Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: ...(inaudible) because when we went there we were a unit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you heard me put a question to Nkabinde as to what was the code name of your unit.  He couldn't assist us.  Can you assist us?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I would not tell a lie, I don't know the code name of that particular unit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For how long were you a member of this unit?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It was for the first time on the incident of the Jacob's incident and then it was for a second time during the Stanton incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So this operation was your first operation inside the unit?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Your commander I think it was said to be Monde Gadebe, he was a commander not so?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before you could get yourself involved in this unit did he explain to you what the unit was all about, what are you looking for?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No sir, he did not tell you anything.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He just co-opted you and he said now we are going to carry out an operation?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I explained earlier that I asked Monde, I requested Monde that I wanted to go for military training.   When I'd requested him about going for military training I did not ...(indistinct) to him or I did not expect him to take me to Diederick Jacobs house.  I wanted to go for military training so before I underwent military training we went through Jacobs incident before - these two operations before I could go to military training.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you say this operation was an APLA operation?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I will say so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How far had you gone to school?  Your highest standard or qualification?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Standard 7.  I was not able to go further in my studies.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you understand the difference between defensive and offensive?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Now was APLA an offensive or defensive unit?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean army?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: APLA Mr Chairman, APLA as the liberation movement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think because APLA consisted of hundreds of units and I think to refer to APLA as a unit is a bit misleading, it was an army.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Was APLA a defensive or offensive structure?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: In terms of my knowledge and observation, APLA was an organisation which was fighting for the return of the land to the rightful owners by the whites.  Therefore APLA was against those people who robbed us of the land.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you want me to repeat the question?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was APLA as a structure within PAC an offensive or a defensive structure?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I would say it was an offensive organisation because APLA's acts were those of attacking the enemy.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the "year of the great storm" all about, what was to be done, what was declared when in 1993 you said that now we're entering the year of the great storm?  What did that entail?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I don't have any in depth knowledge about that but the operation great storm, when Sabelo Palma informed us about that he was telling us that the situation is going to be bad.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Made bad by whom and how?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: By APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Mpshe, the witness has said that he didn't really know too much about the PAC, he was a supporter but he had little knowledge, in his own words, so now whether he does or doesn't know what the great storm was, not too much is going to swing on it because of his own admission that he knew very little.  He said he was a supporter and wanted to get military training but he didn't know much about the organisation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I agree very much Mr Chairman and I didn't intend to make any follow up, I was satisfied with his answer, Mr Chairman, I agree.
	Finally, Mr Mofokeng, will you tell us what APLA means, the meaning of the words A-P-L-A?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Do you mean when I say the whole - it stands for?  African Peoples Liberation Army.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I beg your pardon, Azanian Peoples Liberation Army.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't want to interrupt unduly, there was one question I neglected to ask and I thought it would only be fair if I asked it?

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could ask it now before re-examination it would be more convenient.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mofokeng, you said that at both the incidents at the Jacobs home and at the incident at the Stanton home, the victims were told this was an APLA attack.  Do you remember that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now I put it to you that that was never said to them, they were never advised that you were members of APLA and that this was an attack carried out by APLA?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: When victims say that they were not informed that it's an APLA attack, I wanted to know as to whether how did they know it is APLA because they knew that it was APLA which attacked there?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I don't intend to debate it with the applicant.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr   Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, only a few which arise from, regarding accused number three who has not applied for amnesty.
	Were you at any stage during your, after your arrest, come to your knowledge that accused number three was an APLA cadre?

CHAIRPERSON: That's Thabang?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to this Committee that it never even transpired during the trial that there's an allegation that he's an APLA cadre, you never heard about that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No.  In court the way they gave evidence because we were together with Monde and Monde was a trained APLA member.  We were going to Transkei to be trained, that is the way it was stated in court.  I would say that in papers or in newspapers it transpired that a highly trained APLA cadre was arrested on his way to - around Bloemfontein.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Just for completeness Mr Chairperson, page 20 of the bundle, third paragraph from the top.  I just want to read out, I would like you to comment on that
"During a trial within a trial" ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What line would it be more or less?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, more or less starting from line 19.

CHAIRPERSON: 19 yes, that's on page 20?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Page 20, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: My line 19 says "the version of accused number three was put to Tiedt"

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, that's what I want to read
"During a trial within a trial the version of accused number three who was Kopane in the trial was put to the"
I take it was the investigating officer or policeman involved that he alleged that - then I'll read as it is in the judgment:
"The version of accused number three was put to Tiedt which was broadly that certain threats were made to accused number three and in particular that accused number three was a member of APLA that he would be held in terms of Section 29 and would not see his family and that accused three had the option either to testify against Monde or if he failed to do so Monde would be killed."
Did you at any stage hear that during the trial?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: When Thabang was speaking about Section 29, I was threatened with Section 29.  When he testified about Section 29, the police said to him they will put him under Section 29 if he does not co-operate with them.