Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MR LAX: Now, why would Mr Cele go and write some other total nonsense there that you say is not true?  He was writing it all in one go?  As you were talking, he was writing, isn't that so?

SIFISO MALEVU: That is so.  I do not know.

MR LAX: And when you had finished talking, he finished writing?  Correct?

SIFISO MALEVU: Please repeat that?

MR LAX: When you finished talking, he finished writing, isn't that so?

SIFISO MALEVU: That is correct.

MR LAX: And then he asked whether he should read it back to you and you said no?

SIFISO MALEVU: I said "no, I trust you, I can just sign the statement."   Since the time they arrived, we had not experienced any problems, so I had no reason to distrust him.

MR LAX: Yes.   You see, he will say he wrote exactly what you told him?

SIFISO MALEVU: I understand that.

MR LAX: Can you tell us any reason why he should make up a lie about what you told him?

SIFISO MALEVU: I am not in a position to explain.

MR LAX: He had come there to help you, to take a statement that would help you, isn't that so?

SIFISO MALEVU: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you understood that?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes, I did.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, if I may, this is a convenient spot for me to bring this up, but my instructions at all stages from the applicants were that they filled in separate application forms, and this version about the globular application, came from the affidavits themselves.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, I would like to ask you something.  Mr Mpanza makes an affidavit to which he attaches the application of the High Court?

MS MOHAMED: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday he told us that he doesn't know about the applications of Malevu and Shandu, he wasn't present when they whatever, if they did sign any documents, he wasn't present.  That cut out the idea of a globular application?

MS MOHAMED: yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But yet he says in his affidavit to the High Court that he is able to confirm their versions, how is that possible?

MS MOHAMED: On instructions received, Mr Chairman, it seems that they had discussions about the application, after the applications were made.

CHAIRPERSON: No.  These affidavits to the High Court specifically states that that paragraph in the original statement is incorrect and what in fact happened is that this witness and Shandu completed separate amnesty application forms, in terms of the Act, but yet, Mpanza says that he didn't know anything about it, he wasn't present when that occurred.  How is he then able to confirm that they completed separate application forms?

MS MOHAMED: The instructions that I received is that he didn't physically see them filling the forms in, but he ...

CHAIRPERSON: But then how is he able to confirm it?

MS MOHAMED: He says that he is aware that they said that to him, and on that basis he confirmed it.

MR LAX: As a lawyer, you know that that, if you are confirming something, you are confirming what you know?  What you saw, that is the purpose of giving evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: He says
"... the facts contained herein falls within my personal knowledge and are true and correct.  I confirm that I have read the first and second applicants' affidavits and confirm the correctness thereof in so far as they relate to me."
	How is he able to do that?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, in the first and second applicants' affidavits, they had said that they dealt with this bit about the globular application, and Mr Mpanza merely confirmed the fact that he didn't make the application on behalf of the other two.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Malevu, which incident did you apply for amnesty for?

SIFISO MALEVU: About the incident of the robbery that took place in Empangeni at Avocas Wholesalers.

MS MOHAMED: Now, you have earlier said that you have heard the evidence of Mr Mpanza, can you tell us how it is that you became involved in this incident?

SIFISO MALEVU: I was contacted by Mr Mpanza about the situation that he found himself in at the time.

MS MOHAMED: What situation was this?

SIFISO MALEVU: Firstly, the situation at Mkababa, about the violence that was going on there.   That was the first incident.
	The second incident regarded Empangeni.  That is the harassment and attack of comrades in Empangeni.

MS MOHAMED: Why did ...

MR LAX: Just before you go on.  You say he contacted you and he told you about these two things?

SIFISO MALEVU: That is correct.

MR LAX: At the same time, on the same occasion?

SIFISO MALEVU: On different occasions.

MR LAX: What did he want from you?

SIFISO MALEVU: Mr Mpanza required my assistance in helping him attend to these problems.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you, what did he need your assistance for?

SIFISO MALEVU: The most important issue was the question of acquiring firearms to assist the people who needed them, the people who were being attacked by the IFP at Mkababa, that was the first instance.  That is the sort of assistance he required from me.
	He wanted to know what idea could I come up with to help attend to this matter.

MR LAX: What did you do about it?

SIFISO MALEVU: We discussed the matter on several occasions, trying to identify places where, from which we could obtain firearms, places such as police stations.   We would go and do some reconnaissance at those places.  The people that we could meet and make progress with, were the people who sold firearms, however we did not have money to purchase them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and rob them?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and rob them of their arms, why didn't you break into a shop where they sold arms and ammunition?  That would have solved your problem immediately?

SIFISO MALEVU: We felt that was unsafe.   We did consider it.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet it was safe to go and rob a wholesalers in broad daylight, early in the morning, eight o'clock?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes, it was, although it was not a hundred percent safe, however, we felt it was safer than the places we have referred to.

MR LAX: What else did you do?

SIFISO MALEVU: Whilst we were still busy trying to solve the issue of the people of Mkababa, I think after three or four weeks, a report was brought by somebody from Empangeni.  I was not aware who that person was who brought the report to comrade Ziba.
	That person explained their situation in eSikhaweni, that things were not going well.

MR LAX: You misunderstood my question, I want to know what other steps you took to obtain firearms?  You have spoken about discussing robbing firearm shops, you have spoken about discussing police stations, you have discussed the issue of maybe buying firearms, but having no money, what other steps did you take, or is that everything?

SIFISO MALEVU: We abandoned the idea of robbing gun shops and police stations.  We felt that was unsafe, so we abandoned that idea.   A more suitable idea that crossed our minds was  ...

MR LAX: You didn't take any other steps?

SIFISO MALEVU: We did not take any other steps about robbing police stations and gun shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other steps about acquiring firearms, that is the question?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes, there were some.

MR LAX: I have asked you about five times now to tell us what other steps you took, and you haven't told us.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct there were not other steps that you discussed?

SIFISO MALEVU: The steps that we took, or the step that we took, was to go rob money so that we could buy those firearms.

MR LAX: Why didn't you take the most obvious step, the one that Mpanza says you took, which was to find, obtain the assistance of other comrades, find out about their DLBs, check what weapons they might have?  He says you did that?  You didn't do it?

SIFISO MALEVU: We did do that.