Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

ADV PATEL: On page 9 (iv), you say the attack was directed against our opponent, you used the word "our", who do you mean the "our" was, that would be more than one person besides yourself, who were the other person or persons with you?

CONRAD NKUNA: As I was an ANC Youth League member, if one is a traitor, you conclude that he is an enemy of the whole organisation.  I referred to the organisation as I said "our".

ADV PATEL: Why did you not say the attack was directed against an ANC member who was a traitor and why did you use the word "our"?

CONRAD NKUNA: I said that because I believed that the person who was a traitor, is not an ANC member.  He is fighting against the ANC organisation.

ADV PATEL: Let's on the same page, let's turn to paragraph 10 (a).  You say ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you leave that, what do you mean by "opponent"?

CONRAD NKUNA: We meant people who were opposing the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But a person who opposes the ANC is not necessarily an agent or an informer or a sellout?  You may be an opponent of the ANC without being a sellout or in informer, isn't it?

CONRAD NKUNA: It might be so, but I had no knowledge of the definition of opponent, that it could be taken to such great lengths.  I used opponent as I understood it to mean opposing and fighting against.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you just simply say well, the attack was directed against an informer or a sellout?  That would have left no vagueness about the description of the person.

CONRAD NKUNA: As I've already said, the word opponent, I had no knowledge of its definition and that it may cause this confusion.  I had no intense knowledge of the fact that being an opponent, I thought you are a traitor, still it could mean that.

ADV PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, may I just interpose.  In your own understanding Mr Nkuna, how did you regard people who were collaborating with the State?  Did you not regard them as an opponent of the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: People who worked with the State, at the time collaborating with them, I looked at them as ANC opponents.

ADV PATEL: At the time, people were negotiating with the Nationalist Party and who were collaborating with the Government of the time in finding a solution, would you have regarded them also as opponents?

ADV TEE: I object.  Mr Chairman, any member of the African National Congress who was engaged in discussions with the National Party during the pre-election stage, can never said to be collaborating with the National Party.  Collaboration in English means where you are by definition operating as a traitor to your organisation.
	It cannot be said that any member of the African National  Congress who with the due and proper mandate, was engaged in talks with the National Party, was a collaborator.  No ANC members were collaborating, they were engaged in negotiations.
	If my learned friend can just rephrase the question.

ADV PATEL: Mr Chairman, my learned friend is giving a definition to the word collaboration in a very specific context.  People who worked with the Nationalist Government or the State in 1992, were they collaborating with the Government?

CONRAD NKUNA: I would say they were trying to reach a certain settlement in working together, so they may reach to a conclusive settlement.  I wouldn't say they were working for whom, but I will say that they were working together.

ADV PATEL: Would you agree with me that there were certain people within the ANC who were unhappy with members of the ANC working together with the Government in finding a solution?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PATEL: Would you have regarded those persons as opponents of the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: No.

ADV PATEL: You said the attack was directed against our opponent, right.  We know that the opponent was Mr Johannes Shabangu.  Did you know that attacking a person with the intent to kill, is a criminal conduct?

CONRAD NKUNA: I knew that that was criminal for that, but if that person was also a danger and pose some kind of danger to you politically, you had to take an action.

ADV PATEL: How did you know that Mr Shabangu posed as a danger?

CONRAD NKUNA: From the information that I had already gathered, or information given by Soli.  From the information that I was already given by Soli.
	I started there to suspect him as a traitor or an informer.

ADV PATEL: And simply because you suspected Mr Shabangu to be an informer or a traitor, therefor he had to be attacked?

CONRAD NKUNA: It is not me who said he shall be attacked, but Soli suggested it because they were at Joe's house and they were there to see that that kind of an operation is being undertaken to attack an informer or a traitor.

ADV PATEL: What was Soli's rank within the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: I wouldn't say he held some kind of position, but I would say he was an MK member.

ADV PATEL: Was he a junior MK member or high up in the command structure of the MK?

CONRAD NKUNA: According to my knowledge, he was in the junior ranks.

ADV PATEL: And here is a junior member of the MK who simply informs you that Mr Shabangu is suspected as a sellout, an informer and you are ready to go and attack him?

CONRAD NKUNA: They told me that they were up to a mission of attacking the traitors, it was not me who decided that he should be attacked.  We were talking and they told me why they were there, the mission that they had to accomplish.

ADV PATEL: Your brother, Mr Joe Nkuna, was the Provincial General Secretary of the ANC, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV PATEL: Did you verify the information that you received from Soli and Derick with your brother?

CONRAD NKUNA: After that we discussed that in his presence, and he agreed to what they were saying as well and said it is true, it is like that.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Patel, is it accepted then by you that at that stage his brother was a Provincial Secretary?

ADV PATEL: It is a confusion here because at that time, he could have been suspended or expelled and I think we went through that dilemma last time and that emerges primarily from the magistrate's judgement.

ADV DE JAGER: Now you are putting it to him that his brother was in fact the Provincial Secretary?

ADV PATEL: Let me put it as a former Provincial Secretary who was suspended or as a Secretary who was suspended or expelled, let me clarify that.  May I proceed?
	Do you know whether your brother worked with Mr Shabangu in the ANC structures?

CONRAD NKUNA: That I know.

ADV PATEL: Were they close at any time together, do you know that?

CONRAD NKUNA: I may say that, that they were close, but as to how close, I can't say because he used to come quite often at our house to see Joe.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt.  Earlier on - just note that point, you will come back to it, but earlier, at the beginning, Mr Black mention was made of Mr Mojapelo in some context in these proceedings.  I notice that he is here and I wish we could be informed as to whether he is here in the capacity that you indicated that he might be here for the purpose of record.