Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-07

MR VAN ZYL: /That's the

MR VAN ZYL: 3A That's the kind of penetration where we would approach a house where we know our target is in to kill, not to protect.  I'm not talking about rescue here.  I'm talking about going to kill a person who is inside the house.  I have explained that explicitly clear to the Commission.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Mkhize, I wasn't referring to you, and I was also no referring to any of the Caprivi recruits or trainees, but let us try to solve the problem differently.  Your testimony was to the effect that the training that you received would not have been to the benefit of the community.  Why did you make that statement?  What was the reason?

WITNESS:   That is quite true.  The community was not going to benefit.  Only the IFP group would have benefited from that, because we would have destroyed the entire ANC and conquered it.  But as for the community, not the entire community would have benefited, except for the IFP.

MR VAN ZYL: And the entire ANC would have been destroyed by these 200 members, of which about 100 did counter-mobilization in offices?  Is that what you're saying?

WITNESS:   If you may remember from yesterday, Madlanduna, who was my commander then, did say that according to his knowledge the training was still going to go on, but I don't want to dwell on that, whether it did continue or not, but I don't have any knowledge as to how many were going to be trained by IFP or whether they were trained, because if you remember quite well or if you know and follow the politics of this country, there were camps in Mlaba and Mkhuze.  I don't want to embark on that, because that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.  I'm just giving you as broad a picture that you should be in a position to know that 200 people were not that much.

MR VAN ZYL: /Yes, Mr Mkhize.

MR VAN ZYL: 3A Yes, Mr Mkhize.  In conclusion I would put it to you that in respect of this training and the purpose of the training and bearing in mind the circumstances, namely that you were trained in counter-mobilization during the specialist training phase and subsequent to the training you then did counter-mobilization work for about two years and that if it wasn't for the call which you received from Mr Luthuli you wouldn't have sat here today.  You are now in a position that you want to blame the training that you received in the Caprivi for your murderous actions three years later and that is why you are trying to put such a slant on the position.

WITNESS:   No, I did not say I am blaming the training.  I blame the fact that I was misused.

MR VAN ZYL: By Mr Luthuli?  Were you exploited by Mr Luthuli?

WITNESS:   No, Mr Luthuli is right next to me as I'm speaking and he testified before this Commission the truth and the truth only that I know very well.  The ones I'm blaming are the ones that have sent you, as you are sitting there, that you should come to the Commission because they don't want to come themselves in person.  That you should come and debate with me to prove the fact that all what I'm saying is blatant lie and convince the Commission that I'm telling you lie.  Those are the people I'm blaming.  The ones who have been afforded opportunity, that all the organizations should reveal its view, but they refuse to come in front of the Commission and today it looks like all what we are saying it's a blue lie, but they forget that we are talking about lives here and one day they'll have to answer to God Almighty.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR VAN ZYL: /NO FURTHER

MR VAN ZYL: 3A NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ZYL

MR DE VOS: It seems to me I'm next.  Thank you.  Mr Mkhize, you told us everything.  You told us how you were trained in the Caprivi and you gave us a broad perspective of the different type of things that you were trained in.  Now, can you tell this Commission, when were you trained to kill your opponent by burning him?

WITNESS:   The speaker's mike is not on.

MR DE VOS: Let me take it a little bit further then.  At the time when you were recruited to join this special training in the Caprivi, approximately 200 people came together and I suppose from all over KwaZulu/Natal.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR DE VOS: You didn't go through any selection process.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR DE VOS: And the only claim to fame was that you should be members of Inkatha?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  There was a certain criterion that was used in the selection process.

MR LAX: He also mentioned yesterday that you were healthy or a fit person or something like that.

MR DE VOS: Now, Mr Mkhize, what I don't understand if you take 200 people from all walks of life and you bring them together to train them as hit squads then there's an inherent danger in doing just that, because you don't know who might refuse to be a member of a hit squad.  You don't know who is going to talk out about the whole thing.  Who is going to disclose the facts.  Do you agree with me?

WITNESS:   Do you mean to tell me that all the people that are working for the SADF are from one place?  Is that what you are trying to imply?  That all the people who crossed the border to be trained by the MK in outside countries were

MR DE VOS: /from one

MR DE VOS: 3A from one place?

MR DE VOS: I didn't say it, Mr Mkhize.  All I'm saying is now you are bringing 200 people together.  They think they are going to become policemen, according to your own evidence, but in the meantime you're going to be trained to become murderers, because that's the story you're telling this Commission, and the two things don't come together.

WITNESS:  The bonds between the people would not be created by the fact that they come from the same place, but it comes - it stems from their beliefs as to what they believe as individual.  It brings them together and it creates a link.  If they are loyal to Inkatha, even if they can be from different places - Newcastle, Johannesburg - as long as they know the principles that govern Inkatha they will do what the Inkatha demands of them as members of the Inkatha.  The bond is not created by being from the same place.  It's their beliefs that govern them.

MR DE VOS: Sorry, in other words it's the beliefs of Inkatha that will determine their actions.  Is that correct?  Am I correct?

WITNESS:   Could you please repeat the question?

MR DE VOS: It is the beliefs of Inkatha, the organization, that would determine their actions?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  Each and every organization changes from time to time.  At that time Inkatha was what was called, "Cultural liberation movement", and it has since changed.  It is a political organization.  It is a party, an opposing party.  Because an organization is dynamic.  It changes from time to time.  It grows and it changes its ideologies.  People who were loyal to Inkatha are the ones who are going to go along with the principles and ideals of the Inkatha as to when the leaders change or whether they do change, in

MR DE VOS: /fact, the people

MR DE VOS: 3A fact, the people who are loyal to the group are the people who will always abide by the rules and regulations of that particular political organization.