Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Brigadier, could you then in thenext paragraph only read the sentence "I think the most significantpart..."
ANSWER:
  "The most significant part of this escalation was the attackin the very heartland of the Transkei Bantustan, Umtata, wherethe MK unit literally overran a police station, killing more than10 puppet police."
4b

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR DU PLESSIS 533 J H CRONJE

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier if you could page to page 59 andread the underlined part in the third paragraph?
ANSWER:
  "...with the entire oppressed population is involved ina mass militant struggle against the enemy, literally not collaboratingand rejecting that Government."

<UNKNOWN>: Could you then page to page 61, the third paragraph,only the underlined part?
ANSWER:
  "...spreading in our country, the rural areas, the farmsthemselves have become theatres of our operation in the Northernand the Eastern Transvaal."

<UNKNOWN>: Then Brigadier if you could page to page 65the second paragraph, the middle sentence beginning "neverbefore have we reached...", please read from there.
ANSWER:
  "Never before have we reached a situation in our countrywhere, even according to the admission of the enemy himself, theactivities of MK are escalating everyday.   Without exaggerationI would think that never before have we seen such unparalleledachievements by members of the people's army, the level of performanceof MK has improved even more."

<UNKNOWN>: Could you then page a couple of sentences downto the fourth paragraph from the top and read the underlined bit?
ANSWER:
  "We have for instance dealt with a lot of
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MR DU PLESSIS 534 J H CRONJE
   strategic installations of the enemy, we have attacked I thinkfor the third time Sasol.   We participated in the trade unionstruggle by attacking the offices of Anglo American, Gencor andother mining houses.   We have been attacking police stations,homes of police."

<UNKNOWN>: That which Mr Chris Hani said here would thathave been your view of the state of affairs during that time?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you now turn to page 66, there is a questionasked to Mr Hani.   Brigadier I want you to read from the second-lastparagraph.
ANSWER:
  "So the necklace was a weapon devised by the oppressedthemselves to remove this cancer from our society, the cancerof collaboration of the puppets.   We have our own revolutionarymethods of dealing with collaborators, the methods of the ANCbut I refuse to condemn our people when the mete out their owntraditional forms of justice to these who collaborate."

<UNKNOWN>: Do you understand this as a refusal to rejectthe necklacing approach of killing someone?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: Then on page 67, could you read the first paragraph?
ANSWER:
  "As far as I'm concerned the question of the necklace andhow it should be used belongs to all of us, to the ANC, to thedemocratic movement.  
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MR DU PLESSIS 535 J H CRONJE
   We should sit down and discuss amongst ourselves how we shouldmete out justice.   What is revolutionary justice.   One factis that where agents and collaborators are concerned, we shouldestablish where is it possible our own revolutionary course wherejustice should be meted out."

<UNKNOWN>: Would you see this as a reference to the sol-calledpeople's courts which existed in that time?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you then read the third-last paragraph,the underlined part.
ANSWER:
  "The necklace has been used against those...(end of side2)...

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, the last question at the bottomof page 67...
ANSWER:
  "...of the ANC applies equally to the attitude of bombingof beaches, cinemas and so on."

<UNKNOWN>: Could you read the response of Mr Hani on page68?
ANSWER:
  "It applies to the bombing of cinemas, supermarkets.  You know we have units on the ground inside the country, we havequick reaction units there.    Sometimes the enemy carries outacts of terror against our people, we should read carefully whatcomrade Zondo said after the bombing at Amanzimtoti - here wasa commander of the MK unit feeling very, very angry and
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MR DU PLESSIS 536 J H CRONJE
   emotionally disturbed by the assassination of our comradesin Maseru and feeling that it was his duty as commander of anMK unit to respond.   Of course in his response he chose a centrein Amanzimtoti and in the course of the bomb-blast the so-calledcivilians are caught in the process."

<UNKNOWN>: There is a reference to "so-called civilians",can you remember this bombing attack, were there any innocentpeople who died in this attack?

ANSWER: Indeed such people died.

<UNKNOWN>: Please read the next paragraph.
ANSWER:
  "We are going to come increasingly across a situation wherethe comrades, in anger, are going to react and deal with whitecivilians.   That is not the policy of the ANC.   One must rememberthat we are in a state of war."

<UNKNOWN>: Please let me stop you there.   Does this confirmyour testimony here with regard to the state of affairs then?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: Does this confirm that from the point of viewof the ANC and the liberation movement it was also their pointof view that it was a state of war?

ANSWER: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you continue, begin with "The ANCis clear..." in the middle of the second paragraph.
ANSWER:
  "I must repeat its position we want to deal with the enemypersonnel, the police, the army with the
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MR DU PLESSIS 537 J H CRONJE
  administration of the enemy, with the economic installations,with farms and farmers but in the process people are going toget angry and I think the world in general, and especially thewhites in SA, must reckon with the fact that the Botha regimesolely is responsible for this sort of situation.   We are notauthors of the situation and increasingly as we confront the enemy,as we deal with the enemy personnel, more and more white civiliansare going to be caught in the cross-fire.   I want to repeat thatwe are not responsible for this situation, we shall try as muchas possible to avoid civilian casualties, we are not a terroristmovement, we abhor terrorism.  We are a revolutionary movement."

<UNKNOWN>: What is said here, while one can understandwhat is being said with regard to innocent civilians, would yourimpression during that time have been that there were attackson military installations, on the homes of police officers andagainst the personnel of the military and the police.   Were theresuch attacks?

ANSWER: Yes as well as attacks against civilians.

<UNKNOWN>: That would have been my next question, whatwould your impression have been with regard to attacks againstinnocent civilians?

ANSWER: Innocent civilians did not fight in this war,I believe that this was entirely unacceptable to act in this manner.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you out of your own personal knowledgeremember any such attacks on innocent civilians, such as the ChurchStreet bomb?
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MR DU PLESSIS 538 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: I remember the Church Street bomb.   The bombingin McGoo's bar.

<UNKNOWN>: We will come to some statistics, I'm askingyou in general.   Mr Chairman it is close to 4 o'clock.   I haveon this aspect and I think it is necessary for me to deal withthis aspect here in cross-examination(?), I will deal with itmore fully in argument unless you say to me that I should notdeal with it in much further in re-examination and only deal withit in argument.   There are a few documents which I want to askBrigadier Cronje about but I don't want to lengthen the proceedingsunnecessarily.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether you consider the Brigadier'sopinion to be of great importance on the contents of this documentor similar documents?