Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Commissioner, not somewhere, it has been put on record exactly where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, although it was only said when we were at the inspection in loco, it hasn't been testified to Mr van Zyl here, where that, the distance where that vehicle parked where Mr van Zyl pointed out and it was paced to be 42 metres to the gate, to the entrance.  The vehicle reversed about one car length back and then, that is when the bomb was activated.
	It would have been approximately 30 metres from the ...

MR WILLIAMS: Is that correct Mr van Zyl?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: And that is at the back of the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr van Zyl, I want to refer you to Bundle B, page 42.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you ask the question, the vehicle that you were in Mr van Zyl, was a hired vehicle?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, I assumed at that stage that it was the personal vehicle of Gakkie himself, it was an old Datsun vehicle, I don't even know who it belonged to.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you didn't change number plates or anything like that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr van Zyl, on page 42, would you mind just going back to the seventh line from the bottom?  Would you mind reading that portion out to us please?
MR VAN ZYL
"... I noticed one white person there, one white man there that Gakkie identified as Peter Oliver.  There was also another person, or other people that Gakkie identified to me like Ferndale and Peter Williams.  We were approximately 30 metres or a little bit more from the hall.  Some of the Steering Committee members drove off and some were still standing in the parking area, talking.  I then told Gakkie to drive around the block, so that I could detonate the mine."

MR WILLIAMS: Now, Ferndale and Williams, did each one get into his own vehicle or did they travel together in one car?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I really cannot tell you that.

MR WILLIAMS: The people, the five names that Gakkie mentioned to you, or that Gakkie identified here at the scene, did they all, could you see whether they went into different vehicles?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot tell you whether some of the people were driving together or whether everyone went in their own vehicles, it is impossible for me.

MR WILLIAMS: How many vehicles did the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement use that night, according to your own observation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already testified to that, I said that I believed that there were approximately five vehicles in the parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: And they used all five vehicles, is that your testimony?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So at the time when the bomb was detonated, there were no vehicles at the back, in the parking area, is that your evidence?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is also my evidence.

MR WILLIAMS: Now this sentence
"... I then told Gakkie ...",
	sorry, just the sentence before that -
"... some of the Steering Committee members drove off and some of them were still in the parking area, standing, talking."
	People were standing, talking.
"... I then told Gakkie to drive around the block, so that I could detonate the mine."
	Would you agree with me that that statement is open to the interpretation that while they were busy standing, talking there, you asked Gakkie to drive so that you could activate the limpet mine?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is not what I am trying to say here.

MR WILLIAMS: But you agree with me that the statement, as it appears here, is open to that interpretation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is your interpretation.

MR WILLIAMS: But is it a reasonable interpretation, purely based on ...

CHAIRPERSON: We are not really interested in what interpretations can be put, maybe you can ask him, then it is a question of argument, whether there is a conflict or not.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would never have activated the mine if there were still people in the parking area and this is why my evidence is very clear that we then drove passed the front of the building, where we went to park.  We parked where I told you we had parked, at that stage there were no people or vehicles in the parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, I will leave it at that, Mr van Zyl.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: How many times did you attempt to detonate the bomb?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: As I gave evidence yesterday, two or three times I pressed the button in an attempt to detonate it, and it did not work.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you change the batteries of the remote?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said that already, Mr Williams, he said he looked at it, but he testified that they didn't have any spare batteries.

MR WILLIAMS: So if someone says so, that person would clearly be lying, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Before I go further, I just want to ask you in your statement you say that Staal Burger said that this project made provision for the loss of lives.  Can you confirm that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: As long as it is limited to members of the Kewtown Youth  Movement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: How would that take place?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: What do you mean?

MR WILLIAMS: What steps would one take to enable, to make sure that if people had to die, it is limited to members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?  How would one give practical effect to a provision of that nature?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is exactly the arrangements that we had made.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you have any explanation how you would go about making sure that only, if people had to die, it is only those members and no one else?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is very difficult to do it.  But I mean I had made certain arrangements, in order to prevent that any person, this includes the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, would be injured or killed in this explosion, and these preventative measures, I have already testified to openly.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you tell Gakkie that you wanted to be in a position to see the people when they left the building?  In other words, to observe the people come out of the building and obviously that there is no people in the building at the time when the bomb go off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I wanted to ensure that the people who had attended the meeting, were not in the hall or in the vicinity of the hall when the bomb went off, and it was for this reason that I was close enough so that Gakkie could identify certain of the persons to me, and that I could ensure that the vicinity and the building, was safe when the bomb was detonated.

MR WILLIAMS: If someone says that you said that they should go to the front entrance so that you could see when the people were leaving the building, that would clearly be a lie, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Absolutely.

MR WILLIAMS: Can we just recap, where were you relative to the building, when the people left the building?

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, I think ...

CHAIRPERSON: That was the place, the 42 paces from the gate that leads into the car park, that was pointed out at the inspection?

MR MARTINI: No Mr Commissioner, it is not correct.  As pointed out, wasn't sure, as Mr Commissioner put on the record earlier, whether opposite the Civic Centre or the - Mr Chairperson mentioned, some buildings ...

CHAIRPERSON: You've got the Civic Centre and the blocks of flats.

MR MARTINI: Yes, and the parking lot is facing away from the Early Learning Centre.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can answer the question, where were you when Gakkie identified the people who came out of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We were at the back, close to the parking area, but not at the specific point where we were parked when the bomb was detonated.  It was in that vicinity, but I cannot remember exactly where.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you drive three or four times around the building that night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not that I can remember.

MR WILLIAMS: If anyone should say that, that person would be lying, not so?