Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  We are continuing with the applications relating to the Zevenfontein incident, and Mr Draht yesterday indicated that he'll be commencing today by calling Mr Ndlovu.  Is that correct, Mr Draht?

MR DRAHT: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Draht?

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: There is a bundle of papers in front of you.  If you look at page 6 thereof, Mr Chairperson I refer you to page 6 of the bundle, is that your signature on that page?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that's my signature.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu can you tell me, can you read or write English?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I can read and write, but not English.

MR DRAHT: What is your standard of education?

MR NDLOVU: Standard 5.

MR DRAHT: Has somebody read that statement to you after taking it?

MR NDLOVU: No, they did not read it to me.

MR DRAHT: Can you remember who took the statement from you?

MR NDLOVU: If I still remember very well, it was Mr Msizi and Mr Claassen.

MR DRAHT: On the day that that statement was taken from yourself, did they only take your statement, or was there other people present whose statements was also taken?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, there were many of us, and some of the people from whom the statement was taken were my co-accused.

MR DRAHT: Are you satisfied, sorry Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu, I refer you to page ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht, you may continue.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu, on page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 9(a)(iv) you have stated
"...on the day the IFP and ANC members were killed."
Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Would you please repeat the question.

MR DRAHT: In your statement paragraph 9(a)(iv) you mention that on the day IFP and ANC members were killed.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR DRAHT: What is the correct position?

MR NDLOVU: Only ANC members were injured, not IFP members.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu you also mentioned in that statement that you were arrested by the police in the morning after the incident.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: No, that is not the truth.

MR DRAHT: When were you arrested?

MR NDLOVU: I was arrested on the very same day of the incident, on Saturday, that was on the 12th in the evening.

MR DRAHT: Why do you think that this was written wrongly in your statement?

MR NDLOVU: According to my understanding, this says I was arrested on Sunday morning after the incident, and there is a confusion here because only my two co-accused were arrested the following day, that's what they wrote in their statement.  I think this is how this came into my statement.  Had they read the statement to me I would have disputed it.

MR DRAHT: Thanks.  Mr Ndlovu do you belong to a political party?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: What is your, what party?

MR NDLOVU: The IFP.

MR DRAHT: What is your position in the party?  What was your position in the party at the time of the incident?

MR NDLOVU: I was a follower.

MR DRAHT: What is the acts that you committed that you applied for amnesty for?

MR NDLOVU: I am seeking amnesty in connection with the injury of people in Zevenfontein.  As well as my being found in possession of a firearm.

MR DRAHT: What was the charges that you have been found guilty of?

MR NDLOVU: I was found guilty of murder and attempted murder, as well as being in possession of a firearm.

MR DRAHT: And did you plead guilty or not guilty when you were in Court?

MR NDLOVU: I did not plead guilty.

MR DRAHT: Why did you plead not guilty?

MR NDLOVU: It was difficult to plead guilty because all of my co-accused had pleaded not guilty, so that it wasn't easy for me to plead guilty.

MR DRAHT: Did you tell?  So you didn't tell the truth when you were in Court.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: Are you willing to tell the truth now?

MR NDLOVU: Very much so.

MR DRAHT: Can you please tell us what happened on the day of the incident in Zevenfontein.

MR NDLOVU: It was on a Saturday, in the afternoon, I cannot be sure what time it was, it could have been around five o'clock.  And I was at work on that very day, and when I came back from work I went straight to my shack.
	And as I was sitting in my shack one IFP member came to me, his name is Joseph Mkhize.  He did not knock, he just pushed the door and entered.  And when I enquired as to what was happening he just pushed the door and came in, and before he could respond I noticed that he was wearing his jersey right inside my shack.  And when I enquired as to what was happening, he informed me, he said to me, that I am sitting here whilst people are dying outside.  And when I enquired as to who were fighting, he informed me that the IFP and the ANC were fighting.  And I wanted to know the reason thereof, and he said, "...man there's no time for explanation, I am here, I wanted to put my jersey on, I am fleeing, I'm going to sleep across the Jukskei River."  And I then said to him, "...I am not staying behind, I am accompanying you to your girlfriend where you are going to spend your night."  I then put on my jacket and locked the door.  We then left.
	And a distance from my shack, at a distance from my shack I saw people, women who were carrying their babies on their backs, hurrying, and I could see where these women were going, and this group of women accumulated as the singing was going on.  And as I looked around there is one very big street that was the entry point into our area, and as I cast my eyes towards that point I saw a group of amabuto on that very same street.  These people were carrying knopkierries as well as spears.  They were chanting, and they were not standing still but they were moving downwards.  That is when I got a fright, because I, it now occurred to me that what he was saying is the truth.  And we swiftly took the downward direction with the intention of crossing the Jukskei River.  We could not cross the river became it was overflowing.
	We then went back and on our going back we could see the IFP members or group moving upwards.  We joined them and they had gone upwards at the time.  And after a while we arrived at Brown's shack, if I'm not mistaken.

MR DRAHT: Just a moment Mr Ndlovu.  Do you know why you walked up the steep?  Why were the group walking up the steep?

MR NDLOVU: As far as my conclusions are concerned their intention was to go and fight.

MR DRAHT: With whom did they want to go and fight?

MR NDLOVU: They were to meet the group that was coming from up, moving towards the downward direction.

MR DRAHT: And who was that group?  Who was that group?

MR NDLOVU: It was the ANC.

MR DRAHT: And you walked with them?  With the IFP people?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct, I walked up with the IFP group.

MR DRAHT: And were you armed at that stage?

MR NDLOVU: I was not armed at that time.

MR DRAHT: What happened then?  You walked up and then what happened?

MR NDLOVU: We arrived at Brown's shack, and we heard stones being thrown onto the roof of the shack, and as these stones were being thrown we also at the same time heard a gunshot or gunshots.

MR DRAHT: Sorry, by whom was the stones thrown?

MR NDLOVU: These stones came from the direction of the ANC.

MR DRAHT: And the shots, from which direction did that come?

MR NDLOVU: The shots as well.

MR DRAHT: Was it one shot or different shots?

MR NDLOVU: Several shots were fired.

MR DRAHT: From the ANC group?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: And what happened then?