Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR LAX: Just to clarify, is Noord roughly the street one can see on the right of the plan, on sketch plan 4?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: Noord runs parallel to De Villiers and intersects with King George on the right-hand side of the sketch plan.  At page 174 of the report, this is 174 of bundle "B", it's typed page 14 of the report, under the heading "Trefpunt BN3", you will recall that that relates to the shotgun marks on sketch plan 4.  The following is said, it's photo 21, it says there - I beg your pardon photos 22, 23 and 24.  The report says,
"Die beskadigingsmerke is veroorsaak deur agt haelkorrels wat die onderkant van die balkon aan die noorde kant van Baronie getref het.  Die skoot is skuins opwaarts in 'n oostelike rigting soos op die sketsplan aangedui, gevuur.  Die groote van die haelkorrels kan "SG" of "LG" wees."
Again no indication that these weren't fired on the day of the shooting.  If the Committee would just turn to page 7 of bundle "D", you will see an annexure there, Annexure "A", which shows the different sizes of ammunition, shotgun ammunition.  SSG was fired by the Shell House security guards on the day, and you will see that there are 16 shots per cartridge in an SSG cartridge.  SG has got 10 pellets, and LG has got 7 pellets, do you see that Chairperson?  Now the report indicates that there were 8 shotgun pellets on the underside - or shotgun marks on the underside of the balcony in De Villiers Street, and the experts said that those were either SG or LG pellets.  And we make the point in paragraph 4.2 that if they were LG pellets, then at least two shots must have been fired.  If they were SG pellets, then two of the pellets didn't strike the building and landed up somewhere else.
	If I could then move to 4.3.  4.3 deals with shots fired in the direction of the marchers, not in the direction of Shell House and we say there that those shots include shots fired from AK47s and handguns.  We know that the Shell House security guards fired two AK47s, the one was fired by Mr Molefe, the other one was fired by Mr Khumalo.  According to Superintendent Du Plessis, at least one of the shots fired from an AK47 could have been fired up King George Street from a position above Nandos.  Now, I don't know if the Committee is aware of where Nandos is, we will hand in a photograph, perhaps I should hand it in now.  These are colour copies of the photographs, they're quite expensive and our attorneys couldn't make more copies, we have five copies, can I hand them up to the Committee.  Chairperson, this will have to be given an Exhibit number in due course, but this photograph was taken in King George Street, looking south in King George Street between Plein Street and De Villiers Street looking south, and we're looking at the northern most point of Small Street Mall.  Just to the right of Nandos is the entrance to the Small Street Mall.  What Superintendent Du Plessis said was that the shot - a shot could have been fired from one of the flats above Nandos - I'm sorry, Nandos is shown, I don't know Chairperson if you can see Nandos, that red canopy has the name Nandos written across.

MR LAX: Is that the same point that appears on sketch plan 2 on page 183, it's marked Nandos and next to it is Whisky Music?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's the point.

MR LAX: So that's - that way and that's looking towards that point down King George Street?

MR BERGER: This photograph is taken approximately where on sketch plan 2 the figure C appears.  The reference - all the references to Superintendent Du Plessis's evidence that are made in this memorandum have been copied and Chairperson, you will find the evidence of Superintendent Du Plessis starting at page 31 of the memorandum.  What we've done is, we've copied all the relevant pages.  At page 33 of the bundle Superintendent Du Plessis was being questioned by his counsel and in the middle of the page line 14 the following is recorded,
"Foto 9 van u album Y2 is weer een van die onbevestigde gevalle?"
	"Dit is korrek Edele."
	"Kan u se wat u daar uitbeeld op foto 9, wat die doel daarvan was."
	"U Edele, dit is 'n gat in 'n soliede sementblok."
What he was referring to there was point C on sketch plan 2, that is a cement block in the middle of the road and there was hole caused by a shot fired into that cement block.  A photograph of that appears as photograph no 9 in Superintendent Du Plessis's Exhibit "Y2".  And then over the page at page 34, line 3, Du Plessis is asked,
"Het u na die ander kant van daardie sementblok gekyk om te sien of u merke van daardie kant of gekry het?"
and the answer,
"Daar was geen merke gewees nie.  U Edele, in een van my verslae as ek dit net miskien kan byvoeg, het ek hierdie skoot ook nie uitgesluit dat dit kon gevuur gewees het uit die suidelike woonstel gedeeltes van Nandos, want ek is pertinent daaroor gevra omdat daar bewering was dat mense geskiet het vanuit daardie gebou.  Bokant Nandos, daardie woonstelblok en hierdie blok is reguit in lyn en hierdie skoot kon daarvandaan ook gevuur gewees het, maar hy kon nog - die aanslagrigting is nog in 'n suidelike rigting."
He's actually meaning a northern - it's a northerly direction from the south to the north.  
	That is important, Chairperson, that piece of evidence from Superintendent Du Plessis, that it is quite possible that an AK47 - he identifies this as an AK47 shot, that an AK47 shot could have been fired from that position above Nandos, down into King George Street and the shot that he knows of is the one that hit the cement block.  In other words, that somebody was shooting an AK47 from King George Street in that direction - from above Nandos in that direction.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I seem to see two blocks of flats on either side of Nandos.  Is there - are there flats above Nandos?

MR BERGER: Judge Ngcobo, the evidence didn't go further that the evidence which I have just read out to you as far as Nandos is concerned.  It would appear as though he's referring to the flats just to the, as we're looking at it, just to the right of Nandos.
	So those are the AK47s that are referred to in our paragraph 4.3 of the memorandum.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: That's correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the glass enclosed portion that is immediately above the red canopy?

MR BERGER: No, it doesn't appear to be, but it could equally be the flats to the left of that, he wasn't specific.  All he said was that above Nandos there is that block of flats, and this cement block, he's saying, is directly in line he says with that block of flats, and this shot could also have been fired from there, he says.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: So the shots which were fired in the direction of the marchers with an AK47 could be the two shotguns - the two AK47s fired, one by Mr Khumalo, one by Mr Molefe.  The AK47 above Nandos, if I could describe it as such, as well as the AK47 which we see on sketch plan 4, shots 17 and 18, also fired - that was fired both in the direction of the marchers and in the direction of Shell House, the marchers being between the shooter and Shell House.
	4.4, the numerous shots fired from Shell House with AK47s were fired into the air and well over the heads of the marchers, that is indicated on ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Berger, shall we give this document a number of some kind so that we can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's called "D", oh the photograph?

JUDGE NGCOBO: The photograph, shall we give this a number of some sort.

MR LAX: Can we make it page 272 of bundle "B" ...(inaudible) keep it ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Not bundle "D" because it ...(intervention)
...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.