Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We discussed this in detail when we left Mtubatuba with M.Z. Khumalo.  I asked if these Boers know everything that the IFP is involved in, whereas the IFP doesn't know what they do on their own.
	Don't you think this will ... (tape ends) ... let's work with them because they help us financially and it is also difficult to run away from them because we had already discussed this matter previously.
	Because we had asked them to train the trainees in Israel, but the Boers on hearing this, informed us that they knew and they told us that they could help us with the training, so he said to me that we should work with them for the time being because there was no other way.

MR STUART: How did you feel about that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wasn't happy about it, and I expressed this unhappiness by not going to other meetings, subsequent meetings.  M.Z. will then attend and report to me, but I did not physically go to subsequent meetings of this nature.
	At 121 I was asked or requested to become the Political Commissar, a person who would be responsible for the political side and I would be working with the contra-mobilisation, but at the meeting, it was discovered that because the Commander of the Caprivi trainees was not physically well, and he was not respected by the Caprivi trainees, I was then asked to take on both positions, Commander and Political Commissar.
	I then started to be Commander of the Caprivi trainees.

MR STUART: Who did you report to as Commander and Political Commissar?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The closest person to me was M.Z. Khumalo.

MR STUART: How regularly did you have contact with him after that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We were usually together.  We didn't spend a lot of time apart.

MR STUART: Did the Planning Committee, to your knowledge, meet or continue to meet after that first meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.  They did meet.

MR STUART: You were not part of it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR STUART: Is it right that the trainees were then brought back together again for a welcoming home or welcoming back ceremony?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR STUART: Where was that ceremony?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was at Hlongwane.

MR STUART: Who attended that ceremony?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We went there to be welcomed by the President of the IFP, Dr M.G. Buthelezi.

MR STUART: So did he attend?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR STUART: Did he speak to everyone?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He addressed everyone.

MR STUART: What did he say?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: When we arrived, it was shortly after the arrest of some MK members who were laying ambush for him between Nongoma and Mahlabatini.  He talked about that incident, telling everyone that the ANC was after him, after him, that they wanted to kill him.
	He said that he was hopeful that after our return, he would be protected.  Those were his words.  He said a lot of things, but he said that he was happy that we had returned and that we were there to protect him.

MR STUART: Did he say anything in addition about the role of the trainees on their return?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, he didn't explain.

MR STUART: Did you speak to him personally?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, for several times.

MR STUART: What did he say to you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We did not discuss the training or he didn't talk about training.

MR STUART: What did he talk to you about?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was the matter of the ANC plotting to kill him and how the ANC and the IFP were at each other, the enmity between them, and the reason for the IFP for not working with the ANC because the ANC wanted to use the IFP as its internal wing, whilst he wanted to use Inkatha as an organisation that would use peaceful means of resistance - the ones that were used by the old ANC.

MR STUART: You have said that you were initially deployed in Mpumalanga, this is the period 1986, 1987.  What was the condition in Mpumalanga at that time of the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: When we returned from Caprivi, there was an unpleasant situation in Mpumalanga.  The situation dealt mainly with contradicting policy, the one of violence and peaceful resistance.

UNKNOWN: Sorry Mr Dalaqolo, whose policies are you referring to here?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I am referring to the policies of the IFP that were contradictory because they would talk about peace, but covertly they would be speaking about violence.
	So there was that contradiction between the members of the IFP.   There was already violence in Mpumalanga but the person responsible for that was Zakhile Mkehle, an IFP member.  He was also a member of the Central Committee of the IFP and Chairman of the IFP, Mpumalanga branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Luthuli, could you just repeat his name please?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Zakhile Mkehle.  This contradiction was an internal struggle of the IFP.  There were members who were not in favour but Zakhile Mkehle would say that it should be done.
	At that time the IFP used to attack UDF members, so there was also this struggle within the IFP from members who were not in favour of killing UDF members.

MR STUART: On finding that situation in the IFP in Mpumalanga, what was your role?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: When I arrived, I tried to reconcile this two groups.  The one supporting Zakhile Mkehle and the one supporting Mrs Qolo.
	Unfortunately I stayed in Mrs Qolo's side.  This side had more members and those people who used to run away from violence stricken areas, would come to  this side.
	When I tried to reconcile this two sides, I got a message that I was required at Ulundi, together with Mrs Qolo.  We then went to Ulundi, we found Zakhile Mkehle already there.
	The President of the IFP asked me the question is it true that you let my people be killed by the UDF, you are telling them not to defend themselves, because Zakhile has said that you have brought this to Hammersdale, that people shouldn't defend themselves.
	I then explained that I am trying to build up the IFP in Mpumalanga because its image was not good, it was really bad.  They were involved in very bad activities, and I mentioned those.
	He then asked if it is true and Mr Mkehle admitted that some of the members did do this or were undisciplined.  So the President said I was right, and instructed us to go back and fix things.  We then came back in order to fix matters.
	I then organised meetings, ward by ward, trying to install a sense of discipline in the IFP, that if they did corrupt activities, they wouldn't really be able to convince people to join them.
	If they were involved in corruption, people wouldn't be able to join them.

MR STUART: What activities did you regard as legitimate activities for defending the IFP in that area?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Can you please repeat the question.

MR STUART: You have said that you had to dissuade people from corrupt activities, I am asking you what activities were legitimate or proper activities to defend the IFP in that area?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that if maybe there is a boy in one house, who is a member of the UDF, then people thought that they should go and destroy the entire house.
	In the evenings people would be forced to go to camps, going to places going to Ngoze, if the elders of that house refused to let their children go out at night, that house would have to be attacked or if maybe that house is suspected that maybe the members are likely to be UDF members, then they would be attacked.
	Sometimes they would be attacked because they are economically well off, maybe people just want to steal from the house.  I was just trying to fix such things.