Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MR VISSER: Oh, I am sorry, I thought you - will you please tell me when the interpretation by someone else has been rectified.
	I am just waiting, I can't hear a thing over my earphones, Mr Chairman.  I thought we were waiting for an interpretation.   Any way, is it your evidence that the fact that people were assaulted there, was really advertised with this sticker or the board or the placard, Violent Street, so that if somebody came there, they would know this is a place where people are assaulted?  Is that your impression?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you told the Committee on a question of the Chairman, that other people from the building, from the other floors of the building, had access to that floor, not so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Are you referring to people of other floors than ours?  You would only have access to our floor in company of another member of the Security Branch.  You cannot just be alone.
	And you would be allowed in if you had to answer something, not just.  There would be nobody from the first floor to come into our floor for no reason.

MR VISSER: Yes, I can see that you see the problem coming Mr Motsamai.   Isn't it true that members of the public had access to that floor only on condition that they had made an appointment or were accompanied by a Security Branch member?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not the right, that is not how you put it.  When they had appointments,  I did not know which appointments you are referring to.
	You would only come to the offices if you were to be interrogated or asked questions.  Even when a black person had a girlfriend, the girlfriend would not visit.  The girlfriend would not gain access into the building.  The person was supposed to go down to meet the girlfriend.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, I don't want to labour this with you but let me just put this last question to you, this last proposition.  If I, as a member of Bloemfontein community, had information which I thought was vital to the Security Police, could I under no circumstances gain access to the fifth floor to go and speak to you, Mr Motsamai, if I wanted to speak to you in your office?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: What would you inform us about sir?  I would get you outside.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm going to leave that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go off, I would like to know something more about the building.  How did you get into and out of this building?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There were steel doors, you have to ring the bell at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the front door?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The doors I am referring to as being steel doors, were in the fifth floor and on the fourth floor.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am talking about the building itself.  Was there a main entrance that you came into?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, My Lord.  There was a policeman at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: And was there a back entrance that you could park in the building or anything of that nature?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There was a parking at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you brought detainees in or out of the building, you would not have to bring them in through the front door?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We used the front door.

CHAIRPERSON: You used the front door?  Always?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The front door was used to go up the stairs.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you were taking people, detainees, in or out of the building, would you have taken them out at the front door?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, they used the front door.

CHAIRPERSON: So, when you were taking people down who were bruised, swollen and bleeding, you would have taken them out at the front door, is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: These people were taken out of the building after four o'clock, when most of the people have gone out.  If a person was really injured, he was taken after that hour.

CHAIRPERSON: So your sole security, if one can call it that, against people seeing it, was that you did it after four o'clock?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Most of the things were done after four, yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am now proceeding Mr Chairman, to page 148, 14 which is the last incident, Mr Chairman.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Which Bundle are you referring to, sir?

MR VISSER: Bundle A, page 148.  It is the last incident for which you apply for amnesty, marked paragraph 14.  Perhaps, Mr Motsamai, if you will do us all a favour can you just move your microphone a little bit away from the papers, it does affect it.
	You say that you, Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Miningwa and Ramosoeu - may I assume that the Interpreters do have a copy of this - all right.   So it is yourself, Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Miningwa and Ramosoeu, six of you, and you told the Committee that you were involved in an attempted murder of Oupa Makhubalo, the Chairperson of COSAS and he had been implicated in the murder of one of our informers, Kosi and then you said, we fired several shots at him, but missed.
	That is what is at page 148.  Now, your evidence was slightly different, but we will come to that.  First let me ask you this.  Whose informer was Gosi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He wasn't anybody's informer.

MR VISSER: Yes, you are not going to admit this easily, are you?  How is it possible that there could be an informer without a handler?  Can you explain that to us?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: What does that mean sir?

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, I put it to you, you were Gosi's handler and Gosi was your personal informant.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, that is not so.   He was killed accidentally.

MR VISSER: Oh, yes.  Actually it wasn't so accidentally and I will tell you now why.  He was your informant and what you did, Mr Motsamai and there will be evidence about this, is you went to his home with a Security Branch motor car, in full day light, to consult with him and he was killed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not true.  His mother was working with my wife.  They were nurses together, they were colleagues from school and I used to go there to visit the family or my wife visiting his mother.

MR VISSER: Did you ever go there with a government vehicle to that house where Gosi lived?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I used to go there with the government car.

MR VISSER: Would you say that members of the community would have known that car and would have known that you were a member of the Security Branch?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They knew.

MR VISSER: After, well I don't want you to disclose any identities, I am not asking you that, please understand that, all I am asking you now is this - after the death of Gosi did you, Motsamai, have any informants whom you handled?  Just yes or no.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is a no, but the way you put your question, the answer is yes, but the way you are asking it, it is as if Gosi was my informer.

MR VISSER: I have already put that to you and there will be evidence about that.  I am now asking you whether apart from whether Gosi was or was not your informer, did you have informers whom you personally handled?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Many.

MR VISSER: Yes.  This is a bit difficult, Mr Chairman, I don't want to illicit the identity of informants, we know what the law says about that, so I am going to step off this and simply say to you there will be evidence that in fact you didn't, you couldn't obtain another informant because of what had happened to Gosi. 	That will be the evidence.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: My Lord, that is what they told you, because the files they are gone, now they have an opportunity to lie to you.  Can I explain this Chairperson?	I will explain how Gosi died.

MR VISSER: If you must, please do explain it.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I want to show you that he was not my informer.