Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry to interrupt you Mr Visser.  I am here, I am speaking from here, sorry to interrupt you, I don't know how many more pages you are going to take us through, I am just wondering whether we are not in fact not simply putting the record on record, because that's what we are doing it seems to me.  Would it not have been better if, for example, if you go stage by stage that way, at the same time we invite the witness to comment so that we could immediately capture, you refer to a passage and possibly you read it and then thereafter we invite the witness to capture his response to it as we go along.

MR VISSER: I understand Mr Chairman.  The point here, and I should have made it more clear I think, the idea was not to take General Viktor through the evidence of General van der Merwe by myself because he can't really give evidence about what van der Merwe gave, but rather where he is implicated himself.  So what I am doing at that moment is just summarising where in the record these issues do arise and what the issues are so that if cross-examination is going to be directed at General Viktor at least your Committee will know where to find these references.
	There are only another five, may I give you the page numbers without any further detail.  It's page 89 at line 21, going over the page to page 90 Mr Chairman, line 18 and you can stop there.
	Again at page 95, dealing with the undeclared state of war from line 3 to line 20.  
	Then regarding the authority of Viktor to have been able to give the instruction which Brigadier Cronje says he understood, at page 96, in our submission, is an important piece of evidence by General van der Merwe, from line 15 to line 23.  And he ends and may I be allowed to just read this to you referring to General Viktor,
"No, he never had the power or authority to give such an instruction".
That is an instruction to eliminate and to kill.
	Mr Chairman, as far as the Nietverdiend matter is concerned we will deal with that, the reference in the record is page 97, i.e is the third issue there on Annexure A line 14 to line 22.
	And the second-last evidence in General van der Merwe's evidence, Mr Chairman, is at page 102.  Again dealing with Viktor's instruction and the whole page is relevant, but especially from line 28 to the bottom of that page.
	The last reference, Mr Chairman, as a general background, is at page 106, dealing again with illegitimate actions from line 24 to 28.
	I am sorry Mr Chairman there is one further one and that is the question of whether General Viktor was authorised to give instructions from higher up as it was put, and that is at page 107 line 22 from the words, "I must, however, state.....", over the page Mr Chairman.
	Not that we have been informed that this would be part of the evidence, but you will recall in the evidence of General van der Merwe, Mr Chairman, there was reference to TREVITS, and I am referring to page 108, and at .......
POWER FAILURE

MR VISSER: .....to answer in his mother tongue, it is your decision.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is possible for him to follow your questions in English than we will save time.

MR VISSER: Certainly Mr Chairman I will gladly do so.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Where do you live at the moment?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I live on the farm Goedemoed in the Hobhouse district.

MR VISSER: Were you a member of the South African Police at any time?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I had been, yes, from the 8th of April 1947 until the 31st of December 1989.

MR VISSER: General will you give the Committee a resume of the main points of your sojourn in the South African Police, starting with April 1947.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: After training I was stationed at Somerset West in the Cape Province.  Subsequently I returned after a couple of months to Pretoria.  At the beginning of May 1941 I was stationed at the Detective Branch.  After my course of training I was transferred to the then Marshal Plein Police Station in Johannesburg.

MR VISSER: What course are you referring to?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: This is a training course for detectives.

MR VISSER: And Marshal Plein, in which division of the Police were you working?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I was attached to the Detective Branch.

MR VISSER: Yes, please do continue.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I worked through the ranks at that police station to the rank of lieutenant and then I was transferred to the Security Branch of the South African Police in 1963.

MR VISSER: And at which place did you serve in the Security Branch of the South African Police from 1963?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: From 1963 until the end of 1961 I served in Johannesburg at the Security Branch.
	As a major I was transferred to the Far North Transvaal Security Branch where I was the commanding officer with the base in Pietersburg.  This was the beginning of 1970 until the end of 1973.

MR VISSER: Just run through the rest of the main points please General.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: At the end of the 1973 I was transferred to the West Rand where I was the commanding officer of the Security Branch West Rand.  Subsequently I was transferred as district detective officer in 1975 to Pretoria, the district no.34.
	In 1976 I was transferred back to the Security Branch at the Head Office.
	In 1981 I became the commanding officer of the Northern Transvaal Security Branch with the base in Pretoria.
	At the beginning of 1982 I became the Chief Detective Officer in Soweto.  And in 1985, I think in August, I think I was placed in counter-insurgence at the Riot Control head office in Pretoria.  
	In 1987 or the beginning of 1988 I was transferred to Soweto as Divisional Commissioner of the South African Police there.
	At the end of 1989 I retired with the rank of Major-General.

MR VISSER: General just explain, if you will, from the end of 1987 you were stationed at Soweto?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes, end of '87 beginning of '88.  I cannot recall the exact month.

MR VISSER: And did you actually remain in that position until December 1989?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now you referred to counter-insurgency, the Counter-insurgency Unit of the South African Police and Riot Control where you were involved from August 1985, insofar as the evidence which implicates you before this Committee concerns that period would you please explain to the Committee what counter-insurgency, first of all, was all about?   What did you do?  And how were you placed in the general system as opposed to the Security Branch and other branches of the South African Police?  Would you just give some sort of indication of what counter-insurgency was all about.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Counter-insurgence and Riot Control was a uniformed branch of the force with bases all over the national borders, as the name would say, "insurgence", the intention was to "counter" insurgence.  Riot control was internal in the country and every section had a riot unit, every division had a riot unit at that time in the South African Police.

MR VISSER: General, what was your position in Counter-insurgency at the time of - and we're talking about 1986?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I was the second in command of Counter-insurgence and the Riot Control division of the South African Police Force.

MR VISSER: And who was the commanding officer?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: My commanding officer was Major General A J Wandrag.

MR VISSER: Now General, in particular, what was the relationship between Counter-insurgency and Riot Control and the Security Branch of the South African Police?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: There is no direct link between the two.  Insofar as Riot Control or Counter-insurgence could not give commands or instructions to the Security Branch.  The Security Branch had their own command structure and their own head office in Pretoria, that was the Security Branch.