Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

MR VISSER: Oh certainly yes Mr Chairman.  It just seems unlikely, that's why I'm asking you at the moment.  But certainly he can be called back if it's necessary.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a reasonable request.

MR HUGO: (continues) Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ramatala, you said in your evidence in chief that you were instructed by McCarter and then you said that Mr Letsatse briefed us, can you remember that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: What exactly did Mr Letsatse tell you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: By briefing us he was telling us that gentlemen, you must do what I said you must do.  Nothing that - you must get the instruction that I'm going to give him.

MR HUGO: No but can you just give us the details when he was briefing you, what exactly did he tell you to do?

ERNEST RAMATALA: My understanding, why I said briefing, that we are going to listen, we are going to get the instruction from him, he is going to lead us, he is going to tell us what to do.  We are going to report back to him.

MR HUGO: Does that mean that Mr Letsatse didn't give you particular instructions as to how you should go about for instance about contacting Mr Bhila etc?  He just said to you look, he was going to be the leader and you should report to him, is that what you meant?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, how can I assume that I must go to Mr Bhila without the immediate command of Letsatse?

MR HUGO: Well, didn't Mr McCarter tell you about Mr Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mr McCarter told us about Mr Bhila but on the way we were with Mr Letsatse, somebody who is the commander right at that time.

MR HUGO: Well Mr Ramatala, let me just put it to you that we're acting also for Mr Letsatse.  He says that he was never present during this initial briefing session and he'd never been told about Mr Bhila and let me finish - that he assumes that all the instructions came from Mr McCarter and he wasn't told about that.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mr Letsatse by that time he was a senior to Mr McCarter, how can Mr Letsatse not know of this operation while he was a senior to McCarter?

MR HUGO: You would agree though that Mr Letsatse came from Pretoria and to the best of your knowledge there was no ways that he could have had any knowledge pertaining to Mr Bhila prior to have coming down to Durban?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That one I agree with you.

MR HUGO: Then you said in your evidence in chief that you then went to Lamontville and you were shown the house of Mr Bhila and you said the people who went with you were - well the one person was Mr Letsatse and you mentioned Nobela and a Mr Radebe.  Now let me put it to you that we're also acting for Mr Radebe and both Mr Radebe and Letsatse say that they never went to the house or to Lamontville, what do you say to that?  Aren't you just making a mistake here?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, not to the house but at Lamontville, they were there.

MR HUGO: This was the initial visit to the house when you, on your version, when Mr Mhieza pointed the house out?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR HUGO: I just want to get back to Mr Shakes Malaleka, was Mr Malaleka a former member of the ANC?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: And I think maybe you must just get us some clarity on that, to the best of your knowledge did Mr Malaleka, this is Mr Shakes Malaleka, did he know Mr Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR HUGO: So what was Mr Shakes Malaleka's participation during the initial conversation with Mr Bhila when Mr Bhila was convinced to attend a meeting two days later at the Kentucky Fried Chicken building in Lamontville, can you remember?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, I don't remember.

MR HUGO: Who would you say was instrumental during this conversation in convincing Mr Bhila to go to the Kentucky rendezvous point?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Who?

MR HUGO: Ja, whom of the three of you that went in?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I would say between myself and Nobela.

MR HUGO: Mr Nobela was he a former member of the ANC or is he just a normal policeman?

ERNEST RAMATALA: A normal policeman.

MR HUGO: And what would you say made Mr Bhila decide to go to Kentucky, what convinced him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I don't really recall but what I recall is that Mr Biela suggested another day.

CHAIRPERSON: He suggested what?  Another day?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Another day.

MR HUGO: Would you say that you yourself were convincing enough to persuade Mr Bhila that you had intimate knowledge of the ANC structures or at least the UDF structures?

ERNEST RAMATALA: At Mr Bhila's place there was no time to discuss of the structures, the only thing was to introduce ourself as comrade to him, then we want a communal place to speak.

MR HUGO: And are you saying that he didn't ask any further questions, he didn't verify as to whether you were bona fide members of the UDF and/or the ANC?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Nothing.

MR HUGO: Mr Ramatala, you also said in your evidence in chief that after that particular meeting, you then went back and you reported to Mr Letsatse, Mr Mhieza and Mr Radebe, do you recall that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR HUGO: Let me just put it to you that Mr Letsatse and Mr Radebe are both saying that they weren't there and they deny that you reported to them.  What do you say to that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: To whom did I report now?

MR HUGO: Well, they're just saying that you didn't report to them.

ERNEST RAMATALA: And let me put it clear again to you, we were using one Combi that was being driven by Mr Letsatse so Mr Gadebe and Mhieza was in the Combi.  Now how can we travel from Lamontville to C.R. Swart without going to them?

MR HUGO: Both Mr Letsatse and Mr Radebe will say that they weren't in the Combi, they never went to Mr Bhila's house, it must have been somebody else.

ERNEST RAMATALA: I said they were there.

MR HUGO: Then you also said that Mr Letsatse, after this meeting with Mr Bhila, with Mr Mhieza, went to the office and I take it you're referring to the office at C.R. Swart, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR HUGO: Whom did they go and see?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well I don't know.

MR HUGO: Now let me just put it to you for completeness sake that Mr Letsatse once more says that he never went to an office after this particular incident to go and report whatever was to be reported?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Or after this thing.  He was there.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Ramatala, something that I found astounding was the conversation on your version that took place in the combi after the first incident, after the first meeting with Mr Bhila, on your way back to C.R. Swart, can you just recall what took place, what was decided?

ERNEST RAMATALA: From Mr Bhila's place to?

MR HUGO: To C.R. Swart yes, that's after you had agreed to meet Mr Bhila at the Kentucky here in two days time, at the Kentucky building?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Then it was to report back what did we find, the discussion with Mr Bhila, the arrangement, what did he say because they were not sure that Mr Bhila will say that we will meet at Kentucky so that is the thing that came with Mr Bhila during our discussion so we were supposed to tell Mr Letsatse and others about what had happened.

MR HUGO: Yes, no but you then testified that it was decided that a car should be obtained?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well according to the nature of the operation now there was supposed to be the car.

MR HUGO: Yes but whose idea was this that a car should be hired, why couldn't you use the same Combi?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The Combi was well known that the police are using Combis.

MR HUGO: Well, why didn't you go to Mr Bhila's place in the first instance with a Combi then?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I think you didn't understand, we didn't go straight to Mr Bhila's place.

MR HUGO: Sorry, you're correct there.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: So you decided that a combi shouldn't be used and a car should be hired.  Whose idea was this?