Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

ADV DE JAGER: Before we start, could I make a request.  Could you kindly put counsel's name and attorney's names before them, at a later stage, so that the moment it sometimes slips your mind and you don't know whether it's Mr Jakobs or Mr Swanepoel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we resume after a substantial adjournment in order to afford the legal representatives and others an opportunity to sort out a confusing state of affairs.  I trust that that has been done.
	In the meantime I understand that two of the mentioned victims have appointed counsel to attend to their interests in the matter and I understand also that the Inkatha Freedom Party has engaged him to look after their interest as well.
	I want to point out that the Inkatha Freedom Party is entitled to have done what they did to look after their political interests.  Membership of any particular political party does not as a matter of course, lead to the interest of individuals being covered.  It remains for the individual to do what is necessary and give necessary instructions if that person so desires to get representation and give instructions for his or her interests to be attended to.
	Mr Xaba, you will have noticed that Mr Swanepoel is now in attendance at this hearing.  You mentioned Mr Msizi during your testimony when we last sat.  I'm going to ask you a few questions in order to put him in a position to equate himself with the material issues of your testimony, do you understand that?

MR XABA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you did testify that you were a member of the ANC and South African Communist Party, correct?

MR XABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And your application for amnesty entails two crimes, correct?

MR XABA: Which one, which crimes are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm asking - you remember you said it involves two crimes.  I will deal with that now.  You said attempted murder and arson, correct?

MR XABA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were in the company of three other people when you committed those crimes, Messrs Baloi, Majeko and I think it's Dlamini, is it?

MR XABA: The only people I've mentioned was Perry Dlamini, Jerry Maju, Bafana Baloi and then the others died.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said that no-one in fact gave you the orders to commit this crime or these crimes, you took your own initiative as a group.

MR XABA: Yes, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you committed these crimes at Mandesa Street I think, in 1990.

MR XABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that the reason why you people did what you did was because Mr Msizi was seen to be a township councillor bringing hardship to the community?

MR XABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you want to add to that, anything to your testimony or are you done?

MR XABA: No, nothing.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, Judge, if I may.  According to my notes the applicant also stated that he was the leader.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR XABA: Yes, I've also mentioned that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Before I give anybody else a chance to ask questions, I'd just like to clarify certain issues.  How did you burn this house?

MR XABA: We made petrol bombs.  After we finished making them we went straight to Mr Mzizi's house.  We started checking the situation and the police were not there.  Usually they were there.  Then we threw the petrol bombs and then we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Now did it matter to you whether Mr Msizi died as a result of being burnt out in that house or what?

MR XABA: As I've already mentioned, Mr Msizi was one person who'd bring hardships in Thokoza and other people lost their houses because of him and that is why people were dying in Thokoza.  Therefore if Msizi died in that house, it was a job accomplished.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about his wife, did you worry or did you concern yourself as to whether she died or what, or his children or anybody else?

MR XABA: What we were sure of was that we first looked around the house, there were no police, there were no children and his wife as well wasn't there.  Msizi was the only person.  His children were not there and his wife as well wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the house burn down?

MR XABA: Yes, the house burnt but not everything.

CHAIRPERSON: And you testified that once  you people threw the petrol bombs inside the house, you escaped?

MR XABA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: At what time of the day or night was it?

MR XABA: It was at night, something about 9 o'clock, between 9 and half past nine.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there any lights burning in the house?

MR XABA: No, I can't say that.  We just threw the petrol bombs and then we ran away, there was no time to check the damage.  We left immediately.

ADV DE JAGER: But you said you've checked whether his wife and children were there.

MR XABA: Yes, that's correct.  Before we work or before we do this kind of job, you first check whether the people are there or the children are there.  So most of the time Mr Msizi didn't used to stay with his children, the children used to stay at Mandela section.

ADV DE JAGER: But now I've been asking you whether there was any light burning in the house, whether you could see, could you see whether his wife and children were there or couldn't you see in the house?

MR XABA: As I've already mentioned, I went there first to check before we could throw the bombs, and I checked, I discovered that the wife and the children were not in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you see that inside the house?

MR XABA: Yes, I saw the children and the wife leaving at about 7 o'clock, Msizi accompanied them and came back.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you threw the bomb, did you know whether the children and the wife were in the house?  It's about two and a half hours after.

MR XABA: As I've already mentioned, there are people in the same street who are watching Msizi's house, so I came earlier to check with them that, if the children and the wife came back.  They told us that no, they didn't come back, only Msizi came back.  So I knew exactly that he was alone in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, have you got any questions?

MR SWANEPOEL: If it pleases you, Mr Chairman, not at this stage.  I would like to take instructions on what has just been said, and maybe return at a later stage with any questions but at this stage I have no instructions on questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, anything?

MS PATEL: No, thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MAKANJEE: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xaba, you are excused but will you please remain in attendance.  We will tell you when you can go, because Mr Swanepoel may have questions for you.  Do you understand?

MR XABA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused for the time being.
WITNESS EXCUSED