Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did you make this transition from being amere Task Force member to being a member of

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<UNKNOWN>: ?

<UNKNOWN>: s I'vealready said before, in our meetings, P

<UNKNOWN>: meetings,

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<UNKNOWN>: NYO meetings and TaskForce meetings, there would be

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<UNKNOWN>: members, although we were not aware of that.It would happen that they will pick right people, those who they saw a rightpeople. They will approach you in a certain way, but you would not be awareof that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were the other people who went with you on attack,all members of

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<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, everybody who was there.

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<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE How do you know that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I know because we wouldbe in

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<UNKNOWN>: meetings together.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Who was the person who gaveyou your orders regarding training?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I was trained by a manwho came here by the name of Vusi, that is the name I know.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what role did Mr Makoma play as a trainer?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: We were trainingtogether, we were doing physical training together. Roadworks and all that training.

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<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE So Mr Makoma was not your trainer, he merely trained with you?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: We were training together.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So if I referto paragraph 8 of your affidavit, then there is a mistake there in that it saysMr Makoma was a trainer of

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<UNKNOWN>: , then that is not correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: How did you ask the question before?

<UNKNOWN>: ouldn't a trainerbe training together with you, running with you, training with you, althoughhe is in charge of the operation, the training operation?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is possible, I think however, it is an important distinction and we mustascertain which one it was.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't understand whether youare challenging his membership of

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<UNKNOWN>: , or whether you are challenging Makoma'smembership of

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<UNKNOWN>: , because if you are not ...

JUDGE WILSON: No, Makomawas an trainer, now he says he wasn't. What you are challenging isn't it, isthat in his affidavit he said I was a member of the

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<UNKNOWN>: unit of which Makomawas a trainer, he has now said Makoma trained with me, I was trained by somebodyelse.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is correct, that is what I am trying to clarifyin any event.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, shouldn't you probably try andascertain from the witness what kind of training was given by this man calledVusi?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That may be a relevant factor, but I think firstlyit is important to establish what Mr Makoma's function was, was he a trainerin the sense of having some authority over this applicant or was he merely aco-trainee.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Put it to him that in his affidavit it is saidthat Makoma was a trainer, ask him whether that is correct or incorrect.

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<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Was Mr Makoma your trainer, did he have authority over you, orwas he merely someone who trained with you?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I would liketo ask a question. Which training are you asking about, because we were trainingtogether with Makoma doing physical training.

JUDGE WILSON: Did Makomatrain you in any sphere?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: It is not clear to me, to trainme how because he was a trainer in physical training.

JUDGE WILSON: Whatdo you mean by that, did he show you how to do things?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Wewere training together, because in physical training we would come with differentexercises.

JUDGE WILSON: Who would show you the exercises? Who would tellyou what to do?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: In physical training, each person wouldcome with his or her exercise because nobody would know each and every physicalexercises available, one would come with a different physical exercise and wewould do it all together.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see, I want to read to youa sentence from your affidavit which says I was a member of an

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<UNKNOWN>: unit ofwhich Makoma was a trainer, is that correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, that iscorrect.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Right, you may carry on from there.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: m I correct in saying that the person you knew as Vusi, was yoursuperior, he was the one who was the most superior person responsible for yourtraining?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Which training?

<UNKNOWN>: ny training thatyou can think of. Why are we engaging in this kind of hair splitting exercise,any kind of training.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I can say that Vusi was training us,he was the one training us, was the one giving us military training.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let's move a little faster than that.

<UNKNOWN>: nd inthat training you trained with Mr Makoma as well?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: In militarytraining?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Yes.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is Vusi the same person known as Nonxuba?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You don't know? Did Vusi go on the attack with you to St James?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, I think the explanation was it is not Vusi.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Oh, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Not, that he doesn't know. I hope you got the righttranslation.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I got the translation he doesn't know.

MSKHAMPEPE: It is incorrect, what he said was "no, Vusi wasn't."

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<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: nd Vusi, he did go on the attack with you though?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, he was not.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: He was not on the attack.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When you were instructed about this operation you wereto go to, which you say you were later told to go to the Transkei and collectweapons for, who told you about that operation?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I was toldby Vusi.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you say he told you nothing about the operation?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, he did not.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you discuss this withMakoma at any time?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I didn't.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Youwere training together, but you didn't discuss anything about this proposedoperation between each other?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I don't remember.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So you may have discussed between each other, you just don't remember?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: We did not discuss anything apart from discussing within thatweek that there was going to be a certain mission, before that week, we didnot discuss anything about St James.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: In that week, didyou discuss St James?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, we did not discuss anything aboutSt James.

JUDGE WILSON: I think you said during that week, we did discussabout a certain mission. Is that so, there was going to be a mission?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what did you discuss? Did you discuss what thetype of mission was going to be?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, we did not discussthat.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did you then discuss about the mission?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: We did not discuss anything about the mission, but we were toldthat there was going to be a mission.

<UNKNOWN>: s I understood you,you said in the week preceding the mission, you did discuss it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the word "discuss", might have conveyed a wrong meaning, youknow. They were told that there was going to be a mission. I think that is whathe is trying to convey.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you talk to Makoma about themission at all?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why not?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not know anything about the mission, so there was nothing to say.

JUDGEWILSON: Well, did Makoma talk to you about the mission?