Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is so.  In other words I say once again, specifically like a business plan, once a business plan has been made and the cash flows then one has X amount at the end and that is how it was done.  It comes from the general budget that you referred to, Chairperson and it comes from the specific person's budget for projects that he had applied a year back and that has been changed through the year and amended and eventually he says that for this project I will need R40 000 and that comes from the advance.  For example, if Slang van Zyl comes to Cape Town and he stays in the Cape Sun Hotel, then he budgets for four or five days and he budgets for whatever the negotiations might cost him, or whether he had to pay the person two thousand or three thousand rand and that is his budget which is part of a plan that I say:  "Very well, it is accepted" or "There is too much here, you have to do with less money."

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to read to you the first sentence of your application in paragraph 2.2 on page 192.

CHAIRPERSON: Volume A of the bundle A.  So you want to read paragraph 1.1, is it?

GEORGE BIZOS: 2.2.

CHAIRPERSON: 2.2, page 192, paragraph 2.2.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos if you could go back to the beginning with the light on.
MR BIZOS
"These actions were actions for which I had instructions from the top and were authorised according to procedures and which instructions were delegated to the bottom."

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think so, Chairperson.  I would not have said it, I would not have signed it, if I did not think it was so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Okay, so you're satisfied that that is the truth?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And when you speak "van bo", who are you referring to?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I only had one channel and that was through the Chairperson of the structure.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who is that, who was that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was Gen Webb, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is he sitting behind you there?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Now I'm going to read to you a passage of his evidence, Gen Webb's evidence in the Webster inquest at pages 1674, line 14, to page 1675, line 13.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, could I ask you at this stage when you have completed that, if at some time an arrangement could be made for a copy to be distributed to all the representatives?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - microphone not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: Sorry, what was the second reference?

GEORGE BIZOS: Page 16675 line 13.  The question is to Gen Webb
"Did you ever speak to Christo Britz with regard to these two incidents where persons had to be eliminated, Omar and Evans?
		No, My Lord.
		Was it, is it in other words with regard to the investigation of Gen Badenhorst and Brig Engelbrecht?
		I was called in one night to attend the investigation.
		Can you tell the Court what had happened there?
		Gen Badenhorst called me in and there it came to light that for example Dullah Omar and Evans, according to his information, at that stage had to be eliminated.  That is what came to light there."
It's not that I don't know the name, it's spelled Dullah, Mr Chairman, I don't want to be misunderstood by the relatives that I can't pronounce the name properly.
"Yes, who were all present at the meeting?
		It was Gen Badenhorst, Brig Engelbrecht, of the SAP, Verster was there and I think Christo Britz was there and myself.  I cannot recall whether other persons were there.
		And did you discuss the matter there?
		It was not actually a discussion, it was a feedback from Gen Badenhorst to me.
		What was Col Verster's reaction to these allegations?
		That evening I asked him on whose level were Omar and Evans authorised and he said at his level, therefore in effect he admitted that he had given the instruction that Omar and Evans had to be killed.
		And ...(indistinct) there.  Yes, did you then ask him but why did he not notify you in this matter?  Why did he, without notifying you, could give such an instruction?
		My question was only at which level it was authorised."
Did you understand that evidence, Mr Verster?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I understood it, yes Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: If the evidence of Gen Webb was correct before his Lordship Mr Justice Stegmann, it's in direct conflict with your evidence that you had authority for these two killings.  Would you agree with that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I accept that according to the evidence it is in conflict.  Whether it is correct, is another matter. Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you are sure that your version is correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I want to test this, how sure you are.  General Webb has not applied for amnesty for these two acts.  Would you be prepared to stand up in a case against him and say he authorised it, if he hasn't got amnesty, he can't get it because he hasn't applied.  Are you prepared to stand up in a witness box and say that?  Are you sure of that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, over a period of 11 or 12 years we have a dispute with regard to specifically that point.  In my opinion, other evidence could be led.  You may ask them yourself where I said that it has to be discussed, or it was discussed with the Chairperson.  I had a structure within which I never did anything without discussing it with the Chairperson and if I say that over a period of 11 years, I had led evidence several times where I said that I authorised it, meaning that I signed it, meaning that I may have made a telephone call, maybe I handled it on my level and on that basis I functioned over all the years and it is generally known.  Everyone who applies for amnesty there and even in some of the other instances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you finished?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: So what I wish to say Chairperson is that according to a procedure within which we started from a previous year and submitted plans and proposed plans, there may have been a mistake or a misunderstanding or an incorrect comprehension where I know in certain instances amnesty was applied for, that the General had applied for, I do not know what he applied for, I do not know what the circumstances were, but it was just not possible with the role and function because I was not an information person who worked and then by accident had someone killed.  I functioned with a structure where we acted offensively and had to disrupt the enemy and within that there were quarterly proposals from every member and what he busied himself with.  With regard to this specific incident and at which stage Gen Webb knew or did not know, that I do not know and I cannot answer to that right now.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think what Mr Bizos - the thrust of his question is, you're under oath now and he's saying in a trial, if the matter were before a court, you under oath would give the same evidence that Gen Webb authorised both those named operations?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could repeat that, the button was not ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Were you at the meeting that Gen Webb describes on these two pages?