Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us what happened, or the circumstances surrounding your arrest?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: We were trying to transport these weapons to Twalome.  Before we got there we were approached by the police and they pointed a firearm at me.  I then surrendered.  Thereafter they assaulted me and they confiscated this firearm from me.  They asked me where I was going and I informed them that I was on my way home.

MR WILLS: And were you charged? - sorry, there was a shootout on that day, is that correct, between the police and two of your comrades?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Were you involved in that shootout?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No, I did not shoot because I am the one who was captured first.

MR WILLS: And you made a statement in regard to that incident, that arrest, is that correct?  You made a statement before a magistrate?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: On the 31st of May 1992, at Durban, is that right?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And this statement that you made correct?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No, it is not.

MR WILLS: Why do you say that?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I was forced to make that statement, I was forced by the police.

MR WILLS: How were you forced by the police to make this statement?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: They said if I do not admit that we were on our way to rob these people by Master, if I do not confess to that I would be killed like Jay Cele.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that the police were asking you to implicate Master, this I presume is Master Shange, in some conspiracy to rob a store or rob?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: I'm saying, are you saying that the police wanted you to implicate Master in one, the possession of the firearms and in a plan to rob one of the shops?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And this is what you said in your statement?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now again ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: This is what he said in his statement.

MR WILLS: Yes.  I'm referring to - sorry, Mr Chairperson, possibly I must give this an exhibit number.  This is a statement made on the 31st day of May, something that I was handed earlier today.  I think this can be Exhibit D.  It's a statement made before a magistrate in Durban and I battled to get the thing in order, but it was made on the 31st of May.  The magistrate was Mr M M Gantshe, or Gantshu.  I think it's G-A-N-T-S-H-U, with the interpreter, Themba Nkosi Ntombene.  I don't know if you have that statement before you.

MR LAX: This is the one that starts with page 1 handwritten on this 31st day of May?

MR WILLS: That's exactly right, yes.  This is Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Exhibit D.

MR WILLS: I just want to, for the sake of clarity, read a section of this to you.  You say
"It was about 8pm on Sunday.  A male person named Jomo came to my place.  He said Master wants to see me."
And then you say:
"Master is our commander ..."
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you reading from?

MR WILLS: It's the page, it looks like a 4.  It's a handwritten section.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it's the beginning of the statement, is it?

MR WILLS: Yes.  Was Master your commander?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No.
MR WILLS
"His name is Master Shange.  We went to Master's place, myself and Jomo.  Master said he is sorting rounds of ammunition.  He wants us to go and rob one of the shops at Mashiwane."
Did that in fact happen?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS: Now why did you make this statement?  You were before a magistrate and it was only the magistrate, you and the interpreter in the room, surely you could have told the magistrate the truth, that the police, what you say now, that the police had told you to make this statement.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I was intimidated even by the magistrate, as well as the fact that I knew that I was going to be accompanied by the same police on our way back and I was afraid of them, that they would assault me.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MS MTANGA: I've got one question.  Mr Ncokwane, you said that your attack on the bus would have helped you return home.  I would like to know how would the attack have assisted you or achieved this, how would you have achieved it by attacking the bus and the people inside the bus?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: It would have helped us because if we had been attacked, if we had been able to attack many people, those other people at Mashiwane would have been intimidated by us and they would have fled, so that we also are in a position to return to our area.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

MR LAX: You never really attacked these people at their homes, did you?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, we didn't.

MR LAX: You attacked them at a place, at a bus stop on a road some distance from the area, correct?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it some distance from where they lived?  Didn't people come from there to frighten you away from the bus?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: After you had attacked the bus, people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Chairperson.  Mr Shange, if you talk to that man again I'm going to have you put in another place, do you understand?  You do not tell him what to say.  Let him talk for himself.

CHAIRPERSON: After you had attacked the bus, didn't a party of people arrive, who made you flee into the sugar-cane?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, some people did approach.  They did not arrive at the scene, at the spot where we were, but we fled before they arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were they coming from?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: They were from Nkwale.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they walking?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: After this incident, what did you do?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: After that incident I returned the gun to Master at Umgubaba and then I left with my brother, Jabulani Cele, to Folweni, where we slept.  On the following morning we returned to Umgubaba and that's where we remained.

MR LAX: How long did you remain there for?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I think about a week.

MR LAX: And then?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: We then left for Ntuzuma because we had heard that Izak Shange had been arrested.

MR LAX: Yes, and then you went to Ntuzuma.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: From Ntuzuma we went back to Umgubaba, and then I suggested that guns were going to be a problem, they would implicate us and therefore I suggested that we take them to Twalome.  We all agreed on this.  We then took these weapons and transported them to Twalome, but before we got there we were approached by the police, who arrested us.

MR LAX: Now you didn't just have, you didn't have all the firearms that were used in this attack with you?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Where were the other firearms that we used in the attack, if you were so worried about firearms?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I would not really know, but I think it was only one firearm that was missing, a pump-gun.

MR LAX: In this attack, we have been told there were two AK47's, 3 AK47's, two home-made firearms and a pump-gun, correct?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: How many did the three of you have, that were arrested that day?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Three guns.

MR LAX: What happened to the pump-gun, what happened to the home-made firearm?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Those guns were with other members of the group who were not present when we left to transport the rest to Twalome.

MR LAX: Why were you carrying the handgrenades with you?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I was removing it from the scene, that is from Umgubaba.