Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, what do you mean when you say his evidence in '96 stands when the man has on oath before us said something different?  We have to evaluate the evidence.  You can't say it stands.

ADV PRIOR: Yes I - sorry I agree with that, it's obviously at the end the day have to be evaluated as to it's veracity and reliability.
	Well, when you consulted with Rosslee, was it at that stage that you made it clear that he was mistaken and you were correct that you had not informed them as set out in his amnesty application at page 24?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well it is correct, I had not informed them.

ADV PRIOR: No, you had no recollection of that particular event, you were then confronted or you were informed that Rosslee had made the statement saying that you had in fact informed them of the two accused being acquitted, is that not correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That was in his statement, I read it.

ADV PRIOR: You read it and then you then what?  Did you deny that or did you ...[intervention]

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Of course I did Mr Chairman, it was incorrect.

ADV PRIOR: You never said I had no recollection of that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, I denied it.

ADV PRIOR: And similarly with the allegation that you were present during this interrogation of Bhila at the pistol club?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I denied that, it was incorrect.

ADV PRIOR: But you agree do you not, that the body was disposed of in an area which was an IFP stronghold?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Even that is not a hundred percent correct in my knowledge, it was an area riddled by faction fighting but I'm not - at that point in time there was no clear lines between IFP strongholds and ANC.  One cannot actually go ahead and say that was an IFP area, that would be incorrect I feel, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: So the idea was not to dispose of the body in an IFP area and obviously if the body was discovered everyone would assume that it was as a result of the - of faction fighting or something similar?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't know the area.  I wasn't given the story about it, I was told to accompany Mr Lembedi to an area that he knew.

ADV PRIOR: This Operation Butterfly, you were involved in the investigation rounding the events or the circumstances and following up on the arrests of various activists, is that correct, involved?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Is the person Tami Zulu known to you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And Ralph Lawrence?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The late Ralph Lawrence.

ADV PRIOR: Both of them?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes they're both known to me.

ADV PRIOR: Where did the information come from regarding Operation Butterfly, was it those two persons?  Was it those two persons Mr Wasserman?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was handling neither of those two persons so I do not know.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying you had no knowledge?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I had no knowledge of those two persons assisting me with information.

ADV PRIOR: According to your investigation, Bhila had only been implicated in the bombing of the Lamontville township office, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And apart from receiving training internally, he would have been trained by one Dhlomo, according to the indictment and the summary of facts, he'd received training during I think May of the one year?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I'm waiting for the question?

ADV PRIOR: Well did you know that or ...[intervention]

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I was aware that he had been - he had received military training inside.

ADV PRIOR: Yes and that he had been in fact indicted in respect of his training but the acts that he was responsible for was the Lamontville blast where structural damage was caused but no loss of life?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I am aware of that yes.

ADV PRIOR: That was the only activity that he had been involved up until the stage of the trial, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is not strictly correct, I think that was correct enough for a legal indictment.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying the police had more information, more evidence against Bhila but had not presented it to the Attorney General?

CHAIRPERSON: But there are other things mentioned in the indictment, Mr Prior.  His participation in the decision to kill Gideon Sibiya, that he established DLB's for the use of equipment.  These are offences, are they not?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So how can you say all - the only things they were aware of was the training in the Lamontville bombing?

ADV PRIOR: And his training, his military training.

CHAIRPERSON: Two episodes of training.

ADV PRIOR: I'm alive to that Mr Chairman, I simply wanted to distinguish that there was only one, in fact he was linked to one bomb blast.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was linked to one bomb blast but other - there were other things in the indictment about the person Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Could you not have dealt with Bhila in any other way, other than killing him, I mean could he have not been detained?  Further detained, Section 29?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: According to Major Taylor the decision had been made, his activities were continuing.

ADV PRIOR: So a decision had been made to eliminate him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: On the day Major Taylor told me he was to be eliminated.

ADV PRIOR: Did you get the impression that it was Taylor's decision or someone above or someone other than Taylor that had made that decision?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I can't comment on that decision.

ADV PRIOR: Well what was your impression?  You said it had been decided?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, what would a Detective Sergeant have an impression, how does one get an impression that it's gone higher than the Major talking to you, there's no possible way that I could have made an impression that it went from somebody else?

CHAIRPERSON: If he said to you "we have decided" it would create an impression that it went somewhere else?  It's perfectly easy for it to create an impression.  I think you're being a little evasive there.  It depends on how Major Taylor told you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He said he had made.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Wasserman, I agree with to a certain extent what you say in paragraph 39 of Exhibit G.  I don't quite understand how you - why you were involved at all because on your version that you've given this Committee you seem to have done absolutely nothing to assist in killing Bhila other than being present?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman, one will see in further applications things are different, however this one is as outlined.

ADV PRIOR: Was this a training run?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: A training run of what?

ADV PRIOR: Well of things to come?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Definitely not, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: You see, I also have difficulty why Rosslee and McCarter would have been asked to kill Bhila, it could have been done by any member of the Durban branch, the Durban office?  Would you agree?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: One can suppose so but it never happened like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand from that, that you dispute that they were asked to kill Bhila?

ADV PRIOR: No not at all but what I want to suggest to this witness that his lack of activity on the day doesn't make sense, in fact what Rosslee had stated in his amnesty application, you would be, certainly have been involved at the level of interrogating Bhila at the pistol club?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That's incorrect, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And if Rosslee is also correct when he says the information was there were two people acquitted and both had to be arrested and eliminated, certainly one would have expected Bhila to be questioned where the other person was, Nxiweni?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We knew where Nxiweni was.

ADV PRIOR: So why wasn't he eliminated at the same time?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It's not my decision Mr Chairman, I have no idea to that, I can't answer that one.