Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: Okay. In any case Mr Coetzee, but so by the time, on any version, mine or yours, by october 1996 you knew when Peter Mbusi had died because you had seen the documentation?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Then I want to hear your explanation again as to this, how you could believe that what you were saying at page 103 in the second paragraph was true?

DIRK COETZEE: What I was reading on record Mr Chairman?

MR BOOYENS: Yes Mr Coetzee, page 103 in the second paragraph.

DIRK COETZEE: Well as I say I admit to it being a slip.

MR BOOYENS: No now it's a slip again but earlier on you told me here that you honestly believed that that was true.  But by then you had the Peter Mbusi details already, because you got it from the Lothar Neethling trial.

DIRK COETZEE: I am not with you Mr - I am not with Mr Booyens Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Please Mr Coetzee.  You said that you prepared, you got the dates right when you prepared and you had the Lothar Neethling trial details and so available to you.

DIRK COETZEE: For this trial Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  But by the time you made this statement those trials were something of the past, not so?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And so you had those details available earlier?

DIRK COETZEE: I had it available but it wasn't with me in the office at the time Mr Chairman....

MR BOOYENS: So you just took a running jump and you said that you told them that you told Nick van Rensburg that you had already murdered others, you really sucked this out of your thumb Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: No Mr Chairman I would have been without thumbs if I have done that, I can assure you of that.

MR BOOYENS: Yes you know that's a figurative way of speaking Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: No Mr Chairman in the Harms Commission also constantly I was referred to being "congruous stories that I suck out of my thumbs" and exactly the same statement that Mr Booyens made now, and all those "congruous statements" and stories, three-quarters of it came out to be the truth today or over the past week.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee I don't know what's the problem with you.  I am talking about paragraph 2 on page 103.

DIRK COETZEE: I have explained to the Commission, to you Mr Chairman, I can take it no further.

MR BOOYENS: No, but I have said to you now that I have got difficulty with your explanation because you could never have thought this anymore by 1996.

MR JANSEN: Well Mr Chairman the witness has now said that he sticks with his previous answer.  The rest will be for argument I would imagine Mr Chairman with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: ...take it any further.

MR BOOYENS: Except for one thing.  The witness has given a certain explanation as to why he made this mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: You pointed out an important point as to how it comes about such a mistake could have been made.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When at that stage he already had the details.

MR BOOYENS: Fine, I think I'll leave it just at that.
	When was the date arranged, the Komatipoort date?

DIRK COETZEE: On the night that the Audi was stolen it was discussed and the date was later arranged by Mr van Rensburg himself in conjunction with Major Archie Flemington of Komatipoort. I was just informed to join them by Brigadier Schoon.

MR BOOYENS: When were you informed by Schoon to join them?

DIRK COETZEE: The day that I left or the day before, which I put at late October, beginning November Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee on your version the security police in the Eastern Cape would have had to hide this injured person for nearly three months, because they ostensibly booked him out and had all the release papers that we have seen here by early August.

DIRK COETZEE: That is exactly what happened Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So you say they have hidden this person for some or other reason perhaps believing that he had a brain injury for three months before they actually went so far to get him killed?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Didn't van Rensburg say to you when he discussed the matter with you in September that well this was already getting a problem because even on your version when you discussed it with van Rensburg they would have been hiding this person for a month?

DIRK COETZEE: Mr van Rensburg, as the Committee could see, is a calm, collective man,  who doesn't get excited at all.  He didn't give me an explanation on the need-to-know basis Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee I, sorry to interrupt you, but I think this may be more down to the point, you and Mr van Rensburg decided that this person should be killed?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: What was your motive in deciding that?

DIRK COETZEE: That he asked me to assist from Headquarters as they put it, with the infrastructures - I think they referred to the drops ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: No that's all right, but would you have agreed to murder anybody, any person?

DIRK COETZEE: No not at all Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Now why did you agree to murder this specific one, what was your motive and what motivated you in doing so?

DIRK COETZEE: Because Mr van Rensburg said that the man landed on his head outside a window after diving through the window and sustained some brain injuries which could have resulted in another Biko case Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So, what's the problem with that?  Other prisoners also were injured and why did you decide to kill this man because he landed on his head?

CHAIRPERSON: It's not why did you decide to kill him, why did you agree with the decision?

UNKNOWN: Ja.

DIRK COETZEE: That was part of my job from Headquarters Mr Chairman to assist where possible and if asked in the regions, with the agreement of my superior officer, Brigadier Schoon.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the work that Vlakplaas was doing at the time?

DIRK COETZEE: The in theory sleuth hound groups, roaming around bus stops, train stations and shebeens to look for infiltrated cadres of the ANC that came into the country, but on occasion I had to pick a team for some specific operation Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words was "elimination" one of the activities?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, with elimination amongst other things Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that known to van Rensburg?

DIRK COETZEE: Of course Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman I don't think I will be able to finish, but if I may ask just one more thing at this stage.  Mr Coetzee without going into detail and I am talking about political things, prior to this discussion which you had with van Rensburg which we know was in September of '81, when did you go to Vlakplaas?

DIRK COETZEE: In August 1980 Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Right.  Apart from the Griffiths Mxenge incident were there any other eliminations?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes Peter Mbusi was there Mr ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Uh-uh, in September when you discussed it with van Rensburg.

DIRK COETZEE: No except I can't say now out of the fist Mr Chairman, but I know of bomb blasts that I executed on request of Mr van Rensburg into Swaziland where people were killed just after the Secunda attack I think in July 1980.  I can't specifically remember.

MR BOOYENS: But that was before Vlakplaas.

DIRK COETZEE: I beg your pardon - that was at Middleburg, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Yes exactly, I am talking about Vlakplaas.

DIRK COETZEE: The official operations in Vlakplaas in earnest started in late August 1981 after the transfer of another eight white policemen to Vlakplaas to make up groups to assist in the regions Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So then in late August, so within a month you were discussing murders with - after you were established you were discussing murder with van Rensburg is that what you are saying?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.