Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja I don't remember myself getting into the office but I remember at one instance I managed to get in where I could see that there is an entrance on the left, there is another entrance on the right and if you can see, you can see the bar, the make of the room which is a bar - then I saw that this is a bar.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: In other words you were inside the club premises?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes and on that particular day.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Inside the building itself?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And there was no objection to you going in there?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I went in with that person.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You went in?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I went in with that person.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You walked in with him?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, we were conversing and by then he must have used the entrance on the left.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Where you threw the bomb from?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: He must have used the entrance on the left and then he was standing right in front of the door and there was - at least inside the glass entrance.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: In his office?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Not in his office.  We were just about to enter the left entrance, the entrance on the left.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Actually inside the club premises themselves?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, let me repeat.  I was at least inside or past the glass entrance.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Let me explain, you can only see that office in the lounge, the far end of the lounge, if you're right inside the club premises.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, that's why I said to you we appreciate that that person must be having an office here.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That's quite right, so you must have been right inside the club building then?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The very act of coming in after the practices there, when the other people are going to get into their cars I mean was common sense that this person had something to do with the ...[intervention]

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Did you speak to him on his own then?  Did you speak to him on his own?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: On his?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Was he on his own when you spoke to him?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And no objection was raised to you entering the buildings?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja because we were conversing since just before he could enter the premises and in fact he stopped and faced me this way whilst just before he could enter the left entrance then I was right inside having passed the glass entrance and further on that even comrade Tumiso have gone in with that person.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Was he with you?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No I mean it would raise suspicions too.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Don't you think it would raise suspicions if you as a non-member went into the club building on your own?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No we didn't raise suspicions because we had good cover.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I'm just putting that to you just to support my statement that the club is a completely non-racial club.  	In your planning of this operation, before I come to - sorry Mr Chairman, I haven't got the photographs here but I think there is a photograph which was taken - I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I'm looking for the photograph.  If you look at photo 26 - that is a picture of the lounge - isn't it?  Taken from the position from where you threw the bomb, am I right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: You're trying to say the entrance is on this side?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You see those red chairs on the forefront?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: That?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You see those red chairs at the bottom of the picture?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: The entrance is just behind those red chairs.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: So that would be where you stood when you threw the bomb.  Am I right - that I saw you there.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja behind the, behind the..[intervention]

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Behind those red chairs.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Red chairs.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That's right.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No slightly to the right.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No you'll be slightly to the left - the door was actually in the corner.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Slightly to the right.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: There's another door on the right yes but you didn't use that door, you used the door on the left, I saw you standing there.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, but I'm saying from this position it should be slightly to the right.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No, you're wrong, it's to the left, I'm telling you, I know it better than you do.  If you look ahead on the far end you'll see curtains hanging on the right hand side.  Look there and you'll see them.  You see them?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: But the office is behind those curtains -  so if you saw the office you must have been well inside the club premises.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: That's why I say it was appreciated that the person has an office.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Yes, so you were right inside the club premises.  It's the only point I'm trying to make.  You were right inside the club premises.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, if you could just explain your use of the word "appreciated" I think that's where the misunderstanding is?  What you mean by "it was appreciated".

MR MBANDAZYO: Mr Xundu - I think he has explained that because this man, they saw him come in again when they are there, going inside that building so they understood that he had an office, he was working there, not that he was inside the office himself, he knew where the office - where it was located.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: In other words it was a positive conclusion.

MR PRIOR: It was a positive conclusion as his evidence - look Mr Xundu's evidence is that he never went into that office.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No I accept that, but he saw the office, I'm just trying to establish that he went right into the club premises and didn't stand on the fringe of the premises as he tried to convey.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I didn't say I saw the office.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You didn't say?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I didn't say I saw the office.  I anticipated that the person has an office there.

MR PRIOR: Mr Stanford, just let me help you here, he's using the military term "appreciate".  That is a term which implies that they did intelligence work and as a result of that they were able to confirm that something is in fact so.  It's just jargon.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I appreciate that, I was on the Airforce for five years Mr Chairman, I know that.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Is it?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: But you saw the actual office yourself with your own eyes didn't you?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You didn't see the office?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Then how did you know the office was there?

ADV SANDI: He's trying to say here he didn't know as a matter of fact that there was an office there but this is the conclusion they came to that if this gentleman keeps on going that direction, surely there must be an office.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I accept that but I understood from his evidence, perhaps wrongly, that he actually saw the office in the building, so I understood him to say in his evidence.