Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And in 1990, is it correct that you and the other applicants confronted Mr Mkhize?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Please repeat the question.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you and the other applicants who are here before the Committee, confronted Mr Mkhize on the 7th of November 1990?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us briefly how you came across him and whether there was any conspiracy to do anything evil to him?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: To start, at what time did you see Mr Mkhize on the 7th of November 1990?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I was called van Fanie Mbutho from my home.  He had come to inform me that Mr Mkhize was at his home.  Because Mkhize had been giving us trouble, I took my gun and some ammunition and I left with Fanie and he went to fetch his gun as well.
	Thereafter we met Mr Hlongwa as well as Jogolo, Jogolo Cele and Mabuno Hlongwa.  I had a shotgun, Fanie had a shotgun as well.  Palela had a home made gun, a shotgun, Mabuno also had a shotgun.  Fanie Mbutho had a tomahawk,  Jogolo Cele had a bush knife.

MR NGUBANE: Yes?  And then did you proceed to where Sixtus Fana Mkhize was?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, we proceeded there and we confronted him there.

MR NGUBANE: The person that told you about Mr Mkhize was Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho, the third applicant, is that correct?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, you said Mbutho, you mean Cele?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Mbutho.

MR LAX: Sorry, was Mbutho the one who told you about Mkhize?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay, I am getting confused now.

MR NGUBANE: Right, and you said that Mr Mkhize was at his home, is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Were there other people of his family that were there?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: When you arrived at his home, what happened?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I and the comrades that I was with, Palela Hlongwa took Mbutho's gun and then Mbutho had the tomahawk.
	We divided ourselves into two groups, Jogolo, Mabuno and Palela Hlongwa stood on the upper side of the house, and the other three stood on the lower end.
	At the time, we found him sitting outside the door.  I started shooting him.  I shot at him, he did not fall down.  Mabuno approached as well as Palela and they also started shooting.
	Fanie Mbutho also came around and attacked him.  At that time, he was laying down.  The police and IFP members came and they chased us and we fled.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, we have talked about Mabuno, who is that one now?  Is he one of the applicants or is he someone who is not before the Committee?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The police could not apprehend him, we do not know where he is as of now.

MR NGUBANE: All right, when you say you shot Mr Mkhize, where about did you shoot him, do you know?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In the stomach.

MR NGUBANE: How many times did you shoot him?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Once.

MR NGUBANE: Did he fall when you shot him?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He didn't fall instantly.  He staggered.  He didn't fall at this time, he tried to run away, and Palela and Mabuno came and shot at him, initially he used the bush knife.

MR NGUBANE: Did you or any of the applicants, attempt to shoot or injure any of the members of Mr Mkhize's family?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: No, we didn't, because we actually wanted himself.  He is the one who was bothering us, there was no need for us to attack the family, because they didn't know anything, even the children and the entire family.
	We wouldn't shoot them, because they were respectful.  The family was respectful and they were in line with us.  The entire house was in good terms with us.  He was the only IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Now you reached a stage when the Inkatha and the police came and chased you away.  Did you run away?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: And after running away, what did you do, did you hide or what was the position?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: When we were running away, we went to a place called Hlanzeni.  At that time it was an ANC stronghold.  We went there to hide there in the forest a bit.  That is where we hid ourselves.  The police were looking for us and they couldn't locate us.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that you were subsequently arrested?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: How many days after the incident, if you can recall?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I was arrested in 1991, it was somewhere in July 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Msani, sorry Mr Ngubane, at approximately what time of the day, sorry, at approximately what time of the day did the, at approximately what time of the day did the attack take place on the deceased?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It was on a Wednesday, on the 7th of November 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it daylight or night time?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It was during the day at about ten o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in any way hide your face by wearing balaclavas or any such like item of head gear?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Myself, I was wearing a head stetson, applicant Palela Hlongwa did not have balaclavas.  Fanie Mbutho had a hat.  Mabuno had a hat and Jogolo Cele had no hat.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, and then you have told the Committee that you appeared in court and you were convicted and sentenced to an effective term of imprisonment of 20 years, is that correct?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: And I will just read to you what the Judge said when he considered sentencing you, that will be on page 120, starting from line 9 to line 23 Mr Chairman.
	The Judge said it is further clear that at the time there was hostility between members of the ANC and their supporters and members of the Inkatha Freedom Party.  That situation existed then and it exists today to a perhaps even greater extent.
	It is clear that there are many killings daily between members of these two factions.  I do not suggest that this is the policy of either of the parties.  What started as a political rivalry had however degenerated into a situation close to anarchy.
	I have regard to the fact that these young men would obviously be influenced by these feelings that existed and were rife in the townships at the time, and it would appear from accused 1's mother's evidence, that there may have been a particular feeling of hostility against the deceased.
	Firstly, accused 1 in that case, is it correct that it was Mr Palela Bekhisenzo Hlongwa, is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you have heard what I have read to you what the Judge said, is it a fair summary of the situation that took place in your area in Macubeni, is it right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: You have come here to apply for amnesty, is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Is there anything that you would like to, well, before I come to that, looking back at this incident in which you were involved, what are your feelings now that there is a relatively quiet political situation?  Have you had time to reflect on the incident?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I sympathise with the family.  I apologise to the Mkhize family.  I actually sympathise with almost everyone, the community, the IFP, the ANC because what we have been fighting for, we have actually achieved, that is our freedom.  I sympathise with the Mkhize family.

MR NGUBANE: Have you or anyone of the applicants, made attempts to get contact with the family members of the deceased?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Right, just tell us what attempts have been made to get contact with the families of the deceased?