Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not be able to comment on that because I was just explaining the direction from which we came.

MR BERGER: Let me move onto the next person that you stabbed, where was that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I actually hit the second person with a
knobkierrie.

MR BERGER: Is that the same person who you say came running out of the second house?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you attack any other people besides those two, the man that you stabbed and the man that you hit with a knobkierrie?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not do anything thereafter because there were police present and then we were also returning to our home.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, then it appears to me that you only attacked two people in Boipatong that night, the man that you stabbed in the street and the man that you hit with a knobkierrie, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: So the maximum number of people you could have killed that night is one, isn't that correct, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not admit to that.

MR BERGER: No, no, perhaps you didn't understand my question.  At most you could only have killed one person that night, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not agree with that because I could have killed two, three people or no one at all, so I cannot agree with that maximum number.

MR BERGER: No, Mr Mthembu, it doesn't work like that.  You see you told the Committee that you only attacked two people in Boipatong that night - the man who you stabbed near Umsimvuvu Street and the man who ran out of that second house, the man that you hit with a knobkierrie.  Those were the only two people in the entire township that you attacked, that was your evidence?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Well then, the man with the knobkierrie you didn't kill because he continued to run away, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, what I do not know is even though he proceeded to flee I may not be able to say what eventually happened to him, but what I do know or what I do know is that people died in the township.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you keep saying that and I'm asking you to account for the people that you could have killed and you've told me - well you've told me that there are two people that you attacked.  The one that you could have killed according to the evidence that you have given is the man that you stabbed.  You couldn't have killed the man that you hit with a knobkierrie because he ran away, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: So do you agree with me now that according to what you've said you could only have killed one person that night?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would agree because maybe the person I stabbed may have died.

MR BERGER: Correct, now my difficulty is this Mr Mthembu, one of the first questions that I asked you this morning was how many people did you kill in Boipatong that night and your answer was you couldn't tell me how many there were, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Why did you not say to me there's one person that I could have killed but only one that I could have killed, not more than one?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I could have said that but I could not say it because I can gather from your questions what you are asking but when I explain what I know you are twisting me around, trying to confuse me.

MR BERGER: Isn't the truth, Mr Mthembu ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, if counsel asks you a question which the Committee believes is unfair to you, the Committee will intervene.  I want to assure you that if you believe you are being asked an unfair question we will intervene, do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer to the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say that I may have killed one person or even more.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel asked you how many people you could have killed, your response was you cannot give him the number and you went further and you said you can't even say whether there were a hundred or more than a hundred and you added that because you were not counting, what you've just told us now indicates that you could have killed one person.  This is now the person that you stabbed at the back.  What counsel wants to find out is when he asked you how many people could you have killed because it's just one person, why didn't you tell him so?  Do you understand the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand.  As far as I can tell I did not endeavour to respond to that question because it was asked - I now understand that he wanted to know how many people I killed.  As I have explained, I stabbed one person so it is obvious or probable that I may have killed just one person.

MR BERGER: A few minutes ago you said "I may have killed one person or even more" now you say only one person.  Where's the truth, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I've explained it as with regards to the person I stabbed and the other one was hit with a knobkierrie maybe he survived.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this - as far as you can recall how many people did you stab that evening?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I remember this one person that I've mentioned.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you see, is it not the truth that you killed many people that night including women and children.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: And that there's no way in which you can say that the vast majority of the people that were killed were members of STU's and that's why you are now conveniently cutting them out of the picture, that's now why you say it was only one man, isn't that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, it is not so.

MR BERGER: You stand by your evidence that you only stabbed one person that night?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is true.

MR BERGER: Did you see any of your comrades killing or attacking people that night?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I did see the ones who were close to me but there were some with who I couldn't very well see.

MR BERGER: Could you name the people who were close to you, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The people who were close to me were Themba Mabode and Mr Tjonjo.

MR BERGER: Is this Mr Damara Tjonjo?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And who else was close to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I've explained it was Themba Mabode as well.

MR BERGER: In the thirty minutes that you were in the township, those were the only two people that you saw?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am only explaining about the people who were close to me.  It was difficult for me to see the rest because they were far.

MR BERGER: Did you see Mr Themba Mabode killing people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I did.

MR BERGER: And did you see Mr Tjonjo killing or attacking people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I did because they were close to me.

MR BERGER: And did you see anyone else killing or attacking people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Is it just coincidental that the two people who you named are both deceased?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Can you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: Is it just coincidental that the two people, Mabode and Tjonjo that you named are both deceased?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: They are both deceased.

MR BERGER: And you can't identify a single person who is alive, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Identify him where?

MR BERGER: As somebody who was attacking or killing a resident of Boipatong?