Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: The question, not what point, how he releases it?

MR YENGENI: Yes, how he releases it?

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just show how you release it?  Put it on again.  Yes, and now you must show how you release it.

MR YENGENI: How you release it.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, could we put on record, I think you pull the bag down and then tight about his neck?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR YENGENI: Release it.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: You would ask him to speak and if he shook his head ...

MR YENGENI: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: But when you released the bag, you didn't in fact take it off his head, you just let it go slack around the neck?  Is that so?  So you could tighten it up as you ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sometimes off, sometimes left it there.

MR YENGENI: But the question that I want to ask is at what point do you release the bag to give the person who is tortured, more air?  Is there something, are you counting time or is there something that you feel and then you release the bag?  What happens, what makes you to release the bag?

CHAIRPERSON: I imagine that when you are in that position, you are asking questions?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are expecting answers?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And whether you release it and when you release it, would depend upon whether you are getting answers from this person?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Answers and also you would, or I would, release it - the intention was never to (indistinct) somebody, but the possibility, the real possibility was always there Sir.  I did realise that.

MR YENGENI: But where there any, was there any physical condition that would make you to release the bag on the part of the person who is tortured?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On occasions people have I presume, and I say presume, lost consciousness, they would go slack and every time that was done, I would release the bag.

MR YENGENI: How did I react and respond to you at the bag?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think you can bear with me that individually I cannot say how you reacted, I know that after the method was applied, you did take us to the house of Jennifer Schreiner where we took out a lot of limpet mines, handgrenades and firearms.  In other words, your reaction as far as if I understand it correct was, was you told us where your weaponry was.

MR YENGENI: The question Mr Benzien is, myself and others if we are under that kind of wet bag and we are being choked by that bag, how do we react at that point? How do we react, what is our physical reaction?

CHAIRPERSON: What happens to the person why he is being choked?  Can you describe?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I presume, excuse me Your Honour, the actions of somebody who was suffocating.

MR YENGENI: Can you describe those reactions?

CHAIRPERSON: Would there be any movement?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There would be movement, there would be head movement, distress, all the time there would be questions being asked do you want to speak or what have you and as soon as an indication was given that this person wanted to speak, the air would be allowed back to his person to say what he wanted to say.

MR YENGENI: Would the person groan, moan, cry, scream?  What would the person do?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, the person would moan, cry, although muffled, yes, it does happen.

MR YENGENI: And you did this to each and every one of us?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To the majority of you, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry Mr Benzien, if you say you did that to the majority of peoplewhat was then the criteria which would be used to determine who would qualify for the wet bag system and who wouldn't?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Ma'am, some of the arrestees at that stage would voluntarily give the information.  Those who did not give the voluntary information, I used this method on.

MR YENGENI: Was Liebenberg aware of this system of torture, Your Commander?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am sure he was, Your Worship.

MR YENGENI: You are sure he was?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.  Although he was not, I must say, available or present on each occasion.

MR YENGENI: Who was present in my occasion?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As before the lunch adjournment, I know at the time of your arrest, was Liebenberg, myself.  I am not sure if Nel was there, I know Sergeant Bellingham was there and I think Sergeant Goosen.
	Members of the Commission if I may say this at this stage, this (indistinct) method that I used, I normally or as far as I can remember, would do it alone, with my victim in a room.  The reason for that was that inadvertently at a trial it would be brought up as evidence which I would deny and if I had nobody doing it with me, then it would have been my word against the complainant.

MR YENGENI: Now, you said that Liebenberg, you are sure that he knew about this method.  How did he know about this method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am of the opinion it was common knowledge.

MR YENGENI: Common knowledge to the police, you mean common knowledge to the police people and the members of the public?  What do you mean by that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Common knowledge to the members of the Anti-terrorist Unit.

MR YENGENI: Who was above Commander Liebenberg, who was controlling him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There were different Officers commanding Liebenberg.  You had Officers working in Intelligence, you had Officers working Regulation 29, like ...

MR YENGENI: Who were they?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I must just get my priorities correct here.  As I say there were numerous facets in the Security Branch.  In charge of Terrorism at one or other stage I would say was, it started off as Major Smit, who became a Lieutenant Colonel.  He was the man that signed your Regulation 29 detentions and so forth.
	I would presume that would be Liebenberg's direct Commander.

MR YENGENI: You said there were two, who was the other one?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That was as far as Liebenberg was concerned.  At a previous stage there was an Officer who retired.  I think it was a Colonel Viljoen, if I am not mistaken.

MR YENGENI: So since you said this was common knowledge, so I take it that even the seniors to Liebenberg knew about this method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would be surprised if they did not know, Your Honour.

MR YENGENI: So I take it that what you are saying is that the police in this Unit and those that were in charge of them, knew about this method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is speculation and I say again, I would be surprised if they did not know it.  As our instructions were to immediately after an arrest, to (a) find out if the person in detention has any contact people, arms cachets and that had to be found as soon as possible, because Mr Yengeni you will surely know that you people always operated with a cut out time.  If you could answer me on that, and you know that a cut out time worked from 10 minutes to 30 minutes to a day or two.
	If you did not rendezvous with one of your compatriots, at a certain cut out time, then they were not to meet at the designated place, but to meet at a pre-arranged day or two or whatever was arranged, just between the person and his immediate cut out.

MR YENGENI: Now, if in terms of your explanation, you were a policeman to uphold the law, why did you do these things?  I mean all these illegal things, things that were against the law?  Why did you engage in it, in a criminal activity?