Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Soon after he was placed with us it is usual
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MS KHAMPEPE	297	D COETZEE
procedure to just make sure that there is no - for them to observe his behaviour when on weekends out with the rest of the Askaris, maybe in the evenings out with the rest of the Askaris, to just keep an eye on him and get his opinion as far as the behaviour of the relative Askari is concerned.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If you had caused an investigation, a proper investigation to be conducted, to find out whether indeed Mr Moema was a security risk, do you think you could have found yourself facing a disciplinary inquiry?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it didn't work that way in our culture.   I can assure you that.  My duty was to report to my superior and in the (indistinct) they will decide how forward on from here and that was it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But didn't you know that Mr Vermeulen had an attitude towards blacks, Mr Coetzee?  You knew that Mr Vermeulen had an attitude towards blacks?

UNKNOWN: Absolutely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He hated - in your manuscript you make reference to the fact that he fanatically hated blacks.

UNKNOWN: That is true, 100% correct and I knew that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And this was a person who was making a suggestion that this person must be removed.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you still went along with that suggestion without in fact advising Brig Schoon who was not residing at Vlakplaas, who did not have the relevant facts about the operations of Vlakplaas.

UNKNOWN: We fell directly under Brig Schoon's command and we reported directly to him.  I was not on a unit on my own in security headquarters, but fell under the Section C command of Brig Schoon through which I received my orders,
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MS KHAMPEPE	298 	D COETZEE
by whom I was briefed and debriefed, and who had to take decisions who was coming to the far.  I couldn't decide which Askaris was to come to the farm.  I just had to report back to him and he decided.  I couldn't go against that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there anything which prevented you from advising Brig Schoon to cause such an investigation to be conducted?

UNKNOWN: As a Brigadier in charge of Section C I think it wasn't my duty to advise him.  I think it was common knowledge by such a senior officer who was on that desk long after - I think for a period of eight years - several commanders after me served under him.  He was an old Security man and I think it wasn't for me to sort of tell him or suggest to him what I should think he should do.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you feel no responsibility for one of the men who were under your command?

UNKNOWN: I did feel responsibility for them, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you've told us this was a nice, intelligent man, so why didn't you speak up on his behalf?

UNKNOWN: I did speak up and this fact I think worsened it because it more supported the fact that from their point of view and our point of view that he was a plant and not fitted in with the rest of the Askaris.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Coetzee, perhaps the question I am going to ask you now has been covered by the Committee members, but I will ask it for completeness sake.  In your application you state that although I personally indicated that I did not want to do the killing myself and then it goes on, why did you not want to do the killing yourself?
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UNKNOWN: /...
MR MPSHE	299	D COETZEE

UNKNOWN: I can't give any specific reason.  I was not 100% happy in the way it was dealt with but it was not in my hands.  Koos Vermeulen volunteered and Brig Schoon gave him the go ahead and it was not for me to go against superiors.  I wouldn't have been on Vlakplaas any longer.  I would have been seen as posed - or being a security risk, with my knowledge of the farm being transferred from the farm as a result of that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can it have been that one of the reasons perhaps is because you felt this man was resourceful and intelligent you didn't want to have anything to do with his elimination?  Is that not possible?

UNKNOWN: It is difficult to say what went through my mind, Mr Chairman, at the time.  I could just make out when debriefed in exile by Mr Jacob Zuma that this was a very highly respected and highly trained ANC officer in the Intelligence.  But at the time as I say, I just didn't see my way fit and open to do it.

UNKNOWN: In fact, Mr Coetzee, you've told us you've never done it.  You've always stood by and instructed somebody else to do it.

UNKNOWN: There was always volunteers.  I always said right through this hearings, Mr Chairman, that I am just as guilty, just as responsible as all the men under my command, but as all officers we were sitting on our backsides because there was enough non-commissioned officers who would volunteer to do the necessary work, whatever has to be done.  And in a case where it comes to shooting and Koos Vermeulen is present, like in the P Dambusi(?) case, you never had to look for volunteers.  Koos was there to do the job.

UNKNOWN: What was Koos Vermeulen's rank?
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UNKNOWN: /...
ADV DE JAGER	300	D COETZEE

UNKNOWN: A Captain, but by one year my junior as it works in the police set-up and so he fell under my command.

UNKNOWN: So you could have instructed him not to do so.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Especially if it was left in his discretion.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  That is why I say I am just as guilty as all the other parties involved, especially the men under me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't it so that the true reason why you had reservations about his killing was that you yourself was not exactly convinced that this man was disloyal, was a double agent?

UNKNOWN: I would say yes, Mr Chairman, although I had my reservations and it did worry me a little bit.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But surely if you were convinced you would have had no hesitation in approving of his killing?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, and that is why I because of my reservations I suggested that we discuss it with Brig Schoon and take it from there onwards.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Didn't the flimsiness of the evidence as it were against him trouble you?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it was always difficult for me as a result of the (indistinct) to know what exactly - I knew nothing about his debriefing, what he was involved in, by whom he was captured and what his debrief involved.  And I was for sure not there to question superiors who did the necessary debriefing and go into detail.  I was there to express my concern to my superior who was Brig Schoon.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But the way I understand you Brig Schoon did not in fact give an order that this person be killed.
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JUDGE NGOEPE	301	D COETZEE

UNKNOWN: If he in our language, I might just refer you again, Mr Chairman, if necessary, to our way of speaking and the way we understand things, as I put it in the Mxenge trial I think, if he says to Captain Koos Vermeulen, as he did, do as you seem fit, and that means nothing else but if you want to then kill him, you suggested that we assassinate him, go ahead with that.  Koos Vermeulen couldn't have understood anything else from that meaning of words but only just that ....(intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But that surely, Captain, that's stretching it a little bit too far out of the common sense.  If a person says in ordinary life do as you see fit, surely we understand him as saying that well, the discretion is yours.  If you feel that this man is a danger kill him.  On the other hand, if you don't want to kill him, then don't.  Surely that's what it means?

UNKNOWN: He said to him do as you seem fit and as I said, knowing Koos Vermeulen, that meant one thing only, kill him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But if Koos had not killed him Brig Schoon would not have queried Koos because he had not given specific instructions that the man be killed.