Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, I just want to indicate that at some stage I need to get an indication from the Investigative Team through you, former Minister Roelf Meyer was mentioned here on two occasions at least in a manner that might lead to a finding to his detriment, and I just want to know from the Investigators if this is information that came to their attention only now or it had come to their attention earlier and if it had whether steps were taken to consult.  You don't need to do it now.  I just want to remember that by the end of the day you must clear the record as far as that is concerned, given all the legal requirements of notice and opportunity to be heard.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair, we will look into that.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can then proceed Mr Vally.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: (s.u.o.)

MR VALLY: General Knobel I just want to ask you one question before I go on with the document I was referring to.  When you talk about enemies, and remember we are talking about the time when you were Surgeon-General and especially the early part of your tenure when you got involved in the Chemical Biological Warfare programme, you mention in referring to enemies Russia, you mentioned - I think you used the words, the Cuban surrogates in Angola, would you have included the ANC as enemies?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Well Mr Vally I certainly wasn't responsible for determining who the enemy is.

MR VALLY: No I understand, but your understanding of what enemies meant at the time.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Understanding we - we understood under that heading that the potential threat would be coming with engagements between South African forces and Cuban forces and Apla forces - no I beg your pardon, MPLA forces in Angola ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: FAPLA, yes.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: FAPLA, yes, thank you, as well as what was, at that time, considered to be terrorist organisations.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Now a lot of the unrest, a lot of the resistance was by internal political groupings, especially the youth, in terms of the category enemy, would they be included as enemy?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No certainly not.

MR VALLY: Let's look at TRC52, you have it before you.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now I am just wanting to determine which of these items would be within, I am talking about the production of the chemical or the toxin, would be within the parameters of the programme ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Can I, Mr Vally ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Sure.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: ...with your permission.

MR VALLY: Certainly.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I took the liberty at lunch to ask Chandre Gould to copy some pages out of a book called "The Chemical and Biological Warfare Threat".  Mr Chairman if you will allow me I will ask Chandre to give each member of the Commission a copy of those pages which lists the classical chemical warfare agents and the classical biological warfare agents, and that would certainly help me to explain to you what I was trying to say before lunch, that any agent that falls within those categories that are on those lists would be recognised or internationally accepted warfare agents or potential chemical warfare agents.  It would be against those sort of lists that the substances on TRC52 would have to be tested.  If those substances on TRC52 falls within the categories of those lists I would say it would be justifiable to examine them or to research them.
 But I am also saying, taken the face value of this document and what is written on this document and indicating for example whisky along with it, and indicating what volume and a price and so on, that is highly suggestive of either abuse or planning to abuse.  That's what I am saying.
 Now you will find if you look at those pages that I asked them to copy for us, that we will undoubtedly find things that would fall under the incapacitating agent group or under the irritating agent group or under the lethal group of chemical weapons, and you will undoubtedly find organisms that are within the list of the classical biological weapon group.
Maybe that will save time Mr Vally, I don't know.

MR VALLY: It certainly will and yes, you can very briefly say it's referred to on the list that hopefully we will receive.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Then I just want to repeat what I said earlier on, I am not - I don't have a sufficient chemistry background to make the fine distinction, but it wasn't necessary to do so because this sort of thing was never at the level of the Coordinating Management Committee.

MR VALLY: Well we will come back to that in a short while.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Right.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But let's just start with the list.  Now the first item on the list; phencyclidine, and as I understand it this is a major of street drug preparations.  It can cause a psychosis indistinguishable from schizophrenia and deaths have been reported from its illegal use. It can also produce an amnesic trans-like state.  Was this on your list of allowable toxins?   I am going to ask you about all of the items so if you want to come back to any item we can come back to it at some stage.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally you asked me whether that was on the list of our toxins.

MR VALLY: Right.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Phencyclidine is not a toxin.

MR VALLY: Well let me ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: It is a psychotropic agent.

MR VALLY: Yes, fair enough.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: It could be used as an incapacitating agent.  It could be ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: That's all I need to know.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That's what I am trying to say.

MR VALLY: Is it part of the mandate of RRL to produce or Delta-G for that matter.  Alright. ...(intervention)

WENDY ORR: Sorry may I interrupt, I don't see phencyclidine on Table 1 of Chemical Warfare agents unless it's called by a different name.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But that's exactly the point I am trying to make Dr Orr.  It would take a person with chemical background to look at the list of the accepted incapacitating agents that have been used or are potentially being used as chemical weapons.

WENDY ORR: Well could we perhaps ask Professor Folb to do that check for us.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is what I am trying to say, that is what you would need.

WENDY ORR: Peter could you look at Table 1 and see if phencyclidine is on that list.

MR VALLY: Professor Folb is not a witness, are you asking him just to do background checking for you and tell you and you can raise it and he'll advise you off the record.  Thank you Dr Orr.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: May I just say Mr Vally, we listened yesterday to the testimony of General Neethling, and General Neethling indicated to you that any substance that is a psychotropic substance could be considered as a incapacitating agent and he thought, I think he expressed the opinion that phencyclidine in his opinion would be an excellent incapacitating agent.

MR VALLY: So your views echo his?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes per se, but we are not looking at the face value of this particular document that you are ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Well I will come back to the face value as well.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Okay.

MR VALLY: So I need to go through that.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Thallium, potent poison symptoms appear within 12 to 24 hours of a single dose; vomiting, diarrhoea, bleeding from the bowel, severe cases - delirium, convulsions, paralysis, coma leading to death in one or two days.  Was this ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am not aware of whether it is on the list, whether it could be fitted into any of the chemicals on the list, personally my opinion would be that it would not be covered by the mandate.

MR VALLY: You are aware that Simpiwe Mthimkulu was poisoned with this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I am not aware of that.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the case of Simpiwe Mthimkulu?