Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: Now in the statement that  Counsel has just read to you, you say the group that you saw, was made up of black people and white people.  Do you understand the question so far?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what he wants you to explain is, if from what you have told us you did not see white people in the group, those who were walking along the side, wore balaclavas and you couldn't see whether they were white or black, why then did you say in your statement the group that you saw, consisted of whites and blacks?  Do you understand the question?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so what is the answer?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: My response is this - when I saw that white person who came later to collect the dead body, I realised that those people who had been walking alongside the road, must have been white too.

MR STRYDOM: When you later saw the people that came to fetch the body, how many white people did you see?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said there was one white person and a black Police Officer, so there were two in total.

MR STRYDOM: That white person, was he wearing a balaclava?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I have already mentioned, he was wearing a balaclava.

MR STRYDOM: Now one further aspect ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just before, the white man who returned, is that the one who went to - is it the - Buwa's residence?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, as I understand your evidence, the reason why you say - you said in your statement there were white people in the group - is because later on, after the attack, you saw a "koyoco" driven by a white man who wore a balaclava and this is the "koyoco" which had come to collect a body as  I understand it?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this body being fetched from, is it from the Buwa's residence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: From the Radebe household.  It is the Hlubi household.  That house is sixth from my home.

MR LAX: Not the Buwa household?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, Buwa's household is opposite mine.

MR LAX: I am saying it is not the Buwa household, it is some other household?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Is it from the house on the corner where Hlubi and Bafokeng Streets meet?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.  From my home, you go down Bafokeng Street.

MR STRYDOM: Is that house in Bafokeng Street, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it is in Bafokeng Street.

MR STRYDOM: 722 Bafokeng Street, is that the house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: 732?

MR STRYDOM: 722?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: So you never told the person who took the statement that the group had white bands.  Can you give any indication where the statement taker will get that information from?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The Police could not be trusted at that time, they will do as they pleased.

MR STRYDOM: So what you are saying is that the Police wrote here white bands, whilst you told them red bands, is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I told them that they were red bands, if they wrote white, who was going to dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is trying to find out from you and again, let me please ask you to answer the question directly, he has all the right to ask you these questions, if you know the answer you will tell us the answer, if you don't know the answer, say you don't know the answer.  What he is putting to you is because you didn't tell the Police that the attackers wore white bands, did the Police of their own accord, simply wrote white bands when you had told them red bands?  That is the question.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I told them that I saw them wearing red headbands, some of them did not have them on.

MR STRYDOM: You testified earlier that this statement was read back to you, why didn't you correct the statement or the words "white bands"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I stated before that Police questioned me on many issues, so it is possible that they may not have understood some of what I told them and they wrote whatever.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Baloyi, isn't the situation that when you saw the attackers, that you also went to hide yourself and therefore you didn't see much?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would have not gone to hide, because I do not know if I was going to die or not.  I just wanted to protect my family, it did not matter whether I died or not.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of weapons did you see amongst the group that was outside your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Which group are you referring to?

MR STRYDOM: We are talking about the group of attackers, the people that you saw outside, carrying certain goods, some with red bands, I am referring to that group.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Most of them had spears in their possession, and home made axes.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the only kind of weapons that you saw?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, those are the only weapons that I did witness for myself.

MR STRYDOM: In your statement it is stated here
"...  they also had panga's, spears, axes, knopkieries and big, long firearms with them."
	Would that be incorrect?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see any firearm with regards to the group that was walking along the street.  The ones who were walking alongside the street, they were carrying long firearms.

MR STRYDOM: If I refer to the group, I refer to all the people outside, that were walking on the side of the road, in the middle of the road, the totality of people outside the house, excluding people that could have been in the "koyoco".  If I refer to the group, I refer to that group.  What kind of weapons did they have?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw spears, home made axes, the people who were walking on the side of the road had firearms.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of firearms?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know anything about big firearms, I cannot say.

ADV SIGODI: The interpretation was not complete, he mentioned that it was, the firearms, they were carrying them facing upwards.

MR LAX: Did you get that Interpreters?  Adv Sigodi says that the firearms were pointed upwards when they were carrying them?

INTERPRETER: Yes, we do.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

INTERPRETER: We beg your pardon for that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know an AK47 rifle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I normally see the Police and soldiers carrying firearms, but I cannot tell what type they are.

MR STRYDOM: And the kind the people were carrying that were walking on the sides, would you say that is the kind that you know see as an AK47 or won't you be able to say that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They just carried long firearms and they were wearing black tracksuits.

MR STRYDOM: Did you say that all the people that walked on the side, were wearing black tracksuits?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were not many, I just saw a few.  There was no time to start counting them.

MR STRYDOM: How many people would you estimate formed the total group, that now again, if I refer to group, that is people in the street, on the sides, the total group, how many?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There could have been 500.

MR STRYDOM: And you told the Police when the Police took the statement, that the group consisted out of approximately 500 people, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did say that they were about 500, in fact they were more than that.

MR STRYDOM: And you also told the person who took the statement that you identified Vanana Zulu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know that name Vanana, I know him by the name Mtwana Zulu.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but in any event you told the statement taker that the one person you can identify is Mtwana Zulu?