Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

SIMON FARISANI: Thank you very much.  I must define myself as both a pastor and a freedom fighter, a lover of justice and democracy.  There is a sense in which the South African Government with their Venda political surrogates were right in persecuting me all these years.  There is a sense in which I deserve the persecution, because clearly I did not agree with their political agenda and their activities.
 Much has been blamed on communism and other forces for the position.  I've taken all my life in support of God's own people.  Nothing can be further from the truth. Things that inspired me to take the life direction that I've taken, are obvious to any normal South African, especially one of the formally oppressed.  As a family we were uprooted in 1951 from the fertile Songozi Tsapila area of Louis 
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Trichardt with no compensation.
 I was four years old, but I remember how we carried our property on our heads away from our orchards, our gardens, our fields and no compensation.
 1959, we were uprooted again and we suffered much loss in this process.   In 1961, we were uprooted again from Mbabata to Madodonge.  Another attempt was made in 1977, without success.  The four detentions or improvements have affected me as a person, affected my wife, my parents, my children, my sister, my relatives and my friends.  And in this process friendships have been broken, family ties have been shattered and my father died without enjoying the freedom that I am enjoying today.
 He died with hope but he never lived to realise that hope.  I've been imprisoned, detained four times.  13th March to June 4, 1977, in Pietermaritzburg, Howick and another place which I don't know till today.  I will be happy if those who interrogated me in Pietermaritzburg and Howick could show me that place, I don't want to die minus the knowledge of this place.
 I was arrested in October 1977 from the 25th of January 1978.  I moved around different police stations.  In November 1981 they took me to the police station until I came back in June 1982, they were not satisfied, they took me again.  On the 25th of November 1986 and I was released on the 30th of January 1987.
 I have written many poems of psalms from this book which is called Justice in my tears, trying to explain how was my arrests.  If I could find time, I could read those psalms. 
 The place where I stayed is Pietermaritzburg, Howick 
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and that place which I'm saying I don't know at the moment and Sabasa police station which is now the police which was there and in Louis Trichardt.
 And I was there, yesterday and I saw three cells in which I spent my days in and in Pietersburg.  And here at Mvembe, there in White area where people used to die there.  There where even Tsifiwa died there and Mataqe and Tsandama police station.
 And at Masisi police station with corrugated irons which is very hot and I was there and it was during summer and then my arrest have brought a great damage or danger.  Those dangers sent me to (indistinct) hospital and Chenzeni hospital.  The days which all in all could be 106.
 At Madimbo military base, I went there for medical treatment while things were bad.  The private Doctors like Mr Ramasowa and Victoria Hospital in Western Cape and Wynberg Medical Centre and the Millpark Hospital in Jo'burg and Mnosoto Centre for torture victims, where I spent six months being treated there and my family came there to support me there.
 At Addindale hospital in Pietermaritzburg when I went there while my teeth were removed and I spent two to three days with my teeth, brought them and they were not removed and I was unable to sleep that night.  I went to Parklane Clinic because due to torturing my glit was hard and there was a need of an operation by a specialist.  The Pietersburg Doctors tried, but in vain.  But those in Park Clinic tried it and it was successful.
 Some people are aware that there are times in which my voice was not well and people make prayers and I am happy and I thank God that my voice is now very good.
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 When I was arrested for the fourth time, Mr Ramarighera told me that that mouth is still speaking today.  And I troubled Ramarighera and company to also come and speak before you as they had the courage to declare as if they were God, that my voice would stop at a given time.
 Let us come to my torture.  I will walk with them from where it begins.  On the 13th of June 1977, I was taken in church at (indistinct) and those who arrested me is Mr (indistinct) and Mazina, a fat man and a certain man whom I don't know whether he was a colonel or a lieutenant colonel, but he was a White man from Kruger family and the late Bezuidenhoud who is Venda is called, Chilef.
 And his other friends, must be called and come and tell us who were co-workers and who were responsible and who were their friends.  Kruger and his friends while I was taken from Maungani by force they took me with another man whom I don't know, I think they must tell us who is that person and if he is still alive, they took me.  I slept there at Louis Trichardt, but that day they never tortured me.
 Because if I say they tortured me, I will be laying for the followers of the devil.  There where I was tortured in Pietermaritzburg, more specially in Howick, those people were very intelligent.  I was tortured by a man who was a supervisor, the supervisor was called Meza, and even today I cannot know his name.  And there was a captain, I could not know his name.
