Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It was the general feelings amongst us the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Thank you.  Okay, that time after those major rallies, it came to be known amongst us that now that the youth had come to see the light, they have to fight to see this Venda going back to where it belongs.  So when it comes to the strategies that we used to employ, in trying to render this state ungovernable, we decided that as we have got so many obstacles that are making it impossible for us to be free as we have to see that people have to be redeemed from those chains that South Africa have made us suffer for a long time as such, we have to devise some strategies and such strategies were very, they were no, I mean, specific directives as to what has to be done.  As we were the youth ourselves, we felt the pressure mounting within us that the closest target which we can deal with, let's say it can be witches as such, so we started to hold meetings.  We used to hold meetings sometimes three times a week, maybe Sunday, Tuesday,. Thursday or Fridays.  So it used to be three times a week.  So the first meeting I remember we held.  May I carry on?

MR NDOU: Okay, let me try to assist you so that we can move faster.  You resided at Mahvunga location?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: Do you have a traditional leader at Mahvunga?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: And who is the traditional leader at Mahvunga?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: His name, I forget his name, he's got his Venda name, his name is Adam Mahvunga.

MR NDOU: Now this Adam Mahvunga, does he lead your village from within?  Does he reside at Mahvunga as well or does he reside elsewhere?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No.

MR NDOU: Where does he reside?  Does he reside at Mahvunga?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: In fact he resides at Mahvunga but he is a commuter.  By commuter I say he is the one who works in the Reef, he used to come back some times.

MR NDOU: Yes okay.  Now you say during that period your group of young people would gather and hold meetings, whereat you discussed certain issues affecting you as people?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: Right.  And I also understood you to be telling the Committee that during that period you had come to see the light, you had come to see that what you were getting and what you were involved in, in the independence of Venda, was not actually independence, so you wanted to free yourselves from this so-called independence so that you can go back to the original South Africa?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: Is that correct?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: What sort of discussions were you holding at these meetings when you held them with your peers?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: : What we expected, we expected a good life whereby we could get a free education; free health services and all the things that we have been promised as the new dispensation was to come around.

MR NDOU: Okay.  And who was Edward Mahvunga, if you could explain to the Committee so the Committee understands exactly, so that even when you get questions from the other side, the Committee understands what you are talking about.  Who was Edward Mahvunga.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Edward Mahvunga, he was a relative of Mr Adam Mahvunga, the headman.

MR NDOU: A relative in what sense?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I think they share the same grandfathers, as I can understand.  But I don't know whether it was an uncle or a grandfather, but I think there was relationship between the two.  ...(end of tape)

MR NDOU: Now what sort of role would you say Edward played in the community?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: He was just a commoner.

MR NDOU: I see.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: As I can motivate by this, he was a commoner in that if he was a distinguished person in the community, he could not have stopped us from having free political activities at the village as he did by confronting us.

MR NDOU: Okay, let's take it step by step.  What I've asked you is whether Edward Mahvunga had any significant role to play in the community, that's what I want you to give to the Committee.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No.

MR NDOU: Now, what sort of work did he do?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: He was a farmer, as I can say.

MR NDOU: What did he farm with?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: He used to farm onion.  He was farming onions and fruits.  He was not a cattle farmer, he was not a good farmer, he was not a stupid farmer.

MR NDOU: Okay.  Now when you held these meetings, did you have anything to do with him?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No not particularly.  What we have done that concerned him is when we touched the issue of doing away with the witches as we perceived them as obstacles that were making the then Venda government ...(indistinct) at the time, as we have stated the case of ritual murders and the likes.

CHAIRPERSON: You explain to us what you mean by that, or what you understood by that.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You say that there was a decision to kill the witches, wizards, why?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: In the rural villages it was different from urban areas.  In the rural areas we grew up with the belief that there are witches surrounding us.  They are people who have the power to practice supernatural powers that we cannot see by our naked eyes.

ADV DE JAGER: Just go slowly please, because this is very important what you are telling us and realise too that you should think carefully what you're saying because it's very important what you are telling us.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: You said, in our area we believed that there were?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We grew up in the belief that there are witches, those who have been endowed with supernatural powers.

MR NDOU: Who, specify who you are referring to?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The witches.

MR NDOU: Now you've explained to the Committee that you grew up believing, from what you learned, that they were practising witchcraft.  Now I want you to explain to the Committee who you are talking about.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I am talking about the witches, those we have said we have to eliminate.

ADV DE JAGER: But give us the names of one or two or whoever.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: One such a witch was Mutshinya Tshinakaho, she was one of the witches which were pointed out.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you just spell that for us please?

MR NDOU: Yes.  T - S - H - I - N - A - K - A - H - O
Mutshinya is  M - U - T - S - H - I - N - Y - A.

MR NDOU: Now who else are you talking about?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: One was Miss Muravha.

MR NDOU: Muravha is M - U - R - A - V - H - A

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you people want to kill these people?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Our main aim was not to kill these people, we just wanted to get rid of those witches, whether by banishment or just by trying to make them confess to their evil deeds, so that we can be aware of what is going on around us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: After pinpointing those people ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But why did you want to get rid of them?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: There used to be a time when people were crying "So-and-so has bewitched so-and-so, so-and-so has got Zombies also" so those talks they were the ones that made us to wonder, what are they talking about, what is happening, what can be the cause, what can be done?  So those were the questions we asked ourselves first.

CHAIRPERSON: What has that got to do with your freedoms of free medical care and free education?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It came to that because those witches, they were believed to have strange powers because we used to believe that those witches, they have got everything.  That's how we used to understand things about the witches.  They were super humans.

CHAIRPERSON: So?