Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR BERGER: How were you going to intimidate the residents of Boipatong?  How were you going to achieve that in the attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: To intimidate them would mean attacking them, nothing else.

MR BERGER: You also say that the political purpose of the attack on Boipatong was to teach Boipatong a lesson.  How were you going to teach Boipatong a lesson, what were  you going to do?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: The lesson is beating them up, nothing else.

MR BERGER: So who were you going to beat up?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: The comrades.  Some fled but we managed to get hold of others.

MR BERGER: But how were you going to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson.  Leave aside the comrades, how were you going to teach the residents a lesson?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Those who had not been attacked have learnt a lesson to the effect that we can beat them up, that is the lesson.

MR BERGER: So the purpose of the attack on Boipatong was to beat up all the residents of Boipatong, or as many of the residents as you could lay your hands on, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That was not the case.  It so happened but that was not the case.

MR BERGER: So the purpose was only to attack the Self Defence Units, is that right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And by attacking the Self Defence Units, you were going to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And this was your instruction before you left the hostel, only attack the Self Defence Units, we are not going to attack the people of Boipatong, that right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Even though that was not expressed as such, but I thought that when we went there we were looking for the boys who were burning people in the township.

MR BERGER: Well then how was it expressed at the meeting before you left, what were your instructions?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: At the meeting on the 17th if was said that the day has arrived, let us go now to Boipatong.  Each one of us men were ordered to go and fetch our weapons, such as knopkierries.  I was already armed.  Only a few went back to their rooms, but most of them had already armed themselves.

MR BERGER: You did not attend any meeting prior to the 17th, at which the possibility of an attack on anybody, whether in Boipatong or anywhere else, was discussed, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not attend any such meetings.

MR BERGER: There was no meeting at which you were present, where there was talk of attack at all, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And yet when the siren went off on the 17th of June 1992, you knew to go to the stadium with your weapon, why?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I want you to understand this very well, Mr Berger, when this siren went off I was in another room where we were drinking and when I left on my way to the stadium I came across Kwesele Zingene(?) and he said I should go back to my room and arm myself.

MR BERGER: Who said that to you?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It Kwesele Zingene Keswa.

MR BERGER: And the other residents who came, you don't know why they came out?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: On leaving their rooms, they were responding to the siren that was summoning us to the stadium, to the arena.

MR BERGER: So there was nothing said at the meeting of the 17th, about attacking the Self Defence Units, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I didn't hear that.

MR BERGER: Now you say you entered Boipatong, and I'm reading from your affidavit at page 222, and you were chasing the SDUs.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say
"They ran away and one ran into a house.  There was a man who tried to run away and I stabbed him with a spear.  That man jumped over a fence and he disappeared."
Now that man, was he an SDU member?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Even though I would not be certain what he was, but I think so.

MR BERGER: So he was a young man?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct, he was a youth but he was not young.

MR BERGER: That's the first man you stabbed, correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say
"We continued.  We got into a house.  Themba was with me and there were children there who were crying."
Is that Themba Mabote?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.
MR BERGER
"I asked the child: 'where are your parents'?"
That is correct.

MR BERGER: Was that two young children?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I saw only one, not two children.

MR BERGER: Well you said the children were crying, you say there was more than one child, so how many children were crying?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Maybe you did not get me well, I did not say they were crying in this house, I am saying they were crying in houses.  In the house that I entered I only found one child.

MR BERGER: Mr Dlamini, please listen to what you have confirmed under oath and confirmed again this morning. 	After this man has jumped over the fence and disappeared, this is what you say
"We continued.  We got into a house.  Themba was with me.  Children were crying there.  I asked the child: "where is your parents'?"

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, I did ask where the parents were but I was asking one child.  Maybe you do not understand me quite well.

MR BERGER: And you say the children were not crying in that house, they were crying somewhere else?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And then you say
"Boom, boom."
That is correct.

MR BERGER: What does that mean?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is a person's name.

MR BERGER: Is that the name of Thembiso Kubeka?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Sthembiso Kubeka.

MR BERGER: And that is applicant number 18.  He's one of your co-applicants, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Is he present today?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, he is present.
MR BERGER
"He then stabbed the child with a spear."
Am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So you asked the child: "where are your parents?", and before the child could answer, Sthembiso Kubeka stabbed the child with a spear.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Was the child a boy or a girl?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I think it was a boy if I'm not mistaken.

MR BERGER: About how old?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I don't want to attempt to lie, he was this high.  I cannot tell his age.

MR BERGER: You indicate a very small child, a very small boy.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Less than a metre high.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I don't anything about metres, I don't want to tell you a lie.

MR BERGER: I'm just confirming what you've indicated in Court.  Where did Sthembiso Kubeka stab this child, where on his body?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I think he stabbed him at the back because the child was facing me.  I think it was somewhere behind his back.

MR BERGER: How many times?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I think it was once because when he stabbed him once the child cried and I fled.

MR BERGER: Then you go on - well, let me ask you, you couldn't have thought that this child was a member of an SDU, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not think it like that.

MR BERGER: So there was absolutely no reason for this child to be stabbed?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, there was no reason.  Had I thought about that, it would have been me who stabbed him.

MR BERGER: Why?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It was a child.  I was not stabbing children that young, I wanted all the people, the ones who were troublesome, burning people around, not children.

MR BERGER: Did you say anything to Sthembiso Kubeka?