Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NTSEBEZA: And what did they say?

MR NDIMA: They said okay go to Athlone and we went there.  Even at Athlone we asked the very same questions.  In Athlone we asked who is holding the independence, is it a White man or a Black man?
 Who must give an independence and they said it is a White person who must give an independence to a Black person.  I said how many White people were necklaced just because they are informers?  They said, no, there is no one, there is only one in Port Elizabeth.
 I said I am not asking about Port Elizabeth, I am asking about Cape Town and I asked them why don't you arrest this people, those who are necklacing the others, how many have you arrested, none, that was the answer.
 I made a plea to them that the caspers must leave and you will see whether there will be someone necklaced if I said no, and if there would be anyone dancing next to a dying person on fire.

MR NTSEBEZA: And what did they say?

MR NDIMA: They said in Athlone, okay, go to Cape Town in the offices there.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was it a police station?

MR NDIMA: Yes, it was the police station.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you went there?

MR NDIMA: Yes, when we arrived there, they said that person have fooled you because you are under the Athlone police station.  They must give you an answer.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that the police station in Cape Town?

MR NDIMA: Yes, it is in Cape Town and they must answer you because you are asking a valid question.  And we came back and when we arrived there, we told them that you are one who is fooling us, please tell us what we are asking from you, give us an answer.

MR NTSEBEZA: The policeman you were talking to, is he known to you?

MR NDIMA: No, I am sorry, we don't know him.

MR NTSEBEZA: He was a District Commander?

MR NDIMA: Yes, it was a District Commander in Athlone.

MR NTSEBEZA: And what did they say when you told them about what they told you in Cape Town?

MR NDIMA: He said to us we must come back tomorrow.  He will ask the other policemen and gather for a meeting.

MR NTSEBEZA: Didn't he ask you anything or mention Pretoria?

MR NDIMA: I am coming to that.

MR NTSEBEZA: I must not push you.

MR NDIMA: We went there the following day, there were many of them.  He said to us we must repeat what we have said yesterday.

MR NTSEBEZA: Oh, were these White people?

MR NDIMA: Yes, they were White.  I said I am making a plea, we would like the caspers to go out of our place so that we can solve our matter because this is our issue not yours.  They said it is okay, we will phone Pretoria and tell them that you are chasing the caspers away.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that what they were saying to you?

MR NDIMA: Yes, these White men said that to us.  They said we must come back again the following today, they are still going to phone Pretoria and they will wait for an answer.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you still with Ngxobongwana?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I was still with Ngxobongwana.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you with him, was he accompanying you during the meetings in the police station?

MR NDIMA: No, I was with Gobingca.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that Prince?

MR NDIMA: Yes, Prince.

MR NTSEBEZA: The reason you were with Gobingca because he knew how to speak English or Afrikaans?

MR NDIMA: Yes, because I can't speak English or Afrikaans.  When we arrived there the following day, they said there is a White person from Pretoria who is coming down to Cape Town, he is going to arrive soon.
 As we were still waiting there, we saw a White man, long White man, tall.  We saw them standing up and we also did as they were doing.  
 He greeted us and sat down and he asked some questions.  Are these the men, and they said yes.  Which one is Ndima?

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that in Athlone?

MR NDIMA: Yes.  Which one is Ndima, they pointed at me and he came and greeted me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Okay, let me ask you on your side was it you, Gobingca and (indistinct).  He came and greet and he sat down and he said Mr Ndima, I've been sent by Pretoria to come to you and he told his name, unfortunately because I am illiterate I can't remember.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was he in a senior position?

MR NDIMA: Yes, it seems as if he was a secretary. He was a Deputy Secretary in Pretoria.

MR NTSEBEZA: You may proceed.

MR NDIMA: He said I've been sent to come and listen to your complain, you said the caspers must leave the Crossroads area.  I asked him when did you arrive, he said I arrived yesterday.
 Where did you sleep?  I slept in a hotel.  When you came back, did you go to the mortuary, he said yes, I did.  And how many people did you see in there dead, burnt with fire?  He saw some people in bags.  How many White people were there, none?
 Were they Black, he said yes.  I said it is a shame.  Will you please ask this man is there anyone arrested because of the incident, please ask them.  They said no, there is no one arrested.
 Ask them why aren't they arresting people, they said they didn't catch anyone setting fire, they were just dancing.  Ask them why were they dancing while someone is dying.
 How many caspers did you send here, he said more than 10.  Why did they come here, they said to prevent the necklacing.  Are they preventing the necklacing, no.  Were they here to prevent necklacing from White people, he said no.
 I asked him to tell me why are these people being burnt, is it because they were informers?  Is it because these informers don't want independence?  He said they do want independence.
 If they do want independence, why are they being burnt?  He said I don't know.  That is why I said the caspers must leave our area, it is because people are dying and we would like to see if these caspers are not here, are people going to be set on fire if I am the ruler.

MR NTSEBEZA: So what did you think the solution was going to be?

MR NDIMA: Just hitting the person.  A person is given corporal punishment, I told this White man.

MR NTSEBEZA: So you told this White man they must give you a chance to punish this people corporally?

MR NDIMA: I said there is no more jiving that is going to take place over a dying person, we will punish anyone who is dancing over a dying person.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did this White man say?

MR NDIMA: He said well, no, I just came to hear that Mr Ndima.  So I asked him while these people who are dying, they also want freedom, now who is denying them the freedom, he said it is White people.
 I said how many that have been necklaced are White, I said why is it only people who are after freedom, he said I don't know.
 I said okay, you see, I can see that it is this Whites who are instructing people to necklace one another.  So I feel I should punish corporally those people who are necklacing others.

MR NTSEBEZA: So what did he say, what steps did he say he was going to take?  Did he say he would take it to Pretoria?

MR NDIMA: He said well Mr Ndima, I am going to report this to Pretoria and then I will hear their response.
 So I said to him you know, maybe there are five people who are going to die from necklacing today and indeed five people died that day.
 Indeed five people on that day, people died as I said to him.  Because when he came, he said, he shook my hand.  When you first met him in the morning, that is Thursday the next day and he said, well, how did you know five people were going to be burnt to death because the news on the radio said - I, those people are very quick.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did he say about Pretoria?

MR NDIMA: So he said okay, Pretoria says I must do as you are asking, I must accept your request.  Pretoria says I must give you a chance to make your own efforts to sort this problem out.
 So I said well, is that  what they said, and he said yes.  So I said you know, just ask these men - these men that you are asking me to go to, whether they have guns.

MR NTSEBEZA: You asked him?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I asked him, these men had guns.

MR NTSEBEZA: And what did he say?