Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR PHOSA: No, no, no, I'm not saying to you, you know the answer but I want to know what you were thinking then.  Are you saying: "Mr Chairman, I actually thought about this, whether or not to report to my seniors, then I thought to myself: "They might just disagree with me, you never know and I decided the best thing is not to report".  Isn't that your answer?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What I thought at that stage and in that connection, I'm not sure but you are saying to me, I could have thought about it in that way and at this stage I can't remember what exactly I thought about this matter.

MR PHOSA: Just finally on that point, you're not suggesting that you were unconscious of your decisions at the time - you did them unconsciously, you're not suggesting that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I would not that in any circumstances because that is not true.

MR PHOSA: Did you ever get to hear that Mthimkhulu alleged that he was actually shot - shot during arrest, by members of the security police?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can vaguely recall that and I would say yes, I can recall that there was a shooting incident.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, sorry.  Was - where members of your team - those who dealt with him or even arrested him, under an obligation to inform you that he had been shot and of the circumstances under which that happened?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying yes, because in such a case there would have had to be an enquiry or an investigation because all incidents of shooting had to be investigated by the detective branch of the South African police, and my answer is yes.

MR PHOSA: Can I put it to you, as a matter of fact Mr Mthimkhulu was shot, are you denying that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm not denying it at all.

MR PHOSA: Now, did members of your police - of your team of the security branch report that incident to you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that's what I said.

MR PHOSA: And did you take the necessary steps that are normally taken when a report like that reaches a person of your status?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The necessary steps and the normal procedure would be that any shooting incident would be reported and would be investigated, not by my staff but by another section of the South African police.

MR PHOSA: I'm trying to finalise this.  Where did you take steps that you ere obliged to take and was this matter handled in the normal way when someone has been shot at the hands of the police?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was done in that way, yes.

MR PHOSA: Was the person that shot him identified?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I don't remember but I think a statement would have been made by him.

MR PHOSA: Were you not concerned that a member - possibly a member of your team, would have shot him?  Isn't that something that would have worried you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can't understand why I should have been so concerned about it because the issue would have been dealt with in the normal way.

MR PHOSA: Finally on that score you would - if things are normal, expect that there is a record somewhere there.  There should be a record that will indicate what was done about that, shouldn't there be if things are normal?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: There ought to be, yes.

MR PHOSA: Just finally now, who is applying here for amnesty?  Is it Erasmus the person or Erasmus the policeman?  I'm using your distinctions?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we need to waste time on that Mr Phosa.

MR PHOSA: I really meant it seriously but I'm not going to pursue it, it will emerge later.  That settles my - that ends my questioning.
	Just to point one thing Mr Chairperson, the document that was given to me yesterday, C - just for interest of those who might want to, is incomplete, there are many pages missing.  I'm just mentioning it for the sake of - in case it arises later.  I couldn't have seen everything because there are certain pages missing, it might just cause a problem to everybody else as well.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PHOSA

MR BRINK: Thank you.  Just on that aspect, I understand that the two pages were made by Mr Visser of Mr Wagner because that was the only reference to Mr Erasmus, the other evidence given was quite irrelevant to these proceedings.
	Yes, I won't keep you long Mr Erasmus you'll be pleased to hear but perhaps you can help me, when did you first become aware of Mthimkhulu's political activities when you came down to Port 
Elizabeth?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: When I arrived here I found myself in this unrest situation in the early '80's - early in 1980, the 1980's.

MR BRINK: Is that when you became aware of his activities?  You were informed abut them presumably?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Would you have been the one to have authorised his detention in May 1981?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: We would have sent an application to headquarters and if it was in terms of the security legislation, I would not have authorised it.

MR BRINK: No, but on the basis that it would have been approved, would you have taken responsibility for the authorisation of his detention once it had been approved by head office.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR BRINK: So, would it be fair to say that you probably authorised his detention on the 31st of May 1981?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: If the approval did take place and there would be a document embodying it, then the answer is yes.

MR BRINK: One can only think that there must have been approval otherwise he wouldn't have been detained.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Did you at any stage visit him during the course of his detention from the 31st of May to the 20th of October 1981?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can't remember that I did but I'm assuming that I must have seen him and if I had visited him, it would have been noted somewhere.

MR BRINK: So you have no independent recollection of what his physical condition might have been at any time during the period May to October 1981?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I don't.

MR BRINK: Now, you told the Committee - I think it was either this morning or yesterday but it doesn't matter, that the discussion which you had with your co-applicants to kill Mthimkhulu took place some 10 days before the 14th of April 1982, that was the date upon which he died.  In other words, the discussion was held on or about the 4th of April 1982. ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that's not ...[inaudible] if I may be permitted to say so.  He did state twice that it was over a period of 10 days, with respect Mr Chairman, that's how I - my understanding of the evidence ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The discussion took place over a period of 10 days, it started on the 10th ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It started on the 4th.

MR VISSER: On the 4th.

MR BRINK: Yes, yes.  I'm sorry, I didn't mean to mislead you Mr Erasmus.  In any event the discussion - the point of the matter is, the discussions started on the 4th of April 1982, discussions held with the view to agreeing to kill this man and Madaka?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And you were aware of course that - I think it was one the 2nd of April 1982, proceedings had been launched against the Minister of Law and Order or Minister of Police - he was then, by Mthimkhulu for damages as a result of the treatment which he alleged he received at the hands of security policemen?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, the summons on the 2nd was in result of the poisoning - that he had already issued summons in respect of other damages on the 15th of December, is that not correct?

MR BRINK: I'll check that, my impression was - but in any event, a summons had been issued on the 2nd ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm relying on B page 95, the report.

MR BRINK: I'm obliged to you Mr Chairman.  You see ...[intervention]