Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before we commence, I just want to put certain things on record.  Inasfar as victims are concerned, the victims are present, though not all of them, but they are aware, they are seated right in front here.  Mr Chairman, in the last hearing wherein this matter was postponed, that was on the 25th of August 97, the postponement was due to, amongst others, the following reasons and I am going to tell the Committee as to what has happened in the meantime.  There was a victim, a Mr Cassandra, who was deployed to South Africa by the United Nations to act in the peace mission.  Mr Cassandra was not before the Committee then in August and Prof Louis de Koker who is here in, with us indicated that Cassandra would like to attend the hearings and, at that moment, Mr Cassandra was not in South Africa, but he was in Angola.  The matter was postponed in order to secure his presence.
	What has happened so far, Mr Chairman, is that I got in touch with the Angola Mission in Pretoria about the whereabouts of Mr Cassandra, especially when I was arranging this particular hearing days, and when I phoned the office in Pretoria that very same morning I was told that he was around in Pretoria and I immediately issued a fax to him and made him aware of the hearing days and wanted him to confirm.  He did not come back to me, but later on a person at the Angola Mission in Pretoria contacted me that he did receive the fax, but, unfortunately, he has left for Angola once more and this person, a Mr Joseph, informed me that all my correspondence has been forwarded to the United Nations, because it is them who must decide whether Mr Cassandra should attend or not.  I have a fax from him to that effect, if the Committee would like to see that fax.
	Then later I wrote him a letter again to find out what is the position now and he told me that he was still awaiting the response from the United National Legal Department.  On the 20th of this month the gentleman in charge of the Mission in Pretoria telephoned me and told me that he has now a response from the United Nations about Mr Cassandra.  One, to sum it up, he read a document to me and he said he cannot forward the document to me, because it is for them and it is confidential from the United Nations, but the effect thereof is to the effect that Mr Cassandra is not allowed to attend this type of a hearing by the United Nations Legal Department.  Number two, that if there is any information that we want from Mr Cassandra, we must put that in the form of questions to him, to Mr Cassandra, but via the United Nations, but he will not attend.  
	Number two, yes, that is all, and this I conveyed it back to him to confirm or telephonic conversation I have a fax to that effect and I requested him to telephone Prof de Koker and make him aware of the contents of the letter as he was the person who had made mention of Mr Cassandra and made, actually made the Committee aware of his whereabouts.  That was done, that was confirmed to me by Mr, by Prof de Koker that the information was also conveyed to him.  Now, that closes the chapter in as far as Mr Cassandra is concerned.
	Another reason why the matter was postponed was that Prof Louis de Koker stated to the Committee that Walter Smiles, one of the applicants, had in 1993, if my memory is my good servant, made a statement and this statement was given to the now Premier of Mpumalanga, Mr Mathews Phosa, and he, Prof de Koker, has been in contact with Mr Mathews Phosa for that statement, but he has been unsuccessful.  He did make available to me all the correspondence between him and Mr Mathews Phosa and the Committee requested that I must look into the matter and see if I cannot get the information from Mr Mathews Phosa.  I did so, I contacted the Premier, Mr Mathews Phosa, and I spoke to him telephonically and he promised to respond to me in writing, which thing he did.  He faxed a letter, a copy of which I do have if the Committee would like to see, and in the letter, the contents, it is simply that, indeed, it is true.  The applicant, Mr Walter Smiles, did make a statement indicating that he was the person responsible for the throwing of the hand grenade and Mr Phosa then, representing the ANC Legal Department, contacted General van der Merwe about this and General van der Merwe referred him to talk to General le Roux and Mr Mathews then got in touch with General le Roux on the matter and he gave the statement over to the, but he was told that what he is saying and what Walter Smiles is saying is not correct, he is not the person who threw the hand grenade.  The people who have thrown the hand grenade are the people the police have arrested.  So, the matter was thrown out like that.  I did communicate that ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when was that statement allegedly made, yes, when?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is alleged that it was, sorry, it was made around 1993, around 1993.  I then conveyed this information to Prof de Koker and I tried to get in touch with General van der Merwe about this particular statement.  In so doing, I got in touch with the, our Investigative Unit in Johannesburg and requested them to get in touch with Mr, with General van der Merwe via his attorney, Mr Jan Wagener.  I have a response from the Investigative Unit, in writing, that they did get in touch with General van der Merwe and he cannot, he does not have a recollection about this document which was handed to him.  He is not sure whether this happened or not, but he will, all the same, check with head office and revert.  Nobody has referred it to me up till this moment.  That is ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: The document, the statement was not handed to him, it was handed to General le Roux.  Was it not so?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, (...indistinct).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Sorry.  He was referred to General le Roux and he did get in touch with General le Roux and mention is not made here whether the statement was given to General le Roux by Mathews Phosa, but mention is made that Mathews Phosa was in touch with General le Roux after he was in touch with General van der Merwe.  So, I thought, perhaps, General van der Merwe would have information about it.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, the reason I, because I have written down what you told us and you said Mr Phosa spoke to General le Roux and handed the statement to him and then Judge Ngoepe asked when was that and you said 1993.  So, in fact, the statement was not handed to le Roux.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If that is what I said, it is not what is referred to in the document, but the impression is that Mr Mathews Phosa after talking to General van der Merwe, got in touch with General le Roux, but his document does not say whether he did give the statement to General le Roux or not.  That is why I directed the Investigative Unit to get in touch with General van der Merwe, who was involved at the initial stages, and the response from the Investigative Unit is that he does not have a recollection thereof.  So, we could not get that statement that was made, apparently, around 1993.
	These were the reasons for the postponement of this matter, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, I am speaking under correction.  If Mr de Koker would want to confirm, he can do so or.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mpshe, the, I understand certain two people have been convicted in relation to this incident.  Now, this statement, was it made before that conviction or thereafter?

MR VISSER: It was made before, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: During the investigations?