Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: They brought out a book which stipulated the principles.  It was for freedom, a free "volk" regarding the three things, Northern Natal, Free State and Transvaal, that would be the republics for which we laid claim.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the first one?

MR LE ROUX: It was Northern Natal, Free State and then Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: During ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was that irrespective of apartheid?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, apartheid at that stage or the AWB did not have a lot to do with apartheid and I could not reconcile myself with that.  I was against the NP government of the day.

MS VAN DER WALT: May I continue Mr Chairperson?
	During 1990 you attended a meeting of the CP where Andries Treurnicht addressed this meeting?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct.  At the meeting it was discussed, it was the beginning of the third liberation struggle and it would start at that stage, which was in 1990.

MS VAN DER WALT: Against whom was this liberation struggle?

MR LE ROUX: It was against anyone who would interfere with our ability to rule ourselves and it would not give this to us.

MS VAN DER WALT: During March 1993 there was a mobilisation campaign of the CP ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just stop a moment please.
	Could the people please turn their instruments off or just down a bit because it seems as if the volume is on maximum as we can hear it hear.  Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: This mobilisation campaign which started in March 1993, this is now of the CP, against whom did you have to mobilise?  What was the feeling of the CP during that time towards the ANC/SACP Alliance?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage Mr Chairperson, the CP realised that the National Party is selling us out.  Against the ANC they realised that it was a communist government that would be established and they wanted to stop this.

CHAIRPERSON: What would the National Party sell out?

MR LE ROUX: The National Party would give the government over or the country over to a communist government.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you attend any meetings of the AWB was addressed by the leader Eugene Terreblanche or any of the Staff Generals of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I attended various meetings Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the AWB's attitude regarding the unbanning of the ANC/SACP?

MR LE ROUX: My view was that the AWB was completely opposed to this.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the AWB's opinion regarding the election that would take place in the beginning of 1994?

MR LE ROUX: My view was that the AWB wanted to stop this completely, they wanted to put a spoke in the wheel.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did Eugene Terreblanche say from the stage regarding the election that would take place?

MR LE ROUX: At various opportunities he said that if the ANC take over he will start shooting and plant bombs, that was one of the things he said.  He also said that we will stop this thing with all the powers we have.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did he say regarding the weapons that had to be obtained for this campaign which began?

MR LE ROUX: If we did not have weapons we had to steal weapons if necessary.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did Eugene Terreblanche ever from the stage make you aware or said to you that he would negotiate at any stage or what was his attitude?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it that his attitude was that no negotiations would take place.

MS VAN DER WALT: During December 1993, you went through a camp in order to qualify for the Ystergarde?

MR LE ROUX: That is true, it was a week long camp.  In the Ystergarde we usually go through a few weekend camps in order to qualify for the week camp.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Ystergarde, can you explain or tell the Committee what the Ystergarde is?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please spell that word?

MS VAN DER WALT: Y-S-T-E-R-G-A-R-D-E.

MR LE ROUX: The Ystergarde had to goal or wanted to protect the leaders of the AWB and execute certain operations which would be necessary in order to gain power for the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about certain operations, what do you mean by that?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, it could have been anything, it was a wide spectrum.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Ystergarde as well as, for example ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Such as what?

MR LE ROUX: Anything that was necessary.  For example to stop an election or to realise the goals of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, the "Yestergarde", were they trained to kill?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, definitely so.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in these courses were you taught to, in certain situations if you wanted to reach a goal, to kill in order to reach them?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.  We were trained with house penetration, leader protection, self protection, self ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: This "Yestergarde", were they the elite section of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that course which you succeeded in, was that in Klokkelaan?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: One of the State witnesses, Mr Koekemoer, did you meet him during that course?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was with Koekemoer.  He was the chief State witness.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was he a member of the Ystergarde?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the 15th of December 1993 you attended the Day of the Vow festivities at the Voortrekker Monument?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what were the speeches about of the leaders of the AWB?  What was conveyed to you?

MR LE ROUX: It was told or it was said to me or conveyed to me that we must stop this election and that our liberation, we must fight for our liberation.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about stop, how must this happen, did you have to go over to war or what should you do?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it as war.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say you understood it, was it ever announced, was it ever said by the Staff Generals or Eugene Terreblanche, that you are going to go into a war?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, at various meetings before that and afterwards they also mentioned that.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that time, at the end of 1993 there was a meeting held in Pretoria's Hall which was addressed by Constand Viljoen, were you present there?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was said or discussed at this meeting?

MR LE ROUX: They discussed at that stage that the Volkstaat wanted to take part in the election but the people in the meeting were opposed to the election and they campaigned at that meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Why, why were they opposed to the election?

MR LE ROUX: Most of the people at that meeting were from the right-wing and they were against the transfer of power to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to understand that, was that not in the light of the fact that they could not get a Volkstaat?  What would their position be if the AWB got the Volkstaat in the Transvaal and Free State and Northern Natal?  Would they still have been opposed against the general election?

MR LE ROUX: No, in that regard they wouldn't have been.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you aware of the fact that General Constand Viljoen ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Mr le Roux, can you explain, is it correct that General Viljoen still wanted to negotiate and on that basis wanted to continue but that the AWB did not want to negotiate, if I understand you evidence correctly?

MR LE ROUX: General Viljoen, the way I understood him at that stage, was busy with two things.  Firstly he was busy with the negotiation process and the preparation for a revolution.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just explain to the Honourable Committee what you mean when you say that there was a preparation for a revolution?

MR LE ROUX: There was for example organisations established like the Boere Crisis Organisation who from the farms and local communities they had to protect them and in that regard General Viljoen was the Chairperson of these meetings.  That was his involvement in that.