Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR ZILWA: I see.  Now, I will just go to those places where Maxhayi could not come out clearly.
	According to him, when you arrived in Port St Johns and at the time of the operation, you yourself, you are not one of those who went to take ambush positions, you rather remained with the others at the back of the van, or let's rather say next to the van?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: That mean that even though you had this pistol in your position, you never got to use it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I did not use the pistol there.

MR ZILWA: Any particular reason for that, you went down to Port St Johns, but you never used it.  Is there any particular reason why you ended up not using it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I do have a reason.  I do have a reason not to use the pistol.

MR ZILWA: Could you tell this Committee what that reason is?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I can.

MR ZILWA: Please do so.

LUNGILE MAZWI: The other people who were left with me in the car, did not have arms.  I was sure that this pistol was going to help if we happened to be defeated by the enemies.

MR ZILWA: I see.  In other words you didn't deem it correct that all the weapons in your possession should be with those who had taken up ambush positions, you decided to retain this one as a defensive weapon in case you were defeated or attacked by the enemy as you put it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I kept it for protecting the people who were with me in the van  or perhaps if the enemy happened to overpower us and disturb the whole process, so we had to protect ourselves with this pistol and the other grenades.

MR ZILWA: I see.  Maxhayi has also told us that you had intended to carry on with incidents of this nature, but the only thing that stopped you was the fact that you later learnt that President Nelson Mandela had called for calm and for restraint and not to commit retaliatory acts.  Do you also confirm that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: If you had heard the call for calm even before committing this deed, this operation, would you have committed the, would you have carried on with the operation, if you had heard that call before the operation?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR ZILWA: Yes, if you had heard about President Mandela's call for peace and calm before the operation, would you have carried on with the operation?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We would not continue with the operation, we would put down the weapons, we would stop attacking.

MR ZILWA: I see.  Is that what persuaded you in fact to cancel the operations you had planned for later on?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Yes.  Now, to the families and friends of the deceased, the Weakley's and those who narrowly escaped your operation, what would you like to say to them?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The message for them to the families of the deceased and those who escaped, it is so unfortunate.  I ask for forgiveness, it was not our intention to target the Weakley family or whatever family, but that was all the effort, that was all about the effort to show the government, the cruel government, that we were not satisfied by the killings and the disturbances, killings of our leaders and we wanted negotiations so that the country can be ruled in the right manner.
	Therefore I ask for forgiveness to all those who escaped and the next of kin of the deceased.  That was not our intention to hurt them, but it was to send a message to the government that we were totally against the regime.
	That is the message that I would like to pass to the next of kin of the deceased.

MR ZILWA: Is it also correct that during our consultation, you asked me to convey to the legal representatives for the other side, that you would love an opportunity to personally apologise to those family members or victims?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.  I would like to have that opportunity to talk to them and ask for forgiveness.

MR ZILWA: Is there anything that you can think of pertaining to you operation or your deed, which you have not disclosed before this Commission?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The only thing I can say to the Committee is that I would, I would ask the Committee to sympathise with us and I would like the Committee to believe that we were not being criminal, it was liberation.  We were involved in the liberation and we had to use all the power we had at the time and we were forced by the situation prevailing at that time, to act in that manner.
	Therefore I would like the Committee to sympathise with us on those basis.

MR ZILWA: And you say your actions were actuated purely by your political objectives, achieving the objectives which you have referred to?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: And having adopted the evidence of Nyalukana and your affidavit, is it your submission that you have told this Committee everything that you can think of, relevant to the event?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR ZILWA: Yes, I say adopting the evidence of Nyalukana and that coupled with your affidavit, is it your submission that you have told this Committee everything that you can think of pertaining to the incident in respect of which you seek amnesty?
	Sorry, I made a mistake about Nyalukana, sorry, Maxhayi.

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct and I hope that he has explained everything the way I was going to explain it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not hear what he said?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Will you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not hear what he had said?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say you hope that he said everything the way you would have said it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was not sure that if I use the word hope, I was making a mistake, therefore I apologise for having used the word hope.

MR ZILWA: In other words what you are really saying is you feel that he had said everything that you would have wanted to say pertaining the incident?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you associate yourself with his evidence?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you associate yourself with that evidence?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I agree with his evidence.

MR ZILWA: Anything else which you may wish to say to this Committee which I didn't ask you about?

LUNGILE MAZWI: No, there is nothing else that I can think of.

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, that is the witness' evidence.

MR ZILWA: .

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mazwi, did you lie to the criminal court in which you were tried to try and ensure that you would escape imprisonment?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR SMUTS: Are you giving the account that you give to this Committee today, so that you can be released from imprisonment?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: Is there any difference between the veracity of your evidence in the criminal court and the veracity of your evidence today?

ADV DE JAGER: What is that supposed to mean Mr Smuts?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, there is a difference.

MR SMUTS: May I pursue that Mr Chairman.  What is that difference?

LUNGILE MAZWI: What I said in court was not the truth.  I was just trying to be released and not to be arrested or to be prosecuted.

MR SMUTS: When did you become involved in the so-called operation which led to the attack on the 13th of April 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Can you please repeat your question sir?

MR SMUTS: At what stage, at what date, at what time, did you become involved in the operation which led to the ambush on the 13th of April 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: On Sunday I met comrade Nyalukana where we spoke about this matter about the killing of comrade Chris.
	We then agreed to do whatever we can do so that we can show that we are against what happened.

MR SMUTS: Did you on that Sunday take any decision as to what it was that you would do?