Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR HEWITT: All right, what I am trying to simply establish is that having regard to your fairly high position in the organisation at the time, rocket launchers according to you, would have been the kind of weapon that would have been given to the SDU's for self protection purposes?  You didn't see anything inconsistent or incongruous or contradictory about a rocket launcher being for self defence purposes, that is what I am trying to establish?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was never informed at any stage that there were any rocket launchers to be given to Self Defence Units.

MR HEWITT: No, but I am asking you what your view at the time would have been.  Would you then have regarded a rocket launcher as being the kind of thing not necessary for self defence or the kind of weapon that would be necessary for self defence?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I said normally that would not be the case, but when you look at the type of weapons that the then Defence Force was having, like armoured vehicles, in those circumstances where the Defence Force was coming to terrorise the township with the type of weapon, then probably the rocket launcher could be a defensive weapon.

MR HEWITT: So, I know this is somewhat hypothetical but had you peeked into the boot of the Workshop delivery and seen rocket launchers there as well, would you have been surprised by that for Self Defence Unit purposes, or would you have thought no, this is a legitimate kind of thing for self defence purposes?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well as you have correctly pointed out, it is a hypothetical question indeed, because at no stage did we ever distribute any rocket launchers for Self Defence Units.

MR HEWITT: You know that as a fact?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I know that as a fact, yes.

MR HEWITT: Can I take it from that answer that because rocket launchers and rockets obviously to go with the rocket launchers, were never distributed by the ANC to Self Defence Units, presumably that reflected an attitude by the ANC that these weren't the kind of weapons needed for self defence?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I am unaware of any Self Defence Units that were given rocket launchers.

MR HEWITT: No, that is not quite an answer to my question.  Were the Self Defence Units as far as you are concerned, never given such weaponry because such weaponry was not regarded as the kind of weaponry necessary for self defence?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I think I have already answered your question that I am unaware of any Self Defence Units that were given rocket launchers.

MR HEWITT: All right, you mentioned Golela as it is pronounced by some people.  What do you know about the arms cache at Golela?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: What I know about that is what I read in the papers and that there was comrades who were arrested there at Golela.

MR HEWITT: Well, Mr Sithole sitting on your right hand side, was he arrested there?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Not at all.

MR HEWITT: Was he not arrested at Golela?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, he was never arrested at Golela.

CHAIRPERSON: If you take a look at page 33 of the papers Mr Hewitt, it says - Mr Sithole says in January I was arrested in Durban, the second paragraph from the top.

MR HEWITT: Yes, that is correct.  I know that, but I am asking this witness about it.
	He says he refers to the comrades being arrested at Golela and then he refers to his arrest in Durban further on.  I am aware of that, but I am simply asking this particular applicant about that.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he wasn't.  Then you asked him again.

MR HEWITT: You are saying yourself, that he was not arrested in Golela?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, he was not.

MR HEWITT: All right.  Do you know whether Mr Sithole was ever incarcerated in Middelburg?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, in Middelburg?

MR HEWITT: Yes.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, that I know because I actually went there to see them.

MR HEWITT: Is it correct that at Middelburg, Sithole whom we referred to, the other applicant in the case, one Nkubezi and one Makoba were detained at Middelburg?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I saw all of them there, I went there with Krappies Engelbrecht.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: With the then General of the Defence, Krappies Engelbrecht.

MR HEWITT: Right, is it correct that in fact an ANC delegation went to visit the gentlemen that I have now referred to?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was in that delegation.

MR HEWITT: It was?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: In that delegation was Matthew Phosa, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It was Matthew Phosa, General Siphiwe  Nyanda, Mo Shake, Bekha Shezi and myself.

MR HEWITT: That is Siphiwe Nyanda is it?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Siphiwe, forgive my pronunciation, Ngculu?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Come again?

MR HEWITT: Ngculu, being described as Deputy Chief of Staff, based Transkei Eastern Cape, does that name ring a bell?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Oh yes, yes.

MR HEWITT: Was he also - do you confirm he also was part of the delegation?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I think so.

MR HEWITT: Yourself and Mo Shake?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Mo Shake, yes.

MR HEWITT: All right.  Was Mr Sithole in fact and those other people that we have mentioned, that is Makoba and Nkubezi, were they under arrest in connection with this arms cache at Golela?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Were they ever charged?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, they were charged.

MR HEWITT: Were the charges pursued or were they dropped?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It was pursued, because I think they appeared in court, but the case I think, even though my facts are no longer as accurate, but my understanding is that the charges were dropped or whatever, but he is here, he will explain.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but the point is that your meeting with him, or the delegation that you were part of at Middelburg, was that a view to possibly getting the charges withdrawn?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, our purpose was to find out what happened.

MR HEWITT: Okay.  Did you establish that the arms cache in fact that was found at Golela consisted of the kind of weapons that I am talking about, rocket launchers, rockets, and fairly heavy armourment like the ones that we have been talking about?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That is common knowledge.

MR HEWITT: Do you confirm that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I won't know the details, but I know that there were weapons that were found there, that is why they were arrested in the first place.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but the weapons that were found, were things like rocket launchers and rockets, that is what I am asking you to confirm?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I think I remember there were some rocket launchers, yes.

MR HEWITT: They were?  Okay.  Did you ever receive instructions from Siphiwe Nyanda yourself?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Come again.

MR HEWITT: Did you ever receive instruction about ANC operations from  Siphiwe Nyanda, the present Chief of the Army?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I said my instructions came from Chris Hani.

MR HEWITT: I want to show you for your comment and unfortunately I don't have any copies at this stage, but during the adjournment we can have copies made so that this can be a document on record, if I could just show you this document at this stage, we will have copies made later on.
	If I could just read the contents of this document into the record, it is on a African National Congress letterhead.  It is addressed to S/Natal REC, what would that mean?  Southern Natal presumably, REC, what would that be?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Regional Executive Committee, I suspect.

MR HEWITT: Attention Chairperson/Regional Secretary.  Would that be you?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.