Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: I don't know. She's the only one who can say that and explain.

MR NTSEBEZA: ... [inaudible] line of questioning.  I would have thought you're possibly going to canvass new aspects which you feel had not been properly canvassed.  We seem to have gone over this area when the witness was led by his ... [intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: When he asks me a question I will certainly answer. Even if he asks me the same question three times I will definitely answer him.  When he puts a question to me, I will definitely answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you have the possibilities of an advance?

MR VALLY: Yes, Mr Chair, I would like to move forward.  I was hoping that I'd asked different questions, but far be it for me to disagree.
 Let's go on.  In your statement to us, one of the comments you make is: 
"The boys in the football club were rough."
What do you mean by this?

JOHN MORGAN: Because they would fight and will go to the shebeen and force things and even fight other people - myself,  I also sold liquor.

MR VALLY: One of the other things you mention in your statement is that
"MK cadres that came into the country stayed at Mrs Winnie Madikezela's house."
Is that correct?

JOHN MORGAN: That is correct, and there were rooms that were occupied by them, some were at my house like Vuyisa Shabalala, who stayed at my house and I even taught her to drive.

MR VALLY: You say in your statement that the house of Mrs Madikezela-Mandela was burnt down because of the activities of Mandela United Football Club. Can you elaborate and tell us what activities?

JOHN MORGAN: Because her boys, who were so much alike to lions, would assault people and fight people and the whole school went back to burn the house and I was there, I was not working that day.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] you say that there were people who were trained by MK members in the country - the people who were being trained, were you referring to Mandela United Football Club members?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I was not referring to them ... [inaudible] by the very cadres - the other guys who came from outside were taught by the ones who were inside here in the country.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: Even myself, I was taught by the very same cadres to handle the grenade and G5 and Makarov and Takorov and MK47.  I used to be in possession of such weapons and I knew even  how to operate them.

MR VALLY: In your statement you said the weapons were kept at the house, which house are you referring to?

JOHN MORGAN: I refer to Mandela's house, 8115, Makane Street, Orlando West 1, Westcliff.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] in Orlando West was burnt down?

JOHN MORGAN: She left for Diepkloof after that.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] at Diepkloof Extension as well?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: You say that Mrs Mandela was like a commander to these youths, what do you mean by that?

JOHN MORGAN: She was the leader. Whatever I wanted I would go to her to request as my superior or as my employer.

MR VALLY: The issue of a Disciplinary Committee has been touched on with you. I need to get some clarity on this issue. Are you aware of youths being brought before the Disciplinary Committee based on allegations that they were informers?

JOHN MORGAN: I don't know about the informers. I heard from her and I always tried to stop her from saying all sorts of things but she would say: "Don't tell me anything, you don't know anything".  I said to her: "You will remember me one day", and I think today she's remembering me and my words.

CHAIRPERSON: Quiet, please.

MR VALLY: The question I'm ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR VALLY: The question I'm asking you is, were people brought in to the house to fetch the Disciplinary Committee.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you know who the Chairperson of the Disciplinary Committee?  Do you know at any stage who ...[intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: No, I will not be present. They will go to that headquarters Lusaka -  I did not care as to what they were doing.

MR VALLY: Where is Lusaka - besides Lusaka in Zambia?

JOHN MORGAN: It's the house here, and there are rooms here, and when you move around there was another shack that they referred to as Lusaka.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] that was at the back of the house?

JOHN MORGAN: It was a shack.

MR VALLY: And this was in Diepkloof Extension?

JOHN MORGAN: No, in Orlando West 8115, Makane Street.

MR VALLY: When a person was brought before a Disciplinary Committee, was Mrs Madikezela-Mandela present at these enquiries?

JOHN MORGAN: In actual fact they would address these young men and squeeze the scrotum, and she will come and peep and go back again.

MR VALLY: Did she participate in these Disciplinary Committees?

JOHN MORGAN: Not herself in person, but the boys would.

MR VALLY: What sort of punishment would this Disciplinary Committee mete out?

JOHN MORGAN: I remember one day boys were brought - you know where they were fetched?  I was the one who was driving, they were fetched from Orlando West ...[inaudible] Uhmzumshlope and we took them, and they were undressed and they were burnt to a high degree.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] burnt, burnt with fire, with petrol, with hot water, or how were they burnt?

JOHN MORGAN: Burnt with fire - fire can burn.

MR VALLY: How many ... ? [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: Two.

MR VALLY: And do you remember when this was?

JOHN MORGAN: A few years ago. I don't remember exactly what year it was - I did not care much about dates.

MR VALLY: When you say these two youths were burnt, were they burnt to torture them or were they burnt until they died?

JOHN MORGAN: No, they did not die. They were assaulted and were burnt.  They had raped, and they kept saying: "You are so much problematic in the community, you keep raping".

MR VALLY: You have been charged and acquitted for assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm in the assault and mutilation of the Makanda brothers in May 1987, do you recall that case?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I had done nothing.  They were referred to a number AAC. They resided in Westcliff Extension. They would arrest them in my garage.

MR VALLY: Sorry, when you're talking about Westcliff Extension are you referring to the house in Diepkloof Extension?

JOHN MORGAN: I'm talking about Orlando West 1,  Makane Street - myself I reside in Bakwa Street. That was Mrs Mandela's house.

MR VALLY: Mrs Mandela at some stage moved to Diepkloof Extension as well, did she not?

JOHN MORGAN: No, what for?  She had gone to Diepkloof to do what?

MR VALLY: After her house was burnt down in Orlando West in July 1988, where did she move to?

JOHN MORGAN: I repeat the third time now, Mrs Mandela left for Diepkloof Extension - and I'm repeating for the third time, but you still ask a man the same question again ... [inaudible]

MR VALLY: The question is: "Did she leave the house in Orlando West for another house?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, she left the house because the house was completely destroyed as it was set alight and she left completely.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: She went to Diepkloof.

MR VALLY: Thank you.

MR VALLY: I need to ask you ... [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MR VALLY: You said in your statement that at some point you took Katiza to the ANC offices in Sauer Street and you left Katiza with Winnie because she told you to leave him there?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I left him there. He was staying with me and we went to Sauer Street next to Elizabeth Hotel, in the first office before the Shell House, and I left him there - I'm telling you the truth, I'm not lying.  She said I should leave him there and I did as instructed and I left.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] trial?

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] during the trial?  During the trial where you were charged together with ... [intervention]