Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR SEWPAL: Now there's various parts of that form which appear to have been left blank by you, are you aware of that?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes, I am.

MR SEWPAL: Why was that left in that fashion?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: The forms were delivered to me three days after they had arrived in prison and we were told that we should return them urgently.  Because I do not know English, I required somebody to assist me and we just filled in those details that we thought were important.

MR SEWPAL: And the evidence that you've given in court today, do you regard that as important?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes, that is what is important.

MR SEWPAL: And if you had the opportunity, would you have actually completed your form with the information that you've given today?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes, I would have.  I would have even asked for the assistance of somebody who could help me, because there's always a fear that if you ask another inmate who understands the language, they may fill the form incorrectly deliberately so you will remain in prison.

MR SEWPAL: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sewpal.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, just bear with me.

MR MAPOMA: When you hit the deceased with a pipe, was he still in a standing position, or was he lying?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: He was lying on top of my comrade and that is when I hit him twice on the head.  He was pressing the other accused down.

MR MAPOMA: And where was Mandla?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: He was turning the corner that he could see me as I was assaulting the person, because as I mentioned, we were standing at different doors which were not very close, so Mandla was just turning around to approach where we were.  After I had assaulted him on the head, Mandla then arrived and stabbed him.

MR MAPOMA: When Eric was giving evidence you were here, isn't it so?  You were inside this room.

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Eric?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Eric Tshabalala.

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you heard his evidence?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I did not hear all of it, but yes, I did hear bits.

MR MAPOMA: He said when you, at the stage you drank liquor, the body had already been mutilated and put into the boiler already.  What do you say to that?  Do you agree or disagree with him?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes, he was dead already but we had already cut out his body parts, but it was only after we had drunk alcohol that we took the body to the boiler room.

MR MAPOMA: His evidence was that you hit him, stabbed him, then body mutilated and put into the boiler and thereafter you searched for weapons.  Do you agree with him?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I would not say I agree because most of what I did happened after I had drunk.  Before that we killed him, removed the liver which we threw to the dog and the dog moved away from the vehicle.  Then Eric searched the vehicle.  We went to the house and we searched inside the house quickly and didn't find firearms, but just ammunition and a bottle of liquor which was next to the fridge.  We drank that alcohol and we left the house and we did not finish that bottle at that time.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mutshiako, this is very simple.  I'm saying to you the evidence of Eric Tshabalala is that when you drank liquor, at the stage you drank liquor, the body was already disposed of or put into the boiler, what do you say to that?  Is it correct, or not correct?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: After we had put the body into the boiler room, we went back to finish off that bottle of liquor.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, is your evidence now to the effect that because of the drunkenness you might have mutilated other parts of the body of the deceased person?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Well, the police said there were other body parts that were found, so I cannot dispute that because I was already drunk by that time so it is not easy for me to deny that I did do such an act because after drinking, you do not know what you do.  Even drinking that alcohol was just to get some courage.

MR MAPOMA: So you know at what stage the police arrived?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: They arrived at about 6 in the morning.

MR MAPOMA: And you saw what they did when they arrived?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: We were in the vehicle at the time and they pointed their firearms at us, so we froze there.  It was myself and Mandla at the time.  By that time I was wearing some overall because my clothes were bloodied so I had tried to wash them with water.  Mr Tshabalala was inside the house at the time.

MR MAPOMA: What were you doing in the car?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: There was a hole behind the seat so Mandla was retrieving ammunition from that hole and after that he also discovered a bag inside that hole that was full of ammunition.  The police confiscated all of that and some vehicle parts.

MR MAPOMA: So you recall, you have got a good recollection of what was happening at the stage when the police arrived but at the same time you have no recollection of what was happening when the body was being mutilated because you claim to have been drunk at that stage.  How do you explain this?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: There is a lot that I do not recall.  What I recall is the removing of the liver and the scrotum.  Other things I cannot remember because I was already drunk because it was spirits.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Mutshiako.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  When you arrived on the farm the first time, was there still light?   Was it during the day, in other words?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: It was at dawn, about 4.00 a.m.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions from the Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: I've got no questions.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just one thing.  What kind of liquor was this?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: It was colourless and it was a bottle as the applicant indicated.

ADV SANDI: Do you remember if any one of you suggested that there should be a mutilation of the body?  How did it happen?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: It is not easy to recall who came up with that opinion, because he was already injured, his intestines and liver were already exposed.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, can you switch that cell phone off, or if you want to switch it on, just don't come back in here.  Sorry, carry on.

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: We then decided that we should remove the liver because we could not otherwise remove the dog from the vehicle.  At that time we were still sober.  We did this and we threw it to the dog and that dog moved away.  We also cut out the scrotum and the penis.  This was to ensure that if the dog returned we would throw that to it as well, so that we could go to the vehicle.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain this.  The dog moved away to where?  Where did it go?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I think it moved further away to a distance where the arrow is.  The vehicle was about where I'm seated and it moved from there to that red arrow on the wall, that was when we were able to move closer to the vehicle.

ADV SANDI: How many dogs did he have there?  Was it a dog or dogs?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Just one dog.  It was a big dog.

ADV SANDI: It was barking at you, wasn't it?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: It just made a noise, it's just like the applicant is demonstrating, but it didn't bark.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this dog tied up?  Your fellow perpetrators say that the dog was tied up.

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes, there was a rope and it used that same rope to run down.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Sewpal, any re-examination?

MR SEWPAL: No re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mutshiako, you're excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sewpal, is that the case?

MR SEWPAL: That is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma.