Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  I just want 1 last comment.  The comment is that in your remarks you're actually saying that only persons of our region with integrity were the courts of law.  The Magistrates.
MR CARD?: No, no, I didn't say the only people, Mr Chairman, I said there's one group of people that were, you, you couldn't go against their integrity and that was the courts of law.

REV XUNDU: In our experience with the police we have come across a number of cases in which a person is roughed up in jail and them he is taken to a Magistrate in the afternoon to give evidence because he must appear before a Magistrate  within so many hours and as a person appears before the Magistrate,  as he goes there, he's going with 2 security police who will say to him, excuse my language.  You tell the Magistrate that we have neuked you up, jy sal kak, because you're going to come up, you're going to come back to us.  There are several people who, who would testify to that.  The Magistrate would look at you and he sees that you have a blue eye and he doesn't remonstrate the police about that but  I want to say that we have had Magistrates also who have not been, who have not had any sense of integrity when it came to Blacks because I think they were in the same war.  In a White/Black war.  Now I would like to make that comment.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, unfortunately I, I'm not, I haven't been sitting on a Commission to hear all these stories but I can tell you from my experience with a magistrate and the Judges, there was never anything like that.  I had the highest regard for the magistrates and the judges and let me say that in the times that I had dealings with Magistrates, in fact I thought, on a number of occasions, there should have been guilty.  Certain people should have been found guilty and they were actually found not guilty.  I thought that, as far as I was concerned, justice was one of the departments that you couldn't point a finger at and I might be wrong, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You are raising ...  Are you finished ?

REV XUNDU: : No.  I'm just wanting to say that the facts that I raised before the Commission and asking you, are facts which have a proven record too and so there is a conflict in people's perceptions about Magistrates ... (interrupted)
MR  CARD?: I put up my hands Mr Chair, I surrender on that one.

REV XUNDU: Thank you very much.  (Laughs)

CHAIRPERSON: June Crichton.

JUNE CRICHTON: Just a short question, Mr Card?.  In Paragraph 7 of your Affidavit, you speak about another team of men who were given the task of investigating the King William's Town Police Station attack.  Two parts to my question.  The first one.  Did you know who they were at all ?
MR CARD?: No, I know that Hattingh was amongst them, but I don't know who, I can't remember who that team was, but I know that there was, I was dealing with a, with a, with  a,  that  very  big  issue in  East London  where we finally  picked  up,  within  a few
months we picked up over 300 well, 300 people, well about 300 people, so I was working 
months we picked up over 300 well, 300 people, well about 300 people, so I was working 
there all the time.  I had no idea who was involved here, but I do know that Gert Hattingh was one of those who did work here.

JUNE CRICHTON: And the second part of the question is just to ask you, who was it who was actually directing the operations in terms of  you being kept in East London, others being sent to East London.  Who was ...
MR CARD?: You mean to King?

JUNE CRICHTON: Yes.
MR CARD?: As far as I know, I don't know who dealt with that, who was in charge, but I was told on the night of the 8th, that I would be taking over the investigation of the East London, you know the East London case and I don't know who gave the instruction for the other areas, but my local police officer, the one who I said is dead now.  He instructed that I take over that investigation and bring it to a conclusion.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Card, just one last question from me.  We can spend the whole day raising questions with you and soliciting your opinions on a number of issues, but your case, as you are perhaps now aware, has become one of the more curious cases, especially in our region for this Commission.  The key question is, who is Donald Card?, what is the truth about that.  There is the picture of, on one hand there is the picture of Donald Card?, the hero, a man who lays his life on the line, sacrificing all in order to take that fateful step of trying, of assisting Donald Wood into exile.  Donald Card? who we have to respect, to admire, to salute for tremendous courage.
 Then there is on the other hand this other  picture  of Donald Card?, if you  can  excuse my words..., Donald Card?, the monster who terrorized freedom fighters in this area.  Old peasant men who were trying to make a statement about the need for democracy in our country.  How they were terrorized and placed under terrible conditions by that Donald Card?.  The key question is who is the Donald Card? before us and as a Commission we have to come to an answer, one way or the other, on that matter.  I've already informed you in my letter  to you that it's not only Mr Yoyo, it's not only these two gentlemen, that there are several other matters which have not come for public hearing, which have cited your name, but I hope you remember the letter that I sent you in that regard.
MR CARD?: Yes.  Mr Chairman, I'm still waiting for the copies of those letters too.  Mr Chairman, can I say that it's Donald Card?, the realist, Donald Card? and I, in my original statement you will see that I,  I served in the police force and to-day, Mr Chairman, if policemen don't serve the Government that's in power, then you have no Government, you have a problem and I at that stage, not that I was backing the National Government,  I was a policeman.  You must realize, Mr Chairman, it was shortly after the war, 1946, my father was poor.  I couldn't go to University, I had to go and look for a job.  If I wasn't a returned soldier, I didn't get a job.  I ended up in the police force and I decided I would make a success of the police force, which I did, and Mr Chairman, I stuck to my guns.  The law of the country was the law, but then as I became more mature ... (interrupted).  I want to tell you who Donald Card?....

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you at that stage ?
MR CARD?: I beg your pardon ?

CHAIRPERSON: I want to interrupt you at this stage, that you are describing.  Did you perhaps  in  retrospect,  look  back  into that period  and find  that in  your zeal to make  a
success of yourself as a policeman, you may have, in the process of that, actually have abused other people's human rights.  Is that possible ?   
MR CARD?: No,  Mr Chairman, I don't believe I did.  I believe I operated within the laws at the time.