Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: After the '76strikes and so forth, and then this movement of theirs, after they have killedone of the youngsters in our area there, then they dissolved themselves, thoseanti-Comrades, and then they started to make friends, saying that they weremaking peace with the students now. So those students they said, "No, you canjoin with us," and then they started joining the ANCs and so on and so on.

MR LAX: What I am interested in is why should they attack you personally?--- During that time, '76 and '89, they did not attack, but they started toattack me through 1990 up until 1991.

MR LAX: Yes, I am just interested because after 1990 President Mandelawas released, things started changing, the tensions started easing somewhat,and then this incident happened in 1991. And so I am just curious as to howthe alliances between you as an SACP person, here are the ANC Youth and otherANC Comrades in your township, and suddenly there's this quite serious attackon you.

WITNESS: I am getting on all right with the grown-ups, but I am not interestedto join with guys which I know that they have been used by the police to huntme or, you know, to do things against me, and they were actually being paidby the police, you know, to do such things to me.

MR LAX: So you think this was a plot by the police to use these peopleagainst you?

WITNESS: That was what was happening before.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Just one final question, Mr Phehlani, andit's a difficult thing to ask you, but I think I must just put it to you. Ourinvestigators have made inquiries in this area, and there have been allegationsmade that you were involved with the Eagles Gang ... (intervention)

WITNESS: No.

MR LYSTER: ... and the Security Branch in Brandfort. How do you respondto that?

WITNESS: No, it's very wrong, because the very Security guys they were thepeople hunting me.

MR LYSTER: Sorry?

WITNESS: They were the people arresting me. How can I bein favour of them who were arresting me? My house has been broken so many timesthere by the Security Police. They are searching my house every now and thenfor guns, they said I've got guns from Mozambique, guns from Durban, just likethat. My house still remains there with damaged doors by the Security Police.Making cases against the Security Police, there's nothing happening there.

MR LYSTER: Okay, thank you very much, Mr Phehlani.

MR LYSTER: Is there any organisation where you are of the ANC now? Isthere any ANC organisation in the place where you are now?

WITNESS: Yes, we are havingANC there at Brandfort now.

MR LYSTER: Does it have officials?

WITNESS: Yes, they do have officials there.

MR LYSTER: Have they dealt with your case, especially now that everythingis transparent, is open?

WITNESS: They are so afraid of these youths. They are afraid.

MR LYSTER: You say the ANC is afraid of the youth?

WITNESS: They are afraidof these youths.

MR LYSTER: Okay.

WITNESS: Even in the police they themselves are afraid ofthese guys, these youngsters.

MR LYSTER: Mr Phehlani ... (intervention)

WITNESS: There are cases which Ireported to the police, but there's nothing happening there.

MR LYSTER: Mr Phehlani, you have been very patient, having many questionsput to you, and I think it's partly because it's a very confusing picture, whichof course was true of many, many areas in South Africa, of different loyalties,different groupings, different struggles. I have only just one last question.You mentioned the names of the people who were arrested. They were there whenyour shop was being burnt, they were there when your son was stabbed, they werethere when your wife was killed, when your other son's car was set alight. Avery big case, very serious, and many of them were charged, but some of themturned State's witness and three of them, I think, were convicted. Now, in ananswer to a question earlier you said that two of them got light sentences fordamage to property, but one I think was actually - was he found guilty of murderingyour wife? Was that the charge?

WITNESS: It's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR LYSTER: Can you remember what the sentence was?

WITNESS: I've got the presscuttings here.

MR LYSTER: Can you just remember was it five years, 10 years?

WITNESS: He wassentenced to 10 years, I suppose, Mr Chairman. He was sentenced for 10years. It says here, "Afrikaans quotation" That's the press cuttings.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, that's very helpful, because the question I wantto know is, these people, some who turned State witness, some charged with damageto property, one for the murder of your wife, did you know any of them? I meanwere these people that you knew before? I mean had you met them, had you workedwith them, or had they worked against you? Were these strangers or did you knowthem?

WITNESS: Mr Chairman, they were not strangers. They were actually thepeople who were being helped by my wife, because every day they were going thereasking for food. The very same day they killed her they were there in the morningsession going to ask for some food.

MR LYSTER: Thank you. So they were part of the group that used to be theanti-Comrades and now had become Comrades.

WITNESS: They had become Comrades.

MR LYSTER: Okay. Thank you very much. In all the questions we mustn'toverlook the tragedy of violence which has gripped this country for so long,and has still gripped this country in many part of South Africa. There can beno excuse for murder, and for arson, and for killing, and you carry a very heavyload. Whatever your political allegiances were, to have a wife who was murdered,to have a son who is now not well as a result of severe stabbings, to have yourentire property destroyed, is very serious, and we don't want you to think fora moment that we don't sympathise deeply with your loss. And we have heard you,we have heard also the requests that you have made, and we will certainly bepassing that on.

MR LYSTER: As you know, and perhaps I should explain so that everybodycan understand the procedure, we do not make a decision now. We have to thinkabout all of these issues very, very carefully, and we make a recommendationto the President of our country, and he then has to look at this and, with thehelp of his advisers, he then makes a recommendation to Parliament, and Parliamentthen decides what should happen. Now, it's unfortunate that all of this alwaystakes time. I wish I could tell you that tomorrow we will make a decision andall is well, but bureaucracy doesn't work like that. All I can tell you is thatwe will look into the situation very, very carefully, and we will bear in mindthe requests you have made, and I think you very much for coming today. Thankyou.

WITNESS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

DR BORAINE: You are Pumla Marina Mashoang?

PUMLA MARINA MASHOANG: Yes, Sir.

DR BORAINE: And you live at Opkomps in Bloemfontein?

PUMLA MARINA MASHOANG: Yes, Sir.

DR BORAINE: A very warm welcome to you. You have beenwaiting quite a while already, but there are many others who are even waitingfor the rest of the day. We want you to know that you are in a friendly environment.You are here to be heard, whatever your story is, and we look forward to that.But please tell me, you have brought somebody with you. Can you tell me whothat is?

PUMLA MARINA MASHOANG: It's my ex-husband.

DR BORAINE: Your ex-husband? Well, I think we shouldsay to him that we are very grateful to you, Sir, for coming and for supportingyour former wife in this tragedy. I assume that you were the parents of theson?

PUMLA MARINA MASHOANG: Yes, Sir.

DR BORAINE: It was your son as well. Thank you. You'regoing to tell us about son and what happened to him, but, Mrs Mashoang, I mustask you please to stand to take the oath.

PUMLA MARINA MASHOANG: (Sworn, States)