Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

YASMINE SOOKA: I'm going to give you another five minutes, let's see what you do in that time. And could you make your questions a little shorter please?

MR KEMP: Thank Mrs Chair, I'm losing Mr Pigou completely, half way through the questions.

MR PIGOU: Okay, I'd just like to put on record that there are aspects which we wish to recall Mr Nienaber and Mr Coetzee about because we haven't got time now. I'm just going to finish off with a couple of questions at this stage.
 Now it's clear from the information or it's clear to me that in the information we've heard about in this hearing, that the Security Branch did not give crucial information relating to the Stompie Sepei investigation and the Lolo Sono investigation, although I clarify that because Mr Nienaber says that he did give that information to Mr Dempsey. 
 But it seems to me that certain information in that wold be in relation to Mabotha was not used and is indicative of the Security Branch prioritised what assistance that it did give to the Murder and Robbery Unit. I'm referring there to the alibi, I'm not quite sure I find Mr Pretorius' response feasible. 
 The question I want to put to you is. If the Security Branch or I put to you this, if the Security Branch had reacted to information which they may have receive or did receive in connection with Lolo Sono and Mr Stompie Sepei it is highly possible that they had either acted themselves or passed it on to a police unit that was prepared to act timeously, that the lives of Mr Sono and Mr Tshabalala and Mr Sepei might have been saved. What is your reaction to that?

MR NIENABER: You want me to answer?

MR PIGOU: Mr Nienaber yes please, thank you.

MR NIENABER: As a matter of fact, as far as I've heard in the Commission that that information was picked up on a telephone tapping am I correct?

MR PIGOU: Well I can, I think the one issue I'm referring specifically to now is - and I don't want to go into the whole telephone tapping debate, I mean I don't want to go into the whole telephone tapping debate again around Stompie Sepei and the Brandfort alibi.
 But the particular thing I'm looking at now is the statements that were taken by Mr Norman Lemmer, who were not particularly satisfied with in terms of the inquest investigation but Mr Lemmer takes a statement concerning Mrs Mandela the following day after two youths are abducted and Mrs Mandela is implicated. 
 Now the evidence that we've heard in this Commission would actually lead us to the conclusion that if the Security Branch had acted either directly or indirectly and had gone to Mrs Mandela's house, that those youths may well have been found alive and they well be alive today. 
 Now, would you accept that as Commander you were therefore responsible for the failure? Now this would be Mr Coetzee because this happened in November. But generally do you take responsibility for these failures by the Security Branch?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Can I react Mrs Chair? I've also listened to the Commission that there is information which was received via telephone. Because of that information network the allegation was made that those children were sent out for training.

MR PIGOU: With respect, the statement said, we've heard what was said by Mr Pretorius I believe it was or it may be Mr Potgieter, I'm not sure. But with respect the statements that were given to Mr Lemmer referred to an abduction that had taken place the previous day by Mr Nicodemus Sono and Mr Tshabalala, the father of the two boys that were abducted.
 Now there was some inference that they may have been taken out, I believe one of the statements referred to the movement dealing with these people. Which you might draw the inference that they were being taken out of the country but the statements from those two gentlemen specifically referred to abductions that had taken place the previous day.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Madame Chair, that was the information the police had, that these children had been sent out of the country for training. Were the allegation comes from that they were abducted I do not know. You know I think it is quite an unfair suggestion to make that should the police, Security Police specifically, that they were negligent.
 I want to take this further to say, what about the many children whom people have said before this Commission who withheld information from the Commission. There were witnesses before you, while their children ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Coetzee, I think that we're not going to get into debate here.  I think you have to understand that there's a very serious allegation on the table and the evidence of the father of one of these two children is before the Commission. That he himself and the father of the other boy who they alleged were abducted, they made a statement to Mr Norman Lemmer.
 They alleged further that the statement that they made was not taken very seriously by the Security Branch. And I think the question that is being put to you now, is that in your capacity as head, do you accept any responsibility for the fact that if the Security Branch had acted in terms of investigating those statements then the lives of these two young boys could have been saved. I think that's the question that's being put to you.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Mrs Chair, I don't accept responsibility, no. If there were negligence of any of the members, nobody but nobody can approve of negligence.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Coetzee, I'm going to follow that up with a question.  Earlier on you were asked the question about whether you were satisfied in retrospect with the way in which the investigation into the death of Sergeant Pretorius had gone and whether you were satisfied with the way in which Mr Lemmer had handled that matter and I think you said no.
 Now I'm giving you another example where another father has said he thought the Security Branch was negligent in the way they handled the investigation into the abduction of both his son and the son of Mr Tshabalala. Now you have just said before us that if that has happened you, I think you answered now that you take the strongest exception to that and you would be uncomfortable with it.  Now I'm putting before you two examples where the families of these people has come forward and have said that they were not happy with the way in which the investigation has been handled. And I'm asking you for your comment and whether you feel responsible for the negligence of the members of your unit?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, Madam Chair I am a little cross. If there was any negligence on our side and I quite frankly must tell you it wouldn't have been allowed, steps would have been taken against them.
 But in retrospect with regard to the docket and the post-mortem I want to repeat, yes if one looks at it now and if you start finding fault, you will find fault. But that doesn't really mean something because really as far as I'm concerned the information also says that nothing at all went wrong with regard to the death of Sergeant Pretorius.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Mr Pigou, will you pass on please?

MR PIGOU: I think my five minutes are up so I'm going to just ask if you'll permit me one more question to Mr Nienaber.
 During the Section 29, in camera hearings with Advocate van Vuuren, he said that he and I believe Mr Swanepoel, had the distinct impression that the Security Branch sabotaged the investigation into Mrs Mandela with regards to the alibi and whether or not there were other particular incidents. There may well have been and I presume there would have been if they were trying to gain that or that they did gather that impression. Could you tell me what your reaction is to Mr van Vuuren's comments?

MR NIENABER: I don't agree with him.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.

MR NIENABER: That's nonsense.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you want to comment on that, I thought I saw you?