Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: But I do recall that there was a certain lady with regards to Mr Gumede's incident but I could not see, identify her face.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just for clarity to your good self, that lady's name is Nosipho Gumede, the wife of the deceased, the alleged taxi owner.  Just to clarify for you.  Do you remember you testified on this incident to the effect that when you arrived on the scene you told Milton and others who were in the kombi that you were hurrying to Ngwelesane, to Ndusuma, do you remember that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you told by anybody that when you arrive there you must make mention of the name Ndusuma, the place called Ndusuma?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, nobody had told me because Msimbi had already indicated that this was not the person we were looking for.  I was just whiling away time because I did not wish for this person to be injured.  I even asked the older boy to ask the younger one to be quiet because I did not want them to be injured.  I was just waiting for that time when the person would arrive.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To be more direct with you, there has been allegations to the effect that Nosipho, the lady you have just seen, comes from Ndusuma and the allegations are that she was colluding with you, what would you say to that?  She knew about this incident.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is not true, she did not know anything about it.  I don't even know her.  If I knew her I would have admitted that I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that your target was the taxi owner, the deceased, but you testified to the effect that Milton the brother to the deceased was shot on the leg as well as on the hand, do you remember that, or the arm?  Milton is sitting right at the back there.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I hear for the first time just where exactly he was shot.  He got off the car with somebody else and as he was knocking on the door and somebody was trying to open, this person saw that there was a lot of people and they closed the door and then Tini started shooting. If he remembers correctly he would know that I am speaking the truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be correct, Mr Gwamanda, if I put it to you that this young man, Milton, was shot by mistake?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The brother to the taxi owner?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It was Ntini Ndongweni's mistake because Milton was not the target.  If he remembers correctly I was standing next to him, next to the wall and I turned around and that is the person who was driving the car but he was not our target, our target was the taxi owner because I did not even know the taxi owner and I did not even know the person who was shot.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally, I'm asked by the victims in this matter, the Gumede family in the taxi incident, to put it to you or to inform you that the manner in which you've related this incident is exactly as it was and to tell you that you are telling the truth.
	That is all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I appreciate that because what I've said here is the truth as I know it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mchunu, do you have any re-examination?

MR MCHUNU: Just two questions, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwamanda, during cross-examination by Mr Falconer, he put it to you that what you were doing was for a reward, that is the planned assassination on Matthew Phosa.  Were you doing it or were you going to do it for the purposes of getting that rewards or was it only for the purposes, or was it only to fulfil a mission which was already set up in that association which you had with the AWB?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would have done it because of the instructions that we had received.  Had I not, or had I opposed those instructions it would have been easy for them to kill me.
	Even if I had shot Mr Phosa I would have still submitted an application for amnesty with regards to it.  It is something I would not have concealed.  I would have submitted that application for amnesty because I did not have a personal grudge against Mr Phosa.  But because I had agreed and had started working with these people I had to and that is why I had to do that.

MR MCHUNU: I understand that you were still going to obtain instructions to assassinate Mr Matthew Phosa, did you at the time when you were still approaching the area or the place where you were going to assassinate Mr Matthew Phosa have any other instructions apart from those which you were still to obtain at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the thrust of the question was, while you were on your way to Nelspruit, did you have any other instructions other than that you were going there to shoot Mr Phosa, any detail?
	Is that the thrust of your question, Mr Mchunu?

MR MCHUNU: Yes, that's correct.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: As I explained before there was no further details on how I was supposed to carry out the mission.  I was still awaiting instructions from their discussion as to how we were going to proceed.
	At that time we had just received instructions that we were going to kill Matthew Phosa and after that we would receive something.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MCHUNU

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mchunu.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Gwamanda, you told us about the R300 and the R400 which you were given by Mfayela.  Did it in any way motivate you to participate in these activities he was instructing you to participate in?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It was supposed to motivate me to work with him or to work for him because then he would be helping me.  I think it was his way of showing me that he appreciated what I did for him and he was trying to draw me closer to him.

MR SIBANYONI: What I want to establish is, if he didn't give you this money would you still have participated in these activities?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I wanted to divulge Mr Mfayela's activities.  Whether he did give me money or not was not an issue.  He even promised me R150 000,00 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I think the question, you've misunderstood the question.  The question Mr Sibanyoni is asking you is if Mr Mfayela didn't give you that R300 twice, would you have still continued working for him?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would have been working for him until the time came that I divulged that information because I always had that secret wish that he should indeed be prosecuted but I would have continued working with him.

MR SIBANYONI: Let me rephrase the question.  Were you paid to take part in these incidents?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: As I've explained before I was not paid specifically for these incidents, except for the amounts that I mentioned before and he would give you this money maybe for cigarettes, as pocket money.  It's about R300,00 or R400,00.  He gave me that money as pocket money just to buy myself a few minor things like cigarettes, cool drinks.  He used to feed me and took car of me when I was at his house but he didn't give me anything else.

MR SIBANYONI: Also in the issue of Mr Matthew Phosa, I understood you to say even if you were never promised the reward you would still have continued to participate in that aborted plot to assassinate him.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would not lie and say that I would not have continued.  I would not have disobeyed the orders coming from these people because I was already involved with them.  Whether they gave me money or not I would still have continued and carried out their  instructions.