Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I did not say that I did not do it, I said that I had nothing to do with them.  The Co-ordinator would speak to the Intelligence Officer and the Intelligence Officers would then have access to the whole Intelligence system of the country.  If, for instance, you could not speak directly to National Intelligence, then through their own structures they would make inquiries.  It was not my task and in terms of our operational procedures, we were not allowed to have contact in a direct way and this would not mean that we did not do it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now would you agree that you were the cog in the wheel in relation to the decision?  Although the Head of the - the Chairman had to ratify your decision, you were, as Managing Director of this collection of people, you were the person who really had to make sure that decisions were made on reliable information and a value judgment was made that this was indeed a person to be eliminated.  Would you take responsibility along those lines?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, you've just said many things.  I was responsible at my level, but I was not responsible for the decisions of the Chairperson.  On my level I have to be responsible that I've finalised the plan and that my subordinates did it and for this I accept responsibility.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me ask you this.  On your level, did you consider your level a most important one, in order to give the Chairman, Gen Webb, who was to put the final stamp of approval, correct information, correctly evaluated, both on fact and on the morality that you operated on?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, that was my responsibility.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, have you heard of the organisation for Lawyers for Human Rights?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, I've heard of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was its Chairman during your stewardship?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was Mr Dullah Omar, if I recall correctly.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was the Chairman of Lawyers for Human Rights?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Who was its Vice-Chairman?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was its National Director?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who were the members of its National Council?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I would not know that.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many officers did it have in the country?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Bizos, I can trap you in two minutes on the same basis.  I did not have to know it.  I had a structure who was responsible for investigating those things if it was necessary.

GEORGE BIZOS: If I were to tell you that if the information was given to you that Mr Dullah Omar was the Chairman of Lawyers for Human Rights, this structure of yours to gather information knew nothing about Mr Dullah Omar and certainly nothing about Lawyers for Human Rights, what would you say to that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is not true.  Then the whole South African Intelligence structure did not know anything and I am not ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Because Mr Dullah Omar was not even a member of Lawyers for Human Rights.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: We were under that impression.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but you know people shouldn't be killed on impressions, Mr Verster.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Dullah Omar, in my opinion, was someone who acted against the laws of the country at that stage and in my opinion, he was a terrorist just like anyone else.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Bizos.  Mr Verster, you say it was your impression that Mr Omar was the Chairman of the Lawyers for Human Rights.  The Lawyers for Human Rights was never a secret underground organisation.  Why is it, or can you explain why you only had an impression that he was the Chairman, because one could easily establish who was the Chairman of an organisation such as this.  If I want to for instance now today establish who the Chairman is of NADEL, I just get a letterhead and I'll be told that, or I make a phone call to one of their offices and ask that, because no-one would hide that fact because it wasn't secret, so how could it come about that National Intelligence have the impression that somebody is the Chairman of an organisation such as Lawyers for Human Rights, which is so easily established by any layman, let alone an Intelligence officer?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, it was not based on the fact that Mr Omar was the Chairperson of the organisation, it was based on information which was supplied to me and information system and through the channels which I have explained to you that Mr Dullah Omar busied himself with radical structures and supported internal disruption and this led to the degrading of the sovereignty of the country and he was someone who knew of and co-ordinated activities of the ANC and SACP and thereby this could have lead to violence in the country, it could have led to problems in the country and on that basis I saw him as a threat to the State and on that basis, and I did not take that decision, it was the National Security Management system of the country and I was a fighting soldier, if they point out someone to shoot, I will shoot.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you had a discretion.  You had a discretion.  You were not on the battle ground where you saw someone emerging from the trench and you shot, you had a discretion, you had to evaluate information and decide whether or not a person who was not armed and was carrying on his profession, was to be eliminated because of the information given to you, but you know you have given us a standard description of who was to be eliminated.  We know that you were told that he was Chairman for Lawyers for Human Rights and you considered that one of the factors why he had to be eliminated.  Now, as the Chairman has said, you know you only had to look at the telephone book in Pretoria, in Johannesburg and you would have found out that the Directorate of Lawyers for Human Rights was in Pretoria and you would have phoned the Director or even the switchboard operator and asked who the Chairman was and they would have told you that it was Mr Jules Brody, an eminent member of the Johannesburg Bar.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It had nothing to do with me Chairperson, it was not my function to verify information.  Information is information.  Intelligence was confirmed information.  If a plan comes before me, then I have to accept it as such, coming from the Intelligence System and I made decisions according to the intelligence which was placed before me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you told where the information came from?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I knew that the information came from grass root level, from ground level from Region 6, from Mr Britz to me and it was verified and then the Intelligence staff and the rest of the Intelligence system would discuss it and eventually it would arrive at my door.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know from the papers that your colleagues have filed, that the original information came from a gangster.  How difficult would it have been to ask:  "Where does this original information come from?" for you who had the - who was going to be the judge as to whether Mr Omar was to live or die.  True that there was a Court of Appeal in Gen Webb, but you were to make the decision, why didn't you ask:  "where does this information come from?"

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, it came from ground level.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, the "grondvlak" here was a gangster.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That we found out afterwards.  At that stage it was given to me, coming from the police coming from that region and I did not think that it only came from the gangster, it came from the police as well and thereafter it was processed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not only was he a gangster, he also hoodwinked you and took a large sum of money which, according to the evidence, he did nothing for, to earn it.