Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NORMAN ARENDSE: I'm referring Mr Chairman, to pages 46 and 47 of the record.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That I wouldn't be able to tell you because I don't know, I wasn't there Sir - I don't know why.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You weren't at court or you weren't at the restaurant at all?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Why I wasn't in court.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But you're sure you were there.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'm 100% sure I was there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you are the person that picked up your brother after he was - immediately after he had been shot?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I didn't pick him up, I stayed with him while he was in the gutter.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you the first one to get to him?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And not Mr Brodie?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So when he said that - when he says and I want to read to you in Afrikaans - page 47 Mr Chairman, line 6 onwards
"He returned to the front door and saw him lying in the gutter, he went to sit with him and took his head in his arms, the body was still warm.  Initially he did not realise that he himself had been wounded in the back of the leg.  He was taken to hospital where this light wound was cleansed.  He did not see the deceased Cerqueira briefly before the shooting incident"
Now, in that bit that I read, your name doesn't feature at all.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I don't know, I was there and then Benny came and sat on the pavement and quite correctly put his hands on his face and he asked me: "Is he gone, is he gone"? - those are the words he used.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You never used those words when Mr Prior asked you to relate to us what happened that night?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, about the firearm - your brother did have a firearm, we know that.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, he did.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was it your evidence that the police tested the firearm and the test established that he never used the firearm?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The police asked me if the gun was fired - Mr Brodie had brought the gun to me after I was outside with my brother he brought the gun to me.  There was a couple of policemen there ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Just talk a little loudly please.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: One of the policeman checked the gun and the gun hadn't been fired and he said to the other guy: "The gun hasn't been fired", all the bullets were in there according to the policeman - I didn't check the gun myself.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know where Mr Brodie got the gun from?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it possible that Mr Brodie could have picked up the gun on the pavement - on the side of the pavement where your brother was laying?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It might have been possible but I don't know.

NORMAN ARENDSE: It might then also be ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: When I got to the body - I got to my brother's body first, my pouch that I gave to Mr Prior over there was laying next to him - that's what was laying there, nothing else - I didn't see no gun, nothing.  Mr Brodie brought me the gun, it was a couple of minutes in fact five to ten minutes after I was outside with my brother.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it possible then that your brother may have had a gun as he went out?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: To my mind it's impossible, I didn't see the gun - I didn't see any gun, I saw the pouch there and that's it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Unfortunately Mr Brodie - maybe he will come and tell us what happened to this gun because his evidence is simply that - on page 46 and 47 Mr Chairman
"The vehicle moved slowly in his direction"
That's line 31 on page 46, that's now presumably in the direction where you were standing.
"When there was being fired on him he realised that this was being done from the motor vehicle, he swung around to run back in and dived behind the bar counter.  He called at Cerqueira to take the firearm held behind the bar counter in hand"
And then unfortunately he doesn't tell us anything further about the weapon, whether he in fact saw it there or not.
"Then he realised"
This from the summary:
"Then he realised that Cerqueira was not in the restaurant"
And then he went outside to the front door and saw that your brother was laying ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That's correct.  Like I said earlier on I dragged Mr Brodie in because basically he froze obviously from shock or being scared and he went over the counter, I went over the counter shouting for my brother and after going over the counter he went into the kitchen shouting for my brother, I was shouting for my brother - I was in fact looking for the gun because I was afraid that these people would come into our restaurant and shoot us as well.  I couldn't find my brother, asked the staff, the staff was in a panic, we came outside, I went there and my brother was laying there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So when you looked for the gun you couldn't find the gun?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I couldn't find the gun.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you know that the gun was hid under the bar counter.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He normally used to hide the gun - I wasn't aware where he had it, he used to keep it for himself.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you looked under the bar counter and you couldn't didn't find it?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I didn't look underneath the bar counter, I looked at normally on the table where he keeps other stuff and I looked at a box that sometime - what he does is or what he used to do, he moved the gun around because of staff and things like that and he would cover it with something, so I didn't know where the gun was that's why I was shouting for him to - I was basically shouting for him: "Jose, give me the gun or Joe, that's what we used to call him - "just give me the gun, give me the gun".

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is there any reason that you can think of why the police asked to have a look at the gun and to test the gun?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The police actually asked me if there was a gun, I said: "Yes, my brother's got a gun", I went in looking for it and: "This is the gun" and the one policeman took the gun, checked it - there was quite a few, I think four or five at the time, one in civilian clothes took the gun, checked it and the guy said the gun hasn't been fired.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And was that the gun that was brought to you or to the police by Brodie?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It was brought to my by Brodie and then I gave it to the police.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was it your evidence that you first heard something like a firecracker before you went outside?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, there was first two pop sounds - pop, pop, like that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The first, and then Benny walked out and I walked behind him and I still remember - recall saying to him: "It sounds like crackers" and he said: "Yes", and we went out.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And just tell us again, what did you see?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Well I heard - after those first two sounds, I heard more repetition, it sounded like somebody scraping an exhaust of a motorcar or something and when I came out, the car that I had seen going up was coming down ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: So you - just stop there, so you had initially seen a car going up?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.   I saw a car, the car slowed down at our door and go up and a couple of minutes after that, that's when we heard the popping sounds and we went out.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it the same car that you saw again later on coming back against the one-way?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, it looked like the same car.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Looked like?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, it was a dark car and looked the same as the - and it was heavy laden, the car at the nose was quite - like this.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And by then you had already heard this crackling sound?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Excuse me?