Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, Chairperson, I believe during consultation and awaiting your turn, we must have discussed the matter, which would be normal, but word for word, I cannot tell you why it is so.

MR MOERANE: Let's come to the incident itself.  Now, you took up position at the side of the road in a concealed fashion, I take it?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And the vehicle approached and didn't stop at the predetermined spot.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That was the second incident?

MR MOERANE: Yes, we are now talking about the second incident only.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR MOERANE: It stopped at a distance which, at the Piet Retief inquest you estimated at between 20 and 30 metres. In your present application you estimate it about 30 to 40 metres.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: But could you point out a distance, or is there not enough space here?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, I would say approximately to the doors.  It may be somewhat closer but it would be approximately that distance.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know Mr Moerane, but that would probably be 30 to 40?

MR MOERANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say?

MR MOERANE: Yes, 30 to 40.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: ...(indistinct) (microphone no on)

MR MOERANE: Then what happened?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Col de Kock immediately ran to the vehicle.  I followed him, so did the other members.  Mr Theron had a light which followed afterwards, he didn't shine the light from the beginning.  The front door of the kombi went open and a person emerged with an AK47 gun in his hands.

MR MOERANE: You saw this?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, I saw this.

MR MOERANE: Because of the light that was shining on him?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, the lights were not yet switched on.  The lights of the vehicle were on and one could see it clearly.
When Mr Theron approached, he shone the light.  This was all a matter of seconds and the shooting commenced.

MR MOERANE: Yes, well that is very vague, the shooting began.  Col de Kock was right in front.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: If I recall correctly, yes.

MR MOERANE: He ran first?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Where was Mr Vermeulen?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot place where he was, I didn't stop to see where everybody was positioned.

MR MOERANE: Where was Mr Nortje?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot say at this stage.

MR MOERANE: What happened when this man came out of the vehicle?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: As I've already stated, Chairperson, if I recall correctly this person fired a shot.  It may have been simultaneous with Mr de Kock's fire, after which the other members and I also began shooting at this person and at the other persons within the kombi.

MR MOERANE: Well, at whom was this person from the kombi firing?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot say.  To me it appeared as if his gun was aimed at Manzini's side, but it may also have been more to Mr de Kock's side.  I'm not entirely certain about that.

MR MOERANE: Where was Manzini at the time?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: He ran around the front of the vehicle.  He must have been on the side of the plantation at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: And could you give an estimate of the distance between Mr de Kock and the person who exited the vehicle with the AK47 when you heard the first shot?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, I would then have to speak of and this would be speculation, perhaps 3 metres.  It may have been closer, it may have been further, but I'm not certain of the exact distance.

MR MOERANE: This would have happened right in front of Col de Kock, not so?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: So if it happened, he would have seen it?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, I believe he must have seen it.

MR MOERANE: Well, you've heard his evidence.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, I heard it.

MR MOERANE: I put it to you that this story of the person shooting is a fabrication.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, it isn't.

MR MOERANE: A fabrication which you have carried over from the Piet Retief inquest.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It is not so.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Moerane, before you move off this point, just a bit of clarity, Mr Pienaar.  You say that this person shot towards Manzini's side, that's what you said?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is how it appeared to me.

ADV GCABASHE: Just help me with this.  Manzini ran around the front of the vehicle and into the plantation.  De Kock, I presume, approached from the back of the vehicle, because they had been travelling forwards, so you were behind them?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And when this person got out, he shot towards Manzini, rather than towards de Kock, who was in front of him, is this what you're saying?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I said that at that stage when Mr de Kock ran forward, there wasn't any light on the vehicle, so I cannot say whether the person was aware that Mr de Kock was approaching from the side, that is merely speculation.  But certainly, when he drew near, he must have become aware of him, but I believe that his attention was fixed on Manzini who was suddenly running away.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Just to finish this off.  I thought that you had said that by the time the shooting started, Theron's light was on, that's the note I had, so by the time anybody, whoever started shooting, there was enough light, not just light from the front.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.  When the shooting began, when everybody began to shoot, Mr Theron shone the light on the vehicle, that is when all the members moved closer to the vehicle.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet this man shot backwards, rather than forwards, with the lights on?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: If my judgement was correct, he fired and then Mr de Kock fired and that is when the light went on.  That is why I have said that I believed that this person's attention was fixed on Manzini and he didn't notice the members moving in from the side.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Moerane, there's just one point that I'm not clear on.  You said that the instruction to Sgt Manzini was to get out the vehicle and run around it?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Around the front.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why was that the instruction, because that would mean that he'd have to get out the right side of the vehicle, then run in front of the vehicle where the lights are shining on him and then across the road, whereas if he'd got out the vehicle and just ran at right-angles to the vehicle, as fast as he could into the bush, wouldn't that have been more efficient and safer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, because then he would have been in the line of fire.  If the members were on the left-hand side and they were firing towards the right, then he would have ended up straight in the line of fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOERANE: So shooting at this vehicle was definitely part of the planning?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that all the occupants of this vehicle were shot through their heads?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot recall where the shots were.  There were various bullet wounds in everybody.

MR MOERANE: According to the post mortem examination report, they all died of head injuries, brain damage.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is possible.

MR MOERANE: Can't you remember that according to the post mortem reports and the finding of the Inquest Magistrate?   Mr Chairman, this is in bundle 5 on page 279 to 280, in the middle of the page starting with,
"In the case of Nkosinati Bruce Mshwayo, the cause of death is destruction of skull and brain"...(intervention)

MR PRINSLOO: What page number?

CHAIRPERSON: It's 341 - 279 to 280, bundle 5.