Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

MR STRYDOM: I just want to put to you the record will speak for itself, so you say on your way back, you went passed, on foot, passed the BP garage, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  That is what I stated.

CHAIRPERSON: The note which I took down just before lunch on Monday, it says
"... we were told we would meet the Police outside the hostel, near the BP garage ..."
	They said that we must attack on 17th June.  This is a report that he was giving in relation to the 14th of June, where he says we were told we had to attack.

ADV SIGODI: They said the day has come, let us prepare ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: They said we were to attack on 17th June, we were told, this is now at this meeting of the 14th, we would meet the Police outside the hostel, near the BP garage.

MR LAX: There is another portion just before that.

MR STRYDOM: There is a portion, I can just read my note Chairperson.  Were you divided into groups, that was the question ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before this one?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, "no one group cross bridge", I've got telegram style notes here, "came across casspirs.  We took main road, went to BP" and then I've got "open veld" after that.

MR LAX: If I could just say my notes says "we went towards the BP garage", but I've got here "we took the main road to leave the hostel via the gate, went towards BP garage, down towards bridge, came across the casspirs."

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if I can assist, my note reads "left the hostel in one group, crossed the bridge and came across the casspirs.  We took the main road towards BP, crossed open veld to the bridge, where we came across the casspirs."

MR LAX: Yes, more or less ...

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I accept that, I've got a telegram style, "went towards BP", I haven't got "towards" here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was it before the portion that I have just read?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR BERGER: Apparently it is after.

CHAIRPERSON: It is after that, oh, okay.  Let me just get it.  Yes, okay very well.

MR BERGER: I don't take everything, but it comes after the question were there any women at the stadium, which is before they left the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  Yes, "went through the main gate, we proceeded towards the BP garage, at the open space we met the casspirs."  Is that ...

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I will take it from there.  The place where you met the casspirs, was that on the Boipatong side of the main road, or still on the kwaMadala side of that road?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: On the Boipatong side, that is where we met the casspirs in the veld.

MR STRYDOM: Okay, now I want you to look at Exhibit M2 again and if you accept that the garage is where I pointed point (d) on that paragraph, I also want to point out an open veld on this side, on the Boipatong side of the tar road, is that the veld where you got the casspirs, or found the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is the garage near the robots.  This is the spot where we met the casspirs, this is the veld.  There is a main road.

MR STRYDOM: Just for record purposes, the witness points to that piece of veld between the main road and Boipatong, it seems to be many footpaths running through that area there.

MR LAX: Perhaps Mr Strydom, you could point out to him that were the tree actually is, that is point (a)?

MR STRYDOM: You referred to a tree, I want you to have a look at this sketch, do you see any tree on that photo?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Here the tree is and here is the veld, and there is the BP garage.  I can see although it is not very clear.  Here is the veld where we met the casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: The trees you are pointing out, is in front of the factories, if you accept those are the factories, point (e).  Just point the trees again.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There - at the Boipatong robots, there are trees around there, but I cannot see properly on that map.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, I didn't get an interpretation.

MR LAX: What was the last part of what he said, he said something about Boipatong, etc.  It wasn't translated to us.

INTERPRETER: He said there was a clump of trees near the robot, the robots at Boipatong and he was repeating that there is a route that goes towards Boipatong and another one that goes towards Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  Did the group follow the tar road up to the robots or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, but we did not proceed to the robots directly, but we took another route towards Boipatong.  The route that we took, went towards the veld, we did not go directly to the robots.

MR STRYDOM: Can you explain how did the group get to that area where you found the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were one big group when we left the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, and when you eventually got to the tar road and you have to cross the tar road now to get to the Boipatong side, how did you get from there, to the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were one group when we left the hostel, and as we approached the robots, we turned towards the route that goes towards the veld, and the route that we took, was not very far from the robots.  As we proceeded along that route, we found those casspirs, that was just before you enter the township.

MR STRYDOM: Can you walk across this tar road and walk onto the open veld area between the tar road and Boipatong, without any problems?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: As the group went over the tarred road towards Boipatong, did you have any problems getting onto the veld area, or did you have to follow a specific route to get there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I mentioned before, we were one group and we did not go towards the robots, but branched off towards that veld.  That is where we met the casspirs.  As we left the hostel, we were just one group, until we reached that veld.

MR STRYDOM: I want to show  you Exhibit M2 again.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, you know M2 is so vague with regard to that part of the world, M1 is very clear with regard to the departure from the hostel and crossing the roads and all that stuff.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to make sure that I have the same M1.  Is M1 ...

MR LAX: M1 has e, f, g, h at the top of it.  Unfortunately mine is in black and white but it is much clearer.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, yes, I should have referred the witness to this photograph.  I am going to show you, this is M2, just orientate yourself, see if you can understand that sketch.

MR LAX: Sorry that is M1 as we've got it recorded.

MR STRYDOM: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that M1?  All right.

MR STRYDOM: Just to make it easier, do you see the kwaMadala hostel depicted where I point it to you now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the factories that I show to you now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the main road from Vereeniging to Vanderbijl, or Sebokeng/Vanderbijl?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And do you see the Boipatong township that I point to you now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the main road running in front of the factories?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you also see the intersection between these two roads there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And I point to you now where the garage is, do you see where the garage is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now let's start with the position of the casspirs, can you indicate on this Exhibit M1 now the position of the casspirs, where you found them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There.  That is where we found the casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: Just make a cross where you say the casspirs were, if you can make a cross.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, near that forest.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the cross I will point out ...

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: There are other crosses, the one cross, I will encircle that cross.