Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-18

RUSSELL ALLY: Good morning and welcome Mr Rammatla, is that a family member next to you?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes a family member.  She will also give testimony.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did she do a written statement?

MR RAMMATLA: No she didn't give in a statement, but when we spoke at home, they said I should come with her because she knows what happened.

RUSSELL ALLY: Unfortunately, because everything that is said here has to be under oath, we cannot take testimony if a statement has not been made.  You have made a statement, a sworn statement and that's why we can take your testimony. So what I would ask is that after you have given your testimony, if there's anything that you've left out, she can tell you, but we cannot take a statement or testimony from her.  How is she related to you?

MR RAMMATLA: She is my sister in law, my brother's wife.

RUSSELL ALLY: I would suggest that sometime today she can make a statement to one of our statement takers who is present and we will use that statement together with your statement when we look at your case, but I'm sorry, unless people have made written statements, they cannot testify, I hope you understand that?

MR RAMMATLA: I understand.

RUSSELL ALLY: But welcome to your sister in law.  So you're going to tell us about what happened to your father, Mac Rammatla and this was an incident which also happened more or less the same time as the other incidents which we've been hearing about in Hammathla village.  I'm going to ask you now to relate your story.

MR RAMMATLA: In Hammathlala in 1979 the former government people came there to take our animals.  They took donkeys and goats and cattle.  After that, only after two weeks, they came back to burn our huts.  They burned them and all the property inside them, nothing was left.  My father and others were assaulted and the reason was because of the apartheid government and the members of the African National Congress were assaulted by the traditional chiefs.  They were sent by our chief called Ghaube Mathlala.  We resisted their rule, that was the apartheid government, we wanted our own government by the Congress.

RUSSELL ALLY: Is that all you want to say or are you done now on your testimony?

MR RAMMATLA: I'm finished but I don't understand the way you asked me the question, because the way they were injured, before a person is injured and does not go to hospital is treated at home and the old people did not want to go to hospital because they thought that when they get to hospital they will be killed.  During those times, if it was these times, we the people, the youth go to hospital because those people were injured severely. I think my father, the way he was assaulted, he was assaulted at home, he was assaulted in the veld, he was just crawling, it took two days before he arrived at home because they threw them away, he was not able to come back home, he could not even stand.

RUSSELL ALLY: I don't want to interrupt you, so I wanted you to  first finish so that I could ask you some questions, just to try and piece together what happened.  But if you want to continue, if there are any other things that you want to relate, then please continue.

MR RAMMATLA: You can ask me questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just about your father.  You say your father was attacked, now when did your father die, was it soon after this attack or was it much later after this attack that your father died?

MR RAMMATLA: It took time because he was treated at home.  It was a long time and after that he died, and the time he died he was always saying that he was going to be better, because during that time of the ANC, when Mandela took over, he went to Pretoria but he needed crutches to walk.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was that as a result of the injuries of the attack, because this attack you're speaking about took place in 19980, was it?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes that is true, because the injuries which he sustained resulted from the assault.

RUSSELL ALLY: How old were you at the time, can you remember, you are 41 now, is that correct?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes it is true, because when they were assaulted he was a person who was working for himself, he was confident.  After being assaulted, he was a person who stayed at home and he was just a person who was not happy at all.  We would just see him as a person because he's breathing at home.

RUSSELL ALLY: At that time during 1980, how much of that feud did you actually understand, or you telling us now what was told to you or is this something that you understood yourself at the time about what was going on?

MR RAMMATLA: No I didn't see it, I didn't nurse it, but I was told and I realised that it is true, because the damage which was caused at home was severe.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you weren't actually there when this happened, you weren't a witness to this, this was told to you, is that correct?

MR RAMMATLA: They told me because I was in Johannesburg working and they wrote me a letter and I came back home and when I arrived at home, I realised that it's true.  We didn't even have a family, even a single house.  We would just go around to ask for a place to sleep.

RUSSELL ALLY: This attack, and what happened to your father in particular, the person who you name in your statement, who you say is responsible, is Chief Benjamin Mathlala.  Is that correct?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes it's Benjamin Mathlala.  He is the one who sent the people of the traditional chiefs, because we were the African National Congress and because we were resisting his rule and he said it's better for him to take us and kill us.  So that's why he did that.

RUSSELL ALLY: All the witnesses who have been testifying today about what happened to them, so you know if these incidents were happening at the same time or closely after each other, do you know if they're linked in any way, are you aware of that or are you just aware of what happened to your father?

MR RAMMATLA: These things happened because of one thing, and they are the people who know it, but they are afraid to come with the truth.  That's why I decided to come with my sister in law because she's the one who saw all these things.

RUSSELL ALLY: We are going to ask your sister in law to write down a statement for us.  You say that Chief Benjamin Mathlatla wanted to kill you because people were resisting his rule.  What was it about his rule, can you give us some idea of why people were opposed to his rule, what was it about, this resistance and opposition to his rule?

MR RAMMATLA: His rule, when they resisted his rule, it was because the apartheid government took our animals and kill them, they said we should not have many animals and they said we should come back to the traditional chiefs and we didn't agree with them. They said we should have few animals and our freedom in the Congress, we agreed that each and every person should have as many animals as he can, and they took all our animals.  We had a lot of animals and they didn't want us to have so many.  They said it is better to be under their rule, under the TC and they took all of our animals.

RUSSELL ALLY: I'll just ask you this question, if you don't know the answer, then that's okay.  Was this part of the, what was then called the Betterment Schemes, a policy which was introduced especially in rural areas, do you know if it was about that? Or are you not sure what the actual policy was with regard to only keeping a certain number of cattle?

MR RAMMATLA: I don't understand the question.

RUSSELL ALLY: No that's okay, then don't worry.   Okay, are there any other questions?

MR RAMMATLA: I don't have any other questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: We are referring to questions which come from the Commission, not.