Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is because among us there was no one who could drive a car and we had to use a car to come back, I assume.  From Bahai we had to use a car, I assume.

ADV GCABASHE: On your understanding of what happened at Bahai, what was the primary intention - to kill whites, or to ensure that you got a car on Sunday to take back to Transkei?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: According to my understanding Ma'am, the intention of that attack was to kill whites who were right inside the Bahai Church and to get anything that could be of assistance to APLA, like a motor vehicle, firearms if they had them, money, anything that could be useful in APLA.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, we have heard from Mrs Anvari that there were no regular meetings at that Church.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I also heard her saying so.

ADV GCABASHE: We have also heard in evidence that one of the deceased had a brand new Jetta that was one month old.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And that is in fact the car that was taken, rather than the Sierra or the third car that was there.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And correct me if I am mistaken here, your comrades had been in East London a few days, I initially understood it to be a week, but you mentioned Wednesday, but they had been there a few days before the mission on Sunday?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And when you look at Pala Pala's evidence, Tona's evidence, he says that they actually went around scouting for a motor vehicle in that week.  You heard him saying that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I heard him saying so.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, just as one aspect of this case, is it not possible that Tona was indeed correct, he wasn't lying, that indeed you had either heard about the Jetta or seen the Jetta and were waiting for a chance to get that vehicle and that was indeed the primary reason for going to the Church?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is not like that Ma'am.  It is not like that.
	The Jetta was found because we went to the Church.  We could get any type of a car because Tona was given three keys and he was told to choose the car that is the right one.  He is the one who knows more about the speed of cars.
	Then he said it was the Jetta, while he was taking the Jetta, we were right inside the Church, but he decided that the suitable car would be a Jetta.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, the other aspect that was put to you again by Mrs Anvari, was the haste in which you said you had to get back to Transkei.
	You were in a hurry to get back once you had the car.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: We were very much in a hurry to go to Transkei after the mission was completed.  It is not because of the car.  We had to go back to Transkei, we were in a hurry because of the mission we just did.  It is not the car, the car is not the main reason for us to be in a hurry to go to Transkei.

ADV GCABASHE: But by the same token you came back, and I will go straight to the Highgate incident, the hotel incident.
	You hit the hotel, using the car of a Policeman or somebody who is associated to a Policeman and yet you are not in the same hurry to get out of East London.  Why was there no hurry in this instance?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: We were not that much in a hurry to go out of East London after that incident, because at the time we had a lot of missions to accomplish, besides the Highgate incident.
	As I told you that Highgate was just among the missions we had planned, but on that Saturday, Friday, we were not going to the Highgate Hotel.  We were going to the station bar that is right in town, in East London.
	But as we went passed Highgate Hotel, we just saw that this place was full and we can also get inside this one and attack, that is the reason that we were not in a hurry, because we had a lot of operations to perform.  That was not Highgate Hotel only.

ADV GCABASHE: Then, the last aspect relates to Da Gama.  As I understood Mr Ncamazana's evidence yesterday, and you heard the evidence, at the time that you were shooting, he thought that Kid and TNT had abandoned you, he didn't see where they had gone to during the shooting, and he actually jumped either you or Luvuyo to get out while the shooting was going on, and eventually he got away.
	Where exactly were Kid and TNT, can you just describe that scene to us as you  experienced it?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As our car was parked on the left hand side, just opposite the gate of the Da Gama factory, Kid alighted from the vehicle and he shot at the bus.  TNT followed.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he get out, or did he shoot from the car, TNT?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: They alighted from the vehicle and TNT followed, he also went out of the vehicle and the securities of the Da Gama factory shot back and other bullets hit the car.
	The one bullet hit the car and one bullet hit Kid.  Another bullet came and hit TNT.

ADV GCABASHE: And where were you at that time, in the car?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I was inside the car as Kid was hit by the bullet.   Comrade Dumisani was next to the door, the one from where the direction of the bullet was coming from and on the driver's seat, there was Luvuyo, the late Luvuyo.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you still there when the Police Stability Unit arrived?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I had already gone, I was not at the scene at the time.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, the last aspect on this that strikes me as strange is, you said again in response, I think it was to Mrs Anvari, that at all times, we thought about the Police.  In all cases, we thought about what we were doing, and being able to retreat unharmed, because you had planned the thing properly, do you remember saying something like that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I remember saying that.

ADV GCABASHE: But that wasn't true in this case, was it because you did not even know that there was a Security vehicle that followed the bus.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is so, we didn't even know that there was a Security car that was following the bus because we were not told from the time that we were given instructions, we were not told that there is a car that normally escorts the bus.
	We were amazed, we were surprised at the time to realise that the bus was actually escorted.

ADV GCABASHE: But whose responsibility was it to strategise and plan and know exactly what was going to happen on the day?  I thought you said the Unit would depend, it would depend on what things looked like and you changed your plans?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is the responsibility of the Commander to tell the Unit that as I am sending you to such and such a place, the situation is like this.  You will find so many people there, you will find a certain number of people there, but unfortunately we did not get that type of information in this Da Gama incident.
	We were surprised when we got there, but when I was just thinking, I just told myself that he wouldn't know because there was this old man, whose car was hijacked by us and he went straight, the one who went straight to Da Gama and we came back.  That old man didn't hear us talking about going to Da Gama, but he just heard that we missed whatever.  Maybe he is the one that went to tell the Police that certain people hijacked his car, because they went to a certain place.
	And maybe he would even tell them that the time went against them, and they couldn't carry on the mission, but I thought maybe it was that old man, or maybe the Commander who was giving us the instruction, he didn't know that the bus was escorted, because it was not escorted initially.  Before, they never used to escort the bus.  That is what happened.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, what did Jimmy Jones say when you filed your report, gave him your report and told him about that Security vehicle.  What was his reaction?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: When I told him about this Security vehicle, he was surprised that the bus was escorted.  I think he also didn't know that the bus would be escorted.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, thank you Chairman.