Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I knew the name but I did not know the identity of the person.

ADV DE JAGER: When you kidnapped her you had the name and you had the person together so you knew the name and the identity because here you have got the two together?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I will say it for the second time, I forgot her name because everytime I when I was filling these forms I was filling them with somebody else.

ADV DE JAGER: At the time of the kidnapping what were your specific instructions then from Meneer?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: He said we should talk with her peacefully and take her from Extension 5 to Extension 2 and go with her.

MS PATEL: Who did he say should talk with her unless specific instructions regarding that?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: No she did not mention a person responsible for talking to her it's an order.

MS PATEL: So in terms of the general order the possibility existed at that stage that you might have been one of those people who would have questioned her?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Given that at the stage when you received the order to kidnap, right, you say that Meneer gave a general order that she should be questioned.  What I'm putting to you is that there is then given that, there's the possibility that you would have been one of those people who would have questioned her, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay, so the order was not only for you to kidnap, the order was for you to question her as well?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: The instruction was that we should go and take her at her place at Extension 5.

MS PATEL: No, that wasn't my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you supposed to question her as well?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: We arrived and informed her that we should leave, then she denied therefore we had to take her by force to Extension 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let me try again.  After she was supposed to be kidnapped, what did Meneer say should happen to her exactly?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, if I may interject here.  According to my client's instructions or according to his evidence in chief he testified that the incident of the kidnapping was ordered by Ben Mashinini.  My learned friend is still I think leading him on the fact that Meneer gave the specific order whereas Meneer gave the order regarding the arson of the house which occurred a month before.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Whoever gave the order for the kidnapping, were you supposed to have interrogated her as well?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: No, we tried to talk to her so that we should go to Extension 2, therefore that is why we had to take her by force.  We were not supposed to question her but just to instruct her to go with us.

MS PATEL: Is all that Ben had said to you, that that was the full extent of your instructions?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV MOTATA: Mr Modikoa, at Extension 2 whose place was she supposed to be taken to at Extension 2, Extension 2 is a big place.  Precisely where at Extension 2 was she to be taken to?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: At her house.

ADV MOTATA: Whose house was that at Extension 5 where you were supposed to fetch her from.

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: I didn't know whose house was that in Extension 5.

ADV MOTATA: So the number given I think 9381, was that number at Extension 5?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: That's Extension 2.

ADV MOTATA: This number is at Extension 2, that's her place?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes, that is 9381 that is her house number.  That Extension 5, I didn't know whose house was that.

ADV MOTATA: How did you find the place when you didn't know?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: We didn't know the house number in Extension 5.  The 9381 is her house number in Extension 2.

ADV MOTATA: Now do I follow you correctly that you had to fetch her from Extension 5, take her to her house, do I follow you correctly?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: We were supposed to take her from Extension 5 and take her to Extension 2 to her house.

ADV MOTATA: Was the questioning supposed to happen at her house about her membership of the organisation?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Those were the orders of Mashinini that she must be questioned at her place and not be taken to Mashinini for instance?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: This Extension 2, number 9381, when did you remember this number or where did you learn about this number, this address?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: It was after elections because the numbers were written on the walls at that time after the elections.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Just two questions Mr Modikoa.  You are 20 years of age, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes you are correct.

MR SAMUELS: And this incident occurred in 1993 so your age at that time would have been fifteen years, is that correct?

MOGOERA VALENTOR MODIKOA: Yes you are is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you, I have nothing further Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS
WITNESS EXCUSED