Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MOSES VELI LLALE: As I've already pointed out that what made me lift myself from the ground was this noise which was coming from Jaguar's firearm and I ran towards the opposite direction leaving Jagwa behind and as I was running I could hear that there was more gunfire. The gunfire was intensifying.
	I went into some alcove. I've written it in my application. I climbed on top of the alcove trying to get a view as to what was happening. I could see the marchers were going past the pharmacy, they were at the pharmacy at that moment because I am just going to illustrate this. When you are on the parapet there are certain places that you do see or certain areas that you are able to see. You are able to see part of the street up to the pavement and where the shops start and the person that I had seen earlier on with the red T-shirt on was running on the other side of the pharmacy.

MR TIPP: When you say he was running on the other side of the pharmacy do you mean he was running on the other side of the road past the pharmacy, is that what you are saying?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is what I mean.

MR TIPP: What was he doing this man with the red T-shirt?

MOSES VELI LLALE: There was a lot of gunfire at that stage but what I cannot verify is whether this gun was the one that was being fired but the way he brandished the weapon I think he was shooting but I cannot confirm because the sound of that gunfire resembled the sound that's been made by an AK when it is being fired.

MR TIPP: What did you do?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I had a shotgun. I would like to point out that as I am saying this it was a very fast event. It happened within seconds. But the manner in which I am going to illustrate it, it really happened fast so I stood up, I cocked my gun and I pointed towards the direction of the man and I started firing.

MR TIPP: At that time how many shots did you fire?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Shotgun is not like an automatic rifle you fire once and you have to reload or change. I think I shot only once, I fired once.

MR TIPP: Where did you aim when you fired your shotgun for the first time?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As I've already said these people were running very fast but I was pointing towards the direction of the man with the red T-shirt and that's when I fired and shot.

MR TIPP: Immediately after firing what did you do?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I was also scared of this man. I went down quickly and I started cocking my gun once more and I lifted myself up and the situation had now changed, because before the marchers were running towards Plein but now, the second time around, there was a lot of confusion. They were running in all directions some were going forth, some were going to the sides, and I realised that I did not shoot this man the first time around. So there were a lot of confusion at that junction. And people were running in all directions.
	The very same man who had the weapon that I had referred to was now reversing somehow.

MR TIPP: When you say reversing, what do you mean?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When I say he was reversing what I mean is, he was going backwards, his body was facing towards Plein Street. I think he did realise that there was somebody who was firing from the parapet. He looked very confused at that stage. He did not know which angle to concentrate, whether to concentrate on the parapet or at another direction. And there were other people with assegaais as well as shields and they were not going forth at that time. They were milling all around the place running to every direction.

MR TIPP: When you say he was reversing do I understand from your explanation that he was moving backwards with his with his body still faced towards Plein Street that he was somehow retreating, is that what you are saying?

MOSES VELI LLALE: According my observation at the time, because I could still hear some gunfire, as I pointed out that this happened within a short space of time, I don't know whether he's the one that was firing but I could hear some gunfire and I thought he was trying to get some place to shield himself or to hide. Because where he was standing before he was very exposed, so I thought he was actually looking for some place to hide so that he can fire without us seeing him. That's what I meant.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale I don't know if you've heard my question or understood it. My question is when you say he was reversing are you saying he was he was retreating? Is that is that what you're saying?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't know, maybe it is the way I am expressing myself. When I say he was now retreating his body was not facing me his front was facing another direction. The direction I am pointing. He was looking in front and up front as I am indicating so he was going backwards.

MR TIPP: And he was still looking in the general direction of Plein Street is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that's why I say I don't want to confine myself to the that he was facing one direction. He was first facing us as well as Plein Street. He was not stable in one direction. I think he was looking to other people who were in the front and at the same time trying to concentrate on us as I am indicating, but he was actually going backwards somehow. He was no longer coming straight to us.

MR TIPP: But what did you then do at that point?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I fired the second time, that was my second bullet now, towards his direction. Immediately after having shot I did not look as to what had happened because I thought that he would direct his fire at me and then I went down.

MR TIPP: Why did you fire the first shot in the direction of this man with, with the red T-shirt?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I never had time to refer to all the instructions. What brought me to the parapet was that it had been said before that if it could happen that such a situation prevails, we at the parapet, our main job was to try and prevent these people from getting into Shell House.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Llale the question is why did you shoot to the direction of the man with the red T-shirt? Please don't get carried away.

MOSES VELI LLALE: The reason why I shot was that I saw this man as a threat to the frontline security guys. The manner in which he was running and the fact that there was some gunfire I realise that they were in danger, we were in danger as well, that's why I shot at him.

MR TIPP: After you came up again just before you fired the second shot you saw that the man was still there but at this point you say he was reversing, why did you fire the second shot?

MOSES VELI LLALE: It didn't really occur to me that he was running away. I told myself that he wanted to position himself better in order to aim and shoot at us, that's why I shot at his direction once more.

MR TIPP: What happened after you fired the second shot?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I went down the parapet and as I approached once more he was not in my view. I couldn't see him properly and a number of people were lying on the ground on that very same direction at which I was firing. There were lot of people on the pavement lying on the ground. I could see that some were injured but the majority was lying on the ground.

MR TIPP: Why did you not fire again?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I realised that there was no reason for me to continue shooting because the person that I perceived as a dangerous person much more than the others....

MR LAX: I didn't hear the answer.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I'll try to be slow I am a fast speaker. The reason why I did not continue shooting or shooting for the third time is that the first time I shot I did not see this person and the rest of the people now were lying on the ground. It was only a few people who were running away from the scene, and I did not perceive them as a threat because a number of them were now lying on the ground now and I felt they posed no danger to us in that position or situation.