Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

CHAIRPERSON: About the holding of the hair and bashing about two times?

MR MEYER: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Yes, he says he can't remember if that was done actually.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that it was Mr Ramaligela who took you by the hair and banged your head on the concrete floor?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Yes, your Honour, I remember specifically because to me, Mr Ramaligela was simply honouring a promise he had made to me a few days before.

MR MEYER: Mr Mahumela, when Ms Mtanga was cross-examining Mr Ramaligela, she made a statement or she put to Mr Ramaligela that you will come and testify that Mr Ramaligela is the person who tortured you the most.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: I have no personal recollection of how Ms Mtanga could have put it.  But I also don't know whether can rate torture.  To me, on that day I was tortured, as to who tortured me the most, I don't think I can tell, I think they were equally brutal and, the one would be in consensus with regard to what the other was doing from time to time.  So, to me, I was tortured by the whole group of them.

MR MEYER: Just for your information, Mr Chairman, it's contained on page 123 of the transcript of the evidence so far.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MEYER: I have nothing further, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer.  Mr Van Rensburg, do you have questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: You've got no questions?  Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you, Chairperson.  Could you tell me, in so far as Mr Netshivale is concerned, was there anything which he did to you which he did not disclose during the evidence?  It would appear to me as though he had disclosed what he had done to you unless I don't have my notes complete.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: I wouldn't say - I couldn't read any concealment but, I did note that he didn't make specific mention of the exercises that I was told to perform.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he personally tell you to perform exercises or was he just present when you were told to?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Yes, he did personally tell me to conduct exercises after the bleeding on my nose had stopped.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Nothing, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, indeed I have, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When you gave evidence as to which persons instructed you to do the physical exercises, you mentioned the names of quite a few persons but you did not mention the name of Mr Netshivale, isn't that correct?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: That is not correct.  I mentioned names with respect to the pulling of hair.  And indeed, in that regard Mr Netshivale didn't play a role.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And he also didn't play any role with regard to the jumping all over you which was done by the people that you mentioned in your evidence.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Correct, your Honour.  The trampling on my legs happened late that day.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: And Mr Netshivale, in my recollection was no longer in that room.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  So those were the exceptions where he didn't participate in any of the assaults that you were subjected to.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you recall exactly what exercises you were instructed to do by each and every person?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: I wouldn't say I remember exercises that I was told to perform by each person but, amongst the applicants, those who been started me to conduct exercises, I do remember.  But, as I told you the number was 22 and they participated to varying degrees, I wouldn't be able to give a recollection of the role of each and every single on of them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Am I then correct if I then deduct that you can also not remember exactly what exercise Mr Netshivale instructed you to do?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: That is incorrect.  If you remember well, I did tell you that there was a particular way in which I related to Mr Netshivale, we were both soccer rides(?).  And may I also mention that when I was told to do frog jumps, sometimes he would start off together with me, not only he, there were other people who were also soccer rides in the team and they would also perform with me to a certain extent and I would be instructed to continue alone after they stopped.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Mahumela, the question is what exercises did Mr Netshivale instruct you to do?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Yes, that's the question you had not asked.  Now that it is asked I will answer it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, please.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Mr Netshivale told me to stand upright, raise my hands up and I don't know what's the proper English, remember English came to us by ship, he told me to flicker if I may use that word.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) flex your hands?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Like this?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness just for personal record indicates holding his hands up, the flexing of his fingers by closing his hands to a fist and then opening them up as wide as he can stretch his fingers ...(intervention)

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: And all the time, my palms had to be above my head.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now, why didn't you give us this information when you gave evidence-in-chief?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: I thought that qualifies for a rigorous exercise.  And I remember mentioning rigorous exercise.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, and you mentioned what exercises, the frog jumps and the push against the wall and everything.  But you didn't mention this one, why not?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: I did mention 'and other exercises.'

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why didn't you mention this one, that's the question?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: I simply just didn't mention it.  No specific reason but it qualifies and falls under rigorous exercises in my definition.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I just have to put it to you that Mr Netshivale denies that he ever instructed you to do these exercises that you're now testifying about.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Well, he denies, I say he did.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, anything in re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: I mean any questions arising out of questions from the Panel?

MS MTANGA: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahumela, thank you.  That concludes your testimony.

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: Thank you, your Honour.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, Mr Mahumela was my last witness.  And this concludes my evidence from this side.  But I just want to refer the Committee to the statement that was mentioned by Rev Phoshwana.  And it's been indicated to me by other victims that they also did make such statements and, I have made a
 request to Cape Town to fax us the statements and I'm awaiting the fax from Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  I see now that it's about 16h40, I think this would be a convenient time for us to adjourn and then, if we can reconvene tomorrow for purposes of receiving submissions.

MR MEYER: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What would be a convenient time to start, 09h30?

MS MTANGA: 09h30 would be suitable for me, Chairperson.

MR MEYER: That's fine with me.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.