Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: How is it that you agreed to go and rob the bottle store without a reconnaissance exercise, when in fact the idea of robbing another bank was rejected because of that reason?

LUCKY SITHOLE: From my knowledge of bottle stores and shops in general, it is easy to undermine the security that would be there, also for the reason that the situation was urgent, we needed to acquire those arms from Mozambique quickly, back into KWaZulu Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Immediately before you robbed the people of their kombi, you must have had an idea as to how you were going to take it to Antonio, not so?  That is the reason you went to rob them of the kombi, because that was the alternative mode of payment?  Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you going to drive it to Antonio or how were you going to get it to him?

LUCKY SITHOLE: As I mentioned, I was driving that kombi, because when we left Stanger, I was on my way to Mozambique already.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was it necessary then to go and rob the bottle store, you were on your way with the mode of payment, together with R3,000 to Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Perhaps you did not understand me.  After the robbery at the bottle store, I was on my way to Mozambique, and I left Temba and the other person along the way, so that they could collect the other vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go to Mozambique straight after the Mike's Kitchen incident, because now you had your alternative mode of payment, in the form of a kombi, in addition you had R3,000?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is true, however R3,000 would not have been enough to pay for petrol expenses.

CHAIRPERSON: You had R3,000?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I was still explaining that that amount would not be able to take a vehicle to Mozambique as well as transport firearms from Mozambique into South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I do not see how it would enable one to do that, because firstly I did not know how much transport cost would be from Mozambique into South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now, be that as it may.   How long after this incident were you arrested?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I was arrested on the same day, when I was in Greytown, just cooling the kombi off.  I realised that the police had been notified in advance.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the R3,000?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That money was inside my bag, together with my travelling document.  I believe that it was the money that was confiscated by the police, alleging that it had been robbed from Stanger.  However, that amount had been robbed from Mike's Kitchen, and it belonged to the owners of the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: I have to ask you this question, from what you tell me now, it seems that you were at the kombi letting it cool down, when you were arrested?  Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I was not inside the kombi, I had just parked it outside the city in Greytown.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you in relation to that kombi?

LUCKY SITHOLE: It was more than 100 metres away.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, in your written statement, Exhibit A, you say that you were subsequently arrested in Greytown as the police had traced you, because you had left your bag with your identity document in the stolen kombi?  It gives me the impression it is because they found your identity document in the kombi, that they were able to find you and then arrest you?  Is that correct or how did they manage to find you in Greytown?

LUCKY SITHOLE: What I would like to say is before they found the bag in the vehicle, they had already located me.  When they found the bag, I was already in their custody.

CHAIRPERSON: So it had nothing to do with your identity document, you were arrested without the help of your identity document?  Do I understand you correctly?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I was arrested before the police found the ID inside that bag.

CHAIRPERSON: Then please make sense with this statement you are making, paragraph 21 of Exhibit A regarding your arrest.
	It says here -
"... I was subsequently arrested in Greytown, as the police had traced me since I left my bag with my identity document in the stolen kombi."

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is not the case, the police arrested me before they found the bag inside the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the second problem you are having with your statement as being incorrect?

LUCKY SITHOLE: It must have been a mistake made by the person who wrote the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to ponder this while we have tea, when we started this hearing, you were given the opportunity to amend whatever you wanted to, in that statement.  Ponder about it, I am going to ask you a question now regarding that, when we resume.  We will adjourn for tea.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

LUCKY SITHOLE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember the question I posed to you before we adjourned?  It was how the police was able to arrest you and there is a conflict between what you tell us and what is written in your statement?  Can you explain it or can't you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: What I can explain is I was on my way, getting away from Stanger and I had no alternative but to flee.   I cannot relate the leaving of the bag in the vehicle with my arrest, because the police located and arrested me while I was about 100 metres away from the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Now one other question, you say when you were arrested, you were already on your way to Mozambique, but you were giving the kombi a chance to cool down?  Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you take the route through Greytown?  That is not on the way to Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, under such circumstances, it was not just running away as you would under normal circumstances.   At that time, I was running away because the police had been alerted, and other people had also been alerted.  That is why I was forced, or ended up heading that way, to Greytown, but Greytown was not my destination.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that but it is going in a different direction to the one which could be used to go to Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you going to get to Mozambique on that route?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I would explain again.   When I arrived in Greytown, it was to the intent that I was allowing the car to cool down, and secondly I wanted to give enough time to enable myself to see that the police were not after my tail, so as to be able to plan effectively my route to Mozambique.  In any case, under those circumstances I was not acting normally, because I was running away from the police.

MR LAX: How would you have gone to Mozambique, because you have already told us you didn't have enough money?  How could you be on your way to Mozambique when you didn't have sufficient money for the logistical purposes that you said, to transport the arms back, and so on?  That was the reason why you wanted to go and rob the other place, the bottle store?  Your version is that you got no money at the bottle store, whatsoever, so how could you be on your way to Mozambique?

MS THABETHE: Can I clarify something, Mr Chair, because I am listening to both, sorry.   I am listening to both, the translation and the Zulu version, and from what I hear, I hear him say in Zulu, it is not exactly the same thing, I don't know whether he is moving very fast, I don't know whether the Interpreter is comfortable with the speed.

CHAIRPERSON: Never mind the comfort, what are you saying, that there is no proper translation?

MS THABETHE: Not everything is being translated as he is saying it, I don't know if it is because he is moving fast or what.

INTERPRETER: What have I left out, that is what I would like to know?

MR LAX: Did you hear the question from the Interpreter?

MS THABETHE: Yes, yes, I did.  I heard you saying that he was running away from the police, not that he was on his way to Mozambique from the time he left the bottle store.  I don't know...