bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair.  Honourable Chair, this is an application  of course in terms of Section 18 of the Reconciliations Act, 34 of 1995.
	I just want to read Honourable Chair, Section 20 of the Act in question, I don't know whether it is necessary for that.

CHAIRPERSON: We are quite aware of the Chapter.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much, I also don't want to waste the time of this Honourable Panel.  In brief Honourable Chair, what needs to be proved, or what the applicants need to show in the application ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way to you, I think we are all in agreement that there is no question that it was a politically motivated matter.
	As I understand the opposition to the application, it centres around whether full disclosure was made or not.  Perhaps it would be better for you to deal with that section.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair, thank you very much, then I will just deal with the second leg, the requirement that there should be some full disclosure.
	It is our submission sir, with respect, that there has been in fact some full disclosure.  I want to mention Honourable Chair that when we met with my learned counsel in the morning, we wanted to know from him, our areas of difference herein, and he indicated to us that they were not convinced that what has been contained in the statement by Nyembezi, was in fact the true facts of the events of that day.
	Now, we wanted him to come with his own version, then what is your own version then if you are saying that our evidence is not true, and they couldn't come up with any.
	The point we want to make Your Honour, is that in so far as we are concerned, Honourable Chair, we have disclosed all that occurred on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way.  There exists the issue of improbabilities also.  I am not saying that that is appropriate here, but it doesn't mean if your opposition can't provide a version, that whatever the applicant says, is the truth.  If he said the king fell off the moon, we know that that doesn't happen.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair.  Honourable Chair, we are saying that we have disclosed all the relevant facts in so far as this application is concerned.
	We had in fact disclosed all the facts.  Yes, Honourable Chair, I would agree that there were some problems in so far as the evidence of Nyembezi was concerned.  More especially about the question of the surveillance, but that was the only position where Nyembezi could not really come clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Referring to the days and when the surveillance took place?
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

MR BERGER: I take it Mr Khanyile, that the answer to my question is: yes, you cannot say where you were on Sunday the 14th of June 1992, am I correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: If I knew Mr Berger, I would have told you.

MR BERGER: I take that as a: "yes", and I put it to you that the reason that you do not want to admit that you were in this meeting of the 14th of June 1992 is because you know very well that the attack was discussed at that meeting and you want to protect Mr Themba Xhosa, isn't that correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Mr Berger, we were told that we are here to speak the truth but I can see that you are pulling me to a side where I have to lie and this is something that I'm not going to do.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this would be an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now for the day.  We will resume tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, we have canvassed this thing backwards and forwards.  You have his evidence already on record, if he is going to change it, well, so be it, but let's not waste time on it.
	I agree with you that he very distinctly said he didn't understand why it took a week for them to carry out the operation, he wasn't involved in the planning.  That was his evidence, let's move on.

MR BERGER: I will Mr Lax, thank you.  Was there not another meeting on Sunday the 14th of June where the attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: This was a meeting addressed by Mr Themba Khosa?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know anything about that.  Where Themba Khosa was addressing people about the attack planned at Boipatong, I don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this will be an appropriate point to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you said that when you returned from your room you saw 4, 6, maybe more, but less than 10 AK47's on the ground in the stadium, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it possible that there were many more AK47's on the ground in the hostel, other weapons such as shotguns, home-made weapons, on the ground which had been taken by some of the residents before you returned to the stadium?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I never saw anyone fetching any guns, and I have no knowledge in as far as that is concerned.

MR BERGER: No what I'm asking you, is it possible that before you returned to the stadium, there had been other AK4's and other guns on the ground which had been taken by some of the residents, or are you saying that amongst the 300 or 400 attackers there were only 4 to 6 AK47's and no other guns such as shotguns?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It's not possible for me to say exactly anything in relation to guns because, but I'm saying that I did see people in Boipatong or towards Boipatong having in their possessions small guns.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Berger wants to find out is that, because according to your evidence you went to fetch your stick, but when you returned to the stadium, there were AK47's, and you could not get one because they got finished.  What Mr Berger is trying to find out, is it possible that there were many firearms there, but that by the time you returned there were only these 4 or 6 that were there?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MS CAMBANIS: You mentioned that you grew up in Boipatong, what was your address there, what was your home address?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: 1772 Sabata Street.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Tshabangu, you may return to your seat.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

JACK MBELE: I never heard anyone thereafter about the sexual assault of women, or even the rape of women.

