Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I suppose so yes, but I have never been involved in a scheme where I didn't have to follow up even with the baxil or ecstasy that I made, I had a complete batch record of each production batch that we ran, the quantities and also - so it was very tightly controlled and I would expect even in a case like this that there would be tight control over the quantities produced with each batch, if only the quantities mentioned on page 124 of TRC 63 was used, you would expect from a record like this that you have obtained so much of the material and I don't see anything of this nature here.

MR VALLY: Alright, I need to move on to a few other items.  Can you advise us what Madresco, what company was Madresco.  Have you heard of Madresco?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well Madresco as far as I'm concerned was the company that was controlled by Dr Basson and which was actually the company responsible for accepting our research results and we actually paid the company for our research work in CBW context.

MR VALLY: Have you heard of Infadel?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

MR VALLY: So as far as you know, the company through which money was channelled to Delta G Scientific was Madresco.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did it play any other role?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, not as far as I know.

MR VALLY: Do you know how much money was channelled into Delta G?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I know from certain of our - especially the document referring to Delta G's reports that our research contract was worth about R7.55 million and this was allocated to different aspects of the CBW research.

MR VALLY: You had three fives, is this seven and a half million or is it much more?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I just checked in the document, that's the quantity that's written in there.

MR VALLY: Seven point five, five, five?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes I think so.

MR VALLY: Okay.  There are certain code names which I'd like you to assist us with.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I will try, can I just go to the relevant document because I think I did write some of them down which I could remember?  Okay, it's document TRC 61.

MR VALLY: Right.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: This is a quarterly report for 1982 Delta G Scientific.  On page 1473.

MR VALLY: Yes.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Research Projects ... (indistinct) ...

MR VALLY: Yes I do.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Now R42210087 was my narcotics CBW programme which eventually became 43900688.

MR VALLY: Okay.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: The forty five numbers refer to some biochemical project.  Dr Jordaan was head of that department at this stage, I'm not sure what they were working on.

MR VALLY: Alright.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I think that this R22910088 was probably an information gathering project that was run by Dr Klaus Psotta.

MR VALLY: Right.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: R43410087 was the so-called Incos Data System which referred to the analysis data base for CBW agents.

MR VALLY: Alright.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: And R42220087 was a pyrotechnical study on CS and CR which I was also involved in as far as I can recall, I'm not exactly sure about this, but I think so.  Most of our - we had to destroy our data so I have to work from memory here.

MR VALLY: Sure.  Are there any others that you can identify in terms of the project numbers?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: In terms of the projects numbers, are there any other projects that you can identify?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.  There's reference in this document to an amount of four hundred and ninety thousand rand (R490 000,00) or some contact with Roodeplaat Research Laboratories which I have no ideas what it was about.

MR VALLY: Alright, now in the same document there are references to other code names, I'm referring to the code names beginning FP/003.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: FP/003 was the code name CR.

MR VALLY: That's CR.  And FP/00 ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: 4.

MR VALLY: Is there a 4 as well, yes.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: There's a 4, that was CS.

MR VALLY: And an FP/00T52?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No I have no idea, can't remember.

MR VALLY: FP/00B50.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No sir, I can't remember.

MR VALLY: FP/00MO1?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I know from these documents that it referred to the so-called Mosrefcat or MX and so on, but I wasn't involved in that project.  I assume it's that one.

MR VALLY: So the code appearing on the Mosrefcat document is FP/00/MO1?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now in TRC 61 can you show us reference to that?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Can you just hold on a minute?  Not where the research projects are concerned.

MR VALLY: Okay.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: On page 1473, I don't know.  There's no reference to this as far as I could remember.

MR VALLY: Alright.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I'm not sure about some of these, I tried to identify those that I was involved in and I know that Code 45 referred to the Biochemistry Department.

MR VALLY: Let's move on to another substance.  At some point you referred us to research into canabinoids?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

MR VALLY: For the lay person, because we know cannabis to be dagga.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That's dagga, yes.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us exactly what this research was and for what purpose?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well I know that when Dr Lourens was head of the Research Division, that they did obtain some dagga plant material from the Forensic Department, I assume it was from Dr Neethling's department and they also refer in this TRC 61 to an extract that they made there.  I know that Dr Klaus Psotta did some work on cannabinoids or dagga at that stage and one of the objectives was also of this project and again, at that stage, it was Dr Lourens' responsibility, Gert Lourens, to run the CBW programme and one of the objectives was to do a SAR study, a Structure Activity Relationship Study and he did a detailed one on this.  I know that Mr Chard Henning worked on this cannabinoid project and he actually obtained his MSc on it and I only took over the cannabinoid project in August 1989 when Dr Russell Thompson was put onto that project as a potential incapacitant and he attempted to make some of these compounds, but he wasn't successful in that regard and the research documents with my name and Thompson's on it here in relation to that refer to that.

MR VALLY: I see.  And can you tell us what pyrethroids are?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Pyrethroids are insecticides.  You get cypromethrine and so on which is used to kill off mosquitoes for example.

MR VALLY: Was this used or researched into for purposes of using against people?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, definitely not - not as far as I'm concerned or any work that we did, that I know about.  I used that sulphoxide document as a front for the baxil and this is a synergist that is added to pyrethroids to enhance it's knockdown capabilities for house flies for example.

MR VALLY: You've mentioned quarterly meetings with Dr Wouter Basson at a time where you were, I believe the head of research, is that right?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.  We switched over roles around the end of 1989 and Dr Lourens started doing commercial work again and I took over the role of being head of the CBW unit.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what you discussed at these meetings?