Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR KNIGHT: In your experience as a policeman if the deceased had been 8 m away from you or a very short distance away from you and you opened fire do you think he would have been able to run? What would the effect have been of bullets entering him?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: He could only fall.

CHAIRPERSON: That would have depended on what where the shot was aimed at right?

MR KNIGHT: Yes Mr Chairman. The other thing I wanted to ask you with regard to the initial firing of the shots. Who gave the orders to shoot?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say it was Uncle Mos who gave us the order to shoot because he had already starting shooting. We could not have shot had he not started shooting.

MR KNIGHT: And did you regard that as a lawful command?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As a commander if he has given an order I cannot say no because he had already started shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Uncle Mos or Bra Mos specifically order you to shoot at the deceased?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say Bra Mos did not talk with me alone. What he said was: "Let's shoot to prevent him running away," because he had already started shooting.

MR KNIGHT: Although you were not the person who commenced the shooting or gave the order for the shooting to commence what to your mind must have been the reason for preventing the deceased from escaping?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR KNIGHT: Why was it necessary to shoot the deceased to prevent his escape?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say it was to prevent his escape. Secondly to avoid him increasing the distance between us and also ultimately divulging the information about Shosha.

MR KNIGHT: What would have become of Shosha had the deceased managed to escape and give away the information that she was working with the security police?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It would have been very dangerous for Shosha.

MR KNIGHT: Would she have been able to continue operating in a covert manner that she was?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure whether you understood the question. The question is had Shosha's identity been revealed to the public in general would she have been in a position to continue her duties as an askaris?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No she would not have been able. It would have disturbed the whole process.

MR KNIGHT: In the evidence of Mr Dandala he made a further allegation that you took out a second magazine and then shot further shots at the deceased whilst the deceased was lying on the ground. What is your comment on that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I disagree with that seriously because I had only one magazine. I did not have a second one. What I can say is when we were about to get to him with Bra Mos I took out the magazine out and then took out the cartridge and took it back the magazine and put the magazine back and took the person physically because he we already defeated. That is all I can say. I disagree with him.

MR KNIGHT: So are you saying that you then cleared the round from the chamber after he had - I don't understand what happened there? Did you take your magazine out, clear the round from the chamber and then put the round that was in the chamber back into the magazine?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I took the bullet from the chamber and took it back to the magazine and then returned my gun so that we could arrest this person.

MR KNIGHT: So it is a procedure in making your weapon safe after you fired it so that you don't shoot yourself accidentally?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is an easy way to avoid it having a bullet in front. To keep it safe also.

MR KNIGHT: After the deceased was lying on the ground it was decided to load him into the Hi-Ace that you were driving. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is what we did.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not told us what you did. Did you shoot at the deceased when you told us that Bra Mos said to you, you must shoot at the deceased.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I too shot about 4 bullets at the deceased.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. When you shot the 4 rounds at the deceased was he facing towards you or facing away from you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I was about behind him to the left and Bra Mos was at the right. Dandala was also to his left, that is the deceased left.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you shot at the deceased was he running away from you or was he running towards you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we shot he was running, he was going to a certain house there.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. At that time where was Inspector Dandala? Can you recall?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: At the time of the shooting he too alighted from the car and he was to my left and was in the middle of somewhere and Bra Mos was to our right. We were more or less same distance if you take the distance and Bra Mos was at the extreme right.

MR KNIGHT: So he did not remain in the car? He was alongside you shooting as well?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When I alighted he too followed. The only person who was left at the car was the lady. He was part of those who were chasing that person.

MR KNIGHT: At the time that the deceased fell was he seriously wounded or was he still conscious? What was your observation?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we got to him there were drops of blood at his back. It became apparent that he had been hit.

MR KNIGHT: Was he still alive?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes he was still alive, he was alive.

MR KNIGHT: If I can refer you to page 50 of the bundle, the paginated bundle at paragraph 42 it says
"Captain Mos then drove the kombi to Batandwa's body. He was put in the kombi and taken to the local police station."
Now is it your recollection that this was a police station or because I want to refer you to if you look at that? Or let me ask you this. Is that correct that you took him to the police station and left him there?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say we took him to the police station. Because where we had left him. It did not look like a place with distances between. It looked like an integrated area. It looked like a very near area to us as far as I could see where we left him. It could have been a place we moved from this area this side of the road perhaps to that other side of the road as far as I could see.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did this place look like? Was it a hospital, a mortuary or a police station?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That place appeared to me like a police station. It was at the back, we went via the back of that building. It could have been a police station or a hospital as far as I could see.

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly at that place did you leave him?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: People from that building came to us with a stretcher and they took him from the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you. If I can refer you to page 77 of the paginated bundle. This is the statement given to Inspector Jordaan at the almost in the middle of the page there is a sentence which reads
"Mos and Dandala reported the incident at Nxala police station. After that we took Batandwa to the mortuary. But I am not certain whether it was a state or hospital mortuary."
Do you recall making that statement. Do you understand what has just been read to you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I did not know whether it was a hospital or what.

MR KNIGHT: Have you ever been to Nxala since the incident or prior to that incident?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I did go after the incident if I am not mistaken.

MR KNIGHT: What I want to establish is do you know the area well or not?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't the area of Nxala but I can remember that.

MR KNIGHT: After you had taken the deceased to the hospital where did you proceed to?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: After taking the person to that building we then proceeded to Elliot.

MR KNIGHT: Who proceeded to Elliot?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: All of us in that kombi.