Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: ... about the brandy that was divided into two bottles, it was taken along?  You took it along when you left for the road block?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For what reason?  May I ask you, obviously you are going to drink it, was it - did you people then drink it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know if those in the vehicle behind the Mercedes, drank any of it, I don't know who of them had anything to drink, but I, myself in the Mercedes did have some of it to drink.

CHAIRPERSON: You gave it to them for the purpose of drinking it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you drink yours, before you arrived at the road block?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: On the way to the road block, I consumed some of the brandy.  As far as I know, it was only myself.

MR DREYER: Did you drink everything?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I did not drink everything.

MR DREYER: Can you remember how many of you, how much there was?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If I had to measure it in glasses and include the factor that there was Coca Cola, I would say that it would easily have been two and a half to three drinks.

MR MALAN: : Can you remember how full the bottle was after you had your drinks?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I cannot tell you because this happened in transit, and I drank directly out of the bottle.   So I can't tell you exactly.

MR MALAN: : Can you remember what happened to the bottle after that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No it must have been in the car.   Perhaps Mr Martin can remember whether or not he found it there the following day, but I left it in the vehicle.

ADV BOSMAN: : Mr Kloppers, can we just look at your alcohol habit?   In the course of the day, how much did you consume.   Did you consume any alcohol before you went to the Order Group meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No I did not have anything to drink before I went to the Order Group meeting.   It was an ordinary Sunday and usually on a Sunday, I would have had a drink before a meal and perhaps afterwards.

ADV BOSMAN: : But on that day, did you have a drink?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : As I have testified before the Committee, when I came from the head office, I had a drink with my meal.

ADV BOSMAN: : Was that your dinner?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: : With lunch did you have a drink?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No.

ADV BOSMAN: : And at the Order Meeting, did you have any drinks?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No, no drinks were available at the Order Meeting.

ADV BOSMAN: : Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: : When these people took some liquor, or at least some of them took some liquor at Andre Visser's flat, at that stage they did not know exactly what they were going to do;  they did not know that they were going to put up a road-block?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct Chairperson.   They did not know what the order would be.

CHAIRPERSON: : But they knew that something serious was going to happen because you had told them that it was going to be a real McCoy?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: : And you were going on an AWB Military Operation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: : Did AWB military policy allow that?   If people were to go on important Military operations, they were free to drink?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : This was the first serious Military Operation which was undertaken by the AWB.   In previous instances when we had participated in protest marches, there had not been a problem with alcohol and that is why it was not considered a problem to use alcohol on that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: : Irrespective of whether you regarded it is a problem or not, would you say it was that it would have been the policy of the AWB - it would have been in accordance, or it would have been approved by the ... directly in the AWB, that people could drink if they were to go on an official Military operation?   Did you see that as being in line with AWB military policy?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I would like to refer back to the period when we undertook security for General Oelofse at the Assembly Hotel.   On the way to the hotel, when we took him there, we had drinks while we were in transit and this was in the presence of General Oelofse.   He did not disapprove of it.  At the Assembly Hotel, while we were on duty, I myself had a couple of drinks and we were never told that it was a problem.  So on that evening, it was also not a problem to me.

CHAIRPERSON: : I'm not talking about the evening when you accompanied General Oelofse to a meeting.   I am talking about the day on which you were going to start a revolution - a very important operation, a military operation.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I never regarded it as a problem because not one of the members who worked under me drank so much, that they would have been in a condition which would have rendered them utterly useless.

CHAIRPERSON: : To sum up, tell me taking liquor before going to mount a revolution - would that have been in line with the policy of the AWB?   Let us sum that up.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I suppose it depends upon each and everyone's personal opinion.   It was not a problem for me.

CHAIRPERSON: : I am asking you Mr Kloppers.   Are you saying that as far as you are concerned, it was in line with the policy of the AWB, or are you saying it was not in line with the policy?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I would say that it was in line with AWB policy.

CHAIRPERSON: : Well whether or not you saw it as it being in line with the policy, you were not concerned that it might prejudice the fact that your men take some liquor.   It might prejudice the operation.   Wrong decisions may be taken;  irresponsible things be done.   Didn't that worry you?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I did not see it as a problem and that's why I allowed it.
ADV. PRINSLOO:: Excuse me Mr Kloppers, did you allow them or did you initiate it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : If you see the offering of a drink as an initiation, then it would be but I just offered the drink to them.

CHAIRPERSON: : Were you in the South African Police?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No, South African Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: : Defence Force.   As far as I know, well I may be wrong.  As far as I know, taking liquor within the South African National Defence Force, before going on an operation, would have been viewed in very, very serious light.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : At the stage of my training and when I served duty in the South African Defence Force, I was not using alcohol at that stage.   I started using alcohol at a later stage.   I did not use alcohol then.   When I was in military training, I was not involved whether they were drinking or not drinking.   So I do not know what their attitude towards it was.

CHAIRPERSON: : Now what I am saying to you is that it occurs to me that certain provisions of the Military Discipline Code would not allow that kind of thing, that people who take liquor when they go on official duty.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is totally correct.   We need to take recognizance of the fact that the AWB was a paramilitary organisation and not a military instance.   There is a difference whereby certain things were allowed.   For example, you cannot force a person to do something.   If he did not want to be under your command, you could not force him.   Therefore, as I put it in the meeting, that it was not a problem to drink.

CHAIRPERSON: : But you said that it's quite a disciplined organisation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: : You said it was a disciplined organisation?   Members are disciplined?