Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  When we adjourned on Friday, it was indicated by Mr Dehal that Mr Lecordier would be giving evidence this morning.  Also just, Ms Kooverjee has been excused for a short while, but she will be joining us later.
	Mr Lecordier, do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: (affirms)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Perhaps before we begin, may I just hand these statements out, which are Mr Lecordier's drafts.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That will be Exhibit S.

MR DEHAL: Mr Lecordier, you have a copy of your application for amnesty before you, the application which is contained in bundle A1 and marked pages 195 to 201.  Do you see that?  These pages.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I have that.

MR DEHAL: Do you confirm that that firstly is your application?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Were you aided in the completion of this application?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Who assisted you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Mrs Paula McBride.

MR DEHAL: You see contained in your application, apart from the list of the acts for which you seek amnesty and a list of victims, your political motive.  Do you see that?  You have that on page 197 and it continues on page 199 as your political objective that you sought to achieve.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Do you confirm that as correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: And on page 199 continuing onto page 200, in paragraph 10(b) continuing to 11(a), (b), (c), you have your justification for regarding such acts, omissions and offences as having a political objective.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: You confirm that is correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr Lecordier, before we begin with your general statement, is it correct that you were for the main, in regard to the various acts for which you seek amnesty, a member of the McBride unit?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, yes.

MR DEHAL: That was an MK unit, was it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, it was.

MR DEHAL: And you worked closely with Mr Robert McBride.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Greta Apelgren, Derek McBride, Allan Pearce and Marcel Andrews, Sharpley are all known to you.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, they are.

MR DEHAL: Is it correct that you all lived in the Wentworth area?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Lecordier, I haven't asked this of anybody before, but I was just wondering, did the unit its own name at all or not?  Because I've heard that some units carried a name.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: At first, Mr Chairman, we were known as the Fairvale Unit.  That was before I joined MK.

MR DEHAL: And when you joined MK, at the Robert McBride cell, did that have any name?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The way Robert - I remember Robert explained to me it was Special Operations.

MR DEHAL: Now arising from all these acts you came to be arrested by the Security Police.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: In the main, two trials ensued, amongst a few minor trials.  The two main trials were that of State vs Robert John McBride and Greta Apelgren, now known as Ms Narkedien.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.

MR DEHAL: Parallel to that was the trial of State vs Derek McBride and Antonio du Preez.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: With somewhat the same counts in each of those two.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You were a State witness in those trials, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Then there were some smaller trials, like State vs Allan Pearce and Marcel Andrews and Others.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You were not a State witness in any of those, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Against Allan Pearce, yes I was.

MR DEHAL: You were.  I see.  And against Marcel Andrews?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

MR DEHAL: Now your being a State witness, was that of your own choice?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, it was not.

MR DEHAL: You deal with that in your statement, and we will read that shortly.  Before we again - sorry, finally, before we deal with your statement, is it correct that you have now reconciled with Robert McBride and all these other gentlemen that I've spoken of?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I have.

MR DEHAL: And the Wentworth community have largely embraced you and taken you back.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.

MR DEHAL: Now I take you, Mr Lecordier, to your statement.  You begin in paragraph 1 - perhaps I'll give you this copy, there were some typographical errors in yours.  You begin in paragraph 1, dealing with the background political education.  Do you mind reading that into the record.
MR LECORDIER
"I was brought up in Wentworth.  Antonio du Preez, Allan Pearce, Robert McBride, Greta Apelgren, Marson Sharpley, lived in Wentworth at the time."

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Lecordier, do you mind speaking slower, there are interpreters interpreting this.