Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

UNKNOWN: Yes you will be needed tomorrow morning because Mr Phelane is still going to give evidence.

JUDGE WILSON: Well you wanted to go and check with something on the tape and then ask him about that too as I understood.

UNKNOWN: Yes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

JUDGE WILSON: I notice that Mr Phelane is no longer sitting with Counsel or the lawyers appearing and that his place has been taken by someone else, could you please place yourself on record?
CROSS QUESTIONING BY MR VAN DER MERWE

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson I am Andre van der Merwe and I am representing Mr Phelane, and I have been appointed by the legal aid board.  My instruction was that the hearing will start today which is the 14th, I wasn't alerted to the fact that it could be starting on the 13th. I give my apologies to the effect to the Committee and I have consulted and I would like to proceed in cross examining.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes unfortunately we asked Mr Phelane yesterday as to whether he had a legal representative and he said that his application has not been replied to, so there was misunderstanding and we are sorry that you were not informed timeously that the matter might be proceeding yesterday, but I gather you have had a chance of listening to the tape recording of the evidence given by Menera yesterday.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Indeed Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And we will obviously have regard to the fact that you weren't here, you didn't hear it and if you have any problems, just let us know.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Indeed Sir.  Mr Chairperson if I can say I have listened to the tapes till the end of Evidence in Chief, I would say, if it happens that I do ask questions which have been asked in cross examination, I tender my apologies before hand but I will proceed if...

JUDGE WILSON: Well my notes of cross examination which are not in detail are one and a half pages, so I don't think you will repeat a great deal.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm indebted to you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair can I say something?  I just want to place it on record that last night I got a message, rather a call from a Miss Patience from the Johannesburg TRC/ANC desk, who has confirmed that Mr Jack Menera is an ANC member.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know the person who spoke to you, can you confirm that that person is a responsible member of the ANC and authorised to speak on behalf or that organisation.

UNKNOWN: Well usually I speak to the person, I deal with her when I deal with ANC matters, but I asked her to put it in writing and fax it to me.

JUDGE WILSON: But it is someone you have dealt with in the past?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: What I'm getting at, this isn't a stray telephone call from some unknown person. It is someone you have dealt with in the past..?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: ..when making contact with the ANC

UNKNOWN: With the ANC, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  That will be recorded then.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson may I proceed?   Mr Menera in your evidence you stated that at the time and during 1985-1986 you together with Mr Pehlane and that you were held in prison.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That's true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you then further testified that you were shocked to be told by Mr Phelane that he was being released within a week.  Is that so?

N JACK MENERA: Yes as we were arrested with him he told us that next week he will be released from prison.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you further testified that he indeed released prior top you, all of you, is that so?

UNKNOWN: The evidence is that he was indeed released at about the same time.  The evidence didn't go to say that he was released before everybody was released.  In so far as before was concerned, the evidence was Mr Phelane was released before Mr Menera was released.

ADV DE JAGER: It is in fact that he was released before the applicant.

UNKNOWN: That is correct but the statement being made now, that is being put to him is that he said that Mr  Phelane was released before everybody else was released.

JUDGE WILSON: He didn't say everybody else but he did as I understand it say he was released three months before the others.  Three months before the applicant, the applicant's evidence was, we were released after three months detention.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Menera during that time you said that the conversation took place of the early release of Mr Phelane in jail, is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: Yes that's true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Were you all kept in one common cell?

N JACK MENERA: No.  He was in a single cell together with a few other comrades and we were staying in other cells with other comrades.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But Mr Phelane was in a single cell, is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That's true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I wasn't aware that an Afrikaans interpreting facility was available, I'd like to switch to Afrikaans.
	Where did this conversation take place?

N JACK MENERA: This discussion took place in this way.  As we were still with Mr Phelane in Brandfort, when he told us that next week I'll be released, that exactly happened.  We asked ourselves that how did Mr Phelane know that he was going to be released.  Where did he get this information because the comrades who were detained there in June 1986, no one knew when he was going to be released.  We were in the back all the time.  They will just call you and say you are released. We take that as luck, but what I'm explaining is that we were surprised that how did he know that he was going to be released.

UNKNOWN: The question is I think, seeing that Mr Phelane was kept alone in a separate cell, where did he tell you about his early release because you were not in the same cell?...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: In Brandfort he said.

N JACK MENERA: I did explain yesterday that Mr Morgan Phelane was arrested in a single cell but during the time for exercises we used to meet with him.  Even yesterday I did explain it that way.

JUDGE WILSON: A moment ago I think you said, my recollection is, The discussion took place as we were staying with him in Brandfort. You said that about two minutes ago, The discussion took place as we were staying with him in Brandfort, he told us he would be released in a week.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Indeed so Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: ...  it took place while you were exercising in Grootvlei Prison.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I must say that if that was the interpretation then there must have been a misunderstanding between the interpreter and the applicant, he did not in his language say that the discussion took place in Brandfort.  He started, instead of giving a direct answer, he started going back to give a long history as to how they came from Brandfort etc, etc.  But certainly he didn't say that the discussion, the information was given in Brandfort.

JUDGE WILSON: Thanks.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson I accept that, I'm indebted to the chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think that try as far as possible to be brief and to the question.  You see you have this tendency of coming with long stories before you get to the point.  that is why these types of confusions arise, and chances are that more confusion is likely to arise in future if you are going to answer in that style.

N JACK MENERA: Thank you Sir, I will try to make this way.  There are questions that this question wants yes or no but you find that there are questions which need further explanations so that the person who's questioning must get to the real answer and the background of that answer.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Menera if I understand your testimony correctly, at that time, I'm now talking of this arrest under the state of the emergency, if I've understood correctly then your evidence was that Mrs Phelane was a leader figure and that she belonged to the Youth Unit, is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That is true.