Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-06

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I apologise for the late start, but time had to be spent in setting up the hall and also in obtaining certain documentation.  We are due to be sitting in East London for the next four weeks, according to our schedule.  This week we'll be starting with the applications of Christoffel Pierre van der Westhuizen and Johannes Lodewikus Griebenauw.  	Before we start, I would like to introduce the Panel to you.  On my right I have Mr Ntsiki Sandi.  He is a member of the Amnesty Committee.  He is an advocate  from East London.  On my left is Mr Jonas, better known as JB Sibanyoni.  He is also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an attorney from Pretoria.  I am Selwyn Miller, a judge from the High Court attached to the Transkei Division of the Court.
	I would like please for the legal representatives to place themselves on record at this stage.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  I am Zuko Mapoma, the Leader of Evidence.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  The legal representatives for Mr van der Westhuizen?

MR KNOETZE: May it please you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Barnard Knoetze.  I appear on behalf of General van der Westhuizen, on the instructions of Messrs Wagener and Muller of Pretoria, but I also appear on behalf of the following persons:  Colonel Rusty van Rooyen.  His initials are AW.  General Johan van der Merwe, ex-Compol, General Johan Coetzee, ex-Compol, Brigadier Willem Schoon and Brigadier Sakkie van der Merwe.
	Now on behalf of Colonel van Rooyen and Brigadier van der Merwe I beg leave to hand up sworn statements that have been prepared for your convenience - they are not present, and they deal in these affidavits with the incidents in which they are being implicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Knoetze.  If we could then perhaps mark these two affidavits.  We'll mark the affidavits of Alexander Wagenaar van Rooyen as Exhibit A, and that of Izak Ferdinand van der Merwe as Exhibit B.

MR KNOETZE: As you please, Mr Chairman.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Can we read this affidavit later, during the lunch adjournment?  Is it not necessary to read it before we start?

MR KNOETZE: Yes, Mr Chairman, although we mean to deal with it at some stage during the evidence of General van der Westhuizen, so it depends whichever happens first.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  And Mr Griebenauw's legal representative?

MR AVENANT: My name is Paul Avenant.  I am an attorney from Bellville in the Cape and I appear on behalf of General Griebenauw.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Sir.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chairman, RD Claassen of the Bisho Bar, representing Mr PJ Fouche on the instructions of Squire Smith and Laurie.  I will be mainly holding a watching brief in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen.  Any other persons representing any implicated people or interested parties etc., in this particular hearing?  Mr Penzhorn?

MR PENZHORN: May it please the Committee.  For the record, the name is Penzhorn, Ernest JV Penzhorn.  I appear on behalf of the implicated parties, Mr PW Botha and General Magnus Malan.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you?

MR VAN DER HOVEN: Mr Chairman, my name is ABT van der Hoven from the Pretoria firm of attorneys, Rooth and Wessels.  I represent the implicated persons, General JJ Geldenhuys, ex-Chief of the South African Defence Force and the late General AJ Liebenberg, also ex-Chief of the South African Defence Force.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Hoven.

MR NONTENJA: Mr Chairman, I'm SC Nontenja from SC Nontenja Attorneys in Umtata.  I represent Chief George Matanzima and Chief Makoma.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nontenja.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Jansen from the Pretoria Bar, on instructions from Mr Julian Knight Attorneys.  I appear for a Colonel Hugo, GC Hugo, and a Major Martiens Ras, parties involved in other incidents in the Eastern Cape and who are interested in the general evidence relating to the Eastern Cape.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, I am Jan Wagener from Wagener Muller, Pretoria.  I appear on behalf of a person who has an interest in these proceedings, Mr WH Willemse.   He is a previous Commissioner of the Correctional Services Department.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wagener.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, my name is PG Prinsloo, from Port Elizabeth.  I am representing Brigadier John Moore and Colonel JPW Hall of the Defence Force.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo.

MR VAN DER HOVEN: Mr Chairperson, van der Hoven for the record, could you just allow me to just to place on record what we have agreed?  That our legal representatives here on behalf of the implicated persons, the fact that we will not take certain evidence in dispute or dispute that evidence will not necessarily mean that our clients agree with the evidence.  That has been agreed at a previous hearing with Judge Wilson in order to shorten the proceedings.  If that be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that will be in order.  Right, that will be the legal representatives.  Before we proceed, these proceedings will simultaneously translated into Afrikaans, English and Xhosa, depending on the language spoken by the witness.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS INTERPRETATION EQUIPMENT AND CHANNELS

CHAIRPERSON: It's also going to get quite warm today, so please feel free to remove your jackets if you wish to.
	We can then commence.  I see from my documentation the first-mentioned applicant is Mr van der Westhuizen, so we will then proceed with his application.

MR KNOETZE: As you please, Mr Chairman.  May I just also place on record that we have provided the Evidence Leader with a bundle of documents which we think it crucially important for our client's application and that he has undertaken to duplicate those and to distribute it and that he has been placed in possession of those documents already during the beginning of last week.  We didn't give it to him this morning only.  But, Mr Chairman, we also have further documents which are not as directly related but which we think he may perhaps think or yourself may perhaps think to be of relevance and that we've made available some further documents to him this morning with the purpose of entitling him to perhaps look through it and perhaps ask questions in that regard, should he so wish.
	Then I would with your permission beg leave to call General van der Westhuizen.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (sworn states)

MR KNOETZE: General, your application as it appears in the bundle - I don't know, Mr Chairman, whether you wish to give this bundle an exhibit number as well.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think it necessary.  This is the bundle that has been issued by the Commission, no.

MR KNOETZE: We would like to refer to it as the bundle.  The bundle contains your application from page 1 to page 40 and then 71 to 89 and 113 to 132.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Do you confirm the application?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I do.

MR KNOETZE: I may just indicate that here and there we will make certain corrections to the document.  If one looks at paragraph 8(a) of your application, under the heading of Section 22(b), in the light of the fact that you were a person who was in the service of the South African Defence Force at the stage when these acts were committed for which you are requesting amnesty.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: Please refer to page 2 and please indicate when you took charge of the Eastern Province Command.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: From January 1983 to December 1986.

MR KNOETZE: And was it mainly whilst you were so in charge that these actions took place for which you are now applying for amnesty?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.