Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-05

MS JOY SEROKE: Mr David you say in your statement Ben
HRV/902 Pitsi/...
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Pitsi said you should go home and come back at two.  Who is this Ben Pitsi?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: He was a superior policeman in Sharpeville.  He was well known.  But they used to call him Comde (?).  That is Mr Ben Pitsi.  I know him personally.  I don't know whether is he alive or not.   Because he came from Lesotho.  Maybe he went back to Lesotho or he is still working around Sharpeville.  I don't really know.

MS JOY SEROKE: What was your feeling at that time to carry a pass along with you?  How did you feel for carrying a pass in those years?  The so-called dom pass.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: I used to carry it because it was part of law, even if I was not satisfied I wouldn't do anything.  Let me say if I got employment at Johannesburg or Heidelberg or anywhere you have to work there where you are and they wouldn't allow you to work at any other place.  You know the dom pass was just a misery when it came to such issues.
Every time you would be asked, you know midday, where your pass is.  And they would be chasing you around, just because of this pass.   I didn't like it but I didn't know what to do with it because it was law.

MS JOY SEROKE: You say you have problems with your leg, especially when it is cold.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Yes, the leg is troubling me, especially in winter.

MS JOY SEROKE: Now what helps you with this leg?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: So that it doesn't trouble me?

MS JOY SEROKE: Yes.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: No, I buy salves like Zambuk and Deep Heat, you know I would rub my leg and it would be better. When I have pains I have pains, when it cramps it cramps and HRV/902 would/...
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would apply the appointment but you know the ointments would never help me.

MS JOY SEROKE: Don't you attend any doctor?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: If I go to the doctor they give me salves as well and they give me injection.  For some time it would be better but after a few days the pain will start again especially when I get cold.

MS JOY SEROKE: I thank you very much, sir.

<UNKNOWN>: Utata Ramohoase, I would like you to assist the Commission to get a picture of the mood of the people before the police started shooting, if you can just try and assist us to get a picture of what people were doing. And Utata I will try to assist you.  I will repeat my question.  My request is that you assist the Commission to get a picture of the mood of the people before there was a shooting that you became a victim of.  You had just started talking when the light went off.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: It was a very sunny day.  Many young men were gathering holding their umbrellas in their hands, they were singing Nkosi Sikileli and the other one that I can't remember until such time that the car that I have referred to drove in.  But before the car two of the saracens approached from the east.  Now this white man just gave a sign and shots were fired.  We were still at the sing.

<UNKNOWN>: Again to assist us can you just tell us about the reaction of the crowd.  Did people try to fight back, were they armed, please if you can just give us a clear picture of the peoples' reaction.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Not even one person was armed.  I saw men and women and young men just holding their umbrellas
HRV/902 because/...
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because it was a hot day.  Those who might have had guns, maybe they were hidden somewhere but I didn't see anyone carrying any weapon, not even a stick and knobkerrie, not even a knobkerrie.  I only saw umbrellas.  If one of them had a weapon or you know like a knobkerrie or a spear or a gun I didn't see any.  Because I believe that the people wanted to know something about the passes.  They were not going there to fight.  They were peaceful.  They didn't have anything in their hands.

<UNKNOWN>: Following that incident I suppose there were burials, funerals and community meetings.  Can you assist us as to what went on.  Whatever you might have heard of or you might be aware of, peoples' reaction to what had occurred in the area of Sebokeng.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: I think peoples' emotions were raised high because this incident took many lives and many were injured.  Women lost husbands, husbands lost wives and children lost parents.  Now the community wasn't supposed to feel happy about this.  Even if I wasn't injured I would never feel happy at all about this.  It was a very bad thing to happen.

<UNKNOWN>: If we can ask you again how did this impact, your understanding of politics or how did it - a related question would be how did it affect your life in general, this experience?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: What do you mean, madam, when you say was there any change in my life?   Do you mean physically or emotionally?  I want to understand because physically I can tell you that I have been injured on the knee but emotionally you will have to ask me what do I think.  Yes, my life was miserable, it is true, but I don't know what you
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want to know.   Physically I would say I am not well and emotionally I would say I am not well.  Life has been a misery since that incident.  That is what I can say because every time when I think that  I wasn't like this and I cannot do such and such a thing because of the knee, this brings back memories and this brings pain in my heart.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you very much.  What I would like maybe to ask you once more is to know what do you think should be done for people who have lived with pain over so many years, to begin to heal as you are saying that whenever you think of this your heart gets sore, you get angry.  So it will help us to know from you what you think it should be done to begin to assist people to heal because partly our task is to promote national reconciliation and healing.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: I think I am old enough now and I cannot work for my children.  I would like my family to be taken care of.   When I say my family I don't mean myself and my family, I am saying myself and the nation.  If we can get compensation maybe for the injuries that I sustained, if ever there is a possibility of getting such a compensation besides the R30 that I have referred to earlier on, then I will be satisfied and then life will continue.  You know one cannot buy life but any kind of compensation you know to wipe away the tears, that would be the best solution, especially the clothing and the food and the nutrition in the house.  The other one is doing standard 7 and the other one is doing standard 8.  They are boys.  And we are pulling very hard within the family and things are not just fine.  If it is possible I would like to be helped with such things.

DR RANDERA: Utata David I have just got two more questions
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please.   You said when the car arrived an order was given to shoot.  Was there any warning to the people before that that they should disperse and leave the area?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: In my first statement I said Mr Pitsi told us to go home and I still said that he said we should go back home but at the time when the car drove in nobody said disperse.  He only spoke the first time.  Other people went back but a large group remained behind.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Utata.  My second question relates to what you said yourself earlier on about your injury, that if people wanted to see it that you are willing to show us.  Would you give us your permission to show people what happened to your leg?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Shall I do it here or shall I come to the fore.

DR RANDERA: I think you would have to come to the front.