Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR BERGER: The day after the attack, the 18th of June, were you at the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, I was at the hostel.

MR BERGER: The whole day?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that Mr Themba Khosa visited the hostel on the 18th of June 1992?

MR MAZIBUKO: Mr Themba Khosa arrived after the attack but I don't remember exactly whether it's the day after the attack, but I remember that he was present at the stadium.  He was accompanied by Mr Humphrey Ndlovu.

MR BERGER: Well I can tell you that yesterday afternoon Mr Themba Khosa telephoned, or spoke to SAFM and in that interview he stated that he was at KwaMadala hostel on the 18th of June 1992, within hours of having heard the news on the radio.  So you can accept that it was the day immediately after the attack.

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not agree or disagree with that.  Like I've already explain that I was present at that day when Mr Themba Khosa addressed the meeting but I don't remember whether it was on the 18th or not.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting Mr Themba Khosa told you to destroy the evidence linking you to the massacre, including all the goods stolen from Boipatong, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I didn't hear that at the stadium.  What I heard, he said to us that we should co-operate with the police.

MR BERGER: Did he ask you if you were involved in the massacre?  Not "you" personally, "you" plural.

MR MAZIBUKO: What I remember him saying at the stadium was that he heard that there was a massacre in Boipatong and there are allegations that we are suspects.  So the police was to search the hostel so that they can see if  they can get something that will link us to the massacre in Boipatong.  That is what I remember him saying.

MR BERGER: Who burnt the goods, the loot from Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: I didn't see the person who burnt the goods.

MR BERGER: But you did see the goods being burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I did see the goods burning.

MR BERGER: Where were the goods burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: They were burnt inside the big dustbin which was in front of the room where I was staying with Tshabango.

MR BERGER: And was that before or after Themba Khosa arrived?

MR MAZIBUKO: The time when I left the room to the stadium some of the goods were already burning then and that was the time I found Themba Khosa in the stadium.

MR BERGER: So Themba Khosa was in the stadium at the time when the goods were being burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the police were in the stadium with Themba Khosa at the time when the goods were being burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: When Themba Khosa was still in the stadium the good were still burning but the police had not yet entered the gate.  There was only one Nyala and there was only policemen on top of that Nyala holding the video.  They only came into the stadium after Themba Khosa had addressed us.

MR BERGER: So when Themba Khosa addressed you in the stadium there were no policemen present?

MR MAZIBUKO: The time Themba Khosa addressed us in the stadium he was accompanied by two white senior policemen, the time he was addressing us.

MR BERGER: And at that time the stolen property from Boipatong was being burnt.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that Mr Mkhize, Beki Nkosi Mkhize, Mr Matanda and Mr Richard Dlamini went from room to room taking goods which had been stolen from Boipatong, to where they were burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: I did not see these three people taking stolen goods to where they were burnt.  They only announced that all those goods that were stolen from Boipatong should be taken to the dustbin.  And there were other people who were taking those goods to the dustbin.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say at page 118, you say
"Mkhize ..."
This is the second last paragraph.
"... Mkhize, Matanda and Richard Dlamini walked from room to room and took the goods to a big rubbish holder where they were burnt."
Is that not correct, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: What is written here, Mr Berger, I'll agree that I said ...(indistinct) that Mr Mkhize, Mr Matanda and ... they were taking goods which were stolen from Boipatong.  But what I'm saying in this statement is that these people were taking goods from room to room, it was not possible.  I will ask you to forgive me if I said that, what I wanted to say is that they were announcing room to room that people should take out the goods so that they should be burnt.

MR BERGER: So what is stated in this paragraph is not correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, this paragraph that refers to these three people is correct but only where I say they were taking goods from room to room, that portion is incorrect.  What I wanted to say is that they were moving from one room to another announcing because it was not possible for them to do that.

MR BERGER: Who is - why did you not correct this?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have marked with a pen there if I remember well, I intended to rectify that mistake.

MR BERGER: Who is Matanda?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's one of the hostel dwellers.  I only know him by the name of Matanda but we used to call him Father as well.

MR BERGER: Where is he now?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't want to commit myself, I don't know where he is now.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see it's past 1 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still have many questions to ask?

MR BERGER: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well finish up then.  How long do you think we'll take?

MR BERGER: I should be approximately 10 minutes and I'll be done.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, well let's continue then.

MR BERGER: When were you arrested, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: Regarding the Boipatong massacre?

MR BERGER: Have you been arrested for other things as well?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I'm in prison right now.

MR BERGER: For another massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When were you arrested in relation to the Boipatong massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't remember the date and the month but what I remember is that I handed myself over to the police station.  I was accompanied by my lawyer to the police station.

MR BERGER: You don't know if it was a week after the massacre, a month after the massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: I can say it was after a month.

MR BERGER: And the other massacre that you're in jail for, which one is that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm in jail for murder and robbery.

MR BERGER: I just want to know which incident you're referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant to the proceedings?

MR BERGER: Indeed Chairperson, if there was another massacre that this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He never said "massacre", he said he's in jail for murder and robbery.

MR BERGER: Well Chairperson, murder of how many people eventually ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, but he is not before us on that matter, he is here in connection with the Boipatong massacre.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I won't pursue it, save to place on record that I've already made it clear that we intend to argue that there was a plan of the IFP to sow mayhem in the Vaal for political purposes.  What I am attempting to investigate is whether this action was part of that plan.  I won't take it further.
	You know that Victor Keswa was called "The Vaal Monster"?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know.

MR BERGER: How did you get rid of your weapons?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he put them on the roof, on the scaffold. ...(end of tape)

MR BERGER: ... where you left them?

MR MAZIBUKO: After the attack the police came and they searched.  They took everything, a weapon and iron bar and everything.  So all of them were taken by the police.

MR BERGER: Did the police take your weapons from the place where you had left them?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct they took them.  I did not hide them I just threw them there.  I just threw them there.  So when I hide something I make a point that no-one will get it.

MR BERGER: So the police would have known that those particular weapons came from your room?