Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

ADV PRIOR: That's precisely an issue which may be raised, and Mr Mbandazayo is available to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well let us hear it.

ADV PRIOR: Well, should we hear that before we hear the evidence of Mr Jones?

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Jones can explain why he told his lawyers to act in this way, can't he?

ADV PRIOR: Yes, well I - Mr Ntonga is here on his behalf and he's going to present the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any point in not hearing this, adjourning the matter once again to hear Mpahlele, then calling Mr Jones?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, my attitude, on behalf of the, as Evidence Leader, is to press ahead and obviously to hear the evidence that is available.  At the end of that we may come to a different conclusion regarding whether Mpahlele is necessary or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I am told that Mr Mbandazayo wants to say something now.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  I want to say something with respect to the question of Letklapa Mpahlele, about him coming to testify.
	Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I have spoken to him.  He just phoned my just now, now, now, when I was coming in here.  I left a message for him.  And he reiterated his position, that he will not appear before the Committee, irrespective of what.  He is prepared to go to jail.  So if one wants his evidence it's as good as if it's not there because he says he is prepared to go to jail because he cannot testify before the this Committee.  
	Chairperson knows we had the meeting in Pinetown.  He had his reason for not coming before the Amnesty Committee, and as such he still stands by that  position.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he has made a general stand and says in no cases will he appear, whether they have any relationship to this list of names or not.  And in that case, if he is a necessary witness and if it is in the interests of justice that he be heard, he will be subpoenaed and he will go to jail.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  That is the position he still maintains, Chairperson.  He just phoned my about this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, one wonders, when he is actually facing the prospect of going to jail he would want to retain his silence.  Surely it depends on the questions that he is asked.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, also then going to the question of Jimmy Jones in Court.  Chairperson, I wouldn't like this time, because the reason for him not testifying was in a way not necessary that he did not, he himself did not want to testify, but for ... I consulted with him and I consulted with the members of the High Command.  Then for technical reasons then that's the reason that the letter was, I wrote the letter.  I went to High Court and put that position that he will not be in a position to testify.  In a way we were avoiding the State calling him as a witness in the case at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you told the Court, is that not correct?  That the judgment says he said that if he testified before this Court his application would be prejudiced.  He said that in any event his evidence would not favour the State.  As I read it that is what you as his legal advisor told the Court because they say
"this was through his lawyers"

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I want to say that in Court, I still maintain it, that the reason for him not testifying, he was already in Court when I was called to come and he said he wanted to see his lawyer.  He was already subpoenaed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And we consulted, I consulted with him and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell the Court that in any event his evidence would not favour the State?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of your consultation with him?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we can then hear his evidence and hear his explanation for that.   You know that a notice was served on Mr Mpahlele on the 30th of March 1998, you would have seen that document?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And his reaction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't about; he wouldn't testify unless he got a list, he walked away remarking that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is a circus.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.  Chairperson, also that the reason why I, this matter, this one of not testifying in Court, I think the problem why I'm uneasy to talk here is that also I think he has knowledge of this, the counsel for the applicants knows the reason why the letter was written in the High Court and to ...(indistinct) as both parties were involved in that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: You will come and tell me these things, but we are here to hear evidence.  We have been asked to hear the evidence of Mr Jimmy Jones, we've been shown the statement which is a summary of his evidence, which is relevant to the inquiry before us.  There is evidence given by Mr Mpahlele at the trial of Ncamazana, which would appear to conflict directly with Mr Jimmy Jones' evidence.  It is important for us if we are to hear the truth, to hear this evidence and to decide on it, not to avoid the issue completely to the prejudice of the applicants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I have no problem with that.  Even Letklapa Mpahlele, I am the person who called him to go and testify in Court.  I brought him to Bisho and also I took him back to Bloemfontein after testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: And he testified there ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Unfortunately Chairperson, I was not present when he testified, I was busy.  I just dropped him in Bisho and then I went back.  I came at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: No, ...(indistinct) the date.  It was August/September 1997.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I came when he was finishing testifying.  I don't know the gist of the whole of his testimony.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Do you wish to say anything further?

MS COLLETT: No, Mr Chairman, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us proceed, nobody wishes to address further.

MR LAX: Just for the benefit of people in the house, Xhosa is on 3, English is on channel 2.
	Would you state your full names for the record please.

XHOLILE TJABANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NTONGA: Mr Tjabane, where do you reside?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I reside at Butterworth, 37 Ninsa Street.

MR NTONGA: Where are you employed?

XHOLILE TJABANE: At Municipality City Police.

MR NTONGA: What is your position?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I am a Lieutenant at City Police.

MR NTONGA: Can you tell the Committee whether you were at one stage a commander in the APLA structure of the PAC, and if so when was that.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I was in Eastern Cape Command many years ago.

MR NTONGA: And when did you cease to hold this position?

XHOLILE TJABANE: In January 1994, after APLA was disbanded.

MR NTONGA: Is that the time APLA ceased the armed struggle or upheld the armed struggle?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.  At that time the President told us to cease the armed struggle because it was the process of the negotiations.

MR NTONGA: And as a commander what steps did you take to see to it that that order is being carried out by your soldiers and other structures of APLA?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I called all the structures at the time.  I instructed the structures to further instruct the ground forces to cease the armed struggle because we were preparing ourselves towards the negotiation process.

MR NTONGA: Can you tell the Committee about how the command structure in APLA, from you down to the foot-soldier, how did you go about?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I was working from the regional commanders.  I had nothing to do with the foot-soldiers, I was working with regional commanders, camp commanders.  Those were the people that I used to communicate with whenever we were discussing anything.  I had nothing to do with the foot-soldiers.  That was the procedure at the time.