Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: They didn't actually handcuff us, they just took us and put us in the van.  We didn't even go to the charge office, we went to the cells.  They opened, we entered the cells.  We never gave statements.  Felani was walking up and down, coming to us and back and forward.  He came to give a report that I shouldn't worry because we will be released.  He said I made a mistake because they nearly shot at us, the police.  He went back and forth, and late on that same day a big van came.  Oh I'm sorry, before the van arrived the young man in Davel we arrested with hunting knife, spears and they took these arms and keep them at the police station.  Thereafter a very big police van came.  It was driven by a white policeman.  We were put into this car.  I told him I cannot travel such a long distance without my gun.  I requested that he give me my gun.  He said, "Don't worry, it will follow after you leave".  We went and when we arrived at the police station we parked outside in Ermelo.  Let me go back, I'm sorry.  These things were taken in the charge office.  Arms were collected in Davel.  They were taken and put in the same van that we travelled with.  Sorry.

MR WILLS: Sorry, tell us how you got out the cells?  You told us that you were put in the cells and Felani was walking up and down.  How did you get out the cells?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Felani took us from the cells and handed us to another white man who came with this big van, and they took us to Christopher Ngwenya who was a leader of the Black Cats.  That's where he dropped us.

MR WILLS: And where is Christopher Ngwenya's house?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: In Ermelo in Estancia.

MR WILLS: And were you charged for this incident?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No.

MR WILLS: And were statements taken from you?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, no statement was taken.

MR WILLS: Now, you refer at the bottom of page one hundred and sixty two (162) to the fact that you were hunted down by an ANC assassin by the name of Pappa.  Do you see that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Here below.  I'm not sure whether I stated the facts correctly.  I said there was a certain young man known as Pappa.  He was a former MK and he was killing SAP Police and also members of the IFP.  Roux came to say that they have a problem with a man called Pappa, he's from Nelspruit, he's busy killing police and he asked if I can help to kill him.  I accepted and agreed that I can kill him.  I said he needs a rifle because I won't be able to shoot him, to kill him with a pistol.  And I said if they can allow me I can go back to KwaZulu-Natal to search for this big rifle and I will come back with it.  Therefore, after Noah transported me, I was with China.  We went to Chief Wiseman Kayelihle Mathaba at Nyoni.  When we arrived at Nyoni, Mathaba said we shall see her on the second day or Tuesday and we slept at this particular place, and we were told of Super Buthelezi who works at the KwaZulu Government.  He has a 303.  We are going to leave the AK47 and take the 303 rifle.  It was myself, China, Noah, we left and we got a box of fifty rounds of ammunition and a 303.  We came back with it to Ermelo.

MR WILLS: And you tried to find this Pappa, but you were unsuccessful, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: So, you didn't find him at all at any stage?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I failed in all the places to which the police had directed me where I could find him.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And then in paragraphs eighty three (83), eighty four (84) and eighty five (85) you tell us how you were in fact on one of your returns from Zululand or KwaZulu-Natal arrested by the police at the taxi rank?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And there again you were released to Christopher Ngwenya's house eventually?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the statement you make in regard to that incident?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I confirm.

MR WILLS: Now, just one aspect.  In paragraph eighty seven (87) - sorry, you'd explained to Noah that you were worried about your firearms and you wanted them returned to you.  Do you recall that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And can you confirm that one of the firearms was returned to you by Felani?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He didn't personally give me the firearm.  He told me Bongani took my firearm.  He didn't know that Bongani have, I would say have moved from the Black Cats and joined the ANC, so I couldn't relocate Bongani to get the firearm.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you went to look for Bongani to recover this firearm?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, there were two arms.  It was a 9mm Parabellum and a 303 arms with Bongani.

MR WILLS: Yes, and when you say that the one firearm that you were looking for, the 9mm Parabellum, was the same firearm that you'd been arrested after shooting the boy in Davula, you're referring to the incident, this shootout with the ANC members in paragraph seventy six (76), is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, I want you to tell us about this warning from the South African Police that the ANC were on to you.  It starts at paragraph eighty eight (88) of your affidavit.  Do you see on page one hundred and sixty five (165), paragraph eighty eight (88)?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: The police with whom we were working were informed or we gave reports to them as to what happened, and we also gave reports as to what they know.  On one particular day someone by the name of Roux came to ask or to take me to Von Zweel's office.  We went to Von Zweel's office.  We had a conflict or an altercation with this white man because he said the community was complaining about the training that I have opened in the community.  I looked at Nkosi, he was quiet.  I said, "But you know that they were supposed to be trained and before they go at school they have to take a roadwork and I will train them and thereafter they will go to school and we will put tins on the wall and they will shoot at them and go.  But why you want me to stop them", and he said, "No, I don't have problems with that, but police from outside might come and arrest you".

MR WILLS: And so what advice were you given, if any?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: We came with an agreement that we should do all the work in secrecy so that the community do not get anything to complain about us.  Thereafter they took me back.

MR WILLS: You say in your affidavit that you were advised to keep yourself in doors and halt your operations.  Is that true?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, because police from outside from Ermelo wanted to arrest me.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, you then in paragraph eighty nine (89) talk about you receiving orders to move to Esikhawini.  Can you just tell us who you received these orders from?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: From Daluxolo Luthuli who is my commander.

MR WILLS: And how did it come about?  Can you explain how you received that order?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Daluxolo called me telephonically and he said he need me to help his squad at Esikhawini because IFP members are being eliminated in the area.

MR WILLS: And you eventually went back to Ulundi, is that right?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: But before you went you still tried to get your weapons back from Bongani Khaba, is that right?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: But your ... (intervention)

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Excuse me, I don't have one hundred and sixty six (166).

MR WILLS: Yes.  Well, I'll just lead you on that.  I don't think this is controversial.  It's not going to form part of the amnesty application.  Just to finalise, Mr Chairperson.  You say in paragraph ninety (90) and ninety one (91) that you went to try and find Bongani who had defected in order to recover your weapons from him, is that right?