Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Eck?

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, may I suggest that we take the luncheon adjournment now, so we can rearrange our seating this side and start at quarter to two?

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's quarter to one, if we can then take, it will probably be convenient at this stage, we'll take the lunch adjournment through till quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr van Eck.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm calling Mr Botha.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR VAN ECK: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Botha, you are an applicant here before the Committee, you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: How old are you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: 39.

MR VAN ECK: Could you tell us briefly, your school career, where did you complete your school career?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I matriculated from DF Malan in 1979 and I joined the Police College in Brixton in Johannesburg.

MR VAN ECK: And during that period in time did you come to know Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I had already know Mr Barnard before '79.  If my memory serves me correctly, I think that I already met him in 1976/'77.

MR VAN ECK: In what capacity?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He had a younger brother who played rugby with me and due to this rugby connection we had contact.  As a school pupil I had already worked with him when he was attached to the Narcotic Bureau.

MR VAN ECK: And after school, what did you do?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I matriculated in 1979 and then I went to RAU where among others I studied for a B.Ed Degree.

MR VAN ECK: Did you complete your studies?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't.

MR VAN ECK: Did you maintain contact with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We ran into each other on an on-off basis.

MR VAN ECK: And when you were at RAU, did you continue with rugby?  Did you see Mr Barnard there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I didn't see him there but I did continue with rugby.

MR VAN ECK: And while we are on the topic of your rugby, what other sports did you participate in?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I had provincial colours in judo and rugby.

MR VAN ECK: And when you say provincial colours in judo and rugby, could you elaborate on that briefly?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I had Northern Transvaal colours in Judo as well as Transvaal colours.  I was a champion for a number of years.  I played my first provincial rugby match when I was in standard four, I played for the Transvaal Craven Week.  Subsequently I played on all  the representative teams of Transvaal to the senior level and I played my last match during the Lion Cup Final in 1994, or rather, 1993.

MR VAN ECK: Did you play foreign rugby at any point?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did, I played in France, in Hong Kong and I also went to Israel on a tour.

MR VAN ECK: And after your student days you joined the police.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes that's correct.

MR VAN ECK: When was that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was approximately in 1981, in the middle of 1981.

MR VAN ECK: Could you briefly sketch your police career for us.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I joined the South African Police as a student in the Security Branch in John Vorster Square.  Afterwards I was at the Police College in 1982 and I returned to the Security Branch in John Vorster Square, where I qualified as a demolitions expert. 	In the middle of 1987 I requested a transfer to Brixton Murder and Robbery, where I was until my discharge in 1988.

MR VAN ECK: And when did you complete the demolitions course?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I underwent a course in 1983 and an advance course in 1985.

MR VAN ECK: What did this involve?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Among others, the disarming of bombs.  During my period with the Security Branch the country was in a state of chaos and it was my task to disarm bombs and other types of explosive devices.

MR VAN ECK: What sort of limpet mines are there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There are two types, the SPM limpet mine which has 950 grams of explosives, then there is the 158 which contains approximately 340 grams of explosives.

MR VAN ECK: Very well, we will return to that later.  You requested to be transferred to Brixton Murder and Robbery.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Is it because they were looking for demolitions experts at that unit?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct, that is one of the reasons.  It was also a specialised unit which enjoyed much prestige and I wanted to continue my services there.

MR VAN ECK: Before you were transferred, did you know Staal Burger, Chap Marais and Slang van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I did not know them.  Coincidentally I ran into them at the scene of an explosion where they were trespassing, and that is how I came to know them.

MR VAN ECK: And after you were transferred to Brixton Murder and Robbery, did you come to know these persons on a more intimate social level?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, coincidentally I was with Mr van Zyl and Mr Marais' group, they were established Detectives at Brixton Murder and Robbery.

MR VAN ECK: At a certain point there was movement at Brixton Murder and Robbery, where it had to do with Staal Burger.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have anything to do with it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't.

MR VAN ECK: Later Mr Burger made certain requests to you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And we know now and I think it is common cause that it gave rise to the recruitment of members of the police to work at the CCB.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: You've heard the evidence of among others, Slang van Zyl, Verster and Burger and so forth, regarding how the CCB's Region 6 came to be.  Do you agree in general terms with that evidence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I do.

MR VAN ECK: Could you briefly state, if you can recall, in what order you were recruited.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Marais was recruited by Mr Burger, after that it was me and then it was Mr van Zyl.

MR VAN ECK: And I think it is also common cause that among others, you had an interview with Mr Verster, there were salary negotiations and certain packages were offered.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you then formally resign from the police?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And all of you went to work for Mattheysen Bus Services?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that was our front when we were recruited into the CCB.

MR VAN ECK: And it is common cause that during your time at Mattheysen a course was presented.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: It was a Defence Force farm.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: You also attended this course.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR VAN ECK: Very generally, what was the nature and scope of that training?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The objectives of the organisation were set out in more comprehensive terms, the objectives regarding what we were supposed to promote in terms of our involvement with the organisation.  This was discussed at length.  Among others, there were also forms that we had to study and everything that was based upon the CCB's plan, we had to examine all these aspects.

MR VAN ECK: You were also informed regarding the various plans that had to be followed, the process of establishment, the use of false names and so forth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that was the red and the blue plan respectively.

MR VAN ECK: What was your false name?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Leon Calitz.

MR VAN ECK: And what was the form of address among the members of the CCB?  After you went over to the CCB, what was the form of address among your members?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The only person who insisted upon being addressed as a Mister or a Colonel was Mr Burger, the rest were all addressed by their first names, not their false names but their first names.