Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR VISSER: I am not sure that my learned friends are all that interested, from the point of view of their instructions, in the colour photographs.  I just thought that the Panel should have that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we should have a set at least.

MR VISSER: There is one more set available, but that is in the police docket.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I should imagine, I am just thinking aloud now, but Mr Visser has a set, it would seem and maybe he could share that with the other applicants, the Panel can have a set to share, and Mr Wills, a set, that would seem reasonable to me.  I am sure Mr SAMUEL, you don't need a set?

MR SAMUEL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could get ...

MS THABETHE: Three more sets?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Visser's got one.  I don't know if you want one?  Then two, one for the Panel and one for Mr Wills.

MS THABETHE: I will make the arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can get two more of those, thank you.  Yes, and then also if you can include, when they are making colour photographs, to include the colour photo of R2.  Thank you.   Alright, Ms Thabethe?  We will deal with that when we get it, Mr Visser.

MS THABETHE: If the Committee can bear with me, I am sorting out my papers.   Mr Chair, I would request that Dr Aiyer be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: We have done so.

MS THABETHE: You have done so?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Dr Aiyer, can you please state your qualifications for the Committee?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I have a Doctorate degree in medicine.

MS THABETHE: Is it all?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you study, Dr Aiyer?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: At St George's University School of Medicine.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Its Headquarters is in New York.

MS THABETHE: Can I proceed, Mr Chair, thank you.  How did it come about that you became involved with the exhumation of...

MR LAX: Sorry, before you ask that, how many years did you practice as a pathologist?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I am currently holding my, well, I am holding my current post for the past five years, so five years.

MR LAX: And did you practice pathology before that in any way?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Have you had any other specialist training in pathology?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I worked for the Department of Forensic Medicine prior to that, many years.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.   Can you please tell the Committee how you got involved in the exhumation?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I was requested by Dr S.R. Naidoo to perform the exhumation for him, because he was unable to do so.  That is basically my involvement.

MS THABETHE: On page 82(a) of Bundle 2, there is a report, was this report written by you?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Is that your signature at the end?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is so.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.   I just want to ask you a few questions with regard to this report.  At the grave site that you went to, you indicated that when the exhumation, after the exhumation had taken place, you saw, that is paragraph 3, a plastic bag with contents which were carefully lifted to the surface and briefly examined.  Did you examine this, the contents of the plastic bag?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It was a cursory examination, a sort of look/see examination.

MS THABETHE: Look/see?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It wasn't a detailed examination, no.

MS THABETHE: And can you tell the Committee what was in that plastic bag?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: According to my notes, I noted the following - the skull was covered with a white fabric, the upper torso was covered with a pinkish fabric, the right femur and the right tibia and fibula were in ...(indistinct) order, the left pubic bone was fractured as was the radius and ulna, there were numerous fractures of the ribs also noted.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Thabethe, Doctor, as you are sitting here now today, do you have an independent recollection of yourself, at the exhumation and at the grave site?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: A vague recollection, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  You have indicated that there was a whitish fabric covering the skull.  Do you know what this whitish fabric was?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I do not.

MS THABETHE: Did you examine it by any chance?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I did not, as I said earlier, I did not perform a thorough examination, it was a cursory examination so that I noted what was there, and the arrangement was that I exhume the body and have it transported to the mortuary for further examination.

MS THABETHE: Okay, maybe I should have asked you this at the beginning,  when Dr Naidoo requested you to go and stand for him at the exhumation, what were you supposed to do there?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, there is no hard and fast rules about exhumations.  Essentially the functions of a pathologist at an exhumation is to stand there and supervise.  Usually to obtain the necessary specimens particularly where poisoning is suspected.
	The normal, actual ...(indistinct) of the body is left to the police or the labourers performing the task.  Since Dr Naidoo and I have a special interest in sort of, exhumations, we tend to take it a bit further, where we personally get involved in actually stepping into the grave and facilitating the removal of the remains as best we can.
	That is basically what we do.

MS THABETHE: And then you go on in your report to say that at the stage when you were busy collecting the remains, the rain started to fall, is that correct?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is so, yes.

MS THABETHE: And then what happened after that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, basically we terminated any further examination.  Under normal circumstances, I would have had a closer look, to look for other bits of evidence that I may find, for instance we talk about something called ...(indistinct), where there might be more than one set of bones attached to that particular scene.
	In this particular case, I did not do so.  We gathered all that we had, we put it in a blue plastic body bag, I sealed the bag, because it was a sort of resealable bag, I sealed the bag, I marked it as I indicated here, "unknown from Charlotteville", I think.   Yes, the remains were placed in a blue plastic bag, sealed and assigned the label "unknown from Charlotteville cemetery", and I handed it to a police officer, named Andrew Arthurmolen who was from the Stanger mortuary, for transportation of that remain from the grave site, to the mortuary and then he was instructed to facilitate transport to the Gale Street mortuary, where Dr Naidoo would conduct the autopsy.

MS THABETHE: When these remains were actually handed over to Dr Naidoo, were you present?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I was not.

MS THABETHE: So would I be correct to say that your role in this matter, was at the exhumation, and nothing after that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct, yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Mr Visser, do you
have any questions?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  Doctor, on the evidence, I think you are going to be let off early today, I don't seem to have too may questions for you.
	According to your report, is it correct that the plot that was opened, was grave 343?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: And this happened on the 5th of May 1997?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is so, yes.

MR VISSER: Present were those that you stipulated there, which included a Mr Ode, is that the correct pronunciation?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Dr Ode.

MR VISSER: Ode?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes.

MR VISSER: What role did he play at the time?