Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR BERGER: I am sorry, there was a whole piece of evidence that was not translated.  There was a whole piece of evidence that wasn't translated, or it didn't come through to me.

INTERPRETER: He repeated what he had said before, that the process was not thoroughly explained to him, therefore he did not know that he could divulge the whole truth.

MR BERGER: When did you first decide to apply to the TRC for amnesty?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be certain of the exact date, I think my Attorney would be in a better position to assist you with regards to the date.

MR BERGER: It was after your conviction, am I correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you decided that you needed to apply to the Amnesty Committee of the TRC so that your conviction could be set aside, would that be right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And at the same time, you were going to appeal against your conviction to a higher Court, to the Appellate Division, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you told the Committee this morning that you are not in court now, you are before the Committee, so you have to tell the truth.  Do you remember that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Did you mean to imply by that, that in court you can lie, but before the TRC you can't lie?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: In court it is possible to lie, because you may deny the charges, even if you are rightfully charged.  In my instance though, what I was denying, was something that I had not committed and the Judge, after all my explanation, insisted on convicting me for something I did not commit.

MR BERGER: So in court you told the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, yes, I did tell the truth in court.

MR BERGER: And when you decided to apply for amnesty, you were prepared to tell the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: When I applied for amnesty, yes, my intention was to tell the truth, but as I have explained before, I did not know what the functions and the process of the TRC was.

MR BERGER: And for that reason, you told a lie?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have just explained to you, the reason why I said what I said was because of the lack of knowledge that I had.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that you realised that the case you have set out about not being aware of the attack, knowing nothing about the attack, not participating in the attack, you realise you can't get amnesty for that?  Isn't that correct?
	Because to get amnesty, you have to have done something wrong.  I have explained Mr Berger, that the lack of information with regards to the TRC, prevented me from divulging the information that I have just divulged today.
	I do not know what else should I tell you.

MR BERGER: Just to finish the point I was making, so you now involve yourself in discussions about the attack, so that you can get amnesty.  Isn't that what you are doing?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is this, you knew that in order to get amnesty, you must have done something wrong.  Do you understand that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: What I knew was that I had to seek amnesty for the crimes that we were charged and convicted for.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is being put to you further is that because on your version, namely that you did not do anything as you said in court, you knew that you could not get amnesty for that, do you understand that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is now why it is being put to you, you are somewhat belatedly telling this Commission that you were somehow involved in the decision to attack Boipatong because you want to tell this Committee that you did something wrong, so that you can get amnesty.  Is that the gist of what you want to put to this witness?

MR BERGER: That is exactly the point, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you understand that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand, although it is not true.  I have told the truth before this Committee that I was involved in the planning.

MR BERGER: All right.  You were also asked at page 50, paragraph 7 the following question, did the Steering Committee discuss the pending attack and if so, please supply the particulars of such discussions, including the dates.
	You know about the Steering Committee at kwaMadala hostel, do you?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I would just like to explain about the committees that were in existence at kwaMadala hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us about those committees.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: There was a committee that was tasked with ensuring the welfare of the residents.  This committee consisted of Mr Mthembu, Mr Kumane, Mr Ntuli as well as Shohesa and Mr Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Please continue?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The senior committee of the IFP was comprised of Thembinkosi Khumalo who was the Chairperson, his assistant was Richard Nqumalo.  It was Richard Ndwandwe.

MR BERGER: Are you correcting yourself, I am just not clear?

CHAIRPERSON: Continue.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The Secretary was Mr Jerome Zungu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Zuma or Zungu?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Zuma.   I am not sure whether it is Zuma or Zungu.  Zuma.  His assistant was Mr Qunchu, Damara Qunchu.
	The Treasurer was Mr Ngobesi and his assistant was Buthelezi, Zwayinga Buthelezi.  The Publicity Officer was Gasu, I forgot his first name.   I have forgotten the others and our record books were also confiscated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger - you have only mentioned two committees.  Are those the only committees that existed at the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was Mthembu's committee, the youth committee and the senior committee as well as a committee that was tasked with arranging funerals.  There were four committees in total.

CHAIRPERSON: You were busy telling us about those committees.  You have only told us about the two, what is the third one?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: With regards to the funeral committee, there were two members in that committee, it was Mr Vincent Khanyile and a Mr Mbungosi, whose first name I have forgotten.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is the fourth committee.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi.  It is the youth committee Mr Chairperson.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The fourth committee was the youth committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: Thank you.  Now,  you say there were four committees in total at kwaMadala, is that right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many of those committees were part of the IFP structures in the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: There were two committees that were part of those structures.

MR BERGER: And they were which committees?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The senior committee, the Chairperson being Thembinkosi Khumalo and the youth committee of which I was the Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And besides those two committees, were there any other IFP structures at kwaMadala?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: According to my knowledge, these were the only two structures of the organisation.  That is disregarding the Women Brigade.

MR BERGER: Okay.  I have asked you about this question which was put to you about the Steering Committee and in fairness to you, I must just tell you that the Steering Committee is the committee that you describe as being the Welfare Committee, that is the committee of Mr Moses Mthembu.
	You were asked whether that committee had discussed the pending attack and your answer at page 55, paragraph 7, is I have no knowledge of their discussions.
	Is that answer true?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It is true for the reason that I was not aware whether they had any information with regards to the impending attack.

MR BERGER: What you deliberately left out of this reply is that you had knowledge of other discussions of other committees about the pending attack, would that be right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did mention the names of the people with whom I discussed the matter.