Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

MR WEBSTER: Clearly?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I remember, however, I want to make a point here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The shooting, Col Botha's shooting, was definitely from our position and our information of armed men in that car, that shot we presumed, we didn't know it was Botha, we presumed those people were about to commence, or had commenced fire.

MR WEBSTER: I see.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is what happened there.  Thereafter Lembede opened fire.  When he opened fire, I opened the sliding door shortly after that and I commenced to open fire on the people inside that motor vehicle.  That's what was happening there.

MR WEBSTER: You didn't care to check whether there was any firing coming from the vehicle, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Webster, I presume you've been in gunfights, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I doubt that.

MR WEBSTER: Well, I've probably been under worse firing, not gunfire, but under worse firing than that, intellectually speaking, but I'm not the person that is testifying.  I will proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you saying, Mr Wasserman, you were going to say that he may have been under gunfire, so what was the point you were trying to make, Mr Wasserman?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Webster was asking me if we bothered to check.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not sure how we check that you are under gunfire, but they are chaotic, Mr Chairman, not one gunfight is orderly in real life and as soon as two parties were firing, I entered the gunfight ... as well.  There was no time to check and identify if rifles were up and what rifles they were.  We were also scared, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway.  The impression I get from your evidence is that when you heard the first shot go off, although on the evidence it is Mr Botha who said that he fired that first shot and which you confirmed, at that time you were under the impression that the firing came from the suspect vehicle?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's very definite, yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But then you didn't have an opportunity to examine where the fire came from because all this happened very quickly.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You weren't able to really check.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: The hypothesis that's just been put by the Chairman to you, if that is in fact the correct interpretation, why then under cross-examination not so long ago, did you say that you heard firing, the first firing that you heard came from Botha's vehicle.  Why did you say that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Because that's the evidence I've heard.

MR WEBSTER: That's the evidence you heard?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I heard it yesterday.

MR WEBSTER: So you are tailoring your evidence to evidence as you are sitting and hearing it being adduced here?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not at all.

MR WEBSTER: So why did you then adopt something that is not your evidence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We ascertained that Col Botha started the firing and that reacted over to us.  We've ascertained that.

MR WEBSTER: You see, Mr Wasserman, when you said the first person to start firing was Botha, you said the basis fro your saying that the first person to start firing was Botha was because as you've said, you heard the shots coming from his vehicle.  Do you remember saying that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I don't.

MR WEBSTER: You don't remember saying that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: But I do recall where the shots came from and the two vehicles were there next to each other.

MR WEBSTER: Now I want to put it to you that you just grabbed onto the hypothesis by the Chairperson because you think it's a life line, taking you out of what you have said regarding who fired first and how you determined who was firing first, but the record will show that you were in no doubt, not because of what you heard but because of what you alleged to have heard on that day.  What's your response?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, your interpretation is the correct one.

MR WEBSTER: Did anybody give you an order to fire?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Did anybody give you an order to kill the four occupants of the vehicle?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Why did you then lie and say Col Taylor gave you that order?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: When did I say that?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, really.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just wait, is that the record?

MR VISSER: My learned friend tells the witness that he's lying based on no evidence at all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Give him a chance.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, I have a document here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: If Mr Visser will open to page 25.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what document?

MR WEBSTER: Of the bundle of the applications by Steyn, Wasserman and Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Paragraph 11 (b)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, page 25.

MR WEBSTER: It starts at 11 (a).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Carry on.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman with respect, where does it say here that Botha and Taylor ordered him to shoot?  That's the question.  And he says to this witness he's lying because he says Botha and Taylor did not order him to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it say in this paragraph, Mr Webster?

MR WEBSTER: "Daad/Dade, Versuim/Versuime", it goes on and there it says
"If so, mention the particulars, approval and the offence, the date of the offence(if known) and the name and address of the persons who gave such orders or gave such approval."
		"I believed, based on reasonable grounds that I performed these deeds within the course and scope of my express or tacit, or implied authority as a member of the South African Police.  Col Taylor, Hillcrest, Durban..."

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, I was still speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Let the witness explain that.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, please just give me one moment to point out the obvious to you.  That doesn't even refer to this incident.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, with respect, Mr Wasserman is no idiot and the interpretation that's going to come out is the answer which  Mr Wasserman is going to stick to.  Let the witness answer for himself, please Mr Chairman, you've made that order, thank you.  I'll abide by the order.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just, just please.

MR VISSER: May I be allowed, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Just, please, just hold on.  You will have ample time to re-examine.

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, it is also my obligation to stop unfortunate ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That is my duty to see to it.

MR VISSER: May I just point out to you...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I think that we'll save time.  Just let Mr Wasserman explain what he said there, that's all.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just point...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct).

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, except, may I just point to page 29 of that bundle, that is where the answers are relating to this incident which you will find at pages 27 and 28.

CHAIRPERSON: Let Mr Wasserman then answer.  Mr Wasserman, have you got this page before you?  Page 25, paragraph 11 (b).  This seems to be your answer to the application for amnesty and paragraph 11 (a) and (b).  Will you kindly look at it.  Take your time, read it.  Have you found it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I've found it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is the bundle of the papers.

MR VISSER: Just switch on your microphone.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that applies to another incident which I applied for amnesty, it is not the Quarry Road Incident.  I think Mr Webster has got the wrong bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster, is that the answer?

MR WEBSTER: Let's go to page 29.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are we on page 29?