Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADV PRIOR: I am also going to suggest to you that in fact is the case, that you shot several rounds into his head, the situation couldn't have been that traumatic for you as you have let us believe.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Why not Mr Chairman?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSLEE

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR VISSER: None thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

ADV SIGODI: Mr Rosslee, when Mr Bhila was abducted from his home, he was taken because he was going to be taken out of the country and with a view, I mean the askaris, the story is that the askaris told him that he was going to be taken out of the country for his own safety and for further training.
	Did he have any clothing with him when he was at the shooting range?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall if he had any additional clothing with him Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: So you wouldn't know what happened to whatever parcels he may have had?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no idea Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: The brown bag that was put on his head, when he was taken to the scene of the killing, do you know where it came from?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I didn't know it was a brown bag.

ADV SIGODI: The packet or whatever it was that was put on him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no idea where that bag came from.

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that you and Mr Wasserman, you discussed this matter and in your own words you said between the two of us we tried to put the pieces together.  The problem I am having with that is, is what you are telling a reconstruction or is it what actually happened and how much really can we put to what you are telling us today?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: What I am telling here today is as I recall the events to the best of my knowledge.

ADV SIGODI: With the assistance of Mr Wasserman and the two of you trying to put the pieces together?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I disagree with that Mr Chairman, because I still maintain, we still have differences.  For instance on the flat tyre, I maintain it was on the way back from the scene, other witnesses maintain it was on the way to the scene.
	I maintain there was a braai, they maintain there wasn't a braai.

ADV SIGODI: Just on that score, after you had done this, on your way back, did you  discuss this incident with the other members in the motor vehicle?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: To my recollection, we didn't speak about it.

ADV SIGODI: What were you talking about?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no idea.

ADV SIGODI: Is it normal for people to commit such an act and not to talk about it afterwards, even when the person that they have killed is no longer there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I wouldn't know what normal is in those circumstances Mr Chairman, but I don't recall if we spoke, and if we did, what we spoke about.

ADV SIGODI: And afterwards, did you perhaps read in the newspapers or hear that somebody had been shot and his body was thrown over a cliff?  Did anything like that concerning this incident, come up in the newspapers?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I heard nothing about it until the Attorney General's Investigation Team contacted me.

ADV SIGODI: Why did they contact you, how did they link you to that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My understanding was that as I said, they had had a statement from Mr Bosch and they traced me, and that was it.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, can you recall the date that you were called to Captain Taylor, or was he Major Taylor then, to his office when you and McCarter discussed with him, and he told you about the acquittal?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I cannot remember the date Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Can you remember the date when Bhila was killed?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: From the statements, I recall the date from the statements and consultation, yes.

MR MALAN: What date do you have as your date?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Let me just see here.  If I remember correctly it was the 22nd or something, I can't find it here now.

MR MALAN: The 22nd of February 1996?

CHAIRPERSON: No, 1986.

MR MALAN: Sorry, 1986 did I say 1996.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: 1987.

MR MALAN: 1987, 1987.  Can you recall anything more that was told you by Taylor when he called you into his office as to why Bhila and the other were acquitted?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I can't remember why they were, or if we were told why they were acquitted, the reason why they were acquitted Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: He simply said they were acquitted and what did he say more about their activities?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that they were scared of Mr Bhila and the other person, of carrying on with terrorist activities in the Port Natal area.

MR MALAN: So they had no evidence that they were already carrying on, they were just fearful of them?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot recall if they already had evidence, or if it was - my understanding as I recall now, was that they were going to continue with the activities.

MR MALAN: In other words you understood it at the time that the Court acquitted them incorrectly, and they had to be dealt with?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: To stop their future activities, yes.

MR MALAN: For the sake of justice and prevention of whatever?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is right.

MR MALAN: The Court should have found them guilty in other words?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot speculate on that, I just know that they were acquitted.

MR MALAN: Okay.  Now, can you remember the date of that discussion?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No.  No Mr chairman.

MR MALAN: If I put it to you that the acquittal in terms of the judgement of what is the Judge's name, Thirion, that the acquittal after the closure of the State's case was on the 18th of February, that would have been somewhere during the day, can you remember the time of day that that discussion took place in Taylor's office?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No clue Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Something tells me it was somewhere in the morning, by some evidence, would that be possible?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is possible, I don't know.

MR MALAN: But it wasn't on the same day, it was probably at least, earlier on the next day, on the 19th?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know.

MR MALAN: Or later, but it must have been before the 21?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: In all likelihood, yes.

MR MALAN: So what I am looking at is, for some reason Taylor made an immediate decision after the acquittal that he had to be removed.
	There was no opportunity for Bhila or Nxiweni to prove themselves one way or another?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine Mr Chairman.  I didn't have a history on Mr Bhila or the other person.

MR MALAN: But you can't recall that he mentioned to you when they were acquitted?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, off hand I can't remember that at all.

MR MALAN: And according to evidence again, it seems as if they had to be, the address had to be found out, in other words Bhila be located, lured away and taken out, assassinated?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And all of that from the discussion to the killing of Bhila, took probably from the morning of the 19th, to the 22nd, that is over a period of three to four days, most?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine so, yes.

MR MALAN: So that also means that Taylor must have followed, he must have  been there or had someone there who reported to them.  He probably would have had knowledge already because no evidence were led and that was the reason for the acquittal, that they would have been acquitted after the closure of the State's case?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You see, why I am asking this is you went down on the 10th and you returned on the 27th, that is five days after the killing.  You can't remember any discussion about this high profile case at that time, where this Unit had a specific interest?