Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-06-01

MR GERBER: On the  scene of the crime, on the premises.  There  were also two hand grenades of Chinese origin  in the bag.  I immediately realised that it was impossible to gain access to the premises, especially by eight  people, it was impossible for eight people to just walk into the premises without anybody having noticed them and to commit such a robbery without any suspicion being raised.
	My  suspicions were confirmed by our sources.  The attack which we had feared had  taken place.  I had talks with the Security Branch personnel, Major Deetlefs from John Vorster,  and I was also told at a later stage by Brig  Frik du Toit, Regional Commander of the Safety Branch, John Vorster Square, that APLA had brought in two cases of Chinese hand grenades.  At this stage the assault was not only aimed at Fidelity Guards but also at banks.  It was very clear that these attackers were (inaudible) for a cause, and they were also looking for firearms.  It was not only  confirmed by my own sources, but also by the Security Branch and members of Murder and Robbery.
	During May 1991 one evening round about ten o'clock I received a telephone call from an unknown black person.  He did not want to identify himself, but I recognised his voice.  He told me that if I went to the Fidelity Guards branch in Hillbrow the next morning at five o'clock, I would find the deceased, Samuel Ranaka, there busy negotiating with members of the PAC.  That morning quarter to five I was in the basement area where he was performing his duties. The  office  was also in the same building on the first floor.  I gained access through the front gate and went down to the basement by means of the fire exit.  I did not find Ranaka there, but a different guard who was performing his duties.  I noticed that the Incident Book that the handwriting in the  Incident Book had changed and that a page had been torn out of this register.  Whilst I was speaking to the guard, I heard somebody running down the steps.  It was the deceased clad in a type of karate uniform.   He was out of breath and I asked him where he had come from.  He told me he had been in the toilet on the first floor and I  said it was impossible because I had been there just before going down  to the basement and that there had been nobody there.   I asked him where his uniform was.  He showed it to me,  it was in a plastic bag under the table inside the office where they were performing their duties. 
	At this stage Samuel was also a suspect in a R60 000 theft of a money container.   This had disappeared from the safe area, there from the basement area,  a couple of days previously.  The video monitors had been tampered with, had been opened and some of the tapes had been removed.  I then decided to take Samuel to my office to wait for my staff  and his manager.  At this stage I  was determined, as a result of the information which I had received,  to clear up this matter.  (Inaudible) ... inside Fidelity Guards had been involved in this robbery.  Later that morning some of my staff members started arriving at the office as well as Samuel's branch manager.  I called him to my office and I told him what I knew.  I also decided to call the shop steward to my office.  I was experiencing great pressure from the Trade Unions at that stage in connection with the interrogation of  people in my office.  Both these members agreed they wanted to find out what the circumstances were and that we had to pursue our investigation of  Samuel  to expose  everybody involved in the robbery.
	I contacted the investigating officer, Detective Officer Dempsey.  I had to contact Lieutenant Steyn, his section head.  I spoke to Lieutenant Steyn and told him what had happened.  He informed me that he was involved  in an urgent bail application in the Supreme Court and that he couldn't help me, but that I had to continue with the investigation.  At this stage  Honourable Commissioners I  must mention that we  were busy with  investigations on an ongoing basis.  I had opened files similar to police  files, I took statements for the police.  I was appointed as a Commissioner of Oaths by the Department of Justice to facilitate matters and in this way we constantly exchanged statements with the police.   We investigated matters  very thoroughly so that it could  be handed to the Department of Justice for prosecution or whatever.  So I liaised with the  police on a very high level.  When  I realised that nobody could help me  I decided to speak to Samuel.  It was clear that he was very uncomfortable.  Some of my investigators, for instance Oosthuizen, he  isn't here today, and two black investigating  officers, Jack Makoana and Julius Xhosa,  I  asked them to  also  speak to Samuel to see whether we could get any information out of him.   As I have already said, these people were nervous.  This man was nervous, he didn't want to say anything in the office.  I then decided that he had to be taken to a field across from the Johannesburg Market for interrogation and questioning. 
	He was taken out of the premises by a side exit and taken by vehicle to this open field.    I was in radio contact with them and at a later stage Johan van Eck also followed them in his bakkie.  Because I still had other duties to perform at the office I went there a  little bit  later. 
	Upon arrival there I noticed that members from the electricity department, workers from the electricity department were busy working on the robots and that they would be able to observe us.  We were trying to talk to Samuel.  I noticed and realised that this was not an appropriate place for an interrogation so I decided to go to Cleveland  forest area where we  usually had braais. 
	When we arrived there I took Samuel out of the car and I spoke to him.  I asked him to help us with urgent information, we needed the information very urgently.  I told him that I could help him if  he gave me the information I needed, namely who the men were that were involved in the robbery on the 27th March.  He denied any knowledge of the incident and I decided to extract the information from him by means of coercion.  These  methods were commonly known.    During the Commission's sessions throughout South Africa these methods have been revealed.  I had a rope and shocking machine in my car.

UNKNOWN: Were these  things always in  your car, the shock apparatus?

MR GERBER: No, it wasn't always (inaudible) operation from the people. I tied Samuel's feet together and hoisted him up in the tree, upside down.  I then attached the shock machine to his private parts.   I pulled a bag over his head and we started applying shocks.   We constantly spoke to him and asked him where the other people were, the other people that we were looking for.   Each one of the investigators present  took part in this procedure, shock procedure.  The two black investigators spoke to him in his own language.  Samuel, however, refused to part with any information.  At one stage I sent the black investigators to go and buy some cooldrinks Samuel was still hanging from the tree.  There was liquor in
my car and we started drinking.  
	During these type of investigations and interrogations alcohol is always used.   No right-thinking person can act  in this way without your conscience plaguing you.  During the day Oosthuizen took out a firearm and shot two shots in the direction of the deceased where he was hanging from the tree.   We spoke to him very seriously and said that it must not happen again.  It was at no stage our intention to kill Samuel.  Later that afternoon Jack Makoena and Julius Xhosa  came to me and asked if they could leave.  It was about five o'clock in the afternoon.  Jack had to attend a class and the other one had to be dropped off at his home, and I said yes, they could leave.

UNKNOWN: Before you continue.  Was a  fire made at any stage?