Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-25

MR LAX: Look, we understand that, but - we don't necessarily have a statement from you, so it is quite interesting to add the background.

WITNESS:   Okay, Sir.  My shop was - actually it was still the course of in the morning, and ... (intervention)

MR LAX: What month was that?

WITNESS:   In July.  And everything was removed by the community, the people in the location.  They took everything - everything.  And in D section they took everything and even burned down the shop.

MR LAX: What sort of financial loss did you suffer as a result of that?

WITNESS:   I can say round about over R200 000,00.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Now ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I virtually had nothing after that.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, are you still involved in business activities?

WITNESS:   Oh well, yes.

MR LAX: Have you rebuilt yourself at all?

WITNESS:   From then on I have relied on ... (inaudible) ... that's all, so I always have to beg in order to have something.

MR LAX: Let's turn to your brother's story now.  That was in the 22nd of November 1980.

WITNESS:   22nd November 1980.  November, I think it's when he was shot.

MR LAX: Yes.

WITNESS:   Yes.  And he died on the 27th.

MR LAX: That's right.  Do you know what happened and how he was shot?

WITNESS:   It was in the evening at about between eight and seven.

MR LAX: Right.

WITNESS:   I was in my shop when I got the message that my brother was shot.  Then I run to there.  When I got there he was nowhere to be found in the shop, and then they told me he ran around the shop.  Then I tried to trace him.  I found him along the road.  He had collapsed there.  And then I made all the means to phone the what-do-you-call - the ambulance, and when it arrived now we took him to the ... (inaudible) ... hospital, where he was transferred to ... (inaudible) ... in Bloemfontein.

MR LAX: And he ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   He was by then  ... ... (inaudible) ... coma.  He was ... (inaudible) ... because I used to ask - I asked him whether can he hear me, and then he answered me in a very, very low voice.

MR LAX: Did you ever ascertain from him whether he - was he ever able to tell you who shot him?

WITNESS:   I tried, but his voice failed.

MR LAX: What your mother told us, just for the record, is that two men arrived at the shop.

WITNESS:   Could you please repeat that.

MR LAX: What your mother told us was that two men arrived at the shop.  They said they wanted to speak to your brother in private, so he took them to the back of the shop, into a storeroom.

WITNESS:   Well, I've got no background about that.

MR LAX: Yes, I'm just telling you for the record so you know that that's more or less what happened.

WITNESS:   No, actually what happened, what I actually learned from the workers, employees, they said people arrived there - I don't know how many were they - then they talked to him, but I can't remember what did they say.  Then they shot him.

MR LAX: How has this shooting - I mean it's obvious how it's affected your mother, you've told us that already, but has it affected any of the other family members directly in any way?

WITNESS:   Tremendously, yes.  From there - we loved him very much.  He was in fact our inspiration.  We ... (inaudible) ... him very much, and after that most of us changed.  My brothers they are alcoholics right now.  Their lives have changed.

MR LAX: So they've taken it very badly.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Was your brother involved in political activity?  Was he a member of any political organisation?

WITNESS:   All I can say is yes, he did - when he was in Thaba Nchu he was in politics.  He actually had something to do with the same Dikwankwetla.

MR LAX: The Dikwankwetla as well?

WITNESS:   That's right, but now when he came here in ... (inaudible) ... he just told me he's no longer interested in politics, he wants to work.

MR LAX: So he wasn't an active supporter of, for example, the UDF or the ANC or some other party that was opposed to the Dikwankwetla Party?

WITNESS:   I have got no record of that.  I actually don't  know.

MR LAX: But in essence he was a Dikwankwetla supporter that stopped supporting them.

WITNESS:   In fact I shouldn't say he was actually supporting Dikwankwetla.  All what I say is in Thaba Nchu he was at loggerheads with the Bophutatswana Government because of the Kromdraai children(?).

MR LAX: The Kromdraai children?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: What is that?  If you will just elaborate a bit.

WITNESS:   They were the people who were regarded as the squatters in Thaba Nchu.

MR LAX: Were they in a - were those - was that community at odds with the Bophutatswana Government?

WITNESS:   Yes.  They actually were not wanted by the Bophutatswana.

MR LAX: And your brother supported them in some way?

WITNESS:  Our brother supported them because they were not allowed to be given the credit, they were not allowed to be given water, so they used to come to his shop and draw some water, and they used - he used to give them some credit and all those things.  And that was not acceptable by the then government of Bophutatswana.

MR LAX: Who pointed - you said the leader of that meeting called your brother Pharoah and pointed towards him.

WITNESS:  Not actually he, but when he was saying he was a Pharoah people who were sitting there they pointed at my brother and said, "He is that person who is Pharoah."

MR LAX: All right.  Who was that person leading the meeting?

WITNESS:   It was the leader of the Dikwankwetla, Mr Tsike Bope.

MR LAX: Thank you very much.  I just want to see if Dr Magwaza has any questions she'd like to add.  Just one last question.  Was your brother married at all?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was married.

MR LAX: And his wife, where is she?

WITNESS:   His wife - I can say she's a virtual beggar in Thaba Nchu as she has no work to do and she just ... (incomplete)

MR LAX: Did she move back to Thaba Nchu?

WITNESS:   Because she said she is now afraid of living in ... (inaudible)

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR LAX: /CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: I have no specific questions to ask, but I would just like to conclude by making a few comments, that it really saddened most of us here to be aware how the system managed to divide the communities, how it managed to sow the seeds of mistrust and suspicion which led to the malicious killing of your brother.  I think more so - what's even more distressing is to see how the family life was affected by the death of your brother.  You do come across as having been a successful family, and then your life changed, and the pain you carry with you.  It is very difficult to see and observe what happened to your mother at such a late age in her life, the pain she is suffering, and the life that has changed for her for the worse.  I would like to say, directed to you, Mama Tele, that we are aware of the pain you are going through, and you have been carrying it for a very long, long time.  I can only hope that the perpetrators, wherever they are, one day they will come to realise how malicious their deed was.  That's all we can say, because we cannot even hope to find them wherever they are.  But is Mama Tele getting some treatment?  That's what you said?

WITNESS:   She does, but the problem - she's always having a problem of funds.

CHAIRPERSON: The problem of funds?

WITNESS:   Yes, but though she gets some grants from the Government she's got now.

CHAIRPERSON: So she is not going regularly for treatment?

WITNESS:  Well, we try to help her by struggling.

CHAIRPERSON: Does she have to pay for the treatment?  Is it a private doctor or a hospital?

WITNESS:   It's a private doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have problems in taking her to hospital?

WITNESS:   Well, sometimes she prefers - actually the children prefers to take her to a private doctor.