Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, if the Committee could listen to the tape and compare it, the Committee will then also notice that this note - the so-called statement, does not reflect - it's not a true reflection of what transpired, so how can Mr Brandt say it's not correct or it's wiped out or anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway you maintain that 54, 59 and 60 are on the tape.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: You maintain that they are on the tape, 54, 59 and 60?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, the wording of 60 differs from what is stated here, that is what I'm saying.  When the time comes Mr Chairman, we can view the tape - with reference to that particular aspect, and the Committee will then notice there's nothing wiped out but the notes are incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Brandt.

MR BRANDT: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mrs Derby-Lewis, let's move to the other thing, you were questioned extensively by Captain Deetleffs inter alia, correct?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: What role did Colonel van Niekerk play, did he at any stage question you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Colonel van Niekerk saw me at 3 o'clock - around 3 o'clock on the afternoon of the 21st, when he advised me that I would be placed under Section 29.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he question you, did he participate in your interrogation?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR BRANDT: So that was the sum total of his role?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: He did come in a couple of times when I was in Edenvale and spoke to me and Mr de Waal but I don't recall what he said - of course it was obviously about the statements.

MR BRANDT: Now, Beetge, what was his role?  Would I be fair if I summarise that he was actually the scribe?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes and no, he did ask questions which were on the tape and he was - I would say, he was the runner rather than the scribe because he seemed to be running backwards and forwards between somebody and me and saying Clive said this and Clive said that and what do you say to that, so he came in and out of the room and he sat with Mr Deetleffs at times and so forth.

MR BRANDT: He played a very, very small part in this whole questioning process as far as the act of physical questioning is concerned?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I'd say so, yes.

MR BRANDT: So the bad guy in the scenery - as far as you are concerned, is Captain Deetleffs?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I don't want to make any personal remarks but ...[intervention]

MR BRANDT: No, you have made them Madam, that's why I'm going to take them up with you.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I've made them in writing, I don't want to say it here on the microphone.

MR BRANDT: Madam, it ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm doing - I'm saying that out of deference, if you want me to say what I think then I'll say it but I'm trying to be polite.

MR BRANDT: Can I ask you this Madam, did the demeanour of Captain Deetleffs at any stage, force you or compel you or contribute towards you telling any untruths?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Are you talking in terms of my final statement to him?

MR BRANDT: At all, at any stage.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, there were certain suggestions made and there were threats in the beginning that: "You must tell all" and: "We know everything" - if I look at this final statement on page 402, it doesn't reflect a lot of things that I did say and there are certain things there that I didn't.

MR BRANDT: Yes, but let's revert back to my question Madam - I'm trying to curtail the proceedings instead of going through each and every note I've made and just for clarity I'm going to repeat it,  has Captain Deetleffs in any way ...[End of tape 1(A), day 6 - no follow-on sound]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, it's difficult to say that - Mr Deetleffs didn't say to me: "You must write that" as the others did, perhaps it's correct that essentially - as I said in my testimony to Mr Bizos, essentially what is there is true - essentially ...[intervention]

MR BRANDT: So would I ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: There were certain things that I brought out that I didn't agree with.

MR BRANDT: Yes.  Madam, would I be fair to say then - please correct me if I'm wrong, that whatever your perception might have been or might be still with regards Captain Deetleffs, you stuck to your guns and you spoke the truth in essence?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: In essence, yes.

MR BRANDT: In fact, would I be fair to say that at the latter part of the questioning you became quite friendly with each other - obviously platonic, but you were civil, joking, friendly etc.?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I've looked at the tape yesterday which was shown and I looked at my notes and somewhere there was a carrot and then I looked at the detention file and I saw that Mr Deetleffs - I think it was on the Friday or the Saturday, had bought me some magazines so I was more amenable to him.
	He also said to me that I may not be charged - it was just after 12 o'clock on the 24th of April when we were talking towards the end of the tape and he said - I said to him: "What are they going to charge me with"? and he said: "It is not certain that they are going to charge you". 
	And on reflection last night I thought maybe he had intimated that to me at the beginning of the question and that was - questioning, maybe that was why I was more pleasant and more amenable to him, I'm not sure of that because I haven't got the tape, I've only got the end of the tape where he says: "It is not certain that they're going to charge you" but when I first went in he told me I was going to get 15 years, so the difference between 15 years and no charge obviously would put me in a better mood towards him.

MR BRANDT: Madam, I would be very much obliged if you could point out any tape where Captain Deetleffs said to you, you would go to jail for 15 years.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: He said that to me as I came in, he walked around the desk - I will never forget it, and he said: "You will get 15 years" or 10 years, I can't remember - 5 or 10 or 15 or whatever it was it was a horrendous statement.

MR BRANDT: Let me refresh your memory Mrs Derby-Lewis - and the court, if you would just grant me a moment to get that particular place, you asked Captain Deetleffs what was going to happen to your husband ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: When was that?

MR BRANDT: I'm trying to get the place now just to tell that - yes, it's on the first tape, the time is 2:16:49 ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: And what ...[intervention]
MR BRANDT
"What is going to happen"
...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, what date is that?

MR BRANDT: That's the 23rd of April.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.
MR BRANDT
"What is going to happen to Clive"?
and this is not a verbatim summary I'm giving you now, that's my notes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, what time was it?

MR BRANDT: 2:16:49.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: Question
"What is going to happen to Clive"?
and this interjection then from you:
"Quickly, tell me before this man comes back"
I don't know who this man is ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I think that was Mr Deetleffs - Mr Beetge.

MR BRANDT: Beetge?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: Question
"How long am I going to get"?
and he said:
"Well, it's not for me to say, perhaps 5, perhaps 6 years and a third off for good behaviour"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, 5 years in jail is 5 years in jail whether it's 5 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's been put to you - not the relative severity of the sentence, but it is being put to you that that is what was said.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all your answer should be.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman with respect, without wasting time, my learned friend ought to put also to the witness that at 2:35:24 - that same tape, she was told she will not get bail and she will get 5 years jail and her husband wouldn't get bail either.