Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Yes, I would be able to see it.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Now, if you were able to see, you would be able to see a car, if you were that distance, what made you not be able to see if there were people who came out of the truck at that place where it was standing?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I could not see, because the truck was in a road in the forest.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Can you be able to say that there is only one road where you were?   Are there no other roads which are joining that same road on which you saw the truck travelling?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No, no other roads.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Are you - were there any other cars before the truck went through that road, did you see any other cars in the road?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No, none.

MR MBANDAZAYA: So you did not see the cars, or there were no other cars which passed through that road?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No, no cars.

MR MBANDAZAYA: You said that this car travelled to the direction of Nqobo, the truck, after it left the forest, am I correct?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Where you were, in the position where you were, where do you join the road to Idutwa, do you have first to go to Nqobo direction or do you have to go somewhere, to other direction?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: When you leave where I was, you first have to pass Clarkbury School and then you get a road that shows Idutwa.

MR MBANDAZAYA: So what you are telling the committee is that you have first to go to direction of Nqobo before you can to go Idutwa, because they are in the opposite directions, Idutwa and Nqobo?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYA: I heard you saying that you were almost two kilometres, if I'm not mistaken, from where the truck was standing.   Was I correct to say that?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Then it must be quite - a very long distance, if your estimation is right?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No question was asked, it was a statement, so... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Are you wanting him to agree with you, Mr Mbandazaya?

MR MBANDAZAYA: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, do you want him to confirm that?

MR MBANDAZAYA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I agree.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Okay.   Was it here a mistake when you said in your statement it was about a kilometre away from you, when you told the police about this incident?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: It was not a mistake.

MR MBANDAZAYA: And also it's not a mistake to say it was about two kilometres away?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: It is not a mistake.

MR MBANDAZAYA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makase, you were at work on that day, weren't you?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What time you had you started work?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I used to start at 8:00 in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you stopped for anything to eat at midday?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you'd been working non-stop since 8:00?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Yes, because I'm working for myself.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were building a tank stand?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this, I take it, necessitated you moving around, working from different places, getting the plant and equipment, putting it in position?   Is that so?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No, all of them are in my immediate vicinity.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you have to fit them into place?   A tank stand just doesn't jump into position, does it?   You have to make it?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's what you were doing, and because you were working for yourself, you were doing it as quickly as you could?   You agree with that?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS GCABASHE: Mr Makase, if a motor vehicle had come down that road and made a U turn where the truck stopped, would you have seen that car?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Yes, I would have seen it.

MS GCABASHE: Are you saying that the entire road was clear from where you were working, all the way back from the place where the truck had stopped, even beyond it, going backwards?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

MS GCABASHE: And at about what time was this, roughly, when this truck stopped and then passed you a few minutes later?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: It was after lunch.

MS GCABASHE: And then the point Mr Mbandazaya was making about one kilometre and two kilometres, can you assist us with that?    Exactly how far were you from this truck, the point where it stopped before it moved forward?   It can't be one and two kilometres?   Just estimate?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I'm approximating it at two kilometres.

MS GCABASHE: Now I'm not very good with distances, but to me two kilometres is a long way to be able to identify a particular motor vehicle.   Please help me with that.   Are you saying that at two kilometres, which I would say is way - you know if you had to drive up this road, quite a long way, you could identify a particular motor vehicle?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I could see clearly there, because the road that that truck used is high up in terms of altitude, from where I was standing.

MS GCABASHE: Are you saying that you could see it was some kind of motor vehicle, but you didn't know what type of motor vehicle until it passed you?   I'm just trying to piece things together here, to understand this.

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I could see that it is a truck.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you see what sort of truck it was?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I could see that it was a white truck.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you see more than that, could you recognise the truck?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No, I could not point out any detail about what type or what model and that type of thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know whose truck it was?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: No, I did not know, but it used to pass where we were as we were working there.

MS GCABASHE: But when did you actually recognise that it was a truck that you knew, when it had stopped or when it passed you?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: It was when it was coming towards me.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Makase, no further questions.

MR SANDI: Mr Makase, when you say you saw this truck, do you mean to say that you could see the entire body of the truck, or just certain parts of the truck?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I could only see certain portions of the truck.

MR SANDI: Which portions were those that you could see?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: The upper portion of the truck, as there were trees in that vicinity next to the road.

MR SANDI: Is that to say that you were only able to see the top of the truck?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Correct.

MR SANDI: Now, if this was a much smaller vehicle than the truck, do you think you would have been able to see it, of the top of such a small vehicle?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I would only see the top of that car.

MR SANDI: If, let me explain my question, if it was just a small bakkie, would you have been able to see it?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Yes.

MR SANDI: I see from your statement that you say you did not see anybody alighting from the truck.   What was preventing you from seeing a person coming out of the truck?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: What may have made me not to see anybody alighting is because I did not concentrate, I was busy with my work, I only heard those shots in that forest, I did not see anybody alighting from that vehicle.

MR SANDI: Oh, I see.   You were not really concerned about this truck and what was happening.   I thought you were focusing and concentrating on this truck all the time?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: I did not concentrate on that truck all the time.

MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Makase.   Sorry, before that truck came there, were you focusing and concentrating on what was happening on that particular part of the road?

ZWELIMBANSE MAKASE: Yes, I was concentrating as I saw that truck as it was coming to pass me.