Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe so.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain that?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Abraham Madibeng Phasha was killed because of politics because he took part in the killing of one of the ANC members, or one of the supporters of the ANC Youth League in Chief Mashabela's village.  That is where I was born.  We expected that the members of that organisation would become future leaders and help the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - do you mean members of the ANC Youth League, you expected them to become leaders in the future?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that why you killed the deceased?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is the reason why he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he stoned by this entire crowd?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: No, because they were so many people there, the only people who managed to stone him were those who were in the front.

CHAIRPERSON: But did the entire crowd support the attack on the deceased?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct, because at the time he was being stoned some of the people were chanting and singing slogans while others were busy stoning him.

CHAIRPERSON: And were the members of this crowd either supporters or members of the African National Congress Youth League?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: At the time of the incident I believe that they were supporters of the ANC Youth League.

ADV SANDI: Why did you believe that members of this crowd were members of the ANC Youth League?  Supporters of the ANC Youth League, rather.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: It is because when we started our meetings in preparation for the launching of the organisation all of them were in support of the launching of the organisation and there was no-one who was against the idea of launching the ANC Youth League, and there's no-one who showed any other allegiance to a certain organisation other than the ANC.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Chair, if I can just take this particular one further.
	What time was it that this crowd of people congregated?  What time of the day was it?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: It could have been between 8 and 9pm.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but how were you able to observe who constituted this crowd?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: From during the day while we were holding the meeting we were all together until the time we went to that place where the incident took place.  There's no-one who left.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.  I'm sorry about that Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  The crowd was chanting and singing, what kind of chants and what kind of songs were being sung?  Was it church hymns or what was it?  What kind of songs?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They were singing liberation songs.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the toyi-toyi is?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of these chants and the songs that were sung, have you ever heard them during a toyi-toyi?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now at this time when this incident happened, amongst the crowd were there members of the leadership of the ANC Youth League present?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they participate or support the action that was being taken?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that they took part, although some of them did not manage to take part due to the size of the crowd.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anybody who tried to stop the attack on the deceased?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: No, there's no-one who tried to stop the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard, re-examination?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair, a few questions.
	The first I beg your leave to ask it, because I should have asked it and I omitted to do it.  The applicant at paragraph C1 on page 15 of the bundle, puts Jahannes Phasha as a victim.  
	What happened to Johannes Phasha that made him a victim, why was he included?  If I may ask.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Maletswai Phasha became a victim because his house was attacked and ransacked when they went to look for him, and his property was also damaged.  That is at the time the youth were angry, looking for him at his place.

MR RICHARD: The next point if we go to paragraph C4 on the same page, and this flows from one of the questions in cross-examination, about whether there were other people who were similarly victims, as was the deceased, the question asks
"Any other information which may assist in identifying and locating the victims."
your answer there was:
"There were someone who was being a lost and dead."
Who is the person that was lost and dead?  There, I've marked it with an X.
"There were someone who was being a lost and dead."
Are you talking about Abraham, or are you talking about somebody else who was lost and dead?

CHAIRPERSON: Or are you talking about Moses?

MR RICHARD: Or Moses.  Do you remember what you meant?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I was actually referring to Moses as one of the victims.  He was the victim of those people who were alleged to be witches.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, the crowd of about 500, what would they have done if the chief had not co-operated with them and allowed the schools to be closed so that pupils could join in the search for Moses and in the beatings that were going on?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: May you please repeat that question.

MR RICHARD: The chief sent various letters which resulted in schools in the area closing, which enabled the plan, as you say that the scholars would be able to assist in attending the meetings and searching for Moses.  Now my question is, what would the crowd have done if the chief had not co-operated with them in the manner you described?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I would not say what the community would have done, because they came to the chief, they believed that they will be helped to get Moses.  They came to the chief to ask for help.

MR RICHARD: It arises from another question.  I am correct when I understand it this way, that Moses' body was found a day after Abraham had been killed.  In fact his body had not yet been found when Abraham was stoned, am I correct or have I misunderstood the sequence?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: When he was stoned it was not yet known about Moses' disappearance.   We only heard about his body after four months, and we were told that by the police who were involved in the investigation about Moses disappearance.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

ADV SANDI: If I could just ask one or two questions which I thought I would ask the applicant.
	Can you tell us very briefly what was the relationship between the chief and the elderly members of the community?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Are you referring to the councillors in the community?  I do not understand whether you're referring to the leaders of organisations like the ANC.  Can you please explain the question.

ADV SANDI: Now you didn't tell us anything about councillors, so I can't ask you anything about councillors in the community.  I'm talking about the chief in the village and parents in the village, how would you describe the relationship generally between the chief and what one could refer to as parents in the community?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The relationship between the parents and the chief related only to the instructions that were issued by the chief and they will carry out such instructions.  That is the only relationship that I think they had with the chief.

ADV SANDI: But you say the chief - would you say there was bad blood between the chief and elderly people in the community, or were they getting on well, without any friction?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that there was bad blood between the parents and the chief, but that did not have anything to do with the killing of Madibeng Phasha, that only related to the chiefs misappropriation of the community funds.  That is what I believe made the parents angry.