Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR VISSER: Indeed I am Mr Chairman.  First two matters before I continue rounding off the evidence.  Yesterday we undertook to make photocopies of pages 44 and 45 of the record of proceedings before the Human Rights Commission Mr Chairman, They've been placed before you - we've dealt with them yesterday and we have nothing further to say about that.
	The other matter Mr Chairman, which I took to do last night, was a reference to the evidence in bundle B which refers to safe houses and Mr Chairman, would you just make the note that it is at pages 67 and 69.  We wish to make it quite clear that it does not support the proposition that Mr Madaka ran the safe houses, it's just for the benefit of your Committee to take note of the fact that there were these two references and we thought we'd draw your attention to it, we make nothing further of that matter.
	Mr Chairman, a third matter which I wish to bring up ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: It's pages 60?

MR VISSER: 67 and 69 in bundle B and it's just those two pages.
	Mr Chairman, if I may, before we proceed with the evidence of Mr Erasmus, may I be permitted to mention a matter of incorrect reporting which we could not help noticing last night on watching SABC news television and hearing the commentary.  Mr Chairman, it was stated in the commentary on the 8 o'clock news in English, that Mr Mthimkhulu was poisoned with thallium and secondly that this occurred while he was detained by the police.  
	Now Mr Chairman, in our respectful submission that bears no resemblance to the evidence given yesterday and with respect, we are quite certain that it was not calculated to pre-empt any findings of this Committee and we're not making that allegation but it does remain inaccurate reporting Mr Chairman.  And for the record we just wish to rectify that matter because both those issues are in dispute first of all and this Committee has made no finding in that regard.  We take it no further than that.
	If I then may continue to round off Mr Chairman, with Mr Erasmus - with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, one thing I think should be mentioned, there was reference was there not yesterday, to the fact that allegations had been made that he had been poisoned?

MR VISSER: That is indeed so Mr Chairman, quite correct.
	Mr Erasmus, you're still under oath - the oath which you took yesterday to tell the truth, do you understand that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	One last aspect which I'd like to deal with now - you yesterday explained to the Committee that you accept responsibility for giving the orders to eliminate Mr Madaka and Mr Mthimkhulu.  You also said that it wasn't Gerrit Erasmus the person, who gave the instruction but Gerrit Erasmus, the policeman.  Now, I would like you to place this in context because you also told the Committee previously that you experienced pressure from the hierarchy above you in this regard.  
	Now could you please just place this into the proper context regarding your orders and instructions and the pressure from above which you experienced,  is there a connection here and if so, what is this connection?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As I said yesterday and also in the background that I sketched as to how I grew up, the fact that I grew up in a Christian democratic home - after that I followed a long career in the South African police and there were certain influences at work, I was influenced by certain courses for instance which I did and at a later stage when the struggle actually escalated into a war, the struggle became more and more intense and the pressure also increased - that is pressure from politicians, from our own head office and pressure exerted by the already established security system.
	This was pressure was aimed at achieving more purposeful action.  There was also pressure from the surroundings and society because I think that the people who lived here could also - in respect of the activities of the youth and children who for instance became totally out of control, that that became a problem for society and the parents lost control over their children and we who had to perform this task experienced pressure.  And that task was to keep the Government of the day in power.
	Now, the norms and structures which were important to us as White South Africans, to keep that in place - that created certain grey areas as far as the policemen's work is concerned and more specifically, security policemen.  I, or any of my colleagues did not act for personal benefit or gain, that was not my motive.  We did what we did exclusively to safeguard the Government of the day and to keep them in power.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for a moment, by that do you mean that you did this to keep the Nationalist Party in power?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was the National party Government of the day, yes.  And the attacks and everything which happened here, more specifically the actions undertaken by the youth and COSAS and so forth, these things were aimed at overthrowing the National Party Government of the day.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Erasmus, one last aspect.  May I take you back to the process of discussions and talks which you had with du Plessis and van Niekerk or rather van Rensburg, apologies - Major van Rensburg, he was then a Major.
	Yesterday we referred to the fact that you were aware of the fact that there was a civil action brought by Mr Mthimkhulu, now certain reports in the media had already suggested in the past and also for the Harmse Commission, that that was the actual reason why Mr Mthimkhulu was killed.  What is your comment on that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, I was aware of the fact that a civil claim had been instituted.  In the past these - the fact that civil claims were instituted was not an unknown fact.  In this particular case that topic wasn't discussed at all, it didn't even cross my mind when I made my decision.

MR VISSER: Now you also referred to the fact that Port Elizabeth was actually the core and the flash-point of violence in the years 1980 to 1982, did you have any fears about the further spreading of this violence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that is so.  Statements made by - especially the youth, indicated that that was what would happen.

MR VISSER: What direction are you referring to?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Well, to actually cause the violence to spread throughout the country.

MR VISSER: And according to your view, was there a real danger that if you failed to bring the situation under control, that there was a possibility that violence could be spread further by organisations such as COSAS and that it could become a nation-wide problem?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that is so.  I was also aware that many of these escalated more intense actions on the part of the revolutionary movement had started here and then spread to other parts of the country.

MR VISSER: Now, yesterday you touched on this aspect but just for the sake of completeness, did you regard COSAS as separate from the ANC's policy of revolutionary action, or what was the position?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I regarded COSAS as an extension and a support of the internal set-up because the cadres, many of them had to come from outside the borders of the country to come and work here and they had to have a contact organisation here to assist them.   And for that reason I saw it as an extension and a leg of the ANC and a very strong supporting body.

MR VISSER: One last aspect Mr Erasmus, in your application you said that at some stage during your discussions there was a turning point, can you remember that?