Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson after this incident I realised that our soldiers, the freedom fighters, the leaders of the AWB, the Volksfront and the CP we were misused by the AWB, Volksfront and CP because they never filled their promises for a Volkstaat as they promised.  I made provision in all the years that I've been working and in ten years time I would have been able to retire and I could have spent the rest of my life in peace with my wife, children and grandchildren.
	I had to sacrifice all of that and also the money and we went to the Volkstaat where they promised us we would live in peace.  Since my arrest I lost everything.  I got out on bail, I had problems finding work because you can't get work when you come from prison, the people think you're horrible.  After my sentence I sold the rest of my property in order to live and I also had a responsibility towards my family.  I lost two wonderful parents, they couldn't really take what was happening anymore.  
	After I received my sentence I couldn't even go to my own father's funeral because they thought I was too bad and I wasn't allowed to show respect to my father and my dear mother who was not too well, and these things really tore her apart, I could not fulfil my obligations toward her.  And now I must work until the day I can no longer, if I find work that is.

MS VAN DER WALT: What are you saying, are you saying you did not gain any benefit out of these events, but whilst you were there at the camp and you were aware of what was happening, did you as you said before, reconcile yourself with what was happening then and did you believe that you were doing it on behalf of the AWB or what were you thinking?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I think we had a completely different picture of how things might turn out.  We believed in our leaders, if a man is standing on stage and he's a leader, obviously he knows better than you do.  Me myself I would never pull my children into such a thing, I would never say to them something unless I know it's good for them.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you are saying that you were doing it on behalf of the AWB and it's intentions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I believed that what I was doing was the right thing.  The leaders of the AWB, Volksfront and the Freedom Front and the CP, I believed all of them.  I listened to all the people shouting at the meetings, shouting enough is enough, it's time for war.  I mean how do you otherwise become involved in a thing like this, you have to believe in it.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Mr Fourie you knew that the possibility existed that people might lose their lives?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson when these things happened, I foresaw that there would be loss of life.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew that this would happen by means of explosives?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: To my regret, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: There is just one other aspect, I by accident omitted this.  On page 129, paragraph 13 you mentioned several Generals - it's on page 129 Chairperson, paragraph 13 and it continues to page 130.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph?

MS VAN DER WALT: Paragraph 13, it's right at the bottom.  You mentioned that at that meeting the following people were present.  This is now the meeting in February 1994 where there was an open meeting as well as a closed meeting and you made mention of the following Generals who were present there when Eugene Terreblanche was there as well.  Do you confirm that those Generals were in fact there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just one last aspect, are you still a member of the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson, at the moment I have nothing to do with politics, I am not interested in politics because I feel people use you as pawns to gain benefit from you and then you are thrown away.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you feel that you were used?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I feel that I was used and also the other people also believed that they were used.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Fourie I put it to you for the applicants that I'm representing that it was never conveyed to them and specifically Du Plessis that at the game farm that they were never told to forget about the Volkstaat.  Do you have any comment?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson, I wasn't talking about a Volkstaat idea that was discarded.

MR PRINSLOO: Did I misunderstand you when you said that they must forget about a Volkstaat.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No the impression I got was that from the other side we would not be given a Volkstaat and we must forget that we would get one because they won't give us one.

MR PRINSLOO: I understand what you mean.  Mr Fourie furthermore, at the game farm while you were there, were you aware of the fact that other Generals, except for Prinsloo, were there, General Cruywagen, General Ackerman, do you know about them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No that could have happened when I was doing patrols but there was a time when I did see Cruywagen one morning there.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie I'm going to question you in English, perhaps you would like to put the earphones on.  Mr Fourie, whilst giving evidence, and in particular towards the end when you spoke about your parents, you became tearful and emotional did you not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Have you ever become tearful and emotional about the people that were killed in this bombing campaign?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At one point when you're in a war situation, unfortunately it is the case that people are going to die, it's what we say in the army when we acted and today I do not feel about mentioning this because it was different at that time, but at that time they called it casualties of war ... (inaudible - end of tape).

MR LANDMAN: ... (inaudible - beginning of tape) from Natal that bombs had been planted by the Boere Crisis Action.  Is that right?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He said that there were certain things going on by using the BKA Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Now can you give any reason why Mr or General Prinsloo wouldn't have told you that the bomb in Bree Street was planted by the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson I do not know what his idea was, I don't know why he didn't tell me or why he didn't inform us with regards to that, I really cannot tell you I cannot speak for him.

MR LANDMAN: In your dealings with General Prinsloo I take it you noticed that he was proud to be a member of the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Who was proud to be a member?

MR LANDMAN: General Prinsloo.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes he was proud to be a member, is that what you're asking me?  That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And Mr Fourie when the pipe bombs were handed out did General Prinsloo indicate that he was happy that members of the AWB were going out on these operations?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It carried his approval, I wouldn't say he was happy, we weren't happy we didn't chat if that's what you're asking.

MR LANDMAN: Did he openly associate himself with the fact that members of the AWB were going to go out and plant pipe bombs in various areas?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is so Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But when it came to the Bree Street bomb, he never publicly, even amongst yourselves, associated himself with that car bomb.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I can't hear very well, the voice is too loud.

MR LANDMAN: I'll repeat the question, is it correct that in connection with the Bree Street car bomb, General Prinsloo did not publicly or even amongst you in the AWB camp, publicly acknowledge that he was associated with that bomb?