Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-17

MR MHLABA: So is it your case that in carrying out this operation you genuinely believed that you were furthering the interests of the African National Congress?

MR MOSIA: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: Is there anything you want to add to the Committee in support of your application, other than the facts which you've already put before the Committee?

MR MOSIA: I'm happy that this Committee has afforded me this opportunity that I should meet the members of the deceased whom I did not know so that I can ask for forgiveness from him for what had happened.  It was not my intention, that is how things were during the apartheid days, we were involved in a war.  Police were fighting against the community and the community were fighting against the police.  The police were in cahoots with the IFP in killing members of the community.  I am therefore thankful to this Committee for affording me this opportunity that I'm able to meet members of the deceased.

MR MHLABA: I am noting in paragraph 9 - I'm referring the Panel to page 7 of the paginated bundle, paragraph 9(a)(i) of your application forms where you indicated,  you identified the act or omission or offence as murder whereas you have indicated here from the evidence which was tendered it would appear that there were two counts of murder and also you indicated that you used to possess firearms which you did not have a licence to carry.  Is it your desire to bring an application to the Committee to amend your application form to include the other count of murder as well as the unlawful possession of a firearm.

MR MOSIA: The person who helped me to fill in this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, do you wish to amend your application form to include the two murders and the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition?  That is the question, do you wish to?  Because it only says one murder here, or it only just mentions murder, do you want to amend it to include all the offences that were committed by your group and yourself on the 5th of June 1993?

MR MOSIA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection, Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: No objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No objection, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mhlaba, we'll then amend the application form accordingly to include all the offences committed on that day and also in respect of which the applicant was convicted of.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that concludes the testimony of Mr Mosia.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: I've been requested to have a short adjournment.  I think I'd like to finish this application though, the evidence seeing that we, is there going to be other evidence to be called?  We may as well find that out now.

MR MHLABA: There is no other evidence from the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, do you intend calling other witnesses?

MR SESELE: ...(inaudible) the issue up with the families and then I'll come back to the Committee immediately thereafter, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at this stage if we could then just take a very short adjournment and then we will conclude the evidence of this applicant today and then decide whether if there is further evidence whether to continue today or tomorrow.  But we'll take a short adjournment at this stage, just 10 minutes or 5 to 10 minutes, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SOLOMON MOSIA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I do have some questions and then I just want to indicate that I won't be calling any other witness hereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SESELE: When you were recruited into this SDU by Mr Mohomane did you know whether you were going to be operating underground or be known to the community?

MR MOSIA: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it you could repeat what you said now Mr Mosia, because the interpreters couldn't hear what you were saying.

MR MOSIA: I was known by the community that I was a member of the SDU.

MR SESELE: You say you knew of the pending case against Mr Mohomane and he knew of it before the 5th of June 1993.

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct, I knew.

MR SESELE: When he told you, were you the only two or were there other members of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MOSIA: We were at my place.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, did the other members of your unit, your Self Defence Unit, know of the pending case against your commander?

MR MOSIA: The were people but he told me from the side, no people heard what he was telling me.

MR SESELE: Did he also not tell you - did he also tell you who was handling that case?

MR MOSIA: He did not tell me about the person responsible for the investigation of that case, he told me that he was arrested and he received bail for the robbery case.

MR SESELE: Did you attend regular meetings with Mr Mohomane and the other unit members?

MR MOSIA: Yes, because they were attending those meetings in my place.

MR SESELE: At page 10 of your application, at page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 11(a) it is stated as follows
"At meetings which were held at Phuthaditjhaba Hall and stadium, it was declared that Qwa Qwa Police were enemies of the people.  There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC but we acted upon the declaration."
Were you present at such meetings at the hall and at the stadium where the declaration was made?

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SESELE: Who made such declarations?

MR MOSIA: That is Steve Potlela.

MR SESELE: Did Mr Mohomane make any such declaration also?

MR MOSIA: Yes, he did.

MR SESELE: What do you mean when you say there was no direct order from any leader of the ANC?

MR MOSIA: What kind of instructions, Sir, or order?

MR MOSIA: In this paragraph that was referred to in your application it is said, and I'll read from it, this is paragraph 11(a) as it appears on page 10 of the bundle and this is what your application states
"There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC."
And now what Mr Sesele is asking you is, what do you mean by that?  
	Is that correct?

MR SESELE: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOSIA: The order came from Mr Mohomane who was the commander of the Self Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what you've said but what did you mean to say when you said in your application form
"There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC."

MR MOSIA: Maybe we had a misunderstanding with the person who was helping me to fill up this form.

MR SESELE: Who was helping you to fill the form?

MR MOSIA: That is comrade Mongesi.

MR SESELE: You have also submitted a letter to the Amnesty Committee, and that is page 13 of the bundle.  The last paragraph, second sentence reads as follows
"We acted on behalf of the ANC.  We were carrying out orders from our authorities, that is why I justify my crime as a political one."
Do you remember making such a statement?

MR MOSIA: Yes.

MR SESELE: And this letter is dated the 29th of June, whereas ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's 1998.

MR SESELE: ... whereas your application form is dated the 26th September 1996.  Now between the two dates how come you further submit this letter wherein you now allege that orders came from the authorities in the ANC?

MR MOSIA: It's because I received a letter from the TRC.  They were asking me three, four questions.  The questions generally were requesting that why should I say this act is a political act and then I should give them the case number.  That is why I wrote this letter in response to the letter I received from the TRC.

MR SESELE: I put it to you that your taking part in the killing of the two police officers was an attempt to get the investigating officer off Mr Mohomane's back.

MR MOSIA: I don't identify myself with that armed robbery case because I don't know anything about that.