Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-22

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody.  I apologise for the late start in this matter.  It was due to, I believe, a transport problem in getting the applicants here.  It was not the fault of anybody involved in the Commission here, so I apologise.  However, we have started.
	Before we commence I'd just like to introduce the panel to you.  On my right is Advocate Sibongile Sigodi.  She is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an advocate from Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape.  On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee.  He is an attorney from Piermaritzburg.  And I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, from the Transkei Division in particular there.  I can assure you this is the biggest chair I've ever sat in in my life.  It's very comfortable.  
	I'd like the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR PADI: I am Thabo Padi, I appear for Mr Tulani Mlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Padi.

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairperson I am Heiko Draht from the firm Nel Kotze and van Dyk, attorneys in Pretoria.  I am representing Mr Beki Xaba, Mr Alfred Ndlovu, Elias Mbatha and Mr Mpongosi.  Mr Chairperson with me, assisting me, is Mr Chris van der Heyde from JH van der Merwe, attorneys.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chairman my name is Dawie Claassen and I appear today on behalf of Mr Norman Mandlake Mbatha and further matters, Mr John Ngoyani Sitholo and Joseph Magwaza.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Claassen.

MS LOCKHAT: I'm Ms Lynn Lockhat.  I appear on behalf of the Commission, and I also appear on behalf of the victims Mr and Mrs Sekonyana.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat.
	The proceedings today will be simultaneously translated.  In order to benefit from the translation, the interpretation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices.  They are available from the technician in the front.  All you've got to do is just select the channel for the language that you require, and the volume is on the other side.  
	We will be then starting with the applications.  There are two applications set down for this week.  The one we will be starting with today is that of Messrs Mbatha, Xaba and Mlaba.  I believe there are some submissions or something to be said Mr Padi?

MR PADI: Yes Mr Chairman.  It has come to my attention that this, the matter of my client was wrongfully placed on this roll, because he was not involved in the incident that this hearing is relating to, so I therefore request to withdraw this matter from the roll.

MS LOCKHAT: The Commission is aware of that fact, and we do not have a problem in removing the matter from the roll.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I understand that the reason for it is that in his application he made reference to an incident on the 23rd of January, but it wasn't this particular incident involving Messrs Xaba and Mbatha.

MR PADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so the withdrawal is not really a withdrawal of an application as such, it's just a removal from ...(intervention)

MR PADI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then he can be informed that his application relating not only to other incidents but to the one that he refers to on the 23rd will be heard at a later stage, as soon as possible.

MR PADI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Padi.  We then remove Mr Mlaba's matter from the roll for today.
MATTER OF THULANI MLABA: AM NO 4400/96 - REMOVED FROM ROLL

MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You may be excused when you wish.

MR PADI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN COMMITTEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman maybe I would just like to start just once again indicating that in the matter today before this Committee I appear on behalf of Mr Norman Mandlake Mbatha.  Mr Chairman, this application, as the Committee would note from the bundle supplied by the Evidence Leader, I was informed, we had a pre-application discussions the 15th of February this year in the Carlton Centre in Johannesburg with Ms Lockhat during which discussions it came to my attention for the first time that there might be a problem concerning Mr Mbatha's application, specifically with reference to the fact that TRC might functus officio in this matter, seeing that it appears that he has submitted two very different applications, or application Form Ones, and on the basis of that he was already turned down by the TRC.  	Mr Chairman if I might just be afforded the opportunity, if I might refer the Committee to those applications, specifically it would be noted, if I may, on page 13 of the bundle, the application dated the 27th of September 1996 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that September or July?  I couldn't make it out.  But it doesn't really matter.

MR CLAASSEN: It looks like a nine to me, I believe it might be, but it was in 1996.  Mr Chairman concerning this specific application, if I might go back to the front page of this application, page 11, there appears a stamp on it dated the 20th of the twelfth month 1996, and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's the date indicating that it was received by the Commission on that date.

MR CLAASSEN: I believe so, that is what Ms Lockhat also indicated that when the applications are received they do receive stamps like that.  Mr Chairman if I may, also on page 8 in the second application which was submitted by the applicant, also dated the 12th, or first if I might on page 20, it is on page 20, this particular application is dated the 26th of eleven 1996, so it appears to be made two months after the initial application.  However, on the date, once against on page 8, it appears to have also been received by the Amnesty Committee on the same date as the previous application.  Mr Chairman the Committee ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think also it needs to be noted as well, that each of the applications was assigned a different amnesty number, registration number.  The first one, that is the one dated September, is 4175/96 and the next one is 4348/96.

MR CLAASSEN: That is indeed correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And it would also seem, Mr Claasen, from looking at the first page of each of the applications, that the information given by the applicant is exactly the same.  His ID number, his date of birth, that sort of thing.  Except there's only one slight difference.  The one he says his name is Mandlake Norman and the other one he says he's Norman Mandlake.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my exact submission Mr Chair.  It appears that there is this slight discrepancy, just the few names that have been swopped around on the two different applications.  Mr Chair just getting back to the, if I may, then just after it appears that this, both of these applications were received on the 20th of December 1996, and on the 19th of March, I think the last document was dated the 20th of March, the 19th of March, the Amnesty application brought out a decision based apparently on these applications, which states that amnesty is denied the applicant on the basis of the fact that the act does not relate to a political objective, and further that guilt is denied.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem fro mthat page 16, Mr Claasen, that that decision was based on the application with reference number 4175.  The September one.

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I have, I have had an opportunity to speak to my client about this.  Maybe just starting at exactly the point I think Ms Lockhat would be gettinh at, is the fact that the Amnesty Committee as such has already made a decision based on two applications that have been submitted.  Mr Chair, if I may offer an explanation for this.  It is my instructions from my client, I asked him what occurred here, the Committee might, will also notice that the second application 4348/96 is written in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.