Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

MR BOOYENS: Okay, but they couldn't have made use of your services also because they were afraid of being seen there because they were at the scene?

DIRK COETZEE: They didn't make use of my service, the reason only they can explain Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you were stationed for how long at Oshoek border post?

DIRK COETZEE: From January 1977 till the first week in January 1980, if my memory serves me right.

MR BOOYENS: In other words about three and a half years?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you testified yesterday that Roy Otto was stationed there for a period of about eight years - at Lebomba.

DIRK COETZEE: At Lebomba border post I believe, I don't know, I haven't got firsthand knowledge of that.

MR BOOYENS: The security police in those days was a rather small community, not so?

DIRK COETZEE: It was Mr Chairman, it always was a small community.

MR BOOYENS: Did you ever visit Lebomba border post Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: I was there once at the border post - at the security branch offices at the border post when I reported to Archie Flemmington with the Kondile murder Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Well just to jump back quickly and with Peter and Vuzi?

DIRK COETZEE: With Peter and Vuzi, they've met us at the junction and we went to the river very, very nearby to the main road Mr Chairman.  I can't remember whether Paul or Koos Vermeulen that was with me at the time, went to call Major Flemmington.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, I just want - and I please want to get absolute clarity, who was there at the scene at the time Mr Kondile was murdered and his body was buried?

MR BOOYENS: I will tell you who I know was there, then you needn't repeat that.  According to your evidence that was basically the three P.E. men - the three applicants, yourself, Paul van Dyk, Archie Flemmington, two of Flemmington's men, one of whom did the shooting and the deceased of course.   I count nine, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: Major Flemmington included, That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Nine or ten, but is that the sum total of the people that were there?

DIRK COETZEE: The names you've mentioned, That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, would you please turn to page 116.  This is an extract of your amnesty application heard in Durban on the 7th of November 1996, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: I accept it Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Just line about 25: "and the two Ermelo men" - that passage

DIRK COETZEE: The full ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: It's about line 25
"And the two Ermelo men each grabbed a hand and a foot

DIRK COETZEE: Must I read that who sentence?
"The four junior non-commissioned officers, Paul van Dyk, Sergeant Young from Colonel Nick van Rensburg's branch and the two Ermelo men"
It wasn't the Ermelo men, it was Major Archie Flemmington's men.
"each grabbed a hand and a foot"
...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Coetzee, that's all I'm interested in really.  You say that's a mistake, there were no people from Ermelo?

DIRK COETZEE: It's clearly indicated if the record is read in context in the Harms Commission, the Loots and Neethling trial and this record reads in context you can see it was again a slip of the tongue Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

DIRK COETZEE: Which is normal and happens in every day life even in this Commission.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, is it correct that you have admitted that you have - and I'm not going to repeat them, but yesterday during cross-examination and once again this morning, you have made - admitted that there are several mistakes in your papers and the times that you made evidence and so on.  Like you say, it's normal.

DIRK COETZEE: It's insignificant ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just say that there are several mistakes, that's the ...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: There are, That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: For example, one of the other mistakes is that you also ascertained later on that the description of the colour of the Stanza that you have given us is wrong.

DIRK COETZEE: I said I think it was light green or light yellow and it was proved to be light yellow.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  How did that happen Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: I wasn't sure of the colour and it was later explained in documents that it was a yellow colour.  I don't know in which documents Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Could it be in fact that you were right that the Stanza you saw was light blue or light green?

DIRK COETZEE: No, no, I wasn't sure of the colour, it comes out clearly Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And the first - did I understand you to say that the first time when in fact it was mentioned that the Stanza was the car which was with Mr Kondile, was that on that very same day when you saw it or at a later time? - we just want to make sure of that.

DIRK COETZEE: It belonged to the detainee what was mentioned if I can recollect correctly, the night when we arrived at Jeffrey's Bay Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Before you saw the detainee?

DIRK COETZEE: On our way to the detainee, That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, so Mr van Rensburg, while you were still on your way to the detainee - before you have seen him, mentioned to you that that specific car belonged to a detainee?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know why he mentioned it Mr Coetzee?  How did it happen?

DIRK COETZEE: Well, it was strange that he opened the garage door adjacent or very near the second or third one from the garage where - police garage where we parked the Audi in and closed the door, that he opened it, had a look at it and closed it again Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So okay, I just want to - because I didn't understand your evidence so clearly, so these were separate garages? - closed garages, the Audi was parked in one of them?

DIRK COETZEE: The Audi was parked in one and the Datsun in one of the others, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So you couldn't see the Datsun when you parked the Audi?

DIRK COETZEE: If I remember correctly, Jan Raath parked the Audi and we came afterwards Mr Chairman - after he entered the police yard Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And then for some or other reason Nick van Rensburg walked with you to the garage where the Stanza was parked, opened the door, took a look and closed the door again?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: He didn't - that's rather peculiar behaviour wasn't it?  There was no specific reason that I can think of why he would want to look at the car.  Do you think he wanted show you the car?

DIRK COETZEE: No, maybe - only he can say, I can just guess that he wanted to make sure that the car is still there Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, I see.  But he didn't pass any comment as to express surprise whether the car was there or not there or gave any explanation for this peculiar behaviour of his?

DIRK COETZEE: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember how many lock-up - how many garages there are?

DIRK COETZEE: No, there's was quite a few of them, I can't remember how many Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee obviously, if the Audi - not the Audi, if the Stanza was never entered into the police books - the police register in Bloemfontein, this whole elaborate charade of ostensibly releasing Mr Kondile and then kidnapping him and so would have been completely unnecessary, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: I don't understand the question, can you ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: Well, as I understand you, the only reason why Mr Kondile was ostensibly released was so that they could get the motor car from Bloemfontein?

DIRK COETZEE: That is what was ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: That was what was explained to you?

DIRK COETZEE: That's what was said by their legal representative Mr Maritz, in the Harms Commission Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And that's the only person that ever said it, Nick van Rensburg never said it?