Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

WHITE MOHAPE: I, let me answer this one in this fashion.  When a security branch member comes to you and then he introduce himself as a security branch member sent to come and collect you, that in itself, it is, it give me the latitude to say, yes, they are security branch members.
	Let me take a scenario where, for instance, there were tsotsis.  Who the hell the tsotsi will know that I have been detained at Bayswater Police Station, who a tsotsi will know that when I was detained I had R160,00 in my pocket, who a tsotsi will then say to me we are coming to you, we have been sent by the security ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... branch to come and fetch you?  That in itself, to me, confirmed that these people, yes, they have been sent by the security branch to pick me up.  That is why it was easy for me to just get into the car and for them to take me home.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Also, is it not so that on the way they asked you about your political activities ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... about Cosas and its ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... affiliation to the UDF?

WHITE MOHAPE: Exactly, because I am saying if a tsotsi will want to rob me, he will just, he could have just robbed me in, right inside town or inside the car and say take out your money, we want your money and all that, but for the fact that they were able to ask me about my involvement in Cosas, they were able to ask me about, you know, the relationship of Cosas and UDF and UDF and ANC, that in itself.

ADV DE JAGER: That is exactly why I referred to the R160,00.

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

MR VISSER: May I continue Mr Chairman?
	Yes, I have listened carefully to what you say, there is merit in what you say, Mr Mohape, but let me put a concern to you.  I was given to understand, perhaps incorrectly, that you were arrested by the police apart from the fact, apart from the time when Mr Ngo was injured, you were arrested for your political activities.

WHITE MOHAPE: Many a times, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, because of the fact that you were on the executive of Cosas?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And, perhaps, your association with the UDF, I do not know ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: ... whatever.  And when they arrested you and detained you was that the kind of question they would ask you, are you a member of Cosas, are you on the executive of Cosas ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: No.

MR VISSER: ... is Cosas affiliated to the UDF?  Is that the kind of questions they would ask you?

WHITE MOHAPE: There are a lot of questions that they will ask more than that.

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: They will ask me specifically about my involvement with the ANC, they will ask me about being their informer and promising me heaven and earth.  These were the kinds of things that they were capable to do and is, they were doing them, because they had all the manpower to do whatever they wanted to do at that time.

MR VISSER: Yes.  At ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: There is only one further thing I want to ask you about these four people in the inn.

WHITE MOHAPE: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Your conversation in the vehicle ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: ... was it in English, in a, in Sotho or what was the langauge used?

WHITE MOHAPE: Well, well, you see, when you meet people and when they talk to you they use, you know, Sotho or English.  It is very unfortunate.  You know these things when they, when that happened, it is unfortunate, but I will say, yes, they mixed the language, they spoke Sotho, they spoke English, you know, and I think the other one on the left-hand side, the left-hand, was also speaking Tswana, you know.  They mixed, because ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... that is the kind ...

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us the two people, were they Black people or White people?

WHITE MOHAPE: They were Black.

ADV DE JAGER: And they were joined by other people?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you say whether those were Black or White?

WHITE MOHAPE: Those who joined them, they were also Black, because, you see, when a person is having a balaclava, you give, you can, in between the (...indistinct) see his eyes and the flesh, you see, this one is Black or White.  Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	And, let me just ask you this, when you were arrested and you would ask, you would be asked by the security branch members questions, as we have just discussed, what was your stand on that?  Would you give them the information or would you refuse to co-operate?  Is, what was your stand, because I will tell you why I am asking you.  We have heard witness after witness after witness who came into the witness box and said they were asked to identify people from photographs, they were asked questions about their activities and they refused to co-operate.  Now I want to know what was your stand?

WHITE MOHAPE: You see, my stand was simple.  I knew how the security branches, they were operating and the type of tactics they use in trying to get information amongst people and I knew, yes, I was one of those students who were leading Cosas and it was not easy for them to get whatever information they wanted except in a situation where they will beat me, but every time I was polite with them.

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: But they were unable to get what they wanted from me.

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: And their aim, still at that time, because I remember at one time I was shown a room and that room had, you know, all the t-shirts of UDF and all that and it have some book and I was shown a book with photos of cadres of ANC who had died and I was told if I do not co-operate with them I am going to end like them.  So, everything, I was prepared always for them to do anything if they wanted to do it and that is, that was the attitude I will always, they will see me as arrogant, I do not know, but I will always not give the information they want.

MR VISSER: I think you have more than 50% answered my question, but I want to make absolutely certain that you know what I am asking you.

WHITE MOHAPE: What are you asking?

MR VISSER: I am asking you this question, if the security branch would ask you, Mr Mohape, do you admit that you are a member of the executive of Cosas.  What would you have said to them?  Would you have said ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

MR VISSER: ... yes or would you have said I am not co-operating?

WHITE MOHAPE: Okay.  Let me quickly answer that one to you.  I will say yes and I will tell you why I will say yes, because my role in Cosas was not a situation where I will hide my involvement with Cosas and in 1993 we deliberately took a decision to publicise executive members of Cosas in Bloemfontein and for one reason.  For a reason that security branch will come to me and tell me that so and so said I am a Chairman and then at that time I will say, no, I am not a Chairman and then they will go that person and say, yes, why are you saying you are the secretary and then that person would say, no, White is lying and when we meet as a Cosas members we will then argue amongst ourselves to say other people are selling out, because they are telling security branch members that we are Chairpersons, whatever, but in 1993, 83 we took a decision to say we are, after the election of Cosas here, we took a decision here that we are going to publicise members of Cosas executive so that they are known.  So, it is as simple as that.  I will never hide my position in Cosas.

JUDGE WILSON: Now you changed your evidence in the course of the evidence.  Was it 93 or 83?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no it is, I mean, history will tell you that Cosas, during those time it was 1983.

JUDGE WILSON: Eighty three?