Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: No, it's Mr Max Jafta who says you asked as to who was firing the shot and you were in front of the shop, right in front of the door where Boy was.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He is mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: And that is also confirmed by Boy who says that after he was taken out - I mean after he had opened and hit by Mfaswe you were also there?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They are both mistaken because I did not even be at that place next to the door of the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: By the way, who remained next to the motor vehicles?

CHAIRPERSON: Which motor vehicles, the police?

MR MGIDLANA: The police motor vehicles.  Who was the man that was standing across the road next to your motor vehicles?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was the teacher that we had arrested, together Sergeant Tshota, those were the people that we left behind the cars.

MR MGIDLANA: Gumengu is the person who led boy to the place where he said - that is Boy said, this K K was sleeping, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I didn't understand the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mgidlana, just for - who is K K?

MR MGIDLANA: K K is a person that they were looking for.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay just if you could just ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: Koli Khaya.

CHAIRPERSON: Just if you could repeat the question please?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes.  The question is, is it correct that it was Constable Gumengu who accompanied boy to the room where Boy had said it's Khaya or K K that we were looking for was sleeping?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: K K came and appeared in front of me and I told him to lift up his hands and he produced an AK-47 and it directed just above my head but he did not shoot directly at me and then he left for the forest.  It's not Gumengu who actually approached him.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The question was and it's just being put to you for your comment whether you dispute it, whether you can't remember, whether you disagree or whether you agree that Gumengu, Constable Gumengu accompanied Boy to the room where K K was sleeping.  Do you know anything about that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I know nothing about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Because one would assume that that would have been before you saw K K because I mean he couldn't be sleeping and holding and shooting the gun at the same time?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I know nothing about that.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that there were two policemen standing in front of the rooms where K K was sleeping.  Are you then saying you were one of those two policemen?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: What happened before the shooting, did K K just open the door?  What did happen?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: When we got there the door was ajar, open.  We put our firearms down and I lit a cigarette.  When I was still smoking K K appeared.  We instructed him to lift up his hands in the air.  He was at the distance of the guy with a camera.  When he lifted up his hands he had an AK-47.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about four paces, just for the record, the distance indicated.

MR MGIDLANA: And so he started shooting?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He started shooting.  The AK-47 was on automatic.  He walked down the stairs and came to a short distance where this white wire is.  Just in front of us he lifted up the barrel and then he shot just above our heads and then he nodded or shook his head and then he left for the forest.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it not correct that K K knocked as he was inside the door, he knocked and also said by himself come in and it was then that you started to be aware that there must be somebody in this house which was in this room, which was close by then?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is not true.

MR MGIDLANA: And when he opened the door he started shooting and you ran away.  If it is as you say you are one of those people, which is disputed of course?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: You wouldn't get a chance to run away in that situation therefore I dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who were you with when the shooting took place?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was with Jani.

MR MGIDLANA: And Boy Jafta was led to this room after K K had already fired shots and he had already escaped.  It's then that he led Constable Gumengu to this room leaving you with some others next to the shop.  You dispute that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I disagree with it because I was never next to the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: You say in your affidavit that the soldiers who came there were under the command of Lieutenant Mandela, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Are these the soldiers that had accompanied you to Makubela's place?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Isn't it correct that they had left you and were called after this shooting at the Jafta's shop?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They were called just after the shooting in the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: The person commanding those soldiers - in your statement to the TRC you say you were commanded by Mr Ronray Daly.  Were you mistaken?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: If you read that statement correctly Ray Daly came with his own soldiers.

MR MGIDLANA: So there were two sets of soldiers over there?  It was this unit of Mandela and the unit of Ronray Daly, is that what you are saying?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Ray Daly came afterwards.

MR MGIDLANA: When you say afterwards, what do you mean?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I don't know who called him but there were soldiers from Butterworth and thereafter we saw the other helicopters coming from Umtata.

MR MGIDLANA: And Ronray Daly, is it the man that was carrying the radio system of the soldiers and who was in civilian clothing, who came in a helicopter?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Ronray Daly was a commander of the soldiers.
You can say he was a commander because he was in charge of some soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: The question asked, Mr Siqhola, was he - first of all, was he in civilian clothes, not in uniform?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not take note of that but I know for sure that he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the second leg of Mr Mgidlana's question was, was he carrying any radio equipment?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: How many persons were dropped by this helicopter, do you recall?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not count them.

MR MGIDLANA: It was my instructions that only one person was dropped by this helicopter and it was a person who was carrying radio equipment and was in civilian clothing?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was not one person.

MR MGIDLANA: So you can't recall as to how many there were but it was not one person who was dropped by this helicopter?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: And I'm also instructed that this is the person who actually took over the command of the operation from the side of the soldiers?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I cannot dispute that.

MR MGIDLANA: And if that be the person then it should then be that person was in civilian clothing?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It might happen that there was that person in civilian clothing, I cannot dispute that.  I was not focusing on that helicopter.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mgidlana.  Did you know Reed Daly?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say you saw him there you recognised him to be Reed Daly?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct, I recognised him right away.

MR LAX: Well if you recognised him, wasn't he the person who came out of the helicopter as has been put to you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was not only one person who alighted from that helicopter.

MR LAX: Well did he get out of the helicopter, Reed Daly?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes he got out of the helicopter and I saw him.

MR LAX: And was he wearing civilian clothes?