Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR MAPOMA: But were you against the principle of that they be killed?  I'm not saying - now get me correctly, I understand you said you never killed any person in your entire life and therefore it would be very difficult for you to kill a person but my question is, did you agree with the idea that they be killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Let me shortly answer your question.  Psychologically and spiritually, no, but physically yes.

MR MAPOMA: Can you explain that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I'm not - I'm telling you about my  personality.  It was difficult to accept this but because I was there it means that I agree, I agreed physically, yes I was there but as a person inside, no.

MR MAPOMA: Now as a person inside, what do you feel should have happened about them?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I expected anything.  I cannot tell exactly what I expected.  Anything could have happened.

MR MAPOMA: Now, before the order was given, an order to kill.  Let me say this first.  Where exactly was this order given?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: We were at Block F.

MR MAPOMA: Is that at Blanko's place?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MAPOMA: Is that at the place where the youth were kept?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When exactly did you arrive?  Did you arrive when all the youth were already kept?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Where were you from?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: We were from the  hospital to look for the Red Cross people, Red Cross Committee.

MR MAPOMA: When you say we, who was?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: It was myself and the driver of - let me say the owner of the car and Jabu.  I do not remember his surname.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Sepo Baloi?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Where?

MR MAPOMA: When you arrived, coming from Red Cross, where was Sepo Baloi?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: He was present.

MR MAPOMA: Was he amongst you when you were coming from Red Cross?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MAPOMA: Who else was not armed, other than yourself, when the order was given?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I would not remember who else was not armed sir.

MR MAPOMA: When you say you were not armed, you say you did not even have a knife?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Nothing sir.

MR MAPOMA: I'm asking this question Mr Mthembu because when we met with my learned friend we agreed that all the Applicants were armed with various sorts of weapons and that is the understanding.  That you agreed that you - you admit that you were all armed but with different sorts of weapons.  Now you are telling the Committee now that you were not having a single weapon with you?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.  I am giving you an explanation.  I would not go to the hospital with a weapon.  We came back from the hospital and they were all gathered.

MR MAPOMA: No, I'm not necessarily referring to what you were carrying when you were from the Red Cross necessarily.  But I'm saying, the understanding that all the persons who participate - who were there in the killing were armed with various sorts of weapons.  Now you, as an individual say you were not armed with anything.  	This is important.  Let me just say, this is important because we want full disclosure from the person who applies for amnesty and there's a contradiction that comes here now.  I'm asking this question fairly to you, I'm not - I just want you to comment on that.

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: This is the situation.  I was an operator.  I did not use many weapons.  Weapons that I could not handle with my hands.  As an operator, we took turns now there are duty engaged, working with guns.  Those who were not operators might have in their possession, knobkerries and those knives but as an operator I did not have anything.
	At that time maybe the order was going to be given to me, maybe to shoot and it was during that time where I would get a gun and then shoot.  There is no conflict there.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, operators were coming in for their patrol duties were issued with the weapons to carry, during their patrol?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have a firearm that you would take along with you home?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.  Those guns were not staying with the operators.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mapoma wants you to deal with is that your Counsel has told us that all of you who were at the scene of the killing were armed with various weapons.  Do you understand that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: You are now telling us that you were not armed with anything.  Is that right?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think he wants you to reconcile that.

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Shortly my Counsel or our Counsel did not get all the facts because he didn't have enough time.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not have enough time to do what?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I mean that he did not have enough time to listen to every one of us.  It was just a quick thing.

MR MOTATA: Mr Mthembu, when your Counsel spoke to you he should have or I think he did say to you he would make this understanding with the Counsel on the other side, didn't he advise you that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Sir, I thought you were carrying on with your question.  Can you repeat that please?

MR MOTATA: I said that there is an understanding which was read to us, do you recall that understanding, read by Mr Madasa?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MOTATA: And in that understanding he said, the Applicants, that is including you, you had all assortments of weapons when the killings were done.  Do you recall that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I recall.

MR MOTATA: And what Mr Mapoma wants to know is that once he made that into an understanding that would have included you but now you are saying to us, you did not have a weapon at all and how could you reconcile what your Counsel has said to us with what you are saying right now, that's what he wants to know from you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell your Counsel that you had a weapon on the day in question?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I think I told him sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That you had a weapon on the day in question?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No sir.  Not that I had a weapon, I told him that I was not armed.

MR MAPOMA: Now what time of the day was it when this order to kill was given, what it at night or in the morning or in the afternoon?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I cannot tell but it was about 12 o'clock or even 10 o'clock but it was already light.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean, 10 or 12 o'clock when, at night or in the morning?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Not 10 at night, not 12 at night.  During the day sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you arrived in the scene.  Did you arrive with any of the youth to cause to join the others?

CHAIRPERSON: What stage are you talking about now?  Because as I understand his evidence, he had gone to the Red Cross, when he returned from the Red Cross the youths were already in the shack, that's were the order was given.  He accompanied them to the veld where the killing took place.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair.  So is it your evidence that you did not participate in kidnapping any youth?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MAPOMA: Did you assault any of them?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No sir.

MR MAPOMA: So all that you did in the whole incident was to be present when they were killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that is what you have to come to apply for amnesty here?  Being present when they are killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, you say you remained in the scene until the killing was over?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Did you witness any use of weapons like pangas, knives on the deceased persons?

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike was not on.

CHAIRPERSON: At the veld?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson at the veld.