Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: What did you call that passage?  Did it have a name, for instance: Peace Street or whatever?

MR MMELESI: This passage did not have a name, Sir.  The only thing that was there was a sticker put on the wall and I do not know who put that sticker there.  I call it a passage, it did not have a name.  The sticker was called Violent Street but that was not the name of that passage.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the sticker in your passage or did it point towards the other passage?

MR MMELESI: That is correct, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: It can't be correct because I've asked you was the sticker in your passage or did it point towards the other passage?

MR MMELESI: Sir, I explained that there were two passages, there's a door, there's a passage going to the right and the other one going to the left.

ADV DE JAGER: The sticker, was it pointing to the passage going to the right?

MR MMELESI: The passage to the left when you were going to the kitchen.

MR STANDER: Did you ever enquire about this sticker on the door on the wall?

MR MMELESI: No Sir. I tried to ask what was happening with that sticker but no-one gave me a clear indication of why the sticker was put on the wall. All the members could see that, I do not know whether the sticker is still there or not.

MR STANDER: You didn't go to any trouble to remove it because according to your testimony it had no meaning whatsoever. Do I understand you correctly?

MR MMELESI: I do not know, Sir, but I just saw it as a sticker that was put on the wall.

MR STANDER: Could you have removed it yourself, had you so wished?

MR MMELESI: The problem was I did not know who was the person who put it there. And I did not take that into consideration.

MR STANDER: You also didn't go to any trouble to enquire about it?

MR MMELESI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: I would like to state it to you Sir, that that sticker had been placed on that wall because people were continuously assaulted and tortured in that passage and that is why it was known as Violent Street.  Could you reply to that?

MR MMELESI: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: Do you deny it or don't you?

MR MMELESI: I dispute that, I never seen anyone assaulted in that passage.

MR STANDER: No further questions to the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Mmelesi, as of 6th of April 1986, was your floor on the 5th floor or was it on the 4th floor?

MR MMELESI: We were on the 5th floor, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: I meant you office.

MR MMELESI: We were in the 5th floor.

ADV MEMANI: And on that day you worked with Terreblanche
and Du Plooy, didn't you?

MR MMELESI: When I arrived at the security branch I worked with those people you just mentioned.

ADV MEMANI: But on the 6th of April 1996 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you could tell him what the 6th of April was. I can't remember what the 6th of April 1986 was.

ADV MEMANI: This is the day when the 19 people were ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well tell him.

ADV MEMANI: I thought its common cause Mr Chair.
	 And this is the day on which the 19 people were detained. Do you remember that now?

MR MMELESI: Sir, I do not remember when it comes to dates but I remember that there were people brought to the offices.

ADV MEMANI: Now, on that day, when these people were detained, did you assist the officers on the 4th floor?

MR MMELESI: I helped in the investigation department to ask those people questions.

ADV MEMANI: Where did you help the investigation department?

MR MMESELI: On the 4th floor, that is where the investigation was done, we were in the 5th floor.

ADV MEMANI: And who - which white officer were you working with?

MR MMESELI: Its a long time Sir, I do not remember but the person I was working with very well was Sergeant Du Plessis but he was not involved in the interrogation section.

ADV MEMANI: Now, I'm talking about this particular day. Who did you work with on that particular day?

MR MMELESI: Sir, I said I do not remember well because this happened long time ago.

ADV MEMANI: How many people did you interrogate on that day?

MR MMELESI: On that day, i think two, if not four.

ADV MEMANI: And who were the persons?

MR MMELESI: I do not remember them, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Did you get any information from these people?

MR MMELESI: The way the interrogator proceeded he was satisfied with the answers.

ADV MEMANI: Was he satisfied with all of them as and when he started interrogating each of them?

MR MMELESI: On that day where I participated, he asked them questions and they explained to him well what  happened, why they decided to leave, he was satisfied. I was an interpreter.

ADV MEMANI: In short, all of them co-operated?  None of them at any stage did not co-operate?

MR MMELESI: Where I took part, I said they satisfied him.  No-one was stubborn, they all answered questions without being forced.

ADV MEMANI: And they co-operated from the onset is what I'm putting you, why can't you say yes or no?

MR MMELESI: I said yes I've explained that if a person did not want to co-operate then but I said the time when I was there nobody was not co-operating, they answered those questions well.

ADV MEMANI: You see, earlier on your evidence was that people were asked questions and those who did not co-operate was taken upstairs and then they would be called for the second time.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I have to object Mr Chairman, the questions which he answered, and I attempted to listen very carefully, were put to him on the hypothesis that if somebody refused to answer questions, what would you then do?   And he said the answer which my learned friend has now given, he has not been asked by anybody until right now, whether the people did in fact co-operate. There's a difference, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is he said he was asked what sort of [End of tape 1, side A - no follow on sound]  I aske him who their leaders and contacts were, some were prepared to co-operate, others were not, we would just leave them.  We would just leave them.
    Let me later go back to these people ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: That, with respect, is my note Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I do think it's fair to say though, that his answers were all speculative always if, if, if.  I don't think that he in that portion of evidence said that they did in fact do this, this is what they would have done.

ADV MEMANI: My...

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is I think, what I tried to convey.

ADV MEMANI: My understanding Mr Chair, was that the context in which the words if and would were used were not used in a speculative sense but they were used to explain what what would occur as what occurred in fact on that day.
    It was not only hypothesis. It was what did you do what would you do if people did not co-operate on that day?  They were specific to what would happen on that day.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, I don't want to waste time.  Let him put the question to the witness and let the witness field for himself.

ADV MEMANI: In any event it has emerged that you told us that some people did not co-operate on that day and that is contrary to what you just put that none of them did not co-operate.

MR MMELESI: I did not say they were not co-operating. You asked me, saying: "If people did not answer questions what did they do"?, I answered and said: "Those who did not want to ask questions would just leave them and ask others. And later would bring them back and interrogate them and they would answer those questions well".

ADV MEMANI: Now mister, - I'll leave the rest of the things for argument.  The next that I wanted to ask you is where - in which office where you on that day?

MR MMELESI: We were on the 4th floor the time when we were interrogating these people.  This thing happened a long time ago, I don't know whose office - I don't remember whose office was that.

ADV MEMANI: And who was present with you?  You say you don't recall that as well.