Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well to me she looked like an innocent person,  I do not think that somehow was trained maybe to look after suspicious people, but after I asked her some water, I realised then that I think this girl was trained to look after suspicious persons and to report to the farmer, so I take it that that girl was part of their security systems, or something.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's retreat a bit and go back to the landmines that were laid by your group of six.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, before that Mr Koopedi, I'm sorry, was this girl black or white?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: It was a black lady.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you talking about girl, what, five years old?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I think she was around, I'm not sure really, but to me she looked like she was 16, 15, 16 or 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Let's go back to the mines that were laid by your group of six.  Do you have any personal knowledge as to which mine detonated when and which mine killed or injured whom?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I had no knowledge up until I appeared in Court and I was told that some of the landmines were detonated by the De Nysschen family, van Eck family, I think somebody, a truck driver or something, a black person also, but really then I didn't know which mine we laid as a group of six, killed who.

MR KOOPEDI: But however, is it correct to say that you take responsibility or you take yourself to be part of he group of twelve that laid the twelve landmines?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja, since we operated more or less in the same area and there's - my other colleague said earlier on that we were briefed together as a big group, though at the end of the day we separated and I cannot say for sure what the other six group, what they did that other side, but the other group, my group where I was involved, I know for sure that this is what we did.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you found not guilty of the murder of the van Eck family?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I was not found guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: Not found guilty, yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And I believe he was not charged with that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you charged with the murder of the van Eck family?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman.

MR WAGENER: On this last question, Mr Mncube, you were in fact charged for all the landmines, if I reach the charge sheet in my bundle, from page 36 onwards, you were charged.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it seems like both accused were charged with all the same offences right up to number 41.

MR WAGENER: That's right, but you were acquitted on a number of these charges.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR WAGENER: And you were convicted - and the charges that you were convicted on are those incidents referred to on page 20 when you were asked for further particulars.
"What do you apply for amnesty for?"
and there you stated the incidents that you applied for and those were the incidents where you were convicted, so you only ask for amnesty for those incidents, that's the way I read your application.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja, that is including the landmines where I was involved.

MR WAGENER: Yes, but those were ones where you were convicted in a criminal Court.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR WAGENER: And those are the incidents that you set out on page 20 of the bundle.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR WAGENER: And that does not include, the way I understand the situation, you're not asking for amnesty for any of the landmines laid by the other group of six.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja, the other group of six, I'm not asking amnesty for that because they acted independently under their own Commander.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Right and we have our own Commander this side.

MR WAGENER: Right.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: So that's why even at the end of the day the Court did not find me guilty of what happened on the other side, but found me guilty of what happened with the other six where I was involved.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  No I wanted to clear a possible misunderstanding that you are only asking for amnesty for the incidents where you group of six, where that group was involved and not where the group of six of Mr Nondula was involved, you're not asking for that, that's the way I read your application.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Because I was not involved with that.

MR WAGENER: Who were the members, who were the other members of your group of six?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: It was myself and Mbuli.  The other four, I think they are late by now.

CHAIRPERSON: We know of Chilies and who else?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I can't even remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what Chilies' real name was?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Agrippa?  Agrippa, do you know what his name was?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Who were the other members of the group of Agrippa apart from Mr Nondula?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: You mean the group that I was involved with?

CHAIRPERSON: The other group.  We know that Agrippa was the Commander.  We know that Mr Nondula was a member, do you know who the other four people were in the other group?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: No, I can't remember.  I can't remember their names.

MR WAGENER: Do you know their MK names?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I'm not sure if Terrence was in their group or in our group.  He was in our group, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Terrence?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja, it's an MK name, that one.

MR WAGENER: Okay, I'll accept that you can't remember.  Prior to this operation, did you group of twelve receive any training in landmines and how you should go about placing them or setting them?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Yes, Sir, we did some ...(indistinct) before we came in the country.

MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Sorry?

MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I will say it was just a refresher training because we have done it before in Angola, we have done it Shemenye, it was just a refresher course so that people can refresh themselves as to how to plant mine, to time the mines, how quick to dig, things like that.

MR WAGENER: You testified in a criminal Court that you had no specific experience or training in the usage of landmines, was that a lie?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: You mean in Court?

MR WAGENER: Yes in Court.  Yes, in the Criminal Court.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja, that time it was a different situation then.

MR WAGENER: So you lied in Court?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Yes, I lied then because it was not about TRC, it was another Court under apartheid regime, so one was - I mean I had no choice but to try to protect myself wherever possible.

MR WAGENER: So would you say that this group of twelve, the larger group, they were trained operatives in explosives and specifically landmines?  You were a trained group of operatives when it came to landmines specifically?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well I would say so, yes.

MR WAGENER: Or was it a case that only a few of the twelve were , if I may refer to it as explosive experts and the others merely accompanied and carried the weaponry and so on.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I'm not sure if I will say there were some experts but as far as I'm concerned,  I will say all of us were experts, that's why we were tasked with that mission, because we were experts in laying the landmines.

MR WAGENER: As you sit here today, Mr Mncube, how do you feel about this landmine operation?