Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson.  Mr Terre'blanche the leader of the AWB is a coward and I have said so at many Amnesty Committees.  If you tell people to go and do things then you are just as guilty as they are.  You have to stand your man then and if things go wrong you have to accept responsibility, but Mr Terre'blanche has refused to accept responsibility for any of these actions and I think he's left his people in the lurch.  He has distanced himself from people who are in prison and that is why these people cannot get amnesty.  You see it would be very easy for me to say but I did not give Mr Labuschagne any instructions and then outside I walk around freely, but it would mean that Mr Labuschagne would not be granted amnesty and that is why I have a problem with the AWB, and it is a serious problem that I have with them.
	I would like to elaborate there a little bit.  You have to know that at that stage when these acts of terror were committed it was against another background.  The government who took over, the ANC, came with other concessions like the Council for Volksraad.  I believe it was not in de Klerk's time, it was de Klerk said no and he hid himself behind the police and the army.  He handled the whole things wrong.

MR TAKA: One last question.  What is your comment to the suggestion that the acts of terrorism that you referred to were basically directed at black residential areas where there were ANC supporters and not at white residential areas of the National Party supporters?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, I personally have also placed bombs for which I was granted amnesty.  It did not matter whether it was black or white, we chose the targets.
	The post offices which we targeted were in traditional white areas where we launched our attacks.  It was about acts of terror which had to be noticed.  I would like to tell you the building of the ANC which was blown up was the property of a white man who was an ANC member.  When I heard that I was very glad and I said: "Yes, this person has betrayed the white people."  That was my feeling.
	But I would like to tell you that the National Party, I had the same feeling towards them.  If I could find F W de Klerk or Pik Botha then I would have killed them, that is for sure.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, just a few.
	Mr Kriel, you will recall that in your evidence-in-chief you said Mr Labuschagne would report to you and you would congratulate him for the acts that he did, do you remember that?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And I take it that those acts for which you congratulated him are the bombings on Wesselsbron and Viljoenstad?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And at that time they you were already aware that people got injured as a result of those bombings?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Loubscher, do you have any re-examination?

MR LOUBSCHER: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Kriel, what didn't come out clearly for me is that according to Mr Labuschagne there was a limitation placed insofar as the orders were given, to say as much as possible try to avoid injury or death to people and when he was saying that he was sitting there, I hope you were listening to him.  Now was he correct in saying that or the instructions were: do whatever you think is correct in your discretion.  Was there any limitation, yes or no?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, there were no limitations.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you cease being a member of the AWB, Mr Kriel?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I was finally absconded in December last  year, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you assist - did you have various cell, if I can call them that, under your authority or jurisdiction?  Because we know that Mr Labuschagne was given the authority to form a cell which he did with Messrs Botes and van der Watt and he was under your jurisdiction.  Were there other cells under your personal jurisdiction?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson, I gave several persons instructions to form cells and to go over to terror.  Many of these people did not react and nothing came of it eventually.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Kriel, in answer to the question of the Chairperson you said that you were expelled from the AWB during the course of last year, that's 1997?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: Is it the case that you during December 1993 were part of a plan to create the resemblance that there was a rupture between you and the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: I think you've got to tell the Committee  why it was necessary to create this smoke screen to create the impression that you and the AWB separated from each other.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: During December 1993 the fears emerged that because the AWB and the other Boer organisations ...(indistinct) start of terror.  The fear was there that we would be caught and we decided or Mr Terre'blanche decided that we had to protect the AWB and that we had to, we would have had a mock difference.  Then he also gave me an instruction that we had to maintain that smoke screen for other people, that if indeed they wanted to break away, that they could not be linked to the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Loubscher to interrupt.  We've heard from Mr Labuschagne for instance, that he resigned from the AWB just a month after that, would that have been a consequence of this mock set-up, this plan?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he have for instance been aware of the fact that it was just a ruse or would he have thought well, there is this definite separation, I've got a choice, two road to follow, I'm going to follow this one?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, but there also dissatisfaction on the side of Mr Labuschagne with regard to certain actions of the AWB but me and him agreed to that.  There were certain actions that we were not interested in.  The decision for him was actually quite easy to make but it was a set on the side of the AWB that in case a person was caught they would not create problems for the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, because Mr Labuschagne did say the major reason why he broke away was because he felt there was a lot of ill discipline getting into the operations conducted by many of the AWB people.  He thought they were getting a bit out of hand and he split away.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I also played a role in that he felt like that because I told him these things so that we could break away from the AWB to protect the AWB but my membership of the AWB only really ended in December of last year when I was indeed expelled.

MR LOUBSCHER: Can we just make it very clear then.  Do I understand you correctly that Mr Labuschagne did not know that it was only a mock break-up, he didn't know it up until today?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: He didn't know it up until today, Mr Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Taka, any questions arising?

MR TAKA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Sir.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kriel, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?