Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Because of the atrocities that were being committed by this vigilante group you acted for the sake of  peace, stability and democracy in Nkutsong Township, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is so.  We tried to restore peace in Nkutsong.   The police  didn't take any steps even if the gangsters killed people.  They did nothing about it and they got even the guns from the police.

UNKNOWN: I believe that this group was so well-armed, is  it so?  The group that I am referring to, the vigilante?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is so.  They were armed all the time.

UNKNOWN: Who was arming them?

UNKNOWN: This policeman, Captain Van Graan and Oosthuizen -they got all these firearms from the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the name of the policemen again.

UNKNOWN: Thomas Mandla Mkonza(?), Vincent Godele(?), Oosthuizen, Van Graan, Devan Oosthuizen, Captain Van Graan.

JUDGE WILSON: ... giving weapons to these people?

UNKNOWN: The thing is they are always around with the police wherever they were.  They met at 685 in Nkutsong.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that your reply?
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UNKNOWN: /...
6	MR FALTEIN

UNKNOWN: Yes, whenever I saw them they were always carrying firearms.  They were always accompanied by a policeman and even they were just visiting the police stations.

ADV DE JAGER: When he was shot, which policeman accompanied him on that day?

UNKNOWN: I have forgotten his surname.  He was called Scarface because he had a scratch on his nose.  I don't remember his surname.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he give evidence at your trial?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he did because when we got in court they told us that they don't trust us.  They cannot listen to our case, they cannot take statements from us, therefore we left.

JUDGE WILSON: You were convicted of murder, weren't you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he give evidence at that trial?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did give evidence in court.

JUDGE WILSON: Did the policeman you call Scarface who you say was accompanying the deceased when he was shot give evidence at your trial?

UNKNOWN: No, Scarface was not there when we appeared in court.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Faltein, I am afraid we don't have a picture as to what happened on the day this person was killed and I am going to take you back a little bit before your counsel presenting evidence puts questions to you.
The deceased was killed on the 24th December, you said so.

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was killed on the 24th December 1990.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When did you see him for the first time that day?
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UNKNOWN: /...
7	MR FALTEIN

UNKNOWN: I first saw David Mayeko the first time when he started chasing us trying to shoot us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where were you?

UNKNOWN: I was with co-accused David Themba Ncube.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And did you see the deceased on the street?

UNKNOWN: I saw him coming out of the 685 yard.  That was the first time when I saw him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you saw him come out of 685 yard, he was not yet chasing was he?

UNKNOWN: As he went out that's when he was starting to chase us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you saw him for the first time he was not yet chasing.

UNKNOWN: Yes, they were chasing us all the time from the location and on the 24th December we were visiting our parents when we saw them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am trying to get you to start right at the beginning as to what happened on the 24th and you must listen to my questions carefully.  You saw the deceased for the first time on the 24th December 1990 in the yard of 685.

UNKNOWN: Yes, he used to go at 685, but on the 24th I saw him going out of the yard chasing us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then what happened when you saw him come out of 685?

UNKNOWN: When he went out of the yard he called us.  We just ran away and then he was shooting in the air as we were running across the streets.  And then when we thought that he had turned away, we thought he was away but the co-accused shot him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are giving your evidence in a very telegraphic manner that I don't understand what you are
1	saying/...
8	MR FALTEIN
saying, I am afraid.  You can't just shoot in the air and then you run and then Mr Ncube just shoots him.  Surely there must be some things that happened.  Didn't Mr Ncube stop, turn around, look at the deceased?

UNKNOWN: As he was chasing us, when we got to a third street, standing in the corner, we thought he was no longer chasing us, we wanted to go back home.  As we were standing and when we turned around that was the time when the deceased faced us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You turn around and then, that was when the deceased faced you, and then?   Mr Faltein, why do we struggle like this to get information out of you?  Were you not told that when you make application for amnesty you must come and give all the details and all the information to us?

UNKNOWN: I do understand because I read the whole booklet on application.  When we got to a third street we stopped.   We thought that we were going to go back.  He was  carrying a gun and he wanted to shoot us.  When we tried to go back he was having his gun in  his hand all the time.   He had a gun in his hand when Themba Ncube shot him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did you do?

UNKNOWN: I did nothing.  I was just there at that day and time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: .... of murder if he didn't do anything?

UNKNOWN: It is because I was always in the co-accused's company, that's why I was accused of having murdered the deceased.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What do you say you did?  (Inaudible) what they allege you did do.

UNKNOWN: I was arrested on my way back from school and I was told that I was being arrested for murder, two
1	murders/...
9	MR FALTEIN
murders, and they told me that is the murder of David Mayeko.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (MICROPHONE NOT SWITCHED ON)

UNKNOWN: The police who was handling the case told me
that me and Themba killed the deceased.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you were in court, what did they say you did?  Did they say you stabbed him, did they say you also shot him?  What did they say you did to the deceased?

UNKNOWN: In court they said we shot the deceased.  We never shot, but I was there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In court they said you also shot the deceased, you, Mr Faltein?

UNKNOWN: No, in court they said both of us had guns.  They didn't say exactly who shot the deceased.  They just told us that we are being charged for murdering the deceased.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you also in fact have a gun?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I had a gun, but I never used it.

JUDGE WILSON: Why have you not mentioned this before?   Why didn't your counsel lead this evidence that you were armed with a gun?

UNKNOWN: Yes,  I had a gun but I never used it, but I never used the gun.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see, Mr Faltein, that is why I have been having the feeling that you are not telling us - you are not disclosing to us what you should be telling us.  That is why you are only now mentioning this gun.  Because  it has been quite clear that you are telling us - giving us all the details as to what happened.

UNKNOWN: I had the gun all the time, but I never used it.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /.....
10	MR FALTEIN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The deceased, was he alone when he gave chase to you?

UNKNOWN: It was the deceased and two State witnesses and  Scarface.  The rest I didn't see.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So all that happened that day, if I were to sum you up was that on the 24th December you saw the deceased for the first time when he came out of 685.

UNKNOWN: On the 24th December it was the first time that I saw the deceased.  I hadn't seen him for a long time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you say when he saw you he started chasing you and you two ran away.

UNKNOWN: Yes, he did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then at some point you stopped, turned  round and then Mr Ncube shot him.