Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: In my situation I was not checking anything that was political, I was just taking an order.  My commander was the one who had some political motivation, I was just a soldier on the ground and I would be told what to do and I would do that.  He is the one who is in a better position to answer as to the political motivation and why did he ask me to transport the people and why did he allow the people to go and shoot at the people.  That is where my assignment ends.

MR HUGO: No, but your commander must have told against  whom this operation was directed.  What did he say?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He said the people who were being infiltrated were going to be shot at.  And I am sure you were here listening as I've been mentioning this.  I told you that the people from Chesterville were infiltrated by the askaris from Vlakplaas, ...(indistinct) they were going to be shot.

MR HUGO: Yes, I just asked you about three times now, you remember that you testified in-chief that this was actually directed against the UDF.  Do you remember you said that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR HUGO: So now why are you battling so much to tell us that this was really what it was directed against?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I did mention that.  Even now you can read that and you are even telling me because I have told you that and you are asking me again.  I'm just answering your question.  I told you that this was directed to the UDF members.

MR HUGO: And did you see the UDF as a political organisation that was opposed to the government of the day at the time?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is true.

MR HUGO: Well I'll tell you why I'm asking these questions.  There's a simple reason and that is, Mr de Kock will testify and he will say the UDM was never mentioned by him to you and/or other people.  What do you say to that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know, maybe I was insane, I do not know.  Because everything that I am saying here today people are disputing and you even said that I lied.  Truly speaking he told me about that.  The reason for me to apply for amnesty here today it is solely because de Kock told me that they were going to kill the UDF(sic) members, people who were infiltrated by the askaris.  I cannot go further than that, that is the only thing that I was told by Mr de Kock on that particular day.

MR HUGO: I was also very interested to hear that your version is that you were Mr de Kock's driver at the time.  When did you become his driver, Mr Nofomela?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember, but in 1986 up to September 1986.  I did not know where I started, but I only know that I did that job up to September 1986, working as de Kock's driver.

MR HUGO: And you were now his permanent driver at the time?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know that, whether I was going to be permanent, that was in his hands.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And you drove Mr de Kock down from Vlakplaas to Durban.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I used to take him wherever he would like to go because he had groups deployed in provinces.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And when you drove down to Durban, did you stop somewhere on the way here for lunch or breakfast or something to drink?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, many times we wouldn't drive from Pretoria to Durban without a stop, because we had to get some petrol and it is obvious that we had to stop somewhere.

MR HUGO: Yes, no I'm talking specifically about this incident, when you came down for the Chesterville incident.  You can't remember I take it, as to whether you stopped over at places etc., etc.  What I do want to ask you and what you should be able to recall is, what was discussed between you and Mr de Kock as to why you were coming down to Durban, during this journey.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He would not tell me.  Usually we would move to Ladybrand or Rustenburg, looking for the - checking the people who were deployed there.  He did not specifically mention the reason.  I did not see it as necessary.

MR HUGO: And you didn't ask him as to why you're going down to Durban?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I could not ask him that question.  Who am I to ask him that kind of a question?

MR HUGO: Yes.  And who else was with you in the car when you drove down?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said I was Mr de Kock's driver, that means it was myself and him, Sir.

MR HUGO: So are you saying it's just a two-seater car and there couldn't have been other passengers in the car?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It was a BMW, 325 BMW.

MR HUGO: So why are you saying it could only have been the two of you, why couldn't there have been more people in the car?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was driving for Mr de Kock, not other people.  That was Mr de Kock's car, I was just his driver.

MR HUGO: Well let me put it - let me tell you why I'm asking you these questions.  Mr de Kock's version is that you weren't his driver and that Mr Steve Bosch was his driver at the time and you're talking an absolute lie when you're saying that you were the driver and you drove him down from Pretoria to Durban.  What do you say to that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He's lying.

MR HUGO: Now when you got to Durban, can you just tell us where did you sleep?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: At CR Swart Police Station.  That was next to the Dog Unit section.

MR HUGO: And how many other members of Vlakplaas were in Durban at the time, when you arrived?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: There was a group that we found there, it was quite a large number of them.

MR HUGO: How many, more-or-less?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know, I cannot remember.  I do not know how many people were there.

MR HUGO: Would you say it was the whole of the Vlakplaas contingent or not as many?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said it was a quite a number of people, I do not know how many were there.

MR HUGO: Well let me put it, or tell you why I'm asking this question.  Mr de Kock's version is that at the time three - two or three security policemen in Durban were killed by the so-called terrorists and - well, let me stop there for a minute.  Were you aware of that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not know that, Sir.

MR HUGO: Then let me just put it to you for completeness' sake, but I suppose you wouldn't be able to comment on that.  And that Durban Security Police were very upset about this and they then called Vlakplaas in to try and combat these killings and to try and ascertain who the people were that killed the policemen.  I suppose you didn't know about that.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know that.

MR HUGO: And Mr de Kock says that the whole of Vlakplaas, the whole contingent was deployed in Durban.  What do you say about the fact that all the members of Vlakplaas were down here in Durban?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not remember that as the case, Sir.

MR HUGO: But you would concede that it's possible.  If Mr de Kock says so, you wouldn't have an argument with that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I couldn't argue with him about that, but I do not know that, I did not see it that way.

MR HUGO: And Mr de Kock will testify and he will say that the mechanisms that were applied were to the extent that Vlakplaas was divided up in various groups under team leaders with various vehicles and they would then be allocated to different regions in Durban, by the Durban Security Police.  What is your recollection as far as that is concerned?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not remember anything concerning that.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr de Kock will testify that these groups were then subsequently deployed in these various areas and they were all instructed to look for terrorists.  Had you been instructed to do that?