Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And had that stopped the preparation of the elections in any way Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: The bombs we planted I saw as much bigger than that, and Cliffie Barnard also conveyed it to me in this fashion.  This was now that we would get the attention of the whole world. It was right before the election and the world's attention would be focused on this.  That is how he conveyed it to me and that is how I also believed it.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you haven't answered the question.  Is it correct that none of the bombings before the 24th of April did anything to stop preparations for the election which was to take place a few days later?

MR LE ROUX: No, you're right, they didn't.

MR LANDMAN: But you say these bombings were going to be much bigger in order to attract the attention of the world, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: It would have been part of the greater plan.  As I've said, the Defence Force was also in the balance and they might have joined the right-wing battle.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for the world to know about the AWB policy?

MR LE ROUX: You know that if you want a state the world has to admit the existence of that state and that is what it was about.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you think that the world would help?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the United Nations' whole principle is based thereon.  For example I know that two of their principles are, you cannot discriminate and the other one is that every nation has the right to self-determination and that's what we believed in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Just a follow-up on that.  This is what really puzzles me, you did not want foreigners to be hurt again because you wanted the world to accept what you were doing but you don't explain to the world why, who you are and why you are doing these particular things at this particular time.  How does the world then assist you in any way?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the last question I will answer first.  It is correct, I also questioned the fact that they did not take responsibility for the bombs and I also put it to them.  The next thing is that you do not just shoot an American, it maybe could but I don't know.  It was an order which came from Barnard in any case, the airport bomb but I mean, my logic says you don't shoot an American or so because they will make much noise about it.  ...[transcriber's own translation]

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but I still don't see a separation between your objective which is the attainment of a Volkstaat and the actions that you were involved in here.  I can't see a correlation between the two.  Just to explain a little more possibly.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the ANC took over the country, he planted a few bombs, he committed acts of terror and some of them they did not even admit themselves.  In that same regard we were also a paramilitary organisation and had the same objectives as the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, really just for clarity.  You see, the people whom I presume you expected to stop these elections were the NP Government, that's right?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.  That is part of the that.

ADV GCABASHE: But if anything was going to happen before the 27th or on the 27th, it's only the government in power that would have done something about it, yes?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, this thing was aimed or I saw it as something which stretched beyond the election, it wouldn't have ended with the election.  It would have been bigger than the bombs we planted.  There would have been other units involved.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you also knew that the world generally was against what the NP Government had sustained for so long, so as far as the NP Government was concerned the world was on your side, they wanted a democratic election in the country, right?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But your target doesn't become an NP Government target at the end of the day, how do you then relate this?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, it's difficult to explain but I think if you are part of a resistance movement and you look at the ANC who was in a similar situation as we were, how would you explain a Wimpy bomb or a Church Street bomb?  You cannot see what the target was.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I'm still confused, were you aiming to influence the NP Government or were you aiming to influence the international community?

MR LE ROUX: We saw the NP in alliance with the ANC at that stage.  I mean at that stage the writing was already on the wall, that the ANC would take over the government and that's what we wanted to focus our pressure on and for the world to see what was going on.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, but just answer my question.  Were you attempting to influence the international community by placing these bombs?

MR LE ROUX: I think the thing was that they also see it Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you want the international community to stop the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot answer that, but the purpose of it was to, in a bigger context, stop the election.  That was only our part in the whole process.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, but we're here trying to understand inter alia your motive.  Was your motive to convince the international community to apply pressure on the National Party not to continue with the elections?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So your activities were not aimed directly at the National Party, but you were actually trying to make a point to the international community?

MR LE ROUX: It's difficult for me to talk about it because I was not the planner, I was only part of a team which took part in the Bree Street bombing.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you see it?

MR LE ROUX: I saw in that light, that the world must know about it.  It was also one of the thing which Barnard distinctly said: "We are going to show the world there".

MR LANDMAN: So Mr le Roux, isn't it correct then to say that at the end of the day you actually can't say yourself what the real motive and purpose was behind the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: No, I can say Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you say: "Ek kan dit nie se nie"?

MR LE ROUX: I can say it.

MR LANDMAN: You can say it.  Now Mr le Roux, you also, if I understand it correctly, conceded that the writing was on the wall, there was going to be a change in government after the 27th of April.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it correct Mr le Roux, that by the 24th of April you knew that you will never stop the election?

MR LE ROUX: The day of the election I only realised it and I then decided by myself or realised myself that it is the case.

MR LANDMAN: So despite the fact that you had planted the most powerful bomb on the Sunday and it had no effect on the elections, the election was still going to go ahead, did you not then realise that this is not going to work?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, at that stage I didn't have a lot of contact with the outside world.  I was on a farm, I drove into Johannesburg, I drove back and I did not really know what was going on.  I saw it as a range of things that's happening.

MR LANDMAN: Well did you hear or see anything, hear anything on the radio or see anything on television which gave you the impression that your bomb on Sunday had any effect whatsoever on the course of the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I heard over the radio, we heard that the Johannesburg bomb had a terrible effect.

MR LANDMAN: Did you hear anything to the effect that that bomb had any effect upon the elections which would take place on the 27th of April?

MR LE ROUX: I do not believe that one would hear of anything like that.  I mean, how would you hear about it?

MR LANDMAN: There wasn't a spokesman from government saying: "Well, we now doubt as to whether we are going to continue with the election"?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not hear anything like that Chairperson.