Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-18

PROF MEIRING: I would like to ask a question on how your family were affected by the injury of your father and after so many years, the death of your father.  Your mother, how did she suffer from what happened to your father, and the other children in the family, can you tell us about that please?

MR RAMMATLA: Actually, what happened at home because of the attack, we suffered a lot. We didn't have anything, we could not do anything, and then we realised that this government is not doing anything and we just have to follow where they want us to go because we didn't have anything. We didn't have any intentions or anything we could do.

PROF MEIRING: The last question from my side, did you ever consider to go to the police or to open a case against the attackers of your father?

MR RAMMATLA: There was no time to go and open a case, because we were guarded just like slaves, we were not even in a position to go out, we were afraid of those people, we were just waiting, we just had to stay at home and couldn't go to the police.  Even in hospital, many people didn't go to hospital, as I've said.  They were treated at home by their women.

MR MALAN: Mr Rammatla, can you please tell us, and you would have heard these previous witnesses also talking about resisting the chieftainship of Chief Ben Mathlala and giving evidence that they wanted Dikelele, his brother's wife to rule.  Was that part of the conflict where you were?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes Dikelele, that is true, she was supposed to rule, because her husband, they took her husband to the south side and they said he is going to a school of chieftainship but he was arrested and we did not know this.
 When he came back at Mathlala, he didn't rule us for a very long time, and then he married Dikelele and he died, and we were ruled by Dikelele and the people of the TC started fighting with Dikelele and she was expelled and the family was banned, they were assaulted and after that, we don't know where she went because she ran away.

MR MALAN: Perhaps one other question, that was one of the reasons for the feud in the township, and you also gave evidence, also in writing, that it concerned the grazing rights, that they wanted you to reduce the number of cattle and goats.  Was the fact that they removed the cattle, as you say, the 150 goats and the 24 sheep and the 16 donkeys, was that related to the fact that you resisted the order
that the numbers be reduced or taken off the land?

MR RAMMATLA: No it was not a law.  They took it as a law because their chief, who is Ghahume, is the one who said that they should take our cattle, goats and donkeys, because they said they belong to the ANC and they were many and as a result were doing it by force in this area.

MR MALAN: If I may, you referred to people coming to take your cattle, a group of men, and you later referred to people coming and who injured and beat up your father.  Now I assume that these people were supporters of Benjamin Mathlala, am I right to make that assumption?

MR RAMMATLA: That's true.

MR MALAN: The same village as well?

MR RAMMATLA: Those people were coming from our area and from the surrounding areas, I can just say that they were people of the former apartheid government, and they were supporters of Benjamin Mathlala Ghaume.

MR MALAN: These people who came from your own village, did your father know them?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes my father knew them because the one whom I say is the wife of my brother, she knows them.

MR MALAN: Where are they, are they still in the village or have they left, did they move?

MR RAMMATLA: They are still there, as she says.

MR MALAN: #What is the situation in the village now, do you know.  Do you live in the village or do you still live in Johannesburg?

MR RAMMATLA: I still stay there, I didn't go back, I stay there where we ran away, we are staying with some of them.

RUSSELL ALLY: Could I just on this issue, you say you're staying there, you see that as your home but you're presently living in Thembisa, according to your statement.  You're working and living in Thembisa as a painter and a carpenter, is that correct?

MR RAMMATLA: Yes that is true, I work in Thembisa but I stay here at home, my work place is at Thembisa, but I stay here at Simane.

THOMAS MANTHATA: There is only one question, as you have said that during that time, it was difficult for people to come in and out at Hammatlala, more especially the people who belonged to the Congress.  My question is, you the people who were working in Johannesburg, did you have any problem, how did you visit your area?

MR RAMMATLA: When we came home we came to investigate where our parents were.  We came there being afraid, because we didn't know where they were.  We just came there as people who did not want to be seen because we were afraid that if they saw us they were going to kill us before even reaching home.  But it was better because they stopped the fighting and we were looking for our parents.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Sidwell, we thank you for coming here before the Commission.  We see the problems that people were not able to say what happened to them, and who tried to explain everything that happened before.  We are going to work with the people of Hammatlala to see how we can bring peace and reconciliation and just greet them at home.  Thank you.