Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MZWANDILE GUSHU: My commander is Javu Sithole, nobody else gave me orders except for Javu Sithole, the other instructions I got from commanders of the self-defence unit that I had trained from township to township.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm not pursuing this.  Mr Mndebele testified that you were in fact ...(intervention).

MR BLACK: Sorry, Mr Chairman, may I just clear up that last answer, who was the commander, you said Javu Sithole?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I object, I'm ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis are you able to question that, Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Well I can, I had it differently, but I can re-examine, I will thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, you said you received your instructions from Javu Sithole and who else?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The people that I had trained, commanders of the self defence unit.

MR HATTINGH: And from no-one else?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct, where Ermelo, Piet Retief, I had ways to speak to him, but sometimes he would be out of South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: The instruction to kill Jwi Zwane, who gave you that instruction?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Javu Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: And Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I had an instruction that was pretty open, it was my job that, as the commander had given me instructions, I had to make sure that there were no Black Cat members that were giving problems to the ANC in Secunda, Piet Retief and Ermelo, it was all part of the same thing.

MR HATTINGH: Just to confirm this, you never got an instruction specifically to kill or eliminate Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did.

MR HATTINGH: Well then I misunderstood your evidence.   Who gave you the instruction, the specific instruction to kill Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I've said, Mr Chair, my instruction was pretty open, I had to fight against people who were fighting against the ANC, I could not, I did not see any reason for me to be given an instruction twice, I was following the same instruction.

MR HATTINGH: How did you then kill Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He was a leader of the Black Cat and he was killing ANC people, I had to kill him, because the instruction was such that I should sort things out in Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: The decision to kill Ngwenya, was that your own?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was not my own decision, Chair.   Under the instruction that I was given, that was open, I had to make sure that the African National Congress were able to organise themselves in these particular areas.   As the instruction was pretty open, I did not see any reason to go back to the commander that as I had done this, what should I do next?

CHAIRPERSON: On several occasions.   All I'm asking you, who took the decision that Ngwenya, as a person, should be killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Javu Mkhwanazi, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say Chris must be killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I had to fight against the Black Cats, Chair, Chris was the leader of the Black Cat, how could I leave him out, because the instruction was to sort out the chaos in Ermelo against the Black Cat people.   If Chris was not killed, it was clear that the Black Cats would continue with whatever they were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: So you, in pursuance of the order, the broad mandate, you took the decision that Chris should be eliminated, not so?    There's nothing wrong with it, I'm just trying to establish if that is the position.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I could say so, Chair, this is how I perceived the matter, specifically what was going on in Ermelo and under the command that I had been given, it was all under the same order, I did not do it just because I chose to.   If I was just doing it, my commanders would not have agreed with what I was doing even from the beginning.

MR HATTINGH: The order that you are referring to, was that a single order that you received right at the outset, or did you receive several orders on different occasions?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I got one instruction, this is the instruction that I was acting under, under the circumstances that we were living under.

MR HATTINGH: And did you also kill Jwi Zwane in terms of that one and only instruction?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: Who gave you that single instruction?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I'm going to repeat this answer, Javu Mkhwanazi gave me the one and only instruction.

MR HATTINGH: But a few minutes ago you said you received instructions from a Javu Sithole, if my memory serves me right?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There is no such.

MR HATTINGH: You did mention the name Sithole, was it a mistake?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I'm sure he heard Mr Black talking about Sithole, all along I've been talking about Mkhwanazi, not Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Take my word for it, the word Sithole came out of your mouth, now, about five minutes ago.   Was that a mistake or not?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It must have been a mistake.   I don't remember saying so though.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever get any instructions at all from Javu, instructions to do anything?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Everything I did, I was doing under Javu Mkhwanazi's instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: You always met with Javu Mkhwanazi and discussed issues about this situation you've been talking about, not so?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, sir.

ADV SANDI: I think, Mr Gushu, you need to, want to listen very carefully to questions.   The chairman has advised you on quite a number of occasions to listen to questions carefully and only answer what is required of you and not to give long explanations before answering questions.   Simply answer the questions.

MR HATTINGH: You received a single open or pretty open, as you stated it, instruction from Mr Javu Mkhwanazi.   When did you receive this instruction?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: After I had been trained in Nelspruit.

MR HATTINGH: In your statement, one cannot really deduct what the date thereof was or the year, in paragraph 18 on page 30, you made mention of Dex was buried in 1989?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is about Cape Town.

MR HATTINGH: How long after he was killed, did you come to Ermelo, or Secunda for that matter?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: After Dex's funeral, I was arrested in Transkei and I was released on the 26th of June 1989.   After I was released from prison, I went home, I found my mother sick, I left for Port Elizabeth.   When I came back from Port Elizabeth in 1990, I met with Zwendulene, he is the one who was working at (Indistinct), he's the one that we left home with.   We went to the Transvaal because I wanted to be able to skip the country to get training, proper training outside.

MR HATTINGH: Would that have been early 1990?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, correct.

MR HATTINGH: How soon after your arrival in the Secunda/ Ermelo area did you meet with Mr Mabena and came in contact with Mr Javu Mkhwanazi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: When I arrived here, I didn't spend much time at (Indistinct), because even there I was residing there unlawfully at the hostel, but I realised that if I stayed there at the hostel, I'd be arrested.   I decided to leave, so that to get what I wanted I must go and look for the UDF offices or Cosatu offices so that I can meet with people who would help me with what I wanted.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, I don't want to waste time and I'm really not trying to catch you out on anything, all I want to know is, how soon after your arrival in this area did you meet with the two people, the two mentioned people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I won't be able to say, because at that time I was not actually thinking that one day I'll be arrested so that I can know how soon was it that I met with these two people, therefore it will be difficult for me to speculate about time.

MR HATTINGH: Can you give an indication whether it was still in 1990 when you met with them, later that year, you came to Secunda area early 1990?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, it was 1990.