Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Will the photographers please leave, we are about to leave now?  My attention was drawn this morning to an unfortunate incident, which developed at some stage after the proceedings closed in the afternoon.
	Counsel for Mr Benzien and Mr Benzien were subjected to humiliating treatment by some members of the audience.  Now, one can understand people's anger and annoyance caused by the distressing evidence that they have heard, those were the victims of what has happened, one can understand their anger as well.	But I am sure they will appreciate that we are here as a Committee.  It is in their interest that a fair hearing be given to Mr Benzien and anybody else that appears before this Committee to apply for amnesty and the due respect must be shown to counsel who appear before us, to do the best they can to assist the Committee in the task that we have to face.
	I therefore appeal to those who were directly involved in these proceedings and their friends and associates to try and restrain themselves from any future unpleasant conduct directed at counsel, not necessarily only just counsel in this matter, but counsel generally and Attorneys that appear before us and applicants and witnesses.
	Please try and observe a measure of decorum so that a difficult task that we have to fulfil is done without unnecessary difficulties presented to us by supporters and friends and people amongst the audience.
	Are we ready to proceed now?

MS INTHANGA: Yes, Mr Chairman.  I would like to state for the record that we will be continuing with Mr Gary Kruse's evidence or questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
JEFFERY T. BENZIEN: (still under oath)

MR KRUSE: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Before I start, just on behalf of the group of victims who are appearing, we would like to extent our apology to Adv Cook and Mr Benzien for the behaviour of our supporters and we feel there is a Forum to deal with the issues of the past and it is not necessary for our supporters to act in that manner.
	We also give the assurance that we will speak to them before the end of the day so that that would not occur again.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KRUSE: Jeffery, I just want to start again.  I had a long think last night about things and I was actually very disappointed at the end of the day yesterday, so before I start where I left off, I just want to go back into some other things.
	About two years ago I came to visit you at your office.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: And the nature of my visit was for me to deal with my problems and you itself.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that.

MR KRUSE: The purpose of the visit was to deal with my own problems I had after the torture.  I also stressed to you that I think the important thing is for you to reconcile with the families who you abused.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Kruse, that may have been your intention, but the visit to my office - I remember making coffee and you had been on your cell telephone from approximately the time you walked into our tearoom at the police airwing at Ysterplaat to do with one or other strive amongst the police in Durban, and I am not even sure if you drank your coffee.
	By the time you had had your coffee, you left and I think the words you said to me were, or to the other Colonel that was with you, words similar to that I had assaulted you during your arrest and I think my answer to that was, while we are on this topic, you were in charge of logistics for the West Cape machinery of Umkhonto weSizwe, and in the spirit of reconciliation, have you perhaps produced all the weaponry that had been hidden in the Western Cape?  Your answer to me was I don't know what you are talking about.

MR KRUSE: Any way, I just want to say I came there and I spoke to you about it, maybe I was interrupted by things, but the purpose of my meeting was to come to you and say to you - probably it is easier for me to deal with the things, but I think our families are going to have bigger difficulties and you should come and think about reconciling with that issue.	But if you don't remember it, that is fine, I just wanted to make that point.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On that point Mr Chairman, I was also contacted telephonically towards the end of last week by Mr Kruse, who I know is a Director with the South African Police Services, and I stressed my willingness to meet with the people who I tortured and I really thought that we could clear the air and in an informal manner, discuss our differences and then as I understood it, to go forward in a new South Africa.
	I telephoned Director Kruse on Saturday morning at approximately ten to ten on his cell telephone.  He was not available.  I also said I am at my office, he can phone me at his pleasure and I left my office at three o'clock the afternoon and I had not gotten a return call.  I duly conveyed this to Director Kruse yesterday morning, prior to these conversations carrying on, and I said that he said he was in transport, he could not return my call.
	I accept that.  What I am trying to say is I was willing then to discuss this, also with other members of the then (indistinct) Unit that we worked for.  Until this stage it has not materialised, but I am still willing, more than willing, to meet the gentlemen in an informal manner and convey my apologies to them.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that the essence of my conversation was that I want to discuss with you, besides the fact of us working in one Service, but the fact that I want you to tell the whole truth here?  And that I wanted to get a guarantee from you beforehand that we will not oppose it on the basis that you are going to reveal everything that you know?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That was one of the suggestions that you made.  In actual fact I was surprised to hear here yesterday, that you are opposing my application because I was left to believe by your telephonic conversation that there would be amends and we will - you would not oppose.
	You also said, you did mention the truth and I am here to tell the truth and I have been trying to the best of my ability and recollection of things that happened ten years ago, to give the truth.
	If I may add at this stage, I am not sure of the procedures here, but I would like to know from Mr Kruse as well as the other gentlemen that have given evidence, Mr Tony Yengeni and such, if they had applied to give evidence to this Commission or is it as a result of names that I supplied to the Commission?  Those were the names that I could easily remember in this period and specifically those of the gentlemen who I wanted to apologise to in public?

MR KRUSE: Jerry, I think you had your time to give evidence.  I think I want you to answer my questions now.
	You see the point I am trying to make is that our position firstly on the issue of whether we will support amnesty or not, is still the same.  From the time I spoke to you two years ago to now, it has not changed.
	We are saying, I have said to you on more than one occasion, they are very willing to go on amnesty or support your amnesty application, on the basis that you reveal the truth.  You have said yesterday that you had been used by the Security Branch.
	And I accept that.   But the difficulty I have, you seem to remember very flimsy things like Kentucky and things which I would have thought you had forgotten, but things which stand out more permanently in terms of our interrogation and our experience, you don't seem to remember?
	And I want to know are you not being used again here to be the fore guy for the rest of the Security Branch?  Because that is the impression I am getting.

CHAIRPERSON: The question are you holding back information or trying to protect other members of the Security Branch?