Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR NDLOVU: The ANC people are our fellow brothers.  The situation of that kind, I think it was the first, and would like to assume will be the last one.  I would not therefore apply for amnesty with regard to that incident yet I will come here and lie.  I lied good enough at the Court of law, but here I am here to tell the truth.  I will not give this Commission evidence that is not true.

MR LAX: Mr Ndlovu just, if you'll allow me Mr Cachalia before you move too far away.  Did I understand you correctly that you said Sithole made a mistake because you were arrested on the Saturday, he probably wasn't.  Is that what you were saying.

MR NDLOVU: With regard to Sithole's mistake, I thought I explained that, although I don't quite remember what was the question that was posed to me.

MR LAX: The mistake was about people being injured.  You said, you saw them at Morningside, because you were arrested on that day, and he made a mistake, and the implication seems to be that he wasn't arrested on that day.  Did I understand you correctly?  Therefore he never saw the injured people.

MR NDLOVU: Alight, yes that is true.  Sithole was not arrested on that day of the incident.  He was arrested the following day.  And even that day still, when he was arrested, he did not meet with us at Morningside, for him to see the rest of other people, especially those who sustained injuries, the one's I'm referring to now.

MR LAX: Just for the record he told us he was arrested that night, at the place where they were waiting.  He said they went into someone's shack and they were waiting there until the police came and they were arrest.

MR NDLOVU: What I know, at, when we were there at Morningside, the people I was with, Sithole was not there.  He was not at Morningside.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm not going to take that matter further Mr Ndlovu.  I'll argue that position about your evidence in this regard.  I just want to put to you the final question Mr Ndlovu.  You say no leader of the ANC or nobody of the ANC structure gave you an instruction to behave in the manner that you have behaved ...(intervention)

MR LAX: IFP Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: My apologies.  IFP, sorry Mr Ndlovu, no leader of the IFP gave you instructions to do what you had in fact done on that particular day.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now I am suggesting to you that there was no reason for you, that there was no political objective that you were intending to achieve in going to fight, when there was no instruction given to you.

MR NDLOVU: As I explained that I am the follower of IFP.  I know that not even one of the leaders had instructed us to fight, but as the situation presented itself we now had to survive.  This was between IFP group and ANC group in that area.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then I just put the question in another way.  You were, you were fearful that you were going to be hurt or injured or you would die if you didn't defend yourself from an attack on you.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And there was no, only thing that you did was in self-defence.

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is true.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now when you killed this gentleman, when you partook in the killing of, or possible killing of this gentleman near the shebeen, the fellow with the briefcase, what was the self-defence there, sir?

MR NDLOVU: As I said, that when you are in a state of shock you'll find yourself doing just about anything that is unreasonable or embarrassing because of the shock, and you could even die as a result of shock, because your brain, your mind, will not be functional.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then we will accept Mr Ndlovu that the, that your actions that day was clearly in a state of shock in a, in the mistaken belief that you were defending yourself.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, it is true, we were in a state of shock.  We were shocked because the people we were fighting with were not our enemies as such.  We were struggling together in the area together with them.  Now I believe that as that Zevenfontein area is full of shacks, and as a result of that, that shows that we are struggling, economically we are not, we are struggling.  And we were together in the struggle.  And this happened unexpectedly.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Cachalia is it in dispute that there was an ANC IFP attack?  That there was this political uprising?

AZHAR CACHALIA: It is in dispute.  That is in dispute.  Most certainly is.  I don't wish to go through Mr Ndlovu in respect of what I have put to Mr Sithole about the meeting that was arranged, the purpose of the meeting, what happened about the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't mentioned it in his, otherwise we'll never finish this.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, I'm just saying I'm not going to put the whole case of the witnesses or the victims in this particular matter, he hasn't said so, I'm saying that Mr Ndlovu, I'm saying that there was essentially, there was malice on your part when you joined a group of people and attacked these people and there was no political objective and you've already commented on that, I don't think you need to comment again, so I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cachalia.  Ms Lockhat do you have any questions.

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht, any re-examination?

MR DRAHT: Only shortly Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ndlovu, were you under the impression that a person on the ground, the one that you kicked and beaten, was an ANC member?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is true.

MR DRAHT: Only another thing then, Mr Cachalia earlier said that you agree, and he didn't take it further, that was after Mr Lax said that in your evidence in head you said, that Mr Mkhize told you that, "...you are sitting here while people are dying." and the IFP and ANC were fighting.  Was this correct?

MR NDLOVU: So this was what you were referring to after Mr Chacalia asked you a question.

AZHAR CACHALIA: My apologies I was born with the name, I'm not able to change it, so it is Cachalia.

MR DRAHT: I have the same problem.
	So this was the correct version, Mr Ndlovu, your evidence in there?

MR NDLOVU: You mean about what I said?

MR DRAHT: Yes, that he said people, that Mr Mkhize said that "...why are you sitting here while people are dying?"  And "...the IFP and the ANC are fighting."

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR DRAHT: That will be all Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Sigodi do you have any questions.

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect that I want to clarify.  What method did you use to identify IFP people, IFP leaders?

MR NDLOVU: ...(not translated)

ADV SIGODI: What would you use to identify as an IFP supporter or as an IFP person?

MR NDLOVU: That was quite easy.  As we were coming for Jukskei River, going towards upward, there was an IFP office. There were people there.  As we were approaching we saw people there and we could tell that that is Inkatha going the other direction.  It was very easy for us to identify them.

ADV SIGODI: How did you identify them?

MR NDLOVU: As I have said, there was an office there.  IFP office that is, which was located there, downward.  As I said that, as they were going towards the upper direction they were coming
from that IFP office.

ADV SIGODI: If you met somebody who was not coming from that office, how would you know if that person was IFP?

MR NDLOVU: You mean?

ADV SIGODI: If you met somebody who was not, who was coming from another direction, not from the direction of the office, how would you identify that person as being IFP supporter or member?

MR NDLOVU: You see my eyes focus on them, not on other people coming from sideways.  I focused my eyes on the IFP office.  As for the people who were coming from other direction, I did not bother about them.