Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR KUNY: Mr Chairman, may I ask that the fan in front of me, be removed, it is obstructing my view of the witness and Mr Chairperson, may I just say that I understand the difficulty which the Commission faces, there is a wealth of evidence and witnesses to hear, and I will endeavour to only deal with relevant and pertinent evidence of the witness, but I must be, this witness must be given a change to give her evidence from her own mouth.  I don't want to in the first instance it to be suggested that I am putting evidence in her mouth and not giving her an opportunity to give her own version of events, and secondly I don't want it said at a later stage that she never said those things and she is only coming out with them now.
 So it is important that the allegations made, you will appreciate, are very serious and it is important that this witness have an opportunity to give her evidence freely.
 May I continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one tiny thing.  Our technician is asking that you don't speak too close to the microphone because it then explodes, especially if you've got a voice like mine.

MR KUNY: We dealt with the allegation that Stompie Sepei was an informer.  Was on this occasion when Stompie was brought to Mrs Mandela's house, was the allegations regarding sexual interference of the boys, was that mentioned on this occasion?

MS FALATI: The purpose of taking the comrades to Mrs Mandela's place was not the issue of Stompie being an informer, but the purpose of being the victims of sexual abuse.  That was the purpose of taking them from the mission to Mrs Mandela's place.  But then the testimony, I had to give a testimony one by one to Mrs Mandela, actually asked me to do it.

MR KUNY: Were assaults perpetrated on this occasion on these boys that were brought from the manse?  What happened after this testimony was given?

MS FALATI: She actually started to hit Kenny, she said Kenny must stand up.  And then he asked questions why are you submitting to a white man?  Then she started to hit Kenny and saying that you are not fit to live.  Fit to be alive, then she started hitting them.  Hitting Kenny with the right fist.  That is why Kenny had this blue eye.

MR KUNY: What happened after that?

MS FALATI: She hit the others, she hit Kenny and then when Kenny tried to block the fist, then the other comrades at Mandela's place, that is the Football Club, held Kenny on both hands so that he couldn't block from the fists of Mrs Mandela.

MR KUNY: Did you participate in the assaults on ...

MS FALATI: So after that the hell broke out, they were beaten.  I never participated.  I was ordered by Mrs Mandela to go and sing.  After singing, because everybody was just beating and beating and then actually singing because I was a bit scared and puzzled, are these supposed victims?  Are these the ones who are supposed to be beaten, because those were victims of sexual abuse.
 They were supposed to be victims of sexual abuse, not to be assaulted but to be kept until Father Paul Verryn comes wherever he had gone to.  Now, I was so surprised.  She actually saw that I was puzzled and a bit scared, then she said to me go outside and sing.  I was ordered to sing so as to drown the voices of those who were crying for help and mercy.

MR KUNY: Did you see what the condition of the boys were after they had suffered these assaults?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KUNY: And what was their condition?

MS FALATI: When Stompie was assaulted, he fainted, then the boys went out, the comrades from Mrs Mandela's place, they went out to fetch a bucket of water.  They poured the water on Stompie's body, then he woke up and tried to run away.  They caught him.

MR KUNY: Did you stay at Winnie Mandela's house that evening?

MS FALATI: No, I didn't stay at Mrs Winnie Mandela's home that evening, I was taken with John Morgan, my daughter and Katiza Cebekhulu were taken back to the mission and the kombi slept in Father Paul Verryn's garage in the mission and we slept there.  There was only one person who found there, it was Aubrey and all the boys were gone.

MR KUNY: What date, according to you, did these assaults take place on?

MS FALATI: That was on the 28th.  Not the 29th, that was a cover up of, that was made to cover up everything, changing of days, making zigzags so to confuse other people.  It was on the 28th.  You can even go to the airport and check with the airport and check to the Victor Verster and see if Mrs Mandela was not there on the 28th.
 I am trying to elaborate so as to get the facts straight.

MR KUNY: Are you sure about this?

MS FALATI: Yes, I am sure about this.  This is why I am saying you can go to the airport and go to Victor Verster and see if she hadn't been there on the 28th.  That was the date, the 28th, not the fabrication which was taken by the police to cover up some of the things.

MR KUNY: And when was the next time that you saw Stompie and the other boys?

MS FALATI: The following day, that was on the 29th because I went back.  I came back with John Morgan, Katiza and my daughter.  Then we found Stompie and the others, they were cleaning.  Stompie was on top of a twenty five litre green tin.  He was sitting there and the other boys were cleaning the windows.
 Then I went there the following day on the 30th.  Stompie was sitting on a jacuzzi, with one leg inside and the other one crossed.

MR KUNY: What was his condition at that stage?

MS FALATI: He was swollen here and at that time he was swollen, he was hit by Katiza, I had been it.  Just after everything, after he was assaulted, after everything, when everybody, because after the assaults Mrs Mandela said they must clean up the blood.
 So as they were cleaning the blood, Stompie was put in a bath full of water, naked.  So Katiza hit him here on top of the head so that was this hitting that made him to swell.

MR KUNY: Were you told about that assault, or did you witness it yourself?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR KUNY: Were you told about that assault or did you witness it yourself?

MS FALATI: No, I was there.  Mrs Mandela was there, Katiza was there, my daughter was there, Nonyanya was there.  Jerry Richardson was there, Killer was there.  Thabo was there.  The person who was detained with us who was not there, that was this Mabalani, they were not there, but these others were there and some of MK Branch of Orlando West.

MR KUNY: Do you know, or were you present or have you got any knowledge as to whether Dr Asvat visited Mrs Mandela's home after the assault and whether he saw Stompie and the other boys?

MS FALATI: That was on the 30th, when I went there.  I went there to Mrs Mandela on the 30th, after taking my clothes to Mzimhlope and then I went to - I had to change the (indistinct), change to (indistinct).  So I went there at Mrs Mandela's place.
 I found Dr Asvat, that was Dr Asvat and Gogo.

MR KUNY: Who is Gogo?

MS FALATI: And Mrs Mandela.  That is the housekeeper, Mrs Mandela's housekeeper.  Mrs Mandela was there, but she was in the bedroom.

MR KUNY: Do you know whether there was any disagreement between Dr Asvat and Mrs Mandela about Stompie, the assaults that had taken place and the condition of Stompie?

MS FALATI: Dr Asvat was inside the house, and I was in the kitchen.  Inside the right inside, that is the living room with Mrs Mandela.

MR KUNY: Was there any argument or disagreement between them about the situation?

MS FALATI: Up to that point I do not know, because when he came out, I was outside with Gogo, then he left and after leaving I said to Gogo, why is it Dr Asvat is not bidding goodbye, because he had greeted us when he came.  Now Gogo said no, don't you know that that is their religion, so we thought it was the difference of religion.

MR KUNY: You were tried for the assault and kidnapping of Stompie Sepei with others?

MS FALATI: I beg your pardon?