Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I never took a rifle or a firearm on that day and I didn't even have any arm on me on that particular day and the policemen who were on duty on that particular day can clearly explain that I was not armed on that particular day and I never touched any rifle on that day.  These men came scaring me carrying their firearms.  They were threatening me.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, there is a bundle prepared with all the affidavits and documents in.  I want you to page to page 27 of this bundle.  Have you got such a bundle in front of you?  Have you got the bundle in front of you?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes

UNKNOWN: Is that the statement you gave to the Tebbutt Commission?  It begins at the top of the page.  Is that the statement that you made to the Tebbutt Commission?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Is the content thereof correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Sir, if you look at approximately in the middle of the page of page 27, the paragraph starts, "The guarding of General Silike's residence.."

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes I see that.

UNKNOWN: In other words, your main duty was as a guard of this General, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was a policeman and my duty was to guard this General.

UNKNOWN: If you look at the following sentence, it starts with, "On the 10th March, 1994, at about 2200 hours I was sleeping at my place when my neighbour who was in the Bophuthatswana Defence Force came to my place.  He informed me about the presence of the armed AWB members at the  Bophuthatswana Air Force Base.  He said that they had virtually taken over from the regular  Bophuthatswana army.  He informed me that the near presence of the AWB was not acceptable to the  Bophuthatswana Defence Force members."  Is that correct?
	Is it also true that on the 10th March, 1994 at 10 o'clock that evening you became aware of the AWB forces at the Air Force Base, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Am I also correct that if your neighbour did not inform you about this you would not have been aware of this fact?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, according to him I would not have known.

UNKNOWN: Is it also correct that at that stage you did not know anything about the AWB or about their presence?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I heard about these for the first time from this man.

UNKNOWN: You did not know anything about the AWB's activities or goals is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: If you look at page 27, the third line from the bottom.  It is written,
"They had virtually taken over from the regular  Bophuthatswana army."
Who are the 'they' you referred to?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I am referring to the AWB.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct to say that the AWB enforcement was at the Army base at that time?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I only heard about the AWB.

UNKNOWN: But you know that the Volksfront was there as well.  Today we know that.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question, Sir

UNKNOWN: Today we know, Mr Menyatsoe, that the AWB as well as the Volksfront, that the specific evening, both of them were there at the Air Force Base.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, today we know.  That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You were not aware yourself that the AWB actually took over the  Bophuthatswana Defence Force.  Is that correct?  It is only what your neighbour told you.  You did not carry any knowledge of this on your own.  It is, you learnt everything from your neighbour.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he has said that Mr Van Der Berg.  We can accept that.

UNKNOWN: As it pleases you.  Is it also correct that your neighbour told you that the mere presence of the AWB was not acceptable to the black Bophuthatswana Defence Force members?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, he told me that they were against the presence of the AWB and they don't know what is the purpose of their presence and as to who called them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, the dissatisfaction about the AWB's presence relied with your neighbour.  He was the one, not really yourself, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat that question.

UNKNOWN: Look on page 27, second last sentence from the bottom, it begins with, "He informed me that mere presence of the AWB was not acceptable to the local Defence Force members."  Now I am telling you that it is your neighbour who was unhappy about this, not you with regards to the presence of the AWB.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes according to this sentence that is his feeling that he was against their presence because he is a soldier.  I am not a soldier.  I am a policeman.  So it is his feeling expressed here.

UNKNOWN: But didn't the AWB's presence bother you at that stage?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I explained that this disturbed me because of the fact that they took over the Defence Force.  Simply because us as the police, cannot do anything if the backbone of the security, which is the Defence Force has been taken over, I would not know what was going to happen to us at the ultimate end.

UNKNOWN: Did it bother you in any sense that your neighbour told you that the AWB took over the Defence Force.  Did this bother you, the fact that the Defence Force was taken over by the AWB?

CHAIRPERSON: He has just said so, Mr Van Der Berg.  He said it disturbed him because he was then concerned that the police wouldn't be able to control the situation as the backbone of the security was the defence force.

UNKNOWN: Very well, Chairperson.  If your neighbour didn't tell you all of this, you wouldn't have known about it, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have already responded to that.

UNKNOWN: The information, did you try and verify this information your neighbour gave you to make sure that it is in fact correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this getting us anywhere, Mr Van Der Berg, whether he verified it.  Because he said that he went to, in his evidence in chief he said he went to sleep and then the next morning he went to work without his uniform on because he wasn't sure what the situation was.  If he verified, I mean if you are told at ten at night, I mean he would have said if he went to verify it I am sure.  But does it make any difference whether he did or didn't?

UNKNOWN: It seems that later on, ? , he had already made up his mind to put it that way about what he would do the next day.  The point of the issue is, the clarity he had was based on the here say which he received from his neighbours.  These are the two allegations.  That is why it is now important whether he verified this information or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't see the importance.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I get back to this aspect later.  Mr Menyatsoe, if the AWB came, were they there at the invitation of the government in  Bophuthatswana?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat the question.

UNKNOWN: The AWB, were they in Mmabatho on the invitation of the government in  Bophuthatswana?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have explained earlier on that I did not know what was the purpose of the AWB and who called them.  I have previously explained that.

UNKNOWN: So you are saying now, that you do not know whether they invited to go there or not.  Is that what you are saying?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You are repeating the same question.  I told you that I did not know.