Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cilliers, you are a colleague and as such you are an Officer of the Court.  I don't want you to be testifying on behalf of your client.  We have heard you and we appreciate your assistance.
 Now a question has been put to your client, you have done your duty which in terms of the ethics which govern our profession, you are inclined and indeed obligated to give to your client.  Let your client exercise the benefit of your advice.

MR BASSON: Mr Chairperson, in answer to Mr Vally's questions, I want to declare that this morning I have indicated clearly that I am willing to cooperate with the Commission.
 The last few days I have shown my respect for the Committee and its activities.   Within certain limitations regarding legal assistance which was not available, and when I obtained legal assistance, I was willing to cooperate within the imminent peril which I am experiencing, namely the prejudicing or the infringement of my rights.
 Should these proceedings continue in a public court, I will be prejudiced.  I have seen the documentation provided to the press and this will cause problems overseas, and I can see that in the foreseeable future, they will be in the same circumstances as I am, overseas.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Basson, please recognise that I am still in charge of these proceedings please.

MR BASSON: I am trying to answer your question Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When I draw your attention and interrupt you, I don't mean to be rude, I only - I am meaning to do that which I can only do as a Presiding Officer.  A simple question has been put to you, if on advice, it is a question you are not prepared to reply to, on advice of your lawyers, say so.

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, if I don't pay attention to your interruptions, it is not because I have disrespect for you or not accept your guidance, please ascribe it to my anxiousness to answer the question as best as possible.
 After careful consideration and legal advice, I am not willing to answer questions which are related to those charges by the Attorney General and I cannot answer such questions.  I cannot answer this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Let the record show, that on advice given to him, Dr Wouter Basson refuses to answer the question put to him by Mr Vally.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, just for the record, we have not seen any charge sheet.  What we do have is a letter from the office of the Attorney General which has previously been read into the record, dated the 3rd of June 1998, which talks about provisional charges, which are being investigated against Dr Wouter Basson.

CHAIRPERSON: Charges which may or may not be brought?  I think that document does say so?

MR VALLY: Well, it says in the last paragraph Mr Chairman, "that it must be emphasised that these are provisional charges which are being investigated.
 It is possible that at the conclusion of the investigation, some of these charges may not be preferred against the accused.  It is also possible that further charges may emerge."  That is from Dr J.A. d'Oliviera, Senior Counsel, Attorney General of the Transvaal.
 I did indicate to my learned friend in accordance with our agreement this morning, that if there are areas that he is concerned about which may intrude upon the area of potential charges, we would then address argument to the panel.  In that context I have indicated the issues that I wanted to raise.
 My learned friend was of the view that these impinged on the charges.  I haven't conceded that these were related to the charges.  Our investigation is independent thereof, but as I said not having seen the charge sheet, my learned friend may be correct.
 However, at this stage Mr Chairman, I can continue asking questions, alternatively I would require a ruling from the Chair, as to whether we should simply proceed to lay criminal charges or to bring an application to get Mr Basson before Court on a charge of contempt of the ruling in the Cape Provincial Division of the High Court.  Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you wanting time to consider your options Mr Vally?

MR CILLIERS: Can I just provide additional information to Mr Vally.  I was not involved personally in this discussion ...

CHAIRPERSON: I need to give you time that you can ascertain all of those things.  These proceedings are going to adjourn for ten minutes.  Mr Cilliers and Mr Vally, confer with each other, find exactly what issues you think can still be canvassed.
 Mr Vally consider your position and your options, and you must assemble here not later than twenty five past three.

MR CILLIERS: Thank you Mr Chair.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Mr Vally?  Are we ready to start?  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Yes Mr Chair.  Mr Chairperson, I think we should proceed with asking ...

CHAIRPERSON: If we can close the door to these proceedings please.

MR VALLY: ... questions of Dr Basson in line with the ruling of the Chairperson.  I must apologise to my learned friend, I didn't come back to him after we came back in, but there was nothing to add to our informal discussion.
 Dr Basson, there was a question I had posed to you, if you had any scientific basis whatsoever for believing that dagga, cocaine, Mandrax or ecstasy could be used as incapacitants?

MR CILLIERS: Honourable Chairman, with respect, I don't want to waste time unnecessarily ...

CHAIRPERSON: That is the prerogative of this Chairperson,  whether we waste our time, it is our prerogative.  This witness is now testifying, we have heard all your objections Mr Cilliers, we have ruled in the light of all the positions that you took.
 The time now has come for Dr Wouter Basson to testify or to exercise his rights in line with your advice to him.
I actually order him to answer the question in any how.  It is an order, it is a ruling.

MR CILLIERS: Honourable Chairman, the answer he is going to give is a standard answer.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you are veering on content.  You are veering on content.  With great respect, you are an Officer of the Court, we have made a ruling, he is the one who is testifying.
 He is the one who is testifying, don't testify on his behalf.  We have had a cordial relationship thus far Mr Cilliers, I would like to maintain it that way with respect.  I am no trying to curtail your rights as an Officer of the Court, but we have made a ruling, let's go through the motions if this is what you see it as.  I am quite content to go through the motions.
 Dr Wouter Basson, could you answer the question please?

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, my answer remains the same as the previous answer, I have nothing to add.

CHAIRPERSON: So, I take it that you refuse to answer the question?

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I have said I want to cooperate, but find myself in a position after careful consideration and advice, I cannot answer any further questions, until I have had a chance to review the decision regarding the in camera hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Let the record show that Dr Wouter Basson refuses on the grounds given, to answer the question put to him by Mr Vally.  Mr Vally, do you have any more other questions to put to Dr Wouter Basson?

MR VALLY: I do Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please put them.