Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: My beliefs about the traditional doctor is that he is able to help a person who has problems, it can be family problems or sicknesses.  By talking about family problems I refer to, for example, from our beliefs as black people, we know about witches, so the traditional doctor will help him and give him protection.  My belief concerning the witches is that this is the person who is able to do things that other people may not be able to see them.  He will be the only person who sees those things, and such deeds can only be seen by a traditional doctor.

MR RICHARD: And you believe what the traditional doctors tell you and you believe what they say?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Because I grew up under that belief, yes, I do believe what the traditional doctor says because he's able to see what I cannot see.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now sometime early in February, a person called Moses went missing, would you please tell the Committee what the relationship between Moses and you was.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Moses was my brother, but we had different mothers and our fathers were also brothers.  That is why I refer to him as my brother.

MR RICHARD: In other words, if I use the European classification and terminology, he would have been termed a cousin?  Your father's brother's child.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now Moses grew up in the same area as you, did he not?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct, we grew up together in the same village.

MR RICHARD: And did he have any political sympathies, did he support any political party?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Which party did he support?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He was the ANC supporter like myself.

MR RICHARD: Now what did Moses do to actively support the ANC?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: His main involvement I would say, is that when the ANC Youth League was launched at our village, he was one of us.  We were together in fighting for the launching of the Youth League, but we did not have the membership cards, because that was the first time that we have a youth organisation in our area.

MR RICHARD: Now for how long before February '93, did the Youth League organisation of the ANC, exist in your village, Driekop?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: When the ANC Youth League was launched, the ANC already existed, but for a period of not more than five years in our village.

MR RICHARD: So am I correct in drawing the inference that the late Moses was an ANC sympathiser and supporter for some number of years?  And well-known to be that.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now if I understand this correctly and I have my chronology right, is it not correct that on the 15th of February, Moses' body was found and he was dead?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: What I remember is that his corpse was found, but I do not recall the day in which his body was found.

MR RICHARD: Where was his body found?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: His body was found at the mountain next to our village.

MR RICHARD: And in what condition was his body?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The body was already decomposing and it looked as if some of his body parts were missing.

MR RICHARD: Do you have any knowledge of what body parts were missing?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I remember his tongue, his teeth and the skin around his head.  The skull was actually exposed, and on his body he had a knife cut on his chest, but I was not able to see what was removed from his inside, but he had that wound.  It looked like a knife wound on his chest.

MR RICHARD: Was it a deep wound?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now when you saw the body, would you agree that it bore the trademarks of what is called in the popular press, a muti killing?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, that is what I believe.

MR RICHARD: Now how long before had the late Moses gone missing, was it a day, a week, two weeks, do you remember?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He went missing on the 16th of January 1983 - 1993, rather.

MR RICHARD: Was he well at the time he went missing?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, he was still well.

MR RICHARD: Did he suffer from any ailments, any mental imbalance, pains in his side?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, he was a sickly person, but his sickness at that period when it was suspected that it involved the - he was actually bewitched.

MR RICHARD: How do you know that he thought he was bewitched?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: In his family - when he started becoming sick he was living with me, I was taking care of him, and he used to tell me that the people who made him to be ill, he gave me their names actually.  That is how I came to know that he was bewitched.

MR RICHARD: And who did he name as the molois or witch-doctors that were bewitching him?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The first one was Mamoghe Phasha.  The second one is Reisiki Phasha, and Reisibi Mashabela.  The fourth one is Maletswai Phasha.  The fifth one was Mamelele Phasha.  The sixth one was Abraham Madibeng Phasha.

MR RICHARD: I might have misunderstood you, but wasn't there another name, Jan Phasha, or was it one of the people that you've already listed?  Jan Mashyani Phasha.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He did not mention Jan Phasha's name as one of the people who bewitched him, but he was actually exposed by the traditional doctors who were called by the chief.

MR RICHARD: Now amongst those names mentioned, you mentioned the name Abraham Phasha, Abraham Madibeng Phasha, is that not correct?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And there was another name that I would like to put to you, Johannes Mamletswa Phasha.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now was Johannes Phasha also pointed out as a witch or moloi?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Maletswai.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, Maletswai.  Was he also pointed out to be one of the molois?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain that.  Pointed out by who?

MR RICHARD: Who pointed Johannes Maletswai Phasha as a moloi?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He was named by Moses before we went to the traditional doctors.  He was firstly mentioned by Moses, as one of the people who were troubling him.

MR RICHARD: And which of the traditional doctors mentioned his name?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The first doctor is the one who used the mirror, but I forgot his name, and the second one's name is Makwebelani Moloto and Ditoi Ghapola.

MR RICHARD: Now were you present when Abraham Madibeng Phasha died?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: How did he die?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He was stoned to death.

MR RICHARD: How many people stoned him to death?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They were more than 500 people.

MR RICHARD: Now of those 500 people who were present when he was stoned to death, who was the first person to throw a stone?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: If I recall well, the first person to stone him was myself.

MR RICHARD: Now at that time, and as you gave evidence, you were active within the ANC support group as a supporter, there was a cry amongst the youth as to what should be done with impimpis and molois, what was that cry?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The youth were concerned that the witches were killing people who would be future leaders of the ANC, and such people should be killed if it is found that he had done that.

MR RICHARD: Who did the youth believe the witches supported on a political level?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: As youth we believed that the witches supported the people who were against the aspirations of the ANC, that is to fight for freedom.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, who were those people?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I'm referring to people who were against the aspirations of the ANC, like political parties who supported the then government to suppress black people.