Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-29

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairman while I am listening to this discussion I never resigned at any stage.  I was told that the CCB disbanded and when I returned from holiday after the two weeks I was transferred to DCC.  I remained in the Defence Force.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard I will put it to you that Mr Verster was told by General Badenhorst to take you up into the CCB.  It was against his knowledge but he was forced to do it and the first time when you broke the rules you were discharged.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is not correct. I read somewhere that Joe Verster made a statement, that I hope is a printing error, that he said I was part of the CCB for three months as a trial period.  That is so absurd I do not even want to react on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a point just out of interest what was the highest rank you held in the police force?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson I wrote exams up to lieutenant's level but I waited for my promotion.  I was a detective when the bomb exploded with the first shooting incident.  I did write the exams and I was waiting for my promotion.  It was held back and I was then charged with the murders.

CHAIRPERSON: So what were you, a warrant officer?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was qualified as a warrant officer but I had the rank of a sergeant.

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant, yes, thank you.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard when you went to the DCC what was your rank?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir I never received a rank there.  I was appointed as an agent and I was handled as an agent, and when they were satisfied with the work that I did they told me that I would get a possible promotion.  I also wrote a report on it and I said I do not want to be an informer for the rest of my life, I want to make a career of it and I was then appointed as the chief agent.  They never gave me a military rank.

MR WESSELS: And you were only an agent?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes I was an agent and later chief agent.

MR WESSELS: When were you released from prison for the murders and other offences that you were sent to jail for in 1984?

FERDINAND BARNARD: December 1987.

MR WESSELS: And then you went to work for ACA Insurance Company?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And after you left there what did you do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is when the CCB recruited me.

MR WESSELS: I see.  Did you have any finances, did you have any money at that point in time?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Chairperson I had nothing.  I didn't have a lot of money as such.

MR WESSELS: The only money that you had was what you earned via your income from the CCB.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Where would you have obtained the money to purchase Mitchell's house?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was told at a certain stage that I would be assisted, that the CCB would assist me in obtaining a deposit for the house but I didn't get it from them, I paid it in payments.

MR WESSELS: How much did you pay?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I can no longer recall.  I cannot recall the deposit that I paid.  There was an amount of a R10,000 and then an amount of R90,000.  I am not precisely certain.

MR WESSELS: What was the sale price of the house?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think it was R128,000 but I am not certain.  I really cannot recall those particulars today.

MR WESSELS: And until when did you stay in that house?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I sold the house after I was arrested.

MR WESSELS: You sold it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes after I was arrested.  In order to cover some of my legal expenses I sold the house.

MR WESSELS: So you had considerable expenses during 1989 and 1990?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes I had expenses, I don't know what you would regard as considerable.  I bought the house on a Deed of Sale, in other words I gave a deposit and then an arrangement was made with regard to the payments between me and Mr Mitchell.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard while you were in prison you were visited by Mr Botha on a regular basis, once a month so-to-speak.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes that is correct.  I have a restricted number of visits, only three per month, and usually it wasn't that way I usually had one visit of 45 minutes per month in C-Max, but as I progressed to A Group in two years time I have privileges of three visits per month and that is why I divide the visits up among those who wish to see me.  But Mr Botha who supports me loyally visits me twice a month.  If he wants to visit me twice a month I will grant him two visitations.  Even if he wants three visitations I will do so because he's a friend of mine.

MR WESSELS: When did you tell Mr Botha that you were going to disclose the facts that the CCB had given you the instruction to shoot Dr Webster dead?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I only took that decision here due to the events that took place here.  I wasn't planning on disclosing any information here, among others with our first session here I sent Joe Verster a message not to worry that I wasn't going to testify about Webster, that I wouldn't answer questions about it, that was my attitude.  And the following day he sat down next to me and said that he was very glad to hear about it but that I should "fuck up" the General.  I don't know why he wanted that because we reported to General Webb.  I think the General should be "fucked up" because he didn't give the order.  It's the case of the tail wagging the dog.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard when did you decide to give the evidence that you have given over the last few days?  Upon what occasion did you make that decision?  Was it last week or was it upon the previous occasion that we had session here, when was it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think I formed the set-up on our previous session here.  I started considering it.  I lay awake at night.  I reconsidered everything and I decided I wanted to get rid of this mess.

MR WESSELS: And when did you decide that you would indeed follow through with this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot tell you specifically.  I don't know.

MR WESSELS: Can you not give us an approximation, tell us whether it was last week or a day after the previous session.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think it was approximately with the previous session because I told my attorney that I would not be testifying from my application.  I had a feeling about the matter, I prayed about it and I felt that I wanted to disclose everything.

MR WESSELS: You wanted to disclose everything?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell Botha about it when he came to visit you in prison since the previous session?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: So he knew that you were going to disclose or expose everything?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And before the previous session you had not planned to make any kind of exposure?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I don't really understand you, could you repeat yourself.

MR WESSELS: You were not planning to testify here that Verster and Luitingh had given you the instruction to shoot Dr Webster dead and everything that went along with that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No.  I only took the decision when I decided to turn around and tell the truth.  Originally I had typed out a version for myself, a version that I wrote and typed out in which I supported Slang van Zyl in all aspects regarding his evidence and was not prepared to answer any other questions beyond the framework of that statement, and then the events to which I referred to yesterday took place and systematically I started changing my mind and I decided to come and tell the truth.  That is what happened.

MR WESSELS: And when you decided with the previous session that you would not bring the same evidence that everybody expected you to, did you warn anyone or did you tell anyone that this was going to happen?