Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-18

CHAIRPERSON: But what about the submission made in this respect by Mr du Plessis?  They were members of Brixton, they were policemen in the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad, things weren't going too well there for some of them, and then somebody comes along and says: "Look, what about a career switch, better deal, better salary, BMW motorcar, opportunity to start your own business, a far better deal package-wise"?  At that stage, at that time of the approach they don't know it's a hit squad or whatever that's moving in to assist the CCB, wouldn't most young men be tempted to join them and go and say: "Okay, well that's good, I've got a problem where I'm working, I've got hassles, I've got a much better deal, I'll go across"?  They don't know exactly what they're going into, that it's ... and then it only comes later once they've made the commitment?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well if they were impressionable young men and lacking of experience, there may have been something in their argument.  We are dealing with a Colonel in the Police, Col Burger.  We are dealing with experienced officers.  We must also take Van Zyl as an example, and we do quote it here, that what happened to his patriotism once his business really thrived?  Can't we look back what his predominant motive must have been when he actually joined it?  And then also, but we will check the record overnight, we do not think that they joined in ignorance.  One doesn't make a career change without asking what does it involve on the probabilities.  I would submit that on the evidence as a whole, but we will look for definite passages overnight, that it is an oversimplification that they didn't know what they were letting themselves in for.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the argument that what is most important is that the act must be associated with a political objective, rather than the subjective political views of the perpetrator?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we will deal with that, Mr Chairman, because what we are - may I ask you that whenver you read this argument and you see "political offence", will you please read "an act associated with a political objective", and this is really ... and that has got to come within the four corners of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I remember the words at one of the hearings of one of the askaris, saying that when he was a member of the ANC, of the MK, he was a soldier with a conscience and then when he was turned and was an askari, he was a soldier without a conscience.  So that doesn't mean when he was performing acts as an askari, because his political beliefs weren't all that relevant, what was relevant was that he was doing acts associated with a political objective.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will deal with the position of the askari.  And you know Mr Chairman, what I want to foreshadow is that we must be careful not to bring other facts into the equation in order to interpret this.  First of all, it presupposes that there were no other factors distinguishing it.  Secondly, that the decision was correct.  Thirdly, that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I think that the askari situation may well be distinguishable to these persons, because I believe that a person who had certain political beliefs and he was prepared to do things for the ANC, he is then caught, he is then taken into a form of detention, not like the one that Mr van Zyl was taken into, and he is made to turn, he has no options and he's not given a salary ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not trying to equate the two, I'm just using them as an example of somebody performing an act where his subjective political views might - he might not have done it if he ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Well it depends, because there are three things as we say in this argument, there is motive, context and proportionality, those are the things.  And the position of the askari who really burnt his bridges when he left a country, to a certain extent, but built the bridges and blew up the roadways once he has turned over, that his motivation, his circumstances are quite different to the situation of the people at Brixton Murder and Robbery turning over, in order to gain the benefits that they have.  So that we submit that - and we will develop this argument when we deal with the requirements of motive, circumstance and proportionality.
	But may I say, Mr Chairman - and I will develop the argument, but this business about applying the Act in such a generous way that the rights of victims disappear, is contrary to the spirit of the Judgment of the Deputy-President of the Constitutional Court, Mohammed, it's contrary to the provisions of the Act.
	And I also, Mr Chairman, and with due respect, the argument is often made that there must be parity, the Afrikaners, and it was said here this afternoon, must not feel that they are misunderstood by those who argue cases against them or even possibly by those entrusted with the duty of granting it.  Mr Chairman, you are administering an Act which has provisions, you are not there, with the greatest of respect, to make presents or because someone else has received amnesty, that they are entitled to amnesty.  
	And also this introduction of the Indemnity Acts, Mr Chairman, there is some misconception in relation to their effect.  They didn't deal with amnesty, they dealt with indemnity.  And what happened was - I believe that there is a difference between the grant of indemnity as an executive act by the President, who was then President de Klerk, where we had a simultaneous announcement that Mr McBride and Strydom, that was an executive trade-off, Mr Chairman.  Your function is quite different.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's known, the amnesty that we're dealing with in terms of this Act is unique, it's the first time anywhere in the world that amnesty of this nature has been granted, where people have to come forward, have to apply, we've got to consider the facts and the effect of the amnesty is also different, it's wider and we're taking away civil rights from people, etcetera.  So it's a very unique ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: What I am saying is that this argument that the left and the right must be equally treated, yes we agree, but not as a political trade-off as was done in the McBride and Strydom ...  It may well be argued that neither of them would have got amnesty under this Act, but because there is an application pending, I don't want to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, just a matter of fact, those were not indemnities, they were given under the State President's powers.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Indemnity Act.

MR LAX: No, no, it wasn't under the Indemnity Act at all, it was simply an act of political grace, so to speak.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) those two ...(indistinct) of the presidential ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) you've got different types of indemnity.  You've got those indemnities that apply to all sorts, category of persons who had left the country and others that came ...(intervention)