Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:  I don't know.  There were many students who were involved in that incident, those who were burning the house.

PROF MAGWAZA: Your daughter was murdered.  Did you report it to the police station?

WITNESS:   I didn't go to the police station because she was shot by the same police people.  I took her only to the hospital.

PROF MAGWAZA: You also mention here that - take your time, Mama.  I can see that up to now you're still feeling very hurt.  This is a very hurtful experience.  How has it affected your health?  What has changed in you since your daughter's death?

WITNESS:   I had a cardiac problem and diabetes.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you getting treatment, Mama?

WITNESS:   Yes.  Yes, I get treatment.

PROF MAGWAZA: And where are you getting it?

WITNESS:   At the doctor in town.

PROF MAGWAZA: So you have to pay for the treatment?

WITNESS:   Yes, I pay R60,00.

PROF MAGWAZA: The other thing which you mention, Mama, you said in the statement that you are depressed.  Can you tell us what happens to you?  How does it feel like?

WITNESS:   I'm not feeling well since the death of may daughter.

PROF MAGWAZA: Your husband, you said he's also not feeling well as he as swollen feet.  How was he affected by your  daughter's death?

WITNESS:   It has affected him badly because we have somebody even helping us.

PROF MAGWAZA: Who's helping you with what?

WITNESS:   We're helped by our sons-in-law and then we're selling liquor to make some profit.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you getting some grant, some money other than what you get from your son?

WITNESS:   I don't get pension yet.

PROF MAGWAZA: Have you applied for one or your husband, has he applied for one - both of you?

WITNESS:   We haven't made yet the applications.

PROF MAGWAZA: Your situation, Mama Ncala, is quite a very difficult one having lost your daughter and you husband getting very sick and I'm still not very sure what's wrong with your husband other than that he had swollen feet.  What's really wrong with him?  What do the doctor's say?

WITNESS:   The doctor say the legs have got cold.  The doctor talked much about the cardiac problem.

PROF MAGWAZA: Well, thank you very much, Mama.  I know it's very difficult sometimes to talk about very sad things that happened in your life.  I don't want to push you very hard but we are very happy that you have been able to share what you can share with us and we are hoping that by sharing with we will also understand your pain and that it's a reassurance that there are people who care and there are people who are very supportive to you.  In your own mind how can we help you?

WITNESS:   I don't know but I'm looking forward to the Commissioner how they can help me.

PROF MAGWAZA: All I can say is that we are hear to listen to your problems, to your situation.  We'll note that down.   We'll make recommendations and you are one of the people whose case will be known and you will be kept in records.  Thank you very much.

WITNESS:   I also thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other person?  Mama Ncala, thank you a lot.  There is an interesting ... (inaudible) ... paragraph in your statement and I want to read it.  You say here
"I would like Elias Tsabole to explain why among all the Comrades present at the time he shot my daughter.  I am prepared to forgive him but I'll never forget."
Those are very heavy words which come from a very painful heart and yet a heart which is prepared to forgive.  We will try by all means.  One of the things in the Act is that perpetrators should come forward and tell the stories why they did things which are so horrible and if they don't do it, the Commission has all the powers to subpoena them, to force them to come forward and tell the story.  It would appear to me that even people like Captain Hugo, who is mentioned in many stories here, should come forward and tell the stories why he committed so many crimes killing people because if he doesn't come forward he will have to be forced to come forward and say that.  So it is in that spirit that we'll also try as the Commission to see that Elias Tsabole fulfils your wish to come forward so that, as you've already said, you are prepared to forgive him.  And I want to thank you for that.  Okay, Mdu Dlamini just wants to say something.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mama Ncala, just one question.  It would appear that your daughter was  shot whilst in the company of fellow students.  May I know if, amongst the eye-witnesses, are there any people who are prepared to come forward and testify and assist out investigating officers?

WITNESS:   There were students who were there at that time and some of them are married.

MR DLAMINI: Would it be possible for you to contact them afterwards and find out if they would be ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I'll try, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mama.  Thank's a lot.  God bless you.

WITNESS:   Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: The next witness is Koliwe Magdalene Baloi.
EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS BETWEEN CHAIRMAN AND WITNESS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming to tell your story about the death of your son Samuel Mzuga Baloi but before you tell your story I would ask you to stand up and take an oath that what you say here is true, God being your helper.

KOLIWE MAGDALENE BALOI: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Koliwe, is it true that you live in 741 Molai Street in Tabong?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true I'm staying at 714 Tabong.

CHAIRPERSON: How long have you been staying there?

WITNESS:   As from 1980, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you live before?

WITNESS:   We were staying at Oppenheimer Golf Club.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can you give us a picture about your family - husband, if you've got a husband and children if you have got children apart from the one who was murdered and their age and what they doing, etcetera?

WITNESS:   I had four children with my husband.  I'm left with only one child.  Two of them died.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you had four children, is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are left with one now?

WITNESS:   Three of them has died and I'm left with only one.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand here that Samuel Mzuga was murdered.  What was the cause of death of these other two children?

WITNESS:   The other one died when he was still young, the one who was born in 1963.  He did when he was still  young.  The other one who was born in 1964, he was killed by people.  My husband is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: This one who was killed by people, who were those people?  Do you know them?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know them.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reason for killing him?

WITNESS:   They were from ... (inaudible) ... I don't know what they were fighting for.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was just murder - crime with nothing to do with politics?

WITNESS:   No, it has nothing to do with politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  This one who's left now, is it a boy or a girl?

WITNESS:   He is my firstborn.  He's a son.

CHAIRPERSON: How old is he?

WITNESS:   He was born in 1960.  He has his own house.

CHAIRPERSON: He's married?

WITNESS:   Yes, he's married.  He has his own family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  So at home you are now left with your husband?

WITNESS:   Yes, I'm staying with my husband only.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your husband doing, Mama?

WITNESS:   He's a chef at Oppenheimer Golf Club,

CHAIRPERSON: And what are you doing yourself, Mama?

WITNESS:   I'm a domestic worker, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Do you belong to any political organisation - you and your husband or your family?

WITNESS:   We are members of COSATU.

CHAIRPERSON: Members of COSATU.  Before Samuel was murdered did he belong to any political organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was a member of a political party, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What political party was that?

WITNESS:   He was a member of ANC.