Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

JUDGE WILSON: I take it that there is a Sotho interpreter.  Will you please kindly now interpret the oath to the witness, will you stand please?

GODFREY MASUPA: (sworn states)

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I seem to have a bit of a problem here with this device.  Perhaps I could ask someone to help me.

JUDGE WILSON: Is there another microphone available or ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is there English translation on channel 2  Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Mr Masupa, can you hear me, is it comfortable?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I hear you Sir.

MR BLACK: Mr Masupa, where do you reside?  Where do you live?

MR MASUPA: I am staying at 1273, Daveyton.

MR BLACK: Could you please just speak slowly and pull the microphone closer to you.  Pull that - yes, pull it closer to you.  And during July of 1987, where were you living?

MR MASUPA: I was staying at 1273, Daveyton.

MR BLACK: Yes, please slowly Mr Masupa.  Now, whose house is that?

MR MASUPA: That is my parents' home, sir.

MR BLACK: And who was the owner of that house?  Was your father alive?

MR MASUPA: My father has since died, Sir.

MR BLACK: Yes, so who was the owner of the house at the time of this incident?

MR MASUPA: It was the house, it was belonging to Elinale Masupa.

MR BLACK: Elinale Masupa?  Now, could you just tell the court at that time were you working?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I was working at that time, Sir.

MR BLACK: What were you doing?

MR MASUPA: I was working at the battery company in Benoni.

MR BLACK: So you had nothing to do with the shopping complex which belonged to your grandfather?

MR MASUPA: No Sir, I was not working there and I had no interest in that company.

MR BLACK: Now, on the night of the 2nd of July 1987, you were watching television together with a number of other people, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: Who was all there?

MR MASUPA: I was with my mother who is Elinale, my
sister Christina Masupa, my other sister who visited us from Durban who was Melzinah, my other sister who was staying with him, who is Eunice and Catherine Nkosi.

MR BLACK: Is that Melzinah Mbatha?

MR MASUPA: Yes, that is Melzinah Mbatha.

MR BLACK: And Eunice Shabangu?

MR MASUPA: Yes, that is true, Sir.  Trevor Cindi, Catherine Nkosi, myself and Richard Mbatha and Mrs Mbatha who visited from Durban and other two children who were at the house at that time.

MR BLACK: Now these two little children, I understand from the court record, at that time the one was aged about one year old and the other was a few months old?

MR MASUPA: Yes, they were little children, Sir.

MR BLACK: Right, so you were watching television and then what happened next?

MR MASUPA: Whilst we were still watching TV, lights were switched off - half the lights were switched off.  Then we heard a knock at the kitchen door.

MR BLACK: Okay, can you just stop there please.  The lights switched off, what do you mean by that?  The lights, you say the lights were switched off, is that all the lights in the house or one room?

MR MASUPA: Yes, the whole house.

MR BLACK: So, how can people, where is your metre box or main switch situated?

MR MASUPA: The metre box is outside the house Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, I think to a large extend you could ask more leading questions and Mr Currin would object if he is, but to expedite proceedings - as long as you are not
objecting, you could proceed.

INTERPRETER: (The speaker's microphone is not on)

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Black, your microphone.

MR BLACK: The meter box is situated outside the house and this house consists of a four roomed house, which the same as all the other houses in that area, is that so?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: Right, and there are two entrances to this house?  There is the main, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: A plan of the house has been made available as part of the record which was made available yesterday and we have also heard this evidence from the previous witness.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Right, Mr Masupa, the door to the main entrance of the house, was that locked on that night?

MR MASUPA: Yes, it was locked.

MR BLACK: Now the kitchen door, that was unlocked?

MR MASUPA: It was not locked, Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay, right, while you're watching television all the lights go off.  The next, what happens next?

MR MASUPA: We heard a knock at the door.  My mother asked them who is knocking, then they said comrades, then they entered the house.

MR BLACK: Where was your mother then?

MR MASUPA: She was at the kitchen Sir.

MR BLACK: And where were you?

MR MASUPA: I was sitting at the dining room, Sir.

MR BLACK: Watching television?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay.  And did people enter the house or did you hear people enter the house?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I heard people coming inside the house Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Did you hear your mother saying who is that?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay, then what happened?

MR MASUPA: My mother said come in, then they said they
are comrades, then they entered the house, it was dark at the time.  Then they called saying Mantha, then they switched on the lights and switched off again.  Then Mantha went to the kitchen, then she said Vusi, what do you want?  Switch on the lights, let us talk.  During that time, she said we're smelling petrol.  
	Then after saying that, when I inhaled, went to the kitchen I saw a flame of fire.  When I met that flame, children were crying at that time, they said brother, we ask you for help.

MR BLACK: Where were the children?

MR MASUPA: I didn't see the children at that time, but I heard them just crying.  I was trying to break the burglar proofs so that I should help those who were inside.

MR BLACK: Okay, let's just slow down there please.  You went to, did you go to the kitchen?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I went to the kitchen.

MR BLACK: Right and you heard the crying.  Did you see who was in the kitchen?  Was Mantha in the kitchen?

MR MASUPA: Yes, Sir.

MR BLACK: Was your mother there?

MR MASUPA: My mother was in the kitchen also Sir.

MR BLACK: Did you see who else was in the kitchen?

MR MASUPA: I was not able to see other people were inside, Melzinah Mbatha and Eunice Shabangu ran to one of the bedrooms, that is where I heard their cry.  Then I went there to look for them inside the bedroom so that I would be able to help them there.  At that time the door was closed, we were not able to go out.

MR BLACK: Which door are you talking about?

MR MASUPA: The kitchen door, Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay, and the other door was locked?

MR MASUPA: Yes, it was locked, Sir.

MR BLACK: Right, then you said you tried to break the burglar proofs, or what?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: What did you do?

MR MASUPA: I tried to break the burglar proofs and I was burning, then I tried to drag the wardrobe.  Luckily the wardrobe helped us to be alive and those children were burnt at that time, that is  Melzinah Mbatha and Eunice Shabangu.

MR CURRIN: Sorry Mr Chairman.  The evidence in the record regarding what they did in the house in the bedroom to help to get the children out, we are not contesting any of that evidence.  So to the extend that it is going to be repeated, I would just like to record that we are not contesting any of that evidence.

MR BLACK: May I proceed Mr Chairman?  Right, you tried to - did you try and get the children out?

MR MASUPA: Yes, that is Melzinah Mbatha and Eunice Shabangu.

MR BLACK: Yes, and they died on the scene, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: After we were able to open the door, we ran to the police station to look for help.

MR BLACK: Just hold on please.  You saw flames, what did you do?

MR MASUPA: I tried to break the burglar proofs.

MR BLACK: Yes, and then what?

MR MASUPA: I was unable to do that because they were hot then.  I was able to make the wardrobe fall down, then it was able to die off the fire.

MR BLACK: What did you do then?