Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-16

MR MAPOMA: Is there any person amongst the three of you who was in charge of this robbery "operation"?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I was in charge.

MR MAPOMA: Did you tell them what the purpose of that robbery was?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, I did inform them.  What I informed them was that we were ordered to go and rob that vehicle, in fact I even informed that I had received other instructions to go and rob a police station, which instructions I had refused because it was easier to rob people who were not armed, than those who were armed at the police station.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

UNKNOWN: This war between the ANC and the IFP, did you know what it was about?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I would just explain on what I observed.  There was a Disciplinary Board in the are that used to handle whatever crimes and misdemeanours that happened in the community.  As time went on this committee was labelled as belonging to one political organisation and then people became divided into two.  Then there were also demarcations of the area that we made, such that other areas became no-go zones and that is how the whole thing started.

UNKNOWN: This was not - as you understand it, are you trying to say that this was not a war caused by differences between the two organisations, on issues of policy?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Before there was no political organisations, but as time progressed and political organisations became known in the area, when people went to that disciplinary structure they became labelled as either belonging to this or the other organisation.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware if there were perhaps any differences between the organisation?  As you understood the policies of the organisation, were there any differences policy-wise between the two organisations, that you are aware of?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Please repeat that question.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware of any differences between the two organisations, that is the ANC and the IFP, by way of policy? - if any.

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Although I cannot claim to know it fully, but I was aware that there was a difference of opinion because the war started by the difference of opinion.

UNKNOWN: What was the policy of your organisation, the ANC, as you understood it?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: What are you referring to?

UNKNOWN: Do you know if the ANC had any policy as to how it would pursue it's political struggle?  You were a member of the ANC, not so?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: The objective of the ANC was to fight for democracy and for the rights of everyone in the country.

UNKNOWN: How did the ANC intend to go about fighting for that?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Amongst others it was against the expectation of the community.  The ANC regarded such a ...(indistinct) as being inhuman.

UNKNOWN: Let us move on to the incident in question.  When did you become aware for the first time that this robbery was to be carried out at this place?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: The incident happened on the 28th of February, but I had known a long while before then.  I would say before December 1991, I knew about it.  What happened was the violence would erupt and it would sort of die down and it was start up again and Mr Nzimande would keep on raising this idea and eventually we carried it out.

UNKNOWN: Where were you when you became aware for the first time that the attack was to be carried out at the company.

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I was in eZakheni at C1.

UNKNOWN: With whom were you?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I would be with Mr Nzimande although others would be present, whose names I cannot really recall.

UNKNOWN: Was Ntjali there?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No.

UNKNOWN: It was just yourself and Mr Nzimande, you don't remember who else was there?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: What I know is that the people who were around were not concerned with our discussion.  He addressed himself directly to me with regards to the robbery but there were others who were present but they were not involved in the discussion.

UNKNOWN: At a stage did Mr Ntjali and Zulu  get to know about this and that they had to be involved?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: If I'm not mistaken, they knew around December 1991 that we had to carry out the robbery.  Mr Nzimande would inform me that because the war was continuing we would need to carry out the robbery and eventually it happened.

UNKNOWN: I don't follow you very clearly.  How did they get to know?  Did someone approach them?  Who was that?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I informed them.

UNKNOWN: Why did you approach them?  Did Mr Nzimande say you should approach them?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Mr Nzimande had given me the authority to recruit two people that I could use or work with, so I identified the two of them as the people that I could work with.

UNKNOWN: What was their reaction when you approached them for the first time?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: They had not expected it, so they were a little surprised, but I realised that at the time it was difficult for a person to express a different opinion after he had been given an order or something like that, so I cannot say that they were happy about that.

ADV BOSMAN: Did I not understand you to say that they were members of the SDU?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: They were members of the SDU.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you have to recruit them?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: The Commander had said I could choose people that I could work with, so when I thought about it, I felt that I could trust them, so that is how I got to choose the two of them.

ADV BOSMAN: For what reason particularly, apart from the trust, did you choose them?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I just felt that when we go out to carry out the task, there would be capable to carry it out effectively, not that I knew something about them before to that effect.

ADV BOSMAN: You say they were surprised when you approached them, can you explain that?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I meant they did not show excitement or show that they were happy because when you discuss matters of that nature, it involves certain risks and danger, so I did realise that they were not very happy or maybe they wanted to say something but they did not express that to me.

UNKNOWN: Had they not been involved in an incident similar to the one you wanted them to participate in?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No, I did not have any knowledge of any prior incident.

UNKNOWN: Do you say they were concerned about some dangers, did you say they were concerned that this could be a dangerous exercise to go and carry out this robbery?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I am trying to create a picture of what could have gone through their minds at the time.  When I informed them about the act, they did not really show any excitement.  For instance, if you give somebody a present, they show their gratitude by being excited, so when I told them, they did listen to me and I could see that there was something they felt or thought, but they didn't express that to me.

UNKNOWN: In other words, they were not enthusiastic about what you wanted them to be involved in?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No, they did not show any enthusiasm.

UNKNOWN: You still continued to get them involved in this attempted robbery?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you enter into any discussions with them as to how exactly you're going to carry out this robbery?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Well, I relayed the same information that had been given to me as to how we were going to proceed.

UNKNOWN: What was the plan?  How were you going to proceed?