Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-06-02

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson, do I swear in all the witnesses or just two?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Just the two.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Okay. Could you stand please?
Magmoed Shafiek and Georgina Williams, May I start with Georgina Williams?
Will you raise your right hand please? Do you affirm or do you want to swear?

MS WILLIAMS: Swear.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Alright. Do you swear that the evidence you're about to give is the truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God?
MS WILLIAMS:

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mohammed Shafiek, do you swear that the evidence that you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God?

MR SHAFIEK: Ja.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Dr Orr.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Magmoed, Good morning. We are going to start with your evidence. You are going to talk about the death of your son Shaun, which was an incident which I know has affected your family deeply and very painfully for all these years and I know that the decision to come to the commission was also a very difficult one for you, but we're very grateful for you for coming here and we do hope that your experience of talking about your pain will be a step on the journey towards healing and we are very grateful that you have had the courage and the commitment to come here and participate in this process. I am going to hand over to you now to tell us the story of that day in 1985 and tell us about your son Shaun.

MR SHAFIEK: Ja, First of all, I want to make apology for the mother of Shaun. She couldn't be here because of, she feels she can't stand it anymore, about the open wounds again. And secondly, I'd like to say that I wasn't present at the time of the incident, but I haven't got much to say, I'm very glad that we've got this opportunity because we never had this opportunity of getting the truth out of every one of those guys was killing the boys, and secondly I want to say to the T.R.C. I'm very welcome.
 First of all I didn't want to come to this hearing because I didn't want to get muddled up again about the whole incident and I'm truly sorry for what I said when I was there at the office and I apologise for the way I act and I hope that everything of the best for the T.R.C. and hope that everything will come out fine. Thank you.

WENDY ORR: Mr Magmoed, thank you very much, and you don't need to apologise, we understand how difficult this process has been for you. Can you maybe just tell us a little bit about Shaun, how old was he, was he in school, give us a picture of your son.

MR MAGMOED: Ja, he was at school. He was std.7 and actually he was mostly motivated in sports and going with his friends and at that time he was at his friend's house and that's all I know. They've told me that he wanted to come out and then he heard the shooting that was going on and then he turned his back and as he turned his back all the bullets went into his back.

WENDY ORR: Who actually told you that your son had died, did the police come and inform you of the shooting?

MR MAGMOED: No. I was at the work an they phoned me at work, that there was an incident in Thornton Road and my son was killed in that incident, so I just had to left there and go, I didn't know how or where I had to go but I just went berserk and I had to sit still and ......

WENDY ORR: I can see these memories are very painful for you, you can take your time and when you are ready you can speak again.

MR MAGMOED: Uh-uh, I don't want to speak again.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Mr Magmoed. This has been a difficult experience for you today. We really do extend our hands of compassion and healing to you. I now hand back to the chair.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: (Indistinct murmuring)

WENDY ORR: Mrs Williams, your child was also one of those killed on that horrific day in 1985. Your son was Michael Miranda, can you tell us a little bit about him and your experience and feelings about the incident.

MRS WILLIAMS: Michael was eleven at the time and he was a quiet boy. The day that he was shot I was at work and I only found out the next day that he was dead, because at the time of the shooting people were taking kids into their houses and I was still hoping that he was waiting at one of the houses. And only the next day, my brother-in-law went to the mortuary and found Michael there. And we were searching the whole night for him, looking for him but couldn't find him. But I still prayed that he was safe, maybe somebody had kept him and it was only about eleven o'clock the Wednesday that we found out that he was in the mortuary and me and my husband went to go and identify the body. He was full of bullets.
 He had two bullets in his forehead, holes, and about three down his face, and only at the court, when we heard the autopsy report, then they said he had a lot of bullet holes all over his body. He had a bullet even in his throat.

WENDY ORR: I think one of the things which has affected me most as we've being going through the process of the truth commission, is this story of mothers and parents looking desperately for their children, and not knowing what happened to them, and I can understand how very painful that period must have been for you. Mr Williams, would you like to add anything?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Viola, could you help pull the mike towards Mr Williams please?

MR WILLIAMS: It's alright. Yes I want to add something. The night on the killing, we were at home. We didn't know about nothing what happened. She went searching, I was sitting with my new born baby and my eldest daughter. She went out searching, searching the whole place. So she comes back, she went to the police, she asked them and they just chuck her off like that. One policeman was putting his hand in our face like, I don't want to swear, like "Voetsek, gaan huis toe, ons het niks vokkol met jou te doen, jou kind is nie hier nie" (Just go home, we don't want to have anything to do with you) ....feeling bad, so I check, no man this is wrong. So the next morning she reckon to me "Okay, you go to work". I go to work but I didn't feel alright. So at work they phone me, something happened. Michael was killed. So I came home, so I went over to my brother-in-law and we got chatting. And all these instances, I check myself "Why, how, for what? What did this children did to them? Nothing. And as the day go, we went to the mortuary, we identified the body, and since that day I realised, "No man that can't happen". I mean a pikkie against a gun, and still they brought a piece of stone, like the pikkie was, er, in self defence. He defend himself with a stone. You stand with guns and I stand with a stone. I'm a ten year, almost, he was at that time ten and a half, but he was eleven.
 But I feel it was not right and the point is this, today there, Pikkie is not there but the pain is still here. As I'm sitting here, I was thinking, it's like a bike without wheels, that's how we feel. You see and what can we do? We must face it. But everyday there was nobody even come to us and comfort us, nothing like that. You see, not even the policemen and as the killings went on, they came in one night, they came into our yard, our front yard, not in our front yard, just in front, but the police vans and big trucks start shooting from our place, and they didn't even care who's dead or who's what, they just keep going. That's all what I can say.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Mr Williams, I'd like now to hand back to our chairperson before I complete to see if any of the other question, or the other commissioners want to ask questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you members of the panel, anyone who wants to ask questions? Mapule?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: How long after the children left the house did the shooting begin? Just a guestimate.