Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

MR MALAN: I wonder whether I may interrupt you.  We don't have unlimited time and I want you to deal with the crucial
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things.  I think the point you made is taken as a point in principle.  We don't want to get involved in judgment on the facts or particulars but won't you share with us then your knowledge or your involvement in human rights violations to the extent that it might have been in the same way that you demand of other witnesses to be open or are you telling us that you have no knowledge of such activities, that you weren't involved at any stage?  Would you respond on that basis.

MR MAHLANGU: Thank you, Chair.  Let me state as I have stated right from the beginning, I have no such knowledge.  I was never involved.  That is why I said anybody who has personal knowledge by way of having seen me doing any gross violation of human rights either to him personally or seen me doing it to someone else is free to come forward and testify against me.  Thank you very much.

MR MALAN: May I just bring you back to the organisational side.  Are you also saying you have no knowledge of anybody under your influence or control through the organisation ...

MR MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question sir.

MR MALAN: Let me start with another question.

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were you in these days still a member of Mbcoto?  This is now ...

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, I don't wish to answer that question for the simple reason that a perception ran through from the 12th August 1986 after the then speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Kwandebele Mr Solly Mathango had said that he declares Mbcoto an organisation unacceptable to the people.  That Mbcoto no longer existed.  Now for me, Chair, to come and say today Mbcoto does exist, legally it does of course
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because it was never - it remained intact but I mean it is not for me to say that again.  I think the people refer to me as a member of Mbcoto until today and I never denied to anybody that I was ever been a member because I was until such time that certain people from the groups molested people during that time calling themselves - that was also investigated by this Chris van Niekerk who has to come and testify.  It was also investigated and certain weapons ... be against Mbcoto and they will not help us in our struggle.  Fine.  So briefly I don't know whether I did answer your question but what I would like to say, sir, what I would like to prefer is that I don't say whether or not I am still a member of Mbcoto.

MR MALAN: May I ask, are you saying, when you refer to certain people organising themselves under the name Mbcoto you had no link with them?

MR MAHLANGU: No, I had no link with them.

MR MALAN: But you certainly had a knowledge.

MR MAHLANGU: I had no link with them.  In fact I opposed whatever they did.

MR MALAN: Are you prepared to share those names with the Commission at some later stage?

MR MAHLANGU: No.  No, Chair.

MR MALAN: I think we may need that.  We will consider whether we will come back to you and expect of you an answer of that.

MR MAHLANGU: No, fine.  Fine, sir.

MR MALAN: Is there anything else that you want to say on this?  Or would you prefer us to put some questions to you?

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, I would prefer the Chair to put questions to me.
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MR MALAN: Right.  I am not going to use much of your time.  I mean you have made a statement clearly that you weren't involved.  You have heard some of the people giving evidence here.  You heard people today saying I saw him with my own eyes doing it.  You have the opportunity to respond to that.  I mean it was said before the full community, before the hall, which is what you wanted.  You said if people have evidence or facts let them say it here and I will respond to it here. This witness said this morning I saw it with my own eyes. I put the question to him. Do you want to respond to that at this stage or do you want to withhold your opportunity?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, Chair, thank you very much for that.  I would like to respond to that.  I think the very same - the two witnesses which I saw here who did mention my name, one of them in the Supreme Court during I think 1991 or so, did later on under cross-examination admit that he was told to say that.  So this I regard as fabrications which were already dealt with in the court of law, in the Supreme Court in Pretoria.  So, Chair, that is as far as how I can respond to that.

MR MALAN: On that score we will certainly get the court record and we will see if we can get a transcription either to confirm or deny your statement about him having - and this is what you said - he acknowledged that he didn't see you, he was told to say so.

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I think ...

MR MALAN: And that is on record in the Supreme Court.

MR MAHLANGU: That is on record.  He even said he was - the people took him that very same morning and brought him to court.  He did not know.  He did not bear any personal
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knowledge of all these things that he was being asked of there.

MR MALAN: It is clear that we will have to take some action if we can establish this one way or another.

MR MAHLANGU: Thank you, Chair.

MR MALAN: I don't think there is much that I would like to pursue at this stage.  We will certainly have to have an opportunity of sitting down, canvassing a number of individual issues but I don't think this is the opportunity for that.

MR MAHLANGU: Thank you, sir.

MR MALAN: There may be other questions though.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mahlangu we appreciate the comments that you have made, especially the comments around reconciliation, that that can only happen if the truth is known.  You said that there was a conflict.  This conflict was twofold.  On the one side there was the issue of incorporation.  You said that this incorporation was forced down the throats of the people of Moutse.  Now did you oppose that incorporation during the period when you were in the Legislative Assembly? Or because of the issue of independence supported it.  What was your role in that particular conflict?  Your direct role?

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, I was not directly involved in opposing or being for at that stage because for the simple reason that because during 1976 I did mention to their president Mayiso II that I foresee problems in as far as the creation of a homeland is concerned because I don't see how can we somewhere along the line turn back and convince the government of the Republic of South Africa that we do not want to opt for independence because this thing is only one
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way.  Once you start embarking on it you go until you become independent.  And people reject this concept.  He said to me no but you are a fool blah blah blah blah, independence is good in this or that way and so on.  I said to him remember I am not saying anything whether it is not for you a beautiful thing or not but I am telling you people are disappearing, people are being detained, people are being killed, people are in exile and so on.  Opposing the whole system.  The system is wrong.  And then we argued that and then I felt from that argument, sir, that it would be quite a futile thing for me to start trying to oppose this because I would just be like a person who is going against the storm.  Thanks.

RUSSELL ALLY: I just want to get this absolutely clear, Mr Mahlangu.  You said that you felt that independence was futile.  Now did you ever change your position on the question of independence, not because of what may have been said to you by somebody else but you yourself politically, did you ever change your position on independence where you believed that independence was a necessary thing and something which had to be pursued?