Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-07-01

JEANETTE THERON: You know, during my discussions with prisoners, I try everything possible to obtain information from them so that if they speak to me openly and honestly  then - because that would be the only way in which I can promote a person's rehabilitation.  And from many discussions with both applicants individually, because I never spoke to them jointly, I could very clearly discern, and also from other sources, such as speaking to their families and court reports, I could very clearly see that Mr Du Plessis senior had a huge influence on these two young people, and as I have already said, also from my experience as a social worker, and my experience with children in general, I could say that a child during the stage of puberty is very vulnerable to outside influences and is easy to manipulate, especially when the person is very dynamic and has a very strong personality such as the case of Mr Du Plessis senior. For that reason I said that it was clear to me from my research, that they were indeed manipulated.  They confirmed that to me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But from their evidence I got the impression that they were intellectuals on their own and in fact, I got the impression that they were very strong personalities and determined in what they wanted to do on their own and setting their own objectives and goals.

JEANETTE THERON: I refer specifically to the stage of Std 6, whilst they are still young. It is undisputed that they are intelligent, but a child in Std 6 is still very vulnerable to influences and one can still shape him at that stage and shape his thought patterns in the way you would like to. Especially if you are more mature at that stage.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, are you saying that their state of mind as at the time when they committed these various offences,  could be traced back to the age of six?

JEANETTE THERON: Std 6.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Std 6?

JEANETTE THERON: Std 6.  I think that was the basis, that's where it started, the foundation was laid during that stage, the basis for the influencing. I am convinced that that played a major role in their gradual and later development.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Do you draw a distinction between inspiring people and manipulating people?

JEANETTE THERON: Inspiring?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, do you draw a distinction between inspiring people and manipulating people?

JEANETTE THERON: I do think there is a difference. To inspire somebody you can actually encourage him to act and think in a certain way.  But manipulation can be seen in a positive or a negative way. If you look at psychopathy in general, where we often refer to a manipulated psychopath, we can say that that is negative, because such a person then uses his manipulation in a negative way to cause that person to think and act in the way you would like him to think and act. So I do think there is a difference between inspiring and manipulating.

HASSAN MALL: I understood your evidence to mean that they were manipulated from what I have taken down, that they were manipulated by Du Plessis senior.  Are you still of the view that he manipulated them rather than inspired them with ideals?

JEANETTE THERON: Yes, I think both, I think manipulation is a very delicate thing, but I think they were also inspired, yes.

HASSAN MALL: I understand inspiring being something that happens before manipulation.  But quite clearly, in this case I do not think that the evidence shows that Mr Du Plessis had anything to do with the planning of whatever they were doing, telling them what to do and how to go about it.

JEANETTE THERON: I agree with you. I am still only referring to my evaluation of the two applicants after the early stage of Std 6 onwards, when they were still in their puberty, but I believe that Mr Du Plessis senior had a major influence on their thought patterns at that time.

HASSAN MALL: He may have influenced their thinking and inspired them with his own ideas, but the only reason I ask these questions, is because you used the word manipulated, and I am not too sure whether you really meant that.

JEANETTE THERON: I think if you refer to their later conduct, when they were a bit older and during the commission of the offences, I think their thinking had already been shaped and they already knew what they were doing.  But the influencing had started earlier. That took place at an earlier age.

HASSAN MALL: That is very much like the influencing that the father has over his children in relation whether they should go to church, which church and how to pray. That kind of thing, isn't it?

JEANETTE THERON: I think that when we look at Mr Du Plessis senior's thinking, it was very radical and not quite acceptable to society.  For that reason I am specifically referring to what I regard as negative and manipulative.

HASSAN MALL: What were the negative features?

JEANETTE THERON: I don't think it is acceptable to influence children from Std 6 onwards in such a political way, that it has the consequence that that is all they talk about. For that reason I think it is negative. I think children in Std 6 should still be participating in sport and that kind of thing, and be involved with friends, and it seems to me from my talks with the two applicants, that that was the main theme, namely politics.  That's why I regard it as negative for a child's development.

HASSAN MALL: Any other questions?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see, Mrs Theron, what troubles us about the - it might have been an unfortunate choice of words, but it was a choice of words anyway, such as manipulation.  What strikes one here is that these two applicant, both of them were born in 1970, I think.  Are you aware of that?

JEANETTE THERON: Both of them?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were born in the year 1970?

JEANETTE THERON: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And when this incident happened, they probably would have been adults, 21.

JEANETTE THERON: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And it is against that background that I questioned you, I asked you about and my Brother also asked you about the question of manipulation.

JEANETTE THERON: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Somewhere along the way when we become adults, don't we have to become adults?

JEANETTE THERON: That is correct.  I did say that when they committed the offences they were already knew what they were doing, they were adults then.  They were not completely adult yet, but they were already old enough to make certain decisions on their own, but when I refer in my statement to manipulation, I specifically referred to the ages when they were still in Std 6, when they were still capable of being influenced. I think later on Mr Du Plessis senior did not play such a major role, although it seems to me that there wasn't that much contact later on. So my reference to manipulation is due to their ages in Std 6.  For me as a social worker that is a very sensitive stage in a child's development.

HASSAN MALL: So when any father tries to teach a religious ideas and principles to a child who is in Std 6, encouraging the child to attend church and other activities, do you regard that as manipulation?

JEANETTE THERON: No. No, then I wouldn't refer to manipulation. I am specifically referring to the extremely radical negative way as far as politics was concerned.  Mr Du Plessis was conveying this on a regular daily basis to these two young people.  That is what their discussion centred on.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.

JEANETTE THERON: Thank  you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.  That is the evidence I will be leading in support of the application for my client.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, that is also Mr C J van Wyk's case, there will be no further testimony.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, what is the position?