Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: By whom?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: African commander Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: What firearms were you given?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: 2 R5's, 725's, magazines and ammunition.

MS COLLETT: Now, what was the aim of the mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: To shoot those people we were instructed to shoot.

MS COLLETT: The white people in the minibus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you regard this mission as being in line with the policies of APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, be believed so.

MS COLLETT: Did you question your mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Everything was explained to us and we no reason to ask questions, we just simply followed the orders.

MS COLLETT: Now, what was the instruction that you, what were you supposed to do after you'd completed this mission?  Who were you supposed to contact?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were supposed to report to African Mtura.

MS COLLETT: That is a code name, what is the real name?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Mtutu Zelimamma.

MS COLLETT: Now, is it correct that you left for Mdantsane?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS COLLETT: And is it correct that you spent the night at the house of your co-applicant Mbambo?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And did you go to a place where you could attack this minibus the next day?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we went.

MS COLLETT: And what happened?  Tell the Committee what happened on that day.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We woke up that morning, we prepared ourselves.  We washed ourselves, ate and after we were finished we prepared our arms, the ones that were issued to us and we concealed them under our clothes.  We went on foot to the place where we were supposed to carry out the attack.
	When we got there we waited because it had not arrived at the time.  We waited, it was not long before it appeared.  After that the late African Kid said: "Here it comes" and we then prepared ourselves.  
	The unit commander, the late African TNT issued a sign that by shooting the kombi to show that we must all shoot.  Truly we followed suit shooting at the minibus.  We shot and shot.  It was only when he shouted: "Cease fire", and at the time I had finished by magazine.

MS COLLETT: And R5 magazine?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is true.

MS COLLETT: What happened to the kombi, the minibus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: After it stopped I changed my magazine because it was a double one, one looking up and one facing down.  We then turned away and left, we did not know what happened afterwards.

MS COLLETT: Do you know if people were injured?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie because I do not know what happened.

MS COLLETT: But you didn't go and see what had happened after you had fired at the minibus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, we did not.

MS COLLETT: Did you report the matter to Matura as you had been told to do?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we reported it to him.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct Mr Ncamazana, that you've never been arrested or tried for this incident?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When perhaps?

MS COLLETT: For the Fort Knox College, shooting of that minibus, you have never stood trial, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I was never tried for it.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that is a disclosure that you are making of your own free will in a bid to seek amnesty?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And have you made full disclosure as far as this incident is concerned?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, in answering all the questions I've done that.

MS COLLETT: Right.  Now did you receive further instructions after this attack had taken place?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And what was the next mission that you people had to undertake?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was in accordance with an attack in a church in P.E.

MS COLLETT: Was it not the attack of the Bahai Faith Mission in Mdantsane?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: From whom did you receive these instructions?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: From the commander African Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: And what was the purpose of this attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The motive for the attack was to go to the Church and kill all white people inside.

MS COLLETT: Were those the instructions that you were given?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, what members of APLA were to be involved in this attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: After we had finished the first minibus attack and reporting back we were then instructed, because we were told that - we noted that we would not get a driver, we were told that we were going to get another driver sent who was going to help us on another mission.  Because it was said, after this mission we had to go back to Transkei fast.
	Tona was sent to come and drive for us.  That then meant we were five people who were supposed to come from Transkei, four I mean, four.  We were then five, with my co-applicant or co-accused because when we reported there, explaining of the attack our contact whom we stayed at, we did not think he was trustworthy anymore.  That then meant we had to return back with him because we thought he might not be dangerous that way.  
	The contact that we were reporting to, Mr Matura, that information he was going to pass to African Jimmy Jones.  The taking of my co-accused Tjabane and the one of sending a new driver to us.

MS COLLETT: Who is Tona, what is his real name?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is Mandla Palapala.

MS COLLETT: Just inform the Committee who the five persons were who were going to be involved in the Bahai Faith Mission attack.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Myself, the late African TNT, the late African Kid, Tona, the African Tjabane.

MS COLLETT: What was the plan, what happened?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because the unit commander led us to entering the church yard, there was someone painting the door of the church, he pointed him with the gun and forced him inside and he was now throwing his arms into the air, this person.
	Other Africans followed behind him, I was at the back at the time.  I did not go into the place where the people were in, I just stood at the door but could see the people inside the church.  After that, after we entered there the unit commander, he shouted: "White this side and Africans this side".   People divided themselves, white people were at one side, black people in one corner.

MS COLLETT: How many white people went one side?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was only three.

MS COLLETT: Male or female?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Males only.

MS COLLETT: What was the purpose of separating the whites from the blacks?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because when we went to that church we were not there to attack black people.

MS COLLETT: Yes, what happened after they had been separated?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Commander then instructed African Tjabane that he fetch them so that we can find keys.  He went and searched them and found two car keys, a key of a BM and a key for a Jetta.  African Tjabane took those keys and gave them to African Tona.
	Tona went out and checked the car we were going to leave with.  After he exited, African Tjabane also followed.  After Tjabane had exited the hall rangs shot out, I mean bullets.  I heard the first 7.65 and then an R5.

MS COLLETT: Who gave the instruction to shoot?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Clearly the one who said people must shoot, it was the unit commander.

MS COLLETT: And that was TNT?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you shoot?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not shoot.

MS COLLETT: Were you still at the door?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I was standing at the door.

MS COLLETT: Who was fired at?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was the white people who were at the church at the time.

MS COLLETT: What was the intention?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was to follow the instructions given to us.

MS COLLETT: To do what?