Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I couldn't stay there because as I was released on the 25th of June, when I got home my brothers, one of them was a ...(indistinct).  The committee met in a meeting and I was called and I was told about the policies or principles or rules and I was told to join them and buy an IFP card at my next-door neighbour.

MR PANDAY: Did you join and buy an IFP card?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No.  I requested from the committee, I wanted to know from this committee if I was allowed to ask any questions.

MR PANDAY: And what did this committee say to you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: They said I had permission to ask questions.

MR PANDAY: Now eventually were you part of the IFP committee or not?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I refused because I wanted to know about the benefits.  I wanted to know if this committee was going to help me as a person who was coming from jail, if this committee was going to support me, get a job for me, or give me money to buy some clothes.  I realised that they were not going to do that for me and I told them that I was jailed because I was involved in a housebreaking because I needed money to support myself.  I told them that I was not to join the committee because there was nothing to gain for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, I don't want to interfere with the manner in which you propose to lead your evidence-in-chief, but I would also hasten to say, we would appreciate if you can get to the crux of the matter which basically involves issues which happened on or about September/November in or around Virginia Airport, next to Shayamoya.  As I read the affidavit I think the issues which impinge on the testimony that goes to support Mr Dlamini's application for amnesty would commence at least from paragraph 9 and more pointedly at paragraph 10.  I hope I have made things easier for you.  You don't need to give us any other background evidence.  Let's get to the point.

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.  Mr Ntshetha, after you had left hospital and went to live in Dlamersi, according to your statement, you mentioned that you joined, or went to work on a farm.  Is that correct?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: And did you remain on that farm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes I remained there on the farm.

MR PANDAY: For how long?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: About 3 to 4 months.

MR PANDAY: And what happened after that?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: As we would, after getting our wages, we would go to the shops, I met my brother Mashinela.

MR PANDAY: After meeting Mashinela, did you remain on the farm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: After meeting with him, I remained there on the farm up until such time I met with the co-accused, the one just behind me.  I asked them as to where they were staying and they wanted to know my background.  I told them and they also told me that they belonged to a certain organisation and I told them that I was so glad to see them and I would go on and stay with them.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, can you explain to us how you came to meet the co-accused?

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think that's very important.  He'd met them and he went to stay with them now, but what I would like to know how many of them were staying together and who these people were and to which organisation they belonged.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: They were ANC members.

ADV DE JAGER: How many were they?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: There were less then 16.

ADV DE JAGER: How many adults and how many children?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Two children.  My brother's child and there were two children and there were two adults, Mdo and Sepo Nduli.

ADV DE JAGER: So only 4 and 5 together with you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: There were others, I'm just counting the people who were at least adults, though there were also other people.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't counted adults only, you've included 2 children, one of them was your brother's.  We don't understand what you mean by proper adults.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am trying to say they were adults because they were even older than myself and the others were actually younger than them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sinangwenye, we just want you to give us the number of people that you joined and you stayed together, even if they were adults or children, just give us the number.  If you cannot give us that number, you can just tell us straight that you are not able to tell us the number.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: There were about 20 at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: In that number, 20 people, does that include the 2 children that you have told us about?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I include the children also.

CHAIRPERSON: You will remember that when you started testifying here, you said at the time you met with Mdo and Sepo, the group of people that you joined was not more than 16.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, the number came to 16 when I was there.  Other came and they found me there in the group.

CHAIRPERSON: Just start afresh with your testimony.  When you first joined or when you first saw Sepo Nduli and Mdo Dlamini, the group that you joined, how big was the group?  You have told us that it was not more than 16, are you still saying so?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: At the time there were 20.

CHAIRPERSON: Go on.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, can you recall when you joined this group, what year?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was in 1990.

MR PANDAY: And approximately which month did you join them?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was the 2nd month of the year, if I'm not mistaken.

MR PANDAY: And you mentioned in paragraph 10 of your statement that you went to a place near Virginia Airport, leaving Shamahoya area and the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: That must be a mistake, it must be Shayamoya.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: What about Shayamoya?

MR PANDAY: Is it correct that you had left Shayamoya and the IFP?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, but I wasn't staying there, I was in the area that was owned by the IFP.  I can say that I was among them, though I was not staying there at Shayamoya, I was just working on a farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that farm in Shayamoya, or next to Shayamoya?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was next to Shayamoya.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we understand that, you may pass, I think we've actually traversed paragraph 10, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Mr Ntshetha, the community you now joined, or the group you now joined, did they belong to any party?

CHAIRPERSON: He's already evidenced to that Mr Panday, they belonged to the ANC.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, after joining the group of people, what position did you hold with this group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I started as an ordinary member.  After Mdo's death, there was a suggestion as Moses was working together with Basil in solving some other problems, they decided to co-opt me.  They said I must be the owner because they said I'm in a position to solve a lot of problems and try and protect our community, to avoid the people from coming in and doing whatever they want in that area.

MR PANDAY: When you refer to the people coming in and doing what they want, what people do you refer to, Mr Ntshetha?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am talking about the people from Shayamoya.

MR PANDAY: Is that the IFP people you refer to?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now, is it therefore correct that the group you now joined is the ANC group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, if you could just explain as to what do you mean that you were the owner of the group?