Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I'll get to the point.  At that stage she did not tell me exactly who they were, she only mentioned the gang.  Sergeant Fouche then started working together with her.  The reason why I used Sergeant Fouche was because in September the previous year he only started working at the Detective Branch in Sasolburg and then he was unknown with the Black areas in the Vaal Triangle and nobody would have known that he was a police member.  The rest of my unit was well known in the Vaal Triangle, specifically the Black areas that is.
	All the information which I found afterwards was coming from Fouche and also from De Lange and on certain occasions a Black man with the name of Joseph who worked with Fouche.  De Lange now acted as Fouche's informant and like I've already told you all the information afterwards was reported to me by the two of them.  I trusted Fouche, he informed me that he was taken to the gang and he was introduced as her brother with the name of Brown.  Sergeant Fouche reported back to me but most of these people were trained M.K. members and this issue was also confirmed by Elsa and once again I'd like to assure you that I trusted the information they gave me.
	On a certain day Fouche brought me a 635 Baby Brown Pistol as well as a 12 cartridge shotgun and these were weapons which he bought from these members of the gang.    Your honour these weapons, I tried to find the owners by asking questions at the National Weapon Register.  The 635 mm was not stolen, it was licensed under the name of Mr Elderley and was the same with the shotgun, it was not registered but I would like to tell you that the series number on the shotgun was removed and another number was engraved on this - M992.  It was known to me that it was similar to which the Municipal  Component of the Police in Sebokeng marked their weapons.
	Fouche assured me that the weapons were bought with his own money.  They also told me that AK47 weapons were available and we had to try and refund him from state funds.  Fouche a day or two later arrived at the office with a red coloured Toyota Corolla vehicle.  This vehicle, allegedly he also got this from the so called gang members.  He went and placed the vehicle on the computer.  It was indicated that this vehicle was robbed on the 23rd March in Heidelberg, Transvaal.
	Fouche also informed me that the gang did not only accept him as a member of the gang but he also believed that he was De Lange's brother but he did not take his appointment or weapon with him.  I was very concerned about Fouche's safety.  De Lange also then came out with a lot of other information regarding the smuggling of AK47 weapons.  My district detective officer, Swanepoel, I kept him informed about all this information which was available to me.  I also told him of the weapons which we already received by then and I was not going to go and look for the owners of the weapons because they were not reported as stolen and I thought that these people might be involved with the smuggling of the weapons.
I also told him about the red Corolla and I told him that the gang worked with this car everyday and that was there reason why we did not take possession of this car.
	One morning Elsa de Lange contacted me when I was at office and asked me to come and speak to her at her home.  Fouche accompanied me to her house.  It was in Danie Theron Street in Sasolburg.  There De Lange showed me a 765 Walter pistol and handed it over to me which she got for her own protection from one of the gang members.  I determined that this weapon was taken in an armed robbery where the weapon was stolen in kwaGuqa.  Fouche a day or two later came to me and asked me if he could take back the 765 pistol because the gang members were asking after it.  I gave him the pistol.  De Lange also gave me several other pieces of information with regards to this gang, mostly concerning weapon smuggling and armed robberies.  They also informed me that they take these weapons to Lesotho where they exchange it for diamonds and then they buy more weapons with these diamonds thus it was quite clear to me, you honour, that there was no financial gain with regards to this but it was only concerned with the distribution of firearms.  At a certain incident Fouche also told me that in the Black area of Zonkezizwe in Heidelberg they cannot just go in there but would have to give certain indications by using the lights of the vehicle or certain signs to show that there was a great amount of weapons, mainly AK47's, available within that specific Black area and that these weapons are used in order to cause political violence within the townships and also in order to arm the self defending units.
	He and Elsa, at several occasions, they had to fire with these AK47's in the Black townships in order to stay in the favour of these people.  The impression I got was that they basically just fired these weapons, they didn't fire at anybody, they just fired them.  
	On the 3rd April Fouche informed me that the people wanted to commit an armed robbery in Sebokeng.  Members of my unit and also of murder and robbery in Vanderbijlpark and also of the security branch in Vereenging, all of these people I brought together at the old Golden Highway close to Everton where we wanted to stop these people and arrest them.  This action continued right through the day and it was unsuccessful.  Fouche came back and said that they might want to go and rob a certain place but this also did not happen.  Nothing came of it.  Fouche asked me, that he was looking for the 635 pistol because the gang wants this weapon back.  He went to my office at Sasolburg where I agreed with him that if he arrived there he must contact me.  I spoke to him and I was worried because if he's going to hand this weapon over because there was a planned robbery according to the information he gave me.  He assured me that he would damage this weapon in order ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you concerned Mr de Ru?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your honour, because I did not want people to be shot with a weapon that was in our possession.

CHAIRPERSON: But the way I understand is that they had various AK47 rifles with them, they were in the business to sell weapons.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct your honour.

CHAIRPERSON: And a small 635 pistol is not very important.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes but the impression that I got was that they were looking for this weapon to use this as part of the robbery.  He assured me that he will damage this weapon in order for it not to be able to be fired.  Nothing came from this, this information.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask you - do you know how he damaged this rifle?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I do not know.

MR MALAN: Do you know if he knew how to do it?  Did you ask him if he knows?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I did not.

MR MALAN: He was a sergeant and you did not know him for very long, you knew him only for six months?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes but he worked at Sasolburg for the Police for a very long time.  He worked from '85 when I arrived there so I knew about him a long time before.

MR MALAN: But did you not say that you decided to use Sergeant Fouche because he was not well known in Sasolburg?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I would just like to rectify that.  He was not well known as a Detective in the Black areas.  He worked in the Police garages so he was not a person that appeared in the Black areas at all.

MR MALAN: So he was a technical officer at the Police?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.  He repaired vehicles.

MR MALAN: He never went out on any investigations then?