Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

ANSWER: Sir you know it was in a situation where you become involved, previous Exhibits you got rid of and there were no further implications or traces that the firearm which I was looking for had been found, we would just have been left in an Inkatha area, but that was before we stopped at the bottle store where we took the decision to dispose of him, to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: ...that he should be killed, who suggested that?

ANSWER: It was at the time when we stopped, the stop which I mentioned in my document, approximately, after an approximate 15 minute drive where we stopped at the bottle store, we stood there conversing and Frans Erasmus came up with the suggestion that we should kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anybody said that that shouldn't be done?

ANSWER: All (indistinct) of our police members, special
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constables and permanent policemen, not one of us said no don't do it or we shouldn't do it.   The special constables were Inkatha members and we were aware of their feeling towards ANC members and we were right-wing policemen.   So the general decision was unanimous.

JUDGE WILSON: You had thrown away the pocketbook before you decided to kill him hadn't you?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: So as far as you were concerned, evidence was unimportant, the document, his own pocketbook which would convict him was of no relevance, it was something you threw out of the van, is that your evidence?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Wilson, the war which we were waging against the ANC, if I could just look into my record in the police, we arrested ANC people our total onslaught, as I was taught at the College and by the Unit and in the work which I did and what I saw on a daily basis made it necessary for me in this objective.

JUDGE WILSON: You arrested him, why didn't you charge him, you had a cast-iron case against him, on your evidence, why didn't you follow it up?

ANSWER: My first priority was the attacks which were launched on the Inkatha people and it was also at a time where we had intensified the detentions on the ANC people with the aim of getting the firearms which were used to kill the 18 Inkatha people in the bus.

JUDGE WILSON: ...interested in getting firearms, weren't you?

ANSWER: That is correct to assist the Inkatha party.

JUDGE WILSON: (No microphone).

ANSWER: I mentioned that we would give away the weapons
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sometimes and sometimes we would sell them.

JUDGE WILSON: ...which you prepared
"ANC houses were searched for firearms.  The firearms would then be sold to Inkatha supporters.  Semi-automatic firearms for example, AK-47 rifles would be sold for R1 000 a piece and shotguns for example, pistols and revolvers would be sold for between R500 to R700."

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Wilson.

JUDGE WILSON: ...in another one of your statements where you set out all the pistols you (indistinct), you set out the prices, same prices, R1 000 down to R500.   Do you agree with those prices?

ANSWER: That is correct, we sold them to the Inkatha.
JUDGE WILSON:
"If I were to guess I sold between 100 and 150 firearms to the Inkatha."

ANSWER: If you would like to calculate it as such, but we, it's between 100 and 150 firearms were given and sold to them so at the time, the pocketbook was not very important to me because...

JUDGE WILSON: ....firearms that you could sell, the ones that were given were the homemade ones, that also appears in your statement doesn't it?

ANSWER: I would like to emphasise that the objective is incorrect because it was not with blatant view of selling the firearms, it was more of a service which we rendered to the Inkatha, who had less firearms than the ANC and at that time you know I even applied for a loan of R1 000 at the bank to obtain more.   So if you mentioned R50 000, I cannot say that I was rich.
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UNKNOWN: Did you pocket the money?

ANSWER: The money which we obtained from the sale of firearms we used among ourselves to buy meat and alcohol and we would have braais.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were your superiors aware that you were involved in a gun-running activity?

ANSWER: It was, we did it in the open.   After we had taken firearms from the ANC members we would go to the single quarters at the barracks and we operated freely, people would come to my room freely so it was a general operation amongst us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What I am saying is were your superiors, the people who were higher in rank than you are, aware that you were involved in this kind of activity?

ANSWER: I cannot say yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely if you reported this you would know that you reported it to your superior?

ANSWER: It is as I mentioned, I started at the Riot Squad and I was "raised" by senior members, not(?) to say officers or commanding officers of the operation itself.   I merely followed the path which they showed me and I led my juniors along the same path.

CHAIRPERSON: It is quite clear that no firearm whatsoever was found in the possession of the deceased.

ANSWER: That is correct, no firearm was found.

CHAIRPERSON: ...his house and search his house for firearms?

ANSWER: The entry in his pocketbook with regards to Richmond...

CHAIRPERSON: You searched his house to find firearms?

ANSWER: No, up until the stop at the bottle store the interrogation and so on continued and when we got back from
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Bengu's father's shop we took the decision to kill him.   No attempt was made to go to his residence.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember Mr Harrington that you wrote comments on Judge Thirion's judgment?

ANSWER: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I read to you what you wrote there at page 4?
"Here we were with an ANC supporter who did not want to give us any information with regards to his activities and in involvement in the Richmond area.   He was severely assaulted, that cannot be disputed.    I was not afraid of any charge of assault against me.   The next logical point was to murder Mr Jama.   My honour, as interrogator, and authority was in doubt and I could not handle it that an ANC supporter could just stare me in the face without any sound or answer.   His instructors who delivered him and his party should have been very proud of their soldier and with approximately three years of hatred of the ANC exploded within me.   I knew that Mr Jama had to die."
Is that true?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct Mr Wilson.

JUDGE WILSON: Because it was your prestige which was at stake which he was attacking.   Your honour as an interrogator, as an authority, it was in the context of the onslaught against the ANC?   He did not want to say anything so you decided to kill him.   That is what you say there.

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...single out Jama from that group to put him
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in the back of the van that your colleague was driving?

ANSWER: As I mentioned, firstly he appeared very suspect by putting his hand in the back of his pants and that necessitated Mr Erasmus to stop and thereafter he did not want to be arrested, albeit he did not want to be searched.  That was to prevent a situation where onlookers would start gathering around and it was also a reason to take him away than to get involved in a situation with a riot incident.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At which stage did he admit to being a communist?

ANSWER: We found that in his pocketbook which we found in his possession and also if I remember correctly, we mentioned at some stage that he had to die like the people in the Kwashange area according to the explanation given to me by Madlala, but that was not said to me directly.