Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And Koper Myburgh gave you the instruction to go to Koesterfontein to go and help build car bombs.  Later that day you left with the two Bothas to Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: There you helped Koekemoer to build the bomb in the trailer.

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And later that Sunday Jan de Wet arrived at Koesterfontein.

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but he then again left Koesterfontein.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Okay, he left again.  The following morning, the Monday, that is the day the bomb exploded in Germiston, Jan de Wet went back?

J H VLOK: To Koesterfontein, yes Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: To Koesterfontein and you hooked the trailer on the back of Jan de Wet's vehicle and Koekemoer gave you instructions to load extra sand in the trailer?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, the sand was already loaded in before Mr de Wet arrived.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why is it then that contradictory to your statement?  Look at page 99.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, the trailer, myself and Etienne Le Roux and Cliff Barnard towed this trailer to a certain place where we loaded the sand.  Mr Koekemoer helped us to load the sand on top of the bomb in order to give it weight, then Mr de Wet arrived where he hooked the trailer and Mr Koekemoer connected the wires in order for it to go to the front and that showed me that I must remove the wires when the trailer was unhooked in order to detonate the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok can you explain the contradiction,
we heard what happened, can you please explain to us the contradiction, that's the question Mr Kriel is asking you.

J H VLOK: Put the question again please?

CHAIRPERSON: I put it to you that there's a contradiction but you asked me to repeat the question.  Apparently, please understand, apparently there's a contradiction with what you said in your oral evidence and what's written in paragraph 30 of your application.  All Mr Kriel wants to know or all he asked you is are you in a position to explain the contradiction to which he referred.  Can you explain that or can you not.  If you are in a position to explain this, please do so.  Thank you.
	No, Mr Kriel, he does not understand what the contradiction is, could you please point it out to him?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If you read paragraph 30, the next day:  "The Monday, we hooked this trailer onto the back of the vehicle of Jan de Wet.  Koekemoer gave us an instruction to throw sand or soil on the bomb in the trailer to give it extra weight."
	So the point I'm trying to make is that Jan de Wet was present, he was there, he formed part of the loading of the sand into the trailer and in your oral evidence you said just now, a few minutes ago, that de Wet only arrived later after you've thrown sand on the bomb and that's when he arrived.

J H VLOK: Is that the contradiction?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is the contradiction.

J H VLOK: Chairperson, this is how I saw it and during consultation there was more clarity about this event and that's when we consulted with our representatives, Advocate Louisa van der Walt that is, in order to get better clarity on this whole thing because I can't remember everything because things happened which I forgot about and therefore we consulted to get a better perspective on this whole case.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And specifically to remove these contradictions?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did you tell her that this was contradictory?  Did you tell her paragraph 30 is not correct?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I didn't.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Vlok, the loading of the sand into the trailer is quite an important issue, surely you can recall that?  Give us the facts now as you remember them.  Let's just make sure what is your version with regards to the facts.

J H VLOK: I was given instruction ....[intervention]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sorry, I do not want you to speak about the instruction, I'm talking about the loading of the sand into the trailer, can you still remember it, can you see it?  How you physically loaded the sand into the trailer.  Where was the trailer, where was the vehicle?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, how I remembered it is we hooked the trailer on Etienne's vehicle, we pulled it to the land where there was a lot of loose soil, we took spades and used the spades to throw sand on the back of the trailer.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You said it was hooked to Mr Le Roux's vehicle?

J H VLOK: Yes, we pulled it into the land.  There's a road right next to the land, we unhooked the trailer and we unloaded the sand in there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you said it was Mr Le Roux's car who towed the trailer there?  What kind of vehicle was it?

J H VLOK: I cannot remember exactly what vehicle it was Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What colour was it?

J H VLOK: I cannot remember, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why do you remember that it was Le Roux's vehicle?

J H VLOK: Because it was said there that it was Le Roux's vehicle.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But you do not know?

J H VLOK: I cannot say with certainty.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why do you say things under oath which you do not know?  That's the question.  If you do not know that why should we believe anything else you say?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, that's how I saw it that it was Etienne Le Roux's vehicle.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir, so you drove with de Wet to Germiston?

J H VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: In paragraph 31 you talk about the fact that later on the radio you heard about the explosion in Germiston.  Was that the car radio you're talking about which was in the car or were these the extra radios you were carrying to be in connection with each other or both?

J H VLOK: It was the car radio, sir.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So De Wet's car had a car radio in it?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So you could listen to the news on the car radio?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: You said "we loaded sand into the trailer" - who is the "we"?

J H VLOK: Me, Etienne Le Roux ....[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Give the answer in the light of what Mr Malan asked you - how do you remember the facts now - who are the "we"?  Who took the car and the trailer to the land, who had the spades etc?

J H VLOK: Sir, Etienne le Roux was there, I was there, Cliff Barnard, Abraham Myburgh and Koekemoer was there.  We hooked the trailer, we unhooked it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was de Wet there?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson.  We hooked the trailer, we drove then we stopped, we unhooked it, we loaded the sand in the trailer and at that stage de Wet arrived.  He turned around his car, we stopped him, we hooked the car to this trailer.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue, did de Wet arrive there while you were busy loading the sand or were you finished?

J H VLOK: No, we were finished, we were standing there and then de Wet arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: And the trailer was still hooked onto Le Roux's vehicle when de Wet arrived?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was Le Roux's vehicle?

J H VLOK: He pulled it away.

CHAIRPERSON: But was the vehicle there?  Mr Le Roux's vehicle that is?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you unhook it?

J H VLOK: Because instructions were given that Jan de Wet would tow the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

J H VLOK: Cliff Barnard, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that de Wet was going to come?

J H VLOK: We waited for him, Chairperson because he was tasked to come there.  He was tasked to hook the trailer onto his vehicle because I was told to drive with them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The contradictions in paragraph 30, when did you notice them?

J H VLOK: Now you mentioned it to me, Chairperson.