Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Paula.  I will now ask anyone of the panellists to ask questions if they would like to do so.  Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Paula for that very moving account of life for those who were in death row, especially when you say it was not just the victims, those who were waiting to be executed, but those who were charged with the duty of guarding them and then being there and make sure that they face their executioners.
 The experience was harrowing for not only those sort of people, in fact I just want to say that the late Matthew Goniwe who was incarcerated in Umtata, and had been sentenced only to four years imprisonment with others, with whom he had been convicted in the Transkei court, spent two years in death row and all of the experiences that you talk about, were experiences that he was forced to undergo even though he had not himself been sentenced to death.
 It just shows the depravity of our society in those bygone days.  That was just a side comment. 
 Have you in your research been able to find out the relevance or otherwise of the racial factor in the imposition of the death sentence?

MS MCBRIDE: It was very relevant.  I had prepared a submission which people can have if they wanted.  I didn't talk to it, but statistically in the period that Truth Commission is looking at, the statistics at the end of all of it is that 95 percent of the people who were sentenced to death in this country, were Black - and Black I say as a category, a broad category.
 And 100 percent of the people who sentenced them to death, were White and in fact 100 percent of them were until probably the last year, White and male.  They were the Judges who sat in judgement upon the people who they eventually sentenced.
 So, in terms of the Truth Commission's enquiry it is of extreme relevance what happened in terms of racial break down.  The other thing that came up, and it has come up here and in America, is that you were much more likely to receive a death sentence if your victim was White.
 So those people, because by the Government of the time, Black life was regarded as pretty much meaningless, people who were convicted of murder or rape of Black people, were very rarely sentenced to death.  It was - you were much more likely to receive a death sentence if your victim was White.  Some Judges in the 1960's and 1970's boasted about the fact that they had sentenced "x" number of men to death  for the rape of White women, which was considered the most heinous crime ever.
 But for the rape or murder of Black women, there was one Judge who boasted he had never sentenced anybody to death for that.  Probably the difference with the victim was when in the upheavals from the 1980's, when Black stooges, informers, councillors were killed.
 That was regarded as very serious and we know from the introduction of the common purpose, the use of the common purpose doctrine, that that was also considered very serious because there were people who had been bought over into the system and when they were killed, there were a lot of death sentences handed out for that.
 But prior to that, the race of the victim was also very important.

CHAIRPERSON: Hugh?

MR LEWIN: Paula, thank you very much.  In your experience of meeting these people on death row, did you ever find anyone who said that capital punishment of the threat of the noose was a deterrent?

MS MCBRIDE: I, it is difficult to say, I probably met in terms of people on death row, during that period, I probably met I don't know, 200, 250 of the people who were sentenced to death.  I know a lot of them well.
 And obviously that is a question you ask, because that is one of the reasons that people say bring back the death penalty, it will stop the crime.  Firstly, theoretically it has never been proven that it will stop the crime, but also when you talk to individuals, so much, so many of the crimes that occurred are what could in a broad sense be termed, crimes of passion.
 Things that happen when your blood is hot, you know, when you just - it is not many people who like the State, plan a murder and plan how it is going to happen.  So that not one person that I ever spoke to, said you know, well before I carried out that murder, I sat back and I thought damn, I am going to get hanged for that.
 Not one single person.  Because of the way murder takes place, the only, as I say, the only people who very systematically planned murders, are the State when they carry out the death penalty.  Other than that, murder does not happen as a very calculated, it is either a by-product of something that is going on or it is something that happens in the heat of the moment.
 And not one person has ever said God, you know, I was really worried I was going to be hanged.  You know, it just is not something that crosses anyone's mind.

MR LEWIN: Could I then ask the concomitant question, if not the rope, what?

MS MCBRIDE: Yes, well, I mean I have obviously strong views on that.  I think that there are short term and there are long term solutions.  And the long term solutions are to do with the way we order society and it is a very, very long term solution.
 I think the short term solution is to cut down on the number of crimes that happen.  Not just to punish the people who carry out the crimes and so I would say in our present situation, obviously crime is a major factor in all of our lives, that we need to bring out a much more public deterrent and in my view there could be options like, and it sounds probably horrible, but bring out the Army, let the Army patrol the streets, let people feel safe in their homes by saying here is an Army which is part of a national democratic government, who we all support and who is our people.
 Let them come onto the streets and protect us inside our country, we don't have an outside threat at the moment.  Let's say if the police are overstretched, they don't have enough capacity, let the Army come in, let them help us, so that we in stead of saying, how do we punish the criminals, let's stop the criminals before they get to committing crime.
 And in the long term, let's make our society a place that is better for all the human beings who live in it, so that people do not resort to crime.  And let's make things more difficult for organised criminals, and organised crime who are out there having pretty much a field day.  I think there are short and long term, obviously prison terms will come into that.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Paula, you are talking about the communities that gets affected, that is the warders, the Judges and so on.  Where would you place the church in the whole issue, like you are saying there are Chaplains going to pray for dying people?