Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, daily we had morning conferences under the Chairpersonship of Gen Steyn, his rank was then Colonel and then later Brigadier.
	Apart from those morning conferences, there were special meetings held with the Officers' Corps whereby at various opportunities it was said that we must get this country out of this mess.  We cannot allow terrorism to take over and Colonel Steyn was a very fiery person when it is about the activities.  He places pressure on you to such an extent that it didn't matter for us how long we worked in a day.
	That, and then certain statements by politicians, activity requests for cross border operations, if there would be acts of terror the SADF would then react in a counter attack.  We had to react on all of this.

ADV SIGODI: Did this mean to you, that the only way was to kill people the only way that you could alleviate this pressure, was to kill people?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In some instances yes, Mr Chairperson.  In my opinion it was the only solution for the problem.

ADV SIGODI: The fact that there was this cross border raids by the SADF, did that, how did that put pressure on you as members of the Security Branch?  Was there some form of competition between the Security Branch and the SADF?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative, there was no competition who could succeed the most, but what I am trying to say there is that as with the politician statement, that we would follow them to wherever they go, and then there were certain cross border raids where we followed certain terrorists and I thought it right that when there were certain operations internally, in terms of elimination of people who were involved, or was in control of certain acts of terror.

ADV SIGODI: Did you feel that you were safe with your acts?  In other words did you feel that you were safe with your acts of eliminating people with your illegal acts?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairperson, I knew that if it was executed in such a way that no one could point a finger, it would be safe.

ADV SIGODI: And what if somebody could point a finger at you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Then we would have to carry the consequences.  I then believed that I would receive assistance.

ADV SIGODI: From where?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: From within the structures of the South African Police.

ADV SIGODI: In other words, there was a culture of covering up illegal acts, is that what you are saying?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, that is not what I am saying.  Chairperson what I am saying is that I believed that I would be assisted.  I have never been in a position where there was a cover up and where people in our own department was misled concerning certain acts.

ADV SIGODI: What was the basis of your belief that you would be assisted?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I believed that if we were so manipulated, we would not be directly implicated in a matter.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALAN: The investigation that followed after the kwaMashu 3, that you said Warrant Officer Petser led?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did he ever make contact with the Security Branch or firstly, was he in the Uniform Branch or which branch?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, he was from the Investigative Personnel from the Security Branch.

MR MALAN: Did he ever ask you if the operatives under your control, had any involvement in it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, negative Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did he never consider that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, it was never considered.  It was only dealt with as a purely terrorist investigation.

MR MALAN: And then just your answers on questions that Mr Prior put to you, specifically concerning Bhila.
	You testified that the first time that you heard about Bhila's elimination and how it occurred, was with the amnesty application?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: The evidence that we heard earlier on, concerning the applications of Bosch and others and McCarter as well as Wasserman, and that is that he then continued with his activities and that Taylor put it to them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I heard that evidence.

MR MALAN: In other words, he was an active member of one of the structures, otherwise he wouldn't have been charged in the first place?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And you picked him up with your involvement in investigations in Amanzimtoti and as well as the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Did you have knowledge of the fact that he suddenly appeared out of circulation in the structures?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairperson.  The information at that stage was that he left the country for further military training.

MR MALAN: Who gave you this information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It came through the normal information structures.  He was a prominent person.  He was not the only person who at that stage, disappeared for training outside of the country.

MR MALAN: The people who went for training outside of the country, did you also try to follow them with the information structure, to find out what they were doing and where they were?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did you try to follow Bhila?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I believe so Mr Chairperson, there would be a dossier for him, concerning him leaving the country.

MR MALAN: You never asked Wasserman if he would know anything about Bhila?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, it was not necessary for me to ask this.

MR MALAN: Why not?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There was nothing that made me suspicious that there was something else, that he just left the country for military training.

MR MALAN: Did you think that the elimination actions, that you were involved in, were the only ones that took place within your unit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I believed it.

MR MALAN: You did not think that any of the other members were involved in acts like these except where you were in command and coordinated it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: May the witness be excused Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I have a few questions.

MR VISSER: I am sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told us that the information you got from the normal channels was that Bhila had left the country for military training?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And we know that information is totally inaccurate and unreliable?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I agree with you there.

CHAIRPERSON: So your other similar information, may have been equally unreliable?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should just Bhila be inaccurate?  Why should you be able that other information was accurate?  You told us that the Bhila information came through your normal channels?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And we know that it was totally inaccurate, don't we?  You have just agreed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I also heard from the evidence of Wasserman that it was created that this person just left the country.

CHAIRPERSON: And we know don't we, that he couldn't have gone back to any activities, because he was murdered three days after he was released?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I heard that in the evidence, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fact the instructions, the evidence was that the instructions were given a day or so after his release.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem again false information was given?