Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

MR MADASA: Was that meeting a formal meeting, chaired or was it informal?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: The meeting had proceeded when I arrived there, and therefore I do not know who chaired the meeting.

MR MADASA: Was there anything at that meeting said about the death of Blanko and Bulelwa?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I didn't hear anything to that effect.

MR MADASA: Were their deaths the subject of that meeting?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: What I still remember is that they had long been waiting for the Peace Committee vehicle, and it hadn't shown up because the corpse had been laying there since the previous night.

MR MADASA: Why were you involved in removing Mavuso from his home?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I followed the instructions that comrade Commander gave to me.

MR MADASA: Was that your duty in the SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, it is part of my duty that I carry out what instructions he gave me.

MR MADASA: SDU was maintaining peace within the community, is that correct?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: Was the removal of Mavuso part of that?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I can say so sir because even when I say when I arrived there, the meeting had already proceeded, I heard that the community was complaining that someone had been shot at night, and now other comrades had indicated that Mavuso is also part of what happened the previous night.

MR MADASA: Did you benefit anything from your participation in this matter?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There is nothing that I benefitted from this.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

MR MADASA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  The meeting that you are talking about, is it a meeting that was addressed by Mashinini?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I would not so no comrade, because I don't even know Mashinini, whether he was there or not, I have never seen him.

MR MAPOMA: And the meeting you are talking about, was it a meeting nearby Bulelwa's corpse?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Did you attend any meeting at Blanko's place?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I didn't stay at Blanko's place.  I just went there to establish the damage and then I went back.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions Judge Ngcobo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mtshali, it would seem the meeting we are talking about, in actual fact was not a meeting, but it was the people who had gathered there after hearing a whistle being blown, am I correct?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words there was no specific Chairperson, specific speakers who were addressing the people, only some SDU members addressed the people who had gathered there to pay their respects?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I would ask the Chairperson to indicate exactly which meeting is he talking about.  The one at Bulelwa's place or Bulelwa's body or something else, another meeting?

MR SIBANYONI: The one at Bulelwa's place?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I have already explained that in the first day we were sent away and I went back to sleep.   On the second day I came back and they were discussing the fact that they were waiting for the Peace Committee vehicle for a very long time, and it had now shown up.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtshali, I heard you saying you followed the instructions which were given by the Commander, but now when you look back and look at the deeds which you committed, people have lost their dear ones, children have lost their parents, is there anything you would like to say in that regard?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There is nothing that I would like to say.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying you are not sorry for what happened, you don't have any remorse over what you did?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I feel remorse.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Mr Mtshali, you said that you got the instructions from the Commander to go and fetch Mavuso to answer to questions.  Is that correct?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Then you said when you arrived, you went back to the corpse, and when you arrived it was indicated to the community that this is the person, and then he was taken to the shack and then you went back to the community and attended the meeting that was being held there, is that correct?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: My question is whether you were present when any questions were asked of Mavuso?  Did the Commander ask questions of Mavuso?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: He presented Mr Mavuso to the public and on doing so, he indicated that the boys from the shack said Mavuso was also part of it.  I was not there when he was being questioned.

MR MALAN: You were still there when he was taken to the shack?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I was there when he was taken to the shack, but I then went back to the community.

MR MALAN: So while you were there, Mavuso did not address the community?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I don't remember him talking.

MR MALAN: May I take you to another meeting in Block F.  You heard the evidence of some of your co-applicants, your comrades, that a new SDU was to be established in Block F, some time before this incident.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I know about that.

MR MALAN: Did you attend that meeting?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I did.

MR MALAN: Did the community accept the new SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: It was said this SDU was going to be in charge of Block F.  But those who were present said they were not enough SDU members in Block F, and therefore they need their own Self Defence Unit because Block F is facing Zonkezizwe which place is an Inkatha area.

MR MALAN: And those present, agreed to that?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, they did.

MR MALAN: Did anyone object?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No one objected to this.

MR MALAN: Everybody was happy?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I wouldn't say, but I never heard any objection.

MR MALAN: From no one?  Did no one object?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No one objected sir.

MR MALAN: Was Bulelwa there?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, she was there.

MR MALAN: Did she object?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: She was told to keep quiet.  When it was time for them to indicate to the community that every household should donate R50-00 to buy shovels.

MR MALAN: Did she object to the R50-00 or what did she object to, why was she told to keep quiet, what did she say?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: She said that it is not possible for another Self Defence Unit to be formed when there is already one existing.

MR MALAN: Mr Mtshali, did you hear her say that or did you hear that in evidence from someone else who sat here yesterday and during the week?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I personally heard her say that.

MR MALAN: Would that not have been construed as an objection?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Those who were at the meeting showed not to be in agreement with what she was saying and it transpired that she was, yes, objecting to what had already been said.

MR MALAN: How old was Bulelwa, do you have any idea?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I would say she was somewhere around 22 years.

MR MALAN: Was she also Youth League?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Even though I cannot be sure, it looks like she was not a member of the Youth League.

MR MALAN: But you are not sure?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was she an enemy to the Youth League?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I am not sure about that Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: No further questions thank you, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?