Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

LAURENS MBATHA: It is true.

PROF DE KOKER: That is true.  So, somewhere, then, there must be a third person or one of the two statements is incorrect?  My attention was just drawn, members of the Committee, to page 16, that is evidence given by Mr Mbakwe to the Human Rights Violations Committee, page 16 and that is also about 60% into the page.
"I joined the other guys who were at the back.  There was Mafu Davids and another comrade.",
and I will skip a few,
"... and a few other comrades, we were about six or seven.  We were standing, observing the proceedings from the back.".
According to this statement, then, Major Mbatha, Mr Mbakwe said that he was standing at the back.

LAURENS MBATHA: I think what I have said, in relation to this statement, the member can respond to it.

PROF DE KOKER: As far as I understood you raised the issue of where Mr Sipho Mbakwe was standing.

LAURENS MBATHA: It is true.

PROF DE KOKER: And could we, perhaps, just, then, just clarify for the record precisely, according to your statement where he was standing.

LAURENS MBATHA: I said he was in front.

PROF DE KOKER: In front and according to his statement he was standing at the back.  Thank you very much for that clarification.

MR TSHOLANKU: Excuse me Mr Chairman, excuse me Mr Chairman, if I may interject, the last response, remark made by Prof de Koker is not entirely true.  If he could read the whole paragraph and then rephrase his question and, you know, try and establish exactly what point was the Major referring to when he says he was standing next to Sipho, because it is entirely clear from the paragraph itself.  Sipho says,
"At that point I was walking to the front to John Block."
So, if you could exactly establish at what point was he standing at the front and at what point was he standing at the back.

PROF DE KOKER: Right.  Thank you very much Mr Tsholanku, I think I saw what you referred to and that is a statement regarding his position.  Was Mr Mbakwe standing at the front, we just could recapture that?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: He was not walking around, he was standing?

LAURENS MBATHA: I referred to the time when I was still there.  So, that one I cannot determine as what time did he move out, what direction did he take.

PROF DE KOKER: And what is the time that you are referring to and was that when the hand grenade was thrown?

LAURENS MBATHA: It was the time when I was in front and the hand grenade thrown.

PROF DE KOKER: And the hand grenade thrown and at that stage he was standing in front of you?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, it is true.

PROF DE KOKER: Right, because according to this statement he also said he was at the back,
"... and then when the memorandums were handed over, at that point I was walking to the front to John Block."
That, unfortunately, Mr Chairman, we do not have Mr Mbakwe at the moment with us so I do not think we will be able to clarify the matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Unless of course, Prof de Koker, you want to ask him where Mr John Block was at the time when he noticed that Sipho was standing in front of him.

PROF DE KOKER: May we regard that as your question to Major Mbatha?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you want to respond to that, Mr Mbatha?

LAURENS MBATHA: John, that time, was in front, facing towards the crowd, calming the crowd down, because the reaction in terms of moving back the movement and he was trying to calm people down, they must prepare to move back smoothly without the noise, without the insults, everything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

PROF DE KOKER: At that state, Major Mbatha, the memorandums were handed over.  What was Mr Block actually doing and saying to the crowd at that moment?

LAURENS MBATHA: With the movement of the crowd to move back.  As I have said, words, insults, the movement from there, Block came in front and calmed them down, that they must calm down and they must move back in a proper manner.

PROF DE KOKER: That is move back to where the march started.  Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, they were going home.

PROF DE KOKER: What were his exact words at that stage?  Can you recall them?

LAURENS MBATHA: I cannot recall the exact words, but just the content of what he said.

PROF DE KOKER: I put it to you, Major Mbatha, that at that stage, Mr John Block, and this is corroborated by affidavits by Mr Vernon Patrick, Mr Block himself and Mr Jonathan America, that he was telling the crowd that we have accomplished what we come, we came for, please move back now the way that you came orderly and peacefully.  Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: I do not refute the first statement that you have referred to, but the last remaining, it is what I have said, the content, they must go back in an orderly manner.

PROF DE KOKER: It is poignant that this particular moment when Mr John Block, whom you acknowledge to be your senior, at that stage, that when he was asking the crowd to act as the leadership gave assurances to everyone involved, that the crowd should, after a very orderly march, now after they have accomplished what they came for, should turn back and return to town in an orderly and peaceful manner, that this exact moment should be the moment when the hand grenade was launched.

LAURENS MBATHA: I think I did explain my instructions initially and I think the best person to respond to this one, the time whilst the people were there, it is still Walter Smiles.

PROF DE KOKER: Quite correct.  So, at that stage Mr Smiles had your instructions together with the instructions of Mr John Block and they were contradictory.  You ordered him to throw the grenade, Mr John Block ordered him and the rest of the crowd to turn around and to return in peace.  He had, therefore, two conflicting orders from two senior people.  He chose to follow the first order. Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: That is true.

PROF DE KOKER: What ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: They were not conflicting orders, they were different orders.  They were not conflicting orders.  Mr Block did not say to him do not throw the hand grenade anymore.

PROF DE KOKER: Quite correct, Mr Chairman, not specifically conflicting, but in content and spirit quite different.  The one to perform an act of violence ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That is why they are different, Mr, Prof de Koker.  They are not (...indistinct).

PROF DE KOKER: Ja.  Contradictory, Mr Chairperson, well, in the sense that one could not do the other and still comply with the first.  One either had to choose either the one ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can he throw the hand grenade and then move back and go home?

PROF DE KOKER: Peacefully and orderly.

CHAIRPERSON: Peacefully with who?

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Major Mbatha, when did you learn or what did you do when you saw the outcome of the attack?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that time we evacuated the victims to the KH and later spoke to Smiles, because the whole situation was very disturbing, because this was not the intended results that one had expected, but what I said to Smiles, Sir, that, you know, Smiles, it is true, it was a mistake.  That is a fact that you know, but, unfortunately, within the living world nobody could reach those who are outside, that is the dead, because I even said to him the only person amongst all these people who are here, if he could talk, if he could come forward is Ezekiel Mokone himself to say that this thing was not intended for him, because I told Smiles that, really, this thing should not break him, because we know it, that was not the aim of the action.  Is after when I spoke to him.

PROF DE KOKER: When did you report the action to Umkhonto weSizwe, to your seniors?

LAURENS MBATHA: I did not report the matter to them, because they did not instruct me to do it at that stage.

PROF DE KOKER: At what stage did you report it to them?