Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would like to start the proceedings.  For the record today is Thursday the 18th November 1999.  It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the Durban Christian Centre.  The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record.  The first matter that we will be hearing this morning is the amnesty application of Mr M M Jili, amnesty reference number AM7643/97.  For the record I'm going to ask the parties legal representatives to go on record.  Ms Loonat, I think you're for the applicant.

MS LOONAT: Good morning Mr Chairperson, learned Members of the Committee.  I am Mrs Zerina Loonat and I'm representing the applicant, Mr Jili, this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Loonat.  And then for the next-of-kin, Ms Reddy?

MS REDDY: Chairperson, I'm actually representing the victims in this family namely the Ferrero family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's Ms Reddy is it?  And the leader of evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson I'm Zuko Mapoma, I'm the leader of evidence.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Ms Loonat, do you want your client to take the oath?

MS LOONAT: Yes please.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: (sworn states)

MS LOONAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Jili, please tell the Members of the Committee how old you are?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I am 25 years old and I'm about to turn 26.

MS LOONAT: Where do you live?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I was born in KwaMashu and now I'm residing in Richmond.

MS LOONAT: Which party are you a member of?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: ANC.

MS LOONAT: Are you a card carrying member and have you got proof of that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I am.

MS LOONAT: And do you have proof of this?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I do have that card but I don't have it in my possession right now but it is at home.

MS LOONAT: At the time when you entered politics who was your leader?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Siphiso Kabindo was our leader.

MS LOONAT: In what respect was he your leader, did he give you instructions or how was he your leader?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He was a leader in the area and we used to go and join to him as ANC members, he's the one who was giving us cards or was issuing the membership cards.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you join the ANC?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: In 1991.

MS LOONAT: Tell me, was there any kind of political turmoil in your area?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes there was as from 1992 and from 1993.

MS LOONAT: And what did you do about it?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: A certain organisation used to attack us, shoot at us and sometimes take our cattle.

MS LOONAT: What is the name of your organisation, do you know?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It is the people from Apateni not the organisation, from a Apateni and their leader was Mbashlazi.

MS LOONAT: What party did they belonged to, do you know?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: IFP members.

MS LOONAT: How often did they attack your area?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It will be three times a week.

MS LOONAT: As from when would you say, as from 1992 onwards?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It's from 1992 onwards.

MS LOONAT: What did you do about these attacks?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: We ...(inaudible)

MS LOONAT: I didn't hear the translation.

INTERPRETER: That's because I didn't because I was disturbed.

MS LOONAT: Sorry about that.  I'll put the question again.
	Mr Jili, what did you do about these persistent attacks on your area?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: After they had come and attacked us sometimes we would run away and go and hide in the bushes and then later we decided that we needed to arm ourselves so that we don't have to run away from our homes.

MS LOONAT: You say we decided to arm ourselves, please explain that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I will put it this way, there was a commander.  His name is Kotele Sibonele.  He was the one who usually gave us instructions that we were supposed to go and combat them, to go in the area where we will block them from coming into our community and attack them as they were coming to attack us.

MS LOONAT: How many of you were there when you retaliated?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Sometimes we will be thirty, sometimes thirty five and sometimes less than that, sometimes twenty nine, depending on what time the attack was launched because sometimes we will wait for people to come from work to join us.

MS LOONAT: Mr Jili, when you were given instructions to fight back, what exactly was your instructions, did you have firearms, what did you actually do?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Some had firearms and some didn't have.

MS LOONAT: And do you own your own firearm?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: At that time I didn't have.

MS LOONAT: Where did you get the firearms from?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: When we launched attacks we usually armed ourselves with spears and sticks but Mtuduzi used to give me his firearm.

MS LOONAT: Who is Mtuduzi?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mtuduzi Jama.

MS LOONAT: Who was he, was he a friend, a leader?  Who was he?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He was also a member of the ANC and he was one of us.

MS LOONAT: You mean one of us carrying on our fighting on a regular basis, is that what you mean?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes one of us who were also counter-attacking our enemies.

MS LOONAT: Do you have any training in the use of firearms?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No.

MS LOONAT: Tell me, were these firearms supplied to you by Mr Sibonele, Kotene Sibonele, or by Mr Mtuduzi Jama?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mtuduzi used to lend me his firearm.

MS LOONAT: Where is Mr Sibonele at the moment, your commander?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He is now late, he passed away in 1994.

MS LOONAT: On the 27th April 1993 you and some of your co-perpetrators entered the home of Mr Ferrero, the farm house of Mr Ferrero, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes that is correct.

MS LOONAT: Please tell us what led up to your going to that farm house on that day, why did you go and who arranged the whole thing?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Bongani Zuma was the one who organised this whole thing.

MS LOONAT: What did he organise?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He organised that since the people from Apateni who were attacking usually go past that farm and pick up weapons there and come and attack us, therefore we were supposed to go there in that farm and pick up those firearms.

MS LOONAT: Are you saying that the victim was supplying firearms to the IFP members, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MS LOONAT: Did you have any proof of that besides Bongani Zama telling you that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: When I was told that the weapons and the firearms were taken from that farm five of us or five guys who belonged to our community went to that farm to check if this was true and they discovered that there were weapons but then those weapons were not as many and then we believed that they were probably many other weapons in that farm because the attackers usually passed that farm when they turned to attack us.

MS LOONAT: What time of the day or night was it that you entered the farm?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It was in the morning at about 10 o'clock.

MS LOONAT: What did you do then?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: From where we camped some of us went back to our homes to go and rest because we were not asleep part of the night and ...(intervention)

MS LOONAT: Sorry Mr Jili.  Sorry, one moment.  The question I'm asking you is when you entered the farm what happened, not when you left the farm.  When you entered the farm with your five colleagues what transpired that morning.