Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MR NODADA: You also stated in your evidence that you foresaw lots of blood and life in the coup, do you remember?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: When you had discussions with Col Duli, did he ever indicate whether this was intended to be a bloodless coup?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, he made mention of that because he said the support that he had was going to make sure that there's no bloodshed, but if there would be any resistance he would be forced to fight, but he had high hopes that there wouldn't be any resistance.  However he was still prepared to go there armed because he was going to fight, he was going for a battle.

MR NODADA: In your own mind you believed that it was highly improbable that this should be a bloodless coup.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was not sure, I knew that there would be bloodshed but I knew that also that would not be possible because this happened in 1997, but there was no bloodshed.  Since the situation had changed he could have foreseen that there could be some bloodshed in the process.  And I also knew that one of them is possible.

MR NODADA: Yes, and you actually realised that there was a vast difference between the 1987 coup because that was directed at a civilian government.  There was a vast difference between that coup and the coup that was planned by Col Duli, in which you were involved.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, there was a difference because this now was involving the soldiers and at first it was only a civilian battle.

MR NODADA: If you can remember, when was your last meeting with Col Craig Duli, before the coup on the date it was actually executed?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I arrived on a Tuesday and the overthrow of the government was going to take place Thursday morning.  As from Tuesday we would meet from time to time and even on Wednesday we met and Thursday.

MR NODADA: Your meeting points, were they always in East London or even elsewhere?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: We would meet elsewhere except East London.

MR NODADA: You have indicated that you did not get your salary, since when did you last receive your salary?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was a very long time because when I became permanent in Gauteng where I was residing, I had last had my salary in 1988.  However there was something that was called operational allowance that I used to get from time to time and I would be promised that.  The reason for me not to have a full salary was because they wanted to take me off the computer system to work with people who were in the operations department and I would also be flexible to move from one place to another without being in the Transkeian computers.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Nodada, just on this - so your salary wasn't suspended because of your arrest in this matter?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, that is not true, it was not suspended because of that.  But the one that was suspended because of this problem, was the operational allowance that I used to get in order to survive as I was still waiting for my salary that was still under process.

MR NODADA: At the beginning your evidence you indicated that Capt Mfazwe told you something about Holomisa and the ANC, what exactly did he say to you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Holomisa was a person who was always around, who was also the government of the Transkeian people since the overthrowing in 1988.  What happened in 1989 is this, Capt Mfazwe told me that Holomisa now stopped serving the interest of the Transkeian people, he had defected to the ANC and he was doing whatever he was being told by the ANC.  That was the reason for the conflict or the division among the military council members, because there were two groups now, the one that belonged to Craig and the other one and their opinions were always different.  And I was told to monitor both groups and try and infiltrate and get information, as much as possible.

MR NODADA: I see.  Now as you are making this application, are you making it in your capacity as an employee of the Transkei Government, or as a member of the Craig Duli group?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I am making this application as an employee of Transkei because even now I am not yet expelled(sic), I don't hold any office and I'm not getting any salary from Transkei.  I had to see to it how do I survive.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have not further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nodada.  Ms Dambuza, have you got any questions?

MS DAMBUZA: I don't have any questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Gumengu, when you were convicted in the High Court, you were convicted because you participated together with a group that was led by Mr Craig Duli to topple the Holomisa government, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, but the truth is the one that I was telling you now.

MR MAPOMA: So in actual fact you deny that you were involved in an attempt to topple the Holomisa government?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I deny that, I never attempted to overthrow the government but I was just serving in his government.

MR MAPOMA: And are you saying when you were together with the Duli group that at no stage you acted with an intention to further the interests of those who wanted to do down the Holomisa government?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I never attempted anything to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: When did Mr Mfazwe die?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: If I'm not mistaken it was June or July 1990.

MR MAPOMA: When did he instruct you to infiltrate the Duli group?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was in 1989 though I cannot remember the exact month or date, but I think it was just before Craig Duli was arrested in 1989, and after that he was released in December.  Just before his arrest I was given these instructions.  When he was arrested in 1989 I already knew about this mission and then in December 1989 when Craig Duli left for Gauteng, Capt Mfazwe emphasised that I should meet with him and he told me that he's doing everything concerning his missions in Gauteng.  As I was also told that even Holomisa was doing the same.

MR MAPOMA: Now after Mfazwe instructed you to go and infiltrate the Duli group, did you report to Mfazwe?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, all the time I used to make the report.

MR MAPOMA: What did you report to him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I would tell him about the people that I had met with and I would even update him about those people and tell him what was happening from both sides, because I was not watching one side only, I had to watch both sides and I had to update him about everything that was happening concerning their movements.  Because in 1989, up until the period where Craig Duli was arrested, around Good Friday, I hadn't seen him in Gauteng.  Even though I was told that he was there, I never got a chance to meet with him, but I used to hear from different people about what was happening.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever report to your seniors?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: I'm not finished yet.  You say you had problems in reporting after Mfazwe died, what problems were those?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As the main person that I was supposed to direct to at the time was Capt Mfazwe, it became necessary for me to report to another person who was at the head office at his desk.  I realised that Col Booi was in the uniform department in Sterkspruit and the other one was also a Quartermaster in Umtata, that's why I had to look for someone else.  I met with Mr Mzinyathi who was at the Security Branch in Norwood, Mr Ngxabane who was in the Ngangeliso office also here in Umtata.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mapoma.
	What ranks did Mr Mzinyathi and Ngxabane hold?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Mr Mzinyathi at the time was a Lieutenant if I'm not mistaken, or a Captain and Ngxabane was somewhere there a Captain or a Major.

JUDGE MILLER: Were they both members of the Security Branch?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Ngxabane was in the anti-crime prevention.