Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did Chris Langa know that the operation you want to do you were doing for the purposes of PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes he did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And he's the one who took you to non-members either to ANC nor to PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Malefane, didn't you find it funny that you were introduced to people who were non-members of PAC for a PAC operation.  Didn't you find that dangerous?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That did not surprise me because I trusted Chris Langa, we grew up together, he knew all my activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, would this be a convenient time for the adjournment?  I see it's now past 11 o'clock, we'll have a short tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson can I just be afforded one minutes to look at my notes quickly?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (continues) Mr Malefane, just one last question on the leadership of PAC and perhaps APLA in particular.  Do you know a person by the code name of Happy?  Happy.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: (s.u.o.)  No sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know a person by the code name of Oumajas?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know a person called Letlape Mpashlele?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  What was his position in the leadership of PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was a high commander or he is a high commander.  I am talking under correction, you have asked me this question previously regarding his position.  I do know him but it's just that I cannot recall precisely what his actual position is.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Have you met him before?  Yes I have sir.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I have sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  If I tell you that he was actually the person in charge of units, repossessing units, what would you say?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I would agree with you on that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good, did you ever have any talk with him about this operation of the high commander of such operations?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No, but regarding this operation I never got in contact with him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandanzayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
ADV. BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
	When you were in prison for the first repossession exercise which you mentioned later on, did you maintain any contact with the PAC in Lesotho or within the country at all?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I had contact.
ADV. BOSMAN: With whom did you have this contact?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was Mofokeng.
ADV. BOSMAN: Now who was Mofokeng?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was a PAC member.
ADV. BOSMAN: And what was the nature of the contact, what information did you exchange?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He is the one who persuaded me to escape from prison and should I manage, I should leave for Lesotho.
ADV. BOSMAN: Once or twice you made mention of people knowing about your activities and you telling people about your activities.  You testified that Mabena, when you spoke to him at the welcome party, that he knew of your activities.  What were these activities that he knew about?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: The assistance that I gave the youth to leave the country and also financial assistance when they needed.
ADV. BOSMAN: How many times did you render financial assistance and where did the money come from?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My grandfather was a taxi owner and therefore he assisted me.  It was finance that we got from his taxi business.
ADV. BOSMAN: So it was never finance coming from any repossession activities?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No.
ADV. BOSMAN: Could you just look at your statement on page 17 of the bundle.  This was part of a statement or confession made to Lieutenant Radley.  About the middle of the page and you are there referring to Eric Ntani.  It reads
"Eric was daar"  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, do the interpreters need this to be read in Afrikaans or in English?

INTERPRETER: We prefer it to be read in English please.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, so Advocate Bosman will render her own interpretation into English for purposes of translation into Sesotho.
ADV. BOSMAN:	"Eric was there, he then told me that I must go with him to a mine at Stilfontein.  Eric was selling clothes there.  He also said that the truck from Fidelity Guards would bring money to the mine."
Do you have that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes ma'am.
ADV. BOSMAN: Is this factually correct, is this what happened that you went to Eric's shop and Eric told you that you must accompany him to a mine at Stilfontein?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No that is not correct.
ADV. BOSMAN: Then why did you say this then?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I was under pressure at that time.
ADV. BOSMAN: But why did you particularly want to implicate Eric then as being the originator of the idea to go to Stilfontein?  I just don't understand it.  Why , if you were under pressure and I accept you were probably under pressure because you were with the police, why did you think up this about Eric in particular and implicate him as the originator of the idea?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I was trying to safeguard myself from the policeman's torture and I decided to tell a lie.
ADV. BOSMAN: But why Eric in particular, why did you decide on Eric?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was just instantaneous, I was being tortured.
ADV. BOSMAN: Right, then you said during your evidence - just bear with me for a moment - that there were people involved in the operation who were not members of the PAC and that these people were not supposed to know what the exercise was about.  What did you tell them, these people who were not supposed to know?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I'm not the one who informed them or recruited them, it's Chris who approached them because I approached Chris and he approached them.
ADV. BOSMAN: Didn't you have any discussions with them at all, didn't you tell them what was in it for them, whether they would share in the proceeds and how?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I told them about their role to play in there.
ADV. BOSMAN: What did you tell them?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I told them that should we get the money we will share it.
ADV. BOSMAN: Did you discuss the basis on which it would be shared?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I did.
ADV. BOSMAN: How did you intend sharing it?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Proportionally.

CHAIRPERSON: Equal shares?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes equal shares.
ADV. BOSMAN: Would this not have to a large extent defeated the object of the exercise and that is to really put APLA in money?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No.
ADV. BOSMAN: I don't want to take it too far but surely if half the money or more than half of the money would have gone to people who were not even APLA members, this would certainly have been to the prejudice of APLA if this exercise was intended?   Seven eights, there was very little in the whole exercise for APLA if this was going to be the manner in which you would share.  Do you agree?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Advocate Bosman is saying, there were eight of you, if it was equal shares your share would go to APLA, that would be one eighth of the loot, seven eighths would go to other people who were not members of the movement.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, sir.
ADV. BOSMAN: Did you sort of think this through at the time, think about it?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I did.  I thought thoroughly about it.
ADV. BOSMAN: Didn't it worry you.