Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR MEYER: I will be brief as the Commissioner has asked me to be.  Chairperson on the first issue the reference to the quote on page 2, I don't have the document available now but I would gladly respond to that by making the document available to the Commission, so if I may I will immediately on my return to Pretoria send that through to the Commission.  I just don't have it available right now.
 On the second question Chairperson I am afraid that I don't have a specific framework within which to respond to the question.  The Commissioner apparently is referring to 
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general, or allegations of general gross human rights violations that took place in the Ciskei, if I understood him correctly.  If there would be specific points in that regard I guess it might be easier to respond and indicate what actions or steps we might have taken.  But I must again point out that the situation as far as the TBVC states are concerned, in general, at that stage, even in 1992 were such that they were regarded as independent states, wrongly maybe one would argue, but the fact of the matter is that we, from the South African side, didn't have the authority over the Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana or Ciskei for that matter to act like the Commission might have suggested.  These governments, again rightly or wrongly, were in full control of their own justice departments, they appointed their own civil servants in those different capacities, they had their own defence forces, their own police forces and so forth.  The question is therefore difficult to respond to unless there are specific references that the Commissioner would like to point out then maybe one can follow up on that.
 As far as the third question is concerned I don't have, unfortunately, that letter available to me that the Commissioner has referred to but I guess if that was what Gqozo has stated in that letter he might have referred to the so-called informal alliances that existed in Codesa.  And then maybe I should just for a moment refer to that and inform the Commission that at the time of Codesa, between Codesa 1 and Codesa II, that was between December and May, December of '91 and May of '92, there existed an informal alliance that consisted on the one side of the ANC and its formal alliance partners, namely the SACP and COSATU, together with a number of other parties, I think they were 
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all in all seven or eight parties that were on the side of the ANC, an informal alliance as far as the negotiations are concerned.  Similarly on the side of the then government there was also an informal alliance consisting of seven or eight parties and it's true that the Ciskean government was one of those parties in that grouping.  There were also other parties for instance the Homeland parties of KwaZulu Natal, I am sorry, yes the IFP was there of course, but other Homeland parties like for instance the Deconquetla from the old Kwa Kwa, Shimoko from Gazankulu and a number of others and the Ciskean Government was also part of that grouping and I think that is maybe what Gqozo has referred to.

ADV SANDI: My last question is, but before I ask this last question, I should first thank you for telling me that your government was not aware that at the time in question that gross human rights violations were taking place in the Ciskei area.  Nevertheless the question I intend to ask now is that when this Commission received testimonies in Bisho during September one of the things we were told was that the SADF, the SAP and the Traffic Police accompanied the marchers in the direction to Bisho but about one kilometre away from the stadium the SAP, SADF and the Traffic Police withdrew, was this the arrangement and was this known by the organisers of the march?  Had this been communicated to the authorities in the Ciskei that your personnel would escort the marchers up to that point?  Perhaps a question that goes together with that is, was your government aware that there was a shortage of wire in the Ciskei?

SENATOR RADUE: No our government wasn't aware that there was a shortage of wire Commissioner.  But in regard to the
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question of the escort of the South African Police and the South African Defence Force I believe more the South African Police ...(tape ends)
 ....did not occur.  But yes they did accompany in order to retain and maintain law and order within the boundaries of the then South Africa, but they stopped at the barrier which was erected on the boundary of Ciskei, and they had no jurisdiction officially de jure to proceed beyond that point in view of the independence of Ciskei. And so that is where the protection of the people marching, who also included South African citizens stopped.  They could not go beyond the barrier, and it was beyond the barrier that the Ciskean security forces were in control.  So that was the situation.
 There was no problem on the South African side at any stage during the entire day and the South African authorities gave every assistance, together with the Municipality and the traffic police and the medical personnel after the tragedy occurred at the Grey Hospital in King Williamstown.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.  We are trying to wrap up, Pumpla?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson.  Minister Kriel I have been looking at some of the accolades that some of your men had, some of them work in the media as military intelligence, supporting Unita and you know those kinds of accolades, and I wonder what was the role of your department, what was its agenda in Ciskei in view of all these men who were seconded to the Ciskei in this important, very important military and police positions, what was the agenda of your department in Ciskei?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I don't think that we had a specific agenda
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apart from the fact that expertise was needed to run a proper police force here, and we supplied in certain instances, seconded personnel to assist with that, but it wasn't a South African Police Force, it was a Ciskean Police Force and we seconded people to assist and to train people to look after crime.  So that was our only agenda.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.  Premier Kriel you are reported to have made a statement after the incident that the shooting was triggered-off by, shooting that came from the side of the marchers.  We have looked at the testimony, we have been unable to find any evidence supporting that, in fact from the ballistic tests that were done the indications are that a pistol that was found near the place where some of the marchers were was never fired, did you have any specific information in that regard that supported that allegation?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What most probably happened was that just after the incident took place you receive certain reports from various people.  I could not verify those reports because I wasn't there, but if that turned out to be wrong it wasn't a statement that was made, that could have influenced anything, it was after the fact.  And if the Goldstone Commission and other reporters find that that was not the case and if you should find that Sir I am quite prepared to accept that because I didn't see it.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  Senator Radue the facts that you transmitted at 13H49 on the day was that before or after the shooting incident happened?