Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally SRD was formed in the early eighties and Protechnic emerged out of it. At that point I was concerned that these were things that he was telling me about that had happened in the eighties. At that stage Roodeplaat had not been functioning fully. At that stage I had no knowledge of what emerged out of the trunks only in 1997. I had only this statement by him. I also had counter-intelligence reports like the one that you put in front of me the other day and which I gave you my opinion about the counter-intelligence reports in general. Where there were various allegations also made about Dr Jan Lourens and we can go and get that documentation.
 I wasn't certain what this man was saying to me whether it was true or not. But I listened to it and I said to him I don't want anything further to do. If you have that kind of information the right place to go and report that is in the authorities. And the authorities at that time was d'Oliviera Investigation. And I sincerely hope that he has told that to you. I made it afterwards at the 10 year anniversary of Protechnic where I saw him again I asked him what had happened he did not give me a direct answer. We were in a social function but he then indicated to me that he was going to testify in front of the TRC and I said to him all that you must remember is just tell them the truth. And I am reasonably satisfied with the evidence that he gave you. I can confirm what he said. It is true.

MR VALLY: At this stage were you made aware by OSEO that they were concerned about certain financial irregularities regarding transactions carried out by Dr Basson? We talking October 1993.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Good heavens Mr Vally I have read a statement to you this morning Sir.

MR VALLY: Yes we have heard that. I just  want you to confirm that yes or no?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Fine. So there was reason to be concerned about Dr Basson's activities?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Absolutely.

MR VALLY: And here you getting information that he is instructed by Dr Basson to make applicators which inject poison or shoot poison pellets into people and you say it doesn't concern Project Jotta. I don't need to take it further.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally, Mr Jan Lourens and I didn't discuss the gadgets and exactly what they could be used for and what their purpose were. He said to me that he had made certain gadgets and instruments. I wasn't even prepared to listen to what they were about. I didn't want to know about it. So I didn't have all the detail that you are now referring to. You are putting words in my mouth. I did not even discuss it with him.

MR VALLY: Well tell us what he told you?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He said that he was a man with engineering background. That he could produce substances with engineering capability and that he was asked to make certain instruments and gadgets such as umbrellas and screwdrivers. I then said I don't want to know any more about it.

CHAIRPERSON: General I am finding difficulty. I am having a great difficulty following your evidence. I thought that we understood each other very well that you understood what he said but you felt that because of the nature of the information that he was giving to you it was of a nature that it must be reported to higher authority and even referred him to the d'Oliviera Unit. Now did he tell you, okay maybe let's forget about what he said - toxins and all that. Did he tell you something the nature of which you felt a crime is being committed? That it is a contravention of the law in this country which is why you referred him to d'Oliviera? Because I mean if a man comes to me and says: "I am making screwdrivers. I am a scientist. I making umbrellas." And then you say: "No I don't want to hear about it. Go and talk to the Attorney General." Now how would you come to the conclusion that this is a matter for the ears of the Attorney General? So let us understand exactly what it is that Lourens said to you the nature of which you felt it was something to be heard by an Attorney General who is charged with the duty in the country to establish whether crime has been committed and deal with the crime as such.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Chairman I will do my best to try and say to you what he said to me. But I will sum it up by saying that I understood him to say that he had developed instruments or gadgets or I have no other name that I can use for it, that could be used to either kill or maim individuals. We did not use, Mr Chairman if you will allow me to finish. He did not go into the detail of these gadgets being made specifically for toxins or for poisons or whatever the case may be.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think for purposes of our question and our understanding that is the critical part and I think the question by Mr Vally still follows. Here is a person who is working as a scientist in a project which you associate in some way or the other with projects that you are also aware of and he says: "I am being asked by Dr Basson to manufacture instruments that can kill or maim." I think his question is even if we accept your own version and for purposes of this enquiry I am prepared to accept your own version - is it not now when you look back something which you should have dealt with in a much more thorough-going fashion than you actually did?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I am prepared to agree to that Mr Chairman but it is with the wisdom of hindsight. At the time I did not consider it to be that urgent to attack and besides that I couldn't do anything more than bring it to the attention of my direct commanding officer. Remember I said this morning that we had already at that point had the meeting with National Intelligence. At that meeting as I testified this morning National Intelligence indicated to me that they were investigating far more than the Office of Serious Economic Offences enquiry. So I, it is true I was beginning to realise that there was something amiss. I found myself in a difficult position with regard to General Liebenberg. I tried to test the water by seeing how he would react. Thereafter his position was taken over by General Meiring. The demarche situation began to appear and it was then in February the next year that I realised what the direct link was. And I testified to that effect this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: And how did General Liebenberg react when you advised him of this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I testified this morning that he indicated to me what he had done on a number of occasions before to say: "This type of thing is dealt with by the d'Oliviera Commission. And as you well know up to this stage nobody has been prosecuted or proceedings been taken against by the d'Oliviera investigation on any so-called." And those were his words, "so-called third force activities." So he really pushed it off the table totally.

MR VALLY: You are aware of Dr Lourens' statement that General Liebenberg advised him: "I want my toys back"?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And by that he was referring to?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Correct.

MR VALLY: What was he referring to?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He was referring to the gadgets that he had made for him.

MR VALLY: What else?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir I don't know what you.

MR VALLY: You not aware of the explosives?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir.

MR VALLY: The oval boxes which could explode?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am sorry I know nothing about that.

MR VALLY: The letter bomb mechanism?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir.

MR VALLY: Dr Lourens didn't tell you all these things?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No.

MR VALLY: He did not tell you at all?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally I am trying to concentrate exactly on what he said to me. I am, I cannot recall him saying anything about - did you say letter bombs?

MR VALLY: Mechanism for a letter bomb?