Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: As I explained from the start, the residents took a decision that SDU's should be formed.  As the ANC Youth League were patrolling, therefore they fell under SDU's, they were assimilated within the SDU structure because they couldn't afford the structure to have SDU's patrolling separately from ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Insofar as Moleleki is concerned, that of course would have occurred later because as I understand your evidence the SDU's were formed in 1991.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Moleleki only came into existence in 1992.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So one has the position where in 1992 Moleleki was patrolled by the ANC Youth League.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Notwithstanding the fact that the SDU's were patrolling the other sections.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In 1992, there were two blocks, there were no more - not many people, and that area was patrolled by ANC Youth League and then after other sections were established therefore those sections were patrolled by SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1991, was there a Moleleki section in Katlehong?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: 1991?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was when it was still established it did not have more that a hundred people in that particular section.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was already there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct, it was there.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was patrolled at the time by the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I have no evidence in that regard because I arrived in 1992, then when I arrived it was patrolled by SDU's and I didn't know what happened in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I suppose - what I'm trying to clarify is that I understand that in 1991 a decision was taken that the SDU's should patrol the whole of Katlehong of Moleleki was a part, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: As I said before, that Moleleki section was still under construction.  In 1991 I was not in Moleleki section.  I arrived there in 1992 and what happened in 1991 I will not be able to tell this Committee.
	I arrived there in 1992, then I know that SDU's, ANC Youth League was patrolling and when I arrived there I patrolled with them.  Then in that time the residents decided that there should be SDU's who would patrol the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Before ...[inaudible] Moleleki, where were you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was in Seloma.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that part of Katlehong?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you then in 1992, as an SDU member you patrolled together with the ANC Youth League.  Yes, I understand, thank you.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Sorry, you also said, if I heard you correctly, that before the SDU was formed in Moleleki the Youth League was assimilated in the SDU structures, can you explain that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: ANC Youth League were assimilated by the SDU structure, we were together with them like some of them who are here who are some of the applicants, remained with the SDU's.

MR MALAN: Were you at that stage involved in an SDU structure in Saloma?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: So you were a member of another SDU before you went to Moleleki?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: If you say the Youth League was assimilated, does that mean that you knew the Youth League representatives already in the zonal structure for instance?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?  Do you mean ANC Youth League members who were in zonal structure?

MR MALAN: Yes, from Moleleki.  If there wasn't an SDU, who represented them in the zonal structure of the Katlehong area?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In the zonal structures of the SDU's there were no members of the ANC Youth League.  The ANC Youth League volunteered to patrol that section, not that they were in contact with the zonal structure.

MR MALAN: So they weren't assimilated, they were simply patrolling?  They weren't part of the SDU structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They volunteered.

MR MALAN: Did they volunteer to the community or did they volunteer to the SDU structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When I asked them, they said to us: "The residents contributed money so that they should buy arms.  I know that a member of the civic association ran with the money, then when I arrived there they did not have material to patrol that particular section or area.

MR MALAN: No, I'm referring to the period before you arrived, because you gave evidence as to the condition in Moleleki before you arrived.  You say
"At that time it was patrolled by the Youth League"
and you said: 
"They were assimilated in the SDU structures"
now who told you that, how did you know that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: During the residents meeting when they decided to have a SDU, that is where the zonal commander met and formed sectional SDU's in Moleleki included with ANC Youth League in the sectional SDU in Moleleki.

MR MALAN: Were they then all, the Youth League all appointed or elected as SDU members?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They volunteered to be part of the SDU.

MR MALAN: And were they accepted as part of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were welcomed with two hands Sir.

MR MALAN: Can I just pursue their status.  Were the members of the Youth League, when the SDU was formed in Moleleki, were they fully fledged members of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Others were not members of the SDU and others volunteered in Moleleki to be members of the SDU's but I was a member of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that any member of the community who subscribed to the views of the community i.e. protection of the community, could become a member of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was not easy for anybody from the community to volunteer, there was a certain number that was supposed to form SDU's, not everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but anyone could volunteer regarding of the person's political affiliation, as long as he was prepared to subscribe to the views of what the SDU's stood for.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Thank you Chairperson.  People who were allowed to volunteer were members of the PAC, ANC, members of the civics, not members of the IFP, they were not allowed.  These are the only structures that I've mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: So these persons from these parties then served together in the SDU, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were serving together Mr Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	So your evidence is that Moleleki before 1992, before you came to Moleleki in 1992, that section was still under construction, not completed and because of that it was not yet organised, it had not yet had an organised SDU structure.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  When I arrived there it was not well organised, even the civic organisation of Moleleki was not yet a section because it only had two blocks.  It was not well organised when I arrived there.

MR MADASA: When was Moleleki completed as a section? Was it completed in 1992 or 1993, I mean the building?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: 1992 and in 1993 people were moving in.

MR MADASA: When the last block, that is block 7, completed, which year?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was in 1993 if I'm not mistaken because there was a problem, people could not occupy their houses because of the violence and that is why you see the open space that existed.  People started moving in in 1993.

MR MADASA: Now, when was it decided that there should be an SDU formed in Moleleki?  Which year, in 1992 or 1993?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: 1992.

MR MADASA: What time in 1992, the beginning of the year, middle or the end of the year?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was towards the end of 1992, October or September around there.

MR MADASA: Was that SDU formed as a result of a meeting by the community?