Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, can you in any way explain and maybe I should use my arms to indicate to you because it does not seem to me you understand the ninety degrees.  Can you in any way explain that if I point the way, the direction my right hand is pointing now, in your direction and you see it and you see that I fired a firearm, an AK47 in that direction, how I can hit the parapet of a building which is five metres high and directly towards - would my left arm where I am pointing now - that is in ninety degrees towards the left, approximately five metres in the air.  Can you explain that to the Chairman?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I can easily do that if I'm doing a Zulu dance, if I'm dancing I can easily do that, I can demonstrate it to you.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, the mere fact that you are trying to explain that in a way you are doing it now, I put it to you it's only indicative of one thing - and that is that you persisting with a lie.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I am sorry to say that you are not correct and you must also understand that I have conceded the fact that he might have not shot in our direction and secondly, you can't say it's a lie because I'm explaining to you the situation that a person can do that.  So you can't just be conclusive and say a person cannot do that because people are different and you don't know what kind of person was that guy.  So I disagree with you when you say I'm persisting with a lie.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, I don't want to carry on too long.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should move on to some other aspect of the matter because I don't think we'll make much headway -you've had two views, you've put forward your view, you have a denial, I don't think you can take it very much further.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I just wanted to conclude by stating to this witness - I'm not going to read it out - that on various occasions during the previous evidence he gave replies to the effect that he physically saw this person shooting at them and that these shots struck the balcony or the parapet in the vicinity where they were and that was impossible which concedes now but yet he wants to explain a way, it in another way which is totally unacceptable or cannot happen, it's physically impossible to happen.  That's all I want to put to the witness.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Let me put to you also that if you have the ballistics, you must appreciate that there were AK47 shots just above me so that might have been the shots that I heard, that I thought had came from that man.  That might have been the shots that made the dust to come down and you must also remember that when I was answering questions in the inquest there I was trying my utmost best to assist the Judge, not that you understand the situation, but before I answer the question, I did explain to the Judge that this thing happened in ten seconds, less than ten seconds and now to go into nitty gritty of ten seconds it's very impossible for many people, it's really impossible for many people - it will take only a few genius to do that to go into nitty grittys of something that happened in seconds.  If we were to explain what happened in seconds and you want to take things out of context and look at these things as individuals as if they're happening in an hour or so.  So we're trying our utmost best, I think you must appreciate that, that we try to answer the questions even though they're confined into those seconds.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, move on.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, just in so far as your reply is concerned, during you evidence now you also stated that the shots with the AK47 fired by the marchers were shot before any of the guards on the corner shot at the crowd, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: And that immediately even so far as you're concerned not even taking into regard Mr Kruser's order, that the only warning shots that were fired, was fired with your pistol and that of Mr V.J. Rama, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well I didn't get the whole question clearly, if you can repeat please.

MR PRETORIUS: The only warning shots before you started firing at the crowd was fired with two pistols and that is now yours and that of Mr V.J. Rama, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.  But the fact that Gary Kruser might put it otherwise does not change my view of the recollection of the events of that day.

MR PRETORIUS: Besides the shots that were fired by the crowd what else persuaded you that they were in the process of attacking you?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: They were charging, they were moving forward very fast and they had no police escort and the songs that they were singing and the fact that they fired to my knowledge was the best - was the decisive thing.

MR PRETORIUS: They were singing traditional songs according to your evidence in chief, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes traditional war songs.

MR PRETORIUS: Didn't the other crowds also sing?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: They might have, but the other crowds didn't shoot at us.

MR PRETORIUS: So do I understand you correctly, the other marchers you concede they also sang the same type of songs?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Not exactly the same but they were singing songs, various songs but the decisive thing was the shooting at us.

MR PRETORIUS: You see that is exactly the point Mr Zuma, that what your evidence was and what the other guards evidence was during the inquest in front of Judge Nugent was exactly that, that what convinced you that here was an attack was the fact that someone fired shots at you as the guards, do you agree with that?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes that was the decisive action.

MR PRETORIUS: Now that is exactly the fact that was proved by the ballistics to be not the truth.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, we must object to that formulation, the ballistics does not establish the sequence.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you formulate it more correctly perhaps?  No doubt that there were these war songs that were being chanted and people moving and so on, there's no dispute about that as I understand your cross-examination.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, we do not refer to it as war songs, we refer to it as traditional songs and chanting which was the usual way and toy-toying which was the usual way when people marched during not only that day but on numerous previous occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] particular occasion, yes ....[intervention]
	Will you please allow these proceedings to carry on otherwise I'm going to prevent you from being here.  There are lawyers representing people who have been effected and they will talk on behalf of people who have been effected.  Please.
	Do carry on.

MR PRETORIUS: In brief what we are saying Mr Chairman is that there was nothing that this group of marchers did which could be regarded as an attack or could be taken as an attack on anybody or any place such as Shell House.
	Now to reformulate the question, the ballistics confirmed that there was no bullet that struck any object whatsoever in the vicinity where the guards were - point 1 - do you understand that Mr Zuma?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is wrong - if you check your ballistics there are bullet marks there in the parapet where the guards were on top there in the parapet, if you have ...[intervention]

MR PRETORIUS: Those marks that you refer to were marks caused by shots fired by the guards themselves, that is, I'm specifically referring to the guards on the corner of Plein and King George Street.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I'm talking about the corner of King George and De Villiers.  That is Shell House this - Shell House is not the corner of King George and Plein, Shell House goes right round, it's one building.

MR PRETORIUS: Now I'm referring specifically to the corner of King George and Plein Street where you were positioned.  There were no marks caused by fire from the marchers anywhere in that position, do you agree?