Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-25

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I will call Mr Oupa Khotle.

JUDGE WILSON: How long will you be, it's now five to one?

MR MTHEMBU: Not long, but certainly not shorter than five minutes Mr Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, we'll carry on for a bit.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.

OUPA KHOTLE: (sworn states)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Khotle is it correct that you are a member of the PAC as well as its military wing, APLA?

OUPA KHOTLE: Yes it is so Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that during or about 1992 you were the high ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Before you go on can I clarify something.  I understand you have made an application for amnesty.

OUPA KHOTLE: Yes that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: I have not had an opportunity of seeing your application but I have been told that you have not made application in respect of the incidents giving rise to the killing of Mr Fourie in February 1992, is that correct?

OUPA KHOTLE: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you any objection to giving evidence in connection with that incident and the matters surrounding it?

OUPA KHOTLE: I don't have a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  Carry on.
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MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Khotle it's further correct that during or about 1992 you were the commander responsible for the Botshabelo area within the realms of APLA and the PAC?

OUPA KHOTLE: It is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Now do you know the four applicants before this Committee, that is Mr Leeuw, Magoda, Nkwegdi and May?

OUPA KHOTLE: I know all of them very well.

MR MTHEMBU: Were they members of the organisation, is that how you know them?

OUPA KHOTLE: They were members of the PAC until they were transferred to the task force.  It was one of the units that advocated the struggle of the Africans against oppression that we lived under from these people that are referred to as Whites.  In that way being members of the PAC also being a person responsible and I identify people who were to advocate the armed struggle then I picked them out as important people these honourable men and Africans who came here for amnesty.  They did undergo a crash course.  The important thing here is that APLA as any other organisation has got a chain of commands and task force was a unit outside APLA.  However, it was part of PAC to advocate the armed struggle.
	I can explain this manner about the task force.  It had specific duties to carry out, however, the commander of this force has the authority to designate duties for them to carry out which were in the name of the organisation itself.  The duties of task force was to defend and/or protect the organisation against I can say infiltration or attacks from other organisations or vigilantes who were against the organisation.  As I have said its commander has got the 
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authority to designate duties except these that I have just explained.  For example duties to go and attack or offensive tasks to carry out.  The commander has got such authority and as we have observed as from the eighties the year was referred to as the year of intensification or revolution, the time of Uncle Zefanye Matupeng.  In 1990 this year was referred to as the year People's Offensive.  We established this that we refer to as the Great Storm.  Great Storm was established because of the people's offensive against oppression, exploitation and social depression.
	That's what happened, it's a fact.  The late comrade John Showa, who was one of the seniors in APLA and who was responsible for the task force operations being a person that I am well known to because I was a member of APLA.  He requested me to identify people who can be important to take our struggle forward.  Our armed struggle forward.  I did that job.  I can tell this Commission that these Africans who are here explaining their deeds are not the only ones that I have identified and let them meet seniors within APLA to come and undergo this crash course so that we take our struggle forward.  There are some of them who might appear before you.  Our struggle was not dependent on colour, it was a struggle against the oppressors, against the attackers of Africans, briefly I could refer to them as Whites, they were part of this operation.  When the Africans received this crash course I was present even though I was not charged with the duties of the task force I was charged with the duties of APLA.  However it was my duty because APLA was not what I could refer to as an organ that can take the struggle forward alone.  The task force and the community was part of the struggle and we observed that they are what 
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we refer to as mass protest and demonstrations.  There are political actions that can be taken up by the community.  On the other hand APLA involved arms struggle which we can refer to as military operation. Task force, even though it didn't have the training that APLA members received did have this privilege of taking forward the struggle because it's history and no one would say it doesn't know that Africans were oppressed at that time.  So these Africans were trained because every member of the crash course who would be recruited will be asked questions and we would want to see whether this African does he have understanding of the country's political situation.  If we are satisfied that they do have the understanding, great understanding of politics within the country it is only then that we can treat them as fit and proper people to take participation in the task force and undergo a crash course.  
	It has two parts, ideological and political, then follows the military part of it, weapon handling, battle formations and such other things.   Due to the limited time and place where at that time we were not able to render, especially at the locations, proper training to these members because the enemy was all over looking for us.  They were given important facts, those that were necessary to take the struggle forward.

ADV DE JAGER: As far as this present case is concerned did you give any orders to the four applicants?