Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think it is very difficult to separate because every incident you have to analyse all the factors, you can't separate the factors at any given stage because there were other marchers and some of the behaviour was similar to other marchers but there were other things which was not involved.  The information I had wasn't enough to shoot so I say we have to take the whole package in terms of how I saw it for me to come to that decision.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, I want to refer you to another passage of your evidence before the inquest court.  You were asked specifically then with reference to the time when you would start shooting, because you mentioned all the other factors and you said now people are approaching etc. then you were asked "At what stage" my lord - I refer to page 2738 from approximately line 6 - "At what stage do you start shooting now?"
	"That is the judgement you have to make at that given time"
	"But at what stage?"
	Your answer was: "That is the judgement you had to make at that given time."
	You were then asked: "But at what stage, tell me, do you start shooting then before they get to the front door or when they get to the front door?"
	And your reply is:  "When they start shoot, when your life starts becoming threatened, my lord."
	Do you read that Mr Kruser?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I read it.

MR PRETORIUS: Do you stand by that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct, I don't see any contradiction with that with my other answer.

MR PRETORIUS: So I then put it to you that the most important factor that one gathers out of all this is that when the marchers start shooting, when they attack you and your life is threatened, that is what we get out of all these passages?

CHAIRPERSON: The most important factor - there were other important factors as well.

MR PRETORIUS: What I mean, Mr Chairman, is that there may have been factors such as the reports such as information that he had but the crucial thing that caused him to give the order was the fact that he perceived that he was shot at or Shell House was shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] there were other factors that there was a surge forward towards Shell House - people surging towards Shell House, is that an important factor?

MR PRETORIUS: We do not accept that, we will get to that at a later stage but thank you.
	Mr Kruser then if you get back to the various passages, the final thing that convinced you, that is now the attack and that you've got to shoot, was the fact that shooting emanated from the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I stated earlier, I said it's the whole combination of all those factors that made me come to that decision, I cannot separate them.  If there was another incident where people just shot, I might have acted differently, I stand by my point of view that the combination of points I mentioned earlier, was the reason why I gave the order to shoot.

MR PRETORIUS: Let me just finally ask you and then I think it will settle the matter.  You still stand by the passages that I have quoted for you of your previous evidence?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, the shot that hit the window close to where you and the other ANC guards were stationed, as far as the time factor is concerned, did that shot struck the window when you heard the very first burst of gunfire?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That was my impression at that stage, yes.

MR PRETORIUS: In various pages that I can refer you to during your evidence at the inquest you take it as a fact that the very first burst of fire that was fired at that particular time, was automatic gunfire that emanated from the crowd and that this bullet struck your head or the shots immediately close to your head or in the vicinity of your head, in the shops - is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, that's my recollection of the events, however Mr Chairman, I also have read the ballistic evidence now subsequently which tells me that it happened differently but on that given day and subsequent to that day, that's how I saw it, that's my understanding of the events and that's my impression what happened on that day.

MR PRETORIUS: The important thing is that the ballistic evidence prove, Mr Kruser, is that the bullet that struck the shop was actually fired by Mr Eddie Khumalo, your guard which was positioned practically next to you with an AK47?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct, that is what the ballistics says.

MR PRETORIUS: It is therefore clear, Mr Kruser, that the very first person of automatic gunfire that was fired was not fired by the crowd, it did not emanate from the crowd but was fired by Mr Eddie Khumalo, the ANC guard standing practically next to you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There's not evidence to prove that.

MR PRETORIUS: Well Mr Kruser, you only testified about one burst of automatic gunfire at that stage and we know now that the bullet that struck the window came from Mr Eddie Khumalo so the only burst of gunfire at that stage would have been that of an automatic rifle, being an AK47 fired by Mr Eddie Khumalo?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, it's very difficult for me, I can only recollect what I understand to happen on that day.  We are dealing with seconds we're dealing with lots of firearms around us, we're dealing with a very hostile crowd surging forward, it's very difficult for me to accede to something I don't know, I can only recall what I saw on that day and at the same time I can accept the ballistic evidence put before me.  I can't change - that's what I saw on that day, it might not be correct, I'm human, but that's what I saw on that day and that's my understanding of what happened on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kruser, can you still remember how far Mr Khumalo was standing from you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: We were in the immediate proximity together, within a metre of each other.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Kruser, was Mr Khumalo in front of you or were you on the same line in such a way that you could see him and observe him at all material times prior to your order?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Khumalo was lying flat on the ground, I was standing back behind him, up with my - facing the crowd.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Pretorius.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you.
	Mr Kruser I want to read from you from page 2746 of the inquest court record, it reads as follows, it's at the bottom from approximately line twenty six.  I can just place you in position, this is immediately after the policeman ran back towards you according to your evidence and then ran away.  You were asked then:  "What was the first thing that then happened, the first thing you remember?"
	Your answer:  "Almost immediately by that time, just as they were about to leave shots rang out from the group."
	"Now, was it automatic fire or single shots?"
	Your answer:  "There was definitely automatic rifle."
It continues on page 2747 and you were asked then:

MR TIPP: Read in Mr Chairman, it's "fire" and not "rifle"

MR PRETORIUS: I beg your pardon.  Continued on the next page you were asked:  "Was it your impression at the time that those shots were aimed in your direction on the corner?"
Those shots referring to the automatic fire that's being debated at that stage.
	Your answer:  "My lord, one shot went into the window above me, that gave me the impression that they were aiming their fire at us."

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my recollection of the events, Mr Chair.

MR PRETORIUS: You refer there only to one burst of automatic fire and it's quite clear that from that burst of fire, a shot struck the window just above you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I also say there's a possibility the fire could have also been there.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that, just say it again?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I also say in the statement that there was other - there could have, possibility of fire could also have been there.

MR PRETORIUS: Which statement, Mr Kruser?