Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-26

MR ALBERTS: Yes, my question is how would the killing of ANC members assist you in being able to go into that area again?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: These people in Nkanyezini were attacking us.  This would have opened the way for us, IFP supporters, to walk past there.

MR ALBERTS: Yes, but in what way would it help you to kill ANC members to achieve your purpose of being able to use the area?

MR MALAN: Could I put it the other way around?  After you had completed this attack was the route opened to you again, could you move through Nkanyezini?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: That has since stopped because people from both areas can now visit each other.

MR MALAN: Did the shooting take place in that area where you were shot at?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: It is in the area.

MR ALBERTS: How do you feel about the fact that 10 people died and others were seriously injured as a result of your actions?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I feel very bad.  What I did was wrong and makes me feel bad.  That is why I decided to appear before the Commission, to ask for the relatives of those people to forgive me.

MR ALBERTS: Did you personally gain anything?  Did you get money or any gifts for what you did?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No, I did not gain anything.

MR ALBERTS: Is there anything you would like to say to the family members of the victims and the survivors of this attack?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.  I sympathise with then for what happened.  I ask then to forgive me because what I did was wrong.

MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Chairman no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Sorry, I have not said everything that I wanted to say.  Can I proceed?  When I was arrested, I did not say anything about Sepiwe.  I protected him.  To the police, I mentioned the name Sifiso Mkhize, and said he was with me.  I mentioned Sifiso Mkhize because he is the first person I approached when I wanted to attack the kombi.  When I told him that, He refused to be part of us.  I mentioned him because this happened on Friday and we were arrested on Saturday.  I then suspected him giving that information to the police.  That is all what I wanted to clarify.  I did not mention Makhekhe's name.

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this Sepiwe Mkhize?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Sifiso.

CHAIRPERSON: Sifiso?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes, Sifiso.

CHAIRPERSON: In the shooting did Zondi take a part as well?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes, he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was not charged with you in the criminal trial?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: He was not charged because I did not mention his name.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give the police the name of Ndlovu as being the person who was with you?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.  I told the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I am just testing my mike, the light isn't on. Is it working?  Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Dladla did I understand you correctly when you indicated that you fired certain shots at the kombi, when it stopped you moved up closer, you continued firing and you then noticed that the people weren't the ANC members that you expected, i.e. the victim and then after that you carried on firing at them.

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: These people come from the ANC area, although they were not the people we sought.

MR WILLS: Is it on now?
	You don't seem to understand my question.  I am concerned about what I infer your evidence suggests and that is when you saw the people in the kombi were not the targets that you intended to shoot at you still carried on shooting after that realisation.  That is my question?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Why did you do this?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: We were shooting them because they were staying in the ANC area.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though they may be people who were not interested in politics, who may not have been members of the ANC ...[intervention]?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I cannot dispute if they say they were not members of the ANC.  However, they were staying in the ANC area and we attacked them in that area.  We went on shooting because we wanted the ANC to feel that.

MR WILLS: It seems from your evidence that you must agree with the finding of the trial court in this matter.
	I quote from page 44 of the record Mr Chairperson. 
"He and his companions had absolutely no reason to think or suspect or believe that any of the passengers in this minibus had anything to do with the killing and they clearly did not have any such belief or suspicion."
Is that correct?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Give the gist of it?

MR WILLS: I will do Mr Chairperson, thank you. 	Basically the Court found that you realised that the people in the minibus had absolutely nothing to do with the killing of the children, is that correct?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: That kombi was not used to carry ordinary members of the public, it was used by our attackers.  Those were the people we intended to kill when we attacked this kombi.

MR WILLS: In fact it is true that you didn't know who was in that minibus whatsoever did you?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No, I dispute that.  That kombi is used to carry ANC members.  That is why we targeted it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it didn't carry only ANC, it would carry anybody else too wouldn't it?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I do not know whether there were ANC or IFP members.  What I say is that we knew this kombi as carrying ANC members.  I agree that these people we killed had nothing to do with death of school children.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	I put it to you that none of the victims, those people who were either killed or the people who were injured had anything whatsoever to do with the ANC. Can you respond?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: As I have already explained, this kombi is not known to carry members of the public, it carries ANC members who were killing IFP members.

MR WILLS: Why did you not investigate more thoroughly or plan your operation more thoroughly to ensure that the people who you killed and injured were the people who you intended to kill and injure?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I could not.

MR WILLS: Just for the record I am going to put my instructions to you and that is that the injured people, the driver of the bus was an individual by the name of Welcome Thembankosi Mkhize. He was the driver. He was non-partisan. David Lembeti or sorry, the deceased Bongili Berta Limbeti was not a member of any political organisation. The deceased Bekiziwe Nxabi was a member of the IFP. And in fact he was even buried by the IFP after this incident. Do you dispute any of that?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I cannot dispute it.

MR WILLS: Do you dispute the fact that Muta Mkhize, his mother Zinzingi Zimu were members of an IFP family, both victims?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I cannot dispute it because I do not know them.

MR WILLS: Do you deny the fact that Bongani Zephaniah Ndlovu was an IFP member from an IFP family?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: As I explained before, the people in the kombi were not the people we intended.  I therefore cannot dispute that there were IFP members in that kombi too.  What I say is that I knew the kombi to carry ANC supporters and those were the people we intended.

MR WILLS: What I am putting to you Mr Dladla is the fact of the matter is that a number, more than half of those persons who died ...[intervention]

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Mboyi is an IFP stronghold.  In Nkanyezini, there are ANC supporters, that is why they went to attack school children there.  People in the area were very afraid, as I explained.  I was also shot at in Nkanyezini.  This was going to help us, therefore, not to be attacked by the ANC people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you a few questions please? I want you to listen very carefully. There were three of you. You were armed?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.