Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: After having killed him we decided to go out and look for Robert Mabaso who was also a member of Inkatha.
	We proceeded to his place and it was still early, something to seven or something past seven and we did not want to get into a house and find a situation where people were sleeping inside the house and we had to attack the house itself, so we decided to go there early so that we could see and identify him because we wanted him specifically and not anybody else who was innocent.
	We proceeded to his place.  The lights were on but the other room was shut, one was open.  I went into the one that was open and the other guy went to the other room, proceeded to the room where the door was shut.
	We got to the place and we knocked at the main door.  We could hear a female voice from inside who was asking as to who we were.  We said it's us but we did not really identify ourselves.  They did not open.  Then came a male voice who asked as to who we were.  We realised that it was Mabaso speaking.  He opened the door and when we realised that it was not Mr Mabaso we decided not to shoot because we wanted a specific person.  
	We left the place and we said he should tell that dog that we are looking for him, so we fired some shots in the air and we left.  This poor woman was screaming, telling us that Mabaso was not there, he was at the hostel.  We left the place without having injured anyone.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you ever charged criminally with either of the two offences that you've just testified about?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: No, we were never prosecuted because we were running away and hiding ourselves and I don't think there's anybody who knew that it was us who were committing these deeds.  We had some code of secrecy amongst ourselves not divulge anything or any of our activities.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now the second incident for which you seek amnesty is the incident for which you are presently serving a term of imprisonment ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry, before we go to that incident can we just get clarity on whether or not the applicant shot at Robert Mabaso, as stated in paragraph 14 on page 69?  I'm not too clear about that, thank you.

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: No, I never shot Robert Mabaso.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	I wanted to move on to the incident for which you are presently serving a 12 year term of imprisonment, that's the death of Busumgani Shandu and the attempted murder of a Mr Ngcobo. 	Can you remember when Mr Shandu was killed?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] during 1992, the month was June.  I think the date was between the 6th and the 12th, I'm not very sure.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Before you come to describe the incident, at your criminal trial you pleaded that this incident or your defence was that of self-defence, in other words that you were taking steps to guard yourself against an attack, is that what happened?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes, that is correct, that is what I said, that I was defending myself.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Will you tell the Committee what in fact happened?  I think if we started earlier on in the morning in your consultations with me you described an incident which occurred as you were coming to work that morning, will you tell the Committee about that?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Excuse me, where did you say I should start?  How it happened or - could you please just repeat your question, I've got no clarity.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened when you were on your way to work that morning.  Start with that incident.

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: It was a Friday morning and I was expecting to get my wages and knock off earlier because it was a Friday but because we were not free to move in the streets because of the situation that I've already explained and I did not want people to know as to what transport I was using I was moving between a taxi, a bus as well as vans.
	Fortunately on that particular day I used the staff bus which used to pick us up from Daveyton to the factory.  I boarded the bus and just as we were getting close to the factory, just about to take a turn into the factory, we heard some gunfire whilst we were inside the bus.  The gunfire was coming from outside the bus.  We went to peep through the windows as to what was happening.  We saw shop stewards, that is Amos Gamede as well as another man by the name of Welcome who was a shop steward.  They were being attacked and shot at and we were screaming inside the bus.  
	I ran to the driver and said to the driver he should stop the bus so that I could get out but the driver refused and said it's very dangerous for him to stop at that point because the attackers were just nearby and he was also fearing for his life.  He drove the bus.  
	We went past and we saw that the attack was still going on.  He stopped the bus at quite some distance and I was the first one to get out of the bus and went back to the scene of the attack.  That is where our shop stewards were being attacked.  I wanted to go and help them.  I did not have anything, any gun but I felt that as a man I should go and see what was happening and see as to how I could help.
	I could see them finishing Mduduzi off and I was at a distance seeing that they were chasing Welcome.  I saw Joseph and I think they saw me and Joseph coming towards their direction.  They fled the scene, they went towards Wadeville area and Mduduzi was lying on the ground at that stage dead.  
	This factory was having mixed sexes working, there were woman as well as men working in there and women were screaming inside the factory.  We decided to go back into the factory and not go outside.  So we went into the firm believing that we would be safe inside there and I collected all the other people who were outside and we instructed the policeman or the security guard to lock the gate so that nobody would gain entry into the factory.
	Immediately when I went into the factory the very first thought that crossed my mind was what we had discussed earlier on as men and members of the ANC.  We said because they are killing us with so much precision, they work together with us during the day and they send people to come and kill us after hours because they would point us at an earlier stage then they would kill us at a later stage.  If anyone of us would kill or be killed outside then the first thing that must happen when we get into the firm, we should attack the very ones that we are working with.
	When we got into the factory I tried to identify some of the members of Inkatha who were working at the same factory and there were a lot of screams at that time.  Nduduzi had died and was left outside.  
	I proceeded to the office of the shop stewards.  Luckily when I got in there the shop stewards were there as well as other members of the ANC and we were seeking some solutions as to how to deal with the death or the killing of Mduduzi.  I came up with the plan and said: "You guys should stop crying, let's put our plan into practice, that we should seek out the members of Inkatha who we were working with in the factory and we should also attack them because they were attacking us with so much precision."
	We went out of the office and we told ourselves that we were going to kill anything and everything that had to do with Inkatha, whether it was women or men.  I'd not had a gun on that day but I knew that members of Inkatha did carry guns into the factory at times.  
	I went into my locker, I got a bayonet and went to some bosses of Inkatha at their working site.  They did not see me at that stage, they were laughing and saying: "Those dogs think that we have finished, this is just the beginning, we are going to kill them one by one."  That is at the stage where I got to them with the bayonet ...(intervention)