Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-17

GEORGE BIZOS: Chairperson, could we in view of - and I don't want to raise the temperature here but quite seriously and with the specific request of Minister Dullah Omar and the other victims in this case and the community whose facility was destroyed, serious consideration be given to the change of venue.  Mr Chairperson, if anybody feared for his life when we - if we were to have the hearing in Athlone I would submit with the greatest respect with the absence of the security here, if anyone who intended to harm anyone it would have been just as easy to do it on the pavement outside the building because we don't see any policemen around, hardly any policemen around, we don't see any visible security, I don't how, because it is so important to the victims, Mr Chairperson, and to the community, could I appeal for a consensus decision that we have it there where the facilities are available and where people needn't be crowded in the manner that they are here?  And insofar as there maybe a feeling that it should not be in the Early Learning Centre, arrangements can be made, there are other facilities there but there are good reasons why justice generally speaking is sought to be administered, Mr Chairperson, at a place where the people affected have access to and there are good historical and other reasons for it and I don't know whether Mr van Zyl who made the application and in view of what has happened since, wants to reconsider his position but they don't have to answer now, Mr Chairperson, but could serious consideration be given by the Committee in consultation with all concerned so that we can return there and have facilities.  This, the venue here in this building I thought was going to be the old venue, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That's been converted into office space because this floor you'll notice is deserted, it's no longer used and we were fortunate to get this on short notice, it's not very adequate I'm sure we'll all agree.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, we have said what we wanted to say Mr Chairperson and perhaps I see that Mr Martini is ready to push the button.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Ms Coleridge as well, her finger is twitching.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: Who wants to be a millionaire?

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't understand that joke, Mr Chairperson, I'm sorry but could he perhaps take instructions from his client before he makes any decision in relation to the matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Bizos.  Ms Coleridge?

MS COLERIDGE: Mr Chairperson, I just want to place on record that at our pre-hearing conference, I just want to revert back to that again in relation to the security.  We have offered Mr van Zyl security and witness protection if he does so require it and in relation to - and we still obviously want to extend that invitation to Mr van Zyl and anybody else that requires that for our next hearing.  In relation to the venue, Chairperson, I can say that Judge Keaney this instance regarded that the venue where the incident occurred was inappropriate and I could suggest that maybe we could get a venue somewhere else in Athlone and not at that particular venue where the incident occurred and I'd just like to extend that invitation for Mr van Zyl and his legal representative just to consider that and that the position of the Commission is still the same that we would obviously extend the invitation that if he requires protection we have full support of the SAP and everybody else in the area, Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, before Mr Martini responds can I just add?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: I have at the outset placed my reservations about this venue on record and I can say that I have personal knowledge of many members of the community and many friends and family members that would like to attend these hearings but due to the fact that it's being held here and it's not only the size of this venue, but it's also the distance, the expenditure attached to that, that the hearing be moved, Mr Chairperson.  There is a suitable venue in Athlone itself and that's the Civic Centre.  I don't know whether it would be available but I think that should be considered and personally maybe I think I should also as a member that comes from out of the Kewtown community, I think I should tell Mr van Zyl that his fears are groundless, I don't think there's any single member who would want to kill him and I sincerely don't believe that his life is in danger.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, we need to catch a plane.  This Committee is not a Court of Appeal.  There's a Court Order by a judge, this issue has been debated, there's a Court Order, we'll abide the Court Order so a decision has been made, let's stay away from this.  This Committee has got no basis - if they want to alter the venue they can do it subject to our reservational rights.  Unfortunately all that we've heard here being placed on record has been dealt with fully in affidavits before a judge has made a decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no we're aware of that there's been a decision made, Mr Martini, but I'm also fully aware of the anxiety of the victims and a change of venue, I can assure you, would be done in consultation with yourselves.  We had hoped that despite the fact that there's a Court Order, it's not a question of losing face or anything like that, that maybe an agreement can come about with regard to the change of a new venue because I think that where we're sitting now and we're very grateful to have been able to have been given this venue at such short notice, it's not entirely adequate, we're all sitting packed in here, people can watch what other people are writing and all sorts of things, they can hear other people's whisperings, it's not very convenient so endeavours will be made to find an alternative venue, but I can assure you it's not being done to score points or to put stress or anything on anybody, it's just done in an honest endeavour to get something that's more convenient and more acceptable for all of the people and there won't be anything done that will catch you by surprise, it will be done by consensus hopefully with all the persons concerned.  Can we leave it at that?

MR MARTINI: Well our rights on the venue are strictly reserved.

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise I'll carry on talking until you miss your aeroplane.  Thank you, we'll now adjourn, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS