Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-09

CHAIRPERSON: Again I think I must intervene here Mr Jansen.  With great respect I can quite appreciate that there is a sense in which you might be laying the basis for what your client would say, Dirk Coetzee would say, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you have specific instructions, overall instructions in terms of perhaps you want to say that whatever Dirk Coetzee said or did, he acted on instructions, either implied or express authority. That's what it is all going to boil down to, that is what I would like to have. I am not in a position to allow any more cross-examination on the basis of which we are not able to see in what way you are serving the interests of your client Dirk Coetzee.

MR JANSEN: Alright, good.  My instructions are that from a point of view of Vlakplaas the services of the technical division was used regularly and it just could happen to use those technical people if that had been cleared out at the sectional level.  Was that while Dirk Coetzee was in charge?

UNKNOWN: I think at that stage the technical section had very little to do with Vlakplaas. I think you should ask them.

MR JANSEN: Further it is so that the members at Vlakplaas received awards or certificates or even medals for certain operations.  Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Was that during Coetzee's time?

MR JANSEN: During his time financial remuneration was given after operations, but I don't want to go into detail. From the top echelons people were rewarded financially or by means of other awards.

UNKNOWN: I know of just one case where that had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen do you have any instructions from Dirk Coetzee which this particular witness can give the reply to?  Otherwise I'm going to have to curtail your cross-examination.  I'm very serious about that.  In fact if you don't put to him to him what your instructions are, I would with great respect have to say that you should now bring your questioning to a close.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman let me put my instructions to him.
 My instructions are once again that it was very clear from the lower levels that the operations at Vlakplaas were not only known to yourself but also the higher echelons, that means to the top, to the commander of the Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: Yes certain of these operations were known to everybody.

MR JANSEN: And my instructions were that these also included the illegal actions.

UNKNOWN: Can you be more specific?

MR JANSEN: I don't want to refer to things implied in the amnesty applications but at this stage operatives of Vlakplaas are applying for amnesty for many incidents and those incidents are not reflected on your level and on the level of the generals. In other words there is a denial of knowledge.

UNKNOWN: Are we referring to operations during Dirk Coetzee's time or operations ...(intervention)

MR JANSEN: I'm referring to Dirk Coetzee's time.  The tendency is the same whether it was during his time or at other stages, is that these things are false and the circumstances can prove that it is false.

UNKNOWN: I'm sorry.  I don't know what the ontkenning is wat false is nie, this witness has actually conceded every question that my learned friend has put to him, so I don't know what the basis is of my learned friend accusing this witness of giving false evidence or making false denials. But Mr Chairman it's quite clear now that what my learned is doing, is he's laying a basis as corroboration for his witness' evidence in the amnesty application,  I therefore now formally make an objection to his evidence and I now ask you to terminate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Your objection is sustained.  Mr Jansen do you have any other questions to put to this witness on the basis of which you want to say about your client's interests?

MR JANSEN: No Mr Chairman if I'm stopped from asking questions which corroborate statements made ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't ask you that question Advocate Jansen, with great respect, I have not asked you that question.  I've asked you if you've got any further questions on the basis of which you want to safeguard the interests of your client.  Are there any instructions which you have which you can put to this particular witness?

MR JANSEN: Well yes Mr Chairman but I accept that they would be in the same vein as my previous questions.

CHAIRPERSON: In which event those questions must be disallowed.

MR JANSEN: Then I accept it, then I don't ask anymore questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  In which event, are there any questions arising out of these questions?

MR GOOSEN: I have no questions arising Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Visser?

UNKNOWN: Yes we have no re-examination Mr Chairman. The only request we have is that might we also be excused from further attendance this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.
 Shall we then call the next witness Mr Goosen?

MR GOOSEN: Sorry to prolong this Chairperson, just an issue arising out of the questioning.  Sorry Brigadier to delay you from leaving, just one issue that's arisen out of Mr Jansen's questioning and that goes along the issue of - you indicated that there were some operations, that would have been unlawful, that authorisation would have come from your seniors and all I'm asking is who would those seniors have been?  Which individuals?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman there's a problem with that, as I intimated to you this morning at the inception, we have a problem with cross-border raids and my witness tells me that it has to do with those, with respect Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: With respect, you've just put that issue on, I wasn't being specific about what kind of operations they were.

UNKNOWN: But the problem is that you've asked him for names and he's turning to his lawyer and he's saying these are the names that are involved in cross-border raids and this is the problem which we mentioned earlier today Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: Alright let's leave aside the cross-border raids.  Were there any other unlawful activities internally that were authorised by your seniors?

UNKNOWN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: Without going into the details of those specific incidents, which seniors authorised them?

UNKNOWN: General van der Merwe.

MR GOOSEN: Who else.

UNKNOWN: This is all I know of.

MR GOOSEN: What about General Smit?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR GOOSEN: Are you saying no you can't remember or ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: No, not as far as I know.

MR GOOSEN: So you just aren't sure?

UNKNOWN: No I'm certain.  He did not give any authorisation.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I had thought that by half past three you would have gone home Brigadier, but thank you very much again for having come, and I am quite certain that your testimony has enhanced our body of knowledge.  You of course will expand on some of the things that you have been talking about when you appear on your amnesty application.
 You are excused as well as your legal representatives.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman although my attorneys instructed me to listen to the next witness' evidence, but I thank you for excusing me anyway.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, perhaps whilst Mr Visser is listening to the next witness' testimony he could consider whether I satisfied him.  He made an appeal earlier this morning that I shouldn't be adversarial, I hope I hope that I've managed to live up to his ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: I forgot Mr Chairman, I have to congratulate my learned friend on living up to all expectations. Thank you Mr..

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can we now have Major Sarel Crafford.  I have welcomed you Mr Britz and we saw each other during the course of the day.

SAREL DU PLESSIS CRAFFORD: (sworn states)

MR GOOSEN: Mr Britz is that your counsel with you, if you'd just place yourself on record?