Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.  And the gun he carried underneath - he kept underneath the till point at all times.

MR PRIOR: I just want to clear up one aspect, when you noticed this vehicle coming towards you, you say there was shooting from both sides - sorry, let me correct that, you saw shooting towards the opposite side of Heidelberg Tavern?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say that was random?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And the side of the vehicle that shot at - sorry, the person that shot at you where you were standing, where did that shooting come from, from ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: From the back of the vehicle on the left-hand side.

MR PRIOR: You said earlier something: "It was R1's or R4's or AK47's, are you able to describe with any precision what the firearms were that were being used on that evening?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Not with any precision.

MR PRIOR: But were they small short weapons or were they long?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: They had longer barrels than my usual gun that I use, I'd say they were rifles.

MR PRIOR: Rifles?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Cerqueira, as the legal representatives of the applicants and for the applicants, we are sorry to know that your brother was killed in the incident.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sorry, could you speak up, I can't hear you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, we are sorry - the legal representatives and the applicants and it's really tragic and as legal representatives we are not here to defend or to justify what happened that evening, do you understand that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I understand that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Has it been explained to you by Mr Prior or anyone else what this process is about - this amnesty?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I've been following it quite closely on TV.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But do you know ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I've been reading the newspaper and I know what this is all about.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay.  Are you opposed to these three applicants being granted amnesty?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Very much so, I am.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now if you are opposed, on what basis are you opposing the applications?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Because up until this stage I didn't want - all I wanted to do and my family wanted to was to forget the whole thing, until I heard what these gentlemen were coming up with - about the shooting at them.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That my brother was shooting at them or to that effect that my brother carried a weapon and pointed at them or whatever they're saying, then I decided I'll get involved now.  Up until that point I was quite prepared to forget the whole thing.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But you were also prepared to forget it because they had been tried and convicted and sentenced, so they'd been stuck away for - in their case, 27 years so on that basis you were prepared to forget about it, is that right?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Not on those basis', I was prepared to forget so that my whole family could put everything behind it - this sentence to me means nothing.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But you must have then been satisfied that the perpetrators or at least some of them had been apprehended and had gone to court and they'd been found guilty and sentenced?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: If you call somebody that takes another person's life and sits for 20 years and then can come out and - I don't want to sound as if I'm accusing anybody but if you call that justice, to me it's not justice.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I requested the policemen's - I wanted to examine the bag just to - while I have an opportunity.

NORMAN ARENDSE: May I continue Mr Chairman?  Would it be correct to say that what want is justice?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That's quite correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And justice for you would have been - you would have preferred them to get the death penalty, would that have been justice for you?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: At that time when I saw my brother lying there obviously one expects the same from whoever does that, takes a loved one away from you and up until about a year ago sure, I wanted the death sentence.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, that's why I asked you whether this process has been explained to you.   Do you know what the difference is between this amnesty hearing -  this process and the criminal process?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.  They've been charged, they've been found guilty and they've got 20 odd years what you mentioned, I understand that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And that ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: This is now - they want amnesty so they can walk in the streets again, is that correct?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, it's not correct.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Okay, would you explain to me then please?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, let's examine that.  The criminal court is about justice okay, where people are found - they're brought before the court, they're tried, evidence is let and on that evidence you are found guilty or not guilty.  In their case they were found guilty and they were sentenced, now that is justice.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Okay I understand, please carry on.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now do you understand this process that it's not the same as the criminal process?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Could you please elaborate?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said that he knows now they're applying for amnesty and if they get it they'll be free - he said that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, I'm not sure whether the answer came out that way.
	I still want you to understand because it is of concern to us as legal representatives that as a victim it doesn't appear from what you say that it has been explained to you what this process is all about.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Well, it seems to me that I don't really understand, so will you please explain it to me?

NORMAN ARENDSE: You seem to be very cynical that where someone applies for amnesty and is granted amnesty that they can as you put it, go and walk the streets.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: What is this all about then?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, maybe you tell me.  You are now giving evidence here today, you've been asked to give evidence as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: He's given you what his understanding ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you're opposing this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He's given you what his understanding is Mr Arendse, if you think he ought to have a better understanding, put it to him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I want to put it to you and the other victims who intend testifying, if they can also hear what I'm saying, that this process is not about justice.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: What is it about Sir?

NORMAN ARENDSE: This is about this Committee hearing the truth of what happened that night and it's about reconciliation, do you believe in reconciliation?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I believe in reconciliation and I believe in the truth and therefore I've just given the statement that I did and that is the truth, that is the truth.

NORMAN ARENDSE: What do you mean by you believe in reconciliation?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I want to hear - that's the reason why I came here today, I want to hear what the gentleman sitting who - one of these gentlemen sitting here that shot my brother has got to say to me.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And if - I don't think - I haven't seen you here before today.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, Sir.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now they've had an opportunity and they've already said what happened that night and Mr Gqomfa who's sitting on your far right there, he has said that he shot your brother.  Is there anything more that you wanted to hear?