Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LANDMAN: If I understand you correctly, there was this much greater plan where the army might even become involved on the side of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You see Mr le Roux, I want to put it to you that the reason why none of these things happened, the army didn't come onto your side, the elections continued, is simply because these bombings were not designed, were not part of a plan to stop the elections.

MR LE ROUX: These bombs were part of the plan, it was part of a right-wing plan.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that these bombings were part of a plan by a very small group of people who didn't care about human life, being yourself, Mr Barnard, Mr Myburgh and possibly Mr Prinsloo.

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, how would you then explain the Church Street bombing, it's a means and for it was the same thing.

MR LANDMAN: Did you believe Mr le Roux, that you would win this revolution?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage yes, we thought so.

MR LANDMAN: Did you believe that you would be safe in your Volkstaat in the Western Transvaal?

MR LE ROUX: I did not think that we would be safe but I thought that it would be a beginning, a start.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that at that stage you believed that you would win the struggle, must I read in that, that that is not what you are thinking now?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, things did change.  I mean it's not the option at this stage.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, when you drove to Johannesburg in the pilot car in order to plant the bomb, did you take steps so that you wouldn't be recognised?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MR LANDMAN: Did you not take steps afterwards to ensure that the car in which the bomb was placed was to be reported as stolen?

MR LE ROUX: We thought about it but we saw it as a military action, a struggle from which we would come out and we did not pay any attention to that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, is it not correct that the owner of the vehicle, a Mr Breytenbach was told after the bombing that he must report the car as having been stolen from him?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, Mr Barnard organised that with him.

MR LANDMAN: Why was that?  Or maybe I can suggest to you ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: I did not take that decision Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: I want to suggest to you that the answer is simply because you didn't want, you and Barnard and the others didn't want to be connected to the bombing.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it could have been that way.

MR LANDMAN: Because you knew that you were going to be caught and that you were going to be tried for it.

MR LE ROUX: You try to get away with it for as long as possible, yes.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that you knew that these were criminal acts and these were not political acts and you knew that one day you would be caught for it.

MR LE ROUX: At that I did not think so at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But when this action was committed or the plan was executed, were you under the impression that the AWB will take responsibility for it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So how would it have helped you?

MR LE ROUX: I thought that we would get a Volkstaat and that the leaders on the right-wing side would enforce that and there'd be more actions and that would then result in a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about hiding.

MR LE ROUX: We didn't have much to hide, we didn't cover up or anything.  Barnard did say after the time say: "Listen, the car must be reported stolen", but I never gave that order, I just know about it.  It is just, for as long as possible you try to get away with it because the struggle would continue for a while longer.

MR LANDMAN: Is it correct that in connection with the Germiston bombing, that one of you removed the chassis plate number from the trailer in which the bomb was assembled?

MR LE ROUX: I took it off Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Why did you do that?

MR LE ROUX: So it's not easily identified.

MR LANDMAN: You didn't want it to be traced back to the AWB, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Yet you were doing this in the honourable cause of the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: I just want to add that the number plates of the trailer was still on it, we left it there.  We did however place more explosives behind the number plate in order to destroy it more, but our ultimate plan was not to hide everything.  Barnard said: "Let's take it off in order not to bring the AWB into trouble".

MR LANDMAN: Well Mr le Roux, that's exactly what this is all about.  You didn't want to get the AWB into trouble because you and the others were acting on your own?

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You wanted that number plate to be blown to smithereens so that it could not be connected to the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, it was the AWB's trailer.  I do not know if any of the guys who bought the trailer would have been angry that we used that.

MR LANDMAN: You see actions it seems were designed to hide any connection between the bombing and the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, when you are in a war situation and you go into a town and you want to shoot people then surely you hide behind buildings and you do try to hide things, and that is what it is about.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr le Roux tell me, during that period you did what did and you thought that after the explosion the AWB would take responsibility for what occurred.

MR LE ROUX: I thought so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the name of this state and that the international community must find out about it.  I think the advocate's point is, why do you remove all the signs that the AWB members were involved?  Why did you take these signs away if it was planned that the AWB would come out in public and say: "It was us"?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage as winning time, gaining time, that's why the number plate did not bother me much.  They could have found a number plate.  I was under the impression that the plate, afterwards I folded it up and threw it into the trailer because all the rest of the stuff that we used in planting the bomb, all of that we three into the trailer.

ADV BOSMAN: If you now say: "To win time" or "To gain time", do you mean for you personally, for you and your group or are you talking about gaining time for the whole AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I would say it was about gaining time for oneself, because at that stage you think of surviving, it's one of the points and of course you would like to leave a door open for what you belong to.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I want to also suggest to you that if you put the chassis number in the trailer, you knew that trailer and everything that was in it was going to be blown up to smithereens, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: You knew it wouldn't be found?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You knew that the number plate wouldn't be found, that's why you put additional explosives behind the number plates, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: I would just like to say one thing, the vehicles did not have any false number plates, we just had our original number plates on.  This red car which had the trailer or which pulled the trailer in could easily have been identified.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you could have made your point about the Volkstaat and about the undesirability of the elections going ahead by planting a bomb at the SABC, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: That is possible, yes.

MR LANDMAN: You didn't have to kill people did you Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I accept that it is a general thing that is done throughout the world by a resistance movement.  The IRA does it, the ANC did it.  They all did it to draw attention to their cause.

MR LANDMAN: What you wanted to do was to create an explosion in a place where people will take notice, that this the power behind your organisation, that: "This is what we can do".