Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: I'm sure being an adult of your age - a White gentleman in South Africa, you do know that medicine, tranquillisers can have overdoses which become poisonous, you know that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I understand it to be like that.

MR PHOSA: A little before, the police had been accused of using poison on this very self same Mthimkhulu, isn't that so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Wouldn't you have said: "Wait a minute, is this not going to be poison again, what is it you are using"?  Didn't you want to find out?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, the thought never crossed my mind, I - if we wanted to actually poison him again, we would have done it if that was the argument.  If we wanted to eliminate him by poisoning him, we would have used poison but that in fact was not our plan.  It was not our plan to poison the two gentlemen, the plan was to kill them by shooting them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not poison them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I didn't have poison and didn't know where to obtain poison.

CHAIRPERSON: But in the Kondile case you had obtained poison from allegedly Loot and Neethling, through Coetzee, hadn't you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] knock-out drops - he met you with them.  It was arranged through Brigadier Schoon, wasn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is the allegation made by Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: But did he not meet you at Komatipoort or thereabouts?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: While you had driven up from the Eastern Cape?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So, it must have been arranged, mustn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, did you meet by chance, was he just sitting by the side of the road?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, this is not what I'm saying Sir.  We did make arrangements to meet but there were no previous arrangements that he would bring these things with, that was not arranged.

CHAIRPERSON: But he quite by chance did?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is what he alleges.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he or did he not bring them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He did bring it with but I do not know exactly what he brought with.

CHAIRPERSON: So don't say: "That's what he said", that's what in fact happened.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is what happened but if he referred to it as a knock-out drop, I cannot testify to that because I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew he had access to these things?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not know whether he had access ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He produced it.  Where do you think he got them from if he didn't have access to them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He must have had access but I do not know where - where he had access to, I do not know from where he obtained it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew he could so you had potential source, that's all I'm putting to you.

MR PHOSA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	You see, even apart from what has just been put to you and if you have conceded, you know you yourself were saying: "If we had wanted to poison him, we would have done it", do you remember saying that?  Do you remember saying that a while ago?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes Sir, I did say within the framework of your question that: "If we wanted to poison him, we would have done that, we would not have served other drugs but our decision was to shoot them".

MR PHOSA: Mr van Rensburg, if I say to you: "You could have ...[inaudible], you would have said to me: "We can't go to heaven".  You were telling this court that it was within your means - you could have poisoned him.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is not what I'm saying, it is also not what I have meant by saying that.

MR PHOSA: Was there a Jan du Preez, a Mr Jan du Preez in this force - in your branch?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: Was he known to Mr Dirk Coetzee?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Are you aware of anything that has been said by Mr Dirk Coetzee regarding Mr du Preez and your branch and Mthimkhulu?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: What are you aware of?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If I remember correctly ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: Yes sorry, if you remember correctly?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If I remember correctly, Mr Coetzee alleges that Mr du Preez said that I and a team of mine abducted Mr Mthimkhulu and killed him.

MR PHOSA: Well I'm referring to what appears on page 76, where he says
"Jan du Preez told me at a later stage that they poisoned this guy who ended up in hospital at Groote Schuur, who did not die".
Didn't you hear that one?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: So, it goes beyond just Mr Mthimkhulu's allegation, there is also a member of the police force who also claims that you people say you poisoned Mr Mthimkhulu, you see that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I see that.

MR PHOSA: And what do you say to that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I deny that, I don't have any knowledge of this.

MR PHOSA: Well, you can't deny it, you'd say you don't know if the others did it.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's exactly it, I don't know who did if it was done.

MR PHOSA: Did you ever speak to Mr Coetzee, Dirk Coetzee and invite him to come to your branch in Port Elizabeth in 1981 - late in 1981?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not invite him to come, he asked if he could come here.

MR PHOSA: You asked?  Did you ask?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He had asked, Mr Coetzee had asked if he could come here.

MR PHOSA: What for?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: To come and work here, to come and see whether returned trained cadres were here.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, but he says according to what appears on here on 76, he was asked - he was called to go to Port Elizabeth to help in a matter.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is what he says.

MR PHOSA: And what do you say?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I say that he had requested or asked whether he could come and assist us here.

MR PHOSA: Anyway, is there anything you know of  - as between you and Mr Coetzee, that would make him say incorrect things about you?  Have you ever quarrelled?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, we never quarrelled about anything.

MR PHOSA: Has there ever been a problem between Mr Bobelo and your branch?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not that I'm aware of.

MR PHOSA: To the extent that they may be lying - if they are lying, you don't know why they're lying?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Who now, Mr Bobelo and Mr Coetzee?  No, I'm not sure, I don't know.

MR PHOSA: Just in conclusion, I wasn't very clear as to when precisely Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka were killed.  You see the first evening you couldn't do it, the next evening was it done?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And then the remains were - they were burnt on the same night?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: Then only the next evening were they thrown in the water?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, the next morning - the remains.

MR PHOSA: Oh the next morning.  So 14th, they were taken, 15th, they were killed, on the 16th the remains were thrown down.  And as they were burning there - by the way you said for how long was it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think approximately six hours is what I said, I think that is what I said.

MR PHOSA: No fire can burn that long, it means you kept replenishing the wood to make sure it burns?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.