Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, are you appearing for the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  The next applicant is Mr Patrick Radebe.  It's on page 128.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can you hear?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names, Patrick Radebe?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: (sworn states)

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter and applying for amnesty, is that correct?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander at the time?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It was Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: When was that when you joined the Self Defence Unit?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents where shots were fired towards anybody during the time of your membership of the Self Defence Unit?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: During the time when you were a Self Defence Unit member, were you at any stage in possession of an AK47 or any form of firearm which you used towards or against anybody?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, it was an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Radebe, if you don't understand a question, please say so, so that we can correctly follow the procedure here.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, I used to carry an AK47 around.

MR SIBEKO: Now name, or tell us about all the incidents in which you were involved whilst you were a member of the Self Defence Unit.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Mbuso Kambule killed Gregory Mkwanazi and it so happened that when I woke up in the morning, I learnt that Mbuso has killed Gregory Mkwanazi.  In that very same morning Mbuso came to ask for forgiveness.  At the same time we left with him and we were taking him to the office at Mkwaie.
	We picked him up at 10 o'clock.  We arrived at 10, driving in a kombi.  We took him and we went to the circle with him.  When we arrived there we put him at the circle and then started beating him up.  Dan is the person who was in my company.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, before you proceed, Mr Radebe, who is Gregory Mkwanazi and how was he related to you or to any of the Self Defence Unit members, or was he a member of the Self Defence Unit?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He was a member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: And then who is Mbuso, was he also a member of the Self Defence Unit or was he a member of the community, or was a member of the IFP?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He was a member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: Right.  Your evidence is to the effect that Mbuso killed Gregory, how do you know that Sir?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I came to know this about this information because Dan was present when he was being beaten up the previous evening.

MR SIBEKO: Now it's for the second time in your testimony that you so and so hit so and so, can you specify exactly what you mean by that term "hit"?  If you say he was shot, please say so straight or if you say he was assaulted, please say so straight.  We've got to clarify that term "hit".

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He was shot at his parents' home in the house.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, who is "he"?  I'm lost.  Who was shot?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It was Gregory Mkwanazi.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that Gregory Mkwanazi was shot at by Mbuso?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: That was in the evening, and the following morning when you went to Gregory Mkwanazi's place, you say Mbuso came in to ask for apologies, is that what you say?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then you took Mbuso to your offices at Mkwaie, where you were to fetch him at about 10 o'clock the same morning, is that correct?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then you went there at 10 o'clock, that is you went to Mkwaie at your offices to fetch him at 10 o'clock and you took him to a circle, is that what you said?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now which circle are you referring to here, because if I'm not mistaken there are many circles at Thokoza.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It is Xhaba Street.

MR SIBEKO: What was the purpose of you taking Mbuso to that circle at Xhaba Street?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: We had this policy that when a person has killed another one, he too should be killed.

MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group that went to fetch Mbuso at Mkwaie to Xhaba Street, to that circle at Xhaba Street?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who else was there, do you remember?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It was Langa, Langa Nxumalo, Bobby Tshabalala as well, Dan Radebe was also present.

ADV SANDI: So if I understand you correctly, Mr Radebe, are you saying this gentleman, Mbuso, was taken to the circle so that he could be killed?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Did he give an explanation as to how the killing of Mkwanazi had happened?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, he did.  They explained to me that when he opened the door he was shot with an AK47 and his brains split all over the place.

ADV SANDI: Was that the explanation from Mbuso?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No.  I received this information from Gregory's mother.

ADV SANDI: Okay, carry on, maybe I'll understand it better as you go on.
	Carry on, Mr Sibeko.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you.
	Now you mentioned a few names, in other words there were only four of you who took Mbuso from the offices to the circle at Xhaba Street, is that what you are saying or you might have forgotten the names of other people who were also there?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.  There was also this kombi person or the driver of the kombi.

MR SIBEKO: Do you by any chance remember the name of the person who was driving this kombi?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Sticks is the name.

MR SIBEKO: Right, what happened at that circle at Xhaba Street?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: As we got off with him we pushed him onto the circle and Dan came and shot him with an AK47.  We left him there.

MR SIBEKO: Before Dan used his AK47 to shoot at Mbuso, what did you personally do other than dragging Mbuso out of the kombi?  What did you do as an act of assault or anything that had to do with inflicting injuries to Mbuso?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: After having dragged him out of the kombi I manhandled him actually.

MR SIBEKO: Would you mind explaining?  We were not there and we would like to know as much as you can tell us as to what actually took place.  What did you do?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Before Dan shot him, I assaulted him, I manhandled him, I also kicked him.  That is all that I did.

MR SIBEKO: You said you were informed or you were told by the deceased's mother, that is the mother of Gregory Mkwanazi, that Gregory opened the door and he was shot at by Mbuso.  What exactly did you get from Mbuso himself, did you asking him as to what exactly happened, whether it was accidental when he shot at him or was it something that he intended?  Did you try to find anything to that effect from Mbuso?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I was feeling very downhearted and I didn't want to talk or discuss the incident.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that you never asked anything from Mbuso to try to find out as to exactly what happened that led to the shooting?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No, I did not.

MR SIBEKO: Right.  When you started you said Mbuso arrived at Gregory's place in the morning to apologise, did he get an opportunity of apologising or you just took him as you saw him when he came in, he never got that chance?  What happened?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, he did get an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and apologise.