Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR MBANDAZAYO: We can take the adjournment Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well it will give you a chance to consider your position. We will now take a short adjournment which should be fifteen minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I am grateful for the indulgence, the time. We actually sent out for the firearm. May I place on record that the firearm of Mr Meyers that has been referred to in the evidence is available, is in my possession. It has been checked and made safe Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kulman can you tell the Committee what else did you find in Mike Meyers' car and what did you do about what you found in Mike Meyers' car?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: In his car we found a pistol, sorry a revolver and a .38 and some money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How much did you get in the car?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not get to count it because when we got to the place where we were supposed to take, I do not know how much money there was. What was important to me is to get the weapons for the army.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, we missed something just there. It was because when we got to the place, if you could go back to that. There is a little bit that we missed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Let's get this clear, which place did you get the money, at which place did you get the money?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We found the money in Mbashe.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you get it in the car? Exactly where?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There was a safe in the car between the driver's seat and the passenger seat. There was a trunk there. (The applicant is complaining about his headphones.)

MR LAX: Sorry it is affecting all of us. There is a loose connection somewhere that is causing a crackle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I was asking you exactly where did you get the money in the car?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There was a trunk between the passenger's seat and the driver's seat. Therefore that is where he kept his money. It was in the truck. I think the trunk was welded into the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did Thanduxolo say about the money?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He said that we would account about the money when we get to the destination.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there anything that you have left out? Maybe you have recalled now that you want to say to the Committee that is regarding this incident, what happened during the whole incident of Mike and Donne Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: What I have not mentioned is probably something that I have forgotten.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now my last question to you would be let's forget about your order, whether you went to attack or you kidnap or you take the truck. Let's forget about that you were given an order. Let's come to you personally that as you say that you were an APLA cadre would you have done that? And if yes, what would have been your reason for doing that? Can you tell the Committee?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I could do that. APLA's position is clear. APLA war against whites because we have a belief that the oppressors were the white people. Those were the reasons why I would do it. I would have also killed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's say Mike Meyers and Donne Meyers were not in the government. Let's forget that you say that it was alleged that they are members of AWB whether any other party, let's forget about that. Put it aside. Would you have done that? Taking into account even the age of Donne Meyers. That she was still young, possibly she was still schooling, maybe she did not know anything about politics of the day. Let's assume that, would you have done that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Nothing would have stopped me. I was going to go ahead and do it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What would have been your reason. Let's forget her father, let's say her father well he was killed because okay you wanted the truck, you wanted to take him for interrogation because it is alleged that his farm is used by AWB. Let's talk about the young Donne Meyers that is a kid, would you have done that? Why would you kill her? That is Donne Meyers.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I could have killed her because I do not see a difference in the age difference. I do not see a difference in the age whether a person was young or older, they oppress the same way. There is no difference between a small snake and a big snake, they both poisonous and the snakes deserve, both deserve to be killed. She could not have escaped or had been saved because she was an oppressor. She also had a lot of benefits from the privileges she enjoyed from the previous government. I did not enjoy those benefits as an indigenous person of South Africa. She was the pillar of the government because directly or indirectly she supported the government. Those were the reasons why I would have executed her.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman I would like just for the sake I will ask the applicant whether he recognises this firearm as the one that belonged to Mike Meyers. Can you have a look at this firearm and tell the Committee whether you recognise it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not remember this gun. This is not the one that he carried. This is not the one. That one was shorter than this. The one I had was shorter and the hammer was sharper.

CHAIRPERSON: The one you had? You said: "The one I had was shorter and the hammer was sharper." What are you talking about?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: This is not the weapon that I took or I saw with Mike Meyers. They have changed it. I know that one, I know how it was. They are different revolvers. This is a 357 Magnum. There is another shorter 357 Magnum. I can see with the hammer that one is sharper. Secondly where the witness is pointing there was an emblem, AWB. It was as the witness is pointing. They have changed the gun. This is not the one I know.

MR LAX: Just for the record the witness points to the broad portion of the handle of the firearm, the butt sorry.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

ADV SANDI: Just one thing so that we do not have to come back to it. Mr Kulman should we understand you to say that it did not make any difference to you whatsoever whether or not you had instructions to do this you would have done it, even without orders or instructions from a commander? Is that what you saying?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: If the operation was within the lines of the party and if the party was going to benefit I would have done it without hesitating.

ADV SANDI: Would you have done it without orders or instructions from any one of your superiors within APLA?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: As a commander you have your own prerogatives that you could exercise. You had a right to have initiative as long as the initiative would not be contrary to the policies of the army I had the right to carry out the operation.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA

MR BOTMA: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Kulman you did not testify during the trial in Umtata is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: And during the trial your co-accused Zama Thutha did testify. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: And you have listened to his evidence while he was giving evidence in the Supreme Court, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: Do you say that his evidence there during the trial is correct or what are you saying about his evidence during the trial?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It would be difficult to answer because I did not talk to the judge. He is around I am sure he would answer for himself whether he told the truth or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked what you thought. Do not evade the question, answer it.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I thought, what are you asking me about his evidence? Excuse me are you asking about his evidence whether it was true or not?