MR BERGER: How did you enter Boipatong, which street did you go along?

JACK MBELE: I do not know Boipatong well, there is a tarred road in one of the streets, that is the only street that has tar.  We used the last street towards the right.

MR BERGER: At that time you were in Damarra Chonco's group, is that right?

JACK MBELE: We were still together.

MR BERGER: When did you divide up into groups and where was that?

JACK MBELE: When we saw the Self Defence Units that is at the tar road inside the township.  There is a gravel street that crosses that tarred road, that is where the group split in two.

MR BERGER: This splitting into two, was it spontaneous or was it pre-arranged?

JACK MBELE: According to what I realised on that day, it was a spontaneous thing.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I intend traversing fairly quickly what this witness did in Boipatong, but I don't know if that's going to take longer than I anticipate and I see that it's already past 5 o'clock.  I don't know if you want to adjourn at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient point to interrupt a cross-examination?

MR BERGER: Yes it would.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you referred to the evidence of Mr Maloi and the trial relating to what Sonny said he had done.  What is the page - do you have a page reference for that?

MR BERGER: Chairperson the reference I have is at page 309 of bundle 2 of the papers before you.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the extract from the judgment?

MR BERGER: That is correct.  At page 3757 of the judgment, dealing with accused no 65, who is Mr Mkwanazi, the learned judge deals with the evidence of Mr Maloi and speaks about the rape there.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  At this point we will adjourn for the day.  We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 09h00.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

JACK MBELE: Not Sonny raped a person, Maloi gave evidence in court that he saw Lucky raping a person.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, that's what I mean and you said that you did not hear such a thing?

JACK MBELE: It was my first time to hear that from Maloi during his time of giving evidence in court.

ADV SIGODI: Yes and then later on you said that what you could remember was that Khosi said that he saw Lucky raping, do you remember that?

JACK MBELE: Maybe I made a mistake there, I wanted to refer to Khobi, you see there is Khobi and Khosi, maybe I wanted to say Khobi, these two names confuse me, Khobi Khosi, they sound much alike.  I was referring to Khobi, he is Khobi Maloi.

ADV SIGODI: That has been clarified.  So you did not hear from Khosi, you heard from Khobi?

JACK MBELE: No, I didn't hear Khosi saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

ADV SIBANYONI: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your standard of education?

JACK MBELE: Standard 7.

CHAIRPERSON: When you returned from Boipatong how many bullets did you have?

JACK MBELE: I don't want to lie my lord, I think I was left with only four bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: This person who has been referred to as Lucky, this is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

JACK MBELE: That is correct, my lord.

CHAIRPERSON: How many names did this individual have?

JACK MBELE: He had many names, many.  The called him Stikinauw, the other name was Sekwala, the other name was Khlotsi Khlotsi, others used to call him Manani.  Those are his names.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the name that was by which he was commonly called?

JACK MBELE: That is Stikenauw.

MR LAX: Mr Mbele, I just want to just pick up on the question of Khosi and Khobi.  Remember yesterday I didn't hear very clearly and I asked you to repeat what the name of the person was because I thought you said Vosi and you corrected me and you said Khosi, do you remember that?

JACK MBELE: I remember that, my lord.

MR LAX: Did you only realise you made a mistake today?

JACK MBELE: Sir I had a problem yesterday, I did not feel very well.  I would say I was quite nervous and when he told me that I had no choice I had to come and witness, I followed.  I didn't want to argue with him but the person I was referring to was Khobi.

MR LAX: Thank you.  This chap Bajosi, did you have any problems with him?

JACK MBELE: We were in good terms with Bajosi.

MR LAX: And Mr Maloi?

