Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, we did not wait for it.  When we started, when Mr Gordhan was wrapped up in the blanket the rubber plastic was already there.

CHAIRPERSON: So what are you saying that when Mr Botha came into the room for the interrogation the stuff was available, this material?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, just to amplify on that and Mr Bothma I'm sure will confirm that, that at least four pieces of equipment if you want to call it that were required.  The blanket, the hood, the rubber/plastic, piece of material and a rope with string or some equivalent with which my body was tied and Mr Bothma will also I'm sure agree that there had to be an element of planning and premeditation in order that all of that would be available when the assault took place.

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, I don't know that Mr Duhr or I or I do not know that we had beforehand received instruction or collected these items out of our own motivation.  With Mr Botha's arrival there the things were there.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Gordhan's putting to you then, well just to follow on what he has putting, would you agree then that before the interrogation started, the interrogator must have expected at least the possibility of using that equipment before it started, otherwise why bring it?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, Sir.

MR GORDHAN: So I would have imagined that the same piece of equipment would have been used on Mr Lalla?

MR BOTHMA: I was not present with Mr Lalla but I believed that they used the same things.

MR GORDHAN: What is your - you're a senior officer now in the South African Police, do you see yourself as being loyal to the current government and what is your approach to the question of regret and reconciliation?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, it's correct I am still in the police and I have the rank of superintendent.  I feel sorry for what we had participated in and it took place during the circumstances of those times along with the influences which were upon us and seen in that light and I regret the fact that it had taken place and I agree with the reconciliation process which is ongoing in the country and I support it totally.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan.  Mr Lalla?

MR LALLA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nel?

MR NEL: I have none, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: One question, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Bothma, do you know why Mr Gordhan and Lalla had been detained in Bethlehem and not in Durban?

MR BOTHMA: I don't know exactly what the reason was for it, I believe with my personal opinion, I think it was to prevent them contacting them contacting their families or all the other detainees.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one thing, Chairperson.
	You've told us that this apparatus, these four items, were not in the room when this questioning commenced, there hadn't been in there at previous sessions, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Mr Gordhan, had he been questioned in that office before that in your presence?

MR BOTHMA: Yes he was questioned in that office in my presence.

MR LAX: And you don't know who brought those items into the room that day?

MR BOTHMA: No, Chairperson, I don't know if any of the other persons brought it there or who brought it there.

MR LAX: Was it not Colonel Botha?

MR BOTHMA: It is possible.

MR LAX: Because who else was in the room on that day?

MR BOTHMA: Myself, Lieutenant Duhr and Mr Gordhan.

MR LAX: So you have no recollection of who brought those items in?

MR BOTHMA: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I want you just to go back just for a moment.  We understand that Mr Botha left the room at the point he decided to do something else, is that correct?  At the point you ordered Mr Gordhan to turn around was Botha in the room or had he left the room?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I wonder if I could help to clarify that the initial questioning period of what I referred to as three minutes was at least an hour or two before the assault actually took place so in a sense it was two separate events.  If that ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: If you've heard what Mr Gordhan says, do you confirm that?

MR BOTHMA: I would agree with it, I cannot recollect it hundred percent but I can agree with it.

MR LAX: Sorry, I certainly didn't have that impression, that's a very helpful clarification if you like of the process of that day.  So are you saying that Mr Gordhan was questioned, were you present when he was initially questioned by Mr Botha?  That's prior to the torture?

MR BOTHMA: Yes, I was present.

MR LAX: Well tell us what happened then?

MR BOTHMA: During that interrogation, Sir?

MR LAX: During the initial interrogation, yes.

MR BOTHMA: Mr Botha came into the room, he asked very briefly certain questions to Mr Gordhan.  He did not obviously receive satisfactory answers to it and he left.

MR LAX: And then what happened?

MR BOTHMA: After quite some time, I don't know exactly how long it was, I cannot say whether it was ten or fifteen minutes or even an hour, Mr Botha returned and then the interrogation continued with the blankets and the plastic.

MR LAX: You see Mr Gordhan is suggesting it was over two hours later.  Well an hour to two hours, that's how he put it.

MR BOTHMA: I don't know, I would speculate.

MR LAX: But it was a reasonably long period of time?

MR BOTHMA: I really can't say, I don't know whether it was one hour or two hours, I cannot say that it could have been longer than an hour.

MR LAX: You see if you can't even remember that how can you remember how long the torture went on for, how can you be so sure that it wasn't more than fifteen minutes or maybe twenty minutes?

MR BOTHMA: I am certain of the time that the interrogation and torture lasted, it was brief and the questions were asked quickly and it was clear that we would not get any answers from Mr Gordhan.

MR LAX: You see the question I want to know is why are you able to remember that and yet you can't remember what the intervening period was?

MR BOTHMA: It's seven years ago, Sir.

MR LAX: Precisely, that's precisely the reason why I'm asking you.  I know it was a long time ago and that's precisely why I'm asking you why you're so sure about one thing but not about another?  I would expect that if you weren't sure about things you would be not sure about a whole lot of things?  Do you see my point?

CHAIRPERSON: You see what Mr Lax is getting at Mr Bothma is you've said that as far as you're concerned the interrogation and torture process lasted ten to fifteen minutes, plus minus fifteen minutes, you gave a time and we got the impression that you were fairly confident about what you were saying.  Now you've been asked, you've been told that there was a gap between the first interrogation involving Mr Botha and Mr Gordhan and then the torture and you've got no idea as to how long that period is between the first interrogation and the torture, you've got no idea at all.  Now what Mr Lax is asking you is well, how can you then be so sure in your own mind that the torture lasted for plus minus fifteen minutes when you can't remember the intervening period, the length of the intervening period.

MR BOTHMA: The torture - the interrogation during the time when the blanket and all the other things were used, I was actively part of that, I recall it specifically although I'm not saying specifically that it was ten to fifteen minutes, it could not have been longer than that and the time period before, I cannot even recall what I did during that time.