bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-06-02

MS GOBODO- MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much, Mr Rasool. I will ask if anyone of the panel if you want to make comments.
I just want to pick up on something that you mentioned earlier on, you, when you started your presentation, you mentioned that the process in the comm (tape ends) ... can capture fully what it meant to be involved in those traumatic incidents and I agree with you absolutely. The irony with the Trojan Horse event in particular is that the term "Trojan Horse" conceals rather than reveals what it was all about. There was a lot that happened as a result of it and I think that the facts and the difficulties that there are in general in talking about trauma makes it extremely challenging for survivors and families of the victims to talk about their pain and I think that we should accept that this is a normal thing that happens with talking about trauma. It is part of the experience, the psychological experience of talking about trauma, there is an avoidance of talking about trauma, the repression,  the denial but at the same time there is a need to talk about it, and I think that, when people talk about their pain it puts them on the road to healing of their pain and we should acknowledge that and I think this is part of the reason that we opened up the commission to public testimony and I would like to mention that in fact, there are many people who have proved the fact that this ambivalence. Some people who have come today initially  didn't want to come but at the same time they decided that after all they want to come. So that's ambivalence all the time.
 I think it was George Orwell who called it double think when we deal with issues of trauma there is that tendency  that people find it uncomfortable but they find the drawing need to talk about their pain and we welcome the fact that families of the victims and survivors do come to talk about their stories. Thank you very much.

EBRHIM RASOOL: Thanks very much.
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-06-02

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Swart, Good Afternoon, You will be talking about the role of teachers at the time of the unrest. Isn't that correct? Would you please proceed with your submission.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-28

MS MKHIZE: Yes.  Thank you very much.  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  You have really brought before us the pain ...

SHEILA MASOTE: Yes, and I haven't spoken about my imprisonment and ...

MS MKHIZE: Yes, I'm coming.  I'm just giving you the break so as to help you to focus.  You can have something to drink, but basically what you have done, you have really brought before us the pain and the suffering of generations of children, born in activist families.
 We appreciate what you have done and we hope this is the healing mud for you, not only for you, but for your daughter as well;  as she's looking at you and her brother, your son, where he is.
 Sheila, having said that, I would really like you to tell the Commission about your own detention in 1977.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Once more I would like to welcome all of you who have just come in now to support women who are today making statements.  While welcoming you I would like to make an announcement that Ms Neta Mogase, Mayoress of the Greater Johannesburg Metropolitan Council, cordially invites all of you, I suppose, to a cocktail reception which is today at five o' clock in the Mayor's Parlour, first floor, Council Chamber Wing, Metropolitan Centre, Braamfontein on the occasion in honour of todays hearings.  If you are interested you can tell any of our staff members on duty here or if you have a cellular phone, which I will remind all of you to switch off, is to phone Ms Themba Mkwanazi.  The telephone number is 4077490, but the easiest is just to inform members of staff here that you would like to come.  If, maybe, you are outside this, you can just phone so as to make arrangements for parking.
 At this point in time I would like to ask Deborah Matshoba to come forward.  Deborah, I would like to welcome you.  We have just heard a submission from a research group.  I would like you to introduce yourself and to tell people about your involvement and also to give a broader perspective about women's involvement in the struggle, the political struggles of the past.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, excuse me Deborah, can I just ask all the people with cellular phones to switch them off please.  This is very, very important for witnesses.  We need to make sure that their dignity is restored as they tell, talk about their difficult past.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: We shall request our very last witness for the day to come before us.  That will be Mrs Mavuso.  We do apologise that you had to stay for so long before coming forward to give your evidence.  We would like to remind you about the Mayor's invitation and also after Thandi we will still have that cultural event, whatever form it takes.  So we will be happy if people can be patient.  We request you to stand up so that you can make an oath and raise your right hand.

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I will request you to start and explain your whole story and explain who you are.

SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: I am Sarafina Thandi Mavuso.  I live in Thokoza.  I run a pre-school, a day centre, that is the job that I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue to the Commissioners and relate the story that you have come here for.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: We will now ask Jubie Mayet.  It has been a long day for you, Jubie.  We will ask you to come forward.  I note that this morning you were the first one here, but we appreciate your patience.  I will ask Commissioner Yasmin Sooka to assist you in taking an oath and in making your, in talking through your statement.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Jubie, are you going to take an affirmation or the oath, whichever.

JUBIE MAYET: Whichever.

JUBIE MAYET: (Duly sworn in, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  You may be seated.  Jubie, you have given us a written statement.  We have talked about the parts that we actually want you to emphasise.  So I am going to ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell us your story.  Thank you.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Could we please call the next witness,   Lita Nombango Mazibuko, to the witness stand please.
 Miss Mazibuko we would like to welcome you to the hearings   of the Commission. We are very glad that you have come to testify today. Could   you please tell me what language you are going to speak in? Zulu. Thank you.

