Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR LAX: And furthermore, if you go back just to the next sentence after you've read
"This was an operation by members of the TDF under the command of so and so, Anti-Riot Unit, East London Security Branch, the Task Force from the South African Police.  I was part of this operation."
So I think he is making it clear that it's not just one group that burnt the house, it was a combined operation?

MR MGIDLANA: That's what I want to find out from him.

MR LAX: But isn't it obvious from both affidavits?

MR MGIDLANA: There was from - on the one ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps then ask him why he didn't mention all the ones in paragraph 13 then?

MR MGIDLANA: Or alternatively why he did not mention the security police in paragraph 8 on page 12 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You see this is a sort of thing you can use in argument because we've got it here, you can argue as strong as you like that when he's mentioning the anti-riot and the TDF he's ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: He's excluded it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that, we can see it.

MR LAX: Do you understand the question?  You're being asked to explain why you've given slightly different versions in your two affidavits.  In the one affidavit you say the house was destroyed by the security police only and that is at page 13, paragraph 15.2, at the bottom of the page.  I just want to know why you didn't say, include the others there and then similarly at paragraph 8 why you didn't include your security branch in that paragraph, that's paragraph 8 at page 12 of the bundle rather than the affidavit?  Sorry, you're looking at the wrong document.  "There was", do you see that passage there?  So really, all we're looking for is an explanation from you as to why you omitted the names of the one lot in the one and you're own forces in the other.  Have I put the question clearly?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes thank you.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I still do not get the question.  I would request the speaker to repeat the question.

MR LAX: Okay, I'll do it simply for you.  If one reads these two documents as you've just read them yourself now, you will see that in the one you leave out certain people as burning the house down.  In the other one you leave out yourself and your own security branch members as burning the house down.  All you're being asked to do is to make a short explanation of how these things happened, these discrepancies, or apparent discrepancies, let's call it that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It's not something that I did deliberately, it was just an innocent mistake, my intention was to mention all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you yourself see the persons who were looting at the shop?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I saw them.

MR MGIDLANA: You saw them as you were in the forest where you had been ordered to go or were you still there next to the shop at the time that the looting took place?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: After Boy was apprehended, taken out of the forest, we were told to go up to a spot where the officers were, that was when the shop was destroyed.  It was destroyed after Boy was apprehended and I saw the police looting in the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you take part in the looting yourself?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you take part in the burning of the house?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Why are you then applying for amnesty if you did not take part in the burning of the house?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It is because I was also involved in the operation.

MR MGIDLANA: But you did not burn the house?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: So you are not asking for amnesty for the burning of the house but for your participation in the operation, is that what you're saying?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm applying for amnesty because I was involved in the operation and for torturing Boy Jafta.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm sorry Mr Mgidlana.  Do you associate yourself with the actions of your other security force members in everything they did during that operation?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was present there as a policeman.  I could have prevented it from happening if I had powers but I couldn't do it therefore I'm much as guilty as them because I was also involved in that kind of an atrocity.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: You say you don't know why the house was burnt?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I don't know.

MR MGIDLANA: As far as you are concerned there were no people inside the house, I mean the people that you were looking for, there was no one hiding in that house?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: From the things that were looted from the shop, did you get anything at all?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you not one of the people that were travelling in a creamish Laurel?

CHAIRPERSON: What was that last word?

MR MGIDLANA: Creamish Laurel.

MR LAX: Nissan Laurel.

CHAIRPERSON: Nissan Laurel, a type of motor vehicle?

MR MGIDLANA: Motor vehicle yes.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was driving a Skyline white in colour.

MR MGIDLANA: And was that the only Skyline that was there?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There were two cars of that type, the other one was beige in colour, those were twinned.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Mgidlana, I'm not an expert but a Laurel and a Skyline are they similar?

MR MGIDLANA: They are two different cars actually.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at them are they very different?

MR MGIDLANA: They are very different, yes.
	I'm told that the looted goods were stacked in these two vehicles, one being a Laurel and the other being a Skyline.  Are you saying that not in the Skyline that you were in?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There was Mr Makubela, Atcha and no looted goods were in that car.

MR MGIDLANA: Again, I think there was an aspect that I left off before we went out for tea.  When you were saying that Makubela was actually tortured by the soldiers, my instructions are that he was tortured by yourselves and you were included in that number, personally included?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I am telling you of what happened, it's not a hearsay, Mr Makubela was apprehended by the soldiers and he was dipped into water, dirty water that was next to the road.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may just interpose?  Are you saying you didn't in any way whatsoever torture Makubela?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They never assaulted him at all, he was just in the car.

MR LAX: Does that clarify it for you?

MR MGIDLANA: Amongst all the people that are listed in your affidavit as well as the others that you said you knew and were detained by yourselves, were you present when all of them were detained, were being arrested and detained?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: On some occasions I would be present but not all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: And further I'm instructed that in all of them you were always present, you and - it will always be you and Sgt Tshota, is that not correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I think that is a mistake.

MR MGIDLANA: So it could well be that it's correct that you are always present, or is it just that because the events took place a long time ago you can't be certain, is that what you are saying?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was not always present.

MR MGIDLANA: You also said that you would not be present when they are being tortured all the time but they say you were always present and you were always leading the torture yourself, is that not correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The people in respect of my amnesty application is those are the people whom I am certain that I took part and I was even present.  I couldn't have named anyone during whose torture I was not present.