Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, Mr Mthembu was staying on the farm before thereafter they moved to Empangisa area where the most Mkhize people stayed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Yes.  So at least three of the Mkhize's now were members of the ANC, you were aware of that weren't you?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Can you repeat that?

MR MAPOMA: At least three of the Mkhizes, during the faction fighting, what you call the faction fighting, three of the Mkhizes at least were members of the ANC that was known to you?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct but I would like to comment on that.  At that time when Mr Sepo Mkhize was already dead at that time when this incident took place and I'm not sure but Sepo Mkhize at that time was already the deceased or not.

MR MAPOMA: Yes fair enough.  Did you at all investigate, I'm not asking you personally now, was it ever investigated the causes of what you call the faction fighting?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes it was investigated.

MR MAPOMA: Who investigated that?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It was members, my colleagues in the mid Illovo area.

MR MAPOMA: Did you get the report?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: What else I can say is that you see it was investigated in this way, maybe a person would be killed and then a murder docket will be opened and it will booked to a certain officer and then he will investigate that murder case.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, so you were just investigating a crime which was committed in the course of what you call the faction fighting?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You did not go deep into investigating what are the causes of this faction fighting?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can say we went deep because we used to question the people, ask them what they were fighting for, what was their reason, the reason why they were fighting and then they will tell us this fight started over because the Mkhize people didn't want Mr Mthembu to be elected as the Induna for the youngsters because he was new in the area, they wanted the Mkhize people to be nominated as Induna of the youngsters.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  Now where is Mthembu?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: At the present stage?  You've asking at the present moment?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I don't know now because I've left mid Illovo about three years back.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  When did you leave mid Illovo?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I left mid Illovo in 1996.

MR MAPOMA: Now before you left what organisation did Tandakwasi Mthembu belong to?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know I didn't know which organisation did he belong to.

MR MAPOMA: Oh, up till 1994 you didn't happen to know which organisation Mthembu belonged to?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: In April 1994 were you still at mid Illovo?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes I was still there.

ADV SANDI: Did any elections take place there, did the people participate in the April 1994 elections?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Elections did take place.

ADV SANDI: How did that go?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know everything went alright, there were no complaints to anybody, from any side.

ADV SANDI: I take it that you cannot claim to know the political perceptions that existed at mid Illovo at the time we're talking about today?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can say I know everything that took place at that time since I was working there in that area for a long time.

ADV SANDI: I'm talking about political perceptions.  You can't claim to know that who thinks what about who politically, can you?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Since there was, as I've said, since there was no political activities that took place or movements or anything that took place at that time I will say there was nothing of that matter.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ntshangase, you conceded that Mthembu was a traditionalist.  Would you say that the Mkhizes were also traditionalists?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes you can say both of them were traditionalists, that's so.

ADV BOSMAN: And the youngsters there, were they not a little less traditionalists than the older people?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I would not comment on that but although most of the youngsters in the area, in that area, they were still up with these elder people doing Zulu dance together, everything together.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did say that there were some differences on the Zulu dancing.  Was it not because some people were less traditionalists than other.

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It's not that causes the faction fight or the quarrel over the Zulu dances because the quarrel over the Zulu dance would appear if one group have performed better than the other group.

ADV BOSMAN: I misunderstood you there.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: Now do you know whether Sibo and Sepo Mkhize, were they staying in mid Illovo, Empangisa location?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Both of them were not staying in mid Illovo area.

MR SIBEKO: Now how did you come to know about it, was it through the word of mouth, in the newspapers or what?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, we used to hear over the radio and then sometimes when they go to Umbumbulo because Umbumbulo and mid Illovo were just close to each other.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words do you know whether the applicant was associated with Sepo Mkhize?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know I didn't know that the applicant was associated with Sepo Mkhize, I only found out just when they have made this application here.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you've heard that when you answered that you've considered that Sepo Mkhize was killed by the members of the police.  Now will you clarify as to which members because earlier on you mentioned that there is KwaZulu Police which were under KwaZulu Government and the SAP which were belonging to the old South Africa.  Now this Sepo Mkhize, which police officers killed him?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: If I'm not mistaken, Sepo Mkhize was killed by KwaZulu Police then Sibo he was shot at Lamontville by the I think it's the SAP.

MR SIBEKO: So in others words Sibo was waging a war against the whole police force who specifically was targeting KwaZulu Police, or what?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can say he was targeting to all the police.

MR SIBEKO: That is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ntshangase, you are excused, thank you very much.

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairperson well I don't think, because I was under the impression that maybe then I'll call the second victim but I don't think it will take the issue any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well if he's not going to add any substance to what Mr Ntshangase has said who seemed to have been very intimately involved with the case, with the incident that happened and the background to the area and so on and so forth.  It might not be of some assistance.

MR SIBEKO: I think what the only aspect he can only comment is to the day when this thing exactly happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Yes I don't know whether maybe then, but I'll leave it in the hands of the Committee maybe it would be appropriate and maybe then make some input as to actually what did he see and what was the reaction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well do you believe that he can add something on the incident itself?  The other witness that you had in mind?

MR SIBEKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You think so?

MR SIBEKO: There are two or three questions.