JACK MBELE: Khobi was very silly.  When he was drunk people assaulted him.  We were not in good terms with him.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the constraints of time we are not in a position - I beg your pardon, you may return to your seat Mr Mbele.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the constraints of time we are unable to hear the evidence of the remaining applicants.  We will hear their evidence when we'll resume next.  The date for the next sitting of this Committee will be announced in due course, therefore rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman, the situation is that his application was made together with all the other applicants.  When a fax was sent from my instructing attorney's office with 36 pages, including that 36 pages, the application of Kubeka.  The other application we're talking about is the one we can't find so I'm not relying on that application, the application I'm relying upon is the one that was sent like all the other applicants applications.

CHAIRPERSON: The original applications.

MR STRYDOM: The original applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what Mr Berger is looking for isn't it?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, that's that half baked application.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: And I don't take that any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was subsequently supplemented, is that what you're saying?  Just like the rest of the other - or just like some of the applicants did.

MR STRYDOM: Yes that's indeed so, very late in the day but it was supplemented.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay now where is that?

MR STRYDOM: That's the documents I handed up on the previous occasion, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So is there an issue still?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Very well we will start - there was a suggestion that we start at 9 o'clock and I decided that we - we decided that we should start at half past 9.  We will go back to that 9 o'clock.  I take it that that offer still stands?  We will rise now, we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I said so, but when I went into that house, there were people.  I said there were people in the second house and I shot at them.  I do not know whether children were present there.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but what he is asking you is why did you say in your evidence in chief that you went into the second house, you killed women and children when you now tell is that you don't know whether there were children or whether there adults in the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I did kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what he wants you to explain?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: He just wants you to explain why do you tell us now that you do not know whether you killed adults or children in the second house, whereas earlier on you had told us in your evidence in chief, that in the second house you killed women and children?  Do you have any explanation for that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I understand you.  It is possible that I could have killed the woman because there were men and women in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that question?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You say I give evidence to the effect that I killed women and children in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel says that when you gave your evidence in chief, you said you went into the second house and shot at women and children, but as he asks you a question now as to whether you remember who you killed in that house, you say you do not remember whether there were women or children.  Do you see the difference?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to know is why do you give these two versions, two different versions?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It may be that I am forgetful.  Ever since I have been assaulted by the Police, I have this problem of being forgetful.  Also it is possible that I did kill the adults and children in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you've got a memory problem because you had been assaulted by the Police?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: After the assaults I suffered at the hands of the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: With your memory?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I have a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: With your memory?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you are moving to the other aspect, let us know so that we can take an adjournment.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I want to move now to the third house, so this will be an appropriate stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will adjourn and resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Okay, we will address your application tomorrow morning, I see you have given us short Heads.  Yes, very well, okay.  Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: I am sorry Chairperson, I missed the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is the applicant's case.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I also understood that Mr Peens, Mr Chaka and Rooikop had been subpoenaed to give evidence, are they not going to be giving evidence before the victims give their evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR BERGER: Well, then the victims will start leading evidence as soon as Mr Lowies has finished his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.  We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, can I just add something, there is a possibility of one other witness.  I have to take instructions, it is a very short witness, if we are going to call him, we will have him ready tomorrow, it is in connection with this Ulundi hearings.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that going to be Mr Duma?

MR STRYDOM: No, it is another witness, I have just been instructed, I think his surname is Twala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Okay.

MR DU PLESSIS: Chair, with your permission may I enquire which ...

CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit doesn't say anything about the minutes.

MR STRYDOM: It doesn't state anything about the minutes, it is just stated that it is an open conference for anybody to attend and that is the purpose of this affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: It says
"... I cannot recall any participation by Andries Nosenga ..."

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is what this person said.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the value of this affidavit?

MR STRYDOM: The reason why this affidavit was handed up is to show that it is open to any person, I will argue later on the basis that if any person of the public can attend this hearing, one would not have expected congratulations about an incident that took, an incident like Boipatong, that took place.  That is the value of this.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard from the people who were there, I think what we were eagerly waiting for, are the minutes and someone to you know, to prove the minutes.  Because you will understand that once they were handed in, but there has been an objection, it is a document so far, which purports to be the minutes, so once there is an issue, then it is incumbent upon the applicant to prove those  minutes, you do understand that?  Mr Berger, that is the position of the victims, is that right?

