Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

UNKNOWN: Right well, that's okay you don't have to remember it, we know that there were crates, three of you in one crate and there were other people in other crates.  You were meant to arrest people we've heard about, the fact that there were about a hundred and fifty to two hundred people.  You said in your statement you arrested six. Where, as you left this operation, what were you thinking, where would you put the people once they were arrested?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I didn't give any thought to where they would be put because afterwards Lt Vermeulen made radio contact and vehicles were sent in which we placed the injured people.  At that stage I didn't really give any thought to what we would do with the arrested people.

UNKNOWN: Did you not think it strange that you were told to arrest people and you don't have any place to put them?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No we were in radio contact and it wasn't difficult to, it wouldn't be difficult to obtain a vehicle to come and take away the arrested people.

UNKNOWN: Let's talk about that radio control.  Were you in radio control with other people on the truck?

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't have a radio.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I didn't have a radio with me.

UNKNOWN: Was the radio in the front cabin of the truck?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I know there was a radio but I couldn't tell you who had it, whether it was with the person who took the notes or whether it was with the commanding officer, but I do know we had a radio somewhere on the truck.

UNKNOWN: And was there any contact between yourself and the people who were in the crates and the people in the front of the truck who could see where they were going?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: To speak to them, is that what you  mean?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No there was no contact of that kind because you would have to stand up straight in the crate to be able to do that and then to be able to speak to the persons in the other crates.

UNKNOWN: That's what I need to know,  was there contact ...(intervention)

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I didn't have such contact because I didn't have a radio with me.

UNKNOWN: No I understand that,  you wouldn't have a radio but was there any radio contact between the people who were in the crate, other people in the crate and the people in the front of the truck?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No, in the crate in which I was there was no contact with people in other crates or the front of the truck.

UNKNOWN: So when you got your instructions for this operation, how would you have known when to shoot, what instruction was given to you as to when the signal would be for you to shoot?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I can't say whether there were to be any signs.  It was so long ago, I can't really say.  I can't say whether there was a signal as to when we were supposed to fire.

UNKNOWN: Did you watch the video?  Were you in the room when we showed the video?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I saw the video.

UNKNOWN: It seemed as though all of you came up at the same time.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I saw the video that the people emerged from the crates, not all at the same time, you can see that in the crate right at the back, the people in that crate only emerged a little bit later...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: So you were the only one that came up last?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I think it was myself and one of the others in the crate on the left-hand side.  I think the two of us were the last to stand up straight in the crates.

UNKNOWN: Now were you threatened at the time that this happened?  Did you feel threatened?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I felt threatened,

UNKNOWN: Can you describe your sense of being threatened?  What threatened you?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Whilst we were driving I heard a sudden blow like breaking glass and the vehicle came to an immediate halt after swerving to the one side and the crate in which I was actually tilted a bit.  It as a result of the sudden movement of the truck and the sudden stop.  It was actually pulled of balance and I felt threatened because we were being attacked suddenly and also because I heard the blow from the passenger cabin.  The driver or the passenger, they didn't have any protection at their windows.

UNKNOWN: But those were the people in front of you, those were other people, I'm talking about your sense of being threatened.  What threatened you?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: It was the sudden blow against the windscreen of the truck as well as the crate in which I was having been pushed off balance by the sudden stop.

UNKNOWN: Okay so the things that threatened you, the situation that threatened you was that the vehicle, the truck stopped suddenly and your crate moved because the truck had stopped so suddenly. Is that correct?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes the blow which hit the windscreen and the sudden stopping of the vehicle.  Those were all things which made me feel under threat.

UNKNOWN: Were you hurt?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I wasn't injured, I didn't sustain any injuries.

UNKNOWN: So what triggered you to shoot? It's just the car stopped and your crate moved. Why did you shoot?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I first jumped up from the crate and then made my observations and I was in the police for 25 years, and I could make the necessary observations in a fraction of a second and those were my observations whilst emerging from a crouching position in the crate.

UNKNOWN: What threatened you was the fact that the car stopped suddenly and your crate moved because the car had stopped so suddenly. Is that what threatened you?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes, as I said the impact and the sound of windscreen being broken and the sudden bringing to a halt of the vehicle, and when I emerged from underneath the crate I saw people attacking the vehicle and that made me feel even more threatened and I felt that my life was actually in danger. And I felt that if I didn't use my firearm that I could killed or sustain serious injuries.

UNKNOWN: ..stopped suddenly and it moved?

ADV VAN ZYL: No with respect Chairperson, I think there might have been a misunderstanding in the earlier questioning.  The witness clearly understood how he was threatened whilst he was still down.  Then he describes how he came up and what he saw and he said very clearly
 When I stood up straight and saw the crowd attacking the vehicle using stones, 
with respect it would be unfair to this witness to say he was only threatened by the front windscreen and the sudden stop. And he also says that when he came up and he observed and he saw the crowd attacking the vehicle with stones.  That was his evidence.

UNKNOWN: Did anybody give you instructions to fire?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No nobody gave me an instruction to start firing.

UNKNOWN: So you're in an operation with a senior officer and you feel threatened, I take that on board, and you shoot without instructions to fire.  Is that normal procedure.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes if your life's being threatened then you are capable of using your firearm.

UNKNOWN: So nobody gave you an instruction to fire.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I can't remember whether the first shot being fired by the commanding officer was an instruction or a signal to shoot, it might have been but it's too long ago I can't remember.

UNKNOWN: And how many rounds did you fire?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I have already said I shot four shots but the shotgun had stalled and I had problems with my shotgun.  In other words I could have perhaps fired fewer shots as a result of the fact that it stalled but because afterwards all four bullets were absent from the barrel of the gun I assume that I fired four shots.  Perhaps one of the bullets had left the barrel some other way than of actually firing.

UNKNOWN: Now you said in your statement also that you arrested six people.