Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR HATTINGH: Nothing that you found at the compound when you went there yourself confirmed this information, is that correct?

L P MBOKANE: I couldn't get into the compound because I was refused permission.  Only people with permission were allowed in the compound.

MR HATTINGH: Is it further correct that nothing that you personally found at the compound confirmed the information that weapons in the possession of Black Cats or IFP members were being stored at the compound?

L P MBOKANE: I suspected that there were such a thing when I got there.  We tried to gain entrance but we were refused permission.  I suspected some of the people that were getting into the compound had indeed been involved in this.

MR HATTINGH: The people, Zwi Zwane, Chris Ngwenya, Obed Friday Nhlabathi, did you know them?

L P MBOKANE: No, I didn't know them.

MR HATTINGH: Bongani Malinga and Advice Gwala?

L P MBOKANE: I knew Advice Gwala, not Bongani Malinga.

MR HATTINGH: Lastly just with regard to the ANC military command and the instructions that you received, were you aware of the fact that during the Groote Schuur Accord in 1990, the ANC decided to cease the armed struggle?

L P MBOKANE: No, I didn't know that.

MR HATTINGH: Did you personally receive any instructions from the ANC Command, from the Provincial or National level?

L P MBOKANE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: From whom?

L P MBOKANE: From Mzwandile.

MR HATTINGH: Is that Gushu?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, Gushu.

MR HATTINGH: Did you consider him to be from either Provincial or National Command of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I think maybe there's a bit of a misunderstanding.
	Did you ever receive direct instructions from the command, either at a Provincial or National level, not through somebody else, directly?  Is that the import of your questions?

MR HATTINGH: I receive an instruction from my commander in the region.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that Gushu?

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not being asked from whom you got the instruction, the question is whether at any time did you ever receive a direct instruction, either from the Provincial Command or the National Command?

L P MBOKANE: No, I do not have the permission to communicate with others except Mzwandile.

MR HATTINGH: As far as you were aware at the time, what was the policy of the ANC in terms of the command structure with which you dealt with at the time with regard to armed robberies to be committed on behalf of the ANC and in the furtherance of the political aims of the ANC?

L P MBOKANE: Would you please repeat the question?

MR HATTINGH: At the time of these incidents what did you perceive to be the position with regard to the policy of the ANC in respect of armed robberies to be committed, let's say for the purpose of arming SDU's?

L P MBOKANE: The one policy I know from our side was that we were fighting for stability and reconciliation but if a person was being attacked one had to defend oneself and if one didn't have any arms with which to defend oneself, one had to do something because we were attacked and we had no arms with which to defend ourselves.  We therefore had to get hold of these arms from other people, to defend ourselves and the community.

MR HATTINGH: Was this a formal policy that you were being told about or was it just something that you gathered in the circumstances, that you were allowed to do that?

L P MBOKANE: I would say it was our policy, ourselves as the self-defence unit, having received this instruction from our commander, Mzwandile Gushu.

MR HATTINGH: Then lastly, Nkompela who did not stand trial with you with regard to the incidents at Giwi Breyten, what happened to him?  Is he also an applicant at this hearing, or what happened to him?

L P MBOKANE: I would be telling a lie if I were to say I know something about him.  It's been a long time since I saw him.  I don't know what has become of him, I don't even know his whereabouts.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Sir.
	Mr Mbokane, who is this person who signed, who completed the application form for you, your application for amnesty?

L P MBOKANE: Mandastole.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you ask him to do that for you?

L P MBOKANE: I realised that I would get confused and make mistakes.

MR MAPOMA: But weren't you able to write?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I can write but I had to be sure about this seeing that I had a form to fill in, that is why I requested him to assist.

MR MAPOMA: Then who signed the form?

L P MBOKANE: The signature is mine.

MR MAPOMA: Do you realise now that in this form you have not made an application for the murder of Mr de Bruyn?

L P MBOKANE: I was not aware of that, it's only now that I am realising that.

MR MAPOMA: I am also including this because it is part of one incident and my legal representative actually drew this to my attention.

L P MBOKANE: So are you suggesting that you only became aware that you should have applied for amnesty for de Bruyn after you were advised by your legal representative?

L P MBOKANE: Yes.  I am actually asking for amnesty for all these incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is: When the form was completed by your friend, what was your intention, what should he have filled in?

L P MBOKANE: My intention was that we should the information about my involvement in the murder of de Bruyn, the attempted murder and robbery.

MR MAPOMA: In the supplementary statement which was prepared with the assistance your legal representative it does not appear that you've applied for amnesty for robbery or attempted robbery, do you realise that?

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MR MAPOMA: Pardon Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MR MAPOMA: Page 61 up to 67, Sir.

MR BLACK: To assist, I think the relevant page is page 66 as well as, with respect, paragraph 1 on page 63.

MR MAPOMA: Did you take any firearms from the construction?

L P MBOKANE: No, we failed in our attempt to get hold of firearms.

MR MAPOMA: You say that you had information that the IFP and the Black Chain gang were being trained there?  Did you have any information about the Black Cats at all?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I did have information about the Black Cats.

MR MAPOMA: What information was it about the Black Cats?

L P MBOKANE: It was information to the effect that they too were being trained at the very same venue and they also keep some of their firearms there.

MR MAPOMA: To your information, was there any relationship between the Black Cats and the Black Chain gang?

L P MBOKANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What was it?

L P MBOKANE: They were just one and the same thing, they were using the same modus operandi.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you went to the construction actually was your order given to you by Gushu?  What is the precise order that he gave?

L P MBOKANE: The instruction was that when we get to the place we should try and get entry and we should persuade whoever we could manage to get hold to show us where the firearms were being hidden.

MR MAPOMA: Were you given any instructions to shoot when necessary?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, we already had received an instruction to that effect but only to defend ourselves.

MR MAPOMA: I'm asking this question because you say Gush gave you an instruction to go and confiscate the arms and not to kill anyone there.  You say you never had an intention to kill anyone by going there, would you explain this?

L P MBOKANE: I can say it was not our intention to get into the place and start shooting, instead we would get hold of two people, persuade them to show us where the firearms cache was.

MR MAPOMA: Now that you did not shoot anyone, you did not kill anyone, do you associate yourself with what was done, that is the killing and the shooting?