Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome everybody.  Today we have two hearings that have been placed on the roll.  The hearing that we'll be commencing with concerns the applications of Mr Pieter Breytenbach and Mr de Wet Johan Strydom.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start I'd like to introduce the Committee.  On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he is an attorney and comes from Port Elizabeth, and member of the Amnesty Committee.  On my left is Mr Sibanyoni, he is also an attorney, he comes from Pretoria.  I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge from the High Court from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division there.  	I'd request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases you, Honourable Chairperson, Members of the Committee.  H J Prinsloo, I appear on behalf of the first applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo.
MR PRINSLOO

MS VAN DER WALT: I am Louisa van der Walt, appearing on behalf of Mr de Wet Strydom.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Gordon Taka.  I'm practising locally and representing the victims in the second hearing in the application of ...(indistinct) and others.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not involved in this matter?

MR TAKA: ...(inaudible)

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I'm Zuko Mapoma the Evidence Leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  When we met earlier this morning, Mr Prinsloo you indicated that the hearing will commence with the evidence of Mr Strydom.

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: It's over to you, Mr Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: I call the second applicant, Mr Strydom, but before he gives his evidence there are certain aspects with regards to his application which if you give me leave, I would like to amend.

CHAIRPERSON: I see that he says that he was born in 1996.

MS VAN DER WALT: It's a bit young.  The first reference is on page 36, it should be '64.  Then on page 43 it is again at the birth date but there the birth date is 19, it should be 29 March.  The year is correct there.  Then on page 49 there is a General's name which should not be there, it's on page 47 paragraph 16.  In the middle you'll find five Generals and then General Oelofse's name should be deleted.  The applicant will explain this to the Committee.  On the same page, paragraph 16, the sixth line from the bottom where it's written: General Oelofse should be General Etsebeth.  On page 53, paragraph 27, the fifth line in the paragraph it the same, General Oelofse should be replaced with General Etsebeth.  Thank you, that is  all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any objection?

MR PRINSLOO: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any objections?

MR MAPOMA: I have no objections, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll then effect those amendments as stated by yourself, Ms van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you very much.
	Mr Strydom, you applied ...(intervention)

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Your amnesty application is contained in this volume from page 36 up to 70.  You apply for amnesty for certain offences for which you were charged and it was postponed sine die pending on the amnesty application.

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the charges for which you're applying for amnesty appears on page 38.

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it's also the same charges as we find them in the bundle from page 71 onwards.

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Strydom, you gave your full particulars in your amnesty application.  You were a member of the Conservative Party as well as the AWB, is
that correct?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you join the AWB?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: In 1982.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were also a member of the South African Police, is that correct?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: From when?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Also from 1982.

MS VAN DER WALT: And later you left the police service.

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: 1987.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well.  During your service in the police force, did you do any border service?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: How long were you at the border for?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: I was there several times, three months at a time.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also completed several courses in your career as a police officer, is that correct?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: During 1992 - if I can refer you Chairperson to page 64 of the volume, it starts at the bottom - sorry, 45, the bottom of 45, I apologise.  	During 1992 you presented courses of the AWB and you attending them.

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the purpose of these courses?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Chairperson, the purpose of these courses were to train people in the use of explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Chairperson, the instructions we received was to present these courses so that the election would not happen and then also to create chaos all over the country.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the AWB had several Generals who were involved in these courses and training, is that correct?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the leader of the AWB, Eugene Terre'blanche, did he have any knowledge with regards to the training the AWB people underwent?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Yes, he knew about it all the time.  He knew about the courses and the training which took place.

MS VAN DER WALT: You've mentioned several names in this paragraph,  In paragraph 9 on page 46 you mention several Generals there.  They had a specific name, what were their ranks as Generals?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: They were the fighting Generals of the AWB, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why were they called like that?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: They were fighting Generals because in each district or area they gave the main instructions which would lead to war.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the AWB prepared them for war?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also said they did not want the election to take place, why were they opposed to this election?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Chairperson, according to the AWB it would have been a majority election and it would have moved on towards a communist party and the AWB didn't approve of that.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was Eugene Terre'blanche's viewpoint during all the meetings which you attended, what did he say with regards to the elections?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That an election should not take place, Chairperson and no negotiations would take place either with the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did he say, did he say that there'd be negotiations in any manner or what was his point of view?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Chairperson, most of the meetings I attended he said that only through a barrel of a gun there would be negotiations with any communistic party, including the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you think, what did you think of these meetings and what was told to you?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: At that stage I believed firmly that it was indeed correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you also prepare yourself for the war?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Yes, I did indeed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well.  During 1992 on Jakob Morkel's farm in Khuruman you attended the camp of the AWB, is that correct?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this camp, did it have any influence on you?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, there I really saw that this country was heading towards a majority election and everything must be done to stop that, under the instructions of the AWB.