Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was on a Saturday.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was the day before the attack he told you this?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was on a Friday before the Saturday, a week before.  It was on a Friday of the week before the week of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: So a week before you were told that this supermarket was owned by the Chairperson of the AWB?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And in what connection were you told this?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We were sitting down discussing the issues of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did the issues of the organisation cover the ownership of the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He associated this statement together with the investigations he made.

CHAIRPERSON: What investigations?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Those investigations were in regard to the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: His reconnaissance with a view to attacking the supermarket, were those the investigations?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, it was the information he gathered, that the AWB used to frequent the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: I still don't see why you should be discussing this supermarket with him, that the AWB frequented it.  You've told me it was in connection with the investigation he made about the supermarket, what investigation did he make?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: About the AWB who used to frequent the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: What investigation did he make?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was in regard to the movement of the people who used to frequent the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this on the Friday?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was the Friday of the week before, the week of the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: When on the Friday?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was around 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: In the morning or the evening?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: In the morning Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So at 11a.m. on the Friday morning before the attack, a week before, he told you about the investigations he had done at the supermarket, about the people frequenting it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did he then discuss with you that the supermarket would be a target?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No.

MR MALAN: Did he tell you that it was a possible target?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, he did not.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us - can you then try to explain to us what he discussed with you, why did he talk about the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was talking about the AWB who used to frequent this place.

CHAIRPERSON: But why should he bother to talk about the AWB frequenting a supermarket if it was of no interest to you?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I knew that we were fighting these people.

MR MALAN: Did you know that the AWB was also fighting the government, that they were also planting bombs?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They were not fighting the apartheid government, they were fighting the Africans.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can I take you to page 3 of your application?
	Mr Chairperson, it's under paragraph 10, 10(d), page 3.
	Do you have that Sir?  It is under the heading: "If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits", do you see that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: I just want to read that for you and ask you for your comment.
"Politically and militarily as one AWB members died and also one white policeman was killed"
Where did you get this information from?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I got it from the newspapers.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, since when were you a member of APLA and where were you trained?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I've never been a member of the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: No, no, I'm saying APLA.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I was trained inside the country in Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you join APLA?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I was a member of the task force.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, what will your comment be if I tell you that according to the police investigation, and at least a police investigating officer who is present here and if needs be he will come and testify, that you were never a member of APLA but you were only recruited by this gang or group because they needed your transportation and your vehicle?  What will your comment be to that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I dispute that at all because I'm a member of the, I'm an African.  I was trained with the members of the PAC to engage in the political struggle.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell the Committee, what was taken from the shop, was anything taken from the shop?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We took money.

MR STEENKAMP: Who took the money and how was it taken, was it taken in bags or what?  What happened to the money?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, it was in the bags in our pockets.

MR STEENKAMP: And who removed the money from the shop, did all of you do it or was there a specific individual tasked to do it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was taken by those who were inside the shop.

MR MALAN: You say the money was in your pockets, did you have money in your pockets?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: How do you know the money was in the pockets of others?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: According to the evidence given by Ngesi.

MR MALAN: I'm not talking evidence Mr Tshoane, we want you to talk about what you know.  We heard what Mr Ngesi said.  Did you know that money was put in his pocket?  Did you hear from his evidence now or did you know it before?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I heard from his evidence.

MR MALAN: Did you not know that before he gave evidence?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, I did not know before.

MR MALAN: So you didn't know that money was taken until you heard Mr Ngesi's evidence, is that what you're telling us?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it the first time here that you heard that money was taken, when Mr Ngesi gave evidence?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So they didn't tell you at the time, after you drove them away after the shooting, that money was taken?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: And you got no money from them for driving them there?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Not at all Sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You were tried for this offence weren't you?  You've been asked about what was said at the trial.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't evidence led about the money that was stolen at the trial?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how could you say a minute ago to my colleague here, that you heard about money here for the first time?  That was a lie wasn't it, you heard about it at the trial.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, even here.  I did not see money at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You weren't asked about seeing money, you were asked if you heard about money.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: But why did you tell my colleague here that you didn't here about it until you heard the evidence here.  He asked you several times to make it quite clear and you said you didn't know about the money before, you heard about the money here.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: This thing happened a long time ago, it's five years and I forget some of the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now suggesting that you forgot that you were charged with robbery and convicted of robbery which involved the stealing of R4 000, and that evidence was led about this at your trial?  Are you seriously suggesting to us that you forgot this?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: According to them I was charged with robbery although I did not take part in robbery.  We went there to take money which will help to enhance the struggle for liberation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you now say you know you went there to take money?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you've just a minute ago said you've forgotten about the money because it happened a long time ago.
	That is what he said, isn't it?