Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, I still had my firearm because after getting into the house, I went straight to him.

UNKNOWN: How did you identify this person who was inside the house, as Qobani because it was at night?  Was the house lit?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, the light was on.  The (indistinct), the streetlight outside, the light could lit the dining room of the house.  The light from the streetlight, and I knew, I knew Qobani.

UNKNOWN: Okay, so you are saying through the assistance of this light in the street, you could identify this particular person who was in the house as Qobani?  It was well lit for you to can identify this person?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, it was not well lit, but at least one would be able to identify a person.

UNKNOWN: After you got into the house, what happened next?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We fought, he had an assegai, he stabbed me with that assegai.  I lost my firearm as I was struggling this assegai, because he had already stabbed me at the time.

UNKNOWN: Did you manage at any stage during that incident, to fire any shots at him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, it was not possible for me to shoot at him because he was nearer, he was very close to me, I couldn't shoot him.  He had a short assegai.  He stabbed me and we were struggling and I was trying to get hold of this assegai and I lost my AK47 in that process.

UNKNOWN: How did you manage to get out of the house?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We did not leave the house until Themba came in.  He stabbed him with a sharp object from the AK47.  There is something that is like a knife and it is embedded in the AK47, he used that thing to stab him.

UNKNOWN: You are saying Themba stabbed Qobani with that object from the AK47, is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, he stabbed him with that and he started fighting with him now.
	They were fighting and I went out of the house and I fired.

UNKNOWN: So at some stage, because you said initially you lost your firearm or your AK47 in the struggle with Qobani, at some stage you managed to get hold of it again and you fired.  At who did you fire?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He was now fighting with Themba as Themba was holding an AK47.  When he left me alone, I was already stabbed in the neck with that sharp object that he had.
	As he was still fighting with Themba with this AK47, I took my firearm and I fired.

UNKNOWN: Did your shot strike him, could you see whether he was struck by your shot that you fired when he struggled with Themba?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I shot and after that I saw him falling at the dining room door.

UNKNOWN: Were you shooting at close range?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: So when he fell, you assumed that you have hit him with your bullet?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, because I saw him falling.  I told myself that I did hit him.  I was a bit dizzy because I was also stabbed.

UNKNOWN: So you cannot tell this Committee today on which part of his body, if he was hit, as to where on his body was he hit?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I cannot tell because I just shot and I saw him falling and I was dizzy.  I just saw him falling after the shooting, and I also fell.  Themba came to my rescue.

UNKNOWN: When you completed your form for amnesty, that was in 1997, you stated that you killed this particular person.  Why is it so when actually this person was still alive, did you say that he was killed in this particular incident?  Can you give an explanation?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It is because I assumed, because I know that a firearm can kill a person.
	I told myself that he was dead because I saw him falling.

CHAIRPERSON: You went there to kill him, you shot him and therefore you thought you had killed him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Is there anything else that you have left out regarding these two incidents that you have mentioned that you wish to bring to the attention of the Committee?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: When you remember, if you remember anything, then you can raise it.  Do you understand?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Today you are here for an application for amnesty.  Do you wish to say anything in particular to the victim, to the person that you have kidnapped and you have attempted to kill?  Is there any particular message that you would like to send to him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I just want to say that we were forced by the situation at the time, and we were also having our own Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see him in the hearing today?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to address him?  Do you wish him to hear what you want to say?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then, proceed.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I am applying for amnesty.  I was not prepared to do such a horrible thing.  I want to apologise to him, I apologise for what I did.
	I apologise for what I did to him.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NHLAYISI

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I have no questions, however, I am instructed to make one remark on record to the applicant on behalf of the victim, if I may do so.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, although the victim feels he is not opposing the application, he is saying that he has suffered a lot because of the seriousness of his injuries.  Today he is still suffering, he still has a lot of pain which changed his life, and he feels that the applicant will never or can never do anything that will change this, and he feels at this stage without meeting the applicant, he is not in a position to forgive or to forget this incident which changed his life forever.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe Mr Steenkamp, was he ever struck during that shooting, did he sustain any injuries - was not able to specify?

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry, sorry Mr Chairman, yes indeed, the victim was seriously injured by the shooting incident.  He spent a lot of time in the Natalspruit Hospital before being released.  We don't, unfortunately have the medical records, apparently they are not available Mr Chairman.
	He was injured, shot in the thigh, there was also other injuries to his body which changed him, he had to undergo a few operations as well and even today, he is suffering from that.  He is unfortunately not in a position to supply any further details of his specific injuries Mr Chairman.  Thank you sir.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Mr Motjale, just help me understand exactly what you are saying.  Are you essentially saying that you had no personal knowledge of Qobani's activities?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No.

ADV GCABASHE: You are saying you too knew of Qobani's activities before Vusi told you about them?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Vusi came to tell us that there was a person that looked more like a suspect because the people from that area, used to come to him and complain and try and get some information.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I understand you to say that, but my question really is, you personally, did you know about his activities or the other way of looking at it is, were you simply following orders because Vusi said certain things and you were a member of the SDU under Vusi's command, you then did certain things?  This is what I am trying to understand.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, I had no personal knowledge, but Vusi was our Commander.

ADV GCABASHE: You lived at Mlungeni Section, 2192 Xaba Street in Mlungeni Section, was that Qobani's home?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, he used to visit that house, just before the violence.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just in terms of who had the authority to give particular orders, I understand the kidnapping fell within Vusi's jurisdiction, he gave that command.  He also mentioned that Qobani should be killed.  I am right about that?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.