Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did hear those allegations.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What do you say to that?

UNKNOWN: Those allegations are not true.

MR NOMPOZOLO: After he was detained did you ever have contact with him?

UNKNOWN: I gave him clothes to change that's when I saw him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where you his investigating officer?

UNKNOWN: No, I was never his investigating officer.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  There's just one point I left out Mr Chairman.  He indicated to the Commission that you were given instructions by the then Captain Mfundisi to take him to the police station and to make him talk.

UNKNOWN: No, he's making a mistake.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Mr Mtatha, in your last answer you said that he was making a mistake.  He made a mistake in that you were instructed by Captain Mfundisi but he was assaulted by Mr Nonhonho?

UNKNOWN: He's making a mistake by saying that I was given instructions by Captain Mfundisi to torture him so that he can talk because Captain Mfundisi on that day couldn't give us instructions because there was a Senior, Lieutenant Mfunani.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Nompozolo do you want to consult with your client?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Just switch of the mike whilst you are consulting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The witness wants to rephrase his answer.

BONGANI FINCA: Go ahead Mr Mtatha.

UNKNOWN: I never got such instructions.  The instruction I got was to escourt a car to the police station not to torture him so that he can give us some information.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you, are there questions?  Reverend Xundu?

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairperson when a person had been arrested the police would say that we would make you talk, didn't you hear the use of such terminology in connection with people who were arrested?

UNKNOWN: I did hear that.

REV XUNDU: What did that mean?

UNKNOWN: Sometime a person would be asked questions concerning a charge laid against him or ...

REV XUNDU: You said sometimes, what would happen at other times?

UNKNOWN: Or he would be instructed to write down what he was saying.

REV XUNDU: He would not be tortured?

UNKNOWN: He would not be assaulted he would just be told and given tea and be told to write down because we wanted the truth from him

REV XUNDU: Secondly, you said you were present in the raid on the house, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

REV XUNDU: You were armed?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was.

REV XUNDU: Did you shoot?

UNKNOWN: No, I did not shoot Sir.

REV XUNDU: But your colleagues did?

UNKNOWN: I don't remember during that operation except for those who were inside the yard I think those were the ones who shot but of those that were with me nobody shot.

REV XUNDU: There was no order that you must shoot?

UNKNOWN: No, there was no order as Colonel who was superior in that operation there was no order saying that we must shoot.

REV XUNDU: So those that did use their weapons shot out of their own?

UNKNOWN: Yes, because they saw the situation fit.

REV XUNDU: They took the law into their own hands?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct Sir.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Tiny Maya?

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mtatha I have two questions for you.  First of all the copy of the occurrence book attached to your Affidavit, what is the purpose thereof is it because you know the person who wrote this occurrence or do you want to clarify to us who arrested this person?

UNKNOWN: I wanted to clarify who arrested him and who took him to prison.

MS MAYA: According to this extract it is said that Mr Bikitsha was arrested under the orders of Colonel Nonhonho, do you have any knowledge concerning that?

UNKNOWN: According to this Section, Section 26 when you read it is said that the person who has a right to arrest a person is a Colonel and his Superiors.  The sub-ordinates do not have a right to arrest a person.

MS MAYA: You gave us this statement saying that instructions were from Colonel Nonhonho, do you have any knowledge of that?  Let me leave that question and say that you heard Inspector Mfundisi saying that the person was responsible for the detainees was Colonel Nonhonho, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MS MAYA: In other words if a person arrested for interrogation Colonel Nonhonho would have a knowledge of that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MS MAYA: I may be wrong when I refer to the Affidavit of Colonel Nonhonho because he is not here, but I'm going to ask this question as you gave me the right to ask because of the extract. (Extract from Colonel Nonhonho's statement: Some weeks later whilst on leave I was informed that Zwelakhe, Mr Bikitsha had been arrested).  He said that he knew about that Mr Bikitsha had been arrested some weeks later but your extract said that Mr Bikitsha was arrested under Section 26 under instructions from Colonel Nonhonho, can you please explain this to us?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He wants to consult with Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

MS MAYA: Mr Nompozolo if you don't mind I would like to withdraw the question thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Unless you insist on answering the question because the statement being referred to is the statement of Colonel Nonhonho he's the one who made the statement but what we want to know from Mr Mtatha perhaps now, is he confirming that Mr Nonhonho was present and is he confirming that Mr Nonhonho did instruct the detention of ... and you must remember that he is under oath.

UNKNOWN: According to the OB extract Mr Chairperson I do confirm because it is written this way according to the OB extract.

BONGANI FINCA: The question asked was do you confirm that Mr Nonhonho gave you the instructions and did he give you these instructions while he was on holiday or was he present?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson according to the OB extract as this was written by one member of the Security Branch it is very difficult for me to know whether this member who signed this OB extract ... because we'd be given instructions and told to do a job at that particular time.

BONGANI FINCA: You saw the police who were in that operation, was Mr Nonhonho there?

UNKNOWN: Because I was busy on that day and I was shocked because there were bullets all over I'm not sure whether he was there or not.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Mtatha we thank you for now, as I've already said to Mr Mfundisi who testified before you we are going to give you notices with a view to an in-depth investigation on this matter.  We are not contemplating making a finding at this stage which would want to declare you a perpetrator we would want to hold a more in-depth hearing after we will have more time to go in-depth on this matter.  What you have said now remains on our records and we will be using that in a Section 29 hearing.  Thank you Mr Nompozolo for your assistance you may be excused.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Lastly we want to read Mr Nonhonho's statement for the record.  He's not here but his attorney Mr Clarke sent us his statement for the record so that when we look deeper into the matter we have his statement on record.  Mrs Crichton will read this statement for us.