Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I have said when we were on trial at the High Court, Supreme Court at East London, what I said there was not always the truth because I was trying by all means to protect the commander, that he may not be arrested.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I understand that, I'm just simply trying to understand what you tell us now about the Nahoon Dam incident, the kombi that was shot at.  During the trial, and I refer to page 63 of the bundle, the Judge set out in his Judgement, the plea, in other words the plea explanation that you had given and that was that you had been acting under duress, you were present at those incidents but you were there against your will and later on the Judgement it would appear that you feared for your safety if you hadn't gone along, words to that effect.  That was the sense of it.  Was that not true?

MS GCABASHE: Mr Prior, could I just get a bit of clarification just so I can understand the question.  That explanation, did it relate to all of the acts generally or can you isolate it to the Nahoon Dam shooting in particular?  If you can just point us to that aspect on the record.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, at page 63 of the bundle Mr Justice Liebenberg sets out the detail of the plea explanation and it related to all the counts as I understood, that it was Nahoon, Da Gama and the Highgate as well as the various counts of robbery where the vehicles were highjacked before the attacks as well as the possession of the firearm.
	I do have the record of that trial present, I haven't put it up as a bundle because it was bulky.  If the Committee at any stage wishes to refer to the ipsissima of the trial, I do have that available for the Committee.  
	But it's a general question, that a plea explanation was put on behalf of Mr Ncamazana, that he was, throughout those incident set out in the indictment, it was against his will as if were.  He was under a form of duress, he feared that if he didn't go along with the others he may have been killed or injured.  Could he respond possibly to that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is true but what I said at the Court in East London was not true.

ADV PRIOR: You weren't under any form of duress, you were there of your own free will?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I was part of the unit and part of everything that happened.

ADV PRIOR: Do I understand from that response that you were there because you wanted to be there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was not forced, I was not by duress.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Mr Ncamazana, as I understand the philosophy and the training that took place with APLA, particularly in the Eastern Cape, you received political training and were you kept abreast of the developments politically within the PAC specifically insofar as those developments or decisions that were being made were brought to your attention?  	Did you keep abreast of those developments, political developments within your party?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we were told there, that moment, was the policy of the PAC, the aims and the objectives of the PAC and everything in the documents of the PAC and APLA that was necessary for us to know.

MR LAX: Mr Prior sorry, can you just canvass with him so we can clarify this, that APLA is in fact a formation of the PAC and that it's the political connection between on the one hand, the political commissariat and on the other hand the military commanders and how that interaction worked and how he understood that to work?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, maybe to digress just for a while, did you understand the structure or how the APLA organisation fitted in with the PAC as the political organisation or group?  Did you understand the relationship between the two?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The APLA was the military wing of the PAC.

ADV PRIOR: With its command structures.  You had the commanders that gave commands down the line to the soldiers on the ground, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: But there would also be a connection and there was a connection between the military wing, APLA, and the political side of the PAC where there was the political commissar?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

ADV PRIOR: Did you understand also, that between the military operation and the political group, the PAC, there was a political commissar which was the link or the connection between the two, the go-between?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I know that, that is true.

ADV PRIOR: Did you understand also that the APLA could not simply operate on its own, it had to be politically accountable to the hierarchy or the higher structures of the PAC?  In other words APLA would carry out, in the military, political decisions or policies that had been formulated by the political party.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I knew then and what was told was that my duty was to take instructions from my commander.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I understand that but did you also understand in the broader sense, how the political structure worked and how it fitted in with the military operation?  Or how the military operation fitted in with the political decisions that were made, did you understand that broader picture as it were?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Members of APLA are also members of the PAC.

ADV PRIOR: Let me give you an example.  For example the way forward or that idea of the way forward or people's war or the year of storm or the great storm, was something that the political leaders had devised and advocated, do you agree?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I knew was that slogan was from the late comrade Sabelo Pama.

ADV PRIOR: And did you just regard that as coming from the military structure?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because he was part of APLA I saw it that way.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  I don't know Mr Chairman if I've gone any further, maybe the Committee can clear that up.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, can I just propose that perhaps we put the question in a slightly different or simple way.
	Mr Ncamazana, in your knowledge of the nature of the relationship between APLA and the PAC, did you understand APLA to be taking instructions from the PAC?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It may be that that was so because truly, it could not do its own thing without the PAC.

ADV SANDI: You do not know it as a matter of fact that this was in fact the position, the PAC as the political leadership giving directions to APLA.  Are you speculating or are you saying that was in fact the situation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I think so.

ADV SANDI: When you say you understood your duty as one of carrying out instructions from your commander or commanders, who did you think the commanders were getting these instructions from as to what should be done from time to time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: If the commander gave me instructions the instruction he was giving me, as to where he got those instructions was not my business, mine was to follow those instructions.  Where he got those instructions was not part of my business, mine was to follow and accept those instructions that's all.

ADV SANDI: I don't know if you're happy Mr Prior, maybe that has sort of clarified the position?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Apart from simply carrying out orders, which I understand your evidence mainly to be, although you had the political training and you did these things to liberate the country and liberate black people, liberate the Africans, am I correct in understanding that the overriding motive that you had was simply, you were carrying out instructions given by your commander?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so, in order to free the black people.