Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: When King Sabate ran away and crossed the border we heard that the houses were burnt.  I was in one of the areas where I was taken by the authorities.  There was an old lady who was 90 years old.  My wife had a heart attack, was hospitalised at Lady Frere.  During this period I was already at Cofimvaba.  Some of the people informed me that I was supposed to go to Cofimvaba.  That is where he found me.  Seven houses were burnt and the children were mostly affected by this incident.  So many kraals were burnt down.  Chief Bangilizwe's kraal was also burnt.  Loling Tebikwane's house was also burnt.  Dengele Tebikwane's  house was also burnt.  Bisiwe Kabalegoosha's house was also burnt.  Pampikile's place and also my place.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Those people that you mentioned are they people who are just next to you?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes.  If you say their houses were burnt, who was responsible for that?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: The Government sent the police to our houses and there were some people who were ordered to assist in the arson which took place.  You will hear who are the police who were responsible for the arson which I am talking about.   Lolie's wife became ill, Mrs Tebikwane and then she died.  Her husband wanted to transport her body so that she could be buried in the original place, but he was denied this respect.  We went to the lawyers because it was
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everybody's concern that the wife should be buried where she originally came from, but the Government and the lawyers were responsible for this funeral arrangement.
 In 1993 one of the 90 year olds that I talked about died and then she was buried in the ruins.  A tent was installed there and the Chief said because you, he was referring this to me, you joined the politics you are responsible for what has happened.  I was very angry because I was affected by what he was saying to say I was stupid in joining the politics.  I was just sorry because it was my mother's funeral so I could not do anything to retaliate for what he was saying to me.  
 One day my younger brother was sent to me and my younger brother was a member of the opposition.  They were against my group.  I was called and I reported that I will not be going there.  I refused to go where they said I must go.  I was promised that I would be released and then I said I should not be the only one to be released.  All of us who have been taken away should be sent back to where we come.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now, you are Joyi and the brother that you are talking about is Matanzima.  What do you say when you say you are the children of the same parents?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: If I can trace our family tree we are originating from Gubenuka and Ngubenuka reproduced Joyi and then thereafter it was Mswewo then Mandela and then later on it was Kunene and then Matanzima is also coming from the same tree because Mtirara is his great grandfather.  Matanzima is also originating from the same Mtirara family.

ADV NTSEBEZA: If then we want to summarise this could we say Mandela Dalunga, Joyi, Kunene, Nkobinoka, all are brothers?
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KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, they are children to Ngubenuka.  They are great grand children to Ngubenuka.

ADV NTSEBEZA: This persecution that you are talking about where there are people whose houses are destroyed and the forceful removal that had taken place amongst your family, when did this end?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: When Stella Sigcau took power I learnt that King Dumesa Gwadiso was going to be at Ngcobo and I knew that they were closely related to Stella Sigcau.  I said to him let us be released.  We would like to be freed, we would like to go back to our places of origin.  We also learnt that there was no Church anymore.  He said he was going to convey the message to the Government.  In 1987 we were freed.  We came back to our places of origin.  When we arrived here we said we want the Chief who is of royal blood, who is in exile, he would come back.

ADV NTSEBEZA: What did you find when you came back?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: We found ruin.  I knew that we should be prepared for the worst.  I had to stand up because there was a hailstorm.  There were no houses, there were ruins and the houses which were here were the houses which were not suitable for habitation.  There was somebody who felt sorry for me who offered me a house.  I refused and turned down the offer because I wanted the journalists, if they visit, they should find that I am in my place which was destroyed and then I stayed there.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you build any house?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: No, I did not because I knew that one day I will have a way and an opportunity to go back to my place.  So that is why I did not build a house where I was removed to.  When I got there we were sleeping in a tent.  It was
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just an open veld.  There is something that I forgot.  I lost my stock.  I lost six cattle and a horse.  Even today I do not know what happened to my stock.  It was a terrible situation.  What happened was beyond description.
 When I heard what the report was given by Chief Babinie yesterday reminded me of what happened to us because it was more or less the same thing.  I cannot understand why the people do not want to speak the truth because you cannot understand why people cannot enjoy to participate in what is going to be beneficial for everybody.  There are some people who like power.  They do not even care even if they are responsible to be supervising the people who are responsible for ablution blocks.

ADV NTSEBEZA: The documents that gave orders that your places should be demolished, when they were demolished in 1980.  Do you know who signed those documents?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: It was the President.  At the time it was George Matanzima who was the Prime Minister.  The State President, the two of them.  Chief Dalunga also counter-signed.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I see that you have a little paper there.

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, we have and this document.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Kakadikloshe has kept this for quite a long time.  You can see here there is a signature belonging to the President of the Transkei.  K D Matanzima has signed.  On the other side it is G M M Matanzima with that signature which is well known.  The contents of the order say a person of Mputi administrative in the district of Umtata.  Whereas I am satisfied that your presence in the Mputi administrative area or at any other place in the district of Umtata is not in the general public interest.  Whereas I
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deem it expedient in the general public  interest that you withdraw from the said district of Umtata.  Now, therefore, under the powers vested in me by Section 41(1) of the Public Security Act 30 of 1977, I order you Kalalegusa Bisiwe, upon service of this order on you, immediately to withdraw from the said area in the said district and to proceed to Kamata administrative area in the district of Sovimvaba and to no other place and there take up residence at a place to be pointed out to you by the Magistrate of the district of Sovimvaba and further I order you not at any time to leave the district of Cofimvaba without the written permission of the Commissioner of the Transkei police.  Given under my hand and the seal of the Republic of Transkei at Umtata on this seventh day of February 1985.  Signed on the left had side K D Matanzima, President.  On the right hand side G M M Matanzima, by order of the President in Council.  We can remember that all the people of Mputi location, they received these banishment orders so that they can know that you have been expelled from the area.

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, it is so.