Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

MR VALLY: Thank you. I am going through this in detail for a reason but I will explain that to you right now. You talk about the destruction of two hard drives which may have information regarding the project officer's previous purchases and research activities in Switzerland.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: In order that the police do not get their hands on it and there is a sum of 28 000 dollars for that.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: And you talk about the balance under (F) 1500 dollars which the project officer used to travel by car through Europe to go to the trial and thereafter to attempt to search for some person called Jaco Matt.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Now you have clearly indicated to us that you had no knowledge of the financial dealings. You didn't know which accounts they were. You didn't know how much there was in those accounts. Is that correct?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I didn't say that Mr Vally. I said (...intervention)

MR VALLY: Alright tell us the extent of your knowledge of the financial affairs?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally the accounts opened in Europe had to be approved by the Minister. In the documentation that was given to the Office of Serious Economic Offences that approval, the letter of approval and exactly how it functioned was drawn up by Brigadier Koertzen, handed over to me and I handed over to the OSEO so that they had the accounts that had been approved at ministerial level.

MR VALLY: My question is this (...intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Please let me just finish?

MR VALLY: No, no maybe if you understand my question before you continue. You were the project manager for operation Jotta. You personally in your capacity as Surgeon-General under which 7th Battalion fell, you in your capacity as project manager for operation Jotta - what knowledge did you have of the financial dealings of Dr Wouter Basson round about in connection with directly or indirectly operation Jotta? That is my question.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: You talking about detailed knowledge of what had happened on the ground ...(inaudible)?

MR VALLY: Well for example did you know of the 75 000 dollars given to Dr Wouter Basson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He reported that to me, he explained it to me and then I knew about it certainly.

MR VALLY: So you didn't know about it before that?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir.

MR VALLY: Yet you were his project manager?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: As far as, this emerged - no Sir remember the freedom of movement that Dr Basson had with regards to dealing with issues on the ground when they emerged to try and regain the funds that had been lost in the Croatian transaction was given to him directly by General Liebenberg. When he came back and he explained to us in this letter exactly how he had expended those funds it was dealt with at the CMC. Unfortunately by that time General Liebenberg wasn't here any more. But it was certainly in the time when General Liebenberg agreed that he could go and unravel the situation with the Croatian issue.
 The fact that I have great difficulty in explaining exactly what he had done and whether he had done it I dealt with as follows. The co-ordinating management committee had a financial work group which was the Chief of Staff Finance, the Chief of Staff and myself and the project officer. Originally with Brigadier Basson, later on Colonel Steyn. This sort of thing would have been discussed at that level and certainly Brigadier Koertzen who is co-opted to this meeting to help us unravel this is sitting there with us saying what impression he had of this. I think if we want to really find out exactly what each of these transactions were we need to have a report from him and we need to speak to the Office of Serious Economic Offences and find out what they have discovered about this.

MR VALLY: So you yourself cannot?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I have great difficulty in answering this in more detail than that.

MR VALLY: And you are saying that we should refer to the co-ordinating committee and Brigadier Koertzen?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Is that correct?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: Well let's look at paragraph 2
"It is requested that these payments,"
and again your abbreviation. What does that abbreviation stand for?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Due to.

MR VALLY: Thank you.
"Due to the lack of proof or evidence is certified by the project leader."
That is yourself?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: "...as expenses incurred in the interest of the
project."

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: So you were asked to certify this as justifiable expenses for the project?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: Which you go on and do.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: On that same letter.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: Do you see the last sentence underneath W Basson Project officer Jotta, Brigadier it says
"Abovementioned payments are certified as incurred in the interest of the project."
What basis did you have to say that this was in the interest of the project?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I had the basis of discussing it with the financial committee which had the Chief of Staff Finance and Brigadier Koertzen and the Chief of Staff of the Defence Force that discussed this with me and said you can go ahead and you can sign it. And we then discussed it at the CMC where the Chief of the Defence Force was also present and where the acting Chief of Staff Finance was present and there the approval was given about the refund or the repayment of funds that Brigadier Wouter Basson had expended.

MR VALLY: You see our concern by (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Wendy Orr.

WENDY ORR: General Knobel the fact that you signed approval of these expenses and that the CMC agreed with you that they were appropriate expenses seems to indicate to me that it was common practice for government funds to be used for bribes. Is that an appropriate conclusion to draw?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes it was certainly common practice for bribes to be paid to be able to get the substances we required for the project. That is true.

WENDY ORR: Was this only within the context of Project Coast?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Well I was only aware or I was only responsible for Project Coast. I am not aware of the other projects that the Defence Force had at that time but I should imagine that it applied generally.

WENDY ORR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally continue.

MR VALLY: I put to you that the details of the project such as flights via Njamina or bribing people there or bribing people at Duala, bribing people in Croatia and the purpose for which the bribes were given wasn't within the knowledge of anyone except Dr Wouter Basson.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: It was left at the discretion of the project officer.

MR VALLY: Here is a man you concerned about his financial improprieties in 1991, you say in February 1992 that you were absolutely convinced that he acted outside the mandate of the project and had probably abused capabilities yet you accept his discretion in May 1994 and certify that the expenses he claims are correct.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Having been supported by Chief of Staff Finance and Brigadier Koertzen in an analysis of that I certainly did that.

MR VALLY: Well ultimately you were the chief accounting officer.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I am not Sir. The Chief of the Defence Force is the chief accounting officer.

MR VALLY: Oh I see I beg your pardon. Of Operation Jotta?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Of any operation within the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Fine. Well let's move on. You personally didn't have knowledge of financial dealings. You are not a chemist are you?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir.

MR VALLY: You are not a microbiologist?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir.