Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: The community knew about the fact that she had associated herself with Mbokodo, but the community didn't know what time of the day the Mbokodo members were coming to her house, but one would see Mbokodo's cars parked outside her house and if you were walking nearby, you would be chased away, not knowing who the people were who were chasing you.

ADV SANDI: I don't know, if I follow the evidence correctly here, you seem to be the only one who claims that the deceased had an association with the Mbokodo?  Why would the other applicants not mention such a thing, that the deceased had this association with the Mbokodo which was seen as a political enemy in that struggle?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I was her neighbour.

ADV SANDI: If the deceased had not made this confession that she was a witch, would she still have been killed?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No, she wasn't.

ADV SANDI: She was killed only because of the so-called confession that she made that she was a witch, is that what you are saying?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mahlangu whom she implicated, was that person known to you?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I first heard of Mahlangu Nkabinde and I couldn't understand why one person had two surnames.  I heard it for the first time that he was Mahlangu Nkabinde.

ADV SANDI: What did you know about the person concerned,t his Mahlangu?  Did you know if he was a person of any political association?  Did you know if he had any skill or expertise to use muti?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No, the first time I heard about Mahlangu is when she made the confession that Mahlangu gave her the muti to kill the parents of July and Speelman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  No further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.  Mr Skosana, I see on page 35 you say you were a supporter of the Intandwe Isizwe Party which was under the ANC.  Was Intandwe Isizwe Party active in your area?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, it was present.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 36, on paragraph, sub-paragraph 4, the second paragraph thereof you said
"... this was during the violence in the area that was opposing the previous government and Mbokodo"
	was the conflict between Intandwe Isizwe party on the one hand and Mbokodo on the other hand?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: There were conflicts between Mbokodo and Intandwe Isizwe and the ANC.

MR SIBANYONI: And then on page 38 you say you were a member of the Pieterskraal Civic Organisation which was an affiliate of SANCO, is that the information you gave to the person who was assisting you to complete the form?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Then on page 40 you say
"... the Civic Organisation instructed that the area of Pieterskraal had a problem of witchcraft and which had to be eradicated."
	At what stage did this Civic Organisation take such a decision, when was it?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: It started in 1988, that is when they started resolving the witchcraft problem, they instructed that the witches should leave the area.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 37 you mention Masoldier, who was Masoldier, what were his full names?  Page 37, paragraph 11(a)?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Masoldier is one of the accused in this case, but he has then deceased.

MR SIBANYONI: Who were the leaders of the Civic Organisation?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SIBANYONI: Who were the leaders of the Civic Organisation in your area?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Emma Sibego, the one that I know.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard, any re-examination?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Skosana, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicants?

MR RICHARD: That is the case for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena, any witnesses?

MR MOKOENA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard, have you got any submissions on the merits of these applications?

MR RICHARD: I will be brief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: I start by referring to Section 20 of the Act which compels an Amnesty Tribunal to grant amnesty if three things are satisfied.  The application complies with the requirements of this Act; the third one the applicants have made a full disclosure.  In this matter I think there is no dispute that both those aspects have been satisfied.
	The second one, (b),  ought to be read with paragraph, sorry Section 2(g) of the same Section which says -
"... any person who associated himself or herself with any act or admission committed for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) and (f) ..."
	When we look at the killing of Emma Mtsweni, I believe it has been established that on the basis that I have argued in the previous matter, she was bona fide and honestly perceived by the applicants to be an opponent of the ANC and that her killing would achieve the political objective of furthering the ANC's objectives and ideals.
	We have five witnesses who gave coherent evidence to the fact that she was identified as a witch or moloi, we have it before us that if a person is pointed out to be a witch or a moloi, there is very little that that individual can do about it.  The perception then by the applicants was that for that reason and that reason alone, she was seen to be the equivalent of an impimpi and I could argue further as I did last night, a Security Force personnel, an apartheid counsellor and therefore within the framework she became a legitimate objective of an attack as contemplated by this Act.
	For those reasons I believe and submit that subsection (1)(b) of Section 20 has also been complied with.  The only potential exception to my argument might be the first person, the first applicant to give evidence today.
	There he has said that whether or not the youth of the area, the comrades had become involved, he might have done an act.  However, I believe his evidence needs to be seen in the context of that particular time.  As the last applicant has said, there was perceived to be a witchcraft problem in that area which is corroborated by the various reports that we had reference to.  It was perceived that the killing of witches would achieve both the subjective and political objective and when I refer to subsection (g) of subsection 20(2), I have no difficulty in making the submission that the first applicant was a person who associated himself with the acts which fall within the definition of (2)(a) and as read with 20(1)(b).
	I can argue at length, but I believe that in view of the time, I should make the offer that I made yesterday, if the Committee would like it, I would prepare written Heads with pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should just have your say now.  Your clients are in custody, we don't have the luxury of Heads or argument in these matters any more, unless it is really compelling.

MR RICHARD: I believe that the argument that I have outlined is in summary that the killing of Emma Mtsweni was an act committed with a political purpose, by persons who associated themselves with the aims and objectives of the ANC at the time, they have made a full disclosure of all relevant facts and they have complied with the requirements of the Act of Parliament and in the circumstances, are entitled to an amnesty for the murder of Emma Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: No submission Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga?