Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

ADV MTHEMBU: And do you have any comment to make about the allegations here or the submissions made by Officer De la Rey regarding the whereabouts of these articles or where they were found?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I can say something in that regard.  What De la Rey have, he hasn't found them from  us, he made his own evidence so that he can strengthen his statement.  Others he got them from the car, others from myself, because I had a believe that De la Rey, if he got from us, we could have taken photo's because they had a camera with them, I have a believe that the Truth Commission could have had those photo's that he has found all those things from us.  He found others from my house and others from Mishak May and others from Magoda, that's how we planned the distribution of those items, that is how I can explain.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but apart from where he found it and what he said in his statement, you were the four of you were in possession of all the goods that he listed here, is that correct?  Either you or one of the others, but you took all these goods from the farm and brought it to Botshabelo?  Isn't that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That's true, we took them from the farm and took  them to Botshabelo.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw, do you have anything to add before this Committee or is that your explanation regarding these articles?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I can only repeat what I said, I don't understand why De la Rey made that kind of a statement because I believe that as he say the way he says, he could have brought a strong evidence where he found all those items.  For now he just say that in a statement, he had a camera, he could have taken us the photo so that he could strengthen his case so as to certify the statement, those allegations that he made.  For us to be arrested, he was threatening us with guns.

ADV MTHEMBU: Are you finished sir?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I am finished, sir.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr De la Rey says on paragraph 22, he says that as a result of information he received from accused 2 and 3 which I believe 3 is yourself, the following items were handed to him:  one brown documents bag containing a black handled hunting knife in a brown leather bag.  This was handed to him by yourself, he claims.  Did that in fact happen?

HENDRIK LEEUW: He took those things from the house by himself.  There were many and then he opened the wardrobe, there were many things of mine and my money which was not part of those items, they haven't yet returned that money.  They used Daniel Magoda's money - that money should be given to Daniel Magoda.   They took those items by themselves, they didn't ask us anything.  They just asked us our names, then when I said yes, I was staying at 337, then did they say are you Petrus Nkgwedi, then they made us to wake up, then they were pointing guns at us and from that they searched the house, then from there they took those things on their own.

ADV MTHEMBU: But this "jagmes" it doesn't matter for the purpose of the question that I am going to ask you, it doesn't matter how Mr De la Rey got hold of it or not, but what I want to find out from you is, did this knife belong to the deceased?

HENDRIK LEEUW: There was a knife which belonged to the deceased and there was a knife which belongs to my house or to my family.

ADV MTHEMBU: Well, the one with a black handle to whom did it belong?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I don't understand what do you mean sir.

ADV MTHEMBU: There is reference to a black handled hunting knife, to whom did it belong?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That was my - my knife was given, that knife in court, then I took it home.

ADV MTHEMBU: And then he also says he found the following: one white pillow and a pair of brown mens' shoes.  Were they in fact found?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Those were with Nkgwedi, they took them from the house.

ADV MTHEMBU: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: According to the statement in paragraph 20 on page 4, your wife Alice Nglakani supplied information and she handed over the following:  one blue ladies' dress.  Was that taken from the farm?  The blue ladies' dress?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That is correct, the car that they used was from town.  They did confiscate this at number 337.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, they say it was confiscated from 1766 C?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That is not so, they found them at 337, Section K.

ADV DE JAGER: That's where she pointed it out to them.  Who was living at 1766 C?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That is where my mother-in-law stays.

ADV DE JAGER: Did some of the articles, did you hide some of the articles at your mother-in-law's place?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Nothing was hidden at my mother-in-law's place.   They kept on writing this numbers where they first tried to find if they can get some of the articles.

ADV DE JAGER: Now this blue ladies' dress, it was, you say it wasn't found at your mother's place, it was found at your own home, house?  For what purpose did you take this dress?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We found the dress in the car.  When we arrived at Botshabelo, that is the car they used from the town, we took this car on arrival at Botshabelo we found this articles in the car.  Some of them were left in the car.  Those, they aren't the things that we found in the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Now what did you leave in the car?  What did you do with the articles that you didn't need for APLA?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I cannot explain about the articles in the car, because I cannot tell what was left in the car.  Things that we took were those that we can sell, so that we get money to help our struggle.

ADV DE JAGER: Now if this is correct, surely you wouldn't have intended to sell Cornflakes, you would have left that in the car and not dump it at your mother-in-law's place?  Isn't that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I do not understand.  I didn't even see the Cornflakes in that car.  Those that I referred to was found at my mother-in-law's place, I know nothing about.  The police has got the right to take photo's of articles they confiscated, even the Advocate who represented us, refused or denied such allegations.  The police lied all the way.  They said they found the firearm with a policeman who was stationed in Welkom.  The policeman lied during the proceedings.  They didn't give the correct testimony.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you leave the two mens' watches?  The silver one and the gold one?

HENDRIK LEEUW: They were still at K Section where I stayed.

ADV DE JAGER: What did the police find on your person?

HENDRIK LEEUW: What the police found was the cheque to the value of R200-00 and two Krugerrand coins.  Some of them I had already exchanged them for money so that when the Commander arrives, we would use the money I got out of selling these coins.  He found the amount of R500-00 that the police took from me.  De la Rey took the money from me.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you supposed to sell these goods or were  you supposed to give them to your Commander?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I was supposed to sell them so that I can give the money to my Commander.  He had to  refuel his car.

JUDGE WILSON: But you just told us he found a cheque for R200-00 on you?  Was that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did that cheque come from?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I cannot recall the place where we exchanged the cheque.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of place was it?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The place was in Bloemfontein, in Maitland Street along the right side of Maitland Street in Bloemfontein.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of place was it, you say where we exchanged the cheque?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was at a jewellery shop.

JUDGE WILSON: Now what about the cheque for R1 200-00 that was found on you or found in your wife's possession?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was the one that I received after having exchanged the coin.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was it?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Are you referring to the cheque?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

HENDRIK LEEUW: They found it on my person, in my pocket.