Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I was the one who gave them the instruction to pick him up, because I was standing guard - doing guard duties at the chief's house.

MR LAX: Did you say anything to him before you killed him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Although I do not remember correctly, because I did not record these things.

DR TSOTSI: What is his reply to the question, whether he put any question to him before he killed him?

INTERPRETER: He said he doesn't remember, because he wasn't recording these things.

MR MATTHEWS: According to this affidavit, you say that this boy was one who was spying on you and wanted to know how you camped?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I think that's what I heard from other IFP members.

MR MATTHEWS: These seven IFP youths that you say were murdered at Hopewell, how long before this incident did that murder take place?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, a year must have elapsed, and no-one was arrested for the incident.

MR MATTHEWS: And you shot this unknown male with a 9mm pistol?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Why did you shoot him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I regarded him as a danger, because he had information on how we camped and would be responsible for attacks on us, I decided that I should eliminate him for that reason.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by "how we camped"?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: From the information that I received, he had been around at the Thenza's Kraal for a few days.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean that he knew where you were staying?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, he knew that we were at the chief's house, Chief Nenemdaba Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how many people, how many of you were at the chief's house who did not normally live there?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I can just mention the people that we used to do guard duties with.  There were four of us altogether.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was the chief?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Nenemdaba Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: And who were the four people doing guard duty there?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I was the first one, Nkosi Mkhize was the second person, then Skubuzo, Skubuzo Mkhize and Sma Ndlovo.

MR LAX: Sma who, what was his surname?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Ndlovo.

MR LAX: Ndlovo?   Thank you.

MR MATTHEWS: Now this specific incident you were never arrested for or charged, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is true.

MR MATTHEWS: And the knowledge about this killing had remained among you who were present, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, there were others who had witnessed the incident, but they had not had firearms on them.

MR MATTHEWS: And you are asking that you receive amnesty for this killing?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.

MR MATTHEWS: The second incident that you were ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, did somebody come looking for him, a Mrs Thenza?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.  A certain woman from Mr Ntobontobo's house.

MR LAX: Can you just spell that first name for us, I didn't hear it properly?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Sorry.    She's  N T O B O N T O B O.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she say anything about him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, she came looking for him and I told her that he had actually run away into the forest.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she say about him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think she said that he had come looking for traditional herbs, because he was not well.

MR LAX: Why was she looking for him?   Was she a relative of his or what was the ...(intervention).

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I do not have any knowledge about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well had he been taken from her kraal?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, he had been taken from her kraal.

MR MATTHEWS: According to your affidavit, the IFP supporters who were present, attempted to attack her also, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I was the only one who shot him with a single shot.

MR MATTHEWS: Yes, I don't think you understand.   This Mrs Thenza who came to look for the deceased, did anybody attempt to attack her?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I don't remember anybody trying to attack her, because she was in mourning cloth and it's our tradition that you should respect somebody who is wearing that traditional gear.

MR MATTHEWS: The second incident you applied for amnesty for is the abduction and the murder of a male youth from Montwega during 1993.   Do you recall this incident?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes I do.

MR MATTHEWS: According to your affidavit, your commander, one Beki Mkhize ordered you to go and abduct this young male?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: And that you were armed with a .38 revolver and a person who went with you, who was unknown to you, with a 9mm pistol?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Why were you to abduct this specific person?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: As we were being attacked, we were not aware that he had been present spying on us when we actually went on our camps.   We later discovered that he was actually one of the ANC spies.

MR MATTHEWS: So, in other words, you were ordered to go and abduct him because you were informed by your commander that he was an ANC spy?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, he was a spy, because he had never been with us at our camps, but he had just come to check how we conduct the camps or what we do at the camps.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that he was supposed to be a spy when you went to fetch him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: When I went to fetch him, I was under the impression that I was actually going to pick up a prominent ANC member.

MR LAX: How did you arrive at that impression?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: When I hear that there's an ANC member in the area, I should go investigate because I was aware that they carry dangerous firearms.

MR LAX: You spoke about a prominent ANC member, you said you were going to go and fetch a prominent ANC member, how did you know he was prominent, or are you just making this up, because was any ANC member prominent to you or important?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: All the ANC killers who were responsible for attacking the IFP, I regarded them as prominent, because they are those who were hitting us.

CHAIRPERSON: You referred to a certain Beki Mkhize as your commander.   Why was he your commander?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He was a commander of not only myself, but of everybody, the four of us who were actually guarding that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also there guarding that place?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He would just come to check on how we're doing and thereafter leave.   I am also alive just for his sake, because even today I would have long been dead if it weren't for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, you've told us you went and fetched this person?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Then we went to a donga, and that is where I actually shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The problem was that he was an ANC member.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you shoot all ANC members?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, as far as I'm concerned, I dislike them, if I saw them, I actually shot at them, I hated the ANC.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you regard yourself as being at war with the ANC?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, they were very violent, they would actually attack elderly people and children, not only the people that they were fighting with.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was this policy your policy or was it the policy of the IFP, to shoot them if they saw them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The IFP always preaches peace, this was my own initiative, because I realised that we were actually being eliminated in the area and were not receiving any assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was contrary to what you knew IFP policy to be?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I think that's what I would say, because I was actually defending the IFP area, but it is not something that came from the IFP president.