Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do know that they had painted themselves and they wore balaclavas.  It was only the black people who had not painted their faces.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that Peens painted his face?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he had smeared something on his face.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this paint black?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was black.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he paint all his face?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He had just painted the areas that he is indicating.

CHAIRPERSON: So he painted the entire face, but for the eyes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter he put on the balaclava?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to paragraph 18 on page 21 of that statement.  I will read it to you
"... we got out of the casspir on the first street that we entered."
	Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: "... we got out of the casspir on the first street that we entered."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did state that we took cover when we came upon the first house and the casspir that we had been travelling in, drove slowly down the road.

MR STRYDOM: Yesterday you indicated the place where you entered the township, and that was the first street.  In that street, did you go from house to house shortly after you had entered?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I started before that.  We went into the first house and there were houses on both sides of the street.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, you said in evidence in chief that you went to five houses.  All I want to know is if these houses are in that first street and in close proximity to each other?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were on one straight.

MR LAX: The question was, were they in close proximity to each other, in other words, were they attaching each other or near by each other, one after the other?  That is what you are being asked.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  The houses are close to one another.

MR STRYDOM: Yesterday I asked you about the first house and second house you went into.  Now I want to ask you about the third house.  What happened in the third house you went into?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As we got there, some of us broke windows and we went inside the house.  There were people inside.

MR STRYDOM: What did you do with your AK47 in that house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I fired shots.

MR STRYDOM: Did you fire shots at people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you close to these people when you fired these shots?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you fire many shots?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, but I did fire shots at them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill people in that house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the Commission any indication how many people you killed in the third house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I am not mistaken it could be three.

MR STRYDOM: Can you say if they were women, children or adults, men?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were adults.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they women?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was a woman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say you killed, if you remember, although you don't remember very well, you think you killed three people, how do you know that these people died?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They fell close to me and I am therefore sure that they died.

CHAIRPERSON: They fell down?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I saw them falling down.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you assumed that they had died?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I thought so because they were very close to me.  Thereafter I went looking under the beds, but found no one.

MR STRYDOM: How many magazines did you have for this AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Two.

MR STRYDOM: How many bullets were in each one of these magazines?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It could take 40.  It was a steel magazine and it could take 40 bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these magazines full?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they were.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had about 80?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the magazine that was in the chamber of this AK47, you had another one somewhere on your body, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had two magazines and one was facing down, that is the one I was using at the time.

MR LAX: What he is indicating is that, he is showing that the one points up and the one points down, it is quite a common way of having two magazines on an AK.

MR STRYDOM: Did you empty the two magazines during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Did you count afterwards how many bullets you had left?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you empty one of the magazines?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not want to tell a lie, I do not remember, but I fired shots.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to paragraph 23 on page 22 of your statement.  I am going to read it to you
"... during the attack I finished four cartridges, cases, with about 30 rounds in each."
	Which would mean 120 bullets.  What do you say about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, I have been asking you to please speak up.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: You deny what is stated here?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I had two magazines that could take 40 bullets, now he is telling me about a magazine that takes 30 bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: In paragraph 23 of your statement you are recorded as having stated that during that attack, you finished four cartridge  cases with about 30 rounds in each, do you understand that?  You say that is not true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true.

MR STRYDOM: And you never said that to Mr Kjellberg who took the statement?  Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir.  I did not have a magazine of that kind.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, you did not say that to the person who took the statement from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, you have killed people in the first, second and third house.  The fourth house, what happened there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We also found people there and we went into the house.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill people there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did fire shots.

MR STRYDOM: Did you again fire these shots at people that were close to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, but not too close.  They could have been that far away from me.

MR STRYDOM: You have indicated a distance, can you just state which distance did you indicate here?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Like that far.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the grey box that is just behind me?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  From where I am, it could be as far as that box.

CHAIRPERSON: That is about four paces.

MR STRYDOM: Just for record purposes I estimate it between two and three metres.  So you couldn't miss the person at that distance with the AK, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: How many metres are there in a pace?

MR STRYDOM: A metre is a bit longer than a pace.  It depends on whose pace it is, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR STRYDOM: What I am putting to you is that over that distance, you would not miss a person if you aim and shoot at him or her?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please clarify that question.

MR STRYDOM: You had an AK47, you fired a shot or shots at the person approximately two to three metres from you.  Under those circumstances, did you miss that person or did you hit that person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I shot at most people inside the house and I saw them falling.  I don't know if there were others that I could have missed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, what is the answer, did you hear the question?