Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember who you delegated to sell the cigarettes amongst the four member unit?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes, his name was Dello.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	And was it on that weekend when all the cigarettes had been sold that you then counted all the money that you had obtained during this operation?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We had counted the money beforehand, that is the cash we got from the operation and after the counting the money of the cigarettes, the sum total was R6000, that is the cash as well as the money generated from the sale of the cigarettes.

ADV PRIOR: So you only knew that after some time, after the operation that your total amount was R6000?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: You see I just ask you that because it would seem from paragraph 17 that you counted the money and the proceeds of this operation immediately on getting back to Soweto, that you've clarified that position.  Now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I'm still a little confused, you know whilst you are on that point before - for the sake of completeness so that we don't have to revisit this issue again.
	Mr Maseko, if you check what you have stated in paragraph 17, I want to read to you what you have stated there:
"We counted the money and it was only R6000"
Then you proceed to say:
"And we sold the cigarettes to raise money"
Now in responding to questions posed to you by Mr Prior, you seem to be suggesting that R6000 represented the money that was obtained from the repossession at the shop as well as the money that was raised after the two big boxes of cigarettes had been sold.  I just need clarification in respect of that point under paragraph 17?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is true, that is what my statement on my affidavit reflects but if you look at what I said in court, the owner said it was R3000 that we took from the shop.  I could also have made a mistake because the owner of the shop said it was R3900 that was taken from the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko, I'm least concerned about what you said in your trial, I just need clarity with regard to what is appearing under paragraph 17.  Did you, when you counted the money that had been taken from the shop, come to conclude that the money repossessed was R6000?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It is possible that I made a mistake when I said R6000, but the R6000 refers to the sum total of the cash as well as the money generated from the sale of the cigarettes, it was the sum total of both, that is the cash from the shop as well as the cash from the sale of the cigarettes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I needed clarification in respect thereof.  Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	I want to just refer you to page 3 of the bundle.  In your amnesty application you set out the operations, the various operations which were executed under your orders and in which you participated.  The first one you mention, Orlando East Garage in 1990, an amount of R300 was taken, do you see that?  Did you send that money back to the high command or did you use it for survival money or for your own purposes?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We did use it for our own purposes, that is for transport purposes moving from point A to point B from time to time.

ADV PRIOR: I jump to page 4 of the bundle, incident three, Dube Garage, also 1990 where a revolver and R50 was taken.  That R50 did you use for yourself or did you - that is when I say yourself, your unit, or did you send that money to the high command?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I've already explained that at the time we reported to Botswana.  I could not travel from here to Botswana just to submit R50.

ADV PRIOR: In the next incident, Nansfield Garage, 1990, also R600 taken.  Did you also use that money for your unit or did you send that to the high command?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We used it for the unit.

ADV PRIOR: And in the next one, Kliptown Garage, also 1990, the R300 that you obtained there, because it was such a small amount you used it for your unit, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And the R16000 in Libernon Goldmine Fraser Stores, did you also use that for your own unit purposes or did you send that to the high command?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I went to Botswana and I submitted the money.

ADV PRIOR: So what was the criteria there ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed Mr Prior.
	Did you retain any of the R16000 for your own use or did you hand all of it over to high command?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I did not take the whole amount because I used it for transport as well as for provisions and when we got to Botswana, we were given a certain share to use for the unit.

MR MALAN: What was the share Mr Maseko, can you remember?  Give us the information, we need to know exactly what happened, you must make a full disclosure of what happened.  What happened to that R16000?  We want to establish the pattern here of what you used for the unit and what you paid over to the command.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I took the R16000 to Botswana.  The money that was given to me was R5000 to bring back to South Africa.

MR MALAN: Can you remember who you handed the money to?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I gave to Msiki because I reported to him, he was my commander at the time.

MR MALAN: Where is he presently?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I've go no idea, ever since I've been arrested I never got in touch with him.

MR MALAN: Can you give us his full name?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I only knew him as Comrade Msiki.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	Mr Maseko, was Msiki his operative name, his nome de guerre?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And was he based in Lesotho.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: He was in Botswana.

ADV PRIOR: I beg your pardon, Botswana.  And where in Botswana, was he in any particular town or city?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: He was in Gabarone.

ADV PRIOR: When you handed money over as you've explained, was there any accounting for that money?  Were you for example - was it written up in a book, a register or were you given a receipt for the money?  How did it work, can you maybe explain to the Committee?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We were guerillas, we did not have any receipt books or books of account that we kept because these things we were doing at safe houses.  It would be a very dangerous exercise for us to keep such records.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree with this suggestion that the criteria for keeping the money yourself and not handing it over to Msiki in Botswana would be the amount, that would be criteria and if it was a low amount you would keep it for yourself for use within the unit?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Because that is how you think, even though I do not agree with your thoughts or the way you simplify it, but you are entitled to your own thoughts.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not advised by your commander about such a criteria?  Was it not spelt out to you when you could use your discretion to hand over whatever you had repossessed to him directly and did he not go on to explain to you under what circumstances you could use your discretion to keep whatever you had repossessed if it was also a particular amount of money?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct because we had just arrived there, we did not even know where to get a large sum of money but we would from time to time get information.  But at times the information would not be correct, we would be told that we would get a large sum of money and when we get there we only get a small amount of money and then we would decide to use the money for the unit.