Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Honourable Committee, as I said the government wanted to demean or stagger the process of negotiations.  As the SDU we were protecting the South African community, whoever it was, the oppressed.
	The soldiers at the time, that is what made us decide and we made that decision as we went to the funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: You still haven't answered the question, what was the decision taken at Durban?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We decided that as the members of the SDU, to humiliate the government of the day, to show them that what they did to us, was painful, to kill our people.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, at that time, did you decide what that humiliation would entail?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We said that we must go to our targets in humiliation of the government of the day, as it was any police station then, was a target of the liberation movement.
	We took that decision that Kokstad was our soft target as a police station.  We then decided to go and humiliate the government there with the deed that we were going to commit there.
	We were going to get there, take the police and their weapons.  Our purpose was to just leave these policemen in some obscure place because these were the people that the system trusted, they were their pillars of oppression and they were protecting the government of the day.  We wanted to demonstrate to the government how weak their security system was.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  Mr Nyembezi,  we are now, listen to me carefully and answer the question, we are now at a stage where you say you have taken the decision to humiliate the government.
	You have already mentioned, I must be corrected on that, you wanted to take the police and leave them at a far away place.  When you went to the said police station, how many of you had firearms?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: One person sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much, and who was that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Mr Nomatshizolo.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, the other three of you ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying there was only one firearm between the four of you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  The other three, that is you and the other two, what did you have with you?  What were you carrying?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Knives sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, did Mr Nomatshizolo fire with that firearm at the police station in Bongweni, Kokstad?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No.

MR NOTUNUNU: No, well at this police station, did any three of you who were armed with knives, stab or use those knives against any person, at the police station?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir, we did not stab anyone.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, to be clear on this, how many policemen did you find there, after you had entered?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Two sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Probably what time was it?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Around eleven o'clock sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Eleven pm or am?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Pm sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  We want now to have the picture Mr Nyembezi, of the police station in question.  What were these two policemen doing, I take it that there should a counter at the police station, blah, blah, blah, what were these two policemen doing at the time you entered the police station?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I am going to put it this way sir, when we got there and entered, as I said with Mr Nomatshizolo who was armed with a firearm, they first went in and then Ntikinca and Nyembezi went in after that.
	Mr Nomatshizolo would answer this question better than I, because he is the one who went in first.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, talk about the time you entered yourself.  At the time you entered, how were the two policemen positioned?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The one was behind the counter sir, and the other next to the heater, with their arms in the air.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  You have talked about arms having held up, were they both holding up their arms, the two policemen?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair, thank you Mr Chair.  Now, in paragraph 16 of your affidavit you have said we went in,  found two policemen, and we indicated to them that it was not our intention to kill them.  We further advised them that we were going to take them, go away with them and dump them far away from the police station.
	Who actually said this?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: All of us sir, I also said.   I tried to assure them that what we were saying was true, and they had believed it as well sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, whilst you were taking the two policemen, did they in any way show any kind of resistance or did they cooperate with you after you told them this?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: In the way we explained to them sir, they cooperated.   They didn't show any resistance.
	It seemed as if they trusted us.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, we understand, I understand there are also firearms that were taken from the police station in question, on the day in question.  Is that so?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is so sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Can you tell us about the taking of firearms, what can you say about the taking of firearms?  How did that occur?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It happened in this way, when we were inside and they held their arms up high, they said we must not kill them and they showed us where the guns were stocked and told us how we could get those firearms.  We told them, yes, we are going to take those arms, and take them too and explained what our intentions were, simply to insult and humiliate the government, nothing more.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Don't be fast Mr Nyembezi, please.  You are very, very fast.
	Thank you Honourable Chair.  Now, you took them, the police and the firearms, then you got them in the vehicle in which you were driving?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is so sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did you in any way have these two policemen tied?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We did not tie them in any fashion, we just left them like that.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, in the vehicle in which you were driving these policemen, can you tell the Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel, how you were in fact seated?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Luyanda and myself, we were in the front of the car.  Luzuko and Solomzi were at the back.  It was a panel van sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: And the firearms you had taken from the police station, where did you put them?  Did you put them in the cab with you or did you put them in the bakkie with Luyanda and Solomzi?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The guns sir and the police, Luzuko and Solomzi were at the back, on the floor.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, what happened thereafter?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We continued sir, going towards Umtata.  We then branched off towards Bizana. We just wanted to take them far off in an obscure place where it would be difficult for them to go back home.

MR NOTUNUNU: And then?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: As we were driving sir, our car started jerking whilst we were going towards Bizana.

MR NOTUNUNU: Yes?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were still trying to figure what it was with the car, we sort of sensed that the car was jerking even more.

MR NOTUNUNU: Okay, proceed.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: As we were sitting there in front of the car, we heard a sound, a gunshot.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now you heard a gunshot.  And then, what happened?  Were you by this time still in the cab of the vehicle in question, that is yourself and Luyanda?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.  We were so shocked and surprised.  We stopped the car right there and then, took cover because we didn't know what was happening.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see, who was actually driving the motor vehicle in question?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Luyanda sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see, Luyanda was driving.  Now, there you are, the jerking of the vehicle, there is gunshot, firing of a gun, then you said you took cover.
	What do you mean by that, did you come out of the vehicle Luyanda was driving, or this cover you are talking about, did you take it inside the cab?