Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-15

MR KHUZWAYO: I do not have knowledge thereof.  I would also like to explain that we had not gone there to dispossess someone or to steal something, but our objective was to go and just carry out the attack, kill those people and return back.

UNKNOWN: Have you taken part in any other attacks, besides this one?

MR KHUZWAYO: I had protected the eMankwanyane area on many instances when we were under attack from the IFP and I also assisted the community in destabilising our opponents.

UNKNOWN: I refer you to page 24 of the bundle, point number 10 (b).  You say that you robbed cars with the intention of helping your community.  Would you like to expand on that please?  How did you rob cars?

MR KHUZWAYO: I will say that I've never robbed a car.  I was arrested in possession of a car that I used to transport weapons from Mozambique to Vuchini.  My intention was to deliver those at Vuchini because the people there were also under attack.  On my arrest I discovered that that car had been hijacked but I did not have prior knowledge of that.

UNKNOWN: How did you come about being the driver of a hijacked motor vehicle that you didn't hijack?

MR KHUZWAYO: I did not question it when Shadrack gave me a vehicle to take to Mozambique and I would do so as he instructed.  On my arrival to Mozambique, I will give that car to Steven Nkenyene and he will return the car with the firearms inside and I would drive the car back into South Africa, therefore I had no reason to suspect that the car was hijacked or stolen, it was the people I worked with who had knowledge of where the car came from, I did not.

UNKNOWN: So your motivation here was, you did not rob cars for personal gain, but as part of your political drive to get finance, to finance your cause, is that correct?

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Loonat I didn't understand that he said that he robbed cars, he said cars were robbed, but he did not know that they were robbed, he didn't question it, Shadrack gave the car ...(indistinct - mike not on).  Can you just clarify that?

UNKNOWN: It's just that on page 24 he wrote that
"We robbed the cars with the intention of helping our community"
and I was just clarifying that point, that it wasn't him that robbed the cars,  he was given the motor vehicles which he used to transport firearms.  Yes, but it was not for his personal gain.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, just carry on.

UNKNOWN: Is there anything else that you would like to tell the Committee, Mr Khuzwayo?

MR KHUZWAYO: The weapons that I brought back did not assist only my area but they also went to other neighbouring areas, therefore several communities in KwaZulu Natal were assisted and helped by those firearms.  Shadrack was the person aware of where the firearms were needed and the amount that was brought to each specific area.

UNKNOWN: The victims families are present today.  Do you have anything to say to them?

MR KHUZWAYO: To the family of the deceased, I would express remorse because I did not have a personal grudge with the deceased, but it was the situation that led me into the incident.  That is the reason why I applied for amnesty, because it troubles me that after this act, the family of the deceased is still suffering because of it.  So if they can find it in their hearts to forgive me, I beg them to do so.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am.  We'll adjourn for lunch and reconvene at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

KETHA MPILO KHUZWAYO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal, any questions?

MS JELAL: Yes, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

MS JELAL: Sir, I'm going to focus on page 24 of the bundle, at paragraph 10(b).  Okay.  You say that
"We robbed the cars with the intention of helping our community.  We used the money to assist us when we were in trouble."
What type of trouble were you looking at and what exactly did you use the monies for?

MR KHUZWAYO: As I've already mentioned before, is that Shadrack had more knowledge on cars, what I was responsible to do was to just take the car from Shadrack and do whatever I was supposed to do.  I only discovered later that maybe or it might happen that some of the cars which I used to drive and take them somewhere, they were used because Shadrack had robbed them, but I was not told.

MS JELAL: So are we then to believe that you've never hijacked a vehicle?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes.

MS JELAL: Sir I refer you to page 7 of the supplementary affidavit bundle, paragraph 14.  Therein you state
"I further state that I was instructed to hijack vehicles to send to Mozambique in exchange for ammunition, firearms, camouflage uniforms, etc. for our cause."
To my interpretation you were instructed to hijack the vehicles and you did hijack the vehicles, is that correct, or what did you try to say in this particular paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this a typed version of a written document?

MS JELAL: Yes, it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Who can tell us what this is?  What is the status of this document?

MR MAPOMA: It's the typed version of the handwritten statement.

CHAIRPERSON: On what page is the handwritten one, Mr Mapoma?

UNKNOWN: It's page 3, Chairperson, number 14 of Exhibit A, handwritten one, point number 1.4.14.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.  So this is a typed version of Exhibit A.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MS JELAL: So could you please give us an interpretation on that line 14?

MR KHUZWAYO: I will put it this way, as I've already explained, Shadrack was the one who was giving me cars to go to Mozambique and once I arrived there they would supply me with arms and then I would drive the car back to Shadrack.  Shadrack was responsible in distributing the arms to various communities because he was the one who knew which communities needed weapons, but I was not personally hijacking, but I suspect that there were others who were hijacking cars, but I have no knowledge of.

MS JELAL: So then did you personally write out this affidavit?

MR KHUZWAYO: I will put it this way.  It's probably the person who was assisting me whom I was explaining this to him, wrote it down like that, but what I was explaining to him was that when I was arrested I learned that the car I was driving was robbed from someone else, but I didn't have this knowledge prior to my arrest.

MS JELAL: So if we look at page 56 of the bundle, looking specifically at line 30, do you know who was responsible for pushing the deceased's vehicle away from the scene of the crime?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MS JELAL: So in giving your evidence initially you said that members on the list were responsible for killing women and children indiscriminately.  Did you know if Sibiya and Mthembu were also participants in killing these women and children?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, they were responsible.

MS JELAL: Where did you get this information?

MR KHUZWAYO: Shadrack was one person who was always in that area.  He's the one who used to supply us with the names even though above that we had knowledge of other people who were responsible and the fact that they were at that party involved in that area.

MS JELAL: So in your statement initially, you said that Sibiya was the person who shot first and you also went on to say that you shot back.  Why did you not put all of this into your supplementary affidavit?  Why is it that this is the first time we're hearing of that?

MR KHUZWAYO: I told this even to my attorney, now if you're telling me it's not in my supplementary statement, then I don't know.

MS JELAL: Yes, I am saying so because if we look at page 11 of the handwritten affidavit in the supplementary bundle, paragraph 11, all you say is that
"I then noticed Sibiya with the pistol.  I gave chase.  He dropped his pistol.  I retrieved it.  he escaped."
I mean that's rather vague and the other points are important.  Did you just forget about it or thought it was not necessary to put it in?