Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Mama Sisulu, I just want to come back to the abduction of the young people from the Methodist manse.
 We have heard already of the involvement of the Crisis Committee.  You have told us yourself that you were the leader of the UDF in that period.  Early on when asked did Dr Asvat ever discuss this with you, you said it was never discussed with you.
 Am I right and I would like you to answer to that of course, that the Rev Chikane would have kept you informed about what was happening in terms of the negotiations or discussions, let me finish Mama, as far as these young people went?  That is my first question, the second question is did you given that there was an almost 27 day period between the young people being taken away and the death of Dr Asvat, did you ever discuss this removal of the young people with him?  
 And the last question is, what - sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe one at a time yes.

DR RANDERA: Okay, let me take my questions one at a time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Frank Chikane discuss this with you, that was the first question?

ALBERTINA SISULU: A person used to come time and again, is my Secretary, that was Morobe Murphy, that is the one who used to ... (intervention)

DR RANDERA: Mama, can I just stop you because from Mr Morobe's own evidence, he had been out of the country in that early period.  So he almost came back at the end of January, so he could not have been coming to speak to you about that.

ALBERTINA SISULU: What I mean is that a person who used to tell me about what is happening about these boys, is Murphy.  Chikane, I don't remember him coming to me.

DR RANDERA: Can I then ask when did you find out yourself about the abduction of these young people?

ALBERTINA SISULU: It is when it came out in the papers about the story of Falati abducting the people from, and in fact because I am near the Methodist church, we heard that the children were taken away from Bishop Verryn.
 We knew that Dr Verryn was helping us with hiding our boys when they were chased by the police, but I didn't know actually what type of children these were, until it was in the paper, they described that these boys were taken, were kidnapped because of the results of what the Doctor said when they were taken to the Doctor.

DR RANDERA: So you do not recall any discussions with Dr Asvat yourself where you shared any discussions with him about the abduction of these young people?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No, like anybody else when you see news in the newspaper, you exchange words, not that we were discussing them to do anything about them.

DR RANDERA: My last question Chairperson, did you become personally involved at any time in trying to release these young people?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson, I've just got one question for you Mrs Sisulu.  Do you find it strange that Dr Asvat didn't discuss with you an alleged disturbed relationship with another senior leader within the ANC, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela because an allegation has been made by many witnesses that their relationship was disturbed, but it is like close as he was to you, he didn't share anything?

ALBERTINA SISULU: You know what is important between me and Dr Asvat, was that our clinic was really a clinic of the people.  We never had time during our working hours of sitting down and discussing anything really and truly.  And he never, if ever, he had gone to see these children, told me.  He never told me and we never discussed this question of these children.

MS MKHIZE: I was not thinking of children, I was just thinking that if a good relationship was disturbed between him and a senior leader within the ANC, was disturbed, wouldn't he have expressed his concern, especially if it was a person who was close to him as well, was he a type of a person who will just keep quiet about it and carry on as though nothing has happened?

ALBERTINA SISULU: He carried on, he never told me anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.  Mrs Sisulu, let me just presage my question by saying, you can assume that I take account of both your struggle credentials and those of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.
 I just want to say I watch the documentary which we have been talking about.  I saw and heard what you said there.  I have no doubt in my mind that what Mr Hanif Vally was quoting to you as emanating from that document, is what I recollect it to have been.  I have watched, and heard your evidence under oath today, and I take account of your replies.
 And as it is our task as we sit here, we form impressions about the witness, about the manner in which a witness gives his or her evidence and I don't want to leave this room and you leaving the witness stand without you having had the benefit of my prima facie impression, and it is the following:
 My initial impression and it can be changed by all other evidence that might come from Mrs Mandela and from any other evidence, but my impression as I sit here is that you are trying your very best to say as little as possible, anything that might implicate Mrs Mandela.  And if that is my initial impression, I want to find what is the reason for this and that is where I want you to get your comments.
 I would like to get your comments on that.  And it is the question that I have been putting to all the leaders of the people with you have been in struggle at that time, can it be if I am right, and I am saying I can change my mind, if I am right that you are trying your very, very best to say as little as possible about your colleague, your comrade, and to say as little that might incriminate her, or implicate her, can it be that (a) it is because she is your comrade, the Mandela's and the Sisulu's come a very long way, both from the male side and from the female side.  And is it because for that very reason you wouldn't like to be the one who should be identified in South African history as having dared to speak about your comrade in terms that seem to suggest that she was involved in something like the death of Dr Asvat?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Do you want me to answer that?

MR NTSEBEZA: I would like to get your comment.