Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I know no member of Region 6 admitted any participance in the murder of Lubowski to me.  I don't know because of the secrecy with us, it is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you have already said that you are aware of the fact that Calla Botha and Ferdi Barnard were involved in introducing Donald Aitchison to the CCB, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It came to my knowledge, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, if you could just look at Calla Botha's statement at page 7 of Bundle B.  Maybe you can just read that, just read that whole page to yourself.  I am going to ask you some questions about it.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You can continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Is there anything stated on that page, untrue?

MR MARTINI: Well possibly, sorry Mr Commissioner, I don't want a repeat of what has happened.  Let's go sentence by sentence, let's deal with it, so that we don't have arguments that...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me deal with it ...

CHAIRPERSON: There might be some little word, and then you are going to attack him for, it is probably better to ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Deal with some issues?

CHAIRPERSON: Specifically, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.   Were you aware that Chappie Maree was Donald Aitchison's handler?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I became aware of it, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you aware that an emergency meeting "noodvergadering", was held at the Indaba Hotel or the Rosebank Hotel, because everybody was concerned about the fact that Aitchison had been arrested?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I was not part of such a meeting.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You weren't, were you aware that such a meeting took place?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And it was never mentioned to you afterwards that such a meeting had taken place?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So, as far as you were concerned, nobody was worried about the fact that Aitchison had been arrested?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that your answer, no?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  And the steps taken to steal the register at the Royal Ascot Hotel, the visitors' book, are you aware of that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not have any knowledge about that, other than what I am reading here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you say you cannot dispute what is stated here?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, because this does not implicate me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But it certainly implicates members of Region 6 of the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you saw at the time that the in-house was held concerning the Early Learning Centre, you saw Chappie Maree present a project regarding Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: What happened there was that I heard that Chap Maree, or Chap Maree and the Co-ordinator were embroiled in some conversation and during the discussion I heard that Lubowski's name was mentioned.  That is what I can tell you the fact.
	That is also why I said that the statement, my Section 29 statement in that regard is incorrect.  It is not true if I say that Chappie presented a project, that was not the case.  That they were indeed in some discussion and that I had heard Lubowski's name in the discussion, I do not deny that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Didn't Chappie Maree tell you at the cell meeting at the Rosebank Hotel that you, didn't you see Chappie Maree and Christo Britz as he was then referred to, Mr Wouter Basson, didn't you see them writing something down at that meeting and subsequently Chappie Maree remarked to you that what they had been doing concerned Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, that is not so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Didn't you say to Chappie Maree that you had previously worked with Lubowski, but Basson said to you that that does not matter?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I told this to Basson and he said it did not matter.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because wasn't it so that you had been working on Lubowski and you were upset that Lubowski had now been handed on to Chappie Maree?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, what I had indeed said, what is factually correct is that I told Christo after I heard Lubowski's name was mentioned, I told him that I did the monitoring of Lubowski in South Africa and he then told me "it did not matter" and that was it and I was excused.  I did not speak any more to them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you said that because you had been working on Lubowski and wanted to know why Chappie Maree was now working on Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I was curious, but I never received an answer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, the work that you did on, you and Mr Barnard, did on Lubowski while he was in South Africa, I am just going to put something to you and I hope that the truth is going to emerge in the course of these proceedings.
	I am going to put it to you that when Lubowski came to South Africa, you and Mr Barnard were not merely engaged in monitoring his movements, that you and Mr Barnard in fact intended to assassinate Adv Lubowski while he was in South Africa, but that you did not get the opportunity to do so because the right circumstances never presented themselves?  Your comment?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is untrue.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In fact you and Mr Barnard went to the hotel where he was staying to lay in wait, in an endeavour to assassinate him, but you never succeeded?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is entirely untrue.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you in fact were asked questions about Lubowski during your testimony in the Dr Wouter Basson case?  Do you recall, do you recall telling the Court that you had sent Mr Hardien to Windhoek in connection with the surveillance of Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I never said that.  Are you referring to the current Dr Wouter Basson matter?  Lubowski was mentioned once and the State Advocate asked me to confirm that I was involved with the monitoring of Lubowski in South Africa, that was the only thing that was mentioned about Lubowski.
	That is news to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You never told the Court there that in early August 1989 you sent Hardien to Windhoek to monitor Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Never, never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Unfortunately I do not have the record of those proceedings, I cannot take that any further.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now,  were you aware of a CCB project to assassinate Nico Bessenger in Namibia?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you aware of a CCB project to assassinate Daniel Tjongarero in Namibia?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you aware of a project involving Laurie Nathan?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Also not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Peaches know you by the pseudonym of Theunis?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, at page 194 of Bundle B, Peaches says - Edward Gordon is his proper name, paragraph 17 ...

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Commissioner, is this the Section 29 statement of Peaches?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I assume so.

MR MARTINI: Mr Kahanovitz placing it as "Peaches says", we don't accept that what is in here is correct, but I will allow Mr Kahanovitz to keep questioning, but  to say "Peaches says" or "that it is evidence", we do not accept that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It has been recorded as, in Peaches' statement that ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Mr van Zyl, it has been recorded in Peaches' statement that, in his sworn statement that in February you phoned him from Johannesburg, he says that you then met with him in Cape Town at the Cape Sun Hotel.  He says you gave him a piece of paper containing the names of six people.  He can remember two names, one is Laurie and he spells it as Natitan, and the other is Honga and the surname is Mziliti?  Do you dispute this?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I testified that I gave Peaches names of persons who were SWAPO supporters or SWAPO members, this was for the minibus incident.   Whether these names appeared on that list, I cannot say.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you cannot remember whether you gave him the name Laurie Nathan?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  But it does not sound familiar to me.