Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you just mark it?   Mr Mabala, you have indicated that the car was parked sort of - is that on the side of the curb that you see there on the photo?

CHAIRPERSON: You say: "on the side of the curb", are you saying alongside the curb?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Alongside the curb, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That curb or the one on the other side of the road?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	You see a curb there, was the car parked alongside that curb - and I take it that there's another curb on the other side of the road, was it alongside that curb?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It was on the side of the road.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, but there's a curb there, was it parked alongside that curb?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, it was on the road along the curb of the pavement.

NORMAN ARENDSE: That curb and that pavement that we see on the photograph?  Is that the curb and pavement you're referring to?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot hear clearly.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The curb and the pavement that you've referred to, is it the one that we see on the photograph - the first photograph?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: This is the pavement but the car was parked on the road.

JUDGE WILSON: Next to that pavement that you can see?  Was the car parked on the same side of the road as the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, it was parked there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Arendse, can I interrupt for a moment?  Mr Prior I've had a chance at looking at this key that you've handed in and it seems to me if these photographs were available to us, it may save a lot of time.  There are a lot of photographs, they may show things that counsel want to refer to.  Is there any possibility of getting them?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'll endeavour to have them available at the tea adjournment.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I've actually had a look at all the photographs, they were made available to me by counsel who appeared at the criminal trial and I agree I think it will be useful if all of them could be made available and then we could use this key ...[inaudible]
	We're clear now that the car was parked there alongside that curb alongside that pavement that we see on that photograph, are we clear about that now?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, when the car pulled up there, who got out first and when did you get out or did you get out?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It is Luyanda who got out first, I was the last one to get out.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Where were you sitting in the car?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was sitting at the back seat behind the driver, I was the second one from Jantjie behind the driver.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Who was sitting in front?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Maxeba was the driver, Madasi was sitting next to Maxeba.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And at the back?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Luyanda, Sibeko, myself and Jantjie - there were four in the back seat.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you see where Gqomfa went when he got out - you say he got out first, did you see where he went and could you indicate on - we're still on that photograph, could you indicate where he went and where you saw him if in fact you saw him?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Gqomfa went towards the right, Monwabisi on the left, that's all I saw.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is Monwabisi, is him and Jantjie the same person that you're talking about?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Those doors that you see there on the first photograph, they are closed as you see them there, can you remember whether they were closed as you see it there or were they open?  Can you remember?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't remember, I cannot remember.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you remember whether Gqomfa and Monwabisi or Jantjie - one and the same person, can you remember whether they entered the tavern at all?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't remember Sir.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you remember anybody entering the tavern?  Did you enter the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: As I said, I was meant to throw or launch a hand grenade - I saw Madasi going in.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And when you say you saw him going in, can you indicate - still on that photograph, where did you see him go in?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, Sir.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, can you indicate on the photograph?  There's a double door there and then you see a door that's open, where did Madasi go in?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: He entered on the small door, the one small door on the picture.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The one that's open?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you expect him to go in?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I was the one who was meant to launch a hand grenade, Madasi then went in - I was not expecting him to go in, that's why I didn't launch the hand grenade.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you launch the hand grenade at any other stage?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, when I was taught, I used to launch it when I was taught to launch hand grenades.

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, no sorry, I meant that evening or during the operation or after the operation, did you launch it at all that evening?  I'm sure you must have launched one before.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, not that particular night.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you see Gqomfa and Jantjie, did you see them shooting?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: As I said Gqomfa and Jantjie were by the second door, I heard shots - I did not see what they were doing, I just heard the sounds from their weapons.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you remember which weapon Gqomfa was firing with?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot remember now, I had to focus on my position at the time.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you able to see Madasi - you've told us that he went inside and that you didn't expect that but from where you were standing, could you see him firing?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't be sure, it was at night however there were shots being fired, there were bangs the whole time.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Tell us, where were  you - you said you got out of the car last, where were you positioned?  Is it possible to indicate - I know there's no car there, but is it possible to indicate where you were positioned on that photograph?

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Immediately Mr Chairman, he got out of the car and perhaps he could also tell us whether he moved his position after that.
	You got out of the car last, right?

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you go to when you out of the car?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was meant to take my position by the door, I saw Madasi - after I saw Madasi, I looked the side.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Which side?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I want to clarify this, the principles I have learnt as a soldier are such that as Madasi went inside and next to the targets - the victims, I was left looking the other side behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what he's saying Mr Arendse?  When he says he was looking behind, where's that, do you know?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I think Mr Mabala, if you could just tell us a bit more, where exactly were you looking?  You were looking behind you, is there anything in particular you were looking at?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, Madasi was going towards the target - if you're going to carry out an operation, you don't just look at the victims or the target, you have to look all around and see if we are not going to attack.  I had to look to defend the other comrades to see if there's no-one wanting to attack us as the unit.  I don't know if you're understanding what I'm trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that let's just clear this up please, I'm getting a bit confused.  Where was Madasi when you got out of the car, where was he?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Madasi left the car before me first, he went straight ahead.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: He went towards the second door.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you then go towards that door as well?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I did not Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw Madasi enter the door?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes Sir, I did see him.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you enter the door after he did?