Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

DIRK COETZEE: That's all that happened normally in the security police Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Coetzee.  The references Mr Chairman, Mauritius: page 29 of Volume 3.  In the London evidence: also Volume 3 page 86 to 87.  The same Volume, page 95 to 96.  Page 100.  In the application Mr Chairman: page 93 of Volume 2 - 93 of Volume 2, 94 of Volume 2, 99 of Volume 2, 103 of Volume 2.
	And may I interject by saying that up to this stage, nothing is mentioned about any assault and you will be able to check that from those references.  Thereafter Mr Chairman for the first time, in evidence before you, at page 111 Volume 3 says:
"He was illegally detained"
	And then really at page 134 - 111 if Volume 3 - no, is it Volume 3, it must be Volume 2.  Anyway I may be making a mistake with my note on Volume 3, suddenly when you ask Justice Pillay it just - I'm just wondering whether it shouldn't be Volume 2 - if you'll just make a question mark.  
	And then 134 - I also have Volume 3 here, where he speaks of seriously assaulted.  If it's Volume 3 then obviously Mr Chairman I was incorrect in saying that it was in evidence before the Committee.
	Then Mr Erasmus denies that you ever gave him money Mr - well, money from a stolen car Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: I never gave it to Mr Erasmus, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It was Mr van Rensburg, wasn't it?

MR VISSER: No, the evidence Mr Chairman - in fact I can give you the references again.  I think we did in Mr Erasmus' give the references.  Mr Coetzee alleged that he went down to Lady Grey with R7 000 which he got from a sale of a stolen Kombi which he handed to Gerrit Erasmus.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I beg your pardon.

DIRK COETZEE: No, I did not Mr Chairman, I said he accompanied Nick van Rensburg and I gave it to Nick van Rensburg.

MR VISSER: Well, whatever.  Mr Erasmus denies that.
	Mr Chairman, I believe I'm through.  If you will allow me a short moment please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, insofar as your evidence is in conflict with the evidence of the applicants here, I put it to you that their evidence is correct and yours is wrong.

DIRK COETZEE: That's not true Mr Chairman, they're three quarters to the truth.  I was hoping that they will their 100% all the way.

MR VISSER: Yes, the problem is just where one falls through the hole of that quarter you see Mr Coetzee but be that as it may.  You see I also want to put to you that you're glossing over your mistakes which you have made in the past especially people whom you have implicated innocently in serious crimes is not something which you say is insignificant - an insignificant mistake, it's a very serious matter Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: I've never implicated people in serious crimes without putting the record straight as soon as possible thereafter, if I realised it wrong, it was a slip of the mind.

MR VISSER: Yes.  In this case of Kondile you're not prepared to say: "I may be making a mistake about Deetlefs and Rorich and I really can't tell so I'm withdrawing what I'm saying about them".

DIRK COETZEE: I do not make mistakes like that.

MR VISSER: You don't no.  You see the point about that Mr Coetzee is that you're making that mistake on your evidence on hearsay evidence.

DIRK COETZEE: Well, that was what was told to me by Mr van Rensburg, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've kept to my promise, only just.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman I don't know if there - there are other interested parties here, I assume that my re-examination should - I don't know what the counsel for Neethling intend doing ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that the others are involved in what has happened up to now.

MR JANSEN: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then I'll ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Except it's not really re-examination because he didn't lead him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I mean I'm affording you this opportunity to put questions to him.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  It's a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Merely arising out of what has transpired.

MR JANSEN: Yes, I didn't lead him on the assumption that we didn't want yet another record of a repetition.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR WITZ: Thank you Mr Commissioner.  I represent General Neethling.  Advocate Mannie Witz instructed by Attorney Adolf Malan.  In view of what you told us on Monday together with the Committee, I've received instructions from my instructing attorney together with my colleague Advocate Cilliers who went home already on Monday and Tuesday respectively.
	We need to know and get some ruling in regard to the application which is presently before you, whether or not and what the position is in regard to Lieutenant General Neethling who is interests I'm here to represent.
	We received a notice from my learned friend Mr Steenkamp who is the evidence leader of the Amnesty Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in terms of Section 19(4), which reads very simply:
"To General Loot ...[indistinct] Neethling, Hatfield. That an application for amnesty of H du Plessis, van Rensburg, Raath and Erasmus in terms of Section 18 will be considered and heard at the Old Mutual building, 106 Adderly Street, on the 9th to the 13th of February at 09H00.
Take note as further that as a person interested in the application you has a right to be present.  You are implicated in: No1"
I'm just shortening it Mr Chairman.
"The abduction, killing and disposing of Sizwe Kondile"
	Now, without going into argument and just looking briefly at the evidence, I need some type of ruling in order to protect the interests of my client because it's clear in what you have before you that none of the four applicants that are mentioned have in any way either mentioned or implicated Lieutenant General Neethling in either the abduction, killing and disposing of Sizwe Kondile.  
	And in view of what Mr Coetzee has said today it's clear that if the knock-out drops were in fact administered by some other person, this had no part at all in either the abduction and/or killing and/or disposing of Sizwe Kondile so I need to know my position in this regard Mr Chairman. It is important in order to protect the interests of my client. 
	We did receive the notice, that is the reason that we are here and I need some type of ruling - possibly after the tea adjournment because it might lead to further complications in this matter in regard to availability of my instructing attorney, the counsel who is in the matter with me, Advocate Cilliers and whether or not we would need an opportunity to consider the matter to cross-examine Mr Coetzee - which would be at length, in relation to his allegations.  
	I know it was in unusual circumstances in which you've allowed Mr Coetzee to answer questions in essence relating to this matter.  And if possible Mr Chairman, after the tea adjournment you could give some ruling in regard to the admissibility or weight of evidence if at all, of Mr Coetzee in relation only specifically to my client, Lieutenant General Neethling.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I can tell you now, Mr Neethling had been implicated by Mr Coetzee in his application for amnesty in earlier proceedings.  I am also informed that notice was served on your client or he was notified that it was being said by Mr Coetzee that your client had supplied him with - whether you call them knock-out drops or poisons, but that is what was being said about your client Mr Coetzee.  Today this is a repetition and there is nothing new that has emerged since the previous hearing in that regard.  I do not know whether your client has in any way applied for amnesty.  I don't know whether he's involved in any other matters for which he has applied for amnesty, maybe you will tell if he has.