Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Yes, Chairperson, true Chairperson, if one would argue in proportionality in relation to what?  I think, Chairperson, I always argue and I'll argue even now, I think that's one incident where Mr Kgotlhe put it correctly that after the train massacres and everything they had to do something which will have an impact on the White community and they identified the old age home, but before he executed that, he had to sought an approval which of course was going to be a major thing and he told the Committee that in that incident he had to meet the Director of Operations and seek an approval from him to carry that operation and that approval was given.  Now it's always my argument, Chairperson, that proportionality should be made, should be applied to policy makers.  The people who are carrying out instructions should not suffer because the policy makers were not involved in the actual execution of the operation.  Chairperson, I think Mr Kgotlhe, inasmuch as one would argue about the old age home, I think he has put it, though not much eloquently as I think he would, that before those people, most of them, the old age home, were the same policy makers, were the same oppressors, were benefiting from the oppression.  Before they were in that age, what were they doing?  They did not grow old overnight.  Some of them were involved in the policy making which is with regard to apartheid, oppressing the African people.  Just on that, Chairperson, I would like, though it's not that much relevant to this, it does not reflect to the old people, I would like from the mouthpiece of the Apla Azanian Combat quote one submission of one South African academic, a White academic, Gerrie van Staden, and I would like to quote that, Chairperson
"While he could not have articulated his position any better, PAC Secretary Bennie Alexander was quite right to suggest it was necessary for more White South Africans to die if the problem of political violence is to receive the attention it demands."
this is what is written by Gerrie van Staden:
"While I remain aware that the context, the next victim could be me or worse, my wife or child, we need to be logical and not emotional in addressing the issue of political violence.  Despite their protestation, most White South Africans and secondly the security forces and the government do not respond to that of Black victims with nearly as much passion as followed the King Williamstown killing.  To dismiss the thousands this year alone of township deaths as mere Black on Black violence is callous in the extreme and morally reprehensible.  Only when all South Africa responds with deeply referred outrage and anger at each and every death, only when the media begin to print the details of each and every death with the same depth as accorded to King Williamstown ...(indistinct), will the message begin to penetrate that we ordinary South Africans of all races gave no one right to murder in our name."
Chairperson, this was a shortened version of what was said by Gerrie van Staden.  If my memory serves well he was addressing PAC in Harare on this incident, where exactly PAC he told them that inasmuch as he admired the Apla in attacking the security forces, but they have to hit where it mattered most, that the White community, counting himself also, that they live peacefully, there are no threats.  He even mentioned that even if you can put a bomb there, without making it to detonate, but you put it there, that would drive fear to the White community, they would know that they are not safe, they would know that the apartheid is evil.  Chairperson, if that can come from one of the White members, it shows what type of a sick society South Africa was living in.  That of course did not say that only White, when you are referring to Whites it's only ordinary Whites which is middle aged or others, not necessary referring to the old people, the senior citizens of this country.  I don't know Chairperson, whether I've tried to address your point on proportionality but my basic argument is that proportionality should be applied to the policy makers.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
	We have come to the end of the evidence and the arguments and submissions.  We will take time to formulate a decision and we will communicate our decision to all the relevant parties once it is available.  We will accordingly reserve our decision and we will adjourn the proceedings for today.  We have reached the end of the matters that were enrolled for today.  We will recommence the proceedings on Wednesday, 28th April 1999, in this venue at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we are able to start. 
	It just remains for me to thank Mr Mbandazyo and Ms Patel and Mrs Pienaar for your participation and for the assistance that you had given to us in understanding the matter and assisting us in coming to a decision.  We will adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS