Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think I will just have to explain briefly with regard to that.  We were arrested on the 17th of February 1989, the three of us and the other two guys were questioned by the police from the 17th up to the 19th of February.
 It was only on the 19th that they started investigating and interrogating me and the police came up with this name, I think they got that name from the other statements given by my accomplices who were investigated before me.  I tried to find out as to where the name Johannes comes from and I realised that it emanated from a statement that was earlier given by my accomplices, that is accused number two and three.  I'm not the one who spoke about Johannes, this name was brought by the police who were investigating Mr Dlamini and Mr Shwala.

YASMINE SOOKA: If I understand you correctly, then accused number two was Thulani Dlamini, now are you talking about a third accomplice in the murder of Doctor Asvat?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: The third person is Mr Wellington Zondo, that is the person with who we were arrested but he was later released.

YASMINE SOOKA: ...[inaudible] the name of Mr Jacob Mazibuko, who is Mr Mazibuko?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I do know Jacob Mazibuko, he's a police informer.

YASMINE SOOKA: Why do you say that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: It's because he appeared in court - when I was appearing at the Supreme Court, to come and give evidence that he was the one who fetched the police to come and arrest us.

YASMINE SOOKA: ...[inaudible] just would like to confirm one more thing with you, you say that you and Thulani Dlamini - that your mothers are sisters, is this correct.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also say that Mr Shwala Botha is a home boy, can you explain that please?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We stay in different sections but within the same area in one region.

YASMINE SOOKA: So, when he drove you - in terms the version you've given in this statement, you knew him from before from Ngoma, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mgojo?

UNKNOWN: I'll address you in Zulu so that I make things easier for you.   I want to know, after you had murdered Doctor Asvat, which direction did you flee to?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We went out of his gate, there was an ambulance just in front of the gate and we went to the left hand side - if you do have a picture of the area or the place, there's a little dam just below there and we proceeded to a certain street and got into the park.

UNKNOWN: I have one more question for you.  All the statements that you have submitted and which are not mutually reconcilable, did you take any oath before submitting the statements or when you made the statements?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't understand you when you ask whether an oath was administered.

UNKNOWN: I mean at the time when you submitted the statements, did you take an oath or not before making the statements?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: If I remember quite well, when I appeared at the Regional Court I was sworn in but with regard to the other statements I have no recollection.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sworn in when you make the statement - at the time when you make the statement, or after having made the statement?  Did that happen with regard to all the statements that are before us today including the TRC statement?  The answer is yes or no there, just don't beat around the bush.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't remember well, as I've said that I remember submitting a statement at Westgate Regional Court.

UNKNOWN: With regard to the TRC statement, we realised that you wanted to - you did not want to implicate Thulani or you wanted to implicate Thulani because you say Thulani is the one who killed, why would you do that to your cousin?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'll give just a brief explanation.  If I remember, I did give an explanation before that I wasn't prepared to speak to the Truth Commission staff or officials, I did not know whether I could trust them.  When I said Thulani is the one who had killed I was telling a deliberate lie.

UNKNOWN: What is it that would make us believe you now and believe that this is the truth after having made a lot of false statements.  You've made a series of false statements by your own admission, now how do we believe that today you are telling the truth and nothing else but the truth?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I have taken a decision and what I can say is, all that the police did and all that I said in other statements that were used in the courts of law were not true but now what I've just said to the Truth Commission - if it's possible or if there's anybody who feels dissatisfied with whatever I've said today, I can just say I've got a belief that whoever wants to know the truth will know the truth as from today.
 There's no other truth that you will know besides the one that I have told you today because I would not account for something that I did not do.  I'm coming before you and accounting unequivocally and I do not know what more or what else can I possibly say in order to satisfy you because this is my last chance to speak the truth so that there may not be any doubts in the future.

MRPETER SOLLER: Chairperson, one question.  Mr Mbatha, when you appeared in the Supreme Court and you were sentenced to death, you were represented by a pro deo counsel, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MRPETER SOLLER: Were you able easily to explain to your pro deo counsel the history of what you've told the Commission today?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: To be honest, I want to tell the Commission that there was a time when I got wind that there was a statement submitted by Mr Dlamini in Bryanston and I wanted to know as to why ...[indistinct] statement was submitted to court and made into evidence whereas mine wasn't.  Was he pressing me down?  He didn't show any co-operation with me, he did things unilaterally and it did not show that he wanted to absolve me from the issues.

MRPETER SOLLER: ...[inaudible] counsel.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I'm talking about my counsel.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Did I hear you say you couldn't complete your amnesty forms because you couldn't complete the part that says
"On whose instructions"?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I recall the question that I was asked and my answer was that I was charged with murder and robbery and I discovered that in the form that I was supposed to fill in, I wasn't able to answer some of the questions which were posed therein and I did not know as to how to fill the form in and nobody came forward to explain to me as to what I should say or do.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] one of the easiest aspects of that form for you to complete is to say: "It was on the instruction of Mrs Mandela" because that you knew.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I knew that.  I was convicted with regard to - I do not know how to explain this, I don't know as to how I can answer your question - whether you get me or not.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying to us that if you hadn't left your thumb print there you would not have gone ahead with the killing?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you repeat the question?

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] hadn't left your thumb print at Doctor Asvat's surgery, you would not have gone ahead with the killing?