Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I disputed the fact that I interrogated them.  There would be no reason to dispute that I have interrogated a person and yet concede that I killed a person.  I did not participate in the interrogation because I had my own problems fixing a car.

MR AMEEN: You particularly used iron rods on the survivors.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is not correct, it's a mistake in identity perhaps.

MR AMEEN: The two groups - or when these people were divided into two groups in the houses, you were part of the group of comrades who took the two survivors and one of the others into a bedroom and you further assaulted them there?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is no correct.

MR AMEEN: You blindfolded at least one of them.  What do you say to that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Truly speaking I remembered the issue of blindfolding because one fellow appeared and said his brother was blindfolded.  I remember at Shawella in the dining room one of the was blindfolded, I think comrade Vayli Indebela (?), who has since died, was doing the final interrogation.

MR AMEEN: Now, after you received the order and the youths were now being taken to Shawella, where were they taken to first, specifically where were they taken to.  All six of them, can you just describe that for me again?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The six of them were taken to comrade Glen's house.

MR AMEEN: Can you stop at that point please and say, just explain something to me.  You heard your second co-applicant, Mr Mphoreng refer to the fact that only three of them, that is those that were with you, were taken to comrade Glen's house and the other three who were with him were taken directly to the spot where they were killed in Shawella.  There's a clear difference in the versions given by the two of you.  Who is telling the truth?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I believe Mr Mphoreng had made a mistake, he explained that he cannot remember things well.  I was driving a car, they were in my car, my car was driving at the front and the other car came behind and the other one was outside.  When we went to identify the spot, we used the car that was outside.  We came back and reported to the other comrades that is why even when he referred to the spot of killing he referred to the spot I also talked about.

MR AMEEN: Now comrade Glen was not a member of AZAPO, he was a member of a union affiliated to AZAPO.  You had to senior members who had given the order to kill with you, comrade Sam and comrade Tamee.  Why would you people take these youths to comrade Glen's house when the leadership was with you?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I wonder whether I can interrupt?  I can't recall clearly the evidence that Glen was not a member of AZAPO, but what I know is that it was mentioned that he was holding a particular position in the union that is affiliated to AZAPO but not that he is not a member of AZAPO, that I didn't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not so sure, Mr Ameen how sure are you ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Yes, what Mr Tloubatla is saying is correct.  I think the evidence is that he was not one of the leaders of AZAPO but that he was a senior leader of the Black Union - some workers union which was affiliated to AZAPO.  Is that correct?  Alright, to put the question to you again, you had two senior members of AZAPO who had given you the order to kill, they were with you, why then did you have to go to comrade Glen's house who was not a leader of AZAPO but was a leader of a union affiliated to AZAPO.  What was the purpose of that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not understand why do you separate the union from AZAPO.  Mr Mphoreng mentioned today that when he referred to SOSCO he was also referring to UDF.  When you talk of Black and AZAPO you're talking of one thing.

MR AMEEN: The caucus in comrade Glen's house, who was present at that caucus?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We were about six or seven.  I was present, I was in the kitchen when the discussion was on and we were told to go and look for a spot.  We were about six or seven but the rest of the comrades were in the dining room and the others outside.

MR AMEEN: So you then left the six youths there with some of the other of your comrades and you and comrade Glen then went to look for the spot where these people were going to be executed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: And how far away is this spot from comrade Glen's house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Plus minus five kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that, unlike yesterday, today in the witness box you are putting on and testifying behind very dark glasses.  Is there any special reason for it or are you afraid that if we see your eyes we may see that you are perhaps not telling the truth or you are telling the truth?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is not so, there is no reason.  I can take them off.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to satisfy myself whether there is any particular reason why you are testifying today behind such very dark glasses, because sometimes it is useful to, in a tribunal, to be able to look a witness in his eyes as part of general methods of trying to assess the credibility of the witness.  Can I ask you something, why did you people from me Lingani's house take these boys to Mr Glen's house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: When (indistinct) got out of the house he told me that we were heading for Shawella, it meant that an order had been issued out already that these people be killed.  I did not ask him why because I did not take the order direct from the people who issued it out.

CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you're concerned, you don't know why you people had to go to Glen's house first, even though a decision has already been taken to kill these boys, you personally don't know why you had to go to Glen's house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I personally do not know the reason why.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now when you took - right, were all six together taken, all six of the youths who were going to be killed, four of them were killed, two survivors, were all of them taken together to the spot or were they taken separately?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: They were taken separately.

MR AMEEN: The one group of three was taken by Mr Mphoreng, comrade Sam and comrade Tamee.  Is that right?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not recall comrade Tamee and comrade Sam taking part in the killing, but I remember comrade Mphoreng was involved, comrade Thabo Matlala (?) was involved.

MR AMEEN: They went first and then you took your group of three?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No, our group went first.

MR AMEEN: Your group went first.  Who accompanied you, which of your friends accompanied you taking the three people to their deaths?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was myself, comrade Tamee and comrade Thabo.

MR AMEEN: And who is comrade Thabo?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He is not present here and he'd never been arrested.

MR AMEEN: The third applicant, Mr Thandakubona, was he any part of these people with you that went to the spot to kill these people, to kill the youths?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No.

MR AMEEN: And he was not part of Mr Mphoreng's group?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: If I can just get some assistance from the committee.  He's also applied for amnesty for the same murders, four counts of murder and two of attempted murder, but he has not been part, according to the evidence here, Mr Thandakubona.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know, we can't (indistinct).  Where is his application?

MR MALAN: Is that really relevant at this stage Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: There's just something I want to get clear in my mind, but it's fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR AMEEN: Coming to the scene of the murder, and your killing of these three people and attempted murder of the two, how did you shoot them, what did you do.  When you took them there you were in the car, they were in the car, tell me what happened, tell the committee what happened?