Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR RICHARD: (cont)
	We were dealing with the various occasions on which the late Sicelo Dhlomo was detained during the 86 87 period.  Where we had got to was you really didn't know him before, if I remember correctly and I unfortunately didn't make a note of it, it was the June, July period, mid-year that year.

CHAIRPERSON: May, June.

MR RICHARD: Is that correct?

MR DUBE: As I've already explained earlier on, he had his cell and a commander thereof, and I did not quite know him.

MR RICHARD: So when did you ever get to know him better?

MR DUBE: As I said earlier, I did not know the guy very well.  I'm not very sure as to the time.  This is why I gave the estimation as I was relating to May, July.

CHAIRPERSON: Well when was the cell formed?

MR DUBE: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: When was this cell formed?

MR DUBE: In 1987?

CHAIRPERSON: When in 1987?

MR DUBE: That's exactly what I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: 'Cause I understood you to say that he was recruited into this cell by Sipho.

MR DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So presumably the cell was in existence.

MR DUBE: This is why I also say I have no clear recollection of this.  It may have been that the cell was in existence already, but Sipho and Clive would help me in this one if they remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I regard it as important.  You have told us that when you formed a cell you would come and give it training daily.  When you established a cell you would train the members and this would be a daily procedure over a period.

MR DUBE: What I think I could note in as far as this is concerned, is the period of four months.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you train them for a period of four months?

MR DUBE: I'm not talking about training, but I'm attempting to answer your question relating to the cells.  I was simply saying it was four months later, after the establishment of the cell.

CHAIRPERSON: That he was recruited?

MR DUBE: Yes.  But the problem I have now is in relation to the time, the months to be exact.

MR RICHARD: By October 1987 it is correct that you knew the individual members of this particular cell and had a working relationship with them.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now we go back to the DPSC, the Detainees Parents Support Committee.  Does that help you?

MR DUBE: Yes, in reminding as to what those words stand for, yes it helps me.

MR RICHARD: Now what did they do?

MR DUBE: I don't quite understand your question.  In relation to what?

MR RICHARD: We know that the deceased Sicelo Dhlomo was active with this committee.  I want to know what you knew of this committee's activities.  The Detainees Parents Support Committee.

MR DUBE: I didn't know quite well, because the main thing that I used to do was what brought me back into the country, to fight.

MR RICHARD: So that means you, your answer is you don't know what this group of people did.

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now earlier this morning you said that your training and purpose in the country included the objective of political activities as well as training in weapons and missions and operations.  When you used the world political what do you mean?

MR DUBE: What I am explaining here is, South Africa as a country at the time was in a state of war.  ANC was coerced to go out on exile, and was forced to be active in armed struggle and it tried to facilitate some discussions or negotiations with the system at the time, so that what I'm trying to explain to this Committee this morning is one of the things that I was expected, as my duty, to ensure that everyone understands his role, or they understand their roles respectively, as to joining the ANC and underground structures of MK at the time.

MR RICHARD: Does that mean that you weren't interest in other support organisations that assisted and provided support for the ANC at the time, and for the members of your force?

MR DUBE: First of all I did attempt to explain why I came back here.  I came back here for simple reasons of fighting.  As I was in special ops my main task was to recruit cells, train them, and pull up their operations effectively.  Mainly I concentrated on those things, plus security of all the comrades, or all my comrades and myself included as far as I was or I am concerned.

MR RICHARD: That is why I'm interested to know, if your comrades were active in other organisations besides the cell, wouldn't it be important to you?

MR DUBE: What I did I will decide like for instance that he was also involved or he took part in the student organisations at the time, and I will withdraw them from such activities so we could concentrate on one effort, fighting that is.

MR RICHARD: So in other words if the deceased was active in supporting his fellow students who were in detention, it's not an activity you would have supported?

MR DUBE: I could have supported it.  I would have supported it as well, as I've said earlier on that they had their own commander and I also relied on the information that was supported to me by the cell commander because I used to liaise quite often with such a person.

MR RICHARD: But the point is that you didn't know what the Detainees Parents Support Committee was, and you didn't know anything at all about the deceased's activities about it.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: So, now, you say that the commander of the cell was the third applicant, Clive Makhubu.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: Clive Makhubu yes.

MR RICHARD: How often did you see him?

MR DUBE: We have our own way of communicating, using telephones sometimes.  We will meet if need be.  Now I am not in a position to explain and furnish exact information as to how often, maybe twice or three times a week, I can't do that, but as I've earlier explained that earlier on during the training procedures I would spend most of the time with them.

MR RICHARD: So that means if it was May, June when you first started training that cell, is that correct?  How long would that day to day contact have been?

CHAIRPERSON: He started training the cell ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR RICHARD: When did you start training that cell?

MR DUBE: I will reiterate the fact that I don't quite remember.  This is why I furnished you with a rough estimation pertaining to months.

MR RICHARD: Were you ever in day to day contact with the deceased while training him?

MR DUBE: At the time of training yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And for how long did that training go on?  Was it months, days, weeks?

MR DUBE: I would give them a crash course, that's what I used to do, five of them.  As I've said earlier on that you'll find there where be a situation where I spend most of the time in a week with them.  That was not the only thing I was doing by the way.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand what you've told me, told us, that is that this cell was formed some months before you met the deceased, and some months before he joined it, so you would have given training to the other members of the cell.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: What I've explained was because the cell was not formed at one time, this particular cell, the first person was Clive.  From there he recruited Sipho, so this took time.  It did not happen at once.  As to how long, I don't remember.

ADV SANDI: Yes but the essence of the question her Mr Dube is, by the time Sicelo joined the cell, which you said was already in existence by May, June, July, when you met him for the first time, Clive and Sipho, had they received training by then?

MR DUBE: I thought I'd answered the question.  Yes, they were already the cell.

ADV SANDI: Who was the last person to join the cell?  Did anyone join after Sicelo?

MR DUBE: The last one was Sicelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Precious had joined before him, had he?

MR DUBE: Precious joined before him.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he receive training before him?