Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, it was also in 1961 when I was arrested.  In 1963 I was arrested again and this is the Imbasha issue that you are talking about.  Then I was accused and the charges were laid against me, but later they were withdrawn.  I was then acquitted because it was said I was not involved in the murder of the white people at Imbasha.  In 1966 I was arrested again.  I was released after spending 180 days in detention.  The reason for my arrest was that I should be detained because I was holding meetings during the night.
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During this period we were trying to conscientise our Chiefs.  We proceeded with our work trying to convince them and we were also stating what happened to Chief Bangilizwe who did not contest the seat.  We mentioned that he was political minded now because he realised that he could not sell out his people.  He could not collaborate with the whites.  He could not work as an informer for the white people.  He also stated that he cannot be a referee and a player at the same time.  
 We also made an example about Chief Albert Luthuli who also preferred to abdicate his seat instead of oppressing the people who were his followers.  That is when this motivated the Chief of the Tembus and then he joined the political organisations.  He attended these political meetings.  We use to go to East London during the night.  It was during the time when the African National Congress was banned.  We would meet with Govan Mbeki, Raymond Mhlaba, James Kati, Voyce Suliminnie, Andrew Masondo.  We were the Chiefs of the Thembu's.   This was very beautiful and I use to have all the freedom and we were use to moving wherever we wanted to go. We use to hold meetings.  Even in the dark because we do not have electric lights here.  We would say if the people come to assault or attack us we will have to be able to defend ourselves properly because we are use to the darkness.  Then we were able to work together with the Chiefs because of our preaching and influence.  
 During this period the separate development was a big issue.  Then during the time when the Transkei was given its independence there were two groups.  One group was led by Chief Dalunga and his group was TNIP and then DP was led by Chief Victor, King Victor Pooko.  Dalunga's group had 
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encouraged separate development and then the DP organisation was believing in multi-racial existence of everybody and then they wanted all races to share in the world of South Africa.  The notes on a piano, black and white.  The tune may be playing on the black notes and the tune may be playing on the white notes, but for real harmony they both play.  We see this example of a black and white piano which produces harmony in the present Government of National Unity.  That were the preachings which were broadcast by all the Chiefs who were involved in the political struggle.

ADV NTSEBEZA: In 1976 the Transkei obtained its independence.  Can you please tell what happened during that period?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: I was not against Chief Dalunga.  He was a stumbling block of the freedom.  That is why we had a lot of conflict.  In 1976 we were arrested.  We did not want this independence and then we were detained for that reason.  We were released, but were detained again in 1977.  In 1978 we were released.  We were released so that we can be expelled.  We were informed that there is information that we are going to be chased away and then we were ordered to go away from this area.  We said we will not run away.
 I was the representative of this group in Umtata.  I was also a Member of Parliament.  Even when it was said that we should be in the opposition side, I refused to participate in that because I wanted to know what was I going to gain for that.  Then the Pondos and the Bathas were the people who were in the DP, but then they withdraw and resigned and rejoined the TNIP.  I went to the Chief and I asked him what was happening.  Chief Dalunga was the one who succeeded me.  Chief Dalunga was very happy because he was 
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able to recruit Chief Sabate.  Habit Emlangkeni came to him and informed the King and whispered in his ears and then we were ordered to go and take our seats as the DP Members.  He was the young brother to Dalunga, was surprised not to see us on the opposition side.  We said we do not want to be regarded as liars.  That is why he could not find us on the opposition side.

ADV NTSEBEZA: In 1978 you said you were chased away in April.  Where were you taken to?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Chief Bangilizwe was taken to Cofimvaba and the place is called Mtingwefu.  I was taken to Qumbu in the location where it is said it is known as Tshungulu and it is also known as Majekies Place.

ADV NTSEBEZA: How long did you stay there?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: We stayed for nine years.  Whilst we were in exile.

ADV NTSEBEZA: We do not know what you mean when you say you have been expelled.  What do you mean when you say the Chief with all the families and the children who had property.  How were you chased away from your area?  Just give us a brief information so that we can understand what you mean by being expelled from your area.

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Let me start by saying my people were responsible for what happened.  As you said, there was some blockage as we resisted to take part in the oppressive Government and the authorities liked this, but the President of that time did not like that we did not want to participate in his Government.  Even one of the Chiefs did not like that we did not want to participate also.  We thought that Chiefdomship is hereditary, we did not know that you can just offer somebody Chiefdomship.  We regarded
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this as disgraceful because we regard Chiefdomship as something which is royal and it is also something to be respected, but during this period the King and the Chief who was responsible for collaborating with the then President was offered this Chiefdomship.  This Chief was responsible for what happened to us.  We were regarded as undesirable elements in the community.  They would say, especially this cripple, who is this cripple.  They referred that to me.  It was said that we should be expelled for good from this area.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do you mean really Zwele Dumele?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, I mean Zwele Dumele.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do you mean Ramaindia, no, India the wife and  Wilmot Joyi and Wille?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, I mean all those.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Are they the people who said you must be persecuted?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So the Government at the time took that and considered what they said?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes, but we also said we do not mind.  We would be selling insurance.  Even if you take, you see us anyway.  We will be able to survive.  If we are regarded as rotten potatoes then why should they take us as rotten as we are and place them in other bags.  We said, we consoled each other and said let us go forward.
 It was in 1980 and we learned about his persecution.  I remember the time when he was taking to Court at Qumbu.  He was sentenced.  He heard also that his life was at stake and then Khate and all others were the people who assisted him.  They assisted him to run away and they put him inside the bakery and then he crossed the river with the bakery.  
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ADV NTSEBEZA: If we talk about this King, who is that?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: We mean Sabate, King Sabate Dalindyebo.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Is that the King Sabate who went away to Lesotho in Zambia and then he died there?

KULILE ANDERSON DALAGUBE: Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: What else can you tell us about 1980?