Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR VISSER: Would you accept that?  They had to be registered to be paid, surely?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But Gen Steyn was registered at the Headquarters but has a number for his force and maybe the number is prefixed by Natal because he's deployed in Natal.  I don't know.

MR VISSER: I don't understand the answer.  The point is this, why do you say was Lucky a security risk while he was an askari?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I am saying that the statement "nie van sekuriteits belang" is a technique that could have been used to disguise the identity of an informer.

MR VISSER: Alright, so you are now saying it could have been.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I said so throughout this morning, not now.

MR VISSER: And I want to show you, I want to put it to you that by having gone through names against the background of the summary of what PN 666 told Wasserman, Mr Maharaj, this document by no means makes it clear that the words "not of security interest" shows that that person might have been an informer.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: If I am to accept that, Chairperson, then I would have to accept on counsels questions and the paragraphs that he has made, that PN as a code number, also was not of significance to protect a person, because 664 is identified in this report by Capt Botha as MK Lucky, also known as Bongani, as an askari.

MR VISSER: No, 664 was.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, 664.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Is given as Lucky.  So the PN drops, he's identified the man, he then says it is Bongani and he says it's 664 and he then says it's an Askari.  So PN is destroyed as a mechanism of hiding the identity of an informer.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Maharaj that's where you're wrong.  Where in this document is the true identity of Lucky given?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Ah, now we've come to another problem now.  We've come to the next problem and let me take counsel through that one as he's taken me, with your permission Sir.  It says there, paragraph 2.1., MK Lucky sent agent PN 664 to Swaziland with regards to activities in the Msinga region, activities of MK in order that the person convey a report and bring back instructions from the ANC Natal Machinery.  That is saying, is virtually in command of Msinga region within the country.  Then it goes on to say what discussions took place in Swaziland on the instructions of MK Lucky and then the reporter's report in paragraph 3 deals with all those discussions and instructions including a sketch of a DLB of weapons.  Having gone through that part of Lucky, in the substance of the report, Cap Botha in processing it and commenting on it, then identifies Lucky as an agent of the South African Security Police as PN664 reporting and falling and says he's a rehabilitated terrorist.  That tells you he's working for the South African regime.  Then he goes on and says in paragraph 38.7 that he also has an MK name as Bongani.  Now what have you told your entire division including your policeman in Msinga area?  What have you told them?  You've told them that this man must pass through any road block, don't worry but let him go through because he's our man, let weapons come through, he's our man and we have got two people, Lucky plus his courier, are both our agents.  Now what are you doing?  Violence erupts in Msinga area and who's doing the violence?  Is it ANC or is it the Security Branch?

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, where you read all of that in Exhibit J1 I don't know.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I could take you through more ...(intervention)

MR LAX: We're missing a page.  It's just struck me, the numbering - we're missing page 10 basically of that report because the numbering goes from 37.8 to 39.9.  If you look at page 10 and page 11, there's an intervening page missing in the whole document.  It just struck me now.

MR VISSER: Ours is complete, Mr Chairman.  Oh, I see what you're referring.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: There's no page 8.

MR VISSER: Just allow me, Mr Maharaj.  Allow me to point out which seems to be the obvious, Mr Chairman and that is that the paragraph numbering at page 11 became out of sync.  It follows the (8) with a (9) but it seems to go from 37 to 39, but you see the bottom, at the foot of the page it refers to page 11 following and it is indeed page 11 following, so it would seem that perhaps following my own example in my papers, the paragraph numbers went out of sync.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, it looks like Vula sources were not doing there work properly in photocopying.

MR LAX: Sorry, I was just looking for the paragraph numbered 38 which reference was made to and I couldn't see one, it went from 37 to 39.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, you seem to have some difficulty still.  We're referring to page 10, paragraph 37(8) goes over the page to the next page and then it goes on with 39 not 37.9.

CHAIRPERSON: All the other paragraphs, paragraph 37, if you look, 37(1), X(1), 37(2), S(2, X(4), X(5), X(7), X(8), 10, 11, suddenly you turn over and the Xs have gone.

MR VISSER: But you see Mr Chairman, the way we read the document, it only goes to X(11) and no further than that because if you look at the next page you'll find another reference to X11 Mr Chairman.  It seems that that was the ultimate number that was reached and that is in paragraph 32.3 at page 9.  You'll see that it only goes up to X11, or so it would seem, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: What is the relevance of the X if you, did you find that out at all?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I can't tell you but I can attempt to find that out.  I was under the impression that it referred to commentary, Mr Chairman, commentary on whatever, but I may be wrong, I'll find out what that stands for.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I would suggest the possibility that the X was a prefix  attached to a document.

MR VISSER: Could be, could be, Mr Chairman, that is quite possible.  I will try to find out, discover what precisely.  Now you see, just to tie up this point, Mr Maharaj your point in your evidence was, with reference to page 11 of Exhibit J 1, that the fact that Mr Ndaba was mentioned there made him a target for elimination, possible elimination by members of the Security Forces and if he hadn't been, if he had been an informer, Botha would have seen to it that next to his name would have stood the words, "nie van veiligheids belang", that's basically your point.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, you have not heard me clearly.

MR VISSER: Please take me through that again.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I said yesterday that emerging from this document are two techniques amongst many that he could have used.  The one was to say "nie van veiligheids belang nie" or the second was to begin to attach a code number.  A code number would disguise the identity of the person because that would be an informer and the reason why informers had numbers PN 665 whatever, was in order to disguise their identity when you distribute it because the issue that I'm dealing with is the assertion that the moment Charles Ndaba was promoted to Commander of the Natal Machinery, his handler instructed him to leave Swaziland because his life was now in danger at the hands of other Security Branch men  and I say, you don't get an informer, suppose you made me into and informer as a Commander of Operation Vula, would you have said to me, leave the country?  You'd have said, stay on.