LITA NOMBANGO MAZIBUKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mazibuko you have come to tell us your   story while you were in exile. I am going to ask you to tell us very briefly   a little bit about yourself and then tell us about your own experiences.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Our last witness before we go out for lunch is Alli, Mr Alli Maziya.  We invite you, Mr Maziya, to come forward and while Mr Maziya is coming forward I would like just to say much as he is bringing a painful story, but in terms of what we are talking about, it is also remarkable that a man is coming to talk on behalf of his wife and his family.  Since we started it has been mainly women who have been talking about their husbands and sons experiences.  So we really acknowledge what mr Maziya.  Many men whose husbands ...

YASMINE SOOKA: Wives.

CHAIRPERSON: ... whose wives in the process did not even think of coming forward so we thank you very much for coming forward.  I would like to extend a special word of welcome to you and I will ask Commissioner Yasmin Sooka to assist you with your statement.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Maziya, what language are you going to speak in?

ALLI MAZIYA: I think maybe it will be correct for me to use my home language, because I am not sure how emotions will carry me, but I am going to try to survive.

YASMINE SOOKA: Alright, if you could then just put your headphones on for me please.  Mr Maziya, we would like to thank you for coming today.  Before you begin to tell us your story I am going to ask you to stand so that you can take the oath please.

ALLI MAZIYA: (Duly sworn in, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  You may be seated.  Mr Maziya, I would just like you to tell us about the incident that took place in your life, where your lost your family, please, in your own words.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

YASMINE SOOKA: ... stand or sit, whichever is more comfortable for you.
SONG AND OPENING PRAYER

CHAIRPERSON: May you all be seated.  I would like to welcome you all to this second day of our human rights violations hearings specifically focusing on women's experiences of human rights violations between the years 1960 and 1994.  As it is the procedure within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, women are making statements today.  We sit here not as a victim finding panel, but all the statements will be processed, will be sent through to the Investigative Unit and we will corroborate whatever information, who will corroborate whatever information has been given before us.  The Research Department will look at the information as well and ultimately a decision will be made in a victim finding meeting.
 Today we have special submissions.  We have a submission from CALS which will be presented by Dr Sheila Meintjies and we have individual hearings of people talking about their own experiences of human rights violations and also we will have another submission which will give a different perspective of women's involvement in the struggle towards liberation of this country.  I would ask Dr Sheila Meintjies to come forward please. 
 If I may just say something about Sheila Meintjies besides being introduced as Dr Sheila Meintjies.  She is a lecturer at Wits University, but she is known and, to most of us as a person who is deeply involved and concerned about women's experiences.  She has been involved in different forums whereby she has made submissions on gender.  So she was one of the first people when we were appointed as a Commission, who made a submission to us highlighting women's specific experiences.  So we felt it will be appropriate to have her here to share with this audience and in support of witnesses to continue her agenda on women's issues.  So, welcome Sheila.

DR MEINTJIES: Thank you very much and thank you for this opportunity for us to address the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in this Women's Hearing.  We have already addressed the TRC in previous, in a previous session and what I am going to be doing in this, they want to turn us around.

CHAIRPERSON: They are trying to position the table in such a way that the media can access her while she is talking.  What might be helpful, most of you might have to move and sit over that side depending on where they ultimately.  I am sorry for the confusion, but I should think after this we will be better positioned.  Okay, I will ask Dr Sheila Meintjies to go ahead please.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indistinct) and (indistinct) separation of the (indistinct) I think that (indistinct), because I think that when we talk about gender power we (indistinct) and I think that (indistinct) bringing us (indistinct), because in cases where women have (indistinct) than (indistinct) they tend to control more and they tend to control their tempers better and they tend to blame (indistinct) their women who do not have any economic (indistinct) totally (indistinct).  So what I (indistinct) major issue, as far as you are concerned, it is very, very important and I would like to know what other aspects we should be looking at in order to bring gender relations to (indistinct) greater equality?  What do we mean by gender equality?

DR MEINTJIES: Well, I think we mean more than formal equality in terms of the Law.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.

DR MEINTJIES: Obviously ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, can I just come in.  I should think the point has been made.  We really appreciate your input.  Sheila we will just allow you to make one closing statement.

DR MEINTJIES: Well, I think that when we look, what this debate has brought up, I think, is the issue of how do we understand gender equality and I think that one of the statements about gender equality that would be important for us to turn to, to look for ways in which we can change South African women's inequality is the Women's Charter for effective equality which identifies 12 areas of life where they feel that they need life to be changed.  This is probably where the Gender Commission, itself, will take off from in order to start addressing the areas of women's disability, of women's subordination and domination in society.

CHAIRPERSON: Sheila, thank you very much.  We hope your structure will continue co-operating with the Commission.  Thank you for coming forward.

