Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Donan, could I perhaps interrupt?  We've often heard about the doctrine of the need to know principle - we've often heard evidence about that at this Committee, namely that things were kept close and secret and it was only conveyed to a person who actually needed to know about it, otherwise it was simply not mentioned.  Are you at all aware of such custom - perhaps I could put it more strongly that it was actually part of the politics of the day or the system in use at the time, was based on a need to know principle?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Certainly, that was so from my earliest days and the first time I heard this was in the time of General Hendrik van der Berg when he was head of the security police.

ADV DE JAGER: And what exactly did it mean?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It meant that if a person does not need to know something, it wouldn't be told to him.  It dealt with actions committed and directed against political opponents, purely covert operations and these things would not be discussed at a staff meeting but it would be directly conveyed to the person who needed to know about it.

ADV DE JAGER: Did it also entail that no questions would be asked about things?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Indeed, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Even by yourself who was the commanding officer of a unit who actually should have asked questions and you didn't ask those questions?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, indeed,  I was wrong in that regard, in my view in those days we thought that we were defending the sovereignty of the State but we in fact defending the political system of apartheid.

MR DONAN: May I just divert - I was going to go onto the structures, to this need to know.  Did you understand that because of the need to know - was there a need to know instruction that you ever received?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I often received it.

MR DONAN: And did that instruction ever say that you don't need to know about the torture that was being practised by your units and the personnel under you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: And in fact you knew their methods?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Please repeat.

MR DONAN: You knew the methods, that torture was being used by the people under you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I knew what was going on.

MR DONAN: And everybody above you should have known the same thing, that torture was being used?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, not the methods but the fact that it was being used.

MR DONAN: So the need to know is not really relevant to the questions of whether people knew because they were prevented from knowing by the need to know every body knew?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The need to know was not a written rule, when an order was given - said to you: "Remember this is going to be dealt with on a need to know basis".

MR DONAN: I'll just put it more clearly, I'm obviously not making it clear.  The need to know rule or direction is no defence to the fact that there was a system of torture being applied by the security police?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I would agree with that.

MR DONAN: You left Cape Town for East London in 1985, according to your CV, paragraph 2 of your report.  It says
"Cape Town - '83 to '85, commanding officer investigating unit, Cape Town"

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I left Cape Town in '86 in fact.

MR DONAN: At that stage you were in charge of the investigation unit?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That's correct.

MR DONAN: And directly under was Willem Smit?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: Did he succeed you when you left?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I'm not so sure, I think there could perhaps have been another commanding officer between the two of us, but it's possible that it could have been him.

MR DONAN: And who would that other person have been?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It could possibly have been Brigadier Viljoen.

MR DONAN: Mr Liebenberg who's applying for amnesty was in charge of the terrorist detective unit, did you know Mr Liebenberg at the time?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I knew him very well.

MR DONAN: And under him were - according to the evidence, Mr Benzien, Mr Nel, Mr van Zyl, Mr Nortje, Mr Piet Goosen and Mr Kotze?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I know some of them, others I don't.

MR DONAN: There was also an intelligence unit, who was the commander at the time that you left Cape Town?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The commanding officer of which unit?

MR DONAN: Of the intelligence unit in the security police within the Western Cape.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I'm not sure, it could have been Colonel de Jager.

MR DONAN: Who was Piet Slabbert?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He was a security policeman.

MR DONAN: What was his rank and what was his function?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I don't know what his rank was and he worked in the intelligence section.

MR DONAN: Did you know need to know?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, but perhaps if the questions could be put to me clearer.

MR DONAN: I'm sorry, I was being facetious.  Attie Trollop ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Is it being put to you in he way a politician would?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, to provide for another question.

MR DONAN: I've just done precisely what my learned friend said I would do and I think now I will try to behave.
	Attie Trollop, who was he?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He was also a security policeman.

MR DONAN: And what was his function?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He worked for the investigating unit at one stage and then also at the intelligence unit.

MR DONAN: What was his position there?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't tell you.

MR DONAN: Gordon Brookbanks, do you know him?

CHAIRPERSON: What is that name again?

MR DONAN: Gordon Brookbanks.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, not at all.

MR DONAN: You've never heard the name?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: ...[inaudible]

MR DONAN: Now I'm instructed that the investigation unit, the terrorist detective unit and the intelligence unit reported to a commander of the security branch in the Western Cape, who was that - when you left?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Once again I'm not sure but I think it could have been Brigadier Strydom.

MR DONAN: Can you tell me what's happened to Brigadier Strydom today?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He's retired.

MR DONAN: And what does he do?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I don't know.

MR DONAN: Mr Viljoen?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Also retired.

MR DONAN: Willem Smit?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He's till serving in the South African police service.

MR DONAN: Piet Slabbert?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I don't know.

MR DONAN: Attie Trollop?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I think he's still serving but I'm not sure.

MR DONAN: Let me proceed in another direction then - from another direction ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Rather to another direction, from another direction would mean the same question but in a different way.

MR DONAN: I'm sorry.  I'll use a different ...[inaudible], we'll take the scenic route if we may.  How many of your associates in the security branch - the security forces, now operate in private security firms in the Western Cape.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I don't known.

MR DONAN: Do you know - let's go back to you, how were you linked to the National Security Management System?  Did you report to them in any way?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: At various stages and different levels.

MR DONAN: Could you tell the Committee please?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: At one stage I was in the Eastern Cape and I was the commanding officer of the security branch, I served on the Joint Management System for the Eastern Province.

MR DONAN: What sort of decisions were you taking at that level together with them?