Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

UNKNOWN: Based on the fact that I was going to look for this information...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.  This matter is adjourned till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Mr van der Merwe is excused from further attendance.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm indebted to you.

JUDGE WILSON: Would it be convenient if we were to take a short adjournment to all people to move their papers, books and other things into position for the hearing of the next matter?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, is the matter of Menera and I'm involved in that matter Ngo, and I've asked to be excused to prepare argument first of all and secondly I have also indicated in Chambers that there is a difficulty which has arisen in that the applications of Ngo and Motsamai have been consolidated now whereas ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: They have not been consolidated, they are being heard together.

UNKNOWN: I don't know what the difference in terminology means, but my understanding is that they are going to be heard simultaneously, Ngo is going to be sitting there, Motsamai is going to be sitting there and as we are dealing with Ngo we will be dealing with Motsamai as well. I am not prepared for that type of situation and I indicated that I will try my best to be ready by tomorrow morning for that situation.

JUDGE WILSON: I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean, that situation.  Are you not prepared to appear for Mr Motsamai? Are you appearing for him?

UNKNOWN: For Mr Motsamai?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were told some time ago the matter was set down.

UNKNOWN: I was told that it was set down for tomorrow and I was told that the matters would be heard in succession, I was not told that they were going to be heard tied together.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay we'll meet you this way, we'll deal Mr Ngo's matter this afternoon as far as we could go and if we reach the other matter, we'll proceed with that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair can I say this?  In the notifications of matters I did specify that the applicants must be here the day before so that if a matter that is set for that day is dealt with earlier we can proceed top the next matter.  So what I'm saying is that in as much as Motsamai's matter was set for yesterday, he was supposed to be here today.  He was supposed to be here for today and he's lawyer as well.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, were his lawyers told that they could now be heard with Ngo's matter?

UNKNOWN: His lawyers were not told that the matter will be heard with Ngo but they notified that they have to be here today and the matter might be heard today instead of tomorrow.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair I'm not aware of that unfortunately Mr Mthembu is not in front of me to admit or deny that, but I have in front of me a memorandum dated the 6th of May emanating from the speaker which says that I have decided to add on our role Mr Motsamai's application on Thursday 15 May 1997 together with Mr Ngo's matter for reasons that some of the incidents related in their applications are the same. Now there is attached...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Sorry can I object to that?  This is a memo addressed to Advocate Mpshe, Judge Ngoepe, Judge Wilson and Advocate de Jager.  I lent this copy to Advocate Memani solely for purposes of him to photocopy.  I don't see why it should be read into their record because it's a memo, not addressed to him but to the Committee members. The relevant letter addressed to Mr Mthembu, who is Mr Motsamai's lawyer knows that he had to be here early today to proceed with the matter, if we finish early with the other matter.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson there's also attached to it the role.  The role says that on...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: It seems to me that this is a matter that could perhaps be discussed in Chambers but I do say, looking at the role, it indicates that Mr Ngo's matter is to be heard on Wednesday and then only on Thursday do we see Mr Motsamai's matter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you're not appearing for Mr Motsamai are you?

UNKNOWN: I am Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: We will adjourn and discuss the matter in chambers together with the other lawyers concerned.       COMMITTEE ADJOURNS