Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR MPOFU: Did you tell anybody that Mrs Satchwell came to Mrs Mandela's house and Mrs Mandela acted as an interpreter and Mrs Satchwell said to you, do you want to go to Lusaka or do you want to be paid money, something to that effect?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR MPOFU: Mr Chairman if I can just - yes final question.  I put it to you that you made a statement under oath on the 15th of March 1990, a copy of which has been obtained from the TRC to a person by the name of Norman Lemmer which was -the statement was under oath and you made one of the following allegations.
(No interpretation)
A loose translation of that is that the three of us went to Cape Town and you and I apparently spent the night there and came back the following day.

UNKNOWN: Your question is?

MR MPOFU: That he made ...(intervention)

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't remember anything of that sort.  I don't remember anything of that sort.

MR MPOFU: But do you remember going to Cape Town with me?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

UNKNOWN: You told me that was your last question.

MR MPOFU: Yes.  Well the very last one is that all the statements that are attributed to you, except for the one that was made in the book, were made by you under oath and there are several lies contained in your book, other than the one of me going to Brandfort.  Have you got any comment?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I said earlier on that some of the things written here were not said by me.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.  Yes, please, just give your name.

MS GERNTHOLTZ: My name is Lisa Gerntholtz and I act on behalf of Bishop Verryn.  I would simply like to ask you one question Mr Cebekhulu for the purposes of the record.  The allegations that you made about Bishop Verryn you seem to vacillate between whether he raped you or whether he sexually abused you, were there any truth in those allegations at all?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I even want to apologise to him for having made those allegations because they were not true and still are not true.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR MPOFU: Sorry Chairperson.  No, no, I just want to, because I don't know whether I will get an opportunity to place this on record or to take the stand. I just want, for the sake of the record, to state that I have never been to Brandfort, I don't even know how to get there, in my life.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: We'll arrange for that a little later.  Thank you.

MR SOLLER: Peter Soller for Zikele Mbatha.  Mr Cebekhulu will you have a look please at paragraph 32 on page 10 of your affidavit.

UNKNOWN: Could I just ask you, are you the last lawyer now?

MR SOLLER: I guess the last but one I gather.

UNKNOWN: Who is the other one?

MR SOLLER: My learned friend on my right....

UNKNOWN: No,

MR SOLLER: Then I am the last.

UNKNOWN: You are the last so I am sure you will set a good example.

MR SOLLER: I will endeavour to do so Mr Chairperson.  Mr Cebekhulu have you had a look at page 10 paragraph 32 of your affidavit?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I can see that.

MR SOLLER: Do I read into that that you actually witnessed the murder of Dr Asvat?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I did not witness it.

MR SOLLER: What do you intend then saying by "KC himself saw the murder and to the sequence of events which caused Dr Asvat to lose his life as well"?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: All I know is that I pointed out the surgery, that is all that I know with regard to Dr Asvat's death, nothing more.

MR SOLLER: So it's factually incorrect for you to say that you saw the murder?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I think that's a factual mistake.  I just showed them the place.

MR SOLLER: As to the sequence of events Mr Cebekhulu my client as you know, Mr Mbatha, received the death sentence for this murder, are you aware of that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I am not aware.

MR SOLLER: Do you not know that he's one of the young unknown Zulu boys to whom you were referring earlier tonight?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I do know that there are people who killed Dr Asvat but I didn't know their names until they were mentioned that it was Mbatha and Siro.

MR SOLLER: Is it not correct that in the book that's been referred to so frequently tonight at least on four separate pages their name is referred to?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: As I have come here I want to speak the truth because I did say that some of the things alleged in this book are not my personal assertions.  Some people I know them by their first names but not their surnames.

MR SOLLER: In fact you say you are aware of the sequence of events and I quote from paragraph 32 which caused Dr Asvat to lose his life, can you dispute what my client will tell the Commission that he was offered a considerable sum of money by Mrs Mandela to take the life of Dr Asvat?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I do not know anything with regard to the money.  I would have said that if I had any knowledge thereof.

MR SOLLER: Then for the purposes of your evidence I can disregard entirely the fact, I can disregard paragraph 32 in it's entirety of your affidavit, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Paragraph?

MR SOLLER: Paragraph 32 on page 10.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I did not witness Dr Asvat's killing but I did point out the place.

MR SOLLER: Well can I just be a little bit more specific.  The sequence of events, is it correct or incorrect that you were aware of the sequence of events beyond the pointing out of Dr Asvat's place as you call it?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I do remember vaguely.

MR SOLLER: What is it that you remember vaguely?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I remember that I went to show them Dr Asvat's surgery and I went to the police.  I also went to point out Dr Asvat's surgery, but as to the sequence I cannot be absolutely positive.

MR SOLLER: ... possible that if Mr Mbatha says that he was requested to take the life of Dr Asvat by Mrs Mandela, and he did so with your assistance, would he be probably telling the truth?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I think it is true because if it wasn't true I wouldn't have been instructed to go and show him the place.
(...indistinct)

MR SEMENYA: May I ask a short indulgence just to put two questions to Ms Nicholson?

UNKNOWN: I am going to allow Mr Joseph, you want to comment, but that's going to be a very brief comment.

MR JOSEPH: Yes I want to express our gratitude, the gratitude of Baroness Nicholson and Mr Cebekhulu to you and your Commission for sitting so late so as to accommodate their personal problems.

UNKNOWN: Thank you for that.  Yes, two brief questions.

MR SEMENYA: Madam you have told us about your passion for human rights, can you confirm the book that you are describing Mrs Mandela as a "self-styled mother of the nation".

EMMA NICHOLSON: Can I confirm what?

MR SEMENYA: That you describe in the book Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as a "self-styled mother of the nation".

EMMA NICHOLSON: My input into the book is the foreword which I wrote and authored.

MR SEMENYA: So you confirm it's correct?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I confirm that the foreword I wrote in the book is as I wished to express it.

MR SEMENYA: And that's she's a black mamba.  Is that your description and your respect for human rights to describe people as black mambas?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I fully confirm everything I have written in that foreword.

MR SEMENYA: And I take it you will give me the same answer that your adherence to human rights would get you to describe Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that she is a witch?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I confirm what I have written in that foreword, it is under my name, I am surprised that you ask me.

MR SEMENYA: No I just want to understand whether this that is described here is said by you with your conviction as a human rights adherent, that's all I am asking?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I confirm I've written that foreword.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.

EMMA NICHOLSON: But may I add also, is it possible for me to add  something?

UNKNOWN: If it's very brief, yes.