Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

CHAIRPERSON: It's 18 October 1999.  We'll proceed with the applications for amnesty of Mr Gold and others.  The Panel consists of myself, Chris de Jager, Adv Ntsiki Sandi and Mr Lax.
	I would like the representatives to place themselves on record.  Mr Wills, could we start with you.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members.  My names is John Wills, attorney of Pietermaritzburg, I'm acting for Donald Spencer Gold in this matter.

MR BOOYENS: Kobus Booyens, instructed by Strydom Britz, on behalf of the applicant Mr van Zyl, Mr Chairman.

MEV VAN DER WALT: "Louisa van der Walt, mnr die Voorsitter.  Ek tree op vir die tweede applikant, soos gemerk op die stukke, Schalk Jan Visser.

UNKNOWN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek verskyn namens Schoon, sowel as Carr.  Mnr Carr was Vrydag opgeneem in die hospitaal in Pietermaritzburg, en het 'n operasie ondergaan en sal gevolglik nie hierdie verrigtinge kan bywoon nie.  Ek het egter geen beswaar dat die verrigtinge voortgaan nie.  Dit is ook so met mnr Carr bespreek en hy het daartoe toegestem, net soos ook met u in kamers bespreek, mnr die Voorsitter.
	Mnr die Voorsitter, dan wil ek ook net meld dat ek ook geen beswaar het dat mnr Lax deel vorm van die Komitee nie, in die lig van die feit dat hy deel gevorm het van 'n ondersoek ingevolge Artikel 29, waar mnr Schoon getuig het.  Daar is geen beswaar daarteen nie.  Dankie, mnr die Voorsitter".

UNKNOWN: I'm Ms Samuel and I represent the family of the deceased.  The deceased's family is not present, so I'd like it to be placed on record that to a large extent I'm going to be hampered with regard to cross-examination as I do not have firm instructions from her in that respect.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will for sure allow you ample time to consult if she turns up, if you haven't consulted yet and we'll allow you to cross-examine.  You need not start, or you could start if you want to, but you could reserve cross-examination if you want to.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Evidence Leader.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as Mr Carr's application is concerned, that will be postponed sine die.  We'll proceed with the other applications and we'll complete it as far as possible.  If at a later stage Mr Carr would give evidence and if you would require it, a copy of his evidence would be made available to any of the representatives, so that they could amplify their arguments in this case.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, the applicants have agreed among themselves that Mr van Zyl will testify first.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just one point before we commence with the actual applications.  My instructions are to withdraw those applications in respect of, and I refer the Chairman and the Committee to page 8 of the bundle.  We are withdrawing what appears at 4.3 and 4.4, that is the attempted kidnapping of the ANC operative in Swaziland and the crossing from Swaziland into South Africa, without going through a border post.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR WILLS: ... it's page 8 of the bundle, 4.3 and 4.4.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chair, I call Mr van Zyl.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Would you like to testify in English or in Afrikaans?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I understood first that there was no interpreter.  I would like to speak Afrikaans please.  If questions are put to me in English, I will answer in English.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any problems regarding the interpreter?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, there are no problems now about the interpretation.  There was a problem then because the Afrikaans interpreter did not arrive then.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether others - if you've got the same problem, there's a lot of noise on our earphones.
PROBLEMS WITH EARPHONES

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, we go ahead.
	Mr van Zyl, your amnesty application is from page 65 of the bundle, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that is true.

MR BOOYENS: You corroborate the content of pages 65 to 67.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You are applying for amnesty for the murder on a man whom you only know as MK Scorpio, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Maybe "know" is the wrong word, you refer to him as MK Scorpio.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's right.

MR BOOYENS: You do not know what his true identity is and you never knew and it is correct to say that according to the photo that is here, you can't say whether that is him or not.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That is true, I can't identify him according to the photos.

MR BOOYENS: The incident for which you apply here is the murder of this person, and according to your memory it was in the second half of 1980, and took place at Josini Dam, or Bolapoort Dam as it was known at that time, in the North of Natal.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: On page 68 of the application you set out that in 1980 you were a Branch Commander of the Security Forces in Ladysmith, Natal.  Is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, it is.

MR BOOYENS: The applicant, Col Schalk Visser of the time, did you know each other?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chair, we had dealings with each other because of our work at various occasions.  We were both involved in intelligence collection operations in neighbouring States, especially Swaziland, and because much of the information that I gathered, applied to the Witwatersrand and vice versa, we had a lot of dealings with each other from time to time.

MR BOOYENS: You had also known each other before in your careers in the Security Branch, although he was a more senior than you.  So you had known each other for a long time, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: How would you describe the relationship between you and Col Visser?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Col Visser was a very respected officer in the Security Branch, and I specifically have felt the same about him, I respected him as a person of integrity, because I believed that, and I'd heard that he was a person who led from the front instead of sitting behind a desk sending people out just to work.

MR BOOYENS: Were you satisfied that Col Visser was the type of man who - you said that had integrity, that if he sent a request your way, you could rely on it, that is was reliable information that he was reacting on?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Absolutely.

MR BOOYENS: During the second half of 1980, Col Visser phoned you at Ladysmith one day and asked you to come Johannesburg, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, it's correct.

MR BOOYENS: During the telephone call did he give you any detail as to what he wanted to talk to you about in Johannesburg?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chair, he just indicated that it was very urgent and that it was a delicate matter that he wanted to discuss with me urgently, personally.

MR BOOYENS: So that same day you went to Johannesburg, is that right?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: About how long after the call?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I remember that I left within the hour.

MR BOOYENS: So you would have for instance, you would more-or-less have been in Johannesburg about three hours later.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: In Johannesburg, upon arrival where did you go?  Did you go to his office or to his house?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: We met at his house, Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: Were only you and Col Visser there?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Please tell the Committee, Mr van Zyl, in essence what was discussed between yourself and Col Visser.