bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

DATE: 24 FEBRUARY 1997      DAY 1

PAGE NO: BRIG CRONJE					1   -  20
CAPT HECHTER				21  -  37
ADDRESSES					38  -  67
LEGINA MABELA				68  -  71
CAPT MENTZ					72  -  90

DATE: 25 FEBRUARY 1997	  DAY 2
VIDEO COMMENTARY				91  -  109
BRIG CRONJE					109 -  115
2ND VIDEO COMMENTARY			116 -  134
CAPT HECHTER				135 -  138
CAPT MENTZ					139 -  170
THOLAKELE NGQULUNGA			171 -  180
CAPT MENTZ					180 -  184
W/O VAN VUUREN				184 -  204
CAPT HECHTER				204 -  214

DATE: 26 FEBRUARY 1997      DAY 3
ADDRESS					215 -  225
S MURUDU					225 -  258
BRIG CRONJE					258 -  291
CAPT HECHTER				291 -  294
W/O VAN VUUREN				295 -  299

DATE: 27 FEBRUARY 1997	  DAY 4
GEN VAN DER MERWE			300 -  344
ADDRESS					345 -  349
COL VENTER					350 -  350
W/O BEESLAAR				351 -  353
BRIG CRONJE					353 -  395
RULING - JUDGE MALL			395 -  396
ADDRESS					396 -  401

DATE: 28 FEBRUARY 1997      DAY 5
BRIG CRONJE					401 -  423
BRIG VAN WYK				424 -  437
COL LOOTS					438 -  454
CAPT HECHTER				455 -  495
ADDRESS					495 -  509
C RIBEIRO					509 -  518

DATE: 3 MARCH 1997				  DAY 6
RULING - JUDGE MALL			519 -  520
C RIBEIRO					520 -  534
CAPT HECHTER				535 -  597
M CHIKANE					598 -  635
W/O VAN VUUREN				635 -  653
COL LOOTS					655 -  667
GENERAL RAS					669 -  687

DATE: 5 MARCH				   DAY 7
COL SIBULELA				688 -  719
MS HLABANGANE				722 -  745
ADDRESS					745 -  750
CAPT HECHTER				751 -  804

DATE: 6 MARCH			   DAY 8
CAPT HECHTER				805 -  832
CAPT MENTZ					833 -  848
M MALOBOLA					849 -  855
ADDRESS					855 -  860
COL VENTER					860 -  882
ADDRESS					882 -  886
W/O VAN VUUREN				886 -  905
CAPT HECHTER				906 -  907
J LERUTLA					909 -  913
M SIBAYA					914 -  919
ADDRESS					919 -  928

DATE: 7 MARCH				   DAY 9
BRIG CRONJE					928 -  954
COL VENTER					955 -  958
MR LUKHELE					959 -  1003
Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

ADV DE JAGER: You yourself were never stationed at 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 164

UNKNOWN: Vlakplaas or under that command?

UNKNOWN: No, not at all Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, when exactly did Brigadier Cronje come over from Vlakplaas 
to the Security  Branch?

UNKNOWN: I am not sure, I suspect it was about 1986, late 1985, it must have been then 
late 1985.

HASSAN MALL: We've already had (...indistinct)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman the evidence was led right at the beginning.  It makes it very 
difficult the time period inbetween, because a lot of the issues and the aspects which seem to create certain 
problems, have already long ago been dealt with in evidence, but obviously nobody's recollection is so 
good that one can remember everything, but that was dealt with specifically in the evidence previously.

HASSAN MALL: No further questions?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: I think at this stage we will take an adjournment if it's convenient.  We will resume at 
nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, Scheepers Morudi is here, will we not hear him today?

HASSAN MALL: Unfortunately not, I've indicated that for
certain reasons we are going to adjourn at quarter to four today and if he can be available tomorrow 
morning at nine o'clock ...
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 165

MR CURRIN: I see.  I will advise him, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: We will adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS.
Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-07-01

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just ask you about these so-called Silverton case referred to. I don't know whether you are able to remember whether, what these people were convicted of?

JOHAN VAN EYCK: No, Chairperson, I don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Because my recollection would be that they were not convicted of robbery.

JOHAN VAN EYCK: Chairperson, I am not aware of the circumstances and what they were convicted of.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you, Chairperson.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Van Eyck, just to be fair to you. The contention made to you by my learned friend of the ANC pamphlet, is on a pamphlet dated the 7th of August 1988, and the one allegedly made by Mr Tambo is dated 1986.  Will you agree with me that all these were said before the unbanning of political organisations?

JOHAN VAN EYCK: That is correct, Chairperson, that is before these organisations were unbanned.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know whether after 1990 or even during 1990 itself, no such provocative statements were issued by any political organisation?

JOHAN VAN EYCK: Not that I am aware of.  Not that I am aware of, Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hear about the logo "one settler, one bullet"; when was that issued, at what point?

JOHAN VAN EYCK: Yes, there were slogans like that going around, I remember that.

HASSAN MALL: Very well, you may stand down.

JOHAN VAN EYCK: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

HASSAN MALL: Do you wish to call any other witnesses?

MEV VAN DER WALT: If you would just give me a moment.  Chairperson, I would like to ask for a short adjournment. I would just like to reconsider my position before I close the applicant's case, if you will perhaps grant me a short adjournment.

HASSAN MALL: Adjournment granted.

MEV VAN DER WALT: Thank you very much.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

MEV VAN DER WALT: I would, if you would give me the opportunity I would like to attempt to either place documentation before the Commission or to call a witness who will answer some of these questions. If you would perhaps grant me an adjournment until tomorrow, I will give you the assurance that we will be prepared to argue the case tomorrow and we will not waste any further time tomorrow, if you will grant me this indulgence.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, will you be inconvenienced if this matter is stood down until tomorrow morning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I will not be inconvenienced.

HASSAN MALL: Mrs Van der Walt, your application for an adjournment has been considered and I am prepared to grant you the indulgence you ask.

MEV VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: The hearing is adjourned until tomorrow morning, 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1976-07-19

MR GIMSBEEK: At this stage his political views correspond roughly with mine.  Everyone has a right to exist on this earth, we are each granted a place in the sun and can live together in peace.  I recently worked at the elections and I was the only White amongst a number of other races and there was great harmony between us. We can work together as the people of South Africa and make a success of this beautiful land.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GIMSBEEK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rhoode have you any questions to ask?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RHOODE
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr van Wyk I get the impression that your son at some stage that he was a (...indistinct)

MR G VAN WYK: Not with the background that he has had in our home.  But I didn't know that he is so racist, really I didn't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you wouldn't know, considering the way you brought him up, you would be at a loss as to why he would tend to be that racist?

MR G VAN WYK: Ja, no I wouldn't be able to understand that, because really I brought him up not in that way, not a racist, that I can put my hand on the Bible.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr van Wyk when did you first become aware that your son had espoused, was espousing such ultra rightwing political views?

MR G VAN WYK: When Mr du Plessis phoned me and said our sons have been arrested.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So all along until the arrest of your son you were not aware that he had ...(intervention)

MR G VAN WYK: No I wasn't aware.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That he had become espoused to such views.

MR G VAN WYK: I had forbidden him to talk politics in my house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR G VAN WYK: Thank you Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR GIMSBEEK: Mr Chairman I beg leave to hand up a document which my learned friend, which we have agreed on, it's not necessary to lead a witness on this, it's just a letter of recommendation from the Head of Education  of the Pretoria Central Prison, a Mr Zulu.  It just confirm what Mr van Wyk said that he does indeed teach the illiterate in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  This is the first document that is being handed in.  Mr Mpshe what number do you want to give this document?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It will be Exhibit A Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A it shall be.
EXHIBIT A HANDED UP - LETTER FROM PRETORIA CENTRAL PRISON

MR GIMSBEEK: Then I can just add that there are going to be other witnesses that are going to testify on behalf of Mr van Wyk but we thought that it would be better to let Mr du Plessis finish his testimony then these witnesses could testify on behalf of both of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR GIMSBEEK: At this stage there are no other witnesses pertaining to van Wyk specifically.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to take a short adjournment at this stage to receive information about the future proceedings tomorrow and the day after and we will come in as soon as we are ready, and so we take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-14

MR WILLS: So now, who made this decision, who issues, you talk about a decision, your affidavit speaks of Prince Gideon saying that you should kill this person, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is the truth.

MR WILLS: And that related to both the male nurse by the name of Khumalo and also Nathi Gomedi?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is so, the three.

MR WILLS: Now, as I understand your evidence and you have also given evidence to this effect before Judge Van der Reiden in the trial on this matter, you were provided with a kwaZulu government vehicle, an Opel Monza, to be utilized for this purpose, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: This vehicle was provided from the Chief Minister's department?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Who gave you the keys for this vehicle?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Mr Robert Mzimela who was the Secretary of the Legislature for the kwaZulu government at the time.

MR WILLS: Yes, now is it not so that you had this vehicle for a number of days and you conducted quite an extensive amount of mileage in this vehicle, I think if my memory serves me correct, it was something in the region of 3 800 kilometres?  Is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: That was close to 5 000 kilometres.

MR WILLS: Yes, and is it not also correct that you were issued with a card or a means by which you could fill up with petrol on the kwaZulu government's account and also if you wanted, you could take the car in for services in the same account?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, we were given a petrol book and the order book.  An order book would be used for repairing for tyres and any broken parts of the car.
	The petrol book was strictly for petrol and oil.

MR WILLS: So in essence you were given a free hand to utilise this vehicle for whatever distance or whatever purpose you wanted to use the vehicle for, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: You did in fact drive to Eshowe to try and execute the order to kill the male nurse Khumalo, but because of Police in the area, you abandoned that mission, is that not correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: No, he is not a nurse.  He is a male nurse, he is a male nurse, it was not a female.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Is it not true that the mission was eventually abandoned and you didn't in fact execute this command?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: We failed, we failed to kill him on arrival at Eshowe.

MR WILLS: And that was because there were Police in the vicinity and there were South African Defence Force patrols at the time you were in Eshowe?  Is that right, it was too risky to proceed with the operation?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, your evidence is to the effect that you then went to Durban after picking up a person by the name of Andile Xele, who was a person who was used to point out where Nathi was then residing.  You found where Nathi was, you kidnapped him, you brought him back to eSikhawini where you killed him, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you explain the circumstances of his murder?
Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

MR BERGER: I haven't checked that but I assume that they do.

CHAIRPERSON: I've checked with that, I think they do.

MR LAX: Confirmed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the point I'm making is that form 1, which is the requirement in terms of the Act for the launching of an application was resubmitted afresh in February 1998.  If the applications and even if there is a connection between this document and the previous document, my submission is that the applications must stand or fall by what was submitted to the TRC prior to the cut off date and I understand my learned friends' heads of argument, at least we're agreed on that, that the validity or otherwise of the applications must be judged in the light of a document which was submitted timeously.  Now the Committee has a copy of one of those applications and we have been told that they are all identical.  Our submissions are that Section 20 of the Act sets up three jurisdictional requirements for Amnesty.
a)	 That it must comply with the requirements of the act, the application.
	b)	That is must be an act associated with a political objective
	c)	That there must be full disclosure.
The basis of the argument is that those are three separate jurisdictional facts, each of which has to be satisfied in order for the Committee to be in a position to grant amnesty.
	The Act in Section 20 says that if the Committee is satisfied on those three jurisdictional facts then it shall grant amnesty.  The use of the word "shall" is instructive because it would seem that at that stage, once those three jurisdictional facts are satisfied, then the Committee has no option but to grant amnesty, hence the use of the word "shall."
	However, it's the basis of the argument that if any one of those three jurisdictional facts is not satisfied, then in our submission, the Committee does not have the power to grant amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't there a distinction here, the two sections - the first section, Section 18 of the Act, which makes provision for the submission of the applications for amnesty and it's set out that it shall be submitted on the prescribed form within the time allowed?
	The second section is Section 19 (i) which deals with what the Amnesty Committee is required to do upon receiving any application and it includes, amongst other things, the power to give directions as to the completion of that application and resubmission of that application and then calling for further particulars if the Committee deems that necessary and then there is the third section which is the section that you're referring to - that section deals with the power to grant and it set out the circumstances under which it grants.  It seems - prime facie - it seems to me that the [inaudible] question is, what is the proper construction of Section 19 (i) -that seems to me to be the essential issue.

MR BERGER: Well, Chairperson, in our submission it's - the essential issue is what is the proper construction to be placed on Section 18 of the Act, because Section 18 is the starting point.

