Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When we were about to get into the car, we thought that the firearm was in the bag, we saw the other security officer getting out of that car with a firearm.  I fired in the air only once, because I wanted to prevent him from shooting us.
	We left the scene.  We did not bring that car to the township, we abandoned it at Alrode, next to the place where we had taken the car and we walked to the township.

MR MASHABANE: On that day, were there any people killed or injured?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't understand this then.  The purpose for robbing that car, you use Konig's car to go and rob the security guard's, is that so?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: We used Mr Mampuru's car to rob the firearms from Mr Konig.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: We abandoned the car next to the firms there in Alrode.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the robbing of that car that you used to go and rob Mr Konig, a matter for which you apply for amnesty?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: That is also included in the incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one is that?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The robbing of Mr Mampuru's motor vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that is what I meant by wanting you to refer to these offences in chronological order because you have dealt with this robbing of Mr Konig's firearms when you used Mr Sipura's motor vehicle to do so.  You had to do the one before the other, do you understand?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I wanted you to do it in order.  Do you understand?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: When was Mr Sipura's motor vehicle robbed?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Mr Sipura's car was robbed a day before, that was on the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now it makes sense.  Can you tell us about the offence that occurred, or let me ask you, you say you needed these firearms from which you robbed Mr Konig.  Why did you need that, for SDU purposes?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The purpose of robbing the arms, we did not have firearms and it was during those times when there were fightings.  We were trying by all means to get the firearms, to buy them if possible.  If there were places to disarm or people to disarm, we would even do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Carry on - what offence occurred next?

ADV GCABASHE: Before you go to the next one, have you finished with the first one?  I just have a couple of questions, I might as well ask them here on clarity, unless you hadn't quite finished?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: As far as that incident is concerned, I think my testimony is finished as far as that is concerned, because it ends where we alighted from the vehicle and we walked to the township.

ADV GCABASHE: Just two short questions, just to clarify for me.  You were given information about the firearms that Konig had.  What firearms were you told he had and how many?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: We were told that they normally have shotguns, two shotguns and a pump gun.  We were looking at three firearms.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  The other question relating to the same incident is, how were you able to block Konig's car without being observed, because I thought you said one car was escorting another car and you blocked the one that was escorting the other one?  How were you able to do that without the other chap stopping you?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: We waited for it, when it was appearing from the direction of the bank, there was a place that looked like a stop sign, when it came, we went in front of it.  When it arrived at the stop street, we made it to look like it was just an accident that we stopped at the stop street and he would come behind us.  That is how we planned it.

ADV GCABASHE: And the car that they had been escorting, didn't notice this or didn't stop so there was no action from anybody else?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: No, the car that was being escorted, it went ahead because the street was quite busy.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Selepe.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get to the next matter.

MR MASHABANE: What was the next offence you committed?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The second offence was a robbery of Mr Tshabalala's bakkie, that is also related to the shooting of Glen Thompson and the attempted murder of Mr Gehlig.
	It was on a Thursday when I received instructions from my senior MK who is the one who gave me a mandate to establish the Defence Unit.
	He did not specify but he told me that he had brought material, some material for me and he failed to bring that material, to get into the township with that material because there were roadblocks.
	He wanted me to go there and fetch this material, because he only managed to leave it at Duduza.  The following day it became necessary for us to get a car that would go to Duduza and fetch that material.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that material?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: On that telephone conversation, he told me about the material, but I knew because we would refer to a material as the weapons or firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: So let's talk about firearms.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Firearms.  The following day in the morning, when I woke up, I thought that going to Duduza I would need transport.
	I tried to get the nearest person who would assist me in getting a transport to Duduza.  I went to a member of ANC Youth League in Tokoza, whose name was Thami Mdlala.  I told him to assist me in looking for a car, I had a mission that was going to take place in the evening.
	Indeed, we went next to Angus, that is another industrial area in the firms.  We waited there, there were a lot of cars coming in, but those were just private cars.  Our intention was to get a company car.  A bakkie appeared in that process.
	I saw the driver wearing some duster coats and there were also registrations on top of the car.  I went straight to him and I pointed.  When he came with that car, I pointed him with a firearm.   It was a Nissan bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you pointed at the driver, and then?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: After pointing him a firearm, I told him that I - I asked him to borrow us a car for a short while.  He would get his car back, because we wanted to use it.  What he said was that he could give us a car, as long as we were not going to do anything to him.
	He gave me the keys and I got into the car, I started the car and I went to place it.  On that day, during the day, I went to tell one of the comrades, the SDUs, comrade Jamane, that in the evening, I told him that in the evening we were supposed to go and fetch the arms.  He prepared himself.
	In the evening, I went to fetch comrade Thami Mdlala.  I also went to fetch comrade Vusi and comrade Jamane.  I had already told them that we were going to Duduza to fetch the firearms.  We were given the address, we went to Duduza and even the person that we were to find there at Duduza, was a person that was known to me.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you take this bakkie from the driver?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: It was in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: What time?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Roundabout nine or ten o'clock, I cannot remember because it happened some time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and what time did you go to Duduza?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When we moved from the township, it was roundabout five, half past five, but it was in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did you spend in Duduza?  Let me ask you, what time did you leave Duduza after all your business?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I think we left Duduza, I cannot remember how much time did we spend there.  I think it was about past six, it was in the evening, roundabout past six.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it dark or was it light?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When we left Duduza, it was not completely dark, but it was in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Twilight?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then what happened?  Now you are going back to Tokoza?