Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I did go to Lydenburg.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you go to Lydenburg?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: A day after the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: But Lydenburg is about 300 kilometres from Daveyton?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I wouldn't know, but I presume so my Lord, it is far away.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you come to the hospital where the other people were?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: After my arrest my Lord.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you treated at Lydenburg?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, I wasn't treated my Lord, I couldn't do that because upon reaching us the destination, the news had spread like a, I don't know and it was very, it was a situation whereby I couldn't trust any doctor for that matter to help me because he might have as well had me apprehended to the police for that matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you the only one who went to Lydenburg
or did your co-assailants ...

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We were three.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And who was with you?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It was Elias Ratone and Absalom Gobela.  No my Lord, I am making an error, it was not Elias Ratone it was myself and Lazarus Matsomaye and Absalom Gobela.

ADV DE JAGER: Was arrested by your fellow comrades?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: It was who - Absalom Gobela and who?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: And Lazarus Matsomai.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, were you aware at that stage that Mr Ratone had been taken to the house by the comrades?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, I wasn't aware.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you leave for Lydenburg, what time?  Still during the night or when?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: My Lord?

ADV DE JAGER: Just after the burning of the house, still during the night or when?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We stayed the night and apparently we left in the morning if my memory still serves me well.  Because I remember I couldn't sleep, so I asked for some Aspirins due to the injuries that I had and I couldn't move on that said day.

ADV DE JAGER: Where were you sleeping, at your house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, in a hideout my Lord.

ADV DE JAGER: In the veld?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, in another section.

JUDGE WILSON: Where, in whose house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: In one of our friends', in one of people who were comrade friendly I should say so we regarded him as a friend, he gave us ...

JUDGE WILSON: Well, who was it?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I can't recall his name, my Lord, all I know is that it is in the - it is next to Madona, it is a section that is just above our section.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you often use this house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: This hideout, did you often use this hideout?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you knew the owner?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: How did I know the owner?

ADV DE JAGER: Well, did you know him?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, we knew him.

ADV DE JAGER: And now all of a sudden you've forgotten his name?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: My Lord, it is a long time ago.

ADV DE JAGER: No.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I can remember the house and the place where it is, but the name really I would be lieing if I say I recall it.  I am trying to jog down my memory.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't it perhaps that you don't want to tell us the name because you wouldn't inform on him?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No my Lord, there is nothing like informing in this present state.

MR BLACK: While we were on that issue about Lydenburg, I put it to you that when you approached Mr Sibisi for his car, the use of his car, that you actually threatened him.  Your group, you said to him, look if you don't take, if you don't let us take that car, or you don't take us in that car, we will take it ourselves to Lydenburg.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is an incorrect statement, because at that point in time no one of us knew how to drive.  So I
wouldn't know how would we take a car then.

MR BLACK: You see, again just skimming through the  - I want to clear all that up too about taking cars - but skimming through the record, evidence Mr Sibisi - he testified to that effect.  Do you remember him saying that in court that he was approached and he said look I can't take you.  He used the word here as "kerels", I can't take you guys up to Lydenburg, the car is not working.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I remember.  Yes, I do remember him denying that in court.

MR BLACK: I beg your pardon?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes,I do remember him denying that in court.

MR BLACK: Yes, but this is what he said.

MR CURRIN: Whether they threatened the driver to take them to Lydenburg or not, I mean is that material and I would ask my learned friend to indicate how it is material
to the application, this is becoming sounding more and more like a new trial.  As it relevant to the application, I ask that question.

ADV DE JAGER: We could believe  your client, the applicant, that there was a political motive and that in general his credibility.

MR CURRIN: I fail to understand that, but if that is the reason, then I must ...

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Currin, I have difficulty in understanding how you can say you fail to understand that your client's credibility is relevant to the proceedings.

MR CURRIN: No, what I am failing to understand, I understand that his credibility is relevant, what I am failing to understand is how, whether or not the person was threatened to take them to Lydenburg has an impact on his
credibility.

JUDGE WILSON: If this was a gang of young thugs going around threatening people forcing them to do it, it creates a very different picture than a political group doing something they thought they were entitled to.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, comrades spent many, many hours of many days threatening people to take them to places in their motor cars, it was common practice of comrades and if necessary I will lead evidence to that effect.  Comrades did that kind of things.

ADV DE JAGER: But he is denying that they threatened him.  And if Mr Sibisi would come and say I've been threatened, who should we believe?

MR CURRIN: I understand that as well and that would relate to every aspect of his evidence, so all I am saying is if we are going to go and test his evidence in that way,
it could be ongoing and I am just wondering whether it is relevant, that is all.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, just for the benefit of my learned friend.  As I have indicated form the beginning, I will indicate to the Committee that in the community in which Mr Ndlovu lived, the way he behaved, the behaviour leading up to the burning, the behaviour subsequent, the threatening of people, the wielding of sjamboks would certainly not conduct for - it is the conduct of a thug, really, or criminals.
	And that is what I am putting to you Mr Ndlovu, that you did threaten Mr Sibisi to take you up to Lydenburg, he didn't voluntarily ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Black, I just want to know are you saying
that the comrades would not threaten nor sjambok people in order to persuade them to do what they wanted?

MR BLACK: No, that is not what I am saying Mr Chairman.  What I am saying this particular applicant and their particular behaviour in this situation, was essentially criminal in its activity and not as political as it has been portrayed.
	I don't, I have no intention of cross-examining on the minute here of what took place.  I just want to put it to you Mr Ndlovu, that the - you threatened Mr Sibisi to take you up to Lydenburg, he didn't do so voluntarily.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: As I have indicated before to you Sir, that I am aware that it is in the record that he said so, but to my understanding no one at the time would associate with you when you were under such immense pressure.  So I took it, Mr Sibisi has a responsibility as well, he might have been a father of kids and has a family at the time, so he wouldn't
want to find himself being an accomplice to whatever acts that we performed.
	So I take it he had every reason to make you believe he was forced.  In fact Mr Sibisi was requested to help us.