Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MR SITHOLE: Thanks.
	Do you remember Johanna Msibi testifying that she saw you wearing a white overall and a red band over your head on that day?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I do remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: For our assistance, Mr Sithole, can you refer is that part of the evidence contained in the judgment and if that is so, on which page?

MR SITHOLE: As the Chair pleases.  I will have to go back and look at the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought you probably had it.

MR SITHOLE: It's not the one that I've marked here

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, thanks.

MR SITHOLE: And she testified also that she saw you throwing an object towards the bus, are you still continuing to deny that?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, I deny this.  It may happen that she saw me, but not to see me throwing an object in the bus because where I was standing it was an open space, I wasn't hiding from anything.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just clarify this.
	Were you wearing a white overall and a red band, can you just clarify that for us?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I never wore an overall.  The only place where you can see me wearing an overall is at work, not outside work, not at the hostel or at the township.

MR LAX: And the headband?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, I wasn't wearing anything like that.  I was wearing my jacket if I'm not mistaken, nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, I've now found the reference I think, with regard to what you put to him as having been said by Johanna.  That is on page 30, I think that's the last paragraph on page 30.  Wherein she testified that she saw the applicant throwing something at the bus.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.
	Now are you saying the witnesses who testified in the criminal case are now, in fact they were actually lying to the Court?  The evidence that you said before this Committee is the truth?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

MR SITHOLE: I'm coming back and asking the same question again.  Why would the Committee today believe your testimony in this regard the testimony of the witnesses?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: As I've already mentioned that everything that I'm saying here today is the truth and nothing else but the truth because I've realised that the lie that I've said in Court made me go to prison.  That is why today I decided to tell the truth, and I would like for the Committee to really believe me because I'm telling the truth.

MR SITHOLE: Can we go back to the question of motive.  You'll agree with me that on that day when you left work you were angry, that's point number one.  Is that correct?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.

MR SITHOLE: Secondly, you were angry with your fellow workers because another member of your organisation was killed, is that correct?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

MR SITHOLE: And thirdly, you - I'm putting this to you, that you were angry with them because you suspected that they or their organisation killed the deceased, Mgababa?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct, they were the ones who killed him, and this wasn't the first time they actually killed someone from our organisation but this was the last straw to me.

MR SITHOLE: And out of anger you left your workplace and went to the hostel to finalise the plan of the attack?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: When I arrived at the hostel where I was staying, it wasn't my aim that I wanted to finalise the decision which we'd taken care of the previous day, but ...(intervention)

MR LAX: ...(inaudible).

MR SITHOLE: I'm putting it to you that - sorry? ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Please finish your answer.  You said it wasn't your aim to finalise the decision, did you want to say anything more, it sounded like you were going to carry on, maybe you weren't.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: When I arrived at the hostel I stayed there inside the house.  I got out when the meeting was called and this was the time that whatever we've decided was going to proceed.
	The reason I left work wasn't because I wanted to go ahead because the decision had already been taken, even though I didn't know as to what time it was going to occur but I knew that Monday was the day when the bus was going to be attacked.
	The reason I left work was because they've pointed at me and I decided to leave early because I was scared that they were going to attack me after work because at that time they've already pointed at me that I was going to be the next victim.

MR SITHOLE: Mr Hadebe, do you want this Committee to believe that you did not know what time the bus was going to be attacked?  I put it to you further that you are ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Woe, woe, one question at a time.  If you're saying - let him reply to the first thing.
	Do you want us to believe that you didn't know what time the bus would be attacked?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I didn't know the time because I didn't know what time the bus was going to pass there, but I knew the day, not the time.  I didn't know whether the bus was going to pass there at an earlier time or later time.

MR LAX: Carry on, Mr Sithole.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks.
	Mr Hadebe, surely you are the only person who worked at Escort, you are the only person who knew what time the Fawu members were knocking off, you are the only person who would have given the committee a proper indication as to what time the bus will be passing or what time they are going to be knocking off.  Would you want us to believe that you didn't know what time the bus was going to pass?

MR LAX: Sorry, he said he didn't know what time ...(indistinct), rather put it to him if that's what you are wanting to do, that he did know because he had the information etc., as you've tried to put it.

MR SITHOLE: Mr Hadebe, you had the information as to what the victims are going to pass, to knock off, number one, and surely you should know exactly at what time they will pass the hostel.  Now do you want us to believe that you didn't have that information at all?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to put this this way.  When we knock off at work we don't take the bus or the taxi at the same time.
	I will put this for example:  say we're knocking off at 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock, you will find that some of us take buses and taxis earlier and some they take later.  Therefore, I didn't know what time the bus was going to pass the hostel, but the people who were the operatives who were already there waiting for the bus to pass and they knew the exact place where they were going to attack the bus.
	Yes, we knocked off the same time but we usually don't take transportation back home at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: I find that very strange, Mr Hadebe, and in a way you are confusing your own testimony before us.  I don't know whether you understand the questions which are being put to you or even begin to think about your responses thereto.
	Your evidence has always been;  in the Executive Committee meeting wherein a decision was taken to target the bus because it would be carrying a large number of ANC people, you gave important information to that meeting.  And one of the information you gave was the fact the IFP did not board any of the two buses that operated to transport members of the ANC from work to Ratanda Location.  
	Now I would find it very strange if you did not tell them what time you knocked off and the approximate time they should be expecting the bus to go past the place that you probably identified as being the best place for the operatives to be in order to launch the attack on the bus.  Do you understand my difficulty?