Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore as it stands here, you are today correcting it, that he did not persuade you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he never persuaded me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, try and confine yourself only to questions which are put to you.  If you don't understand a question, tell us and we will repeat it.  If you think it's difficult we'll try and simplify it for you.  Do you understand?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Ntshetha, just to clarify something, your brother was an IFP Councillor, what party did you support, or what party were you a member of?

CHAIRPERSON: He was not a member of any political organisation at the time, he only became a member of a particular organisation when he joined Mdo Dlamini and Sepo Nduli.  Hasn't that evidence been covered, Mr Panday and won't you just get to the real crux of the issue?

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, you said that after Mdo's death you were made the leader, now what was Mdo's position or function in the group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It is difficult for me to say but Mdo was just a member, an ordinary member because he was not in the leadership.  The people who were in the leadership were working together, those were the two people, Basil and Moses.

CHAIRPERSON: What position do they in fact occupy, Basil and Moses?  We've already heard that they jointly led your community, what position did they in fact occupy as leaders?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He was Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was a Commander?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Commander was Basil Ngwenye and he had his assistant as Moses.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you became elected, what position were in you fact elected to, or appointed to?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I was appointed to a position of commanding in a lot of things, solving the problems, problems that they were facing at the time and I had to solve those problems in a proper manner.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've already alluded to some of the problems and the problems that you've been able to give testimony to related to the disputes around the use of cigarettes, conventional and otherwise, meaning cigarettes and dagga.  What other problems fell within your domain as a Commander?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Problems like when the people from the outside were coming to attack because they wanted to get into our area by force and they wanted to chase us away or shoot us because they wouldn't use sticks to make us leave the area, they would even try and kill us because we wouldn't just leave our area where we had our houses in just like that.  Therefore, I was in a position to defend the community and I would make sure that we don't go there and start problems in their own area, we would just stay in our own place, go out and work and come back, but if those people would leave their own place and come and get into our area forcefully, build their houses, whatever weapons that we would be having at the time, we had to use it and I was even prepared to stand up for that in court, because those were the people who were coming to start the problem, not us.

CHAIRPERSON: Now during your period of command, as it were, how many attacks were launched by people outside your area to members of your community in an attempt to get them to leave your area?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: About two attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: During the first attack, they fired and I told my people to run away.  I said "You should run away", because they were more than us and I would later find a plan to deal with them.  We went to sleep in the forest until the morning, the next morning and then the following morning at about 2 a.m. I wanted everyone to camp and I told them to camp, knowing very well that they were actually more than us and I was sure about one thing, that they were not going to tell themselves that we would be able to hit them, because they knew that they were actually attacking a small number of people, they would assume that we would not confront them because they were more than us.  That is when we decided to confront them.
	At about 2 a.m., I instructed my people to get out and we went straight there and we knew that everyone was free - fast asleep, they had forgotten about the attacks that they had launched to us.  I went there and the area was about a steep slope and there was a freeway on the other side and on the other side of the road there was the sea and on the other side there were houses.  I knew that most of the people who were leaders would be just at the beginning of the area.  They would be having their houses there and we knew that we would start there from where their leaders were and I scattered my people around and I knew that when we start firing there from the area where the leaders were, I knew that a person would be coming down the slope - would be coming up, would just run away, he won't come straight to where the firing was, they would just go down and that is exactly what happened when we got there.  
	We got to that place.  We started fighting there.  We injured those people to such an extent that in court only four of them survived.  The others who woke up from there, they ran straight to the freeway and they were knocked by cars as they were running.  We went back to our place.

ADV DE JAGER: How many people were killed that night?  How many did you shoot?  How many were killed by the cars?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: 9 people were knocked by cars, the other 4 were injured, those were the people who were just at the beginning of the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Without giving us sufficient details, you've now referred to the first attack.  Now when did this attack take place, do you know which year it was?  You came into the area February of 1990.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: This incident took place in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second attempt, when did it take place, the second attack?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: The second attack took place in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: When in 1992?  We are now dealing with an incident for which Mr Dlamini seeks amnesty, which happened September, October or November.  The second attack you are referring to, are you able to put a month period as to its occurrence?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was at the beginning of the year, 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, we are indebted to you.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Ntshetha, just to clarify a point, you mentioned that the people from outside were coming to attack.  Which people do you refer to?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am referring to people from Shayamoya.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, I am now going to take you to the day in 1992, where a person was killed.  Could you explain to this Committee what led to the death of this person?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.  This person was brought to my place, or sent to my place because my brother had already seen the first experience, our experience of retaliation and he also learned that among those people there was myself and also, I was the one making decision, the head of the group and he realised that I am the problem, myself being his brother and he decided to send this person to my house.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you thinking or assuming that your brother, knowing that you were now the leader of your group and the fact that he sent someone, it's sheer speculation?  It's not something that you know as a fact?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am speculating because there was his child as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm not concerned about that.  What I want to establish quite early as you relate to this incident, I want to distinguish between what is within your personal knowledge and what is mere speculation.  What you are alluding to now is speculation.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.  We are more, however, interested in facts than in speculation.