Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Managa are you being honest in what you are saying?  Didn't you complete your application form, your first application form on the 10th of December 1996?  The evidence that was adduced before the Human Rights Violations Committee was around October 1996, long before you completed your application form, the first application form.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: That could be possible.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I am not disputing that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: By that time you knew the version that the victims had presented before the Human Rights Violations Committee with regard pertinently to the methods of assault you had used on them when you had completed your own application form. That's before you met your lawyers.  I don't know when you met your lawyer.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is true.

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman I would like to clear something up. This document containing the evidence of people that gave evidence before the Human Rights Committee was not in possession of the applicants at the stage when they completed their amnesty application forms.  This only came into our possession I would say more-or-less a month ago.  I can't give an exact date.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am aware of that Mr Meyer.  What I am putting to him is that he, on his own version, says he heard it over the radio, and the radio broadcast was around October 1996.

MR MEYER: I am sorry I didn't....

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's all that I am putting to him. He's made it quite clear that he first came to be aware of what the victims were saying over the radio and we know that these things were carried over by the radio.  Various radio stations were transmitting the evidence as it was being adduced before the Human Rights Violations Committee, and that's how, I think, quite a number of people became aware of the evidence that was tendered by the likes of Mr Farisani, Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana, because I don't think Mr Chikororo came before the Human Rights Violations to give his version of how he was assaulted at the hands of the Venda Security Branch Police.  That's the point I was trying to clarify with him.  That he knew about the methods that had been used on these victims in October 1996, and his application form was completed in December 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: And it can be seen from the documents in front of us that the evidence of Messrs Farisani, Posiwa and Poswana was given on the 3rd and 4th of October 1996, two days.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you knew then what the victims were saying about how they were tortured in October '96, before you completed your first application form, is it not so?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Managa, what was your objective in dealing with the detainees in the way that you have described, in other words by assaulting them and torturing them?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: The main objective was to find evidence on how it happened that the police station was bombed while we were investigating that case.

MR MEYER: What kind of instructions did you have from your superior officers regarding the solving of the attack on the police station?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: The instructions from the previous speaker is that we must work very hard to find those people who bombed the police station because the high-ranking officials were pressuring that we must work very hard, day and night, so that we can find them and bring them before the law.

MR MEYER: As you sit here today and you think back on what you did to them how do you feel about it?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I feel very disturbed in my heart that I did that because I assaulted them and I am apologising to their family because it was because of the work of the government of the day.  I feel my heart will be settled if they can really reconcile with me because of what I did, that is why I am also speaking this in front of the Chairman and before the family of those people which we have hurt so badly while we were doing this job of assaulting and torturing.  It is very painful.  I understand that it is painful that is why I am speaking it before the people and I am saying let them forgive me for that.

MR MEYER: Mr Managa there is one other aspect.  After the assaults had taken place some civil proceedings were instituted by the victims against the police, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is true.  They lodged civil claims but it was something which was being dealt with, with our superiors because there were people who had so much pains.

MR MEYER: Right, but with regard to those proceedings you made a statement in which you denied any involvement or assault on the particular people.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 104, is that right.

MR MEYER: Page 104.  If I can just show you the statement here.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I made a statement denying that I assaulted them to avoid the civil case and because we were not having evidence from the doctors that they were assaulted.  But of course we made statements to deny that we assaulted them.  It is true I did that.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Managa just before I ask Mr van Rensburg, you were saying "we assaulted them...." now who were you with when these assaults and tortures took place?  Who did you do it with?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I was with Mr Ramaligela, the first speaker, and Mr Nesamari and sometimes we used to have people, boys, younger boys, when Mr Ramaligela is not there we sometimes used these young boys to interrogate these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember any names of those others that you utilised to assist you?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: What can I say, Mr Netshivale is one of the people.  The rest I can't really recollect because some of them are no longer available.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van Rensburg do you have any questions to ask?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one or two questions.
	You have just mentioned that Mr Netshivale was one of the persons that was used from time-to-time to help with the interrogation of the detainees.  Can you please tell this hearing, with whom of the detainees did you personally use him for the interrogation?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't recall that more especially for which detainee we used him. (tape side A ends)....but I think for some of them he might have been involved.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you personally recall ever giving Mr Netshivale an instruction regarding the interrogation of the detainees?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember.  I might have given him an instruction, but I can't remember.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you remember at that stage what rank did Mr Netshivale hold, or what was his position?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember whether he was a constable or a sergeant, but he wasn't a warrant officer, but he was in a lower position to a warrant officer.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Perhaps I can just put the record straight at this stage, I think under previous cross-examination I put it to one of the witnesses that during 1981 Mr Netshivale was in fact holding the rank of sergeant.  That was a mistake of mine.  Subsequently this morning I obtained instructions that he was in fact a constable at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you dispute that, that he was a constable?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: If in 1981 they are saying he was a constable then it could be, it is possible.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when you allude to young boys you allude to people like Mr Netshivale, is it not so, who were constables that you would use from time-to-time to assist in the interrogation of suspects?