Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you all the time receive instructions from Vermeulen without clearing them with your Vlakplaas commander?

ANSWER: When Dirk Coetzee left, I took instructions from Vermeulen because he was my immediate superior.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...happened in October 1981, Mr Dirk Coetzee was no longer at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: He was still there but when this incident took place where we were given these instructions to go and abduct him, I did not see him, I did not communicate with him about this incident.   Vermeulen was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there anyone who told you that from the time he disappeared from the scene you would now be receiving instructions from either Vermeulen or from Mr Jan Coetzee?

ANSWER: Regarding this incident?

SISI KHAMPEPE: With regard to any duties that you had to execute.

ANSWER: Often Vermeulen, even when Dirk Coetzee was working there, I would often be placed in a group under his command because we would often be sent out in groups.   You would be deployed in groups and you would receive instructions from the commander of your group, so even with regard to this incident he was the one that instructed me and I was to follow his orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe is there any information about the man, Mohabi Dibali?
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MR MPSHE	89	ADDRESS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman the information is that he was found dead in prison the day before being taken to court.   He is dead.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of this assault?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He died at John Vorster Square prison in 1982, it is stated the day before he could be taken to court and this has been confirmed by the sister.

UNKNOWN: Would that be a year later because the abduction incident occurred in October 1981 isn't it so?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman may I just be afforded a five minute indulgence without an adjournment just to consult with the sister who is sitting right behind me here, without adjourning.   (Discussion between Mr Mpshe and Mrs Dibali).

CHAIRPERSON: There is some mention that Mohabi Dibali died detention on 8 August 1982.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman I cannot remember the date from the Harms Commission, I am now looking here in the arguments presented on behalf of the Security Branch before the Harms Commission and it was their evidence that Dibali was transferred to Soweto police cells apparently on 21 October 1981, that was now after this incident.   The police at that stage denied the whole abduction at the Harms Commission, but according to the evidence presented by the police, after the date that he was apparently abducted according to his family in Soweto when they laid a charge of abduction on 12 October, on 21 October he was transferred to the police cells in Soweto.   I do not find any reference to a date but I remember from the Harms Commission that he did die in detention later.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he kept in detention the whole time, do you know?
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MR MPSHE	90	ADDRESS

MR DE WET-MARAIS: I cannot remember Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is something the record should show, the Soweto police cell records should show, if he came there how long he remained there and where he went.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence.  Mr Chairman the information given to me by Mrs Dibali, that is the sister to Mohabi, is that Mohabi was detained on 6 August 1981 and then he was released on 29 January 1982.   He was re-arrested on 5 August 1982 and died on 8 August 1982 in detention.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you give me those first dates again?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes I will repeat.   He was detained 6 August 1981 and then released 29 January 1982.

UNKNOWN: He was abducted...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In 81.

UNKNOWN: October 81, according to what you now tell us he was in jail then, he was detained, that was during the period of detention.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I cannot say whether this is correct or not but I get this from the sister who has handwritten information which she has brought with.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words from the time that he was abducted, as far as the family was concerned, the next they knew that he was released, the following January.

JUDGE WILSON: No he was detained two months before he was abducted.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: According to the application he was abducted in October 81.

JUDGE WILSON: So he was detained two months before he was abducted.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He was detained two months before the abduction.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
MR MPSHE	91	ADDRESS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he was detained two months before his abduction.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before his abduction, we can say he was detained on 6 August 1981, this is now just my reasoning, and then abducted in October 1981 and then released on 29 January 82 and then re-arrested on 5 August 82 and then died on 8 August 82, that is about three days after the second detention.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman seeing that the Chair has indicated that in fact I have quite a number of questions to put to the applicant, I will carry them over until the following morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Nofomela are you quite sure about the date on which this person was abducted?   You have just heard the information that according to the family he was detained on 6 August and you say that you (indistinct), could it be that you are wrong with your month?

ANSWER: It is possible sir because this is something that I am relying on my memory for.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...verify the date or at least the month?

ANSWER: I cannot promise but I will think about it, I will try my best to recall.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman there were affidavits handed in at the Harms Commission by attorney Priscilla Jana who was handling the matter for the family at that stage and by, if I remember correctly, a person Lizzie who was at the house when Mohabi Dibali was abducted.   According to those affidavits taken during that time of the abduction that was on 12 October 1981.
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	92	A NOFOMELA

UNKNOWN: Could you remember whether the abduction was before the onslaught in Botswana?

ANSWER: That is one of the things that I must have mixed up, I thought it was before the onslaught in Botswana and while I was speaking to Dirk Coetzee it seems as though he's the one that I thought was Jan Coetzee in the situation, I found that I had mixed up my facts a bit, not knowing which one to place first and which one followed.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman can I refer you to, it's Exhibit B.106 and Exhibit B.107 before the Harms Commission.  Those are the two affidavits, I'm not sure whether they are in the book before this Commission but it should be in the record of the Harms Commission.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman if I may also come in at this stage, in the initial proceedings we indicated to yourselves that we are in possession of the typed records of the Harms Commission but not of the Annexures which are referred to as the so-called "B Series" of documents.   Since our last hearing in Durban we have come in possession, for purposes of the criminal trial, we have come in possession of those documents and we will try and make an effort to get these two particular documents to yourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, if we can at any rate clear up what seems to be occupying the minds of members of the Committee just now.

MR JANSEN: Yes I might just add that it created volumes and volumes of confusion in the Harms Commission, this aspect probably occupies about two volumes of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.   We would be indebted to you if you are in a position to let us have that as soon as possible.   Mr Mpshe you may proceed with the questions that
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MR MPSHE	93	A NOFOMELA
you wish to put to this witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE