Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR LAX: The only one he says he got instructions from is Brig Dengana and that's in the line after he names the list of names.  "I was a constable and getting instructions from Brig Dengana."

MR MADIKIZELA: As the Committee pleases.
	If you can be specific, Mr Siqhola, Mr Dengana denies having personally instructed you.  He instructs me that there was a chain of command what's in the security branch.  He wouldn't have dealt with you directly, what do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That chain of command ultimately leads to the foot soldier so he is agreeing with what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you for instance got an instruction from - I'm just using a name, let's say Lt Myeki.  If Lt Myeki
came to you and said "look, go and arrest X who is staying at the rooms next to the Savoy", would you then say "okay, lieutenant, from whom did this instruction come?" then he would say "Okay, it came from the branch commander."  Then would you go to the branch commander and say "well, from whom did the instruction come?" and establish that it came from one of the generals?  Or what was the position?  Why do you assume that all the instructions you got came from the highest level?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I would like to explain to the Committee the way we used to operate.  If you got information you would write down the information that you got and you write down and send it to the branch commander.  The branch commander would make a covering minute and then he would send that information to the head office, that is Bothastal and then Bothastal would send instructions to the branch commander of whether to continue to investigate this information.  The branch commander would open a sub-file and he will write down the instructions.  Maybe he would say "Constable Siqhola, attend to this in that file".  That is the way you used to operate.  All the instructions were written, some of them were verbal instructions.  I think I have answered your question, Sir.

MR MADIKIZELA: Let's go to Col Jekem whom you say was also station at Norwood.  My instructions are to deny that he was ever stationed at Norwood and that during 1984.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It is true that he arrived when I was already there, he did not arrive in 1984 when I arrived.

MR MADIKIZELA: We are talking about 1984, you said whilst you were stationed at Norwood in 1984 also present at Norwood, you have a list of people in that paragraph.  My instructions are to specifically deny that Jekem, Col Jekem, in 1984 was stationed at Norwood.  What do you say to that?

MR LAX: He just said that Jekem came after he got there in 1984.  Maybe ask him when Jekem came, that might be more helpful.  When did Jekem arrive at Norwood, can you remember?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I can't remember but he got there when this torture started because the torture started in 1986, because all this time we were using the helicopters and other methods of the assault so we started from 1986 to use the canvas bag.  So he got there between 1986, 1987 or 1988, in that period as branch commander.

MR LAX: Sorry, are your instructions that Jekem never was based at Norwood?

MR MADIKIZELA: No, my instructions are that in 1984 Jekem was at the head office.

MR LAX: Yes but when did he arrive at Norwood?

MR MADIKIZELA: According to my instructions he never was stationed at Norwood.

MR LAX: Never ever?

MR MADIKIZELA: Yes.

MR LAX: Well then that's what you should put to this man?

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions, Mr Siqhola, that Jekem was never stationed at Norwood during the period 1984 and 1987, specifically?

MR LAX: No, no, you see between 1984 and 19 - you see if you say never that means never.  Either he was - if he was stationed there then he was stationed there during a certain period.

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are clear to the effect that he was never stationed at Norwood.  Let me put them clear.

MR LAX: Okay, at any time?

MR MADIKIZELA: At any time.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Col Jekem was my branch commander in Norwood from Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at this stage, sorry Mr Madikizela, we'll take a five minute adjournment.  I'd just like to see the legal representatives as well.  Once you've finished taking your instructions from your client just to continue, to work out more or less the continued progress of this hearing because I received some message about the flights tomorrow.  My two panel members have to be elsewhere on Thursday with another part heard matter and I'm not sure the flights are.  So we'll take a five minute adjournment at this stage and then if you could please come to see us in the chambers.  But get your instructions first, Mr Madikizela.  We'll just take a short five minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Siqhola, I remind you again that you're still under your former oath?  Mr Madikizela?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

MR MADIKIZELA: (cont)
	As the Committee pleases, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Siqhola, I've taken instructions on the issue regarding Col Jekem.  My instructions are to the effect that during 1984 to 1986 Colonel Jekem was not stationed at Norwood.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That's what I said.

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are that during the period 1984 and 1986 Colonel Jekem was stationed at the head office at Bothastal?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said Colonel Jekem came towards the end of 1986 up to 1998, that's what I said, up to 1998.

CHAIRPERSON: '88.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: 1988, I beg your pardon.  It was the period of three years.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed further that during the period 1986 to 1990 Colonel Jekem was stationed at Port St Johns, not at Norwood.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Are you talking about 1980?

MR MADIKIZELA: 1986 to 1990 he was stationed at Port St Johns.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What I'm saying is that he was my branch commander in Norwood in the period of the three years that I had mentioned.

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are ...(intervention)

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I do have a proof of that.

MR MADIKIZELA: Answer me first, what is the period you're talking about.  Is this the period outside 1980 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He mentioned the period - correct me if I'm wrong Mr Siqhola, he said late 1986 to 1989.  Is that the period you're talking about?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: From 1986 to 1989.  During those three years from towards the end of 1986 right up to 1988, 1989 he was there after Col Sovomba in your branch.  Col Sovomba is the one who was present during the torture of these victims.  He was a branch commander of the time when the method of canvas bag and the others were used.  When he left the branch he was succeeded by Colonel Jekem.

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are that Colonel Jekem was the branch commander at Norwood during the period 1990 to 1991, what do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I cannot support that or I attest to that.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that during the incidents that occurred at Willowvale, Col Jekem was in Port St Johns not in Umtata, not in Norwood?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Are you talking about the Willowvale incident?  Yes he is telling the truth.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed by Brig Dengana who was the branch commander when you joined the Norwood branch that he did not at any stage give you instructions to torture and ill-treat people?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He would be the first person to assault people, he had a sjambok.