 There were big men with muscles, I never knew their name.  There was one Black person who was pretending as if he was a freedom fighter, but he was pretending.  I even saw him here in Sebasa, but he never told me his name.  I am asking this to the Commission that, I want to see those 
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people who tortured me in Howick and in Pietersburg.
 Those who interrogated me are the people who hurt my head and they called another Doctor who came and I think that Doctor was responsible for torturing me and I want to know the name of that Doctor.
 Now, regarding the torture that took place in Howick.  In short it is as follows:  I was taken from the cell in Pietermaritzburg and put on a van.  They tied my legs and hands, it was extremely cold.  These people were driving very fast from Pietermaritzburg.  When I arrived in Howick, my legs were very - I was accepted as follows.  Welcome dean, if you co-operate.  Amalgamation was one of the things that I was asked.
 They asked me about the boys who left for Botswana, they asked me about the struggle, about the Government and when I was told that I was speaking about that, that is where I was made from walk, from jump, from jumping to place.  I had to engage in press ups, it was very difficult.
 I was beaten heavily, they started (indistinct).  They took my hair, those people were really damaging, because they were very stout.
 They told me that if I was not to say the truth, my brain is going to split and they are going to say I had jumped.  They tortured me extremely.
 They had to make me carry the liberation stick and I was made to say Amandla, power to the Black people.  I had to sweep a big class room, using a big broom.  I was tired, my legs were tired and they put my legs right in my hands.
 If here were tables here, I would demonstrate.  There was a stick and I had to hang there whilst facing down.  A whole lot of questions were asked and there were a lot of 
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(indistinct).  I still have scars.  If they saw the scars, they bandaged it with newspapers so that the newspapers should just go deep down into my flesh, it was very difficult.
 They pulled me, they threw me out and I had to be lifted.  Sometimes when waking up in the morning, the Doctor was called just to wake me up.  On waking up he said to me - just before I could answer the very people who were torturing me, replied and said, no he is doing it deliberately.
 He is pretending to have died.  He seems to be unconscious.  The Doctor said, I thought the Doctor was going to help me, because he was Dr Satayo.  He said to me in Afrikaans, maybe they didn't know that I knew Afrikaans as well as I know Venda.  They said I am going to get rotten and die like an animal.  That is how I got tortured in Pietermaritzburg.
 I was not the only one, the other person who was next door who was being tortured was a young lady, who was just shouting and said I am dying and they said, we are now to deal with your private parts, the ones which you boast to your boyfriends, the terrorists.  That is some other time, you know I felt so powerless, that I didn't know what to do.
 The Meza came and they said I was (indistinct), I was a kaffir, I was a terrorist, subvasive, I was taken to the other place to bath.  They said the office is now getting that smell.  You know (indistinct) don't know this person I was brought to Zebunefe. 
 He said he came as a goose, he was just lean, indicating that he was not eating.  The old man gave me power, he said Amandla, Amandla.
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 And as a young man I said if the old man is saying like this, I said Amandla.  I was encouraged.  These people were thinking that they were killing, they were giving me stamina.
 When I was coming he was just walking.  And they said if you co-operate you are going to walk on a (indistinct).  By then he had already received an amount of torture.  Let me just conclude by saying after all those months, three months, after the Bishop had arrived from Germany, he tried to settle with the Government on the other side the churches were struggling, and I was released.
 After my stay at home at June, after I (indistinct), they came back in October.  If at all I had stopped fighting apartheid, it was difficult.  When I came back, I realised that people were still suffering, I realised that this is not one thing that you can throw at one, it is part of life.
 I had to go back with Mr Phosiwa.  In 1977, October to January they were not beating us.  Of course they gave abuse, they called us "bobbejane", "goggas".  From a small toilet in 17 in number and we addressed a council of 17 and they said we had arrested 17.
 They only gave us one toilet for 17 people, it was difficult.  They took us to Louis Trichardt and there were a lot of Boers.  They put us in a corrugated iron cell.  They took us to a small cell again and they brought very hot food and when you go to the toilet, you just sit there and other people just close their eyes.  And even old people like Pearogwana who is 65, could just go to the toilet in front of the other students.
