Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-12-04

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Sir,  I am very sure that if you had found any such document you would have been able to use that to verify such statements, and the fact that you do not do it must be clear that it was not discussed with the State Security Council.
 Can I take it further.  You are talking about very serious allegations here and I am certain that Advocate Treurnicht is going to object now, but  I myself was accused in the legislature that I am a murderer and that I have blood on my hands which is absolutely untrue.  Where there's a privilege to make irresponsible personal accusations if one is running a State in such difficult times one must be very, very careful of making serious allegations of this nature towards one's colleagues.  That is why one is not at that stage where one is in meetings entitled to make wild allegations regarding such things.   It must be verified by the facts,  and that is why I am under the impression today that the police - I was under the  impression that the police made the necessary enquiries and that it was their job to determine what the facts were it was not my job.

MR MCADAM: Is it correct that members of the National Intelligence Services could also have worked for the security branch of the South African police or military Intelligence before that and then they were transferred to National Intelligence?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: All officials in any State can be transferred from department to department.  In the Bureau for State Security that was formed in 1969 it was formed from people who were previously involved in State departments, that is true and in the run of time it did not occur that much but people in the Intelligence services also transferred from one department to another.

MR MCADAM: Did your department at any stage gain knowledge of the existance of a military component called the CID, Civil CCB excuse me the Civil Co operation  Bureau?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: The answer is no.

MR MCADAM: There are certain aspects other people would want clear up.
 I just want to determine whether there was a movement called the Wit Doeke were active in the Cape environment during the 80's?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: This matter regarding the Wit Doeke and the fact that they acted in Cape Town in certain stages was reported in the Intelligence documents I referred to.

MR MCADAM: Would you have been involved in any support of these Wit Doeke?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I think that I have often said that we were not an executive department I'm answering, no definitely no.

MR MCADAM: Are you aware of the attempt to overthrow the Government in the Seychelles in the 1980's?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes  I know about that.

MR MCADAM: Do you know about the allegations made at that time that you were involved in that attempt?   Is your answer then that I am aware that NI was involved?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes I'm aware of those allegations.

MR MCADAM: : And those allegations a great deal was based  on a member of the Intelligence Services?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Please excuse me Mr Chairman but Mr Dollichick was not a senior member of the Intelligence Services.  But I leave it at that.  Mr  Dollichick  was a member of the Durban Regional office of the National Intelligence Service at that time.  I paid a visit to Durban because we tried to visit the regional offices every two years. During that time during that visit I asked whether I would hold a discussion with Mr Mike Ward  I did just that and he informed me that they had a plan to execute a coup in the Seychelles and he said couldn't provide assistance in this regard? And I answered no we won't support them.  The next thing I heard about that was that a plane of Air India which landed on the Durban airport and it was mentioned Mr Dollichick was also involved in this matter.  He was never authorised by NI  to undertake that coup.

MR MCADAM: So you would deny any official involvement in that?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes definitely.

MR MCADAM: There was a criminal case in which some of these people  were accused in the court and most of them were members of a reconnaissance unit.  Were any investigations instituted by the Government why these people become involved in such a lawful action?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: As far as I know I can't say whether the security police or whoever were involved in this matter.  This Seychelles matter was subject to a judicial inquiry.  There was a long court case where all State departments made various inputs.  I don't know whether new light will be shed regarding this whole matter.  It was a subject of  a whole prolonged judicial inquiry.
 If I remember correctly the judgment says that NI was aware of that and I've just told you in which way we were aware of that matter.

MR MCADAM: I just want to determine, there are a few questions derived from a document which was provided to you,  it's marked "trictly confidential" 15 V '86 and that's regarding counter-revolutionary strategy's comments.  Do you have that document?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes I have it.

MR MCADAM: I want you to look at page 9 at the bottom 3.2.1.3.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes I have the place  thank you .

MR MCADAM: "The activities of the comrades or the street committees as communication channels or as communication channels regarding a community organisation or intimidation will be to make ungovernable by the leader elements by operation Vasvat to clandestinely make them the target of the Wit Doeke".
 And then we go to 3.2.5.  
 "The activities against and the intimidation of anarchists and revolutionaries by the vigilantes or hamanagalala including for example an organisation such as Inkatha should be strengthened, expanded and enforced as a natural counter-measure against anarchy.  After order had been established it should be tried to recruit these people as law enforcement officers to render service in various communities.  Can you comment on that?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chairman I would ask don't you want to ask a specific question regarding this ?

MR MCADAM: What is bothering me regarding this is on page 10.  Mention is made about making vigilantes clandestine targets and then also actions and intimidation by vigilantes must be done through Inkatha and it should be expanded as a natural counter- measure against anarchy   It seems to me you can assist me.  I did not write this document but it shows support of the vigilantes and their actions.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chairman in trying to interpret this document In that paragraph you've read 313 activities of the comrades and following on that and then also leadership element being curtailed by Vastrap etc, it means this is the point of departure I've already put forward in my statement.  In this revolutionary climate there were many leaders in a local communities right across the country especially in the areas known as the people who did not have any political rights in those areas, those leadership elements played a role in activating the revolutionary climate and a way had to be found to neutralise them, that means to take away the ability to strengthen the revolutionary climate.  That was what is meant  by that they should be neutralised,  that they should not have the ability to strengthen revolutionary climate.   In that type of climate the process which we tried to make a peaceful negotiation was not possible.

MR MCADAM: Your department, did you give any inputs in the development of  this policy?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chairman I just want to come back to the heading of this document.

MR MCADAM: If you look right at the top you'll see strictly confidential and there's a code number saying NI etc. I draw the inference that this document was drawn up by NI and other departments made contributions.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes that is what the document is saying.