Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: What we were told at the ANC headquarters was: "Comrades, you see that people are being killed everywhere, all over.  We are not surprised about this incident that you're relating to us and we were told not to be fools, we should use some transport to and from work."
	That we should also not be careless, we should walk in groups to and from work so as to be able to protect each other and we should find some means to protect ourselves as well as our organisation so that people will not leave ANC to join Inkatha because they were being forced to or they were being scared into joining Inkatha.  	So we decided that as men and as would-be victims we should employ any means possible or available to us to protect ourselves.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did they instruct you to take weapons yourself and go after these people, Inkatha members, to kill them or was this decision taken by yourself?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: The decision to take up arms and to protect ourselves was taken by us as a group of shop stewards who were under attack from the IFP members, as well as other workers who were fearing for their lives.  We took the decision as a group.

ADV STEENKAMP: Then my last question to you, according to the Court record, page 60 - unfortunately it's in Afrikaans, Mr Chairman and that's line 25 to 30, page 60.  There's a remark by the learned Judge.
	I just want to ask you to comment on it.  Do you have that Sir, page 60?  You'll see there line 25 to 30.  	I'll read it into the record for record purposes, Mr Chairman:
"However, in the light of the history to which I referred to and as was explained by Mr Barry, in the complete report that was put out by Graham Simpson it became clear and I made the conclusion that the accused was extremely angry that morning about the death of his friend and that he had no control over himself."
	Now Mr Chairman, this was in the incident of the killing of Mr Shandu and the attempted murder of Mr Ngcobo.
	My question to you is this Sir, was this not the real motive for the killing of Mr Shandu, because you were enraged at the killing of your friend and not as you put it today, that it was some sort of political motivation?  You decided to kill this person because you were very enraged.

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: This is a very clear issue.  My friend was not the first one to be killed, Amos Gamede.  People had been killed before and it was not the first time for me to kill a person.
	We were hunting each down, we were killing each other but they had actually started off so we decided to give them a taste of their own medicine and the only way to do that was to do what they were doing to us.  
	There was no personal vendetta on my part to kill Mr Shandu because my friend had been killed earlier on.  He was not the first one to be killed and Shandu was not the first one to be killed by me either.  
	Even besides that issue or that matter, we had attacked others before and we had been attacked before and that was a resolution that was taken as a group that we should also attack them.  If it was a personal vendetta I would have killed him only and not continued to kill others who were attacking us.  We decided that as a group of shop stewards because we tried to speak to them earlier on, to have some peace talks but they were not co-operative.  That is why we decided that we should also attack them because they were working with us during the day and in the evening they were sending other people or coming to attack us themselves.  The bosses were inside the factory and they were using hostel dwellers to come and attack us.
	When I saw Mduduzi during that day when he had been killed we decided to retaliate there and then.  Even now there is peace, Inkatha and ANC members are working together.  It's just that I was unfortunate to be the one who was arrested and I had to take the brunt for everything that happened there.  But I can point out that there is relative peace at that factory.  This incident helped to quell the violence that was taking place at that factory.
	Had they not seen our guns, that is had the management not seen our guns they would still be killing us, that is why we tried to take the guns into the factory.  Unfortunately one spied on us and told the management that we had some guns that were stashed away within the factory and we asked the management to withdraw the charges against us and the charges were withdrawn but they confiscated the AK47.
	The following day the police arrived to search the place, nothing was found except for the fact that the management had taken that AK47 and given it to the Inkatha members.  I'm showing you that this was not my decision or a personal decision, it was a decision taken as a group to protect ourselves as a group as well as other innocent people and other members of the ANC because we could see that the law was taking sides and it was taking too long to deal with the matter.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp.  Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Kondile, let me maybe ask for more clarity on the question which was asked by Advocate Steenkamp in connection with UWUSA.  Are you saying you don't know anything about UWUSA?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: What I know as I was working at that factory as a shop steward, as workers we were members of FAWU.  I don't know about UWUSA.  I think there were members of UWUSA who were Inkatha members also and they wanted people or the workers to join UWUSA so that it could be a legal union which operated within the firm but it was not operating at that time in the firm itself or at the factory.  I think UWUSA was an Inkatha union.  That is why I say I do not know anything about UWUSA because they never succeeded in forcing people to join UWUSA and it never got to be in the factory itself.

MR SIBANYONI: But as a shop steward during that time, was there any moment where that union as UWUSA was at issue or was discussed?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes, there was a stage where we encountered problems with regard to UWUSA.  As Inkatha members wanted UWUSA to be active with the factory and we decided to join hands as members of the ANC and we had joined FAWU.
	We wanted to stand firm and be members of FAWU because we realised that others were now being threatened into joining UWUSA.  They were defecting and leaving our union, FAWU, and they would say that they want to join UWUSA.  But UWUSA was not operating within the factory but they had been issued cards to join UWUSA in order to get the majority, or they required a number that they wanted for UWUSA to be operative within the factory.  That is all I know.  But UWUSA never succeeded to operate or be active in the factory.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you perhaps know why you were being targeted, in other words the people whose names are mentioned on page 66 and 67, what was the cause of this conflict?