Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

JUDGE WILSON: Now, he talks of a cheque for R1 200-00 not R200-00.

HENDRIK LEEUW: I am referring to the cheque to the value of R1 200-00.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, up to now you have been talking to me about R200-00, R200-00.  When I asked you if it was R200-00, you confirmed it was.  Do you now say it was R1 200-00?  R1 200-00?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I did not understand you properly.

JUDGE WILSON: You were the one who mentioned the value of the cheque.  You said he found a cheque for R200-00 on you.  It wasn't from me, it came from you.  Why did you say that if it wasn't true?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Maybe I erred in that.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there two cheques involved, one for R200-00 and one for R1 200-00?

HENDRIK LEEUW: There was only one cheque.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you exchange one cheque for money?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The cheque was supposed to be taken on Monday for - to be cashed, so I was told to come back on Monday to cash the cheque.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: For what amount was that cheque you were supposed to take back on Monday?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was to the value of R1 200-00.

ADV DE JAGER: And you received that for selling what coin, what kind of coin was sold?  Or was it different coins sold?

HENDRIK LEEUW: There were two Krugerrands coins, one was bigger, the one was a bit smaller in size.

ADV DE JAGER: And were they both sold for a total of R1 200-00?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw, do you have anything ... (tape ends)  Is that your case?

HENDRIK LEEUW: As I've explained I do not think there is anything that I want to add.

ADV MTHEMBU: Thank you then sir.

MS THABET: Mr Leeuw, where all the articles found by the police in all these different houses, taken by you from Mr Fourie's house?

HENDRIK LEEUW: These articles that were found there, they were the ones that we took from the house.  Those that they took from my house there where I stayed.  However, they took extra articles that belonged to me from my house.

MS THABET: I don't understand  you quite well.  Are you saying not all the goods were taken from Fourie's house, is that what you are saying?

INTERPRETER: He is not saying that.

MS THABET: What is he saying?

INTERPRETER: He is saying that the goods which he and his co-applicants had taken from Mr Fourie's house were found at his place, or the place of some of his co-applicants.   But the police in taking things that belonged to Mr Fourie, also took some items which in any case belonged to the applicants themselves.

MS THABET: Thank you.  No further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: Which articles were your personal belongings that the police confiscated or took with them?

HENDRIK LEEUW: There was a silver radio player that the police took and money to the value of R500-00 and some washing rags that they took along with.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, how - what was the amount of the money?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was R500-00, bank notes.

JUDGE WILSON: All they took that belonged to you was the silver radio, money to the value of R500-00 and some washing rags?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And that's all they took that belonged to you?  What about the knife with the black handle?  The hunting knife with the black handle?

HENDRIK LEEUW: They did not find it at my place, those were the things that we took from Fourie's house.  They gave me that knife but they cannot tell whom it belonged to.  At court or during the trial, they denied ownership to some of those articles.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been asked about it earlier where it was said it was taken from your house, a brown document case which had a black knife in it and you said that the knife was given back to you at court and you took it home, do you remember telling us that?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I recall that.  This knife was handed to me during the trial or at court.  They did give it to the police afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were specifically asked whether they took these from your home. Paragraph 22 was put to you.  After you supplied information they went to your house again and they got these things from there, are you saying now that didn't happen?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The police took these things whilst they were at my place.  They took these things when they arrived at my place, not that I gave them information where they would find these things.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they said you gave them information.  They went there and you handed it over to them.

HENDRIK LEEUW: I gave nothing to the police.  They out of their own will took these things from my house.

ADV DE JAGER: So they took this knife from your house, but you say it didn't belong to you, they only afterwards gave it to you at court?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: How did they manage to find it in your house because you agreed that they took it from your house and later decided it was not the deceased's and gave it back to you?  Is that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That is correct.  All those that we took from Fourie's place, they took along.  However, the relatives to the deceased denied  knowledge of the knife.

ADV DE JAGER: But was it your knife or wasn't it your knife?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That was not my knife, it was handed over to me at court because they didn't know anything about it.

JUDGE WILSON: What was it doing in your house?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We found this knife amongst the clothing or articles that were in the car.  The things that I took from the car and put them in  my house where the police found them, were I found Mishak May.

CHAIRPERSON: So you found the knife in the car and you took it to your house where you hid it somewhere?  Is that the position?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That is so.

ADV MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now we will call Mr May, Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr May, where were you arrested for this incident in terms whereof you are now applying for amnesty?

MR MAY: I was arrested in Section D.  I have since forgotten the number where they found articles that were in the car, together with the car.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now according to page 3, paragraph 13 De la Rey says he found the following articles in your person:  one brown wallet containing (a) R180-00 in cash, consisting out of three R50-00 notes, one R20-00 note and one R10-00 note, (b) one twenty dollar note and one ten dollar note, and one ticket on which personal detail of the deceased appears, one blue denim husky purse containing R7-18 in cash, small change, one Barrel golden mens' wrist watch with a black leather wrist band and engraved on the back as follows: RJ Fourie, from GMTS (indistinct) 8-8-1968.  Now Mr May do you have any comment regarding the statement by Mr De la Rey that he found these articles in your person?

MR MAY: Yes, there is something I can add to that regarding articles found in my possession.  I remember when Mr De la Rey ordered me to take off my jacket and this husky wallet.  I cannot recall but I had R10-00 and some coins.  The rest were found but not on my person, they were found in that suitcase bag which was brown, it had a zipper on.  The rest belonged to the deceased and they were in this suitcase at D Section where they found the car.

ADV MTHEMBU: But I see on page 6, paragraph 23, Mr De la Rey goes further and says that at house number 1187 F, the following articles were handed to him by yourself:  one bottle of lemon juice, one packet containing a cake mix, one roll of yellow paper, one ice brick.  And he goes on to say this was stored in a cupboard in a zinc house on the property.  Do you have any comment to make?