Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS MOLOISANE: And the position that you've just told this Committee about, that is the secretary for political affairs, when did he hold this portfolio?

STANLEY GQIBA: I cannot recall, but he held this position for quite a while, I think from around 1992 and 1993 he was occupying this position, playing a role within the SDU's at the same time.

MS MOLOISANE: Now what was the stance of the ANC youth league in regard to people who were spying for the police and for the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: What bearing would that piece of evidence have in relation to the offences which were committed under the command structure of the SDU's, which operated independently, as Mr Gqiba has already testified to the other organisations, whether it be the ANC youth league, or the ANC itself?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You already have a very comprehensive picture.  After the ANC had made its submission in relation to how the SDU's were established, and what role the ANC played in establishing the SDU's, and how they operated.  We don't need evidence in that regard.  We fell the evidence we have is sufficient.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee Madam Chair.  I leave it there.  Now after the event of the 15th of August 1993, that is after Hapile was killed and after the attempted, attempted murder of Elsie Mokoena, did you see the applicants again, that's Abraham Mkhwanazi and Radebe?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I think I did see them again, but it was after a while.  They disappeared.  They fled.  I cannot recall whether it was 1994 or not, but I did see them after a while.

MS MOLOISANE: But did you manage to discuss the events that led, I mean the offences that they had committed, that is the murder of Hapile and the attempted murder of Elsie?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I did discuss that with them.

MS MOLOISANE: What is it that you discussed with them?

STANLEY GQIBA: In my discussion with them I wanted to know whether they were sure whether these people were informers or not, and they had to convince me that indeed these people were informers and they were guilty of all the offences that were levelled against them.  They assured me that these people were informers, and they went as far as to say that they had witnesses, people who could testify to that effect.  And usually in the township one could not have been singled out and be pursued for a very long time accused of being an informer, if that was not the case.  If a person was singled out definitely there must have been something about that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm very interested in what you are saying now, in view of what you said earlier on, when you explained that the stance that you and the ANC took then, was to explain to people that they were not to believe any rumours which sought to allege that any person was an informer, without having to verify that information or rumour, and that that was the advice you gave to Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi when they came to see you at Hollywood on the 15th, because it was known that some people could be said to be informers when they were not, and that's why your organisation took that stance.  So you are now saying something contrary to what you earlier on said.  Now you are saying there could be no accusation about someone being an informer unless there was merit to that accusation.  That stands in stark contrast to what you said when you first gave your evidence.  I'm just reminding you what you said earlier on.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now evidence was adduced to the effect that the two girls were at some stage prior to the 15th of August 1993 punished for their activities.  Do you know anything about the punishment that was imposed on the two girls?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes I do recall that, but it was not at the office.  We did not have the office yet.  We were using a garage as a place in Zone 12.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you there, or were you not there?

STANLEY GQIBA: I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this take place?

STANLEY GQIBA: This took place in 1990 or 1991, one of the two, I'm not quite sure.

MS MOLOISANE: Now on, during that time, what were the specific charges that were levelled against the two girls?

STANLEY GQIBA: That is when the killing of people started, and they were accused of the fact that they were seen in vehicles that were alleged to have been driving around shooting people in the township.  These vehicles included vehicles driven by Getisi among others, and ...(indistinct) that they were trafficking with the police.  It was not only two of them accused of this, there were others but I cannot remember them.  There could have been 5 or 6 of them.

CHAIRPERSON: May we know as a matter of interest, what their response was when these charges were read to them?

STANLEY GQIBA: They were revealing the names of people involved indicating that so and so came to fetch me and said we should go to such a place, and we would go there and meet people like Getisi.  They revealed the names of people involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they admit to spying for the IFP?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes they did, because they went as far as to tell us that they had handed over certain names of comrades to the IFP and we already knew that our names were known to the IFP, the enemies.

CHAIRPERSON: And on what basis did you decide to impose the punishment that you ultimately meted out, which was a lashing?

STANLEY GQIBA: On lashing them out, actually I must say that it was not only the youth league that was involved, I'm talking her also about the civic itself.  Other people in the township were also involved.  They were punished and warned that they should not continue with these activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any basis on which you based the punishment you imposed?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, we had a basis because some of their parents were present at the time of this discussion.  They were ...(indistinct) down as we were discussing that they should be punished.  Some of the parents came forward and gave us information to the effect that they had not seen their children from such a date, and the accused would then speak on their own, indicating who came to fetch whoever where they went thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know about the Boipatong massacre?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I know about that.

MS MOLOISANE: Can you recall whether this was, that is, the time when the punishment was ...(indistinct) on these two girls, was it before or after the Boipatong massacre?

STANLEY GQIBA: What I can say is that we were now using the Hollywood office during the Boipatong massacre.   I think it was before the Boipatong massacre, because at that time we were using the Hollywood office.

MS MOLOISANE: If you say you think, are you sure you were using that, or are you not hundred percent sure.

STANLEY GQIBA: Let me say I am sure, because we started using the office in 1992, that is the Hollywood office.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in any event you say that this incident occurred between 1990 or 1991, and the Boipatong massacre definitely occurred in June 1992, that's common cause.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee.  That is all Ma'am.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe do you have any questions to put to Mr Gqiba.

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed to do so.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  Mr Gqib.

STANLEY GQIBA: Gqiba, G Q I B A.

MS THABETHE: Yes.  Where did you reside in Sebokeng, exactly where did you reside?

STANLEY GQIBA: Zone 12.

MS THABETHE: Did you personally know Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I now them

MS THABETHE: Where did you know them from?

STANLEY GQIBA: I know them from Zone 12.

MS THABETHE: Did you know them to be IFP members?

STANLEY GQIBA: I have only heard about that, but not myself personally, I don't have evidence to that effect.