Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: At the time that we were going to kill him, it is not that we were not able to recognise him, we could recognise him.  Because we were not going to kill any other person besides Chris, we were going to kill Chris himself, so it explains that we knew him very well facially.

MR HATTINGH: I understand that this incident occurred between six and seven o'clock in the evening, is that correct?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I think it was round about seven to eight o'clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: It is even darker.

MR HATTINGH: Was it dark at the time when you ...

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: How far apart were you and Mr Gushu when you positioned yourself when you were waiting for Chris Ngwenya to arrive?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I could estimate to the corner within this very same room, I was standing at the passage where I am indicating and Mr Gushu was standing at the opposite corner of the room.
	I think that was about the distance, that is the corner of the stage where I am pointing.

MR HATTINGH: Approximately 10 metres, Chairman?  Approximately ten metres, it would appear.
	What was the reason for you positioning yourselves?

CHAIRPERSON: With an AK47 it didn't matter.

MR HATTINGH: I think that is in fact the point to be made. What was the reason for positioning yourselves on two different sides of the road?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: The reason was to enable us to carry out the order effectively so that we could kill Chris no matter what.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, is it being denied that this witness together with Gushu or singularly committed this crime?

MR HATTINGH: No Mr Chairman, it is not denied no.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are we getting with the positions and why they took opposite positions etc, does it matter?
	Maybe you have a point that I am not seeing.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me for one minute please.
	Mr Chairman, this is one of the few incidents where we still have the benefit of a survivor and an eyewitness and I have already indicated that this witness who survived the incident will be testifying at this hearing, and she will explain what happened there and in particular she will tell this Committee that after Chris Ngwenya had been shot and killed, the two perpetrators continued to pursue the two women and endeavoured to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  What was the reason for your positioning on both sides of the road? Sorry, I think you have already answered that question.
	From your application it would appear that you received only two weeks of MK training, is that correct?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you receive no other training as MK soldier?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: No, there isn't any other training.

MR HATTINGH: During the two week training that you did receive, were you taught how to operate an AK47 and how to shoot with it?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Where did you get the AK47 that you had that evening?

CHAIRPERSON: He already told us he got it from Gushu.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did you know that Mr Gushu was a lot more experienced than you were with regard to training as MK soldier?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I was aware.

MR HATTINGH: At the time when you started shooting at Chris Ngwenya, how far was he away from you?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Could you repeat your question please?

MR HATTINGH: At the time when you started shooting at Chris Ngwenya, how far was he away from you?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say ten metres?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct, it was ten metres approximately.

MR HATTINGH: How many shots did you fire?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I am not sure as to how many shots I fired.  It could have been seven shots, I was not really counting to be honest.

MR HATTINGH: You said you fired approximately seven shots although you were not counting?  When Mr Gushu started shooting, could you see whether he hit Mr Ngwenya, before you started shooting?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I was able to see.

MR HATTINGH: And what did you see?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: (No interpretation)

MR HATTINGH: Sorry, I don't think the answer was interpreted.

INTERPRETER: Yes, I could see that he was shooting Chris Ngwenya, that is what the witness said.

MR HATTINGH: What I am trying to get at is, prior to you starting shooting, did you see whether Mr Gushu in fact, whether he was successful in hitting Chris Ngwenya with any of his shots?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I would not be able to see a bullet leaving the gun and hitting Chris Ngwenya because it was very dark.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see whether Chris Ngwenya was falling to the ground following the shots from Mr Gushu, prior to you starting to shoot?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I did not see him falling after quite a few shots.  He only fell after I had also attempted to shoot.  It is only then that he fell onto the ground.
	When Gushu started shooting, he did not fall to the ground immediately.

MR HATTINGH: At the time when Mr Gushu commenced his shots, was he behind or in front of Chris Ngwenya or at the side of Chris Ngwenya?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He was standing on the side because Chris Ngwenya was crossing the street, coming towards this open veld.  I think he was heading to his place.  Gushu was not on Chris Ngwenya's front or behind.  I think he was at the front side or front left side, it was neither at the back, nor at the direct front of Chris.  He was strategically placed.

MR HATTINGH: And where were you at that moment when Gushu started to shoot in relation to Chris Ngwenya and the two women?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was following him because I was standing quite a distance from the three or the four.

MR HATTINGH: In relation to Chris Ngwenya and the ladies, were you in front of them, to their side or behind them when you started to shoot?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was at the front, I think almost at the same position that Gushu was.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Nkonyane, do you know that Tanda Bantu shop?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I do know the shop.  I think these other shops next to where we were placed or standing.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps you can just assist us.  The witness will tell the Committee that one of the two attackers was standing at the corner of the street in front of the Tanda Bantu shop, he had an orange coloured jacket with wool on the neck parts, and a black pair of trousers.  Who was this person?  Was it you or Mr Gushu?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: My answer to this question was that I was not wearing any of the garments that you have just described, that is all that I will say.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Gushu?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I don't remember.

MR HATTINGH: She will also say that in front of Dube Tonight Disco, the other person was standing in front of Dube Tonight Disco and the clothing that he was wearing was long, dark green jacket or a coat with a white T-shirt.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I will not comment on that because all I can tell you is what I was wearing.  What anybody else was wearing, I will not be able to tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe you can tell us that.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was wearing a coat, a black coat and I had a red hat on.  I don't know anything about an orange jacket.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a T-shirt on?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was having a poloneck or bottle neck, a black bottleneck top.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: In any event, this witness Thembisile Nkambule will say that the person with the orange jacket also had the long firearm and not the hand weapon, but you would not be able to comment on that?