Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, general motivation on page 74 
to page - top of page 81, do you confirm the correctness of 
that?  On page 81, the second paragraph, you explain the 
political motivation.  Can you just read that for us, 
please, the motive.

UNKNOWN: The motive in which I acted was in the 
execution of my orders. It was also for the protection of 
innocent people and elimination of activists.  This was 
necessary in the light of the war that was raging then.  
This incident happened during the political unrest during 
that period.  The whole land was burning. There were all 
sorts of problems, arson and other crimes that were 
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UNKNOWN: 84

UNKNOWN: committed in the name of the liberation movements against 
the State and the destabilisation of the State.

UNKNOWN: The next page, page 82 at the top.

UNKNOWN: The aim was as explained above, because 
liberation movements acted against the State and to resist 
their actions of overthrowing the State.  It was also 
against activists.  It would frighten them to act actively. 
I also at all times acted under the command of De Kock.  As 
I have already said, Capt Ras Jnr, it was his information 
and his co-ordination.  He will also come and testify to 
that extent.
	The elimination of the activists and the safe house was 
necessary in the light of the fact that the activists were 
involved in serious acts of terror. It was necessary to 
eliminate these activists to stabilise society.
	It was furthermore necessary to protect the lives of 
innocent people, black and white.  It was impossible at that 
stage to neutralise activists completely by ways of the 
Security Act or normal police action. It was imperative to 
act preventatively in foreign countries.

UNKNOWN: On page 83, you are asked an explanation or 
your explanation regarding financial gain.

UNKNOWN: Quite a while after the operation, I will say 
approximately three or four weeks afterwards, Willie Nortje 
came to me and handed me an envelope, all the other people 
involved also received such an envelope.  If I can remember 
correctly, there was R6 000,00 in that envelope.  He said 
that it was for that operation and that the main branch 
congratulated us on it.
	I regarded that as a reward for that specific operation 
and for the reason that at that stage the National Party, 
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W CAPE: 85

UNKNOWN: the Government of the day would not officially have been 
able to give us medals for bravery for over border 
operations and so on.  We saw that we were not receiving 
medals for it but they gave us monetary rewards.  That was 
the first and the last time.

JUDGE WILSON: What bravery was there in shooting four 
civilians who were asleep, that you thought you deserved a 
medal?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I did not expect a medal, it was an 
over-border operation, in a different country, which was the 
enemy of the National Party, the Government of the day. If 
we were caught there by the Army of Botswana or the police 
or terrorists, they would have shot us.

JUDGE WILSON: Was Botswana the enemy of South Africa?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: You've just said so, you said a foreign 
country that was an enemy of the government of the day?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, then I would like to correct 
that.  They supported the enemies of the South African 
Government in housing these terrorists.  They allowed these 
people to use their country for operations against the South 
African Government.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, were you told anything 
beforehand with regards to extra remuneration?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Was the payment at all a motive for your 
involvement in the operation?

UNKNOWN: No, not at all.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  What did you think about this 
when you were paid for the operation, with regards to the 
higher officers and the main office, what did you think they 
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UNKNOWN: 86

UNKNOWN: accomplished by this?

UNKNOWN: It was their way of, in the first place, 
showing us that it had been an approved main office 
operation, and that they wanted to thank us in this way for 
destroying this house and for the fact that this route would 
not have been used again.

UNKNOWN: And Capt Mentz, under whose command did you 
act?

UNKNOWN: Under Eugene de Kock and the other officers 
there, who were present there.

JUDGE WILSON: How was the payment made?

UNKNOWN: It was at Vlakplaas ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: No you misunderstand was it by cheque, was it 
in cash?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, it was cash in a sealed brown 
envelope.

JUDGE WILSON: Given to you by one of the people who had 
participated in the operation?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chair, Willie Nortje.  For 
example, we never stood in a long queue to receive our 
envelopes.  We were called to the side one by one.  I, for 
example, had to go to Nortje's office.  He closed the door 
and then he gave the envelope to me, but I know that other 
people also received money.

HASSAN MALL: Are you finished?

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe, have the relations of the victims 
been notified in this case?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, no.  Mr Chairman, attempts were 
made to trace the relations, Mr Chairman, and the only thing 
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UNKNOWN: 87

UNKNOWN: that I could lay my hands on was the Sowetan newspaper 
report, wherein this Kahn family was reported about by a 
person who was a - by a Black woman who was working for 
them, and at that time she made a report when she was in 
Botswana. I could not make any traces as to families in 
Botswana. It was only a report in the newspaper.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you enquire from the Government and other 
such things?  If they owned a shop, a large shop, we are 
told, somebody presumably wound up the estate?

UNKNOWN: I did not make enquiries in the Botswana 
Government, but I am making enquiries with the ANC desk and 
they did not have any particulars about the Kahn family, 
save they also referred me to the World newspaper report.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I am not asking that.  Surely when 
somebody dies like this, who owns property, the estate would 
have been wound up and there would be a record kept in the 
relevant department as to what had been done with the 
assets; had that been paid to members of the family, you 
would have got the names of them.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that may be so, but I did not make any 
enquiries with the Botswana Government.

HASSAN MALL: Are there any questions you would like to put, 
Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Yes, sir.  Was it necessary 
for the night watchman to be killed?  In other words was it 
not possible for him just to be caught and bound and put 
back into his shack and go on with the operation?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I was not involved in that.  I don't 
even know who shot the man, but I can remember that he 
screamed and that he was then shot.  They wanted to silence 
him to prevent him from warning other terrorists who might 
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UNKNOWN: 88

UNKNOWN: have been in the house.  The persons who shot him had to act 
quickly to silence him.  I don't even know if he possibly 
helped ANC freedom fighters or terrorists. I don't know.

UNKNOWN: You said in your application that you wouldn't 
have killed the children yourself.  Am I understanding you 
to be saying that the death of these two children was 
uncalled for?