Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, he hasn't said his information was that.  He said his order was that and that's why he understood the order to have been given.  So please, let's just be careful here otherwise we put words in his mouth.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Was it your instruction or your order - sorry, maybe you give an instruction in that way, what did you understand from your orders as to who were the patrons of that hotel, who were the people that frequented that hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't understand your question well, if you can clarify.  What are you trying to ask me?

UNKNOWN: Well I'm trying to ask you if you are able to tell us, did you believe that there were only security forces at that hotel or did you also understand that private people or citizens unarmed, unconnected with the security forces, could also possibly be at that hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That place was outside the town so to speak, members of the security frequented the place that is why it was the target, that was the order.  As the commander of the unit you just had to plan how to go about attacking the place.  We went there with the knowledge that that was the place where security members went frequently.  I hope I've answered you.

UNKNOWN: So it wouldn't have made ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, I'm still not very clear on this.
	Were you able to verify that this place was frequented by military people?  We you able to verify that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It is a report that we received from comrade Nxeba, that as he went inside the hotel he discovered that the men that were inside there were carrying guns, most of them were carrying guns.  He did not specify and say what kind of guns but he said that most people that were there had weapons.

MS GCABASHE: Then the second leg to the same aspect is, did he say anything about ordinary civilians who may or may not be in the hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: He did say that there were people there, he did not say whether they were civilians or not.

MS GCABASHE: And the last aspect on the same issue is then people who worked there.  I know Mr Prior didn't talk about them specifically, what was your information on those people?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We did not receive any information on those, we were just focusing on people that frequented the hotel.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: But surely you must have also, as the commander of that unit, that operation, you must have also appreciated surely that also would have been civilian people unconnected to the security forces that might also be there, did you appreciate that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was a battle against the oppressors, they oppressed us socially, through the military and economically.  The question about civilians is difficult because according to APLA there was no distinction between civilians and the others because an oppressor was an oppressor according to APLA.

UNKNOWN: And he was an oppressor if he had a white skin, is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Sobukwe puts it this way: "Don't hate white people simply because they are white".  It is like you would beat me up with a sjambock, I can't say I hate the sjambock, I would rather say I hate you.  So that you stop using the sjambock I have to hit you or hit on you rather than the sjambock.  I hope you understand.

UNKNOWN: When you went to the hotel on that occasion when you fired shots, what steps did you take to make sure that you were hitting the right target, in other words that the people there were in fact members of the security forces.  What steps did you take if any?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, we were there to kill and destroy ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Who were there to kill?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We are there to kill and destroy the people that we would find there at that particular time.  You could not differentiate amongst the people that were there because you would also get injured.  We went to attack the people who were there at the time.  We did not assess the damage.

UNKNOWN: And what steps if any or precautions did you take to avoid injuring the staff, that is the non-white - if I can put it that way, members, the black members of staff at that hotel who were present on that evening?  Did you consider their safety at all?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I've already said, I did not know the people that worked there or what race they were.  We were not there to protect some and attack others.  The APLA battle was not specifically against white or black, it was against the oppressor.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you class the servants working in the kitchen there as oppressors?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I've already said people - I had no information on the people that worked there, whether they were black or white.  We went to attack black or white.  We were going to attack the black people if they were there as well.

MS GCABASHE: So you were really focused on the target, not on whether there were black or white people in the premises, is this what you're saying?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

UNKNOWN: I want to put to you ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Also - if I'm hearing you correctly, in essence you are saying: "We had our orders, our orders were to attack that place" and you are saying in essence it didn't matter who was there, you went there to attack that place, just to carry out your orders?  Is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That was selected because security members frequented the place.  Even the person who went to do the reconnaissance came back with the same report.  He did not identify the people that were there as civilians.   We just knew that security members frequented the place.  I would not know whether there were civilians there but I was given an order in a specific manner.

MR LAX: And you went there to carry out that order, that's what I asked you in the first place.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct, however to confirm the information that I received, the comrades that went inside to find out who was there came back with the same report that most of the people inside the hotel had weapons.  Therefore to me and to the unit there was no difference amongst the people.

MR LAX: If you had found that that place in fact had a whole lot of old grannies there that were not armed or anything, would you have carried on with the mission?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The order did not say anything about old people.  We did not choose the target place.

MR LAX: That's what I'm asking you, I'm trying to understand what would you have done if you had found that the place was full of old grannies?  Would you have reported back to your commanders and said: "Hang on we think you're making a mistake, this is not a security force place" or would you have simply carried out your orders?  Did you have the space to question your orders, that's what we're trying to understand, so please don't get all - try and understand what I'm asking you.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all Sir, the Secretary for Defence in 1993 for AZANIA's people for liberation declared 1993 as:  "The Year of the Great Storm".  If there were old people there or there were grannies there they would give specific reasons why the place must be attacked.  We left our parents to fight for this country, we chose to, we volunteered to be members of APLA.
	I need for you to have that clear in your mind.  We were not chased away from home, we left our homes voluntarily.  As members of APLA you do find that you are where you always wanted to be, to fight against the oppressor.

MR LAX: You haven't answered my question.