CHAIRPERSON: But clearly that Section must be read with Section 19.
Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, these aren't submissions but to indicate what the practice has been in the Amnesty Committee.  As you might be aware there have been scores and scores of applications, scores and scores of applications which have defective by virtue of the fact that they have either not been signed properly, in other words one assumes that an illiterate has merely put his mark or cross, where there has been no attestation by a Commissioner of Oaths.  When those defective applications come in they are registered, they are given an AM number.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what has been done in the past, the question is whether, you know, does the Committee have the power to do that?  I think that is the issue that we have to look at.  It may well be that the practice has been followed in the past and it may well be that the practice was not consistent with the Act.

MR BRINK: No, I understand that, Mr Chairman, I merely raised it in the light of the remarks you made towards Mr Berger and that was all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll give the ruling at two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll now adjourn until tomorrow morning in this same venue and we'll start at 09h30 tomorrow morning and, tomorrow we will receive submissions from the legal representatives.  That includes you as well.

MS MTANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll adjourn then till tomorrow 09h30.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

CHAIRPERSON: Professor, this idea, I know it's an old idea, that the medical advice, if you want to call it that, of these traditional healers, may have been believed in without question in those days and on many occasions one reads the law books, reads the newspapers, it results in young children's bodies being mutilated and again I mean no disrespect to anybody, but it is frightening and I'm shocked by having to hear for the first time in my life today that basically those people who eventually died, had to be alive when such human parts were removed.  I can just imagine the pain those people must have been going through.  From your research, are the people who formed part of the society in this area moving away from those beliefs, or are those beliefs still crystallised here?

UNKNOWN: Many people are moving away from such beliefs, for example, once a person disappears around here, people are no longer scared to go report, whereas in the past when the traditional leaders were bosses, say  "well, who am I to go and say chief A did it", but now that courts are there and these courts have been proved in the past to have successfully dealt with chiefs, so once a person's involved in a muti murder case, the police easily find many people ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, I fully understand that is the legal mechanisms in which they deal, I am talking about the belief itself, the mentality.

UNKNOWN: I will say many people are no longer at it.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, good.  So it's slowly dying.

UNKNOWN: I think I'll even say fast.

CHAIRPERSON: And hopefully we'll be able to spare many more lives now.

UNKNOWN: Correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I can imagine parents having to find out that their young child has been mutilated, it could not have been a nice experience.

UNKNOWN: Correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Sir.

MR NDOU: May he be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, do you need the professor any more?

MS PATEL: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just in case we need him, is he easily available?

MR NDOU: Yes, he's available, his offices are just across the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he can be excused.
	Thank you for your assistance.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I want to say that I understand that it is not that easy to face life without a breadwinner at home, so our irresponsibility that led to his being removed from the community, was not that waste, it was the emotions of the people of the time and the time was itself was pregnant so no one about to stop it, we just wanted to do what the time wanted us to do.  So I'm so sorry and those sons, those who are sitting there, I have grown up with, especially Eric and Boshoff.  They were my friends.  We used to share clothes, food and all life, we shared everything in life, so I don't want to see them sitting there saying Roger is responsible for my father's death, so I want to embrace them as my friends.  Since we have started as friends, I want them to finish with friends with me, because I don't have any cry today.  I have learned through bitter experiences, I have been to prison for about 6 years and 6 months, so it has been a learning experience to me also to be alone, thinking about what has happened, that led me being behind bars.   So it was not easy for me too to accept life behind bars.  I have tried my level best to be a responsible person, as I have learned to be responsible, I am responsible till today.  I don't think I will have to make that flaw that I did before.  So I can say thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you want to say?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn to 9 a.m. tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, if I may interrupt; regarding the evidence, the questions put to the witness by the Committee members, there is just one statement that I omitted to make regarding the trek pass, and if the Chairman to give me the opportunity, it will just be a statement.  Mr Ramasitsi the deceased's wife Rossinah will come and testify that she had absolutely no knowledge of this "trek pass" that you are testifying about and that she never saw such a document.

MR RAMASITSI: I won't be surprised because the "trek pass" was not meant for her, it was for her husband.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: You may be excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

ADV DE JAGER: The leader of the Youth Congress didn't speak at the meeting, is that correct?

ABEL MULADY: Yes, he didn't address the meeting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: But Abel Mulady, he did address the meeting?

ABEL MULADY: Yes, he spoke, he addressed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you now saying that there was another person with the name of Abel Mulady except yourself?

CHAIRPERSON: Or are you the person that spoke?

