Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR BLACK: In other words, the evidence will be of the victims that they were sitting there watching television, when suddenly their lights went off, the whole house's lights. In other words the main switch outside the house must have gone off.  People entered, the lights went on.  Then there was some, a voice called out "Manta".

PHINEAS NDLOVU: When we walked in the house was, there was light inside the house. I wouldn't know if the lights did fall before we gained entrance ...

MR BROWN: Mr Chairman could I just indicate that there was plenty of evidence at the trial about what happened, how they got access to the house, the Judge actually found that there was a knock on the door, somebody said who is there and they said comrades.  That was a finding, but be that as it may, there is exhausted evidence on the record of the trial as to how they got in and what happened when they were in the house.
	And broadly speaking, we haven't contested that.  Now if we are going into a retrial about the detail of how they got into the house and what happened when they were in the house, then I think we're obviously going to have to prepare ourselves in a different way.
	But broadly speaking we haven't contested the generality of that evidence and of the court record.  The only aspect which we've contested is the question of the motive.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you call the name Mantha.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was Mantha?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It was Hendrik's sister.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you call the name, or who called the name?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Mashavu called the name.

ADV DE JAGER: Did Mantha respond?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Was she there?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Later it appeared, she was.

ADV DE JAGER: Was she injured or killed in the event?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: She died in the event.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Currin, with regard to your objection, is the version the accused, the applicant is giving us, the version that appears in the record?

MR CURRIN: Broadly, with regard to their access to the house and what happened in the house, broadly speaking, it is the same version that is in the record, the trial, the only aspect which we have really, I suppose one can say, put in dispute, is the way in which the motive and the participation of the comrades, the conflict which they had with Hendrik was totally depoliticized.
	Outside of that, we are really not contesting the detail of the evidence that was submitted at the trial.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Currin, does Mr Black have possession of the record you are referring to?

MR CURRIN: He does have the record and if he were to look at the judgement, the very first page the Judge there deals with how they got access to the house and what happened and it is broadly speaking the evidence that has been given now, but clearly if one is going to go into detail and ask very specific questions, I am sure that there is going to be a slightly different version and there, because we are talking about something that happened a long time ago.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, it is not my intention to go into any detail, unnecessary detail.  I disagree, I haven't - I have read the evidence and I have consulted with the victims, that evidence I have read.  I disagree with what my learned friend says as to broadly speaking, as to how they entered the house and what happened in the house conforms with the evidence given by the applicant.  I must disagree.
	I can highlight the issues which I wish to highlight because I intend Mr Masupa is going to request that he give evidence and I don't want, I wouldn't, I assume my learned friend would also be understanding in that regard and not subject him to unnecessary cross-examination.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, it is common cause they have entered the house, it is common cause that they created the fire or the burning.  What would be relevant is what was said by the comrades and what they accused the people inside of, because that is relevant as far as the motive is concerned, so could we see whether we could get any information on that basis?

MR BLACK: Thank you.  I was getting to that.  As far as I just want to place in dispute the evidence given by the applicant, as far as the gaining of entry into the house.  What I did omit and what I think is quite an important Mr Masupa confirms it with me, that there was a knock, people said who is there and they said comrades, which I think is relevant.
	And then what happened inside the house, Mantha's name was called, she is in fact Christina Masupa, is she not?  Is that so?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that's right.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Now Christina is the brother of Godfrey Masupa.

JUDGE WILSON: ;	Christina is the brother of Godfrey?

MR BLACK: I mean Christina is the sister to Godfrey Masupa, is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who is Godfrey, Mr Black?  Who is Godfrey Masupa?

MR BLACK: Godfrey Masupa is one of the victims, that was inside the house.  And her mother is Elinale Masupa, is that correct?  Christina's mother?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I gather so.

MR BLACK: And Christina was also active in politics at school, is that not so?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: She was in fact regarded as a comrade?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: I put it to you that you entered the house, there was none of this discussions which you've testified about which took place between you and the occupants of the house, in other words by that I mean this evidence which you've given like trying to persuade them to leave the house, explaining what you were going to do as you've given evidence.  No such discussions took place or attempts were made by you.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It did take place and as a result of that, as I've testified that during that process, I had to extinguish matchsticks that were being thrown to the floor so as to burn the house, not foreseeing that as a result of that people could die and people need to be evacuated first.

MR BLACK: Did you make this clear at the trial?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Come again?

MR BLACK: Did you testify to that effect at the trial, can you remember that you telling the court?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, it is in my trial record that I extinguished match sticks.

MR BLACK: And that you persuaded, tried to persuade the people to get out?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I think it is all there in the trial record.

MR BLACK: Well, I will have to have a closer look at that.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't copies of this trial record be prepared before we adjourn so that we could have a look at it tonight, please?

MR BLACK: I will speak to the logistics people in Johannesburg and I hope we will be able to.  It is in fact, it consists of the evidence, the evidence section consists of two volumes.

JUDGE WILSON: How long, how many pages?

MR BLACK: It is 165, yes and I, but I think the judgement would be, I haven't had an opportunity of reading the judgement.  If we may proceed, thanks.
	I put it to you that Mr Masupa, Godfrey Masupa who was inside the house will deny that there was this discussion as you say, or attempts made to evacuate the house.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: As I have indicated before, there were two people in the kitchen and I spoke to them, informing them of our intensions and whilst I was speaking to them, as I have indicated that it is in the record that I had to deal with the anger of my comrade, and seeing that they didn't foresee that as an end result of their actions at the time, we would all have been dead right inside.

ADV DE JAGER: Who were the two people in the kitchen?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I cannot recall, but it was people of the opposite gender, females, I gather ...

ADV DE JAGER: Was Mantha there, Christina, you knew her, she was a comrade?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Come again sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know Christina, she was a comrade?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, but it wasn't her in the kitchen.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, Godfrey, do you know him?