Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

MR KOOPEDI: May I find out if you would prefer calling the next applicant now?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases the Commission.  We will call the next applicant.

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: (sworn states)

MR KOOPEDI: May I explain, Honourable Chair, that the applicant prefers to give evidence in Sotho and that is why you may have missed: "So help me God", it was said in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: What are his full names?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: It's Masoba Khuntwana Hendrik van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that you may not have to cover the entire ground that was covered by the previous applicant, except to the extent that he may have a version which might in some way be different from what the previous applicant has said.

MR KOOPEDI: May I take the Honourable Commission into my confidence, that we in fact discussed this matter with Advocate Steenkamp, my learned friend, and I did advise him that I do not intend repeating what is not necessary and most probably what one would do will be to deal with his personal details and then get to the events of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases.
	Where do you stay?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I'm staying in Kutsaong, in Carltonville.

MR KOOPEDI: At the moment where are you?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: At this time I'm in the Potchefstroom Prison.

MR KOOPEDI: Why are you at the prison, have you been convicted of any offence?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I was sentenced for two accounts of murder.

MR KOOPEDI: It appears you're battling Mr Chair?
	Would you name the two deceased persons?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: It was KK Nxaku and Sedisa.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?

MR KOOPEDI: I think we're having problems with the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now, the interpretation?
Is the interpretation coming through?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: We will proceed.
	Now you say you have been convicted for two counts of murder, I had asked who are the two victims, who are the two people who died?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: It's KK Nxaku and Sedisa.

MR KOOPEDI: Where and when were you convicted?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: It was on the 19th of June in 1992 in Johannesburg Supreme Court in Pritchard Street.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you have applied for amnesty?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: For what offences have you applied for amnesty?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: On these two accounts of murder.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the amnesty was applied for for the two murders referring to the KK Nxaku and the Sedisa matters?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: That's correct Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard what your co-applicant, Mr Mokoena has told this Honourable Committee inasfar as the background relating to the gangsters, is there anything you think you want to add to that?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes, I would like to add something.

MR KOOPEDI: ...[indistinct] would you want to confirm what he said or perhaps deny it?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: There is just one thing I want to add on what he has already said.  I heard him - I want to tell them exactly who killed who.

MR KOOPEDI: My point now was in relation to the background on the gangsters which it's alleged that the two deceased persons belonged to.  We will get to the stage where we speak about the actual killing of the two deceased.  What we need to know is, on the background, on the events before perhaps the assault on your comrade, Mokome, is there anything that you want to add or bring to the attention of the Honourable Committee here?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes, there is.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, please do that.

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: In 1989 I was not a student then, I was just a member of the youth in the township.  On a Monday I saw children returning from school and Mokoena told me that one of their colleagues was stabbed by a gangster member.  I asked him which gang was responsible for this and he told me about KK, Twala and Big Five's gang.
	This gang was well-known in the township and the students said that this group must be hunted down and handed over to the police.  The community of Kutsaong at large went out on this search but in vain, we never found them.  We reported this matter to the police and it was just left with the police.
	In 1991, the very same gang - I was with my fellow colleagues in the Interim Committee of the ANC Youth League there and Cassius Mahuma was the General Secretary and I was the Organiser Secretary.  He told me that the very same gang robbed him and pointed at him with a gun.
	At the very same year in August 1991, Matsaba's family were attacked by the very same gang and that is when a child died in this event.  
	In September before ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Please let the speaker slow down, we cannot get the interpretation clearly.

MR KOOPEDI: We've noted the interpreters comment, thank you.
	Perhaps let's centre on the issues around your comrade Mokome, do you know what happened to him and if you can take us through that.

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: It was on a Saturday, I was with him, comrade Mokome and comrade Gustaff.  We were in Block 8 at comrade Magadi's place.  Comrade Mokome - it was about 6 o'clock in the evening, he told us that he had somewhere to go.
	We asked to accompany him and he agreed because it was his friend's place and there was a party there and we went with comrade Mokome there.  As we were sitting there there was this other group in this other room and there were some girls from the same section who were in the other room.  
	As we were sitting there this comrade went to see this friend of his who had invited us to the party, and when he came back he came back with three drinks and put them on the table and comrade Mokome who was stabbed, he left our table and joined this group of girls.  
	As he was sitting amongst these girls, Big Five and Malgas arrived, and when they got there they went straight through to talk to Mr Mokome.  As they were talking to Mr Mokome, Big Five drew a knife.  As he did that I stood, myself and Gustaff and approached, we approached Big Five and disarmed him, we took his knife from him and we wanted to know why he was doing this.  He just said that comrade Mokome shouldn't talk to their girlfriends and comrade Mokome is a very forward person, he shouldn't talk to their girlfriends.
	We took comrade Mokome away from them and let him join us at our table again.  As he was sitting there these gang took these girls away.  As we were sitting here in this party, comrade Boyki and comrade Steve van Rooyen came in and Mr Mokome told them about this incident that had just occurred.
	It was about half an hour as we were sitting there, Mr Mokome told us that he had to go home and we let him go.  He was with comrade Kati ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could you kindly go a little bit slower.