Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR MALAN: Mr Chairperson, with your permission - or let me put it this way, I will begin with a question, when Mr Prinsloo went to you and said that you must be a witness there, was there certain consultation?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: We did consult just before we came in.

MR MALAN: Was it said to you that there is a dispute regarding the fact that Mr Oelofse did give the instruction or did not give the instructions?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I knew about the dispute, I do know about it.

MR MALAN: And did you discuss it with your legal representative or the applicants' legal representatives?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, we did not discuss it in the consultation, but I was aware of it.

MR MALAN: I am going to tell you why I am asking this because in your main evidence it was not put to you, and in the main evidence it was not put to you if you carry any knowledge of any such instruction coming from Gen Oelofse, and you never mentioned it in that manner.  The only reference to that was, or possible reference to it was where you said that he would try his luck in court, and even that was not a specific reference.
	Now, I would like to ask you directly would you have any knowledge, or have you got any knowledge of a direct order of Gen Oelofse on the evening of the 12th of December to kill people specifically on that evening, to kill people?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: If there was such an order, you wouldn't know because you were in the Free State?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean the structure, I am saying the structure of the AWB was such that you would not have known?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, I would not have known because the task forces were not under me, I didn't know about it, but what I did know was that a week before the Day of the Vow, these task forces would be sent in.
	That Mr Eugene Terreblanche told me but I did not know exactly which task forces, but I did know that it was task forces under Gen Oelofse.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: A week - or Mr Terreblanche told me that a week before the Day of the Vow, the task forces will be sent in, those that resorted under Gen Oelofse.  I did not know exactly what task forces would be sent in, but I did know that there would be task forces sent in.
	I was not there when the instruction was given to the task forces, but like you said, I was in the Free State at that stage, but I knew there was task forces sent in.  I was aware of that, because that Mr Terreblanche told me myself.
	Task forces would be sent in to attack the ANC, to kill people, murder people, and that was said.

CHAIRPERSON: He said, I am sorry, he referred - did he tell you, you are saying that he said it would be the people under Oelofse?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes.  He said, Gen Oelofse was in charge of the task forces, and he specifically said to me that the task forces of Gen Oelofse will a week before the Day of the Vow, start acting, that is what he said to me.

MR MALAN: Did you tell that to Mr Prinsloo when he consulted with you?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, I did tell him that in the consultation.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't say it in your evidence in chief?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You did not say it in your evidence in chief? In your evidence in chief you said that you were told that a week before the elections, a task force would be sent out to do certain things.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not say a task force would be sent out to go and kill people.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is the means of it.  I mean Mr Chairman, it does not help to send out people, they will go and kill people, that was what the whole thing was about.

CHAIRPERSON: They could have, the task force could only have gone out to plant bombs, and to blow up bridges, to blow up means of communication.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, we had specialised units.  Some units planted bombs, other units directed them more to the physical killing of people, and there is a difference there.  If you talk about the task force  under Gen Oelofse, you know we are talking about a task force that was trained and will be able to kill people.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying Gen Oelofse commanded a hit squad?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, on this point I would like to give the written instruction that this client gave me, I would like to make copies of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should we have that Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Well, it was exactly what - if the Committee doubts what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: I have no problems with what he said in the statement.

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, I would like to submit it, so that it can be included in the document.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, why should we take a previous consistent statement?

MR PRINSLOO: This is not a hearing, and in all cases where witnesses gave evidence, certain statements were made, so it is a fault of mine not to include this statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it taken under oath?

MR PRINSLOO: It was not under oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Now of what value is it to us?  We are interested in ...

MR PRINSLOO: The client can confirm it.  He can be asked to confirm it, it happened again with a previous application and that procedure was followed.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the purpose of handing in that statement?

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, this document that is in front of you now, was on the 20th of April of 1998.  It was done by the client and he came to me and said that he would give evidence.
	As it was in various other applications, that he will give evidence regarding this, and this is his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure I understand what the purpose of the statement is.  If it is - well ...

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, there are certain aspects that you asked him about, that I did not ask him or that I presented as direct evidence, but I would like to make it available to the Committee and it would place the Committee in a better position to ask questions to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that how evidence should be given?

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that how evidence is given?

MR PRINSLOO: Well, with respect Mr Chairperson, in the recent Commission's application that we held, some people did give evidence from statements, for example the Generals.
	Seeing this is a Commission and not a hearing, I can say that there are available documents, that people gave evidence in the High Court, applications that is in front of them, and it will have the same effect, but I will not continue in this line, but it is available.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could just clear up what we are busy with.  Mr Kriel, you will recall that I was saying to you, asking you about certain things and then you virtually said that Mr Oelofse was commanding people who it was their task amongst others, to kill?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What about you?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I was in charge of units that planted bombs.  I had cells that specialised in the planing of bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Not to kill people?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, not the same people.  The people I had, were people who were trained and specialised only in the planting of bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that Mr Oelofse was in command of a hit squad?