Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Segobodi, good afternoon.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome.  Can I ask you stand so that Professor Meiring can take the oath with you.
PROF. MEIRING: Mrs  Segobodi can you please put your right hand into the air and repeat after me, everything I say will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: (sworn states)
PROF. MEIRING: Thank you very much.  You may sit down.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Good morning, Mrs Nora.  We're asking you to introduce the lady next to you.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: The one was supposed to be here is my daughter who's in Johannesburg, here name is Ikageng Segobodi.

MS SEROKE: On the 5th of January in 1991, you are coming to tell us what happened on that day when the people came, came to your house and destroyed and beaten people.  Can you explain to us and explain to us in detail they way you want us to understand.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: On the 5th of January 1991, I saw people, the Botswana police coming to the house.  They didn't want to listen what I wanted to tell them.  I asked them, what do you want, then they told me, when you say, what do want, what do you mean ?  When they were still talking that way, one of them said, this woman  and their daughter, they should be arrested, but  I asked them, what are you coming to do ?  Then I think I made a mistake by doing that.  Four police vans arrived at the gate.  They didn't want to hear anything.  My son was in the hippo, the second one ran away.  When they arrived, they said, the boy who was here, where is he ?  Then I told them that he has run away whilst you were looking.  They say, don't tell us nonsense, he's in the house, so I said to them open all the rooms and look for him.
 One of them went to look for a screwdriver in the Hippo, then opened the toilet, then he said, where is he ?  Then I told him that he has run away.  One of my daughters was hiding in the house, then they broke the front door, then they were able to open the kitchen door again.  They pulled my daughter, after assaulting me, they assaulted my daughter, then they dragged us and they were kicking us on the ribs.  They injured me on the neck  with the back of the gun.  A certain stout man said to me, I should climb over the Hippo.  Then I said, do you want me to climb the Hippo, take me, then he put a bench, then he said to me, I should climb the Hippo.  Then I was struggling to climb over, then he put a hand, his hand, his hand was so big.  I put my toe, feet on his hand, then I climbed together with my daughter.  Then whilst I was still in the air, he, he threw me inside the Hippo.  Therefore, he didn't even say excuse me.  Then  it was myself and my two children.  
 We, the place  was crowded.  They were hitting, they were assaulting us the way they wanted.  They dislocated my left arm,  they injured my neck, at the back of my neck, then they said my daughter should climb inside  the car boot.  They beat him  with canes.  When she tried to run away they would follow  her.  After that a certain boy said, kill these people, you're wasting time.  If it was myself, I could have shot them.  Then they put us into police vans.  They took us to Motswedi.  
 They made us to be on a queue and they were assaulting us  in whatever way.  They took us to the cells, they closed the doors.  We slept in that, in cells.  At 10 o'clock in the evening, they come to interrogate us, then they said, what were you arrested for ?  We said to them, we don't know why were arrested for.  They took us at 7 o'clock, and we didn't know what was happening at that time.  Then they asked us, who is your Chief in this area.  I told them that my Chief  is Segobodi.  Then they said, you say Segobodi ?  Segobodi is normally the Chief, so they said.  Then I told them that Segobodi is still a Chief.   Then the said, why don't you take Boputhatswana I.D. ?  Then they said, they asked us, why are we hating Boputhatswana.  We told them that we don't know the purpose of Boputhatswana.  They said, why do you take South African I.D. book ?  We told them that we grew up in South Africa.  If you say to them your Chief is Segobodi, they would assault you more and more.  Then they said to us, why don't you want to take Boputhatswana I.D. ?  I told them that I don't know whether Boputhas is going to be  deposed as it is.  In the morning we were taken.  They were pointing us with their guns and then said, go and kill people again.  If you kill them we'll come back to you.  That's how far I can go.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Nora, when those people came  to your house and took your children, your son, your daughter and yourself, what did they say you did ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: We, somebody in the family had died and I sent him to help and then he was taken by the Hippo on the road.  In front of us there was a wedding.  I was in that wedding and when they passed, they think  we were shouting at them.  I told them that we were not shouting at them but we were ululating because there is a wedding.

MS SEROKE: What, were you several members of any political organisation, or yourself, a member of any particular organisation ?  Where your children members of a political organisation, or yourself, a member of a political organisation ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: No, we're just ordinary people.

MS SEROKE: What they came there for, was that we, you were subjects to ........... Segobodi ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: Yes.

MS SEROKE: Was Kosi Segobodi deposed of his Chieftanship ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: No, we knew him as our Chief.  We just heard from those policemen that he was deposed as a Chief.

MS SEROKE: Who was placed on his behalf as a Chief ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: The Chief is Segobodi.

MS SEROKE: Was Chief Segobodi loyal to Chief Mangope ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: No.  He was denied that people should be amalgamated to Mangope's government.

MS SEROKE: Are you related to Chief Segobodi ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: No, I'm not related to Chief Segobodi.

MS SEROKE: Just the surname is the same ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: Yes.

MS SEROKE: You were saying you were having South African I.D.  Why didn't you want to Boputhatswana I.D. ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: It's not because we didn't want to take them but we didn't want just to take them for the sake of taking them.

MS SEROKE: Let me repeat my questions.  You wanted to have South African I.D. books.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: We had them all the time.

MS SEROKE: You didn't want to change to Boputhatswana I.D. books?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: Yes, we didn't want to change them.

MS SEROKE: The police who came to your house, were they South African, Boputhatswana Government, were they just trying to, to observe what was happening in  the township or was something happening ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: I don't know what was the problem, because every boy in the village was there anyway.

MS SEROKE: You said when you left, when you left the cell, you said your son was left in the cells for two weeks.  You said when you were released, did you take, did you lay a charge against the police ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: We, we went to the lawyer.

MS SEROKE: Who was your lawyer then ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: His name is Clive, but I don't remember the woman's name.

MS SEROKE: Did your case, did your case appear in court ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: No.

MS SEROKE: Where are the children ?  That's Thabang and Ikageng.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: They're in Johannesburg.

MS SEROKE: What are they doing in Johannesburg ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: They are working.  They're looking for work in Johannesburg.

MS SEROKE: With whom are you  staying ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: I'm a housewife.

MS SEROKE: Thank you, Ma'am.  Who, who is the Chief now in your, in your area ?

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: That's Papsi Segobodi. We don't know as whether he left his Chieftanship.

MS SEROKE: But your Chief is Segobodi.

LEKOLOBO SEGOBODI: Yes, it's Segobodi.