Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR MALINDI: You have heard the evidence being led here.  If Betty was arrested at one stage and released in December of 1987, from your knowledge of her, is she a person who would have contacted you or not afterwards?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, she could have contacted me.

MR MALINDI: And is your evidence that from about the end of November, beginning of December 1987, you never heard anything from her?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I never had contact with her since then.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malindi.  Mr Visser, any questions?

MR VISSER: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I didn't understand exactly what dates you were referring to.  Is it correct, first of all, that you made a statement which might be shown to you at page 40 of the bundle, apparently a type-written copy of a statement which you made to a Mr M M Mbete?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you recognise that as a true type-written copy of the statement which you made to him?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And has this statement been shown, or read to you, before you came to give your evidence here today?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I saw the statement previously, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Right.  You see, in paragraph 4 you said
"Betty Boom left the country"
that is the Republic of South Africa,
"in 1979."
Is that correct?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you say in paragraph  6 she was working hard for the ANC.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you also know that Betty Boom was trained in military warfare and that she had become an MK soldier?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I knew, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did she tell you that?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes she did.

MR VISSER: And were you aware that what she was doing in Lesotho, was organising for raids or missions into South Africa for attacks?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I did not know that chairperson.

MR VISSER: I see. Now from 1979, did I understand you correctly that the first time that you made contact, or you made contact with each other since that was in 1985, of did I misunderstand you?  86, sorry, in December 1986.  That was the first time since 1979 that you made contact?

MS NGONO: That is correct, Chairperson, that was for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was she  in December 1986, Betty Boom?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She informed me that she was in the Free State, but she did not mention a particular place where she was.

MR VISSER: 1986.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you know, or did she tell you at any stage that she was going for military training somewhere outside the country?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She did not tell me that Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you know or were you told by anyone at any stage that she was at some stage in Lusaka in Zambia?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't know that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now I want you please to explain and that's why I'm asking these questions to you, you say that you met or had telephonic contact with Betty Boom on ten occasions up to 1987, is that what you said?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, that's what I said.

MR VISSER: And is that since 1979, or is that since December 1986?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: From 1986, that is when we started to contact one another.

MR VISSER: And you said, if I'm not mistaken, that when she contacted you in December 1986, she was somewhere in the Free State?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And where were you then?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I was at home.

MR VISSER: Where is that?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: In Rocklands.

MR VISSER: Where in Rocklands?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: 6601 Rocklands, Free State.

MR VISSER: Now you see, that's the point.  Your sister contacts you after seven years, being away for seven years, she says to you:  "I'm somewhere in the Free State".  Didn't you want to know why she didn't come and see you?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: The way occasions were, I met her personally.

MR VISSER: No, no, please Ms Seyoe - how do you pronounce your surname?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Seyoe.

MR VISSER: You hadn't seen her for seven years, we've established that clearly.  Out of the blue in December 1986 she contacts you.   Were you happy to hear from her?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, I was happy.

MR VISSER: She tells you that she's somewhere in the Free States.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, she did tell me that.

MR VISSER: Don't you ask her:  "Where are your, are you in Bloemfontein, where are you?"

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I did Chairperson, but she told me that she's somewhere in the Free State and thereafter we met personally, after that first telephonic conversation.

MR VISSER: Did she come to your house to meet with you?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: No, she did not come at home.  We made an appointment to meet somewhere, we did not meet at home.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Where is this somewhere where you met?

MR LAX: The question was, where did you meet?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: At time she would be at the corner next to the tarred road, then I would go there and meet her.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, where?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: The third street from where I was staying.

MR VISSER: I see.  Alright.  So obviously for security reason I assume, she didn't come to your house and you met secretively somewhere on a road, is that your evidence?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now did that occur from December 1986 onwards?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct, Chairperson, but there were times when - we were not meeting, you know, on a daily basis.

MR VISSER: Well, you're a person that can remember that you met her exactly ten times.  Will you please tell us, did you meet her in January 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I'm not able to recall, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: February 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't recall when did we meet after she phoned in 1986 December.

MR VISSER: Did you meet her at any stage on the street before September 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I think we met before September.

MR VISSER: How sure are you of that?  Remember you said you met her ten time.

MR LAX: She didn't say she met her ten times.  She said she had contact with her, including the meetings, ten times.

MR VISSER: That - I stand corrected, quite correct.  you had ten contacts with her.  Let me ask you this then - you're absolutely correct, Commissioner Lax, I do apologise.  These ten contacts that you had, both on the telephone and meeting her, how many times did you actually meet her, of those ten contacts?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I'm not able to tell how many times did we contact on the phone, so our personal contact is plus or minus ten times, but I don't remember how many times did we contact each other telephonically.

MR VISSER: Are you now saying that you had personal meetings with her on ten occasions since December 1986?

MR LAX: No, she said telephonic.

CHAIRPERSON: The ... and clarify that the interpreter said there were ten personal contacts and telephonically.  Did I hear you ....

INTERPRETER: She says they met personally more than ten times, but she's not able to recall how many times did she have a telephonic contact with her.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: She doesn't remember how many times they had telephonic contact, but personally, they met more than ten times.

MR VISSER: Well that's almost what I heard, but I didn't hear the more than ten times.  I only heard ten times, there were ten personal contacts, that's what I heard, I don't know whether the translation was correct or not.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I heard through the translation Mr Visser.