Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't you have got information to say "Well look you know, these people are now establishing their covers, Mr van Zyl he's just formed a little company called Incom, or whatever it was called, and Mr Botha he's moving in this direction and we've given him money to start a little operation", didn't you get that sort of information?

EDWARD WEBB: Never names.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know Mr Lafras Luitingh?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wasn't he a member of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I only learnt that later, or the allegations that he was a member.  His name only came out later.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is he a professional soldier?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: According to the evidence before Mr Justice Els, we'll give a reference later, Mr Chairman, Barnard admitted to Lafras Luitingh, that he had murdered Webster, the day after, almost immediately afterwards.  Now if he was a member of the CCB, didn't he owe a duty to the CCB to report that?

EDWARD WEBB: Are you saying that something was reported to me?

GEORGE BIZOS: Whomever.

EDWARD WEBB: But nothing was reported to me, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who would he have had to report to?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, I don't know where he fitted in.  If Lafras Luitingh was a member then he would have had to report to his superior.  I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was Ferdi Barnard's handler in the CCB.  Would you not have known about that?

EDWARD WEBB: I didn't know those people, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: We have evidence that Mr Barnard was either suspended or put on ice, insofar as there may be a difference, for breach of discipline.  Would that not have been a matter which would have had to be reported to you by Mr Verster?

EDWARD WEBB: No, that's something which only came out much later.

MR LAX: That wasn't the question, the question was, wasn't that kind of thing the sort of thing which should have been reported to you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, that wasn't necessary, you didn't know the people who worked on operator level.  If he committed some wrong down the way and the CCB wasn't threatened as such, there would be no reason to report to me ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Except that he might be getting a salary for doing nothing.   I mean it might have had a financial implication.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, but Mr Verster could appoint people without me making a contribution or input into the matter.

GEORGE BIZOS: The fact that he was involved in internal assassinations, if your evidence is correct, threatened the very existence, the very reputation of the CCB and completely contrary to all orders and plans of the CCB.

EDWARD WEBB: When was Mr Barnard arrested?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, much later, we're talking about the time after, the day after when he admitted to a member of the CCB that he had done it.  That's the relevant time that we are talking about.

EDWARD WEBB: I made enquiries in that time or just after, after the General had approached me and the answer was "No, we're not involved."

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you want to know who the suspect was?  You know when the Head of Security - the Head of Detective Services comes along and says "Did you have anything to do with this?", you must take the enquiry seriously.

EDWARD WEBB: It was taken seriously.

GEORGE BIZOS: And how did you take this enquiry seriously?  What did you do?

EDWARD WEBB: Well I immediately knew that Special Forces couldn't have been involved, so I went to the CCB and said "Men, please Joe, find out what's going on, are we involved, yes or no", and he came back to me and he said "No."

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask the Head of the Detective Services "Who is the suspect"?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

MR LAX: Can I just ask a question.  Why did you immediately know Special Forces wasn't involved?

EDWARD WEBB: Because they were direct at operations outside the country.

MR LAX: But they weren't always directed at operations outside the country, we've already heard about the Ribeiros, we've heard about other things.  So how could you be so sure?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, but the Ribeiros were CCB.

MR LAX: And there were some Special Forces people there as well.  We know that.

EDWARD WEBB: Ja, it could have been a combination.

MR LAX: So I mean the fact of the matter is that you couldn't be sure and if you didn't know who the operative was, who the prime suspect might be.  You see, earlier I was interrupted when I wanted to ask you this question.  When this General comes to you, or this Head of Investigations, this chap Joubert comes to you, doesn't he say to you "Hey, we've got a problem here, are any of your people involved"?  Surely you discuss it confidentially as two members of the Security Forces, that's why he comes to you.  He doesn't go and arrest your man first and then send an instruction through you.

EDWARD WEBB: No, I don't think you should think in terms of us trying to discuss something, the General was higher in rank than myself, so we weren't on an equal level and he directed an enquiry at me "Were you involved or not?"  And I don't know whether he as the Head of the Detective Branch perhaps had any knowledge of Ribeiro or not.  He just asked me "Are your people involved, yes or no?"  And that's when I made the enquiry.  It wasn't a discussion between people of equal rank, he was of a higher rank than myself.

MR LAX: The point I'm trying to get to is, he wouldn't have just said to you "Are your people involved", you could have asked you that over the phone.  He wouldn't have called you to his office to say that, he would have had a discussion with you, he would have tried to explain the context, how important it was.

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, I don't think any detail was discussed, for me the important thing was that he directed an enquiry at me.  Perhaps he wanted to look me in the eye when he asked me this, perhaps he didn't want to mention it on the phone.  He summoned me to his office and I went.

MR LAX: Besides Verster, who else did you ask about it?

EDWARD WEBB: Only Verster.

MR LAX: Why didn't you ask your other intelligence channels whether they knew?  You had a whole intelligence system at your disposal.

EDWARD WEBB: After Dr Webster had been shot, the next day everything was in the papers, if other information had come through it would have gone through the normal channels and I specifically had to enquire from us, from the CCB.

MR LAX: You see the whole important reason here is not so much that these people are being paid money by you and they're not doing their jobs properly, but it's the whole - suddenly I can only think in Afrikaans, "die ontbloting" of this entire operation.  That's the crucial issue.  If I was in your shoes, that's what I would be really worried about.

EDWARD WEBB: To expose us?

MR LAX: Yes.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, but by making enquiries about Webster, we're not disclosing anything.

MR LAX: Here the police are asking you, "Are your people involved?"  How does he even know about the CCB?  Here's a General in the Police, how does he even know about the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know whether he knew about the CCB, he didn't say CCB, he said to me Special Forces, as I testified just now.

MR LAX: Yes, but how would he even know Special Forces were involved internally?

EDWARD WEBB: As I said, perhaps he as Head of the Detective Branch knew about previous incidents like the Ribeiro incident, I don't know.  I didn't question him, I ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Precisely, precisely, but in your mind the issue would then have been this, "Good gracious, what does this man know that I don't know?  How much does he know that I've got to be worried about?"  And then surely you'd go to your own sources, besides Verster.

EDWARD WEBB: Perhaps it flashed through my mind, but I simply directed the enquiry to Verster, nothing further.

MR LAX: So you clearly weren't that concerned.