Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: Yes, if you could have a look at the manuscript which is there before you, which serves as Evidence Book No 1.  Those are the incidents which you describe from paragraphs 5.2.1 and on in the manuscript, is that correct?  Mr Chairman, that's from page 41 and further.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.  I see it.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, more particularly the incidents run from paragraph 5.2.6 on page 46 and further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR JANSEN: With which branch of the Security Police were these activities conducted?

WITNESS:   It was the Ermelo Security Branch, all of them, although I did work in

MR JANSEN: /certain

MR JANSEN: certain cases with the Pietermaritzburg Security Branch, Lieutenant Jerry Fourie at the time, and now and again with Komatipoort and the Security Branch, Colonel Archie Flemington.

MR JANSEN: Who was the commander of the Ermelo Security Branch at the time?

WITNESS:   When I arrived there Captain Nick van Rensburg.

MR JANSEN: Is he the same Nick van Rensburg that is mentioned in the Khondile matter?

WITNESS:   That's correct, that's the same Nick van Rensburg.  He transferred after that as a Lieutenant-Colonel to Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: And who was the regional commander under which the Ermelo branch fell?

WITNESS:   That was at the time Colonel van der Hoven, who later became Brigadier van Hoven in 1980, and shortly thereafter transferred to Durban Regional Port Natal, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Is he the same van Hoven that is mentioned in respect of the murder of Mr Griffiths Mxenge?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Now, in your understanding at the time, were the police officially, as far as the outside world is concerned, supposed to operate across the country's borders?

WITNESS:   Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Now, these activities, mainly into Swaziland at the time, did you come to see them as normal or regular activities of the Security Police?

WITNESS:   No - of the Security Police, yes, but it was not in line with official police policy, or the Police Act, which specifically confines the activities of the police with inside the borders of South Africa.

MR JANSEN: Now, did - in your understanding of the Security

MR JANSEN: /Police and

MR JANSEN: Police and its culture at the time were these kind of activities regarded as necessary?  In other words activities that in fact exceeded their actual powers.

WITNESS:   It was regarded as necessary, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR JANSEN: The activities, these illegal activities of the Security Police, and the entire Security Police culture, with reference to that, did you understand that this fight against the ANC and the other enemies could be fought with the aid of the ordinary Criminal Procedure and Terrorism Acts at the time?

WITNESS:   Not sufficiently at all, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: In 1979 you were transferred to the Middelburg branch, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman, the Middelburg Security Branch.

MR JANSEN: In what capacity?

WITNESS:   As second in charge at first, and I later took charge after a few months of the specific branch.

MR JANSEN: Where did the Middelburg branch have its offices?

WITNESS:   In the same building and on the same floor as the Regional Office, Eastern Transvaal, Security.

MR JANSEN: Did you work closely to Colonel van der Hoven at that stage?

WITNESS:   Three office doors away from him, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: And where was this?  In Ermelo or Middelburg, or ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   In Middelburg, Mr Chairman, in the police headquarters in Middelburg.

MR JANSEN: Were you involved in any illegal activities during that period at Middelburg?

WITNESS:   I was, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: You were in Middelburg for eight months, is that correct?

WITNESS:   I was, until August 1980.

MR JANSEN: /And could

MR JANSEN: And could you just briefly describe - just very briefly, because we're not dealing with that incident at the moment.

WITNESS:   Mr Chairman, about three nights after the Sasol Secunda plant was blown up by - allegedly by ANC insurgents, I led a four-man team into Manzini, Swaziland, on instruction of Brigadier van der Hoven and Brigadier Victor of Section C Headquarters, Pretoria.  We were four people, myself, Warrant-Officer Paul van Dyk, who was still then falling under the Ermelo branch, Sergeant Krappies Hattingh of - the explosive expert of the Middelburg Security Police, Sergeant Chris Rorich, the explosive expert of the Ermelo Security Police.  We went into Swaziland and we blew up the transit house in Manzini and the wooden house of Marwick Nkosi.

MR JANSEN: In your manuscript you place this incident at the time that you were already at Vlakplaas, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.  I did so in my manuscript, but it is not correct.  This manuscript was written in exile, with only my memory as help, and I was later pointed out

MR JANSEN: by Jacques Paux, the journalist, that the incident as I explained happened three nights after the Secunda blast, and that would place it then in June, the year whilst I was at Middelburg Security Branch, which I could well remember them.

MR JANSEN: It was then in August 1981 that you were transferred to Section C1, or the ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   It was in August 1980.

MR JANSEN: Yes, sorry, 1980.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Could you briefly tell the Committee how Security Police Headquarters were structured at the time?

MR JANSEN: /Yes, Mr

MR JANSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.  I've got my 1981 directory of Security Police, the whole of the country.  We had a headquarters section which consisted of the officer commanding, which was General Johan Coetzee at that stage, Major General Johan Coetzee.  Then his senior staff officer or 2IC, Brigadier J A du Preez, Jan du Preez.  And then it was divided into subsections from group A, Group B, group C and D, E, F and G, and some of these divisions, like A, was again subdivided up to A5 - A1, A2, A3, A4 and A5.  B was divided up to B3.  C was only section C1.

MR JANSEN: Okay, if you can just stop there.  Section C1 is also sometimes referred to as Section C10, so whenever there's a - is it correct that whenever there's a reference to Section C10 in any documentation it's also a reference to Section C1?

WITNESS:   That happened after my time that they changed it to C10, but it's exactly the same section, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, we have a copy of that telephone directory, which I think it would be useful to hand up to the Committee.  Unfortunately we only have one copy.  We will make additional copies as soon as we have the opportunity.

WITNESS:   Maybe I can just - to complete the sentence.  After the headquarters it was divided into regions, different regions, and the different regions then into branches, had several branches under the specific region, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Now, in August 1980 who was the head of Section C?

WITNESS:   In August 1980 it was Brigadier Victor.  In August 1980?

MR JANSEN: Yes.

WITNESS:   Yes.  At the time still Colonel Victor, Johan Victor.

MR JANSEN: /And until

MR JANSEN: And until when was he the head?

WITNESS:   It must have been until, I guess, in the early '81s, when, according to the '81 directory that I've got in front of me, Colonel Willem Skoon, W F Skoon, took over from him.

MR JANSEN: Yes.   Just for the record, Mr Chairman, the Victor which is referred to is spelt V-i-c-t-o-r, like Victor in English or "k", yes.  I've seen different spellings, yes.

WITNESS:   Excuse me, can I just mention that at that time in 1981 Colonel Victor was then the regional commander for Northern Transvaal Division, and given as J J Viktor, spelt V-i-k-t-o-r.  I don't know whether that ... (incomplete)

MR JANSEN: Yes.  What were you appointed as in Section C?