ABEL MULADY: Sorry, I am saying I am Abel Mulady who spoke or addressed the meeting, however the leader of the Youth Congress, Finnias Mulady, did not address the meeting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If you refer to Abel Mulady that addressed the meeting, was that yourself or another person?

ABEL MULADY: That is why I am saying, I am saying Abel Mulady, me and I am the one who addressed the meeting on that day.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So you acted also as the leader at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you chairing that meeting?

ABEL MULADY: I was not a leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you chairing the meeting, it doesn't matter if you are not a leader, were you chairing the meeting?

ABEL MULADY: Yes, I was chairing the meeting on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you evading the questions, simple questions?

ABEL MULADY: Well, I am trying to confuse Mulady with Abel Mulady because these are two different people.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you chaired that meeting?

ABEL MULADY: Yes, I am saying that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I put it to you sir, that this Finnias Mulady was not the Chairman and that there was in fact not a Chairman to this Youth Congress and that it was just a loose organisation and that you were one of the leaders thereof.

ABEL MULADY: I have already explained initially that Finnias Mulady, when he was given this leadership role for Mahvunga Youth Congress, I didn't know about it, I only learnt about that later after the death of the deceased.

MR VAN RENSBURG: The last question is can you perhaps explain, no, I will leave that, thank you, I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MS PATEL: You have read my mind, Honourable Chairperson, I don't.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, do you have any questions?

MR NDOU: I don't wish to take this any further.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, can we take a five minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: No I don't, thank you, honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any further questions?

MR NDOU: None.

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: No thank you, no questions.  You can go.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Could you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: You accepted as the truth that - I'm talking about in the meeting?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: When we were in the meeting, what was considered it was what we consider what we call in Venda, I don't know how can I put it, I can say popular view that is that thing being having more support.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

MR NDOU: Thank you.  In fact perhaps just to bring this to the Committee's attention, this applicant yesterday as we understood from one of the victims, he did come here but apparently said he was no longer interested in continuing with the thing but he didn't come to tell me that he was not interested and that's why we just assumed that he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But we know that he wasn't given a notice and we can't take the chance of somebody coming to say that you know, you didn't give me a chance to place my case if you never gave me a notice?  Had he received a notice and not reacted I would have continued.

MR NDOU: But that's why we're trying to take precautions.  We have a similar matter where two of them have been released.  We've sent people now to try and get them to be here tomorrow just to avoid that situation.  If they're here they're able to tell me that I shall withdraw their applications if they're not interested.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Yes there is, Honourable Chairperson, it's according to your list number 9, it's the murder of France Khomogwe and the name of the applicant is Mashamba.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, the gentleman that was - an attempt can be made to get him here tomorrow as well and maybe we get lucky and maybe we can help this applicant out sooner?

MR NDOU: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Please I'll really want him to help this man out.

MR NDOU: I'll put it on my shoulders to try and go and find him.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you explain to him then his application will not be proceeded with now, we'll postpone it to tomorrow then in the hope that we get special instructions.  If not then we'll have to postpone it sine die.

MR NDOU: I'll do so, he's a different applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR NDOU: This is Mashamba now.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that number 9?

MR NDOU: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mashamba, what language would you prefer to use?
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, sorry to cut you short but I found the copy of the letter that was in fact faxed to Mr Lerule on the 6th of October already in which these applicants names appear requesting the particulars to all supplementary affidavits.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was it faxed to?

MS PATEL: It was faxed on the 6th of October.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom.

MS PATEL: To Mr Lerule.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's he?

MS PATEL: He's the coordinator Honourable Chairperson, the chosen representative for IV(?) applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the member attached to the Messina Municipality?

MS PATEL: That is correct.  He is also the person who assisted all the applicants in filling out the application forms and sending them to our offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Well my attention has been drawn to the fact that the Evidence Leader has in fact a copy and proof of faxing that letter to your chosen coordinator, nothing happened since.  I'm not going to say what to do about that, that is for you to decide, the fact of the matter is that we are unable to proceed with this matter and unfortunately it will have to be postponed sine die.  It is so ordered.
MATTER POSTPONED SINE DIE
	Is there any other matter?

MS PATEL: Yes there is Honourable Chairperson if you'll just grant me a moment.

