Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: So one would then imagine if, let's give it the top, ten minutes that you waited, it would have taken about another twenty/twenty five minutes to drive to Winkelspruit, more-or-less.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would have been half an hour, forty minutes afterwards.  And you said it was about seven, it had just got dark, so we more-or-less know then it's seven to eight, eightish, somewhere around there.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	And when you arrived at Winkelspruit, were there other vehicles parked there near the building?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: Can you just give us a description of the vehicles that were parked there.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The white men would come with their own cars, most of them owned cars and there were kombis, private cars and our kombi was also there.

MR HUGO: Yes, I'm actually more interested in the kombis.  How many kombis were parked there?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: There was a panel van and our kombi, there was also another kombi, their kombi.  If I'm not mistaken I can say there were three or four.

MR HUGO: Kombis?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, kombis.

MR HUGO: And how far were these kombis parked from the building where the interrogation took place?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: They were parked opposite to the place where we were sleeping.

MR HUGO: Yes, but distance-wise, how far were they away from the building?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could indicate if you can recall, Mr Mbane, the closest one that was parked to the veranda where you eventually got to, how far would that have been from the veranda?  If you can indicate a distance in this room.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think eight to ten metres from where we were sleeping, from the veranda.

MR HUGO: That was the one kombi, and the other ones, how far were they away?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: All the cars were being parked on that area.

MR HUGO: And when you arrived there, what did you and Mr Radebe and Mr Dube do?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We got out of the car, we went to the veranda, we stayed there, we drank alcohol and they would come out of the room and ask us questions.

MR HUGO: Did you at any stage get into one of the kombis during that evening, during the procedures that were taking place?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I cannot remember, but what I can still remember is that after some time, Simon Radebe is the one who went to the car.

MR HUGO: No, but I'm interested in your situation, did you ever get into the kombi?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: Is it possible?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say that you sat there and you were drinking alcohol, did you get under the influence of that alcohol?  Did you become drunk?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we did not.

MR HUGO: Yes, that was my next question.  When you say "we were drinking, were you referring to yourself, Dube and Mr Radebe?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: All three of you were drinking?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Dube would drink occasionally, on certain times, he was not drinking like us.

MR HUGO: Ja, you see why I'm asking you is because there was evidence that Mr Dube had to drive the vehicle at one of the meetings with Ms Kubheka, just specifically for the reason that he didn't use alcohol, can you remember that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I heard about that evidence.

MR HUGO: Now why would he then now all of a sudden start drinking at Winkelspruit in the presence of your seniors?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Dube was drinking sometimes, but he was not drinking like we did.

MR HUGO: Well what do you mean, "he wasn't drinking like we did", were you drinking a lot?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He would drink occasionally.

MR HUGO: No, this particular evening, how much were you drinking?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: A few tots.

CHAIRPERSON: A few tots of what?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Whisky.

MR HUGO: And where did this come from?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: In our base there was alcohol all the time.

MR HUGO: And  would you say that Mr Radebe was intoxicated?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No.

MR HUGO: And yourself?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No.

MR HUGO: But one thing however is clear, that you can vividly recall that the three of you were at the veranda and you were drinking?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: Let me just put it to you that this was once more never put to any of the other witnesses.  It was never put to Mr Radebe, he never had the opportunity to respond to that.  Why was this not done?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know.

MR HUGO: And what's more, it doesn't appear in your statement, is there any reason as to why you didn't mention it in your statement?  I'm referring to your statement in volume 1 on page 128.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Maybe it is something that I just didn't mention.

MR HUGO: How long did the interrogation last for?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think an hour, or an hour to two hours.

MR HUGO: And at what stage did Mr Radebe get into the kombi?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were drinking and then he said that he was tired, he went to the kombi as he was sleeping there.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think, after the interrogation started, could you give an estimate, you said that lasted one to two hours, how long was Mr Radebe there with you on the veranda while the interrogation was taking place?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think it was thirty to forty five minutes after the interrogation had started.

MR HUGO: And you then afterwards went to sleep and you slept there on the veranda, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Dube and I slept there.

MR HUGO: And you had been drinking and I take it you slept well and you were fast asleep?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were drinking, but we were not drunk.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you go to sleep, actual sleep?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: After the cars had left with the body we slept, after all of them together with Miyeza, after they left.

MR HUGO: Yes.  You heard Mr Radebe saying that he then left for CR Swart and that's where he spent the night, isn't it possible that whilst you were asleep that he might have departed with the kombi and gone to CR Swart without you having noticed that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is not so, that is not true.

MR HUGO: And why are you saying it's not true?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Hugo, just to correct the record, he did concede at a later stage under questioning from myself that it might have been the next morning that he left.

MR HUGO: Yes, that is indeed so.

MR LAX: So I wouldn't be too firm on this issue.

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Be that as it may, is it correct that you then at some stage said to Mr Radebe that you heard that Ms Kubheka died of a heart attack?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I'm the one who told Simon, because at that time he was already in the car.

MR HUGO: And were you then on your way to CR Swart?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we were still there in the base when I told him.

MR HUGO: Yes and then just one final aspect that I want to get clarity on, after this operation how many days did you spend here in Durban before you went back to Vlakplaas?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Two or three days.

MR HUGO: Let me, just for completeness sake, put it to you that Mr Radebe said he was the driver of the vehicle when you met Ms Kubheka at the railway station and when she was taken to Battery Beach, are you still adamant that he's wrong and you're right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I'm saying is that I was the driver of the car.

MR HUGO: And you heard Mr Radebe saying that he never heard any screams during this interrogation, are you still of the opinion that he must have heard her screaming?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He must have heard the screams.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions that you'd like to put?