Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

MS MTANGA: Do you agree that the grounds for arresting Dr Farisani came from the evidence given by Reverend Posiwa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it might be so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The statement, not the evidence.

MS MTANGA: The statement.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Made.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it's true.

MS MTANGA: Do you agree that the statement made by Reverend Posiwa was made during his torture, after he had been arrested?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes, yes it was while he was being interrogated and assaulted.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware that Dr Farisani was arrested before Reverend Posiwa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I am not sure who was arrested first.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa Dr Farisani will testify that he was one of the first people to be arrested.  To be precise the first person who was arrested for the bomb attack was Mr Mophe, Mr Chikororo and Mr Rachitanga and he followed that group. He was the fourth person to be arrested, long before Reverend Posiwa had many statement concerning him.  What do you say to this?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: There is nothing that I can dispute.  But what I know is that while we were working sometimes they have files, because people like Mr Farisani used to have files, while when you are reading the files you can find that he is linked to various information.  Sometimes it happened that way.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa I put it to you that Dr Farisani will testify that at the time you arrested him you had no grounds, or evidence, linking him to the bombing.  You merely arrested him because of his political activities which had nothing to do with the bomb attack and therefore you had no grounds for arresting him.  What do you say to this?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: They arrest of Dr Farisani is that I was investigating the bombing case and it was said that two people went to his home and then we took it from there that Dr Farisani might be knowing something in connection with the freedom fighters who are infiltrating the country.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But your evidence earlier on has been that you arrested him because you got information linking him to the bombing of the police station.  When you made the arrest you already had that information.  It was the basis of your arrest.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that when you arrested him, if he was arrested first, before Reverend Posiwa, you had no basis for arresting him?  What is it that you had that linked him to the bombing of the police station?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: If I can remember well his arrest was because we have received information that people went to his home and those people found that Dr Farisani wasn't there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: And those people were taken to Reverend Mahamba's place and then he was arrested on that ground I suppose, because we were investigating what happened, and in order to find out what those people were looking for in Dr Farisani's place.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But didn't you get that information from Reverend Posiwa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: This thing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was it actually, just to intervene, I think it was put to the witness that yesterday there was evidence, and then he agreed that that might be the case.  Initially he said that Dean Farisani was arrested because there was information about people going to his house, and then Ms Mtanga said well yesterday this is what Mr Ramaligela said. And then he said that might be so.  It wasn't his own evidence as such, other than he confirmed that it might be so.
	But in any event we are really not going to be making the finding on the validity of an arrest, what we are concerned with is the torture, so this is actually a side issue to the subject of this application for amnesty.  We are interested in what happened after the arrest.  That's what they have applied for amnesty for.  They haven't applied for amnesty in respect of the arrest of these detainees.  Continue.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I would like to respond to the remark you have just made.  It is the view of the victims that they were arrested - at the time they were arrested there were no grounds for them to be arrested.  The police were on a fishing expedition and as such they were tortured until they had to formulate some kind of story for the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh you are saying that basically there was an element of malice.

MS MTANGA: And if there were no political grounds for arresting them they couldn't have had political motive to torture them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may continue with that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, you are addressing the response which Managa has made to questions made particularly under paragraph 10A and 10B, is it not so?

MS MTANGA: It is so, Chairperson, thank you.
	Mr Managa Mr Mahumela maintains that you were part of the team that tortured him and you have emphatically denied this, but he still would like to know where was he on the 12th of November to the 14th of November, because he was unconscious and unaware of his whereabouts?  Are you able to tell this Committee of Mr Mahumela's whereabouts?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No that I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: You say from the 12th to the 14th that he was unconscious?

MS MTANGA: He was unconscious from 12 November 1981 to the 14th of November 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall Mr Mahumela being unconscious for that period of time?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you can't remember, if he was unconscious, if he was lying there unconscious in your detention would you have remembered it?  Or is that the sort of thing you would forget?  I mean it was for two days, three days.  How can you forget something like that if he was unconscious?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No he was never unconscious.  I can't remember seeing him being unconscious.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ms Mtanga before you proceed I see now you are dealing with your instructions with regard to Mr Mahumela and his condition, that's what you are putting to the witness.  I thought you were still going to explore what the Chair has now allowed you to explore with regard to the questions that you wanted to clear with Mr Managa in relation to the reasonableness of Mr Farisani's arrest.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, I lost track of my questions.
	Mr Managa, you have agreed that the basis for arresting Dr Farisani was the statement made by Reverend Posiwa when he was being tortured by yourselves, are you able to tell this Committee, if Dr Farisani was arrested before Reverend Posiwa what other basis was there for arresting Dr Farisani?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: What I still remember, which is still coming to my mind, is that Dean Farisani when he was arrested he was arrested because of those people, because we were asking those people, we were asking whether he knows the people who came to his home.  He said no, those people who came, I wasn't there.  But he was telling the truth that the people came during his absence.

MS MTANGA: Who was telling the truth Mr Managa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Dean Farisani, but the way he was explaining we realised that he was telling - I can say he was telling the truth because on the arrival of those people Mr Posiwa was found and Dean Farisani wasn't there.  He was telling the truth.  And Farisani, said, and I think Reverend Posiwa would have said, when the two people arrived Dean Farisani was there.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa you are not answering my question.  I want to know the grounds that you had for arresting Dr Farisani, what grounds did you have besides Reverend Posiwa's statement?