Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: But by the time the group had to attack the police station, you had moved from Khayelitsha to Guguletu.  That information that had was outdated and not worth anything.
	The group wouldn't have been there where you were sitting on the roof anymore.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: If they had intentions of arresting us, and not killing these innocent people.  On the very same evening, or the day when they came with the helicopter, they would have done so, but they were aware that I was training them and I gave them AK's.
	Their intention was not to arrest us on that particular day when I was sitting on top of the car reading a newspaper with a cap on because on that particular day we were armed and they could see exactly where we were so they had enough chance to arrest them.  They just wanted to do this evil thing that they did.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, so are you really saying that on the day of the helicopter flight, not only were you sitting on the roof with a white cap, but the group were armed and they could see that the group was armed from the helicopter?  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: Your honour, I am not sure whether you understand me.
	What I am saying is that the time this helicopter was flying around, they knew that I was training these people and there were AK47 rifles and grenades.
	And they were quite fully aware of the situation.  They should have just arrested them in the same night, because they flew over the area during the day, so they should have come in at night and arrested them.	I am not sure whether you understand me on that.

MR BOOYENS: No, I think there was a misunderstanding.  I understand what you're saying now.
	Now, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you live in Guguletu?

JIMMY MBANE: I can't remember the addresses, but there was a shack that we used to stay in.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a shack settlement again.

JIMMY MBANE: There was a house inside the yard, there was also a shack.

CHAIRPERSON: But Guguletu had addresses.  It wasn't a shack settlement was it?  You say they had street numbers and street names.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you give Bellingan and Liebenberg the address?  Where the Comrades were staying?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't give them the addresses.

MR BOOYENS: But you knew the addresses of everybody.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Can I please explain this to you Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, let's hear it.

JIMMY MBANE: What happened there - when I was recruiting those people, I had all their names, all their information.  Belletjies...I told Shakes, I instructed Shakes to get all the information of these people.  I only took their biographies and gave them to Bellingan and Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS: I am, well the group moved from - moved to Guguletu where there were addresses.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you knew because you were the leader of this band of men, you knew where they were staying.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: The biographies were still in Bellingan's possession.  They also knew where those people lived.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they not also move and live with you at Guguletu.  Did they remain in their homes?

JIMMY MBANE: We left, both of us, we occupied two places in Guguletu.

MR BOOYENS: I heard both of us, in my interpretation.  Let me just make clear.  All of you, you Eric and the whole group moved, or who moved to Guguletu?

JIMMY MBANE: All the people who were in the group moved to Guguletu.

MR BOOYENS: Now you had two addresses in Guguletu.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know the addresses because we never had a chance to go out during the day.  I didn't thing about checking the addresses because the people who stayed in Guguletu at the time knew the addresses.

MR BOOYENS: Please, are you seriously suggesting - well did you want to find out the addresses where you were staying.  Obviously not so - that you can give that information to the police?

JIMMY MBANE: As I have already told you, Bellingan and Liebenberg had the addresses, therefore I assumed that they knew.  I gave them the addresses and the information concerning those young gentlemen and there were addresses included in that information.

MR BOOYENS: No, but just now you said that you couldn't give, I understood you to say that you couldn't, you didn't know the Guguletu addresses because you couldn't go, you only had to go out at night.  So how could you have given Bellingan and Liebenberg those addresses?

JIMMY MBANE: Your honour maybe you don't understand me.

MR BOOYENS: Maybe I don't.

JIMMY MBANE: Let me try and explain to you.
	Just before I could train these people I asked for their personal information.  I took them myself to Bellingan and Liebenberg, therefore they had the addresses.  Even another group that came after that, I did the same thing.  I took all their personal information, after that I assumed that they had the addresses, so for me it was not necessary to go on looking for the addresses.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told us the whole group moved to Guguletu.
	That would have been different addresses, wouldn't it?

JIMMY MBANE: Your honour, these people's personal details are from Guguletu and some of them were staying in Guguletu.  In one of the houses that we were occupying used to be a home of one of them.  It used to be a home to one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you moved in to the home of one of them, whose address you had already given to Bellingan.  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So, as far as that house was concerned, it's not true to say that you don't know the address because you never had a chance to go out in the day.	You knew that address, you gave it to Bellingan.

JIMMY MBANE: It's not that address that I knew the address.  After writing down their personal details, I took those details to Mr Bellingan.  When we moved to one of the houses, I just assumed that they knew the address. 	I just told them that we have moved to Guguletu.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you go and reconnoitre the scene?  Where the attack was to take place?  What time of day.

JIMMY MBANE: It was early in the morning because the bus would go at a quarter past seven.

CHAIRPERSON: So that was in the day time.  So it's not true to say that you never had a chance to go out in the day when you wanted to recon you went.

JIMMY MBANE: I managed to go out with this other person to do the recon.  It's only the first day when I left the house, and the second day I ordered them to go and do the recon and the third day I went to report.  They didn't ask me about my address and whatever.
	I just assumed that since I have given them the personal details of the people, they knew the addresses.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you my Lord.
	And the other address in Guguletu.  What was the problem with that?  Is that because it was too dark or you could only go out at night that you couldn't give them the address where the other address used by your group.

JIMMY MBANE: That never crossed my mind.  I am the person who actually failed to think about that.

MR BOOYENS: And it never crossed the mind of Bellingan and Liebenberg either.  To say to you where are these people based.  Ask you for an address.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I think they didn't think about it also, because they didn't ask me.

MR BOOYENS: And I take it you also didn't, it didn't cross your mind to inform them that the whole group has now moved into one of the addresses in Guguletu that belonged to one of them.  You didn't tell them that either.

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't think about it also.

MR BOOYENS: And I presume you also failed to tell them that the whole group had moved to Guguletu.

JIMMY MBANE: I told them that we have moved and we were in Guguletu at that time.

MR BOOYENS: And these two experienced policemen didn't ask you where in Guguletu?

JIMMY MBANE: They didn't ask me.