Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, where is there - take your time.  I'm sure that the Committee won't have to adjourn, subject to what the Committee may have to say, for you to point out to us where there is information in the possession of the Commission that Mr Goniwe was advocating violence or he was recruiting people for MK or anyone else, or was involved in sabotage or violence or anything.

MR J VAN ZYL: I did not say that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR J VAN ZYL: I never said he was involved in sabotage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, you have painted a picture of a person who was responsible for much of the problems in the Eastern Cape and that was the basis for the decision to killing.
	All Mr Bizos is asking is in the Commissioner's report, can you see any information that substantiates this description of a person that's a hardened trouble maker.

MR J VAN ZYL: Not in what I have seen, Mr Chairman, except for what I have pointed out.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am going to offer you an opportunity to read the document.  How long do you think you will take?

MR J VAN ZYL: Five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then adjourn for that period.
ADJOURNS.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Van  Zyl, have you had an opportunity of studying the document, exhibit "K".

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that what the Commissioner says in that report is substantially different to the impression that you tried to give the Committee or the information that you had about Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: I would say that this is a watered down version of the information that we had at our disposal, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why should the Commissioner of Police want to "water down" information that you had, if it was put before him?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot answer that.
	There is also, in paragraph 9, I see there is an appendix that I don't know if that refers to anything else, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you don't for a moment suggest that there would be anything in the appendix to contradict what was above the signature of the Commissioner of Police?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot say, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now there are just one or two aspects that I want to put to you.  Would you agree that it was the pride of Cradock that not a single window pane of their schools was damaged due to the influence of Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember the exact conditions at the different schools in the area...

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you able to deny what I have put to you?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember specifically anything to the contrary, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that on the information available to the Commissioner, no offence was committed by Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: No offence that we could charge him for, according to our information Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you see, we don't know what your information was other than what you tell us, and it's possible that you may not be believed.  This is why the question was on the information supplied by the Commissioner.
	Do you agree that no chargeable offence could be brought against Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now can you please - you know in your applications we get this chorus about people's courts, murders, necklacing and everything else.
	Now let's deal with Cradock where Mr Goniwe was.   Were there any people's courts, that held any trials in Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember specifically what happened in Cradock.  The "G-Plan" of which Mr Goniwe was the architect, prescribed the establishment of people's courts and street committees, that should replace the normal procedures.
	That happened in a lot of towns and townships and villages where Mr Goniwe...

GEORGE BIZOS: Street committees and community courts are one thing.  What I am asking you is whether there were any Kangaroo courts, in which people were tried in Cradock, or whether there were any killings in Cradock, or any serious assaults against anybody in Cradock or any other of the gruesome things that you describe in your application as the state of affairs in Port Elizabeth.
	Was any of that taking place in Cradock or not?

MR J VAN ZYL: I was personally at Cradock when there was unrest and stone throwing at various occasions, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Stone throwing at who?

MR J VAN ZYL: At the police.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the police, by youngsters.  By school children?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, do you know of it being made public in a newspaper article that Mr Goniwe himself prevented youngsters from actually throwing stones at the police on a specific occasion and that he was the person who took the initiative to do that?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember if I knew about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, if I understand you correctly, this "G Plan" , the author of which was Mr Goniwe himself,  was there any rate of success in this plan?

MR J VAN ZYL: Very much so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that not be grounds enough, or sufficient grounds, to charge him?  For a crime?

MR J VAN ZYL: If there was anybody that would give evidence against him at the time, we would have certainly done that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you couldn't attach the authorship of this "G Plan" to him?  With any measure of success, in a court of law?

MR J VAN ZYL: In a court of law is unfortunately different at a time like that Mr Chairman.
	The amount of intimidation at that time was incredible. And I investigated even murder cases in Port Elizabeth at the time where in the beginning there were a lot of witnesses and in the end they would just not give evidence.  And I think everybody can remember that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, it was possible of course to obtain statements at Sanlam, under torture, was it not.

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I don't know what you are talking about, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You don't know what I am talking about?  Is that what you said, Mr Van Zyl?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, we won't go along that path of the history of Sanlam buildings for the purposes of this inquest Mr Van Zyl.
	Let me confine myself to Cradock.

MR J VAN ZYL: I never tortured anybody or got a statement through torture, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR J VAN ZYL: I said I never tortured anybody or got a statement through torture like you are insinuating, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but a lot of false information was procured by your colleagues at Sanlam buildings.  Didn't you know about that?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You didn't follow the cases that were going on in the courts in which those were exposed and numerous statements were thrown out by the courts.  Taken by your colleagues at Sanlam buildings.

MR J VAN ZYL: I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You have no knowledge of that.
	But let's deal with this matter.  If you had such vital information, would it not have been in a file and if it was reliable, would it not have been in a file and would not the Commissioner have suggested stronger measures against Mr Goniwe rather than supporting his re-instatement?

MR J VAN ZYL: If the information had been sent up from the Divisional Headquarters to Pretoria, he would have been in possession of that information, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any reason to keep it away from the Commissioner that was asked to comment on this?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I know of, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, in relation to the information available about his re-instatement, there will be evidence that it was generally known in Cradock and elsewhere that a decision was taken to re-instate him and that he expected to be the principal of the school, when schools opened in the middle of the year.
	Did you know about that - that it was generally known?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I cannot remember that.