Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MR SWANEPOEL: Now when you threw the petrol bomb to Sibongele's house, you said you knew she was inside, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes, I knew.

MR SWANEPOEL: Was anybody else inside the house?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I did not know as to whether there were other people in the house but we knew that Sibongele was in the house but we did not know as to whether there were other people in the house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you look yourself?  Did you look through the window before you threw the bomb?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: How did you know only Sibongele was in the house or how did you know Sibongele was in the house, who told you?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: There were members of Inkatha who were drinking alcohol in the house therefore I knew that they would not entertain themselves in her house in her absence.

MR SWANEPOEL: So you knew that there were other people who you say were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party in the house?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: They would entertain themselves during the day and they left.  I did not know as whether all of them left the house but we had the belief that Sibongele was in the house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Who told you ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But if they've left early and you don't know when they've left, how would you know whether she's still there or whether she left with them?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: They were in the car, we were watching when the car left then we confirmed that he was not inside the car.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, you received orders to go and burn a house while you knew she was inside and you're applying for Amnesty for attempted murder.  Is that in respect of that offence of the house burning?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: So your instructions was to go and kill her by burning the house in which she was at that stage, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now did you hear whether you succeeded or not?  Where did you hear she was still alive the first time?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I knew the following day that she survived.

MR SWANEPOEL: So would it be correct to say that approximately a month later when you got instructions to kidnap her, you were aware of the fact that your leadership wanted her dead?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: May you please repeat your question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Am I correct to say that when you got the instructions approximately a month later to go and kidnap her, you were aware of the fact that your leadership wanted her dead.  In fact you already tried to kill her once?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes, yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now why do you tell the Commission that you were under the impression that you were to kidnap her to take her away for questioning?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: When we tried to inform her that she should go with us, she denied then therefore we had to kidnap her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but how did it come that you believed that she was to be taken away for kidnapping - for questioning and not to be shot?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Because he had claimed that he was a member of the ANC and she was lying.

MR SWANEPOEL: What was the accusation against Sibongele?  Why did you have to kill her when you threw the petrol bomb at her house?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: It's because members of the IFP were burning members of the ANC in the community therefore we had to retaliate by burning an IFP members house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Wasn't it general knowledge amongst both you and your comrades, the members of the group that were instructed to kidnap Sibongele that she was a person whom your leadership wanted to be dead?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: May you please repeat your question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Wasn't it common knowledge amongst you and your comrades that your leadership wanted Sibongele dead when you went to kidnap her?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Do you say it was common knowledge that our leadership wanted Sibongele to be killed when we kidnapped her?

MR SWANEPOEL: I'm asking you.

ADV DE JAGER: Listen could you kindly listen now.  She was regarded as an enemy of the ANC is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So you received orders to act against her?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And the first order was to burn her house?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And if she's inside the house she should be killed with the burning, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you knew that this person being seen as an enemy should be killed at one stage or another?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: At the time when we were throwing the petrol bombs to her house, we wanted to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and therefore at the time you kidnapped her you knew that the ANC wanted her dead, not so?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: At the time when we kidnapped her I knew that she was going to be interrogated about her claim that she's a supporter of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew they wanted to kill her a month before already?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes, at that time I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not an issue of a question that you only thought they want to question her, you knew in all likelihood she was going to be killed?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I knew that there was that possibility for her to be killed.

MR SWANEPOEL: And further, was it not for the fact that you did not carry a gun that day, you would have been present at the attack on her, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes I would take part.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now just one point that came up now.  How did you know she was going to claim to be an ANC supporter?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you misunderstand Mr Swanepoel.  The day of the kidnapping, somehow she had already made that assertion and she was going to be questioned about this assertion.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman.  I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

MS PATEL: When you received your orders, can you tell us exactly what Meneer had said to you?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: You mean about the order for assault or for the kidnapping?  It was at night in 1993, as I've explained that I was with Jango and Mdmase and Mafrica.  We arrived at her place ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Never mind about that, Ms Patel will probably ask you about that just now.  What did Meneer say must happen?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: He instructed us to go and burn that house, that's what he said to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say whether Sibongele must die or not?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, that's what we're asking, the full instruction.

MS PATEL: And regarding the ...(intervention)

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: He instructed us that we should throw petrol bombs in that house so that she should be burnt together with her house because as supporters of the IFP we were burning the houses.

MS PATEL: Did he explain that that is why you were to go and burn her house and kill her if possible?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he give you the name of the person whose house you should go and burn and who should be killed with the burning?  Did he mention any name?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: He told us that we should go at Sibongele's house.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he specifically say that you should go to Sibongele's house?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you knew whose house it was?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes as he has mentioned the name and again the house number I knew.

ADV DE JAGER: So before you acted you knew her name and before you kidnapped her you knew her name, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes but I did not know the identity of Sibongele, I only knew the name.

ADV DE JAGER: So when you filled in this form you knew her name?