Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-09

MR MADASA: And he had an opportunity to shoot you there if he wanted to, is that not so?  If he wanted to shoot you he would have shot at you when he apprehended you?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: When they came as a group, I've already explained, Oscar himself, we did have a discussion both of us because people who were with him were not able to see me.  He's the one who called me.

MR MADASA: Did you say that yourself and Oscar had a discussion?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes Chairperson.

MR MADASA: What did you talk about?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is the time when he asked me why did we say he's the one who has killed Bulelwa.

MR MADASA: Yes?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Then they went with me and then we were going along the township trying to take other members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he referring to the conversation with Oscar?  Did he ask you why you were alleging that he had killed Bulelwa, is that right?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I don't know Chairperson why did he say we alleged that he has killed Bulelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: But did he say that?  Did he say that you guys were saying that he's the one who killed Bulelwa?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: When they apprehended me, as I've already explained, that he called me - then he said why did we allege that he has killed Bulelwa.  Because I was scared I told him who said he [inaudible] Bulelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked him who had made that allegation?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes I did.  He replied that there are people who have been apprehended then they say I am myself, myself I'm responsible for that allegation.

MR MADASA: Now you said you escaped by pretending as if you were going to call for help, did you say that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: The applicants say they brought you to the community in order to account about Blanko's death?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not remember the reason for them to take me to the community.  What I remember is that they told me that I was supposed to appear before the community to be responsible for everything that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I suppose that what is being put to you is that the applicant's say that you were supposed to appear before the community which had gathered there and to account for the deeds of the Youth League.  Is that what you're putting to him?

MR MADASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I don't quite understand.  Why does he say the Youth League activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Well possibly because the Youth League had killed Blanko amongst other things, that they were alleged to have done then.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I was taken before the community to account but that was not the case.  I was first taken to the shack to speak to those who had kept shack and I could not even speak to the community at the end.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you supposed to say to those who were the shack?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I was enquiring about the allegations that I mentioned that Oscar killed Bulelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you say you were never taken into the community?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I did not account before the community because at that time I was among the members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: But what is being put to you is not that you accounted before the community, what is being put to you is that you were required to appear before the community and to account before the community and presumably for the activities of the Youth League including the death of Blanko.  We all know that you didn't do that because you went away but the applicants say that was their purpose.  It was to bring you to the community and get you to account before the community.  Do you understand the question?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you listen carefully, you'll understand the question.  What is being put to you is that the applicants say that what they had in mind with you was that you will appear before the community which had gathered there and then account for the conduct, or the activities if you will, of the Youth League members which of course included the killing of Blanko.  Do you understand that?  That's what they wanted to do with you.  What do you say to that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is not correct.

MR MADASA: Is it correct that at that time amongst the organisations there was an understanding that if a leader of an organisation was involved in some acts like acts of killing, the leader would not be killed but would be brought before the community to account?

CHAIRPERSON: It's the leader or if the members of the organisation?

MR MADASA: If a leader of an organisation, Mr Chair, was involved in killing for example, the understanding at the time was that such person would be brought before the community before any action is taken against him.  Is that not so?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: But you did not do so with Blanko because he resisted, is that so?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct, I have explained already that they were armed themselves.  Now we wanted those who were armed first, we wanted Blanko to tell us who were those among them where I am sure that we can first get hold of the arms.

MR MADASA: Is it correct that at the scene where the community had gathered you were free to move around, you were not tied for example, is that correct?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Then I'm putting to you that you escaped from that scene because you were running away to account to the community about Blanko's death and other activities?

CHAIRPERSON: He was running away to account or was he running away in order to avoid accounting to the community?

MR MADASA: I should say to avoid, Mr Chairman.   You ran away to avoid to account to the community?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is not correct.

MR MADASA: Why did you run away?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I explained already that they tried at the time they were rounding us up, they were armed and they were very angry so their anger went a little bit down because at that time I did not run away.

MR MADASA: When you went to Blanko to attack him were you not armed?   Were you not armed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: We were armed but members of the community were armed, among members of the Youth League were not armed.

MR MADASA: Were you?  I'm referring to you now, were you not armed.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I was not armed Chairperson.

MR MADASA: And when you went to Blanko you believed, at that time, you believed that Blanko and his colleagues had killed Bulelwa and were armed?  Is that not so?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Why were you not armed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I was the leader, I was not supposed to carry any weapon.

MR MADASA: Did you not anticipate an attack from Blanko's place?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: We did not anticipate an attack, I already explained that some members of the community clearly indicated that they were tired.  They said they were arming because those guys might be also in a spirit of war.

MR MADASA: You deny that the ANC Youth League members were involved in criminal activities?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I dispute that.