Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1976-07-19

MR VAN WYK: That's right, the idea was that we would go in without her noticing us and if in the event that she does notice us we would tie her up in the back room, that's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why was that not done?

MR VAN WYK: I think when we were at that premises and we were in that bush waiting for her to stop her activities in front of the stoep there where she was busy, when she came forward I think she might have seen us or saw something move or suspected something, when she came forward and she looked into White's eyes I think that was a surprise.  Also when he greeted her in her own language and she turned around and she ran away I think that was a surprise to see her seeing us there when we did not even enter the house as such.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ja but she was so close that she looked into White's eyes and he even greeted her.

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why didn't you run up to her, grab her and tie her?

MR VAN WYK: At that stage as I was not in the position to - or a leadership position at that stage and when he shot her I mean I could not go against his commands seeing - because of the oath even we had, but besides that oath there was also this feeling of we were together, we were in this together as fighters for the cause.  And when he deviated from that plan and he shot her, as I say at that stage due to my convictions it really did not touch me deeply when he did that and I sort-of reconciled myself with that on the scene.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, the real question I am asking you now is, had White so chosen would he have been in a position to can give chase and tie her rather than shooting her?  That is the substance of my question.

MR VAN WYK: Yes he would have been in a position to do that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you ask him why he didn't do that instead of electing to shoot?

MR VAN WYK: No we really did not speak much about it, we only spoke about it on the way back from Louis Trichardt and we - I think we were, everyone of us were busy with his own thoughts.   And I don't know what his reply would have been, I really don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And now with regard to the husband, why was the husband shot, why was he not tied?

MR VAN WYK: Ja, you see he was running away from the scene and he was about 20 metres away from White at that stage and White was running after him and I was still in the bush and he shouted at me to shoot as well because the man was running away.  I think he had a convenient advantage over us in that he was already say 15, 20 metres ahead of us, so that he might have gotten away and blow the whistle at that stage as well.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Before you gave chase to him was he aware of you?

MR VAN WYK: No he was not aware of me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He could just have run away further and further away from you wouldn't he?  He was in a position to run away from you?

MR VAN WYK: That's right, that's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The worst that could have happened was that he could have run away without having seen you?

MR VAN WYK: Ja, but he already saw White at that stage.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh had he already seen White?

MR VAN WYK: White had already fired a few shots but he missed at that stage.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No before - he only noticed White and please tell me if I am wrong, he only became aware of White after White had decided to give chase to him?  Had White remained posted at the point where he was would he still have seen White?

MR VAN WYK: Ja.  White at that stage was going forward again to see if there was any movement around the house, so he was continuing with the plan of entering the premises and obtaining the weapons.  So White was already out of the bushes onto the lawn at that stage when he saw White and that's when he ran away.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now onto the third victim, you say you shot, you are the person who shot the third victim in the wardrobe?

MR VAN WYK: Ja, after White already shot a few shots into there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, yes.  And you said you had a feeling or you noticed that there was probably somebody in the wardrobe that's why you fired a shot?

MR VAN WYK: That's right, after he fired I also fired a shot, a few shots into the cupboard there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you were surprised to - and you later discovered that it was Mrs Roux or le Roux?

MR VAN WYK: Mrs Roux, that's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you described her as a White lady?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you shot, when you realised there was somebody in the wardrobe and when you shot, was your expectation that it could have been a Black person?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, it could have been a friend of the housekeeper I suppose.  The main reason why I did not think it would be a White was that when White saw the BMW leave at six o'clock he said that everyone was accounted for as he knew them, and I really thought that the premises would be empty except for the housekeeper at that stage.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Had you imagined that it could be a White person would you still have fired the shot or not?

MR VAN WYK: No then I would not have fired the shot.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did these people die at once, at the spot?

MR VAN WYK: I don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If I understood you correctly the first victim after being shot did you say that her throat was cut?

MR VAN WYK: Yes that's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did that happen to her husband as well?

MR VAN WYK: To her husband as well, and to Mrs Roux.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And who did all this cutting, one and the same person?

MR VAN WYK: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr White?

MR VAN WYK: Mr White.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Had Mr White finished cutting the housekeeper's throat when her husband arrived at the scene?

MR VAN WYK: Yes he did.

JUDGE WILSON: And he left her lying there?

MR VAN WYK: Yes he did.

JUDGE WILSON: And when he was going to go into the house?

MR VAN WYK: He came back to me again after he signalled me to stay put and he said that we would continue.  I thought because of the plan that we would retreat, he said no we would continue.  Then he went forward again and at that stage her husband came around the corner.

JUDGE WILSON: And saw Mr White and presumably he saw his wife's body with her throat cut?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

JUDGE WILSON: And he ran.

MR VAN WYK: He ran.

JUDGE WILSON: This was on a farm I believe?

MR VAN WYK: It's not a farm, it's a smallholding.

JUDGE WILSON: A smallholding.

MR VAN WYK: Ja a smallholding.

JUDGE WILSON: How close is the nearest house?

MR VAN WYK: The hotel was just over the street, it's about I'd say 200 metres or 150 metres about.

JUDGE WILSON: So you had fired a number of shots but you went on with the operation despite the fact there was a hotel a 150 metres away, so they must have heard your shots?

MR VAN WYK: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't care who you killed that morning.

MR VAN WYK: I, first of all I did not expect anyone to be killed, as I said ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: But you killed a man, you knew you shot him ...(intervention)

MR VAN WYK: I know, I shot ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: And you went on.

MR VAN WYK: I shot a man and I went on, and I plead guilty to that.  I did do it.  And at that stage as I said I reconciled with myself because of the way I felt and the ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: That it was just a Black?

MR VAN WYK: Yes that's how I felt at that stage.

JUDGE WILSON: And then you shot again?

MR VAN WYK: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just ask you a question to what was being asked.  You - the first person to be shot was the helper and she was shot by yourself on the instructions of Mr White?

MR VAN WYK: No, no.  I shot Mr Dubane, the second person to be killed.