Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, you wish to put to the witness?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, do you wish to question thiswitness?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I do Judge. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink has suggested however, thatI first get some guidance from the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee on one aspect. We have in our possessioncertain statements which were made by Mr Makoma, confessions which were madeto the police which were ruled inadmissible at the hearing, the criminal hearingin this matter. It would seem to me that in light of the fact that the applicantsnow intend to confess to their participation in these events, that the contentsof these statements are no longer inadmissible on the basis that they were inadmissibleat the trial, that they would appear to some extent, in any event, to be correct.Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, has however suggested that I put to the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee or ask for the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee'sguidance as to what their admissibility would be particularly with a view tocross-examination in these proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridgeyou will have to clear the groundwork with Mr Makoma first to establish whetherthis was his statement, whether it was made freely and voluntarily, whetherany pressure or any violence was exerted on him at the time and matters of thatkind.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That certainly may be the case, however, the difficultynow is that certain of the contents of that statement, may be relevant withrespect to this applicant.

ADV DE JAGER: On what grounds was it decidedthat it was not admissible?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It was decided, no it is notcorrect to say it was decided that he was assaulted, the court specificallyfound that the accused as he was in those proceedings, had not been assaulted,it was found however, that due to the length of the interrogations and perhapsthe time of day and factors like that, although it cannot
per se be saidthat he had been induced into making statements against his will, that the mannerin which the interrogations were held, was not the best manner and there mayhave been some emotional stress on him at the time, which may have perhaps inducedhim to say things which he otherwise may not have said.

<UNKNOWN>: ut it was not foundthat the interrogations
per se were improper or ...

<UNKNOWN>: ut wouldn't that be also the case here then, why should this differ if it wasinadmissible on the grounds of long interrogations or legally inadmissible,why ...

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, I would submit that it could be relevantto the extent that it now appears that the applicants will admit largely thatwhat they said in those statements, is correct, which was categorically deniedin the criminal proceedings. Now it appears that they admit that what the natureof the confession was largely speaking, completely correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, in that case, you will have to deal with it like my brother is suggestingto you, in fact I initially misunderstood, I thought that it was his own statement,now you say it was Mr Makoma's statement.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: You can do no more than if you have that statement, which wasmade by Mr Makoma where he refers to this particular witness, the best for you,you can do no more than ask this gentleman and say to him, in a statement whichMr Makoma disowned, he said you did this and this, is it true? If he says itis true, then you have no problem, but if he says it is not true, then you can'ttake it any further.

<UNKNOWN>: ut you will have to deal with it, not with pertinent questions,you will have to single out statement by statement, you may not say to him soand so made a statement, is that statement not true, that is what I am referringto when I say not a pertinent questions. You will have to deal with the statementsentence by sentence to be on a proper footing.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The evidentialvalue of all that is something which we will have to decide at, at the appropriatestage.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I appreciate the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee's guidanceon that. Mr Mkhumbuzi, can you tell me when did you first become a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: itself?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: In November 1992, but I am not sure aboutthe date.

<UNKNOWN>: nd how were you recruited to that organisation?

<UNKNOWN>: s a member of the P

<UNKNOWN>: , I knew that there was a militarywing of the P

<UNKNOWN>: , which is

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . I was interested in joining or being a memberof

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . In the activities I have done, I was an organiser and I met these people,I then joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What was in fact the procedure forjoining

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , was there any formal procedure or any formal steps that you hadto take?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, there was no procedure in joining

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: exceptthat if you wanted to be a member, and if you believed to what we believed in,if you wanted to be a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , you became a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , so therewas no procedure to follow in order to join

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . If you wanted to join, youwould join.

<UNKNOWN>: ut what did you join, did you have to tellsomeone I am now joining

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: or how did this transition from being an ordinarymember of the P

<UNKNOWN>: to becoming a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: take place?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: What I did, I used to attend P

<UNKNOWN>: meetings. I was

<UNKNOWN>: Z

<UNKNOWN>: NYO organiser and I alwaysheard about

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: soldiers but I couldn't contact and meet them. They would cometo P

<UNKNOWN>: members and I found out about that after a long time, that they wouldattend P

<UNKNOWN>: meetings and listen to the meeting and to the procedures.

<UNKNOWN>: nd theywould pick up right persons, that is how they recruited people to join

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .You would not just come and say you want to be a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did your training with

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: begin?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I can say that Iwas a member of the Task Force. I was working for the Task Force. From therethere were known contacts who were known to the leaders of the Task Force. Fromthere you would be a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What was the purposeof this Task Force?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The purpose of the Task Force was toprotect and to defend P

<UNKNOWN>: members. Those who were working on the ground.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I just want to refer you to the plea of Mr Makoma which he madewhen, in the criminal trial in which he was prosecuted. It is at page 5 of thebundle for the purposes of the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. I don't know whether the applicantin fact requires a copy for him, otherwise I can just read to him the sectionto which I am going to refer.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it a lengthy passage youwant him to consider?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is a passage of about four lines.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, just put it to him.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Okay. Inhis statement to the court, Mr Makoma said that in and during 1993, P

<UNKNOWN>: memberswere attacked by members of rival political organisations. He said this ledto the formation of the Task Group under the leadership of Siphiwe Makweso andthis group was specifically informed to protect P

<UNKNOWN>: leaders and members, doyou confirm that that is correct what he says?

CHAIRPERSON: I can't findthat.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is at page 5 of the bundle, Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Your bundle?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Which we handed up to the court, I beg yourpardon.

ADV DE JAGER: Typed page 5. The 5, typed?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is amongst the bundle of documents which we've handed up in the file.

ADVDE JAGER: Ours are not numbered, as far as I can see.