Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR BERGER: You also know that on the basis of certain evidence from State witnesses, this is Mr Moloi, in fact there were three witnesses, Mr Bojozi, Moloi, Mciti, all of them said that you were in possession of an AK47 in Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what they said, but it was not true, because I never went there.

MR BERGER: And that you were identified in Boipatong, in Bafokeng Street, do you remember that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I remember such evidence and that is why I refer to it as false because I never went to that place.

MR BERGER: But then as your Counsel pointed out, Mr Victor Mthembu, your deputy, gave evidence to this Committee, at page 59 of the record, he was asked by me, Mr Mthembu, can you name anybody in your group who was there that night, but you did not actually see carrying out an attack, answer, I can say that people like Buthelezi and somebody like Khanyile and Umsani were present when we went to attack.
	Question, the third name that you mentioned was who?  Answer, Umsani.  Question, the Buthelezi that you are talking about, is that Mqambeleni Buthelezi, Mr Mthembu, yes, that is so.
	Your deputy who knows you very well, says that you were present when you went to attack Boipatong, three State witnesses put you in possession of an AK47, another State witness placed you in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: That is not so according to my recollection and according to the judgment.  The State witness who placed him in Boipatong, was Moloi, one of the State witnesses earlier mentioned.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am not suggesting a fourth State witness, I am sorry.  Another meaning one of the three, not all three, not all three placed you in Bafokeng Street.  Three placed you in possession of an AK47, one placed you in Bafokeng Street, your deputy says you were present when you went to carry out the attack.  Are all of these people mistaken and telling lies, Mr Buthelezi?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, Mr Berger, they made a mistake.  I did not go to Tserela.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu was a co-accused with you in the criminal trial, correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu was with you as one of your co-accused in the criminal trial?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He heard you tell the Judge that you were sick, that you were not present in the attack on Boipatong, correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And yet he came to this Committee and said that you were present.  That can't be a mistake, can it Mr Buthelezi?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I am explaining Mr Berger, Victor made a mistake.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, do you have any questions?

MR MALINDI: Just a few questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't cover matter that have already been canvassed.

MR MALINDI: Sure, I won't do Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, the problem that you had with the residents of Boipatong, was that an issue effecting the IFP or the Zulu speaking people at kwaMadala only?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.  Will you please repeat the question.

MR LAX: He is asking you to repeat the question Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: My question is, the problem that you as residents of kwaMadala had, with the residents of Boipatong, was that an issue for the IFP or was it an issue for the Zulu speaking residents of kwaMadala?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was a problem for the IFP as well as for the residents of the hostel, because they were no longer free to walk in the streets, they would be attacked.

MR MALINDI: If Mtwana Vanana Zulu, if it had come to your knowledge that Mtwana Vanana Zulu had suggested that the attack should not be launched, whilst he tries to speak to the leaders of Boipatong, would you have followed his request or instructions?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would have followed that instruction because I myself, desired negotiations between us and the ANC.

MR MALINDI: You yourself, as a leader at kwaMadala were aware that there was an alternative way to resolve this problem other than attacking the residents of Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As a leader, I was aware that there were alternative means to resolve the problem, but the problem we had was contacting ANC leaders, because they were intimidated themselves, they lived under the fear that if they talked to IFP leaders, they could be attacked by their own members.

MR MALINDI: You yourself regarded Mtwana Zulu as the overall leader of kwaMadala, isn't that so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did explain the position of Mtwana Zulu at the hostel.

MR MALINDI: Going back to the judgement during your trial, you say when you told the Judge that you were not part of the attacking group in Boipatong, you were telling the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did tell the truth, I did not go to Boipatong.

MR MALINDI: And when you told the Judge that you did not hear the siren or the alarm being sounded, you were not telling the truth?  Is that not so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was telling lies.

MR MALINDI: When you were telling the Judge that you were not aware of a meeting prior to the attack, was that the truth or were you telling a lie?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was a lie.  I was just denying the charges.

MR MALINDI: And when you told the Court that the attackers did not come out of kwaMadala, you were not telling the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was telling lies.

MR MALINDI: So all the lies that you told in that court, it was because you wanted to protect residents of kwaMadala and leaders of kwaMadala, isn't it so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was trying to save myself.

MR MALINDI: No, you told the Judge that you were not there, that was saving yourself, but when you told the Judge that none of the residents of kwaMadala left the hostel to attack in Boipatong, you were protecting the residents of kwaMadala, isn't that so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was just trying to escape and save myself.

MR MALINDI: And at the same time, by denying that the residents attacked and denying that meetings took place prior to the attack, you were also protecting the leaders of kwaMadala hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was just trying to protect myself against the crime, against the charge, the entire charge.

MR MALINDI: Including protecting the leaders of kwaMadala?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was also a leader at that time.  I was arrested because I was a leader.

MR MALINDI: Mr Buthelezi, you are evading my question and I will leave it at that.
	When you filled in your amnesty applications, you have conceded to the Court, to this Committee, that you did not tell the whole truth because you were not sure of the stratus of this Amnesty Committee, is that not so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: What I want to put to you is that your denial that people like Mr Zulu, Vanana Zulu and Mr Themba Khoza knew about the pending attack and the attack itself, is another way of protecting the kwaMadala leaders and other residents.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is not true.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Mkhize play any leadership role in the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What was his role?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He would be the leader, he will be in front when we went out to rallies or to traditional ceremonies.  That was his role.