Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chair I'm not sure that that was howhis legal representative understood it.  I take note of that. Mr Chairman I may however also want to place on record that asfar as the Attorney-General is concerned, as we understand it,their view is that they refuse their witnesses leave to testifyeven of their own accord at these hearings.  As I understand it,they have an agreement with the specific witnesses and the witnesseswould breach the agreement if they testify here.   I just wantto put that on record as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR MEINTJIES: Chair should I reply to my learned friend'sargument?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what do you have to say?

MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chair the matter is or was right atthe beginning of this hearing it was placed before the Committee,at that time the Committee said that I will be allowed to askquestions even if the Committee might want to then determine thatthe witnesses need not be called.   My
3. client /...
MR MEINTJIES 598 ADDRESS
client will in future most likely apply for amnesty to this
Commission and it is therefore important for my client that shouldthere be any testimony given before the Committee which wouldbe to his disadvantage, that it must be cleared out in this hearing.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEINTJIES

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have no re-examination of thiswitness?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe you have no further questions?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I am calling one of the...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Du Plessis are you calling any furtherwitnesses on this aspect of the matter?

MR DU PLESSIS: : I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I'm not callingany further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Yes Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : I am then calling a witness Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman may I just be given an indulgence there is somethingthat has been raised with me here?
BEAUTY NTULI (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: The deceased, Pete Ntuli, what was he to you?

ANSWER: My husband.

<UNKNOWN>: How were you married?

ANSWER: Yes we were.

<UNKNOWN>: How were you married?

ANSWER: Customary marriage.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it so that Mr Ntuli had more than one wives?

ANSWER: Yes that is true.
3.

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR MPSHE 599 B NTULI

<UNKNOWN>: How many wives did he have?

ANSWER: Five.

<UNKNOWN>: What is your ranking in that line?

ANSWER: I'm his first wife.

<UNKNOWN>: Where are the other wives?

ANSWER: They are just behind Mr Mpshe.

<UNKNOWN>: The marriage between yourself and Mr Ntuliand the other four wives, is it recognised in terms of the Kwandabele'sas a valid marriage?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you have children with Mr Ntuli, yourself?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: How many?

ANSWER: One.

<UNKNOWN>: How old is that child?

ANSWER: Twenty years old, 12 years old.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it a girl or a boy?

ANSWER: A boy.

<UNKNOWN>: Is he school-going?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: ...his education?

ANSWER: My father.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: No I'm not.

<UNKNOWN>: ...do for a living?

ANSWER: I'm not doing anything.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it correct that you have been selected bythe other wives to represent them in this hearing?

ANSWER: Yes it's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Can we have the name of the child for therecord?
3. MR /...
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MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: What is the name of your child?

ANSWER: (Indistinct) Ntuli.

<UNKNOWN>: Did Mr Ntuli have children by the other fourwives?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: How many in all are they?

ANSWER: 12 of them.

<UNKNOWN>: With your child?

ANSWER: Including my child, 12.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you able to tell us the names of the 11children?

ANSWER: Yes I can.

<UNKNOWN>: Tell us the name and the age.

ANSWER: Kenneth, I can't tell his age.   Snyman(?) Emily. Martini Mercy.   I'm not sure about their age.   (Indistinct)1991, 93 Figele, 1993 Viso, 1984, Mike 1986, Mike 84, Gugu 86.

CHAIRPERSON: ...a piece of paper and hand it in.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : I will do so Mr Chairman I was doing that inorder to avoid...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe do you know whether the R&Ror HRV Committee furnished the widows with forms to complete inorder to be classified as victims?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chair is it said that do I know whetherthey have been furnished?

UNKNOWN: Yes, and have they been completed?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : No I don't know Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Because that could save a lot of time ifit's
3. been /...
MR MPSHE 601 D NTULI
been done.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : It may well be so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed Mr Mpshe.
MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: You say Nogutala you were seated here whenevidence was given by applicants concerning your husband?

ANSWER: Yes I was here.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you feel about that evidence?

ANSWER: I'm feeling bad, I'm not feeling okay, I haveone question which I want to ask Mr Cronje.   Who gave him theinstruction to kill my husband?

<UNKNOWN>: ...give you that information.   The applicants,the two of them approached this Committee to ask that they bepardoned for what they have done.   What would your attitude beto that?

ANSWER: I personally I cannot forgive them.

<UNKNOWN>: What is the feeling of the other four wiveswith whom you consulted today?

ANSWER: Same feeling.

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Ntuli you have had, let me put it thisway, you do read newspapers and watch TV, not so?

ANSWER: Yes I do read newspapers and I do watch television.

<UNKNOWN>: I assume that you know about this Truth &Reconciliation Commission that is going on, of which Amnesty ispart thereof?

ANSWER: Yes I heard.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know that this is done by the Governmentto foster or to promote reconciliation in the country?

ANSWER: Yes I do know that.

<UNKNOWN>: What is your attitude about this reconciliation
3. process /...
MR DU PLESSIS 602 D NTULI
process?

ANSWER: I don't have any comment on that one.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you believe in reconciliation Mrs Ntuli?

ANSWER: Yes I do believe.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   I have one questionfor the witness.   When the applicants started with these applications,they stated...(end of side 1)...who suffered on both sides ofthe conflicts of South Africa in the past.  Do you accept whatthey say or what is your reaction thereto?

ANSWER: I do accept that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That will be all Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe before we close this case or thisapplication, can you now inform us whether the implicated personsreceived their notices, when they received it, were they timeousin order to be here and what is the position with the applicationof Joe Verster.   Was he informed or what is the position?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, Iwill repeat what I said yesterday as well as this morning.   Theforms have gone out, these are signed by a Commissioner and Istated very clearly yesterday that I do not have with me the returnof service to that effect.   I said it further that these maybe with me today and this morning when this issue was reopened,I stated it very categorically that at 06:15 this morning I contactedthe head of investigation, Advocate Andre Steenkamp and askedhim about the progress
3b made /...
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made, to which he said he has served some but he is still
busy with some but he is going to come to me and meet me herethis morning and give me those which he has already served.  During the tea-break I contacted him again and he said to me heis on his way coming down this way and he will make sure he ishere by lunch time.   I have not seen him up until now.   No 2,inasfar as the person mentioned by the Member of the Committee,Mr Joe Verster, I have just checked my list, he's not one of thosewho is informed.