Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-02

MR CHISOMA: There's no-one else who would have told Ben, Meneer was the one who was telling Ben.

ADV MOTATA: Are you thinking that, or are you assuming that Meneer would have conveyed that to Mr Ben?

MR CHISOMA: I know because Meneer was the one who was attending meetings, and he would go back and report everything to Ben.

ADV MOTATA: You said Mr Zulu was amongst the people who attacked Polla Park, do you recall saying that?

MR CHISOMA: You saw him in that crowd that was attacking Polla Park?

MR CHISOMA: Mr Zulu was staying in my section and I would see him all the time, so I've seen him.

ADV MOTATA: I see.  In the crowd that was attacking Polla Park, I assume it was IFP attacking Polla Park, but I mean, did you see him in that crowd going to Polla Park to attack?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, I've seen him.

ADV MOTATA: Did you see anything that he did when he was amongst that crowd attacking Polla Park, did you see anything which Mr Zulu did?

MR CHISOMA: They went and attacked Polla Park and they burnt houses in Polla Park, and he was one of the people.

ADV MOTATA: Ja, but my question is simple, did you see him or did you not see him do anything?  I know you saw him in the crowd but did you see him - let's take it that houses were burnt, but did you see him doing so or didn't you see him do anything?

MR CHISOMA: If you are with people who are armed and who are attacking, obviously you are an attacker yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chisoma, we will decide that.  The question is simple, that when you observed Mr Zulu in this crowd, did you see him do anything specific?

MR CHISOMA: I'm staying in Extension 2 and if you're going to Polla Park, there is no way you cannot pass Extension 2 and that.  So ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So when did you see him in the crowd then, did you not see him in the crowd?

MR CHISOMA: They will pass Extension 2 all the time and even if the police were trying to chase them away, they will come running.  So I've seen Mr Zulu among the crowd or among the attackers.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you see him doing anything specific while in that crowd?

MR CHISOMA: They were all armed, he was also armed and he was among them.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you can say about it?

MR CHISOMA: That's all I can say, that if you are armed and going to attack people, you are going to kill people.

ADV MOTATA: And lastly, Mr Chisoma, turn to page 83 which will lap over to 84.  Did you understand question 8(a) because they are asking you there
"If you are/were an officer/officer bearer, employee of the State or any former State or if you are/were a member of the Security Forces of the State or any former State, state the Department/Division."
And you ...(indistinct) employer."
That's your answer to that question:
"Your employer."
Did you understand what was required of you there?

MR CHISOMA: I used to work at Coca Cola company.

ADV MOTATA: Do you understand the word: "Employer", what it means?  What does it mean?  Don't just nod your head because we've got a machine and it doesn't record the nods.

MR CHISOMA: Now I understand, it means "Employer".

ADV MOTATA: So you were none of that?

MR CHISOMA: In 1993 I was working for Coca Cola company.  It was a contractual post.

ADV MOTATA: Do you know the difference between an employer and an employee?

MR CHISOMA: You mean and employer and an employee?

ADV MOTATA: Ja, that's right.

MR CHISOMA: I think I know the difference.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: When was the attack on Polla Park?

MR CHISOMA: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: When was the attack on Polla Park, which year?

MR CHISOMA: From 1990.

ADV MOTATA: No, but this one you spoke of where you saw Mr Zulu in the company of the people who were attacking Polla Park, when was that?  We don't want generalities here because you mentioned a specific incident.

MR CHISOMA: Yes, it was in 1990.  At that time we didn't have guns in the townships.  They were the ones with guns.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, any questions?

MR SAMUELS: I close my case for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Mr Chairperson, if I may, the victims's daughter is present.  I just wanted to place her details on record.

CHAIRPERSON: You take the details and give it to us when we're finished all the evidence.
	Mr Chisoma, I just want to point out to you that we are not a Court of law, we don't represent the Courts, especially those before 1994.  Do you understand that?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore you mustn't think you are on trial.  Do you understand that?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: I get the feeling, during your testimony, that you want to prove a case and there are times that you don't want to answer certain questions that are very simple to answer.  Now I'm not going to ask you why, I'm going to give you another opportunity to answer one specific question.  We're trying to help you but we can't help you if you're not giving us the reasons to help you.
	During any of these marches or attacks in which Mr Zulu was a party, did you see him do anything specific?

MR CHISOMA: No, I didn't see him attacking as such but I've seen him armed.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was part of a group that were armed, and you assumed that they would attack because they were armed?  It's a fair conclusion to come to, I must add.

MR CHISOMA: Yes, he was.

CHAIRPERSON: And how often did you see him in a group like that?

MR CHISOMA: I would often see him going with them and more especially going to IFP meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I am sure that there were other people who were also in a similar position, that you would have seen going to these meetings and you would seen present and armed in these marches or gatherings of the IFP members, why did you choose Mr Zulu as a person to be kidnapped and killed, why not anybody else?

MR CHISOMA: I couldn't recognise others because others had ran away.  Mr Zulu was in my section so it was easy for me to recognise him.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Thank you, you're excused.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could I just ...
	How old was Mr Zulu?

MR CHISOMA: He was big, I can't tell his age.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he an elderly man?

MR CHISOMA: Not that old.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all your applicants?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairman, ...(inaudible).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR SAMUELS: ...(inaudible) three persons were prisoners and a few days later we in fact were informed that they in fact had been released and they were no more prisoners and therefore we should try and trace them in the normal method that we try.
	I've just been instructed this morning that in fact we found out that two persons are still prisoners.  So in fact I think there may have been crossed wires between the two sides.  For that reason, and I know that I've been given until 11 o'clock this morning ...(end of tape) 
	...(inaudible) if we don't my suggestion is that all matters that I haven't consulted with, I'm prepared to have those matters adjourned sine die and they can the place in the roll at any stage. 
	I'm reluctant to withdraw persons whom I haven't consulted with because I don't know what a person is going to tell me in relation to the very general statements that person made in their papers.  That is my only reason why I wish to ask for one last adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, those three people, were they given notice?

MS PATEL: If I may, Honourable Chairperson, Brian Kopedi from the ANC TRD desk had undertaken responsibility for services of all the notices for these matters.  We were given no indication up until recently, that these persons weren't located.
	My instructions late last week was that these persons were in fact paroled and that we couldn't locate them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)