Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Fano and Bekho as well as Basil Ngwenye, Michael Khumalo and Sepo whose surname I have forgotten.  This would also include myself as well as Lucky Ntshetha.

MR PANDAY: Sorry Mr Dlamini, just to clarify, you mentioned Fano left, Bekho left, Basil left, Michael Khumalo left and Sepo left.  What happened to you and Lucky?

CHAIRPERSON: They also left.  The Sepo you are referring to, would that be Sepo Nduli?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So who stayed behind?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Nobody remained behind because we had all left the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why didn't you tell your counsel that nobody was left at the scene?  The way the question was posed to you and the way you purported to respond to it, it was as though you were still going to give us a list of those who remained behind.  Suddenly you are now saying nobody was left behind.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Nobody remained behind because we took an african path so we could not be on  a parallel to each other, we had to follow one another instead on that path back home.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you may proceed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, after you all had left the scene of the murder, you say you had taken a path back home, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: When you and the others reached home, what took place thereafter?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We prepared our medicine to cleanse ourselves of the bad luck.

MR PANDAY: What bad luck do you refer to Mr Dlamini?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is the tradition according to amaZulu that after killing, one should cleanse oneself using ntelezi to cleanse oneself of the bad luck.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you take his heart and did you eat his heart?

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose you are still leading to that Mr Panday?  We'll allow you.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, after cleansing yourselves from this murder, do you know what happened to the deceased that was left behind?

CHAIRPERSON: No, what was used for the cleansing ceremony? I thought you were going to ask that question.  Well, if you are not, permit me to do so.  What did you use for the cleansing ceremony?  What ingredients did you use for the muti that was to be used for your cleansing?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: ...(no translation)

CHAIRPERSON: There is no translation.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We used some medicine including ntelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you used for your cleansing?
You only used ntelezi, is that all?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Will you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying the only medicine that you used in cleansing yourselves was ntelezi only?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what ingredients were used for brewing this ntelezi?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you explain?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I can explain.  I am the one who brewed this ntelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(no translation)

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I plucked it, I plucked it from the veld.

CHAIRPERSON: You used the ordinary ntelezi?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Panday, I seem to have covered my point.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, after using this medicine to clean yourself, do you know what happened to the victim's body?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I had already removed myself from the scene and I did not go back there.

MR PANDAY: Do you know if anybody else had gone back to the scene?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I do not remember.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, do you recall in the trial that you appeared in, I think it was evidence was led to the effect that the heart was removed and the eyes of the victim were removed, do you know anything of that?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: What I can say is that the eyes were removed during my presence, but I cannot testify as to what happened to the heart.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say that the eyes were removed during your presence?  You have given us evidence and your evidence has never alluded to eyes being removed in  your presence.  At what stage were these eyes removed in your presence?  I want you to give us a logical version of events, we don't have time to be going to and fro, that's why you have counsel who is there to ensure that we have proper evidence, meaning that it must be succinct and it must be properly led in sequence.  Now at what stage were these eyes removed in your presence?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The eyes were removed after we had untied him, that is after he had fallen down.  The eyes were removed from him as he was lying down there, after which we left.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who removed the eyes?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Lucky Ntshetha.

CHAIRPERSON: On his own?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the first thing that he did on the body of the accused after he had fallen down?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that's the only thing he did.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he use to remove the deceased's eyes?  What instrument?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He used a small knife.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were the other people at the time when this removal of the eyes was being conducted by Lucky?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Others were there, all of us were actually there.

MR MALAN: Mr Dlamini, just for your information, we have in our bundle of documents an affidavit by Lucky and on page 11 of the bundle he said that he took out only one of the eyes and someone else took out the other eye.  Do you want to comment on that?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot dispute that but I am saying what I saw happen before my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is your version that what you saw happening was Lucky removing both eyes from the deceased, using a small knife?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you saw no one participating but him in that gruesome act?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot recall seeing any other person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you do anything else other than that?  What else was done to the deceased's body whilst you all were there?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Nothing else happened after that because we all left.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Lucky do with the eyes removed from the deceased's body?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He left them on the scene next to the corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally ask Lucky why he had done that gruesome act?  Did you ask him why he was removing the eyes from the deceased?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I did and he explained to me.

CHAIRPERSON: What explanation did he proffer to you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He said that he is doing this so that in the event of the police coming to take photographs, this should be such that the pictures or shadows, yes pictures of people, should not remain on the person's lenses.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that explanation that was given to you by Lucky?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I was not hearing that for the first time from him.  I was used to hearing such things from other people as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying that was all that was done on the body of the deceased, whilst you were there?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: May I just ask on this score, if you were used to this, having heard from other people as well that the eyes be taken out so as not to show the images or imprints on the lenses, why did you ask Lucky then why he was doing it?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I asked him because it was something that I was quite familiar with.  I kept hearing such a thing from other people to the effect that an image of a person can be imprinted on a person's eyes.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that you asked him to remove the eyes or did you ask him why he had removed the eyes?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I did not ask him to remove the eyes, instead I asked him about this thing that I had heard already.

MR MALAN: Was that before or after he had removed the eyes?  When did you ask him about this imprint on the lenses?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was after everything had been done.

MR MALAN: Thank you.  Mr Panday.