Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-15

CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning.  We want to start the proceedings.  For the record it is Monday the 15th of November 1999.  It's a hearing of the Amnesty Committee being held at the Durban Christian Centre.  The Panel is presided over by myself, Denzil Potgieter, I am assisted by Advocates Bosman and Sandi.  We will be starting off with the amnesty application of Zanzile Terrence Dlamini, amnesty reference AM6629/96.  We ask the legal representatives just to put themselves on record.  Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I appear for Zanzile Terrence Dlamini, initial S, surname Panday, P-A-N-D-A-Y.

CHAIRPERSON: And Leader of Evidence.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, Evidence Leader.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Panday is there anything else you want to put on record or are you ready to present the evidence of your client?

MR PANDAY: Ready to present the evidence.

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.  Before the evidence gets led, I would just like to place on record Chair that in this matter the investigative unit have managed to trace a victim W/O Liebenberg who was a policeman.  He is now based in Graaf-Reinet, he is no longer in the police service.  He was duly served with a notice and a communication has been had between him and the investigative unit and as well as our logistics officer.  He was well-advised of his rights to be present here and as well as the facilities that the TRC is prepared to make available for him to be transported to this venue, but he has indicated that he is not interested in the matter, so he won't be coming.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Are you happy in those circumstances that we proceed with the application?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.  In the circumstances I ask that the Committee proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll do that, we'll proceed with the application and we note what you have placed on record.
Yes, Mr Panday, you can proceed.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, could you please state to the Commission where you are currently residing?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: At present I am reside at Rapal No 2, which is in 48 Prince Street, Durban.

MR PANDAY: And what is your current employment status, Mr Dlamini?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: I am employed by the South African Police.

MR PANDAY: And when did you resume employment with the South African Police, Mr Dlamini?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: On the 1st of April 1995.

MR PANDAY: And where are you currently based, Mr Dlamini?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: At the North Beach at the Tourist Support Unit.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it correct that during the year of 1986 you were convicted of having contravened the Terrorism Act?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: And that you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 10 years?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini during the period of 1986, were you a member of any political organisation?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you answer that, in which court were you convicted and sentenced?

MR PANDAY: Pietermaritzburg Supreme Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Thank you Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini during the period of 1986, were you a member of any political organisation?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Yes, that's correct.

MR PANDAY: What is the name of that political organisation?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: The African National Congress.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when did you join the African National Congress?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: I joined that in 1982.

MR PANDAY: And what position did you hold in the African National Congress?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: I was an ordinary member.

MR PANDAY: And was there any specific division of the African National Congress that you were assigned to?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

MR PANDAY: Was there any specific division of the African National Congress that you were assigned to?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: No.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it correct that during 86 you had attacked a mobile police station as well as a school, for which you apply for amnesty today?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: The attack that you launched against the school and the mobile police station, who did you receive the orders from?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: We received our instructions from Ravi, who was the Commander at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name?  Just repeat the name please, Interpreter.

INTERPRETER: Ralph.  I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry Mr Panday.  Carry on.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, does Ralph have a surname as well?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: No I do not remember his surname.

MR PANDAY: What was Ralph's position in the organisation?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: He was our Commander.

MR PANDAY: And I take it that Ralph also belonged to the ANC?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now, at the time when you received the orders from Ralph, where were you based?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: In Swaziland.

MR PANDAY: And ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I missed it, who was based in Swaziland?  The witness or Ralph.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness, the applicant?

MR PANDAY: Yes.  Mr Dlamini, you were based in Swaziland and where was Ralph based?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: He was also in Swaziland at the time.

MR PANDAY: Now, do you know who gave Ralph the instructions to attack the two places?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: No, I do not have knowledge thereof.

MR PANDAY: You mentioned that you were based in Swaziland.  How did you come into South Africa from Swaziland?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Through Ingwavuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you linked to Umkhonto weSizwe, were you part of the military machinery?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive military training.

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is also correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were operating within MK when you got the orders in Swaziland to come and execute here in KwaZulu Natal, here in Durban?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Do you know of any persons that assisted you in coming into the country?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: There were people who assisted.

MR PANDAY: What are their names?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: It was Charles Ndaba.

MR PANDAY: And where is Charles Ndaba now?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: As far as I know, he was murdered by the boers, they threw him into a river somewhere in KwaZulu.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, this attack that was launched against the two places, where did you the bombs from, or the grenades that were specifically used?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: I crossed the border from Swaziland and they were in my possession.

MR PANDAY: And who had given these grenades to you?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: They were given to me by Ralph.

MR PANDAY: Would you happen to know how Ralph was able to obtain such items?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: No, I do not.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, after you, or before we go to that question - were you assisted in the province by any other persons to attack the two places?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Yes, there were.

MR PANDAY: And what are the names of the persons?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Baba Majola and Mdudusi Kala.

MR PANDAY: And do you know the whereabouts of the two persons who assisted you?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Unfortunately they are both deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: What were their positions?  How do they fit into this whole operation?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: I operated with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they also part of MK, or where did they fit in?

ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: Yes, they were MK members whom I had recruited and trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Thank you.  Mr Panday.