Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-10

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about concerted, I am talking about exclusively?  In other words only PAC members' houses were attacked?

MS GOSO: Those are the instructions that I have.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I want to know, whether that is what you are putting?

MS GOSO: Yes, that is what I am putting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Now, when you were Treasurer in your Branch, how many members did the Organisation have?

VUYISILE MKETSU: We used to appoint the Branch, we used to hold election when we had 50 members.  We never have elections if we had something less than 50.  That was the policy.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the question.  Please answer the question.  When you were the Treasurer, how many members were there in your Branch?  If you can answer the question, please tell us.

VUYISILE MKETSU: I had 50 members.

MS GOSO: Exactly 50 and this was in 1996?

VUYISILE MKETSU: In 1996 there were 50 members, there were 50 members.  The number was 50.

MS GOSO: How do you remember that?

VUYISILE MKETSU: I remember that.

MS GOSO: What makes you remember that?

VUYISILE MKETSU: We wouldn't have elections if we don't have 50 people, if we didn't have 50 people, we wouldn't have elections.

MS GOSO: You are ...

CHAIRPERSON: You are not very helpful.  It is not how many members you have to have before you have elections.  The question is did you not have more than 50 members, or is it just 50 members?

VUYISILE MKETSU: Those that I noticed in 1996, 50 members, it is only 50 members that we had.

MS GOSO: There maybe others which you do not remember, isn't it?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you answer a question like that?  There may be others, but you haven't mentioned any names, so how would he know if there were others?  He has just mentioned the number.

MS GOSO: He has mentioned in his reply, I don't know because I have not been listening to the translation, but in Xhosa, what he was saying was that he only remembers 50 and my question followed as a result of his response to an otherwise simple question of how many members were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there not more than 50 members in 1996?

VUYISILE MKETSU: I can't be so sure about that, but the only thing that I know is that the number had reached 50.
	There were not less than 50, that I am sure about.

MS GOSO: Do you have a good recollection who those members were?

VUYISILE MKETSU: No.  I cannot recall but I used to know them, because I was staying with them at Crossroads.

MS GOSO: Mr Mketsu, I don't think you are really doing justice to my question.  I want to know if you, out of the 50 members that you know that were there, you have a good recollection of who they were?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to know whether he knows the name of the 50 people, is that what you are asking?

MS GOSO: Yes Mr Chairman, in order to be able to say X couldn't have been amongst that 50.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's ask him, do you know the names of all the 50 people, or did you just know them by sight?

VUYISILE MKETSU: I used to know them by sight.  I knew their names also by seeing them.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this relevant, because this is talking about 1996?

MS GOSO: That was a mistake.  I want to put the same question in relation to 1993, that was a slip on my part.  I aimed at 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him that.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  How many members did your Branch have in 1993?

VUYISILE MKETSU: In 1993 my Branch had 50 members.

MS GOSO: So, Mr Mketsu, this membership was not growing.  In 1993 the members were 50, 1994, 1995, even in 1996, the number of the membership was 50?  Is that correct?

VUYISILE MKETSU: The number was growing, but I can't tell you now how many members were there, but there were above 50.  The only thing that I noticed was that the number had reached 50.  That is the only thing I could notice.

MS GOSO: In 1993 in particular, it could have been more?

VUYISILE MKETSU: That might be the case, but all I know is that all that was on my mind was that at least we had 50 members, and if we had 50 members, at the end of the year we change them.
	We wouldn't change the members if we didn't have 50.

MS GOSO: And amongst these members, who could have added up to this 50 - these are people that you have no independent recollection of who they were, isn't it?

DR TSOTSI: Ms Goso, do you want to know really who, whether so and so was there as a member.  Why don't you go straight to it?

MS GOSO: Mr Mketsu, you have said that Mr Maduna was not a member in 1993.  If you did not have an independent recollection of all the members, how can you be sure that he was not?

VUYISILE MKETSU: What made me to be sure of that is because today it is the first time that I hear that name here.  I used to take note of people's names and I knew their faces also.
	I can even tell you that that was so and so.  The people, all the people who were in my Branch.

MS GOSO: Finally ...

DR TSOTSI: Have you seen Mr Maduna today, the man called Mr Maduna?  Is he here?

VUYISILE MKETSU: I won't tell anything about Mr Maduna.

DR TSOTSI: Well, you might know him by another name.  Can he stand up?  Is he here?  Do you know that man?

VUYISILE MKETSU: This is my first time to see that face.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS GOSO: Finally Mr Mketsu, I just want to ask one question, were you told in whose matter you were going to come and testify here today?

VUYISILE MKETSU: No.  I was not told about Maduna's application, but I got a message from a child that I am being requested to come to the Truth Commission.  It is a child who brought that message to me.

MS GOSO: Finally and in conclusion, I want to put it to you that not only do you have an independent recollection whether Mr Maduna was a member or not, but also you are also a disgruntled ex-member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: That is argument, isn't it?  That is hardly evidence?

MS GOSO: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I say that is argument, that is not evidence.  You can make that submission when the time comes.

MS GOSO: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what you are really trying to say is Mr Maduna, I am sorry the evidence you are giving here today is because you are disgruntled with the PAC and you are giving evidence against it.  That is what you are trying to say, isn't it?

MS GOSO: Yes, if I can put that to him and get what his response is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You see, it is being put to you that you are not impartial, you are giving evidence because you are unhappy, you are disgruntled with the PAC and that is the only reason why you are giving the evidence you give.
	That is what Counsel is trying to put to you.  Have you anything to say about that?

VUYISILE MKETSU: I can't even comment on Mr Maduna's case.  I don't know Maduna.  I don't even know that name, it is for the very first time that I hear about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Anything else?

MS GOSO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to ask?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fortuin, any re-examination?

MR FORTUIN: None at all.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions?  Yes, thank you very much, you are excused from further attendance.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any further witnesses?

MR FORTUIN: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses?

MR MAPOMA: No sir, there is no further evidence.