Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-03

UNKNOWN: No further questions, I would just like to make an appeal to Dr Steyn that if he can have a bit of a memory about the priorities at the time if he can send us such a short list, just to make sure that we thoroughly canvassed everything.

UNKNOWN: Chair, I'd gladly do that with the understanding that what you will get is the recollection of a retired man of 11 years ago.  I trust that you will understand.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take that into account.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: May I take the opportunity then to thank you for having come.  I don't even think the notice was sufficient, but you and your attorney found it possible to come.  It's a job that we're not enjoying doing, not only because of the circumstances, and the tragedy that accompanied these events, but also because we have to do it in circumstances where we've go all sorts of constraints, time constraints, capacity constraints, but there is a persistent cry from those who suffered great losses that an attempt must be again done in order to try and see if no further light can be thrown on this tragedy.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Chair, thank you, we - I certainly personally respect the work that you are doing, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You're welcome, Dr Steyn.  Ms Terreblanche?
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: I was hoping before lunch to call Mr Peyaga's client, Mr Richard Steyl.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we - is lunch ready?

UNKNOWN: I don't believe so, we have not been informed, I can have a look, but we do have two more witnesses that have time constraints and, but I can check quickly if lunch is ready.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to propose that we take lunch now, but we come back at 13h30/13h45.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused, thank you.

UNKNOWN: But we must just establish if lunch is there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll adjourn for one minute for you to do what you have to do.
 We will now adjourn and Ms Terreblanche, you must make sure that our guests are called to lunch and until 13h30 or such time, or so soon thereafter as it becomes necessary.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: This is a resumption of a section 29 process, an investigative enquiry held in terms of section 29 of the promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, 34 of 1995.  I have already welcomed your legal representative, Mr Steyl, but I welcome him now formally as your legal representative and I will ask you to place yourself on the record.

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: I am Richard David Steyl from Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Peyaga, if you could place yourself on the record.

MR PEYAGA: My name is Elias Machodi Peyaga and I'm representing Mr Steyl.  Mr Steyl would prefer to give his testimony in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steyl I have to swear you in, so if you will stand, thank you.

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: There is a facility, you have it in your hands, I'm sure Afrikaans is on channel 1 and I'm sure even as I speak you will be hearing the Afrikaans translation getting into your ears, do you hear it.

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Not yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you hear anything?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes, thank you, I can hear now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay so it appears that the Afrikaans is on channel 2, well, I don't know, both English and Afrikaans are on channel 2, the engineers must please put us on track.  I want to make sure that the Afrikaans version is getting through.

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  The witness has been sworn in.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Welcome Mr Steyl, Mr Peyaga.  Mr Steyl thank you for coming here, we've called you here with a very broad outline to answer questions about procurement during 1980's.  Can you just tell us a little bit about your career in Armscor.

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Honourable Chairperson, I joined Armscor in 1978 and the first three or four years I did administrative duties in the foreign trade department of Armscor, and in 1981 I became involved in the shipping section of Armscor and this responsibility I kept throughout my career there, up to the present day.  So, to sum up, my duties were foreign trade and the specific responsibility of shipping services, and the shipping services included the importation of goods and also exportation of goods, that is procurement, foreign procurement.

UNKNOWN: During 1987 when the unfortunate Helderberg disaster took place you were involved in shipping?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any knowledge of any Armscor device or devices which were carried by means of passenger liners or passenger planes or by means of civil aviation methods?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: I'd like to answer you as follows, the imports, as far as imports were concerned, our department in Armscor only did the customs clearance, in other words we did place cargo on board of planes or ships, but as soon as the cargo arrived in Cape Town Harbour or Durban Harbour, we would then do the necessary customs clearance.  These clearances were done as follows, importers with the Armscor departments or Armscor contractors or Armscor subsidiaries, if they had cargo on board a plane or a ship, they would give us the instruction that the cargo would be arriving on a specific flight or a specific ship and that we had to make arrangements for the necessary customs clearance and we would have to take charge of the domestic supply.
 Now the answer your question, when the Helderberg disaster took place, our department had had no request to clear any cargo on board the Helderberg.  We monitored the situation, because I had received instruction from my superiors to ascertain whether there had been such cargo on board and we monitored it for weeks afterwards to find out whether there had been any loading bill document which could perhaps confirm that there was cargo on board the Helderberg, no such document emerged or there was not such request, that's why I told you I did not have any knowledge of any cargo on board Helderberg and it is also our policy and our view that we would comply with all the IATA rules and that if there had been cargo on board the plane, it would have been permissible cargo and not non-permissible cargo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you for that answer, I would like to find out more specifically, were you aware of any circumstances where Armscor made use of civil aviation either as a result of sanctions busting or on a basis or urgency, are you aware of any cargo which entered the country by means of a civil aviation plane which fell into the dangerous category?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: No, definitely not, I'm not aware of any cargo which was unlawfully placed on a civil passenger plane.  A lot of cargo came in and 99% of these consignments which came in consisted of normal commercial cargo, whether spare parts, electronic equipment or whatever, which had no connection with explosives or ammunition.  If it was allowed and allowed to be loaded in terms of IATA rules we would have given that permission, we would never have given permission for loading stuff outside of the IATA rules.

UNKNOWN: But you worked for a specific department, and you say that other Armscor departments usually asked that things be loaded?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: So who did the actual shipping?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: No, let me correct that, they didn't ask the permission, we did the clearance, in other words, if contractors or subsidiaries of Armscor loaded cargo on planes or ships, I didn't know about it until the cargo actually arrived.

MS PATTA: Are you happy that the affilliators of Armscor was in all ways above board in terms of what you required and the way that things should have been shipped?