Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that was my view as well, but after all that, after I was assaulted and my brother's death, I changed my views completely.  I did not even want to hear about the fact that she was referred to as the "mother of the nation".

MR VALLY: My final question relates to what you said in the statement that you believe that the assault had an effect on your child who was born later. Can you tell us a bit about this, please?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I do believe that. My child is not doing well at school.  He has been psychologically traumatised and he takes time to understand and reply. Even when I talk to him, he delays.  He can understand what I am saying but he will take time to act.  For an example, when I will ask him to take out a glass of water from the cupboard he will insist and ask as to where is the glass whilst he is looking at it.  Even when he plays with other children, he exhibits peculiar signs in behaviour.

MR VALLY: My final question.  How strong was the friendship between Leratodi Ikaneng and your brother Thole?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: He was our neighbour, next-door neighbour.  They were always together. Even at the time when he died, they were together.

MR VALLY: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you - do you have any questions?  Please identify yourself and then put the questions to the witness.

MR SOLLER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I appear together with Mr Miller. My name is Peter Soller.  May I put the questions to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Please do, yes.

MR SOLLER: Mrs Dlamini, you have told the Commission there were two separate assaults, is that correct?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is true.

MR SOLLER: Were you pregnant when you were assaulted the first time?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, I was pregnant.

MR SOLLER: Were you visibly pregnant?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, I was not.

MR SOLLER: Can you estimate the duration of the first assault. Was it brief or did it take an hour or two hours?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: You mean at the time when Winnie was assaulting me herself or you are referring to the Football Club members?

MR SOLLER: Let me refer first to the first assault.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: It was not a long time when I was assaulted. I think it was ten minutes when they were assaulting me inside the vehicle, inside the kombi outside her premises.

MR SOLLER: Was Mrs Mandela present when you were assaulted on the first occasion?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: It was Winnie herself who was assaulting me the first time.

MR SOLLER: And who else was present on that occasion?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: It was myself, Winnie Mandela and Shakes, the three of us in the car.

MR SOLLER: Did Shakes assault you as well?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No.

MR SOLLER: Can I make the deduction then that it was only Mrs Mandela who assaulted you on the first occasion?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SOLLER: Now how long afterwards did the second assault take place?  Was it a week, or was it a month?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: It was a week because they fetched me on Monday to assault me in the kombi.  The second time when Shakes ran away it was Wednesday or Thursday, during the week.

MR SOLLER: Now the second assault was, I think you've indicated to the Commission that that was also undertaken by Mrs Mandela, is that correct?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SOLLER: And you say that the duration of that assault was five hours?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SOLLER: Could you briefly describe to the Commission how you were assaulted?  Was your head hit, for example?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I was assaulted around the body on the face and they were kicking me on the body, but they never injured me on the head.

MR SOLLER: When you say, Mrs Dlamini, "they", who do you mean by "they"?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I mean the boys who were residing there, because she told them to assault me.

MR SOLLER: Did she personally lay a finger on you?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, she did the first time before we arrived at the house in Diepkloof.

MR SOLLER: You mean before you actually got to the five-hour assault you were assaulted on the way to the house. Is that what you are saying?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that's what I am saying.

MR SOLLER: And that that assault took place by Mrs Mandela?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.

MR SOLLER: Are you saying as a result of that extended assault, that's the five-hour assault, plus the first assault, your baby was born in an unhealthy condition?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, the baby was affected when I was assaulted the second time for as long as five hours.  That is why he is even affected to date.

MR SOLLER: Do you consider that the people who assaulted you knew that you were pregnant when this took place?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I had my maternity dress on, blue and white in colour.  There was no one who could claim I wasn't pregnant or I wasn't visible, not that I was pregnant.

MR SOLLER: Mrs Dlamini, Mr Miller wants to ask you something about your child. Mr Commissioner, may Mr Miller deal with that issue?

CHAIRPERSON: I was just wondering whether, because much of this has in fact already been canvassed, if you had specific points that had not been covered, then maybe you could put them to your client.  I am just a little concerned that - the trouble is that we were not aware that she was represented because then Hanif would not have lead her, you would have done so.  [Tape Side A ends] But I think he has covered most of the ground that you have re-covered and I just want to know whether there are other aspects which have not in fact been covered which you would canvass.

MR SOLLER: Mr Chairperson, may Mr Miller deal with that reply to your answer, please.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR SOLLER: May my learned colleague, Mr Miller, deal with that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.

MR MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I believe there's one point which I'd just like to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you identify yourself first, please.

MR MILLER: Sorry, the name is Michael Miller, Advocate. I am appearing for the witness.  Mr Chairman, I believe there's one point I'd just like to clarify, two little points actually.  The first one is you say that at the time of the second assault you were first assaulted by Mrs Madikizela Mandela and then later by others, is that correct?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MILLER: And why is it that the others assaulted you?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Winnie instructed them to do whatever they wished to.

MR MILLER: Now let's be a little bit careful here.  Did you hear Mrs Madikizela-Mandela speaking, uttering these words?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, I heard that.

MR MILLER: Thank you.  There is just one other aspect I would like to deal with, and that is your child. Your child was born when?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Was born on the 31st December 1988.

MR MILLER: So in other words your child is now just short of nine years old, is that correct?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes.  He will be nine full years in December.

MR MILLER: The 31st of December.  Now does your child attend school?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, he attends school.

MR MILLER: What standard is he in?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: He is in grade two.

MR MILLER: Can you comment at all on his academic progress?  Do you understand the question? Can you tell the Commission how he is progressing at school?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I am not satisfied about his performance at school because he is a slow learner in class and the teacher called me and told me this and told me how much of a slow learner my child is and his handwriting is not showing that he is in grade two.

MR MILLER: And this is the first time that he is doing grade two?