Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Chairperson these records must be kept.

CHAIRPERSON: At the moment do you know who would have custody of those documents?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge now but I think the Industrial Relations do have those records.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Ms Tanzer?

MS TANZER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did you attend meetings when the siren was sounded?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Sometimes.

MS TANZER: So you are aware of the concerns of the hostel residents or their complaints?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MS TANZER: Now I assume, can you just clarify that Iscor assigned your position as Housing Officer?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Please may the question be repeated?

MS TANZER: Did Iscor assign you the position as Housing Officer?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Were they aware of the fact or was it aware of the fact that many people residing at the hostel were not employed by Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes they knew that, I know that as well.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of all the dwellers and newcomers who would come to the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I used to know them as they come so that I can allocate accommodation but some of them on leaving would simply disappear.  Yes others would indicate that they were leaving.  I did say that I kept a record.

MS TANZER: Could a person join the hostel without your permission and just find himself a room?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No not at all.

MS TANZER: On the night of the 17th June did you see the men leave the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I did not see them.

MS TANZER: But if they left with the main gate wasn't that next to your room?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Let me explain, I was doing the day shift but then the post assignment - I'm sorry I understand more Afrikaans than English but then the post assignment suggested that I should be available 24 hours.

MS TANZER: You say that you assigned a room to Nosenga after the attack.  So when approximately did you allocate him this room, do you remember which month?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: If I am not mistaken after the attack or the first two weeks of July in 1992.

MS TANZER: How many people would you say were staying at the hostel at the time of the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: There were many refugees and there were many Iscorians as well who exceeded 300 in number.

MS TANZER: And you could remember each one by name and face?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Some of them yes, some of them are so ugly you cannot look at them twice.

MS TANZER: So what is so distinguishing about Nosenga that makes you remember exactly when he came and when you allocated him a room in the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Nosenga hurt me very much, he was still young then.  We heard about this Boipatong massacre, murdered, and he came to the hostel to say he had been sent to plant bombs inside the hostel having been sent by the ANC so that I am quite sure I can remember his face.

MS TANZER: When did he tell you this?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was after I had introduced him to his peers, the youth.

MS TANZER: So when you introduced him, he admitted that he was planted by the ANC to plant bombs, is that what you are saying?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Unfortunately he was not asked but he was yes, going to admit.

MS TANZER: Well how did it come out that such a confession would be may or such an admission would be made?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Only men stay at the hostel, I think I know that when a young boy sees men he understands that he has come to a very tough place and there is a place that is governed by principle and rules, people were taken care of in terms of food, water to bathe, some of them were still young and they had fled leaving their families behind.

MS TANZER: But if he came, admitting that he came with an assignment from the ANC why did you not kick him out the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Usually we don't kill people.  Sending a person away is wrong because it creates a problem between you and your creator.

MS TANZER: The man comes with full disclosure admitting to you his very reason why he's in the hostel and you accept him in the hostel without any problem.  You say he hurt you in fact when he comes and he's open to you and he's honest, he's telling you his reasons for being there.  Is that logical?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is not acceptable but he too divulged the truth because he found ultimately a place where he could speak out so that we could make him strong.

MS TANZER: You knew the police were investigating the Boipatong attack at that time, why would you allow a man like Mr Nosenga to come to the hostel, who admits that he is working for the ANC to plant bombs, obviously searching for information about the attack, on your version, why would you allow such a man to stay in your hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: We realised that he was a refugee and we concluded that he would not be safe if he would go back to his handlers and tell the truth.  We decided that we should keep him and keep him alive because had it not been otherwise he would not be here today.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that you are lying, you are protecting your co-applicants and perhaps other parties involved, that your answers regarding Mr Nosenga are nonsense and illogical and that Mr Nosenga's version of when he arrived at the hostel and his role at the hostel is the accurate and honest version that he will put and is putting to this Committee.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I would like to apologise very much, lady, I am not used to swearing and insults.  I am not happy about being made a fool here because we are here to ask for amnesty.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I propose to ask questions after the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, would it be correct to say that the nature of your work required that you be present in the hostel 24 hours a day?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That was according to my duty, if I had to go to work I had to report and do whatever I'd left unfinished when I came back.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think what counsel is putting to you is this that the nature of your work required that you'd be on duty for 24 hours and in fact that's what you say?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But the point is that you had to be in the hostel 24 hours a day, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So everything that happened in the hostel you would be aware of?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: It's also correct is it not Mr Mthembu that you had been employed by Iscor since 1971?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That was on the 15th October yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And for how long had you been staying in the Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: From the 19th October 1990 to date even though yes, I was arrested and locked up for eight months.

MR BERGER: And the position which you had put you in a very special position with regard to Iscor management, in other words you knew a lot of what was going on at Iscor in relation to Kwamadala Hostel, would that be right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now is it correct that you worked a lot with top management of Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many residents were there of Kwamadala Hostel in June of 1992?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: If I am not mistaken Mr Berger there were not less than 300.  I am talking about registered residents who had to pay for accommodation as employees of Iscor and we also had refugees apart from Iscor employees.