Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

MR VISSER: Chairperson, the last applicant for whom we appear is W/O Lawrence Gerald Wasserman, whom we call to the stand.  He will give his evidence in English.  We beg leave to hand up to you a summary of his evidence and we would propose that that be marked Exhibit F.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be so marked.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  He has no objection to taking the prescribed oath.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Please take a seat, Mr Wasserman.  You're an applicant in this incident, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Have you perused Exhibit A?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And do you find yourself in agreement or disagreement with the contents of Exhibit A?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I concur with the contents.

MR VISSER: And you ask that that be incorporated in your evidence, together with references to other evidence which Exhibit A contains, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You have previously given evidence before another Amnesty Committee in the application with regard to Ndwandwe, the KwaMashu 3, and Pumezo Ncgweni, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: If you will please turn to page 2, and will you inform the Committee what your knowledge and participation was in the present incident.  You first of all refer to the evidence of Col Vorster.  You have also heard the evidence of Col Botha this morning, in regard to the background of the violence in Natal and the situation in Swaziland, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you also find yourself in agreement with that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I do.

MR VISSER: Would you please continue at page 2, paragraph 2, of Exhibit F.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
"I was instructed by Col Botha from Durban, to accompany him on an operation to Swaziland.  I was informed by him that there was information to hand that an important Umkhonto weSizwe member, Dion Cele, had indicated that he would be willing to work for the Security Branch.  And our mission would be to abduct Dion Cele from Swaziland, bring him to the RSA and attempt to turn him and recruit him and place him back."

MR VISSER: Right.  What did you know about Cele, what were you told?
MR WASSERMAN
"We knew that Dion Cele was a member of border work, attached to the Natal machinery.  He lived in Manzini and he was undergoing night school at Scot, at a technical college in Manzini in Swaziland.
		And as a border worker he was responsible for the infiltration of MK into Natal and the subsequent movement of weapons with those units and responsible for acts of terror within this province."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR WASSERMAN
"I was informed that there was an informer who was handled by Mr Vorster ..."
...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Goodwill Sikhakane?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Goodwill Sikhakane.  I learnt the name at a later stage.
"... and he would assist in bringing forward Dion Cele."

MR VISSER: Right.  You travelled with Botha from Durban in a kombi, is that correct, to Amsterdam?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you go in with Botha and Vorster on the reconnaissance trip?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Before the abduction was performed?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR VISSER: Right.  Did you stay behind in Amsterdam?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And then on the next occasion when Swaziland was entered, did you then accompany them?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell us about that?
MR WASSERMAN
"Col Botha and I took the kombi in.  We entered legally, proceeded to Manzini to the George Hotel and there linked up with Sikhakane."

MR VISSER: Yes?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Form there ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Did he come, get into the kombi with you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And at one stage, was he asked to take over the driving of the kombi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
"He then drove to a spot near the main gates of the Scot, of the technical training college in Manzini."

MR VISSER: And what did you do, where did you go?
MR WASSERMAN
"I and Mr Botha then took up hiding places in the rear of the kombi and we were covered by some large cardboard boxes."

MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN
"Shortly after standing off outside there, Dion Cele came forward and he entered the vehicle by the sliding door."

MR VISSER: Why not through the passenger door?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He couldn't enter through the left-hand door as we had jimmied that lock to make it useless, thereby enforcing him to use the sliding door, giving us the sign that he was indeed in the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now I may have understood this incorrectly, judging from what Mr Botha says.  You say in paragraph 6
"He went to sit on the passenger's seat next to Sikhakane."
Is that the position?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think that is correct position, yes.

MR VISSER: So I did understand you correctly.  You differ from Mr Botha, who says that he sat on the seat behind the driver.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not too sure where he was.  I do realise - I then pulled him over once we had moved off.  Sikhakane drove off.  There was no indication from Cele that he was aware of our presence in the vehicle.  I then, and Col Botha, then moved the box and grabbed hold of Cele and pulled him over to where I was, to the rear of the vehicle.

MR VISSER: What did he do?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He shouted and he kicked and he struggled.

MR VISSER: Yes, what did you do?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I used force.  I smacked, I slapped him.

MR VISSER: You say you slapped and punched him a few times.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Would that be correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And spoke and shouted at him.

MR VISSER: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And afterwards he became quiet when he realised that - I had told him that we're policemen from South Africa, and upon that he relaxed, he then quietened down.

MR VISSER: Well he became quiet.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He became quiet.

MR VISSER: Probably didn't relax, but ...

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well he became quiet.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Go on.
MR WASSERMAN
"We then returned to the Nerston area.  Sikhakane stayed behind.  Col Botha drove the kombi.  I was still with Mr Cele and we drove out illegally, out of Swaziland."

MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN
"We then continued on to this house next to Amsterdam, where the senior officers made an attempt to - well they started to debrief him and made attempts to recruit him."

MR VISSER: Did you take part in the interrogation or not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I didn't.

MR VISSER: Alright.  So was he willing to be recruited?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when there was an attempt to interrogate him or recruit him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not.  No, Sir, not in any form.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Right.  Did you the at some point leave Amsterdam and go to a farm in the Elandskop area in the district of Pietermaritzburg?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 10 you say after you arrived on the farm, at some point Col Botha left for Durban.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: And he was not present during the remainder of the event?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What happened on the farm?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: On the farm Cols Taylor and Vorster continued in length to try and recruit Mr Cele to come over.

MR VISSER: Were you present at that time from time to time?