Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you had a third gun as well, did you not?
A CZ83?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is so but I think a mistake was committed somewhere, that mistake was committed in Pretoria, I think they corrected it.  The serial numbers for the first gun did not correspond with the serial numbers of the gun itself but I actually corrected this later.  I did not have three licenses as you put it but only two.

MR BERGER: On the 1st June 1992 you were issued with a third gun, a CZ83?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to ask you Mr Mthembu about the structures of the IFP in Boipatong.  Who were the leaders of the IFP in Boipatong in June 1992?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not know or I don't have any knowledge about Boipatong, maybe if you put it in a more clearer way I may understand.

MR BERGER: You were a leader of the IFP in Kwamadala were you not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson, but the question was in Boipatong, I think that is what confused the witness.  The question was "who were the leaders of the IFP in Boipatong."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think the witness has answered that by saying that he doesn't know who was the leader in Boipatong.  The question now is - relates to Kwamadala Hospital or Hostel -then it is?   Yes?

MR BERGER: Precisely, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that now, you're being asked by - not about Boipatong but about Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand.

MR BERGER: Now you say that you were not a leader of the IFP, you were not one of the leaders of the IFP in Kwamadala, correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, he said he was not the leader.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I said "Were you a leader".

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: Sir, you should understand that there's a difference between being a leader and a member, therefore you should put it to me clearly so that I understand what you mean to say.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is, "were you a leader of the IFP in Kwamadala Hostel"?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I was not.

MR BERGER: You were just a member, you were not a leader?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You were the Vice-Chairperson of the IFP Youth League in Kwamadala, were you not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you still say, Mr Mthembu, you still say you were just a member, not a leader?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have just explained that I was a member.
That - the Vice-Chairmanship came later.

MR BERGER: What period do you think I was referring to when I asked were you a leader of the IFP in Kwamadala?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: How could I have been a leader when I was a Vice-Chairperson and not the Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, the question that was asked of you is not that you were the leader, in other words you were the only person who was a leader, do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you one of the leaders at Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: In 1991 I was elected Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson of what Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: In the Youth Committee.

MR BERGER: And in 1992 you were still Chairperson of the Youth Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Well then why do you say you were not a leader, you were just a member?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: You did not explain it clearly to me, now that the Honourable Judge explained it to me, I understand fully.

MR BERGER: What is it you did not understand the first time when I asked the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not understand your questioning about a leader, I think I understand leadership in a different way.

MR BERGER: Now that you agree that you were a leader of the IFP, I want to ask you who were the leaders of the IFP in Boipatong - I not saying Kwamadala, so that you don't misunderstand me this time, I'm saying the leaders of the IFP in Boipatong.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge about those persons.

MR BRINK: Did you have knowledge of IFP members or sympathisers in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge about that either.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what Mr Themba Khosa, you know Mr Themba Khosa?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I know him.

MR BERGER: What was his position at that time, June 1992?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I would not know which position he held in that year because I did not really notice those kind of things because of my other responsibilities.

MR BERGER: What other responsibilities are you referring to?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was an employee at ISCOR and therefore I concentrated on my work.

MR BERGER: Are you telling this Committee that you have no idea what position Mr Themba Khosa held at that time?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do not know, I did not know.

MR BERGER: You don't know if he was the leader of the Youth Brigade or what, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not know anything, I just know Themba Khosa to be member of the IFP.

MR BERGER: Not a leader?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I've already put it to you, that's how I knew it to be.

MR BERGER: And he was just a member, not a leader?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What else do you want me to say?

MR BERGER: I just want to make sure that that is your answer, that in June 1992 you knew Themba Khosa as a fellow member of the IFP, you did not know that he was a leader of the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's how I know it.

MR BERGER: Mr Themba Khosa gave evidence at you trial, you remember that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do.

MR BERGER: Volume 28, page 3229, line 7.  First question to Mr Khosa:  "Mr Khosa, is it correct that you are the Transvaal leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party's Youth Brigade, is that correct?"  Answer:  "That is correct."  You never knew that, it was news to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not.  I did not know about that, I was just concentrating on the case at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What's being put to you is that at your trial Mr Themba Khosa testified that he was the leader of the IFP and the capacity described by counsel to you.  What you are being asked is you did not know that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: The Youth Brigade and the Youth League of the IFP, that's the same body, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: If one talks about the Youth Brigade or the Youth League, it's the same organisation that one is talking about, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The youth, the young people in the organisation - I do not really understand what you mean by the Youth League.

MR BERGER: Well, Mr Mthembu, the word Youth League comes from your own Amnesty Application and I'm asking you whether the reference there to Youth League is the same as the Youth Brigade, it's the same organisation?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot comment on that.

MR BERGER: Well, what I want to ask you is this - are you telling this Committee that you as a leader of the Youth League in Kwamadala, the Chairperson or the Vice-Chairperson of that Youth League, you did not know who your provincial leader was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As a person elected into that position, I was not exactly involved in politics because I had a job.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu ....[intervention]

MR LAX: Mr Berger, sorry just for clarification purposes, the word league appears in the Amnesty Application but in the subsequent affidavits there's a reference to Youth Brigade.  I think we can accept it's the same thing.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Lax.