Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

HENDRIK BOKABA: Maybe it's not necessary, it is Hechter.

ADV MEMANI: That's even better, let's save time - tell us.

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is Hechter, that's Paul van Vuuren, Joma Masela ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Just one second, we're taking notes.  Paul van Vuuren?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is Hechter, Paul van Vuuren, Joma Masela and Danny Selahla.

CHAIRPERSON: One point I'd like you to clear up before we go on - when did this happen?  The year I'm more interested in not the precise date.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I would say they happened in 1987 if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  It seems the client - the app - the witness is still trying to answer your question, I don't know.  As the Chair pleases, I will proceed.
	Mr Bokaba, do you know if the applicant had been a member of the security branch at Bloemfontein prior to his involvement with Pretoria?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know.  He explained it to me for the first time when we met  that he was an informer.  I started to know that from him, that he was an informer in Bloemfontein, as whether he was a full member of the security branch, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: And you knew the applicant very well, isn't it?  He lived with you at barracks, isn't it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I used to see him at the barracks, I was staying with him at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: Did you see him at the barracks right through 1987 up to 1989?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I would not say all the time.

ADV MEMANI: But he was living there during 1987 to 1989?

HENDRIK BOKABA: He was staying at the barracks in 1987, that is the time when I said I saw him there.  You won't just always pay surveillance to a person as whether he's asleep or he's not asleep.

ADV MEMANI: But you lived there, didn't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I was staying at the barracks.  Yes, I was staying there at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: And you met him at the barracks in 1987, isn't it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know when you say: "we met", what do you mean?

ADV MEMANI: No, don't waste time.  In whatever sense, you met him at the barracks in 1987?

HENDRIK BOKABA: He came to me in - he approached me in 1987 to tell me that he wants to work at the security branch.  We met on that incident.

ADV MEMANI: And during 1988, he was living at the barracks?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't remember as to whether he was at the barracks or not.

ADV MEMANI: During 1989, he was living at the barracks?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't remember as to whether he was staying at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: Were you staying at the barracks during '88 to '89?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I was staying at the barracks but at times I was sleeping in the township.

ADV MEMANI: I don't care where you slept at times.  Now, during that time, during '88 to '89, you did not know whether Ngo was living there or not?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, we have an interest here suddenly in this particular question and I'd like to understand in fairness to Mr Ngo, precisely what the question entails.  I understand the question to
be a statement that Ngo was living at the barracks in 1989.  I would really like my learned friend if possible, to clarify that because that would have ramifications and implications on the evidence of Mr Ngo which he gave before you.   And he's put the question twice on the basis that: "I put to you that Ngo lived in the barracks in 1988 and '89".  
	And you will recall Mr Chairman, that one, evidence has been placed before the Committee that he was on suspension at the time, from the 3rd of January 1989.  He was in Bloemfontein admitted to hospital from the 5th to the 7th of January 1989 and he committed the murder on the 3rd of February 1989, so Mr Chairman, if the question is going to be on the basis of a statement that he lived in the barracks in Pretoria in 1989, we would have an interest in that.

ADV MEMANI: Well, save for the fact that my learned friend is misleading the Committee, there's no evidence that Mr Ngo was suspended, it was suggested to him that he was suspended.

MR STANDER: There is evidence before you Mr Chairman, it's in the affidavit - on paper and it is Exhibit P27 and there will be evidence as well Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now, will the witness answer the question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What the counsel asked is, are you putting that Ngo lived there for the whole of 1989?

ADV MEMANI: I did not say so, I said that he was living there during '87 and '89 - '87 up to '89, I did not say that - the entire year.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you asked him about ...[inaudible] and as I understood it you asked about '89 as a separate year.

ADV MEMANI: It is an unfortunate misunderstanding but the fact of the matter is that prior to his arrest, he was permanently resident at the barracks in Mamelodi.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, could you - you know when your client has been arrested, could you put it to the witness: "up to this day in February or March or April or whenever, he permanently lived at the barracks"?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now during 1987 up to 1989, Ngo  - early 1989, Ngo lived at the barracks.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't remember and then again, I cannot dispute that he was staying at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: You see, earlier on you told us that you lived with Ngo.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I said so, yes, then I said February 1987 he approached me that he wants to work at the security branch but from there I cannot remember well and I cannot dispute that he was staying at the barracks.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: By the way, when you met - when Mr Ngo approached you for the very, very, very, first time, did you know him before?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I used to see him before but ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Had you spoken to each other before?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Not at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Was it also in February when you went - when you took him - yes, you told us the following day you made an appointment with Loots for him to go and see him, isn't it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I said that I saw him then, then the following day I made an appointment with Colonel Loots, then I returned, then I took him to Colonel Loots - that is so.

ADV MEMANI: And this was during February 1997 - rather 1987?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is February 1987.

ADV MEMANI: And you told us that your application took three months to process from the time you had applied to join the security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I told you that it is so.

ADV MEMANI: And according to the record, Mr Ngo left reaction unit in May 1987?

HENDRIK BOKABA: What records are you talking about?  I don't
understand.  If the records are like that, I don't know.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: I'm talking about B ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: My learned friend is correct, it is P27, 6.  That is the one that is also at your - I think it's page 65 in the bundle B - 68 Mr Chairman, the last, yes.  I'm not chipping in, I'm just trying to be of assistance so that we can go quicker Mr Chairman.  It's at page 68 of bundle A, the last - B, bundle B, the last entry.

ADV MEMANI: Now, that would have - that is exactly three months from the time when you spoke to Ngo up to the time when he says that he joined security branch.

HENDRIK BOKABA: You said he left security - he left the unit in 1987, according to the records?

ADV MEMANI: In May, yes.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Where did you go according to the records?

ADV MEMANI: No, no, I don't answer questions from witnesses, I'm telling you now that, that would be three months after the day when you spoke to him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman in all fairness, my learned friend should put to the witness that on 18 May 1987, according to the record, he went to the college Hammanskraal Human Resources Management - according to this record on 18 May 1987.

ADV MEMANI: Now, do you see the coincidence?

HENDRIK BOKABA: What in what?  What is coinciding with what?