Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Buyafuti, I don't know exactly where he came from, but he opened businesses in Sterkspruit.  I can't quite remember whether it was before independence or just after independence, but he opened businesses in Sterkspruit.  He acquired property and he then got into business and he was selling groceries.  A little while later he was selling building material, and he was involved in a butchery.

ADV PRIOR: Did he have any business associates or any partners in any of his business interests?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, he was a partner with Mr Hatting.

ADV PRIOR: In what line?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: In the butchery, as well as the building material outlet.

ADV PRIOR: Now did you know Mr Hatting at that  stage?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, I've known Mr Hatting all my life.

ADV PRIOR: And was Mr Hatting always in business, or what was his profession before that?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Mr Hatting is a farmer from the Lady Grey area, a very big farmer.  His main interest I believe is in the farming profession in Lady Grey area.

ADV PRIOR: Now Mr Buyafuti, did you know his political persuasion at that time?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, I think everybody knew his political persuasion.  If you have to take the Herschel district it's probably about a 40 kilometre radius, a little homeland surrounded by Zastron area, the Free State on the one side, Lesotho on the other, the North Eastern Cape on the other side, and basically everybody in the Herschel district knows everybody, it's a very small community in terms of South Africa, or if you look at the large part of the Transkei, so being a small little area everybody knows everybody, everybody's in some way related to everybody else because of marriage in that area.  So yes, I knew Mr Tsembeye(?) and I knew his political feelings at that time.

ADV PRIOR: And what were they?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well he was basically anti-white, with the APLA group.

ADV PRIOR: Did you have any difficulties or any problems with Buyafuti at any time up until, well before these attacks had occurred in your area during 1992?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.  I did not basically associate myself with Buyafuti, I never had any dealings with him and did not want to have any dealings with him.

ADV PRIOR: I mention this name to you at this stage, it may later be significant, Mr Kleinbooi, did you know him?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think he was, if it's the same, Kleinbooi, no sorry I'm confused with Swartbooi.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, Swartbooi, I beg your pardon, Mr Swartbooi.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, he was the First National Bank  Manager.

ADV PRIOR: In Sterkspruit?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: In Sterkspruit.

ADV PRIOR: Was his political persuasion, or political inclination known?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.  He was also part of the APLA group.

ADV PRIOR: Now it's common cause that during 1992 serious problems arose in the Sterkspruit area which culminated in several attacks alongside the road, particularly between Lady Grey and Herschel, on the road to Sterkspruit, and on the Zastron side at the Mayaphuti Bridge, were you aware of those incidents?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, very much so.

ADV PRIOR: Now up until the commencement of those attacks, as far as you can recall, were there any problems in that order, regarding violence on the community or members of the community, before those attacks commenced?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Sorry, can you just repeat that?

ADV PRIOR: Were there any incidents of violence where you had attacks on innocent people, either travellers, persons on the road or anything of that nature, before these incidents started occurring?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

ADV PRIOR: And I'm not referring to the normal, if there was any theft or housebreaking or stock thefts, I'm not referring to those incidents, but incidents of violence which was sort of out of the ordinary.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well Herschel has sort of got a reputation of being a fairly peaceful area.  Other than these happenings that happened it's back to that type of atmosphere, it's a pretty peaceful area.

ADV PRIOR: Ms Tsemane on behalf of her father who was killed, gave evidence in Aliwal North and my sense of her evidence was that certainly before these attacks there was a certain harmony between the black people and the white people working in Sterkspruit.  Are you able to comment on that?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, that is so.  Well in fact most of the Transkei one could look at it that way.  I mentioned earlier that in the old days, 30, 40, 50 years ago, the white trader was allowed to, had the privilege of having trading stations as we used to call them, and basically that white trader used to be the doctor, the post office, the bank, so there was always a very good relationship between the old Transkei Trader and the local population.  There was always a good harmony, because in order to succeed in business at those times, it was very important that the local community support you, so there was always a very good relationship between the local and the white trader.

ADV PRIOR: I want you just to briefly, apart from your own business interests which were, you indicated four, did you know a Mr van Rooyen?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: He had the bakery in Sterkspruit, is that correct?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know a Mr Fransisco?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Was he employed by Mr van Rooyen?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, also in the bakery.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know the deceased, Mr Tsemane?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, very well.

ADV PRIOR: We have heard evidence that he was employed in van Rooyen's bakery, is that correct?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so.  He also used to work for our family.  He worked for my cousin in the same bakery before it was sold.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know Mr le Roux?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I can't recall.

ADV PRIOR: From the hotel.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I can't recall that name.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know Mr Tjaart Vorster?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: What was his line of work?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Tjaart Vorster was ex-police, a farmer lately, well more recently a farmer and a businessman in the Lady Grey area.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Hans Myburgh?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, a farmer from the Lady Grey area.

ADV PRIOR: Would he be a neighbour to Mr Hatting, or not, or in a different area?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I don't think you could call them neighbours, there's probably about 20 kilometres separating Mr Hatting's farm ...

ADV PRIOR: From your own knowledge, did any of these persons that I've mentioned, did they have any problems during that period of 1992?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I'm aware of Mr Myburgh's farm being burnt.

ADV PRIOR: In fact he had two properties burnt, is that correct?  One was a cattle post.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I know of Mr Myburgh's farm being, his house being burnt.  I did not involve myself too much with the politics at that stage.  I know that Mr Vorster's shed was burnt down with Lucerne, but I can't tell you very much ...(intervention)

ADV PRIOR: Mr van Rooyen ...

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: ... other than that.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.  So at least Mr Vorster and Mr Myburgh you were aware had damage to their farms?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That's right.  Mr van Rooyen who owned the bakery, I think possibly that was one of the first attack that took place where either a bomb was thrown at his car, but there were, I think there could have been two attacks on Mr van Rooyen on his way to work.