Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR BOOYENS: Which political objective - I know broadly speaking the political objective was to curtail the intimidation unrest situation etc., but as far as you're concerned, why did these two people have to be eliminated and how could it contribute in your opinion?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: According to my information they were two large gears - cogs in the revolutionary struggle locally in order to make the area ungovernable and that by eliminating them we would possibly be able to succeed in stabilising the area and in preventing this revolutionary onslaught from continuing locally.  And it could also have contributed to the broader situation in the country.

MR BOOYENS: Did you at all think that any other action which you had considered as you'd stated, could have achieved this objective?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not in my opinion.

MR BOOYENS: As far as the situation is concerned with regard to people who within the freedom struggle from the side of the police and the defence force, if we were to look at them were you aware that information was exchanged with people from SPES forces, Special Forces of the Defence Force upon occasion?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I'm aware of that.

MR BOOYENS: With other members of the branch?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were not personally present but were aware that contact had been made?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: In your opinion, did the politicians of the day - if not directly then by keeping silent or by implication, condone this type of action under the circumstances?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is what I believed.

MR BOOYENS: Do you further confirm the other particulars set out in paragraph 10(a)?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And although at a later stage it could have become relevant, did you have any knowledge of assistance being given to the defence force as far as information is concerned - also with regard to foreign areas, areas outside our country which formed part of the onslaught against South Africa?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I didn't have any personal information in this regard.

MR BOOYENS: But did you hear from colleagues about it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then in paragraph 10(b) you refer to what you regarded as your task, in other words resisting the onslaught.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you also state that violence had to be combated with violence or you fight fire with fire as it is stated in English, where did this attitude originate?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I can remember, it came from the side of politicians and also from police headquarters.

MR BOOYENS: Was this the way in which matters were regarded to be done?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did the perception exist - particularly with regard to the no-go areas, that normal policing was possible in these areas - you know the normal police officer in uniform investigating a house break-in?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, it was impossible.

MR BOOYENS: One could not drive in a police vehicle into that area any longer?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And as you saw it, was this already an advanced stage of the total making ungovernable of the country and the eventual substitution replacement of the Government?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And besides your task as police officer - this is just for the sake of detail, did you also regard it as your task as a member and supporter of the National Party, to be your duty?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And did you also believe that this policy was essential for what your perception was at the time of the continuation of order and of your own continued existence in this country?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now if we can deal with a few other aspects.  You referred to the statement of Mr Niewoudt and you have already referred to the press cuttings, but were you also aware of the fact that a police investigation had been made into the alleged poisoning of Mr Mthimkhulu and was ongoing at the time?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You said that you had read Mr Niewoudt's statement, are you aware of it?
	I refer to page 86 of bundle A Mr Chair.  
	Were you aware that as early as 28 December 1981, he had been confronted with allegations that the deceased had been poisoned - I refer to page 86, top paragraph: 
"At any stage inter alias had thallium poison given to him"
	So reference was made to the fact that the civil order in which the Minister was addressed just before this event occurred and which had been served on you, did you yourself have knowledge of this civil procedure served n you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And did this at all influence your decision to kill the two people?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not at all.

MR BOOYENS: A reference had also been made ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the summons about the poisoning your talking about, not the assault -  there were two summons issued?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, I will deal with that briefly.
	There was also an earlier summons I think on the 22nd - I think it was in December, for assault in which an amount of R40.000-00 was claimed, were you aware of this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I should have been aware, it's possible that I knew about this.

MR BOOYENS: That was a much earlier summons?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was the fact of the two civil summons's at all something that played a role here?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not at all.

MR BOOYENS: You did not apply for the alleged poisoning for amnesty, did you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You are aware and it has also been explained you hasn't it, that it would also be an action which could resort under this forum?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was it explained to you that you could apply for amnesty in this regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you take an informed decision not to apply in this regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Because I did not have any part in it.

MR BOOYENS: If you say you didn't have any part in it, do you have - that's now personally, do you have any knowledge of it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I don't have any knowledge of it.

MR BOOYENS: Reference has been made to a former security policemen Dirk Coetzee - now generally spoken, Dirk Coetzee made many allegations against  you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: In as far as the allegations of Coetzee are concerned - if they are true, have you applied for amnesty in that regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: In these and other applications?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you are aware of Coetzee's allegations, in other words those which you have not applied for amnesty for, you deny?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Your application for amnesty was sent off by your attorney on 13 December, that is approximately two days before the initial cut-off date for applications of this nature, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Will you please inform the Commission why you applied for amnesty?