Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm not explaining myself very well. This question had been asked previously and I would like to repeat my answer. I've said that if you work on an interdepartmental basis there are various cultures and terminologies but if you work in your own department and these directives and orders these are purely operational directives. This is a completely different facet you are referring to. If the Defence Force should go to the State Security Council with this proposal you mentioned I can understand that because of the milieu of interdepartmental dependency that they won't work on this basis because this was compiled, there should be a cordon established. This was the guideline for the commanding officer to tell him how to act.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) a document internal to the SADF, but surely the principle should apply equally. This is an instruction which is accepted by the State Security Council to be implemented both by the South African police and by the South African Defence Force. Both of them.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Which one are you referring?

MR VAN ZYL: The intimidators should be neutralised by formal and informal policing.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Are you referring to "N"?

MR VAN ZYL: I am referring to document "N" of the State Security Council.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: That's exactly what I've said

MR VAN ZYL: No, I've not finished my question. I'm saying that came through to the State Security Council via the SADF. The principles in respect of clarity and simplicity particularly, and I draw your attention to particularly the phrase that says: "expressions that could convey different meanings to different people must be avoided." Now this is coming into a State Security Council where this instruction is being acted upon by both the South African defence force and the South African police. South African police are different people, should you not avoid using expressions that are capable of being misinterpreted by the South African police, if you are submitting a document to the State Security Council?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman this is a very difficult question to answer. I've tried to answer it, I'm going to try again. We are busy with small technical details now. And this has no relationship with this whole matter. The one is operational orders issued departmentally. If it came from a department like the Defence Force and it had to go up to the State Security Council where there were other departments and other colleagues possibly other terminologies would have been used because it had to fit into a specific milieu. I don't know about the police. I did not act or work with them. But I think the terminology here would have meant the same to the police and to the Defence Force. Probably that's why they used the terminology. But to give you an answer as to the intentions of the person who gave these instructions, it's impossible for me to say.

MR VAN ZYL: The Minister of law and order Adriaan Vlok has conceded and it's in the documentation that's been provided to you that in instances where such orders or such proposals came to the State Security Council and were subsequently approved he was, he conceded that he was negligent in not, and the words he used is: "gekwerie". He was questioned, he did not question, how they should be interpreted. Would you not say that in a structure like the State Security Council, given the influence that it carried amongst members of the security forces, one should be extremely careful and cautious about the use of words employed and approved at the State Security Council?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I would have not interpreted this word wrongly.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) it's not whether you General Malan misinterpreted it. If it could be misinterpreted by others? And this was the testimony given by Minister Vlok. He was negligent in not querying the use of words which could be misinterpreted.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I'm glad you are referring to what Mr Vlok has said. He's speaking on behalf of the police. I have no problem if he speaks on behalf of his department and I agree with you perhaps one should look at a better way determining these words.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) why is it that if one wants to convey authorisation for purely lawful actions in the State Security Council, and it's quite clear what is lawful and what is unlawful, why is it that what is lawful is not spelt out? When we want to talk about neutralisation why doesn't the State Security Council say: "detain, arrest, restrict, imprison"? Why is it that words that are at least capable of misinterpretation being used? Would you not concede that, that is negligent?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I want to put it in this way. When using certain words if they had different interpretation it could have been necessary to do it like you say. There was a certain instance and we perused a certain document it was sent back and it was said no this was not what we meant. We meant something differently. And if it was unlawful activities it should not be covered up. It should be put straight forward. At the State Security Council we had the best legal aid we had available. The whole department of justice for example through his director general. And if I understand correctly what you've asked me they were the people and it was their field and they said this word had the following implications. I'm not trying to pass the buck. But there were various experts in the State Security Council.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct)of justice to draw that to your attention if these words were capable of misinterpretation?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I want to put it like this. This aspect would have been discussed and while discussing this, mention would have been made of the intentions. If the intentions were illegal the department of justice or the D.J. would have said: "No, you can't do that." During these discussions it would have happened that the police would have give their interpretation to "neutralising." The Defence Force would give their meaning they attach to this word and it would have gone down the channels like that. If the Minister of law and order said the police could have interpreted it wrongly I accept that.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) a further question. Did it ever come to your attention while you were head of the South African Defence Force that or did you ever suspect that activists were

MR MARITZ: No, no, Mr Chairman. This type of double barrelled question doesn't work.

MR LYSTER: Ask it (...indistinct)

MR VAN ZYL: Did you ever, did it ever come to your attention as head of the South African Defence Force that any members of the South African defence force were engaging in unlawful activities? And by that I mean the killing of political opponents?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: The killing of what?

MR VAN ZYL: Political opponents. Did it ever come to your attention?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Not that I can recall.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) or Minister of Defence?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I want to answer this question as follows. Not that I know of but if it should have happened the judicial system would have taken the necessary steps to a certain legal action against the people who acted unlawfully. And the judicial process would have taken it's course. In South Africa the regiment of discipline would have been applied.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) second part of that. Did you ever suspect that members of the South African Defence Force or security forces were involved in illegal activity?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: In?

MR VAN ZYL: In illegal activity?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Illegal?

MR VAN ZYL: In and by that I mean the killing of political opponents.