Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: My answer was this, Brigadier Damooi I never saw him. The person that I mentioned was Colonel Booi. I wouldn't mention Brigadier Damooi if I didn't meet him.

MR MATUWENI: I must leave that point. I am going to refer to the question of this underground security. Colonel Booi will deny that there was a formal unit known as underground security but there was a situation where a few of the security people would be allowed not to present themselves as police officers in order that they be not known by the general police force. But that it was not a special unit that was formally created. Would you agree with that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I disagree with him because in that unit he was our superior. I first said there are other people who can prove that. The people that I was working with.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matuweni is what you are putting to the witness that there was for want of a better word what one may describe as being an informal underground well, undercover group which operated on an undercover basis just like he described in his evidence but that it was not a formal structure?

MR MATUWENI: What I was putting to you is that he will not necessarily deny that you had acted in that capacity but that it was not a formal structure. Are you denying that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: If it was not a formal structure I won't know. But all I know is that there was an underground security unit.

MR MATUWENI: Did you get a letter of appointment formally appointing you to this unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I never received that.

MR MATUWENI: Colonel Booi will deny that he assisted you in any way in making or in trying to cover up anything. And that in fact you were formally charged.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I said he gave suggestions like the others were giving suggestions.

MR MATUWENI: Could you spare a moment? I put it to you that you are attempting to fit your application within the now present amnesty situation otherwise your act was purely criminal.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Please explain that to me Sir?

MR MATUWENI: I put it this way. That you are formally charged with murder. That is a criminal act. Isn't that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR MATUWENI: And the statement you made at the time in order to avoid that murder charge was that you were trying to prevent the deceased from escaping.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR MATUWENI: So I am putting it to you now that you are dragging in cover-ups in order to fit your application within the amnesty situation.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I disagree with that Sir if you put it that way.

MR MATUWENI: Thank you Mr Chairman. I have no further questions.

MR MATUWENI: .

CHAIRPERSON: Very well thank you. Mr Dilizo do you have any re-examination?

MR DILIZO: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes go ahead.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DILIZO

MR DILIZO: Mr Dandala during your cross-examination a number of issues were raised. Firstly you have stated under cross-examination that you were five members who were forming the underground unit. Do you remember?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I remember that Sir.

MR DILIZO: Was that unit of five members responsible for the entire Transkei then?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir. The entire Transkei.

MR DILIZO: You say you were therefore adequately sufficient to gather the underground information being five for the entire Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: We were not sufficient for the entire Transkei.

MR DILIZO: As you were five did you have any transport?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: We had only one car for the five of us. And even that car was not enough for the work to be performed in Transkei.

MR DILIZO: Would that perhaps affect your extent of becoming informed of the underground situation in Transkei or not?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Please repeat your question?

MR DILIZO: The fact that you were five for the entire Transkei with one transport would it have any bearing to the extent of you gathering sufficient information about the underground activities in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I have already said that we were only a few of us and we had only one transport. We were unable to get some of the information. We would get the information later because we were few and we didn't have transport.

MR DILIZO: Would you know how the information or the underground activity or political activity information would be brought to the attention of the politicians in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I wouldn't know that because we were not the only people in Transkei. There were also people from the Intelligence Services who would also bring some information to the government.

MR DILIZO: This intelligence you are talking about was it also a part of the security branch here in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes it was part of it because I am sure they were also gathering information and passed that information to their superiors.

MR DILIZO: Was it responsible to the security branch?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was not part of the security branch but they were doing the same job as the security branch.

MR DILIZO: That is?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say to pass the information to the authorities. It wouldn't only be the security branch to do that job. Even the intelligence services people from that branch would pass that information to the authorities.

MR DILIZO: And now this question of you, a Transkeian policeman accompanying the SA police coming into Transkei do you know what was the purpose for that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say the purpose was that when they come to work in Transkei they must not be known that they are coming from the Republic of South Africa. Therefore they were obliged to go to the offices in Transkei to get Transkeian police so that if there is a need to arrest some one sometimes the police from Transkei would go with those police from the Republic to go and arrest that person. Or the Transkeian police would arrest that person and hand him over to the Republican police.

MR DILIZO: In the event of the Transkeian police handing over the arrested person from the Transkei were you informed what would happen to that person who was handed over to the SAP?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No we wouldn't be told.

MR DILIZO: You were also questioned about - Mr Chairman I am referring to page 15 of the record paragraph 38 which reads as follows
"Could the operation which resulted in the killing of Batandwa was done at the instance and in the interest of the government of the then Republic of Transkei and I was acting in the cause and the scope of my employment of the department of police of the said government. The government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation."
What do you mean by this? Could you please explain this to us? What does that mean?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say maybe the authorities knew about this. Although we were not told about anything. In the sense that the State President himself uttered something about the death of Batandwa and the fact that when we arrived in Elliot we were congratulated. It shows that perhaps they met though we were not aware of that situation.

MR DILIZO: Let's talk about this congratulations by the Lieutenant at Barkley East. What was your impression out of that congratulation? What did you make out with regard to the attitude of that lieutenant concerning the death of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I could see that he was happy. And I also realised that by congratulating us that was not the end. It could happen that, that was the mood of the authorities. The government itself appreciated the death of the terrorist.

MR DILIZO: You say the impression that you gained out of that congratulation was for his personal interest on behalf of the security police or the government?