Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct, this is my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is not dated is it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: No date in my statement Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That signature on the last page, is that your signature?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That's correct, this is my signature.

CHAIRPERSON: Has this letter been written by yourself, is this your own handwriting?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This is my handwriting Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that what stands in this letter is the truth?  Do you confirm the truth thereof now under oath?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes, thank you.
	You are mentioning in your statement that a meeting was attended by the late Doctor Asvat and Mrs Sesulu at the doctor's surgery ...[indistinct], do you know of any other efforts by the leadership nationally, either of UDF or AZAPO, to try and control this violence that was between the two organisations?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The meeting that I remember very well was a meeting between Doctor Asvat who was a prominent leader of AZAPO and Mrs Albertina Sesulu who was also a prominent leader in the community at that time.  This is a meeting that I remember very well, a meeting trying to bring an end to the problems between UDF and AZAPO,

MR TLOUBATLA: Besides this - before I even go into that, did you attend this meeting personally?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, I attended.

MR TLOUBATLA: Besides this meeting, are you aware of any other efforts from the leadership of the community or from any other members of the community to try and control the violence that was going on?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Churches were involved if I remember very well because this was a community problem, a problem that affected the whole community.  Churches took part, trying to solve the problems of the day.  I remember Reverend Sibedi was involved in trying to solve this.  If I remember well, Archbishop Tutu got involved in some of the cases, trying to stop violence.

MR TLOUBATLA: At the time, how old were you Mr Mphoreng, in 1986?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was 21 years old.

MR TLOUBATLA: What was your occupation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: At the time of the incident bringing us here I was a full time member of the organisation.  I
was involved at the branch level in Orlando, I was the
secretary of the organisation.

MR TLOUBATLA: You were not employed in the sense of receiving payment, salary and so on?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was unemployed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.  Now coming to the incident of the killing of these boys at Showela, can you tell us how you got involved, who came to you, what happened, just from the very beginning.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: After Jeff's house was burnt down in Orlando West, Jeff came to Orlando at one of our hide-outs.  It was in the morning when he arrived, I think it was round about half past six to 7 o'clock in the morning, and he briefed me that his house had been burnt.
	After briefing me, I left together with him to Orlando West.  Indeed when we arrived the curtains were burnt to ashes and the paint was also burnt and the blankets were burnt.  He briefed me and he told me that petrol bombs were thrown into the house and they even shot into the air.

MR TLOUBATLA: With whom was he when he came to give you a report?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When he came to fetch me he was alone.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then, was it just the two of you that went back to his house?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: He found me with a certain boy at our hide-out but this boy was not a member of the organisation, that is why we did not take him with, we left him and I left with Jeff.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then you went back and what did you do when you went to his house?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When I arrived at his house I found two comrades and we tried to clean the bedroom, yes, the curtains were burnt down and some of the blankets were also burnt down and we cleaned the room.

MR TLOUBATLA: The house, was it still standing normally, was it okay except that there had been some burnings inside?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, at that time the house was still standing.  The main bedroom was the only room affected or was the room affected.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then you started cleaning the house and then, what happened thereafter?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Other comrades arrived in the process of cleaning the house. Probably news had spread already that Jeff's house was attacked.  It was a tradition within AZAPO that when one of your comrades is in trouble we had to go and help him, now comrades were coming during the course of the day and leaving.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know who could possibly have alerted the other comrades to come in and check at Jeff's place?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I don't know but I think it's Jeff himself.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then you stayed there until when?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I spent the whole day at Jeff's place, I left at night.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then during the day when you were there, except Jeff, any other members of the organisation with whom you were there that you can recall?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When I arrived at Jeff's place in the morning I found comrade Sam and comrade Tammy already there and during the course of the day, comrade Pitso comrade Thandakubona and comrade Nani arrived.  Yes, when I arrived I also found comrade Kabelo.

ADV BOSMAN: What time of the morning was it that you arrived at the house that had been burnt?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If I can remember very well it was about 10 minutes to seven.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then you spent the whole day, were there any disturbances whilst you were there for, let's say from members of UDF?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: While busy cleaning Jeff's house I think about 15 or 20 boys passed and they were singing intimidating slogans and the impression that I got at that time and the suspicion at that time as that yes, these are members of AZAPO.

ADV BOSMAN: At what time was it that the boys passed?  How late was it when they passed?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This happened at about half past eleven, a quarter to twelve.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you say that this group belonged to AZAPO or to UDF?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I said, when we were busy cleaning a group of boys, and I suspected that these were members of SOSCO, they were singing intimidating songs.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you.
	Did they just - they sang walking past the house where you were, they didn't do anything?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: They sang, passed, and went back and sang, passed, and went back and we just ignored them because we were cleaning.

MR TLOUBATLA: So in other words they were going up and down the street in front of this house?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct, they were singing up and down.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you recall perhaps how many times they went up and down the street?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember how many times but it was a few times, I can't remember whether it was five or six times but I do remember they were singing up and down.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay, then you were there, you were cleaning and ultimately what transpired?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: After cleaning I did not leave for Orlando, I remained behind.  During the day comrade Kani and comrade Ernest went to Orlando, I think they were going to wash and after 30 minutes or 45 minutes after they had left they came back with certain boys who were in the car.
	When they arrived with these boys in the house I managed to identify that these boys were among a group of boys singing intimidating songs.

MR TLOUBATLA: When they came back, who came back and with how many boys was he?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If I remember well, there were six in number.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then who was travelling with those boys?