Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not go inside because I was washing a car outside, that is the first reason.  The second reason, I was avoiding the fact that if I discovered that these were members of the UDF, that was going to make me very furious, that is my reason.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Hlasa, you also told the Committee that much as this was your first killing or an incident where people were killed, nevertheless you were involved in some other incidents where you had to protect your members.  Can you - you spoke about Randfontein, Alexandra and I think Dlamini or something.  At Dlamini, I mean at Randfontein, who were you defending and what happened there?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We had our comrades there, comrade Xlomiso was the then President and they used to phone us and tell us that we're being attacked and we would go and assist.  Every time when we arrived we would find them in a group and the members of the UDF would come and fight us and we would defend ourselves.  That is an incident in Randfontein.
	There is yet another incident at comrade Jeff's place in Moletsani.  We defended a house that was going to be burnt because members of SOSCO arrived and they found people inside the house, it was ourselves.  I do not know whether they were many.  We shot and they dispersed.
	In Alexandra we went to comrade James Chauke's house.  There was fighting and we defended the house.  After we had left they came back and burnt the house.  I think the comrades were weakening just after we left.

MR TLOUBATLA: In these incidents where you were defending these properties or the lives of these people, what used to happen?  Was there just a shootout in the streets?  You know, you are just simply saying you went there, you defended, I just want the specifics.  How did the defence go about?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We received a telephone call from Alexandra.  Sometimes information would leak that tonight there's going to be an attack, then we went to Alexandra and we stayed at James Chauke's house and they arrived at night and we had firearms.  We would not even wait for them to arrive at the house, we would shoot just to repel them.  I did not aim because I was not trained in the use of firearms, we would just shoot so that they run away.  This also happened Kabelo Lingani's home in Moletsani.  If there is anyone who was injured I do not know but we shot.  I shot until the magazine was empty and they wall ran away.

MR TLOUBATLA: That is before this particular incident, was the general pattern that you adopted?  You waylaid them in a specific house and they would come and then you'd start shooting, was that the general pattern you followed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes.  When we had information we would be in a position to defend the house.  If we didn't get information the house would be burnt or people would die.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there many such incidents which occurred when you had some confrontation with members of UDF and its affiliates?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in some instances, was property damaged and/or people killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, property was destroyed in many instances.

CHAIRPERSON: And did some of these incidents take place before the killing of the victims, of your victims?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: All these activities took place before the incident that brings me here.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see the burning of Lingani's house as part of the continuous conflict between AZAPO and UDF and its affiliates?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct, it was a continuation of the conflict.

MR TLOUBATLA: Before I even continue, you personally and your family, were you ever affected by this, by the violence?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes.  My mother relocated to East Rand, she  left Soweto.

MR TLOUBATLA: What had happened when your mother was compelled to leave Soweto to the East Rand?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: She was afraid of the attacks and the harassment from the Security Branch.

MR TLOUBATLA: These attacks or counter attacks on each other, did they always invariably happen at night or did some of the incidents happen during the day?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Many of them happened at night but I remember there was an incident that took place at Sinawani during the day, it was around 4 or 5 o'clock.

MR TLOUBATLA: That incident, what happened at that incident that happened during the day at four?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We had a meeting at St Hilda's Church and they came to attack us.  Fortunately we had firearms and we defended ourselves, we shot and they ran away.

MR TLOUBATLA: When you say you shot when you defended yourself, you mean you shot, I mean you fired shots at their direction and they ran away?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We shot at their direction.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then, this incident, although it happened during the day, didn't the police intervene or something, let's say this specific one at St Hilda's Church?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The police didn't even arrive.  I think the uniformed police were aware of the situation and they were afraid of coming in but the security branch used to come into such situations.

MR TLOUBATLA: Let's go back now to this incident at Lingani's house.   The interrogation, you say you didn't participate in the interrogation of these boys personally, but do you know how the interrogation was conducted?  Did you get information thereafter how the interrogation was conducted?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not know.

MR TLOUBATLA: And thereafter, after the interrogation had stopped, your leadership had come in, what happened, where did you go?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We put them in two cars and we drove to Showela at comrade Glen's house who was part of the leadership at that time.  From comrade Glen's house they were taken in two groups.  The first group, I was in the first group even though I do not remember who the members of the first group were.  We left with them and we went to the veld.  That's ...[intervention]

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, I just want to find out something.  When you transported these people, Jeff's or Lingani's place, were is it and where did you travel to?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Jefferson Lingani's house is in Orlando West.  We left Orlando West for Showela.

MR TLOUBATLA: And the distance, what kind of distance are we talking of between Lingani's house and Showela?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Plus minus 10 kilometres.

MR TLOUBATLA: Fine.  When these people were ...[indistinct] I mean, I suppose that you were the owner of one of the cars in which they were travelling or they were transported, you probably must have seen these boys when they were put into your car,  is that so?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I saw them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did they look normal or were they injured, were they bleeding, were they crying, what was the, how were they?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It looked like they've been assaulted.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, and then from Lingani's house where did you go to?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Went to comrade Glen's house in Showela.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right.  On your arrival there, what did you do?  Did the interrogation continue, what happened when you arrived at the destination?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: There was a caucus and it was discussed, the way forward and it was decided that they should be killed immediately because it was already late.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then amongst yourselves ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike was not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the caucus taking place, is it at Glen's house or somewhere else?

MR TLOUBATLA: At which house did you go?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The caucus was at Glen's house.  I think we were in the kitchen and they were in the dining room.

CHAIRPERSON: Why to Glen's house, why were they taken to Glen's house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not remember, but what I do remember is that Glen was one of the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did he hold?