Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR DU PLESSIS: And were was all - you don't have to explain to us who was in each vehicle, it has already been put before the Committee, who was all with the operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was for the purposes of inside Swaziland, it was Col Botha, Col Vorster, W/O Wasserman, W/O Verwey, myself and an informer.

MR DU PLESSIS: And were they all in Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct yes, although the informer was met in Swaziland.

MR DU PLESSIS: He was already in Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And the informer caused Cele to be called to the kombi?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And he climbed inside?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you say you went to a before agreed point, is this on a remote road?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: It's not the normal highway which you crossed the border back to the R.S.A.?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: And one of the primary reasons why Mr Verwey and you went along was because you knew the area there?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, it was part of the area which we worked in.

MR DU PLESSIS: Very well and what was the impression that you had, what was the purpose of the operation, why did Mr Cele have to be abducted?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I was told or the impression that I had that it would be a recruitment action.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was there information that it would be possible to recruit Mr Cele?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes there was information to that effect.

MR DU PLESSIS: So would refer to the recruitment as an informer?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you have any idea or any indication during the whole operation when it took place that Mr Cele was to be eliminated?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, I did not.

MR DU PLESSIS: And did the idea come about with you?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you don't know what happened afterwards?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm page 156 and further the political motive with which you acted up to page 165?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And another further question which I want to put to you, when did you hear that Mr Cele was eliminated?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was much later, I cannot recall a specific date.

MR DU PLESSIS: And were you surprised?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: And page 166, there is a piece which you embodied in your application with regard to reconciliation.  You do not have to read it, do you confirm it as correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And just convey your current opinion and feeling in which you find yourself in currently and your view of the new South Africa and of the Truth and Reconciliation procedure?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Plessis, if I may interpose for one moment?  Do you not think it is important that your client's current opinion be put to the persons here?

MR DU PLESSIS: I should have perhaps done that.
	Mr Labuschagne, would you please read what you say there on page 166?
MR LABUSCHAGNE
"I believed that what I had done was in the interest of the Republic and the people.  I am not sure what is happening today and I do not feel happy and I believe the family of people had suffered and the loss of lives, I hope that this application will lead to reconciliation and comprehension amongst the people.  Although it is not for me to decide who is correct or wrong but as a citizen of the new South African, the truth of the past must come out and this is applicable to all the former security forces as well as members of the then liberation movement."

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	What is your present status in the South African Police Force?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I am a superintendent in the South African Police attached to Crime Intelligence Service.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you heard of or had you met Dion Cele before this incident when you were asked by Taylor to assist?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No but I knew of him but I never met him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know the informer?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No I didn't know him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was the real reason why you should have been asked by Taylor to assist in this matter, is it just because you came from the Eastern Transvaal and you knew the area well or were there other reasons?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I think insofar as it is applicable to this incident, it is because of the fact that this was our area which we worked and we knew the area well.

CHAIRPERSON: What precisely did you do apart from merely accompanying them on that occasion, what did you do?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Apart from us accompanying them we showed them the roads or the small paths which we crossed the border illegally with later.

CHAIRPERSON: On the first occasion when this reconnaissance was done you were with them?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, I was not present.  I heard the following day that they had already had been in Swaziland to do some reconnaissance.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on the day of the occurrence when you were with them did you actually go into Swaziland yourself?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you go via one of these secret ...(intervention)

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, we crossed the border legally, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you exit from Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was across the border fence in other words we returned illegally across the border fence.

CHAIRPERSON: On the return journey on that day did you have any dealings with Dion Cele?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any dealings with the informer?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at all when there was any discussion of your colleagues with the informer before this incident about Dion Cele?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, I was not present Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely what are you applying for amnesty for?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: The fact that Dion Cele had been abducted.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he abducted and brought in the vehicle which you were in?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, he was never in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: So how were you involved in the actual abduction?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: The fact that we accompanied the people and we showed them how to cross the border illegally, I feel I was part of the abduction and it was also not normal.

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps if I may just take up from where you left off?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: With the abduction itself were you told that you would possibly play an active role, were you ready to step into or similar?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, we were just there if I could say for a type of backup and because we knew how things worked in Swaziland and how to get back to the border.

ADV BOSMAN: What was your rank at that time?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I was a sergeant.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any cross-examination?

MS THABETHE: Just on question on one aspect Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Mr Labuschagne, I just want to clarify something, you might have covered it in your evidence but I might not have gotten a clear picture.  You say when you were approached by Mr Taylor to assist in them abducting Mr Dion Cele, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct yes.

MS THABETHE: Did he give you any details of why the abduction had to take place and who was going to be abducted?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes he said it would be Dion Cele and he also said but I do not want to say according to research but according to their opinion he was to be recruited as an informer.

MS THABETHE: And you were willing to associate yourself with that abduction, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I trust you have no questions to put to this witness?

MR VISSER: I do have one however Chairperson.