Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know the area.  As far as I know,  there was one entrance into that building.  We did drive around that evening, but where exactly we drove, I cannot tell you.  I do not know the area at all.  That evening I got there for the first time and I went back there yesterday for the second time in my life.

MR WILLIAMS: But your earlier testimony is that you never drove, you never passed the front area or the front entrance of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We drove around.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that still your evidence?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I am telling you that I did not even know that there was another entrance.  We drove around, where we drove around, I cannot tell you.  I do not know the area.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you drove passed the front entrance, you were unaware that it was the front entrance of that very same place?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Definitely.

MR LAX: Just to recap, when you - you made reference to driving around the block, the block you pointed out was the block at the back of the premises, it's got nothing to do with the building itself?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think the block that I am referring to, that I pointed out, was when I told Gakkie to drive around the block so that the bomb could be activated, that would be the block, because we drove into that block and passed the front of the premises, where we had stopped, so that it could be identified, it is in those terms that I am referring to that specific block.

MR LAX: Just to clarify this, what you refer to as the front of the premises, is in fact the back of the premises?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: Sorry Chair, I am just a little bit puzzled now, because you said you were at some point 400 metres away from the building and then you drove closer to the building, and I understood from your testimony this morning, that that place is the same place that you were in that was demonstrated to us, 30 metres, 42 paces, where the white car was yesterday and that is where you stopped with your back to the premises, and from there you observed who came out.  You said it was the same place, more or less the same place?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The same vicinity in the block.  But what I can tell you is that you have to accept that we did drive around that evening, specifically where we stopped, etc, I cannot tell you, it is too long ago.  I do not know the area.
	What I can specifically remember and what I gave evidence to specifically is that we drove down and that we took a left turn in front of the building and that we stopped and the parking area was behind me, to my right, and the building behind me, to my right.  That is what I can remember.
	I cannot in detail tell you exactly where we stopped that evening.  I would like to, but I cannot do it.

MR LAX: My point is simply this, it was approximately the same position that you would have been in when you then tried to detonate the bomb, because there is absolutely no other place there where you could be with the vehicle pointing in the way you described, with the building behind you, slightly to your right, pointing in that way.  You saw the place yesterday, in terms of how those roads are situated and so on?

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Commissioner, I think you are putting it incorrectly to the witness, yesterday, the way I understood the witness, he pointed out to the Chairperson two points, correct me if I am wrong Chairperson, the point which we measured out, which was the point which we heard put on record today, when the bomb was detonated.  Then there was a point which my client pointed out to the Chairperson, where - I think on a question from the Chairperson, where he was before that.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately 400 metres away, but he wasn't sure whether it was to the right or to the left.

MR MARTINI: Correct.  So are you talking about that point, the 400 meter point?

MR LAX: No, I am not.  You are getting all confused here.  I am going on the point that was pointed out yesterday from which he then reversed one car width, right, one car length, where the bomb actually did go off.
	I understood from your testimony this morning that the place where you observed people coming out of the building was about 30 metres away, which is roughly 42 paces again, it is roughly the same distance, and from the way you described it, you said it is almost the same as the place, because you were pointing in this direction and the building was behind you to the right, etc, etc, do you remember that testimony this morning?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.  Yesterday?

MR LAX: No, this morning?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Very well.

MR LAX: Because yesterday we did not know where these places were in relation to, we hadn't seen them yet?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: The impression I got, and that is what I am trying to clarify is that from the way you described it, I got the very clear impression that it was pretty much in the vicinity of where you were when you tried to get the bomb to go off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I admit that.

MR LAX: Give or take ten metres, maybe.

MR MARTINI: No, no, that was not his evidence, give or take 20 metres?

MR LAX: I am being generous.  My impression was that it was exactly the same place, because ...

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, that is not my recollection of the evidence.

MR LAX: Let the witness speak for himself.

MR MARTINI: No, but Mr Commissioner, it is confusing for the witness, because it is not my recollection.

MR LAX: Well, he can say I've got it wrong, or he can say I've got it right, or he can describe that it is different.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We were in that vicinity.  What I can remember, we were in the area, we parked far away initially when Gakkie visited the premises, after which we drove closer so that we could observe the place.
	Then some of the people came out of the premises, we drove even closer and then we drove to the point where the bomb eventually, when we reached the stage when the bomb was eventually detonated, but I cannot tell you exactly where I was at that stage.  Yesterday it took me ten minutes to reconstruct the scene, so that I could say "we were standing exactly at that point", and the reason why I can say that we were standing at that point when the bomb was detonated is only because I can clearly remember that the parking area at that stage, had been to the right behind me, and the building was there.
	And I can also remember that shortly after the bomb was detonated, we turned left.  That is why I can explain that specific point and that area to you in this way.  The rest unfortunately, I cannot help you with.

MR LAX: Okay.  You have certainly clarified something for me, and that is that you drove closer in stages.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: It wasn't apparent to me before, at all.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, that is so.

MR LAX: Okay.   When you say you drove closer, how much closer did you drive, because at one point you are 400 metres away from the building, at ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is difficult to say, I think we drove around and I would say that one could accept that there had been 400 metres, then we were closer, approximately I would say more than 100 metres approximately, and then we were even closer to the building.  The last observation that we made, when the people left the parking area and drove off, we were very close to them, I would say about 40 to 50 metres.
	And during the detonation of the bomb, we were a bit closer than that.

MR LAX: And at all these stages, you were at the back of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.  And the reason why I can say this, is that I know that we were at the parking area all the time.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, the diagram that we were going to get, is it the diagram possibly of the inspection that we had, with the roads in front, or is it just of the - that might help things.