 They took us to Pietersburg and they brought us back to Sebasa.  Let me just say when I came out of that, I phoned 
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Mr Chikagisa and asked him as to why I had been arrested without any charge.  Mr Chikagisa even came to my home and said Farisani, no, things were bad.  I don't even know, it was just a confusing situation.
 And I said all I did three days when the church is not operational, then came this police station bombing at Sebasa.  I heard that Tsifiwa had been arrested.  I think I was with Mr Korombi and my wife.
 On our way we learnt that Tsifiwa had been arrested the previous night.  When we arrived at Natal, it was on Saturday where I was going to address a graduation ceremony and Mahamba was there, a friend of ours, who is still another friend.  
 The Commission must help because now our friendship with Mahamba has just dwindled because of these police people, our precious friendship like gold had just dwindled.
 This means in the history of my life and it is the greatest loss to me and to my family.  We think it will be better if you were to call Mr Mahamba to come and explain as to what happened, because our friendship had just dwindled.
 That is when I was taken from home because I had prayed at Tsifiwa's house and I helped in this case.  When I arrived at home, within 15 minutes, these people had arrived.  I skip a lot of things and my wife was crying and my mother was crying, saying I can just throw myself in front of a car.
 Out of the seven people at home, I am the only one who was left and my mother was just crying saying are you taking my son?  The took me, Ramarighera, Managa, Nesemari and others, these are the people who are going to tell you.
 I don't want to monopolize the special branch names. 
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When we reached the old Government buildings, you know while they were looking at the buildings and said do you think you are going to make this Government fall, you don't listen.  If at all we had not arrested you, what were you going to preach at Tsifomoke's place.  They showed me a lot of guns.
 They said Nesemari was driving us to Masisi, the car was driving very fast.  When we arrived at the junction it was Mofole, it was flying, I was thrown at Masisi cell.  Mr Nesemari took - the battle was at night.  When I arrived there I had small change, Nesemari took it and he said torture this man.
 Torture Mr Farisani because the policemen had conducted themselves well.  I can still talk about these people like Mabusha and he said this is the photo that was taken when you were preaching at the stadium.  On the 23rd of November 1981 Ramarighera came with another lady, a very beautiful lady and they said, say whatever you know.
 And I said what is it that I know and he said whatever happened at Howick it is very minor, you are going to say a lot of things.  Your private parts are going to destroyed and we are going to please this lady.  They said they were going to come back on the 25th.
 On the 25th I was (indistinct) and every day there was - I think that house is still around.  I can show you all these small rooms and all these places and we can show you how it looked like.  On the 25th Mr Ramarighera came back.
 He was just asking me a lot of questions. You know they were eating nice meat with nice pudding, they were eating, but they also gave it to me.
 During the evening when they realised that they couldn't get what they were looking for, they said to me now VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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we are killing you.  We cannot tolerate any more.  These are the document, these are the papers, write a statement and say you have run away from the jail.  Write to the Bishop, your relatives and friends.
 We are not hiding this away from you, we are going to kill you and throw you in Mozambique.  We are going to say you went to Mozambique and the communists killed you.  I was frightened, people know Farisani is a brave man, they don't know him as a coward.
 There are times when I get frightened, I was afraid, I took the paper and pen.  I just don't know what happened, I just don't even know what happened.  I said okay take your pen and your papers.  I told them that I was not going to write and they said, okay, then we are going to shoot you and you are going to die from it.
 If you have not written we are going to torture you bit by bit and you are going to die slowly and suffering extremely.  I said, I am not writing.  So they left.  That was on the 25th of November.
 Between 25th of November and the 3rd of January they said Mr Tsakalani who they bought a lot of fish, they said why don't you co-operate, why can't we work together?  Are you a church member?   His church must come and confess.
 I don't know what you are doing about that.  There are lots of christians including pastors who have slaughtered the flock in co-operation with the security police, who have betrayed the flock and who sit and pretend today as if nothing has happened.
 We were there saying that the old people should repent because they are engaging in illicit bear and that the youth who were babies to other people, there is a lot of murder 
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which was committed by the church and the priests.  We will give you the names if you are still alive.
 I defeated Mr Tsakalani and he went to them I went to them and I tried, but I failed.  On the 4th of January Mr Ramarighera came back again.
