Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Blanko and Bulelwa?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: It is not the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you suggesting, I am asking you whether is there any reason why they were not killed prior to the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: We did not have any proof before that.

CHAIRPERSON: Proof of what?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: To catch them red-handed you know, because in Blanko's case, we also realised some boxes of cigarettes which were proof to us.

CHAIRPERSON: What proof did you require?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: About proof that of something that they had in hand from where they attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I am asking you and you have told us that prior to the death of Blanko and Bulelwa, you believed that the persons who were captured and killed, were engaged in a conduct which was inconsistent with members of the ANC Youth League.

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to find out from you is if that were to be the case, and I think you have told us, we know that they had been involved in the killing of Majosi for example, was a member of the South African Communist Party we were told, they were also involved, we were told in the hijacking of a bakkie for a Mr Makanya for example.
	What we want to find out from you, if you had all of this information, why were they not killed prior to the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That question is difficult.  It is a quite difficult question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Now Blanko was the Chairman of SDU, is that correct?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MADASA: What did his death mean to you in relation to the protection of the community?
	Did you understand my question?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No, I don't understand your question.

MR MADASA: Blanko was the Chairman of SDU?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MADASA: He was killed?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MADASA: There was evidence from Oscar that he was killed by ANC Youth League?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Was his death connected with the protection of the community?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: You mean the death of Blanko?  It was not related, they were attacking the community.

MR MADASA: No, you don't understand me.  Let me put it this way ...

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: You see, we were protecting the community.

MR MADASA: Yes, I know.  Was the killing of SDU members, going to expose the community to the ANC Youth League?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MADASA: Now, did you benefit anything from capturing those boys?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

MR MADASA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ndabe, you say Pinky's mother described how her son was dressed, did I understand you correctly?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, was her son one of those whom you captured?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Those are the ones we captured, three of them, he was one of the three in other words.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, do you I mean today, not at that stage, today, do you know who is Pinky's mother in other words, her name or her surname?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: I wouldn't say that, I don't know the surname, because the husband we refer to him as Mokoena if I am not mistaken.

MR SIBANYONI: So, the mother we are talking about is Mrs Mokoena, is that so?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: I don't want to confirm that.

MR SIBANYONI: At the stage when you were capturing these, the three boys you captured, did you know what will eventually happen with them?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No.

MR SIBANYONI: But one of the applicants yesterday said that if a person kills, that person would be killed.  Did you hear that applicant saying so?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: I wouldn't say I heard this.

MR SIBANYONI: And then the killing of these youth, to me appears as if it was an avenge for the death of Blanko, you were retaliating because they killed Blanko.  What do you say about that?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No, it is not so.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Ndabe, this Pinky, was she a friend of Bulelwa's?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No, that is not the one, that is not the Pinky.

MR MALAN: So that is another Pinky?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That is true.

MR MALAN: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Motata?

MR MOTATA: Mr Ndabe, before the Youth League separated themselves from you, that is the SDU, you used to patrol together?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That is true.

MR MOTATA: Just explain to us, we know from the evidence we have heard that operators used to carry guns and those would be issued by the Commander Regional or Central, but they used to carry guns and in this respect AK47's, is that so?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MOTATA: Were the members of the Youth League, when they joined you, also being issued with that type of weaponry?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No.

MR MOTATA: We are told that the operators were trained, now when you were patrolling or rather let's put it this way, members of the Youth League who joined you, were they trained?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No.

MR MOTATA: You have referred to incidents of shootings, but it would appear that whilst this ensued nobody (indistinct) injured in the process and since your members that is the SDU were trained, they couldn't shoot straight could they?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: It is so.

MR MOTATA: You happen to know Pinky's mother, she took the trouble to describe the clothing of her son.  Would you know that the son was one of the victims that is one of the people who died?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MOTATA: To date, from 1993 December, 7, have you endeavoured to find out who this son was?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: No.

MR MOTATA: You were probably vindicated that you had achieved your objective in killing the victims in the process of protecting the community, are you saying that to us?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That is not what I am saying.

MR MOTATA: We know, or rather let's ask you, do you regard the families of the victims as part of the community which you tried to protect?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MOTATA: And it would be human nature that if one of the members of the community and let's confine ourselves to Muleleki, that if something befalls that family, you would find out what happened from that family, wouldn't that be so?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MOTATA: These members of the African National Congress Youth League, were not a menace to only the other members of the community, but their families too were threatened, would I be right if I think along those lines?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: I wouldn't know.

MR MOTATA: But we should accept that when you protected the community of Muleleki, the members of the victims, the families of the victims where you were trying to protect them as well, should we accept that?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

MR MALAN: The identity of Pinky's mother, would her first name be Alphina?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: I don't know the name, she is also present here.  I may ask her if you so wish that she may identify herself.

MR MALAN: I just want to make sure because we have information that Mrs Alphina Mokati says that she met up with you and at that stage, there was also Mrs Constance Sindesi was also there and that you were asked about their children, and that you answered only Mrs Mokati, Alphina Mokati, told her that her child was indeed in the shack.
	Were there two women that asked you, is that correct?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Then if that is so, then the Youth's name would have been Isaac Mogadi if the woman ...

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Isaac Mogadi?

MR MALAN: Yes, could it be?