MR BERGER: that is correct Chairperson, and also as far as this affidavit is concerned, if it is intended to prove the truth of the contents, we object to that as well.

MR STRYDOM: I take the point, we will see what we can do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: We will inform you tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow morning at nine o'clock, we will start with the application.  Mr Mapoma, have you received the copy of the short Heads?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have received the copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, has your team received this?

MR BERGER: We have Chairperson, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, all right, tomorrow morning nine o'clock, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MR STRYDOM: Chairman, I'm sorry to raise this, but I was requested by my clients to raise it.  Exactly this time yesterday, when I stopped cross-examining - and this is leading to trouble between the different parties, there's laughter at what is perceived to be, either myself or my clients representing them, as just happened now.  This with respect - and this is a problem and I'm highlighting it, to me it's not a problem, but to my clients it's a problem, the perception is created again that when doing so they are intimidated and they perceive it as an insult to them and their legal representatives and I think it's appropriate that I raise it now while this incident is fresh in your memory, because that was actually, as I understood it, that sparked off something yesterday, which we have discussed this morning.  I must apologise that I had to mention it, but it's unfortunately one of those things I was requested to do.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you're mentioning?

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, I missed your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I didn't get what your ...

MR STRYDOM: The reason was that my clients specifically stated that it's this laughter that happens that they perceive as something which is against them and their legal representatives.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  My colleagues have observed since these proceedings started, that there has always been laughter in the audience, either coming from the applicants' side or coming from the victims' side.  We have not interfered with that, we have allowed that because it has not disturbed these proceedings in any manner.  I will therefore ask both sides, because insofar as we are concerned, our observation has been that both sides on different occasions have laughed, either to themselves or to the other side.  If this laughter is creating a problem, perhaps the rules must be changed.
	I have mentioned at the beginning of this hearing today that there shouldn't be any abuse at either side and I continue to do so, to urge both parties to do so.  Even though we're dealing with quite a serious matter here, on some occasions things have happened at these hearings which has caused one or other person to laugh at.  We have not regarded that as being unbecoming because it is only natural that if something happens which causes one to laugh, it is so, but if that is intended to be an abuse, I think it must stop.  In the form of what must stop is the abuse, that's all that must stop.  Very well.
	It seems to me that we are not going to be able to finish this witness now.  We will adjourn and resume with his evidence tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  
	Mr Rahantlhane, we are unable to finish your evidence today.  You are required to attend these proceedings tomorrow morning.  Yes, very well.   Okay, we will rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-17

MR LOWIES: I'd appreciate it Chairman because I have a problem with the witness that I want to consult with but again I'm in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we are in your hands.  If you finish early, if you don't finish, we don't go.  Alright but I think it's been a fairly long day.  Okay very well, we will adjourn at this stage.  You will reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
	Ms Molete, would you make sure that you are here by 9 o'clock tomorrow morning?

MIRIAM MOLETE: I will be here Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just before the adjournment, I indicated to you Chairman that tomorrow I have a problem, I'll see if I can come during the course of the day but there will be - Mr Fredrech will be here for me.  Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else will be absent tomorrow?
No one?  Very well.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR MALINDI: About this caucus meeting, you say your view was that the Boipatong residents must be beaten up if I am interpreting the Zulu word you used, "shaya" correctly.  Is that what you understood should be done to the residents of Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MALINDI: You did not envisage that they should be killed?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: We are talking about killing a person here during an attack.

MR MALINDI: If that is what you envisaged, why didn't you use the word that they should have been killed specifically?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: In Zulu when we say a person is being beaten up, it is understood that they should be killed.  I had explained in Zulu and everybody who speaks the language, would understand it very well.

