Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

DJ MKHIZE: I would say I would stick to my argument of political motivation because of the instruction that I received.  But information that may have come beyond that, information that would indicate otherwise apart from political motivation, I therefore cannot say that you should direct that blame to me; that I did not investigate.  But I do take the blame however that I killed a person under the conditions that I have just led.

MR KHUMALO: If we go back to the previous question that I asked you, the one that was related to the possibility had my brother been your own biological brother, would you have assassinated him, and you said no.  Do you remember that you said that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said it was a difficult one to answer.  He didn't directly say no; he said that is difficult to answer.

MR KHUMALO: Okay.  Now you indicated in your affidavit statement that the docket was opened, and you were not charged or prosecuted.  But you are here to ask for an amnesty.  Yet justice was not given an opportunity to take its course or the law to take its course, and as such you were not punished.  Now you are here just to escape that.  What do you say on that?

DJ MKHIZE: I am not here to escape justice.  I gave three, if not four reasons as to why I am here.  I still maintain that I am prepared to testify at any forum that may be brought together at any stage; a forum that would include my involvement in all these activities.  Regardless of who is going to be implicated, I will continue to give the same testimony even though I know that that will endanger my life; knowing of course that I too will eventually die one day.

MR KHUMALO: If the people implicated by yourself, people like Mrs Mbuyazi, Capt Mzimela, Capt Langene, Romeo Mbambo, Dalixolo Luthuli, MZ Khumalo; if they were to be charged or prosecuted, would you still be in a position to become a State witness and lead the same evidence as you have done today and yesterday?

DJ MKHIZE: If God still preserves me, I will do that without any hesitation.  I will not doubt about doing that.  And there will be nothing new that I would say apart from what I have said, contained in the document.

MR KHUMALO: If they totally denied to have given you such instructions, because as a trained policeman you were able to make a clear distinction between a justifiable instruction and an unjustifiable instruction; legal instruction and illegal instruction.  If they say they never gave you that instruction, Maj Langene, Brig Mzimela, Mrs Mbuyazi, what would your reaction be?

DJ MKHIZE: What I can say to you is that this panel here is a Commission; it is not a court of law.  In a court of law - I'm happy because I can see you are educated - in a court of law they cannot shake me with the kind of evidence I have here.  They cannot touch me with the evidence I have here.  The court of law is not the same as the Commission.  That is why you cannot even see them coming forward here to refute what I am saying here.  They were also called at the court of law and they did not show up.  They just sent legal representatives and that was all.  People who were earning their salary to make a living.  They would not come personally, because they cannot shake me with the kind of evidence I have here about these activities.
(AUDIENCE CLAP HANDS)

MR KHUMALO: I thank you for that impression that you are...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, please calm down.  Please be quiet.

MR KHUMALO: I thank you for that impression that you are giving us.  Therefore (indistinct).

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairperson, the speaker's mike is not on.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) this is a major concern from the part of the bereaved family.  It's not - this should not be treated as a child's play, this is not a game causing us to lose our brother, the breadwinner in the family who happened to have a number of children who are completely bereaved.  And he was the leader in our family.  So it was an irreparable harm that we suffered; that we are suffering.
	Did you know at the time of carrying out the assassination that what you did was against God?

DJ MKHIZE: I have indicated a number of times that there is no justified killing.  But the thing is how is the person's conscience working at the time.  I can therefore say that my conscience failed to serve me well at the time.  And that is not the same as the time under which we are living now.  And therefore I am now engaged in introspection.

MR KHUMALO: I understand what you are saying; I regard it as a mere comment.  My question is: at that time of pursuing the assassination of my brother were you aware that such deed was against God or not?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I was aware.

MR KHUMALO: Now since you are aware at the time, if you are given an amnesty, what would you convince us on that you have repented or you are likely not to kill people?  Because you knew at that time that it was against God.  God that was existing at that time is still existing and tomorrow He'll still be existing, the same God.  Then it's likely that you will be pursuing the same activities.

DJ MKHIZE: The conscience, a person, a human being has conscience.  Yes, I knew at the time that God is alive, as much as I know now.  But my conscience at the time was not a humane conscience.  It was a beastly conscience.  The kind of conscience that I have now was restored by God and that is the humane conscience which I did not have then.
	There is one guarantee or assurance that I can give you now: that my conscience had clearly deserted me.  But now I have restored my conscience which directs me from my wrongs and against all bad things I did.

MR KHUMALO: (Inaudible) that the situation that we are in; it's easy to put yourself in a situation where we'll find ourselves being trapped into our shoes and we feel exactly the same, which you are not in the true sense of the story.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't quite understand the question.  Did you...?

MR KHUMALO: So what I am saying is... [intervention]

INTERVENTION: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR KHUMALO: What I am saying is the situation that you are trying to put forward, that you were in which caused you to do such evil things like assassinating my brother and others, that particular deed of yours you did it after you had been given numerous offers like going to Caprivi, being offered more money and so on and so on.  And even tomorrow this world is like that; it will be giving you more and more offers.  And I mean what is your comment on that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question, are you saying Mr Khumalo is that in the event of amnesty being granted you may be subjected to temptation again, to find yourself in a repeat type of situation and end up killing people again.  What do you say to that?  I think that is the thrust of the question Mr Khumalo is posing.

MR KHUMALO: Exactly Mr Chairman.  Thanks.