Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

ADV DE JAGER: During the adjournment could we perhaps, Mr Black, could you make copies of the original application so that it could be handed to the other parties and to ourselves?

MR BLACK: Certainly I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser what is your attitude towards the request?   Maybe you should blame the Committee more because we sort-of became uncomfortable about Mr Rossouw picking up the document now and just proceeding on it.   We sort of maybe pushed him into this kind of request, but we would like to satisfy ourselves that things proceed in the proper way.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman we have no objection.  May we just point out, and we don't want to enter the arena of the argument, but we do have an interest, you know that this witness implicates some of our - and what we wish to point out Mr Chairman is that perhaps we are chasing the dog's tail because if we don't have the annexure which is referred to in that document and apparently this is not available, it may very well be that we can't continue with this thing.  I am just mentioning it as a factor.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja well we will consider that when we come to it.  We are going to adjourn.  Mr Black will you assist Mr Rossouw as far as possible in making copies of that document, and we would be happy if we could get our own copies during tea time before we come back.  We will adjourn until 11:30.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We will have as EXHIBIT A  the report by the Investigative Unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
	And EXHIBIT B would be a form completed by the applicant dated the 6th of June 1997.
	Mr Rossouw.

MR ROSSOUW: As the Committee pleases Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman just to inform the Committee the original application on which the applicant's application is based today, which was handed in during December 1996 has been shown to the applicant.  He identified it as his application and I will request that it be handed in as EXHIBIT C.   That application I have been informed that copies thereof have been provided to the Committee and the Committee will note that the application refers to a statement by the applicant which is in the possession of the Attorney General, Transvaal.  The statement which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We won't make it C, it is the application itself, it's not an Exhibit, so we are just going to file it as an application.

MR ROSSOUW: As the Committee pleases.  Mr Chairman the statement which is referred to in the application which was made by the applicant and handed to the Attorney General has been provided by Mr Black and I believe copies thereof have also been provided to the Committee.
	Mr Chairman furthermore I would like to inform the Committee that in terms of an arrangement between our firm and the Amnesty Committee it was agreed that because instruction was only received a few days prior to the cut-off date in May this year that the applicants represented by us would be allowed either to substitute or to supplement their applications, and letters to that effect have been written.  I believe that Advocate Black will also confirm that there is such an arrangement.  And it is in terms of that arrangement that Exhibit B was prepared and is presented as supplementing the application before the Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes Mr Paulsen, I would like to put it on record, Mr Paulsen in fact phoned the Amnesty Committee and he spoke to me.  I told him that if there's a valid application further particulars to the application could be supplied, and he told me that he will supply further particulars because he's only received instructions then.  So it wasn't in the form of a new application, I appreciate it that it seems as though they have tried to condense the annexure and the application into one document.  But as I say it can't be a new application, it should be further particulars to an application.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I confirm that it is only a supplementary, supplementing to the application.  If the Committee will then allow me to just identify the various documents placed before the applicant.
	Mr Sehlwana can you look at the application form in front of yourself with the date 12 December 1996 of the Amnesty Committee thereon, can you identify is that your application?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct I wrote the application.

MR ROSSOUW: Is that your signature on the application?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct, it's my signature.

MR ROSSOUW: There's also placed before you an affidavit, another affidavit, can you identify that affidavit?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes it's also mine.

MR ROSSOUW: To whom did you make this affidavit?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The first one I gave it to Superintendent de Lange.

MR ROSSOUW: When you refer to the first one you mean the one that was dated the 28th of November 1996?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: If you just look at the second last page.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It's on the 9th of December 1996.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana I believe you are looking at the application.  I want you to look at the affidavit, the first one that you deposed to to de Lange.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Rossouw in view of the fact that these have now been numbered as an exhibit, won't it be faster if you simply number before your witness all the exhibits and simply refer to the exhibits as numbers, I think it will facilitate the proceedings better.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I believe that this one has not yet been allocated an exhibit number, this affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: It's an application, it cannot be an exhibit, it's an application.  We can't have it as an exhibit.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ja, I'm referring to the other two documents, so that you will know that the other document which has not been numbered is the application that we want him to refer to.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sehlwana the document that is being shown to you now, it's a long statement, if you could listen to the Interpreter and listen to what I am saying, forget about the documents in front of your for a while, the document that is being shown to you, did you sign that document?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I signed the document.

CHAIRPERSON: Your signature appears at the bottom of every page of that document?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that statement was signed and sworn to by you on the 28th of November 1996.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Rossouw, I think we should proceed to hear the evidence now.

MR ROSSOUW: As the Committee pleases.  Mr Sehlwana during 1986 you were employed with the South African Police, is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And can you describe to the Committee what your functions were at that stage and where were you stationed?