Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Those were very difficult circumstances which prevailed those years, there were no addresses, you could not walk there, whistles were blown when we entered.  We also thought that we had to get them out to another place, but this was not viable.  We tried it.

ADV MOTATA: What I mean is that following the askaris surreptitiously that you are not even noticed by the askaris where they are going, that you must identify the house and, at least, arrest some people there.  That is what I mean.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was very difficult.

ADV MOTATA: To follow askaris?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, walking around in these areas was very difficult.

ADV MOTATA: Now, on this particular day, the third of March 1986, you had anticipated that the mini-bus would be attacked, is it not?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And when the mini-bus went through, you had either to disperse or just move around, because the danger you had anticipated was no longer there?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Now, when these people came back you had to defend yourself, because the ambush you had laid or preplanned was no longer feasible.  Now you had to react to an attack to you?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Now, if you were reacting to a personal attack, how could you come here and say to us, no, I want amnesty for that attack which I was defending myself?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I have been told before, I played the role of an ajan provocateur. I brought people in, I let people, other people come in here with weapons, there were allegations that I had shot that person to death wrongly.  Nobody wants to say who is making the allegations. I decided that I want to put, place this on the table and ask, if possible, if it is necessary, if my colleague and I can receive amnesty or be granted amnesty for this.

ADV MOTATA: For somebody who attacked you and you defended yourself, you want amnesty for that, that is what you are saying?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, and there are people who say that we lured them from Pretoria, that we trained them here and we were said that we actually came to lure them here.  I did not know where I was standing and that is why I applied.

ADV MOTATA: Just to go back, in Annexure C, you are saying that at least you knew one where lived.  There is a house number you gave, NY21, if I am not mistaken.  Is that not an identifiable place?  I will give you the page, C, Annexure C.  It would be, my page is marked B1, B2, C1, it would be C3, at least, we see that there is somebody, just hold a second.  Yes, C, there will be three in brackets.  Yes, that would be the one.  If you look at three, the second sentence,
"He is living at NY21 presently.",
but there is a mark before that, but it will appear 21, Guguletu.  At least we know a house.  C3 on mine.  No, there would not be a date up there, Part Two.  Update will mean Part Two.  As you have the pages, just forget that, count the pages, one, two, three, four, the fifth page.  Ja.  Let me give you mine.  No, page three, page three you need, three in brackets, the second sentence.  
"Somebody is living at NY21."

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: NY121, Mr Chairman.

ADV MOTATA: "He is presently living at 21 or 121",
but, in any case, it is a number.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As far as I know the NY1, NY21 were the names of streets, it is not a specific house address.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just to follow on that one, Captain Bellingan, you know, I think the problem of addresses being absent in houses in Black townships was not something which was peculiar to the Western Cape.  In fact, it was a prevalent problem and people had deliberately erased addresses in their houses to prevent the security police from effecting arrests or to make things difficult for the police to identify the people's houses, the activists houses, but that did not stop the security police from effecting an arrest, because they had to employ other means, I mean, diagrams were drawn and street maps were used of certain places ... (intervention).

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I agree.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... and if you really wanted to address that problem, I think you could have done so.  It was not an insurmountable problem.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I agree, we had many addresses, I do not know which addresses, where people were apprehended, but I cannot remember ... (end of tape 2B) at which addresses, but I do agree with you.

ADV MOTATA: Just lastly, these, the deceased, the Guguletu 7, did you know any of them whether they committed crimes prior to the incident on the third of March 1986?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: According to my reports, I have mentioned in which hand grenades attacks, stone throwing, etcetera, they were involved.

ADV MOTATA: So, hence, it would have made sense to say, let us sweep them up?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It would have made sense, because if they shot at us it would have happened.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, I have got no further questions.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bellingan, I am sorry to be doing this, the R7 000,00 which was paid to the askaris, where was it paid?  Was it at Koeberg or at Vlakplaas?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As far as I know it was a process which took two to three weeks.  It would have been paid at Vlakplaas usually.  One of the members could have come to Cape Town, one of the Warrant Officers came here, it could have been like a month or a few weeks later on, we could have paid him at Koeberg.  There was no standard procedure.  The only thing we believed in was that he had to be taken as quickly as possible to a bank.  We had a bank account so that the money would not get lost.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I find that very intriguing that you had to quickly take them to the bank.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, what had happened at Koeberg is that they received their monies, it is about R700,00, and that evening they go to a bar and they come back just with their underwear on.  We were busy with the rehabilitation process.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what bank you made use of?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It would have been the bank preferred by the individual.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, if Mr Mbane says that payment was effected at Vlakplaas, you would agree with his version?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, if that was what he says, it is correct.  I cannot remember in each individual case where payment was made.  Responsible people would take their money and go to the bank themselves, but there are a few difficult customers when you had to take them to the bank.

SISI KHAMPEPE: They were not that responsible?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I was responsible Ma'am, Mr Chairman, oh, sorry.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am just saying this, because I seem to recall you saying yesterday that payment was effected at Koeberg.  That is not so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I think that was Mr Mbane.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay, okay, okay, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think that we can go on for the moment.  Two o' clock.  We will now adjourn till two o' clock.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise.  Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, have you got any questions arising from the Committee's questions?

MR BOOYENS: No, Mr Chairman, the only thing that remained behind was the viewing of the video.  It was not here when we came up earlier on and I, quite frankly, think the video is available, there is only the one issue as if to whether there were other people with blue jackets, it can be viewed.  I think it will be just a waste of time to start running around the video once again.  It is there, it is evidence before the Court.

CHAIRPERSON: If anybody wants to refer us to any aspect of it, they can do so.