Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: You must be carrying your age very well, I thought you were 18 actually.  Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Myburgh, when you had a discussion with Mr Oelofse, you said that you and he were alone.

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: We stood to one side.

MR MALAN: You stood to one side, the discussion was between the two of you and you were confronting him because they left you in prison, all the leaders had run away?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you asked why they were being so "slapgat"?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And he said that his men were working to try and release you.

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Is that all that the discussion was about?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: He expanded by telling me about the plan that they had to get us out of there.

MR MALAN: Out of prison?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You didn't discuss any specific prison matters as I deduce?  Just about matters of those who were there?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: What we discussed was only regarding us in the Diepkloof cell, and those were well known political prisoners of the AWB.

MR MALAN: The question that I want to ask is that it was asked of you by Adv Van der Walt, whether he said anything about the applicants at all and you answered I asked him why they were being so "slapgat", why they had left us alone and he said that they were busy working at it and that he has an ear to prove it.
	Did he mention any of the applicants' names?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: He mentioned Kloppers' name.

MR MALAN: Why didn't you tell us that immediately?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: I didn't think it was relevant.

MR MALAN: What did he say about Kloppers?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: He just said Kloppers and them had worked, my people had worked.

MR MALAN: Was Kloppers the only one who had reported to him?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: I don't know.  I don't know how their rank structure worked.

MR MALAN: When you reacted to Mr Dreyer you also said that he had ears or an ear to prove it, you see you are not keeping to the same words and this is very strange to me because we must make findings on the credibility, what is the truth?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: He said ear.

MR MALAN: Not ears?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Not ears, so that was an error on your part?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Myburgh, from when do you know the applicant?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: In 1996, for two months I was with them in the Leeukop prison.

ADV BOSMAN: And did they approach you to testify, how did it happen that you testified here today?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: Initially I did not want to appear before the Commission at all regarding any case.  There was a lot of arguments surrounding my co-accused in my case, because I did not want to testify and because I didn't want to apply for amnesty.
	I told these people that if they wanted to apply for amnesty, they would have to do that themselves, but I did not want to.  And since then I have undertaken reasonably intensive Bible study and from a biblical view point, it has been clearly tasked to me that the leaders who are in charge today of the right-wingers, are traitors and that they are not there to carry the interest of our volk and as a result of that, I see it as my duty to expose the betrayal and the cowardice involved in that.
	A week before their first appearance, I called their legal counsel and said that I would be prepared to testify on their behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Just one question leading from Adv Bosman.  Currently you are detained in C-Max?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you are not in contact with any of the applicants?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: And not when you contacted me either, you did not have any contact with them then?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: No, no contact with any prisoner or anyone else other than my family.

MS VAN DER WALT: From when have you been in C-Max?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: Since November last year.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR MALAN: Just a follow up question please.  When did Oelofse visit you when he told you about the ear?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: That was in 1995.

MR MALAN: Then you didn't know about Kloppers yet?

ABRAHAM LIEBRECHT MYBURGH: No, I had heard about Kloppers who was in prison, through my work at the office, but at that stage I hadn't even met him yet.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Myburgh, you can stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the case for my two applicants, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: I call ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you do that, Mr Prinsloo, before we adjourned for lunch, we had finalised the issue of that statement and that you were satisfied that it did not have to be
handed in?

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I call Abraham Mothuphi.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: (sworn states)

MR BRINK: Mr Mothuphi, on the night of the 12th of December 1993, were you a passenger in a Toyota Cressida motor car, travelling on the Krugersdorp/Ventersdorp road approaching Radora crossing?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: Do you remember how many people were in that motor car?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: Tell us.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: We were seven sir.

MR BRINK: Sorry, which is the English interpretation.  Sorry, would you mind repeating the answer.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: We were seven in the car sir.

MR BRINK: Seven, all right.  And who was driving it?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Simon Nkompone.

MR BRINK: Were you going home?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: We were from home, going to work.

MR BRINK: Oh, I see.  Were there children in the car?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: Now, as you approached the Radora crossing, would you tell the Committee what you saw?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Whilst we were driving on that road, on the road we stopped next to the road, we were helping ourselves.  Whilst we were busy helping ourselves, we saw a car approaching from the front to us and he parked next to us.
	From there we went back to the car.  When we met that car, it slowed down.  We proceeded.  When we were just about to meet the car, they flicked their lights, then we proceeded again and then they followed us.
	In front ...

MR BRINK: Let me just try and cut it a bit short.  Was your vehicle stopped, was the vehicle in which you were travelling stopped by anyone, by a road block?  I think it is common cause.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct, it was stopped by a road block.

MR BRINK: Yes, right.  And when your car was stopped at this road block, did you see any other motor car in that vicinity?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: When we were stopped, we saw a Honda Ballade car.

MR BRINK: Was that Honda Ballade car stationary at the scene of the road block?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, it was next to the road block.

MR BRINK: Did you see any people, apart from men in uniform, sitting on a wall or standing next to a little wall?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: We found three men who were standing next to the car.

MR BRINK: Men in uniform or civilians?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Those who were sitting down, were not wearing a uniform.

MR BRINK: Were they black people?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, they were black people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I am going to suggest that you ask him to tell us what happened, so that he does that on his own initiative and also to enable him to be consistent with himself.

MR BRINK: The reason I was leading him on these preliminary points, is to try and save time Mr Chairman.  I will get to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that.