Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Ms Msibi?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed to do so.

MS THABETE: Thank you.
	I just need clarification, are you Miss Msibi or Mrs Msibi?

CHAIRPERSON: She's Miss.

JOHANNA MSIBI: Ms Msibi, would it be correct or would it be incorrect for me to say that at the workplace after the strike there was a conflict between people who were perceived to be IFP and people who were perceived to be ANC?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, that's correct.

MS THABETE: Can you elaborate on your answer?  Is it correct for me to say so?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, that's correct.

MS THABETE: Is it also true that Fawu members used buses whilst Uwusa members used taxis?

JOHANNA MSIBI: That's correct.

MS THABETE: On the day in question, whereabouts were you seated in the bus?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I was standing at the back, not the real back seat but at the back of the bus.  I was standing there.

MS THABETE: Were you seated or were you standing?

JOHANNA MSIBI: ...(no audible reply)
When the bus went through you say you saw Mzobona Hadebe, was he the only there or did you see any other person or other people there?

CHAIRPERSON: She saw four.  Ms Thabete, the evidence was that there were four persons.  Her evidence was that there were four persons, including Hadebe.  That's her evidence.

MS THABETE: Do you know anybody else besides Mr Hadebe who was there?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I saw Mr Hadebe and I saw Sandi even though I didn't see him throwing something but I saw Mr Hadebe throwing something and also I saw Sandi.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Sandi, Ms Msibi, do you know the surname of Sandi?

JOHANNA MSIBI: He's the one sitting here in front of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Mr Sithomo?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, Mr Sithomo.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he standing there next to Hadebe?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, he was.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said that there were four people, is it true if ones says the two of the four people is Mr Sithomo and Mr Hadebe?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, it's true.

MS THABETE: I assume that you know, or it's been the evidence that you know Mr Hadebe from work, where do you know Mr Sithomo from?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I used to see him at work and also in the township.

MS THABETE: Thank you, no further questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Msibi, you say you know Mr Sithomo from the location and from work?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JOHANNA MSIBI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: How long have you been employed at the factory?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I know him because I used to see him in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this - for how long had you been in the employ of the factory when this incident occurred?

JOHANNA MSIBI: 13 years.

CHAIRPERSON: In what department were you employed?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Kitchen department which was called Department Number One.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did you usually see both Mr Sithomo and Mr Hadebe at work, was it during your tea break, lunch hour or was there an occasion when ...(intervention)

JOHANNA MSIBI: I would see him during lunchtime and even inside the firm as we were walking from area to the other, and also outside the firm and the township as well.  I know them.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you know Mr Hadebe as a colleague working at the same factory where you worked?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I joined the firm in 1981.  I don't know if he joined before me or after me but when I joined the firm as time went on I realised that he was one of my colleagues, but I cannot tell whether he came before me or after me.

CHAIRPERSON: The incident occurred in September of 1992, would you say you had known Mr Hadebe for a few months prior to that incident?  Would you say you had known him for a year or for more than a year?  Can you just give us an approximation.

JOHANNA MSIBI: For years.  I can say maybe 13 years because I was in that firm for 13 years and I think I've known him since I've joined the firm.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Sithomo, for how long had you known him as a colleague working at Escort Bacon Factory?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Him as well I think I've known for quite a while, I think years.  I don't know whether he came before me or after me but I've known him for years as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it also be more than three years?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I think it's  far more than three years.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say it's far much more, approximately what would you estimate the period?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I estimate it like 13 years because I'm not sure whether he came before me or after me, but I think it was 13 years.

CHAIRPERSON: Now apart from the working environment were you would interact, how would you be able to interact with either of them in the township?  The evidence that was led before us was that, at least by Mr Hadebe, there was little interaction ...(intervention)

JOHANNA MSIBI: We used to meet each other in the township.  They used to stay or live with the people who were staying in the township.  There wasn't a common except work where I can meet them, but we used to meet in the streets in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that Mr Hadebe stayed at the hostel, Ratanda Hostel?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the hostel dwellers well accepted by the inhabitants of Ratanda Location?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Before the violence the hostel dwellers used to go to the townships.

CHAIRPERSON: And when can you approximate the conflict to have commenced between the hostel dwellers and the inhabitants of the location?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I think it was on the 22nd of July, on the day when we went on strike.

CHAIRPERSON: That's when the conflict between the hostel dwellers and the community in Ratanda ...(intervention)

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I would say so, I would say the conflict started on the day when we went on strike because before that the hostel dwellers used to visit the location but then when we went on strike that's when the conflict started, or the violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that you know Mr Hadebe and Mr Sithomo so well that you can identify them probably even when they are not facing you?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

CHAIRPERSON: And you couldn't have probably been incorrect in your testimony when you say you actually saw Mr Hadebe throwing something at the bus that you were in?

JOHANNA MSIBI: No, I'm not making a mistake, I'm telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Ms Msibi?

MR LAX: No questions Chair, you've covered everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Ms Msibi?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chair, just one or two.
	Ms Msibi, did you know about the death of Mr Mgababa?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I heard about his death at work on that Monday, but I didn't hear about it in the township.  I only came to find out about it at work on Monday morning.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know who Mr Mgababa was?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I knew Mr Mgababa because he was also working with us.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know his political affiliation?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I knew that he was an Uwusa members.

ADV BOSMAN: Then just one more question, I'm a little unclear on this.  You made mention of a fire when the bus passed, what time of the day was it?

JOHANNA MSIBI: It was half past five and I hold my watch.  It was half past five.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you possibly tell us why there was a fire, was it dark or ...?  If you don't know ...(intervention)

JOHANNA MSIBI: I don't know why they had a fire there but there was a fire.

ADV BOSMAN: And was it dark or was it still fairly light that time? - I don't know the area.

JOHANNA MSIBI: No, there was light, there was no darkness,  there was a clear light.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.