Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: Now did you tell Mongezi, to your knowledge, about Ntelesi?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still on the affidavit?

MR LOWIES: That's correct.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did tell Mongezi about the Ntelesi.

MR LOWIES: What did you say to him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mongezi asked me as to what we drank when we left the hostel to go and attack the people at Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Yes and then?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We proceeded to Boipatong where we met the police.  That is where we attacked people.  That is what I told him.

MR LOWIES: Did you tell anybody else but Ngedezi about the Ntelezi? - Mongezi.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.  I am not sure whether I did mention this to other people.

MR LOWIES: Do you know the difference between a Hippo and a police Casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know the difference.  I know the difference.

MR LOWIES: What is a Hippo?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Hippo is the one with four wheels, the one that looks like a pig, that is what we call it, and the occupants can actually be seen through the roof and the sides.

MR LOWIES: And the Casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: A Casspir is something that looks like a bus, but it's a little wider and it has a door on the side.

MR LOWIES: Now to your knowledge, do the police use Hippos and Casspirs or only one of the two?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They used Casspirs, not Hippos.

MR LOWIES: So who used the Hippos?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did not see Hippos.  The one thing that I saw personally were the Casspirs.  Those are the ones that we used on entering Boipatong.  They were actually leading the IFP followers on entering Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: There was evidence regarding a suitcase and the suitcase was described as a specific army vehicle, do you know what a suitcase is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The suitcase one I think is the one that is so high and such that you can actually see the soldiers appearing or soldiers' heads appearing through the roof.

MR LOWIES: It's not the same as a Hippo?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  No, the Hippo is something wide.

MR LOWIES: On the night of the attack, at any time, and I repeat, at any time, did you see a suitcase?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see that.  I did not see soldiers at all because soldiers would not have allowed us to continue attacking people and killing people at Boipatong.  I don't want to tell a lie, I did not see soldiers.

MR LOWIES: No, but I'm talking about vehicles.  Did you see a suitcase, yes or no?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see that.

MR LOWIES: Did you see a Hippo on the night of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the one thing that I saw were the Casspirs, the ones that we were using.

MR LOWIES: So you never saw Hippos or suitcases?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: You see, in your statement you stated that Shaka of the Security Branch was in a Hippo on the night of the attack.  This is then obviously a lie.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That's a mistake, I spoke about Casspirs.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in fairness to the witness, the first sentence does talk about a police Casspir.  It's not my witness, but I think in fairness to him.

MR LOWIES: I thought I asked the question whether Shaka was in a Hippo.

MR LAX: What Mr Berger is pointing out to you is that if you read the first sentence he says
"We were picked up by a police Casspir driven by a white man"
And then he goes on.  The next sentence referring to Shaka includes that.

MR LOWIES: I thought there was nothing wrong with my question.  I thought maybe there was a slip of the tongue, that's why I'm confused.  Sorry, Chair.  Let me rephrase the question because I am now confused as to precisely what I asked, in the sense that I may have had a slip of the tongue.
	I want to quote the following to you:
"In the Hippo there was Shaka of the Security Branch"
Now here you're talking about a Hippo and you're talking about two things, Shaka is a member of the Security Branch and he's inside a Hippo.  This is not true.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true.  I did not talk about a Hippo, Shaka was inside a Casspir, not a Hippo.  There was no Hippo, there were Casspirs used there.

MR LOWIES: Now were you ever a passenger in the Casspir on the night of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say that.  There were four of these Casspirs.  There was not one Casspir, we had four of them.

MR LOWIES: You see you also go on to say that
"There were 14 or 15 IFP members inside a Hippo"
That is totally wrong.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that's a mistake.  A Hippo is small, it can only accommodate about 10 people, not 15, because you see it has a very big engine.  I think it could have accommodated 10 people.

MR LOWIES: You see then it goes on
"Those that I remember who were in the Hippo were Gatchene ..."
And you mentioned others, I will get to that later.  That is a total lie, according to you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) the opening sentence here clearly says
"When we got out of the hostel we were picked up by a police Casspir driven by a white man"
And then it goes on to say:
"... in the Hippo"
And thereafter he uses the word "Hippo".

MR LOWIES: I don't follow, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you follow it, in the context appears that he's referring to the police Casspir in which ...(inaudible)

MR LAX: If I could help you.  What he is saying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In the context.  Do you see that?

MR LOWIES: No.  Maybe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It begins by saying
"When we got out onto the road we were picked up by a police Casspir ..."
I'm reading at paragraph four:
"... driven by a white man whose name I don't know."
Then it goes on to say:
"In the Hippo there was Shaka of the Security Branch, the white man known to me as Rooikop, who had red hair, Peens and our driver"
Okay?  
"There were 14 or 15 ... inside the Hippo"
So what I'm saying is that in the context it appears that the word "Casspir" and "Hippo" were used ...(indistinct).

MR LOWIES: I see, I missed that.

MS TANZER: Mr Chair, also in fairness to the witness, when he talks about the statement can he say: "the unsigned statement", so that it's clear that it's ...

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned, Mr Nosenga, you got into a police car.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now was Mongezi part of your group of not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Mongezi was not part of it, he doesn't know anything about this.  You asked me who took the statement, I told you it was Mongezi.  Mongezi was not part of this attack.

MR LOWIES: Now who were passengers in your vehicle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that it was, the first one was Induna Gatchene and Dondo, Stikenauw and Themba.  I've forgotten the name of the other one.

MR LOWIES: Now you state here that you killed eight to nine people on that night and probably injured many more.  Page 9, Chairman.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am not sure how many people I shot.  I said there could have been five houses or so that we attacked, but as to the number of people that I shot, no, I cannot say.

MR LOWIES: It would not be correct to say that you killed eight to nine and probably injured many more, that would be completely wrong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am not sure of that.  I know people died.

MR LOWIES: You know people died from being shot by you?  The operative words are; shot by yourself.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did shoot people, but I cannot say how many of them died.  I cannot say exactly as to how many people I killed.

MR LOWIES: Would you say that you did kill people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: And you had an AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.