Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: It was not at the school but some distance away from the school.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that, a long distance or as far as from here to the road in front?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: It would be a distance from here to the Pinetown bus rank.

MR DEHAL: If I were to - sorry, I don't know where the Pinetown bus rank is, but if I were to ask you if that would be about two kilometres, would you agree, or would that be less than that?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Unfortunately I cannot estimate that distance in kilometres, but I can estimate that it would be from this place to the bus rank.

MR DEHAL: Just to help us, if you had to walk from here to - sorry, between Power School and the spot where your brother was killed, not at a very speedy walk, not very slow but at a gentle walk, how many minutes would that take you about?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: About 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you'd like to make enquiries during the course of the adjournment, you can tell us tomorrow morning.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
	Mr Mbukazi, you said your brother was still at school at the time, what standard was he in?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: He was doing standard nine.

MR DEHAL: So he was 21 years old and still in standard nine?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: And the school that you speak of Mganiwaki School, was this in the IFP area or the ANC area?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: It was in the ANC area.

MR DEHAL: I saw you seated in this forum, in this Court room at the back there whilst the applicant was testifying, you heard his testimony, didn't you?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I cannot say because I was not here when he started.

MR DEHAL: The applicant said - I don't know if you heard this, the applicant said that the deceased was not at school and certainly not at this school, Mganiwaki School, because any person who was IFP was removed from the ANC area and not allowed to school in that school.  Did you hear that?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I bear knowledge about my brother.  When this violence started between the ANC and the IFP, my brother was forced to leave school, but as far as we know he was still a pupil in 1991.

MR DEHAL: What were you doing at the time your brother died, were you at school, were you working, were you unemployed?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I was around home, I was at a neighbour's home on that day because it was during the festive season.

MR DEHAL: Yes, I know it would have been a holiday, but were you employed at the time, unemployed or a scholar?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I was employed.

MR DEHAL: I notice from your wife's statement that your mother and father are now late, were they alive at the time, were they at home?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: My mother was already late at that time but my father was still alive.

MR DEHAL: Do you know Alzina Luthuli?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: How was she associated or related to your brother at the time of his death?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: They were in love and they had a child together.

MR DEHAL: Do you recall at what time this death took place, was it in the morning at about 7 o'clock, or much later?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I last saw him in the morning at around half past seven to eight.

MR DEHAL: Do you recall where he was heading to when you saw him then? - if anywhere.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: At that time he was accompanying Alzina to the market, that's where he came across these criminals who killed him.

MR DEHAL: Would the market have been open on the first, a holiday, the 1st of January?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: That was the busiest time at the market.

MR DEHAL: And would the market have been in the vicinity of Power School?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: No, it is a distance from that school.

MR DEHAL: Just for me to understand this, would your brother and Alzina have gone past Power School to get to the market, or would they not even have reached Power School with the market being before it, from your home?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: From what my brother told me, they went past Power School right up to Mr Mtjali's home.  That is when they met up with these people who called him by this derogatory word, referring to the IFP.  That was when they had this fight and he was stabbed after which he fled and he lost consciousness at a sports ground and we picked him up from there and he died on his way to hospital.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When did he tell you this, that he met them on his way to the market?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: We picked him up from that spot because I had received a report that he had been injured, so I asked somebody to transport him to Scottburgh.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well at that stage when you picked him up, was he conscious?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, because he was able to tell us what had happened.  That is, he had met these three men on his way when he accompanied his girlfriend, and as he put it, the Msomi boy had held him whilst Mr Ngubane and Mr Mbambo stabbed him.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you arrive - or the first question should be, is Ketangani Mbukazi your father?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you arrive with your father at the same time at the sports ground?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, there was also somebody from the Mbambo family, but I was not able to go with them because I had to return home.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 14 your father says - paragraph number 5, that your brother was unable to speak, what do you say about that?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I would not be in a position to dispute that because on this particular day he was also not sober.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who wasn't sober?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: My father, because we had been celebrating the previous evening.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
	You say you would not be able to dispute what your father said, namely that your brother was unable to speak.  Do I understand that correctly?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I would dispute it because when I arrived he could still speak.

MR DEHAL: So why - sorry, your father says your brother, the deceased, was unable to speak, that is on the ground when your father had approached him and you agreed that your father and you approached your deceased brother at about the same time, now if your father says he was unable to speak and you say you spoke to him, why are there these different versions?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Well I arrived first with a Mr Mbambo who had supplied us with transport and at that time my brother could still speak.  He died on his way to the hospital.

MR DEHAL: So are you saying that at the time your father arrived, you agree that the deceased was not able to speak?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I am not in a position to dispute that, but all I'm saying is that he was not sober.

MR DEHAL: Yes, you see I don't know why you go on adding "he was not sober", meaning your father was not sober, unless you want to say that he was mistaken and that what he is saying here is incorrect, but you are not saying that either.  Now you see when the Committee asked you questions, Mr Sibanyoni asked you "Is it correct that ..." - sorry, he asked you whether you and your father arrived at the scene together and you said "Yes", then he said to you
"Look at page 14 where your father says your brother was unable to speak, your deceased brother, and yet you say he spoke, how do you explain that?"
You then said -
"Oh, he was under the influence".
Do you remember that question?