Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-09

MR JANSEN: Now above you you directly reported to the head of Security namely Johan Coetzee or second in charge, Jan du Preez. There were no structures, any other structures between the head of Security Police and the C Section.

UNKNOWN: I was not directly involved in C1.  At that stage there was a Colonel van Rensburg who was a direct commander of C1 Section.

MR JANSEN: If you refer to C1, you refer to Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I'm referring to Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: The C Section and later was divided into C1 and C2 and C2 specialised on intelligence functions, that is the gathering of intelligence and the processing of that?

UNKNOWN: No, C2's purpose was the interrogation of arrested terrorists.

MR JANSEN: I've left out the interrogation or the questioning part but they were stationed at headquarters, namely at Wagthuis.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: At that stage C1 specifically referred to Vlakplaas itself?

UNKNOWN: Yes that is correct.

MR JANSEN: Just to return to the previous question, you did not answer that.  Between you and the commanding structure of the Security Police there was no other structure.  You reported to him directly and these heads of the sections and a security head office met on a daily basis, usually during the mornings, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR JANSEN: Those meetings were referred to as Sanhedrins?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Is it correct that your office and the office of the head of the Security Branch or the security section of the police were very near to one another.

UNKNOWN: Ja.

MR JANSEN: And would it be a just remark to say that it was the perspective of the commander of Vlakplaas that after having received an instruction from you that you were acting on your own discretion or that this authorisation had been cleared from head office?

UNKNOWN: That would be normal to accept this situation.

MR JANSEN: They never got the idea that you were acting against the wishes of your seniors?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR JANSEN: Is it correct that in 1980 Vlakplaas was a relatively small unit?

UNKNOWN: Ja.

MR JANSEN: In 1990 it was a relatively big unit?

UNKNOWN: Ja.

MR JANSEN: Initially it consisted out of five white staff members and 15 askaris?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: By 1990 there were more than 100 people involved in Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: I can just speak up to 1989, that was more than 100 at that stage.

MR JANSEN: The official purpose of Vlakplaas was the identification and tracking of ANC and PAC infiltrators and also their rehabilitation.  Did you ever receive statistics from the Vlakplaas commander of how many infiltrators were arrested?

UNKNOWN: Initially they were very few.

MR JANSEN: Did they increase?

UNKNOWN: I would not say that it had increased but there was, but more and more terrorists came to Vlakplaas, those people had to be rehabilitated.

MR JANSEN: Good. I accept that Vlakplaas' budget had to be motivated on an annual basis.

UNKNOWN: Any budget has to be motivated.

MR JANSEN: To whom did you have to motivate Vlakplaas' budget?

UNKNOWN: I had to motivate it with the financial section.

MR JANSEN: And they would have conveyed it to the head of security?

MR JANSEN: No there was a division involved with finances.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I just want to point out with all due respect my learned friend is going beyond all realms of possible relevance with his questions in my opinion, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Well ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I dare indicate that I have also been wanting to know whether you are going to come to a stage where I should see in what way your clients, in particular Dirk Coetzee is affected by all of this.  May I just remind you that in the nature of these proceedings we allow limited cross-examinations and if you could just home on to the things that you'd like to put in terms of instructions, maybe then we'll get quicker to that.

MR JANSEN: Yes yes Mr Chairman I'm aware of the fact that I must get to the points I'm trying to make, but you must understand Mr Chairman that one thing that runs through as a golden rule in the amnesty applications of Mr Coetzee and the other commanders and the other operatives is that Vlakplaas had a double agenda.  It's official purpose was these arrests, but that hardly ever happened, or that considering the amount of times that that was actually effectively done and considering what was spent on Vlakplaas, no reasonable person would not have asked, but what is actually going on at Vlakplaas? It's just to lay the basis that, that for instance the budget had to be motivated at a very high level.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think that what I'm saying and I don't want to rule at this stage, but I just want to indicate my inclination, is that I can quite see, in fact I could quite perceive that that was the nature of what you were laying the basis for, but in the time constraints that we have and given the fact that we usually constrain counsel to be brief and to be limited in their cross examination, I think if you put ...(intervention)

MR JANSEN: Can I go on to my next point Mr Chairman then maybe I can just leave that for another day?

CHAIRPERSON: Well as long as your point is going to be that you are going to put your versions that you want to put to this particular witness.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  Mr Schoon, what was regarded in C1 and at Vlakplaas as covert operations?

UNKNOWN: Covert operations would be cross-border operations and clandestine operations where people were tracked in various areas.

MR JANSEN: Trying to track infiltrators in various parts of the country?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Would you say that everything Vlakplaas did could be regarded as covert operations?

UNKNOWN: Not necessarily.

MR JANSEN: If the illegal actions and the tracking of persons can be categorised as covert nothing Vlakplaas did was not covert?

UNKNOWN: Some of these people gave evidence during court cases or during trials.

MR JANSEN: I wish to put it to you that covert operations referred more often to illegal than legal operations.

UNKNOWN: I wish to differ from you Sir.

MR JANSEN: But at least one can accept that all illegal operations would then be described as covert?

UNKNOWN: I did not say that illegal operations were initiated at Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: Well at least cross=border operations were illegal?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: What were the rules for covert operations, where would authorisation come from?

UNKNOWN: Authorisation had to come from headquarters.

MR JANSEN: Would that involve you?

UNKNOWN: It had to come through me.

MR JANSEN: Would you use your discretion whether you would approve it yourself or would you consult your superiors?

UNKNOWN: As a general rule I got clearance from the next senior person or from the commanding officer.

MR JANSEN: That would be the head of security branch itself?

UNKNOWN: That is so.

MR JANSEN: It is so that the people at Vlakplaas used the people from the technical division for their operations. Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: No they use them very seldom.

MR JANSEN: Let's just put it that from time to time the services from the technical department were used.  Would that include operations?

UNKNOWN: That's possible.

MR JANSEN: What was discussed on the level of sections?  Let's first establish, the technical department was called D3, would you agree to that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR JANSEN: If officers from C wanted support from officers at D, one would assume that it would be discussed during a meeting of the heads of sections?

UNKNOWN: I assume so.

MR JANSEN: Was there ever a discussion by heads of sections that the technical section could be used for covert operations?

UNKNOWN: Please name an example?