Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-18

CHAIRPERSON: Is counsel ready to address us?

UNKNOWN: Honourable Chairperson, before I begin with 
the argument, I would like to request that the Committee receive 
the video tapes which arrived from the Security Council, which 
were referred to.  It is necessary that these cassettes are watched 
in order to determine what the value of the statements are which 
were put before the Committee.
	The circumstances under which they were made, and which 
led to the accuracy of these statements, and specifically in terms 
of the conditions which prevailed and it will clearly be indicated 
in our arguments and for that reason, it would be submitted as 
evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: These tapes have already been referred to in 
the evidence and if at the end of the hearing, we consider it 
necessary, we will view them unless your suggestion is that we 
should do that now, a suggestion which I am not particularly 
inclined to agree with at this stage.

UNKNOWN: Our suggestion is Mr Chairman, with respect, 
that the Committee should receive them as an exhibit.  I am not 
saying that we should view them today.

CHAIRPERSON: We will receive them, yes.  Mr Bizos, is there 
any objection to that?

GEORGE BIZOS: No Mr Chairman.  They should be, they are, I don't 
know precisely who is in possession of them now, but I would 
suggest that we identify them by the number of tapes and video's 
that there are, and that they remain in the possession of the 
Committee's secretariat, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication as to where these are 
at the moment?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, they are in my possession at the 
moment.  There are 21 tapes and may I suggest that during the 
adjournment, we can just take it up with Mr Mpshe, he can 
identify them, number them and then he will receive them.  Will 
that be in order?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that will be in order, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, you spoke of us admitting them as 
exhibits.  I assumed those are the tapes that we haven't seen?

UNKNOWN: Some were viewed partially Mr Chairman, and 
others were not viewed.  In respect of Mr Derby-Lewis for 
instance, that was never taken up with him, although they were 
made available after he testified.
	As you will recall with respect Mr Chairman, those tapes 
only became available after Mr Deetliefs arrived on the scene and 
Mr Brandt started his examinations.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, do you have a problem if we at a 
convenient time, we just look at them without necessarily 
accepting them as exhibits?

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you have a problem if we just have a 
look at them in due course, without necessarily accepting them as 
exhibits, as part of the record?

UNKNOWN: What my suggestion is Mr Chairman, receive 
them as exhibits, and it could be viewed by the Committee 
whenever it is convenient to the Committee, if it desires to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do carry on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I am rather concerned that this 
evidence has been in the possession of the applicants and their 
legal representatives over this long period of time.  I have no 
objection of them being put in as exhibits, but I submit that if 
there is anything specific which the applicants want to draw 
attention to, they must of necessity do so, they cannot put an 
onus on the Committee or on us, to say well, you know there 
maybe something there which was not referred to them in 
argument, that we've had no opportunity of checking whether it 
was there originally and without our being given an opportunity 
to make any submission in relation to it.
	That doesn't mean that I am objecting that they should go in 
as an exhibit, on the other hand, we cannot have a carte blanche 
that, or put an onus on the Committee to spend some 60 hours 
viewing things in order to try and pick something up either for 
the applicants or against the applicants.
	It is a task which I submit that the Committee cannot be 
asked to undertake.  If the applicants say that in tape number so 
and so, this is what appears and we ask you to take it into 
consideration, then we can deal with it.
	We can't leave it as a loose matter, it is no different to a 1 
000 page document, to say I hand it in but somehow or other 
there may be something in it that somebody may take into 
consideration at some time or another, it is not the way to run a 
case.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand and I imagine you accept that as 
the position as well?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with respect, we have already 
referred to them in our heads of argument, we have already 
requested in our heads of argument that these tapes ought to be 
viewed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you will refer specifically to the 
particular tapes that you want us to apply our minds to?

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman, and we also say 
that particular tape ought to be viewed in its context, pertaining 
to particular issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Chairman, just the other reason, the 
tapes were given to us, there was, at that stage the idea of having 
them transcribed.  It was taken up with the Department of Justice 
by our Attorney, and they said that the costs would be too great 
in order to have them transcribed, because they had to be re-
taped onto a tape cassette by the Broadcasting Corporation and 
there was a lot of problems involved and it could not be done Mr 
Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That is why we've got them back here now.  
Mr Chairman, those tapes were also in possession of Mr Bizos 
and his team as well, they viewed them as well, so it is no secret 
to no one.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... that this is the second or third time that it has 
been mentioned that the Department of Justice said that they will 
not authorise the expenditure.  The applicants have brought a 
case Mr Chairman.
	We do not know on what basis this is placed on record, and 
I will leave it at that Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: One other point, I have been trying to find it 
and I can't, I have a recollection that some tapes were in the 
possession of Mrs Derby-Lewis and there was a suggestion that 
she had erased portion of them?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, that was settled, that was settled Mr Chairman, 
in her favour, because what had happened was that we made that 
suggestion and in fact we apologised to her for it, because the 
tape had been copied in a wrong order.  What we expected to be 
at the end of the tape, was not there, but it did appear at another 
... And we may say Mr Chairman, I am reminded that I have been 
too generous to Mrs Derby-Lewis, I did not make the suggestion, 
Adv Brandt did.  We didn't have an opportunity of viewing it, he 
spent the whole night viewing them, and came back with this 
information which turned out to be wrong.

JUDGE WILSON: Was this one of the same tapes as you are 
now referring to?