Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-25

MR SIBEKO: So you - through the pictures you identified some of the people to be staying at that particular house, is that correct?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: There was an area or a house particularly that was occupied by the Zulus and some of the people we identified on the photographs were from that particular house.

MR SIBEKO: Right, proceed, Mr Majiki.

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: When we were done at that scene as we had started running away, we disappeared after the shots of that AK47.
	After a while, a few minutes, maybe five minutes later we attempted to go back to that scene.  We discovered that the person who was in our company was no longer there.  We did not know what happened or how he disappeared subsequently and what happened was that that evening there was no rest at all.  There were meetings that were called, one after another, many meetings of the community called. 
	At these community meetings it was suggested that people are dying and what should be done in light of this problem until the community agreed that the community will donate some money and after that weapons should be purchased to defend the community.
	People would not be staying at their houses, we'd always be on the road running away.  The community donated some money until we were in a position to buy ourselves weapons to defend the community.

MR SIBEKO: Now by that time you were already a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, that's correct.

MR SIBEKO: Did you join the unit freely and voluntarily, nobody forced you?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: No, I was not coerced.  Because the situation was so bad and volatile there were no other means and I had to join out of my own volution.

MR SIBEKO: Now before us we've got evidence to the effect that at your place, that is Lusaka-A your first commander was a person by the name of Mfinos, were you a member of the Self Defence Unit at the time Mfinos was a commander?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, I was.

MR SIBEKO: Were there incidents other than the one that you have just narrated, wherein you were involved under his command?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, there are other incidents that took place during Mfinos' era.  If it would have happened, it so happened that Section Slovo and Thambo one evening was attacked and we took to the streets under the commandment of Mfinos, to enlist some help at those places which would be attacked.
	In addition to what I've said, under the commandment of Mfinos there were no incidents that affected us to the extent that something out of the ordinary has happened.  We would respond to the call and we would find out that the situation has been already quelled.

MR SIBEKO: But before you proceed.  You have just indicated that under his instructions or command you went to Slovo and Thambo Section, what actually took place when you arrived there?  What did you do?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Under the instructions of Mfinos we did not at the time have enough weapons to arm ourselves.  It would be a few of us, the minority who would be having weapons.  You would find that some of us like myself would be having knives just to see as to what was happening at the area where there would be attacks.  In other words I will say the violence, we would hear from those who would be asking for our help as to what happened before we arrived.

MR SIBEKO: Were you still a member of the Self Defence Unit at the time Mosa Msimango took over as a commander of the branch or of the unit?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, then I was a very strong and staunch member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: Are there incidences wherein you were involved at that time of, at the time Mosa Msimango was commander?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, there are.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those incidences?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: The first incident I took part under the command of Mosa Msimango relates Mshayazafe area and Mazibuko I was there as well.

ADV SANDI: Sorry to interpose.  What happened at Mshayazafe area?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: As I've already indicated earlier on, our section as it was a section that was in the middle, the role that we played was to help assist the other upper sections from our area that were being attacked.  In other words I would say what happened there were people shooting at each other, crossfire in other words, one group shooting the other and the other shooting the other group.

ADV SANDI: Were those the people with the red bands?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, we were fighting those ones with the red headbands.

ADV SANDI: Were you personally armed which this thing happened at Mshayazafe?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, I was armed with an AK47.

ADV SANDI: Did you pull the trigger?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: The way things were you would not go there and form part of the incident without shooting.  The minute you think you want to withdraw it may so happen that you would have left the area where you're supposed to be.  In other words I did pull the trigger, I shot.

ADV SANDI: Did your bullets hit anyone?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Because of the situation that prevailed at that particular time we would be so remote from one another, it would be a distance of about 500 metres and you'll that person is shooting at you and now you are shooting at him in such a way that it would not be very clear and obvious as to who or how many I've shot and ensure that they are killed, or they've been killed.

ADV SANDI: Did some of the people from the group you were fighting with get killed and injured?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, some were injured from our group.

ADV SANDI: What about the other group from the other side, did anybody get killed?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Because we were not on good terms, we would not be able to get information as to what transpired on the other side as a result of this conflict.  We would have details of our own group but not the opposing group.  We would not have details pertaining to what happened.

MR SIBEKO: But it's possible that people from the other side could have died or got injured?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, it's possible.

MR SIBEKO: Now besides this incident, are there other incidents you were involved in under Mosa Msimango's command?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Please repeat your question.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have other incidents wherein you were involved at the time Mosa Msimango was a  commander?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: No, there are not any other incidents under the command of Mosa Msimango.  One that I will make mention of is the one of Mazibuko after the one of Mshayazafe.  I was there and we shot.

MR SIBEKO: At Mazibuko, were you carrying a weapon?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, I was always in possession of my firearm, that is the AK47.

MR SIBEKO: You have just told us that you were fighting and shots were fired, did you also, or were you one of those who fired shots?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: I will not say I never shot, I did shoot at all these incidents that I took part in because it was a war situation.

MR SIBEKO: The same question again, do you know whether people from the other side died or got injured as a result of the shooting?

NICHOLAS MBUYSELO MAJIKI: Yes, I would say that some got injured, some were killed because a firearm is not designed in such a way that you would be cultivating the ground or as a duco of some kind.  You see if you pull the trigger, using the firearm, once you pull that trigger what will be discharged from that firearm will definitely injure or kill.

MR SIBEKO: Did you know about the existence of the Committee of Seven?