Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

JOHN WILLS: So surely, surely it would have been reasonable for us in order to believe your version, for you to say to your subordinates that every single development in respect of these people, I must be notified of beforehand.  I mean it seems to be unbelievable that you would just give people a free hand.

H J P BOTHA: No they did not just have a free hand.  The situation unfolded as such during the pursuit and observation and instead of wrecking the operation they went over to the arrest of Mr Nyanda.  They were not informed that no arrests had to take place because I was not in a position to inform them.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be some time still?

JOHN WILLS: I'm going to be a long time with this witness yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  We'll take the adjournment now and we'll resume at 9,30 tomorrow morning.

JOHN WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, you raised another matter with me earlier this morning as to half past 12 unless we are likely to make tomorrow.

MR VISSER: May I qualify that, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Perhaps if you feel that we can achieve something by going through lunch hour and adjourning at 2 or half past 2 we would certainly co-operate in doing that Mr Chairman.  We would just like to get away here by 3 o'clock tomorrow afternoon, but depending on the arrangements of the other members of your staff who might have made other arrangements, we will fall in with any arrangement.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we'll see how it goes tomorrow morning, tomorrow.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, may I just raise a matter of particular difficulty that I have?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I have had to postpone a number of appointments today and tomorrow.  I was given a notice that I'm an interested party.  I have come here ready to give evidence but in the course of what has been presented this afternoon, the African National Congress, the Communist party, Vula, myself personally and cadres who were under my direct command have all been implicated so I occupy a position in the African National Congress, I occupied it in the Communist Party and I was a Commander of Vula.  I therefore raise the question firstly whether the Committee will consider allowing me to cross-examine the witnesses because it is right across the board implicated.  The African National Congress is central to this and the portrayal of the African National Congress is central.  How it treats it's members is central.  It's policies are central.  So I would make that request.  Secondly, while I have managed to cancel my appointments for tomorrow, I might not be able to cancel the appointments and go on after late morning Monday, but I think that I am raising this first question in a spirit of co-operation knowing that your search is to find out the actual truth and to find out whether disclosure has been made and whether it is honest disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there are procedures, some guidelines and witnesses who wish to give evidence will be allowed to give evidence.  Implicated persons only allowed to come to the extent to which they are personally implicated, Mr Maharaj and only to the extent that you are implicated.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Is the African National Congress a juristic person in that sense?

CHAIRPERSON: It's not implicated as such.  This is the - otherwise this hearing can go on 6 months.  You understand?  There are certain limits within which we've got to confine this application.  I have no objection to your giving evidence but my other difficulty as far as you are concerned Mr Maharaj is, proceeding at the rate at which we are, it seems you have been unfortunately ill advised about when you are likely to be required.  It doesn't seem likely that you will be required tomorrow either, Mr Maharaj, because...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That will create very big difficulties for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately it creates very great difficulties for all of us.  We were under the impression we were going to complete this application today, not later than today because there is another matter that was supposed to be set down immediately after this, but the deal is quite often something that is beyond our control.  Applications last much longer and delays occur which we don't anticipate.  Now I think you should consult with counsel in this matter here, to give you a better idea, to save a lot of your time and to make yourself available should you wish to put your side of the case, not in cross-examination, but in evidence, so that your evidence may be tested by counsel.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I thought with due respect, that the witness has directly implicated me.  He has actually challenged ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so, your name has been mentioned as being one of the people.  Now whether you wish to give evidence or not is a matter that you must decide and I will certainly afford you all the opportunity to give evidence, but you'll have to make yourself available when it's convenient.  As things stand, this matter if it is not finished tomorrow, will resume on Monday morning and how far we will get on Monday morning, when there are five applicants, we haven't finished with one applicant, there are four others, and what progress we'll make tomorrow in respect of the other four, I can't tell you at this stage.  So you'd better make yourself available by telephonic, through some means, so that you can be told at 10 o'clock or at 11 o'clock or at 12 o'clock tomorrow.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: My concern Mr Chairperson, with due respect, was when I heard counsel for the applicant say that he'd like the session to adjourn at half-past 2 tomorrow.  That may be very convenient for counsels, who are paid, but I am not paid to be here.  I'm coming here voluntarily and the only thing that I'm paid for is my fare.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maharaj if you are not available on Monday to come and give evidence, then we'll have to sort that out.  We'll have to hear all the evidence and arrange for you to come and give evidence on some other occasion. Mr Wills, you have to make an assessment as to when you would require Mr Maharaj to give evidence.  You see what Mr Maharaj says may be very, very important and it has to be tested by questioning by counsel for it to be worth as evidence.

JOHN WILLS: Yes, indeed, I'll do so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS