Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you please read paragraph 418 out?
GEN WEBB
"Projects Imperial, Maagd and Maxi each involved the collection of information in other African countries.
		The Commission finds that the CCB was a creation of the SADF, and an integral part of South Africa's counter-insurgency system which, in the course of its operations, perpetrated gross violations of human rights, including killings against both South African and non-South African citizens.  The Commission finds that activities of the CCB constituted a systematic pattern of abuse which entailed deliberate planning on the part of the leadership of the CCB and the SADF.  The Commission finds these institutions and their members accountable for the aforesaid gross violations of human rights."

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree with that conclusion of the Commission?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which part of it do you not agree with?

EDWARD WEBB: Where's this "gross human violations"?  Where did we participate in murder?

GEORGE BIZOS: Gross human rights violations, I think when they use the term here, General Webb, they use it as it's been defined in the Act, the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act number 34/95.  There's a definition in Section 1 which defines it as any killing, abduction, torture, other severe injury, or any conspiracy or attempt.  That is what a gross human rights violation is, as used, I'm sure, in this context rather than just a little translation of it.  So it would include any conspiracy and attempt to, for instance, murder or abduct.

EDWARD WEBB: The only case during my time was the Athlone bomb incident.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please turn to paragraph 405, read out paragraphs 405, 406 and 407.
GEN WEBB
"Nonetheless, the CCB did kill some opponents of the government and tried to kill others.  There is evidence that the CCB was involved in the killings of Mr David Webster, Mr Anton Lubowski, Ms Dulcie September, Mr Jacob Boy Molekwane, Mr Matsela Polokela in Botswana and Ms Tsitsi Chiliza in Harare.  (This last was an operation that went wrong:  the intended target was Mr Jacob Zuma in Maputo.
		It also attempted, or conspired to kill others.  Amnesty applications have been filed by CCB operatives Joe Verster, Wouter Basson, 'Staal' Burger and 'Slang' van Zyl for the plots to kill Dullah Omar and Mr Gavin Evans.
			Other information available to the Commission, has linked the CCB to the killings of Ms Florence Ribeiro, Dr Fabian Ribeiro and Mr Piet Ntuli, the attempted killings of Mr Godfrey Motsepe in Brussels, Mr Jeremy Brickhill in Harare, Mr Albie Sachs in Maputo, Comrade Che Ogara, (MK nom-de-guerre) in Botswana and Mr Frank Chikane, the plans to kill Mr Joe Slovo in London in the mid-1980s, Mr Oliver Tambo in Harare in 1987, Ms Gwen Lister, Mr Daniel Tjongarero, Mr Hidipo Hamutenya in South West Africa, as well as Mr Jay Naidoo, Mr Roland White and Mr Kwenza Mhlaba, in South Africa."

GEORGE BIZOS: Now do you agree that the work of the CCB, as evidenced in Exhibit L, as evidenced by the evidence of Mr Verster, as evidenced by the evidence of Mr van Zyl, was a conspiracy amongst its members to commit crimes, including murder?

EDWARD WEBB: Are you asking me to comment on these documents?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, listen to my question.  Do you agree that on the evidence of Exhibit L, the evidence of Mr Verster and the evidence of Mr van Zyl, that the CCB was an organisation put together for the purposes of committing crimes, both within and outside South Africa?

EDWARD WEBB: The word "crimes", I don't agree with that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well what is killing, what is bombing a building, what is burning a vehicle, what is - you name it?  Do you want to redefine crime and make useless all the books that we have all been brought up on?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If they were not crimes that were being committed, is there any reason why such lengths should have been gone to as to distance the projects of the CCB from the Defence Force as such?  In other words, to have these people not on the payroll, they're private operatives, to issue them with non-issue weapons, I think it was said, that sort of thing - I mean if they were caught, then the Defence Force wouldn't be blamed?  I mean these are the lengths that were went to, front companies, front operations.  Why would they do that if they weren't realising that they were committing crimes?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, I think it's perhaps the word "crime" which is difficult for me to accept, because we believed in what we did, we had a bona fide belief in what we did and we thought it was necessary to carry out our task.  With hindsight, I suppose you can say that it was crime.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well, please take it in retrospect if you like, that in retrospect you agree that crime was the business of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And for what period were you the Head of that organisation?

EDWARD WEBB: Officially from 1 January 1989, to early in 1990.

GEORGE BIZOS: Until January 1990 when you came together to prepare your statement for the Harms Commission?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, it's not acceptable to me to say that we got together to prepare our statements, that was when we saw our legal representatives.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, very well, right.  Now the Commission says that the persons that took part in that organisation are responsible for the acts, now would you accept responsibility for the offences - maybe that's a better word, that will sound better in your ears, for the offences that were committed during your period of stewardship, being the leader of that organisation?  Do you take personal responsibility for that?

EDWARD WEBB: These two incidents in respect of the foetus and the bomb at Athlone, those are the two for which I take responsibility.

GEORGE BIZOS: What about the people that the Commission says were killed by the CCB during your stewardship of the CCB?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, with respect, I don't think the things to which Mr Bizos is referring don't have any dates.  As far as I can see, each incident mentioned here is not linked to a specific time at which he specifically was the Chair of the CCB.  So it's then unfair to say that the Commission mentions these incidents, are incidents when he was the Head of the CCB.  If we give dates and say for instance that it was in January 1989, whilst he was the Chairperson, Mr X was eliminated or whatever, then the witness can comment, but if there's no specific date furnished then he can't say whether it was during the time that he was the Chairperson of the CCB or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Mr Bizos put was, during - the questions was, during the period of his stewardship, from the 1st of January 1989 through to when it terminated early in 1990, does he as the leader of the CCB, as the main person in the CCB, the Chairman, accept accountability for the projects of the CCB, in his capacity as the Chairman, that were carried out?  Now we know that he's applied for the two but we've also heard evidence that there were others, like the Dullah Omar and the Gavin Evans operation, does he accept responsibility for the operations or the projects carried out by the CCB, that were carried out during his period of stewardship.  I think that's a straightforward question, I don't think all of these were meant to fall in that last year, that were read out in paragraphs ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) is now made ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR DU PLESSIS: Formulated like you have just done, I have no problem with it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you accept personal responsibility for what happened during your Chairmanship of the activities of the CCB

EDWARD WEBB: I accept the responsibility, the full responsibility for those aspects which I approved, yes.