Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

ADV DU PLESSIS: 111

CAPT MENTZ: assumptions which I made and I think his brother who was 
also in a programme sometime ago, also said that he had said so, but it has never been proven to me in a 
court of law.  I never enquired about this, I left the unit, I did not want to be there any longer, and that was 
merely an assumption which I made.
	I have since distanced myself from Vlakplaas and the persons who were there with me, I don't 
even want to be associated with them any more.  The instruction which I received, as I said, came from 
Colonel De Kock who instructed Baker and I assumed that it came from Colonel Van Rensburg because at 
that stage he was in charge of Unit C1.
	Although I just saw that Joe Mamasela alleged that he was involved where General Engelbrecht, 
Nick van Rensburg and I cannot remember who the other person was, were
allegedly involved in the discussions.  I heard about that for the first time when I saw this.  I did not watch 
the whole of Prime Evil because it disturbed me.
	As I said I was under the impression that these operations had been sanctioned by Head Office at 
all times and that the objective was to eliminate anyone who was leaking secret information to the ANC.  It 
was also part of the strategy to combat the ANC and others and it was at a time when the country was in 
turmoil.
	Ngqulunga, I cannot remember exactly how it happened, but it was arranged that he be buried at 
Vlakplaas and his entire family was there.  It is not like where it is being said on the video footage that it 
was an official police burial, it was more of a private burial at Vlakplaas on the mountain, the hill there as 
shown on the footage.
	I can remember Ngqulunga's family and friends were all 
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CAPT MENTZ: present there and De Kock gave instruction that everyone was to attend the funeral.  I simply couldn't bring 
myself to attend the funeral.  It was too much for me and I just couldn't be involved in somebody's funeral 
whom I had assisted in murdering.  
	While the funeral was taking place, I sat in the pub at Vlakplaas and while I was there De Kock 
and Nortje came there and De Kock asked me why I was not at the cemetery and I told him that it is just 
not acceptable to me, I assisted in killing this man and I just couldn't bring myself to attend.
	I feel very bitter about this and I am every sorry that I got involved in this, but I believed at the 
time that what I was doing was in the best interests of the country and I do not believe that any longer.
	I would now like to mention in the video footage parties were shown and it was mentioned that 
thrice a month parties would be held at Vlakplaas - that was not the case.  	We worked for a period of two 
to three weeks and thereafter we'd leave and we would come back with our group of ascaris, we would 
submit our forms and our reports and then because we as colleagues had not seen each other for a while, 
we'd have a braai and drink.  That is so.  And occasionally there were functions where the Generals were 
involved, but it was not thrice a month or every month, although there were functions that were held at 
Vlakplaas.
	Vlakplaas was a unit under the command of De Kock.  There were certain logistic problems 
amongst the staff and the Generals at Head Office then decided that unit C had to be divided into three 
divisions.  Initially it was two divisions, Colonel Baker remained behind at Vlakplaas with 
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CAPT MENTZ: his group of people and De Kock remained with his group of people including myself, and in Pretoria we 
had our security offices.
	At the time there were problems between De Kock, myself and Colonel Van Dyk and De Kock.  
Colonel Engelbrecht then launched a third unit and we worked from a safe house in Midrand.  There we 
were joined by other members, including John Tait(?).
	There was one incident where I was present where we were in the team at Sodwana on the North 
coast at the holiday resort there.  We lived in tents and Colonel Engelbrecht was there, we were on the 
beach, but we are not the persons who drove over the tortoise eggs.
	We then went back to unit C1, Baker and - Colonel
Baker's unit, De Kock's unit and Paul van Dyk's unit.  Thereafter, however, I heard that  - while I was there 
there were no naked women with us.  Thereafter I heard that De Kock and his group of people from his unit 
were busy with team building again and I do not know if Colonel Engelbrecht was part of that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I have a few questions which I want to ask the witness 
just to clear up certain things.  
	Captain Mentz, the instructions which you received was there any reason for you when you 
received the instruction at that stage, to doubt the command in any way whatsoever?

CAMP MENTZ: No Mr Chairman.  As I had testified, I said that we had accepted De Kock, he had access 
to many Generals' offices.  Every day that he was working at Head Office he had access to the Generals.  
At that stage I wouldn't have thought that he would have taken a decision 
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CAPT MENTZ: like this on his own.  I am sure that higher authority was involved.  I cannot say exactly who the Generals 
were, I've mentioned - some of them had been mentioned before.  The only reason why I imply General 
Nick van Rensburg was because he was in command of C1 at that stage and I believed that it came from 
him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: ;	Captain Mentz, now what I would like you to explain to the Committee, is 
what you had thought at the stage when you received the command and when you carried it out, what you 
had thought the purpose of the command had been, the instruction, was it politically motivated or what did 
you think?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chairman it was absolutely political in the sense that a security policeman who 
was an ascari and then a security policeman at the same time, was in a
confidential unit, C2, which had all the information on the country, they evaluated information and if any 
information which had passed through C2 had been leaked it could affect the police, the security branches, 
and be to the advantage of the liberation movements.	Then it was political to me and it was important to 
me at that stage that should there be somebody who was a traitor, he had to be eliminated.
	I didn't know at that stage how much information he had given out, but as I said many policemen's 
houses had been burnt down, etc and it was important for me to do this.  The man had to be eliminated.  He 
was passing on information and it endangered his fellow policemen's lives, so he had to be eliminated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, during the period after the incident until you read in 1995 in the press about 
the allegations that he had been murdered in order to protect 
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CAPT MENTZ: other members, besides the fact that he was an informant of the ANC, did anybody ever tell you anything 
that could have led you to think that he had been murdered for any other reason than being an informer?