Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	I'm going to put to you the difficulty that I have with this approach, which I've put to Mr Jagga before.  That Betty Boom is collected from wherever she was collected, in broad daylight, and then she's taken to Ladybrand.  There was a risk that somebody could have seen her being taken away, is it not so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And then after spending about a week with her in Ladybrand, she's taken back into Lesotho.  Was that act not an act that's defeating the purpose of having a secure informer within the ANC?  Just in case she was seen jumping into your car voluntarily and so on.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, we'd received no report from any other informer whatsoever that she had been, in the first place, missing, and in the second place, that she'd been abducted or seen in our presence.

MR MALINDI: So what you mean is that your informers didn't see you take her away from Lesotho?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's not what I mean, Chairperson.  What I'm trying to answer is that we had no information to say that anybody had seen her in our presence, or that it was believed that she was working with us during the time that she was with us.  It seemed perfectly safe to us to take her back to Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: And she would have a good explanation for her absence for a week, if she had to give such an explanation to members of her unit and members of the higher organs?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, she was the Commander of the Free State Machinery, she didn't have to answer to anybody in Lesotho.  If she - it must have occurred on many occasions that these operatives would disappear from time to time and it wouldn't be questioned, especially if she's in charge of the cell, her cell.  She was the person in charge, she could have given any answer if she asked - well she could have handled the situation.

MR MALINDI: And then you later learnt that she is being suspected within - let me start by saying, Chairperson, after she was recruited in Lesotho and agreed to cooperate with you, before the abduction, you did learn that she's being suspected of co-operating with you.  Is it not so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That was reported to me, that's correct Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: So in other words, it means she was being watched herself and she had to report to someone.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if it means that, Chairperson, I don't know if she was being watched by anybody, perhaps she was just seen by somebody speaking to her handlers.  I don't know the circumstances regarding what brought about the whole issue of her being, perhaps being seen in the company of some of our members.

MR MALINDI: She must have been seen with her handlers and word got to the ANC that she's been seen with some strange people and there were suspicious and that is why you had to stage this abduction.  Do you agree with me so far?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: She could have been seen.  As I've said, I don't know the exact circumstances which led up to this.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose?
	As far as you can recall, what was the nature of the compromise, of the extent to her being compromised?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, as far as I can remember, and honestly it is vague, I can't remember clearly, I think the gist of the thing is that there was a possibility that she could have been compromised because of being seen in the company of Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie, but that's the only thing I can ...

MR LAX: And do you have any recollection of by whom she was being suspected?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson, I haven't.

MR LAX: You don't remember that sort of detail?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I can't remember that detail, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see, the evidence we've heard is that when she was on the farm she in fact confirmed that there were suspicions about her.  You must have debriefed her on the farm.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I didn't debrief her at all, Chairperson, I wasn't involved in her debriefing or anything to that nature.

MR LAX: Who debriefed her?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Jantjie and Mr Jagga.

MR LAX: That's what they said, they said the two of them were the only ones that debriefed her.  Did you debrief any of the others?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I did not, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well what discussions did you have with them, individually or together?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well hardly any discussions with them as a group.  I'd find out, ask after their well-being, find out what they needed, I'd visit them occasionally on the farm.  I wasn't on the farm all the time, Chairperson, I had other duties to do.

MR LAX: So when Thulo says you and Jantjie and - you pronounce it Yaya, do you?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Jantjie?

MR LAX: No.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yaya, ...(indistinct) Yaya.

MR LAX: Yes.  When you and Jantjie and Jagga went into the room, just the three of you and he was left outside, you weren't part of a debriefing at that stage, what were you part of?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If I went into the room - I can't recall it like that, Mr Chairperson, it could have happened like that, but it wasn't that I was being part of the debriefing party.  If I'd gone into the room with them, it could have been so.  But I wasn't involved in any debriefing of either, any of them.

MR LAX: You see that was his evidence, that he was left out and you were part of that and he went on to describe it as questioning, interrogation, or other things like that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's what he said.  I heard him say that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So you say you weren't part of that, you were simply enquiring as to their well-being, etcetera?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, there was nothing, there was no reason for me to get involved in any debriefing at all.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Malindi, I've interposed long enough I think.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, I'm sorry if I'm making you repeat an answer that you have already given.  What was the purpose of then fetching Betty Boom from Lesotho and taking her to Ladybrand?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It was, in the first place, because of the threat that existed that she could be compromised and secondly as well, was to enable her handlers to fully debrief her on all the information that she had, which takes a long time, it's not a question of getting that sort of information in an hour or half an hour or so, it takes a long time to debrief somebody about all the information that they have got, which wasn't, you couldn't do it in Lesotho.  Especially a person of the profile of Betty Boom.

MR MALINDI: Well then the act of taking her into Ladybrand did not serve to limit or reduce the suspicions, it must have served to increase the suspicion that she was a doubtful cadre of the ANC?  I mean taking her away for about a week.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I suppose that's a matter of opinion, Mr Chairperson, I don't think so.

MR MALINDI: And then you heard the evidence of Jantjie and Jagga that how easy it was for them to recruit Betty Boom, she complained that she was not getting financial support from the ANC and that just opened the doors for them to recruit her as an informer.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I heard that evidence, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And you heard that she was tired of the struggle?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I heard that as well, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And she actually wanted out.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I heard that as well, Chairperson.