Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

JUDGE MGOEPE: Isn't is so that in fact the askaris who 
would normally be killed, would be those who were regarded 
as being a risk to the security forces?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Those who were not regarded as a risk, those 
who were in the eyes of the security branch were reliable 
wouldn't be killed.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It's only those who would be regarded as 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 127

UNKNOWN: being a risk in the sense of being double agent, that will 
be killed?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And you are saying that in your view, rightly 
or wrongly, the deceased in this case fell into that 
category for those who were a risk?

UNKNOWN: According to the way I saw it, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it not correct that they would also be 
killed if they were a danger to the unit in that if they 
were going to expose the unit?  In the operations of the 
unit they would be killed.

UNKNOWN: Yes, sir.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members.  You must 
have covered my area.

ADV DE JAGER: Just to get some clarification here.  The two 
of you never drove in the same vehicle from Vereeniging to 
Penge Mine?

UNKNOWN: No.  So I don't know what happened or what was 
said in that vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say that when you arrived there the 
chair had already been prepared, it was at a mine at some 
kind of excavation there.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in command there at Penge Mine?

UNKNOWN: Warrant Officer Snor Vermeulen and Warrant 
Officer Lionel Snyman.

ADV DE JAGER: They did not accompany you from Vereeniging, 
they didn't drive with you from Vereeniging, you just found 
them there?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I found them there.
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ADV DE JAGER: 128

ADV DE JAGER: So could we then assume from the fact that 
preparations had already been made, that they must have 
received instructions where you were not present?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 107, Captain, the second, first and 
second lines, you talked about when you arrived at Penge 
Mine, 
		"The askari was handcuffed to a pole.   We then 
continued drinking."
where did you start drinking on this day?

UNKNOWN: If I remember correctly, Chairperson, De Kock 
and I stopped somewhere beforehand and we bought beer or 
something.

JUDGE WILSON: Where?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember specifically.

JUDGE WILSON: And who provided the drink now?

UNKNOWN: We had bought this liquor.

JUDGE WILSON: You bought some beer which you drank and then 
you bought some more you brought along for a party.  Is that 
the position when you were going to kill the man?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we bought a lot of alcohol, of drink.

JUDGE WILSON: And of what sort?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember, I think it was beer, but I 
can't remember. It might have been, there might have been 
strong drink as well.

JUDGE WILSON: And you all drank there before you killed 
this man?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: Was this man questioned at all in your 
presence?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, no, not where I was present, but 
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HASSAN MALL: 129

UNKNOWN: I can remember when we were drinking there, it was a whole 
crowd of us. I think that De Kock and one or two others 
spoke to the man.  He was tied up quite a distance away from 
us.  If I can sketch the scene, if you enter the mine then 
there is a building and lean-to's on the left-hand side and 
I - that was Snyman and Vermeulen's base where they slept.  
Because they arrived there a couple of days before us.  We 
sat under the lean-to there and we made a fire and the 
askari was tied up quite some distance away from us, tied up 
to this pole.  And not within earshot, and I think De Kock 
and one or two of the others spoke to the man at some stage, 
but I was not present during any conversation.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have a braai there?

UNKNOWN: No, sir.

HASSAN MALL: The man was not questioned in your presence?

UNKNOWN: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: The second point I want to ask you about, is 
you told us in your evidence that you found this incident 
"totally unacceptable".

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you ask for a transfer from Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: At a later stage I ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: After this incident that you found totally 
unacceptable?

UNKNOWN: Not directly afterwards, but at a later stage I 
was transferred to another unit.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes but why didn't you, if it was totally 
unacceptable, this sort of behaviour, why didn't you ask for 
a transfer?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I was part of an elite unit.  It 
was at that stage seen as an elite unit in the security 
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JUDGE WILSON: 130

UNKNOWN: police. I associated myself with the fact that the man was 
being killed or was killed, but as I testified already, they 
could have done it differently.  They could have, for 
instance, blindfolded the man or shot him from behind, and 
it worried me that he was actually looking straight at them 
when they killed him.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it more important to you be part of this 
so-called elite unit than to do what you regarded as morally 
right?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I believed that somebody had to do 
this dirty work to prop-up the Government of the day and to 
combat ANC and PAC terrorists.  Somebody had to do it. If 
everybody had asked for transfers who was to do this work, 
and that's why I thought I would stay there.

JUDGE WILSON: So although it was totally unacceptable to 
you, you would have us believe that, you nevertheless 
thought you would stay there to do this sort of work.  Is 
that what you are telling us?

UNKNOWN: Yes, sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But would it have been safe for you to ask 
for a transfer immediately after this incident?

UNKNOWN: No, Sir, I have testified about that as well, 
because then the chances were that I could just one night be 
shot through a window in my home.  The issue here was not 
the colour of your skin, but if you were a threat for such a 
unit in the security police, the chances were that you could 
also be eliminated, anybody could be eliminated.  I was 
scared, I was afraid of De Kock.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz,  I know you have already testified 
that it was very difficult to question orders of your 
superiors. In this case you had taken quite a major leap by 
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SISI KHAMPEPE: 131

UNKNOWN: asking De Kock where you were going to on arrival at De Deur 
police station, and after seeing there the askari getting 
into Mr Brits' car, did you not ask for more details about 
what the askari was going to be questioned about?

UNKNOWN: I did ask De Kock where we were going, because 
I was driving the car and I had to know where to drive to. I 
can't specifically remember what De Kock and I discussed, it 
is a long time ago, but that's why I say I believe that this 
askari was a double agent.  I can't say specifically what I 
asked him and what he said, because I can't remember.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But was the askari already tied at that time?

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So it was not yet apparent that he was going 
to be killed?

UNKNOWN: No, I only saw that as Boschkop.  That is where 
I made the conclusion.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you earlier testified that you were 
not one of De Kock's confidantes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, during the first time I testified I 
explained that I had initially been taking De Kock around.  
No not today, but earlier on.  Later on I worked away from 
him.

ADV DE JAGER: I do not think it is very clear whether or 
not you are expressing yourself correctly or whether it is 
the interpretation, I just want to put something to you, as 
I understand your evidence.  You associated yourself with 
the fact that people had to be killed during the struggle in 
which you were involved between the liberation movements and 
the police?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.