Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MR HATTINGH: Was it in this interim period between your two appearances at the Goldstone Commission that you heard that your mother died and that you killed Obed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Can you please explain what is your point?

CHAIRPERSON: When you came back from the Goldstone Commission to visit your family is it then that you found out that your mother had been killed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I was phoned that my mother had been killed so I got the message over the phone before I even reached home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then you left back to the Goldstone Commission?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When I heard that my mother had been killed I was approached by the lawyers for human rights and they said that they were going to take us to Ermelo but we were going to come back that very same evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Any case, at some time thereafter you went back to the Goldstone Commission, not so?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But the time you returned to the Goldstone Commission was Obed dead or alive?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: At the time you went back to the Goldstone Commission was Obed alive or dead?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes Obed was still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Is it only after your return on the second occasion on the Goldstone Commission that you killed Obed?

CHAIRPERSON: A simple application of logic would prove that.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	When did you receive the instruction from your MK Commander Gushu to kill Obed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When I'd come to visit my place I told Gushu about the remaining members of the Black Cats who were a problem and during that discussion we were told that we should join the self defence unit and that is when the instruction came.

MR HATTINGH: Was that then before you went back to the Goldstone Commission for the second time, for your second appearance, that you received the instruction from Gushu?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I was told that by Mr Gushu before my mother died or before she was killed.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, perhaps just for the assistance for everybody if I may just give some of the chronological events.  This gentleman testified before the Goldstone Commission for the first time in the first week of March 1992 and then he was - his cross-examination was reserved for a later stage and he came back on the 7th April and the 8th April and on those days he was cross-examined again.  It was only quite some time later that this murder took place and at that stage he was still in the care of the lawyers of the Weekly Mail who then voluntarily - and he voluntarily surrendered himself to the police at that stage for the murder.  Just to give an idea of the time and dates that's applicable here, as you please.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, have you heard now the last time you appeared with the Goldstone Commission was on the 7th and the 8th April 1992 - that is there was a few days before the death of Chris Ngwenya and your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Could you repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: We were advised that you first appeared before the Goldstone Commission the first week of March 1992 and you testified before the Goldstone Commission then.  You then returned to the Goldstone Commission and your appearance there was completed during the period 7 - 8 April 1992.  That was four days before Chris Ngwenya and your mother was killed.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I think you must not overlook the fact that when I was giving testimony the Goldstone Commission - I was under witness protection.  I would only come here per special permission even if the Goldstone Commission didn't require me to render testimony I would be in Johannesburg because I was under witness protection.

MR HATTINGH: I'm not going to take this any further, could you just confirm that you attended the funeral of your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: We all feel like that Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if you would bear with me for one moment, let me just go through my notes?  Thank you.
	Although no reliance can be placed per se on whatever Judge Goldstone found at the time of his Commission with regard to the Black Cats, he did make a finding that you as well as the other people who testified about the activities of the Black Cats that your testimony was wholly unsatisfactory and unacceptable.  What is your response to that?

CHAIRPERSON: How relevant is that, Mr Hattingh?  What he thought or what he thinks of Goldstone's view, how relevant is that here?  What are you going to do if he says he doesn't care for it?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think I commence my question by stating that although it has no value as such I think it will make more ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Matters for argument, are you not putting matters which are matters for argument to the witness, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, once again I would submit that the purpose of cross-examination is not to confront and to break down the witness but to allow the witness of the opportunity of explaining things and what I'm doing now is giving him the opportunity of explaining something which is bothering us.

CHAIRPERSON: How is he going to explain what Goldstone found?  Goldstone made those findings, rightly or wrongly, how can he explain it?  The likely scenario is that he is going to say well I don't accept what Goldstone says and you yourself say you can't place the reliance of it so of what value is it?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman I'll leave it at that.
	I would like to put it to you and my instructions are that Jwi Zwane, the person that you say was the leader of the Black Cats, that he in fact did not partake in killings and the terrorising of the community and that there was no reason for him to be eliminated?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It's the very first time that I hear such a statement.  As a person who was there, who can vouch as to Jwi's behaviour and how he terrorised the community I think I've got better knowledge than you.

CHAIRPERSON: You were part of that what turned out to be the Black Cats at one stage, isn't it?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct I was a member.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: And was Zwane part of it?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct, he was the leader even during the time when I was the member as well as Chris.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was your leader at that time?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is true.

MR HATTINGH: Did you take part in any decision making with regard to the killing of Chris Ngwenya?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Could you repeat yourself please?

MR HATTINGH: Did you take part - or perhaps I should rephrase the question - did you play any part in providing information which led to the killing of Chris Ngwenya?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: What I said is what was happening that Chris as well as Jwi were the people who were killing members of the community and they were the people who were sending members of the Black Cats to attack the members of the community, this what I told Mswande Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: This applicant has not made application in respect of Ngwenya?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, for that very reason I rephrased my question because I think my first question indicated that I was implicating him in the decision making.  My second rephrased question was did he provide any information which ultimately led to Chris Mgwenya being killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you trying to implicate him now or are you risking his implication, not so?

MR HATTINGH: That is not my intention, that's why I rephrased the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether it was your intention or not is irrelevant, the fact of the matter he is at risk now, isn't it?  What if he had to say yes?  Let's be careful about that, he's not made application for that.