Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: ... you're saying Dr Asvat said he was afraid of Winnie.

JOHN MORGAN: I've never said that.

MS SIGAT: (?):   Could you give us a page reference for that, please?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, let me correct that.  I think I misread the sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Morgan, I'll say that once more to you, please, answer the questions, don't make any jokes out of the situation.

JOHN MORGAN: He said it's like that, now he realises that he's made a mistake.  He wanted me to agree to something that I didn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just wait for him to ask you a question, and answer that question, please.

MR SEMENYA: Now something which is very ironic you say is when the boys were brought back from the manse you wanted to sit on a chair and Richard said you shouldn't and you said, but Winnie say is young.  Did I hear you say that?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I did.

MR SEMENYA: And at the same breath you say you are prepared even to lie to a high court because of your respect for her.

JOHN MORGAN: No.

MR SEMENYA: ... are those approaches.

JOHN MORGAN: I never said I was scared of Winnie.  If I respected her I would have given her the chair where she wanted to sit.

MR SEMENYA: So you lied because of your respect for her, amongst others?

JOHN MORGAN: No, that's not true.

MR SEMENYA: The newspaper article says, "I lied to protect her", it's not correct, alright?

JOHN MORGAN: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: ... find out how much more questioning you still have.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I think in large measure this witness has made a very profound statement, but within the limitations of the times, I do not even anticipate I'll get to the bottom of this witness through cross-examination.  Nevertheless I would request that perhaps if, after I have a look at the documents relating to the amnesty by Richardson, I may request that the witness be brought back to deal with that pertinent aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

MR SEMENYA: I will halt therefore my cross-examination at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, I will ask her legal representative whether she has anything that she wants to say.

JOHN MORGAN: May I please ask a question?  With regard to what Semenya has said, when Semenya says that what I'm saying will get me in trouble, what does he mean by that? What's going to get me into trouble?  Tell me, Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: ... show that I had made any threats?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Sigat or

MS HASSEN: Mr Chair, I just have one question for - I just have been told by my learned colleague that he would like to ask questions before I continue, and another learned colleague has interjected at this, so I don't know if we should continue with this, if Mr Chair would allow this.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought, I mean, you were the ones who were going to be in response as it were to the cross-examination, isn't that what you people do?  Or do you want to hear what the other questions are?

MS HASSEN: Yes, I would prefer that to be.

MR KADES: Mr Chairperson, my name is Norman Kades. I appear on behalf of the Asvat family, both the widow and the brother of the deceased, Dr Abu-Baker Asvat.  Mr Morgan, did you know the location of Dr Asvat, the late Dr Asvat's surgery?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I did.

MR KADES: And I take it from what you've told us already that you knew the late Dr Asvat.

JOHN MORGAN: That is correct.

MR KADES: And was it your custom on occasion to take members of the Football Club and other people on the instructions of Mrs Mandela to Dr Asvat's surgery for treatment.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is correct?

MR KADES: Did you ever take Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat's surgery accompanied by Mrs Mandela?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: And was that on the 30th of December of 1988?  Did you take... (intervention)

JOHN MORGAN: I'm not sure about the date.

MR KADES: Did you take Mrs Mandela and Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat's surgery on more than one occasion?

JOHN MORGAN: That is correct.

MR KADES: Can you recall on how many occasions you took them together to Dr Asvat?

JOHN MORGAN: Could have been twice or thrice.  We were in Rockville where he had his surgery first, and the second time we went to a place next to the garage but in Rockville as well, and I don't remember the third time, I'm not quite clear.

MR KADES: The occasions on which you took Katiza Cebekhulu and Mrs Mandela to Dr Asvat, were they one day after the other or was there a period between them ... (intervention)?

JOHN MORGAN: No, it was on different occasions.

MR KADES: ... was a period of time between the visits? Days, weeks, months?

JOHN MORGAN: The first time I think it was a few days, but the second time I think a month or two lapsed.

MR KADES: ... visit on the 30th of December of 1988, which according to the records of the late Dr Asvat indicates that he examined Katiza Cebekhulu, you cannot tell us whether that date, the 30th of December '88, was the first or second occasion?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't remember.

MR KADES: Did you go into the surgery with, did you  accompany Mrs Mandela and Katiza?

JOHN MORGAN: No, they went in, the two of them remained in the car.

MR KADES: And when they returned from having seen Dr Asvat, do you recall on any of those occasions whether there were any discussions in the motor car concerning that visit to Dr Asvat?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't remember anything.

MR KADES: ... recall the day on which Dr Asvat was murdered, do you remember hearing that he had been murdered that day?

JOHN MORGAN: No, that day I hadn't gone to Dr Asvat's surgery, but I heard at a later stage that he had been murdered, and I went to his funeral, because he's of the Muslim faith and I'm also of the Muslim faith. We went together with Winnie.

MR KADES: Well, he was buried the very next day, wasn't he?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: The 27th of January 1989, and he was buried the following day?

JOHN MORGAN: I think that is correct.

MR KADES: Did you accompany anybody or drive anybody, take anybody to Dr Asvat's surgery on the day on which he was killed, the day before the funeral?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I never took anyone there.

MR KADES: When do you recall when the last occasion was that you saw Dr Asvat?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't remember.

MR KADES: Did you not take, drive Mrs Mandela to Dr Asvat's surgery on the afternoon of the day on which he was killed?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't remember such an occasion.

MR KADES: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in fact went to Dr Asvat's surgery that day, the day of ... (intervention)

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't recall that.

MR KADES: Were you still employed by Mrs Madikizela Mandela on the 27th of January ... ?[intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I was still employed.

MR KADES: Did you - you have told us that in your presence Dr Asvat said that Stompie should be taken to hospital.

JOHN MORGAN: Correct, correct, yes.

MR KADES: Where were you and where was Dr Asvat ... (intervention)

JOHN MORGAN: We were in Diepkloof, all of us.

MR KADES: Were you outside the house, inside the house?

JOHN MORGAN: We were inside the house.  I was making coffee.

MR KADES: Yes, and was this in the morning, the afternoon, when was it?

JOHN MORGAN: I think it was in the afternoon, late afternoon.

MR KADES: Was it the day after you had seen Stompie being beaten and the other boys being beaten?  Or was it a few days thereafter?

JOHN MORGAN: I think it was thereabouts, I don't recall quite well.

MR KADES: ... when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela refused to have Stompie taken to the hospital?

JOHN MORGAN: Nothing happened, she refused to take Stompie to the hospital.

MR KADES: ... what does he then do?  Did he leave, did he stay?

JOHN MORGAN: I left Dr Asvat there with Mrs Mandela in Mrs Mandela's house, Diepkloof.