Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: : The fact that Mr Martin, who was a relatively senior person in the higher rank of the AWB at that stage, doesn't it seem to you a little bit suspicious that he himself did not know where you were going to and what you were going to do.   He speaks about home penetration and he was not yet informed that there would be a road-block.   How does this happen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is how I did my military operation.   As just before we took action, that's when the persons found out what we were to do.   That is why at Mr Martins home, we discussed the issue.

MR DREYER: : Mr Kloppers when I put it to you this morning, that this was the first time that I hear that at the road-block you explicitly told the people:  `We will put up a road-block.   This is the real McCoy.   There will be corpses.'  And then you said that you testified to that.  So what is happening now?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is not what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: : It's not what he said.

MR DREYER: : Mr Chairman, I remember very distinctly that at a point, I put it to Mr Kloppers.   I was putting it to him that the whole idea of the decision about having a road-block was postponed to a very late stage, and I also referred to that eventually only at the scene of the road-block, a small group of people were called aside and said:  `This is now the thing.   We are going to kill these people.'  And he denied that he said that he testified that already at the road house.  He informed them that it's the real McCoy, and this is what -there is going to be a road-block.   Now he turns around and said it was ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: : I don't recall him particularly this morning, telling us that already at the road house, he told them that there was going to be a road-block.   I do recall him saying that he told them at the road house that it was going to be a real McCoy - that I recall.

MR DREYER: : And that there is going to be corpses?

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes.   But he did not say that it was going to be a road-block.   He never said... he added that portion at the road house, Mr Dreyer.

MR DREYER: : I might have got the wrong impression and for that purposes ...

CHAIRPERSON: : I understood him to say that that was only mentioned at Martin's house.

MR DREYER: : I accept that, Mr Chairman.   Okay, let's accept that.   You say already at the road-block, you told the persons this is the real McCoy;  there would be corpses.   You just don't tell them there would be a road-block?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Mr Chairperson, you are struggling with your own words.   It was not at the road-block.   It was at the road house cafe.

MR DREYER: : I want to give the second alternative to you.

ADV BOSMAN: But you are talking of a road-block, instead of a road-house cafe.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Chairman, I would please request my learned friend not to interrupt me.   If she doesn't know where I'm going with my question.   I said I accept now that I might have misinterpreted his evidence, so I'm putting it at a totally different stage now.   If only at the road-block he said - and I am not referring to the road house now.   I am referring to the road-block now.   If I might proceed, Mr Chairman.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Repeat the question please.

MR DREYER: : Sir, let's put it to you or let's ask you.   According to what you said a little while earlier, this is how you planned operations.   You keep the information secret until the last moment.   Is that what you testified?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Yes that is what I did.

MR DREYER: : I asked if that is what you testified?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : You need to draw our attention to one of these two sides.   At the road-block did you call aside a group of people and told them this is what is going to be done.   These are the ANC persons.   We are going to shoot them right now.  Is that your version now, or are you saying - at the road house cafe you told the persons there would be corpses, because it's the real McCoy.   What is the truth now?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : You asked me a dual question but to answer the first question - at the road-block, I did call them aside and told them this is our target group - we will shoot them now from the line, and we shot them.   At the road cafe, I put it to them clearly that this was the real McCoy and there had to be corpses, and our target group is the ANC, SACP Alliance people.

MR DREYER: : Very well.   Let's get back to the line of my questioning.   Your military position - you say that the use of alcohol is not in line with military precision.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Now I wish to know from you the fact that while you are driving around with a person that, in comparison with you, would be at the same level of rank with Mr Martin, that between the two of you, there is still discussion as to whether it would be home penetration or whether it would be a road-block?   Does this testify to planned military precision?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : The planned military precision was done at Mr Martin's plot.   He suggested that we do home penetration, that was not discussed.   I told him that this was not under discussion.   General Oelofse wanted a road-block with corpses.

MR DREYER: : Then why did the two of you, during the Criminal Procedures, testify that the reason as to why there was no home penetration was not because there was an instruction for a road-block, but both of you during the Criminal Procedures testified that the reason for this was there were not enough people in the group that had experience to this, and it would be a dangerous thing to do this without experienced personnel.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : My team were trained soldiers.   I had no problem with their ability.  What I was trying to do there was I was trying to protect them and I was trying to take them under the wing, by saying that they could not do home penetration.   But the level of my answer during this Criminal Procedure was not true.   As I said it was thrown out in the Supreme Court.

MR DREYER: : I do not understand.  Now you are saying the whole version was thrown out and then earlier you said you were a trustworthy witness.

CHAIRPERSON: : Let's proceed to the next question.   Proceed to the next question.

MR DREYER: : You did not answer my previous question.   I asked you why you and Mr Martin during the Criminal Procedures, said that the reason why there was no home penetration was because there was a lack of military experience in this and not because there was an instruction to put up a road-block.   Why not?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That was not the truth.

MR DREYER: : Good.   That was not the truth?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR MALAN: : Excuse me, I am interested in the answer to this question.   We will accept that it was not the truth.   But why did you say so?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I was still trying to protect General Oelofse by not saying that he gave us direct instruction to put up a road-block.

MR DREYER: : Now if you were trying to protect General Oelofse by not saying this, then I don't understand because you never received an instruction from General Oelofse to do home penetration.   How are you protecting him by omitting this, or how are you protecting him by saying that this was not the truth.   He did not give any instruction to any home penetration.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He did not give any instructions to any home penetration.   He did not give an instruction for home penetration.   He said we should put up a road-block.