Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

CHAIRPERSON: Well now you see you can't blame them.  That's the whole process as far as the Amnesty Committee is concerned.  The Amnesty Committee was not going to know that Taylor was going to die and matters of that kind.  Do you understand?  There are hundreds of matters that have to be dealt with by the Amnesty Committee.  I think we should confine ourselves not as to why the case was not heard then, let's just take the situation as it is now.  Is there anything that you think that these people are holding back?

MRS NINELA: Another thing I want to know, why does one of the applicants says they put the hands behind his head?

CHAIRPERSON: Because they did not want any identification of this body to be made.

MRS NINELA: Do you expect the hands to be blown off from the back of the head and the back of the skull to be discovered?  Can that happen?

CHAIRPERSON: Well now ...(intervention)

MRS NINELA: To blow the hands behind the head and the skull is not blown?

CHAIRPERSON: Whether they thought that so or not, the fact of the matter is that that is how it was done.

MRS NINELA: It is not that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they killed your son, it might have been slightly different, but that doesn't really matter.  As far as they were concerned they were killing a person and they were hoping that that person's body would not be identified.  That is what they were hoping to do.

MRS NINELA: Even that statement, there's no truth in it as I mentioned that they say they put the hands behind his head.  That didn't happen.  According to the bones we find.  The hands were off, the front of the head was off, but the back was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MRS NINELA: If the hands were blown from the back, the head would be blown from the back.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else which they have not said which means that they should not be given amnesty because they are holding back some important evidence?  That's the question.

MRS NINELA: I think there is much.  They know what they are hiding, I cannot say.  They know, but they are sure that there is something that they are hiding and I can't dig it out from them, because if they don't want to cough it out, they don't want to and I can't make them do it.

CHAIRPERSON: But what is it about?  You might not know, but on what point is it that you want them to reveal facts?

MRS NINELA: Why don't they just state the whole thing as it was, without beating about the bushes in other aspects?  Why don't they just state everything as it happened and everybody involved in their actions?

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, how do we know anything at all except what we are hearing?

MRS NINELA: Yes, we don't know, but they know.  But they're sure that they're hiding something, they're not giving out everything that happened as it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now please tell us, what do you think that they are hiding?

MRS NINELA: I cannot think for them, they know.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no you see it isn't enough.  You are saying that they are not making a full disclosure.  Now you must tell us what is it that they are holding back?

MRS NINELA: They don't tell every detail of what they did and they don't tell us whoever was connected with that.  They don't tell us the people who they were working with to do all this.  I know my son will never live again.  I know and I'm sure they are quite satisfied about that and are quite happy about that because I am the loser, I lost my son and my property at Inanda.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  We can't take the matter any further.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.  I just want to put it to you, Mr Ninela, that you're wrong, there was never evidence to the effect that the hands were placed behind the head of Mr Ninela when he was blown up.  That was never evidence given before this Committee or evidence that I'm aware of.  I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MRS NINELA: I have that I heard that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gabriel.

MS GABRIEL: I have no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL

CHAIRPERSON: Was there evidence to put this at rest, to your recollection was there evidence that his hands were placed behind his head before he was blown up and is it of any significance or is it a matter which you will address us on?

MS GABRIEL: If I may be permitted to check my notes during the proceedings, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair, I have no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it.  Have you any questions to ask?

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rorich, have you anything to say?

MR RORICH: Yes, Mr Chairperson, just a few matters for some clarification.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RORICH: Mrs Ninela, you said in respect of Blessing being an MK member that you know nothing of it, is that correct?  You said in respect of whether Blessing was an MK member, "I know nothing of it", is that correct?

MRS NINELA: I didn't know.

MR RORICH: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Was he what?

MR RORICH: Was he a member of the ANC at that stage?

MRS NINELA: I didn't know that.

MR RORICH: Okay then, Mrs Ninela, you said in your evidence yesterday that you heard an explosion, is that correct, on the 2nd of June?

MRS NINELA: I don't remember the date, but I heard an explosion.

MR RORICH: So how far away was the explosion from you?

MRS NINELA: It may be 3 or 4 miles away from home.

MR RORICH: And what time was this explosion, more or less, if you can remember?

MRS NINELA: At night.

MR RORICH: Time, more or less?

MRS NINELA: More or less 10.

MR RORICH: You also said that an unidentified man was found in your yard, is that correct?

MRS NINELA: Pardon?

MR RORICH: An unidentified man.  A man not known to you was found in the yard, is that correct?

MRS NINELA: Will you please put that clearer?

CHAIRPERSON: Just clear that up.  When you say he was found in the yard.

MR RORICH: Certainly, Mr Chairperson.  You said you went outside at 10 o'clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw a stranger.

MR RORICH: You saw a stranger outside, is that correct?

MRS NINELA: Yes.

MR RORICH: Was that person known to you?

MRS NINELA: Known to?

MR RORICH: Known to you, at that stage?

MRS NINELA: I didn't know him.

MR RORICH: Can you please explain to this Commission, out of all the houses in the vicinity, why would this person who was injured come to your house?

CHAIRPERSON: How would she know?

MRS NINELA: He said he wanted help, he was hurt.

MR RORICH: And how badly injured was he?

MRS NINELA: I didn't see because when I was told he was badly injured, I had a feeling as if there was cold water running down from my tummy to my legs, I decided not to look at it.

MR RORICH: And what was his explanation for being there?

MRS NINELA: He said some people shot them, with his brother.

MR RORICH: Did you call the police?

MRS NINELA: No.

MR RORICH: Did you call an ambulance?

MRS NINELA: There's no ambulance operating at that place.

MR RORICH: So if you can just explain this to the Commission correctly please.  You heard an explosion, a strange man is found in your yard.

MRS NINELA: Yes.

MR RORICH: He says he's been shot.

MRS NINELA: Yes.

MR RORICH: You don't alert the police.

MRS NINELA: How could I get to the police?

MR RORICH: Well, doesn't someone have a phone?

MRS NINELA: No.

MR RORICH: Or isn't there any other way that you can contact?

MRS NINELA: No, at night it wasn't safe for a woman to go out of the house and go to other people.

MR RORICH: What about your nephew?

MRS NINELA: Pardon?

MR RORICH: What about your nephew that you said was there?

MRS NINELA: Even with the men, it was not safe, worse with a woman.

MR RORICH: So despite the fact that you told this Commission yesterday that we must trust the police and abide by the law, you never notified the police?