Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-06

MR LYSTER: Thank you.  As with the other witnesses, counsel will be given an opportunity at a later stage to conduct cross-examination and Mr Dlamini will be recalled later to testify with regard to his activities in Esikhaweni Township.  Thank you.

MR MACADAM: (?)   Mr Chairperson, Mr Dlamini has remember the name that he had forgotten previously about the person that he stayed with.

WITNESS:   It was Mr Mncwabe(?).

MR MACADAM: Sorry, which Mncwabe?  Do you remember his first name, because there are a whole lot of Mncwabes in the Pietermaritzburg area who were involved.

WITNESS:   I just knew him as Mr Mncwabe who worked at the Legislature

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairperson, I'd like at this stage to call Dr Rocklyn Mark Williams.  Unlike the other witnesses who have testified, Dr Williams will not be recalled at a later stage to give any evidence to Esikhaweni.  His evidence will be led in its entirety at this stage.  I have, prior to the commencement of proceedings, been approached by various counsel who indicated that they had a difficulty in that Dr Williams - that they wished to consult with other experts before they would be in a position to cross-examine Dr Williams and I indicated to them that I did not foresee any difficulty in allowing Dr Williams' cross-examination to stand over until a
 /convenient
2A convenient stage next week where that cross-examination can take place, if necessary.

ROCKLYN MARK WILLIAMS: (Sworn States)

MR MACADAM: Is it correct that you currently hold the position of a Director of Defence Policy within the South African Ministry of Defence in the South African National Defence Force?

WITNESS:   It's in the Ministry of Defence in the Department of Defence.  The South African National Defence Force is a component of the Department of Defence.

MR MACADAM: Do you hold any military rank over and above your academic qualification?

WITNESS:   I'm a colonel in the part-time forces of the South African Army.

MR MACADAM: And you were requested by the Commission to give evidence at these hearings and in response thereto you compiled a report in which you set out your qualifications and experience and the types of fields in which you are qualified to express an opinion.  You furthermore furnished a report in which you dealt with various topics of a military nature, firstly the meaning of "offensive" generally in military terms.  Secondly, your opinions in the field of counter-revolutionary warfare.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MACADAM: Do you confirm the correctness of these two reports which you have compiled?

WITNESS:   They're very brief reports, but I do confirm the correctness of them.

MR MACADAM: If you could - these hearings are being attended by persons who have not had an opportunity to study your two reports.  If you could then briefly indicate to us the nature of first of all your practical experience in the field of military matters?

WITNESS:   My practical experience excluding my academic experience is varied.  I served in

MR MACADAM: /the

MR MACADAM: 2A the former South African Defence Force as a conscript and then in the Active Citizen Force.  The bulk of my military training has been as a commander in the former Umkhonto we Sizwe.  I was, as I said earlier, a colonel in the South African Army and I have now civilianised in the Ministry of Defence.  So that's really my professional practical experience.

MR MACADAM: And if you can indicate your service in the former SADF, was that in a combat role or not?

WITNESS:   No, it wasn't, bar certain combat supportive roles.  I was in the South African Corp of Signals, although at a certain stage I was deployed as a platoon leader in the townships in the Eastern Cape in 1986 which is ... (intervention)

MR MACADAM: And in your service in Umkhonto we Sizwe, was that in a combat role or not?

WITNESS:   I was deployed in a special operations capacity primarily in intelligence, strategic and tactical intelligence.

MR MACADAM: And did you receive any training or experience in the field of revolutionary warfare during that period of your career?

WITNESS:   Well, the ANC was an organisation that was committed to the principles of revolutionary strategy.  Obviously part and parcel of that was also studying the principles of counter-revolutionary strategy.

MR MACADAM: And in your current position as a Director of Policy, have you gained any practical experience in combat roles of defence forces, or not?

WITNESS:   Well, the area that I'm actually employed in is defence policy and the notion of combat goes to the heart of the operational commitments of any modern defence force.

MR MACADAM: And if you could briefly sketch for us your academic experience and qualifications?

WITNESS:   I have a PhD in

MR MACADAM: /civil

MR MACADAM: 2A civil military relations which I obtained at the University of Essex which basically looked at the role of the South African Defence Force from 1966 to 1992.  I have written quite widely on a number of different issues including military strategy, military doctrine on indeed offensive and defensive posture;  on civil military relations;  on human resource, it's a very broad area which I've published locally and in international journals.

MR MACADAM: And there are two aspects in which you may be of assistance to the Commission.  That is the nature of the term "offensive" when used in the military context.  If you could assist us in how you understand that terminology.

WITNESS:   I don't - look, I don't think brevity would do it, but detail, so if you'll bear with me for a couple of minutes, I'll outline the different contours and permutations of the way that "offensive" is used, with your permission, Chairperson.  I think the term "offensive" - I don't think, I mean the term "offensive" is regarded as one of the key principles that actually underpin the principles of war.  When one speaks about the principles of war, one speaks about a very wide range of principles, including the political objective, including the concept of manoeuvre, the principle of manoeuvre including the principle of surprise and simplicity and security, but one of the key principles is the principle of the offensive, because without the offensive it makes it extremely difficult for an armed organisation to actually accomplish the political objective that has actually been set for it, so I - the point of departure would be that the offensive lies at the heart of military

MR MACADAM: /strategy;