Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

MR BRINK: You spoke to Mr Mpisane at court, didn't you?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, I had a discussion with him.  He said it is because now there was a conflict between the residents and then - so Mr Mpisane was actually discouraging the fact that we would expose our behaviour in front of the White people.
	So I got very interested because we were worried if he is actually collaborating with our enemy they won't have problems in trying to get rid of us.  So I wanted to know exactly what was happening with him.

MR BRINK: Did you ask him why he was associating so freely with the police?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: What I told him about I was actually referring to Mr Ngxobongwana.  Because when we were talking with Mr Ngxobongwana we had a disagreement, I gave him a clap and I said to him if it is you and Mike and Mr Yabola, when I look at you, he looked like the people who are actually loyal to the community, but I am wondering if you can see that the other people are collaborating with the police.
	Because even yourself, you look like a person who is actually working with the police and then he said we would talk about that later.

MR BRINK: Did you understand that that was Mr Mpisane or not?

JUDGE WILSON: Who did you give a clap to?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: It is Mr Ngxobongwana.  Because I was trying to explain that we are trying to talk to Mr Mpisane because now the residents are actually fighting with Mr Ngxobongwana's wife and the others.  And actually he refused to talk to me, that is Mr Ngxobongwana.  We ended up in a fight, but we still continued to discuss with Mr Mpisane.
	I am trying to explain what actually happened that day.

MR BRINK: I want to know about Mr Mpisane, you told the Committee that on the 27th of August you became convinced that he, Mr Mpisane, was an informer because you saw him with the policeman from Khayelitsha, is that correct?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: That is correct sir.  The Bellville South policeman, Rossouw, is from Bellville South.

MR BRINK: You say he had nothing to do with the ISU's in Khayelitsha, he was merely investigating?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Whom are you talking about?

MR BRINK: The policeman you've just named?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Those are the people, it is Rossouw and Nienaber who were actually the perpetrators there, they are the people who actually made the plan to recruit the people to work for them.

MR BRINK: The first part of the interpretation was cut off from me, I have to put this again.  Was Mr Rossouw and Mr Nienaber, the two policemen, were they in any way involved with the ISU's in Khayelitsha, yes or no?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, they were together.

MR BRINK: So they were involved in the Khayelitsha unrest?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, Rossouw even stated that they had 18 months working with those people.  Even our legal representative confirmed this, that was said in November 1993.

MR BRINK: And it was that, as you've said, made you convinced that Mpisane was an informer? ... (tape ends)  You talked to Mr Mpisane at court, forget about anyone else, I want to know whether you spoke to him, Mr Mpisane at court on the 27th of August in the court?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, I talked to him.

MR BRINK: What did you say to him?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: You said I mustn't talk about the others, but what actually made me to talk to Mr Mpisane is because of the residents who were fighting with Mr Ngxobongwana's wife and the others and now I told them that this is a disgrace because we are fighting in front of the nations, because the residents couldn't take it any more and then Mr Mpisane said we can talk about this thing.

MR BRINK: Did you accuse Mr Mpisane when you spoke to him at court of being an informer?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I didn't say that directly, but it is what I had inside me when I talked to him, I didn't talk like a person who knows everything that was happening because I was actually trying to investigate.
	I wanted to get the truth.

MR BRINK: Wouldn't you investigate first hand by asking him or accusing him of being an informer?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, if there were no signs, I was going to ask him directly but now it was difficult because there were signs.  Actually he was going to be aware that I know everything.

MR BRINK: Did you know why he came to court?  He wasn't charged?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I don't know why he was in court because there was no case for him.  The only residents who were there, were accompanying me.

MR BRINK: Did you arrange to hold a meeting with Mr Mpisane when you saw him at court on the 27th of August?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I don't want to lie, I never made any arrangements with him but when I looked at him, it was like we could get him and he could explain about Rossouw and Nienaber, how far are they in their collaboration.

MR BRINK: Is it your evidence today that you did not arrange with him that a meeting should be held to discuss various problems?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: We never came to any conclusion, even though we went to his house, he was not aware that we were coming.

MR BRINK: Please, keep to the point.  I am asking you whether when you met him at court, that is Mr Mpisane at court, whether you had a discussion with him in the course of which you suggested holding a meeting to discuss problems to which he agreed, that is all I want to know?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, we didn't finalise anything, we just said we  were going to talk about this thing, but we didn't finalise anything.

MR BRINK: Was he agreeable to holding a meeting, or was  a meeting never suggested?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I cannot say so because we didn't finalise anything about the meeting but we just said there is a need to sit down and discuss this thing, but it was never finalised whether we were going to have a meeting or what and when?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Didn't you suggest to him that a meeting should be held at the 28th of August 1992?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No.  This is what I said in the court, but it was not true, this is part of the lie that I said in the court.  Don't even look at that thing.

MR BRINK: What was the point of lying in court about that?  Because you said in your evidence apparently, you saw Mpisane by chance at court, that you discussed the need for a meeting in order to sort out the problems and you said that Mpisane was agreeable to the holding of such a meeting and that a meeting would in fact take place.
	And you suggested that the meeting was to be held the following day, that is the 28th of August, but it couldn't have been held on the following day, because you were only granted bail on the 29th of August.  But why did you tell the court about his being willing to meet with you and discuss the problems?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I am trying to explain because in court we were trying to defend ourselves, we were trying to defend ourselves so this place is not like the court so that is why I am actually trying to explain what actually happened.

JUDGE WILSON: One point I would like to clear up, is the position that he was standing, talking to a woman, Mr Mpisane that is, standing talking to a woman outside his house when the three of you appeared?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, that is correct sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You walked up to him, (indistinct) grabbed him by the vest or T-shirt, pulled him and guns were pointed at him?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: That is correct sir.

JUDGE WILSON: He managed to get loose, ran away and you killed him with the woman standing there?  Is that what happened?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The woman did nothing.  The woman didn't even run away, he is the one who ran away.

JUDGE WILSON: And you killed him, shooting him in the back?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR BRINK: I think for the record,  he didn't in fact kill him, they attempted to kill him.