Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

MR VISSER: I believed that you had it in front of you, Mr Chairman.  It's a document in manuscript stating, it says: Statements from the docket by, and then it's got contents and pages and it starts with Eugene de Kock, Andrew Taylor etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.

MR LAX: We haven't got that Chair.  Certainly I have not seen that one.  We got two bundles yesterday, one was the one you wanted to mark E, the other one was articles on Operation Vula, with a whole range of stuff, including stuff that you've subsequently marked B and C and so on, but this particular annexure you're now referring to, we haven't received yet.

MS THABETHE: I thought I had given you all the relevant copies.

CHAIRPERSON: Show me what they look like.

MR VISSER: May I approach you and show you mine, Mr Chairman?  Perhaps we can compare notes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do come over.

MS THABETHE: I've got two extra copies, can I give them to you?

CHAIRPERSON: He's just shown it to us now.  We haven't got a copy of this.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm told by you that you haven't got a copy of that.  I'm not going to refer you in detail, I just want to draw your attention to page 5 of that document which I submit we should mark Exhibit F.  The one that you've now got in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now this is compiled by whom, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: I, myself, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So you've compiled two sets of papers, one we've already referred to as Exhibit E.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And now Exhibit F.

MS THABETHE: Yes, there is another set, Mr Chair, or articles on Operation Vula.  That's the third one.

CHAIRPERSON: No let's just talk about Exhibit F first, is that correct?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright so this is Exhibit F.  Now you say there's going to be another third document?

MR LAX: Articles on Operation Vula.

CHAIRPERSON: This document here?

MR LAX: That came from that bundle.  That was part of that bundle, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was part of this bundle?

MR LAX: Those document there were part of a bigger bundle
full of a whole range of articles which has subsequently been broken up.

CHAIRPERSON: Well at some stage we'll have to get this sorted out.

MR LAX: Yes, I've got the full set, I'll show you.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, what is she talking about?  The third document?

MR LAX: This is F, that's E.   It was headed, it had this heading on it.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the heading?

MR LAX: That was the cover sheet.  It's probably under those papers.  There it is there, I can see it sticking out,, that was the original front of it, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then ...

MR LAX: Portions of this have now been made separate annexures.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is it going to be Exhibit G, which is it that is Exhibit G?

MR LAX: The remainder of this bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what documents will now be Exhibit G Ms Thabethe?  Can you tell us?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, it's a document, I think it's entitled Articles on Operation Vula.  It's a whole set of articles, different articles.

CHAIRPERSON: How many different articles are there?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman may I make a suggestion to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR VISSER: We will not refer to that last mentioned document.  Perhaps that can be sorted out conveniently during lunch time or so, Mr Chairman, we don't have that document, so I don't know what that is about.  The only point ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I may make a complaint in matters of this kind.  When we are going to be burdened with documents, care should be taken that they are pinned together and drawn our attention to them before we commence these hearings.  It's not feasible for anybody to deal intelligently with piles of documents in a jumble before us.  Now I appeal that in future we must try and avoid that.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.  I am indebted to you, but I didn't have the resources to bind the necessary documents.  I didn't even have a big stapler with me, nor a stapler, that's the best I could do under the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, but you will take steps to see that you try and avoid this kind of situation?

MS THABETHE: I'll do so, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, at some stage you will then come to my assistance and tell me what documents will then, we'll be referring to as Exhibit G.  Right now I'm not going to give a designation to these documents, because I don't know which of them will go on as Exhibit G.

MS THABETHE: As it pleases you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Thank you very much.  Mr Visser, please proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, and I do apologise for my part in confusing issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, some people have a talent in that regard, haven't they?

MR VISSER: The only point which I wish to, why I mentioned the two exhibits which we have, is to give you a cross-reference, Chairperson and that will be in Exhibit F, which you've now marked Exhibit F at page 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: 4 and 5, where you will find Taylor's version of the very same incident which the witness is now talking about and that is that day of the 7th of July and the witness has just told you that Taylor became angry.  Chairperson, you'll find that at page 5 paragraph 5 where it appears that Taylor himself says
"I was extremely angry about this etc. etc."
These are documents which we received yesterday of which we were not aware, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that this might be a matter of great interest, but what about it's relevance?  Is it really relevant that we are dealing, referring us to details of this kind?

MR VISSER: It is relevant to credibility, I would submit Mr Chairman, but I have made the reference, we will now continue with the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR VISSER: Would you continue?

H J P BOTHA: I and the rest of the members, took Ndaba to a safe-house in Verulam so that I could conduct discussions with him and to try and work out a legend for him relating to his arrest.

MR VISSER: Could you perhaps just explain that a little bit better so we understand what you mean?

H J P BOTHA: Chair, the arrest of Ndaba at that stage was not something that I had planned.  He was arrested by an askari, he was exposed to other members and at the same time a decision must be taken as to how he can be placed back in the structure so that we could continue to try and obtain that information.

MR VISSER: So you actually had to work out a cover story for him to see whether there were any problems and how you could solve these problems?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

H J P BOTHA: I phoned Gen Steyn and I informed him of what had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that, do you mean after you took Ndaba to Verulam.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He emphasised that the matter should be managed in such a way that the informer not be exposed.  Thereafter I informed du Preez, Wasserman and van der Westhuizen about the information in respect of the operation as it was known to me at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: What operation are you talking about?

H J P BOTHA: I'm referring to the intelligence operation and the role which Ndaba played within Operation Vula.  On the same day 7 July 1990, and  for your convenience I want to explain that what I'm explaining here took place within a very brief span of time.  It was like an hour or two hours maximum.  Ndaba told me that he had a meeting that same afternoon.

MS POSWA: May I interrupt Mr Chair, I have lost sound, I have no sound on my unit.

MR LAX: Your thing is covered there.

MR VISSER: Could you please repeat that Mr Botha?

CHAIRPERSON: Ndaba told you what?