Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  But in any event your intention was to explode this bomb near the rugby stadium where many people were watching the game in such a manner that they would be effected in what ever degree to approach the Government or approach whatever political party belonged to, to do something about the situation in the country, is that correct?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you accept now today that you, apart from selecting this quiet street on the Friday, you took no steps to prevent any other person being injured or killed by this bomb exploding as it did on the Saturday?

AGGIE SHOKE: The person who assembled the bomb is the relevant person to answer that question, I know nothing about bombs.

ADV PRIOR: But you knew that when bombs explode people can be killed, especially bombs placed in the street or near buildings, is that right?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes you are right.

ADV PRIOR: Before you planted this Ellis Park bomb there had been other bombings that M.K. had done, is that correct?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: You knew about those bomb blasts, is that right?

AGGIE SHOKE: No.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke, did you say you went to - you drove to Hillbrow and waited at Checkers.  Are you able to tell the Committee how long you waited before Mr Dumakude and Mr Matshididi arrived?

AGGIE SHOKE: I did not wait a long time before they arrived, it was just a short time.  When they were close enough we heard a sound and we got into the car and drove off.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell the Committee how far you drove away from the Ellis Park Stadium, in other words how far that stadium was from where you parked at Hillbrow?

AGGIE SHOKE: I did not even reach the stadium, when they turned right I turned left towards Hillbrow.

ADV PRIOR: Would one have to travel more than five minutes by car or are you unable to tell us?  I just need to try and get a sense of how long it was from the time that they put the bomb there until it went off, I'm trying to establish that.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be possible to obtain the distance Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My feeling which is vague is that it's quite a long way for - to walk?

MR LANDMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, what I'll do is I'll drive that distance at night and hopefully I'll get out of Hillbrow.

CHAIRPERSON: If it's not too much trouble for you if it's approximately in your way we would be obliged.  Thank you Mr Landman.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.
	Were you aware at any stage that the ANC after the Ellis Park bomb was not claiming responsibility for that and I tell you on what I based that.  There was a report in a press statement that at a meeting at Harare after the Ellis Park bomb, it was a delegation of various politicians and businessmen and I understand Mr Louis Luyt or Dr Louis Luyt was also part of that delegation and the ANC had indicated there that they were unaware who had done that and because of that they couldn't claim responsibility?

CHAIRPERSON: They couldn't claim responsibility not that they were in any way condemning the attack.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, the impact of my question or the purport of it is that at time it seems from the press clipping and obviously one must be careful but just for his comment, it seems that the ANC were unaware at that time of who had carried out that attack.  Are you able to comment?

AGGIE SHOKE: The most relevant person to answer to that question is Dumakude who was the commander of the unit.

ADV PRIOR: I just get a sense from your evidence that your participation was just purely perfunctory, you could quite easily have stayed at home?  The fact that you drove the vehicle - Dube could have driven the vehicle.  Is that correct?

AGGIE SHOKE: Dube cannot drive.

ADV PRIOR: Oh I see.  The unit that you referred to was a four man unit, is that right?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And when operations were carried out on orders did the unit normally perform those or carry out those orders as a unit and not as individuals?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke, is there anything you wish to say to the victims who are present today?

AGGIE SHOKE: I want to say to them I am sorry, it was not our intention to kill people or to injure anyone.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, just for the record I have a statement of a Mrs Mary Magdalene Bothma who at the time was residing at No. 3a Upper Meyer Street, Doornfontein.  So there may well have been, and at this stage we do not want to make an issue of it but there may well have been derelict houses but certainly from the statement that I have it's a damage bundle which hasn't been put before the Committee because of it's volume and I'll make that statement available for whatever worth it is, that she certainly was resident at No. 3a.  So there may well have been derelict houses but certainly it seems one or two may have been occupied although she ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The photograph you showed us, the house 43, does not look to be derelict.  It's got a roof on it and what have you, the house behind the blown up car.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I'll certainly make enquiries.

CHAIRPERSON: Well when we see the proper coloured photographs tomorrow, it might be possible to ascertain from them without the necessity of - because these photographs, it's very difficult to make any clear conclusion.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR LANDMAN: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MR LANDMAN

ADV PRIOR: I just want to ascertain from the victims if they wanted?  - thank you Mr Chairman, there's no questions from them.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Shoke did you receive any military training?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Where?

AGGIE SHOKE: In Botswana.

DR TSOTSI: What kind of military training was it?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was a crash course.

DR TSOTSI: A crash course.  Did you use explosives in that crash course?

AGGIE SHOKE: No we did not use explosives.

DR TSOTSI: This unit that you refer to, by whom was it formed, your unit, by whom was it formed and when?

AGGIE SHOKE: The unit was formed by Dumakude.

DR TSOTSI: Where?

AGGIE SHOKE: In the country, inside South Africa.

DR TSOTSI: And did Dumakude not go abroad ...[inaudible] or for training?

AGGIE SHOKE: He went for training.

DR TSOTSI: At what stage did he form the unit?

AGGIE SHOKE: When he came back to the country.

DR TSOTSI: So he formed the unit here in South Africa after he returned from military training?

AGGIE SHOKE: He came in and go, came in and go.

DR TSOTSI: Did he have the authority to form a unit?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes, he was the commander.

DR TSOTSI: He was a commander but he had the authority to form a unit, is that right?

AGGIE SHOKE: He had the authority.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say that you did not yourself participate in the laying of the bomb, you did not participate when the bomb was placed?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

DR TSOTSI: I'd like to refer you to your statement on page 2 of the - right at the bottom there - car bomb at Ellis Park.  The second line where you say the car containing the explosives was placed near the gates of Ellis Park and the timing device was set.  Did you make that statement from your own knowledge?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Yes and how do you know where the car was - where the car containing the explosives was placed if you did not in fact attend the scene?

AGGIE SHOKE: When they assembled the bomb I was with them.

DR TSOTSI: Where did they assemble the bomb?

AGGIE SHOKE: We were at Zone 5, Diepkloof.

DR TSOTSI: Yes but I want to know about the place near the gates of Ellis Park, were you present when the car containing the bomb was stationed near Ellis Park?

AGGIE SHOKE: When the placed the car, I was not with them.  I drove to Hillbrow to wait for them.