Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At that time I was already in prison, I can't answer you to that question, you are very vague.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, as I said, if the applicant in the criminal proceedings would have chosen to simply stick to his statement which was also placed before this Committee, that would have been a totally different thing, but he had the opportunity to qualify that statement, not in cross-examination, but in evidence in chief.
	The crux of the matter is that this applicant on his own version, was the only person in this whole operation who presumably received a certain direct instruction to kill people, from a higher level of decision making in the AWB and that he relayed that to some other people who was under his direct control and instruction.
	None of them were present when that was allegedly done, so now he is being given in this proceedings, the proper opportunity to explain exactly what the instruction was, which led to this whole affair and he chooses not to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer, proceed to put questions, but just remember one thing, we all know and I think many applicants for amnesty admit that much, that during the trial, all of them, they lied during the trial.  They did not tell the truth, they did not make a full disclosure, they did not tell everything that they had to tell, they all lied.
	The purpose of this proceeding now is for them now to come and tell the truth and make a full disclosure and then tell the truth.  You must always bear in mind that they say, they admit that they lied.  He also admitted that he lied to the trial court, for whatever reasons.  That he lied is not in dispute, so when you look into that record, you must expect to find a lot of lies.
	Those lies should not surprise you.  Mr Dreyer, I am not inhibiting you in any way in your questions, I just said that you should bear that in mind and proceed to ask precisely the questions that you wanted to ask.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, the basis of my question, the basis of the circumstances and the opportunity under which you said something?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: I said at some stage you were questioned by the Police and according to your version you were tortured, and I am not disputing that, I was not there, I have no reason to dispute that.  Do you understand?
	I want you to understand, I do not dispute that you were under pressure or the assault from the Police, I am not in the position to dispute this and I am not doing so, but during that time you made this statement that is before this Commission as well and you were under pressure, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Mr Chairman, this statement does not serve before this Commission.  There is one thing that I would like to put clearly, in question when I was tortured, when I did not keep quiet to expose this people, why would I have done it in the Supreme Court, I want to put it to you I protected them, Gen Oelofse and the Generals in staff and the AWB, I protected them.
	The reason why I am in a wheelchair today is because I protected them.

MR DREYER: The problem is then when you received the opportunity and that is my point, when you received the opportunity during the criminal procedures to say exactly what the instruction was you received and you limit it to the collection of ammunition and weapons for the war and the purpose of that war was to stop the election.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: You are correct, I did not go beyond that for the mere fact that I protected these people.

MR DREYER: You stay at this point, we are not going anywhere.  From there, the following facet is in page 638, it is still the evidence in chief.
	Now it is read to you from the same statement that is before the Commission.  The paragraph that reads the evening of the 12th of December, myself and eight of my mates met.  Myself, Deon Martin, Martin van der Schyff, Jaco Badenhorst, Gert Diedericks, Kallie Meiring, Pieter Matthews, Andre Visser and I think the other one was Ettiene Visser.
	Then your Advocate asks you do you agree with that and you say yes, I confirm it.  And then you say or he reads to you the following paragraph and he continues, we wanted the public to note how we felt about the fact that our people were getting killed on the roads and the farms, what do you say about that, and you received an opportunity to qualify yourself and then you say on page 639, I do not agree with this, but he should be read with paragraph 3.  Then the Advocate says let's read paragraph 3, and paragraph 3 reads, we noted or we agreed that we did not have the necessary weapons for such a thing and then your Advocate says, what do you mean.  What do you mean by this and you say, it was put to us clearly that on the 27th of April, there would be no election and us, the AWB would originally or we would have started the war and we needed the necessary weapons and ammunition to stop this election.
	Are you satisfied with that, that that is what happened during the criminal procedures?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, I am satisfied.

MR DREYER: Very well, but what concerns me is the logic here.  You say during those procedures sir, I received an instruction and the instruction was to collect weapons and ammunition for a war.
	And the purpose of this war was to stop the elections, am I correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Now, what do you do now with that instruction?  You go ahead and put it to your men to kill people that evening, the war hasn't started yet, the instruction was to collect weapons and ammunition to fight in this war, when this war comes, or if this war comes.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Mr Chairperson, apparently you wish to hammer on the point that I did not receive instructions from Gen Oelofse, I would like to tell it to you, it was told to us to put up this road block, confiscate weapons and ammunition and he wanted to see corpses.
	I understood from this instruction of the corpses, that we had to kill.  Our target group was identified to us as ANC/SACP alliance persons.

MR DREYER: I stay with my statement that all these procedures you did out of your own accord.   The instruction was not to kill people, but to collect weapons and ammunition.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is your version.

MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Kloppers, if I could just ask you, if I have heard correctly you said during June, during the court procedure you testified and you gave this version that was put to you, because Oelofse told you what to say?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is what I said, I had to stick to my statement as I had it there.  I cannot remember what I said precisely there, so I stuck with the planning what Gen Oelofse put to me there.

MR MALAN: But you have just testified now that Oelofse told you you had to protect the AWB and the revolution would continue, we would still wage war, that was in June 1994, that was your testimony.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And all this information you put it to the Court, that the reason for this was that the revolution would start, that the 27th of April would not come about, there will be no election?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct, there would be war.

MR MALAN: And you put it to the Court that these were the plans of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR MALAN: How are you protecting the AWB when you tell all this to the Court?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I felt that I had put it softly in comparison with murder, and that is what we did there, we went and killed people.  This happened on orders, I felt that if I put these things as such, it would be put softly.
	I was surprised that Gen Oelofse was not called to testify in court.