Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: ... that statement contradicts his evidence completely as you put to him, where he says
"I took the transmitter and left him.  I immediately rushed to the three cell members in Emdeni."
Can you just put the short version that you want him to comment on?

MR RICHARD: Now on that one, Chairperson, I don't have a version because none of the people that instruct me were present and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, but which of Mr Dube's versions do you want him to comment on?

MR RICHARD: I'll approach it this way.
	At what time did the deceased get shot?  At what time did you shoot him about?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It was around nine, but I did not check the time at that point when I shot him.

MR RICHARD: Now you say that you met up with the deceased at around dusk, which I would say is approximately 7 p.m., is that within your memory?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I would not dispute it.

MR RICHARD: So there is a two hour period between seven and nine.  When you indicate about 9 o'clock, how far out could you reasonably be, a quarter of an hour, half an hour?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: When you give us the time 9 p.m., how approximate is that, is that within half an hour, within 10 minutes?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did say that I was not sure of the time because I did not check the time at that point.

MR RICHARD: But it was more than one hour after he arrived at about seven?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have referred you to estimated times but ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: Right, let's take it this way, how long
were you at the tree before you shot him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: A minute was more than enough.  It must have been less than a minute.

MR RICHARD: Now you went from near the school to the tree, now how long did it take to walk from near the school to the tree?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: From my home to that place it takes about 35 or 40 minutes to walk there, but because I had to go and fetch Sibongiseni and the other person it meant that I took longer, so I cannot really estimate just how much time I took on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Explain how you had to go and fetch them, where did you have to go and fetch them from?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had told them to wait for me at their homes.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you go from your home to their homes, or did you go from the school to their homes?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I left my house, there were three of us, Dube, the deceased and myself and then I left them at the school and I went further to pick the other two and returned with them and thereafter we all went to that spot.

CHAIRPERSON: So Dube and the deceased waited at the school while you went and fetched the others?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now if I understand it correctly for you to walk from the school to their houses, to each of their houses, would have taken each way about 35 minutes?  Please correct me, I may have misunderstood it.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I was trying to explain was this, you asked me a question how far or how long it would take from my home to that spot, so I was trying to explain that I left my home and went to the school and then had to go to these other two houses and therefore it took longer.  That is why I'm not in a position to estimate ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well can we try doing it bit by bit.  How long would it take you to get from your house to the school?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: How long would that take, roughly?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: About 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then from the school to the other two houses, how long would that take?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: They stay at different places.  I can say that it took from about 15 minutes to go from the school to Sipho's home.

CHAIRPERSON: And the from Sipho's to Precious Wiseman's?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: From Sipho's home to Precious' home would take about 15 minutes or more.

CHAIRPERSON: And then from Precious' home back to the school?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I would say about 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: 15, 1 5?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, somewhere there.

CHAIRPERSON: And going back to your original time, it would then take about 20 minutes from the school to the tree?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, we can say that, 20 minutes or more.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's more than an hour and twenty minutes this would have taken you?  ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: And the final period, is how long were the deceased, you and Mr Dube at your house, about? - to add on.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We did not stay for long because when I emerged from the house this device had been found and from then we requested him to go inside and then we talked between the two of us and we did not take more than two minutes, and from then we left my home.  We did not spend a lot time.

MR RICHARD: So after you learnt that Mr Dube had found this device  you and he discussed it for about two minutes and then left, is that correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And had you already arranged to meet Sipho and Precious or did you go and telephone them before you left?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had already telephoned them because I had already been given that instruction to call them when I emerged from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the first instruction was to phone them and tell them to stand by?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't think we differ.

CHAIRPERSON: You went out and you saw them ....(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: You went out - after you had phoned them and told them to stand by, you went out, you saw the broken device and you sent the deceased inside and you and Dube spoke about it and you decided that you would have to eradicate him, exterminate him.  Did you phone the others again or did you just go to their houses and collect them?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not telephone them again.

CHAIRPERSON: They were standing by, you already arranged for them to stand by at their houses and you just went and fetched them.  Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Where did you call them from, where was this telephone?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It was at my home.

ADV SANDI: Why did you have to go and fetch them, could they not just come over and join you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: There was no problem with fetching them because we had decided that they should be on stand-by and we would come to their homes and pick them up.  That was the arrangement.

ADV SANDI: Did you pick them up by car or were you just walking?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was on foot.

MR RICHARD: Right, so while you were busy phoning the other two, we now have a situation that inside there is Mr Dube and the deceased, how long were they together for?

CHAIRPERSON: So they were outside?

MR RICHARD: Outside.
	How long were they together while you were busy on the telephone?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I do not want to commit myself because when I made those telephone calls it was not just a matter of telling them to be on stand-by, we did talk a bit because we were friends, so I cannot really put a time-frame to it.

MR RICHARD: Now you weren't present while Mr Dube was talking to the deceased, you were on the telephone talking to your friends and telling them to be on stand-by.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is the whole truth.

MR RICHARD: Now it's purely for the purposes of constructing the time-period, could the conversations between you and your two friends have taken more than 10 minutes or less than 10 minutes?  They were short conversations.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Maybe less than that.

MR RICHARD: So then we look at the next from the time that the deceased arrived at your house to the time that you went to telephone your two comrades, again was that half an hour or 10 minutes, estimate?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't quite follow you.