Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: The statement by Mr Dube with which you associate yourself by saying
"See statement"
... says it was a joint decision.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That I heard and I saw it.

MR RICHARD: So the statement is wrong, correct?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't say it's not wrong.

MR RICHARD: If we go to paragraph 5 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it paragraph 5 you've been reading from?

MR RICHARD: No, that's paragraph 4, where there Mr Dube states the circumstances.  At paragraph 5, there Mr Dube states he, Mr Dube, referring to himself as
"I immediately rushed to the three cell members in Emdeni.  I found them also having suspicions about Sicelo Dhlomo."
Is that correct or not correct?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If I may say that I did phone to tell him that his disappearance is posing some problems to us.  These are technical things, because I did explain or say that I'm the one who brought this to his attention.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel is putting to you, if you would just listen to him, is that Mr Dube in his statement says that he rushed to the three cell members at Emdeni and that they then took a decision.  Now on your evidence that is not true, is it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is what I was trying to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not true, is it, he didn't rush to the three other members in Emdeni?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm the one who called him.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not prepared to say that what Mr Dube says is untrue?  Do you feel you must back him up as far as you can?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not backing him up, I'm not supporting him either but what I'm understanding with Mr Dube is that he is not having a clear recollection of all the events and the sequence in which they took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, so as a result of his not having a clear recollection, is what he said in his statement untrue?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: This is why I answer the way I do, because I have realised that he is not having the clear recollection of all these things.  If I was backing him up or supporting him for that matter, I will be concurring with his evidence through and through.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know that the others are not going to back that up.  So you are not prepared to say, very well.

DR TSOTSI: When Mr Dube gave his evidence, did he adhere to this version of the facts that he went to the others, after the others and ...?  Did you listen to his evidence when it was put to him did he adhere to it, did he say "yes, I stand by that statement"?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: In other words are you suggesting that I must turn around my evidence and agree to what he has said or agree with him?

DR TSOTSI: No, no, no, you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Dube gave evidence, you listened to him.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I listened to him although I was not here all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're being asked did he in his evidence say that he rushed to the three cell members in Emdeni or did he give a different version?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know how to reiterate this, because I did say that I'm the one who called him.  How else must I put this?

CHAIRPERSON: You are being asked about the evidence Mr Dube gave here which you listened to.  Did he say in that evidence that he rushed to the three cell members in Emdeni?  He was asked about it, wasn't he?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He was asked and how am I featuring in that questioning of Dube because I'm telling you what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: You know what he said yesterday.  You can't suddenly shut your mind to things you're being asked about what was said.  Don't you want to answer the question?  ...(indistinct)

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the witness said in response to the question that was he listening to evidence, that he did listen to evidence but at times he did go out.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what he said earlier, but we'll leave it there if you want to abide by that answer.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  When in May 1997 you signed your application and read it, didn't you know then that Mr Dube's statement was incorrect?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: You asked me yesterday about this statement and I told you that this is a very general and broad statement.

MR RICHARD: Sitting before this Committee you have given a version very different to what is said in this statement, and I refer you particularly to paragraph 5 where you associate yourself with the statement
"We then took an unfortunate decision to eliminate Sicelo Dhlomo."
Today you tell us that neither Mr Tshabalala nor Mr Zungu were party to that decision, is that not a complete contradiction, that's not a generality, do you agree with me?  How do you reconcile those two statements?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If my memory serves me well, when Dube tendered his evidence he told you that he took this decision alone.  He did say that to you.

MR RICHARD: But here Mr Dube puts in a sworn statement saying he didn't take it alone, he took it with the other three as well, including Mr Zungu and Mr Tshabalala.  My question is, how can that be described as a generality?  Please tell me how do you reconcile the contradiction.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: The way you look at this thing you see contradiction but that's not how I perceive it.  And if I attempt to explain in another way, it's fatal.  But he did say that the reason why he said, he wrote this way is that the command decision is the unit decision.  There's no democracy.
	When he has taken a decision that is a decision for the unit.  He did say that, he tendered that evidence to that effect to you yesterday and told you that we were together, the two of us, when this decision was taken.  That I did mention.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand though that you abide by your application for amnesty in which, when you were asked to deal with such things as justifications, you keep saying refer to the commander's statement?  That is the statement that he made which you say you were shown a copy of.  That is what your application for amnesty is based on, do you realise that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still say that it is based on what is contained in that statement?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I adhere to that.

MR RICHARD: Do you think that execution was the only option available to you or Mr Dube at the time?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That was the option we had, only option rather.

MR RICHARD: Now during the period between the 24th of January and the beginning of October, had anyone of your cell members other than Mr Dhlomo been arrested or detained?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Referring to which period?

MR RICHARD: October '87 to January '88.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember anything in relation to detention or arrest of any other cell members.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you hadn't been arrested, although you walked around with a Makarov pistol in your belt all the time, is that so?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I never was arrested in possession of a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you arrested at all, were you taken in for questioning?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I explained that I was arrested in '98, 6 November and I was released June '87.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You're being asked about October '87 to January '88.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I never was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your house searched?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember any of that.

CHAIRPERSON: You were living at home then?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was not living at home then.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you living?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had my places where I used to live.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in different places all the time?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had different places, I never used one place.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be very difficult to find you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's what I'm saying, those are my words.