MR MUSHASHA: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, may I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just please explain to your clients what has happened and the reasons for the postponement?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, the next matter on the roll is that of the murder of one Gumant, the amnesty applicant's name is Matelo and in terms of your list it's number H.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no specific appearance for any family members?

MS PATEL: No they were notified though, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position about Mr Van Rensburg's interests in other matters?

MS PATEL: I believe that Mr Ndou indicated that he would try and locate the applicant Matelo, perhaps he can give us a report on that.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, we proceeded to the applicant's home, yesterday and we didn't find him but we left a message that they should tell him to come today, so hopefully we think he will be able to come today.

CHAIRPERSON: No we don't want Mr Van Rensburg to waste his time here.

MR NDOU: I understand he's arrived now, I understand he's here, he's just gone out to the toilet.
NAME
Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

MS PATEL: That is so Honourable Chairperson.  Alright thank you Honourable Chairperson, then we move to incident 12, the incident of ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: He will give you the names of all the implicated persons and addresses so that they can be notified?

MS PATEL: Yes I am sure that he will Honourable Chairperson.  Then the next incident is that of the murder of M Nemulenzi, the applicant there is Mulatsi.  I believe that Mr Ndou wishes to withdraw this application.

MR NDOU: That is correct Honourable Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he in the hearing?

MR NDOU: He's not present today Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get instructions to ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: Yes my instructions are that he is no longer interested in proceeding.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.  The next matter is that of the assualt on Petrus Nudau, the applicant there is Singo.  I believe that Mr Ndou is in the same position as with the ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: Ja if may explain that one, that is a separate application from the rest.  I received that from the TRC but I've been trying to get hold of this particular Singo in vain and when I looked at his application documents I noticed that he was only sentenced to six-months imprisonment way back in 1990 and it will be very very difficult to fight.
    But maybe if the matter could just be postponed sine die so that we could try to find him.  If next time he's not here I'll try to go to his home because I've got his address.  If he's not there I will just withdraw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou as I understand it you're going to make efforts to get hold of him.

MR NDOU: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: That would then be all Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, can I ask you something.  Most of these matters we are being forced to postpone for some technicality involving notices in compliance with the Act.  A number of the instances have been brought about by a lack of information given to the TRC by the applicants, such as names of implicated people and their addresses and perhaps even the addresses and names of the victims.
    Now that you have a list of all the applicants, could you perhaps in 14 days time see to it that a list of those names under the different categories with their addresses reaches this specific Evidence Leader, Ms Patel.

MR NDOU: I don't have any problem with that, I'll as from today because we'll have the time to do that I'll use the time to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: The other thing is I need your assistance in explaining to your clients what the actual problems were that we couldn't proceed with their cases.  They all look sitting there very disappointed and I can understand why, but unfortunately it's a matter that's out of our hands.  We will try to come back as soon as possible. Okay, thank you then all.  The matters are postponed and this session is adjourned.

MR NDOU: Thank you Chairman.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes it is true, I know he wouldn't really approve of what we were doing, because that is why we used stop doing what we were doing, but we work under pressure.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in your standing orders or in your code of conduct or in you rules and regulations whatever you want to call them, that the police should not assault persons arrested?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, we did sign all those undertakings that we do not have to beat people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Meyer, do you have questions arising from questions that have been put by members of the panel.

MR MEYER: Nothing thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  Thank you Director, that concludes your evidence you may stand now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is a convenient although a late time to adjourn.  Would you be available to start tomorrow at nine o'clock.

MR MEYER: Anytime Mr Chairman, no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned that you had some sort of problem tomorrow. You were called in at late notice.  Have you managed to make any arrangements?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Chairman, I did manage to make some arrangements.  I will be here at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Would that be suitable Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Yes that suits me fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I would like to thank the people for working a bit of overtime this evening.  We'll now adjourn and resume with this hearing tomorrow morning in the same venue, the 5th of May at 9 o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Today we were due to hear the amnesty applications of Brian Clifford Thobejane; Thomas Ngobeni and Donald Mukhawana, but unfortunately we have been informed that the notice, as required by the Act, Act no.34 of 1995 to be given to the victims of the incident was never received by them, and on following this up we have learnt that the victim indeed was in fact waiting for the notices in the expectation of attending the hearing, and is not available.  He is apparently out of the country.  So we are compelled, in the circumstances, unfortunately to postpone this hearing.
	On the positive side we do have a fixed date for the postponement next month.  We are not in the situation where we usually are to postpone it to a date to be arranged because we will be coming back here next month.  
	So we will not be able to proceed with the hearing but before we do the postponement I would like, please, to ask the legal representatives to place themselves on record.

