Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At that time the comrades were responsible for all structures in the township and that garage's owner, Mr Gude, was aligned to the ANC and that is why the comrades got themselves involved in this issue.

MR LOWIES: What do you mean they were involved in all structures?  Do you know what you're talking about?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question?

MR LOWIES: What do you mean when you say they were involved in all structures, the comrades?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what was probably not translated is a portion or his evidence which is to the effect that the comrades were responsible for looking after the safety of the residents in the township

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is why they took the active part in looking for people who burnt down the garage of course apart from the fact that - is it Mr Gude I think it was, was also a member of the ANC?  Is that right Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Were there any other structures where they were responsible for, the comrades?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I didn't know about that because as I mentioned before I was not a member of the ANC so I was not aware of their activities.

MR LOWIES: Now thereafter did you have trouble with the comrades again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: I think what I should do to make it easy for you is the following.  Tell us why were you scared of the comrades?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I mentioned before that they said I was involved in that burning down of the garage at Everton and they were looking for me.  That is why I was afraid of them.

MR LOWIES: Yes but you said there were also other reasons and that's what I want to find out, in effect of your evidence.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You misunderstood me.  I said the problem I had with the comrades related to the garage that was burnt down in Everton.

MR LOWIES: Okay but now you were punished, the matter is over, why would you then flee to KwaMadala?

CHAIRPERSON: With due respect Mr Lowies, he wasn't punished at all.  What happened was that he was taken to the garage, locked up in the room and a good Samaritan women came up and opened the window for him.  He then escaped through the window, he left straight for KwaMadala Hostel.

MR LOWIES: So were you going to be punished more than that by the comrades, just by being locked up?  I don't follow.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir I explained before the reason why I ran away.  Those people had firearms, that is the reason why I fled the township for the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Why would they have firearms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, I cannot respond to that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would they have firearms?

MR LOWIES: Yes that was the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: I missed the answer, sorry Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't know.

MR LAX: He doesn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Now after escaping from the garage did you return to Sebokeng or did you go straight to KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: From that point I went to the hostel on the very same day.

MR LOWIES: Now why were you scared of the firearms, was there the threat that they were going to use it or what?  Because you mentioned that they had firearms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I mentioned before that I feared for my safety because those people had firearms, they would have shot me.  I had mentioned that before.

MR LOWIES: And then you joined KwaMadala.  Now the question is, why did you join the IFP?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I thought it was a good organisation because all the people who had fled the township joined the people at KwaMadala.  That is why I also went there.

MR LOWIES: So were there other people fleeing from Everton as well that you know of and that took refuge there in the KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I'm saying is I am the person who fled from Everton to the hostel.  I do not know with regards to others.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we didn't say that but do you know of any residents from Sebokeng who sought refuge at KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes there were.

MR LOWIES: Now Mr Nosenga, were you ever involved with the SDUs or did they mean anything to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about the SDUs.

MR LOWIES: You wouldn't know whether they're the same thing as the comrades or what?  What is your opinion, can you express an opinion?  If you can I'd like you to.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about SDUs.  What I knew about was that there were ANC supporters.

MR LOWIES: Now after this incident could you roam freely in the streets of Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: And Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: After I arrived at KwaMadala Hostel I was not able to walk freely at Boipatong as well.

MR LOWIES: Why?  You've done nothing wrong to the people of Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were people who were residents of Serela who worked at Iscor and those people recognised me or they saw me when I wore my IFP tee-shirt and there was no way I could have gone back to the township after those people had seen me wearing that tee-shirt.

MR LOWIES: Why?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I mentioned before there were Iscor employees who resided at Boipatong and who had seen me wearing IFP tee-shirts.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is why wouldn't you go to Boipatong with your IFP tee-shirt?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You wouldn't be able to go into the township if you had been seen wearing an IFP tee-shirt.

CHAIRPERSON: Why won't IFP members go to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Because all IFP members were prevented from going into the township.

CHAIRPERSON: What would happen to you if you had to go to Boipatong with an IFP tee-shirt.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They would have killed me in Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Who would have killed you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The ANC supporters from Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Not just the comrades, any ANC supporter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I'm saying is that ANC supporters would have killed me, those people who resided in Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Even if you go there without your IFP tee-shirt?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they would have because they used to attack people even in Vereeniging.

MR LOWIES: But why would they do that, have you got a reason that you can advance?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the time there was friction between the ANC and the IFP people from the KwaMadala Hostel.

MR LOWIES: So can I summarise your evidence that irrespective of whether or not you wear an IFP tee-shirt, if you put foot in Boipatong you would be killed even if you didn't make any trouble there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is what I'm saying.  We did not go to Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: The reason why is because you are IFP and they are ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question?

MR LOWIES: And another reason why this is so because you are IFP and the residents are ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: So it seems to me then that there was actually a state of war between the two factions here at Vanderbijlpark and in the Vaal?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not be able to respond to that, I cannot say whether there was war or not.

MR LOWIES: Now if a Boipatong resident would see you in another town he would also attack you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What place are you referring to?

MR LOWIES: Well in town?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they would have, they could have abducted me and taken me to Boipatong where they could have killed me.

MR LOWIES: So you could even be abducted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they could have taken me there to kill me.

MR LOWIES: Now would any member of, any resident of Boipatong do this to you or would it only be comrades?