Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

ADV POTGIETER: But what is - what is - what is the normal situation once an inquest has reached a conclusion - that's - isn't that the end of the matter especially when there is no indication of a finding that somebody is responsible.

MR KNIPE: Not necessarily - no necessarily.

ADV POTGIETER: So did you think well in spite of that finding that nobody is responsible there is going to be a subsequent one and that is going to make up for the short comings of the first one.

MR KNIPE: I never said - no I never said that I was aware of the findings of the first inquest - I was unaware of when that one was completed.

ADV POTGIETER: Or you were never aware of the [intervention]

MR KNIPE: I was not aware that it had been completed.  I have been at pains to say that I left - I did not  like certain things at Murder and Robbery which included aspects of this investigation - not the only reasons, and I decided to leave.  I had no further contact with the investigation as far as I am concerned the investigation might also have improved after I left, I don't know.

ADV POTGIETER: Now let's move on a bit - after the acquittal of Mr Weaver - the Attorney General - advocate Rossouw at that stage in fact instituted a  further probe investigation not so.

MR KNIPE: Quite correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Were you not part of that?

MR KNIPE: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you sure about that?

MR KNIPE: I might have advised Segal I don't know, as I said I did make contact with Segal.

ADV POTGIETER: I am - I am advised that contact was made with advocate Rossouw as you know is now retired.

MR KNIPE: By whom?

ADV POTGIETER: And - by this Commission and he seemed to recollect that you were part of that.

MR KNIPE: No that is mistaken - what year was that sir?

ADV POTGIETER: Well that was - that was subsequent to the - it must have been very soon after Mr Weaver's acquittal.

MR KNIPE: Ja I think - I went to Durban in early '88 I think - I think the basic investigation started in '88.  It is very possible that as I said I know I had regular contact with Segal advising him - trying to advise him as to aspects which I thought needed clarification.
 But I was not directly involved in the docket as such.

ADV POTGIETER: All right I think we don't need to take that further at this stage, you've already offered to be of further assistance to the Commission so Mr Rossouw is available we can always follow that up and deal with that.
 In fact perhaps in the interim just to be of some assistance I am instructed - advised that the - that, that probe was started the very day after Mr Weavers acquittal so that if you could be of some assistance, perhaps you can apply your mind to it.

MR KNIPE: The date of Mr Weavers acquittal was?

ADV POTGIETER: The day - the day after his acquittal.

MR KNIPE: And the date was?

ADV POTGIETER: I'll get - I'll get that information to you as well it was somewhere in '87 if I am not mistaken or even '88 - early '88.
 Let's just get to the scene quickly unfortunately the time seemed to be running out on us, it's normally our biggest enemy.  Let's just first of all place you on the scene, this was - this came out of the blue as you have indicated to us, you were told at the parade that you must go to this intersection of these two streets.

MR KNIPE: Again it is very difficult to be adamant - and dogmatic about time frames I seem to have a recall that we were mustard for parade when a radio report had come through stating that Murder and Robbery chaps had been involved in a shooting, and my recall is that we all left our offices at Bishop Lavis and travelled through to Guguletu.

ADV POTGIETER: And I know that you were - you were asked this before as well when you testified, but your initial indication in your statements was that you arrived at about 735.

MR KNIPE: Very difficult around about 745 - 800.

ADV POTGIETER: But your - your very first statement we got it somewhere here - is soon after the incident, that placed it at approximately 735.

MR KNIPE: 7?

ADV POTGIETER: 35.

MR KNIPE: It could also be I can't recall.

ADV POTGIETER: That - wouldn't that be - wouldn't that be more accurate it was deposed to on the 1st of April '86 where you give your arrival time at approximately 735.

MR KNIPE: It's possible Mr Chairman.  As I say my recall is that we were mustering for parade - we muster for parade at about 730 - 730 to 800 now - I think the statement made then would probably be more accurate than I recall now.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja I would have expected that as well to be the case.  Now while you were on the scene was there any shooting that was going on.

MR KNIPE: I did not hear anything no.

ADV POTGIETER: If there was shooting going on you - you must of heard it not so?

MR KNIPE: I would have expected to hear it but there was also a lot of noise on the scene and I don't know if the shooting took place where exactly on the scene I was.  I know I was - one of the first things that I did on the scene and concerned me was the danger that the one victim might have had a hand grenade under his stomach and that was concern and that's why we tied a rope to him and I busied myself initially very much with that action.

ADV POTGIETER: Now you don't need to respond immediately you can think about it and as I say look this is not  - this is not the end of the road - this is a process it will - we can discuss this as well but according to the objective evidence there was shooting happening still at 756 - four minutes to eight on the scene.
 So if you had arrived at approximately 735 you would have been present on the scene when there were still shooting going on.

MR KNIPE: I did not hear any shooting.

ADV POTGIETER: As I say you can take that on board and consider that.

MR KNIPE: I have considered it because that questions has been put to me earlier and previously I cannot remember any shooting.

ADV POTGIETER: One other thing and I'll try and just cover some of the more important things for these purposes here, the Exhibits that you collected on the scene what did you actually do with them - how did dispose of them?

MR KNIPE: They were all placed in plastic bags labelled in other words - I can remember the one gentleman had muti around his neck and one had documents and the one had a firearm etcetera - etcetera.  Everything collected from each corpse was placed into individual plastic bags - labelled and handed to Major Brits.

ADV POTGIETER: And you handed it to Major Brits?

MR KNIPE: At the scene.

ADV POTGIETER: At the scene.

MR KNIPE: At the scene.

ADV POTGIETER: Now what normally happens with those Exhibits from there onwards?

MR KNIPE: Those Exhibits should have been handed into the SAP 13 at Guguletu.

ADV POTGIETER: Now we have - we have had regard to all of these records and we don't find any record of those kinds of Exhibits that you refer to.  What would your comment be on that if we can't find any record now of any of those Exhibits.

MR KNIPE: Well I think I have already been reasonably outspoken that I do not believe that the initial investigation was as thorough as it should have been and that would have been a mistake.

ADV POTGIETER: Was it as bad as all that, that an Exhibit that was collected from the person of - people who are alleged to have been involved in attempted murders and so on, on the police, was just - just disappeared somewhere.

MR KNIPE: Well I don't know if all the Exhibits disappeared, I think hand guns were handed in, I was under the impression they were not handed in immediately.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja no-no I am just talking about the personal, we did eventually find records of the arms but they were handed in some days later.

MR KNIPE: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: But of these we don't find any trace.

MR KNIPE: Well then it is incorrect, it's wrong.

ADV POTGIETER: So it must have been an alarmingly poor investigation not so?