Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR RICHARD: And the family will say, if need be, that no-one approached them to find out anything.  In fact there was no contact from the cell and them, between the cell and them.  Does that give evidence of any active search?

MR DUBE: I won't have an answer to that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, just on this very issue so that I don't have to raise this question again.  Could you not, could not one of you pick up a public telephone and you phone the DPSC offices and say can I talk to Sicelo please, then they will tell you if he's there or if he's not there they will tell you that he's not there.  Could you not do that?

MR DUBE: We could have been able to do that but as I told, drew attention this earlier on, the first thing that struck my mind was to think highly about the security of the comrades, because I did not know what the position was at the time.

ADV SANDI: Yes but one could do that without revealing his identity on the public telephone.  You just say I want to talk to Sicelo.

MR DUBE: As I had said, my mind was preoccupied by the fact that I needed to secure my fellow comrades more than anything.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you needed to secure your fellow comrades, surely it was very important to find out where the deceased Sicelo Dhlomo was and whether he was in the hands of the police, because if he was in the hands of the police surely it was important that you and your fellow comrades should avoid the places known to him which he might mention to the police.

MR DUBE: I'd already noted earlier on that we, does not mean at all that we folded our arms and relaxed about this issue.  The commander of the cell did try so much to search for Sicelo but all that was to no avail.

CHAIRPERSON: But you continued as you've told us to use the same houses, you were sitting in Clive's house this afternoon, not doing a great deal for security, were you?  The others were at their homes where they could be telephoned and presumably found if the police went there.  That's so, isn't it?

MR DUBE: The first thing I did was to organise the base in Naledi.  That they should be able to stay there.  Those, that was the first measure I employed.  Secondly it was for them not to be at home at all times.  There should be a family member in place to inform them as to the developments at the time.

MR RICHARD: You make mention of a house in Naledi.  Where was this house, what's it's address, this place?

MR DUBE: I don't know the address but I know the house, physically that is.

MR RICHARD: Whose house is it, or was it?

MR DUBE: It belonged to one of the comrades that I used to work with in a different cell, because I went to explain to him about the position, or the problem we had encountered.

MR RICHARD: What is your comrade's name?

MR DUBE: Joey is the name.

MR RICHARD: Joe, and he lives in Naledi?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now what went on in this base?

MR DUBE: This was my base where I used to stay sometimes.

MR RICHARD: So, when you say it was a base for the comrades, what do you mean?  For your cell members.

MR DUBE: I don't quite understand your question.

MR RICHARD: You said this was a base for your comrades, your cell members.  In what way?

MR DUBE: I did not say that.

MR RICHARD: I beg pardon if you did not.  Right, now what was Joe's surname?

MR DUBE: Mabulelong.

MR RICHARD: Right.  Let's return to the transmitter.  Did he have a non de guerre, nickname, Joe?

MR DUBE: I did not hear that?

MR RICHARD: Did Joe have another name besides Joe, did he have a war name?

MR DUBE: Joe.  We called him Joe.

MR RICHARD: Right, now ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard.  Was that his real name, this Joey?

MR DUBE: Yes, that was his real name.

ADV SANDI: Did you have a code name?

MR DUBE: Yes, I had one.

ADV SANDI: Did Sicelo have a code name?

MR DUBE: No, he did not have one.

ADV SANDI: Did Clive and Sipho have code names?

MR DUBE: What we discussed was if it so happens that we have to go to a certain place we will have to use pseudonyms, but we must not forget such names.  However we did not have specific code names in this regard.

ADV SANDI: Was Sicelo at any stage ever given a code name?  Did it ever become necessary for Sicelo to assume a code name?

MR DUBE: I highlighted earlier on that if we leave from one place to another one could use a pseudonym, but don't forget that name.

ADV SANDI: Yes but that does not answer the question Mr Dube.  I want to know did it ever happen at any stage that Sicelo had to be given a code name because you were going to be going to some other place together with him?

MR DUBE: No, it never happened.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Talking of code names and nicknames.  The name Rambo, does that ring a bell to you?

MR DUBE: That is Sipho's nickname.

MR RICHARD: Sipho Tshabalala's, right.

MR RICHARD: Commander?

MR DUBE: That was Clive's nickname.

MR RICHARD: And your names, you were variously known as Pat, is that correct?  Silver.

MR DUBE: Silver was not known, but Pat was a name that was known.

MR RICHARD: So which one of the names did you use at the time?

MR DUBE: Pat.

MR RICHARD: Now, let's go back to the transmitter.  Would you please describe exactly what this thing looked like.  What did the transmitter look like?  What colour was it?

MR DUBE: First of all, that object was similar to walkie talkie, as I said in the morning.  Black in colour, as this.  Had an aerial.

MR RICHARD: How big was the aerial?

MR DUBE: It could have been long, as the applicant is demonstrating.

MR RICHARD: About ten centimetres.

MR DUBE: Roughly, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did it have any switches or buttons?

MR DUBE: On the side it had a switch to use for switching it on or off.  It had this on or off button on the side.  Also a place for some to insert batteries in.  It was a battery operated object.

MR RICHARD: What size batteries did it take?

MR DUBE: The small 1.5 volts batteries.  Very small ones.

MR RICHARD: What we call penlights.

MR DUBE: I will say so.  These are very very tiny small batteries I'm talking about.

MR RICHARD: Anything else about it?

MR DUBE: As I said it had an on and off switch on the side, and the aerial.  Those are things I particularly remember about this object, and explicitly remember.

MR RICHARD: What sort of aerial, was it a piece of wire, or a rod?

MR DUBE: It was an aerial that you could attach on top.  One other thing that I'd like to highlight is that I did not have enough time to inspect this gadget, analyse it and pay attention to details, because what struck my mind was to throw this gadget on the ground and break it.

MR RICHARD: You took the batteries out of it, why did you take the batteries out?

MR DUBE: I wanted to establish if it was on or off at that particular time.

MR RICHARD: And what did you find out?

MR DUBE: I discovered that it was on.  This is why I immediately removed the batteries and threw this gadget on the floor.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out that it was on before you removed the batteries, and before you threw it on the floor?

MR DUBE: Yes, I found out if it was on or off.  I grabbed it and looked at it whether it was on or off and I did as I explained.

MR RICHARD: You say you looked at it quite carefully 'though, because you wanted to know what it is.  Did you find any other wires coming out of it?

MR DUBE: I did take a look at this gadget and I did discover it was a transmitter.  It meant for me now to check if it was on or off, and soon after that I took off the batteries.  As to inspect details like who the manufacturer of this gadget, the inventor of this gadget, I did not have time to do that.