Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed Mrs Skhosana.  I have just a few questions which will help us to complete the picture.  Before I do that though, I am sorry, I forgot to ask about the person who is sitting next to you.  Could you just please tell us who that is.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Emmah Skhosana, my daughter.

DR BORAINE: Emmah, I just want to say a word of welcome to you too and I am grateful to you for being in support of your mother today.  Mrs Skhosana, the young people who stayed in your home, there were nine of them.  They were ...

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: ... members of the ANC Youth League?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: That is right.  So they were politically active?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: One of them was Ezekiel Skhosana, that was your younger brother?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: How old was he when he ...

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: He was the last born at home.

DR BORAINE: Yes, I see.  So old was he when he died?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: He was born in 1942, but I, yes 1962.  I cannot remember how old he was in 19..

DR BORAINE: 24 Years old and the other young people, were
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they all more or less the same age?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: No, no I mean they were of different ages.  I think those were of the same age with him, the Mabena boy. There was someone who was the eldest.  I do not know where he was coming from, but the other ones were of his age, but I do not know their years, but I think they were of his age.

DR BORAINE: Alright, so they were all young people.  Now, I want you to try ...

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: ... and think back.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: There is another one who was still very young.  I think he was 16 years old.  He was still very young the other one.

DR BORAINE: Okay, thank you.  I want you to think back very carefully now, I know it is ten years ago, you told us that there was a man who was assisting them with money and you did not trust that man.  Can you tell us a little bit more about him?  What age was he, what did he look like, what were his clothes and so on?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: This person, I have never the seen person who was ???????.  I even told them that this person looked like a policeman.  Then they said he was going to assist them with money, but he never helped them.  I think of his age he was of the type who was inside the interpreter.  I think she is referring to the interpreter.

DR BORAINE: No offence mam.  Thank you.  Did you know his name?  Did they ever tell you what his name was?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: No, they spoke about the name, but I forgot the name.

DR BORAINE: Have you ever seen him again?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Definitely no, definitely no since they died.
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DR BORAINE: So he just disappeared afterwards.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes, but my sister's son, she said she saw this person in Eersterus.  He was wearing a police uniform.  He is a policeman.

DR BORAINE: She actually identified the same man who was with them later on wearing a police uniform.  Is that what you are saying to us?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes, she said she saw the same person because he even gave her money in the house the other day.  She said she saw him in the street.  He was wearing a police uniform together in the company of other policemen.

DR BORAINE: Would we be able to talk with your sister or her son and to get the name do you think?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Excuse me.

DR BORAINE: Let me repeat the question.  We have investigators who are, we have investigators who are assisting the Commission.  If we were able to contact your sister or her son who saw this man in the police uniform, do you think that they would be able to point him out to us or to give us a name?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: I do not know if she can be able to point him.  She was still very young by then, but she told the following year after their death that she saw him.  I do not know if she be able to point him now.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Now, when the killing took place it was round about midnight.  You saw a car outside, but you were not able to see the number, but you said you saw men wearing camouflage uniforms.  Just tell us a little bit more.  What did you actually see when the gunfire started or you heard the car stop outside your house?
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JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: I saw the car, I saw the lights, I saw a piece of a car.  It is a big house the other side and then this side is a garage.  So there is a passage, so this is the passage which we use when we go to the rooms ... but I saw them, but I cannot tell you what kind of a car was that.

DR BORAINE: But you can and have said that they were wearing some kind of uniform.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes, they were wearing police uniforms.  The three of them were shooting because in the kitchen, I mean, there was light in the kitchen and the room in which they were shooting at.  The gun was shooting continuously, you see, there was no time to, there were three who were shooting.  They were wearing balaclavas.  I could not recognise whether they were white men or black men.  When they said "pasop" I could not differentiate whether it is a white man or a black man who is saying that because if the kids did not tell me that there were people who were coming to fetch them maybe I could have been asleep, but I saw them why, because I was worried.  I am happy because their parents are here and I will be able to live freely because I did not kill their children.

DR BORAINE: Yes.  Thank you.  Can you tell me, just one last question about that.  How many men did you actually see who came with guns?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: One was standing at the garage door who was knocking at their room who was wearing a white t-shirt and the other three, the other one was standing at the door.  The others were coming and then I was trying to look to warn the others not to come.  I was looking at him through the window.  He was just in front of me.  So he was stopping the other ones, warning the other ones not to come and the other PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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one was standing on the garage.  I think there were four.

DR BORAINE: Thank you and the man who was wearing a white t-shirt, obviously, was not wearing a uniform?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: No, I just only saw a t-shirt.  I did not see the uniform because they were outside, but inside the house I saw three because he stayed outside the other one with the t-shirt.

DR BORAINE: Okay and you could not see whether he was white or black, the man with the t-shirt?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Not, the one with the t-shirt was a black person.  I saw him because he was not wearing a balaclava. Although it was dark I was able to see, but the others who were shooting I could not see them.  I could not recognise them because the other one was standing on the garage door.  When the other two were coming the other one was looking at the door in the room and he was warning them not to come.  He was, I thought they were police who were coming to arrest them.  I never thought they were coming to kill them.  I thought they were coming to arrest them because they were ANC.  It was the apartheid time, the ANC was banned, it was restricted.

DR BORAINE: Sure.  You picked up some of the cartridges and you gave them to the police or they took them from you?