Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

UNKNOWN: During the cases where I served the Security Branch, Captain Jacques Hechter asked me 
to assist them in operations.  I helped the Security Branch because I considered this as part of my duties as 
Murder and Robbery, since most of these cases were against ANC members who were on occasion 
involved in murder.  I needed this information in my own investigations as a Warrant Officer at Murder 
and Robbery.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, were you engaged in operations of the Security Branch while you were a 
member of Murder and Robbery?

UNKNOWN: That is the case Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: During those operations did you have the agreement of your superiors to be involved 
with the Security Branch?

UNKNOWN: On occasion.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were there regular cooperation between the Security Branch and Murder and 
Robbery?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that was the case.

ADV DU PLESSIS: For what length of time, or rather how well and for what period of time, did 
you know Captain Hechter?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, during 1980 I met Captain Hechter.  We were personal friends.  I know 
him very well, or rather well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, a final aspect with regard to the general background, during 1989 
you began your service at Vlakplaas which is somewhat later than some of the other applicants.  What was 
the position and attitude 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 61

UNKNOWN: with regard to the Unit at  Vlakplaas from 1989 when negotiations started with the liberation movements?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the Vlakplaas Unit was still used primarily to track down arms used in 
acts of terror since it was believed that if the negotiations failed the ANC and other liberation organisations 
might well continue with the armed struggle.
	During the time of their unbanning it was easier for them to gain entry to the country, it was far 
easier for them to gain entry and it was believed that they would have had far easier access to firearms.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were there efforts to smuggle in firearms during this time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, many such cases occurred.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, your view of your own actions during that time, say during the 
early 1990's, how did you consider your own actions, did you consider this as action against the liberation 
movements on behalf of the National Party?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is how I viewed my actions.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, let's page to your application with regard to Brian Ngqulunga.  
Captain Mentz, if we start at page 53, the date given there is 1987 or 1988, is that date correct?

UNKNOWN: No, this date is incorrect.  I've since determined the exact and correct date, namely 19 
July 1990.  The date is 19 July 1990.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, what was your rank during 1990?

UNKNOWN: It was that of a Warrant Officer.

ADV DU PLESSIS: How high up was this in the rank 
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UNKNOWN: structure on Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: It was very low, a very low rank.  I was one of the foot soldiers of the Unit.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Who was in charge of the Vlakplaas Unit at that time?

UNKNOWN: Colonel Eugene de Kock, Chairperson.  He was physically on Vlakplaas and we served 
directly under him and he was under the General Staff at Head Office and in this particular case, General 
Nick van Rensburg.

ADV DU PLESSIS: From whom did you normally receive instructions while serving at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: Normally from Colonel Eugene de Kock, or sometimes from a small group of people 
who worked very closely with him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: ;	Could you expand for the Committee somewhat, you have mentioned a small 
group who worked with him.  Could you give us some greater information about the structure of the 
commands at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: At  Vlakplaas, you were not treated in terms of your rank.  Eugene de Kock used several 
of his own friends and people whom he trusted, such as Willie Nortje,
Chappie Klopper, people who are now State witnesses and who now work for National Intelligence.  These 
people, Willie Nortje for instance, was also a Warrant Officer and he could not under normal circumstances 
give instructions to a Major or a Captain, but were he to give such instructions, it was considered to have 
come directly from Eugene de Kock.
	We did not receive all instructions directly, verbally from Eugene de Kock.  Sometimes from 
other persons who served under him and whose instructions were considered to have been instructions 
from Eugene de Kock.
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 63

UNKNOWN: The instructions we received from Eugene de Kock we never questioned or doubted, we believed 
and the idea was created among us, that these were in fact the instructions of the top structure of the South 
African Police Force since Eugene de Kock on his visits to Pretoria, was always at Head Office and since 
he had access to several highly placed senior officers amongst whom were Generals.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I interrupt.  You mentioned Nortje, what was the other name?

UNKNOWN: Chappies Kloppers.  There are several other such persons.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Are both these persons now in service of National Intelligence?

UNKNOWN: Yes, to my knowledge they are.  They are also State witnesses for the prosecution.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were there occasions with regard to instructions of Colonel de Kock where you 
argued with him with regard to his instructions or asked him questions, or did you simply accept his 
instructions?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairman, the modus operandi within
which we lived on Vlakplaas was such that if De Kock gave an instruction or said something, you did not 
ask questions.  At a later stage in fact, when I started working at Vlakplaas, when I had just come from 
Murder and Robbery, just after I had arrested Almond Nofomela I was in the trust of De Kock for a 
number of months.
	He could probably determine from my behaviour that I did not always agree with his approach 
and the way in which he worked, I then ceased to be one of the people whom he trusted and I became a 
mere foot soldier.
	I want to confirm again that such instructions as I 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 64

UNKNOWN: received from De Kock, or from those persons who worked with him, I believed to have been instructions 
from Head Office.

ADV DU PLESSIS: If you say it comes from Police Head Office, from whom do you mean did 
these instructions come?

UNKNOWN: ;	Firstly from the Commanding General at that time, the General in command of Unit C1, 
now Unit C10 at Vlakplaas.  There were several such Generals.  With regard to the particular case now at 
hand in my application, is General Nick van Rensburg and at a later stage it was General Krappies 
Engelbrecht.	And they were linked to General Johan le Roux as well as General Basie Smit.  Several 
other Generals and also the Commissioner serving at that time, at that particular time.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, had there ever been an incident in which you had doubts in the 
reasons for an instruction given to you by Colonel de Kock?

UNKNOWN: No Mr Chairman, as I have already given testimony I personally saw these instructions 
as having been agreed to by Police Head Office and that he had received 
those instructions from Police Headquarters.  
	I did not consider myself to be in a position where I could ask questions as I have already given 
testimony, I was a foot soldier who could simply act on instructions, I believed that if these instructions 
were given from Head Office, that they were in fact in the interests of the country and I acted in terms of 
that belief.

ADV DU PLESSIS: With regard to the general actions at Vlakplaas while you served there from 
1990 to the end of 1992, could you for the Committee give a general idea of the kind of actions in which 
you were involved while working there?
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 64