Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, he did tell me he was going to apply for amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you what for?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes he did.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did he tell you?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: It's a long time ago.   What I do remember is that he wanted to apply for amnesty.   I do remember him telling me that he'd been found guilty on various charges and that he wanted to apply for amnesty because they were politically motivated.

GEORGE BIZOS: And why was this a concern of yours?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I don't know why he should have made it a concern of mine at the time.   Prior to that, we had dealings with one another, I was doing computer work for him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that all?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is all.

GEORGE BIZOS: That would not have been any reason for him to come and tell you that he was applying for amnesty?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: We discussed many things and many things political.   I have been involved in a minor capacity in the political field for many years, I have an interest in this, and he did come and discuss this with me.   He approached me at that time and he wanted me to apply for amnesty as well.

GEORGE BIZOS: For what?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: He wanted me to try and cover up for him, and I told him I was not interested.

GEORGE BIZOS: Cover up for what?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: He wanted me to say that I had done certain acts.

GEORGE BIZOS: What acts?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Stealing cheques I don't know.   He gave me a, he showed me various things on a paper, and I told him I'm not interested in that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Clark, the previous witness told us that you, he and Mr Roodt were involved in stealing money and gathering arms in preparation for a state of war that you expected to start.   Is that evidence incorrect?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Let me answer you this way, you've mentioned a few things in the same breath, that I was in any way doing anything with Mr Visser as regarding any sort of fraudulent activities, that is incorrect.   The same goes for Mr Roodt, whom I do know, I was involved in no way with any fraudulent activities with him.   As regards the two, any dealings with arms is also incorrect.   As regards anything else to do with arms, I'm not prepared to state.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me see if I understand you correctly, that in respect of arms gathering, you do not want to incriminate yourself?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: You could see it that way, Mr Chairman, I'm not prepared to make any statement as regards arms gathering, except to say that as regards Mr Visser, and as regards Mr Roodt, the statement is 100% incorrect.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, he told us that you had knowledge of the theft of R369 082,56 from JCI, which was put into an account by Mr Roodt, did you know that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I did not know that, I cannot see how I could possibly have had knowledge about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And it was further said that you asked him to divert that money from, for the purpose of collecting arms and two-way radios to be used for the then ensuing war, and diverted to the defence of Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I don't know whether my record is wrong, but it's never been mentioned that this money was meant for weapons, it was meant for two-way radios for the Volksfront, but not for weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Your understanding is right, he didn't mention weapons.

GEORGE BIZOS: Two-way radios for the struggle, yes, for the struggle, for the struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, what do you say to that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, as regards the Volksfront, I was a member in those days, as you correctly state there was an undeclared war ensuing, however I have never collaborated with Mr Visser or Mr Roodt on buying any two-way radios or buying any arms or ammunition, whether from any fraudulently gained money or any other way.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, the gravamen of the question was not what the money was going to be used for, the gravamen of the question, Mr Clark, was that you suggested that that money should be used for the defence of Mr and Mr Derby-Lewis?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I have seen this accusation, I have also had a look at various dates concerned, and I fail to see how it is possible, because that cheque is supposed to have been stolen even before Mr Hani was shot, that's my understanding.   So how I can ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think the first question you put to him hasn't even been answered, you see, have you any knowledge in the first place of the fact that money had been stolen and fraudulently deposited into an account by Mr Roodt?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No knowledge whatsoever, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have any knowledge of that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: None.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you try to persuade Mr Roodt to use any money that had been collected in that structure that you and he were working on ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...for the purposes of Mr Derby-Lewis's defence?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you interest yourself at all at any time in relation to the financing of the Derby-Lewis defence?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Not at all.   When Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested, it was a matter of concern for us, but legal expenses were not even an issue at that stage, because he was held under section 29, he was not even allowed access to a lawyer, so for quite a long time the legal issue could not have existed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you seem to be familiar with the ways of these matters, Mr Clark, did you expect him to be under section 29 for a long time, or to remain there forever and never to be brought before a Court?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, the notorious section 29 Act makes allowance that you can extend it again and again and again.  I have acquaintances who were held for a long time under this Act, in one case three months, and I cannot say what I expected at that time, except that for him to be released after ten days would have been a miracle indeed, I did not expect that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't know that the Act had been amended, and that judicial intervention had to come into being after ten days?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I'm not a legal expert.    To my knowledge the Act was amended in some such way that you could extend it after ten days for another ten days, but the minister could refuse at ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Not the minister, the Court.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Let me not express an opinion then, sir, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   But be that as it may, whether it was going to be ten days or 20 days or a month, were you concerned about the defence of the Derby-Lewis's?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: When finally it became an issue, obviously yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you join the structure that you call the Freedom Front?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, in the newspapers I've been accused of being a member of the Freedom Front quite a number of times, and this has caused me no little amount of distress.  I have in my hands a letter from the Freedom Front, which I would like to read
"Hereby it is certified that Mr J E Clark and J Visser, residing in Gauteng, are not members of the Freedom Front and had never been members of the Freedom Front.
		For Colonel P D Uys from the Freedom Front"
Could we have someone please to send these around?

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm glad to see ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Only if it is relevant, Mr Bizos, is that ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that document relevant from your point of view?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, and I'm going to make it appear quite irrelevant from the next question, Mr..., can we just reserve that for a moment please?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: When was the Freedom Front formed, sir?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I do not know, sir, I was never a member.