Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

MR LUBBE: ....(tape ends)

JUDGE WILSON: 18 is the first page of the "Nature and particulars".

MR LUBBE: Would you please just indicate to me the page how does it start on top?

JUDGE WILSON: "De Klerk treachery became more and more obvious".

MR LUBBE: I am sorry Mr Chairman I haven't got that, maybe if ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Well is it possible to argue this application if the papers are in such a mess.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I just want to bring this to the knowledge of the Committee.  The initial documents, as well as the applications submitted by the applicants were not paginated, it was just a bundle of papers, and I took it upon myself to do the pagination which I did, according to the bundles before the Committee members and I sent the applicants loose pages of my pagination and requested them to paginate their bundle according to my bundles, and in return thereof I got a letter from the applicants that they have arranged their own pagination and I must change my pagination according to their pagination.  Unfortunately, when they sent me their pagination my copies were already done and bound and sent off.  Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was that Mr Mpshe, when did they send you a list of their pagination?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I received it last week,  I've got it, it's in a fax form.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Lubbe why was there an omission on your part to send to the Truth Commission a paginated bundle of your applicants' application?  I mean taking into account that we are not dealing with just a minor matter, we are dealing with an application of importance, with a number of documents that are going to be referred to in your evidence.

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairperson we were informed on the 6th of June for the first time that the duty to paginate papers was upon the applicants, and on that date we received the index from Advocate Mpshe, only on that date.

JUDGE WILSON: But you didn't paginate in accordance with his index, your papers are still not paginated in accordance with that index.

MR LUBBE: With respect Mr Chairperson the document that was shown to me I can't even identify from my papers.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now can you proceed if you can't identify documents which will be referred to by both the victims' attorneys and the Truth Commission's leader of evidence?   I mean how are we expected to conduct these proceedings when there is no consistency in such pagination?

MR LUBBE: Well it seems obvious to me Mr Chairperson that whatever the case is that if the matter is to proceed we should see to it that the papers be properly paginated.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But if you have not been able to do that within a week that Mr Mpshe gave you his paginated list how can you be able to do that in a few hours now?

MR LUBBE: No, no, we have paginated our papers according to the list.  We have got, what you are referring to as paragraph 9(iv) of the application also starts off in the very same manner as the Committee's paper starts, but it seems to me that the difference is page 3 or 4 of 9(iv).

JUDGE WILSON: But this is your application papers, prepared by you.  This is annexed to the application.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Lubbe I must say I am actually lost.  You are making a reference, you are alluding to page 4, I don't have page 4, it's page 5 which is in front of me.

MR LUBBE: No I didn't allude to page 4, I said that is paragraph 9(iv).

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't have that in my papers.

JUDGE WILSON: ...was attached to the application wasn't it, or should have been?

MR LUBBE: Would you allow me to present my papers to you so in order to see that 9(iv) is the Nature and Particulars, it starts off, page 16 starts off with "Nature and Particulars" after the speech of F W de Klerk.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's page 18 according to our documents.
NO RECORDING FOR SOME TIME

JUDGE WILSON: Your 9(iv) is completely different.  It seems to be completely different and I think Mr Bizos would accord with your 9(iv) where you say that,
"Mr Chris Hani, leader of the South African Communist Party and former MK Commander who was active in the ANC detention camps in Angola..."
the one we have got is completely different.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Lubbe are these the papers that you amended on behalf of Mr Walus and Mr Clive Derby-Lewis in December and January respectively?

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairperson yes, according to our information this was in fact the amended annexures that were sent.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And these are the amendments you are referring to in your letters that was only one page in the applications, in both applications which you amended?

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairperson according to my bundle then, Bundle A page 10, was the amendment effected to Mr Walus' application that was faxed on the 22nd of January this year, that is the amended page of the application for Mr Walus.

JUDGE WILSON: "I have been advised that I did not provide sufficient particulars etc...."

MR LUBBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We have listened quietly and this is the first time in many years before a case begins we don't even know what the papers are, and in what order they are and how we are going to proceed with this application at this stage.
I want to know whether it's possible for you to address us, or the rest of your argument to us for the time-being, whether there are other submissions you wish to make and your colleagues have to make, we would like to hear those?