Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I am referring to him, yes, I am referring to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Please refer to him as the applicant.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I beg your pardon.  When this Mr Zulu who is applying for amnesty, was there.  When we approached, they saw us.  They said things are bad, because they saw us now.
	That is when they started to shoot and we shot back at them and they fled.  This one took his right hand, exiting from the butchery, towards the east and we followed the other one, that he says was also killed during the time when Luthuli was killed.  That is Thulani Zulu, he is the person that died on that day.
	These are different days and incidents, but now they want the Commission to think it is one thing, one incident.
	Now let me take a different turn altogether and refer to the next incident.  It was February in 1993, around the 3rd.  Around one or two in the afternoon, because one of these elderly folks, or old men, was just coming from me with his livestock, to leave the livestock, not too far away from my house.
	At about quarter past one, after he had left, around ten past two, Mrs (indistinct) came to tell us that the people are being finished and told us that there are people who have already died, like Hlatswayo.   Mthetwa for instance, we will never see him, he has died.
	One other, we are not too sure if he has also died, that was at the time, she wasn't sure.  Indeed, we left the two of us, myself and my brother, Ngiba or my friend Ngiba.  We went to the scene and we found them laying down there, dead.
	These ones were nowhere to be seen.  We were told the story that Zakhele, Linda, Siabonga, Zita came and when we looked at the corpses that were laying down, we reported the incident to the police, that they should come and fetch the corpses.
	These boys arrived there and found these four old men drinking.  If I were to tell you about their spouses, you will perfectly understand my story, because they are present here.
	It is not true what they said that they were political organisations, that there was this political violence going on in the area, it is not true.  This Dadada, if I were to show you his grandchild, you will see how old the grandchild is, and he had an arm which was folded like that, he was disabled physically.
	He was physically disabled, he was not even drinking liquor.  He was only there in the company of the others.  It was not a meeting as they claim.  People who survived that incident, are there, are present right here.

MS THABETE: Is it possible Mr Shangase that the old men who were attacked, could have participated in the attack earlier on?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the attack on Luthuli?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: No, they never.  They never, they never attacked.  Not at all.
	They were people who were not capable of such acts of violence at the same time, due to them being old and disabled, some of them physically.  As I have already said that their spouses are present here and if I were to ask them to stand up, you will be very surprised to see how old they are.

MS THABETE: Mr Shangase, are you now an induna of kwaCele area?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Yes, I am an induna of men.

MS THABETE: The applicant is applying for amnesty, what is your response to that?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I am opposing his application.

MS THABETE: On what basis briefly?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: He has tortured severely in the area.  If he were to be discharged or get out of prison, people will be traumatised very much by his presence in the area.
	When they see him, they get traumatised because of the atrocities that he committed in the area.  He is known as a person who has been perpetrating evil and criminal acts.

MS THABETE: Can you repeat from the fact that - can you take it from there?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: They are telling blatant lies if he says he was a Youth Organiser, that is not true, he is lying through his teeth.  We are very close to Bolushe, we should or could have known about them, if they were indeed IFP members.  There was no IFP group or organisation.
	They are trying to twist this and distort this information, from what they were known, because they were known as Sinamandla gangster.  That is all there is to that.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Shangase, no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Chairperson, may I take a short instruction from the applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will have a brief adjournment, and then if you can let us know as soon as you are available.  We are ready to start.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Shangase, during 1992, were you residing within this area, the Madada area?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please repeat your answer because the light wasn't on.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I resided in Cele's area which is next to Madada, but the two areas are close together.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Are you saying Mr Shangase that there was never an area which was clearly demarcated as being the Bolushe area and the Ngonweni area within Madada?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: It is not a road that demarcates the areas.  There is a border, the border is actually next to the road.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was Mr Shangase, is there an area known as the Bolushe area and is there an area known as the Ngonweni area?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Yes, there areas known as such.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Is it not correct as well Mr Shangase, that the are known as the Bolushe area and the area known as the Ngonweni area, had persons which occupied these two different areas, which were persons who belonged to two completely different political groups?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: There were not political members, there were not members of political organisations, but they resided or they were under different Chiefs.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: During the course of 1992, Mr Shangase, did it not come to your attention that there was conflict, not necessarily political conflict, but there was conflict between the persons that occupied the Bolushe area and the persons that occupied the Ngonweni area?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: That conflict was initiated by the members of Sinamandla gang, when they actually started harassing our community.

MS THABETE: Let me intervene at this stage, I think the witness did say there was conflict in the area in his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Maharaj is asking is whether in general, the people of Bolushe were in conflict with, in general, the people of Ngonweni.  What Mr Shangase said is that a gang came from across Bolushe, and this caused the trouble and he has told us the whole story about the retaliation, the attack on the Luthuli house, but did that trouble that was started by the gang, did it result in the people of Bolushe being against in general, the people in general of the whole, the whole population of Bolushe being against the people of Ngonweni and vice versa, did it cause a distinct split between the people in the different areas?

MS THABETE: I am indebted Mr Chairman.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Yes.  Ever since their arrest and conviction, things have been quiet because there is no longer that conflict, because there was no reason from the beginning, why we had to fight with the people from Khumalo's area.
	As we are sitting here, they were actually pointing at us and passing remarks about us.  I think that they may actually have something still in their hearts, therefore if these people are released or acquitted, trouble may flare up again.

CHAIRPERSON: You have answered the question.  Mr Maharaj.