Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-31

CHAIRPERSON: This is Thursday the 31st of July and it is the Amnesty application of Dumisani Mthembu, number 2618/96.  The members of the Committee are myself Andrew Wilson, Mrs Khampepe and Mr Potgieter.

MR WILLS: My name is John Wills, I act for the Applicant.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: J Mpshe for the Amnesty Committee.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I would like to apologize for the delay in the commencement of this hearing.  Basically what occurred was that there was a problem with the location of a second witness which we intended using this morning.  The driver of the vehicle arrived at the agreed meeting place at the correct time and many efforts were exercised to try and locate him.  Unfortunately these were fruitless and time wasting, as a result of which their journey from Sindumbele to here this morning was seriously delayed and they apologise profusely for inconveniencing the Committee in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for the explanation.  Carry on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I just want to put it on record that pertaining to the victims here, only one is present with us Mr J W van Schalkwyk.   The other four are not available, thank you Mr Chairperson.   ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: They've all had knowledge - been given notice of the hearing?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My information Mr Chairman, is that they have been informed in terms of the list and their ...(inaudible) thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman, prior to me calling the Applicant to testify, I would like to hand in certain documents which I intend using at the hearing.
	The first is a psychiatric report by a Doctor Angelo John Lashish which was done in December 1993.  
	The second document is a sketch plan of the house in question, that is house 1658 Sindumbele and an immediate vicinity house plan of the same house which was compiled as a result of an inspection in loco which I performed.

CHAIRPERSON: The report can be Exhibit A.  The larger scale - the area plan - Exhibit B and the Sketch Plan of the house - Exhibit C.
EXHIBITS A , B AND C HANDED IN

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   I call the Applicant.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mthembu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: (sworn states)

MR WILLS: Mr Mthembu, I'd like you to just realise that whilst you are giving evidence you must talk slowly because as you are giving evidence people are both writing down notes and the evidence you give is being translated, so just speak slowly while you're giving your evidence, thank you.
Mr Mthembu, where do you reside presently?

INTERPRETER: He didn't get that.

MR WILLS: Where do you live presently?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Answer not translated.

MR WILLS: At the time you made the affidavit in support of your application in December 1996 sorry, September 1996, were you living Sindumbele?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: During 1996 I was Sindumbele.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now you made an affidavit in support of your amnesty application on the 16th September 1996, do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I confirm that.

MR WILLS: You have been charged in the Impangeni Regional Court under Case number RC410 of 1992 in respect of counts relating to two counts of attempted murder, one count involving the illegal possession of a firearm and one count involving the illegal possession of ammunition, do you confirm that?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I confirm.

MR WILLS: And do you confirm that you are applying for amnesty in respect of those counts?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct.  I'm here to ask for amnesty in regard to those things.

MR WILLS: Now do you admit that on the day in question, i.e. the 2nd of September 1992, you had a Stetchkum/Makerhoff pistol in your possession?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct, I had it.

MR WILLS: Do you also admit that you had ammunition for this Stetchkum pistol also in your possession?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct, I had ammunition for that firearm.

MR WILLS: Now do you admit that on the date in question you were at the house of Mr Vincent Shandu at 1658 Sindumbele?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct, I was at Mr Shandu's place.

MR WILLS: What were you doing at Mr Shandu's place?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I used to stay there as a person who was guarding Mr Shandu during the violence.

MR WILLS: Who instructed you to guard Mr Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Instructions were given to me by my commander at that time.

MR WILLS: And do you remember the name of your commander?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do remember.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee the name of this commander?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: It is Msizi Mkunu.

MR WILLS: Now what political organisation does Mr Mkunu belong to?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He was an IFP member and also an MK soldier.  ANC and MK.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think there's been some mistake.  The witness said ANC.

MR WILLS: Thank you Committee member.  Now in order for you to perform your duties as a guard, you must have received some form of training, can you tell the Committee if you received such training and tell them where this training occurred.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was trained in Transkei to protect leaders of my organisation at that time at Sindumbele.

MR WILLS: Now what organisation do you belong to?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I am an ANC member.

MR WILLS: And when did you first join the ANC?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I became an ANC member in 1989.

MR WILLS: Now turning to the firearm, where did you get this firearm from?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I got the firearm from Msizi.

MR WILLS: Is this the person you referred to as Mr Msizi Mkunu who you referred to as your commander?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct, it's him.

MR WILLS: Now why was it necessary to have Cosatu members guarded at that particular time?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The reason was because there were rumours that leaders of the ANC were going to be attacked.  The violence had intensified and many leaders were killed at Mandene at Sindumbele.

MR WILLS: Now referring to Mr Shandu, what leader was he?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He was an ANC leader and also a Cosatu leader.

MR WILLS: Is it correct that at the time he was in fact the Regional Chairperson of Cosatu in the Northern Natal region?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now can you remember anybody who was killed in that area around the time that you were guarding Mr Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The person who got killed was Ken Shandu.

MR WILLS: How was he killed?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He was attacked and hit by a petrol bomb and they also shot him.

MR WILLS: And was this Ken Shandu actually the brother of Vincent Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now I'm going to turn now to the incident in question, that is the events that occurred in the early hours of the morning of the 2nd of September 1992.  You said you were in Mr Shandu's house at that stage, is that correct?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I was in Mr Shandu's house at that time.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what, how you were woken up and what happened immediately thereafter.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I woke up when I heard gunshots in the house - we were surprised - I woke up and entered the passage of the house and we were being shot at and I fired shots back to the people who were shooting at us.  After that Mr Shandu called out asking what's happening, who are shooting at us?  They shouted back saying we are the police.

MR WILLS: Okay, when you - you said you were woken up by shots being fired, at that stage did you know who the people were outside who were shooting at you?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: In my mind I thought those were the people who attacked our place,  I didn't think it would be police who were shooting at us.

MR WILLS: Then what did you do?  You said you fired some shots, can you remember how many shots you fired?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: If I remember well I shot three times.

MR WILLS: And did you shoot with the weapon that you referred to earlier, i.e. the Stetchkum pistol?