Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

MR RAUTENBACH: No.  I'll tell you why your answer is totally, totally irrelevant, it is because it's not about your mind-set on the day of the conversation, it's about your mind-set after the murder was committed.  This time it was different, this time Janine said she's going to sink the Security Branch, this time she was dead.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, which also makes ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Now I'm asking you again ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... it's also another point, what made me think it was again a political murder done by colleagues.  I never ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: So you see, it's a whole factor of things, I can't think of all of the things.

MR RAUTENBACH: So let's just get back to what you've just told me.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, this time she's murdered, she's these threats and of course there was a factor in your mind that made you think, that made you think, wasn't it he Security Police, am I correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, you see it's a whole fact, it's a whole lot of things, it's ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: A whole lot of factors.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... it's not one thing that made me ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Will you agree with me, Mrs White, that that was a very important factor?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, it probably was.

MR RAUTENBACH: Most probably the most important factor, correct, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: If you put it from that point but not for me from all the other conversations and all the other times I'd spent with Janine.

MR RAUTENBACH: Ja, but I'm saying, the most important factor as far as your suspicions that the Security Police murdered her.  That is what I'm putting to you, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, it would probably would have helped formulate my idea.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.  If that is so, then the question that begs an answer is why when you got this shocking news, as I said it must have been a shock to your system, that your brother is a suspect, wasn't that, that first meeting with Beyleveld when he wanted a meeting and now your brother is a suspect, the time to say to him;  wait a bit, wait a bit, I think you've got the wrong guy, I have information.  Let me tell you, let me tell you what the deceased told me a couple of days before she was murdered, she wanted to sink the Security Branch.  Why didn't you say that?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Because as I explained to you the first time that Detective Beyleveld came down it had nothing to do with that, he wanted a statement from me to the events of the Saturday morning, he really wanted the statement got done with.  The only time the investigation started becoming serious with me, or I was asked any serious questions, was the first time when Detective Steyn and Beyleveld came down together to my house.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: And at that time, I mean I'm sure - I saw Detective Steyn here this morning, I'm sure he will back up the fact that I even mentioned to him the fact that I personally thought it was the Security Branch and Mike's colleagues that had committed the murder.

MR RAUTENBACH: That was a much later stage, and we'll get to that point.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Oh, okay.

MR RAUTENBACH: Let's back to my question.  My question is the following, my question is just this, when you told us of course it was a shock to your system, when  you in December with Beyleveld realised that he's a suspect and that is why you had to make a statement.  My first question is - we'll deal with the other occasion, why not at this very first occasion did you say to him;  you know I had a phone call with her, I think it's the Security Police, it's not him, you may be after the wrong guy?  Why not?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I don't know.  Maybe I did mention it, maybe I didn't mention it.  Things like that were never followed up.

MR RAUTENBACH: Are you saying ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Even when I mentioned it to Detective Steyn, that was never followed up or followed through.

MR RAUTENBACH: Are you saying you might have mentioned that to Steyn but he never followed it up?  I'm not talking about - I'm talking about not even the fact that you at that stage, that your belief was that the Security Police were responsible for it, I'm talking about the conversation.  That conversation with Janine a couple of days before her death, did you ever mention that to them?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I don't think I ever mentioned it.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs White, what impression did you form about this threat that the deceased was making, did you form the impression that it was an idle sort of threat, it was one of the many?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: At the time when the conversation was made to me, yes, I did think it was a fairly idle threat, or a threat that wouldn't be followed through.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you form the impression that she would do what she threatened to do within a matter of days, almost immediately or within a matter of days?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I must be very honest with you, I don't think that I even thought much about it in that sense.  Afterwards when I discussed it with my brother I didn't even discuss it with my brother in the sense of what she had told me, it was more to ask him whether he was leaving.  I was more interested in the fact that he might be leaving the Security Branch and getting into a normal, into normal work instead of working for the police.  That was more of a concern to me than the other threats that were made.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you form an impression as to when she intended giving effect to this threat?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I did.  I formed the impression that she intended doing it in - I don't want to specifically say a day, but I definitely formed the impression she was going to do it within the next couple of days.

CHAIRPERSON: So I mean it was serious, wasn't it?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, but I didn't actually take it that seriously at the time.  I did not think it was a very serious issue, coming you know, considering all the other phone calls and the other, the times we had spoken before and threats that had been made before.  So for me it wasn't.  That - as I say, that wasn't the most important issue for me and that wasn't the issue or the reason why I even spoke to my brother about it, it was more the issue of him leaving the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but was wasn't that discussion the reason why you raised the possible leaving the Security Branch with your brother?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I actually - the conversation started by me asking him: "Are you leaving the Security Branch?"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now why did you do that?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Because Janine said that she had been making threats as well about it, and that would he be leaving the Security Branch, basically, I suppose based on those threats and maybe that's what my brother thought, I'm not too sure.  But she said to me unless he left the Security Branch, she would be doing this.  And I have no idea what kind of relationship they had according to that or what their discussion were on that.

CHAIRPERSON: But could it have been any other reason than the discussion that you've had with the deceased that prompted to raise this question with your brother?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Not really, she had been wanting him to leave for a long time, even when they, you know when they'd come down to visit she was always going on about him leaving the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: So it must have been that conversation with the deceased, that prompted you?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: That prompted me to speak to my brother?

CHAIRPERSON: About this particular question of leaving the Security Branch.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Oh yes, it was that particular conversation, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rautenbach?