Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am convinced that had the Communist Party stood in the election, that would not have been the case.  The Communist Party and the Communist members rode in on the back of the populist African National Congress whom they knew had the support they required to attain power.

UNKNOWN: Do you trust the judgement of the people of South Africa over yours sometimes, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, each person is entitled to his own opinion.  I too am entitled to an opinion.

UNKNOWN: Mr Derby-Lewis, you did not bother to find out anything about Mr Chris Hani's attitude during this period.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman, there was - sorry, I thought you had finished.

UNKNOWN: I am going to ask the Committee's permission to show something recorded a few days before his death for you, for the Committee and you to see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: On the 6th of, it was on the 6th of April 1993, Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, can Mr Bizos just repeat that date?

UNKNOWN: The 6th of April.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: 6th of April 1993, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Four days before his death.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I see they had no problem showing Dr Hartzenberg from a similar angle.

CHAIRPERSON: Please put it louder.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Volume.  The speaker.
RECORDING STARTED
MR HANI:  ... for a, for democratic elections.
		PRESENTER:  Chris Hani said the recent violence in Natal and the PWV region was cause for concern.
		MR HANI:  The ambushing of the ordinary, you know, White kids and women along some of our highways is something that is not acceptable and I am saying to these Comrades here that every member of the ANC should be a combatant by these type of things, a fighter for peace.
		PRESENTER:  The crowd then marched to Modderbee Prison where scores of East Rand activists are allegedly being ill-treated or held without trial.  The ANC and its affiliates claim that they were... 
RECORDING ENDED

UNKNOWN: You saw, did you, Mr Derby-Lewis, the late Mr Hani calling for peace and for the success of the negotiations?  That is the man that you killed, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Derby-Lewis, you made an attempt to apologise, firstly, in your statement where you actually apologise to the people on your side and the trouble that you gave them by your arrest.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: No apology for the killing of Mr Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: In the absence of Mrs Hani, you took the opportunity of not even checking whether she was present or not and you purported to apologise to her.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, up until the time that I made my statement, I was aware that Mrs Hani was in the audience.  I had no information that she had left and I really believed that she was present, because I wanted to speak to her anyway.

UNKNOWN: And then you, when you saw that she was here, you said certain words purporting to be an apology to her.  Have you apologised about wasting a valuable life that may have made a valuable contribution to the people of South Africa, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, may I ask is this a condition and is this something over which the Committee should then be subjected to evidence?  My impression was that an apology was not necessary and not part of the whole function of this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Bizos, the Act does not require an applicant to apologise for what he did.  He is required to make a full disclosure of what he did.

UNKNOWN: I am not unmindful.  The question was not for the purposes, but in order to test his sincerity on the supposed apologies to Mrs Hani, Mr Chairman.  It is not only, I am not asking as a question of law.  I am asking as to whether this person that is before you has ever expressed regret for killing a person who could have made a valuable contribution to the political life of this country or not.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, no.  How can I ever apologise for an act of war.  War is war.  I have not heard the ANC apologising, the perpetrators of these deeds for apologising for killing people in pubs and blowing them up in Wimpy Bars.  I have heard no apologies for that, Mr Chairman.  Those people are just as important as Mr Hani was.

UNKNOWN: We are dealing with your case today and let us confine ourselves ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: ... to your case Mr Derby-Lewis.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, the upshot of it all is that as far as Mr Derby-Lewis is concerned, he regarded what he did as an act of war and that ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: And he does ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... and there was no need for him to apologise.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us move on from there, Mr Bizos.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, may I also state that my apology to Mrs Hani and her children was done in an attempt to reach out a hand of reconciliation to her which I hoped, very sincerely, that she would have taken.  That was my intention, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I can understand the anger of these people and I do not criticise them for that, Mr Chairman.  I understand.

UNKNOWN: You killed a person as an act of war who, four days before his death, was calling among a multitude of people, for peace, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he called among a multitude of his people.  He did not phone me up and say, listen, I am going to make this speech.  He did not phone, he did not advise Dr Hartzenberg as one of the leaders or Dr Treurnicht as one of the leaders that he was a man of peace.  I want, Mr Chairman, I am quite sure that senior members of the CP will confirm that at no time did Mr Hani ever bring his intentions, excuse me, his intentions to the attention of the Conservative Party or the right.  So, how would we know about that, Mr Chairman, unless we watched the TV programmes, which I have already said, I have not watched.

UNKNOWN: You were invited to CODESA and you refused not to go.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: How can you put the blame on Mr Hani ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: ... for not taking part in the political process and then say that you killed him because you did not know that he was calling for peace?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: May I reply, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I think your party's attitude towards CODESA is a matter on which you have already given evidence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is on record, Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... that we refused to participate, because it was to do with the betrayal and sell-out of our people and the loss of our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: "The amnesty process is for the purpose of
achieving reconciliation".
Mr Derby-Lewis.  You have already told us that you do not believe in the united South Africa, you do not believe in common citizenship and you are not prepared to apologise for killing a man who was calling for peace four days before his death.  Is that a fair summary of your evidence, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.  What Mr Bizos is doing now is he is selectively quoting out of the new Constitution which was not in existence at the time of Mr Hani's assassination and which also says that I am entitled to freedom of political expression or is there, am I misunderstanding this whole document?
	Please, Mr Chairman, let me place on record that I think that, that Constitution is a good Constitution when one considers what the objective of the Constitution is.  I can see much to praise in that Constitution, but the fact remains, Mr Chairman, that nothing can convince me that my peoples' right to self-determination is wrong.  I cannot accept that, Mr Chairman, and if I said I was sorry, I would actually be admitting that, and I would then become worse than just a liar.