Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: Do you remember seeing the one Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala during the period October '87 to January '88?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, I would think that's the period when Sicelo was not staying with his parents.

MR RICHARD: Where was he staying at that time?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well at first after he was released and I think what he said in court was that he was in possession of a firearm because he was defending himself and at that time when he arrived in our offices there were also other white volunteer workers and a lot of people were sympathetic to his case and a lot of people offered hiding place for him so he would stay in various places until he got a stable place with Joseph Tlhwale.

MR RICHARD: When did that place become stable, before or after October?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: It's after October.

MR RICHARD: And before that was he staying with various other people?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now you say the second applicant, that's Mr Tshabalala, who was the third applicant to give evidence, that's the confusion, came on various occasions.  Do you remember how often after October '87 he came?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well I don't know how often.

MR RICHARD: More than once, more than five times?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: It's more than once but I cannot count how many times.

MR RICHARD: That's fair enough, now were you aware of any particular relationship between Humphrey Sipho Tshabalala and the deceased?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well I don't know of any relationship but what I know that when he came to the office he would sometimes talk to him and sometimes they would walk out and after some few minutes Sicelo would come back to the office.

MR RICHARD: Did you see anyone else besides Mr Tshabalala?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, the second applicant.

MR RICHARD: When did you see him?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well as I've said, many of them I saw at the time when after Sicelo was released and he was, you know, away from the township.

MR RICHARD: Was that before or after October?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: That was after.

MR RICHARD: Now according to my instructions an event happened in January 1988.  Do you remember any event on or around the 20th of that month?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: That was when Sicelo was detained at Khotso House.

MR RICHARD: What happened?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: We were busy working in the office and at Khotso House they used to have an alarm system.  When the police came they would press it and then it would ring in all the offices then we would know that is the police.  So what happened on that day is that the security guard saw the police that entered through, you know, the front door and he didn't see that some of the police entered through the basement so Sicelo tried to run out using the stairs so that's when he was, you know, arrested by the police and they came with him and joined others who were already in the office.

MR RICHARD: Now how did the police identify him?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: They identified him as a person who had appeared on the television.

MR RICHARD: Were you aware of the television documentary?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes I was.

MR RICHARD: And also aware of various other broadcasts with Dutch Television, CBS News - I mean radio news?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, a lot a media came to the office and they would say that we want maybe a child or a family and we would be the one to identify such families and you know, approach them first if they feel like, you know, being interviewed.

MR RICHARD: Now for how long was he detained on that occasion which started on the 20th January?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: If I'm not mistaken he was released the next day.

MR RICHARD: Now I know you haven't got a bundle of the papers before you - I'm indebted to my colleague - but between pages 58 and 66 there is a selection of newspaper clippings relating to the deceased and his detention in January.  Are you aware of them?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now particularly, think carefully before you answer the question, in and during October 1987, the year before, were there any similar press reports?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Before October '87?

MR RICHARD: Around October '87, specifically in October '87.

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I don't quite recollect.

MR RICHARD: Would you recollect if there had been newspaper clippings?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now on his release did the deceased return to the DPSC offices?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I remember the last incident because immediately after the police have identified him they searched the office and Audrey Coleman said to me that I should take money from the petty cash and go buy Sicelo some toiletries so I went out to a shop opposite Khotso House about that and I gave it to him and I also gave him a track suit.

MR RICHARD: Now after he was released did he come back to the office and talk to you?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes he did.

MR RICHARD: Now if you turn to page 63 of the bundle in front of you?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: 63.

MR RICHARD: It's a newspaper clipping.  Unfortunately it's undated as far as I can see.  There you will see two columns
	"DPSC Says" and  Police Says"
What was that about, what was going on in there?  Do you know whether he signed a statement while in police custody?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: As I say that I don't quite recall it but I remember that after his release, it's actually Audrey Coleman who was taking his statement and I was laughing at some of the things that was said by the police when they released him.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember what the police said?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: The thing that made me to laugh was that they said they were releasing him to his grandmother which they were referring to Audrey Coleman and they said that
"Your grandmother talks too much."

MR RICHARD: Now when did you last speak to the deceased?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: On Saturday, I think it was the 22nd.  He phoned me at home in Duduza, it was five to eleven and he said to me that he wanted to discuss with me something that was very confidential and I said to him that I was on my way to town and from Duduza which is in Nigel next to Springs, it would take me another one hour to get to Johannesburg because what he wanted was that we should meet at the DPSC office and I asked him that can't that wait until Monday because I don't have any money and I have to go to town and he said well, he seemed you know doubtful and he said okay.

MR RICHARD: Now there's been talk about a certain thing that he wore on his belt.  Were you aware of anything that he wore on his waist belt?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes I was aware because he was listening to that while he was working.

MR RICHARD: What was it?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I think something like a radio that one could listen to alone.  You know you could put something like this and then have it wherever in your body.

MR RICHARD: And so if somebody called it a radio cassette or a walkman?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well I'm not sure whether it was using cassettes or it was just a radio.

MR RICHARD: Now what did it look like?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well it was a square shaped, the length was not, you know, so much, it was like this but a little bit bigger than this.

MR RICHARD: What colour was it?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Black.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever have any reason to doubt that it was anything but a radio or a cassette player?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No I never doubted that because he was using it in the office while people were coming in and out, everybody was seeing that.

MR RICHARD: Now at any stage did you ever have any reason to believe that he might have been a police informer?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

MR MAPOMA: No questions for this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Sir, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI