Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

THOMAS MANTHATA: In the community it seems you have severed your relationship.  Is that true?  Have you severed your relationship with the people who are ANC leaders?  Do we understand each other?  My question is, have you severed your relationship with the ANC?  And it seems that you are at a stage where the relationship is irrevocable.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: That is true.

THOMAS MANTHATA: That is why I am saying you don't get support from even among the churches, within your own community?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: Within the churches I have support and I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and those are the people, even after the funeral of my son and my husband, those are the people who come to my house frequently.  There are two people from Kathrada or Slovo, they would come to comfort me.  The faces which I was used to, I don't want to tell lies.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But that is why I am asking that those church people, didn't they hear the problem between yourself and the ANC and try to bring reconciliation between you and the
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ANC?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: I understand you now.  These people tried when they see what is happening.  You would see that one section of the ANC is no more the same as before.  Then you ask yourself why did it come to be that way. This ANC has two sections within Schweizer-Reneke.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I don't understand?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: There is the true ANC and the false ANC, because there are two sections of the ANC.  These two sections, the other section, they do things which we don't understand. It is this section which  used to use my child and use me, but they have severed relationships with me. But this other section, they are very nepotic. There is food, there is money, one day your child will stand throughout the day and this family which will distribute to these children, it will take a team.  I am on the way, because I see what is happening. I used to open a tin of fish and they take the liquid of the soup and mix it with something greenish and then they give it to these children. Then they take the real food and take it to their homes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I was asking you in this way because I could see that you are emotional now.  We as a Commission we try very hard that this kind of emotions which could destroy a person, then we try that we should understand your emotions so as to bring your feelings to be normal, so that you should be a good member of the community and to help the citizens. I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, I just want to ask a few questions as well. But I think, as the Chairperson, I would be failing in my duty if I didn't actually explain a little about what our task is.  I think we must understand that the Human Rights
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Violations Committee to which you are now telling your story, has a brief.  The brief goes from 1960 to December 1993.  I think it is very important for people to know that.  The brief also is to look at human rights violations, in terms of killings, abductions, torture or severe ill-treatment.  I want to actually try and pose my questions within that context to clarify what has happened to you.
 Mr Manthata has already said that you are a very angry lady and I hope that we will be able to deal with this anger afterwards.  But there are real things that have happened to you and we want to understand those things.  If you please don't take offence at what I am saying, because I want us to understand what actually happened to you.  
 I want to go back to the first incident in 1990 when you were helping people put up a home.  In that incident when Capt Van der Venter assaulted you, were there other people who were assaulted as well, or were you assaulted only because you were a prominent member of the ANC Women's League at that time?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: All people who were arrested were beaten.  Those people who were arrested with me in the cell, were beaten.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were many people who were beaten?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And were the arrests because you were occupying illegal land?  Am I right in understanding that?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: My second question relates to the arrest of your son. You say that it was in connection with the death of an IFP member.  I think Prof Piet Meiring asked you earlier on, you said there were about ten Inkatha members.  Now yesterday when we asked somebody else about a similar
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situation they said they were talking about Inkatha as a vigilante grouping, a group of people who were just against the ANC, not Inkatha as we understand the Inkatha Freedom Party.  In Schweizer-Reneke what was actually happening, these Inkatha people that you talk about, were they a vigilante group or were they members of the Inkatha Freedom Party?  I think that is very important.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: It is true what you are saying.  There was no Inkatha. This Inkatha were taken from people outside.  They were taking boys from Stilfontein.  These youngs boys would call themselves Inkatha.  They were trying to make maybe a vigilante group, but truly, it was not a true reflection of Inkatha.  Because we were afraid of Inkatha, when we heard the word Inkatha, we were frightened.  So we used to call them Inkatha, because they called themselves Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  My last question, sorry two more questions.  You mentioned before your house was bombed, that a Mr Sibiya and a Mr Khoza and I think you said Umpinyang, came to your house and they were pointing to your house.  Now who are these gentlemen?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: Mr Sibiya is staying in our area, who has taken these people from outside and wanted to form this Inkatha.  This person who was in the car, Themba Khoza, he was in the car.  Then the other person, I knew Themba Khoza and I didn't know the other one, and then Umpinyang and Mr Sibiya, there were four in this Uno car.  When they were pointing at me, I thought, because I was in jail, he saying this person was the one who was in jail.  That was my opinion.  Then it was the same night when my house was bombed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mamkgele, I want us to be very, very clear here.  You are - are you sure when you say Mr Themba Khoza,
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are you referring to which Mr Themba Khoza? The Themba Khoza that you are referring to, is he someone who stayed in Ipelegeng or is he - are you referring to the Themba Khoza who is a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: It is not Themba Khoza from Schweizer-Reneke, it is the same Themba Khoza whom we know.  It was the person who was in that Uno.  It was the person who was in the Uno on that day in that afternoon, when Sibiya was pointing at me with a finger. This Mr Khoza was in the car in that Uno.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibiya is still saying in Schweizer-Reneke.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And this other person, the third person?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: In Schweizer-Reneke.

CHAIRPERSON: In Schweizer-Reneke.  So again, sorry, I just want to clarify this.  If Mr Themba Khoza was there, you are saying there was some relationship between the Inkatha who was a vigilante grouping in Schweizer-Reneke and the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: That's true, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ma'am.  My last question is related to the death of your son.  Which - you say he died in 1994, which month was it that he died?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: It was on the 17th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Is there something else you want to tell us?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: I am through, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata?