Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR KUNY: You see Mr Morgan, my client Ms Falati in fact says that you are not telling the Commission all you know about the goings on at Mrs Mandela's household, that in fact you know more about  it.

MR MORGAN: I have said everything.  I have said everything that I know.

MR KUNY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SOLLER: Mr Commissioner, Peter Soller on behalf of Mr Dsakhele Mbatha.  Mr Morgan in the time you worked for Mrs Mandela, did you only drive a kombi?

MR MORGAN: No, I used to drive a bus as well.

MR SOLLER: Is it correct that you ever drove a BMW?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

MR SOLLER: Now, do you know Mr Mbatha?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't know him.

MR SOLLER: Do you know Mr Dlamini?

MR MORGAN: I don't know those, what are their names?

MR SOLLER: Dsakhele Mbatha and Mr Dlamini?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't know them.

MR SOLLER: Do you know anything about the death of Dr Asvat Mr Morgan?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't know anything.

MR SOLLER: Did you ever drive a white 5-series BMW?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

MR SOLLER: For what purpose did you use that vehicle?

MR MORGAN: Each time they sent me, I would take any car and drive with it.

MR SOLLER: When did you hear about Dr Asvat's death?

MR MORGAN: I heard a few days after the incident, I don't remember as to how many days after his death.

MR SOLLER: Did you ever find out who was convicted for that?

MR MORGAN: They had said it is Tulani.

MR SOLLER: Tulani who?

MR MORGAN: Tulani Dlamini.

MR SOLLER: And did you find out details of that death or do you still not know them today?

MR MORGAN: I don't know any details pertaining to his death.

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chairperson, David Unterhalter for the Chili family together with Peter Jordi.
 Mr Morgan, I wanted to ask you one or two questions concerning Maxwell Madondo.  You said that you took Mrs Mandela to see the body, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Was Maxwell Madondo a member of the football club?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could you tell us whether there was a plan for Maxwell Madondo to go and kill Sibusiso Chili and Leratodi Ikaneng, did you hear about such a plan?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't know anything.

MR UNTERHALTER: You didn't hear of any talk amongst members of the club to do such a thing?

MR MORGAN: No.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know why Mrs Mandela wanted to go and see the body of Maxwell Madondo?

MR MORGAN: I don't know.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know how Mrs Mandela came to hear of the death of Mr Madondo?

MR MORGAN: I wouldn't know.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did Mrs Mandela say anything to you in the motor car as you went to look at the body?

MR MORGAN: No.

MR UNTERHALTER: And after she had seen the body, did she say anything to you?

MR MORGAN: She said let's go.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did she say anything about the Chili family to you?

MR MORGAN: No.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, I just want to say it is not Chile, it is Chili, just in case we are thinking of something hot.

MR MPOFO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am Adv Mpofo, I am representing myself.  I am representing myself - at the risk of using up my five minutes, I will start by asking my questions and then explain the role that I will play in the proceedings.  Thank you.
 Mr Morgan, just a few questions please.  You were arrested about a month or two after the events which you have described, at about February 1989, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

MR MPOFO: And you were kept at the Diepkloof prison with the others, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MPOFO: Now, at the time of your arrest or at least subsequent thereto, you were represented by a firm of Attorneys of which I was a member, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MPOFO: I visited you in the prison, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MPOFO: Before such visits that took place at the prison, did you know who I was?

MR MORGAN: No, I did not know who you were.

MR MPOFO: Did you see me anywhere before?

MR MORGAN: No.  I saw you the day when I was coming to you to fetch the car.

MR MPOFO: I can't recall that, but that must be subsequent.  The point I am making is that before you were arrested, did you ever meet me before?

MR MORGAN: Yes.  I saw you at Mrs Mandela's house.

MR MPOFO: Is that before or after your arrest Mr Morgan?  If I put to you it was after the arrest, is it possible that it was after your arrest?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

MR MPOFO: While you were in detention you were visited by myself and Ms Satwell from the firm of Attorneys and members of your family, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MPOFO: And Mrs Mandela herself never visited you while you were in jail, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: She used to visit Richards and not me, not me.

MR MPOFO: I have used only three minutes, I hope I have earned my two minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you were going to explain.

MR MPOFO: Yes, Chairperson, the real purpose of my representation is that the TRC structures kindly informed me although I was already aware, that some of the people who are going to testify here have made certain allegations concerning myself.  Some of the allegations I am not really concerned with, except for one and that one really revolves around a suggestion of unprofessional conduct in the sense that one of the persons suggested that I - I think the word used was concocted, an alibi.
 Most of this is contained in the book by Katiza Cebekhulu which I will attempt to show in due course should really be entitled a journey of lies, because that is what it contains.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms (indistinct)?
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<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Morgan, I've just got three questions for you.  The first one is that you said in your evidence that on the fourth day you saw Stompie Sepei in the backroom of Mrs Mandela's house, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.
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<UNKNOWN>: Was Stompie Sepei dead or alive at that stage Mr Morgan?

MR MORGAN: I do not know whether he was dead or not.
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<UNKNOWN>: The second question Mr Morgan, you said yesterday that you heard personally, you heard Dr Asvat telling Mrs Mandela that Stompie Sepei needed to be taken to the hospital, personally, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes.
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<UNKNOWN>: You made a statement to the TRC Commission on the 4th of November 1997, to a Liela Groenewald, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Please repeat your question?
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<UNKNOWN>: On the 4th of November 1997 you made a statement to Liela Groenewald at the TRC commission offices, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.
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<UNKNOWN>: In your statement you said that the following day you heard from slash that Asvat had been there.  You said that Dr Asvat had wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital.  Could you please clarify whether you heard Dr Asvat telling him personally, on which day did you hear Dr Asvat telling him personally and on which day did you hear from Slash that Dr Asvat had been there?

MR MORGAN: For starters, Dr Asvat was not talking to me, he was talking to Winnie.  Secondly Slash told me the following day when I was asking him repeating the same news that Asvat said this boy should be taken to hospital.
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<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Morgan.  Mr Morgan you also in the Sunday Times in an exclusive interview said that you had to lie to save Mrs Mandela, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: That is correct.
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<UNKNOWN>: Why did you have to lie to save Mrs Mandela, Mr Morgan?

MR MORGAN: I did not want my employer to be arrested.
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<UNKNOWN>: Are you telling the truth now Mr Morgan?

MR MORGAN: Yes, I am telling the truth.
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<UNKNOWN>: And why are you doing so Mr Morgan?

MR MORGAN: Because this is the house of truth.
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<UNKNOWN>: I have no more questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yasmin?