Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: If you are in the passage, there are walls then they will make it impossible for you to hear what was happening or what is happening on the other side, so if you are in the room, you would hear what is happening.

ADV DE JAGER: What is between the rooms, isn't there a wall too?  You say you would hear if you are in the one room and somebody is assaulted in another room.  Would that be, could I only hear if he is assaulted in the next door room or would I be able to hear if he is assaulted four rooms away from me?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, does it mean here you are referring to the rooms on the fifth floor?  If you are on the fifth floor and somebody is being assaulted, you would hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't the rooms open onto the passage?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't understand, what do you mean when you say they don't open, in what way?

CHAIRPERSON: Are there not doors in the passage which led you into the rooms?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Along the passage there are doors leading to the rooms.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are you saying that for you to can hear somebody on a different floor being assaulted, say if somebody is being assaulted on the fourth floor and you are on the fifth floor, if you are in the passage on the fifth floor, you are less likely to hear, but if you instead of standing in the passage on the fifth floor, you get into one of the offices on the fifth floor, you are likely to hear the noise from the fourth floor because then you would be in an office on the fifth floor, where there would obviously be a window to the outside?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know where that is taking us Mr Visser, beyond wasting a little more time.  Perhaps you better continue.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, perhaps we are on the subject of buildings, Mr Motsamai, let me tell you how I understand the position.  You can dispute it if you disagree.
	This is a five storey building on the corner of Fountain Street and Aliwal Street?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR VISSER: So first of all, there is no sixth floor?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  On the ground floor, the following people or Units or departments occupied the ground floor, the District Surgeon was there and recruiting office, that is the ground floor, would that be correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The first and the second floors were occupied by the District Commandant and his staff.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The third floor was occupied by the Divisional Commissioner and his staff?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, that is before we took that fifth floor.

MR VISSER: That is quite correct, later it changed and instead of just the fourth and the fifth floor, the Security Branch also occupied the third floor.  I can't remember exactly when it was, I haven't got my notes in front of me, but I believe it was in 1989, if I am not mistaken.  Yes, my Attorney also think so.
	So you are quite correct, you are quite correct.  So to complete the story on the fourth and the fifth floor before 1989, those two floors were occupied by the Security Branch, the fourth floor mainly Officers and administration, would that be correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was administration yes, in the other side.  There were Officers who were occupying them, that section.  Even that Unit which I mentioned, meaning the MK's and the ANC, occupied that section of the fourth floor.

MR VISSER: I was just going to add that in fairness to you, the Special Investigating Unit was also accommodated on the fourth floor, and you did already refer to that in your evidence.  And the fifth floor were the field workers, isn't that so?  That is where you chaps sat?  The field workers?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is workers, you leave another fact about files, they were stored on the fourth floor.  There was a big office or a big room where they called the administration office, there are tables.  Then there would be a big space where files were stored.
	There would be a space for the indexes where we looked the names of people.

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed, the files were kept on the fourth floor, there is no argument about that Mr Motsamai, but incidentally now that you mention that, would you have had access to that filing room?  If you wanted to draw a file, could you walk in there as a Security Branch member and draw a file?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  You don't take it and leave, you take it and look it from that room and you would read and see what is happening about ANC or SATU or SACP.  If you want to make use of that file, you must get instruction from the Officer, before you take it out.

MR VISSER: The point is, you could also read if you wished to do so, files that you carried on Winnie Mandela and as you've said President Nelson Mandela or anybody else that were in that room, isn't that so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  You referred to two further petrol bombing of houses, the one is Kuze and the other is that of Sehope.  Is it a coincidence or is it an omission on your part that you only referred to Shaw as giving the instructions and said nothing about Coetzee for a change?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is Shaw who gave instructions.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I misunderstood the conversation between yourself and Mr Visser at an earlier stage when he said that he did not intend putting what his clients are going to say.  I thought he had come to the end of the cross-examination and I was going to say that if he doesn't put what they are going to say, my understanding is that we will be facing a bad denial type of situation and that he is not going to call them to testify, we will go by what is on record thus far.

MR VISSER: I have no idea what my learned friend is talking about.  I never said that I am not going to put what the evidence was going to be, I never suggested in the least little bit that they were not going to come and give evidence.

ADV MEMANI: But did I misunderstand you when you spoke to the Chairman and they conferred, I thought you were saying that you were not, you do not intend putting things to Motsamai because it is not necessary not going to put their denials in each case and I thought what was meant was that he was not going to put what they were going to say, we will have to do with the general denial and I am saying that is fine, if he doesn't put what they are going to say, then we are happy, then we would go by what Mr Motsamai has said.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not the position.  What he said is he is not going to waste time by going through each one and say Coetzee will say he didn't give you instructions.  He is putting a general denial.  Coetzee will say that he did not give you instructions for any one of these instances.  And he has not said as I understood it, the intention is that he will call his witnesses and say do you confirm your affidavits and that is it?
	Perhaps in certain instances he might want to put more, but he has certainly not suggested that he is going to call anybody, because if he doesn't call anybody, there evidence will be of little value.  So what is the point you wish to make?  By him suggesting that he was laboriously go through each instance and each case, say he will deny he gave you these instructions?
	Mamome will deny that he went with you and did these things?

ADV MEMANI: What I am saying is that in the case of a witness who is going to say more than denying being involved, we are, I would expect him to tell us what that witness is going to say and if he doesn't do that, I don't think they will be entitled to come and testify about those things.