Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR BRACHER: Ystergarde in those three days, what did they do to attack this hated State?

MR LE ROUX: They detonated several pipe bombs in different places.

MR BRACHER: Where?  Tell me what targets and who died in those?

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any State apparatus to which you directed your attacks?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, how do you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR LE ROUX: I do not carry any knowledge concerning the pipe bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's the question.

MR LE ROUX: I don't bear any knowledge about that.

MR BRACHER: There's a thing that I don't understand about your evidence.  At one stage you said:  "Ek will nie uitermatige lewens neem nie".  At the end of your evidence you said something about total chaos, what was it that you intended?

MR LE ROUX: I did not hear what you said the first time Chairperson, could you please repeat?

MR BRACHER: In your evidence you said: "I do not want too take too many lives" and that was under cross-examination.  In your evidence in chief you said: "I wanted total chaos in the country".

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's in order to create the psychosis of fear so that the people should think that something is happening, bombs are exploding and we even would have attacked the power lines and it would have created complete chaos.  That would have cause more deaths than any bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, at the risk of giving you a second breath tomorrow morning, we would like to adjourn at your earliest convenience.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you done?

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at half past nine.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION: 18TH JUNE 1998 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  Mr Le Roux you are still under oath.

MR LE ROUX: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, I think you were winding down.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry Mr Chair, I'm instructed by my clients Ms Siako and Ms Ngwenya after the hearings yesterday that certain members of the public present at this hearing find the fact of the bombings and the killings amusing, they find this most offensive and I'm requested to request you Mr Chair to please indicate to the public not to make light of this matter and to not express amusement at the fact of death and injuries.  Thank you.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

CHAIRPERSON: My attention has been drawn to what is possibly an unsavoury set of circumstances that occurred yesterday after we had adjourned.  I wish to point out the people from both sides of the spectrum have hopefully come here to clear their minds and hearts.  Some have come to listen and to even find out what actually happened to people dear to them.  The purpose of the process is to prepare ourselves to live with each other in the future and despite what has gone by and as best as we can in the circumstances.
	I would appeal to all to respect the feelings of the other and to be particularly sensitive to the obvious emotions attached to the events presently being referred to.  It is to be hoped that what I have said will be taken very seriously.  Any other matters that I need to deal with before we proceed.  Yes Mr Prior?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson with regards to the applicant Olivier, and we spoke about this in Chambers and she indicated that his application would be dealt with in chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he can step down.  We will work with his application in the Chambers, it's not one of those applications that need to stand trial.  Yes Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman yesterday afternoon I received a facsimile from Mr Nicholas Clifton Barnard from C-Max Prison in Pretoria where he formally withdraws his application and also indicates that, yes, he withdraws the application and that he makes such election freely and voluntarily. May I hand up that facsimile to be marked Exhibit B.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that done with the preliminaries for this morning?  Mr Bracher we finally get to you.

MR BRACHER: (cont)
	Mr Le Roux you will remember yesterday I left off making the point that you had chosen to kill and cause damage to civilians only.  Do you remember us reaching that point?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: It's correct isn't it that the site you chose in Bree Street is about a block from the Post Office.

MR LE ROUX: I was not aware of that at the time Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: We already know you drove past the SABC, you drove through Braamfontein which I presume would have had fewer people on a Sunday than the city centre.  Is that right?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And not only did you choose civilians only, but you chose a place where you would cause the most injury and damage to civilians on a Sunday.  You skipped Braamfontein, you decided against the Carlton Centre and you chose maximum damage, even if possible, to make buildings collapse.  Is that right?

MR LE ROUX: I said that if that bomb had been placed there on the Monday it would have killed more people Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: No, no I'm not saying that, I'm saying that on a Sunday the site you chose was the site which would cause most injury and damage to civilians only.

MR LE ROUX: No, more to the buildings.  That was more the factor.

MR BRACHER: Well I presume the more buildings you get to collapse, the more people are going to be killed in them?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You see the point that I want to make ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Le Roux, do you know what kind of buildings they were, were they business buildings of flats?

MR LE ROUX: I thought that they were more business buildings and offices Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: But today, can you tell us what the true facts are?

MR LE ROUX: Yesterday I heard that there was a hotel not far from there, I didn't know about that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And we also heard that there was a church there.  Were you aware of it?

MR LE ROUX: If I thought it was a church I wouldn't have placed the bomb there.

CHAIRPERSON: But at that stage you didn't know?

MR LE ROUX: No I did not know exactly which shops were where, I did not know that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were not sure what the situation was concerning that area?

MR LE ROUX: No I knew the set up Chairperson because I drove past there often.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's what's bothering me.  You say that you imagined this place to be mainly a business area and now it seems that you are not sure about the fact.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson once again I would like to repeat what I said yesterday.  That bomb was to be placed in Johannesburg, that was the instruction and my opinion was to get into Jo'burg as quickly as possible and to get out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but in light of the question I would just like to know what did you think was the situation then?

MR LE ROUX: I thought they were offices and businesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you know better, do you think it was correct?

MR LE ROUX: Well afterwards I realised that the whole thing was futile, the planting of the bomb.  I mean that is quite evident Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just on the same point Mr Le Roux, I'm just a bit surprised to hear you say that you didn't know there was a post office just up the road, yet your essential evidence has been that you were chosen for this particular mission because you knew Johannesburg. What is it that you knew about Johannesburg?  What did you put yourself out as knowing about Johannesburg?