Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

PROF DE KOKER: You said you had this hand grenade under your T-shirt and when you threw it, you saw that nobody - you made sure that nobody saw you, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you make sure that nobody could see you throwing this hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: After I saw that it was difficult for somebody to see what I had - I took care that nobody could see what I had under my T-shirt.

PROF DE KOKER: How do you throw a hand grenade so that nobody can see it?  Can you demonstrate how you did it?

INTERPRETER: The witness is demonstrating by pulling out the pin and then throwing it overhand.

WALTER SMILES: And then I went and lay down because I know a hand grenade when it explodes could hurt me too, so I went and lay down.

PROF DE KOKER: What you demonstrated now - for the purposes of the record, is how the pin is removed from the hand grenade and then you knelt somewhat and  you demonstrated a bowling action?

WALTER SMILES: That's correct.

PROF DE KOKER: How could you perform an action like without anyone of the 150 people there seeing you?

WALTER SMILES: Just explain that to me again.

PROF DE KOKER: You said you threw that hand grenade but made sure that nobody saw you.  What you just demonstrated was very visible, you could easily see it.  With 150 people around you, how could you say you threw it so that nobody could see it?

WALTER SMILES: The people were all concentrating on the memo's and that's what happened.

PROF DE KOKER: Where were you standing when the hand grenade was thrown?

WALTER SMILES: There was a little tree at that place where I was standing when I threw the grenade and it fell into the corner.

PROF DE KOKER: How many people were between you and the front of the building?

WALTER SMILES: I can't estimate, it must be quite a lot.

PROF DE KOKER: Where was Major Mbatha standing at this stage?

WALTER SMILES: He was standing in front.

PROF DE KOKER: Who gave you the signal to throw the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: That was Major Laurens Mbatha.

PROF DE KOKER: How did he give you the sign?

WALTER SMILES: The sign was when the marchers were returning, then I had to throw the hand grenade but unfortunately when I threw the hand grenade that was when the security guard came out and the hand grenade hit him in the face.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles, that was the instruction, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: That's correct.

PROF DE KOKER: But in your evidence you referred - evidence which you gave in Kimberley last year, which I may quote directly - page 40 of bundle 2
"When it was time to hand over the third petition, then there was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he lay down at the same time"
Who gave you this signal to which you referred in your statement?

WALTER SMILES: I imagined it was him but it wasn't him, I realised that afterwards in the TRC.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you come to realise that what you'd said here was wrong?  You were drawing a picture here to the TRC, was somebody giving you a signal and falling down?

WALTER SMILES: What I'm trying to say is that I'm the one who lay down.

PROF DE KOKER: The evidence was quite clear on this point
"There was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he laid down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak"
So this person to whom you refer cannot be yourself.  According to your statement there was a signal first, the person fell down:
"So when I threw it I was weak"
Only then did you throw it - you couldn't have referred to yourself there.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you get the signal from Major Mbatha?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I did receive it.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you receive it?

WALTER SMILES: The sign ...[intervention]

PROF DE KOKER: How did he signal to you that you must throw it?

WALTER SMILES: He said to me I must make sure that nobody could get hurt.  At the time when I threw it I had to take care that nobody could get hurt.

ADV DE JAGER: Either you're not understanding it or maybe you don't want to answer the question.  Let's look at it carefully, you got a signal
"There was a sign that I must throw"
There was a sign that you must throw the grenade:
"And he lay down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak"

WALTER SMILES: That's correct, I was weak.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, who gave you the signal?

WALTER SMILES: Major Laurens Mbatha.

ADV DE JAGER: And what was the signal?

WALTER SMILES: I had to take care that nobody should get hurt.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, how did he give that signal, with his hands or what?

WALTER SMILES: No.

ADV DE JAGER: I've got another problem with this answer of yours because you say
"Laurens gives a signal to throw - I imagined it was him but it wasn't him"

WALTER SMILES: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Then it must have been someone else?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's what I've explained, it wasn't Laurens who lay down.

ADV DE JAGER: Then who was the other person who gave the signal and lay down?

WALTER SMILES: Laurens gave me the signal- it was my time.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he give the sign to say it's now the time, you must throw?

WALTER SMILES: Because I knew that when the - he said the doors had to open and then I had to throw it inside.

ADV DE JAGER: Now please explain because I can't understand it.  You said: "Laurens gave the signal to throw, I imagined it was him but it wasn't him", who was it?

WALTER SMILES: Just explain to me please.

ADV DE JAGER: You said: "Laurens gave the signal to throw, I imagined it was him" - that was the question, did Laurens give you the signal - "I thought it was him".

WALTER SMILES: I'm not quite clear about what's going on here.

ADV DE JAGER: I also don't understand that's why I'm asking what do you mean by this?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain it to me very carefully that I can understand it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: In what language did you testify?

WALTER SMILES: I testified in Afrikaans.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you at the HRV hearing say at any time that Mr Mbatha gave you a signal before throwing the hand grenade into the building, did you ever say that?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I did say it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you say that if you are now contending that that is not what actually happened?

WALTER SMILES: It is what happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What happened, are you saying that you got a signal from Mr Mbatha to throw the hand grenade?  Take your time Mr Smiles, the evidence that you are giving here is very important and it is a fundamental requirement to your application that you should give a full disclosure by that you must be honest.  So, we want to know, did you or did you not get a signal from Mr Mbatha to throw a hand grenade into the building?

WALTER SMILES: I did get a signal.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So the evidence that you have just led now should be disregarded and we should now accept that you got a signal from Mr Mbatha and it was as a result of that signal that you threw the hand grenade into the building.  Is that the evidence that you want us to accept now?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he give the signal?

WALTER SMILES: The signal was that when the marchers were leaving and the doors were opening, I realised that this was the signal.

CHAIRPERSON: We are moving in circles it seems to me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Smiles, have you been listening to what we were saying to you?  We are getting very confused with your evidence.  You are here to make things easier for us and not to make things difficult, we need to know the truth.

WALTER SMILES: Can I just have a break for two or three minutes because I'm a little bit confused.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We will afford you a break because please it's very important that you must tell us the truth.

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Madam.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And don't come with a truth which is going to be negotiated around circles.