Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MR MAPOMA: Why were these suitcase and bags and radios taken away?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I don't know where he was taking them because he was also asked why was he carrying those things and then he left them there as he was asked.

MR MAPOMA: No, what are you saying now, can you explain what you are saying?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Explain what are you saying.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: As we were leaving Bongani was asked why he was carrying those bags and then he dropped them then and there and then he started walking with us, he left those bags there.

MR MAPOMA: Where did he drop them?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It wasn't quite a distance it was nearer to the farm.

ADV BOSMAN: Who asked him why he was carrying it?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mtando Tshabalala.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he with you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes he was.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying now Mduduzi was carrying two radios, a purse and a suitcase alone when you were leaving, is that what you're saying?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes Mduduzi was carrying a gun, Bongani was carrying a gun and a bag, that's all.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, my question is are you saying Mduduzi was carrying two radios, one suitcase, one purse all by himself when you were leaving?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes he had put the other items inside the suitcase.

MR MAPOMA: Oh, this is the Mduduzi that threw the telephone, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It was Mtando who threw the telephone and broke it.

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry.  Now where is Mduduzi?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I don't know where he is now.

MR MAPOMA: Is he still alive do you know?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes he is still alive.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: After you had left the farm did you get to know from your colleagues why Mr Mtola was shot?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes we did ask.  It wasn't just myself, me and the rest who were behind we asked what transpired and we were told that he was fighting and Mduduzi just decided to shoot at him because also he was an IFP, that's what Mduduzi said.

ADV SANDI: Do you know of anyone who stayed on the farm with Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No at that time I didn't know.

ADV SANDI: Yes but did you know if anyone was staying in the house on the farm with Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I didn't know that there were other people who were staying with them inside the house.

ADV SANDI: Did you know if Mr Mtola knew you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No he didn't know me.

ADV SANDI: Did you know him?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I did know him.

ADV SANDI: What did you know about him?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: My mother's brother.

ADV SANDI: He's your mother's brother?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Are you aware of any members of the so-called Coloured community who were members or supporters of the IFP?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No I don't know of any.

ADV SANDI: Did you know of any Coloured person elsewhere who was a member or supporter of the IFP?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Tell us about that.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: There is a certain guy who is a Coloured and he is an IFP supporter.  He usually went to a certain area where it was IFP dominant and he will take with them about the ANC and some boys will would come and tell us what he was saying and there are other families as well in my neighbourhood even though it's not so close but I also know that they are supporters of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS LOONAT: No Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jili, you are excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anything else?

MS LOONAT: Would you like me to address otherwise there is nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicant?  Yes Ms Reddy, what is your position?

MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, I just wish to call Mrs Julia Ferrero to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Julia Ferrero?

MS REDDY: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will she come forward?  Is it an eye witness?

MS REDDY: No Mr Chairperson, she's the daughter of the late Mrs Patila Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it background information, it's not to do with the incident?

MS REDDY: Not predominantly Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Just switch on her microphone there.

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: My name is Julia Arensi nee Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Arensi?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other name?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: Nee Ferrero, I was a Miss Ferrero.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh is Arensi your married surname?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we've got that.

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Reddy.

MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  	Can you tell us what's your relationship to the two said victims?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: Mrs Patila Ferrero was my mom and Mr Mtola was -I can't say, he was a person living with my mom and my dad.

MS REDDY: Can you describe Mrs Patila Ferrero to us?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: My mom was a very homely person, she wasn't one who moved around a lot, she kept close to the quarters of the home and the immediate home grounds.  She never walked further than the nearest vicinity of the yard.  She seldom went out and she seldom kept much contact with any people.  She used to be mostly in the home and whoever saw my mom had to come to the home to see her because she wasn't one who was moving around any more.

MS REDDY: What was the relationship with the neighbouring people?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: She was friendly with them, they'd bring people and she knew them, she kept acquaintances with them, she wasn't over friendly with them but she knew the people and they knew her because the farmhouse was isolated and a lot of people needed help from her in many kinds of problems they had, maybe others with their pension, others with maybe injuries and such sort of things then she would render assistance whoever asked for her assistance.

MS REDDY: Can you tell us a little about Mr Mtola, the other victim?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: Mr Mtola was a person that came to the home in 1976.  He originally came wanting employment.  That time my dad was still productive, he was still doing quite a lot of work on the farm and Mr Mtola wanted employment but it was found that Mr Mtola had a very low I.Q.  His I.Q. was rather low and he wasn't physically capable and neither was he mentally capable to really do heavy work or any kind of work so my parents took him on from then and would try to retrain him especially mentally so he could become better, more able to do certain things at least, you know, to be able to assist himself and then from that time he didn't want to be separated from the family, he wanted to live with the old people, my mom and my dad and the three of them grew old gracefully together there and you couldn't separate the three of these people because they were very fond of each other and they had grown to live together for many years together.

MS REDDY: Can you tell us about the physical capacity of your father, the late Mr Edward Ferrero?

JULIA ARENSI FERRERO: My dad had already gone old, he was on the verge of senility, he was starting to grow old and he didn't have much energy any more and he also kept very much to the home and didn't move around much and wasn't very physically fit any more, you could see that he was going downhill physically and mentally he wasn't very mentally capable any more because it seemed that it was Parkinson's setting in and there was a bit of senile dementia, so something starting to set in because he was becoming forgetful and he wasn't very capable of much any more.  Just keeping near the home and keeping the home fires burning.

MS REDDY: What type of relationship did he share with the neighbouring people?