Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Was he injured or was he well?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He was injured.

MR JOSEPH: Would you say he was seriously injured?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did his father come out to the vehicle?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did you hear his father have a conversation with Mrs Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Are you able to remember, now, once again, I ask you to be careful and to relate to the Commission the words that you remember, not what you have read anywhere, not what you have heard anywhere.  Nobody expects you to remember the exact words that were spoken, but try and relate, as faithfully as you can, the language you heard being spoken on that day when the vehicle arrived at the home of Mr Nicodemus Sono.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: When I arrive in the house the father of Lolo Sono came out in the car, in the house and then he speak with Mrs Mandela.  Then he asked what happened and the boy wanted to explain.  They told the boy to keep quiet.  From then, Mrs Mandela drive and then we came back again and then they say Lolo Sono, they want the document which Lolo Sono work with the police.  The father say his son, he does not work with the police.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is only conversation I remember.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.  That is all you remember.  Did you hear every word that was spoken.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: You did.  Anything else?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: She say, I am taking with me.  The movement, you see, what to do with him.

MR JOSEPH: Ja.  Did the father ask for his son back?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And what was the response to that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: She says she is taking him with (...indistinct), she see the movement what to do and then we drive to the house back.

MR JOSEPH: I am sorry, I never heard you.  Would you just repeat.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: She say I am taking with him, the movement will see what to do with him.

MR JOSEPH: We are taking Lolo to the movement?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: So, the movement will see what to do with him?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What then happened?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And then we drive back to the house and then I came out in the Kombi and Mrs Mandela remain in the Kombi and then I do not know what is next.

MR JOSEPH: After leaving Mr Nicodemus Sono's house, you drove back to the house of Mrs Mandela.  Is that what you are saying?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: You alighted from the vehicle and the vehicle then took off?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And who was in the vehicle when the vehicle took off?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did not know who was in the vehicle.

MR JOSEPH: You were there when you arrived at (...indistinct).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, when the vehicle drive I did not know who drove the vehicle, Mrs Mandela went with the vehicle.

MR JOSEPH: Just tell the Commission who ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Remove your finger from the base.

MR JOSEPH: Tell the Commission who was left, which human beings were left in the vehicle which dropped you off at Mrs Mandela's house after you had paid the visit to Mr Nicodemus Sono's house.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Mrs Mandela.

MR JOSEPH: Yes, who else?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Richardson.

MR JOSEPH: Who else?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And the team.

MR JOSEPH: Who else?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is all.

MR JOSEPH: Was there anybody injured in the vehicle?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who is that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Lolo Sono.

MR JOSEPH: Was Lolo Sono, then, in the vehicle?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Was that the last time you saw Lolo Sono alive?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, in so far as this hearsay evidence might be objected to, I leave it up to the Commission to restrict this type of evidence.  Did you hear anything about what might have happened to Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: No.  Mr Chairman, may I now direct you to the larger affidavit, the one that I have called the third affidavit and in particular to that part of the affidavit which begins at page ten.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: You have it?  On the 29th of December 1998, the 29th of December, I, 1988, I am sorry, 29th of December 1988.

MR VALLY: Sorry, could you possibly refer us to the paragraph numbers?

MR JOSEPH: Paragraph 33 on page ten.  On the 29th of December 1988 the four young men, the four people, four human beings, four human beings arrive at the home of Mrs Mandela.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.  Who were these four people?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Kenny Kgase, Pilo Mekgwe, Thabiso Mono.

MR JOSEPH: I am sorry, I never heard the names.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Pilo Mekgwe, Thabiso Mono, Kenny Kgase and Stompie.

MR JOSEPH: And Stompie.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And Stompie, what is his surname?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Stompie Sepei.

MR JOSEPH: Now, what happened to these four men?  What I have in mind is what took place, what took place, what did you see take place?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They were beaten at Mrs Mandela's house.

MR JOSEPH: They were?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Beaten at Mrs Mandela's house at Diepkloof.

MR JOSEPH: Did you, once again, with your own eyes witness the assault?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who were the people who perpetrated the assaults?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Mrs Mandela, I too.

MR JOSEPH: You participated?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Richardson and Mpumolelo and the football team.

MR JOSEPH: And the members of the football team?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, where did the assault take place?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: At Mrs Mandela's house.

MR JOSEPH: Where about in Mrs Mandela's house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: In the courtyard, in the back room.

MR JOSEPH: In the back courtyard?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, are you able to recall the method or the manner in which this young man was assaulted?  Are you able to recall the method or the manner in which this young man was assaulted?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: These young men were assaulted, I beg your pardon.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Well, describe it to the Commission.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I brought a sjambok and then I hand it over to Mrs Mandela and then she whip Stompie.  He is the first to whip Stompie.  She said they are sleeping with the white man and Stompie he work with the police and Mrs Mandela started to whip them.  Richardson, he took the foot in the hands and they lift him up and they drop him on the floor.

MR JOSEPH: Just stop there for one moment.  You testified to some language or some words that were articulated, some words that were spoken by Mrs Mandela during the beating.  I heard you say you sleep with the white man.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And I heard you say something about the police.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, they work with the police.

MR JOSEPH: Work with the police?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Is there another word for a person who works with the police?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, spy.

MR JOSEPH: Another word?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Impipi.

MR JOSEPH: And the word that we all use, what is that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Informer?

MR JOSEPH: Thank you.  So, Mrs Mandela accused this young man of having slept with a white man and having been a police informer.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, you had something to do with the false allegation being made.  Namely, the false allegation that Father Verryn ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: He is actually Bishop now and Methodists do not call themselves Father.  No, he has got a right, you call him Father.  I think it is probably the easiest for (...indistinct).