Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-15

MR PRINSLOO: Well these two people were driven by circumstances. The fact that they just like the other applicants they did not do it for their own personal gain but they did it for something that they believed in. These people escaped from detention. They sent an urgent message to the Minister of Justice where they requested or asked him that amnesty will be given as well as not these specific applicants but other applicants across the country. That amnesty will be given to them and at that stage there was no talk of amnesty and they acted out of anger against the system and then acted again in the Worcester area. Not that I am agreeing with what they did or then the AWB but they were forced into those circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: They were forced to detonate a bomb in a shopping centre?

MR PRINSLOO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they do that?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, they did it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say the circumstances forced them to do it.

MR PRINSLOO: Well I am not saying or when I give evidence that it wasn't the right thing to do. We already lost the war.

MS CAMBANIS: And when they carried out with exactly the same modus operandi at Worcester that was not in the name of the AWB. Is that correct?

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And in fact there is nothing, they have not appeared before this Committee, there is nothing to suggest to this Committee that when they acted at Koesterfontein it also was not in the name of the AWB.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR PRINSLOO: It was in the name of the AWB.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few questions. Mr Prinsloo wouldn't you say that Mr Barnard was the best trained person in the AWB what do you mean? What training did he have?

MR PRINSLOO: What was given to me or the information I received was that he indicated that he was a highly trained person. Whether it was in the defence force and South African Police.

MR LANDMAN: What training did he have? What sort of training did he have?

MR PRINSLOO: It was specialised training that he received in explosives amongst others sniper work, self-defence and so forth. I cannot specifically say what courses he completed during his training.

MR LANDMAN: So as far as you were concerned he was able to assemble a bomb. Is that right?

MR PRINSLOO: I believe so. I believe he could do it.

MR LANDMAN: As far as you were concerned could he assemble a car bomb?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, that is possible.

MR LANDMAN: Well did he ever say that he couldn't do that?

MR PRINSLOO: No, he never said that he cannot do it.

MR LANDMAN: Can you explain why he had to get Mr Koekermoer to come assist him in assembling the car bomb?

MR PRINSLOO: There are finer details that went before this because after the building of such a bomb there are certain details that have to be adhered to for example the placing of the fuses, what type of fuses to use, delaying fuses or whatever mechanisms had to be used and if Mr Barnard knew about the latest technology I do not know.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Prinsloo where were you when you gave Mr Barnard the instruction to explode the first bomb on the Saturday in Johannesburg, sorry on the Sunday in Johannesburg?

MR PRINSLOO: I was in the Ventersdorp district.

MR LANDMAN: Were you at headquarters or where were you?

MR PRINSLOO: Well we were in the town area. I cannot say specifically that I was at head-office. It was in that area, in that immediate area of the head-office.

MR LANDMAN: Was your instructions to him that he should plant a car bomb or merely a bomb of some sort?

MR PRINSLOO: Well I can remember that we discussed that the bomb should be placed. It was also a proposal from his side that it should be a vehicle bomb. But as I have said we discussed it. General Ackerman also suggested that it should not be easy for the security police to detect it. If not anything else other than specifically a vehicle bomb.

MR LANDMAN: What I want to know from you, your instruction to Barnard was it to place a car bomb in Johannesburg?

MR PRINSLOO: As I have said to you I received the order that it should be a motor bomb. However, if it should not be realistically feasible for Mr Barnard we would have to devise another plan. As I have said we did discuss it and he then acquired a vehicle with which or wherein which he built a car bomb.

MR LANDMAN: Did he tell that he had found a car?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: When did he tell you that?

MR PRINSLOO: I can't remember specifically. I am trying but I can't recall specifically.

MR LANDMAN: Did he tell you who was going to be part of his group who would carry out this car bomb attack?

MR PRINSLOO: He mentioned that a person by the name of Myburg would be with him.

MR LANDMAN: Do you remember when that discussion took place?

MR PRINSLOO: No. I can't.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just very quickly take you back to the vehicle. Now you were supposed to supply those vehicles, yes? For the bombs, for bombs to be made in?

MR PRINSLOO: No, negative.

ADV GCABASHE: Unless I don't understand this very well. You know page 60 of Volume 1, Mr Le Roux again if I am not wrong, says that he assumes that you would make sure that cars would be provided so that bombs could be built in it but this was not realised. It is page 60. I am just paraphrasing it. It is a very short sentence. So he was part of the Johannesburg bomb group. You know nothing about that paragraph 21? Just read it.

MR PRINSLOO: No I have read it.

ADV GCABASHE: So you saying you knew nothing about it?

MR PRINSLOO: No, it could be that he intended that the patrols be carried out in four by four vehicles. Is that not what he could have been referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: So what he heard was wrong then?

MR PRINSLOO: Definitely.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you and apart from planting a bomb in Johannesburg on the Sunday did you give him any other instructions at the same time?

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage I don't believe that I received any other instructions.

MR LANDMAN: As far as he was concerned he had only one task and that was to plant the bomb in Johannesburg?

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, yes.

MR LANDMAN: Did you give him [intervention]

MR PRINSLOO: Naturally I did inform him that more things had to happen but I don't recall that we specifically discussed that there in terms of who had to go where and what still had to be carried out.

MR LANDMAN: When you say further things what - did you tell him what sort of things had to happen?

MR PRINSLOO: No. As I have just said to you I can't remember specifically what I would have said to him with regard to specific things which still had to take place. I definitely told him or informed him about the fact that he had to plant a car bomb in Johannesburg. We discussed that. If he had said: "Yes but a car bomb isn't going to work let's rather use a limpet mine." We would have discussed it and I would have taken this up with the Generals in Staff.

MR LANDMAN: Now when did you tell him or give him instructions to plant the bomb in Germiston?

MR PRINSLOO: Well, he didn't plant the bomb in Germiston.

MR LANDMAN: Did you not ask him to prepare that bomb?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, he was informed that he should  or that he was responsible for the checking of the bomb and that would include the pipe bombs as well.

MR LANDMAN: Did you give him instructions that after the bomb exploded in Johannesburg that he was to ensure that bombs exploded on a regular basis thereafter?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, we discussed it at a certain stage but when I said this to him I informed him that this must continue. The Staff had said it was good, we should just continue like that. I didn't specifically say: "Okay now you are going on that specific day and you are going to do something similar."