Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MR VISSER: Okay, now he is badgering me.  Would you please do me a favour, Mr Chairman, it is bundle C, it is the one which has the different sections, A, B, C, down to F and it starts with contents application of M.N. Ngo, letter by applicant, police report, it goes on to indictment  summary of facts, judgement, judgement, decision of the indemnity committee, that one.
	You haven't got it Mr Chairman?  I think it is the one in front of you.  In Section A, Mr Chairman, there is a page 12.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 5?

MR VISSER: Page 5 typed and page 12 marked.  You haven't got yours marked?  I am sorry Mr Chairman, I didn't realise.  Page 5.  It has A, during 1986 Bloemfontein and then (a).
	I want you to just look at the second sentence, the word during this incident, let me read it.  
"During this incident which occurred during the 1986 student uprisings, I was accompanied by Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome"
and then you mention Mtyala and Motsamai.
	Firstly, in this whole paragraph Mr Ngo, not a word of Cronje.  Would you agree with me?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: So why didn't you mention Cronje here if he oversaw the whole exercise?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I gave names which I remembered.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you told, well you stated that Warrant Officer Tsoametsi was also involved.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he was present.

MR VISSER: But today you didn't tell you anything about Tsoametsi being present Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I spoke about Tsoametsi.  I said it was him and Mamome who kidnapped him and then we met them, then we took that person between Brandfort and Bloemspruit and Shennel(?).

MR VISSER: All right, Mr Ngo, but you are not going to get off that easily.  If you look at page 2, page 24 of bundle A, would you please show the Commission where in that, where you were asked to explain more fully what your application was, where you mentioned Tsoametsi in that document?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which page is that?

MR VISSER: You can choose any page, I would suggest you look at page 2.

CHAIRPERSON: In the last paragraph, and during the process of delay Lieutenant Shaw instructed Warrant Officer Tsoametsi and Sergeant Mamome ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: I do stand corrected Mr Chairman, you are absolutely correct, I apologise.  I withdraw that question.
	Yes, you are absolutely correct, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngo, let us continue while we are in bundle C, Section A, with the other incidents which you referred to there.  First of all, is there any explanation which you can give this Committee why you did not refer to the assault on the members of, or the political activists which were arrested and which assault took place here at Bloemfontein as well as the one at Botshabelo?
	Can you give an explanation, or let me ask you this, did you refer in that document, page 5 or page 6, page 5 to 6, did you refer to the incident, to which you referred to today as the incident at page, your page 5, page 27 of bundle A?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the record speaks for itself.  That is not mentioned in this application.

MR VISSER: All right, now it has been conceded on your behalf.  Can I ask you why did you not mention that incident in this typed written page before you, this document before you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was like this.  I wrote the first statement.  I gave them to prison officials for them to be typed.  I signed them all after they were typed, when I was supposed to write other statements and to compile them for them to be typed, they posted the first statements before I included other statements.
	Then I wrote the matter back, then I sent them to the Truth Commission.

MR VISSER: I am not quite sure.  Please just a simple answer, why did you not include the assault and torturing of comrades in Bloemfontein in this document?  Just repeat the reply I didn't understand it.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were not included because the secretary of prisons is the one who was typing for us.  While she was typing those, he thought that it is a complete document and he sent them, then whilst I was preparing other documents, then those documents were sent already.

MR VISSER: I see.  So he really made a mistake, the person who was typing it, it that what you are saying?  He thought it was the full document, and it wasn't?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: I see, and is that the same explanation why the incident mentioned at page 31 of bundle A, that is the torturing of comrades at Botshabelo was also left out of the document, the typed document before you now?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, all of them.

MR VISSER: And the same would apply to the unlawful use of gangsters?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: The killing of Kotoi?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: All right.  Then you just told the Committee that you signed that document, did I hear you correctly?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which document Sir?

MR VISSER: The ones that you said you signed just now, included this typed document, Mr Ngo.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Every statement you do, you have to sign for it.

MR VISSER: Yes, but when you signed it, did you read through it to make sure that it was correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which one, do you mean other documents?  They have signed, the record office is different and then the typing office is different.	So the typist type them and then I sign them at the record office.

MR VISSER: Well, did you sign the typed written ... (intervention)

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Now staying with that typewritten document, not talking about another one, did you read through it to make sure that it was correct before you signed it?  You don't have to look at it.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Hasn't signed.

MR VISSER: All right, have you now decided to say that you didn't sign that document?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I signed the ones which were handwritten, so they typed the typed one, then they sent it like that.  If you look at all these copies, it doesn't have my signature, except there and there.

MR VISSER: Is that the reason why you say you didn't sign it, it is because it isn't on our copies, is that the reason?
	You see Mr Ngo, I have ... (intervention)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the statement being put is not justified, that is not what the witness is saying.  He is not saying that the thing is not signed because the copies before the Committee do not have the signature, he says he did not sign the typed statement.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, two seconds ago he said, he told us twice, that he did sign it.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman, an explanation was given that I wrote that statement, I signed that statement and then the typist took that statement and typed that statement and that statement he says, is not signed.
	The typed statement is not signed, it is the manuscript that is signed.  That is the evidence.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am not going to waste time, the record will speak for itself.  Can I ask you this ... (intervention)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it is either he withdraws the question, he can't go on saying he is not wasting time, we must know what his theory is, what we have to deal with and what he is suggesting to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand, he is suggesting to the Committee that your applicant is being evasive in his evidence and has changed his story.  He says we can verify that be looking at the record where this appears.

ADV MEMANI: But it is not a matter of wasting time.  I am saying that each time he is met with an objection, he says he is not going to waste time, and this is undesirable.
	It maybe correct at some points to say I am not going to waste time with this, we will deal with it at a later stage, but it is habitual here.