Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR GOLLACH: MR DORFLING

MR GOLLACH: "Waar was u op daardium stadium?

WITNESS:  Ek was reg tussen die wagte gewees op die sypaadjie, reg langs Shell House gewees, op die suid-westelike hoek."

MR GOLLACH: Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR GOLLACH: MR DORFLING

MR GOLLACH: "En as ek u se hulle het gese hulle gaan skiet, het almal gelyk gepraat, het een persoon gepraat?

WITNESS:  Nee, dit was - die spanning het hoog geloop.  Die mense, die sekuriteitswagte het die heeltyd vir my gese hulle gaan op die mense skiet.  Ek het die heeltyd met hulle terruggepraat in Engels en gese hulle moennie skiet nie, aangesien ek nie gedink het op daardie stadium dit is nodig dat hulle moet skiet nie."

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR GOLLACH: MR DORFLING

MR GOLLACH: "En wat was u reaksie as u se hulle moennie skiet nie?

WITNESS:  Dit was die heeltyd het hulle vir my gese hulle gaan skiet.  Dit het vir my voorgekom asof hulle baie gespanne was en gereed was om te skiet.  Ek het die gemoedere die heeltyd kalmeer, en vir hulle gese om nie te skiet nie."

MR GOLLACH: 		"Op daardie stadium toe u nou met hierdie wagte gepraat het, die groep wat nou in aantog was, het u enigiets agtergekom uit hulle houding uit, het u enigiets gehoor van daardie kant af?

WITNESS:  Nee, ek kon niks uit hulle houding opermerk.  Ek weet nie wat u spesifiek bedoel nie, houdings soos in?"

MR GOLLACH: 		"U se u het nie gedink dit is nodig vir die wagte om te skiet nie, hoekom se u so?

WITNESS:  Hulle het aangehou loop oor die kruising, getoyi-toyi in die sin van dans toyi-toyi, en ek het die laaste keer opgemerk toe hulle verby Van Reenen-hulle beweeg in die kruising, steeds waar ek die heeltyd met die ANC wagte probeer onderhandel het.  Ek het nie daarna weer gekyk wat die houding was, en enigiets van die aard nie, wat dit was nie."

MR GOLLACH: 		"Goed, wat gebeur toe?

WITNESS:  Die ANC wagte wat op diehoek was waar ons gestaan het was gewapen met handwapens, en onder andere het ek een gesien met 'n AK47 geweer."

MR GOLLACH: Is that evidence correct?"

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.
MR DORFLING
"Ja, die gemoedere het hoog geloop die heeltyd.  Dit was spanningsvol en op 'n stadium het van die ANC wagte begin skiet op die optoggangers."
Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR GOLLACH: MR DORFLING

MR GOLLACH: "Goed u moet probeer om soveel detail ten opsigte van dit aan die Hof te gee wat u kan onthou.  Wie het eerste geskiet en wat het gebeur?

WITNESS:  Ek kan nie onthou wie van die wagte eerste geskiet het nie, maar wat ek wel kan onthou is dat die een met die AK47 het geskiet.  Hy het op die grond gele."

MR GOLLACH: Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: I would just like to make certain that I understand your evidence correctly, are you saying that the first person who shot, shot from within the ranks of the ANC guards?

MR GOLLACH: From where I was standing, where the first shots were fired from was where I was standing with those people who I was with.

MR DORFLING: And then with reference to the man with the AK47

MR DORFLING: "U se hy het op die grond gele en in die rigting van die aankomende optoggangers geskiet?

WITNESS:  Ek het gemerk van waar ek staan dat nog wagte vanuit Shell House kom om te kom aansluit by hierdie groep wat hier gestaan het"

MR DORFLING: Is dit korrek?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.
MR DORFLING
"Ek het op daardie stadium het ek hulle teruggejaag of teruggestuur, ek het vir hulle gese hulle is nie nodig nie, hulle moet teruggaan.  Dadelik het daarvandaan afbeweeg na die hoofingang en ek het hulle teruggestuur in die gebou in, waarop hulle gereageer het.  Hulle het teruggegaan."
Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that is correct.

MR DORFLING: Lastly page 4187, Sergeant, line 18 to 22

MR DORFLING: "Weet u hoe die skietery begin het?

WITNESS:  Ek weet nie hoe die skietery begin het nie, ek kan net getuig dan van die ANC sekuriteitswagte geskiet het, maar ek weet nie wie dit begin het nie.  Ek het nie skote gehoor wat van ander plekke afgekom het nie, ek het net die skote gehoor wat hulle geskiet het."

MR DORFLING: Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: If evidence were to be placed before the Committee which would indicate that from within the crowds shots were fired from the ANC guards, or that that is the impression which was created while you were with the guards, what would your comment be?

MR GOLLACH: I did not notice anything like that, I did not hear any shots coming from the crowd from where I was standing.

MR DORFLING: According to you evidence as I understand today, the first shots which you heard were fired in your immediate environment?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Sergeant, you also confirmed with my learned friend Mr Berger, that when the shooting incident began you moved away from the corner?

MR GOLLACH: When the guard with the AK47 began shooting I moved back to the front, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: The shooting continued thereafter, but you moved away from it?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, with your leave, may I just ask one question to this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VAN WYK: Thank you.  Sergeant, I would like to know, that you mentioned earlier in that morning you were monitoring the radio, and that you went to the corners of Jeppe and Vermeulen Streets?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR VAN WYK: You received a report that there was a person who was shooting at some of the marchers from within a building?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct, Inspector van Reenen was already on the scene.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sergeant following from the questions which have been posed by Mr Dorfling, I just want to know, when this ANC security guard told you that they were about to shoot, was it after both Sergeant van Greunen and Van Reenen had been engulfed by the crowd?

MR GOLLACH: I can't say with certainty where they were at that stage.  I can't say at which stage that took place, I can't even recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE NGCOBO: How long do you need to call Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, provided that I can see Mr Mhlaba tomorrow morning ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes we understand that, but how much time do you need to be able to call Mr Mhlaba, I think that's what we want to establish.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait, how much time you need to find him?  You've had enough time to find him.

MR DORFLING: We've trying to get him here tomorrow morning Mr Chair.   I can't give an undertaking that he would be here, we're trying our best.  Mr Chair, may I just seek your guidance.  The witness Sergeant van Greunen is also present.  He has been subpoenaed for today.  Is there a need for him to attend tomorrow morning?

CHAIRPERSON: Are there questions you wish to put to Greunen as well?

MR DORFLING: Yes Mr Chairman, briefly, we will not detain the Committee long.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now ...

MR VAN GREUNEN: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR TIPP: Sergeant van Greunen, you've been listening to the evidence and you've seen what the process is.  We just want to highlight one or two aspects of what happened at Shell House insofar as it concerns you.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And if you want to answer in Afrikaans, you've heard the ruling, you're very free and welcome to do so.

MR VAN GREUNEN: No it's not a problem.

MR TIPP: Whatever suits you.  Sergeant, you'd been at Shell House throughout the morning, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.