Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, Ms Khonele you son's name was Zabonke.

MS KHONELE: It was Zabonke, his other name was John and that was - that's how he.

DR BORAINE: [indistinct] was killed.

MS KHONELE: I don't know how to account this, we - we use to give but at that time we didn't have - we didn't differentiate between time and dates and the years.  But what I know is when he was circumcised, he was - that was how - that happened three years ago before he died.

DR BORAINE: Oh! so he was a young man.

MS KHONELE: He was already too old when he got circumcised.   But what I am trying to point out he was - circumcised, he as been circumcised now for three years, but his age I do not know.

DR BORAINE: Fine, I want to thank you very much for telling your story and about your experience and I am going to ask my Commissioners if they have any questions for any of the four who have given their testimony today.  Please just feel very relaxed if the question is for you they will mention you by name, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary.

MARY BURTON: Thank you, I would like to ask two questions just to try and get absolute clarity about some details.  My first question is to Ms Mia.  Ms Mia, thank you Ms Mia, I won't call you up again.  You told us that your son's name was Jabulani, on one of the documents that we have, there as a note that his name was recorded as Godfrey Jabulani, were those other names that he had or  is that a mistake?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: I only know that Simon and Godfrey that's how he is registered in his certificate.  But we have our African names.

MARY BURTON: That's fine so he was recorded as Godfrey, that's his name on his birth certificate, on his identity document, you knew him as Jabulani.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Even this name that certificate appears Simon and Godfrey.

MARY BURTON: And is that wrong [indistinct]

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: No, no those are his - those are his names, those are correct names actually.

MARY BURTON: And the other question I want to ask is [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It may be better if we dealing with the one, then if she moves away she knows she doesn't need to come back.

<UNKNOWN>: You said to me before your daughter got lost before.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Before that in 1985, she said to me she was going to Bloemfontein to my mother, that was the time - that was the time I saw her.  The next time I saw here was the day Mr Mandela was released from jail.  Even to my mother, she said to me she was going to Lesotho.

<UNKNOWN>: Wasn't she part of the struggle.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: If they say  somebody is in exile then that means a struggle, the person is in the struggle.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you.

MS GOBODO: Thank you Bishop, I would like to ask are there any children who are Jabulani's kids in here.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: They are at school, they are all - the three of them are here in Cape Town.

MS GOBODO: What are the ages of Jabulani's children?   Just please tell us if they are daughters.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: There are two daughters and one son.

MS GOBODO: How old is your son - is the son?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Smolegi is going to be 12 years now.  The second one who is the daughter is going to be 11 in October, Juvulile will be ten.

MS GOBODO: About the children mamma, what can we do to help mamma?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: The other two are with their mother, here - the last one, the second one, was dumped on me by her mother, she is now 11, that one now is with me even now.   These other two they are with their mother.
 Their mother is also struggling.  He has stands that he usually use to sell just to try and get money for him - for herself, they don't have a place to stay and they - they are struggling to get the kids to school.

MS GOBODO: Excuse me mamma Mia, I sorry, I am going to go  back to the story that you told us.  What I am trying to find out on the day that your son died, you said to me that  he [intervention]

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Yes in the - during in the morning, he was from me, I gave him R2,00 we shared the R5,00 he said he was going to go and look for work.

MS GOBODO: Now did he have anything in his hand that would make somebody think that he is hiding so firearms somewhere, maybe in a bag or anywhere - anything else.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: He was accompanying me he didn't have anything in his hand.

MS GOBODO: Was there anything that showed that he was armed?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: No he wasn't armed.  I would - I am the one who had a bag, I was going to work.

MS GOBODO: And do you at home during this whole period you were living with him, was there anything that made you to be suspicious about any firearms where he usually sleeps.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: No there was nothing where he slept in his slept in his little shack.  Even  end of Tape 8, side  ... ... [a bit of information has gone astray during the changing of tapes] ... dogs to be buried now.  I said to him, that day I was from the doctor, I said to him, you have already killed my dog, I am going to - I am going to bury it when I and his father wants.  I am the one who says, who calls the shot in my house now, you are not going to do anything else.

MS GOBODO: In other words was there any period way there were arms at his place when he was still alive?   When did you actually see - when was the first time you saw these  arms?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: The first time I saw them was when he was dead already.  The police said to me we are here to search for firearms because we heard that his has firearms.

MS GOBODO: According to your knowledge do you know if he has been to Russia?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Oh! no he has never been to Russia.

UNKNOWN: Sorry just - just on this last point that my colleague asked, was hi living with you all the time?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Yes he was living with me all the time.  He would just come into the kitchen to fetch his food during mealtimes.

UNKNOWN: [indistinct]

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Never.

MS GOBODO: You said something about the police, about the place where your children were shot.  Did you ever hear - did you ever hear about police who was injured - something that was said in the news or that was said by somebody else about this injury?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: This is just something that I had thought for myself.  I thought at least one of the police will come up and say this one has been injured by Jabulani but there was no other police that was injured by my son.

MS GOBODO: If these people were - were armed, that is your sons, I think that there must be some evidence  of that.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Is this why you were asking this question.

MS GOBODO: Yes that is why I am asking, if they were also armed, then it means one of the police could have been injured, thank you mamma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary which one do you want now?

MARY BURTON: This is a question really to all - all of them because we know that in addition to your four sons, there were three other young men who died that day.  I just wanted to know whether any of you know anything more about them or where there families are now?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: We have no idea - some of these parents were living at Nyanga bush.  And now we don't know what happened to the people who lived at Nyanga bush.

MARY BURTON: We have - we have the names of two of  them as being Themba Mlifi and Zenneth Mjobo, and - and there is still one name missing as far as we know.  Do you know those names?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: We only know Mjobo, the other one is Swelani, this Mlifi we have no idea who he is.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, thank you.

MS GOBODO: Again mamma I am going to go back, please forgive me for this, when this thing happened, I am not sure if you know that this is something that was highly published especially in the Cape Times.  Did you know about this report in the Cape Times?