Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

UNKNOWN: Therefore you are asking this Committee to grant you amnesty for your involvement in this whole incident as you have described to the Committee?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: If the Chair will just bear with me for a moment.   Let's just deal with the assault, when you entered this - let me rephrase this, were you at any stage aware of any assaults on the late Ms Khubeka?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, I was Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Can you just indicate to the Committee what your awareness was, what your observations were?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: What I remember is that a person had a black plastic object in his hand and on poking my head around the door of this room, on a couple of occasions, Capt Botha would inform me of what was going on, whether there was any information regarding further procedures that we would have to take and then I would withdraw, but on being outside the room, I heard blows.

UNKNOWN: You in other words are saying that you never actually physically saw anyone assaulting her, but it was quite clear from what you heard, that she was being assaulted during the interrogation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Then just a little bit of background for the Committee's sake, you came down, can you recall how long you were in the Durban area when this incident took place, for how many days had you been here already at that stage?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I recall, I had come down - there was the team working with the Intelligence component and there was a bigger team working on general information, I had come to visit both teams and as far as I can recall, I had been in the area for a couple of days with the other team.

UNKNOWN: You were however, not directly involved with this operation of Capt Botha at all, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Your black members of Vlakplaas, the askaris, where were they put up, where did they stay?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Generally the black members stayed at the Dog Unit and also the white members stayed at the Dog Unit at C.R. Swart Square.

UNKNOWN: Just for the assistance of the Committee, Sgt Joe Coetzer was what they would have referred to as the Officer in Charge of the three black members referred to in this application which would be Dube, Radebe and Mbane, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Joe Coetzer was the white team leader and the black team leader was Warrant Officer Radebe.  That is of this specific team.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Merwe.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Baker, as I understand it, Mr Eugene de Kock became the Commander of Vlakplaas round or about July of 1986, would that be correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, as far as I know, it was in 1985.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, 1985, yes.  And he was still the Commander of the C1 Unit, Vlakplaas, in 1987?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Who was his second in command?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I was second in command, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And was there a third in command?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: There were other officers, but at that stage the command structure was such that he was overall in command, and I was his second in command, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Second in command?    Can I ask you whether you recall Mr Frank McCarter being a member of Vlakplaas in 1987?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you just repeat that name please, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: I am going to spell it, Mr Frank M-c-C-a-r-t-e-r.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And Mr Rosslee, R-o-s-s-l-e-e?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is also correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Ramatala, R-a-m-a-t-a-l-a?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And Mr Maluleka, M-a-l-u-l-e-k-a?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: The reason why I am asking you this is to ask you this following question, and that is can you recall, you say that there were two teams, there was the bigger team and then the team consisting of the three gentlemen that are involved in this amnesty application in Durban at the time of the Khubeka incident?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can you recall whether these persons that I mentioned to you, were also here at the time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that Mr McCarter was here with the team, I wouldn't know who all the members of his team were at that stage, but they could have been.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  And you stated that you slept or you stayed at the Dog Unit at C.R. Swart Square or the team stayed there?

CHAIRPERSON: He said generally they would stay there.

MR VISSER: Yes, so generally you would stay there.  Can you remember at this particular time of the Khubeka incident, where you had slept?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I slept at the Dog Unit and on this particular day, I had gone down to speak to Col Taylor and to discuss the teams and their deployment and I slept that night at the facility at Winkelspruit.

MR VISSER: Can I ask you this, would it be fair to say that there was a lot of violence in the Durban area in 1987?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would you remember whether you had been to Durban in 1987 on more than one occasion?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I will tell you why, because in another incident which had, which was dealt with in November last year, here in Durban, before his Lordship, Justice Wilson, that is the matter if Sipho Stanley Bhila, sorry Mr Chairman, I didn't notice that you were talking to somebody, S-i-p-h-o Stanley Bhila, the evidence was by Mr McCarter that a team from Vlakplaas had come down to Durban on the 10th of February and stayed until the 27th of February, 17 odd days?  Would you know about that, can you recall it today?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I cannot recall it.  Teams were sent down on a regular basis, I know, because of the situation prevailing in Port Natal.

MR VISSER: All right, well, then just through you to inform the Committee, you don't necessarily have to reply to this, I can tell you that from the evidence and what was put there, Mr Radebe was also here during that period of time, the 10th to the 27th of February.  As I say, if you cannot remember, I am just informing the Committee through you.   Mr Baker, you heard the evidence of the other applicants, Botha, Wasserman, du Preez and van der Westhuizen, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is there any material aspect of their evidence with which you did not agree?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as the sleeping aspects are concerned, I recall that Joe Coetzer and the team went back to C.R. Swart that evening after this unfortunate incident.

MR VISSER: Would you recall who of the Vlakplaas persons all went back to the C.R. Swart Dog Unit, perhaps I could make it easier by asking you the reverse.  Can you recall today whether any of the members, apart from yourself, stayed at Winkelspruit on that fateful evening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: They all went back, it was only myself that stayed Mr Chairman.  That is my recollection.

MR VISSER: You see, because on behalf of Mr Mbane it has been stated and it has been put to the witnesses that he slept there that evening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: My recollection is that they all went back, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, be that as it may, assuming for a moment that you might be mistaken, and that he might have slept there, that is Mr Jimmy Mbane, what is your recollection of someone sleeping right in front of the store room door where Ms Khubeka was being interrogated?