Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

JUDGE DE JAGER: The fifth person who has been referred to apparently resided on the farm.  Do they know this person who has been referred to?

ANDRIES DAVID JACOBUS VAN TONDER: I do not know Petrus.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you not know of a shebeen or a tavern which was there on the farm, because  or at least on a neighbouring farm where such a Petrus could have resided?

ANDRIES DAVID JACOBUS VAN TONDER: There was a Sam who lived there.  I heard that these persons were on the neighbouring farm before they attacked us, that is what I heard.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And on the neighbouring farm, where would they have been, with whom, do you know?

ANDRIES DAVID JACOBUS VAN TONDER: No, I don't know with whom they were because there are various huts there and I don't know who they were visiting.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Let me be blunt, Chairperson.  My contention and my submission is that the Committee should not attach weight on this fifth person, Chairperson, because this fifth person, Chairperson, in as much as he's mentioned, Chairperson, there is no role which comes up even in court Chairperson, definitely if Chairperson, this person was part of the attack on the victims' farm, definitely he would have been charged, he would have been the fifth person, so it's clear Chairperson that this fifth person was never part of this attack.  So Chairperson, it's my submission that this fifth person should not be taken into account with regard to this incident.
	Chairperson, without wasting time, Chairperson, it's my submission that therefore Chairperson, in terms of Section 20 (1) and also (ii) the applicants have met the requirements of the said sections and that the Committee should grant them amnesty as applied and as such, Chairperson, unless the Committee would like me to address it on any other specific point, that's  my submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Kachelhoffer, any submissions?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, just in short, as the Committee realises, the victims in this application don't make any objection to the granting of amnesty to these applicants.  Concerning the point of the four or five members who took part in the attack on the farm, I can just mention that my submission in this regard is, if it was four, five, or ten who had attacked this farm, it wouldn't have made a difference.   The incident has been described I think from my side objectively and also was done in a very open manner, I think especially applicant number 2, if you have to look at his evidence objectively, it was very open.  	So in short, we do not have any problem with the granting of amnesty and I think concerning the victims, I think it would be apt to refer it to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just when you are there, I see we've got a postal address for Mr and Mrs van Tonder.  Do they have a physical address?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Mr Chairman, can you just repeat, sorry, about the postal address?

CHAIRPERSON: I have a box postal address, do they have a physical address so that if we referred them to the Committee on Reparation and Rehabilitation, they would be easier to be found?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Mr Chairman, they're staying on a farm outside Glen known as Safier, the farm Safier, that is the only physical address which is known to me.  I don't know whether the Committee can work through our office address maybe, my firm's address, I don't know whether that is appropriate?

CHAIRPERSON: We will do that if it's easier to do that.  ...(indistinct - mike not on), but your colleague there, McIntyre and van der Post, 12 Baum Street, Bloemfontein.

MR KACHELHOFFER: That is indeed my physical work address.  My postal address is P O Box 540 Bloemfontein, 9300.  I don't know whether you need my work telephone number as well, that is (051) 5050200, if that would be of any help.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything would be of help that we could conduct some communication, thank you Mr Kachelhoffer.  ms Mtanga, any brief submissions?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, I would like to leave this matter in your hands.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you don't have a reply?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO REPLY BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  This brings us to the conclusion of the applications of Mr Titus Lebea and Mr King Lebea.  We are going to reserve our decision.  It will be delivered within the next three weeks in writing and all parties involved would be advised, but before we adjourn for lunch, I wish to thank the legal representatives in this matter, that you have been of great assistance to us and what you have been doing will definitely be taken into consideration to come to a just decision.  Thank you.
	Ms Mtanga, I don't think the other matters are ready, are they?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson, the next matter that we are to move on is the Thejane application and as discussed in chambers, the representative of Mr Thejane will only be here after lunch, so I would like to request the Committee to allow Mr Mbandazayo to consult with Mr Pudumo, who is also supposed to come next on - today, on today's role.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take the important business of adjourning and excusing those who would not be involved in the coming matters.  Thank you very much Mr Kachelhoffer.  Thank you very much Mr and Mrs van Tonder.  Go well.  We shall adjourn for lunch.  We shall resume at 1.30.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS