Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I'm explaining sir, is that because we were a very large group, we did not use the same route or we did not attack the same houses, we just used the route in the township.

MR LAX: Okay.  Are you able to give us any indication of which directions the main groups went in, from the point at which you are standing at Umsimvuvu Street, with the township in front of you, facing therefore towards the east.  Did some go to your left, did some go to your right, some go straight down Umsimvuvu Street?  What do you remember?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I remember was that when we entered the township, we did not change direction, we just followed the easterly direction from the entrance of the township, going inwards.

MR LAX: So you would have carried down Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think that because we entered through that direction, some of us would have proceeded along Umsimvuvu.

MR LAX: And you've told us that you did actually, you personally did proceed down there, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct, sir.

MR LAX: Now, I'm not sure what the scale here is but according to what Mr Berger indicated, from this point roughly at the beginning of Umsimvuvu Street down towards the park is about 900 metres, is that correct?  That's about 9 football grounds?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can see that sir.

MR LAX: Now that - were you walking, were you running, were you running fast, what were you doing?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We were hurrying because the people we were after were running into the houses.

MR LAX: Now, you told us you saw a group of people sitting around a fire when you got into the township?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR LAX: How far away from you was that group of people when you saw them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: They were not very far, but they were inside the township.

MR LAX: Well were they in the first block, were they in the second block?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: They were just seated at the first block of the first houses into the township.

MR LAX: So they were seated at that first block as you come into Umsimvuvu Street, somewhere along that first block?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: And when they saw you they ran away?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR LAX: And you and others presumably chased them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR LAX: Now how long and how far did you chase them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As we were chasing them and they ran into houses, we also followed into the houses.

MR LAX: Can you point out for us on this map where those houses were that they ran into?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not be able to point out on the map because I do not know the township very well.

MR LAX: Okay.  Now, while you were running and chasing these people, what else did you do?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There was nothing else that we did.

MR LAX: So you didn't break windows, you didn't break furniture, you didn't steal anything, all you can tell us is that you stabbed one person and that you hit another person over the head?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have explained that, sir, that because these people ran into houses that was when property got damaged in the houses.

MR LAX: I'm not asking what these people did, I trying to understand what you yourself remember doing, yourself?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I explained that we destroyed property and whatever furniture that we found inside the houses.

MR LAX: Now you're told us that these people seemed to be forewarned, they saw you coming and they ran away?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR LAX: You've also said that you were quite angry?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: You've also said that the Intelezi made you angry?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR LAX: What I'm trying to understand is, was it this anger that made you just react and attack people indiscriminately?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Because we were already heartbroken and sore because we had been tortured and harassed in the township before.

MR LAX: Ja, my question was, from the way you described what you - how you felt - you seemed to have got very angry and then the Intelezi made you even more angry and the fact that these people seemed to be forewarned and running away from you must have made you even more angry?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: So what I'm trying to understand is did you act out of anger in the situation and that's why you attacked people indiscriminately?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir, it had come to a point where we did not know what to do because our people were dying daily.

MR LAX: Where did you get your two firearms from?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I bought the first one from Westgate in Johannesburg.  I bought the second one in Vanderbijlpark.

MR LAX: This second one is a CZ isn't it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, a CZ83.

MR LAX: That's a standard police issue, isn't it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not know whether the police used them.

MR LAX: Where did you buy that one?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: At a gun shop in Vanderbijlpark.

MR LAX: You spoke about in the hostel you were divided up into units when you said that the people in your unit were Zwele and - I can't remember who the other person was - Buthelezi?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: What was the purpose of these units?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot explain what the purpose was for because when I arrived that was how things were run, there was a Senior Unit and a Youth Unit.

MR LAX: A Senior Unit and a Youth Unit?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR LAX: Are you meaning committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: Well you see, maybe there's some confusion here and you can clear it up for us but you were asked and this was in relation to one of the statements that was put to you, by Mr Berger I think it was, the person in that statement was saying that everyone in the hostel was divided up into a unit and you confirmed that, as opposed to a committee, you understand?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not understand, sir.

MR LAX: So do you know whether people in the hostel were divided up into different units or not as distinct from committees?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge of that sir.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect, Mr Mthembu, you said that you didn't know whether there was any planning that preceded this attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: Now you were asked in the request of further particulars at page 18 to provide details, the particulars of the various structures and in 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 and so on, you are asked to explain the differences of these different structures, functions, authorities and so on.  In 5.3.1 you talk about the Senior Committee, that is on page 24 and you describe it's functions and you say that one of their functions was to make plans to counter-attack the ANC and then you talk about "after everyone were chased from Boipatong and we could no longer shop or go there", do you see that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not see it, sir.

MR LAX: Well read the last sentence of paragraph 5.3.1 on page 24, it's right in the middle of that page.  You found it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay, now how did you know that that was one of the jobs of the Senior Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say that we had been harassed - our leaders may have discussed this as leaders of the organisation.

MR LAX: You see, in this paragraph you say that's one of their functions, that's one of the jobs they do, you don't say they might have done that, you say they had to make plans.  Now how did you know that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot say how I knew this because I was aware of the situation at the time in the Vaal Triangle.