Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

VINCENT KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I said to you our aim was to attack the comrades who were killing us.  Together with the community of Boipatong, which community supported this comrades, which means that the things that were done by the comrades, were accepted by the community.  They regarded the comrades who were killing us and burning us, as heroes.
	Therefore those people were the people we were aiming to avenge against.  With reference to children, I said to you they were caught in the cross fire.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, would this be an appropriate time to take the short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment and come back at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

VINCENT KHANYILE: (still under oath)

MR BERGER: (cont)
	Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, as far as the map of Boipatong is concerned, and the houses that I put to Mr Khanyile...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to that which we have here?

MR BERGER: I am referring to Exhibit J, yes.  My learned friend's map and mine, are in fact the same and we are agreed that in the vicinity of the shops, there were no houses damaged to the left of Leqwa Street.
	We are agreed on that now.  My learned friend thought I was referring to a different area.

CHAIRPERSON: At one stage you put to Mr Khanyile that only two houses were damaged along Amatolo  Street, whereas according to the map, Exhibit J, there appears to be four.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I was referring to that part of Amatolo Street to the left of Leqwa Street, being the route that Mr Khanyile would have followed out of Boipatong.
	There is one house on the corner of Leqwa and Amatolo and there is one right at the end of Amatolo, towards Thembu Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, given what we know about the attack, can you put forward any political objective of the IFP which would have been satisfied by this attack?

VINCENT KHANYILE: My understanding, it was an avenge for the killing of the IFP members and I think this is the point which it is politically motivated, the other political gain is after that attack, the killings of IFP members have extremely decreased.
	As I am speaking today here, IFP members Vaal, they are free to walk wherever they want to go.

MR BERGER: Revenge as you have said many times, was your reason for the attack and you say that was the reason given by Mr Damara Qonqo, when he said today is the day to take revenge.
	That was not a political objective of the IFP and so I ask you again, what political objective of the IFP were you pursuing when you attacked Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, can we really take it further than what the witness has told us as to what the political objective he thought they were going to achieve by the attack?

MR BERGER: Perhaps I could put this then Chairperson.  The leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party, Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi said the following after the attack:  He said, such brutality shocks the sensibility of even the most brutal people.  It leaves civilised mankind stunned at the viciousness of man.  My deepest sympathy goes out to all relatives and loved ones of those who died so hideously at the hands of brutal men.
	He also offered his and the IFP's and I quote "fullest support for any enquiry into the mindless killings of innocent people that took place".
	At the time of the attack, the leader of the IFP and the IFP condemned this attack absolutely and said that it was the mindless killing of innocent people.
	At no stage since that condemnation, has the IFP retracted it or taken responsibility for this attack.  What I want to suggest to you Mr Khanyile, is that the political aims of the IFP were not furthered by this attack, nor was the attacked sanctioned by the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, do you understand what the question is?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I did understand part of the question, but I didn't get the full understanding because it is a long statement.
	What I understood was the statement given by Chief Gatsha Buthelezi, my answer to that question I would say to Mr Berger, you know politics.  Chief Buthelezi's answer was also a political answer.  To explain further, even the top rank leadership of the ANC did read the statement about the Boipatong issue, they were not present, they didn't know what happened, so I would say that is how the politic game is.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, my question is really this.  Other political parties for example the PAC took responsibility for the actions of their members.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't want to intervene, but having dealt with a lot of these matters, it wasn't always the case where the leadership, the political leadership were aware of these matters.
	Certainly at some later stage, responsibility was or was not accepted, depended on the situation.  Unless my learned friend has some basis upon which he can make the statement, I don't think it is fair that it is put on that to him that other political parties accepted responsibility for such acts, therefore ...

MR BERGER: I don't know if I articulated it or if it was just in my head, but the point that I was making was that other political parties at other times, either at the time of the commission of the offence, or subsequently, took responsibility for the actions of their members.

CHAIRPERSON: But what does that have to do with Khanyile?  What you should put to Mr Khanyile is the question, if you are suggesting to Mr Khanyile that at no stage did the IFP, on whose behalf he states that he was acting at the time, did it take responsibility for their actions.  That is the question you should put to him, which is a more direct question.

MR BERGER: I will do that Chairperson.  Mr Khanyile, you have heard the question, I will repeat it to you.
	At no stage  since Chief Gatsha Buthelezi made the statement condemning the mindless killing of innocent people, at no stage from then until now, has the IFP taken responsibility for your actions and what I want to suggest to you is the reason for that, is that your actions were in no way designed to further the political objectives of the IFP.

VINCENT KHANYILE: I think Mr Berger, taking into account that many people have died for nothing, I have never heard that any particular organisation have accepted that it is their own people who killed people.
	All that I normally hear is this political comments which I have just explained to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should just respond directly to the question Mr Khanyile.  You see, you have told us that in engaging in the conduct in which you yourself and your co-applicants engaged in on the day in question, you were furthering the political objectives of the IFP.
	You have described what those objectives were.  Do you understand so far?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is not being put to you is this, the leader of the IFP condemned the attack on Boipatong.  Do you understand so far?  And what is being put to you therefore is that that condemnation, suggests that you were not furthering the aims of the IFP.  What is your answer?

VINCENT KHANYILE: As I have explained yesterday, that politics to us, the black people, came in a different fashion.  I personally, even if I don't know the constitution of the organisation or its provisions, all that I knew is that all that we were doing, we were doing it as an avenge and also bearing in mind that an organisation might benefit from it.

MR BERGER: Isn't the truth Mr Khanyile, that the attack was ordered by Mr Themba Khosa as part of his reign of terror in the Vaal and as part of his - the only word that I can use is -  Chiefdom if you know what I mean.

INTERPRETER: We don't know what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: You should explain it to him, so that he can understand the question.