Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-11

MR BOOYENS: Through the course of the afternoon of the 11th of September you had another phone call from Colonel Goosen.  Is that correct?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour, he called me to Walmer Police Station.  There he instructed me to be on standby, that he was making arrangements to send the deceased to Pretoria Prison, which had better medical facilities.

MR BOOYENS: Was there any mention of him flying, of being sent by aeroplane?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He said, amongst others, that he was arranging that the deceased would be transported with an aircraft to Pretoria.  Should he fail, then I had to prepare myself to take him with a motor vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Later that afternoon while at Walmer Police Station, apart from police officers, did you note or meet with anyone else?  Did you make any enquiries with regard to his health?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I met Dr Tucker there in the cell with Mr Biko.  He was attending to Mr or inspecting Mr Biko.  I noted that there was foam at the corners of Mr Biko's mouth, spit.  Saliva, if I can, and he was being inspected or attended t by Dr Tucker.  I asked Dr Tucker what was wrong with the deceased and he told me that he did not know, that he could not determine what was wrong with him.  From the conversation that ensued between myself and Dr Tucker, I was satisfied that he was aware that the deceased were to be transported to Pretoria.  The conversation had to do, in addition, with a request from his part and on my part, that the medical doctor who were going to attend to him the next day, would have to have the opportunity to phone Dr Tucker so that the medical report, as he, Dr Tucker, and the other medical doctors had seen in Port Elizabeth, could be communicated to the medical doctors in Pretoria.

MR BOOYENS: At the time, when you and Mr or Dr Tucker were negotiating, did it then appear that he would be transported by road if not by air?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you make any enquiries to determine or did the doctor say anything about this?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He was aware that we would now transport him by road.  Colonel Goosen had already, at that time, indicated that he failed to obtain an aircraft and that we would have to transport him by road.

MR BOOYENS: Did Dr Tucker say anything about this?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: What vehicle did you use?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: The only vehicle available to the security branch in which a person could lie down was a Land Rover station wagon.  This was not an open Land Rover, it had a cab on it, it was covered, and one of its seats had been removed.  I requested Lieutenant Wilken to prepare this particular vehicle for us and to phone other members to accompany us.

MR BOOYENS: Who accompanied you in the end?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: It was Lieutenant Wilken, Warrant Officer Fouche and Sergeant Niewoudt as well as myself.

MR BOOYENS: When did you leave Port Elizabeth?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, it was about six o' clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Just, please, just mention those names again.  I am sorry, I did not, please, I could not hear.

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, the persons who accompanied us was myself, Lieutenant Wilken, Warrant Officer Fouche and Sergeant Niewoudt.

MR BOOYENS: You would say that that was about six o' clock?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: About six o' clock, your Honour, it was already dusk.

MR BOOYENS: At what time did you arrive in Pretoria?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: The next morning at about nine o' clock.

MR BOOYENS: That would be Pretoria Central Prison.  Is that correct?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: You then handed the deceased over to the prison service officials?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: What was his state of health at that point?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, we had to assist him out of the vehicle.  We had to use a stretcher which was made available to us.

MR BOOYENS: So you had to carry him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Something that is relevant in this matter, was Mr Biko dressed in the back of the Land Rover?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, he was wearing only a pair of underpants.  I asked the members who accompanied me, those members whom I had asked to prepare the vehicle and obtain the vehicle had also received instructions from me to process Mr Biko at the police station and to collect him.  I joined them at a later stage since I had some other arrangements, personal arrangements to make.  I had to collect clothes for myself, I had to purchase food for the road and just outside Blouwater Baai, outside Port Elizabeth we stopped to eat.  When I got out of the car and looked back in the vehicle to see whether the deceased had any interest in food I noticed his right leg, I noticed that it was open and naked.  I then determined that he was only wearing underpants.
	I asked the members why this was the case, why he was not fully dressed and they informed me that it was very difficult to dress him since he was clumsy and stiff.  I then realised that it would be even more difficult to dress him in the back of the Land Rover.  I accept that I made no effort to dress him.  I also accept that this was inhumane.  However, I do want to mention at the same time, that there were a number of cell mats on which he was lying as well as a number of blankets and a pillow, that he was fully covered.  It was not as if he was publicly naked or anything like that.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any conversation with any of the prison staff with regard to Mr Biko when he was taken in?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.  If I recall correctly, it would have been a Colonel Dorflan, I believe that was his surname, he received us at the prison and informed us, I informed him that this was the person.  I informed him that he had fallen during an incident at our offices and also that he had been attended to by a number of medical doctors, including two district surgeons and a specialist.  I told him, as Colonel Goosen had instructed me to bring to their attention, that at a previous occasion he faked this and that, in fact, he practised yoga.  This is what I told them.

MR BOOYENS: When you say that he "faked", what do you mean?  That he faked illness?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, on a prior occasion of detention, according to Colonel Goosen.

MR BOOYENS: This is not your personal knowledge, this is information from Goosen which he instructed you to give to them?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes.  I then provided the particulars, including the telephone number of Dr Tucker, to Colonel Dorflan.  At that time there was also a medical ordinance of the prison present or, sorry, a medical orderly.  I requested them to phone Dr Tucker immediately since he was waiting for their call.  That was our arrangement since from, his side, he had to give a medical narrative with regard to Mr Biko's state of health.  In addition, I told them what the importance of this person was, that he was a very prominent figure in the Black power movement, that he had national and internationally a high profile.

MR BOOYENS: What was the intention of your intimation of his prominence to them?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: The reason was that it was necessary for them to give very real attention to him and that he had to receive the necessary treatment.  His state of health and his person, I sketched it for them, broadly.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then return?  Did you turn around and drive back to Port Elizabeth?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: On the 13th of September you heard that Mr Biko had died.  Is that correct?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.