Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR MBANDAZAYO: I know, I know that but I'm asking that are you not a supporter of any political organisation?

MR P DE CASTRO: Not at all.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you have never been any supporter of any political organisation?

MR P DE CASTRO: Never in my life.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you just decide when it's about time for you to vote, which party to vote for?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right I make a decision what is best for the country, whose party has got the credentials to be voted for.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know Inspector Mkhize?

MR P DE CASTRO: Mkhize?

MR MBANDAZAYO: A policeman, 319 Smith Street Durban.

MR P DE CASTRO: What is the full name of that police?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's just initial.  Okay let me put it this way.  Did you make any statement on the 14th of May 1998 at Welkom?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And in that statement, in paragraph 2 of your statement, that
"I was not a member of any political organisation and I had nothing to do with politics until now.  I only support the National Party.  Among my family no one was a member of any political party because we're business people"?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes I did say that.  I say that I voted for the National Party, but that's only to show that I've got nothing to do with AWB whatsoever.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No I'm not talking about the AWB, I was talking I asked you many times whether you supported any political organisation, you said no not in your life.

MR P DE CASTRO: No well I wasn't a supporter of the National Party, I never gave them any funds, I just vote for them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I didn't ask you about funds or what ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He did tell us consistently that he voted for political parties, didn't he?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) what party and if you're going to argue that that indicate's being a supporter, you can do so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I asked him whether he did support any political party.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and whether he was supporter and as I understood his evidence, he indicated that he was a voter, when voting time to come he made up his mind which party to vote for, but that he had no other interest in politics, which is what he's saying now isn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman in his statement he's saying he only supports the National Party.

CHAIRPERSON: After he has just said I was - read the whole statement again please.  From the beginning of the paragraph?
MR MBANDAZAYO
"At the time of the robbery I was not a member of any political organisation and I had nothing to do with politics until now.  I only support the National Party".

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible), doesn't that indicate this.  Carry on if you want to, but again I fail to see the point.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman it's clear, "... until now I had nothing to do with politics until now.  I only support National Party".  What does that Mr Chairman mean?

CHAIRPERSON: I vote for them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Because I support them.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I vote for them I can be taken to support them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But it's there Mr Chairman that you support them, that's the reason he's voting for them.

CHAIRPERSON: He supports them, that doesn't mean he is a supporter.  Doesn't a supporter to you mean more than someone who just votes?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Definitely Mr Chairman, that's what I'm getting at because in fact I only support National Party.

MR MALAN: I think this is really an issue for argument, what is the level of support.  I think he's made it clear that he voted for the National Party, he says if that is support then that's support, but he said he's never given them any funds, he's never been a member.  Do you want to take it further than that, do you want to put that in dispute.  If so then I think you should continue.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, but Mr Chairman it's clear in the statement in as much as he's saying that he was only voting, he votes when it come to vote he say he vote for any party during time of election, but in his statement it is clear Mr Chairman that he supports National Party.

MR MALAN: Let's accept it and leave it at that for argument.  I think that's something really for argument and I'm happy to take it that way if you want to proceed and think you can take it further then continue with the cross examination.  If that's the only point you need to make, it is before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Every time you made that statement, were you aware of this hearing?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes I was aware.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you made that statement in anticipation of the hearing?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well the lady came to me and she say that she's from the Truth Commission and that she needs to take a statement from me for this amnesty hearing and I obliged to do that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were told that the people who attacked your supermarket are applying for amnesty?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well she explained that to me but not in a straightforward - she say well there's a possible application you know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now he told you that there's a possibility or a possible application of amnesty?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So he never told you that they applied for amnesty?

MR P DE CASTRO: No she say well that they are applying and there is a possibility of a hearing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So you were aware that they applied for amnesty?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So it was explained to you.  It's not a question that it was never explained to you?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well I wasn't a 100% ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of this when the statement says that he objects to the applicants being granted amnesty.  It is abundantly clear he knew they were applying, isn't it from the very statement?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman but I want it to come from him, but he's not saying it.  He's saying that it was never explained to him so he's running away from what is in his statement.

MR MALAN: Mr Mbandazayo ... (intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the impression I have.

MR MALAN: With all due respect, your first question was:  "Were you aware of this hearing when you made that statement"?, and his answer was:  "Yes".  I mean he gave it straight to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After that what did I say Mr Chairman?

MR MALAN: No indeed you continued then to lead him and ask him about how the statement came to him and he talked about the lady coming to him and then you asked further questions, but his first upfront statement was when I made the statement I was aware of a hearing and then he went on to say the possibility of a hearing and so on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes I asked him was it explained to him that the people who attacked his supermarket applied for amnesty, that's where he started not answering.

MR MALAN: I seriously don't want to get into a debate with you.  I think we should leave you and continue and then see where it leads to and if needs be we can intervene again.  Will you please continue.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now if you were aware that there's this hearing coming so you had ample time to give him your reasons for objecting to them being granted amnesty?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well I gave my statement, you've got my statement in front of you.  What does the statement say?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes it says that you object to them being granted amnesty, but subsequent to that in this hearing you made another statement.

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now how many people were injured in the supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well there was three heavily injured and there was one slightly injured.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did that come up at the trial?

MR P DE CASTRO: No well at the trial here, the evidence that was given here it seems to me that most of your applicants they didn't even know how many people was injured.