Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: People who were chosen to represent the youths and the chief also chose people who will represent him.

MR RICHARD: Were you one of the people chosen?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Who chose you, the chief or the youth?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The youths.

MR RICHARD: Now where was the sangoma living that you were planning to go and see?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He lived at Komatipoort.

MR RICHARD: And what was his name?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: His name was Sicoto Sinyama.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now from your statement at page 14, I understand that you and other representatives of the youth and representatives of the parents chosen by the chief went to Komatipoort.  Did you take anybody else with you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Can you please repeat?

MR RICHARD: When you went down to Komatipoort together with your colleagues from the youth and the people chosen by the chief did you take anyone else with you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No.

MR RICHARD: Now what did the man in Komatipoort say?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When we arrived there he threw his bones and he told us - he asked us what our complaints were and he wanted to know from us what is it that we suspected.  He told us that he could see that there is something that we suspect and he confirmed our suspicion.

MR RICHARD: Did he point to anyone?

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.  What do you mean if you say he confirmed your suspicion?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Because he had already thrown his bones.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?  What do you mean he confirmed your suspicions?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When I say that I mean because when we arrived there he threw down his bones and he told us what our suspicions were.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He told us about us about the deaths and who caused those deaths.

CHAIRPERSON: Without you telling him anything?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We did not tell you anything.

CHAIRPERSON: He just threw his bones and then he told you exactly what happened in your village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he also told you who caused this?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you who caused this?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He told us about a certain man called Skwakalala Msoma.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who is that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes, he was living with us.

CHAIRPERSON: So he told you about this man.  What did he tell you about this man?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He told us this man was the chief of the witches in our village.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did you mean when you said that he asked you when you got there, he asked you what your complaint was?  Is that what he asked you when you got there, what is your complaint?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes he did ask us about our complaint.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell him what your complaint was?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He actually told us about our complaints.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did you mean when you said he threw his bones and he asked "what our complaint was"?  Or are you saying you didn't say that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: After throwing his bones he told us that his aware what our complaints are before we could tell him what our complaints were.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that he never asked you what your complaint was, he told you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he just knew everything?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.
	Now did you or any of the people with you ever tell the sangoma about people dying in your village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No, no one told him about the deaths in our village.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever tell him that your village might have a problem with witchcraft?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We did not tell him that we have a problem in our village about witchcraft because our purpose of going there, we wanted him to tell us about our problem.

MR RICHARD: How often did he throw his bones?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We spent the whole night there.

MR RICHARD: And during that time did he throw his bones once, twice or more than twice, lots of times?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: As we arrived there he started throwing his bones until we left.

MR RICHARD: Now did you, during the course of that night, mention either to each other in his presence or directly to him the names of any people in the village, in your village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No, we did not mention any name to him.

MR RICHARD: Now after this process of bone throwing and listening to him, was anyone or any people, more than one people identified as anything at all?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.

MR RICHARD: What is correct, was one person identified as something or more than one person?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He mentioned four people and he said those are the people who caused those deaths in our village.

ADV SIBANYONI: Let me try to ...(indistinct).
	Did he mention the people by name or by description?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No he was just describing them.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now from his description, how did you work out who these people were?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When the sangoma described a person he will in his description include his household and describe his house, everything in the yard including the trees and in that way we were able to know who that person might be.

MR RICHARD: Now you've said both now and in your statement in support of your application that four witches were identified.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he say that in his statement?

MR RICHARD: Sorry, he doesn't say four in his statement, I was reading my notes, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR RICHARD: You say now that four people were identified.  In your statement you say
"All witches taken by the community to the traditional doctor."
That's at paragraph 4.  What do you mean by that?  Does that mean that you took the witches to him?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat?

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 4 of your statement there's a sentence which begins and I read
"All witches taken by the community to the traditional doctor, sangoma, next to Komatipoort."
My question then is were any people taken to the traditional doctor on that or any later occasion?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The way you put this question, I do not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sekgobela, the witch-doctor gave you descriptions, you spend the whole night there, right?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you then do?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We went back home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and what did you do there?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When we arrived at home we went to the chief and informed the community what we were told by the witch-doctor and we went to fetch those people.

CHAIRPERSON: You went to fetch the witches?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes we did.

CHAIRPERSON: How may witches did you fetch?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Four of them.  Those who were described by the doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and what did you do with them?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We talked to them, we told them what the doctor said about them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Some of them agreed, they said yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: How many agreed?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: One of them refused.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the deceased?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what did you do?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Those who agreed we told them that they should leave the village and they agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: They left?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes they did.

CHAIRPERSON: And the deceased refused to leave?