Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.  I wasn't that aware of what was going on in Operation Vula at this stage.

MR WILLS: And later on?  When did you become aware of Operation Vula?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Botha would then, he then brief me more fully on what was happening in this particular instance.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And when did that briefing occur?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That took place intermittently after we had been at this house.  He then took me into confidence and started to tell me more and more what had been happening since he had been handling Ndaba.

MR WILLS: And this was obviously prior to the death of these people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: So can I assume that you were fully appraised of the situation in regard to the seriousness of Operation Vula prior to the death of these two individuals?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mr Botha briefed me as he deemed fit, I don't know if I was fully appraised with all the facts, but he briefed us to what he deemed necessary for us to know.

MR WILLS: Well, let me rather rephrase that and say that you were aware that these two people were involved in this people's revolt, or this insurrection that it was termed later and the seriousness of the situation prior to their death?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes Sir.

MR WILLS: And you were aware that both of these people were involved in this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, according to Mr Botha's debrief.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So did you question Mr Shabalala about his involvement?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Sir.

MR WILLS: Why not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was informed not to speak to him and not to try and recruit him.

MR WILLS: Who told you that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Botha told us.

MR WILLS: So who spoke to him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I have no idea.

MR WILLS: Did anybody?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Members of C20 might have spoken to him.

MR WILLS: Do you know if any of your colleagues spoke to him, let's say Mr du Preez?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He may have, Sir.

MR WILLS: Mr Steyn?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, Mr Steyn never came there.

MR WILLS: Mr Steyn never came to the Verulam house?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: What about Mr van der Westhuizen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not in my presence, Sir.

MR WILLS: Have you questioned people to get information out of them before?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes. Sir.

MR WILLS: I would imagine that's quite a big part of your job being a Security Policeman?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Now, you see what my question is, Mr Wasserman, and what my problem is, is that you become aware of this person who's involved in this major operation which might even involve the overthrow of the negotiations and destabilisation of everything that was going on at the time, and he might have a lot of information, but you don't question him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I had been informed that there were sources inside there and we were told by Mr Botha to play it gently and leave it at that.

MR WILLS: But wouldn't it be a fair assumption for me to make that the chances are that Shabalala would have information about Vula that might have helped you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's a fair assumption.

MR WILLS: Yes, and isn't it also a fair assumption to make that if you speak to two people and get information from two people, the chances are you can have more information as a result of that just speaking to the one?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's a fair assumption.

MR WILLS: And isn't it a fair assumption to say that Shabalala might have been extremely valuable to you in regard to getting information about this operation?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is a fair assumption.

MR WILLS: Yes, so didn't you think it strange that you were asked not to talk to him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman there was apparently information emanating from this operation.  Mr Botha had told us and that what his reasons were for not engaging in an operation with Mr Shabalala he never made clear.

MR WILLS: No I'm not asking you whether Botha gave reasons at this stage, I might later.  I'm asking you didn't you feel that it was strange that you got this specific instruction not to talk to this person?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir I didn't see it as strange.

MR WILLS: This valuable, this potentially valuable source?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir it wasn't strange.

MR WILLS: Well I put it to you, I find it very strange.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's not a strange thing.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me why, you see there's a - can you tell me why, or rather let me phrase it in a different way.  Were you under the impression that Shabalala was giving no co-operation?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: After a couple of days, I was, Sir.

MR WILLS: How did you come to that conclusion?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: If I went into his room to see how he was and things like that and for food, his body language and he wasn't interested in us at all.

MR WILLS: Do you expect the Committee to believe that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he had nothing to say to me, he wouldn't engage in any discussions with us, he was not interested, he had nothing, absolutely nothing to say to me.

MR WILLS: But you've just indicated to the Committee that you had instructions not even to talk to him, not even to ask him questions.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I didn't ask him questions.

MR WILLS: No, but I'm saying how can you, if you are, if what you say is true, that you were given orders not to even talk to him and your evidence is that  you obeyed those orders, how can you yourself testify to the effect that this person wasn't co-operating?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, as you've said, I have spoken to people on many occasions.  He wasn't to co-operate and I wasn't to question him, therefore everybody was at a position where we knew where we stood.

MR WILLS: What do you mean, he wasn't to co-operate?  How did you know that if you didn't even speak to him?  That's my point.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I never spoke to him.

MR WILLS: Then how did you know he wasn't co-operating?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't have to speak to you and you can see that I'm not co-operating.

CHAIRPERSON: But you arrested this man.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's a human thing.  There was no reason, I was told not to speak to the man.

CHAIRPERSON: You've arrested this man, you've taken him to a strange house, you have handcuffed him, you have locked him in a room and then you walk into the room and you don't speak to him, you walk out.  You walk into the room, you don't speak to him, you walk out.  How do you expect him to react?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Perhaps in the uncooperative way that he did, Sir.

MR WILLS: You see, in Mr Botha's application he referred to the person as uncooperative and my understanding is that his lack of co-operation was one of the factors in the assessment of Shabalala, that contributed to the decision to kill him, is that accurate?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, I made no decision to kill him.

MR WILLS: No I realise that, but you've been here hearing the evidence.  I'm asking you on the basis of the evidence that you heard.

MR VISSER: Well, I must object to that Mr Chairman, that wasn't even nearly the evidence, with great respect.  Far from it.  Botha gave his reasons very explicitly, they're contained in Annexure D, Exhibit D, and it certainly does not contain the consideration that the man was uncooperative.  It had to do with the protection of Ndaba, Mr Chairman.