Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely the point, that's the point I'm trying to make to you and that is, in this affidavit the man says: "I was approached to make an application for amnesty but I refused".  If one accepts that then it's simple ...[indistinct] to question the application that occurs at 144.  In fact it is our - in view of this affidavit by Mr Lukhozi, we propose I think to do no more than just to strike this application off the role with the direction that perhaps the TRC should go back to Mr Lukhozi and advise him of his rights concerning an application for amnesty and the consequences of the withdrawal of this application in view of the fact that it may well be after the cut-off date.  That is what we propose doing.
	We are not disposed at this stage simply to withdraw his application on the basis, we believe that his rights ought to be explained to him before any further steps can be taken.  Suffice it to say that in view of this affidavit, the signatures that appear on this document and the one there, there may well be something in what he says in this affidavit.

MR BERGER: About not making an application?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that is not what we have to decide.

MR BERGER: Indeed Chairperson, but the point I'm making is that this application of Mr Lukhozi starting at page 144, was submitted as part of a group of applications and I'm suggesting that there is something funny with this application and this application wasn't submitted on its own, it was submitted as a group and there might be something in that.  I won't take it any further at this stage.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, may I come in at this stage?  Firstly I want to make the point that I can't see what this issue has to do with the cross-examination of the witness on the witness stand at this moment.  	Secondly I want to place it on record that I went to Medium B Prison, Diepkloof and I obtained this statement which appears on page 144 to 146 from Mr Lukhozi and interpreter accompanied me, he signed that statement in my presence, that is his signature and if needs be I will call the interpreter and lead evidence on this aspect.
	I furthermore state that his second affidavit, the one that was handed in yesterday does not reflect the true situation and I will give evidence to that effect if needs be.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, the reason that I'm asking you about this is because in one application Mr Lukhozi says he was part of the attack, in another statement he says he wasn't part of the attack and I'm asking you whether he was and you say: "Yes, he was part of the attack", is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to now refer you, well tell you about a document and ask you for your response.  This is a memorandum ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, just before you proceed, to the extent that the affidavit by Mr Lukhozi has now been referred to, perhaps it is appropriate to enter it on the record and this would be the first of those, wouldn't it?   Shall we make it Exhibit A, I think it is.

MR BERGER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the handwritten statement which is undated, made by Thomas Sipho Lukhozi, which at the second page indicates that it was taken by one, S M Madiba, will be handed in as Exhibit A and in view of the contents of that statement it appears appropriate at this stage to have the application by Thomas Lukhozi, which is AM7396/97 being struck off the role.  We would recommend that the TRC should endeavour to get in touch with Mr Lukhozi and indicate the implications of the withdrawal of his application if that is what he intends to do.
	It appears from his statement that he has given to, he has given a name of an Advocate A S Burger and his cellular phone number, perhaps the TRC could also get in touch with the lawyer reflected in that statement.
	Mr Strydom, is there anything you want to add to that?

MR STRYDOM: I've got nothing to add.

CHAIRPERSON: You do confirm that you're not acting for him?

MR STRYDOM: I'm not acting for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.

MR STRYDOM: Maybe I can just place on record what happened here.  After he signed that first statement, the application, there was a request for further particulars and a request to submit an affidavit.  He was again visited in jail and at that stage he did not want to speak to us any further and he said his advocate is Advocate Burger and that's the reason why at the beginning of this hearing we withdraw as his representatives.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you wanted to place on record in this regard?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the application has been struck off the role but I take it that the documents themselves are still capable of being referred to?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, for whatever relevance ...[intervention]

MR BERGER: For whatever they're worth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, just also for record purposes, I'm not the Advocate Berger that is referred to in that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: We accept that.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, ...[intervention]

MR STRYDOM: Sorry to interrupt again, sorry.  There was reference to the signature that differs in his statement.  I've got another statement which the same Thomas Lukhozi has signed and this statement was to withdraw his bail because he was serving a sentence in any event on another charge and if there's going to be a reference to his signature, I would like to hand up this document just to show the signature on this document as well.  I would beg leave to hand up this document.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have enough copies of this document?

MR STRYDOM: Unfortunately I haven't got copies at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: That's okay.  ...[indistinct] on record, this signature which appears here differs from the one that is on the handwritten statement and it also differs from the one - well does it, I'm no handwriting expert but it does seem to me that it's similar to the one that is on page 146 of the application paper.  Would you like to have a look at this Mr Brink?  Would you also show it to Mr Berger?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, likewise I don't pretend to be a handwriting expert but the signatures on this document and that which appears at page 146 appears to be the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you show that to Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: I'm also no handwriting expert but it could be, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the sworn statement by Thomas Mkeshleni Lukhozi deposed to on the 5th of February 1998 will be handed in as Exhibit B.
	Yes, very well.  Thank you Mr Berger, will you proceed?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairman.
	Mr Mthembu, I want to read to you from a document which was compiled by the police and I want to ask you to comment if you can on the allegations made in this document.  It says:
"On the 15th of March 1992, an attack took place at Chiefs Place Tavern in Sharpeville.  Two woman were killed and several injured"
Do you know anything about that attack?

MR MTHEMBU: No, Sir, I know nothing about that.

MR BERGER: One of the perpetrators of the attack was injured by one of his colleagues by accident.  He has stated on affidavit as follows.  Now, this is his affidavit
"I am able to live a the Kwamadala Hostel without charge.  I am unemployed, as are several of the other residents of the hostel.  We are supported by those residents who are employed"
I assume you can confirm that as applying to the people who came from Umsinga, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: He goes on to say
"In addition we received food parcels from the International Red Cross every two weeks"

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I have knowledge about that.
MR BERGER
"We also robbed people in town.  We as a group approached individuals and threatened them so that they gave us money"

MR MTHEMBU: No comment.

MR BERGER: Does that mean you have no knowledge or you don't want to comment?