Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, it is true, but not at the shop.  I think it's about fifteen (15) or twenty (20) metres away from the shop.

MR HATTINGH: I've been told that Jwi Zwane was lured to your business by a certain Popolina and she asked him to stand outside your shop and he was then killed.  Do you know anything of this?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I know nothing about that.

MR HATTINGH: Do you perhaps know who pointed out Zwane out to Gushu?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Were you present on that day when Zwane was killed at your business?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I was not present.  I only arrived and received a complaint from the shop that people were crying, saying shots were being fired and that was that.  When I arrived there this thing had already happened.

MR HATTINGH: Is it correct and something which you were aware of at the time that Jwi Zwane was working with his brother Elias Zwane in another business of theirs?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I knew that he was Elias' brother, but I knew him to be unemployed.

MR HATTINGH: The applicant Gushu also applies for amnesty for the killing of Advice Gwala.  Did you take part in any discussions and instructions for the elimination of Advice Gwala?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I know nothing about that.

MR HATTINGH: The person Lindiwe Nkosi who was killed together with Chris Ngwenya, did you know her?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, I knew her.

MR HATTINGH: Was there any instruction for her to be killed as well?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No instruction was issued to the effect that she should be killed, but the instruction was meant to kill Chris, for Chris to be killed.  I think she must have been caught in the crossfire.

MR HATTINGH: As far as you were aware at the time, was Lindiwe Nkosi also a problem in Ermelo?  As far as political stability was concerned.

JOHN MNDEBELE: She was a member of Inkatha.  She was Chris' wife.  That's as far as I know.

MR HATTINGH: The question was, did she cause any problems in Ermelo during that period of which you were aware of?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I didn't know if there was a problem, but I only knew she was a member of Inkatha.

MR HATTINGH: And Thembisile Nkambule, was there any instruction for her to be killed?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No.  As I have explained, there was no instruction or order issued that Lindiwe and the other one should be killed.  I think they were just unfortunate to be caught in the crossfire.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Hattingh, can I just come in on one very specific issue so that we won't have to come back to it.  Mr Mndebele, during this conflict was it part of the way this conflict was happening that one would be killed simply because he was a member of a political party?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SANDI: During the political conflict and violence you have spoken about, would one be killed only because he or she was a member of a political party?  Just for that reason would one be killed?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No.  Let me say that people who were killed were the ring leaders in the violence.  If we were to kill everybody, many people could have died.  We were just looking for the lead perpetrator.  We believe that people had the right to join whichever political party they so wished.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, lastly I would like to put to you that on your own version as set out in the documentation, as well as your evidence today, it would appear that at least Chris Ngwenya or the instructions for Chris Ngwenya to be killed was in fact not given with the aim of promoting stability in the Ermelo area because there was no instability at that time.

MR PATEL: I must object to that question.

JOHN MNDEBELE: You must have been present when you say there was stability.  What I know is that there was no stability at Ermelo at the time.  (APPLAUSE BY AUDIENCE)

MR PATEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no further questions.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: I want to address the audience.  This is a process where people are trying to sort out their lives and their future.  We are not here to score points.  Serious crimes have been committed and people are trying to come to terms therewith and live with themselves and I would appreciate it if we don't have applauses etcetera as we just did.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir.  Mr Mndebele, I just have one point, sir, to clarify with you.  In your background statement, in page thirteen (13), paragraph 16.2, you say there there was an implied instruction to Gushu that he was to obtain arms and ammunition to finance these operations from whatever source, including armed robbery.  Are you aware that Mr Gushu has applied for amnesty for armed robbery here?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I did not take that as an armed robbery, I took it as a political action because he had been sent by ...(indistinct) to do everything in his power to make sure that we succeeded.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying his action falls within the general instructions that you had, that the SDUs must be formed?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Exactly.

MR MAPOMA: Now we know that the ANC had no policy that armed robberies must be committed, is it so?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It did not have such a policy as you have stated, but the circumstances under which we lived were such that everything had to be done for us to succeed, because people were not arrested and Inkatha or the Black Cats were armed.  They also had guns.  We knew that they had those things and we knew the caches, reporting these on the police.  They would just dismiss it as non-existent.  I went to people, indicated to them that Israel Hlongwane had shot a person in extension at that stage, a person whose name was Andries.  I spoke to Mr Marais about this and he said he was going to go and arrest him.  But the following day he indicated to me that there was no evidence and he let him go.  That was after I had spoken to Israel Hlongwane.  Bongani had actually also told me that Israel Hlongwane is the one who killed Zini.  I took this matter up with the police but they said there was no evidence and therefore anything else had to be done so that we too could arm ourselves to protect our people.  In a war situation one does everything to survive, depending on the circumstances.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying that armed robbery was committed within the framework of the formation of the SDUs, as was instructed by the ANC?

JOHN MNDEBELE: This came about as a result of our wish to protect the community.  For the protection of the community, as I have earlier on indicated, there had come a time where we concluded that they had to do everything in their power so that the community is protected, and if they realised that we did not have money to buy weapons, they had to come up with a way wish they could best use.

MR MAPOMA: Now, did the ANC have set out regulations as to how to form SDUs?  Did it have rules that this and that should not be done in the process of forming the SDUs?

JOHN MNDEBELE: As far as I know, there were no regulations, but the self-defence units were under the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: So, do I understand you correctly, that the local structures would decide for themselves how to form the self-defence units?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The self-defence units were the ones who would come up with a decision as to what they wanted to do, as long as they had a wish and an intention of promoting the organisation.

MR MAPOMA: So, was it within that particular framework that you as the special unit decided to instruct Gushu to operate in whatever way, as long as he's going to form the SDUs?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR PATEL: I have no re-examination.

MS BOSMAN: (Inaudible)

MR SANDI: Chairperson, the speaker's mike is off.

MS BOSMAN: What was the nature of your business you were involved in?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Cafe.