Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-16

MR VISSER: Including defeating the ends of justice in so far as you did not report what you had done to anyone, is that correct?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to put to this witness?

MR RORICH: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gabriel?

MS GABRIEL: Mr Wasserman, Mr Taylor's evidence.  When Mr Taylor submitted his first written submission, did you discuss it with him?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MS GABRIEL: So at the time that you submitted your first written submission on the very same day, you had not discussed these matters?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MS GABRIEL: Why then were you applying for amnesty for the death of Mr Ninela?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that.

MS GABRIEL: Why then were you applying for amnesty for the death of Mr Ninela?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Well, I applied for amnesty, it's in my original application, for the murder of Mr Ninela.

MS GABRIEL: Just give me a second please.  Let me refer you to page 35 of bundle 1,
"The elimination of Blessing Ninela.  The nature and particulars of this incident are not immediately recalled to mind.  I will do the necessary research etc. in an attempt to provide a full and detailed statement which will be provided at a later stage."
So at that point you knew that you had eliminated Mr Ninela and that was the basis on which you sought amnesty?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: That was it and then I was going to do the research.

MS GABRIEL: yes, now what was the research that led you to make the statements that you have in bundle 2 and that appears from pages 2 and 3 in bundle 2?  What is this research that you did?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I consulted with Major du Preez.

MS GABRIEL: Did you consult with Taylor?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: He was deceased.

MS GABRIEL: So you had never spoken to Taylor about this incident?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Yes, I had spoken to Mr Taylor about this incident.

MS GABRIEL: When was this?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I cannot recall the exact time.

MS GABRIEL: You see the problem I have with your evidence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's just be fair, you want to know whether he had consulted with Taylor, are you talking about this particular incident, or general discussions with Taylor?

MS GABRIEL: This particular incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Alright.  Did you discuss this particular incident with Taylor?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Yes, I did, Mr Chairman

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us about it, we want to when it was, isn't it?

MS GABRIEL: Yes.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I cannot recall exactly when.   It was  shortly before making - maybe after the date of this, it was a long time ago, a lot of water has gone under the bridge, I can't recall exactly when it was.

MS GABRIEL: Shortly after making what exactly, Mr Wasserman?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Shortly after making my initial statement, my initial application.

MS GABRIEL: And at that point you discussed it with him?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Correct.

MS GABRIEL: And at that point did you point out to him that you disagreed with what was written in his initial application?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Yes, I did.

MS GABRIEL: The problem I have with your evidence is really this,  you are basically telling us that what Taylor as your superior, said in his amnesty application, is incorrect except for the specific instruction that  you were told to eliminate Ninela.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Most of what Col Taylor has said in his amnesty application ...(intervention)

MS GABRIEL: All of it, all of it.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Not all of it.

MS GABRIEL: Except for the instruction that you had to eliminate Taylor, pardon me, Ninela.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: That is so in that application.

MS GABRIEL: I want to suggest to you, Mr Wasserman, that that's very convenient for your purposes, given that Taylor is dead.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Why would that be so?

MS GABRIEL: Well, we have no way then of determining whether the instruction really came from Taylor.  If everything as you say is incorrect, how are we to know that the actual instruction came from Taylor?  Why is it that on that point when he was incorrect about so much else, he would be correct on that specific point?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the evidence I've given you is the truth of how this episode did come to pass.  Col Taylor was ill, he had severe brain cancer at the time of this.  His memory and his day to day affairs were very intermittent and I feel he's actually just made a mistake in this case.

MS GABRIEL: Subsequent to making your first amnesty application, the only other research that you did in support of your second written submission, your amplified application, was really to talk to du Preez, then?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Correct.

MS GABRIEL: And you didn't think it was necessary to investigate this matter any further?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MS GABRIEL: Why not?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: What I recalled, I had committed to paper.

MS GABRIEL: Well may I suggest to you that at that point you didn't need to because Taylor was dead and that was your loophole, all you have to say really is that Taylor gave you the instruction.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I have no comment on that.

MS GABRIEL: You have no comment?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I don't know how to answer it.

MS GABRIEL: So on your version and the basis of your amnesty application is really, you got this instruction, you don't know, there may have been other facets to the killing of Mr Ninela, but it doesn't really concern you?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I got the instruction, that's my evidence Mr Chairman.

MS GABRIEL: And it didn't occur to you in support of your amnesty application to research this matter any further?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MS GABRIEL: It didn't occur to you at the time of your instruction, at a time at which he was handed over to you with a supposed limpet mine found in his possession, to question the instruction?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: There was no reason to question the instruction.

MS GABRIEL: Du Preez mentioned in his evidence earlier on that one of the reasons for killing Ninela was to serve as a deterrent.  Do you hold the same view?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that must be Mr du Preez's opinion, I didn't, I have not come to that conclusion.

MS GABRIEL: So you were just merely carrying out your instruction to execute?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: Correct.

MS GABRIEL: And it was Du Preez's evidence that it was his decision to blow up Mr Ninela's face and hands?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, I'm not an explosives expert.

MS GABRIEL: Did you question that?  Did you question that decision?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.  I concurred with the decision.

MS GABRIEL: Why?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: It made sense for the body to be incognito, or anonymous.

MS GABRIEL: But why?  But why?  Why did the body have to be obliterated so that nobody could recognise it?  All you were told was to execute?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: In my mind, in my conclusion, we could have got away with the fact that Ninela had left the country to join the forces in exile.

MS GABRIEL: Now why would you want that, why would you want that particular idea to emerge?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: That was in my own mind.

MS GABRIEL: Oh, so this wasn't a belief that was shared?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I had it in my mind that ...(intervention)

MS GABRIEL: Why did you form that belief?  You knew nothing about this man.

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I had been informed, he had performed an explosion in Durban,...(intervention)

MS GABRIEL: And so then you hit upon this idea?

LAWRENCE G WASSERMAN: I had been informed that he might continue to do such, I concurred that he might continue to do such, as Mr Taylor had informed me and therefore I carried out the instructions.