Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Ndzeku you say that this group of vigilante of which David Mayeko was a member, would you say there was any authority that controlled them or gave them instructions?

ANSWER: I won't know of the authority behind their actions.

<UNKNOWN>: : Would you regard them perhaps as just a gang of criminals terrorising the township?

ANSWER: I would rather say they were just a group, a gang of thugs.

<UNKNOWN>: : Names like Scarface and more specifically a
1.	person /...
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person called Constable Nkonsa, does it make any sense to you?

ANSWER: Constable Nkonsa I know.

<UNKNOWN>: : How do you know Constable Nkonsa in relation to the vigilantes?

ANSWER: He was one of the policemen who were seen to be colluding with the vigilantes.

<UNKNOWN>: : And Scarface?

ANSWER: Scarface as well.

<UNKNOWN>: : How do you come to conclude that they were colluding with the vigilantes, what had you seen?

ANSWER: From the statements that we took from the youth, in collaboration with members of the Human Rights Commission, it became very clear that the police were arming this vigilante group and in many occasions they were seen in their company which led the community to be convinced that they were in cahoots with them.

<UNKNOWN>: : Has you yourself Mr Ndzeku seen the police in the company of this vigilante group?

ANSWER: On many occasions.

<UNKNOWN>: : On many occasions, under what circumstances?

ANSWER: In police vans, in shebeens and some other social gatherings.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you see them in the company of the vigilante just as friends drinking together or perhaps having a  (indistinct) or under what circumstances would you say they were together?

ANSWER: I think I've mentioned already the circumstances.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes you have mentioned them but you have not mentioned what I've said now.   I will repeat, did you see them together just as friends or as people bent on doing
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something (indistinct).

ANSWER: They were moving together, personally I haven't seen them committing any action or act together.
MR (?):: I'm always surprised, not that I'm inhibiting your cross-examination, it always baffles me that witnesses are expected to, in support of an allegation with the police, are always expected to, almost expected to say that we did see these people actually committing an offence with the police.   How can the policeman ever openly and publicly commit crimes in collusion with criminals?   I'm not referring to your question in particular, it's just a general observation.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Ndzeku do you a person by the name of Captain Van Graan, he was mentioned by Fortuin?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: : What do you know about him in relation to the vigilante group?

ANSWER: What I know was that he was a Captain at the local police station, at the Welfortuin(?) police station.   Personally I haven't seen him in the company of the said group.

<UNKNOWN>: : You may not have seen him but do you know of any relationship between Captain Van Graan and the vigilante group?

ANSWER: Not directly.

<UNKNOWN>: : Ngcube yesterday when he was asked about the possession of the gun or the pump gun, he said this was given to him by the ANC executive, do you have any knowledge about this?

ANSWER: No specific knowledge, it might have happened in my absence.
1.	JUDGE /...
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JUDGE WILSON: : His evidence appeared to indicate that this gun was kept by the ANC executive committee and that he was given it on more than one occasion by them.   Was it the practice of the ANC executive committee to keep firearms and to issue them to people?

ANSWER: The executive never kept arms and they were never given to the Youth League in my presence.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Ndzeku did you have two executive committees, one which was in relation to the South African Youth League and probably the one which was for the local branch of the ANC?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it possible therefore that the executive committee which was referred to might have been the one of the South African Youth League?

ANSWER: The ANC Youth League.

<UNKNOWN>: : The ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: It is possible.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you recall the name of a person belonging to the ANC called Nonjepe?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: : To which executive did she belong?

ANSWER: She belonged to the civic association, she was an executive member of the civic association.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is this civic association different from the SDU?

ANSWER: Yes it is.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did the ANC executive have a office in Kusong?

ANSWER: Not an office as a structure.

<UNKNOWN>: : No?

ANSWER: No.
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<UNKNOWN>: /...
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<UNKNOWN>: : To your knowledge did the Youth League have an office?

ANSWER: Now it has, it did not have during that time.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm left with the impression that because of the circumstances of the time the Youth League operated mainly from the informal settlement?

ANSWER: Yes during the period you are referring to now they were actually based in the informal settlement.

<UNKNOWN>: : Probably for reasons of security?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Ndzeku you were the general secretary of the branch, of the ANC branch at the time?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : The fact that the vigilante group was allegedly armed or colluding with the police, did it trouble you, in other words your branch?

ANSWER: Yes it did.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was this matter raised with the police at any time?

ANSWER: On many occasions.

<UNKNOWN>: : Tell us a little bit more, who especially did you direct yourselves to?

ANSWER: What we did we send out a delegation to meet the General, the Commissioner, the area Commissioner in Potchefstroom whose name I am just forgetting now, where the concerns of the community were then raised vis-a-vis the alleged collusion between the police and this vigilante group, but it was always accompanied by denials from the General and some senior police officers.

<UNKNOWN>: : You did not take it up with the local, the then local station commander in Kusong?
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ANSWER: /...
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ANSWER: Our meeting with the General, the area Commissioner was the last resort after we have exhausted all other avenues from the branch or the station commander, the Captains, the Colonels and all other senior officials.

<UNKNOWN>: : They were all denying it?

ANSWER: They denied it.

<UNKNOWN>: : After the initial denials say by the local police station or the station commander, did impressions persist nevertheless that there was such collusions?

ANSWER: Yes they did.

<UNKNOWN>: : After speaking with the General did impressions of collusions cease or they persisted?

ANSWER: Unfortunately the persisted.

<UNKNOWN>: : The statements that you took in collaboration with I believe is it Lawyers for Human Rights?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : From whom did you take those statements, what sort of people?

ANSWER: We were taking, obtaining the statements from the victims of attacks by the police, together with the vigilantes, on the members of the community.

<UNKNOWN>: : What happened to those statements?

ANSWER: They were ultimately used in the courts of law at the cases of harassment, torture and beatings against some members of the police.

<UNKNOWN>: : Civil cases or criminal prosecutions?

ANSWER: It was both the civil and criminal cases.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you able to mention a few names to us of the people who gave...

ANSWER: Yes, a certain Mrs Lomandla.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is she one of the people who made such
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statements?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can she be found as far as you know?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where does she stay?

ANSWER: She stays in Kusong.

<UNKNOWN>: : If one were to contact your office would you be able to give information to locate her?

ANSWER: Yes.