Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, I was not going to make a ruling on this matter at this present moment, and if I have to make a ruling, it would be later on.  I wouldn't like to hold this proceedings just on this basis.  I think we could stand down the witness and go on to something else.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, maybe if, and with Mr Polsen's consent and maybe he needs to consult, in order not to keep the witness here unnecessarily, we have already kept him overnight, if the questions could be indicated, if you agree on the time aspect of course.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not so sure that the Panel will be inclined in that direction, I may just indicate that from just the members on this floor, I mean on this level, there is a disinclination to allow the amnesty, but I am not making a ruling.
 Can we stand the witness down and is there anything between now and tea, because after tea, if it has to be, if we have to make a ruling, we will make a ruling after tea on this specific aspect, but at this point, I would like the witness to be stood down for the purposes of us taking further evidence until half past ten.
 We are pressed for time and we are going to have an early day today.
 Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Shall I call my next witness Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Van Rensburg, you are stood down for the moment.  Don't go away, you may have to, depending on how your negotiations with Mr - your lawyer (indistinct) Mr Van Zyl, go, and our ruling in the matter.  If you could just hang on until eleven o'clock.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: Immediately after eleven o'clock, we will be coming back from tea.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I call Dr Philip Mijburgh.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, earlier this morning I spoke to Mr Chaskalson's assistant.  Unfortunately as you know, he was a bit late this morning, and there was no opportunity to speak to him.
 The tentative arrangement was made between Mr Chaskalson and I, that Mr Vally and I would first have certain discussions regarding Dr Mijburgh.  Unfortunately he was not aware of the fact, due to the fact that he only arrived after the proceedings had started.  I do want to recommend.
 I see that they are discussing it, I think perhaps this is a suitable time to just take an adjournment for five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is intended to be done?

MR VAN ZYL: There is a possibility which is still being investigated as a result of certain information which was obtained this morning, from the offices of the Attorney General, which was conveyed to Mr Chaskalson that an application will be brought on behalf of Dr Mijburgh, but there is no finality yet, and we want to discuss with Mr Vally firstly in order to clear up certain aspects before a final decision is made.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, maybe we should ...

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the witness, where is the witness?  I would like the witness to be where he has been called to.  Are you saying sir, that he does not even have to be here to hear what you are talking about?

MR VAN ZYL: The initial arrangement was that Dr Mijburgh would only be here tomorrow, but he is available here in Cape Town, we can get him.
 He is available, I mean he is apparently inside the building or just outside the building, we can get him here very quickly.  He is not refusing to be present.  All that I am saying is that the proceedings can be cut short due to the possibility of an application, if we just allow that we have a five minute conversation, Mr Vally and I.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he not here?

MR VAN ZYL: He is not in this hall at the moment, he is available.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he not here?  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, I do agree, we did have an agreement with Mr ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you need the five minutes that he is talking about?

MR VALLY: No, I would suggest that we take an early tea, but on your first issue regarding ...

CHAIRPERSON: We can't talk tea now, tea is at half past ten.  Call your next witness Mr Vally, we can't afford to waste time.
 Maybe you must stand down to call Mr Mijburgh and get another witness.

MR VALLY: Yes, we could do that, but before that I do agree, and we had an agreement with Mr Van Zyl yesterday that Mr Mijburgh would be called today, so there is no reason for him not to be present.  I would suggest that before any further discussion, if we can stand down for five minutes but I think in that five minutes, Dr Mijburgh must be produced.

CHAIRPERSON: We stand down for five minutes for Dr Mijburgh to be produced.  Ten o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just get ourselves organised so that we should start in a while, we are two minutes to eleven o'clock.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, before we go on with Mr Swanepoel's evidence, I have indicated the circumstances regarding Mr Basson.
 I have discussed it with Mr Polsen and the indication is that he advised his client not to reveal it to us and that is also going to be provided as a reason.   I am not going to continue with that point any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Zyl.   Is Dr Van Rensburg anywhere around, Mr Polsen?

MR VAN ZYL: I see he is sitting at the back there, Mr Chairman.

MR POLSEN: I confirm the correctness of that statement Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg, I would like to call you to the stand in view of - Dr Van Rensburg.  Dr Swanepoel, if you could just bear with us.
 Mr Vally, did you want to put certain things before we ...

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, maybe the - is this in connection with which witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let me do what I was proposing to do with the witness.
 You Dr Van Rensburg, you are sitting where Dr Swanepoel should be sitting, but just sit there, just sit there.
 You yesterday, I think it was you who testified about things you had heard and one of the things that you had heard was how it was mooted that some of the toxins that were produced, might be used to affect the health of Dr Mandela.
 Was it you, I just want to establish whether it was you?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Mr Chairman, I made a brief reference to it.  My knowledge was very limited.  (Indistinct) overheard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, I know.  What exactly did you overhear?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I had a conversation with Dr Andre Immelman, Dr Mandela had just been released and he was making certain statements which weren't clear and we speculated on this, and he somehow made a comment that I needn't worry, his brain function will deteriorate with time.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you got the impression that there were people, somewhere, who were aware that an attempt would have been made, or would be made on his life in a manner that was covert and secret?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, I do not believe that the intention was to make an attempt on his life.  We had already, there had already been talk that such a thing should not happen because whoever succeeded him, might be a worse option.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the intention, as you understood?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: The intention as I understood it, was to reduce his level of intellectuality and effectiveness by inducing actual brain damage.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: That is how I understood it, I can't say...

CHAIRPERSON: There is a document which has just been put before you.  It is headed Secretariat of the State Security Council, dated March 1986.
 Now, towards the end, I think that is where I - in fact on the very last page - there is on 29 and it appears these were recommendations which were made to the State Security Council by the Secretariat of the State Security Council, can you read recommendations (b) and (c) of 29.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: (b) and (c)?

CHAIRPERSON: The very, very last page.