Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-11

MR JANSEN: You would agree or would you accept that it was proven during the Harmse Commission that the Kombi belonging to a trade union from the Eastern Cape was stolen on the 4th of August 1981 in Johannesburg.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] should be handed over to van Rensburg, not to Erasmus.

MR JANSEN: No, I accept that Mr Chairman, I only - the only difference is the versions go as follows - that's Schoon's version, Coetzee's version is - it was in fact handed to Erasmus.

UNKNOWN: To Erasmus.

MR JANSEN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR JANSEN: As commanding officer in Port Elizabeth, you were very worried about the bomb attacks?

MR ERASMUS: Definitely yes.

MR JANSEN: And you were also aware of the fact that it was suspected that Kondile was part of the sabotage attempts.

MR ERASMUS: I don't think that there was information available that he was part of that but as I heard he assisted the persons who had to infiltrate to commit sabotage.

MR JANSEN: This suspicion would require your pertinent attention?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct, yes.

MR JANSEN: I want to put it to you that I find it extremely strange that on the ...[indistinct] of August there was a bomb explosion in a shopping centre and Kondile suspected to have information about that especially where individuals were involved, that he was taken to Komatiepoort two days later to be killed.

MR ERASMUS: You find it strange Sir, but if you have listened to the evidence given here by Mr du Plessis, he said that information regarding who was responsible - and he mentioned a name: "Walk Tall", was responsible for these bomb explosions together with somebody else.
	He had already conveyed the information regarding possible saboteurs he had given to us.  He was in detention for a long time and he couldn't provide anymore information.

MR JANSEN: When you decided Mr Kondile had to be killed, did you think of informing the area like the border - he was also interrogated there, to inform them that you were going to murder him?

MR ERASMUS: We did not do that.

MR JANSEN: In conclusion, it's not clear to me how you as the Eastern Cape, why you had an intelligence network in Lesotho, was it your own intelligence network or was it a network shared with Bloemfontein for example?

MR ERASMUS: We had an intelligence network and I think Border also had a partial intelligence network.  All areas tried to obtain information from the neighbouring states pertaining to their areas.

MR JANSEN: But this intelligence network in Lesotho itself, the principle agent and the agents there, would they be handled via Bloemfontein?

MR ERASMUS: Bloemfontein had their own informers in Lesotho, we had our own informers in Lesotho, we worked through a principle agent.  I did not work on grassroots level, that was how I was informed.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there's one matter which isn't strictly re-examination, it's something which I should have mentioned in evidence in chief.  If it's something which is going to give rise to a problem, please stop me.
	Mr Erasmus, during your evidence in chief you experience pressure from the top, perhaps I've forgotten to ask you one thing, what role did the politicians play regarding this pressure exerted on you?

MR ERASMUS: The politicians' role was political statements made by them, for example ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: What?

MR ERASMUS: For example that the terrorists had to be hunted and eliminated and it was ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: It was generally publicised in the newspapers and over the radio.

MR ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Erasmus, you testified that you were influenced to follow a certain policy, amongst others, by the church, your Afrikaner background etc., but as a policeman, is it not so that there was a lot of criticism against such policy.  Every time there was criticism against this policy, the security police reacted against those people, for example against
terrorists, is that correct?

MR ERASMUS: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Would you agree that you assisted to form such an attitude, such a feeling?

MR ERASMUS: I was part of that system.

JUDGE PILLAY: And you also assisted to promote these circumstances so that so many people could believe in that.

MR ERASMUS: I don't understand what you are saying.

JUDGE PILLAY: According to you more and more people, for example, protecting the public so that they would subscribe to such a policy, you helped to convey this idea, you helped to promote the apartheid's policy.

MR ERASMUS: I contributed to that.

JUDGE PILLAY: By for example, to handle the media, to interfere in the media and to prevent that they could criticise the policy.

MR ERASMUS: No, I don't think we could interfere with the media to prevent them from criticising the policy.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well, ironically enough I have to concede that the apartheid system did not come into operation if those people criticised it because black and white suffered because of the activities of the police whenever they criticised that policy.

MR ERASMUS: That's correct, yes but those people were then in the opposition.

JUDGE PILLAY: It's my duty ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

JUDGE PILLAY: It is my duty - and I must take into consideration when I assess this application, to understand how these circumstances which you've also assisted in establishing, how could that act in your favour.  You certainly helped to create these circumstances, how could that assist you if you've tried in establishing it?

MR ERASMUS: I think the circumstances were created by the politicians, we act on behalf of the state not the government.

JUDGE PILLAY: Is that all?

MR ERASMUS: It is so, yes, I acted on behalf of the state.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

MR ERASMUS: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] refer to Volume 4, I think it's page 18 - page 17 and 18.  Reference is made that two policemen were killed during this period of time at Butterworth.

MR ERASMUS: Is it the report of the Daily Despatch?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR ERASMUS: 17 or 18?

UNKNOWN: On page 18, the 5th paragraph
"since last Friday when the two men escaped from a police roadblock on the Transkei border.  The gang had murdered two Transkei policemen in Butterworth"
And on the previous page reference is also made to three other policemen, Sergeant Grebe - I cannot see their names now, who were also wounded fatally or seriously.

MR ERASMUS: I see that.

UNKNOWN: So, during this period at the end of August, there were skirmishes between the police and the freedom fighters?

MR ERASMUS: That's correct, in the border area, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Erasmus, one short question, did you have personal knowledge of the existence of the principle agent in Lesotho and of the network that surrounded him or did you simply rely on your junior officers knowing about it and having established it?

MR ERASMUS: I did not work at grassroots level, so I would not have personal knowledge of this agent nor would I have known his name because I was not doing field work at grassroots level.

ADV GCABASHE: So it really boils down to once again relying on what your junior officers knew of the matter and on the basis of that you then came to your decision with the other ...[indistinct] to eliminate Sizwe Kondile?

MR ERASMUS: Unfortunately that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: I call Mr Raath ...[intervention]