Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Weren't you angry that you didn't get your R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I was angry to do a task and not get paid afterwards.

MR SEMENYA: ... a serious complaint to you that you had worked, now you are not even paid?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I was troubled very much that I carried a mission on and I was not paid for it.

MR SEMENYA: ... prepared to talk to the Judge?  You are still angry, am I right that your R20 000-00 is missing?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: When I was in the court of law, I was convicted by Mbatha's statement that he submitted to the police.  I had a State Attorney.

MR SEMENYA: When you were in front of the Magistrate, you were still angry that you did not receive your R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Even in front of the Magistrate, I never said much.  I was not that much infuriated.

MR SEMENYA: ... that you didn't receive your R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was angry but that was my business, and it was within me but now I was being convicted for murder.

MR SEMENYA: Then why don't you tell the Magistrate - do you want me to finish my question first?

CHAIRPERSON: Could the witness just wait for the completion of the question, thank you.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am sorry, I am so fast.

CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Why don't you tell the Magistrate at that moment you are angry you didn't get your R20 000-00 that you were promised this money by Mrs Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The police were insisting on the robbery statement, I did not say anything in front of the Magistrate.

MR SEMENYA: Let me read you your cousin brother's statement.  Do you know him quite well?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, not very well.

MR SEMENYA: Do you find him honest?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I don't take him as an honest person.  Only my siblings will I take them to be honest.

MR SEMENYA: Do you find your cousin brother honest, is my simple question?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I will not say that because there is not anyone who is honest to me, even my girlfriend.  I don't take my girlfriend to be honest to me.

MR SEMENYA: ... who you consider to be honest?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I wouldn't trust people of this world.  As I said I don't trust anyone or consider any other people to be honest.

MR SEMENYA: Nobody  to you on this planet is honest?  Or not even you is honest?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am honest to myself, not with others.  I take myself to be honest.

MR SEMENYA: Your cousin brother says in one of the statements I am indeed responsible for murdering Dr Asvat.  It was under the circumstances described above and I am sincerely sorry and regret what I did.  But I believed I was doing it for the cause and to help people such as Mrs Mandela and our leaders to change the political order in South Africa.
 Does this sound like him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: You are referring to Mbatha?

MR SEMENYA: Did he display this type of political convictions whilst you knew him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The statement that was in the  court of law, was with regard to the robbery.

MR SEMENYA: Is that your final answer to my question then?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recall you were visited by an Attorney Brian Currin together with another Attorney Jody Collapin in prison?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I will like to know who is that.  No, I have never had such a visit.

MR SEMENYA: And they were at that time going throughout the country to help the prisoners with their amnesty applications in lieu of the amnesty that was granted before the TRC Act?  You refute that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Who ware those?

MR SEMENYA: Brian Currin and Jody  Collapin?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I did explain there that I did not know anything about Brian Currin.

MR SEMENYA: You were confronted by them that they had received an unsigned affidavit which suggests that your conduct may have been political, you told them no, you are not willing to apply for amnesty because that story is not true, you have not - to use your words - even met the lady.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I never met her.  I cannot claim I have met her when I did not.

MR SEMENYA: ... two Attorneys of the stature of Mr Brian Currin and Jody Collapin would decide to tell an untruth about this?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He doesn't know me.  Brian Currin does not even know me, I never even spoke to him.

MR SEMENYA: When were you a member of the UDF?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: In 1982 I was still young, I was still a young boy then.

MR SEMENYA: You were just born in 1969, and in 1982 you were a member of the UDF?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was not an official member as such, but I would be a follower of UDF.

MR SEMENYA: Were you a member of the UDF?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was not a full member as such, I did not even have a card as such.  But I was a follower of UDF.

MR SEMENYA: In your statement you say you know Maqina?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I know Maqina.

MR SEMENYA: You just say no?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was still thinking, there are many people, even my inmates there in prison.  You will have to explain to me which Maqina you are referring to.  Some of my inmates' names are Maqina, so I wouldn't know which one  you are talking about.

MR SEMENYA: In the statement you say the following "we then went to Diepkloof to see a person called Maqina at Diepkloof hostel."  Was he staying there, Maqina?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, he was not staying there.

MR SEMENYA: Mbatha I then spoke to Maqina, asking him to lend Mbatha a firearm as we were going to use it?  You deny this as well?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I deny that.

MR SEMENYA: Can I just ask you to identify the signature on this statement and tell us if it is yours.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: This is my signature.

MR SEMENYA: ... pending your signature on this document?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I signed after I submitted my statement.  I was told to sign there.  He told me to sign and I was so confused, in a state of confusion at that time.

MR SEMENYA: ... your confusion which is apparent, were you forced to make this statement or not?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is how the whole thing was done.  I was confused at the time because some things cropped up.   There was a journalist around and my name is all over the newspapers and that troubled me a great deal.  And he deceived me that he was coming from the TRC and yet he wasn't.

MR SEMENYA: How were you forced to sign the statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He said now that I have already written the statement, I shall sign.

MR SEMENYA: ... no, I don't want to sign?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The situation was just like that that I had to sign.

MR SEMENYA: What does that mean?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was in a state of confusion as to especially the way the things were happening.

MR SEMENYA: In the statement you go on and say but it did not say what we were going to do with it, Maqina then gave Mbatha a 9 mm Star firearm.  Did you see Maqina give ...

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

MR SEMENYA: It was a pistol.  We then left and went to our hostel.  We slept in the hostel on Thursday, is that also not correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, that is not correct.

MR SEMENYA: And in the statement you are making numerous references to Jerry Richardson.  You say now you did not know him at that time?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I will not lie about Jerry Richardson and claim I knew or I know Jerry Richardson.  The first time I met Jerry was in (indistinct), we were going to the hospital.  Not that I knew him.

MR SEMENYA: Did you discuss your case with Jerry Richardson.