Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: In fact we understand that they yielded, thinking that they were going to be interrogated, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: They were even taken to the - they were even sent to this outside farm on the pretext that they were going to be interrogated.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: So right up to that stage Mr van Rensburg - sorry, Mr Erasmus, would not have thought there's something wrong if he discovered you at that stage, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not at that stage.

MR PHOSA: And what was your attitude - what was you knowledge, did you know him to be in favour of eliminations?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in the sense that we had - how would one say, discussed this matter of the message that had siphoned through from the top - statement that had been made etc., and the pressure from above.

MR PHOSA: You are referring to your having discussed - before you actually decided to kill these, your having discussed the message from the top - you and him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we discussed with each other the fact that this was clearly the message that was passed on from above.

MR PHOSA: When was this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That was shortly after I had arrived here, the beginning of 1981.

MR PHOSA: But it appears that until a few days or let's say a week before the 14th of April 1982, you did not again discuss elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: But ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is that so?  This was - you've said you discussed elimination when you first arrived in 1981.
	You've now put to him that he didn't discuss it again till 1982, haven't you?

MR PHOSA: That's what I asked.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you know that that is not so don't you because we know that they murdered Kondile in 1981.

MR PHOSA: I apologise, I should have been warned by the witness.
	You know I'm getting problems now because you didn't advise me.  So you did discuss elimination then in the Kondile matter.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR PHOSA: But then after the Kondile matter - sorry, what was the date of the Kondile matter?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I speak under correction but I think it was in August 1981.

MR PHOSA: From that date on, you did not discuss further until about a week before the elimination of these two - sorry, discussing elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not regarding specific cases that certain persons by name had to be eliminated but we possibly in general discussion among ourselves had discussed this, that this was something that in future might arise again as a consequence of the developments in the security situation in the country in general.

MR PHOSA: You are saying this is what you possibly discussed after the Kondile matter?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: Now before - after the Kondile matter but before the seven days or so, you have no specific recollection of your discussing these two gentlemen from a point of view of elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not with Mr Erasmus.

MR PHOSA: Now you already knew then the attitude of Mr Erasmus, that he doesn't mind people being killed.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wouldn't state it like that, I know Mr Erasmus as a person who have used and tried all other options before resorting to that kind of step.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, I - my question should have included that I meant, you knew insofar as he was convinced that elimination is the solution, he would not object.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I felt free to go to him with such a proposal or problem, I can't say that Mr Erasmus would in all instances have given permission but in the cases where I did go to him, he did give permission.

MR PHOSA: When you say in the cases that you had approached him he had given permission, are you referring to these two - these two only?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: No, no, then I am dealing with the situation before the second one, I'm just saying that you knew at that stage that his attitude was: "If he must go then he must go".

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: So if therefore on the basis of need to know, you and the other two juniors had decided to get rid of these two?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: With respect that's not the evidence, that it was him and the other two juniors, it was never suggested that Niewoudt was part of the decision.

MR PHOSA: I'm sorry, I speak carelessly because it was not my client, I'm sorry.
	Who, you and du Plessis - yes, but it is correct what I - what I have in mind is correct.  If you and the other two juniors had gone ahead to eliminate these two without the knowledge of Mr Erasmus, you can't expect him to be very, very bitter when he got to know that you had done it - in the light of previous conduct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot say whether he would have taken exception or not.  My feeling was that he might have because we are loyal to one another, we trust one another - that on that basis he would have taken exception.  Please also remember there were other things - I'll give an example, if we "abduct people", then you could have had witnesses seeing us driving off with them and suddenly these people disappear and then when we are also missing, then the media, family, attorneys would approach Mr Erasmus and now he knows nothing - he has no facts.  This is what I have thought of at that point in time.  If it was correct or not but this was my reasoning why I also had to obtain his permission in this specific instance.

MR PHOSA: Had you ever discussed elimination as a concept with Mr Niewoudt?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Never, in fact never because the message was conveyed to him by Mr du Plessis.

MR PHOSA: When did you mention for the first time to Mr Niewoudt, the concept of eliminating - of elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I did not mention this concept of elimination personally to him.

MR PHOSA: Did you - you personally and Mr Niewoudt, ever speak about what was going to be done before it was done - regarding these two?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: When?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Maybe a day or two before they were abducted.

MR PHOSA: Were you telling him or were you finding out from him if he knew?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, he knew, he was already informed by Mr du Plessis.

MR PHOSA: Yes but as between you and him, you and Mr Niewoudt a day or two before the incident, what were you talking about regarding the incident - the elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well we got together, the three of us - I cannot actually remember exactly what I have mentioned, I thought he knew - du Plessis informed him, so what we did was we talking about the implementation aspects.  In other words how will get hold of these people without somebody knowing and how exactly will we eliminate them, this was what we've discussed.

MR PHOSA: As far as you were concerned then, you had no way of knowing whether Mr du Plessis - Mr Niewoudt was not a risk?  I'm talking about the need to know basis, you personally had no knowledge?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not personally, I did not personally know that.

MR PHOSA: Did you say to Mr du Plessis: "Man this is a risky affair, now why do you include a junior, is he safe"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I told Mr du Plessis to nominate another person or even approach another person to execute this task.  I left it up to him since he's been here in the Eastern Cape for a longer period than myself, he knew the people much better here.