Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR K LEBEA: Actually on the event of the incident I was standing outside and after hearing noise inside which I didn't know what was the cause of the noise.  I entered the room through a broken window and what I saw inside there, I saw the victim, Mr van Tonder, was being attacked by the Task Force members and the wife of Mr van Tonder was standing aside trying to stop what was happening there, but unfortunately she couldn't put her hands in there and then because of the noise that was going on, the noise from Mr van Tonder and his wife who was trying to save her husband's life.  I shouted for this guy to stop because the noise was going too far and I decided to shout at them, so that they can stop what they were doing because it was not in the right manner, because it was causing noise, it might invite some uninvited guests.  So they stopped after realising what I was trying to do to them and then because Mr van Tonder was having a shotgun which I didn't know the name thereof, by the time I ordered them to stop, they turned around, Mr van Tonder was having a gun in his hand and he fired a shot which I didn't know whom he hit and these guy they all go out running from the sound of that gun.
 	Then what happened there, Mr van Tonder pointed the firearm at me and he shot me in my right thigh and thereafter, because I was having a gun myself, I started chasing him in the house and Mrs van Tonder tried to close the sliding door and she was in front and Mr van Tonder was behind and I decided to shoot her because she was on my way, I was short, so I had to do what I wanted to do by that time, which was returning the fire to someone who shot me.  
	After that incident, I went out to look what was happening to these other three guys.  I came to find my brother lying on the ground.  Clearly he was shot and I testified he was shot at the back, so I took him to the room behind me, the back room which was said to be a rondavel and then I put him there and he lied there.  I never knew what to do after that because I never experienced such a thing like that where somebody has been shot, especially in the back where the bullet was in the stomach. I never knew what to do.  I ended up taking these other three guys and we went back, breaking the kitchen door, forcefully breaking it, opening it, entering the kitchen and I wanted something to help my brother.  I never thought what could it be, but I wanted something.  I opened the fridge.  I didn't know what to do.  I thought maybe ice can help, but I never thought it would.  At last I end up entering the house in the passage and I said to myself, anybody trying to stop me I'm going to shoot him or her, whoever it can be.  
	Unfortunately I never saw anyone until I entered the room. In that room it was a bedroom of Mr van Tonder and Mrs van Tonder.  What I did in there, the other guys were, by the time I entered, other guys entered the room too, so they were searching for what they were searching for, which was to be done there, but what I did, I opened the wardrobe, clothes wardrobe, because I was looking for one thing, a key to the car, so that I can rescue the life of the person who was shot.  I opened the wardrobe.  Luckily, I don't know maybe the spiritual God was there to guide me for what I was doing there, I raised my hand and reached right on top of the wardrobe.  My hand fell right on top of the car keys and I took the car keys and I got out and the other guy by the name of Mokweti, Samuel, he showed me the safe which was in the corner.  He said the safe is there and the gun is there and I said to him:  "Leave those behind, because someone is injured, or you can take them yourself" and I go out of the door, went to the garage.  	Instead of opening the car first, I broke the car window with my fist and opened the car, entered and started the car and going to fetch my brother at the back of the rondavel, putting him back in the car and Abram Smith decided he will drive because I didn't know how to drive a car and we drove off from the scene there.  
	We went straight to ...(indistinct) hospital.  Unfortunately Thaba N'chu was too far and we never knew how far could he make until the hospital so instead we decided to put him in ...(indistinct) hospital.
	When we arrived there we took him to the reception where they wanted R20.  Luckily for him, those goods which were taken by those other guys, there was money.  I went back to the car and I took R20 to pay for him at the hospital and they admitted him.  I was shot too, but I was still walking right, I was only full of blood.  I went back to the car and then we went back home.  
	When we arrived home, I felt I was too weak and I was feeling like some kind of dizziness, so I decided that I have to go and see a doctor, so I told these other two guys that I have to go and see a doctor and then I don't know where everything can be stored, so I took there, I don't know whether it was a jewel box, because it was mixed, there was money and all those stuff inside, I took it and I put it in a safe place and I told them to look for the safe place for the car until such time that ...(indistinct) and I went to the private doctor who told me that I was too weak, I need to be put on the water, something like that and the right place for that is hospital, so I went to hospital.  I was admitted at the hospital that same day and put on those drips, water drips, I don't know what kind of water is that.  
	The following day I felt better and insisted on the doctor that I'm feeling better so I have to go because I knew I have to go and do something about what has happened.  So the doctor told me to wait until later.  Later to find out I was taken out on the stretcher, taken to the other wards where it was under - guarded by the police.  I was put in that ward and on my arrival I was chained on my legs and when I asked what was the cause, they said that I'm a suspect, so I slept there for about two days.  After two days the cops came there to fetch me to go and answer me some questions and after that I was referred to the custody.  That is how I went so far.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Lebea, you heard your brother testifying that he told the Committee yesterday that he gave you instructions before he was taken to hospital what you should do with the goods that were taken and now you are telling the Committee something different to what your brother told the Committee.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, I heard what my brother said.  What has happened is that maybe my brother, okay he did said something that he said but because of the something like the collapse that had happened there, I never listened anymore to what he was saying because I was concerned about one thing, the life that was to be lost by that day, so unfortunately because I was shot too, I would never have managed to do whatever it can be done, I did up to so far by holding some other items and then instructing the other guys to go and hide other things somewhere where they can because I was concentrated on my pain on my leg and the dizziness I was suffering.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me take you step by step.  He told the Committee that on your arrival there, you put an AK47 in the vehicle which was there, is that correct?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, he told the Committee that he put the AK47 in the vehicle, but the AK47 was not in the vehicle by that time, it was near the vehicle because the vehicle was locked, so he might be mistaken there.  Maybe he doesn't remember well and as far as I'm concerned, according to my knowledge, he's no more good in memories, he sometimes loses memories and sometimes when you ask him questions, it turns that he never heard it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now are you telling the Committee that what your brother told the Committee, that is the first applicant, is not actually the way things happened on the day in question?