Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is obviously not a computer produced, in fact, it looks to me like a typewriter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: So, I, it is, unless I may be wrong, it may be the printer that was used to produce this, produces another typeface, but this is not the typeface of my wife or my own computer which is produced by the printer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I know, I am aware of the printer.

UNKNOWN: May I ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is why.

UNKNOWN: May I suggest, Mr Chairman, that before he is re-examined, I am sure that his counsel can ask Mrs Derby-Lewis where it comes from or not.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to say, Mr Bizos, whether that document comes from the computer or whether it was a document typed by somebody in the police?

UNKNOWN: We were told that it was printed out of Mrs Derby-Lewis' computer.  This is what we were told.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Well, now, you will have an opportunity to deal with this ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... and consult with your counsel once the cross-examination is over.

JUDGE WILSON: Did the handwritten bit also come out of the computer?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Which handwritten portion, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: "Not such a good friend".

UNKNOWN: Let me just clarify the position.  The computer was taken away and there was a hard drive.  It comes out of the hard drive found in Mrs Derby-Lewis' computer and printed on the Police printer.  No, that is my handwriting, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Oh, so you are writing comments on documents that you are handing in as exhibits.  I do not think you should, Mr Bizos.

UNKNOWN: It was the only copy that I had, Mr Chairman.  I apologise.  Please ignore my, the marginal note that I made.  Had I noticed it, I would have scratched it out, Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, may I just make one comment regarding this?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I must express my surprise that the SAP are still in possession of documents which belong to my wife after she was found not guilty of any crime by the Supreme Court of the Witwatersrand, and I query the motives and if this is part of the continued pressuring of us, Mr Chairman, then I want to express my strongest disapproval of this.  I do not think this is acceptable behaviour.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think it is a matter that can be raised with the authorities and that is the police from whose files this document has been obtained.  That is a matter between you or your wife, rather, and the police.  She is entitled to demand everything that belongs to her which they have taken away.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Can we proceed?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I am still waiting to see the statement that Mr Bizos is using regarding Dr Buthulezi or is that finished now?

UNKNOWN: That is finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: It is being copied and you will get a copy and if you want to say anything about it in re-examination you will have ample opportunity.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Okay, Mr Chairman, thank you.

UNKNOWN: You, have you had an opportunity of looking at R5, which is the statement of Mr Jerome Cronin with annexures?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I must state that I received it together with R4, but I have not had an opportunity to have a look at it, because I have been, obviously, been involved with more pressing matters and I believed that the time for that would come when the time arrives for witnesses to be cross-examined and I could then prepare myself at the stage.

UNKNOWN: Well, what I want to put to you in general terms is this, that this statement has annexures attached to it of public statements made by Mr Chris Hani at various functions from 1991 to shortly before his death and what I want to put to you is that this public record of Mr Hani's utterances are completely in conflict with the picture that you and the applicant, the first applicant tried to paint of Mr Hani.  Did you bother, from 1991 to 1993, to read or inform yourself what the position of Mr Hani was in relation to the future of South Africa?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the perception that I had of Mr Hani I obtained from the media which I, with which I am familiar.  I do not know whether that documentation contains references from them or whether it is other documentation, because I have not perused the document, but ...

UNKNOWN: Well, ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... my perception of ...

UNKNOWN: Well, let me tell you that they were statements made on public platforms, on a radio programme, statements at CODESA and elsewhere which were given the widest publicity.  Did it come to your notice or did you close your eyes and ears ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

UNKNOWN: ... to everything that the person that you decided to murder had been saying for the last three years, the last three years of his life?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I think that people are familiar with the basic Communist technique and that is repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think that is the, you are required to make a comment on that.  That is a matter for argument.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read these reports that appeared from time to time which reflected the thinking of Mr Hani from between 1990 to 1993?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman, because I am not sure which reports is, Mr Bizos is referring to, but I can say that I noticed reports about Mr Hani.  I mentioned in testimony that I had based my decision to target Mr Hani after a press report in February which reported that Mr Hani was agitating to obtain weaponry back from Angola into South Africa.  So I was aware of some, but I do not, I cannot give a blanket statement and say I was aware of everything, Mr Chairman, and ...

UNKNOWN: Well, ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and certainly, I have never heard Mr Hani on a radio programme nor have I watched him on television.

UNKNOWN: It is a pity that you did not take an opportunity, even now, to read them even though you had about ten days, but in any event, do I understand your answer that whatever Mr Hani may have said, you would have dismissed as unimportant.  You had your own ideas about Mr Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not say that, Mr Chairman.  I said I ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: What did you say, Sir?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I said that I had read some reports on Mr Hani and that I did not believe that the reports that I had read of this man of peace were truthful.  I have also been told, Mr Chairman, for example, that he was a practising Christian at the time of his death and, yet, I am aware of a report, I do not, I am not sure whether it was on a radio programme or a TV programme where Mr Hani was being interviewed and I was advised that he stated categorically during that interview that he did not believe in God.  So, I think you can understand my difficulty, Mr Chairman, what is said and what is done are conflicting poles of one another and so ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: You did not care what he said and you did not try and weigh up what he was saying over this period of three years before deciding whether he was the anti-Christ that you had to kill.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it, I believe I am correct in saying that it was the general perception amongst people on the right that Mr Hani and his Communist Party were only interested in one thing and that was the attainment of power, not democracy, the attainment of power, and that they would do everything in their power to achieve that end.

UNKNOWN: The "everything" was that the majority of the people of South Africa would vote for them into office?