Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-18

PROF MEIRING: Mr  Mafafo.  Could we please have order, could we please have quiet.  Mr Mafafo, thank you very much, it was not only crystal clear but also entertaining.  Which is to us as commissioners here at the front from time to time, I guess something that we need. I wasn't sure that you would become the general of the New South Africa, but what I clearly thought was of some assistance to us is your ability to track.  You said you were an expert tracker, then maybe you should help us in tracking some of the other footsteps that we have in the other cases in getting to the root of the problem.  But thank you very much, I'm sure you wouldn't mind answering a few questions that we will have.
Could I kick off.  You ended up in your statement by saying that this BCM perpetrator, that was arrested on the scene appeared in Potgietersrus Magistrates Court.  Did you get the name of that individual?  You didn't at the time of your statement, do you know now who this individual was that appeared?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: The other one which I knew is called Maluleke and the other one's Alait.  This one is still alive.

PROF MEIRING: Was he convicted? Has the case been finalised?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: Yes the case was completed but I was never called to court.

PROF MEIRING: Was he sentenced to prison?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: Yes I hear so.

PROF MEIRING: A further question that I would like to follow up, you gave as a flowery exposition of how you came to leave the force.  Are you presently unemployed?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: I'm not working at the moment.  I was expelled from the police force in a very bad manner and as the doctors told me that I can only perform a light job, but the Commissioner Maluti, just decided that he didn't want to see me any more in the police force.  But now things are bad, and according to the doctors reports, they tell me that I can still be in the force.

PROF MEIRING: Your medical reports through our investigative unit, we haven't seen it yet but we will be studying that.  May I just also then ask you, you say you were expelled from the force.  Were you expelled or did you retire on the basis of your disability.

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: I was just sickly but I didn't resign because I still knew that I was a policeman and I still wanted to.  Even when I was walking in crutches, I wanted to show the coming new government my knowledge.

PROF MEIRING: Are you still getting a pension or some disability payment form the police force?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: I'm only getting a pension, I never received a cent for my disabilities.  They denied that because they say I'm still on duty.

PROF MEIRING: You are getting monthly payments from them on some or other basis?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: Yes I'm only getting a little and I cannot support my children.

PROF MEIRING: I unfortunately have my own children that I have to look after, so I won't be able to help you, but we will certainly follow on to that.  I don't think there is anything that is not clear to me at the moment but I'm sure some of my colleagues may have other questions. Thank you very much Mr Mafafo.
:   Mr Mafafo, just a few questions please, one of the important things which we look at in the Truth Commission in terms of gross human rights violations is that we need to establish that the context in which the violations took place was political.  Now this incident at the shebeen which led to you following this up, do you have some idea of what the political context was, you say that the people who fired at the shebeen were members of the Black Consciousness Movement, are you first of all absolutely sure of that, was that established in the court case or was that something that you read in the newspaper?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: I said when I looked in the beginning with my expertise, this Scorpion gun can not be found in South Africa, it can only be applied by people who were.....(end of side A of tape)
(Side B follows on)...... it was these people, those members, I also remember that one of those guys is from Free State, one of those who died.  It's true it was those people of AZANDLA.
:   Did they say that they did this, are you aware?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: Yes they agreed, because their leader Masibudi told the papers that it was them who did that.
:   What reason did they give for doing that, why would they attack people in a shebeen, do you have any idea? What was the explanation?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: I clearly do not understand what these people were doing at the shebeen. I don't get their reason of fighting people at a shebeen as a shebeen is not a political place, and all these people were just drunk, so I do not so I do not understand clearly. I don't understand how a shebeen and politics can go together according to my knowledge.
:   Well I'm not an expert in that, so I can't answer that question Sir.  But you're convinced that when you went after these people, did you give a warning to say that you're the police and coming to arrest them or what actually happened when the firing happened with the grenade and the gun attack?  Were there warnings beforehand or did people just open fire?

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: There was no warning.  The thing is the other police were just coming in innocently, they wanted to knock because they knew a church was just a place of peace and now this thing just happened.  There it went.

PROF MEIRING: I'd like to ask a question, you said that when you followed these people to the scene of the shooting, the footsteps led to the AME Church, and then you said you asked yourself, who was this priest, the AME Church yes, and you said who allowed such bad people in his church. Are you very sure that the local priest or pastor invited them and allowed these people into his church? Was he caring for them.  Could it be that they were there against his will or are you sure that they were guests invited by him into the church.

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: Now things are getting tough.  According to my expert knowledge, when doing the investigations it was some few days that these people stayed with the priest.

MEMBER OF PANEL: At that time it was wrong to put those kinds of people in such a place, was the priest taken to court for that.

MOLOKO JAIROS MAFAFO: I later heard that he was arrested but I do not know actually about his whereabouts.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you, we clearly understand how you were severely injured and the way all these things happened until now you're in a situation where you're unemployed.  Thank you for making all that clear to us.  We will help you and we hope that you will help us and both of us will make sure that those kinds of things will no longer happen in this country, where innocent people are just hurt and where people are allowed with dangerous guns, even at the shebeens.  Thank you very much for that.