Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MR SARDIWALLA: When you had meetings with the IFP was he normally present?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, he used to be present in IFP meetings.

MR SARDIWALLA: And did he partake in the decision-making process at such meetings?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I wouldn't say yes or no, I think it will be better to address this question to himself, not to me.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like you to explain this to us because you were the Chairperson of the organisation in the area.  In your knowledge was he a prominent member in your organisation?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, he was a prominent member.

CHAIRPERSON: If so, as an organisation, if you were taking a decision or if you were making decisions, was he present in those meetings?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, usually he will listen.  There will be others who will come with ideas and who will take decisions, not him.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say he was a prominent member, why so, what was his involvement?

BERNARD MKHIZE: It is easy to identify someone who likes, or who believes in an organisation, not because he held a certain position, but he was for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.  Evidence has been led by the applicant that there was a confrontation between the ANC and the IFP on the 26th February 1993.  Can you -  do you agree or do you not agree?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I think in 1993 the attack was when the children were killed and injured.  I don't know how to say about attacks but all that I know is that people were coming from outside attacking us in our area.

ADV DE JAGER: I think he's go trouble with the date.  I don't think he really has trouble with an event round about that time.

MR SARDIWALLA: So can we accept that shortly prior to this incident when the children were killed, there was a confrontation between the ANC and the IFP members in the area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Are we still talking about 1993 or are we talking about another year, or are we talking about 1989?

MR SARDIWALLA: You don't seem to recollect dates so I'm moving away from dates.  I'm saying shortly before, weeks before, or a week before, or a week or two before this incident when the children died, there was a major confrontation between the IFP members and the ANC members.

BERNARD MKHIZE: I do remember that houses were attacked and burned down in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: And that they insulted Mr Sebia.

BERNARD MKHIZE: Which one, which Sebia?

ADV DE JAGER: You told us they were swearing there and that they entered the house of Mr Sebia, I'm only asking you whether that happened shortly before the children were killed?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, it is the very same incident I was referring to that I identified them as ANC comrades because they were swearing at us.

MR SARDIWALLA: So the situation was very volatile after that incident between the ANC and the IFP?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I will say the situation was bad for us who were inside the area, because the only people who were attacking were the people who came from outside, in other words the ANC were the ones who were coming to attack us.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SARDIWALLA

CHAIRPERSON: When you were attacked at that time, you didn't take any steps in order to protect yourself?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, we used to protect ourselves, but this was after our houses were burned down.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't take steps in order to counter attack?

BERNARD MKHIZE: We didn't have a specific area to attack them, because they were from another chief, from eNkanyezini, that's where they fled to.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have stopped you entering eNkanyezini area and attack if you knew that the people who were attacking you were from there and you knew them?

BERNARD MKHIZE: It wasn't easy for us to do that.  We knew that they will say when they are swearing, therefore we will know who were involved in this attack, but it wasn't easy for us to counter attack them.

MR MALAN: You were asked under cross-examination about your knowing or not of Mr Makeke, do you know what vehicle he drove?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I do know.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Isuzu, a white Isuzu.

MR MALAN: Did you know Mr Ngobane, the person who drove the vehicle that was attacked the day the children were killed?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR MALAN: Was he related to you?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, we are not related but we are neighbours, we are staying in one area.

MR MALAN: Did you lose children in that incident?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I lost children.

MR MALAN: How old were your children?

BERNARD MKHIZE: The truth is they are my sister's kids, but they were staying with me.  I was their guardian.  I know one was 19 years old, the other one was 12 years and the other one was 9 years.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The white Isuzu belonging to Makeke, did it have a canopy?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, but sometimes he will remove it and sometimes he will put it back.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was Makeke staying?

BERNARD MKHIZE: At Mboyi area.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you have anything to re-examine him on Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: That's correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mkhize for coming here in front to give us your evidence.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, who is your next witness?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair it's Bongane Kuala.

BONGANE KUALA: (sworn states)

MS THABETHE: Can I proceed Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Mr Kuala, you were one of the people who were in the van that was attacked on the 2nd of March 1993, is that correct?

BONGANE KUALA: That's correct.

MS THABETHE: Can you briefly tell the Committee members as to what happened that day?

BONGANE KUALA: Yes.  We were going to school.  It was early in the morning.  We were in a cream-white bakkie with a white canopy.  The driver was a certain guy from the Ngobane family.  On our way we were ambushed, this was before we arrived in school.  They shot at the car.  Some kids alighted the car and they were shot outside the car.  After that, after they had shot at us, it became quiet and I had realised that my sister had passed away and three boys from the Mkhize family, they are my aunt's children, they were injured.  After it was quiet I alighted the car.  I could see that they were injured.  When it became quiet that's when I decided to check on them.  As I was checking on them, trying to chat with them, I saw Qeda Zulu approaching me.  Since he was someone I knew, I requested him not to shoot me.  He said he wouldn't let me go because he said I was going to tell the police.  I pleaded with him.  I said to him I was trying to save my sister.  He said he won't leave me because I will tell the police and then he shot at me.

MS THABETHE: When you were attacked, did you see anybody else besides Qeda?

BONGANE KUALA: Others I could not see because they had balaclavas, but I saw him, because we even talked.

MS THABETHE: Did you belong to any political organisation at that time, in 1993?

BONGANE KUALA: No, I was still at school.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

ADV DE JAGER: How old are you now?

BONGANE KUALA: 19.

ADV DE JAGER: So at that stage you were round about 13?

BONGANE KUALA: Yes, I was 13 to turn 14.

CHAIRPERSON: You state that you could not recognise the others because they were wearing balaclavas.  Was Qeda not
wearing a balaclava?

BONGANE KUALA: He had a balaclava, but then he had removed the front part of it.  It was in his head only, that's how I recognised him and that's when I started talking to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please slow down because you are too fast and the interpreters cannot cope with you?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.