Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect, could we have a bit more detail, who were the parties to this agreement?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll get that.

MS QUNTA: The seller in this Deed of Sale, for the record, is a person called Cyprian Charles Richards from the Vineyard, Harris Row, Eden Glen.  I have no idea where Eden Glen is.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us the relevant particulars, what are they?

MS QUNTA: Of the seller Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: No of the property.

MS QUNTA: Oh yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The purchase price?

MS QUNTA: The purchase price ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How payment is to be made.

MS QUNTA: Purchase price is R250 000.  The erf number is 119105.  The condition is that R15 000 is supposed to be paid within seven days of acceptance of the offer, so I presume on the 7th of January.  And possession was to be given on the 1st of April 1997.  I am not quite sure, I can't see on here who the attorneys are, the transferring attorneys, but could I proceed with my questioning?
	Mr Sibaya why did you purchase this house, why did you want to purchase this house?

MR SIBAYA: I did not want the previous house but when I realised that this one was costly or very expensive I left it.

MS QUNTA: Which previous house are you referring to?

MR SIBAYA: The one that my boss had bought for me initially.

MS QUNTA: So in fact you had that other house, you were not happy with it, and you then decided to purchase this one?

MR SIBAYA: Yes I wanted to sell the original house then when I realised that this was not going to work I left it at that.

MS QUNTA: Did you sell the previous house your boss bought you?

MR SIBAYA: I did not sell it.  There was a discrepancy in the prices.  I could not have sold it on my own.

MS QUNTA: What was the price of the previous house?

MR SIBAYA: The original was worth between R160 000 and R180 000, the other one was worth more than that.

MS QUNTA: But when I asked you earlier what the price of the house was you told me that you don't recall, or you don't know, but you've remembered just now.

MR SIBAYA: Well I am talking about the value of the house right now, at the moment, I did not buy this house myself.

MS QUNTA: Now - so at the moment you have two houses then?

MR SIBAYA: Where?  I did not end up taking the second house.

MS QUNTA: Oh, okay.  And why didn't you - because you were not happy with the price?

MR SIBAYA: The second house was too expensive.

MS QUNTA: Mr, are you sure that the purchase of this house was going to be - the Deed of Sale that we are referring to now, let's call it the second house, the money for the second house was it going to come only from the sale of the first house?

MR SIBAYA: Yes that is how it was going to go.

MS QUNTA: And you had no additional finance?

MR SIBAYA: I do not have.

MS QUNTA: Now if the first house was not in your name how were you going to sell it?

MR SIBAYA: That was the problem.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter did not understand what the witness was saying.

MR SIBAYA: I was not aware that I could not sell it because it was not in my name even though the house belonged to me.  That was the problem.

MS QUNTA: Was that now the problem with the sale of the house?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya you seem to make things up as you go along.  You didn't raise that earlier as a problem.  In any case what I would like to put to you is do you know ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation.  You may proceed Ma'am.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya my instructions are that you paid an amount of R15 000 deposit on this property.  Do you deny that ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation.

MR SIBAYA: I did not end up paying the R15 000.  I did not pay this R15 000, I only paid R5 000 for the plan and I lost that R5 000.  However I did not pay the R15 000.

MS QUNTA: Those are my instructions Mr Sibaya.  Now do you know a person called Mr Levy?  Do you recall a person by the name of Mr Levy?

MR SIBAYA: Where, from where, I don't know him?

MS QUNTA: He is an estate agent, those are my instructions.

MR SIBAYA: Where, from where?

MS QUNTA: In Cape Town.

MR SIBAYA: Won't you elaborate, perhaps I've forgotten him.

MS QUNTA: He's the gentleman, my instructions are that you showed him in January 1996 or it could have been in December 1996 you showed him a deposit slip for an amount of R325 000 in Standard Bank, deposit slip with a proper bank stamp, and informed him that that deposit will mature on the 15th of January 1996.  It was a fixed deposit.  Do you recall that?

MR SIBAYA: No I do not recall that, no.  I could not sell the first house this is why I did not buy the second house.

MS QUNTA: So you never showed a Mr - as far as you are concerned you never showed a Mr Levy a deposit slip of      R325 000?

MR SIBAYA: No.

MS QUNTA: Well those are my instructions and they come directly from Mr Levy.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have a deposit account, sorry not a deposit, did you have a savings account of any sort with the Standard Bank? ...(intervention)

MS QUNTA: ...those are my instructions.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation.  Could the witness repeat the answer.

JUDGE WILSON: I will repeat the question.  Did you have a savings account or any similar account at the Standard Bank, Claremont?

MR SIBAYA: The mistake is such - there was a mistake, there was such a mistake around January or February, Nokaya Sibaya from - my ex-wife and I ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer from the beginning please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR SIBAYA: Such a mistake did occur.  Nokaya, my uncle's wife I got a slip that I have money in the bank, I went to the bank and apparently there was an error, an administrative error within the bank, then I had about      R40 000 in the bank but they had confused our names, our first names.

MS QUNTA: So in fact you misled Mr Levy when you showed him the deposit slip for R320 000?

MR SIBAYA: I have never had such an amount of money, it was my uncle's wife that had that amount in the bank.

MS QUNTA: And what is her name, because we would like to check with the bank Mr Sibaya, what is her name?

MR SIBAYA: She died, she passed away, Priscilla Nokaya Sibaya.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, it appears in this whole matter all the people who could give us information to support what you say are dead.  Superintendent Segal is dead, this person is dead, Mazibuko is dead, is it convenient or is it - are you making it up as you go along?

MR SIBAYA: Am I making what up?

MS QUNTA: Everything.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, we don't know at this stage what the relevance of this questioning is.  I can confirm independently Mazibuko was murdered.  There is a docket still open. I don't know about the witness Priscilla Sibaya, but Lt Colonel Segal died, it was publicised, he died in a motor accident earlier this year, so I think my learned friend is unfair when she suggests to this witness that he is making these things up as he goes along.  I think it creates the wrong impression at this hearing that this witness is fabricating and I would ask for a ruling with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a point well taken.  That suggestion about all the relevant witnesses have died is something which you should just leave and move on with the next line of questioning.

MS QUNTA: Yes if I could just ask now this question, you say you only had R40 000 in the bank, is that correct?  Is that what the witness said, the witness said he had 40 000 in the bank, not 325 000?  You said that?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: Where did you get that 40 000 from?

MR SIBAYA: I had worked for the money.

MS QUNTA: But you have just told us you earned 1 000 a month, how could you have savings of 40 000 on 1 000 a month, and that 1 000 is only recently?

MR SIBAYA: I had saved the money over a period of time.