Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, because as I say now, I cannot even recollect of having the tape in my hands, okay?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No, listen to the question very carefully... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...your evidence has been twofold... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...the first evidence that you gave, when I first started dealing with this question, was that you asked Mickey Mitchell, or Mickey Mitchell had told you that he had secured the tape, and that upon learning that Mickey Mitchell had somehow inadvertently not secured the tape and that it had been overtaped, you responded to that with disappointment?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Disappointment, hmm.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: When I put to you that Mitchell would say and has said, on tape, to me, that he gave that tape, and in fact Jimmy Deale backed him up, that they gave that tape to you, in the presence of Malherbe, you will not deny that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I cannot deny it, because I do not recollect that he gave it to me.   If he did, he could have given it to me, I cannot recollect though.   Correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I just want to get your evidence correctly, which of the two is correct, because they are mutually destructive of each other, the two versions you've given?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I guess so.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: So which of them is correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: How can I say which one is correct if I cannot recollect.   You have... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...I mean you have a third person here, which is Mr Malherbe, the legal man.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I'm going to ask him, believe me, when I get the opportunity... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Please.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...I'm going to ask him that question.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: And I hope you're going to ask him to come in.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay, because I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Let's get - we're diverting now... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...what I want to do is get back to the real issue, which is this, did you ever tell Mickey Mitchell to go and make a full disclosure of that to Judge Margo, say to him, "Look, I messed up, I lost the tape..."... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: "...I overtaped it"?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Why not?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Because at that point in time, remember the investigation into the Helderberg accident took place much much later than the accident itself.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Isn't it something like 18 months... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...if I recollect, because... (inter-vention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes, it's a year's gap.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Well, a year went by before we found the cockpit voice recorder, you'll remember that?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: So at that point in time the whole investigation, all documents, were under control of DCA, okay, and we were not... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Except the ZUR tape?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That's right, because it was missing.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And it was missing... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...they found out that it was missing three weeks after the fatal accident?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Apparently, I cannot recollect when that was said to me, you're saying three weeks, I accept that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I'm telling you that both Rene van Zyl and Roy Downes found out that that tape was missing three weeks.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I accept that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   Could you explain to me, the tape now having been secured by Mickey Mitchell, and according to him given into your hands, how Captain Du Toit would be in a position to say to Roy Downes and to Rene van Zyl that he had listened to the tape and there was nothing on it?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Mr Chairman, could I find out which Captain Du Toit this was?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I've given you the full information, I think his name was Charl du Toit.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Charl du Toit, correct, okay, I'm aware of Charl du Toit.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now he made a statement to Rene van Zyl, saying, "I've listened to the tape and there's nothing on it", when could he have done that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Do you think it is possible that he could have done that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now let me... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I mean if the tape went missing, okay, and it was only found out three weeks later, what happened to that tape?   I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, you must be aware that Margo made the following finding:  he said the ZUR tape either was over-taped or was inadvertently lost.   You're aware of that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Sorry, you must give a verbal response.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Let me put to you the reasons why I say that cannot possibly be true.   If the tape had been inadvertently overtaped, somebody would have gone to Margo and said, "There is the tape".   Did anybody, to your knowledge, do that during the inquiry?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not to my knowledge.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Ever?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not to my knowledge.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Therefore that cannot be a viable version, do you agree with me, Mr Van der Veer?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know, because I have no knowledge.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But just reason it through and logic.   If I've damaged a tape so that it can no longer provide the tape recorded information, the honest, open thing to do would be to go to the judge running the inquiry and say to him, "There is the overtaped tape, there is its card, there's all the information, I'm sorry, we've blued".   Now nobody did that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not to the best of my knowledge.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I can assure you, I've read the inquiry extremely carefully, nobody did that.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Therefore that cannot be a correct version.   Now let's deal with that, that cannot be so.   The next step is to find out what happened to the tape and who was responsible.   Do you know whether Captain Mitchell ever made any statement?   He sat in the court listening to the inquiry, he realised that there was a great to-do being made about the missing tape, are you aware of any statement that Captain Mitchell made to elucidate and to put the judge out of his misery?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not to the best of my knowledge, but then I didn't attend the whole court case... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...I didn't read the proceedings, I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But you are correct, Jimmy Deale was not called or questioned on the missing tape.   Not only was Jimmy Deale not called, Mitchell had overheard Judge Margo's alleged displeasure at the missing tape, and failed, either through his attorneys or your attorneys, to furnish the judge with the missing piece, to say that either he had overtaped it, or got it back into the system, and explained how, or that he had given it into your hands, as he alleges.  Could you explain that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I can't.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: There is no explanation.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Well I can't explain it... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...because I'm not aware of the detail.