Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

ADV DE JAGER: I think at the bottom of that page, 715,
"You are applying for amnesty in respect of assaults on them so you could (...indistinct).  I will do that, Sir, this Yekila, he is also the same as those of the task force together with Molefe, together with Serami Molefe.  He was assaulted by the askaris, but now before that, before he has been a member of the Ficksburg group, as I understand it, before that he was taken by us and then we tortured or assaulted him so that he succumbed to be our informer, so that we would be able to get information about APLA."

MR VISSER: Yes, referring to Jekila, clearly.

ADV DE JAGER: And Serami.

MR VISSER: Jekila, but certainly, Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Jekila and, Jekila and Molefe.

CHAIRPERSON: He was assaulted, not they were assaulted by the askaris.  He was taken.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I must with respect, Mr Chairman submit that, Mr De Jager, I do not think he is reading it correctly.  This is referring to Jekila and it was thrown in together with Molefe, but the whole narration concerns Jekila, with great respect, Mr Chairman, but we are going to leave it at that.  We have made our submission, Mr Chairman.  We would like to see us continue, not go backwards.

ADV DE JAGER: But I think the point is whether he has been assaulted or not, his situation would be relevant if Mr Memani could convince us that he is applying for amnesty in respect of the assault on Mr Molefe.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I have already said that I cannot deal with that question conclusively.  I am taken by surprise and if it is a condition to these proceedings proceeding, we might have to be given time to go through  the old documents and all the documents and see what the actual position is, but my understanding is that his name would not have been on that list if there was no intention to apply for amnesty in respect of that incident and that at the time when this evidence was led there was no objection from Mr Visser.  He was, this evidence was led in-chief and it was again led again in, under cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: This list was not part of his application was it?  It was entered by the TRC.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, my Lord, there are many things which were not part of this application and, you know, I cannot recall the history of the matter clearly, but a lot of things happened in the interim.

CHAIRPERSON: But was there any other application?  Are you satisfied?  There was the one application which is before us, a handwritten application and a typed Annexure A.  Is that his application?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, your ...

CHAIRPERSON: And he makes it clear in the application that the supplying particulars we must look at Annexure A.  These are the matters he is applying for amnesty for.

MR STANDER: May I refer you, Mr Chairman, the typed section in Bundle A of his application.  If I could perhaps be of assistance to you.  It possibly belongs to item 13 which reads,
"I have also been involved in assault and torture of detainee or of detained and/or arrested political activities as it is written here."

CHAIRPERSON: Read the next, yes, read on.

MR STANDER: "The said assaults and torture took place at
the offices of Internal Security Unit, fifth floor, Fountain Street, Bloemfontein."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is the point we are making, that is what he is asking for, amnesty for, incidents that took place at the fifth floor, Fountain Building.

MR STANDER: That is, that is true, Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STANDER: ... but as I submitted to you, I had to bring the witness to the point where he was arrested.  I was about to take him further where he would have been taken to Fountain Street where he has, where he was assaulted, but the objection was raised before I could get to that part of the evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: But I think it is, as far as the evidence of Motsamai is concerned, the applicant, he deals with this person by name.  On page 711 while he is dealing with all the victims and he comes to Serame Lefe,
"That is Serame Lefe, not Molefe as it is written.  It is I F at the end. He is a member of the African National Congress.  He had knowledge about the task force which is a unit of Apla.  He was troublesome, problematic and troublesome.  It was in the morning when we were able to find him.  Jantjie was present and then they had information from Lesotho about him.  When I speak of Jantjie I speak of a certain person in Ladybrand who is a Warrant Officer Jantjie.  They found information from Lesotho that this person has knowledge about Apla in Lesotho.
		We took him.  It was in the morning.  He was assaulted and he was screaming.  When I opened the door he was wrapped in a blanket.  I did not want to see who were responsible for the assault, because he was quiet and he wrapped with a blanket and lying on the floor.  He would explain very well that who were responsible for his assault.",
and then we go on to the next victim, victim number 22.  So, that is all the evidence that the applicant has given and the applicant does not admit that he assaulted him and he is not, I cannot see how he could apply for amnesty unless he says, well, I assaulted him.

ADV MEMANI: He does say, Mr Chair, it is a mistake, that they assaulted him.

ADV DE JAGER: They assaulted him.  (...Indistinct) yes, I have read that to you.
"We took him.  He was assaulted and he was screaming.  When I opened the door he was wrapped in a blanket.  I did not want to see who was, who were responsible for the assault ..."

ADV MEMANI: Yes, but there is also the part where he says we assaulted him because we wanted him to be an informer.  Apparently, you know, there is a possibility that he is referring to two different incidents here where he was wrapped in a blanket and at a certain stage where he was being recruited as an informer, which would probably ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: No, here he is specifically dealing with a person, a victim.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, but he says, when he speaks of Serame, he speaks of him at a time when he went in, they went in and he was wrapped in a blanket.  He also speaks of him being assaulted, because we wanted him to be our informer.  It seems to me that there is a possibility that the first assault where he was wrapped in a blanket could have taken place in a residential place and the assault which he associates himself with when they were recruiting him as an informer could have taken place in an office.

MR VISSER: We know that is not so, we know it took place in Ficksburg, Mr Chairman.  That is what the record says on ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Memani, I think if people want amnesty they must have the courage to clearly and unambiguously state it clearly that they have assaulted this person, I assaulted this person and this is what I did to him.  I mean, Mr Motsamai is not coming out clearly with regard to Mr Olifant, was trying to put together pieces of evidence here and there to try and decide by his evidence to say that he admits he has assaulted the person.  If a person applies for amnesty, if he wanted to apply for amnesty in respect of Mr Olifant, he should have stated it clearly, it should have come out clearly either in the application or in the evidence.  It must be clear.  We should not struggle to pick up one page there, one sentence there and the like.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, that is a valid criticism of the manner in which he deals with the, with this aspect.  However, it seems to me, at the same time, it does not go to say that there is no application for amnesty in respect of this incident and, you know, it is ... (intervention).