Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-15

MR KHUZWAYO: Maybe my attorney didn't quite understand, but I did explain exactly as to how it happened.

MS JELAL: So did your attorney write out the handwritten statement as well?

MR KHUZWAYO: One statement which I made and I gave to my attorney, in that one it wasn't sufficient information therefore when I sat with her I explained everything.

MS JELAL: ... (indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: He said that he gave one statement to his attorney.  He sat down with the attorney and told the attorney everything.

MS JELAL: So would that statement that you gave to your attorney, if your attorney would please show you the supplementary  bundle, the handwritten version, would you confirm that that is the statement?

MR KHUZWAYO: That will be easy for me to do, I can easily identify my statement and also I'm the one who signed that statement after my attorney had written it, I signed it.

MS JELAL: Mr Chairperson if I could just request that Ms Loonat shows the documents to the applicant to identify it as the same one that he has done?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Which one is that Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: That is the supplementary affidavit.  We're specifically looking at page 10 of the handwritten version.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, before you go on, I didn't have my hearing, could you please just allow me to hear the answer to the question that Ms Jelal put to my client please?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he was explaining, please correct me if I'm not explaining it fully.  He was saying that it's easy for him to identify the statement that he made to the attorney, who then showed it to him, because he signed it, so he'll be able to identify it.  That was the effect.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal, is it the statement that starts on page 9 of the supplementary bundle?  Is that the one that you want to be shown to the applicant?

MS JELAL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what is this?  Is this, alright, perhaps we must ask him.  It's an unsigned thing, an unattested thing, but I don't know, Mr Khuzwayo can you identify this document?  It starts on page 9 of the supplementary bundle, it's a handwritten document with the heading Affidavit, it's got your name on it, but it's not signed.  I don't know if you know where this thing comes from, or is this a photocopy of Exhibit A?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, could I perhaps assist here, because I'm the one who drew the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

UNKNOWN: What happened on that particular day was during the course of the day I was told to quickly draw up this affidavit to make it easier for the Committee Members which is what I did on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Exhibit A?

UNKNOWN: It's exactly the same thing.  It's just that I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's a photocopy.

UNKNOWN: This is a photocopy except on that day my client hadn't signed it and we weren't going to proceed with the matter on that day and this was that day thereafter that I got him to sign it and this morning I submitted to you all the signed copy, but it was actually signed on that, it's just a duplication.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 21st of September.

UNKNOWN: That's right, the 21st of September.  It's exactly the same thing, except I gave in the signed copy this morning, but it was signed on the 21st in the presence of L G Naido.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we have managed to resolve some of the confusion.  Yes, this is an unsigned photostatic copy of Exhibit A, that you're referring to.  Don't you want him to rather refer to Exhibit A, because we're getting confused with all these documents.  You want to deal with Exhibit A, because that's the official thing before us no.

MS JELAL: Alright, that's fine Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright?

MS JELAL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you, do you want him to look at Exhibit A?

MS JELAL: Just confirmation that that was the full statement that he made.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.  Ms Loonat, just show him Exhibit A there.  Just have a look at that document and then Ms Jelal will ask you questions about that.

MS JELAL: Is this the statement in which you maintain you made full disclosure?

MR KHUZWAYO: As I've already mentioned that I made this statement, but I knew that I was going to get a chance to sit with my attorney and reveal everything and that's exactly what I did.

MS JELAL: Okay.  Sir, again looking at your statement or the annexure A, Mr Chairperson this going to be rather difficult because I'm not in possession of the signed document, therefore I'm going to refer to page numbers and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you have Exhibit A?

MS JELAL: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: The one that was handed in.

UNKNOWN: I've got an extra copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can you give it then we all refer to the same thing.  Can somebody just assist there.  Yes, Mr Panday's here, thank you.  Alright.  Good.  So you're also in possession of Exhibit A.

MS JELAL: Yes.  Right.  I refer now to paragraph 6.  Would you please tell us if all the names which Bheki Zitha brought to you, which was your so-called list of people to eliminate, did you eliminate all of those people on the list?

MR KHUZWAYO: Not all of them were eliminated because it was difficult for us to get hold of others because they knew that they were wanted by us.

MS JELAL: Did Bheki Zitha always bring the instructions to you or did you communicate with Shadrack directly as well?

MR KHUZWAYO: I personally never received any instructions from Bheki Zitha.  Shadrack was the one who would receive instructions from Bheki Zitha, that is why I only used a list which was brought to me by Shadrack.

MS JELAL: Sir, do you know Nkosi Olive Nkwanyana?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, I don't know that person.

MS JELAL: So do you remember your trial at the Supreme Court, the High Court as it's now known?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do remember.

MS JELAL: Do you remember the lady that gave evidence as a State Witness against you?

MR KHUZWAYO: I know her, it's just that the names you gave me, I don't know them.  I know her in another name.

MS JELAL: So do you know her personally, was she a friend of yours?

MR KHUZWAYO: She's my cousin.

MS JELAL: So on the 3rd of May 1994 and at the time of the attack on Sibiya and Mthembu, did you also attack the lady that I mentioned, that I called Olive, did you attempt to attack her as well?

MR KHUZWAYO: It wasn't easy for us to do that because she was female.  We didn't want to attack females, we only wanted to attack males who were the perpetrators.

MS JELAL: So did you give chase after her and did the people who were working as your accomplices, did they not say that she was an informer and she was chased into a plantation?

MR KHUZWAYO: That didn't happen.  I saw everything that happened there.  I left two of my comrades and we tried to chase Sibiya and then we came back and we regrouped with the other two and then we decided that we were going to get hold of Sibiya on another day because he had run away.

MS JELAL: Okay.  I now look at page 42 of the bundle, paragraph 8.  This is the affidavit of Nkosi Olive Nkwanyana where she says
"I ran into the nearest sugar cane field with my two year old daughter on my back and Sibiya followed me.  The same group chased after us and fired shots on two occasions."
Do you agree with that statement?

MR KHUZWAYO: No, I don't agree with that.  I think it is a mistake because my group knew exactly who we were looking for, we were not looking for any female or children.  Maybe she got scared after she heard the gunshots and then she ran away but not because someone came and pointed a gun at her because if our aim was to kill her, we would have gone there and shot here.  We were only looking for those men.