Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

UNKNOWN: Weren't you worried?  They come and tell you "PW is leaving, FW de Klerk is coming in, for this reason we're stopping all projects, however you go ahead with this Omar project", didn't you find that a rather worrying suggestion?

MR VAN ZYL: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: But as I understand your evidence up to now, is that when I asked you about why it is that you thought that you had indemnity as such, was that the people in high places would look after you, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Implying that the regime as it was currently constituted, then under PW Botha, was aware of the kind of activities that you would be engaged in and that people up on top would look after you if you got into trouble.

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now you're being told "Something's changed, Botha's gone, de Klerk's in.  For this reason we must stop all projects."  But you go off and continue with this assassination plot.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: You weren't worried at all.

MR VAN ZYL: No, I was just following instructions.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me?

MR VAN ZYL: I was just following instructions.

UNKNOWN: Did you ask questions?

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you ask why they're going to be no further projects?

MR VAN ZYL: No, I've just explained to you, because it was said to me that the next State President did not know, or wasn't informed about the existence of the CCB, then I went on leave and then we came back and then there was another period of months that had lapsed where we had to inactive, because they told us that the President had not yet been informed and as a result thereof we were still inactive.  So there had been discussions afterwards, at the end of September, the beginning of October.

UNKNOWN: Now we know that on your version after the powder was handed over to Peaches, you allowed him to attempt to sprinkle this powder for approximately a week and then you phoned him and you told him the project's abandoned, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct, that is so.

UNKNOWN: This in circumstances where for months and months you'd been trying to shoot Adv Omar and you'd given several months for that plan to either come to fruition or not, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: You go to all this trouble to get this powder manufactured from a chemical laboratory and after a week you pull the plug.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: Why did you give it such a short time before abandoning the project?

MR VAN ZYL: I think myself and the Regional Manager were quite frustrated at that stage because the project could not be executed.  At that stage I was on leave and I contacted my Regional Manager and I told him that we do not have the capability to execute this project and then I received an instruction from him to tell Peaches that he would have to destroy the weapon and the powder and stop the project.  It was a decision we made.

UNKNOWN: I know it's a decision that you took, but the fact that you, on your version, terminated the project after only approximately a week, did this have something to do with the political changes that were taking place?

MR VAN ZYL: No, it possibly played a role, possibly not, but it was just a decision that we had made.

UNKNOWN: So you thought ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: What you are insinuating in this case is that I possibly would have acted illegally by giving him the pills because a new President had already been elected, that is not so.

UNKNOWN: I'm not insinuating that, I believe everything that you were doing all along was unlawful, so it makes no difference.  Now you thought that a week was a reasonable time for Peaches to gain access to the Omar household - how was he going to get close enough to Adv Omar's food, to sprinkle this powder?

MR VAN ZYL: I have already testified that according to him he would have known someone who allegedly worked in the house of Omar or was resident in the house, I can't remember.

UNKNOWN: And did he report back to you from time to time, about how the project was going on?

MR VAN ZYL: I had telephonic contact with him and I do not think any detail was discussed, it was just a matter of the project has not been completed yet, so I would have kept in contact with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there instructions regarding the powder, like the amount to be used, how to place it on the food, was it to be cooked in, was it to be in liquid, or ... anything like that, instructions on how to use the powder.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, they told me that it was a powder, I cannot even tell you how many grams of it there was but there wasn't much of it and it had just to be simply, on one occasion, be sprinkled on top of his food, and that was the instruction and that is exactly how I conveyed it to Peaches.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, this R10 000 that you gave back, that R10 000 was money that you had been given for, for what purpose?

MR VAN ZYL: The R10 000 was part of an original R15 000 which I received on the Omar project, of which R5 000 was paid to Peaches and of which he would have given R2 500 to each of the persons whom he recruited to shoot Omar.

UNKNOWN: So that money was money that was going to be used on the Omar project for, amongst other things, to pay Peaches, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: So if Peaches was going to succeed in killing Omar, then you were going to have to have money to pay him.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: But why are you then giving the money back?

MR VAN ZYL: On instructions.  I would have obtained it again.

UNKNOWN: Before also the plan was that Peaches would use two other people so that there would be "'n afsny punt", now the plan is to use Peaches himself, why?

MR VAN ZYL: It was the proposal that was made and it was approved as such.  I do not find that strange.

UNKNOWN: Now you go back to Johannesburg on the same day and you meet with Kalla Botha and Nick, what is Kalla Botha doing at this meeting?

MR VAN ZYL: If I recall correctly, Kalla also had to return funds and Kalla was the person - at that stage he was in Johannesburg, and he picked me up from the airport and transported me to the hotel where I saw Nick.

UNKNOWN: Now was he present when the white powder was handed over by Nick?

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I accept that he was in the room, I accept that.  I cannot recall it, but I do know that Kalla will allege that he was involved, because he testified to that effect in the Basson trial.

UNKNOWN: So if he says he knew about the plan to eliminate Omar, is that correct?  Would Botha have known about the plan to eliminate Omar?

MR VAN ZYL: I don't know, what I do know is that he testified that he had knowledge of the powder, so to which extent he was familiar with the project I cannot say, I didn't discuss it with him.  I think you should ask him that.

UNKNOWN: I want to know what your version is because either he was in the room when the powder was being handed over or he wasn't.  If he was in the room, he may well know about the project, he may well have known about the project, if he wasn't in the room, well maybe he doesn't know about the project.  What do you have to say?

MR VAN ZYL: I am saying as far as I know, I heard now that Kalla testified in the Wouter Basson matter that he was present when I received the powder from Nick and that he confirmed my version and insofar as his extent of testimony, I cannot comment on that because I didn't discuss it with him.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear his evidence at the Wouter Basson case?

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: Then how do you know that's what he
said?

MR VAN ZYL: I spoke to Adv Torrie Pretorius, he contacted me.

CHAIRPERSON: But he was present in the room when it was handed over?  Can you remember that as you sit here today?