Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That is correct.   In the beginning I said it was a long time ago, I can't remember precisely.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Zeelie, Stanza Bopape, did he offer resistance against the arrest the day he was arrested by you?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, again I cannot say yes or no, I cannot remember exactly what happened.

MR RAUTENBACH: Regarding that aspect, so you have no independent memory on whether he offered resistance or not?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Zeelie, the information you received as far as ST is concerned and Walk Tall, can I just, can you clarify that, were you told that the person you're looking for is Walk Tall or ST?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I accepted like I said forward, this something that happened a long time ago and I do not want to talk about each aspect word for word, because if I say yes, then it's yes, and if I say no, it's a no, and then it comes under dispute, and therefore I'd rather stick to the fact that I cannot really remember and I cannot really answer.

MR RAUTENBACH: But Mr Zeelie, that's exactly what my colleague asked you.   If you cannot remember, you don't have to tell us a long story, all you have to say is, "I cannot remember".

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Thank you, Your Honour.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Zeelie, can you remember if you had any other information at the time of the arrest concerning Bopape, except for the names and the fact that he was also known as ST and Walk Tall?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.

MR RAUTENBACH: In your testimony you mentioned a flat which had to be searched?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: Can I just learn the following from you, can you remember that you had to accompany people to go and search this specific flat?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: So a flat had to be searched, a person didn't have to be arrested?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, it was specifically a flat that had to be searched for people who might have been ANC members.

MR RAUTENBACH: Let me just (indistinct) this, do you remember that it was a flat that had to be searched and that ST and Walk Tall had to be arrested?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I mentioned earlier, yes, West Rand said that there were ANC terrorists, possible ANC terrorists.

MR RAUTENBACH: But did you have a name?   You had the name ST, Walk Tall.   When was your instruction that if you searched the flats and you found a person with this name you had to arrest him?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It wasn't an instruction.

MR RAUTENBACH: What was it?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was a request from West Rand to accompany them.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now tell us exactly in basic language, what did you have to go and do there?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I already said, they asked us to accompany them to a flat where there were possible ANC terrorists, and I understand that there was a person ST or Walk Tall, it's only one person, but as far as I carried information concerning the ANC, they moved in cells, where there could be more of them together.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now let's return to the question, the question was when you went out to go and search the flat, whether it was an instruction or a request, did you have such an instruction or request that not only did you have to search the flat, but also arrest anyone that was in that flat?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, that's the way I answered.

MR RAUTENBACH: Any person, it doesn't matter who they were?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No any person as a word was used.

MR RAUTENBACH: At that stage, when you arrested those people and you walked out of there, the only information you had was that there's a person with the name ST or Walk Tall, and that these people possibly had something to do with the ANC, is that correct.

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: Did you have any more information?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.

MR RAUTENBACH: And when you walked out of the flat and somebody stopped you, let's say, for example, it was a senior officer, and he asked you, "In terms of what, why did you arrest these people?", what would you have answered?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It's because I found literature there, Your Honour.

MR RAUTENBACH: But this is exactly what I cannot understand.   You say you had the instruction to arrest people you found there anyway, on grounds of what would you have arrested them if there were not found literature but you didn't have information, you only had a name?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I already said that I had a request and that there were possible ANC terrorists in the flat, and that was enough for me.

MR RAUTENBACH: And you also took Nkosi because of the fact that he was also in the room?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: And the fact that there was banned literature, that's enough reason.

MR RAUTENBACH: But you're saying that even if there wasn't banned literature, you'd still have taken him?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, the possibility exists that we would have taken him to question him.   The law on internal safety, if somebody knew something about an ANC terrorist and he doesn't report it to the police, he's also, he might be guilty.

MR RAUTENBACH: But at that stage you didn't know that he was an ANC terrorist?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, but that's why there's interrogation.

MR RAUTENBACH: I don't want to stand still too long at this issue, but the actual goal of the arrestation was to question them, to interrogate them?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: West Rand wanted to interrogate them, not me.

MR RAUTENBACH: I'll repeat the question.The actual objective of that arrest was to interrogate these people?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: This takes us to the next point, these people are arrested and West Rand has these people, you are a senior officer and Mr Van Niekerk as well?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The lieutenant was a junior officer.

MR RAUTENBACH: How many years experience did you have at that stage?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: 16 years.

MR RAUTENBACH: In that unit you worked, at John Vorster Square, how many officers were there, except for General Erasmus?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: There were quite a few officers, maybe 10, 12, maybe more.

MR RAUTENBACH: Did you work in the same division as Van Niekerk?   Who else was in that division, which other officers?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: If I'm correct, I think there were about four officers.

MR RAUTENBACH: And how did it happen that you and Van Niekerk made the decision that the two of you would go and fetch this person at John Vorster?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I already testified that I did not go specifically to fetch him.   I accompanied Van Niekerk to Roodepoort because there was also other things we had to do at the same time.   I was of assistance in bringing Bopape back to John Vorster after he had talked with Kleynhans.

MR RAUTENBACH: I'd just like to know, how did it happen that you and Van Niekerk were asked to fetch Bopape?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No, I was not asked to interrogate him.

MR RAUTENBACH: Well why did you return with him?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Because of talks that was held between Van Niekerk and West Rand, he was transferred, I think there were talks between the commanders and that John Vorster would help with the interrogation, I personally was not asked.

MR RAUTENBACH: So you were never asked to interrogate him, you had nothing to do with it?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: You had nothing to do with the interrogation, you were not directly involved?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I was not directly involved.

MR RAUTENBACH: Then I'd like to know, this information which you obtained during the course of the interrogation, can you tell us now when you take him back from Roodepoort to John Vorster Square, what information did you have at that stage with regards to Bopape?