Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, everyone - I think everyone was able to help him- or herself with a tracksuit.  Because I found the tracksuit lying down, then I had to wear it.

MR VALLY: So how often did you do this?   How often did you wear this tracksuit?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't remember the days.

MR VALLY: More than once?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: But it was more than once, yes.

MR VALLY: More than once you accompanied Mandela United Football Club on various journeys

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: On Mandela Football journeys, yes.

MR VALLY: Can you give us some of the details of which journeys you went on?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Like for instance the one which I'm talking about of the late Helen Joseph.

MR VALLY: Yes?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: And the other one it's when the boys were going to play in Nootgezicht.

MR VALLY: Yes?  Did you ever go and fetch some people to bring them to the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't remember that.

MR VALLY: So you only went to birthday parties and you went where else?  To play soccer?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: And funerals?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm trying to recall the funeral that I went to with her.   Oh, the funeral that I went with Mrs Mandela, it was my brother's funeral.

MR VALLY: Is that the only one?  Did you go to Dr Asvat's funeral?  In Lenasia.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't recall that, sir.

MR VALLY: Did you go in the bus driven by John Morgan one day in February?

MR VALLY: Did you go to a funeral at the end of January or early February?   Do you know where Lenasia is?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I know that.

MR VALLY: Do you know the coaster that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela owned?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I know it.

MR VALLY: Do you know the driver, Mr John Morgan?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, Mutu used to drive the bus.

MR VALLY: Do you remember Mr John Morgan driving you and the rest of the team in their uniforms to a funeral in Lenasia, in Lenz?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't remember the journey.

MR VALLY: Is it possible it happened?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: What I can say, I can say, yes, it is possible it happened, but I can't remember it.  I can't recall it.

MR VALLY: Is it true that Ms Liela Groenewald, our investigator, put to you a number of allegations?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't remember the allegations made but I only remember the thing that was told to me by Liela Groenewald concerning my brother.

MR VALLY: Did she put to you that it is stated in Katiza's Journey certain allegations regarding your brother, Sizwe Sithole?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't remember that.

MR VALLY: Did she then make this allegation purely in the air?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In fact, she came to me, we were not seated, but we were in motion when she told me the whole thing.

MR VALLY: You say you were in motion.  What do you mean?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In fact, we were moving.

MR VALLY: Moving where?  In a car, in a bus, in a truck?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, we were in motion like we are pedestrians, I can say.

MR VALLY: Mr Sithole, I put it to you that you are more involved and were more involved in Mandela United Football Club than you are claiming.  That you were arrested and you were present when Mr - at least on your own admission - Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono were held against their will at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.   What's your reaction to that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: My reaction is no.

MR VALLY: You just told me you saw them in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I've told you that I saw them in Mrs Mandela's house.

MR VALLY: And I put it to you that they said they were held there against their will.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm not sure of that.

MR VALLY: I'm telling you they said so.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I can hear it from you.

MR VALLY: And that you were an active member of Mandela United Football Club.  You went around on trips with them in the uniform.  Is that true?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I deny it because I can't even play football.

MR VALLY: No one asked you whether you can play football and no one asked whether Mandela United Football Club people play football.  The point is you accompanied them on trips.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That can happen but I was not a member.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that you are refusing to answer questions like you refused to give us a statement until today.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, because in fact I think whatever I'm saying here is the true reflection of what I know.

MR VALLY: I have no further questions.

UNKNOWN: Mr Sithole, are you aware of the fact that both Mr Thabiso Mono and Mr Gabriel Mekgwe have made statements which say that you in fact participated in the assault on them.  What do you have to say about that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: My response is no, I was not even in that yard during that day.

UNKNOWN: Why would they have a reason to lie about you and your involvement?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't speak on their behalf, but what I'm thinking can be the reason, it is due because I was arrested on Stompie's case.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but they are actually saying that you beat them, both of them.  So why would Stompie, the fact that you were arrested for Stompie's matter affect the fact that they would lie about you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: As I've said that I can't speak on their behalf.  That is my reason that maybe I'm giving to the Commission, that can be the reason for them to implicate me on their assault.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Sithole, can you remember, when did you return to South Africa?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: It was on the 18th February 1994.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  And I know that you answered this question, but I couldn't quite hear your answer, so forgive me if I ask you a question again.  And that is, when you came back, what work did you do and what work are you doing now today?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: When I came back I was recommended by MK because I went to exile to join MK.  I was recommended to National Peacekeeping Force in Cape Town.  And presently I'm employed as a security officer protecting Johannesburg International Airport.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  In your handwritten statement - this one - which you gave, I think, only today, you say that you were arrested and charged with the kidnapping of Stompie. Is that right?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I said I was arrested and charged with the case where Stompie died.  It was three charges, as I've just made mention.  Kidnapping, assault and murder.  I'm not exactly sure which of the one charge I was charged of.

DR BORAINE: I'm just reading from your statement.  I'm not putting any words.  I'm just saying you say
"It is true that I was arrested and charged with kidnapping of Stompie".
That's what it says in your statement.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In my statement that I gave to Mr Miller I told him he can just made mention what I said to him five minutes ago - it's thirty minutes ago.  I said to him I was charged with the case of Stompie, of which there were three charges there, kidnapping, assault and murder, of which even today I'm not sure which one was specifically for me.

DR BORAINE: So your statement is not entirely accurate.  But let me ask you, kidnapping, you know what kidnapping means, do you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In broad terms. I'm not sure of it.

DR BORAINE: Would you agree with me when I say that kidnapping is a very serious offence?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

DR BORAINE: Now have you ever considered applying for amnesty?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I didn't, sir.

DR BORAINE: You never thought about it.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.