Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

MR PRIOR: Mr Fourie, do you adhere to the contents of those 
submissions contained in that statement and which is before the 
Committee and which will be considered by the Committee in its 
totality?  Do you adhere to those?

MR FOURIE: Mr Prior, yes, I do and I will refer you to the bottom 
of page 7 where I said to Mr Chairman, I mean every word I have 
said, especially in regard to bringing all the perpetrators and 
accomplices to court, and charging them.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, would you like to make your additional 
submissions.

MR FOURIE: I would like to do that if I may.  I will keep it as 
brief as possible.   I am looking at you right now, what is this, tell 
me, I am listening, what is this?  Is this a man or not?
	Right, you are men, I am a man, I will talk straight to you and 
to the Chairman.  How do you know that you fatally wounded Mr 
Jose Cerqueira, are you a seasoned or regular killer?
	You pleaded not guilty at the trial, yet you say here that you 
intended killing and wounding as many people as possible and now 
say you want amnesty.  How do I understand you?
	Mr Chairman, I do find it very difficult to accept that the 
statements given by these people are genuine, genuinely from them 
and perhaps not some concocted story to save their necks.  I am 
being blunt Sir, and I apologise if I do that, and I offend anybody, 
but I am also not apologising.
	Accepting that I was not at the scene of the crime, I still 
believe I may ask why must I believe you when you say you did not 
enter the Tavern, when you say anything for that matter because 
bearing in mind what you have admitted to, that is the killing of 
innocent people.
	I cannot believe anything you say because I cannot trust 
murderers.  Why must I believe your statement about why you think 
you should be absolved of this crime, the murder of my daughter and 
others?
	The post mortem should reveal quite accurately how close the 
killers were to the victims when they were shot.  I refer to page 12 
in the court proceedings, three young women were shot that evening 
in the Heidelberg Tavern.  It is on page 44 of the bundle.  
Bernadette Langford's heart was torn apart by the impact of the 
bullet, Lindi Anne Fourie was shot in the right hand side of the 
neck.  The bullet dragged all of the main blood veins off, and 
crushed her neck bones.  Rolanda Palm was also shot in the heart.
	If we were firing wildly, how coincidental is it Mr Chairman, 
that three of the victims were shot in positions which would 
certainly have meant virtually instant death?  I also was trained in 
the use of firearms.  It is a frightening reality that lives with me 
every day of my wife, I regret having been trained to aim at another 
human being and shoot.  I hope to God I never will have to do it.  
That is sincere and from my heart.
	The apparent attitude of the applicants and particularly the 
so-called Commander of these men, tells me that their bona fides 
could be suspect and essentially destroys their possible chances of 
being given amnesty.
	Excusme me Mr Chairman, I highlighted what I wanted to 
refer to from the notes.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR FOURIE: Surely as a soldier you were trained to have no 
regrets, so why do you now say you regret your actions, those of 
killing innocent people?  Because one of your so-called leaders, 
speaking for all of you supposedly, on page 21 of their statement 
said the following and he was here on the 7th of October.  Page 24, 
this is a Brigadier Mofokeng.  
	"We do not therefore regret that such operations took place 
and there is therefore nothing to apologise, because we 
believe of the justness of our war and the correctness of our 
struggle."
	I find that statement contrary and contradictory to what the 
objective is here today in these hearings.  I am greatly disturbed by 
that Sir and it would appear that this has been carried over to these 
people.
	Mr Madasi, your impatience was very evident whilst you were 
being asked questions by Adv Prior.  Why do you get impatient and 
bear your teeth, you are asking and if you want to receive, surely 
you need to ask in a reasonably humble and if not civilised manner 
and tone of voice.
	I would like to caution the applicants that perhaps they are 
better off in jail, than out on the street and I will just give you one 
reason.  I arrived home two days ago only to read in a newspaper 
five armed robberies in 48 hours in the little dorp where I live.  
You've got competition and I am not being flippant here.
	Beware of your attitude Mr Mabala, you are asking for 
something, something bigger than you care to think about whilst you 
were busy with your dirty work.  So it is not in your best interest to 
appear cheeky or impatient, even when your own Defence Counsel 
asks you questions, questions that you are required to answer before 
your request can even be considered.
	Now, I will say something which you might find strange, but I 
am still a person, okay, despite my anger and my hurt.  Have you 
seen an elderly person crying, look at me today, just look at this.  
To the three and all of you related to this matter, I would not like to 
be in your shoes.  I also feel very, very sorry for your parents and 
others who are interested in you because they've got to bear it with 
you and with us.  That is very difficult.
	Mr Chairman, I wrote to a few people asking them to tell us 
who Lindi Anne was because I thought perhaps the Committee here 
would like to get a different perspective onto the type of person, as 
to the type of person that Lindi Anne was.  Some of them sent you 
some of these, do you have them Mr Chairman?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, they are annexed to his statement 56 to 
61.

CHAIRPERSON: They are.