Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We welcome you very warmly to this, the last day, of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
 I just want to express to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela our concern about the bomb scare last night, and hope that the arrangements that were made will ensure that nothing happens that is untoward. 
 May I also again just appeal to those of you who are smokers, don't smoke anywhere in this building.  It is a smoke free zone.  If you want to smoke, smoke outside of the building itself.  We would be most grateful if you could do that.
 I now call Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to the witness stand.  We have to have a briefer please, thank you.
 Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, welcome and thank you for having been here all this time.  Are you going to testify in English or Xhosa or any other language?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In English.

WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  Ma'am, we have heard over the past eight days, that in the past eight odd years, there have been rumours about your complicity in human right abuse cases.
 We have heard over the period that there have been smear campaigns associating you with these things.  We have heard about impressions which people have held about you in association with these human right abuses.  We have heard over the past eight days that over the eight years odd, there have been beliefs about your association in these things.  We have sat over the eight years, and listened to hearsay evidence linking you to these things.  
 We have over the past eight years, also had statements from deceased persons that seek to associate you with these human right violation cases.
 We have heard over the past eight years allegations which have been levelled against you.  We have also heard facts of assaults that have been inflicted on some of the victims.  We have also heard facts about the deaths of various people.  We have heard over the past eight days various conspiracies that have been wound up around these issues and we have seen over the past eight days, even newspaper headlines, today being the last day of the hearing, that you are a police informer.  
 I think the rest of the country and the world perhaps, has waited for an opportunity that you meet all these allegations and I hope to take you through various aspects of it.  My professional judgement though is that we may not be able to meet each and every such allegation and or rumour and meet it adequately, but it would be incumbent on us to address main areas that have arisen during the past eight days.
 Can I then draw your attention to the first area which is the four young men who were staying at the Methodist manse.  When do you for the first time meet Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My recollection is that I met Cebekhulu for the first time on the 29th of December.

MR SEMENYA: What were the circumstances?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The circumstances were that I was informed by Falati that there was a sick young boy who was in the manse in the care of Rev Paul Verryn and that this boy was claiming that he had been sodomised.
 Falati stated that she doubted his state of mind, because he was sitting at the doorstep of the bedroom and he was threatening to assault Rev Paul Verryn.

MR SEMENYA: At that time, how long had you known Mrs Xoliswa Falati?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think I had known her for a few months when she came over to me to ask for help.

MR SEMENYA: What was your understanding of her in terms of the politics of the day?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not know her before.  She came to me and informed me that her house had been bombed in the East Rand and she was with her daughter.  She said I should please assist her with placing her daughter in school and that she herself had no place to stay.

MR SEMENYA: Did you place the daughter in school?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did.  I placed the daughter in school in Orlando East.

MR SEMENYA: On the day of the 29th of December 1988, was Katiza brought to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, she brought Katiza to me.

MR SEMENYA: And what did you do with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I took Katiza to Dr Asvat.

MR SEMENYA: Why?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Because I wanted to check firstly his state of mind, and the allegation he was making.  I didn't know to what extent it had affected him.

MR SEMENYA: Maybe let us confront the problem at this moment.  Katiza in the book said that there was a conspiracy that you and him would then frame Bishop Verryn with allegations of sodomy.  What is your response?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, that was a ridiculous accusation on his part.  At that stage I hardly knew Rev Paul Verryn and I don't even recollect exactly when I met him.

MR SEMENYA: And I think the evidence is common cause, you then took Katiza to Dr Asvat.  Was he examined?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he was examined.

MR SEMENYA: Did you take Katiza to Dr Asvat again?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, there was no need to take him back again.  Dr Asvat stated that specialists were away and that he would make an appointment around January, because it was the end of the year, December.

MR SEMENYA: If you had conspired with Katiza to fabricate a lie, would you have taken Katiza to the Doctor?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR SEMENYA: If you had conspired with Katiza to fabricate this story, would you then have taken Katiza to see a Medical Practitioner?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There would be no logic in that at all.  We didn't need Dr Asvat's opinion for a formulated lie.

MR SEMENYA: And later in the day came the other young men, Mekgwe, Thabiso Mono and the others.  Did you send for these boys, or young men rather?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, whilst I was away at Dr Asvat's surgery, Falati advised me on my way back, that she had sent for the rest of the boys, because she believed that they were similarly affected.  I hardly knew the  ages of those boys and I have no problem at all with the kind of life Rev Paul Verryn was alleged to lead by Falati.
 I have  no problem with two consenting adults engaging in that kind of life, but I had a problem when I was told that there were these children who had gone to seek refuge at the manse, and they were exposed to that.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know that the young men were removed from the manse forcibly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.  Falati told me that she went to fetch them to protect them and if I recollect well, actually she was going to try and place them elsewhere if this had been confirmed by her.

MR SEMENYA: Did you have occasion to get the version from these young men about this allegations?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.  There was no need for me to do that.  The reason why they took the bus was in fact because I was using the kombi and on my way back, I was to deposit Falati and Katiza and proceed to Brandfort.

MR SEMENYA: What car were you using at that time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was using my kombi.

MR SEMENYA: Was the Audi around that time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I think I had lost the Audi about three or four years back.

MR SEMENYA: Now, in some brief format, we know now that the young men were assaulted by Richardson and the others.  Did you witness any of this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: Did you see any injuries on the young men?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: Was there a point at which you gained a view or an impression that the young men staying at your house, were staying there under some cohesion?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all, until there were rumours to the effect that there were boys who were forcibly kept in my house.