Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

ADV SANDI: Mr Gqomfa, in the course of your military training as a soldier of APLA, were you told anything about the situation in other words what happens to civilians in the course of armed conflict?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was not told about civilians when I was trained, but please explain the question, maybe I am not answering it correctly.  Please ask the question again clearly.

ADV SANDI: I am not sure if you've got the Bundle of all the documentation that we have in front of us, I think it is page 234.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't have it before him.

ADV SANDI: Do you know a person by the name of Brigadier Fischla, one of the members of the high Command of APLA?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I know Fischla.

ADV SANDI: On page 234, when he was asked a question, that is during the hearing when the TRC was trying to find out from members of the military wings of the political organisations, a question was put to him as to what was the position regarding international humanitarian law, that is concerning civilians, what happens to civilians in the course of a war, and I am going to read to you his answer which was as follows "the fact of the matter is that we did not consider any international humanitarian law.  At no stage did we in our camps educate our forces about international humanitarian law.  The first time I understood what international humanitarian law is, is when I integrated into the South African National Defence Force and that is when I got the meaning of what international humanitarian law is and what I discovered also when I integrated into the SANDF is that equally the former SADF did not even know what international humanitarian law was."  Do you have any reaction to make to that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I did not learn anything about international humanitarian law.

ADV SANDI: I would not expect you to know anything about those matters.  What I am trying to find out from you is, whether Brigadier Fischla is correct when he says in the course of the military training, when they were training their soldiers in APLA, there would be no mention of those things what happens to civilians, the do's and don'ts of the war, etc?  Do you agree with that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Is it your evidence then, that it made no difference to you so as long as the order was given, to kill soldiers, police, innocent civilians - it made absolutely no difference to you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It made no difference, I was given an order to kill people, I killed those people.

MR PRIOR: And, was that in line with the APLA policy that there was no distinction between soft or hard targets?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was never told about soft and hard targets, I cannot answer that question.  I was never told about such.

MR PRIOR: I just want to finally pose one more question on this aspect.  Did you not have any discretion as the Commander to assess a situation and to break off an attack when you realised that the targets or the victims could not possibly have advanced your political conviction or your political objective?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, I do not change orders within APLA.  It was not expected of me to change orders and not do what I was commanded to do.
	If you were given an order, you had to comply with it.  It was not expected of me to defy the orders.

MR PRIOR: Even if that order was wrong?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that has been covered adequately.  This question has been put in different forms over and over again, I think you should just proceed further now Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gqomfa, when did you leave Cape Town after the attack, that is the attack on Heidelberg?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: If I remember clearly, I think it was on the 2nd of January.

MR PRIOR: And when were you arrested?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: In July 1994.

MR PRIOR: And was that in the Transkei?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: In Port Elizabeth.

MR PRIOR: Did you have any communication with Mr Madasi or Mr Mabala after you left Cape Town, in January 1994?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No.

MR PRIOR: Will the Committee just bear with me for a moment.   Mr Chairman, as the Committee will realise I am also safeguarding the interests to a certain extent, of the victims.  At the luncheon adjournment, the victims and the families made a request - I was in a difficult situation that I had not consulted as an Attorney would normally consult with a client, in that I would not be in a position to put certain questions that they would like to put to witnesses as individuals.
	The request has come from the majority of the families, to be allowed that opportunity to put questions, certain questions - obviously within the limits described by the Committee to them.  To that end, I have no further questions of this applicant on the aspects of his evidence, and I would ask the Committee to allow those victims present in order, to ask the questions they wished to.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not their wish that after consultation with them, you put questions on their behalf, to this witness?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I have canvassed that very question and certain of the next of kin in particular and of the victims in particular, wished to ask the applicants personally certain questions, which I think I would not be able to do in the first person, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand.  Would you indicate to us who it is that would like to put questions to this witness?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I have notes from a Mr Fourie, the father of one of the deceased, Mr Michael January and Mr Quentin Cornelius.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, oh, you've changed your mind?  At the end of the hearings?  The other names?

MR PRIOR: Mr Michael January.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr January?  Are you here Mr January?  Have you got questions that you wish to put at this stage to this witness?
	Can I just ask you to get as close to a microphone as possible.  I am going to ask you whether what you want to do is to put a question to this witness or whether you wish to make a statement?

MR JANUARY: At this point Mr Chairman, I do not wish to make a statement.  The question I have passed to Mr Prior during the lunch break was that in the report submitted or the application submitted by the applicant, he mentioned that there was a contact that they would meet in Cape Town and I just wanted to confirm that the contact he mentioned was Siphiwo Mqweso and that this in fact was the person that introduced them to the PAC Executive Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.  Put those questions in that order to this applicant.

MR JANUARY: In your application you mentioned that your Cape Town contact would be a certain Siphiwo Mqweso, is that correct?  What was the position of this person, was he a member of the PAC Executive or a member of APLA?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He was a member of APLA.

MR JANUARY: Was it this person who introduced you to the PAC Executive Committee, specifically to Mr Michael Siyolo?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No.

MR JANUARY: Under what circumstances did you contact Mr Mqweso?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He knew where we stayed, he would come and see us as our homes, or houses that we stayed at.  If we had needed reinforcement, he would be the person to contact.

MR JANUARY: Was it your understanding that Mr Mqweso was a member of the local APLA unit in the Western Cape and he would be your liaison to the Local Commander units?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The question is not clear.

MR JANUARY: Was it your understanding that Mr Mqweso in determining whether you would need reinforcements, that he would have contact with the local APLA commander units?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What are you referring to when you are talking about commander units?