Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, merely the fact that I had no access to any people from outside or my legal team and the fact that I was in solitary confinement, that was the pressure, the emotional pressure that was applied to me.  That's the soul purpose of the Section 29 custody.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were never tortured, no physical force was applied to whatsoever.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, fortunately not.

MR SIBANYONI: And also the time, the period you took in making the statement, it was as you please, nobody was forcing to be quick in making the statement I suppose?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, what they would do, they would arrive at my cell saying: "Have you thought about what we asked", and if I subsequently answered: "I've got nothing to say", they would leave me for another week without speaking to me at all.  That was they type of pressure that they applied at this moment in time.

MR SIBANYONI: Wouldn't you say therefore that means they were sort of sympathetic, either with the cause the CCB was fighting or that you were previously in the Police Force?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, no, they weren't sympathetic with me, they saw this as a break, a bread in their police - what's the correct word now, during their investigation they would see that as a major break for them in their police career.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, whatever you stated in this statement, came from you, nobody suggested that to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There were certain things that they said to me that they knew of and they said: "Talk to us about this".  Basically, they led me regarding certain aspects, and I also asked them, I said: "Do you know about this?"  It was almost like a cat and mouse game, if I had to express it as such, the object was to see who knew what, so that I could determine how far to go, what to say, what not to say.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Botha, just with regard to your blue plan, whatever happened to it?  This company Capil that you started.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Cabot.

MR LAX: Cabot, I beg your pardon.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not continue managing the company, the company is dormant.

MR LAX: You said that while you were on "ice", you spent quite a bit of time carrying on with the establishment of that plan, what exactly did you do?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I went to the various manufacturers of the products that I was distributing and closed contracts with them and I also tried to determine the market needs for the products that I would be distributing.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you have a structure?  You had rented office space, office furniture, that sort of thing?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, Honourable Chair.

MR LAX: Did you have partners, people, employees?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR LAX: Did you close any deals to supply any material to anybody?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think that I did conduct singular transactions for embroidery and gifts and promotional items, which I provided to institutions.

MR LAX: Now you conceded to Mr Kahanovitz earlier that this mine that was used was big enough to kill and that no additional doctoring would be required, it was big enough to kill people.  As you will recall, I suggested to you that the nature of the explosion was such, from these photographs, why didn't you as an explosives expert say to them: "Chaps, this is just too big man, if you're going to warn people and you don't want to injure people,"  The idea was never to kill anybody, the idea was to send a warning.  I mean surely you as an expert know that the smaller limpet mine is a much better tool to use for this job.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, not necessarily, and I will explain to you on the basis of my statement.  If I look at the photos, the project was aimed exclusively at disrupting the structure of the building.  Looking at the photos, it would appear to have been successful, it disrupted the structure of the building, it caused significant damage.  Such a limpet mine with approximately 340grms of explosives would not have caused the same damage.

MR LAX: But these people could have used any other halls in the community, there are lots of other halls there, there are churches, there are all sorts of things, that couldn't possibly have been the object.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept what you have said, but my exclusive instruction was to do what I did.  I understand what you've said and I respect your opinion, but I cannot tell you more than this.  I have noted what you have said, but my exclusive instruction was what it was and I observed it.

MR LAX: Now you've told that you made this Section 29 statement because you realised from the questions that were asked of you by the two policemen who questioned you, it was Rossouw, if I remember correctly, and Carter.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right, Sir.

MR LAX: You said that from the nature of those questions that they asked you and now from what you've just said to Mr Sibanyoni, your questions to them, you realised how much they knew.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right, Sir.

MR LAX: Well if I look at this Section 29 Statement, they knew practically everything.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I understand what you've said, it was also insightful to me that they identified many of these things themselves from their information sources, whatever they may have been, or whoever they may have been.

MR LAX: Well wasn't it evidence to you from that that there was an enormous security breach within the CCB?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it was rather clear to me.

MR LAX: Well surely that would have been sufficient to tell you that now's the time to come clean, these guys know everything.  The game's up.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I hear you, Mr Lax, but to who would I say this?

MR LAX: To the police, take your chances, cut a deal with the A-G at that time.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In retrospect it was probably an option, but I didn't view it as such.

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put?  Mr du Plessis, I see you want to ...

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Actually arising from what Ms Coleridge asked, I just want to ask one question.
	Mr Botha, Mr Maree's instructions to me were, and it was also his evidence, that upon your return from Cape Town you had to take his vehicle tot he airport for Mr van Zyl's use.  Would you dispute that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

UNKNOWN: Furthermore his instructions are that he was not physically present during the feedback to Mr Burger, is that also possible?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it is.

UNKNOWN: So you cannot recall specifically that he heard this discussion or the feedback between Van Zyl and Burger?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: It would have been contrary to the working method.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying that you can't remember whether Mr Maree was there or not at the airport?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I'm not putting that he wasn't at the airport, I'm just putting that he wasn't ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh that he may not have heard a discussion.

UNKNOWN: Yes, he wasn't present with the discussion as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?  Mr Botha, that then concludes your testimony, thank you, you may stand down.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	In conclusion I would like to use the opportunity to express my regret once again regarding the particular persons who were affected by our actions and to offer my unconditional apology and sympathy.
WITNESS EXCUSED