Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

JIMMY MBANE: It was in the house.  It was kept under guard all the time.

MR B WILLIAMS: And where was this house?

JIMMY MBANE: Whilst we were at KTC it was in the house and same with Guguletu.

MR B WILLIAMS: Right, now I take it that Captain Bellingan being concerned about the weaponry that you had, even on his own evidence, would have asked you regularly, Jimmy are you making sure you that you have those weapons under control, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes he used to ask me and I used to assure him that they are still safe.  He did this whenever we made contact and I told him that they are kept safe under Shakes' supervision.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do I understand your evidence to be then that on the morning of the 3rd March 1996 that was the morning that you distributed these weapons for the first time to the group to be utilised in that particular operation.  Is that what happened?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, not everyone, because we took two the previous night to hide and I gave the rest of the ammunition in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you tell us about shooting at some other vehicle before then?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes we had shot before, but he was not asking me about that.

CHAIRPERSON: He was, he was asking you whether this was the first time you distributed the weapons.  But you had used them before, hadn't you?

MR B WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, in fact Mr Mbane, does understand me correctly.  I was asking the first time that the weapons were distributed for that operation.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand that, I understood you were asking whether this was the first time the weapons had been distributed  was for that operation.

MR B WILLIAMS: My apologies, Mr Chairperson.
	So Mr Mbane, prior to that of course you had distributed the weapons.  If I understand your evidence correctly, prior to that you had distributed the weapons for training, for exercises, but that these would be gathered again and stored in the trunk.  Is that what you're saying, is that your evidence?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: And all this time, Captain Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg would have been aware of this not so?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct sir, they were aware.

MR B WILLIAMS: Would you agree that the simplest way for them to extract the teeth from this operation would have been to say "Jimmy bring the trunk to us today"?  Do you agree, that they could have stopped the operation by taking control of the trunk of weapons if they wanted to?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.  If they wanted to do so they would have done so.

MR B WILLIAMS: But it is quite evident that they were planning to respond offensively to the planned ambush by the group am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: In other words what I'm saying is that not only had they anticipated a firefight, they wanted a firefight?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: For your own account, you say today, that you realised that you were leading those men to their deaths on that morning, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: You realised that, prior to leaving wherever you left from in order to go to the scene not so?

JIMMY MBANE: I did not know before we went to this place it just surprised me and I got shocked to realise that I had led these people to their death because I was under the impression that we were going to be arrested.  When I realised that there was shooting it came quite as a surprise and therefore I was remorseful.

MR B WILLIAMS: For your own account, Mr Mbane, didn't you think that one way to prevent this group from carrying out their planned ambush to simply to retain control of the trunk of weapons.  You could do that not so?

JIMMY MBANE: My commanders were commanding me all the time.  If they instructed me to take the trunk and take it wherever I would have done so but no such instruction was issued.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you also saying to this Committee that there was no instruction or that their was no indication from Mr Bellingan when you reconnoitred the area the day before the incident that he was planning to arrest those individuals?

JIMMY MBANE: He never showed that he wanted to arrest them.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you saying to the Committee that you suspected that there was going to be a firefight and these individuals were going to be killed the day before already?

JIMMY MBANE: Let me tell you something, if they had no intentions to shoot these people because I was in possession of the trunk that would have just told me to get off the car and take the trunk and get away with them because I was having the trunk with me.  But it was clear that they wanted to shoot them.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you quite clear, if I could move off that point, are you quite clear on the fact that Captain Bellingan came down to Cape Town with you at the same time?

JIMMY MBANE: I am quite clear on that sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: And are you also quite clear that when you arrived in Cape Town this was the first time that your infiltration of this group in Cape Town had commenced?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have knowledge thereof, but it was the first time I infiltrated them.  Maybe they might have attempted here in Cape Town but I never got that information.

MR B WILLIAMS: So that when Mr Bellingan testifies that he had joined an already existing infiltration by yourself and Eric Maluleka, that is not correct?

JIMMY MBANE: No that is not the truth.  We left together for Cape Town until the completion of the operation.  We left him here and then followed at a later stage.

MR B WILLIAMS: When you arrived in Cape Town, you mentioned  that Liebenberg, Bellingan and a Colonel Peters were present at the briefing.  Do you recall precisely what the purpose of the infiltration would be, was it mentioned to you?

JIMMY MBANE: As I see it, but I'm not saying that this is a fact, but I think that the main intention was to have these people killed.  That's my opinion, I'm not saying it is so.

MR B WILLIAMS: In your experience as an Askari, was the main reason for your existence as an Askari, the elimination of groups of MK cadres?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: I think you mentioned that yourself as well in your affidavits, that that's what you were told your purpose was as a Vlakplaas Askari.

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Is there any reason for this Committee to believe that there was any other purpose to you infiltrating the Guguletu 7 group other than the fact that the intention was to kill them?

JIMMY MBANE: I, can you please repeat the question, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do you know any reason why this Committee should believe anything else other than that the reason for the infiltration of this group was to kill them?

JIMMY MBANE: There is no other reason.

MR B WILLIAMS: When Bellingan says that the sole purpose of this exercise was to gather intelligence that is only half the story not so?

JIMMY MBANE: How can that happen if he had given me AK47's the Tokorevs and the hand grenade?  How can I gather intelligence in that manner?

MR B WILLIAMS: In the time that you had infiltrated this group how soon after you had joined was it necessary for you to eliminate these other three informers that you talk about?  How soon after you had joined or infiltrated this group?  Can you give the Committee some idea?

JIMMY MBANE: I think three to four weeks, I'm not sure.

MR B WILLIAMS: Alright, so if you say that you had been involved in this infiltration for about two months prior to the operation happening, then it was sort of midway in the operation, or by midway in the operation that you had eliminated these other three informers as well, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: And that would take us approximately to the end of January 1996, more or less, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: It might be that period sir.