Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR BERGER: It's the meeting addressed by Mr Themba Khosa, I believe it was on Friday 19th June 1992 and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first meeting that he's alleged to have addressed subsequent to the attack on Boipatong?

MR BERGER: Correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, listen very carefully.  There's a meeting that is supposed to have been addressed by Mr Themba Khosa subsequent to the attack in Boipatong, do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: At that meeting - what was the date of the meeting again, the meeting which was held after the attack on Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I was present at the meeting but I did not hear anything that is being said here about Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: That means that you did not hear the allegation that some of the deceased were IFP supporters?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not hear anything about that.

MR BERGER: Let's leave then the leaders of the IFP in Boipatong and let's turn if we could to the leaders of the IFP in Kwamadala.  Can you please tell the Committee what were the structures, the leadership structures, in Kwamadala at the time of the massacre June 1992?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: First of all I would say there was a Senior Committee and the youth and there were also people who had fled to the hostel to seek refuge after their houses were burned down.

MR BERGER: I talking about committees that had been set up at Kwamadala Hostel, there was the Senior Committee, there was the Youth Committee, were there any other committees?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I don't know about any other committee.

MR BERGER: And who was on the Senior Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I can say here is that I still remember Mr Khumalo and Mr Zulu, these are the people who were part of the Senior Committee.  It was not easy for me to know others because there were many people there and I did not know some of them.

MR BERGER: Who was the leader of the Senior Committee, was that Prince Vanana Zulu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Mr Khumalo, what was his first name?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know his first name, I just know his surname - Mr Khumalo.

MR BERGER: The Youth Committee - who was the chairperson?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The chairperson was Mr Buthelezi.

MR BERGER: That is the first applicant, Qambelani Buthelezi?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: The Vice-Chairperson was you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As you have just explained.

MR BERGER: And who else was on the Committee?
	He has already said, Chairperson, he does not know who was on the Senior Committee - on the Youth Committee, who else was a member of the Youth Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There were several of them having come from different places, I cannot say exactly who they were - it was just a youth thing.

MR BERGER: I'm sure you can give the names of the fellow members of your Youth Committee, particularly since you were one of the leaders of that committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It is very difficult for me to know the names because I was not concentrating on politics, I had a job to take care of and therefore the one person that I knew as very close to me was Buthelezi himself as chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Qambelani Buthelezi was the chairperson of the Youth Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As chairperson of that committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.  We had the youth from Kwamadala Hostel, the ones that I still remember, there was another boy called Zwele, his name is Tree, I cannot remember the others, there were many of them, I don't have all of their names in my memory.  There were many of them who were there.  I don't know whether you're referring to the number of the youth as members or the number of the committee members.

CHAIRPERSON: I want the number of the committee members.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There was chairperson, his deputy and the secretary.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any other portfolios?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] consisting of three persons?
There's the chairperson, the vice-chairperson and then the secretary?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the secretary?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Tree was the secretary.

MR BERGER: If those were the only three members of the committee, why when I asked you who were the other members of the committee did you say that you couldn't remember?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explained here, Chairperson, I found it confusing as to exactly what you wanted, I was not exactly sure what you wanted.  Now I understand seeing that the judge has just explained.

MR BERGER: It confused you when I asked who were the members of the committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I got confused.

CHAIRPERSON: What is saying is that, as I understand his evidence, is that he was confused whether reference was being made to the committee or to the youth as a whole.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, again I must put it to you that you are deliberately shielding people and I can think of two reasons why you might be doing that.  The first is you might be trying to protect them because they haven't applied for amnesty or the other is that you are afraid to mention certain names because that might put you in danger, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It is not like that, I am not afraid this moment.  When I applied for amnesty, I knew that it would not help me really to hide peoples names, hold them back, because my parents are suffering, nobody is taking care of them now.

MR BERGER: How often did the Youth Committee meet?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We would meet three times a month perhaps.

MR BERGER: To discuss what?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We would discuss things such as encouraging other people to come and join our organisation because other people only had bad information about our organisation.  We wanted people to join us as well as they do other organisations like the ANC etc.

MR BERGER: And were you part of this recruitment drive?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I was part of the recruitment drive.

MR BERGER: Did you liaise with other committees of the IFP Youth in other hostels or other townships.  Was there any communication between you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, we did try to liaise with other committees but we could not because we were chased away by the police.

MR BERGER: Besides the Senior Committee and the Youth Committee, there's another structure of the IFP and Kwamadala you've forgotten to mention, Mr Mthembu and those were the hit squads.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, it's just drawn to my attention that there's a last portion of the evidence of the witness which was not interpreted, namely that the police did not want us in Boipatong, is that what you said?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Said that the police did not want you in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is what I am explaining because when we arrived at Boipatong trying to recruit the youth, the police came in large numbers and drove us away until we arrived at Madala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Did you report this to other structures of the IFP in the Transvaal as it then was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We reported to the people with whom we were at Kwamadala Hostel, indicating to them that the police did not want us in the township.

MR BERGER: Did you say to them would you be communicating with the leaders on the Senior Committee, Prince Zulu and Mr Khumalo?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you expected them to take that up with perhaps other structures of the IFP in the province or maybe even in Ulundi, would that be correct?