Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

PETER JONES: Well, he started shouting to two coloured Security Police that were then in the room, that I must be put on the bricks, he spoke Afrikaans.  At that stage he didn't know that I also spoke Afrikaans, "sit hom op die stene", he left the room again fuming, and I was just standing around and asking these coloured Security Police if this was going to be the start.  Are they the ones who beat us up?

CHAIRPERSON: Who would they be?

PETER JONES: These were two junior coloured Security Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you not know the names?

PETER JONES: I don't know the names.  They didn't do anything to me until such time as Siebert, Niewoudt, Snyman, Marx and Beneke returned.

CHAIRPERSON: You say nothing happened until?

PETER JONES: Until they came back, the five?

CHAIRPERSON: No, who are they?

PETER JONES: Officers Siebert, Snyman, Niewoudt, Marx and Beneke.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

PETER JONES: They asked the two coloured Security Police to leave the room and I was instructed to stand on two half bricks that was then put next to each other.  I was pulled by some of them, we had a bit of a struggle, eventually I stood on the two half bricks and I was made to lift two steel chairs, one was put in reverse on top of the other, two of them lifted it and I was made to hold it above my head.

CHAIRPERSON: These half bricks on which you had to stand, I imagine a brick broken into half, it has a smooth side and a cerated edge.  On which edge would you have ...

PETER JONES: On the smooth side, narrow side.

CHAIRPERSON: You would have stood on the smooth side?

PETER JONES: Yes.

MR MTSHAULANA: Yes, continue.

PETER JONES: I was warned that if these chairs should come down or if I should let it fall, I would get it, which I interpreted as a threat and the questioning them resumed between Siebert and Snyman.

MR MTSHAULANA: In other words the two officers were asking you questions, or questioning you?

PETER JONES: The two officers continued questioning me.

MR MTSHAULANA: Were they questioning you about your statement or about something else?

PETER JONES: They were questioning me specifically about the pamphlet that they knew they had sufficient acknowledgement and evidence from independent sources, but I was required to independently confirm these things and when I continued denying that we were not involved in any pamphlet, we were in Cape Town, we had nothing to do with any pamphlet, they got very angry.
	Siebert got up and kicked me on my leg.  By that stage, the chairs have long ago come down to the level of my shoulders, because I couldn't keep it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jones, the pamphlet that you refer to, is that an Exhibit here?  Have you seen the pamphlet that we were speaking about earlier?

PETER JONES: I have seen the pamphlet only when the amnesty applications started, I have never seen it before in my life.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but are you referring to the pamphlet about which you were questioned, is it the same pamphlet?

PETER JONES: Yes, it is the same pamphlet.

MR MTSHAULANA: You say ...

ADV DE JAGER: They never confronted you with a pamphlet?

PETER JONES: No, I never saw the pamphlet.

ADV DE JAGER: How would you know it is the same pamphlet?

PETER JONES: Well, they had conditioned me over a number of days to the existence of a pamphlet, and that I should know about it.  It was never shown, it was never of course indicated where this pamphlet was.

ADV DE JAGER: I understand that, but I couldn't understand your answer that it is the same pamphlet that is now being shown to you.

PETER JONES: Well, that is as far as the evidence is of the Police that it is the same, the specific pamphlet that Steve Biko was confronted with and it was the purpose of my interrogation.

MR MTSHAULANA: But at the time that you were asked about, questioned about it, you were questioned about a pamphlet?

PETER JONES: That is correct.

MR MTSHAULANA: The document which is attached to Mr Niewoudt's application, was not shown to you?

PETER JONES: No.

MR MTSHAULANA: Your saying that it was the same pamphlet is merely a conclusion?

PETER JONES: That is correct.

MR MTSHAULANA: You say that at that time Mr Siebert started kicking you?

PETER JONES: Yes.

MR MTSHAULANA: The chairs had fallen?

PETER JONES: It fell down, one fell right to the other side and it struck Snyman and one also struck Siebert, he then started shouting, that did I want to fight, and I will get a fight.
	He started hitting me, I grabbed his hands and pulled it down and I told him that there was no need for this.  I was cooperating, I was answering their specific questions.  He then called the others, and they grabbed me.  This is now Niewoudt and Beneke, he shouted to them to again handcuff me.  I was handcuffed.
	Siebert then removed his watch, rolled up his sleeves, he approached me and started hitting me with heavy blows with open hands, left and right for a very long period, for a prolonged period.
	That very rapidly led to a most vicious assault by all five people in the room.  We had Siebert standing in front of me, and hitting my face.  We had Niewoudt on the left of me attacking my head and my back.  There was Beneke with a black hosepipe hitting me on the back and the bottom, and to the left and right of Siebert respectively ...

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Jones, could you go a bit slower - I am trying to write down what you are saying.

MR MTSHAULANA: Start again, you said Mr Siebert was hitting you with open hands on the face.

PETER JONES: To the face.

MR MTSHAULANA: Yes.

PETER JONES: Siebert was to the left - sorry Niewoudt was to the left and rear of me, attacking my head and my back.

MR MTSHAULANA: With what?

PETER JONES: With a green hosepipe.  Beneke was to the right rear, attacking my back and bottom with a black hosepipe.  And to the left and right of Siebert respectively, was Snyman and Marx who were basically delivering blows and kicking to keep me aligned, in position.
	During this massive assault, we were moving all over the room and falling all over the room and eventually I just ended up with my back turned to them, facing the wall and everybody panting and me moaning and groaning on the one side as a result.

MR MTSHAULANA: And, at the end of this assault, did you then give them the information they wanted?

PETER JONES: They asked if I was then ready to give them a statement, a satisfactory statement.  I indicated yes, they gave me paper and a pen and for the rest of that day, which was then several hours that I had, I then prepared the second statement.

MR MTSHAULANA: Would that statement be one of the statements handed in yesterday as Exhibit A?

PETER JONES: That is correct.

MR MTSHAULANA: In that statement, amongst others you write something about the pamphlet?

PETER JONES: that is correct.

MR MTSHAULANA: It was alleged by the applicant that in the statements which you wrote, or one of the statements, you implicated Mr Biko as having been the person who drew up the pamphlet or distributed it, did you hear that evidence?

PETER JONES: I heard that evidence.

MR MTSHAULANA: I would like you to take Exhibit, I would like to repeat that question, it was alleged that you and MR Titi implicated Mr Biko, did you hear that evidence, especially about Mr Titi as well?

PETER JONES: I heard the evidence.

MR MTSHAULANA: With your permission Mr Chairman, I would like to make the witness to read a passage on Exhibit I, which was handed in in the other hearing, that being the statement of Mr Titi.

ADV BOOYENS: I think it is Exhibit C in this matter Mr Chairman, it has been handed in here as well.

MR MTSHAULANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV BOOYENS: It has been handed in here as exhibit C I think.