Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-30

MS PATEL: Is the reason that you were shocked that you'd realised that this group had gone beyond the supposed mandate of the community?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Is that also the reason that you didn't participate in the attack on Mr Pretorius and you chose rather to leave or to run away because you realised that the rest of the group is now not acting in accordance with the mandate of the community?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Do you bear any knowledge of the window of Mr Senti that was broken?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I do not have any idea.

MS PATEL: Okay.  I'm sorry, I can't recall whether you've said this but did you state that you were present when Mr Pretorius' farm lines were cut?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I did not mention anything like that.

MS PATEL: Okay.  So you know nothing about Mr Pretorius' farm lines being cut, do I understand you correctly?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes I cannot dispute that, I cannot say it was not cut or yes it was.

MS PATEL: I want to put it to you, Sir, as it was in fact found by the trial court that you and the rest of your applicants did not act out of political motive?  What is your comment.

RHANDILE BHAYI: I dispute that.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.
	Mr Bhayi, were you aware that members of your group were armed when you went on these escapades?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: With firearms, with guns?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that your group didn't know exactly where the farmhouses in question here were situated when you set out to these farms?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I do not know about that but by the look of things no one knew where those houses were situated that is why we had to enquire.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you indicated that you did not expect these farmers simply to leave their farms because your group was asking them or telling them to leave and that your intention really was to intimidate them.  Now did you understand that there was a possibility that your comrades would use those firearms that they had with them in these incidents?

RHANDILE BHAYI: That is why I say I got very worried at Mr Joe Senti's house when he was shot at because I did not expect that to happen, that was not preplanned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes the shooting at Senti's house you say was not preplanned and the shooting at the farmer's house, did you expect that there was a possibility that there could be shooting at the farmer's house?  Like in the case of Hansel and so on?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I would like to say if you are about to take an action you are expecting the results we can get trouble or problems when we reached the place.  I anticipated that.

CHAIRPERSON: And that as part of that trouble there can be shooting?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't quite expect that at the worker's house?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct because we were not looking for him we were looking for a white man.

CHAIRPERSON: You were sixteen years old at the time.  Your own position in this group, were you just one of the people that were sort of tagging along or did you assume any prominent role or anything like that?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I'd like to say myself, the role that I was playing even in the community whenever I see people toyi toying, I used to go there and join the toyi toyi because I used to love it and even when they were going to these places no one pulled me along but I just said it to join them.

CHAIRPERSON: Join the toyi toyi or join the action but you wouldn't start it yourself?  Would that be correct or what?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct because I was a bit childish at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: This group that was on the way to attack Mr Hansel's house, where did you join them, where did you meet them?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I met with these people on the way towards that place.

ADV SANDI: When you joined them did you know where they were going to?

RHANDILE BHAYI: No I did not know but when the decision was taken at a meeting that was held at the playground I was present.

ADV SANDI: At the soccer playground was the name of Mr Hansel mentioned, did someone specifically say we must go and attack Mr Hansel?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I did not hear that unfortunately.

ADV SANDI: Where did you think they were going?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I did not ask or enquire, I did not even think about the destination, that I just joined them.]

ADV SANDI: When they went to attack the house of Mr Cobus, were you part of the group from the time the decision was taken that we must go and attack Mr Cobus?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I was not there when the decision was taken.

ADV SANDI: How did it come about that you became part of that group?

RHANDILE BHAYI: At the time when we were going to Mr Cobus' place I was from the roadblock and I met them on the way and I just joined them.

ADV SANDI: And when they went to the place of Mr Pretorius how did it come about that you became a part of that group?

RHANDILE BHAYI: When we were going to Mr Pretorius.  I met them at the roadblock, they were passing and I was at the roadblock and I joined them because the way to that place goes via the roadblock.

ADV SANDI: Whilst you were at Mr Hansel's place did you hear anyone demanding money from Mr Hansel?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I did not hear anyone mentioning anything about money.

ADV SANDI: If someone had made such a demand from Mr Hansel would you have heard him?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I cannot say that it was or I could have heard that but I did not hear anything like that.

ADV SANDI: Would you deny that someone demanded money from Mr Hansel?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I cannot deny that but I did not hear anything about money.

ADV SANDI: If one of the members of your group took anything at the house of Mr Hansel, Mr Cobus or Mr Pretorius, would you have seen that, anyone taking something other than firearms and ammunition, would you have seen such a thing happening?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I cannot say that I would have seen that because I was also busy.

ADV SANDI: Was it a matter of concern to you that none of the members of your group should take anything other than weapons and ammunition from such places?

RHANDILE BHAYI: What I know is this, if you are about to do something at a place, if whatever, if something is not a part of your mandate you are not supposed to do it, that's why I did not think that people would decide to take something else that was not listed.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear any rumours after the attacks had been carried out, that is after you went to Mr Hansel, Mr Cobus and Mr Pretorius farm, did you hear anything that one of the members of your group had taken anything other than firearms and ammunition.  Was there any such talk after the raid of such farms?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I am sure that I did not hear anything like that, I only heard that during the trial when I heard that people acted against the mandate by taking some of the things that were not mentioned.  Such things are against our organisation.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Bhayi.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bhayi, when were you arrested?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I was arrested in 1990 but I cannot remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it long after the final attack on the farm of Mr Pretorius that you were involved in?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.  Let me rectify something, I was arrested after all these incidents that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you arrested alone?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I was arrested with my cousin's brother in Middledrift.

CHAIRPERSON: But he wasn't charged, he wasn't with you in this case or was he?

RHANDILE BHAYI: You mean in this case?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, the one that you and the other applicants or most of the applicants were involved in, when you were seven?

RHANDILE BHAYI: My cousin's brother was present, I know that he was present.