Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-19

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chairman, I had a talk with my learned friend here to that effect, and they have pledged that they will assist me in finding a Counsel today, but the matter can stand down until tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: An instant Counsel?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: An instant Counsel Mr Chairman, and we will put papers in his hands, and we will help him wherever we can and I will ensure that Gwamanda is kept here, if he gets a Counsel to come and consult with him here today.
	Fortunately all my learned friends here and present, are available for tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: That, if that could be done, we certainly would appreciate it because setting up a hearing like this is not an easy task.  People have come from afar, at a cost and obviously we've also got an interest to get through our long list of hearings.  We would very much as a panel, appreciate it if this matter could be proceeded with as soon as possible and concluded, especially if it could be done now so we wouldn't have to reconvene the whole thing.
	It would seem from my look at the outstanding, the schedules for the rest of the hear, that a resumed hearing wouldn't be possible this year, because we are sort of full up until Christmas, even after.
	We would appreciate it Mr Mpshe if everything possible could be done to secure the services of a legal representative, in time, so he or she can start consulting this afternoon.  I should imagine an afternoon consultation, would probably be sufficient to prepare that person to proceed tomorrow, rather than come in tomorrow and then we only start late tomorrow.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be done Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If possible, if you can keep in touch with us and the legal representatives, if that comes about, if we could have a start at about nine o'clock tomorrow, or quarter past nine.  Would that be possible?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Nine o'clock Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine o'clock, okay.  Thank you.  Mr Gwamanda, you've got your hand up?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I am trying to explain that my proper Attorney is Mr Dihal.  The proposed Attorney would just be there to assist here and there, but my Attorney is Mr Dihal.
	I don't think we would have any delays when I meet the other lawyer.  If I could have my way, I will say we should proceed now, but because I know that there may be other matters that will require a legal representative, I am not afraid, nor intimidated by the questions that may be asked of me by the legal representatives present here.
	I do not have a problem with that.  If the lawyer was here, we would proceed even now.  I do not need the proceedings to be postponed.  I would like to proceed as quickly as possible, because people have been traumatised and they have suffered and they have come here to listen and hear what happened to their loved ones.
	I would not like the proceedings to be postponed.  Even if there is a problem in acquiring a lawyer, I would like to still proceed on my own.  I know that what I will say, will be the truth.
	Mr Dihal cannot represent me because he is an ANC member, and there was a problem with regards to the information relating to the Third Force in Barberton.  What I am going to say here, is the truth.  I will not like the Committee to postpone the proceedings.  I will like to explain about everything that happened at Ndwedwe and also what was supposed to happen to Mr Phosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, Mr Dihal has told us that he is withdrawing, so any new legal representatives won't only be working, won't be working with Mr Dihal, he will come in clean and represent you on his own.
	Mr Dihal, by withdrawing, will no longer be involved in this matter.  You of course have the right to elect to proceed without a representative, that is your right, but I am telling you that you also have a right to a legal representative.  Mr Mpshe says that the chances are reasonable that one can be arranged today and that we will be able to commence hopefully at nine o'clock tomorrow, depending on the availability of the legal representative.
	Your option is to either have the matter postponed until tomorrow at nine o'clock when you will have a legal representative, who we don't know, we don't know who that person will be, but it will be a qualified, legally qualified person, qualified in law and that might be in your interest to have a legal representative.
	The postponement will be until tomorrow or if, I suppose it will be tomorrow, it will be difficult to round up everybody if things happen quicker today.

MR GWAMANDA: I would appreciate that.  I would request that maybe I am, I get an African Attorney that I can communicate with effectively.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not in my hands to make any instruction as to the identity of the legal representative, but we note what you say, but I can't make any directive in that regard.

MR GWAMANDA: I thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You have all heard what has happened, it is unfortunate, but we are just not in a position to proceed at this time.
	Hopefully we will be able to proceed at nine o'clock tomorrow with this matter.  Mr Mukadam, you have mentioned that you've got a problem on Wednesday onwards?

MR MUKADAM: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And maybe we can work it that seeing that Mr Mukadam is only involved in one aspect, you've got no real interest in, if I say interest, I mean vested interest ...

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairperson, part of my brief is not, according to my instructions, part of my brief is not only the attempt on Mr Phosa's life, but also other activities that the applicant may have been involved in with regard to the ANC as well.

CHAIRPERSON: That would seem to involve the other matters from my reading certainly, of the affidavit.
	If we start tomorrow, we may - one doesn't know, but it may well go longer than one day.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, there is that possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it is a probability?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, I concede, it would be a probability.

CHAIRPERSON: How tight is your matter on Wednesday, I mean how definite is that?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairperson, the matter is set down for trial in the NPD for three days, starting on Wednesday.  Indications have been with regard to the other side, that there may be a possibility of a settlement and I will only know that at a Rule 37 conference that is being held this afternoon at five o'clock.
	After that conference I would be in a position to give you more clear details.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I was going to say whilst on the question of Wednesday, my other two learned friends are also not available on Wednesday, but we had a chat about it, that if it becomes a part-heard tomorrow, we agreed that we will find another suitable date when other hearings would be here, as a part-heard.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean in the schedule that remains this year?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I have discussed it with my two learned friends.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  It is just a question of getting the same panel if it is a part-heard, but that is not impossible I suppose.
	Yes, well thank you very much.  Unfortunately then, we have to postpone this matter until tomorrow until nine o'clock, when hopefully it will proceed.
	There is also another matter on the roll for tomorrow, but we will give this matter preference, is that the understanding?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is the understanding Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you, we will then adjourn.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS