Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

MR KAHANOVITZ: So therefore to say
"I was not at all involved in the formulation of such plans, nor was I involved in any attempt to execute such plans"
is wrong, because you were involved in the preparatory stages of the implementation of that plan.

LEON A MAREE: If we look at it the other way, that's why  I'm applying for this.  That's why I'm applying for amnesty in the first place.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why were you doing work in the Transvaal on Mr Evans?

LEON A MAREE: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, we don't know either.  We're told that Mr Botha was given the Transvaal and we're told that you were given Natal.  But we're now told that you were the guy who was checking up on Evans in Transvaal.  Could you explain that to us?

LEON A MAREE: No, I can't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've got no idea?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well we don't either.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry Mr Chairman, but there was also evidence that although specific problems were allotted, that it didn't  mean that the operative couldn't operate anywhere else.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no we're aware, but I think the question was fair, if he knew why he was given that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But it also appears at this stage of the game that you could operate anywhere in the world, so maybe ...  Now Mr van Zyl says in his evidence that an in-house was held in March 1989 regarding Gavin Evans and he says that you were in fact present at that in-house.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But Mr Chairman, he also, questioned by myself, conceded that he may be incorrect.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I just want - I'm putting Mr van Zyl's original evidence to you.

CHAIRPERSON: But what do you say to that?

LEON A MAREE: No, it's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In fact Mr van Zyl not only testified that you were at that in-house, Mr van Zyl says that you relayed, let me put this question in context.  Mr van Zyl was being asked:  "Why do you say that Evans was Maree's project?" and one of the reasons he gave, was he says that you relayed certain information to him about this project.

LEON A MAREE: No, that's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So, just for purposes of the record that's at page 1374, of the typed record.  Do I take it then that your evidence is that in fact you never even discussed the Evans project with van Zyl?

LEON A MAREE: No, I didn't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You had no reason to ever have a discussion with van Zyl about the Evans' project?

LEON A MAREE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, as a member of the CCB, after attending that initial course, ever have occasion to have contact  with your colleagues, Mr van Zyl, Mr Botha and others?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, I did, we had weekly meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: You had weekly meetings. Sort of scheduled, every week you had a meeting?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if there wasn't anything really specific to discuss?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, just while we're here.  These weekly meetings, how did they work?

LEON A MAREE: We would arrange, each one would get a turn to book an hotel room and we'd meet at that particular hotel room and that's how we'd meet.

MR LAX: Yes, but what would happen?  Would you all be present together in the same room?

LEON A MAREE: We were initially present together.  If there was work to be done, each one would come in separately to speak to the Co-ordinator and Mr Burger, so I wouldn't be present if van Zyl was meeting them or if Botha was meeting then and so too, they wouldn't be present when I was meeting them, but we would be there to do our administration and car logs and finances.

MR LAX: And would you have general meetings where all of you were present and general matters were discussed applicable to all of you?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.  I think so, yes.

MR LAX: What sort of issues would be discussed there?

LEON A MAREE: Maybe medical - I'm just trying to think off-hand now, medical bills and more administrative kind of stuff.

MR LAX: ;   You never discussed policy together?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR LAX: So you all understood the guidelines better?

LEON A MAREE: I think informally we did that, yes, but not at a formal meeting.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you told to concentrate on Trade Unions in Natal?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who told you that?

LEON A MAREE: Mr Burger.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger.  What was going to be the purpose of those activities?

LEON A MAREE: No, I don't know, it was in the initial stage, he gave me advice,  "If you're working in an hotel, see if you can get into Trade Unions and into the Motel Indian Congress", that was my ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: In the sense that that was the enemy?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  And did you ever do anything about it?

LEON A MAREE: No, I didn't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you have difficulty adjusting to your new job in the CCB?

LEON A MAREE: I had difficulty in adjusting, not in the CCB, I had difficulty in adjusting to my blue plan, getting these businesses going.  I didn't envisage that it would run away with me.  I battled to keep up with the business world because it wasn't my forte at all.  That's why I went on courses, to try and keep up, it grew too quickly so I couldn't, I was in a catch 22 position.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, if someone in the CCB had to say the following, I just want you to comment, if they were asked:  "Why did you appear to do so little in Natal?" and the answer they gave was:  "Well, you had difficulty adjusting to the working methods of the CCB", what would your comment be?  In fact you had, let me phrase it a bit stronger, you had a lot of problems.

LEON A MAREE: Ja, I did have a lot of problems trying to run two companies with no experience, I had major problems there, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words you're telling us you were so focused on your business that you didn't really have the time to get involved in the Natal Indian Congress and the Trade Unions?

LEON A MAREE: Well, the business to me, as I said, initially it didn't go about the money, it was important to me to establish it because without that I couldn't function.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, I understand your evidence, you say you can't separate the two issues.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You had to establish your business first.

LEON A MAREE: That's what I tried to do.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's what you saw as your priority.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: Can I just say this though, or ask this if I may?  Those sorts of issues about dealing with business and being inexperienced and basically being stretched to the limit, that's got nothing to do with not being able to adapt to the military style of management.

LEON A MAREE: No, the military, I had no problem with the military, I was in the police for 23 years, so I have no problem with that.

MR LAX: Well you see the focus of the comment that Mr Kahanovitz put to you was put in that context.  You were a policeman and you weren't used to the military way and that was why you had trouble fitting in.

LEON A MAREE: Well my opinion is not that, maybe the military would have a different opinion to that, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just for sake of completeness, the source of that evidence was Wouter Basson, that's at page 2264 of the record.  He says
"I think he had a lot of problems to adjust to the new methods and modus operandi."
Now evidence has been produced that there was an interest in Jay Naidoo.  Were you ever asked to look into Jay Naidoo?

LEON A MAREE: No, I wasn't, Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Evidence was produced at the Harms Commission and the Harms Commission found that there was a CCB plan to kill an attorney in Durban, Mr Mhlaba and that plan was to be implemented on the 13th of March 1989.

LEON A MAREE: No, I never heard of him before.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Never heard of him.  Alright.  Now as regards the Omar project, were you at any stage during 1989 aware that there was such a project?