Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

CHAIRPERSON: Are you certain of that?  I thought not a few minutes ago, you said that you were the only person who had access to that arms cache and you did not disclose to any of your members, not even to your leader about the existence of such a catch and that you only helped yourself to one firearm, that being a 9mm pistol.  Now you are saying something different to what I earlier on understood you to be saying.  You are now saying that you distributed the arms cache disclosed to you by Mdo, to your fellow members of your formation when you had to go and launch an attack against the IFP subsequent to his death, is that what you are saying?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.  That was just before all these things, there was no reason for me to distribute the firearms without any problems.  I only distributed the firearms after comrade Mdo was killed because we wanted to  go and revenge and no one was arrested for Mdo's death.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Lucky one of the persons who was present when you had to launch these retaliatory attacks against the IFP after Mdo's death?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not discuss with him about the existence of such an arms cache?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I told him before going there to that place, I told him that I had some firearms that I was about to distribute.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before this incident for which you see amnesty, did you distribute these firearms?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I told him just after Mdo's death.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is, how long before the deceased was killed, did you distribute the firearms to members within your formation?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The death of - this incident of the killing of this person was among the last events.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that 2, 3, 6 months ago?  I'm trying to put a time span.

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, if I could just rephrase that question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when was Mdo murdered?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: In 1992.

MR PANDAY: What month in 1992?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot remember.

MR PANDAY: Now how, to your recollection and try and recollect as best you can, the incident for which you seek amnesty happened in September of 1992.

MR MALAN: November/December.

CHAIRPERSON: November/December of 1992.  Now when did Mdo get killed?  Was that a few weeks before this incident happened, or was it a few months, was it a year?  Are you not able to give an approximation?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot remember the date, but all I can remember is that it was in 1992 and it was on a Saturday and Mdo died on a Sunday and he had disclosed the arms cache on a Saturday and he died on a Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: I seem to have a recollection that you said something about the 2nd of February.  Wasn't that the date you stated as having been the date when Mdo died?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a reference to February 1992 which was made.  I seem to recollect, I didn't make a particular note thereof.  It was strange that you could recollect the date as well as the month of an innocuous incident.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, my voice is gone.  I'm sorry I've ... my voice is gone.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  How are you going to talk to us Ma'am with laryngitis?  Did you want to assist us?  Maybe Ms Kolane can come to your assistance.  Just read out what you would have wanted to say to us.

MS MTANGA: Sorry Chairperson, they moved to the new area on the 2nd of February 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thanks.  Are you not able to give us any reference with regard to this approximation in terms of telling us whether this happened in summer, when it was raining, this happened in winter, or this was in fall?  You are not in a position to give an approximation.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was in summer.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mdo was killed?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you say that was in summer, was that at the middle of summer which we know to be around November, or was it towards the end of summer which we know to be towards February?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I did not take note of whether it was towards the end of the season or what, I did not take note of that.

CHAIRPERSON: And neither are you able to tell us whether it was a long, long time ago, after Mdo had passed away, when you distributed the arms cache to members within your formation?  You are unable to give us even that indication?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Mdo's killing, we attacked on the very same day of Mdo's killing.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think, after you had distributed these firearms, did you collect them from
members within your formation, to return them to the case from which you had taken these firearms?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I managed to collect some of them and other firearms were taken by the other comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only incident that these firearms were used by members within your formation, that is in retaliation to Mdo's death?  Was that the only incident when you used these firearms?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is the only incident that I can think of.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your case you retained the 9mm pistol?  You retained it in your possession?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Panday.

MR MALAN: Just before, sorry Chair, before Mr Panday proceeds.  When the deceased was found guilty of the illegal possession of a home made gun, not a 9 mm pistol, furthermore the applicant was also found guilty of possession of one SSG shotgun capsule, or whatever you call them, "patroon", now the applicant here in his evidence  made reference to having no knowledge about an AK47 or something, that that was the first time, that was a false accusation, but that was not the charge.  The charge was a home-made shotgun and one SSG bullet.  Now does he have any knowledge of those items and can he explain it to us?  If he can't, we can't help him, Mr Panday and you know that.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, just to clarify the point about the AK47, I think what the applicant did say, with the arms cache was an AK47, that's not a local made firearm.

MR MALAN: But he said he took a 9mm pistol, he didn't say he took a home made shotgun and the question that you led in the beginning was to tell us about the firearm that he had in his possession, for which he was found guilty.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, Mr Panday, are your instructions that Mr Dlamini was in possession of a home- made firearm?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair, I understood it he discovered a ...(indistinct) that's the home-made firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but those were instructions.  Obviously you are aware that the evidence before us is pointing to something completely different.

MR PANDAY: To that of an arms cache, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, to be pertinent, it was a 9mm.  He says he was in possession of a 9mm and that is the pistol that he attempted to use on the deceased.

MR PANDAY: I accept what Madam Chair is trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just wanted to find out if you were actually asking questions which are within your mandate, as the instructed attorney, because if that is not so, we would afford you an opportunity of a short adjournment to clear that issue with your client, because I think you can see that putting questions, if you don't have instructions which are pertinent to the issue that we must cover for purposes of amnesty and bearing in mind obviously that he is convicted of being in possession of a home made gun and not in possession of a 9mm pistol.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to be afforded an opportunity?

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, may we stand down for 5 minutes.