Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

THOBELA MLAMBISA: As I have already said that I was a member of APLA and a member of PAC even up till date.  At that time, during the time we were attacking the golf course in King William's Town, I wanted to make sure that all the cadres would be free to escape and no casualties and my job was to secure them inside the Golf Club and I had to ensure that because where I actually parked the Jetta, I did not escape leaving the cadres, I tried to drive slowly to make sure that they all get a chance to get into the car.
ADV. SANDI: Did you have any weapon in your hands?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes sir.
ADV.SANDI: What weapon was that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It was a 9 mm. pistol.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well now Mr Mlambisa, are you telling this Committee that in all what you're Committee is that you participated in the incident at Golf Club willingly because you believe in what you were doing?  Is that correct?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: That's correct sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The Jetta vehicle that you used was taken by force in Butterworth from the owner.  Is that correct?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: What do you mean when you say it was taken by force?

MR PRIOR: Well the owner didn't give the vehicle to you freely and voluntarily, did he?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: That is not correct, we requested him to give us the car but asked in such a manner that we were not threatening him, we just asked him to give us the car and he would get the car at a certain time but he became stubborn and he threatened us and Comrade Thembelani ended up pointing him with a gun to threaten him so that he can give us the car.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you say that is not taking a car by force when you point a gun at the owner so he will give you the car?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: To take a car by force, we were not actually taking the car by force, it was not our car it was his but he was stubborn and we were forced to point him with a gun so that he can give us the car.

MR PRIOR: Well it sounds to me that - I don't think it takes the matter any further - it just seems to me that you did what you liked there, you didn't respect the view or the wishes of the owner.  But in any event, you then burnt the car on a Tuesday, you actually destroyed it.  The Tuesday after the attack you destroyed the car, it was burnt out, was it not?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: What you are saying is confusing me sir, I'm going to address you as sir.  I was not even there when the car was being burnt down, I'm talking about when the car was taken from the owner.

MR PRIOR: Yes and I'm moving on to the Tuesday, you may not have been there but you heard the evidence of your leader, your unit leader Mr Xundu yesterday and Mr Ntintile's evidence this morning.  The vehicle wasn't taken back or wasn't left where the owner could obtain back or cede it back into his possession - it was destroyed.

MR PRIOR: I apologise Advocate Prior, my role ends after -when the time I left for Butterworth.  When the decision was taken that the car would be taken to Queenstown and it would be destroyed there, I don't know anything about that, I only know about the time when I took the car to Butterworth.  If you ask me about that I'll answer you.

MR PRIOR: I hear what you say, it was beyond your control - is that what you're saying?

MR LAX: He's going a bit further, he's saying it's beyond his knowledge.

MR PRIOR: And his knowledge, yes.  I simply wrapped up what he was saying.
	I want to refer you to page 61 of the bundle, the document that we obtained and it said "aristocratic democratic rules of APLA"  - 15 rules and one of the rules that strikes me is the fourth rule that says:  "Do not forcibly take or demand anything from the masses of the people."  Are you familiar with that rule?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes I familiar with the rule.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, my question is, sorry do you want to add anything to that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: You haven't asked a question.

MR PRIOR: Yes, alright, let me ask the question.  Was this rule not applied or considered when you pointed a gun at the owner of the Jetta vehicle in Butterworth?  It seems to me that your unit just forgot about the rules.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I'm going to say that to you Advocate Prior, we didn't actually threaten the guy at first but we actually requested him to give us his car - we had a mission to undertake.  After the mission was completed we would take the car back to him but he refused, even the police are like that when they arrest you.  If you don't tell the truth what they do they try to investigate you and if you refuse to tell the truth they will arrest you.  Even the advocate and Judge Wilson know that such things are happening.  We initially asked him but we didn't actually tell him that we would kill him but we were just threatening him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're pointing a gun at him to make him give you his car.  You've told us that.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: To me and I think to everyone else in this hall that means that you forcibly took it from him.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: After we had requested him to borrow us his car that's when we decided to point him with a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: If you mean that once you asked for something then everybody has to give, they're not allowed to say no, is that what you're trying to tell us?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what do you mean, you asked for the car and he said no, he was stubborn and then what did you do?  You took it from him by pointing a gun.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: We threatened him.
ADV. GCABASHE: And that is a taking by force, this is what the Chairman is putting to you.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: That is so.

MR PRIOR: Let's go a bit further, wasn't the threat even more than just pointing a gun it was letting him believe that if he didn't give you the vehicle, you would use the firearm.  In other words inspiring some fear of injury or even death in his mind?  Isn't that closer the truth?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: To clarify this further, the owner of the car, we actually threatened him after he refused to give us the car we took him by force and we drove inside the car and we drove the car and Comrade Xundu gave me the keys and we drove the car up to as far as Tsomo and we actually dropped him there so that he couldn't get a chance to get to the police so that we can continue with our journey.  I'm trying to say our aim was not to kill him.  All we needed was to get his car and he would get his car at a later stage.  We threatened to kill him, that's when we decided to take him with us in the car and we left him somewhere on the way to King William's Town.

MR PRIOR: I want to just move on to the planning of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps before you move on Mr Prior you could ask him about rules 8 and 9?

MR PRIOR: Rule 8 says "Return in good condition anything you borrow and pay and " I think that should be or replace.  "Pay or replace anything you damage."

CHAIRPERSON: 9.  You have difficulty, getting - No. 8 is
"Return in good condition anything you borrow" and 9 is:
"Pay for or replace anything you damage."

MR PRIOR: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Can you maybe comment on that in this situation about the Jetta.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I think Comrade has explained this thing if I heard him clearly that his intention was to take the car back to Queenstown and leave the keys perhaps under the seat or whatever but because he was under pressure, there are a lot of roadblocks, there was confusion but his intention was to take the car to Queenstown.  That rule No. 8 was actually his intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I cannot understand, perhaps you can explain, I should have asked him, once he became under this pressure and realised the police were looking for him that he was under pressure, why didn't he just abandon the car in Tembasa and drive away in your car?