Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

UNKNOWN: That is correct but we wanted to eliminate the person as a result of Sefolo's information, so the
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MS KHAMPEPE	58	W/O VAN VUUREN
purpose was to eliminate him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you then mistaken when in your application at page 131 you say that the reason why you throttled him was to obtain information?  That appears on page 131.

UNKNOWN: That is also correct, we also strangled him to obtain information from him before we were to kill him.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the old motor car tyre from, was it in the combi with you?

UNKNOWN: Yes it was in the combi with us.

JUDGE WILSON: You took that there for the purpose of necklaceing him?

UNKNOWN: It was supposed to look like a necklace, then no fingers could point in our direction.

JUDGE WILSON: So this was all planned in advance?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If the objective was to obtain information was to obtain information from this unknown activist, was initially to obtain information ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: No the purpose was to eliminate him and if we could have extracted information from him that would have been a bonus.

JUDGE MGOEPE: The information that you got from Mr Sefolo about this person, was it also obtained through interrogation which was accompanied by assault and torture on Mr Sefolo?

UNKNOWN: Yes we also killed Mr Sefolo and I've already testified about that in, or I have already asked for amnesty for that, it was the case of Sefolo, Maake and Makupe.
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JUDGE MGOEPE: But what I'm trying to find out from you is that this information which you got from Sefolo, he gave it to you while he was under assault.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you think it would, under those circumstances, be information of such a nature as can be used to an extent of killing someone else?

UNKNOWN: According to Mr Sefolo, the person was a member of his ANC cell which was responsible for acts as set out in my application.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But how can information which comes from somebody who is giving it simply because he is being assaulted be reliable?

UNKNOWN: If he said the person was part of his cell he would have known that person, there was no reason to doubt his word in that respect. We basically tortured him to extract the truth from him.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But he might have said that simply because he was being assaulted, the information might have been incorrect.

UNKNOWN: I don't think that could have been the case.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well didn't you think that he could be wrong?

UNKNOWN: No I never thought that it might be incorrect.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why, I mean you are assaulting the man who is giving incriminating information about somebody else?  Why shouldn't you think that that could well be false?  He's just giving you information to save his skin, his just giving information so that you should stop assaulting him.
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UNKNOWN: Well then he could have given any name, why did he specifically mention this person's name?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well that could also have been any name. If he had given the name of any other person, that person could still have got into trouble and I'd be asking you the question, and you will still be saying to me, well he could have given any other name.

UNKNOWN: We told Mamasela to trace this person and he came back and told us that he found the person.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But he didn't verify the truth of the allegation, Mamasela, did he?  All he did was just to find out the address of that person.

UNKNOWN: It's possible but as far as we were concerned, this specific person was part of Sefolo's cell and we tasked Mamasela with tracing this person.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So on the basis of the information that you got from somebody who was being assaulted, you go on to trace somebody and then eliminate him because he has been incriminated by somebody who was being assaulted?  Is that what happened?

UNKNOWN: That is what happened.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Last time when you testified and your colleagues testified about Mr Sefolo, is it not so that you told us that Mr Sefolo was a very brave man despite the assault?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Despite the fact that two people were shot in front of him, he was not prepared to talk, to give information.

UNKNOWN: No two people were not shot in front of him, we kicked him or we gave him electric shocks with a
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generator.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes that may be so, it may be that the two people are not before him but the point I'm making to you is that we were told then, that this man Sefolo was killed because he refused to give you information.

UNKNOWN: No as far as I can recall, that was not the case.

JUDGE WILSON: On page 102 of the thing about Sefolo, it says that,
"He admitted that he was a trained terrorist, we obtained names and information about his cell members from him, as well as information about other terrorists"
You then went on to say, 
"We had to force Sefolo to talk by giving him electric shocks".
You then go on to say and I got this in English,
"He didn't want to give information, he was a strong person who believed in what he did".

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So this is information forced out of him by means of shock treatment.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And then Mamasela put a knife into his nose.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And after that you got some information.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So do we understand you to say that you did get information out of Sefolo?

UNKNOWN: Yes we did get information out of Sefolo.

JUDGE MGOEPE: That was when he was being tortured?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.
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MS KHAMPEPE	62	W/O VAN VUUREN

SISI KHAMPEPE: W/O van Vuuren, for how long was the activist strangled for?

UNKNOWN: It is very difficult for me to say, I can't remember exactly.  I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did it take quite a short time for him to die after he had been throttled by possibly the two of you?

UNKNOWN: It is very difficult for me to answer that now but I think the whole process would not have lasted for longer than half an hour.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was the strangling the best way of getting information which you would have regarded as a bonus in addition to eliminating him?

UNKNOWN: No, I wouldn't say that it was the best method but because we decided to eliminate him, we decided to strangle him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So to satisfy your appetite for torture before elimination, you decided on the throttling method?

UNKNOWN: The strangling took place whilst we were driving in the combi.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: You were asked about the other two people, but as I understand you, the evidence that you gave in your application, you agreed there that Maake and Makupe were shocked to death in front of Sefolo before he was shot and questioned?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: You made him watch two other men being tortured and killed?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you report back about the names and addresses that you got from Sefolo.
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ADV DE JAGER	63	W/O VAN VUUREN

UNKNOWN: We reported back to the Brigadier and the Brigadier would have circulated this information to all the various sections.

ADV DE JAGER: You don't know whether those names are still available somewhere?

UNKNOWN: After the burning of all the documents those names would have been lost and destroyed with the documents.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?