Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-09

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about injuries that may have been inflicted by you, but by anybody else.

MR DU PLESSIS: I did not see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Due to the slaps that you gave him, there could have been bruises and swelling?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's possible.

UNKNOWN: If one hears of injuries, how do you understand this?  What does this mean to you?

MR DU PLESSIS: External injuries, wounds that are bleeding, yes.

UNKNOWN: As regards the Port Elizabeth branch, did you mainly deal with his interrogation?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Regarding the interrogation of this man, at the initial stage while you were busy trying to get information from him, did any of the P.E. members also interrogate him as far as you can remember?

MR DU PLESSIS: All that I know of was that Sergeant Raath assisted me at that stage.  I can just mention that at this stage I cannot say whether he was present at all times but it - he is the only person that I can recall who was present with me during the interrogation.

UNKNOWN: The infamous Warrant Officer Niewoudt, was he involved in the interrogation of this detainee at all?

MR DU PLESSIS: I think I can say categorically that he was not involved in this interrogation.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Roelofse?

MR DU PLESSIS: He wasn't involved either.

UNKNOWN: The East London people to whom reference is made - in order to correlate information from their side, did they send somebody down to interrogate him as well?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Is it also correct that at one stage he was transferred from Humansdorp Police Station to Jeffrey's Bay?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the Commission, during your interrogation of Mr Kondile - and try to keep it brief, which information was obtained from him?  I want you to refer to information that he gave to you as well as things that he pointed out to you.

MR DU PLESSIS: In brief, he gave us information regarding training in Lesotho, who was active in Lesotho, several infiltrations that he had knowledge of, that he received training in the handling of weapons himself, as well as political training, that he also came in, in order to do recruitment and to find safe places.
	He also pointed out several places to us where the freedom fighters - after they had infiltrated the RSA from Lesotho, where they had got out of taxis, where they were being transported to.  And he also pointed out where trained terrorists found themselves which we followed up.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean: "He pointed out where trained terrorists found themselves", what does that mean?

MR DU PLESSIS: Where at that stage of the day they were working or residing.

ADV DE JAGER: You used the word ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: If I can just start from the beginning.  We went to the Transkei with him at a later stage where he gave information regarding two people - I think it's two people, who worked in a bank in the Transkei.  He also told us exactly where they were in that bank, where their desks were.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that these two people were trained terrorists?

MR DU PLESSIS: According to him, yes.

UNKNOWN: If you could possibly turn to page 170 of Volume 2, paragraph 7(b).  The security report also dealt with an old black man who had control over a place where weapons were hidden and Kondile and - could point out these two people - a weapons cache that Kondile could point out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, did I hear you say it was Volume 2, page 170?

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, it's page 170 of Volume 2 and more specifically paragraph 7(b).  I apologise Mr Chairman, if I'm going too fast.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it. Thank you.  Yes?

UNKNOWN: Let us deal with the Transkei situation.  As a result of this information you went to Umtata?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And very briefly, what happened there?

MR DU PLESSIS: We had no jurisdiction in the Transkei.  We went to the security branch offices in Transkei where we spoke to a  certain General or Brigadier - I can't remember the surname, he then got the Intelligence Service in from the Transkei and they went to arrest these two people.  However, somebody warned them or they realised what was happening and they escaped or fled with a white Escort Sport.

UNKNOWN: Was Mr Kondile with you when went to this place?

MR DU PLESSIS: He didn't go with us personally to the security branch offices, he and Sergeant Raath and some other people waited along the road outside Umtata for us.

UNKNOWN: But he went with you to Umtata but not to the security branch offices?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And did he point out anything else to you?

MR DU PLESSIS: He pointed out several places which the trained terrorists used, where they got out at King William's Town from the taxis - taxi ranks.  He also pointed out photos of people in photo albums - the people who were active in the ANC, especially the MK level.

UNKNOWN: Did he give you particulars regarding or details regarding the places where the ANC supporters found themselves or were to be found in Lesotho?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.  In more detail he pointed them out as well and we couldn't take any action at that stage for various reasons.

UNKNOWN: Did he have any knowledge regarding the smuggling of weaponry or propaganda material?

MR DU PLESSIS: On occasions he was involved from Lesotho to assist people to getting suitcases with false bottoms through.

UNKNOWN: This information which was given to you by the deceased, was this correlated with any other information that you had at your disposal?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: How reliable was this?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would say 100% reliable.

UNKNOWN: In other words ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: It was confirmed by them.

UNKNOWN: Thereafter, did you at one stage speak to the deceased regarding the possibility of working for you?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you just tell us what happened there?

MR DU PLESSIS: We dealt with several informers on the other side - that's in Lesotho.  However, as any information agency we had certain voids and these were especially that we could with all reasonable safety say that if people infiltrated the Eastern Cape or to surrounding areas, that we knew that they would commit terrorist deeds but we did not know when and where they were on their way to.
	The position in which Kondile was, was perfect in the sense that firstly he was a confidant of Mr Chris Hani, he lived with him, he was intelligent and I was of the opinion that he could fill that void for us because with the correct briefing he could join in and we could possibly have known when people were infiltrating, where they were infiltrating and with what purpose they were infiltrating.

UNKNOWN: Possibly something which you can just deal with now, what was the nature - if any, of Mr Kondile's training as it appeared from his interrogation?

MR DU PLESSIS: He mentioned to us himself that he had received training in Lesotho, which we call basic training in the handling of firearms, intelligence and politics.

ADV DE JAGER: This document which you refer to: page 170 which starts on 167 - it's a security report, who compiled this report?

UNKNOWN: It was compiled by Detective Warrant Officer H. Prinsloo of Bloemfontein.

ADV DE JAGER: The last paragraph of that reads
"Kondile has not yet been interrogated in detail regarding attacks in the Cape Province as tentative arrangements were made with the security branch, Port Elizabeth, to do this with their co-operation"
So this document was compiled before his transfer to Port Elizabeth or not?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I would say that this document - the contents of this document, was already in Port Elizabeth or arrived in Port Elizabeth as a result of crypto messages - this was a summary of their interrogation.