Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

UNKNOWN: Thank you Madame Chair.  My submission today regarding the application of Mr Ndlangamandla is that I would like to submit that there was no full disclosure on the grounds that the applicant has given quite a number of inconsistent and contradictions.  If I may just mention a few?  He talks about the fact that they were attacked by the ANC as an IFP group that he was close to his grandfather when this happened and then in his application he alleges that he was behind the house when his grandfather was attacked.
	He also in his application form doesn't make any reflection of the fact that this was an ANC/IFP war or fight, he doesn't make any mention of it in his application form, it's the first time
 we hear about it today and my submission to you is that either the applicant lied in his application form or he is lying today and we can never know whether he is telling the truth today if he lied in his application form.
	Secondly, I would like to argue that there's no political objective for the killing of Mr Ben Nkosi on the grounds that - if the Committee Members can bear with me?  On the grounds that this was a revenge killing.  In his application form he alleges - I mean he states it clearly that if you attack him or one of his members of his families, he seeks revenge right away and in his evidence today he made it clear that from the time his grandfather died to when they had a meeting it was the family has always been involved.
	Further, the deceased was also part or a member of their family, they weren't related so it's my submission that this was a revenge killing and not a political killing at all.
	Lastly ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Sorry, just one clarification, you indicated that in his form he doesn't say anything about the political nature of this, he doesn't make reference to the fact that his grandfather was the chairperson of the IFP and that the deceased was the chairperson of the ANC but I won't disrupt your argument any further other than to point out that he does in fact say that.

MS THABETE: My argument was that it wasn't the fact that he doesn't make any reference to the fact that his grandfather was a political leader, my argument was that he doesn't say anything about the fact that his grandfather was killed during an IFP/ANC attack.  It's looks like people came to attack his grandfather and he had hid behind the house when this happened, it doesn't give a reflection that there was actually an ANC/IFP fight during the time his grandfather was ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Fair enough, I misunderstand your point you're making, that's fine.

MS THABETE: Lastly, for all we know the applicant has got a very wild imagination I would like to submit because at one stage he talks about the fact that he didn't see who shot his grandfather because the people who were attacking were so far away and he then changes to say he is not sure whether Ben Nkosi was there or not when his grandfather was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: He was sure, he was quite sure that Ben Nkosi was there.

MS THABETE: Firstly he said they were far away so he couldn't have been sure then he changed to say no he was sure that Ben Nkosi was there when his grandfather was shot so there seems to be a lot of contradictions and on those bases I would recommend that amnesty be not granted.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't he sure that Mr Nkosi was there, the only thing he wasn't sure about is the role he had during the fight and he wasn't sure who had actually shot his grandfather but he was able to identify Mr Nkosi as having been present during the fight that subsequently led to his father being shot, his grandfather being shot.

MS THABETE: I'm indebted to Madame Chair and Ms Thabete, you may mention that it's not clear from both the written application, the written application form as well as the affidavit that the attack on the grandfather was as a result of two groups meeting and fighting, it was as though the grandfather was in fact attacked at his home by a particular group which was led by Mr Nkosi.  I think you correctly made that and that's what I make out of both the written application form and the affidavit which obviously is conflicting with the version given by Mr Ndlangamandla during his vive voce evidence.

MS THABETE: That's my submission Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, do you have any response?

MR CLAASSEN IN REPLY: I have not response Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen and Ms Thabete, this Committee will be able to pronounce it's decision tomorrow.  There is no need however for Mr Ndlangamandla to be present when we so announce that decision because you will be here to represent his interest.  We will make sure however that we give you all the
facilities as to be able to communicate our decision I think through whatever means that will be able to expedite him to know about our decision tomorrow.  So our decision will be made in this regard tomorrow morning or during the course of the day.

MR CLAASSEN: I appreciate that Madame Chair.

MS THABETE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that will bring us to the conclusion of our proceedings today.  We note that the time is half past 4, we already have transgressed an important rule that we have been told not to transgress by Correctional Services in having to I think finalise our proceedings on any given day after 4 o'clock.  We would like to apologise, we merely wanted to make sure that we bring these proceedings to a close so that we can make their jobs easier in having to transport one less person tomorrow than Mr Ndlangamandla.  We'll make sure that this does not happen.  So we'll proceed tomorrow with which matter Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: With the matter of Hadebe and Sithomo and hopefully Mtambo if we finish on time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll adjourn these proceedings until tomorrow morning.  What time are we supposed to meet here Mr Claassen, which time will be to your convenience now that we're expecting applicants will be coming from Gauteng.  Shall we say 10 o'clock just to be on the safe side?

MR CLAASSEN: Madame Chair I have spoken to some of the people from Correctional Services and they indicated - I think he says he thinks that Mr Hadebe will not be brought this afternoon but tomorrow morning.  I can only suspect that they would have to leave very, very early in Johannesburg to be here at any early time.  As I have indicated to the Commission I also would just like if they would just afford me the opportunity to speak to Mr Hadebe before the session commences.  I think 10 o'clock sounds very fair.

CHAIRPERSON: We hope it will be brought to the attention of Correctional Services that they must try and get Mr Hadebe to be here before 9 o'clock tomorrow.  One would have expected that arrangements would have been made in anticipation of his application being heard in Nelspruit, for him to be held nearer to Nelspruit.  Ms Thabete will you please ensure that Mr Hadebe is brought here by 9 o'clock to afford Mr Claassen an hour to consult with him so that we can proceed with this application timeously, we don't want to have any delay having to be suffered through the acts of Correctional Services and if there are any delays which are caused to be suffered by Correctional Services, we would appreciate if those could be brought to the attention of this Amnesty Committee.  Thank you.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS