Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just answer the question.  The question was had you heard of any violence in the area before then?

MR LAX: A simple yes or no would be sufficient.

MR NDLOVU: I don't remember.

MR LAX: Now, you said the IFP group was around 100.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: Mr Sithole told us it was around 20.

MR NDLOVU: I don't disagree with what Sithole said because this a hypothetical figure.  It's just a rough estimation so that we will not be exact as to the amount.  This is just an estimation so I would not disagree with what Sithole said.

MR LAX: But you will concede that there's a big difference between approximately 100 and approximately 20.  The difference is 80 people.

CHAIRPERSON: Five times, the difference.  One's one fifth of the other.

MR NDLOVU: This is why I say we see different, as also the fact that we arrested different, at different times. ...(indistinct) one when we being arrested, and that's why, that is why I explained to the Court of law that ...(inaudible). I am saying, this is why I'm saying it could have been that we were 100 because we were 21 when we were being arrested.  And out of this 21 there were some who remained.  They were released subsequently after checking up.

MR LAX: Just one last thing.  Did this, did your lawyer before he led your evidence, either this morning or yesterday afternoon, not go through this whole document with you?

MR NDLOVU: No, he just touched there and there.

MR LAX: So he didn't read you each section, confirm with you whether it was correct or not?  He only just touched a few little items?

MR NDLOVU: As I've said, yes.  Only touched there and there.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht do you have any questions arising from questions put by the Panel?

MR DRAHT: Please Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu, after the first fight, before you went back to the shebeen, somebody shouted something and then you went back to the shebeen.  What did he shout?

INTERPRETER: Shout or shoot?

MR DRAHT: Shout.

MR NDLOVU: No-one shouted.  What happened, was that one had an opinion that we should go to Soksana's shebeen to see if there are not people there the shebeen.

MR DRAHT: Did he say you must go back to see if there were any people, or any ANC members or ANC people.

MR LAX: Sorry, that's a hell of a leading question Mr Draht.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's already said to us people.

MR LAX: I've let it go up until now.  You've got away with absolute murder on your leading questions, but, no the problem with leading a witness in that way is the probative value of that evidence is reduced substantially, but be it as it may ...(intervention)

MR DRAHT: Can I rephrase my question Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You said, well okay you can rephrase it.  I don't know how you're going to.

MR DRAHT: Did that person mention anything about other political parties when he shouted something?  Is that?

CHAIRPERSON: It's not going to really help in the long run.  It's been dragged out I think. ...(inaudible) the question.

MR NDLOVU: No, please repeat that question.

MR LAX: Perhaps I could help here Mr Draht.  Why, what were you going to the shebeen to look for people for?  What was the purpose of going there?

MR NDLOVU: We had gone there to the shebeen as I said, that somebody had this opinion of view that we should go and see if there were no people at the shebeen.  And we went there and we did not go inside.  As we were approaching the shebeen we saw people running away, coming out and running away.

MR LAX: Was the idea to attack the people who might be there?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, it could have been the one of attacking, because if we found them there we would have assaulted them.

MR DRAHT: Just a moment, if you can give me a few seconds Mr Chairperson.  One last question Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ndlovu can you please tell me why would you say that your actions was political motivated?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sir, may I just at this stage say sir that he had never said that his actions were political.

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't said that.  He's basically said he was a victim of circumstance really.  He was a member of the IFP, a situation arose, he found himself in it, and that's it.  I mean he was quite clear I think, he answered that in response to both questions by Mr Cachalia and Mr Lax.  It doesn't really come out of matters arising really, but you can ask him.  You're going to get the same answer.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu, were your actions politically motivated?

MR NDLOVU: With regards to this incident?

MR DRAHT: Yes.

MR NDLOVU: Yes, this was under this political umbrella.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen any further questions?

MR CLAASSEN: I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you none.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndlovu, that concludes your testimony, you may step down.
	We will now take the tea adjournment for approximately 20 minutes.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ELIAS MBATHA: AM NO 7028/97

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht?

MR DRAHT: Thank you Chairperson.  I call Mr Elias Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha do you have any objection to taking the oath?

ELIAS MBATHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Draht?

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mbatha you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: You are in prison at the moment?

ELIAS MBATHA: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: How long was your sentence?

ELIAS MBATHA: Fifteen years.

MR DRAHT: If I can refer the Committee to page 8 of the bundle.  Mr Mbatha, if you look at the middle of page 83, is that your signature?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mbatha can you read or write?

ELIAS MBATHA: No I cannot read, I only can write my name.

MR DRAHT: Who took this statement from you?

ELIAS MBATHA: Mr Msizi as well as this legal counsel, the one at the end.

MR DRAHT: Mr Claassen?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Did they read the statement back to you?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes they did.

MR DRAHT: When they took it?

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the question.

MR DRAHT: Did they read the statement back to you at the time when they took the statement?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, if I remember very well.

MR DRAHT: Did you tell the truth in Court?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I told lies.

MR DRAHT: Are you going to tell the truth now?

ELIAS MBATHA: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mbatha are you a member of a political party?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

MR DRAHT: What party?

ELIAS MBATHA: The IFP.

MR DRAHT: And at the time of the incident I suppose you were also a member of the party.  Is that right?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I was a member of the IFP.

MR DRAHT: What was your position in the party?

ELIAS MBATHA: I did not have a position, I was just a follower.

MR DRAHT: For what charges are you applying for amnesty for?  For what acts?

ELIAS MBATHA: I'm seeking amnesty for murder and being found in possession of an illegal firearm, attempted murder, and as well as illegal ammunition.

MR DRAHT: Before this incident what was the situation in Zevenfontein?

ELIAS MBATHA: The situation was not good.

MR DRAHT: Why do you say so?

ELIAS MBATHA: The situation was not good in terms of the relationship between the IFP and the ANC.

MR DRAHT: Up until this date of the incident, or prior to this date of the incident, was there any violence or fighting between the two groups?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, there was no fighting, but there was just a lot of talking.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mbatha in your statement you stated that Zevenfontein was a war zone at the time.  To which time do you refer, or did you refer?

ELIAS MBATHA: I'm referring to the day of the incident.

MR DRAHT: Did you receive any instructions to act in the manner you did that day?