Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR KRUSE: Your evidence is that you lied and your tortured without any orders?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, I did not say that Sir.

MR KRUSE: Yesterday I asked you who gave you orders to torture, you said, you didn't need orders to do it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think I said that.  I think ...

MR KRUSE: Who gave you orders to torture, that is the case?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Lieutenant Liebenberg.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about a general order, or specific orders from time to time?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, these orders would not be for a specific person, go in now and torture that person.  This had also come quite a long while, that is why I said in my evidence yesterday, that senior Officers, I am sure could not have been privy to this.
	This was the order of the day, when interrogating a terrorist, you got your information as soon as possible, by using any methods to your disposal.  And in my case, it was torture.

MR KRUSE: Now, how many people, when you lied in court and people got convicted, in terms of law they were convicted illegally, is that not true because the evidence was obtained illegally if I understand the law correctly?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If I may answer that, I have never tortured a person to make a confession.  The torture that I used was to get weaponry and the rest of the cell of that machinery.
	Once you had the weaponry in a court of law, at the trial, you didn't actually need a confession, because then that person had to explain to the court how he came into possession of this weapons of war.

MR KRUSE: Captain Benzien, I think you are an experienced Investigator.  You know that the torture was only part of a system which I was trying to show yesterday and this is my experience too, that when you are interrogated later by other people, they would use the good boy, bad tactics and whenever someone would not cooperate, you would be standing at the door, is that not true?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not to my knowledge, Sir.

MR KRUSE: You have a very selective memory, but any way, that was the modus operandi of the Security Branch.
	You would be tortured by Jeffery Benzien, Goosen and Liebenberg, from there you are handed to people who are not based in Cape Town, most of the times, there are two people, one would be very harsh, one would be soft.	And from time to time, when you don't cooperate, you will appear at the door, is that true or not?

CHAIRPERSON: That is a statement which you are making.  Is that a statement?

MR KRUSE: I am asking is that the modus operandi.  I am putting it to him whether that is true or not?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir, that is not the modus operandi, but that after the initial interrogation, I concede that the people were passed along to the Investigation Unit who then started documenting the evidence and putting it up for trial.

MR KRUSE: And at the trial within a trial, the onus was put on the State to prove that I was not tortured and the Attorney General decided to withdraw the charges against me from sentence, is that not an indication of if they could have proved torture, that it would be very difficult to get a conviction?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we have to worry about that aspect of the matter really.  The fact of your torture and the torture of others, is being admitted.   What is the purpose of the question?

MR KRUSE: The purpose is I think many people have gone to prison.

CHAIRPERSON: One can understand that, as a result of
(indistinct) evidence?

MR KRUSE: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that.

UNKNOWN: I would like to object to this line of questioning.  It is the Attorney General himself who took the decision.  And it is not my client who made that decision.    The Attorney General should be called to come and explain why he made that decision.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can understand that many people have been convicted as a result of (indistinct) evidence given by the police, who denied that they tortured or exerted force on witnesses to get confessions and admissions.
	I don't think you can necessarily go further along those lines.   We are aware of that.

MR KRUSE: Okay, thank you.  Now, is it also not true and the legal system itself, the fact that you people go around to it, did it not protect you people?
	Were you now aware that the legal system was protecting you?  That you were dealing together with, I am making serious allegations, but I think it is true, that you were dealing with the AG's office and you were working in conjunction with the AG's office and others, during that times?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is correct that we worked with the Attorney General's office and so forth, but even the evidence put to them, and I have the highest respect for our legal system, they were also lied to about certain aspects.

MR KRUSE: So there were no cooperation between you in terms of trying to get convictions, you and the Attorney General's office?  Was there any?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not in a mala fide way, Sir.

MR KRUSE: Do you know Bongani Jonas?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I know Bongani Jonas.

MR KRUSE: Were you part of his arrest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not the immediate arrest of Bongani Jonas.

MR KRUSE: Did you partake in any interrogation of Bongani Jonas?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was at the interrogation of Bongani Jonas, yes.

MR KRUSE: Did you assault him in any way?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No.

MR KRUSE: Are you sure about that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am sure about that, I was in the office when he was assaulted.

MR KRUSE: By whom was he assaulted?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: By a man by the name of Barnard.

MR KRUSE: What was his rank then?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think he was a Sergeant at that stage and part of the then Reaction Unit of the Cape.

MR KRUSE: Where is he based now and what is his rank now?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Bongani Jonas, as far as I can remember is a Colonel ...

MR KRUSE: No, I am sorry, where is this Barnard person?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sergeant Barnard was killed during a house penetration in Vishoek when a hostage situation developed and he was shot to death.

MR KRUSE: Who was with Barnard at the time of the interrogation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think it was only Barnard and myself in the office.

MR KRUSE: Are you suggesting to me that you never partook in the assault on Bongani Jonas, knowing you as a person?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that you jumped up and down on his leg, which he was shot in?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir, those allegations were made, but it was not true.  Barnard did tramp on him.  At that stage and he was never, the wet bag method used on him.
	Bongani Jonas had been wounded at that stage.

MR KRUSE: And you jumped on the wound?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I did not, Your Honour.

MR KRUSE: What about your reputation Jeffery, I mean you were there with Barnard, and you would stand and not assault the man when he was there for the taking?  What happened to your reputation then, didn't you have to live up to it there?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Barnard was doing a sufficiently good job at that stage and didn't need his assistance?

MR KRUSE: He seems to think he has a reputation which he has to live up to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but his reputation didn't depend on that one incident.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember, I noticed yesterday afternoon you wanted to go to the toilet, when we were at Mannenberg police station, when I asked you to go to the toilet.  Do you remember that incident?  It was also put to you at my trial?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not specifically.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember handcuffing my hands behind my back?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not specifically, but in all probability I would have handcuffed your hands behind your back.

MR KRUSE: And put me in the toilet?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am sorry, the finer detail I cannot remember Sir.

MR KRUSE: Can you explain to the Commission my arrest and what happened at the time of my arrest?