Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-05

MR LYSTER:  Mrs de Haas, thank you very, very much for that submission.  The work of non-affiliated monitors is and always has been vital to a proper understanding of the political violence in this province and we know that what you have said and the allegations that you have made this morning are not generalised allegations and that they are backed up by a substantial amount of  empirical evidence.  Your efforts are obviously an important source for the Truth Commission in our attempt to come to an understanding of what has taken place in this province over the past ten years and we thank you very much for your well-prepared submission.  Thank you very much indeed.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

MR LYSTER: /MR LYSTER

MR LYSTER: It's Mrs Josephina Msweli.  Good afternoon, Mrs Msweli.  Thank you very much for coming in.  You've come to tell us about the death of your son, Simon Msweli, and also Michael Mthetwa.  Before you tell us that story please can you stand up and take the oath.

JOSEPHINE MSWELI: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

MR LYSTER: Thank you.  Dr Mgojo will assist you now with your evidence.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Msweli, before I start asking you questions, you are with someone.  Can you please introduce her?

WITNESS:   She's my daughter.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is she going to help you while you give your testimony or is she just here to comfort?

WITNESS:   No, she'll help me.  Where I forget, she'll just remind me of some events.

MR LYSTER: What is your full name please?

JOSEPHINE MSWELI: Irene Msweli.
OATH ADMINISTERED TO MS MSWELI

KHOZA MGOJO: Good day, Mrs Msweli and Irene.  Mrs Msweli, I would like you to paint a picture for us in connection with your family.  How many members of the family?

WITNESS:  I lost my husband in 1980.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Was he sick?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was.

KHOZA MGOJO:  And how many kids do you have?

WITNESS:   I have seven.

KHOZA MGOJO:  How old are your children?  Your firstborn?

WITNESS:  The firstborn was born in 1952.  Her name is Nellie Msweli.  She's married now.  Second-born is Irene Msweli.  Irene is the one that I'm with here.  She was born in 1954.  I'm not married.  I'm working. Do you have children?   ---   My other sister is Ileta Msweli.  She's not married she's at home.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is she working?

WITNESS:   Yes, she's working at home.  The fourth-born is Henry.  He was born in 1959.  Yes, he's married but I think he's separated with his wife.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is he working?

WITNESS:   Yes, he's working at Richards Bay.  The fifth-born was born in 1961.  She's married.  Liliet was born in 1966.  She's at home and she's not married.   She's also not working.  She's at the forest or that's where she's working.

KHOZA MGOJO:  You mean she's working?

WITNESS:   She's working at the forest.  The last-born is Primrose and she was born in 1973.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What is she doing?

WITNESS:   She's just completed her matric and she's not working.

KHOZA MGOJO:  These are all your kids?

WITNESS:   Yes, these are my kids and I also have grandchildren.

KHOZA MGOJO:  How many grandchildren do you have?

WITNESS:   There are many.  It's better if we don't count them.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Now, I have a full picture of your family, Mrs Msweli.  In your family do you belong to any political organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes, we are ANC members.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Where do you stay?

WITNESS:   We're staying at KwaSokhulu.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Mrs Msweli, you are here to tell us more about what happened about your son but you also mentioned someone Michael Mthetwa.  Who is Michael Mthetwa?

WITNESS:   Michael Mthetwa is Ntombikanina's husband.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Who's Ntombikanina?

WITNESS:   Ntombikanina Mthetwa.  Simon Msweli went to see Michael Mthetwa or to visit him. Are you related to Ntombikanina?   ---   No, I'm not.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Where is Ntombikanina?

WITNESS:   She's here.  Ntombikanina came here yesterday and she related her story to you about Michael.  I'm here for my son.

KHOZA MGOJO:  In other words, we're going to talk about Simon Msweli, your son.

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO:  You said in your statement Simon Msweli was killed and police also tortured you.

WITNESS:   Yes, police tortured me very badly.

KHOZA MGOJO:  I just want to establish if police really tortured you.

WITNESS:   Yes, they did.  They used to pull me by my hair.

KHOZA MGOJO:  In 1989 you said something about the chief.  Tell us more about the chief.

WITNESS:   In 1989 the chief took over the Msweli place and when I told the chief that this place belongs to Msweli ... (incomplete)

KHOZA MGOJO:  Who's the chief's name?

WITNESS:   It's Sipho Mthiyani.

KHOZA MGOJO:  And you mean the chief took your son-in-law's place?

WITNESS:   Yes, and he gave it to other people.  And after I failed fighting that, he came to see me at home and he said he was taking over the place and he asked me where I got such a big place and that he was going to hand it over to somebody to plant gum-trees.  He said I must take out the fence that I had put around the fields because he was putting somebody new in that place and I told him that I had spent a lot of money trying to make the land fertile for planting or ploughing it.  I refused that he should take that particular place.  Then he called me to the chief's place.  That is where there  was a trial held.

KHOZA MGOJO:  I just want to get to the background of the matter.  This chief, was he a member of a political organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was a member of Inkatha but he never grew up in that particular place.  He was from Swaziland and he came back and joined Inkatha.

KHOZA MGOJO:  So you refused to hand over the land.  Why didn't you report the matter to the police?

WITNESS:   When I came back from the chief's place, the chief said he did not want to take Msweli's place.  That was Chief Mthiyani.  He said he didn't want to take Msweli's land.  I must go back and speak to the induna.  The induna said to me he doesn't want to speak to me.  I should just take out the fence that I had put round the field because he had sold that particular piece of land to a certain person and he didn't want to speak to me.  He was selling the land over to the Shabani family and they were going to plant gum-trees there.

KHOZA MGOJO:  How was he going to hand over the place because that was a land allocated to you?

WITNESS:   That was Msweli's place.  That's where he grew up.  He stayed there for quite a long time and that was his place.  He was known by the chief.  He said he was going to sell it to Shabani.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What was Shabani?