Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

M C NQINANA: I heard a car from the police college, Bisho Police College, we heard our police radios, it was announced through the radios that anyone who is in possession of a car should go and fetch Captain Sawuti as he was wanted in the hall concerning what was happening there but at that time I was not in the hall.  Because I was in possession of a car I had to go and fetch him and bring him to the hall and I did so.

MR OBOSE: Or you were not in the hall when this announcement was made?

M C NQINANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you ill treat him or anyone in your company?

M C NQINANA: I did not even utter a word to him.  There were two of us in the car, it was Inspector Tyali Sergeon Moleshe and myself.  The person who talked to him and knocked at his house was Moleshe.  We did not even talk to him from his place to the hall.  The only person who was talking to him was Inspector Moleshe all the way, I was just driving the car.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Nqinana, when the soldiers arrived there and said that they were with you on your mission of overthrowing Gqozo, would I be correct to say actually when the soldiers arrived there, they were having the concerns which the police were also having, (i) their future in South Africa, in the new South Africa, (ii) their pension monies.  Was it not the case?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it looks like there is a problem with the headphones of the applicant.

M C NQINANA: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have said that when the soldiers arrived there they said they were with you homeboys in the overthrowing of Brigadier Gqozo.  Now I'm putting a proposition to you that is it not the case that the soldiers were with you because they were also concerned about their future in the new South Africa and also about the pension monies which was also the concern of the police?

M C NQINANA: I do not think that they were referring to that.  The situation was already political in the hall, I do not think that they were referring to those problems like pension.  According to the mood in the hall, according to my perception I think they wanted to overthrow Gqozo or to get Gqozo down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Okay, let's get it differently now.  There in the hall, was there any talk about the overthrowing of Gqozo, that people here were gathered to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo.  Was there talk like that?

M C NQINANA: At the time I was in the hall there was such talks like "down with Gqozo" or "away with Gqozo".  I am certain that the people were aware that Gqozo should step down on that particular day.  They were even quoting the ANC members.  Things were that at those times you couldn't mention Gqozo's name and the ANC but according to what was happening there it was a clear message that Gqozo should step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But there was no talk about go and plan to make Gqozo to resign or to step down, is that correct?

M C NQINANA: I cannot say there was no such because I was not present in the hall, I had missed out so many things that were happening there, I would only hear those that were happening during my presence.  What made me to say that the people who were saying that Gqozo should go down is because of the hall and the utterances that were made at the hall but I was also far away from the planning.  I cannot say that there was no plan, specific plan to say Gqozo should step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Actually, am I correct to say every time you went in you would find people asking about their pensions, sports club money, orphan's funds and all that, is that correct?

M C NQINANA: That was happening, that happened at the beginning when the people were still collecting the other people.  In the afternoon such subjects, there was nothing said about that, it was when they were still waiting for Nqoya but after they started panicking they started singing.  Now there was nothing, nothing was mentioned of pension funds and other things.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Other than chanting slogans "down with Gqozo, down with Makwethu, down with so and so", other than that, there was no talk that Gqozo should resign, is that correct?

M C NQINANA: There would be such talks.  Perhaps if they were shouting the slogans they would say "down with Gqozo", there were such utterances.  There were utterances such as they are going to bring Gqozo down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And on the freedom songs, that has always been the theme that we are going to bring Gqozo down, down with Gqozo, viva ANC, viva PAC, viva whoever are people in favour of at that particular moment, is that not the case?  Down with De Klerk?  Is that not the case?

M C NQINANA: Will you please repeat your question because I do not understand, I have a problem with my headphones.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The question is, the theme of the freedom songs has always been "down with Gqozo, down with De Klerk, down with Matanzima, down with whoever they are not in favour of and viva ANC, viva PAC, viva COSATU, viva Popcru, you name them.  Is that not the case with the freedom songs?  The theme is always the same?

M C NQINANA: I am not going to be able to answer this question properly, I am not very much involved in politics.  I am not going to say this is right and that is wrong but I am telling you about what was happening there I am not saying this was what was supposed to happen and something else, I know nothing about politics.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes and would I be correct to say the freedom songs were sung because those people in the hall were bored for waiting for Nqoya who was not coming and to occupy their minds they were singing church songs, they were singing freedom songs, is that not the case?

M C NQINANA: There were no church songs.  At least I know the difference between a freedom song and a church song.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You see, according to one of the people who testified - Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether it was Nkwenkwe or Mfene, but one of the two?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, we can find out if it's very important but somebody said there were some church songs sung, ja.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And in fact he says his participation also was on singing church songs because he likes them.  What are you saying to that?

M C NQINANA: As I've said earlier on I was not there all the time.  Perhaps such church songs were sung but at the time I was there, there were no church songs.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, lastly on this topic am I correct to say not one person, not one person ever said "today we are going, today our plan is to topple Gqozo and to hand over Ciskei to South Africa", that there was no such talk by any person other than the chanting of slogans and the freedom songs?

M C NQINANA: Yes it was done but not formally, perhaps a person would go and speak at the microphone, there was nothing that was formal, that the result of the discussion.  That was what I saw when I was in there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The officers were actually kept against their will in the hall therefore your proposition that everybody was on the same mood is not correct, am I correct in saying that?

M C NQINANA: If you did specify from the beginning I could have explained that yes the officers were not in the same mood for the fact they had to be fetched to be there you did not make a difference.  Yes they were forced to be there, they were taken from the places of residence to the home.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when the officers were there they were never asked about their loyalty to Gqozo or whatever of that nature, all they were asked about were the monies which it was alleged that they have misappropriated, is that correct?

M C NQINANA: At the time of questioning during my presence they were being asked about the monies.