Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I already said that.  He had nothing to do with any operations.  He only received an order to give money.  If he had to give the money, it was done in terms of our financial plan.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was Mr Lafras Luitingh present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, not at all, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was Charl Naude present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not at all, he was not a member of the CCB anymore.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was Mr Corrie Neerholtz present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It could be that he was already dead by then.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you know, there is something that I want to draw to your attention in relation to your evidence this morning.  You admitted the presence of only one person and it happens to be one person who is a co-applicant of yours for amnesty, Mr Basson, isn't that correct?  Everyone else wasn't there.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to submit to the Committee, that you still owe a loyalty to your fellow conspirators and this is why you distance them from every act because you owe them a loyalty greater than the truth.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I reject it for what it's worth, what you are saying, but if I do have loyalties towards anyone, then I'm very proud of it.  I do not feel bad about it at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, does that mean that you are prepared to lie for the people that you consider as people as a higher loyalty than telling the truth to the Commission, is that how we are to understand you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I think that point is irrelevant because if there had been members who were involved, then they would have applied for amnesty, so it would then be logical that only those people involved would apply for amnesty.  Why would someone be here who didn't have to be here, so I do not really understand the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Maybe because they thought that their presence, that the facts would not come to the fore, but be that as it may.  Let's take another - in relation to the ...(indistinct - no microphone) Mr Evans, I don't want to go through the whole process.  We have the names, you remember them well, tell us who was present at any inner core meeting where the assassination of Mr Evans was discussed.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It should only have been Mr Wouter Basson, it couldn't have been anyone else.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that we again have the same pattern that the only person that you remember being present, is the one person that has applied for amnesty.  Very well, let's proceed.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson, the insinuation comes from Mr Bizos that I am busy lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Mr Verster are you saying that it was only Wouter Basson that was present when the assassination of Mr Evans was discussed, or are you saying he's the only person that you can remember who was involved in the discussions relating to Mr Evans?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: What I am saying is that it is only Mr Wouter Basson, because we worked in cell structures, Mr Chairperson and because the other persons who are mentioned here, had nothing to do with this incident and there is a clear  perception from Mr Bizos's side, that the inner core was a management core, which you can find in story books and at the back page of a newspaper and this is not at all the way in which we worked and even if he says that I'm lying, this is the truth.

MR LAX: Can I just go - sorry Mr Bizos, if I may.  Can I just go back to a theme I put to you yesterday, because the impression I get listening to you is that once again you don't have any independent recollection of any of these meetings.  You simply are implying that from your modus operandi, from the structures that you used, you are reasoning and assuming that certain people would or would not have been there, because of the nature of their involvements and other people's involvements.  Do I understand that correctly?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I want to answer it in the following way.  There were many regions, 10 regions and there were many projects and I applied for these incidents and I do remember that I gave authorisation.  I know which projects the region was busy with and I cannot remember the day, date and the time of this alone, but it is so that it fell within the responsibility of a region and it was specific incidents of a region and because there were so many other external projects outside the country, this is the way that I can handle it.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Mr Bizos.  Mr Verster, when Staal Burger attended the meeting during training, was he already the Manager of a region?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.  He was then already appointed as the Regional Manager of that region.

MR SIBANYONI: During such meetings obviously he would either talk or give a report about his region, activities from his region?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.  It was during training that he was already the Regional Manager, Mr Chairperson and in this regard we worked, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let us take the Early Learning Centre.  I'll ask the same question.  Who of the inner core was present when that proposal was brought to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Only Mr Wouter Basson, but once again you have the wrong perception.  Region 6 had its own projects.  If we can take the example, Charl Naude was then already not a member of the structure, but he had his own projects and the same also for the other members and they did not even know of the projects of Region 6 that was co-ordinated by Mr Wouter Basson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now can I have an answer to the question?  Can you remember which of the persons whose names we have mentioned as, or accepted members of the inner core, were present when the Early Learning Centre proposal came to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I've already said it, Mr Chairperson.  It was only Mr Wouter Basson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, in each one of these cases you do not say that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.

MR LAX: Sorry.  Just, could I just intervene.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just repeat ...

MR LAX: Every time you touch that thing with your pen, it cuts out Mr Bizos's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, could you just repeat what you said because your mike went off?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, are you saying that your Deputy was not present at any of - on any occasion on which any of these proposals were made?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, otherwise he would have applied for amnesty, so he was not present.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the only reason that you have to advance as to why you say he was not present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, we worked in a cell structure, so he had his own region and if I was away, then he would have needed to know about certain information or certain orders from me.

GEORGE BIZOS: I would have thought that a Deputy would want to be informed of all the affairs of the core that he is a member of, so that in your absence, he would be able to deal with things, or was this not that kind of Deputy?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: You can think what you want to, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm asking you, never mind what I think, please answer the question.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: You say you think what you want to and I'm telling you, you can think what you want to, but it is not like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you say that your Deputy was not there on any one of these occasions when one would have expected on the general probabilities that a Deputy would be there in order to do the things that you might have done if you were there at times when you were absent?  That is the question.  Please answer it.