Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Erasmus when you found out or heard that some of the members you have been working under have been implicated at the beginning when you received the first notice with regard to the amnesty application, what did you do?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I myself never received a notice.  Some of the members who had already come to testify at this hearing had received notices, they contacted me, I enquired regarding the legal position of the police officers, I called them together after I had determined that we were entitled to legal representation, and I made an appointment with Mr Wagner.  We made arrangements for these persons on State cost to be transported to Pretoria to speak to the attorney.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus you just explained that you had made arrangements for the members to go to Pretoria with their transport costs paid for by the State, did Mr Motsamai, was he also included among the members for whom you made arrangements?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Was anyone of you at that stage aware of the fact that Mr Motsamai had applied for amnesty before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai here alleged in his evidence that he had been tricked and as I understand his testimony, he alleged that he had thought that he was going to Pretoria in connection with his amnesty application. As far as your knowledge goes is there any truth in this allegation?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chairperson.  When the people came to my office before departure to Pretoria I stated very clearly to all of them that they were going in a group but that every individual, and I indeed asked Mr Wagner this as well, that every person must be in his office in privacy so that they could make statements, each individual out of their own free will.

MR VISSER: You were there, was every member individually and separately spoken to by Mr Wagner?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that is correct Your Honour.  Before Mr Wagner spoke to us individually in his office he explained the legal position with regard to the legislation application for amnesty opposing statements etc with us as a group and after that we each went separately into his office.

UNKNOWN: Was any of the members unhappy with anything that you were told?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No not as far as my knowledge goes.

MR VISSER: Okay you yourself made an affidavit and this affidavit we find on page 18 of Bundle B.  Do you have a copy of that affidavit in front of you and do you affirm the truth and correctness of its contents?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Chair I do have that in front of me and I do confirm the truth.

MR VISSER: And in that affidavit you dealt briefly with the murder of Mr Venter.  Were you at that stage aware of any other allegations against you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair upon the making of this affidavit only the allegation of Mr Venter was what I had been implied in and that was all.

MR VISSER: Okay we will return to that.  I would like you to tell the Committee about Mr NGO.  We know by way of introduction that you were his handler when he was a police informant of the security branch here in Bloemfontein.  Can you briefly start in 1983 when you met with him, sketch those circumstances to the Committee members and take us through the history of Mr Ngo?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I met Mr Ngo in the latter part of 1983; he had been recruited by one of my other colleagues, I think it was WO LD Koch, I'm not entirely certain.  He was brought with another group of persons to the office.  I beg you pardon, the word was not recruited, the people were brought to the office.

MR VISSER: I'm going to interrupt you just to bring in evidence where relevant.  We heard testimony that Mr Morekile had arrested Mr Ngo - sorry I I'm confused with White Mohape Mr Chair, sorry for interrupting. Mr Erasmus will you continue.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair with a member, and I'm certain that it was LD Koch asked me if I could perhaps complete the man's history report and I did so.  After that I entered into a discussion with him and I recruited him then as an informant.

MR VISSER: Sorry I was almost correct.  Testimony had been led that Mr Mbanjane had arrested Mr Ngo.  I'm sorry I've got to restate this; Mr Memani stated to one of the witnesses that Mr Mbanjane had arrested Mr Ngo and introduced him to you.  Can you remember something like that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair whether WO Mbanjane had arrested him, I'm not clear but I think it was a white person and I would say that it was LD Koch who introduced me to him.

MR VISSER: Okay will you continue then?  Sorry for interrupting.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair he was one of the management or executive members of KOSAS, the student organisation which was active at the time and I handled him. In my absence, whether on other tasks or when I was on leave, Supt Terry Shaw handled him.

MR VISSER: So if we refer to the handlers of Mr Ngo we may accept in this committee that we are referring either to you or Mr Shaw and nobody else?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair some of the other members accompanied me during the paying out of the claims of informants but I handled him.

MR VISSER: Okay you may continue.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: This was 1983.  In 1984 he was still an informant and initially my opinion was that it was in the end of '84 but my memory was refreshed here that the attack on him took place at the beginning of 1985; I wasn't in Bloemfontein personally, I received a telephone call on the farm of my parents when I was told of this attack.  Sunday evening when I arrived in Bloemfontein I visited him at Mr Venter's home. I then also with friends of mine arranged, I took him to these friends of mine, the woman was a sister at the hospital and she cleaned his wounds.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus what was indeed - okay let me rephrase - do you have knowledge or can you remember that after he had been released from hospital, had been transported to Mr Venter's house by members of the security branch.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair he was definitely taken from the hospital to Mr Venter's home by members of the security branch but by whom, I can't remember, I don't know.

MR VISSER: You can't remember, okay so after he had been injured -let me rather rephrase, when did you become aware of the existence of Mr PD Venter, the deceased?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I normally met Mr Ngo outside Bloemfontein at Kwaggafontein and one afternoon he told me that on the next day I had to meet him in Rhino Kriel Street.  What was strange to me was the fact that he said he just had something to do there and then he could meet me there.  Since that point in time I met him there regularly in Rhino Kriel Street, I always stopped some distance away from the house and one evening to my surprise Mr Venter came out with him to me and he introduced Mr Venter to me.  From that point onwards, many times through Mr Venter I quickly arranged emergency appointments with Mr Ngo.

MR VISSER: Was this Mr Venter an activist?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair definitely not.

MR VISSER: Was he involved in trade unions or labour matters at the railways as far as your knowledge goes?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Could you tell whether a file on him existed at the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No there was definitely not a file.

MR VISSER: It was alleged that Mr Venter was an informant of yours?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No that is untrue Mr Chair.