Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-31

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I'm referring to Kenny Shandu.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying Kenny Shandu?  Kenny Shandu was killed just outside the house of Vincent Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: No translated answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you putting that to him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm trying to get clarity on there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what he said he was killed at Sindumbele, he had a homestead just outside the township.  I don't recollect him having mentioned just outside the house of the other person.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I heard them interpret to me, the homestead of Shandu.  Did you say he was killed outside the house of Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: They are nervous in the township.  His home is just outside the township but near, Shandu's house is in the township.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this Shandu who was killed, killed in his own house?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct, he was killed in his home.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Referring to page 7 of your affidavit once more, the last paragraph thereof which I will quote for your convenience
"Whilst I admit I may have injured someone - now here comes the important part - I only shot in defence of me and the other occupants of the house".

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That was my aim, to protect myself and the people who were inside the house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this  your only aim, is it the only reason why you shot, to protect these people and nothing else?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The reason, it was because people were shooting into the house where I was in and I had to shoot back to protect people who were with me in the house at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct if I say that you would have shot at anybody who was shooting at the house,  you didn't have any particular person or persons in mind, you were to shoot against or at?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I didn't intend to shoot any particular person, I was shooting because I heard the gunshots from outside therefore to protect those who were inside the house, I had to shoot.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Put this way, the defence you're talking about in your affidavit, were you defend the occupants of the house against anything or something in particular?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was protecting them because they were attacked before therefore I had to protect them and I had to protect them even at the time when they were getting attacked.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You'll have to forgive me but I've got to put it on.  Did you have a particular target in your defence?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: It was at night therefore I couldn't see people who were outside.  I was shooting at the direction where I suspected that the bullets were coming from.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: I have certain questions which I would rather not ask and if you can supply the information we'd perhaps save a lot of time.  Have you got a copy of the charge of indictment that is being brought against him?

MR WILLS: In fact I've been requesting that for some time from the Prosecutors at the Regional Court.  The charge sheet has not been drawn up.  It is simply, I'm told that the charges are in respect of attempted murder.  I have, I think in my files I have an updated charge sheet, it has subsequently been changed but if you can bear with me I'll see if I can assist.

CHAIRPERSON: Well can I tell you what the difficulty that has come to my mind that I have been reading the papers and I have of these weapons before and it is described as a machine pistol.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in terms of our Firearm Act, machine weapons are classified differently from ordinary firearms and in the event of him applying for amnesty he would not be - if it was, if this weapon is, does fall into the category of automatic weapons, it would be a separate offence, a different offence from the ordinary offence of unlawful possession of a firearm and accordingly ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we ought to have more precise details as to precisely what he's applying for amnesty for.  That is to ascertain the nature of the charge.  I don't want to start asking him about the automatic weapon and the effect of it.  There is a very detailed description of the weapon in the papers.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you do that, find that out?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I can possibly answer that in that there is obviously by the evidence that's been supplied, the evidence by the docket, the evidence of the ballistics specialist, there's obviously the intention to charge and in respect of the more serious offence of a machine pistol.  I apologise for not actually making that clear in the application but clearly that is what is intended.  He is wanting amnesty in respect of the possession of the particular firearm which is classified as a machine firearm and if one looks at the ballistics report, my recollection is, is that it does work on automatic fire which certainly classifies it as a machine pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems you can't fire a single shot, you can fire automatic or semi-automatic.

MR WILLS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, I take it you have no objection to us giving proper details of what the firearm's ...(intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I've no objections Mr Chairman, I take the point.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  seemed to have arrived at a convenient time again.  How long should we take the adjournment for?

MR WILLS: I have simply one more witness in this matter and I - at the Committee's convenience as regards the length of the adjournment, I'm prepared to go ahead at any stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if we adjourn till 2, we'll finish easily by 4, won't we Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We will Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: (s.u.o).

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, may I request an indulgent.  There is just one question that I omitted to ask the Applicant.  It will take a minute. My learned friend has no objections, can I be permitted to do so?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Mr Mthembu, I want you to cast  your mind back from when you were outside the house and the police took you back into the kitchen of the house.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He took me back into the kitchen.

MR WILLS: Okay, can you tell me if you remember whether or not there were any lights on inside the house at that stage?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The place which we entered which had light was the lounge area.  In the kitchen the police light, light on the light - I don't know what kind of light.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that as you went into the kitchen the police switched the kitchen light on?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The kitchen light was off.  When we entered the kitchen, the police switched the lights on.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I call Mr Vusimusi Israel Mtule as the second witness for the Applicant.

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: (sworn states)

MR WILLS: Mr Mtule, you're a member of the ANC?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: That's correct, I'm an ANC member.

MR WILLS: You're also an active unionist in that you are employed by NUMSA in the Esetebe area as an organiser, is that correct?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: Yes, I'm being employed by the National Union of Metal Workers of South Africa as the Branch Organiser.

MR WILLS: How long have  you acted as a union official, or been employed as a union official?

VUSIMUSI ISRAEL MTULE: I was employed as the union official since 1989.

MR WILLS: Now can you just give the Committee some details of your ANC membership, when did you first become a member of the ANC?