Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-02-11

ADV PRIOR: And if I understand your evidence that you've given this morning, you didn't particularly enjoy - if I can use that expression, shooting as you did but you were simply carrying out an order that you received from your superiors which was given in the context of the political struggle, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: I want to draw your attention to what the Judge, Mr Justice Hugo said at your trial - and I refer to pages 38 and 39 of Exhibit A Mr Chairman, at the bottom of page 38.
	Sorry, before I lead on with that, is it correct that at the trial you denied being part of the attack, you said you had not partaken or not participated in the attack of the disco, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: The Judge commented as follows in summarising your evidence
"He was awakened in the early hours of the morning by the sound of voices and he joined a number of people in the dinning room of Buthalezi's house where they were drinking beer"
Is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did you also drink beer with the others?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: I get the impression that [End of Tape A - no follow on sound]

ANDILE SHICEKA: Buthalezi's is the kind the house where we would normally sit.  Even during the day we would sit around and drink beer.

ADV PRIOR: No, you woke up, you were woken, you said to the Judge or the Court you were sleeping, you got up but now we know that's not true.  When you got back after the operation you started drinking beer.  I want to know, was that a form of celebration to celebrate the attack?  What was the reason for drinking beer at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Prior, I'm going to interrupt you there because your question is based on the assumption that the very sentence that
"we drank beer"
is correct, whereas we know that he told a lot of lies to the Judge.  Maybe we should first find out, even if that portion is the truth.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will.
	Mr Shiceka, as Mr Chairman has pointed out, did you in fact drink beer?

ANDILE SHICEKA: As I've already explained, we drink in that place. We did drink beer.

CHAIRPERSON: No, listen to this sentence.  The Judge says you joined a number of people in the dining room of Buthalezi's house where you were drinking in the early hours of the morning, is that true?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I wasn't telling the truth before the Judge, I was lying, I was trying to run away from the conviction.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, but in truth and in fact, was been consumed when you got back to Buthalezi's house after the attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We didn't drink.

ADV PRIOR: So there was no celebration at Buthalezi's house?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We didn't celebrate, we would stand on guard during the night, we didn't drink.

ADV PRIOR: Did you tell the Court that you were the senior officer of APLA in Newcastle at the time?
	Mr Chairman, I refer to page 40 of the bundle, Exhibit A.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Was that true or not true?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It wasn't the truth.

ADV PRIOR: Were you also running away from a conviction or maybe I can ask you this question, why did you say that during your trial, that you were the senior officer of APLA in Newcastle area?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I was trying to avoid a situation in this way. It's because I have to convince the Judge that I didn't go there to conduct operations but just to train PAC members.  That's the difference in Newcastle since there were some faction fights within political organisations at that time in the township.  Therefore I was trying to run away from the allegation that I was involved in the case.

ADV PRIOR: Tell me, Power, you indicted in your statement which was unsigned but it's been referred to, you said
"Power told me at Umtata"
Mr Chairman, at page 4 of Mr Shiceka's statement.
"Power told me at Umtata that we must meet at a certain house and told me to prepare for a trip to Newcastle"
Now Power, did you ever see him, have you ever seen him after the attack whilst you were in prison?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We didn't.

ADV PRIOR: You indicated in your evidence that the decisions or the decision to attack white target, in other words white civilians was a political decision, something over which you had no control.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Now over the past four years whilst you've been in prison, have you made any enquiries from the political leaders of the PAC or the military leaders of APLA regarding that position, as to whether that in fact was the true position at the time?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I think in my application form at the bottom there is the name of Leklapa Pathlele who was the director of operations of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: What about it?

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, is that at page 5?  Unfortunately he doesn't have - can we just show the applicant, Mr Shiceka the bundle Mr ...[indistinct], there's a spare bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Page?

ADV PRIOR: I think he's referring to page 5 of his application Mr Chairman.
	First of all, if you could just confirm that that is your application?  Is that your application?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, it is.

ADV PRIOR: And at page 5 you mention under paragraph 11(b)
"Under whose"
Sorry, the pages are hitting the microphone which is very sensitive.  Could you just move the document away, thank you.
"Under whose approval or order was the attack carried out"?
You referred to:
"Comrade Umzala who issued the order to take the war to the white areas and to destroy the state machinery"
Is that the person Leklapa Pathlele that you referred to?

ANDILE SHICEKA: This is Umzala from Transkei, the man who gave us the instruction to go and attack in Newcastle.  When or while I was in prison, people who came to visit me to help me with the amnesty application was a member of the parliament, comrade Sizani. The second one who came to visit me in Worcester is Leklapa Pathlele.
	Therefore I think comrade Sizani, the MP in Cape Town is the one who put through my application.  I thought the one which was before the Commission is the one that was put through Leklapa Pathlele because he also did an application on my behalf.  This is the one I'm referring to where below where it's written Commissioner of Oaths, as it was written by R K Sizani, Member of Parliament.  
	He's the first person who came to me while I was Pollsmoor prison in 1994.  Thereafter comrade Leklapa Pathlele, director of operations came later.  Therefore I thought the application before the Commission was signed by Leklapa Pathlele.  However it was the one by comrade Sizane in 1994.

ADV PRIOR: Yes sorry, you seem to have missed the question.  The question is simply, did you ever make enquiries from any of the leadership who you now confirm came to see you in prison, whether that in fact was the policy at the time, to take the struggle into the  white areas and to attack white target?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Do you mean while I was in prison?  I don't understand you.

ADV PRIOR: While you were in prison because up until that stage you had no contact, on your evidence, that you had contact with either leadership of the PAC or of the high command of APLA.  You were simply acting on what Umzala or Power had told you in Umtata?

ANDILE SHICEKA: When they came to me we never discussed anything, they only helped me with the application.

ADV PRIOR: Were you aware - sorry, did you attend the conference of the PAC at Umtata during December of 1993?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I didn't.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree then, that attacking white civilians was a departure from the normal targets that had been attacked by APLA in the past?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I will not be in a position to comment on that point because the people who took decisions were the seniors.  We as foot soldiers, we had to carry out orders.