Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after the killing, what did you do?  After you killed them, what did you do?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After killing them I left for my home, I went to my home because I told you earlier on that I was instructed to rest and after executing this task I went home, I did not do anything thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: What time of the day did you kill them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It would be difficult to recall an incident of 1993 but it was on the 7th.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I understand, I understand very well Mr Motlokwa.  I just want to find out, was it midday, was it in the morning,  was it in the afternoon, evening?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was in the morning Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you understand that Mr Buthelezi's wife was also killed after that incident?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chair, I heard that Mrs Buthelezi was also killed but I don't knowledge as to who killed her.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear that she was also killed by the members of the Self-defence Unit?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe is the relevant person to answer that question, I told you already that I left for my house.  What transpired after the eight were killed I do not know.

MR MALAN: Could I just ask here?
	According to Advocate Madasa you are applying for amnesty for the killing of all the victims except Bulelwa, now on the list of victims is also the name of Mrs Buthelezi.  If you have no knowledge of that, why do you apply for amnesty for the death of Mrs Buthelezi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The list from the Attorney General's office doesn't have Mrs Buthelezi's name.  If ever she had been killed by members of the SDU, the relevant person to answer that question would be Ntjebe.  I've only applied for those eight people, not even Vips because Vips was also part of this group so I've applied for amnesty to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you have applied for amnesty for only those people for whose death you stand charged?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.
...[End of tape 1B, day 2 - no follow-on sound]

MR MAPOMA: ...[no sound] what you did when you killed those whom you killed was politically motivated, how do you say that it was politically motivated to kill those people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The task of the SDU was to defend the community.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  But the community had an opportunity to decide what it is that has to be done about these youths and it did not resolve that these  youths must be killed.  How do you explain this one?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, if we speak of the SDU and the civic, these are similar organisations but an order is not issued out in front of everybody, it must be directed to members of the SDU.  Even members of the community who wanted to be part of the killing, Ntjebe did not allow them to take part in the killing because he only wanted members of the SDU.

MR MAPOMA: So the killing of the youths was an instruction which came from neither the community nor the African National Congress?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said the order was from Ndondolo.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any re-examination Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair.
	At the meeting at Blanko's place you were not in control of the meeting, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: You were not chairing the meeting, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: You've told us about your own observations at the meeting, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: You do not know all that happened at the meeting, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MADASA: The meeting had many people and there was movement at the meeting, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Emotions of people at the meeting were highly charged, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: The members of the Committee will now put questions to you Mr Motlokwa.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to Mr Motlokwa?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Motlokwa, when listening to your evidence I have this feeling that it would appear that Vips was treated differently from the other people.  You were saying for some time he was kept in a kombi and when the execution took place, Vips was not killed by you but he was killed by the other people.  Can you please clarify me on that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chair, I said already that Vips was not killed with the rest of the group.  He left with Manyala and them and they took him to Kumalo section.  Kumalo and Moleleki sections are not the same.  They took him to that section to kill him there, I don't know the reasons thereof but he was killed.

MR SIBANYONI: And then you have just said you applied for the killing of eight people but I see in your application, paragraph A, sub-paragraph I, you are saying when the question says
"Acts or omissions of offences"
you say:
"nine : murder and thirteen kidnapping"
and then on sub-paragraph 4, you are saying:
"We killed nine of these gangsters"
Can you explain this difference?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, it is so in my application.  I've applied for amnesty for killing nine people and thirteen cases of kidnapping.  I'm applying for nine because I was part and parcel of the SDU, now I was present and involved when these eight people were killed, Vips included, because he was at the meeting and that is why I'm also asking for amnesty with regard to his case.

MR SIBANYONI: And earlier you said when you were asked: "Did you raise this matter with the ANC"?, first of all you said you wrote a letter, should I understand that you were part of the people who drafted the letter or you were not?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Vusi drafted the letter.

MR SIBANYONI: You were not part of that process?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It's the executive Sir, the executive of the SDU.

MR SIBANYONI: If there was supposed to be a meeting between the SDU's and the ANC or if the matter was supposed to be raised at that level, would you be the person who should take the initiative or somebody else or other people were supposed to do that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: If the meeting would have succeeded I would not be present because I was not a - the member of the executive would be there and then they would give us the feedback at a general meeting because the executive of the SDU had its own meetings separate from the general meetings.

MR SIBANYONI: Now your position in the SDU's, was it at a level where you could be part of the decision making or not?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I was at a lower level, I was an operator.  I was only given orders, I would not have taken any decision.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.
	I have a number of matter which I'd like some clarity on, the first is the relation between the ANC Youth League and the SDU.  In your evidence, you said part of the problems you had with the Youth League was that they were harassing the Zulu speaking people and they were also doing crime, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now we also have information in one of your co-applicants' application form that the youth had a very bad relationship with Ndondolo, with Ntjebe, they didn't like him.  Is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not have evidence to that effect Sir.

MR MALAN: From the applications it seems that the majority of the applicants are Xhosa speaking but the majority of the victims are Zulus.