Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: Then at page 296 you say, in paragraph 27.2.5 a case in point which I can recall was the sale of six AK47 rifles to Chief Luthuli from Port Shepstone.  Chief Luthuli came to my house at Ulundi one afternoon in about 1994, he was alone and was driving his Mercedes Benz motor car.
	He told me that he wanted to purchase six AK47 rifles, he had R6 000-00 cash with him, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: I referred him to Mr M.R. Mzimela.  A few weeks later I called to see Chief Luthuli and he enquired about the weapons?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: And he thanked you for your help at the end of the paragraph, for getting these weapons for him, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, when a convenient stage arises, I am informed that it is ...

MR HEWIT: I hadn't noticed it was so late Mr Chairman, may we adjourn now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will now take the lunch adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue.

MR HEWIT: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Luthuli, I don't want to go into any detail in your affidavit regarding the various sources where you claim you obtained the firearms, but would it be correct to say that over the period that you were the as you put it, the Overall Commander of this armed wing, that a lot of money passed through your hands for purchase of firearms from various sources?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is not correct.

MR HEWIT: You say a lot of money didn't pass through your hands for the purchase of firearms?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: You didn't hand over money from Chiefs who, as a conduit, I mean, you received money from people and then conveyed it to the supplier of the firearms?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: You say that didn't happen on many occasions?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: What is the grand total of money then that you say would have passed through your hands, for the purchase of firearms?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I wasn't quite clear what his answer was, it seems to be a little - Mr Luthuli, what are you saying?  I just want for clarity, are you saying that you did receive money for firearms and paid it over to the supplier or are you saying you didn't do that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say there were instances where I would collect money from the branches to go and pay C.J. Mtethu or C.J. Mtethu would send me several types of firearms, after having spoken to the one to whom he was taking me.
	My duty was to collect the arms and drop them off and give me whatever amount he was giving me, and I would give the money to C.J.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I think that is clearer now Mr Hewit.

MR HEWIT: Please turn to page 250 of your affidavit.  Do you have that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And in particular paragraph 15.16.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: There you say criminals were encouraged to steal as many weapons as they could, and to hand these over to their leaders?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: When you use the word criminals, I get the impression you are not referring the IFP supporters?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I am talking indeed about the IFP supporters.

MR HEWIT: Well, why are you calling them criminals, aren't they just people helping in the cause, to arm the IFP to fight the UDF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It so happened that in an area where the IFP was in control, not everybody who was in that area was an IFP member.
	There were criminals as well in those areas who were known and such people were used with the knowledge that they had of stealing, they too could help steal firearms.

MR HEWIT: And when you say these criminals would hand over these to their leaders, what sort of leaders were these, gang leaders or criminal leaders or IFP people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We are talking about the IFP here, we have never spoken about gangs and criminals.
	What I am saying here is that these criminals were plenty, they would not disappear simply because the area was controlled by the IFP.  The knowledge that they had, was knowledge that was used by the local leadership.

MR HEWIT: All right, and these people wouldn't necessary IFP supporters that you used, these criminals with knowledge?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As I have already explained, these criminals in those areas were used in areas that were controlled by the IFP.

MR HEWIT: Would these criminals be paid by you people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It would depend on the leader in that area, as to whether he was buying or he was being given free of charge by the criminals, but they were being encouraged.

MR HEWIT: All right, please turn to page 272 of your affidavit and in particular paragraph 24.4.
	You say there, over the next year or so we had numerous meetings with Major Paul Berry, either at the Polo Pony Hotel or Botha's Hill Hotel.  Mr M.Z. Khumalo was often present at these meetings.  There were other white and African men with the Major at these meetings, whose names I cannot remember.  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: What happened to your very reason for never going to another Planning Committee, namely that you didn't like the connection with Military Intelligence or the SANDF, why did you mix with this Major Paul Berry if that was your view?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I indicated yesterday that on arrival in Mpumalanga, I discovered that the leadership there had bodyguards seconded to them by the Military Intelligence.
	I don't know who told Paul Berry, I don't know that, but I strongly suspect that he was told by M.Z. Khumalo.
	That is why he asked that we had a meeting with him because they had a problem that Zakhile Mkehle had now died.  They wanted a person who would occupy his position and therefore he was coming to present himself, to say I am also here as an Inkatha member, myself also being the Military Intelligence, I am also helping because I too am at war.
	Therefore I was supposed to go there, so that I could get to know him.

MR HEWIT: Let's talk about the eSikhawini hit squad.  You say Major Langeni was appointed Commander of that hit squad?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Why were you not appointed Commander of the hit squad seeing you were the Overall Commander of the Inkatha armed wing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me help you out on this one.  I would go back to the Mkuze camp.  When I got to Mkuze camp, there was Langeni himself being Commander of the camp, and I was from hiding.
	All the Caprivians were now under his command at Mkuze camp.  All these Caprivians on joining the KwaZulu Police, were such that a person who was now in charge above myself, was now Langeni himself.
	The reason being that he was a Police, he was an Inkatha member and he also knew about the Caprivians.  There was nothing new about that.  Nothing was surprising to the fact that he was now in charge of the hit squads at eSikahwini.

MR HEWIT: So this hit squad was not under your direct control?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: You told us that you entered the Witness Protection Programme at the end of December 1994, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Well, when did you enter the Witness Protection Programme?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That was at the beginning of 1995.

MR HEWIT: Yes, that is quite correct, you say here in paragraph 44.5 of page 331, I received my last salary at the end of December 1994, I entered the Witness Protection Programme on the 3rd of January 1995, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.