Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR BOOYENS: (cont)
	Mr Chairman, the witness seems to have taken his papers to the back, may he just go and fetch it?   May I just tender our apologies to the Commission Mr Chairman.
	We are now on page 14 of your application, we are looking at the political objectives.  Just to summarise briefly, we've reached the stage where you've stated to us that there was pressure, there were political statements and there was pressure from your headquarters.   Now Mr van Rensburg, you have already heard the testimony of Mr Erasmus and he said that there was a so-called Security Management System in position - in place, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: This Security Management System was adequately described by him, did you attend some of these committee meetings?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I did.

MR BOOYENS: These were meetings of the so-called - of the five sub-committees, the so-called Security Committee, the Joint Security Centre and that kind of meeting, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Do you agree with the description that the whole purpose of these organisations was to establish a total security control system throughout the country?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: It was chaired by the defence force, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: We have already heard reference being made to elimination of people etc., was that a term that was used at some of the sub-committees or in mutual discussions etc?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember over the years that even some of the politicians - although they would have liked to cast a different light on it and wouldn't have been cornered into talking about it, might have referred to elimination of enemies of the State etc., - use that kind of language?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: How do you personally understand the statement if I say that: "A person has to be eliminated"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: To me it means that a person must be killed.

MR BOOYENS: If it should mean that a person should be locked up, then it would mean he had to be arrested?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And can you remember that possibly on certain occasions in documentation, reference was made to - and I refer specifically to this Security Management System meetings, reference was made to elimination of people etc?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can remember that, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Well, we are 15 years away from those events, you probably can't remember the exact details of those things, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: During the consultations, did I show you Minutes of a meeting of the Safety Committee that was held in October 1982?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes you did.

MR BOOYENS: And by way of illustration - you've already said to me that you can't remember the exact details of these documents and it was in any case after the incident but just by way of illustration ...[intervention]
	Exhibit F Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be F.

MR BOOYENS: We first wish to turn to the second page of these Minutes, it's a set of Minutes referring to a Security Commission or GIS meeting on the 25th of October, you were present there?  You are the Lieutenant Colonel N J J van Rensburg referred to of representing security branch, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And as far as paragraph 6 is concerned, reference is made to the: "social psychological action" and action by a certain body: "Okor".  There's also a document in which reference is made to the "Okor" documents and actions, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And what is of particular importance is under: "Possible Actions" or modus operandi, could you please explain some of these things to us?  There's reference in paragraph 10 to: "SEN Action", what does that stand for?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I know that stands for - I think it's "Economic ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: "Economic Upliftment Action"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it's "Economic Upliftment Action".

MR BOOYENS: Does it not also refer to the "Psychological and Social" etc., in paragraph 6?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then reference is made to "Intimidation being a priority"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: There's reference to oil spot techniques and then very important, paragraph 14 reference to "FNE", probably to security forces.  "We have to concentrate on the elimination of enemy leaders and intimidators".

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Is that the type of vocabulary that would be freely used during those days and which you would hear?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If we then return and against this background, look at a situation where you and Mr du Plessis would go to your commander - commanding officer and the elimination of two people would be discussed - the two deceased in this case.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was there a feeling at all at that stage that something like this will be totally contrary to and outside the broad security and safety policy that applied at the time?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: If you were at all under the impression that it could have been totally unacceptable, would you at all have considered anything like this or discussed it with your commanding officer?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wouldn't have.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, in the passing through of this policy you never saw a document in which a direct order was given by the Government or the police that a direct order was given that people had to be eliminated?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: But what was the spirit and the attitude that you read in these broad information messages that came through to you?  What was the general tenor of these messages regarding the elimination of people?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That it was justified under certain circumstances and that the details were in the hands of the people on ground level, they had to use their own initiative in this regard.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Erasmus mentioned the example of having the impression that where these allegations were made etc., that these allegations were not investigated with the same degree of enthusiasm, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: As far as Mr Madaka and Mthimkhulu are concerned, you also had insight into the applications by the other applicants particularly du Plessis and Niewoudt, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm there that the information contained in those applications regarding the activities of the two deceased was the information that you had available when you participated in considering whether to eliminate the two deceased or not?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Were you satisfied that the two deceased were a case that for security interests justified the elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I believed that.