Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: Yes, we have one thing now and I'm going to leave it at that and that is you admit that you've heard here at the hearing that the other applicants are telling lies and that made you apply for amnesty.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was present when they told those lies.

MR LOWIES: And that caused you to apply for amnesty to set the record straight, yes or no?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I mentioned before that I had submitted my application by that time.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just to clarify something, were you not in prison, are you not in prison.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am in prison.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, so when you say you were here at the TRC when you heard the applicants telling lies, what had you come to do at the TRC if you had not applied by then for this Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I had submitted my application even before the hearing started and I was present here when the co-applicants have evidence.

ADV SIGODI: Were you here at this building when you heard them telling lies, were you here in this building?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was in the premises, not in this hall.

ADV SIGODI: So when were you brought to these hearings?
For the first time, for the first time when were you brought from prison to these hearings for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember but I was in Leeukop and I was transferred to the prison here, that was when the hearing started.

ADV SIGODI: So do you know why you were brought from the prison to these hearings, were you brought because you were an applicant or what?  Do you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was.

ADV SIGODI: So can you remember at what stage did you come?  Who was giving evidence when you came here for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: No, who was giving of the applicants, who was giving evidence when you came to the hearings for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I remember Victor Mthembu.

ADV SIGODI: And when he testified, when he was testifying you had already made your application, is that what you are saying for the Boipatong matter, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Just bear with me for a second please?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, we will be adjourning at 1 o'clock for lunch.

MR LOWIES: Sir, but when Victor Mthembu gave evidence you were not in the hearing, nobody knew of you at that stage of the applicants and it was at a different venue?  Your answers preceding my questioning now can therefore not be true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When Victor gave evidence I was already here, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: But Victor Kezwa was not an applicant was he?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I mean Victor Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you see the point that's being made is this, the very first occasion when you attended these hearings was when this Committee was sitting at these premises, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what's being put to you is that Victor Mthembu gave evidence not at this venue but at some other venue so you could not have been present when he gave evidence, that's what's being put to you, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's your comment?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I must have misunderstood the question.

MR LOWIES: But Sir, why did you answer that you heard Victor Mthembu stating that there were no police involved?  That was the effect of your evidence, you agree that cannot be true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it is not true.

MR LOWIES: Let's hear this then.  Did you ever hear what Victor Mthembu's evidence is all about?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think I heard it on TV.

MR LOWIES: So you heard Victor Mthembu's evidence on TV?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was in the Stofberg Prison and I heard him on TV.

MR LOWIES: You actually saw Victor and you heard what he said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he said that he - he gave evidence to the effect that a snake gives birth to another snake, that is why he killed those babies.

MR LOWIES: And that you heard over the TV?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Because I'm going to do the following and I want you to be quite sure in that so that there's no misunderstanding, we're going to request the raw tapes from the SABC and we're going to check whether you're telling the truth so I want to make sure.  Your version is the following thus, it was on TV that Victor Mthembu was reported as saying a snake gives birth to another snake?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it was on the news, they showed it.  I was also on the news yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is the position therefore this and if this is not correct would you let me know, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You first saw the hearings or heard of the hearings when you watched a television set whilst you were in prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, with regards to Victor Mthembu it was on the news and I was in Stofberg prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Victor Mthembu was the first person or the first applicant, that's why I'm asking you did you hear of this hearing for the first time when you were in prison that they were in progress?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was at Stofberg.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's where you saw Victor Mthembu giving evidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes but I listened to the evidence of others.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not present from what you are telling us when Victor Mthembu have evidence before this Committee?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were present when some of the remaining applicants gave evidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Now if you are saying you were present when the others were giving evidence, so I want you to be very clear and tell us when you came to the hearings for the first time from the prison, who was giving evidence at this hearing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I'm not mistaken it was Buthelezi who was supposedly in charge of the IFP youth.

ADV SIGODI: And where were you taken to, I just want some clarity, I want to hear it from you, which venue did you go to, did you come to this venue or did you go to another venue?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was taken to this venue, the ISCOR club.

ADV SIGODI: Alright and were you sitting with the applicants or where were you sitting, where were you sitting were you in the same hall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was in the other back room, not in the hall with them.

MR LOWIES: Now was it the evidence of Victor Mthembu that caused you to apply for amnesty in the Boipatong matter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have already mentioned that before that by that time I had already submitted an application form with regards to that matter.

MR LOWIES: The Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now when did you hear for the first time that mention or that it was denied rather that there was any police involvement in the Boipatong attack.  When did you hear that for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember quite well but I think I was brought here on a Tuesday where I heard that some of the applicants were giving evidence to the effect that the police were either not there or that they saw one or two Casspirs.  I was present when Buthelezi gave his evidence with regards to Victor, I was still in prison.

MR LOWIES: So I just want you to be clear on this, so your evidence is the first time you heard that it's denied that there were any policemen involved was when Buthelezi gave evidence or the guy that you think is Buthelezi, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it was him and others.