Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-07

WITNESS:   It was on the 11th November 1990 at about seven.  We were together with my brother.  We were going to another family where there had been a death of a member of the ANC.  This boy died while my brother was away, and then my brother said he was going to go and give the condolences to these people.  On our way we were stopped.  My brother didn't switch off the car.  He said he was scared of being stopped by cars.  He didn't switch off the car, but we stopped on the side of the road and some people came out.  When they came out they had guns, they had firearms.  My brother was looking at them through the mirror of the car, and then he pulled off.  And these people who had guns, when we moved off in our car they got back into their car and chased us until - and we thought the better thing was for us to go to the police station, where we would get assistance.  Indeed we rushed to the police station at Madadeni.  When we arrived there we got out.  The car was searched by these very same people who were chasing us.  My brother went to the station commander at that time, who was Mr Mbele.  He asked them, "Why are these people chasing us?"  Mr Mbele said, "Maybe it's rushing you for a ticket that you didn't pay at Mooi River."  I don't know what date was that for the fine ticket.  It seemed it was a speed ticket.  My brother said he paid for that ticket.  And then they searched our car.  They didn't find anything.  The very same guys who were chasing us they told the station commander that we started shooting at them, and my brother, "If we were shooting at you where is my gun, "where is the gun I used, and why are you not arresting me and find this gun on me?"  We left and my brother said he will come the following day to understand more, and we left and went away.  On our way we met another gentleman who is our relative, who is called Vincent.  We told him about this thing.  We went to his home at Kwezi.  We stated at Kwezi until at about 11.  From there we left.  We thought maybe we better go back home and check what's happening at home.  While we were on our way home, before we arrived, my brother said, "No, let us go back to where we come from, tell them that, "We were coming to you, but this is what happened to us"."  Indeed we called the sister, her name was Priscilla Mlambo, at section three.  We told them that we were formally coming to pass our condolences to them.  From there we went home.  When we arrived home we found that nothing had happened there.  There was nothing that was suspicious.  We were not even suspicious that anything could happen, because it was quiet by that time.  It was at about 11.  When we arrived home I said, "I am afraid of sleeping here at home.  Maybe I had better go and sleep to another place.  Maybe these people who were shooting at us will come back."  And indeed I parted with my brother, and my brother went to sleep at section six at his friend's place, Dumisani.  That was the end, because I only heard the following day what had happened.

MR DLAMINI: These people who were in the car, if you don't tell us their name today, are they people you identified from this car that was chasing you?

WITNESS:   Yes, I recognised one person when we arrived there.  Yes, I do know that person. At the time when you were chased by this car what time was it?   Around about what time if you can't remember exact time?   ---   It was around about quarter past seven, because we left at home at about seven.

MR DLAMINI: The announcement that was made on the radio in the morning, did you hear that?

WITNESS:   No, I didn't hear because I had not put the radio on.

MR DLAMINI: According to those who heard it, if you compare the times, was it the time you had not yet found him, or you already knew by then?

WITNESS:   No, we had not yet found him, we were still looking for him.

MR DLAMINI: Mama, how old was Professor at that time when he died?

WITNESS:   He was 28 years old.

MR DLAMINI: Could you repeat the age?

WITNESS:   He was 28 years old.

MR DLAMINI: What job was he doing?

WITNESS:   He was working for the unions.

MR DLAMINI: You said he was the leader of the ANC.

WITNESS:   Yes, but he was working.

MR DLAMINI: Those people who came to search at home, searching the car, do you know their names of them?  Even if you don't tell us those names do you know them?

WITNESS:   No, I didn't know them.

MR DLAMINI: Thabile, are they people you know, are they people you can identify?

WITNESS:   No, those were not the people we knew, but they were white policemen, but they said they came from forensic team.

MR DLAMINI: (Inaudible) ... Commissioners.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Sibankhulu, is it correct that your son was continuously harassed and detained by the police in the 1980s?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is the truth.

MR LYSTER: And is it correct that he was ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   Yes, it was the truth, he was once detained.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... the police for certain offences for which he was acquitted after a long trial?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LYSTER: And he held several positions in the community in Newcastle youth organisations and the trade unions and - he held several senior positions in the community in the Newcastle area, is that right?  (Pause)  Sorry, is it correct that he held senior positions in the community in Madadeni and Newcastle, where he lived?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: Just a little bit, Mama Katherine.  In your statement you spoke about petrol bottles that were found under the body of the deceased.  You also spoke about a bullet that had already been used which was found in the car.  Was it established from what gun did this bullet came from, and also how did these petrol bottles come to be here?

WITNESS:   The person who saw this was Thabile.  Thabile saw all those things, the petrol bottles.

UNKNOWN: Could I direct this question to Thabile?

WITNESS:   The bottles which were found were under the body of our brother.  A that time when they picked him up we found that there were petrol bottles that were under his body.

UNKNOWN: Another question was that this bullet had been used.  Was it followed up to establish from what gun it came from?

WITNESS:   The bullet you are talking about we were told by the police was with this forensic team, that they picked up during the time when they picked other pieces from the car, but then we didn't find out from what gun did it come from.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

DR MAGWAZA: Mama Sibankhulu, at that time you were speaking ahead you were saying that Professor was harassed by a certain organisation, and he was also harassed by the police.  I also hear that when he was in problems, being followed by people who were out for his life he ran towards the police station.  Was that police station not the same police station of the police that were harassing him?

WITNESS:   The police had arrested him, but they didn't harass him.  It was Inkatha that was harassing him.  In 1986 the police had arrested him, and this case went on up until 1987.

DR MAGWAZA: Meaning you had confidence to the police?

WITNESS:   Yes, we trusted them because they are responsible for law.  We would also hope that since he had gone to report there it was a place that he should have been protected from, but he didn't get any protection from them.

DR MAGWAZA: Another question I would like to ask is was there an inquest held after he died?