Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I just wanted leave to put something along the lines of his visit which I forgot to put to the witness.  Can we perhaps deal with that before he deals with the floor?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV DE JAGER: I don't know whether the plan, as normally is the case, indicates North.

MR ERASMUS: The top indicates North.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, that is affirmative.  Then the South is Fountain Street and on the Western side is Aliwal street.

MR VISSER: I don't wish to reveal my lack of knowledge but I think the witness is swapping South and North around from what I know of Bloemfontein.  I don't know it that well but I just wish to indicate that there might be a mistake.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, the fact is that two of the sides of the building front on the street?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, that is affirmative.

CHAIRPERSON: We can go during the adjournment and see whether it's North or South.  How long will you be Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: It's a minute Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus, isn't it so that when you made these visits you must sign in the local police station's occurrence book  perhaps or some other book and also in a book that you keep?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, there was a detention file specifically for this purpose.  In very few cases, if any, one had to make an entry in an occurrence book.  It was a little visits file in which all the visits to these detainees had to be recorded.

ADV MEMANI: My understanding is that when cells are visited, the regular visits by the police station themselves and when other people like the red cross and lawyers come in, a note is made that a visit is taking place at a particular time, in the occurrence book.

MR ERASMUS: Yes, the normal station staff use the occurrence book to record routine visits but visits by other people besides the station staff will be entered into the visitors file.

ADV MEMANI: Didn't you see these, in the light of the fact that the victims were denying that you ever visited them?

MR ERASMUS: I can go and make enquiries ...[End of tape 3, side A - no follow-on sound]

MR ERASMUS: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know about his duties in Brandfort?

MR ERASMUS: I was informed regarding his services Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have anything at all to do with them?

MR ERASMUS: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he borrow your car to go there and back?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, the vehicles were basically allocated to a person.  They were all government vehicles, not private or personal vehicles.

CHAIRPERSON: But he used your government vehicle, did he?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, on a number of occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
[no sound on tape]

MR VISSER: One, there is some confusion in regard to the point of the compass of the streets adjoining the building at Fountain Street and secondly he did promise to obtain a photocopy for you of an SAP 172 form.  The witness has obtained these copies, he's got them with him Mr Chairman.  Perhaps he could hand in the 172 form and then just tell you about the streets.
[No sound]
  I hardly believe it's necessary for that to be an exhibit, but we can mark Exhibit P67 if you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: P67.
[No sound]

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Are you going to ask him questions about the building or should I?

MR VISSER: I can do it Mr Chairman.
	Mr Erasmus, when you mentioned the street names on the side of the buildings on Fountain Street where the security police was, Commissioner de Jager asked whether the Northern side was above and this gave rise to the confusion that Fountain Street was described as being on the Southern side of the building.  Can you tell us what the correct situation is?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, Fountain Street is on the Northern Side of the building, Aliwal Street is on the Western side of the building.  The floor plan should just be turned around.  It was correctly entered on the plan although the directions were not clearly indicated.

CHAIRPERSON: And is it correct that on the Southern end of the building in Aliwal Street is the entrance to the parking area?

MR ERASMUS: Of the building itself, the Southern side of the building?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR ERASMUS: There are five parking lots there, parking spaces at the back side of the building.

CHAIRPERSON: And there is an enclosed parking area walled in at the back of the building, about where the letter of the big number 4 is on the plan.

MR ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And there is an entrance into the building in the parking area?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is on the Southern wall of the portion of the building running along Fountain Street?

MR ERASMUS: That is also correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand that from the entrance you can get access to the lifts which are shown on the plan as being on the corner of Aliwal Street and Fountain Street of the building?

MR ERASMUS: It's at the main entrance Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR VISSER: Perhaps referring to the last point made by the Chairman, previously in your evidence you've said that in the passages there was limited access.  The public did not unlimited access to the passages.

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.  On the 4th and the 5th floors, there were trellises which limited access.

MR VISSER: But a member of the public, would something prevent him to take the lift to the landing of the 4th and the 5th floors?

MR ERASMUS: When the Divisional Commissioner was there, there was a guard in front of the doors but there was no limited access.  At the moment there is a trellis door at that entrance.

MR VISSER: You're not answering my question, I'm referring to 1986.  Could a member of the public, could he easily get to the landings of the 4th and 5th floors with the lift?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, many people had that access.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't know whether, by way of elucidation, I can put a question or two in regard to Exhibit P67 to the witness.
	Is this the form to which reference is made in that document you've referred to this morning Mr Erasmus?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Form SAP 172.  And the way in which you have to read it, if you look at the little block on the left-hand side of both pages - do you have a copy in front of you?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, please excuse me, I've taken one at the office and I've deleted some particulars.  I will give you a clean form.

MR VISSER: What can you tell us about the form, what is this all about?

MR ERASMUS: This is the daily notice of changes which is geared to staff administration.  Any change in personnel matters, change in salaries, ...[indistinct], additional finances, housing, it's all matters referring to personnel administration.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Reverting to the building, for the interest of those who have not seen it.  In Aliwal Street, on the other side of the road from this building, is the Supreme Court, isn't it?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, and on the other side is the offices of the Attorney General.

MR VISSER: I have no further question for this witness Mr Chairman.  If he's going to be excused it will be subject to whatever ruling is going to made in regard to the docket I suppose Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we should deal with that now.  As I understand it - and correct me please, we realised when we adjourned yesterday that we had different views as to what you said, you have found a docket which contains statements from various people including policemen, relating to what was said by White Mohape.  It is not a statement made by White Mohapi.

MR VISSER: The docket also includes three statements made by White Mohape Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it just one of those three that you wish to put in?