Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MS VAN DER WALT: But that is how it is planned, is it not so, that if there was someone to fire a first shot, then the men would know they are also supposed to shoot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Mr Visser did not tell me exactly how we would go about, how we would go about with the shooting, but I assumed that when Martin fired the first shot, the rest of us would shoot as well.

MS VAN DER WALT: It is interesting that you did not know about any planning regarding the shooting, but you did follow the correct procedures when Martin fired a shot, you knew that you had to shoot as well?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that Phil Kloppers asked you to go and remove the bag from the car after the incident, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Phil Kloppers said that he was going to show this or give this to Japie Oelofse, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you ask him why?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did not ask why.

MS VAN DER WALT: Didn't you think this a bit strange?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I did not ask him why he was going to do it.

MS VAN DER WALT: This is an offence that took place without an instruction as far as you were concerned and then the ear of a deceased would be given to a General?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I did not ...

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, I am sorry, I can't let this go through.  My learned friend said that an offence was committed without an instruction, I do not know what she is referring to, is she referring to the road block, is she referring to the shooting or the cutting off of the ear.  It is misleading towards the client.

MS VAN DER WALT: I will rectify that.  You have just committed an offence according to you, there was no instruction coming from the General or from the Order Group, you heard no instruction?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: But now after you have shot these people, an ear which was cut off and according to you, this ear would then be given to the General and you did not find this strange?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did not ask Kloppers who he was going to hand the ear to.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, but you gave evidence that it was going to be handed over to Japie Oelofse, that is your evidence?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: But it was later in the vehicle, but at the house, I did not ask him, but in his vehicle he told me that he was going to take that ear the next ... (tape ends) ... handed to Oelofse.  I did not ask him why.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why not?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because I was not interested in that.

MS VAN DER WALT: But sir, how can you say that you were not interested, it is a horrible thing to take an ear to a General, weren't you scared that you would be in trouble knowing if the General found out what you have done?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: We were already in trouble at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: But what did you think the General would do?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I can't say what the General would have done.

MS VAN DER WALT: You are under his command.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I am under Kloppers' command.

MS VAN DER WALT: But he is a General?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Oelofse is a General?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you drove him around quite a lot, you protected him and his wife?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you knew, you knew what was happening unlike Visser who just recently joined the AWB, and you didn't find it strange that such a horrible thing would go to the General?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: As I already said, I asked Kloppers in his vehicle and Kloppers said that he was going to hand the ear over to Gen Oelofse, but I did not ask him why or for what reason.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to put it to you further, that Martin and Kloppers would say that you did not resign from the AWB.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I was expelled from the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is correct.  And you would also agree with me that there were two disciplinary hearings where you were reprimanded because you were not loyal to the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Van der Schyff before the 12th of December, you must have attended several meetings of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Only one meeting.

MR PRINSLOO: But you must have been aware of the speeches and utterances of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: How did you interpret this, did you see it as an organisation that was willing to use violence?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That was a political organisation which would use anything within their means to take the country back, even if it is by violence.  Eugene Terreblanche himself, said this.  He did not say it once, but he repeated himself several times.
	The day that the ANC/SACP alliance take over the country, we take the country back, even if we have to through the barrel of a gun.

MR PRINSLOO: So you saw yourself as a soldier of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you subjected yourself to instructions of the organisation?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you accept that what happened that evening was an instruction coming from the highest command structure?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I accepted it as an instruction because I received this instruction from Phil Kloppers, from no one else.

MR PRINSLOO: But did you accept that the AWB had a General Staff, it had a leader and that the instruction of Phil Kloppers should then have come from a higher rank?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: He must have received it from someone else.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you accept it like that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I accepted that.

MR PRINSLOO: At that specific time, Mr Van der Schyff, I want to be fair to you, the country was heading as was the plan, heading towards the elections and it was a well-known fact that a majority government would come into power which is the ANC, did you see it like that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did see it like that.

MR PRINSLOO: And were you in favour of this or not?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, it was not acceptable for me.

MR PRINSLOO: So, you would have in all your power as the leader propagated this, you would have wanted to stop these elections with everything within your power?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, he politically motivated us by means of his speeches.  He aroused a person and he cited people.

MR PRINSLOO: Would you see his speeches as rousing or whipping up people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I would see it as that.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as the other colleagues in the AWB, do you think that they also saw it in the same light?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, they must have seen it in the same light.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you discuss this with them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: All that we discussed was that it was unacceptable for us that the ANC/SACP would take over the country, at that stage were there any preparations made, planning to stop the ANC with power?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There were rumours like that.

MR PRINSLOO: When this behaviour became into being, you interpreted this as it was now going to happen by means of violence?