Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: So if the witches were not there the government officials would not have the power to continue with what the people didn't want.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Our aim was that they must no longer be in the government or they must take the government back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that the deceased was a witch or wizard or whatever?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I grew (up) knowing that it is alleged that he was a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you believe that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I used to believe that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you used to, don't you believe in witches any more?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I still believe in it.

ADV DE JAGER: You went there to ask the deceased to leave the vicinity?

ADV DE JAGER: So his eviction and his death was one and the same thing because he was told long ago that he must go, and seeing that he was not going then it was thought it's proper for him to be killed because others who were appointed as witches by then already gone but he remained.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Did you agree with his death in those circumstances?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I agreed that he must die under those circumstances.

ADV DE JAGER: But I want to refer you to paragraph 23 of your affidavit.  You are now telling us that you went there with the intention to kill him, is that right.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes that's right.

ADV DE JAGER: In paragraph 23 you said
"I learned from the group that they were going to the deceased's kraal to force him to leave the area, just like other identified people who had already left."
So you went there with the intention to give him a trekpas and not to kill him, according to what you say here.  Now can you tell us what's the truth?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: The truth is that all those two things were mixed up because the person was told to leave the village and he didn't do that.  And then people decided that maybe he's still going to refuse to go because he was still there.  So what was left for him was for him to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit you say when he was being stoned and burned, you threw stones at him.  Is that true?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew he's going to die then?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your affidavit you say that when you were on your way there the people went there with the intention of telling him to go but somehow that decision changed soon thereafter.  When that decision changed to killing him, did you agree with that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: At that moment there was not time to debate, it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking you if you debated. I'm not asking you if it was a democratic decision.  I'm asking, there was a time that people threw stones at him and doused him with petrol and burnt him.  Did you agree with that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I agreed with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and in fact you participated in that.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I participated.

MR NDOU: That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Now is there anything that you want to say perhaps to the deceased's family?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I have something to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do so.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I am truly asking for forgiveness in terms of what happened because now I realise that it's something which happened which to the members of the family is unacceptable and very painful, and as such I'm saying.  So I'm asking for forgiveness for what happened which is painful to you because it happened during those days and I don't think that it will ever happen again, things of that nature will ever happen and as such I am asking that they forgive me so that I can come back and live with people at home.  I think I will end there.

ADV DE JAGER: But you're still believing in witches.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I still believe.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn't you kill a witch again if you find one?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Could you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: Why wouldn't you kill a witch if you find one?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: It's because the aim in the past was to make the Venda Government to be ungovernable, but now we no longer talk of the Venda Government.  If I go out now I'll be going to the government that I was in need of then to such an extent that I think I will live with no other problem and that the issue of witches which are still existing at this present moment.  I am listening to the radio sometimes, and I  have never heard of a mob which was just like the one we used to have in the past.  Those mobs are no longer there.  It's over, it's a thing of the past, because the aim which was aimed at has happened.
     That is why I think those things are no longer there.  I still believe however that witches are still there but they are no longer targets but they were targets during those days because we were trying to overcome the government or to let the government fall we have start with the roots just like a tree.  If you want a big tree to fall then you have to start with the roots.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was wrong of the witches that time to help the government to stay in power?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes it was very wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: They used to involve themselves in ritual murders and children were killed?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Could you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Witches were somehow involved in ritual murders, correct?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that still the position?  People disappearing, people dying?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Now the people are not being killed ritually like in the past, because in the past it was the ministers of the former government who were committing ritual murders, but now we are no longer talking about the ministers of the Venda Government.  As such they no longer have powers.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget about the ministers, I'm not talking about those kind of politics.  I'm asking are ritual murders for one or other reason still being committed today?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Nowadays I'm not sure since it's long that I have been in jail but I hear ritual murders are no longer committed.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's assume this then that they are committed.  Do you not find anything wrong with that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: It will depend on who - could you please repeat your question again?

CHAIRPERSON: If there are still ritual murders being committed today, do you think it's right?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I think it's not right, and I don't think the government of the day will accept ritual murders.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ndou.

MR NDOU: That is all Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mushasha.

MR MUSHASHA: Will you please tell me and the Chairman and the Committee what you actually did in the killing process?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I have already explained that I killed the deceased by throwing stones at him and burning the house of the deceased, throwing stones and burning resulted in the death of the deceased.  As such I have participated.

MR MUSHASHA: With what did you burn the house?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I think that the thing which is capable of burning is fire.

MR MUSHASHA: Did you also make use of petrol in the process of burning the house?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Somebody sprinkled or poured petrol and lit and I was one of the people who lit the match.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you happen to know the deceased's wife, Chifloa?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Maybe I'm confused by the name, I don't know if she's called Chiflora or who, I know here and I can point her out, but the name might be a problem.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you know the deceased's wife Swido ...(indistinct)?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I know her.

MR MUSHASHA: My instructions are that you were actually seen chopping the deceased with a panga, what do you say to this?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: That is something which I don't know.

MR MUSHASHA: The deceased's wife says she actually saw you chopping the deceased with a panga.  Do you say it's not true.