Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I see before us we have Exhibit P, the relevant extracts from the work entitled "Forensic Analysis of the Skull", by Iskan and Helmut.  Does everybody have a copy of this?

MR VISSER: The pages Chairperson, by way of explanation, are only the ones that we referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: You made reference to, yes.

MR VISSER: But of course anyone is welcome to look at the whole thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, you indicated yesterday that you'll be calling a witness.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Two things have intervened.  I believe Ms Thabethe has been requested to recall Ms Stephanie Miller, so we've arranged that if that's acceptable, that she'll go first.
	I would like to just place on record at this stage, or make an application at this stage, Chairperson, that I apply to recall Dr Naidoo.  There was one bit of evidence which I didn't put to him, which I think is material.  He has been contacted and he would be available to come at midday today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I can't see any objection to that.  Is there any objection to that?  Yes certainly, Mr Wills.  Ms Thabethe, you say you wish to call Ms Miller.
	Ms Miller, do you swear that the further evidence that you give at this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, would you please raise your right hand and say I do.

STEPHANIE MILLER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?   Sorry, is ...(intervention)

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, may I assist.  I am under instructions from Mr Nel just to put a certain statement to the witness, which is as a result of the Exhibits Q1, 2 and 3, the Section 29, or so-called Section 29 hearings of Andy Taylor.  There's just one or two matters which he just wanted to make clear regarding the evidence that was led by Ms Miller during ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Nel did approach me yesterday, not in connection with this evidence, but informed me and asked for leave to come late this morning because he had to go to the Magistrate's Court or something like that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Does everybody have a copy of Exhibit Q1, 2 and 3?

MR VAN DER MERWE ON BEHALF OF MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Mrs Miller, you during your evidence stated that you obtained certain information from Andy Taylor regarding this incident during the Section 29 investigation and questioning, can you recall that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I can.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Have you since had an opportunity to look at Exhibits Q1, 2 and 3?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I haven't had a look at Exhibits Q1, 2 and 3, although I'm aware of them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right.  Well firstly, there's a couple of points which I was asked to put on record.  If we look at Exhibit Q1, which is the transcript of the proceedings in terms of Section 29, you will notice on the second-last page of that, which is typed page 11, that the witness was never at any stage sworn in.  I was asked to just stress that point.  He was never under oath during this, this was an informal discussion up to that stage.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr van der Merwe.
	Were you actually present at these proceedings which are recorded here, Mrs Miller?  27th of November 1996.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Mr Chairman, I was present when Mr Taylor prior - in the anti-room, prior to the hearings and I went in and out of the hearings, I did not stay for the ...

CHAIRPERSON: No I can recall you saying that earlier.

STEPHANIE MILLER: And I recall being reprimanded for going in and out by the person having the hearings, that I should either be in or out.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Which is evident from the record, we can see that you were reprimanded there.
	Secondly, when we look at Exhibit Q1, nowhere in this whole record is there any mention of the Ntombi Kubheka incident.  Would you agree with that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I haven't read it, but it might well be.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You can take my word for it.
	Then further, when we look at Exhibit Q3 which is the affidavit by Andrew Russel Carol Taylor, in response to the letter which was written by the TRC, Exhibit Q2, he says there in paragraph 27, where he intends applying for amnesty - it's on page 13 of that:
"I will state that to be the case and will then deal fully therewith in my amnesty applications, in order to avoid unnecessary duplication and that will not be done here."
So in this application he would have dealt with matters only that he didn't apply for amnesty for.

STEPHANIE MILLER: My understanding is that questions - I must tell you I have not read this, but in discussions with my colleagues since we requested that this be supplied, or found ... (intervention)

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well let me help you out as far as that's concerned ...

STEPHANIE MILLER: ... what I was advised was that a letter was written, which I do recall, was written to Mr Taylor putting a list of questions to him requesting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's Exhibit Q2.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That's right.

STEPHANIE MILLER: ... asking for increased information and that's exactly what happened, he omitted certain items, or didn't answer all the questions.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That's right.  Let me help you.  Exhibit Q2, on the 6th page, paragraph 15, the question was posed to Mr Taylor regarding the abduction, torture and killing of Ntombi Kubheka and Sibo Phewa(?), in 1986.  When we go to the affidavit of Mr Taylor, where he deals with all these matters and the questions that were put to him, and that is in his affidavit, page 19, after paragraph 38 you will notice that he does not deal with the question in paragraph 15 of Q2.  He does not answer any questions in this affidavit.  So my instructions are to put to you that when you gave evidence to say you got this information during the Section 29 hearings, it cannot be true.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is not correct.  I thought I made it quite clear that I could not recall whether the information was acquired from Mr Taylor informally, in our discussions prior to the hearing or actually at the hearing.  I did not recall at that time.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well it's quite evident now that it was not at the hearing.

STEPHANIE MILLER: It appears so.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Merwe.  Mr Visser, any questions?

MR VISSER: No thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you, Mrs Miller, that concludes your evidence.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  On behalf of the victim's families, I call the younger sister of the deceased in this matter, Ms Lyn Motoko Masetla nee Kubheka.  Mr Chairperson, Ms Masetla has elected to testify in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Ms Masetla, you are the youngest child of the Kubheka family and the younger sister of the deceased in this matter, is that correct?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, it is.

MR WILLS: Now as I understand it, you went into exile in December 1982 and it was around that time that you last saw your deceased sister.  At that stage she was living in eSikhawini, is that right?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: That's correct, but with a slight misinformation.  I last saw her in December 1982, but I left for exile in 1983, February.

MR WILLS: Sorry, yes.  Now during the ...(intervention)