Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR PATEL: I see.  We'll get to the differences later.  The attack on the Thembisa scholars, and again just limit yourself please for the sake of brevity, limit yourself to identification and involvement here.  Again you are with China, and again only you do the shooting?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR PATEL: Yes, just off the topic, what is China's real name?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He's Josiah.  I don't want to guess, I don't know his real name.  I don't know his name very well.  The only name which was given to me was China.  Maybe if someone find the name I'd send it to the Committee.

MR PATEL: Yes.  How long did you spend - the period of time that you spent in Ermelo, practically the entire period you spent with China, am I correct?  Am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And yet you don't know his name.  All right.  Let's move on.  The next incident is the attack on the three or four boys.  Again you do all the shooting.  This time you're in the presence of one Mdu and your girlfriend Mphume.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, the issue of me staying with China for a long time without knowing his name is the same because even himself, I stayed with him for a long time but he doesn't know my real name.  I just want to put it before the Committee that in the hit squads, the Committee have all my different names in all the involvements throughout the country, because you don't call yourself by your real name, and I will say he was a person who was going to help by pointing out.  So, it wasn't necessary for me to know his names, but it was important that he shows me the targets which I had to attack.  In most cases what used to happen, he is the person who used to direct me and point out and I carried out the operations or the attack.  I think I was answering your questions with reference to the names.  You can continue with the other question.

MR PATEL: Yes.  The next question related to the three or four boys when you were in the presence of Mdu, and again it is only you that do the shooting, am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true, it's me who shot.

MR PATEL: Then you have the attack on the ANC scholars.  Sorry, then you have the attack on Mr December, and again it's you that does the shooting.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, I can go through your entire affidavit on this basis and all I find is, "I did this, I did that.  I was in the presence of so-and-so", but nobody else does anything, except you.

CHAIRPERSON: There was that one case where he said that they were in the house and the Black Cats who were with him hacked a woman to death which he didn't do.

MR PATEL: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  The thrust of the question ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, but it wasn't with everyone, but with the vast majority of them.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  I get the distinct impression, Mr Hlongwane, that you are trying to hide or protect people.  Is my impression wrong?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, I will say you are making a big mistake because the hit squad involved, I'm not the only person.  There were people from different areas, others were from Ulundi and some operating different areas where I was not there, but I'm referring to incidences where I was involved personally, as the person who was in charge of the Black Cats.  I'm not trying to hide any person or hide anything.  I'm trying to explain what happened exactly from the time I arrived and the time I left this place.

MR PATEL: Yes.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: To add there, sir, since I left the place and went to attack in a particular area, I could not be able to remember each and every detail or incidence, but if there's any other thing that anyone knows you might put it to me.

UNKNOWN: Mr Hlongwane, if I may interpose, Mr Patel.  What Mr Patel wants to know is whether in the many crimes that you committed and that you have testified to before this Commission, was there any particular role that was played by your underlings, because from what appears in your affidavit and from the evidence that you have led, it does not appear that they have played any important role.  That is the people that accompanied you in the commission of all these crimes, and he wants to know whether you have not disclosed their actual and full participation because you are trying to protect them.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Chairperson, I would also like to ask to explain it in this way.  The things that happened I wrote them on the papers, but there were some incidences where I used to go with them but they did nothing.  However, they used to go out and do their operations and they will come and report to me and I didn't include that in my statements because I wasn't personally involved and I will take the report to Noah and any other things, and I'm including those which I gave instruction of which I take responsibility.

MR PATEL: Yes, I'll argue that at a later stage.  You mention Noah's name a lot because he gave you instructions as to what to do, is that not correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And likewise, you gave other people instructions in what to do, is that not correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, as a commander I did.

MR PATEL: And you feel that Noah should accept responsibility for the acts that you've done because he gave you the instructions, is that not correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Therefore likewise, you should accept responsibility and should have made full disclosure of all the operations that were carried out by your operatives under your instructions, would that not be correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: On the question of firearms, I got a bit lost in your evidence-in-chief.  But as I understood it, Noah gave you a 9mm short pistol, am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true.

MR PATEL: And you kept that and in addition to that, thereafter he gave you an AK47 and a .38 Special revolver?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, the 9mm was given to me at the time I was around Ermelo.  That was the time China was taking me around the community pointing out the places, and thereafter I was given the AK and the .38.

MR PATEL: And all of these firearms were given to you by Noah?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, there are some which I got from Noah and some ammunition from the police, and there's the other one which I got from Judah Zwane.  So I will say I got them from different people, not from Noah only.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what Mr Patel is putting to you is that you got the 9mm pistol, the AK47 and .38 revolver from Noah?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Then you got a further firearm from Judah Zwane.  What firearm was that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was a short 9mm and an R1.

MR PATEL: Forget the ammunition for a moment, was there any other firearms in your possession apart from this?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, arriving at Davel I got another 38.

MR PATEL: From whom?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: From Mr Mkhonza.

MR PATEL: Any other firearms that you received?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I also got something from Gatsheni Humphrey Ndlovu, he's in Parliament.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, I missed the first part.  May you please ask him to repeat it?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, the interpreter didn't catch all that you said.  Could you start again from that you got something from Mr Ndlovu.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said I remember acquiring arms from Humphrey Ndlovu who is a member of Parliament in the Gauteng Government.  It was an SSG ammunition, it was home-made firearms and some bombs, M26 and handgrenade inside.  They were given to me in a black plastic, refuse plastic.  And those I got them from Chris' home.