Special Hearings — Legal Hearings — 1997-10-27

MR D'OLIVIERA: Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission, I'm not quite sure what was asked of me over lunch time, because I did not hear anything, but what I have gathered from the hearings, and your concern, is basically what can we do for the future. I have set out my very brief presentation in writing in five pages, precisely with a view to possible questions. I will not read from it unless you request me to. I wish to add, or refer to the following
 To appreciate the tasks of an Attorney General, particularly up in the Northern Provinces, I wish to refer to the matters of record, namely the annual reports, the 1995 September hearing before the Portfolio Committee on Justice, and so forth. We are asked what we can do to improve, or rather to banish, this perception, that the Prosecution is unable to serve. I think there are two angles.
 The first is that we, in our policy of staffing and in our practice on the ground level, that is at magistrate's courts, specifically go out of our way to draw in the community, whether by means of visiting schools or by means of sitting on Community Forums, it's very important for the future that we be known and become, the people's prosecutors. That is very much a PR exercise, but I think that it is vital, because without legitimacy, we'll get nowhere.
 The second most important one, and I think a large reason for this perception of inability to serve, is the serious and very serious deficiency in resources. The Justice budget, the national budget, is a scandal. The result is that salaries paid to prosecutors, is a national disgrace, and I'm quoting a member of another Commission. We are debilitated by the neglect by the Department of Justice because of its inability to do justice within the Department of Justice. 
 I have had the privilege and responsibility of leading a special investigation. I had to ask the President directly for ten more advocates and ten more investigators, because I had over five hundred incidents of Third force alleged activities, which I cannot get to. I have not received a response at all, there is no money, there are no advocates, there are no extra policemen. We cannot, Madam Chair, carry on and try to run a sophisticated country on a budget which is basically meant to keep a railway station going. That is for me, the first primary approach.
 The next aspect I wish to comment on crimes committed by Security Forces. Up to 1994 when I was given the job by the then State President in the TEC, of going into the recommendations and findings of the Goldstone Commission, I never realised what was happening in this country- in reality. I had a good idea, but never realised the depths of the deceit to which we were all subject. But at the same time, there was no way we could get to the truth without it coming from the inside. There was no way Harms could get to the truth, he was lied to, where it came to security matters. We know the system was so much against us that sweepers were used by the Security Forces to cover up scenes of murders, people who knew what the prosecutors would be looking for, so when we came, we said well you can't prove a murder on this evidence. We were deceived that was part of the system. 
 Thus, when you had a death in detention which we all took seriously, and there are instructions in all offices, that are to be taken seriously, we could never get to a prosecution, because the scenes had been swept. 
 Now, what do we do in the future? The experience we have of working directly with hand-picked police, leads me to recommend the consideration of a FBI type unit, which works directly with the Attorney General. It is no good Madam Chair, going and saying in your province there is great organised crime, great this crime and that, what are you as AG doing about it? I can do nothing but tell the police to bring me the dockets. I have no powers over the Police. 
 On the other hand if the lack of response is due to Police corruption, if I have a unit I can call upon to find out why nothing is being done, perhaps we will get somewhere. We have just not been in a position more than relying on tradition and on the politicians to get the Police moving. 
 The point has been made that we can't offer witnesses much protection, in fact our witness protection system is pathetic, and I agree with my colleague too, that courts must be more concerned with ultimate veracities and not just technical points.
 I just touched on some of the points. In my written presentation I remark that, the exclusion of many of our colleagues on the grounds of race from the public legal sector has impoverished our legal system. The difficulties we now experience, the mess we are now in, are the price we are now paying, the country is now paying for such exclusion. 
 Although not an institutional change, which I understand this Commission is seeking to bring about, the task of development of the disadvantaged, of maintaining the levels of experience you have, and of have sharing that experience with the disadvantaged colleagues, should be strongly promoted as one result of this hearing. I thank you Madam Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: : Thank you Mr D'Oliveira. Mr Rossouw.