Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MR TLOUBATLA: How many people were - let's say, for the want of a better word, kidnapped in that form?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Six people, there were six.

MR TLOUBATLA: Aright, and then I think they were taken into the house.  You didn't personally go into the house and then what next happened?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not personally go into the house but I know they were being asked questions as to who burnt the house, on whose order, such questions.  I did not ask them anything but later on I heard that a decision had been taken that these boys were members of SOSCO and they were present when the house was burnt and we had to take them to Showela where they would be killed because a decision had been taken already that, yes, we are being killed.  Now as AZAPO, we will have to kill as well.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just one second, don't rush.  Do you know, do you personally know why these boys had to be interrogated at Lingani's house?  What was the purpose of interrogating them there?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was to verify that they are members of the UDF and to find out whether they took part in the burning of Jefferson's house.  That was the main reason for interrogating them, and to find out on whose order they committed that act.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you personally verify whether these people were UDF members or SOSCO members, whatever organisation?  Did you, on your personal level, did you verify that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I had a lot of confidence in the people who were interrogating them.  I did not go in because I knew that I would not tolerate asking questions, that is why I decided to wash a car.  I left everything in the hands of those who were asking questions.  Jefferson was one of the leadership and I was sure that he would come up with a decision based on who they were and it was verified that they were members of the UDF.  The thing that I did not verify was whether they took part, but yes, I verified that they were members of the UDF but about taking part, I did not.

MR TLOUBATLA: So thereafter, I mean they were taken into a house, they were interrogated, what happened next?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Late, at about 5, 6 o'clock members of the leadership arrived and they spoke to the people who conducted the interrogation to get the report from them.  At about 7 to 8 o'clock they said they must be taken and be killed.  They said we should choose our own place.  We went to comrade Glen's house who was also part of the leadership in Showela. ...[intervention]

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that about 5 or 6 o'clock some members of the leadership came and they spoke to the interrogators, do you know the names of those members of the leadership who came?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I remember.  It was the late comrade Sam Siyema and the late comrade Tammy Moglegwa.

ADV BOSMAN: Where were you when the leadership interrogated the victims?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The interrogation took place inside the house.  I was outside but in the yard.

MR TLOUBATLA: So you remained ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute.  Did the leadership themselves interrogate these people or did they just get a report from the people who had previously been interrogating the victims?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The leadership got a report but I have explained that the person whose house was burnt was also part of the leadership.  He was at the BLAKO, it was a black ...[indistinct] union and he was in the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know, was he the only member in the leadership who interrogated these people or did other members in the leadership also interrogate them?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He is not the only one, Kabelo Lingani was his brother and he was in the National Executive of AZAZIM.  I think he was the publicity secretary and part of the branch leadership was also in charge.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said these people should be killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I would not exactly say who said that they must be killed but it was the general understanding within the organisation that if we have verified that a person has committed an act, we can deal with him in an appropriate way.

MR MALAN: Could you please explain this to me because you say the policy was not even to retaliate and I think you say in your statement that at that day it became clear to you that the policy was wrong and you decided to retaliate and now you tell us it was a general understanding in the organisation that people should be deal with.  Can you explain that to me?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: These things happened in different time spans.  There was an understanding within the organisation that if you feel you are under pressure and there are people who have done something wrong you can deal with them.  But later as the attacks continued, I remember comrade Montumeza in particular, he said
"We do not mean you should just, you shouldn't do anything.  If you are being attacked and you are in a position to defend yourselves, do it.  Defend yourselves in a way that will suit you".  Now I do not know who took out an order on that day but the understanding was already there, that you should defend yourselves in any way possible.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I understand you.  You made it clear to us that the policy was, that defence was not to go out attacking but sit - I think you used the word sit in the translation, and defend yourselves, that's why you got together and stayed together not go out.
	Now this instance, if I understand you correctly, you went out to find these people, you took them to the house, interrogated them and then killed them.  Isn't that very different from the police?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It's not true, we did not go out and look for them.  Well, I was not present when they were caught but I got a report that the comrades were moving from Orlando West to got to Orlando East to go and wash and when they were at the turnoff at DOCC they realised that they did not buy a newspaper on that day.  It was a normal thing to read a morning as well as an afternoon newspaper, so they wanted to go to Orlando Police Station to buy a newspaper.
	On their way towards the bottle store buying a paper, they recognised - that was the report, comrade Jefferson recognised these six boys who were part of a group that was singing in his area, that's how they were caught.  We did not go out and hunt them, they were caught because they were seen.  It is not true that we went out for them.  That is how they were caught and they were interrogated and it was part of our defence.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't seem to understand the purpose of this question, I must explain it to you.  You see, there are two possibilities.  The one possibility is that you acted in killing these people, you did so without getting instructions or authority from your leadership.
	The other possibility is that you got such instructions from the leadership, so really, either you got instructions from the leadership on that particular day to kill those people or you didn't.  And the question is, if you did get orders or instructions or the go-ahead from your leadership to kill them, who were those people, who were those people in the leadership who told you to kill these people?