Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR LAX: Yes, that is what I thought how you put it in the past, but you just put it in a peculiar fashion this time and I suddenly wanted to be clear about that.

MR SAMUEL: I am sorry.    May I proceed Mr Chairman?   Mr van der Westhuizen, Jimmy's evidence will be that on the day in question he was instructed to bring Ms Khubeka to Battery Beach, have you got anything to say to that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Could you repeat that please?

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy Mbane will say that he was instructed to bring Ms Khubeka to Battery Beach?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot testify about what his orders were.  I was not present during his briefing.

MR SAMUEL: He will say when he got to Battery Beach with Ms Khubeka, you, Mr Botha and the others were in the kombi?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: He will also tell this Commission that present in the vehicle with Ms Khubeka, was Mr Dube and Mr Radebe?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason why you can recall Mr Mbane's presence, but not the presence of Mr Radebe or Mr Dube?  Is there any reason why you can remember only one and not more than one of them?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I have no reason for that, that is my recollection.

MR SAMUEL: He will also tell the Commission that in fact he was not driving the motor vehicle but rather Mr Radebe was driving the motor vehicle on the day in question and even at the time when they arrived at Battery Beach?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: He will tell this Commission that after he had handed over Ms Khubeka to yourselves and the other members in the kombi, he had then proceeded to Winkelspruit shooting range?

CHAIRPERSON: In the company of Radebe and Dube?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.  The three of them arrived at Winkelspruit in the Toyota Corolla?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is possible Chairperson, I cannot recall when they arrived there.   I cannot recall.

MR SAMUEL: He will tell this Commission that when he saw Ms Khubeka at the shooting range, she was blindfolded and tied both hands and feet?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can recall that she was blindfolded, but not that she was bound or cuffed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you cannot recall whether she was bound or cuffed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: She was not bound.

MR SAMUEL: He will tell this Commission that during the interrogation, he heard Ms Khubeka screaming in pain, I suppose?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What is the question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he wants you to comment on the evidence, he is putting what evidence Mr Mbane will give and he is saying that Mr Mbane when he testifies, will say that he heard Ms Khubeka screaming whilst she was being interrogated or questioned.  He is just asking for your comment on that, whether you agree or disagree or cannot remember or whatever?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Ms Khubeka did scream at a point, or at certain points.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mbane will say that he was at all times in the verandah leading to the room where Ms Khubeka was held?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that I saw him there.

MR SAMUEL: He will tell the Commission that he had a clear view of the door leading to where Mr Khubeka was being held?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is possible, but I cannot recall whether he was there or not.

MR SAMUEL: He will tell this Commission that he was present and he noticed when Ms Khubeka's body, dead body, was removed from that room?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot comment on that either, because I wasn't present when the body was removed.

MR SAMUEL: He will tell this Commission that Mr Myeza, Mr Wasserman and Mr Coetzer were the persons that removed the body.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is not much point putting anything to the witness where he says that he wasn't present, he cannot comment on it, you know.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further submissions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I think this will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment.     We will adjourn until two o'clock.  I would also just like to find out from the legal representatives what travel arrangements there are, to find out what our hours of sitting would be tomorrow?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, can we approach you in chambers?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions?
C.A. VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr van der Westhuizen, there were a number of other people who were present on the day and apart from their statements, there is very little that has emerged so far as to what their actual roles were, so what I want you to try and assist me with is to recall as far as you can remember, exactly what roles these people played.  I first want to start off with Jakob Albertus Coetzer, his statement is in the second Bundle from page 101, but  I will be referring you to certain aspects thereof, but prior to that, can you tell us to the best of your recollection, what he did on the day in question, starting from the arrest?  He indicated that he was present at the arrest?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think I can recall that Mr Coetzer was there, I am not certain, I cannot answer positively that he was there at the arrest Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Yes.   He also indicates in his statement, he gives certain information about the purpose for the arrest, and it seems, the inference from his statement is that there must have been discussions prior to the actual arrest concerning who was going to be arrested and how the arrest was actually going to take place.   You must have at least to some extent have been involved in those discussions because you were present at the arrest, can you tell me what your recollection was?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: According to my recollection Chairperson, at our briefing before the arrest had taken place, Mbane would bring the Commander of the group of whom Ms Khubeka knew about, he would bring him to the rendezvous point where he would be arrested.

MR WILLS: Yes, and I mean who was at this briefing, just describe the briefing to us, we haven't heard much about it?

CHAIRPERSON: And where it took place?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think it took place at C.R. Swart, the briefing.

MR WILLS: What time in the day?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It was in the afternoon, just before the arrest had taken place.

MR WILLS: Yes, carry on, what was said, who was there first of all and what was said?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The members who were there as I recall was Mr Botha, du Preez, Warrant Officer Basson.

MR WILLS: Or Coetzer?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that he was there specifically Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Taylor?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall whether he was there.

MR WILLS: Yes, and what was said?  I would understand that because of the rank structure, Botha would be giving the directions, he would be the one who was telling you exactly how this operation was going to take place, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be unless Col Taylor was there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think Botha informed us that members of C1 who had infiltrated Khubeka's people, would bring the Commander of the group to a rendezvous point and that he, and if any other persons would have been present, would be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you at that briefing, discussion, make any plans like in case there is a shootout or what weapons to take, who is going to take what positions, who will approach the car, who will stay back, that sort of thing, were there plans made at all, because you were going into from what you say, a potentially dangerous situation, you were going to arrest a Commander of a group who may be armed with an automatic gun?