Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR BOTHA: Let me put it this way. The objectives of the AWB and the Orde Boerevolk at that stage, was to prepare for the struggle that had already commenced, according to us, and we wanted to arm ourselves. It did not matter where we obtained the weapons from, we simply had to find weapons - to collect arms because you can't fight a war without arms and ammunition.
And we, and by that I mean members of the AWB and the Orde Boerevolk, our aim was to collect weapons so that we could wage a war. We couldn't wage a war by words alone, we needed weapons. And  we must bear in mind that we had declared war against the then National Party government. They were in control of the Defence force, the Police, and all the arms and ammunition. We didn't have funds at our disposal and we simply had to obtain weapons in whatever way we could.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Botha, when you drove into Durban for the purpose of launching an attack,  your intention was throughout that the people to be killed should be Black, am I right?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Irrespective of whether they supported the PAC or the members of the PAC.

MR BOTHA: That is correct because the attack which had been launched that morning by the PAC, had been launched on exactly the same basis. They did not first ask the White people they attacked whether they were members or supporters of the National Party, the Democratic Party, the ANC or whatever. They were simply attacked because they were White.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you thought the attack that you had always been fearful of  by Blacks on Whites had now ... [intervention]

MR BOTHA: Commenced?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Had now commenced?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With a few knives in the streets of Durban?

MR BOTHA: That attack was the beginning and if you look back from that attack to today, how many other attacks there have been by the PAC on Whites, it has increased. That which we expected materialised, it was real, it was not just our imagination.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You referred to a training of some kind which members of - which you received, I think, as members of the AWB.

MR BOTHA: No, the training to which I referred was training which I received when I was doing my military training.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, I thought you recruited a few people and then the training started?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, that is so but where I referred to training which I'd received, it was training which I'd received in the Air force and the Navy. That is training I received. That other training to which you are now referring, is training not undertaken by the government or government forces, but by the AWB.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that military training?

MR BOTHA: Yes, yes that is military training.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: For what purpose?

MR BOTHA: To prepare us for the struggle ahead.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha I would like to ask you some questions about the decision that was taken that for every one White man that would be killed, there must be ten Blacks who should be killed.  When was that decision taken?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, when the Orde Boerevolk declared war against the government by means of the video, it was also the aim of the Orde Boerevolk by means of this declaration to make the government realise that the policy that they were pursuing was fraught with danger and as I have said, in right-wing circles attacks of this kind ... [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand the reasons, I want to know, when was that decision taken that, that should be the policy and where was that decision taken?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I don't know. I wasn't a party to decisions taken by the management of the Orde Boerevolk, I can't give you the date and where the decision had been taken.   I can only tell when the decision was conveyed to me and that was at the time when I swore the oath.  That was when the decision was conveyed to me but when and where it was taken, I can't tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a document which records that, that was an official decision being taken? Is there some such paper?

MR BOTHA: No, Mr Chairman. When you are in a situation and you are underground, you don't keep minutes of meetings because should the security police confiscate these documents, it would be very dangerous. So for safety reasons, no minutes were kept of meetings and decisions.

CHAIRPERSON: And to your knowledge there is no document which records this as a decision?

MR BOTHA: As far as I know yes, that is the case. Nothing other than the video recording which was released by the Orde Boerevolk.

CHAIRPERSON: And so how was this decision communicated to you personally?

MR BOTHA: This happened at the time when I was recruited, when the objectives of the Orde Boerevolk were explained to me and when I was sworn in as a member. That was when the instruction was conveyed.

CHAIRPERSON: All that happened one day, the same day, the day you took the oath?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You realise that if you want to be given amnesty, it is a requirement of the Act you must make a full disclosure of what your participation was and what you have done and where you received your instructions from?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I am fully aware of that.

ADV DE JAGER: Now in the light of that could you tell the Committee where were you sworn in, who undertook the swearing-in ceremony, and who conveyed these instructions to you?