Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I don't know because my boy didn't tell me anything.

REV XUNDU: Were there police at the funeral to observe what was happening?   They used to observe activists' funerals. You mentioned that these boys went to attend Mrs Tsili's funeral, after that there was a toyi-toyi, what I am asking is that was Mrs Tsili a member of a political organisation or were the police observing the funeral?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I don't know about that Sir.

REV XUNDU: You said that you sent your son to the shop and you heard that he was shot, was it the usual thing that when you send your child to the shop they would be shot?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes.

REV XUNDU: In other words you are saying that the police were just killing everyone?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes that is correct.

REV XUNDU: Your son was also a victim of this police act?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Was there a court case?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes there was a court case after a while, after his funeral.

REV XUNDU: Were there any police charged?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes the policeman was in the court.  He was testifying against my son.

REV XUNDU: Did he accept that he shot him?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes, he said that the reason for him to shoot my son was that he was leading a dangerous in Q Street, they were throwing stones.  This policeman said that it was then that he decided to shoot him to protect the White men in the hippo.

REV XUNDU: Was that the end of the case?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Did you receive any compensation?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: No.

REV XUNDU: Do you have a request to the Commission to forward to the State President?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Can you please repeat your question Sir?

REV XUNDU: Sir maybe you have a request to the State President due to this incident because you lost your son?  Do you have anything to say to the Commission so that we can forward your request to the President?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes I do have a request.  This child was supporting me at home.  I told the statement-takers my request because they wanted me to say what I want from the government and I told them, I told the statement-takers.

REV XUNDU: What did you tell them?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I told them that I wanted the government to assist me, to give me R90 000.

REV XUNDU: Do you have any request except the one you've just mentioned, do you have anything else to add?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: (...indistinct)

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairperson I think we are finished.  Let me hand over to you now.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsiki Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I would like to address this question to the Tsili family.  Mr Tsili you said that during the court case, did you go there to listen?

MR TSILI: Yes.

MR SANDI: Who represented you?

MR TSILI: Nobody represented us, they were just talking to us.  They showed us the police who killed my wife.  They said that he was Tungata from Port Elizabeth.  He was a tall man.

MR SANDI: You say that you were not represented by a lawyer?

MR TSILI: There was a lawyer but I don't remember clearly who it was because I was still confused at that time because of the loss.  I don't know who hired the lawyer because I did not hire a lawyer but there was a lawyer representing us, the one who it was said he was defeated by the State attorney.

MR SANDI: I want to make sure about this Mr Tungata.  Do you have his full names?

MR TSILI: No I don't know his full names, but they just showed us him.

MR SANDI: You said that in court Mr Tungata accepted the responsibility to say that he was the one who shot your wife?

MR TSILI: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did he give reasons?

MR TSILI: Yes. He said that he was shooting students who were running away, the bullet shot my wife.

MR SANDI: Why was he shooting students?

MR TSILI: He said that he was shooting them because they did not want to attend classes, he wanted them to go back to school.

MR SANDI: You mean that they were standing them, they were shooting them, telling them to go back to school?

MR TSILI: Yes they were shooting them and there were dogs all over.

MR SANDI: Let us go back to R800.  The police who said that you were supposed to pay R800 is there a written order that they showed you from court stating that you have to pay R800?

MR TSILI: No there was no written order.  We were in the police station, we were not in court at the time.

MR SANDI: Did you receive a letter at home saying that you must pay R800?

MR TSILI: No because I told them that I am not going to pay the money.  They asked me whether I was - I had a car or a house.  I told them that whether I have a car or not is not their business because I am not going to pay this money.

MR SANDI: This Mr Tungata did you hear anything about him?

MR TSILI: No, I last saw him in court in my wife's case.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Tsili, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nombiba I have a few questions for you.  I want to know Sir who was representing you in court, who was the lawyer representing you in court?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: There was no lawyer representing us.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not hire a lawyer, were you not interested or were you not able to afford a lawyer?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: The reason is that at that time the police said that I was a killer, I was the cause of all the trouble in Grahamstown. That is the reason that I did not hire a lawyer because all the lawyers were under the government.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir for that answer.  We know that many people lost their people, they couldn't get lawyers because they thought that the lawyers were representing the system.   You mentioned that there was a policeman who said that he was the one who shot your son, do you still remember his name?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I heard his name being mentioned, his name was Philip.  I also saw the name on my son's death certificate, the name of the people who killed my son.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible for you to give us the death certificate so that we can make copies?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: We gave the death certificate to the statement-takers.

CHAIRPERSON: When this policeman gave evidence he said that he shot your son because he was leading a dangerous mob?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes. He said that they were carrying stones.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he defending himself or what was happening?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: He said that the reason for shooting him is that he was defending the White people in the hippos it is when he decided to shoot my son.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that he was defending White people who were in the hippo?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes, their soldiers and their police.

CHAIRPERSON: They had weapons, guns with them?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They were being protected from children who had stones?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was your son?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: At that time he was 19 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: But as I am reading in the newspapers they say that he was 15 years old, I think they just assumed, I know that he was 19 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he's your son?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes he was my son, I was surprised that they just assumed, they did not consult me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Tsili and Mr Nombiba, I can see that you are old people and I believe that old people are wise, under all the circumstances you have just explained to us, the incidents that happened to you as these two families, do you have anything to give us, or do you have any advice to give to the government to make sure that such incidents are not going to happen again, that the police are there to protect people, they are not there to kill children and women, do you have anything to say concerning this Mr Tsili and Mr Nombiba?