Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter, your experience at that timeduring the unrest of persons involved in such unrest, would yoube able to give us a little more information with regard to theirages, the ages of comrades and what your experience would havebeen in this regard?

ANSWER: During the unrest I had at a certain time beeninvolved in a riot squad unit who dealt particularly with theunrest situation throughout South Africa.   At a certain stagein Atteridgeville, when I was still a very young constable, westill used the old Hippo vehicles, we came around a corner andthere were two vehicles parked next to the road.   A group ofnot youth but children, and I doubt if any of them were olderthan 14, were at that time busy pouring out petrol over thesevehicles.   My Commanding Officer at that time, a Captain, butI do not remember who he was, gave instructions to shoot on thesepeople.   I then told him "don't do that, don't do that theseare children".  We sat down and drove off.   The childrenthen dispersed rapidly when they noted us.   A block away fromthis incident, both of these vehicles were in flames.   At thattime, and this must have been in the years of 1976 and later inthe 80's, the youth were politicised and activised to such anextent that they had no regard for property or life left.   Briefly,after I was stationed with the Security Branch, I was given theinstruction or I had rather been requested by the Shoshunguwepolice station, I was the service officer at that time, to comeout.   There was a person arrested known as "Naughty"and this person had the entire Shoshunguwe area in the palm ofhis hand.   If he would say that there was a consumer boycott,then that
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consumer boycott would have occurred.   If he gave instructionsfor a school boycott they would have occurred.  He ruled the entirearea with an iron hand.   I still don't entirely understand theentire story of activists and people like that, but then I wentthere and I visited Naughty in the cell.   On my way down thecorridor I saw a young boy and then I walked back to the Sergeantand I asked him where this person is that I have to see becausethere was only a child in the back.   The Sergeant then laughedand told me that this is indeed the person.   I walked over, Ispoke to Naughty, and I asked him if he was the terror of Shoshunguwe.  At that time he was 15 years of age and he ruled Shoshunguwewith an iron hand.   I do not know if he received his instructionsfrom older persons, from adults, but at that time I was very inexperiencedmyself.   I had an interview with him and then returned to myoffice and I was flabbergasted, I could hardly believe that aperson of such a young age could be so deeply involved in politicalactivity and could exercise such a degree of power.   I was atthat time already an adult but I had not realised that any personcould exercise this degree of power over others.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain, your recollections with regard toactivists who left for military training, in your knowledge andI am only asking about what you can remember generally speaking,would you be able to remember whether these were normally personsof an older age or a younger age?

ANSWER: These were normally youths, comrades, activistsand the like who left the country were generally younger than20.   I can remember a particular incident in Zeerust where ofthese youths at that time of the age of 14, left the country andreturned two years later, and if my memory
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does not fail me they then killed people in the Western Transvaaland were hunted down by the police.   Two of them were shot deadand the other three were arrested and then it became clear whattheir ages were.   We would be able to refer to this case if thatis of interest to the Committee and we would be able to tracethis case because the three of them were charged.   At the timeof their action they were 16 and they had left the country fortraining at the age of 14.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman...also in argument, there is areported decision on that.   If you will just bear with me MrChairman.   Captain Hechter would you be able to tell the Committeeunder these circumstances, or the circumstances under which Mamaselaoperated, would Mamasela have enticed these persons or would hehave acted as per the testimony of Brigadier Cronje?

ANSWER: This would be an opinion concerning somethingwhere I was not present.   I do know that Mamasela at that timewas very positive but I'm afraid that I would not really be ableto express an opinion in this regard.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN

<UNKNOWN>: May it please you Sir.   Captain, Naughty thatyou referred to, is that Naughty Msisi?

ANSWER: Yes, Naughty Msisi that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Naughty Msisi was a client of mine for aboutfour years.   You very effectively detained him on many occasions,he was arrested, he was charged, he was in and out of jail, isthat correct?

ANSWER: I would assume so, one does not keep close record. I do remember that he impressed me considerably.
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<UNKNOWN>: I may tell you, I saw him recently and he worksfor an insurance company, a very respectable young South Africanman today in the new South Africa.   That is the way in whichthe Riot Squad and the Security Police dealt with the vast majorityof the comrades.

ANSWER: Chair we can argue in this regard but that isthe case, the degree of or the number of deaths, the people whowere forced to eat eggs, the number of schools that were not attendedbecause of Naughty Msisi's actions, the number of people for whomhe caused tremendous unease because of the circumstances.   In1986 of course the entire situation became far more intense.  Consumer boycotts became violent, the entire country was consumedin violence.   We had then to act decisively against these people.

<UNKNOWN>: ...gave the police powers, as well as the InternalSecurity Act, which were used very, very effectively in the townshipsto deal with the situation in the townships and that is what thepolice generally did.   I put that to you.

ANSWER: I entirely understand what you are saying butthe situation had become of such a nature that it was no longerpossible to act in this way with regard to these people.   Butthis is not in the case of every person, every second or thirdperson in the black community was an activist or a comrade andif we look in terms of percentages how many people were treatedin a rough manner these would be the extreme cases on their side.  Only those persons who went entirely beyond all control, personswho committed arson and true acts of violence, as far as we coulddetermine, these persons who were the real fermenters(?) of violenceand then the only possibility remaining for us was to counter
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violence with violence, with the purpose at that time to keepour leaders in power.

<UNKNOWN>: The measures which you took in this instanceto trap nine or 10 young schoolboys into believing that they weregoing for training as then potential soldiers and to then killthem, was totally unjustifiable even in the circumstances thatprevailed.   I just want to tell you that that is what we aregoing to argue.

ANSWER: It is of course your right to argue in this casebut what is important for us was that there were persons of theage of 14 who left the country, who returned and who generallykilled mainly their own people, black people.   I can accept entirelythat you would argue in this way.

<UNKNOWN>: To blow up the Kombi, who put that together?

ANSWER: This was also done by Special Forces, I had noknowledge of it at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: All the information that you got regardingthe victims in this instance was from Joe Mamasela and you haveno personal knowledge of what they had done?