Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Do you see paragraph 19 of Dr Immelman's affidavit, he says Dr Basson requested a baboon foetus.  He told me that the foetus of a primate was needed to I suppose obtain some kind of culture.  According to my note, I gave it to Koos.  If I had given it directly to Dr Basson, I would not have marked it with a K as you see is written on that document.
 According to my information, where I don't, and this is what I understand from his affidavit, where there is no initial written next to these murder items, then he delivered it directly to you.
 Firstly did you ever request him for a baboon foetus at the end of July 1989?

MR BASSON: Mr Chairperson, the extent of this question, he refers to it as murder items, there is no indication at this point that any of these objects or mixtures, were used for murder.
 There is also no indication that they would have been potential murder weapons, so I am asking Mr Vally to rephrase his question.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, and it is really a minor point right now, but we have canvassed this extensively even with Gen Knobel, for someone to put thallium in beer and we've got the quantities here, by the person who in fact produced these items, cyanide in peppermint chocolates as innocent an item as peppermint chocolates which children could possibly get hold of, and then to say these are not murder items.
 If Dr Basson is not aware of this list, why is he being so sensitive about me calling these murder items?

MR BASSON: I am as sensitive about it as Mr Vally would be as his private parts would be considered as rape instruments.  The fact that you can use this as murder, you can use it for rape, it does not mean it is a rape tool.

MR VALLY: So what would you use cyanide in peppermint chocolate for?

MR BASSON: Chairperson, I want to get back to the first question with regards to the baboon foetus.

MR VALLY: Alright, no, very well.

MR BASSON: Please Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, hang on.

MR BASSON: You have asked me regarding the baboon foetus.

MR VALLY: We will come back to that.  You cannot enter into a dialogue with me, we will come back to that.
 You took it to a certain point, and I am asking you this question.  What scientific reason would you have cyanide in peppermint chocolate?

MR BASSON: This morning I said that in the early 1980's we found an ANC cache, depot, and we confiscated several chemical substances, very basic chemical substances.
 Chemical substances which is very easily available, not from a specialist laboratory.  Cyanide, I can go and buy cyanide and I can find it in any laboratory in this country.  I could go to the University of Cape Town, and I could have taken it off the shelves, natrium cyanide.
 But the important thing is that these things were readily available to the people who were trained by the Russians, where the Russians did not want to make the sophisticated weaponry available, because people did not know how to work it, so in our case the Russians came to us and asked us to destroy the programme.
 They did not trust the ANC with this, and in this specific case we used these things to give training.  We had to push agents into the field to do infiltration, and to go and perform certain actions and on a practical manner, I had to teach and demonstrate to these agents the techniques which were available to be used against them.
 It is very simple, with one or two chocolates, I cannot commit a genocide.  I can't kill people or children with one or two chocolates, what I can do with one chocolate is, I can tell an agent listen to me, look what they can do to you, practical training.
 You go into a hotel, sleeping in a hotel.  What do you not do?  Don't eat the chocolate that is on the pillow, because it could be poisoned.  It is a very known approach.
 If you look at the Security community, you would find that they will tell you, they will tell you this is often done.  Who is going to eat the chocolate, it is the guy who is going to rent the room, not the cleaning lady and then in my training courses I explain to them what this chocolate looks like, what they must look for, and if they don't believe me and I will tell them, look does this chocolate look okay ...

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry Dr Basson, I don't want to fall in on your explanation, but are you really expecting this panel to believe that you manufactured these chocolates with cyanide for educational purposes of educating your troops about what not to do in a hotel room?

MR BASSON: Ms Sooka, yes, I do not expect you to believe it.  I expect you to believe the truth and I am telling the truth as I know it.
 The fact of the matter is if you look at the amounts which were made available, then we cannot talk about mass murder.  We cannot even talk about a single murder.
 Those things were used for a lot of things, for research as well as for training.  That is the correct and the true version.  If you have never been in a situation like that, then you are going to find it hard to believe.
 I do not know, I apologise I do not know your background, but I doubt whether you were ever in a situation ...

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, I don't need the political explanation, thank you.  I asked a very simple question.

MR BASSON: I am busy to answer the question Commissioner.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, I think I am satisfied.  Thank you.

MR BASSON: I am busy answering Mr Vally's question.  If you get into that position, you must be able to explain these kinds of things to your troops.
 I cannot tell you that that chocolate which was there, was used for this because I cannot link myself to this list.  I did not draw this list up, I do not know why he wrote the numbers down, or who wrote the numbers down.  I must accept, you say this is Dr Immelman's list, then I accept that.  I do not know that.

MR VALLY: Well, let's find out.  You say you don't know this list, but you confirm that the cyanide in the chocolate was one of your legitimate projects?

MR BASSON: I am not saying the cyanide in that chocolate, I am saying it was practical, it was common use to use some of these toxins in training.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of cyanide being put in peppermint chocolate as a training tool?

MR BASSON: I cannot tell you that cyanide was used, but I can tell you and this is a long time ago, that several toxins were used in training, in simulation situations.

MR VALLY: And why would 260 ml of cholera culture be produced?

MR BASSON: For several research institutions, and for people to use it for their own research, to make genetic determinations and also for several quality control people.
 In my own way I also had to make sure that what Roodeplaat was producing and that which they came up with, is correct.  So a lot of this was handed over to other people.

MR VALLY: So do you confirm that within your understanding of the projects undertaken at Roodeplaat, that there could have legitimately in terms of your instructions, or their mandate, have produced 200 or cultivated 260 ml of cholera?

MR BASSON: I do not know how much cholera was produced, I cannot remember.  I cannot remember, I have no evidence of how much was produced.  The fact that some cholera together with other organisms were produced, yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: Well, the person who cultured this, which is Dr Odendal, says he made 260 ml.  My question to you is simply you wouldn't see it is being outside the ambit of the project?

MR BASSON: As what being outside the ambit?

MR VALLY: The cultivation and production of 260 ml of cholera?

MR BASSON: I cannot say that 260 ml, but I can tell you that the production of several organisms including cholera was part of the duties.

MR VALLY: But I am talking specifically a large quantity of cholera culture, I am talking 260 ml?

MR BASSON: I repeat myself.  I cannot tell you how much cholera was produced.