Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MR WILLS: Sorry, you obviously misunderstood my question.
What was the latest arrest that occurred on that day, to your knowledge?

H J P BOTHA: I said I don't know, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You wouldn't be able to dispute the facts of my instructions that some of these arrests continued until right up until 21h00 on the night of the 12th?

H J P BOTHA: That could be right Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And obviously you didn't put a stop to this at 12 o'clock?

H J P BOTHA: Not at all.

MR WILLS: Despite the fact that you had this order to delay the arrests?

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Chairperson.  Now, these arrests created a bit of a problem for you, not so?

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well you had to go and explain yourself.  I understood that that is why you went to explain yourself to, with General Steyn and you returned to Pretoria on the 13th.

H J P BOTHA: It is not that it was a problem for us Chairperson, it was a new development which had to be reported.  When Nyanda was arrested and the following people were arrested, it was then not only names that had hung in the air, these were real facts.

MR WILLS: And what happened at that meeting?  Tell me, who did you meet with?  Your affidavit isn't clear to me.  Sorry, and I'm referring mainly to your English affidavit, your first version.  What happened at that meeting?  Who did you meet?  What time on the 13th and what transpired as a result of the meeting on the 13th?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I would like to put something clear.  I never made an English affidavit.  If he refers to an English affidavit, it is definitely not mine.

MR WILLS: It is clear that I'm referring to my translation of your first affidavit, your affidavit that was dated in December 1996 and commissioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Just refer to that.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  It is the affidavit that is part of the papers,

CHAIRPERSON: The bundle.

MR WILLS: In the bundle and it is from page 1 to 25 and I specifically ...

MR LAX: Mr Wills, just, sorry, just for the record, that's not an affidavit.  That is his application.

MR WILLS: As you please.  I'm referring to the affidavit attached.  It is sworn to.  The affidavit attached to your application form.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at page 25.  It is sworn.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway.

MR WILLS: Yes as I say from this statement, there is no indication from whom you met in Pretoria, according to my translation on that day, but please tell me who you met with.  You see I'm referring to page 16, the middle paragraph, where it says
"From these arrests a chain reaction of arrests resulted.  As a result of the incidents which happened prematurely, I accompanied Gen Steyn to Pretoria for appraisal and instruction.  It was decided to form a National Investigation team."
Now what I'm referring to is who did you meet with in Pretoria at this stage?  As far as I recall, there were several people Chairperson.  It was Gen Beukes, Brig Abrie, he was attached to the ANC research desk, members of the Intelligence Unit, Col Jimmy Taylor and Albert Oosthuizen and there could have been other people involved whom I cannot recall right now.

MR WILLS: What was the highest rank, or the most senior person who attended that meeting, to your recollection?

H J P BOTHA: If I recall correctly, it was Gen Beukes.

MR WILLS: And what was his position at that stage?

H J P BOTHA: He was number 2 or number 3 in the Security Branch.

MR WILLS: Now, you went there for appraisal and instructions, what do you mean by that?

H J P BOTHA: We gave feedback of the arrests of Siphiwe Nyanda and the other people which had taken place on the 12th which had already been received back in terms of arms, documentation and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I didn't hear that, just the last part.  What were you saying about the arms and the documents?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, we had already found arms and documents when we searched the places where Nyanda and the other people had been arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now at this stage, did you tell the senior personnel of the earlier arrests of Shabalala and Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson, at no stage was anybody informed about the fact that Ndaba was an informer and was in detention with me and that Shabalala was in unlawful detention.

MR WILLS: Surely you would have considered it important for the purposes of an appraisal of the situation that this issue be raised.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he didn't do it, isn't it?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Possibly I can ask a direct question, I'll rephrase, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: I must assume that the reasons for not informing these people, were similar to the reasons you gave earlier i.e. partly because you didn't want to inform these people of the fact that you'd acted illegally in respect of the two that you'd arrested?

H J P BOTHA: The fact that Shabalala was taken unlawfully, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Yes,  Now, there was - you received certain instructions according to your, the implication of your evidence.  You say you went - the purpose of the meeting was for appraisals and instructions and it appears from the same paragraph that one of the instructions was given that Col Zen de Beer of Durban would head a National Investigation team to, obviously in relation to this whole investigation, not so?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MR WILLS: And both you and Mr Steyn were obviously made aware of that in no uncertain terms?

H J P BOTHA: He was a colleague of ours in Durban.  We knew de Beer was under the command of Gen Steyn.

MR WILLS: Now was there anything else that was important that was discussed at that meeting?  What else, or rather let me say what else was discussed at that meeting?

H J P BOTHA: The investigation team, from where all these people would come from, which people would be used in the investigative team, information which had been obtained from the computers had to be analysed, the use of other Intelligence Services to be of assistance.  The briefing of other services which still had to take place and that was scheduled for a Sunday.

MR WILLS: Now you see, because you also indicate in your affidavit that on the 13th the decision was also communicated to at least Gen Steyn that the persons who were arrested would not be prosecuted.

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MR WILLS: Tell me, how was that decision communicated to you?

H J P BOTHA: Gen Steyn informed me.

MR WILLS: And when was that?

H J P BOTHA: While we were on our way back from Pretoria to Durban.

MR WILLS: How did you travel?

H J P BOTHA: If I recall correctly, we flew.

MR WILLS: So obviously Gen Steyn must have had other communications with other persons without you being in his company that day because that wasn't communicated directly to you?

H J P BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: What time did you return on the 13th?

H J P BOTHA: It was during the afternoon.

MR WILLS: Do you recall, was it early or late afternoon?

H J P BOTHA: I think it was on the 3 o'clock flight.

MR WILLS: Now an interesting aspect of your affidavit in this regard is that you mentioned that you were disappointed by this decision.  What do you mean by that?

H J P BOTHA: All the work that had been put it for nothing.  A decision is taken, there would be no prosecutions, there would be arrests but no prosecutions and that is disappointing.

MR WILLS: Did it not go further than that?  Did you not personally want to see these so-called terrorists and communists behind bars and put away for ever?

H J P BOTHA: Given during that time, yes.