Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR BASSON: Chairperson, firstly I do not know the reception of 50 capsules.   It is possible that it was given.   We did work with it periodically.   Natrium cyanide is a well-known chemical substance which works very quickly and the result of a mistake is very evident. Several instances we used natrium cyanide in training and I accept it was used for education or training and with the 50 bodies, I really don't know what to say.   There were no 50 attempts made to kill people.   I repeat once again that all these products were used legitimately for research and training, and I confirm once again that I do not recognise a link between myself and this list, I do not know this list, I did not draw up this list, I do not know how he marked the list and I cannot give you any connections between Koos or Jan or whoever, because I do not know.

ADV POTGIETER: This issue, was it treated covertly?

DR BASSON: Adv Potgieter, the affair was handled covertly inasfar as it concealed the identity of Dr Immelman and  Roodeplaat.   Obviously the training wasn't handled covertly, even though there were very small groups, I talk of small groups of trained agents which were deployed in different parts of the world and they had to receive this kind of training, but the covertness thereof was in order to protect the identity of Immelman and Roodeplaat.

ADV POTGIETER: And these lists in TRC52, were they delivery lists, were records of deliveries?

DR BASSON: I do not know at all, Advocate Potgieter, I did not draw up this list, it's not my list, it's not my work, I was confronted with this the first time in February '97, so I cannot explain to you this list.   I've already said that I do recognise some of these products and I do recognise some of the combinations, but it's not my list.

ADV POTGIETER: But does it seem as if it's a record of products or substances which were delivered to people who are not really identified in these documents?

DR BASSON: It looks to me like a list of products and mixtures, whether it's a delivery list, I do not know.  It might as well have been a production list, I do not know.

ADV POTGIETER: And those names, do they look like code names to you?

DR BASSON: I don't see any names, I only see letters, I don't understand what the names or the letters mean, I did not write them there, I really do not know.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

MR VALLY: You see - sorry.

DR RANDERA: Dr Basson, did you at any time request from Roodeplaat Laboratories, let's forget the list, the substances that we're talking about for the experimental purposes that you've been referring to, or is this just theory on your part as well that it's a possibility that this was produced?   What I'm asking is, did you at any time request, for these practical and experimental purposes that you've referred to, any of these substances?

DR BASSON: Most of these substances and the combinations thereof were recommendations coming from Roodeplaat from their people.   I cannot remember that I specifically requested for substance X, Y or Z.   That I needed training substances and requested it, yes, and at some point, yes I did request some of these substances, for example the cholera, I do remember asking for a sample once, on the request of another party where we did certain genetic identification work with regards to it.   Yes, some of these type of products, I can't tell you it's these products, but some of these type of products were used and requested for certain training purposes.

DR RANDERA: So besides the one time that you requested this yourself, are you surprised, as the head of this operation, at the number of items that appear on this list, it may have been collected over a period of time, but you yourself are only aware of one time where you requested this, and you're the head of this operation?

DR BASSON: I apologise, I expressed myself badly, I did not mean that I said I requested it only once, I used the cholera as an example, several times I did ask for certain equipment with regards to training purposes, and this could have included some of these items, the amount of times I cannot remember.   If I look at the extent of the training and the extent of the research, I'd think that this is a minimal amount of things, and the extent of such a list would not surprise me, it's a small amount of substances, it's only the items, to make an allegation that you wanted to commit mass murder with any of these is, it's a flight of fantasy.

DR RANDERA: So, as I understand it, as the head of this operation, you could go to Roodeplaats at any time and say to Dr Immelman, as the head of the Microbiology Section there, "I'd like this for experimental purposes", and it would be produced for you, or what I'm trying to understand is, what's the process?   From my understanding of what Dr Immelman said and what you've been saying, clearly they were involved in experimental work, now yet we have a complete list of substances, and I'm willing to accept your bona fides that this was for experimental purposes, but what I'm trying to understand is, how does this request come through?  Is it only you, as the head of the operation, who would be able to request these sort of substances, because you would accept, I mean even for lay people on the panel and listening, people will say these are potentially harmful substances, destructive substances.   Yes, I mean I can pick up any medical textbook and it would tell me what the effects of cholera is and of salmonella typhirium is, but in the amounts that they were being produced, who would have that power to be requesting it, whether for experimental purposes or other purposes?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, on Dr Immelman's evidence alone, it's obvious that I wasn't closely linked to him, there was also this Chris and Koos and Karel or whatever, and I can't remember who they were, I was definitely one of the contacts with Roodeplaat, but it's not crazy to think that other people in this project also had contacts with Roodeplaat, it could have been straight from (indistinct) with regards to certain work they must have been doing, so I don't remember it, but it could have been possible, so I'm not saying I was the only person.   It would also seem from the case from Dr Immelman's affidavit, that there were other people who could have been involved and who was working with other projects, and as leader of this project, I was daily too busy to look at every aspect.   So no, the answer is I was not the only channel, there were probably more than one channel and I was not the only person who could make that request.

DR RANDERA: Dr Basson, sorry, I understand from these names that are being - Koos and the others that have been put forward, what I'm trying to understand, you as the head of this programme, are you aware of other people who could make these sort of requests?   Are you suggesting that Dr Immelman had a parallel structure going perhaps with other agents who could request these sort of substances, which you aren't aware of, or was there other channels under you whereby people could go to Roodeplaats and say, "Listen, I want 20 bottles of beer with paraquat in it", and how would that be reported to you, as the head of this structure?