Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-12

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, there are just a number of issues that I have to address.   Chairperson, the Commission takes exception to the fact that Mr Martini is now saying that we never, ever responded to him regarding his letters that he addressed to us.
	The fact of the matter is that our Legal Officer, Adv Paddy Prior, took the matter further and actually did liaise with Mr Martini and therefore we are here today Chairperson, in order to get consensus from them, which they accepted Chairperson.  The fact that he is stating the Commission never replied to him, we do take exception to that.
	And then just on the issue of the victims as well,  Chairperson, in relation to transport.  We do provide victims' transport, but the Commission, it has more to do with the community at large, that I think Mr Williams was referring to.   The onus obviously of the community at large is to get to a venue where it is accessible, but unfortunately in this case, we have the facts before us.  
	And then just another distortion of the facts, Chairperson, this is more, I don't really want to get into personal debates regarding the correspondence between Mr Martini and myself, but regarding the press statements made by myself, was in relation to the High Court application, which I had the mandate to do.  The only statement I made was that the Truth Commission is vehemently going to oppose the application.  In that respect Chairperson, there is absolutely nothing derogatory in that sense, it was our right, which we did. 
	And then also just regarding communications between myself as the Evidence Leader and between Mr Martini, regarding the telephonic conversations, his response to me was Chairperson "I do not want to speak to you, I do not want to speak to you", and he reiterated that quite a few times.  The fact that he says I answered telephones, etc, Chairperson, it was at that stage, his comments to me was "I do not want to speak to you", and that was the end of our conversation.
	I just wanted to address those issues, Chairperson.  Thank you.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, I take exception to that, that is a blatant distortion of the truth, what Ms Coleridge has put on record.  Sorry Mr Chairman, this is very important, because this attacks my integrity.
	If Ms Coleridge stands by her convictions, she should have replied to my letter and told me that she didn't distort the truth.  What I told Ms Coleridge, she phoned me, Mr Commissioner, she chose to phone me on a landline and then answered her cellphone rudely and then put the phone down.  If we are going, I don't want to get into this debate, Mr Commissioner, but it attacks my professional integrity and if she's put that in a letter, I take exception to that and I just want to clear the record.  What she has just placed on record, is not correct.  She was told to communicate with me on the venue by correspondence, to avoid misunderstandings.  Thank you Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Yes, well, we have heard all that has been said.  I am not aware of the present availability of any other venues, but I think it would probably be in the interests of all of us, if perhaps during the tea interval or maybe the lunch interval, if we could speak to the legal representatives, with the Panel and see if we can finally sort out this matter.
	I would at the same time, like to say that this actual venue that we are in now, has been made available to the Commission and we appreciate the fact that we are here.  I was under the impression that the whole of the 7th floor was not available, in any event, that wasn't a convenient venue, as convenient, or suitable as this.
	But as I said earlier, we are fully aware of the views of the victims, not only the victims, but of the community in Athlone.  Perhaps if we can talk it through during a tea interval, we might be able to come up with some solution.  But I would appreciate it if we could proceed with the evidence, as Ms Coleridge said, our time in the Commission is getting limited now and our prime concern is to finish matters as soon as possible, but obviously we are not going to be roughshod and let undue haste in any way tarnish the quality of the proceedings.
	Would that be acceptable then, if we could speak about this later, off the record, and try to arrive at some conclusion?  We've got two weeks here.  If it is possible, I don't know, if it is at all, to change a venue, if we can agree to do so, maybe we can.  If not, then we will have to proceed with this venue.
	As I was saying when we started, Mr van Zyl was in the process of being questioned by Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Good morning Judge.  What time would you like the tea break?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe we can hit it through to lunch today.  I don't know if that would be too pressive, would it, seeing that it is twenty to eleven now, we go through to lunch.  I apologise to the caterers for that, but we can perhaps have a little bit of a bigger lunch that we would have ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Judge, I am going to attempt to spell my surname again for the people who transcribe.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Kanovitz or Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: It is K-a-h-a-n-o-v-i-t-z.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because according to this record I am not quite able to spell my own surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you pronounce it Kahanovitz or Khanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Either, it doesn't matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Either?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Judge, also there is an error at page 709 of that record.  You will see it roundabout, well, if it was lined, it would be approximately line 10, where it says
"

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz, may I intervene here just on one aspect",
and then a question is put.  It says that it is put by me, it was in fact put by yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: Just delete that, Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  Judge, there is one error that, part of the record that suggests that a certain policeman was a member of the South African Communist Party, but I think that will be noted by everyone.  More important, at page 728, approximately line 30, there is a question put by me and there is quote "it is not my project, it is Maria's project", that should obviously be "Maree's."
	Mr van Zyl, you will recall that towards the end of the proceedings on the last occasion, you were given an opportunity to reflect on the contents of the statements that you made while you were in detention, so that you could return today to point out which portions, if any, were untrue.  Are you in a position to now answer that question?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes Chairperson.  I have studied the Section 29 statements, it is my opinion that there is no difference with regard to the Section 29 statements and the statement that I submitted to the Honourable Commission and if there are any differences, then I will be able to clear that up.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, that doesn't actually answer the question that was put to you and you are aware of that.
	You were asked whether any statement contained in those documents, and to be more precise at pages 11 to 60 of bundle B, any statement therein contained is factually incorrect or untrue, what is your answer?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, in terms of the Early Learning Centre incident and in terms of the Dullah Omar incident and in terms of the monkey foetus, the incidents for which I apply for amnesty, there are no differences.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, you are avoiding the question.  Please answer the question.

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, Mr van Zyl has answered the question.