Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Makoe?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, thank you, just a few questions.
	Mr Makoe, exactly what were the instructions you were given by Mr Ace Chanyela(?)?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: The order that I was given by the commander, Chanyela, was that I should go and remove from the community an enemy.  We had just arrived in that township and I did not hesitate to go and execute that order.  I knew that this person was dangerous to the community.  This person could have acted as an informer.  Now the situation was very tense ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I stop you?  Confine your responses to questions put to you.  The question was what were the instructions given to you by Mr Chanyela.  Just confine your response to what has been put to you.  You are now going on to elaborate about why this person was targeted by Mr Chanyela, and information which no ground has been given, on which you can now be in a position to give information which is within your, which would reside with you.
	Now you acted on instructions or on orders from Mr Chanyela, is it not so?  Would it have mattered whether this person was dangerous or not?  That is not in any case the question which is being put to you.
	You may proceed, Ms Thabete, if you want to pursue the evidence that hinged on the other aspect of your question, that was volunteered by the applicant without any question being put to him by you.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Mr Makoe, you're saying that Mr Chanyela told you to eliminate the enemy, that's the instruction he gave you, did he give you a specific instruction to kill Ms Feni?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Did he that is correct.

MS THABETE: Did he give any reasons why she should be killed?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: He did not give me the reason.  What he said was that Annah Feni is back in the township and he gave me an order to eliminate her, that's all.

MS THABETE: Thank you, no further questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Makoe?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one question, Chairperson.
	You say in this affidavit at paragraph 9, which is at page 2 of the affidavit, and I'll read you the whole thing so that the context is there.  This is where you get to the victim's house and you find an elderly woman and some children preparing for school.  You say you greeted and asked for the victim to come outside so that you can talk to her.
"She came with me outside"
You say then, and this is the important part relating to my question:
"Suddenly her sister showed up and told me there was nothing I can do as she had already spoken to the street committee."
You said that you had orders which you had to fulfil and then you shot her.  My question is this;  why didn't you stop and listen to what she was trying to tell you before you executed her?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: There is only one reason after I was told that there is nothing I could do because they had spoken to the street committee.  I was only executing the order that was given to my by my commander, I had not point in listening to any other person.  That is why I executed an order.

MR LAX: Well is it not correct that the SDUs operated under the control of the street committees?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: Yes, you are correct.  That is why when she told me about the street committee, this happened in the morning and the order was issued out a day before, that was at night, I just carried out an order because I did not know whether the commander met with the street committee or not.
	What I know is that I was given an order by the commander and I had to execute that order.  I would not defy his orders.

MS THABETE: Well it's a very simple matter, why didn't you make sure before you killed this person that what the sister was telling you might have been true, either with your commander or with the street committee or with both?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: I think it is stated clearly in the documents that I was supposed to execute an order before 8.30, half past eight.  That is why I executed this order because the time was nearing the limit, it was twenty past eight.
	I would not retreat from an order.  The commander did not tell me that should you encounter problems come back to me, he said go execute an order.

MS THABETE: You had to eliminate the victim by 8 o'clock, that is what you said in paragraph 7 of your affidavit.  Now my question remains, were your orders so categorical that any changed circumstances couldn't be taken into account?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: There was no way of listening to any other person, the commander had taken out an order.  As a foot solider I was supposed to execute what I was given.  Had I concentrated on something else, that would have been a defiance.  I was only acting on orders.

MS THABETE: Well after you had shot her, did you go to your commander and did you say;  listen, I may have made a mistake here because this woman said to me that the street committee had said I shouldn't kill her, but I wasn't going to listen to her I did it anyway?  Didn't you raise that with your commander afterwards?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: I think it was in the afternoon round about past five when I went to the commander.  I wanted to explain to him that I fulfilled the mission.  He said well I know what happened, what you can do is to be in the hide-out during the day and come out at night.  Now that statement; "I know what happened" gave me the impression that he knew everything and he gave me and order to move out of the area.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just as a follow-up from the questions that have been put to you by Mr Lax, I think it's common cause that you regarded, no, the common cause that there was a conflict in your area between the IFP and the ANC, is it not so?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your affidavit you say that Ms Feni was regarded as an IFP spy and therefore an enemy of your community, which community was largely ANC, is it not so?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sister that showed up when you came in to execute your order, was she a member of the IFP or was she perceived to be an IFP person?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: Which sister, the sister who approached when an order was about to be executed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: She stayed in the township.  There was no way of suspecting her of being a member of the IFP.  She stayed with us in the township right through, she was a member of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she related to Ms Feni, was she a blood relative of Ms Feni?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe her when she said she had already spoken to the street committee, or you thought that it was just an attempt to try and save a member of her family for the death which  you were about to befall on her?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: When she said she had been to the street committee already, I took that as a measure of protecting a member of the family.  And that statement actually encouraged me on what the commander has ordered me to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when were you ordered by Ace to eliminate Ms Feni, can you estimate?  The order was carried out on the 22nd of September 1992, no, you were instructed on the 21st of September 1992, is that when you were given this order to eliminate Ms Feni?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: The order was given to me on the 21st of September.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Chanyela, that being Ace, give you a reason why the order had to be carried out not later than eight the following day?