Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning again.    I think just for record purposes, I will just indicate where we went, we needn't give a full and detailed description of what we saw, but we have just returned now from an inspection in loco of two sites.  We first of all went to Winkelspruit to the old shooting range where we were pointed out various aspects of that area.  We then after that proceeded to a place on the Inanda Road in the vicinity of the Ghandi and Bambayi settlements where another area was pointed out as being the place near or at which the body of the deceased was left by Messrs Wasserman and du Preez and then on the way back, we went past the house of the deceased in G-Section.  I don't know if any of the legal representatives wish to put anything that they feel that should be put on the record relating to the inspection in loco.  I can mention that at the shooting range, only one structure remains, it is roofless at the moment and exists as two, presently as two ablution blocks, one female and one male, toilets is a better word really.   There has been a degree of refurbishment of that structure in that the store room that has been referred to in the evidence where the interrogation of Ms Khubeka took place, has now been converted into toilets.  There is - cubicles have been built in that room, but we were informed that the room is very  much the same as it was, save for those cubicles, it was just a square room, it was paced out to be 3 x 3.  The other room in that structure is a toilet as mentioned already and during 1987, was also a toilet, it is a slightly larger room, approximately 5 x 3 paces and between the rooms, it is no longer covered, but it is just an open porch type area which apparently at the time was covered by a roof which went from the one end of the structure to the other.  We were informed that there was a concrete slab approximately 40 square metres in area, which used to be there during 1987, which had steel poles around its perimeter or at certain points on its perimeter over which, between which a canvass cover existed, which used to be used as a sleeping area.  That concrete slab is no longer in existence, but we did see remnants of it, that had obviously been bulldozed into the bush behind.  The shooting range doesn't exist.  It is an area when you stand there, although we were told that the bush at the moment is denser than it was at the time, but if you stand at that structure, it is what I would call private, there is no overlooking buildings or houses in the immediate vicinity.  The area where we went to on the Inanda Road, we have been informed by Mr du Preez there at the site, had changed considerably.  During 1987 it was not a double freeway as it is now, it was a tarred road, a main road, but only a single road with traffic driving on it in two directions.  They have now constructed a double freeway with the result that the road at the spot where we were, is built up to quite a height, I would say about two or three metres, steep slope down to before you get to where the grass is growing.  That wasn't like that at the time, but the area where we were, was about just my own estimate, three quarters of a kilometre or so from the Ghandi settlement and across the road from it, I am informed the area is called Inanda, there were houses there.  The houses that we saw now on the side of the road towards Bambayi and Ghandi, are close to the road, but we were informed that at the time  in question, the closest house was approximately 400/500 metres away from there.  The grass that we saw there was as described, about the height of 750 mm's.  I don't know if there is anything further, Mr Visser, that you would like to add.  I will ask each of the legal representatives if they wish to add anything for purposes of the record.   But before doing so, I just must mention that this must have been an emotional experience for members of the family going to these sites and we feel for you and you have our sympathies.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, yes, as I understand you to say, it is not now the time to make a complete recording of everything that happened.  Perhaps just one important aspect which might be mentioned is that between the two buildings which we saw, which are separated by the verandah type structure, the two doors face each other onto the verandah.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the structure that we saw which has since as already mentioned, been converted into a toilet block, the doors have been blocked off by an L-shaped brickwork, both doors and that brickwork is new.  In 1987 the two doors just faced each other, both opening onto the verandah or the porch directly.  Mr Wills, do you wish to add anything?

MR WILLS: No, I don't wish to add anything, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.   May I place on record also that the black members, it was confirmed that the black members and the white members slept separately, more pertinently that the white members slept in the area where the steel poles with the concrete slab was, and the black members slept in the little building that we had looked at.  Further, that ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that we will have to get evidence on that, Mr Samuel.  We know that certain spots were pointed out by various people, we also heard that sometimes people slept in kombis in the premises, etc., but I think any information of such a nature will have to come through the form of sworn evidence.

MR SAMUEL: I will reserve, thank you.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I might not have been concentrating at the time, but did you mention the fact that we went to the home of the deceased?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mentioned that, that on the way back from the last point, we went via the home of the deceased, in G-Section, kwaMashu.   When one was at the home, one couldn't see, well I couldn't see the Ghandi settlement at all.  It is difficult to say what the distance is because the road that we took, was fairly ...(indistinct), we had to go down the main road and then double back, but the estimate that we have on record that it was approximately five kilometres, maybe five to seven, I have heard as well, wouldn't be too far off the mark from the spot on the Inanda Road where we went.  Mr Botha, Mr van der Merwe any ...  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: May it please you Mr Chairman.  The next witness and the last of my witnesses whom I will call is Mr van der Westhuizen.  You have his statement in front of you, Exhibit F.

C A VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

MR VISSER: Mr van der Westhuizen, you are an applicant in this matter with regard to Mrs Nthombi Khubeka, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application is in the Khubeka Bundle, page 42 to 53, that would be Bundle 1, in which you deal with the incident from page 45 to 46?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the content of your amnesty application before this Committee?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You have studied the Exhibit A under the title "General Background Amnesty Applications", is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Are there any portions of that document of which you do not know?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Those would be the incidents which took place in Botswana and Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Therefore you cannot express any opinion on those matters but with regard to the balance of Exhibit A, does it concur with your insights and knowledge regarding the struggle of the past?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And do you request that this be incorporated in your evidence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And also any other such evidence which may refer to it, in Exhibit A?