Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, we did not see them again.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know or did you see where Doctor and Jabulani fired shots with their shotguns?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see them shooting.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from yourself, Doctor and Jabulani, do you know if other people also had shotguns?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The person that I remember seeing was Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from him - let me ask you, did you know exactly what weapon each of the attackers had with them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, what is the question?

MR STRYDOM: If he knew the weapons of each one of the attackers.

CHAIRPERSON: There were approximately 300 attackers the evidence indicates, so do you want him to tell us what each one of these men had?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I know that the answer is obviously no, but if that is the situation he won't know if other people also had shotguns.  That is basically the point I want to make.  I can just put it straight away.
	Do you know if some of the other attackers had shotguns with them?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, it was quite a large number of people.  The only person that was in front of me was Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: Just two or three.
	Who related to you the event that Nosenga was on the stage at Ulundi?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: Who related to you the event that Nosenga was on the stage at Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was Joseph Radebe.

MS TANZER: Did Nosenga tell you about this when he returned from Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, Mr Nosenga did not mention that to me.

MS TANZER: Did you not ask him questions about being on the stage in Ulundi?  I mean it's quite an honour.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not ask him question, the people were just discussing.  I did not ask him a question.

MS TANZER: Did he ever tell you that at the hostel you people were thanked for the good work done in Boipatong, by Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi himself?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Now on your version Nosenga joined the hostel after the attack, that is correct right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Would you say that he got his information relating to the attack from his fellow roommates and hostel dwellers?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I think he got that information from the other hostel dwellers.

MS TANZER: Do you think that in fact he pieced together the attack on Boipatong from information he obtained, resulting in the statement?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MS TANZER: Then is it not correct that even if your version is correct and true,  you are not relating an important fact to this Committee and that is that the police were involved in the attack of Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The police were not present and the soldiers were not present during the attack at Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Were you part of Victor Keswa's hit-squad or gang?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair, just two quick questions.
	You said that a number of you went out to the robots early in the morning on the 18th when you suspected some sort of an attack, did I hear it correctly?

MR LAX: How many of you went out there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was quite a large number of people.

MR LAX: More than 50, more than 100?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I think it was more than 100.

MR LAX: And how did you get marshalled out, who brought you together so that you knew about these things that you went out there?  In other words, who called you together?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was Mr Damarra.

MR LAX: And that's when you were re-issued with your shotgun?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: The second issue was the question of Nosenga, you were questioning him and you said they came and fetched him to the Committee, do you remember that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember that.

MR LAX: Where did they fetch him from?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He was fetched from the room.

MR LAX: So after you chaps had finished talking to him  you went back to the room?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR LAX: Did you go back to the room after you had finished talking to him or asking him questions etc?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we went back to the room.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: You say that you went to the hostel for the first time on the 17th of June.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Had you been to the hostel before that date?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: Did you have friends staying at the hostel, did you know anyone before going to the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Who did you know before going to stay there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: There's a gentleman called Tabang that I used to know and one gentleman called Bono, the other one was Faltein.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, but were you a frequent visitor to the hostel before staying there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was not a frequent visitor there at the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: And before the attack were you active in politics?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: And this difference between you and Doti and Skosana, why do you think that it was a political difference?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I knew very well that Skosana and Doti were well-known people at Zone 12, each and everyone at Zone 12 knew them at the time.

ADV SIGODI: No, but why do you ascribe your difference with them to being a political difference?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It is solely because they said Stals was a member of IFP, that was Smith.

ADV SIGODI: But when you went to join the hostel you were not an IFP member.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was not yet a member.

ADV SIGODI: You joined on that day.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Did you submit your name to somebody, saying that you were joining the IFP?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, though I cannot remember the name of the person but I was issued a card.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you join the IFP?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It's because the people were accusing me of being an IFP member.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but was it necessary to join as an IFP member on that day?  Let me put it this way, you were only seeking  refuge in the hostel, is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: It wasn't necessary for you to join as an IFP member on that particular day, is it correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, there was no need for me to join the IFP.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you choose that day to join and become an IFP member?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: In the township already they were accusing me of being an IFP member.

ADV SIGODI: Did you agree with the IFP policies?  Did you know the IFP police?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not know.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know who were the leaders of the IFP?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I knew the leader.

ADV SIGODI: Who was the leader?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was Doctor Mangasotho Buthelezi.

ADV SIGODI: Alright.  And you say that when you joined the group to go and attack in Boipatong, you were not really keen or deep down in you you were not for the attack on the SDUs, is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat your question?

ADV SIGODI: You say that you did not align yourself with the idea of attacking the Self Defence Units in Boipatong on that night?  You didn't know anything about the attack before then.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I knew nothing about the attack.