Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ERNEST RAMATALA: Not necessarily to kill but to stimulate them to work - we were dealing with people who were former ANC members so sometimes as a human being I might - presume that I'm an ANC member - I might see you, maybe I say: "Comrade I don't report or I don't arrest you" but the bonuses was the way of making the person to feel like arresting anybody, that he knows exactly this one is from that side.

ADV SIGODI: Yes. Again I understand with the askaris or the people who had defected from the liberation movements, but when it comes to the police themselves, the people who had not defected, would you say that the killing, the payment of bonuses would add an extra incentive for those people to kill?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Can you repeat your question please?

ADV SIGODI: Alright, I'm referring to policemen, people who had not come from the liberation movement, would you say that this payment of bonuses.

ERNEST RAMATALA: The bonus, you mustn't take as if it was my suggestion for the bonuses but I say that it was there.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, that's why I want to find out from you because you were there at Vlakplaas, you knew ...[intervention]

ERNEST RAMATALA: But I didn't participate on killing somebody to receive the bonus of killing.

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Maybe that one I might not know.

ADV SIGODI: I understand, but I want to get the information from you, from what you know.

ERNEST RAMATALA: My information concerning the bonus, it can be limited to only firearms, arresting a person, but not for killing.

ADV SIGODI: In any event, would you say that the payment of bonuses would make people, would make it easier for people to kill?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I want to say again, I said to you the killing of a person it's not an easy thing so all of us - I had never been involved in a killing so the bonuses for getting to arrest these people, getting the firearms, to work very hard.  Maybe I can even say that now, to come to your question, maybe even those who were involved on the killing, maybe the bonus can be the way of trying to make them do that job but I say my information is very limited when coming to that one.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, I accept what you say.  If a person could be paid for a job like arresting a person and getting firearms, if you could get a bonus for that, would you agree with me that if anybody killed then definitely that person would get a bonus?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Can you repeat it slowly again so that I can understand?

ADV SIGODI: I'm saying that if a person could get a bonus for arresting a person for getting firearms doesn't it follow that a person who kills will definitely get a bonus for such an act?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well I agree with you but at Vlakplaas there are more than 400 people there, I think 300 and something they have never been involved on the killing so whether you are at Vlakplaas, but the killing of the human being, it wasn't the thing that has been discussed openly.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, just finally, I mean on that aspect, if somebody who had killed a person who had said to you that he was not paid a bonus?

ERNEST RAMATALA: You see the bonus you don't sign the S & T form so it's easy to say no I've never received and that some did receive.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, thanks.

MR MALAN: Mr Ramatala, if I understood you correctly, you refer to the bonuses initially simply to tell us that because you didn't receive a bonus you believe this was not a serious terrorist, it was small fry, not a big fish?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Not a big fish at all.

MR MALAN: That was the reason why you referred to bonuses?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Definitely.

MR MALAN: Then the second question just referring you to your statement again, on the 3rd page under paragraph 9.  It's in Afrikaans now, but you say and this is my paraphrasing in English that you met Bhila for the first time when you were taken to Lamontville with the Combi, that you and two others approached him, you pretended to be members of the UDF ...[intervention]

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR MALAN: And that he and now this is the operative part - he was under the impression, he was brought under the impression by yourselves that friends wanted to meet with them and that you would take him to the friends to talk to them?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Definitely.

MR MALAN: Is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Correct.

MR MALAN: Now am I mistaken did you not earlier give evidence that you told him that you wanted some, you wanted him to do some things for the UDF, did I misunderstand you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I didn't say that.

MR MALAN: So this is correct, you stand by what is written here?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Correct.

MR MALAN: And just to get back to that sequence, you said you met with Mhieza again, this is now after the interception when you were slapped around, you went back to C.R. Swart and about 15 minutes later Mhieza fetched the keys?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, no.

MR MALAN: Who fetched the key?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Letsatse.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry, did I say Mhieza, I mean Letsatse fetched the key?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR MALAN: The others you said you only saw late again?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR MALAN: How late was that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Round about 5, he went - a minute after the key, he took the keys and left us there.

MR MALAN: If you say the others then you mean all the other black members of the Vlakplaas group?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR MALAN: Alright and Lembedi?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I've never seen him, that was the last time.

MR MALAN: You did not see Lembedi again that night?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR MALAN: And you didn't see Letsatse leave again?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR MALAN: Did he stay at C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: He stays at C.R. Swart with us, now he came late with others now.

MR MALAN: Alright and then lastly Mhieza, did he return with the other group at 5 o'clock?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, no, no.

MR MALAN: And when did you see him again?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I think after four, five days after that.

MR MALAN: Four or five days after that.  You didn't see him again that same day?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I enquire whether Mr Ramatala can be excused, there is a flight booked for him later this afternoon?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it as in the case of others that if he is required he can be brought back here?

ADV PRIOR: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you very much.  Thank you.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is no more evidence from the Evidence Leader's side as far as the Bhila incident is concerned at this time.  May we then proceed with the other events?

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, may I just say that I wasn't going to call any of my clients as witnesses but I'm in your hands in the sense that if the Committee wants them to be here, arrangements can be made but it's entirely up to the Committee.  May I just say that they're still in Pretoria but arrangements can be made for them to be brought down.

CHAIRPERSON: Remind me again who they are?

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman they are Mr Willie Malaleka, Mr Radebe, Mr Letsatse and then there is Mr Khumalo whose name hasn't been mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think at the present stage there's any need to bring them down.  If the need arises I'm sure we can make arrangements with you.

MR HUGO: May we then be excused sir, Mr Chairman?  Thank you.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, I do apologise, just one aspect.  In the event of the Commission not calling those witnesses, I was going to ask permission to consult with Mr Hugo in this respect to perhaps get permission to consult with some of those witnesses to see whether we don't want to call them but I will clear that with him before he...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, would you like a short adjournment now?  What time do you want to leave Mr Hugo?