Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

CHAIRPERSON: It is clear that you do not want to answer the question.  It's a simple question, would it have been incorrect to say they did not know that the armed struggle had ceased?

XHOLILE TJABANE: We were at the meeting.  I told them that the armed struggle was suspended.  They were told by the members of the camp command and the regional commanders.  I had already explained that.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be incorrect to say that they did not know that the armed struggle had ended?  Why don't you want to answer the question?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I think I have simply answered the question, that I had addressed the matter with the regional commanders and their structures that the armed struggle was suspended.  I was not present when they were telling them.  And the information that I got from the intelligence was that all the forces were told.  I do not know that at that particular time as they were addressed maybe someone had gone to the toilet or somewhere when that was mentioned, but I knew that all of them were there at the camp, all the forces were there at the camp.

CHAIRPERSON: Well all I can say is that it appears to me blatantly obvious that you don't want to answer the question.  Carry on.

MR LAX: Sorry, Chair, if I could just intercede you.
	Mr Tjabane, you're being asked a simple question.  Your evidence has been that these people all were told and you had reports that that camp was told and that you say that Dumisane Ncamazana was there, that you seem to know, and therefore he must have known, do you understand that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, he was present, he could have heard the message.

MR LAX: Just keep your answers to a simple yes or no.  You go on a long story and it doesn't help anybody.  Now you're also been confronted with the evidence of Letklapa, which is that as far as he knew they hadn't been informed.  Do you understand that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I want to respond to what I know ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just listen to the question before you go on a long story again.  I'm trying to help you answer this question.  Don't worry about, I'm not here to trick you, just listen to the questions.  You've heard what Letklapa said at Court, yes or no?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I heard that.

MR LAX: Now in the light of what you know to be the case, what was said at Court must be wrong, yes or no?  It's as simple as that.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I cannot answer for Letklapa because it looks like the people who were involved in this I had already responded for them but I cannot respond for what Letklapa said, to what Letklapa said.  All I know is that Dumisane was at that particular meeting.

MR LAX: I give up.

CHAIRPERSON: Will this be a convenient stage?  We'll take the short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

XHOLILE TJABANE: (s.u.o.)

MS COLLETT: Mr Tjabane, is it correct that reports of missions that took place in the units or under people's commands were actually reported to the Chief of Operations through the administrator?

XHOLILE TJABANE: The administrator would get a report from the field commanders and it would go up to the regional commander.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that ultimately the Chief of Operations, that is Mr Letklapa, would be aware of all the operations that took place by APLA soldiers?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Now would I be correct in saying that an attack such as the Bahai Faith Church attack would have been in line with APLA policy?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Although this was done unlawfully, but he knew that something had happened.

MS COLLETT: I think you must have misunderstood my question.  What I'm saying is, an attack for example like the Bahai Faith Church attack, would that have been in line with APLA policy?

XHOLILE TJABANE: What I'm saying is, the armed struggle was suspended at that time, but although it was suspended he heard that there was something that happened in Bahai.

MR LAX: Sorry, you're missing the point again.  What Advocate Collett is asking you is - forget about the cessation of the armed struggle, forget about that part of it, if this had happened before the cessation of the armed struggle, would it have been in line with PAC or APLA policy?  That is what she is asking you.

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Would it have been an instruction that an APLA soldier would have been expected to carry out?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Now was it also APLA policy that, for want of a better word, "buti" for example a car or money that had been taken in an attack such as this would have been taken back to the commander?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Now evidence was tendered in the High Court case, and it has been the evidence of the two applicants before this Committee that after this mission had taken place, particularly at the Bahai Faith Church, they went back to you and reported the success of this mission and handed a car over to you, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, that is correct.  I called them after this, after hearing about this operation and I asked them how this happened because they heard that the armed struggle was suspended.  They didn't hand over any car or anything.  I just called them because I heard about this incident.

MS COLLETT: You see the evidence of Mandla Palapala at the trial, and I'm referring to page 45 of the bound volumes of the Court record, it's volume 1, he said that after they had left the Bahai Church it was dark and they arrived in Butterworth
"We went to a township in Butterworth called Coloured.  That was where our commander resided, Jimmy Jones, as he was known."
And it appears that after that incident, if one reads further, that report was made to you or be it not by Palapala, and that the vehicle that was taken from the Bahai Church was left with you.  Is that true or not?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is not true.

MS COLLETT: So what Mandla Palapala said in the trial Court and what the applicants have testified before this Commission is untrue, is that what you are saying?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, it is untrue.

MS COLLETT: Now ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Did you see any vehicle at all, Mr Tjabane?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I didn't see any vehicle.

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you anything about a vehicle?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I just heard that they repossessed a car.  I didn't see that car.  Those that I called, because I called them after hearing this and then I talked to them.  I didn't see any car.

MS COLLETT: Where did you call them from?

XHOLILE TJABANE: They were in the camp and I was in 34 Ninsa Street.

MS COLLETT: What were they doing at the camp?  Because I understood your evidence earlier to say that you'd told them that the armed struggle had been suspended and that they were to go home.

XHOLILE TJABANE: When they came back they went back to the camp because not all of them had already left the camp.  We had organised for them to go home, so others were still behind.

MS COLLETT: But this was in March and you had given these instructions at the end of January, according to you.

XHOLILE TJABANE: We didn't have enough money.  We were raising funds for them to be sent home because others were staying in far places.

MS COLLETT: You see, with respect, I don't understand this because these two applicants lived in Mdantsane, the very place to which they went to do the Bahai Faith attack. - with APLA money.

XHOLILE TJABANE: After this operation Dumisane Ncamazana together with the other one went back to the camp because they knew that there were people who were still in the camp.

MS COLLETT: Why did you ask how Mbambo was recruited if at that stage there was no need to recruit anybody for APLA as it had disbanded?