Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: In paragraph three at page 146, he says that himself and you petrol-bombed a house of an MK member, Bobby Sebotsa, where he was staying, it was his parent's home.  And that house is situated in Mpinda street, Botchabela, is that true?

MR MAMOME: This boy is lying.

MR VISSER: In paragraph four he says that yourself, him, Constable Mtyhala, Constable Morakile petrol- bombed a house belonging to a businessman, Nicos.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: That's a lie.

MR VISSER: Do you know Mr Nicos?

MR MAMOME: I know him. I beg your pardon, I know him.

MR VISSER: Can you tell the Committee anything about your relationship with Mr Nicos?

MR MAMOME: I would say he was my friend.  We visited him, we used to go out with him.  I began to associate myself with him through a certain person I was working with.  The name of my friend is Kabuza that is K-h-a- u-z-a, Kabuza.

MR VISSER: Now this Kabuza, we have heard evidence that he lived on the on the same property, he lived on Mr Nicos' property, is that correct, in a room?

MR MAMOME: Yes, he was renting at Nicos' place but these outside rooms.

MR VISSER: Now as far as the attack on Mr Nicos' house was concerned, there was an unfortunate incident that took place. Do you remember that?

MR MAMOME: You mean at Nicos' place?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Please tell the Committee about that.

MR MAMOME: This constable Kabuza committed suicide by shooting himself, he was himself at Kabuza's place, Nicos' place.

MR VISSER: There was an incident concerning a little girl, do you remember that?

MR MAMOME: It did not happen at Nicos' place, it happened at Rocklands.

MR VISSER: Alright, well just tell the Committee what happened there as far as you could ascertain.

MR MAMOME: Without mentioning the people's names, it happened that Captain Kholae informed us that a certain girl disappeared in Rocklands.  He was requesting that I should assist him in trying to find this girl.
    I went with Captain Kholae to a particular house at the corner.

MR VISSER: Can you just spell that surname Khoale?

MR MAMOME: K-h-o-a-l-e.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And you went you went somewhere, yes?

MR MAMOME: We went to Rocklands, the street is Mabule, M-a-b-u-l-e Street.  It was the corner house and next door to that house there was a garage owned by Nicos.

MR VISSER: Yes, and what did you find at the house?

MR MAMOME: We found a boy, we asked that boy about the where abouts of this girl because they last say them together.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Mamame, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  I think you don't have to tell us what everybody told you. If you could just perhaps tell us what what happened.
    Did you find this little girl?

MR MAMOME: Yes, the girl was in the wardrobe, she was strangled.  She was 'round six years old, her corpse was decomposed.  The incident is that we learnt about, we learnt that she - so what happened thereafter all the business people, that is the people owning businesses in ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: I heard the witness say: "we learnt that" but I didn't hear what they learnt.

MR MAMOME: I said we found a body in the wardrobe, this was a six year old girl, this body was already mutilated in that house.  Now these people ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was the body decomposed or mutilated?

MR MAMOME: Decomposed, Mr Chairman.  We don't know where the story came about that it was for muti purposes.  Now, the house was searched so that we could find if whether there were many children.

MR VISSER: Now after having found the remains of this unfortunate child, what happened as far as Mr Nicos' was concerned?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I would be committing myself.  His house was petrol bomb attacked but I would not say it was attacked by the community because of this discovered body.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Motsamai also said that Mr Nicos was a courier for the ANC in Lesotho.  Did you know anything about that, whether it was true or not?

MR MAMOME: I would not know that, Sir.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 5 at page 146 of bundle B, Mr Motsamai says that you and himself burned a motor vehicle belonging to Jannie Mohape.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: That is not true.

MR VISSER: And in paragraph 6 at page 147, he applied for ...[End of tape 4B - no follow-on sound]
Lesale - L-e-s-a-l-e and Constable Miningwa - M-i-n-i-n-g-w-a petrol-bombed the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana.  Now, did you know whether that - whether the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana, was in fact burnt?

MR MAMOME: I don't know that, Sir.

MR VISSER: And did you take part in any such illegal act?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 7 at page 147, Mr Motsamai says that himself and you organised that members of the uniform branch should shoot Citi Mzuzwana's younger brother, Zwelinzima Mzuzwana.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: That is a lie Sir.

MR VISSER: Can you remember about this incident?

MR MAMOME: I know that that person was shot but to ...[indistinct] certain police that that person should be shot, it would not happen. I did not do that. No policeman can be told by another policeman to do that.

MR VISSER: And there was a court case in which Mr Citi Mzuzwana, sorry Zwelinzima Mzuzwana, claimed damages. Do you know about that?

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it supposed to be ZweliNjaNi?

MR VISSER: It's Matthews, I think if I should, if I may be allowed to refer to Matthews?  Do you know of a court case which Mathew made to claim damages?

MR MAMOME: I would answer your question Matthews had a file at security branch.  I read at SAP5 that he sued the state for R90 000.

MR VISSER: Alright. If we can go over to the next paragraph, paragraph 8 at page 147.  Here Mr Motsamai says that he, together with yourself and Mr Ngo, were involved in the petrol bombing Citi Mzuzwana's house. He says and that house is situated in the former Xhosa section of Rocklands in Bloemfontein.  Is there any truth in that allegation?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 9 at page 147 he says that himself, that is Motsamai and you, burnt and petrol- bombed a motor vehicle belonging to one Thabang, T-h-a-b-a-n-g, who was a teacher at Vulamasango High School in Bloemfontein and who was an orgainser of the United Democratic Front.  Is it true that you participated in petrol-bombing a vehicle belonging to that person?

MR MAMOME: I think he's talking about Mr Thabatha, no Sir.

MR VISSER: Thabatha, T-h-a-b-a-t-h-a?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 10 at page 147, Mr Motsamai alleges that himself, you, Constable Morakile, Constable Mtyhala, Constable Litseho and Constable Lesale, L-e-s-a-l-e, petrol bombed the house of a teacher, Balosha who was a member of the UDF.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: He's lying.

MR VISSER: Now in paragraph 11 at page 147, he did not specifically implicate you, but - I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm thinking of 13, terribly sorry, Mr chairman.  In paragraph 11 Mr Motsamai says that you and he petrol-bombed houses of other political activists and he says, and he mentions the houses belonging to Khuze- K-h-u-z-e and Sekgopi- S-e-k-g-o-p-i Malebo, it looks like - M-a-l-e-b-o.  Do you know anything or did you take part in petrol bombing any houses including that of Mr Khuze or Malebo?  Sorry just repeat your answer please.

MR MAMOME: It's not like that, Sir.

MR VISSER: At page 148 paragraph 12, Mr Motsamai alleges that himself, you, Sergeant Sesedinyane and Constable Morakile, petrol-bombed a parish house in Botshabelo.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: That is not correct Sir.

MR VISSER: In fact, in his evidence he said that you wrote a letter to the priest, is that true?

MR MAMOME: I hear that for the first time today, maybe he is trying to colour his amnesty statement.