Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: Zone 12 is far from Zone 8.  You do your terrible things in Zone 12 then you'd go to Zone 8 and the people in Zone 8 would not know you.  There are members which I did not know at that time because we were many.

ADV BOSMAN: No you don't understand my question.  You told us that the whole community wanted the girls, and then you were asked about the community and you said all the Zones had SDU units, and now my question is, if these girls were wanted by the whole community including Zone 8, why would they go to a tavern in the community to expose themselves?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't know the reason why they went to that tavern.  I have just used my own analysis that they knew that Zone 8 is not, they were not known, and it's not infested with violence.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you hear me ask that question to Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I heard.

ADV BOSMAN: That's why I'm not really surprised at your answer.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, you have listened to the evidence that was given by Mr Mkhwanazi with regard to when the community became aware of the activities of Ms Ndumo, who is now deceased, and Ms Mokoena, and how he himself became aware of their activities, and the period in which he became aware of their activities.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Now his evidence differs with that given by you.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I'm aware, because he's staying in Zone 12 and I was not staying in Zone 12, which means he knew these things before I did.

CHAIRPERSON: My problem however, inasmuch as I'm aware of what you are saying, and I would agree with you, you didn't stay in Zone 12, where at least we have established that Ms Mokoena stayed, no evidence was led by Mr Mkhwanazi, on where Ms Ndumo stayed.  My problem however is what Mr Mkhwanazi said in this evidence.  He stated that he as a member of the SDU advised his unit about the activities of the ladies in question.  Do you recall Mr Mkhwanazi when he gave testimony to that effect?

JOHN RADEBE: When he said what? ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't change my gender.

INTERPRETER: I think he's talking to the interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that was referred to me.  Mr Mkhwanazi stated that he shared his information about the activities of the ladies in question with his unit, that would be your unit, in Zone 12.  He went on to say in any event the ladies were quite notorious with the community at large because of their activities.  The community at large was aware of their activities.  In a way you've also admitted that the community was aware of their activities, however, in your evidence in chief you sought to rely on the information given to you by your commander, comrade Mabusa Mhlongo, and stated that had it not been him you wouldn't have been aware of the ladies' activities.  What I do not therefore understand, is whether Mr Mkhwanazi was telling us the truth when he said he as a member of your unit shared this information with you.  When I say you, I am talking about your unit to which you were a second in command.  Now why should you wait for comrade Mabusa Mhlongo to give you information in that regard, when on the evidence of Mr Mkhwanazi that information had been freely given to you as members of your unit?

JOHN RADEBE: As I was the second in command in that unit, it's not that I did not trust what Mkhwanazi said, as he was in my unit, but I would not take any instruction from him, that a particular operation should be executed.  I had to wait for Mr Mabusa to give an order that the situation is like this, and this should be done.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence was that Mr Mabusa told you about the activities of the ladies in question.  It was not to the effect that he gave you the order to kill them.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I said s.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you first became aware of the, your evidence said you got the information about the activities of the ladies from comrade Mabusa, and that you heard this in 1992 or early 1993.  That was your evidence.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mkhwanazi telling us the truth when he said he had shared this information, with his unit to which you were also a member?

JOHN RADEBE: He was telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Why then, did you only have to have this information from the lips of comrade Mabusa?

JOHN RADEBE: Because he is the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: So you only trusted the information that was told to you by a commander, and not the information shared with you by a person who was staying closer to one of the ladies in question?  You didn't trust Mr Mabusa when he told you that, Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: I trusted him.

CHAIRPERSON: So, I still do not understand what you are saying.  Did Mr Mkhwanazi tell you about the ladies' activities?  Was that before you were told by comrade Mabusa?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not believe his information but only believed the information and act upon it once it was told to you by comrade Mabusa?

JOHN RADEBE: Not that I did not trust Mr Mkhwanazi's information, but as we are all members of the unit I would not take a decision on my own that this what we should do.  It would come to the ears of Mr Mabusa and then he would be the one who would issue a command.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm not even addressing the issue of whether Mr Mabusa gave you an order or commanded you to execute the ladies in question.  I haven't come to that stage yet.  I am merely trying to establish whether Mr Mkhwanazi shared this information with you, and if he did, why did it not say in your evidence that you first became aware of the activities of the late Ndumo and the person you assaulted, Ms Mokoena, when Mr Mkhwanazi advised the activities to your unit.  Why did you not say that?

JOHN RADEBE: I said it is the truth of what he said, and it's true that he told us, but we would not act according to that information.  We had to wait for Mr Mabusa to inform us, then it's then that I can take an action.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I will leave that aspect there and take your answers for what they are worth.  Is it your evidence that you were commanded by comrade Mabusa to kill the ladies in question?  Is that your evidence?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And comrade Mabusa commanded you to execute these ladies in his capacity as a commander of your unit in Zone 12.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Let me try to explain.  In Vaal we had ANC structures.  You'll find there is ANC youth league, there is a civic associations, and then the SDU's and members of the MK.  There are problems which would make us to meet, therefore we would discuss about that particular problem.  Then from there a decision would be taken.  But the major decision would be taken by those who are responsible for the defence.  That is why I said the command came from Mr Mabusa.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a very simple question that I'm putting to you.  It did not necessitate an explanation that you gave.  Comrade Mabusa gave you an order to execute, and he gave such an order as your commander, and you belonged to the Zone 12 unit?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And may I ask when this command was issued by your commander, Mabusa?

JOHN RADEBE: I will say some months before this incident.  Or maybe weeks, but it's not on that particular day of the incident.  The command was issued that wherever or whenever we see these people we should execute the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: I was about to go, I was going to ask you about the nature of the command and you have now come to my assistance.  The command was whenever you as members of the unit, you used the word plural, when we, when you as members of the unit saw the ladies in question you were to kill them.  Was that the command?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this command was given to you as a unit, not necessarily to you as Mr Radebe?