Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR BASSON: Because the foetus as you know, is a sterile tissue.  That is why we use the alpha feto proteins and the tissue from the foetus, because they do not, they are protected unless in the case of very, very remote animal viruses, from human ineffective organisms.
 In actual fact this foetus posed no threat, no more threat than the throwing out of a medium rare steak into the garbage bin.

WENDY ORR: I still find it unusual that this material was not incinerated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Looking at Dr Immelman's affidavit, can you tell us who the Chris is that he refers to.  He says you introduced him to Chris?

MR BASSON: I can't remember that I ever introduced any specific person to Dr Immelman.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us who Koos is?

MR BASSON: The answer to that question is the same.  I never introduced these people to him.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us who is Johnny Koertzen?

MR BASSON: Yes, Johnny Koertzen was a member of 7 Medical Battalion.

MR VALLY: The 7th Medical Battalion was a forerunner of ...

MR BASSON: Nothing as far as I know.  It is still 7 Battalion.

MR VALLY: I see.   And most of the people or a large number of the people involved in the front companies, under Project Coast, were in fact in 7th Medical Battalion before they got involved in Project Coast?

MR BASSON: That is not true.

MR VALLY: Well, let's name them.  Dr Mijburgh?

MR BASSON: Dr Mijburgh, as far as I know, was not a member of the 7th Medical Battalion.  I think he left before that group was established.
 That is as I remember.

MR VALLY: Well, let's talk about the 7th Medical Battalion.

MR CILLIERS: I want to put it on record, as far as Dr Mijburgh's evidence is concerned.

MR VALLY: Well, Special Forces because, let's understand it, there was a Special Forces Unit which had a medical component to it, are you aware of that?

MR BASSON: The Special Forces of the South African Defence Force, had a Medical Unit attached, yes.

MR VALLY: And that Medical Unit became 7th Battalion?

MR BASSON: During the course of time yes, with certain additions, a certain organisation developed, 7th Medical Battalion which took over the medical supporting functions.

MR VALLY: And you were the Commander there?

MR BASSON: Yes, for a period.

MR VALLY: And Dr Mijburgh, he was before 7th Battalion existed, but he was in the Special Forces Unit, the medical component thereof?

MR BASSON: Dr Mijburgh was a member of the Defence Force Headquarters, where he because of his abilities as a Doctor and his operational abilities, provided medical support to various Security Force components.

MR VALLY: If I say a number of medical people who were your front companies, operating under Project Jotta originated or at some stage, were in Special Forces Medical Unit, or in 7th Battalion, would I be wrong?

MR BASSON: How many are there?

MR VALLY: Well, you tell me.

MR BASSON: I think about four.

MR VALLY: At least four?  Fine.

MR BASSON: And it should be seen against the background of front organisations where hundreds of people were employed.

MR VALLY: Dr Immelman says that these items on this list, TRC52, were delivered always in a very surreptitious manner to these people, Chris, Koos and Johnny Koertzen, initially instructed by you and thereafter with arrangements made via your secretary.  What is your response to that?

MR BASSON: Can Mr Vally just explain to me what he means by surreptitious, I don't know what he is meaning.

MR VALLY: Well, is there anything about Dr Immelman's affidavit which you disagree with?

MR CILLIERS: With respect, that is an unfair question.  This is a very long statement and later on you can be criticised because you did not disagree with this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes no, I agree.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Let's start with paragraph 13.    Have you read paragraph 13?

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, I am sorry, at this stage I hear that the traffic is terrible outside.  An explanation is that perhaps it is because of the train strike and consequently the motor traffic is much worse than usual and it is - my position is that I am not available any further, and at this stage, we have come to a point where I have reached that situation.
 There is one aspect before I ask you to excuse me.  There is one question that Dr Basson did not answer or refused to answer, and that was whether Dr Basson had any scientific founding that certain substances like LSD, mandrax can be used to control crowds.  At that stage he had a problem to answer in the light of the situation.
 As the questioning developed and that as a single question, I ask you an opportunity to advise ... (tape ends) ... there is not one single aspect which has not been answered regarding the in camera proceedings, and after that, I have to ask you to take my position into consideration.
 It is also the position of Mr Du Plessis, Mr Arendse told me he is in an almost similar position, although his flight is ten minutes later, but my position is unfortunately of such a nature, that I can't remain here any longer.
 But before that ...

CHAIRPERSON: (No translation)

MR CILLIERS: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't there a strike at the airport?

MR CILLIERS: No, it is only train drivers.   It is their turn today.  Last week it was people at the airport.
 I want to advise Dr Basson and ask him an opportunity to answer that question Mr Vally asked initially.

MR BASSON: Mr Chairperson, the question Mr Vally asked me regarding the scientific founding of the use of these substances as incapacitants, and because you told me you were not technically inclined, I want to tell you want an incapacitator is.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, I see my learned friend is packing up.  As long as he is aware that I am going to continue asking questions, within the mandate period as set out in the Act, he is welcome to pack up and leave.

MR CILLIERS: No, I am not packing, I am just putting my things together.  I am still listening to what Mr Basson has to say.