Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FATHER MKHATSWA: Yes I thought I had answered this question by pointing out that, one, I was not part of the church leadership that met with Reverend Mbangula, Dr Motlana and others, I was not part of that meeting, so therefore as an individual I cannot really therefore be expected to have had that information.  I only got that information much later when the situation you know got worse.
 Chairperson could I also just - Chairperson I just want to go back to one particular question that was put to me by, I don't know the gentleman over there, the one about the Crisis Committee saying it was informed by Mrs Mandela that during our meeting with her that she had told us that she was going to hold a press conference in order to resign from the ANC, just to make sure that I have not been misunderstood, I am not saying that the Crisis Committee statement is wrong, I am not questioning the statement, but what I am saying is that there was no such discussion during our meeting, in other words she never said she was going to resign from the ANC or anything of the sort.  I just wanted to put that straight.  That's the statement of the Crisis Committee, I have no reason to doubt it or to question it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We are grateful to you.  There are obviously concerns that we have that sometimes the answers are not as straight as we would have hoped they would be and that concerns us, but we take account of the fact that it is trying to describe events of a little while ago.  We are grateful for your contribution in as seeking to assist us into forming a complete a picture as possible and the background and all the things that we are required to discover.  Thank you very much.  You may stand down.
 Before I call Murphy Morobe and Ahzar Cachalia, let me just indicate, we do have this whole concern about our schedule and a part of the reason is, I do not want and we do not want as a Commission to give the impression that we are seeking to rush things.  It is a very important hearing we are conducting and is perhaps far better for us to err on the side of maybe taking a great deal more time than we would otherwise do.  I have tried a little bit to do this but it is quite clear that we are not able to accomplish our objective by tomorrow evening, and so we have, I have already indicated to you that we might have to work on Saturday.  It is not only Saturday that we are going to work on Monday and possibly Tuesday.  We have to finish in this one sitting, we cannot postpone, we do not as it happens have the physical time in our program.  We have to finish work by the 14th of December.  We are not allowed to take on work after that and I hope we can have finished today's intended programme by 7 o'clockish, it could be half past 7 but it depends. Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson can I just for the record request there may be an approach to the Commission outside official sittings about the appropriateness about the Saturday's hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should, because I had thought it might be better for us to have a break but I mean we have settling problems with other people.  But can we talk about that because I think it is a very good suggestion.  Will those two gentlemen Messrs Morobe and Cachalia come up?
 Order please, we mustn't eat up even more time.  If you are walking out it is possible to walk out without talking.  Gentlemen,

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson may I, I have just been handed notes around the witnesses who are here.  Can I just ask for a five minute adjournment to take instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't get the statements?

MR SEMENYA: We got the statements today and we keep reading them...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Alright a five minute break.
 Gentlemen thank you very much.  We don't have control of things as we wish to and we are very grateful that you have put yourselves at our disposal in this manner. And we thank you for the part that you have played in the struggle which has enabled us to have things such as this one. Will you please - yes I don't suppose you're going to use any other language but English.  Thank you will you stand then.

AZHAR CACHALIA: (affirmation)

MURPHY MOROBE: (sworn states)

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop.  Both Mr Cachalia and Mr Morobe have made submissions to us, and I understand that they want to talk to their submissions before they ask questions.  May we start?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR VALLY: Chairperson...(intervention)

COUNSEL: Chairperson may we have copies of the statements please?

MR VALLY: These have in fact been handed out but I will arrange for you to get ...(indistinct) if you have not got yours. I think you should check with your colleagues, they were dished out.  It will come to you shortly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mdu have you called Ahzar Cachalia - please just make sure that the lawyers have copies. Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, if I may, I do not want to anticipate what Mr Cachalia is going to say.  I would before he testifies wish to address the Commission to make a ruling in terms of Rule 1.1.2 about the competence and relevance of his evidence.  I don't know whether to mention my submissions now or immediately before he commences with his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: ..for us to make a judgement, I mean you're saying we make a judgement. What is your objection?

MR SEMENYA: Maybe Chairperson let me then make the representations which I propose to make.  I'd be calling on the Chairperson to make a ruling that the evidence of Mr Cachalia can 1 not be relevant and 2 that his evidence, if it is consistent with the document we have been furnished, constitutes totally completely hearsay evidence that nothing he purports, there is nothing he purports we're saying which emanates out of his direct knowledge of the events that the subpoena relates to other than the information which he as a member of the various structures would have understood from certain people.  In terms of the issues which have been identified in the subpoena, he carries no personal knowledge about those things, he expresses opinions based on information that he would have had from various people and on that ground Chairperson admitting that the Commission has a discretion to admit hearsay evidence.  I understand that ruling to be in the context of a witness who has something substantive of a personal knowledge, who in the deliverance of that testimony may relate to matters that are coincidental and that they may have had.  But to bring a witness whose main aim evidence in the main is hearsay, particularly if the answer that is going to be offered is that he would have been part of the structure that made the broad call, the national call.
 Chairperson we have Matthew Morobe who according to the information made to the statement, so the evidence of Mr Cachalia with respect, if it would not be redundant, will definitely be irrelevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif will you..?