Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: When we arrive at Mduse, at Mduse Zuma's, we found his mother and she said "my boys I have a problem."  There is a boy who actually came here twice or thrice, we don't actually understand that person and actually asked questions, wouldn't understand and it was at night and instantly that person knocked and Mduse's mother said this is the person and we just looked at each other and we don't know this person and we started by asking him what is his aim.
	By arguing, Mduse's mother actually realised that we were about to beat this person and we will actually kill him eventually and Mduse's mother chased us outside and said "you will actually destroy my furniture, go outside with this boy."  
	Outside we switched off the lights that is on top and then we asked him.  When we were in the middle of asking him what's his aim of coming here and he just started to run away.  A distance from say here up to that door and then we catch up with him, at Mr Mjali's.

CHAIRPERSON: That distance is 30 paces.

MR WILLS: Yes I don't have a problem with that, thank you.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: And then we catch up with him at teacher Mjali's place.  The teacher Mjali was working there teaching at Wozanazo and then we did not enter at Mduse's place and then we went to that ground Wozanazo's ground and we asked him why are you running away we were just talking to you and you just run away and then he told us that he will join us then.  Then we asked him what is it that you were looking for here and then he told us that he just want to see how many are we, how are we working and thereafter we stabbed him.

MR WILLS: Did you yourself stab him?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it's myself, I also stabbed him.

MR WILLS: And you say you were with other persons, can you remember the names of the other persons you were with?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed I do remember.

MR WILLS: Well tell the Committee.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It was Bhani, Bhani Kambule, Slowane, Sepiwe Geti, Mdu Zoma and the others.

MR WILLS: Those are the persons whose names you can remember, that there were others there as well?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes there are others but I remembered this quite - very well.

MR WILLS: Now as I understand it there were a number of people who stabbed him not only yourself, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is what I say.

MR WILLS: And did he die?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes he did die.

MR WILLS: Now why did you kill him?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: We were killing him because he's a UDF member and he's actually coming to check or to check our camps, the IFP camps.  What I can say that here at Mpumalanga they were actually attacking each other so there were people who were watch dogs, who were actually killing him so that he doesn't take the information from the IFP camp to the other comrades.

MR WILLS: Now did ...[intervention]

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wills, may I interpose here?
	How did you verify that he was a UDF member?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: When we were beating him he actually eventually told us the entire truth.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Wills?   I might actually use this point when we examine Mr Hlongwane.
	Mr Hlongwane you state that you killed him to prevent him from taking information about your group, your group's activities to the UDF, that's the reason you've just stated for killing this person?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What kind of information would he have been able to take to the UDF about your activities?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: He would actually take that which are the houses where we are camping and how many are we.  That's the information I'm referring to.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At that stage what kind of information had you been able to establish?  From your evidence he had not been able to establish anything then in the process of interrogating him he had only come in during the day, found Mrs Zuma in the house, he left without having established any information, he came back at night - that's when he found you - and he knocked for the second time.  Mrs Zuma then recognised that he was the same person who had been there earlier on.  What kind of information had he been able to establish within that short space of time?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Thank you.  The information that he has is that the information that of - when he sees us entering this house he would actually realise that this is the camp and that is the confirmation that this is the house that we used for our camping.  That is the information that he had.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you used to going to Mr Zuma's house for your camping?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, that is the house that we used to camp in and it used to be attacked severely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Did you report this incident to anybody?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I took it as it is to Zekele Nkethle.

MR WILLS: And what did he say to you?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: He was very much happy.

MR WILLS: Now I want to turn to the third incident you referred to - that is the death of Thulani Hlongwane during the early part of 1987 at Unit 1 North Mpumalanga.  Can you expand on that please?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I can explain all briefly.  Thulani Hlongwane died because of his brother.  Here at Mpumalanga there was something called HYCO.  This HYCO was under the UDF, the Hammarsdale Youth Congress.   This HYCO out of the blue Mashush Gangi and Stembiso and Khumalo would actually release the kids from school.  We asked why and then they told us that at 3 and at 1 the kids are leaving the school.  Why?  Because we don't want to be beaten and then Zekele then asked us one the days and called us and said "do you realise what's happening, look for Sgangi now because he's the one who is a leader" and thereafter the two followed, looked for Sgangi.

MR WILLS: So just to try and make sure that what you're saying is clear, you were saying that the inference that you are drawing here is that Sgangi was the person who was in charge of the Hammarsdale Youth Congress, that was involved in the disruption of the education of the schools, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed, it is like that.

MR WILLS: Do you know Sgangi's surname?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: And what was that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Hlongwane.

MR WILLS: And he was in fact Thulani's brother, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it's like that, my lord.

MR WILLS: And Nkethle had established that this person was involved in the schools and he had asked you to make sure that you sorted this person out, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Nkethle thereafter said we must look for Sgangi no matter what, Sgangi must be killed and that's when we left and then we were looking, actually going out looking for him.  He used to burn people's houses, stabbing people and he - what we as ...[indistinct] were doing, he was doing on the other side.
	We looked for him for several times and we couldn't even find him at his home and then one afternoon I told Zekele Nkethle and he told me that it is advisable to make some means of getting hold of Sgangi in the night vision and then we should kill then Thulani so that Sgangi must be in that night vision, that is how we will actually get hold of Sgangi.  I then told these boys.

MR WILLS: I didn't hear you - as I understand your evidence, you refer to a night vigil, is that right?  What did you mean by you must get this person a night vigil?

INTERPRETER: Sorry I meant a night vision - it's like when a person is dead and the night before the person is buried it's a night vision, that is what he means.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I think the concept has been cleared up.  And how did you go about ensuring that this individual attended at this, for want of a better phrase, ceremony?