Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And the Committee also.

GEORGE BIZOS: My voice was not in question form.  You were in the dock and did you watch and listen, watch your wife giving evidence in her own defence and listened to her evidence particularly carefully?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, I did Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You heard her evidence.  Did she tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as she took the oath to do?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, with regard to what Mr Chairman,  can Mr Bizos indicate with regard to what, it is a very broad, wide statement, she gave lengthy evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: And I would like an answer to the broad question from the witness, Mr Chairman.  Did your wife tell the trial court the truth or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to answer that question Mr Chairman, because I believe that there is too much encompassed in, pages and pages of testimony and I actually don't remember what she testified.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but you see when you were sitting there and your wife was giving evidence, and she was giving evidence what passed between you and her, did it not occur to you in any particular occasion that she was possibly not telling the whole truth?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that took place in October 1993, I can't be expected to remember everything that happened during that time and during the interrogation to me, even.  It is a long time ago.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will make a request to you please Mr Derby-Lewis, whether you would be good enough during the weekend, you are not obliged to do it, it is a request, if you would read through your wife's evidence and tell us which portions were true and which portions were not true, if any.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you do that?  You can even discuss it with your wife if she visits you on a daily basis, if you like, but please tell us which portions of the evidence you agree with and which portions of the evidence given by your wife, before the Judge President, may have been incorrect.  Will you do that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am prepared to read through the testimony and I am prepared then to come back and say which evidence I am aware of to be the truth and which I am totally unaware of.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Let me just refer to a portion of Mr Walus' statement on page 88 of R4.  There is a statement by the accused 1 and now the first applicant,
"Weapon and the list was handed over by Clive Derby-Lewis"
Is that a correct statement?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is a correct statement Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, with respect, first of all it doesn't appear to me to be a statement signed by Mr Walus.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... is said to have been made, but in any event it doesn't matter because you say it is correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I am quite happy to say that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now can't you remember being in court and your wife giving complicated evidence of how the list must have got mixed up with newspaper cuttings and accused 1 must have taken it away by mistake?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I remember that Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You remember that evidence.  And whilst you sat there you knew that she was not telling the truth?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I knew that she didn't know how Mr Walus got the list Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you tell her?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we were afforded virtually, actually no opportunity of private communication during all the time of our detention.  We were listened to with each visit.  I have been informed by members of Correctional Services staff that they even taped confidential, legal discussions when I was consulting with my lawyer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis ...(intervention)

MR DERBY-LEWIS: So we said very little to one another about this case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us forget about what happened after your and/or her arrest.  When you heard that Chris Hani had been murdered, and you knew that you had given the list to the first applicant,  and didn't you from the time you heard of the murder of Hani and the time that you were arrested, didn't your wife ask you what had happened to the list or didn't you say to her that you had given the list to Walus, the first applicant?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Is this when I was detained in prison that Advocate Bizos is talking about Mr Chairman, I am sorry I am having a bit of problems focusing because I am very tired.

JUDGE WILSON: He said from the time of the murder till the time of your arrest.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: From the time of the murder to the time of my arrest,  yes, okay, can Advocate Bizos please just repeat that question Mr Chairman?  I've got the timeframe now.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you,  between the time of the murder and the time of your arrest, didn't you and your wife discuss what happened to the list that you had and your wife had for whatever purpose she may have had it and whether or not it had been handed over to Walus or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because it wasn't, it was a minor detail.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was a minor detail?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The list itself Mr Chairman, it was not a hitlist as was released by the police, it was an address list, it wasn't an important factor.  The factor, the most important factor was the fact that a man had been assassinated.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that was the thing that occupied our minds.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but you know that the man which had been assassinated was on a list which you and your fellow applicant had discussed and had even decided on the order of assassination.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Order of priority, Mr Chairman, as I testified.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, don't let's quibble with such niceties about murder Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, to suggest that we were going to murder somebody like Ken Owen or people like that, it is ridiculous.

GEORGE BIZOS: Don't let's talk about Ken Owen, let's talk about the person that was actually murdered.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Ken Owen was on the list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us talk about the person that was actually murdered.  His name was on the list which you and your wife had discussed.  Not so?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which she had shown to me in Cape Town.

GEORGE BIZOS: And it was a list on which Hani's name was, which you had handed over to the man that you knew had pulled the trigger?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman, but it was pure coincidence, in terms of that list, that Hani's address was on the list because there were far more names than nine submitted for that information.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you heard that Hani had been murdered and you knew his name on the list, and you knew that Walus had killed Hani, didn't you and your wife ask one another where was the list, particularly as there was a disclosure that the list had been found with Walus upon his arrest,  didn't you and your wife discuss the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: We discussed it on Monday as I testified Mr Chairman, on the 12th of April with Arthur Kemp who questioned whether the list mentioned was anything to do with the list that he had drawn up on her behalf.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, you were clear in your mind that you had given the list to Walus?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell your wife that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: On the 12th of April, yes Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: On the 12th, so your wife knew that you had given the list to Walus?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Don't you recall her giving evidence, your wife was accused 3, wasn't she?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman, she was.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you please have a look at page 527 of the record of her evidence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already given Advocate Bizos the undertaking that I will go over the evidence ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: It is R1, R1 on page 667.