Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct.  Even after I was imprisoned I made means so that I should be released from prison because I was arrested and convicted with people I did not know.  I don't even know the victims they've killed.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, not relating to this aspect but there is just one piece ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're at large, you're not re-examining now, you can ask any question you like as long as it's relevant to the hearing.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Mr Mofokeng, when were you convicted actually?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: I was convicted in 1993 on the 5th of March.

MR MAPOMA: And since then did you get out of prison?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: No, I've not been out of prison.  I've been in prison from that date until today.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Simon Kotlane Mofokeng of Welkom?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: I don't know him at all.

MR MAPOMA: You have not been to Court some time in November this year, is that so, for another trial?

CHAIRPERSON: In November, this month?

MR MAPOMA: ...(inaudible)

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: I've never been in Court about any kind of a case.  I went to Kroonstad Magistrate's office to fill in the Legal Aid forms because I did not understand why I am in prison so I went to the Legal Aid offices to fill the forms.

MR MAPOMA: Ja.  Now I just want you to clarify this.  There is an article here which deals with a certain Simon Kotlane Mofokeng who was sentenced for murder this month, is that not yourself?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: You even scare me further, that's for the first time I hear that, from you today, about that case.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofokeng, when did Thabo Motaung die?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: I was told that he died in 1995.  If I'm not mistaken it was somewhere in 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you fill out your application form for this application, was that in 1996?  Why I ask is because the one that I have on my documents is not dated but it's got a '96 number.

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: It was in the middle of last month.  I didn't go there because I wanted to come to appear before the Amnesty Committee but I wanted to continue with my appeal.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I'm asking is, you filled out this application form which is number 24 of 1996 so it might have been filled out in 1995, and in that you first of all say that Thabo told you that he was promised R36 000,00 not R75 000,00.  I'm referring to page 33 of the documents.

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct, I filled that form in in 1996.  I wrote there that Thabo said he was promised
R36 000,00 at that time.  It didn't come straight from his mouth.  He is the one who came to emphasis where we met.  
	It is not the only form which I filled which belonged to the TRC, I filled other forms.  I did not know where to write.  I tried all corners about my appeal and then I was rejected at all costs.

CHAIRPERSON: And obviously when you wrote this document that appears on page 33, perhaps if Mr Mhlaba could just show it to you, it's a photocopy, when you wrote that document it would seem that Thabo Bennet Motaung was obviously still alive because you say the very same person is willing to testify before the Commission.  His address is as follows, and then you give: 413 Sekonjela Street, Bohlokong.

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct.  It is true because of what happened so I missed the dates but what I've said already is what has happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So what, was he offered R36 000,00 or R75 000,00, what is the correct figure?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: He pleaded off that is was R75 000,00.  He told me that he signed forms together with his two sisters.  He's not the only one who signed on that form, even his two sisters signed.  That is why they were eager to go and take him from Qwa Qwa and correct what he has said in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: So was this offer of payment of R75 000,00, was that made by the police?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: Yes, he was promised by the police.  As he said that if I fill the forms to be the State witness and co-operate with them and I am imprisoned with them, so they've explained to me what happened.  So I told them it is correct that my co-accused explained to me what happened but I would not testify before the Magistrate because I did not know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know whether Motaung actually got payment, did he actually receive it or did it go no further than just being a promise?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: When we parted he said at that time he has not yet been paid.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die a natural death?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: I was scared the way he died because some of my co-accused when I informed him that Thabo came to me and told me how he was promised money by the police, my co-accused therefore informed that if the police would know that he contacted me they would try by all means to murder him or kill him.  So I was surprised by his death.  Though he died through sickness but I believe that it was an unnatural death because he died at the time when he was wanted mostly.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he ever signed that affidavit in which he sets out his version of events?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: Even today, the affidavit I gave it to Thabo, I don't know what happened to it.  I tried to contact his family members to bring that affidavit back.  Maybe he has signed it.  I'm not able to find it back.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mhlaba, your legal representative indicated just prior to your giving evidence that you would be or have withdrawn your application for amnesty, is that correct, have you withdrawn it?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: Yes, he's telling the truth.  After he explained to me how the Commission works.  It seems the Commission wants people who are responsible for the criminal act because I am not responsible, I did not take part in that incident.  I don't where they were killed, I don't those people, I don't know even my co-accused and how they did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, your legal representative advised you correctly, the applications for amnesty are only received and considered in respect of perpetrators, people who have been involved in the commission of some offence or act or crime and it's not granted to people who deny that they have done anything, so that is correct.  Yes, thank you.
	Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR MHLABA: Just one aspect, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mofokeng, you have indicated to the Committee that Thabo Bennet Motaung was in the company of his sister or sisters, do you know their names?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: We stay in the same area, that is in the same street but unfortunately I don't know his sisters' names.  The other one was a cleaner at a local hall, so we are not very close with them.  Even Thabo himself didn't have those relationship with me, only our parents knew each other.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions arising?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mofokeng, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence for the applicants, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are there any further witnesses to be called?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, the victims are available but initially they indicated that they would not want to testify.  I would like to have an adjournment, a short adjournment just to clarify.