Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Do you think she would be offended if you had a gun in the house?

MR ZWANE: No I didn't think of anything, I just thought I had the gun on my person and it was safe.

MR VALLY: Fine alright.  Who got the keys for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's car?

MR ZWANE: Sitembiso.

MR VALLY: Did he go and ask her?

MR ZWANE: I don't know.

MR VALLY: Fine.  So you are in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's car, now not only do you have an AK-47, you are going to look for this Scorpion machine pistol.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: What other weapons did you have?

MR ZWANE: I don't know other people, I was in possession of two handgrenades.

MR VALLY: Where did you get those two handgrenades from?

MR ZWANE: As I have stated before I was an MK, so such things I was usually in possession of them.

MR VALLY: Do you walk around with handgrenades in your pocket?

MR ZWANE: If necessary, not always.

MR VALLY: Where did you get it from?

MR ZWANE: From my commander.

MR VALLY: Vusile?

MR ZWANE: Yes of course.

MR VALLY: Fine. You then go to a shebeen?

MR ZWANE: Not a shebeen, to a house, a known house to me.

MR VALLY: Alright.  Let's say you go to a house.  You shoot open the door of this house?

MR ZWANE: No, can you repeat yourself?

MR VALLY: You shoot open the door of this house?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: At some point you shoot a door of a house, "I shot one shot at the door and it opened".

MR ZWANE: Oh at some point.

MR VALLY: At some point.

MR ZWANE: Alright, that's correct.

MR VALLY: I am just trying to move forward.  What gun did you use to shoot this door with?

MR ZWANE: The Scorpion sub-machine pistol?

MR VALLY: So you found the Scorpion sub-machine pistol by this stage?

MR ZWANE: Yes I have already found it at that stage.

MR VALLY: And you have still got your two handgrenades with you?

MR ZWANE: I was also in possession of the two ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: And the other nine people were they armed?

MR ZWANE: I don't know whether they were armed, I know only Oupa because he was in possession of the AK-47.

MR VALLY: Please, please Mr Zwane you either know a person has got a gun in his hand or you don't.  Did any of them have guns in their hands?

MR ZWANE: I didn't see.

MR VALLY: You didn't see guns?

MR ZWANE: I didn't see what they had.

MR VALLY: Did they have something in their hands?

MR ZWANE: I didn't see clearly.

MR VALLY: You didn't look at them?

MR ZWANE: I didn't look at them.

MR VALLY: How many of you sat in the Audi?

MR ZWANE: In the Audi we were about six.

MR VALLY: And you didn't know if they were armed?

MR ZWANE: No I didn't know.

MR VALLY: When you got to the house and these two men ran away and shot open this door of this room you didn't see if they had arms?

MR ZWANE: The people who were accompanying me?

MR VALLY: That's right.

MR ZWANE: I didn't see.

MR VALLY: Okay.  I have a version that when this door of this house was shot open there were two people in there, do you confirm that?

MR ZWANE: No.  When I shot the door it never opened, I shot the door and Oupa pushed the door and he entered the room and I retreated then.

MR VALLY: Well I have a version that when you people got into the room it was you who dragged two people out of the room, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: No that's not correct.

MR VALLY: And Oupa Sehere was the one who shot them up.

MR ZWANE: That's lies.

MR VALLY: I see.  Where did you get the handgrenades from?

MR ZWANE: From Vusile.

MR VALLY: When did he give it to you?

MR ZWANE: I can't recall when, it would have been - I can't remember when.

MR VALLY: Did you regularly take weapons into Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ever see you with weapons in her house?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: Did Zinzi Mandela ever see you with weapons in the house?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: So you did all the things behind their back?

MR ZWANE: I came at one occasion with (...indistinct), it wasn't a continuous thing.

MR VALLY: I want to ask you one last question, sorry Archbishop more than one last question, three last questions, the one question I want to ask you is this - you say you heard about the clash between the Chili family and the Mandela United Football Club, were you ever present at a meeting where the death of Maxwell Madondo was discussed?

MR ZWANE: A meeting?

MR VALLY: Where the death of Maxwell Madondo was discussed.

MR ZWANE: I don't know of the meeting itself.

MR VALLY: Were you present at any time when the death of Maxwell Madondo was discussed?

MR ZWANE: When it was discussed?

MR VALLY: That's right.

MR ZWANE: I don't....

MR VALLY: Even informally?

MR ZWANE: I don't know anything.

MR VALLY: You knew that there was a fight between Sibusiso Chili and the Football Club?

MR ZWANE: That's exactly.

MR VALLY: What did you know about this?

MR ZWANE: I just knew that until I went to Sibusiso and to hear from him and he told me that he was having a fight with the guys and I can't recall the details of our conversation with Sibusiso.

MR VALLY: Alright, one last issue.  Sorry I said two questions Archbishop.  Tell us quickly about your evidence regarding the death of Toli?

MR ZWANE: When Toli died I was already in prison by then.

MR VALLY: You were convicted of the death of Finky Tsitsomi.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: And you say that confession was tortured out of you?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: That you were not involved in the attack on that house at all?

MR ZWANE: I was never involved.

MR VALLY: Were you in court and when you were charged with this incident I've described to you where this man who gave you training on the AK-47 and then came back and borrowed your machine pistol, you know the story Oupa Sehere?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Right.  You were charged with that matter?

MR ZWANE: Which matter?

MR VALLY: You were charged in that case.

MR ZWANE: Of the ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Oupa Sehere.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela a state witness in that matter?

MR ZWANE: I cannot recall really, I cannot recall.

MR VALLY: Do you not recall Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter Zinzi coming to court?

MR ZWANE: I cannot recall, even my lawyer asked me that question, I told him I cannot recall.

MR VALLY: Your statement says so.  "Mrs Mandela attended the court case...." page 8, "but never testified".  When you say "never testified" does it not imply that you expected her to testify?

MR ZWANE: The question, can I answer the question?

MR VALLY: Are you aware that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was at court and that she was due to be a witness in that matter?  Are you aware of that?

MR ZWANE: Of?

MR VALLY: That Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was supposed to be a state witness in your trial?

MR ZWANE: I know that she was supposed to be a state witness ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: You are not aware of it?

MR ZWANE: And I am not aware.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that you did know.  Your statement says,
"Mrs Mandela attended the court case but never testified".

MR ZWANE: Ja because I was asked.

MR VALLY: I see, fair enough.

MR ZWANE: If Mrs Mandela was a witness at that time, I said Mrs Mandela attended the trial court but I was answering to the question.

MR VALLY: When Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked, page 99, first Section 29 Inquiry, regarding the matter of Oupa Sehere.
"Well the question is that there is a suggestion that there were weapons in your house, a Scorpion pistol and an AK-47, do you have any knowledge of that?"

MR ZWANE: Of my house?