 He was very cross.  Ramarighera, Managa, Nesemari and one boy from Ramoda.  He was just more or less like these other people.  I can grade them this way, Ramarighera the Republic of Venda, he is the de Kock, and Managa is the Deputy de Kock of this place.  Nesemari is the assistant de Kock of this area and Ramoda in my case, I can't grade him.
 It could just be told he was just a member of the (indistinct).  He just clapped me as if he was playing with my wife, it was difficult.  He couldn't manage.  On that day I saw a lot of things.  I was taken to a very tiny room.
 I was made to do press ups, to stand on my head, how can I stand on my top, you know I was very stout?  They took me and made me stand on my head and then they kicked me.  They boxed me as I was just like that.  You know those people were very powerful.
 Imagine picking somebody like me, you know, they threw me up, throwing me down again on the cement, on concrete cement.  That is what I am saying, you know, they threw me and my legs straight.  Ramarighera was just dancing up and down and saying I want to destroy your family.
 And when he came back he threw his light, it was just doing harassing and beating me like that.  Boxing, beating and karate, I think it was karate and judo which was just mixed, I just don't even know what it was.
 Everything, just to cut a short story short, late evening I couldn't have my baths, I was just breathing 
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through my ears.   You know there are scars here on my knees, the head was very swollen.  I was given a cloth to take blood from the floor.  I was made to use the cloth in wiping the blood from the face and even the body.
 They threw me on the van, having tied me.  Ramarighera said I am saying this because he said it in English.  If you are alive by tomorrow morning, we do not know what we are doing.  The van left for Masisi.  Well I accepted that.
 I said it is better for me to enjoy the Farisani part of me, the few hours that were left so that by tomorrow, the following day I will be late Farisani.
 Ramoda had been thrown, I think it was him although I couldn't see him clearly because it was dark.  When we arrived at Sebasa, they were communicating using their own devices.  I think the senior was saying okay, we will see the following day.
 On the 5th in the morning, Nesemari came again.  He was in the company of somebody.  He is going to account on who that person was.  It was a new White person, a white car.  It appeared as it I was a President who was swollen, he drove me to the opposite (indistinct), Manage was there, waiting for me.
 He said to me - into this room and goes out alive unless he says just what we want.  Well, I realised that I had arrived at Park Station, like Park Station.  When I arrived there they said take off your clothes, they were just helping me, doing it, forcefully.  They put a bag on me, they poured some glue-like things, you know they were just sticky.
 In my imagination when they were shocking, I couldn't feel the electricity in substance, properly.  Well they tied
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 those electrical devices on my ears, they poured water, some water just on the floor.  My whole body was just feeling pain.  I fell in the water and I was just falling down, rising and taking off the bag, asking me a lot of questions.
 Let me come with this issue.  Ramarighera, Manage, Nesemari, the late Magathu, Mazela who is still alive and some boys who are teenager boys who were being trained to be special branches.  They were once sent to my home and when they arrived, they said the ANC sent us to indicate where they were going to bomb.
 And I indicated that they were just sent.  Now I meet them.  They are saying come and laugh.  They were laughing at me.  During the day they ate, they were eating while I was just sitting, squatting there.
 (tape starts) White people who were coming from Pretoria.  The experts in electric shocks were just laughing in English.  During the day when they had eaten, they continued with their jobs.
 The electric devices were taken from the head to the toes and the thighs and even in my private parts.  My intestines were jumping.  As it was happening, Ramarighera started a song, Hallelujah.  Call on your god, he'll come and help you.  I am not laying about Ramarighera.  Why should I lie about him, he knows very well that is true.
 Colonel Kruger came.  He is somebody who is very proud.  He looks at me whilst  I was right in water, with blood and he said to me dean, I expected to see you in this condition in my life.
 It was difficult, it was difficult.  Since then they asked me as to who bought the cars for me, my Peugeot was 
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metallic green, why Tsifiwa also have the metallic green car, the three or four.  I had to account on who bought the car for us.  That was difficult.
 When I said to them I don't know anything.  I said if Tsifiwa was still, if he was there, Tsifiwa died.  Do you also want to be like Tsifiwa, it was difficult.
 I didn't have any problem then, I was just waiting for any fist that could hit on me so that I should die.  And as I was praying, I was pleading to God to die, that was difficult.  I was interrogated and by then I was not hand cuffed.  They interrogated me.
