Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

ALAN TYANI: My request is to ask Stembile's mother to accept this because when this all happened I was not looking for her son, fighting her son, I was defending the government.  Secondly, the Panel, I would request the Panel to try and help me to get my money from the government because I never received a salary thereafter.  That is all Sir, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Chairperson, I would request a five minute adjournment, I just would like to ascertain if Capt Spambo is here, I think we will gain more in a five minute adjournment.  If he's merely going to confirm some of the evidence that was not disputed I see no reason to call him then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: Otherwise I might use the necessary time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are going to take the tea adjournment for 10 minutes exactly.  We'll reconvene in 10 minutes time.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mnqandi, what is your position?

MR MNQANDI: Thank you Chairperson, we will not be calling any witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: That will be the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the applicant's case, yes.  Thank you.
	Mr Mapoma, what is your situation?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I have got one witness to call, Mr Chris Shlobo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he available Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, he's available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, will Mr Shlobo please come forward?
Yes will he be seated over there Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Pardon Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Is he okay there?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Yes Mr Shlobo, would you need the headsets, are you going to testify in what language?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Xhosa, then you had better put on that headset.  Just assist him to get onto the right channel there?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: (sworn states)

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Shlobo, is it correct that during 1987/89 period, 88/89 period you were a member of the Transkei Police in the security division?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: From 1983 to 1987 I was a member of the Security Branch.  I was transferred from Namkutu, Butterworth, in 1986, 1987 I was there.

MR MAPOMA: We are now dealing with the application for amnesty surrounding the circumstances which relate in particular to the attempted murder on the life of one Sthembele Zokwe.  Do you know Sthembele Zokwe?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know anything about the event that took place at Timgolo near Lebote in 1987?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Would you briefly tell this Committee how did you happen to know that or to be involved?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: First of all what happened is I heard from Mr Gumengu that there was an operation that was to be done in Umtata.  Tami Moweli was the person they were looking for, Tami Moweli was associated with Sthembele Zokwe in connection with the ANC movements so whilst I was preparing to go home he told me not to go home because we're going to that operation because that was my weekend off.  We then went from Butterworth.  It was myself, Gumengu, Sgt Nogana and other members.  They were using another car.  When we arrived in Umtata we went to the branch, the Security Branch in Norwood whereby we were briefed by the police of Umtata, they were the ones who knew where Moweli stayed so we went from the branch, we went to Moweli's place.  When we arrived there, other police went in and then some of the police surrounded the house.  Myself, Gumengu and Nogana, we patrolled around the house and around the Royal Hotel nearby.
	After a while, I think after 9 or before 10 at night we saw a Mercedes Benz, a white Mercedes Benz stopping next to the post office.  Two men got out of the car, one of them we identified him as Mr Sthembele Zokwe.  We didn't know who the other person was.  So we approached Sthembele, we asked to speak to him.  The man who was with him proceeded to go inside the hotel.  When we arrived in the car I asked him about the arms because we had information that he had hidden arms in Butterworth so he told me that he had spoken with Brig Dingane about all that but he didn't say that at first.

MR MAPOMA: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you, when you were asking or questioning him about the arms who was with you as your colleagues?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: It was the three of us because we were in the car if I'm not mistaken.

MR MAPOMA: Which three of you?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: It was myself, Mr Gumengu and Nogane.

MR MAPOMA: Yes proceed then upon your interrogation of him about the weapons?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He told us that he had spoken with Brig Dingane.  I can't remember whether Gumengu asked him again but whilst we were still questioning him he said that there were arms in Umtata so he can lead us to the place where those arms were.  A person was driving a car, I think it was Mr Nogane who was instructed to drive the car.  We then went to the ...(indistinct) and I heard later on that it was in Umbolo.  When we arrived in that village there were some lights there and I found out later on that it was a quarry and there was a house there and then I found out that it was a dynamite house that was used in the quarry.  Gumengu was the one next to the door, he went out, Sthembele followed.  I following and Mr Nogane followed afterwards.  They were far from the car.  I was armed with an R1, so I took my R1.  After doing that, I don't know who said Sthembele was running away and when I saw him he was running away and there were dongas around and Gumengu then chased him.
	After a while I heard a gunshot and I didn't see where they were.  Gumengu then came out of the place.  He then said that he had shot Sthembele, Sthembele was trying to take his weapon from him so he said that he'd shot him, so he told us to go back to Umtata.  We went back to Umtata to the branch.  When we arrived in Umtata.  Because other members did not find Tami Moweli they were going back to Butterworth.

MR MAPOMA: Okay now just clarify this, when you got out of the car, who went out of the car first?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: It was Mr Gumengu because he was sitting in the passenger seat.  Sthembele followed, I followed and then the driver followed after me.

MR MAPOMA: Yes?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He was also armed with the R1.

MR MAPOMA: At the time when Gumengu, I mean when the deceased ran away, how far were you from the deceased?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: The distance from where I'm sitting to where you are sitting towards the house of the dynamite house, it's from where I'm sitting to where you are sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about seven paces.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.
	And how far was Gumengu from you?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Gumengu was next to Sthembele because Gumengu was the first one to get out of the car and then Sthembele followed, I think it was only one pace from Sthembele to Gumengu.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Is there a moment where before Sthembele ran away when Gumengu first left you, was there any moment?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: No, he went out of the car and then afterwards Sthembele followed.  They went towards the direction of the dynamite house.

MR MAPOMA: I will tell you why, there is evidence before this Committee from Mr Gumengu where he says that he left you with Sthembele in the car and went to relieve himself at the dongas and thereafter he saw the deceased running away from you and then it's only then that he chased you.  What is your comment to that?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: When I was taking out my firearm they were in front of me, both of them.  Sthembele ran away when I was closing the door, the passenger door, it was when he ran away.

MR MAPOMA: Now when Sthembele ran away did you all chase him?