Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now, may I, let's get down to the case which I will refer to as case 580, as opposed to 1155, 580 is the skeleton which Dr Chetty examined and 1155 the one that Dr Naidoo examined.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you call them case 580?

MR VISSER: I don't know what to call them.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a post-mortem number?

MR VISSER: Yes, it is a post-mortem number.

CHAIRPERSON: We will call it PM580, that is Dr Chetty you say?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And ...

MR VISSER: PM1155.

CHAIRPERSON: PM, post-mortem, 1155, the one performed by Dr Naidoo.

MR VISSER: Yes, now to make it absolutely clear ...

MR LAX: Just to be absolutely clear, we are talking about 580/87 and 1155 was of which year?

MR VISSER: 1997.

MR LAX: 1997?

MR VISSER: I am not attaching any particular significance, it is just for the ease of reference.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Just to make it absolutely clear, is it your contention that the remains examined by Dr Chetty, belonged to the same person as the remains examined by Dr Naidoo?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I believe that is correct.

MR VISSER: And those remains belong to Kubheka?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: As far as, well, will you please tell us, do you have in your possession any post-mortem report about any other post-mortem performed by another body in this hearing or don't you have?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I have acquired other post-mortem reports subsequent to the hearing commencing.

MR VISSER: Where are they?

STEPHANIE MILLER: They are in front of me.  They were acquired as a result of the suggestion that you would call for such things on Friday.  Am I misunderstanding your question, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No, you are understanding the question perfectly correct, what I find is just to be amazed at what you have just said, because in November last year we asked for these things and we were just never given them.  I just find it amazing.   I am not blaming you for it.
	Chairperson ...

STEPHANIE MILLER: Mr Visser, my understanding is, if you don't mind me mentioning that these were freely available from the mortuaries, on request by any party, interested party.

MR VISSER: Ms Miller, I am not going to argue about that, we were not, we are not an investigation team with access to these things, you are.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, can I intervene at this point.  My learned friend often refers, or a number of times have referred to things that we have not provided to them like post-mortem reports.  I would like to put it on record that we had indicated where these post-mortem reports could be found in Pretoria, in the office of Mr Holmes, Mike Holmes.  I don't know really where he is going to with these kinds of remarks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: We will make our submissions during argument, Mr Chairperson.
	Before, let me ask this, when in relationship to the date of the exhumation, did you obtain the report of Dr Chetty, the post-mortem report of Dr Chetty, was it before or after?

STEPHANIE MILLER: It was before.

MR VISSER: Before?  And I take it, you read it?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, I read it.

MR VISSER: And your statement and your evidence says that you concluded that PM580 fitted all the criteria and you mentioned age, sex, size and level of decomposition?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether apart from what Dr Naidoo and Dr Chetty found in their post-mortem reports, there were any tests done to determine the age of the living person to whom the skeleton belonged, PM580?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The only tests that I am aware of that were done, was subsequent to the exhumation on the remains, I am not aware of any tests that were done prior to that.

MR VISSER: And that would have been done by Dr Naidoo?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Or at the behest of Dr Naidoo.

MR VISSER: Well, that is my question, do you know of at his behest, someone else performed any tests?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I believe a test was done by an expert on her teeth and an age analysis being done on that basis.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is the one that we have on record in the Bundle, is that the one you are referring to?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, the witness is referring to, I am sure I've got it marked, page 39.  It is Spears, Chairperson, I believe, in Bundle 2, I believe that is what the witness is referring to.
	Apart from that, you are not aware of any other tests that were done?

STEPHANIE MILLER: My memory, I cannot remember any other test being done.

MR VISSER: May I ask you this, I will ask Dr Naidoo as well, but do you know of any tests which were done in order to attempt to establish the age of the skeleton, PM580 since death?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Only what you see before you in the Bundle, that I am aware of, in terms of age.

MR VISSER: We've got no problem with the sex issue, but now I would ask you about the size.  When you said that the skeleton PM580, fitted the criteria of size, what did you mean by that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: All the reports given to us, including that by your clients, were that the deceased was an extremely short person.

MR VISSER: Which of my clients said that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I think most that I spoke to.

MR VISSER: I see.  Did you listen to their evidence?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I did listen to their evidence.

MR VISSER: Wasserman, may I just remind you, gave evidence here about the dress and Wasserman was the only one of the applicants that I appear for that said that she was a short person.

STEPHANIE MILLER: In his evidence?

MR VISSER: In his evidence.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.    He is the only one that mentions it in his evidence, but the others have mentioned it on previous occasions.

MR VISSER: That is only half the question, because that relates to height?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: And we will come to that.

MR LAX: I didn't hear what you said, relates to what, sorry?

MR VISSER: Height.

MR LAX: Height, sorry, I just couldn't hear you, sorry.

MR VISSER: Length or height.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now let's just look at the other side of the coin, size in the sense of girth, the sense of how big.  What was your impression from what you had learnt from the family of Ntombi Kubheka, was her size in that respect?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The family said that since they had last seen her, she had gained weight.  There was an agreement that she was somewhat overweight at the time, whatever that might mean, of her death.

MR VISSER: Large?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am not sure if we can call her large, I think we should call her overweight, because she was a small person.

MR VISSER: You might think so, but the evidence throughout Ms Miller, and if you were here, you would have heard it, was that she was a large woman and that was never contested?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am not sure that is correct Mr Visser, my  understanding from all accounts, is that she was a small woman who was overweight.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Well, if one assumes that Mr Wills ...

STEPHANIE MILLER: Small being, in height.

MR VISSER: If one assumes that Mr Wills as we must, did his job properly, we can assume that it is common cause that she was a large woman, I am putting it to you on that basis.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, with respect, large is a relative term, what is exactly meant by that term?  If Mr Visser could possibly give me a criteria what he means by that, and then I will be in a position to agree whether or not it is common cause.
	If he says that she weighs 125 kg's, then it is not common cause.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I am not entering into an argument, I am simply saying what the evidence is so far.  The evidence was she was a large person, that is what I am putting to Ms Miller.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence of the applicants?

MR VISSER: The applicants, and it was never contested.  We have checked very carefully through the record.
	No qualifications were made.