Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It was plus/minus 200 metres.

ADV DE JAGER: Two hundred metres?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, plus/minus there.
	So as he couldn't get into the bakkie, by that time he was sitting on the ground.  I then reversed the bakkie on a heap like, so that he can get into the bakkie on his own.  And after that they then started shaking our hands.

UNKNOWN: Why were they shaking your hands?  Do you know?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I don't know why, but they shake, all of them started shaking our hands and say that we can go now.

UNKNOWN: And then you left?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, we left.

UNKNOWN: That is yourself and Julius.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's me and Julius.

UNKNOWN: And then you dropped Julius at his place?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I dropped Julius in Nsomelo, where he was staying and then I went back to my flat in Hillbrow.  And on that particular night I couldn't sleep anywhere, maybe I start having some bad feelings or maybe some nightmares. I could see that something has happened to that guy, or maybe it was because of what I have just seen during the day. And the following morning I decided to fill up my car with petrol at a certain garage at Hillbrow, by the name of Get-Set.  On arrival there as I was well-known to those petrol attendants, one old man then asked me what type of company are you working, where you are working with dead bodies.  Then there was a big knock. I mean, I started becoming worried now.  What does he mean when he says you are supposed to be working with money, transporting money, but now we are transporting dead bodies.  Then I asked him, I was very scared by that time, I say did you saw me transporting the dead bodies. He said no, some of the White guys you are working with them, I saw them here last night driving a Nissan one-tonner bakkie, white in colour, inside the bakkie at the back there was a dead body there of a Black man.  And he further told me that he asked them what are they doing with these dead bodies, is the man dead?  They said yes.  And then he asked them what happened, what are you doing with his body at the back of your bakkie?  He said no, we are transporting him to Pietersburg. In other words, they were transporting the deceased from somewhere else, maybe from the mortuary or whatever to his home in Pietersburg.  And he said after that they left.
	Then from the filling station I was now nervous, I was worried. I went direct to the office.  On arrival at the office, the first person I met, it was Frans Oosthuisen.  He then said in Afrikaans "moenie worry nie, ons het hom geblaai". You must make sure that you go and see Mr Gerber in his office, he wanted to see you. So I then went straight to Mr Gerber's office.  Then he further also told us don't worry, we are finished with him, and should there be any questions, I mean, that is what he started instructing me now, what I must tell other people; should there be anybody enquiring about the whereabouts of Samuel Kanaga, I must tell them that I dropped Samuel Kanaga in 5 Avenue, 5 in Berea.

UNKNOWN: Is that where Samuel Kanaga stays?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: In that vicinity. In other words he is not far from where he stays.

UNKNOWN: Yesterday Mr Gerber testified to the fact that yourself and Julius Khosa volunteered that information, that you are prepared to do this.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I deny that allegation.

UNKNOWN: And then at the same time then Julius then entered the office, because he also, I am sure he had the information that Mr Gerber wanted to see us the first thing, before we can start moving around, maybe some of the staff seeing us, and asking us some further questions.  Then he instructed that should anybody ask us we must just give them that same statement that we dropped Samuel Kanaga at 5 Avenue in Berea and he was further supposed to report by the security department the following morning for further investigation.  And also, should they wanted to know further he must tell them that he did took us to Hammanskraal and also in KwaThema in Springs and Daveyton.

HASSAN MALL: That Samuel took them?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Took us.

UNKNOWN: In other words you must tell the version that Samuel Kanaga took you, that is the investigating team to Hammanskraal, to Daveyton and showed you certain places.  Is that what you were told to say?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly.  In other words, he wanted to fabricate to make the whole case as it maybe it is a real case, because at those certain areas I have just mentioned, in the robbery, this R3,5 million robbery, one of the guys who was shot, apparently by a ricochet bullet inside that Fidelity Guards truck, he was staying in Diepkloof. So his friends, according to the information we had maybe from the informers, the guards who used to operate with them, some of them there was from Hammanskraal, and some of them they were from Daveyton and some in KwaThema.  So he is supposed to make that whole, in other words, he has got connect Samuel Kanaga with that case.

UNKNOWN: With the robbers.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: And also the suspect, so that at the end of the day if even the police come and look at the whole thing, they must believe it.  Which means that maybe because he disappeared, then at the end of the day it was going to be maybe the same robbers that were maybe, that did get rid of him or maybe or he ran away because he was scared.

UNKNOWN: And then you started telling this story to whoever put questions to you about Samuel Kanaga?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, before that day, the first day, the same day, we started now going to pin-point those areas, because we cannot just tell them, tell people without pin-pointing those addresses.

UNKNOWN: You actually went to the places?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly. Then in order to pin-point those certain houses or maybe that certain areas, to make ... (intervention).

HASSAN MALL: Were you taken?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, me and Julius we went with our own car, as it was part of our duty. So and after that we came back.  There was also some - some of the Fidelity Guards staff started complaining. In other words, maybe by the time we are out during the day, they wanted to know the whereabouts of Samuel Kanaga.  So they as we arrive at the office in the afternoon, they wanted to know the whereabouts of Samuel, and I start feeling bad inside, because I have got to start lying to now, because they used to trust me, they liked me, but now I have got to lie.  You know, to save myself or maybe also the other staff of the security department. So and then during that time, on that same morning, because Brig van Wyk was on leave, Mr Gerber further told me and Julius that should anybody - Brig Van Wyk comes back and he wanted to know what happened, we must not worry. In other words, we can give him the wrong information, meanwhile he is going to tell him the truth what happened. Which means the wrong information are going to give Brig Van Wyk, only for black and white, for the paper, for the statement, but meanwhile the other side Brig Van Wyk will be knowing that no, we are telling a blue lie.  Apparently after, I am sure after some few days, Brig Van Wyk then came back, he then called me to his office, where we were asked to make a statement.  Before we can do that, Mr Gerber further then called us saying that you must remember what I have just told you, don't worry, everything has been sorted out, which means he has already told Brig van Wyk.  Then we then proceeded to Brig Van Wyk, each and everyone of us, me and Julius to make sworn statements.  Later during the course of the day I am shown that the statement has been typed.  They say that we must take that envelope to the SAP, Hillbrow.
	After some few months, I am sure apparently maybe, plus/minus maybe three months  ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry, when did Mr Van Wyk return to the office?