Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: On the same day, but earlier on.

ADV LOURENS: And are those the, the events that you were giving evidence about just now, was that leading up to meeting with the other two applicants on the 15th?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I cannot hear properly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Lourens, was your witness not trying to explain how he met the applicants?

ADV LOURENS: That is how I understood his ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the ...

ADV LOURENS: ...  evidence Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Well, probably you have got to lead him, because he does not seem to be getting us into the actual incident.

ADV LOURENS: As I understood his evidence he was leading up to how he met with the other two.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am simply presuming that the two applicants were part of the group of youth that he referred to in his evidence.

ADV LOURENS: It will become ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am not sure.

ADV LOURENS: ... apparent in, perhaps if we could.  Mr Maxam, on the 15th, explain to the Committee how it is that you met with the other two applicants.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I was disturbed just when I was about to say that.  I asked them, as I met this group, whether anybody had been arrested or injured.  They said, no, but it was important that we get weapons to fight the enemy.  I asked how we were going to get the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us just get this ...

ADV LOURENS: Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ... please.  Where did you meet the other two applicants?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Between Block D and C at the halls.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Maxam, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just a ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... is this in Silverton, in Silverton?

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the other two were there others with them?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, they were a group at the corner of Hostel D.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you come upon them accidentally or was it planned?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: No, it was not planned, it was incidental.

ADV LOURENS: Sir ...

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you met them there, now tell us step by step what happened.  Give us the account of the events rather than all the conversations.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: From Block D I went home.  We were going to meet after a period of time.  However, we were not going to meet at Block D anymore, but at Block G.  I went to the G Block at Madoda's place.  They said to me ...

ADV LOURENS: Could you just stop there please.  Who is Madoda?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Madoda Tisana is one of the applicants.  Madoda Tisana is one of the applicants sitting next to me.  He said to me there were farms, we could go get weapons.  I said to them that that was a good idea.  However, we must not act anyhow, we must try to act as responsibly as we could.  We went to one of the last houses.  We came across the owner of the house at the gate.

ADV LOURENS: Could I just stop you there Mr Maxam.  The house that you are talking about, do you mean the farm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it was a farm.

ADV LOURENS: Yes, and am I correct in saying that the farm's name was Vlakkeland?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.

ADV LOURENS: Now, before you proceed with the events at Vlakkeland, who told you that there would be firearms there or to go and look at that particular farm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Madoda Tisana told me.

ADV LOURENS: Right, please proceed.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We went to the farm believing that we would get weapons.  When you were at Mbekweni you could see, you can see the farm and I would see police and caspirs around that area, around the farm, that particular farm.  We met the owner at the gate.  I stopped him.  I said Mr Noble, we are looking for a job, do you have work for us?  He said he did not.  He walked on.  After he left as we knew that we were not looking for a job, we were looking for weapons.  We went to the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr Lourens, do we have the correct translation when the witness says,
"I said Mr Noble, we are looking for a job?".

ADV LOURENS: That is so.  That is the name of the farmer who they met at the gate to the farm as he ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: So he actually addressed him as Mr Noble?

ADV LOURENS: That is so.  May I just put, Mr Maxam before you go on.  Mr Noble, was he known to you at that stage?  On the 15th of April did you know what his name was?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not know him.  He had a bakery and he would sell bread at the township.  I did not know where he stayed, but I knew that he had a bakery.  I did not know specifically that he was Mr Noble.  Can I carry on?

ADV LOURENS: Yes.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: When we got to the house we did not go to the door.  I saw someone within the house.  The rest of the youth went around to the door.  I asked for water from the lady that I saw from inside so that she could open her window.  I was then going to request for her to open the door after she had opened the window.  We had not gone to fight any particular person in the house.  All we wanted was weapons.  This lady refused.

CHAIRPERSON: She refused what?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: She refused to open the door for us to go inside the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When did you ask her to open the door?  Was that before you asked for a glass of water or after you had asked for a glass of water?  At what stage did you ask her to open the door?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: As she was giving us the water and I had the glass in my hand, then I asked her to open the door.  I could talk to her face to face as she had opened the window.  There were others standing around me as well.  I said to her we were armed, but even though I am armed I have not come to shoot anybody, but to defend myself, because what we wanted were weapons.  During that exchange of words I think Madoda Tisana grabbed the lady.  He grabbed the lady because she was refusing to open the door.  This lady screamed.  As I was just next to Madoda I took out my gun as she was screaming and I shot inside.  As I was shooting I was pointing towards her even though I did not realise that when Madoda let go of her, I thought that she had fallen down.  The others had broken the kitchen door down.
	Crosby then said I must not shoot this person.  I could not hear well though, but I went inside the house.  This lady was lying down next to the cupboard.  We went inside into the bedrooms.  I went into the bedroom actually where we searched cupboards, kists, under mattresses, under beds and anything that was a container, because we wanted these weapons.  One of the drawers in the dressing table, I got a red box.  I realised that there was something inside.  I opened this box, there were bullets inside.  I put them inside my overall.  I heard someone saying that we must beware.  When they screamed out we got out running.  I had not realised that I had shot this lady already.  I shot at her again, because I did not want her to be able to identify us if the police came or the neighbours.  The gardener was outside.

JUDGE WILSON: How many of you were there then?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We were six or seven if I remember well.  In running I turned and shot the gardener, at the gardener.  Apparently, I, the bullet got him.  There was a field that I had run across.  I hid the bullets and my gun under a root of a tree that was exposed.  After two or three months I heard that the police were looking for me, that the other youth members that were there with me had been already arrested.  I would go to Nyanga bush, Crossroads running away from the police.  I stayed with Mr Yameli who was a leader at the time and supported the African National Congress.  That is what happened on that day.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Maxam, the lady that you referred to that was shot, was she the domestic worker?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, she was the domestic worker.  Well, it seemed so.

ADV LOURENS: Now could you please make it clear to the Committee why it is that you shot at her and shot at the gardener?