Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot answer that.  I've told you what I thought the approval of the project was and how I understood it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you advance any reasons why Verster would deny such authority?

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, if my memory serves me right, it was put to Mr Verster about Rosscam and he also said it was not regarded as a serious violation of human ...(intervention)

MR WESSELS: No, no, no, that is not so.  He said that he couldn't remember such an instruction, that is all he said.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Wessels, did he not continue to say that it could have been so?  I think that was his evidence, that he said it could have been an instruction he gave ....

GEORGE BIZOS: Well the record will speak for itself.

MR VAN ECK: That's exactly what he said, Sir.

MR WESSELS: Ja, in cross-examination I think, Mr van Eck, he said that he couldn't remember but it's possible that it might have happened like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was going to happened to the Rev Frank Chikane?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, the name was given to me for monitoring and for collecting information ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Monitoring for what reason?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: For what the reason may be.

GEORGE BIZOS: What does that mean?  I don't want slogans of the CCB, what did it mean, what would you do with the monitoring of the Rev Frank Chikane?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Bizos, I will explain it as follows.  If the information was of such a nature and the Co-ordinator found it satisfying, Mr Verster and the Regional Manager would then present or suggest a project and they would say that I can use a 158 limpet mine, if they wanted it.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but you see monitoring was not what public statements does he make, what - did you monitor what public statements he made?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At the time I did not work on Mr Chikane, I said that so in no uncertain terms quite a few times.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Irrespective of what you personally did, your monitoring was not what the person did for the purposes of ascertaining whether or not he should be a target, your monitoring was what car does he drive, what security arrangements are there in the people's homes, what are their habits, what time do they leave for work, what time do they come back from work.  Those are not matters - you don't deserve to die or not to die, having regard how you spent your daily routine, from a Security point of view, why were you interested in these things if not for the purposes of eliminating the people that you were monitoring?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: All the detail that you've just provided us with, I cannot say it in any better way.  Seen in the light of the person's profile, they would then eventually possibly become a target.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let's take the instance of Mr Bruce White, where did the name Bruce come from?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a name that was given to me by my structure.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  We know that his name as Roland, but of what possible importance was to monitor what motor car he used?  That would not have been helpful as to whether he deserved to live or die, but rather monitoring as to how best to kill him.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, he already had a profile, so the monitoring of what type of vehicle he drives once again led us to a next point which was his address ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: His what?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: ... which led us to a next point, his residential address.  This is now hypothetical, this is not what happened, I'm saying this hypothetically.  So from there on various aspects will flow from it and at the end of the day all this information will be combined and then a decision will be made.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) in the diary that has been produced in court?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not see it personally, the name was just given to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR LAX: Mr Bizos, sorry, just one second.
	I understood that when you were given a project or the preparatory work for a project, that in fact invariably the suggestion for what kind of action would be taken came from the operative himself.  The operative made the suggestion to the Regional Manager or the Co-ordinator.  That's what I understand the situation to be.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That could possibly well be so, Sir, but that would merely be a suggestion and it would be open for discussion.

MR LAX: But you see, just to pick up on what Mr Bizos was asking you is, if you were going to monitor somebody you'd want to know with what object in mind, because simply to get an address is one thing, to confirm an address for the purposes of maybe launching an attack, you'd want to look at the premises, you'd want to ascertain whether that was a suitable place, you might want to look at his workplace, work out if there was an opportunity there, you'd want to do an evaluation of whether that was a suitable place to launch an attack or a suitable place to break his window or a suitable place to beat him up, not so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct Mr Lax, but we did not have this information ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just listen to the rest of my question.  So in order for you to do that evaluation and monitor him in this way, because you were given an address and you were given a photograph with regard to Mr Chikane, for example.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: With regard to Mr White you were given a bit more than that I think.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: An address and ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Also just an address and a photograph?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right.

MR LAX: Okay.  So surely you would have had to say in your mind, okay, what exactly am I doing this for?  So that I can be effective and deliver what's expected of me.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Can I answer you?  That was the beginning phase, it was in such an early phase that I could not say that, we had nothing to work with, so we had to collect additional information before we could form an opinion about what my suggestion would be concerning this person.

MR LAX: Just to follow up, did you know the person's profile already?  Had that been determined?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I knew that he was busy with left-wing activities, what the nature of it was I cannot really comment on, but he already had a profile that highlighted him as a possible target.

MR LAX: Well according to the diary he was a priority target.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is why they probably gave us the names to see what their movements were and to collect additional information, who he socialised with, who he met and what accompanied that.  That's how I saw it.

MR LAX: Yes.  And what did you understand by the word "priority target"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not know that it was a priority target.

MR LAX: Yes, but knowing now that it was a priority target, what was the difference between an ordinary target and a priority target?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The way in which I understood priority target was that you had to specifically work on that person over the shortest period of time, collect as much information as possible and to make a presentation afterwards.  That's how I understood priority, it was a priority target.

MR LAX: It wasn't that this was a target for elimination, rather than a target for some other lesser type of action?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, priority target does not necessarily say, or is a reference to the act that will be committed.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Sorry, Mr Bizos.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, would it be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment or do you want to finish the point that you made?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, you were known as Deon.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And White is your project in the diary, according to the diary.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Very well.