Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Three times we've been to the court, but on the last Iwas taken because there were no witnesses, and I was then told - the Magistratetold me that he was informed by the police that he was defending himself andhe decided to shoot. The church door was full of bullet holes. Five police were giving evidence, were testifying.There were two black policemen and three white policemen. The policeman whoshot my husband, and I did see him, and I was told that that will be the endof everything. And they consoled me, they said I should forget about that, andthey didn't ask me what my plans were with my husband. Nothing was said to me.I wasn't asked anything. The next day there was another court case and I wastold that everything will stop there. Even if I don't come it doesn't matter.The policeman who shot my husband got himself a lawyer ... (incomplete - endof Side B, Tape 7) ... yes, there is a Magistrate's Court in Botshabelo.

MR LAX: Thank you. Now, since this time that your husband has diedhow have you and your family made ends meet? How have you been able to lookafter yourselves and so on?

WITNESS: I have been battling since, but my eldest sonwas working at the mines at Harmony, but he was one of those retrenched. Andone son of mine was 19 years old, he was doing standard nine, but because ofthe problems in the family he had to leave schooling, and then he was employedin the army. He worked two years and then they were also retrenched. He wasthe person helping me. He is now sick, he is at SANTA Hospital because he issuffering from tuberculosis.

MR LAX: Do you receive any pension, or grant, or anything of that kindto help you?

WITNESS: I came to Bloemfontein after receiving my husband's blue cardmoney, and then I went to the Department of Manpower. They referred me to theCommissioner at Botshabelo. They said I should tell him to help me with thechildren. I have five children who are still schooling, and the other one is here next tome. I went to the Commissioner and he wanted the children's reports from school,and then he wanted my marriage certificate, and then I gave everything to him.It took two years before I could get the money. I am presently getting moneyfor two children, but the other three I do not get anything for them. I am workingfor a black person, and this person is helping me a lot.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... information. I think at this stage I will handback to the Chairperson.

MR LYSTER: Are there any other questions from my ...(incomplete)

KHOZA MGOJO: There's no time. I just want to know the nameof the lawyer who was handling the case when it was said that you had no lawyers.I think that is important.

WITNESS: I didn't even ask who the name of the attorneywas. He was a white attorney, and there was also a black attorney, and I toldthem that I don't have any money, I don't have power, I cannot get myself anattorney.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much, Mrs Tshale. It is avery, very difficult thing to lose a husband and a father, and again we expressand extend our very deep sympathy to you both. Your husband was killed whilehe was participating in a strike, and the fact that at that time people couldbe killed while engaging on something like that tells us a lot about the lackof freedom, the lack of individual and organisational freedom which people wereexperiencing in the Free State in those days. Generally these things - thingslike that don't happen today, and if they do, if the police behave in that manner,they are far more likely to be punished than they were in the past.
The Commission will examine the documents from the court case,and we will investigate as to why the policemen that shot your husband wereacquitted, and we will convey that information to you. You have heard me earlieron today, and you've heard Dr Borain speak about what the Commission can offerto witnesses and victims who come before this Commission, and you will knowby now that we are not able to offer you immediate assistance. We will examineyour case and we will make recommendations to the President and to the Cabinet,and they in turn will give effect to those recommendations.
In the meantime we thank you again for coming here today andsharing your story with us and the whole country, and we again hope that bythe telling of that story we hope that it in some way eases the burden thatyou have had to carry. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Sir.

MR LYSTER: We thank you for being with us today, Mr Pistol.If we could just arrange the equipment so that we can communicate properly.Are you able to hear me now? Can you hear me talking to you?

MR PISTOL: Yes, I can hear you, Sir.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much. Thank you very muchfor being with us today. You have come from Thaba Nchu to tell your story. Itrelates to an assault, a brutal assault upon you which took place in February1990. Before I ask you to give your evidence I would like you please to standand to take the oath. Please stand up. Thank you.

MR PISTOL: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Pistol. I am going to ask oneof my colleagues, Mrs Virginia Gcabashe, to assist you in the giving of yourevidence.

WITNESS: I thank you, Sir.

MRS GCABASHE: I greet you, Mr Pistol. How are you thisafternoon?

WITNESS: We are still fine under the grace of God.  I want to firstthank you for appearing before us to give us exactly the kind of harassmentyou went through. We know that sometimes when we speak it's as if we are nowbringing back the pains that actually went by, but because we want the realtruth we are supposed to go back a bit and ask people to tell us their stories.Please indicate if you cannot hear me, because I will raise my voice, and Iwill ask you also to raise your voice up so that we can understand each other.It is indicated that you were born in January in 1920. --- Yes, that's correct.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you please tell us a bit about your family background.Do you have children, do you have a wife?  Tell us that kind of information.

WITNESS: Yes, I have children.Five of them passed away. The ones that are left are married. They are stayingin different places. I am now staying with the grandchildren.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you still have a wife?

WITNESS: Yes, I have a wife. We got marriedin a church.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you referring to boys and girls?

WITNESS: I have two boys.

MRS GCABASHE: Are they married?

WITNESS: No, the two boys are not yet married.The other one is still at school.

MRS GCABASHE: What is the other one doing?

WITNESS: He is at home. He is not feelingvery well. He is now deaf, he cannot hear perfectly well, and this affectedhim because he is also mentally disturbed.

MRS GCABASHE: And how many daughters do you have?

WITNESS: I have three daughters,and all of them are married. I am staying with a grandchild and another daughter.

MRS GCABASHE: In other words you have four daughters?

WITNESS: Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you briefly tell us about everything that you've put downon your statement?