Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I refer you to page 99 of Captain Hechter's set of applications.  May I call Captain Hechter?

HASSAN MALL: Yes please do.

JACQUES HECHTER: (sworn states)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, on page 101, Nature and Particulars.  Captain Hechter, before you give any evidence about this matter, would you please turn to page 18 of the application.  Captain, we've already heard evidence here relating to your problems with your memory, and there's one aspect which I would like you to read to the Committee, page 18, first paragraph, please.

JACQUES HECHTER: My memory is very bad and certain facts I can't recall at all. Certain events in this application I could only remember afterwards during consultation and I was told by a psychologist that that could be the effect of post-traumatic stress, and a report from a psychologist will be offered in testimony.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, we've seen and heard that some things you can remember in detail and others you can't remember at all and others you only have a vague recollection of, is that correct?

JACQUES HECHTER: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now bearing that in mind, could you go to page 101 and read that for the Committee?

JACQUES HECHTER: My memory is not good as far as this incident is concerned, I remember an incident where I fastened an activist to a telephone pole and he was blown up with a limpet mine so that it would look as if he had blown himself up by accident.  He was already dead when he was
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blown up. I can't remember how he died, he was already dead when he was blown up and I can't remember who else was present.  I can't remember where it took place. I may just mention that the exact place I can't recall but it was in Bophuthatswana district or area, to the North West of Pretoria, somewhere in that area, I can't remember the exact place, but it was in that area. I'm not a hundred percent certain, but I think that there was also a second activist who was eliminated in the same way. As far as this event is concerned, I'm more and more certain that there was a second activist who died in the same way but I can't recall a name or a specific place or date.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, the statement which you make here, that there was a second activist who was eliminated in the same way.  I want it to be understood in the correct context.

JACQUES HECHTER: It was on a different occasion, it had nothing to do with this particular event.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now was this activist blown up, these activists, were they blown up by limpet mines or were they dead before they were blown up?

JACQUES HECHTER: They were already dead when they were blown up.  Blowing up was only done to conceal their identity.

ADV DU PLESSIS: So the reference in the fourth paragraph, the reference is made to eliminated in the same way, that is not entirely correct?

JACQUES HECHTER: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Because they were not eliminated by means of the blowing up?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes.  They were killed beforehand and I then blew them up with a limpet mine so that their identities
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could not be ascertained, at that stage many of the activists left the country voluntarily for training abroad and their family members didn't always know that they were about to leave the country, and in this way it was also not possible for their family members to know where their loved ones were.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, could you read the fourth paragraph?

JACQUES HECHTER: The Name and Place where, that is unknown, as I've already explained.  I know it was in Bophuthatswana somewhere.  If it is put to me that there was no such an incident, I will not be able to dispute that.  It is only a vague recollection.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That's the second case?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes. I don't want to sound insensitive because I can't furnish you with the details but I simply can't remember anything except what I have already stated in my application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, during, and I'm now going to ask you a general question which will probably be relevant to other applications as well, from October to now, relating to these applications now before the Committee ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: October last year?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes Mr Chairman.  October last year, when you appeared here and these applications were drafted, relating to these applications before the Committee, have you had conversations with other people who were implicated in the applications?

JACQUES HECHTER: Continuously yes.  I was continuously having talks with my fellow applicants.
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ADV DU PLESSIS: And could you remember certain things after you were told them by your fellow applicants?

JACQUES HECHTER: Some things became clearer to me.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And in each application where you have a problem with your memory and where you have now received such information, have you testified additionally?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is this an incident where you did receive further information?

JACQUES HECHTER: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I know this will be speculation Captain Hechter, but your action vis a vis this activist, could you tell the Committee, you testified that they were already dead, do you know how they died?

JACQUES HECHTER: Unfortunately not at this stage.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And if we accept that there is a possibility that you killed them, can we accept such a possibility?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes, I would have killed them personally.

ADV DU PLESSIS: If that is the case, for what reason would you have acted against these activists?

JACQUES HECHTER: I've already said previously and testified that only activists who were very active and who were high profile activists and who became a problem for us, who were identified by means of source reports, more than one source report, they were identified as activists and it would have been better for the Branch to have them eliminated. I would certainly not just have picked somebody up on the streets and eliminated him, it would have been somebody who would have been a problem for the branch.  A high profile political activist.  That was the kind of person I would
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have eliminated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Would this person have been involved in the politics of the liberation movements?

JACQUES HECHTER: At that stage definitely, he would have been very active, in most cases Mamelodi, Soshanguve, Attridgeville, he would have been active in those areas and he would have been a main figure in the boycotts, assaults, arson, by boycotts I mean school boycotts, bus boycotts, transport boycotts, consumer boycotts.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And would you have acted against people who weren't politically active in the liberation movements and their activities?

JACQUES HECHTER: If he was only active, I wouldn't have acted against him, he had to be really prominent and reports must have indicated that he was involved in acts of terror, whether burning down of police homes or throwing of hand grenades, etc.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now the Political Objectives and Motivation you'll find on page 103 up and including page 108, the Specific Background, page 108 to 109, I want you to please read the last paragraph.

JACQUES HECHTER: The context in which it took place was against the background of an emergency.

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, the next page 109, the last paragraph.