Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I would like you to clarify what do you mean when you say, are you saying he was intimidating ANC members or IFP members?

MS THABETE: Didn't you say when you were asked why you killed Mr Phumayo, you said the reason was because he was a very brave man and killing him would intimidate the ANC organisation?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I said that.

MS THABETE: Is that the only reason why you killed him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: There are many reasons, which made me to kill him.

MS THABETE: Can you tell the Committee what those reasons are?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: There were other members under my command, they used to come to me with complaints saying that they have been chased with pangas and they are not able to use the streets, and he himself, Mr Phumayo was the one who was involved in these incidents.
	These are some of the reasons why I attacked him, because I realised he is harassing the people.  I will say these are the reasons why I killed him.

MS THABETE: How old would you say the deceased was when you killed him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: You mean, I can't know.

MS THABETE: An estimation?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I will say he was even older compared to myself, but I won't be able to know how old.

MS THABETE: Okay, he was 25 years old.  So are you saying a 25 year old was intimidating people around the township, is that your evidence?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there something wrong with a 25 year old intimidating people?  Isn't that a probability you should accept, Ms Thabete?  Do you want to proceed with that point?

MS THABETE: Yes, but I thought I would say that on argument, the fact that he was so young.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You then can do so, but you will do so knowing that this panel is quite alive and sensitive to the fact that during the conflict, young people did intimidate, as young as 14.

MS THABETE: I am indebted to you Madam Chair.  Would it be incorrect or is it incorrect or is it not true what you have written in your statements on page 11, sorry page 8 actually, sorry.

MR LAX: Just read it to him, Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: I will read it to him just now.  You say I shot dead Mr Mshenga Phumayo on self defence, after he had attempted to shoot me.  This is not correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct, that is not true.

MS THABETE: And it is also not correct on page 28 where you say that he had tried to take out his firearm on you.
	You are saying that is not correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Okay.  You say several attempts were made to kill you.  How, how did they try to kill you, can you briefly explain?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Sometimes while walking on the way, I will hear some firearms and see people holding firearms, trying to shoot me and therefore I will try to run away, to escape from the danger.

MS THABETE: Now, my last question to you is, how do you think killing Mr Phumayo because he was a brave man and because you wanted to intimidate the ANC, how is that political?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he said that?  The ANC members would be intimidated and then they would join the IFP.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: My mistake Madam Chair.  Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, do you have any re-examination Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: No re-examination Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman, do you have any question to put to Mr Mtambo?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question.  Mr Mtambo, this decision that certain members would use some streets, the IFP would use some streets and the ANC would use other streets, was this a joint decision?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: It wasn't a joint decision, but it is something that happened, not knowing exactly how it came to be like that.

ADV BOSMAN: ... (tape ends) ... the one lot, some streets and the others another street, just the sort of thing that happened in practise?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: To explain further on that, is that if I were to be found in their streets, I would be hurt, but if they were found in your street, normally they wouldn't be hurt because we were the minority in the area.

ADV BOSMAN: That is sufficient, thank you very much.  No further questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You are a man of many words Mr Mtambo, you must try and just keep to what is being put to you, least you run the danger of even coming with answers which will be to the detriment of your own application.
	Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mtambo?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  You said in your evidence in chief, that you were sitting at Maria Mthetwa's and that you saw the deceased coming, you saw the deceased coming, you said you had information about him, in a sense you were expecting him?  Did I get the right impression?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: You said you had made a decision, you got out of the house, you sorted out your firearm behind the house, you went to where he was at that stage, next to the electrical box?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: You said that you greeted him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: He got scared when you were near him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MR LAX: For some reason he was bending away and you shot him, you took out your gun and you shot him while he was pointing away from you,  that is how it was translated.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now, did he try to run away that he was not facing you and you managed to shoot him in the head or in the back of the neck?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He didn't try to run away.  He didn't try to do anything because at that split of the moment, I shot him and he fell on the ground.
	I am the one who ran away thereafter.

MR LAX: What I am trying to understand is, when you talk to somebody, they usually face you, correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: May you please repeat the last part of your question.

MR LAX: What I am trying to understand is this, when you talk to somebody, you usually face them, face to face?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MR LAX: How did it come about that he turned around and you were able to shoot him in the back of the neck?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, it happened like that.  I will explain in this way, the clarify on that point, we were standing parallel, facing towards the same direction.   Thereafter myself, I moved back, that was at the stage where I shot him.

MR LAX: But surely if he was scared of you, he would have been watching you carefully?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MR LAX: So how come he didn't see you move back and pull the firearm out and then shoot him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I would also like to explain on that point, I was also afraid of him myself and then I had to do it quickly.
	I didn't show him that I, I wasn't supposed to show him that I was going to shoot him, because he might have fought back.

MR LAX: Just now Ms Thabete was asking you some questions around the issue of you pulling out your firearm or whether you took it out and so on.  I wasn't clear from the way it was translated, whether you were saying yes, it is a lie or yes, it is true, he tried to pull out his firearm, I couldn't work it out for my own answer.
	Can you just clarify that for me please?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I said no, he didn't pull out a firearm, I am the one who pulled out a firearm.

MR LAX: And can you explain to us why this appears in your statement, that he pulled out the firearm, but immediately he took it out, I ran fast close to him, and asked him what are you doing here?