Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-21

MR YENGENI: In fact what I wanted to do was to be allowed an opportunity to pose a few questions to Mr Siyali, hoping that by doing that, certain things would be put into context.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you do that?  In fact you've heard the testimony in so far as it concerns you, it's a very limited aspect, but please go ahead and deal with the issues that you think might be of assistance.

MR YENGENI: The first question that I want to ask Mr Siyali is, in his testimony he said that the askaris knew Bongani.  Can I confirm that again with him?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR YENGENI: Can I also confirm with him that he indicated that the askaris also knew the Mercedes Benz?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR YENGENI: Can I also confirm with him that he said that the meeting place between the car that they were travelling in was going to be Athlone?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That is correct.

MR YENGENI: Can I also confirm with him that the shooting of Bongani took place, not in Athlone, but somewhere along the N2?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR YENGENI: If the askaris knew Bongani's face and knew the car he was travelling in, if that is correct and David knew Bongani and his car, why was it necessary for him to ask me to point Bongani out?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: You were not asked by me.

MR YENGENI: Now, the next question I want to ask you is, you said that you were not trusted by the boers, but they were able to put you in charge of a person they considered very dangerous, that is myself and to accompany us to Bongani.  How did that happen?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: In this earth there's no one who's dangerous to Patrick Siyali, no matter what that person does or no matter who he is.

MR YENGENI: No, what I'm saying Patrick is that, if you are saying we're not trusted, how come did it happen that you were put in charge of myself and be put in charge of an operation to arrest Bongani, if you're not trusted?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: What I'm not going to answer to is the fact that I was in charge.  I was told to go and guard Mr Yengeni, it's not that I was in charge.  Yes, I was not trusted, but on that specific day Yengeni was already tortured and he was handed over to me, so I had to be with him every time and he was cuffed at the time when he was in the car, so I was not in charge.

MR YENGENI: Now, Mr Siyali also indicated in his testimony that black Security Branch policemen were mainly used by the white Security Force Branch policemen, is that correct?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That is correct.

MR YENGENI: And the question that I wanted to ask following that is, why did you allow yourselves to be used?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I cannot answer that question.  Your question wants me to be out of context, or what are you asking for exactly?

MR YENGENI: My question is meant to understand why you say you were used, whereas you stayed in that environment, you didn't go out, so I then want to understand, you know, why did you remain in a situation, in an environment like that?  Why did you allow askaris to give you order?  Why did you allow the boers to give you orders and do the things that you did?  Why did you allow that?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Which things that I did, before I answer the question?

MR YENGENI: Everything that you have stated in your testimony.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: As I've already said, when you join the Special Branch you are in and when you want to be out, you are signing your death certificate.  When you are in that branch, you are in, except when you do something that would lead them to transfer you to another branch.  I've already explained why I remained there, because I would sign my death certificate if I resigned and you would not be sitting there Mr Tony Yengeni.  The reason why I was there, I was helping our people because you yourself, you wouldn't be there, you wouldn't be sitting there and you know very well what was happening at Culemborg and you know how many askaris would be there on that day when Mr Jonas was arrested.  If I was not there, you would not be sitting there.  You know that very well.

MR YENGENI: I would leave it that way.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Continue with it, don't leave it.

MR YENGENI: I want to leave it there because I can see that you don't want to answer why you remained in those circumstances, because you could see that you were being used against your own people.  It seems as if you are running away from that point.  Do you agree with the fact that the black police were used against their own people?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I agree with that, but I remained in that place, or in that branch and as you are sitting there, you must thank Patrick Siyali, because you wouldn't be there and it is clear that Bongani would not be sitting there, if I had shot at him, at his head, so you must thank me as you are sitting there.  It's not that we were there to oppress black people, we were there to work and after you were tortured, you came to us offices, we helped you to calm you down.  If the court would allow me, you said that within 5 years we would take over South Africa and we were sitting there laughing and indeed, in 1994 it happened, South Africa was under black control.  Isn't that true Mr Yengeni?

MR YENGENI: I do understand exactly what you are saying, but I would like you to be free to say whatever you want to say, not to hold things back because there's something that you want to rectify here, it's not that we want to oppress you or to put you down, but there are things that are to be said, so that we can go forward.  What I want to know is that, do you agree that black police were being used?  What I want to know from you is that, why did you, Patrick, allow that to happen to you?  I want you to be straightforward, to be free and I'm asking that question, not because I want to put you down, I just want your opinion, what was happening in your own mind.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: About what Mr Yengeni?

MR YENGENI: About the fact that you remained there, although seeing that you were being used against your own people?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Mr Yengeni, this was very painful in my mind.  You know that we were together with Mr Bongani for a year and what was happening is that, even if I was tortured or even now, I would still remain in that Branch, but in the case of being at the Special Branch, I remained there so that we can all be liberated.  I was not torturing anybody there, I was helping you people, I was taking you to the hospitals and doing different things for you, that is why I remained there.

MR YENGENI: In other words, you remained there to assist the freedom fighters?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct, Sir and you know how I operated, even though you are not going to reveal that in public.

MR YENGENI: I know how you operated, we were together for a long time and sometimes we would talk about these things when you were guarding me, but now you are here to ask for amnesty and I think that I personally, I don't want you to be defensive.  I want you to be free to say everything, because by doing that, that would help in the reconciliation and there would be unity amongst the people that were oppressed before.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I'm listening.

MR YENGENI: When there were preparations for this hearing today, there are newspapers that reported about this particular hearing, saying that at that particular time, during the 1980's I was working for the police.  Do you agree with that?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I read the newspaper report, but I don't agree with that and I have a reason for disagreeing with that.

MR YENGENI: I can recall that as Bongani said through his lawyer, after 1990 you came to me and we discussed this whole issue and you explained your own position to me and you came to me.  Do you agree with that?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes.