Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

CHAIRPERSON: Right, it will be recorded that in the case of Paulus Moshlolo Mohape, there is, at the present time, no satisfactory evidence or information before us indicating that an application was ever lodged in compliance with the terms of the Act.  We are, however, prepared to hear the evidence of the applicant, together with all the other applicants today, to avoid unnecessary waste of time and perhaps duplication, but we hear it on the basis that this does not constitute an acceptance of the application that has now been put before us, which was completed on the 5th of August of this year, and that it is incumbent upon the applicant to investigate the matter further and to put information before us to show that there was a valid application entered into by him, this he may well have done in his affidavit, but furthermore that this application was thereafter lodged with the Amnesty Committee or the TRC in terms of the provisions of the Act.  And it is also, I think, necessary to put a time limit on this, that this must be done within one month of today.  If this is done, we will consider the application, if it is not done, we will dismiss the application on the basis that no proper application has been made in terms of the Act.
	Mr Mbandazayo, who appears for the applicant, has agreed that this would be the correct form to follow, and we accordingly propose to do so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may the applicant be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, the next stage, the Committee is constituted as it was yesterday, but would Mr Mbandazayo please put himself on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Lunga Mbandazayo, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants in this matter.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, you are again appearing for the victims, are you, and as the leader of the evidence?

MR STEENKAMP: That's correct, Mr Chairman, honourable members.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you stand please?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Bhani, you have an affidavit in front of you, which is also in front of the Committee, before the Committee, do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: That's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I won't go through, I will take it that the Committee have read the affidavit, but I'll go to paragraph 10 of the affidavit, unless the Committee has any point which it wants to raise before the paragraph preceding that one?

CHAIRPERSON: No, carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
"I left Umtata with Sibande to Welkom, where I met Abel Khotle, who took me to Wesselsbron and arranged accommodation for myself.  Abel Khotle was the regional commander of the area."
	Now, Mr Bhani, can you expunciate(?) and tell the Committee, where did you meet Khotle exactly in Welkom and where did he arrange your accommodation in Wesselsbron, for the benefit of the Committee?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I met Mr Khotle at G Hostel, where he used to stay.  We left for Wesselsbron at Sherman's house, who was working for the PAC, so I got accommodation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you still know the name of the chairman of the PAC in Wesselsbron, who gave you accommodation?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It was Shermi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sherne, was it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you come again, Mr Bhani?  Can you repeat the name?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It was Shermi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on, paragraph 10, Sibande, is that Daniso Sibande?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.  Yes, that's him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, when you were provided this accommodation by Shermi, the chairman of the PAC, did he know your mission in Wesselsbron?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: He wouldn't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Or did he know that who you are, did he know who you are?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, he knew my name, he knew exactly who I was, he knew that I was an APLA member.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you give the Committee the name that you used when you were in Wesselsbron?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: My name was Sipho at Wesselsbron.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Now, Mr Chairman, I will proceed to paragraph 11, if the Committee has no further questions.

MR MALAN: Sorry, we have questions.  The question was put whether he knew your name, Mr Bhani, whether he knew you, you said he knew your name, your name was Sipho, and he did know then that you were an APLA member.  Did he know anything about your rank or status?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: He didn't know anything about my rank, but he knew that I was an APLA member.

MR MALAN: Did he know that you had any mission?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: No, he didn't know about my mission.

MR MALAN: Why did he think that you came to Wesselsbron?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I think there's a problem.  Can you increase your volume?  We don't hear.  Can you hear?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: No, I don't hear the interpreter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: He does not hear the interpreter very well.

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I can hear now.

MR MALAN: The question is, what reason did you give Mr Khotle for your presence in Wesselsbron?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Mr Khotle was a regional commander, he knew everything that was happening in that area.  He knew exactly where I was to be deployed, and I would do area assessment and I would detect whatever, whenever it was necessary.

MR MALAN: Did he know in advance of your presence, that you would be coming to Wesselsbron, is that what you're telling us?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Whom are you talking about?

MR MALAN: I'm talking about Mr Khotle.

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As a regional commander, when I moved from Umtata, I didn't even know that I was going to Wesselsbron, but he knew that he's the one who would receive me and deploy me somewhere.

MR MALAN: Who took you to Wesselsbron then, if you didn't know that you were going there?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Mr Khotle, as a regional commander, is the one who received me there, he knew where he was going to deploy me, I didn't even know that I was going to Wesselsbron, but he is the one who deployed me there at Wesselsbron.

MR MALAN: Mr Mbandazayo, I hope you have my question, I'm not sure whether the applicant understands the question.  If you could please lead him on why did he go to Wesselsbron, on whose instructions, how did he land there if he didn't know he was going to Wesselsbron?

CHAIRPERSON: Khotle took him there.

MR MALAN: No, no, Sibande took him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sibande took him to Welkom, where he met Khotle.

MR MALAN: Thank you, sorry then it's my misunderstanding, you should have helped me earlier then, Chair.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now we'll proceed, Mr Chairman, then to paragraph 11
"I made reconnaissance of the area, and after I identified the target, I gave a report to the regional commander for him to seek approval from the Director of Operations, or for him to give an order for the execution of the operation."
	Now, just before I complete the paragraph, can you be able to give the Committee a picture, how did you do your reconnaissance of the target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I inspected the place.  When I was inspecting the place, I realised that there was, they close at about 9:00 in the evening, there are people who normally buy there who were members of AWB and including SAP, that's how I identified this place as a target, then I gave the report to the regional commander that I have identified a target.  Therefore, I wanted him to approve, to go to the Director of Operations to approve.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me how you identified shoppers as members of the AWB?