Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure that the applicant understood that he was only being asked in connection with instructions about matters that appear under paragraph 13.

MR VISSER: May I respond Mr Chairman?  I thought it was made perfectly clear both by myself and yourself, that we were talking about, he was talking about we were told to go and fetch somebody, we were told to assault him and brought him.  I thought that there was no question about it.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, then item 13 - if it relates to the persons being brought from Ladybrand, then I think there may be confusion, because they were told to go and fetch a person - would it be from the police cells or would they go and fetch him from his home?  I would think there could be confusions and perhaps he could clear that up please.

MR VISSER: I will gladly do so, Mr Chairman.  Just those persons, Mr Motsamai, whom you mentioned who were arrested by the Defence Force and brought from Ladybrand, were you personally instructed to fetch any of them from anywhere or were you not so instructed?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained in my statement that I found those people at the office.

MR VISSER: Now, you see the problem which we have here Mr Motsamai, is you've now told us that whenever you had to go and fetch somebody, you were told to assault and harass.  Have I got that right?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The way you put your question, is as if I did not get the command from the people who were there.  The people were already at the office, I was not given the command to go and fetch them, they were fetched by another group that is still affiliated to the Security Branch.
	Let me explain further, I do not believe that were they were found, the Defence Force was given information by our Branch, that the people at Ladybrand, they should be fetched.

MR VISSER: Thank you for the explanation Mr Motsamai.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, for my own peace of mind and understanding, I think I am going to ask the applicant a few questions.  You took part in the assault of this group of people who were being arrested at the border by the South African Defence Force?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you took part in their assault in Bloemfontein at your offices?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who gave you, if there be any person, who gave you the instructions to assault those people?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I said we were given an instruction by Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee.  That was because we wanted to find out from them who was assisting them to cross to Lesotho.
	And who were they going to meet in Lesotho.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were they assaulted on just the one day or were they assaulted on subsequent days?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was not one day.  They were assaulted subsequently.  They were in the hands of the Unit I have referred to.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you personally, take part in the assault on subsequent days, other than the first day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I did not take any part, but we were helping to transport them to the prisons.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, I am going to ask you a question in relation to what you said a few minutes ago which I think confused me a bit.
	When you said you, or rather when you spoke of instructions having come from only Shaw, with what incidents, I mean was it with reference to what incidents?  Do you understand, a few minutes ago you said something like it was only Shaw who had given you instructions, or something to that effect.  What was it about?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The instruction was about the information that we should retrieve from those people.  Information such as who helped them and who was going to help them to skip the country.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It is difficult to ask questions on an issue on which you yourself is not clear.  Maybe Mr Visser can clear that up.  You must have understood better than I did.

MR VISSER: Thank you for the compliment Mr Chairman, but I am afraid I've got to disappoint you, I don't understand it either.
	Perhaps, just one or two questions Mr Motsamai.  In your evidence you simply said at the end of the evidence, in regard to assaults on comrades, that you received the instructions from Lieutenant Shaw, is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR VISSER: In reply to a question by the Chairman, you told the Committee just now that there were many incidents, and you received instructions from many people, is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you then referring to other incidents than the assaults which we are talking about now?  The incident of Winnie Mandela's house and Bholosha and all the other incidents.  Is that what you were referring to when you said there were other people who also gave instructions?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I talked about this particular incident.  Let me explain it well.  When it was the two of them and we are standing on the other side, the other one would give us a certain instruction, then the other one would tell another officer that I see that even this and this you should retrieve from this people.
	When this people was giving us instructions and the other one, the other officer who was telling the other officer what to tell us, so it would be a combined instruction from two people.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Motsamai, I want to put it to you in all fairness to you, that that is brand new evidence which you are now giving us in regard to this incident or these incidents of assault.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am talking in regard to this particular incident about this torture.

CHAIRPERSON: Which incident are you talking about, let's not have any confusion.  Is this the incident about the people whom the Defence Force brought?  Is that the particular incident that you are talking about?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is the incident I am talking about.

MR VISSER: All right, and I want to put it to you specifically in regard to all of the assaults which you refer to under your paragraph 13, you never mentioned for one moment, that Coetzee was involved in giving instructions in either your application or in your evidence.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May I clarify that?

MR VISSER: Well, did you or did you not, that is really the question Mr Motsamai, we do have to move along.  I don't want to stop you from explaining, but the question is a simple one.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained it is Lieutenant Shaw who gave us instructions but because they were in the same office, they were helping each other.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Let me tell you what my instructions are Mr Motsamai.  The group that was transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein, came directly under the command of Captain Du Plooy of the Investigating Unit, certainly not under the members of the Security branch.  Would you agree with that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Captain Du Plooy from where - Branch?

MR VISSER: Don't you know a Captain Du Plooy, that worked in the building where you were a Security Policeman?  Don't you know such a person?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I hear you saying - Captain Du Plooy whom you are talking about, was not with the Security Branch, that is why I am asking.

MR VISSER: You do not know of a Captain Du Plooy who was in charge of the Special Investigation Unit of the Security Branch?  You don't know such a person?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is the one, that is Captain Du Plooy.  But the way you explained it, it seems as if Captain Du Plooy was not working in the Security Branch in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Well, I am sorry if I mislead you Mr Motsamai.  The point is were these people that were brought from Ladybrand not brought to be dealt with by Captain Du Plooy and his Investigation Unit?