Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-29

ROKAYA SALOJEE: No I don't because after I got engaged he got detained for 100 days, I think it was just two days after my engagement.  I knew what I married.  And I also know he used to tell me what you don't know you can't talk so it's better, we both can't be unemployed.  So at least if I am unemployed then you are there.  He always used to say pack my bag and keep it ready.  After he was banned we used to have a lot of arguments because I feel he was banned and he used to leave the country to go and take people over the border.  I mean people used to come to my house and then I knew they were going to the border.  I used to get scared if they come knocking at the door and my husband is not there.  But like I say, I was prepared I knew what I married.  He also told me he said if I go to jail then you must make a life for yourself, and if you want to leave the country, if you want to take an exit then you should do that if it's your wish to do that.  I didn't answer him but I knew at that time I had a family, I haven't got a father but I do have a mother, and she always used to tell me you must never leave the country because I will never see you again, with the result I never left the country until 1979 because I knew I could come back.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much for telling us your story.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mrs Salojee.  Any questions from the other Commissioners?

DR RANDERA: Rokaya how are you?
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ROKAYA SALOJEE: I am okay.

DR RANDERA: Rokaya let me just say before I ask my questions that one of the events that made me think as a teenager, because I was a teenager at the time, was the death of Bubla.  And I remember as a school student coming from (...indistinct) to your house and singing outside your house and you coming out just after the death of Bubla.  I just want to raise two issues.  One is you say Bubla was a political person, I wonder if you can actually just enlighten us a little more about that because that period as Yasmin has already pointed out was a very difficult historical period in our lives.   Political parties had been banned, treason trials were taking place and here was a young man from a relatively comfortable family who was willing to make this sacrifice.
 If I can also add my second question, you mentioned several times in your statement the name Swanepoel, was this gentleman implicated directly in the torture of Bubla, it's not clear from your statement?  Secondly, was there any sympathy ever shown by the same gentlemen when they came to your house after the death of Bubla?

ROKAYA SALOJEE: Number one, no they were not sympathetic.  Number two, at that time we knew that Van Tonder was in charge of the Indians, but he never tortured anybody.  I don't know but I don't think so.  But Swanepoel, like I say, if they go to Greys Building you are not there so you cannot say who tortured him.  I can only tell of the event when they told me, Swanepoel told me your husband is dead now you are going to commit suicide at the Zoo Lake.  So I cannot tell you exactly but I am sure at that time there are people that were alive and came out to tell the story, but I cannot JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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tell the story because I wasn't detained to come out and say well Swanepoel has tortured me, because they wouldn't tell you who tortured your husband.  They would normally change.  You would have sometimes five people standing there in the room and questioning you because I used to go there, practically every month I had to go and report there they would question you and the next time when you go there again, you go to the bench you would find somebody else that you have got to register and when you go up to the security then there was maybe one person that was present that you know the last time, but then there were other people that you didn't know because they never introduced themselves.  You had to find out for yourself who the people are.  So there were so many changes that you eventually don't know how many names there are.  Are there five, are there ten or are there a hundred, you were not sure, and that's - I was not sure but I knew that Swanepoel was the one that told me that he is dead, you are the next to commit suicide.  
 Like I said only those who were detained and came out can say who and who tortured them, but I cannot say.  That is what I would like to know. That's why I have asked the Commission to enquire and find out.  I can only give you one name and that's Swanepoel.  From there I am sure you could get the other names.  There are many people that were tortured and detained so they can give you other names.  Eventually I am sure you will come out to the people that tortured Bubla because I would like to know.

DR RANDERA: Can you just say a little about what I said about Bubla's political involvement.

ROKAYA SALOJEE: I believe he took part from the passive resistance.  And then he used to work for the Indian
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Congress.  And then he used to work for the ANC after the ANC was banned or whatever.  Then he used to go to the Transvaal Indian Congress and that's all I can tell you.  Like I say at that time when I got engaged to Bubla things were only (...indistinct) in the sixties, and in '63 and '64 I think it was the worst period, that you were even scared to ask your husband that do you belong to this party or do you belong to that party, but you knew because the people that used to visit my house I knew that they were political people that came to visit me, like Cherise(?) Nullabai(?) Indress(?) and people like that - of course which you would know.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Dr Magwaza and then Piet Meiring.

DR MAGWAZA: Mrs Salojee you mentioned that the clothes that were giving to you after your husband's death were not the same clothes he died wearing?

ROKAYA SALOJEE: Ja.

DR MAGWAZA: What type of clothes were you expecting that he would have?

ROKAYA SALOJEE: I was expecting - the clothes they gave me back, although I knew he was tortured, but I expect the clothes they gave me back that was in the cell they would have had more brains to wash it than just give it to me like that, but the clothes he died in I can believe because when you fall from the 8th or the 9th floor that there will be blood, but I didn't expect them to be so stupid, or maybe they didn't care to give me back the clothes to show me that we did kill him or whatever, or we did torture him whatever it be.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor Meiring.
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PROF MEIRING: A very brief question Mrs Salojee.  During this difficult time were you able to associate with other families who were in the same boat, did you receive encouragement or sympathy from other families.

ROKAYA SALOJEE: I was in touch with the Mandela's, I was in touch with the Sisulu's and quite a few Whites, Sheila Weinberg and Ilza and them.  I knew 99% of the people that was involved in politics, Black, White and Indian.