Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: You, in your evidence tell us that you were given this order to obtain arms so that these arms could be used in order to train cadres, presumably in weaponry?  In your application the suggestion is that really you needed these arms to protect defenceless people and to help them, free them from oppression?   Do you agree that that was so?  There is a bit of a conflict there, can you explain that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Please will you explain the conflict?

CHAIRPERSON: That on the one, the one answer you say that the only reason you were asked to obtain arms was to train cadres, the other one is that you were asked to obtain these arms in order to protect defenceless people, and to lead them into freedom from oppression?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, the arms would have been used to train cadres, and that would assist in freeing the people, because at the time there was ongoing political violence.  The arms would have been obtained to train cadres to protect the community, because at the time they were not safe.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sithole, after you were appointed as an Ordinance Officer, what did you do to fulfil your responsibilities, to obtain those arms and ammunition?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Firstly I, Mr Mapomule and Mr Shangasi discussed my going to Mozambique to organise a contact.  I did that and returned and gave them a full report.

MS MOHAMED: Why did you choose Mozambique as a destination?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I chose Mozambique because it was near, also for the reason that when I left South Africa, the easiest route was through Mozambique.  I realised that the easiest way of infiltrating arms into South Africa, would be from Mozambique.

MR LAX: Didn't you go through Swaziland when you left South Africa, not Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I did pass through Swaziland.

MR LAX: So, how would you, you didn't go through Mozambique, you said the easiest way was through Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: When I was in Swaziland, I used to move around because I used to go towards the Mozambique border.  When I went to Mozambique, I used the route that I knew well.

MR LAX: Who told you about the contact in Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I used my military training as to how to approach people in any area, as well as how to approach individuals when one seeks such items as arms and ammunition.   I am in a position to mingle and interact with people from any other country.

MR LAX: You located the contact yourself, is that what you are saying?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I arrived at Nomahasha in Mozambique and was able to locate and find myself that contact.  The first person that I met was a peasant, thereafter he managed to get me into contact with that person.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You had no idea whether you would be able to make a contact when you went to Mozambique?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I did not have anybody that I knew in Mozambique, but I was fluent in Portuguese, so I relied on that.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You just went there and you were just going to enquire around and hopefully come across an arms dealer, that was prepared to deal with you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: When I left, I was hopeful that it would not be difficult because even here in KwaZulu Natal, I was aware that there were firearms that were being sold by Mozambique, but I did not want to access those, because I did not trust the people here, I wanted to go to Mozambique myself.

JUDGE POTGIETER: And then if I understand your statement correctly, this arms dealer gave you a purchase price of R36 000, is that right?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Was that about the amount that you acquired in the two robberies, the one of the occupants of the kombi vehicle and the other one in the abortive robbery of the bottle store?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I had hoped to obtain money from Commander Shangasi after they had conducted some reconnaissance at Empangeni.  I also went to the NBS bank at Empangeni on the 2nd, and confirmed that indeed the situation was conducive to robbing that place, but on the following day, the 3rd, when we went there, it was no longer the case.

JUDGE POTGIETER: How did that dealer work out this purchase price of R36 000?

LUCKY SITHOLE: As an Ordinance Officer, you do not deal in a small number of arms, you would be looking for a large number of weapons.  The reason for the amount to be so high is because there were different types of weapons, such as rocket launchers, rockets and RPG7s as well as ammunition, as well as weapons of Soviet origin, such as Makarovs.  Therefore it was not such a high price, because of the number of firearms that would have been obtained, that is why we settled on R36 000.
	Failing of which, we would have to provide a new vehicle, which would be a kombi.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just follow that up, please?  In your hand-written statement which accompanies your application, page 14 and 15, you only talk about a large number of AK47s and ammunition, plus RPG7s with their rockets, you say nothing about other weaponry forming part of this consignment?  Why is that?  You say nothing about Makarovs and other Soviet origin weapons, in addition to what you refer to here?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I assumed that because Makarovs and other firearms were small, I did not regard it as important to mention them.  AK47s and RPG7s were large firearms and they were weapons of war, that would have been used in protecting the community.

MR LAX: Well an RPG7 isn't a firearm at all, it is in fact a rocket propelled grenade?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, as I mentioned before it is a rocket launcher, commonly known as a Bazooka.

MR LAX: How were you going to use an RPG to defend your community?

LUCKY SITHOLE: As far as I am concerned, such a weapon would not be handed out to anyone.  Commander Shangasi had been a Commander, so he knew the type of persons he could hand such weapons to, because those are not just weapons you can use any how, they destroy.

CHAIRPERSON: That is precisely the point,  what did you need a rocket launched for to defend people?  Rocket launchers are used as a defensive weapon?

MR LAX: It is usually an anti-vehicle weapon, tank or trucks or things of that nature?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is true, but in a situation of war, you do not just target individuals, but institutions such as the Natal Command, I felt should be targeted because at that time, it is not that everything had been settled politically.  There were still outstanding issues that were still being negotiated, that is why I regarded the situation as still that of war.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why we come back to your answers on the previous questions.  What did you need these firearms for?  You gave the following answers, that these firearms were needed to train cadres in order to defend the community and lead them from oppression, correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is defensive tactics?  Rocket launchers and such like weapons are used in offensive tactics, whether you aim it at tanks or motor vehicles or buildings, or whatever, is that not so?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.  However, I would like to put it clear that as a soldier, you would not be in a position to not accept any kind of firearm that you know or whose power you are aware of.

CHAIRPERSON: It does not make sense to me that, you spoke to this Antonio, right, the person from whom you were going to buy these firearms?  As I understand your evidence, when you went there, you knew specifically what you needed the firearms for.  You needed firearms to defend the community and to train cadres in order to defend this community and lead them from oppression?  You must have asked him "look here, we are looking for certain types of firearms", not so?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is so.