Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR VISSER: I am indebted to your Mr Chairman, and perhaps in view of what you have just read to me, I should leave this, the few questions on what transpired at the trial until such time as I've had an opportunity of studying exactly what happened there.
	May I return to Mr Venter.  Mr Ngo, I am informed by the police here in Bloemfontein, who were policemen at the time of Mr Venter's death, that he was never an informer nor did he ever have any political profile as far as the Security Branch was concerned, what do you say to that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I will answer by saying that, what they told me that he was an informer and that he collaborates with them, then I can stay with him he would not sell me out.  I took it that he was an informer as they told me, however, I cannot say he was an informer to me because I was told by Captain Erasmus that he was his informer.  I don't know when he gave information and how, but I just knew that he was a railway worker.

MR VISSER: Yes.  How often did you in fact stay on the premises of Mr Venter, once, twice, often, permanently?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I stayed there for 14 days at Mr Venter's place. From there I left his place and I stayed at a private nurse where they will extract the stitches.

MR VISSER: This 14 days, are you saying that that was after you were assaulted by your fellow students?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, from there I was assaulted by fellow students until I was ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Until you were?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Until the stitches were to be extracted by this private nurse.

MR VISSER: And then you didn't go back to Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Then I did go back to him.  Then I took my clothing and then I left for Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Visser can I just interrupt you on that point.  You see it's not clear to me what your answer was to a question about when it was put to you that Mr Venter was not a police informant, what was your answer?  Did you say that you assumed, you assumed he was an informer, or exactly what did you say?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The time when I was taken to his place Mr Erasmus told me that he's working together with Mr Venter and Mr Venter is his informer, that's what he told me.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Commissioner.  Did Mr Venter allow you to use his motor car at any time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Whilst I was still there, the time when I was still there, but after training when I came for my contacts, he used to lend me his car.

MR VISSER: Now you say when you were still there, was that during this 14 days that you were talking about, that he lent you his car?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, the 14 days when I was there he didn't lend me his car, but after training, when he was my contact, he used to lend me his car.

MR VISSER: Yes.  At that stage you didn't need any refuge did you, from Mr Venter, because you were now a policeman, you have been trained you were now a policeman, you didn't need any refuge from Mr Venter did you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I didn't need any protection, it was the person I know, I used to go to him.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes and you went back and you borrowed his car, not so, you were very friendly with him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was my contact person between myself and my parents because he was staying here, I was staying in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Why don't you just want to answer the question, you were very friendly with him and he with you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was person who was honest with me.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Do you know, are you aware of the fact - well let me ask this question first of all, was there a time, or were there times when Mr Venter lent you his car and you didn't return it, did that happen?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is when I capsized with that car.

MR VISSER: So I take it your answer is yes, there were times that you failed to return the car to Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The time I didn't return the car it was when I capsized with the car.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Was there a time when you left for Pretoria and left the car at the railway station without telling Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No Sir.

MR VISSER: I see.  Will it surprise you to know that Mr Venter at some point laid a charge of using a motor car without his permission against you, that you just took the car from him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That charge was never brought to me so I didn't know about it, even up to now I don't know anything about it.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I'll tell you why I am asking you these
questions Mr Ngo, because there is going to be evidence which is going to point to a very friendly relationship between you and Mr Venter, that's the first point.  And the second point is, it appears that something must have gone wrong in your relationship with Mr Venter which led to his death, I am putting it to you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mr Venter was the person whom we were always together at all times and I loved him very much, even I told my seniors that it was difficult for me to kill him.

MR VISSER: Yes, you loved him very much, you see this is the point I am trying to make all along, thank you.  You see ...(intervention)

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: With the reason I have already explained.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You see Mr Ngo the policemen whom you implicate, Erasmus, Shaw and Ramaswewu and Mamume, all of those people deny the allegations which you make against them of their involvement in criminal activities or that they gave you instructions to perform criminal activities, they deny that.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If I was a policeman, if I was a captain or adjutant or one of the senior ranks and somebody junior who was at risk or in a problem and implicated me in these kind of issues I would deny because my future would be doomed.  And again in Free State nobody has ever told people about what they have done in the past and even the police who were engaged in other atrocities.  I am the one who did expose what the police did.

MR VISSER: You see Mr Ngo you were told to go and kill the man "you loved", in your own words, and the reason why you had to kill him appears to be that he was failing to provide information to the Security police about railway strikes and that he received money and that he wanted not to be a police informer any longer, am I fair to you, were those the reasons?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The most important thing is that I was a policeman and he was working with us at that time, as Mr Erasmus did say if he turned away not able to work with the police again and become an enemy of the police again, he is always - he turned against the police and therefore we had to assassinate him.

MR VISSER: So are you saying that the reason why he had to be assassinated was because he was going to become an enemy of the police, is that what you are now saying?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The first thing is if you sever your relationship with the police you are now an enemy of the police because you are no more giving us the information we need.

MR VISSER: But how does that make you an enemy Mr Ngo?  You are not an informer any longer, you're a policeman, how does that make you - the fact that you ceased being an informer how does that make you an enemy of the police, necessarily?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If we use as an informer it's not because you severed the relationship with them but they did give him money and he had some information about strikes which he denied to give us information about, and because of the three reasons I was able to find out why I was given the instructions to kill this person.  If you severed the relationship with this person then what about me, because he severed the relationship with those people he was working with all the time.