Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Commissioner.  I think the question you have put to me is a fair one and that is, if I understood you correctly, and that is whether there were any changes in methods to deal with situations.  I can say to you that certainly at the time when the ANC were unbanned and other parties - when the negotiating process started and when I came to the Police the whole attitude of the Police was to use minimum force to handle situations.  But it must also be remembered that at that very crucial time in the history of our country it was essential that we have a climate in which negotiations could take place.  So we also had a duty to try and maintain order in our country.
 Coming back closer to what happened at Bisho, I can say to you if you think that on that day we should have taken away all the weapons, there was no way that bar creating a war that we could take the weapons away from the Brigadier's army.  I also want to say to you that there was no way in which the Police could search 18,000 people, I think that's the number they say that were there that day, to find and confiscate weapons.  There are certain situations that it's just not possible to do that and that was one of them. You couldn't, with the number of policemen available and policewomen do that, it's just not possible.
 We must also say to each other that at that stage it was not only the defence force in possession of firearms, but many of the people, not part of the old regime, were also in possession of firearms.  I mean AK47's was a daily 
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thing for us to see.  So it would not have been possible for us to do that on that specific day.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.  Reverend Xundu I welcome you, before I hand over to you, I believe that you are not feeling too well today, but thank you for coming and I hand over to you.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Sir I would like to ask this question to Mr Kriel.  Allegations at the time like the allegations that there was a third force, which was always denied, which has been proved true, there were allegations at the time that there was an RSA covert operations run by International Researches in Ciskei, I just want to make sure if there's an element of truth in that allegation.
 The second question ...(intervention)

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I am sorry can you just again repeat the first question please Reverend?

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  We would like to know, because there is an allegation like I said there has always been the allegation that there is a third force element in the trains which has now been proved true, that there's an allegation that there was an RSA, RSA had a covert operation run by International Researches in Ciskei, we just want to make sure if that is the truth.
 And further, one would like to know from you, if you can remember, how you responded to a media briefing or a statement that was made to the media after the shooting, because there is a statement that I think, if I remember rightly, the fact that those who were shot got what they deserved, coming from you specifically?  I just want to clear that if you can remember if that was the case, thank EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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you.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No certainly I cannot remember that I would have said anything like that.  When people were killed I didn't derive any joy from that whatsoever.
 About the first part I am not aware of any covert operation that took place in the Ciskei, but I am not going to say that nothing like that ever happened.  That I cannot say because things happened, unfortunately.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Reverend Xundu.  I just want to assess our time.  As you can see we can debate for the rest of the day, but we have got some time constraints so I just want to assess what remains, what's in the heart of my colleagues, I don't want to cut them unnecessarily.  Advocate Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will ask my questions very briefly and I will request that the answers be very short and straightforward and to the point in the interests of time.  Let me start by asking, there is a pamphlet at page 2 of your submission to which you refer, according to your submission that pamphlet that is at page 2, that pamphlet was distributed in this area by Nehawu or the ANC/SACP alliance, can you tell us where and when did you get this document?  Did you believe its contents?  And where is that document now?  And have you been getting documents of this kind from the Ciskei area and who was supplying you with these documents?
 The other question I want to ask, once again I must say in the interests of time, before the tragedy of the 7th of September 1992 there were consistent reports from this area of gross human rights violations, did your government believe those allegations from the people of this area and 
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what steps were taken by your government to ensure that those gross human rights violations come to a stop? ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Sorry Commissioner can I just ask which specific reference are you referring to now in terms of your second question?

ADV SANDI: I am not referring to any annexure, this is just a question about the gross human rights violations that were taking place in the Ciskei area, the question is did your government believe that such gross human rights violations were taking place and what steps were taken by your government to try and bring such violations to a stop?
 My third question concerns the alliance between your government and the government of Gqozo.  In a letter dated 31 August 1992 from Mr Gqozo and addressed to the then State President, F W de Klerk, he refers to an alliance which he wants to know if it has come to an end.  Can you please give us some light what was the nature of this alliance?  When did it begin and when did it stop?  And also - maybe I should stop there, otherwise I will be bombarding you with too many questions.