Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

MR MACADAM: 2A Amongst the 200 I divided them into four groups.  Within the four groups I elected commanders and commissars(?) before the company started training them.  After doing that I left everything over to the company who was supposed to train the people.  Since we had four groups they started with basic training.  Basic training is the training where you prepare a person from the civilian stage, a person who doesn't know anything about the army matters.  From that civilian stage, you move that person to the knowledge of being a soldier.  That's basic training.  The basic training took about 3(?) - 6 weeks.  Usually during the evenings I used to meet with the instructors to discuss the following day's schedule and also to comment on the previous work, previous day's work as to whether it was perfectly done or not.  That used to happen every day.  After that intensive training followed.  In the intensive training you train a person to be fully aware that he or she is a soldier and that takes 6 weeks too.  After 6 weeks we had a break for 2 weeks.  When coming back after the break, we entered another 6 weeks.  That's where we had to divide the calves from the bulls and that's where the young men graduate to become real men.  During that six weeks we were in the company of Commander JJ, because we knew by that time what kind of people we were looking for among the 200 people.  Among the 200 people we needed people who were to be trained as bodyguards and people who were going to be trained as contra-mobilisation group which was going to deal more in political matters.  That group which was supposed to be the defensive group which were to be trained in intelligence matters and the offensive group, those are

MR MACADAM: /the

MR MACADAM: 2A the attackers, people who don't just ask questions.  I think I have explained as to how it was structured.

MR MACADAM: Just explain in more detail these last groups.  If you start - you finished last with the offensive group.  Give us a bit more detail, if you can recall it, as to what their objectives were going to be.

WITNESS:   Do you mean the groups?

MR MACADAM: If it's easier for you, then you start with the group that you find the easiest to recall, but I'd like you just in more detail than you've given already, explain what their functions were.

WITNESS:   I will start from the bodyguards groups.  The bodyguards were trained to protect VIPs, from the President of the IFP and the Ministers and other prominent people like those who were in the urban areas representing the organisation and that was their work.  As I have already explained, it took about six weeks.  The ... (inaudible) six weeks where we have to select people whom we thought they will fit into a particular unit.  At the time while we were doing the selections we were looking at the qualities of each individual and looking at - to their strengths.  The bodyguards group, it was a group who we wanted people who were able to shoot with small firearms, brave people and thereafter we have to select the offensive group.  Here we were selecting young men, these angry short-tempered young men.  People who don't like us and(?) questions(?) a lot;  people who are able to use all the kinds of arms that we use in the camp and the defensive group have to do the intelligence work.  Those were supposed to be cool and collected, people who can mix easily with other people.  They should be people who do not like things like

MR MACADAM: /conflicts;

MR MACADAM: 2A conflicts;  people well conversant and those who were left out of the other units were put into contra-mobilisation.  Among those who were in the contra-mobilisation, there were those who did qualify to other categories.  However, because their background was very good with regards to a knowledge of Inkatha politics, we decided that we shall take them and put them into the contra-mobilisation in order for them to encourage the people's support.  That's where I end.

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairman, would this be an appropriate time for the adjournment?

MR LYSTER: Yes, I think so, until 2 o'clock.  Thank you, we will adjourn till 2 o'clock, please.
LONG ADJOURNMENT
2B ON RESUMPTION

MR LYSTER: Mr Luthuli, you are still under oath.  Mr Macadam will continue to lead you.

DALUXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (Still under former oath) (Through Interpreter)

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairperson, at the interval I was requested by the panel to convey certain instructions to counsel appearing in the matter concerning a submission to be heard by Mr Varney.  I have conveyed it to the counsel who have an interest in the matter and they have indicated that they would require at this stage, before Mr Luthuli proceeds with his evidence, for certain matters to be placed on record.  If that may be dealt with at this stage?
MR   (?): Well, I just wondered if I could have a formal ruling from the panel and find out precisely what it is.
/
MR LYSTER
2B

MR LYSTER: Yes, I undertook that - this morning, after a discussion with counsel that we would convey our decision to you one way or another as to whether Mr Varney would make a submission or not.  The panel has decided that he should make a submission and that he will make it tomorrow afternoon.  He is leaving the country on Thursday morning and that is the only time we will be able to accommodate him and that - he will make a submission, unsworn, a statement from the Bar, as it were and no cross-examination will be allowed.  He won't be led by Mr Macadam and no questions will be asked by the panel.  It will be an oral submission tomorrow afternoon and that is the ruling of the panel.
MR   (?): And on behalf of who is he making the submission?

MR LYSTER: He is an interested party.  He is not making it on behalf of anybody, he is talking ex facie documents which he is familiar with by virtue of his previous experience and he is not making a submission on behalf of any group or community as such and as I pointed out this morning, we are at liberty to permit interested parties to make submissions and he will be making a submission.
MR   (?): The submission does not relate at all to him being involved in the investigation and as an old convenor of the ITU?  Does it relate to that at all?

MR LYSTER: Look, I mean, obviously he gained knowledge and experience of those documents from that position, but he won't be talking necessarily from that perspective, only from that perspective, but Mr Varney will be making a submission tomorrow afternoon and I really don't think I can take it much further than that.
/MR   (?)
2B MR   (?):   Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: Mr Luthuli, when we adjourned you had described these four groups which the trainees were divided into and the final stage of their training.  Now in dealing with the defensive group, you said that one of their aims was to gather intelligence.  What intelligence was going to be gained - gathered?