Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No, I can't - thereafter if the command has come, I can't start down and start afresh and do the survey.  If the command comes it is Ulundi - I'm saying that because there was some misunderstanding amongst the Inkatha and people were killed, were shot and Daloxholo took Zekele to the central committee of Inkatha.  That committee said what was done by Teleweni is good, it's good and they should just continue doing that and indeed we actually proceeded with that and then there was some separation amongst us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You've already told this Committee that you do not know the name of this man that you killed.  I'm giving a name here, I don't know whether if I mentioned to you you'd recall if this is the man that you killed.  I giving a name Mokoatlwama spelt M-o-k-o-a-t-l-w-a-m-a.  Can you remember that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No I don't.  The person that I remember is that it's certain Mr owning a house that we're supposed to kill, I didn't know his name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm moving now to the girls that - whose throats were cut.

INTERPRETER: Sorry, can you repeat?  The girls who did what?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you have your ...[indistinct] that would be page 145.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he's now going to talk about the girls whose throats were cut.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the policy of the IFP in as far as young children are concerned?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean young children of, generally young children or yes, I think just be a little more specific.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the policy of Inkatha as far as young children below the age of sixteen were concerned?

SISI KHAMPEPE: In respect of what, Mr Mpshe?  With regard to?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: With regard to their elimination and tortures and other things.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I will just - I would like to explain that you can understand.  We actually targeted the girls who were pregnant.  We as Teleweni, we did not actually learn politics and then when Zekele said you must just attack, whether there's an old lady, whether there's an old man, we would actually carry out that task, so I would not actually interfere with the IFP policy.  I used to just do whatever I was told, whether there was an old lady, whether there was an old man.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which means that even an order is out to eliminate, the elimination disregards age?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I think it was like that, even my parent, even if my parent was actually opposing Zekele, I would have killed my parent because Zekele was working with the police.  If I don't carry out his duties then the police would actually steal us and take us away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was raping your target, if they were your target, part of the general instruction?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I think I will actually expand there.  When there was actually a war ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Sorry I could not catch the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hlongwane, could you just repeat what you said, the interpreter couldn't catch what you said?

ADV MOTATA: Before you respond to that Mr Hlongwane, your voice gets projected to another direction.  I appreciate that you want to look at the person you are answering but if you could at the same time, you know, let the mike just stay towards you, it would make it better for the interpreter.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Okay thank you.  I just wanted to confirm the age, the girl is 30 years, Thandi Mia was 30 years.  Her cousin Tusi Pomlaba was taken out of the taxi at the station and was raped, stabbed until they died.  The people who did that - the Webber Police were like this, they knew the people, they used to know the people who were killing people from UDF side and from IFP side.
	That particular time what actually came to Zekele, Zekele told us you must know this, that's when this thing - when you would actually go to people's refrigerators.  So when Zekele asked what's stopping you from doing the same thing, so even the comrades are doing that or then us Teleweni must do that.  Whatever they direct onto you, you should also direct it onto them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was this incident you are referring to?  When did this incident occur of Thandi Mia?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Thandi Mia's incident as it is right now, there was comrade - we were with Zekele that part, that was in '87, what I was about to explain, what I wanted to explain.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Hlongwane if - what I'm going to ask of you is difficult.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes say so but let me try.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be correct to state that in all the incidents you have testified where killing and violation of human rights has taken place, you did not as a commander do any reconnaissance or ascertain membership of those people used, you relied on informers strictly, would that be correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Can you actually clearly state your question, I can't quite understand your question?  Please make it short or brief.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Hlongwane, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Mphse, but what Mr Mpshe is asking you is he's asking you to confirm that in all the incidents that you have described to us today, you didn't do your own reconnaissance work yourself to establish whether your targets were in fact UDF people, you only or you merely relied on informers for that information.  He's asking you whether that is so or not?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: What I can say or hear is that I was born here in Hammarsdale, we know each other here.  We know that there, there is somebody who is staying is like this and if people come and tell me that at 3 something like this is happening, so it is known that at 3 if you are an IFP member, you wouldn't dare go to that area.  At 4 you wouldn't dare go to that area if you are a UDF.  I was born here at Mpumalanga, we know each other here, we are the ones who started this war up and till at the end because we know each other very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Fine.  Lastly, all these things that you did, did you do them voluntarily or because you feared that if you don't you will be eliminated?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No.  Fighting against ANC was from my blood because I hated ANC, I never liked ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Wills do you have any re-examination?

MR WILLS: Just one aspect, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Hlongwane, we know from your evidence and I just want you to confirm this that you became operative in these operations in the Mpumalanga area shortly after joining the IFP and that was sometime during 1995 sorry 1985.  Is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed.

MR WILLS: Can you recall approximately when in 1985 that was, was it towards the beginning of the year or towards the end of the year?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It was towards the end of the year.

MR WILLS: Yes and then we also know from your evidence that very soon after the incident involving the murder and the attempted murder of the two girls that you fled to Ulundi, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is the truth.

MR WILLS: Now my understanding from your evidence is that you fled very soon, within a week of you committing that crime, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MR WILLS: And we know - is it your case that after you fled, after that incident, that you never committed any crimes in Mpumalanga after you fled?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed.  After doing that medicine then the Sangoma was fetched and 32 chickens were slaughtered at Zekele's, white chickens and people from the community at Hammarsdale when Teleweni were attending to Banana, that's when we were taking peoples blood and doing everything.  That's when Zekele went to take a certain aunt and nearby his place a hole was dug so they were not slaughtered by a knife, they were actually strangled and thereafter Zekele took me to Ulundi.  That was the last time I operated here in Hammarsdale.