Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I can say myself when we were going to Brig Gqozo's place - not at the college, there was no plan at the college, but we knew that if we can get a person who is close to him, a person like Gen Nqoya we would get access to Brig Gqozo, that is why I had to be included in the delegation that was going to Brig Gqozo's place.   We were heavily armed because his bodyguards were there.  If he had caused some problems we would even shoot him, Brig Gqozo that is.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would I be correct to assume that the person who had intentions to shoot Brig Gqozo should he misbehave or should he not adhere to your request, it was you yourself.  You did not discuss that with other members of your group.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, that was myself.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I am saying only yourself.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: It was myself.  I'm the one who had told himself that I was going to shoot him if he happened to misbehave when we tell him to go and address the police at the college.  I had told myself that because my brother was killed by his ADM in Pedi.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now let's go to another aspect.  Do you know Capt Mondo?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, I know him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At the time he was with the unit logistics.  Are you aware of that?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, he is still working there even now.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to him you and one Peteni and others, you actually went to logistics and you forcefully took Col Wuso out of logistics, the time could have been about 3 o'clock on the 22nd of March 1994.  Were you there?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: No, I was not there in that delegation who went to fetch Col Wuso.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, are you aware that there was a delegation which went to fetch Col Wuso?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: That is possible, that could be possible because some police were sent to go and fetch other police and others were coming voluntarily.   An example, there was a bus that left from Umtanzani to fetch the other policemen and when it came back it was full.  I am not sure whether they did go to Col Wuso but I was not part of that delegation who went to fetch the people at logistics.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But according to him you were there.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: No, I don't remember myself going there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Are you aware that Col Wuso was taken at gun-point from his office to the police college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I cannot dispute that he was taken at gun-point, I can also dispute because I was not present, I was not there.  The person who would be in a better position to answer that question perhaps is Peteni because they allege that he was also there, but I was not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, what was the last time when the officers came to the police college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I think, if my memory serves me well, the officers were coming in even towards the early hours of the morning.  Some were woken up in their houses.  It was not only the officers, even the policemen they were still coming in, there were still members, I won't refer to them as officers, there were still members who were still coming in towards the early hours of the morning.  Others were coming from places like Whittlesea, even at about 4 in the morning they were still coming in.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have mentioned that some of the officers were taken from their homes.  Can you still recall who were those?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: The person that I remember very well that when he came in the morning, that's what I heard actually, it is Gen Nqoya.  I don't know whether he was fetched from his house or his wife was taken from the house, but there were people who were taken from their houses.   If the others were not there their families would be taken and the example, Gen Nqoya was not there but his family was taken and I am so thankful to what was done by the soldiers because I heard that the soldiers are the ones who caught him, he was with his bodyguards.  It means that there was a great influence because we were one with the soldiers because, at the time when we went to those soldiers at the base, I forgot to mention that in the evening at about 9 and 10 we went to the army base to tell them that if they happen to see Gen Nqoya they should catch him because we wanted him to go to the college.  Then, meaning they met him on the way, I don't know where did they get him, but they brought him along.  I am certain that some officers were fetched from their houses.  I'm not sure whether Gen Nqoya when they found him, he was in the military complex or in the state house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, when the officers were first from their homes, do you know who gave that instruction?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: There was only one instruction.  Even on that day I gave out some orders.  I would give orders if I knew that there were some other police who were not there.  For an example, in Adoni's case when his name was mentioned there in the hall, I sent the police to go and fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now I understand that this was announced over the radio, that is radio control, that the police should go to the college.  Why was it necessary for you to send the policemen to fetch Superintendent Adoni?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: It could have happened that Superintendent Adoni could not get the message that the police were needed.  I want to explain that our officers, even now, they don't have the two-way radios, those that are used for communication with the control.  It might have been that he did not get the message and even those that were fetched from their houses, they did not get the message, so at that time, as we wanted everyone to come, we wanted all the police to be included, to be a part, so that Brig Gqozo could see that we were all one, but it was not important how to get the police to be gathered in one place.  I saw Mr Nqoya pointed with guns, I saw him coming in because he is the one who left the place at about 11 promising to come back, but he did not come back.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let's talk about Adoni.  Why did you say Adoni should be fetched by other policemen?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: They said this, I mentioned this before, that the police officers they do not have the radios, not Adoni specifically but all the police officers did not have the radios.  Each and every police was supposed to be there.  We were obliged to go and fetch him.  Adoni's name was mentioned, I think he was at the finance department if I'm not mistaken, or at the inspectorate office, there was a maladministration of funds as these problems were being raised and for example Brig  Kondo mentioned that he found a cheque in his drawer, there were so many problems that were being discussed, he told us that he found a cheque of about R88 000 and he cashed that cheque and he used that money.  We had a proof that Brig Gqozo had stepped down but we wanted him to go the following day to the stadium and address the masses.

MR NOMPOZOLO: During the night or early hours of the evening you were aware that officers had been fetched from their offices.  Am I correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: You mean at their houses, or their offices?  I do not understand the question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: From their offices.  That is early evening of the 22nd.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: As far as I know I do not remember that there would be any officer in the evening because it was after 4.  If they were there as we were coming in the commissioner's office, the one that we used to refer it as a glass house, the one that is next to the legislature, there was no one.  We went across towards the parliament and we checked the offices, there was no one.  I don't know what is it that they were looking for or what is it that they were doing at the offices in the evening, those whom are said to be taken from the offices in the evening.