Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MR MGXAJI: I also take it that you agree with me that it could not have been the political objective of the ANC to maim and muzzle Mr Mapipa, certainly not.  Would you agree with me?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I agree with you.

MR MGXAJI: And that as a member therefore of the ANC, you could not have been carrying out its brief, would you also agree with me?

FUNDISELE GULENI: My objective at the time, I was carrying out whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean now?

INTERPRETER: I was furthering the objectives of the ANC.

MR MGXAJI: My Lord, may I just whisper to the victim My Lord?    I am indebted to His Lordship, just one last question.   Mr Guleni, the murder of Mr Mapipa, it not having been a brief from the organisation you belonged to, would you deny that such an act was purely a criminal act, not actuated by any sensible political reason?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I disagree with that statement, and I have no other reason to commit that criminal act, therefore I disagree with you.

MR MGXAJI: Thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGXAJI

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Mgxaji?

MR MGXAJI: My Lord, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: I will come back to you now, I just want to give Mr Mapoma a chance.  Mr Mapoma, are there any questions that you have available to ask?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions available Chairperson, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, have you got any re-examination?

MR MGIDLANA: It is just on one or two aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you.  Do you know how many people there were in this Mr Mapipa's motor vehicle?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I am not certain about the number, but I think there were two people that were in the front seat of the car.

MR MGIDLANA: Before the attack, do you know how many people were there in that motor vehicle?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I cannot say as to how many because the car that we were driving in, was driving at a high speed, a very high speed.

MR MGIDLANA: In your own motor vehicle, how many were you?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The four of us.

MR MGIDLANA: As you and Mzwandile approached Mr Mapipa's motor vehicle, where did you leave the two others, if you left them?

FUNDISELE GULENI: They were left next to the high-road where we were hiding.  They were left behind because one of them refused to go there with us.

MR MGIDLANA: Was there anything that you personally expected or were going to gain from the killing of Mapipa, just as a person?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I was not expecting to gain anything.

MR MGIDLANA: That is all, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgxaji, is it your instructions to insist in investigating the possibility of that witness being called?

MR MGXAJI: My Lord?

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking is it your instructions to insist in investigating the possibility of that other witness being called?

MR MGXAJI: Not from the instruction that has just been whispered to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.    Thank you, you are excused.

MR MGIDLANA: Judge may I indicate that there is only one other applicant that I wish to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Call your client back please, we want to ask one question.  Mr Guleni, there are so many people who have died and suffered in the past of this country and many of the instances were for utter nonsense, circumstances created by actually apartheid, the manipulation of the apartheid agents.   I want to ask you this question that irrespective of what we find here, whether we grant or not, what are the prospects as far as you are concerned, what would be your attitude to meeting the families of the victims and the victims themselves in an attempt to live together in this country of ours and make peace with them and they make peace with you?  What would be your attitude?

FUNDISELE GULENI: If that was possible, I would highly appreciate that and that would make me happy because the aim for me to come here and apply for amnesty voluntarily is because I saw this Commission as an opportunity to clear out our consciences that were the result of things that took place in those times, and we are so regretful about those.  I would highly appreciate that because my aim is if it is possible, all those organisations that were not having the same opinion or idea of have their differences, be given a time to reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgxaji and Mr Malusi, are you two prepared to investigate the possibility of a private meeting with victims and the applicants?

MR MALUSI: Certainly Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what the successes are going to be, but I think for reasons of the future of this country, attempts should be made to stop that madness if it still exists in the area.

MR MALUSI: I agree fully Chairperson, I will investigate.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you Mr Mgidlana, be prepared to assist that process?

MR MGIDLANA: Certainly Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I leave it in your people's capable hands.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you.  There is one more witness and even though the time is about four o'clock, I don't think his testimony would be very long.

CHAIRPERSON: We are finishing tonight.

MR MGIDLANA: I am happy to hear that one, Chairperson.
	May I then ask to call Lusindiso Poyo.