Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

UNKNOWN: Did you report to Mr Burger that Peaches had become sympathetic towards Mr Omar and it was for that reason that he could no longer be trusted to be involved in a plan to eliminate Mr Omar?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that, it is possible.  I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: Why is it possible?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot remember, it is possible that I said that but I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: You must clearly remember what the reasons were for terminating the project.

MR VAN ZYL: Please Sir, it's 12 years ago, I cannot remember it, it was not important to me and even today I do not see it as important, those finer details of discussions that had taken place between Peaches and myself.

UNKNOWN: No, but Mr van Zyl, if Peaches had become sympathetic towards Mr Omar and for that reason he could no longer be used, you would hardly have left the Makarov in his possession.

MR VAN ZYL: I received an instruction that Peaches had to be told to destroy the Makarov and the powder and ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Sorry, did that order come from Mr Burger?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  So if Mr Burger thought that Peaches had become sympathetic towards Mr Omar, he would hardly have told you that you can leave the Makarov in Peaches' possession.

MR VAN ZYL: You can ask him that yourself.

UNKNOWN: Answer the question, it's a logical proposition.

MR VAN ZYL: The fact of the matter is what is logical for me unfortunately is not logical for you and vice versa.  The fact of the matter is that that is how it happened and you want me to answer the questions or give you the answers that you want.  I unfortunately cannot do this, I can only testify about what I can remember and what I experienced.  I really cannot go any wider than that.

UNKNOWN: Just for purposes of the record go to page 148 of bundle A ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, I think this is a long five minutes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, this is the very last question.  	That's Mr Burger's application for amnesty.  He says, page 148
"The plan to eliminate Mr Omar could eventually not be executed due to the fact that the Coloured person who should have helped Mr van Zyl in this regard, later appeared to be unreliable and also sympathetic towards Mr Omar.  Indeed this person, according to information that we had received, had taken no steps to execute the plan to eliminate Mr Omar."
Is that statement correct?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot comment on that, but in terms of what I experienced, this statement is not correct.  But this is a statement that you will have to make to Mr Burger.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, this will be an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We'll take a 20 minute adjournment for tea.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz.

UNKNOWN: (cont)
	Mr van Zyl, we know that one of the methods that could be used by the CCB was intimidation, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: After Adv Omar had his heart attack, apart from the steps that you've referred to already in relation to the plan to eliminate him, was any plan set in motion to intimidate him or any members of his family?

MR VAN ZYL: Not that I know of.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware of the existence of a plan to kidnap the Omar's daughter?

MR VAN ZYL: Not at all.

UNKNOWN: So if such a plan existed you would not know if it was part of the CCB strategy, you can only say that as far as you know in relation to Region 6 and your activities, you were not aware of that plan?

MR VAN ZYL: I was not aware of it.

UNKNOWN: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that Mr Kahanovitz.
	If there was such a plan would you not be upset that you were unaware of it, seeing that the Omar project was your project as such?  Wouldn't you expect ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: Let me put it this way, Mr Chairperson, today is the first time that I've ever heard of such a thing.  If you ask me today whether I would have been upset, no I would not have been upset about it.  I'm glad that I'm finished with the things of 1989, so no.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, that plan, was it at that time?

UNKNOWN: It was shortly after Adv Omar had his heart attack that information was received of a plan to kidnap his daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Now in 1989, what was the average monthly turnover at Incom Investigations?

MR VAN ZYL: I can't say, maybe in the region of R2-3 000 a month.

UNKNOWN: Did it not increase at all as time progressed?  During the course of 1989.

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: Because your version has been that you got to a certain point where the income that you were earning from the investigation agency was such that you could afford to dispense with your CCB activities.

MR VAN ZYL: I think it was more a case of me seeing the potential in the business that my salary could be covered.  At that stage I did have one person working for me, Ben van Zyl, and his salary was paid from the business.  That was the income.  You must remember that after that, late in October I resigned, and in November I was actively busy in the business.  December which was a holiday period.  January/February I was arrested and then everything came to a halt.  So it was not a good business at that stage.

UNKNOWN: Now did - just to remind the Committee, Incom was the name of the investigation agency that you started at the time, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: How many bank accounts were you operating at that time?

MR VAN ZYL: One.

UNKNOWN: Your personal account and your business account was the same account.

MR VAN ZYL: I think it was too different accounts.

UNKNOWN: Right.  At what bank was your personal account?

MR VAN ZYL: At ABSA bank, if I'm not mistaken.

UNKNOWN: Maybe?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, it could be.  Or Standard Bank, I don't know.  I can tell you where I am now and how many accounts I have.  It is 12 years ago, it's irrelevant.  I don't know where it was.

UNKNOWN: You can't remember where you banked.  And Incom?

MR VAN ZYL: The same thing, maybe at ABSA or maybe at Standard.

UNKNOWN: So it's one of the two.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What branches?

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I object to this.  What is the relevance of this question?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz can tell us.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, there's evidence about money, money that was received and for what purpose it may or my not have been used for and also it relates to Mr van Zyl's personal gain from his activities in the CCB, and the question in the Act as to the person's motive.  If we can get clear evidence about how much money he was making from his sideline while he was in the CCB, that might be useful just to get a sense of what the business' turnover was.

MR MARTINI: But he's given the turnover Mr Commissioner, R2-3 000 per month.  He's given the explanation and he says then it was Xmas, then he was arrested in January and February, so he's given the answer.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it's always very useful to test what a witness says against the actual documents.  I don't need to accept what he says.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but do you think the bank would give you information about what the state of the account was 12 years ago?

UNKNOWN: The TRC could get that information if they wanted it, or we could ask for a subpoena.  I'm just trying first to establish where those accounts area, we can then make a decision as to whether we want to or need to subpoena them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
	Okay, you can remember that you were at ABSA or Standard Bank, I assume you can remember which branch you banked at.

MR VAN ZYL: I can't remember that either.

UNKNOWN: You can't.  No, but Mr van Zyl, that can't possibly be so.

MR VAN ZYL: Many things are possible and that's also possible.  Go and look for it.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been in Johannesburg?