Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR WESSELS: Yes.  And wasn't it of a similar nature on the evening of the party where you told you that he'd missed you but next time you must watch your move?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Gakkie basically came and confronted us, he wanted to fight, we walked away and that is what he told us.  It wasn't just as simple as talking, he wanted to physically attack us.

MR WESSELS: But he said that next time he'll get you, as if he could get you with a bomb or something like that.  That's the impression you gained.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.

MR WESSELS: Wasn't that just a matter of "groot praat"?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't think so.  I know Gakkie for a very long time, Sir, so I don't think so.  But I'm not fearful of him as a person.

MR WESSELS: If it hadn't been "groot praat", then surely you would have been afraid because you thought that he had the assistance of the State, in your mind you knew or heard that he put off the bomb, then you must have been scared of him.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Scared of his connections, not scared of Gakkie.  There's a big difference.  But you can infer that ...(indistinct), but I'm not scared of him.

MR WESSELS: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the lunch adjournment now, thank you.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, sorry, can we just get an indication because if we have to re-arrange flights, how long we're going to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know at all, there's still questioning to be done by Mr Hockey, Mr Williams, Mr Coetzee, Mr van Eck.

COUNSEL: Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions and I'm likewise going to ask whether I can be excused, I believe this anyway has nothing to do with my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

COUNSEL: At this stage Mr Chairman, I can also indicate that after Mr du Plessis I've got no further questions.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I can just indicate I'll be five minutes, no more than that.

MR MARTINI: If they can be finished by 2 o'clock, then I would suggest we carry on through the lunch hour and adjourn at two.

CHAIRPERSON: There will also be re-examination by Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: ;  ...(indistinct - no microphone) 15 minutes, I'm sure that we ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Do we want to proceed now and then break for lunch.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, try and finish.  I would like to accommodate my learned friends.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just thankful that we didn't carry on last night, we would have sat till after midnight I think.  Yes, we'll carry on then.  Mr Williams, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Alexander?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes thank you, Mr Chairman, just a few questions.
	Oesman, do you know who was Peaches' attorney at the stage where he revealed his involvement with the CCB?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think it was Mr Adams and/or Mr Joshua.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that the same Mr Adams or Joshua that you referred to in your earlier evidence?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Adams and/or Mr Joshua, is that one person with two names, or is it two different people?

MR WILLIAMS: Two different people.

CHAIRPERSON: From the same company or completely apart?

MR WILLIAMS: Same firm I think, at the time.
	Would you agree that the name is actually Huxley Joshua and not Joshua ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sorry, I get confused, but it's Huxley Joshua.

MR WILLIAMS: And in what year did you join the Kewtown Youth Movement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Either late '82 or early '83.  1983 or '82.

MR WILLIAMS: And then in a statement you mentioned names of people that attended the Cayco meeting.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Naziema Mohamed is one of the names that you mentioned, do you know where Naziema Mohamed lived at that stage?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I knew where she lived.

MR WILLIAMS: Where?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She lives in District 6, or the - adjacent to District 6.

MR WILLIAMS: That's close to Cape Town, not so?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Cape Town, ja.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you think in the normal course of events that she would have walked to Athlone?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, she would not have walked to Athlone.

MR WILLIAMS: Fatiema Omar, where did she live at that stage?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She lived in the Thornhill/Gatesville area, Rylands, which is also about 7 or 8 kilometres away from where the centre is.

MR WILLIAMS: Shanaaz Limera, where did she live?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Shanaaz Limera lived in Hanover Park and that was even a bit further away.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you think that Shanaaz or Fatiema would have walked from their homes to Kewtown?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, they would not.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how they got from their homes to Kewtown?  Did they catch a taxi or did they come in a car driven by themselves, or what?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's either a car driven by themselves or they would, one of the other executive members from their branch would bring them or drop them.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying "would" or do you know?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That was the norm.

MR WILLIAMS: Miranda Abrahams, did she live in Kewtown?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She lived in Silvertown.

MR WILLIAMS: Regina Isaacs, did she live in Kewtown?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, she didn't live in Kewtown either.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you've stated - Mr Martini asked you something relating to possible reconciliation with Slang van Zyl, did you discuss this issue with all of the victims, or are you assuming that people would not want to reconcile with him if you'd want to reconcile with him?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm assuming from their actions, because he's telling the - he's not telling the truth here.  We're sitting in the audience, we're not discussing it, you can see their body language, the way they react.  So in my opinion they would not reconcile with him.

MR WILLIAMS: Now do I understand that to mean that you do not, or that you cannot state as a fact that the other victims would not want to reconcile?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You are correct, Sir.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr du Plessis has shown you certain untested statements of some of the soccer people that were in the building that night.  Are you sure that the version that you've given to us here is the correct version?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's the correct version, it's the truth.  You can't bend the truth, it's absolute.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know whether Dr Boesak had ever been detained under the emergency regulations?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I can't recall, but he might have been.

MR WILLIAMS: Or do you know whether Dullah Omar had ever been detained under the emergency regulations?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think he was picked up on a number of occasions.

MR WILLIAMS: Does it therefore follow that he was involved in violent actions?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, that's - being picked up and being detained without trial doesn't mean that you have ever been involved in anything.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is a question of argument, I don't think we need evidence on that.

MR WILLIAMS: And then my last question to you is, why would you want to conspire with a group of people to falsely implicate anyone, what do you stand to gain from it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I stand to gain nothing, I just want the truth.  Hurt.  And I want them to admit to the truth, that's all, so that we can reconcile.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Williams.  Mr Hockey?

MR HOCKEY: Thank you, I've just got two aspects that I want to clear up.
	Mr Alexander, when you were at the Early Learning Centre, did you see Gakkie at all there that evening?  Before the bomb.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I can't recall, I came a bit late.  I don't think I saw him.

MR HOCKEY: So you're not aware of the discussion he had with Mr Williams?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.