Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: I would like to explain to  you how the events followed that evening.  The Kewtown Youth Movement held a meeting in the hall a few metres from where the bomb was planted, that approximately ten to eight you called me from a meeting and we had a discussion.  Some of the Kewtown Youth Movement members came out and there was a disagreement between you and some of the members.  You then exited the building through the front entrance.  Because of the interaction with you and some of the youth we decided to end the meeting earlier than usual, so shortly afterwards we adjourned.
	Some of the Kewtown Youth Movement members then left the hall through the front entrance of the building and at the same time members of the Cape Youth Congress appeared or arrived and asked if they can also use the hall for a meeting.  I then used my discretion and I said yes.  We were in the hall and we were planning to have the meeting in the hall when the Principal of the ELC arrived and he warned us and said we cannot use the hall because the soccer people were supposed to use the hall.
	We then left the hall and went to the boardroom section and approximately ten minutes later the bomb exploded and the whole time, in this time that I've just talked about, there were soccer members who were in the entrance hall.  So in the front of the building there were people.  Is there any aspect that I've just put to you, can you dispute any of them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I disagree because I did not see any of these people there.

MR LAX: Sorry, just for the record, who was the Principal at the time?

MR WILLIAMS: Beula Fredericks.
	In the light of this, how do you understand your own statement?  How do you explain the fact that there were people in the boardroom?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I've inferred from what Mr Williams just said, well I just did not see you, the members or whatever you call them.   I was worried about the hall because I placed the bomb in the hall.  I ensured that there was no-one in the hall, because no-one was supposed to be injured or killed.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, if you now sit still and think back to the events of that evening, how do you think those people entered the boardroom?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot now think back to 11 years ago, about how I did things, who was there, if they were close to the bomb or not.  Mr Williams, I cannot, really, I cannot.

MR LAX: May I just interpose.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I beg your pardon.  Mr Williams, I cannot recall because since I arrived here, this is now when I heard about the bomb again, etcetera, so if I did not come here I wouldn't have worried again about the bomb.

MR LAX: Mr Hardien, surely you must have realised that if there were people in other parts of the building they might be injured or even killed in the blast.  Wasn't there a possibility that that might happen?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, possibly.

MR LAX: But weren't you worried about that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I was worried and concerned about the people in the hall and I had to ensure that there was no-one in the hall, nobody will be injured and where I planted the bomb was towards the road, because I do not know of explosions and bombs and they just told me nobody must be injured, nobody must be killed, so place the bomb in such a way that nobody will be injured.  And I believed that nobody will be killed or injured.

MR LAX: You've just conceded that you saw the possibility that someone might have been hurt in the rest of the building.   You've conceded that, you can't go back on that now.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I hear what you are saying Sir, that there's a possibility that somebody can be injured, but where I planted it and where Mr Williams said they were sitting in the boardroom, for me personally, and what they told me, where you are sitting now, or where you place it now, no-one will be injured.

MR LAX: You see what concerns me is that you didn't check the rest of the building.  If a bomb goes off in a building, even if it's in a part of a building, it has an affect throughout the whole building.  That's common sense, isn't it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not check the other places because I was worried about the hall, I wanted to ensure that there was no-one in the hall.  And really, I just accepted that nobody would be injured because there's no-one in that hall.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.
	Gakkie, but the statement that I'm actually putting to you is that from the stage - look, there was a stage when the youth were in the hall, where they made use of the hall, so at that stage there were people in the hall. People left the hall, so there was movement, and at the same time people entered from the outside, there's movement, and at the same time there were soccer club members sitting in the entrance hall.  In other words there are people in front of the hall.  So you had to see this.  If you entered the building to see if we were in the building, this is now the second time, you had to see this.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I did not see any of those people.  If the people from the soccer club were there, I do know them all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, if you're in a deserted building and you inspect a room and there's no-one there and then you leave it, you can expect, it will be reasonable to expect that in the next short period of time that room will remain empty, but if you're in a building where other people are - okay, you say you didn't check whether other people were there, but we know other people were there, you can look at a room and it's empty and you can walk away and then somebody can be in that room in three seconds time when you've gone.  In other words, the fact that when you look the room and it's empty doesn't mean it's going to stay empty for the next five minutes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: And to make sure that the room's going to remain empty, then one would expect to look in the other places in the building, the other rooms, to make sure that somebody won't come in after you turn your back and go.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Unfortunately I didn't go and look at the other places, because as I've said before, I was just worried about the hall and about nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Was there a time when Calla and Slang attempted to activate the bomb and then it did not work?  Was there such a stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say if it was so or not.  I cannot recall.  Mr Williams, you have to understand, 11 years ago is 11 years ago, I had a very short time with my attorney to go through all these things.  We haven't even gone through it all and to ask me now if there were people or not, I cannot say yes or no.  I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, just before I conclude, just a few more questions not specifically related to the incident itself.  What other gang members were involved or were used by the CCB?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know what gangster were involved with the CCB.

MR WILLIAMS: Clive Peters, Erwin Meyer, do you know them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I know them, they're still with me now.

MR WILLIAMS: Were they involved?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you hear at any stage if they were involved?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say if they were involved, I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: Is Mzoli known as Ismail or is it the same person?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I knew he turned Muslin, but I did not know what his name is.  It's possible that his name's now Ismail, but I know him as Mzoli.

MR WILLIAMS: Was he involved at any stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I know of, no.  He's never told me anything about his involvement.

MR WILLIAMS: If Mzoli was involved, would you have known about it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.