Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

MR SMUTS: Did you have any interest in seeking to stay informed of the investigations into the shooting of Mr Hani and the response of the nation to that shooting?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Please repeat your question sir.

MR SMUTS: After you heard of the death of Mr Hani, did you show any interest in trying to obtain any information regarding the investigations that had been launched into the shooting and further, did you show any interest in seeking to establish what the response was across the nation to that shooting?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I didn't think about that, because I was feeling very bad at that time.

MR SMUTS: Were you not interested in finding out whether the killers had been arrested and could be brought to justice?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't know that I was interested at that time, but what I know is that I was feeling very bad at that time.  I wouldn't notice whether I was interested in that or not.  I was concentrating on my emotional involvement.

MR SMUTS: So, did you not watch the news on television or listened to the radio news or read newspapers after that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: What are you referring to, about what?

MR SMUTS: This amnesty application deals with a set of circumstances, and circumstances that you have illustrated are that your actions were a response to the killing of Mr Chris Hani.
	I am asking you whether you sought to follow on television news, on radio or in the newspapers, news coverage of that event in the days following that event?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Before this incident, did you listen to an address by Mr Mandela calling for calm and restraint and not taking the law into your own hands, and so forth?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I didn't hear that before the attack.

MR SMUTS: When did you become party to a decision to take any form of action in consequence of the shooting of Mr Hani?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We spoke about this, myself and Guleni, because we were working together, but we became involved in the decision when the comrades from Flagstaff arrived.

MR SMUTS: And formulate as precisely as you can, what that decision was in which you became involved.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It was a decision that as there were suspicions and as we saw certain things, we should retaliate in Port St Johns, especially on the coast, not in town.

MR SMUTS: Did you make a decision as to the manner in which you were going to retaliate?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, we did.

MR SMUTS: What was the nature of the decision regarding the manner in which you were to retaliate?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We decided to go and attack this coastal area, because at that time, we suspected that it was a base of the whites.
	We decided that it was not the only place that we were going to attack, we would continue attacking even though at that particular time, we didn't discuss where to go after attacking that area.  But we have made a decision that we would start at that area, and then continue afterwards.

MR SMUTS: You are obliged to make a full disclosure if you are to be granted amnesty Mr Hermans.  You say you decided to attack the coastal area, was it no more precise than that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: As I have already said that in Costello's house, these cars used to come there and we found out about Costello and that he would go to this coastal areas and as I have already said, that in those meetings that were being held in Costello's house, there were cars that we suspected that they were the ones surrounding the hall when we had a meeting.
	Those cars, there were 4 x 4 and Toyota's amongst the cars, we then went to that coastal area.

MR SMUTS: One individual in an area whom you had identified as a potential member of the AWB, was Mr Costello, is that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Where?

MR SMUTS: What area are you talking about Mr Hermans?  Ii am talking about Port St Johns.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: But the one person that you had identified as a suspected member of the AWB, you resolved not to attack?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.  Please explain your question, it is not that we would not attack him, but we would not attack in town because there were police in town.  If he was on those coastal areas, we would attack him because he was the one we wanted, but because there were police in town, we couldn't attack in town.

MR SMUTS: But you were happy to attack people who happened by whatever means, to find themselves in a geographic area where at some or another time, Mr Costello held meetings, the nature of which you had no direct information about?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I don't understand your question, it is not clear.

MR SMUTS: Well, I will ask it until it is clear Mr Hermans.  Mr Costello was the man that you had identified as the suspected AWB member?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Correct.

MR SMUTS: Because he was in the town, you were not going to risk your own safety by attacking this man whom you suspected of being an ANC member?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Correct.

MR SMUTS: You were happy to attack people who found themselves in a specific geographic area, because of the fact that at some or other stage Mr Costello had held meetings in that area?  Is that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: You had no direct information of the nature of those meetings that he had held there?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct, but there were suspicions about those meetings.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did he have these meetings?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Sometimes in his house and other whites would come in his house, and sometimes as I have already said, he would go to the coastal areas in Gomolo.

ADV DE JAGER: You see the coastal area is quite an area, but if you've got a meeting and somebody saw him having a meeting, I suppose they would be able to say he had a meeting in that house on the coastal area?  Did they inform you which house he had a meeting in, what month he had the meeting, how many meetings did he have?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, they didn't tell us.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Smuts, the people who were conveying this information to you about meetings, did they tell you what issues were being discussed at these meetings?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, they wouldn't know what was discussed because they would not attend the meeting.

ADV SANDI: Was there some sort of unwritten rule that Mr Costello could not hold a meeting at his house or at any place in that area?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No.

ADV SANDI: What was wrong about Mr Costello holding meetings if he did in fact hold such meetings with such people?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: As I have already said here, the workers said that Mr Costello said he had nothing to do with the Workers' Union and the ANC, he was a member of the AWB.  Meetings were held, such meetings were held and that made us not to trust him.
	That brought suspicions to us that those meetings were not good meetings, or there was something wrong.

MR SMUTS: You don't know, do you, Mr Hermans, whether those meetings discussed religion or good wine?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I don't know.

MR SMUTS: You don't know what the contents were of boxes that were carried into the home of Mr Costello?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I don't know.

MR SMUTS: You don't know that he was a member of the AWB, you suspect that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We suspected that because we heard the rumours, and when I saw the white man coming from his house when we were on our way to Durban, then our suspicions were more, we had more suspicion.

ADV SANDI: I think Mr Smuts, he said the workers reported that Mr Costello had told them that he was a member of the AWB, so I think it was something more than a suspicion.