Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was at M.C. Porter Drive, they were the passengers going to work in a taxi.

MR MOHLABA: How did you come to learn about this shooting and how soon after the shooting did you get the information about this shooting?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Can you repeat your question please?

CHAIRPERSON: How did you learn about the people who had shot at the taxi?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was when we went out of the hostel, there was a taxi outside parking, and the place was full of people, we also went to enquire as to what happened and we found people shot.  That is when I first knew of this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't your earlier evidence that you had actually seen people running towards the hostel whilst you were also in the hostel yourself?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not your earlier evidence that you then made enquiries from people who were next to the scene of the shooting and these people advised you that the shooting had been done by the people who had run towards the hostel and then you then deduced that it must be the people that you had seen running towards the hostel whilst you were there, and which people were armed at the time of you seeing them running towards the hostel?  Is that still your evidence?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just enquire, how much time did you have to observe the people who were running towards the hostel?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We did not have time, if I may give a distance at the door, right at the back, it was where they were coming and we were just here, next to the camera.  We saw them as they were approaching.
	What made us pay attention to them is the way they were carrying their firearms.  That actually attracted our eyes and we concentrated on them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you.  Where did you go next, did you go to the scene where the actual shooting took place, that is where people were shot at and what did you find there if you ever went there?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: There was a taxi parked there, people were shot, six of them were dead and the others were injured.

MR MOHLABA: Did you establish from the scene there how these people were shot and who has shot them?  Did you try and do any enquiries?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have covered that part of the evidence Mr Mohlaba.  It is his earlier evidence that they described the people who had done the shooting and from that, he was able to deduce that it must be the same people that he had seen running towards the hostel.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  So you, having deduced that the deceased as you then identified him, was one of the people who ran into the hostel, holding a firearm and having concluded that he is the person who has taken part in the killing of the six people as you have mentioned here, how did you regard him?
	Did you regard him as the enemy of the community or what was your interpretation of the whole event?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I regarded him as the enemy of the community.

MR MOHLABA: You were at that time a member of the SDU which was established to protect the community from such attacks, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: So, is it your case that the killing of the deceased, Joseph Mkhabela, was in the interest of the community which you were protecting as a member of the SDU?

MR LAX: You know Mr Mohlaba, you realise that this evidence that you are eliciting from this applicant in the light of the sort of leading questions that you are asking, have no probative value whatsoever.  If you are going to lead him in this fashion, you are going to leave us with no valuable evidence upon which to rely.
	Please, I have asked you before, try not to put the words in his mouth, but try to ask the question in such a way that the evidence we glean from what he says, is valuable to us.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you.  Mr Selahle, what did you seek to achieve, what goal did you achieve in killing, in planning the death of Mkhabela and his subsequent death?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already responded to that question Mr Mohlaba, I will not allow that.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Mr Selahle, in conclusion, lastly, do you have anything to mention to the Commission in support of your application?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I want to say to the Committee people were being killed every day and this disturbed me quite a lot.
	I had this love for our people and I deemed it necessary to work together with the SDU to protect the community so that we can protect them against those people who were using force against them.
	I am sorry for what I did, I am asking amnesty for what I did.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, that will conclude the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mohlaba.  Mr Selahle, before we lose the sense of your evidence, may I just put certain questions to you in order to get clarity on what you have testified.
	Were there frequent shootings of passengers in the taxi's in your township?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: This is, such incidents happened once after a long time.  It did not frequent the township.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean you were therefore mistaken, in your concluding evidence you say you did what you did because there were such shootings which were occurring quite frequently as it were?  Were you mistaken when you said that or you don't understand my question?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I do understand your question, yes, people were being killed but most of the attacks, people would be shot at when they are at the night vigils, when they are at the parks, when they are in taverns.
	The shooting of a taxi was not a usual thing to see.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if that is so, what made you think that the people who had shot the taxi, were the enemies of the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Can you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me tell you what you said first, and then put my question thereafter.  You have testified that the reason why you shot at Mr Mkhabela was because you regarded the people who had shot at the taxi on the 25th of January, as being the enemy or enemies of your community.
	My question which follows from that is why did you think that the people who had shot at the taxi on the 25th of January, were the enemies of the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was clear from what they did on the 25th, that they were the enemy.
	Had we left them, people were still going to die.  They were a threat to the community.

CHAIRPERSON: How were they a threat to the community, just from one single incident of a taxi shooting, you then deduced that they must be enemies?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We did not know when first did they start shooting at the people.  We did not trust them at all because of the deaths within the community.
	We saw it necessary not to leave them alone because the community would not be safe at all.  We just realised that leaving them alone, would not solve the problem.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you put the shooting to be associated with the conflict that had engulfed your township during that time, that we are all aware did occur?  Do you get the ambit of my question?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Maybe if you rephrase the question, I would understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: There was conflict in your township?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of which there was a lot of violence?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: People were being killed?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the killing emanated from that conflict?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It was as a result of that that SDU's were formed?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But the killing was seen to be coming from two groups.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: From the community, the residents in the township?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.