Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR MALAN: But the question that I am asking is that the killing of people, did you see this as a primary activity of the AWB?  The bombs were the terror act and it is a miracle that people were not killed in your area?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, the killing of people was another matter.

MR MALAN: Then, when you were detained in prison, and if I can remember correctly, that the Orde Boerevolk was established and you co-ordinated this movement?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I was not at the Orde Boerevolk involved.

MR MALAN: I am sorry, I am talking about ...

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The Afrikaner Volkstaat movement, we tried to move away from the AWB and then we established the Bond of Boere Soldiers, that is correct yes.

MR MALAN: That is correct, that is the organisation's name I am looking for.  Were you involved, or were you detained at any stage with the applicants in the same jail?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No.

MR MALAN: Do you know if any one of them are members of the Boere Bond Krygsgevangenis?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, the Bond of Boere Krygsgevangenis, we did not have an official membership.  It was in order to get the applications between them and the TRC to co-ordinate that.  So we created the movement so that we could talk around issues regarding this, for example with Dr Boraine I had certain discussions and Dr Ruben Richards,  they assisted us in order to relieve some of the problems.
	Dr Ruben Richards and Piet Meiring was at the prison.  He asked them if they were willing to take part in a programme of reconciliation and all the applicants said yes, they are willing to take part in a programme of reconciliation.  There is a good relationship between Dr Meiring, Richardson and the prisoners.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you talking about these specific applicants?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, that is true.

MR MALAN: Then finally, it sounds as if you are saying and I think it is an approach that is shared through out the whole TRC, that there is also sympathy for the people who because of the political history, now find themselves in a position where they have to apply for amnesty, and that is why we sometimes feel that one has to help them, and I do see in you sympathy and it is in opposition to what you said about Mr Terreblanche, where he would rather not get involved, is that a correct summary of the situation?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it is true, but it is not just empathy or sympathy with the applicants.  For me there is also empathy with the victims.  I was part of a creation of this Frankenstein.  On the stage I stood there and incited young men to kill, to plant bombs and I would like to and if Mr Chairperson would excuse me, in that capacity, I do not expect that the victims to forgive me, but in my capacity I would also like to say today and on behalf of the applicants, that we in the AWB who placed us on this road, that we do feel remorse.
	I think it is a great loss to lose a child and to loose a family member and the other day I looked in the gallery of the people, and I asked myself what did we do, what were we busy with and I would just like to say to the victims, I do not expect of them to forgive us, but let us take hands and look forward and see if we can't make some good from this whole matter.  I would like to tell them that I am sorry they went through very bitter times and also then on the applicants that were young men and who looked up at us, today I would like to say that I am sorry for the sorrow that I caused.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Kriel.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kriel, could you just indicate since when have you known the applicants in a personal capacity?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The applicants?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I saw some of the applicants and I heard about some of them, while we were busy with the terror acts, but I was not personally involved with them.
	Because I was busy with the bombs, we did not really communicate with other task forces lower down.  They were in a different task group.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is have you met them personally, do you know who Phil Kloppers was, do you know what he looks like, could you just maybe elaborate?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, I saw Mr Phil Kloppers in Ventersdorp.  At certain stages there was - some people said to me that he was a very qualified person and that he had received good training in the Defence Force, but as far as I can remember we did not have an intimate discussion or really talked to each other a lot.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is directed to if you had any personal loyalty towards the - or built up a loyalty relationship with the applicants, on a personal level, not as members of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, it is so.  I visited all the prisons right through the country and I had a lot of empathy with them and I handled their problems and a relationship was built up between us.

ADV BOSMAN: Before you gave your evidence, did you have a personal relationship with them?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kriel, there was one question, if you will just give me one moment, I would just like to find it.
	Mr Chairman, may I reserve that question, I am afraid it has just for a moment slipped my mind.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever speak to Mr Oelofse about this, the application, the applications now before us?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes,  Mr Chairman, I saw Mr Oelofse in December and he told me that he was sorry that the problem existed between me and Terreblanche and we discussed the applications.
	Mr Oelofse at that stage, he also sat in at the Bond of Boere Krygsgevangenis and he said he was going to leave the AWB.  At one stage I said to Oelofse that he is going to be incriminated and I asked him that he and Kloppers should get together.  He didn't want to go and see Kloppers.
	I saw him at several times, I asked him to go and see Kloppers because Kloppers said that you gave him instructions and now you guys can talk and look each other in the eye and I thought with this amnesty, we should all take hands and by means of this process, but Oelofse did not want to go and see this man and afterwards I made the conclusion that he was trying to evade the whole situation about talking to Kloppers.
	I then told him that I was going to support the people and afterwards I learnt he returned to the AWB.  He said to me that he would never admit that he gave instructions and then he said he would rather try his luck in court, he would try his luck in court.  That is the expression he used.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the people with whom you were engaged in war and who were to be killed, who were they?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, we had consensus and we agreed that the ANC, the National Party leaders, Pik Botha, F.W. de Klerk, Roelf Meyer, that these people should be killed.
	There was a list circulating amongst the  AWB which stated that Mr Hani and Bantu Holomisa and several others, their names were on this list and they also should be killed.
	I did not partake any further in this, but also today I want to get right down to the point, if it wasn't for the fact that Botha and De Klerk was well guarded, me, myself would have executed them, or some of the other members, but we couldn't get close to them.  There were definitely decisions taken that certain people had to be killed.