Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-29

CHAIRPERSON: We are continuing with the evidence of Mr Barnard.  Mr Wessels.

FERDINAND BARNARD: (s.u.o.)

MR WESSELS: (cont)
	Thank you.  Mr Barnard after the first incident when it became known that you were involved in McQuillan, after the Klaas de Jonge incident then Lafras Luitingh told you that you should not make contact with McQuillan, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes that is correct.

MR WESSELS: You went against his instructions, you immediately afterwards went and did make contact with McQuillan.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.  If I recall correctly McQuillan constantly contacted me on the pager and yes I did contact him.

MR WESSELS: And you then, indeed, at the second opportunity comprised the operation or the organisation.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I will not say that.

MR WESSELS: With Colonel Viktor.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes definitely.   Not specifically the CCB Sir, I said I thought it was Special Forces I could not tell them who was the chief or the head of the organisation, I did not tell him, and I also pretended that they made use of my services now and again that I had not a fixed position with these people or connection with these people.

MR WESSELS: You testified that Verster and Luitingh were very upset about this.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not know if Verster was upset about it, but Luitingh was.

MR WESSELS: If Verster knew about it he would have been upset about it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, possibly.

MR WESSELS: Quite likely?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes definitely.

MR WESSELS: Very well.  And Luitingh then told you that because of these actions of yours you have to lie low.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: That was approximately in April 1989?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Sir I cannot say it was in April because I cannot recall it in that way.  My mind tells me that this incident took place somewhere in March, the Security Branch  and McQuillan, when it was I cannot say to you but I do not know if it was before or afterwards that I had the Webster contact with these people.  It could be that it was correctly - afterwards I put it in the same timeframe because the incident to which I connect this was McQuillan Security Branch in Sandton.  It was somewhere around in March and it was not in April.

MR WESSELS: Notwithstanding the fact that you now did not listen to your instructions you comprised the organisation, you received an instruction to lie low and during the same timeframe you are now approached and you are given the instruction to monitor Dr Webster with the eye, is that what you are saying?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is what I said, ja.

MR WESSELS: Ja.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Because that's how it happened.

MR WESSELS: Doesn't it seem ridiculous to you that such actions would be committed by Verster and Luitingh?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Sir.

MR WESSELS: At what opportunity did you make mention of the fact that you can shoot him with the shotgun?  Was that at the first meeting or the second meeting?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was the second meeting if I am correct.

MR WESSELS: Were you at the first meeting or did you receive your instructions at the first meeting that you had to eliminate him or was it only mentioned that he had to fall?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson I foresaw that I possibly will have to do the shooting although I cannot recall that I received a specific instruction on that day that I was the person who was going to kill him, but I foresaw it.

MR WESSELS: And nobody told you that you had to make a plan to kill him at the first opportunity?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I had to gather information concerning his routine and movements and I foresaw that I possibly would have to kill him.

MR WESSELS: Did you discuss with anybody how you will kill Dr Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I cannot recall.  I think I discussed it with Calla Botha at a certain stage, but I cannot think that I discussed it with anybody else.

MR WESSELS: You did not discuss this with Eugene Riley?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No I am not sure, I do not think so.

MR WESSELS: You do not think so?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I do not think so.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman in the Bundle G, page 60, Mr Barnard there's an extract from the evidence that appears in Judge Els' judgment and Judge Els says the following of Brenda Mills' evidence.  She testified that Riley and the accused in their house, her and Riley's house, had a discussion.  They said that Webster had to be killed.  Riley suggested that he had to be shot in the head with a sniper rifle, but the accused's reference to you did not agree and he wanted to make use of his own method.  Is it true?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, that evidence is not correct.  It's also not the evidence of Brenda Mills.  It was evidence of Riley's girlfriend, Julie Wilken, and under cross-examination she conceded that she hated me because I always took him with me on excursions to meet other women, and she also described me in Jacques Pauw's book as, "something that should be crushed like a fly".  So she did not like me and it was very clear and all her evidence was false.  Eugene Riley was never part of the CCB.  He was not tasked with anything or any actions within the CCB or indirectly tasked by the CCB.  He was a friend of mine and we had other involvements, but with the Webster incident he had nothing to do with it.

MR WESSELS: Yes you said he was a friend of yours and you had other involvements.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I said we had other involvements.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wessels, could I just ask a question please.  Is it possible that you told Eugene Riley, or discussed the killing of Dr Webster with Eugene Riley?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Not as far as I can recall before the incident, no, but there's a larger possibility that afterwards, after the incident was committed I did talk to him about it, because I trusted him.  But I did not have this issue with the sniper rifle, I cannot shoot with such a rifle because I was not trained to use that rifle.  I am somebody that can use a handgun and other rifles or firearms and I would never have considered it as an option, and I also never did.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: It was not you who considered it as an option it was Riley that considered it as an option.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That never took place, that discussion never took place.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha was also your friend.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You trusted him as you trusted Riley?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Botha was also not tasked to kill Webster.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No he wasn't.

MR WESSELS: But you involved him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Now you say that you then decided that a shotgun would be the rifle to use, or the firearm to use?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You then went to go and borrow a shotgun to go and practice with.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That actually happened spontaneously.  At that stage I was interested in George Mitchell's house, I wanted to buy his house.  He was a former policeman.  We talked the same language.  And I went to go and visit him at his house as usual.  We were in his bar, we started talking about firearms, then he went to go and get a nickel-plated Tokarev firearm that was licensed.  There were certain modifications done to the firearm and I was interested in that and I looked at the firearm.  Then he took out the shotgun, he showed it to me and I said well I am on my way to the South Coast to a friend of mine's farm, lend it to me and I will go and shoot some guinea fowl, because he was very proud about the weapon.  He was boasting about it.  I then did it.  But I foresaw that to see how I can shoot with this firearm from a moving vehicle.

MR WESSELS: But you were not planning to use that firearm?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I gave it back to him before the incident occurred.