Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I have a number of comrades who grew up in the area with him and we knew him.  So they knew each other.  Therefore all those people who were being attacked knew him and therefore they could actually identify him to me.

MR MAPOMA: So, at the time you killed him you had already identified him?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Would you turn to page 9 of the bundle please.  In page 9 at paragraph (b) of that page, you were asked there in that form to state the person who was injured or killed.  You said one person was killed.  And then paragraph (c) says, "If so, state the name or names of the victims".  You say, "I could not identify him".  Do you see that contradiction?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I can explain, as I have mentioned before, sometimes the English language presents a problem when you write it.

MR MAPOMA: But you went as far as standard 10?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, but you cannot know everything.

MR MAPOMA: (Inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I will like to explain that I did this all by myself.  So, I may have made mistakes from misunderstandings.  And moreover, it's not my language.  Maybe if it had been written in the mother tongue I would have understood it better.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you complete a number of application forms for amnesty?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: In prison some things are not done promptly.  I had made an application and some of the people I had applied with had received responses already and I was not sure whether my form had been sent.  So, I completed another one.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Sibiya, on the basis of these number of contradictions that have been highlighted now from your application and what you say today, I suggest that what you say today is an afterthought of what you initially said to the Committee in this application form.  I would like your comment to that.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I will explain.  As I am here today, the Committee is communicating to me in my own mother tongue which I understand fully as opposed to what was written in the application form.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that the deceased is not the only person that you identified as a target in the area, am I right?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: When I arrived at the shop where this incident took place, though I do not remember the dates correctly, but ... (intervention)

MR MAPOMA: Mr Sibiya, to assist you.  I suggest that you answer the question, okay.  My question to you is that I take it that the deceased is not the only person whom you identified as a target there?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Sibiya, please don't move this microphone closer to you.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Okay.

MR LAX: It keeps distorting when you move it closer.  It's loud enough in the hall.  Don't worry.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: And the other person with whom the deceased was at the time you say you called them, was also one of the targets, is it so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that other person was not charged for the attack of your members of the family, isn't that so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I mentioned before, I do not know how the case proceeded, about who was charged and who was not.  I do not have knowledge about it.

MR MAPOMA: But you knew that the deceased was charged?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: It was hearsay.  Therefore I cannot say it for certain if indeed he was charged.

MR MAPOMA: So, you heard that the deceased was charged, and you didn't hear that the other person was charged also as well, is it not so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Please repeat your question.

MR MAPOMA: When you went there to see the two persons, the only person whom you knew as a person who was responsible for attacking your family was Mfriyi and not the other guy, is that not so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: No.  What I know is that all these people were responsible for attacking PAC members, that was the information that I had, that they were attacking PAC members.  Whether he indeed had been the one who had attacked my home I did not have knowledge thereof, but I only knew about their attacking PAC members.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but I'm talking about those who attacked your family.  I'm saying Mfriyi Dludlu is the only person you knew for a fact or you heard to have been responsible for attacking your family, is that not correct?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I did not follow that issue to find out who indeed attacked my family, but what I was concentrating on was finding or identifying the people who were attacking PAC members.

MR MAPOMA: Were your family members PAC members?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: No, that is not correct.

MR MAPOMA: And these family members of yours were attacked you heard by the deceased, is it so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I have mentioned before, I did not have accurate information.  I don't think my family even knows who did attack them.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Sibiya, I suggest that you killed the deceased because he killed your family members or you believed he killed your family members.  What do you say to that suggestion?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: If that was indeed a personal case I would have responded promptly, but because I believed that these people were after me and my family was only attacked incidentally I did not react in that way.

MR MAPOMA: And I suggest that you killed the deceased because you were revenging.  It was a revenge attack on the members of your family.  What do you say to that?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Well, I may say it again.  The attack on my family did not necessitate that I execute a revenge attack.  If that had been the case I would have responded promptly.  I would have been able to do so, but because I knew how disciplined the PAC was, I would have not have done something of that nature to kill somebody for such purposes.

MR MAPOMA: Precisely what order was it that you received from Comrade Mandla?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I explained before that Mandla said that I should identify all those people who were responsible for killing PAC members, who burnt them down and who burnt their houses down, and who were responsible for PAC members fleeing the area.  Those people should be killed so that the attacking of PAC member shall stop.  That is why I killed this person.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you how to stop that?  Did he instruct you on how to do precisely to stop that?  I want to get the precise instructions that you got from Comrade Mandla.  What steps exactly that he said you must do, apart from identifying them?  He said you must identify them so that they can be stopped.  How were they going to be stopped?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR MAPOMA: My question is, from the instructions of your commander, how were you going to stop the attack on PAC members?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: From the explanation given to me by Mandla, we were supposed to find the culprits so that we could stop them by attacking them so that they do not trouble PAC members again.

MR MAPOMA: He did not instruct you to go and kill Mfriyi Dludlu, is it so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: If you look at this word "attack", it means that you just do that, attack the person.

MR MAPOMA: And from your instructions, you were instructed to identify all those responsible and stop them, and you identified Dludlu only and killed him.  He's the only person you killed.  You did not identify others and stop them.  How do you explain this?  Why Dludlu only?