MR MALINDI: I will not take it any further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon Ma'am, sorry, I beg your pardon.   Sometimes you are marginalised.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Oh very well.  Thank you Mr Buthelezi, you may step down, but before you do, is there anything, did you want to say something?  Do you want to say something?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, before you step down, who is your next witness Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next witness is number 5 on the list, Timothy Stals Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: We may still have to have a short adjournment.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, like the other applicants, the evidence in chief, won't take long.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a break until quarter past four, and when we come back, we will hear Mazibuko.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you were asked at length as to what complaint did you have and it turned out to be, all that happened is that you feared that your family might be attacked.  So rather than telling us about this complaint, why didn't you just tell us that all there was is that you feared?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well I said that, that when I arrived at KwaMadala hostel I was always worried about my parents.  That is what I said before.

CHAIRPERSON: The television set that you picked up, you were going to put that in your room.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: During the course of that evening did you hit any human being?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not hit any human being.

CHAIRPERSON: But in the houses that you went to, did any of the occupants perhaps come out running?

MR MAZIBUKO: Most of the people who came out of the houses, who were running out, were women and I did not intend to hit women.  But if I saw somebody, a man of my age, I would make sure  that when I leave him he is cold.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't come across any man, did you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Is there anything arising from the questions?

UNKNOWN: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PRETORIUS: I have none.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY R DA SILVA

MR MAPOMA: No questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR BERGER: Nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR MALINDI: Nothing further, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mazibuko, you may stand down.
Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: When I saw it for the first time it had not yet arrived at the robots, it was approaching the robots.  On arrival at the robots it made a turn towards the Cape Gate firms.

MR DA SILVA: And when you saw it the first time, can you estimate how far it was from the robots?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I am not in the position to, but it was quite a distance.

MR DA SILVA: Would you say further than the length of this hall or are you not able to say?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No, it was a distance, it was quite a distance away.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a person at the hostel by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No, I don't know him.

MS TANZER: You have been sitting in these proceedings and listening to the evidence and to the statements that Mr Nosenga has made regarding the night of the 17th and events that led up to the attack.  Insofar as your version differs from Mr Nosenga's, and that is relating to the police presence at Boipatong and their assistance in the attack, what are your comments?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I don't know that, I just know that we conducted the attack ourselves.

MS TANZER: Is it possible that there could have been police present at Boipatong that night?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No.

MS TANZER: Did you attend any meetings prior to the attack being launched?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Will this be an appropriate time to adjourn?  Very well, shall we commence tomorrow morning at about 9 o'clock?  Are there any objections to that or is that too late?  Yes, very well, we will reconvene tomorrow at 9 o'clock.
	Mr Mbatha, we cannot finish your evidence today, you will have to come back tomorrow morning at about 9 o'clock.  Would you make sure that you are here by 9 o'clock?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: You're telling us what you saw?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: Prior to the Boipatong attack, did you know, whether directly or indirectly, any policeman policing the area or the area of the hostel?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: The question is, did he know any per..., was he aware, did he know of any policeman that were in the Vaal Triangle around the area of the hostel, did he know them by name, either directly or indirectly?

CHAIRPERSON: I still don't understand the question.

MS TANZER: I think the question's quite simple, did he know any policemen, whether directly or indirectly, more specifically indirectly, did he know of policemen that were policing the Vaal Triangle prior to the attack?

MR LAX: Are you trying to say did he know any of the policemen that may have been involved in policing the Vaal Triangle area in the vicinity of the hostel before the attack?

MS TANZER: Yes, that is my question.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I knew no police who were policing the vicinity of the hostel.

MS TANZER: Now when you said on the day after the attack Themba Khosa addressed the residents of the hostel, and he was accompanied by policemen... (intervention).

MR LAX: No, the evidence was that two days after the attack, I understood it, the Friday, not the Thursday.

MS TANZER: I apologise, two days after the attack, and he was accompanied by policemen, had you seen these policemen before?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MS TANZER: And it was not the policemen that were identified here a few days ago?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I haven't seen them before, I just saw them for the very first time here.

MS TANZER: Did these policemen identify from which station they came from, or from where they came?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I cannot remember whether they said they were coming from Van der Byl or from Vereeniging, I cannot recall.

MS TANZER: Now last question, you said the next day you left early to work, did you take public transport that morning?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I boarded a taxi.

