Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And while you were there, members of this crowd were still knocking you aside as they moved past you?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That was also your evidence.  And like Inspector van Reenen, you regularly in your evidence in the inquest used the phrase
"uit die pad uit gestamp"

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And they had in fact proceeded, the front of the group in your estimation at the time, had proceeded some 5 or 10 metres past the pharmacy when shooting broke out.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Is it also correct, and you gave a graphic description Sergeant, that members of this crowd then were trying to flee, some were falling, whether they had been struck by gunfire or were simply taking cover, you did not know but while that was happening gunfire continued.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you, to get out of the scene of that conflict, then ran around the corner into De Villiers Street?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is also correct.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, just one moment.
	Just in conclusion Sergeant, and again if necessary I can refer you to passages, if you're not certain then I'll do so with pleasure, but you'll remember that in the course of the inquest you were asked whether you could say positively where the first shots came from.  At some points in your evidence you said that you couldn't say where the first shots came from;  at other points in your evidence you said they came from your right-hand side, from the direction of the ANC.  Do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And as you sit there today, would it be fair to say that you really, you are not confidently able to state under oath where those first shots came from?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's also correct.

MR TIPP: And you'll remember also Sergeant, although there's nothing in your statement to this effect, in fact nothing about Shell House really at all, at one stage you said that you had heard one of the ANC people on the corner say something like the following "let's kill some Zulus, they are going to attack Shell House", do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I remember that.

MR TIPP: And you also remember that at other points in your evidence you accepted that perhaps it hadn't happened at all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: It's ...

MR TIPP: Would you like me to refer you it?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes please.

MR TIPP: Yes, I'll do so.
	Mr Chairman at page 1990, just to put it in context Mr Chairman, the Committee will see that at page 1989 I raised in cross-examination the question of this statement, I'm not going to read it.  At page 1990, line 1 the Court asked:
"Wel is u seker dit het gebeur, of maak u miskien 'n fout, want soos ek verstaan, sekere van daardie persone wat daar was, vennaam ANC lede, hulle gaan se dit het nie gebeur nie, niemand het dit gese nie.  Is u seker, of is u nie seker nie, maak u 'n fout?"
And your answer:  
"Ek weet nie of die ander Polisiemanne wat saam met my daar was die opmerkings gehoor het en dit in hulle verklarings geskryf het nie, dan se ek maar eerder ek is nie seker daar nie."
Right?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: At there are a few other, at line 12 you said "so se maar liewer ek is nie seker nie."  At line, approximately 16, you said
"goed, ek is dan nie seker nie."
At line 19 you said:  
"Ek sal se ek kan dit onthou"
You went back to saying "well I can remember it."  And then at line 27 I asked you, I pointed out:  
"Daar's geen melding van so 'n opmerking in u verklaring nie"
And then your answer was:  
"Dan dra ek nie kennis nie."
And there are one or two other such references.
	Again, as you sit there Sergeant, we're not running a trial, as you sit there, are you confidently able to state under oath that you definitely heard such a remark, or are you not sure?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I'm not sure, Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

JUDGE NGCOBO: Where would you have obtained the information regarding those remarks from?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1990.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Did you hear those remarks or didn't you hear them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I'd say no, I didn't hear those remarks, Sir.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I beg your pardon?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He says that he didn't hear.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, just one or two aspects.  Mr van Greunen did you ever see a firearm amongst the crowd, the Zulus?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Negative.

MR PRETORIUS: When the shooting started, you described it at 1987 further as a "volley of shots" that started firing whilst you were standing with you back against the pharmacy, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Sir.

MR PRETORIUS: And that is then that you also experienced the people falling down around you, you can't say whether they were shot or not, but they were felling down around you, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR DORFLING: No questions thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr van Greunen, would I be correct in saying that amongst the portion of the crowd that you saw, you didn't see a firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Madam.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you would be unable to say whether of the approximately 500 members who constituted that crowd, none of them had a firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I didn't see any firearms amongst the crowd.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Of the portion that you saw?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Of the portion that I saw, that's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you telling us that of the crowd that you saw, the entire crowd, because the evidence that is before us is that you were able to observe that the crowd consisted of approximately 500 members, am I correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Madam.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Would I be therefore correct that you didn't observe 500 members and you would be unable to say, of the 500 members that you saw, at least initially observed, you would be unable to say if none of them carried any firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I would be unable.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate, I've had word about the one gentleman that tried to locate the witness and as at 16h30 this afternoon we weren't able to locate Mr Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if he's not here by 09h30 tomorrow morning we will proceed without him.

MR DORFLING: I would urge the Committee to consider obtaining the availability of Mr Mhlaba.  We're trying our best to locate him.  He had an appointment with me last week and it was arranged for the purposes of him here but I'm just having difficulty to locate him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I'm not making a decision just now but I'm tempted to say that if we can't trace him by tomorrow morning then we'll have to proceed with the inquiry without him.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When last was Mr Mhlaba seen?

MR DORFLING: I spoke to him in person on the last occasion when we took the adjournment.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Oh I see, okay.  But does he work in Johannesburg, do you know?

MR DORFLING: He was unemployed at that point in time as far as I was aware.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, okay.  Was he informed that he would be required to come and give evidence today?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, I made an appointment with him to see me last week for purposes of adducing his evidence in this week, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, thank you, very well.

CHAIRPERSON: The appointment was not made by you personally, but through somebody else?

MR DORFLING: No, no, I personally arranged with Mr Mhlaba to come and see me last week Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I saw him in person at the time of the last adjournment and I at that occasion arranged for him to come and see me last week and ever since he didn't turn up.  We have trying to locate him.