Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

CHAIRPERSON: You see counsel wants to find out the following:  You told us that the only persons that you saw carrying firearms that night were the individuals that you've mentioned which about two I think it is, but in your affidavit you indicate that people from Umsinga as well also had firearms and you give the number as being, well, the point is that you also mention that there were people from Umsinga who also had machine guns.  In other words, it was not only these two individuals that you mentioned who had firearms but there were other people including the people from Umsinga who had firearms, is that right?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not fully understand whether you meant whether these people were present in the attack or were merely present residing at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: You gave us two individuals who you say had firearms, okay.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from those two individuals were there any persons in the group that attacked Boipatong who had firearms?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, there were other people who had guns but I cannot say who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were other individuals?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, there were but I don't know who they are because it was at night and I could not see clearly who had what gun.

MR BERGER: But you knew that those people that had the guns were the people from Umsinga.

MR MTHEMBU: Not only the people from Umsinga were launching the attack but many of us from the hostel were also part of this attack.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, in paragraph 6 you state as a fact that the people from Umsinga were holding AK47's, all of them.

MR LAX: To correct you Mr Berger, he says
"They were holding machine guns like AK47's"
So there might have been other kinds of machine guns but  I just don't want to put wrong words in his mouth.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Lax.
	The people from Umsinga, all of them you saw were holding machine guns?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, you don't understand, not only the people from Umsinga were going out on this attack, that you should know.  We went there in large numbers.  I'm talking here about residents from Kwamadala Hostel, they went out the attack.  I don't know really what it is that you want.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that the only person you saw with an AK47 was Mr Chonco or are you saying that you saw many people carrying AK47's?

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, I am saying here that some of the people in our company had guns but the one person that I saw with an AK47 was Mr Chonco and I therefore cannot answer to other people carrying guns when I did not see the guns.

MR BERGER: Please listen carefully to my question.  Did you that night either before, during or after the attack, see a lot of AK47's?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Where did you see them?

MR MTHEMBU: At the stadium.

MR BERGER: Who was carrying them?

MR MTHEMBU: They were on the ground, nobody was carrying them.
END OF TAPE - POSSIBLE WORDS LOST

MR MTHEMBU: They were sprinkled with some traditional medicine and others took the guns away and we went out on the attack.

MR BERGER: Who took the guns when you went out on the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not have knowledge of that Sir.

MR BERGER: There were people that you saw taking these guns but you don't know who they were, is that what you're saying?

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, I am trying to explain here that as the people were leaving the stadium to go and attack I was also concentrating on what I had to do.

MR BERGER: Let me come back to the beginning then Mr Mthembu.  Why when I asked you whether you saw anybody carrying a firearm that night, either before, during or after the attack, did you not mention the men from Umsinga who you saw holding machine guns?  Why didn't you mention that?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't know really what you want me to say now.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'm putting to you once again that you are deliberately being selective with what you disclose.  You are deliberately holding back relevant information relating to the Boipatong attack.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I came before this Commission here because I want reconciliation between myself and the residents of Boipatong.  There is nothing else that I am holding back.  I am just disclosing here what information I have.

MR BERGER: When I asked you to disclose the various committees to the Committee, the various committees at Kwamadala, you mentioned the Senior Committee, you mentioned the Youth Committee, we've now dealt with the hitsquads, I want to ask you about another committee, the Amabutho, do you know about them?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't know them.

MR BERGER: Have you heard the word: "Amabutho"?

MR MTHEMBU: I did hear the name before back home.  There is a place where these Amabutho gather.

MR BERGER: Is that the only meaning that you can attach to the word: "Amabutho", it's a place where certain people gather in Natal?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: You don't know that Amabutho means warriors?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, is Zulu not your mother tongue?

MR MTHEMBU: It is.

MR BERGER: Do you know Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he not the leader of the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't know whether he was a leader or not.

MR BERGER: Was he a member of the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't know Sir.  As I have explained, I really don't know whether he was a member or not.  It was not my duty to know what he was and what he was not.

MR BERGER: Were you a member of the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have explained Sir, that I was a member of the youth.

MR BERGER: Do I understand your evidence that you know absolutely nothing about the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I don't have knowledge to that effect.

MR BERGER: And if Mr Mkhize says that the Amabutho are a senior committee of the IFP, you will say you know nothing about that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I know nothing about this.

MR BERGER: And if he says that Mr Damarra Chonco was a member of the Amabutho you have no knowledge of that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a committee in Kwamadala which was referred to as the Senior Committee, were you aware of that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I know that.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the Zulu word for that Committee?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't have a word or a name.  I don't know how to put it.  I don't have an alternative in isiZulu.  It was a Senior Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I do understand ...[intervention]

MR MTHEMBU: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: Is that how it was referred to, ...[indistinct]?

MR MTHEMBU: I am referring to it as a Senior Committee.  For example when a meeting was to be held these are the people who had to give us permission.

CHAIRPERSON: It didn't have any specific name apart from being referred to as a Senior Committee?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't have knowledge.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence that Mr Mkhize was not a leader in the hostel, Bhekinkosi Mkhize?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't understand Sir.

MR BERGER: You remember yesterday I asked you for the names of the leaders in the hostel.  You told the Committee that Mr Khumalo and Mr Vanana Zulu were the leaders of the Senior Committee, you told the Committee that Mr Buthelezi, Mr Mthembu, yourself, and Ntzwee were the leaders of the Youth Committee.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: According to you there are no other committees, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I don't know of any other committee.

MR BERGER: So I'm asking you, is it your evidence that Mr Mkhize was not a leader within the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: No, he was not or no, that was not your evidence?

MR MTHEMBU: I mean as far as I know yesterday I mentioned people's names whom I knew were in the committee.

MR BERGER: And you know Mr Mkhize?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I know him.