Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The decision was taken to attack them so that they do not repeat what they had done.  It was also decided that the people or the family that had been hosting them, should also be attacked, particularly their son so that they do not in future, fetch people from other areas to come and attack us in our area.

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting, I think you are losing me.  I heard you say that on questioning they said that they came to look for the hand of Martin.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And that you specifically asked them, had they found the hand, what would they have done and they said they would take it home?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: So where did you learn that they came to attack?  I didn't hear you say anything that they told you that they came to attack.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We deduced this from the questions that we asked them as well as the fact that they were armed.  Another factor that influenced me to think so is because Martin had been buried for a very long time, such that there was not really any expectation from them to find a hand ... (tape ends) ... it was early in December.

MR MALAN: If this happened still in December, why would they be looking for a hand?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The amount of time that had lapsed between then, was long.

MR MALAN: Were you armed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: What arms did you find on them, what weapons did you find on this group?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Firearms, three firearms.

MR MALAN: When you went to take them out of Amos' house, did they not show their arms, did they not try to defend themselves?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, they did not attempt to do so because when we arrived there, we surrounded the entire house, it was not easy for them, it would not have been easy for them to do so.

MR MALAN: When they first approached you to your house, from where the women ran away and your an away, they didn't show their arms then, they didn't show their firearms then?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, they were asking me questions, they were not very close to me because they were standing at Amos' house and I was at my home.

MR MALAN: But if they really wanted to attack you, why would they not have taken out their firearms there and attacked you there at your house when you were alone with only the women?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I do not know.  Maybe they did not know just who was present in my home.

CHAIRPERSON: But hasn't it been your evidence that as they were approaching towards your home and the women in your house, fled when seeing these people approaching from a distance, people in the neighbourhood then came and these people were stopped from getting into your house because of a large number of neighbours who came in towards your house, when they saw these people coming towards you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I did say so.

MR MALAN: How far is Amos' house from Muandla's house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is not very far.  If you shout, if you call out to somebody there, they would be able to hear you if you are shouting.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You took a decision and then these people were sjamboked, how many strokes did they get?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: 300 strokes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: 300 for males or for both genders?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The males were lashed 300 strokes, the females were given only 50 lashes, expect for Dudu who was lashed for 200 strokes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Dudu was present at the time that these people were punished?

CHAIRPERSON: That is not his evidence, shouldn't you put a question which would not be leading, or not even leading, confusing him, because that has not been his evidence.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Dudu present when you administered the punishment of 300 strokes initially on the approximate seven persons that you took up to the hills in the place that you called "The People's Court"?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Initially when the house was surrounded and these people were taken away, she was not there, but she was later present.  That is after some people went back and found her there at the house.

CHAIRPERSON: That is quite apparent from the contents of paragraph 14 of your affidavit, is that not so, that you found Dudu later on, hiding under the bed after the other persons had been punished?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  So, you told us that Dudu was sjamboked 200 strokes.  What happened after that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Dudu was the last person to be sjamboked and she was told to pack her stuff and leave the area, never to return.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was giving such instructions, can you be more specific?  Was it yourself or was this Nhlanhleni Makhaya?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I am the person who said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what happened thereafter?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: She left thereafter.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Proceed, after she left, what happened?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The people that she had been with, had left Amos' house.  A car approached and there were comrades in this car.

MR MOLOHLANYE: The comrades were from Amadiqwe, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that leading?  Why should you lead him, that is not so innocuous.  Where were these comrades from?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They were from Amadiqwe.  There may have been some who were not from the Amadiqwe area itself, but from a neighbouring area.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know them?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I did know some and some I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that they were from Amadiqwe?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I knew, the people that I knew, I knew them from Amadiqwe.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were they?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is not easy for me to remember just how many there were, but there were many of them, they were travelling in a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What did they do on arrival?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They enquired just what decisions had been made because when they arrived, the people who had been sjamboked were no longer there.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they know that a decision had been made at all?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When they arrived, people were dispersing, returning to their homes.  They met us along the way, that is when they asked us just what had been going on, what decisions had been taken from that rumour that they heard that there were people who had come to the area to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they know that people had come to the area to attack?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I do not know who had contacted them.  I was not even expecting them, I just saw them arriving there.

CHAIRPERSON: Around what time was it when they arrived there?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is not easy to remember, but they arrived after everything had taken place, they were the last to arrive.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you approximate, I know it is difficult for you to do so, but is it possible for you to approximate as to how long it took you to get the persons from Cele's house, march them up to the hills where you usually held your "People's Court", administer the lashes, go down to look for Dudu, find her, administer some lashes on her and tell her to leave, how long did that take?  Do you think it could have taken a few minutes or it took some few hours?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It must have been hours.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is Amadiqwe from your place which is Manyaseni?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is not that far.    If I can estimate, I will say from where we are now, it is from here to Durban station.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   When they arrived, what decision did you take with these comrades from Amadiqwe?