Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: What I expressed was that we are leaders and people complain to us, the situation is clear, we should try - decide what steps should be taken to prevent this from continuing.

MR BERGER: So you never mentioned an attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I don't know how to explain this to you Mr Berger.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, when you speak, would you please speak slowly so that the Interpreter can interpret everything that you say.  There is some of the things that are not interpreted because you speak fast.  Be slow.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I will try to do so.

MR BERGER: My question Mr Buthelezi was, what did you say at the caucus?  You have told the Committee that you said we need to do something, the people are angry.  Is that all that you said or did you say something more?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: What I said was that we should do something.  I did not say anything else.  We were agreed that these people should be attacked.

MR BERGER: But you never mentioned an attack, you said we should do something?  You didn't mention an attack, right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I have been explaining the same thing Mr Berger, the fact that we made a reference to the effect that they should be attacked, meant that there would be an attack.

MR LAX: I think just to be fair, you are speaking very vaguely now Mr Buthelezi.    Mr Berger is asking you to be particular, to be careful because he is saying that it is important to you.
	That is why he is covering this thing carefully with you.  If he is asking you did you say that there must be an attack or did you just say that we must do something about the situation, there is a difference between the two and you need to be clear to all of us so that you can help us understand what you actually did at that caucus.  Do you understand?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Try and be particular if possible, which will help all of us and we will get through this thing a lot quicker.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I will try to explain.  I did express the opinion that they should be attacked in the caucus.  Yes, I did express that opinion that they should be attacked.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to get some clarity on this point.  At that caucus, were you discussing particularly the people in Boipatong or were you discussing the situation in the whole Vaal Triangle?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: At that caucus, we were discussing Tserela township because it had become difficult to go anywhere because of the situation that was happening at that time.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi.  I now understand from your evidence at that caucus, when you talk about Tserela, you are referring to Boipatong, that at that caucus you expressed a desire that Boipatong should be attacked at some time soon, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And the others present at that meeting, each and every one of them, Mr Qunchu, Mr Khumalo and Mr Mkhize, agreed with you and you agreed with them, that Boipatong should be attacked some time soon?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.  As I mentioned before, they did not dispute what I was suggesting, therefore yes, they accepted that opinion that we should attack.

MR BERGER: Very shortly after that, there was a mass meeting of hostel residents, do you remember the one that was held approximately two weeks before the attack, roundabout the 3rd of June 1992, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I mentioned before, I know of a meeting that were held on the 13th, to discuss the rally that was going to be held at Jabulani.

MR BERGER: Just bear with me for a moment.  Do you remember giving evidence about a meeting, a mass meeting that was addressed by amongst others, Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, just to be fair to the witness, was that - the evidence that he gave, was that here or was it at some other forum?

MR BERGER: No it was here, I think when my learned friend, Ms Tanzer was questioning the witness.  Yes, the question was about a meeting two weeks before the attack, and Mr Buthelezi said that at that meeting Mr Mkhize spoke, Mr Khumalo spoke and Mtwana Zulu spoke.  Do you remember that meeting Mr Buthelezi?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember that meeting.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that that meeting was approximately two weeks before the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be certain of the date, I would not be in a position to explain that.

MR BERGER: Well, when do you think it was approximately?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have just explained, the meeting that I still remember quite well, is the one that took place on the 13th, to discuss our trip to Johannesburg.  This other meeting where the Prince addressed the meeting, I cannot really recall the date on which it took place.

MR BERGER: This meeting on the 13th, that wasn't the meeting that was addressed by Prince Vanana Zulu, was it?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, it was not that same one.

MR BERGER: It was before that meeting that Prince Vanana Zulu spoke?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is true.

MR BERGER: But it was after the caucus decision, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I will not be able to tell about the timing.  When we held that caucus meeting, we did not record that.

MR BERGER: Okay.  When was the decision taken that now there is going to be an attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did explain that I heard the alarm going off on the 17th.  Ii do not know when the decision, the actual decision to attack, was taken.

MR BERGER: Let me refer you to page 47 of the papers, paragraph 11(b).  You said in your application that and I am translating from the Afrikaans, an instruction was given by leaders of the IFP living at the kwaMadala hostel on approximately the 10th and the 17th of June 1992, that Boipatong must be attacked.
	What I am telling you is that in your own application you say that on approximately the 10th of June 1992, there was this instruction that Boipatong must be attacked.  At what meeting was that instruction issued?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: When I refer to the leadership of the IFP, I was actually referring to us, myself and Mr Khumalo.  As I have just explained we held a caucus meeting, I do not remember us taking this idea forward to the other residents, that we should attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: There is a difference between a decision and an order and you say that an order was given on approximately the 10th of June 1992.  What I am putting to you is that an order was given before the attack, days before the attack on Boipatong, an order was given to residents that they were going to attack, a decision had been taken to attack Boipatong.
	Do you dispute that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I explained before, I may have written this which was a mistake.  As I mentioned before, I did not have knowledge on the process of the TRC and since realising that I have to divulge the entire truth, I have furnished the information on the caucus meeting that we had.

MR BERGER: The difficulty that I have with your answer Mr Buthelezi is that your Counsel this morning, when he led you and got you to confirm these documents, said that these documents had been explained to you yet again and yet you confirmed them, yet again.
	It doesn't help you to say that you decided now to tell the truth, because even this morning you were confirming documents that you say contain mistakes.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was true at the time, because I signed, I appended my signature.

MR BERGER: You made certain changes this morning to those documents, I remember one, the date being changed.  You made another change when you said with reference to your family being killed in Boipatong, you said no, it wasn't your family that was killed in Boipatong, it was IFP members who were being killed in Boipatong, do you remember that?
	You made changes, but you didn't change the points that I am now pointing out to you?