Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No no no, what normally happens is, if someone screamed and then I would leave my office, they will hear my footsteps and then obviously they will unplug everything and then I ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, but that is not what I am saying, did you see an electric, because these electric shock devices you've got to attach to parts of the body and it's got to be there.  It is a physical thing that can be seen.  What I am saying is: Did you ever see one there?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, I think I saw one, not on this case. Not on this case.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Didn't you at any given time make enquiries from your underlings as to the kinds of methods they are using, to obtain or extract information from the suspects as a commanding officer?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: The methods that they would tell me of would be really what I said now like the hood, but they wouldn't tell me about the shock thing and the like and then they will also tell me about you know, getting someone to stand on his head, you know, those things and maybe try and suffocate someone with a bag or a hood.  You know, those things.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Now why would they not tell you about the electric shocks.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I think they know I would not allow that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So it wasn't part of something that you would have condoned.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: If I had seen it I would obviously ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes ...

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: ...I would not have condoned it,

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana, were you ever compelled to intervene in the interrogation of those victims because you felt it was excessive?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I don't know I can't remember now, but I think somewhere I would say enough is enough, leave this man alone, something like that, something like that.

MS MTANGA: The victims Mr Ramushwana will put it to you that the confessions made by Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana were unlawfully obtained from them, because they were tortured and were not the truth, but were the version put to them by the police.  Would you dispute this in anyway?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I wouldn't dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is why you are applying for amnesty.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Meyer, any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER.: Just a few questions Mr Chairman.
	General, you were asked by my colleague Mr van Rensburg about bounds that you spoke about.  Am I correct in assuming that there were no sharply defined bounds, for instance that you would tell you subordinates you may only kick the detainees three times a day or something to that effect.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: True.

MR MEYER: So when you talk about bounds it is not about a sharply defined boundary that you placed on the interrogators.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: It is true.

MR MEYER: From the people that are listed in paragraph 15, do I understand you correctly that only one of them that you knew personally was number seven there Mr Ravele.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: The others you just knew about. Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I also knew like I said Dean Farisani.

MR MEYER: What was his position in the Lutheran Church?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: He was a dean there.

MR MEYER: Does that mean he was the head of the Lutheran Church in Venda.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: The people you were trying to bring or get before court eventually, were you only looking for the people who were physically involved in the physical attack of the police station as such, in other words, people who fired shots and fired rockets and those sort of things or were you also looking for people who was involved to the extent that they aided and abetted maybe the actual perpetrators?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: We were looking for all, perpetrators, those who assisted them, those who conveyed them, those who harboured them, all that.

MR MEYER: Just regard to your, to the written statements which you made, is it correct that they were signed on the 7th of January 1998?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: Is it correct also that since that date which is more than a year ago you've had a number of further consultations with your legal representatives and also discussed this matter with your colleagues and made sure that details came to light?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: Of the people who were arrested you've already testified that you only came aboard, if I can call it that, later than the actual investigation started.  Can you remember how many of the people that were arrested, were already arrested before you became the head of the investigation?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: That I can't remember really.

MR MEYER: You cannot tell us which exactly of the detainees had been arrested before you started heading the investigation?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Difficult to say really.

MR MEYER: Okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is there any evidence that he was part of the investigation prior to him assuming command?

MR MEYER: No, there's no, there's no such evidence.  I have nothing further, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any questions Judge Khampepe? Advocate Bosman?  Thank you General, that concludes your testimony.  You may stand down.  Mr Meyer?
WITNESS EXCUSED