Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Ngono please, just hold it for a second.  I say I'm now becoming cross about these cell phones. Those who are interested to be in this hearing, must please ensure that it never triggers off and if people feel that they've got to receive some messages whilst here, they should do so outside, wait outside until they get such messages.  It's very distracting because we are listening to very sensitive evidence here.

MR VISSER: From my side, Chairperson, your comments are highly appreciated.  I understand your anxiety and I understand the depth of your feelings about your loved ones, I'm not asking you about that.  I would like to know why you think that these people have lied to this Committee.  They say they took those people, including Mbulelo, from Lesotho.  Those people became informers, they're not even sure whether Mbulelo did become an informer, they took them back to Lesotho and they would have heard from them again.  You say they're lying.  Your evidence is that you saw him in February and you never heard from him again.  Nobody is saying you're lying.  Why do you say they are lying?  That's what I want to know from you.

MS NGONO: The reason why I'm saying that they are lying is because these dates that they mentioned, Mbulelo was not in Lesotho at that time.  They say that they took him in December and Mbulelo was not in Lesotho in December, Mbulelo came back to Lesotho in February and the Mafikeng incident happened and I heard that he was arrested in March and I never saw him again, that is why I'm saying that they are lying.

MR VISSER: How do you know that he wasn't in Lesotho in December?

MS NGONO: I used to visit where he was staying, even when he was not there, I would go there and visit Mpilo.

MR VISSER: You see nobody has ever suggested, on the part of the applicants, that Mbulelo was not arrested in February or March 1988, they never said so, in fact they conceded that its possible, so we're not arguing about that, we're not saying that you're wrong that he was arrested in February or March.  What they are saying is that they took him, they abducted him in December.  You say he wasn't there in December.  I ask you why you say so, you say because you regularly visited and he wasn't there, you didn't find him, is that the picture?

MS NGONO: Yes, I know the last time I saw him was in September and even when he was not there, I would visit that place where he was staying and I would find Mpilo and Mpilo would have told me if anything happened to Mbulelo.

MR VISSER: You see that's why I asked you this question before.  Would you be told if Mr Mbulelo had been arrested by any police force and you said he was very secretive, he wouldn't tell you, remember that?

MR LAX: The question was, would Mbulelo have told you, not would Mpilo have told you.

MR VISSER: I know that, I know that Chairperson, with respect, I'm not being unfair to this witness.  you remember that I asked you before whether Mbulelo would have told you if he'd been arrested by any police force, do you remember that I asked you that?

MS NGONO: Yes, I remember.

MR VISSER: Do you remember that you said that he wouldn't have told you because he was very secretive.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, that is not how I remember the evidence.  The answer was:  "He never told me he was ever arrested", except this incident that she testified about.  The secretiveness of Mbulelo comes to his other activities as a member of MK.

MR VISSER: I'm not going to argue about that Chairperson.  I believe that I'm correct, but I'm going to let it ride.  The point is you now say that if something had happened to him, Mpilo would have told you, is that what you're saying now?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

MR VISSER: Well, alright.  What did he tell you where was Mbulelo in September 1987?

MS NGONO: Mpilo would not tell me about their operation, but he would tell me only if Mbulelo was taken by the police.

MR VISSER: Well you know, with all due respect to you, why wouldn't he tell you that your brother Mbulelo is not in Lesotho, he's in the Transkei or wherever, why wouldn't he tell you that?

MS NGONO: Because I was not a member of the MK.

MR VISSER: No, that's not good enough, with respect.  why would he tell you that he was arrested, but tell you nothing else about your brother?

MS NGONO: Because if he was arrested, that would mean that the family would be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I don't know where this is going to.  If we have to accept that the police operated on a need to know basis and we would question a witness and say a witness was not a member of any organisation, they would tell about what happens to them, what they do on a daily basis, then I'm going to find it difficult even to believe the applications that some of the things they did, they wouldn't know.  I would find it very difficult.

MR VISSER: Point taken, Chairperson.  I will leave that.  Point taken.  Were you ever told by anyone of other times when Mbulelo was arrested by any police force anywhere, apart from the time that Lindelwa's sister told you of his arrest while he was with Lindelwa?  Were you ever told of any other arrest?

MR LAX: Sorry, the name is Lindelwa.

MS NGONO: Can you please repeat your question?

MR VISSER: How many times were you told of arrests of Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: In March?

MR VISSER: Any time, your whole life, how many times was he arrested that you know of?

MS NGONO: I do not know how many times Mbulelo was arrested.  What I know, he just told me that there was this narrow escape, but I don't know when he was arrested.

MR VISSER: After he left in 1980, can you tell us how many times you know of that he was arrested?

MS NGONO: I do not know.

MR VISSER: Alright.  You see, you say in paragraph 8 of your statement at page 36 that the Ngono family is strongly opposed to the granting of amnesty to the applicants because
"We understand that they are lying."
Do you read it there?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: What do you mean by that?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, the applicants are applying in terms of the criteria laid out in an Act and it is our responsibility as legal representatives to argue whether full disclosure has been made in terms of the requirements of the Act.  I don't know how this witness is going to be able to answer questions as to whether the requirements of the Act have been satisfied.  I think basically that is what lay persons state that they want the truth and if their loved ones are unaccounted for, then there isn't full disclosure.  Maybe Mr Visser should leave that to argument.

MR VISSER: May I respond to that Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly.

MR VISSER: I'm not asking her for a legal recital of - I'm asking her on what factual basis she is saying that.  How does she understand that.  There's nothing wrong with that question and frankly, I don't believe that my Learned Friend should interfere with it.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll allow the question Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: What do you mean when you say
"We understand that they are lying"?
Do you have an answer to that?

MS NGONO: Yes, I do have an answer.

MR VISSER: Alright, will you give it to us please?

MS NGONO: As I was listening to them giving evidence, they did not tell the truth and things that they said, they do not correspond.

MR VISSER: You see this statement was taken on the 8th of March 2000, when you hadn't heard them speaking, or giving evidence, so that can't be the answer.  Let me ask you this, how or from whom did you understand that the applicants are lying?  Who told you so, if any one?

MS NGONO: Nobody told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: What led you to make such a statement?  On what facts would that have been?

MS NGONO: Mr Visser ...(intervention)