Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

DR TSOTSI: Was there any relationship at all between yourself and an ANC member?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No.

DR TSOTSI: Is that why you shot all ANC members?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Because when they attacked, they do not only attack us young people, but also the elderly and children who could not defend themselves.

MR MATTHEWS: So what you are telling us, if you received instructions to kill an ANC member, you would carry out those instructions?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I actually beg your pardon for this, but it pleased me immensely if I was to attack an ANC member, because I knew that one of us would die.

MR MATTHEWS: Well how do you feel about it now?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I regret it deeply, because the sad part is that we were fighting amongst ourselves as black people, we were actually killing each one of us.   If I could, I would actually show you how deeply I regret these actions.

MR MATTHEWS: But you are honestly telling this Committee exactly how you felt at the time, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, at the time that's how I felt, because the situation at that point was very tough, everybody was being killed, from the elderly to the children.

MR LAX: Mr Mbhele, you were not fighting a political war, you were fighting a tribal war with the ANC, is that right?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, that was not so.   We, as IFP members, used to actually fight directly with the ANC, because homes were burnt down.

MR MATTHEWS: The next incident you've applied for amnesty is the murder of Maphuthalenza Dlamini?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.

MR MATTHEWS: Maphuthalenza Dlamini lived in Umbonzini Reserve under Chief Xolisa, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: According to your affidavit, he was a member of the ANC, who worked together with Muzi, the person we have discussed in the previous incident?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Maphuthalenza was Muzi's uncle.

MR MATTHEWS: According to your affidavit, he was a spy and an informer for the ...(indistinct) South African Police?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.   When we were once at camp, the police arrived and they spoke to him and they wanted to check our weapons, and I refused that they do this, but eventually they confiscated our weapons and they had actually arrived at Maphuta's home.

MR MATTHEWS: Why was it necessary that he be killed?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He was a police informer.   It pleased him to see IFP members being killed, that is how I regarded it.

MR MATTHEWS: And who gave you instructions for this killing?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I left my comrades at the camp and I was on my way to Mboveni and I met him along the way and I felt that that was the opportunity to kill him.

MR MATTHEWS: So you met him by chance on the way and you then killed him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: We met him on the way, or I met him on the way and I asked him what time it was.

MR MATTHEWS: And you say the reason for this was he was an ANC member and also a police spy, according to you?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.   I asked him ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I want to go back a little bit please, you say the police arrived and wanted to see your weapons?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your reaction?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I did not agree that they should do this, I actually told them that they would actually get them when I'm dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they see your weapons?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, we carried them in our hands.   They wanted us to hand them over.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do so?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they confiscate them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: They did not get them, because I told them that they would only actually get those weapons when I'm dead.

CHAIRPERSON: So they did not confiscate your weapons?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did these policemen come from?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I think they came from the High Flats Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: And they could see you were armed, you refused to hand over your weapons and they left you?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, they then left.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MATTHEWS: Now, there is a paragraph right at the end of, paragraph, on page 9, he says
"I carried this act out on my commander's instructions, Beki Mkhize"?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He was a spy, an informer, because when the police came to search that home I actually reported to him that we had encountered such a problem.

MR MATTHEWS: But did you kill this person on the instructions of your commander, Beki Mkhize, or did you not?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: It was on Beki's instructions, because he actually said that in that case he should die.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that specifically about this person, that he should die?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did your commander, whom you have told us was in overall command of all the IFP people there, Beki Mkhize, did he specifically tell you that this person should die?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I actually spoke to him directly about the problem we had encountered.

CHAIRPERSON: And he told you to kill this person?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As in certain other incidents that you've spoken about, and these were instructions from your superior in the IFP, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He was a commander, our commander ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: ...in charge of us as people who actually guarded that place.

CHAIRPERSON: And he told you to kill people?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Some I would kill at my own initiative without any ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about your own initiative, I'm talking about the cases where you said you were instructed by your commander, Beki Mkhize, to kill people.

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: It doesn't pertain to all the people that I killed.   He was not always with me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but there were ones that he told you to kill, that your commander in the IFP told you to kill people, that's what you've been saying in your evidence?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, for example Maphuthalenza, that's where he is actually the one who gave me the instruction to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew this was contrary to IFP policy, you've told us the IFP preached peace.   How could your commander now instruct you to kill?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He had no other choice because of the political situation in the area.   We had to do this because we are the ones who were being attacked and killed and no-one was being arrested, we are the people who were actually being arrested.

MR MATTHEWS: So you had no personal grievance against Maphutalenza Dlamini?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The only problem is that he was not trust-worthy.

MR MATTHEWS: And because he was an ANC member, you killed him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, because he had actually been recruited by Muzi.

CHAIRPERSON: He had been recruited by who?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Muzi.

MR MATTHEWS: How did you know that?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: At the Mbovini area, there were ANC members.  When Muzi was killed, they then went to the ...(indistinct) area and enlisted as IFP members, just because their leader had been killed.

MR MATTHEWS: You still haven't answered the question, how do you know that Maphutalenza was an ANC member?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: His name was on the list, a list with names of people who had been ANC members before.

MR MATTHEWS: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Who prepared this list?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I am not really sure, because I do not know the people from Mbovini well, I do not know their names, although I may know them by sight.

MR LAX: How did you get hold of this list, or who got hold of this list?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I actually saw it on someone from Mbovini, whose name I do not remember.

MR LAX: What did the list look like, if you saw it?