Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-28

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.  I will, later on I will take you back to the chair and Commissioners will ask you some questions.
 At this point in time, I will come to Winnie.
Winnie, I would like you to say in your own words what happened on this day.  Maybe if you can just tell us first how old were you, which school were you attending at the time?  If you can just try to remember what happened on that day.

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I used to attend school at Vumbeni. I was in Std 1. We left and went to the cafe. We bought meat at the shop.

MS MKHIZE: Winnie, we won't rush yourself.

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: We bought the meat and left the shop, but just before we arrived home, we met some men who asked us where do we live?  We told them where we lived.  We told them that we're living at 12th - they said, come let's go to the meeting.
 When we arrived at Thokoza, they put us through the windows.  After that they undressed us and they raped us.  After they had raped us, they threw us out of the window and they started shooting at us.
 They started chopping us up with knives and some police came and the police asked us where do we live?  I told them I lived at 12th.  They phoned for an ambulance and the ambulance took me to the hospital.
 When we arrived at the hospital, I couldn't see anything, I had become unconscious.

MS MKHIZE: Winnie, drink some water, Sisi.  If what is in the file is true, you must have been nine years old at that time.  Is that true?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I was 14 years old.

MS MKHIZE: Okay.  What is your date of birth?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I was born in May.

MS MKHIZE: Which year?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: In 1979.

MS MKHIZE: Winnie, you said you were sent to buy meat.  The people who approached you and who invited you to join them in their meeting; how many were they, if you can still remember?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: There were a lot of them.  I cannot remember how many were they.

MS MKHIZE: So when they invited you to a meeting, did you just trust the people you don't know and you went along, especially at the time when there was a lot happening politically?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: They dragged us and pulled us.

MS MKHIZE: So you didn't voluntarily go?  They dragged you and forced you to follow them?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: Yes.

MS MKHIZE: If you remember;  on you arrival at the place where they've taken you, here it says the hostel, did they want you to tell them anything or what did they want from you before they started doing whatever they did?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: They didn't say anything to us.

MS MKHIZE: Winnie, I know how difficult it is to take you back and make your mind to remember that day, but it would help a lot if you can indicate to us as to - you were three;  with whom did they start?  Did they start by shooting, kicking, raping?  Where did they start?  For our record, it's important for you to try and create a picture.

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: They started off by raping us.  After they raped us, they threw us out of the window and they started shooting.

MS MKHIZE: Your own experiences in particular;  do you still remember how many people actually raped you?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: There were lots of them.  It was a huge group of them, I cannot remember, I could not recognise any of them.

MS MKHIZE: While they were raping you, before you lost consciousness;  are there anything they were saying to you, talking?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: No, I didn't hear them saying anything.  I just became unconscious and I couldn't hear anything.

MS MKHIZE: You also mentioned that afterwards they threw you out of the window and the police arrived.  Did the police ask you about what has been happening?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: Yes, they did ask us.  We told them that they had said that there was a meeting here in Thokoza.

MS MKHIZE: Did you communicate to the police that you had been raped?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: No, I didn't explain that to them, because I was becoming blinded, I couldn't see much.

MS MKHIZE: When you were at the hospital, did you tell them about what had happened to you?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I couldn't even talk, so I didn't relate that.

MS MKHIZE: Winnie, since you had this experience, what has happened to you?  What kind of a life have you led?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: Okay. I became unconscious and I couldn't recognise people for a long time.

MS MKHIZE: Now that you are at school, how are you coping?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I'm not able to cope with things.  There's nothing I am feeling.

MS MKHIZE: What standard are you doing now?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I am in Std 3.

MS MKHIZE: At the time when this happened, what standard where you doing?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: I was in Std 1.

MS MKHIZE: (Question not translated ...)

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: When I read, I can't even read books.  I am not able to see properly.

MS MKHIZE: In your school have you ever, or at a local church, been assisted by getting counselling or having an adult talking to you about what happened?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: No, nobody has helped me or told me anything.

MS MKHIZE: Winnie, thank you very much.  I will hand you over back to the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce.

MS SEROKE: Winnie, at the time when they told you to go to a meeting, what sort of a meeting was that?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: We did ask them.  They told us, come, you will see what's going to happen there.

MS SEROKE: When they led you to the hostel and at that time you knew how dangerous the hostel was, because of what was happening in the township, were you not suspicious that you were being led into this hostel or where you moved, pulled by force?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: They dragged us and pulled us inside the hostel.

MS SEROKE: And you say one of your friends, Santie, was released.  Why was she released and you guys were taken in?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: She managed to escape, to run away.

MS SEROKE: And you also say in your statement;  when you got into the hall, you found that it was full of men and women.  Now, what did the women do when you were gang-raped by these men?  What did the women in that group, in that crowd - did they try to save you or did they just watched you being gang-raped?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: These women started applauding and they were very happy when they saw this happening to us.

MS SEROKE: Did you at any time try to beg them to help you and asked for their protection, your protection?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: They slapped us when we tried to plead to them to help us, they started slapping us and beating us up.

MS SEROKE: And you say in your statement you were hacked and you were shot at.  What did they use to hack you?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: There were huge bush knives that they were using to chop us.

MS SEROKE: When these men were raping, were they saying things whilst they were doing this or telling you why they were doing this or abusing you?

WINNIE MAKHUBELA: No, they didn't say anything.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Mahlophe, my next question is addressed to you.  You say that what happened to the girls caused trouble in the township between the hostel-dwellers and the residents.

ELLA GLORIA MAHLOPHE: Yes, since these hostel-people started killing these children and that was in Thokoza and Twala.  Then the fight started between these two communities.
 There were these people trying to defend us now from this hostel and when we went to bury these children, there was police who were guiding us, and since that there was a huge violence that erupted.  That's when the violence was heightened in the township during that time.

MS SEROKE: Was there a post-mortem for Tembe and Molly who died in the process?

ELLA GLORIA MAHLOPHE: Yes, there was a post-mortem, because they were found with lots of wounds and they had been stabbed all over their bodies.

MS SEROKE: Did you get the report of the post-mortem?

ELLA GLORIA MAHLOPHE: Yes, it was sent, it was shown that they had been shot in the stomach.  They were found with bullets in their stomach.