Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: You cannot be a leader without training, Chairperson.  You cannot lead the soldiers if you are not trained, so that is why I'm saying she was just sympathising with them, she was a sympathiser.

ADV BOSMAN: Was this ever discussed with your seniors, exactly what her position was?  Did you ever discuss this with your white seniors?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I know is that people from exile used to come to her and she would look for accommodation for those people and help them financially and her people were also in exile.

ADV BOSMAN: Is this what you conveyed to your seniors, that she was just helping people to find accommodation, people from exile?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: This is what I saw, I perceived it that way because I could see that this person was not trained but she knew those people that were in exile.

ADV BOSMAN: No, but my question is, was this what you told your seniors?  Did you tell them this woman had no training, her only role is to provide people who come into the country with accommodation?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not tell them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Adv Bosman might be referring to is, we've had certain statements read out now by other applicants who, Baker et al, who say that she was the leader of the cell, do you know where they would have got that information from?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman just for the record, it was Mr Wills who asked the question, it was Joe Coetzer and de Kock's statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sorry Mr van der Merwe.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Baker was not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
	Mr de Kock's statement and Mr Coetzer's statement which Mr Wills read out just now, they mention Ms Kubheka as being the leader of the cell, in their statements, where do you think they would have got that idea from?  Whether they were right or wrong, but where would they have got it in their head that Ms Kubheka was the leader of a cell?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know where they got that idea, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Now who did you regard as the big fish?  You know there were a number of people there and you must have had conversations and discussions with them, who did you regard as the big fish?  The one who had to be sort of addressed first.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I can say it was her because she was the one who knew where others were.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay now is this what you conveyed to your seniors, that this is the most important person with whom we are dealing?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not tell them that.

ADV BOSMAN: The second question which I need some clarity on, Mr Mbane, is it's not clear to me where Mr Radebe really featured in your operation.  From your evidence I gathered that you were the kingpin as it were, you were the important person in the operation, is that correct, or am I wrong?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: You were the important one in your operation in dealing with these four activists?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Now what exactly was Mr Radebe's role, because he gave evidence that he was the senior person and that his role was that of the driver of a, generally your driver and he said a particular vehicle was allotted to him, allocated to him.  How did you see his role, what was he there for?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Radebe's role was to help us with transport and with money, so that is why a lot of times he would not be with us when we go there and sometimes he would be with us.  That is why we ended up getting this Corolla.  And he would not always be with us as he was the person who was helping us with transport and money.

ADV BOSMAN: Who allocated the Corolla to you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Botha told us to go to CR Swart to get a car.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you went to visit Ntombi's house, which vehicle did you use?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The first time?

ADV BOSMAN: No - well yes, the first time.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The first time we used the kombi.  Simon was driving and then he dropped us about a kilometre from that house.

ADV BOSMAN: The subsequent visit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Sometimes we would use a kombi and sometimes I would drive a Corolla.  I was the one who was driving the Corolla, even when we went to Sbu we were using the Corolla.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one very quick question.  Why do you think Mr Radebe would have shot the person who was in the back of the vehicle when you were driving?  From what reason?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know, Chairperson, because I was driving at that time, I was behind the steering wheel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did you ask him, did you say to him "Well you know, what did you do that for?  Why did you shoot the person, we were taking him back like we've done with Sbu and we'd done with the other chap that we'd put at the roadblock, why do you go and kill this man now?"  Didn't you ask him?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As my senior, Chairperson, I did not ask, I did not even think about asking him.

CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you were concerned you were driving a car with the idea of taking this person you had captured to your officers in charge, on the way without any explanation and completely against the plan, one of you shoots him through the head and you just dump the body at a hotel entrance and you say not a word, you don't question it at all?  You just raise no query.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Chairperson, the way we operated, our job was to do what we were told to do and if you see others doing something else, you don't ask questions.  So as my senior, I just assumed that he knew what he was doing, so I did not ask him questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you used to get drunk with Mr Radebe on duty, you got so drunk that you couldn't even go back to the base you had to sleep at the station, it wasn't a question of he's my officer, I can't say anything to him, you would get drunk together.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Chairperson, I can't remember being so drunk or Radebe being so drunk and not even being able to see the way back.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying that - well that hasn't been touched upon, you didn't sleep at the station because Mr Radebe was drunk and couldn't go back to Winkelspruit in case he was seen to be drunk?  Did you hear Mr Radebe's evidence about that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I heard his evidence, but I can't remember sleeping at the station.  We used to sleep at the base.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising, Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: No.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbane, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairperson, if Mr Mbane is not being recalled from hence forth, may he be excused as he'd like to go back.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he's not an applicant, he's an implicated person.  Any objection to Mr Mbane being excused?

MR VISSER: If he's keen to get back to jail, Chairperson, he's welcome.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may be excused from further attendance, Mr Mbane.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, you won't be leading any further witnesses will you?

MR SAMUEL: No further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.  I'm going to ask for a short adjournment because there are copies that I've made from the mortuary books.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, and if you could let us know as soon as you're ready and then I think in the meantime if these dresses could be, well they're all exhibits now, just packed up into the plastic, that arrangements could be made for that.