Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: Do they say that they didn't see anybody with an AK47?

UNKNOWN: None of them at the time of the inquest proceedings testified as to the existence of this man with the AK47.  They did not see a man with an AK47 brandished in the fashion as Mr Zuma is now conveying to this Committee.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The recollection of events will always be different from one person to the other so we are not one and the same person, we've got different brains, different memories so they'll recall their own way, I'll recall it this way and further that they did not see is not my fault.

UNKNOWN: Do you maintain that regardless of these gentlemen not having seen the man the man was definitely there with the AK47?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I have no doubt in my mind.

UNKNOWN: I want to put to you that the objectors on whose behalf I appear would deny that any such attack was taking place on the ANC guards at the time when the ANC guards started firing?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well that would also be their version of what happened, that is not my version.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zuma, the fact of the building to the top of your head, I think you mentioned or you used the word the parapet being struck by bullets and the dust sifting down.  Do you agree with me that piece of evidence does not appear in your affidavit?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Precisely it doesn't appear precisely for the reason that I've mentioned to you earlier on.

MR LAX: In fairness to the witness in the course of his evidence in the inquest proceedings before the ballistics information became available, he spoke of dust filtering down - I think it should be put in it's totality.

UNKNOWN: It is indeed correct, I'm getting to your evidence in the inquest, would you agree with me that at the inquest proceedings you said that shots were being fired in your direction from the crowd specifically by the man with the AK47 and as a result of that dust sifted down from the parapet?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is the theory, is the picture that is in my mind of what happened.  That is the recollection that I have in my mind and I still have that recollection in my mind but I have been proved otherwise by the ballistics and I concede to and I did to your learned friend on the other side there.

UNKNOWN: Now what distance were you away from Mr Eddie Khumalo at the time when the shooting occurred?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He was not very far from me.

UNKNOWN: What does that mean Mr Zuma, can you indicate in court - in front of the Committee the distance or perhaps give an estimate in metres?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The estimate in metres I cannot give because you know, I did not have some gadget to assist me measuring the distance but I can tell you it was not very far.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you point out approximately?  The gentleman sitting next to you - two and half to three paces.

UNKNOWN: As the Committee pleases Mr Chair.
	Now in relation to the direction in which you were facing where was Mr Khumalo positioned with relation to where you were facing, was it to your right, to your left, to the front of you, behind you?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: It becomes very difficult to recollect you know such nitty grittys but I know that Eddie was there, he was next to me but now to be precise as to where the left, right, it's difficult but I can give you an estimate that I'm sure he was on the right if we're facing De Villiers.

UNKNOWN: If you say that I take it that he was within your view, you could see him clearly?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes I could see him but I was not looking at him.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that if an automatic burst of fire was emanating from his firearm at this specific point in time when you perceived the crowd to be attacking you, you would have clearly been able to recognise the fire coming from Mr Khumalo's firearm?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well, to recognise what do you mean, do you mean by way of seeing or way of hearing?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] whether you saw or whether you heard fire emanating from Mr Khumalo's firearm?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I heard fire coming from his firearm.

UNKNOWN: The ballistic evidence is indicative of the fact that the shots that hit the parapet was in all probability emanating from the AK47 that Mr Eddie Khumalo had, do you agree with that finding?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Being put as a probability, do you say it is possible?

UNKNOWN: No on the probabilities, I think it was actually even put stronger by counsel appearing on behalf of the ANC that it was indeed or that it had to come from the firearm of Mr Eddie Khumalo.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: This could have happened yes.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that there's no sign of any bullets having hit the immediate vicinity where you say they hit the parapet emanating from the crowd?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I've already conceded to that this morning.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain Mr Zuma how you in your mind could have perceived the shots that could only have come from Mr Eddie Khumalo's firearm that hit the parapet to have been coming from the crowd?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: There was no way I could have done that but there was fire, the crowd was firing at us and we were firing back at them.

UNKNOWN: So your evidence was quite clear, you said the fire from the crowd resulted in the parapet being struck and in dust sifting down on you.  How could that ever have been your impression if that was emanating from the fire that Mr Khumalo or the shots Mr Khumalo fired?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I did not say it emanated from Mr Khumalo's shots, I said it is possible that Mr Khumalo might have fired, the ballistics are showing some different aspects as you go through them, that it can be a ricochet from Eddie Khumalo's weapon but I did not say that, the ballistics says that and I'm saying, what I'm saying is my recollection of the events, I still maintain what I said before Judge Nugent that my recollection of the events is that they were firing at us but the ballistics are proving - made to be otherwise.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zuma, let's not beat about the bush.  It simply means this, you perceived the shots being fired by Mr Eddie Khumalo with his AK47 to be emanating from the crowd, that's the gist of the conclusion you draw and your perception?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well you are drawing that conclusion, not me.

UNKNOWN: Can you offer any other explanation?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Explanation as to?

UNKNOWN: As to why you perceived the shots that hit the parapet from which dust was sifting down to be coming from the crowd?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Because there was a man with an AK47 pointing in our direction.

UNKNOWN: How far was he from you at the time?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He was round the corner of De Villiers and King George.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree with me that looking at the plans that would be a distance at least of forty metres or in access of forty metres?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Round about there.

UNKNOWN: And you perceived the shots or you perceived shots to be ringing out from a firearm forty metres away whereas in truth on the ballistic evidence, it was ringing out two and half to three paces away from you, is that your evidence?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The ballistics does not say that the shots was first fired by Mr Khumalo, it does not say that so I'm saying to you the shots that I heard as far as I can recollect emanated from that person that was pointing a firearm at us.  Whether they came directly to us it has been proved by the ballistics that it might have been directed somewhere.

UNKNOWN: Please Mr Zuma, the evidence indicates or your evidence was that those shots hit the parapet.  We know now from the ballistic evidence that the shots that hit the parapet was those coming from Mr Khumalo's firearm, from nobody else's firearm?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I agree with the ballistics in so far as that is concerned.