Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR BERGER: And then you crossed the road about 30 metres away, the distance of this hall, away from the military vehicles, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: It is not a long distance to cross over the road.

MR BERGER: The distance between you, your group and the military vehicles as you crossed over the road was about the length of this hall which is about 30 metres, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I will agree with you on that.

MR BERGER: And at that time the military vehicles were stationary, they weren't moving, they weren't going anywhere, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Can you please repeat your question again?

MR BERGER: At the time when you and the other attackers were crossing the road to go back to KwaMadala, the three military vehicles that you've spoken about were not going anywhere, they were stationary, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not correct.  The time we were crossing over the road the two army vehicles were reversing and the other one had already turned.  That was the time when me and others were crossing over the road.  So when I crossed over they were not there.

MR BERGER: Yes, alright.  You see the reason - well let me ask you this, were they moving slowly, the vehicles?

MR MAZIBUKO: They started moving slowly when they turned towards Vanderbijl Park.

MR BERGER: You've said when they turned left then they started moving slowly.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the two military vehicles that were reversing were reversing slowly towards the vehicle that had just turned left?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  These two vehicles, the person who was in front, who was driving the army vehicle in front is the one who turned around after realising that the other two vehicles were already reversing.  So they were not moving faster, they were all slow.

MR BERGER: And Mr Beki Mkhize was with you at the time, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't want to lie to say that he was with me.  The only person that I remember who was with me that time was Themba Mabote.  I don't know where Mr Mkhize had disappeared to then.

MR BERGER: How did you know that it was time to go back to KwaMadala?

MR MAZIBUKO: I've already said that when we were in the township I heard screams that we should go back.  So it was easy to see that people were no leaving the township.

MR BERGER: When you crossed the road, you and the other attackers to go back to Boipatong, how fast were you moving?

MR MAZIBUKO: The time when we crossed the road on your way to KwaMadala, we were moving faster.  We were moving faster than when we went to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Were you running?

MR MAZIBUKO: Some were running but they were not running fast.

MR BERGER: And you moved across the road and back to KwaMadala, back onto the road under the bridge and used
the same route to enter KwaMadala as you had used to come out when you had started the attack, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the soldiers in the army vehicles made no attempt to stop any of you from going back to KwaMadala, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, they never stopped us on our way back to KwaMadala.  All of us were not stopped until we reached KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: If you'll just bear with me for a moment.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe while you are still preparing for another question.
	 Mr Mazibuko, why were these vehicles reversing?

MR MAZIBUKO: I think it is because they heard that shot, maybe they thought that we would shoot at them because we were many.  That is what I think because they started reversing when Themba Mabote started shooting at them.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you say they saw you in a group coming to cross the road?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, they saw us.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, you say that as you were crossing the road, the soldiers in the military vehicles saw you?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, they saw us.

MR BERGER: Are you also known as Lucky Stikenyao?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, it's not me but there was a time I was called Lucky Stikenyao but it was only Hollie who called me Stikenyao.

MR BERGER: So there were two Lucky Stikenyao's?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  The people at KwaMadala didn't know that I'm Stikenyao, there's only person who called me Stikenyao and that is Hollie Bajosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any further questions?

MR BERGER: I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please ask the questions.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that you are not being honest with the Committee, that in fact the police were present during the attack, police vehicles assisted the attackers in transporting some of them into the township and carrying the loot from the township back to KwaMadala.

MR MAZIBUKO: What you are saying to me Mr Berger, I do not agree with you that there were police there.  I'm not trying to run away from the truth but I am telling you that I do not agree with that statement.

MR BERGER: And I also put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was part of the attack, what do you say to that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I only saw Prince Vanana Zulu after the attack.

MR BERGER: Where did you see him?

MR MAZIBUKO: I saw him when we were at the stadium, and that was for the first time that I saw him.

MR BERGER: That was after the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.  Let me explain it this way.  The first time that I saw Prince Vanana Zulu, when there was a conflict between us and the police, when they were saying to us should board their vehicles so that they can go and question us, that was the time that I saw Prince Vanana Zulu.

MR BERGER: Was that the day after the attack, the next day?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not the next day.  It can be after a week or some days.

MR BERGER: So the police only wanted to take you for questioning about a week after the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Even before the end of that week, police were already coming at the hostel.  They wanted to take us but we refused and there were others who came after a few days.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what Mr Themba Khosa said during your criminal trial.  And I'm reading from page 3238 of the criminal record.  He was asked
"Who did you speak with in the hostel when you came to the hostel, when you arrived at the hostel on the 19th of June?"
And his answer was:
"I spoke to two people, one of them was Mr Mthembu.  I'm not certain if the other person Mtwana was, if the other person was Mtwana ..."
And we know that is Prince Vanana Zulu.
"... but I recall that I spoke to Mr Mthembu."
And then on page 3239, second paragraph he was asked the question:
"Good.  Can you remember if Mr Mtwana was at the meeting?"
And Mr Khosa's answer was:
"Yes, he ought to have been there, yes, he must have been there.  I can't remember if all the leaders were present because my intention was not to speak to the leaders separately."
Now we know that Prince Vanana Zulu was the key leader in the hostel, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: To say that he was a key leader at the hostel, I don't want to commit myself in that regard because I don't know.

MR BERGER: And if Prince Vanana Zulu had not been present immediately after the attack - here they're talking about the 19th of June, Mr Themba Khosa would have seen that and he would have noted that.  Besides this evidence I put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was seen in Boipatong at the time of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr Zulu in Boipatong during the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Is it possible that Prince Vanana Zulu was in Boipatong at the time of the attack and you never saw him?

MR MAZIBUKO: Like Mr Berger says that Prince Vanana Zulu is one of the key leaders of KwaMadala, if he was there he would have given a speech at the stadium on the 17th of June, should he have been there.

MR BERGER: So your answer is, if he was there you would have seen him?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.