Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR MAKANJEE: You said in your evidence that the first time you became aware that the men abducted from the manse were being held against their will, was when you heard rumours.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Was when I heard?

MR MAKANJEE: The rumours, rumours.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, yes.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you first hear these rumours?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think when the first church leaders or community leaders came to express their concerns.

MR MAKANJEE: And at that stage you still did not see fit to actually question the men, whether they wanted to be there or not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, as it was stated here, I think it was round about the fourth when I was visited by the community leaders.

MR MAKANJEE: Would this not have been the simplest way to deal with this problem?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I dealt with it by enquiring from Richardson who was more senior on the premises.

MR MAKANJEE: According to your evidence you released the men after meeting Dr Motlana.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: Now, Dr Motlana's evidence was that you released the men ten days after your visit?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It must have been when he himself came to collect them.

MR MAKANJEE: Are you saying that Dr Motlana was mistaken in what he testified regarding the facts surrounding the release of the boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not really ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... sure of the exact ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... date, Sir.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, my recollection of the evidence by Dr Motlana is that he recalls that he went to his house and his wife then advised him about certain children that had come there, but he himself remembers taking them there, it was ten days thereafter.  So, we do not know when these children would have gone to Mr Motlana's house and seen Mr Motlana's wife.

MR MAKANJEE: Ma'am let me put ... (intervention).

DR RANDERA: Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: I just want, I think my recollection is that Dr Motlana said that he actually went to the house, did not ask to see the children, was told that the children were there and that ten days later.  So, he did actually go to the house and I agree with you that he did not see the children at his house, but there was a ten day intervening period.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Now that we have clarified that aspect, I just want to put it to you that the reason for the boys being or the young men being released ten days after Dr Motlana's visit is that you waited for the injuries which they sustained, and I will read out the injuries for your own information,
"On Mr Mekgwe there  weretramtrack abrasions, bruising
of the ribs, tram-track abrasions on his back and a laceration on his forehead and on Mr Mono there were healing tram-track abrasions, all characterised by new, slightly pinkish scar tissue, circular healing scars, dorsal aspect of left wrist and ...",
there were various injuries, in other words, to them.  What I am putting to you is that you released the boys ten days after the visit by Dr Motlana, because you wanted them to have sufficient time to let the injuries heal.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not even Dr Motlana led evidence to the effect that I withheld the children from him deliberately.

MR MAKANJEE: I ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He himself said he did not ask to see them and that is not true.  If I had not seen the injuries, why would I wait for injuries to heal before he picked up the children if I had not seen them?

MR MAKANJEE: So, I, okay, let us just go on to Mr Ikaneng.  I noticed that in your evidence today you chose not to deal with the evidence of Mr Ikaneng, that you assaulted him in your office in October 1988.  May I assume that the reason for you not discussing this is that you have admitted to committing this assault?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that is absolute nonsense, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: So, why ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not assault Ikaneng and it is a ridiculous suggestion that I would have to assault him personally when evidence was being led here that I brewed gangsters in the house.

MR MAKANJEE: My question, then, to you is why at the time when you were discussing Mr Ikaneng, did you not deny the allegation that you had assaulted in October of 1988?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, first of all, if you can leave the, maybe push it away, because I notice you, when you want to emphasise a point, you bump.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is the Richardson phobia, he was doing it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am sorry, I lost your question.

MR MAKANJEE: Sure.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was about Ikaneng.

MR MAKANJEE: Yes, my question to you was you are represented by counsel, did you not discuss that aspect of Mr Ikaneng's evidence with regard to your being led on that aspect, would you or not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I merely responded to questions that were put across by my counsel.  I have no problem at all in answering that if you should wish to ask a question. (end of side 4A).

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, can you tell me why or do you know of any reason that he would lie about the assaults on him by yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you knew township life, it did not matter who I was, I would not dare attempt to assault a young man of that age.

MR MAKANJEE: So, you cannot put forward a reason for why he would make this allegation?  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is a lie.

MR MAKANJEE: So, Mr Ikaneng, Mr Mekgwe, Mr Mono, Mr Dempsey, Mr Kgase, Mr Morgan, Mr Richardson, Ms Falati have  all conspired to lie and implicate you.  Is that what I am understanding you to mean?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They have lied, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They would know the reasons why.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell us the reasons why, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have just said they would know the reasons why.

MR MAKANJEE: I just want to ask one more question concerning your statements earlier in your evidence in-chief that guerrillas were sent to Mr Richardson's house, because your house was like a police station and it was unsafe.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: But, Ma'am, maybe I should point out this contradiction then.  You stated that the boys who were seeking at your house were running away from the security branch.  Surely, that is as equal a danger as having guerrillas in your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you lived under those times, I was not the only one who was performing that task of looking after children who were running away from the system.

MR MAKANJEE: Yes, Ma'am, but my question is your reason for sending the guerrillas to Mr Richardson's house was that your house was not safe.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They were trained guerrillas, these were youths just running away from the system in the township and they decided to seek refuge in the same manner they sought refuge at Paul Verryn's residence.

MR MAKANJEE: But, Ma'am, by implication they are trained guerrillas, they would be safer than the youths who were running from the security branch at your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not even you believe in that logic.

MR MAKANJEE: I do.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You would not and you are so South African, I can see you would not.

DR BORAINE: How are we getting on there?  Are you moving towards the end?

MR MAKANJEE: I have nothing further.

DR BORAINE: Nothing further, thank you very much.