Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

WHITE MOHAPE: We, like, when I ran downstairs I was called by a teacher on, when the other time he thought I am the one who is going to be shooting students around, and he begged that, you know, I speak to him and then we went to the library.  I explained to him that we are having, you know, this gun and then ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: I am sorry.  So, you had the gun in your possession, in fact?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, in my hand and then we, I explained everything to him and then he requested, you know, passionately that, you know, I give that to him and we wait for the police to come and it is exactly what I did and ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: All right.  And were the police then called?

WHITE MOHAPE: The police were called, yes, uniformed SAP.

MR VISSER: And did they arrive at the school or what?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, they arrived at school.  I think they arrived after 30 minutes after that incident.

MR VISSER: Okay and was the gun handed over to them?

WHITE MOHAPE: Well, at that time when the gun was handed to the police I was not present ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Okay.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... because what happened is that when they were there, I was then requested by the principal to explain to students, because a lot of kids were outside, were confused and then I was requested to explain to the kids what has happened and it is in that, you know, minute when I was explaining to student, you know, perhaps the gun was given to the police, I ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... and then simultaneously Ngo was able to escape.

MR VISSER: Did you ever hear anything about that gun again?

WHITE MOHAPE: In the court, if I can recollect, there was an argument later in court that that was not a proper gun.

MR VISSER: Ja.

WHITE MOHAPE: There was also an argument that that was not in Ngo's hip, it was a plastic gun that had other towels in a plastic and Ngo was taking those things to his parents, you know, and it was very odd to hear that kind of statement coming from the State, you know.

MR VISSER: In other words, was it, in fact, Mr Ngo's evidence or version that it was not a real gun, it was a play, plastic, play gun?  Is that what you are telling us?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, it was, what it was put on record if I can recall.

MR VISSER: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what trial was this?

MR VISSER: This was the ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: When I was, subsequent to the attack when I was charged.

CHAIRPERSON: So, this attack, when you took the gun from Ngo that is when Ngo was stabbed?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Several times.

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say it, obviously, could not have been very serious, because he managed to escape?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, I cannot say it was, I could not determine if he had serious wounds, you know, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, but did you not say ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: ... but he ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... he escaped?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, he ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: While you were addressing the students Ngo managed to escape.

WHITE MOHAPE: Let me correct that quickly so that you, we do not confuse the two.  When I took the gun, like, you see, he was on the floor, I was on top of him, wrestling to take the gun away from him and I managed to do that.  There were kicks, like I said, I even myself was kicked, you know.  You know, during that small commotion on the ground I managed to stand up and ran away as that teacher was pulling me at the back and when I ran, because we were in the first floor, when I ran, I ran downstairs and, apparently, Ngo also stood up and ran in the same direction I was running into and he was being chased, you know.  So, I could not know what happened the minute I stood up and ran away with the gun, I could not certain, you know, that the type of wounds that was sustained by Ngo, if they were serious or not, but he got stabbed, because it was said in the court those wounds that he got was during that commotion.  It is why I fully agreed with that and then he ran to the Administration Block where he barricaded himself in one office and students barricaded the whole entrance, but then at that moment it was the time when I was asked by the teachers and principal to explain to student in the assembly what has happened and when I was busy explaining to student then Ngo managed to escape from the administration and ran to security branch car that was waiting outside the yard of the school.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what I meant, he had not suffered injuries that incapacitated him, ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... he was able to get up and run away.

WHITE MOHAPE: You are right.

MR VISSER: And was this gun, this revolver, was that an exhibit in the court case?

WHITE MOHAPE: That is why I am saying to you in court, if I can recollect, it was no longer a normal gun that I saw.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see.

WHITE MOHAPE: It was said it was a toy and that toy had some towels in a plastic and Ngo was taking those things for his sister's son, something of that sort.  It was very ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Was it the same gun as the one that you took ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: No, it was, that, the one that was presented was a toy.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not the gun you had taken away from him ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... and given to the teacher?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Knowing that Ngo was, in fact, working in collaboration with security branch, that strange set-up, I am sure, did not surprise you?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, it did not, it really did not.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, is it being suggested to the witness that it should be taken for granted that because Ngo worked for the security branch, that the security branch would have arranged for exhibits to be tampered with?  Is that the suggestion?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The suggestion is that he was not surprised, Mr Visser.  If you want to read anything further into it, you can do so.

WHITE MOHAPE: Can I say something, perhaps?  Can I say something please?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.