Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did not have contact with the persons from the CCB anymore, so I simply did what came naturally and denied everything, because the only guideline that was given to me regarding the attitude of the organisation was that Joe Verster was in the hotel room, in the Braamfontein Protea Hotel, when he showed me what his attitude was.  He pointed with his finger to the section of the page that stated that he denied everything regarding the Webster incident.  So at all relevant times, I was under the impression that the CCB would deny everything regarding Webster.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were asked whether you had cleared your use of Mr Calla Botha to help you with the murder of Dr Webster, from what had gone on before, did you think that anyone would have any objection to your using Mr Calla Botha for the purpose which you did?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I didn't really think about it in that way, the man was also a member of the organisation and I assumed that they did the same work that we did and I wanted to take someone with me who I could trust.  I didn't think that there would be an objection, but I didn't go ahead and volunteer the information as such.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it only yourself that you wanted to protect by not disclosing that you had killed Webster, or did your close relationship with Mr Botha influence you in any way?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The fact remains that I wanted to protect Calla Botha at all costs.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were also cross-examined as to your weapon of choice in order to kill Dr Webster and that you used your own shotgun which you modified in relation to length, in the manner in which you described.  What number pellets did you use for the killing of Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot recall anymore today, it was either SG or SSG.

GEORGE BIZOS: Those are heavy duty pellets, there are between 16 and 18 in the package are there not?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And at close range there are as lethal as any bullet.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I would say that it would be more effective than a bullet.  If one shot someone from close enough it would have the effect of firing six or eight shots with a 9mm at a person, because the pellets in the casement were almost as big as the size of a 9mm bullet head.

GEORGE BIZOS: And is a shotgun an advantageous weapon from the point of view of detection, as compared to bullets?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I don't really understand.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can forensic experts ...(intervention)

FERDINAND BARNARD: Are you referring to the ballistics?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

FERDINAND BARNARD: One would not be able to connect ballistically if a shotgun was used, it's much more beneficial to use that sort of firearm than using a handgun or a hand firearm or any other type of gun.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, the pellets, be they in the body of the deceased or on the motor car or in the near vicinity, could never be connected with any particular shotgun.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Unlike the other firearms that assassins use.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that one of the reason why you chose a shotgun, or not?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, the reason why I used it was because I would be firing at close range and I wanted one shot to go off, not a variety of shots.  If it had to take place during the day or something like that, the sound of the single shot would be the same as a car backfiring.  And there was no opposition from Mr Verster and the others when I suggested that I wanted to use a shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.
	Did you use both barrels simultaneously?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I only fired one shot.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to now turn to your instructions to Mr van Zyl, in relation to Mr Omar's attempted murder.  Now you're aware that Mr van Zyl says that you received instructions only to monitor Mr Omar, what is your categorical answer in relation to that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It is false.  My express instruction from the very first moment when I went to discuss the incident with Mr van Zyl, I knew without any doubt that I was being tasked to murder Mr Omar, not to monitor him but to murder him.  I was told that there were gangsters and other people in the Cape who were not performing.  This is before I left Johannesburg to go to Cape Town, the information was already known to me.  So from the very first day that I was approached I knew that I would be responsible for the killing of Adv Omar.  There was absolutely no doubt in my mind about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: When were you given the weapon?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I was instructed to fly to Cape Town, which I did, I booked into the hotel there.  Mr van Zyl joined me at a certain point.  There was a meeting with Peaches Gordon and there was another meeting which was arranged for later in the evening, where all three of us were present.  It was me, Peaches Gordon and Mr van Zyl.  And upon this occasion Peaches Gordon took out a flat box which looked like a chocolate box and he gave the firearm to me, in the presence of Mr Slang van Zyl.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did that firearm come out of the possession of Peaches?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It came from the possession of Peaches and upon Slang van Zyl's instruction he handed it over to me in the presence of Slang van Zyl.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the make of the firearm that you were given and what peculiarities did it have?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was a Makarov pistol, a Russian manufactured Makarov with a silencer.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you are absolutely certain that it came from Peaches' possession?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I have no doubt about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You heard the evidence of Mr van Zyl, that the Makarov that he had given Peaches was left with Peaches with instructions that he, Peaches, should destroy it, what do you say about that evidence?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The last time I spoke to Slang van Zyl at the Woodstock Holiday Inn, he told me that, or I told him that I didn't want to shoot because there was a woman with Adv Omar, and I told him that I wasn't prepared to continue on this basis, that it was like playing Russian roulette, hanging around there all the time in a stolen vehicle day after day, in a place where I stuck out like a sore thumb, and until there was specific pinpointed information regarding a meeting with Mr Omar, or any place where Mr Omar would be, I was not prepared to continue with the operation.  At that point I handed back the weapon with the silencer that I had in my possession, to Mr van Zyl.  I don't know what he did with it, but I really cannot imagine that Mr van Zyl would have given it back to Peaches Gordon to destroy, because that wouldn't make any sense.  I cannot understand why he says that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you must also take it into the context of Mr van Zyl's evidence, who denies that he ever gave you the gun or that he instructed you to kill Adv Omar, at any stage.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, his evidence was when it came to the allegation that I had the Makarov with the silencer and Brenda Mills' allegation, Mr van Zyl said the Lord only knows, but it isn't only the Lord that knows, Mr van Zyl and I know where I go the Makarov from.

GEORGE BIZOS: When we were here during the June/July hearing, did you have friendly discussions with Mr van Zyl, in and around the hearing room or did he visit you during the adjournments where you kept apart by your guards?