Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this?

ADV PRIOR: I'm referring to the paginated bundle, 14(h) and 14(i) Mr Chairman.
	It commences at the bottom of 14(h) and leads on with - I may have phrased the question originally more stronger than it was set here but it certainly seems that Jimmy Jones was to some extent alarmed at the fact that Mbambo had been taken along on a mission, obviously without his knowledge and he said any weaponry that Mbambo had must be handed over immediately, the smoke grenade for example.  Do you agree with that, that that happened?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not know such a thing.

ADV PRIOR: Well, did he have a smoke grenade when he went to Bahai or when he came back from Bahai?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not remember.

ADV PRIOR: Well, are you saying that he was a member of APLA at that stage, when you went out on that mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I said, I did not have any proof to that effect, he's the person that can answer that question properly.

ADV PRIOR: Well you stayed at his house at some stage before Bahai didn't you?  Before the Bahai attack, didn't you stay at his home?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We stayed in his house.

ADV PRIOR: Yes.  And who did you stay with?  Who was with you or was it just yourself?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was me, the late TNT, the late Kit, Tona, we were sleeping in a separate room and he in another.

ADV PRIOR: That was virtually your whole unit under the command of Jimmy Jones was there, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that was four.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  And was there no discussion of how he became involved or did you not ask him whether he was an APLA cadre, whether he had gone for training like you had?  Did you not speak to him in those sort of general terms?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, we did not.

ADV PRIOR: His father was a policeman, is that not correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And his mother was a nursing sister, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And she worked at the Cecilia Makawane Hospital at Mdantsane, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And in fact she worked with Doctor Buck Shandeki, one of the deceased in the Bahai matter, he was a doctor at that hospital.  Did you know Doctor Buck Shandeki?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not know him.

ADV PRIOR: Well, did you know that Mbambo's mother worked with a doctor who had come from Iran, from the Middle East, who was working at that hospital and who was also connected with the Bahai Church at Mdantsane, did you know that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not know that.

ADV PRIOR: You did not know that at that time during March ...[end of tape]
	...[inaudible] stop that.   When you - sorry, you were in Mdantsane at the time just before the Bahai attack, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Where had you come from?  In other words, where was your last place where you had stayed, was it Butterworth?  Did you come from Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was coming from Butterworth.

ADV PRIOR: And had Jimmy Jones told you to go and attack the Bahai Church at Mdantsane?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: That was a church that was working with the black community there, the community of Mdantsane, assisting them and uplifting their lives, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know that.

ADV PRIOR: Well, did you not reconnoitre the target first?  Did you not go and keep observation?  Did you not make enquiries from the local population regarding the activities of Bahai Church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not a reason for us to first, to reconnaissance because the late TNT and Kid knew that place.  They were the people who knew that place, that's why we didn't see any reason to again go and reconnoitre them.

ADV PRIOR: How did you travel from Butterworth, from Jimmy Jones' camp, if I may refer to it or base, to Bahai Church?  Did you go by motor vehicle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When we moved from Butterworth to Mdantsane we came by taxi.

ADV PRIOR: Did you arrive in Mdantsane directly from Butterworth or did you come through East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because we were using from Butterworth, it started at East London, dropping some people there and then went with us with other people to Mdantsane.

ADV PRIOR: Would I be correct in assuming that along the way you met up with or came across several white people either driving in vehicles or walking along the street?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Which road, when?

ADV PRIOR: I don't know.  I'm assuming that is you came into East London from Butterworth and if the taxi stopped in East London and then proceeded onwards to Mdantsane, that you may have seen white people driving in motor vehicles alongside the taxi or walking in the streets or did that not happen?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It may be that it happened, maybe I did not take notice.

ADV PRIOR: You see you never attacked any white people on route from Butterworth to Mdantsane, is that correct. even though there may have been several such persons along the route?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: Now, you say Kid and TNT knew where the mission was or where the target was, if I can use that expression?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And you got there by foot or got there on foot, and what time of the day did you arrive there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We moved from Butterworth, I cannot remember the time.

ADV PRIOR: Well, did you get there in the day or the night?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We got there by about sunset.

ADV PRIOR: Was the reason to take Palapala along, was it because he could drive a motor vehicle and the others couldn't?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: Was he told that the object of the mission was simply to steal or to repossess to commandeer a vehicle in order to get back to the Transkei?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What he came for was to drive for us so that what we had to do we would not have any disturbances and quickly rush back to Transkei on time as we had been told that we must quickly rush back to Transkei.

ADV PRIOR: And I need to ask you this or put to you that, would you agree that there were many other targets in the East London area which would have suited your goals, in other words you could have got rid of a lot more white people in bars and pubs, in offices, in hospitals or wherever it was in East London rather than going all the way to Mdantsane to the Bahai Church where eventually you say you found three white people who you then killed?  Would you agree with that proposition?  There were many more white people elsewhere that would have suited your purposes?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Whatever the number, I could not do what I was not instructed, I simply followed instructions.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, if I can interrupt you for a second?  They may have had a particular reason for attacking those people at that particular place.  Maybe we need to find out from him what reason they had for attacking those people at that particular place.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I'm simply laying a foundation.
	Can you tell us what the reason was to go to Bahai and kill the people that were in fact killed, the three gentlemen that you found there, the male persons that you found there?  What was the reason for that?  And by reason I mean, what political benefit did you achieve from that or was achieved from that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Mine was to follow and accept orders  As to what the political benefit was to be I cannot lie to you.

MS GCABASHE: But Mr Ncamazana, on page 53 of the bundle there is your affidavit.  You say in paragraph 8.2
"We were briefed about a raid that we were to undertake at the Bahai Faith Mission at NU2"
That's paragraph 8.  Now:
"We were briefed"
explain that to us because you were there at the briefing.  What was said, what was the discussion?