Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-30

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct, I went to put it where I was supposed to put it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there a lot of people who were watching what was going on?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No, there was nobody or there weren't any people watching the incident or the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: When you referred earlier to 10 o'clock, was it 10 o'clock in the evening, at night?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: In the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: This circle in Xhaba Street, was that where people were normally executed?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was Mbuso taken specifically to that circle?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It just happened that we took him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the circle in the residential area, near to the houses?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any specific reason why you took him to the residential area and shot him in  public?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: The people were fighting or there was a fight at the time and the residents were inside their houses, they were not outside in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: But I assume that you could have killed him in a more secluded area, under less public circumstances where people would not have witnessed what was going on, not so?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: We were not going to be able to do that because the soldiers as well as the stability unit were in the area patrolling, they would probably have discovered us on our way out to that secluded area.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you for any reason want the public, the residents, to take notice that you were executing the policy of a killer will be killed?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No, that is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anyone of you ever charged for this incident and arrested?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: One assumes that there must have been people who had seen what was going on?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: It is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I can't understand that, it was 10 o'clock in the morning, it was in the residential area near to the houses and you arrive with the kombi and you take this person out, you assault him and you manhandled him and then he is shot with an AK47 rifle, why would people not have noticed this incident happening?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: There was a fight that had broken out and there was always gunfire all the time.  People were scared to venture out into the streets lest they find themselves victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you've got absolutely no idea what happened to the body after the shooting?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No, I don't because after we had shot him we sought cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mbuso have family in the township, in Thokoza?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a young person or what?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I've no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: But how would you - you know him, how would you describe him, was he about like you, your age or young than you or older than you?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: He was relatively tall.  I've got no clarity whether he was older than me or younger.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he was married or unmarried?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have parents living in the township, the family that you referred to earlier?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, he did have a family.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a mother and a father?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Could I ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Was that a question or were you  commenting?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm trying to find out whether Mbuso had family, you said yes he did have family in Thokoza and then I was trying to find out whether he was married or not and you said you didn't know about that, then I asked you whether he had possibly a mother or a father that lived in Thokoza.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, he did have parents.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they are still alive, the parents?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I've got a few aspects, some of which I've left out in evidence-in-chief.
	Sir, when we consulted on Saturday, you told me that you were receiving threats from Ntlantla Kubeka, whom you said is a brother to the late Mbuso, is that correct, do you confirm that?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, let's start here.  Why is Ntlantla threatening you or harassing you, do you know the reason why he is doing that?  There should be a reason why he is doing that.

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Mbuso was Ntlantla's brother and whenever he sees me he always torments me and harasses me.  I'm not even able to socialise or go out.  He has totally destroyed my life.

MR SIBEKO: Now we'll come to that Sir, what I want to find out is, did you at any stage fight over something else other than what you have told us about, his brother?  If it has to do with his late brother, how did he come to know that you are the one or you were part of the people would executed his brother?  Because as far as you are concerned, nobody saw you when you did that, how did he know that you were involved in the killing of his brother?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: The information was passed onto him by the driver of the getaway car, because apparently at an earlier stage they had a problem with Dan but later on they were friends and he told him all the information.

MR SIBEKO: So you are saying the driver who took you to the spot where the execution took place, quarrelled with Dan who shot that Mbuso, as a result of which he went further and told Ntlantla that his, ja, he told Ntlantla that so and so were involved in the killing of your brother, is that what you are saying?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko.  Leah?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.  Can you just explain one small aspect to me about this policy of a killer must be killed, just generally.  Did you not wait for an explanation from the killer before you killed him?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: No, we could not go to the border or the street that has been referred to before, so if one kills a person, as soldiers we should also kill that person who has killed one of our soldiers.

ADV GCABASHE: So it was just a blanket policy, everybody knew this is the way it works?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: Yes, it was a well-known policy.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just one other aspect, while the Chair was asking you questions, Sticks the driver drove off and left you at the circle, is that what you were saying?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Mr Radebe, thank you very much, you may be excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED