Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, let me put it to you;  that you produced
affidavits and you said these are the very affidavits that I put before Biko and he got such a shock and that he went ashen grey and he knew that that it was over for him, because we had obtained affidavits and that he knew that his political life was at an end and that these affidavits would prove that the world was being misled when it suggested that he was a peace-loving man, you had hard evidence that he had taken part in acts of terror. Do you recall that?

MR SNYMAN: That is false, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I know that it was false.  Don't you remember, Mr Kenridge assured - accusing you of trying to try, to try Mr Biko after his death when you couldn't try him during his life time?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Don't you recall that?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: You couldn't have forgotten that, Mr Snyman?  Could you?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, it is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, for a person that showed such inventiveness as to produce false affidavits, could you please explain to us what methods you used in order to obtain false affidavits from would-be witnesses in Mr Biko's trial after his death?
How did you manage to get those affidavits which you produced?

MR SNYMAN: It was from documents that were available.

GEORGE BIZOS: How were documents signed about what Mr Biko had done, which could be produced on the 6th when they had been signed on the 14th?
	Please tell me how you managed to get false affidavits about Mr Biko's activities after his death and foolishly pretended that they were taken before his death?	How did you manage that?

MR SNYMAN: This was a story that was fabricated, because of the meeting on Saturday morning.

GEORGE BIZOS: I can understand you making up lies.  I want to know how you managed to get existing persons to sign affidavits about Mr Biko's activities, after his death?

MR SNYMAN: We were in the possession of certain statements, but I can no longer recall which ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: The affidavits which were signed after his death?  And you wrongly believed when you produced them that they were taken before his death.  I want to know how you managed to get false affidavits from people?

MR SNYMAN: It must have been false, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, Mr Jones gives an answer as to how you managed to get false statements from people.  You smash them up, like you did Mr Biko.  You torture them like you did Mr Jones, so that they will sign anything that you put in front of them.  Do you consider that as part of your duty as a policeman?

MR SNYMAN: I deny that.

GEORGE BIZOS: What are you denying?

MR SNYMAN: I did not beat Jones up.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did you take the trouble to read Prof Loubser's report?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you never interested to count the number of abrasions that there were on Mr Biko's body?

MR SNYMAN: I never saw it, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  I don't know whether a copy of the post-mortem report, a very full document by Prof Loubser, also signed by Prof Simpson and also signed by Prof - by Dr Gluckman, is available to the Committee, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: It is.  It's in my bag with one of his files.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I must apologise for the, for the poor paper.  I copied from a copy that was copied from another copy.  My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you handing this in, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: If it pleases you, Mr Chairman, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  EXHIBIT E

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It will be D, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT D?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Exhibit D.
 
EXHIBIT D HANDED IN

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, I don't want to go through these technical terms with you, because our time is limited, but please accept from me that these - the two prominent professors and a pathologist of international repute all agreed on the condition of Mr Biko's body.  There were numerous abrasions which were noted, photographed, described and aged.  Do you know anything about that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the conclusion is that there were numerous abrasions of different ages which could be determined by these experienced doctors that they were of various ages, varying from 48 hours before his - I beg your pardon - varying from four to 12 days, if I remember correctly on the - in the report.  Four to eight days was it?  Yes, four to eight days, but I think that in the record there was some difference of opinion in relation to the precise number of dates. But let's take four to eight days before his death.  Now, we know that he died during the night of the 11th to 12th.  Can you please tell us, going back four days, will give us the 7th or 8th, but at any rate, during the period from the 6th to the 8th is within that period, four to eight days? Can you explain to us how the abrasions that were described in this report, occurred?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I didn't have the benefit of my learned of appearing at the Biko inquest.  I did, however,
have the benefit of reading Prof Loubser's evidence and the report and I think in all fairness to the witness, the - my learned friend should also make it clear that those abrasions with the exception of one against the temple and one on the mouth and some marks on the wrists and the ankles;  those injuries were indeed described as minor injuries and superficial injuries by Prof Loubser.  
	With the exception of the ones that I mentioned.  It is not a suggestion - they were certainly not suggestive the other injuries of anybody being, to use my learned friend's words, being bashed up.

GEORGE BIZOS: Smashed-up.

MR BOOYENS: Smashed-up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you accept that?

GEORGE BIZOS: I accept that they were described as minor injuries, Mr Chairman, in relation to the cause of death.  What I am asking about is how did those numerous injuries come about?  What caused them?
	The issue we are not dealing with, is whether they could have caused death, which was the primary concern of Prof Loubser.  We are concerned with how a person who is entitled to have his person not violated;  how so many minor injuries were suffered by Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, this could have occurred during the fight or the scuffle during which we attempted to restrain him.  Alternatively, it could have been brought about by the handcuffs
during the time when he was chained against the steel door.

GEORGE BIZOS: That was after he had been seriously injured?  If any of these injuries can be explained on the basis that they were caused by the handcuffs;  that must have been after he had been injured and was either unconscious as the doctor say or he had been unconscious as the doctor say or he was confused as you say?
	Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now if you would bear with me?

CHAIRPERSON: It has been described in simple terms as a scuffle.

GEORGE BIZOS: A scuffle, yes, a scuffle.

CHAIRPERSON: Described as a scuffle.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It may very well have been an event in which the man was pushed around, beaten, bumped against and so on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But if there were minor injuries;  those could be as a result of falling and whatever.
	What I would like to know from you, is what is the purpose, obviously medical, legal questions put to this witness are not going to elicit any sensible reply?

GEORGE BIZOS: No.  I'm happy with his answer, Mr Chairman, that he does not know how any of the injuries which were recorded were
inflicted and we will argue the ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, unless you are drawing a distinction between the injuries that were sustained before he became unconscious and those that must have been incurred by him after he was unconscious.  If you're seeking to draw that distinction, then I can understand the purpose of your question.