Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

SISI KHAMPEPE: Wimpy was an aftermath after you had been informed that members of the Security Branch were visiting that place?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Absolutely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And are you able to tell us how many times these members were identified as having visited that particular Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: The report - well firstly, the security personnel works every day, seven days a week, and particularly Saturdays.  Head of departments on the Security Branch would in fact meet and give reports, so we knew that they were meeting frequently, almost every week.
	After that of course they would then go to whatever place that they would go to, but in particular in this case we are talking about the place in question, Wimpy, they then happened to go to.
	To add probably is that some of the detainees themselves, they used to order, if my memory serves me well, they used to order for detainees from Wimpy, if my memory serves me well.  But you would understand as I'm saying if my memory serves me well, because this thing happened more or less 9/10 years ago but I'm trying to strike a total recall and so that I would have a total picture.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In the reports that you must have received from Mr Ndlovu, were you able to be informed of how many black people visited Wimpy?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I can't remember, but yes, there was an information to the effect that blacks are in fact you know, some you know, eating in Wimpy but I can't clearly remember but yes, I think I do recall a bit where an information came to say they have seen blacks in Wimpy.

SISI KHAMPEPE: As an overall commander, was it not something that was of particular importance to you, to ascertain if the relevant people that you were targeting would actually be the main targets of the attack and that innocent would not actually form part of this attack?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well there are two statements that one has to probably try his utmost to address.  One, we were and are not a racist organisation, if fact we championed the course of non-racialism over the years despite the fact that there have been numerous cases where there have been only blacks were dying.  To that effect if you look at the Botswana raid, Botswana nationalists died innocent and so on, Lesotho, Zimbabwe and so on.  So in many cases in a state of war ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, I'm going to interrupt you, I'm sorry to be doing this.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I just want you to stick to responding to the question that I pose to you.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: All that I want to know is whether you did as the overall commander, take any precautions to ensure that the targets were the ones who would suffer mostly in this attack and that innocent people would not be the ones to suffer mostly in this attack?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well, I - may I be allowed to say that in terms of planning and executing any military or armed action, you look at the degree of the impact or effect that you would deliver, and it was clear in terms of the report that we would deliver a devastating, to a devastating degree in terms of our action.  So it is on that basis that we took the decision.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you didn't take any precautions to ensure that innocent people who were not the subject of the attack should not be harmed?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I think that question should be put to the enemy personnel who deliberately ...[indistinct] with innocent in return blame the liberating fighters for the victims or the injuries incurred.
	I would say in this case we viewed that and we regret where innocent lives, life for that matter because it's very valuable and previous, where innocents were caught in that kind of action, so we dearly regret.  However, we do not regret of delivering or carrying out armed actions that would annihilate the enemy personnel.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were a member of the MK from 1985, is that not so?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, I joined the ANC inside the country in 1984.  I went to Botswana late '85 for the actual joining of Umkhonto.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  And you are aware that apart from this particular incident there were also other Wimpy Bar incidents in the country which were conducted by unknown forces?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well, I'm not aware of that except the report that I read on the newspaper that there was one Wimpy, if I'm not mistaken in then Eastern Cape or something.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one occurred first, the one in the Eastern Cape or the one here in Benoni?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I don't know, it's only something that we took into account now recently after the unbannings and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know at that time that there was a spate of attacks at Wimpy outlets?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, no, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't even say whether the one in Benoni was the first or the last or whatever?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, I can't but I believe in fact we were not - I would imagine in terms of the, I think Benoni came first.  Whether that one came after and so on I can't strike a total recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, it didn't.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are saying, to your knowledge you are not aware whether there had been any Wimpy attacks before you launched your attack on this particular Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Absolutely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you report the outcome of this operation to the Botswana Front Command?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Botswana Front Command was a - in fact we reported to the MHQ, Military Headquarters.  But the question, in fact we relied largely on press on radio and TV at that time.  So it was on the basis of what we read that we would know as to the degree of the effect and so on about the operations and so on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, I'm just asking whether you did report this particular situation to the front command?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, to the military headquarters.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would that be different from the front command that you've referred to in your evidence?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, that would - there's a distinction or there is a difference between the front command and the military headquarters.  Like in our case, Johannes Nkosi Unit, we interfaced with Botswana Front Command as a service centre so to speak.  We would go to get some resources, information, update and so on.  But in terms of orders, activities and so on, we would deal with the military headquarters in Zambia.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And when you reported the outcome of this particular operation, did any personnel in the Military HQ say anything about the other operations that had been conducted on other Wimpy outlets in the country?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, at that time no, at that time no.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you are positive that you were not aware at all of the other attacks on Wimpy outlets throughout the country?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Not at all.  Like I said, it was only recently when one in fact read about that and I tried to verify and so forth and seemingly not even our people or MK members and so on were involved, but it was a recent thing.  But at that time, no, absolutely not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: After the operation was conducted were you able to ascertain whether any person from the Security Branch had been affected by this operation?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: It becomes very difficult.   At that time -I think I also indicated in the submission that what we relied on, we were a liberation movement, we did not have the resources, the machinery and so on to be able to gather that kind of information.  We would rely on the public, the mass media and so on.  But we didn't.  As a result we cannot deny or accept whether ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How would you measure your successes then?