Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Biko, paragraph 9 of your affidavit:
"In consequence of and in pursuit of the above-stated objective, during, on or about the 6th of September I commanded a unit that received an order from a member of APLA, Tamsanqa Duma to kill and repossess weapons from the house of Mr Franciscato in Alice Street, Fort Beaufort".
Can you tell the Committee in detail when you were given this order by Mr Duma and tell the Committee who is Mr Duma.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I can do that.  Can I continue?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I moved from Transkei.  I was handed over to Tamsanqa Duma by Mbulelo Dlamini ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Mr ...

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I was handed to Tamsanqa Duma.  I went there for some operations.

ADV SANDI: What operations were you supposed to carry out?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: To shoot the white people, the Boers.

ADV SANDI: Those instructions came from Mbulelo Dlamini?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, as a trained APLA soldier that was what I was supposed to do.  I was trained to do that.  I was handed over to Tamsanqa Duma.  There was a place that I knew there at Fort Beaufort because I was also a resident there.  I used to know the place of Mr Franciscato.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Tamsanqa Duma gave me three days to do the reconnaissance and to check on the target, and then he also instructed me to carry on with the operation on the third day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell, Mr Biko, what Mr Duma told you to do when he said carry on with the operation.  Can you also tell the Committee who this Tamsanqa Duma was?  What was he, that is the position of Tamsanqa Duma.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Tamsanqa Duma was my commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, proceed.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I went to reconnoitre the target, the place and check the target for two days.  On the third day I was given an order to go and attack the target.  There were other comrades that I was going to meet with from Zukile, three comrades.  I was going to meet with them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what your purpose was of attacking the target.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: My aim to attack the target was because the order was for me to possess the arms and kill the person.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee how you met the other two.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: The other two I met them at Zukile's place.  There were three of them waiting for me at Zukile's place as the instruction that I got.  The three of them, the people who were waiting for me, it was Winile Veveza, Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Mogeti.
	I called Mogeti aside and I told him to go back.  I continued with Winile Veveza and Mzuamadoda, Yengeni to town and when we arrived in town I told them that we were there for the operation at Mr Franciscato's house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, what happened on your arrival?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: When we arrived there we got inside the yard.  Mzuamadoda waited outside the yard.  Myself and Winile went inside and I knocked the door and Mr Franciscato came and opened the door and I asked him whether Joyce was working there and then he said "no".  When he said "no" I kicked him and he fell.  He fell down and I pointed him with a gun.
	I demanded the firearms and then he told me where his firearms were and he showed me the place.  They were under the bed and the others were inside the trunk.  He took out three pistols and one to 202 was under the bed, was in the bed, in his bed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What other weapons did you find with the exception of the 202 you are referring to?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: The three sting shooters and two .2 and one 2.2 and one rifle.  That's all.  There were four firearms only.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what weapon were you armed with when you went there?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I was armed with a 38 special, 18 shooter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The other two?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: They were armed with pangas.  The other two task force were armed with pangas, task force members.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did they also do in the house after you have entered yourself?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I instructed them to ensure that there were no other arms inside Mr Franciscato's room.  I took Mr Franciscato in one of the rooms that was next to the kitchen.  I told him to told him to close his eyes because I was about to run.  I shot in the head.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then what happened thereafter?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I asked them if there was anything that they got in the house.  They said: "No, there was nothing".  We left the house and went to the township.
	When we arrived at the river I searched them to make sure that there was nothing else hidden on their bodies.  I wanted to be sure that they didn't take anything else in the house because I didn't want them to do things that I did not instruct them to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think it necessary to take that precaution?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: According to the instruction and as a commander of that operation, my sub-ordinates, I was supposed to search my sub-ordinates to ensure that they did not take anything like money.
	If the order was to take money and firearms, we are supposed to do exactly per order.  We are not supposed to take anything, therefore it was necessary to do that, to make sure that they didn't take anything from the house.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but these were your comrades, did you not trust them?  What was the problem, why did you have to go to the extent of searching them?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: According to the instruction I was doing that because I was instructed to do so.  Each and every force - if I am a commander of that unit, I'm carrying out an operation, I'm supposed to ask them if they did not do anything that I did not instruct them and I'm supposed to search them again so that I can report fully to my commander and be sure that they did not take anything, they did not do anything that they were not instructed to do.  That is why it was necessary for me to search them.

ADV SANDI: Would one be correct to infer from what you've said that your comrades were the type of people who would simply grab for themselves whenever operations of this nature are carried out?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, they were not supposed to do that if they're instructed but if they are following the rules of the PAC they would not do that.  But it is a rule for me to make sure that they did not take anything that they were not instructed.  It is not that I didn't trust them.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Then tell the Committee, after your search what happened?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: After searching them I left with them to the township.  We went to Zukile's Biko's house at Gunti(?).  I left them there and I continued to Duma and I surrendered the arms that were found in Mr Franciscato and I told him everything about the operation and I told him that I kicked him and he fell and I point him with a gun and I told him that I wanted guns, then he gave me the guns.
	I also told him that I put him in one of the rooms and I shot him and he died.  And he asked me if we were not chased after the mission and I told that nothing of that nature happened.  And then he asked me the whereabouts of the other comrades and I told him that I left them at Gunti where I found them before.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Biko, you seem to be going too fast, it's very hard for me to pick up all the names you mentioned.  Who is this person you say you were giving some kind of a report as to what had happened, who were you talking to?  Zukile?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, Tamsanqa Duma who was my commander.