Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

WITNESS: She stays in Heilbron, but she ran away becauseshe was scared to come and testify. I did let her know that I was going to comeand testify, but she never turned up.

MR LAX: Do you know of any other possible witnesses we could talk to?--- I don't know of any other people. Busisiwe knows those people.

MR LAX: Thank you. Have you received a death certificate in relation to your son's death?

WITNESS: Yes, I did get the deathcertificate.

MR LAX: And you've just confirmed for us that he was at Heilbron Hospitalwhere he was treated and where he died.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Mrs Tsetsi.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. Anyone else? Yes, Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chair. Also under the samepoint of witnesses, according to Mrs Butsibo's statement there is a name ofFosewa Mputhi that is mentioned. Can he be one of the witnesses who could helpus in investigating?

WITNESS: Yes, he is a witness.

MR DLAMINI: Do you know his address where we can contact him in case weneed to talk to him?

WITNESS: I am not really sure about his address, but I believethat the person who was taking the statement took all the particulars of thewitness.

MR DLAMINI: One more question to Mrs Tsetsi. It's of concern that yourson reportedly died of excessive bleeding, and when one looks at the times asrecorded in the statement, between the time that the incident took place whenhe was shot and the time that he actually got to hospital, can I confirm thosetimes, because it looks an unusually big gap. What time was he shot roughly?--- He was shot at about half past 12. Then he went to the hospital at approximatelyone - approximately one.

MR DLAMINI: So he was not shot in the morning?

WITNESS: No, he wasn't shot inthe morning. He was shot during the day.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was concerned because according tothe statement he is reported to have been  shot in the morning, and only to be admitted at half past one.Thank you.

KHOZA MGOJO: Chairperson, some of the questions have beenarticulated by Brother Mdu Dlamini, but I just want to check whether maybe it'smy hearing which was wrong. Paulina mentioned one of the witnesses as MzimbiMoloi. Is there any person like that, or maybe I didn't understand what ...(inaudible)

WITNESS: Yes, that is true, it is Mzimbi Moloi.

KHOZA MGOJO: Is there any reason why in your statement you didn't writehim as a witness, because in your document here you wrote as a witness FosewaMputhi?

WITNESS: I do not know of any Fosewa Mputhi. I know Mzimbi Moloi. On the13th when the Truth Commission was in Heilbron Mputhi was there.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible) ... correct this document so that we put the rightwitness. Thank you.

MRS GCABASHE: Mrs Butsibo, according to your statementyou talked about Mr Mapena. How is Mr Mapena involved in here?

WITNESS: Mr Mapenawas a Comrade. He is the one who was helping us to run up and down, go to thepolice stations to try and find out what happened.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Either of the two witnesses could answerthis one. You said that at that time there was shooting, the soldiers were shootingin the townships. Do you know what was going on at the time in the township?Why were there soldiers there and why were they shooting at people?

WITNESS: At thattime there wasn't much. It was just the Sasol  students. Now all the Comrades were trying to sort out

MR LYSTER: their matters, their organisation's matters. They had beenarrested. Now we don't know who called the Casspir from Harrismith. They justcame and shot, but there wasn't any altercation. There was absolutely nothingthat - the policeman said they were stoning his house, but that's unbelievablebecause it was just a quiet march. Our children were killed by the Heilbronpolice. That soldier made a mistake of taking him around the location. That'show he lost blood or bled excessively.

MR LYSTER: You think that he was shot, and then he was put in the Hippoand they travelled around with him while he was still alive in the Hippo forsome time, and only after some time they took him to the hospital.

WITNESS: Yes,that's what I said exactly.

MR LYSTER: And you said that when you examined his body, when you identifiedhis body, it was evident that it had been rolling around in the Hippo becauseit was very, very dirty. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, I said that.

MR LYSTER: Now, this policeman, Shidiso Hlongwane, do you know where heis? Or is he a soldier or a policeman? A policeman.

WITNESS: It's a policeman. Idon't know where he disappeared, because he is no long working in Heilbron.I don't see him any more.

MR LYSTER: And was it Busisiwe Moloi who told you that the name of thepoliceman who shot these two boys, your sons, was Hlongwane?

WITNESS: Yes, she isthe one who told us, as well as Feddington saw him.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... Busisiwe Moloi the same person as Mzimbi Moloi,or are they two different people?

WITNESS: No, they are different. It's two separatepersons. And the death certificate, what does that read as

MR LYSTER: the cause of death? There's no death certificate, is there?--- No, the Magistrate told me by word of mouth. I didn't get any death certificate.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: It's not easy to find words after listeningto the story. It's tragic when a young man is killed, and possibly even moretragic when it's a 14-year-old boy who probably was just shot in the crossfirein a time of conflict. We heard that you would like some tombstones to be putto commemorate the deaths of your sons, and perhaps even a creche in memoryof perhaps your son, and other young people who were killed. We will certainlytake that message to the right people and see what we can do. Nothing can bringyour sons back, but we are grateful that we are now living in a time where itis less likely that this will happen again, and one of the reasons why we havethis Truth and Reconciliation Commission is to remind all of us of the heavy,heavy cost and the heavy price that we have had to pay, and to remind us thatwe must work together so that it never happens again.
I hope that just by virtue that you are sitting together, thatyou are mothers united in a common loss, that this will be of some strengthto you, and that so many other mothers and so many other families together willhelp to build a new South Africa, so that young boys and young men will neverdie in vain again.
Thank you very much indeed for coming.

UNKNOWN: Good afternoon, Mr Marais. You can hear meall right?

MR MARAIS: Yes, I can hear you.

UNKNOWN: Tell me, who is the lady who is sitting withyou?

MR MARAIS: This is my mother.

UNKNOWN: We are very, very glad to welcome you also,very glad to see you. Now, you've have a very long wait, and it's long in theafternoon, and you are the last witness, but your story is as important as everybodyelse's, and you're going to tell us about what happened to you. Not about someoneelse, but about what happened to you, particularly at the time when you weredetained and also tortured. But before you do so I'd be grateful if you, MrMarais, would please stand for the oath.

EZEKIEL MATSIDISO MARAIS: (Sworn, States)

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. Will you be seated please.My colleague, Mrs Gcabashe, is going to lead you and assist you in the tellingof your own story, and I am going to hand over to her now. Thank you.

MRS GCABASHE: I greet you, Matsidiso. Mr Chairpersonhas already said that you've been waiting since this morning to appear beforethe Commission. I want to thank you for the patience. I want to thank you forwaiting to come and appear here so that we can all know the truth of what happenedto you. Is your mother going to help you as you relate your story?

WITNESS: Yes,I am going to say a few words, and she will also add something.