Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: He wasn't a leader he was just an ordinary citizen and he was a follower.  He wasn't a leader.  As I said Vezi was the leader, the induna or headman was Fanana Nzimande.

MR DE KLERK: Approximately how late were you attacked on that specific day the 23rd of June 1991?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think he - did you say how late or how long?

MR DE KLERK: At what time were you attacked when the whistles were blown, how late was it then?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would say it was about three o'clock, between three and four, or half-past three.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that after this attack all the men stayed together there where you were called together by the whistles until the evening?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.  We waited until it was dark so that we could enter.

MR DE KLERK: So if I understand you correctly your retaliation or revenge attack was a few hours after you and your group was attacked?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he attacked?  He told us, as far as I understand him to say, he heard a whistle blowing so he went and gathered with the others.  He had made no mention at all of an attack on him.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Gumbi will you please just explain to the Commission how the attack took place on your group, were you personally involved in that attack, who was involved?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I took part in the attack.  I was one of the attackers as I am here before the Commission.  Maybe I don't understand the question.  As I am here I was one of the attackers.

MR DE KLERK: No that - at three o'clock the IFP were attacked, your group were attacked is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Were you personally involved in that or how did you know about that attack?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can I interpose Mr de Klerk.  When you were getting attacked by the ANC members in your area where were you at that time when you were being attacked by the ANC members?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would say our home is at the border and I was at home.  There are homesteads above and the other ones are the other side downwards and I was just at home.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you there when the attack took place or were you injured or someone had seen you been injured?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I wasn't injured.  I heard gunshots and I started running and I was blowing a whistle calling other people and I wasn't injured.  When they came to attack they entered one part of the area where they injured a person. They were coming as people who were surrounding the place at the same time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr de Klerk.

MR DE KLERK: Do you know of anybody from the IFP that was injured on that specific day?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: There is one person who got injured.

MR DE KLERK: Did anybody die?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: No, one person got injured, nobody died on that particular day.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK

MR RATHMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The person who was injured when you were attacked, do you know the name of that person?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I do.

MR RATHMAN: Who?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It was Bekani Mkhunu.

MR RATHMAN: Now you blew the whistle at about three o'clock and you waited until it was dark before you started your attack, during that period did you make any attempt to contact your leaders to find out what your instructions should be?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We couldn't contact our leaders because it was us we were fighting the war and the leaders were not involved.

MR RATHMAN: Did you not think that perhaps it would be wise to try and contact your leaders before doing anything?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We didn't have time to think about that because we were so demoralised and that didn't come to our mind and so many things have been destroyed we didn't have time to sit down and try to contact people at their homes, different homes to help us because we knew that our leaders were not going to allow us to attack.  Maybe they were going to try and cool us down so we tried to use their very same method to fight back.

MR RATHMAN: Now this attack took place at Ncobeni is that right, which borders Magoda?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Did you attack any houses in Magoda at all?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Please repeat the question.

MR RATHMAN: Did you attack any houses in Magoda?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I know the place as Towlendeni, that is the place that we attacked.  We stretched to Ndaleni and Nthlahla.

MR RATHMAN: How did you travel on that night, did you go on foot or by vehicle?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We were on foot, we were getting to the houses through the passages until, we went through until Towlendeni.

MR RATHMAN: Did you not use any vehicles at all?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We didn't use cars if I have to say the truth.

MR RATHMAN: Approximately how far was it from Ncobeni to the place where the people were killed, or the places where people were killed?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I will say it's approximately three kilometres but I am not sure.

MR RATHMAN: Did you say the name of the man who suggested you get revenge was Umbanthlwa, is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: And he is now dead?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes he passed away.  We heard he died some few months ago.

MR RATHMAN: A few months ago or some years ago?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Months.

MR RATHMAN: Do you know Ndaleni well, Ndaleni and Magoda?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I know Magoda very well.  I know Ndaleni but not that much, but I know the place.  It's a place which is about 30 minutes from Ncobeni on foot.

MR RATHMAN: And do you know many of the people at Ndaleni?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't know many people, I just know a few people there.

MR RATHMAN: I see in your application you say that you didn't know the names of the people, the victims of the attack, is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: The people whom we attacked were not known to me.  However, when we were in court I discovered there was Tembi Mcqunu who was one of the persons I knew.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you also know Judith Dlamini?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes.

MR RATHMAN: ... to me that you knew these people and where they lived.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Which people?  There were different instances.  One incident took place at Ntowelendeni and the other one at Nhlahla, I want to know specifically which people you are referring to, whether you are referring to Madoda people?

MR RATHMAN: The first attack, I think, the first people you attacked you said were at the Dlamini home.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes.  Yes I knew them very well.  We used to play soccer nearby, near their place, and they also knew me.

MR RATHMAN: And you attacked that home?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: And you went on to the home of a Mr Mtolo, is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: An IFP member?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Did he then give you directions as to which places you should go to?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As I explained he is the person who directed us that there were people at the Ncbongwa house.

MR RATHMAN: This Mtolo man what was his other name?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Sadam Mtolo.

MR RATHMAN: Is he still alive?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I think so, but I am not sure because I met him long ago.

MR RATHMAN: Why did you go to his house?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: You mean his house?

MR RATHMAN: Yes.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I went there as a person whom I knew and we knew that he was inside that house and he was one of our members.

MR RATHMAN: Was he a senior member in the IFP?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: He was just an ordinary member, he didn't occupy any position.

MR RATHMAN: Did he accompany you at all?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: He didn't.

MR RATHMAN: How far from his house was Zwandile Mbongwe's house?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It's near.  I would say it is approximately a kilometre but it's just near.  I can't give an exact explanation.  They were neighbours.

MR RATHMAN: Did you go on foot from Mtolo's to Zwandile Mbongwe's place?