Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR BLACK: And the window which you tried to open and someone trying to close the window, where was that, in the kitchen?

MRS MASUPA: It was in the bedroom and I had come there for the second time, after taking Mantha out and I was trying to rescue the rest of the children.

MR BLACK: And yourself, were you burning?  Were you in flames?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, I was in flames.

MR BLACK: And you say there was someone on the outside trying to keep the window closed when you were trying to open it?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.  He pushed the window and said you dogs, voertsek, get back into the house and burn to death and the children were screaming inside the house.

MR BLACK: Right, and then what happened to you?  Sorry, did you say you left, you got out?

MRS MASUPA: We got out of the house because the house was now in flames and the flames were starting to touch the bedrooms and we went outside the house itself.

MR BLACK: And yourself, were you also in flames?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, I was in flames at that time, but I was better off because I was wearing woollen clothes and they were not all ignited, but the other children were badly burned.

MR BLACK: What happened to the two little children, one aged about one year old and the other a few months old?

MRS MASUPA: When we went outside, Mr Mbatha was trying to
break the window, the front window and rescue the children.  So he rescued the children through the window as well as his wife.  They were the only ones who were able to get out 
through the windows.

MR BLACK: That is Mr Richard Mbatha?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And his wife's name, what is her name?

MRS MASUPA: Her name is Elsaphina Mbatha.

MR BLACK: So Mr Richard Mbatha made sure that the little children got out first, he passed them through the window?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And what is your, what happened after that, after the whole house was suddenly in flames?

MRS MASUPA: Thereafter we were looking for Godfrey and we couldn't get him, we went all over the place, even to the neighbours looking for Godfrey.  And we discovered that the other children ran to the neighbours' places and that is where we got them.  We looked for Moses but we couldn't get him, only to find that he had gone to search for some medical attention.

MR BLACK: Now Godfrey is your son, is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, that is true.

MR BLACK: And, so then did medical attention arrive or help arrive?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, the people came, the neighbours came.  Even the ones who came thereafter, they were not able to help us because the house was in flames by then and they didn't know how to help us.

MR BLACK: And there were people trapped inside the house, is that correct?  There were people inside the house while it was burning?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, there were people inside the house whilst it was burning.

MR BLACK: But you managed to pull Christina out, that's
Mantha, out of the flames of the kitchen?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, I was able to do that because she had fallen on the ground and she had lifted her hands up.  I managed to pull her out.

MR BLACK: But she died subsequently, is that so?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: So you lost three daughters there, Christina Masupa, Eunice Shabangu and Melzinah Mbatha, is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: As far as the contents of your house is concerned, was anything saved?

MRS MASUPA: The contents were badly damaged, because even now there are some of the remains of the badly damaged furniture, I had to start from scratch since that day.  And I had to refurbish the house.

MR BLACK: Now, I just want to Mrs Masupa, you were working at that time, is it not so?

MRS MASUPA: That is true, I was working.

MR BLACK: And what type of work were you doing?

MRS MASUPA: We were, I was working at Hendler & Hendler, I was decorating pots.

MR BLACK: Yes.  So you didn't have your own business and you weren't a wealthy person, is that so?

MRS MASUPA: I didn't have anything I was just an ordinary person.

MR BLACK: And you lost everything in that fire and you had to start rebuilding your house even, is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: Mrs Masupa, I just want to get onto some of the things which have been said  by Mr Ndlovu.  He says that
when he and his friends entered that house, they had quite a discussion with you and the other people in the kitchen.  They discussed the behaviour of Hendrik, they informed you that they were going to burn down the house, they made a number of attempts to persuade the inhabitants of that house to in fact, vacate the house.  Did that happen?

MRS MASUPA: It did not happen like that.  Because if it happened like that, we would have been able to save ourselves and survive, because we didn't care much about the property, our lives were much more important than the property itself.  We would have been able to get out had they given us a chance.  They never even wanted to speak, even when Mantha pleaded with them to switch on the lights, they did not want to do so, they went on with their mission.

MR BLACK: He also says that the kitchen door, there was something wrong with the kitchen door handle and it was difficult for them to get out, was that the case?

MRS MASUPA: That is a blatant lie.  And I would have liked the people to go and see the door because there is nothing that was wrong with the door, it is still even like that, even now.  Nothing has changed and the door was working properly and in proper condition.

MR BLACK: And you say that when they got out of the door, someone was actually holding the door, trying to pull it closed and you were trying to pull it open?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And did they close the door at one stage?  Was the door actually pulled closed ...

MRS MASUPA: Yes, they were able to close the door.

MR BLACK: And then they held the door closed and you tried to pull it?

MRS MASUPA: That is true, because when I tried to open the door, I discovered that it was very tight and I pulled harder, that is when the door got open.

MR BLACK: Yes, and in fact, you gave evidence in the earlier court hearing and at page 64 of the court record, you make mention it is between lines 1 and 5, that you pulled on the kitchen door and you felt there was somebody on the other side holding it, but you later on managed to open it.

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: The children Melzinah Mbatha, who were they?

MRS MASUPA: They are my relatives, they had come to visit, they were from the rural areas.

MR BLACK: Okay, were they also injured?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, they were injured.

MR BLACK: Right.

MRS MASUPA: Eunice is my sister's daughter, she was staying with me at that time.

MR BLACK: And Richard Mbatha and Trevor Cindi were also injured by the fire, is that so?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: And Catherine, apart from your other three, your three daughters, Catherine Nkosi also was killed in the fire?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.  Catherine is Trevor's mother.

MR BLACK: Now, if I can just return to another aspect.  Hendrik Masupa is your son, is that not so?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And he will testify and I just want you to confirm
it that for about six hears he hadn't been sleeping at your home, but that he used to sleep after work at his grandfather's shopping complex, where he used to work after 
school, is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: That is true, he was asked by his grandfather to come and assist at the shop and he would also help him in return with taking him to school and we reached an agreement that he should go and stay with his grandfather and I felt that he would be safe if he worked there in stead of joining the gangsters.

MR BLACK: Was Hendrik ever a member of any gangsters or comrades, either gangsters or an organisation?