Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: From some of the documentations we had received or that was with us, was this information from the media overseas and elsewhere that Cebekhulu, Jerry Richardson and Mrs Falati would know something about the death of Dr Asvat, and this is how the entire investigation started that we should now go back and look at these people and interview them and see how further we can go with it.   We then went to Jerry Richardson regarding this matter, Jerry Richardson refused to talk to us initially saying that he won't talk to us about anything but if we had paid him for the monies that the security branch owed him he would give us information about a certain murder and we said what murders, you've got to tell us first what it is before we give you any money because we didn't know what the money was for the original R10 000 that he wanted from the security branch.
   He then explained to us about how it came about that he was offered R10 000 by the security branch.  It goes like this, not with all the details, but that he had informed the security branch at the time that there were two freedom fighters in the house of - his own house at the time and then the police came and raided his house while he was outside and they shot and killed the two freedom fighters as well as a policeman.  We at that stage didn't know the details of this matter though I know there was an incident but we had no detail.
 We then went back and looked at documents at the inquest court and found these dockets concerning the two freedom fighters as well as the docket concerning Sergeant Pretorius and confirmed that what he had told us was in fact the truth.  And we said okay look, we know now this is true but what have you got to tell us?  Then he said to us if you don't believe what I've got to say, if you don't want to pay me the money go and look at this matter first and come back to me and then I will talk to you people.  
 He then told us to go into an Orlando area behind a railway line, behind a police station near a railway line and there was a body thrown there, and if we go into this matter it will be the body of Kuki.  He then was prepared to take us out to the scene of where this was and show us, or point out the area more-or-less where this body should be.  When asked as to how we got knowledge of this his explanation was that he was given a map by who he called "Mummy" then, indicating to be Winnie, Mrs Winnie Mandela at the time, saying that she had given me a map, a sketch, telling me to go and see where Sledge and Killer had - supposed to have killed Kuki and dumped her body there.  His duty was to go and see that the body was hidden out of sight of the general public and this is how he went to the site and looked there and he found this body near this big rock, came back and reported back to Mrs Mandela, or "Mummy" at the time, and said these guys did a very bad job because there's a footpath and people are walking, the schoolchildren are going to go past and they will see this body.
 I then went back to the police station and around that date when he said it was looked around and I found, I came across this docket of an unidentified female that was found in that vicinity.  I went to the inquest court and drew the necessary documents and found the photos and the description that he had originally given us about this rock and about the injuries to be true.  
 I then went so far as - he also said that this woman was shot and then stabbed, I then went so far as to have this body exhumed and have a post mortem done again.  I managed to identify her parents in Transkei, made arrangements for a DNA test to be done and confirmed that in fact it was Kuki Zwane he was talking about. 
 By that time, while I was still investigating this matter, and he had then told us about the disappearance of Lolo Sono, he had the similar type of map given to him to go to an area - or a type of map or a drawing or a sketch which one may call it, to go to a mine dump, to a certain area as drawn out or as indicated in this map where he would see grave of Lolo Sono.  He had to go and see that the job was neatly done and come back and report to "Mummy".
 He was also prepared to show us where this place was.  We took him in a helicopter, he pointed the area out from the air, we landed there, we looked at the area, we did a survey of the area, it wasn't very far away from where Stompie Seipei's body was found, we then made arrangements for front-end payloaders and dug there for the first three days and we found nothing.  We went back to him and asked him isn't it possible that maybe you have got the wrong area or whatever, he came back to the scene and he said no, it is in this area.  
 I then got a geologist from the Wits University to assist me because of the mine dumps and the slopes of the mine dumps I got him out there by helicopter to the scene and I asked him if he couldn't assess for me because of the number of years since this had happened maybe the slide of the actual bank of sand might have shifted maybe three metres in or whatever, and he looked at it and said actually it's very difficult to tell if we didn't know when the mine had started and at what stage was the mine at that time.
 I then got hold of an official from the RMS, that's Rand Mine Securities who were then doing those areas at the time and they had an idea of what the thing was, this gentleman said no-ways could we give you any idea as to when this started because we keep changing staff and then the whole security system has changed a few times so we cannot give you any ideas.  
 And at that stage I then made a report back to my senior, that's being Colonel Henk Hesslinga, and then we reported to Commissioner Brits, we then took the documents that we had available and took it to the attorney general who declined to go any further in the matter.

MP PIGOU: Thank you.  Tell me on page 30 of the investigation diary that typed investigation diary which you provided to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, there is an entry of yourself going to see the mother of Kuki which I believe has her correct surname, Moseo?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's correct.

DR BORAINE: Sorry Piers, Mr Chairperson, just before your witness answers can I just for the record states that we don't have that diary in front of us and it would be helpful if at some stage it could be made available.

MP PIGOU: Sorry Deputy Chair I thought they had all been made available to you.  I know everyone else in this room on the panels have got them, once again their appears to have been a slip-up from this desk.  Apologies and we will try and rectify that situation.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I just point out something, this is not an investigation diary as per se, it was an information note for the investigators.  If I wasn't in the office somebody else could have come and gone to the computer system and see what I have done for the day or where am I for the day.  So it wasn't an investigation diary as a policeman would write an investigation diary up in a docket.  It was a computer, something that we lodge in the computer with the secretary.  We come and throw a note at her and say this is what I did for today or this is where I am, this is what the situation will be.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: But it does represent a diary of sorts?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes it represents a diary of sorts, yes, no definitely.

MP PIGOU: So Snr Supt Moodley would the full investigation diary still be available then, the actual handwritten stuff not the notes you handed to the person to type in, would the full investigation diary of these investigations be available still today?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: The investigation diaries will be in the specific dockets.