Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

MR BERGER: The reason that you omitted it is because it was said at the stadium that "We are going to destroy Boipatong", and there were no fine distinctions drawn between the self defence units and the people of Boipatong, everybody knew at the stadium that there was now an attack to be launched, and everyone and everything in Boipatong was to be destroyed, that's the reason it's not in your statement, Mr Mbatha?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: That is not true, I did not hear that instruction as to how to kill the people or who to kill at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Do I understand you correctly that you would have attacked the other townships like Sebokeng or Sharpeville, but Boipatong was chosen because it was the closest to Kwamadala.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: If there had been police in Boipatong during the attack, and police vehicles in Boipatong during the attack, are you saying you would have seen it, you would have seen them?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And your evidence is that there was not a single police vehicle in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: Not only would you have seen it, but even if you had not seen it, you would have heard about it from your co-attackers, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would have seen them in they were in there at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And since the attack on Boipatong until today, you have never had a discussion with anybody, or heard anyone talk about the presence of the police in Boipatong during the attack, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: But you did see a military vehicle as you were leaving Boipatong, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that was when you were in the veld between Boipatong and the main road, the road that separates Boipatong from Kwamadala?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not see it at the road, I only saw it on our way out from the township, we were at the veld and this vehicle was headed towards Sebokeng, it made a turn at the filling station.

MR BERGER: If you're standing in the veld looking towards Kwamadala, are you saying that that military vehicle drove on the road in front of you, coming from your left, moving past you and going to your right towards Sebokeng?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was a distance after we had left the township, we saw this vehicle approaching, making a U turn at the filling station.

MR BERGER: But am I correct, do I understand your evidence correctly that this military vehicle passed in front of you, quite a distance in front of you, but passed in front of you, from your left moving to your right and towards Sebokeng?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And after it had gone past you and got towards the robot, that was when it did a U turn?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And once it had done a U turn, what did it do?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It moved towards the firms (?).

MR BERGER: And was any attempt made to interfere with you or any of your co-attackers... (intervention).

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, Mr Berger... (intervention).

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, my notes say that it made a turn at the robots, I didn't hear them saying it made a U turn.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, maybe I got it wrong, but the Zulu was not... (intervention).

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Ja, (indistinct) said a turn, made a turn, made a turn.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, just to be clear, this military vehicle, when it got to the robots, are you saying it turned right and moved towards the firms?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And what attempt was made to interfere with you or any of the co-attackers?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, we were disturbed by their lights and we thought that they may have seen us.

MR BERGER: Other than that, was any attempt made to interfere with you?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It moved slowly, thinking that it had come at a higher speed, but this time it moved slowly, we thought it was suspecting something.

MR BERGER: Anything else?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Shots were fired, directed at this vehicle.

MR BERGER: By whom?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Domorotonga used his AK47 firing the shots.

MR BERGER: Anyone else fire any shots?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, he is the only person I saw shooting.

MR BERGER: And the soldiers, did they do anything?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, they just proceeded straight past the Cape Gate (?).

MR BERGER: Now, at the criminal trial, Mr Bojosi testified that he saw you at the stadium with a spear.   Is that false?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: He must be mistaken.

MR BERGER: But you did have a spear?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I did have a spear on our way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And he testified that later in Boipatong, he saw, he saw you chasing a person who had climbed out of a Peugeot motor vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a second, if you don't mind.   You told us that when you arrived at the hostel that evening, you were told that it had been announced that the day has arrived, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also say that people were supposed to arm themselves?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Did they say people should arm themselves?   Yes, that's what I said, I wanted to know what was happening, and I was informed that Damara said that everybody should arm themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went to your room and you fetched your assegai?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you go to after fetching your assegai from your room?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: We then went out for intelezi(?), it was just outside the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Near the stadium?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you say that Bojosi was not telling the truth at the trial when he said he saw you with a spear at the stadium?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I was referring to the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were near the stadium, or the arena in the hostel with a spear?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was telling the truth, was he?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: And later he said, or he says that he saw you later in Boipatong and he saw you chasing a person who had climbed out of a Peugeot motor vehicle.   That's correct, is it not?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know whether he said that or not, I cannot remember very well.

MR BERGER: Well... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You know, what counsel is putting to you now is what was said by Bojosi at the trial.   You can take it that what counsel is reading to you is accurate, that's what Bojosi said at the trial.   Do you understand that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So all that he wants to find out is whether, was he telling the truth when he... (intervention).

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, he was telling the truth, because yes I did those things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   His evidence is that the man had been hiding behind the Peugeot, was it not?   That is the witness' evidence, that's my recollection.

MR BERGER: My note is that he tried - there was a Peugeot, he tried to conceal himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, behind the - yes, all right.   Yes.   Yes, thank you, Mr Berger.   You say he was correct, he was telling the truth?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Moloi also gave evidence at the trial, and he said that he saw you on the road to Boipatong in possession of a spear.   He was also correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I would say that, because yes, I was in possession of a spear.

MR BERGER: Now, I want to show you, or ask that you be shown the map of Boipatong, Exhibit J.   Thank you.   Have you seen that map before?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do see this map, but I cannot make head or tail of it.