Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR WILLS: And what - did he have any political affiliation?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: He was an ANC supporter.

MR WILLS: Now before we get off the meeting, do you know what was discussed at the meeting that Nkosi Hlengwa called?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: They were discussing about area issued and also that they were ANC supporters in the area.  That's when I left the meeting.

MR WILLS: And was anything said about what should be done about the ANC supporters?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I didn't hear what decision was taken against ANC supporters, because I left the meeting before it was over.

MR WILLS: Right.  You say in another statement which you made to one of the TRC staff members, Deborah Quinn - I don't know how we can identify this as part of the record, Mr Chairperson, but I believe that everyone has a copy of it.  It's a statement taken by ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A.

MR WILLS: Exhibit A, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	You say there that Hlengwa said that everyone in the area had to join the IFP.  When did Hlengwa say this?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: He mentioned this when they were talking about ANC supporters.  They were complaining that ANC supporters are now in the area, and he said that people were not supposed to be ANC, but IFP.  And he said they should proceed, they shouldn't deal more about that, they should proceed talking about issues concerning the area.

MR WILLS: Okay.  You've said that you were involved in an attack on Master Shange's house, with a group of people, can you carry on from there?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.  When they arrived at Master's place, they didn't enter his house, they just fired gunshots and only to discover that the people who were there were no longer there, they've ran away to a nearby bush and others were asking as to what was happening.  They were also firing gunshots.  We scattered.  We all ran away and we scattered.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something?  You seem to be talking about two different groups of people firing gunshots, have I understood you correctly?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, when the other group was firing at Master's place and Master and his group also fired, so there were two groups firing at each other.

MR LAX: And then people ran away, and was that the end of that attack?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: After they scattered, myself and Mbali we left and we sought refuse because we didn't go to our places because we were scared.  I wasn't a supporter of IFP.  I told them I was going to work, but I wasn't going to work.
	I was going to look for ANC supporters so that I could join them and I'm with them.  I found them and I stayed with them.  They were in a forest.  We were not quite a number compared to IFP supporters, we decided to run away because we were scared that they were going to kill us.  We left for Umgubaba because we trusted that we were going to be safe there because at Umgubaba many people were ANC supporters.  We stayed at Umgubaba.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, just one point of clarification, when the group was called to go and attack Master Shange's group, did you accompany that group?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, I did.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you also intend to have the same purpose as them, of attacking Master Shange's place?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: No, I didn't have the same purpose because these people who were going to attack were my people, or in other words I belonged to them.

MR SIBANYONI: If you wouldn't heed the call to go and join them, what would have happened to you?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I believe I was going to be killed because in that area they didn't want comrades.  That's why we were going to attack this place.  That's why I decided to join them.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Wills, you may proceed.

MR WILLS: Thank you.
	You said that you went to Umgubaba because you were afraid that you were going to be killed and so the ANC group went to Umgubaba.  Now you mentioned in your statement that prior to that there was an attack on the ANC group in the forest, is that correct?

MR LAX: Won't you just refer us to where that is, Mr Wills, just for the record's sake.

MR WILLS: It's on page 2 of Exhibit A.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: When we arrived at Umgubaba, some of us left Umgubaba and went and stayed at Nkwale.  Our aim was to go back and attack so that we go back to our area and stay.

MR WILLS: Were you at any stage attacked while you were living in the forest or staying in the forest, by the IFP?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, we were attacked by the IFP while we were in the forest.

MR WILLS: And were there people injured or killed in that attack?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: It wasn't a single incident, I think two incidents occurred whilst we were in the forest.  In one incident two people died, in one, one person died.

MR WILLS: And you say in the one incident you reported the deaths of these people to the police on the Sunday, and that their bodies were only recovered the following Tuesday, is that right?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now you also say that while you were living in the forest, Master Shange used to supply you with food and arms and also give you training in the use of those firearms, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct, he used to help us with food and firearms and training us as well.

MR WILLS: Alright.  Then can you tell us about Mr Mtolo and what he did for you?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.  Mr Mtolo was the one person who used to help us, more especially with food if Master didn't supply us with food, because Master was staying far, he was staying at Umgubaba and Mr Mtolo was the one who used to take care of us, giving us food.  He was of a big help to use.

MR WILLS: And what happened to Mr Mtolo?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Attackers came in the morning.  He was from work, he was in the car.  They attacked where we were staying.  The people who were there ran away because the attackers were in a bigger number and he was from work.  They shot him.  He was in the car and they burnt the car.

MR WILLS: And he was killed?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, he was killed.

MR WILLS: So what was the purpose of these, of you living in the forest and getting trained to use firearms?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: The reason we were staying in the forest was because we've already left our places.  We didn't have place to stay because we were attacked in our places, we were scared.  We used to stay at Umgubaba, but then there we will share one house, 10 people sharing one house.  That's why we were then trained in the forest, so that we could go back and attack, so that we go back to our respective places.

MR WILLS: And sometime after the funeral, you say two weeks after the funeral - and I'm referring to page 4 of Exhibit A, you and seven, or a group of seven ANC people, including yourself, returned to your area, that is the Nkwale area, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us why you did this and what happened thereafter?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: When we left Umgubaba for Nkwale, the seven of us returned there because our aim was to launch an attack against IFP supporters, so that we could go back to our respective places.
	We went there on Sunday and then on Monday we decided that we should attack these people and we came up with a plan as to how to attack them in masses, so that they also run away to another place. We decided that the only place that we can get them in numbers was getting them in a bus, because that bus was boarded by IFP supporters.
	Then we decided that we were going to go and stop the bus and get inside the bus and remove females and when we remain with males we will attack the males or kill them.

MR WILLS: Okay.  You say that
"We decided"
Did anybody order you to do this attack, or to perform this act?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: We decided as a group, no-one told us.  We decided as a group, all of us, we agreed on one thing.