Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR KNOETZE: And then he also said, which is quite interesting, "there are going to be bodies".   You did not say that Kloppers said that Oelofse said that he wanted to see bodies?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR KNOETZE: Kloppers said "there are going to be bodies"?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's how I said it, yes.

MR KNOETZE: Maybe you understood that there are going to be bodies when the revolution starts, whenever that might be?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Maybe I could not distinguish what Oelofse said, because I wasn't present when Oelofse gave these instructions, I accepted that all the instructions came from General Oelofse.

MR KNOETZE: I think you're missing the point.   The point I'm trying to make is, your statement that "there are going to be bodies", can you link that with the revolution which was still going to take place?   Aren't we talking about something that's going to happen in the future?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I was aware of the fact that the revolution would start that evening.

MR KNOETZE: And as you know, Van der Schyff will also say that he did not hear that Oelofse said that he wanted to see bodies that specific night?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is possible.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOETZE

MR DREYER: I want to start at the same point where my friend started with Mr Van der Schyff, it is from a different angle.   You already confirmed that you said that what you heard from Mr Kloppers at the roadhouse was that the general said that "we had to start working", but at that same point you did not elaborate precisely about what the general then said to him, what this work would entail?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, he didn't say anything else.

MR DREYER: He said the revolution was going to begin?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I was under the impression, and he placed me under that impression, and it's still my impression, that it was an instruction which he received at the order group.

MR DREYER: It's just important to me, as it was to my predecessor who asked the questions, I wanted us to take it in a chronological order, when you were asked at the roadhouse, said at the roadhouse that the general said that you had to start work, you were not then also told what the general said this work would entail, not at that stage.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was in that same discussion at the roadhouse, yes, but I might be wrong as far as the chronological order is concerned and how I remember it.

MR DREYER: You see, that's exactly where I'm heading at.  Just because maybe there was a misunderstanding as far as you were concerned with regards to what formed part of the general's instruction and what formed part of the instruction Kloppers gave you, and so maybe there also could have been a misunderstanding with Kloppers with regard to the actual instructions of Oelofse?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I did not received instructions from Oelofse, I got it from Chief Commandant Kloppers, and those instructions which I got from Kloppers, where he said, and he said that he came from the general and I accepted it like that.

MR DREYER: Let's say differently, let's put it differently.  I'm probably going to say the same to you as I said to the previous applicant who testified, I accept that you executed what you believed to be an instruction, but if there wasn't an instruction, then you did not follow an instruction of Oelofse but only that of Kloppers?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, personally, yes.

MR DREYER: Let's look at it from another angle, you are saying that he said that the general said, "We must begin to work".   Now you testified that you did not do service or whatever, but you had army training in 1971, is that correct?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And in the time when you received military training, surely at one point or another, except for the fact that you had to run around a lot during that time during the army, surely you must have been exposed to the principle that there was a rank order and structure, and that you do not act unless you receive instructions?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

MR DREYER: In your time when you were exposed to the military milieu, were you ever placed in a situation where somebody gives a very vague instruction, or in your military time were you used to the fact that if the corporal who was then head of the battalion you were part of, if he wanted something to be done, he'd say that you go there and you do this, and then you'd do that and then you return, is that correct?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Yes, then you do not question a higher rank's instruction.   All I want to know is, do you agree with me, Kloppers did not tell you "Oelofse said begin to work", and if I say "begin to work", it means go and do that and that thing, it wasn't conveyed to you in that manner?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.   He said he came from a group, order group, and you must remember I did not know Oelofse, but Oelofse said the following, I cannot tell you exactly what he said, maybe my words differ from the others, but that's how I remember it.

MR DREYER: No, I don't want to be unfair towards you, not for one second do I expect of you or any other person to tell me exactly what somebody told you in 1993, let's forget the precise words, let's accept your version and your memory concerning these words might differ from the other applicants, but what I would like to know is, do you agree with me that you did not receive a definite and complete instruction which then would have come from Oelofse?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR DREYER: The second thing I would like to learn from you in opposition to the other applicants, and once again it's your choice of words, but you said that Kloppers told you there are going to be bodies?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, he said that.

MR DREYER: The other applicants, or the other witnesses, or the evidence of other witnesses is completely different and more according to the line of Oelofse said that he wanted to see bodies.   Do you agree with me it's not quite the same?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I agree.

MR DREYER: But do you stick to the fact that what you heard from Kloppers was that there's going to be bodies?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I might be wrong.

MR DREYER: But do you stick to your version?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that's how I remember it and how I convey it.

MR DREYER: Now, and to also, with regards to the questions already asked you, if it's said to you that there's going to be a revolution, did you link that to possible death?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, because revolution means to rebel.

MR DREYER: At any stage did anyone tell you, whether it be at the roadhouse or at Martin's house or wherever, maybe on the way to the scene where you would have had the roadblock, the purpose of the roadblock would be to look for firearms?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR DREYER: Let's turn the question around then, I'm going to leave it in your hands, you tell me as you remember it, what was the instruction that you got from Kloppers with regards to what the instruction of Oelofse would have been with regard to the purpose of the roadblock?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: This happened at the plot.   We were told that we're going to set up a roadblock and the purpose of that roadblock would be to find weapons, that as well, to find weapons and he gave us the blue light and we received the instruction that we are going to set up a roadblock.  I was aware of the fact that people might be killed in the process, otherwise we wouldn't have had weapons on us.