Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

COL VENTER: Chair, I understand what is being said, butthey were not taken to Cradock, I simply had to go to Cradockand then I would have been taken to where they would have come. They were taken to the police station entirely outside of theirarea where they were they were involved.  It's an old police station,I can't remember where it was.

MR NYOKA: My instructions are that the three were notin hiding at that stage, why was it that they had to be arrestedat the PE airport and not taken from their homes?

COL VENTER: Chair I can't answer this question, I wassimply asked to make my people available at the airport.
They had the information that these persons would have been atthe airport.
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MR NYOKA: Mr Venter you said your task included tracinginsurgents, activists and instigators, and once arrested to handthem over to the local Special Branch, do you still stand by that?

COL VENTER: I remain with this statement because therewere persons of the Branch present with me.

MR NYOKA: Why is it that the three were not merely arrestedand handed over to the local security branch as they qualifiedunder the description of activists and instigators?  Why werethey to be taken to the ocean or beach?

COL VENTER: Chair if I think back to this today, it'sthat these people were taken away from the airport, then theywere handed over to the security branch members.  We did thisnext to the ocean and they then took them away.

MR NYOKA: You do know the Port Elizabeth Airport Hertzog,when you were there?

COL VENTER: I do know the Port Elizabeth airport, thatwas in fact the last time I had been to the airport.

MR NYOKA: It's not a big airport?

COL VENTER: No it is very small.

MR NYOKA: You said that you and some askaris went toPE Airport because you were unknown in the area it would thusbe able to operate easily, are you therefore to concede that oncethe three were within the airport premises in their motor vehicle,it would have been easy for the local security branch just toclose both the entrance and exits and arrest them inside theircar, they didn't have to come all the way from Vlakplaas to dothat?

COL VENTER: Chair, I think there's a misunderstanding. I was unknown in the area, as a person I was unknown in the
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area.  If I were to take these persons away from the airports,then they could not link this to known security police officersfrom Port Elizabeth.

MR NYOKA: You said you were accompanied by one Dion Nieuwoudt,where was he coming from?

COL VENTER: Dion Nieuwoudt was of the security branchat Port Elizabeth, also Sakkie van Zyl.

MR NYOKA: Why is it then that you and the askaris wereunknown had to be accompanied by people who were known from thatarea? It doesn't make sense to me.

COL VENTER: They took us to the airport, let me explainexactly how this worked.  We were sitting in a vehicle to theside, myself and van Zyl, the askaris on their own then approachedthe bakkie when it already had stopped, they then grabbed thesepersons, I was not physically with them, I was at a distance inthe presence of van Zyl and Nieuhoudt.

MR NYOKA: Is that the full name of this Dion Nieuhoudt,is it Dion Nieuhoudt?

COL VENTER: That's the only way in which I know him. I know him as Dion Nieuhoudt.

MR NYOKA: Is it the same person who was involved in theMotherwell trial?

COL VENTER: Correct Mr Chair.

MR NYOKA: That person is Gideon Nieuhoudt, not Dion Nieuhoudt. That's why I asked that question, I wanted to be sure.

COL VENTER: Mr Chair, no that's correct, I think youcall him Dion which is probably derived from Gideon.

MR NYOKA: Thank you very much.

MR NYOKA: Why did you have to go to the coast insteadof to a local police station to interrogate them?
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COL VENTER: Mr Chair, I've already said they gave meinstructions that we would find the askaris at the sea and thatthey would then remove them from there. It was a method whichwas used if they did not want to keep a person at a police station.

MR NYOKA: You said their heads were covered at nightand were not known, why did you have to cover their heads? Whydid you have to cover their heads, you were not known by them,what was the necessity for that?

COL VENTER: I think it was probably for the other membersof the security branch from Port Elizabeth who were with us. Because they definitely didn't know us.  When I met them nextto the ocean, they were wearing these hats, and when I left shortlythereafter, their heads were still covered.

MR NYOKA: When did you go to Cradock after the airportincident?

COL VENTER: About a day or two later. I can't exactlyremember.

MR NYOKA: Was it the intention of the group to interrogatethem outside the normal Cradock police station, if you know?

COL VENTER: I would imagine so that that was the intention.

MR NYOKA: Was the police commander, of the Cradock policestation aware that you were in an unused police station of Cradock?

COL VENTER: I don't know whether the station commanderof Cradock was aware of this.  I simply don't know.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not take them to the Cradock policestation and interrogate them there?

COL VENTER: Chair as I have already indicated, my taskwas to see to it that these people were brought to the ocean,
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from there they were taken to a police station close to Cradock.

MR NYOKA: Did you see anyone at any stage assaultingany of those three during the Cradock visit?

COL VENTER: Is that at the old police station?

MR NYOKA: Yes.

COL VENTER: During my visit there they were not assaultedin my presence.

MR NYOKA: Did you hear any shots been fired on any ofthem by any of the group of the police at that police station?

COL VENTER: No Chair.

MR NYOKA: You say that you were not involved in any interrogation,assaults, intimidation or any other action against the three orthe removal of their vehicle, not so?

COL VENTER: Correct Chair.

MR NYOKA: The million dollar puzzlement that I have iswhy were you then involved at all in this matter, being at theairport, coast or beach and then at Cradock, if you had businessregarding them?  And coming all the way from Vlakplaas.

COL VENTER: Chair it was my instruction to go to PortElizabeth.  Once I arrived there I was given the instruction tohelp with the identification and tracking of trained MK's andactivists who were being looked for.  I was asked or instructedto make available my askaris to take these persons at the airport.I think that they used this opportunity to use persons unknownin the area.  That was the end of my task, simply to take themat the airport.

MR NYOKA: As an experienced policeman did that not strikeyou as odd that you had no duty whatsoever in this?

COL VENTER: No Chair, this was after all their area,they
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knew what they wanted to do with the persons, why they would interrogatethem.  They dealt with the entire thing. I had other tasks tocontinue to try and track down other persons.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I just clarify something that I'm a littleconfused about.  Who did you go to the airport with?

COL VENTER: Sakkie van Zyl.

JUDGE WILSON: In what sort of vehicle?

COL VENTER: The person who worked with me, Gert Besselaarwas also with me, my apologies.  It was a Nissan Safari, that'sthe kind of vehicle which they used at that time. It was my ownvehicle.

JUDGE WILSON: How did the askaris travel?

COL VENTER: They used a combi, Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: Who else went?

COL VENTER: Dion Nieuhoudt.  I cannot remember how hegot there.  I think there was another vehicle involved with alsosome of their other staff?  There had been another person therewith me but he removed the bakkie afterwards.

JUDGE WILSON: You see in your statement you say Joe Mamasela,Kula Magaye and Gadeba followed with the minibus?  Is that so?

COL VENTER: That is correct.