Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mr Faltein, could you just assist  us in providing us with more information with regard to your self-defence unit.  Was it connected to the ANC structure or was it connected to the community, like the Civic Association?

UNKNOWN: It was connected to Civic Association.  Everything that we did was reported to the Civic
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Association.

ADV DE JAGER: I've still got no answer on my question.   You said the deceased fired one shot.  Then  I asked you how many other shots were fired.  Then you said, Scarface also fired a shot.  Is that correct or not?

UNKNOWN: Yes, after the deceased shot, Scarface kept on shooting.  I cannot tell exactly how many shots were they.

ADV DE JAGER: On your side, how many shots were fired?

UNKNOWN: Only Themba shot once  and nothing afterwards.

ADV DE JAGER: How far was the deceased from you when he was shot and  fell down?  Could you point out perhaps?

UNKNOWN: I can point  from the first person in the first row, almost here next to me, but I can't remember well because it happened quite a while ago.  I can't remember clearly.  (DISTANCE INDICATED)

CHAIRPERSON: About 10 paces.

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson, it is 10 paces  as  he describes.

UNKNOWN: Yes,  I cannot count clearly,  but I am not sure as to the measurements, but that's what I can work out.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened when the deceased was shot, what happened to Scarface?

UNKNOWN: As soon as  the deceased fell down I don't know what happened to Scarface, because we ran immediately after that.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of gun did Scarface have and what sort of gun did the deceased have?

UNKNOWN: The deceased had a 9mm and the deceased had just a long gun(??).

JUDGE WILSON: Who had the long gun?

UNKNOWN: Scarface had the long gun.
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JUDGE WILSON: /...
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JUDGE WILSON: And he fired many shots at you I gather with this long gun?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he did shoot, but I didn't count how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the others that accompanied the deceased while they were chasing you?

UNKNOWN: They were running after him and the moment when he fell we ran away.  We don't know what happened to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your group ever take a decision that the deceased should be killed?

UNKNOWN: No, we never take the decision that the deceased must be killed.

JUDGE WILSON: One  final point I'd like you to clear up for me, please.  You told us that you were on the way to visit your parents on the 24th December, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Where were you .....

UNKNOWN: When all this started the ANC Youth League,  they decided to take us to Orlando in a mission, for Methodist Mission.  That's where we stayed in Orlando.

JUDGE WILSON: Where do your parents live?

UNKNOWN: They are staying in Khutsong, 66 Xhosa Section.

JUDGE WILSON: And I take it there  are many  ways of getting from the Methodist Mission to your  parents without going past 685, which you knew to be the headquarters  of the vigilantes?

UNKNOWN: No, as I said, the Methodist Church that I am talking about is in Orlando, in Soweto.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you have your firearms in the Methodist Mission in Orlando?
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UNKNOWN: No, we never had firearms.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, where did you get them on this day?

UNKNOWN: No, these firearms we had them in the location and then there were donations from the location community to get these firearms.

JUDGE WILSON: You told us you found your firearm lying in the street after a fight.  Now you say it was donations from the location community?

UNKNOWN: As I said that as I was staying in Orlando they were - the particular one that I had I picked it up in the street.  The rest was donated by the location community.

JUDGE WILSON: Where were they kept?

UNKNOWN: They were being kept in the location.  This lady, she is no longer in the location now.

JUDGE WILSON: Do I understand that on this day on the  way to visit your parents you stopped, armed yourselves, and then proceeded to pass the place where you knew the vigilantes lived?

UNKNOWN: No, we were not carrying these  weapons because  we were going to go via there, but we were just on  our way home and we just met the deceased on his way out from 685.

JUDGE WILSON: But you had armed yourself.  You have told me that you did not have these weapons at the Methodist Mission  where you were living at the time, so you must have  armed yourself that day on the way to visit your parents, is that  so?

UNKNOWN: No, these firearms we were just having them to protect us in the location in case we come across the vigilante gangster groups.  It was just coincidence that we met the deceased in the street.

JUDGE WILSON: But you went to where he lived.  Don't talk
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about coincidence, you went to 685,  didn't you?   That's where you met him, coming out of 685.  Is that not the truth?

UNKNOWN: No, we were not going to 685.  We were passing there.   It is on our way home.

JUDGE WILSON: You were passing there, armed with weapons you had collected that day.  Is that not true?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we had guns, but we were just on our way home.  It was just in the neighbourhood.

UNKNOWN: Could you not have used a different route other than having to go past 685 to get to your parents' home?

UNKNOWN: No, there was no other route, because our houses are in the same street.

UNKNOWN: When was your parents' home set on fire?

UNKNOWN: It was burnt on the 3rd December 1990 by the vigilantes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Faltein, this is not a case where you were  sent on a mission by a political organisation or SDU, given a weapon and given instructions to go and eliminate somebody who was interfering with political activity.   Your mission was not on such instructions.

UNKNOWN: We were not given instructions.   We were just always in possession of these guns in order to defend ourselves and the community against these gangsters.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... that you went past 685 by coincidence  or simply because there was no other way.  It is not because  you had been given instructions to go and eliminate this ...

UNKNOWN: We were just passing.   We had no intentions to shoot them, only to find out that the deceased appeared out of the yard to shoot us.  We had no intentions to kill
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anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: ... house No 685 on previous occasions,  is that correct?

UNKNOWN: No, we always  go past 685 because even on our
way to school we always use that route.

UNKNOWN: Mr Faltein, I want to understand you.  I am a little bit confused.   Can I assume that your evidence is to  this effect,  that you did not intend to shoot Mayeko, and that if Mayeko had not come out of 685 and shot at you you would not have shot at him?

UNKNOWN: Yes,  our intention was not to shoot him.   We were just on our way and when he appeared and to shoot us,  unfortunately my co-accused tried to scare him away, not to  kill him.

UNKNOWN: ... shot in self-defence.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we were shooting back in self-defence.  We were trying to run away.  Unfortunately he was shot.

UNKNOWN: ... attempted to kill you, even if he was not Mr Mayeko, the leader of the vigilante group?

UNKNOWN: We were not going to shoot anybody.    The only problem  that we have was the vigilante group.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was that had it been anybody else instead of the deceased, had there been anybody else who shot at you, you would have shot back at him.

UNKNOWN: Most of the vigilante people we knew them;  we wouldn't just shoot back.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, you have had a good rest.  It is your turn.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Faltein, since when did you become a member of the SDU, which year?