Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: Good day to you all.  This is going to be our first sitting at this venue, wherein we are going to hear and consider applications of people who are convicted and are applying for various offences, which they allege they committed whilst they were members of the Self Defence Unit.
	The first application we are going to consider, is the application of Gladwell Selahle.  Before we commence, I want to introduce the panel that will be sitting this week.  On my right hand side, I have Adv Francis Bosman, on my left hand side, I have the Attorney of the Supreme Court, Mr Ilan Lax and my name is Sisi Khampepe, I am Chairing these proceedings.
	We would like to convey our apologies to you for having kept you waiting for so long.  As you are aware, we always have teething problems when we start our hearings, particularly because we have to rely on various role players, being able to enable our proceedings to start timeously.
	We up to now are still waiting for some of the applicants, that we were due to hear this morning, which still have to come from places like Boksburg and Leeukop prison.  They still haven't come.  We have now decided to proceed with the application of Mr Gladwell Selahle, to try and make up for the lost time that we have already suffered this morning.  
	We would like to extend our appreciation to Mr Mohlaba who is representing the applicants who have yet to be brought here by Correctional Services, thank you very much Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Lady Chair, the applicant Mr Selahle, wishes to testify in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selahle, are you going to take an oath?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, that is correct.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Mr Selahle, were you born at Boksburg during 1972, on the 9th of July, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: You are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty in respect of a murder offence where Joseph Mkhabela was killed  on the 16th of March 1994, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Is it correct that you were arrested, tried and convicted of this offence and other offences which include robbery, unlawful possession of a firearm and unlawful possession of ammunition, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't he convicted of theft?

MR MOHLABA: Yes, it would appear Mr Selahle, that you were also convicted of theft of R50-00 as opposed to robbery, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: You are however applying amnesty in respect of an offence of murder only, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: And the basis on which you are applying for amnesty is that this offence or murder was committed by yourself while furthering the aims or the objectives of a political organisation, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Did you during the period of March 1994, belong to any political organisation?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Can you tell the Committee the name of the organisation?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I was a member of the ANC Youth League and a member of the Self Defence Unit.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain fully with clear details, how you joined the SDU's, how you were recruited in if ever you were recruited and the roles which you played?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I was recruited by Samuel Mabutsha, who was an MK.  It was during the time of the unrest in the township, people were being killed, and he explained to us that people are being killed, let us form an SDU and protect the community.  That is how I joined the SDU.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain with full details whether you went any training after you were recruited, explain precisely the roles you played if you underwent any training and what was the responsibilities or your duties which you were to carry out as a member of the SDU?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, we were trained by Samuel Mabutsha, our duty was to defend the community.

MR MOHLABA: Defending the community against who?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Against the people who were attacking the community.  We had to see to it that these people are fought back when they come to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Mohlaba?  Maybe if you led him in your questioning without expecting him to give us details, he will probably give you more details, instead of asking him pregnant questions, you confine him to specific questions with a view obviously of trying to elicit the kind of evidence that you want him to give.
	I would want to know, he says he was recruited by Samuel Mabutsha who was an MK member.  When was he recruited?  When were you recruited by Mr Mabutsha?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was Mr Mabutsha staying then?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He resided in Vosloorus.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say you were trained by him, what kind of training did you get?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He taught us to take cover and he taught us how to shoot.  He would take us to the Vosloorus stadium at times, and show us how these things worked.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you using arms in your training?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We did not use them.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mohlaba, sorry for intervening.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, that was quite helpful.  You are telling this Committee of us, were you recruited with other people and are you suggesting that you underwent training with other people, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was not only myself, it was quite a number of us.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know where Samuel Mabutsha is today?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I do.

MR MOHLABA: Can you tell the Committee?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Samuel Mabutsha passed away in 1993, on the 27th of December.

MR MOHLABA: Can you take us through this offence of, through the murder of Joseph Mkhabela?  How was this murder planned, and executed and who took part in such planning?  Tell us precisely the roles you played therein.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: One day we went to fetch the bullets from the hostel.  When we went out of the hostel, we met Joseph Mkhabela, he was together with the other two.  They were running into the hostel, in possession of firearms.
	During our stay in the hostel, we heard gunshots outside, now when we went out, we saw them running into the hostel.  We just passed each other and when we were outside the hostel, we saw a taxi parked outside, people were shot and we asked those people what happened, and they told us that they did not know.
	They said people shot at them and they ran into the hostel.  We told them yes, we saw three people running into the hostel.

MR LAX: Can you just slow down a little bit please.  There are two things that you have to remember, one, we are trying to write down your evidence, and make a few notes, but number two, the Interpreters are also having to translate everything you say.
	If you could just slow down a tiny bit, it would really help us.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Do I have to start from scratch?

MR LAX: No, carry on from where you saw the taxi outside, there were people injured, just carry on from there.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, there was a taxi parked outside, people were shot at and we asked these people what happened and they told us that they do not know what happened.  What they saw was three people who ran into the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selahle, you are still giving your evidence at a pace which will not enable the members of the Committee to take note of what you are saying.