MS TANZER: Did you take a taxi from Terela?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not go there.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV LAX
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV SIGODI
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV SIBANYONI
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbatha, you may stand down.  There is still no sign of Mr Mkhize.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, as far as I know at this moment he hasn't arrived, but apparently he works at the taxi rank at Vereeniging, but that's the only information I have, but he's not here.
Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: No, in addition to that we've been informed, rightly or wrongly, truthfully or otherwise, that there are certain reasons why the chairs are empty and I thought it my duty to mention it to you and see what can be done.
Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

MR MAKANJEE: Sorry Advocate De Jager, Mr Nkosi is at presently giving evidence in Palm Ridge.  He is a member of the leadership and my instructions were that this difficulty was communicated to the Truth Commission and it was at the suggestion of the Truth Commission that the hearings be separate as far as the leadership is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) other witness on the merits?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, we had only intended to call these four people today.

ADV DE JAGER: There are 50 applicants, can't you call another applicant?

MR MAKANJEE: With respect Advocate de Jager, the applications with the agreement of members in the TRC we had agreed to try to trim down the applications in order also ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: And then we've still got 35 and we've dealt with one in two days.  When will we finish the other 34?

MR MAKANJEE: I'm certain that we will finish before the allocated time given to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, when are we going to start the rest?

MR MAKANJEE: Tomorrow morning Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it doesn't look like we've got much of a choice today.  I'm going to adjourn this matter and I want everybody to listen, 9 a.m. tomorrow morning not 10 a.m., 9 a.m. and we're adjourning to the Johannesburg Institute for Social Services Centre.  It's to be found on the corner of Queen Street and Battery Road in Mayfair and we will start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning and if there's no applicant that matter will be struck from the roll.  We have to get these applications done.  We are adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Fusi Simon Mofokeng is related to Johannes Nxala.  Now when we went to Bohlokong township, that's where Fusi Mofokeng stayed.  We found him in that house.  When we waited for this man to collect his money, something like that, Sir.  That was the first time I see, I mean I saw the man.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the first time that you heard of the Osman's farm?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: I heard about it in Court, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you then convicted of the murder of Mr Oosthuizen and the attempted murder of Mr Collie and the other attempted murder as well as possession of firearms?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you sentenced to?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Presently I am serving life sentence plus 31, Sir, but there are different charges and their sentences.  I don't remember the first charge, it seemed to be six years.  Then as for murder it's life sentence.  Attempted murder of Mr Collie is 12 years.  Possession of firearm and ammunition seemed to be 3 years.  I am not sure Sir, about this but it's roughly that.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that it was common practice for one SDU to assist another SDU in the Thokoza area, you said you used to go to Meadowlands and Polla Park and Thokoza and other places, was it common to assist other SDUs far away like in Natal?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Yes, it was common, Sir.  Even in Transkei, Sir.  Some of our cadres used to go there because I was not the only member of MK at that place, there were other members of MK involved with the SDU there, Sir.  So there were so many missions which were issued to different operators.

CHAIRPERSON: After the shooting of Mr Collie by yourself, what did you do with your firearm, your pistol?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Before I was arrested I heard guns cocking, rifles, then I threw my firearm not far away from me but in the grass, then it was subsequently found by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you distinguish the difference between the sound of an AK47 shot and let's say an R1 or an R4 shot?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you say that the AK47 has a distinct sound?

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Yes, it has got a unique sound, Sir.  Probably anyone who does not know the sound of an AK47 will start asking what type of sound is this.  It's got a unique sound.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MHLABA: No, thanks, I don't have any questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions arising?

MR MAPOMA: No, Sir, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Makhura, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.

STEPHEN DONALD MAKHURA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-18

CHAIRPERSON: We are continuing with the applications of Messrs Mosia, Mofokeng, Sera and Mohomane.  Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The testimony on behalf of four applicants has now been concluded, we are not calling any other witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba.  Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: We are not calling any further witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir, there is no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: So then it's just a question of submissions?  Mr Mhlaba?
Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Chairperson, if I can put it on a scale of 1-10, according to a military landmine I would say it's about 2 and military one would be about 10.

