Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I am calling Mr Faan Venter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Wouldn't it be convenient for him to sit here please.  Mr Venter are you prepared to take the oath - in other words you are prepared to affirm rather than take the oath.

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

FAAN VENTER: (affirms)

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter you are entitled to speak Afrikaans.

FAAN VENTER: I would prefer to testify in Afrikaans.

MR PRINSLOO: If you can't hear properly you can make use of the headphones and there is also an interpreting service available.

FAAN VENTER: I would prefer to testify without using these headphones.

MR PRINSLOO: If questions are put to you in English and you want to hear the Afrikaans version you can then listen to the interpreting on the headphones.
	Mr Venter do you know Mr Derby-Lewis, the applicant in this matter?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Since when have you known him?

FAAN VENTER: Since the early eighties, I think from 1984, I was at his wedding.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know his wife, Mrs Derby-Lewis?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you know Mr Derby-Lewis well?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter when did you move to Krugersdorp in 1993?

FAAN VENTER: It was the 1st of March 1993, we moved into a new house.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you sometime during 1993 see Mr Derby-Lewis, after you moved in there?

FAAN VENTER: Yes, I saw him just after I moved in.  I went to see him.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you tell the Honourable Committee what the date was when you saw him, can you remember?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I made an appointment for the 10th of March, when I went to see him.

MR PRINSLOO: On that day when you saw Mr Derby-Lewis did he ask you for anything or not?

FAAN VENTER: He asked me whether I knew where weapons were obtainable, preferably an unlicensed firearm.

MR PRINSLOO: Preferably unlicensed?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Did he tell you for what purpose he needed this weapon or weapons?

FAAN VENTER: Yes his words were more-or-less to the effect that -  "we are needing it for the battle that lies ahead, we are stocking up".

MR PRINSLOO: "Stocking up".  What did you understand by the statement "stocking up"?

FAAN VENTER: I suspected that they were stocking up on weapons so that when the time arrived they could hand it out to people to take part in the struggle.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you a member or sympathiser or supporter of the Conservative Party or not?

FAAN VENTER: I was a paid-up member, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you then obtain a weapon, could you obtain a weapon?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I had a 9mm pistol which had been given to me.  It was an unlicensed firearm and I gave that to Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR PRINSLOO: Where did you get that weapon from, from whom?

FAAN VENTER: From Jean Taylor in 1990 more-or-less.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did you then do with the weapon after Mr Derby-Lewis asked you for a firearm?

FAAN VENTER: I delivered where he asked me to go and deliver it.  It was at Mr du Randt's house.  I gave it to Mrs du Randt.

MR PRINSLOO: Now when was this, what day?

FAAN VENTER: It was the same day.

MR PRINSLOO: On the 10th of March?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Who did you give the firearm to?

FAAN VENTER: Mrs du Randt.

MR PRINSLOO: Was Mr du Randt at home?

FAAN VENTER: No, I understood that he wasn't at home.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter during the trial you also testified for the State, that was the trial where Mrs Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus were being prosecuted?

FAAN VENTER: Correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chair the evidence appears in Volume 5 on page 405(2.6.5), that is where the evidence appears.
	Mr Venter were you aware of the fact that at that stage Mr Derby-Lewis was attached to the President's Council?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I was.

MR PRINSLOO: At this stage Chairperson I would like to refer to certain documents which I propose handing in to the Committee.  I have given you the original copy, the copy of the minutes of the President Council's sessions or a schedule of their sessions, but I would like to also give to you now the claim which Mr Derby-Lewis handed in which relates to his journey to Cape Town and back and also his claim form which relates to those events.  This document was Exhibit AF.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that evidence the kind of thing that is going to be contested, claim forms by Mr Derby-Lewis?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman we take up the attitude that the roster of the President's Council is not evidence of the presence of Mr Derby-Lewis in Cape Town on those dates.  We do not admit it.  I don't know about the claim form, but I don't know whether this has anything to do with this witness Mr Chairman.  Certainly this witness can't testify.  Can we deal with the evidence of this witness and then we can deal with other matters by persons who may have knowledge about that.  They can't be put in through this witness Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I agree with that.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, with respect, the reason why I want to make available this document to the Committee is due to the fact that there has been evidence during the trial that this handing-over of the weapon by Mrs du Randt, or to Mrs du Randt took place in February, whilst this witness said that it took place in March.  And the roster, as indicated by Mr Bizos shows certain evidence and for that reason I obtained this information from the President's Council which indicates payments made to Mr Derby-Lewis, so it's actually in an effort to save time, because it proves that Mr Derby-Lewis was in Cape Town at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  Maybe if Mr Bizos has a chance of looking at that document we might sort this out.  But for the time being let's just proceed with this witness' evidence.

MR PRINSLOO: As the Committee pleases.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you checked in addition on the  attendance register of the City Council, City Council that he was alleged to have been at on the day that Mrs du Randt got the weapon?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman I intend calling Mr du Randt to substantiate that and handing in the City Council's roster for that particular purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR PRINSLOO: The 10th of March.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's carry on with this witness.

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, could you tell the Committee, at that stage when you talked to Mr Derby-Lewis what exactly was the political climate as you saw it?

FAAN VENTER: Well it was a very turbulent time.  We heard about defence and "kill a farmer, kill a boer" - "one settler, one bullet", and it wasn't anything new, it was more-or-less in line with what was happening at the time.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Venter, the evidence before the Committee is that this gun was handed to Mrs du Randt before the 29th of February which was her daughter's birthday.

FAAN VENTER: No that is not correct at all.  I only moved to my house in Krugersdorp on the 1st of March so it's impossible that it could have happened that way.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you living before?

FAAN VENTER: In Delareyville.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you visit Krugersdorp during February either for business purposes or visits or possibly in furtherance of your - any political activity that you may have been involved in?

FAAN VENTER: I did visit Krugersdorp but it was for purely business reasons, dealing with the purchase of the residence and my visits were in no way politically related.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  So on how many occasions did you visit Krugersdorp for the purposes of transfer of the property into your name or delivery of your furniture before you moved in on the 1st of March or for the purposes of speaking to the seller or making other arrangements, how many times did you visit Krugersdorp in February?