Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

MR PRIOR: Alright.  I just want to refer you to the Amnesty Application of Mr Thabiso James Makoala.  If you look at the bundle before you to page 4 and 5 of the prepared papers.
Would you agree with that list that those were the attacks carried out in that area and that was during 1992 except for the last one on page 4 which doesn't really relate to the Sterkspruit area - it was Umtata Ikwesi Lukuso attack but...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It was also in 1994 - so it didn't relate to the time either.

MR PRIOR: Yes but apart from that one, would you agree that the attacks or the operations that he sets out on page 4 and 5 were all the incidents involving your unit which was housed at Jozannashoek that was during 1992?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So what's you question?

MR PRIOR: No, do you agree that those are the complete number of attacks or operations that you carried out during 1992 when you and your unit were based at Jozannashoek during 1992?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't agree.

MR PRIOR: Well he lists the Mayaphuti Bridge which is the one that we're dealing with today.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, maybe he could just tell us what else or maybe why he doesn't agree and what else he wants to add.

CHAIRPERSON: Or take off.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll do that.
	Well, in which respects don't you agree with Mr Makoala's list?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't agree with Mr Prior when he says that I took part in all those attacks.

MR PRIOR: No I don't say you took part.
ADV. SANDI: Can I explain your question Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes, please.
ADV. SANDI: Mr Dolo, can you see page 4 and 5?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I can see.
ADV. SANDI: Would you say what appears there is a list of all the incidents and actions your unit was involved in whilst you were based at Jozannashoek?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: That is excluding the last one on page 4.

MR PRIOR: So you're known as Kenny, is that right?  Kenny?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There were two Kenny - I think Thabiso will be of help to explain to you.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  Is that why you say you weren't involved in all these operations?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: But these people were part of your unit, you would have given them the instruction to go out and do these operations, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: These were not the only people who were stationed at Jozanna.

MR PRIOR: Yes but during 1992 you were the commander, Regional Commander of that unit based at Jozannashoek?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's it.

MR PRIOR: And if members of your unit had gone out doing attacks the orders would have come from you, that's what I simply want to establish, or are you saying someone else may have given them orders without you knowing about that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was the Regional Commander there, taking over from Phila as I mentioned before.

MR PRIOR: I'm happy with that, I understand that.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: And I was not stationed there at Jozanna later on.

MR PRIOR: Well maybe we can deal with it this way.  You certainly had something to do with the Mayaphuti Bridge, that's the first incident he lists, can we tick that off, we can say you were involved there because that's what you're talking about today?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I'm involved.

MR PRIOR: Then the Zastron farm attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No.

MR PRIOR: Can we accept that you never went on any attack with Makoala, Mr Makoala?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Involving?

MR LAX: Sorry can I just come in there.  Mr Prior you're putting that question in a very general way. "Can we accept you never went on any attack with him" - it's not - okay - even so, let's try and be a bit more specific so we can - because I understand the problem, I'm only referring to - can I just take over here - as I said earlier, maybe you can indicate to us - what is wrong with this list of attack, what's missing from it, what other acts are there that should be added, are there any that should be taken off that you don't agree happened and then in respect of each one maybe say whether you gave the order or whether Ace Phila gave it or someone else gave it so that we can get some degree of clarity on these issues.
ADV. SANDI: But, Mr Prior, isn't that exactly what you are trying to ascertain from the witness by going with him through each and every incident that appears on this list?

MR PRIOR: The purpose of my questioning on this aspect is whether he agrees with the list supplied by Mr Makoala who was a member of his unit at Jozannashoek.  Whether he agrees that those were the sum total of operations that were carried out during 1992 while they were based in that area.

MR LAX: So we already know that's not the sum total from previous evidence we've heard because there were some training  attacks they went on and other things they may have done so that's why I'm saying there's a problem with them putting it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us just going through them one by one and then asking if there are any others, but before we do that, can you perhaps help me.  We've heard about a Kenny Madibula, is that you or is that the other Kenny?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's the second Kenny.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the other one.  Right, you've told us that you did take part in the bridge, Mayaphuti Bridge attack.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you agree that the people there were the other applicant - Mr Makoala, Roger and Scorpion the other people?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I do agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you tell us any other names for them?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I know them with those names.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, then the Zastron farm attack, do you know of that attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that there was such an attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know anything about such an attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't heard from anybody?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I heard it later when we just discussed but not officially.

CHAIRPERSON: The Sterkspruit Hotel attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: When quite a lot of - I think that's the one I'm saying - quite a lot of money came back from that.

MR LAX: Sixty Five Thousand, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know about it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The Lady Grey ambush?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I took part in it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you agree with the people there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Except the name Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu.
	Then the Lady Grey farm attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I never take part in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know about it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give any instructions for it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And there is a second Lady Grey farm attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Also, I never take part in this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear about it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I don't know whether I hear or not, I don't recall.

MR LAX: Did you - sorry - we can assume you didn't give any instructions for that either?  That was the second farm attack in Lady Grey.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I never take part in it and I never gave instructions.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And finally, the Sterkspruit Garage attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I never participated in it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear about it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I hear about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give instructions?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were there any other attacks in that year 1992 by members of this group who were living together?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any other attacks apart from the ones I've just asked you about that were committed by members of your group in 1992?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not in that area of Sterkspruit, Lady Grey, Zastron.

CHAIRPERSON: In other areas?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us about them?