Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR MASEKO: You wouldn't tell the administrator that you needed certain money.  If there was a reason or a mission that needs money, you would go to the administrator and ask him and you tell him how much money do you want and the reason for that and he would understand and he would give the money to you.
ADV. SANDI: After, sorry Mr Prior, just a question that goes very closely with this.
	Mr Maseko, after this incident of robbery did you go back to the administrator to ask for money which you would have to use in any operation?

MR MASEKO: Let us correct this term robbery, we're not robbing but we're repossessing.  Yes in our operation I did go to the administrator more than once.
ADV. SANDI: How much did you ask for that is, the first time you went to the administrator to say that you had to get some money to use in some operation.  How much did you ask for?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember clearly but I know that I would ask for money that would provide unit members with transport and money for petrol.  I can't say right now about the amount, I can't remember.
ADV. SANDI: Would you be able to estimate and say perhaps it was in the regions of etc.?

MR MASEKO: You are putting me in a difficult situation, I can say if we are going to Ncoba maybe we would get money for petrol and buy food on the way to that particular place but if I can estimate maybe it can be R70 or R80.
ADV. SANDI: Let us leave that one and now - but ask you a question which also concerns how money is obtained from the administrator.  Was there a specific way of giving a report or reports to the administrator as to how such monies have been used?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember doing that type of report.
ADV. SANDI: You had no specific procedure?  Listen to the question carefully, if you go to the administrator and ask for some money which you say you need to use for a certain operation, was there a specifically laid down procedure of giving a report back to the administrator on how he'll use that money?

MR MASEKO: I never did that.
ADV. SANDI: I'm sorry about that Mr Prior.

UNKNOWN: Mr Maseko, just two or maybe three last points - in my dealings with other APLA applications and particularly where there was a repossession or a commandeering of property before an attack or an operation and let me just give you a general example.  If a target was to be attacked and the unit required transport to that area, they would commandeer, they would seize a vehicle from a member of the public if he was a member of the black population.  The unit would then say "we are APLA, we require your vehicle for a - whatever purpose and you can fetch your vehicle from such and such place, we will leave it at a certain place" or something like that in other words the victims in that robbery situation, if I may call it robbery for the purpose of my question, were informed of what the repossession or dispossession entailed and who was involved.  With that in mind, my question is - when you went to the University of Umtata, do you know or was it your instruction for your unit, attack and support unit, to indicate to the persons inside the building that you were APLA and you were about to repossess funds for the movement or something in that line?
	I know it's a long question, do you follow what I'm asking you and are you able to answer that?

MR MASEKO: Even now I can't understand that question.

MR LAX: Maybe I can help you.  What Mr Prior is saying is that in other matters involving APLA people, his experience of their way of operating was that they would identify themselves as APLA particularly to African people and say we are APLA, we need this for this issue, go and fetch your car here or to avoid casualties, the question he's asking you is in this instance, at UNITRA that day, did you identify yourselves as APLA so that people would be calm or did you just go in there and not identify yourselves at all?  Have I asked the question correctly?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes.

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure if they were told but I still think that there was no need for them to tell the people, to identify - there was no need for them to identify themselves.
ADV. GCABASHE: It wasn't anything you had discussed before you went to UNITRA?

MR MASEKO: No we never discussed that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I don't propose to refer in any length to the submissions that I handed to the Committee at the lunch adjournment and I refer specifically to the submissions made by the PAC at the security hearings before the H.R.V. Committee in August and of October last year.  Suffice to point out that repossession units or Beauty Salon was referred to at pages 113 to about 118 of those submissions.  I simply mention that for the information of the Committee should any questions from the Committee arise from that and suffice maybe just to mention that the high command of APLA certainly referred to the repossession units as being part of the strategy but I don't propose to cross-examine or ask questions on this aspect.  Mr Chairman, may I be permitted just to finally put to Mr Maseko one other aspect.
	At page 68 of the bundle and I'm referring to the statement that you made at Westonaria.  I refer to paragraph 7, the second portion of that paragraph towards the bottom of the page and I read or I quote from the last sentence:  "I was not doing this alone" referring to the selling of vegetables and ice cream in the streets, "there were people like Sangoma, Tabang, Sandile and Mantani who were helping me.  Sangoma was the driver."  Then you said "I did this job until the announcement of suspension of armed struggle by the President of the PAC" and I continue on page 70 paragraph 10 continues and you said:  "We had two items on the agenda, one was the coming elections, two, way forward on question of elections.  We all agreed that we must help mobilise people to vote for the PAC on the question of way forward.  We all agreed that the question of armed struggle is out because the political power is in the hands of the African people whether it is ANC or not PAC, the fact is the political power is in the hands of the African people so there's no need for armed struggle." and you go on but I end the quotation there.  Have you followed what I have mentioned to you?

MR MASEKO: I don't follow this.

UNKNOWN: You see I'm referring to a statement that you agreed to earlier on in your evidence that you had made in Westonaria and unfortunately the statement - the copy that is in the bundle does not have a date but there's a reference number a Westonaria CR number which is 267/11/1990 which means that this statement was made during November 1990 possibly.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior that's very misleading all it means that the incident occurred in November 1990 and that particular incident was reported to the police then.

UNKNOWN: I realise my mistake I was trying to put the statement into a time frame.  I do apologise Mr Maseko let me just come back to what I was driving at in the beginning.  At two places in your statement you refer to being aware of the suspension of the armed struggle, once at a time when you had been selling vegetables, fruit and ice cream on the streets and you became aware of the suspension of the armed struggle by Sebelo Palma, that announcement.  Can you put that into a time sequence for us, when did that occur, when did you become aware that Sebelo Palma had called for the suspension of armed struggle by the PAC?

MR MASEKO: Let me correct you.  First of all comrade Magweto is the one who actually mentioned something about the armed struggle not Sebelo Palma.  I knew and though I can't remember the year but I remember that comrade Magweto suspended the armed struggle not Sebelo Palma.

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon.  Alright but in any event that was an authoritative statement on behalf of the PAC is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.