Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  For the purposesof the record I introduce myself, T V Matsepe of the same firmT V Matsepe and Company practising at Odendaalsrus.  Mr ChairmanI just want to point out from the onset that I shall lead, indeedstart leading the evidence of Petros, but must also point outto the Committee that I have instructions to appear on behalfof five applicants.  For the purposes of the convenience of thedeliberations I have opted to lead the evidence of all the fiveapplicants that I am appearing on behalf of, and then later onlead the evidence of any further witnesses which we might deemnecessary.  The reason for this Mr Chairman is that the circumstancessurrounding the incidents relating to these applications are allto a great extent similar, and in that way we hope that we shallbe sparing a lot of time for the Commission.
 Before I continue I would just like to confirm Mr Roland, MrChairman I am led to believe that before I lead the evidence ofthe first applicant Roland Petros it would be necessary for himto take the oath.

ROLAND PETROS: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Roland I would like you to feel completelyat ease.  Is that in order?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Before we start with your evidence Iwould like to know from you do you realise what the nature oftoday's proceedings is?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes I understand it.

UNKNOWN: Do you also understand that this is nota court case in the sense that you are being tried, do you understandthat?  Do you realise that this is not a trial in the sense thatyou are not standing there as an accused in a trial?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes I understand that.

UNKNOWN: Do you also realise that you must bevery open with this Committee, for instance if you had appearedin court in a case arising from the same incident, you must justrealise that today's proceedings demands of you that you makea full disclosure of the facts?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes I understand.

UNKNOWN: In other words you must not conceal orhide anything from the Commission.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, no, absolutely.

UNKNOWN: Firstly I would like you to tell theCommission where you were born and when you were born.
You may continue, where were you born?

ROLAND PETROS: I was born in Johannesburg, El dorado Park,in 28 Sand Street, 1969.  I then moved to Ennerdale to CancerStreet, Ennerdale.

UNKNOWN: You see there are people here in theaudience who would also like to hear what you have to say.  Theyare very interested in your evidence and therefore I would liketo ask you could you please speak a little bit louder.

ROLAND PETROS: Right.

UNKNOWN: Please explain to the committee whatyour links are with Kroonstad.

ROLAND PETROS: My father was born in Kroonstad, Mr PhilipPetros, and his entire family also born here, the entire Petrosfamily.  I spent most of my early years in Kroonstad with membersof the Petros family.  So a large part of my life I spent in Kroonstadrather in Johannesburg where I'd been born.  It's a very largefamily the Petros family.

UNKNOWN: Now did you visit Kroonstad regularlyduring the period in which this incident took place?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, frequently, and also before the incidenttook place I visited Kroonstad regularly.  I spent the majorityof my time here rather than in Johannesburg where I was born.

UNKNOWN: Ja, could you just explain why that isso? Seeing that you were born in Johannesburg and your parentslived there why did you spend such a large part of your time inKroonstad?

ROLAND PETROS: Well the reason for that is because I wasinvolved in the ANC Youth League in Kroonstad and that's why Ispent a lot of time here.

UNKNOWN: Were you a member of the ANC Youth League?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What time were you a member of the ANCYouth League, even if you can just give us an approximate time,even if it's not a specific date?

ROLAND PETROS: From approximately 1980, I can't rememberexactly.

UNKNOWN: Were you involved in the activities ofthe Youth League during 1991 and 1992?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes in some cases.

UNKNOWN: Ja you were convicted in a matter arisingfrom the murder of George Ramasimong whose nickname was "Diwiti".

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And you were sentenced for this murder?

ROLAND PETROS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: I would like you to explain to the committeewhat you knew of this particular person before we get to the actualevent, what do you know about the deceased, how did you get toknow him?

ROLAND PETROS: I met the deceased in the community as a callous,cruel, merciless person, who terrorised the community day in andday out.

UNKNOWN: And how did you become aware of this?

ROLAND PETROS: Well that was because of my involvement withthe ANC Youth League, and because I was often with Senator Bloemin his company.

UNKNOWN: Now could you explain to the Committeewho Senator Bloem was at that stage?

ROLAND PETROS: Senator Bloem is one of my cousins, actuallymy father's cousin, in fact he's my uncle.

UNKNOWN: Yes well apart from that ...(intervention)

ROLAND PETROS: Excuse me.

UNKNOWN: Is there a family connection betweenthe two of you?  Is there a family connection between yourselfand Senator Bloem?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Did he hold office within the ANC structureat the time?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.  He was the leader of the ANC in theMaokeng branch.

UNKNOWN: Were any of your family members harmedby either the Three Million Gang and/or George Ramasimong himself?

ROLAND PETROS: I regard the whole community as my familyso the whole community have been terrorised by this person soI can say "yes" to that question.

UNKNOWN: I know it that in the case you mentioneda certain person by the name of Philip, Philip Petros, do youknow him?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Who is he?

ROLAND PETROS: That's my father.

UNKNOWN: Philip Petros is your father?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: No the person who had been killed - MrChairman if you would allow me.  You mentioned a person who'dbeen killed who was a member of your family?

ROLAND PETROS: That is Andrew Petros.

UNKNOWN: You also mention a Simon Bloem here,could you tell us a little bit more about him?

ROLAND PETROS: Well Simon Bloem was killed in a most brutalmanner on the 14th of February 1992.

UNKNOWN: Do you know how he had been killed?

ROLAND PETROS: No I don't know how he had been killed butI had heard that it happened at the taxi rank.  He had been killedsomewhere there in cold blood by the Three Million gang.

UNKNOWN: According to information which you hadobtained who was responsible for this murder?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes I was worried ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: No, who had been responsible for themurder, according to what you had learnt?

ROLAND PETROS: Diwiti and the Three Million gang.

UNKNOWN: How had he been killed?

ROLAND PETROS: He was killed in cold blood in a most cruelmanner.

UNKNOWN: Well had he been shot or killed?

ROLAND PETROS: He had been butchered, he had been stabbed,he had been torn apart if one could actually call it that.

UNKNOWN: Right.  Before this murder with whichwe are concerned with here had there been any meetings to talkabout this problem the problem presented by the gang?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, there had been many meetings regardingthis gang.  Yes, there were many different meetings held to discussthe problem presented by this gang.

UNKNOWN: Was a meeting held at which specificmention was made of the possibility of killing George Ramasimong?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes such a meeting was held.

UNKNOWN: Could you give us some more details regardingthis meeting, where was it held?

ROLAND PETROS: It was held at Brent Park Stadium.  I can'texactly remember who attended the meeting, everybody who attendedthe meeting, but in the meeting a request came from the communityto the self-protection unit to remove this George Ramasimong fromsociety because of the way he terrorised society in various cold-bloodedways.