Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I decided that in order for this to seem like a robbery, was to shoot him and take the watch, and go away with it.

MR NEMANE: And ...

ADV DE JAGER: And the next day, what do you want to do with the watch?  The day after you shot him, did you keep the watch or what did you do with the watch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was still in my possession.

ADV DE JAGER: And on your arm or what did you do with it?  Did you wear the watch at that stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, it was still in my pocket.

MR NEMANE: Now at the time when you committed the alleged robbery of the - the robbery of when you removed - let me paraphrase this.  At the time when you removed the furniture from the house of Mr Venter, where did you live?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which time are you referring to?

MR NEMANE: At the time when Mr Venter, at the time when Mr Venter was killed, where did you live?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In Pretoria.

MR NEMANE: And what address did you regard as your home in Bloemfontein at that stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was residing in the barracks.

MR NEMANE: Did you have a home in Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, my mother and my sisters and brothers were staying in Kwaggafontein.

MR NEMANE: And after how many days, how many days after the robbery were you arrested?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I do not remember clearly.

MR NEMANE: Was it on the following day or was it about a week later?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It can be three to four days, or more than that, I cannot recall clearly.

MR NEMANE: And where did you spend the three nights before your arrest?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: At Botshabelo.

MR NEMANE: Now you will pardon me, I don't know this area well. Is the house where the furniture was kept, in Botshabelo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was at G55.

MR NEMANE: I think the house is said to be in K Section or S Section, that is the house where the informers were said to live. That is the house I am asking you about.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I never lived in that house, only informers did.

MR NEMANE: And where is that house situated?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In S Section.

MR NEMANE: Is that S Section also in Botshabelo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, Sir.

MR NEMANE: And how many, how far, where did you spend the three nights then, did you spend the three nights at that house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No.

MR NEMANE: Where did you spend the three nights?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was supposed to sleep at the barracks, but I went to my sister's place in G55.

MR NEMANE: And with whom did you stay at G55?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was not staying there, my sister stays there.

MR NEMANE: And did you during the three nights use any of the furniture that was removed from Mr Venter's?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, it is a far way off, it is quite a distance, it
is from here up to Ramkraal Prison or at the Jacaranda depot, bus depot.

MR NEMANE: Of which police station in Khemong?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If we can assume that that police station is here,  my sister's house is 50 metres from the police station.

MR NEMANE: Now I know you have indicated that you have some difficulty with making estimations, but how many kilometres would it be from where you spent the three nights to the house where Mr Venter's furniture was kept?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I have indicated that I am not good when it comes to indicating kilometres.

ADV DE JAGER: How long would it take you to walk from the one place to the other?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Are you referring from there to my sister's house?

ADV DE JAGER: From the barracks to the S Section where the furniture was kept, or from your sister's house - ja, from your sister's house to where the furniture was kept?

MR NEMANE: I do not know how long would it take by foot but I only used a car.

ADV DE JAGER: How long would it take you by car?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I never took note of time when I drove there to.

ADV DE JAGER: Ag please Mr Ngo, you have got matric and you are trying to evade the questions, that would not be to your advantage.  You should try and co-operate and give the full truth so that we could consider whether we could give you amnesty. But if you are not helpful in trying to assist us, we will not finish this case and it would be to your disadvantage.  So please try and help the Committee.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I do not want to tell the Commission a lie, because I might give the wrong answer and say it is 10 to 15 minutes, because should you come back to me with the answer given and say how do I know, then I would be in a corner.  I don't want to give controversial answers.

MR NEMANE: Mr Ngo, let me put the point which the Commissioner is putting in a more caring fashion.  You see, if you don't - if you avoid answering the question, because you fear that you might put yourself into a corner, you are creating a difficulty that the Commission is unable to find that they are satisfied that you told them everything that you know about the incident.  So even if it is difficult for you to make the estimation, you must make an attempt and say that it might be wrong, that will suffice,  an attempt you must make.  Now I will repeat the question that was asked by the Commissioner.  If you are walking or you are driving, how long would it take you to get there.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It could be 15 minutes.

MR NEMANE: Is that when you are driving or when you are walking?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is when you are driving at a higher speed.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Nemane, where did your client stay during the three days?  I think I missed that one.

MR NEMANE: He said he stayed at G55 at his sister's place. Now during that you said you took, did you take that ring before Mr Venter died?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Those are rings that we took when we took those goods there.  Sgt Mamume took jewellery and I took the ring.

MR NEMANE: And did you decide that you are going to take the ring before Mr Venter died?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I have never seen that ring on him.  I just found it amongst the property that was in Botshabelo.

MR NEMANE: You mentioned that a TV set was taken by another person, who is the person that took the TV set?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was given to those people because when they were paid, after I had taken the ring and Sgt Mamume took the jewellery, he wanted to know what are they interested in, they said that they will take the TV in order to be able to use it at the National Hospital where they work and he gave them that television set and R50,00 each.

MR NEMANE: Do you recall whether you were charged with or convicted of the stealing or robbery of the TV set?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Are you referring to these besides these charges?

MR NEMANE: During the course of the trial, did those items that were not taken by you, form part of the case?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, all this list was added in my case.

ADV DE JAGER: He answered that the TV was given to "them", "they who assisted", could you kindly find out who they are?

MR NEMANE: I thought, Mr Chairman, he was referring to the informers that went with Mamume to the scene and stayed behind, but did not get into the house.  But we might ...

ADV DE JAGER: (...indistinct)

MR NEMANE: As the Court pleases.

JUDGE WILSON: He said in his evidence they were taken with them to the National Hospital where they were.  Didn't he?

MR NEMANE: As the Court pleases.  Now as the Committee pleases.  Mr Ngo, who did you give the - who are the "they" that you referred to when you said the TV was given to them?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Those are the people who assisted us in fetching the things, Khefi and Dan.  They said they are going to use it in the National Hospital where they worked.

MR NEMANE: Was the TV recovered?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I saw it appearing in the exhibit list.