Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

SISI KHAMPEPE: During your criminal trial she testified that you were part of the group that participated in the killing of Namawakwe Gillie.

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you explain why Mr Gillie was killed in such a gruesome manner?

M A NZIMANDE: We stabbed him and we were many.  We were, he was inside the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: See, according to the post mortem report, he suffered 36 incised wounds to the body and two bullet wounds to the chest and he was decapitated.

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I would say he was seriously injured, because he was one of the very active IFP members.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that the only reason why he was killed in such a gruesome manner, that he was more active and when you say he was more active, what do you mean?

M A NZIMANDE: It is because if someone got shot in that area it will be said that he was also involved in that particular incidence.  Even the, during the killing of Spatelie, he was involved.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how many people participated in his killing?

M A NZIMANDE: I will say it was approximately, not more than ten.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was he stabbed with assegais?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct, we also stabbed him with assegais.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did you use bush knives?

M A NZIMANDE: Whoever was armed with any particular arm, they, whatever kind of arm, they use it to kill him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you used an assortment of arms to kill him?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chair ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think I have made a mistake.  In fact, the post mortem I have referred to is that of ...

JUDGE WILSON: Becker Poswa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... Becker Poswa.  I am sorry.  All the questions that I have put to you, in fact, relate to the injuries sustained by, the injuries sustained by Mr Becker Poswa.  Did you participate in the killing of Mr Becker Poswa?

M A NZIMANDE: No, I did not even touch him.  However, when we were leaving from Bajwa going to Umkumazi I saw him lying along the road and his head was cut off, but I did not touch him myself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: What were you doing ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: What were you doing at Gengeshe?  How did you make a living there?

M A NZIMANDE: I had a family there and I was staying there and I was working.

JUDGE WILSON: What work were you doing?

M A NZIMANDE: I was a cooker at one of the White schools.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you have a home?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you and your family live there?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: How big was your family?

M A NZIMANDE: We were many, about seven and also our younger sisters.  There were three.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you all move out of Gengeshe?

M A NZIMANDE: My father left to one of my sister's place, who was married, and, myself, I went to Ndaleni.

JUDGE WILSON: And what happened to your home?

M A NZIMANDE: It was burnt down.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, members of the committee.  Your, going to your ANC membership, when did you first join the ANC?

M A NZIMANDE: In 1991.

MR WILLS: And when did you get an ANC card?

M A NZIMANDE: 1991.

MR WILLS: Now, you referred, in answer to a question from the evidence leader, that whilst you were staying at Ndaleni you were burying people and one of the committee members asked you whether or not these people were originally from Gengeshe.  Do you remember that?

M A NZIMANDE: I do.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Poswa referred in his evidence to a Mantutu Poswa, who was originally in Gengeshe and he fled to Pinetown and he was killed in Pinetown.  Do you recall that evidence?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I remember.

MR WILLS: Now, was he one of the persons that was buried?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you know who was responsible for the death of Mantutu Poswa?

M A NZIMANDE: Even if I did not see them, I heard that it was the IFP members who killed him.

MR WILLS: Did you know, did you hear specifically which IFP members?  I cannot hear.  Can you hear?

INTERPRETER: Sorry.  He said it was Becker and Namawakwe.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Poswa also referred earlier on in his evidence to an attack on a Msolwa Basi in 1991, where this person was shot, but he was not killed.  Do you recall that?

M A NZIMANDE: I do remember.

MR WILLS: Now, what eventually happened to this Msolwa Basi?  Do you know ?

M A NZIMANDE: He was attacked at Gengeshe.  He was shot.  He left Gengeshe and he had been, he was killed in Durban by the IFP supporters.

MR WILLS: And was this at the Gleeblands Hostel in Durban?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, was he also one of the persons you buried whilst you were staying at Ndaleni?

M A NZIMANDE: No, he was buried in Changa.

MR WILLS: Did you attend his funeral?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I was there.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Nzimande, are you related to the Poswa family?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I am related.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  Thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, members of the committee, I wish to call a third witness very briefly, a Mr Vincent Poswa.  Not an applicant, just a witness.

JUDGE WILSON: I think we will have to make the same arrangement as previously.  If the two applicants could move and sit at the chairs here and he can give evidence from that table.  Mr Vincent Poswa.
MR WILLS CALLS

VINCENT POSWA: (Duly sworn in, states).
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Poswa, where were you born?

VINCENT POSWA: I was born in Gengeshe.

MR WILLS: And where do you reside?

VINCENT POSWA: I am staying at Gengeshe.  However, I work in Durban.

MR WILLS: What work do you do?

VINCENT POSWA: I am a Manager.

MR WILLS: For which company are you a Manager?

VINCENT POSWA: Creamline Dairies.

MR WILLS: For how long have you worked there?

VINCENT POSWA: From 1975.

MR WILLS: And how old are you now?

VINCENT POSWA: I am 47 years old.

MR WILLS: Now, are you an ANC member?

VINCENT POSWA: Yes, I am.

MR WILLS: For how long have you been an ANC member?

VINCENT POSWA: Since from 1986.

MR WILLS: I am instructed that you are, in fact, the blood brother of the first applicant, Mr M T Poswa.  Is that correct?

VINCENT POSWA: That is correct.  We are born of the same mother.

MR WILLS: Would you describe yourself as being a prominent ANC member or would you consider yourself to be an ordinary member?

VINCENT POSWA: I am just an ordinary member of the ANC.

MR WILLS: Now, it is, you have heard the evidence concerning the attack on the 26th of September, not so, or the incident on the 26th of September.

VINCENT POSWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you yourself participate in that incident?

VINCENT POSWA: No.

MR WILLS: Now, you have also heard the evidence of both the applicants relating to the lack of free political association in the Gengeshe area.  Is that correct?

VINCENT POSWA: Yes.

MR WILLS: I want you to comment, from your point of view, on the issue of your own experience in Gengeshe as regards your ANC affiliation.  Were you free to be an ANC member in Gengeshe?