Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No, he was convicted on a charge, I think, on public violence in Witbank.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but where was that case heard, was it not in Delmas?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I think it was in Witbank.

CHAIRPERSON: Not Delmas?  Was it not in Bethal?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No, it was not in Bethal tried.  He was already in prison at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: During that case he was already in prison?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tee?

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Skosana, I would like you to go to paragraph 14 of your submission.
	In that paragraph you say that there was a person, Soli Morapi, who had committed some act of murder or something that the police were looking for him in Ogies.  Now this Soli Morapi, was he a friend of yours?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Soli was my friend.

ADV TEE: In paragraph 16 you say while Soli was on the run, he contacted me and some other comrades.  Where did he contact you from?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I was at home on that particular day.  Two comrades arrived, they asked me saying that Soli wanted to see me.  During that week I was planning to come to Nelspruit to come and collect my money.
	So I asked the comrades where Soli was because according to the information, I thought Soli was not in Witbank at that time, so I went with those comrades to Shlanigahle squatter camp where I met Soli.

ADV TEE: Now in your statement here you don't mention that you were going to Nelspruit to collect money, is there any reason why?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Which statement?

ADV TEE: In the statement that you presented to the Committee?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: This statement, this one?

ADV TEE: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I am getting a ton of interpretations, I am not sure which language I am cross-examining in myself.  I think it is English.  If we can just get somebody to speak one language at a time, I would appreciate that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you on channel 2 Mr Tee, because if you are on channel 2, you will only hear ...

ADV TEE: I am on channel 2, so I am getting English.  But I am getting English in the interpretation as well.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, I want to sketch a picture for you, listen carefully and tell me if I go wrong.
	You knew Soli, you knew him quite well, is that right?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: You heard that Soli was in trouble.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

ADV TEE: Soli made contact with you.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

ADV TEE: The two of you then went together to Joe Nkuna's house, is that right?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, that is correct.

ADV TEE: When you went to Joe Nkuna's house, were you aware of what Soli had been doing before he met you or were you not aware?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I was not aware.

ADV TEE: Now, you cannot say then whether or not Soli was acting under any commands from Head Office, can you because you were not aware what he was doing?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I won't be able to speak on behalf of Soli, I don't know whether he had instructions or not.

ADV TEE: Now, let us say that you were travelling with Soli on your way to Joe Nkuna's house and Soli mentions that he has a mission from Head Office.
	It is not your mission, you wouldn't have taken much notice of it, would you?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He didn't tell me anything about any mission.

ADV TEE: And then when you get to Joe Nkuna's house, together with Soli, the three of you then talk about the mission, that there is a particular person who is an enemy agent, his name is Shabangu, you are all wrong, you have been misinformed, is that not what happened?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: When we arrived, we told Joe exactly why we came to his place and he promised that he was going to help us.  After some days, he came to tell us about the operation.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, what I am trying to say is this, if Soli had the information from Head Office as to the name of the agent, you wouldn't have known, would you?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: If he had the information before?

ADV TEE: If Soli Morapi had the information as to the name of the agent, you wouldn't know that, would you?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: When the two of you arrived at Joe Nkuna's house, he would be fair in saying that you both came together, not so?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: He who?

ADV TEE: Joe Nkuna.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV TEE: When you together with Morapi arrived at Joe's house, you would not know whether Soli Morapi had an order concerning the name of an agent, you would not know that, is that correct?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I didn't know about these instructions given to Joe until they were given to me by him.  I would say when we arrived at Joe's place, we didn't know anything at all.

ADV TEE: Now did you know whether Joe had had contact with Soli before you met Soli?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: What I know is that Joe and Soli used to work together in the organisation, especially in the SAYCO, its formation, they worked together in the Region.
	When I skipped the country, Joe did help me and Soli also helped me to skip the country.  I will say that both of them knew each other before I met, because they once worked together in the Region.

ADV TEE: Can you say as a fact that Soli was not carrying orders from Head Office as to the name of the agent, Mr Shabangu?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I think Soli might be the right person to answer that question, I can't confirm that.

ADV TEE: Now you see, the applicants in both of these cases, have a problem.  The applicants here are relying on an order that had its origin with a man who is now dead, Mr Hani.
	And you have a problem in that you are relying on corroboration for your story from a man who is also dead, Soli.  Now how can you say with certainty that Soli did not have the order from HQ, from Head Quarters?

ADV MOJAPELO: With respect, he didn't say so.  He didn't say what orders Soli had or did not have.  The question to him is how can you say with certainty that Soli did not have the information, that is not his testimony.
	He says he doesn't know what Soli had.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To quote him, he said it is only Soli who can respond to that.

ADV TEE: Thank you.  Now, Mr Joe Nkuna has said that both you and Soli arrived with the order relating to the name of the agent.
	It is true that you and Soli arrived at his house, is that not so?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, we left Witbank and we arrived at his home.

ADV TEE: Now, if Soli carried that order and you didn't know about it, you cannot comment on whether or not Joe Nkuna received the order from him, is that so?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I don't know whether the orders were coming from Soli, but all I know is that all the orders were coming from Joe Nkuna.  He didn't tell me about information that he had.
	However, all instructions that I had, were coming from Joe Nkuna.

ADV TEE: Now, you made a statement to the court in mitigation of sentence when you were on trial, is that correct?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: And your statement is contained in a document which is part of your application for amnesty, under the subdivision (c).