Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

CHAIRPERSON: But she knew the driver had just climbed out of the truck, she may not have seen him as she was taken out, but she knew he was there.

ZAMA THUTHA: I am talking about her view.  I don't know what she thought.

ADV SANDI: But Mr Thutha ...

CHAIRPERSON: There is evidence before us, the witness will be called later, that she was stabbed a number of times.  Was this done while she was being forced to walk along?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, I don't know about the stabbing.  I did not see her being stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you know nothing about it?

ZAMA THUTHA: I think that happened after we left, we left Thandekulo behind.

MR LAX: Behind where, sorry, just clarify this for us?  At what stage are you saying you left Thandekulo behind?

ZAMA THUTHA: At the place where he had parked his car before we got there.

MR LAX: So you drove off and you left him behind you, after the shooting?

ZAMA THUTHA: Correct.

MR LAX: And that is when he must have stabbed her as far as you are aware?

ZAMA THUTHA: I can't say I know, but I hear from you that the girl was stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: But after she was stabbed, Thandekulo came up to you, after she was shot, he came up to you at the truck, asked you what gun you had, how much ammunition you had and gave you the gun he had used?
	This was a long way away from where the body was, wasn't it?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.  Where the body was, it was behind a bush, a shrub.  You could not see the body from the road where we were standing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thutha, you have heard your co-applicant that it was suggested that Mr Meyers was a member of the AWB, did you know about that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I saw the weapon but I heard when Thandekulo was talking to my co-accused, but I was not concentrating on what they were saying.
	But I just heard them saying that this white man is needed, there is information that they needed.  They were not talking to me, they were speaking to each other.  But I saw the weapon, it had a double "Z", it had Hitler's emblem on it.

MR LAX: It had a double "Z" emblem on it?

ZAMA THUTHA: Hitler's emblem, the one that looks like a double "Z".  Yes, here it is on this paper.

MR LAX: The witness has referred to Annexure J, just for the record and he identifies that as the emblem, it is the AWB emblem.

UNKNOWN: Could I just ask.   You have heard the two talking to each other about this, where was this?  They weren't talking to you, you say, but where was this?

ZAMA THUTHA: When we were already at the turn off towards the place where this white man had parked his truck, going towards Sibekhi.
	This is when I heard them talking. They were not talking to me, they were speaking to each other.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally, can you tell now, you told the Committee about what you were told to do and what happened, would you on your own if you were in the position of Thandekulo as a Commander, would you have given instruction that Mike Meyers be kidnapped or be killed or any, or Donnie Meyers be killed or kidnapped.
	Would you have, take yourself and put yourself in the shoes of Thandekulo, if you were in that position, would you have given that order yourself?

ZAMA THUTHA: You must remember something, APLA and the Boer, because the Boer is the oppressor, we make sure that we kill the Boer when we have gotten what we want from them.
	I also would have done as Thandekulo had done.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

MR LAX: Is there anything else that you should have told us about, that you thought about, that you might have forgotten before we start questioning you?
	Anything else that you want to say to us, that you might have forgotten that you think you should draw to our attention?

ZAMA THUTHA: I can't say there is or not.  If I have forgotten something and you remember later, reminded or triggered by certain questions, I can't really say at this point.
	I will deal with it, if it does come up later when you are asking me questions perhaps.  I will respond accordingly.

MR LAX: Sorry, there is nothing affecting your memory though, your head hasn't got problems, has it?  You don't seem to have any memory loss or any problem like that?  I just want to make clear before we start on this?

ZAMA THUTHA: My injuries on the head are not as severe as my co-accused.

MR BOTMA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thutha, first of all you can recall that you gave evidence during the trial?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is so.

MR BOTMA: The evidence that you gave during the trial, was that the truth or not?

ZAMA THUTHA: Some things were true, some things were false and some things we did not divulge because of certain conditions.

MR BOTMA: So you gave evidence during the trial under oath, which you knew were false at that point in time?

ZAMA THUTHA: Are you asking me or are you stating?

MR BOTMA: I am asking you.

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, but my giving evidence in court, the court where Mr Botma was prosecuting, I did not trust.  Even this one, I do not trust, because, especially because of the way Mr Botma looked at me the first time when he saw me.
	I don't even know if this sitting will help because Botma has come with a wrong attitude.

MR BOTMA: Let's just get back to the facts of this case Mr Thutha, are you saying that during that trial you deliberately gave evidence under oath, which you knew were false?

ZAMA THUTHA: I said to you ...

MR BOTMA: What is your answer?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please repeat your question Mr Botma.

MR BOTMA: Is that your answer you said to me, is that all you want to say about that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please Mr Botma, repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: Let's go back.  Are you saying that during the trial, you deliberately gave evidence under oath, which you knew were false?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I did.

MR BOTMA: Were you the one giving instructions to your counsel about what happened during the incident?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: During the trial, you gave instructions to your counsel that the vehicle of Thandekulo was parked about 25 metres from the spot where Mike Meyers' truck was parked.  Were you the one giving that instructions?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, we did say.  However, as I said it, I was just estimating because they were talking about metres any way, but when we went there, you could also see that the distance was over 200 metres.
	But you disputed anything that I said, saying that I was laying, that we were racist.  It was difficult to carry on with you and work with you.  Botma, I cannot work with you.

MR BOTMA: Let's carry on.  During the trial, you testified that you stopped at the scene or some distance away from the scene, and that Thandekulo was the one that walked towards the truck and you followed them, do you agree with that submission from me?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did say that to you.  These are the things that I told falsely under oath.  They are not so, I am telling you now.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand that last statement.

ZAMA THUTHA: I am saying I told Botma about this, that some of the things were false that I had said, some were true.
	Now, what I am not revealing now, will come out later, but as he is asking now ...

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that Thandekulo was the one who shot Mike Meyers and when you arrived there, he was already shot, Donnie was already shot, and then you got into the truck.  Was that also false?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is exactly why.  Sorry could you please repeat the question sir.

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that Thandekulo was the one that shot Mike Meyers and when you go to the truck, you found that Donnie Meyers had also already been shot at and then you got into the truck.  Is that also a false version?