Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR WILLS: Now, in the light of your obvious concession that you considered your application seriously, prior to signing it, I am wanting to put to you that how you tried to testify earlier, ie about this being a sort of bundled operation and the wrong person being arrested, is actually incorrect and I want to quote because your evidence is actually consistent with Mr Taylor, your evidence is consistent with Mr Coetzer, your evidence is consistent with Mr, should I say your statement, I am referring to here is consistent with Mr Mbane, and Mr Radebe because you say
"...  the purpose of the operation was to arrest four MK members who were to infiltrate from Swaziland and report at the facility."
	I am quoting from page 156.  Do you agree?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes.

MR WILLS: Well, that is common cause, that is what you say.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct  Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You then go on to say p
"...  the askari had to determine when they would arrive."
	The important problem that I have, is your next sentence where you say -
"... after six weeks the cadres had not arrived and the askari's version of events was being questioned by Capt Botha."
	In other words that implies to me that at that stage, Capt Botha had come to the realisation as has been the testimony previously of others, that the askaris weren't capable of doing their jobs?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said in my evidence, this is what was relayed to me by Col Taylor.  I cannot comment on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I could just put one point on this before I forget, Mr Wills.   I have heard in various hearings Mr Baker, that the usual practice was to deploy your people, C1 people, askaris and others, usually for a period of three weeks to wherever, be it Boksburg, Jozini, Durban, wherever, and then they would come back to Vlakplaas for about a week and then teams would be deployed again.  After six weeks, that is now getting quite long, isn't it, it is an unusual length of time for a deployment?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, they had been there for an extended period.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: And ...

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to know that, that was unusual, it wasn't the normal sort of in for three weeks, back again out?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (Microphone not on)

MR WILLS: Just to be clear, Mr Baker, I am asking you what was in your mind, I realise that this was in the context of your discussion with Taylor, but from what you have said here, it indicates that Taylor conveyed to you that the askaris had not done their job in the sense that they hadn't yet after some time, identified the four MK cadres and as a consequence of that, it was decided and this is what Taylor is referring to here, that the woman who was supposed to have given the askaris that information, would be arrested for interrogation?  That is how I read this?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I feel that if they were to have arrested the woman, there wouldn't have been, or picked up the woman, there wouldn't have been a necessity of getting her at Battery Beach, they could have brought her directly to the facility, because he had befriended the woman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: The woman knew him.

MR WILLS: Sorry, can you answer my question with respect?  As I understand your English that you use here, there is only one implication that the four people, the information regarding the four freedom fighters was not coming quickly enough to Taylor or to Botha and as a result of that, the action had to be shortcut and in order to get this information, it was decided to arrest the woman?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is not so Mr Chairman.  I wasn't aware of instructions to the askaris before they left.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Wills is putting to you is from the way it is stated, from that sentence commencing "after six weeks" through to "Amanzimtoti", the last two sentences of the first paragraph or second paragraph on page 156, what Mr Wills is putting to you is would you agree that an interpretation of what is stated there, is that after six weeks, Mr Botha became impatient or had the feeling that the askaris weren't being  effective in achieving their intended objective of getting these four cadres and therefore the deceased was brought in, Ms Khubeka was brought in.  That is what he is saying if you read that, just take a look at those two sentences and see what interpretation you can put on those two sentences.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have stated that this is what was told to me by Mr Taylor, that the version was being questioned by Capt Botha because the person was not forthcoming and then the very next sentence, that the askari had gone to meet with her and that she was apprehended by Capt Botha and his team and brought to the base near Amanzimtoti.  Actually what I have done there is I have shortened the whole version.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are saying now is what Mr Wills, you don't agree with what Mr Wills put to you about the interpretation of this?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I mean he can interpret it in that way, I cannot say what the instructions were prior to that, if he interprets it as such, Mr Wills, that is his interpretation.

MR WILLS: You see what is very strange to me, nowhere in your affidavit do you say that anybody was the slightest bit surprised when this woman arrived.  Why is that, that would have been something that I would have put if that had been the original plan?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on the people's reaction as to what they have done, I don't know what they were expecting at that stage.  I myself was expecting a terrorist, and I didn't - I saw this woman, I only heard she was not a terrorist when I was told she was not a terrorist.

MR WILLS: Where do you say that in your application?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I didn't say it in my application, Mr Wills, it came out during examination.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that you are not being truthful with us.  I put it to you that you have heard the evidence of your four colleagues and you are just trying to support them and as a result you are not telling the truth, because that isn't what your statement says at all.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I think that is Mr Wills' interpretation.

MR WILLS: Well, it seems to be also Mr Coetzer's interpretation.  No doubt as a senior officer, you would also have dealings with Mr Coetzer, not so?  He was your immediate subordinate?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And you would find out exactly what he was doing in the operation, you would know that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I said earlier, I had not seen Mr Coetzer prior to  Ms Khubeka arriving at the base.  I hadn't yet spoken to him.

MR WILLS: Well, let me tell you what Mr Coetzer says in paragraph 7 of his affidavit, it is somewhere after page 101.  Mr Coetzer says that the plan was, sorry
"... I was informed by one of the members of the Security Branch, that the leader of the ANC cell which had been infiltrated by Jimmy Mbane, was a woman.   The plan was to interrogate her."
	So you disagree?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, just for record purposes, page 102, paragraph 7.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on Mr Coetzer's recollection.  As I say, I did not know what the instructions were prior to her being arrested.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Baker, if I may Mr Wills, what you would concede is that Coetzer would be closer to the operation than you?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: And he would have a much closer working knowledge of what actually happened on that day?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, he was part of the operation.