Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: However, if I understand you correctly, it was never your version that you wanted to indemnify yourself.  Your version was never that you had not done anything, your version was that you had done certain things under the orders of your commanders?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Then I want to refer you to the criminal proceedings because it is something that sticks out like a sore thumb to me and I refer you to page 739, on the very last page of the documents that I've handed up at approximately line 21.  During this cross-examination, the prosecutor asks you "Did you regard yourself as responsible for the death of these people?" and your answer is as follows
"I did not regard myself as responsible for their deaths because I did not issue any order for them to shoot at these people."
	Now I don't understand that at all because regarding all these matters which I've cross-examined you about, I would like to place into context and I want to know whether or not you agree with me.
	Firstly - and it was also pointed out to me as such by the Chairperson, you at various occasions for various reasons said certain things and I will qualify it for you as follows:
You said that you said certain things to the police, not necessarily because you wanted to, but because you were placed under pressure and assaulted and that is contained within a statement which has been submitted to the Committee, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

MR DREYER: Then there was the second occasion where you were placed in the position to place that statement within the correct context.  Is that correct?  That was during the criminal proceedings.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: You then told the Commission that even during those proceedings in the open court while you were not threatened by the police and while you said according to your own version that you were being treated in an humane way by your advocate and others, you said "still I had a reason to tell certain lies because I wanted to protect certain people"?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Thus once again you are not speaking the truth but this is for a different reason because you wanted to protect certain people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: And then with the third occasion you appeared during these proceedings and you have another opportunity to tell the Committee what the exact or true truth is and the reason for that is that everything is at risk for you now to obtain amnesty?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Which reason would you have to not in the same fashion present untruths to this Committee and implicate people - because it's necessary and because it should fit in with your version that you acted in a military operation under the orders of the AWB?  What hinders you from telling the truth to this Committee?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't think that there's anything preventing me from telling lies to this Committee but an absolute fact is that I, as a person, am seeking my freedom as those who are with me in prison are seeking their freedom and that is why I have appeared before the Committee to tell the truth and only the truth and that is what I confirmed before we started these proceedings.

MR DREYER: It is certainly so that your legal team explained the importance to you of pointing out that you did not only act out of crime but that you act out of a military order?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was never pointed out to me that it was a crime, I was aware from the beginning that it was a political act.

MR DREYER: Perhaps there is a misunderstanding between you and me, I might not have phrased that correctly.  I'm not saying that your legal representatives said or pointed it out to you or that during any proceedings it was ever said on behalf of you that this occurred as a crime.  Just listen to what I'm saying - I'm sure that your legal representatives who are acting on your behalf before this Committee in some or other manner must have explained to you that it is important in your defence, a very important component of your defence that you, during a military or paramilitary operation, acted when these things took place.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: They did not point it out to me, I pointed it out to them because they are acting as per my instructions.

MR DREYER: So therefore you knew it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: That's a simple answer - you knew that it was important.  Now I'm asking you, how does this final piece which I have pointed out to you namely "I did not regard myself as responsible for their deaths because I did not issue any order for them to shoot those people."  All I'm asking is that when you said this during the criminal proceedings, upon which basis did you do so?  To protect who, yourself?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Chairperson, I would like for you to listen carefully so that we do not return to this point once more.  It has got to do with the comprehension of the situation - not only to protect myself and my cohorts but also to protect the generals and staff and General Japie Oelofse.  I could not make a statement saying that he had issued an order saying that there should be corpses that night.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, if you wanted to protect yourself then one would believe that you should say that namely "I did not give the order to shoot, the implication thereof is that these eight people who were with me decided themselves to shoot or something drove them to shoot but I did not issue the order for them to shoot."  That was your testimony during the criminal proceedings and I'm asking you simply - when you said that during the criminal proceedings, what did you aim to achieve through that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I wanted to indemnify myself as well as the others.

MR DREYER: Very well, I understand the first part of your answer - you wanted to indemnify yourself but if it is true that you wanted to indemnify yourself, how did you simultaneously with that denial wish to protect anybody within the AWB or the military structure of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If I had given the order I would have to be able to say to them why I gave the order as to why there should be corpses or why these people had to be shot and I did not want to disclose that.

MR DREYER: Unfortunately, with that statement, you have precisely left the others to their own fate because through that you said to the court you should deal with these eight people because I am letting them down, they will have to tell you why they shot because I didn't give them the order to shoot.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Might I point out to the Chairperson that the court case had been finalised at that point and that seven of the applicants had received their sentences and that Deon Martins had already testified, therefore irrespective of what I had said, it would not have made any difference to their cases.

MR DREYER: That is correct but unfortunately it does not fit in with your entire story as to why at various occasions for various reasons you lied - that's my problem.  It doesn't fit in with the story.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: What are you asking me?