Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

DITINI THYIDO: They said they still have the money.  We didn't ask them, first of all I want to explain to the Commission that we stay in shacks and we don't have proper offices, at that time as we were discussing this issue there were criminals all over and the people were about to attack us and we actually asking them, because we were afraid that there is a lot of crime around, so we wanted to know where is the money.
	So it was not the type of the meeting that we have today, it was just a meeting whereby you were still very tense because the people were attacked the previous night.  So we were very tense, it was not this kind of relaxed meeting.

MR BRINK: On the 29th of August, you went to his house?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And you say the purpose of that visit was to persuade him to tell you where there was to have been a meeting between him and the ISU?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: And did you actually ask him about that, where the meeting was to be held?  I think you said you went to find out when and where the meeting was to be held?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I asked him.

MR BRINK: What did he reply?

DITINI THYIDO: I can't remember the straight answer, but he was actually shocked.

MR BRINK: In what way?

DITINI THYIDO: I can't remember the response, he was not actually saying the specific, he was not giving the specific answer.

JUDGE WILSON: Why was he shocked?  Why do you say he was shocked?

DITINI THYIDO: I suppose I want to correct this thing, in the R Block, it was the section that was under Mr Mpisane and his constituency.  While we were at the R Section, we were regarded as the enemy, so we didn't have time to make observations.
	Because we were not relaxing because we were taken as enemies.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In that case Mr Thyido, how could you deduce that he was shocked?

DITINI THYIDO: It is because while I was still asking him these questions where were the others, he decided to run away and we were not even at a distance from his house, but he decided to run away.   There is nothing that I can say that we discussed and he gave us the response.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who were you referring to when you were asking him about the others, who were the others?

DITINI THYIDO: Those were the people in his group who were responsible for collecting money.  I am not sure if you want their names?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you have their names?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I know their names.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you give us their names?

DITINI THYIDO: Mr Mqokeli Mpungwana, Mr Fundile Matoto, Mr Millian Sizani and Mr Mattheys and Mr Libele, I can't remember their first names, but I remember it was Mr Mattheys and Mr Libele.

JUDGE WILSON: If you knew who these people were, why did you ask him who they were?  Because you just told us you asked him who are the others, now you tell us you knew them by name?

DITINI THYIDO: The reason for that, I wanted to know where are they, where were they because as a leader of the Self Defence Unit I was forced to make sure that there is a meeting or there is no meeting, but if they were around, we wouldn't get a chance of discussing, so I was forced to ask him ... (tape ends)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Thyido, did the people that you have just mentioned to us, know that you were going to have a meeting at Bongi's house?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... advise them of this meeting?

DITINI THYIDO: Who?

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... Mattheys and Mr Libele?  You had all given them prior notice of the meeting of the 29th of August, is that what you are saying?

DITINI THYIDO: No, Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... could you ask where are the others, if they didn't know that there was going to be a meeting at Mr Mpisane's house?

DITINI THYIDO: As I've already said that on the 29th we got a tip that there would be a meeting between the police and Mr Mpisane, but when we found that Mr Mpisane was alone, we realised that the others might be around, therefore we were expecting him to be in that meeting, so we had to ask him where are the others, because we knew that we got a tip of that they would be having a meeting with the ISU's.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: How many days or weeks before the 29th of August was the meeting at the school held - approximately?

DITINI THYIDO: I think it is quite a number of months.

MR BRINK: That is strange (indistinct) in a school, at a school, was Bongi then suspected of being an impimpi?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: And at that meeting, was there any attempt to directly accuse him of being an impimpi?

DITINI THYIDO: As the SDU's we were there to protect him, so it was not like that.

MR BRINK: To protect an impimpi?

DITINI THYIDO: We were actually protecting the say that a person could be accused of being an informant.

MR BRINK: ... disciplinary structures in your organisation I take it?

DITINI THYIDO: Do you mean in the Self Defence Unit sir?  That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: Why wouldn't steps then be taken to discipline a man who was being suspected of being an impimpi?

DITINI THYIDO: I would like to explain like this.  A person who is being suspected as an informant, it was not a person that we would take him or her seriously.
	As the SDU we didn't have much knowledge of politics, we had procedures that should be followed to make sure that a particular person is a real informant.

MR BRINK: Were such steps taken?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: What were the result of these steps which were taken?

DITINI THYIDO: As I've already told you that from the 29th, the period between the day of the meeting and the 29th, there were rumours that Mr Mpisane was an informant, but as the Unit we were forced to wait and see, to be sure that this person was a real informant.

MR BRINK: And on the 29th of August, you say you believed that?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, we believed those rumours.

MR BRINK: And you went to his house?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir.

MR BRINK: Three of you?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: And you asked him where the others were?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: He looked shocked?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir, he was very shocked.

MR BRINK: He ran away?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir, he ran away.  Yes, he was shot.

MR BRINK: Are you seeking amnesty then in respect of the attempted murder relating to him and for the possession of arms and ammunition?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes.  I am referring to both charges and as this other issue when that other person is alleged to be killed, even if it is not a child, though it is said that someone else was killed also and as a person who was on the scene that day, I would also ask for forgiveness because of the death of that child.

MR BRINK: Just tell me briefly, what was your involvement if any in regard to the death of that child?

DITINI THYIDO: Myself, do you mean myself?

MR BRINK: Yes.

DITINI THYIDO: If it is true that that child was shot, died from the bullet, that was being shot by Maliqole, I am also involved as equal as Maliqole because he also shot.  I am just like the person who shot, because I was also involved there.

MR BRINK: As far as you could see, did he point his rifle at the child or was the child killed accidentally?

DITINI THYIDO: Surely, if this child was killed by a bullet from Maliqole's gun, or either, he died accidentally.

MR BRINK: Well, who was Maliqole intending to shoot?

DITINI THYIDO: Maliqole didn't intend to shoot to a specific person, but because Mr Bongi was running away, we had to prevent him, so we were actually preventing Bongi not to run away.
	But if he was running, we had to prevent him from running away to ensure our safety so that he couldn't meet with the other people somewhere, somewhere there.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting on the 29th of August, was that supposed to be a meeting of the ANC?

DITINI THYIDO: No sir.