Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I believe so Sir, and considering that nobody actually prevented me or did the same, because with the amount of persons arrested, I could do the interrogation or initial interrogation without any other member of the then Security Police having to do this.
	And the reason why I say used is, I would like the Commission to know at this stage if they don't already know it, the Security Branch per se of the South African Police was a very, very powerful organisation.
	Few people even for the four years that I worked for the Security Branch, was never really taken into the confidence of the day-to-day running of the Security Branch.

MR YENGENI: Do you believe that what you did was right, of torturing myself and other members of MK?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said he did.  He has answered that.  He was convinced that he was doing the right thing.

MR YENGENI: Is that correct, Mr Benzien?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At the time, given those circumstances, how heinous it may sound, I was convinced I was right.

MR YENGENI: And now?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: With hindsight Sir, I realise that it was wrong and for that I apologise.  I must also admit at this stage with a new dispensation and the new constitution and the now way the country is being run by a new set of Ministers and especially the Honourable State President, from a position that I was in, I can only say I am extremely amazed and very happy to still be in South Africa today and I am still a patriot of the country.
	To serve the public at large as well as the government of the day.

MR YENGENI: Now, so if now with the benefit of hindsight, you believe that you were wrong, so in other words you are then saying that not only were you wrong, but that everything that you stood for, was wrong?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Yengeni, yes.

MR YENGENI: Can you, Mr Benzien, look me straight in the eye and say to me that you now as you are sitting there, believe that the Apartheid system was evil and was wrong?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

MR YENGENI: Now, I want to ask you the second last question.  The first is you have indicated that you have tortured me and others, you have accepted having assaulted me and others, you have accepted having lied to courts of law, you have accepted having even killed Ashley Kriel.  Now if you have done all these things, tortured, assaulted, lied, killed, how are we sure that we should trust what you are saying and how can we believe what you are saying to us no, if you have done all these things throughout your life?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Yengeni, Mr Chairman, at the very beginning of my testimony I requested the Honourable Commission to listen to a submission that I made.
	I realise the predicament or the dilemma that this court has now.  All I can say is and that is on trust, that yes, I did commit perjury, I did lie to the courts as far as assaults and things like that went.  The rest of my evidence in the courts of law as to the recovery of weaponry were fact and I think even Mr Yengeni can admit that, that it was for the recovery of certain materials of war.
	I have asked this Commission to believe me.  I have tried to be sincere.  I was never subpoenaed to speak to the Investigation Unit of the TRC, I voluntarily went there and I voluntarily helped them as far as I could with questions put to me.
	I am hoping that the Commission and with respect to the Commission, even more so the persons who I have done this injustice to, that they should believe in what I have to say here today.
	Because without trust it is going to be very difficult for truth and reconciliation to take place.  Therefore I beseige anybody and everybody who I have done an injustice to, to let's go forward and let history then determine if I had been truthful or not to the Commission or to you gentlemen.

MR YENGENI: The last question I want to ask you Mr Benzien is, I am seeing you for the first time since the days of my torture.  And I am still trying to recover after seeing you this morning. But what, why do you think I should support your application for amnesty?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Yengeni, that is a very difficult decision, considering what I have done to you.  I presume it is a difficult decision for you to come to.  I can only implore you, without wanting to influence your personal position, I felt very humble, exceptionally humble and there was almost as if there was a spark inside me again, because if I can point to the people sitting mostly in the front row, when I came into this Commission this morning, Mr Forbes, his wife, Peter Jacobs and numerous, I think all of these gentlemen and lady, who I had belittled and hurt, put their hand out and shook my hand.
	And if I may say it, not without singling out anybody, especially Mrs Pandy.  I think if that is what the majority feels, and wished me luck and hope to God that we can make this country work, then so be it Mr Yengeni.

MR YENGENI: Now, just as a last if you may allow me Mr Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Last after the last question?

MR YENGENI: No, this is the last.  I think that when you spoke this morning, you indicated that you have reconciled with us and we have reconciled with you.
	I wish to indicate that it is very proper for me to follow this thing correctly.  But before I and my colleagues can express ourselves on supporting or not supporting your application for amnesty, we should be and must be convinced that you are speaking the truth, not only speaking the truth and by that you want the country to know what exactly happened.	And until then, it is going to be very difficult for me and my colleagues to express ourselves on whether we support the application or not.  We are prepared to support the amnesty application only on the basis of full disclosure and I am not sure that at this stage, we are ready, or I am ready to say that you have made a full disclosure.
	I am aware that my colleagues would also want to ask some questions from you and at this stage, I must thank the Commission, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR YENGENI: .

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

MR FORBES: Ashley Forbes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Forbes.

MR FORBES: Captain Benzien, can I maybe put it to you that the statement that you handed to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that particular statement comes nowhere near to a full disclosure of the truth.
	And I think even from the previous, the person that - Tony Yengeni that has addressed the Commission that there are a number of aspects that fall short in terms of the statement which you have made and details which we seem to have to struggle about to reveal.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Forbes, as I told the Commission earlier today, that I have to the best of my knowledge tried to convey to the Commission what I know.  In the light of us not getting more detail, I am willing now to answer any aspect to which I have not referred in the application to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee.

MR FORBES: In terms of the torture and the process of interrogation that people may have been put under, would you say that in your statement you refer to the wet bag method and that you have used an open hand on people, so would you then say that there are other methods and things that you may have done to people, but that in your statement you only referred to two, but that if we were to address you on certain other aspects, that you would be able to reveal other aspects that you may have done to people?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR FORBES: Will you agree that Section 29 was an institution then that was designed to extract information and to ensure that people could be tortured and abused?