Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-23

ADV MOTATA: If perceptions that obtained even from hearsay the previous day and we have regard to the history of Bophuthatswana, that during 1988 there was this attempted coup and we look at the progressive history of our country today that for instance, negotiations were in process and concluded even then that the following month there would be elections, and then we have this person who says I have a country and this person says, I am not going to be part of that, is it within him or the people who should decide where to go, and we say then again, we look at the people brought in by him to defend that kind of situation.
	Let's be honest to ourselves and say let's examine the utterances of the AWB in respect of that process.  They were unpalatable, that is my perception, but I want to hear you from that.
	And we say these people now, as they came into Bophuthatswana, at the invitation of Mangope, which State were they representing or were they just people who were hired or soldiers who are hired to come and assist a man who says no, because if you look at the Republic, it is not part of it.  They say no, no, we want the process to go forward and obviously the former State President, Mr De Klerk, got a flatting for this.
	But we now say we are here, elections are taking place the following month and there are these people belonging where, to come and say we are an Army, we would assist you Mr Mangope.
	If we look at that, could we say now focusing that to the hearsay, the talk that went on in Mmabatho that the AWB are here and they want to take over, that is the evidence we have and the applicant says at first I was confined to the TTA, I heard shooting going on, I went out with my colleagues whilst having lunch, and a shot was aimed at me as well.  They are really the people who say we want a better dispensation in South Africa, cohorting him to say you people, assist us.
	And he says, oh well, I am here for the nation.  He goes out, there is shooting, we come to your argument if I listen to it correctly that we would probably go into the realm of speculation which I don't want us to do, but for 20 minutes in respect of one incident which we know before us, there is no longer shooting and we say if that happens, the war situation that prevailed, has stopped.  It is something that would go on normally.
	Are we realistic about it?

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, with respect, a lot of things have been said just now.  Firstly what I can mention is the following, the AWB never took over the Bophuthatswana Defence Force, that evidence is not in front of the Commission.  It could not have been the case.
	The AWB only arrived the Thursday night quite late, and they left the next day, so the whole question of whether there was a takeover, that is - it cannot be.
	It is a misplacement of ideas, it could not have happened.  Whether they were there on invitation from Mangope or not, what is the relevance with all respect, in this incident?

ADV MOTATA: May I interrupt you Mr Van der Berg, that is why I said we shouldn't speculate.  What you should bear in mind too in your submission, is that we know the version given by the applicant and he said when he questioned those people, what are you doing here, why are you here, they said go and ask your President.  That is what he said.
	Then we say whilst that happens and I want you to assist us because really, it is not just a simple matter, we are here to assist each other, please assist us, and that it is not a fact that I agree with you, but there was rumour already, rumour - that hearsay that he got from the neighbour, it had already spread, that is why the township and even Megacity was on flames the next day, because of the presence of the AWB.  Forget about the other people or whether the AWB had taken the Army base over.
	But they were housed there at some stage, that is all we know.  We don't know anything further.  So is there evidence before us other than your submission, which controverts that kind of evidence which we have?

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Chairperson, with all respect the rumours you are now referring to, was completely far-fetched and unrealistic.  The applicant did not even go to the trouble to verify this rumour, to see if it is true or not, to take over a Defence Force.  He said he was under the impression that the AWB took over the Defence Force, but there were no shots fired, there were no war waged, nothing.
	How could the AWB enter into Bophuthatswana, take over the Defence Force and now, it sounds right, yes, the AWB came and took over the Defence Force, that is absurd to believe that.

ADV MOTATA: No, it cannot be Mr Van der Berg, we have evidence before us from Peter de Ionne, he says he even went to the Air Base or rather Military Base and it is these khaki clad people who were pointing them with arms, firearms and say get away here.
	So, wouldn't that kind of evidence strengthen the applicant's rumour that the AWB have taken over, if we have regard to Peter de Ionne's evidence?

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, with respect, it can't be like that.  We must go and see what was the state of mind of the applicant or what was in his thought processes, what was going on when he shot these people.
	Mr Lebotso testified yesterday that he did not know about this.  It does not help we sketch a milieu of war and which is apparent ipso facto after we watched all the video's and then watch it and say there was an incredible war going on and the place was burnt down.  But that is not what the applicant says in his document and it has got nothing to do with his motives, and that is part of the problem.  
	He heard everything from his neighbour the previous night and the next day he was there, and no further evidence is provided and then he goes and he shoots people.  It can't be like that.
	If I can continue.

ADV MOTATA: No, no, but you spoke of what was in the applicant's state of mind, I think, that is very important and we have regard to the papers before us.  He says these people were killing my people and I mean there is a racial tone immediately.  Killing my people and they had reduced my people's lives to being cheap.  That is the state of mind he has.
	After he has been shot at and there is that Mercedes with these occupants, who belonged to these other people, he said in my shock and rage, I attacked them.  Is that not what the papers are saying?

MR VAN DER BERG: With respect Mr Chairperson, no it cannot be.  The fact that, or the reasons that he gives on page 4, it appears there.  What he says there is - it is impossible to fall into his field of knowledge when he shot the AWB men.  That what he said there about people who went to work, innocent people that were shot, that was not in his field of knowledge.  That was things that he found out later.
	All that he knew when he shot the people, is the alleged or the rumour that the AWB took over the government and at the same time they are leaving Bophuthatswana and the people he saw being shot in that short session of shooting, but more than that he did not know.  That knowledge did not fall into that field of knowledge that he had.

ADV MOTATA: But at least we know at least he saw people being shot.  At least that is so.  Would we say his state of mind, when he saw the two people and now let's get the racial tones, my people being shot, wouldn't that - we now examine his state of mind there and not confine it to the criminal procedure and say, that mens rea was what was he saying, but we say in this state of war, once he saw his own people and him, even though he was missed, he was shot at and there is nothing to controvert that he was shot at.