Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I know he stayed here in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, but I don'tknow where exactly.

<UNKNOWN>: ll right. Finally, just to refer you to page 5 of the bundleMr Makoma, I beg your pardon, page 6 of the bundle. The first sentence was readout to you and you said some of it is incorrect and some may have been correct.It is correct that at the time of the attack, you were a standard 8 schoolboy?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: That was correct?

<UNKNOWN>: ut you say it is notcorrect when you said that you were not a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: or the military wingof any other organisation?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: That wasn'tcorrect.

<UNKNOWN>: ut it is correct, isn't it, that it was not the policy of the P

<UNKNOWN>: to perpetrate such attacks?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: That is correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It is correct.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You see what I don't really understandis that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: is part and parcel of the P

<UNKNOWN>: , I know it is the military wing,but it is the same organisation, isn't it? The P

<UNKNOWN>: is the umbrella organisationand it have the junior branches and the military wing?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Would not

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders have received instructions from the leadershipof the P

<UNKNOWN>: not to perpetrate acts of this sort in the light of the fact thatnegotiations were proceeding at Kempton Park?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Will you pleaserepeat your question?

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was part and parcel of the P

<UNKNOWN>: , isthat correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Now I understand that youwere merely a soldier and not an activist in the P

<UNKNOWN>: as such, but what I findhard to understand and maybe you can help me, how it came about that the P

<UNKNOWN>: which was involved in peace negotiations at the time of this attack, had nottold

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: leadership not to do this sort of thing. Do you understand?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, I understand.

<UNKNOWN>: re you able to comment?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, I can make a comment.

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: had powers to go on with the armed strugglefrom the

<UNKNOWN>: ongress that was held by the region of the P

<UNKNOWN>: of South

<UNKNOWN>: frica.

<UNKNOWN>: slong as the

<UNKNOWN>: ongress that didn't hold another meeting to tell the soldiers notto attack, orders were still going on on the ground that we must continue attackingup until the leadership could call another

<UNKNOWN>: ongress and then the members ofthe P

<UNKNOWN>: of all the regions, would take a decision that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: must stop the armedstruggle.

<UNKNOWN>: nd then

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: would stop.

<UNKNOWN>: ecause the leader is a political leadershipwhich is P

<UNKNOWN>: , the mother body.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Thank you.

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Thankyou.

<UNKNOWN>: ny re-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, do you propose calling any other evidence?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, that is the case for the applicants, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. We would like to callMr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman. He has asked me to request Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman that we just have a veryshort recess if possible, just a few moments for me to speak to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a very, very short recess.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thankyou Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

<UNKNOWN>: OMMISSION T

<UNKNOWN>: KES

<UNKNOWN>: SHORT

<UNKNOWN>: DJOURNMENTON RESUMPTION -

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank youfor the opportunity Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, we would then like to call Mr Dawie

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Dawid Jakobus

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman.

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: (sworn states)

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman, you are a parishioner at the St James churchin Kenilworth, is that correct?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: That is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is the denomination if one may term it that of that church?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: It is the

<UNKNOWN>: hurch of England in South

<UNKNOWN>: frica.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what ifyou could just give some more detail perhaps, is the make-up of that congregationthere?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: It is a congregation of born again

<UNKNOWN>: hristians andvisitors who come to the church who hopefully will accept the gospel of theLord Jesus

<UNKNOWN>: hrist and become

<UNKNOWN>: hristians.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Now, I understandthat you have people attending the church who live outside the area of Kenilworthitself?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: That is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What typeof people are those?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: They come from all sectors of the community.They are - we are predominantly a family church, where families come to worship.Families meaning mothers, fathers, children and children of all ages.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I understand also that there are people of all race groups whoattend that church?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: nd I put it to you the applicants earlier that there is a percentage of almost50 percent or around 40 percent of people who attend the church, who are notin fact considered White?

<UNKNOWN>: t this point in time I would saythat is a close percentage, I don't have the exact figures, but just by castingone's eye over the congregation today I would say that it is very close to 50-50.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: nd at the time of the attack?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: I would sayit was about 35 - 40 percent people of colour and the others so-called Whites.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: nd was this on a regular basis that that would be the make-up?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What other people didyou have attending the church, I understand you get certain missions to the...

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: That is correct, we have a mission outreach to visitingSeamen in our port, we worked very closely at the time with another missionaryorganisation called

<UNKNOWN>: iblia and together with them, we concentrated on visitorsin the harbour, Seamen and Russians, Filipino's,

<UNKNOWN>: hinese, Koreans, were broughtto our church.

<UNKNOWN>: nd are these people also in regular attendancethere?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: The most regular is the Russian, that happens justabout every week, depending upon whether there are ships in the harbour, theother Filipino's and Koreans and so on, that fluctuates with the work of

<UNKNOWN>: iblia,but not so weekly regular, but I would say regular in terms of every few weeks.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I understand that on the evening of the attack, there were anumber of Russian people in the church and that there were in fact a coupleof hundred or two hundred or so?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: On the night of the attack,there was about 125, in the immediate weeks before that, there was a crew changetaking place and we had up too 350 to 400 visitors about two weeks prior tothe attack.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I understand that the church also does missionarywork in the poorer sections of the Western

<UNKNOWN>: ape community, can you perhaps elaboratea little bit on that?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: We have had since the mid 1980's anoutreach to Khayelitsha, to Site

<UNKNOWN>: , that is to the

<UNKNOWN>: lack community, we alsoin the old apartheid era had outreaches to other so-called