Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: As I understood from Professor Pretorius'appearance for the Attorney General it appears that at least twoor three of the policemen mentioned have not been given notice,so perhaps enquiries should also be made as to whether the noticeto interested parties has been adequate or what steps have beentake to ensure that they are.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: A number of them are not little policemenwho have drifted away out of sight, they are prominent men inour country, and I think we all wish to be satisfied that theAct has been complied with, this is if they wish to come and answerthese allegations they are at liberty to do so.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  I may mention in that regard thatCaptain Jaap van Jaarsveldt's attorney who is present here todaydid contact me in last week, as far as I can remember it was FridayI think, he did contact me about these hearings.  So in respectof Captain van Jaarsveldt he had knowledge, but I will take itup with Advocate Mpshe and we
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will see to it that the requirements are fully met before thehearings proceed.  We do not want any problems later on in respectof that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry Mr du Toit in that case to what extentthen is the general background to be given by General van derMerwe going to impact on the incident wherein there has not beenprocedural requirement?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  The only incident in respect ofwhich General van der Merwe will give specific evidence and thathe has specific knowledge of is the Zero hand grenade incidentin respect of which there was compliance as I understand my learnedfriend Advocate Mpshe.  He will also testify about an incidentwhich does not form part of these hearings.  And otherwise Generalvan der Merwe is called as a witness to give a general backgroundto the Committee of the way the South African Police functionedespecially during the difficult times in the 1980's.  The backgroundand the context in which the South African Police functioned andoperated and to explain to the Committee exactly how the SouthAfrican Police perceived the onslaught and to give backgroundfacts in that regard.  We submit that this evidence is importantin respect of the test of a political motive.  It deals with acontext of the deeds and for that purpose we want to introducethis evidence.
 General van der Merwe has prepared a document in which the basisof his evidence is contained.  I will ask him further questionsabout certain issues and he will obviously or probably be cross-examinedby other interested parties.  I know Advocate Mpshe will cross-examinehim.  But General van der Merwe has requested me to request theCommittee to allow him to read his statement into the record atthe 
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beginning and then if he could be questioned thereafter in respectof certain specific questions.

CHAIRPERSON: General, for the purposes of the record willyou put on record your full name please.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am JohannesVelde van der Merwe.

JOHANNES VELDE VAN DER MERWE: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr du Plessis before you begin I have anadditional problem.  In your letter it is said that you are notprepared for certain matters, with regard to van Vuuren schedule3, 4 5, and 11 do you abandon these applications or what is yourposition in this regard?

MR DU PLESSIS: Chair, as I understand, and as I understoodthe letter, I must say to you that we did not receive copies ofthis letter.  I have a copy of a letter sent to the Investigativeunit by Advocate Mpshe referring to the specific incidents.  Weaccepted that these would be the incidents with regard to whichthe Commission would want to hear testimony at a hearing and thatthe other matters would be treated by means of consideration withouta hearing.  In terms of Article 94...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: There are such categories that are notgross violations but on the next page of the letter it continues,this is a letter dated 16 October written to your firm.

MR DU PLESSIS: My attorney informs me that we have receivedthis letter.  I do not have it in my hands.  I believe that itfollows the wording of the letter to the Investigative Unit ifyou want to read it to us.

UNKNOWN: On page 3 of this letter dated the 16thof October 1996 the following is said.
  "The following matters are considered gross
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  violations of human rights.  The application form contains insufficientinformation, therefore the Amnesty Commission is unable to granta hearing due to the following reasons:-
  The names of the victims are unknown.  
  Place and address of the incident is unknown.
  The victims cannot be traced.
  There are insufficient leads for the Investigation Unit.
  Van Vuuren Schedule 3,4,5 and 11.  Cronje Schedule 2, Schedule9.  Hechter Schedule 1, 2, 8, 19, 22, 23.  Venter, 2, 3, 4, 5,6, 7, 10 and 11.  Mentz, 1, 5 and 8".
So if you are not proceeding because there's insufficient evidencein these cases, are you abandoning the applications in those respectsor what is the position?

MR DU PLESSIS: No we obviously cannot abandon the applicationsbecause of the fact that we don't have further information.  Imust say Mr Chairman I would like to discuss this with AdvocateMpshe about the proceedings in respect of those applications. We cannot do anything further in respect of those applicationsobviously because we don't have any further information so wewould like to insist upon those applications being heard.   Iwould like an opportunity to discuss it with Advocate Mpshe beforeI give you a final answer on that.  I would like his view on theprocedure.  I think we received that letter but I haven't gotit in my possession.

UNKNOWN: Some of our Committee members don't seemto have received the letters, but it would be very inconvenientto have piecemeal hearings in this kind of matter.
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MR DU PLESSIS: /...
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MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  Mr Chairman that is so.  I see itis close to one o'clock, perhaps I don't know if there is a lunchtime adjournment, otherwise I would like to ask for an adjournmentto discuss it with Advocate Mpshe and to give you an answer onthat then.

CHAIRPERSON: It does seem that certain matters will haveto be sorted out between Counsel and I would like to afford theman opportunity to do so without too much delay.  In the circumstancesI think it would be appropriate that we take the adjournment nowand we resume at two o'clock.  I am sorry to inconvenience youin that regard.  We will adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
57 GNL VAN DER MERWE
COMMISSION RESUMES

CHAIRPERSON: General I don't have to remind you, you arestill under oath.

JOHANNES VERDE VAN DER MERWE: (s.u.o.)

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I haveprepared written copies of my submission for the convenience ofyou My Lords if I may hand it up please.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.