Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, then why did you give the same reasons for trying to justify whatever you may or may not have done to Mr Biko?  Can you explain?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the drafting of this amnesty application was done, as I have said, in co-operation with my attorney.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, that only means that neither you nor your attorney really gave any attention as to why you did what you did to Mr Biko, but you signed it, on oath.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a matter for legal argument, I think.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, with respect, I
think it should be Mr Burmeister first.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.  Do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR BURMEISTER: Yes, I do, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.
EXAMINATION BY MR BURMEISTER
	Thank you.  Mr Snyman, you have given us an oversight as to the role that Col Goosen played in the whole scenario.
Would I be correct if, from what you've told the hearing, that he was persuasive and prepared to lie in order to protect the security police and their actions and misdeeds.  Would that be a correct summing up of Col Goosen?

MR SNYMAN: That would be correct, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Would you also agree if, it is apparent from what you've placed before us at, Col Goosen was prepared to mislead anybody who he possibly could in endeavouring to protect the reputation of the security police.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Amongst the persons who he misled was the magistrate and the assessors who sat at the inquest during 1977, November.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Did you know Dr Laing who was a district surgeon at the time of this incident?

MR SNYMAN: I did know him, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Did you know him personally or did you know of him?

MR SNYMAN: I knew him personally, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Now we're speaking about the situation prior to 1977 when this particular incident occurred.  Did you know him or did you get to know him afterwards?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, he was the district surgeon.  We, as policemen received medical attention from the district surgeons in earlier times and I became acquainted with him in that capacity.  As district surgeon, I became acquainted with him as his patient.

MR BURMEISTER: But as far as the treatment of prisoners and detainees were concerned, there was in fact a difference between ordinary prisoners and detainees?  Is that correct?  As far as the medical treatment was concerned and who treated them in 1977?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that question.  What is the difference?

MR BURMEISTER: Yes, may I just put it to you possibly - now may I make the statement to you that at that point in time Dr Laing looked after prison prisoners, in other words those who were confined to a prison, in other words ordinary prisoners and another district surgeon attended to section 6 detainees.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: I will not be able to say, your Honour, which doctor performed which function, but it was the function of the district surgeon to visit prisoners, if necessary.

MR BURMEISTER: Yes, but what I am saying and evidence was led to this effect at the inquest that it was Dr Laing's duty at that point in time to deal with ordinary prisoners and another doctor attended to section 6 detainees? Can you dispute that or can you throw any light on that?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, all that I can recall is that subsequently I was informed that Dr Laing was called in by Col Goosen to attend to Mr Biko.

MR BURMEISTER: Yes, were you aware of the fact that the reason why Dr Laing was called in on this particular day was because the district surgeon who normally attended to section 6 detainees, was out of town and it was purely by chance that Dr Laing was called in?  Were you aware of that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, I was not aware of that.  I had no contact with the doctors whatsoever.  This was done by Col Goosen.

MR BURMEISTER: On the 7th of September 1977, you came back to office.  That was after Mr Biko had spent the night at your offices?  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Can you recall at what time you returned on that morning? Would it have been your normal office hours;  half past seven or seven o'clock or whatever?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Did you, when you came to office, make any enquiries as to the condition in the situation relating to Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: As I have said earlier, I was informed by my colleagues what his situation was.

MR BURMEISTER: So you did not actually go and inspect or examine him personally on the morning of the 7th of September?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, Col Goosen then informed me that he was going to take the matter from there onwards and I presumed that should a doctor be called in, which of course should have been done, that he would have attended to that.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, on the morning of the 7th you yourself did not go and see the state in which Mr Biko was?  That's the question.  Did you or did you not?

MR SNYMAN: I am not able to recall exactly, but it is possible that I went to look and I might have seen that his state had not changed.

MR BURMEISTER: During your cross-examination I understood you to say that you had in fact gone to see him and you also described his state at that point in time on the 7th of September.  Was that conjecture on your part?  Are you not sure at this point in time?

MR SNYMAN: No, it is possible that I went to see.

MR BURMEISTER: But you can't specifically recall?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I might have been there that morning and what would have interested me, would have been whether we could continue with the interrogation or not.

MR BURMEISTER: You mentioned to Col Goosen that it was your assumption that Mr Biko had suffered a blow to the head.  When I say a blow I mean his head was bumped against the wall.  Did you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Col Goosen mentioned that he was going to call in medical assistance.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.  I requested him to obtain medical assistance.

MR BURMEISTER: Was there any discussion between yourself and Col Goosen as to what you would tell the district surgeon as to the reason for Mr Biko's condition and what could possibly have caused it?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  That was exclusively handled by Col Goosen.

MR BURMEISTER: Did Col Goosen not advise you what to say if Dr Laing possibly asked you or anybody else how the state, the medical state of the detainee had arisen?  What your answer was to be at that stage?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, he did not discuss this with me.

MR BURMEISTER: You're no doubt well aware that at the inquest it was mentioned that Dr Laing was told by Col Goosen that it was suspected that Mr Biko had suffered a stroke.  Are you aware of that evidence having been led at the inquest?

MR SNYMAN: I am not aware of it.  That was a conversation between Col Goosen and the medical doctor.

MR BURMEISTER: Was there ever any discussion between yourself and Goosen as to what you were going to tell Dr Laing?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Was the question of a stroke ever raised between yourself and Goosen?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, not to the best of my memory.

MR BURMEISTER: Bearing in mind what you've told us about Col Goosen's character and his objectives, would it have been in keeping with what you knew of him to try and mislead Dr Laing as to - as far as the condition of Mr Biko was concerned?

MR SNYMAN: That would be the case, your Honour.