Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is true.  We did go to Lebowakgomo to reconnoitre the place.  We didn't know the place, but Ashley knew the place very well.  There was a bank in the complex and some Post Offices and when we got there indeed we saw the Fidelity Guard vehicle with money, but we did not do a thing that day because of the fact that we were not in a good condition, we were not very strong, we were only four and we had only two rifles and those gentlemen were six.  We had to go back to Alexandra and try and organise more people so that we can go back to the bank and get the money.  I have already mentioned that we were not taking money just for fun, but we wanted to support our operation.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But on that day, resulting from a question asked by one of the Honourable Members of the Amnesty Committee, you did not - you needed fuel on that particular day, not in future.  I want to carry on with that same paragraph.
"We then returned to Gamotapo and on the way back we drove past a shop just outside of Pietersburg on the road between Pietersburg and Lebowakgomo"
and this shop does not refer to the shop in Roedtan, am I correct, Mr Mhlongo?  Am I correct?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: The shop that we drove past, it's the shop where we killed the people is Roedtan, the Sunshine Cafe, that is the only shop that we got to.  I don't know any other shop except for that one.
MR VAN DER HEEVER
"But this time we stopped there and all four of us entered the shop.  I bought a Citizen and Moss bought a Sowetan.  We walked around.  Moss then said that we must return to this shop later that evening and rob it."

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: As I mentioned initially that this happened some time ago.  I'm beginning to remember now.  That was not the Roedtan, it is another place, the one that I'm referring to, it's another shop.  Yes, it is true that we got in there with Morapapa, but we did not do a thing.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And I want to read from paragraph 27 as well on the same page, page 78 Mr Chairperson.
"In the other suitcase Moss had the AK47 and hand grenade.  The plan was that we are going to rob the shop outside of Pietersburg and then we will drive back to Alexandra."
When you arrived at the shop, from paragraph 28, page 78, that particular shop was closed.  Is that correct?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And then you decided to rob the shop of the cafe in Roedtan where the Bouwer family were killed, is that correct?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because the Roedtan was on our way to Alexandra and we realised that we are running short of fuel, so we decided that if we can get some money in the cafe, we would manage to get petrol and get to our destination.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Chairperson, may I have a word with Mr Bouwer please?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you.  I've got no further questions.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever.  Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS MTANGA: I have one question Chairperson, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mhlongo, it seems to me, based on the statement of your co-applicant, you had many operations planned concerning robbery, if you had obtained this money from this place that you had planned to rob, what would you have done with the money?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I cannot say for sure, but the only person who would know was Motapo because he was the Commander of our unit and he wouldn't do anything, he would report to someone else, the High Commander of APLA.  If we managed to get the money from the bank, he knew what was going to be done, but all I know is that we did not have enough firearms and even the accommodation was not what we wanted, so we really needed the money.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Why did you return to South Africa?  Who told you to come back?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Our leadership told us to come back.

ADV BOSMAN: But who gave you instruction to come back?  Who was your Commander then?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: This decision was taken by the leadership.  There's no specific person who came to me personally to tell me that I should come back to South Africa, but all the APLA members came in large numbers and we were instructed by the leadership that we should come back home.

ADV BOSMAN: What were you instructed to come and do here?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: We knew exactly what we were going to do.  I knew what was expected of me.  I knew that I was supposed to go on with APLA operations.  We had different mandates.  I am talking about myself as an individual.  I know what was expected of me.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you know this?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I knew that from long ago, before we were even told by the Leadership to come back home, I knew that while I was still in the APLA camps, I knew very well what was to happen.

ADV BOSMAN: What was to happen?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I knew that when I come here, I should fight the white people until we are told to stop.  I knew very well why I went to the exile.  I went there to get training so that I'll be able to be involved in the battle with the whites and I was always waiting for someone to come and fetch me to continue with the APLA operation.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you come back?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I came through repatriation.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have a firearm with you?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you obtain the firearm?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was the one who had ammunition all the weapons that we were using were obtained from him and he was a person who would travel to Zimbabwe, he would get firearms there in Zimbabwe.

ADV BOSMAN: And with whom did you have differences?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I have mentioned that those were the members, we had our political differences.

ADV BOSMAN: Can't you just tell us a little bit more about with whom these political differences were and what these political differences were, what about?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: It was due to operations that were supposed to be undertaken.  I was with Matshipape who was residing at Vosloorus.  He was a President and we went to stay in Vosloorus and we did not want to operate there.  That was a problem because Matshipape was expecting us to operate in the East Rand and we did not want that.  That was the source of our differences and that is the cause, that is the reason that led to Morapapa wanting us to leave for the Northern Province.

ADV BOSMAN: If you were prepared to operate in the Northern Province, why were you not prepared to operate on the East Rand?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may chip in.  I know it will be difficult to the applicant, Chairperson, because this was a highly volatile situation within PAC.  If I may throw some light, there was a time when there was a group called Wise Doges which was opposed to the leadership of Makwetu, so Chairperson, that's the reason why the applicant seems to be reluctant because it was something which was - so there was some sort of division so in a way APLA found itself in the cross-fire where they have to take sides, you know, if they go to this side they will be taken as siding, so Chairperson, I would like the Committee not to dwell much on that.  So that's the reason the applicant seems to be reluctant, because it was something which involved the High Office of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think you know he said that there were problems, he can answer that question, I don't think it's an unfair question.