Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-22

MR PRIOR: Do you want to reserve the right to maybe call Mr Mphahlele at some point?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Of course, Mr Chairman, after there's, even if it's not him, anybody who was involved in the decision making, definitely, Mr Chairman, I'll call with regard to all other applications, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Okay, just making sure you're not closing your evidence, that's all.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you, I only have one witness at this stage, Mr Chairman.  It's Mr Martens.  May he be sworn in, he's Afrikaans speaking.

MR MARTENS: (duly sworn in states)

MR PRIOR: Mr Martens, is it correct that, is it correct that during 1992 you were a Policeman in the service of the South African Police in Lady Grey?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: And on the 3rd of January of that day, it was a Friday, were you at the single quarters of the South African
Police Service at Lady Grey?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: What was the circumstances?

MR MARTENS: We were busy with a braai at these quarters.

MR PRIOR: And who was all who participated in that braai?

MR MARTENS: It was me, my wife, Sergeant Veldsman, Nico Roetz and his wife and their son and also Rita Roetz.

MR PRIOR: If you drive into Lady Grey, what road do you take, is it Brummer Street?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: And the single quarters, are they next to the offices?

MR MARTENS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: In other words, it is identifiable as a Police building, or part of a Police Station?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Will you explain to the Committee what happened at approximately 20h00.

MR MARTENS: Well, we were busy with the braai when I saw a bakkie drive past in the street, and which was in the direction of the town.  After a while I saw that this vehicle came from the outer part of town.

MR PRIOR: Where you inside or outside the building, or the flat?

MR MARTENS: I was outside.

MR PRIOR: Were you alone?

MR MARTENS: I know my wife stood in the door of the building.  I do not know where the other people were at that stage.

MR PRIOR: Please continue.

MR MARTENS: I saw this bakkie when I came out.  I saw that there were two people sitting in the back, after which, or after I heard a gunshot and after that, an explosion.  I saw that the windows breaking.

MR PRIOR: We heard in evidence from the applicant that a handgrenade was thrown to the single quarters where a Policeman stood.  It was via you.  Can you tell the Committee this loud explosion that you heard, could you see what, what did it?

MR MARTENS: I realised that it must have been a handgrenade that was thrown towards us.

MR PRIOR: Did you see the explosion, or any target, or did you see that it was such a grenade?

MR MARTENS: No, I only heard the explosion.

MR PRIOR: Continue.

MR MARTENS: I then ran into the building, if there were not people that were injured, after which, or after I saw that everybody was all right, or alive, and not seriously injured, I and Veldsman, or Veldsman and I ran to the Police Station where we got a vehicle and weapons and followed the vehicle.
Yes, but we could not find the vehicle.  When I returned to the Police Station I heard that my wife, who was pregnant at that stage and very close to giving birth, was taken by ambulance to Aliwal.

MR PRIOR: Were you injured in this event?

MR MARTENS: No.

MR PRIOR: Your wife?

MR MARTENS: She was taken in hospital for shock.

MR PRIOR: Did she have any physical injuries?  Her birth, was it normal?

MR MARTENS: No, there were complications.  They struggled when the child was born to resuscitate the child.

MR PRIOR: And today?

MR MARTENS: Yes, the child is normal today.

MR PRIOR: Mr Veldsman, was he injured?

MR MARTENS: No.

MR PRIOR: Mr Roetz?

MR MARTENS: Not as far as I know.

MR PRIOR: Mrs Roetz?

MR MARTENS: No.

MR PRIOR: Were there any children present at that braai?

MR MARTENS: Mr Roetz's son was there, yes.

MR PRIOR: As far as you know, was he injured, the child?

MR MARTENS: No, not as far as I know.

MR PRIOR: Did you launch any investigation into where this grenade exploded?

MR MARTENS: The next day when we came back from Aliwal, I went to go and look, and I saw that it was in a square just before the kitchen where the explosion occurred.

MR PRIOR: How far was that from where you stood?

MR MARTENS: It was just a wall between us, or that separated me from the explosion.

MR PRIOR: In other words, the explosion, or the wall, protected you in the explosion?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Is there anything else that you would like to tell the Committee regarding this incident and the amnesty application of the applicant?

MR MARTENS: Well, I do not agree with his application because the fact is that my wife and child could have been dead today as a result of the attack, and also the fact that this person said that the attacks were, or targeted towards the Police, and he shows no regret towards me and my family.  And that is why I say that I cannot feel anything about him.  For me, or as I see it, he must remain in jail and complete his sentence.

MR PRIOR: Is there anything else that you would like to mention to the Committee?

MR MARTENS: No, that is all.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if Rita Roetz was injured?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.  Rita Roetz was injured in her arm, her right arm.  There was shrapnel in the arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I just, first before I ask one question.  Mr Martens, accept my sympathy for what you went through during the attack, and your family.  My question is, Mr Martens, the reason you are saying that the applicant must stay in jail, he must not be granted amnesty, is because he is not showing any sympathy for what you went through, or any regrets of what he had done.  That's the only reason that you are saying no, he must not be granted amnesty?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, and I feel that he must pay for his deeds.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Lastly, Mr Chairman, I've said it's one question, but lastly, if the applicant would say to you that he is sorry for what he did, you won't have any objection to his application for amnesty, am I getting you correct?

MR MARTENS: Mr Chairperson, I feel that he must still
complete his sentence, even if he apologises.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, through you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Martens I will also preface my questions by saying I have got sympathy to what has happened to you, but there is just one aspect I want to clarify.  You are saying you are opposed to this application because your wife was there, she could have died.  Now my understanding is that it was a Police Station and only there were only single quarters there.  Now, the question is, under normal circumstances, it would be only Police who are staying at the single quarters, but not members of their families.  Will I be correct to say that?

MR MARTENS: Sir, this Sergeant Veldsman was a that, or lived in the barracks at that stage, and he invited me and my family for a braai that evening.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, you were, in other words people who were not Police or employed as members of the Police, were there only for a braai that evening?

MR MARTENS: That is correct, yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Your Worship, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Mr Martins were you aware that at the time in question APLA had a policy or a mission of attacking
Police?

MR MARTENS: No.

ADV SANDI: Were you aware that there was an organisation in existence at the time in the name of APLA?

MR MARTENS: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What did you know about APLA at the time?

MR MARTENS: Well, I knew that they target white people and soft targets.