Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No I met them that side.

MS PATEL: You met them there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I went there alone.

MS PATEL: Okay and who else was present in Mtate's group when you got there besides Roger and Jabu?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If they were others they were not there at that house I met them.  At the house I met them it was Mtate, Roger and Jabu.

MS PATEL: Okay, so when the planning was done for these operations how was it decided who would go with whom?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The plan was there already, they needed an empower and during that time a lot of our people was at Sterkspruit, I was merely also dealing with the question of the training so there were no people to take care of that time and also there were no other operations to carry on because the area was readily classified by that I mean the area was so - the police would patrol the areas closer to Ficksburg, the areas of Zastron and the area - what is the other side of Sterkspruit?  It is Zastron, I think it's Lady Grey, so there was no need for other operations during those areas so I decided then to go and assist.

MS PATEL: I'm confused.  You decided to go across or Mr Mtate asked you to come across?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I said first we did have liaison and then secondly we agreed that I would go to assist him then I said after two weeks prior the attack I did go to Lesotho.

MS PATEL: Okay and you said the reason you went over there was a planning place already and they needed manpower, yet you didn't take any members from your armed unit from Sterkspruit across to Lesotho, whoever assisted you in the operations were people who were there already?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I didn't take any member, he needed my involvement, he needed a second person who would command another unit.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can I just ask, Roger and Jabu are code-names?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MS PATEL: You don't know their proper names?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No I don't know.

MS PATEL: They're not any of the other applicants who are present here today?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They are not here.

MS PATEL: Okay, alright.  You got Mtate at the planning place.  What did he say to you in terms of the plan, what information was given to you exactly?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's the one I mentioned already, that of those houses there were the first line of defence meaning that those houses were occupied by security personnel.

MS PATEL: Can I just stop you there for a second, did he say that all houses in that street were occupied by security personnel or were specific houses targeted?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well, as a military personnel myself from my general understanding would be that the houses that will be manned to the border area, those houses would act as a first line of defence so such houses will be occupied by security personnel as it was the case after all in South Africa.  I think it was generally that all parts of South Africa which bordered with other countries, such houses will be occupied by security personnel, that was my general belief, as a security personnel.

MS PATEL: Okay, what did you base that general belief on?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As I see it, it's the first line of defence, it means if there will be any launch, attack against South Africa, such people have to go through such places, so such people have to have a knowledge of a security, it would have to be knowledge of measures to take in such incidents so such people become security personnel.

MS PATEL: And this is an assumption that you are making, this wasn't based on any reconnoitring that you would have done of the area, it's not based on any other independent information that you would - I 'm just trying to establish what your source was?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well it doesn't need to be based on anything, it means that if I was a general, or I was a person to plan for South African Defence that's what I will do, that was what was happening in South Africa after all.

MS PATEL: So you're saying basically that you assumed that because that was the first line of houses on that border area that that would be occupied by security personnel?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I did assume but in this case as I was assuming, the person who had the better information for that was Mtate not myself, I was not there at Lesotho.

MS PATEL: Sorry, would you grant me a moment please?  Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.
	Mrs Pienaar, is there anything you would like to specifically ask the applicant?  I will also give you an opportunity at a later stage if you would like to testify?

MRS PIENAAR: What I would just like to say is that I don't understand that two houses were attacked because on that specific evening only one house was attacked and that was ours and I would also like to say that next to the fence there are no police houses or security houses and they were all in town area and my house was a private house it was not a police house, it was our own property so all the police houses are further inland, in the town area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolo, I would just want to put what Mrs Pienaar had informed us now to you for your comment.  Mrs Pienaar indicates there was only one house that was attacked at that time in Ficksburg.  Have you got any comment on that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I said after all from my application that we attacked more than one house, that is meaning to say two houses and the house mentioned in this paper was the one which was attacked by unit of Mtate and we also as I mentioned that the time we were retreating from the other side of the bridge I did launch a grenade launch and then it did explode.  We don't know whether from the house or whether it hit anything but it did explode when it touched the ground and after it was very dark at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not sure about the fact of how many houses were damaged but there were these attacks that were launched?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: From the grenade launch?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the second aspect that Mrs Pienaar has referred to is that there were no police houses as she had put it in that first group of houses but that the police houses only started further down, further into the block.  Have you got any comment on that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Now I will have it.  Firstly from my assumptions of that first, the houses closer to the border area generally would be security personnel and then secondly the information I had was that those houses we went to attack were occupied by security personnel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Pienaar is it the only aspect which you wanted to say?

MRS PIENAAR: Yes at this moment, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, was there anything further that you wanted to say?

MS PATEL: Thank you, just a few aspects I'd like clarity on, Honourable Chairperson.  I'm sorry Mr Dolo, I didn't catch your earlier evidence.  Did you say that - sorry, how many other houses in that street do you say you attacked besides which you don't know might have been effected by the grenade that was launched once you reached the bridge?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We attacked two houses, one which is mentioned and then the second one.

MS PATEL: Okay, is that the third house from the left hand side that you refer to, is that the third house from Mrs Pienaar's house?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think so.

MS PATEL: Okay and can you give us more details as to how that house was attacked?