Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR WILLS: And the other two who were with you, ie, first of Sonny Boy Ngcobo or Sonny Ngcobo, did he fire shots at the people in the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, he shot at the people who were trying to escape through the windows of the bus.

MR WILLS: And what about Jomo Mseleku, what did he do?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: He shot at the bus.

MR WILLS: Was he shooting from inside or outside, if you can recall?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: From outside.

MR WILLS: So as I understand your evidence, it's only the first applicant who actually entered the bus and fired?  That's Jabulani Ncokwane.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now where did you get the guns from and what guns were they, who was armed with what?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Master gave us the guns.  I personally was armed with a pump-gun, Jabulani Ncokwane had an AK47, Jomo also had an AK, Sonny Ngcobo as well, Jabulani Cele had a handgrenade, Senzo Shange had a home-made gun.

MR WILLS: Was the handgrenade used at all?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: No.

MR WILLS: Then you were arrested some two days after this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you're going onto something else, I think we'll take the adjournment at this stage till a quarter to two.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, are we ready to proceed?  I think your last question was, you were starting to ask him about his arrest.

MR WILLS: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Shange, you were arrested at the place of your temporary employment at a disco some two days after the incident, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And can you tell this Committee how the police treated you when you were arrested?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Proceed.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: When I was arrested, police found me at Sipingo where I was working.  They took me and they asked me if I knew Jomo Mseleku, I told them, no I didn't know him.  They asked me about Master, I told them I didn't know Master and they said to me I must tell the truth about the bus incident.  I told them I didn't know anything.
	They told me to tell the truth and I was very young to lie and they also promised to hit me.  I told them I didn't know anything or any incident in connection with the bus.  They started hitting me, they put me behind the police van.  They took me to a nearby forest.  They drove.  I think the cars were many, besides the one I was in, they drove me there and when we were in that forest they took me out of the van, they said to me I still don't want to tell the truth or not.  I told them I didn't know anything.  They started hitting me and they said to me: "Okay, you can now go".  And I asked them: "Go where?", because this is in the middle of the forest and they said you go back where we took you, so I told them I wasn't going to go there, I wasn't going to walk to the place where they took me, they must take me back and they said to me I was kidding.  
	I was about to tell them the truth because they were going to make me tell them the truth.  They continued hitting me and then they took me to the police station in Brighton Beach.  That's where I was locked.

MR WILLS: And you made a statement to the police - Mr Chairperson, this is one of the statements which I received during the lunch adjournment.  It's marked Exhibit V.  I believe it's from the High Court file in this matter and I think it forms part of the record, I would imagine, or do you want me to give it an exhibit number, Exhibit B?

CHAIRPERSON: I think call it Exhibit B.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Now you made a statement to the police shortly after your arrest, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: You made this statement in Durban on the 1st of May 1992.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Essentially, in this statement you formulate an alibi defence where you say you were somewhere else at the time of the incident and you weren't involved in this attack.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now why did you do this?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I wanted the police to see me as innocent so that they release me.

MR WILLS: But what you've said today, that you were involved is in fact the position, is that not so?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now I want you to explain to the Committee why you attacked the bus, what was the purpose for you attacking the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: The reason we attacked the bus was because we were trying to fight back to the people who forced us to leave our area, or our places.  We wanted to stay there as ANC members, freely, and also we wanted to kick out Inkatha members because they were the reason why we were out of our places.  We were born there and it was sad and difficult for us to leave our homes.  We were forced and we were attacked.  That's why saw it necessary for us to go back.

MR WILLS: Now you know that obviously you've caused a lot of pain to a lot of residents of that area.  Do you have anything to say to those people's relatives who are here today?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, there is.

MR WILLS: Continue.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: To those people who suffered, I would like to apologise for what I have done.  I did this because of the situation and the time.  At the time it was appropriate, but I am sorry.  If we were not fighting each other, I wouldn't have done that.  I did this because I wanted us to go back to our area where we were born and raised, we wanted to stay there peacefully.  We were kicked out and we were forced to leave the area.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, that is the evidence-in-chief from this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd just like to clarify one point before cross-examination.
	Did you know one Bantu Hamilton Gumede?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he one of the apparent leaders, responsible for the attack on Mtolo?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, Sonny said he saw him when Mr Mtolo's place was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the day you've been telling us about, did you intend to attack him and kill him?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, we thought that he was going to be in the bus when we launched the attack to the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was in fact injured, wasn't he?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I don't have sufficient information on this, because when we arrived there we didn't see him in the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Cross-examination?

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Shange, I would like to know, when did you join the ANC?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: In 1991.

MS MTANGA: Was this before the meeting called by Chief Hlengwa?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Before the meeting.

MS MTANGA: In your application, on page 39(a), you have stated that when the chief called a meeting, from the ANC group it was only three, it was yourself and two others who attended the meeting to listen to what the chief had to say.  Why did the rest of the group not attend the meeting?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: ANC supporters who didn't go to this meeting had heard a rumour that the meeting was called or held because they were going to discuss about ANC supporters, that they were not needed in the area.

MS MTANGA: Why did the three of you go to the meeting?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I arrived on that morning and I found these people who were going to the meeting and also the ANC supporters were no longer around or in their places.