Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: That was my brother.  20 April 1990.  But the intention was to prepare a book for the Harms Commission because I knew in words I was going struggle, in rules I was up against a mountain.

MR MOOSA: So you had this manuscript ready before the hearing at the Harms Commission?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

MR MOOSA: You had this manuscript ready before the Harms Commission?

WITNESS:   Up to page 124, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: /The one

MR MOOSA: The one thing about the evidence you're giving is in most instances we don't have any corroboration, certainly on the Khondile issue.

WITNESS:   Yes.  I think from a layman's point of view not easily detected, because we were not actually in the habit of performing our crimes in a way to restage it in a court case later, but exactly to the effect to wipe out any possible tracks.  But I think with a little bit of effort, as from the Swazi Police for instance, one will be able to find out that they did in fact a month or two or three after, say the end of October/beginning November, that they did pick up the Datsun Stanza in Swaziland, and - ja, that's about all.  And except for the fact that at the police station at Jeffreys Bay surely some of those policemen must have seen that Mr Sizwe Khondile's car, the car of Chris Hani, was held there, and that he was detained in the single quarters.

MR MOOSA: You have said that you would like one day to meet Mrs Khondile and look her in the eye.

WITNESS:   I would like to do that in future, yes, Sir.

MR MOOSA: Mrs Khondile asks me to convey to you that that is an honour that she feels you do not deserve, and that if you were really remorseful you would have not applied for amnesty, but in fact stood trial for what you did with her son.

WITNESS:   I will honour her feelings as far as not wanting to see me.  I can understand it.  I would have felt exactly the same I suppose.  And as far as the amnesty application is concerned, I think those days where the minority whacked the majority, the tail the dog, is something of the past, and that the Peace and Reconciliation Act was constructed by all walks of life,

MR MOOSA: /all parties

MR MOOSA: all parties represented, and I think I am entitled as anyone else not to be isolated and looked at alone in single context, but in total to the right of the laws of this land, as any other individual that is involved, and according to that laws I then applied when the amnesty came up.

MR MOOSA: Thank you, no further questions.

MR MOOSA: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, did you - in any of the cases you're applying for amnesty did you in fact assault persons, because you're always a bystander looking at, not taking part?

WITNESS:   Yes, I was in all the cases, that's correct.

MR DE JAGER: You never participated yourself?

WITNESS:   No.  I was present in some of these instances.  I was in command, so I am just as responsible as the person that pulled the trigger, Mr Chairman.   And if the truth comes out from other sources it will be proven exactly that that is the truth.  I did not assault or pull the trigger on anyone. And as I say, through that I don't want to distance myself, or pretend that I am not guilty.  I was there.  It's just the situation was as such that I was a superior, and there was enough juniors who volunteered.

MR DE JAGER: I find it rather peculiar that you were always present, but you never take the blame in far as the actual deeds are concerned.  You're taking the secondary blame of standing by and sort of looking on, but you never participated yourself.

WITNESS:   Mr Chairman, this is unfortunately the facts as it - as things happened.  As in the Sizwe Khondile case, where I was the third most senior officer.  Major Archie Flemington was above me, Colonel

MR DE JAGER: /Nick van

MR DE JAGER: Nick van Rensburg was above, and not one of them doped Mr Sizwe Khondile, or helped him onto the pyre - his body and his remains onto the pyre of tyres and wood, or shot him, or during the night turned what was left of the remains in the fire.  Not one of them, so it was nothing unusual.  So is was nothing unusual.  It is the facts that as it happened.

MR DE JAGER: So it's not unusual the officers giving the orders and the underlings they should carry it out.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: And you ordered them and they carried out your orders.

WITNESS:   In my presence, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you learn of the fact that the vehicle that was found at Jeffreys Bay, the Datsun Stanza, belonged to Chris Hani?

WITNESS:   It was told to me in exile, if I remember correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it was only at that stage?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Not whilst you were involved in the matter.

WITNESS:   That the Stanza vehicle Sizwe Khondile drove belonged to Mr Chris Hani.

CHAIRPERSON: During the time that Khondile was being held or questioned in your presence was he implicated with the activities of Chris Hani?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  As I say at ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

WITNESS:   Not at all, no, Mr Chairman.   Only what I knew about the story is what I've written of documents that was filed at the Harms Commission, and that I had insight to in preparing for this hearing, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever find out what Mr Khondile was by

CHAIRPERSON: /occupation?

CHAIRPERSON: occupation?

WITNESS:   No, I did not.  I lately learned from the Japanese film team that he was something in the law.  I think they said he was studying something to the effect of law, if I remember correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?  Mr Mshe.  Sorry.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: QUESTIONED BY MR MSHE

MR MSHE: Mr Coetzee, your letter on page 125, which you wrote to Mr Jacob Zuma, what - why did you have to write him a letter?  Any links with him?

WITNESS:   This was the first man when I left the country on the 5th of November 1989, and went with Jacques Paux to Mauritius.  I left on the 8th of November for London, and I was introduced to two gentlemen of the ANC, and the first two was Jacob Zuma and J J Njele, who's our Ambassador at the United Nations at the moment.

MR MSHE: Did you have any prior dealings with him before being introduced to him?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  I think his involvement at the stage, if I have it correctly, was the intelligence chief of the ANC.  I think so.

MR MSHE: Now, at the time of - at that time of Khondile what was your rank?

WITNESS:   Captain.  I was a captain.

MR MSHE: Was there another Coetzee at that time who was a lieutenant-colonel?

WITNESS:   No.  Mr Chairman, I think there was - the person that followed me up at Vlakplaas was a Captain Jan Coetzee, who during the Harms Commission was Lieutenant-Colonel Jan Coetzee.  And then of course at John Vorster Square there's a Colonel Willem Coetzee, who we called Timol Coetzee as a result of his alleged involvement in the death of Timol, Mr Timol.

MR MSHE: Did you know of any Lieutenant-Colonel Coetzee who

MR MSHE: /was based

MR MSHE: was based in Bloemfontein?

WITNESS:   Oh yes, the - I think he was the Regional Security Chief of the Free State at that stage, and shortly thereafter was transferred to, I think, Cape Town, if I can remember correctly.

MR MSHE: Did you have anything to do with the car that Khondile drove?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  I never touched the wheel.  On its way from Jeffreys Bay to Komatipoort Colonel Nick van Rensburg handed the car to Ermelo Security, who did the driving into Swaziland and parked it there, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: But you saw the car yourself?

WITNESS:   I saw it.  I saw it in Jeffreys Bay, that's correct.

MR MSHE: Now, can you tell us how long was Khondile in detention before his cremation?