Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MR SMIT: That's correct, it was para-military civil organisation, nothing to do with the government or the army.

MR BRACHER: Did you have discipline, army discipline?

MR SMIT: Yes, we maintained discipline.

MR BRACHER: How many chains of command?

MR SMIT: It depends in which division of the AWB or Ystergarde.

MR BRACHER: Ystergardes.

MR SMIT: From the Colonel, who was Leon van der Merwe at that stage, right through to Lieutenant.

MR BRACHER: Did you have a chain of command?  I mean a junior officer wouldn't argue with a senior officer?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: Some of the witnesses spoke about "Christelike norme en standaarde", did you use those in your army?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MR BRACHER: Did you apply the Geneva Convention to your war?

MR SMIT: I don't know exactly what is contained within the Geneva Convention.

MR BRACHER: One of the things the Geneva Convention doesn't permit is the targeting of civilian targets only.

MR SMIT: Well that is a foreign idea.  In my mind there were no innocent people.

MR BRACHER: Tell me, who trained in the use of explosives, who did the training in the use of explosives?

MR SMIT: I can't remember the name at this stage.  There was training in various areas by various people.

MR BRACHER: You don't know of anybody who did such training, that you can name today?

MR SMIT: Yes, Chris van der Heever is one of the persons who provided explosives training.

MR BRACHER: Is that the Brigadier you're talking about?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: And who - do you know of anybody who was trained in the use of explosives?

MR SMIT: Among others, Chris van der Heever, yes.

MR BRACHER: No, who received training, anybody that you know?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Now I want to go back to these meetings where the targets were chose.  Who gave instructions about what targets were chosen?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo gave those instructions via top structure and Eugene Terreblanche.

MR BRACHER: No, don't worry about what you heard about.  Who did you hear giving instructions about the choosing of targets?

MR SMIT: Repeat the question please.

MR BRACHER: Who did you personally hear giving instructions about the choice of targets?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: Anybody else?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: And what exactly did he say the target should be?

MR SMIT: It's very difficult to say exactly what he said but he said soft targets, preferably taxi ranks and bus stops.

MR BRACHER: Who did he gave those instructions to?  Who did you hear him give those instructions to?

MR SMIT: In these closed meetings mention was made of names which I mentioned earlier.

MR BRACHER: Is that the only time you heard him give the instructions?

MR SMIT: Just give me a chance.  After that on the stoep the rest of the group gathered and Koper Myburgh demonstrated the bombs.

MR BRACHER: Who spoke at that meeting?  Koper Myburgh?

MR SMIT: Koper Myburgh gave the demonstration of the bomb there, Nico Prinsloo gave the targets.  He didn't say: "Go and blow Boksburg taxi rank, he said: "Go and blow up a place in Boksburg", whether it was a taxi rank, a station or a bus stop it didn't matter.

MR BRACHER: Did he mention Boksburg?

MR SMIT: No, I just take it as an example.

MR BRACHER: Did he not mention Boksburg?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR BRACHER: Did he mention specific ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have decided then that Boksburg, the taxi rank in Boksburg would have been a target?

MR SMIT: Please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have decided on that?

MR SMIT: Decided on what?

CHAIRPERSON: That the taxi rank in Boksburg should be a target.

MR SMIT: I assuming the generals and staff, those who would have attended the planning phase of this entire operation.

CHAIRPERSON: The is question is aimed at trying to determine who would have told those who planted the bombs to place a bomb at the taxi rank in Boksburg specifically.

MR SMIT: If that order had to be given it would have been given by Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: You didn't hear that instruction being given?

MR SMIT: Not at all, no.

MR BRACHER: To this day you don't know who was responsible for the Bree Street bomb in Johannesburg?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Just tell me exactly what you know about the Boksburg bomb and when you first heard.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like for Mr Bracher to indicate, the Boksburg bomb, to which incident exactly are you referring?

MR BRACHER: Sorry, it's Germiston bomb.

MR SMIT: I don't have all my facts together regarding which bomb was planted where and whether it was a trailer bomb or a pipe bomb, so if you could just give me a bit more clarity regarding that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MR SMIT: I would just like to ask, if it's a pipe bomb then it would have been on that evening that the pipe bombs left the farm.

MR BRACHER: The trailer bomb, what do you know about the trailer bomb?  Where did that go off?

MR SMIT: Germiston.

MR BRACHER: Now when did you first hear about that?

MR SMIT: I heard about that when volunteers were asked to go and plant the bomb, and Jan de Wet and he said that he would use his own vehicle.

MR BRACHER: Now when did that happen?

MR SMIT: I'm not entirely sure.

MR BRACHER: Well you remember hearing him, where did you hear him, what meeting or what place?

MR SMIT: It was on the game farm.  I'm not certain but it could have been on the evening that the pipe bombs left the farm.  That is when the volunteers had been requested.

MR BRACHER: Is this in the public meeting on the stoep, the open meeting?

MR SMIT: The whole thing began with Barnard in the closed meeting and then led to the open meeting on the stoep.

MR BRACHER: So they would have asked for volunteers at the meeting on the stoep and Jan de Wet stepped forward, is that your evidence?

MR SMIT: That is correct, just as all the volunteers of the pipe bombs were asked there as well.

MR BRACHER: I'm talking about the trailer bomb, don't get the "pyp bomme" mixed up with this.

MR SMIT: That's correct, all the volunteers were asked that evening on that stoep.

MR BRACHER: But we know Mr Vlok wasn't there, he was involved in one of the bombs.

MR SMIT: I can't testify regarding who was there and who wasn't there at that stage.  I know of certain people who were there ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: Who called for volunteers??

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: You say Nico Prinsloo went out and addressed the gathering and said: "I want volunteers for a trailer bomb", and Jan de Wet stepped forward?

MR SMIT: No, I never said that he wanted volunteers for a trailer bomb attack, he addressed the meeting on the stoep and asked for volunteers to throw bombs.  They were looking for a vehicle which could draw a trailer for the trailer bomb and Jan de Wet was someone who had a vehicle that had a towbar on.

MR BRACHER: I don't understand your evidence.  Was a trailer bomb mentioned in this gathering on the stoep?  Did they ask for volunteers?  Otherwise, where did it take place?

MR SMIT: All that I can say is that the volunteers, according to my knowledge, for all bomb attacks were requested on the stoep.

MR BRACHER: Yes, but you say: "So ver dit my kennis strek", did you hear it happening, did you see Jan de Wet volunteer, did you see Prinsloo ask him to, asking for trailer bomb volunteers or was not of that actually seen and heard by you?

MR SMIT: Okay, I was inside the hall and we were still busy with radio communications, the establishment thereof.  I heard everything which happened.  I just heard that de Wet said that he would be driving his own car.

MR BRACHER: Did you hear somebody asking him to volunteer for a trailer bomb and who was it and where was it?