Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So by blowing up the building of the SABC where all the TV cameras are, that would also have shown how powerful you are.

MR LE ROUX: Our target was not the SABC.

MR LANDMAN: Do you regret the fact that white people were killed in these bombings?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, are you a member of any right-wing church such as the Israelites?

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon?

MR LANDMAN: Are you a member of the Israelites?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, I'm not a member.

MR LANDMAN: Are you a supporter of that church?

MR LE ROUX: I read a lot of there literature, some of them.

MR LANDMAN: What is the attitude of the Israelites towards black people, do they have souls?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Is there anything objectionable about black people according to the Israelite religion?

MR LE ROUX: No, Mr Chairperson.  It is a nation which was created next to other nations, just as the Boerevolk was created.

MR LANDMAN: And are these: "volke" equal, do they have equal status?

MR LE ROUX: The Israel group are the chosen group.

MR LANDMAN: Do you consider yourself to be part of the: "uitgekore" volk?

MR LE ROUX: I believe so yes, just as the Jew believes that he's the chosen nation.

MR LANDMAN: Now, in a newspaper article there's reference to an incident which occurred at the World Trade Centre, do you remember that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Where the AWB invaded the talks about the
settlement in this country?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: One of the banners read: "1 Boer, 10 Kaffirs", do you remember that?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Do you agree with those sentiments?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it so Mr le Roux, that in the Germiston bombing you targeted a black taxi rank?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it so Mr le Roux, that your chief target during this bombing campaign was to injure and kill black people?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it so that the Bree Street are where you bombed was also a place which is predominantly occupied by black people?

MR LE ROUX: There were white people as well Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But there were more black people there than whites, isn't that so?  You know that?

MR LE ROUX: That's possible Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Well do you know it or don't you know it?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know but it's possible.

MR LANDMAN: Wasn't this bombing campaigning simply a last ditch attempt by people like yourself who couldn't face the fact of having a non-racial society and this was your last attempt to show your anger and hatred towards black people by bombing them?

MR LE ROUX: No, white people also died in the explosions.

MR LANDMAN: You didn't intend that to happen did you?

MR LE ROUX: We didn't target and race group.

MR LANDMAN: If I can just refer to your application and ask you to turn to page 65 of that bundle.  Mr le Roux it's not that one.  It should be page 12 of that, paragraph 37.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, this Volkstaat for which had the struggle, people who were previously classified black, would they have been welcome in this Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Did you welcome?

CHAIRPERSON: Could they have lived there if they wanted to?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I'm not a racist.  I believe nations move in certain directions and our purpose was self-determination.  At that stage just before the election, I think I had about eight black people who worked with me and I got along with them very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not speak of people who worked with you, I'm speaking of people who wanted to go and live there.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the black nation and the Boer nation also got along.  There were certain racist incidents, it always happens but that they would have been welcome yes, definitely Chairperson.  You cannot have such great movements, it was something that I couldn't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: What would the basis of the Boerevolkstaat have been?

MR LE ROUX: That the Boers would govern themselves in that area, the Afrikaner Boer.

CHAIRPERSON: And what would have happened to the black people who lived there?  Would he would have been ...[indistinct]

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I think - this is my idea and was the general idea of the AWB at that stage, is that the right to self-determination should be granted to each nation and the same would be in any Volkstaat which came into existence.

MR MALAN: Mr le Roux, if I understand the question correctly it is, if black people in your Volkstaat, would they have had any political rights, would they have been able to take part?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, not at all but they would have had the right to self-determination.

MR MALAN: But in another area outside of the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: In an area which they wanted.

MR MALAN: But not in an area in the Volkstaat.

MR LE ROUX: If it was an area which they could have claimed, I'm talking about Western Transvaal Volkstaat, it was quite a quick thing that happened but we look at the Transvaal in a broader light there's Venda, there's Boputhatswana.

MR MALAN: No, let me reformulate my question then.  I just want to make sure, and this is the question, that where there was a Boerevolkstaat as you explained, there black people would not have had any political rights?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.  They would have had the right of self-determination if they insisted on it.

MR MALAN: You're making it difficult for us.  If you say the right to self-determination, if I understand you correctly their right to self-determination would have been in other areas and not in the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But in the Volkstaat they would not have had any political right, is that what you're saying?

MR LE ROUX: If this would have been the Volkstaat and they wanted a piece of that land and they had the claim to want it then they could have governed themselves.

MR MALAN: Yes, but then it wouldn't have been part of the Volkstaat anymore?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it would have been part of their own area where they could govern themselves.

MR MALAN: So as far as the area of the Volkstaat is concerned no-one else would have had rights except the Boers?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, there was an ethnic basis on which it was founded.

ADV BOSMAN: Can we take it just a little bit further in order to obtain complete clarity.  Black people would not have had political rights there but in order to posses ground doesn't really refer to political rights, that is more as far a voting is concerned.  These black people could they have bought ground there?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, it's not possible.  The AWB's principles which I believe in is ...[indistinct] and it comes down to any other one except an Afrikaner Boer would have those rights.  No one else would have them in that state except the Afrikaner Boer.  If it was an Englishman or whatever, it doesn't matter if he's black or English or whatever, I do not discriminate against that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, is it correct that to be a member of the AWB you have to be a white South African citizen, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, you have to a white person and a Christian.

MR LANDMAN: So this organisation was racist in that sense, that black people were not allowed to join the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, it was the nations, how they were formed through the years, that was the principle behind it.  That was how the AWB saw things.

MR LANDMAN: Just turn to page 7 of the bundle.  The other one Mr le Roux, page 7.  That's a application for membership of the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Is it correct that right at the bottom just above where one must sign, that the person has to confirm that he is a white or that he or she is a white South African citizen, is that correct?