Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

MR COETZEE: The Commission has heard various forms of evidence regarding submissions and presentations which were made, what was the nature of the presentation that you made?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I did not have the same experience as the others have described with regard to the precise details and so forth.  My experience was somewhat different.  There was a board with pages and a koki and by means of these instruments, I made my presentation, indicating that Dr Webster could only be killed as an occasional target, it was difficult to establish his routine.  I did not regard Wits University where he worked, as an option, due to traffic and the security considerations, the fact that there was uniform security at the University itself, therefore I foresaw that Dr Webster would have to be killed as an occasional target and that was my presentation.

MR COETZEE: That would mean, if the situation or opportunity presented itself?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.  I also made submissions regarding a weapon and I submitted that a shotgun be used because I foresaw that he could possibly be killed in a drive-by situation, which eventually happened and I could not be certain at what time of the night or day it would take place and I thought that if one shot was fired by a shotgun, it could also be mistaken for the sound of a vehicle backfiring, that was also part of my presentation.

MR COETZEE: And this presentation that you made, while you were doing it, who was present?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Me, Lafras Luitingh and Joe Verster.

MR COETZEE: Was there any written submission with the exception of what you wrote on the board?  Did you supply any documentation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, there was no documentation.

MR COETZEE: And with this submission that you made regarding the opportunity or occasional target status of Dr Webster, what was the feedback from Lafras Luitingh and Joe Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Luitingh was like Mickey Mouse who sat there and who had seen a snake.  He didn't say anything, Joe Verster did all the talking.  Lafras would fall in every now and then, nod his head and add a few things.  I was told to continue.

MR COETZEE: Were you given any time framework within which you had to execute the operation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: There was no specific time framework or schedule, but I was told that it was absolutely urgent.  I must just add that I made inquiries regarding why Dr Webster had to be killed.  I wanted to be certain that I was killing a terrorist.  The reasons given to me for the killing of Dr Webster were that he was a left-wing radical student organiser and that he was recruiting such persons for membership of underground situations, that he was a founder member of just about every organisation which was aimed against the sovereignty of the State, such as JODAC, Nusas, the End Conscription Campaign, the Parents Support Committee, that is what was conveyed to me.  The most serious stipulation was the fact that apparently he had been busy with the compilation of a report or a document which would be sent by him or presented by him to the United Nations and it had something to do with something that Dr Webster had discovered which emanated from his field of study, which was anthropology.  This was in the Kosi Bay vicinity.  It had to do with arms supplies and I don't know what else.  It was a transaction between Renamo on the South African Government.  They wanted to stop that.  It was so serious by nature that if I could not get hold of Dr Webster under convenient circumstances, I was told to penetrate his home and kill him.

MR COETZEE: Did you personally follow up the information regarding Dr Webster's involvement?  Did you verify the information?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I allowed myself to be led by the organisation completely and that which I had read about him, but one couldn't kill every activist who differed from the Government of the day, because at the end of the day we might as well have built concentration camps like the Nazis, chased everybody in there and gassed them in the chambers.  I was under the impression that this was an absolute priority target, that this man was indeed virtually a terrorist.

MR COETZEE: But your information regarding him came from Lafras Luitingh and Joe Verster with the exception of the public information that you gleaned from the media reports?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is correct and as a result of what I was involved in, I couldn't make inquiries here and there to verify the information, that was not how it worked.  On the contrary, I was discouraged from taking such action.

MR COETZEE: Because of the security aspect?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Correct.

MR COETZEE: You have already testified that you had monitored him even in the presence of your girlfriend and that you monitored the activities of Dr Webster.  When you made this submission and you were clearly told to proceed with the execution of this operation, what did you do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Without telling anybody, I approached Calla Botha.  I had come a long way with Calla Botha, I trusted him, I knew that he was involved in the organisation.  I was a sort of a cowboy, but I wasn't the type of cowboy who could drive a car, fire a shot, get away and keep the car on the road, so I figured that I would need someone to work with me.  I never disclosed this in the organisation.  I approached Calla Botha.  I told him about the nature and the scope of the project.  I gave him all the information that I have just given you and we decided that we would make various excursions to Dr Webster's residence and every time we would prepare operationally as if the job was on for that particular time.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, did you make any preparations regarding, I don't know what skills you had at that point with regard to shooting from a moving vehicle, but did you make any preparations for the execution of this project?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, George Mitchell testified that I borrowed a short-hand shotgun from him and that I did some shooting on a farm in Natal.  I've always justified this during cross-examination before the Committees and during my criminal trial by saying that I had been shooting guinea fowl out of season.  In fact I was actually practising to shoot from a moving vehicle within a limited space at a certain time, with a modified short-hand shotgun.  I was practising.

MR COETZEE: And the shotgun that you got from Mitchell, was this the gun that you eventually used in the shooting of Dr Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: This shotgun was already back in Mitchell's possession two weeks before the murder and I used a shotgun that I obtained and modified myself.  I took the butt off and fitted it with a pistol grip to shorten it.  I shortened the barrel by six inches, approximately, and that is how I used it.

MR COETZEE: And the firearm that you obtained for this, where did you obtain it from?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It came from my private stock.

MR COETZEE: If I may ask you as follows, Mr Barnard, did you obtain it from the CCB?  Did you request it from the CCB?  Was it ever issued to you by a CCB official?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I had enough weapons to supply the CCB with, I didn't need any weapons from them.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, you were ready, you had practised using the shotgun, you had involved Mr Botha already, you can now tell the Committee how the execution took place.