Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.  I told him to wait so that our leaders can come and take a decision on this.  We then waited, time went on.  At round about 8 or 9, I'm not sure what time it was, some came escorted by other comrades and they said they found them in Khumalo, Zone 5.  We took them into the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were there?

MICHAEL ARMOED: I think there were six or seven, I'm not sure.  They got into the shack and some comrades left, going back to Bulelwa's corpse.  I again opened the shack door, "in reality boys, what is it that you did?".  One of them explained, saying, "we were taken by some comrades saying we should go and kill Bulelwa and Blanko."
	Another one said he said a name and another one asked him saying "speak the truth, is it not your father who sent you there to start the trouble?"  This young boy then said "yes, it is indeed my father, he is answerable to this."  I asked him what his father's name was and he said it was Buthelezi.  And I said, "I don't even know that Buthelezi, I have never seen him."  
	I then asked about Jabu, "what did Jabu do because yesterday I saw him at my place playing with my son" and they said "Jabu did nothing, he was not there when everything was happening".

MR MADASA: Is Jabu the one you say is alive and was your neighbour?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.  I remember his surname faintly.  I'm not sure whether it's Ngobese.  I am not sure about that.  I then said to him, "it is better that you leave", and he said that "because now that my hand is injured, how am I going to leave" and I said, "you must go to my wife, ask for some money to go to the hospital."
	He indeed left, did as I told him then there were these two among the three that we had captured the previous night.  I looked at them and I thought they are young.  Some comrades arrived with Comrade Nchebe.

MR MADASA: Sorry, did the ones that you say you realised they were too young, did you do anything about those?  Did you release them let me say?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, I did, I released them too.  Yes, they left.  As I pointed out, none of them whose name I knew.  They then left and by which time other comrades had arrived.  Comrade Dondolo and other comrades, many of them.  Comrade Dondolo, he came with two others.  Comrade then said, "we are still waiting, waiting for Sugar, he is going to come along with Buthelezi."
	Comrade Sugar and Buthelezi indeed arrived and he opened the shack door and put  him inside.  I peeped through the door trying to hear what was being said.  Comrade then asked, saying, "Buthelezi boy, just explain what happened?"

MR MADASA: When he said Buthelezi boy, was he referring to Buthelezi's son?

MICHAEL ARMOED: He was talking to Buthelezi's son, saying he must explain what his father was saying or said.  The boy then explained saying, "Dad, we are in this trouble because of you.  You are the one who drove us into killing people."  I could not hear Buthelezi respond.  He just kept quiet as I was peeping through the door.
	We then left and Dondolo spoke, saying he had found a decision, an order that they should be killed, they must be killed.  I did not have any power to disagree with me because he was my superior.  He gave another comrade a rope to tie them and he indeed tied them with that rope.
	They were taken out of the shack and moved downwards.  They were escorted, being beaten by the stick, beaten by another Comrade [inaudible], I cannot remember his name.  They arrived there, Comrade Nchebe and Dondolo said they should sit down.
	He had a 9mm pistol in his hand.  He just shot as they were sitting down, 4, if not 5 shots were fired, I'm not sure.  We also started shooting.  On finishing to shoot them other comrades hacked them with pangas.  We then left.  Everybody was sure that those who were left behind had died.

MR MADASA: Did you leave together, all of you?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, we all left together at the same time.

MR MADASA: Yes.

MICHAEL ARMOED: We then went back to F.  When we arrived at F Comrade Oscar complained about fatigue, being tired and he said to Comrade Dondolo he would like to be released so he can go to sleep.  He was released and he indeed left to go and sleep.  We waited there, after waiting after the comrade had left, we then left, came closer, approached Buthelezi's house.
	As we were closer, Comrade Sugar and Comrade Nchebe said we should just wait here.  We waited there, Comrade Nchebe then took the AK that I had with me and I told him that the AK that I had did not have bullets.  He then took the other AK that was carried by Shongwe.  He got into a shack that I did not know to whom it belonged.  He was with Comrade Sugar.  After a while we heard gunshots.
	The gun was fired twice.  They then came back to us and said "let's go".  I complained about my stomach, saying, "you know I had not eaten since yesterday, may I please go and eat at home", he indeed released me.  I left my AK with him.  I arrived at home and asked my wife.

MR MADASA: Did you later find out who the person was killed in that shack, where Dondolo and Sugar went into?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, I did discover after three days that it looks like a woman was shot there which woman was said to be Buthelezi's wife.

MR MADASA: Yes.

MICHAEL ARMOED: On arrival at home I asked my wife as to whether Jabu had not yet arrived and she said "yes, he did come but he went next door but he is injured on the hand, his arm and it looks like he had gone to hospital."  That was it.

MR MADASA: Do you know specifically which people you shot at?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, I know the people that I shot because I know they were, I think, members of the Youth League.

MR MADASA: Do you know their names or identities?

MICHAEL ARMOED: I don't know their names.

MR MADASA: [inaudible]

MICHAEL ARMOED: I am not sure because I was still new in the area.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] activities of the ANC Youth League before you participated in the killing?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, there are some things that I knew that I saw about the Youth League itself.

MR MADASA: What did you see?

MICHAEL ARMOED: One person came by the name of Alfred.  He was driving a 1400.  He is my friend, Alfred Makanye.

MR MADASA: Was he SDU or ANC Youth League?

MICHAEL ARMOED: No, he was an old man.  He was not an SDU member.  He was just an ordinary person.  We spoke and then he left saying he is going to Motlomo.  He would see me later when he comes back.  After he had just left, he came back walking on foot and he said boys had just robbed him of his car at the corner.  And I said to him I am also surprised because I was standing outside and I saw this 1400 driving past.  I thought he had lent them the car.
	The one boy that I saw driving the car was Vips.  I did not know the rest with whom he was travelling.  He then went back to his house and I said, "it's better that you go home and sleep, we will just see what they are going to do with the car."

MR MADASA: Did you find his car afterwards?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, he did, after a few days.  He found it thrown into a ditch.

MR MADASA: Is there any other activity of the ANC Youth League that you knew of?

MICHAEL ARMOED: No, apart from hearsay as to what they were doing, the community was complaining about them.

MR MADASA: Did you receive any information from your comrades, SDU members about their activities?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes indeed.  I did get some information from comrade members when I came back from work.

MR MADASA: Now if you were not - let me leave that.  What was the political objective of killing these people?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Our political objective was to protect the community.

MR MADASA: How was that going to be achieved by the killings?

MICHAEL ARMOED: We would achieve it by way of - we knew that the gangsters and Inkatha were harassing the community.