Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

MR MAPOMA: Was the deceased married?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, he was.

MR MAPOMA: What is the name of the widow?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS KHUNGWANE: Beauty Thembi Ngubane, that is the surname of the maiden.

MR MAPOMA: Did he have any child?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, he did.

MR MAPOMA: What's the name of the child?

MS KHUNGWANE: Sipho.

MR MAPOMA: You have listened to the applicants applying for amnesty for the murder of the late Simon.  What is your attitude of that application?

MS KHUNGWANE: Well, what I would say is that, what I heard them saying I don't agree with them because within our family we have lost a breadwinner.  I think you did saw my father, he was here yesterday.  Since the death of my brother my father was struck by the stroke and then he was paralysed, because my brother, he was a person who did help him with everything.
	Whenever he was sick he did take him to the doctors and then at this juncture my mother is sick too.  And then when we tried to comfort her because of the death of our brother, those people who have killed my brother on behalf of the family, we do not accept the application for amnesty.  They were hurt by the death of my brother.  
	Even when I told them that those people have asked for amnesty they were shocked, because that act was not politically motivated and because my brother was not a politician.  He was interested with his children.  When he was shot he was busy helping small kids to cross a road.  So I don't know why did they do such a terrible thing.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Yes, Miss Khangwane, we understand that the death of your brother caused a terrible harm to the members of your family and for that we sympathise fully.  But now let us go to the amnesty application which is being made by these two gentlemen.  I just want to briefly explain to you that for this honourable Committee to grant them amnesty, they must show this Committee that their act was an act associated with a political objective, and number two, they must make full disclosure to this Committee.  Do you understand that?

MS KHUNGWANE: Yes, I understand.

MR MAPOMA: Now, what I want you to tell the Committee regarding those grounds for which amnesty is sought, I want you to tell the Committee what is your view as the family.

MS KHUNGWANE: Because they say they were members of APLA, what I want to know from APLA what is their motto?  Is their motto that they should recruit and kill at the same time?  That's what I want to know from APLA members.  If you are a soldier you must go for training.  Thereafter you must be taught.  Even members of the South African Defence Force members would, before he become a soldier, you must be taught how to handle a gun and the ammunitions and the mines and the grenades.  	They did this thing and they're hiding themselves behind APLA.  They should not tell us that they would succeed because they're hiding behind APLA.  What I want to know from APLA members is that what is their motto, what is the motto of APLA, because you cannot recruit at the same time and the same time you send people to kill.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now, is it your evidence that you do not accept that the applicants were trained cadres of APLA?

MS KHUNGWANE: I don't believe that they were trained APLA members.  I don't even believe that they were APLA members.  They were criminals, because they have bad criminal records, especially Mvijane.  Before he went to gaol, before he shot my brother, he was on trial to point an old man and old woman with a screwdriver.  I read his evidence in court.  What happened even before he was given a judgment, I read all those things.  Even the standard which he said he has passed is a low standard.  Even a standard two child, he wouldn't do what he did.  What I read from his records and the judgment, he's hiding behind APLA.  He must not come and say APLA has recruited him.
	When I look carefully, my brother was working for the Traffic Department.  Even members of APLA wanted to jump the border.  Before he jumped he would meet a traffic cop then he would ask him for help to cross the road.  Then that traffic cop would help him to cross the road, unlike for a person to come and shoot at traffic officers, because he is looking after the safety of people to cross the road.  Traffic officers don't participate in politics.  He didn't associate himself with politics.  At the time he was shot, at that time there was PAC and ANC and they were busy negotiating in CODESA.  They did not say they were sent by Moss.  They invented that version by themselves.  I don't blame PAC, what I blame is Mvijane and Lulamile.  
	I don't know as to whether Lulamile was there or not, because he doesn't come up straight to explain his position, instead to give us a straightforward position, maybe he's afraid of Mvijane.  My elder brother used to communicate with Mvijane's place where they meet.  Mvijane was not able to communicate well with Mvijane.  They fought.  He sought people to come and kill Mvijane in prison.  Then they requested that Lulamile must go to Bloemfontein.  I don't know how to classify Mvijane, under which group of people.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  When I had a consultation with you, this is exactly what you expressed that you want to address to the applicants.

MS KHUNGWANE: What I wanted to know is that what is the motto of APLA?  If they can tell me what is the APLA's motto that when they recruit a person they cannot send him to do an operation or to shoot a person.  That person must undergo military training.  He must know his commander, his identify and then he must know the leadership structures of that particular organisation.  That's what I want to know from APLA, as to whether is it a practice that they would recruit the person now and send him to do some operations?

MR MAPOMA: Thanks a lot.  Thanks a lot, Miss Johanna Khungwane.

MS KHUNGWANE: Thank you very much.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Khungwane.  Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I have no questions except that I want to say to Miss Khungwane that they must accept my condolences for the death of their brother and the pain which they went through for the whole process.  Also that I understand the anger of the family.  We understand that you are angry for the death of your brother and everybody, also myself, it's not easy to lose a loved one, especially somebody who's a breadwinner.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.  Miss Khungwane, it may help you just to understand, I sat through the submission that APLA made to the Truth Commission, and I heard it, and in that submission APLA did concede that in some cases some of their recruits were not as well trained or as well disciplined as they may have been, and they acknowledged that.  And they indicated that some things happened that they may not have wished to happen, but that's what happens when people are engaged in an armed struggle.  So just to let you know that APLA did make that statement before the Commission.  So that you can understand, they did admit that there were some mistakes that they made as well.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any further questions?

MR MAPOMA: No, no further questions, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA