Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, I don't think we were incompetent.  I think history speaks for us there and this is why this Commission amongst others has been formed, with all due respect sir.
 But as far as the infiltration and or penetration of the Mandela household and the organisation related to her, was concerned, we did not have success sir.  And I am adamant about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, could you just guide me here.  We ought to be adjourning for lunch - are you just about finishing or do you want to come back after lunch?

MR VALLY: I am just about finishing Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you finish then so that we can adjourn?

MR VALLY: I will.  Mr de Jager, were there any direct instructions or was there an understanding that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not to be prosecuted possibly or was not to have had been investigated such as taking of statements from her regarding any incidents that she was involved in?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, I am totally unaware of any instructions to that effect.  What I am aware of as I have stated earlier on, she was a high profile person, she is an important person, she was at that stage Mrs Mandela, who had access to possibly the best legal assistance that anybody could have and I don't think it was uncommon for Mrs Mandela to give Head Office a hard time whenever she was approached or whatever.
 I think one might put it as Kritzinger has said, that one did handle her with kitgloves.  She is a formidable woman sir, with all due respect, and I say that with respect.

MR VALLY: I have two final questions.  Throughout your career in the Security Branch, were you ever aware of anyone being assaulted by the Security Branch?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Personally no.

MR VALLY: You've never witnessed it?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: I haven't witnessed it.

MR VALLY: You've had no complaints laid against you?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, not that I can recall as far as Soweto is concerned.  I think maybe as far back as Middelburg, Cape, if I am not mistaken, going back as far back as 1976, 1977, I am not sure.  I really don't want to commit myself and adamantly say no.  I have never been charged in a court of law sir.

MR VALLY: You have never witnessed askari's under Colonel de Kock assaulting people at Protea Security Headquarters?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Absolutely not, sir.

MR VALLY: Finally, we have had a complaint from the family of Sergeant Pretorius who was killed in a shootout and the allegation is that Sergeant Pretorius was set up and purposely allowed to be killed, because he wanted certain steps to be taken regarding the information he had surrounding Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.  What are your comments on that?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, it is so far beyond the truth, that it is even beyond absurd sir.  Fanie was a respected man.  I personally liked that young man very much and there is no way that that could have taken place.  Even if one reads the statements and the documentation which I had to peruse in the last week from the members of the Riot Squad who were on the scene, who was supposed to do the penetration and all that, I am totally absolutely convinced that this is, with all due respect to the members of the family there and Fanie's memory, that that is absolutely not so.

MR VALLY: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I have not forgotten.  The Commission will adjourn and resume the proceedings at two o'clock, thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: I mentioned that I was going to allow the legal representatives to put any questions if they had any to Mr de Jager.  Are there any?  Mr Richards?

MR RICHARDS: Thank you Chairperson.  I am having a certain amount of difficulty in understanding the chain of command.
 From Mr Kritzinger I understood that those above Mr Kritzinger were one Louis Watermeyer and Colonel Jan Potgieter, is that correct?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Sir, Kritzinger would have fallen under the command of Jan Potgieter, but Louis Watermeyer would have been under the direct command of Colonel Claassen, who in turn would then be under the command of General Coetzee.

MR RICHARDS: And then, who was above you?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Pardon sir?

MR RICHARDS: Who was above you?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: General Coetzee.

MR RICHARDS: Coetzee?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes, and the second in command General Nienaber who is also here, sir.

MR RICHARDS: Now clearly while you had limited resources and manpower was spread thin on the ground, it was of importance to you to process information and to get the maximum value out of it, wasn't it?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes sir.

MR RICHARDS: Who was the person who coordinated and processed and evaluated information?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, we had a system of desks if I might call it that, or sections, who then would work PAC or ANC or SYCO or SANSCO or whatever, and that senior desk officer would do the necessary processing and then report to the Commanding Officer in Louis Watermeyer's case then to Colonel Claassen who would then in turn sign the necessary reports and have them go wherever they needed to go.
 Relevant and necessary information or intelligence was then put on the table by that particular officer whenever it was necessary.

MR RICHARDS: And in Soweto at the time, you had Mrs Mandela's house which she, I think with good reason, described as a police station.  It can't be contested that she was an object of much interest?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes sir, but I also see the allegation that she was on 24 hour surveillance which is totally absolutely impossible, unless one terms it to be electronic surveillance if one wants to mention the so-called bug and or telephone tapping.
 It was not possible to surveil Mrs Mandela's house.  We had the experience one evening, I do not have the total details any more, but we did do a follow up and as part of that, we had to place two people outside her house to do surveillance to see whether a certain person would be coming to the house.  One of those policemen were shot down right in front of the gate sir.
 So, it is not possible to do surveillance in the true sense of the word around her house.

MR RICHARDS: But nonetheless the surveillance was such that her comings and goings and her movements and those in and out of her house, were watched as closely as possible?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: On an ad hoc basis, yes.  And maybe coinciding with what might have been gleaned on the telephone taps, then one might have tried to follow her or whatever, but it was never very successful.

MR RICHARDS: Now, it follows therefore that if you had an informer from within her house, that person would have been a valuable asset?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: With all due respect Mr Chairman, I did not handle the person.  The person who handled him and his Commander were not on my section, but from discussions I've had with Louis Watermeyer in the last few days, it would appear as if only in this particular case and one or two other cases, did he give any information of any value.
 He was I think one might in a broad sense, to be more of an as we say an occasion source, not a trained agent, informer in the true sense of the word.

MR RICHARDS: In your evidence in chief, you said you only became aware of Mr Richardson's presence on the afternoon of Sergeant Pretorius' death, is that correct?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes sir.

MR RICHARDS: From the evidence of Richardson, it is apparent that he was in contact with Pretoria for some number of months before that.