Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR VALLY: Would a person who wanted to come and stay at the house, be checked out to see if they were informer, or whether the story was true, or were anyone allowed into the house at any time, and I'm talking about the back rooms as well?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I want to cover some new item, but I just want to cover some of the items you've already given evidence on.
 Firstly regarding the issue of the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei, and the abduction of the other young men.  Who specifically gave you the instructions to fetch the four young men from the Methodist Manse?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Secondly, regarding Mr Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala.  Mrs Madikizala-Mandela says, the  last time she saw these two young men, was when she dropped them off with the two ANC guerillas were staying at your house.  What's your response to that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Do you agree that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has nothing to do with the death of these two young boys?
Do you  maintain your story you gave us earlier as to how they were killed and on who's instructions?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on to the issue of Dr Asvat.
 We have medical records showing that you've visited Dr Asvat's surgery on the day before he was killed, and on the day he was actually murdered.  Do you confirm that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you tell us why you went to see him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did your visits to Dr Asvat have anything to do with his murder?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Were you (indistinct)the scene for the person who actually carried out his murder?  Were you acting as a scout, were you on a recognisance mission to Dr Asvat's rooms for the presidents who actually carried out the murder?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: At the time that the youngsters who had been kidnapped from the Methodist manse were at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.  Were they at any stage examined by Dr Asvat?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you saying you do not remember, or are you saying it did not happened?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Regarding Kuki Zwane, when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked at her section 29 inquiry, the second one, page 154 , and she was asked .  Do you know Kuki Zwane?  Her first response was, Who is this?  I continued, Kuki Zwane.  Her response was, Who is Kuki Zwane?.  I continued, she's also known as Priscilla Massell, or Masio.  Do you know her at all?
 Her response was, ..oh, there is I think.  I recognised that name.  It was included in the allegations that were made to my daughters.  That was one of the killings I heard of for the first time, and that girl had been killed and information to Fivas, it was one of the names  that were mentioned at the time and I heard for the first time that she was  dead then.   I continued, Do you know her at all?   Her response was,I knew her vaguely as one of the children who were in and out of my house.  I cannot remember her.  
 I asked: Who was she friendly with,..and I continued why was she coming to your house? Her response was:  They visited each other all the time, I mean those boys were visited by all sorts of people.  I also mentioned that Kuki Zwane had gone to see Dr Asvat with Katiza.  
 Mrs Madikizela-Mandela denied that.  I asked was Kuki Zwane a personal friend of your daughter?  
 Her answer was:  No, not to my knowledge.  I asked her, when was the first time you heard of Kuki Zwane's death?  The response was.  I heard when my daughters were called by their father, and they were told that that was one of the deaths.  It was not only the Asvat killers who were supposed to be mentioned then.  This particular name was also one of the names.  
 Fivas was suppose to put all this deaths together, including the death of this child.  I asked her.  Jerry Richardson alleges that he was responsible for the murder of Kuki Zwane , and he was acting on your instructions.  
What is your comments on that?  Her response was:  I heard for the first time from you, not even that information which had reached us at the time identified Richardson as a killer.  I was merely told that that child had been killed, and that would make it possible for me to be implicated in her death.
 I heard for the first time from you people that Richardson was a killer.
 My question:  Was Kuki Zwane ever a resident in your house?   No, no girl was a resident at my house, it was only the boys  at the back.
 Now these were the answers that we got from Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela when we had the in camera enquiry.  
 My first question is:  Did Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to the best of your knowledge know Kuki Zwane?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Just very brief about Kuki Zwane and  Bothile.  You mentioned that you people went twice to Brandford to look for Kuki Zwane and Bothile.   Your answers were not to clear at that point.  Are you saying that no one was allowed to leave the football club without permission?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What would happen to a person who left the Soccer Club.  Would there be any violent consequences to his action, would he be assaulted, would he be threatened with death, or would he just be spoken to?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: : Excuse me, the witness has the impression that you're not listening to his answers, because when he is answering, you are consulting.  I think you should show him the courtesy of listening to his answers.

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, you can be rest assured, I'm listening to you very carefully through my head phones.  I'm just preparing my next question.
 Let's go on, I want to go back to the attack on your house by the police when Serg. Pretorius, Mr (indistinct) and (indistinct) as you refer to them, were killed.
 Now, is it true that Serg. Pretorius was in fact, what they called, you handler.  That you informing to him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I asked you a question, whether you were a police informer and the person whom to you were supplying your information to, was Serg. Pretorius.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: (No translation)

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Will you answer the question please.  Were you a  police informer or not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you give information to the police during any of the time that you were staying at Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house regarding the activities that are taking place in her house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you at any stage give any information to the police regarding the activities that were  taking place at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's start off with Serg. Pretorius?  Did you give him any information?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So he just casually every now and then gave you a lift to Ellis Park and from Ellis Park.  You were just a friend of his?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: You promised to give him any information?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you ever deliver on you promise?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What information did you give him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What I need to know from you..