Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-21

STEPHANIE MILLER: I wouldn't have said so, no.

MR VISSER: Oh you thought it was further away from Winkelspruit, is that what you're saying?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, that's not what I'm saying, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: But obviously it's closer to where she lived.

STEPHANIE MILLER: It's closer to where she lived at Winkelspruit, certainly.

MR VISSER: Yes, well that's the point I'm making, that's the point.

MR LAX: But the point you made was the area where she lived, and it's not the area where she lived.  So ...  It's closer to the area where she lived, yes.

MR VISSER: She lived in KwaMashu.

MR LAX: Yes, but this is Bambai, it's a completely different area.

MR VISSER: Is this in fact - the point that was pointed out, was that in Bambai, because I wasn't aware of that, Mr Chairman?

MR LAX: It's in the area of Bambai, yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: I see, so the main road, is that the boundary between KwaMashu and Bambai?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No.

MR LAX: No, KwaMashu's much further away from that place.  It's obvious, you can see the built up area of KwaMashu ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we could determine that quite easily with some sort of map, because I personally don't know where one area ends and the other starts.

MR VISSER: Yes, neither was I, Chairperson, but I have a recollection, and unfortunately we forgot to place the notes of the inspection in loco on record, but I have a clear recollection that somebody was pointing out where she had lived and there approximate distances guessed and it ranged between two and five kilometres, it was just up the hill, and I was under the impression it's the same area.  But if it's called something else, it doesn't matter Chairperson, I'm still putting to Mrs Miller that it was relatively close to where she lived.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well relative to what, Mr Visser?

CHAIRPERSON: Winkelspruit.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Winkelspruit, yes.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I must place on record that my recollection of the distance between the place where the body was allegedly dumped and the house, was that it was in excess of five kilometres.  I just would like to place that on record.  I don't agree that it was two kilometres, or it was ever agreed that it was two kilometres.

MR VISSER: Mrs Miller, how many State mortuaries, government mortuaries were there in and around Durban at the time in 1987?  Do you know?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I can't answer that question.

MR VISSER: You can't answer that question.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I could give you a list.

MR VISSER: Could you give us list you say?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Not right at this moment because I don't have it accessible.

MR VISSER: But would you please do that for us, we'd appreciate it, because that's something we asked in the letter as well.
	Because you see, as I understand your evidence this morning is, what you modus operandi was, was to go through the Verulam mortuary records of the whole year, from number so and so to number so and so and by a process of elimination, attempting to find the most possible remains that could belong to Mrs Kubheka.  This is what I understood you to say.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is partially so.

MR VISSER: What other part is there to it?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well it wouldn't just have been that, we would have been guided by the fact that your clients would have told us where they disposed of the body and therefore it would have gone to that mortuary.

MR VISSER: Ja, okay, fair enough.  I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand what you were saying.  But what you did was you tried to isolate the body which most possibly belonged to Mrs Kubheka, that is why you went through the registers.

STEPHANIE MILLER: The most possible likely body, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: If there had been three or four, we would have isolated those.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you came up with 580?

STEPHANIE MILLER: We came up with 580.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now the point here is just this, that only relates to the Verulam registers.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Can you tell us please, because we've been trying to find this out, can you tell us whether there were records of other mortuaries in the Durban area, in the greater Durban area?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Of course, every mortuary keeps records.

MR VISSER: Right.  Can I ask you then, must we accept that you did not go through any records of any of the other mortuaries?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I did go through records of other mortuaries in other cases, specifically.

MR VISSER: No, no, in this case.

STEPHANIE MILLER: In this case, whilst looking for other victims I would have gone through other mortuary records and keeping this in mind, I would have also observed what they had in them.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright, alright.  But those registers aren't here?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, those registers are not here.

MR VISSER: No, those registers are not here.  If those registers were here it would indicate that your clients would have been fundamentally dishonest in saying where they had disposed of the body, so I had to presume that that was, they had made an error in the locality, but not in the general area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Miller, you've gone through the Verulam records and you've also spoken about the Phoenix mortuary, now at that time were there two mortuaries, or the is the Phoenix a new mortuary that's come into existence since then?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct, the Phoenix mortuary wasn't in existence at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but it then took over the functions that were performed by the old Verulam mortuary, which was done away with and the records were brought over to Phoenix.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

MR LAX: Could I just ask something if I may, did you look at Gale(?) Street, for example?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I had spent a considerable period of time in Gale Street, going through the mortuary records.

MR LAX: In relation to this matter?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Not specifically in this matter, but with this matter in mind I had also looked through their records.  I had focused specifically on the area where the amnesty applicants said they had disposed of the body.

MR LAX: Let me put it in another way, why did you exclude Gale Street?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I didn't exclude Gale Street, specifically.  I had gone through their records extensively and even having done that, during that period of time this body size and description most closely over that period, matched what we were looking for.

MR LAX: Did you look, for example, at Gale Street during April and May and June and July, for example, of 1987?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I did in relationship to some of the other cases of the other missing people who we believed were abducted at the same time.

MR LAX: And why did you not copy any of those registers?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I didn't find a match in the same way as I found a match at Verulam.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, before you proceed, I've received a note that we should carry on till eleven thirty, so we won't stop at eleven.  But I also would like to, during the tea interval, speak to the legal representatives about Monday's evidence and perhaps then if we could adjourn for tea at eleven fifteen and then we'll have a discussion immediately in my room and then have the tea at eleven thirty.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: I'll try to note the time, Chairperson.
	Alright.  You see I was just going to ask you the same question and I'm not going to repeat what Commissioner Lax has asked you, but I just want to ask you this now, would you say that it is possible that while you were looking through the Gale Street mortuary records, with a view of other matters in which you were involved, that you did not specifically look out for a possible match of Mrs Kubheka?  Would that be a fair statement?