Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know, you'll have to ask that at Gate 9, I don't know.

MS COLERIDGE: What do you mean by Gate 9?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because I don't know if he was there, go and ask him.

MS COLERIDGE: Because in your Section 29 you stated that Peaches also had missions to accomplish in South West Africa.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know anything about that.

MS COLERIDGE: Right.  The next incident I want to talk to you about is, can you recall that Mr Peaches had informed you about the Dullah Omar incident?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again I don't know, I can't recall.  If you want to know, I think Gate 9 has a telephone number.  If he told me, I would have told you.

MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you this is because you said to our Investigative Unit that in relation to the Dullah Omar incident, Peaches was tasked to kill Mr Omar.  What is your comment?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again, what I said to Zenzile was a lot of shit, because I just wanted them to get away from me.

MS COLERIDGE: You also stated that there was a certain woman, a domestic worker in the Omar house that assisted him, what is your comment about that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't even know who worked for Mr Omar.  The other day I saw Mr Omar for the first time.  He's never had such a discussion with me.  I don't even know who Peaches was working for, I only found out subsequently who he was working for.

MS COLERIDGE: You also stated that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just one second.
	Are you saying that this transcript of a discussion with you is just totally fabricated by Mr Petersen and Mr Khoisan?  Are you saying they didn't record what they spoke to you about and this transcript is just total fabrication?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I know they came to speak to me, but I don't know anything about a recording.  If they made a recording, then they did so.  But once again, I didn't want those people with me because I couldn't trust anybody at that stage anymore, because they didn't show me any kind of identification indicating who they were.

MR LAX: Did you ever go to the office of the Truth Commission, in Adderley Street in Cape Town?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Where Lynn is?

MR LAX: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: And did you sit down there and talk to Mr Zenzile?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You see, I'm going to read you the first paragraph of this thing, where Mr Zenzile's talking.  He says here
"Mr Isgak Hardien, thank you very much for attending the interview here at the TRC.  We would like to discuss the activities and allegations against the former CCB and specifically we would like to discuss the role that you played during that time."
Do you remember that he sat down with you and placed all of that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I recall that he sat down and spoke, but I don't know whether it was that or what it was.

MR LAX: Well this was an interview that was specifically recorded and this is how he started it off, and he made reference to your Section 29 affidavit and he asked you a whole lot of questions, it must have taken quite a long time, in the office of the Truth Commission.  Do you remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I recall that he came to fetch me and that we went to the offices.

MR LAX: Yes, and this was in August 1997, some three years ago.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall when it took place.

MR LAX: Yes, but it's not very long ago, it's a couple of years, surely you remember that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I know that he came to fetch me and I telephoned him again.

MR LAX: Now what I want to know is, when you went to the Truth Commission, why did you go there, why did you go and sit down with him in an office there and talk to him about all these things?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He was at my house and he came to tell me that he was from the TRC, and then I said to him: "No, I don't trust you."  He returned, probably after a week and then I asked him, before we went to any office: "Listen, you said you're from the TRC, I've seen it on the TV, I've seen it in the papers, all the people, I've seen this thing about amnesty, where do I fit in?"  Then he asked me whether I would be prepared to accompany him to the offices because he would assist me.  And that is how it happened that we went to the office.  And then I found out that he came to me with a whole bunch of stories, because then he wanted to know whether I was ever at certain places and if I hadn't phoned myself, I wouldn't even have known about this business.  I telephone Lynn myself, no-one told me: "You have to be at such and such a place, this is going to be happening."  I used my own mind and phoned people and made enquiries and said: "Listen, I've heard my name on the radio ...(intervention)

MR LAX: I'm asking you about your interview with Khoisan, what happened afterwards is a different story.  I want you to focus your mind on your interview.  Do you understand?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I understand.  I went with him to the offices, but I cannot recall what exactly we discussed.  He asked me questions and I simply gave him answers for the sake of answering.  Do you understand me?

MR LAX: Yes.  So when you said to him that you knew Peaches for a long time, from primary school ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: I've known Peaches, he's been operating with me since Sub A.

MR LAX: So that wasn't a lie, that wasn't a lie, that's the truth.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, he wanted to know about Peaches and I said I've known Peaches since Sub A.

MR LAX: Yes.  And that you said before he was murdered he was a member of the Dixie Boys, is that true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Peaches was a member of the Dixie Boys, it was impossible to hide that.

MR LAX: And yourself?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm not a gangster.

MR LAX: Well you see, here you say you were higher than him, were you lying about that?

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Lax, where are you?  When you say "here"?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 160.  That is the first page of the taped conversation.

MR MARTINI: Thanks, Chairperson.

MR LAX: In fact where he says he was higher than him is a bit further on in that interview.
	But in the interview that's what you say, that you were a senior to him.  You avoid saying that you were the leader, but you say that you were senior to him.  Was that just lies?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, he may have misinterpreted what I saw.  All of them respected me, that is what I tried to convey to him, every last Dixie.

MS COLERIDGE: It's page 161, Mr Lax.
	Mr Hardien, then I just want to take you back to your Section 29 detention, how did it come about that you were detained?  Can you explain that to us?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I can just recall that they came to fetch me and the next thing I saw I was in John Vorster Square and they told me: "Your friend Peaches is on the other side, but he'll be going home today", and then it was said that I was the one who planted the bomb and they said fine and he went home and I stayed.

MS COLERIDGE: And was Mr Slang van Zyl also detained when you were detained at that time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know if it was at the same time, but he was there.

MS COLERIDGE: Because in one of the statements it's stated that you actually shared the same cell for a short while.  Can you remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I don't recall that, you couldn't share a cell.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, could Ms Coleridge point out to us in which statement it's alleged they shared the same cell?  You know to just put it to this ...

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I will find the reference and I will make it available, Chairperson.
	Mr Isgak can you tell us, all in all, how much money did you receive from the CCB?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MS COLERIDGE: And do you remember how many times you received money from the CCB, besides the Athlone Early Learning Centre?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I really cannot recall whether it was two or three times.

MS COLERIDGE: Your South West Africa trip, did you receive money there?