Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: I just want to be careful not to be misleading as far as the witness is concerned.  Frankly I don't understand what the problem is, we are certainly at cross purposes, I'm not quite sure.  Let me make it as simple as possible.  You told us that Mbulelo told you in 1988, after February 1988 not to visit him any more or any longer in Roma, is that correct?

MS NGONO: That is not true.

MR VISSER: Well then would you please explain to us what that evidence of yours means?  Did you receive an instruction not to visit him any longer in Roma after February 1988, or didn't you?

MS NGONO: In 1987, from 1987 up to 1988, there was this raid in Lesotho where the helicopters were always surveiling the place and then they told me not to visit them, but Mbulelo disappeared in September, I did not see him during that period.

MR VISSER: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that's what counsel asked you.  You said in September he disappeared and reappeared in 1988 and you visited him regularly thereafter.  Somewhere, we don't now when, in 1988 he said you should not visit them again because the situation was bad.  You see, it's after the return from 1987, September, when he left, he came back, you saw him in February 1988 and you visited him and at some stage he told you:  "Don't visit us any more, the situation is bad", that's where you are asked about.  Just put that out of your mind.  He says, in 1988 after February, when Mbulelo reappeared in Lesotho, you visited him again and there he told you that:  "Do not come again, do not visit us", I don't know who is the us, "the situation is bad".  Do you follow what I'm trying to explain to you?

MS NGONO: Yes, I understand that.  The problem with Mr Visser is that I was no longer visiting him, but Mbulelo came to me in February after his reappearance.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he's got no problem, he's merely asking you questions.  Don't take it that he's got a problem, we just want to clarify certain things which are not clear to him, so don't take it as a problem.  You are under my protection.  If he can come with something which is not right, I'll protect you and Mr Malindi too, he's there, so you've got double protection, so don't worry, just answer what he's asking you.  Okay?

MR VISSER: Let's try again. Let me start off by saying, Ms Ngono, that I have an understanding that is difficult to remember what happened 13 years ago and I have sympathy with a person that tells me that he can't remember finer detail and dates etc., I am not criticising you, if there are things that you can't remember.  Do you understand that?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: You see the problem which I have here, which I don't understand, is I have a document in front of me which is supposed to be a statement which you made, do you understand that?

MR LAX: Sorry, if you nod your head...

MS NGONO: Yes, I understand.

MR VISSER: And that document is in conflict in some respects with what you told us today, do you understand that?

MS NGONO: Yes, I understand that.

MR VISSER: What I'm trying to do is to give you an opportunity to explain what the true situation was, if you can remember.  Do you understand that?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Will you please tell us if there's something that I ask you which you can't remember?  Will you do that?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Fine.  This request by Mbulelo that you must not visit them in Roma any longer, could he have given you that request before he left in September, 1987?  I'll tell you why I ask you that, so that you understand, it's because if your answer to that is yes, then your paragraph 7 is also correct, then it's not wrong, that's why I'm asking you that question.

MS NGONO: No.

MR VISSER: So your no, does that mean it was not before September, but it was after he had left in September 1987 that he requested you not to visit them any longer?  How certain are you - let me put it this way, I see that you're confused.  How certain are you that the request was made to you in 1988 and not in 1987, not to visit them any longer in Roma?

MS NGONO: It is solely because I'm the one who was told.

MR VISSER: Is that the best answer you've got?  Alright, let's go on.

MR LAX: Sorry, she hasn't really answered your question.

MR VISSER: I'm asking her whether that's the best answer she's got because I don't understand the answer.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, the answer may not have been adequate, but the answer was:  "Because it was said to me, that's why I remember it."  I don't know if that was translated, I was listening to the Xhosa.

MR LAX: That's why I remember it wasn't translated, but anyway ...

MR VISSER: Perhaps we can just let the ritual of the bell tolling go past before we go on Chairperson.  I don't know whether I didn't count all the tolls this time, but it went very quickly this morning, it seems.  The question is this.  I'm going to put it to you again.  How certain are you that the request and you know which request I'm talking about, was made to you in 1988 and not in 1987?

MS NGONO: It is because before his disappearance in September, I used to see him frequently, there was no problem.

MR VISSER: Are you, as you are sitting here today, convinced that you saw Mbulelo Ngono in Lesotho, alive and well, in February 1988?  Is that your evidence?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: He - was it at that time that he told you that he had a narrow escape?

MS NGONO: Yes, that was during that period.

MR VISSER: Do you know of an incident where he was involved at a road block in Lesotho where he was shot at, fired upon?

MS NGONO: I heard so.

MR VISSER: Do you think that's what he was referring to?

MS NGONO: No.

MR VISSER: Do you have any idea what he was referring to?

MS NGONO: No, I have no idea.

MR VISSER: But the fact is that things were in your words, or as it was translated, were tight in Lesotho for members of MK at the time, isn't that correct?

MS NGONO: Yes, I said so.

MR VISSER: Was that because the Lesotho police and the Lesotho Defence Force were weeding out the MK members in Lesotho?  Were looking for them to export them - deport them?

MS NGONO: I do not think they were trying to deport them.

MR VISSER: Well, Ms Ngono, with great respect, you were friendly with members of MK such as Mpilo and your brother.  Do you really want to tell us that you don't know that supporters or refugees, supporters of the ANC and refugees from South Africa were not deported from Lesotho after December 1986?  Is that what you're telling us?

MS NGONO: I do not understand what you are saying.

MR VISSER: You don't know of members of MK that were deported from Lesotho in 1987 when you were there?

MS NGONO: Untrained members.

MR VISSER: Pardon?

MS NGONO: Untrained members.  Perhaps that was referring to untrained members.

MR VISSER: Well, let's not confuse the issue.  Do you know of any supporters of the ANC who were deported, and I'm not asking you whether you know the people, I want to know whether you know of the fact that ANC supporters were deported from Lesotho in 1987?  Do you or don't you?

MS NGONO: I never heard such.

MR VISSER: Never heard about it?  Okay, never heard about it.  Do you know that the Lesotho police arrested ANC supporters in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: Yes, I know that.

MR VISSER: And what did they then do with them?

MS NGONO: What I know of the people that I saw being arrested, they were later released.

MR VISSER: And there was a military government in Lesotho in 1987, I was just wondering whether I was correct with my dates, but it is confirmed, it was 86, 87 until the end of 1988 thereabouts.  I think it's a fair question.  There was a military government in Lesotho in 1987, isn't that correct?  Do you know that?

MS NGONO: I know nothing about those governments.