Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

CHAIRPERSON: You had a group who on one occasion were joined by Oupa, one occasion by Temba Ngese and one occasion by Max.  Otherwise it was the same group and Jabo was a member of it three times.

MR LAX: The Judge had expressed the point exactly that I am trying to make to.  Please explain this to us.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Jabo joined our group only twice.

MR LAX: Do I understand from your answer that you now remembered who Jabo was?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May I please explain in which attacks did Jabo take part.

MR LAX: Answer the first question, do you now remember who Jabo was?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The Jabo I was with in this attacks is the one I am talking about.

MR LAX: Yes, so your answer is yes, you do remember him now.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I only remember the Jabo I worked with.

MR LAX: What other names did this Jabo use?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I only know him as Jabo, and the other name is Dr Zamzam.

ADV SANDI: When was the last time you saw Jabo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I last saw Jabo in 1994.

ADV SANDI: Where was that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It was in Umtata.

ADV SANDI: What was happening in Umtata when you saw him?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We were in a political class when I last saw him, and I last saw him after the political class finished.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I have difficulty.  You've now told us, you remember you were in political class with him 1994, he was also know as Dr Zamzam, he joined your group twice for attack.  Why did you tell me when I first asked you that you didn't remember who Jabo is?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I was talking about the Jabo who was in the unit, but what I was explaining also was that other Comrades were using this name Jabo as a nickname or chimerengan name, but the Jabo I was with at the unit is the very same Dr Zamzam I am talking about.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one thing, Mr Prior.  You mentioned to us earlier that you were involved in other operations outside of those training operations.  What operations were those?  Before this operation that we are dealing with today.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is that at Mayaputi bridge and the attack on Zastron farmers and the Sterkspruit Hotel attack.  Mayaputi bridge in Zastron.

MR PRIOR: So it was Mayaputi Bridge in Zastron, then you said it's farm attacks.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Zastron farm attack.

MR PRIOR: Any others?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes.  Sterkspruit Hotel attack.

MR PRIOR: Before this we are dealing with today?  The question was what attacks were you involved in before this one that we are dealing with today?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I remember is that the Mayaputi bridge attack happened before the one we are talking about.  It together with the Zastron farmer attack happened before the attack we are talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't remember whether the other attacks came after or before the one we are talking about, but all I remembered is that they happened in one year.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do remember those two before, the Mayaputi bridge and the Zastron farm attack?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And Kenny participated in both of them?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he participated in both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the leader in both of them?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: May I proceed, Mr Chairman?  If the Committee will bear with me and maybe correct me, my understanding yesterday was after this particular attack on the roadway at, near Herschel, you group then because you required funds or money or food, you went to the Sterkspruit Hotel.  In other words that was the next operation.  Am I correct in understanding that, Mr Chairman?  It was actually put to Mr Dolo that he had robbed at R55 000 on that occasion.  My understanding is that that happened after this particular attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't remember such a question being put to Mr Dolo yesterday.  There was no such question.

MR PRIOR: I agree, Mr Mbandazayo, but ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Prior, you might rephrase it into a slightly different way in terms of the fact that the papers in the bundles indicate that to be the case.  And that's where we have that impression form.

MR PRIOR: That's why I asked whether I was correct in understanding that there was evidence like that.

ADV SANDI: I think the witness has already replied to your question, and I did not get any interpretation coming through.  Maybe you can put the question to him?

MR PRIOR: Maybe the Interpreter can just repeat the answer.

INTERPRETER: He just says "yes"  He said yes, they went there because they didn't have money.

MR PRIOR: You said after the attack on the road, the Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road near Herschel, I'm just trying to understand the sequence, ...(intervention)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't remember whether it happened before or after, because these things happened quite a long time ago.

MR PRIOR: Certainly the sequence given in a confession that was put up at page 39 of the bundle, and I'm not, I don't intend to go into, I'm just trying to get the sequence.  At page 39 you indicated the attack on the vehicles and you give quite a lot of detail.

MR LAX: Is that 39 of bundle "B", Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Of bundle "B", yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: That's the typed transcript.  Then after that you say "we left the vehicle in town.  We went home.  We then heard on the news that a white person had died in hospital and the black person had died."  Then you said Phila said "we are hungry and we needed money.  Then he sent us to Sterkspruit Hotel, Moleko Hotel.  Dit was ek Kenny, Jabo en Temba - it was me, Jabo, Kenny and Temba."  What I'm simply putting to you, it would seem that if the Sterkspruit Hotel occurred very soon after this attack, it seems that Jabo was part of your unit on that occasion and you mention his name in your amnesty application, as you did in the Lady Grey ambush.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he was a member of our unit.

MR PRIOR: I remember that he went with you to ambush that Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, he wasn't with us.

MR PRIOR: You stayed at Jozanna's Hoek for some months before this attack, is that correct?  This Herschel Lady Grey attack.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Who was the owner of that house?  Do you know?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't know his name because when he got there he only used to meet with our Commander, not us.  He never even spoke to us.  That is why we don't even, I don't even know his name.

MR PRIOR: Do you know someone by the name of Dikotsi?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Who is Dikotsi?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Dikotsi was the Free State Regional Chairman of the PAC.

MR PRIOR: Did he send you to Jozanna's Hoek?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Who is Bele-Bele? Mbele-Mbele?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Mbele-Mbele is an African whom I met at Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Is he also a member of PAC/APLA?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He is a member of the PAC.

MR PRIOR: Do you know him by any other name?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he take you to his house at Jozanna's Neck where you stayed for three days?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He didn't take us to Jozanna's Hoek.  He took us to Jozanna's Neck.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) not Jozanna's Hoek.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so, he took us to Jozanna's Neck.

MR PRIOR: Who was Ben?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Ben was one of our Comrades who used to drive for us.

MR PRIOR: Was he part of your unit at the time of this ambush at Herschel, near Herschel?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did he join afterwards, or before, or what?  Did he leave your unit before this attack in November 1992?