Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: He said that there was going to be a mission.

<UNKNOWN>: nd did youask him anything about it?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, there was nothing I can ask.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE What do you mean there is nothing you could ask, you could askwhat the mission would be, surely you could ask where the mission would be?You could ask him all those questions? Were you not interested?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, the fact of the matter is that he didn't ask. Isn't that enough?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I think not, with respect Judge, he says he didn't ask, but thatis highly unlikely in the circumstances and I think he is not being truthfulon that issue.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is there any evidence that you have, thatcontradicts that?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, with respect, we can't presentevidence on that behalf, we are appearing for the victims in this matter, itis however unlikely and I think this is a point on which it can be suggestedthat this person is not making a full disclosure of what he knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you can argue that, although one view may be that it is likely that hewould not have been, I mean for security reasons, those details they might notbe disclosed to these guys beforehand, especially in operation of this nature.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Details may not have been disclosed, but I think it is highlyunlikely that he would not at all have discussed this mission that he says hewas aware of.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Maybe Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, that was part of his training,they were not trained to ask details about the operation, until when they weretold.

<UNKNOWN>: an I put this to you Mr Mkhumbuzi, Mr Makoma inthe statements which I earlier discussed with the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee, which he disputes,which he says were made to the police under interrogation, he said that he wastold by Vusi a long time, at least a week before the mission took place, thatthe mission was to be at a church in Kenilworth. Did he never tell you anythingof that nature?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, he did not.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Didhe tell you whether he knew or did not know anything about the mission?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Who ware you talking about?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr Makoma.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Please repeat your question.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did Mr Makomasay to you that he did not know any of the details of the mission, did he sayto you that he did know any of the details of the mission?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not ask him when he told me about the mission, so he could not tell meanything, what kind of a mission was it because I did not ask him.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why did you not ask, were you not interested?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I could notask him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why? The question is why?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: WhatI knew was that if you got an order, you had to follow that order, you don'thave to ask question concerning that order. You just have to listen to the personwho is giving you an order.

JUDGE WILSON: You haven't suggested for oneminute that Mr Makoma was giving you an order. I can understand you not questioningan order, but all you've told us is that Mr Makoma who is a friend of yours,who was training with you, told you that there was going to be a mission. Surelyyou would want to know from him, what sort of mission, what do we have to do?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not want to know more, because I knew that we were trainedfor such operations. I did not want to know any more details when he told me.

MSKHAMPEPE: What was Mr Makoma's function in your unit?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I knew Mr Makoma, he would come at home and visit me, but I am not aware ofhis function, but I knew that he was a member like

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , just like myself.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE You did however do your training together, so you knew him?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I knew him.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have ranks in

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I did not have a rank.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't havea rank, did Mr Makoma have a rank?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: He did not tell me ofhaving a rank, I don't think he had a rank in

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV DE JAGER: Washe on the same level, a soldier on the same level or was he on a higher level?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: We were in the same level according to my knowledge. He was notgiving orders to me, we were just advising each other.

SISI KHAMPEPE: WhenMr Mkhumbuzi, in your affidavit, that at paragraph 10, I think that is whatMr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge is struggling with, when you say you were instructed by Mr Makomato prepare yourself by getting yourself into physical position, what do youmean by that? If you were on par with Mr Makoma and he wasn't in a positionto be able to give you instructions or orders in your unit?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: When I mentioned this in my statement, I meant that we could get a message maybefrom Makoma, we could get a message through Makoma from the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander or theycan get a message through me from the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander, maybe it happened this waythat day.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, do carry on.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you.Well, the question is how did it happen? Not maybe how it happened, you saidin your statement specifically that it was Mr Makoma who came and told you tomake preparations for the operation, however now in your testimony you say thatyou didn't discuss the matter at all with Mr Makoma, now which one of the twois it?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Your question is not clear to me.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: In paragraph 10 of your statement, you say that it was about a week before theattack that Mr Makoma came to you and told you that the operation was goingto take place and to make preparations, you say he told you to prepare yourselfby getting into top physical condition and that you were to go and get weaponsfrom Umtata.

JUDGE WILSON: He doesn't say that. He instructed me to prepareinto top physical state, that is him, but he then goes on to say and more importantly...

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I beg your pardon, that is correct. I am sorry, I misreadthat. You do say however in your statement that Mr Makoma told you to prepareyourself for the operation and to get yourself into top physical condition.

<UNKNOWN>: ut in your evidence now, you say you didn't discuss the matter or talked toMr Makoma about the operation at all.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not necessarilyinconsistent you know. They did not talk about what they were going to do, hewas just told that he must prepare himself for whatever they were going to do.Isn't that what it really means?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, I asked him whenhe said that they didn't discuss the objectives, what they did then speak aboutregarding the operation. He said that they didn't really speak at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right. He just told him you better get ready.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I havehim saying Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge that the details of the actual operation were not discussed,but Mr Makoma gave him instructions to do certain things, which included gettinghimself into a proper physical condition for the mission.

<UNKNOWN>: ut the details ofthe mission
per se were not discussed by Makoma.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is his suggestion certainly. I submit however, that that is not consistentwith what he had been saying in his testimony.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Who is theperson who actually gave you the order to go to Umtata and collect the weapons?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I said it was Vusi.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It was Vusi, and whatexactly did he say to you?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: He told me to go to Umtata, toa certain house in Umtata, he gave me the address. There I would meet a personand that person would know why I was there.

<UNKNOWN>: gain, youdidn't ask him any reason for this?