 They said I was not co-operating, I was beaten again.  It was deep harassment.  I was just beaten.  This head felt a lot of pain, I don't know why I am not mad.   Blood was flowing, my mouth, I can't see clearly, I couldn't see then, because my eyes were swollen.
 They again said I wasn't co-operating, I was still laying there.  Ramarighera said, just boil water in your kettle, we want to pour this water in his anus.  The very same Ramarighera.
 Whilst I was laying there, my problem was that just to pour water in my anus, boiling water in my anus.  It didn't mean that I could die there and then, I was, such a case never happened to me.  I know such a place is very delicate.
 I said, well, I am going to write a statement, then they released me, the water was boiling.  Some people might laugh and say Farisani was a coward on the day Mr Ramarighera will do that to you and boil water for you, now I understand what it means.  Just thank God that now we can say, when it happened, we couldn't even say.
 They said where was this car which bombed, where were 
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these other cars.  They were writing everything in the paper.  Tell us about this and that and that.  Well, I don't like especially when one is a preacher and a dean and pastor of a church, I feel that I was going to lie, I had to lie, I said yes, there were two cars.  The other one was under the tree the other one was next to the book shop.  
 They asked me about the number plate, I just said it was just a TJ, the registration number was TJ.  It was just a TJ, you know, when the attack took place, Mr Neffeld took me to the station and that other one.
 I had taken a train, I heard about this when I was in Jo'burg.  When I boarded the train Mr Ramarighera was there, he greeted us together with Manage but they are accusing me and saying I was there, although they saw me going to a train and they know very well that there used to be people who accompanied me, just to spy.
 They asked me as to what they had used.  I just mentioned all these AK47, whatever came to my head.   I said no, they have hidden those firearms and they realised that I was laying.  They just wanted - before you could just extract this communism in your head, we are not going to leave you.
 So they were competing.  You were thinking of this boiling water.  I just said in short, well on the 5th, evening of the 5th I was carried by Nesemari, taken by Nesemari, they bought half a white bread and milk, I just don't remember whether it was half a pint or a full pint, I was thrown into a cell.  They gave me papers and a pen to write.
 How could I have written because I couldn't even be able to do that.  They told me to write in the cell.  On the VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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6th when I was sleeping, I said to God, please God I must die tomorrow, please.  I was happy.  I said can I lie as a preacher?  No.  Let me just die tomorrow.
 I felt that I was going to die the following day and I said yes, I will die before I could even write a statement -praise the Lord.
 On waking, normally when I dream I don't just dream useless things.  I realised that I was still alive in the morning, I cursed God, but I didn't write the statement on the 6th.
 On the 7th Ramoswana (indistinct).  When he came there was a small boy, he said go out.  He knelt and said to me Farisani, I know that you didn't bomb the police station, we know that we were not there, including Mr Ramoswana.
 He then said all our preachers had died, all our good preachers had died.   Sometimes they pretended to enjoy, sometimes it was hell for them.  The observation I may be wrong, Mr Rabaza, a certain commission, was the one who really struggled.  He used to mix banana and papaw for me and knelt down and gave to me on a spoon.
 They took me to Chirizene.  Mr Rabaza still assisting.  They know me at Chirizene's Doctors.  They were treating me whilst I was handcuffed.  The Doctor said no, there was a big struggle until they released me so that I should go to the X-Ray.  I was only helped because Mpoganani wanted the X-Ray.
 He saw me, there was news that leaked.  (Indistinct) saw me and then they arrested him as he was following the van, I was just - my knees were flashed during the day so that whosoever saw me, should know that if Farisani was to help such kind of activities, who are you?
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 The Doctors fought and then I was going there quite often on and off and then I went to Matata where I collapsed, at Chandama I collapsed.  Some prisoners were helping me, it was very difficult.  I had to come back.  I slept at Chirizene hospital.
 After some time the other Bishop was allowed to come and see me together with my wife and there is some people who saw me around March or April.
 They brought my children.  When they brought my children, there were two, they (indistinct) a bell and I had received a photo from home.  They look at the photo and said oh, there is daddy and the mother said, yes, this is daddy, sitting here.
