Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

MR SANDI: Do you think these three old men have any particular reasons to implicate you in these matters ?
MR CARD?: I've, I've no idea, Mr Chairman, all I can say that is that there's a mistaken
identity.  It's not Donald Card?.  They mention the name Donald Card?.  Mr Chairman, I can bring up books, all sorts of things.  If you want to you can have a look at, at Sichaba, who mentions me way back.  These comrades against apartheid.  You'll see that my name is mentioned in here as the person who in fact, created a lot of problems for the ANC in their early days, because of my involvement.  It's on Page 37.  There are a lot of people that wrote about me and have spoken about me over the, over the period of time and know my name.  I was the Mayor of East London.  I got the Freedom of the City of East London.  I've been in the eyes of a lot of people for a long time.  Yes, I've fought against the sabotage laws, at least I've fought against people in bringing people to justice at one stage, and I was mentioned by a lot of people.   These gentlemen could believe at this stage that they heard my name and that I must be the person, but I'm telling you, I'm not the person, Mr Chairman.  I was definitely not here, and the Lord knows that as well.

MR SANDI: Before we proceed to the next question, can I ask, should we assume it to be a matter of mere coincidence that you have quite a number of people who mistake your identity.  They implicate you in things you've not been involved in.  Is it just a coincidence ?
MR CARD?: I can't answer.  Mr Chairman, I wouldn't mind that this Commission could answer me on that one, cause really, I don't know why they've done it.  I can mention that I did speak to a member of the PAC who was in custody with them on Robben Island and he told me that they had mentioned that a Mr Stoltz was the chap who assaulted them.  Now there is a Stoltz.   He's  a retired policeman  and he was here at one
stage and he's at Port Alfred.  I don't know whether that story is correct but that is what I
was told by a member of the PAC who was in custody with them.

MR SANDI: Thank you,  Mr Chairman.  I  will  stop for a  moment,  maybe  I will come
back for further questions.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Maya.

MS MAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Card?, I only have one question for you.  Was there another policeman by your name  in the Police Force at that time, possibly based in the same area ?
MR CARD?: No.

MS MAYA: In fact that could have resulted in this mistaken identity ?
MR CARD?: No.  I did have a son in the police force who was also a D. Card?, but he only came, he joined the police force many, many years afterwards.  Not at that time at all.

MS MAYA: Do you have any idea at all what could have resulted in this mistaken identity ?
MR CARD?: If ?

MS MAYA: Do you have idea at all what could have caused this mistaken identity, as you call it ?
MR CARD?: I have no idea, Mr Chairman.  I also want to say that I find it very funny that if people were put in straight-jackets and thrown into the Buffalo River, as was alleged and that they were shot at, that when the case came to court, that no mention was made and there was never a case, because if there was a case and I was a suspect, I would have been approached and I would have been warned in terms of the Judge's rules.
Nothing like that has ever taken place, so it's the first time that it's now been brought out and  I  cannot understand  why, because I want to say that although there were probably a
lot of injustices in the 1960's and '70's there was one organisation which was above any  political issues and that was the Magistrates and the Judges in the courts and if anybody had laid a complaint at that stage and if anybody was shot during interrogation or anybody put in a straight-jacket and thrown into the river, surely to goodness, when they came to court on that occasion, the matter would have been dealt with and I find that one of the reasons I'm giving you now, was something strange from  my side.  Why wasn't that done ?

MS MAYA: Thank you, Mr Card?.

CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I just want to know first from Mr Card? whether he would in fact remember the faces of all the persons who went through his hands in terms of investigation and interrogation.
MR CARD?: No, Mr Chairman, I won't remember many of them but I do in fact even to-day remember a lot of the people that I dealt with at that time.  I had an ability to identify and remember.  Unfortunately, that the memory side is a little bit faded, even names now, faces still don't, are not a problem but names have become almost impossible.  I sometimes, I see a face and I think who is that and 10 minutes after that I'll remember who that person is but really my memory isn't so good anymore and I wouldn't remember most faces.

REV XUNDU: You realize that probably because of age, these gentlemen who were here, have also changed a lot, in terms of their features and probably the flesh on their faces, so it would be hard really to try and remember who they were.
MR CARD?: Mr  Chairman,  I can,  I grew  up in Transkei  and  I'm not a, I  have  no problems  with faces, whether they're white, black, brown or any other colour  and I want
to tell you that if I had seen those 2 gentlemen that were here to-day, even though it's 34 years ago, I would remember them.

REV XUNDU: I just want to ask another question.  Question is, was it common practice for police to rough up prisoners in order to get information from them during the course of your ... (interrupted)
MR CARD?: There were cases, yes, there were definitely cases like that, but it depended of course what they were questioning them for.  I mean I dealt with people that, a large number of people and there were those, some of those who later, obviously for their own reasons, said that they were assaulted when they weren't assaulted and obviously they do it for a reason because some of them talk to the police immediately and they have to go back and tell the story that they have, that they have spoken and in fact that they, and in fact that they, it was forced out of them.  Many, many people.  I can tell you many people that I dealt with were never touched.  Mr Chairman, can I just tell one story, just to help you on that issue.  In  1963, the 8th of April there were a crowd of PAC chaps who were going to attack East London and I went in amongst them and the leader of that, that group was Washington Siklese and I sat and watched him dividing the people into groups to go and attack police stations and I sat watching and I gave evidence before the court.  He got 25 years imprisonment.  Mr Chairman, he later came up.  I went and saw him on Robben Island and he came to Grahamstown to give evidence and most, a lot of the people were allowed to go, move as they liked.  They were wearing prison garb.  They were serving terms of imprisonment.  Siklese served 25 years imprisonment and because  the others  were walking  around, he  said to  me,  Mr Card, won't  you give  me
1 night out in the Grahamstown township and I said to him, I can't do that and he begged 
me.  Finally, Mr Chairman, I said to him, OK, you can go.  Oh he said to me, you can trust me Mr Card?.  That was the leader of the PAC in East London and Mr Chairman, I allowed him to go to the Township for the night.  He took off his prison garb, put on clothes and he went off and he came back.  Now I just want to say, if he is the leader of the PAC, I could do that to him,  isn't there a problem with what's happening to-day ?