Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, sorry to keep interrupting but I think we must just clear up a few points otherwise we might forget them.  This group that you shot at and also the group of young boys that you saw near the shop that you shot at, was there anything distinctive about the groups to identify them as being comrades?  Were they wearing T-shirts or headgear or were they singing songs or doing anything to indicate that they were comrades and not just a group of people who weren't affiliated to any particular political organisation?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: What I can say is that this Chairlady had explained that the people in that area were ANC supporters.  These boys did not wear any sort of uniform or T-shirt, they were not doing anything.  As far as I could tell they looked like people who were just standing around or they could have been playing soccer.  There was nothing wrong that they were doing.  They had not done anything wrong, like throwing a stone at his car.

MR MCHUNU: Is it your assumption perhaps that because in the area there were no IFP members, most probably those boys were ANC boys?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I cannot say that with certainty because in tribal areas a person builds his house wherever he likes or if he has the permission of the Nkosi, not necessarily because you belong to a certain political organisation.  You build your house and you get your land from the Nkosi.  You do not build your house in an area just because you are affiliated to a political organisation.  So I would not know whether they belonged to ANC, PAC or IFP.  You normally would not know how or to which organisation people were affiliated to.

MR MCHUNU: My question is, on that particular day at that particular time, was it perhaps your assumption or Mr Mfayela's assumption that those people who were standing there were ANC members precisely because the area was an ANC area or dominated area of the ANC?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, that is what we assumed.

MR MCHUNU: You can proceed.

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you do.  You were asked by the Chair earlier to try and give us some idea of how many people were in these different groups and you didn't answer that aspect of it, both the small boys and this second group, can you do that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: ....[no English translation]

MR MCHUNU: Could you start with the small boys, the first group?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I will try and explain it this way.  When I got off the car it did not occur to me to count how many there were but they were maybe more than four.  There couldn't have been more than 10.  I think there were about four or five because when I started shooting two of them were rolling down the slope.  They were not many.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second group?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: They were also not many, they were about five or six.  There could not have been more than 10 but because it was dark I could not be able to count just how many there were.

MR MCHUNU: Would you also be in a position to give an idea as you did as for the young boys, the ages of the second group?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: They were slightly older because one of them was the same age as the journalist there.  Because when I started shooting one of them said I'm an IFP member and Mr Mfayela said: "IFP members do not stand along the road at this time", and I got back into the car.  The area I'm referring to is the Mona Lisa area.  I'm sure that what I'm saying today is the truth and the person whom I shot will remember this if he is listening.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, why did you shoot at those groups of boys?  Why did you obey Mfayela's orders to shoot at boys who as far as you were concerned were doing nothing wrong and were just standing there?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I had no other alternative because when Mr Mfayela has taken a decision you cannot oppose it.  He is a different person from the one who sits in Parliament.
	When he is with his colleagues and they have decided on something, you cannot do otherwise.  He's a different person when he talks about killing comrades.  He also is capable of killing people personally.  Even when he killed these children in 1990, people know that he indeed is capable of doing anything with regards to the comrades.  The people from Ndwedwe know him.  He is a killer.
	If you did something wrong at Ndwedwe you would indeed have to deal with Mfayela and his group and it was known that those people would kill.

MR MCHUNU: Can we go ahead?  What finally happened with those men you shot?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would not know because when I shot it was dark.  Ndwedwe is an area that I did not grow up in,  I only came there after being released from prison.  I was there from March to December 1993, therefore I was not used to the area.  I only knew the area when I got close to Mfayela and his police colleagues on our missions killing people.  I do not know a lot of people from the Ndwedwe area and the Somkomo area.
	Mr Mfayela showed me these areas as I was going with him and he would show me where to kill.  People like Mdu, Tini and Zwelake, Gipa as well, all know about Mfayela.  I am not telling a lie when I say that he is a killer, I know him very well.  He has killed a lot of ANC people and he will turn around and say these people
were IFP victims, but let me return to my application.
"After shooting these boys, Mfayela left me and Zwelake at Mr Zondi's house and he left for the evening.  I don't remember quite well, I'm sure whether it was on a Monday the 29th, Mfayela came to my house and he was with Mzimbi Sishi.  He took me from home.  That is where there should be a correction, it was not Mfega who shot the taxi owner."

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 18 of the document?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Ja.  You should also remember that this statement was taken in a hurry for the Goldstone Commission and it was supposed to be transferred or carried over to the ITU, so there may be mistakes in the statement.  I'm just trying to correct that it was not Mfega, he was not present at this incident.  I think you should take what I say today.
"Mr Mfayela came to pick us up on the 29th.  It was myself, Ntini Tongweni, Zwelaki as well as Mdu Sithole and Msimbi Sishe."

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just repeat those names?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Zwelaki Mbambo, Mdu Sithole, Ntini Tongweni, Msimbi Sishe - I'm not sure whether that's
his real name or a nickname, and myself as well as Mr Mfayela.  
"There were six of us in the Cressida. Msimbi was sitting in the passenger's seat in front ..."
...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, what was Ntini's ...

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Tongweni.

MR LAX: Mtongweni?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Tongweni.