Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

DR RANDERA: But you still leave the house without those young people on that particular day and without even asking to see the young people.

TATO MOTLANA: I'd gone there to ask for the release of the young people because I'd been asked to do so, it never occurred to me in the course of my GP practice in Soweto that I should go to Mrs Mandela and say: "I believe there are children who are being held against their will in your house".  ...[inaudible] I only referred to that because I was asked and the whole thing - if I may say so Mr Chairman, relates back to what had hurt the church namely, the allegations against Paul Verryn.  And from then on there's a whole sequence of events and I got involved over the story of Paul Verryn.
 When I first got involved it was really was to say to Mrs Mandela: "There have been these stories about abuse, sodomising of the children, please just stop talking about that".  The next time was to say to Mrs Mandela: "There are children about whom there are stories that they are being held against their will, shall we have them released" and I thought - if I may say so, I've been successful in having them released to the custody of the church.

DR RANDERA: Doctor Motlana, with the greatest of respect to you, the release that you're talking about takes place almost 10 days after your first meeting.  I think we've got to actually - I mean, what we're trying to understand here today, I take your point about the allegations against Bishop Verryn, the Reverend Verryn at the time, but we've heard several time from Frank Chikane today, from Sydney Mufamadi that the key concern on their part - and I hope on the part of the leaders and you yourself besides being a friend and an eminent GP in the area, you too were a leader in the community, so the concern was for these young people.
 And I think I want to understand from you whether you actually took that concern with you and why it actually took almost 7 to 10 days before these young people were released.

TATO MOTLANA: Then you must put those issues in context.  There was formed in Soweto as you very well know, the Crisis Committee and it was that Crisis Committee that sought to interact with Mrs Mandela, I was not part of that Crisis Committee.

MR MADLOPA: Mr Chairperson, again it is not within the ...[indistinct] of my client to have ensured that the children were release immediately, he was not the so-called - or under a quotation mark "the person who was actually restraining them", so the question is unfair in the first place to ask him as to why he did not ensure that the children were released.

DR RANDERA: Chairperson, I understand that the young lawyer representing Doctor Motlana has got concerns but I'm just going by Doctor Motlana's own statement where he says
"To intervene and attempt to have the said minors released"
You I'm sure helped Doctor Motlana prepare this statement, so I'm going by your own statement Sir, not by anything coming out of my own head.  
 So you went there with the explicit intention of wanting to have these young people released.

TATO MOTLANA: It just occurs to me Mr Chairman, that having had them released - to be fair and just, is the purpose of my visit.  I admit there was a time delay of 10 days, is it that important?

DR RANDERA: Doctor Motlana, the 10 day period is important - sorry, I don't want to get into a dialogue, my last point Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: But we know now that a gross human rights violation took place, a young boy by the name of Stompie Seipei died.  Now, when you went there you weren't aware that he was dead already at that time or may have been dead already and it was that concern I think that most people - that we've heard today from the Committee, that was the concern that I think you went with.  And it's that issue that I'm wrestling with myself in terms of understanding but that's my point.

CHAIRPERSON: Hlengiwe?  No?  Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Mr Chair.  Doctor Motlana, just for the record, the only way I think in which you refer to those minors as children is when you attributed the word to your wife on page three of your statement.
 Now, there was a reply that you gave that was very interesting and that was you said: "Perhaps I was just happy to have taken the three away that I found".  Now, when you went to intervene, were you aware that there was a person by the name of Stompie who had also allegedly been taken away from the Methodist Manse?

TATO MOTLANA: I must have been aware Mr Chairman, it was common knowledge, it had been spoken about, reported about, so I must have been aware.

MR NTSEBEZA: And subsequent to your discussions with Bishop as to whether there was one or two or three, were you aware that also central to the concerns expressed was the fact that there was fear that the extent of the assault that were alleged to have taken place on the youths at the house, may have cost - certainly Stompie, his life or was that never discussed in those sort of terms even as a concern?

TATO MOTLANA: No, it was not discussed in those terms.

MR NTSEBEZA: But was it your impression when you went there that amongst the other minors - children - young people, Stompie was one of those whose release ought to have been secured?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, it must have been but there were only three children as I've said, who were released to me.

MR NTSEBEZA: And did you become aware when you personally drove them to the office of Mr Naidoo that Stompie was not amongst those?

TATO MOTLANA: I was aware Mr Chairman, that Stompie was not ...[inaudible]

MR NTSEBEZA: And can you tell us how you felt - if you felt anything, knowing that one of the persons whose release you had to secure was Stompie and now you were going away from that house without him?

TATO MOTLANA: I cannot explain that Mr Chairman, in the first place I didn't know how many of those young people will be released into my care and when I got the three - as I've indicated, I thought it was partial victory.  I didn't ask about Stompie, I wasn't sure what had happened to Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SEMENYA: May I - arising out of this, just deal with two issues with the doctor, I propose not to be long.
 Doctor, just for linguistic correctness - I hear these words are being used very loosely, did you have a negotiation as we had it with our democratisation with Mrs Mandela or you had a discussion about these children to be for now released?  Was it a negotiation or was it a discussion that the children should be released for this purpose?

TATO MOTLANA: I'm not quite clear what you mean by negotiation or ...[intervention]

MR SEMENYA: Discussion.  Did you discuss the release of the children or were you negotiating because to my mind this negotiation entails two adversaries negotiating a middle position, that is why I'm saying for linguistic correctness, do you consider your discussion with Mrs Mandela to be a discussion or a negotiation because the two concepts are miles apart?

TATO MOTLANA: Now, I've got a real problem, I studied science I didn't study linguistics and as far as I'm concerned we scientists are exact, we don't waste time over the nuances and meaning of words you know.
 Let me repeat, I went to Mrs Mandela to request her to release these minors into my care so I can pass them on to somebody else.  Whether that amounts to a discussion or negotiation Mr Chairman, really I can't tell you.