Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   I will - Mr Chairman, will you just allow me please - or excuse me if I just refer to paragraph 18, before.  That was Ermelo apparently where he was left that night, not apparently for sure.  Then paragraph 19 refers to his journey from Ermelo to Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: That is paragraph 19 refers to Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   Ja, from - his trip from Ermelo to Vlakplaas.  (Pause)  Yes, as I say I can't comment specifically what went on, but that was for sure the Ermelo Security Branch people putting him in the boot of the car and driving to Vlakplaas with him.  That is what paragraph 19 is referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was always in your knowledge?

WITNESS:   That he was on his way to Vlakplaas, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: /Yes, but

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I am trying to say is the contents of the paragraph were in your knowledge?  You knew about this incident?

WITNESS:   That he was on his way to Vlakplaas, yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: About the assaults that ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the details in paragraph 19 about the nature of the assault and so on?

MR MSHE: The assaults as mentioned on paragraph 19.

WITNESS:   No, not at all.

MR MSHE: You didn't know.

WITNESS:   As I say, no knowledge of it at all.

MR MSHE: Good.  Paragraph 20?  Thanks, Mr Chairman.  Paragraph 20?

WITNESS:   That was now arriving at Vlakplaas, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: The assault therein?

WITNESS:   Let me just get to it please.  (Pause)  He was for sure not viciously assaulted.  I would accept that he would receive a clout or two.  That I would.  There is no du Plessis at Vlakplaas for sure, and never was in my time.  But some of the juniors could have done that, give him a clout or two, yes.  It's possible, quite possible, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: And the happening on paragraph 21?  Oh, you have already responded to this.

WITNESS:   Yes, I ... (intervention)

MR MSHE: As questioned by one of the Committee members.  Paragraph 22?

WITNESS:   I am just thinking of the - excuse me, Mr Chairman - the young Constable Johan, but I don't think he was du Plessis.  Not at all.  Paragraph 22.  (Pause)  No, the only thing I can testify to here in all honesty is that he was blindfolded and his hands and feet were shackled, chained together.  That's correct,

MR MSHE: /Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: You knew about this prior to seeing this on the letter?

WITNESS:   I knew to ... (incomplete)

MR MSHE: This has always been in your knowledge?

WITNESS:   That's correct.  That's correct.

MR MSHE: Now, why was this not disclosed?

WITNESS:   Well, as I say, I can't - the specific details.  I am sure - it's 15 years ago.  I am sure that Sergeant Schutte or anyone else, or maybe Mr David Tshikalanga, will be able to add many more to it.  So it's not a question that it was on purposely withheld from the Commission.  That was not at all the intention.

MR MSHE: Paragraph 24?

WITNESS:   23, "I requested water."   That could also be true, that he requested water but it was refused.

MR MSHE: 24?

WITNESS:   No, it's not at all true.  I would have seen it.  Not at all true.  It couldn't have happened without me observing it.

MR MSHE: And 25?

WITNESS:   No, it's not true, Mr Chairman.  As I say, one must remember it was already towards afternoon and the news was already out that the askaris were picked up in Swaziland, and I can assure you it was panic stations, big panic stations in the South African Police, and especially the people that were involved in this abduction of Mr Pillay.  So it would have been a very stupid act to add to his injuries, which at that stage could have been explained to the askaris, and to treat him in such a way.

MR MSHE: And 26?

WITNESS:   (Pause)  No, it's not true.

MR MSHE: 28?

WITNESS:   And 27 was also not true because Captain Jerry Fourie and Captain Andy Taylor were on their way

MR MSHE: /from Durban

MR MSHE: from Durban with the knowledge, if he had any knowledge, to check on it whether he had any knowledge.  And then page ... (incomplete)

MR MSHE: Page 5, paragraph 28.

WITNESS:   That was the journey.  The journey he's referring to is Vlakplaas to the observatory, which is about 15 kilometres apart, and it couldn't have taken a number of hours, because it was already arranged with Military Intelligence, so it's about a half an hour's drive at the most from - if it's that long.

MR MSHE: But you have already indicated to a question that was put to you that it's possible that a canvas bag was put over his head?

WITNESS:   Ja.  Ja, it is true.  He was blindfolded, that's correct.

MR MSHE: No 29?

WITNESS:   That could be true, because he was always shackled to something, and he was kept shackled onto objects that couldn't be moved.  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: And this was also not disclosed earlier on.

WITNESS:  Ja.  As I say, I said that in my presence at Vlakplaas he was shackled, hand and foot chained.  That I did say.  And he was kept in that position from trip to trip, from building to building, as we transferred him.

MR MSHE: Let's move to page 6, paragraph 36.

MR DE JAGER: Paragraph 30 I would like a comment on.

WITNESS:   He was not at all given water with any substance in at any time, Mr Chairman.  And the next page 31 - ag, the next paragraph, "Sounds of jet fighters."  Quite true, because we were very near to Waterkloof Air Force Base.  And paragraph 32, there was no warrant-officer present there.  It was Captain Andy Taylor, myself, a captain,

MR DE JAGER: /Captain

MR DE JAGER: Captain Jerry Fourie, and Major Kallie Steyn with Sergeant Tobie van Rensburg.  And the humiliation like in 33, quite true.  It could be possible.  I can't verify it in specific terms  And I'm sure that - it's strange to me that he specifically from all these people who interrogated him, whilst we call one by names, he remembered my name only, so I would think that he picked that up in the Harms Commission, because Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie was the main persons there.  I was more on the background as Dirk Coetzee.  And for sure we didn't refer to one another as Dirk Coetzee and Jerry Fourie, we said Jerry and Andy and Dirk and Struiker.  Words like that were used.

MR DE JAGER: Was there a lieutenant?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

MR DE JAGER: Was there a lieutenant, one of ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   No, there was not.  I am sure as - if we can just get back to my book 2 there, it was all captains.  I was already a captain, and Andy Taylor was with me in the same officer school in 1975, so he was a captain, and Jerry Fourie was our senior.  He was already a captain a year or two before us.  And Major Steyn, Kallie Steyn of the army, was a major.

MR DE JAGER: At that time could he ... (inaudible)

WITNESS:   No, he was a major for sure.  He was by far our senior.

MR MSHE: Can we move to paragraph 36 on page 6?

WITNESS:   35 is true.  36?   He slept that first night at the observatory.  That's how I could recall it too, because we slept there too.  He was left with Struiker in the bunker, chained and shackled to the - to some object that he couldn't be moved from.

MR MSHE: 37?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?  Sorry, Mr Chairman?

MR MSHE: /37?

MR MSHE: 37?

WITNESS:   That can be 100% true, yes, Mr Chairman.  I can't remember it specific, but as I say it sounds absolute true.

MR MSHE: 38?

WITNESS:   So the following morning would have been the 21st of February, after he arrived at the observatory very late that afternoon, maybe round about 5 o'clock on the 2nd of February (sic), Friday.  So the 21st, the morning with the water, was then a Saturday.

MR MSHE: "During the course of that day I was shackled to the cannon and questioned ... (inaudible) ... adjourned and began consuming alcohol."