Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: In the Eastern Cape?

MR PHOSA: Yes.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, never.

MR PHOSA: Is it possible for junior members to be uncertain as to whether you're number or number two - number two or number three?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I couldn't believe that.

MR PHOSA: You say they couldn't make a mistake like that - genuinely?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot believe that that would be the case because at that stage that we are referring to, I was in command of the unit which investigated matters with regard to trade unions, Coloured suspects, Indian suspects - we gave attention to all those matters and that was generally known.  There couldn't have been confusion as far as I'm concerned.

MR PHOSA: Would your rank in seniority perhaps could have - could no rank have caused that confusion?  The fact that you were senior, were you perhaps the second in seniority?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I was third in seniority.

MR PHOSA: Right.  Now, did you get to know whether Mr Mthimkhulu during detention and interrogation, was responding positively or negatively or just being difficult?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I don't know, I was not informed to this effect whether - Captain du Plessis did have at all to report to me, his position was such that he had to report directly to the head.  He came and mentioned things to me which he felt could possibly also relate to trade union matters or labour matters, those are things he would have mentioned.
	Sometimes he would have come and discussed things with me regarding things he needed advice on or an opinion on, just a second opinion.  Those are the things he would come and approach me with and possible to Colonel Erasmus afterwards, that was the day to day conventions.

MR PHOSA: I get the impression now that you are referring to general practice and you are not talking about Mthimkhulu specifically now?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can tell you that as far as Mthimkhulu is concerned, in his interrogation I had no involvement whatsoever.  In passing perhaps, I think Mr du Plessis on one or two occasions mentioned to me that they were not really progressing with the interrogation and that they were not obtaining the information they were requiring.
	I don't want to state anything here that I cannot say with absolute conviction but I have a feeling in me that during the time that he was interrogated, I never really saw him.  I could perhaps have seen somebody sitting there in an office and not even have realised it was him, but I do not - well, I have the feeling that that was the case at the time regarding him and myself.

MR PHOSA: So that you really would not know in what manner the interrogation went - was carried out?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Do you know Mr Lulama Fizele Owen Bangani?  No, no sorry, my apologies, do you know Mr Bobelo?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If you refer to the ex-policeman, yes I know him.

MR PHOSA: Would he have been entitled to take part in interrogation when Mr Mthimkhulu was being interrogated?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I honestly don't know.

MR PHOSA: No, no, I'm not asking if he did take part, I'm asking you whether he was lawfully entitled as a member of that team - of that branch of the security police, to be present and take part in interrogation - he was entitled?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If he was part of the team that had been appointed to interrogate the person, yes.  If he was not part of the interrogating team, he was not supposed to participate in interrogations.

MR PHOSA: Before my mentioning it here at the hearing yesterday, had you learnt of the fact that Mr Bobelo had made some statement about how Mr Mthimkhulu was interrogated?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I saw a statement of Mr Bobelo's regarding the interrogations.

MR PHOSA: Did you see it before yesterday?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think it was before yesterday, I'm not entirely sure when but my legal counsel showed it to me.

MR PHOSA: Just shown to you but you were not discussing it as such?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, as far as I can remember there was only one reference to me in that statement, where Mr Bobelo said that I was in command of the branch in Port Elizabeth and that is why my legal counsel asked me about this and I said to him that the fact was not correct.  As far as I remember I'm not referred to anywhere else in the statement.  I may be wrong but as far as I can remember I'm not referred to again.

MR PHOSA: No you are not, it is just said that you were in command of the security police, that is why I asked you it first.  Now apart from him, if there was any poisoning of Mr Mthimkhulu by members of the security police during interrogation firstly, you wouldn't have been present and secondly, you wouldn't know about that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: But insofar as the allegation was made that he was poisoned, you as member of that branch would obviously have been affected in a way, wouldn't you - insofar as it could be established that it had happened?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: So, you were not indifferent to the allegation, in other words you also took notice of it and felt it was a serious allegation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: You have heard what was put to Mr Erasmus yesterday about that allegation together also with the allegation of assaults - I mean general improper conduct when he was interrogated, you heard that aspect being put to Mr Erasmus yesterday?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Do you also subscribe to the view that whatever the reason is, the discussion and the conclusion or decision to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu and the other gentlemen - but mostly Mr Mthimkhulu now, does tend to be very close to the stage of the civil action?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the summons to which reference had been made and the date on which the two gentlemen disappeared are close, and that was what was said yesterday if I remember correctly.  I do agree that these two dates are closely spaced.

MR PHOSA: And by the time that you as well took part in the decision to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu, you were already aware of the civil action?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: But I suppose your answer will be: "Look, it just so happens that they are close to each other, our decision had absolutely nothing to do with the threat of the consequences of a civil action"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: But of course you also do concede that even without a successful action against you, the mere process of proceedings of that nature would have a negative effect on the image of the police - security police?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it would reflect in that manner.

MR PHOSA: But it would be worse so if indeed there was a finding in his favour, namely that he had been poisoned?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have unfortunately not followed your question clearly.

MR PHOSA: If it was not only evidence in court against the police but a judgement had been given - a finding of the court was to the effect that indeed he had been poisoned by the security police in the circumstances he alleges, if that had happened, that would have been even more confounding than just an allegation, it would be worst in your view, isn't it?