Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR HATTINGH: Paragraph five (5) on page nine (9) which starts, "On twenty second (22nd) July 1990", and the public meeting called by SANCO.  The question is, did you attend that meeting?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, I was present at the caucus that is for the preparation of the meeting, but not the meeting itself.

MR HATTINGH: Annexure A that was prepared by Silos Nkonyane, the secretary of the ANC, do you perhaps know how this was compiled?  From what source and what documents were all those incidents taken to compile annexure A?

JOHN MNDEBELE: From all of us, because each and every one of us had some experience to share with regard to what happened.  We remembered the dates and we reminded each other of the dates on which these occurrences took place.  That's how we compiled that.

MR HATTINGH: Why do you say that this annexure A is not a complete picture of all the incidents?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It's because we didn't remember all that took place.  There's a lot that happened, but not all of it is contained in this document.

MR HATTINGH: Would it be fair to say that there were no other important incidents that occurred and that were left out from this annexure A?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Could you repeat your question please.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Hattingh.  Isn't that exactly what he is saying?  As I understand the witness here, he says, "We got together and compiled a whole list of incidents pertaining to events that were taking place during the given period.  However, this may not be a complete list of everything that had happened during that time".  I think that is what he is saying.  He is not by any means guaranteeing that everything that took place is included in this list.  This is not an exhaustive list of everything.  "There may be some incidents which we omitted, we forgot to mention and put them down in the list".

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, while accepting that this is not a complete and exhaustive list, I merely would like to find out from this witness whether we can accept as fair that there were no other major or important incidents that took place that were not mentioned in this list, whether that would be fair to accept that as a fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're asking for his opinion on whether a matter could be regarded as major or minor.  If you're asking that and you get an answer you stop with that.  You can't hold it against another witness because that would be his opinion.  If that is your question I'll allow it.

MR HATTINGH: That would remain my question, yes.

JOHN MNDEBELE: What was the question?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, in your opinion, can you recall or can you remember today incidents which you would regard as more important than those reflected in these documents or can't you say?

JOHN MNDEBELE: As of now I cannot say because I had not yet got a chance to recall as to what else happened that is not included, but there are certain things that will transpire as time goes on.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, the point I would like to make is that from the background document it would appear that a decision was taken during the middle of 1990 to involve SDUs to safeguard ANC members and property and the community at large and according to annexure A, approximately fifteen (15) serious incidents occurred in 1990 and nothing was done.  The first person that was targeted to be eliminated, this was only done early the next year.  Could you explain that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Your question is not clear.  I don't know what you want to elicit.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, the decision was taken during the middle of 1990 to do something about the violence, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that decision was taken by a committee consisting of ANC supporters or members, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: According to annexure A, consisting of a total of twenty six (26) incidents starting July 1990 and ending somewhere in 1991, approximately two-thirds of the incidents occurred in 1990, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The incidents that took place stated during 1990 and they went further on and we hoped that the police would be able to solve these problems, but to no avail and people continued dying.

MR HATTINGH: But the decision to eliminate the first person, Jwi Zwane, was only taken when it was already quiet again, is that not correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The violence was always there.  There was no stage when there was no violence.

MR HATTINGH: The annexure A refers to mostly ANC targets, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There is the members of the community or the victims within the Ermelo area.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me for a moment.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Did you take part in the Goldstone investigation or did you testify before the Commission of Judge Goldstone?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I didn't.

MR HATTINGH: Was that not an option that you could have taken at the time to quell the violence and to get the community under control?

MR PATEL: With respect, Mr Chairman, that questions seems to be unfair.  Shouldn't we establish firstly from this witness whether he knew that there was a Goldstone Commission?  Secondly, it must be established from this witness whether he knew what the Goldstone Commission was about before he can take the informed decision by himself as to whether or not to go and testify in order to bring about the end to the violence.  It must also be established from this witness whether he thought that the result of the Goldstone Commission would end the violence in the Wesselton area.  As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we get on to that, what's the point of the question?  I don't follow it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, the point is that at the time there was an alternative to do something about the violence in the community and what one would like to elicit from this witness is whether they considered this alternative instead of giving instructions to assassinate people.

CHAIRPERSON: Your question presumes that it was a satisfactory option?

MR HATTINGH: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask the witness himself then.  Did you know about the Goldstone Commission at that time?

JOHN MNDEBELE: When the violence started there was no Goldstone Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Even during the violence?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It wasn't there until at a later stage when we heard that there a Goldstone Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear there was a Goldstone Commission?

JOHN MNDEBELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was during 1992, if not '93.  Between those two years.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you think of the Goldstone Commission?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We heard that they were conducting investigations with regard to the violence, but we did not have any trust in the Commission itself because of the fact that I thought it was working with the Government that was oppressing us at that time and to me it appeared as one of the enemies and as one of the oppressors.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you know when the Commission started?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no, I wouldn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Does anybody know when that Commission started?

MR KEMP: The first hearings of that Commission started in January 1991 in Cape Town and continued through until about February/March 1992 and the first report was brought out on the 1st of December 1993, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mndebele, I would like you to turn to page thirteen (13) of the bundle of documents, to paragraph sixteen (16) of the background statement.  Now, the question is, what information was obtained and/or considered by your committee prior to coming to the decision that Jwi Zwane was to be eliminated and assassinated?