Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes, thank you.

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr McBride, may I just deal with something in that regard.   You had returned into the country with the necessary explosives for the car bomb operation on the 12th, correct, the 12th of June 1986?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, the purpose for going out during that week was to go and pick up weapons for a car bomb specifically, and secondly for some weapons to prepare a DLB for another unit coming into the country.  I prepared the car specifically to receive the SZ6 charges for the car bomb.

MR DEHAL: And Mr McBride in as much as you returned on the 12th, this operation was carried out on the 14th?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: Did you do additional reconnaissance work between the 12th and the 14th or had you set your mind on the target by then?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, the target was already, my mind was set on it already, that is why I discussed it with the Commander when I went back to receive the formal instructions.  There was no change or regard to any other target at that stage, once the go-ahead was given and I think it is better if I read through it.

MR DEHAL: Yes, sorry before you do.  In paragraph 3 you deal with the Gaberone raid.   May I show you the annexures, sorry that is on paragraph 13 in (iii), Annexure G which contains a letter but in particular the Setchaba aspect, is that the raid?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.  In fact this house, I was shown this house by I think it was Chris, the very same house that is photographed here.

MR DEHAL: You recall that in his evidence he confirmed that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: He also said that he showed you other premises as well?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, may I hand in these copies.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they copies of photographs?

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr Chairperson, they are copies of in the first place, a letter from the African National Congress which I will deal with much later, but in particular it has a photograph of the Botswana massacre as it is entitled and it deals with in part as victims who were very soft targets, the South African raid in Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: So but they all go together, we will call that Exhibit J, we won't have an I.  How many pages are there, J1, J2, J3?

MR DEHAL: Ten pages Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: J1 through to J10.  Sorry, did we have an H.

MR DEHAL: I don't think ...

CHAIRPERSON: H, H1 through to H10.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr McBride you had gone on to paragraph, the top of page 11(a) where you dealt with the middle of that part, you talked of only one SZ6 charge was kept for retaliation and then you dealt with the attack on the South African regime.  Can you continue?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, just to add on, on the police station, the idea was to overrun the police station and leave charges behind so that it would be damaged and policemen would be, of the Wentworth police station, would be killed, killed and overrun, yes.

MR DEHAL: But that operation was not carried out?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It was not carried out.

MR DEHAL: Then you say Intelligence gathering for this operation was thorough, unambiguous and over a long period of time by myself and others.  Do you see that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: Can you continue?
MR McBRIDE
	"In particular by Gordon Webster and his unit.  Gordon Webster was first given instruction to prepare a car bomb for the same period in which it took place.  He approached me to assist with the choice of targets and reconnaissance of the ...(indistinct) Military base."

MR DEHAL: Now I see you turn to reconnaissance and Intelligence gathering, relating one pointedly to the Why Not operation?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is right, yes.

MR DEHAL: And you have broken that up into sub-paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e)?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: Will you read those?
MR McBRIDE
	"I would like to begin by recording that the TRC report records that my reconnaissance of this bar to ascertain whether it was frequented by enemy personnel, had been conducted in an extremely amateurish and naive manner."

MR DEHAL: Sorry, that is a quotation from the report itself where it says his claim, meaning your claim ...
MR McBRIDE
	"His claim that the Magoo's bar was targeted because it was believed to be a rendezvous for SADF members, could not be substantiated.  None of those killed or injured, had any link to the military or SAP.  This was recorded pursuant to my Section 29 evidence and is incorrect for amongst other things, I was not questioned on an in depth level at the Section 29 enquiry about reconnaissance.  It was a very superficial questioning with regards to this.  I simply answered the questions asked of me.  
	The above TRC report was not confirmed by me, nor was I given the opportunity to respond to the opinions there recorded as for example former President F.W. de Klerk was.  I never stated specifically at any point that the SADF was a target.  During the early part of 1986 before Easter, Gordon Webster was tasked with looking into the possibility of carrying out a car bomb attack on Natal Command Military Base on the Marine Parade.  He approached me to assist in the reconnaissance in this regard.   
	On numerous occasions we reconnoitred the place and placed it under surveillance.  We looked at alternatives of the type of attack that can be used, we then came to the conclusion that a car bomb would not be appropriate for the Military base, mainly because of the openness of the area and secondly because no private cars were allowed to park close to the premises of Natal Command.   During this period I also explained to Gordon my information, which was discussed during 1984 and 1985 of the general belief amongst activists at that time, when I frequented the Alan Taylor residence, that the Why Not bar was frequented by large numbers of police and military personnel.  I also explained to Gordon the conversation I overheard during an unconnected court appearance in which police were discussing visiting the Why Not bar.  Gordon then noted this information and said he would carry out further reconnaissance and Intelligence gathering on the matter."
	I would just like a moment to confer with my ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry before you do that, just for my own information.  The Why Not bar, was it just a bar, a drinking place or did it have dancing and music, cabaret, would you go and eat?  What was it exactly?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: My understanding, I am not sure at which state I received the information was that on Why Not there was a bar and there was life music on the other side, Magoo's.  I attempted to enter the bar at one stage and I was told it was full when clearly it was not full.  So I was not allowed to get in there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you sir.
	"At this stage Gordon indicated to me that he would continue with the reconnaissance and Intelligence of the Why Not bar to see if it was frequented by Security Force personnel.  He subsequently reported to me that the place was indeed frequented by Security Force personnel and said it was infested with police from C.R. Swart Square.  (That is the word he used - infested)."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr McBride, once again, if you could just for my own information, whereabouts is C.R. Swart Square?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It is within walking distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the Why Not bar?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A long walk, a short walk, is it in that vicinity?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It is not a short walk, but it is in walking distance.