Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ADV PRIOR: There's just one other aspect.  In the bundle that was put up at page, that's A1 Mr Chairman, if I can just get the reference, page 152, paginated bundle A1, reference is ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, if you could just quote that reference again, I missed it.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, yes, it's bundle A1 at paginated page 152.  Reference is made to an unsigned statement of Mr McBride, at paragraph 168.  There's some suggestion there that Oupa, someone Oupa, had emphasised that the car bomb should be set off on or before the 14th of June 1986.  The question is, do you have any recollection of that, if you are Oupa?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not remember me saying that.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, may I just come in at this stage Mr Chairman?  I don't think Mr Prior is intending to be misleading, but he used the words "Mr McBride's unsigned statement".  It will later be contested that this, it will be placed on record through Mr McBride that this is not his statement, signed or unsigned.  He's neither the author of the document, nor was anything therein extracted from him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal.  Yes, Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: I really have nothing further.  May I just simply put a remark on record, that this was the type of situation that we sought to avoid, by holding a pre-hearing consultation.  I've indicated to other of my colleagues that a lot of the confusion would have been sorted out, if we had been able to all attend such a hearing, because the bundles were prepared and obviously it would seem from yesterday's proceedings and today, there is a lot of the information has been put up that is not accepted, so now we're sitting with a situation with a whole lot of information that we don't really know the status of and if we're going to have to be put to the proof thereof, we're going to possibly take more time than has been allocated.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prior.

MR RICHARD: The statement to which Mr Dehal and Mr Prior have now referred, is going to be the subject matter of hot debate.  I will insist that it be proved, because it is peppered with corroboratable evidence and factual allegations and I don't believe it can be left in the status that it be simply withdrawn.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think Mr Prior's now heard what you've said and has been forewarned.

MR RICHARD: And neither do I want to be prejudiced by the same token, by not putting references to this witness in this document, to him, but subject to that I close my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Berger, do you have any re-examination?

MR BERGER: Very briefly, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Mr Pule, you were asked by Mr Richard, how did you ensure that people complied with policy, with ANC policy and your answer was: "We as Commanders were able to do certain things."  I beg your pardon, it wasn't Mr Richard, it was Adv Sigodi who asked the question.  Do I understand by your answer that ensuring that cadres received proper training with regards ANC policy and guidelines was not your responsibility alone, it was the responsibility of all the Commanders in Botswana?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And would it follow from that that it was also the responsibility of your Commanders?  In other words, that it fell within the responsibility of you, Chris, Rashid, all the Commanders to ensure that cadres understood ANC policy and guidelines?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, I'd like to refer you to page 13 of A1.  This is a document apparently compiled by some investigators of the TRC.  In relation to you, the information there is that Oupa could be L E Pule, who was allegedly responsible for despatching three consignments of arms to the Republic of South Africa during March 1986 and who resided at 13 000, Extension 46, Gaberone, perhaps with Webster and McBride.  Now up to that point.  Did you reside at number 13 000, Extension 46, Gaberone?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not remember where, I don't know where the origin of this information, because I stayed in different places in Botswana.  I was changing places from time to time.  I cannot specifically say that I resided in a particular place in Botswana, so I really don't know where this information comes from, I do not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we as a Committee won't be making any findings of facts based on that particular document, on the report, if that's what you concern is, I mean, we'll only make a finding that Mr Pule was arrested on the 11th of June, if we have evidence to that effect, we won't rely on that document or the same with any address that he may have been at or any other allegation contained in that document.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I understand that, I just want to place this whole paragraph in context for Mr Pule himself as well, because the next sentence is perhaps more relevant.  It says Mr Pule, and perhaps you can, this will jog your memory or not, it says
"He was arrested on the 11th of June 1986 with limpet detonators and electric detonators."
Now do you recall ever being arrested with limpet detonators and electric detonators?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: And you say you were arrested a number of times, but you can't recall the specific dates.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: "He was deported on the 24th of August 1986 without being charged and returned to Botswana allegedly in October 1986."  Is there any truth in that?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not understand and I don't know this information written here.

MR BERGER: And unless you've not told me something, we know you are not the Ambassador to Botswana, is that correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's true, I've never been an Ambassador.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?  Right we'll take the lunch adjournment at this stage.  I see it's ten past one now and then I'll give an opportunity to Panel Members to ask Mr Pule questions.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Pule?

ADV SIGODI: I have no questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Pillay?

JUDGE PILLAY: None.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Pule, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Chairperson the next witness is Mr Mnisi.