Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-31

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: I must say we were commanded to come out one by one until Dumisani came too and then Mr Botha grabbed him and then three of them, three of those policemen went inside with Dumisani and just a couple of minutes, it wasn't even two minutes, whilst we were outside lying on the floor they went inside with him and all of a sudden we heard Dumisani screaming, saying ... Xhosa, don't shoot at me.
	And then we heard a gunshot, it was all over from there.  It just became quiet and of course although I was not allowed to move and peep around but fortunate enough my head was lying using this ear so I could properly see Dumisani coming up, coming back with them whilst they were grabbing him just here - like this.  They took him back to their vehicle.  That was the only time that he was transported to the hospital so to say after having been shot inside the house.

MR WILLS: Now are you able to say whether or not you saw if the police, persons who took him inside the house were armed.

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes, I saw clearly three men fully armed, each one for instance Mr Botha, the man who was on the forefront was carrying a pistol, a 9mm and an R5 that was there.

MR WILLS: Were any of these arms pointed at Mr Mthembu's direction?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes, they were being pointed right straight into his face whilst others were looking after us at gun point - not far away, very close.

MR WILLS: You were eventually taken and detained, not so?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes indeed, from that incident I was taken to Ishowe prison for what I could term as a traumatic torture, not just interrogation.

MR WILLS: Do you have anything further that you wish to add?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes indeed, I must say that during the course of interrogation the police treated me brutally, it was very inhuman and unkind in such a way that interrogation went through for almost eleven hours on that night and my lawyer too John Wills was denied the right to see me and during the course of interrogation they used to beat me, they used to make sort of unacceptable remarks about being Black.  They said - "ek glo nie die Kaffir se idiologie, jou hare is kort" (I don't believe in the Kaffir's ideology, your hair is short)  in most of the things that he used to say to me. 	When they went to the house they knew there were terrorists there, I must agree that I'm a terrorist and at the end of the day he had to make a statement and he forced me to sign it.  He said if you don't sign the statement - jy sal ...(inaudible) netnou (you will ...(inaudible) just now).

MR WILLS: Now I noticed that your statement, it appears sorry, Committee members.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes.  The statement that you made or that you were forced to sign should I say appears at pages 43 on our bundle.  I see that the person who commissioned this statement is a person by the name of E J Louw and from the other evidence that is available to us in this bundle, it appears that this same Mr Louw was involved in the raid, is that correct?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes indeed, he was a tiger in that jungle that Mr Louw.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I do not have questions thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mtule, do you know how long Mr Mthembu was the bodyguard of Mr Shandu?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes, it's almost nine months down the line.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now in your evidence you stated that you were expecting an attack or that Mr Shandu was at the brink of being attacked.

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes indeed, we were expecting attacks.

SISI KHAMPEPE: From whom were you expecting an attack?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Attack could come from all angles where enemies are.  Those political parties that were anti-liberation movements, like the ANC i.e. we have heard incidents where the IFP so to say, was attacking the ANC activists, members, whoever and also on the other hand, of course it goes without saying we were expecting attacks from the security forces themselves who also did testify to me that when they came by the house they knew that there were terrorists but we were not aware of the security forces to come into the house, we were just expecting attacks from whoever.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR WILLS: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: That is the case for the Applicant Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) were you aware of the fact that the Applicant was firing shots from inside the house?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes, I became aware.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson but I was distracted at the time of your question and I omitted to get the question and the answer.  I wonder if I couldn't ask the interpreter just to let me know what it was, or yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked him if he was aware of the fact that the Applicant was firing from within the house and he said he was, he became aware of it.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  That is the Applicant's case, thank you Mr Chairperson.
APPLICANT'S CASE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I have no evidence to lead safe to state that only one notified victim is here present today, Mr W J van Schalkwyk as per the sheet.  I've spoken to him during the lunch break pertaining to legal representation and he said he was not aware thereof but he has been served with all the necessary documents and the document informing him of the availability of legal representation.  He indicated to me that he did not understand that document and that is why he did nothing about the issue of a lawyer.  He indicated further to me that he did not necessary to testify but if the Committee would permit it, he would appreciate it if he be given an opportunity to secure a legal representative.  He is here in present to confirm if the Committee so wishes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a copy of the document served on him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't have ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Not necessarily of the same one but the ...(inaudible) document.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He has here the ones whom I can request that he gives them to us Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  No sound.   Can you hear me?  How did you know you had to be here today?

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you come up here somewhere so we don't have to shout.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Or if you sit there you can talk into that microphone.

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: I was called, informed by telephone, it was by a lady if I'm not mistaken with the surname of Msomi.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked you that because I see the notice that you were given says that the application for hearing will be held at the TRC office in
Smith Street on the 5th of August.

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes that's right Mr Chairperson, I've got another note here which I received afterwards to notify ...(inaudible) that I have to be here today.

CHAIRPERSON: That was a week later, on July the 15th you were told.  And I understand from Mr Mpshe that you haven't engaged any legal - applied for legal assistance despite the fact the original notice said that if you were financially unable you could apply to the Legal Aid Board.

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: I understand that section Mr Chairperson but as it's been requested through him, I would like to make use of a legal representative please.

CHAIRPERSON: What have you got to say gentlemen?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson I can't object, I'm committed to the full disclosure of the process and as a result whilst it may be inconvenient I would not oppose an opportunity given by Mr van Schalkwyk to obtain legal representation.