Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

FERDINAND BARNARD: Well, Mr Chairperson, what I did is that I was lying low.  I was told to lie low, I will be contacted again and that's what I did, but as I have said to you before, at a previous opportunity Mr Luitingh told me that I will be applied in a different way and in July, after the death of Dr Webster, Mr Luitingh again contacted me.  I cannot recall if it was at the Hyperama or not.  At the Hyperama the area was so big in Florida that we divided up in three sectors, so we'd say:  "I'll see you in number one, or two or three" and I assume that I saw him there again.  I think it was somewhere in July and he handed over R12 000 in cash, which would then be the three months salary, then I did not hear from him again for quite a while.  I followed the stories in the media and then in June I was contacted by another member of the CCB in a different region and I was despatched to South West Africa, Namibia.

MR COETZEE: Before we get to that, Mr Barnard,  we have now heard that certain investigations were made at that stage, even in the CCB itself.  Were you ever approached by Defence Force members concerning an investigation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It's the strangest thing, Mr Chairperson, nobody every approached me.  Joe Verster did not approach me and Lafras Luitingh knew what I did, but the investigative team as I know over the years, got to know, it was Krappies Engelbrecht and Witkop Badenhorst, still today haven't spoken to me about this.  Nobody asked me about it.

MR COETZEE: Very well.  I'm attempting to follow it in a chronological order.  Before we continue, was there another incident in which you were before the Webster incident, that you'd like to refer to?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I cannot place it in perspective when the Rosskamp incident took place, but I was involved in the Rosskamp incident.  I personally, with Calla Botha, burned out Anton Rosskamp's vehicle in the neighbourhood Yeoville.  The information that Brenda Miller gave with this regard that I injured my hand in this operation is correct.
	We arrived at Rosskamp's vehicle that evening.  I wanted to pick the lock of the vehicle.  I had the right equipment with me.  It was quite easy to get in.  I've done it before at various opportunities.  When  I started I saw that there was an alarm light in the vehicle.  I wasn't quite sure if it was a dummy light, or if it was really an alarm.  We did not want to - we wanted to be sure if there was a full tank of petrol.  We decided first to withdraw to a garage close by.  We decided that we are going to complete this job.  
	We took a four pound hammer.  I held it.  We then decided that Calla Botha will drive the vehicle.  We will drive next to Rosskamp's vehicle.  It was a densely populated area.  There was a lot of traffic on that evening.  There are a lot of blocks of flats.  I will get out of the car, I will smash the window of the vehicle with the hammer.  Mr Botha will then be ready with a tank of petrol, approximately 20 litres.  He will then walk towards the vehicle, throw this into the vehicle, then I will walk back and as he goes back to the vehicle, I will then light the Blitz and then set the car alight, which we then did.  The reason for this setting alight of the vehicle and the reason why I didn't want to put petrol on the outside of the vehicle and out of experience I knew and somebody also taught me this, that high octane petrol causes a chemical reaction and if you throw it with force in a restricted area, the gas will immediately set alight and that will create a large explosion.  It will shoot a windscreen of a vehicle out as high as a lamp post.  Well originally I also read in the media that they speculated that Mr Rosskamp's vehicle was damaged with an explosives device, but it was done in this way.

MR COETZEE: Why Mr Rosskamp's vehicle?  Why were you tasked with this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, actually I did not have anything to do with it, I was once again approached by Mr Botha as I approached him in the Webster case, we have come a long way, there's a feeling of trust between the two of us.  In all the people that I have met over the years, and if I had to chose one to accompany me on a sensitive issue, I would always chose Mr Botha.  I was in various tight spots with him, things that had nothing to do with the CCB, or officially with the CCB, but it had to do with - I know that he's somebody that can react under pressure, I know he will not sell me out.  There's a feeling of brotherhood between us, a blood tie between us.  He approached me and then I decided to assist him in this.  His information came from some coloured gangster member concerning Mr Rosskamp and his activities.
	This information was then again placed in the system, it came back, it was verified according to him and certain information was attached to it and this coloured gangster will then be tasked to burn the vehicle of Mr Rosskamp.  This thing did not work out because this gangster, I think he was a dagga smoker or a dagga smuggler, he did not deliver, he ducked and dived and turned and we decided to continue with the project so we can get it over and done with and we decided we could do it ourselves, and that's what we then did.

MR COETZEE: There was also the incident with- the Bruce White incident.  Can you also just explain this and place it in context, how and when this occurred?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson yes, at that stage myself and Mr Botha practised twice daily in a gym and also then at the Roodepoort Rugby Club.  We both played.  He mentioned to me that he received this task to work on Bruce White and that he had a problem, or problems.  He's alone on the corner, there were not a lot of details, he had a photograph of him and a little bit more information.  There was an address of the Urban Foundation, I think it was in Fox Street in Johannesburg.  I then decided to accompany him there and over a period of two days we were there three times.  At the last opportunity, members of the Brixton Murder and Robbery Branch arrived and they asked us what we are doing there on the corner of the street.  It was a mistake I made because I spoke to a security guard at the building and I inquired from him where Mr White was parking.  We were a little bit frustrated.  It was a mistake and it was my mistake and it was not Mr Botha's mistake.  I did not know how sensitive Mr White was and if this thing was reported and this then led that we were confronted on the corner of the street and asked to drive behind the detective to the Brixton Murder and Robbery branch so that we can give an explanation because the Captain who reported it over the radio, did not want to accept our explanation.  We then went to the Brixton Murder and Robbery offices.  We found Capt Zeelie and we gave an explanation, an explanation that we worked out on the way there.  This explanation was not acceptable to him  because of certain very obvious reasons and later that evening I fabricated an explanation by going to a person and then to pretend that I was looking for a vehicle that an insurance company was looking for that was a white BMW vehicle.  I then turned the whole thing that I took the relevant details of the vehicle and handed it over to Mr Botha and he then presented it to Capt Zeelie that if the guard misunderstood me, I was asking about a white BMW, but here is a vehicle that ...(indistinct) and there's a reference to an insurance company and this explanation was then accepted.

MR COETZEE: Do you know what the purpose was of the monitoring of Mr White?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I had it in mind that he was going to be eliminated although nobody told me this.  the whole purpose of the CCB was the maximum disruption of the enemy.  You cannot disrupt somebody to the maximum if you do not kill it and I think that's what they wanted.