Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, can I clarify what I meant?  I think we, there was a misunderstanding.  What I meant is not that he did not understand the structure, but what I said is reading from the application when asked who gave the order and he says John Radebe, and he doesn't say for example here Bonga Khumalo, he, what I'm suggesting is, it's the question to me that is not properly understood as to who exactly was he supposed to mention.
	Nevertheless on the same breath I do acknowledge the fact that if there was that problem maybe it would have been better for him to mention the three of them because it does mention John Radebe as the second in command, he does mention Bonga Khumalo and maybe it would have been proper if he mentioned Mabusa Mhlongo as well.  So, what I was saying is that the misunderstanding is on the question and the answer as to who really the commander was, because Bonga Khumalo was a commander, but not of the unit, so it's not far fetched from what he said, that Bonga Khumalo was a commander.  The only mistake is that he says he's a commander of the unit and not of the whole structure, and it's not too far fetched from the fact that he says John Radebe was the second in command.  I think that the problem is that he says second in command to Bonga Khumalo and not Mabusa Mhlongo.  That's what I meant, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to the fact that he was the long serving member in that unit?  Do you still say that he would still be liable to mistakes as to who is his commander?  He was there much longer than Mr Radebe.

MS THABETHE: It's a difficult one but Madam Chair, I think as a member of an SDU he would be expected to know who his commander is.  At the same time, like my learned friend has said, he seemingly was young, and even 'though he might have been long standing as compared to Radebe, but probably Radebe was more experienced than Mr Mkhwanazi with relation to the activities and the structures and the whole, you know, how the SDU activities were operated and whatever.  So what I'm saying is even 'though Mr Radebe could have been the last one to get into the structure, probably he was much more experienced than Mkhwanazi, but that's just an argument, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to you Ms Thabethe and Ms Moloisane.  You obviously are aware that the time is now 9 o'clock.  We have kept correctional services much longer and we are really indebted to their accommodation with regard to the time.  We have kept Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi much longer, it's been a very long day for them as well.  I think we should bring these proceedings to a close now that you have concluded your legal argument.  The hearings also at this venue will now come to a close tonight.
	We thank Ms Moloisane and Ms Thabethe for their assistance that they have rendered to the Panel.  We also are eternally grateful to members of the Department of Correctional Services for their accommodation which has been just wonderful. 	We wish to thank our interpreters who have really been more than accommodative.  It is a very difficult thing to translate simultaneously.  It requires focus, it requires attention, and it tires one very easily.  They have been able to accommodate us throughout the week because we have had to stay much longer than we usually do in order to try and finish our roll that was set down for this venue.  
	We also wish to express our warm gratitude to the media who equally have been extremely accommodative.  Our gratitude to our logistics officer Ntheki for the wonderful logistical support that she has offered us during our stay at this venue.  I wish to thank the members of the public who are now absent because of the lateness of the hour.  They had to leave early because they are from Sebokeng and surrounding districts, and lastly I would like to thank the Members of my Panel for the accommodation that they also gave this matter.  It is very difficult to sit, listen, be focused, write notes, as a Committee and their assistance and participation in these proceedings have been indescribable.  Thank you very much.  Without forgetting the wonderful service which is always offered by our transcribers.  They have been also very accommodative.  Thank you very much to you all.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.
HEARING ADJOURNS