Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR DORFLING: Mr Khumalo I am asking you whether there was any other person that fired at the crowd or at the marchers from that corner on that day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Not to my knowledge.

MR DORFLING: I want to put it to you that I am appearing on behalf of 9 of the injured people that got shot at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street on that day and that the objectors whom I represent deny that they were attacking any of the guards at Shell House. They deny that they were carrying any firearms and they deny that there was any justification for the security guards firing at them. What is your response to that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is their own opinion.

MR DORFLING: Are you saying that is incorrect?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Is it your evidence or your position today that you should have stopped firing earlier than you did?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now can I just understand that proposition. You fired a number of bursts, short bursts of automatic fire. Can you say how many bursts you fired?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I can't say.

MR DORFLING: What was the reaction of the crowd after the first burst of fire?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Some were (...indistinct) some were still charging and some I think were - on that event what I have seen. I have never seen people going back at the same time. Others were coming, were still charging. Others stopping. Then you don't know whether, if military - if you understand military if a person falls down don't think that you have shot him. You will be deceiving yourself. He might be taking a prone position trying to counter you.

MR DORFLING: Were you aiming fire in the direction of people that had fallen down?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Repeat your?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you purposely aim at people who were falling down?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

MR DORFLING: I have got no further questions. Thank you Mr Chair.

MR DORFLING: .

CHAIRPERSON: Any other cross-examination?

MR PRETORIUS: May it please you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Were your clients involved in that scene as well?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed, indeed so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo when one count the bullets altogether, all the shots that the ballistics found fired from an AK47 from that particular point where you were more than 30 shots were found by the ballistics. Do you understand that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes I do.

MR PRETORIUS: That means simply Sir that you must have changed your magazine. It is impossible for you to have just used one magazine. Do you understand that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I don't understand.

MR PRETORIUS: If according to your evidence an AK47 has 30 rounds in it in a magazine - in the magazine that you had that day and the ballistic evidence indicates that more than 30 shots were fired by that AK47 from that corner where you were. If there was only one AK47 it means that you had to change magazines otherwise it would have been impossible to fire just from one magazine. Do you understand that now?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think from the ballistics which you are talking about they say that from the ballistics they say that there was another AK which was firing from the Nando's side.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo I am specifically referring to the AK47 that fired shots from the position where you was. Did not count the other AK47 shots. I am referring to the shots that was fired from a position where you was.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It can be so but if you are firing with an automatic rifle it can happen if there was another AK it may happen you have fired on that position too.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo but your evidence is that you were the only person with an AK47 on that specific corner. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Hundred percent.

MR PRETORIUS: If you were the only person on that specific corner with an AK47 and more than 30 rounds were fired from that corner with an AK47 then it means that you must have changed magazines.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It doesn't go like that. As I am telling you that if the ballistics proved that there was another AK coming from that direction it can happen that, that AK is the one which have made those holes. Not only mine.

MR PRETORIUS: Have you got information or can you give us the name of any person who had an AK47, and that is another AK47 on that specific corner where you was?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I say from the ballistic report not from the corner which I was.

MR PRETORIUS: But Mr Khumalo maybe you don't understand my question. I am putting it to you that the ballistics specifically from that corner where you was found that there were more than 30 shots that were fired from that specific corner.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman the marks were found around the corner of King George and de Villiers Street in various, there were vehicles there that they found AK47 shots. There were buildings and on the buildings they were identified AK47 shots. They then thereafter agreed that, that shots emanated from this specific corner where the witness was or this applicant was. They identified those shots as being AK47 shots. So the point is then that there were more than 30 shots fired with an AK47 from that specific corner where this witness was.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman again I will intervene very briefly. The ballistics report is subject to some interpretation. There are general areas from which the fire may have been directed. Some of the lines I believe my learned friend is referring to which are drawn to that corner also incorporate a section of the parapet. And so shots may have come from there as well. And so the arithmetic is by no means as literal as my learned friend is purporting to put it forward to this witness.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman the problem is only this and therefore it is very easy to overcome the problem that my learned friend raised. It was and is still the ANC's case as I understand it that on that specific corner whether it was on the parapet or down on the ground where this witness was situated, on that specific corner there was only one AK47 and that is the AK47 of this witness. The only other AK47 which they had was the one that the previous witness, Mr Molefe had who was quite on another corner of the parapet. So if there was only two AK47's and they draw a line, the ballistics draw a line to the vicinity of the corner where this witness was it could only have been this witness' AK47 and no one else's.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I am sorry. It is something that we will argue to the extent that it is necessary to argue at the appropriate stage but my learned friend with respect to him is ignoring the fact that the ballistics report includes an area drawn with speckled lines which is described as the fire area. The lines that are drawn are an approximation. Even the ballistics experts accept that at some stage there is an approximation. That one has a little chip out of a concrete wall and they do their best is direct the origin of it but it is not with respect as literal as my learned friend is putting it forward.

CHAIRPERSON: Basically the difference between you and this witness really is whether he loaded his AK and put in a second magazine in it or not. That is it isn't it?

MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think let's just put it that way. If more than 30 shots were fired from an AK47 it is being said that it could only have been from your AK47 and that you did load another magazine in it. Because nobody else could have fired an AK47 in that area. Have you any comment to make?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes Chairperson. As I have said that the ballistics shows that there is a proof that there was another person on that other side with an AK47 that could have happened that, that person had made holes there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is your answer as far as he is concerned.