Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever find out or were you ever told who was responsible for the killing of these people?

UNKNOWN: Actually I just thought for myself that what happened, because we were told that if we got a chance, there were people who were still inside.  Because they said we shall retreat very fast, it means therefore that something happened, so I thought maybe the people who told us to retreat very fast were the people who were responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people that told you to retreat very fast?

UNKNOWN: It was Jan Coetzee and some other white policemen whom I don't know their names.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know that they came from the Ermelo
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Security Police?

UNKNOWN: I don't understand the question, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know that these other people who were engaged in this operation were from the Ermelo Security Police?

UNKNOWN: Yes, because some of these policemen used to come to Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: ... did you know that the Ermelo Security Police were also engaged in making arrangements to kill this man?

UNKNOWN: What I can say Ermelo and Middelburg there were people who were working through the border to Swaziland.

JUDGE WILSON: And while you were still in Swaziland you were told to get out quickly, is that the position?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: By Captain Coetzee and these other white police officers.

UNKNOWN: What I said is that those were the people whom we used to report to every day.  They were inside Swaziland by then, so Almond Nofomela and Joe used to report to them in Swaziland.  So Joe and Almond they are the people who said to me that those people said we shall retreat immediately.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you report each day what you had seen keeping reconnaissance on Jabu Njowase?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they used to go and report to them, Almond and Joe.

JUDGE WILSON: They were part of the operation.

UNKNOWN: Yes, of course.

JUDGE WILSON: And on this day when you reported they said
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get out quick.

UNKNOWN: Yes, when they returned from reporting they said we shall retreat immediately.

JUDGE WILSON: And that is when Jabu Njowase and his wife were killed in a car bomb explosion.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whose car was used for the bomb?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know because no one knew amongst ourselves whose car they were using because when they planted the bomb they were not with us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mpshe, with regard to the problem that you raised, if you were to look at page 15, you will note that they say that some people were injured, other people were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR JANSEN: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before this witness steps down, are there any other matters relating to him?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, yes, there is just the one problem and that relates to the query that was forwarded to Mr Chikalanga relating to his application where he just refers to Mr Coetzee's application instead of stating things himself.  There has been no answer to the Committee's request on that.  What happened since the last - Mr Chikalanga has basically effectively been without representation since the last hearings.  I don't know whether I should deal with that by way of oral evidence or just by way of submitting an affidavit before the end of this session of the hearings.

CHAIRPERSON: Which particular item do these relate to?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, if I can refer to the letter dated
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28 October 1996 by the honourable Committee.  It asks certain questions relating to the application and then it says:
"With reference to page 7 para A4 kindly be advised that in accordance with the promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act 34 of 1995, as amended, the applicant must make full disclosure and cannot refer to someone else's application form".
In other words, that neither the further particulars sought in respect of paragraph 5A(4) has been answered at this stage.  Personally I would submit that we should deal with the matter just by way of submitting a further affidavit before the close of the session.  If, of course, Mr Chairman, with respect, you are of the view that both those incidents, theft of the vehicle and the burning of the vehicles, do not require any evidence as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, what is your reaction?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just to inform my learned friend and perhaps the Committee.  These two matters are some of the matters whereupon we have agreed that these are matters of non-gross violation of human rights and these are some of the matters that will be dealt with in chambers.  The letter that he is reading from is a letter that was asking for information for chamber purposes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then.  In order for it to be dealt with adequately in chambers we will require the affidavit which you will make available to us.

MR JANSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Then that concludes the evidence of this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may stand down.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /...
MR JANSEN	169

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mpshe, you circulated a letter in which you identified matters which need not be for hearing and then you listed them.   You submitted a list of matters which could be disposed of in chambers on paper.  Have you tried to get hold of that document?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, we even compiled matters that are not for hearing in Bundle 4.  I think my learned friend also has that letter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think I can be of assistance to my colleague.  I have got a letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that we pass on now to Mr Nofomela?   My attention has been drawn to the fact that this is perhaps a convenient time to take the adjournment.  We will resume at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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170

<UNKNOWN>: (21.1.1997)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we are in the hands of my colleague, Adv De Wet Marais.  He is going to do a confirmatorist(?) and he will be left with one matter, the Lawrence matter, which we have decided we will do to tomorrow.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Tomorrow it will be Lawrence and Maponi.

CHAIRPERSON: What number is it?

MR MARAIS: It is No 16 in the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 16, that is the last one, yes.

MR MARAIS: And No 7, the Maponya incident.

CHAIRPERSON: No 7 and No 16.

MR MARAIS: Yes, those will be left over for tomorrow.
I call the applicant, Mr Nofomela.

CHAIRPERSON: What matter are we now going to proceed with, the others?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, the applicant will confirm the contents of his affidavit with regard to the matters where Mr Mpshe could not trace victims or relatives of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you will place on record, Mr Mpshe, that in all the matters we are about to concern ourselves with are matters in which there are no other interested parties present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman, I confirm that.

MR A NOFOMELA: s s

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, a supplementary affidavit was also filed by this applicant dealing with two matters of gross violations and that is being handed up to you now.  Those two matters were not included yesterday in the list that Mr Mpshe read out to you of the incidents that will be
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confirmed.  So matters No 17 and 18 in the supplementary affidavit will also now be confirmed by this witness.

UNKNOWN: Only for clarity.  Are you going to deal now with matters 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17 and 18?

MR MARAIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.  The first matter then is No 5 on typed page 8 of the affidavit.