Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

MR TERREBLANCHE: Let us leave the question there.  The following, you saw one of the three attempting to shoot you.  Can you exactly or explain what you testified.  They were lying there, then you saw someone, you were talking to them, they said that they were injured and that they wanted help.  Then you saw someone, one of them make a movement and that he was going to shoot you.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Then you reacted very quickly, because this person wants to shoot me.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You thought that you would shoot him first.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not remember which one I shot first of those three.

MR TERREBLANCHE: But you can remember which one wanted to shoot you.  Can you remember that?  It is terrible, these people are lying in front of you and one of them wants to shoot you.  You must charge him in front of this Honourable Committee, he now wants to shoot you.  Which one of the three, it cannot be all three.  Which one was it?  Can you remember?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: At that time, Mr Terreblanche, I was very angry and emotional.  I could not see which one was trying to shoot me.  I do not recall clearly because this happened years ago.  I cannot recall everything to the detail.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You cannot remember what the Committee really wants to hear.  You only remember what you want to remember, but because to say that I am shooting out of self-defence, somebody wants to shoot me.  It is only one of the three, who, which one of the three wanted to shoot you?  If you cannot tell us which one of them wanted to shoot you then I don't think we can rely on your evidence.  I don't think we can believe you then.
	Can I make it easier.  If you are going to make a charge, or lay a charge, I was somewhere and somebody hit me, who hit me?  A man with a green shirt or maybe you don't know the name, but there is only three people here.  One is apparently already dead.  One speaks, he is lying flat on his stomach and the other one sitting against the car's wheel.  Which one of them wants to shoot you and you say you cannot remember.  Out of self-defence you shot all three of them but you can't remember which one of them wanted to shoot you,  Mr Menyatsoe?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, if you were in the situation I was in at that time, you would realise that it is possible not to notice everything that happens at the time.  Some, you might be able to notice, but as time goes on, moreover given the time that has gone by, you wouldn't be able to recall.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were giving in chief, this is my notes, correct me if it is wrong.  You said that after you spoke with these people who were lying on the ground.  One moved and his hand went underneath, I thought he pulling a gun and I then shot all three of them.  That is my notes of your evidence.  Can you remember a hand going underneath?  You said that in your evidence in chief, unless my note is wrong.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said so, but I do not recall clearly which one of the three.  That is my answer.  I do not recall which one of the three.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I will leave it there.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just intervene.  Mr Menyatsoe, now the word underneath is a translated word, but what did you mean by saying I saw a hand going underneath?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: His hand was going in the side that one would normally carry one's firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it going underneath his body?  Was he moving his hand under his body, what precisely did you see?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: He was moving his arm as the applicant is indicating.  It might be to the side or to the back, where ever one normally puts one's firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: By moving his left arm down to the side and behind to the back of his body, going down towards the waist.
	Mr Terreblanche, you said that you were moving onto another question.  I think this might be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment.  I see that it is just before 1 o'clock.  We'll now just adjourn for the lunch interval.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS- MR TERREBLANCHE: (cont)
	Thank you very much, Chairperson. 
	Mr Menyatsoe, before lunch we were busy with how you saw that one of the persons, men's hand moved down to where he would carry his weapon.  Usually where does a person or an AWB person, where does one carry a firearm.  Which side and where, what part of his body does he carry his weapon?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I cannot be able to respond to that, I'm not an AWB member and I never take note of them, how do they carry their arms.

MR TERREBLANCHE: But let's leave the AWB out of this, let's say where does a person usually carry his firearm?  On which side?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You asked me about AWB as to how do they carry their arms and now you are changing the question to just an ordinary person.  Now let me respond to the first version of your question.  I do not know how do the AWB carry their arms.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second part?

MR TERREBLANCHE: The second part is what you have said in evidence or as in response to the question.  He moved his hand downwards to where one would usually carry his firearm.  Where does one usually carry his firearm?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: He moved his hand around his waist.

MR TERREBLANCHE: To his left or right hip or waist?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not recall.

MR TERREBLANCHE: In which position was he lying when he dropped his hand?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not recall.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You only remember that he dropped his hand?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not recall.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You can't remember that he moved his hand downwards.  That is the question I am asking you?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do recall the fact that he did move his hand.  As to which hand I do not recall and as to whether, how was he positioned, I do not recall as well.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So Mr Menyatsoe, he moved his hand.  You can't remember how he lied, you can't remember which hand he moved, but still you said that he moved his hand towards where one would usually carry his firearm so his hand moved to his hip.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, when you are in a war situation, any ordinary person when you holding a hostage, the moment that person moves, you expect anything to happen.  That movement can result in anything.  You have to be careful.

MR TERREBLANCHE: That is my point, one has to be careful.  The specific situation in which you find yourself, therefore it is funny for me that when you got to them, that you did not look and make sure whether they had weapons.  One has to be careful, you said that you kept them hostage, but you don't see whether they have weapons with them when he moved his hand.  Maybe he had a bullet in his leg or in his hip and he is touching the place which is painful, then one has to be so careful that you are actually shooting.  Is that what you mean with being careful?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, let me respond to your question by saying, my intentions of going to your soldiers was not to see as to whether they were armed or not but to kill them in order to protect the nation.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So the goal was to kill them, not to see if they are armed, not to see if they maybe want to shoot.  The purpose was to kill them in order to protect the nation, even if they were not armed, is that correct?  You wanted to kill them, even if they had no weapons with them, is that what you are saying?