Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR PRIOR: Good morning Mr Chairman on the 16th of April 1998 the amnesty application of Zama Thutha, amnesty application 2891/96 and Luvuyo Kulman, amnesty application 2892/96.
	The application arises out of the death of Mr Mike Meyers and his daughter Donne Meyers which occurred during 1993 in the Umtata district. I appear as the evidence leader for the Amnesty Committee, Advocate P C Prior for the applicants Mr L Mbandazayo and for the victims Mr Neels Botma. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: One question I have Mr Prior, you gave the numbers of the amnesty applications. They differ from the numbers on the affidavits. You have said 2891 and 2892. The number that I have on the application is 2883 which is the number on the affidavit and the number on the second application is 1638 which is the number on the affidavit.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman I notice that. I do not know how that occurred. May I ask then that on the covering sheet of the bundles be amended suitably or accordingly. Mr Chairman I wish to place on record that bundles have been prepared documents and have been distributed to all interested parties, may they be marked at this stage for easy reference? Could I ask that the first bundle that was prepared, that is the amnesty applications plus the court judgment on sentence be marked A and there was a supplementary bundle. May that be marked A1 or shall we give it the next number?

CHAIRPERSON: B.

MR PRIOR: Then I wish to mark a bundle of photographs, a set of photographs one to nine, could that be marked C. Those are the photo's relating to Donne Meyers. And a medico-legal post mortem report on the body of Donne Meyers could that be marked D. And then we have the affidavits which were handed up this morning of the applicants. Mr Kulman if his affidavit could be marked E and the affidavit of Mr Thutha marked F. Thank you Mr Chairman. Sorry Mr Chairman there was reference made to one Thanduxolo in the applications. I understand my information that Thanduxolo has died. He died during I understand the shoot out at Da Gama during March of 1994. I think he was referred to as TNT.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I would like just to correct that Mr Chairman. He is not the one who was at Da Gama, he is not the one at Da Gama Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Well maybe my learned friend can during the course of these proceedings find out who Thanduxolo was and produce if he can a death certificate.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he necessarily dead?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman according to my information Thanduxolo is the same person who was called Mandla and Pawa during my investigation. He has many names who was an administrator in the office of the PAC. That is information I have myself. I have investigated the name of Thanduxolo. I went to the members of the high command. They told that it is Mandla who they know was called Thanduxolo, was also known as Thanduxolo he was in Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he now working in the office of the PAC?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman he is no longer working Mr Chairman. He was integrated but I understand he was discharged because he was ill. And he subsequently died. He was shot at Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh he is dead?

MR MBANDAZAYO: He is dead Mr Chairman.
While you are about it, could you place yourself on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I confirm that I appear on behalf of both applicants in this matter, Kulman and Thutha, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTMA: As it pleases Mr Chairman I do confirm that I appear on behalf of the family in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Your name please?

MR BOTMA: Advocate N Botma, D E C Botma.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee remains the same with myself, Judge Wilson as chairman; Advocate Gcabashe still acts and Mr Sandi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman the first applicant is Luvuyo Kenneth Kulman. And I would request the Committee to swear him in.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kulman would you please stand? If you could just switch you microphone on by pressing the red button in front of you. Do you have any objection to taking an oath?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No objection

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kulman do you confirm that this affidavit which is before the Committee was made by you and you abide by it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I do confirm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman as usual I will not got through the affidavit. I will go through certain portion of the affidavit just for the applicant to clarify. Mr Chairman I will start with paragraph 4. In your affidavit you are saying that you joined PAC 1989 through Azania, underwent military training in the Zimbabwe in 1990. Can you tell the Committee about your training in the Zimbabwe, how did you go to Zimbabwe?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Do you want me to tell you about the training in Zimbabwe? I went to the commandos course and infantry course in Zimbabwe. That is the training I got. I came back in 1992. I was then involved in APLA operations.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how long have you been in Zimbabwe?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: The infantry course took six months and the commandos course took nine months.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I will move to paragraph 6: "I received instruction in respect of this operation from Comrade Thanduxolo, who was also known as Mandla." Can you tell the Committee about this Thanduxolo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Thanduxolo was my regional commander. I was receiving orders from Thanduxolo. That is what I know about him.

ADV GCABASHE: Would you know whom he reported to?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There was a chain of command. So it is obvious that there was a senior person above him but I do not know that person. I was reporting to him but I do not know who he was reporting to.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to give us full names as well as code names of Thanduxolo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I only know him as Thanduxolo. I only reciprocate that he was also referred to as Mandla and Pawa. Other comrades referred to him as Mandla and Pawa but I knew him as Thanduxolo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I proceed to paragraph 7. "The target was identified by comrade Thanduxolo. The weapons used in the operation was supplied by comrade Thanduxolo. After comrade Thanduxolo identified the target he asked me to make a reconnaissance, that is checking the days and the times it comes to Transkei to sell the milk. Comrade Thanduxolo told me that this farmer is a member of the AWB and he pretends as if he likes the african people by coming to sell milk to them, yet he wants their money. He further told me that the APLA's department of intelligence has discovered that his farm was used by AWB when it camped at Elliot the (...indistinct) of APLA."
	Can you elaborate and tell the Committee more details, your discussion regarding this target with Thanduxolo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I would like you to repeat your question please?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about this operation, about this target Thanduxolo told you about?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: As the local commander, Thanduxolo called me to brief me about the targets, the target that he identified, Mike Meyers. During those briefings Thanduxolo said that there was information that Mike Meyers was a member of the AWB and Mike Meyers accommodated white people or Boers in his farm they wanted to identify the APLA bases. So I was given orders to take him and bring him. I do not know whether it is clear.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you were given orders to take him and bring him. Does that mean you were given orders to capture him and bring him back to comrade Thanduxolo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell us what were you going to do about his truck?