Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman. I have got no questions. I just would like to state that the position of the objectors that I appear on is the same as that of Mr Pretorius. I am not going to repeat that to the witness.

MS MORAKA: No re-examination. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which of you is appearing for Neo Potsane?

MR CURRIN: I am appearing for Neo Potsane, applicant number 9.

CHAIRPERSON: His name has been mentioned and some evidence has been given referring to him. Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR CURRIN: No I don't have any questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

CHAIRPERSON: No questions. Thank you.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Molefe if you do not understand my questions ... certain excerpts of your evidence at the inquest were read to you suggesting amongst other things that you hated those Zulus who wear a red band on their foreheads. Do you recall that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I do recall that.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And the evidence that was read to you suggested that if you had been in a position to shoot at them you would have mowed it down - to use the word that was used there.

MODISE MOLEFE: Repeat the question?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Your evidence suggested that if you had, had an opportunity, that is on the day of the shooting to shoot at those Zulus with the red band you would have mowed them down.

MODISE MOLEFE: This is what I have said.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Your evidence was further that there was those Zulus amongst the marchers.

MODISE MOLEFE: There were some of those Zulus within the marchers. Yes they were there.

JUDGE NGCOBO: You have now indicated that your position has since changed?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes Your Honour.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Would you indicate to us what position has changed?

MODISE MOLEFE: The position of the people who tied the red cloths on their foreheads firstly we can talk with them there in Central Western Jabago without any red bands. People can enter the hostels and they can come to the location. And that is a good thing. It is a peaceful process that is taking place. Two weeks back I was with Eddie Khumalo with one of the marchers who had the red band on his forehead and now we had to greet one another: "Kunjani, fine Kunjani sikhona." You know it is a mood that the country is taking. It is a mood that even on the top political leadership things are coming in a very, very progressive way and whereby we say in a political context IFP, ANC, Nationalist Party let bygones be bygones in that context Sir. There is no one who keep those grudges any more but gradually they have been withering away. In that context.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is it your position now that you would not have mowed down those Zulus with the red bands on the day in question if you had, had an opportunity to do so?

MODISE MOLEFE: I don't get the question very clearly.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What I want to clarify is this. What was suggested to you in cross-examination was that you shot at the marchers because you hated the Zulus with the red armband. This was based on your evidence we are told from the inquest in which you are said to have testified that you hate the Zulus with red armband and that they were among the marchers. And that if you had, had the opportunity you would have mowed them down. Do you understand that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes Your Honour.

JUDGE NGCOBO: ...(inaudible) still your position today. And your answer was; "It is no longer my position." So what I want to understand from you what is the position that you have changed?

MODISE MOLEFE: Mr Chairman we must be very frank and honest. We do not see the in-fight amongst the hostel dwellers with the location people today. That is why. Too we do not see the wit doeks in Cape Town, the Nobongwanas whatever killing innocent people. And we see people amalgamating as people should be without identifying yourself with a certain symbol. It is gradually moving you know in a very peaceful gradual way. And it is taking a shape where we can say today and say let bygones be bygones, I am sorry whoever.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes I understand that. And the other aspect is this. You described to us the position in which you were after the shots were fired. Namely that you went down to the lower level of the parapet. I think you described it as being the indent. And that when you fired the shot you were in that position. It was suggested to you that if you were in that position for you to have shot in the direction of the pharmacy you would have had to stand up and lean over the balcony. More importantly what was suggested to you was that if you were in that position which you described to us it would have been impossible for the fire from your AK47 to have landed at the pharmacy. What do you say to that?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is possible.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Molefe I just have one question with regard to the suggestion that you hate Zulus particularly those who wear red bands around their heads. And just to find out if I have understood your evidence properly. Of the many groups that morning that went past Shell House did any of the marchers who formed part of the many groups that went past Shell House have red bands around their head?

MODISE MOLEFE: There were a lot of them. In the morning, in the afternoon and whatever.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With regard to the main group that gave rise to the incident in respect of which amnesty is being sought, were they also wearing the red band around their head?

MODISE MOLEFE: I don't understand your question very clear.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The marchers that you shot at, at corner King George and de Villiers were they wearing red bands around their head?

MODISE MOLEFE: Some of them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If none of them had any bands around their heads and you still perceived the marchers to be firing at the direction of Shell House would you have taken the action that you took that day?

MODISE MOLEFE: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you understand my question? If none of them had red bands around their heads, if none of the marchers that you directed your action against, if none of them had any red bands around their heads would you have taken any defensive action?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I would if they are still firing at us let alone the red whatever. That is a threat in terms of arms, in terms of entering into our building and killing our leadership. I will be, (...indistinct) I will protect.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Molefe.

MR LAX: Just one small issue. Just to pick up where Judge Ngcobo left off. That was you indicated that you heard the others shooting around you or near you. I am assuming they were next to you or in your vicinity, the other guards who were up on the parapet with you. Do you recall that? Were they firing at the crowd or were they firing in the air? Are you able to say?

MODISE MOLEFE: Some of them did fire on the crowd.

MR LAX: And in order to do that they would have had to stand up, lean over the parapet and point downwards to do that.

MODISE MOLEFE: Not necessarily they have moved to another position.

MR LAX: Well the evidence so far is that the parapet continues along. How would they have shot through the parapet, are there gaps in the parapet? Are there gaps in the portion that you would normally have hidden behind?

MODISE MOLEFE: I think they were on the. Your Honour with due respect they will answer for themselves because I was in the indent. As to whether they were, no they had (...indistinct) situation. They could see them you know. They having themselves but do you understand as you see the parapet there you know (...indistinct) whatever. As to how did they do it they will answer for themselves.