Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When the interrogation took place comrade Sam and comrade Tamee were not present.  We were the interrogators, yes they arrived a little later, we brief them and they came in and when they got in they just kicked them but the better part of the interrogation was conducted by ourselves.

MR AMEEN: Now the interrogation is over, the assaults are over, you've received your order to kill these youths and you are now preparing to execute your order.  Your comrade Hlasa, the first applicant, testified yesterday that all six youths were taken, and you were present when this happened, that all six youths were taken to comrade Glen's house in Shawella.  You have given a different version, that you took them directly to the spot in Shawella where they were killed.  How do you explain that difference, both of you were part of the same squad carrying out the order to kill, we have one version from Mr Hlasa and we have another version from you.  Which is the correct version?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When I said we went straight to the spot where we shot these comrades and on the other hand comrade Hlasa saying they went to comrade's house, it takes me back to what I said earlier on that we are relating an incident that took place twelve years ago, I remember taking them straight to the spot where we shot them and comrade Hlasa recalled having gone to comrade Glen's house but I remember going straight to the spot, but there is a possibility that we went to comrade Glen's house but I do not remember it clearly, it's human to forget.  This happened twelve years back.

MR AMEEN: Mr Mphoreng it's a very simple and straightforward question, an answer with a yes or a no.  Did you or did you not go to comrade Glen's house with the youths that were with you.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not go to comrade Glen's house.

MR AMEEN: Are you then saying that comrade Hlasa is lying?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I am not saying he is lying, I said there is such a possibility that I forgot that little detail, I do not remember it well.

MR AMEEN: He also said that the reason for going there was to caucus on how to carry out the order because comrade Glen was a senior member of an AZAPO affiliated union.  Yet you say that you had already received orders on how to do the killing from comrade Sam and comrade Tamee.  Can you explain that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When we left Orlando West an order had already been taken out that we were going to Shawella, but the exact spot where they were supposed to be killed was not clear and I was just following the order at that time.

MR AMEEN: My clients, the two survivors, will say that they were taken, that all six youths, the two of them and the four deceased were taken to a house in Shawella, they did not know whose house it was but they were taken to a house in Shawella and from there they were taken to an open veld near a beer hall where they were shot.  What do you say to that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not dispute that it happened, but I do not recall it.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng there was also testimony by you co-applicant, Mr Hlasa, yesterday that when the order was issued it was said that they have already been hurt, something to that effect, and now they must be killed.  Do you recall that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I recall that, I recall that they were injured.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you more or less just formulate what was said about them having been hurt?  Can you more or less remember the words that were said that they have already been injured or hurt?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember that they were injured because of the interrogation, I saw them that they were injured and I also took part in the interrogation.

ADV BOSMAN: No but what I'm referring to is that Mr Hlasa said somebody, it may have been the two leaders, had said:  they have now been injured so now they must be killed.  Do you recall that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: What I remember is that these people were killed because of an order issued out by comrade Tamee and comrade Sam, they were not killed because they were injured already, we were just implementing an order issued out by our senior members.

MR MALAN: You are saying you don't remember having ever heard any words on the line:  they have been injured now, badly injured, they must now be killed.  You don't remember such words?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember those words, I remember the order being issued out.

MR AMEEN: You also testified yesterday that the youths who were being assaulted did not scream when they were assaulted, that they just took the assault passively.  You didn't use the word passively, but they just took the assault without screaming.  Do you still stand by what you said?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I still stand by what I said.  I pointed him with a gun, I said once you scream I'm going to shoot at you.  I did not want him to scream so that the neighbours could hear what was happening.

MR AMEEN: The survivors will testify that there was loud music being played on the radio and that this sound of the loud music stifled their screams or covered up their screams, that they were in agony, that they were in pain, that they did respond by screaming and trying to protect themselves.  What do you say to that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There is that possibility that the music was playing high.

MR AMEEN: Mr Mphoreng, let's not dice with each other, let's not play with each other.  This is a serious matter, you come up with possibilities each time.  Tell us yes or no.  Was the music playing loudly, were these youths screaming when they were being assaulted?  The more - can I just encourage you - the more honest your answer, the more disclosure you make, the more clear your answers, the better your chances of getting amnesty.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I agree the music played high.

ADV SIGODI: How badly was this house burnt?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (no interpretation).

ADV SIGODI: Was it burnt by means of a petrol bomb?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, we found petrol bombs.

ADV SIGODI: And was it, did it come in through the roof of the roof of the window, through the roof or through the window, the petrol bomb?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The windows were shuttered, it means therefore that the petrol bombs went through the windows.

ADV SIGODI: And was it electrified this house?  Did it have electricity?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember well, but I believe there was electricity.  Let me put it this way, there was electricity.

ADV SIGODI: Are you sure?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not have full evidence as to whether there was electricity in the house, I'm not sure.

ADV SIGODI: Where Jeff stayed or the area, was it electrified then or was it not electrified?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There is electricity in Mpumalong.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it there then, was there electricity in Mpumalong then?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes there was electricity then.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know if the petrol bomb destroyed the electricity?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember that point Madam.

ADV SIGODI: And this radio that was playing, do you still remember it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I mentioned earlier on that there was music, now it takes us back to the point that Jeff's house was electrified.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Could you just on the question - you were asked how badly was the house damaged by the petrol bomb and your response was petrol bombs, you referred to more.  How many petrol bombs were used in this attack?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not know how many petrol bombs were used.

MR MALAN: Do you know whether it's more than one?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I think it was more than one, but I do not know how many there were.

MR MALAN: Did you see any remains of a petrol bomb, how did you know it was a petrol bomb?