Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

MR KAHANOVITZ: He said you asked him if he was willing to go to Namibia and you told him to go there and hire a house, correct?

LEON A MAREE: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says at that stage you didn't tell him what he would be required to do, once he got there.

LEON A MAREE: I beg your pardon?

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says you didn't tell him what he would be required to do once he got there.

LEON A MAREE: Ja, I think - he was a sleeper, that's what he was supposed to be doing.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but what was he going to do when he woke up?

LEON A MAREE: I'll use different terminology so you can understand.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, I understand the concept of a sleeper, but what - you obviously both had a common understanding that he was going to be utilised for a particular purpose after he had established himself.  What was that purpose?

LEON A MAREE: There was no purpose explained to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  You gave him your pager number to contact him in the future.

LEON A MAREE: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says in August 1989 he had meetings with you in Swaziland and Johannesburg.

LEON A MAREE: I met him on a few occasions in Swaziland, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: By the way, part of those meetings in Swaziland were to give him money.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was he going to use the money for?

LEON A MAREE: His sustenance, to live.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why were you meeting him in Swaziland?

LEON A MAREE: I timed that with my company things for Lema, so have a cover to be at a particular place at the right time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why didn't you just deposit money into his bank account in Windhoek?  Why do you have to go and meet in Swaziland just to give him money, that's what I don't understand.

LEON A MAREE: I'm not sure what the particular thing, he had some problem and I made a plan to be in Swaziland to give him that money at that time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was his problem?

LEON A MAREE: I don't know.  I can't remember particularly what the problem was.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't really need all these fine details Mr Kahanovitz.  I'm not wanting to stop you, but just to remind you, we're not going to make any findings on the dealings between this witness and Aitchison, we're not briefed for that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Aitchison says that you gave him explosive devices which were to be used to sabotage SWAPO vehicles.

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You deny that?  I thought you might.    He says that you told him to give these to a man by code name Taxi who would place them

LEON A MAREE: Never heard of him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  He says you told him to take photographs of the house of Gwen Lister, the editor of the Namibian, establish what car she drove and take notice of who her contacts were.

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You deny that.

LEON A MAREE: Absolutely.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says that at this meeting where he received his instructions, you were in possession of a photograph of Anton Lubowski.

LEON A MAREE: That's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says that you gave him the registration number of Lubowski's car and you told him to keep a look out for it.

LEON A MAREE: No, that's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says he met with you on the 10th of September 1989 at the Kalahari Sands Hotel in Windhoek where you gave him an instruction to attempt to use poison to murder Gwen Lister.

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You deny that?

LEON A MAREE: Absolutely.  The meetings in Namibia were at the Sands Hotel.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He said at a subsequent meeting he discussed with you the difficulties that he was encountering in executing the plan to poison Gwen Lister.

LEON A MAREE: No, his problems were with housing.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He said that he returned to the cottage that he'd hired on a particular day thereafter and he found a parcel that had been left there for him, containing an AK47 and two magazines, this was on the 11th of September, 1989, the day before Adv Lubowski's assassination.

LEON A MAREE: I can't comment about that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says that you phoned him and told him to take this "parcel" to the Kalahari Sands Hotel between 8 and 9 o'clock in the evening on the following day.

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says, he denies, Aitchison denies involvement in shooting Lubowski, what he does say is that after Lubowski was shot, he phoned you, you told him that he should go to Lusaka for a few days and that you would meet him there.

LEON A MAREE: This is not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now the meeting that was held in Johannesburg, that's referred to in Mr Botha's statement, were you here yesterday when we dealt with the instruction being sent to destroy the guest register at the Norwood Hotel?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you at that meeting?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You confirm that an instruction to steal that hotel register was given at that meeting?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you confirm that you were instructed to go into hiding?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's incorrect.

LEON A MAREE: I was - there was no plan at that stage.  When Botha took the register, I wasn't given instruction then.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

LEON A MAREE: At what stage are you - at this meeting?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  Mr Basson said ...

LEON A MAREE: Not at that meeting, no.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well whether it - were you at any stage in or about, or let me rephrase the question.  Were you at some stage shortly after Lubowski's assassination instructed to go into hiding?

LEON A MAREE: In December and January 1990.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, that wasn't Mr Basson's evidence.  Mr Basson, or both Mr Basson and Mr Botha agree that at this meeting, or let me read you what is said about what happened at this meeting.  He says that there was this emergency meeting.  Sorry I got the name of the hotel wrong, it was at the Indaba Hotel or the Rosebank Hotel and that everybody was worried about Aitchison's detention and he says
"Particularly Maree and Burger."

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you particularly worried?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, I was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why were you particularly worried?

LEON A MAREE: Because I'm directly attached to this guy, I'm handling him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you thought maybe this guy killed Lubowski.

LEON A MAREE: Well, he was arrested, it was a problem for me, absolutely.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But why might he have killed Lubowski?

LEON A MAREE: No, I didn't say he killed, I don't know, but I'm connected directly to this guy who had been arrested.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now, but it struck you as conceivable that Aitchison merely off his own bat had decided to assassinate Lubowski, is that your evidence?

LEON A MAREE: No, I don't think off his own bat.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who might have asked him to do it?

LEON A MAREE: I'll be speculating.  At that stage in Namibia, everybody was running around in Namibia, not just the CCB and Military Intelligence.

CHAIRPERSON: But what Mr Kahanovitz is asking you, did you perceive that it was possible that he might have been the person who ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)

LEON A MAREE: That he might have been used, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because he was the kind of person who you were aware, if you offered him enough money, certainly he'd said to you:  "If you pay me, I will kill someone".

LEON A MAREE: No, he didn't say that to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But we've already had evidence that he held - Mr Burger has already admitted that Aitchison held himself out as a hit man.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, but he didn't tell me that.  He didn't tell me:  "Give me money, I'll kill somebody."

MR KAHANOVITZ: What does it mean to say if someone holds himself as a hit man?  He's saying to you:  "If you pay me enough money, I'll kill someone for you."

LEON A MAREE: That's the evidence of Mr Burger.  I can't judge by Mr Burger, that's what Mr Burger understood by it.