Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now from what I gather from the statement in paragraph 3, page 11, you say that you definitely recognised a man called Mzala and as I read that statement as a whole, he was the man that was wearing this orange coloured jacket, is that correct?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I said I identified him as wearing that jacket and I identified him to be perhaps the same person as Mzala.

MR BLACK: No, you said you definitely immediately recognised this man as Mzala.  Are you aware of the fact that Mzala was arrested for this offence?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I disagree with that.

MR BLACK: I put it to you that Mzala was arrested and acquitted on these counts, do you know anything about that?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I would like to explain to you what I know.  You are saying I saw him.  I am saying here, the person looked like Mzala and they asked me the same question in court and I indicated to them that I only recognised him and thought of him as Mzala.
	Mzala himself came to my home to ask me why I had mistaken him for the people who were shooting.  I indicated to him that I had mistaken him for the people who were shooting because of the jacket similar to the one he has.

MR BLACK: Okay, no, but the point I'm getting at is just that Mzala was arrested and acquitted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Why make the point Mr Black.

MR BLACK: I just want to clear this up, who Mzala is because it was kept on ...[indistinct] to some.  I'll move onto the next issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't Mzala come and say he was party to the shooting?

MR BLACK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then he's not before this Committee?

MR BLACK: Yes.
	If I just carry on.  If we just move down your statement, say at paragraph 6, let's get to that paragraph.  In paragraph 5 you said you went into Mr Mhlango's shop okay?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And you go on in paragraph 6 that you noticed that you had blood mark on your rear side of your thigh and Mr Mhlango then telephoned the police and the police arrived, you see that?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, I do see that and that is correct.

MR BLACK: You then say that when you came out of the shop then you found that Chris was lying on a piece of open ground in front of the shop and I assume that this is the shop that you'd run into, that's Mr Mhlango's shop?  That's how the statement reads.

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: No, that's not the shop, I would like to explain to you.  The one shop in front of which he fell belonged a certain teacher, not Mhlango's shop.  Mhlango's shop is the one to which I fled but he fell in front of another shop.  I don't know whether you understand.

MR BLACK: No, that's what I wanted to clear up, that's all I'm trying to do because that's the, you know this is the statement that was written down, possibly by the police, that you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR BLACK: Yes, that's all thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else?

MR PATEL: I have a few questions Mr Chair.
	Miss Nkambule, before I commence any cross-examination, I've been asked by the applicants whom I represent to apologise to you for what happened to you and also to apologise to any other people that have testified before you as victims.
	Insofar as what you say, I'm a bit confused as to how things happened.  Do you understand compass points, north, south, east and west?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on Mr Patel, maybe I can cut this whole thing short.
	In relation to you throwing away that pot that you were carrying, do you know when Chris was injured?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I have already explained that I don't know when he really got hurt, what I realised was that he was already lying down, shots were being fired ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: When you threw the pot away?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I threw the pot away when I felt something on my leg, I three the pot and I fled.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the time you turned around and you saw that Chris was lying on the ground?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I gain the impression that you felt this discomfort after being injured, not necessarily at the exact time you were injured but maybe a couple of seconds or a minute or so afterwards, am I correct?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you ran a few metres after feeling this initial discomfort and then you threw this pot away?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I threw the pot away when I felt something touching me and I ran away not feeling any pain for some time.  I only realised that I was hurt when I got into the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope that has cut down a bit of the questioning Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	650 Motopeng Street, this incident took place in Motopeng Street, am I correct?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I would like to differ before answering.  Initially when you spoke to me you said you have been delegated to apologise on behalf of these people, which signs have they indicated to you, if at all, that they are really sorry and they would like to apologise?

MR PATEL: Will you answer the question?  Will you answer my question?  Did this incident take place in Motopeng Street?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.  I am not being impossible, I just want you to answer my question.

MR PATEL: I am here to ask the questions, you are here to answer them.  Do you know where 650 Motopeng Street is?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: ...[no English translation]

MR PATEL: I didn't get the translation.

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I just want to explain to you, maybe you are confused.  I just indicated to you that I don't know the numbers, the reason being that I had not stayed there for a very long time, that's why I don't know the numbers.

MR PATEL: If I understand you correctly, there was one assailant on either side of the group of three ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, can I just ask a question, does what this witness says, does that destroy what your client said?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, this witnesses evidence contradicts what my clients say with regard to her injuries and the death of Lindiwe insofar as she attempts to put them further from Mr Ngwenya who was the target, who my clients, my client's version is that, one of my client's version, is that they were hit accidentally.  This witnesses version is to put before the Commission that that version is not correct and that in fact they were hit intentionally.  That is the impression I get from the evidence that has been led and put before the Commission.

ADV SANDI: But Mr Patel, if one is speaking in terms of the chronology of events, what happened to whom and at what stage specifically, I think she says she is unable to say at what stage Chris got hurt.  She threw the pot away and when she turned she saw Chris lying on the ground.  How does that destroy the version of your client?

MR PATEL: As I understood her evidence to be, even after the pot was discarded you had shots being fired.  This is how I understood her evidence to be and Chris had already fallen.  If I'm mistaken in that then I'm mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there shots after you threw the pot away?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, they continued shooting.  I got into the shop and the gunfire continued.

ADV SANDI: And where was Chris at that stage?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: He was already lying down.  One other thing that I'd like to explain here is that Mr Gushu, as Mr Patel is explaining, Mr Gushu says we were accidentally shot and if that is the case they ought not to have shot me because I had already fled.  They should have let me go when I was fleeing, they were not supposed to do anything to me.
	They shot me at a time when I was a distance away from Chris, that cannot be a mistake.  If that was a mistake, really they were not supposed to continue shooting at me.