Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-18

UNKNOWN: I'm not sure that I've fully understood the second question but I leave that for Professor Jenkins and I'll try to address the first.
 I think I need to say, I suppose firstly to comment on Dr Ramashala's view of what is a gross human rights violation, because I think that I would be concerned that we devalue and demean the awful experiences of many people who have experienced what the law has defined as gross human rights violations, if we put it into the same category as students who have not had an adequate support-system in tertiary education to ensure that we compensate for a bad schooling.  
 For example, I fully agree with the sentiments, I just want to make a distinction between what I think is the focus of our submission and what I think is the focus of the question.  I think the focus of our submission has been around the grosser human rights violations and has been trying to understand what is the culture and the climate that allowed that to happen.
 This sort of question is looking more at the question of how has discrimination - what can we do to redress discrimination and inequality?  I feel just as passionately as you do Dr Ramashala that we need to do this.  It's not in the submission because it didn't seem to me it was the key focus of the submission. 
 I will just say very briefly that we don't see this as something that a single faculty should take on because students generally haven't made those kinds of decisions at a very young age, so it's a university activity rather than a faculty activity.  The university identifies and has done for several years, schools in Black areas, townships and in rural areas, provides specific resources to fund laboratories for example to teach science teachers, teach English and Maths teachers, offers opportunities for students to come on to campus on Saturdays and special classes are there so there is a programme in place to try to improve the quality of matriculants so that we can take them without having to make allowances for their marks in such a way that they will not succeed at university because you've taken people who actually are not prepared.  So there is firstly a programme aimed at the schools.
 Secondly, for people who are accepted into our faculty, there is programme called an academic development programme.  In the 1980's we had a bridging programme, an extra year which I think you heard something of yesterday and you heard that some of the people who went through programmes like that at Natal University and also at Wits, found it demeaning because they were regarded as second class students, because they were separated into this special class.  At Wits we abolished it for that reason in the mid '80's.  We restructured it to be a tutorial support programme.  We're now of the view that we again need to reintroduce it and in 1997 we do have for example, 25 students in a bridging year which is run by a part of the University called the College of Science and is a feeder programme for all the science-based faculties, engineering science, medicine.  
 Then there is a tutorial and mentoring programme whereby we link senior students with junior students in order to help them deal with the many social disadvantages which they have coming into a completely foreign environment, accommodation problems, funding problems, transport problems, and so that also has to be addressed, not just the academic issues.
 Nevertheless, in spite of the fact that we think we are attracting, we know we are attracting the cream of the crop and we are providing all the support, it has to be said that we haven't found the formula.  We still have very high drop-out failure rates and it takes some students from disadvantaged educational backgrounds much longer, many more years to complete the degree than others who have come from advantaged backgrounds.  So it's a huge problem for us and it's the main reason that we don't have more Black graduates and we aspire to produce the Black graduates in a similar proportion to those in the population.  We can't do it by admitting people who are not going to pass, that doesn't do them any help and just costs them a lot of money in lost fees.  We need to do it through educational support programmes, but we haven't yet got the answer.  And I think that is one of the areas where there can be very useful collaboration with other institutions to try to find better answers.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor Jenkins.

UNKNOWN: Well if I understood the other question correctly, what I would say is that it's very difficult in the context of present-day teaching hospitals to really get close to patients and to learn about their world views, their way of life and so on in order to be able to emphasise as you, I think correctly put it.  I would suggest that this is a societal problem and not a uniquely medical faculty problem.  Until we have a society which is caring for all members of it and interact at a deep level, we're not going to get to this position where I would say, privileged students will be able to empathise in the way that I think you were getting at.
 I would endorse your sentiment wholeheartedly and say that it's in other institutions and organisations, community activities, churches, those sorts of organisations where these relationships can be forged, where in fact a genuine concern for the patients coming from an underprivileged background will find the caring and hopefully the healing.
 Now I hope that doesn't sound too pious, but I really think that it wasn't part of our brief in preparing this submission.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank both of you for your openness.  I am sure that the debates that have been started can continue at lunch time and at this afternoon's session.  So we hope you'll stay for that.
MEDICAL SCHOOL SUBMISSION - UNIVERSITY OF PRETORIA

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask professor du Plessis to come forward. Welcome, can I ask you to stand and introduce yourself and Wendy will help you in taking the oath.

UNKNOWN: My name is Professor Deon du Plessis, I'm a dean of this faculty for the last 20 months at the University of Pretoria Faculty of Medicine.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Professor du Plessis and I want to thank you for being the one university who sent us a submission unsolicited and we're very grateful to you for that.  Could I ask you to raise your right hand and take the oath.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue.