Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MR MGXAJI: Your situation, you were in town with Ndumiso and Mundla according to you, Mzwandile arrives, he says I have seen Mr Mapipa's van and Unit leaving town and you were in town, in other words, they were going away from you?  You wasted no more minute, jumped into the van.  You have said, you wanted to attack them, you were not under attack yourselves.  My question is did you have any reason to believe that Mr Mapipa's van which was going the opposite direction towards his home, was to attack you at the moment?

CHAIRPERSON: But he never said that, Mr Mgxaji.  That is not his testimony.  He never said that when he rode behind the victim's van, that there was imminent prospects of an attack on him.

MR MGXAJI: It is exactly on that score that I want to elicit from him how on earth could he believe that they were to be attacked when a man driving his van, is going away from them.

CHAIRPERSON: On your argument, then he must be guilty of murder?

MR MGXAJI: I will submit Mr Chairperson, is also putting the cart before the horse.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not putting the cart before the horse, he has pleaded guilty.  He has said here that he is guilty of murder.  He is not saying that he is pleading not guilty or he is not guilty and he acted in self-defence.

MR MGXAJI: I am not asking him about his guiltiness of murder or not, I am asking about what led him to commit murder.  I think that is what this Committee is interested in.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then get down to that.  It doesn't help us to determine anything by knowing whether the attack was imminent or not.

MR MGXAJI: Judge, the applicant says we murdered Mapipa for a political objective.  His Lordship is here to consider that application as to whether in terms of the Amnesty Act, it accords well with a political objective and one makes that assessment from the circumstances appearing on the testimony of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgxaji, I don't want to be rude to you, but I don't need you to tell me what I am here for.  I am just trying to put into perspective what your job is, without telling you that.  In these hearings, applicants generally come and say that I am guilty of murder and I am looking for amnesty.   If you are opposing it on behalf of families, on one or other basis, let us get to the crux of the matter.

MR MGXAJI: Mr  Guleni, at the time that you chased Mr Mapipa's van, is it correct that you were not under attack?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir.

MR MGXAJI: Now you say you caught up with him, overtook him.  When you did so, where were you on the direction towards Etombo/Umtata direction?

FUNDISELE GULENI: In Mampube.

MR MGXAJI: And on overtaking it, were you attacked?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We were not attacked.

MR MGXAJI: With whom were you in Mzwandile's 4x4?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was myself and Mundla and Mzwandile and Mr Sgotyana, it was the four of us.

MR MGXAJI: On overtaking it, who fired at it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We all fired.

CHAIRPERSON: Who fired first?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Ndumiso fired first.

MR MGXAJI: Did you see where exactly in the car, he fired?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I could not see.

MR MGXAJI: Who followed Ndumiso in firing?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I cannot recall, but we all fired.

MR MGXAJI: After Ndumiso fired, what was your observation on Mr Mapipa's car?

FUNDISELE GULENI: There was hardly a split of a second when, after the first shot, you know we all immediately fired.

MR MGXAJI: Where did you direct your firing, in the car?

FUNDISELE GULENI: In the direction of the car.

MR MGXAJI: When you fired, what political goal did you seek to be realised?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We wanted to counter the attack on us or on the organisation.

MR MGXAJI: It is correct that nobody gave you time when that alleged attack would take place on you, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir.

MR MGXAJI: And when you fired at Mr Mapipa, there was no determined attack sought to be thawed, that is also correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I had already said that we were trying to prevent a possible attack from them.

MR MGXAJI: Now, you say in your statement
"... one Mapipa was fatally wounded."
	When did you realise that he was fatally wounded?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I saw him when we got there at the scene, when Mzwandile was enquiring as to where the others were and when he was finishing him off with the firearm that he had.

MR MGXAJI: The one who was admitted to hospital, do you know who he was?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I do not know that one.

MR MGXAJI: From where did you get to know that there was one who was admitted in hospital?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I heard the people talking about that, after the incident.

MR MALUSI: Mr Chairperson, may I be excused for a moment, I need to attend to a call of nature.   Thank you.

MR MGXAJI: Excuse me sir, I did not hear your answer, may you do me a favour by repeating it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I got that information after the next day, I got that from the people who were talking, saying that one person was admitted or taken to the hospital.

MR MGXAJI: Do you know or did you get to know who that person was?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I did not get to know that person.

MR MGXAJI: I tell you it was Mbuyiselo Mkunwana from Nzimbeni.   Would you dispute that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I cannot dispute that.

MR MGXAJI: I further tell you that Nkosipendule Mseswa was another person who was with Mr Mapipa, are you in a position to dispute that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No.

MR MGXAJI: And further that these two, Mbuyiselo and Nkosipendule, were local students at Port St Johns, would you dispute that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I will not dispute that, but I did not know them, I was never with them at school.

MR MGXAJI: Mr Guleni, as a trained person, before you get to attack or ambush, you first check the identity of your target, do you agree with me?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MGXAJI: When you attacked Mr Mapipa's motor vehicle, you did not do anything to ascertain with whom he was in that motor vehicle, am I right?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MGXAJI: You agree with me that the men who were with Mr Mapipa in the van, were not APLA members, nor Third Force Units as Mzwandile advised you, do you agree with me that those people had no reason to be shot at by you?  There was no political reason to be shot at by you?  What do you say to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, there was political motivation to that, a reason.

MR MGXAJI: Let me hear you sir.

FUNDISELE GULENI: First of all, that is not the very first encounter ...

MR MGXAJI: No, I am asking about - you directed your firing to particular targets, let's deal with those targets.

FUNDISELE GULENI: We knew that that car was always used by Mr Mapipa and the people who were - rather his bodyguard, and were APLA members.  We were made to believe that if we were told that they were coming from that place, those were the very same people who were with him, who were APLA cadres.

MR MGXAJI: You have just said the guys that were with Mr Mapipa, were alive and are from Port St Johns, and were students?  You did not ascertain that they were Third Force members or APLA members.  On what basis would you say they were APLA members or Third Force members?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We were of the belief that they were APLA members because they would use that car, and all the time they were threatening people and as we were told that they were going to attack, we really believed those rumours because we thought that those were the people at that particular time, in that particular car, those were the people who were coming to attack.

MR MGXAJI: Even though you had no basis for that belief, you still maintain it was a correct belief?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Will you please repeat your question sir?