Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

N JACK MENERA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he elected a councillor in 1991 by a majority of members of the community?

N JACK MENERA: No he was not elected in 1991, he was elected in 1988.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he re-elected in 1991 or there abouts?

N JACK MENERA: He was not re-elected and in the democratic elections of 1995 again he was not chosen.  If he really was qualified as a councillor he would have been elected again, so it means he was not right to the people at all.  That is why at this moment he is not a councillor.  He could have taken part in the 1995 elections but people did not elect him because they knew his past experience.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson, I would like to put it clearly that Mr Edward Phelane will also deny that any such gang existed.  Mr Edward Phelane will also furthermore deny that there had ever been an incident in which he was driving his car and steered it into these pupils and that he had any problem with the songs that they sang.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr van der Merwe, I would like you to help me.  The dispute in this issue, is it not the fact that Mr and Mrs Phelane were members of the township's board or the council. And the fact that they were members of the council didn't carry the approval of the ANC?  It was contrary to the policy of the ANC at that stage that people should serve on these kinds of councils and as a result of the fact that they did not wish to resign, some of the members of the ANC decided that they should be forced to resign, and that that forcing them which was exercised ultimately led to the death of Mrs Phelane and the souring friendship between the other Phelanes? And is that not the route of this whole matter and what lies at the basis of the amnesty application and that all these other aspects are really side issues when seen against the real matter which we have to decide on today?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson  I'm indebted to you.  The applicant has interwoven the two. He has the one aspect relating to gangs and then the fact that they were officials of the community.  I don't intend staying on these points for long, it's just to try and bring these two aspects together.
	Mr Menera, you have testified that the Bloemfontein branch visited Mr Phelane in order to try to convince him to stop from being part of the council of Brandfort.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR VAN DER MERWE: You've testified that members of the ANC, the Bloemfontein branch of the ANC, visited Mr Phelane and his wife to try to persuade them not to be part of the council of Brandfort any more.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: May I clarify the evidence of the applicant.  His evidence was that they communicated with Mr Phelane about their desire that Mrs Phelane should resign.  It was not his evidence but they revisited Mr and Mrs Phelane to discuss the resignation of Mrs Phelane from the council.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson, I stand to be corrected, but if I recall correctly the evidence when I was listening was that members of the ANC branch in Bloemfontein did in fact visit Mr Phelane.

N JACK MENERA: Maybe you understood it differently.  Let me tell you this.  As the ANC we called the regional office in Bloemfontein to go to Brandfort where we would ask Mr Morgan Phelane together with his wife to attend that gathering so that they could be convinced to step down.  That is what I said.

ADV DE JAGER: And did they come to Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: They did come to Brandfort.

N JACK MENERA: Please don't interrupt him if you're not sure about it either.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Commissioner I am certain what the witness is saying is different to what was put to him by Mr van der Merwe.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Menera who were the people from the Bloemfontein branch who went to see Mr Phelane?

N JACK MENERA: Sammy Mutsape was one of them and the other comrade who was with him but Mutsape was one of them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You have given evidence that the firs step was to use the buckets, the night buckets at the shop or house of Mr Phelane to empty these buckets there, was it the shop or the house?

N JACK MENERA: It was at the shop Sir.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And your evidence was that these night buckets were emptied in the shop.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That's true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Morgan Phelane will testify that the buckets were not emptied in his shop, but that these were put down in front of the shop and that the people involved with this were members of SANCO.  Do you have any comments on that?

N JACK MENERA: I want to answer your question precisely. I said to you we took those buckets and spilled them at the shop. What he is saying is that they are members of SANCO who did that.  He's not wrong, he's right because all organisations they fell under SANCO.  In SANCO there are members of the ANC, there are members of AZAPO, there are members of PAC and Inkatha and all political organisations fell under the umbrella of SANCO.  As he says that members of SANCO did that he's right. So which means the community did that, not the way he was thinking, it's the community who did that to spill those toilet buckets at his shop. We were ANC, AZAPO, PAC and all people who were residents of that community.  He is right when he says it's SANCO.

N JACK MENERA: Mr Morgan Phelane will further testify that it concerned the consumers' boycott and that it had nothing to do with his serving on the council.

N JACK MENERA: Let me answer you in this way.  Maybe you don't understand the politics of that day in the same fashion.  He was an ANC member.  For him to be a councillor he was guilty.  That is the first fact which I want you to understand.  For him to be a councillor, that was the beginning of his unfaithfulness despite what he has done before but the strong point was that he was a councillor and that was a problem. You know well that he was an ANC member, which means that he was a member of SACP, he knew politics.
	Mr Morgan Phelane said something in the Truth Commission  in the Human Rights Violations that he has been encouraged by Winnie Mandela to be the councillor.  I want to challenge what he said, that he must come and explain that before this Commission that Winnie Mandela encouraged him to be the councillor. He could have come before the community because we encouraged him many times that he should step down, many times.  He didn't agree with us.  I learned last year during the Truth Commission Human Rights Violations that he was encouraged by Winnie Mandela to be the councillor.  I want to say he is lying.  If Winnie Mandela can be asked she would deny that she encouraged Mr Morgan that he should be a councillor.  If Winnie Mandela could have been at Brandfort, Winnie Mandela could have been the Accused No 1 and I could have been Accused No 2, because Winnie Mandela didn't want and informer and together with all the leadership of the ANC there was nobody who would be happy to associate himself or herself with an informer.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Menera at the beginning of your evidence you testified that Mr Phelane was regularly visited by you during the 80's to inform you of which house you should burn down or identify it and then to ask him whether it is the right thing.

N JACK MENERA: I'm sorry?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is it correct that you testified at the beginning of your evidence that when you were still on friendly terms with Mr Phelane during the whole youth movement that you regularly, or you and the comrades regularly went to Mr Phelane to find out from him whether this house could be burned down or whether something else must be done against the government. Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you go yourself?

N JACK MENERA: That's true.