Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: What I disagree is that the first accused said we must leave the bus.  What I know is that I was the one who told them to let the women free because at the time they've already started firing shots.

MS MTANGA: Ms Ndlovu, can you tell this court what was your evidence in court, what did you tell the judge in court?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: I explained to the judge in court that I was the one who shouted first to ask these applicants to let us go.  I started screaming, shouting, telling them to let us go because we were breastfeeding.

MS MTANGA: So is it your evidence today that the summary on page 107 of your statement and your statement where it's not exactly what you said to the court and to the police?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: ...(inaudible)

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing more?

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.
	The fact of the matter is, Ms Ndlovu, that the women and the children were allowed to leave the bus, is that not so?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: That is so.

MR WILLS: And they were allowed to leave in circumstances where it could have been easy for the attackers to have killed them if they'd wanted to, not so?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes, it was easy for the applicants to kill us but one female was shot.

MR WILLS: Yes, I must put it to you Ms Ndlovu, that I find it strange that on both occasions you give evidence under oath, one in the form of a statement taken by an investigating officer who the judge commented had done his job well, Dectective Robson, and then you gave evidence in court to the same effect.  Now you're claiming that both the judge that's -and the investigating officer have made mistakes?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: I don't know whether it's their mistake but what I know is that I told them, even the interpreter was there, I even hold my breast to show them what I've said today to the attackers.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: I have one question I would like to ask you, just for the sake of clarity.  In your statement you refer to Sutani Gumede.

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes, I've spoken about him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the person who gave evidence before you?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: No, he died, he was shot in the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just one question, you said here in your statement that this man Sitani Gumede said to you
"Here are the dogs coming to kill us"

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: What was he saying to you?

CHAIRPERSON: What's she say?

MR LAX: "Here are the dogs coming to kill us."

CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't her statement?  This statements page 173.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, that's the wrong statement, I beg your pardon, it's in Mgwazi's statement but you heard that, did you?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes I heard that.

MR LAX: What did you understand him to mean?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: I don't know what exactly he meant because he was trying to run away, he was coming towards us.

MR LAX: Well when someone says "here are the dogs" surely you're referring to your enemies, isn't that how you would normally understand it?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: At the time I didn't think about that because I was scared, I thought I was going to die and leave my child behind.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: This must have been a very terrifying experience for you which happened a long time ago and you were asked to make your first statement just two days afterwards when you must still have been in a state of shock, is that correct?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes even now when I'm hearing gunshots I loose my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: All of us here have the deepest sympathy for you.  You may go now, thank you very much for having come.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, this ends the case of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can let us have as I said as I said earlier details of your amended request for amnesty for the second incident, but you need not bother to give us that in detail at this stage.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I submit respectfully that the applicants, all three applicants, have made out a case for amnesty.  I submit that they have satisfied the requirement of full disclosure insofar as they have disclosed all the relevant facts relating to the incident which they were involved in.  They are members of a political organisation.  The attacked in the context of political violence in the area, I don't think that can be disputed.  Mr Chairperson, on the full disclosure the only slightly disturbing aspect was the role of Master Shange and whether or not he had ordered the attack, I submit that it cannot be held that the applicants were less than candid in this regard.  They had disclosed his role fully, they were not trying to cover up for him, they disclosed openly and without reserve that he had in fact supplied weapons and that he had trained them and those are offences enough.  The only motivation that they could possibly have had for not mentioning his role was to cover up for him so that he could escape undetected and by disclosing the fact that he had trained them and that he had supplied them with weapons, they opened up this person to prosecution in any event so I cannot, with respect, see any reason as to why they wouldn't tell the full story.

CHAIRPERSON: Well wasn't their version largely that he said "Go on and do your job" and left the details to them?

MR WILLS: Yes, that's exactly right, thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: And one further thing Mr Wills, he congratulated them afterwards?

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR LAX: So, you know, they've associated him fully with the matter in any event.

CHAIRPERSON: Went back to him immediately with the guns they had just used, handed them to him and he said well done?

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Chairperson, I don't want to go into any detailed argument.  I submit very basically that this is purely a case where both the requirements of full disclosure and political motivation have been satisfied, with respect quite blatantly.  If there are any questions or any concerns that you or your fellow Committee Members have I'd be pleased to address them on that point.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll hear the evidence leader first and if anything arises we can come back to you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.
	It is the submission of the victims that the applicants in this matter have not given full disclosure.  They have lied about the political situation at Mkwali.  They have testified to the effect that there was political violence at Mkwali whereas all the victims in this matter or most of the victims in this matter came from Mkwali and are of the view that there was no such violence and as such their attack on males on the bus, riding the bus, was not justified, could not be politically justified.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what was it, can you tell us?  We have the Monitor saying there was political violence there, we have numerous statements in the bundle put before us of violence, these people now say it wasn't but there's no doubt that they stopped the bus, let the women off and started killing the men.  Can you suggest why if it wasn't political?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the view of the victims is that the clashes that could have been there could have been sporadic or confined to certain areas but it was not a common fact to them that there was such violence in Mkwali to justify killing of men who could be coming from Cuneal regardless of where they came from in Mkwali.

MR LAX: Ms Mtanga, there's no evidence before us to say what the cause of this attack was.  There's no evidence before us to deny that there was violence in the area.  Even Mr Gumede couldn't remember, he said there was violence but he couldn't remember what the cause of it was.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't ask us to rely on that evidence, can you?

MR LAX: That's the only closest thing to evidence before us.