me - I speak under correction, I'm not sure whether there was a young lady with him but it was at approximately 8 o'clock that evening I was standing outside the gate with some of our members and I myself was in charge of these members - because we were coloured members.  
 And I cannot remember whether it was a white or a yellow Ford Cortina that came into the entrance of the police station.  And I could see that the passenger Lieutenant Colonel Oosthuizen was - Lieutenant  Colonel and I don't know who the passenger was.  And he took out a shotgun which did not look anything like the police issue and his words were
You people take to long, I am going to shoot a hot-not tonight.  
Thereafter they left and I think approximately 3 minutes later - 3 minutes at the most the distance - from the distance where the police station was and where the diseased was laying it was approximately 300 meters and I heard them asking Wessels to come there and I went out of curiosity to see what was happening there.  And Sergeant   Ross was my vehicle driver and when we got to the scene somebody shouted cause
Just fuck off from here.
And they said we should leave and we just made a U-turn at Steenkamp's Vleis which was approximately 10 meters from here.  I said he must please stop, I just want to see something and we then went back to the office and I said to them I am withdrawing from service now and I told my people they could go home as well.

ADV POTGIETER: There was an inquest  in connection with the shooting incident, did you know anything about that?

CAPT CLAYTON: Definitely not.

ADV POTGIETER: Were you ever approached by the police?

CAPT CLAYTON: Not at all.

ADV POTGIETER: For a statement or anything?

CAPT CLAYTON: Not at all.

ADV POTGIETER: This Lieutenant Colonel Oosthuizen, where was he stationed at the time?

CAPT CLAYTON: He was at the Detective Branch in Paarl.

ADV POTGIETER: According to what he said - the actions which he made it appears as though he is a trigger-happy person because he said that tonight he was shooting somebody.

CAPT CLAYTON: Absolutely

ADV POTGIETER: And he was - he - he took out a - a private firearm - a personal firearm.  It was not a police issue, it was - it was a personal firearm.

CAPT CLAYTON: I cannot say with certainty that it was his personal weapon but what I can say is that it was not a police issue.

ADV POTGIETER: As it an ordinary situation that - was it common practice that somebody could come on duty with a - with a shotgun?

CAPT CLAYTON: No as far as I know it was never allowed.

ADV POTGIETER: And another aspect is that it was also common cause in the inquest that his firearm was with - loaded with SSG bullets which are - and how do SSG bullets compare to the bullets used by police?

CAPT CLAYTON: The smaller one - the bird shot is very tiny.  The SSG is the biggest one that can cause death.  Bird shot does not cause death unless you are - you shoot the person at close range.  SSG can kill you from a distance because it is the biggest type of bullet.

ADV POTGIETER: And is this SSG the most dangerous type of bullet that can be used in a shotgun?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes

ADV POTGIETER: And can a person then assume that this kind of information would be - or this - a policeman who was at the rank of a Lieutenant would know about the dangers of a 
SSG bullet?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes you are trained accordingly.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anything else you would like to add to your evidence just before I conclude?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes, I was - the scene of the crime disturbed me that's why I asked this gentlemen to make a U-turn and stop because the stone that was there I could not believe that a person could have had or thrown such a stone.  Because it was probably the size of a dove's egg and I speak under correction of whether it in his hand or approximately 5 centimeters from his left hand.

ADV POTGIETER: So that seamed strange to you the little scene that you saw there with the stone?

CAPT CLAYTON: Yes

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Captain for your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo

MS GOBODO: Thank you Chairperson, thank you Captain.  I just have two questions, I can - I'll ask my questions in English, you're welcome to respond in Afrikaans.
 I'd just  like you to describe to us the nature of what was commonly known as riots especially on Klein Drakenstein Street where Mr Faas' son was killed.  What kind of - what form did they take, I just want to have an understanding of the dangerousness of the situation for the police at the time.  Could you describe this to us please?

CAPT CLAYTON: I would say that because the place was like a - it was - every year there were specific places and with specific reference to Klein Drakenstein it - they were named in police language, it was in front of the bioscope and near Maco, which is a fast food place where the deceased was.  These were focal points where there  were normally problems.

MS GOBODO: Yes, I'd like to know what happened exactly, what - what did people do when they engaged in riots in those area that were focal points?

CAPT CLAYTON: What usually happened there was that tires would burnt, stones would be packed in the street, vehicles would be stoned but usually we would cut off the vehicles and redirect them along different routs.  So that there were - police vehicles would patrol Klein Drakenstein Road and others would go around the back.  For example where there was one - where the water tank was and also at the side of Spesbona, we would patrol there.  
 And also blockade the streets on Van Riebeeck Road and Klein Drakenstein Road and also near the swimming-pool, just sort of prevent  further problems.   That was basically what I - myself and my unit did.