Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR BLACK: Yes, no thanks but I understand that - the purpose I just want to in fairness to you and to Mr Bongani Khaba as well, state on record that he has testified, he has applied for amnesty in respect of this particular incident, and he testified that the reason as he understood, why his mother was killed, is that he was in the process of testifying, giving evidence before the Goldstone Commission about the Black Cats, and when they  heard about that and when he came back, while he was away, he came back to find out that his mother had been shot.
	I am just putting it on record as a matter of fairness, that this is his evidence, it has already been testified to.  Thank you, I have no further questions.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Black.  Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to put on record, that I have since Monday been instructed by four other implicated persons to act on their behalf.  I have compiled a list for the benefit of the Evidence Leader.
	It is Superintendent Andre Maree of the SAP in Ermelo,  Warrant Officer James Von Zweel, who is a retired member previously from the SAP in Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the, I thought it was Van Zyl, it is actually Von Zweel?

MR MULLER: Mr Chairman, I am acting on behalf of Mr Von Zweel, I don't know if Van Zyl and Von Zweel will be the same person, but Von Zweel's name is mentioned in E1.
	Then I am also acting on behalf of Inspector Anton Botha from the SAP in Ermelo and Detective Sergeant C.J.D. Meyer, also from the SAP in Ermelo.  I am already on record for Mr Philani Mthethwa from the SAP in Davel.
	Mr Chairman, I would - I don't have any questions for the witness, except to put on record that the Goldstone Commission investigated the allegations that the SAP supported Inkatha or the Black Cats against the ANC, and that investigation took almost a year in 1992.
	It seems to me as if it is not translated to the applicant.  I would like this to be translated to him as well Mr Chairman.  Is it, I am sorry, apparently it is.
	The Goldstone Commission investigated the allegations that the SA Police supported the Black Cats against the ANC and allegations that the cases where ANC people laid charges against, complaints against Black Cats, that it was not investigated properly.  My clients have testified extensively before the Goldstone Commission, they were cross-examined and each and every case, each and every docket was investigated by the Goldstone Commission, who found in their report, and that report 
was before the Amnesty Committee during the last hearing in Ermelo, unfortunately I don't have it here, but I can make it available to the Committee, they found in that report that there is no proof that there was any - the allegations was not proven and there is no proof that the Police supported the Black Cats or didn't investigated cases against the Black Cats.
	On behalf of my clients, Mr Maree, Von Zweel, Botha and Meyer, the allegations of the applicant against them, are denied.  In so far as Mr Mthethwa is concerned, there was an inquest held after the death of Mrs Malinga and it was found that no one could be held responsible for the death of Mrs Malinga.
	The allegations ...

UNKNOWN: Mr Wills, you are interrupting us, we can't hear what is being said.

MR MULLER: On behalf of Mr Malinga, on behalf of Mr Mthethwa, the allegations against him, is also denied.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Muller.  He didn't ask any questions Mr Hlongwane, you will get your opportunity later.
	Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, Mr Muller specifically didn't ask you any questions, he is just putting matters on record.  If he wanted a response from you, he would have asked questions, but he hasn't.  So, therefore there is nothing for you to answer, because this is cross-examination at the moment.
	Under re-examination, if there is something that you want to say, you can say it when Mr Wills gets an opportunity to re-examine you.  Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Hlongwane, could you look at paragraph 52 of your application, that recounts your version of the first meeting you had in Ermelo, with the leaders of the IFP.
	Do you remember that meeting?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR SWANEPOEL: And in your evidence and in your application, you recounted several things that were told to you by Noah, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did Mayor Hlatswayo say anything at that meeting?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: The person who was in charge at the meeting - or the Chairperson was Noah.  He also expressed his views although Noah was the Chairperson of the meeting, he was part of the meeting and he also put forward his view.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but did Mayor Hlatswayo say anything and if so, what?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, he said something.

MR SWANEPOEL: What did he say?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He said he is happy about my arrival and he will be able to sleep well.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  Did he say anything about you killing people or giving you weapons?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I think he was involved, because the money that I used to get as a salary and also the food that they used to give to me, he was part of supplying those things.
	To add, I also got ammunition from his office,  from him personally.  It was a 9 mm gun and one of his licensed firearms.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  At that meeting, did he say anything about giving you weapons or you killing people?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: The death of people was Noah's responsibility.  He was part of it because he gave me ammunitions and money for food.  When I speak of the leadership in Ermelo, I also include him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, the question was at that meeting which is referred to in paragraph 52, at the meeting, did Mr Hlatswayo talk about provision of arms or killing people, that is the question?  At the meeting, did he say anything about killing people or providing arms, at the meeting?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He didn't talk anything about the supply of arms, but he talked about the death of people.

MR SWANEPOEL: For the record Mr Hlongwane, Mayor Hlatswayo denies being involved in the death of people or the supplying of arms.  I put that to you so that you can respond to that.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will answer in this way.  If it was myself and I was told I was involved or implicated, I will refuse, but I know that he was involved, he was happy that I arrived in Ermelo and that they will be able to sleep well.  His personally involved in those incidents, he knows about the rifle, firearms and everything.  You can say this because you were not there, but I know, because I am the one who spoke to him.

MR SWANEPOEL: All right, please look at paragraph 58 of your affidavit, and 59, which recounts the death of the scholars and December.
	This was already canvassed with you yesterday, when you say that Mthu identified the boys as being members of the ANC, what do you mean?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Maybe you didn't understand me, because I said Mthu heard them singing and I also heard them singing ANC slogans.

MR SWANEPOEL: What he said to you was simply, they were singing ANC slogans, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, I said they were singing coming towards me and I also heard them singing.  When he was telling me, I was also hearing them at the same time.
	They were coming closer and closer singing the ANC slogans.  That is what I am saying.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Hlongwane, what did Mthu tell you?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He said can you hear them singing, and I said yes, I can hear them.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you and Mthu discuss the killing of these people before you heard them singing?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I never discussed it with him, because I couldn't take instructions from him.