Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I would just to place on record that when we adjourned from here yesterday, we proceeded to the Early Learning Centre in Athlone, present were the Members of the Panel and those legal representatives who have an interest in this particular incident, as well as Mr van Zyl and that we, Mr van Zyl pointed out certain points, namely where the motor vehicle was parked when it was approximately 40 paces from the back entrance of the centre and he informed us that when the actual button on the remote control was pushed, the vehicle was approximately the distance of one vehicle closer towards the centre and was in a position, close to the entrance of the parking lot which has been mentioned.  The parking lot has a tarred surface and we counted 15 bays, at present a structure has been built on it which covers five of those bays, but we were informed at the time, 1989, it wasn't there.  We also went into the actual centre itself, we noted the position and the number and the type of windows there.  Some of the windows were frosted over, or painted over, but we were informed that at the time they were clear glass.  We also took a look at the hall in which the explosion occurred, and were pointed out the place where the most damage occurred, there was a hole right through the  wall in the far corner.  We also observed the foyer where we have heard evidence where the soccer club members were waiting, which is immediately out of the door of the hall.   There has been some partitioning put in there since, but it is quite a large area and we also took a look at the boardroom, so-called boardroom where the second meeting that we have heard evidence about, took place, with the Cape Youth and we were also shown the kitchen and an area where the night watchman is.  We also noted the position of the front door, which leads out to a street where there is no parking lot or area as such, and if any vehicle had to park there, it would have to park on the street.  It is a bit difficult for me now to explain what it looked like, but we have been told that we will have a plan of the area, and once that is available, will that be available today?

MS COLERIDGE: I have it here Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Then we can mark certain points, etc on that.  I don't know if there is anything else that anyone else would like to put on record regarding our inspection on loco?  Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Chairperson, one aspect.  I don't know whether you noticed Mr Chairman, that there were outside lights, two outside lights on the tarred portion?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I asked about those, unfortunately not in the presence of all the persons concerned, and I was told that those lights were not there at the time, and that there was no outside light.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  That is the light that is on a pole, that is slightly higher than the building, and its got two spotlights on it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Spotlights, they were there but I specially asked whether they were there at the time and they said that is quite a new one.

CHAIRPERSON: New one?

GEORGE BIZOS: New addition.  I asked whether there were any outside lights, to lighten up the tarred ...

CHAIRPERSON: Parking lot?

GEORGE BIZOS: Parking lot, and I could see none, and I was told that there had not been any.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think perhaps one other factor which I omitted, Mr van Zyl in his evidence talked about driving around the block, the block is not a block in which the centre is situated, it is a block at the back of the centre, it is a road that goes around an empty piece of ground, approximately and I am just guessing here, because we didn't pace it out, probably about 250 metres from one end to the other?  That was the block driven around.  Yes, well, if there is nothing, Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, before I start, I just want to place on record that I will continue to represent myself in a personal capacity as a victim, but I have also been approached by Mr Nathan Erasmus.  He is in this hall, sitting in the front row, he was a member of the Kewtown Youth at the time of the incident, he was present at the first meeting, the meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement on that particular night and if the Committee has no objection, then I would represent him and then furthermore I have been requested by Mr Osman Alexander, to represent him.  Formerly Mr Hockey represented him.  If the Committee has no objections, I will henceforth act on his behalf as well.

CHAIRPERSON: And if Mr Hockey has no objection?

MR HOCKEY: Of course not, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot see us having any objection for who you represent, Mr Williams.  Yes, if we may then proceed with the evidence.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLIAMS: (Cont)   Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr van Zyl, before the night of the bombing incident, what information did Gakkie supply to you with regard to the following aspects, firstly, what time did he tell you did the Kewtown Youth Movement normally meet?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already testified about that, that information.  The meeting would take place at 19H30.

MR WILLIAMS: What time did he tell you did the meetings normally end?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, that specific meeting, our information was that it would stop at approximately nine o'clock.

MR WILLIAMS: So did he tell you what time the meetings of the Kewtown Youth Movement generally started, or was he specific with regard to that particular night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Specifically regarding that particular evening.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ask him about, in general, questions about the time, etc?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I did not.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, where do you think Gakkie would get that information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot answer that question.

MR WILLIAMS: You have stated that he supplied you with information over a period of one month, can you recall when exactly he supplied you with this particular information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I have already answered that question yesterday, I cannot recall, it was over a time of a month, on various occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you asked about that meeting Mr van Zyl, did he give you any indication as to how many people would be at the meeting, whether it was a three people meeting, four people meeting, 100 people?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Chairperson, that is why the names were mentioned, it was reported that it would be a management, or management members of the Kewtown Youth Movement would meet there that specific evening, and referring to the names that appear on my statement.  I think there are approximately eight persons who are identified there.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr van Zyl, did Gakkie tell you how many members belonged to this movement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, he did not.

MR WILLIAMS: Did he give you some indication?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: 30, 40, 50?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR WILLIAMS: How many members did he say the Steering Committee consisted of?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We did not discuss that, or the managing members' names were mentioned in the statement, I think it is about seven or eight names that were supplied to me.

MR WILLIAMS: So your information was that those were the Steering Committee members?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Mr Hardien tell you what the average age of the members of the Movement were?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did he indicate to you whether they were youngsters, whether they were students, whether they were workers?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not that I can recall that we specifically discussed it.

MR WILLIAMS: What did you expect, would this be a group of very young boys and girls or people in their mid-20's, mid-20's, what was your own expectation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Persons in their early 20's.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the expectation based on information that Gakkie might have supplied to you?