Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  'Cause you were coming into the Security Forces cold, as it were, I mean you were coming from the Infantry School, Combat School, conventional warfare into a completely different sphere of operation, unconventional.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have expected Gen Joubert to have fully briefed you about the purposes of Special Forces and the CCB in particular?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, but once again, he didn't tell me anything about operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) on operations, you are not answering the question, I will ask it for the last time.  Would there have been any reason for Gen Joubert to hide from you what the purpose of the CCB was in relation to internal assassinations?

EDWARD WEBB: He never discussed internal murders, assassinations, with me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there a period during which you were in office and Gen Joubert was going to go out of office, in which, you know, you were sort of the Chairman-in-waiting, so to speak, and working in close contact with Gen Joubert?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: For how long did that last?

EDWARD WEBB: Just a little bit less than a month.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well a couple of weeks should surely be enough to say that this is our objective in relation to external operations, these are our objectives in relation to internal operations and this is the line of authority and this is the General Manager's function and this is the Chairman's function.  Did any such discussion take place between you and Joubert during the period?

EDWARD WEBB: In broad detail, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: How broad must the detail be not to address the issue of whether a creature of the South African Defence Force is going to take into its embrace assassins?  How detailed - what sort of detail was that?  Wasn't it a fundamental issue in which one would have expected one General handing over to another General, to make full disclosure?

EDWARD WEBB: He didn't make any full disclosures to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Did he have any reason to mislead you?

EDWARD WEBB: From the very nature of Special Forces' activities and because the CCB was a covert operation, he gave me no detail or operational aspects.

GEORGE BIZOS: We're not talking about detail of operations already done, we are talking about one General handing over to another and not talking to him about what the policy of the Army's creature was in relation to internal assassinations.  You know, I want to sound a note of warning if I may, General, that we are going to argue that if you persist in withholding information, in our view, in the manner in which you are doing now, that we will argue that you are not making full disclosure as you are obliged to in these proceedings.  I'll ask the question again.  Are you asking the Committee to believe that one General handed over to another without disclosing to the latter what the policy of the CCB was in relation to internal assassinations?  You're asking the Committee to believe that?

EDWARD WEBB: He never discussed internal assassinations with me.  Region 6 had been established as an internal region with a covert potential, which gave us the potential and the capacity to act internally, but he didn't discuss these aspects which you mentioned, with me.

GEORGE BIZOS: This ability to act, did that include assassination?

EDWARD WEBB: The objective of the CCB was a maximal disruption of the enemy.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know, General, the other thing is that we are accustomed to the euphemisms and the other nice words that are used, please answer the question, assassination is assassination.  Please answer the question.

EDWARD WEBB: I have answered it, he never discussed assassination with me.

MR LAX: You see - sorry, you seem to be missing something here, or I don't know what's going on, but you're being asked did he discuss the policy about assassination, you're not asked whether he discussed projects ...

EDWARD WEBB: No, we did not discuss a policy of assassination, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: General, you've come from the conventional side of the Army, you know nothing or very little about Special Forces, on the conventional side of the Army where you were in the Infantry School, Combat School, assassinations weren't part of your conduct.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you're still in the Army, you're still a General, you've come across to Special Forces, and you've talked here about if somebody had to be killed or assassinated, you would only give authority once you got authority from above, what made you assume that assassinations were part of the brief of Security Forces, if it was never mentioned to you?

EDWARD WEBB: I never approved any assassinations.  I got the impression ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But you've told us that as far as you were concerned, assassinations were part of the power, the jurisdiction, the functions of the CCB, because you said that if there was to be a project involving assassinations you would have to go to higher authority, so there was the possibility of an operation conducted by CCB which would involve the assassination of an individual.  Now what I'm asking you is, taking into account your background, coming from the conventional side of the Army where such a policy didn't exist, what made you believe that it was part of the function of CCB even to contemplate the assassination of an individual?  If you weren't told this by Gen Joubert in the hand-over period, why did you think it was possible?

EDWARD WEBB: Because we were fighting this battle against our enemies.  If I can explain somewhat further, Gen Joubert had a contact in the South African Police, when I took over from him there was no contact in the South African Police.  Now with hindsight, if I think about it, I got the impression that Special Forces came up to a certain level, a new Commander came and then certain things were eliminated or cut away.  But Gen Joubert never informed me that I could authorise murders internally.  What I did answer Adv Wessels, if such a thing was submitted to me I would have no reason to keep it back, I would have taken it to higher authorities.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he say that you could authorise assassinations externally?

EDWARD WEBB: I'm not talking about external operations.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you know I'm not asking you to deal with any specific operation, even though I believe that you haven't got the right to do that, the question is, what was your mandate as the Chairman of the CCB?  Which is - the mandate of the CCB and the modus operandi of the CCB is one of the issues which is properly to be examined, we submit, before this Committee.  Did he say that you had the authority to authorise assassinations outside the country?

EDWARD WEBB: Not specifically, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: No.  So as far as you were concerned there was no difference between internal and external mandate?  Are you saying that?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you had no authority or it was never discussed with you to assassinate anybody, inside or outside the country?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But then I want to return to the Chairman's question, why did you have to go either to the - well, to the Head of the Army in order to authorise an assassination, if assassination was not discussed at all?

EDWARD WEBB: According to information, well the information we got would determine what kind of operation we were to carry out and if it was an assassination then I would go to higher authority, if it was some other kind of operation it would go to higher authority, it wouldn't be spelt out ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: Who told you that if there's to be an assassination you must go to higher authority?  Who told you that?

EDWARD WEBB: It wasn't told to me, it's simple logic.