Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I think it was on the day that the late Frans Pretorius transported Gerry Richardson to the office.  I had an interview with him and he said to me that he was on lunch and that he then also said to me that - spoke about the presence of the two MK members at his house.

UNKNOWN: Colonel can I just quickly ask you also are you aware of any other and further informants that were used by the security branch?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No.

UNKNOWN: Fine.  You said in paragraph 26.5 that you got a lot of information with regard to people who have been in detention and you also referred to examples of those with regard to Mrs Mandela that was never signed by her and Zinzi Mandela.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Amongst others, yes.

UNKNOWN: And then paragraph 26.1, there was an affidavit by Joseph Makowena which disputed the evidence by Mrs Mandela in the in camera hearing.  Do you see that?  We don't have to elaborate on that.  I merely refer to that.  Paragraph C page 26 of the document.  The assault on Stompie Seipei.  In paragraph 27.3 you refer to the investigation diary.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Which is the diary of Lieutenant Dempsey.  That is the docket of the police.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I got it from it from the Attorney-General.

UNKNOWN: You were never involved in the investigation regarding Stompie Seipei.  We then go on to paragraph D.   The link between different units of the S A Police and the murder and investigation unit.  The only point I want to make is that we deal with a Stratcom operation called Operation Jackal quite in detail which did not necessarily involve Mrs Mandela but which was a wider operation.  We then move on to paragraph E at page 35.  The use of intelligence material with regard to intelligence units and matters with regard to Mrs Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.   I am not going to ask any questions on that.  Paragraph F, which is a warning that was done at the Attorney-General in connection with Themba Mabotha.  I would just like you to read that to the Committee because there were a number of questions asked about that.  Could you kindly read paragraph 1 page 33 to the the centre of the page.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I attached a warning statement to the
Attorney-General with regard to this matter for  completeness purposes and I repeat the information as set out in that statement below.  I was informed that his body had been blown up with explosives.  I was also told that it was alleged that I had handed the deceased on the day of his release from detention, 4 October 1989, to members of the Vlakplaas unit for the purpose that they were to kill him and that I was now an accomplice to his murder.
Skip paragraph 2.  Paragraph 3: It is apparently common cause that the deceased was killed as recorded, that is to say shortly after he was handed by me to De Kock.  I deny in the strongest possible terms that I handed him with the purpose of having him killed and the reason for this as well as the surrounding circumstances appears from the following.
"During the time of 1987 to 1989 I worked as investigation chief at Soweto.  In '89 I got instructions from Pretoria to investigate high treason against Mrs Mandela and to give the docket to the Attorney-General Wits for his decision.  The motivation with this instruction was that Mrs Mandela lived in Soweto and that she, according to information, had been  involved in various actions as recorded.  During the running of this investigation I obtained evidence, documentation and other material.  It was seen to that Mrs Mandela's phones at her home and at her office were tapped in terms of the Post Office Act section 118.  During the tapping the name of a person named George Johannes Mabotha appeared and it could be deduced that he was a trained MK member.  During tapping it was determined that George found himself in Marble Hall, that he needed money to return to Soweto and that he asked Mrs Mandela to telegraph money to the local Marble Hall post office for him.  Upon receipt of the mentioned money George was arrested 0by the security police Soweto, although I was not personally present.  According to the detention registers he was arrested on 4 April and was detained in accordance with section 29 of the Internal Security Act.  He was released on the 4th October".

UNKNOWN: Do you have that detention register?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you get it from the Attorney-General?  You got photocopies.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You will give it to the Commission.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Colonel, this information that you give here with regard to the telephone conversation and the information gained out of it, did you come to your knowledge before Mabotha was arrested or when Mabotha was handed over to you in terms of section 29?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: It is very difficult for me, Mr Chair, to say whether it was before or after.    It is more probable that it was after handing him over because the conversations of Mrs Mandela with other MK members are on tapes.  I listened to the tapes, I gave them to the Attorney-General last week, of certain of her conversations.  The tapes, not only transcriptions.  And surely if I had determined at that stage that there was an MK member I would have kept those cassettes as well.  So I believe that it took place after he was arrested, after he was handed over to me.  That I knew that it had been because of the conversations.

UNKNOWN: Colonel, let's just explain to the Commission what happened.  You can just confirm whether it is correct.  The tapes concerned were duplicate tapes made by you in normal office task.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: When I was busy with this high treason case I asked Bosman for copies of the tapes, working copies, and those things were retained until this day for some or other reason.

UNKNOWN: Good.  And when you consulted with me the first time you brought those tapes to my office and handed them to me, is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you told me which information was on the tapes and there wasn't any info on the tapes relating to what was mentioned in the subpoena, is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: There are, however, conversations with regard to aspects about which questions were asked in the in camera hearing and also during the other hearing in November which the Commission might be interested in and on my advice you gave the tapes to the Attorney-General and they are in his possession and are at the disposal of the Commission to go and listen to.  It wasn't possible for us in this limited time to make transcriptions for the Commission.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Colonel, you have now heard evidence with regard to the question of assault on Mabotha after arrest.  Were there any signs of assault on Mabotha's body when he was handed over to you for detention?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No.  Because the moment when a person is detained in terms of section 29 he must be examined by a district surgeon.  The district surgeons connecting to the Biko case of long ago would certainly have recorded any kind of marks and documented them and brought it to my attention.  There was no such case, I was not aware that this man had been assaulted.  He had no marks of assault on his body.

UNKNOWN: Good.  Do you know whether he was handed to you on the same day that he was arrested?