 I had lost weight from 165, they said no, it is not daddy, it was painful.  Damari was only 3 months old.  I even forgot the face of Namorera, I couldn't even know Namorera was.  But then this wife of mine struggled with the  Attorney General, Amnesty International was contacted.
 He used to smuggle letters and then she used to deliver all over the place until the time when the Attorney General arrived.  I had already been given a small letter that I was a State witness.
 You see what is happening.  These people are trying to make me to be a State witness after I had been struggling a long time for freedom.  They are just killing my name.  I said no ways, I cannot do that.   I cannot be a State witness.
 Before the Attorney General came, Kruger came first.  Kruger was a Magistrate.  There was a Kruger in the special branch.  Kruger and Kruger.  Can you see what is happening?
 When he arrived, the Magistrate said to me we have come VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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here to collect a statement of a State witness, and I said a statement for what?  And they said about the bombing at Sebasa and I said my statement on the 23rd of November, do you have it, I said that is the right one.
 The one I wrote without any beating.  The one you have now is as a result of the scars that I have all over my body and I said what I am asking is that you charge the people who beat me.
 And he said me I am not here for that, I will have to come again, he left and never came back and these people really fought and Mr Fesi arrived.
 When I showed him the wounds and the scars, when the police were on guard and they said if at all I was tortured like this, I will lie.  And I asked for fresh papers, new papers, so that I shall write a statement.
 If you say this is a statement, I am going to deny this even in court, I am telling you now.  That is when papers came to me, I had to write it in a relaxed spirit, atmosphere.
 Whilst I was there, that is where my friend Mr Amahaba came.  We were the same one, because they say if you are all terrorists, you are not put in the same one.  You know, that is where they were trying to confuse us so that we shall engage in conflict, because they say we all have these people, you must be elected because somebody they bring their friends so that we shall just say anything that will lead into confusion.
 There are some policemen who were very good to us so that I shall be released.  On the 1st of June I was released and I was sent to Mr Kruger who said we are going to give you treatment on your scars and your wounds. 
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 I think they said (indistinct) used this to cure the cattle, they used it for - what about a human being, because if at all we took that medicine, so that it should be history, you know, if we look for it, we can get it, it used to be to cure cattle.
 When I left there I had to go back in 1986.  In 1986, during the night Muntso was there.  We knew that it was Muntso later in the morning, he was clad as a priest or a reverend.  You know we could just look via the curtain, he had  a Bible, something like a Bible.
 We knew that there were a lot of hit squads around.  We had told ourselves not to open the door in the evening.  They knocked, we couldn't even open, they broke open in the church and they entered.  They woke all the old people and the children and when they came to us, we had locked.
 It was a nice time.  They struggled a lot, they took all the keys.  They tried to take all the keys, mean while we were phoning.  You know we extended our telephone to the bedroom without their knowledge.
 They only knew that it was an office telephone number.  By the way we had been given wisdom by God, we had to take our telephone there.  We were phoning Germany, Johannesburg, Beth Naude, Maqwena, an old Doctor Zwamolde Tawane.
 Whilst we were busy all those Doctors appeared.  They thought they were in the special branch White people.  When Ramarighera said that is when they started saying, identifying themselves as police.  They said Farisani is here and I said, I am thankful that you are here.
 Other people invited other guests and it was singing throughout and some people were chased away and they said open, open, we don't want to arrest you.
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 And I said go and tell Mr Mpapo and Botha, those are the people I can open for.  They kept on saying open, open.  I said go and make Tsifiwa Mohofe come back, rise from the dead, not going to open.
 We by then were now down, no longer in bed.  I am going to talk about somebody who was good in phoning.  The whole night it continued like that.  In the morning I took my gun, personal gun.  I phoned Beth Naude and told him that I was going to commit myself to the police in the early morning.
 They took me, my mother was crying, other people were crying too.  They took me to the car, there were about 11 cars there.
 Some people were on top of the trees, some people held the flowers, the flowers of the church.  There were a lot of rifles and guns pointing at us and we went to the car to get Ramarighera and Nesemari and other people are going to say this.
 As we were passing were praying, Natawo and others.  They were singing and praying.  As we were driving through or passed, Mr Ramarighera said (indistinct).  And I was no longer afraid, they said do anything they liked.
 And they said where are those armourment that you were hiding and they said, those ones that you have hidden you are going to undig.  They took me to Sebasa, I denied eating, I said I am no longer eating prison food, I am tired.  I am only going to eat food from home.
