Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was given an instruction as I was supposed to bring order back to Secunda, Ermelo and Piet Retief.  There was a chairperson of the ANC Youth League, Sithule Hleza in Piet Retief.  He's one of the people I had recruited in Piet Retief as a member of the self-defence unit.  Sithule Hleza told me how life was there, how bad things were.  He said that they had a mayor that was an Inkatha member, Mr Msibi.  That Askaris, Inkatha members that were trained at Mpuzwa camp were staying at the Mayor's house.  Those were the people that brought chaos to Piet Retief, killing ANC members and Communist Party members, Civic members as well.  There was then an instruction that I should kill Msibi.  I was staying at Sithule Hleza's house in Piet Retief.  I went with him to see where Msibi had a business.  I was going to kill him there in front of his business.  I went with Hleza to find him.  We first went past his house and saw that he was there.
	I then said to Hleza that we should go wait for him at the shop because if there were askaris in his house it would have been difficult, askaris guarding him.  They were well trained.  They were former members of MK, those askaris.  I had to make sure that I don't get injured or killed.  I took Sithule Hleza, we went together to Mr Msibi's shop.  We did not stand exactly in front of the shop.  There was a road going down.  There was also another road going up from the river.  
	On the road going up there was a house that was being built.  I then said to Hleza we should stand by that house and look towards the shop to see what was happening.  We saw people leaving one by one.  It was a place where alcohol was sold.  The last person who was left in the shop and Mr Msibi had parked his van in front of the shop.  He got out of the van, into the shop where he sold alcohol.  He spoke or said something, I don't know what he said because he was talking to the people who were inside the shop.  
	Mr Msibi then got out of the shop followed by somebody else.  He got into the car, closed the door, but he then opened the door again.  There was yet another person following Mr Msibi.  This person put books into the car.  Another person went and closed the shop.  I then thought that was the right time because Mr Msibi had opened the door on his side of the car.  I then said to Hleza he must follow me.  When he wanted to switch the car on I started shooting.  He fell on the ground, he made himself fall on the ground and then he went underneath the car.  I then went to the other side.  I shot under the car.  The one man that was closing the shop or locking the doors had the till with money.  He was holding it from underneath.  I thought that he was armed and was trying to shoot.  I then shot that person and fell on the ground and the till fell.  
	After that I went and shot Msibi underneath the car.  I said to Hleza he must go and get the till and that he must search Msibi.  We then ran off.

MR BLACK: Right.  I just want to go back.  You made reference to Mr Hleza.  Is he still alive?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, he's not alive.

MR BLACK: How was he killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, is that relevant?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It's relevant in the sense that he's made allegations in this statement here and I don't want us now to get into a leading position ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... how he died.

MR BLACK: Well, I'd submit that if he's dead, I want to find out how he died.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: My problem is that I'm going to talk about something that I heard when I was already in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, precisely, Mr Black, please if you didn't know.

MR BLACK: No, that's why I don't want to leave this.  I could lead the rest as well and make it very clear so that we don't waste time with cross-examination etcetera.  The allegations, if you look at page thirty six (36), and at paragraph fourteen (14), you talk about Hleza being a local MK commander, was he to your knowledge?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: And also chairman of the African Youth League?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: Now, to the last sentence on that page you refer to Mr Jusiah Thabede and Mr Andries Gamede, the present Mayor.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is so.

MR BLACK: You have no personal knowledge of the circumstances under which they became wounded?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have some knowledge that I received when I was in gaol from people who had worked for the Truth Commission.

MR BLACK: Then you go on to say
"The liberation movement was unable to operate constructively and freely within Piet Retief as a result of combination of forces consisting of paramilitary trained members, of the IFP and South African Police who ensured that Msibi and his allies were supplied with various weapons and arms."
You make that statement.  Do you see that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: You've already testified to the fact that Msibi housed Black Cats.  But what I just want to make clear to the Committee and to all concerned, that you say
"The members of the SAP who actively assisted in arming and assisting IFP and Black Cat members in Piet Retief were Warrant Officer Pienaar and Sergeant Mkhwanazi."
Do you see that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I see that.

MR BLACK: Now, is it correct that you don't have any personal knowledge of Warrant Officer Pienaar and Mr Mkhwanazi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have no knowledge except for the information I got from the TRC that they worked together to kill ANC members.

MR BLACK: When you keep on saying that you got information from the TRC what do you mean by that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I mean that we would listen to the Truth Commission report.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the TRC in existence at the time?

MR BLACK: No, but without putting words into this witness' ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where's this getting us to?

MR BLACK: I just want to clarify because otherwise we're going to end up with a whole lot of cross-examination here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let me deal with that.  That's my job.

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BLACK: Because he was given the information by a specific person and it's clear that ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.

MR BLACK: And he relies on the evidence.  So, you go on to say on page thirty seven (37) there on paragraph fifteen (15), there's a reference that you don't have access to arms and ammunition.  Now, why did you instruct that the money which was in the till, the loose till be taken?  For what reason?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: We had intended to buy firearms and bullets so that the self-defence unit could defend the community in Piet Retief.

MR BLACK: So, did you have any intention of going to that shop solely for the purposes of robbery?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did not go inside the shop.

MR BLACK: No, but the question is did you go there with the intention to rob, whether you went inside or not?

CHAIRPERSON: Clearly it was an opportunistic probably.  I don't think anybody can query that.

MR BLACK: I'm satisfied with that then.

MR SANDI: How much was involved, if I may ask, Mr Black?  Mr Gushu, I'm sorry.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As it was at night, some of the money fell as Themba fell on the ground.  Hleza just took the till and ran and even as we were running off some of the money fell off.

CHAIRPERSON: How much did you land up with?  When you counted the money how much did you have?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: R600,00.

MR SANDI: And what happened to that R600,00?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I bought a firearm.

MR SANDI: How much was the firearm?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The firearm was R500,00.

MR SANDI: What happened to the other R100,00?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I bought bullets.

MR SANDI: How much were the bullets?  Were they R100,00?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I used all that money on bullets because I bought a box of bullets.

MS BOSMAN: From whom did you buy?