Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I never worked with the Security Branch so they will not tell us about their informers.  I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: So what on earth was the meeting about?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I also do not understand the question.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, perhaps we could help.  What did Mr Gosi have to explain to the meeting, why was he called to the meeting and what had he to explain to the meeting?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He was just asked to comment about his involvement with the Security Police.

MR VISSER: What was that involvement alleged to have been?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: His cooperation with the Security Branch.

MR VISSER: What was that cooperation alleged to have been?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: To sell people.

MR VISSER: To give information about people?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was that so difficult?  Isn't it also true that Mr Ngo while he was still at school, was also an informer of the police?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you knew that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I knew that when he was attacked.

MR VISSER: By White Mohapi and others?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I do not know who attacked him, because they were at a different school.

MR VISSER: Did you never hear that Mr White Mohapi was charged on attempted murder of Mr Ngo?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I heard about that.

MR VISSER: All right, we are busy with the incident at Fountains building.  Mamome says that he never did anything to you that day and I will tell you why not, in a moment.  You say he suffocated you?

CHAIRPERSON: This is the 19 incident?

MR VISSER: This is the Bloemfontein 19 incident, where you are at Fountains building and you say you were suffocated by Motsamai and Mr Mamome.  Now, he says and this might be another surprise to you, that among the group of 19 who were arrested by the South African Defence Force, there were two of his informers.
	Did you know that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I say I was not working with the Security Branch, I would not know the informers.

MR VISSER: Okay.  So you can't deny that.  And he says that he was anxious to go and see to his informers because obviously the other police wouldn't know that they were informers.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Those 19 people who was with me, if he says there were informers in that group, I would say to him he is lying, Mamome is lying.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, you see and Mr Makhubalo, I am not going to give you the names, so we will just have to leave it at that.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: May I say something?

MR VISSER: Please do.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: This is the place where we should tell the truth.  I think it is important that this people should know those things if it is true that there were informers among us.  I don't see any problem why their names cannot be identified.

MR VISSER: Mr Mamome then says that he wasn't there for any other purpose, certainly not for the purpose of assaulting you and definitely not for the reasons which you advance as to why you were tortured.
	So, let me break this up.  Mr Mamome says he never had anything to do with you on that day, first of all.  On the first day that you were brought to Fountains building.  You deny that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I say Mamome assaulted me.  If he says he didn't do that, we will not force him to tell the truth.  But I think that one day his conscience will make it possible  that he would look to be like Motsamai and tell the truth.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, let's get on with the evidence, and please would you stop giving the impression of being sanctimonious.  We don't need a sermon or a lecture from you please, thank you.
	You showed the Committee some marks on your arms, did you not?  You are not going to reply to the question are you?  All right, I am just going to place on record that on the outer right lower arm, you've got two marks.  The longest of which is about two centimetres, Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon.  There seems to be a problem here.  I don't know if you heard the question because sometimes it happens that the interpretation doesn't come through to me, he might be encountering the same problem.

MR VISSER: I accept that Mr Chairman, I am still just placing something on record.  On the left outer arm there is a round mark of about, I would guess, of about 5 milimeters in diameter.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly describe both marks, because I didn't write it down, Mr Visser, please.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, when we looked at the right outer arm, lower arm, just above the wrist, there appear to be two parallel marks.  I didn't measure them but I would suggest with respect the longest one is approximately two centimetres, about half an inch.
	The shorter one is a bit shorter, it is not really important to say how long that was.  On the left arm, Mr Chairman, again above the wrist, there appear to be a round mark, which is a very small mark.  He can show you again Mr Chairman, and you could of course differ with me and you will make a different entry if you wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you come here please.  I think your measurement may be a little bit short.  It may be a little bit longer than half an inch.  Two and a half centimetres.

MR VISSER: Oh, I am out with half a centimetre.

CHAIRPERSON: On the left arm, I would suggest it is not a circle, it is a very small straight line, about 5 millimeters I would say.

MR VISSER: I didn't see the straight line, I just saw a little round mark, but I take it.

CHAIRPERSON: It is very difficult, it is a very small mark there.

MR VISSER: That is the only point about the whole affair Mr Chairman, nothing else turns on that.
	Just one more thing, I am sorry, I will just have to wait for you to get back to your chair.  Are you ready Mr Makhubalo?  Let's try to finish before eleven o'clock please.  On the left, on your left wrist, there is a protrusion or a bulge, is that correct?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is so sir.

MR VISSER: Is that the result of an old injury which you sustained?  Or is that just a normal thing with which you were born?

INTERPRETER: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, the spoken language is not known to the interpreter.  I am not able to interpret Xhosa.  I will call my colleague now. Mr Chairman, we will continue in Sotho, he is indeed.

ADV DE JAGER: He says he will continue in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it should be recorded for the sake of the interpreters, that the witness had I gather, been speaking Sotho and now switched to Xhosa.  Is that so Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: That is so Mr Chairman, yesterday it also happened, but I will leave the matter there.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I think, with respect when he started, he started in Sotho and at some stage during his evidence, he said now I wish to speak in Xhosa and he from yesterday until now, he has been speaking in Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better put the question again, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Makhubalo, when you showed your arms to me, I noticed a protrusion or a bulge just above your wrist.  I am asking you whether that is an old injury or whether that is the way you were born?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said to you I was not born like that.  What happened here is because of the handcuffs from the Security Police.

MR VISSER: You do understand I am not talking about the marks, I am talking about the round bony part of your, the one that you are touching right now, yes, that.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was born with it.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Mr Tsoametsi will deny that he assaulted you on any occasion, on any day during that occasion when the 19 of you were brought and so will Mr Erasmus and Mr Miningwa and Mr Kopi.  All of whom you have implicated without explaining precisely what you say they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the second one?

MR VISSER: Well, we obviously have Mamome.  Then we have Erasmus, Miningwa, Kopi.  I think those are the ones that I mentioned Mr Chairman.