Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Now, you have implicated Mrs Mandela in the murder of Stompie and you say the murder occurred in the evening more or less where you have indicated on the map. Was Mrs Mandela alone or was she with anybody else?

MR CEBUKHULU: She was with others.

MR VALLY: Who else?

MR CEBUKHULU: It was Richardson.

MR VALLY: Now it seems to me that your evidence is that you witnessed this late at night would that be round about midnight, a little before midnight, a little after midnight. When would it be?

MR CEBUKHULU: It was at night.

MR VALLY: OK. Did, how did it come about that you happen to be in this area at night. Why were you there?

MR CEBUKHULU: I was coming from the rest room from the toilet.

MR VALLY: Look at the map, the plan and indicate to the Commission which toilet you were coming from?

<UNKNOWN>: This is the toilet I am referring to.

<UNKNOWN>: The toilet which appears in the left top corner?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Where you were coming from the toilet. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I was coming from the toilet.

<UNKNOWN>: And where were you going?

<UNKNOWN>: I was going back to the bedroom.

<UNKNOWN>: The bedroom, does it appear on this map?

<UNKNOWN>: This bedroom, I am pointing at.

<UNKNOWN>: I can't see.

<UNKNOWN>: This is the bedroom I am referring to.

<UNKNOWN>: Area 2.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes. This is the one I am pointing at.

DR RANDERA: Father, I am sorry, we don't have that map we have another map in our files with no, no, we don't have that map, I can tell you that for sure. No.

<UNKNOWN>: I beg your pardon, you have the affidavit that I am following in, may I then be of assistance and give you my map, to an extent I am able to recall what is over here.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . Is in the left hand top corner and the room that he was going to is in the right hand top corner.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman I am ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so.

<UNKNOWN>: I think let's rather not waste time, we can visualise . .

CHAIRPERSON: How much more time are you envisaging?

<UNKNOWN>: What I am going to canvass is the death of Stompie, there is some detail which you have to hear and then would shortly come to an end.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

<UNKNOWN>: May I in fairness to my learned friend Mr Semenya who if I can just take this off through, I don't believe has got an affidavit, do you have the map at all Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: I have just been given one, yes, thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: OK. I am sorry, do you have the affidavit as well Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Even that I have just been given, thank you.
The speakers mike is not on!

<UNKNOWN>: . . . On about Page 11, this that's where the sentence is. Right, now, we have the picture, it is night time, you have just left the toilet and you are moving towards your sleeping quarters and you observe some people, is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did these people see you?

<UNKNOWN>: I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: Was there anything obstructing you from the view of these people?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: What was that?

<UNKNOWN>: It was the flowers.

<UNKNOWN>: Is there anything grows a little higher?

<UNKNOWN>: Those long flowers.

<UNKNOWN>: Were they bush, would you call it a bush? OK. Now, who did you see and what did you see this person or these people do. Who did you see and what did you see this person or these people do?

<UNKNOWN>: I saw Richardson coming from this point to the other direction holding something in his hand.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you able to recognise what this "something" was?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: What was this "something"?

<UNKNOWN>: A person.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you able to name the person?

<UNKNOWN>: I don't know the person. But it was a person.

<UNKNOWN>: You saw Richardson holding a person.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: At any stage . . . (indistinct) did you learn what the name of the name of the person was?

<UNKNOWN>: Subsequently yes, I got to know.

<UNKNOWN>: That person.

<UNKNOWN>: Stompie.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . say that you don't know who the person was when you saw Richardson carrying a person, is that because it was dark and you were unable to see, is that correct, is that the reason?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes it was dark at night.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, was Mrs Mandela anywhere nearby?

<UNKNOWN>: She was standing right next the to the Jacuzzi and Richardson put the person here and I saw Mandela's wife, he, raising up his hands twice, her hands twice.

<UNKNOWN>: I don't think you have to refer to anybody as somebody's wife. I think you can refer to the person by their actual name. Who did you see?

<UNKNOWN>: I saw Winnie.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . the lady who sits in this Commission. Is that right?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, slowly, what did you see her do?

<UNKNOWN>: I saw her raising her hands twice.

<UNKNOWN>: Did she have anything in her hand.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: What did she have in her hand?

<UNKNOWN>: It was something that was shining. I saw her raising her hand twice.

<UNKNOWN>: Raise the hand twice, I have difficulty with that concept how a person raises her hand twice. What happens, just think about what you are telling us. After the hand was raised for the first time did you see what . . .

<UNKNOWN>: She was stabbing. She stabbed twice.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . is your evidence then that Mrs Mandela with an object in her hand raised her hand above her head, now the hand is in the air, what then happened with the hand, what did you then see?

<UNKNOWN>: She raised her hands twice and pulled down as well, in a form of stabbing and I left immediately into my bedroom, I was scared as to what I was seeing whether it was a nightmare or what.

<UNKNOWN>: You use the word "stab" is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: In this movement with the hand which is holding an object going up and down, did you hear any sounds, any human sounds, sounds which come from a human being?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I heard a sound, I said I heard a voice.

<UNKNOWN>: You heard a voice?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Whose voice?

<UNKNOWN>: Of that person. I heard a voice of a person.

<UNKNOWN>: Well, whose voice was it that you heard?

<UNKNOWN>: Please repeat your question.

<UNKNOWN>: Whose voice did you hear. You say you heard a voice. Who was the person behind the voice?

<UNKNOWN>: I don't know the person's name.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . Did you find out the person's name?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the person's name.

<UNKNOWN>: It was Stompie.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . to answer my question using the interpreter. When you say I heard a voice, do you mean you heard a person speak or do you mean you heard some other noise that emanates from people?

<UNKNOWN>: I heard a voice, I heard a voice of a baby, I heard a voice like that of a baby, you can put it that way.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Cebukhulu I know it is late, I just want you to be accurate, when you refer to a baby are you talking about a baby that a mother holds in her arms, what are you talking about when you say "I heard the voice of a baby"? . . . that the correct translation of the language is used is not a baby but a child. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Cebukhulu please try and be accurate you are speaking in Zulu. You heard a voice, you heard a noise, was it, what age would you say the person was who made this . .  .

<UNKNOWN>: It was a voice of a young person. The voice of a young person. Very young person.

<UNKNOWN>: Did see the person who was being stabbed? Did you see the person being stabbed?

<UNKNOWN>: No, I couldn't see the person.

<UNKNOWN>: The person.

<UNKNOWN>: No, I wasn't able to see the person who was being stabbed.

<UNKNOWN>: Today, to tell the Commission who the person was who was stabbed.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I am able to.

<UNKNOWN>: Who was the person?

<UNKNOWN>: It was Stompie.