Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, I would further like to put it to you on instructions, that the brother of Jwi Zwane, Elias Zwane had a business which was in competition with Mr John Mndebele, that Jwi Zwane was working with his brother in his brother's business, and that that was the reason why Jwi Zwane was eliminated, because of a personal thing between Mr John Mndebele and the Zwane family?  Would you care to comment?

MR ZWANE: Let me start by saying that I do not agree with your allegation that there was bad blood between the Zwane's and the Mndebele's.  I am also a Zwane.
	What I can say here is that Jwi Zwane never had a business, I heard yesterday that he once owned a business.  He actually never owned a business.
	It was also indicated here that he worked for his brother.  I cannot deny that, but at the time of the violence, he was not working for his brother.  I also explained here before this Committee yesterday, that I met Jwi Zwane at the Police station where he used to spend most of his time.
	There was also a time when the Black Cats left the township and they came to stay in town.

MR HATTINGH: Okay, I would further wish to put it to you that Chris Ngwenya, there was no reason for him to be assassinated, apart from the fact that there was also a personal problem between Chris Ngwenya and Mr John Mndebele which came to a head on that Saturday, the day before Chris was killed, when John Mndebele laid a charge with the Police against Mr Chris Ngwenya?

MR ZWANE: I know not of any information about a charge being laid by Mr Mndebele against Chris.
	What we did was to come together and tried to identify any remaining problem and make the necessary decision.  I therefore cannot comment on what John Mndebele did in so far as the laying of the charge is concerned.  He never told us anything to that effect.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir, no questions.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, have you got any re-examination?  None?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Zwane, you mentioned that you are also a Zwane.  Were you related to Jwi Zwane in any manner?

MR ZWANE: No, we are not related, we just have the same surnames.  In our culture it turns, we do refer to each other as relatives, but not in the true sense of the word.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Mr Zwane, before all this problems started, what did you know to have been the occupation of Jwi Zwane?

MR ZWANE: I have never known him to work.  I have known him to be working at any stage whatsoever.
	Ever since I knew him, he was not working.

ADV SANDI: And what was the occupation of Chris Ngwenya in your knowledge before the problems started?

MR ZWANE: Chris Ngwenya was a student at that time, but when the violence started, he got involved in the violence and stopped schooling so he was not employed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane, while you may not have been a relative of the deceased Jwi Zwane, did you belong to the same clan?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You in that context, you say that you never knew Jwi Zwane to be employed or operating a business of any sort.

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say also that you did not know whether his brother Elias had a business?

MR ZWANE: Elias Zwane does have a business, it was only Jwi who did not have a business.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Now would you know because of your clan connections, whether Jwi would be working for his brother or not?
	How can you say he didn't?

MR ZWANE: You would get Jwi at any place, even before the violence, he would come and visit me and at no stage did he mention that he was working.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that, but at the time of his death, is it not possible that he was working for his brother?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, with respect, the applicant said the following about the employment.  As Mr Chairman correctly points out, he talks about the clan connection, he says he heard this yesterday.
	He said that it was also alleged and indicated that he was working for his brother and then he said, I cannot dispute that, so in so far as the working for his brother is concerned, his evidence has been that he cannot dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is possible that he did work for his brother at the time?

MR ZWANE: I wouldn't say whether he was working for his brother or not, but as a relative I would talk with him from time to time, but at no stage did he ever mention that he was going to work, so I cannot deny nor admit that he was working for his brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you know the strife this country had to put up with, even till today, is unacceptable.  There seems to be some forces in this country that are bent on retaining that set of circumstances.  It is further heartbreaking to note that even families and clans are broken up by this.
	That in itself is unacceptable.  Is there no way that the traditions of clans and families can be restored in this area?

MR ZWANE: I don't think I understand you.  Could you just rephrase your question and be a bit brief?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is there no way people can come together and live the way they should, in this area?  This community in particular the black community, has been torn apart, tragically I think.

MR ZWANE: I don't think there is a way forward for us through negotiations, not unless the very same elements who were involved in tearing apart the fabric of the society, still gets involved in continuing to do the very same thing.
	I think we will be able to sit down and negotiate, especially after these hearings.  I think I would be able to explain to members of the community as to why I did those things and how I did them and ask for their forgiveness so that I could go back into the community that I originated from, so that they could also forgive me for my deeds because the decisions that I took were very difficult decisions, but under the circumstances, I had no other option but to act in the manner that I did.
	We have lost Jwi whom I regard as my brother.  I can just point out that that was a painful decision for me to take, it doesn't bring me joy in any way, even today as an individual and I don't think the community is impressed with all that has happened.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, it is all very well to say we need to negotiate.  Maybe negotiations is a stepping stone, starting point but families, clans, communities are not based on agreements that are negotiated.
	All these years in our country, the existence of communities are based on respect for human integrity.  Do you see any chance of reaching that stage, maybe initially by negotiations, but proceeding beyond that?
	We can't be living with each other based on an agreement, it doesn't work like that.