Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-11

GEORGE BIZOS: We also know that according to the accepted ballistics evidence there were bullets that struck the parapet, shot from the position that the crowd was in?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, there were gunshots which hit Shell House from the crowd.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the time when this shooting was taking place, what was happening around you, for instance how far would you have been away from the ten shots that struck the underside of the parapet?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It's in my immediate vicinity.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you have any expectation that Mr Khumalo would fire the AK47 into the parapet?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether the AK47 has any propensity, whether to go down or to lift when you shoot?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: If the weapon is not well controlled it normally lifts up when you shoot it and don't control it very well.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(inaudible)

GARY JOHN KRUSER: If it's not properly controlled it tends to lift up when you shoot it.

GEORGE BIZOS: And where you were, was there any dust in the air?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There was dust, I don't recall specifically, there was just chaos in my mind.  I don't recall all the details which had happened.  The only thing that's very pertinent in my mind was the shot that hit the window.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the time that you issued the order to repel, I'm sorry, can I cancel that question.  You ordered Mr Rama to fire two warning shots.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I gave the order for warning shots to be fired, I never gave them ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: What weapon did Mr Ramie have?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: He had a 9mm pistol.

GEORGE BIZOS: There is evidence that two of the shots on the underside of the parapet were from a pistol.  Have you know any idea as to how those marks may have been made?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The only conclusion I can reach is that it's from Mr Rama's firearm, the warning shots he fired.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the time that you ordered the people, the armed people around you to repel, why did you do it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It was a matter of seconds, I had to make a decision in a matter of seconds.  What was very clear to me that, if they overran that line of defence ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: If they what?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: If they overran that line of defence much greater life would have been lost, not only on the side of the marchers but also on the side of the ANC guards and personnel and maybe even the leaders in the office, and I decided, based on that, that the best thing to do was to repel the marchers at the start of the attack and not letting them proceed to a position where they could harm much more people.

GEORGE BIZOS: What were they doing when you gave the order, repel?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were surging forward, running forward and chanting and at the same time lots of gunfire was emanating from the crowd.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any information at the time as to whether or not any attempt was being contemplated against the then President of the ANC, Mr Mandela?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There was information with our department that, firstly there was an attempt to assassinate him when he was supposed to go to Ulundi which our department motivated very heavily against him not going.  And it was also reported that this march might be used to fulfil that, although he was not present in the building on that day.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Mandela go to Ulundi?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: He did not go.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Ulundi and any other area considered a no-go area for the ANC?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There were many areas in the Natal region that was very difficult to go in as ANC members.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know what the people on the parapet did, the ANC people?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were deployed there, and maybe I should first explain, for the purpose of observation, number 1 and second for the purpose of what we call secondary shooting in the case of an attack to divert the attention of the attackers and also to make the decision to shoot if they thought there was attack where people with firearms were shooting at guards of Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you explain what you mean by "they were there for secondary fire"?  Firstly can you tell the Committee please, on what portion of the parapet were they posted?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were posted - I posted the late Chrisly Shaba as the Commander of the parapet and he had people in all four corners for observation point.  I'm sure when the attack took place most of them or all of them moved to the north-western corner at the time of the attack.  I assume most of them or all of them moved to that corner.

GEORGE BIZOS: North-western corner, would that be De Villiers and King George?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Kruser, when you say you assume that most of them moved on the north-western corner, is this the information that you are simply assuming or you were able to establish this as a matter of fact after the shooting?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I haven't managed to establish whether they all moved or most of them moved.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you give an order to stop the fire?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you gave the order, can you say whether it was responded to immediately or whether it took a second or more?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My own observation was, I think people ceased to fire almost immediately after that call, but with the noise and the chaos it's very likely that some people could have shot longer than after the order to cease fire.

CHAIRPERSON: When you gave the order to stop firing, did you make sure that all those whom you wanted to order could hear your order?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, I shouted as loud as I could and I put my hand in the air, I shouted "cease fire".

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see what the result of this firing was?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I saw many people lying in the street either injured or dead.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know how many may have been injured or killed as a result of your, of the group that you ordered to shoot were injured, or whether and/or how many or who were injured from the people shooting from the parapet?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What I know is that 8 people died outside Shell House.  How many were injured, I don't have the totals.  I'm also told that, I mean, I looked at, the medical evidence that one person was stabbed, one person was shot with a Makarov probably in his side, one person was probably from the front with an AK, the rest of the people were shot with shotguns if I remember correctly in the back, they were shot with shotguns, pellets of shotguns in their backs.  That's I think more or less how I recollect it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did any of the people that you were in charge of have a Makarov?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Not to my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: What you mean by that is, you didn't hand out a Makarov to anybody when you handed out the firearms?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No, we did not have any Makarovs in our arsenal.

MR LAX: Did any of your members have a Makarov as their personal weapon maybe?  Did you make any enquiries about that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There are quite a few people who owned personal Makarovs licensed in their personal name.

MR LAX: Who were on duty on that day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Possibly who were on duty on that day, I don't recall everyone.

MR LAX: Have you made any efforts to establish who they were or what - I mean subsequently become aware, you become aware of the ballistics evidence?  How have you followed that up?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: During the time of the inquest and prior to that when we had meetings with that department we did try to enquire if there was anyone who was at the corner with a Makarov.  We could not establish anyone who was at the corner with a Makarov.