Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR DA SILVA: It stands to reason, he also thought he was going to be arrested, and that is why he started firing at the Defence Force vehicle, is that not so?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I don't know why he fired at the military vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: But he must have had a similar fear that you had, he thought he was going to be arrested, that is why he fired?  Do you agree with that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I don't want to agree, what I can say is that I don't know.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, but you say he fired more than once, you were standing next to him?  Is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is true.

MR DA SILVA: After you crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is it correct that between kwaMadala hostel and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, on the eastern side of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard there is a marsh, do you know that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know that.

MR DA SILVA: There was an affidavit handed in, it is Exhibit L earlier in this enquiry, and it is in fact two affidavits by Security personnel of ISCOR, if I remember correctly their affidavit is that they arrested a person whose legs were wet up until the knees.  Is that possible because you crossed this marsh that you would have got wet in crossing the marsh?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, where we crossed on our way from Boipatong, there is a footpath, there were no water.

MR DA SILVA: How did you enter kwaMadala hostel?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: On our return from Boipatong, we passed the ISCOR place surrounded by the trees, and then we moved on the other side of the bridge towards kwaMadala hostel.

MR DA SILVA: Weren't there people hiding in the marsh from the Defence Force vehicles?  Are you aware of that, was there any person which formed part of your group, that were hiding in the marsh?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, I heard about that in court, I don't know.

MR DA SILVA: Is it not correct that part of the group entered kwaMadala through a hole in the fence in kwaMadala, do you know about that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: The first time I heard about that, was in court.  What I remember is that we returned, using the same way that we used when we went to Boipatong.
	The first time I heard about people who damaged the fence, I heard about it in court for the first time.  I don't know.

MR DA SILVA: So did you not use this hole in the fence to enter kwaMadala?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, we did not use the fence.

MR DA SILVA: You say you put the TV down because you were scared of being arrested by the Defence Force vehicles.  Did they normally arrest people, what was your experience?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Since during the times of the riots in the township, they used to arrest people.

MR DA SILVA: So you were expecting them to arrest you, you weren't expecting them to cooperate with you, is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: If they had been cooperating with you, you would have carried the TV over the street and you wouldn't have been scared of them, do you agree with that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: I want you to think carefully back, my information is that there was one Defence Force vehicle on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  Is it possible that you are making a mistake, that you only saw one vehicle?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No, it is not a mistake, I saw three vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: Why don't you make mention of the vehicles in your affidavit?  You made an affidavit describing the attack and you don't mention them in your affidavit?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I don't know why it doesn't appear there, but I told my lawyer that I took a TV and I left it on the open veld and the reason why I left it there.

MR DA SILVA: So you are saying, you consulted with your lawyer and your lawyer made a mistake?  Is that what you are saying?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: And you also told him you saw three vehicles?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: That is an important aspect that is not in your affidavit?  Can you give an explanation why that is left out?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I cannot explain why it does not appear on my affidavit.

MR DA SILVA: I put it to you that you are mistaken, and that all you saw was a single solitary buffel on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I disagree with you.

MR DA SILVA: And did you see this buffel, what it was doing before you crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I don't know what is a buffalo.

MR DA SILVA: Okay, let's call it a suitcase.  Did you see what the suitcase was doing, before it crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: The first time that I saw this suitcase, it was moving from Cape Gate along the road, towards Vanderbijlpark.  It was moving.

MR DA SILVA: And then it must have turned left in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard because you explained that you saw it in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  Do I understand your evidence to be that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: The first time that I saw this vehicle, it was next to the firm and the garage and then it turned left towards Vanderbijlpark.
	They reduced their speed and then they ended up stopping and that is when we crossed the road.

MR DA SILVA: In what direction was the headlights of this vehicle looking, was it in the direction of the group or was it away from the group?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were facing towards Vanderbijlpark.  They were not facing at us.

MR DA SILVA: So they turned around?  Is that what you are saying, they were looking away from the group, at Vanderbijlpark, towards Vanderbijlpark?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were not going to Vanderbijlpark, they were just facing towards Vanderbijlpark.

MR DA SILVA: Were they ever facing in your direction, in the direction of the group?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Let me put it this way, only one of them faced in our direction because it was turning around, so the others just reversed.

MR DA SILVA: At what stage was this one, that was facing in your direction, was this while you were crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that what you are saying?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: And where were the other two that were reversing?  The answer hasn't been interpreted to me Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: He wants to know whether you mean when they were crossing the road?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you repeat the answer?  Mr Interpreter, is there a problem there?

INTERPRETER: The applicant was asking a question whether does he want to know when we were crossing the road, when these two cars were reversing or not?  He is asking the legal representative.

MR LAX: The question is, what were the other two vehicles doing while you were crossing the road?

CHAIRPERSON: You referred to the two that were reversing?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct Mr Chairman, I want to know where were these two vehicles that were reversing, while the applicant was crossing the road?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were at the back, because they were reversing while we were crossing the road, they were next to the robots.

MR DA SILVA: Will you please look at a photograph of the scene, it has been handed in as Exhibit M1.   Do you have the phonograph in front of you?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: Do you see there is a road that runs across the photograph, approximately just above point (d) on the left hand side, to point (m) on the right hand side, do you see that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: If you look along that road, you will see at the top of the page, there is a point marked (h), that indicates a foot bridge on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you see that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: Right, is that where the group crossed from Boipatong into kwaMadala?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.