Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-09

N D NTANZI: Yes, my younger brother.

ADV SIGODI: Is the one who died?

N D NTANZI: No, it was my eldest brother who died.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that your mother made a statement to the Magistrate, in which she said she asked you and Qwamez and Ngwenya to kill your brother Tulani because he was a nuisance at home?

N D NTANZI: That was incorrect.  There was war in the area between the ANC and IFP.  I do not know of that particular thing.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that she had made that statement, didn't you?  You know that she did.

N D NTANZI: I do not know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: But evidence was led about it at your trial.

N D NTANZI: I don't remember much from the trial because I was confused at the time, because I was even pleading not guilty in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't remember something like that from the trial?

N D NTANZI: I would not say whether it was led or not, but I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MAPOMA: You did make a statement to the police, is it so?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I did make a statement.

MR MAPOMA: And in that statement you said that you killed your brother because he was a nuisance, do you recall that?

N D NTANZI: I did say it but I meant that he was problematic to me because we differed on the issue of political allegiance.

MR MAPOMA: You said he was a nuisance because he used to attack your mother at some instances, did you not say that?

N D NTANZI: I did say that but he also traumatised and terrorised us as members of the IFP, which is why we decided on that action to kill him.

MR MAPOMA: And you also said that he was a political, do you recall that?

N D NTANZI: I do remember it.  I said this because I was in Court and I was trying to get myself acquitted, that is why I have actually appeared before this Committee, to actually tell the truth and make a full disclosure about what happened.

MR MAPOMA: How would it make you acquitted by saying he was a political?

N D NTANZI: I was protecting myself in Court.

MR MAPOMA: Are you not telling this Committee what you are telling the Committee now because you want to get amnesty, not because it is not true?

N D NTANZI: I am telling the honest truth because I deeply regret what I did, that is the killing of my brother, because he should have actually been my father because he was my eldest brother, but I did this because of the political situation in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could I come back for a moment. You said he made a statement to the police and he did say: "He was a nuisance because he attacked my mother", is this statement before us?

MR MAPOMA: Would the Chairperson just bear with me.  There is a statement on page 79 of the bundle of documents, of the typed version of the statement and the original of that statement is on page 78.

MR LAX: Sorry, are you referring to the passage that says
"My brother did not join any political party."
I think that may be something.  I can't read it properly but I think that may be something:
"A full member of Inkatha Freedom Party."
Is that what you are referring to?

MR MAPOMA: There are a number of statements that he made, Chairperson.  There is also another statement which appears on page 76, and I'm just trying to read this part where he said about the brother would attack the mother.  That part appears on page 86.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement where he said his brother was a nuisance and attacked his mother, was a statement in which he admitted killing his brother.
	Do you remember that, that you made a statement saying, and I think you should read the whole statement:
"My mother and I planned to kill my brother.  I killed my brother with four other men.  We fired shots at him.  We were using a shotgun.  He died instantly.  After he died we fled."
Do you remember saying that in the statement?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I did make such a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went on to say
"This happened on the 25th of September 1993 at Ezendopi Reserve, Eshowe.  We decided to kill him because he was a nuisance at home.  He assaulted my mother.  The other men, Nzameleni, Mhakauwe and Moosa, Nzameleni fired the shots with a shotgun.  My mother spoke to the other three men.  The deceased, Mfateseni was shot while he was asleep in his room."
Did you say that to the police?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I did say it.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, this statement was made to the Magistrate.  It appears to be the confession that was utilized in the judgment or it was part of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you.
	You said this to the Magistrate, do you remember that?

N D NTANZI: I do remember saying it but I did it because I had been assaulted by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: That is where you said that he was a nuisance and that he attacked your mother.

N D NTANZI: I was confused at the time because I was trying to protect myself, not to divulge the whole truth about what happened.  What I am saying here today is that we were protecting ourselves, because after his death there was peace in the area.

ADV SIGODI: How were you protecting yourselves if you admitted that you were part of the group that shot him, how could that have protected you?

N D NTANZI: We were protecting ourselves against the enemy who used to attack us, the unknown persons who used to come and attack us. After the death of my brother, there was peace in the area.

ADV SIGODI: So when you made this statement to the Magistrate, what were you protecting yourself from?

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

MR MAPOMA: When you made this statement to the Magistrate, admitting that you killed your brother on the instructions of your mother, how did you think that was going to protect you?

N D NTANZI: I was speaking just because I was ignorant and confused.  I had been assaulted by the police, they had actually stuck me in the mud and demanded that I tell the truth.
	What I mentioned there was incorrect, it was all a mistake, it was not true.  What I'm saying today is actually the truth.

ADV SIGODI: What truth did the police want from you?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

ADV SIGODI: I say, when you say that this is, you said this because you were beaten by the police because they wanted to hear the truth, what truth did the police want to hear from you?

N D NTANZI: They wanted to know who had killed my brother because at first I had not divulged who had killed my brother.

ADV SIGODI: And then when you said that you decided to kill him because he assaulted your mother, where did you get that from?

N D NTANZI: Those were lies because I was confused at the time.  I was just trying to protect myself, that in case I was released, that my comrades would not kill me because I would not have divulged any information about other people's names who had been involved.  But what is contained in this statement is not true, the truth is that we actually met at Luthuli's home and we decided to attack and kill my brother in trying to protect ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, it appears from the evidence at your trial, that your co-applicant testified that it was your suggestion that your brother should be shot.

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears from the judgment that there was evidence at the trial by Ngwenya that it was your suggestion that your brother should be shot because he was a member of the ANC.

N D NTANZI: That is true.

MR LAX: If I could just add this.  From the judgment at page 72, just below line 20, for the record's purposes, Ngwenya is recorded as saying the following by the presiding Judge.  He said prior to this night in question he had had discussions with accused number 1, that is yourself, who told him that he was being badly treated by his brother, the deceased, and that all his brothers, including the deceased was a member of the ANC.  ...(end of tape)