Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well, that is the road that you are discussing now.

ADV PRIOR: You said you couldn't go along the dirt road, because it was too mushy?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, that is right.

ADV PRIOR: Because of the weather?  So which road did you go, which road did you follow?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We went the other way, heading to Hlangano.

ADV PRIOR: So you went further away from Onverwacht?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: yes.

ADV PRIOR: Right, you went to Hlangano and then where, did you turn up towards where?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Then up to Hlatikulu, that is all tarred road now sir.  Hlatikulu, and then up towards Manzini and then back the other way.

ADV PRIOR: So even though you had a 4 x 4 vehicle, you didn't want to travel the 30 kilometres to Culel, but went via a ...(indistinct) route?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It is not a ...(indistinct) route Mr Chairman,it is the right way to go.  I did know the area, I was from there.

ADV PRIOR: Did you tell Mr Botha that you were going to take this route back and you wouldn't be able to get back before the border post closed?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We knew once we had done the handover, we were not going to get back in time for the border.

ADV PRIOR: Did you tell him, that is the question?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, I told him.

ADV PRIOR: So he was aware that he wouldn't see you that evening?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: He was aware.

ADV PRIOR: You say it was difficult, it would have been difficult to find out where Ms Ndwandwe lived.  Mr Botha's evidence was that you had her address?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We had a couple of her addresses, but you couldn't tell where she would be on Monday night, or which one on Tuesday.

ADV PRIOR: At Onverwacht, did you take part in any interrogation of her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, I didn't Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: What was her condition when you saw her at Onverwacht the next morning?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She was relaxed, she was fine Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Was she handcuffed?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I can't recall that, no, no.

ADV PRIOR: Would she have been, surely she would have been restrained in case she tried to escape?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, at Onverwacht, at the border post?

ADV PRIOR: At the safe house, where she spent the evening with the others?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I can't recall if she was handcuffed.

ADV PRIOR: Was she shackled?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: With foot shackles?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: She never complained to you about anything?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No.

ADV PRIOR: She seemed calm?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She was calm Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: She wasn't complaining about her predicament?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She didn't complain to me about her predicament at all Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did you travel with her back to Pietermaritzburg, in the same vehicle that is?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was in the same vehicle, but in the front with Mr Du Preez.

ADV PRIOR: And was she being interrogated in that vehicle or was not much said?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, they were talking in the back of the vehicle Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Having a discussion?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Questions and answers, the vehicle is blocked off.  The driver cannot see, the front crew cannot see into the back Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: So you don't know what occurred in the back there, apart from that you heard a discussion of sorts?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And you can't tell us whether she gave any important information up or not, over that period?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was briefed on that when we got to the Maritzburg farm.

ADV PRIOR: At Pietermaritzburg, how long did she spend at that safe house, sorry, on the farm?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She was there all the time Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Until what time, what time was she taken out, was it in the early evening to be killed?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was already dark Mr Chairman, I would say 19H00, 20H00.

ADV PRIOR: And at that safe house, were you there most of the day?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was, most of the day, yes.

ADV PRIOR: Did you interrogate her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did Du Preez interrogate her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Well, who interrogated her?  Do you know?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Botha Mr Chairman, and Mr Steyn, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did you see that?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I looked in the room, Mr Chairman, yes, I saw them talking with her.

ADV PRIOR: From time to time, you would pop in?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is exactly right Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: For what purpose?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: To hear how things were going, and to listen.

ADV PRIOR: Did you also pop in from time to time when Mr Labuschagne and Mr Verwey were interrogating her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, I did Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: This must have been an intense interrogation?  I mean you had a dangerous terrorist in your custody?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: What are you trying to say Mr Chairman?

ADV PRIOR: Just answer the question, was it an intense interrogation?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Was it a casual interrogation?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: By the evening stage, I think it was casual to my mind, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: She had been interrogated virtually the whole of that day?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well Mr Chairman, if that is an intensive interrogation to your mind, then that is how it is.

ADV PRIOR: And the decision had already been made at Onverwacht to eliminate her?  You have heard that evidence?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I have heard the evidence.

ADV PRIOR: So what were you trying to, what were you trying to get out of her?  Information I would imagine?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well, I would imagine information Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And she wasn't giving the information, is that correct, because it took so long.  You said the interrogation lasted until the virtually the evening?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I never had any interrogation to do with her Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Wasn't the case that she was a very hard nut to crack?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is so Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And she remained defiant to the bitter end?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And she refused to cooperate with the Security Branch?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: In my presence, that is correct, yes.

ADV PRIOR: And I should imagine there was no difference, her being a female and being treated in a certain way, as Nxiweni was treated being a male person, he was punched and slapped on his body?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She wasn't punched or slapped on her body.

ADV PRIOR: Why not, what was the difference?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She just wasn't.

ADV PRIOR: Because she was a female, are you saying that there was some sense of chivalry shown to her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: You are saying that.

ADV PRIOR: No, I am trying to find out Mr Wasserman, because we can't, you are not prepared to volunteer anything.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she was not assaulted at all.

ADV PRIOR: She must have known at some stage, she was going to be  executed, would you agree?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I am unable to say so Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Well, when you led her out of the house, was she blindfolded?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She was blindfolded and believed she was going to be collected and moved to another safe house.

ADV PRIOR: Is that what you told her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And what did she say?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She accepted that, she had no choice.

ADV PRIOR: And then you clubbed her on the head from behind?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did you strike her on the, can you maybe just tell us, because the post mortem showed a fracture and I just want to clarify that.  Did you hit her on the back of the head, on the jaw or can't you remember?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, it was on the right hand side of her head.

MR VISSER: Could my learned friend point the fracture out to us Mr Chairman.