Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: There were 20 people present.

MR SARDIWALLA: And did the gathering then decide on who was to execute this?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, after the meeting we volunteered that we were going to go and carry out the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: May I, on a point of clarity, just take that up?  After you had decided to attack this van, did the meeting not discuss who was going to participate in the actual attacking of the van?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, the meeting did not participate in that because no-one wanted to nominate anybody else, it was just us who decided on the side.

CHAIRPERSON: So you met on the side after this meeting?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So the only decision that was taken by the meeting was that this van must be attacked?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But the meeting did not decide as to who was going to launch the attack?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, the meeting did not make the decision.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you volunteer in the meeting while the meeting was still in progress?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We went aside after the meeting and decided that we were the ones who were going to carry out the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Who had convened this meeting, the meeting of the 1st March?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I will say the person who might have been in charge was Nkosenye.

CHAIRPERSON: And what position did you hold within your local branch?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I did not have a position.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity did he convene this meeting?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: He convened the meeting because we as a people had been harassed and attacked and whatever happened, happened to us collectively.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Sir.

MR MALAN: May I just get clarity here?  Did he call the meeting or did you happen as supporters of the ANC to be together?  Was this a formal meeting?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It happened as we were sitting around as ANC members, that we discussed this matter.

MR MALAN: There was no meeting called, he didn't send out people to call you to a meeting?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, no-one called us because at that time we were residing at the mountains.  We were already staying in the mountains.

MR MALAN: You were together?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we were together.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you, Chairperson.  So this meeting, was it not just a group of people that decided they must take some action, or was it an organisation ANC meeting?  What was it?  Just to clarify that aspect.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was ANC members who made the decision.

MR SARDIWALLA: And was this the way in which you normally made these decisions, or was it any different to the normal procedure of your meetings, ANC meetings?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that was a normal procedure.

MR SARDIWALLA: Now, was there any particular reason why you were not openly - why there wasn't a nomination as such openly at an open meeting to say you and you would be executing this decision?  Why did it have to be done shortly after, where people volunteered?  Was this the procedure, or can you explain why?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: The reason we decided after the meeting on our own was that there were people who would sometimes come to listen to what was said in the meetings, whereas they were not members of the organisation so that if that happened that there were people who had been listening to the discussions in the meeting, they would not be able to go back and inform the authorities that Saul and the other persons were going to be carrying out this mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me get clarity on this.  Are you suggesting to us that you as people who had left your homes, you had fled because of the height in violence and you were staying at the mountains.  You did not trust one another.  Staying at those mountains you still thought there would be an infiltration of IFP members in your midst?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet you still proceeded to take decisions with regard to which target of the IFP you planned to attack, without fear of the fact that that decision would filter into the ears of the IFP?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, although we did mention who was to be attacked, we did not regard it as wrong to make that decision because no-one at that point was mandated to carry out the act.

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't you have been scared that the very decision that you had taken would then be disclosed to the IFP and the whole objective of taking a decision would be defeated because, by the time you go there, you are most likely to be having the IFP waiting for you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was not easy for them to get that information because at that time it was already in the evening and no-one would have taken the information back to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Proceed, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you, Chairperson.
This white bakkie that you had intended targeting, did you know enough about this bakkie and the fact that the person you were targeting would be in this bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we knew, we had received information that that was the vehicle he drove.

CHAIRPERSON: From whom had you received such information?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: A certain female had actually told us that Makeke used to drive that van.

CHAIRPERSON: Now is that how you knew that Makeke drove the vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was your only source, from this lady?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla, you may proceed, bearing in mind obviously that you must have recourse to the evidence that is before us by way of an affidavit with regard to this particular issue, that's paragraph 6.12.

MR SARDIWALLA: In your affidavit you made specific reference to this vehicle being used in previous ambushes.  Can you explain that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.  That did happen.  We did see the vehicle.

MR SARDIWALLA: Where did you see it?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We saw it approaching whilst we were sitting.

MR SARDIWALLA: No, I'm talking about the vehicle that you said you regularly saw being used during the time of previous ambushes against you or against your organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not correct.  The vehicle had been identified during the attack of the 26th of February and not any other attack.  That's very specific.  There was only one attack in which this vehicle was identified and that's the attack of the 26th of February.

MR SARDIWALLA: My apologies Chairperson.  Yes, I think you are quite correct.  I'm looking at the incorrect statement, sorry, my apologies Chairperson.  Yes, to get back to your paragraph 6.12.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have a copy of this affidavit you are referring to?

MR SARDIWALLA: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Can he read English?

MR SARDIWALLA: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it could also expedite our proceedings if maybe you can lead him obviously having regard to the evidence already accepted by this Committee by way of an affidavit.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zulu, your attorney is reading on page 4.  At the moment he is reading from paragraph 6.12.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you read English?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you understand it?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Although not fully but I can pick up here and there.

CHAIRPERSON: If you do not understand what is written there, because it is not your first language, there are interpreters who are available to help you.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, they can help me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you Chairperson.  If you look at paragraph 6.12 on page 4,

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I can see that.

MR SARDIWALLA: You - can you comment on that particular paragraph where you say you identified the white bakkie transporting members of the IFP during the attack on the 26th February 1993?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.