Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you think that possibly having a polite discussion with him about your two ideologies, might have got better results than blowing his brain, or his finishing up with a serious injury in his brain?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, we did not blow out his brain like Mr Bizos mentioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I amended that, I said he finished up with an injury.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I did not deal with him.  I do not believe - it was not his ideology to deal with us.  There was conflict, he hated me for what I stood for, the SB's.

GEORGE BIZOS: You do agree that Mr Biko's death far from advancing the cause of the apartheid government that you wanted to support, it had exactly the opposite effect?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't it occur to you and ...

CHAIRPERSON: This was foreseeable, wasn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am sorry, was there an answer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You said yes, I am sorry.

ADV DE JAGER: Did the government at the time foresee this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't believe so, because then they would have done it in the bench.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know what Mr Kruger's reaction was to this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he left me cold.

GEORGE BIZOS: His death left him cold?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he regret it shortly thereafter when the world turned against us, against the government that you were supporting?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Please repeat the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Kruger regret his remark when the world turned against the government you were supporting?

ADV BOOYENS: Unless my learned friend could show that the Sergeant was a confidant of the Minister, I don't think that is a proper question.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am talking about public statements Mr Chairman, I am not talking about the private thoughts of Mr Kruger.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the nature that he was cold.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I was never privy to his private thoughts, but I am asking whether shortly thereafter, he persisted in it or whether he realised that he had been wrong?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I do not have independent recollection but it is possible.  He was probably wrongly quoted.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Wrongly quoted, I see?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I will assume, that is what the politicians say in general.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, you mean that Mr Kruger said that he was wrongly quoted when he was reported to having said that it leaves me cold?  Is that what you meant?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is true.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, actually you are not far wrong, it says that we who don't speak Afrikaans properly, don't understand the term it leaves me cold.  That was his first excuse which Afrikaner writers took exception to, that it means just that, but anyway don't let's become too involved in that.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us come to the assault on Mr Jones.  Why did you hit Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would say more out of frustration because he did not want to cooperate.

GEORGE BIZOS: I thought you were a disciplined officer you told us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I was.

GEORGE BIZOS: What I do not understand, is this.  You didn't need Mr Jones' evidence or anyone else for a charge against Mr Biko that he had broken his banning order, did you?   He was arrested outside the area where he was supposed to be?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anybody suggest that he should be charged with the offence in respect of which there was evidence against him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.  I want to speculate again, I do not have independent recollection what the decision was by Siebert, but because there was no offence we had to attempt to use him as a witness to give evidence against Mr Biko - something which I don't believe would have happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but on a charge of contravening his banning order, you didn't really need his evidence?  The only thing that you had two good police witnesses that he was arrested outside Grahamstown?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is so, but I think this was the Attorney General who decided whether there would be a further charge.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, what I am asking you is why did you bother to interrogate Mr Jones about an offence so easily provable against Mr Biko by the calling of the two policemen that had arrested him outside Grahamstown Magisterial district?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The experience at that time was that it was an inferior charge and usually they would get a suspended sentence.  I don't think this was the objective of my seniors.  Anyway we could not just detain him because of that in terms of the Security Act.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  So you - to question Mr Jones about the breech of the banning order was not really worthwhile your time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so, but his visit - the places that they visited and the people that they came into contact with personally, the activists at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Did you have any information at the time that there was anything illegal done or discussed either by Mr Jones or Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.  There was no information available with regard to Mr Jones, but afterwards we generated information from him.

GEORGE BIZOS: So when you started interrogating Mr Jones, specifically what questions of yours did he not answer when you decided to start hitting him with a hosepipe?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was about the establishment of the inflammatory pamphlet and that he had any knowledge of the drafting of this inflammatory pamphlet and his involvement with it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right, did he say to you that he knew nothing?  In the beginning did he say to you that he knew nothing about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he denied it right from the start.

GEORGE BIZOS: From the start?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: And the visit to Cape Town.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well,  let us take them one at a time in relation to the pamphlet.
	He said that he had nothing to do with the pamphlet, either with the drawing up of the pamphlet or its distribution, he had no knowledge of it at all?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he denied it.  The distribution, that he knew of the distribution.

GEORGE BIZOS: And after great pain had been inflicted on him, which reduced him to tears and the other treatment which he speaks of which you do not admit, but let us deal on your basis only on what you admit, did he admit that he had something to do with this pamphlet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he mentioned that he had seen it and that he was in the room where Mr Titi and the deceased, Mr Biko was present and the contents of the pamphlet was discussed, and at a later stage he, in his office and kitchen and the typists ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you in court, or before the Committee in Port Elizabeth where he dissociated himself completely with this pamphlet and particularly his statement that Mr Biko and he would not associate themselves with the type of English that this pamphlet is written in?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, at the time when you started beating up Mr Jones, what did you hope to achieve by torturing him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believed that he would give me the information, his resistance was broken down and then later make him a witness.  That is what I believed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did it occur to you what is the value of the information given by a person under torture and what sort of a witness would he be if he got to the witness box and said that he did make a statement to you after being beaten up with a hosepipe, what did you think the Court would have done with that evidence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He would not have accepted that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.