Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: The three officers being yourself, van Rensburg and du Plessis.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No it was van Rensburg, Mr du Plessis and Mr Coetzee, they were the officers on the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now you remember that apparently the so-called sleeping drops or tablets were apparently administered or put in his drink by Coetzee, do you remember that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I didn't see this myself but I saw when Coetzee gave him something to drink.

CHAIRPERSON: No you remember detail of that nature.  Now you did not give the order to shoot, is that right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to tell me who and why is it that you can't remember if you don't remember.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I accept that it would have been Col van Rensburg because he was in command at that stage, that operation.

CHAIRPERSON: You see he also said that he thinks he gave the order.  But before saying that he says somebody gave an order to shoot and he says he thinks it might have been him. Now that kind of evidence leaves one a bit puzzled.  Were you standing close to each other at the time and if you heard somebody saying, shoot him.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I stood to one side, we were all sitting around the fire where we had eaten.  I accept that it was Col van Rensburg because he was in charge of the whole operation.

CHAIRPERSON: It's unlikely that it could have been Coetzee, isn't it?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is true yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If it was Col van Rensburg who gave the order, who did he give the order to?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I do not know, it was something that had been predetermined which the officers spoke about, I was not part of that discussion.  I only say when this man stood up and shot Kondile.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the man that did the shooting was somebody you had not seen before?  This is the first time you saw him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he was known to van Rensburg?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I accept that he was yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any reason to believe that he might be known to van Rensburg?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes as he arrived there with Coetzee and Coetzee was well known to Mr van Rensburg, that's why I think that they knew one another.

CHAIRPERSON: If Coetzee had told this person to shoot you would have remembered that wouldn't you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I think so yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to think back carefully, did this man pull out his own gun and shoot or did he borrow anybody else's gun?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: This man had jeans on with a holster at the side, he pulled out the firearm, and I accept that it was his own or a government firearm, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words he didn't take the firearm from someone of you who was standing by?  Borrow one of your firearms and then shoot, that isn't what happened?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman if you would allow me, there are two matters arising from questioning by members of the Committee.  May I just clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Visser.

UNKNOWN: The first point is I think that the evidence is clear but I'm going to ask you about this?  When Mr Kondile was shot near Komatipoort, was it daylight or what was the situation?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was already dark.

UNKNOWN: It was at night?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And the same while you took the body to the wood before you set it alight, was it darkness as well?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes it was in the dark.

UNKNOWN: You were also asked as to whether you knew who the principal agent was about whom Mr du Plessis testified and you said no, were you aware that there were informers from the security branch who operated in Lesotho, were you aware of this or unaware of this?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I was aware of this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much.
	Mr Booyens are you calling any other witnesses?

M BOOYENS: If the Committee would just bear with me please, one aspect that we discussed, I just want to find something out from my attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: May I place my position on record in the mean time Mr Chairman just to take up the time that is being used by my learned friend.  Mr Chairman we have no further evidence to present except if Mr Dirk Coetzee gives evidence, the situation changes radically because you will understand that Mr Coetzee is not implicated by these witnesses nor is Mr Danster, so we have a problem with their presence here, but be that as it may I'm not taking any point on that.  But if Mr Dirk Coetzee is to be called in evidence, then obviously there would have to be cross-examination and I can tell you now that there will be at least two witnesses which we would have to call in rebuttal of his evidence.  So I just want to place that on record.  As far as the application is concerned properly as placed in our submission, this is the evidence which we wish to place before you.

M BOOYENS: Mr Chairman we are in a similar position, we may want to rebut something in the evidence of Coetzee, should Coetzee give evidence but otherwise we conclude our evidence at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa are you calling any witnesses?

MR MOOSA: Mr Chairman not at this state, we want clarity the directive that was given the last time about Mr Coetzee's evidence in which case we'd consider our position as well.

CHAIRPERSON: But I want to tell you now that the other people who have been dragged here will not be called to give evidence and I'm not going to permit that you know, Mr Coetzee's two companions in the previous application. Their names haven't figured here at all so I want you to know now that Tshikalanga and Nofomela will not be, I will not be calling them to give evidence. Are you calling any other witnesses.

MR MOOSA: We wouldn't be calling any other witness, as I say it would depend on whether Mr Coetzee is giving evidence and the question of Mr Danster would then be relevant as well.

CHAIRPERSON: No no no 	whatever they do I'm finding out whether you are calling any witnesses.

MR MOOSA: Yes I think I'm clear on that, I'm not calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling witnesses Mr Valus.

MR VALUS: Yes Mr Chairman I would apply to call and I intend to call Mr Danster.

CHAIRPERSON: You intend to call him.  Is he available.

MR VALUS: He is available, he will testify by means of an interpreter, his mother tongue is Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman I don't intend calling any witnesses, I'm in the hands of the Committee as far as Mr Coetzee is concerned, I leave it in the hands of the Committee to decide.  If the Committee has clear views on that then obviously I'm in your hands, if the Committee wants to be addressed on that, then obviously I'll address the Committee on how I assess the situation to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. My Committee has decided that we'll adjourn now and resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  By that time we will make known to you Mr Jansen whether the Committee wishes to call Mr Dirk Coetzee or not.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman before you adjourn, I don't want to interrupt you but before you adjourn would you indulge me in just making one further point about Mr Coetzee please for your consideration in deciding whether you want to call him or not.  Mr de Jager has offered a piece resolution here, and that is on the basis that if Mr Coetzee is not called his evidence won't be taken into account in this application and these applicants evidence won't be taken into account.  That seems to us to be an eminently fair position but the problem is now Mr Chairperson...(intervention)