Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But you know, a General is appointed to a top position, I would suggest for the express purpose of keeping control of the "manne", so to speak.  Not so?  Otherwise what is he there for?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there anyone in the management structures of the CCB who was a convicted criminal?

EDWARD WEBB: Not as far as I was aware.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was Theunis Kruger?

EDWARD WEBB: I have no idea.

GEORGE BIZOS: He had an important post, he was in charge of finances of the CCB.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I don't want to object constantly, but which period is Mr Bizos referring to?  For which period was Mr Theunis Kruger in charge of the finances of the CCB?  Is it for the period which Webb was the Chairperson, or not?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know.  Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well he was a co-accused, I am told, - no, he was not a co-accused, but a cell mate of Mr Barnard when he was serving his term of imprisonment.

EDWARD WEBB: So what?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chair, Mr Bizos isn't answering my objection.  I'm asking once again, when is Mr Theunis Kruger alleged to have been in charge of finance?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: But the answer is that you don't know a Mr Theunis Kruger?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I also put on record that Mr Bizos must find out his facts and say who is going to come and give that evidence, because he finds evidence of anyone to come and say that Theuns Kruger was in charge finances, I'll buy him lunch wherever he wants to go, here in Cape Town, because there won't be such evidence.  I know that's a fact.  I know that the Commission has made that finding.  I also know from previous evidence given in many other proceedings, that that is incorrect, Theuns Kruger was never in charge of finances of the CCB.  Those are also my instructions.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) by telling us what he was doing, Mr Chairman.

MR WESSELS: I beg your pardon?

GEORGE BIZOS: Perhaps you could be so good as to tell us what he was doing, if he was not in charge of finances.

MR WESSELS: He was someone of the lower echelons, I don't know what he did, but he was not - there was another person by the name of Jaco Black who was the Financial Manager.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, your button please.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm indebted to my learned friend for the information, but how could you as Chairman not know that two persons, whatever their position was, were recruited into the CCB, who had criminal records?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, I knew Joe Verster ...(intervention)

MR H DU PLESSIS: Once again Chairperson, Mr Bizos is referring to two people who had criminal records, when were they employed?  Was it at the stage when this witness was the Chairperson, or Commanding General of Special Forces, or had they already been employed when he took over as Commanding General?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) both in the CCB whilst he was the Chairman, Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: I would just like to know, Chairperson, were they appointed before he took over as Commanding General, or afterwards?

GEORGE BIZOS: Whilst you were Chairman, were there two people with criminal records in the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: My answer, as before, is not as far as I was aware.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, when it's a convenient time we'll take the ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I'll just put the final question on this issue.
	How can it be kept away from the Chairman that people who had the task of gathering information and sometimes called upon to execute the acts of the CCB that may have involved life and death, be kept on the CCB whilst you were Chairman?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, it's very clear that Mr Bizos has no idea how a covert operation conducts itself.  I knew Joe Verster and the one Regional Manager, Staal Burger, I met him, the other Regional Manager with the nickname of "Hymer" I met.  Those are the people I knew were in the CCB.  That's how the structure worked.

GEORGE BIZOS: Maybe you are right that I don't know anything about how secret organisations work, and don't apologise for that, but what I want to know from you is, why were you there other than to exercise overall control, as the Head of the Army was apparently expecting people involved to behave?

EDWARD WEBB: I had to carry out my functions and duties on my level, between myself and Col Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, on this business of need-to-know is a useful thing about parallel office bearers, but surely the Head must know everything, otherwise what's he the Head for?

EDWARD WEBB: My appointment was to be the Chairman, the Managing Director knew everything, not me as the Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you have expected your Managing Director to inform you in relation to all the relevant factors, including those enumerated by the Head of the Army?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The title Chairman denotes to me at least, somebody who presides over some sort of Board, that you are the Chairman at meetings and normally if you have a Chairman, there are other members of the Board, otherwise you might use a different term to denote who the Head of an organisation is.  Did you have a Board as such, did you ever meet with the Chairman and the Managing Director and other Board members, to discuss the affairs, produce annual reports or whatever?  Where does this word "Chairman" come from?

EDWARD WEBB: It is a word which the CCB used, a Chairperson, a Managing Director, and if it came out, if it was revealed, then those words would actually help to strengthen our cover.  I was never a Chairman of a Board in that sense.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to return to a previous question, Mr Chairman, ...(indistinct - no microphone) but it may be a convenient stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Only if it is a convenient stage, I didn't mean to side-track you to that extent.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, I was side-tracked a few questions ago, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now until 2 o'clock, thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

EDWARD WEBB: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Thank you.
	Now I was asking you about paragraph 418, about the extent of the activities of the CCB and the findings of the Commission.  Now I want to ask you, what was Project Crawler, during your stewardship?

EDWARD WEBB: If I remember correctly it was a project out of the country ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and what was it about?

EDWARD WEBB: ... and I am not prepared to talk about these foreign projects.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?  Why are you not prepared to talk about it?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, it has been discussed on numerous occasions before this Commission and the objection was made.  They are not prepared to testify about external operations because this Commission cannot give indemnity or amnesty in respect of external projects.  My client is not prepared to give any information about external projects.

GEORGE BIZOS: We submit, Mr Chairman, that that is a specious argument in order to avoid the extent of the activities of the CCB.  Let me ask some questions before I take the matter any further, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just repeat the name of that operation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Crawler.

CHAIRPERSON: C-r-a-w-l-e-r?

GEORGE BIZOS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were the Head of the CCB, correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could anyone without your authority spend for instance, according to the evidence of Mr Basson, also known as Britz, R265 014, 38 on a project without you knowing about it?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: So are we to assume that you knew about that project?