Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: We had the book in Port Elizabeth on occasion -  you had a book which is 200 to 300 pages thick of photos - I don't know where it ended but thousands of photos of these exiles, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: The security branch was involved that you reasonably ascertain where a person was, when he left the country, when left Lesotho with the aeroplane etc., is this correct? - this is regarding the Eastern Cape.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Kondile disappeared - I know it goes a bit broader but there are also other people who disappeared without a trace, which resulted in enquiries made in the media etc.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: The standard apology which was offered by you most of the time, was that the person had left the country to join the ANC, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now, the investigation of these allegations.  You are a policeman yourself, what was the impression?  How hard did you try to investigate these allegations?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think I must speak with specific reference to Kondile.  Apart from the fact that they would have requested a report about the circumstances of Kondile's release and the allegations, I have no knowledge of any other investigation.

MR BOOYENS: Did they ever - was any enquiries directed to you where you were asked whether these people infiltrated: "Where is the man, that we can answer the questions", "We have the intelligence network, can you tell us where he is"?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR BOOYENS: So if one looks at attacks - people who were so-called enemies of the then government who were killed and there are a large number of them - I'm not saying that you were involved in all of them, not at all, but was there ever anyone else who would have been interested in eliminating these people - other than the security forces?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I don't believe that.

MR BOOYENS: Did you ever have any enquiries in this regard, in other words, from above - what's going on, who's killing all these people?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, we did not.

MR BOOYENS: I'm now referring to cases in which you were not involved, but one often heard of cases and one read them in the newspapers, what was your impression? Who was responsible for the deaths and disappearance of these people?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: My impressions were that it was either the security force or the defence force.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, South African security forces?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Be it military or police?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr du Plessis, did you have anything personal against Mr Kondile?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Most definitely not.

MR BOOYENS: Your contact with Mr Kondile resulted from the work that you did?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: The decision that Mr Kondile's life had to be ended, did this have anything to do with anything personal?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, not at all.

MR BOOYENS: If it was not for the fact that he was involved in the underground war that was raging and you as well, do you think that it would ever have resulted in his death - that you had planned and taken part in his death?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Definitely not.

MR BOOYENS: As far as you are concerned today - the political struggle has been fought and many people on both sides have died during that political struggle, as far as you are concerned, did you ever act as far as these matters are concerned other than as a security policeman?  Your actions as in the case of Kondile, did this have anything to do with the fact - did it have anything to do anything other than your duty as a security policeman?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR BOOYENS: Do you therefore confirm the contents of the application, together with the additional evidence that you gave?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: There will possibly be allegations - and I wanted to deal with this, that Mr Kondile's car was in Jeffrey's Bay at a certain stage, what is your comment about this?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The vehicle was never there.

MR BOOYENS: You link the death of Mr Kondile to the telexes and the occurrence book entrants of August, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: yes.

MR BOOYENS: According to you, the death of the 10th of August when he was released, when was he killed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The next day, the 11th of August.

MR BOOYENS: Allegations can possibly also be made that - and now I must just be careful because I don't understand these allegations very well, that it is either being said or that it was so, that during interrogation Mr Kondile sustained a brain injury and that as a result of this - in order to prevent a second "Biko" incident, he was killed.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I have no knowledge of this, it was definitely not like this.

MR BOOYENS: As far as your knowledge goes, did Mr Kondile sustain a brain injury?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR BOOYENS: Did you ever fear that he would have a brain injury?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR BOOYENS: Was he killed in order to hide such a brain injury?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR BOOYENS: Was his car ever in Jeffrey's Bay or in the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, as far as I know he was in Bloemfontein - it was in Bloemfontein, that's where I got him and it was never brought down to us.

MR BOOYENS: The allegations regarding assaults which have already been made, you acknowledged that you also assaulted Mr Kondile and that you heard that he had complained that the East London people had assaulted him, is that the sum total of your knowledge of the assaults?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: After you realised that the man had ...[inaudible], did you assault him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did he still work with you and give you information?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: The information that he gave then, was it still correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot think of one case that was not correct.

MR BOOYENS: Would it have served any purpose when you realised that the man was not prepared to co-operate with you, to go further?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, not at all.

MR BOOYENS: The reason why you assaulted him, what was that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: At that stage I believed - if I think back, that as far as I was concerned, it was about DLB's and trained MK's which he alleged in the beginning that he knew nothing about.

MR BOOYENS: In conclusion, you assaulted him to get information out of him, information needed for police investigations?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

ADV DE JAGER: Your initials are?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: H.B., Hermanus Barend Du Plessis.

ADV DE JAGER: And your rank at that stage was - in 1981?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Captain as far as I know.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there a Brigadier Du Plessis at that stage?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Not that I know of.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there not a Brigadier who was a Commanding Officer of the Boarder Police, a H.J. Du Plessis?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's possible, but I cannot recall.  I know that there was a Mr van der Merwe, it could be that there was a Du Plessis but I cannot remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there more than one van Rensburg in Port Elizabeth?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.  I cannot recall the dates but there was a Departmental Commissioner or Divisional Commissioner who was also a van Rensburg, but I don't know what year that was.