Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can I just interpose there Mr Hole, but insofar as Miss Msutwana is concerned the evidence before us, is that she was not particularly involved in the activities of Illisolomzi.  She was only related to a sister of Charles Sebe's girlfriend.  And there is no evidence also linking the sister to the activities of Illisolomzi.   How can you draw such an inference?

MR HOLE: Honourable Commissioner, if one recalls the evidence of these applicants they do concede that Miss Msutwana was a
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sister to a girlfriend of Gen Charles Sebe, but they go further than that, Honourable Commissioner, they say:  
"The Elite Unit had information that she was a contact between Charles Sebe and in that capacity she was being used by Charles Sebe to communicate between Charles Sebe and her sister."

SISI KHAMPEPE: There is no evidence that her sister was involved with Illisolomzi.   I mean for all that we can take care of is that we can take into account that the link might have been concerning the affairs of the heart.  I mean here was General - I mean, Mr Charles Sebe wanting to make contact with the sister in connection with affairs which had no relation to the political activities of himself as a member of Illisolomzi.

MR HOLE: I take the point given by the Honourable Member of the Committee, but if we were to look at the Act under which these people were detained, they were detained in terms of the National Security Act.   This is an Act which was passed to enable police, to give them extra powers to detain and question persons in respect with subversive activities.

JUDGE WILSON: But wasn't their main interest in respect of her to discover how the contact was made, who the contact people were who were bringing messages or taking messages to Charles Sebe, who was a very dangerous man in an adjoining country?   And that is what they wanted from her was it not?   Information as to how contact was made.

MR HOLE: That and much more perhaps.   One can imagine a situation where people did not have much information and they were looking for as much information as they can get.  If one looks at the judgment of Judge Pickard he sketches Charles Sebe's profile in a very distinct way.   This was the Commander General of all the Ciskei forces.  He commanded all their Army
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formations, the Police formations and this was the brother to the President.   He had defected to a neighbouring state, there were rumours of armed bandits being trained and there was even an infiltration and an attack on the President.
	Surely, you would not have expected the police to question her about matters of the heart.  Surely they would have questioned her about a pending assault on the President, about a coup, about army bandits who were being trained in a foreign country?
	Dealing with the further submissions by these applicants ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: I understand them vigorously questioning
Charles Sebe's lady friend to find out what information she has received, what information she is to pass on to his followers if he had any, but to extend that to a sister of this lady and to subject her to the kind of torture that she has been subjected to is something that cannot be easily justified.  They knew beforehand that she was merely the sister of the lady and if anybody had information it would be the sister and not she.

MR HOLE: That might be a point, Mr Chairman, but again I wish to ask the Committee to look at it against the background that in one of the affidavits by Mr Thoba. Mr Thoba says
"Soon they realised that they were not only dealing with Charles Sebe, but dealing with a more powerful organisation than themselves, an organisation that could even outwit, outmanoeuvre them."
	One get a situation where the police did not know where to start.   The police had no leads.  The head of the Elite Unit had been abducted, put in a car and taken to Transkei.   Mr Charles Sebe had been sprung out from jail by White people.  There was shooting.   One can understand the state of mind of these people.  EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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These were junior officers some of them.   At least they were not ranked like Gen Charles Sebe, like Gen Kwane Sebe or Col Panzi who gave all the orders.  The highest ranking seems to have been a captain, Mr Katangana at some stage and a lieutenant at some stage.
	One cannot impute much creativeness to them.  One cannot impute much sophistication to these people.  It appeared that the people that they got, namely these victims, they tried to extract as much as information as they could from them.   And in two cases the Committee already knows that they failed dismally, because it appears that these people did not know anything.  But what is clear Mr Chairman, is that the assaults on these people did not seem to be assaults that had no purpose.

HASSAN MALL: Didn't what?

MR HOLE: Did not seem to be assaults that had no purpose that was being tried to achieve.

HASSAN MALL: I thought that you said that the purpose was to instil fear.

MR HOLE: That and more, to instil fear and to get information if possible.   And in the case of Mr Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy the affidavits do say they did get some information.
	If one reads the affidavit of Makom one will see that he does say:
"There were reports, there was information that they gave about an attack on the President's house."

HASSAN MALL: Just give us a quick reference to ...(intervention)

MR HOLE: Mr Jonki Nkosi Makom.   I am trying to find the exact....

SISI KHAMPEPE: It is on page 6, at paragraph 36.