Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Well doesn't that - when they say that if is forced on us - doesn't that suggest that they would act defensively and not pro-actively.  In other words not to start revolution but to fight it off?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: According to what I received from the Generals and staff that is not what I interpreted, it was not only a defensive act it was also meant to be offensive.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how you understand it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, precisely when did you or at which stage did you tell your men that you're going to put up a roadblock for the first time?  When did you tell them for the first time?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The first time at Deon Martin's house.

CHAIRPERSON: So while you were on the road or when you left Mr Martin's house they knew, including Mr Martin, knew that you're going to put up a roadblock?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And to kill people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you actually mounted the revolution that day?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I believed firmly that the revolution began on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you have in mind by revolution?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: In my opinion I thought that the instruction which I carried out would spread and that I would receive further instructions to carry out further tasks and that is why I was surprised when General Oelofse said that we should lie low.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in radio contact with General Oelofse while you were at the roadblock?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No I was not in radio contact with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in radio contact with any other person while you were at the roadblock?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I was not in radio contact with any person.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not have been able to contact anybody to co-ordinate operations?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the people admitted that - to Mr Martin - that they were members of the ANC SACP Alliance and when they did so, you were standing behind them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: With a baton?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct

CHAIRPERSON: Were you friendly - were you speaking with these people friendly?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, I was not friendly with them.  I spoke harshly and sharply and concisely with them.

CHAIRPERSON: So one would expect that they must have been frightened?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And indeed you found a need to hit two of them with a baton?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that in evidence in Chief you said you did so because they did not give satisfactory answers?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me what you mean thereby?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The type of answers which they were providing were answers such as "who are you to ask me, what do you want to know?"  They didn't get to the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, repeat yourself?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: They would answer me with a question such as "Who are you, what do you want, what do you want to know, why are you asking us these questions?" and not everybody's Afrikaans was that good and in English they would say "it doesn't matter to you, what does it matter to you?"

CHAIRPERSON: Well when they asked you why do you want this information for, why should we admit it to you, did you tell them that "I want that information so that I can kill you"?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No I didn't say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, why didn't you tell them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I was afraid that they would jump up and run away and that I would be caught in the crossfire seeing that I was standing behind them and my men were not prepared to shoot yet.

CHAIRPERSON: You were afraid they might run away?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct and a further problem was that I was standing behind them therefore I would have been in the line of fire of my men.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't like to create any chance for them to - can run away?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They are supposed just to be killed?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: No chance to run away?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you stand behind these people, you're not friendly you're hostile, you beat up one or two of them because you are not satisfied with their answers.  Now in the end they say to you "we are ANC members" and on the basis of the fact that they are members of the ANC SACP Alliance you kill them.  How liable did you think was their admission that they were ANC members when they are frightened, when you've beaten one or two of them when you're standing behind them, you're hostile?  How liable did you think that information was?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At that point I wasn't thinking about how realistic their answers were.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it matter to you?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It mattered to me that they answered my questions.  If they had said that they belonged to the IFP or any other party I would have singled them out.

CHAIRPERSON: No, my question to you is - it didn't matter to you or not whether their answers were reliable or did it matter to you?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It didn't matter to me, if he had said that he was a member of the ANC that would have been enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kloppers, were you not worried that it might just be that one of them, through fright and intimidation, may just admit that he's an ANC member when in fact he isn't?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That wasn't of any concern to me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you took no steps whatsoever to make sure that their information that they are ANC members was correct, you took no steps?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I took no steps apart from interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: And beating them and beating two of them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How do we know - how sure are you Mr Kloppers today as you are sitting there that the people you killed were in fact members of the ANC, how sure are you?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Today if I look back to the entire situation I am absolutely certain that they were members of the ANC SACP Alliance because I saw the funerals of one of them on television, I saw the casket being carried by Umkhonto we Sizwe members.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the others?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know about the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's not talk about them let's leave them out.  I'll rephrase my question.
	How sure are you that those whose funerals you didn't see on television, how sure are you today as you are sitting there that they were in fact members of the ANC.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I can't say, you would have to ask the next of kin of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is possible as you are sitting there you killed people who were not members of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If he admitted to being a member of the ANC I would have shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's enough?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And if they were to come here and say "well we never said that we were members of the ANC" what would you say?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If they had never been members of the ANC and they would stand before me today and say that they were not members of the ANC I would say that I am sorry because I am sorry for those who were caught in the crossfire in this unrealistic warfare because to me it is simply an empty refrain of the AWB.