Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: We were paid through the bank and I didn't have a bank account.  Is that what you wanted to know?

MR WILLIAMS: Is that now ...

ISGAK HARDIEN: Council.  My money was paid into that.

MR WILLIAMS: Did the CCB pay you into the bank account?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, it was my own money which was paid in.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, did the organisation pay you in cash at all times?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you in turn pay that money into his account?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Then which money went into his account?

ISGAK HARDIEN: My salary that I earned every month.

MR WILLIAMS: From the CCB?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The word that I did for the Council.

MR LAX: He was a supervisor at the Athlone Swimming Pool.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Did Nasmie Passier know that you were involved?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: And I think one of the applicants said that at a certain stage you said to them that a Coloured woman was going to help you to plant the tree, or that a Coloured woman was also involved, do you know anything about that?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpretation was in "planting  the tree".

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, it was my own negligence.

CHAIRPERSON: The bomb.

MR LAX: It's a nice Freudian slip, isn't it?

MR WILLIAMS: Planted the bomb.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I don't know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: But would you have told anybody that a Coloured woman assisted you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: But if you had said anything like that - you said that you cannot recall, but if you had said that, who would that Coloured person have been?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know to which Coloured person you are referring.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a woman who would have assisted you at any stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.  If I could recall I would be able to tell you.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a possibility that a lady would have assisted you with the commission of this offence, but that you would not be able to recall the name?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall, Mr Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a problem remembering things, Mr Hardien?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, who is Nasmie Passier?  Who is this person that Mr Williams mentioned, Nasmie ...

ISGAK HARDIEN: He played soccer for my team.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: You and him spent quite a lot of time together at that point.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: He was quite a young man, he was approximately 15 or 16, I think.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was he 15 or 16 and had a bank account?

MR WILLIAMS: The Chairperson asked a question, will you respond to that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: You spent nearly every day together during that time.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: If I recall correctly, you told me that at a certain stage you went to South West Africa or Johannesburg, did Nasmie know that you were going to these places?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know if he knew.

MR WILLIAMS: But didn't he ever ask you what you were doing there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, he never asked me.

MR WILLIAMS: But I'm assuming that he knew that you were going there.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot respond, I don't know if he knew, because if I left I just said: "I'll see you again."

MR WILLIAMS: But can you remember that many people in Kewtown knew that you were going either to South West Africa or to Johannesburg?  I personally also knew and the statement is that many people in Kewtown knew that you were going there.  Is that correct or not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Many people knew because I said I was going, or I said that I was going, but not anybody knew that I was going to South West Africa or Johannesburg specifically.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, when you were in South West Africa, did you by any chance phone Eunice or someone at the Early Learning Centre, and tell them that you were in South West Africa and that Eunice had to give a message to Nasmie?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you phone anybody in the community or anybody else, with the exception of Slang, to tell them that you were in South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I didn't even tell my own people where I was.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know the name Anton Lubowski?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.  At a much later stage, as it appeared on the news, I came to hear of Anton Lubowski and such things.

MR WILLIAMS: So at the stage when Anton Lubowski was assassinated, you heard over the news that he had been killed?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not at the same time, but I did hear later that Anton Lubowski had been shot.  As I watched television, the story unfolded.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you know who Anton Lubowski was?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I didn't know the man.

MR WILLIAMS: But I know that you didn't know him personally, but didn't you know to which organisation he belonged and that he was possibly an enemy of the State?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I didn't know.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm just asking you this because when we heard - or before I say this, is it true that before his death, you were in South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't even know when the man died, I don't know in which year, on what day, in which month.

MR WILLIAMS: But you heard that the man had died, you heard so on the news, isn't that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, the news was covered with the story.

MR WILLIAMS: Before you heard that report, were you there before, perhaps several weeks of months before that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't even know in which year or during which month I was in South West Africa, if he were shot before or after, I don't know.  I beg your pardon, I don't even know how many years ago he was shot.

SIBANYONI: But when the story came in the newspapers, was it after you had been to South Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall whether it was before or after, I simply cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Were you in Namibia when Lubowski shot dead?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't know, I don't know whether it was before or after his death, I cannot recall, because if I say it was a day before his death, then I must have seen how they shot him or I must have known when they shot him.  I don't even know when they shot him, I don't know during which year, during which month.

MR WILLIAMS: But is it true that at a certain stage W/O Barkhuizen, took possession of certain documents in your house?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Could you repeat that please?

MR WILLIAMS: Did W/O Barkhuizen at any stage take possession of, or confiscate documents from your house?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know, I wasn't there.  I beg you pardon, I don't even remember the name that you've uttered.  I don't even know him.

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps I could refer you to Barkuizen's statement and this in bundle B, page 238.  Gakkie, would you dispute if Barkhuizen says that he obtained documents in a briefcase, or that the documents were found in your house and that these documents stated that on the 10th of August 1989, you went to Windhoek?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot dispute that because I wasn't there when he came to fetch these things.

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, I would just like to make a possible amendment, Barkhuizen's statement refers to documents which were obtained in the boot.  I don't know if Mr Hardien will be able to assist with that, but that is what the affidavit says, it does not state that the documents were obtained in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Rheede.  Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Perhaps I could offer more insight on this to Mr Williams.  When I was arrested my car was parked at the garage and I don't know who came to fetch my car or what happened, but I cannot say who Mr Barnard is.  I wasn't there, I was away.