Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-24

HENDRIK LEEUW: I believe he had sold them by then because the cows that he had were quite a number then.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you ever go back to him and ask for your cows?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I would be asking for trouble if I did that, because he didn't want people to visit his farm.  And moreover the people he dispossessed things, and therefore when we went there we wanted to repossess what was originally ours.

ADV DE JAGER: So you went there to repossess what was yours, and that was inter alia your cattle or the cattle he sold, you wanted your money back?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: But why did - apart from anything you knew the farm, he in fact stole your cattle, and you were not interested in getting it back or taking revenge on him?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No I was not taking revenge.

JUDGE WILSON: But for 20 years you didn't bother to go and enquire to find out what had happened to this cow of yours, is that so?  Did you never make any enquiries?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I never made any enquiries, it's because should I go there he would fight me, against me.

JUDGE WILSON: How many cattle did you have?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was three.

JUDGE WILSON: Three cows?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get them from?

HENDRIK LEEUW: From my grandfather.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What did you mean by saying that you went there to go and repossess what was yours?

HENDRIK LEEUW: To explain this, as we are attacking the farmers we were repossessing what was originally the Africans', it did not belong to the farmers.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.

MR MTHEMBU: Is that your testimony Sir?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just give us an indication of the goods you in fact took from the house, the clothing, what clothing?  Did you take all the clothing in the house?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No we didn't take all the clothing in the house.  We found those coins and the two firearms and a camera and those clothes.  And the groceries were already in the car because they had come with the groceries already in the car from wherever they came from.

ADV DE JAGER: At what time did they leave the farm?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was at about one o'clock.

ADV DE JAGER: What day of the week was it?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I don't remember clearly, but it was on the 12th.

ADV DE JAGER: 12th of?

HENDRIK LEEUW: February.

ADV DE JAGER: 1991?

HENDRIK LEEUW: 1992.

ADV DE JAGER: 1992.

HENDRIK LEEUW: 12th of February 1992.

ADV DE JAGER: But it was during the week, it wasn't a Saturday?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it was during the week.

ADV DE JAGER: And at what time did they return?

HENDRIK LEEUW: If I remember clearly it was at about six o'clock, because when we attacked them it was just almost sunset.

ADV DE JAGER: So from one o'clock until six o'clock they were away from the farm and you could have gone to the house and you could have taken everything you wanted?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, but the purpose was to attack the White people who were oppressing through the apartheid.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't go there to get stock for the PAC you in fact went to attack the White people?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We were going to attack a White person but the order that we got from the commander was to attack the farm and this was the first farm and thereafter there were several other farms that were targeted as well.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, but I want to have the - if you could help me in this respect, you could have taken the clothing, you could have taken the guns without killing the people but it was part of your objective to kill the people and take the goods as well, or was it only your objective to take goods in order to assist the APLA soldiers?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We got this order from the commander, we didn't do this voluntarily.   We got an instruction from the commander to attack the farmers.

ADV DE JAGER: You attacked the farmers and to get their possessions, did you also get the instruction from the commander to kill the farmer?

HENDRIK LEEUW: He did not specifically point out this farmer, I chose it specifically.  I chose it as the first farm to attack and then we can proceed to the rest.  And then we will take whatever we've got to the commander the next time
we meet him.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, no that's exactly what I say.  He instructed you to go and fetch groceries and clothing and whatever you could get and bring it back to him.  Did he also instruct you to shoot the people and bring the corpse to him?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Maybe we can divide it into instalments, did he instruct you to kill people, to kill the farmers?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, John Showa gave us the instruction to kill the farmers so that the country should be back to the Africans because this land was never in the hands of the people, so it had to return to the hands of the people.

ADV DE JAGER: It wouldn't have mattered if he was a commander in the army you had to kill the farmers because they were in possession of the land?

HENDRIK LEEUW: In order to get the land back we got the order from the military that we had to repossess the land and hand it back to the Africans.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, and you would have taken as a target any farmer who had land?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That is why we targeted that farm and we will proceed to the next farm after we have finished with that one.

ADV DE JAGER: Until you have repossessed all the farms around there?

HENDRIK LEEUW: So that these farms must belong to the Africans because the land was dispossessed by the White people. The APLA wanted the land to belong back to the Black people.

ADV DE JAGER: So it wouldn't matter whether the farmer belonged to the army or whether he assisted the police, the fact that he had land that was the reason why you attacked
farmers, or anticipated to attack farmers?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The objective of APLA and the task force was to attack the farms in order to take back the land of the Africans.

ADV THABETHE: Mr Leeuw can you briefly explain to the Committee exactly what instructions were you given by Mr Showa?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The instructions given by Mr Showa was to do our work and to continue with our war against the farmers.

ADV THABETHE: Did he specifically tell you which farms to attack?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No he did not specify which farms, he just said farmers in general.

ADV THABETHE: So you chose the farm owned by Mr Fourie, is that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it is so.

ADV THABETHE: What were the reasons for you to choose that farm?  Would I be correct, or would I be wrong if I say it was for your own personal experiences with him, the fact that he took your cattle, he didn't treat you well, would I correct if I say that, the reasons for you to choose Mr Fourie's farm, specifically?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The reason why we chose Mr Fourie's farm was to get the arms that we needed in order to use.  At that time John Showa explained to us that we cannot get arms in the country, we can only get them if we attack.

ADV THABETHE: What I am trying to find out from you is your choosing Mr Fourie had nothing to do with your personal experiences with him, is that what you are telling the Committee?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it was not for personal enrichment but just
to find the arms.

JUDGE WILSON: But he had very few arms compared to most farmers, isn't that so?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: One .38 and a Baby Browning, which was useless for your purposes.

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: So why choose him?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The reason was to get arms on that farm in order to continue with the African struggle, not targeting specifically Mr Fourie.

ADV THABETHE: Can I continue, can I proceed?   Can anybody from - since Mr Showa is late, can anybody from the APLA authorities verify what you have just told the Committee members about the instructions that were given to you?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes there is.

ADV THABETHE: Can you tell the Committee the name of that person please?