Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They were killed because they were members of Inkatha and we heard of what they were doing, taking information from the community to where they were staying.  Now this was not comfortable to us.

MR LAX: Just repeat the last part of your answer, I didn't catch it all.  As the Chairperson asked you previously, you need to go a little bit slowly otherwise we can't get everything down.  It will help us a great deal if you just speak a little bit more slowly, please.  You said that they were - the translation was "they were killed because they were members of the IFP, taking information", and then I couldn't keep up with the rest, so just repeat.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They took the information to the party they belonged to.

MR LAX: What information?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: There were people who were targeted by Inkatha, the people of the township.  They are the ones who took the targeted people's names to the IFP, as to where they stay and what their names are.

MR LAX: And where did they take it to, IFP where, or what?  Where was this that they were taking this information to?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They took it to Madala Hostel.  This was a hostel occupied by Inkatha at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a serious interference with our headphones.

MR LAX: Please carry on, sorry.

MS MOLOISANE: Is that all that you wanted to add to your affidavit, to what you have already stated in your affidavit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Even at the affidavit some of the issues I did not add and I wanted to orally present them before this Committee.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there still something ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here if you don't mind, Ms Moloisane, before you continue I just want clarity on one matter please.
	You said that you got the information from Neti, what's happened to him, do you know at all, where is he?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He is in prison, Groenpunt Prison.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know whether he's applied for amnesty?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Have you spoken to him recently, were you in the same prison at all?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: After the sentence we separated.

ADV BOSMAN: You haven't seen him since?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I haven't seen him since.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there still something that you still want to add?

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of what, which part of the ...(intervention)?

MS MOLOISANE: In respect to the incident that led to the death of Hapile Ndumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you even go any further, are you happy having regard to the documents before us, of the reasons or one reason at least, advanced by Mr Mkhwanazi of why Ms Hapile Ndumo was killed?  Are you happy with that response, having regard to all the documents before us, in particular the supplementary affidavit?  Are you happy with his response?  Your question was, why was Hapile Ndumo killed and the evidence before us, at least in viva voce, is that she was killed because she and others took information, sensitive information to the parties that they belonged to, are you happy with that response?

MS MOLOISANE: I am happy, Madam Chair, because this is just in addition to what is stated.  The reasons were already stated in the supplementary affidavit, but that was in addition thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: I have not understood your question to exclude the reason stated in the affidavit, that's not how I understood your question.  I thought you really wanted him to explain why Ms Ndumo was killed, which explanation would include the reasons given in the supplementary affidavit.

MS MOLOISANE: Paragraph 3.5 and 3.6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I was actually looking at paragraph 4.13.  However, if you feel that it's something that can be argued further, you may leave it.

MS MOLOISANE: Paragraph 4.?

CHAIRPERSON: 13 of his supplementary affidavit.

MS MOLOISANE: I have 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3.

CHAIRPERSON: 4.13.

MS MOLOISANE: Oh, 4.13?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Besides that these crimes were committed in concert with John Radebe?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Ma'am, just have recourse to 4.13 and the question that you put to Mr Mkhwanazi: "Why was Hapile Ndumo killed?"  I do not understand your question to confine the witness only to what is not included in the supplementary affidavit, that is not how I understand your question.  I understand your question to elicit fuller information, his understanding as to why there was a need to have Ms Ndumo killed.  Now in terms of 4.13, another reason has been advanced.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, shall you read ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The reason advanced under 4.13 is that he was acting on the orders of Mr Radebe, is it not so?

MS MOLOISANE: Oh, in that context I understand.  Shall I put it to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Well we would be happy to understand how that should be understood in relation to his viva voce evidence now, that the reason why they killed her was because they already knew that they were spying for the IFP, and organisation to which they are alleged to have belonged.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases, Madam Chair.
	Now in paragraph 4.13 of your supplementary affidavit you stated that, I read:
"I must state that these offences or crimes were committed in concert, and that John Radebe was my senior and ...(indistinct) gave us orders on that day."
Would you clarify that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, I can clarify.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We were not in the same position within the unit, he was my senior.  If the commander was not present and there were orders that were to be taken out, he would do that.  I took some of the orders from him.  That is why on the 15th he was in a position to issue out an order.

MS MOLOISANE: What was the order that he gave you?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That these people must be taken to Zone 12 and be questioned about their work and the decision as to what will happen to them.

MS MOLOISANE: Where in particular in Zone 12 were you to take these people to?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We were going to take them to the sub-branch of the ANC Youth League.  We were going to take them there so that they be questioned.

MS MOLOISANE: And what did you do?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We did not manage to take them with because Elsie Mokoena did not agree with what John Radebe told her, which is we should go to Zone 12.  It happened then that the decision was taken there and then that these people be killed.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there still something that you would like to add?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Ms Moloisane.
	Are you saying that the order that was issued by Mr Radebe that day, was only that the ladies must be taken to Zone 12 for questioning?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he didn't issue an order that they should be killed after questioning?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: The issue of killing came after Elsie refused to agree with what John Radebe was telling her.  Elsie was very adamant, John pulled out the gun and shot her.  The decision was taken then, there and then that they be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the decision to kill them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an order or an decision or you don't draw any distinction between the two?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I would not say it was a decision, it was an order from him that these people be killed.  He was my senior and it so happened that on that day he issued that order of killing these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Moloisane, I just needed to clarify that issue.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in before you continue, thank you.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, how old were you at the time?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was 15.

ADV BOSMAN: Now John Radebe was more or less the same age, is it not so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, more or less the same.  He was a year older than me.