Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wouldn't not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before you went to Caprivi or after you went to Caprivi that your father turned his back on Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That was after.

MR HEWIT: But it was some years before you turned your back on Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Did your father tell you at the time that he was disenchanted with Inkatha when he became disenchanted with Inkatha a couple of years before you did?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Did he try and persuade you to also leave Inkatha and to go to the ANC or UDF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Did he succeed in that, or did he fail?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, he did not succeed.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Please now turn to page 216 of your affidavit.   Do you have that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: At the top of page 216 you say this.  In 1980 or 1981 I accompanied my father to Lesotho where we met Chris Hani, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now, at that stage you were in Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, the two of us.

MR HEWIT: At that stage, in 1980 or 1981 when you went with your father to meet Chris Hani in Lesotho, had your father then become disenchanted with Inkatha or was he still in Inkatha or was he now with the ANC?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He was still in Inkatha.

MR HEWIT: Still Inkatha then, at that stage?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Right you then carry on and say, the reason for this visit was to discuss and implement plans for the recruitment of members for MK.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: My father and I was secretly involved in this planning and actively recruited members for MK, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct, yes.

MR HEWIT: Later when I became actively involved with Inkatha, I stopped.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: But my father continued with the recruitment for MK?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Then in paragraph 4.4 you say, I went to see Chris Hani and Lambert Moloi in Lesotho on three or four occasions?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: The purpose of these meetings were to pass on information concerning policy decisions of Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Inkatha was not aware of these meetings?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Well, were other members of Inkatha not liaising with the ANC at that stage?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would not know.

MR HEWIT: You were never asked by Inkatha to tell the ANC about their policy decisions?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Is there any particular reason why - let me put it this way, did you tell any other Inkatha members or supporters at that time, that you were having these meetings in Lesotho?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me explain this to you.  When we went to the places to which you have just referred, it was not easy.  There was even no need for me to inform another Inkatha member because the people that we were going to speak to were dangerous to your government and because of that, I would not have at the time of my working underground, told somebody else that I am here in Inkatha, but there is also something else that I am involved in.
	The instruction that I received was that I was supposed to give them what information I could, because they wanted to know better about Inkatha.

MR HEWIT: So, were you spying on Inkatha for the ANC?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I have just explained that I would not have told anyone and therefore there was no spying in the IFP.  The IFP was a legal organisation  accepted, and therefore I could not have spied, but if an organisation wanted to know if I were in a better position, so that they could get that better information, they indeed wanted me to send them those documents.
	That is not spying.

MR HEWIT: So did you actually send Inkatha documents to the ANC at this stage?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Nobody from Inkatha knew about that?  And nobody from Inkatha knew about that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me tell you.  The President Mangosuthu Buthelezi, I was on my way to Swaziland.  I was asked by comrade Gideon Mlege from eSikhawini that the comrades in Swaziland wanted to see me.  I told him and he personally agreed because there was no secret.
	And therefore there was no spying in the IFP.

MR HEWIT: Okay.  Were you paid at all by the ANC for giving them these documents?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The ANC let me just explain something to you about the ANC.  When you join the ANC, you volunteer, you dedicate yourself.
	They don't do what the Special Branch does, like torturing.  They were pleading with you at the same time and if it was indicated that volunteers were needed, a volunteer is a person who dedicate himself, volitionally without any gain, that is how the ANC is.
	It doesn't use electric shocks.

CHAIRPERSON: The question, I take it the answer is no, you weren't paid?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I think you now have understood that I did not get any remuneration.

MR HEWIT: Yes, well you took a long time to say so.
	Turn to page 230 please, typed page 21, do you have that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: There you say although I was apparently on the Planning Committee, I only attended that one meeting.  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: I think that I  was not included thereafter because I grumbled about the involvement of the SADF to M.Z. Khumalo.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: After the meeting M.Z. Khumalo and I travelled back to Ulundi together?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: During which time we had an argument about the involvement of the SADF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So according to you there, at a very early stage, you were objecting to certain policies of the Inkatha Freedom Party in dealing with the SADF, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: That is why you ever attended the one meeting, you never attended another meeting after that.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, please turn to page 231, in particular to paragraph 7.6.
	I have some difficulty with this paragraph, this is why I am going to ask you to explain it, I will read it to you.
	The person to whom I was to report, and from whom I was given instructions, was M.Z. Khumalo.  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: He in turn reported to the Committee, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: I was given the responsibility of organising any operations to kill people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: The leadership on the ground in any particular area, would be involved in deciding who had to be killed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: But I would put the operation into effect?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So what are you actually saying there?  Are you saying that people who were not part of the Planning Committee, actually decided, that is people on the ground, actually decided who had to be killed?  Because that is as I read that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I thought you had finished, so that you could give me a chance to answer you.

MR HEWIT: Right, well please explain my - try and assist me with my confusion there.