Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At the game farm Chairperson it did not happen the way it's written down here.  There where me and Cliffie walked, he said to me or he told me that he was looking for a man who knew Johannesburg well and Etienne Le Roux was in the company then.

MS VAN DER WALT: I do think I must make objection to the remark that was made.  It's quite evident that the applicant, Mr Le Roux testified that together they consulted, certain mistakes were pointed out and it was corrected.  Now if this was an absolute mistake or contradiction, the one said 'A' planted the bomb in Johannesburg and the other one said 'B' planted the bomb, then such a remark might be justified but really this is not important and the applicants came to you and honestly told you that a mistake was made.
	It's things that happened a long time ago, the people forget certain things and surely I don't think it's necessary.

MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman I've finished with that point.  I'll deal with it in argument.  Now the meeting on Page 134, Paragraph 24 of your written version.  Regarding that meeting, you were in the inner circle, being an officer, it was a closed meeting.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Paragraph?

MR BRACHER: Paragraph 24, Page 134.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I've got it thank you.

MR BRACHER: You were part of the inner circle of officers who discussed these pipe bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Sorry, what would you like to know?

MR BRACHER: You were part of the inner circle of officers who discussed the throwing of pipe bombs, you were not only one of the men who later found out about it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I was present there.

MR BRACHER: And if you say, the question of the throwing of pipe bombs were discussed which target would you have chosen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The discussion I'm referring to here, it was discussed that the people outside had to be used, we didn't discuss who the targets would be or what the targets would be.

MR BRACHER: So the men had to decide about the targets, they had to decide it themselves?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It would have been discussed outside of the building Chairperson, it was not discussed inside.

MR BRACHER: So what was discussed outside?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: There I was not permanently present so I do not know which instructions were given.

MR BRACHER: Now read the next paragraph because this differs from the evidence this morning.
"After this meeting I called together the members at the game farm, not Major Smit, me, that's Abie Fourie, I called the members together."
Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's like I've said.  I was told to call the men together.  I went, I did that and I spoke to some of them when Major Smit shouted out to the people to go outside.

MR BRACHER: You say "I" called the people together, not Major Smit?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's what I remembered later Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Just I just once again read the utterance at the Criminal Court.
There's a contradiction amongst the Transvalers that, there's differences about who helped to organise with regards to the meeting at the pipe bombs and also who received the feedback.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Was that your evidence?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It is correct.

MR BRACHER: For the Record can I say that's Page 95, Page 3505 of the Judgment.

MS VAN DER WALT: That's exactly what he testified.  It's exactly what he testified to here Chairperson.  There is no difference.  He testified that he started to call the people together then Major Smit shouted.  So he helped to get the people outside and he did say that people gave him feedback, that's what he testified.

MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman this morning he said he didn't call the people together.  He was about to when Major Smit did it.  I'm not happy with that but I'll come back to it in argument, I'll check my notes because it's, okay.  So you brought the members together or started this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Where were you when you didn't hear what they were talking about?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was in the area, the stoep or verandah is close where the people were.

MR BRACHER: And you helped to choose the groups, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I beg your pardon.

MR BRACHER: You helped to choose the four groups?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I did not help to choose them or select them.

MR BRACHER: Or select them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Did you select anybody?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No.

MR BRACHER: Turn to Page 201, Paragraph 24, that's your brother's version, Gerhardus Daniel Fourie.
"With my arrival at the hall I was asked if I wanted to go with Pier Steyn and Jaco Nel, I then agreed",
Is that correct?  Paragraph 24, Page 201.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It could be that.  It occurred like that or happened like that.

MR BRACHER: Page back to Page 134, the end of Paragraph 23, 134, it's the last sentence of 23.
"At this stage the other Ystergarde members did not realise what the main purpose of this gathering was."
What was the main purpose of this gathering?  Paragraph 23, the last sentence of 23

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The last sentence?  When we marched up to the game farm Mr Chairperson, then we did not know about bombs and things that will be manufactured.

MR BRACHER: Was the bombings the main purpose of the gathering?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, it did not have anything to do with it.

MR BRACHER: Then why do you say here that it's the main purpose of the gathering?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: What I mean by saying that is that what happened at Koesterfontein and how the things worked out in the end.

MR BRACHER: Was that the purpose of the gathering?  To bomb innocent individuals?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I think you mean that we had to plant the bombs from there.

MR BRACHER: I want to know what you meant when you said this under oath?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We all marched up to the game farm to provide protection, that was told to us.  That's what they said to us and then at the game farm when these explosions took place and the pipe bombs arrived there, that's what I mean, we did not know that will happen.

MR BRACHER: What was the purpose then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It must have been the higher ranks who planned it that way.

MR BRACHER: The higher ranks of whom?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The people or men who started it.

MR BRACHER: It was part of the Ystergarde or who?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: From the Generals or the Brigadiers in the Ystergarde who may have known.

ADV GCABASHE: And when was this communicated to you?  This real purpose.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Let me just hear the Afrikaans please.  Could you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: When did they tell you what the main purpose was?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When the bomb exploded and the pipe bombs arrived there, then I realised what everything was about.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the main purpose of this trek, this march up to the game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, just to help me here.  Just give us a date and a meeting, just so I can understand exactly when this was communicated to you.  Because you are now talking about after the bomb had exploded.  I'm assuming that's the Bree Street bomb and tell me if I am wrong.  And the pipe bombs had arrived.  So are we talking about the 24th or the 25th here?