Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  General van derMerwe I am going to ask you questions in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be added as an exhibit?

MR DU PLESSIS: Please My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit B.

MR DU PLESSIS: B, as it pleases Your Lordship.  Generalvan der Merwe this submission that you have just made, a
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document has been attached to this titled "Conflict of thePast.  The role of the South African Police in the conflicts ofthe Past", whose document is this?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Yes that's correct.  This documentwas submitted by the four previous commissioners of which I wasone as already mentioned.  General Hennie de Witt, Mike Geldenhuysand Johan Coetzee, they are the others.

MR DU PLESSIS: And do you stand by the contents of thedocument?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Yes, completely.

MR DU PLESSIS: General I would like to take you to page10 paragraph 30 of this document.  I would like to start there.I am going to read this to you.
  "....war such as such an informer, agent carrying out theacts of espionage could expect to be summarily executed if apprehended. In this shadowy and often murky world the required high levelof secrecy involved often resulted in a partial or total lackof proper and effective communication.  The operator found himselfor herself more and more in a situation where mere survival becameparamount and the objective quite often justified the means. Members of the South African Police literally had to work nightand day in combatting resistance which by this stage encompasseda wide variety of different terrains.  Political leaders adoptedradical and quite often controversial positions which createdthe impression amongst their followers and subordinates that theywere expected to either promote or oppose revolutionary strategiesno 
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  matter...."
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  ...and eventually the removal of the dividing line between thatwhich was lawful and justified and that which was not".
 Then in paragraph 31 you say,
  "Therefore, understandable that although political leaderson both sides of the spectrum rarely issued direct instructionsor formulated a policy which would amount to a gross violationof human rights.  Most of the members who may have been guiltyof such violations sincerely believed that what they were engagedupon was done in furtherance of the particular aims and objectivesof their respective political leaders".
Do you stand by that standpoint?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I maintain that position.  I standwith that.

MR DU PLESSIS: You also then say, or the Generals sayin this document that,
  "Former commissioners of the South African Police who werein command of the South African Police during the period 1979to 31 March 1995 are of the opinion that with regard to thoseincidents and acts committed or carried out by members of theSouth African Police during the conflict of the past has illustratedin the preceding paragraphs..."
and then the important part,
  "...are morally obliged to accept collective responsibilityfor those acts or incidents".
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GEN VAN DER MERWE: /...
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GEN VAN DER MERWE: Yes I still maintain that.

MR DU PLESSIS: So if we understand you correctly, youand the other Generals, commissioners, say that during this period,I think it is General Coetzee, De Witt, Geldenhuys and De Witt,you say that you are morally obliged to accept responsibilityand that you are in fact doing so, to accept joint responsibilityfor the acts of policemen serving under you along with moral accountability?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now General if we can go back to yourown history, you said on page 1 of your submission that you werethe commanding officer of the security branch of the South AfricanPolice for the period 1 January 1986 to 30 September 1988, isthat correct?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could you briefly sketch for us, I havehanded a document to you, I don't want to submit this document,I don't think it's necessary but I would like you to just verybroadly sketch the structure of the security branch during thetime that you were at the head of it, what were the various divisionsand their various functions.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson we consisted of HeadOffice in Pretoria, 20 divisions with divisional commanders andapproximately 110 branches which included the border posts acrossthe country.  At Head office we had various divisions dealingwith various aspects.  For instance there was a division dealingwith members of the Black population, all activities relatingto them.  The next division related to the other population groupsand there was also a division dealing with interrogation of arrestedpeople.  A further division dealing with the Vlakplaas Unit establishedin
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1970 and which was aimed in terms of people arrested, to tracecertain members of the MK of people who were entering the countryillegally.  There was also a division dealing with strategic communicationmatters.  
 The divisional commanders were responsible for their areas andwithin those areas he was quite independent subject to the PoliceAct and Regulations and Standing Orders, because we were all partof the South African Police and rules and regulations issued byheadquarters from time to time and also the security branch headquarters. Apart from these it was also the divisional commanding officer'sresponsibility that all security aspects within their areas weredealt with.  They also had to coordinate all the activities undertheir command according to the rules and regulations issued. But because security activities were of such a nature that youcould hardly issue regulations to deal with each and every incidentand situation a lot of discretion was left to these divisionalcommanders.
 I may also mention how they liaised with the existing managementsystem.  The State Security Council was the body, under the chairmanshipof the State President and this body coordinated all securitymatters of national interest and then there was also the jointmanagement structure which was later changed.  The managementsystem had joint management systems whereby the various managersof the information societies were all involved so that there wasan overall coordination of the safety and security position inthe country.

MR DU PLESSIS: General, during the period that you werethe Commanding Officer of the Security Branch of the Police inthe Republic where in the hierarchy did Brigadier Jack
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Cronje, one of the applicants, where did he figure?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: He was the divisional commanderof the Northern Transvaal Security Branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: General could you please clarify for usby giving us brief background to the various groups and unitsinto which the Security Branch was divided? There was a GroupA, Group B, a Group C and also a Group D, E, F, G, H, I, J andK.  Could you just briefly sketch the background?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I could perhaps just indicatethat Group A consisted of various desks dealing with the Blackpopulation groups.  Personal cases were involved here, organisationsas well, and this was subdivided as far as the threat was concernedwhich varied between individuals and communities.  Group B dealtwith the White population group in more-or-less the same way.Group C, if I remember correctly that was Brigadier Schoon's groupdealing with Vlakplaas interrogation of people arrested, and alsothey dealt with executive tasks, and in that way they also liaisedwith the various divisions.

MR DU PLESSIS: Sorry General could you repeat about GroupB?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: B was the group dealing with theWhite population group.