Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm not thinking, I was there.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, and you've already also told me that Mr Kondile was not tortured any further after the visit to the Transkei because then he'd given his co-operation.  Do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We did not stop the investigation.

MR BOOYENS: I'm talking about the torture.  Is that correct, he wasn't  tortured any further after that?  Do you agree, you said that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We did not stop the investigation.

MR BOOYENS: Mr ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Now just be careful please, you are being reminded it is said that earlier on you said that after this shooting incident, there was no more torture of Mr Kondile, is that correct? - after the time when this incident took place?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, we cooled off in torturing him.

MR BOOYENS: Well, cooled off, I don't know what cooled off in torture means but I presume that means in more plain English that you stopped torturing him, there was no more torture as the Chairman pointed out to you?  That' really what you're trying to say to us, not so?

MR ROUX: Sorry Mr Chairman, if can interrupt - I apologise to my learned friend, I'm not sure that he testified earlier in fact after they returned from Transkei that the torture had stopped. Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think and he says now that they had cooled off.  The question is, did they continue at some stage?
	When you say: "They cooled off torturing after this shooting incident", was Mr Kondile tortured thereafter?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After the cool off period we needed more details from him.

CHAIRPERSON: You may have needed a lot more details but the question is, was he tortured in order for you to get those details?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We did not stop completely torturing him but we would give him breaks.

ADV DE JAGER: Please explain to me then Mr Danster, why did you tell us you stopped the torture after you went to the Transkei?

GINOTRY DANSTER: This is what I meant by stopping, we did not continue the way - as intensively as we tortured him previously.  A few days would elapse ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please wait for the interpreter.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm sorry if I did not put it that way but what I meant is that a few days would elapse without torturing the man.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR BOOYENS: Well, I think the record will speak for itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR BOOYENS: You see, because according to this the shooting incident in the Transkei occurred as early as the 8th of August and I'm sure that it will be very easy to find the official records of that incident as well and reluctant as I am to believe newspapers, I think they might have got that one right.  Then we have a situation on what you've said earlier on, that for two and a half months Mr Kondile was never tortured again. It's not what you say now I know.  Do you want to explain that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: You are putting words in my mouth, you are talking about things I never uttered.

ADV GCABASHE: In fact Mr Booyens, I was going to say that the two and a half months calculated from the time he got to Jeffrey's Bay which was on the 24th of July and we're here talking about a couple of weeks later ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: Okay.

ADV GCABASHE: Just to give him a ...[intervention}

MR BOOYENS: Let me be - I take your point Commissioner, you're quite right it's two months and not two and a half.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that he also said in his evidence that he was tortured until a few days before he was taken to Komatiepoort.

MR BOOYENS: That's quite correct Mr Chairman.
	You have also heard the remark by the Commissioner, the Honourable Chairman, that earlier on you said he was tortured, now - we've got many stories from you now Mr Danster and perhaps you would like to explain your way out of it.
	We've got a version that says that Mr Kondile was tortured until a few days before he went to Komatiepoort which according to you was middle October, do you recall that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Booyens, are you trying to say that Mr Booyens (Mr Kondile) was never tortured because you're trying to protect your clients?

MR BOOYENS: I was fortunately never tortured, I can assure you.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was there, you were never there and therefore maybe you can answer that question yourselves.

MR BOOYENS: Just answer the question, I'm dealing with what you said.  You heard what the honourable Commissioner ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm not prepared to answer because I have told you that Kondile was tortured.

MR BOOYENS: Are you going to refuse to answer any further questions that I put to you?

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Booyens, I don't think that that is what he is saying, he's obviously getting very irritable and irritated.

MR BOOYENS: If the ...[intervention]

ADV GCABASHE: But if you could assist ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I will answer further questions.

MR BOOYENS: Well, I would ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The record will speak for itself.  Can you just move on now?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Do you want to explain the discrepancies in your evidence that you've heard just now?  Do you want to try and explain them or do you want to leave it at that?

MR ROUX: Sorry Mr Chairman, in all fairness, if it could just be repeated to him because he can't even remember what the discrepancies were.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Danster, maybe it's very confusing for you to sit here with so many legal people, I'm going to try and be of some assistance to you.  We have to determine what the facts are, help us.  The question about the torture of Mr Kondile is a matter of great importance, when it began, how long did it take, when it ended.  These are matters of importance.
	Now, the question about when did the torture of Mr Kondile end, one of the answers you have given is that it ended a few days before - shortly before he was taken to Komatiepoort.  Another answer that you have given was that torture had ended after the incident that had taken place when you had taken him to Umtata and when people had been shot at about that time.  Do you understand that?  
	Those are the versions you have given, there might be another version as well.  You've said about the torture cooled off.  Now I'm affording an opportunity to give me your final answer and take your time about it.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Chairperson, be specific or what is this particular specific question?

CHAIRPERSON: What must we accept as the final answer as to when did that torture end?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Before he went to Komatiepoort.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, can we move on?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Chair.
	Now, insofar as it's relevant - they are not applicants but just to tell you what is being disputed of your evidence, Roelofse and Niewoudt whom I also represent say that they were never involved with Mr Kondile's questioning at all.  You deny that, you don't agree with me?  You were implicated by that also not involved in torture.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Is that you and them telling that?

CHAIRPERSON: He, on behalf of Roelofse and Niewoudt, he is instructed to put to you that their version is that they didn't torture and you ...[indistinct]

GINOTRY DANSTER: They were there.

CHAIRPERSON: They were there?

GINOTRY DANSTER: They were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR BOOYENS: You heard the evidence of Mr du Plessis?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: In fact that's all he admits what he did insofar as torturer or call it what you like, is concerned - goes as far as Mr Kondile is concerned?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I heard him but he didn't tell, he just said that they killed him, they burnt his body, he didn't explain more, he didn't elaborate more about the stages of interrogation.