Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: No, the onlything I wanted to know, what is it that you would tell us that you didn't reallywant to tell us, is that what you have related now? Did you refer to this?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, because this thing didn't even come up in court.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Perhaps you can have a look at page 8 of thebundle in front of you. If you have a look at the last paragraph on that page,before it says signed G.

<UNKNOWN>: . Makoma, that paragraph, can you read and understandthat?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, I've read that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The descriptionof the attack that took place, as to how the attack happened, that is correct,is it not?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The one here is not the truth.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Let me read to you the section. You went to the church it says.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... those portions that you think you disagree with?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Sorry,what page is that?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Page 8.

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Where on page8?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: On the last paragraph before it says signed G.

<UNKNOWN>: . Makoma.It starts .. then Vusi asked

<UNKNOWN>: ubrey ...

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Okay, yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That paragraph.

<UNKNOWN>: lthough you say that some of the names are wrong, that is howthe attack happened, is it not?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Whatis incorrect there?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: First of all Vusi's name is mentioned herethat he is involved, of which he was not there.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: anythingelse?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I am still looking, please wait for me.

<UNKNOWN>: ressida ismentioned here, there was no

<UNKNOWN>: ressida there.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Then afterthat it goes on to say what had happened?

<UNKNOWN>: gain, we did notgo to Site

<UNKNOWN>: after this attack.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What I want to ask youis if now, you had admitted to the police here that you had committed the attack,why is it necessary for you to make up all these other things about the meetingin Kenilworth and what Vusi told you about the attack when he met you in Kenilworth.You've now confessed to being involved in the attack, the police would not surelyhave forced you to say all this? This is something you made from your own head?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I told you before - I don't know what you want me to say now.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE What more did the police want from you than the fact that youhad participated in the attack and that Vusi was in the attack?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: There were many things.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Like what?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Theywanted to know about the operation that happened in a restaurant in

<UNKNOWN>: laremont,who attacked there, shooting of policemen in Guguletu of which I know nothingabout that.

<UNKNOWN>: nd who did that, they had information that I was also involved.

<UNKNOWN>: nd as the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of the Task Force was arrested, the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander told themI am the one who is responsible for the ammunition. I did keep the arms.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Then, now you say you knew nothing about the attack on the policemenin Guguletu, but you knew something about the attack in

<UNKNOWN>: laremont? I don't sayyou were part of it, but you knew something of it?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Who toldyou that?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am asking you if that is so?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No, I didn't say that. I am telling you that I was asked things that I knownothing about.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well you said you knew nothing about theGuguletu attack, you specifically said that, you didn't say you knew nothingabout the

<UNKNOWN>: laremont attack.

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Maybe you didn't hear me or therewas no right interpretation because I told you that I know nothing about thesethings.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, was this statement used during the trial?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: s Judge Wilson correctly pointed out, there was no decisionon this statement during the trial, it was the other statement which was submittedand therefore rejected during the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this one used inwhatever way, was it used at all?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I don't believe it wasused, no.

<UNKNOWN>: nd if it, well you haven't established that whetherit was used?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: No evidence was led on the statements atthe trial.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know why it was not used?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It may have been that the Prosecution expected similar difficulties. I don'tknow. I cannot comment for the State Prosecution at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: It may even be that they accepted his possible argument that he was assaultedinto it.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: They clearly rejected, or the Judge clearly rejectedany suggestion that he had been assaulted in interrogation.

<UNKNOWN>: ny way, we don't know why it wasn't used. That is what I am trying to findout.

JUDGE WILSON: It was mentioned but not used, at page 47 of the record,after having referred to the questioning, prolonged questioning of the accused,the Judge there says the accused then capitulated, wrote a lengthy statementfor Segal and agreed to point out things at the scene of the crime the nextday, top of page 47. He then agreed to point things out and he said that hehad been compelled to do so because he had been assaulted by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. You see, it seemsclear to me from this statement, that you were well informed about what thetarget of the attack was and that you knew it was a church in Kenilworth andthat when you and the other applicants say you had no idea of the target ofthe attack, you were not telling the entire truth.

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: We are hereto tell the truth, so I don't know what you want us to say.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You refer in paragraph 6 of your affidavit to an attack at a house in Macassar.I beg your pardon Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I misunderstood the context in which it is written.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where did you get the 9 mm pistolthat you gave to Mlambisa for his protection?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was one ofthe weapons that was left by Lester.

<UNKNOWN>: y what?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Lester, one of the guns that were left by Lester with me.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When did he leave it with you?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was his own gun.

<UNKNOWN>: fter Vusileft, we used to meet time and again and he gave me this rifle.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: What other guns didhe give you?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: R4 rifle, but it was not used on the attack.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Do you know where he got these weapons from?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No, I don't know.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where did he keep them, where did heget them from to give to you?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I don't know. I just acceptedthe one that he gave me.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where were you when he gave itto you? Where were you when he gave it to you?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Where he wasstaying.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: In his house?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was not hishouse, it was one of the fellow

<UNKNOWN>: fricans' house.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Now, yousay you were told by Vusi that there would be an operation?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When was it that he told you this?

<UNKNOWN>: efore Lester arrived.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did he tell you about the operation?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: He just told me that there was going to be an operation, nothingfurther than that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why did he just say that - in whatconversation did it come up that there would be an operation?