Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: The next morning, did you gather the remains and throw these into the Fish River?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The vehicle which you had with you - Madaka's vehicle, was then taken to Tella Bridge near to the Lesotho border and it was left there, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Was the purpose of that to create the impression that these persons had left the country?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Nieuwoudt, to a certain extent you've dealt with the political background, do you confirm what you've said up to page 51 and including 51 of Annexure A, that's paragraph 17?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: I have already dealt with your political background and you've also dealt with it to a certain extent but if we can just look at the spirit of the day.  Mr P W Botha was the State President, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: And one of his well-known phrases was: "The total onslaught" phrase?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The message which came to you as a security force person even as one of the junior officers, was that this "total onslaught" had to be fought?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The utterances of the leaders of the day at that time concerned largely words such as: "enemies which had to be eliminated, the ANC had to be taken on" and similar statements?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: A politician never told you directly to kill people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: But the deduction which you made from what the politicians had been saying what they wanted was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was that we should eliminate people and that we should protect the Apartheid Government and the White population at all times.

MR BOOYENS: They wanted the results, you could work out the methods.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct, unconventional methods were used.

MR BOOYENS: You've said that the talk about eliminating people also created the impression from what was discussed amongst your own ranks, that people could be eliminated if necessary.  It was part of their total reaction to the "total onslaught".

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you yourself believe that you could contribute in achieving this objective of a complete action against the "total onslaught"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did believe this.

MR BOOYENS: If we can just return to the two deceased persons specifically. As far as you were concerned the death of the two deceased would be essential for achieving this objective or not the entire achievement but partial achievement of combating the total onslaught?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, with the objective of toppling the Government.

MR BOOYENS: So the total objective was to ...[inaudible] the toppling of the Government?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You mention on page 52, the political objectives which you wanted to achieve, do you confirm the contents of 52?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Just for clarity purposes, on the top of page 54, paragraph 24, you mention SM and TM that's Madaka - Topsi Madaka that is referred to?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Nieuwoudt, did you participate in the killing of these persons - first listen to the question.  Did you participate in killing them for your own purposes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR BOOYENS: Or in any way to gain anything out of it yourself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR BOOYENS: As far as you were concerned, it was for the protection of a political dispensation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage, did you believe that that political dispensation which was in place was necessary for South Africa?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So it was based on your own political convictions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So you acted in a double capacity - if I can put it that way, on the one hand then as a security policeman and in the other context, privately as a support of the Government?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: And this was what your conviction and belief was based on?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: I've said as a supporter of the Government - as a supporter of the Governing party?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: If we can just touch on some other aspects, why are you applying for amnesty in this case and other cases?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, because of the opportunity and process that was made available to me, also taking into consideration the crime and conflict which arose at that time, I personally am sorry towards the families - sorry about happened.  I was caught up in the middle of the struggle and the conflict of the past against the liberation organisations who wanted to overthrow the apartheid Government and it was on that basis that I was caught up in the middle of this conflict.
	And now the present Government has given me the opportunity to come and tell the truth here and explain what happened and it's on that basis that I am applying for amnesty.

MR BOOYENS: That is why you decided to apply for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You've hear what your colleagues have testified that your - you were also not very hasty in applying for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Your colleagues have said that in police ranks and between your colleagues and yourself the opportunity of amnesty has been discussed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And there has been a measure of distrust towards this process, did you have the same experience?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did experience it in this way Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And it was only later after General van der Merwe had given an input and you had discussed it with Mr van der Merwe and the attorney, that you decided to apply for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You also discussed this with your former colleagues I presume?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you mention to them that you were planning to apply for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: As far as this particular matter is concerned and to your knowledge, was anybody else involved in this matter apart from the four applicants?  Were there other offenders involved?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not that I know about.

MR BOOYENS: Possibly just for purposes of the records, some photographs have been made which form part of the exhibits.  You took these, I want to identify them - they've already been handed in.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR BOOYENS: Yes, Exhibit E Mr Chairman.  He pointed out the - which resulted in the key to the photographs and plan.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MR VISSER: I have no questions to this witness, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR PHOSA: Mr Nieuwoudt, why did you have some - why was there a measure of distrust regarding this process?