Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

UNKNOWN: What work are you doing at this moment?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I'm a business owner.  I'm a small business owner.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, I understand that you were injured in the incident in Piet Retief, correct?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you feel about that?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I feel bad because I was working for the community at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you think that your injury or the infliction of the injury was not justified?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes, it was not justified nor was it acceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did you hold in the community at that time?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I was Mayor of Ethandakukhanya.  Maybe we should put this straight - it was spoken here about the mayor of Piet Retief but at the time I was Mayor of Ethandakukhanya under 102 Act and this went on to 127 followed by Act 209.  This should be clarified.

CHAIRPERSON: That was under the apartheid regime those Acts?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I would say the that Act was in use was of course under the Apartheid regime and the Act 127 that I'm talking about was used at the time during which there were democratic negotiations and the 209 Act was following the negotiations at the World Trade Centre.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you regard yourself as a victim?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I am a victim that was not supposed to be a victim because I was working for the community not belonging to any political party.  I was victimised by thugs and people who were trying to drag me down.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja but you were a victim in the sense that you were injured as was described here earlier in this hearing and for the purposes of this Act you want to be regarded as a victim?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I don't want to be regarded as a victim, I am a victim.  I was shot and harassed at a time when I did not belong to any political party.  There were no politics in the area at the time, there was no conflict until I was shot and the manner in which I was working and the manner in which we were elected I would say we were the first township whose councillors were democratically elected at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, I thought I told you and I made it specifically an announcement to the public that this section of the hearing is not to hear about your political attributes - this Act says that this Committee must declare victims and then refer the position of those victims to the Reparations Committee to consider a financial grant.  That is all.  I'm going to repeat the question - do you want us to regard you as a victim for the purposes of the Act?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Chairperson, I think you will allow me to explain.  The one opportunity that you have just granted me is one opportunity that I have long been waiting for.  In 1996 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're making a mistake now.  I did not grant you an opportunity to come make political speeches.  I granted you an opportunity to come tell us how you felt and to establish whether you are a victim or not.  That's the section that we're busy with in this hearing.  The time for saying what you want to say now is to be spent in front of the Human Rights Violations Committee not in front of the Amnesty Committee.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Thank you for explaining that to me.  Thank you for informing me that there is another Committee in existence.  That was not clear, I didn't know that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can I repeat the question.  Do you want us for the purposes of the Act to declare you a victim so that the Reparations Committee can consider some financial ground because you are a victim?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes I am a victim in so far as reparation is concerned, it is for the Committee to decide but I am a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me what is your address?  Why I ask you is that communication can go directly to you.  I understand that the subpoena got lost somewhere so I need to tell the Committees who are dealing with this exactly where they can send whatever communication they want to send to you.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: My address is Box 167, Piet Retief, Ethandakukhanya, that's the township where I reside.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that please?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: E-t-h-a-n-d-a-k-u-k-h-a-n-y-a.

CHAIRPERSON: And what's your full names please?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Alpheus Dumusane Msibi.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other questions?

UNKNOWN: If you will just allow me, I would like to put one question.
	Mr Msibi as you've heard the testimony of Mr Gushu and what you experienced when you were shot do you think that you were shot because of some political reason?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: No, that is not correct.

UNKNOWN: How did you perceive the situation?  What was the peoples' intention when they shot you?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: It was thuggery, that's all I can say.  It was thuggery.  It was not politics.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mlangeni who worked for you was he involved in any political organisation?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I wouldn't know but he was just an ordinary community member to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, what's Mr Mlangeni's full names?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Themba Mlangeni.

CHAIRPERSON: And where can he be contacted?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: You can try and get hold of Adelaide Mlangeni working at the provincial hospital at Piet Retief or alternatively Beki Mlangeni who resides in Stand Number 298 Tokazani, Piet Retief.

CHAIRPERSON: That provincial hospital is in Piet Retief?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you know about the Black Cats and if you do know about them did you give them shelter at one stage?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: That is an insult to me, I've never harboured Black Cats nor were there Black Cats at Piet Retief and I do not harbour thugs at my home.

UNKNOWN: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS VAN DER WALT.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose anybody else has any questions for this witness?

MR BLACK: I'm directly involved Mr Chairman, I'd like - there's some matters I'd like to clear up if possible.
	Mr Msibi is it correct you are a prominent member in the community at Piet Retief?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: That is true.

MR BLACK: Yes, in fact it is said that you're the Chairman of the Nationalist Party there?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: That is utter lies.

MR BLACK: So you don't hold out to anybody there that you held a high office in the Nationalist Party?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Not at all those are ...[indistinct] lies.

MR BLACK: As a prominent member of the community are you aware of the fact that the Human Rights Violations Committee has in fact sat in Piet Retief - in fact sat there last year some time?

CHAIRPERSON: What relevance is that Mr ...[intervention]

MR BLACK: The relevance is that he did not testify before the Human Rights Violation Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: So what.  So what - how is that going to effect our deliberations?

MR BLACK: It is raised now that this is the first time he hears of this, such a Committee and we've got to go through the whole process ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So what?

MR BLACK: Well be that as it may then.  Then if I'll - I'll move on.  Do you know Mr Shlaze?  Shleze, sorry.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I just want to correct you.  I didn't know  what the Chairman ultimately said about the question that you posed earlier on.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that the Chairman's view was that it's immaterial to this hearing that the Human Rights Violations Committee did sit in Piet Retief.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: With your permission Chairperson, I would like to explain that I was at Piet Retief.  Msibi's name was not announced, it was only used in Nelspruit and I was sitting at the front row during those hearings.