Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: Yes.  All right.  This time you referred to a Nelson that was in the car when Mamome arrived to pick you up and I take it that refers to Mr Nelson Ngo.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did you, did, was Mr Ngo present when the instructions were given, according to you, by Coetzee and/or Shaw?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I repeated that he was not present.  He came with Mamome.

MR VISSER: All right.  Did you explain to him what you were about to do?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

MR VISSER: Do you believe that Mamome might have explained to him what you were about to do?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know that.

MR VISSER: And you told us that you left Ngo inside the car, apparently to look after the motor car, when you went to bomb the house.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: Was he close enough from where you were bombing the house to see what you were doing there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, he was at a distance.

MR VISSER: Are you saying he could not see what was going on?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Not at all.

MR VISSER: You got out of the car with petrol bombs, did you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: And Ngo would have seen it, would he, would he not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he saw them.

MR VISSER: All right.  So, he must have known that you were going to petrol bomb something.  Would that be a fair assumption?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, after he saw the petrol bomb, maybe he had that kind of an idea.

MR VISSER: And when you came back to the car did he ask you what you went to do?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He asked Mamome.

MR VISSER: And  (intervention) ...

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I replied to him and said we bombed Jani Mohapi's house.

MR VISSER: Right.  You said to him that you bombed Jani Mohapi's house.  Are you quite certain of that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.  Yes, I told him that.

MR VISSER: Is there no possibility that you are today mistaken and that you, in fact, told him that you had bombed Max Makubalo's house?
	I see Commissioner de Jager has lost himself in his papers.  I am referring, first of all Mr de Jager, to page 146, paragraph eight.  That is the amnesty application for the petrol bombing of City Mzuzwana's house.  The witness has now told us that when enquiring as to what they went to do he told Ngo that they had bombed Jani Mohapi's house.  I am now asking him whether he may not be making a mistake in that he might have told him that they had bombed Max Makubalo's house.  The reason for that is obvious, because Mr Ngo gave that evidence.  Well, he gave evidence that he was told by Motsamai that it was not Max Makubalo's house, it was City Mzuzwana's house.  
	So, the only question is this.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I told him that I bombed Jani Mohapi's house.  Maybe that is him who made a mistake (intervention) ...

MR VISSER: All right.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: ... to talk about Max Makubalo.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And he told us, that is Mr Ngo, that here at the hearing you told him that he had made a mistake in his application by referring to Max Makubalo, because it was really City Mzuzwana's house that you bombed.  Would that be correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I repeat, I told him that I did not say, I did not say what he says I said.

MR VISSER: So, are you saying that you dispute what he told the Committee?  Is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I dispute that, because maybe he made a mistake.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you discuss this at this hearing, at this, last time when the hearing took place, did you discuss it and did you then point out that he made a mistake?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you point this mistake to him out or that, when did you tell him, in fact, you bombed Jani's house and, or City's house and not Jani's house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When we returned to the car, that is when I told him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell him it was City's house then or did you tell him it was Jani's house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I told him that it was Jani Mohapi's house.  I did not want to tell him the truth about that we bombed City Mzuzwana's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you ever tell him that you bombed City's house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, Sir, I never told him.

MR VISSER: Now, the next burning question is why did you not want to tell Ngo that you had bombed City Mzuzwana's house, Mr Motsamai?  What was the reason for that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The reason is that he came with Sergeant Mamome and he never received instructions that we should go with him there, because when we received the instructions it was the both of us, that is myself and Mamome.  That is the reason which made me not to tell him directly which house we bombed.

MR VISSER: I suggest to you that is no reason at all, because you then go and you lie to him about the house by telling him you bombed, petrol bombed Jani Mohapi's house which you knew to be untrue and you are a person who does not like lying you told us.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not like lies, but I did not want to tell him directly.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, why did you lie to Mr Ngo on your own evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained already.  I did not want to tell him the truth that we went to that particular house.

MR VISSER: Yes, but what you have not explained is the reason for not wanting to tell him the truth.  Did you just lie to him because of the sake of lying or was there some motivation?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In terms of my own perspective, I was hiding that information from him so that he should not know exactly where we went.  I think that is the only explanation I am able to give.  I do not want that it should be emphasised that I am liar, because even your clients are telling a lie.

ADV DE JAGER: He should not know where you went, but he should know that, in fact, you have bombed a house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he would know that we bombed the house.

ADV DE JAGER: And now you are telling him you have bombed a different house from the one that you really bombed?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I gave him a wrong information.

ADV DE JAGER: And you told him, in fact, that you bombed a member of the Mohapi families house?  Is that correct?  Jani Mohapi's house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is how I formulated that, but we went to City Mzuzwana's house.  When I entered the car I told him that we went to bomb Jani Mohapi's house.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know that he had a quarrel with the Mohapi family?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He did not have any fight with the Mohapi family.  He, Mohapi was involved in politics.  Those people are holding the fact that Ngo had a clash with Mohapi's family.  If he had a clash with the Mohapi family, I know him that he is short-tempered, he could have went there with a gun and would shoot those people to show that he was not in that position of fighting with that family.  He was going, he kept them at an armslength and doing his work as members of the security branch.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he not at school have a quarrel with Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, but he was not fighting directly with White Mohapi.  They were students and because of that mistake by the officer who is, who was then Warrant Officer Erasmus then, when they knew that he was an informer that is why White Mohapi started fighting with Ngo.  They were members of Cosas.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say he is a very short-tempered person that could easily shoot somebody?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, if he had a conflict with them or a clash with them.

ADV DE JAGER: Why do you say that?  Why should he easily somebody if you have got a conflict with him, on what basis?