Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-17

UNKNOWN: No, no, no, let me get you correctly.  Are you saying Justice instructed you that on that day you must go and look for a policeman and kill him and disarm him?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He didn't say specifically in that day.

UNKNOWN: What actually did he say, what actually did he order you to do?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: His instruction was that we should go out and kill the policemen and take their weapons.

UNKNOWN: So do I understand you to mean that even if you managed to get that weapon from this policeman you would kill him anyway?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct, we would kill him.

UNKNOWN: Why do you say Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani knew about your operations?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Justice told us during our training that Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani knew about these operations, they were well aware of our operations.

UNKNOWN: Why did you not mention this Justice in your application?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I completed this form with my co-prisoner in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: But that doesn't answer the question.  If you
take a look at paragraph 11(b), which you've already been 
referred to, there's a specific question which says: 
"If so, state particulars of such order or approval and
the date thereof and it known, the name and address 
of the person who gave such order or approval."
Now you've quite clearly said to us that you got the approval for this killing from Justice, your commander.  Now the question asked by Mr Mapoma is, why didn't you mention Justice's name in response to that question?  It doesn't matter whether you were filling in the question together with co-prisoners or with whoever it was, you knew what happened, why didn't you mention Justice in response to that question?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Like I've already said that I was filling this form with my co-prisoner.  I was explaining to him what was happening during our training, how Justice used to explain instructions to us.  I was never given instructions by Peter Mokaba.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the question, that's exactly why Mr Mapoma asked you the question.  If you were never given instructions by Peter Mokaba, why do you put his name there and not Justice who you say gave you the instructions?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was explaining to him, I was talking about Justice, that is the person who was helping me to fill in these forms.  I told him about the training that we got from Justice.  He used to talk about Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani who were well aware of such instructions and operations.

UNKNOWN: Mr Motlokoa, who wrote down the answers?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: His name is Lengwabala.

UNKNOWN: Mr Motlokoa, I put it to you that the action of killing the deceased person, the policeman in May 1993, was not in line with the ANC policy.  What do you say to that?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: What I'm saying is that it was in line with the policy of the ANC.  We were told so by Justice.  He used to teach us about that, that the policeman is your enemy, you don't have to trust him.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the point is, even F W de Klerk, the State President of the then government was not trusted by the ANC because the apartheid government was the enemy of the people but the ANC did not have a policy to kill the leaders of that government, do you understand that?  That the police were the enemy of the people does not necessarily mean that the ANC had a policy that those people must be killed.  That's what I'm putting across to you, what do you say to that?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I do not disagree with you, not all the policeman were killing people, but how would you know that this one supports apartheid or he does not?

UNKNOWN: No further questions, thank Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?  Sorry, before I hand it over to you, do you have any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba, arising out of questions that have been put?

MR MHLABA: No, no re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Doctor Tsotsi?

DR TSOTSI: Do I understand you correctly to say that while you were struggling with the deceased for the possession of your gun, John Kubeka shot the deceased?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: So you yourself did not shoot the deceased at all?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I wanted to shoot the deceased ...(intervention)

DR TSOTSI: ...(indistinct) whether you actually shot him.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, Sir.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say that John Kubeka shot him when he discovered that the deceased was a policeman, is that right?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I don't understand the question correctly, Sir.

DR TSOTSI: You say that John Kubeka shot the deceased.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: When he discovered that the deceased was a policeman, is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, not when he discovered that he was a policeman.

DR TSOTSI: Okay, why did he shoot the deceased?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He shot him because he was a police officer and that we wanted to disarm him.

DR TSOTSI: But how did you know that?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We knew him because we were with him in the same area.

DR TSOTSI: And where is he now, John Kubeka?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He's there.

DR TSOTSI: And the lady who was with the deceased ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "He is there", where?  Just for record purposes.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He is inside this hall.

MR SIBANYONI: What is his other name?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is John.

MR SIBANYONI: Is he one of the applicants?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I don't know but I know that he was notified to be present.

DR TSOTSI: Was he charged for shooting the deceased?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, he was charged.

DR TSOTSI: And what was the outcome of the case?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He was sentenced for death and seven years in prison.

DR TSOTSI: Was he charged together with you?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, he was my co-accused.

DR TSOTSI: Was there anybody else who was your co-accused apart from him?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Phillip Mosela was not found guilty.

DR TSOTSI: Now you've also told us that the police, you didn't like the police because they had dispersed a meeting of the students and that on the day that they did so you made a decision, you decided that you were going to go for the police.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, that is correct.

DR TSOTSI: So you were actually motivated by personal hatred or spite against the police?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: The way they were harassing the people and torturing the people, those who were fighting for their human rights.

DR TSOTSI: You also told us that they beat up your uncle's son.  They took your uncle's child to Welkom here and beat ...(indistinct)

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, that happened in the previous years before this incident.

DR TSOTSI: It was one of the reasons why you didn't like the police?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: One of the reasons was that they were torturing the people who were fighting for human rights and for freedom.

DR TSOTSI: I'm talking now about your uncle's son.  You decided that because the police had mistreated your uncle's son you were going to go for them?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, Sir.  When we reported this case, when we started to report this case, ...(end of tape)

DR TSOTSI: You say they didn't pay attention to the case, and then what did you decide about it?  What did you decide to do as a result of the failure of the police to take up the case?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We went to the lawyer to complain and because of lack of funds we did not continue.