Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, they would know that there is an operation that is about to take place, they wouldn't know where it is.  They wouldn't be able to ...

JUDGE PILLAY: It would be easy to look out for you and then arrest you?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I would concede that is a possibility, that is why I took care when approaching the place also, to do, to check if there were any roadblocks around the place when I approach it later on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

JUDGE PILLAY: Another issue I just want to raise with you.  You say the people who assisted you with the operation, were not aware of the car bomb operation and that it would take place?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: What did they do, how did they contribute to the operation then?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, I required a driver of one car to secure a spot as close as possible to the target, that is the Why Not bar, and the person I chose was Greta Apelgren.

JUDGE PILLAY: She went to create a parking space as near as possible to the Why Not?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Under my instructions, direct instructions, I was sitting next to her in the car.

JUDGE PILLAY: But she didn't know that you were going to plant a car bomb there?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: She could not have known as I did not tell her.

JUDGE PILLAY: Okay.  And the other person?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: The other person was Matthew Lecordier, who is one of the co-applicants, who was also under the impression I would leave the car for comrades to pick it up later.  He was only told of the operation as we entered into town.  I don't even remember if I told him specifically of the operation, but I did indicate to him as we came off the southern freeway, I see it is changed now, we hit a bump, there was a bump as you came down, and stopped just before you enter Durban and I indicated to him that there was 60 kilograms of explosives in the boot.  Even at that stage, I don't think I told him what the operation was.

JUDGE PILLAY: What was his contribution to the operation?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: He would give me cover while I am initiating and he would watch out for me while I am busy initiating the explosive device in the car.

JUDGE PILLAY: Although he wouldn't know what you were actually doing?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: He didn't know.  What I told him was that we were leaving the car for some other comrades in town.

JUDGE PILLAY: Carry on.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Just to add, it is not the first time we operated in that manner in the unit.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, I don't know whether you dealt with this on the preceding page, I see you are now on page 14.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes sir.

MR DEHAL: But you all operated on a strictly need to know discipline?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Okay, now just to dwell briefly on a need to know discipline, can you explain why there was such a discipline necessary and how it was put into operation, you being the Commander of your cell?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: One of the things you are taught when you are recruited is what we call Military Combat Work, MCW, which involved knowledge about codes and how you would operate.  For example not asking unnecessary questions, not speaking loosely about operations you were involved in, forgetting operations after you had done them, which we refer to it as a dream.  It is a dream, it never happened, we would say.  General stuff that any guerrilla organisation does to survive, to prevent police tracking it down and compromising it.  I don't think it is any different to any other organisation.  An example is Jeanette Apelgren with the Pine Parkade hoax-bomb, she didn't know why I picked her up.  She didn't know why I told her to park next to the car, she didn't know why I told her to drive off.  She followed my instructions, occasionally there would be some tensions.  In particular Greta didn't like to be just told what to do, although she followed it.  There would be tension, but she followed my instructions, that is the way we operated.

MR DEHAL: Was this not also obviously because of the reason that if the operation had not successfully gone off and if any person was arrested, then the person who operated within the ambit of the need to know discipline would not be able to give information to the police?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, exactly.  For example, many of the operations that I was not convicted of or was not suspected of, the only reason why is I never spoke to anybody about them, and that is why the police did not know about it and could not question me on it.  For that reason, it is obvious to me.

MR DEHAL: I see that in some, whilst you deal with that now, perhaps we should just deal with this, in some of those operations in regard to which you were not charged, Naziem Cassim had featured at a level, he was a State witness in your trial, had there been no need to know discipline, he would have known it all and told the police about it, and you obviously would have been charged, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: And on the same lines, when Rashid was in the hotel room and switched on the airconditioning unit so that there would be disturbance you said, the reason you did not speak of the Why Not bar was if you were to have talked about it you said, the police could have pinned you down at the Why Not bar and the operation would probably not have gone on?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.  There was also an element of distrust.  If one remembers that at that stage a number of ANC people had been - supposedly blown themselves up with their own - in fact the unit I had worked with in Wentworth, some of the guys were killed with a premature explosion at a white school in the Bluff, that was to be used for electoral purposes before I joined Special Ops.  So there was always this paranoia about infiltration, fiddling with the weapons and so on.  So yes, we were careful because we were at war and we would always say to ourselves, these guys work 24 hours a day to nail us therefore we must be extra careful.

MR DEHAL: What about infiltration within the ANC in exile?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is a well known fact, a well documented fact, there was infiltration.

MR DEHAL: And for these reasons there was a need for that discipline?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  If you could then go to page 14, you are at (vi) which begins with "Greta Apelgren was acquitted".
MR McBRIDE
	"Greta Apelgren was acquitted of any involvement in the Why Not incident.  She had to secure a parking place as close as possible to the Why Not bar and she did this on my instructions at the closest possible place one could get to the bar.  Matthew Lecordier also assisted.  He only became aware that this was a car bomb operation once we had reached the town.  He was there to give me cover.  Both Greta and Matthew were under the impression that we were going to leave the car for other comrades of another unit.  This other unit they believed was there and would take delivery of the vehicle."
	I just want to add in here that at some stage prior to this, before going out to Botswana for the last time, we had prepared if my memory serves me correct, a DLB, to be filled later on with weapons I would bring out and Matthew and Greta assisted me in preparing the DLB which was not to be used by us, but by another unit.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, sorry, just for the purpose of all persons present, can you just explain what is a DLB.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It is actually the incorrect terminology, it is a Dead Letter Box, in underground ...(indistinct), this would be where you leave messages, but we began to refer to it where we kept arm caches.

MR DEHAL: Yes?
MR McBRIDE
	"The car bomb was manufactured in the following way - a car was purchased using a false ID number."