Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chris was a trained person, I wouldn't tell the girls to move away so that I can get a chance to kill Chris.

MR KEMP: Do I understand you correctly that you were scared to approach him, to shoot him directly with a pistol?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, because he was a soldier.

MR KEMP: Was he armed on that night?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I won't say so because I didn't search him, I didn't touch him.

MR KEMP: The weapon you bought with the money which you got from the Msibi incident, you told the Committee yesterday you bought a firearm, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR KEMP: What kind of firearm was it?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was a 9 mm firearm.

MR KEMP: And you mentioned yesterday that you bought it from some people.  I would like to have more particulars, where were these people, how did you approach them?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It is people from the township.  I won't be able to say exactly who were those people.

MR KEMP: You didn't know them?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, I didn't know them, but I knew that they were selling the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know to go to that particular place or person and approach them in order to purchase the firearm, if you didn't know them?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was in the company of Hlaza.  He was the resident of Piet Retief and he knew the people of Piet Retief.

MR KEMP: So Hlaza would be able to tell us who these people were?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, Hlaza passed away after I was arrested.

MR KEMP: What happened to this weapon after you bought it?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, sorry, I don't want to be too disruptive, but I understand that, I was given to understand that Mr Kemp represents the police.  I am not quite sure what the purpose, this weapon was purchased and this - I am referring to the Msibi, Piet Retief issue, how relevant that is in so far as his mandate is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: I will allow it.

MR KEMP: Do I have to repeat the question?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR KEMP: What happened to this weapon after you had purchased it?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I took it with to Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: What we want to know is what eventually happened to it?  Did you give it away to somebody or did you arm somebody else or did you keep it for yourself or was it taken by the police when you were arrested or what is the position?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I had the permission to train the Self Defence Units, I thought that it was important for me to give it to some of the members of the Self Defence Units that I trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do that, did you give it to one of the members?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I did so.

MR KEMP: To whom did you give it?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was Bongani Khaba.

MR KEMP: Is that Bongani Khaba?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR KEMP: You mentioned in your evidence yesterday that some weapons were given to members of the Black Cats, by members of the South African Police.  Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is so.

MR KEMP: Did you ever see this happen?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I didn't see it happening, but Bongani who was one of the Black Cat members, told me so.

MR KEMP: So, you only know about what people told you and what you read in the Weekly Mail, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is so.

MR KEMP: I have no further questions.

MR KEMP: .

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Gushu, yesterday if you will recall, much time was given because there were a number of problems with your statement which was not undersigned, do you remember?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (No translation)

MS VAN DER WALT: Before the time it was also read out to you and you confirmed it, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (No translation)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat himself?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, would you repeat your answer please?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have a problem with my earphones, I cannot hear the Interpreter properly.  I am struggling.
	Please repeat the question.

MS VAN DER WALT: Your testimony or your statement was read to you and you confirmed it, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Which one are you referring to?

MS VAN DER WALT: The statement which has been placed before the Committee.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: All of it, it is true.  Yes, it is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you again confirm that everything contained within the statements within Volume 1, which has been placed before the Committee is the truth?  You confirmed that yesterday as well?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Even now, I am still maintaining that position.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said yesterday after your statements had been sworn in that what is contained within that, you wrote yourself, do you remember saying that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is so.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well, and I would remind you that there was an initial first statement which did not appear before the Committee which came to light yesterday.  Do you remember that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I remember.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you aware of that statement and are the contents of that statement, the truth?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: At the moment I haven't seen that statement, therefore I cannot confirm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Would you like to study the statement?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I would love to read that statement although it will be difficult for me to read English because I am not an Englishman.

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, yesterday with regard to one of the Honourable Committee member's questions, and I am not interested in the aspects which have not been served to the Committee, the statement consists of seven pages and the last page which I have removed, has to do with that aspect which has not been served to the Committee and I therefore beg leave that I provide this to the witness to read, but I can't understand what you say sir, because you said that you can't read English, however yesterday you were referred to your statements, and you followed it, how was that possible?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: My problem is this, I can write but English is not my home language therefore it will be difficult for me, this is why I asked to testify in Xhosa.

MS VAN DER WALT: Would you like the opportunity for the Interpreter to study that statement with you so that you can determine whether or not that is the first statement that you made to your Attorneys and the same statement that you sent in along with your amnesty application?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would like to do so if possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, might we have a few moments for him to study his statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, was that statement not dealt with with your client?

MR BLACK: This statement, I presume she is referring to the first statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I heard both statements.

MR BLACK: I haven't gone through this first statement with him, with the client, in detail.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?  We all knew that that is going to become a focal issue yesterday, not so?  I was called upon to make a ruling to what extent that statement could be used.
	We are going to delay further now because of that.  Mr Gushu, when you go through this statement that you say you haven't seen, with the assistance of the Interpreter, I want you to be quite clear as to the contents and not to just willy nilly agree to the contents.  If there is something you disagree with or you don't understand, make a note and then when you come back, you point it out to her, point it out to us.
	Check if whether what is recorded in that document is in fact what you told your Attorney.  Do you understand?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the purpose of us giving you the opportunity now to read and check this document because you are going to be cross-examined on the contents thereof.  And the contents of that statement is possibly going to be compared to the statement you signed, so you must be very careful about whether the contents of that statement that you didn't sign, that you are going to read now, is one that you actually  made.  Do you understand?