Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

ADV PRIOR: Now what I'm going to suggest to you, even though you say you had no information about the Bahai Church, I want to put the following to you.  It would seem that at least Kid, the commander and whoever else and possibly Jimmy Jones who gave you the instruction to go and kill these people, knew that there were three persons as you say, white people, at that Faith Mission, that they would be there towards the evening and that at least one of them had a brand new or a newish vehicle and that he would possibly be coming from some place to the mission at that time.  Do you agree with that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not know that.

ADV PRIOR: You see, if your task was simply to go and attack the people there, the white people there, then I don't understand why it was necessary according to Palapala's evidence, why you had to wait until a certain person had arrived before the attack could take place.  In other words the attack seemed to be dependant of the arrival of that person and on my information it was the person driving the green Jetta motor vehicle, that was Mr Rasdvi.
	He was in fact coming from the university.  So maybe I can simplify it.  It seems to me that your information was that the attack couldn't take place until that person had got to Bahai.  Do you agree with that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not know that and I cannot agree to that.

CHAIRPERSON: While you're talking about this Mr Prior, he said a moment ago that there were so many vehicles there he couldn't recognise vehicles didn't he?

ADV PRIOR: He said that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Palapala at page 132 of the record, line 7, was asked
"Was there just motor vehicle outside"?
and he replied:
"There were two motor vehicles"
	What do you have to say about that?  You said there were so many vehicles there, Palapala said there were just two vehicles there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Is he talking about when we were going or when was he talking about?  What time was he talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: When he came out of the church with the keys.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I don't agree with him, I dispute that.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	When you arrived at the church, is it correct that the congregation or people within the building were singing?  Did you hear that?

CHAIRPERSON: On which occasion?

ADV PRIOR: Well on the occasion that he mentioned because he disputes that they got there as Palapala states.  I'm simply going to put it on the basis that when they arrived there, possibly in the first instance.
	Did you hear singing or did you hear singing at any stage when you got to the Bahai church, whether it was the first or the second occasion, according to Palapala or on the occasion you say you got there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know of a second time, I only know me going into that church ground only once.  I do not know of any second time.

ADV PRIOR: Was there signing when you approached?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not hear anything.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I wish to refer to the photographs of the Bahai Church, they haven't been marked yet.  Could they be marked B and they are the photos of B1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 and they simply depict the Bahai Centre, the exterior as well as the exterior.
	Mr ncamazana, could you just go through those photographs.  Would you agree that that is the Bahai Centre at Mdantsane?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to say whether, when you entered there, one of the deceased - were all the deceased present or did one of the deceased come in at a later stage?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We all entered at the same time.

ADV PRIOR: And you say in your evidence ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you realise what the question was, it wasn't when you entered, it was when the people who died entered.  The three men you've called the white men, did one of them come in later or were they all there at the same time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When we entered one was leading us, others were already inside.

ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible] N P Manensa, and I refer to page 94 of the record of the bundle, he said
"The deceased, two deceased were seated amongst us.  We were all singing and I was teaching them to sing a song"
And she talked about, at page 95:
"There were elderly persons in the church and there were children"
And she goes on at the bottom of the page"
"We were busy teaching each other hymns, singing at the same time and the children were seated in the middle and the side of the church.  Whilst we were singing we lifted up our eyes and saw a young man and this young man was entering and so on and another young man and another one"
And on page 96:
"They were carrying guns"
	You say you heard no singing at all?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not hear any singing.

ADV PRIOR: Did you realise that this was a church when you entered these premises?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I knew.

ADV PRIOR: From what, what made you conclude this was a church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because I was told we are going to a church.

ADV PRIOR: Now, were the - the people that you say were white people, were they asked anything, where they worked, where they came from?  Were they asked any questions by the commander, that is Kid or TNT or whoever?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not hear him asking any such questions.

ADV PRIOR: So they were simply ordered or instructed to move to one side away from the black people in the church, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And there they were gunned down, inside the church, is that right?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And were they trying to defend themselves, were they asking for their lives to be spared, were they pleading with you people?  Can you recall?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not hear them pleading or anything.

ADV PRIOR: Well, did you see them, were they moving their hands as if to ward off any attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The last time I saw them they had their hands held up high.

ADV PRIOR: Who had, did anyone make them to lift up their hands or had they simply raised their hands on their own?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: After the one who was outside had gone inside with his hands up they were then two, divided from the other people to one side and they also followed suit to their friend who had already lifted his hands up.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree that that gesture is an indication of total defencelessness, they were indicating that they were at your mercy, if I may put it that say, that they were not armed, that they posed no danger to you, they posed no threat to your unit, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I would not know but I cannot dispute that.

ADV PRIOR: And in that position keys were then demanded from them, is that correct, car keys?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We wanted car keys from them after they had been divided from other people, yes.

ADV PRIOR: And did they throw the keys at you or did you remove the keys from them?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: They did not throw them because commander TNT had told African Xoxo he must go and take those keys from them.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  I'm not going to question you on the detail of what happened there because the witnesses who testified, particularly Manensa, on detail she differs from you, but I want to put the following to you.  She said she heard people from your unit or your group talking about: "Ama Africa" and "Ama Boer" or "Boers" and "Ama Africa", is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And were the deceased, were they referred to as the "Boers"?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Did no-one in that church of the elderly women, tell you that these people were not Boers, that they were not white people, that they were people from overseas and that they were people that were helping the community, they were part of the church?  Did you not hear that?