DR MEINTJIES: Thank you very much.  I would just like to say that we are very grateful to the Commission for listening with such an open mind to our suggestions and our criticisms and we would just like to say that we are very happy to co-operate with you and it may be useful for everybody here to know that the Gender Commission has invited us to workshop the writing of the TRC report next week.  Thank you very much.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Nomvula.  As I indicated that we will get hold of, as soon as we get hold of your submission we will look at it and if there are specific questions which we would like to ... before you leave in thanking you.  I just hope that, you know, you will continue highlighting the need for a gender debate even amongst women who are already in positions of power.  As we were preparing for these hearings we struggled a lot to get any women who is in a position of power to be part of the process.  They were all too busy, not available, which was sad, because we felt women who have been empowered, their main struggle is to make sure that sisters who sometimes do not have an opportunity even to come forward or who are not even accessible.
 There are many people who do not even know about the Commission who are in some areas in the rural areas or some, who for some reasons, are just not part of our every day communication.  So, for me that is a challenge for women like yourself.  You have committed yourself today and I really hope this agenda will be on top of your mind in all the structures that you belong to as you indicated to us.  We thank you very much for coming forward.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: In welcoming you I would just like to remind the audience that what you are going to talk about it also takes us back to what we have been talking about, the torture of women and many other experiences which, although have been experienced by men, but they tend to take a different perspective when it comes to women.  I will ask Joyce Seroke to assist you in taking the oath and also to facilitate your presentation.  Thank you.

MS SEROKE: Welcome, once more.  I will ask you to stand up and raise your right hand to repeat the oath.  Would you like to do the oath or the affirmation.

JOYCE SIKHAKHANE RANKEN: Affirmation.

MS SEROKE: Affirmation.  Stand up please.  With your hand raised.

JOYCE SIKHAKHANE RANKEN: (Duly sworn in, states).

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

JOYCE SIKHAKHANE RANKEN: Thank you.

MS SEROKE: Joyce, you have prepared a statement here or it is a submission and I would just like you to briefly go through that what you have given us now and share this with all of us.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-28

THANDI SHEZI: No, I realise that, I realise that that was the way I - the whole experience had reduced me into feeling I'm worthless and thinking that I am guilty of something. That was also the way that you used to break you down and make you feel humiliated and feel you're completely worthless.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you working now?

THANDI SHEZI: Yes, I am working.  I work as a field worker at the Kulumane Support Group.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is there anything you would like to add before we finish with you today?

THANDI SHEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming and sharing your pain and your suffering.  I think you are an example to other women, of how talking can in fact help to heal so that one can create a sense of self-worth about oneself.
 We're very happy to have heard your story today and we hope that we'll in fact be able to take forward the matter which you couldn't press charges against and actually enquire into why charges were not preferred against those men.
 Thank you for coming today, Thandi.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Lephina Zodwa Thobela to come forward please.  I will, in welcoming you, I will also ask Commissioner Yasmin Sooka to assist you in presenting your statement.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama Thobela, thank you for coming to the Commission.  Could you tell me which language you will feel comfortable speaking?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Zulu.

YASMINE SOOKA: Zulu.  Then will you place the earphones on your  head.  Mama, before you give evidence, can I ask you to stand so that you can take the oath please.

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: (Duly sworn in, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  You may be seated.  Mama, the Commission has received quite a number of statements on the men and boys, in fact, who died in the Duduza hand grenade incident, ...

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: ... but you, in fact, are coming to tell us about a story that we actually have not heard about your daughters who were, in fact, killed in this incident.  Please feel comfortable to share your story with us please.
Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: No, I have had peace and quiet and after the release of President Mandla they never came to harass me and when the exiles came back I was not harassed any further.  I am not afraid to point out that the police at Dunwater as well as Springs, they know as to who killed my children.  Maybe if you could start the investigation amongst them, Malulekas, as well as Fourie.  I would not like to mention the other ones, because I have no clarity or certainty as to how involved were they, if they were at all involved.

MS SEROKE: We thank you very much for having come forward with this very painful story.  As my colleagues have already mentioned, that the matter is still under investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much for having come before this Commission.  This is a heart wrenching story, because it has affected so many people, but we do believe that with time you will heal though your children will not be brought back from the dead.  As you rightly pointed out that it is quite disturbing that the people or the perpetrators were collaborating with the people that we trusted, that is our neighbours or fellow Comrades.  We do hope that even when you do get some evidence to the effect that these people that you know were involved in the deaths of your children, we do believe that you will find it in your heart to come to terms with whatever has happened and you can find it in your heart to forgive them, because these are the times during which we lived.  The Boers were using us to turn against each other.  So we hope that you find it in your heart to forgive them and come to terms with whatever has happened in the past.  We have been through difficult times.  We thank you very much for having come before this Commission.  We shall notify you in due course of any developments in the investigation.