Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Wills, if I could just.  Ms Cloete could you - I'm running out of paper here, I need a pad.  Thank you.  Sorry Mr Wills, you can continue.  I just wanted to catch her eye while she was here.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You see Mr Botha wasn't sure whether, when an answer to a question was given, she'd be struck on two or three occasions or just once at a time.  Can you throw any light on that as far as your recollection goes?  Sorry, my learned friends are objection.  My understanding from the evidence of Mr Botha was that he wasn't exactly sure as to whether or not she was struck once on each occasion and then there was a pause, or whether or not she was struck more than once and then there was a pause.  That's what I'm asking you to throw light on.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just tell us what you saw.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, yes, I saw more than once the lashing.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wills is asking is, when the lashing took place would it be one stroke or would there be more than one stroke in quick succession, that you saw?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I saw both of those activities.

MR WILLS: So are you able to give us an estimate on the times that you were in the room, how many times she was struck?  Is it 10 time, 20, 30?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, I cannot recall.  Probably a dozen, a dozen or 15.

MR WILLS: And is it your evidence that in the main you were not in the room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No in the main I wasn't in the room, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now surely, Mr Wasserman, you have to concede that she must have been screaming?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was occasions where she shouted, but it wasn't fully, it wasn't screaming.

MR WILLS: She was loud?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: So somebody outside would have heard?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not ideally, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: What do you mean "not ideally"?  Let's not beat around the bush again.  Just, the person outside, you would know whether they'd hear or not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Outside where?  Outside the camp?

MR WILLS: Outside the room.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Outside the room, yes, you could hear that she was shouting from the outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when somebody talks about shouting, it's normally shouting words as opposed to screaming.  Are you saying she was saying something when she was shouting, or was she wailing or screaming?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, she was answering the question.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are distinguishing between shouting and screaming?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: She was shouting out words.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman, she was answering and that's what was happening.  She was not wailing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR LAX: May I just clarify?  So she didn't call out in pain at being struck a couple of times, or once, or whatever?  There was no exclamation.  Whether it was a scream or it was just a groan, or some sort of sound.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the way she did utter some words on some occasions of delivery, you could hear that it was an exclamation as a result of the whip action.  So there was a sound like that.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLS: I mean then the short of it is surely, if somebody had been standing outside of that room, they would be left in no doubt whatsoever that the person inside the room was being given a beating?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: If you were close by Mr Chairman you would hear that there was something like that happening inside.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I've just lost my train of thought.  If you can just bear with me.  You said you saw her legs stretched out.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You remember that distinctly?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I recall that when I walked in the first instance.

MR WILLS: So you've got a picture in your mind's eye of that?  That's how my memory works.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: How long ago are we talking about now, Sir?

MR WILLS: I'm talking about what comes up in your mind, when you give that evidence, what comes up in your mind?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: In my mind's eye she was seated on the floor blindfolded.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you specifically noticed that her legs were stretched in front of her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I seem to recall that, yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Oh, are you changing?  Do you recall it or don't you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I seem to recall that was the position.

MR WILLS: That indicates some doubt in your mind, the seems to recall.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I believe that was the situation.

MR WILLS: Yes and you have a picture of this in your mind?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now what was the position in regard to her clothing?  Were her legs covered or were they bare?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think her legs were bare.

MR WILLS: So the prospects are that she was wearing a dress as opposed to long trousers.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I believe she was in a dress, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes,.  Can you remember anything else about that dress?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't recall anything specifically.  In my mind's eye I believe it was probably light in colour, lightish, in my mind's eye I've got lightish, but I'm not certain on that.

MR WILLS: Could there be floral markings on the dress?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I cannot say that, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Do you have any recollection as to where her hands were?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, her hand were free and when she got whacked by Mr Taylor, her hands would go up.  Her hands were in front of her.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you've obviously got a picture of that in your mind's eye.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: When I saw it, it's in my mind's eye.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now  what clothing did she have on top?  I mean on her upper torso?  Were her arms covered or were they bare?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I can't recall.  I'm sorry I cannot recall much of her clothing at all, except in my mind's eye, light.  I don't even know if it was one piece or two pieces.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Was the top section also light?  I'm sorry, I'm asking you,  this is very important to our case.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I understand Sir, however I cannot state.  I just have a - in my mind's eye I have lightish clothing.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Well, our version will be that at the time she was either wearing a white or a light beige polo neck jersey over her dress.  Could you dispute that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I can't
comment on a polo neck, I don't recall a polo neck.

MR WILLS: What makes you say that?  If you don't recall, you can't recall what she was wearing.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I recall lightish clothing.

MR WILLS: That's it.  So it could have been a lightish coloured polo neck then?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is possible Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

MR WILLS: Returning to your mind's eye picture of her legs, can you remember whether or not she had shoes on?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't Sir.

MR WILLS: When  you say you were waiting at this base because you were on standby for an operation, what were you expecting that day?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd been informed that the unit was in possession of information of armed cadres and that their internal co-ordinator was Ms Khubeka and that Vlakplaas ex-MK operatives were doing a pseudo penetration and if all was going well, then Ms Khubeka would lead one or two of the persons to the pseudo infiltrating group and they would bring one or two, or whoever came to a point where they would be captured.