Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was next to my side.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you had the pipe shotgun with you always?  Why?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because I did not want to leave it in the vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why not?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because I thought that maybe there would be conflict if the vehicles were stopped.

MS VAN DER WALT: In other words you were ready?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I was ready.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave you the instruction to keep the pipe shotgun with you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No one gave me the instruction, I took it by myself.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you could have left it in the vehicle?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I could have.

MS VAN DER WALT: If there wasn't an instruction to take it with you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There wasn't an instruction to take it with me.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you received the order, you were ready?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You got the order, according to you, there were no such discussions beforehand and here Visser, that is Andre Visser ...

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Etienne Visser.

MS VAN DER WALT: Etienne Visser,  he was a junior?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: We had the same rank.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you know the command structure of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you know that you must receive instructions from a senior, and here a person comes to you with the same rank as you and you do or receive an instruction from him?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I only executed the instruction that he gave me, because he received it from his senior.

MS VAN DER WALT: But how do you know that, that is what bothers me from your evidence, how do you know that he received that instruction?  How do you know that he did not out of his own, decided that you and him were going to shoot the people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Well, I did not doubt him.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you cannot say that you received an instruction from a senior?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Well, that is how I saw it, I received it from him and he received it again from his seniors.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you know that you must receive instructions from, you were in the Defence Force?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You know the command structure?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you receive an instruction of such a serious nature, if your evidence is correct, before that incident, there was not an instruction, then it means that you within a few seconds, you received an order from someone with the same rank as you, you took it and killed people  without the instruction from a senior rank person?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Well, the instruction came from a senior.  I only executed the order that was conveyed to me by a senior person.

MS VAN DER WALT: How do you know that the instruction that Visser gave you, came from a senior ranked person?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I accepted his word.  I accepted his word for it.

MS VAN DER WALT: He only said that you must shoot, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, it is.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to take you back to your statement, the amended one, page 3, the third paragraph.  You say that during that period there were various attacks by black activists and ANC members on the farms of white people in the area where during these attacks illegal weapons were used.
	In the light of this, Phil Kloppers addressed us and gave us orders or instructions, that is now at Uncle Harry's.  It was page 3 of the amended application, it is Exhibit 5.  Can I continue, thank you.
	You have got the statement in front of you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to know, in the light of that Phil Kloppers addressed us and gave us instructions for the evening.  What did he say to you, how did he address you?  What was said there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: At the road cafe he said that we were going to work tonight.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am reading now from your statement, it is not amended.  It was in the first statement and it now again appears in the second statement.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Deon Martin later at the smallholding, he told us that we were going to put up a road block?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, I want to know what you mean in your amnesty application what appears here, because I am not confronting you now with what the other applicants say.  I am asking you a simple question from your own application.  I want to know from you what did you mean when you said regarding the first paragraph I read, because you put it in there, in the light of that, Phil Kloppers addressed us and gave us orders or instructions for the evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, the instruction was to erect a road block and to look for illegal weapons and ammunition.

MS VAN DER WALT: No, the instruction only came later and that was at Deon Martin's house?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The instruction that I understood and that is the instruction that I heard.

MS VAN DER WALT: You heard the instruction at Deon Martin's house regarding the road block?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: I want to know from you what did Kloppers say to you when he addressed you before he gave the instructions and that is now at the road side cafe?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: What he said there was that we were going to work tonight, and that is all that he said.

MS VAN DER WALT: But sir, that does not make sense.  Call up instructions were given to you to come together at the road side cafe?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: They go through a lot of trouble to with military precision, bring you to attention when Phil Kloppers arrived?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And all that he says to you is tonight, we are going to work?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, that is all that he said.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: And then he asked who did not have weapons and three people said that myself, Etienne Visser and someone else said that we did not have weapons.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could you just tell the Honourable Committee what did you understand when he said to  you tonight we are going to work and then gave out weapons?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I knew when he handed out the weapons that we there were going to be problems that evening.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you knew that those weapons would be used that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then regarding your evidence, where it differs from all the other applicants, the only thing that was said together with the handing out of the weapons, that there would be work done that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, why then do you put this paragraph in, if it is wrong then.  Why did you  not then amend this paragraph in your application, because what I said here, he did not address us, and he did not give instructions, that is wrong?  Why did you not then amend that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is what I am trying to say here, that at the road side cafe he said that we are going to work tonight.

MS VAN DER WALT: What has that got to do then with the black activists and the ANC members who attacked white people on the farms?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is what occurred during that time in the area.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said he didn't say anything?