Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: ... he pulled out a gun and pointed the gun in his direction, saying, he wanted to know why did he leave his post, meaning Samuel Kanaga, why did he leave his post.  Then he tried to explain to Mr Gerber that he went to the changing room in order to have a shower, before his relief arrived. Further he told me that Mr Gerber then took him to his office, took Samuel Kanaga to his office where he was then asked some few questions.  There was also some allegations which were made against, about the disappeared money and also the robbery.

JUDGE WILSON: You have talked twice now about this disappeared money. Was that money that disappeared that night, the night of the 20th and 21st?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The money disappeared on the 17th of May, which was the robbery in the basement, and also the second money disappeared between the 17th and the - the 17th of April and the other moneys disappeared between, meaning the 17th of April and the 21st of May.

JUDGE WILSON: It was found on the 21st of May that it had disappeared.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, during that time.  There was an investigation pending about that money.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Then while I am busy talking to him, then Mr Gerber then entered the office.  He wanted to know what did Samuel tells me.  Then I said no, he denies the allegations, he says he knows nothing. Then Mr Gerber started - because Samuel was wearing the karate suit, he started kicking Samuel. Then Samuel was screaming, saying that Mr Gerber must not assault him, because he knows nothing and I must beg Mr Gerber to leave him alone.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And this happened in Mr Gerber's office?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: In his office.  And then later Mr Gerber, because he was screaming very loudly, during that time, some workers were about to report on duty, they were just maybe walking past the office on the passage.  He then left.

UNKNOWN: Who was screaming loudly?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Samuel Kanaga.

UNKNOWN: The deceased?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The deceased.  Mr Gerber then left the office and later came back with the branch manager which was Mr Roos and also other White staff, into his office, so they must come and see Samuel Kanaga.  And they sat questioning Samuel Kanaga, these other staff, they sat questioning also the deceased about the money and the robbery and the deceased then denied of having any knowledge about the disappearance of the money and the robbery.  Later they left the office of Mr Gerber and went to the reception of the security department, leaving me behind with the deceased.  After that Mr Gerber then came back, picked up the telephone so that seeing Samuel does not want to tell the truth he is going to call the Brixton Murder and Robbery so they must come and pick him up and then deal with him. Then he started telling the truth.
	He did pick up the telephone in my presence, while the deceased was also sitting there on the floor, and he phoned Brixton Murder and Robbery and there was no response.  In other words nobody did, I mean, answer the telephone at the Brixton.

UNKNOWN: How do you know that there was no response?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Because I was standing there.  He said there is no reply.  Well, anyway, I am not quite sure whether maybe he was phoning the Brixton, but he didn't talk to anybody.

UNKNOWN: And then he said to you there was no response?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, he told me that there is no response.  So the best way, he must try to make sure that we take Samuel Kanaga to the Brixton Murder and Robbery.  And then after that he called me into the reception again, security reception where he asked me if I cannot maybe try to get something to break the lock of the rear door, which he call the fire escape.

UNKNOWN: He asked you to break the fire escape lock?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, lock, and then I said I have become suspicious now, so why does he want me to break that lock at the back.  At the same time, still thinking about - because before that he was assaulting Samuel Kanaga, and then I started feeling bad now, because he is just, he was busy assaulting Samuel Kanaga and then later he wanted me to break the back door.  Then I didn't like it, since I am a former policeman, I know, I have seen the assault of, I mean, the police on the Black suspect. So then I start looking for the key holder.

UNKNOWN: In other words, you looked for the person responsible for the key to the back door.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, for the keys, yes. And then at the same time I did manage to get the person and then he opened the fire escape.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it correct, that person didn't work for your company?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, no, he was working for the owner of the building.

JUDGE WILSON: Your company didn't have keys to the door?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, no.  Then further Mr Gerber then instructed me to go and take my company vehicle, which I was using for investigation purposes, to bring it back into the alley, which means it is next to the fire, where the fire escape goes into the alley, it is not in the main street.

UNKNOWN: And that is the Mazda 626 you used?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The Mazda 626 which I was driving.   Then I went out to take the car from the parking lot and then brought the car to the alley. But before I went out, then my partner, who is now passed away, Julius Khosa, then came and asked me are we going out.  I said no, not today, we have got a special case which we have got attend to, just go to Mr Gerber and see.  I then, that was the time when I went to fetch my company vehicle.
	Then outside I waited inside my car by the alley. Then later I saw this Julius Khosa, the deceased, Samuel Kanaga and Frans Oosthuisen, coming through that fire escape door. Then getting with the deceased inside my vehicle. At the back seat it was the deceased, Samuel Kanaga and Julius Khosa. In the front seat, the passenger seat, it was Frans Oosthuisen.

UNKNOWN: And you were driving that vehicle?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I was driving the car.

UNKNOWN: Where to did you go?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: And I was then further instructed by Frans Oosthuisen to go now in the direction of the street, where as I stopped in the street, to wait for the other cars to drive past.  He then said to me I must follow Johan van Eyck, who was driving his (indistinct) bakkie, I must follow him, because we are going to Brixton Murder and Robbery.  Then we proceeded in the direction of, as we were driving down with Eddie Cavill.  So instead of maybe turning right, going west, the direction of Brixton Murder and Robbery, I saw Johan van Eyck turning left, going in the eastern direction.  Then again, my suspicion then became now further now, I start becoming worried again.

UNKNOWN: You became worried because the direction taken was not leading to Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly.

UNKNOWN: Where was Mr Gerber by then?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He was still in his office.  And at the same time, as we turned now into Smith Street,  going east, there was an instruction from Frans Oosthuisen, telling Julius that we must - Julius must tell the deceased to put a modified bank bag, in other words, it is a modified one, it has got a ...

UNKNOWN: Are you referring to the bank money bag?