Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR VISSER: His statement of evidence is before you. Exhibit F is the next exhibit number.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Yes, it's E.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you have given evidence before other Amnesty Committees before, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you incorporate that evidence also in your evidence today as well as the contents of Exhibit A which you have previously confirmed as falling within your knowledge and that you wish to include in your evidence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I do, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application here is referred to as the Ndaba bundle, it's a mistake on my part.  It's the Khubeka bundle, which will be bundle 1, pages 54 to 65.  So you confirm your application form and the contents thereof as well?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I do, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Please address the Committee and tell the Committee what you recall about what the facts are and your participation in this event, from page 2 paragraph 1 onwards.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, during 1987 I was a sergeant in the Security Branch, Port Natal, serving under the command of General Steyn.  Col Taylor was at the time the senior officer in the Terrorist Unit and Col Botha was my immediate Commander.
	During approximately May 1987, while a Vlakplaas unit was in Durban, penetration was done by members of Vlakplaas, i.e. Simon Radebe and two askaris, Jimmy Mbane and Dube.

MR VISSER: Mr Dube is since deceased, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.  At the time the Security Branch of Port Natal possessed of information that Nthombi Khubeka was assisting trained terrorists.  I was informed that Mbane had befriended her and that her mission, correction, that his mission was to establish where the terrorists were hiding and where their arms had been stored.
	On a particular afternoon Mbane was supposed to have brought one or two, brought one or more of the terrorist to a pre-arranged spot where they would then be arrested.  I did not attend the proposed arrest.  As it turned out, I was told that there were no terrorists in the car with which Mbane arrived and that only Khubeka was then taken.  	She was transferred to the shooting range at Winkelspruit where we had a base and where the Vlakplaas unit was accommodated.  There she was interrogated and assaulted, not seriously, by Col Taylor.

MR VISSER: Were you present during the interrogation and these assaults?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Some of them, yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell the Committee, were you present at all times since she arrived there, or what was the position?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I entered the room of interrogation periodically.  I was present from time to time during the interrogation.

MR VISSER: Were you busy with other matters?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: Alright.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: She was interrogated in order to find out the whereabouts of the terrorists which Mbane told us about.  I was present from time to time during the interrogation which I estimate lasted for about an hour.  I was informed by Col Taylor that Khubeka suddenly died during the interrogation, apparently of a heart attack.  I was not present when this occurred.
	Col Taylor then decided that her death must not be reported and du Preez and myself were ordered by him to dispose of the body at a place where it could be found.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez gave evidence that there was a meeting where you and he were present and Mr Taylor and Mr Botha were there and some discussion took place between them, can you recall any such meeting?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was a very brief meeting, more of a directive and we were given that specific order.

MR VISSER: And you recall that Col Taylor gave the order?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Col Taylor gave the order himself.

MR VISSER: And what was the order?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The order was to dispose of the body nearby, near enough to the house where it could be found.

MR VISSER: Alright.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We then placed the body in a field near, next to the Inanda Road, in the area of Bambayi, that's where we left her.  I am informed that it is now alleged that the body was found with a bullet hole in the head. I am certain that this is not the body or the remains of Nthombi Khubeka as I know that her body suffered no bullet wound.
	In doing what I did, I executed my duties as a policeman the way I saw it as an obligation during the time of conflict and political violence.  We were conditioned by speeches of politicians and directions by our senior officers to do everything in our power to confront the revolutionary onslaught at all costs.  There were times when in terms of the prevailing legislation of the times, it was not possible to solve all the problems that came one's way.  The present case is perhaps an example of such an instance.
	If it had become public knowledge that Khubeka had died whilst being interrogated by the Security Police, it would have caused big embarrassment.  I was of the bona fide belief that what I did in the present instance, in order to combat or derail the revolutionary onslaught and to protect the government and National Party and the S A P from political embarrassment, fell within my express or implied authority.  I did not participate in the events for any personal gain or driven by personal spite or malice and I received no reward.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you request amnesty in the terms which will be addressed to the Committee in argument and which you've already set out at page 1, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Nel do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one please.

MR NEL: Mr Wasserman, Mr Mbane alleges in his statement which is also found in the bundle and I'm sure you've heard this, he alleges that the deceased's body was taken out of the room by one Myeza, yourself and a Coetzer.  Now I represent also Mr Myeza, is this correct, or is that not correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's incorrect, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Was he not there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was not present, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Thank you Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nel.  Mr van der Merwe do you have any questions?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one or two.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Wasserman, can you confirm for me that Mr Baker's involvement, that he was not involved at all with this operation?  he was never part of the operation as such that occurred on that specific day.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was not involved in the operation to the best of my knowledge, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER MERWE: He was, however, present at the base where Nthombi Khubeka was interrogated.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, he was present.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Can you confirm for me that he was not part of the interrogation team?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was not part of the interrogation team.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much.  No further question.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Merwe.  Ms Botha do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MS BOTHA: Mr Wasserman, you were not present during the...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat what you said.

MS BOTHA: Mr Wasserman, you were not yourself involved in the arrest at Battery Beach?  For which reason were you at Winkelspruit?  Was there an instruction to be there, or were you just usually there?