Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He tried to hide himself, he was not on the bed, he tried to cover himself with the sheets.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume he wasn't sleepwalking?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, when he saw us ...

CHAIRPERSON: Then he was awake when he was shot?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So why do we struggle to get a simple answer like that?  Carry on Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Lukhele, just to clarify this issue, I clearly remember you saying that when the shooting started, Obed was still asleep in his bed.

MR PATEL: That is not my recollection Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Let's start then, when you got to the ward, you already said that the shooting started very shortly after entering the ward, and shortly after you identified Obed, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct but I didn't say he was shot laying on the bed.

MR HATTINGH: When you entered the ward and you identified Obed, was he then asleep on your entering the ward?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now when you identified him, he was still asleep.  How far away from him were you when you identified him while he was still asleep?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Do you mean at the time when he was still asleep, could you please rephrase your question?

MR HATTINGH: You said that you identified him in the ward while he was still asleep.  The question is, how far away from Obed were you when you identified him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I think he was the distance between you and I.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Khaba then approach Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: At what stage did Obed awake?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, is it in dispute that this witness and Khaba killed Obed?

MR HATTINGH: No Mr Chairman, it is not in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what is all the details for?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if for anything, I think the victims or the families of the victims are entitled to full disclosure, if anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me tell you about this full disclosure.  Full disclosure is not nitpicking, but substantial disclosure.  I don't know if the family or victims or next of kin of the deceased wants to know if he was under the bed or on the side of the bed or in which number ward he was, or how far this witness was from the deceased when he was shot.
	The fact of the matter is that these two people assassinated him in the ward.  Isn't that it?  Carry on.

MR HATTINGH: I am going to leave this subject, all that I perhaps want to know is it would appear that Obed was killed while he was still asleep, it would appear that from short range he received two gunshot wounds to the head.  Was he in fact asleep at the time when Khaba started to shoot at him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Was that question directed to me, do I need to answer or was it just a comment?  I did explain that Obed was shot not in a laying position, but he was already getting off from his bed, trying to flee or take cover.

MR HATTINGH: All that I would like then to clarify is at what stage did he wake up then because he was still asleep when you entered the ward?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He was in a laying position, but he was not asleep, so he saw us when we got into the ward, and he tried to get out of bed.

MR HATTINGH: Did you speak to him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR HATTINGH: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions to this witness.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, what is your position?

MR BLACK: As indicated, I need to take instructions before I put anything to this witness from Mr Khaba.  I don't think it will be very long.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see how ten minutes does.

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
LIVINGSTONE M. LUKHELE: (still under oath)

MR BLACK: ... take further instructions.  Mr Lukhele,  I just want to clear something up from the beginning.
	You mentioned that you received an order from Mzwandile Gushu, he instructed your SDU and the order which you got was to effectively stabilise the situation or deal with any trouble relating to the Black Cats.
	It was without going into the exact words, it was by way of a general order an instruction given to you to ensure that peace gets restored in that community?  Is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: When this general order was given to you and your SDU, was Khaba, Mr Bongani Khaba present?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: And do you know of any specific order being given by Mr Gushu that specifically Mr Obed Nhlabathi must be killed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The order that we received was general, it was quite wide and we used to talk with Mr Gushu about these people.

MR BLACK: But do you know of any specific order ever being given by Mr Gushu that a specific person named Obed Nhlabathi must be killed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No there wasn't.

MR BLACK: Okay.  If I may just proceed to the matter relating to your evidence concerning the murder of Mr Bhe Malinga in October of 1993.  I have had the opportunity of taking instructions from Mr Khaba and he confirms that he was in fact a member of the SDU of which you were part of and that he did on occasions accompany you, but my instructions are that on this particular occasion relating to Bhe Malinga he didn't take part in the incident or attack as you have described on Bhe Malinga.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Bongani did not take any part on the killing of Bhe.

MR BLACK: But he says, my instructions are further that on that particular incident, he was not there, he wasn't with you people at that time.  Is it possible that you could be mistaken?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, it is possible because I spent most of my time with him, about ninety nine percent of my time.

MR BLACK: Is it possible, is his instructions, could that possibly be correct that on that particular occasion, he was not with you?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is highly possible because I explained to Mr Hattingh that when he requested me to count or give him a list of the people who were within the SDU, so he was one of the people that I spent most of my time with, so it is possible that I made a mistaken when I included him.

MR BLACK: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Black, just to ensure that I follow you.  When you say the incident, what are you talking about, are you talking about the disco incident?

MR BLACK: No, I am talking about this implication of the murder of Mr Bhe Malinga where - in which this applicant did mention Mr Khaba.  Thank you.  I have no further questions, thank you.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, any re-examination?

MR PATEL: No Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

ADV BOSMAN: You spoke of a Mr Basil Dhlamini who was also with you.  If I remember correctly at the time of the incident where the shooting at the Police, what has happened to Mr Dhlamini?  What has become of him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Mr Dhlamini was killed on the very same day by the Police.

ADV BOSMAN: I see.  And there is just something I don't understand and that is in relation to Bhe Malinga and Obed.  Perhaps my notes are wrong, you must assist me here.
	I've got it here that you said that Obed was problematic to the community, it had already been discussed that he should be eliminated and Bhe Malinga was also discussed.
	This was before the hospital incident.  Have I got it wrong or can you just clarify it?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The person that was referred to or discussed was Obed, but Bhe Malinga fell under the general order that the Police were enemies.

ADV BOSMAN: Don't you remember having said that Malinga was also discussed, don't you remember that?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: There are two Malinga's, there is Bongani Malinga who was a member of the Black Cats as well as Bhe Malinga who was a Policeman.