Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: It is like that Mr Chairperson.  After Mrs Winnie Mandela's house and clinic were burnt, as I have already explained that I had contacts, I tried to investigate as to whether who was responsible for burning of that property.
	Not that it was from the security branch, I was trying to help the investigator of the case who was handling the the docket.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How far did you go with or let me put it this way, what did the investigations reveal with regard to possible culprits?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: According to my knowledge the we were not successful to find the suspects and there were no people who were arrested.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is Brandfort from Bloemfontein.

MR STANDER: If I might answer this question, its about 55 five kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  So it would take you about half an hour to drive?

MR STANDER: That is so Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you go there in the morning?  You said after tea, what time would that be?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: It would happen that the my time of departure would vary at times it would be 9 o'clock quarter past nine, half past nine in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: And your time of return?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: Mainly I would arrive in Bloemfontein half past three quarter to four?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an office in Brandfort?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: Yes, Chairperson, there was an office inside the police station which which was part of the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you tapped telephones, Mrs Mandela's telephones?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That would have been from about 10 o'clock clock in the morning till 3 o'clock in the afternoon what about the rest of the day?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: My work entailed tapping the phones.  There is cap to connect the cassette or I would listen to the cassette and translate it and write down.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the phones recorded when you were not there?   Was there a machine it recorded everything that was said?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would spend most of your time listening to cassettes?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, just arising out of that let's clear one point up if I may.
	You say you monitored Mrs Mandela's telephone calls and translated them.

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct Sir, because at times they would speak Xhosa at times.  In many instances they would speak English but in many instances they would speak Xhosa.

MR BRINK: ...[inaudible]

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: Yes, Sir.

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR VISSER: Just one question Mr Chairman on this oath. Mr Ramosoeu did you - is your understanding of the oath that you took when you went to the security branch ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I can see that this is going to be leading.   I think the question ought not to be leading.  I think what Mr What Mr Mr Visser can ask is what was his understanding, not to suggest an understanding to to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us hear the question before we decide whether its leading or not.  Was it leading Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question.  	You told this Committee that your oath concerns a secrecy about documentation is that correct?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct Sir.

MR VISSER: Did you understand your oath also to entail that it would prohibit you from giving evidence concerning your work in a Court of Law?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: If it was an evidence which is related to my work, I will not be able to disclose .

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should take a short adjournment at this stage if we're going on till 5 o'clock.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Bester, are you a former member of the South African police?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And when you left the police was your rank that of superintendent?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: When did you join the police?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: On the 31st of January 1969.

MR VISSER: And did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Yes, on the 11th of April.

MR VISSER: Prior to your coming here ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: The witness said the 11th of April 1989.
	Mr Bester, before the 11th of April 1989, where were you then?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Since 1985 until I joined the security police or security branch I was doing duty there but I resorted under the detective branch of Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Where did you do your duty?  Where were you, into which section were you divided?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: I worked at the security branch.

MR VISSER: And your present position is?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: At present I am no longer with the police but at the Technikon.

MR VISSER: So you're working at the Technikon?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: The fact that you were working at the security branch, for all purposes, does that mean that you were part of the security branch ?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: No, the reason was that I was doing investigative work at the security branch, I investigated cases.

MR VISSER: In other words you didn't do normal security work?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: No.

MR VISSER: You were a detective?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: You became aware of the fact that you are being involved in these matters by the applicants, that's in certain incidents.  The first being that in Brandfort you had something to do with special duties as members of the security branch stationed in Brandfort during e'85/'86?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: All that I did at Brandfort at that stage is if there were criminal cases I had to investigate those cases at Brandfort.

MR VISSER: So you were not stationed there?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: No, I was never stationed there.

MR VISSER: Was a unit stationed at Brandfort which consisted of Warrant Officer Ramosoeu, yourself, Warrant Officer Cronje, Warrant Officer Swanepoel, Constable Tax and Constable Ngo?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: No, Tax and I worked together.  Tax did investigative work with me and for the record he is Masoloane.

MR VISSER: Can you spell that for us please?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: M-a-s-o-l-o-a-n-e, I think that is the correct spelling.

MR VISSER: did you have anything to do with groups known as the: "Eagles Club" or the: "Anti Comrades Club" or the "Three Millions Gang"?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: No, I had nothing to do with them.

MR VISSER: It has been said by Mr Ngo that on a certain day you were present in the evening when Warrant Officer Ramosoeu spoke to two people, a certain Pitso Pelo and a certain Mr Ntsobole Mahlonja.  We have already spelt it before.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: No, I never worked ever with him in Brandfort.  I never drove in any vehicle with him.  The people who are being mentioned sound familiar but I did not know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this?

MR VISSER: Page 42 bundle A Mr Chairman, the last paragraph.  It starts with the words during 1986.
	If it - you have answered a section of the question but I just want to put it to you that if anybody implies or says that you and Warrant Officer Ramosoeu together with Mr Ngo were between or met people between Bultfontein and Hoopstad in the evening?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That's a lie, it cannot be true.

MR VISSER: Do you know anything about a case or an incident where Mr Ramosoeu tried to bribe someone or more people to kill a person called Katoy?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: I know nothing about that.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with the monitoring of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Bloemfontein?