Amnesty Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1999-05-10

L N DLOVA: It was in Lichtenburg next to a circle, that is where the roadblock happened.  It was not in town, because in that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the outskirts of the town?

L N DLOVA: Yes

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mbandazayo?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, just before you proceed, may I just ask Mr Dlova, at the time when you threw the grenade, what was your intention, why did you throw it?  Your evidence was that in the confusion you got a chance to get away, but why did you throw it?

L N DLOVA: First of all, because of our duty inside this country we were here to fight the security forces of the time, so because there was that roadblock I saw them as targets because if we didn't fight with them we would have been arrested, so our job would be useless then and one of the laws of APLA - we were told not to surrender to the enemy, we were told not to surrender weapons or anything.  That was my intention.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlova, just to put it bluntly, your intention was to kill if necessary?  I just want clarity on that.

L N DLOVA: In a war people die and others get injured, so the fact that I had weapons from outside of this country, the aim was that when I meet an enemy, I would shoot.  If he gets injured, he would be injured, if he gets killed, he would be killed.  He would be fortunate to get injured.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that clarifies.  Thank you very much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dlova, can you then - after the incident, after the shoot-out, that confusion, after you had thrown the grenade, can you tell the Committee, thereafter what happened.

L N DLOVA: After that, after meeting Tsepho inside, behind this building we tried to go back to the people there, because the people who were in that taxi were also confused.  I went to Tsepho and I told him that Sipho was injured or he might be killed.  I was going to be the one who would take over and I told him that we must leave the scene before there would be any reinforcement so that we could be safe.  I then told him that we would try to meet with Medisi and we would take a taxi to Klerksdorp where we would meet and from there we would see what to do, either we would contact people from outside, give them a signal about what happened or we stay for a while and observe the situation.
   When I told Tsepho this he agreed on condition that he would try to call Medisi and then I left them, both of them.  I took a taxi and after all this, the police, I think there were two police who were trying to stop the cars and after 30 minutes they opened for the cars so that the cars would pass.  I took a taxi and then I passed the scene.  I took a taxi to Klerksdorp.  That was the last time I saw Medisi and Sipho.  When I arrived in Klerksdorp at the taxi rank, I stood there or I stayed there for a while and they didn't arrive.  I took another taxi to Johannesburg.  That's where I found out, the following day, from the newspapers.  When I was reading a newspaper, I found out that two people who were expected to be guerrillas, they died and one was arrested and one ran away, escaped.  So I didn't know who those people were between Medisi and Tsepho, who was arrested or who died, but I was sure that, as they were saying one person had died, I thought that it was Sipho but I was not sure about the other two, and as it is already stated in the affidavit, I found out when I arrived in Lesotho, I found out who was arrested between Medisi and Tsepho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
	Ms Patel, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

MS PATEL: No, thank you, Honourable chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi, do you have any questions you would like to put?

ADV SANDI: No, no questions chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Dlova, just once again for clarity, if you turn to your application form, paragraph 7(b) - it's just a technical matter, but it we could just get it right for the record, it says there:
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation, institute, body or liberation movement concerned.  If applicable, and membership number, if any."
It says there: "ordinary member".  Your evidence was, if I am correct, that you were a Political Commissar of APLA.  Is that correct?

L N DLOVA: Yes, that is correct.  I was a Political Commissar of that unit that was going inside this country.

ADV BOSMAN: And that was an APLA unit?

L N DLOVA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Then, did you at the time - your evidence was that you were going to attack buildings, did you at the time, identify any particular buildings when you were going to Johannesburg?  Was there any specific planning or were you just going to play it by ear once you arrived in Johannesburg?

L N DLOVA: We - at that time, there was no target that was identified yet, we just thought that when we were inside this country we would reconnoitre places and then consider security and when we had selected the area, we would consider the political implications of that and we would also look at the effect of what APLA was going to gain or to achieve.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one more question.  What arms or explosives did you, just in broad outline, carry personally?

L N DLOVA: In my bag there were submachine guns, six grenades, TNT, dynamite and these weapons as they were written here, each and every bag had these weapons, and there were also extra boxes of magazines.

ADV BOSMAN: And then lastly, Mr Dlova, your legal representative surely advised you that the possession of arms and ammunition and possession of explosives are offences, and the illegal entry into the country are offences.  Do you understand that?

L N DLOVA: That question had a problem because we were fighting the unlawful government because ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: We are not setting a trap for you.  We just want you to make it quite clear what you are applying for.  You have given evidence that you had come into the country illegally, all I want to establish is, is that correct?  It's a technical matter at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether you agree with the law as it existed then or not, do you agree that if you were to have been arrested you could have been charged in court and convicted for entering into the country illegally and also for being in unlawful possession of firearms in addition to the attempted murder?

L N DLOVA: Yes, it was going to be like that.  They were going to charge me with these weapons and because I came to this country not legally.  And I apply for amnesty as it is written here, that there was confusion, people died and people got injured but there were different reports of how many people were injured and how many people were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct in saying here, Mr Dlova, that you are applying for amnesty in respect of, from what you've mentioned now, the illegal entry into the country, the unlawful possession of firearms and any crime or delict that may have arisen out of the throwing of the hand grenade as you did in Lichtenburg?

L N DLOVA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any other - sorry Mr Dlova, that then concludes your testimony, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
   Do you have any other witnesses you are calling or not?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I have only one witness, just on a small point, it will be General Fihla.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson may the witness be sworn in please.

CHAIRPERSON: F-I-H-L-A?

MBULELE RAYMOND FIHLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MBULELE RAYMOND FIHLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?