Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MS MKHIZE: .... the point regarding the condition of the child.  You said that because you are not employed, the child has never been seen by doctors. Even after Minister Zuma's announcement of free health care, you haven't had an opportunity of the child being seen, or even the school, have they never thought of sending the child to a clinic?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, not as yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much.  I should have asked Mr Cross whether you wanted, after the cross-examination, any points that you wanted to clarify. No?

MR CROSS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, we don't have any points we wish to clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any other?
 Thank you very much, you may step down.
MS DLAMINI EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  We now call Nicodemus Sono and Nomsa Shabalala.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chair, I appear for both Mr Sono and Mrs Shabalala.  It's David Unterhalter, together with Peter Jordi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much.   Order please.

NICODEMUS SONO: (sworn in)

NOMSA SHABALALA: (sworn in)

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Sono, if I might begin with you.  Could you - you are the father of Lolo Sono, is that correct?

NICODEMUS SONO: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could you tell us when you first met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

NICODEMUS SONO: I met Mrs Mandela in 1976 for the first time at the funeral of Hector Petersen.

MR UNTERHALTER: From that time did you meet Mrs Mandela again from time to time?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, I did.  In 1986 my cousin Peter, who was in exile, he came and he asked me to take him to Mrs Mandela's place.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could you just identify your cousin Peter for the Commission please?

NICODEMUS SONO: Peter, it's Frans Tebogo Maluleke.  If I say Tebogo I mention Peter.  If I say Tebogo it's still Peter, he use three names.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  He was a relative of yours?

NICODEMUS SONO: That's correct, he was my cousin.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  Now tell us the circumstances in which he came into South Africa?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, he came in to infiltrate in the country, and he always came to my place because he trusted me that I will help him whenever he come with the comrades from Zambia or Botswana or Tanzania.

MR UNTERHALTER: Was he an MK member?

NICODEMUS SONO: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: You said that he wanted to see Mrs Mandela When would this have been?

NICODEMUS SONO: That was in 1986.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what did you do?

NICODEMUS SONO: Indeed I did take him through to Mrs Mandela's house.

MR UNTERHALTER: And did you meet her again when that happened?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, that time he wanted to see her alone because he said to me he had something to speak to her about, and I waited outside.  He said to me go the third street from here, I will see you in twenty minutes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  Did Mrs Mandela give you any kind of other assistance at this time?

NICODEMUS SONO: Not personally to me by then She was dealing with Peter.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  Now I want to take you to the events in 1988 and particularly the events concerning your son Lolo.  At that time, in early 1988 and in the course of that year, were you aware at all that Lolo was connected with Mrs Mandela or the Football Club?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I was not aware because Peter came in 1988, July the 18th, when he came to my place with Sepo.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes, who is Sepo?

NICODEMUS SONO: Sepo is Peter's comrade who was also from outside the country.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  Now were they staying at your house?

NICODEMUS SONO: That's correct, they were staying at my house.

MR UNTERHALTER: That is Sepo and Peter?

NICODEMUS SONO: Sepo and Peter, yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: And did Lolo meet them at your house whilst they were staying with you?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, Lolo used to hang around with them during the day when I was going to work.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  Now in about September 1988, could you tell us whether Sepo was arrested by the police?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, Sepo was first arrested in August and again in 1988, September, Sepo was picked up by the Security Police of Protea, or just security police, that got him at my house and arrested him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  And what happened after the arrest of Sepo?

NICODEMUS SONO: After Sepo was taken away by the police, it was early hours of the morning, so the next day the boy next door by the name of Richmond, he called me and he said to me please take these things, he mentioned a gun, a hand-grenade and some other material of ammunition that he wanted me to take.  He said this belongs to Sepo.  And when I took that he said to me by the way behind your house too there is some other ammunitions, please remove them.  So what I did I went behind my house where there was a box where I used to hide my tools and things, and I removed that ammunition and, plus the one that the boy has given me over the fence, put them in my car and I drove to Mrs Mandela's house in Diepkloof.

MR UNTERHALTER: Why did you go to Mrs Mandela's house with the arms and ammunition?

NICODEMUS SONO: I went to Mrs Mandela's house because Mrs Mandela knew about the whole thing because I always took Peter and other comrades to Mrs Mandela's house and she knew of me that I am helping these MK cadres.

MR UNTERHALTER: Well, tell us what happened on that day that you took the arms and ammunition to Mrs Mandela's house.

NICODEMUS SONO: When I got to Mrs Mandela's house I parked my vehicle outside and I went in and I spoke to her and she greeted me.

MR UNTERHALTER: How did you she greet you?

NICODEMUS SONO: "Hi, Sono", as usual, and I spoke to her briefly.  I told her that Sepo has been arrested and I brought the guns. By the way I didn't mention the clothing that was in Lolo's bedroom, that was also taken back to Mrs Mandela, then I mentioned that to her.  She said to me wait, let the boys remove the kombi from the garage and you'll park your car inside the garage.  Exactly that happened.  The kombi was driven off out of the garage, parked in a street, and I drove my car into the garage and the ammunition was off-loaded.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  Now what did Mrs Mandela have to say about the arrest of Sepo?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, as I have already mentioned, that Sepo has been arrested. She warned me that I must be careful that the security police will be after me, so I must make sure that I don't come around to her place because I've been watched and if they come to me I must let her know that what they want.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did the police in fact come after you, Mr Sono?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, the police came in October because Sepo was arrested towards the end of September. Two weeks in October the police came to me. They left a notice that I must come and see them at Protea police station, the security branch.  So Mrs Mandela has given me her telephone number. I tried to contact her at her home, I couldn't get through.  The next thing that I did I risked - I went to Mrs Mandela and she told me it is dangerous but I must come and see her concerning that, and she gave me an address of Main Street to go and see her lawyers so that they can be able to help me and give me advice.
 So indeed I went to the lawyers in Main Street, who was Ismail Ayob, and I went in there. They attended to me,  I told them what happened and they said to me, please, go to those police but don't make a statement. Tell them you want your lawyer.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mrs Mandela, when she told you to go and speak to the attorneys, Ismail Ayob, did this conversation take place on the telephone or did you meet with her again for this purpose?