Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was in the middle of June.  I do not remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying the order was not given to Radebe alone, it was given to the members of the unit?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.  That's what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was present amongst members of your unit when you gave that order?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was Mr Radebe, Fani Mkhwanazi Godfrey Shiya, Bongani Chansa, Sipho Tshabalala, Shakes, I do not know his surname, Bopipo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The order was given to the entire members of your unit?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were to execute the order if anyone of them came across the two ladies in question?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, after you had given them the orders, what happened?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Two months went by, if I'm not mistaken.  On a Monday Bopipo came to me to report that an order had been carried out in that Hapile was dead, and the other one survived.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, what was you policy in relation to the carrying out of orders?  Were the unit members expected to report back to you, was there any specific person who had to do that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: The person who carried out an order is the accountable person.

MS MOLOISANE: In this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt please.  The person who executed an order would have come to you, and that would be so irrespective of his rank?  That is so, isn't it?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Can you repeat your question, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence was that a person who executed an order was accountable to you, and my question is, am I correct in therefore assuming that that person would be so accountable to you irrespective of rank, as long as he had executed your order?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: You say Bopipo then made the report to you, is that correct?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: And Bopipo is Borman Ntjolo, is that correct?  Is that the same person as Borman Ntjolo?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you investigate this after this report was made to you?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Unfortunately I did not have time.  The situation was tense and I had to be on the run.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you said you were the unit commander.  Were you accountable to anyone or not?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: To whom were you accountable?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was commander action known as Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE: Now when you issued this particular order, specific order that Hapile and Elsie should be killed, did you do that on your own or was it because of orders that you received from elsewhere?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: This had been issued out as a general order, and as a commander of the unit I also had authority to order somebody's death if it was necessary.

MS MOLOISANE: Is this your evidence that your
(GAP BETWEEN TAPES)

CHAIRPERSON: It is not his evidence.  Don't lead him on that aspect.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him who had issued ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: Who had issued these general orders?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I had explained that it was Bonga, commander Bonga Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlango you had not yet explained that, and I am listening to you as you give your evidence in Sotho.  I can't even apportion blame to the translator.  You had not yet said anything about the person who had issued the order.  You may simply proceed to respond to questions put to you by Ms Moloisane and don't tell us about that which you have already said or not.  Just answer the question without having to prefix anything to your responses.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you chair.

MS MOLOISANE: Now what did he say when he issued this command, this order?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He issued out this order to the unit commanders and said should Hapile and them be seen anywhere they should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, when was this general order issued by Mr Khumalo?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was after the SDUs were properly established.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which was when?  We know you came back in February 1992.  When were the SDUs properly established?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: They were established around June, if I'm not mistaken, and that's when he issued out a general order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  And let me repeat what you've said.  The general order was to the effect that you as unit commander should kill Hapile and Elise when you saw them.  And this an order that was given by Mr Khumalo to you as unit commanders, that's correct?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you have referred to it as a general order.  Why do you say it was a general order?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I'm saying it was a general order because their death sentence had already been made.  Now as unit commanders of the four units we were supposed to know this message clearly.

MS MOLOISANE: Did this general order only concern Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, or did it also cover other Imidwembe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: The general order covered Imidwembe.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't it been your evidence that the general order was that you should kill Elsie and Hapile?  Is that not your evidence?  I believe you may be correct.  My note says that the general order was that you should kill Hapile and Elsie.  It would appear that one of my colleagues has something different.  What do you have?
...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed then Ms Moloisane, thank you.  You can canvass.

MS MOLOISANE: Should he continue to clarify that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Please clarify that.

CHAIRPERSON: What did it mean when the order referred to Hapile and them?

MR LAX: You're looking a bit puzzled Mr Mhlongo.  Do you understand the question?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not understand it.

MR LAX: Let me explain it to you.  You're being asked to elaborate on what you meant when you said, and just to give you the background, you were asked what were the specific words Bonga Khumalo told you, as commanders.  Your answer was that he issued out this order to the unit commanders.  He said, and then you quoted him, "...should you see Hapile and them, or should they be seen anywhere, they should be killed."  Do you remember saying that ?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I remember.

MR LAX: Now the question is, what did you mean by using the words Hapile and them?  Do you understand the question?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I understand the question.

MR LAX: Please explain.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: When I'm referring to Hapile and them I was referring to Hapile and the other Imidwembe that were present at that time.  Hapile and Elsie included.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you understand to be the definition of Imidwembe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Those were the people to be killed when seen.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your answer in Sesotho and let the translator listen to you response in Sesotho properly.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: These were the people to be killed when seen, because if we don't kill them they were going to kill us.

MS MOLOISANE: But what kind of people were they?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not understand your question, what kind of people were they.

MS MOLOISANE: We know they were Imidwembe.  What does that mean?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Are you referring to the word Imidwembe?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Imidwembe means an enemy to us.

MS MOLOISANE: Now on what account did you classify Hapile and Elsie as enemies.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: They were enemies.

MR LAX: The question is, why did you consider them to be your enemies?