Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

CHAIRPERSON: That is why they interrogated him, otherwise they would not have taken him to Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  Grahamstown is in our division.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was he arrested?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Because he exceeded his banning order.  And afterwards we had the information that he was involved ...

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me he surely had a file prior to that arrest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would that file have been kept?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: In East London.

CHAIRPERSON: And if Port Elizabeth Security Police were interested in Mr Biko, would they not have got copies of the contents of that file from East London?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, we only open a file where he is involved in the particular area of ours, but the main file would be kept in East London, it is a sub file that is kept with us.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as the Security Police in Port Elizabeth was concerned, they were looking for the author of that damaging document, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They wanted him in detention, they wanted to question him etc?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And probably to obtain evidence so that he could be criminally prosecuted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, would the Security Police in Port Elizabeth not have obtained copies of the documents in that file in East London in preparation for this task of obtaining evidence and interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe they would have.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not particularly sure of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I am not sure, but they would surely have done so if Mr Biko was arrested.  Let's assume that he was in King William's Town and his case was proven and we found that Mr Biko was responsible for the drafting of the pamphlet, this would have surely gone through to East London, there would have been a discussion with members of the Security Branch there, and the necessary information would have been given out.
	They would have arrested him.  That is what I believe would have happened, because after Mr Biko was arrested and members of East London arrived there, and had discussions with Goosen, I was not present.

GEORGE BIZOS: In answer to the Judge's question, I want to ask you was there any difference between the file arrangements between Port Elizabeth, the Headquarters of the Security Police and Cradock and the Security Police in Port Elizabeth and East London, was there any difference in procedure?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Why Cradock, where does Cradock fit in?

GEORGE BIZOS: You are uncomfortable with it, but please try to answer the question, because I am going to suggest to you that the procedure must have been the same.  Mr Goniwe's file in Port Elizabeth was a duplicate of what had transpired in Cradock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Oh, I understand now.  Cradock is part of Port Elizabeth's Branch and the suspects are in Port Elizabeth's area.  The file that was in Cradock, would also be in Port Elizabeth.
	But now we have two divisions that we are talking about.  East London is a division on its own and Port Elizabeth is a division on its own.  The suspects of East London would have their own files and we would just keep a sub file if the suspect is active in Port Elizabeth.  That was the administration.

GEORGE BIZOS: We understand, now I understand that.

ADV DE JAGER: Any copies would be freely available to you from the one division to the other division?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You had already from the 18th of August to the 6th of September, enough time to get any information that you wanted on Mr Biko from East London?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would believe they did.  I did not, I don't know if Siebert had asked.

GEORGE BIZOS: It raises another question, if you didn't know - what were you doing in the interrogation room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I was saying previously, because I was responsible for black affairs, and I was instructed by Goosen to be present at the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Biko, I am sure, was formerly classified as Black, isn't it.  He would have fallen under your category?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is true.  His organisation, the Black Power organisation.

GEORGE BIZOS: In your application, you listed the organisations that you were concerned with on page 6?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: And in the trials that emerged in this area?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And BPC and SASM and SASO appear on a number of occasions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to suggest to you that the Security Police well knew the attitude of Mr Biko to interrogation and I am going to read to you something that he had written and which was published and ask you whether you knew about this before you dealt with him on the morning of the 6th?
	He wrote:  You are either alive and proud or you are dead, and when you are dead, you don't care anyway.  Your method of death can be a politicising thing, so if you can overcome the personal fear of death, which is highly irrational thing you know, then you are on your way.  In interrogation the same sort of thing applies.
	I was talking to this policeman and I told him, if you want us to make any progress, the best thing is for us to talk.  Don't try any form of rough stuff because it just won't work.  If they talk to me well, I am bound to be effected by them as human beings, but the moment they adopt rough stuff, they are imprinting on my mind that they are police and I only understand one form of dealing with police, and that is to be as unhelpful as possible.  So I button up.
	Did you read that before you dealt with Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, may I just have a look at what publication is it?

GEORGE BIZOS: I will give a reference to the Committee in due course, I just have this passage without a footnote at the moment, but assume for a moment that it was published, and the source will be given.  Did you read anything like that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I cannot remember if I read anything like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: But does it accord with the picture that you had of Mr Biko's attitude to interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Does it accord with what we have in Mr Siebert's evidence, that Mr Biko would be a tough nut to crack?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And didn't this whole incident that lasted no more than 12 minutes, was it not anything more than to for the Security Police to establish who was boss, right at the outset?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, that is not the way I interpret it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, will you agree that not affording him the simple courtesy of allowing him to sit on a chair, fits in with this spirit of the Security Police to Mr Biko if not to black people generally?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to deal without referring to the details again, with a meeting on the Saturday morning.  You and your colleagues at the time, felt that you had not done anything wrongful ...

CHAIRPERSON: Meeting on the Saturday morning where ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Where the perjered version was established.  At that stage, you felt that you hadn't beaten Mr Biko up, you had done him no wrong, that you were not really responsible for the miserable condition he was in, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know, we must assume that the ordinary laws of logic apply even to the conduct of Security Policemen and senior ones at that.
	If you felt that you had done nothing wrong, why did you bother to hold such a extensive meeting in order to make up a perjered version?