CHAIRPERSON: So your whole experience in this period that you've related, where you were a member of the Special Force, did you stay a member of that Special Force, you didn't become a member of the, or was it part of the "Ystergarde" or any other separate force within the movement?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, we were used to work with them in groups at several meetings but I was not a member of the "Wen Kommando" or the "Ystergarde".

CHAIRPERSON: "Orde van die Dood" and those sort of divisions?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And after the death of General Fourie in Mmbatho, who did you report to?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: His second in command who was then called Oscar.  I received instructions from him, but there weren't any more instructions because it was so close to the elections, Chairperson.  The last meeting was the one at Mr Hough's house where I received instructions from General Etsebeth together with the leader, Eugene Terre'blanche.  It was with his approval.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, there's another one to come.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Strydom, it may happen that I didn't understand you very well.  In connection ...(inaudible).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MR SIBANYONI: It may happen that I didn't understand  you well.  In connection with the planting of the bomb at Bultfontein taxi rank, I thought I heard you initially say it was an instruction from Eugene Terre'blanche but when we read your documents it refers to General Fourie.  Can you clarify me on that one?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: He was present and his instructions had the approval of Mr Terre'blanche.

MR SIBANYONI: Who is higher in rank between Eugene Terre'blanche and General Fourie?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: Chairperson, Eugene Terre'blanche was the leader of the AWB, therefore he would have had the highest rank but General Etsebeth was the General under his command and he was a fighting General.

MR SIBANYONI: You say the order was authorised by him but given by General Fourie?

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, any questions arising out of that last question?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No question, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Strydom, that concludes your testimony.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the case of the applicant.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

MR TAKA: Yes, Mr Chairperson, the people that I represent have indicated their willingness to meet the perpetrators of the acts against them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then if both sides are willing that's even much better.  Thank you.
	We will reserve our decision in this matter and expect to hand down a decision in the near future.  It will be handed down in writing and you'll be let known as soon as possible. 
	I would like to thank Mr Loubscher, Mr Taka, Mr Mapoma for their assistance rendered to us in this application.
	Mr Mapoma, this is the end of our roll in Welkom is it not?

MR MAPOMA: Certainly, Chairperson, that is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I would then just prior to adjourning, like to thank the community of Thabong and the relevant authority for providing this very nice facility to us for having these hearings, it's a very nice facility indeed.
	I would like to thank the Police Services for the security provided, although I must say that at no stage did we ever at all feel threatened in the slightest but the security was there in any event, thank you very much.
	I would like to thank the sound technicians for providing the sound, the TV camera.  It's been here every day.  The interpreters for their work.  It is an extremely tiring and difficult job doing simultaneous interpreting and the interpreters have done a tremendous job, thank you very much indeed. 
	I'd also like to thank the caterers for spoiling us and giving us tasty food, tea time and lunchtime.  Mr Mapoma who has been involved not only at the hearing here but to a great extent before the hearings.  The Logistics Officer, Melaney, thank you very much indeed.  If I've left out any person's name - our secretary, Mrs Pollock, thank you very much.  If I've left out anybody's name I can assure you it hasn't been with malice or ill will.  I thank everybody for making these hearings run as smoothly as they did, thank you very much.
	We will now adjourn, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

SIPHIWE NYANDA: These are incidents that we know took place while I was there as Commander of this project, Kletshwayo, the Special Operations Kletshwayo.  There well may be more, but these are the ones that we know were reported at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: General Nyanda, the last incident there, number 6 on page 17, Lance Corporal le Roux killed, was this just the feedback that you got or was this an operation that was specifically authorised beforehand?

SIPHIWE NYANDA: No, this is feedback we received, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So this would have been within the discretion of the operatives?

SIPHIWE NYANDA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Chair, if I can just take this one a bit further?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SANDI: General can you tell us more about the circumstances in which the feedback in regard to that particular incident was received by yourself and whoever?

SIPHIWE NYANDA: There was a report, I think, in the press about this incident and it is quite possible that the person who was commanding the operations, Viva, actually received verbal feedback from the operative who carried out the - who placed the landmine.

ADV SANDI: is that to say that you did not personally receive feedback in regard to this specific incident?

