Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: : What you did in fact Senator was to deceivethe Court to avoid your own guilt, don't tell me about the circumstances,talk about this case.   You were facing a charge and you deceivedthe Court into believing you did not know the murder was to takeplace, is that correct Senator?

ANSWER: Chairperson, I'm going to repeat this.   Thecircumstances in which we found ourselves forced us to make thiskind of statement.   We did not trust the South African courts,we were not free to speak the truth, that's why we had to makethis kind of statement.

JUDGE WILSON: : ...you did not tell the Court the truth,you are admitting that on oath now Senator?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct, yes I lied because I didnot trust the courts.

JUDGE WILSON: : I suggest to you Senator that you liedto avoid conviction, that you put the blame onto Roland.  CanI have that statement back please?   What have you got to sayabout that, your statement helped to convict him didn't it?

ANSWER: No I don't think my statement helped to convictRoland.

JUDGE WILSON: : He pleaded not guilty and you in your statementsaid that he admitted committing the murder.

ANSWER: I say that I simply don't believe that my statementcontributed to Roland's conviction.

JUDGE WILSON: : I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON
QUESTIONS BY CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bloem what position did you hold withinthe ANC at the time?

ANSWER: As I said I was the Deputy Chairperson of thebranch at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: You made reference to protest marches andboycotts that had been organised by the ANC at the time. Whichprotest marches and boycotts were interfered with or broken bymembers of the Three Million gang, do you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these protest marches of any politicalsignificance to the ANC?

ANSWER: Yes, you see there was a Civic Association andthe ANC was there and we organised these protest actions and marchesjointly.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they meant to be peaceful protests?

ANSWER: Yes peaceful at all times, that was our intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they viewed as some of the methodsby the ANC to achieve through peaceful means, some political objectives?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The interference of these protest marchesand boycotts by the Three Million gang did they have the effectof frustrating those methods and tactics of the ANC.

ANSWER: Yes most definitely, it certainly frustratedthe community and the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you made, you and some otherleaders, made representations to some authorities when violencewas striking the area.   Can you tell us a little bit more whatexactly, what you did?

ANSWER: Yes Chairperson, I and Reverend Gozongo approachedthe Minister of Law and Order, Adriaan Vlok, and we asked himto intervene in this conflict and violent situation in Kroonstadbut it was useless.   Myself and Mr Breytenbach, the Deputy Ministerof Defence, we sent a delegation from Maokeng to have a meetingwith Mr Breytenbach - he was stationed in Kroonstad.   We spoketo him, the community leaders, the taxi people, business people,teachers, everybody, everybody involved in Kroonstad communityattended this meeting and held a meeting with Mr Breytenbach,but nothing helped.   The Premier, (indistinct) Lekotha contactedand liaised with the police at a very high level and had variousmeetings but to no avail.   He was not the Premier then, he wasn't.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY CHAIRPERSON
QUESTIONS BY ?

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he one of the leaders of the ANC?

ANSWER: Yes let me just explain.   Mr Lekotha comes fromKroonstad, his mother lives here in Kroonstad and he was raisedhere.   He is a community leader of Kroonstad to this day.
QUESTIONS BY ANOTHER MEMBER OF COMMITTEE

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Bloem, the deceased Mr Diwiti came to youon more than one occasion and asked you that there must be peace?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : On the first occasion he actually came to youof his own accord?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : At the talks, the peace talks his life wasthreatened?

ANSWER: Yes correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : So that you had to remove him from the scene?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : At your house his life was once again in danger?

ANSWER: Correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : His life was once again under threat by theANC Youth League?

ANSWER: I wouldn't say it's the ANC Youth League becausethe Youth League would never have done that to me, the SDU...

<UNKNOWN>: : The SDU members?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : The Chairperson of the SDU was also the Chairpersonof the ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : So Mr Diwiti's attempts to pursue peace cameto nought?

ANSWER: Yes I think I must just answer this quite carefully.  Mr Diwiti, George, came to me twice so that we could have peacediscussions and talks and on two occasions there were, came tonothing.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were the two of you friends?

ANSWER: Please repeat the question.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you and him friends or did he only approachyou in his capacity as a leader?

ANSWER: After Mr Diwiti was released from prison, hewas detained for some offence, I met him in 1989.

<UNKNOWN>: : You were aware that for his part there wasa desire for peace?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes on that day you went with on that day youknew he was going to be killed?

ANSWER: No not at all, I did not take Diwiti to be killed,I went along so that we could talk so that we could solve thisproblem.

<UNKNOWN>: : I think there is a bit of confusion here, we'renot talking about the same incident.   You travelled along withPetrus in the car knowing full well that Petrus was planning tokill Diwiti.

ANSWER: Yes as I said in my explanation I pleaded withPetrus to try and persuade him not to do this but he refused andhe went ahead.

<UNKNOWN>: : You didn't think that perhaps you should goalong with Petrus to try and find Diwiti and make peace again?

ANSWER: You see at that stage my life was also in danger.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why, how so?

ANSWER: I was under threat from the Three Million gang.

<UNKNOWN>: : So you couldn't appear freely in the streets?

ANSWER: Yes for about a year I did not go to town, Icould not put my foot there because the whole town belonged tothem.

<UNKNOWN>: : Apart now from the threats directed at theANC members, were they a band of criminals who committed othercrimes as well or did they concentrate on political violence?

ANSWER: You see previously before the police got a strangleholdon this gang, these people were common township gangsters, itwas a township gang.

<UNKNOWN>: : The day when the Premier Milling people cameto arrest them do you think such an arrest would have taken placewithout any bloodshed?

ANSWER: You see the Premier Milling Company employeeshad done so in the past, I think it was in 1986 or 87, the PremierMilling people, the workers had arrested some of the Three Milliongang members and taken them to the charge office at (indistinct).

<UNKNOWN>: : So the Three Million gang had existed for quitea long time here, not only from 1986 onwards?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm repeating myself now, do you think thearrest on that particular day, in the light of the circumstancesat the time, do you think that arrest could have taken place withoutbloodshed?

ANSWER: The Premier Milling group notified the policethat they were on their way and the police were present, that'swhy the Premier Milling group never thought that there would bebloodshed because the police were present to maintain law andorder.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes but now here we see a private group comingto arrest another group and the police intervene and keep themapart?

ANSWER: Yes that is in fact what happened.