Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.  When there was this conflict in the area I was one of the first people to arrive in the township and I recruited PAC members.  My family was thus affected because of that, because they were seeking me and because they could not find me they attacked my family.  I did not reside in one area specifically, so I moved around a lot and they could not find me.

MR MAPOMA: Who exactly was attacked in your family members?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Those who were attacked from my family were my mother's younger sister and she had two daughters, and they were also burnt and killed.

MR MAPOMA: And Mfriyi was arrested and charged for that, is it correct?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Although I do not remember correctly, because I was busy doing my organisation work, one day I'll be in the township and sometimes I would not be.  But I did hear about his being arrested.

MR MAPOMA: And he was not sentenced for that, is it so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I do not know.

MR MAPOMA: What political objective did you intend achieving by killing the deceased, if any?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I've explained, as a PAC member my intention was to return the land to its rightful owners which had been taken by the settlers and had to be returned to Africans who  is rightful owners, which led to the killing of this person who were factors or was the conflict between the ANC and the PAC.

MR MAPOMA: In your applications you said you killed the deceased because you felt you were the next to be killed because your family members were killed.  Did you say that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just give him the page, Mr Mapoma.

MR LAX: Page 9, paragraph 10(b).

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I've just explained, with regards to everything that happened it was because of the trauma that PAC members were going through at the time that I myself was being sought after, but unfortunately they could not find me which is why they decided to attack and kill my family.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MAPOMA: In page 9 of the bundle, paragraph 10(a), you say it was a self-defence, there was no political objective you achieved.  How do you explain that?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I've explained about the death of the deceased.  10(a)?

MR LAX: Yes.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I would like to explain here, this was a mistake, it's supposed to be now.  As you know, I am umZulu, although I have learnt the English language, but I'm still umZulu so I do not know the language very well.

MR MAPOMA: Who made the mistake?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I did.

MR MAPOMA: Turn to page 10 please.  In paragraph 11(b) you say
"As I stated in 10(b) that it was a self-defence and that three of my family members were already burnt to death."
Was that also a mistake?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, as I stated about the other paragraph, it is still a mistake.

MR MAPOMA: When did you realise this mistake?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I will explain is that I've realised it just now because I haven't read it.

MR MAPOMA: Was Mfriyi a member of the ANC?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know that as a fact?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, I'm sure of it.

MR MAPOMA: Was he occupying any leadership position in the ANC there in the area?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Although I cannot say it with certainty, because you only see a person in the area and how active they are in the area.  So I think the people who might now better are the ANC members in the area, because like myself, it is PAC members who know better about my positions.

MR MAPOMA: Was there any branch of the PAC in the area?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When were you given the order by Mandla to defend the area, the PAC members?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I will try to explain.  The order from Mandla was given to me in 1991, if I'm not mistaken, from the training that I underwent.  When it became apparent that ANC members were still continuing with their actions against PAC members, that is burning their houses down, that was when I contacted him and explained the situation in the township to him, and he said because of the situation I should try and identify the people who were responsible for this and try to stop them so that they do not attack PAC members again.

MR MAPOMA: Was Mandla resident in Bethal?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: No, he did not reside in Bethal.  I think he was the Highveld regional commander of the task force.

MR MAPOMA: In which region was he a commander?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Highveld.  Highveld region.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  Where is the Highveld region?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I think if I'm not mistaken it was areas like Bethal, Witbank, as far as I know.

MR MAPOMA: Would you turn to page 13 of the bundle please.  You say there in paragraph 11(b)
"Comrade Mandla of Cape Town gave the order."
Would you explain that?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I will do so.  He is from Cape Town, that is his home is in Cape Town.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying he was a commander of Highveld from Cape Town?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, that is as far as I know.

MR MAPOMA: So, he was commanding - do you want the Committee to believe that he was commanding the Highveld area from Cape Town?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: ...[no English translation]

MR MAPOMA: You said so.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, he stays in Cape Town, but I do not know Cape Town.  What I'm trying to explain is that he told me that he stays in Cape Town.

MR MAPOMA: But he was a commander in Highveld.  Did you know him as a commander of Highveld or as a commander of Cape Town?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I know him as a commander of the Highveld region.

MR MAPOMA: Then why did you say here that he was Comrade Mandla of Cape Town whereas you knew him, he was from Highveld when he commanded you?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I was trying to explain that his home is in Cape Town.  That is where he comes from.

MR MAPOMA: Did you know where he resided at the time he was a commander of Highveld?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I've explained, although I do not know the house specifically, but he is from Cape Town.

MR MAPOMA: No, what I want to find out from you is where did he stay in the Highveld area?

CHAIRPERSON: Or, Mr Sibiya, when you contacted him in connection with this problem in Bethal, where was he?  Where did you contact him?  Where was he when you spoke with him about the Bethal problem?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you spoke with him to explain to him that in Bethal there was a problem because ANC people were attacking members of the PAC, where you spoke to him about that and when he said to you, "Well, try and identify those people and see what you can do to stop them", where was Mandla at that stage when you had that conversation with him?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I tried to contact him in various ways.  Sometimes he would come to the township and sometimes I will meet him at Mbalenhle at a place called Mandela Village.

CHAIRPERSON: So, at that time he was in the Bethal area?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Do you mean at the time when all this happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I met him at Mbalenhle and I explained everything to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Now, did you know Mfriyi when you killed him?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: ...[no English translation]

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I've explained, I knew him when I was ordered to identify the culprits who were responsible for their actions against PAC members.  That is when I started knowing him.

MR MAPOMA: How did you identify him?