Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

CHAIRPERSON: We are now going on to Mbanjwa and Ndaba?

MR PANDAY: Yes Chairperson.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I don't think I'm involved in this matter, I'm involved in the Mafu matter.

CHAIRPERSON: That will come on next, after this one.

MR DEHAL: Is this purely for address?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills has said 10 minutes?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you could just change places with him for 10 minutes?

MR DEHAL: May I just mention at this stage, there appears to be a problem with the Mafu matter as well.  We've just been given a voluminous statement by Deborah Quinn which Panday and I have not seen before.  I need to take instructions on that so could we recess now, having regard to this matter till 2 o'clock?  Hopefully I'd be able to take instructions till then?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Thank you very much I'm indebted to you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who is appearing in Nyawuza?

MR PANDAY: Are you appearing?  There are two applications, Ngema and Nyawuza.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, if we may be temporarily be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When the evidence concluded in this matter we adjourned because it was stated that the deceased's mother was going to give evidence which she was expected to do on the Wednesday.  This adjournment occurred on the Monday.  We accordingly adjourned the hearing until Wednesday on the basis that she and any other witnesses who wished to give evidence would be able to do so on the Wednesday.  Unfortunately when we reconvened on the Wednesday, that is on the 4th August of last year we were told that the deceased's mother had been shot the night before.  It struck us at the time that there may have been a connection between the shooting and the fact that she was going to be a witness at our hearing.  On this basis we have decided to adjourn the matter further and I requested the Attorney General to conduct a full enquiry or as full an enquiry as was possible into the motive for her shooting.  He duly did so and I have a copy of the letter, he wrote to the Area Commissioner informing him that he could assign the investigation to what has come to be known as the MacAdam Unit and I have a further letter indicating that an extremely capable and experienced police officer was assigned to take over the investigation.  There has been no information laid before us to indicate that the unfortunate death of the deceased's mother was in fact in any way connected with the fact that she was due to give evidence before this Committee.  In those circumstances we can do nothing more than proceed with the hearing.  There's no possible reason for any further adjournment and delay and that there is no suggestion that any further enquiries could possibly in any way reveal anything further.  It seems in those circumstances though that I should enquire as to whether there are any other persons present today who were present then who wish to give evidence in this matter.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, our case, the case for the applicants is closed at this stage we won't be requiring any further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it doesn't appear that there's anybody here who wishes to give evidence?  Mr Mapoma, you don't know of anyone who wishes to give evidence do you?

MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson, what we did, we did send notices to next-of-kin of the deceased in this matter and the indication that I have received from - the report that I received from the investigator is that they said they are not interested in attending to the matter any further and as such I don't have any
further witness or evidence to tender.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we can then merely proceed to the question of argument.  Mr Wills.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I submit that both applicants have satisfied the requirements of the act in that their application complies with the requirements of the Act and the act or the offence was an act associated with a political objective committed in the course of conflicts of the past and that they have made a full disclosure.
	Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members, I'm going to deal briefly with full disclosure first of all and then a little more thoroughly with the aspect of political motivation.  I think it's material in this matter, Chairperson, that the applicants have come before this Committee with nothing to gain insofar as they haven't been apprehended, they haven't been sentenced, in fact nobody would have known about this offence or who committed the offence had the applicants not come before this Committee.  Unlike a lot of other applicants who are in jail and are seeking release these applicants came, they said what they did and they sought amnesty on that basis and I submit that it goes a long way to indicating that to the best of their recollection they have told the truth.  There would be no point in them coming before this Committee and lying in those circumstances.  In fact it would be a futile exercise.  I realise and I've been through the record that there are a couple of instances where the Chairperson and the Honourable Member, Mr de Jager, questioned the applicants on the level of credibility and veracity but I submit that on both those occasions the discrepancies are minor, the one was relating to the aspect of whether the deceased saw the accused or recognised the applicants prior to his demise, there was a slight contradiction between what the applicants said in their evidence in chief and what they said under cross-examination and the other issue concerned whether or not the deceased was searched for the firearm afterwards.  I submit those are really non-material and small matters.  The main matters are material things, is that the applicants came, they said they decided to kill the person, they searched for him, they found an opportunity and they killed the person and they came and told the Committee to the best of their ability how this occurred.

JUDGE DE JAGER: According to their evidence, according to my recollection they acted against a criminal gang?

MR WILLS: That is correct, Chair.  A criminal gang leader.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes and they did so because this criminal gang sort of inhibited ANC activities and well they inhibited the whole community, there couldn't be a normal community life?

MR WILLS: That is correct, yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can we say they acted against a political opponent?