Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR MOERANE: Wasn't certain information given to you by Lieutenant Mose as to the intentions of the people who sent these people who came on the first occasion?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, as far as I can recall Mr Mose informed us that one of these persons who had assisted the insurgents, once again wanted to make use of his services because there would be another infiltration.  I cannot recall whether he mentioned a specific date.

MR MOERANE: Did he not say that if the first infiltration was a success, then others would follow on the Sunday?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson, I cannot recall anything like that.  All that I can recall is that he said that they wanted to make use of him again for further infiltrations.  He did not mention any specific dates.

MR MOERANE: It was important to keep information about the events of the 8th, particularly the fact that the infiltration was not a success from the point of view of the ANC, secret from them, they shouldn't have known, they mustn't know that it was not successful?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson, for further infiltrations, it was essential to keep this story  quiet, the incident.

MR MOERANE: Not only that, but positive steps should have been taken to put them at risk and assure them that the infiltration had been a success?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, it wasn't necessary for the informer to state completely positively that the group had reached its destination, the informer were only responsible for arranging transport, so it wasn't really necessary for the informer to report back, that is how I understood it.

MR MOERANE: But you know that he did report?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I believe so.

MR MOERANE: And she misled the ANC, which caused them to send another four people to their death?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct, it wasn't the full truth.

MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Moerane, on what grounds do you know that she reported back to the ANC that the first infiltration had been successful?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I did not say that I knew, but ...

MR MALAN: No, but it was put to you that you knew that she reported back to the ANC that the first operation was a success and you answered to that positively.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Let me just state Chairperson what the informer's function was, I believe that she reported it back, because all indications were there that if she had not done so, they would not have made use of the informer's services for the second time.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Moerane, but I think we need to, in the absence of this implicated person, ask a few questions about this and in her interest I think, or his interest.  This informer was an informer within Swaziland?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Whom from time to time came across the border and provided information to you?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: At the stage when the first infiltration took place, would this informer certainly have been in Swaziland or do you have any knowledge that she was in the Republic?  We are speaking this in female form.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Could you repeat please.

MR MALAN: Do you have any knowledge whether during the first infiltration on the 8th, where the informer found herself?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: During the day of the 8th, she was in the Republic, or he was in the Republic to convey certain information to me Chairperson.

MR MALAN: That was the information regarding the infiltration?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MALAN: In other words the same person would have had to report that transport had been arranged?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You don't know whether this person returned to Swaziland or not?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: This person did return to Swaziland.

MR MALAN: In order to make those arrangements, to confirm them?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, to make the arrangements, I believe so.

MR MALAN: Did you at any stage tell this source of yours that these persons had come through, that you had picked them up and eliminated them?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson.  At a later stage, I informed the informer after the first incident that we had found the people, but I did not sketch the circumstances surrounding the incident and where it took place.

MR MALAN: What story or what version did you want to leave with this informer, what was the informer supposed to think regarding what had taken place if you did not tell her, that you had arrested the persons in a roadblock and that you had them in detention?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I did not say anything about this incident to the informer, I simply said that the information which the informer had given to me, was positive and that we had also obtained positive results.   I also requested the informer to try again, that if there were going to be more infiltrations, to give me the information so that we could have a greater level of success.  I didn't say anything else.

MR MALAN: I am just going to take up your time for a short while longer, but with regard to the background, this informer is referred to constantly, but it has never been explained as to how this informer became an informer.  I want to ask you was any pressure put on the informer to be an informer, did she have a choice or was it under some form of coercion?  Did she provide voluntary information to you?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you initially approach the informer to assist you, how did the informer arrive at you, were you the first contact?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I was the first contact.

MR MALAN: You approached the informer?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you pay for information?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, money was handed over for services rendered.

MR MALAN: And this source was appropriately registered as an informer?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you.  Haven't you read a statement from the source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Repeat that please.

MR MOERANE: Haven't you read a statement from the source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: We said, Mr Moerane, that we don't want the source identified, I don't want to stop you, but as long as we don't identify it until we have had the opportunity to receive representations from ...

MR MOERANE: No, I don't intend mentioning the source's name.   May I proceed?  Thank you.   You knew that the source was intimately involved with the people who sent the infiltrators into the country from Swaziland?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: She knew of the arrangements?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Repeat please.

MR MOERANE: She knew of the arrangements and took part in the arrangements, the identification of routes for instance?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You know that she was arrested by the ANC?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Do you know how long after the second incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I was aware of it shortly after she was arrested, if the members of the ANC could arrest her in Swaziland, a short while after that, approximately two weeks later, she was abducted.

MR MOERANE: Yes, that is right, because somebody survived?  Because somebody survived the second incident, the people who were shot at on the Swaziland side, of the two, one survived and lived to tell the tale?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No, I don't believe that had any influence on the matter Mr Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: But you have heard the evidence?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, but I don't believe that the person who survived, would have exerted any influences under these circumstances.

MR MOERANE: In any event, between the two incidents, you must have had contact with the source?