Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it's Monday the 30th of November 1998.  It is a continuation of the Self Defence Unit applications from Thokoza.  The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record.  The appearances seems to the same as last week.  The Leader of Evidence is Advocate Steenkamp, and for the applicants this morning is Mr Mopedi.
	Mr Mopedi, are we dealing with the matter of Mr Mahlangu?

MR MOPEDI: That's correct, Mr Chairman, he is Thulani Mahlangu.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I be so rude as to interrupt here, just one or two household matters.  The first applicant's application appears on page 251.
	Just for the record, Mr Chairman, with your permission we will probably be starting today, just to indicate how the roll will develop.   We will probably be starting with Lusaka-B today and not being finished with Lusaka-A because a lot of these applicants are in custody.  Arrangements have been made by myself and other Members to make sure that they will be here probably on Tuesday and Wednesday.  As far as I know there is about six people which are in this position.  That's just to indicate that.
	I was also contacted this morning by Advocate Swanepoel from the Pretoria Bar, who indicated that he is under the instruction of Mr Koos van der Merwe of the Inkatha Freedom Party, to appear on behalf of a Mr Msizi and also that he has instructions to appear on behalf of certain victims.  He also indicated that he will attend this hearing from 9 o'clock onwards.  I'm not sure where he is but just for the sake of the record.  Apparently there is somebody on record now.  Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mahlangu, you are the applicant ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, just give us a minute, we just want to swear him in.
	Mr Mahlangu, are your full names Thulani Mahlangu?

THULANI MAHLANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down.   Mr Mopedi, you can carry on?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mahlangu, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

THULANI MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: You were also a member of a Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A, Thokoza, is that correct?

THULANI MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: When did you become a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A?

THULANI MAHLANGU: It was in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also involved in fighting with IFP members?

THULANI MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Are there specific incidents that you can remember now, in which you were involved in fighting members of the IFP?

THULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: You may proceed.

THULANI MAHLANGU: The first one is the one that refers to the Mkwaie incident.  I'm not quite sure of the date.  There were five men that we went to see in that area.  They were wearing red headbands, obviously members of Inkatha.
	We chased them.  Four of them fled and we managed to get hold of one.  He fled to Mkwaie, that is where we apprehended him and he was killed.

MR MOPEDI: Why have you decided to kill these   people?

THULANI MAHLANGU: These men as we indicated, were members of the IFP and I know that the community members knew that we were fighting the IFP at the time.  That is the reason that we chased him.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know the names of those five people that you have referred to?

THULANI MAHLANGU: I do not quite know the names of the others.  I knew only one whose name was Levesa.

MR MOPEDI: Was he known to you prior to the incident itself or did you start to know him after the incident?

THULANI MAHLANGU: I only knew him after the incident.  We just heard that his name is Levesa.

MR MOPEDI: When you chased these people, could you say with certainty that they were members of the IFP?

THULANI MAHLANGU: That is correct, we knew.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get clarity on this.  Levesa is the man who you killed?

THULANI MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Ma'm.
	Let us proceed to the next incident.

THULANI MAHLANGU: The second incident is the Mazibuko incident.  I was sitting with some of the SDU members and there came a message for Bonga Nkosi, a message to the effect that they were being attacked in their section and he requested help.  We then received a command from our commander, Mosa Msimango and we therefore went to the place to assist.

MR MOPEDI: What happened there?

THULANI MAHLANGU: After that we went to the place where we were summoned and on arrival there was fighting going on, a fighting which we joined.

MR MOPEDI: Could you state your role, what did you do there?  Were you armed?

THULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I was armed.  I also fired shots towards the people we were fighting.  That is what I did.  There was fighting going on and I was part of it.  I'm quite sure it is known that in a war situation there is fighting going on.

MR MOPEDI: These people that you were fighting, who were those people?

THULANI MAHLANGU: The people were the IFP members.

MR MOPEDI: You said you were armed and you fired some shots, is that correct?

THULANI MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: What type of firearm did you have in your possession at that time?

THULANI MAHLANGU: I was carrying an AK47.

MR MOPEDI: Did you kill anyone during the incident?

THULANI MAHLANGU: Honestly speaking, when a person is in a war situation it is very difficult to say whether you have killed a person or not because all shots were directed at the people that we were fighting.

MR MOPEDI: But you not excluding the possibility that you might have shot someone, injured someone or killed someone?

THULANI MAHLANGU: I would say that yes, some people may have got injured or died and some possibly may not have died or got injured.  It was not possible, I didn't have time to go around and verify that people were injured or had died.

MR MOPEDI: So those people that you shot at, do you know them?

THULANI MAHLANGU: No.

MR MOPEDI: So what you know is that you only shot at members of IFP, is that it?  Did I understand you correctly?

THULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, that is what I am saying, because I was fighting IFP members, I fired shots towards their direction.

ADV GCABASHE: Again just a matter of clarity, how did you identify them as IFP members?

THULANI MAHLANGU: It was known that only IFP members lived in that area.  It was also indicated in the map that was brought here last week, so that if a person was not a member of the IFP, one would not go there and therefore we had that knowledge.  They came to attack us in our area.

MR MOPEDI: Okay, let's got back to Mkwaie section where you have told this hearing that a person was killed there was ...(indistinct) Levesa.  I want to know specifically your role, the role that you in particular have played there.

THULANI MAHLANGU: Thank you.  The role that I played insofar as Levesa's death is that I chased him.  We used stones.  He was running away as we were chasing him. There were five of them and we only managed to apprehend Levesa and we only managed to apprehend Levesa, the rest fled.

MR MOPEDI: Were you not armed with your firearm?

THULANI MAHLANGU: No, I was not armed.

MR MOPEDI: So you took part in the killing of Levesa, and what did you do?  If you will be specific.

THULANI MAHLANGU: The role that I played is that I chased him and we finally apprehended him and he was killed.  That's the role that I played.  I also pelted him with stones after he was apprehended.  That is the role that I played.

MR MOPEDI: Is there any further incident that you'd like to mention, apart from the two that you have told us about?

THULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, there is the one incident at Mshayazafe.

MR MOPEDI: Proceed.