Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct, because these other people died before the ANC Youth League was launched.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, I'm coming to the fact that Moses died in the same way as the other people.  There is no indication that he died merely because he was a member of the ANC Youth League?  What do you say to that question?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not agree with you.

MR SIBANYONI: Why not?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that Moses was killed because they knew that he was one of the supporters in the Youth League in the village.  Like I have already explained, the traditional doctor who was helping him, that is Mashyani, did explain the reasons that led to Moses' disappearance and his ultimate death.

MR SIBANYONI: But the way you explained the condition under which his body was found, it looked like an ordinary muti killing.  What do you say about that?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I can agree with you only because I believe that the people who did that, they did that to destroy evidence so that people could not know why they killed him.

MR SIBANYONI: And according to the judgment he was hung with his neck on a tree in the mountain, is that the position?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.
	Just tell us very briefly about the mental condition of Moses - very briefly.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He was a healthy person mentally, because there was nothing that made me to suspect that he was not mentally well.

ADV SANDI: About how old was he?  Was he working, was he employed, what was he doing?  What was his occupation?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He was born in 1966.  He worked at the Impala gold fields in Rustenburg, in the mine security section.

ADV SANDI: According to your evidence-in-chief you said Moses gave you certain names of people whom he believed were performing witchcraft against him.  What did you do with that information that was given to you by Moses?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I kept that information to myself because I did not have the powers to say anything because I was not a parent.  The person who was responsible was Jan Phasha, who was Moses' brother, and he was the person who was consulting with the traditional doctors and liaised with the relatives.  So I compared the information that we were told by Jan, and I compared it to the one that I got from Moses, and I realised that there were similarities.

ADV SANDI: Are you saying that you did not even convey this information to Jan Phasha, who was busy going up and down trying to find out what could have happened to Moses?  You didn't tell him about this?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I did not.

ADV SANDI: Is it the first time today that you are taking this information out of your chest?  You've never said it to anyone after it was conveyed to you by Moses, even after he had disappeared and was found dead somewhere in the bushes?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any reason for doing so?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I do have.

ADV SANDI: Can you give us that reason.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Because of our belief - a person must be exposed by the traditional doctors, I was afraid to reveal that because I had not yet consulted with the traditional doctor and the people would ask me how do I know that, because that is the information that should be revealed by the traditional doctors.  That is why I became afraid to reveal that to anybody.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but did you ever ask Moses why he believed that these people were performing witchcraft against him?  Did you ask him how he knew this?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I did ask him.

ADV SANDI: What did he say?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He told me that he is able to see that like a person who is a prophet, that is why he said to me that it would not be easy for me to see what he was seeing at that time.

ADV SANDI: Can you please give us names of anyone in the village who was killed by a witch-doctor, in whatever manner that may have been applicable in any case.  Just give us names.  Before Moses disappeared and after Moses had disappeared.  Just give us names.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: One of the people that I remember was a certain boy called Mtso Taboga Mashabela.  He was struck by lightening.

ADV SANDI: Is it your story that the witches in the village were targeting any particular people?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not believe that they would attack any person.

ADV SANDI: I'm not sure if you understood my question.  Were these molois, these witches, targeting any particular kind of people in the community?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: According to my belief they would not bewitch any person, they knew who to bewitch.

ADV SANDI: Who did they bewitch?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They were mostly targeting the youth and a person who is progressing well in life, who is able to attain certain things in life, like for example, education.  He would be one of the people who would be targeted by the witches.

ADV SANDI: In other words, you're saying they would carry out witchcraft against a particular target out of jealousy?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: It can be so, but I have no certainty of that, because I would not know what their motives are.

ADV SANDI: Yes.  You're not - please correct me if I'm wrong, you're not suggesting that the actions of yourself, the actions of your co-applicants and members of the crowd were politically motivated?  That is not what you are suggesting, are you?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not understand the question well.

ADV SANDI: Okay, let me put the question differently.  Tell us what is political about the events in which yourself, your co-applicants and members of the crowd were involved in.  What is political about that?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Politics are involved because after the chief had prevented the youths from organising themselves as they wanted to launch the branch in the village, the disappearance of Moses - one of the reports that we got from Jan Phasha was that Moses was killed because he was one of the youth who was involved in the launching of the ANC Youth League in our area.  That is how we associated that with politics.

ADV SANDI: Are you suggesting that there was a conspiracy between the chief and the witches in the village?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is my suspicion, or let me say, I believe so.

ADV SANDI: Why did you believe so?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The reason is that the chief, after a decision was taken that a traditional doctor should be consulted, that is the one who used the mirror, the chief went out with another group which was sent to go and see that traditional doctor, and when they arrived there the chief prevented that traditional doctor from carrying out his duties.

ADV SANDI: I'm afraid I've tried very hard to follow you, but I cannot follow you.  Maybe the last question I should ask you, is it not the position here that you were bitter and angry that this sort of thing had happened to your brother?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: It is so, but I became more angry when Abraham was also killed, because I believe that if I was angry from the beginning the community wouldn't have been involved.  I managed to contain myself and not reveal what I heard from Moses.  That shows that I wasn't angry at that time, I only became angry when Abraham was killed.

ADV SANDI: Why were you angry when Abraham was killed?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: What made me angry was that I was told by Moses that Abraham was also involved, or was one of the people who were alleged to be witches, while on the other side Abraham said that he would not be able to help find Moses.  That is one of the things that made me angry.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Just one issue.  Did you kill Abraham, the deceased, did you kill him for a political reason?