Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I think I can say that whether you were ANC,whether you were a supporter or not, people died.   The actualtarget of the Three Million gang was the ANC but the didn't actuallydiscriminate against their victims.

<UNKNOWN>: : Right, I would like to move away from the politicalclimate.   Membership of the applicants in respect to the ANC,as far as that is concerned I'd like you to tell the Committeewhat your position was in the ANC at the time.

ANSWER: At that time I was the Deputy Chairperson ofthe local branch here in Kroonstad, the Chairperson was ReverendGozongo.   The applicants were members of the ANC Youth League.

<UNKNOWN>: : You were personally aware of the membershipof each of these persons?

ANSWER: Yes I was so aware, I was aware of the membershipof the applicants.

<UNKNOWN>: : In particular I would like you to tell us asfar as applicant Thulu, as far as his membership is concerned,was he an ordinary member or was he a leader?

ANSWER: Petrus Thulu Matshabe was not an ordinary member,he was a leader, a very respected leader in the Youth League andin the ANC circles and in the community as well.

<UNKNOWN>: : He told us about the so-called self-defenceunits which were created, was the ANC aware of the establishmentof these units?

ANSWER: I would like to explain it as follows.   Thedefence units were established by the community and the reasonwhy they were established was because of all the various attemptswhich had been made to protect the community from various attacks.  These attempts however, did not help, they were to no availand for that reason the youth and the residents decided to defendthemselves from these attacks.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you confirm that Mr Thulu was involved inthe establishment of these units?

ANSWER: Yes, yes Chairperson, Mr Thulu was the personwho got the self-defence units off the ground.d

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know of any meeting at which a decisionwas taken that the persons who were involved in the units hadto attack members of the Three Million gang and to kill them?

ANSWER: Such a meeting was never held, it was never decidedthat the self-defence units had to attack members of the ThreeMillion or kill them.   The purpose of the self-defence unitswas to protect the community from these attacks and not to becomeattackers themselves.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Bloem, evidence has been led here that,or let me put it this way, as far as the application of Petrusis concerned, I would like to for purposes of the record requestthat you tell us whether there is any relationship between yourselfand the applicant, family relationship?

ANSWER: Yes Chairperson, Roland Petrus his father, PhillipPetrus, is my cousin.   In other words Roland Petrus he's my cousinonce removed.

<UNKNOWN>: : The Bloem person who was killed allegedly atthe taxi rank at Kroonstad, he was allegedly killed by the ThreeMillion gang, what was your relationship with him, were you related?

ANSWER: Yes the person who was killed at the taxi rank was my cousin, Simon Bloem.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Bloem, I'll come back to this aspect, thisaspect of Roland Petrus, but now I'd like you to tell us brieflyabout what you did as a leader to try and avoid conflict in thecommunity and to try and combat the crime and violence.   I'llrefer you not to an example or an incident and then you must justelaborate on that.    This is an incident referred to by applicantTulu which happened at the church of Reverend Gozongo.   Do youknow about such an incident?

ANSWER: Yes I am aware of that incident.

<UNKNOWN>: : Very briefly tell us what happened there, whatwas the purpose of your meeting at the church and what happened?

ANSWER: Yes on that particular day I or rather Diwiticame to me and in respect of this conflict between himself anda member of the ANC Youth League I was involved in trying to makepeace between himself and Mr Daniel George.   Diwiti came to meand said that he wanted this thing to be resolved, he wanted totell the ANC Youth League's members what had happened and to sortit out.   I convened a meeting with Reverend Gozongo, with theThree Million and with the Youth League.   At this meeting we'djust started with the meeting when some of the Youth League memberssaid that they were not going to speak, they did not want to talkto a murderer such as Diwiti.   I tried, I pleaded with them,I told them that for the sake of peace in Kroonstad we simplyhad to talk and I noticed that the situation was becoming extremelytense and I said to Diwiti that we should rather move away fromthe church because I did not want to see any blood in a church.  Reverend Gozongo also spoke to these people and I got into mycar, Diwiti also got into my car, his sister Florence got intomy car and one other person, Stoffel, Stoffel Mofokeng also gotinto my car.  We drove out of the church yard, we drove to BrentPark.   When we arrived in Brent Park in front of my house...

<UNKNOWN>: : Just before you continue, why did you driveto Brent Park, do you mean that you went to Brent Park with Diwitior what was the purpose of this?

ANSWER: The purpose of why I drove away from the churchwith Diwiti in my car was that we could find a calmer situationand climate in which to talk to each other, I could see the situationwas extremely tense and I wanted there to be peace between thesetwo groups.   That is why I drove away with them.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now did you drive with both groups to BrentPark or with only one group?

ANSWER: I drove with one of the groups.

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words the Three Million group?

ANSWER: I wouldn't say the group I drove off with twopersons, Dwiti and his sister, those were the people in my car.

<UNKNOWN>: : Then what happened at your house?

ANSWER: We stood outside my house and we were talkingand then we noticed some kombis, two or three kombis driving inthe direction of my house.   Whistles were being blown in thesekombis.   I said to them let's rather leave this place otherwisethere will be a murder committed here in front of my house.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who is "they"?

ANSWER: I told Florence and Diwiti.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you then drive off with Diwiti?

ANSWER: Yes, Diwiti first said no I'm not going to runaway any longer from these people, I pleaded with him I said Diwitiplease let us leave, let us drive away here because I don't wantanybody to be killed right here in front of my house and he thenagreed and we drove away.

<UNKNOWN>: : You then took him to a safe place?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Let me just leave that aspect there for themoment and let me focus your attention onto the next aspect whichdeals with alleged attacks on ANC leaders at the time by the ThreeMillion gang.   You've already testified that you were a leader.  Can you tell us about any attacks on you personally by membersof the Three Million gang?

ANSWER: Chairperson, I will mention one such incident.

<UNKNOWN>: If you say you are going to mention one incidentdo you then mean that there were more?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : I wouldn't like you to go into the detail ofall these incidents, please just tell us how many incidents therewere in which you were attacked?

ANSWER: There were three attacks which I can recall inwhich they attempted to attack me.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were these attacks directed at you by membersof the Three Million gang?

ANSWER: Yes, yes and I'm now going to talk about oneincident in particular, just briefly.   I was inside the courtroomwith a friend of mine, Cecil Antoni and with my father, Mr Bloem.  The members of the Three Million gang swore at me, they threatenedme, they threatened to kill me in the presence of about 10 policemenwho laughed when they heard these threats and insults.   Thatwas the one incident, I won't go into it any deeper but I willnow mention an incident...

<UNKNOWN>: : As regards that incident, were you, was anythingdone physically speaking to actually carry out this threat?