Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

MR LASICH: Well, just - we've - your statement, unfortunately we don't have it at the moment.  Could you indicate the number of murders which haven't been dealt with by the trial that you're in, that you're applying for amnesty for?

WITNESS:   Do you want me to count the cases that I've been convicted of or the cases that I'm involved in generally?

MR LASICH: Well, let's put it this way.  How many murders were you convicted of in the trial?

WITNESS:   Seven.

MR LASICH: Now how many other murders are you applying for amnesty?

WITNESS:   There are many.

MR LASICH: More than ten, more than twenty?

WITNESS:   They're not more than twenty.

MR LASICH: Can you remember how many people you've murdered?

MR LASICH: /---   Maybe

MR LASICH: 3A

WITNESS:   Maybe I can remember.  Certain assassinations where we're killing individuals, but where we were shooting indiscrimately, the mobs, I wouldn't be able to say how many were killed.

MR LASICH: Now you mentioned indiscriminate shooting.  I don't want to take up too much time with this, but you heard the evidence of Mr Mkhize, one of your co-accused in the Mbambo trial.  Are you referring to that sort of situation where there was a retaliation against an indiscriminate attack by ANC members?

WITNESS:   I am referring to mobs where we would attack buses which had people on board who were coming from - who were going to work in Richards Bay, such as Mondi, Alusaf, which were known of having COSATU employees and bus stops where you will find people at night going to work to factories like Alusaf, Mondi, that we knew were dominant by the - the union was COSATU.  I'm referring to such places and such things.

MR LASICH: Right, we've got the picture.  And these attacks, was Gcina Mkhize with you during these attacks?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR LASICH: Was he regularly with you, all times with you or infrequently with you during these attacks?

WITNESS:   He was with me all the time.  It's only time that he wasn't with me.

MR LASICH: Now you've mentioned the investigation by the Goldstone Commission and fabrication of evidence.  Did you ever make a statement for purposes of the Goldstone Commission?

WITNESS:   You mean me submitting a statement to the Goldstone Commission?

MR LASICH: Yes.

WITNESS:   Yes, there was a statement that we wrote in Isipingo.  If I'm not mistaken it was 1994.

MR LASICH: /I would

MR LASICH: 3A I would assume that was a lie, that statement?

WITNESS:  That is true.

MR LASICH: And as far as you are concerned, the docket investigating the - well, in connection with the investigation for Dlamini's death, you also lied there?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR LASICH: Your plea at your trial was a plea of not guilty, is that not correct?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR LASICH: When did you decide that you would come clean, so to speak, in that trial?

WITNESS:   I decided in 1994, before the trial, but as for the statements, the true statements were submitted in January 1995.

MR LASICH: Now did it not cross your mind to apply for amnesty or indemnity when you decided to come clean with this, before you were actually prosecuted?

WITNESS:   May you please repeat your question again?

MR LASICH: Did you not - when you decided to come clean, why did you not consider applying for indemnity of amnesty then instead of going through a whole trial?

WITNESS:   I did contemplate on applying for indemnity.

MR LASICH: And why did you not do so?

WITNESS:   When we first started writing the statements, was to assist the investigation unit, task unit, ITU, so that after we're done with that, we would apply for indemnity.

MR LASICH: Was this prior to the trial proceeding?

WITNESS:   You mean - the writing of the statement was done after the trial in 1995, January, but the decision to assist the Investigation Task Unit was taken in 1994.

MR LASICH: Well, the question is did you not then go and approach some officer of the ITU or somebody like that prior to this trial proceeding to come clean?

WITNESS:   We

MR LASICH: /did

MR LASICH: 3A did contact the offices and they knew.

MR LASICH: Now, I want to suggest to you that you only decided to come out with this story or version of events once you knew you were facing a heavy sentence for murders and you were trying to get mitigation of sentence through to the Judge.

WITNESS:   That is not true, I will completely refute that.  I took this decision in 1994, where I even told the officers, ITU officers, I told them that they should go and talk to Mr Daluxolo Luthuli and tell him that we will disclose the truth, we'll put the truth on the table and Daluxolo Luthuli at the time was - at that time was in Ulundi, so that that when the trial approached in November 1994, before we were convicted, Mr Daluxolo arrived, came to Mtunzini Court and Colonel Dutton was present.  He was heading the Investigation Task Unit at that time and I told Madlanduna at that time that we have taken a decision that we want to tell the truth as it is.  That's when Madlanduna told us that it is fine, we are at liberty to tell the truth as it was, because the Caprivians were disturbed about our arrest and had a meeting with Madlanduna and wrote a letter to Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi that they were requesting to see him so that they could discuss our matter and Chief Buthelezi promised that he will attend the meeting, but to no avail and he ended up saying he gave a letter from the Caprivians, written by him, gave to his driver, Mr Dumakude and he did not know what Dumakude did with the letter.  The decision of telling the truth we took before we were convicted, even sentenced.  The ITU knows that explicitly clear.

MR LASICH: That begs the question as to why you didn't plead guilty then in the first place?

WITNESS:   We were advised by

MR LASICH: /our

MR LASICH: 3A our attorney, Mr John Wills, that we should plead not guilty and remain silent thereafter and not challenge the evidence which will be rendered by the witnesses and after all that we will give our version and we did that in our mitigation here in Durban Supreme Court, where we told the truth as I'm telling it today to this Commission.

MR LASICH: Right.  If we can deal with a few minor aspects or major aspects, depending on who are you are and the story you tell.  You mentioned that a vehicle such as Mayor B B Biyela's vehicles was used for the perpetration of hit squad activities.  Was anything done to disguise the vehicle?

WITNESS:   We changed the car registration numbers.

MR LASICH: Is that in respect of all the vehicles that you've mentioned?

WITNESS:   It's with respect to all the vehicles.

MR LASICH: You didn't change the appearance of the vehicle, just the number-plates?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR LASICH: Now you've heard it before, Mr Mbambo, but in your evidence you've mentioned, inter alia, Mrs Mbuyazi and Mr B B Biyela and others, they will of course deny your allegations of their involvement in hit squad activities or anything unlawful.  Could you indicate whether you agree or disagree with that?

WITNESS:   I know that they will refute everything, because it is apparent to me that they are not into reconciliation between IFP and ANC.  Until such time that they are ready to do that, they will come clean, but as for now, I know that they will repudiate everything, because they are not yet ready to get back and tie the past with the present, but what I have said to you today, it's true.

MR LASICH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR LASICH: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LASICH

MR LASICH: /

MR LASICH: MR WILLS

MR LASICH: 3A