Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR NODADA: Roughly how many were those people?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I would estimate at about ten.

MR NODADA: About ten.  Did you know any of them?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I knew none of them.

MR NODADA: Had you been to that auditorium before or was that your first time to set your foot inside that building?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That was my first day to enter that auditorium that's the day this happened.

MR NODADA: That is his evidence Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA

MR NTONGA: Mr Pama are you in a position to face the Commission or do you want some time to get some composure, I won't like to put questions at your state?  Do want some time?

UNKNOWN: If you need some time Mr Pama, we're quite happy to give you a few minutes to compose yourself and take it easy, it's not a problem with us.  Would you like that?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: (s.u.o.)

MR NTONGA: (continues)
	  Mr Pama, I'm sorry that I have to take you back to that day when you experienced that experience that had led you to tears but unfortunately I have to do so.
	Let's start about the number of the people and at the auditorium room - were they three or four?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: There were three or four.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying that you could not notice whether they were armed or not armed?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We tried to notice I'm sure we could not notice anything except the paper that I said one of them was carrying.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that you looked at them and you didn't see any weapons you just saw one of them carrying a newspaper?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes I looked at them.

MR NTONGA: And if one of them was carrying arms openly and ...[inaudible] you could have seen that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: If they were carrying arms with their hands I would have noticed but if they hid them behind their clothes certainly I would not have seen them.

MR NTONGA: Okay and you said these ...[inaudible] entered this room and hid behind a pillar?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And you say that the shooting started from around the pillar without any warning?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: As they were hiding behind the pillar he appeared to Mr Mankumba and he shot at him.  I tried also to hide behind a pillar and he shot at me.

MR NTONGA: At that time what was Mr Mankumba, the security doing when he was shot by one of these men?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: As we were asking from him what is happening wherever at the process of registration he was next to me.

MR NTONGA: I assume that he was talking to you, standing up talking to you, trying to explain whatever you're asking from him?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so, we were talking, all of us.

MR NTONGA: How many were you there while you were talking with this Mr Mankumba?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was me, Sergeant Mkizwayo, Sergeant Klokozile and another gentleman who was a security man who I do not know.

MR NTONGA: So you were five in all?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so except the others who were around there that I thought may be some of the workers of the university.

MR NTONGA: And after the first shot which hit the security guard you say that you tried to take out your own firearm but you were shot by the same person?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And thereafter you lost consciousness and don't know what happened until you regained it?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: At the time you regained your consciousness, where were these three or four men?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: At that time I only saw one, the one who was carrying this bag, I could not see others where they were.

MR NTONGA: Well I be correct to assume that you did not see the second policeman being shot or injured?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The second policeman, when he was shot, I could not see him, I did not see that.

MR NTONGA: At the time you regained consciousness he was already injured or shot at?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It is true, he was already injured - shot.

MR NTONGA: I see.
ADV. SANDI: Sorry Mr Ntonga the second policeman you're talking about is that Mr Mkizwayo?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It is a Mr Mkizwayo, the one who was shot at.

MR NTONGA: I see.  As far as this attack at the UNITRA auditorium, that's all you know about it - what you have said to the Commission now?  Or let's put it the other way around - is that all you saw that day.  The entering of the three people or four, hiding behind a pillar and shooting at you and you lost consciousness?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That's all I can remember.

MR NTONGA: You remember telling the Commission that on the steps there was a gentleman and a girl, steps leading to the auditorium?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: A man and a lady yes.  I did not say they were going up, I said they were sitting down.

MR NTONGA: Yes on the steps leading to the auditorium, that's what I'm trying to say.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: Do you know the gentleman and the lady?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I did not know them because that was the first time that I went there, I did not know the people who were there.

MR NTONGA: Okay, the gentleman who sat there made a statement which is part of this record 25, the bound record.  His name is Atta Kwadiso.  I refer his statement, Mr Pama, because in his statement, page 25 the third paragraph, he said that he saw a man with two guns going up those steps ordering him to lie down, two firearms on his hand.  You see that?  Do you have any comments on that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I cannot comment because I did not see any guns in his hands, that's what he says.

MR NTONGA: On page 26, the same statement paragraph four, this man says that the security officer who was under cover all the time, he was trying to jump over the chairs for safer cover when he was shot.  That is the first man to be shot and was shot fatally.  He was coming from one cover to another cover which were a safer cover when he was shot.  Do you have any comments on that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It may be that he fell, I did not know that he ran because the person who appeared did not say anything he simply shot.  That he tried to run away, I do not know that.

MR NTONGA: No you are missing the point, the first person to be shot and who was fatally shot was the UNITRA security guard, isn't that so?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I said that is so, I said that from the beginning that he was the first person who was shot.

MR NTONGA: And in accordance with your evidence he was shot whilst talking to you when you are trying to get some directions about the money, taking over duty, isn't that so?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so as we were talking this person simply shot at us.

MR NTONGA: Fine.  I'm asking your comment about what had been said in this paragraph that he was actually coming out of cover to get a safer cover and he was shot, jumping over chairs?
ADV. GCABASHE: You're looking at paragraph four I presume?  It was when they reappeared carrying guns, I'm not sure that your interpretation of that is correct.  The sequence may be different.  When they reappeared - they appeared which tallies with what the witness is saying and a shooting took place - they went in, took the bags and then this other security guard did something else unless I understand the context of that?

CHAIRPERSON: I agree and don't you think you should read the last sentence in paragraph two?  At the door he fired two shots whilst entering.  Doesn't that accord with this witnesses version?  Two shots were fired, he became unconscious.