Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I don't recall that.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you agree with me that if it was your purpose to determine whether or not there were still people inside the hall, by nature of the situation you would have entered the hall or you would have stood at the door to see if there was anyone inside and possibly you would also have searched the boardroom to see if there were people there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, the first time that I went to check there was no-one there and that was before I met you at the door.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: The second time people started coming out and driving off, then I went again and I said to Mr van Zyl that the people were leaving and they could see it for themselves as well.

MR WILLIAMS: So where was the car parked at that stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Behind in the parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: But can you recall that when you and I spoke you went from there out the front door to the Springbok side street of the premises, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I walked around.

MR WILLIAMS: I beg your pardon?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I walked around the building.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but remember I saw you leaving through the front door of the building to the Springbok Street side, can you recall that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I know I didn't walk down Springbok Street.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, you know the building, you know the place, you visited there quite often, I also know the place.  If you wanted to wait for people, let's say for example you wanted to wait outside, let's just use this as an example, you were waiting for a girl to come out, where would you wait, in front of the building or at the back of the building?  Remember that we always used the front of the building to enter and exit.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR WILLIAMS: If hypothetically speaking, you would be waiting for a girl or for anybody who was inside the building and you were waiting for this person to come out, would you have waited on the Springbok Street side of the building which was the most general route that we used, or would you wait at the back?

ISGAK HARDIEN: If I was waiting for somebody and I knew that they would come out the gate, I would wait at the gate.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but what side would that be on, the front or the back?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The front.

MR WILLIAMS: And I'm assuming that you say this because you know that we always use the front of the building, even you yourself used the front of the building most of the time, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I wouldn't say that because one wouldn't always enter via the front gate, sometimes they locked that gate and you'd have to use the side gate.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but we're referring to normal hours when you knew that there would be people in the building.  Isn't is so that the most generally used side was the front side of the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that's correct, they used that side every day and the back part as well.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ever see me go through the back gate, because I put it to you that when I used that hall, for ninety percent of the time I must have used the front side, and you who knew the place and knew the community would have known that, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it not logical then that if you waited for people to leave the building that you will in front of the building because you know that's the general route the people used to leave the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: But Mr Williams, I told Mr van Zyl that the people parked their cars at the back.  They will leave there, they will not walk right round the building, they will leave at the back gate.

MR WILLIAMS: We're not talking about the cars now Gakkie.  Can you recall what my first car was?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I tell you it was white Datsun with red and blue stripes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall if you had a Datsun, I know that you're got a very smart car now.

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: I do not know if you can call it smart, but anyway, my first car was a Datsun.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams if you say so, it is so, I cannot recall though.

MR WILLIAMS: And my second car was a Ford, which I still have.  Is that true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not even know that you had a Ford.

MR WILLIAMS: Well apart from the other car, I've got no other vehicles.  Do you know if I possessed any other vehicles?  And the first time when I bought a car was in the beginning of 1992, before that I could not drive a car.  Do you can agree with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I know Mr Williams that while you were university you did not have a car.

MR WILLIAMS: Did I have a car or not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not think you had a car.

MR WILLIAMS: Well yes, that's true.  May I should just correct this, the last year of my year at university I bought a car, that was in '92.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Well I do not know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words in 1989 I did not have a car.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot tell you.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I will put it to you as a fact, will you be able to dispute that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot if you say that you bought a car in 1930, I can't deny or dispute it because you bought it in 1930.

MR WILLIAMS: Well Gakkie, I will put it to you that at the stage when the bomb exploded, in that period of time there were only three members who were associated with the youth movement, who had vehicles and who were privileged enough to have vehicles.  That was Oesman, Bruce and Chris Ferndale.  Can you recall that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I know Oesman had a car, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes and can you recall that Bruce had a car?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: And did Chris Ferndale have a car?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: So you can only recall one car which the Kewtown Youth Movement had at that stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Well I knew Oesman didn't have a car, it was his father's car that was driving around and I knew that he used the car and I can give you the car's name because I drove in it a lot of times.

MR WILLIAMS: Well the fact of the matter is that at the time of the bomb, according to your knowledge, there was only person of the Kewtown Youth Movement who had a car, or possessed a car, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, Oesman had a car, but I cannot tell you or say to you if he was there with his car or not.

MR WILLIAMS: Well maybe you do not know this fact, but I will put it to you that at a certain stage when the bomb exploded, Chris Ferndale was not actively involved in the organisation and he also did not attend that meeting that evening.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I will not know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: You did not see him there, did you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I tell you now I do not know who was inside at that stage.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but I will put it to you as a fact that that evening you did not see Chris Ferndale there because he was not there.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I saw Mr Williams there, I did not see anybody else there who I knew.

MR LAX: Are you sure about that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Dead sure, yes.  I saw Mr Williams and nobody else inside or in the meeting, because I was not in the meeting.  So how can I see people in the meeting if I did not attend the meeting?  Or did I misunderstand him?

MR LAX: Did you see anyone else coming out of the building that you recognised?  Who you identified?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I was sitting in the vehicle, in the car, and people left the building and cars pulled away, they drove away.

MR LAX: Did you identify the people who were leaving, by name?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not as far as I can recall.  He can ask me the question again and maybe I will recall it then.