Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-17

MR MHLABA: You also mentioned that your companion shot once to scare the deceased off, are you telling the Committee that your main aim was to get hold of the weapon which the deceased was in possession of as opposed to killing him?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We were intending to kill him because he was our enemy.

MR MHLABA: Why do you say he was your enemy, can you explain more?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: My uncle's child here in Welkom was taken by the police and he was beaten and as a result he was taken to the hospital.  We tried to report that case but we don't know what happened about that case.  That is when we realised that the policemen were also our enemies because my uncle's son was also a comrade and in many instances the police were always in the company of the IFP people, killing people.  That is when we realised that they are also our enemies.

MR MHLABA: While a member of the SDUs, was it at any stage mentioned that the police are legitimate targets of the SDUs and your political organisation?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Our commander of the SDU told us that the police and the soldiers were legitimate targets.

MR MHLABA: And was it ever mentioned or resolved in any of your meetings that the police and the soldiers being legitimate targets should be disarmed so that the arms can be used to protect the people by the SDUs?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: So is it your case, Mr Motlokoa, that in killing the deceased, Peacock Tsosane, you were furthering the interests of your political organisation and ensuring the smooth operation of the Self Defence Units?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Do you have anything to add in support of your application for amnesty?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question.

MR MHLABA: Other than what you have already told the Committee, do you have any other thing to add in support of your application?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I just want to ask for forgiveness from the families of the deceased because what I did happened during that time when we were fighting, it was war.

MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa, I want to take you through your application - and I refer the Committee to page 5 of the paginated bundle, in paragraph 11(b) of your application you are requested to answer, it says
"If so, state the particulars of such orders and approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of persons who gave such order or approval."
And you indicated in your form that a programme of action and again:
"Peter Mokaba, ANC Youth League leader."
Can you explain to the Committee what you meant by this?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: What I'm saying here is that the person who was training us told us that what we are doing was known to Peter Mokaba and also Chris Hani knew about our operations, that we have to attack the police and the soldiers.

MR MHLABA: So by this you were not implying that you got direct orders from Peter Mokaba to engage in this very transaction?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is not so.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chair, that concludes the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba.  Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR SESELE: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Motlokoa, after you shot dead the policeman, what became of the car which the policeman was driving?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We left the car at that spot.

UNKNOWN: With the woman companion locked in the boot of that car?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you not attack the woman?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, we did not.

UNKNOWN: Is it your evidence that the woman was never injured as a result of your action?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: She was never injured.

UNKNOWN: Then as you intended to take the firearm, did you in fact take the firearm from the police after you shot him dead?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, we took the firearm after shooting him.

UNKNOWN: Why actually did you kill this policeman when you had already received the firearm?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We killed him first and then took his firearm.

UNKNOWN: Why did you kill him?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: It was our instruction to kill and to disarm the police.

UNKNOWN: And you say by killing that policeman you were furthering the aims and objections of the African National Congress?  Is it your evidence that the ANC had a policy in 1993 to kill the policemen?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question.

UNKNOWN: You are saying, Mr Motlokoa, that by killing that policeman you were furthering the aims and objectives of the African National Congress, hence you say your action was politically motivated.  Now my question is, did the ANC in 1993 have a policy to kill the policemen?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: It was not the police of the ANC but there were other operation which we had to carry out, which included killing the police.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that, Motlokoa?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: What I mean is that is was not the policy to kill, it was just to cut the strength of apartheid.

UNKNOWN: Let me put this question the other way around.  Was the action of killing those policemen in line with the policy of the ANC, of killing that policeman?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct, it was in line with the policy of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Why do you say so?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Even before while we were trained by Justice he told us it was the only way to show the previous government that it was not prepared for the changes.

UNKNOWN: Now, was that message going to be delivered by killing the police?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That's correct, the apartheid government would realise that we are still fighting.

UNKNOWN: As I understand it the ANC suspended the armed struggle in 1990 if I'm not mistaken, I'm subject to correction.  Now this action of your was an armed action perpetrated by yourselves and the ANC at that time had already suspended the armed struggle, how do you explain your action in the circumstances?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question well.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Mapoma is putting to you is that by the 19th of May 1993, the ANC had suspended the armed struggle and now he's asking, taking that into account how do you explain your actions on that day, killing the policeman, taking into account the fact that the ANC had in fact suspended its armed struggle by that stage?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, it had suspended the armed struggle but we as the members of the SDU, we have our own operations that we were still carrying out.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that your SDU carried out its own operations in conflict with ANC policy, contrary to the ANC policy, despite the fact that you were an ANC Self Defence Unit?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, that is not so.  We got our instructions from our commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was your commander?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We only knew him by the name of Justice.

UNKNOWN: Where was Justice, I mean Commander Justice from?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He was from the place known as Tabakuseo.

UNKNOWN: How far is that place from your place?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: It can be about six kilometres from the place where I stayed.

UNKNOWN: And who was your local commander of the SDU?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He was the only commander in our place.  We only had one commander and that was him.

UNKNOWN: And he did not specifically instruct you to go and conduct that operation, is it not so?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He gave us that instruction.