Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: Now, you see that only two visits are recorded on that card, the one on the 26th of January and the one on the 27th of January and you've told this Commission in your evidence in chief, that you went to Doctor Asvat on three occasions, when was the third occasion?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I went thrice, I'm very sure about that but I don't remember the date or the third occasion.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] the approximate time that you called on Doctor Asvat on the first occasion?

JERRY RICHARDSON: It was in the afternoon?

MR KADES: Late in the afternoon - after Mrs Sisulu had left?  Did you find a nurse in the surgery?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR KADES: ....[inaudible] do you recall what time you went to the surgery - the 27th of January, the day Doctor Asvat was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: It was in the afternoon as well because the treatment that he gave me - he was supposed to give it to me and I had to sleep immediately thereafter.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] precisely the time on the second occasion?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I do not remember the time but I think it was anywhere between 4 and 5.

MR KADES: Are you aware as to whether the late Doctor Asvat ever came to the house of Mrs Mandela to examine Stompie, either on the 29th or the 30th of December of 1988?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR KADES: Did you not see him at the house on the day after Stompie was assaulted together with the other boys?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

MR KADES: Were you ever present - either at the house or at the surgery of Doctor Asvat, when there was a row between himself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I wasn't present.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] by the police on the 9th of May of 1995, when Mr Moodley came to see you in jail at Leeuwkop, did he question you concerning your presence in the surgery of Doctor Asvat on the day that the doctor was killed - the 27th of January?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, Moodley never asked me anything about Doctor Asvat.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] Mr Hesslinga, did he ask you?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Nobody ever asked me about Doctor Asvat.

MR KADES: Did you make any payment to Doctor Asvat in respect of the medical attention that he had given you?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I didn't pay.

MR KADES: Why didn't you pay?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Mummy told me that I should tell him that I'd been referred by her.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] the murder of Doctor Asvat, did you come to the home of Doctor Asvat with Mrs Mandela to pay your respects to the family?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR KADES: Why didn't you tell anybody that you had been in Doctor Asvat's surgery that afternoon shortly before he was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I didn't notify Asvat's family - I'm the one who gave them the message.  I told Mummy as to what the doctor had said to me and that evening we went to Doctor Asvat's place and I told the Asvat family as to what had happened and I told them that we should pray so that the people get arrested.

MR KADES: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Miss Hassen?

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, Hasiena Hassen, I represent Charles Zwane also known as Bobo.
 Mr Richardson, I just want to clarify one aspect - my client Bobo denied here at this Commission that he was a member of the Mandela United Football Club and now after hearing your evidence, he denies that he had a discussion with you and Sonwabo at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, what do you have to say to this?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I'll say what I know - Bobo called me - he sent his attorney to come and fetch me on death row, to go and give evidence and I refused because Bobo had 39 counts against him and he did not want to sit down with me and tell me as to what he had done because I believed that he had been helped by somebody to commit those crimes.  He never played football but he was an MK member.

MS HASSEN: I'm talking here now about when you were released - it was after your release and apparently this happened after three policemen had been killed and this discussion occurred Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's home, do you recall this incident?  Do you have any comment on this?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember anything of that sort.

MS HASSEN: ...[inaudible] confirm that Charles or Bobo was not a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I never included him in my line-up.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Richardson, no further questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS HASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Makanjee?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, Sanjay Makanjee for Mr Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Lerothodi Ikaneng.
 Just to clarify something, both Mr - you described the assault on Lerothodi Ikaneng and both Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono have said that they only participated in this assault because they were forced by you to do so, can you confirm that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is not true.

MR MAKANJEE: And one more question, you testified on the - you gave evidence regarding the assault on Mr Ikaneng but you failed to mention your reason behind the assault, can you clarify that for me?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't listen to yourself when the interpretation goes on, just listen to the interpreter and give your answer.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Ikaneng knows why he was being assaulted and I also knew why he was being assaulted, he had been branded or labelled as an impimpie.

MR MAKANJEE: Who labelled Mr Ikaneng as an impimpie?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Mummy.

MR MAKANJEE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Jordi?

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, I appear for the Sono family ...[inaudible] family and the Chile family.
 Mr Richardson, am I correct in understanding that the Mandela United Football Club never really was closed down as such?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Even before I answer that question, I want to tell the Commission that you once came to see me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] please, just answer ...[inaudible]  Do you or don't you know whether the football club was completely closed down, yes or no?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR JORDI: So, there's no truth in the statement that sometime in April or May 1987, the club was closed down and the relevant books and documentation were destroyed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, that is not true.

MR JORDI: In your statement that you gave to the TRC on the 28th of July 1997, you said that Guybon Kubheka, Ronnie Shoes, Sekekune and Sizwe Sithole were involved in the beatings of Lolo and Sibuniso whilst they were in the custody of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, can you tell me - do you know whether any other people were involved in that beating?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, there were people who were involved.

MR JORDI: Who else, other than Guybon, Shoes or Sizwe?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I do not remember their names but we were more than that.

MR JORDI: ...[inaudible] Do I understand you correctly, were Lolo and Sibuniso detained in the garage at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's home?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR JORDI: When you arrived back from the Protea Police Station - after you were released on or about the 24th of November 1988, you were accused of being an informer and an enquiry was conducted as to whether in fact you were an informer and you've mentioned that you were very frightened, can you tell me was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela aware of the enquiry into your status? - as to whether or not you ...[inaudible]

JERRY RICHARDSON: When Paul Erasmus told Mummy that I was an informer, I heard with my own ears, nobody else told me.

CHAIRPERSON: One minute left.