Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question?

MR MACADAM: If he can confirm, did he receive any training after the contra-mobilisation phase while he was still at this camp.

WITNESS:   Yes, we did, but it was not in the camp that I mentioned before and it wasn't in the same year.  The second training we got it at Venda.  It didn't involve arms.  It wasn't a military training.  I will say it was a revision of what we were taught during the mobi-lisation phase because we were about to be deployed to do the work to mobilise for our organisation, the IFP.  After the Venda training, we were deployed at South Coast at a base called Umzumbe.  We arrived in the office of Chief Khawula.  We were using his old offices.  There was an old

MR MACADAM: /office

MR MACADAM: 1A office for Inkatha in that area and we were using it as a base.  We always go out to have rallies and also come back to the place and we used to visit many chiefs' areas, asking them to give us permission to go to the people and talk to them and we managed to address people mobilising for Inkatha.  We also went to high schools, warning children that they shouldn't be influenced by the UDF spirit and that's how we tried to build our organisation.  We visited many places at South Coast and we stayed there for about three months.  We went to many different chiefs and we even went up to Harding at Chief Makhi(?) and we're doing the very same work.  Therefore the course that we had in Venda was a preparation for the work that we're supposed to do at South Coast.

MR MACADAM: We want to take you back to this camp which you were flown to in this aircraft and clarify certain aspects.  You said yesterday that when you arrived there that there was this man whom you described as JJ and others who seemed to be in charge of the facility and seemed to be the person who initiated the initial training.  Did that continue throughout or were there other persons who took over and did this person leave at any stage?

WITNESS:   There were many, it wasn't only JJ alone.  As I have explained yesterday, we were divided into four platoons.  Each platoon has fifty people, therefore each platoon will have three to four instructors, depending on the phases that we had to go through, because we were not doing the same things at the same time.  While others were going to the South Coast, others will be taken to learn more about explosives;  the throwing of hand grenades.  Others might be in some other places where they will get lessons about

MR MACADAM: /house

MR MACADAM: 1A house penetration.  We might find at the very same time another platoon will be doing shooting range where they will be taught how to shoot at a target and also how to use very different kinds of firearms, therefore there was a need for more instructors, so that the work can be done at one time, because we didn't have much - enough time.  There was much work to be done, therefore JJ wasn't alone.

MR MACADAM: Did JJ and these other instructors ever tell you for whom they were working?

WITNESS:   No, they didn't.

MR MACADAM: Did Mr Daluxolo Luthuli have a hand in training you in the use of these various firearms and explosives and house penetration drills?

WITNESS:   He was just observing, sometimes in the evening after training, whilst sitting around the fire and relaxing.  He will just give us more knowledge about what we're doing during the day.  However, he wasn't the type of a person who will be instructing.  However, he was always there, observing, because he was recognised as a person who has the expertise when it comes to the military.

MR MACADAM: In the course of this training, did you and the other trainees receive any visits from any dignitaries at all?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: Who were those?

WITNESS:   The two senior leaders who came at the camp.  The first one was Mr M Z Khumalo.  During those days he was the personal assistant to the President of the IFP.  Another senior member came.  He was a senior member within the KwaZulu Police.  His name was Brigadier Sipho Mathe.  I don't remember any other person from this place, except the two that I mentioned.

MR MACADAM: You told the Commission yesterday that you became involved in the whole process on the basis that you were

MR MACADAM: /joining

MR MACADAM: 1A joining the KwaZulu Police?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MACADAM: While you were in this place, did you receive any police training at all?

WITNESS:   No, we didn't receive anything - any training relating to policing.

MR MACADAM: Did you at any stage receive any training as to how you should react with the police?

WITNESS:   We were not trained to work with the police.  We were trained to run away from them, because we were told that police were going to arrest us, because what we were doing was not lawful within the community, I mean the things that we were trained to come back and do within the country.  Therefore it was always emphasised that we should always try and avoid the police.  If I remember well, at one time when we were in training, we were supposed to learn about close combat to fight without the use of firearms.  We were told that such knowledge or training will help us to escape if we end up caught by the police, if there will be a need to run away from the police or from police cells(?).  We were taught about vital spots where you can hit a person to disable him or her;  to overcome the person and also disarm the person.  We were told that such training or knowledge will help us if we ever get arrested.  Therefore I say we were not taught how to work closely with the police.  Even if it wasn't said that we should consider the police as enemies, we knew that police might be a stumbling block on our way when fighting against the enemy.  Therefore we needed to have a way to get rid of the obstacle on our way.

MR MACADAM: And who told you all these things relating to the police?

WITNESS:   Our instructors.

MR MACADAM: And during this whole period that you were at this

MR MACADAM: /place,

MR MACADAM: 1A place, were you ever either told or trained firstly that your objective should be to protect local political leaders and politicians from unlawful attacks?

WITNESS:   I think the people who were supposed to come and do such jobs, they were those who were trained for VIP protection.  It wasn't going to be able for us to protect leaders.  How can we protect them with mortars, with RPG7 and rocket launchers?  How were we going to protect them with limpet mines?  To add, those RPK and the AKs were not legal firearms in South Africa, therefore we couldn't carry them around protecting the leaders at that time.  Trainings like house penetration, as I've explained is the kind of training which wasn't going to be used to protect leaders.  People who were trained to protect their leaders, are those whom I have explained that they left the camp two weeks before and they went for training in another place.  They were getting trained specifically to protect leaders.  We were not trained to protect.

MR MACADAM: Did ... (incomplete)

MR MACADAM: (END OF CASSETTE NO 1A)

MR MACADAM: (START OF CASSETTE NO 1B)

MR MACADAM: 1B

WITNESS:   We were trained to do guard duty and also taught as to what is guard duty, what is ... (inaudible) ... fire.  That is the place where you are posted and you are told you have to guard the area.  You have to concentrate on that particular area.  This is just - it was a general knowledge which will help anyone.  However, it wasn't emphasised on us.  What they emphasised with us was that we should be able to fight against the enemy and win and kill them.  About defending yourself, it's just something that was just fitted into the course or part of the

MR MACADAM: /course.

MR MACADAM: 1B course.  We were taught as to how you can draw a firearm quickly and to protect yourself.  Things like that.