Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

MS KHUTWANE: I was just alone at the back of the hippo and they were just driving - it was pitch dark outside.  They alighted the hippo and then they came to take me out of the hippo.  One of them said to me can I see what I have put myself in, and then they asked me when did I last sleep with a man.  I was so embarrassed by this question.  And I felt so humiliated - I informed them that I have nobody - I didn't have a partner and then they asked me with whom am I staying.  I informed them that I was with my family.
 The other question that they asked me is how do I feel when they - when I am having intercourse with  a man.  This was too much for me because they were repeating it time and again, asking me the same question, asking me what do I like with the intercourse do I like the size of the penis or what do I enjoy most. 
 So the other one was just putting his hand inside me through the vagina, I was crying because I was afraid that we have heard that the soldiers are very notorious of raping people.  This one continued putting his say finger right through me, he kept on penetrating and I was asking for forgiveness and I was asking them what have I done, I am old enough to be your mother.  But why are you treating me like this - this was very-very embarrassing.
 At the end one of them I think maybe God just came inside them and the other one said let's - let her go, and then at the end they took me back to this police station and then they locked me up in the cell again.  When I got inside there, I could see that there was one person inside the cell, I was afraid because this person was also - looked as if he is a male also, I was not trusting anybody now, I was suspicious of anything that was moving around.
 So I kept quite and I was just shivering with fear, so at the time I could see that as the dawn was breaking I could see that oh! it was a female.  At the end they came to fetch her and I was alone - I  was expecting to be taken to the Magistrate's office, but this never happened to me.  Again in the evening, I could feel that the lice were just moving about my body and somebody came in - two male -white males came in -when I looked them I didn't know, I have never seen them before.  I was already deep in sleep and then I woke up.  They told me to follow them - I was taken to other - two separate rooms which were far away from my cell.
 I got into one of the offices and then I was ordered to sit, they took out their guns and those were put on the table.  They asked if I knew them - I said no I didn't know you.  One of them introduced himself as Jack,  and I didn't believe that they were giving me their correct names.  The other one said they are officers from the special branch and they wanted the  truth from me.  They asked me about what was happening in the location - I repeated the same  story and gave them the same detail that I have given them during the day.  They were very angry towards me - and they didn't believe what I was saying.  They associated me with  everything what was happening in the location.  So they informed me that they won't kajol me and they will just whatever that will bring truth out of me.
 They insisted that I was lying - each time they interrogated me whatever response I gave them, they never believed it.  I was wondering what they expect me to say because anything that I said, was incredible to them.  One of them took the bullets out of his own pocket, there were about nine of them - they forced me to speak - I just kept quite because I didn't know what to say.
 He take his gun and beat me on the head - keep on beating me, asking whether am I willing to say something or not - and he kept on doing the same thing.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Excuse me mamma Khutwane - we would like to know what did these people exactly want to  find out from you - was it - was it guns or petrol bombs?

MS KHUTWANE: I am still saying my story because they were saying we blacks are holding meetings with white people in the location and yet there was a white man known as Bloch, we use to come during nights and hold meeting with us - and they said the white men are just giving us wrong information and they said the whites will overthrow the Government we don't end of Tape 3, Side B ...

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: [indistinct] I want to know and want to identify the situation that you were while these people detained you.  You have given us the - the other way that they treated you during that period and we got what you are trying to say and the way they treated you while you were in the van.
 I believe there was also someone who treated you the -who treated you the same way while you were in the van.  Does it ever happened while you were living something like - something so of like that.  As I was sitting - I sitting there listening I couldn't take it -because our mothers are just the same age as yours and yet where there are people who can just couldn't respect you - dishonour you as little as those who were.
 I just had the feeling that you - you could be my mother that's where the pain is.  We would like you to tell us how - how were you feeling that time.

MS KHUTWANE: It was so painful because I couldn't stand it, because these kids were young and they were still at a very age they had all the powers to respect and honour me.  They were just the same age as my children and what were they doing to me.
 I could think maybe they thought that I was just a black person who is out of his mind - I mean out of the minds - not knowing anything.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes its like that, because like the one who slapped you hardly on your face he was also a youngster.  So I think they dishonour you, humiliating you, lower your dignity as much as they can.  We would like to come to an end of this so that my colleagues could come - could ask you some questions, I would like to know how many kids do you have.

MS KHUTWANE: I have got four children.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: How old are they?

MS KHUTWANE: They are old enough - they are very old - some of them have own houses.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And you also own a house.

MS KHUTWANE: Yes I had one, but unfortunately I divorced my husband.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am just saying that you are also a mother.

MS KHUTWANE: Yes I am a mother.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Is because I am imagining the way this children, this policeman had treated you.  I had a picture in mind looking at the way they were treating you - even the people - the community people what were they feeling then.  I was wondering - I am wondering what was on your mind by the time they were moving with you in the van right around the location.

MS KHUTWANE: I thought that as I was one of the ANC members they wanted me to withdraw from the ANC not to hold meetings again because I would know what will be the treatment I will get, even now - Niewoudt by the day I was in the police cell they tried to suffocate me with a towel and he sat - he sat on my chest.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Is that Niewoudt?