Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: : They made some strong statements in there regarding the assault and death of Stompie Seipei, the assault on Mekgwe Mono, and Cebukhulu, the whole issue of the Football Club and its activities, and your allegations regarding them.
We also know about the statement issued by the ANC itself.  I'll read you a portion of a statement issued by the ANC.  The statement was made on the 18th of February, 1989.  (indistinct)  
Recently there have been serious concerns pertaining to the activities  of the group known as the Mandela Football Club which have raised great concern within the Mass Democratic Movement, and struggling people as a whole.   
 The ANC shared the concern of the people, and has at all times tried to intervene to find amicable solutions to the problem.  In the light of (indistinct) and activities in the recent past, our organisation complimenting our initiative or leading personnel to the Mass Democratic Movement, trying to use influence to bring about the (indistinct) of the group.
 Unfortunately our counsel was not heeded by Comrade Winnie Mandela.
The situation has been further complicated by the fact that she does not belong to any structures, and therefore did not benefit from the discipline counselling, and collectivity of the Mass Democratic Movement.  Under these circumstances we have ...(inaudible) committing mistakes which the enemy exploited, once that incident related to the so-called Mandela Football Club.  In the course of time, the Club engaged undercover activities which have angered the community.  We fully understand the anger of the people and their anger towards this club".
 So you've got the MDM making strong statements, you've got a strong message sent by the Mandela Crisis Committee, you've got the ANC itself issuing a statement which they reproduced in their official journal, and this is in February, 1989, after the Club was supposedly disbanded on the instructions of Mr Nelson Mandela in April 1987. 
I again ask this question - "Was there any basis for this strong feeling as displayed by such prominent people and institution, and an organisation, such as the ANC?"

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I gave  you my answer and that was my final answer.

UNKNOWN: : Your answer in the Section 29 Inquiry, was this was all set-up.  We now produce the people in person who made this statement, except the ANC statement,  but that was Mr Jaba.  What is your answer regarding the statement made by he Mandela Crisis Committee, and the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : It has not  changed my view at the time.  I certainly believed then, and that was my view, and I gave you my final answer.

UNKNOWN: : The one thing you told us, was that the ANC never contacted you regarding the disbanding or regarding the activities of the Football Club.  We've had Rev. Frank Chikane stating that he was personally phoned by President Oliver Tambo, because it was such an unusual occurrence at the time.  He remembered it very well where Mr Tambo informed him that he had telephoned you about the issue.  Do you still maintain that the ANC did not contact you on the issue of their activities of the Football Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Of course, no, that I had those details here, they wouldn't have come to me and said that they had communicated with Oliver Tambo at the time.  Even if he has, the ANC was underground, and this was in Lusaka, unless they had no idea how a structure underground, operated.

UNKNOWN: : If you recall Rev. Frank Chikane's evidence, he stated that Mr Tambo called him, informed him he has telephoned to raise his concerns about you, and specifically asked him to go and see you about the issue, and when he went to see you, he advised you that Mr Oliver Tambo had in fact informed him to raise it with you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was not correct.

UNKNOWN: : So what was in the Frank Chikane report was not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not say that it was not correct for him to have spoken to Oliver Tambo.  I said so (indistinct) to Tambo speaking to me.  That was not correct.

UNKNOWN: : So what you are saying from the people that were making allegations about you or statements about you, are we to (indistinct) that everyone else is in  fact lying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : So far, what I have told you were untrue.

UNKNOWN: : The one aspect that we need to raise, is all these people that you have called .........  I'm talking specifically about Mr Richardson, Miss Falati, Mr Morgan, these are people who were around you for considerable periods of time.  If they are of the kind of the calibre that you've described, you called them (indistinct) you've called them all sorts of things, why did you surround yourself with such people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : If I had known that they were such characters, surely I wouldn't have surrounded myself with them.    I do not know people in advance, what they are going to do in future.  At that time when I operated with them, I believed in them.

UNKNOWN: : My very last question is a question I've posed to you before, and I'll repeat it in view of all the evidence we've heard these last 8 days.
 We have read to you a number of cases where people associated with the Football Club have been sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.  We have heard evidence of people who at one stage were close to you, I'm talking about Mr Jerry Richardson, I'm talking about Miss Falati, I'm talking about Mr John Morgan. In retrospect, do you feel that there was a major problem regarding the behaviour of the young people and the behaviour of the people you surrounded yourself with?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I have not refuted the fact that there were problems around some of the youth, who were either at my place or operating from their homes.  I have conceded that there were problems.

UNKNOWN: You see the reason why I'm asking you this is, when I asked you the question under Section 29, I was hoping that we'd get more.  My question is in retrospect, and I'm quoting now from page 162 the second Section 29.
" Bearing in mind all the criminal cases these people were involved in, at this point in time, do you think that there was a major cause of concern regarding the behaviour of the people you've accommodated?" 
And your answer was:  I have no retrospective feelings whatsoever.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : In relation to the overall picture, what I meant was in fact, in (indistinct) if I had information I now have at my disposal, surely I would have acted differently.  If for instance Katiza was a police informer, and he had this information, he knew and he did not convey it to me, if it had been conveyed to me, I would have acted differently and most of the acts which took place by some of these boys have been operated away from my house.  I'm not responsible for the actions they undertook outside of my premises.

UNKNOWN: : Just very briefly.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : It was tragic that some of them were directly linked to the previous Football Club.

UNKNOWN: : Just briefly responding to that mention of Mr Sydney Mufamadi, he only mentioned that Mr Katiza had possibly been an informer, was in that report from the Mandela Crisis Committee to the President of the ANC, Mr Tambo and that document you've rejected.  I don't know if there's any other independent information regarding Mr Mufamadi's knowledge that Mr Katiza Cebekhulu was an informer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No , there was a statement by the ANC in Natal, confirming that Sydney held at the time.

UNKNOWN: : Is that the recent statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : There was a statement I saw from the ANC.