Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo why did you not tell the truth at the trial?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It is because I was told to do so because if I revealed the truth I would have exposed all the operations done by the police and therefore the mess of the police would be exposed.  I was instructed by the officers.

MR NEMANE: Is it correct that what you are saying is that senior officers advised you to conceal police complicity in your killing and robbing Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.  All these things that we were doing we did them such that the people should not see that it's the police who did them.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo, when did you first become involved working with the police?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was a COSAS member and an executive member as a secretary.  As we were going ahead with the duties of COSAS we were charged with public violence and we were arrested and kept at Fontein with Petrus Oliphant and Oupa Makubalo.  As we were there we were beaten up by the police and they demanded to know why did we do all the things we did.
Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus took me aside and they tried to talk to me and they showed me that this charge of public violence will land me into prison and should I land in prison I won't be able to further my studies, and the politics is not good for me.  If I want them to drop the charges I must cooperate with them.  Because I was afraid of going to prison I agreed.  Since then I've been working with them as an informer.  Until the students became aware of that and they attacked me due to the information that I gave them and they hid me at Mr Venter's house on one instance when the students attacked me.

MR NEMANE: Now you say that - I beg your pardon, you say that they hid you at Mr Venter's house, who hid you at Mr Venter's house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It's Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus with Adjutant Tswametsi, he is the one who took me to hospital after this attack by the students.

MR NEMANE: And what was the purpose of hiding you at Mr Venter's house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They did not want these people to know where I was and it wouldn't be - I won't be able to go home, and Mr Venter was always providing the hiding for all the informers, so they kept me there for security reasons.

MR NEMANE: What was the relationship of Mr Venter with the police?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: According to what they told me he was one of their informers and he used to assist them with giving people refuge whenever they needed it.

MR NEMANE: In your application you referred to him as a trade unionist, why do you refer to him as a trade unionist?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was working at the South African Railways and
he was giving them all the information regarding the strikes  at the Railway, giving all this information to Lieutenant Shaw.

MR NEMANE: Is it correct that if you had been misled about the nature of the relationship between Mr Venter and the Police you would not have been able to verify such?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would not have verified such, I would have just explained as they told me, that is what they told me and I said what they told me.

MR NEMANE: At the time when you were given the instruction to go and carry out the operation involving Mr Venter, were you a member of the police force, a regular member, a member of the regular police force?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: At that time yes I was a member of the police force.  I shot a Mr Nyongwana in Rocklands and I had a case in Bloemfontein, Rocklands, and therefore they took me to Pretoria and they shielded that case and they told me that I would not be charged, but although I was arrested in the township.  But I was just told I must go back to Pretoria and I won't be charged.  They told me that I mustn't worry about that case, I must just safely go back to Pretoria.  I was a member of the Police Force.

MR NEMANE: When you were given the order to go and kill Mr Venter, could you, according to standard Police practice, refuse to carry out that order?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In the Police force you cannot refuse to do any instructions given by a senior officer.  You had to do as instructed and that's why I did that.

MR NEMANE: If you had refused to carry out the instruction what would have happened to you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Normally the Security Branch is not like any other branch of the police, if you had to do everything and you refused they would take you as an odd element that betrays them and they might even kill you or anything that they have done to the other policemen who did not want to carry out the operations.

MR NEMANE: Now there has been a suggestion by Paul Erasmus that you had a homosexual relationship with the late Mr Venter, what is your comment?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It is a story that I told the Judge to try and cover the case, but as far as I know Mr Venter was not a homosexual.

MR NEMANE: Did you have any homosexual relationship with him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No I am not a homosexual and I am not aware of him being a homosexual, but I did say that in the case and that was a lie.

MR NEMANE: Now there has been a suggestion that the police could not have used you at the time when you killed Mr Venter because at that time the public had already come to discover that you were cooperating with the police, what is your comment thereto?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There is no such, I was working with the police all the time.  They knew well before that I came from the training college, they knew that I'm a policeman, why did they avoid using me if they knew that I was coming from the training college.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo you wish to apply for amnesty, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

MR NEMANE: And how do you feel about the death of Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am very remorseful about what I did to Mr Venter.  Moreover he is the one person who helped me and I seeked refuge in his house when the students wanted to attack me.  But due to the information that they gave me I had to follow the instructions that I had to kill him otherwise I wouldn't have done that.

MR NEMANE: If Mr Venter's relatives were present here would you ask them for forgiveness for what you did to Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I would.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEMANE

MR VISSER: May it please you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngo when you completed your application form were you assisted by anybody who gave you advice, your application for amnesty?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I completed my application form for amnesty alone, however, I handed it to some officials at the prison to type it before they sent it to the Committee.

MR VISSER: Were you aware, when you completed your application form, that you had to make a full disclosure of all the relevant facts concerning the incidents for which you apply for amnesty, were you aware of that fact?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I did know that.

MR VISSER: And did you in fact disclose all the relevant facts in your application form?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Those that I could recall I did disclose them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well let's just look at your application form, page 2, 8B Mr Chairman.  You didn't inform the Committee, in your application form, that you were an informer, did you, an informer of the South African Police before you joined the South African Police, you didn't say
that in your application form?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In my application form, does it show on my application form, there's a place where it shows on my application form.

MR VISSER: I am putting it to you that you didn't tell, you didn't insert in your application form the fact that you were an informer of the South African Police, do you agree with that?