Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Without going through either 617 or 621.

MR SNYMAN: I believe that it is possible, your Honour, but I cannot exactly remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, where was Mr Biko when Mr Beneke entered 619?

MR SNYMAN: To the northern side of the room, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could I just clarify with the witness from the campus
point?  Is that north this way?  Well, we will make a copy of this for the court during the adjournment?  Is that north?  Yes, he was, you say, on the northern side of 619.  Was he on the western side of the door between 617 and 619 or on the eastern side of the door in 619, between 619 and 617?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I cannot exactly remember at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: At that stage, when Mr Beneke came in, there were five people in the room, a desk, a cabinet and a table.  Or rather, I beg your pardon, and a chair.  Correct?  Five people; the detainee, four of you, a cabinet, a desk or table and a chair. Correct?

MR SNYMAN: How many people did you refer to?  Could you just repeat the number of people?

GEORGE BIZOS: Five.

CHAIRPERSON: There were five, Mr Biko and four of you, would that be correct?

MR SNYMAN: That would be correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now, you would hardly have been able to swing the proverbial cat in a room so small with five people in it, a desk and a chair, could you have?

MR SNYMAN: I would agree with you that this was a very small office.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: It's obvious that even if they didn't swing cats, they swung punches.

GEORGE BIZOS: Unhappily that is so, Mr Chairman.  Now tell me of necessity,  when Mr Beneke came in there must have been at least a couple of you between Mr Biko and him?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the speaker.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the people then present were Mr Beneke, Mr Siebert, Mr Niewoudt and Mr Marx, who then joined in.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were punches being thrown when he came in, when he, Beneke, came in?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, at that time, at that point, Mr Beneke came in to assist in the restraining of Mr Biko.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the question?  Don't you pay any attention to the questions, Mr Snyman?
	When Mr Beneke came in, were punches being thrown at Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: In the process of restraining him there would probably have been punches dealt out.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Nobody cleared the way for Mr Beneke to come in as a sort of eighth man for a rugby tackle?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, Mr Beneke entered after he heard the scuffle inside.

GEORGE BIZOS: The gravamen of the question, is that nobody would
have had to open the way for Mr Beneke to come in when he decided to do so, because of necessity. Having regard to the smallness of the place and that probably punches were being directed at Mr Biko at that stage, he could not have done this rugby tackle, unless the five - the other four people there, made an opening for him to do this tackle?
Do you agree with that?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Please tell us, I want to go away from the sequence and finish up where you say Mr Biko hit his head against the wall.  Which portion of the wall did you say Mr Biko's head hit?

MR SNYMAN: It would have been on the northern side of the room, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that where he was originally?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll ask you again.  On the western side of the door between 617 and 619 or the eastern side?

MR SNYMAN: I would say the northern part, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know that, but the room as small as it is, has a door leading to 617. Was it on the left-hand side of that door which would have been the west or the right-hand side of that door which would have been the east? Where was he when Mr Beneke charged him with a rugby tackle?

MR SNYMAN: I could not say exactly, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let us assume for the time being that it was either the one or the other. Where was the chair in relation to Mr Biko when this tackle was executed?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I would not be able at this stage to tell you.

GEORGE BIZOS: When these punches were being directed at Mr Biko, did he put up his arms or take any defensive action against his attackers?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, he was a large man and also from his side that would have been the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was whether he took any defensive action by putting up his arms in order to deflect the punches from his attackers?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it would not have been clear for me to distinguish from that which exactly occurred.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, we don't know what that means, but let us proceed.	Mr Siebert, Mr Niewoudt were young, properly trained policemen, fit, I take it - correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: They also had the advantage of having you and Mr Marx as reserves if the need arose?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You also had a welcome reinforcement in the person of Mr Beneke?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: As soon as Mr Beneke charged him, what happened to Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, there was a general fight, an effort to restrain Mr Biko at that point and to be able to handcuff or shackle him again.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was he surrounded at that stage against the northern wall by the five of you?

MR SNYMAN: The people involved in the fight were the persons that I've already mentioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: No.  Was he surrounded by the five of you against the northern wall?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we were in the office.  However, the men whom I have already mentioned, joined in the fight in an effort to restrain him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now what did they do in that fight at that stage?  What do you mean, the fight?  What did they do?  What did the men do; that is Siebert, Niewoudt, Marx, Beneke and yourself?  What did each one of you do?  Let us start off with Mr Siebert.  What did Mr Siebert do after Biko was rugby-charged?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the fight then ensued to restrain him.  In that process they fell, they bumped against chairs and tables in an effort to restrain him?

GEORGE BIZOS: What did you see Mr Siebert doing in this fight immediately after the rugby tackle?  What did Mr Siebert do?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to say exactly, but there was a roundabout scuffle.  You must remember, Mr Biko was a strong man and in this wrestling scuffle there was an effort to pin him down so that he could be chained or cuffed again.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, what did Mr Siebert do in this effort?  Did he grab his hand and try and twist it perhaps behind his back or did anyone of them try to pin his arms against his body? Did Mr Siebert do that or any of those things?

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, really, the witness have told my learned friend now he cannot give exact details what was happening.  Your Lordship pointed that out to my learned friend as well that this happened.  This is really getting to a stage where I think I must object to this specific line of questioning being unfair at this stage and should be disallowed.

CHAIRPERSON: You're being asked questions on matters of detail about what each of your colleagues did or what you remember them doing.  Now if you can remember what each one did, then you must answer the questions, but if you can't, then you must say so.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I want to say that at this point I do not recall every single punch or every single part of the struggling or scuffle.  This was very long ago.

GEORGE BIZOS: So as far as Mr Siebert is concerned, you cannot remember whether or not he punched Mr Biko after he was rugby tackled by Mr Beneke?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already given his answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the answer?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot say exactly, your Honour.