Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

MR WILLIAMS: We can do that tomorrow morning.  General Webb, would you agree with me that if people were to stand up today and say that we were part of the armed struggle, we were part of planting bombs etcetera, and attacking venues and elections, that that type of statement would stand them in good stead in the new South Africa?  Would you agree with that statement?

EDWARD WEBB: No, it wouldn't stand them in good stead.

MR WILLIAMS: In the sense that ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: It will not be a good standing for them.

MR WILLIAMS: In the sense that they can then claim to
have played a significant part in the, or a significant role in contributing to the demise of apartheid.

EDWARD WEBB: After eleven years it will be somewhat difficult.

MR WILLIAMS: No, but would you just agree with me that if a person says "Look I was involved in the armed struggle", that that could possibly be a window of opportunity to entering the civil service or to obtaining certain ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, what is the relevance of this line of questioning?  We really are wasting a lot of time.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether the General agrees with that proposition or not, it won't affect your argument will it, Mr Williams?  I can see what point you're getting at, that ...

UNKNOWN: And maybe evidence should then be obtained from the government whether in fact that is the criteria these days if a person is appointed to the civil service.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're trying to just extract an opinion from the General on something that he might be wrong about?

MR WILLIAMS: Ja.  Mr Chairperson, I must say that most of the things that I've prepared for have initially been covered by my ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well you don't have to cross-examine as long as Mr Bizos did, and we understand that and ...

MR WILLIAMS: I don't intend to do that, Mr Chairperson, but there are certain things that I want to cover without repetition.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So for that reason I would ask if I'd be allowed to prepare properly and continue tomorrow morning with ...
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS STANDS DOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hockey, are you in a position to ...?

MR HOCKEY: At this stage I don't have any questions that I want to ask.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure you can't continue, because I wouldn't like to lose time?  Maybe Ms Coleridge can then - are you going to ask any questions?

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I just want to ask a few questions in relation to Mr Joe Verster.

CHAIRPERSON: Would there be any objection to Ms Coleridge intervening this cross-examination now and then Mr Williams can plan his further questions?  Ms Coleridge, we'll intervene now and then you can ask and then we'll go back to Mr Williams.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you.
	We know that Mr Verster did not apply for amnesty for the Desmond Tutu incident, you're aware of that?

EDWARD WEBB: Excuse me?

MS COLERIDGE: Are you aware of the fact that Mr Verster did not apply for amnesty for the Desmond Tutu incident, the Archbishop Desmond Tutu incident?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know.

MS COLERIDGE: At page 199 of bundle A, Chairperson, at paragraph 1.5, this is the incident relating to ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: Just a moment please.  Page what?

CHAIRPERSON: 199, bundle A, paragraph - what?

MS COLERIDGE: Paragraph 1.5.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 1.5?  I don't have 1.5.

MS COLERIDGE: Page 199.  Have you got that General?  Can you just read out - this is in relation to the Archbishop Desmond Tutu's ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: In my application?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's your application.
GEN WEBB
"I gave the order to Joe Verster who was the Managing Director of the CCB at that stage, and according to my knowledge which I currently have, Mr Staal Burger and Abram Slang van Zyl were also involved in that."

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you General, that's fine.  So are you saying that you gave direct instructions to Mr Joe Verster in relation to the Desmond Tutu incident?  That's the Apie foetus.

EDWARD WEBB: I approved it, I approved the project.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, did you approve the project to Mr Verster.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: So would Mr Verster not be disclosing the full picture or the full truth of his actions in relation to the Archbishop, to the monkey foetus incident?

EDWARD WEBB: That you must ask Mr Verster?

MS COLERIDGE: But I'm asking you, General.  In your opinion ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: But I am not Mr Verster, please.

MS COLERIDGE: No but in your opinion as his ... you authorised ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, may I just get clarity here.  Ms Coleridge has just said that Mr Verster did not apply for amnesty in respect of the baboon foetus and now it's expected of this witness to comment on something for which there isn't even an application before the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the reason why he didn't apply, that's his own reason.

MS COLERIDGE: I take the point, Chairperson.
	In relation to the CCB activities, when did it come to a halt?

EDWARD WEBB: End of '89, early in 1990.  I don't have a specific date, Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: And when did you leave the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I was put on leave early in 1990.

MS COLERIDGE: And were there discussions relating to the CCB early in 1990 with the Chief of the Defence Force, etcetera, the Army, regarding activities of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: There was an enquiry, an investigation and the results of that enquiry was submitted to higher authority.

MS COLERIDGE: Sir, would you be able to say that the CCB activities definitely came to a stop during 1990?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Either late '89 or during 1990.

MS COLERIDGE: Correct.

EDWARD WEBB: All operational activities were halted.  That is what I was told, I don't know if it's correct but there were certain businesses and entities which still had to be dissolved, but the operational things all stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: But after you were put on leave in 1990, you didn't go back to your post, did you?

EDWARD WEBB: For a short period yes, and then I was transferred to another section.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I ask a question as a result of the cross-examination by Mr Bizos, which I want to deal with?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: General, you testified that the members of the CCB were subject to military code or the Defence Act, and that they could be arraigned before a Military Court.  I want to put it to you that you're wrong in that respect and that all CCB members had to resign, officially resign from the Defence Force and their involvement in the CCB was obtained by means of a contract based on a personnel plan which was drafted.  Are you aware of that?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

MR WESSELS: And it is on that basis which the relationship was regulated as between the Defence Force and the authorities and that specific member.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR WESSELS: So that should a person transgress the code, it wouldn't be necessary to have a or a Court Martial, but he could immediately be dismissed by Mr Verster, as in fact happened in the case of Botes and Mr Burger - not Burger, Barnard.