Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, just for clarity because of the sound.  They went to the house of Zukile Biko after retreating and then he left the others there.  He went to Tamsanqa Duma.
	Now Mr Biko, you know that somebody died as a result of that incident, though you were found not guilty in court.  What now after the incident, sitting in retrospect thinking about the whole thing, what do you say?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I sympathise with the victims but I couldn't do otherwise because I was involved in the struggle and both sides were fighting and even my life was in  danger.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman, at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.
	Mr Biko, is it correct that you dearly want to get out of prison?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: That is in the hands of the Committee, but I'm here to tell and I'm here to ask for amnesty for something that I did to Mr Franciscato because I killed him and I took his firearms.

MR MAPOMA: And you want to get out of prison?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And at some point you did escape from prison after you were convicted?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I did that, I did escape.

MR MAPOMA: And you left your operatives in prison?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you escaped from prison you knew that all other political prisoners are still remaining in jail?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct, I knew that they were there but I was not running away forever but I knew that I would go back in December.  I just wanted to solve my problems that the prison did not - I wanted to solve my problems, those that the prison authorities failed to solve for me, so I decided to go there myself and solve my problems and then I came back.
	On my way back I met with a policeman on the way and the policeman arrested me and I was charged for a escape and I was further charge for three years for escape, therefore my sentence now is 10 years.

MR MAPOMA: When did you escape from prison?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: That was last year in July.

MR MAPOMA: When did you make your amnesty application to the Amnesty Committee?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: In 1996.

MR MAPOMA: So when you escaped from prison you had already had your application for amnesty with the Amnesty Committee, is that right?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Will you please repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: When you escaped from prison you had already filed your amnesty application to the Amnesty Committee?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: With a view to getting yourself, amongst other things, released from prison, is it so?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you not trust that you could be granted amnesty and you get released without you having to escape from prison?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I trusted the process but I was pressurised and the prison authorities failed to solve my problems.  I contacted with the social workers to organise the meeting with my parents but they failed.  I could relax and therefore I decided to go and solve my problems.
	I knew that I would come back in December.  I was arrested on my way to the prison, to hand myself, to surrender and continue with my sentence but now the policeman arrested me and I was further charged for escape and they added three years on top of that seven years and my sentence became 10 years.

MR MAPOMA: Now are you telling the Committee that you left prison with a view to coming back to prison again yourself, at your own volition?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.  That is correct, to such an extent that I told my co-accused that I would come back in December to complete my sentence because I would be released in the year 2000.  That was my date of release on parole.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairperson, just bear with me please.

ADV SANDI: Why were you deployed in Fort Beaufort when you came back from the Transkei?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: The reason for me to go there, I went there to carry out operations.

ADV SANDI: I notice that you say you were deployed back in Fort Beaufort where there was a political conflict between the PAC and the ANC, what was this conflict about?  Where you supposed to be playing any role in the resolution of this conflict?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I did not go there for the conflict but I went there to attack the Boers at Fort Beaufort.  I found the place corrupt as it was at the time.  It was out of control.  The PAC and ANC people were fighting.

ADV SANDI: Did you take part in that conflict?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, I did not take any part.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you deployed there for, to do what?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I was deployed there to carry on mission to attack Boers.

CHAIRPERSON: And just allow the conflict between the ANC and the PAC to continue?  That was none of your business?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I was working per order.  The instruction that I received was not to go there and attack the ANC members.  My instruction was to hit the Boers, therefore if I could deviate that, that would mean that I was actually against the rules of APLA if I can go there and do my own thing.  That is why I did not get involved in the township but instead I did what I was there to do.

ADV SANDI: I suppose in this conflict PAC people and ANC people were attacking each other, not so?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct, they were fighting.

ADV SANDI: There was also a danger that you could also be attacked as a member of the PAC, not so?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: But this conflict was none of your business even though you were also in danger of being attacked?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: If it was necessary for me to go and solve or protect my members, if that was the order, I would do that but unfortunately that type of an order was not issued.  I was not instructed to be part of the people who were attacking each other.  I was not doing my own thing there.

ADV SANDI: Is not one of your functions, is not one of your duties as a soldier of APLA to protect members of your organisation?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is my duty but if I'm instructed to do so.

ADV SANDI: Were any people killed in the course of this conflict between the two organisations?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: According to what I heard, some people died there between PAC and ANC.

ADV SANDI: Where did you hear that some people had been killed?  Did you not stay there?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I heard that from other members of PAC.  Yes, I was staying there.  I got that information from other members of PAC but I was in prison when the other people died because I was, I have ...[indistinct] after this incident at Mr Franciscato's house.

MR MAPOMA: You say you were trained in Transkei, where in Transkei?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: In Lusikisiki.

MR MAPOMA: Now where is Tamsanqa Duma, is he at this hearing?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: The decision to attack Franciscato, would I be correct to think that your motive said it was your decision, you identified him as the target?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Are you asking - yes, you are telling the truth if you say I am the one who saw him as the target.  That was my decision because I went there to reconnoitre the place and I saw him as a target.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave Duma the information that there's guns to be obtained at that house, you?  So that he could consider it and give you the ...[intervention]

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, because he gave me three days to reconnoitre the place and I did so and I thought about a white man where my mother used to work and my mother had some firearms - the ...[intervention]