Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We made them stand on the edge next to each other and then we stood behind them and we shot.  I did not shoot an leave.  I shot him, he fell, the next one shot, he fell and the third one shot and the third person.  All of them were lying down there.  We did not go to confirm whether they were dead, we just took it that they were dead and we came back.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, I misunderstood you the first time, sorry.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, I think the question - perhaps just to take it further, coming back you had taken people out and now you are coming back and those people are no longer in your company, that is the victims.  What was the reaction of the other victims, the ones that had been left behind?  How did they take that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We were asked whether we shot them and we responded: "Yes" and it was decided who are the next three to go: "take your guns, go" and that was that.

MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question.  Basically I want the reaction of the victims, not your comrades or your friends.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I would not know their reaction but I already told you that the comrades were in the kitchen and they were in the dining room and they did not know that the three of us went with the three of them.  We were in separate rooms.  I would not know what their reactions were.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you yourself speak to any one of these victims at any time?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: When we arrived at Glen's house it was not necessary really to speak to them but it was to inform that: "Even though you do not give us information you are going to shit".  That is what I told them.

MR TLOUBATLA: You were carrying about three people in your car when you drove to Glen's house, how did you, in the first place, where were they, were they in the boot as you were travelling to Glen's house and how did you take them into the house itself?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: They were in the boot.  We drove the car into the yard and we opened the boot and they got out of the boot and into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were in your boot?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: ...[end of tape]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[start of new tape]

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was a Chevrolet 4.1

CHAIRPERSON: Did they all manage to fit into the boot?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, they had no choice.

CHAIRPERSON: And before shooting them, from Glen's house right up to the point where they were shot, did you personally speak to any one of them?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not say anything specific to them, I just told them to tell us the truth.  If they were not telling us the truth they were going to shit.  That's what I told them if I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: So up the hill there you did not, before shooting, you did not say anything to anyone of them?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Nothing Sir, I did not say anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally assault any one of these victims?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No-one Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not even once?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Not even once.

CHAIRPERSON: You never touched any one of them?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not touch one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloublata, would this be the appropriate stage to adjourn until 2 o'clock?

MR TLOUBATLA: I think so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: (s.u.o.)

MR TLOUBATLA: We were at a point when you told us that you shot these people and then they fell down a ravine or something like that and then after shooting these people what did you do?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We went back to Glen's house and we reported that we shot them and the second group took over.  I explained already that they were six in number.  We took the first three and our fellow comrades took the last three.

MR TLOUBATLA: During the lunch adjournment I was consulting with Thandakubona and then he mentioned that he personally didn't participate in the shooting itself, he was involved but nevertheless the shooting in itself he was not there, what do you say to that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I said this took place in 1986 and many things happened thereafter, I would not perfectly remember everybody who was there but according to my recollection I thought he was there.   I would not refute that we took part in different ways.

MR TLOUBATLA: The firearms that you were using, who supplied those firearms?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Some of the firearms we bought.  I remember well, it was in the morning of the burial of comrade Khomezulu.  I was not there, we went to the East Rand to fetch the firearms.  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you, the gun that you used that day, they're asking about the gun you used that day, where did you get it from?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The firearm that I had with me had been in my possession for quite some time and I think it was bought in East Rand.  There is another one that was taken from a security guy that was shot in Orlando.  I do not remember where the others came from but we bought most of them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you just sit back a little bit, just sit back because you are disturbing the mike, sit back.  What I want to know is, alright, they were bought, were they bought by yourself or somebody within the organisation supplied the firearms, that's what I want to know.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: People were assigned and given tasks within the organisation, that you and somebody else will go and find us firearms.  If I remember well, two of the comrades that have applied for amnesty were given the task of getting the guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, I don't know if there is a misunderstanding between your client and the interpreter.  A pertinent question has been asked: "The firearm that you used to shoot, you personally, the firearm that you used that day, where did you get it from"?  And then he answered to say that he had been having that firearm for a long time before that, but that doesn't tell us where you got the firearm from.  The questions still stands: "Where did you get the firearm from that you used that day"?  Where did you get it from?

MR TLOUBATLA: Who gave it to you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The firearms that we used were the property of the organisation.  It was not mine per se, it belonged to the organisation.  I know of the firearms that were disarmed from the security personnel.  Some were bought in East Rand.  I have explained already that when we arrived on the morning of Khomezulu's burial we were out to buy firearms, that cannot be an individual's property.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to the question?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, that is my answer.

MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps just to clarify it a little bit, you say the firearms were bought, did you have money, did you take out money from your pocket to go and buy those firearms or did somebody give the money so that these firearms could be purchased?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Branches collected money and bought firearms, each branch would collect money for its own defence.  These were not individuals firearms, they rotated.

MR TLOUBATLA: So the firearms ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Tloubatla.  What kind of weapon did you shoot your victim with, was it a pistol or a revolver or an AK47?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask you for the last time, where did you get that pistol from?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I would not specifically say I got it from somebody but I do remember firearms were bought for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get it from the Dutch Reformed Church?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, where did you get it from Sir?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We took the firearms from the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which organisation?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: AZAPO.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should we have such a great difficulty in simply getting from you: "Where did you get the weapon you used from"?  "I got it from AZAPO".  	Mr Tloubatla?