Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps this would be a convenient stage at which to take the tea adjournment.  I see it's quarter past eleven.  We'll take a short tea adjournment.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
ERNEST LEKOTE PULE

MR DEHAL: (cont.)
	Will you please tell this Committee how a car bomb is made?

JUDGE PILLAY: How relevant is that Mr Dehal?  You run the risk of doing your client a dis-service.  Don't we have all this evidence already from Mr Ismail?

MR DEHAL: Sorry Judge, my client was also talking to me at the time.

JUDGE PILLAY: I'm just suggesting, I'm not saying you must stop, but I'm pointing out to you that you have all these answers, you run the risk of doing your client a dis-service by getting a wrong answer.

MR DEHAL: I accept that.  I have no further questions.  Thank you.  I'm indebted to you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kooverjee, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MS KOOVERJEE: None, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS KOOVERJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, would you like to put some questions to the applicant?

MR RICHARD: I believe I do, thank you, Chair.

MR RICHARD: Mr Pule, my first question is, how many code names did you have, did you have one or more?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I had many code names and that would depend on the place where I am at that particular time.

MR RICHARD: Now you've already, in answer to one of Mr Dehal's questions, indicated that one of them was Oupa, is that correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Where you ever called Chris?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Chris was my fellow comrade.  He used to work with me.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, were you ever called Chris, as a code name?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: No, I was never called that way.

MR RICHARD: So that means where I read in here the name Chris, there is no possibility of confusion?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That would be a mistake.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, Victor, whose code name was Victor?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That was Mnisi's code name.

MR RICHARD: And by the same token, Mr Mnisi never, for the sake of confusion or misleading people, used the name Oupa or Chris?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: As far as I remember, no.

MR RICHARD: So that means, there's only one other code name that I need to clarify here.  Who was Tommy, Tommy Masinga?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That was Chris.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that's the next question.  Who was Chris?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: His real name was Lester Dumakude.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I'm sorry, I know that code names were meant to do exactly this. I just have to be careful.  So that means where I read Tommy or Chris, they always mean Mr Dumakude?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: When there is reference to Chris and to Tommy Masinga, that refers to Lester Dumakude.

MR RICHARD: And also when I read in this context here, Oupa, were there any other Oupas?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: In my unit I was the only person referred to as Oupa.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now we go back to Annexure B1.  On the 16th of June 1976 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That would be B4, I think.

MR RICHARD: B4, paragraph 5.  On the 16th of June 1976, where exactly were you, can you recall?  Chair, I haven't heard an answer.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't either.  The question, Mr Pule, was where were you on the 16th of June 1976?  Can you remember?  If so can you tell us please?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do remember, I was in Soweto that day.

MR RICHARD: Where in Soweto and what were you doing that day?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: On the day of the 16th June 1976, I participated in the demonstrations launched by the students.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, could I just interrupt for a moment?  It's got nothing to do with my learned friend's questions.  Apparently there's a problem with the head phones again, could we try another set of head phones?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, Mr Berger.  Sometimes it's the connection into this little box that's faulty and there must also preferably be a clear run from these little lights to the machine there, that makes it clearer.  Yes, the last answer, Mr Richard, was that he participated in the demonstrations that took place in Soweto on the 16th of June.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  That's correct, that is what I heard.  Now what do you mean by participated?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, is this really relevant to any inquiry that this Committee is seized with?

MR RICHARD: It's relevant in the sense that, with regard to some matters, the witness has a less than clear recollection, but the 16th of June was a particularly noteworthy date in history and if he can remember what he did on the 16th if may be of some value in argument later, when I've finished the line of questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as long as we don't have to find out what he did every minute of the whole day of the 16th and be here for 24 hours listening to it.  I think the question, Mr Pule is, how did you participate in those demonstrations that took place?  What sort of role did you play?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I was a member of the SRC at school, so we had already met before that day.  In our meeting we discussed how we would help the young kids at primary in Pefene.  They were demonstrating against the education that was rendered in Afrikaans and they were against that and they were also objecting to the beatings by the police.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now that resulted in you going into exile that August and you've already outlined your career, first in Swaziland, via the USSR to Botswana.  Now when did you return from exile?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I returned from exile in September 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's incorrect.

MR DEHAL: He said September the 1st, 1991.

MR RICHARD: I confirm that's also what I heard.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I returned from exile in September 1991.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  That was your first answer, for the sake of clarity.  Now during that period between August 1996 and September 1991...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think you mean 1976.

MR RICHARD: 1976, correct, did you ever cross the border back into the Republic of South Africa for any reason or at any time?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I would cross the border, more especially when I was helping the soldiers who were coming into the country.

MR RICHARD: And once you had crossed into the Republic, were you ever part of any action or operation, other than helping the soldiers get back into either Swaziland or Botswana, as the case might have been?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Can you explain that question further?

MR RICHARD: My question is, from your evidence so far, we understand that you recruited people, you trained people and now we hear that you crossed into the South African Republic and your statement was, to help soldiers returning.  Is that all you ever did while in South Africa, during that period between August 1976 and September 1991, while in South Africa?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: If I understand your question well, my coming to South Africa, that was when I was helping the soldiers who were crossing into the country and then I would return back.  Sometimes it would happen that I also come into the country for a particular mission.

MR RICHARD: Now, what were those missions?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: For example, the attack in Braklaagte, in North West.

MR RICHARD: Was anyone injured in the Braklaagte attack?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the Braklaagte attack is the subject of another incident, which is not before this Committee and I submit the details of that attack are not relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there is reference made to it in the application form in which the witness says he's not sure whether people were injured, but he learned from reports later that in fact people were killed.

MR RICHARD: Nothing turns on it, I will without conceding the point proceed.  Now ...(indistinct)

JUDGE PILLAY: Why was the question then asked, if nothing turns on it?