Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-18

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Leslie.  The Health and Human Rights documents it's really quite extensive and it's a pity that we haven't been able to deal with many of the specific issues that you have researched in the documents.  But I want to engage you just for a moment on one of the arguments that you make because I think it is important if you are going to be thinking about reconciliation and the redress of some of the pertinent issues in the abuse of human rights in the practice of medicine and in other sectors in general.  You say that you give the example of people like Wendy and other individuals who stood up for the rights of their patients and you made the point that if people like Wendy could do it, why couldn't the number of people in the health sector who could also speak out, why couldn't they do it.  What worries me, I think it is a concern, but this is true in many sectors of our society in the past, of our history, these questions could be raised in relation to education, to military service where some people left the country or some objected and so forth, but the majority, always it is the majority who do not speak out.  And I wonder what your views are about why it is that only a few people always speak out and the majority of people don't speak out against the abuse of human rights.

LESLIE LONDON: In a sense the issues have been touched on by various people.  I think at an individual level there are questions of fear, of political alignment world view, but I think in the context the professions failed to support or failed to provide role models for people to say we will support you if you speak out, or we think this is the norm, the problem was that the training institutions, the professional organisations were reproducing a norm which was entirely devoid of any social conscience.  We believe that had that been done differently it would have been less easy for doctors and other health professionals just to ride on what was happening.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes, Madam Chair, sorry, I think that you are right, but the concern is that these kinds of modalities have been reproduced throughout the world.  There have been, I mean you referred yourself to the holocaust and to the book, The Willing executioners of Germany, the reality is that people live in an environment that propagates a particular kind of culture which starts from the education of the young, the teaching of certain modes of behaviour, the exclusion of certain individuals, the abuse of certain groups in the population and people learn about this from a very early age.  And I think we should be looking at a different way as a form of social engineering which could address these problems rather than look - yes we could look at individuals as well, but I think largely we should perhaps be looking at different forms of social engineering that could re-teach or teach new moral behaviour in this country, and that is my view even as far as it relates to medical ethics.  We need a re-teaching of moral behaviour of new ethics in a different way that will start people at a very early age of their education and I think that way we might be able to have some kind of achievement in the area of the learning of human rights.  That is my last comment and I will welcome a comment from you and we will end up the conversation.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe if I might just come to your protection I should think the comment that you have just raised let's take it as food for thought.  Thank you very much for giving us what is like a synthesis of the debates that have gone over these two days, and also for setting a tone and a challenge for people who will be picking up these issues.  Thank you very much.  Other people will have an opportunity of debating these issues later on during the plenary meeting.
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SUBMISSION

MS MKHIZE: At this point in time I would like to invite representatives of the Department of Health to take a seat please.  While they are coming forward I would like to read two messages of support.  
 The first one is from the African Christian Democratic Party.  I am reading this without implying that you are under the string of Cabinet.  It says,
"Our party believes that it is vital for the TRC to examine the role of health professionals in human rights abuses in South Africa and to document as fully as possible all gross human rights (...indistinct), professional violations perpetrated by the health care sector during the period from 1 March 1960 to the cut off date which is 1994".
 Also from the Mpumulanga Provincial Government, Department of Health, Welfare and Gender Affairs, it says,
"The above Department appreciates and supports the process the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has set forth.  Although we will not be attending the meeting on the 17th of June 1997 this will ensure, to a great extent, that human rights abuses in the health sector do not recur in the future".
 Gentlemen I will ask you to mention your names and to take an oath please.

OL ER PRETORIUS: I am Oliver Pretorius, Deputy Director of Department of Health.

MELVYN FREEMAN: I am Melvyn Freeman, Director Mental Health and Substance Abuse.

TIM WILSON: I am Tim Wilson, one of the Chief Directors in the Department.

DR OLIVER PRETORIUS: (sworn states)

MELVYN FREEMAN: (sworn states)

TIM WILSON: (sworn states)

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  Dr Ramashala will then assist you in talking to your submission.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Good afternoon gentlemen.  You know Dr Pretorius it would not be true to my nature if I didn't comment about the gender representation - (General laughter), yes, and colour.  Before I proceed may I say thanks for your patience.  I know you have been sitting here for two days and there is a method to this madness, it was by design to actually assign you to the last submission.  It was very important for us that you listened to the two days testimony because ultimately it is the Department of Health that is held accountable as the national health accounting structure, and I hope that you were able to benefit from the presentations for these two days, and that the presentations will help you in terms of joining us to move forward to address the very serious problems that are facing the South African health care system.
 May I make a comment and say that, is it correct that this is just a preliminary submission, am I correct?  Okay.  And you don't intend to read it in its entirety are you?  Okay.  May I ask you to proceed and then I'll come back to prevailing questions.