Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is true.

MR SEMENYA: Did Mrs Mandela order the killing of Tholi?

MR NTOMBENI: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: Who according to you had ordered the killing of Tholi?

MR NTOMBENI: ...I'm still looking for that information as to who actually ordered  the killing between herself and Zinzi.

MR SEMENYA: The person who ordered it is either her or Zinzi?

MR NTOMBENI: That is definite, between the two of them they'll sort themselves out as to who ordered the killing.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you say that?

MR NTOMBENI: Because I know this woman, I know what she's capable of, and I know Zinzi.

MR SEMENYA: Just educate us a little bit, why do you say that? - based on your knowledge.

MR NTOMBENI: Winnie is a very brave woman, she's capable of anything and she can do anything at any time and Zinzi has definitely taken after her mother, she's just like her mother and that is why I have the belief that both of them are capable of any deed whatsoever.

MR SEMENYA: Is that the basis of your answer that Zinzi or Mrs Mandela must have ordered Tholi's death?

MR NTOMBENI: I just want to explain this to you - when Sizwe got to my place he was drunk, he had drunk brandy, he was from Diepkloof.  He went past Orlando before he came to me and Winnie said she was not present at that time, she was in Cape Town but the following day she was there, she had arrived from Cape Town and she was with Zinzi.  Zinzi was there driving in a microbus together with Guybon and Shoes, looking for Sizwe.

MR SEMENYA: Which questions are you answering?

MR NTOMBENI: I'm just explaining to you that that is the basis on which I say I know them and that she does whatever she pleases and when she pleases, that is the question I'm answering.

MR SEMENYA: In your statement you say that when there was an attack you refused to go.

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, when they went to attack Sponge's place as well as Killer Mbatha.  If Killer Mbatha would give testimony he would corroborate what I'm saying.

MR SEMENYA: So it was possible to refuse some of these instructions?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, because I had realised what was happening, all along I was just being dragged into the whole thing.

MR SEMENYA: All this time you didn't see what was happening and it is the first time now  you realise what was happening.  When you were burning other people's feet as you say and torturing them, you were not aware what was happening?

MR NTOMBENI: I knew and I knew that you wouldn't dare defy Winnie and whenever you defy Winnie you were referred to as an informer.

MR SEMENYA: Now, why did you defy her this time?

MR NTOMBENI: I had decided enough was enough and come what may.

MR SEMENYA: But notwithstanding your refusal to go, you still go nevertheless just to go and see the red Audi where the body's lying?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, because Killer came to me and told me that Maxwell had been apprehended and I went there to see as to what was happening.  When I got there he wasn't talking, he was lying still.

MR SEMENYA: I put it to you that you trying very hard to implicate Mrs Mandela in some of these events you're testifying to.

MR NTOMBENI: What proof have you got that whatever I'm saying is not true?

MR SEMENYA: Is that your answer to my statement?

MR NTOMBENI: I want to know and maybe you can enlighten me, when you say that whatever I'm saying isn't true - I'm telling you what I know, what I saw and what I witnessed.   What is it that you witnessed that you can possibly tell the Commission?

MR SEMENYA: Is that your final answer to my question?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

DR BORAINE: Just before I turn to the any of the lawyers or legal representatives, let me say something that perhaps we ought to have said a lot earlier.  It is inevitable that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is very well known but I think we should use that name and not Winnie out of respect and I'm sorry we haven't made that point earlier.
 I know that this name does appear like that in statements and therefore it's a bit difficult but wherever possible, I think that we should maintain the dignity of these proceedings and I'd be grateful if everybody would hear that, thank you.
 Now, who's next?  Nobody, wonderful.  No questions?  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Sorry Chairperson.
 Sir, at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela you described the holding of certain disciplinary proceedings which could be described as the conduct of Disciplinary Committees, now how did these work?  Was there a Chairman or a secretary?

MR NTOMBENI: Some of the orders came from the late Sizwe Sithole, he used to tell us that this one deserves to be disciplined and assaulted.

MR RICHARD: And who played secretary to the Committee?

MR NTOMBENI: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: In your statement you say - sorry, not you, a future witness that is Mr Madonzela, says the football club was supposedly ended in the first half of 1987, isn't it correct to say that all other activities except the playing of football continued?

MR NTOMBENI: Could you repeat your questions?

MR RICHARD: After the supposed disbanding of the football team sometime in April and May 1987, what went on?

MR NTOMBENI: That is what the people thought but within the yard a club still existed, nothing was burnt down, everything existed and was very much intact.

MR RICHARD: And things continued as normal, is that correct?

MR NTOMBENI: Definitely.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
 Just one question, sorry ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: I'm sorry, just before - because I think you would like to be last on that side, would you just say your name again, I didn't quite catch the first half.

MS NICOLE: Yes, thank you, it's Nicole ..(inaudible) for Mr Mbatha.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, please proceed.

MS NICOLE: Thank you, I just have two questions.
 Can you please tell us again, what was the purpose of creating the soccer club?

MR NTOMBENI: Bone Vega said: "Guys, we should form a club so that we are able keep ourselves busy and not loiter around the streets".

MS NICOLE: So it was to play soccer and organise matches?

MR NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MS NICOLE: So when did your purpose change from being a soccer club to becoming a torture club?

DR BORAINE: I wonder if you wouldn't mind re-phrasing that, that's pretty harsh language.  Just say again please?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, I also want to say that I fail to see the present attorney's relevance to her client, how are these questions relevant to her client?

DR BORAINE: Would you like to comment?

MS NICOLE: You are correct, it is of no absolute relevance to our client but I am interested to know and I assume I have got the right to know.

DR BORAINE: Well, I'll be grateful if you will retain relevance particularly on behalf of the person you're representing because we've got a lot of work to do and if you could confine yourself to a slightly different language I'd be grateful.

MS NICOLE: Okay.  Well, there's no need to answer my question then.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, does that conclude your questions?

MS NICOLE: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I just ask you two questions, the first is that you told us that Tobogo came to tell you that he'd been sent to kill you, why did he tell you that he'd been sent to kill you?

MR NTOMBENI: As we were fighting Imzimshlope - we were fighting the hostel guys and Tobogo was taking orders from me as I was his commander at that time in Imzimshlope within our structure.

MR UNTERHALTER: Various questions were put to you about a relative of Sizwe Sithole and whether such a person exists, you referred to that person as Signet, is it possible that the relative of Sithole's name is Sanele?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I think it's Sanele.

MR UNTERHALTER: That is what Lerothodi Ikaneng will say the name of the relative of Mr Sithole was, does that fit with what you know?