Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, let me put it this way, after Ntjebe questioned them he came to report back and then we went and then his son, Buthelezi's son said: "Dad speak, you sent us to kill Blanko".

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his father then?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was in the meeting Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the meeting, but in relation to where the son was and where the questioning was taking place, where was the father?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would not estimate his position or the distance from the son but he was in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I get the impression that the father, that is Buthelezi, must have been close by where the questioning was taking place for the son to have said: "Father tell them, you are the one who said we must go to Blanko's place".

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, he did not speak soft, he shouted, he said: "Dad, tell them, tell them that you are the person who sent us to kill Blanko".  He did not say it soft.  The community heard that Buthelezi sent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Presumably the son could see where the father was or that the father was present at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He might have seen him Sir.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell us again, what was the time that this meeting was held, the time of day?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would not remember the time but it was in the morning, 6 until 7 o'clock in the morning.

MR MALAN: May I just pursue again, sorry Mr Mapoma.  This Tusanang, who captured him?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang was also captured at the meeting but he survived, he escaped.

MR MALAN: Was he captured at the meeting or was he captured and brought to the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He came with Sugar and them but he managed to survive.

MR MALAN: Did Sugar capture him at some other place, Sugar's group?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I think they came - he came with Sugar's group.

MR MALAN: How many people were captured when that meeting was held at 6 o'clock?  How many people, captured people did you have at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would say there were 10 because Tusanang managed to escape.

MR MALAN: And this meeting was a meeting of the community and you said earlier there were about 500 people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that's an estimation, I'm not sure.

MR MALAN: How did he escape?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We were also surprised as to how he escaped, he must have used his tactics.  We wanted him, he was nowhere to be found.

MR MALAN: He was captured, and I think you earlier said that some of them were already tied, was Tusanang not tied?  Why not?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I already said that after the meeting they were tied, then they were taken to that shack.  They were still free during his escape.

MR MALAN: May I just pursue the nature of this meeting again.   You say 6 o'clock in the morning, the sun has been up for less than an hour, you have 500 hundred people there, Machinini, the Chair of the civics is there, you say he's chairing the meeting but no questions asked, Ndondolo reports.  Did Machinini speak at that meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Machinini was addressing the meeting, he addressed the meeting.

MR MALAN: What was his address about, what did he say?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was addressing the issue of Bulelwa and Blanko.  He was addressing crime in general in Moleleki section.

MR MALAN: What did he say about Bulelwa and Blanko?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was saying criminal activities must be done away with in Moleleki.

MR MALAN: Did he say criminal activities or did he say criminals?  If I may repeat the question, did he say that people must be killed or did he say crime must stop?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He did not say people must be killed, he said crime must be stopped.

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, I understood you yesterday to say that Katlehong with it's various sections was engulfed in violence and criminal activities and whilst Machinini was now addressing the meeting at the early hours of the morning at Blanko's place, why do you think he only spoke of Moleleki section and not Katlehong as a whole?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, Machinini came with Manyala, Ntjebe and the three who were caught and he came with the intention of addressing the meeting because he was the vice chairperson of Zone 5.

MR MOTATA: Zone 5 would be Moleleki section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Zone 5 included Moleleki, Seloma, Moleleki and other sections.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.
	Now in that meeting, were the parents and relatives of those captured present?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I did not notice them, whether they were there or not but Buthelezi was present because his son managed to point him but I did not notice the others.

MR MAPOMA: Now in that meeting, was there at no stage where the parents of these children were asked their whereabouts?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

MR MAPOMA: I take it Judge, that the majority of those were youths, is it correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And it was a question of children behaving themselves in a manner unbecoming in the community, isn't it so?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said already that they were the members of the ANC Youth League but their behaviour was not good at all within the community.

MR MAPOMA: Now, if a child misbehaves in the community generally, is it not expected that a parent of that child is called and told of the activities of the child?  Is it not a general exercise?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, it depended on the nature of the committed act and the emotions and the anger of the people, you can't control people's emotions.

MR MAPOMA: Is there no-one of the parents of those children who wanted to speak in that meeting, as far as you remember?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not remember Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Did you know any of the parents of those children who were captured at that time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I did not know any parent but last year on television, it was around October if I'm not mistaken, there was this info programme on SABC television and the parents of the deceased appeared on that programme and one family went to the veld where the deceased were killed and the head was still on the body.  When she went to the mortuary the body was separated from the head.
	Now this surprised me a lot because during the killing I didn't notice anybody chopping off the head.  I am here today to tell the truth and I am not going to hide anything.  I did not see anyone of us removing the head from the body.

MR MAPOMA: But that was not my question, my question was, is there anyone of those captured whose parents you knew at the time of the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: During the meeting I did not know any family, I knew Mokwena's family thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after the meeting, where were these youths taken?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were taken to a shack that I've referred to yesterday.

MR MAPOMA: Where was that shack actually?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In block F.

MR MAPOMA: Who's shack was it?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Nobody owned the shack Sir.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by that, are you saying it was an empty shack that was not occupied by anyone?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That was an empty shack Sir, because many inhabitants of F ran away from that area because that area was close to Zongezizwe and they were attacked by members of the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: When they were taken to the shack, how many were they?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I can't be specific but I think there were eight because Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi.

MR MAPOMA: Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi, where was Vips from?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Vips went with this group, went back with this group.  This is the group that was arrested when it went to report.