Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

SISI KHAMPEPE: I mean the fighting between the ANC and the IFP was the order of the day.  You must I presume have held several meetings as IFP members together with your leadership to discuss about this very serious issue of the attacks which were going on between the two political parties.  Now are you saying that there wasn't even a suggestion from the leadership about what you as followers were to do in the event of an attack by ANC supporters, is that what you want us to believe?  Truly Mr Zuma, we merely want to understand the causes of the fighting that were going on in Richmond and in this case we are trying to understand what prompted you to do what you did, we are interested in knowing the truth.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would say that none of the IFP leaders sent us to go and attack the ANC members, we attacked them because they didn't want Inkatha at Richmond, that's what I'll put clearly before the Committee.  We attacked them because they didn't want us, they wanted ANC to be the only ruling party in that area.  I wasn't sent by any chief or any senior member at Richmond, we just went there to attack the ANC people who attacked us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Zuma, you testified that you could see the people who were attacking you and you knew most of them, do you remember that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: May you please repeat the question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your evidence you said you could see the people who attacked you and you knew most of them.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I can't understand the question very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay I'll help you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't asked a question yet, he's just telling you what you said, just listen.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember saying that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would like you to please repeat for me what I said.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You said - I'll quote you now
I could see them - that is the attackers - I could see them come, I knew most of them - the them is the attackers.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct, I remember that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now of the people that you attacked, maimed and killed, are any of them some of those that you saw attack you?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would say it was the ANC members from Ndaleni because one of the persons Dumisani Ntolo.  I saw him as a person whom I knew and I could recognise him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Zuma, please understand my question.  You saw these people - you knew most of them, now those that you attacked, are they amongst those that you saw attack you?  I don't want to know whether they were ANC, I just want to know whether those that you knew and you saw attack you, where those included as your victims?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Those whom we attacked as we also attacked women, I would say the women were not involved but the men were the people that attacked us.  I would say I personally think those were the people who attacked us.   I didn't see them because it was in the evening, I was seeing them from a distance.  When they started shooting I ran away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us you saw and you recognised most of the people who attacked you, is that true or not?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I put it in this way,  I knew most members of the ANC in that area, not that I saw them, I knew them.

CHAIRPERSON: You now say you didn't recognise the people who attacked you.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't know the people that attacked us on that particular day but I said that I knew most of those people but I didn't see them on that specific day of the attack.  I knew the people who used to attack us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So the statement, the evidence from yourself that - I could see them come, I knew them - is incorrect?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I saw them coming from the other attacks but I don't ...(inaudible) specific incidents of the last attack, I didn't recognise them because when they started shooting I ran away.  However I used to see them before, coming to attack.  I could see them that it was so and so coming.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So this evidence that you've just given and you said it's not right, it pertains to the incidents in the past not the incident on the day when you also decided to revenge, am I right?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's restrict ourselves to the incident on that day, the 23rd of June.  These attackers, your attackers, did you see them?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I saw them but I couldn't recognise who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see someone Ndaseni Ntolo?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Dumisani Ntolo, didn't you see him at the time you were being attacked?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I didn't see Dumisani Ntolo, I saw him in court.

CHAIRPERSON: But you mentioned his name earlier as someone you saw amongst the attackers, why did you do that if it was not true?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would say it's a mistake or confusion because that happened a long time ago, I don't remember well and I can't get the full picture because this happened in 1991 and I just remember some bits and pieces of what happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Zuma I'm a little confused, maybe you can throw some light on my confusion.  You see when you started in your evidence you stated that you knew most of the people who had launched an attack in your stronghold because you grew up together.  This is what I have in my notes but further than that, in your application you stated the name of Dumisani Ntolo as the person that you knew ...(intervention)

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: As having ...(inaudible) on the day in question.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You didn't recognise Dumisani Ntolo as one of the attackers on the 23rd of June, is that what you are now saying?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I didn't see Dumisani Ntolo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And are you saying you didn't recognise any of the attackers on the 23rd of June?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I didn't recognise any however they came shooting but I couldn't recognise who they were.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You now want to amend your statement because I don't know how we actually have what you earlier on stated when you were led by your attorney in chief.  You said I knew most of the attackers because we grew up together in the same area, they were armed and many.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should add a little on my note.  Before what you said which was just put to you, you were asked specifically about the 23rd of June and that's when you said - on the 23rd of June when you were attacked so we're not talking about the past or other things.  You were specifically asked by your own lawyer when you said on the 23rd of June when we were attacked, I knew most of them.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why Mr Zuma, would you make such a mistake, are you saying it's a question of the interpreters?  How could you have made such a mistake, it is an important piece of your evidence?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Mistakes do happen.  As a convicted prisoner and I stayed a long time in jail, sometimes I get confused and I'm not able to give concise answers.  What I knew is that coming before the Committee, I was going to give the full account of what I know and did.  I didn't know that I would be asked so many questions and I would have to answer them.
	I get confused as you throw so many questions at me because I'm used to being asked so many questions at this time.  As a prisoner, I will say that I should put it clear that it wasn't my intention to start a fight or attack the ANC people, they are the people who attacked us.  And now if you continue asking me these questions I got confused when answering the questions.