Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-12

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I agree with what you are saying, but I didn't do it.

CHAIRPERSON: So the "pre-study" was then just information that you received from Peaches?  Was Isgak, what is his name, was his involved at all?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, it was Peaches, not Isgak.

CHAIRPERSON: But I mean was Isgak involved at all?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at any stage?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you just relied on information received from Peaches and put that in your written submission?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Without even looking at the place?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR LAX: Sorry, before you do, may I just follow up something.  You say here that
"... I also heard later that the printing press was never burnt down?"

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: There is nothing there to say that it did not exist?  You just simply say here that it was never burnt down, where does this additional information come from now, that it didn't ever exist, in addition to never having burnt out?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: This was information that I gathered in time from Gakkie, that the place did not exist and accordingly nothing was burnt out.

MR LAX: So was this now Gakkie telling you that Peaches had in fact betrayed you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: If the place didn't ever exist, surely that would have been the reason you would have put there, not that it had never been burnt out?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It might be, if one looks at it technically, but these statements were made many years ago.  It was made in co-operation with my legal representatives and one could possibly, from a legal technical point of view,  prove other aspects incorrect if you really want to, but this is the way we put it at that stage, and my evidence I am giving you today, are the true facts.

MR LAX: You see, it is not about, with me it is not about legal technicalities at all, it is just about plain language.
	If a place didn't exist, you would have simply said "it couldn't have been burnt down, because it didn't even exist."  Inferring from the fact that it was never burnt down, is an implicit assumption in your mind, that it still existed, but it just wasn't burnt down?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The information that I had received from Gakkie at a later stage is that the place did not exist.
	I do not know.  I mean I have told you, I cannot qualify myself in any other way.

MR LAX: Fair enough.  Thank you Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, this statement was drafted by Senior Counsel, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I would venture to say it is probably the most important statement you ever were asked to put your signature to in your whole life?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When did you discover, first discover that  you had been cheated of this R2 000-00?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Regarding this project?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It must have been in the region of about July or August 1989.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, was Joe Verster present at the "in-house" where the presentation was made about this project?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He makes no mention in his statement of ever having been present at an "in-house" where this project was discussed, can you comment?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot comment on this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Also to explain to the Commission the context in which this statement was made, certain documents were in fact obtained by the Harms Commission with figures on them, reflecting a budget, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were asked by the Harms Commission to explain the meaning of those figures?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, in explaining how money had been spent, let's assume for argument's sake that you have pocketed certain of those funds and that the projects that you are referring to, never existed, they were invented in order to obtain money from your superiors, you in fact kept money and you never gave it to Peaches or Ismail and when asked to explain where this money had gone to, you decided to blame what had happened, on theft by these gangsters, what do you have to say about that theory?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think in practice, I do not know if such a theory is possible as a result of the systems applicable within the CCB, but in as far as it was applicable on my project, it was definitely not the case.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see Mr van Zyl, what is worrying me is you have already testified that you are a fastidious person, a very proud person?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: An efficient person, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You would not likely, lightly accept being cheated by some "skollies" on the Cape Flats?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I agree.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And Mr Verster would certainly not lightly accept being cheated in a similar fashion?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, this notwithstanding you take no steps whatsoever to try and recover the money from these alleged criminals?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Moreover you are working with a group of people, Peaches, Gakkie, Ismail, all friends, all closely connected, even after they cheat you, you carry on working with them, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct Mr Chairperson.  I might just mention that Ismail's services were not used again after the bus incident.  Peaches, I started suspecting Peaches and this is also why at a stage I involved Ferdi in the monitoring project of Dullah Omar.  So I could have done a lot more probably in hindsight, but I didn't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you go and tell Mr Staal Burger at the time "Mr Burger, I am sorry to say we have been cheated, the money has been lost, what do you as my immediate superior want me to do about this"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot remember it, I possibly did it.  Maybe I didn't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I would like you to think carefully about that, because I think Mr Burger is going to say that the first time that he heard about these things, was at the Harms Commission.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That he heard about what?

MR KAHANOVITZ: About these projects that Mr van Zyl had been involved in where the money had been stolen from the CCB.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I would deny it if he made such a statement.  As Regional Manager, he was part of the first "in-house" process, so he cannot deny it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But one thing that has been emphasised throughout was that "we were very, very careful with our money, there were budgets for everything, everything got audited, no funny business".

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How is it possible then in that context that you could be in any doubt whatsoever about having gone to report to your superiors about money that had been spent in return for nothing?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: As I said, I possibly mentioned it to him, maybe I didn't.  I really cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report back to your superiors that fact that neither the bus, nor the printing press were burnt as ordered?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, indeed I reported back to them in writing that the bus had been burnt out, and that the printing press had been burnt down, because that was the initial information that I had received from the operators who were involved with this.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you received the information that you had been hoodwinked, did you report that fact to your superiors?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that, I possibly did it.  Maybe I forgot to do it.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one small thing.  Why did you carry on working with Peaches?  You have told us you did not carry on working with Ismail when you realised he cheated you, why did you carry on working with Peaches, even though you realised he cheated you?