Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

MR BERGER: Perhaps you are misunderstanding me Mr Khanyile.
	At a time when you were leaving Boipatong, did you gather in the veld just outside of Boipatong, before crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, yesterday you testified did you not, that at some point after you had left the hostel, you stopped under a tree.

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how far this tree is from the Trek garage?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, sorry to interrupt.  I have found an aerial photograph in the record, which may be of some assistance to everybody to point out certain places.  If I can hand this up and the tree is also for instance indicated on this photograph, that can show the whole scene, it depicts the whole area, the hostel kwaMadala, the factories, the streets, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a key to this map?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, I am sure everything is in this Volume, I will just get it.

CHAIRPERSON: You just look up for the key so that we can make copies of these documents at an appropriate time, perhaps during the tea adjournment.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There are in fact keys available for the photographs, we will make copies during the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  To the extent that this aerial photograph may be useful in this particular line of cross-examination that you are pursuing, do you want to defer that aspect until these copies have been made?

MR BERGER: I can do that and I can go onto something else.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment at eleven o'clock.

MR BERGER: I do have stuff to proceed, yes.   I do have stuff to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore would you just defer that line of questioning then so that we can have these photocopies of this map made?

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, you testified yesterday - Chairperson, your desk is about to fall off the stage - Mr Khanyile, you testified yesterday that you entered Boipatong along Msheshwe Street.
	Mr Victor Mthembu testified that you entered Boipatong along Umzimvubu Street.  Which one of you are correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: The street  which we used to enter Boipatong, is the one which I mentioned, Msheshwe.

MR BERGER: From Msheshwe, you say you went all along Msheshwe in an easterly direction, until you got to Leqwa Street.  You went north along Leqwa towards the shops and you continued north along Leqwa, passed the shops, is that correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That happened after we divided into two.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am sorry.  The entire group according to you, all 300, 400, 500 attackers entered Boipatong along Msheshwe at the southern end of Boipatong.
	All of you moved along Msheshwe, until you got to Leqwa, is that correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: If that street which crosses Msheshwe is Leqwa, that is correct.

MR BERGER: But the point is that when you got to Leqwa, you were still one group of 400 people, correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: There was no agreement or arrangement to split into two groups, according to you that happened spontaneously when the first shots were fired in Leqwa Street, correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is my evidence.

MR BERGER: And the group that you were in, was also the group that Damara Qonqo was in, correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And that group continued to move in a northerly direction towards the shops, which are situated on the corner of Leqwa and Bapedi Streets?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That group also continued to move north, passed the shops along Leqwa Street, correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: What I can say is that when they reached the shop, they also dispersed.  Some get into houses, some broke the windows, some followed those who were running away.

MR BERGER: In which direction did these people go?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I said they scattered.  When I say they scattered, it means they went to different directions.

MR BERGER: I see you are indicating with your arms that they went in all directions, to the left to the right, to the north, to the south, am I right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: They scattered as I indicate.

MR BERGER: You indicate that they went to the left and to the right, is that right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In the vicinity of the shops, no houses were touched to the left.  Can you explain that?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Sir I won't be able to know that.  I don't believe I ever gave evidence relating to that point.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel is putting to you is that if the attackers ran in the direction that you indicate, one would expect that there would be damaged houses in the direction in which the attackers ran into.
	What he is putting to you is that in the direction in which you say some of the attackers ran into, no houses were damaged.  How do you explain that?  Do you have an explanation for that?
	Is that what you are putting to this witness?

MR BERGER: Indeed, that is precisely what I am putting.

VINCENT KHANYILE: Presently I will say the question that was asked by Mr Berger and the question asked by the Judge, are two different questions.
	The first question was referring, said to my left, the side to which I proceeded ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger has just confirmed that what I have just put to you, is what he wanted to ask you.  Is that right Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: That is my question, yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, can I just also add something here.  I have indicated on the map I have in front of me, all damaged houses and three houses on the left hand side, was in fact damaged.  So the statement is not correct.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I will compare maps with my learned friend and see which three houses he is referring to.
	Mr Khanyile, I see that some of your co-applicants have a map.  You can see that one of the applicants is looking at the map at the moment, which is now being put away.
	You have had a chance to look at that map, have you not and you have had a chance to see where houses were damaged and where they weren't damaged as indicated on the map that your colleague has, am I right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I can see the map sir.  But as to how it works, and how it is explained, I can only point on the map.   I don't know how it works.

MR BERGER: And I put it to you, you have had an opportunity to discuss the map, where houses were damaged, where they weren't damaged with your applicants in preparation for your evidence yesterday and today, am I right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: My lawyers, I have explained to my lawyers that I don't know how the map works therefore I never agreed or stated that I will be able to use the map.

MR BERGER: And you had not discussed that map with your co-applicants at any stage?

VINCENT KHANYILE: No.  We didn't and I don't know whether they have a map.

MR BERGER: As far as you are concerned, did you - when the group dispersed and went to the left and went to the right, where did you go?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I will say at that time it wasn't easy for me to remember, it is not easy now for me to remember everything that happened.
	At the time of the attack, whether I proceeded forward or I turned to the left or the right, I am not sure now.

MR BERGER: All you can remember from an hour and a half in Boipatong, is stabbing one person and throwing stones at houses, is that right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is what I did.

MR BERGER: In all the time you were in Boipatong, you only saw two people who could have been killed?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, there were two whom I saw.  But I heard on the news that another lot of people were injured.

MR BERGER: How many injured people did you see in Boipatong that night?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I wouldn't have explained if I did see them, which means I didn't see them.

MR BERGER: You left Boipatong along the street where the firms are, that is Nobel Boulevard, correct?