Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MS MORAKA: Can you tell the committee what you and Mr Vilikazi were doing in the basement before the incident at 10:00 occurred?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: We were patrolling the basement.  At times we would go up to the gate and go back right into the basement.  We went patrolling up and down keeping a lookout as to what could possibly happen to the building.

MS MORAKA: Is it correct that the entrance to the parkade is regulated, or access is regulated by an electronically manipulated gate?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: There is an electronically operated gate where you have to use a card to gain access?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: ...(inaudible)

MS MORAKA: And is it further correct that there is another outer gate that was open, that is next to the pavement, closer to the pavement than this other electronically operated gate?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: That on the 28th of March that gate was open and people had to use the electronically operated gate to obtain access?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: That is true.

MS MORAKA: Can you tell the committee what then happened at approximately 10:00 hours?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: As we were still at the basement we heard some gunshots outside and I wouldn't know as to for how long the gunshots went.  At that stage we waited for quite a few minutes, that is myself and Vusi, and when there was relative quiet we proceeded to the gate.  As we peeped through the gate we saw a large group of people who had an assortment of weapons.  They had assegai's, knobkierries, pangas and they were proceeding towards the gate.  As they were coming towards the gate we tried to retreat, that is myself and Vusi.  These people pushed this gate forcefully, that is when I started to cock the gun that I had in my possession.  As I cocked the gun they continued to push the gate forcefully and the gate sort of opened slightly, I started shooting when I realised that they were pushing the gate open and when I fired my gun they ran away from the gate, they proceeded towards the pavement and they got scattered.  We continued to retreat whilst at the same time cocking my gun and I was still cocking my gun I could hear there was gunfire now, an exchange of gunfire outside.
	As that continued I saw one of the street police as well as another policeman who formed some sort of a blockade at the gate and they faced the opposite building and they also took out their guns.  I decided that I was not going to go back towards the gate.  
	The gunfire continued up to such a stage that there was relative quiet and there was another traffic cop as well as a policeman.  I waited for quite some time ... (intervention)

MS MORAKA: Can you go back to the shot or shots that you fired.  How many did you fire?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: Once.

MS MORAKA: You state that the people ran away, did you see anybody getting injured or killed at the gate?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: I never saw any person falling or dying.

MS MORAKA: Thereafter then what happened?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: As I've already explained that at the time I was reversing, actually reversing and I went to stand on the other side of the basement and I saw a traffic officer as well as a policeman, they were in uniform, they also had their guns.  They were facing the front building of the opposite building.

MS MORAKA: Did you remain in the basement for the rest of the day or what did you do?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: I would go from the basement to the toilet.  I could say that I remained at the basement most of the time but not all the time.

MS MORAKA: Did you make a report of this incident to your seniors?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: Yes, there was a time when I went out looking for Mr Khumalo but I couldn't get hold of him, I only got him late that afternoon and I explained to him what had happened at the basement earlier on.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is that Africa Khumalo?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: Yes that is correct.

MS MORAKA: You know, you have been informed Mr Simelane and you heard at the inquest that there is a gentleman who died outside, 3 meters away from the entrance of the parkade, Mr Nkonko.  Did you see Mr Nkonko fall, did you know about the fact that he was killed 3 meters away from the gate?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: With regard to Mr Nkonko's matter, I knew it quite a long time after the incident itself that a person had died, I never saw him falling.  Even the following day on the 29th of March.  I remember this being mentioned that there was a body that was discovered within close proximity of the gate, but it was just a passing matter, I never paid much attention to it.

MS MORAKA: Mr Simelane you have applied for amnesty, why have you applied for amnesty?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: As I've mentioned in my amnesty application that I did not personally see a person getting injured or being killed on that particular day but as it could be found at a later stage that I overreacted or I exceeded the bounds of self defense, that is why I'm applying for amnesty.

MS MORAKA: You were asked in the application what the political objective it is that you sought to achieve and you mentioned that in paragraph 10.a.  Can you in you own words tell the committee what the political objective was, or what was your political objective?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: As it's common knowledge, evidence has been tendered before this committee that the aim of the marchers was that they wanted to obstruct or destruct the elections that were supposed to take place during 1994 and as a person who had a history of fighting for democracy or being a freedom fighter fighting for a new South Africa, it was disturbing to me that there
were some elements who were bound and hell bent on destructing the up and coming elections and this group had been, from time in memorial people who didn't care about people's rights and democracy so that quite disturbed me that they wanted to derail the process which was going to lead to the elections by attacking the Shell House and possibly killing members or people who were working there, so I realised ... (intervention)

MS MORAKA: The interpreter said Shell House.  Did you say Shell House?  Please continue.

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: As I've already explained that it was my dream that we should have a new South Africa and I could see that my dream was now going to be destroyed if this people were going to gain access and be able to kill a number of people inside the building and I could site a number of examples whereby people who are freedom fighters or people who fight for democracy were going to be killed and I realised that if I was just going to sit back and not do anything to protect the head offices of the African National Congress, as well as the leaders and the ordinary people who were office workers who were non-political people who used that building, were also going to get injured and that was going to eat away at my conscience if I sat back and did nothing to protect the people who were inside there.

MS MORAKA: I'm sorry Mr Simelane, can I take you back again.  In the basement did Mr Vilikazi fire any shots?

PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE: According to my recollection I do not remember him firing, I think he did not fire.

MS MORAKA: Thank you Chairperson those are the questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MORAKA

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, Mr Bizos indeed caught us unawares to day when he withdrew the application of the applicant who would have testified next.  As you are well aware, the record of the inquest proceedings is very - it amounts to a lot of pages and we only bring the pages of the applicants or evidence that we anticipate are going to be proceeded with on that particular day.  We could never anticipate, in the circumstances, that this witness would testify today.