Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR DUKADA: At this point we are dealing here with a student activist, a man who had a high profile throughout Transkei, a man who was known in his own place, a man who was close to a family which was in and out of detention, that is the Ntsebeza family.  Was there any need for informers or askaris to go and identify Batandwa when simply the police at Xala would have just driven a van and pick up Ndondo and arrest him?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought there was something in the statement that indicates that Shosha had to identify the deceased as having been the person with whom he underwent training in Lesotho?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman the point I'm developing is that Batandwa was well known in Transkei as a whole and as the policemen whom they found at Xala was easy for him to say that the gentleman had just past.  The question I'm asking Mr Chairman, was there any need for identification of Ndondo when he was a public figure in Transkei?

CHAIRPERSON: Identification for what purpose?  For the purposes of an arrest or for the purposes of identifying a person who underwent military training with Shosha at Lesotho?  What Shosha did?

MR DUKADA: Sorry, I don't know whether Mr Chairman here, with me the point I'm putting to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this going to take us?  The witness has said that insofar as he is concerned, there was no need to have the askaris.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairman, if you are satisfied with the point.  Now if you are travelling, I don't know whether you still have the picture from the Ntsebeza house where Batandwa was fetched to the police station or let me put it this way, to the spot where Batandwa was killed.  You have to pass the police station, do you agree with me?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And it is a distance of approximately half a kilometre to travel from the place where he was first, to the police station?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And if the purpose was to arrest Ndondo, why did you pass the police station?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is why I'm saying I was surprised when I saw the kombi turning away from the charge office instead of going towards it.

MR DUKADA: Did you ask anybody inside why was the kombi passing the police station?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not ask, instead Braam Moss said I must produce my ID.

MR DUKADA: You didn't find it necessary to ask?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I did not ask.

MR DUKADA: Where were you going?  Did you even ask where was the kombi proceeding to?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Are you saying when it was turning about, no I did not ask.

MR DUKADA: Not asking at any stage, the kombi was turning about.  I'm asking you, you were from Ndondo's house, you drove and past, for about half a kilometre, you past the police station and after you had past the police station, you didn't even know where the kombi was proceeding to?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not know.

MR DUKADA: Why did you not ask?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I'm saying, the kombi turned and I was then told I must produce, that I must indicate that I was a policeman.  I then did not ask any further questions.

MR DUKADA: But in your statement you say that the kombi past the police station and you became surprised.

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is that?  There are a number of statements.  Would that be the affidavit or the statement?  The affidavit, yes, very well.  Which one, the, yes.

MR DUKADA: Page 11 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR DUKADA: Paragraph 19, you say that, the second sentence,
"Up to that stage I thought that we are going to charge office but to my surprise the kombi was turned to the direction of Elliott and I was told by Moss to produce my ID."
Now, my question is, when the kombi took the direction of Elliott, why did you not ask where were you proceeding to?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not ask.

MR DUKADA: And you were just taking a ride in the kombi, not knowing which direction you were going to?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Firstly, when he entered the kombi Braam Moss had said, "let us take a ride", there's something he would like to discuss with him, that's why he agreed.

MR DUKADA: Now if you turn at Page 62 of the bundle.  The statement by Shabalala.  Shabalala there gives a detailed narrative, Page 62 Mr Chairman, he gives a detailed narrative.  The first date he mentioned in Paragraph 3, the 19th of September 1985 at about 1 o'clock he was with Moss and they were on duty at Ngobo.  The next date and is the 20th September 1985 where it was on Friday they were visiting a certain detainee, the detainee mentioned the names of certain people  whom he had trained with in Lesotho and the last paragraph of that statement Shabalala says that after confronting the informer, that is this Shosha apparently.
	There were names of certain gentlemen who were disclosed to him as trained ANC members in Lesotho then he goes on to say, that is the last sentence,
"We conveyed this information to Brigadier de Mooi who instructed us to arrest Toby ...[inaudible] and Batandwa Ndondo."
Do you get that?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, if I might just add at this point, this statement that my learned colleague is reading from with regard to Mr Shabalala, Mr Shabalala never signed and denies ever having made, just for the Record.  So I don't, I just wanted to inform the Committee of that.  It would come out of his evidence and in fact if the Committee refers to the statement that was made by Mr Shabalala to the Attorney General's special investigative team, he specifically, on Page, I think it is 79 of the bundle, towards the end, I don't have the reference.

CHAIRPERSON: That begins at Page 71?  Is that the one?

MR KNIGHT: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this is the statement of the arresting officer, at Page 66 which goes all the way to.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman it's Page 78, right at the top of the page.  That is the paginated 78.  Where he says, " I deny that this A17 was done by me and I have no knowledge of the content thereof."  And it continues Mr Chairman.  I just wanted to.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DUKADA: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date of this statement?  The one that, this is the one that is in Afrikaans right?  When was that made?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, at Piet Retief on the 24th April 1997 before Inspector Jordaan who is with the Attorney General special investigative unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Knight.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't know whether this was intended to stop me from referring the witness to the statement made by Shabalala or shall I proceed with my question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the point that is being made is that Shabalala didn't make a statement, that the document which appears here at Pages 62, all the way through 65 I think it is, is not a statement by Shabalala.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman I believe that I am entitled to pursue my questioning of the witness on this statement because I'm testing the credibility of what the witness is saying.  Shabalala, if he comes back, when he testified for amnesty he is free to say that he never made the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the problem is that that statement is not signed by Shabalala and we would now have the statement on behalf of.

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not on the mike.

MR DUKADA: I take your point Mr Chairman.  May I proceed?  Thank you.  Mr Dandala when you arrived at Ndondo's home you stated that it was only yourself who alighted from the kombi and talked to Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  I only found a slim person at the house.

MR DUKADA: What I'm saying is that you ultimately talked to Ndondo and he said he will be coming to join you?