Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR BOTMA: That is correct. You listened to his evidence whilst he was giving evidence in chief as well as during cross-examination. Is that evidence correct or not according to your own opinion?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: The reason why I am taking time to answer this question is because when somebody is in court they do not want to see themselves in a tight corner. You try to defend yourself when you are in court. Perhaps he was defending himself telling the truth or maybe he was not telling the truth. I did not take part in court at all. I do not want any questions that would concern what happened in court except in connection with my application for amnesty. You were a prosecutor in court. You know that I did not take part. There is the person who spoke in court, he is sitting there. It would be difficult for me to say whether he was telling the truth or not. You must be aware that you do not want to see yourself in a tight corner. You apply a whole lot of measures to take yourself out of that spot.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Kulman just assist the Committee in answering this question? Because it is informative for the Committee. Just what you can remember of the evidence that was led. If you cannot remember certain aspects well be that as it may but there must be areas you can remember. What was your opinion of what you can remember your co-accused in that case saying? That is all that the advocate wants to know. What did you think, was it true or not? Your own opinion, it would assist us.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There were things that he said that were true.

ADV GCABASHE: Would you be able to remember which particular aspects were true and where you may differ with him? Just what you can remember of that would assist us.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I could not remember because I was not interested in the trial.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR BOTMA: During the trial whilst the state witnesses were giving evidence certain instructions were given to counsel that was put to the witnesses, can you recall that and did you participate in those instructions given to your counsel?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I would appreciate it if you would remind.

MR BOTMA: What I am saying is that instructions were given to your counsel about what happened there at the scene and let us talk specifically about the killing of Mr Mike Meyers of what the shooting itself, what happened there. Instructions were given there, let's start first of all with Thanduxolo's truck, where it stopped, etc. Can you recall that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not want to answer a question that I do not understand well. Instructions that were given to the attorney by the court? I cannot remember please assist me?

MR BOTMA: Your counsel, Mr Zilwa, who appeared on your behalf put certain versions to the state witnesses about the truck of Thanduxolo at the scene where the shooting of Mr Mike Meyers took place. Can you recall those instructions?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember. I have forgotten.

MR BOTMA: Let me then rephrase or help you with your memory there, refresh your memory. Right at the beginning there is a witness who testified there with the name of Zingalela and it was put to your counsel, Mr Zilwa to this witness that a truck of Thanduxolo was parked about 25 metres from the truck of Mr Mike Meyers in a ditch or sort of a quarry there. Can you recall that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I must have forgotten, seriously. I have already said I have a problem. I was tortured, I have memory lapses. Even some of the operations that I was involved in. I have scars on my head. My head is full of scars and indentations. I have problems with memory. I cannot remember exactly. I am surprised that we are going back to the trial in court. The prosecutor was there. I did not say a thing in the trial. I had no interest. I am surprised that he is raising this matter. I am here at the TRC to tell the truth, you take me back to court now. I do not know if I can cope with that. There is the person who spoke in court. They can ask him. I did not take part in court. I was sentenced, I had not said a word there. Please can your questions focus on my application? (...indistinct) Can you put the trial aside because it is not helping me at all?

MR BOTMA: I do not believe I am out of order otherwise the Chairman would have ordered so. Let me go back to the trial and the question of - I am not interested in what you told your counsel but, did you give instructions to your counsel during the trial? Did you consult with your counsel?

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why you are being questioned in this regard as I understand it is to determine your credibility and whether one can rely on what you are now telling us. You sit back and say: "I am now telling the truth." The advocate is quite entitled to test that and to see whether you are now telling the truth by comparing it with what you may have instructed your attorney to say on your behalf at the trial. We know you did not give evidence but we also know that you were represented throughout the trial by an attorney as you are at the present time. And attorneys take instructions from their clients before they put versions to the other states of the state witnesses. And that is what you are being asked about. Do you understand?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I understand. I want to answer again. I did not give any attorney any instructions. Because I did not say a thing in the trial. I was expecting anything. I did not take part in the trial. I did not instruct any attorney. I was expecting anything. Whatever the sentence was I was prepared. I told myself that I am going to cope with whatever they hand out to me. Please could you withdraw your question?

MR BOTMA: Are you now saying that you did not give any instructions at any stage to your counsel during the trial?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: What kind of instructions?

MR BOTMA: About what happened during any of these incidents from the beginning, from the time that you got to Mr Mike Meyers until the end when you were arrested?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I see that this is necessary, I am going to tell you what happened during the trial. They found representatives for us to represent us in the case. I told him or her that I was not going to testify. He begged me for my statement. I gave him a statement. That was it if I remember well. I do not remember anything else beyond that. I gave in a statement as to how I was arrested. Everything else really depended on my co-accused because he is the one who gave evidence in court. I did not say a word in court.

MR BOTMA: At the beginning of the trial you were represented by Advocate Muller as he then was and then at a later stage Mr Zilwa took over as counsel. Now in the beginning you first gave instructions to your counsel, Advocate Muller then that you knew nothing about this incident and that you were only along the road when you were arrested. Is that correct Sir? Along the road towards Adishua.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I could not say it is so or not. I cannot remember what was happening in the trial. What I do remember however is that Muller withdrew from being our representative. Whether I said that or not, it could be so. I have not kept this in my memory.

MR BOTMA: The instructions you gave in the beginning to Advocate Muller as he then was that you were on the way walking along the road between Adishua and Umtata when the police came across you and arrested you there. And you know nothing about this incident, about the killing of Mike or Donne Meyers. See if you can recall that now?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Maybe I did say that. Maybe I did not say it. I do not know.

MR BOTMA: So you gave instructions to your counsel at the beginning of the trial?