Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: I thank the Lord that they can take care of themselves today because they had so much potential - they could have done so much more but as I said Ron's death affected their lives permanently.  Instead of concentrating on their academic lives they were drawn to the - to the struggle.  Without reserve, so much so that they would even be locked up - taken out of there classrooms and detained and they couldn't sleep at home because as I said.  Afterwards there was no point in even locking the door.  
We would give the police free access because all they would do was they would come and bang down our doors and knock on our windows and we just decided that it - there was no point.

ADV POTGIETER: And that was the situation with your other brothers, how involved was Ron in politics?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: It's difficult to say that he was not involved because I - the Bible probably teaches you - as I said we come from a very religious family and we learned to always speak out against injustice and if it was wrong then it was probably - that was probably just the case.

ADV POTGIETER: With regards to the incident itself - the shooting incident, I - do I understand you correctly in saying that you and Ron were looking for shelter from the shooting?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, at the time there was a lot of shooting going on and I said to Ron
My brother these people are not playing games here today.  They are shooting for real.  Let us - let us get out of the way.
 And at that stage the shooting was taking between 25 and 50 meters ahead of us in the direction in which we were going.  And I still said to him
Come let us go threw the flats.

ADV POTGIETER: And you went in to one flat and he went in to another, but the flat into which he went belonged to a policeman?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, that was his unfortunate chose.

ADV POTGIETER: And the person in that flat then called another policeman?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes

ADV POTGIETER: And he was then shot dead in that house in the bathroom?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: And if I understand your evidence correctly you were on your way home.  You were not involve in any illegal activity at the time?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: As I said we were people who - who's father was very strict   with regards to discipline.  We would eat strictly at 6 o'clock - not a minute later and we were on our way home to have supper, but unfortunately we couldn't get threw.  As I said his train would arrive at Stellenbosch at approximately 6  o'clock and I think - I'm not to sure but I think on that day - his  train arrived just before 6 o'clock or it could have been a bit later.
And the shooting was - was taking place there.  I had - it's very difficult to understand, in my opinion there was so many ways of getting him out of that bathroom.  I mean at that time I felt - it felt as  though tear gas was never going to stop in South Africa, you know they could have thrown tear gas into the bathroom for all we know.  Because according to Fuad Arnold's evidence he said
 Yes sir, I am coming out please do not shoot.
 And still he shot and you know what brakes my heart was the joy - the joy and the congratulations that the police were giving each other - giving the policeman that shot him.  It's not human to behave in such a fashion, then appears if he had locked himself  up in the bathroom and when the policeman spoke to him, he open the bathroom again.  And that was  when he was shot.

ADV POTGIETER: So one can assume that he was unarmed, he did not have any knifes or any weapons on him at the time?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: No, as I said Ron ... END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B...   [indistinct] our old house because he said why should I have to carry this heavy bag all the way up, I'm passing here tomorrow morning anyway I might just well come and fetch it on my way.

ADV POTGIETER: And on - at the time of the  [indistinct]  what explanation did this Van Zyl give for the shooting, why did say why did he shoot him?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: His evidence was to the effect that Ron struggled with him and tried to overpower him and Ron was to strong for him.  And that was impossible because Ron was tinier than I - he was smaller than I am and he was a big person - he was far bigger than ...[intervention]

ADV POTGIETER: So he alleged that he was doing it in self defense?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, he said that he was - he shot out of necessity.

ADV POTGIETER: And the court found that he could not be held responsible for the death of Ron?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: The court found that no one is responsible - no one can be blamed for Ron's death.

ADV POTGIETER: Did the family try and institute a civil claim or try and consult with an attorney?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: No, as I said my father was terminally ill at that stage and it - our funds dried up so to speak.  I was a student and I think that the illness effected my father, it drained him of all his energy.  He did not have the willpower or the energy to go forth with this.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Carollisen just lastly in conclusion.  There are certain requests that you would like to put to this Commission.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, one I don't know if it's such a bid question but  I would like a tombstone on his grave and next to me is Sandy Messias who was pregnant with Ron's child at that stage and she had a son.  If the Commission could assist in any way with either his studies or anything else it would mean a lot to me, mainly because I still bear the guilt because Ron's son is there but we don't have the funds to take care of him.  
It's impossible to forget Ron's son because Ron was a very lovable person and just a way of letting him know that his father did not die in vain. That we can sit here today and search for the truth.

ADV POTGIETER: Are there any other requests?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: No.

ADV POTGIETER: What is the situation with regards to the media?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, this is still one of the things that hurts me the most.  We have the most influential media which you can think of and it was applied wrongly back then.  I think that there was one particular newspaper that own us a the Carollisen family an explanation and - or an apology and that is the Burger  which named my brother a trouble maker and  I cannot see how the Burger could have had the audacity to call my brother a trouble maker.

ADV POTGIETER: In which context was that put because they never called the actual trouble makers here in South Africa  such, they actually praised those people so the Burger published a report after the incident where the labeled your brother a trouble maker?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: And was that given as the explanation as to why he was shot?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, and I feel that if we would like a healthy South Africa, then we should have a healthy media.  A media which firmly searches for the truth and not gives its own interpretation of what it believes the truth to be.  And I feel that the Burger owes our family an apology.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Mr Carollisen.  I am going to ask you to move the microphone over to Ms Messias and then we will hear what she has to say, if she would like to add anything.
 We have listened to these circumstances to what have happened.  We've also listened and heard that you were pregnant when all this had happened, this - you were with Ron's child.  Would you like to tell us how this incident effected you and the child.