Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: At the time I heard, even from the police, that he had been tied up with the wire.  I thought I should take it as the police heard it.  I am personally not certain whether he was tied up with wire.  Nobody said I must shoot either.  I just shoot, I was given no such order.

MR SWART: It is also so that you said in your evidence today that you only took your firearm in case of resistance  and why did you then use your firearm at all?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I will repeat this again, because there was conflict I shot.  At that time when Madoda and Ndinisa was holding this lady I shot again, as I was running I shot the lady again and I shot the gardener as I was running so that they were not able to identify us to the police or which direction which we had run to or what we were wearing.  I did it so that we could have enough time to run away, because there was an open field.

MR SWART: Was this the policy of your organisation, to shoot in this way?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, yes.  Sometimes I would get a command that I must plant a bomb.  If there is a security police I would have to do something to remove them from planting that bomb.  Even if it meant killing them.  I am here to tell the truth,  to ask for forgiveness.  The people that were shot there.  Those people were shot so that they would not be able to identify us.  This would happen a lot at the time, even within the organisation.

MR SWART: Was it not the policy of your organisation only to shoot people in self-defence?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It is self-defence, it is protection, you are protecting yourself when you are shooting somebody so that they are not able to identify you.

JUDGE WILSON: What organisation do you mean when you say we were, you were asked in (indistinct) the policy of the organisation, what organisation was it ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: ... that it happened a lot that people were shot to  ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not on.

JUDGE WILSON: What organisation is it that you are referring to as your organisation now, the organisation that it happened a lot that people were shot to prevent them identifying?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not say that when people were being shot a lot, I said that you would shoot at somebody if you were protecting yourself.

JUDGE WILSON: You said it happens a lot in our organisation.  I am asking you what is the organisation.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I am talking about the African National Congress.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you not referring to PAYCO, Mr Maxam?  Are you not referring to PAYCO when you refer to an organisation?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Maybe you are not hearing me well.  PAYCO was affiliated to the African National Congress.  It was a small local organisation at the time affiliated to the African National Congress.  The UDF was the umbrella body in the African National Congress.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But the UDF then existed as a legitimate organisation whereas the African National Congress was a banned organisation.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: The UDF was also banned, but they worked very hard as a vehicle of all organisation that was affiliated or aligned to the African National Congress.

MR SWART: Mr Maxam, must we accept that you would have shot any person you found on the premises, because they could have identified you?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: That is so.

MR SWART: So, it was just unfortunate that those people were there that day.  If there had been more people or other people you would have also shot them?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, as things were that particular day, I would have shot at them.

MR SWART: You did not think before the time of going to the house at a time when there would not be people there, like at night?

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, I object to that question on the basis that it is unfair, it is not to say that at night time there would not be people at the house, that it is something that can be taken for granted that there would not be people at the house at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from that to ask questions on speculating what might or might not have happened does not take the matter very much further.

MR SWART: Thank you Judge.  Perhaps I could just rephrase it in a different way.  Knowing that whoever you found on any premises would be shot, did you not make any attempt to find places which were unoccupied before going there?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We would not know whether in a certain place there would be people or not, but we just went there looking for weapons.  Even if I found the owner of the house, the owner would, if the owner shot me at home they would accept that I went to other persons premises and that that person shot me.

JUDGE WILSON: In most houses the domestic workers stop working over the midday break, do they not?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: In most houses, please repeat your question.

JUDGE WILSON: In most houses domestic workers stop working over the midday break, do they not?  Either between 12 and one or one and two.  They leave the house.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that happens in certain houses.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Maxam, this house was identified to you by Mr Ndinisa.  That is your evidence.  Am I correct in stating that way?  That is how I have understood your evidence.  Mr Ndinisa identified this house in Vlakkeland to you.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Maybe I said that in court.  Mr Tisana told me about this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think it is my mistake, my apologies.  That is your evidence, Tisana.  I had the wrong surname.  Mr Tisana, in fact, identified the house in question to you.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did he advise you at the time of identification of that house that there would be a possibility of a domestic worker and/or a gardener being present at the time that you intended to break into that house?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: No, he did not advise us of that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did you not expect to find a domestic worker or a gardener at the time that you intended to break into the house?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I will not say that we did not expect this, because surely in white peoples' houses there are domestic workers, but we were not there with the aim to shoot them.  We were aware that there were domestic workers in these houses.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how did you intend to deal with the presence of a domestic worker or a gardener?  Was that, did you have any planning in that regard?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We did not plan of what we would do.  That is why I asked her to open the door, because we told her that we just wanted to search the house, she must just open the door for us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that had she opened the door you would have gone in, took whatever you wanted to and then nevertheless shot her, because she would have been able to identify you?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: According to what you are saying, Mr Chairperson, we would have planned something so that she cannot identify us.  Maybe we would have blindfolded her so that she cannot see us clearly.  If she opened the door for us I hope that we would have just took her and closed her eyes so that she cannot see us.  We did not plan to shoot a person in that house.  We would try other means.

MR SWART: You see, Mr Maxam, I put it to you that your choice came, your decision came at the moment you decided to enter the house, because had you accepted the water, even though she had seen you, you could have turned around and left.  It would have been unnecessary to shoot, to kill two people.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: What we wanted there were weapons, we were looking for weapons so we had to get them.  We would have asked water in the township.  We just asked for water, because we wanted her to open the door for us.

MR SWART: You bought a weapon ...

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.