MR MABENA: My name is Mabena, and I have been instructed to appear on behalf of the applicants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and members of the Committee.  My name is Lulanga Mbandazayo.  I am also representing the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
	The date for the hearing will be the 30th of June 1999 at this same venue and we will start at either 09H30 if you can aim for that.  I apologise to everybody concerned about the inconvenience caused by the postponement.  As I say it was a matter certainly out of the Panel's hands here because we would certainly have liked to have proceeded with it today.
	Before we adjourn I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everybody concerned for allowing us to have the hearings here this week.  We started here on Tuesday and I must say it's a very nice venue and we are appreciative to the authorities who supplied the venue to us.
	We would also like to express our appreciation to the security provided to us, in particular Captain Mkushe and his team, as well as the Uniformed Branch and the Traffic Branch; the caterers who have fed us so well, and the sound technicians and everybody else involved - Lulanga, Ms Mtanga for the work that she has done etc, Ashley etc, thank you very much.
	So we will then postpone this matter to the 30th of June.  We will also reserve the 31st of June just to make sure that we do not pick up a part-heard matter, although one, taking a look at the record, would expect it to be finished in the one day.  Thank you, and again we apologise for the inconvenience.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-06-30

CHAIRPERSON: Today we will be hearing theapplications of Messrs Thobejane, Ngobeni and Mukhawana.  The proceedings willbe simultaneously translated and in order to benefit from the translation, youhave to be in possession of one of these devices, headphone and the device attachedto it, they are available from the Sound Technician, please ensure that youhave one.  Before we start, I would like to introduce the panel to you.  Onmy left is Judge Sisi Khampepe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee ofthe Truth and Reconciliation Commission, she is an acting Judge, attached tothe Cape High Court and on my left is Adv Francis Bosman, also a member of theAmnesty Committee.  She is an Advocate by profession, from the Cape and I amSelwin Miller, also a Judge of the High Court, from the Eastern Cape, attachedto the Transkei Division of that court.  I would like to ask the legal representativeskindly to place themselves on record.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourablemembers of the Committee, my name is Lungelo Mbandazayo.  I am representingthe applicants in this matter.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  MrVan Rensberg?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, myname is Van Rensberg, S.J. from Kriek and Van Rensberg Attorneys, Tzaneen. Today I represent the victim in this investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Van Rensberg.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I am LulamaMtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  I thinkwe will now proceed with the hearing, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson,the first applicant will be Brian Clifford Thobejane.  Can he be sworn in Chairperson?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Thank you Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee.  Chairperson,let me first apologise that the copies have not yet been made for the affidavits,they will be made in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: I am informed by the LogisticsOfficer that the photocopy machine is on its way here and as soon as it arrives,they will make copies of the affidavit which will be given to all the partiesconcerned, thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  MayI proceed Chairperson?  Mr Thobejane, do you confirm that this affidavit wasmade by yourself and you abide by its contents?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, I agree.
Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo before you put any further questions to this witness may I just warn you that we will adjourn at four. So whenever it is convenient for you, you can just indicate.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman maybe this would be a convenient time. I am going over onto a different subject now so maybe it is convenient.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Now just on this one aspect that my colleagues have touched upon, would we understand you correctly to say to us that you never intended to break the law throughout this incident that you are talking about now?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That was never my intention.

CHAIRPERSON: You were doing your official duties as a member of the then Transkeian Security Force.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You had done nothing - on the day of the abortive coup, you had done nothing to assist the plotters to execute their plan.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Not at all, I never did anything to assist them.  Yes, I was amongst them.

CHAIRPERSON: And when they mandated you to look out of police roadblocks and the other things, you used that opportunity to actually report back to your superiors, would that be correct?  You never looked out for roadblocks, you actually reported back to your superiors?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact right up to the very last moment you were working against the interest of the plotters.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And have I heard you correctly to say that the reason why you are here today is simply just to explain to people that that was the true position, you were not part of these people?  Is that the reason?  In fact as I understand it, is that the only reason why you are here today?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is the main reason and I also want to ask for forgiveness to the people who are looking at me as the person who is a perpetrator and secondly, as a person who had served the government for so many years without giving me my money.  If the Committee - if it is possible, please I would like to get that money.  And as I was convicted I would like to request if possible my fingerprints to be erased so that any criminal record against my name be removed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Malan, any re-examination?

MR MALAN: Thank you Sir, no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Gumengu, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Malan, who is next.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Mr Nombanga.
Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was the conflict that was amongst the people in the Transkei, it had nothing to do with the political liberation movements that were banned, that were not in the Transkei.

MR SIBANYONI: In other areas like in other homelands, the majority of the people were in favour of the changes which were taking place away from the homelands, was it not the case with Transkei?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was going to be like that.

MR SIBANYONI: Why do you say you were acting in the interests of the people of the Transkei, when you are not sure whether they wanted you and Col Duli to seize power in Transkei?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: We were not going to rule Transkei, but the people of Transkei were going to rule Transkei and the changes were going to be done by the people of the Transkei, not the military.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Dambuza, any re-examination?

MS DAMBUZA: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Ntisana, thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, now I call Mzwamadoda Ntisana to the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's number 1 on our list.

MS DAMBUZA: It is number 1, it is applicant number 1, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

MR MALAN: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Just one, Chairperson.
	When you met with Mr Duli in Queenstown, how many were you in that meeting?

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: There were five of us.

MR MAPOMA: Would you could who you were?

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: It was myself, Hhlumelo, Mzwamadoda Ntisana, Bongolani Ndamase, Zandisile Bongweni and Col Craig Duli.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Mr Mazizi Ntisana?

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: He went with another car and then he came back and told us what he told us.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Has the Panel got any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: You said "he told us what he told us", what did he say?  What did Mazizi tell you?

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: Can you please repeat your question, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: You said Mazizi went into another car and then thereafter he came back and "told us", I want to hear from you what did he say.

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: It was Col Craig Duli who was speaking to us, Mazizi Ntisana was not in that meeting, he was in another car.  It was Col Duli who told us what he had told us.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Dambuza, any re-examination?

MS DAMBUZA: None, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Mxutu, you are excused, thank you.

HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairperson, I now call Zandisile Edwin Bongweni to the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-27

MR DUKADA: Can you just read further please.
MR SIQHOLA
"At the time I perpetrated the deeds referred to above, I did so with a bona fide belief that the Security Branch was fighting an evil significantly.  Though the time I was in the Security Branch, I did not have any political maturity, I had no idea about politics of the African National Congress and other organisations which were then banned.  At the time I genuinely believed that the Transkei Security Branch in collaboration with the South African Police, were correct in combatting the activities of the ANC, which was then regarded as a terrorist organisation.  I bona fide believed that at the time my conduct was justified and the detainees I assaulted, deserved such treatment because they were waging war, a war of communism to the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa."

MR DUKADA: Carry on, please.
MR SIQHOLA
"I would not have assaulted and tortured detainees if I had acquired a correct political education prior to the joining of the Transkei Security Branch.  All what I did was due to my rural background, empty-handedness and acute indoctrination I'd received from the Security Branch."

MR DUKADA: And you regard that you have disclosed a complete picture of your role as a member of the Security Branch in Transkei.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: As I have mentioned each and every detail, whatever happened that is not mentioned here, obviously happened during my absence.

MR DUKADA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members, that's the evidence of the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dukada.  Mr Mgidlana, are you in a position to ask questions now?

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, seeing that the time is almost about five to four, as well as I would like to clear some issues that were raised by the applicant, I will ask that if we could adjourn until tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: Chairperson, as I indicated earlier on ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're not in a position to question.

MR STOFILE: I would like to reserve my cross-examination, perhaps tomorrow, probably by that time  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To get instructions, and so you can read the papers.

MR STOFILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's almost 4 o'clock now and as indicated by the attorneys who are representing the victims and others, they have indicated that they wish to have a bit of time just to take some further instructions and to be able to read the papers properly before they start questioning, so this would then be a convenient time to adjourn.  We will adjourn until tomorrow morning in the same venue here.  Would 9 o'clock be convenient?

MR MGIDLANA: It will be convenient for me.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock tomorrow morning in this hall we'll carry on with this matter, when questions will be put to Mr Siqhola by the attorneys representing the victims.  So we'll adjourn until then.  Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS