Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I would not lie because this happened at night, round about twelve midnight.  People kicked the door and said Zet you are in trouble today and they were carrying an automatic rifle.
	As I was listening, I could hear Kokeli Bongi's voice and after the silence, after the hail of bullets my mother was already down and I attempted to go outside, then I saw Ngxobongwana who said this dog is alive still and he tried to kick my neighbour's door.
	People were already up at that time.  The people did not see or identify this people, but they could see that there was a group of people going to my house, but nobody was identified.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you identify the voice of Kokeli Bongi?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, I heard Kokeli Bongi's voice and when I went outside I saw him, because when he saw me, he said here is this dog and it is still alive and I ran into Richard Mbali's house.
	But they fired once whilst I was running, but they did not hit me.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 27th of August, were you involved in any matter?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, on the 27th of August I had a matter.  I had to appear in court on the 14th of May.  But that was postponed to the 27th of August because of my mother's illness.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said that your mother had died on the 13th of May?  And you say you couldn't appear in court on the 14th of May because of the illness of your mother, how is that?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: My mother was not staying with me.  She slept over at my place because I was to appear in court on the 14th.
	But the matter was postponed to the 27th because of this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you in court on the 27th?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I was appearing on these firearm charges.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to that case?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The court said that that firearm had disappeared and therefore the case was dismissed.  I was acquitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you and the first applicant facing the same charges on the 27th of August?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, we were arrested and faced the same charges.

JUDGE WILSON: When did that incident take place that gave rise to those charges?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Before I went into court on the 27th, there were policemen who were in a hurry to arrest me.  And therefor the lawyer had to see my Magistrate because the policemen wanted to talk to me.
	And therefore Mr Peter said that he will accompany me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't think you understood the question.  When did the incident which gave rise to you appearing on the 13th of May, happen - no, the 27th of August?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: What I was appearing for on the 27th of August was the incident whereby we were arrested in a kombi in which we were travelling and they found firearms in it.
	But this did not happen on the 27th, but I do not recall the date but it was - we were arrested whilst we were in a meeting and I was granted a bail.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was that?  Can you give an approximation?  You were arrested on the 13th of May?  Was it the 13th of May when you were arrested and you appeared in court?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The 13th of May is the day on which my mother was attacked.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You appeared on the 14th of May?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: This incident of my arrest was somewhere in April, but I cannot say definitely the date.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you involved in an attack on a police van?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: When was that alleged to have happened?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I do not recall the date exactly.  But it is exactly as you mentioned.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that the offence for which you and the first applicant appeared in court on the 27th of August?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: On the 27th of August I was appearing for being in possession of a firearm whilst attacking this police van.

JUDGE WILSON: And was the first applicant also appearing in court that day?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: We did not appear on that day.  But we were arrested and appeared on the following day, they were just accompanying me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there no evidence led in court on the 27th of August?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Now on the 29th of August, were you going to attend a meeting?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Please rephrase your question, what meeting are you referring to?

JUDGE WILSON: I am asking you whether you were going to attend a meeting on the 29th of August?

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't matter what meeting, were you going to attend a meeting?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: On the 29th of August we were according to the information that we got that there will be a meeting between Mpisane and the policemen in the R Block and thus we decided to go to that meeting so that should there be such a meeting between Mpisane and the Police, we could attack.

JUDGE WILSON: Who decided this?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The decision was taken by myself because I said that it would be difficult for us to let them have a meeting with the policemen, so should we find them in such a meeting with the police we should just attack them.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you the leader of the Self Defence Unit, the Branch Commander?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, I was the leader of the SDU in general from Khayelitsha up to Nyanga East.

JUDGE WILSON: And you went to the house of Mpisane, did you?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, we went there to Mr Mpisane's house and he was standing outside.  Unfortunately there was no meeting.  When we got there, I greeted him and Eugene pointed him with a firearm and he wanted to know where is this meeting.
	He did not point out the direction but he just ran away.

JUDGE WILSON: We are getting no interpretation.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: When we got there we greeted him and Maliqole shot him and thereafter we decided, I condoned what he did because it was a decision to prepare for anything to attack when we got to his house.

JUDGE WILSON: When you got where did Moliqole shoot him?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: As he was standing outside, when he started to turn into his house, that is when he shot him.

JUDGE WILSON: So he was standing outside, he started to turn towards his house and you shot him?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: He was running towards a different direction, not going into his house.

JUDGE WILSON: But a moment ago you said he started to turn towards his house?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: What I am saying is that as he was turning around the corner into a passage ...

JUDGE WILSON: And where did you go then?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: We went back to the L Section where I am staying.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't go to a school where there was supposed to be a meeting?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, we did not proceed thereto any more.

JUDGE WILSON: Was there to be a meeting?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, there was a meeting to be held about matters affecting the branch.

JUDGE WILSON: At the school?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, the were matters to be discussed there in the branch and the matter of the money that was missing, was  to be discussed as well.

JUDGE WILSON: Where was the meeting to be held?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: In the school.

JUDGE WILSON: Because you told the court at your trial that you ran straight to the school, didn't you?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: What the TRC must observe is that what we said in court was not the truth, but it was said in defence.

CHAIRPERSON: After the shooting did all three of you leave together?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you all went to L Section?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, all three of us.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you think it was that a child got killed, how did that happen?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: It was just a pure coincidence but we did expect some people to be caught in the cross-fire but when we shot this gentleman we did not realise that there were children around, but we were not aiming at the child.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is the cross-fire that you are talking about?