Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MS MORAKA: Mr Chairperson the next up is witness number seven Mr Stephen Marole Moolman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MORAKA: Mr Moolman is going to testify in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moolman are you prepared to take the oath.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I am prepared.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: (sworn states)

MS MOROKA: Mr Moolman you have applied for amnesty and your application with the annexure the affidavit and the supplementary affidavit are from page 92 to 101D.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That's correct.

MS MOROKA: Before we deal with your affidavit can we for the record place your personal particulars before the Committee.  It is correct isn't it that you were born on the 16th of November 1972 in Johannesburg?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not activated.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: And that you matriculated in Soweto in 1991?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: Thank you and thereafter you did a
course in business administration with the Newport University?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: During your school days were you involved at all with political activity?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes I was involved in the politics.  That was before Cosas was obeyed and I was also involved in the Soweto Youth Congress.

MS MOROKA: In 1992 you were then employed by the ANC in it's security department.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: Some training was arranged by the ANC for you can you tell the Committee about that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: ANC requested a certain organisation to train its people for VIP protection and the training lasted for ... (intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: The speaker is to far from the microphone the interpreters could not catch the last part.  Mr Moolman try to speak a little bit louder please.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: There was a certain company or an organisation that was requested by the ANC to train its people with regards to installation and the guarding of VIP.  The course was done in Roodepoort.

MS MOROKA: But is this also correct that before you were formerly recruited in 1992 for training you were recruited for underground you are recruited underground?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: Where are you employed presently?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I am at the National Protection Service we are studying protection.

MS MOROKA: On the 28th of March 1994 you were employed then by the ANC as a security guard.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: I draw attention now to your application for amnesty.  Your statement at page 99.  You state at paragraph 3 that you first heard about an anticipated attack on Shell House when you arrived at work on Monday morning.  What time did you arrive at work?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: We were supposed to start at seven o' clock before anybody could come because we were the security we had to check as to whether everything was in order.

MS MOROKA: You say you were suppose to arrive at that time.  Did you in fact arrive at seven o' clock?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: And you received a briefing when you arrived and from whom and what was the content of the briefing?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Everyday before starting with our work we would gather for a briefing so that we can be deployed and as to what time will we be deployed.  Joe Mababi was the person who handled us on that day.

MS MOROKA: Can you briefly tell the Committee specifically what he told you specifically on this day?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: He told us that there were rumours that Shell House might be attacked.  Because we were the guards he said we had to search people thoroughly so that they don't get into the building with any weapons.

MS MOROKA: So it's correct then that during the course of the early morning you were doing your normal duties of access control?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: At paragraph 7 you talk about given an instruction by Mr Chris Lushaba.  Can you tell us what he told you to do and where you went?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Chris came to me and he told me to go and help the people at the parapet.  When you go to the parapet you have to use the stairs.  He said on my way I should take the gun in the control security room.

MS MOROKA: What kind of gun did you take?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I took a shotgun.

MS MOROKA: You then went to the parapet.  Can you briefly tell the committee what it is that you observed on the parapet?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: The first person was Jabu at the parapet.  I was told that he is the person who will brief me as to what we should do on that day.

MS MOROKA: Jabu being Mr Molefe.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.  Jakwe then told us that, that day would be expected to patrol because when you on the parapet you have a clearer view and we started working with Jakwe.

MS MOROKA: In paragraph 10 you set out the events that led to the main shooting.  Can you tell the committee what then happened during the course of this morning.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Whilst still patrolling I would say different
groups passed and their sizes were also different you would be able to, to see or identify people within these groups who were armed with guns or even traditional weapons.  I was standing all by myself at the corner of King George and Plein Street when Jakwe called me.  He was at the corner of King George and de Villiers Streets and he pointed at people coming, coming in King George Street the others were going down de Villiers Street towards Shell House.

MS MOROKA: Then what happened?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: When these two groups approached the one in King George Street was not as big as the group in de Villiers Street, we concentrated on this group in de Villiers Street because it was much bigger than the other one.  When they came down de Villiers Street we heard gunshots and we even saw people handling their guns pointing their guns.

MS MOROKA: Please carry on.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: When they came nearer just before the crossroads of King George and de Villiers a policeman appeared just beneath the parapet and he went to the group that was in de Villiers.  He stood in front of the group and he raised his hands.  He did not stand there for a long time he ran back to where he was.  Now this group charged.  They were now walking faster.  Now at the corner of King George and de Villiers the two groups met the other one came from King George and they formed one group.  And thereafter we heard gunshots.  I would say the automatic rifle hit where we were, that is the corner of King George and de Villiers Streets.  And we hid and we dispersed.  We ran for other directions.

MS MOROKA: What then did you do?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I went to a certain position and I stood for
quite some time.  At the time the guns were still firing and I also shot.

MS MOROKA: How many times?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I shot once.

MS MOROKA: At whom did you fire?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I was shooting in the group of marchers.

MS MOROKA: What then happened?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: After shooting with a shotgun you have to recycle it and prepare it for the second shot.  When I was busy recycling it Neo came to me and he snatched the gun from me and I stayed there hiding.

MS MOROKA: When you say Neo you referring to Mr Neo Potsane?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: Do you know why Mr Potsane took the firearm from you?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: He must have realised that I was scared.  Maybe he thought he was of assistance to me because we never expected that kind of a thing.