Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

MR MVELASE: I was shocked and suddenly I heard this gunshot and he had already shot at the woman.  And I must highlight the fact that that was not part of the plan or the intention, we did not have that intention to kill.

ADV SIGODI: Where was Mr Kanyele on this day?

MR MVELASE: We had left him at Dube.

ADV SIGODI: In other words, he comes up with the idea and plan and then when you actually go to do the robbery he is not there.

MR MVELASE: He had already indicated to us and showed us Sampson Manqele, that is why he did not have to be present.

ADV SIGODI: Why didn't he come?

MR MVELASE: I have no idea why.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, did you stand to gain  anything personally from what you attempted that particular day?

MR MVELASE: Wiseman would have been the one to administer that as to whether I benefit from this or not, it lay entirely in his discretion, but how he was to further the mission.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, I want to ask him certain questions about a letter to be found on page 31 of the bundle.  I think it only fair that I draw your attention to that.

MR CLAASSEN: I've seen the letter, Mr Chair, I believe it's in the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are aware of the letter?  Okay.
	Do you, or did you live at the time in the Province of Gauteng, as it is known now?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Katha Ndlovo?  He is the secretary, the Provincial Youth Secretary of the IFP?

MR MVELASE: Yes, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he know you?

MR MVELASE: I don't know whether he knows me or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Peter Magwasa, IFP Regional Office?

MR MVELASE: You mean Peter Magwasa?  No, I don't remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a card-carrying member of the IFP?

MR MVELASE: I did not have a card.

CHAIRPERSON: Then how did you obtain membership?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry just to clarify, I don't think we have quite the same as the interpreter.  Can you just ask him again if he was a card-carrying member of the IFP.
	Were you a card-carrying member of the IFP?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a card-carrying member of the IFP?

MR MVELASE: Not now, I don't have any card now, it got lost when I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a card-carrying member of the IFP?

MR MVELASE: As for now I don't have the card anymore, it has since disappeared.  It got lost, in other words, when I was arrested or when I got arrested.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me, how was your target identified when you were planning this?  How did you identify your target?

MR MVELASE: The person who was enlightened about the place we were going to was Sampson Manqele, he was the one who had a better understanding of this whole matter.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but who had the inside information as to who would be carrying the money and from where, at what time and all that, who brought that information to you?

MR MVELASE: Wiseman Kanyele had that information.

ADV SIGODI: So what did he tell you about this lady?

MR MVELASE: He told us that this lady often goes to the bank to fetch some money.

ADV SIGODI: Did he say where she worked?

MR MVELASE: Yes, he did explain.

ADV SIGODI: What did he say?

MR MVELASE: He said this lady works in Parktown North, although I don't quite remember the details as to where she was working.

ADV SIGODI: Did he tell you how he got that information about her?

MR MVELASE: No, I don't remember him saying that much.

CHAIRPERSON: You know I Mr Mvelase, I ...(end of Side A of tape)... in which he states that he doesn't know you, he brings into question your membership of the IFP.  What have you got to say about it?

MR MVELASE: No, I don't necessarily dispute that or disagree with him in that regard because it's quite a number of us as are members of the IFP, so he will not know each and every member of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me read what he says
"I, Katha Ndlovo, Provincial Youth Secretary of the IFP and Peter Magwasa, IFP Regional Offices have investigated the matter.  The IFP Dube Hostel branch ...(indistinct) Mr Petrus Hlongwane, Mr Khumalo and Induna, Mr Zibokakwe Xaba, said they don't know these people (which includes you).  We, as IFP leaders, we don't send people out to act  on crime and take money of the people, we believe in non-violent strategy.  We also believe in a peaceful solution.  Our policy, as a party, is open to everyone and based on peaceful manner.
		It is signed by Mr Ndlovo."
He is speaking about the following:
Mr Kanyele, Mr Mvelase - that's you Manqele, Sigudu and Mzolo.  Have you got any comment about that?

MR MVELASE: This is why I said to you we are quite many in IFP, so he would not know each and every member in the IFP organisation.  I don't think if you were to ask him that question he will be able to identify each and every member of the IFP and I wonder if you  canvassed that with him.

CHAIRPERSON: You wonder what?

MR MVELASE: Were they ever asked as to whether they are aware of all the members of IFP in the Dube Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they were asked about you six or five, you five people.  They were specifically asked about them and that's why this letter was written.  It includes you.  Have you got any comments?  You asked if he was canvassed.  He was asked and it appears that they made a specific enquiry and investigation about your membership with the others and that is what they wrote to the TRC.

MR MVELASE: I maintain the fact that he will not know all of us.  In fact, all of the IFP members will not know each and every individual.  I know that what we did was not the policy or did not conform with the policy of the IFP.  This is why we are here to ask for amnesty.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Mvelase, you told us that you were a card-carrying member of the IFP.  If you are a card carrying member of the IFP, presumably your name must appear on some record of membership for IFP, and there would be no difficulty in the leaders checking from their records and finding out whether or not you are a member of IFP, don't you agree?

MR MVELASE: Well their records, I would like to question their records.  They date way back to which year?  The list of the members of the IFP, their records containing the members of the IFP, dates, way back to which year?

ADV SIGODI: Alright, when were you given your card?

MR MVELASE: I got my card in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Hlongwane?

MR MVELASE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he stay in the Dube Hostel?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It's the same hostel you say you were staying, and for which you were robbing people to arm the residents of that hostel?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane will know if you were a member of the IFP, not so?

MR MVELASE: He won't know all of us including Hlongwane himself, he won't know all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying that you have so many IFP members in that hostel that people won't be able to say who are IFP members or are not?

MR MVELASE: Well, there are people who are popular and well-known.  Like myself, an ordinary person, who did not feature prominently some activities in the past, who would not be known as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this your first notorious activity?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: How long had you been staying at the hostel before you committed this crime?

MR MVELASE: I arrived at the hostel in 1990, to the day of this incident in 1993 on the 30th.

ADV SIGODI: Were you employed at this time?

MR MVELASE: I had a lot of temporary jobs.

ADV SIGODI: I heard you when you were asked what would you have done differently and your answer was, when you were asked by your own legal representative, I heard you say that you would try to get more temporary jobs.  What difference would it have made to the robbery if you did not have a temporary job?