Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Jabulani had already passed away at the time, I am the one who buried the shotguns.  I did not understand the question.

MR BERGER: I think you understood the absurdity of your previous answer, but let's proceed.  You buried a shogun in the veld on your way to Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The guns were not hidden at Boipatong but were hidden at Kwamadala hostel.

MR BERGER: When did you bury a shotgun?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger, he keeps talking about guns, not a gun, he's using the plural.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Lax.  All of this flows from a question: "Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?", and he said: "Yes".  Now he says Jabulani didn't bury the shotguns, the shotgun, "I did".
	Do I understand you correctly, Mr Buthelezi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I thought you were asking me if I did see Jabulani carrying a shotgun.

MR BERGER: I'll start again.  Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: At the trial, your counsel put on your behalf a fact that you had seen Jabulani burying a shotgun.  And when I say on your behalf, I mean on your, Sipho Buthelezi's behalf it was put, do you remember that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember that.

MR BERGER: And you say that is not true?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was a lie.

MR BERGER: Did you tell your counsel that, that you saw Jabulani burying a shotgun?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I told him so.  I told him so as I was trying to run away from the truth.

MR BERGER: How many shots did you fire in Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: About three times, I fired about three time.

MR BERGER: And you fired into houses?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I fired only once, directing to the houses.

MR BERGER: And the other two times?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I shot, directing my shots towards the SDUs and I shot for the second time in the air.  As the other people that were in my company were getting into the house I shot in the air.

MR BERGER: Why did you shoot into the air?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was too scared to kill a person.

MR BERGER: You wanted to kill people, didn't you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was the instruction that was coming from Mr Damarra.

MR BERGER: And you fired into the house because you wanted to kill whoever was in that house, you didn't care who was inside, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I shot at a certain window, the bullet penetrated the dining-room.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you didn't fire, you fired into the air because you were afraid of killing a human being?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Previously you had threatened to shoot at the people who wanted to throw a handgrenade at Stals Mazibuko.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I knew that they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't hit Mazibuko with a handgrenade.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did threaten to shoot them.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I tried to threaten them.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us earlier on that if you had been instructed to go to Sebokeng, you would have been the first one to go there.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you going to do there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was going to kill the people who were trying to kill me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Buthelezi, at page 188 of your further particulars you say the following:  Question 6:
"I had a shotgun and I fired shots in the direction of the houses and into the air."
Is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: At page 191, third last paragraph you say the following
"I fired three shots in the first street which we entered.  I fired in the direction of the houses and into the air."
Is that statement correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: So you fired at more than one house, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I shot at one house only.

MR BERGER: You know that with a shotgun that the pellets spray all over the show, it's not just one bullet that comes out of a shotgun, you know that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know.

MR BERGER: So when you fire in the direction of one person you can hit 10 people, you know that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know that.

MR BERGER: And you went spraying shotgun pellets in the first street in which you entered Boipatong, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the first street that you entered in Boipatong, was at the bottom, the southern side of Boipatong.  The first street was Moshweshwe Street, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Though I do not know the name of the street, but it was the street next to the school.

MR BERGER: Yes, that's Moshweshwe Street, right at the bottom of Boipatong.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And just at where you came in in that street, Moshweshwe Street, people were killed and in house 666 two people were killed.
DISTRESSED AUDIENCE MEMBER

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, may I be excused from the proceedings for a few minutes?  Thank you.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR BERGER: And the two people who were killed at 666, Mr Buthelezi, were Anna Sebolai and Percival Sebolai, and Percival Sebolai was shot in the face with a shotgun.  Is it correct, Mr Buthelezi, when you say that you didn't see who you were shooting at and you don't know if anyone was killed as a result of your shots?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am sure that I did not see the person that I hit as I was shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I am saying ...(indistinct) that as I was shooting, directing to the house on that particular street, I am not sure if I did hit someone or not.

MR BERGER: When you were shooting there were people around you with spears, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that you went into the house at 666, you and your co-attackers, you shot Percival Sebolai whilst your co-attackers stabbed Anna Sebolai in Moshweshwe Street, the very first street that you entered?  Isn't that what happened?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: Where was Jabulani and Doctor when you ...(intervention)

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: They disappeared, they just disappeared.

MR BERGER: So they were not with you in Moshweshwe Street when you fired into the houses, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they were not there with me.

MR BERGER: Did you move down to Slovo Park?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we took that direction.

MR BERGER: And did you fire shots in Slovo Park?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I did not shoot thereafter.

MR BERGER: Why not?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I do not have a specific reason why I did not shoot.

MR BERGER: According to you, you hadn't killed anyone up to that point.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Why did you stop your shooting spree when you got to Slovo Park?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It's something that just happened unplanned.

MR BERGER: Weren't you still chasing the SUDs?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: They had already run away, most of them.

MR BERGER: Hadn't they run into the houses in Slovo Park?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The others ran towards Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: Yes, and you followed them there.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we followed them.

MR BERGER: But you didn't shoot anymore, even though you could have?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did not use the chance to shoot them.

MR BERGER: You're not being completely honest with this Committee about your participation in the attack, are you, Mr Buthelezi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: You know because you saw the damage that a shotgun can cause, and you want to distance yourself from that horror, isn't that right?