Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Captain Hechter, you have now 
heard the evidence of Brigadier Cronje.  The evidence somewhat went further than what the application 
itself states and even your application states.  Do you confirm the correctness of what Brigadier Cronje had 
said here?  Could you please speak up?

JACQUES HECHTER: I agree with you, Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, is there anything which you would like to add with regard to 
Brigadier Cronje's evidence?

JACQUES HECHTER: I could perhaps just elaborate on the circumstances at that stage in 
Kwandebele, I mean in Bophuthatswana.  
	There were constant, serious consumer boycotts ...(intervention)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, could you just stop for 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 19

JACQUES HECHTER: a moment.  You will find it in the application on page 259, I beg your pardon.

JACQUES HECHTER: There were constant consumer boycotts, transport boycotts and also we did not 
work with Joe Tsele specifically in my department, but his name surfaced in source reports that as someone 
who was involved in the organisation of such consumer boycotts.
	A lot of the busses were burnt at that time, people were forced, those who did go and work, were 
forced - or people who wanted to go and buy food and so forth were assaulted and Joe Tsele's name 
surfaced all over in these reports.	Basically in the evening you could not really move around unarmed, 
if you were not part of the comrades culture.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter the evidence was before, and also in the case of Brigadier Cronje 
before that, the files which contained the information were destroyed and that you have to rely on your 
memory?	You have already testified that as far as certain aspects were concerned, that you cannot 
remember everything, but in this particular case, can you remember on which type of serious offences Mr  
Tsele was involved and if he was involved in the death of any persons?

JACQUES HECHTER: Chairpersons, we have to accept that these boycotts in most instances led to the 
death of innocent people.  These are people who went to work, who worked in the Republic and when 
these bus boycotts were announced and any of these buses operated, they would be set alight and whoever 
was in the bus, would be stoned and seriously injured and generally they would be so badly intimidated that 
some of them would die.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 20

JACQUES HECHTER: Some of them are impossible to remember because there were literally hundreds of these cases 
between Pretoria and the area where the bus was.  This was at the bus depot.  Tsele was living near the bus 
depot in Bophuthatswana.	And it was a matter of there having been constant attacks and to remember 
them all is unfortunately impossible.  It is also 10 to 11 years ago when these incidents took place.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, the action against this house and against Tsele, was it part of the 
State's anti-revolutionary action against liberation movements?

JACQUES HECHTER: Definitely.  Tsele would have been eliminated at some stage, even if it wasn't 
that particular evening, it would have been at some other stage, but he would have been
eliminated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have got no further questions Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hechter, in this 
arson, boycotts were there any other activists in the same are who were doing the same things?

JACQUES HECHTER: Mr Chairman, we have to accept that there were other names, at this stage I 
cannot tell you who they are, where they were or when these incidents took place, it is very difficult to 
remember after 11 years.  To remember any specific incidents and names in particular.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you can tell us at that time it was Joe Tsele and so and so and so and so at that time?

JACQUES HECHTER: Joe Tsele's name surfaced so clearly because he was eliminated.  He was 
targeted and eliminated, so if other activists were acting together with him, they weren't 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 21

JACQUES HECHTER: as prominent, they didn't feature as prominently as he did and they weren't targeted to be eliminated.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now the people that you said, the said activists you said you are going to check whether 
they were in there and if found, they would be killed, were they targeted?

JACQUES HECHTER: They were not activists, they were actually trained terrorists.  Mr Tsele's house 
was used as a safe house and what happened in this instance is that returning terrorists would report to his 
house where they would get food and be informed of targets and where they would find 
their arms caches.	And if we were to have found them there, we would all have gone in and we would have 
eliminated them all.  That was the main objective of that evening.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Mr Tsele ever detained for any of these incidents mentioned by yourself, the arson, 
the boycotts and so forth?

JACQUES HECHTER: He was a subject of the Unit, he was did not fall under my direct field of 
expertise, so I did not work with Unions and if he was to have been dealt with, it would have been dealt 
with by the members of the Union Units.  What I knew about Joe Tsele is, as I told you, the information 
which you got from your informants, sometimes overflowed and all that you did, is you would contact the 
Union Unit and after you rewrote your report from your informant, you sent them a copy and said that Joe 
Tsele was there when he was spotted in this meeting.
	So you would inform people from other disciplines, you would pick up their names and then you 
would merely inform the other Units.  That is how I came to know about Joe Tsele, but I did not work with 
him directly.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 21

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were involved in the operation with Mr Cronje who told this Committee that there 
was a file but unfortunately this file has been destroyed.  Did you have access to this file because you 
operated with him?

JACQUES HECHTER: I did not see that particular file myself.  We were in the position that all our 
files are destroyed and this was done after we had left the Force.  I had already left the Force when I heard 
about the destruction of these files.  This was apparently done to protect our sources, that is why the files 
and all the information they contained, were destroyed.  It must have come from a very high ranking senior 
officer in the South African police, or even higher, I do not know.  Unfortunately I do not know and I have 
attempted to find out, but at this stage, nobody knows who issued the instruction.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You say that you joined this operation on this day on the basis of hearsay given to you?

JACQUES HECHTER: I received an instruction from Brigadier Cronje, who was my Commanding 
Officer, he said that I should come along.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But did you enquire from him what this operation entailed?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes, he did tell me.  We had a meeting where we were informed.  I knew about 
Joe Tsele and he told me what was happening, he told me that there was information that that night there 
would probably be some terrorists at that house and if we were to find them there, we would eliminate 
them all and if not, we would go back and wait and see if they did not come at a later stage.
	Information came through, it is not to say that if they said tonight the people were there, that they 
were there.  
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 22