SIPHIWE NYANDA: Chairman, I have said that I had no direct contact with, or in most instances I had no direct contact with the operatives, that there was a Chief of Operations who brief operatives about what to do and gave them the hardware, the mines to plant, so I have no - very rarely did I have direct contact with the people who carried out the attacks with the mines.

ADV SANDI: ;   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Sandi.  Mr Berger, any re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER

MR BERGER: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  General Nyanda, you're excused.  Thank you.

SIPHIWE NYANDA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Perhaps we should just take a brief adjournment at this stage.  We are trying to catch up, but I think let's get our breath back.  We'll adjourn for thirty minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure if you do refer to that in your statement, so I won't rely on my recollection, I'll just ask you, General Nyanda refers to six incidents on page 17 of the papers.  Do you confirm those as incidents that fell within this campaign?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive, although actually like I say, that I take in fact responsibility for all the incidents.  There might be others that are not listed here.  Gen Nyanda left early in Swaziland, while I was still there.

CHAIRPERSON: But just so as to be able to identify more concretely some incidents, these one here you do confirm, these six on page 17?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: It's difficult to maybe single out incident by incident here, because these things happened a long time ago, but I move from premises that we were responsible for the landmines in the Eastern Transvaal.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the basis of Gen Nyanda's evidence, let's assume that this was, as he testified, this was part of the campaign.  On that basis you would take responsibility for that as well?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, just for the record, you're looking for a statement in Gen Shoke's statement, at page 35 there's just the sentence, just before paragraph 13
"I do not know how many incidents took place but I accept that the ANC is responsible for all landmines planted during that period."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, I've got it, thank you Mr Berger.  Yes, you do confirm that Gen Shoke.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes thank you.  Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: I have no re-examination thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Gen Shoke you're excused.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, the last applicant is Sgt-Maj Dick Mkhonto.
Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I wish to leave this matter in your hands.  I will not be opposing this application.  Thank you.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Ms Mtanga.  Yes, that concludes the formal proceedings at this stage.  As we have indicated at the commencement of these proceedings this morning, we would have preferred to see that the logistical arrangements concerning this matter be dealt with more efficiently than it turned out to be.  If I understand the position correctly,there is one interested party whom the Commission has been unable to ascertain whether he wishes to place any material before us, or has anything to contribute towards the decision in this matter.  We have ruled this morning that it is in the interests of justice that at this stage the proceedings should carry on, as they have up to this point.  However, Ms Mtanga, we would want you to continue to get a clear indication from Mr Motsa as to what his position is, so we would be prepared to consider any material that he wishes to put before us, so you will, in the circumstances, continue your contact with him and...

MS MTANGA: I will do so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And indicate to Ms Cambanis and Mr Berger if there is anything that he wants to contribute so that they could then consider whether they would want to respond to anything that he might raise.
	But under those circumstances, the formal proceedings are concluded at this stage.  We will consider the evidence, all of the material that has been placed before us as well as the argument of Mr Berger and any possible further material that might be forthcoming and we will endeavour to come to a decision on the applications as soon as circumstances permit, but under those circumstances we would, at this stage, reserve the decision in the matter.
	We would just take the opportunity to thank you Mr Berger for your assistance, Ms Cambanis and Ms Mtanga.  It's appreciated.  
	I assume that takes care of the roll for the day as well?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, that's the case.

CHAIRPERSON: And that the proceedings will reconvene?

MS MTANGA: On Thursday.

CHAIRPERSON: Thursday morning.

MS MTANGA: Yes for the Snyders and Kruger matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  We will then adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here on Thursday morning at 9 o'clock.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: Is our next witness Mr Kruger?

MR SMIT: That is correct, the next applicant would then be Mr Kruger.

MR SNYDERS: Chairperson, may I just ask, we have no further interest with the second and third applicants, may we be excused from the proceedings?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you, Mr van Wyk, we appreciate your help.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We had indicated that because we are sitting longer than we would normally sit today we will take a very, very short adjournment after the first applicant.  We'll take a 10 minute adjournment just to allow people to stretch their legs before we continue with the second applicant.  So we'll stand down for 10 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS