Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir, I would then like to go to the following point - the Sunday morning when Myburgh, Barnard and Le Roux arrived there - that was late the Sunday morning, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes it is.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And Koper Myburgh tells you that you must accompany him to Koesterfontein to help because they are busy to build car bombs, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, it was an order on behalf of the Staff Generals.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is what Myburgh said to you.  Did you then go to Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: Not at that stage, no.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You only later that day with the two Botha's you went to Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is the Sunday, Sunday the 24th, correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, it is.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And, if I can just interrupt myself there, how far is Ventersdorp from Koesterfontein and how far is Koesterfontein down to the farm in Magaliesberg?

J H VLOK: Koesterfontein to Ventersdorp, I cannot say exactly I think it's plus minus 80 kilometres.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: From Ventersdorp to the Koesterfontein - from Koesterfontein to the game farm?

J H VLOK: I do not know, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you not go to the game farm at any stage?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you know where the game farm was?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Let me put it this way.  What district is Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: Magaliesberg area, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You and the two Botha's then went to Koesterfontein and met the others there and you said that the Sunday afternoon he was busy building a car bomb.  In what car was he busy building this bomb?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, he was building a bomb on top of a table that had to be placed in the trailer.  That is what Cliff Barnard told me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: In other words it was a normal bomb, it was not specifically a car bomb?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know anything about bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, if it was in a trailer or a caravan or a car, it was still a bomb.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If you say so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We know what this person is talking about.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The point that I'd like to make is that it is the trailer bomb that was being built because there is still a car bomb and that is the Jan Smit's bomb and that is the point I'd like to make.

CHAIRPERSON: But we know that this witness gave evidence about the Germiston bomb and everybody knows that it was in a trailer.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: It was so yes, but he uses the word "car" bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: We do not want to split hairs now.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Koekemoer was building this bomb, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you know Koekemoer before?

J H VLOK: Yes I did.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: How long have you known him?

J H VLOK: At that stage, that is the Sunday the 24th, I knew that he was a member of the Ystergarde.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What rank did he have within the Ystergarde?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember, at that stage we did not carry our insignia or ranks but I assume he was a Lieutenant.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: How did you know that he was part of the Ystergarde?

J H VLOK: Because I'd seen him at previous opportunities.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did he wear an Ystergarde uniform, how long was he a member of the Ystergarde before this date the 24th?

J H VLOK: I do not know.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But Sir,you worked at head office.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at various meetings many members were present and you cannot remember all the faces or how long he's been a member of that organisation.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were given instructions to mix diesel and a another substance?

J H VLOK: Mr Cliff Barnard told me to help him - he would use me, he would explain to me and give me instructions.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Nicolas Barnard said what to you, I'm sorry?

J H VLOK: Mr Cliff Barnard gave me the order or instruction to assist Mr Koekemoer and where he would use us or where he needed us.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When did de Wet arrive at Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was that the Sunday?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson, that was the Sunday when he arrived.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Koekemoer, according to your evidence, showed you how to activate the bomb, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: There were two activation mechanisms, one at the towbar and one in the vehicle itself?

J H VLOK: That is correct, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was it the same type of detonator?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Explain to me, explain to the Committee how you would detonate this bomb or activate it?

J H VLOK: He gave me a battery, he said that I must put one wire on the one pole and the other on the other pole and then the bomb will be activated or detonated.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, but how?

J H VLOK: I do not know, I carry no knowledge about bombs.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But the point I would like to make, it was very simple, you've got two wires, you've got two terminals on a battery, you attached them to these poles and the bomb will explode?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you said the same mechanism was used at the trailer as well as within the vehicle that would pull this trailer?

J H VLOK: Yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If it was so simple, do you think it was necessary to take someone extra in order to activate or detonate that bomb?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why?

J H VLOK: Because Jan de Wet was driving and my instruction was that I must detonate the bomb if we would meet up with a roadblock.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But, Sir,you could have activated from within a vehicle, that was the whole idea?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So it was not necessary to take someone with?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, my instruction was that I must drive with Jan de Wet and I must accompany him to Germiston and also to operate the radio.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did de Wet help to build the bomb?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can remember.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Look at paragraph 30.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, are we talking about the same weekend?  Is it the same weekend when this witness stayed overnight?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Would you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same weekend that this witness stayed over the night at this farm, he was sent from the office, he accompanied the people and early the next morning he went back to the office?  When did all of this happen?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is the point I'm trying to make - as I understand the evidence, he was told on Sunday to go to Koesterfontein, he then went to Koesterfontein with the two Bothas.  At Koesterfontein he helped Koekemoer to build this bomb in the trailer and the same evening if I understand him correctly, de Wet arrived there and the next morning, that is the point I'd like to make, the Monday before the Germiston bomb, left Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Mr Chairperson, the point is that Koekemoer and this applicant then loaded sand in the trailer to help with the explosion.  That is how I understood it and that is what I would like to clear up with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Clear it up then.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Is this how I explained it, the occurrences, the sequence of events.  The sequence of events was that on that Sunday, the morning, Koekemoer, Barnard and Le Roux came to you?

J H VLOK: Etienne le Roux, Barnard and Abraham Myburgh, they were there.