Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps it may be found that you have given me an answer to my next question but let me ask it, why did you not testify at the court a quo to make the Court know the actual truth against the other witnesses?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Mpshe do you really want to go into that, do you want to open that front?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I want to put the question for a reason, if I could give a reason.  The reason being that as it has been made clear by the panel when putting questions to the witness as to the contradiction between the evidence at the court a quo and what he says today, to make him put on record the reason why he behaved that way in the court a quo.  Unless if I would be opening a can of worms.  Thank you Sir.  Do you remember that question I asked?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is your answer to it?

MR MATELA: I knew already that any member of the ANC or the PAC, even if you say the truth in court you will be sent to jail, therefore I decided not to give any evidence, I knew that I was fighting a losing battle.

JUDGE WILSON: And after you had been convicted of murder I take it your counsel told you what the sentence could be?

MR MATELA: No he never explained to me.

JUDGE WILSON: But you didn't give evidence in question of sentence either, is that correct?

MR MATELA: He just explained to me that they will appeal for a lighter sentence.  He never explained in details the sentence itself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman that concludes my re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just enquire, Mr Manong what was he, was he secretary of the ANC or was he Chairman?

MR MATELA: He was the secretary.

ADV DE JAGER: And who was the Chairperson?

MR MATELA: It was Frans Mayekiso.  He was the one who was responsible for that specific part of the township.  Frans Mayekiso.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't you, when you gave evidence-in-chief say our chairman Mr Manong addressed us?

MR MATELA: If he was the second-in-charge, we start to the Chairperson and therefore if we do not find a chairperson we would resort to him.  He is the one who addressed us in the meeting.  He was listening to all our problems.

ADV DE JAGER: Was anybody else addressing you at the meeting?

MR MATELA: Are we talking about the day of the attack?

ADV DE JAGER: No when you were given the instructions to -ja was that on the day of the attack that Manong addressed
you?

MR MATELA: No it was during the week when we got that instruction not on that same day.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you get that instruction on which day?

MR MATELA: It was on that day of the meeting during the week, and on Sunday as well we also had a different meeting, but I did not attend that one, but during the week I did attend this meeting where they discussed the matters prevailing from the meeting before.

ADV DE JAGER: The killing was a Saturday, is that correct?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And on the day after the killing was there a meeting, the Sunday?

MR MATELA: I was arrested already on Sunday so I wouldn't be aware.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, now you speak of a meeting on a Sunday, was that the previous Sunday or the Sunday after the killing?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir, the previous Sunday.

ADV DE JAGER: The previous Sunday.  Who addressed you on that Sunday?

MR MATELA: It was Mr Manong, our Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: But he was a secretary, he wasn't a chairperson.

MR MATELA: I explained that he was chairing that meeting, he was trying to help us at that time.

ADV DE JAGER: Right.  And we've got the telephone number of Mr Manong here, is he still living in Kroonstad?

MR MATELA: No he's staying at Odendaal.

ADV DE JAGER: And I suppose he'll confirm that he gave you the instruction, or what do you think he would say?  Because in the hearing he didn't confirm what you are saying.

ADV DE JAGER: He should explain that he is the one who gave the instruction because everyone in the township is aware of that because he was chairing all the meetings.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What standard have you passed at school?

MR MATELA: I passed standard four.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When you are asked questions to which you don't know an answer you must realise that you've got the right to say you don't know, do you understand?  Because some of what the things you have said about Mayekiso and Manong is totally confusing.

MR MATELA: The person who gave us the instruction is Manong.  Mayekiso is the leader of the whole township.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Matela you know that there's been trouble  people have been killed, isn't that so?

MR MATELA: Are you referring about the people who were being killed?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.  People have been killed and there has been a lot of trouble isn't it, because people have been killed?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you expect Mr Manong to come and say anything which could put him in trouble, if he were called to come and give evidence, would you expect him to do that?

MR MATELA: He is aware of all these even ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Can you give the full translation please, the first part of the answer.

MR MATELA: He was fully aware ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Can I repeat the question.  Do you expect Mr Manong to come and say something which can put him in
trouble?

MR MATELA: No Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know Mr Sigopa, Sibulayi Justice Sigopa?

MR MATELA: I saw him for the first time in court.  I only knew his name in court.  I saw him in meetings but I didn't know his name.

JUDGE WILSON: I merely wanted to raise one point that he in his application said,
"Thami Shlobo, Mr Sereti and other marshals ordered the killing of those victims".
Would you like to comment on that?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

JUDGE WILSON: In his application for amnesty when he was answering on the question whether the act was committed in execution of an order, he said,
"Thami Hlobo, Mr Sereti and other marshals ordered the killing of those victims".
you have said that marshals didn't give orders, he apparently had a different view, would you like to comment?

MR MATELA: I disagree with that when Sigopa said that me and Thami gave the instructions that these White people should be killed.  We only get instructions from the Chairperson of the ANC.  We don't give out instructions personally.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you started your answer saying I did agree with him when he said I gave those instructions, I may have misheard.  There is nothing further you wish to say about that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Nothing further to add Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But may I just mention that as the learned committee member referred to the document wherein Mr Manong's position is mentioned, I could not make use of the information because this is what is said by the Investigative Unit it will not have any evidential value in this hearing, but he was telephoned today as to whether what he said here is that his standpoint, and he said yes and then he said he cannot come but what is written here is what he knows.  Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: But he can be subpoenaed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes he can be subpoenaed if the Committee wants him to be present.  He is a telephone call away.

JUDGE WILSON: What did you say he said that he agreed with what is said here, what's that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is reported here about himself by the Investigative Unit ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: On the third page.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On page two, page two towards the end of the page.

JUDGE WILSON: Oh, going into the second page.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where it says "we met Mr Manong"...

JUDGE WILSON: Well that really doesn't - we'll adjourn now until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS