Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

ADV DONEN: Are you saying you can't remember or are you saying it never happened?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Firstly I cannot remember it and secondly, I refrained from hitting people and leaving marks.

ADV DONEN: So could you have hit him without leaving marks?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is difficult, people bruise very easily Sir.

ADV DONEN: But would you remember it better if you hit him without making a mark, then if you hit him with making a mark?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Donen, being in front of this Commission and wanting truth and reconciliation, if Mr Pedro is telling the truth then, then I handcuffed him to the grillwork and smacked him around.

ADV DONEN: Insofar as the personnel that were present were concerned, he says that Nortje was with you and that both of you were asking different questions.	They related to a certain Anton Fisher and to detachments.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In all probability, yes.

ADV DONEN: He says that at about 11:30 in the morning, on the first day of his "interrogation", that Colonel Smit arrived while he was still handcuffed, naked and he gave instructions that Mr Pedro should be released, sorry that the handcuffs and the other paraphernalia with which he was tied up, should be taken off.	And they were duly taken off and his clothes were put on.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede.

ADV DONEN: So, then Colonel Smit must have known absolutely what you were doing, do you concede that as well?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Believe me, it is a long time ago.  I cannot with all certainty remember.

ADV DONEN: Now, the interrogation continued through the day, but here is an addition as far as I know to your repertoire.
"During the afternoon Mr Nortje wanted to know from me whom I was to meet in Lesotho.	I told him that I didn't know who this person was that I was to meet and I said that the letter containing this person's name, that I had swallowed this".
Can you remember that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

ADV DONEN: "Benzien then stopped interrogating me about the detachments and then wanted to know what the letter contained.  I told them that I didn't know what was said in the letter".
do you remember that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

ADV DONEN: "Benzien then took me to the toilet and inserted a stick into my anus and said that he would extract this letter from my stomach".

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir, that was put to me in the trial too.  It is a lie about the stick in his anus.  It was a lie then, it is still a lie now.  What I really wanted was the unpleasant task of him to squat on a piece of newspaper to pass a stool when necessary, the message that he had swallowed could perhaps be found.

ADV DONEN: And did you assist him in passing the stool?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I doubt if it is possible.

ADV DONEN: Well, I know of well-known medical means.  It might not have been as quick, but did you use any other means?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir, that allegation was made during the trial and I think it was a far fetched as what it is now.

ADV DONEN: So you wanted the document which he had swallowed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir, and he indicated that he wanted to go to the toilet.  And as shocking as it may sound, I wanted the document that he reputedly had swallowed.

ADV DONEN: Did he tell you that he wanted to go to the toilet at the same time he told you he had swallowed the document?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, no.  The document had allegedly been swallowed at the time of his arrest.  If you will remember correctly he had been arrested on the, I think it was the Saturday morning on the Lesotho border near, I can't think of the border name now, Telabridge if I am not mistaken, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just get in there.  What do you mean you caused him to squat on a piece of paper?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To pass a stool, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was that, in the office?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, in the toilets.

CHAIRPERSON: And did somebody stand next to him to await him to deliver?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir, it was me.

CHAIRPERSON: Alone?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he try to get the process going?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't remember if the process happened Sir.  I don't think we got the note.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, were you seriously, were you engaged in a serious attempt to try to recover the piece of paper or was this just a way of trying to intimidate or humiliate him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir, it was the note that he had swallowed.  The note may have contained intelligence.

CHAIRPERSON: You believed he had swallowed that piece of paper?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was told he had swallowed that note.

CHAIRPERSON: By somebody else?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: By the people from Aliwal North who had arrested him at Telabridge.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened eventually, if this was meant to be a serious exercise to get the paper back?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think either it was dissolved in the body or I don't think the note was found at the end.  This process was only, or waiting for it, only happened once and it wasn't found.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean, did he relieve himself?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he relieve himself there in the toilet?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not in the toilet, we didn't want to lose it.  On a piece of paper at the toilet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, did he do that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think he did, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what do you mean?  This must be something peculiar.  I thought you would be able to remember that straight away?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir as peculiar as what it may be, I cannot remember that the note was recovered.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what did you do?  The man delivered there, did you do anything?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The faeces was examined by me.

CHAIRPERSON: In his presence?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In his presence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DONEN: Thank you.  I think the other aspects are best left for argument.  I have no specific instructions from Mr Dramat, may I just ask?  Thank you, Mr Benzien.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DONEN

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions to ask of this witness?

MS INTHANGA: I would like to allow Mr Tasmil to present his questions for his victims, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I thought he is calling witnesses.  They were going to question Mr Benzien, but I can proceed if he can't do that now.

CHAIRPERSON: He has already questioned Mr Benzien.

MS INTHANGA: I will go on with my questions, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Benzien, in your interview with our Investigative Unit, you mentioned that before you proceeded to Mr Kriel's house or to the house where he was residing at the time of the incident, you had a meeting at the backyard of Athlone police station.  Will you please inform the Committee as to the purpose of that meeting and who attended that meeting?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was in the back of the Athlone police station.  The observation team or part of the observation team was there.  Lieutenant Liebenberg was there as well as members of the Anti-terrorist Unit.  I arrived with the police bakkie.	I there attached the logo of the Cape Town City Council to the doors and also requested a person to help me with the reconnaissance and it was decided that Sergeant Abels, I think he was a Sergeant at that time, being a Coloured member, would accompany me and we changed into our overalls.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that answer your question?

MS INTHANGA: Yes, it does Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, you did cross-examine the applicant.

MS INTHANGA: Yes, I did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: About the Kriel matter?

MS INTHANGA: Yes, I did Judge, but I made a request to the Committee to be given an opportunity to cross-examine him again on some aspects that came out during the cross-examination by the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.