Amnesty Hearings — Witbank — 2000-01-31

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: According to the reconnaissance that we have done before, we could see that their cars start, because in the area that the car was parked, because it was above written, parking reserved for police vehicles only, it would start filling up from half-past 7 upwards, but if you go there during the day, you will find that these cars, they are not there, they have gone out maybe for duties or whatever, so we thought the appropriate time would be when they are reporting in order to get whatever task that they are supposed to be doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbethe?

MR MBETHE: Just one more question.  Did you know the magnitude of the bomb?  Was it clear to you yourself as to how big an area this bomb would damage if it went off?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Well, the problem is the explosive, it can not be detonated, because it depends whether it's a built-up area or it's an open area or whatever, but at least you should have had more or less knowledge as to if we put this bomb here, this area, this circumference of the area would at least be affected.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I wouldn't be exact on that one.

MR MBETHE: Do you agree with me that the place where the bomb was placed is inside town and it's between buildings, or there are buildings surrounding the area?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR MBETHE: Not only is there a building as you have already stated, that was used by the Security Forces, but there were other buildings that were in the area?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR MBETHE: Now what were your - what did you think about that, that in other buildings where there would be normal and casual people, in those buildings, what did you think of it, did you try to possibly warn those people and in the other buildings that look, something like this might happen?  Could you have done that?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: That wouldn't indeed have been possible.

MR MBETHE: You wouldn't have warned the people of that, even if you wanted to, it wouldn't have been possible. As it pleases the Committee, Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbethe.  Mr Schultz?

MR SCHULTZ: Thank you Madam Chair.

MR SCHULTZ: Mr Nyalunga, just to go back to your infiltration into the country during 1987, did I hear correctly that you had joined this Special Op Unit in which country?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Maputo, Mozambique.

MR SCHULTZ: And were you infiltrated from Mozambique into South Africa?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No.  Is this relevant to the case?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to respond to that Mr Nyalunga?  We will determine the relevance or otherwise of that question.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No from Botswana.

MR SCHULTZ: So you were infiltrated from Botswana.  At that stage did you go directly as you said to Vosloorus where you became a member of the underground unit?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: When you came to Vosloorus, did you know this person known as Thabang already, or did you only meet him there?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: We infiltrated together with him.

MR SCHULTZ: So the two of you came together from Botswana.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: What was the extent of your training regarding bombs, the building and the placing of bombs?  Did you receive any specific training in that regard?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes, I did.

MR SCHULTZ: What did it consist of?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Engineering military ...(indistinct)

MR SCHULTZ: Were you taught how to wire up a bomb, to put it that way?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: Were you also taught how to connect a bomb to a timing device?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: I didn't quite catch Thabang's real name, what was his real name?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Kholile Sam.

MR SCHULTZ: And Thabang was a pseudonym.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Thabang was a pseudonym.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Would you kindly repeat his real name again.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Kholile Sam.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Kholile ...

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Kholile Sam.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sam.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR SCHULTZ: Now did you and Thabang both undergo the same training with regards to specifically the making of bombs and the placing of bombs?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I cannot confirm that because we trained during different time, different countries.

MR SCHULTZ: Now the underground unit to which you belonged in Vosloorus, how many members did it consist of?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think I've state, myself and Thabang.

CHAIRPERSON: Two.

MR SCHULTZ: Now you are aware that two persons were found guilty of 70 charges relating to the specific bomb explosion during 1990, Joseph Vilakazi and Ramuede Mabuya.  What was their involvement in all the circumstances surrounding the explosion of the bomb?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think I've explained here what happened on the day of the explosion of the bomb.  They are involved as far - because they were people who were handled by Thabang as the Commander of which I did not know anything about them.  There are things that he did, that I did not have to know about them.

MR SCHULTZ: So the way, if I understand you correctly, the way in which it worked was that you knew as few people as possible.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes and besides, I'm from the area, I had to play a low profile.  He's not from that area.

MR SCHULTZ: You did not for instance know that the two persons who were found guilty as I stated, were the persons who collected the components of the bomb from the so-called dead letter box where the components were kept?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I was not there ...(indistinct) do that.

MR SCHULTZ: You've never met these people?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No, I've known them, I've seen them, but I didn't know they are involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know about their involvement with regard to the collection of ...

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No I was not aware with whom he went to collect those things, I only learned of it later.

MR SCHULTZ: Do you know what or where Thabang is?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: He's dead.

MR SCHULTZ: Do you know when he died?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: When was that?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It was November 7, 1998.

MR SCHULTZ: Do you know how he died?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I heard recently there were people applying for amnesty for his death.

MR SCHULTZ: Was he killed by the police?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: So it was confirmed here in this hearing.

MR SCHULTZ: Is that what you heard?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: That's what I heard.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, was it 19?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: 1988.

JUDGE DE JAGER: 1988.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR SCHULTZ: You said that you went on a reconnaissance with Thabang once or twice to Witbank, do I understand that correctly?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: Now was it once or was it twice?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It's more than once.

MR SCHULTZ: Was it more than twice?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It could have been more than twice, but it's more than once.

MR SCHULTZ: If you have to speculate about how many times exactly, how many times would you state that you went on reconnaissance to Witbank?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I cannot remember exactly, it could have been thrice or four times.

MR SCHULTZ: Now every time when you went on reconnaissance, was it just - did you every time go together with Thabang, or did you go with different people?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the evidence is specific that he went with Thabang.

MR SCHULTZ: Thank you Madam Chair.  Now, can you explain exactly what you did when you did this reconnaissance of the area where the bomb was to be placed?  How did you go about it?