Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

ADV MEMANI: Therefore, Jacques Hechter would have known about the shortage of staff?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: But of course he would have known.

ADV MEMANI: And Bokaba, as the person working directly under him would most probably have told Jacques Hechter about a new candidate ...[inaudible] was removed and working at Compal?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: We will have to ask Hendrik where or not he mentioned this to Hechter, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: And it is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, I just don't quite understand the position.   Did Hechter have offices at Mamelodi, did he work at Mamelodi?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: He did work at Mamelodi you Honour, but never ever in an office, there was only one office and that was our office in the Compal building.

ADV MEMANI: And did you discuss the recruitment of Ngo with Hechter?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot remember ten years back whether or not I discussed this with him or not.

ADV MEMANI: But you were short of staff and a person was available in his area.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, you must remember that - at some stage I asked a date, at the end of '87 I indicated to you at the beginning of evidence that Selahla joined us.  At that stage I then had two people Bokaba and Selahla and I do not try to say by that, that that was sufficient.

ADV MEMANI: The overwhelming probability is that you did not discuss the matter with Hechter.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot comment on that, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: And you did not discuss the matter with Hechter because Ngo was not recruited from Mamelodi barracks or unit 19 but because you came to know about him through Bloemfontein security branch.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I have testified under oath here that Bloemfontein at no stage contacted me telephonically or otherwise on you client or about your client.

ADV MEMANI: And that is why you do not have sufficient explanation of why you did not follow the matter up when you were short staffed and you had what had impressed you within 30 minutes as a good candidate.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is a statement that you are making, I cannot comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: Now ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Sorry, what impressed you so much about this person you had never known before - within 30 minutes?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, it was clear to me that he had reasonable political insights, for example the United Democratic Front was known to him - the sub-structures thereof.  For example the Congress of South African Students, COSAS, the Mamelodi Youth Organisation and I don't want to say that he also mentioned the African Women's Organisation but his insights into these organisations at that stage that were very active, he had insight into and he had good working knowledge thereof.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: All those organisations and their activities were matters of public knowledge, anybody could have known about them, they were not underground organisations.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is so but specific persons were involved in management positions or in positions of control and he knew their names.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes but what - anybody, any student would have known about the names of those leaders of those student organisations, indeed any resident of any township would have known about the names of the leaders of those organisations.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That might be so but let me put it this way, except for the fact that he knew their names - there's a connection with the positions they held, he knew about their activities, for example, meetings they held.  That's what I'm trying to say.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Well, did he not he tell you that: "listen I've got this kind of background, I've been an informer in Bloemfontein, I had worked with the security branch in Bloemfontein", isn't that what impressed you Colonel?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That might be the case, it did impress me.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible] about his background?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, he did, told me that he had been an informer and that he had worked with the security branch in Bloemfontein, in the presence of Bokaba.  That's what I testified.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: And did you then - did you contact Bloemfontein?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Never, I never contacted Bloemfontein.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You just accepted his word that he had been an informer in Bloemfontein, he had worked with the security police in Bloemfontein?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, I have explained.  I sent him away after he had impressed me and after I thought that he had a chance.  I explained that he had to put in application with his commanding officer and if I received the application there would have been a certain process and in that process, I would have followed this up with Bloemfontein, otherwise I would have done all this work and his application is not approved.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Now, before you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said earlier in your evidence that if he had mentioned Shaw's name, you would have made contact with Shaw.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, that's not what I testified.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the questioning was on the basis of - if he would have mentioned Shaw, would he have contacted him, it was on that basis.  It wasn't on the basis that that was what factually happened, that he had contacted him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it was on the basis that though that if Shaw's name had been mentioned he would have contacted him in Bloemfontein.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: And at that time when you interviewed the applicant, already you knew Lieutenant Shaw?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, I knew him, I knew most of the security men in the country.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I find it improbable that he would not have told you - he would not have mentioned Lieutenant Shaw during the interview when he told you about his own background.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I have testified that he had mentioned Shaw's name.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Well, did you contact Lieutenant Shaw?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, I waited for his application as I had testified, I wanted to see if the application was approved.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Why go so far as to say: "Go and lodge an application with your commander", before you took the trouble to chat a little bit with Lieutenant Shaw to verify what this gentleman is telling you?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: The application is the beginning or the start of a process.  The information of the application had to be tested and had to be followed up and verified and if an application had been approved I would have done this.  If I had done all the other things before the application was approved, I would have done things senselessly. or uselessly.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible] been even more embarrassing of you to say to him: "Go and lodge your application with your commander" and later you spoke to Lieutenant Shaw and he told you something different?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Then I would have had to deal with that.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Is that how you handled the matter?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's correct, that's how I dealt with it.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you did say that you think you were asked: "Did he tell you about Coetzee" and you said you think the only name he mentioned was that of Shaw.  You were then asked - it was then said: "If he mentioned Shaw, you would have contacted him so that he can express an opinion".  That's the evidence you gave earlier.