Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: Do you think that had you told Mr M.Z. Khumalo afterwards that you had made a bonus, Mr Yamile had given you some extra money, he would have been annoyed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, he would not.

MR HEWIT: Do you think he would have had something to say about it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that would be up to him, I cannot answer to that.

MR HEWIT: But we know that you never told anybody about this?  You never told Mr Khumalo about it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not.

MR HEWIT: All right, you told us that you have received many presents and lots of other presents and gifts for work you had done?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No wait, I am answering on the question of Zazi Khuzwayo, let us just concentrate on Zazi Khuzwayo.

MR HEWIT: No, you will not tell me what questions I can ask you.  I am asking you now to deal with what you have just said in answer to dealing with Zazi Khuzwayo, that you received lots of other presents and gifts during the course of your duties, is that correct, do you confirm that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Well, I would like to know now about these presents and gifts.  Let us start off, which other person, name all the persons that gave you presents and gifts for us please?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I cannot enumerate them all.  I cannot enumerate also the kind of gifts that I received.

MR HEWIT: Can you tell us of some of them, what was the nature of these presents and from what category or what persons gave them to you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Like Prince Gideon for example, he gave me an animal skin.  He said to me Mhlanduna, here is a skin.  Such kinds of gifts.

UNKNOWN: Was that gift, may I interpose Mr Hewit, may I interpose?  Was that kind of a gift given to you by Prince Gideon Zulu given to you as a result of one of your successful operations that you had committed on his behalf?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say we are neighbours.  Now, it was just a present that was not associated with any work well done, but as a person that he knew within Inkatha and a person whom he knew that was working hard for the organisation.  A person whom he liked.  He saw it fit to give me a present.

UNKNOWN: I am still not clear whether you had understood the ambit of my question.  What I wanted to know was whether the gift that you were given by him, was as a result of an operation that you had conducted either on his behalf or on behalf of Inkatha, even if it was not at his own instance?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say he was just giving me a gift to appreciate and thank me for working so hard for Inkatha.

UNKNOWN: In your capacity as the Commander of the para military wing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Well, we won't worry too much about an animal skin, but let's hear about something a bit more attractive than an animal skin.  Name some other person for us who gave you a reward or gift?

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Hewit, if you can make it clear, we are not really interested in what he might have got for Christmas or a birthday present, it is as a result of performing ...

MR HEWIT: Yes, obviously we are not interested in friends' gifts that are normally exchanged at times like Mr Chairman has mentioned, Christmas, birthdays, that sort of thing.  We are talking about special recognition for outstanding work done for which you claim you have certain skills, killing people.  Tell us about gifts and presents and money that you received over and above your salary for killing other people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I do not remember.

MR HEWIT: Is that because there were so many occasions where you received money or gifts for killing people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MR HEWIT: How many occasions would there have been when you received a gift or money for killing someone, while in the employ of the KwaZulu government or Inkatha as you say?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you say was it dozens, scores, hundreds, one or two?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that a gift that is not associated with being requested to go do something, then I would give you this, that is something that has never happened.
	But if you meet a dignitary, maybe at a rally, and maybe he gives you R2-00 for cold drink, I wouldn't remember such incidents.  Or maybe let's go and eat dinner at a certain hotel, I wouldn't remember all of it.  But it used to happen which show that the authorities knew that I was around and they appreciated me.  I can put it like that.

MR HEWIT: Are you suggesting now that when I started asking you why you took  a couple of hundred rands from Yamile for the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo and you then answered so what, I have received lots, many gifts from other people, are you suggesting that when you made that comment, that you were referring to innoxious incidents, like someone buying you a cold drink?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't know how to respond to your question, because I have already mentioned that there are gifts that you receive and you don't really put them into your mind.  It is just like that.

MR HEWIT: You see, I clearly understood your answer to be that the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo was not the only time I received payment in the form of gift or money from a grateful person for a murder, but there were other occasions when I received money or gifts from a grateful person for committing a murder.  Isn't that what you were trying to convey to this Committee?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not what I am saying.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that all you were trying to convey is that you have during your life time, received gifts in the form of someone buying you a cold drink or a gift at Christmas, something innoxious like that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me make an example about the President of the IFP.  I would sometimes maybe receive a tie as a present, sometimes it would be a scarf.  Those are things that I do not really count as associated with the killing of people.
	It is things like those, there could be more gifts that he gave to me that I do not remember now.  But he used to give me gifts.

MR HEWIT: Well, let me ask you this directly, have you ever received money from someone, over and above your salary for killing someone?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that the only occasion that this ever happened, was when Yamile gave it to you for the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: So there have been other occasions then where you received money over and above your salary, for the murder of other persons, other than Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Well, I am afraid those two answers cannot stand together, because they both contradict each other.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As I have said earlier on, that you are associating two different things.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, sorry Mr Hewit, if I can just intervene here.  Perhaps you can clear it up with the witness, but the witness is saying that when you say have you received any money for killing, he might be interpreting that as a prior agreement, you go and kill X and I am going to give you R1 000-00, he is saying that that didn't happen, that he received money from Yamile when Yamile was acting in excitement after the event, and it wasn't a prior agreement.
	I think that might be what is causing the confusion here.