Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Did she ever take up this offer of a private security firm for herself?  You talk about Tulani security guards.
MR ?: The security - Tulani security guards were for the house, specifically their two houses.   (Indistinct) responsible for securing the services of Tulani security guards to assist in the maintenance of security during that time.  And for which we have just learned now that an account was (indistinct) and also that of construction (indistinct).  Archbishop you interrupted the Reverend Frank Chikane when he was talking about the construction costs which are still due to me.   And all those sub-contractors who assisted me in trying to repair those houses.

FRANK CHIKANE: Can we just emphasise for the record in terms of this question that the two houses which were secured by the Tulani security guards were the one which was burned and was being reconstructed and the new one.  Both of them were not occupied so we made provision arrangements so that the two houses would be secure.  So it wasn't security guards for herself in this particular case.

MR VALLY: I want to go to paragraph 22 of your document.

FRANK CHIKANE: Sorry, paragraph?

MR VALLY: 22.  Page 6.  When did this happen?  When did you first become aware of these allegations and when was denial made by Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela?

FRANK CHIKANE: Let me try to deal with time.  That is very difficult.  After these reports were made - I can't put a date on it but it was during January, early January.  Members of the committee went to the house in Diepkloof, the Diepkloof residence where Mrs Mandela stayed.  And that is where we explained and we talked to the family first about these allegations of children who were kidnapped and then thereinafter we were allowed to talk with the young people who were alleged to have been kidnapped.  At that time they were still in the house.  Some of them were still in the house.

MR VALLY: I am sorry I am stopping you here.  The reason I am stopping you here is dates are quite crucial because a lot happened in a short period.  I have given you full copies of Bishop Storey's submissions (indistinct).  If you look at page 24th January 1989. Aubrey Mokoena goes to - I must warn you sorry just for your records, the top of the page says mid-December 1988 and the 28th January should read December, 29th January should read December. Anyway we now - if you look at the item under the 4th January - I will read it out to you
"Aubrey Mokoena goes to Mrs Mandela enquiring about the abduction and is told that he is misinformed.  He does not get to see the children".
Did this in fact happen?

MR MOKOENA: I didn't go alone, Chairperson.  We went there as a team, it was not individual (indistinct)  except (indistinct) my expertise I would normally go there just to make sure that the material was there in time so that (indistinct).

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Mokoena I think the question is ...

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just (indistinct) it may sometimes be important that you give explanations but it is a very straightforward question, did you go?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I went.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, thank you.

MR MOKOENA: Except that, Chairperson, what follows here is not necessarily true.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not - they may, if they want to, canvass that they will canvass that but what they want to know is that on that day you went.

MR MOKOENA: I wouldn't remember the day that I went there on the 4th but I went there as I said (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, all right.

MR MOKOENA: (Indistinct).

MR VALLY: Did you ask for and were you refused access to the children?  I shouldn't say children, I should say did you ...

MR MOKOENA: Now I have got a difficulty in answering that question because it gives the impression that I went alone and as we have already have seen I would normally not go there alone and say can I see the kids.  It is not usual because I was (indistinct) because (indistinct) that one person (indistinct).  And then if I went there on the instructions of (indistinct) then I wouldn't (indistinct) to go and worry about the (indistinct).  So an aspect like this (indistinct).  I deny (indistinct).

MR VALLY: Mr Mokoena ....

MR VALLY: ... found out earlier that the Reverend Chikane that this youth had been abducted and as a personal friend that you may have gone to the house.   Is that possible?

MR MOKOENA: That is not possible.  I was called by (indistinct) and if I had known (indistinct) I wouldn't have (indistinct) but in this case here (indistinct).

MR VALLY: So you cannot recall when you first found out when these young people were abducted?

MR MOKOENA: (Indistinct).   No, I can't recall.

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, may I (indistinct).  If I accept that you say that you could not have gone alone and we accept that you (indistinct) I think the question is did you go to the house to ask to see these kids (indistinct) and then were you told that you had been (indistinct) and that in fact you did not get to see the children there?

MR MOKOENA: That question is out of character because I will say that the matter that we are dealing with was a very weighty one and it was not possible that what (indistinct) can be (indistinct) one person (indistinct) sufficient (indistinct) we decided to avoid such instances where one person may be exposed to one thing and the others not ...

YASMINE SOOKA: I am sorry to stop you in your full flow but I think I said that we accept that you didn't go alone and that you were working together.  So the second part of my question is did you ask to see the youth firstly, as a group, and then secondly were you told that you had been misinformed.  And then my third question is did you get to see the children.

MR MOKOENA: To answer your question yes in the sense of (indistinct) yes we did go there as a group to see (indistinct) and we saw the kids,  I mean the young people, and that is how we began to (indistinct) to find out how they got to come to the place and what circumstances (indistinct) to come there and that is how we even (indistinct) himself and got to know (indistinct) because we say that he broke down and confessed that he was actually working for (indistinct) and that (indistinct).

MR VALLY: Do you know what date this was?

MR MOKOENA: Beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: Do you know when this was that you met some of the youth and Mr Cebekhulu broke down and told you he was an informer?

MR MOKOENA: Did I know ....

MR VALLY: Do you remember which date it was.

MR MOKOENA: It is difficult to think of a date (indistinct) notes here.  It must have been in January if I am not mistaken, 1989.  Ja, let's go over paragraph 25 because  (indistinct) it is difficult to (indistinct) special form.  Yes, it is paragraph 25.   It was the 13th January 1989.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson, I just want to (indistinct) about the (indistinct) of the times around when these issues (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: I think we accept that and it would be very difficult (indistinct) maybe like Peter Storey putting down in a diary.  I mean we promise that the (indistinct) will be restrained.

MR MOKOENA: Can  I ask a question?  I don't know (indistinct).  We said the reference here to the fact that I went to the Mandela family and (indistinct) the abduction and I was told (indistinct) and I didn't get to see the children.  Who made this (indistinct).   How would he have known?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) want to answer.

MR MOKOENA: Could he have known this (indistinct).