Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The people who were with me when we interrogated these comrades were myself, Kabelo, Jeff, Pitso, Kani and Joey.

MR TLOUBATLA: So you proceeded to interrogated them and until when did you interrogate these people?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We interrogated them for almost the whole afternoon until it was getting dark.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.  What happened when it became dark?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Comrade Sam Siyema arrived together with comrade Tammy Moglegwa.  These two comrades were prominent leaders of our organisation.  When they arrived we briefed them about the situation and after briefing them an order was issued out, they said: "Yes, we hear your report, now must happen is that these boys be killed".  What I'm trying to say it, I received an order from the two comrades at that time.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just to clear something, if my memory serves me well, I thought you mentioned that when you were called to Jeff's house you and arrived there you found Tammy and Sam or something like that, I don't know whether I was correct.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, you read me perfectly well, it was in the morning when I found comrade Tammy and comrade Sam but they left during the day and they came just towards sunset.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the Pitso that you mentioned, is that the applicant?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: That is - what did you say about him?  When you were asked as to who was present during the interrogation, you said something like you were divided into two groups and then you mentioned some names and you mentioned him.  I don't quite follow in what context you mentioned him.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The reason why I mention his name is that he was in the same yard where the interrogation took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  He was not present during the interrogation, isn't that what you said?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I have mentioned already that we separated and went in two rooms, I did not see him in the room where I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why are you giving us his name?  If he was not part of the interrogation why are you giving us his name?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I mentioned his name because when these boys were caught up in Orlando East one of the cars that was used was his.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll check the record.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	So when Sam and Tammy arrived, what happened, that is in the evening now?

CHAIRPERSON: You briefed them and later they said that these people must be killed and you are saying that, you say they said to you: "Yes, we hear you but these boys must be killed" and you said that for that reason that is why you say that you received an order from the two comrades to kill, is that what you are saying?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I said an order was taken out by comrade Tammy and comrade Sam, these are the two comrades who arrived when it was getting dark.  They were prominent leaders of the organisation and we briefed them as to what happened during the day.  We told them about the information that we got out of the victims and it was then that an order was issued out that these people be killed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just to deviate slightly, in your application or in your statement wherein you apply for amnesty for the killing of the security guard - I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I just want to refer to something ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: The loose statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are we moving to something else now?

MR TLOUBATLA: Now I just wanted to refer to something specific Mr Chairman, I'll leave it out for the moment.  I can't find that statement anyway.
	At B you said that comrade Tammy and comrade Sam gave you an order to kill these people and then what happened thereafter, what did you do?  What was the next action that you took?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: After comrade Tammy and comrade Sam gave out an order we implemented the order.  The order was that these members of SOSCO be loaded into the boots of the cars and kill them thereafter.
	We took them and we went to Showela.  I was involved and I had a firearm.  When we arrived at Showela I had Oscar with me and I grabbed him from behind by his belt.  We arrived in an open veld in Showela and I implemented the order, I shot Oscar.

MR TLOUBATLA: You mentioned that you grabbed Oscar by the belt, shot him and so on, did you know these boys before?  How did you know that the person you were grabbing by his belt was Oscar?  Did you know these boys before?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not know him before but during the interrogation his name cropped up because I was actually dealing with him, that's how I knew it was Oscar.  I did not know him before, it was only during the interrogation that I got to know him.

MR TLOUBATLA: Before you went to Showela - I want your role, the role that you played, how did you transport these people, how did you manage to get them into the cars?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It was clear after the order was issued out, that we had to force them.  We just packed them into the boot and we drove to Showela.

MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question.  You can literally pick a person up and dump them in a boot, alternatively you can give him an instruction: "Get into the boot", what I want to know is, how did you do that and you personally, did you perhaps stand back and keep quiet and somebody ordered them to go into the cars?  What was your role in getting these people into the boots of the cars?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I grabbed Oscar by his belt from behind and I pushed him and roughly pushed him into the boot, others did the same.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, ...[intervention]

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember how long this interrogation took?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It took a long time.  If I remember, I think they arrived at about 3 p.m. at Jeff's place until it was dark.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did it take so long to interrogate them?  I mean, all you wanted to know was whether they were members of SOSCO and who gave the instructions.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It took time to interrogate them because they did not confess quickly.  One other thing is that we were waiting for an instruction from above, from the senior members of the organisation as to yes, we have information from these people, they confirm that they are members of SOSCO, what should be the next step then,  that is why it took so long.

ADV SIGODI: And where were the other people, I mean in which room were they in the house, the other three?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I'm not sure as to the measurements but Jeff's house was an ordinary four roomed house but it wasn't a long distance, it was just a short distance.

ADV SIGODI: So they were in the next room?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: And you were busy assaulting them in one room?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, the interrogation carried on even in the other room.

ADV SIGODI: Were they screaming?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If I remember well, they did not scream.

ADV SIGODI: Did you hear screams from the other room?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not hear screams from the other room.

ADV SIGODI: And how badly injured were they when you took them into the boot of the car?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: They were badly injured because we interrogated them for a long time with bottles, with hangers, those are the things that I used.

ADV SIGODI: But they did not scream?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember Chairperson, whether they screamed or they did not scream but there is a probability that they screamed because we were interrogating them.