Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-03

MARY BURTON: You don't know what the argument was about?

MS SIMON: They wanted to go in.  They wanted to go into the yard.

MARY BURTON: ... a court investigation into Michael's death?

MS SIMON: Yes there was.

MARY BURTON: But nothing was done about it.

MS SIMON: Yes, I was taking, to participate in a identification parade, I went to the court in Kimberley, it lasted for a week and a half.

MARY BURTON: ... was prosecuted in the end, is that right?

MS SIMON: No, nobody was prosecuted.

MARY BURTON: Anything else you want to tell us?

MS SIMON: All that I want to say is, is that we read that they found this man that, not guilty.  While in court I was watching this man.  How innocently he looked in court.  His advocate was asking us all kinds of questions but when they acquitted him I realised he might be found innocent here but in heaven he will be guilty.  Michael Julies was a innocent child.  He was just standing by the gate, just like a child, he was inquisitive.  That's all he did.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much Ms Alison and thank you Ms Riekert for coming to tell us today of the loss of these two children, loss to you and loss to your community.  I think it is very brave of you to have come to tell us about this.  Thank you very much.  I have no more questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Denzil Potgieter?

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.  Ms Simon, there is one question which Ms Burton did not understand correctly, I want to ask you again.  Oupa Beukes and Nantes, were they living in Kakamas, were they living in that community in Kakamas?

MS SIMON: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: The policeman who was involved in the shooting, who did the actual shooting, he was Sergeant Byneveldt, is that correct?

MS SIMON: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: And he was the one who was charged in the court in Kimberley?

MS SIMON: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: In which court was that, was it at the supreme court or the magistrate's court?

MS SIMON: It was the supreme court because there was also divorce cases being heard there.  That was the supreme court.

MR POTGIETER: And you say you testified there in court and afterwards you learned that he was acquitted, nothing happened to him.  Can you remember what the court said, what did the judge say, why was he acquitted?

MS SIMON: No I can't remember.

MR POTGIETER: Can you remember the judge's name?

MS SIMON: No I can't.

MR POTGIETER: This Byneveldt, he touched you on your shoulder at a certain stage, he was very near to you.  In which, what condition was he?  Previously Andrew Thomas said that they asked the police to take a blood sample from those people because they thought they were intoxicated.  Did you also see this?  Did you see anything strange about his condition?

MS SIMON: I couldn't say that he was drunk because he, but he behaved very strangely.  How can a normal person just shoot, see what he has done and keep on shooting.  How can a normal person do that?

MR POTGIETER: Go on please.

MS SIMON: That makes one wonder what his condition was.  I can't say that for the truth because I don't know whether he was drunk.

MR POTGIETER: From what you have seen his behaviour was not normal at all.  The people whom he aimed at, the people he was shooting at, what were they doing?  Throwing stones?

MS SIMON: No, they were running away.  While they were running away he was shooting at them.

MR POTGIETER: Do I understand you correctly, first of all he went to the house where the people entered and searched the house?

MS SIMON: No he didn't go into the house like the others, he just stood outside the house.

MR POTGIETER: And the first time he started shooting, was he still standing outside that house?

MS SIMON: Yes he was standing near the road, outside the house and then when he was approaching me and he touched my shoulder and then he told me to run.  It's not far these two houses and then he started shooting.  He was shooting down the street.  He was aiming down the street.  I fell to the ground then but that was still not enough and then he also went, crossed the road into another road and he aimed down that road and kept on shooting.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Ms Simon.

CHAIRPERSON: I am speechless at the moment because if you listen to these stories you can't believe that these things really happened, that people were so humiliated and that their lives were so cheap.  How can one shoot a four year old little girl just like that and in such a way that Desiree was shot?  It seems like a nightmare.  It seems like just a story you can read in a story book, it can't be real, it couldn't really have happened.  It's perhaps easy for us to say to you we feel with you, we have sympathy with you but what does it help?  What happens is that the new government and the parliament have said let us listen to all these stories.  Let us afford people the opportunity to tell their stories so that the whole nation, our whole country can learn what happened in our past and so that we can be determined to make sure that these things never ever happen again in our country.  We can say on behalf of us all we feel very sorry for you and we pray that God can support you, that God can stay in your hearts and souls and take the pain from there.  Nothing can bring your children back but perhaps like the mother said, although this had happened, it was perhaps a contribution to what is happening in our country at present.  At the moment we have a new democratic dispensation, we're living in a new country where everyone appreciates what you are, we appreciate what you have gone through and we are thankful that you have come here today to tell your stories.  We say thank you again.