Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, I'll repeat the question, perhaps you don't understand the question.  Was your evidence - let me ask you this, when you first saw these vehicles, can you give an estimate of how far you were from these vehicles?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not in the position  to say.  I would request you to accompany me to the place so that you can see the distance.  All I know is that I saw these vehicles.  I cannot tell a lie about a distance.  It is a place that is within view.

MR DA SILVA: I've paced the hall yesterday, from the front here to the back of the hall, it's 25 paces, can you give an indication, was it the length of the hall, two halls, a soccer field?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look I don't even want to estimate, I don't want to commit myself.  That would be telling a lie.

MR DA SILVA: You explained to Mrs Pretorius that you sometimes use glasses to read, when were these glasses or spectacles prescribed?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't use them except occasionally.

MR DA SILVA: Did you go and see an optometrist to obtain these spectacles or how did you obtain the spectacles?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I went to the doctor, but then thereafter I did not have a problem with my eyes.

MR DA SILVA: When did you go to the doctor?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot recall.  I was still working at the time.

MR DA SILVA: When was this, when did you stop working?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It has been five years since.

MR DA SILVA: So at the time of the attack you were still working, Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I don't think so.  I would have to have a look.  I don't want to tell a lie, but I think I was not working.

MR DA SILVA: Where would you have to have a look to establish when you stopped working?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I'm going to look at the date on which I left for pension.  I want to talk about something that I am sure of.

MR DA SILVA: You say you were working when you obtained the spectacles, can you give an estimate of how long ago you obtained these spectacles?  Was it 10 years ago, 15 years ago?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Maybe six years I can say so.

MR DA SILVA: Look the attack took place seven years ago, and I get the impression from your evidence that at the time of the attack you were not working.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I was not working.  That's what I am saying.  I don't want to commit myself to these dates.  I just want you to ask you know, the questions that are important because the other ones are not important.

MR DA SILVA: The Chairman of the Committee will decided which questions are important, Mr Baloyi, but in any event, what is your standard of education?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Standard five.

MR DA SILVA: So you can read and write, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I can write.

MR DA SILVA: And what work did you do?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I'm not working anymore.

MR DA SILVA: The question is, what work did you do when you worked?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was a driver and doing first-aid and I was a mechanic at Afrox.

MR DA SILVA: You were a driver.  Why did you obtain spectacles, why did you go to the doctor to obtain spectacles?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not require them for driving.  You see there are these machines that have sparkles of lights and sometimes they can affect your eyes so that you cannot see, you can have a problem in seeing, like welding for example.

MR DA SILVA: So are you saying that while you were working at Afrox, the welding machines affected your eyes and that you had to obtain spectacles, is that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was not doing welding there.  Welding affects you even if you walk past you know.  The mere look at the sparkles affects your eyes and you end up having watery eyes, so that you have that problem.

MR DA SILVA: Since the accident - let me put it to you this way, since the attack in 1992 until now, you haven't had an accident which has affected your eyesight, or you haven't had an operation to your eyes, have you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I only went to hospital once since I was born.

MR DA SILVA: Now will you please look at Exhibit M2. Do you have Exhibit M2 in front of you?

MR LAX: Someone better pass him a copy as they had to do last time.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't want this.  Is it a map of the township?  I have my own map.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, just listen to me carefully ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look, I am not going to look at this thing, I'm not going to look at this.  I can see it, but it's not important.  Look, I cannot make out what's happening here, but this one that belongs to me is important.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I can see.  You see there's nothing that I cannot see here, but I don't want to look at this.  You will end up saying my eyes cannot see.  Look, this is not important, I'm talking about important things here.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, just listen to my question please, Mr Baloyi.  Is it not so that you don't want to look at that document because you can't read it, because your eyesight is not good enough to read it, isn't that so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, that is not true.  Tell me what you want.

MR DA SILVA: Then why don't you want to look at that document?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look, these things have not been done the correct way, the appropriate way.  The whole plan of the township is here, this is the one that I have.

MR DA SILVA: Look at the back of the hall, look at the back of the hall please and you'll look at some gentlemen that are standing next to a table, what do you see on that table?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There's this plastic container and glasses.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, is there something written on that plastic container?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I can see three 3's, but then I cannot see on the other side.

MR DA SILVA: Is it written in - what colour is that written?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Red.

MR DA SILVA: And can't you see - if you can see the three 3's, the plastic container turns in your direction, you should be able to see the rest of the number.  Can you see the rest of the number?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look, I would have to go there and have a look because I cannot see the numbers clearly, they are on the side.  I don't want to tell a lie.

MR DA SILVA: Are you saying that from where you're sitting, that from where you're sitting, you cannot see all six figures, is that your evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva, for the record, it is quite that the witness can see what's on the table and also what's written on that plastic container on top of the table, so far as those numbers happen to be visible to him.

MR DA SILVA: But, Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And I don't think we can take this matter any further.  This is not the time to do eye testing here.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, there's one aspect that is important, with respect.  The figure on the container consists of six figures, he's identified two and the eye, his visibility is very, very important and his credibility is also very important because his evidence is that from he's sitting he can't see all six figures because the container is round.  I don't think he's correct, and I'll submit with respect, I'm entitled to test him in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if he is not correct you will tell us what is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, I submit to you that from where you are sitting, that all six figures are in fact visible from where you're sitting.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I can see them.

MR DA SILVA: And what are they?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: 3 and 9.

MR DA SILVA: There are six figures, what are the six figures, Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: And 7.  I cannot see the other one quite well because it is on the side.  I don't want to take the chance.