Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Sorry, Moegamat, can I just ask you a bit more slowly.  Are you saying that your feet were put together ...

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Yes, I was ...

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: ... and then you were ...

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: ... hung up. I was hung up in the air.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: hung up upside down.

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay.

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Upside down and then I was beaten all over my shoulders and my back and on the other occasion I was, like, widely spread, my legs widely spread, my arms widely spread, tied in four different directions and I had grass thrown between my hair and my private parts and had a turtle walking over it, pulling for the grass, obviously pulling my hair with.  Yes, that was two of the other experiences and the one with the black bag was put over my head and a rope was put, I do not know exactly where I was, because I was taken away from Macassar Police Station and I was hung up with the rope around here, my arms and then I was airborne.  I did not know where I was and today I still do not know where I was then, but I was told this is the highest building in Cape Town and if I am not prepared to talk, they are going to drop me and I told them, I already told you, do what you want to do.  If you want to charge me, charge me.  If you are not going to charge me, let me go.  I am not prepared to work with you, because I have some responsibilities towards my brothers and sisters being held there.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: That time you were airborne, as you say, they actually let you out of the building with the rope around your chest.  Is that what happened?

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: I will tell it to be, like, kind of, like, direct with you.  We were not far away from Macassar Police Station.  I knew, I know we had a long, kind of, drive, but I was, like, something around my eyes, I mean I could not see before they put the bag over my head.  I could not see where we were going, but I believe we just drove around there the whole time.  They making me want to believe that we were in Cape Town, because my trip back to Macassar Police Station, it only took about ten minutes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Were you tied, they tried to drown you at some point?

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Hey?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Were you tried, did they try to drown you at some point?

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: No.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: In the toilet?

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Yes, it was on the morning, the sixth of January, when I was arrested.  I wanted to pee and my head was put down the toilet pot, the chain was pulled and I was told if you want to do anything, you must ask permission, because I wanted to go in there, go and pee.  I did not even get the chance to do that and the same thing happened to my brother.  He was also arrested with me, because they asked us this particular question where a friend of ours, also a member of the BMW, he was arrested and he was released again, but then they looked for him again, where he was and I told them, be realistic, how can I tell you where Roger are if I am here with you and then I turned around, I went to the toilet.  I wanted to go and pee and that is when it happened.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: As a 14 year old and all of these things happening to you it must have been terrifying?

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Yes, that is why, I will say once again, I will repeat what Riefaat Hattas said earlier.  I want to urge these children who are sitting out here, even these parents, to, like, tell the children.  The chances they are getting in life, they must grab it with both hands.  I mean, we also had the chance, but instead we chose to fight a battle that we knew we were going to win some day, irrespective how long and how hard this battle is going to be for us.  We knew one day we are going to overcome this battle and so we did.  We won the battle, but in our hearts and minds we know there is still a struggle.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Moegamat, thank you.  Sorry, you were still busy talking.

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: No, it is okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you.  I do not have anymore questions to ask you.  I will hand over to the Chair.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Madam Chair, thank you.  Moegamat, I, just thinking as you were talking and wondering.  You know you were 11 years, 12 years.  As adults when we go through trauma we have some resources, we know how to defend against it, but somehow for you, as a child, being immature psychologically, but mature in your strength, you know, amazingly mature in your strength to be determined to do and engage what you chose to do is just most amazing and in a way that gave you strength, but at the same time there was a certain immaturity psychologically, just not having the strength developmentally at that time to know, to have resources built for yourself for your adulthood and I am wondering how has that experience effected you in your adulthood or how is it, how has it strengthened you?

MOEGAMAT QASIM WILLIAMS: Yes, I will say in my adulthood, thanks to my commander of the former BMW, Faried Farels, who is also sitting in the audience, I would like this chance and opportunity to, like, thank him again for, like, meeting up with some people, American people and they are offering these kind of courses and these people, to some extent, they helped me forgot about what has happened in the past and I how to, like, try and cope with the future.  I mean, there is still a lot of things.  As I said earlier, we won the battle, but there is still a struggle going on.  I mean, some people ask, where is the struggle going on, but we know where the struggle is going on and what is happening and also, you know, as I said, thanks Faried.  These American people have really helped me greatly with attending these courses.  They have three courses, like, and that is one thing that I can, like, say I will, fitted myself into society again and, I mean, being able to do the things what I really wanted to do and, I mean, okay, I am unemployed, I do not have any income.   I am doing community work and doing it voluntarily and, I mean, it is kind of, like, hard sometimes not being able to go back home.  I mean, I am married, got one child, got married in 1995, 30th of September.  I mean, I, to me sometimes it is, like, hard especially on a Friday night, because my wife is working, I am not.  Sometimes on a Friday night she ask me to you want a packet of cigarettes and then I feel so bad, my direct answer is, no, I do not want anything and I would walk out, just turn around and walk out, not saying anything further.  I mean, without explaining to her why my behaviour is like that and that type of thing.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: It is for me to thank you for coming today and for sharing this incredible story with us.  It is really incredible to, for any of us to visualise what a young 12 and 13, 14 year old person has to go through, but thanks for giving us a glimpse of what that must have meant, it must have been like for you then and for me just to re-emphasise that many of the things that you did were not in self-interest, you did it because you felt you had a duty to perform, you felt that you were fighting for a just cause and I want to salute you for that, I want to honour you for that and hold you up as an example of how young people have been prepared to sacrifice their youth and their childhood for the struggle in this country.  I honour you.