Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think the way I understood it Mr van Wyk was that he was sent out to reconnoitre around Lancet Hall.

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon, he went there to?

SISI KHAMPEPE: He went there to reconnoitre around Lancet Hall.

UNKNOWN: I will just take it a bit further thank you Commissioner. You went there also to collect information as to what happened there. Would you agree with that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It is part and parcel of it.

UNKNOWN: You got there and you found a person lying outside in Von Williegh Street close to the or in the close proximity of the garage doors at Lancet Hall. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you enquire from anybody as to what happened there?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No because I have seen them fleeing and I had heard a gun shot then I know what was happening. Immediately when I was there I knew and I thought okay there were those gun shots I think these were the gun shots.

UNKNOWN: Well did you know who shot this man?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you make any enquiries as to who shot this person outside the offices of the ANC?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It was not as easy as you are putting it now.

UNKNOWN: What I am asking you, you went there to collect information or to find out what happened. Why didn't you make any enquiries from any of the people standing around there Sir?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think it was not that important to ask because I have heard the gun shots then I was just going to observe to see what was happening.

UNKNOWN: Was it not important for you to know whether any of the ANC guards possibly fired those shots?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Not exactly.

UNKNOWN: Didn't you make any enquiries because you knew that it was an ANC guard that fired that shot?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think those are your views.

MR LAX: Well did you or didn't you know at that stage that those shots were fired by guards?

CHAIRPERSON: That the man had been shot by ...(inaudible)

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I was not (...intervention)

MR LAX: That the man had been shot by guards let's be more specific.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I didn't know that.

UNKNOWN: I see in your amnesty application if I may refer you to the specific page. If you can turn to page 70 of your application paragraph 11B. The question is posed in respect of certain acts committed. And the question is asked whether there were any orders given. I will read it to you
"If so state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known the name and address of the person or persons who gave such order or approval."
Now firstly in respect of Mr Kruser the order to repel was that given to you alone or to all the guards at the corner?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: The order to repel?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think the order to repel was given to everybody because he didn't whisper to me.

UNKNOWN: Did you receive any other orders to fire that day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: To fire again?

UNKNOWN: No. Did you receive any other orders from any other person to fire at the marchers on that day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No. I think if you understand military there is only one commander there are no many commanders.

UNKNOWN: Now what is this order that you refer to namely: "Order was given by ANC president, Nelson Mandela." What is that order?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Okay the order to protect the installation and the leadership of the ANC was given by the president. That is what we have got.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear that personally or was it conveyed to you?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It was conveyed to us.

UNKNOWN: Mr Khumalo I want to put it to you on behalf of the objectors that I appear for they will deny that they had any arms with them. Can you dispute that? Any firearms?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think it is their version.

UNKNOWN: You cannot dispute it. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I cannot dispute it. I cannot dispute it. I can't nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: He won't know who your clients were in any case.

UNKNOWN: I further just want to put it to the witness to have an opportunity to reply to it they will deny that they in any way attacked either the guards or the building or the leadership.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is their democratic right to answer in that manner.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: .

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just a few questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Khumalo were you wearing normal civilian clothes on that day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: We always wear civilian clothes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I just want to take you to the corner King George and de Villiers Street the incident in front of your ... When you went there were you carrying your firearm in your hand?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Which firearm please?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: As far as I recollect you only had a pistol, your own personal firearm when you went to that corner. Isn't that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you carrying that in your hand when you went there?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No always a firearm stay in my side.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Why do you think a marcher who might not even know you were firing in your direction being there in normal civilian clothes without displaying a firearm?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I can't answer even that one because what he have done he have shot at us.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The order that was given by Mr Kruser would you have shot without that order being given?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think so.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I just want to put to you that the objectors on whose behalf I appear are exactly the same as those stated by the other objectors. No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo I would just like to refer you to page 4 of your affidavit that supports your application, that is on page 76 of bundle C. And I just refer to page 76, and in specific I would just like to refer you to paragraph 16 where you describe that after you heard some shots at your regional offices a number of people came running down Plein Street carrying traditional weapons and they seemed to be confused about where they were. I would just like to put you on that context. If I read what you are stating there is it correct that you got the impression that the people were lost when they got where you were at that stage?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Hundred percent.

UNKNOWN: And did these people give you the idea that they knew exactly where Shell House the building is and that they knew the surroundings, the streets of that area where they were in?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

UNKNOWN: Just for completeness sake then the objectors on behalf of which I appear will also state that they did not have any firearms with them on that day and that they did not carry out any attack on Shell House or the ANC guards.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN WYK

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much. You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to adjourn now.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson if we can adjourn in the vicinity of four 'o clock not later than four 'o clock to put it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: I am going to promise I am going to do my utmost, I think we would be able to do so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: We wouldn't have any difficulty with attending to that.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now and resume at nine fifteen tomorrow morning. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS