Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

MR VISSER: Well, that can surely be checked, Mr Chairman, and as to who it was as well, one would assume.  Now you first stated that one white policeman came into the room while there were other policemen in the room and he then asked them to leave?

WITNESS:   Yes.  There were man police that entered my house, about five in number.

MR VISSER: All right.  But the fact is the conversation that you referred to in your evidence took place between you and one white South African policeman of the Internal Stability Unit, as I understand your evidence?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR VISSER: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR MACADAM: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairperson.
/
CHAIRMAN
3B

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question, Mr Mbambo.  Did you, during this period that you've been talking about in Esikhaweni, did you, amongst the many people that you have testified that you killed, was one of them or any of them an insurgent, an armed insurgent or an MK operative?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that?

WITNESS:   It was Bafana Jele and the group that he was with in J1 in Esikhaweni.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they killed?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they killed by you in your capacity as a KwaZulu Police Officer or were they killed by you in your capacity as a member of this hit squad?

WITNESS:   They were killed by me in the capacity of the hit squad.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were they?

WITNESS:   They were four.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Mbambo.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm terribly sorry.  Visser on record again.  It seems to me there is one further question in elucidation which I should really ask of this gentleman.  You referred, Mr Mbambo, to a statement which was made the Monday and which was handed to Mzimela.  Have I got that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR VISSER: Was it you that made the statement?

WITNESS:   No.  The statement was made by the sergeant, the one who came with the Internal Stability Unit at my house.

MR VISSER: The one that said it's okay for you to have the AK47s in your possession?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR VISSER: Where can we find that statement?  Do you know?

WITNESS:  I have no idea, unless you contact Mzimela, because there were two statements that were submitted with regard to that incident.

MR VISSER: Will you tell us who made the other statement?

WITNESS:  /Mrs Mbuyazi

MR VISSER: 3B Mrs Mbuyazi made the other statement.

MR VISSER: Please, could you help us?  Did you know - did you read any or both of these statements?

WITNESS:   I read Mrs Mbuyazi's statement, because I was the one who obtained, when it went - after she wrote it and I did not read the sergeant's statement.  I was just told by Mzimela that they came to submit the statement.

MR VISSER: What did Mrs Mbuyazi say in her statement?

WITNESS:   It was a citation(?) that was linking Mdu Mzimela and Mrs - that was linked by the two, Mzimela and Mbuyazi.  Gcina Mkhize did explain here that in Esikhaweni there were sections and those sections were divided ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm going to stop you.  I'm asking a very straightforward question.  What did Mrs Mbuyazi say in her statement?

WITNESS:   The answer that I will give to you will be based on the information that, on the background of that statement.  Without that, I cannot answer you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, you can clarify afterwards, if you like, but we - the question was, what did the statement contain?  What did the statement say and we will allow you, if you want to, to clarify the basis on which you think it was made, but please tell us what the statement said.

WITNESS:   It had the consent of the IFP local leadership about the harassment of the police who were residing in J2 section and the section that was known as the IFP section.  I was residing in that section myself.  Now the statement was about the incident that took place that night and the concerns of the IFP local leadership about the whole thing.

MR VISSER: May I paraphrase that I think you're saying?

MR VISSER: /You're

MR VISSER: 3B You're saying the statement made by Mrs Mbuyazi stated that if you were found in possession of AK47s, you had that with the consent and approval of the IFP in order to protect yourself.  Is that what you're saying?  As a policeman?

WITNESS:   No.

MR VISSER: Then I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.  What did she say in the statement?

WITNESS:   Mrs Mbuyazi stated on the statement that as a leader of the IFP, stated her concern about the harassment that was taking place amongst the police who resided in J2 section.  Now the J2 section was predominantly IFP section.  Now the arrival of the police and the fact that they broke my door searching for AK47, were given the information by one police within the Esikhaweni Police Station in KwaZulu.  That was taken by an IFP as a kind of harassment, because rumours had it in Esikhaweni that the police who resided in J2 were IFP and we're the ones who were helping IFP to kill ANC.

MR VISSER: I just want to place on record, I haven't asked you any of this, Mr Mbambo.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Chairperson, I think that that is highly unfair.  The - Mr Visser has asked what was contained in that statement.  Mr Mbambo initially responded by trying to put a contextual aspect to the statement in order that the contents of the statement could be explained.  That was denied of him.  He then went and explained what was in the statement and he has now given further context.  What happened there is highly - I think highly relevant in answer to the question that was sought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I said that he could explain the context
 /in
3B in which he thought the statement was made, so ... (incomplete)

MR VISSER: Well, is he then responding to your question, Mr Chairman?  I didn't understand it that way, Mr Chairman.  I'm trying to get to the point here.  I'm not - but if he is responding to your question, well, then fine.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I understood him to say insofar as the statement said, I think I understood him to say that the statement was a statement by Mrs Mbuyazi expressing concern that policemen living in J2 section was subject to continual harassment and then, without saying that he had stopped talking about the statement, he then went on to say that there was this perception that J2 ...[break in recording] ... sorry, the statement related to Mrs Mbuyazi's concern that people in J2 section were being harassed.

MR WILLS: Yes, that was my understanding of the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Is there anything further that needs to be clarified?

MR VISSER: Well, can we go on with my questions then?  Did that refer to the harassment, as you put it, of members of the IFP in J Section by the South African Police or was it by the KwaZulu Police?

MR WILLS: Sorry, I must - with respect, Mr Visser, that question is not entirely accurate.  If I can just finish?  The position is, is the harassment referred not to IFP people generally, but to IFP, to policemen living in an IFP area?

CHAIRPERSON: That's correct, that's the answer I heard.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't understand why Mr Wills
 /is
3B is getting so excited.  I'm simply trying to establish and this witness could have, quite easily, told you right at the inception what the statement said.  I'm trying now, I have - I'm reduced to having to drag it out of him and I'm trying my best, Mr Chairman.  With the leave of Mr Wills, was the complaint about harassment directed at the South African Police or the KwaZulu Police?  That's the question.  I hope there's nothing with that question.

MR WILLS: I'm happy with that question.  Thanks, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Well, at least you got my name right.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.  Please repeat your question.