Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

NICLO PEDRO: No, I don't have a problem with my memory.  I want to make something very clear and that is the following.  It's not easy for me to have taken the decision to come and talk here today.  On the previous occasion, the main reason why I wasn't here was that I didn't want to relive all my previous experiences and I have to relive it again today.
	And also for the sake of my parents because I can see that they're also suffering a great deal of pain so I want to make it very clear today that if questions are to be put to me which I feel puts me through another interrogation process, then I will not be prepared to 
answer those questions.

MR COOK: You've just told the Committee: "I might not remember everything in detail", so you can also not recall the finer detail, is that right?

NICLO PEDRO: That which I've testified to now, that is what I can remember.  Those are the things which I can remember, the things which I've already spoken of.

MR COOK: How many years imprisonment did you get?

NICLO PEDRO: I was given 24 years of which 10 were suspended and I served 14 years effectively.

MR COOK: And you received indemnity, is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: I was released.

MR COOK: No, indemnity, did you receive indemnity?  Is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: I don't understand what you mean.

MR COOK: You got amnesty?

NICLO PEDRO: I was released as a result of the negotiations.

MR COOK: So why did you apply for amnesty?

NICLO PEDRO: I didn't apply for amnesty.

MR COOK: Did you just get it?

NICLO PEDRO: I was in prison and the people who represented me - my counsel, negotiated this.  As far as I'm concerned I was sent to prison unfairly so I should have been released because what I did, I did in the interests of what I saw to be justice.

MR COOK: Yes, you don't understand the amnesty procedure.  I'm referring to the previous legislation of '92 and '93 in terms of which you got amnesty.  To be able to obtain that amnesty you were obliged to make a list of all your misdeeds.

NICLO PEDRO: I don't know what you're referring to, I was on Robben Island and as a result of the negotiation process and the Acts enforced at the time I was released from Robben Island.

MR COOK: Who was your counsel, who was your legal representative who dealt with your amnesty application?

ADV DE JAGER: I think it was an indemnity ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was there amnesty or was it indemnity Mr Cook?

MR COOK: Indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: And was there not a general indemnity granted?

MR COOK: Yes, but wasn't the case so that every person still had to lodge an individual application?  You couldn't receive indemnity without listing the incidents for which you require indemnity.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Cook, have you been able to ascertain from Mr Pedro whether he was released as a result of the Groote Schuur Minute or as a result of the indemnity process of '90 and '92 because these are different processes?

MR COOK: I asked him whether he received indemnity and he told me he was released.  I'm trying to actually determine why he was released.
	Let me ask you expressly ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Cook, there were two processes, the first one was the Groote Schuur - in terms of the Groote Schuur Minute and the second was one in terms of the  Indemnity Act of 1990 and 1992.

MR COOK: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So maybe you should find out from him in terms of which process he was released.

MR COOK: That is what I'm trying to find out.
	In terms of which of these two processes did you or were you released?

NICLO PEDRO: Actually to tell the truth, I don't know.  I can't recall any abuses or violations which I listed because in my opinion I didn't commit any such violations.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on, may we just clear it up.  When were you released from prison?

NICLO PEDRO: I was released in April 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: After being in prison for how long?

NICLO PEDRO: From 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: 1988?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Pedro, didn't you sign any statement in which you stated the offences in respect of which you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment and sent to Robben Island?

NICLO PEDRO: Did I sign any statement?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

NICLO PEDRO: I can't really recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In support of your release?

NICLO PEDRO: I know that there were certain processes but I can't recall whether I signed any documentation in prison before my release.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR COOK: Why do you have a problem recalling this?

NICLO PEDRO: Why do I have a problem to remember that?

MR COOK: Yes.

NICLO PEDRO: As I was saying, for me that was not important whether I must sign documentation to be released or not, that was irrelevant for me.  In the first place I was sent wrongly to prison.

MR COOK: What do you mean when you say you were sent to prison wrongfully?

NICLO PEDRO: Because the laws of that time was injustice, it was not the laws - it was inhumane laws and the things that I did in my opinion was not things that was necessary for me to go to prison.

MR COOK: The period that you were in the Western Cape you were part of a cell, is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, I was part of a cell.

MR COOK: Who were the other members of this cell?

NICLO PEDRO: My comrades who are here today.

MR COOK: And who was the leader of the cell?

NICLO PEDRO: My commander was Ashley Forbes.

MR COOK: What was the purpose of this cell of yours?

NICLO PEDRO: The objective was to carry out the policy of our organisation.

MR COOK: And what did that entail?

NICLO PEDRO: Our organisations policy was to destroy apartheid.

MR COOK: And what means did you use in this battle?

NICLO PEDRO: I was a member of MK and the means which we used was to become involved in the armed struggle.

MR COOK: So you would also make use of violence?

NICLO PEDRO: Obviously I think that that which I experienced during the period of the trial, that would tell you exactly what it was about and I've already been tried for that.  I don't actually know why you're asking these questions.

MR COOK: Please just answer the question.

MR DONAN: I've listened to my learned friend's questions, I have difficulty seeing the relevance to an application for amnesty for torture because Mr Pedro is not on trial here, it is Mr Benzien who is on trial and Mr Pedro ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Benzien is not on trial either.  It's not fair to say Mr Benzien is on trial, this is an enquiry concerning Mr Benzien.

MR DONAN: As the Chairperson pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think that the questions that you put to this must have some bearing on the activities of Mr Benzien and not on his activities.

MR COOK: Yes, indeed so and I'm heading that way but all I'm trying to indicate at this point is that both sides made use of violence.  Would you agree with me or would you agree with the submission that I'm making Mr Pedro, that both as far - you were concerned and the security forces, that both sides made use of violence?

NICLO PEDRO: I've already mentioned that in the period during which I stood trial under apartheid, I answered all those questions which you are now asking me and what you're asking me now is already on record.

MR COOK: But despite that, you were convicted in that trial.  Am I right?

NICLO PEDRO: By the apartheid courts, yes.

MR COOK: Your evidence was rejected?

NICLO PEDRO: What do you mean my evidence was rejected?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] found guilty, that's the end of the matter isn't it?

MR COOK: You were convicted in that court, is that correct?

MR DONAN: As I remember it, there was a plea of guilty tendered and it was on that basis that the guilt established.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, please proceed.

MR COOK: What weapons were used by this cell in the Western Cape or what weapons were brought in?

NICLO PEDRO: None.

MR COOK: No weapons?

NICLO PEDRO: Not where I was involved.