Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, this is what this is about but isn't it also true that some people heal a lot quicker than others, a lot of people forgive and others don't and other people forget and others don't because we are human.  It might take me a lot longer than some people and I respect that, if other people heal quicker than what I do, then I appreciate that.  I tried to forget it up until two days ago and then yesterday I heard it again.  I wasn't going to come here but then when I heard what was being said I thought I better come here and tell the truth, basically how it happened - that's basically it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, do you also accept that there have been other people who have appeared before this Committee who have committed similar or even worse atrocities and they have been granted amnesty?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I understand that.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect, is this a fair question to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: It hasn't got anything to do with it - as to what the Committee has decided or not Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman with due respect, this is of critical importance here to understand ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, it isn't of critical importance.

NORMAN ARENDSE: To understand - we haven't led any evidence, I can't say it because I'm not a witness, I need to get a response from a witness and it's clear that Mr Prior has not - as the leader of evidence he has not discussed with Mr Cerqueira and therefore I'll be surprised if he discussed it with any of the other victims, what the amnesty process is all about.

JUDGE WILSON: Do we need to be told that by witnesses?  Don't we know what it's about, don't you know what it's about and aren't you going to tell us that in your closing address?

NORMAN ARENDSE: It's also important Mr Chairman with due respect, for victims to understand what this process is about before because they are opposing the application for amnesty.  Now, you support something or you oppose something because you understand it or because someone has told you to oppose or to support - that is what I want to know, his view of why he's opposing it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, as I understand his view is that he wasn't interested in coming here until recently when he heard it being said that his brother was killed because his brother was alleged to have shot at them and that is why he was killed. Now him his mind he knows that his brother did not shoot and he's come to the conclusion that they are not telling the truth, that is why he is here - I think you understand that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I hear yes, yes, yes, behind me Mr Chairman, I asked you yesterday that people behind me must refrain from passing comments when I'm busy.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

NORMAN ARENDSE: M Chairman, that may be one of the purposes why he's here but there is a perception and that perception comes from people like Mr Cerqueira and victims who are concerned with the amnesty process, creating perception in the minds of the public about the amnesty process and in my view it is a misconception.
	There is no understanding of what this is about and I can't cross-examine members of the public willingly, I can only do so when I ask questions of people like Mr Cerqueira.  And it's very important for us in this country to understand what this is about.  There is a perception that people like the applicants especially APLA cadres should not be granted amnesty, they must get their just deserts.  Now I'm putting that in context, there's been a lot of killing and the Black people of this country has borne the brunt of that.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that Mr Arendse, I'm just saying to you that this witness was prepared to overlook and come to terms with the reality as I understand his evidence and the only reason why he's here is because he read it being said that his brother was killed because his brother fired at them and they shot back.  Now he says that he knows his brother did not shoot, he thinks that the truth is not being spoken - that the applicants have not told the truth, that is why he's here.

NORMAN ARENDSE: He's also here Mr Chairman, because he said he wanted justice,  now that is fundamental, it's a fundamental misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should worry about that because this Committee is not swayed by that consideration.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I'm glad to hear that Mr Chairman.
	Mr Cerqueira, did you give a statement to the police?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, I did.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But you were not called upon to testify in court, is that right?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I wasn't called no, I don't know why.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you on the list of witnesses that they - I can perhaps understand why you were not called but were you on the list of witnesses at all, did they tell you you may be called?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: They said I may be called.  On the 31st, the following day when I got to the restaurant there was a Mr Knight that was in the restaurant, a very arrogant person who I thought at the time I'm sorry to say, he asked somebody else to take the statement and that was it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And your statement corresponds with what you're saying today?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, I think so.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, can I just ask Mr Prior if that statement - if it is available and if so, can it be made available to us?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it's not available, I don't have it, I've searched for it, it's not in the docket, it's on any document that was handed to me when I joined on the 1st of October - we've made enquiries about not only Mr Cerqueira's statement but other statements that we just don't have.  What I can do is possibly investigate the matter further but I've searched diligently in this building for a statement and I haven't found one.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Cerqueira?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir?

NORMAN ARENDSE: The Benny - the waiter by the name of Benny you're referring to, that's Mr Benjamin Browdie is it - or Brodie?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That's him yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I think he's here is he or he's been here.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I've seen him today,  yes I've seen him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, would you say that on what you're telling us here today that he would have seen exactly or that he must have seen exactly what you're telling us you saw?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I think so.  Given the circumstances, he might not have seen all of it because we were all in fear when all this started happening but I think up until the point that we walked up to the door and the gentleman started firing at us and we ran in, I'm sure he remembers all that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And one would have expected him to say that you were there - he was with you?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, I dragged him inside because he was actually - he was lucky to get away with it because the bullet hole was in his trousers, it didn't manage to hit his leg.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I also heard you saying and you must correct me if I'm wrong, you were there until 10 to 12?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I was there until about - no, no, I was there till way after, I was there till probably after the shooting and probably about 2 in the morning.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay.  Now, in his evidence at court - where you at court when Mr Brodie gave evidence?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, Sir.  Through all this what happened, I was not at all in court, I didn't go to court, I didn't want to go to court, I didn't want to go and listen to witnesses and I wanted to forget the whole thing.  Not at any stage did I go into court and sit and listen to proceedings or anything like that at any stage up until today, this is the first time that I'm facing people with regards to what's happened.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now in his evidence at court - the way it was summarised by the Judge, he never mentions your name at all.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir?