Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Delivering fresh produce, Dairybelle, Simba, Willards, coming in doing weekly deliveries, Coca Cola and general reps with all the different food companies that you get.  Some operate on a weekly cycle, others on a fortnightly cycle, others on a monthly cycle, but yes, they were active in the area.  No attack that I'm aware of was ever made on any outsider, white or black.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.
	Mr Mather, my first question will be, I'll start with the era of Matanzima.  Are you saying that there were no Pep Stores, nor Russells, not Ellerines in Transkei, or are you saying that was the case in Sterkspruit?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I'm saying that was the case in Sterkspruit.  Prior to the Transkei independence, I want to just confirm that Ellerines approached us to build for them at that time.  Now I can't remember whether Ellerines were in just slightly before independence or after independence, but chain stores in general were not in Sterkspruit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So will you agree with me that it was not a question of policy of Matanzima that they were not there in Sterkspruit, if they were available in other areas in Transkei?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think it depended on how long ago that they gained entrance, but during the Matanzima regime I know I opened a business and I had to get a black partner because white people were not allowed to get licences, new licences at that time.  So it was very difficult, I don't say impossible, but it was very difficult for an outside white organisation to obtain a business licence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well I will not follow that because I happen to know that these business were there in the Transkei at the time of Matanzima, Pep Stores, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... suggestion is they may have been there before the time, ...(indistinct) remained there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm not disputing Sterkspruit area if he concerns himself with Sterkspruit, but if he talks about other areas, Butterworth, Umtata, I know that they were there during the era of independence.  And also that is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But were they formed after independence?  He is saying they were there during the era of independence, but he said that from the time of independence it was very difficult for any white firm to get a licence under the Matanzima Government.  If you had an existing licence, it remained.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if that's the case then I have no problems with that.  My impression was that they had to leave and then they came back during, those who were there, they came back during the era of Holomisa.

CHAIRPERSON: No he said no new white stores, as I understand the evidence, no new white stores started.  You were not forced to leave, you were encouraged to sell to the Transkei Development Corporation, who paid a fair price for your properties, but the police was to take over from the existing white, but they weren't forced to leave.
	That is what you did say, didn't you?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Now my second point will go to the point of Buyafuti, what was your relationship with Buyafuti, did you have any contact with him or ...?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I had no relationship with Buyafuti whatsoever.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say if you see him you will see him at a distance, you never talked to him?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I tried to avoid whatever contact with Buyafuti.  Naturally, if he came into my business and he wanted to buy something I would sell it to him, but I never had any friendship or business dealings with him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Would I be correct to say that what you are talking about him being anti-white is what you heard from other people, it's not what you personally experienced yourself?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: It's what I heard, yes, I've had no personal experience with him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long was - according to your knowledge, how long was his business partnership with Mr Hatting?  Do you know when it started?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I can't tell you, I would be guessing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct to say that you were surprised that a person you have heard that is anti-white can be in a business partnership with a white person?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Can you just rephrase that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct to say that you were surprised to know that Mr Tsembeye is commonly known as Buyafuti, was in business partnership with a white person?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I don't believe I said surprised, no.  I never made that statement.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, I'm saying that, I'm asking whether you were surprised that a person who is anti-white as Mr Tsembeye, as you have heard about him, that he was a business partner of a white person?

MR LAX: Sorry, you're being asked in essence, would it surprise you, did it surprise in essence that a person like Tsembeye was in a business relationship with a white person?  I'm not saying that you said that.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I don't think that surprised me, but I can't really remember if it surprised me.  I can't answer that question.

ADV SANDI: Yes but, Mr Mather, would such a thing surprise you today?  If a person who is alleged to be a racist and anti-white enters into a business partnership with a white person, wouldn't you find that a bit odd?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: If I have to remember, I think when Mr Hatting first formed the business relationship with Buyafuti, it was quite a considerable time before we started having these political problems.  I think if I have to answer that truthfully, the only way for a white man to basically get into business in Sterkspruit was you'd have to have a partner so no, I don't see anything that I would be surprised because Mr Hatting wanted to open a business and there was his partner that gave him access to business.  So the fact that I know he was racialistic does not necessarily mean that at that time - I find the question very difficult to answer, but I'm trying to ...

CHAIRPERSON: It's not Mr Hatting that we're interested in.  We've heard that if you wanted to get licences or something, you had to get a black partner.  But the question, wasn't it surprising that Mr Buyafuti who disliked whites, as I understand you say, was racist, wanted them out, that he would ever have entered into a partnership with a white man?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think that if you want to make money and you've got a means of making money, which was obviously Mr Tsembeye, he saw Mr Hatting as somebody that will give him financial assistance and a means of making money.  I can't see any other ... but as I said, they made this partnership quite a few years before the political situation of APLA.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Is the Chairperson through?  Can I continue, Chairperson?
	Now my next question will be, when did you become aware that Mr Tsembeye or Buyafuti was anti-white?