Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR NGUBANE: Well, I know that you knew that she had a child, but you say that she mentioned that.  All that I want to know is was it in Maritzburg or at the border when she mentioned it?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember.

MR NGUBANE: Under what circumstances did she mentioned to you that she had a baby?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember it Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Was she crying?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She never cried in my presence.

MR NGUBANE: Did she say that she had a baby and she was longing for the baby?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, during that time she mentioned to me that she had a child.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, did she say she was longing for the child?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Did she plead with you not to kill her because she had a small baby?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Was there any stage before she could be killed, when you gained the impression that she was aware that she was going to be killed?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: When you blindfolded her, did she cry, scream?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Was she talking when you blindfolded her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Did she complain and say why are you blindfolding me?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, we gave an explanation why we were blindfolding her.

MR NGUBANE: And she was happy with your explanation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct yes.

MR NGUBANE: What explanation did you give her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot hear, can you repeat please.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not hear that last question.

MR NGUBANE: The question was what explanation did you give and the answer was that he can't remember.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer was he did not hear you.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  All right, you have heard the question, can you give me an answer?

MR VISSER: Can I just know what the question is, because I am confused.

MR NGUBANE: When you blindfolded her, you said that you gave her an explanation why you were blindfolding her, and my question was what explanation was that.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We told her that we are going to take her to another place, or transfer her to another place.

MR NGUBANE: And she was happy about that, as far as you could, did she ask you what place it was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  No, she didn't ask any questions.  She accepted it like that.

MR NGUBANE: And when you transferred her, before you could shoot her, did anyone tell you to shoot?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: When the order was given to shoot her, was it given at the house or at the spot when she was actually shot?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I have already testified that Colonel Taylor told us that we must eliminate Ndwandwe, he did not give any prescriptions on how to do it.

MR NGUBANE: Was it at the house or at the spot where the shooting took place?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: At the house.

MR NGUBANE: And was it in the presence of Ndwandwe?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Negative.

MR NGUBANE: Let's turn to the incident of Nxiweni.  You say that he was involved in the Ramlakan case, is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And some of the people that were arrested in connection with that case, they were promised that they would be made State witnesses, they made statements in terms of Section 29, is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Were those people that made statements in terms of Section 29, Umkhonto We Sizwe people?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And did you influence them by assaulting them, so that they could make these statements?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Did you attempt to influence Nxiweni to turn into a State witness?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Why not?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I didn't work with him.

MR NGUBANE: Well, how did you know that there was no attempt to turn him into a State witness, do you know?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Could you please repeat the question.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know whether there was an attempt to turn him into a State witness, if I may make myself clearer?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I wasn't aware of any such attempt.

MR NGUBANE: But your investigations, was it not the plan to make the case as strong as possible against the main actors, Ramlakan and Duduzile?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I was one of the interrogators and I questioned one of the persons, by name of Robert Mlanzi.  I was not in control of those that Mr Taylor had to do with.

MR NGUBANE: But you accept it as a fact that Mr Nxiweni did not offer to be a State witness, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: As he said, he said he doesn't know.  He doesn't know if an attempt was made to get him.  The first question you asked him was if he did it, and he said no.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, if I may just put it the other way.  Do you accept it as a fact that according to your knowledge, no Section statement that you are aware of, was taken from Mr Nxiweni?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I am not aware of that.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know how much time they spent in prison before the trial could be heard?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I suspect approximately one year.

MR NGUBANE: Do you agree with me that if there was an attempt to make him a State witness, a period of one year could have been enough inducement for him to turn into a State witness?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot comment on that.

MR NGUBANE: And when he was arrested, just immediately before he could be killed, that is the second arrest now, were you present when he was interrogated for the first time?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Did you meet him on the very first day that he was arrested?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: For the second time?

MR NGUBANE: Yes?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: For the second time, yes.

MR NGUBANE: And approximately when did you come into contact with him?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: When he was arrested?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, that is for the second time now, that is the second incident, forget about the Ramlakan incident.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was in the late afternoon that he was arrested.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, well when you came into contact with him, approximately at what hour?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Late afternoon, 6 o'clock approximately.

MR NGUBANE: Were you involved in the immediate interrogation of him?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I was.

MR NGUBANE: From 6 o'clock until when?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was from 6 o'clock until late at night.

MR NGUBANE: All right.  Did he give you information during that period?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, he gave us information.

MR NGUBANE: That is after you had assaulted him as you have indicated?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: The following day, did you also participate in his interrogation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I did.

MR NGUBANE: Did you assault him on the following day again?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that he was assaulted on the following day as well.

MR NGUBANE: But did he give you information on the following day?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, he did.  He did provide information.