Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-10

CHAIRPERSON: Good day to you all and as usual we would like to offer our apologies for having been unable to commence this hearing timeously as we had hoped.  I have actually run out of words to say to you in expressing our apologies.  Suffice to say that we are still experiencing teething problems.  Ms Thabete are we now in a position to commence the application of Mr Seshaba?

MS THABETE: Yes Madame Chair we are.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, are you representing Mr Seshaba?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: Kindly place yourself on record, your full names?

MR SHAKOANE: I am gift Shakoane an advocate of the Supreme Court on behalf of Mr Joel Mhlahemi Seshaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is your instructing attorney in respect of this application?

MR SHAKOANE: Instructed by the legal aid.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Ms Thabete for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, we have already wasted a lot of time, wasted the entire morning.  As you can see I'm struggling to smile, I find it very difficult, there hasn't been anything that would give me cause for a smile.  Can we proceed with the application of Mr Seshaba?  Is he going to give evidence under oath?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MR SHAKOANE: Zulu.

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: The ball is in your court Mr Shakoane, you may lead your client's evidence in chief.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks.   Mr Seshaba, what are your full names?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I am Joel Mhlahemi Seshaba.

MR SHAKOANE: Where do you live?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Number 228 Sangweni Section, Tembisa.

MR SHAKOANE: Madame, I've got a short affidavit which I wanted to service an introduction in the evidence that he's going to give, if I may get leave to hand that over?

CHAIRPERSON: You may hand if up and it should be Exhibit B.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have sufficient copies for the Committee?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.  Unfortunately the original is not stapled.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, I note that the affidavit that you've just handed up to the Committee is marked D.

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason why this is already marked D?

MR SHAKOANE: The reason was that it was in accordance with the previous record that was given to me and presently a new record was sent to me in this bundle, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we'll continue then to have this as Annexure B.  You may proceed then Mr Shakoane.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks.  Mr Seshaba, you've seen the document that has been submitted to the Committee as an affidavit presently?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I've seen it.

MR SHAKOANE: Are you fully aware of the contents of that affidavit?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes.

MR SHAKOANE: You confirm what's contained in it?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I confirm everything contained.

MR LAX: Mr Seshaba, can you just speak up a little?  What you're saying is being conveyed around the room and if you do speak up then we'll be able to - the people in the room will be able to hear you through the speaker.  So if you can just try and speak up a little bit please and the same for you Mr Shakoane?

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks.   Mr Seshaba, do you belong to a political organisation?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: Which organisation do you belong to?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: To the ANC.

MR SHAKOANE: When did you join the ANC?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I joined the ANC in 1982 on 13th April.

MR SHAKOANE: Were you a member of any of the organs of the organisation?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I was member of the MK.

MR SHAKOANE: When did you become of member of the MK?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I joined the MK in 1988 on the 2nd March.

MR SHAKOANE: And how did you join the MK?

CHAIRPERSON: We can spare you the need to lead him in respect of how he joined his, I mean how he joined uMkhonto weSizwe, we don't find that to be relevant to these proceedings, we don't need to have that evidence.  We accept that he was a member of MK, that is not in dispute.

MR SHAKOANE: Thanks.  Mr Seshaba in the period during 1992 and 1993 what was happening in the Tembisa Township, including the section where you lived?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: During that period there were the Two Star Gang who resided at Umtambeka Section in Tembisa.  They were trafficking with the IFP which resided at Vusumosi.  The Two Star Gang as well as the IFP were harassing the community, raping, robbing the community of their money, televisions, attacking doctors.

MR LAX: Can you just try and speak a little bit more slowly.  What we're worried about is that everything is translated into English, we would hate that something got missed out where words are not properly interpreted.  So if you can just give the interpreters a chance by speaking a little bit slowly.  That way your whole message will come across adequately and there will be unlikely to be translation mistakes.  We will also then be able to make a better record of what you say so if I could urge you please.  You said that during this period there was a Twister Gang staying at Tembisa Hostel, they were trafficking with the IFP staying at which hostel?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: At Vusumosi Hostel.

MR LAX: You can carry on from there please?

INTERPRETER: Just for a point of correction, Chairperson, I'm not sure whether it was Twister Gang or Toaster Gang.

CHAIRPERSON: It's Toaster Gang.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you.

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: These people used to come to the community to harass it.  They used to come and fire shots, they'd get into people's houses and rob them of their T.V. sets and attack doctors and rob them of their monies, but also go to businessmen and rob them of their monies and take whatever they could take from those shops, raping school children and students were no longer able to go to school as a result of that.  That was that.

MR SHAKOANE: Now on realising that kind of a situation, what was the community's reaction to that?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: The community came together, sat down to discuss this, concerned about the fact that even though they reported these to whoever, these were not taken seriously so that we as a community ultimately formed a unit, the SDU's so as to defend ourselves against the Two Star Gang and the IFP.

MR SHAKOANE: Was the SDU formed with the approval of any political organisation or not?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: How was that done and which organisation was that?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: What I did before joining the SDUs I went to the Tembisa branch of the ANC office and I also went to the MK office in Johannesburg and informed them about the problem that we had pertaining to the Toaster Gang in the township and they gave me a permission to the effect that I too can be a member of the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: It was in 1992 in May.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've already testified that the community came together to consider the problem that were being presented by the Toaster Gang.  When did they come to that consideration?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: The community met at the time when the Toaster Gang were terrorising and killing the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what year was that?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: It think it was from 1992 to 1993.