Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Yes, I do.  I must say that I don't want to bore you with long speeches about why we did what we did or why I was doing the work I was doing, but over a long time we were conditioned to the stage where we could actually do things like this, perhaps.
	You must remember that from a very, very early age I was exposed to the violence that was happening in the country.  I can remember at that age of eight, looking out of my bedroom window in Scottsville, Pietermaritzburg and seeing the community hall of Sebantu village burning during unrest and that was the first indication to me that we had a problem here.  
	And then throughout the years for instance, the propaganda that we were exposed to, but no propaganda could ever teach me that black people were bad, or no propaganda could teach me not to respect and love the nursemaid I had who first taught me Zulu or uBuntu or whatever you'd like to call it.  I realised there was something seriously wrong, but the savage nature of the symptoms of the Nationalist Government, the savage nature of the symptoms, there were so many of them.  I can recall things like the Bashe Bridge murders, I can recall things like the Langa riots, I can recall the Cato Manor riots, I can recall the nun, Dr Mary Quinlan who was killed during township unrests and the mob eating her body which they cooked on her burning car.  Stuff like that left a lasting impression on me and I wanted to fight this.  I realised that black people weren't being treated right, but nothing, but nothing could condone the savagery of those symptoms.
	Anyway, to cut it short, if the deceased is who we think he is, then we were fighting on opposing sides, we were fighting a war that was caused by ideologies and fanned by politicians.  I think I was about four months old when the Nationalist Government came to power, I had nothing to do with the formulation of their policies, but I had a lot to do with the symptoms of that rule and as I say, we fought on different sides.  And it has occurred to me that I've been indicated that it's the sister of the deceased who is facing me now and it's just occurred to me that it could be my mother, my sister, my children sitting there now, because what happened to the deceased could quite easily have happened to me.  I was involved in a lot of covert operations both inside and outside.  Nothing, nothing like this I can tell you, but was often in the company of people, being all alone by myself, often in the company of people who thought I was one of them and had they discovered that I was not one of them, it would be my mother sitting there now, Sisi, you must understand that.  
	So I empathise with the family of the deceased, I would be very heartless if I did not do so.  And for the pain that you have had to suffer, I apologise ...(Zulu), Sisi, I apologise.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we could take the adjournment now and would it be inconvenient if we could resume at 2 o'clock?  Would that be okay?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You are free to take off your coats if you find it necessary.  Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gold, April 1980, Mr van Zyl says his recollection is, although he's not nearly as accurate as you as far as a specific date is concerned, is the second of the years, in other words after June.  Could that also possibly be the case?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Mr Chairman, it's possible, that's also possible.

MR BOOYENS: Fine.  The communications addressed to you by Mr van Zyl prior to this incident, are you - I didn't quite understand you, are you saying there could have been one phone call or more than phone call, or are you saying there was actually more than one phone call?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well I don't know how many there were.  There might have been only one, but I doubt it because you know there would have been maybe one to warn me that something is going down, another one to ask me if I'd got this or whether I'd got the car and to confirm that I'd be there.  There was probably more than one, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: No, I can see that, but would you agree that the phone calls about this incident were all on the previous day?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Oh yes, no doubt.  Definitely, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So if there were two, irrespective, two or three phone calls it doesn't really matter, but they were all on the day before the incident.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I agree with that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, would that really be relevant?  They assembled there and they killed this man.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, no, the reason why I asked that question, I think it was Commissioner Lax that dealt with the previous knowledge that explosives will be necessary, so all I want to established is that there wasn't a week long planning beforehand and that is why I submit it is relevant.
	As far as your relationship in the Security Police is concerned, would it be correct to say that in those days you were a very close-knit community and there was a great amount of trust between you as Security policemen?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Definitely, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you also accepted when Mr van Zyl approached you, that this would not be something that would be decided upon lightly and although you didn't, I don't recall you mentioning it, but do you recall that it was mentioned perhaps, that you perhaps just left it out, that head office okayed this operation?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No, that wasn't told to me at all.

MR BOOYENS: You were not told about that.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Not on - not, no.  In fact, I always secretly hoped while we were waiting for this hearing, I secretly hoped that somewhere that would be the case, and I saw it in the bundle for the first time.

MR BOOYENS: Oh I see.  But you didn't know it at the time.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No.

MR BOOYENS: But when you saw a senior officer there you realised that this decision was taken much higher.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Then I realised this was a heavy decision or something that was serious.

MR BOOYENS: I see.  Insofar as your recollection of Mbazwaan is concerned, Mbazwaan is on the coast.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: It is although not in sight of the coast.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, ja, no.  The conditions of the roads in those days, were they not merely - I'm specifically talking about 1980, were they not just basically sand roads?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: They were sands roads but they were pretty good.

MR BOOYENS: I see.  You see because - and that's not really an important issue, but bearing in mind that these people came from the Johannesburg side, from the Transvaal side, they would have basically to drive past Josini and then turn back.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: That is true.  I can see that I may mistaken, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I see.  I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Gold, the distance between Mbazwaan and Josini to the spot is approximately 70 kilometres, would you agree to that?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Sir, if you told me that's what it is, I would have to agree with you.

MR PRINSLOO: And Pongola to the spot is approximately 50 kilometres, will you agree to that?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I would have thought a little shorter than that, but if you tell me that I'll have to agree with you there as well.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, it's approximately.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Yes, Sir.

MR PRINSLOO: No further, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MS SAMUEL: Mr Gold, you mentioned just before the adjournment that you had been involved in some sort of covert operations as well, what sort of operations were these?