Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't know if I would have done it if the Commissioner of Police had made different recommendations, Mr Chairman.  Because my instructions come from my immediate seniors, who I assumed worked for the Commissioner of Police.
	I never knew about the memorandum that the Commissioner drew up.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, if there was a conflict of instructions as between the Commissioner or Minister and your immediate superiors, whose instructions would you follow?

MR J VAN ZYL: If I knew about the conflict, Mr Chairman, I would definitely have not carried out the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget about the actual instruction.
	Whose instruction would you respect?

MR J VAN ZYL: If I knew that there was a conflict between my immediate superiors' instruction and that of the Commissioner, I would not have carried out the operation because then I knew that I would be asking for trouble.
	Mr Chairman, I can also not imagine that if there was a conflict between the Commissioner of Police and Colonel Snyman, Colonel Snyman or my superiors, would have carried out an instruction in conflict with his wishes or orders.

GEORGE BIZOS: As early as the 6th June, according to exhibit "G", the affidavit of Geldenhuys
	"Rondom Meneer Goniwe het daar a potensiele belange botsing ontstaan tussen die Departement van Onderwys en Opleiding aan die eenkant, en die veiligheids gemeenskap aan die ander kant".
	How could there have been this conflict - it's in paragraph 4 of exhibit "G", Mr Chairman.  How could the fact that there was this conflict about a person that you had been given a special task, have been kept from you?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this person refers to a potential clash of interests.  He doesn't refer to a definite clash.  And I definitely had no knowledge of such a potential clash.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was, why and by whom, and why would this be kept a secret from you?

MR J VAN ZYL: I wasn't aware of a clash like this, Mr Chairman.  And this person says that there is a potential clash.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, yes he uses - but we know what the clash was from the rest of the document.  Whether he should be re-appointed or not.

MR J VAN ZYL: I was not aware of any clash at the time between the authorities, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Bear with me for one moment please, Mr Chairman.
	I'm sorry, I can't locate a document for one moment Sir.  It has been waylaid.  I must have a document before I put....

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, while my learned friend is looking for that document, and not in order to interrupt his train of thought.  The Geldenhuys statement we have got has a page missing.  We have got up to paragraph 8 which runs partial and then on page 2 and then paragraph 4.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, you say you have got up to paragraph 8 that is incomplete and that's your last page.

MR BOOYENS: No.  Page 3 is missing.  We've got a page 4, but we haven't got a page 3 of the Geldenhuys statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I'm sorry for that.  But we will put it right during the adjournment.
	Now you have been given a copy of Mr van Jaarsveld's statement insofar as it relates to Mr Goniwe. This appears on page 277 in the second volume of the documents prepared by Counsel for the Commission, Mr Chairman.  
	You recall that I asked you what discussions there were about the possibility of putting Mr Goniwe to death, and you said that there were such discussions but you could not remember when or where or precisely whether they were during 1984 or 1985.  Do you recall that?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, did you ever get any suggestion coming from Pretoria Head Office that they were looking into the question of the elimination of Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember that.  I have seen this statement from Mr van Jaarsveld in which he is not sure whether it was me that he had spoken to.  I do not recall such a person or such a meeting or driving to Cradock with him.
	It looks a bit vague to me, and if I had remembered it, I would have definitely mentioned it because it cannot change anything to my case, as far as I can remember.  I really cannot remember this incident.

GEORGE BIZOS: But it also tends to show a number of things.
	The fact that you do not have a recollection.  Firstly that it might have happened and that you don't remember.

MR J VAN ZYL: There is a remote possibility, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Although remote, there is a possibility?
	May I just have a word with Counsel for the State?
	That talk about putting Goniwe to death was not a matter which started when you were called in by your superior officer Van Rensburg. There was talk about it before.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, but the operation started after the conversation with Colonel van Rensburg.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, the planning of a specific operation.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

GEORGE BIZOS: But there were suggestions before, and once you concede the possibility, you do not exclude the possibility that the orders came from above.  From somebody sent from head office down here?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And although no date is mentioned in this document, there is an event of the smashing of the windscreen of a person named - this Janet Cherry.  And she has reason to remember the date well.  Is it possible that this suggestion was made as early as March 1984?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember when it was Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you would not exclude the possibility that what you call talk or loose talk about the killing of Mr Goniwe was as early as March 1984.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is  possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you cannot possibly under oath deny the statement of Mr van Jaarsveld as to what happened.  That he was down here for this purpose.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, as I said yesterday, if Mr van Jaarsveld has reported to Colonel Gerrit Erasmus, it could not have happened in 1984, because Colonel Erasmus left at the end of 1983.  Then I could not have been here, because I only arrived here in Port Elizabeth in 1984.  And if the person that he suspects was me, if that was real, then Colonel Erasmus could not have been here.  And that person will be able to tell us when - who was here and who he spoke to, but I cannot recollect that, and I don't know if Colonel Erasmus can recollect that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you in March 1984?

MR J VAN ZYL: I was in Port Elizabeth Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And when did Colonel Erasmus...?

MR J VAN ZYL: Leave?  In December 1983, Mr Chairman.
	I said that yesterday.  It is very confusing to me and if I could remember it, I would have said so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But now, when Colonel Erasmus left, did he come back from time to time?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that he came back even once to Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see your inability to remember whether it happened or not suggests to me that the discussion about killing Goniwe was so common place and so often discussed that that is why you cannot be certain as to whether this happened or not.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this person is much more adamant that he knew Colonel Erasmus.  As he said here, he was the commander of the Port Elizabeth Security Branch. Their offices were in Strand Street, Port Elizabeth.
	Colonel Erasmus was aware of the purpose of our visit.  He can remember that, but he cannot remember that he actually met me.  He suspects that it was one Sakkie van Zyl, and I cannot remember that.  That I met him.  I think it is much more likely that he is confusing me, than he is confusing Colonel Erasmus.  It would seem to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Merely the identity of the people concerned.  That's as far as you are prepared to put it.
	But there was talk at that time about the elimination of Goniwe.

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember speaking to a person like this about this, Mr Chairman.