Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

UNKNOWN: ... his own accord.  This Government, this Central Government after finding out that people have defeated, the Moutse people have defeated them and the Imbokhoto has failed because of our resistance.  Then they
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used money and truly say, this thing we call a stomach.  If it is empty, it makes other people feel to think.  There were people who thought that they will take that money which the Government was promising them.  They would say they would pay this amount for your house.  Then the person would see that somebody has left and they have given him
R80 000.00.  Then he build a muddy house.  Then he would say if I may go my house is bigger, they would give me 
R120 000.00.  From there I would build a house by R20 000.00 and the other R100 000.00 I would put it in my pocket.  That is why other people said we should move.

MR MALAN: So they moved because of the cash incentive, of remuneration?

UNKNOWN: They were attracted by that financial incentives.  If they were not attracted by that they would not just leave and then Hippos would come and collect them.  They knew that the Moutse people were united against incorporation and we would be surprised if they wanted to leave.  Just because of being attracted by financial incentives, then they were loaded in the Hippos and they were taken to Emmerpan.  If you look at that Sanieskloof, there were no people, the big shopping centres were built, beautiful cars were bought and people are now back in this area because that shows that they were attracted by the finance.  They did not want that place, it is because of hunger.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not a political party rally.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chief.  I do not think I, at this moment in time, have further questions.  Thank you for your perspective.  I appreciate it.

UNKNOWN: Yes.
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CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any, Russell.

RUSSELL ALLY: Chief, I want to come back to this issue of policy and just get your thinking on some of these issues.  You said that Moutse was initially part of Lebowa and then it was excised, taken away and put under Central Government to control with the intention of incorporating it into Moutse.  Now, was the issue incorporation or was the issue homeland policy and independence?  I ask that because while Moutse was part of Lebowa, which we know was a homeland and later took independence, what was the attitude with regard to that issue of Moutse being part of Lebowa?

UNKNOWN: If you look carefully you would see for Moutse to be taken out of Lebowa to be taken to Central, it is a combination that during that time that in the general South Africa the political activities and the political thinking was mushrooming.  We are involved now with the national liberation and trying to help the old man that the homeland system was wrong because they were saying we will rather go back to Lebowa because we would say the two homelands are the same because our objective is we do not want to be under any homeland.  We want to be part of Central.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you are saying the issue was both incorporation and the homeland policy.  It was not just the fact that Moutse was going to be incorporated in KwaNdebele which led to resistance?  It was the whole policy of homelands itself?

UNKNOWN: That is the general policy.  The KwaNdebele issue was the major issue because if you are in a fight you use the other issue as a mobilising factor.  The incorporation issue was the mobilising factor which we used and we were politicising the old man by this incorporation
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issue.

RUSSELL ALLY: I want to come back to this issue of ethnicity and ethnic politics because I think it is important.  One of the jobs that we as the Commission have is at the end, when we write a report, the Act says we must try and give as complete a picture as possible of the conflict of the past and the perspectives and the motives.  Now, you did say that the issue was not a simple issue of a conflict between two ethnic groups, between Northern Sotho and Ndebele, but do you see the issue of ethnicity as actually playing a part and, if so, what part do you see it as having played in the conflict?

UNKNOWN: Well, people all them do not understand and you do not understand the same.  There are those who take time to understand some issues.  If you were listening to other old men who were talking you would hear them saying Ndebeles, but it shows that because this attack and this Imbokhoto group was coming from KwaNdebele there were generals by saying it is Ndebele.  So in the mind of a person who does not have the whole picture, he will make it an ethnic conflict and in the true sense it is not.  It is the Moutse people and the KwaNdebele Government and the Imbokhoto.  In an ordinary language people said we were fighting against the Ndebele people.

RUSSELL ALLY: But with respect Chief, when the issue of Moutse's incorporation was opposed in court, it was actually taken to court and, I am sure, you are aware and knowledgable about that, the issue of ethnicity was used, not so, to challenge Moutse's incorporation into KwaNdebele?

UNKNOWN: If you may remember well that at that time young people were on their way to politicise with the old
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people and because the old people have started this by being against being annexed to KwaNdebele we said we should not go to KwaNdebele, we want to go to Lebowa, but because this old men have planned this incorporation, it was framed in that way so that even in court they used that fact of saying we are the Sothos, we will not go to court because we warned that we were not able to go back to Lebowa because we said we do not want any homeland, we want to be under the Central Government.  That was the only chant at the time, but we did understand the trend.

RUSSELL ALLY: So, you are saying it was a tactic which you were forced to use because the court did in the end decide on the question of ethnicity?  It was part of the justification for homelands policies was that it would be ethnic groups and the issue of Moutse being made up mainly of Pedi, of Norther Sotho, the court actually said that that incorporation was not legal.  So you are saying that that was more a tactic than a belief in ethnic issues?

UNKNOWN: It is not necessarily a tactic in that way.  I tried to explain that originally among the old people they were looking at that ethnicity issue, but before even the court ruling we were able to show them the importance of this.  The questions of the homelands is we were saying KwaNdebele and Lebowa are just the same.  They are just the same as saying I do not want to go there and want to go there, but all of those people are one people.  It was a tactic on the other side, on the other perspective, but on the other perspective the old people had their own idea.  We, the young people, had to understand that.  We left it that way that even if they would argue in court about the ethnicity we will show them the real issue and they did
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understand us.

RUSSELL ALLY: From your understanding, why was the KwaNdebele Government especially people like S S Skosana, Ntolie and later Majozie, why were they so determined that Moutse should be incorporated into KwaNdebele?  What was behind that determination to have Moutse?

UNKNOWN: It is because they wanted to be given independence and in that way if they get that independence they would have a larger land and they were saying Moutse, is not bigger than Moutse.  They would have a sizable power because of the large land they will be given and they had knowledge that there are minerals in KwaNdebele.  Other people did examine that in our land there is some minerals, so they were interested in those again.