Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I did not personally interrogate him.  The procedure at the Security branch normally is that if a person is arrested that there'll be a specific interrogator as well as a person who will investigate the docket so that it would almost have been the exception to the rule to burden oneself with the interrogation.  There was a specific person who had to do that.  If there any un-clarities then obviously then the investigative officer would have had a look at the docket and would have given it to the Attorney General if necessary after consultation with the suspect, amongst others.

MR VALLY: My question is this.  You had the Murder and Robbery Unit in Soweto why did this matter come to the Security branch, the matter of Oupa Sehere?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think I have already answered that question, especially because he was an overseas ANC comrade, that's why.

MR VALLY: When did you ascertain this?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think I believe that it was a couple of years ago, it should have been after the death of those two persons.  I don't remember if we knew by then that he was an ANC comrade.  I can't specifically remember whether his identity was already known by then or not, and whether it had been by way of interrogation or what.  I don't know, I don't remember.

MR VALLY: So there was a possibility that by this stage you already knew that he was a trained ANC cadre, before the murder of the Makaula brothers?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes that is true there is a possibility, it's likely.

MR VALLY: Who else was involved in this investigation, the one into the murder of Mr Makaula, besides yourself?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: A colleague of mine, Captain Badenhorst.  At the time he was involved with the investigation.  Other persons who helped at that time were Sergeant Engelbrecht if I remember correctly.

MR VALLY: At this time while you were investigating this murder there were a number of people who were residing or present at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in Orlando West who were detained, do you recall this?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, that is possible, likely, I will not deny it.

MR VALLY: And a number of them spent many months in detention in connection with this matter, would that be correct?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes that could be so Mr Chairman.  I did not see the docket so my memory is not quite clear on that investigation.  To me it has been completed, has been finalised so I did no background check to make sure.

MR VALLY: And were you personally involved in interrogating some of these people?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes that is possible.  I do not specifically remember.  It is possible that I was involved with the interrogation of some of them.  It is likely.

MR VALLY: For my knowledge of how the Security branch worked it would be very unlikely that Mr Potgieter, I am not sure if his rank was...(tape side A ends)

ANDRE KRITZINGER: .... it is possible that Colonel Potgieter was involved in the interrogation, I don't see anything sinister in that.  I can specifically remember an incident where my Divisional Commanding Officer was also part of an interrogation team, there is nothing strange about a senior person dealing with the interrogation.

MR VALLY: ... how you operated on the ground.  The normal practise was you as Lieutenant or Captain would be responsible for the investigation?  You would be driving, you would decide what was the questions that needed to be asked to prepare your case?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I would have led the investigation, but if one of my senior colleagues participated in the interrogation or had to do with taking down statements, it would not have been strange in the Security Branch, not a strange sight to see.

MR VALLY: ... but you led the investigation?  Now, in the time that the Truth Commission has been in existence, we have heard lots of stories about the methods used by Security Branch members in interrogating people.  I need to ask you specifically these people who were detained, in connection with the matter for which Oupa Sehere was subsequently convicted, were they tortured or assaulted in any way?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I am not aware that any of the detainees were tortured in any way.

MR VALLY: ... Ever aware of any Security detainee at Security Branch Headquarters at Protea Soweto, being tortured in any way whatsoever in the time that you were in Soweto?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I never committed any torture, and I am not aware that any of my colleagues did in my presence, torture any person, I am not aware of that.

MR VALLY: Did you ever hear of anyone being tortured at the Security Branch Headquarters at Protea?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I am only aware of an occasion that took place before I worked at that Security Branch where a person allegedly and I don't remember all the facts, had allegedly apparently shot a detainee while he was being interrogated in the "lokaal" that was there, unfortunately I don't remember his name.  I am aware however that my senior officer investigated this matter, and that there were criminal consequences, prosecutionary consequences in a criminal court.
 I am aware of such a matter, it did come to my attention.

MR VALLY: In the period that you were there in 1984, September 1984 and April 1991, as the Investigation Officer attached to the Security Branch, were you ever accused of torturing any person that you took to court?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I was never accused of torturing anybody, Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: ... that you, the interpreter says accused, you used the word "aangekla".  I am not asking you whether you were charged with assault or torture, I am asking you were you ever accused?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I think there was such an allegation.  Once I was requested to be on an identification parade where it was said that apparently I had assaulted a person which I categorically denied.
 These matters were investigated and were referred to the Attorney General and I want to say that I was never charged with or accused of.

MR VALLY: You were accused but you were not charged?  But let's just take it slightly further, in the matters that you took to court on behalf of the Security Branch in Soweto, were there a number of matters where people had given you confessions?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I beg your pardon, I did not hear the question.

MR VALLY: In the matters that you took to court on behalf of the Security Branch in Soweto, were there any matters where there were confessions which were produced?  Accused people who had made confessions to you which were used in court against them?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I am afraid ... (no translation)

MR VALLY: In your preparation of cases to be presented to the Attorney General for prosecution, were there a number of matters where the accused persons had made confessions to you or another Police Officer, but that they had made confessions?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: If I understand your question correctly, you are asking me whether any persons were charged with and confessed to being assaulted?

MR VALLY: No, no, let's try for the last time.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Maybe I should remove the earphones and listen to you in English and give my reply in Afrikaans.

UNKNOWN: Let my try to assist here.  I think what Mr Vally is seeking to establish from you is that when you prepared a docket, you sometimes  (indistinct) is that correct?   And sometimes confessions which are either made to Police Officers or to Peace Officers in the form of Magistrates?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Quite right, sir.

UNKNOWN: Now what he wants to establish from you is whether in your career in Soweto and in the cases for which you were responsible, there were confessions of the nature that we are talking of?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I am sure that some - the accused alleged that he was assaulted and that was ...

UNKNOWN: No, no, no.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Sure, it was.