Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I was a foot soldier in Tanzania.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you belong to any platoon?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I went for training as a soldier and I was a soldier.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know what a platoon is?  A soldier must know what a platoon is?  You don't know?  If you don't know we'll pass on, we'll go to other questions.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: A platoon is a soldier.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You don't know, let's pass on.  If you don't know, you don't know.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: No I do not know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in 1976, that was the year APLA, in 1976 who was the commander of APLA in 1976.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Zulu.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was Zulu.  It was his real name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And in 1978?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: 1978 I was coming back into the country from exile.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was who was the commander of APLA in 1978, do you know?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The commander that I knew was Biza.  It was commander ...(inaudible) it was Zulu.  During 1976 then it was Biza.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was Biza's name?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I know his comrade's name.  We used to call him Biza at the camp.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's take it further.  Was Biza in the country or outside the country at that time if any Biza existed?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: He was inside the camp.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know a person by the name of Ntandala?  T.M. Ntandala?  You should be knowing him, do you know him?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: No I do not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you sure?  If I say to you T.M. Ntandala was the commander of APLA, what would you say to me.  At that time when you joined?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I wouldn't dispute that but the commander that I knew was Zulu and Biza.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright.  Let's move further on in 1978, I going to ask you simple things.  The leadership of the PAC in 1978.  I will help you.  In '78 after Butla Bolibalo and others, PAC formed what they called a triumvirate do you recall that in '78?  They made up the leadership.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now who were the members of the triumvirate that made up the actual leadership of PAC, the members, just the names?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what a triumvirate is?  It's a committee of three.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I have forgotten their names.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If given time will you remember them?  Because to me they are important.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I know of Zulu, Tshabalala the high commander as well as Dan Mofokeng?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Dan Mofokeng?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The local and the current MEC for Local Government in the Gauteng Province?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he PAC?  Dan Mofokeng?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you sure about it sir?  Was Dan Mofokeng not ANC?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I'm not referring to Dan Mofokeng the ANC member, I'm referring Uvumaro, he's comrade name was Ramaro, he was a PAC member, I'm not referring to Dan Mofokeng the ANC member.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So those are the names you know that made up the PAC leadership in 1978?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the answer, Mr Mpshe?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: And Sam Palma?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Sabelo Palma.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm going to do that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but now you've given us four names.  The question was do you know who the members of the triumvirate were in 1978.  The triumvirate is three, now you've said it's Zulu, Tshabalala, Dan Mofokeng, his comrade name was Romaro and also Sabelo Palma, that's four?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: According to my memory, if it serves me well, these are the people that I do remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay.  Do you know the person by the name of David Sebeko?  It was around '78?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I do not remember him, maybe I know him by comrade name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the person by the name of Vusi Makhe?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: No I don't, I probably know him by the comrade name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the person by the name of Mtwedi Beki, he is currently in Mmabatho now?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what was that surname, Beki?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Vusi Makhe.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no the second one, the last one you mentioned?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The last one, Mtwedi Beki.  To help you, he is currently in Mmabatho, Council of Mmabatho, City Council?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I do not know him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let me inform you, these three people I have mentioned to you, they formed the leadership of PAC in 1978 and they formed what we called the triumvirate.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Chair, to be fair to the witness, wouldn't you say where these people, the committee of three, the triumvirate were stationed because we must know the evidence before us is that he was in Tanzania and you would recall that at a stage Sebeko was in America, so we must be very clear about that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't know how to put it to him but I can respond to that.

ADV MOTATA: I don't want that, I want you to tell him because the evidence before us is that he was trained in Tanzania.  From Tanzania he came back to South Africa so that when you called the triumvirate, the so called leadership, where was this leadership based, that's very important.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Correct.  Is it not so that if you are a member, no I won't say if you're a member, as a member of PAC and APLA for that matter, you are to know the leadership of your organisation?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes that is correct but I did not know them very well at that time, I only knew my commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it not so that some of the leadership of PAC, during those times some of them were on the ground in the country and some were based outside the country?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct, some were in Robben Island, some were outside the country.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes and some would get you, if you remember, would receive instructions via your commanders coming from Zimbabwe, is it not so, where the leadership would have been?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: During 1976 Zimbabwe was still under the leadership of the settlers or under the governance of the settlers so we did not have bases during 1976.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll leave it at that.  I'll tell you Mr Nkabinde why I'm asking all these questions about the leadership at the time when you joined and even further down after you'd joined, but perhaps before I do that, let me ask you one final question.  Did you ever read the doctrine and the beliefs of PAC, do you know them?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What are the beliefs of PAC, just one?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It's for us to get back our land from the settlers.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good and I want to put to you that we know of repossession units, not so?  You know about repossession units as well?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good and the repossession units had commanders, that you know, not so?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now to which unit did you belong?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was the repossession unit, the one I am with at the moment.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was it's code name?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: B2, BB2, Beauty Salon or Platoon.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's get clarity, is it platoon unit or BB2 unit or Beauty Salon unit?  You mentioned three things?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was a repossessing unit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I know and thanks for that.  What was it's code name, that's all that I want?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: B2 Saloon.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: B2 Saloon?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes it was B2 Saloon.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll leave it at that.  No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.