Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And they told you there is work because we are going to take over and we are going to found this Wesbou and you are going to have a job to protect and secure the towns on the West Rand.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Not West Rand, West Transvaal.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: West Transvaal I am sorry.  So as a result of those promises you were prepared to go back and fetch your wife and to then further take part in the struggle, is that correct.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were positioned or posted to the game farm, can you remember which day?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: The 22nd I arrived at Ventersdorp, after that we went to Cliff Barnard's farm and that same day the big group who was there together with them we left for Ottosdal and from there the men went to the game farm.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Which day was that, you went to Pretoria on the Monday?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: The Friday the morning I arrived at the head office in Ventersdorp and the Friday afternoon the big group which was at Clifton Barnard's farm left for  Ottosdal to another farm which was more appropriate or more fit for the women.  That is the conclusion I made.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Which day did you arrive at the game farm? Was it the Saturday?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: It was the Saturday morning very early.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you stood guard - let me put it this way, did you know the members of the Generals in staff?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I knew some of them Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: On the Saturday or the Sunday were there any members of the Generals in staff at the game farm?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes amongst others I saw General Nico Prinsloo there and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe was also there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Were they there all the time or did they move back and forth from this place?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I didn't see them all the time. I know at one stage Brigadier Leon van der Merwe was there with a motor cycle and then he left and the motor bike was tied to the back of the pick-up. I don't think they were there the whole time.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Very well, the Sunday evening when this meeting was called and Koper Myburgh demonstrated the pipe bombs to you, were you there?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes I was there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was a request then made to people who had vehicles?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes, they were looking for drivers with their own cars.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And who asked this, was this Jannie du Plessis?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Commandant Johan du Plessis.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did he ask for drivers or did he appoint drivers?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I am not sure now, I think he asked for drivers.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did he say I am looking for four drivers?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: With vehicles?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And how is it that you then got together with Jaco Nel, you and Gert Fourie?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Gert Fourie I do not know about but I know Jaco asked me if I would accompany him and I conceded to that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And Gert Fourie, how was it that he joined you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: It was only me and Jaco Nel and a while afterwards, from what I could tell Gert Fourie was doing guard duty and then I do not know if he arrived there afterwards, but they asked him if he also wants to accompany us.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So he was asked to join you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You say Jaco Nel asked you if you would go with him.  Was that an instruction or a request?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: In my eyes it was an instruction. If such a person ask you that kind of a question in such a situation then you would see it as an instruction.

ADV GCABASHE: But du Plessis did not instruct you or ask you to go with Nel did he?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: No, du Plessis did not give me an instruction directly.

ADV GCABASHE: Now when Nel asked you was this in du Plessis' presence or were you on your own at that stage?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I am not sure, du Plessis was in the vicinity but I do not know if he heard him asking me that or if he knew about it.

ADV GCABASHE: Now in those circumstances who was your commanding officer?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: The commanding officer of operations was Commandant "Duppie" du Plessis.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet you took an instruction as you term it or understood it from Nel?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.  What I understood about the grouping there was that the drivers had to find themselves two people to join them and he approached me and I told him I would go with him.

ADV GCABASHE: So it was at the driver's discretion to pick the people he thought should accompany him on a mission?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I would assume that yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Steyn who said that the drivers must find people to accompany them?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Chairperson, I am not hundred percent sure but if I must say I will say that instruction came specifically from Johan du Plessis.

ADV BOSMAN: Let me put it this way, you say you are not quite sure.  Who was in charge of this grouping?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: It was Johan du Plessis.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You went to Pretoria would you agree with me that the events on Monday in Pretoria the way you describe it is not exactly the same as what Jaco Nel said, would you agree with that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Would you please repeat?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That what happened on the Monday in Pretoria and the way you described it to the Committee it is not the same how Jaco Nel described it, would you agree with that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now both versions cannot be the truth, would you agree with that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: No it cannot both be true.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So one of you took the Committee into your trust, either you or Jaco Nel.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I cannot confirm that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words which one of you are speaking the truth you or Jaco Nel between the two of you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I took an oath saying that I will tell the truth and according to me what I am telling you is the truth.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: .

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir talking about the way you ultimately found yourself going to Pretoria or being part of the Pretorian mission it is not your evidence that "Duppie" Johan du Plessis ever asked you to be party to any mission correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: As far as I can remember no.

MR MOTLAUNG: And to the extent that Jaco Nel asked you to accompany him and you say that you agreed to go along, Did you
agree to go along because you viewed him as your senior or because he was one of the drivers that asked you to accompany him?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Chairperson, I went because he was one of my seniors.

MR MOTLAUNG: When you were now on the mission in Pretoria, was there a commander among the three of you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I do not understand the question.

MR MOTLAUNG: Who was the leader of the mission?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: If I must use my own discretion then I would say this is the way we were trained, it would have been Jaco Nel.

MR MOTLAUNG: Understand look apparently it is a conclusion or an inference that you are now making. I am trying to understand at the time when you went on the mission, is that how you understood it that Jaco Nel was the leader, is that how everybody understood it amongst the three of you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: If a decision had be taken amongst the three of you who could have made that decision?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Definitely Jaco Nel Chairperson.