Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I guess so.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And many of those rumours must have come to your attention?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I guess so, yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You must be aware that one of the earliest rumours was that there had been an acrimonious conversation between Uys and ZUR which had been tape-recorded?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Have you never been aware of that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've only heard that much, much - the word acrimonious I don't even know about, I'm not aware of an acrimonious conversation, and I have not heard that, I've picked that up later as a rumour.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Were you aware that there was a rumour of any conversation?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've read it in the newspaper, there was even a rumour that Captain Uys phoned me through ZUR apparently in the middle of the night.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct, that rumour was certainly current at some stage during the investigation.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I think so.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Now you are also aware that after an accident there are certain guidelines which have to be complied with in terms of Department of Civil Aviation rules, aren't you?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And one of the guidelines is that every available piece of information relating to the aircraft which could possibly have a bearing on its loss has to be made available to DCA?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And that you, as a responsible chief executive officer, would make certain that that standing instruction was complied with to the last letter?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Theoretically yes, as CEO... (inter-vention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...practically that's impossible to do in a large organisation.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct, but that would be the role of the chief executive officer... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Certainly.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...and that man would be you?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Certainly.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, you must be aware at this stage, and you must be aware shortly after the accident, that the middle tape of the ZUR tape recordings was no longer available for the Department of Civil Aviation?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You must be aware, and have been for all these years, that the tape regarding the take-off of that aircraft was available, and still is, in fact?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've never listened to it, I'm not aware of that, I know there is a tape missing, okay?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   Let me - the tape - let me fill you in... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Please.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...and if you want to contradict any of it, please do so.    The information that I have is that the tape of the take-off from Taipei is available.   The tape recording at ZUR of the following day is available.   What is missing is the tape in between.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That's the piece that I'm aware of is missing.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay, I don't know what there is, please.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No, we're ad idem, there's a tape... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...there's tape in between that is missing.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And not only is that tape missing, but the rumours have persistently alleged that there is something sinister on that tape.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You're aware of that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You're also aware, Mr Van der Veer, that an extensive investigation by DCA culminated in a hearing chaired by Mr Justice Margo?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Were you satisfied with the outcome of the Margo Inquiry?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You felt that it was done impartially and taking all facts into consideration?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And in fact I remember quite well that you attended a large number of the sessions of that inquiry, because I remember seeing you there?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not a large number, a few, sorry.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You were certainly there, because I... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I was there... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...I can remember seeing you there?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes I was, yes I was.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: So you paid more than a passing interest to Mr Margo's deliberations?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And I presume that you would have had staff members inform you... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...about the proceedings?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Probably Viv Lewis?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Anyone that was there.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And certainly Mickey Mitchell was there quite a lot?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.   And the legal adviser, Mr Malherbe... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...etcetera.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.   There would have been, probably daily or every other day, there would have been debriefing sessions?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not necessarily debriefing, but they kept me informed.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   Now you must also have been aware that at the time, with the rumours circulating, that the missing ZUR tape would be likely to be viewed in an extremely serious light?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And it must have been obvious to anybody but a fool, and you are no fool, that the most sinister inter-pretation possible could be placed on that missing tape?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Obviously.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And that any steps towards elucidating what had happened to the tape would have been useful?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You were also, I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, well informed about the legal preparations relating to the Margo Inquiry, who was to be called, not necessarily the nitty-gritty... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not the nitty-gritty.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...but you would have been aware of the broad... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...brash picture of what was happening?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And certainly the missing ZUR tape would have been more than a detail on that canvas, it would have been part of the broader picture?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: It was one of the items.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It was.   Are you aware that the tape was signed out that night of ZUR?   Or let me just start you a little further back, you realise that not anybody could just walk into ZUR and help yourself to a tape?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But for the tape to get out of ZUR, it would have to be signed out according to a well-rehearsed procedure?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You're also aware that with the seriousness of the allegations being made relating to that tape, that if the tape had been accidentally or inadvertently overtaped, that the simplest thing to do to allay the fears, would have been to take the tape, because they are large, they are larger than this book, take the empty tape, the tape which has now been unfortunately overtaped, and go to Judge Margo in open court and say, "Judge Margo, we have made an unforgivable error.   Here is the tape which somehow got back into the line and got overtaped and we are sorry, but here it is".   Was that ever done?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.