 I never ate that Saturday and Sunday.  Early in the morning they went to my wife, they said he is not eating food and I said that I am no longer eating prison food, I would die without eating prison food.  From that food from home were coming every day.
VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
22 S FARISANI
 I was interrogated every day.  There where I was tortured.  Nesemari came there, boasting there and I was interrogated, more especially I was interrogated because the first thing which was said was the letter which was written by Mr J.A.M. Silimela and Mr Maqwaba, I don't hate them, they must tell the truth.
 And the relatives of the people who are sitting here, they must tell the truth.  This Mr Silimela, Maqwaba, Scwalemo of (indistinct) and H. Nemsewati who wrote a letter in which he was regretting for what he has done.
 And Genetandigege, who also wrote a letter saying that we are being used to persecute the pastors or reverends.
 R.M. Mateba, not Professor but a regional Doctor who sent a letter who led us into all the problems, because which said into saying that we are terrorists.
 Others were let me check here, I've forgotten it is long, I think I must remind myself.  I don't want to remember them because I want them to come here before they are subpoenaed.  I want them to come and tell what was happening.
 Okay, another person who was present who did not sign the letter is Mr Mogahone Samuel, but he also told me that what was happening, he is the one who can give the Commission about all these meetings, because there is not that kind of person.  
 He was the kind of person who can make you to eat, because the perpetrators like Mr Ramarighera and those people, they betrayed us, who wrote letters so that you can be persecuted and they are victims.  And those whose relatives were victims and we want those information to come before the Commission so that we can hear the truth.
VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
23 S FARISANI
 I think my brother-in-law Mr Samuel Matiga could also verify some of this information because I went to him at Tsandama while he was Magistrate.
 That statement was very interesting.  What I wrote although I was tortured, I tried to write something which could not lead into betraying anybody.  When that statement came back, I found that there was a paragraph talking about Tsifiwa.  That day, I said no, it may go here and go back if it want to, I never wrote about Tsifiwa.
 They said oh, maybe it is a typing error of including Tsifiwa and then they erased that paragraph.  When we arrived there Mr Mtsigi was having an interpreter and I told him who must I give this statement to and they said, I told them write all this scars which I have on my body, he wrote.
 And this statement is the result of these wounds and if Mr Mtsigi is still alive, he can bear witness to this.  By 1986, 1987 I was interrogated and there was no physical torture.
 People who interrogated was Girson Ramaburana.  He used to visit me while I was in prison, while I was on a hunger strike.  Even Mr Tsakakiza used to come and I was interrogated by them.  There came six White men int here to watch me, sometimes I was taken to President Mpepo in his office.
 Mr Nmsivazhi was there, he is the witness.  All these people must be given time to come and to give the information to the Commission because if they are, if they do not do that, it means that we are just beating up the bushes, we are hearing the grievances of the victims in stead of the perpetrators.
 There is something which I think I must look at this, 
VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
24 S FARISANI
which I think we must see this thing, this thing could help us in this work which we are in.
 These people are still in police services, apart from those who are dead.  They are still in power.  They are police, they carry guns, now as I am talking to you.
 And these witnesses who have spoken here, have no bodyguards.  And these people are still armed.  What are you going to intervene that they don't use their official guns to wipe out those who are testifying here today?
 I would propose that their guns be taken away until  further notice.  These people in the police force are sometimes, last year I got life threatening calls and I was provided with some security and some of the security people here were answering Ramarighera and Managa, looking after my safety, can you imagine that.
 We must be mad.  So it maybe I survived their attacks then and I'll die under my own Government because Ramarighera and Manage is still in charge of the people, if I need protection, who must provide that protection?
 Because I don't have time, there are church leaders and I have been a member of Zema South African International Ministers denomination, (indistinct).  We know the Government try to infiltrate us and how they - what they did.
 Some of the ministries created here, have been created by the system to use the word of God to cover up for the evil which they are doing.  I call again that the church must be given an opportunity to confess and if you need information, some of it we have it.
 I have got pastors, Black and White, who knows pastors who used to hold meetings which were aimed for killing us 
VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
25 S FARISANI
and where these meetings took place.  In the name of the church, by men of the cloth and women of the cloth.