Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-01

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No I did not do any investigation.

MR BLACK: Just to get this issue clear for my own clarity, you say that you deployed initially various people mentioning Mr Pretorius, Kruger, Fuchs and van den Berg at strategic observation points when you first expected three persons to infiltrate South Africa from Botswana, do you recall that?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes that is correct.

MR BLACK: And nothing happened. Then the next day were the same persons deployed again at various strategic observation points?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And then in your evidence you say later on there was a third occasion when three people were expected to infiltrate on the 6th of July and that also did not materialise, is that so do you remember?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: When you refer to that as a third occasion was it the same three people you were always expecting?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct, the same three people.

MR BLACK: These names which you mentioned initially, Mr Lourens Pretorius, Joggie Kruger, Mr Fuchs and van den Berg, were they the only security personnel posted at observation points on the first occasion if I may refer to it as that?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: On the first occasion yes, as far as I can remember those were the only people.

MR BLACK: I realise this happened some time ago but these names and your remembering the names of the personnel and the exact observation points they were placed at, did you have to have reference to any records or did you, how do you recall that?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson, I remember it from my own memory.
	When this whole situation was discussed during the amnesty application, it came back to me that this is how this operation took place.

MR BLACK: Now you've heard the evidence that  one of the factors that aroused the suspicion of the Security Branch that the people who were going to infiltrate South Africa from Botswana, that those people were in fact South Africans and not illegal immigrants and probably members of Umkhonto weSizwe, was because some or one or more used a Black language when speaking to your informer, a Black South African language, I should imagine when speaking to your informer, did you hear that evidence?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes I heard that Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Do you recall any such information being given to you, passed on to you, let's put it that way?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes I remember.

MR BLACK: Now your evidence is that Captain Bourne was to stop these people and address them and warn them that they were surrounded and that they should give themselves up, is that correct?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes that is correct.

MR BLACK: Captain Bourne according to my information, is a British Citizen, or an Englishman.  Is that not so?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Was he familiar with any indigenous vernacular in this country other than English?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Not that I know of Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Now after you received this report-back at a later stage and you received this information that it had been determined from the wounded cadre that they were to meet a person wearing either a yellow shirt or a yellow scarf at the station, were you told who were the parties that had interrogated this cadre and obtained this information from him?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Coetsee, do you recall, oh yes I'm sorry, you say, do you recall who gave you this information about - was this the same Captain Dreyer?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: It was Captain Dreyer who gave it to me telephonically.

MR BLACK: Now you say that either a day or a few days after this operation you discussed the further details with persons who had participated in the operation?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: As to what was found allegedly in the combi, and at that discussion or at any time after this operation, were you ever handed a tape recording or a recording of events which took place either during the course of the operation or after the operation or in respect of an interview with the wounded party?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Now you're aware of the fact that while the, or rather you've heard the evidence of Mr Sehlwana, that while the wounded man was being questioned, interrogated, he was being tape recorded.  His answers were being tape recorded.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: I heard that he said that Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Right. So that has not been denied and would you have expected such a recording to have been handed over to either yourself or Colonel van der Merwe?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes Chairperson if something like that existed it would have been handed over to us.

MR BLACK: I just want to again put it to you just to clarify.  If what may be referred to as the third, no not the third incident, the incident which we are now concerned with involving the six parties, had you received information prior to going out there for the 10th of July, that all six infiltrators would be armed, had that been firmly confirmed?  Or did you simply suspect?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson that was information that we received that these people would be armed.

MR BLACK: From whom did you receive that information?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: From Koos van den Berg.

MR BLACK: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

ADV DE JAGER: In your application on page 27 paragraph 9 you say that,
"I believed and understood that all the actions against the enemy would have been justified bona fide and was also authorised".
	Now I do understand that this phrase occurs in all the applications and it is something that the legal advisors compiled, but all acts against the enemy was fully authorised, you understood it and you believed that, based on what, based on what information, did you believe that all actions against "the enemy" was authorised?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson, actions against the enemy that amounted to arrests and also incidents where people were killed under specific circumstances, I saw that as being justifiable action.

ADV DE JAGER: In this incident six people were killed.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: And you had just said that you see that in certain circumstances that you see that as justifiable actions, how did you see this?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: I saw it as justifiable action.

ADV DE JAGER: Why?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Because the first confrontation according to my information came from the side of the terrorists and there was no other recourse as to use violence.

ADV DE JAGER: Who gave you this information that it came from their side?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Colonel Erwee.  I will mention his name as the person, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Coetsee, Mr van der Merwe has already testified that there were previous occasions when arrests were made by members of your division of cadres who were crossing into the Republic, would you confirm that information?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes that is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were these arrests made with the assistance of informers?  I would imagine that the majority of them would have been.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct. Some of them would have been based on information from informers and others from incidental information.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Sehlwana actively involved in those arrests as well?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson no, I cannot give you an answer there, I don't think he was involved with other arrests.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was this the only incident where he was involved, if he was never involved in other arrests?