Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR PRETORIUS: : Certain honourable member of the committee is page 3538 as from line eight to approximately line eleven.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Moolman you were already referred to a position in your evidence where you testified that it was difficult for you in the position that you were there on the parapet to shoot at the crowd.  Do you still maintain today that, that is the position?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: When I gave the statement and when I went for the inquest I thought of this but after ascertaining and making sure as to how big is the probability of shooting from where I was, I was then convinced yes there was such a possibility.

MR PRETORIUS: : I wish to point out to you that Mr Neo Potsane testified at page 3575 as from approximately line seven to line 9 during this same inquest and I quote.

MR PRETORIUS: "Alright if he (and that is referring to you now) wanted to fire into a crowd he would have no difficulty as he was in a similar position as you were?

WITNESS:  Yes".

MR PRETORIUS: Do you agree with Mr Potsane?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I did not hear a question there.

MR PRETORIUS: : I put it to you that Mr Potsane during the inquest testified in direct conflict with what you testified the following
"If he (that is referring to you Mr Moolman) wanted to fire into a crowd he would have no difficulty as he was in a similar position as you were..."
 and he replied "Yes".  So he testified that you would have no difficulty if you wanted to fire into the crowd to fire into the crowd.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he said that he did fire into the crowd?

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairman I referred him initially to his evidence at the inquest where he said that it was impossible for him at that stage to hit and injure anybody in the crowd because of the position he was in.  In other words what I am putting to him is that at that stage he was simply not telling the truth .

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are really going to get bogged down with the immense little details here you know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes Mr Pretorius I thought I heard the witness' testimony conceding that after reviewing the whole incident he is now convinced that there was such a possibility.

MR PRETORIUS: : Honourable member of the committee it still remains he had to review this whole incident over and over again before he testified in front of Judge Nugent approximately three years, even longer than three years after the incident.  Before he testified he had to review it all over again.  Now the point is he is changing his evidence as things come along, and it's clear that he is not telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on but I appeal to you to really to concentrate on the essentials, you know the important points. Where the man says he did fire, the next question is whether he fired from one spot or another spot at the end of the day might not be very, very relevant because the man says he did fire.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairman I agree with you but the motives or the reason why he fired is very important and it therefore goes around that.

CHAIRPERSON: No the motive is he felt Shell House was under attack and so he fired.

MR PRETORIUS: : Well we're indicating to the Chairman, we try to indicate to the Chairman and the committee that, that is not the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: That I gathered already from the kind of questions that have been put about what your clients did or did not do.

MR PRETORIUS: : Now Mr Moolman the clients for whom I'm appearing will say that they never intended to attack Shell House and they were never part of a group that attacked Shell House or intended to attack Shell House.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you dispute that when you don't know who his clients were?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is why I dispute that because I did not - I could not identify on that day who of the people he is representing today.

MR PRETORIUS: : They will state further that they merely attended a meeting or a march to attend a meeting to support the Zulu king.

MR LAX: Do you agree with that or don't you?  Are you even able to say that they did or didn't?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I really can't give comment on that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say Mr Moolman whether there was a march that was in support of the Zulu king?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : Thank you Chairperson.  Now finally they will also state that they were fired on without any reason or justification by the guards of Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not required to answer this you are being told that, that is what the objectors are going to say.  You have given us your version you are being told what they are going to say.  Do you understand?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes Chair I understand.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairman the objectors for which Dr Van Wyk appears their position is exactly the same and therefore they are not going to repeat it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Are there going to be any questions put to this witness?

MR DORFLING: Yes Mr Chairman and honourable members of the committee I've got quite a number of questions to put to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well we'll take a short adjournment at this stage and resume in 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to remind you that you are still under oath.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: (s.u.o.)

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair and honourable members of the committee.
	Mr Moolman when you went up to the parapet did you have any specific instructions as to what your role would be on the parapet?  
	Mr Chair it would seem there is no translation I think the witness is waiting for a translation.

MR LAX: He is talking I can see him in the box talking.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I was told that Jakwe will give me instructions as to how to work on that day.

MR DORFLING: : And did you prior to the main shooting incident taking place receive any specific instructions as to what your role should be, or would be rather?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : What were your instructions?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That we will shoot to repel the marchers from gaining access to Shell House.

MR DORFLING: : What would be the nature of the fire that would be emanating from the people on the parapet, would they shoot into the crowd?  Would they be the first line of fire or what would be the position?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: To shoot and repel the people means to shoot at them.

MR DORFLING: : Would the guards on the parapet be a first line of fire or would you in other words commence firing at the crowd or was there a different plan?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean were there particular instructions to him as an individual?

MR DORFLING: : To the people on the parapet in general Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Now the question is not about precisely what were your instructions but are you aware of what the instructions were to all the people that were on the parapet?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not recall specifically we were all together when we were instructed.

MR DORFLING: : Sorry I am not sure I understand your answer.  Are you saying you can't recall all having been present when you were given instructions.  Is that what you are saying?

MR LAX: No he is said we were all together when we got instructions.  That was his answer.

MR DORFLING: : Now what were this specific instructions you were given at the time when you were all together?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That if there is an attack our work will be to repel the attackers, so that they don't gain access to Shell House.

MR DORFLING: : Were you ever instructed that you were to act as a so-called secondary fire that you would in other words by secondary fire distract the attention and the concentration of the marchers?