Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

MR NEL: Likewise that is the case for the members that I represent, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, neither will I be calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Now over to you, Mr Mpshe.

MR MCHUNU: Mr Chairman, even before Mr Mpshe, I think the applicant wants to say something to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like a five minute adjournment or a short adjournment?

MR MCHUNU: If I may just approach him now.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR MCHUNU: I'm indebted to you Chairperson and Members of the Commission.  The applicant would like to have an opportunity to apologise to the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Would he like to do it from he is now?

MR MCHUNU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Gwamanda?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson.  I would like to apologise to the victims.  What I did was not done in malice and therefore I ask for their forgiveness.

MR MCHUNU: Is that all?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, that is all.  I just ask for their forgiveness, I did not mean them harm.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Gwamanda.  Thank you, Mr Mchunu.  Mr Mpshe?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I was going to, on the question of argument, Mr Chairman, I'm not calling any victims.  They are in here, I've consulted with them, they are satisfied with the version.  	On the question of the argument, Mr Chairman, I was going to test the legal waters but it would seem they are too hot for me to touch.  I was going to suggest that we reserve this matter for argument on Thursday so that we start with the next matter that is waiting, but it would seem my other friends do have a problem.  	The lawyer for the applicant is available for Thursday morning at 08H30 to argue.  Mr Patrick has got some commitments.  I don't know about the other gentlemen, if the Chair could find that out.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not possible to argue today while things are still hot?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If the Chair and Members of the Committee will still start with the matter that is awaiting us, the Ndlovu matter, he is still here.  We've arranged with the prison and staff.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think we can fit in both argument and start with that one because I see it's already five to four and the argument I should imagine with, I don't know how many sets of argument but probably up to five will take more than just a few minutes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you.  If they are ready to do that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what is the attitude of Mr Mukadam, Mr Nel, Mr Falconer and Mr Mchunu, with regard to argument.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, my argument in this regard will not really be in-depth or anything or the sort, purely with regard to my client's interest in this matter and what has come out.  So it's purely a question of whether they will be an opposing the application or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, are you in a position to ...

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, yes, I am totally in the Chair's hands if you would like us to argue this afternoon I would just ask for a short adjournment however it might be that I will ask for an extended on and maybe not argue this afternoon, I'll just have to take instructions Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Mr Chairman, I'm ready to dispose of the matter this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be preferable, Mr Mpshe, if we could dispose of it, it's always easier.  It's even easier for the legal representatives in a sense to give argument immediately afterwards than to have to go and prepare and come and argue later.
	It's unfortunate about the other matter but I think we'd prefer to finish this one, at least with the argument, then we'll reserve our decision with the view of giving a decision as soon as possible but rather than having it part-heard and then the legal representatives having difficulty and not all being here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I agree, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we then just take a short adjournment?  If you could please let us know as soon as you're ready to proceed, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I'm told that the legal representatives would prefer to argue the matter on Friday, is that correct?

MR MUKADAM: That's the majority's view.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  And that it would be at 08H30 Friday morning?

MR MUKADAM: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we will then postpone this matter until 08H30.  The reason why I came to do it in the court here was that I thought there would be other members of the family etc., who would want to know, who might have an interest in coming to hear but I see they're coming in now, so if you could just wait for a few seconds.
	For those persons who have just entered the premises, we've been informed that the legal representatives require some more time, would prefer to have some more time to prepare their submissions that they're going to make to this panel and that it had been agreed between them and we as a panel do not have any problems with that, that the matter be argued on Friday morning ad 08H30 in the morning at this same venue.  The matter is then accordingly postponed to Friday morning at 08H30.  The date on Friday will be the 23rd of October 1998, at 08H30 in the morning.  It will just be for the reception of submissions at that period.  I should imagine that the decision in the matter will be reserved so that we can digest the learned argument that we will be receiving and we won't just give an ex tempore decision.  So the matter is then postponed to Friday, 23rd October at 08H30 for argument.  Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS