Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, that is really a matter for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: She can't say that she didn't make mention, she says that the statement does not record it.  The Attorneys may have thought that it may not be relevant for that matter, but at any rate she admits that on the statement there is no reference.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, you said she never said it, but did she give evidence at the inquest?

UNKNOWN: A statement was handed in.

JUDGE WILSON: A statement, but she never gave evidence, that is what I am asking?  She never gave evidence, so she - it is not a question of not saying anything at the inquest?

UNKNOWN: Yes, but certainly My Lord, her Attorney or her Advocate  if he ...

JUDGE WILSON: It is just the word said that I am querying, you said it was not said by her.  She didn't say anything at the inquest, no.

UNKNOWN: No, mentioned.  I am trying to indicate that she didn't mention it in her statement, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Admitted that it doesn't appear in the statement.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Okay, I have no further questions for her but I just want to put on record, you know about the incidents regarding the verbal abuse directed at myself and my client which was placed on record yesterday and the fact that the family made certain remarks to my client.
	My client of his own accord went to the seven victims and shook their hands and I asked Mr Papier to tell the family that my client wanted to speak to them and he said that he would discuss it with them, but that the emotions were still running too high.
	The impression created here, and I want to place that on record, is that my client was quite prepared to do that but due to the emotional factors, it did not actually happen.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV COOK

ADV DE JAGER: I would like to warn that one shouldn't in  a place like this where emotions run high, try and pursue reconciliation and achieve that.
	I think the difficult moment and painful moments that are being relived here, and I think that some of the people involved in Reparation and Rehabilitation etc, that reconciliation is something which comes with time, it cannot be forced on people, and legal representatives must please bear that in mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, you were about to make a comment.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Honourable Chair, I was just about to confirm that I was approached at this forum, informed that the applicant wants to approach the families - it was 11 years later and I confirm that I am sure that the family would be happy to speak with him after the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MS INTHANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS INTHANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Mr Cook are you going to hand the statement in as an Exhibit?

UNKNOWN: I will reconsider my position and in all probability I will hand in the whole inquest later on.

JUDGE WILSON: But you have put a statement to this witness, you have asked her to confirm the correctness of it, the signature and what have you, you have already made comments on the contents, don't you think it is only fair that we should see the statement?

UNKNOWN: I just want to state, this statement can go in at this stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: But the rest of the inquest, I will reconsider my position.

JUDGE WILSON: I am only referring to this statement, that you said copies were being made for us in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, there they are.  May I just ask you a question about your statement, in paragraph 10, you make mention of a name Himtias Ismail, as being the person who was present at the house, do you recall that?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I only afterwards now, I realise that I do remember.  We came to the house and then we met this women there and I think, he came afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Himtias seems to be, it is the name of a male.

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes, when we came out, when we left the house, we found him there.

JUDGE WILSON: Because this statement, as I understood from your evidence in chief, your brother was shot on the  9th of July and on the 10th of July, you were visited by the police and that evening, that is the evening of the 10th of July, you went to the house?  Is that correct?

MICHELLE ASHUA: It was on the evening of the 10th.

JUDGE WILSON: Evening of the 10th?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Because this statement refers to a visit to the house on the 11th of July, the next day.   Did you go there again the next day with your sister, your husband and a friend, Robert Adams?

CHAIRPERSON: Have a look at this document, maybe it might assist you to answer the question.  Just pass this on to her.

ADV DE JAGER: Mrs Ashua, we have already mentioned.  You don't discuss the matter with your sister while answering the question, it could create a wrong impression.

CHAIRPERSON: We are just trying to clear up, your brother was killed on the 9th.  That statement in that paragraph says that you went to the house on the 11th?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I just recall, we actually went there to the house to go and get his personal belongings and with this whole, this terrible scene that we saw at the house, I think, we just left with the blood stained clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is the date that we are concerned about.

MICHELLE ASHUA: And that is why we went back the next day to go and fetch his other belongings.

JUDGE WILSON: So this statement doesn't mention the visit on the 10th of July at all?

MICHELLE ASHUA: No, it doesn't.

JUDGE WILSON: But who told you that your brother had personal belongings at the house?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I assumed that seeing that he was staying at this house, he should - surely his personal belongings would have been there Your Honour.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, who told you he was staying there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I got this address at the mortuary Your Honour.

JUDGE WILSON: They said that is where the body had come from?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Well, I assumed that he was shot at that house and that was where he was living, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: What work did your brother do?

MICHELLE ASHUA: My brother was a matriculant.

CHAIRPERSON: He was a matriculant at the time?

MICHELLE ASHUA: At the time when he left and he didn't complete his matric due to police harassment he had to leave.  In fact he left, we weren't aware of where he had gone to and as I am saying, after two years and in fact during that two years, we never had a word or a letter or a phone call, no contact whatsoever with him until the day I had to go and identify him as a corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, thank you very much.

JUDGE WILSON: Exhibit C?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  This affidavit will go in as Exhibit C.

WITNESS HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT C: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are you calling any other witness?

MR PAPIER: That is all our witnesses, thank you Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are about to adjourn now.  We will take the short adjournment and we will resume in 15 minutes.  During that time, if your clients wish to observe silence and to sing the Anthem, they may do so.  We will adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR 15 MINUTES
ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: Did she say what colour shirt she took from the bathroom?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS INTHANGA: Thank you Chairman.  I would like to call Senior Superintendent Jeremy Vearey to take stand Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vearey is it your intention to give evidence or have you come here to make a statement?

MR VEAREY: It is my intention to make a statement regarding my name being mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

MR VEAREY: Jeremy Allan Vearey.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Vearey?