Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR NGCOBO: He was always involved.  I know many ANC supporters who were not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear the translation please.  Can the answer be repeated?  Can the answer be repeated because I can't hear the interpretation.

MR NGCOBO: I said Mfanafuthi was well known as the perpetrator of violence.  I also said I know many other ANC supporters who were not involved in violence.

MR DE KLERK: Well, your brother's son now gave you information that Mfanafuthi passed your house, what did you do then?

MR NGCOBO: I decided to look for these people because it was during the day.  I then called other IFP supporters like Dodo Mbambo, Macandane Shazi and Mshengu.  I asked the small boy to tell my friends what was said.  We then went to Hlophe's house where these boys were.  I met the father Hlophe outside, and I greeted him very politely.  I asked him where the boys were and he showed me the hut.  I went there, and on my way I met his wife.  I also politely greeted her and asked the same question.  She showed me where the boys were.  I found about five boys there.  I then said to them; "Sithombe that you were looking for is now here." The people who were accompanying me did not enter the hut.  I then started shooting.  Pandemonium took place, with some of them trying to hide under the bed.  I shot and shot until I was satisfied, and then I left the scene.

MR DE KLERK: Sorry, may I interrupt?  I can't hear the translation, it's too soft and simultaneous with the evidence here.
	Mr Ngcobo, just start again.  You enter the hut - and please explain to the Commission fully as you remember it, what happened in that hut?  How many shots did you fire, can you remember which firearm you had with you, what happened?

MR NGCOBO: When I got into the kraal, I met the elders.  After greeting them, I asked them where the boys were and they showed me.  When I got there, I told then that Sithombe that they were looking for had arrived.  They stood up to run out of the hut, and I started shooting.  I do not know how many times I shot, but three people died.  One Zulu, got injured and the other one ran away unscathed.  I felt bad, because there are two others, namely a Cele boy who was schooling at Ulundi, and Maxwell Zulu, who I killed unintentionally.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me the names of those who were injured unintentionally.

MR NGCOBO: It was Cele, I cannot remember his first name, and Maxwell Zulu.  They were just there to smoke dagga and were never involved in this.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you not just shoot the one you were looking for?  I'm not saying that you ought to have done it in the first place but if you were determined to shoot, why didn't you just shoot the man?

MR NGCOBO: When I arrived there, I had seen this boy Cele the previous day.  We talked and he introduced himself as Cele boy from Ulundi.  I did not know him that well.  I also did not know Maxwell Zulu well.  When they stood up, I thought they wanted to get out from the door where I was.  I then shot randomly to push them back in.  I feel very pity for the parents of these two boys because it was not my intention to kill them.  Even if they say they do not pardon me, there is nothing I can do.  I know that they lost their beloved ones, and I am the cause of that.  I was, however, attacking my enemies, not intending to kill these two.

MR DE KLERK: You say that you were after your enemies, what would you have gained - I have to ask you again, what would you have gained by this specific incident and did you receive any orders to go and do this?

MR NGCOBO: When they said they were looking for me, they wanted to kill me so that their party would prosper, and I was doing the same for my party.  There were rumours that I had died, and when they discovered that I was still alive, they wanted to get me.  I do not want to die, that is why I attacked first.

MR MALAN: Mr Ngcobo, could I just take you back to the names of these individuals.  Did I hear you correctly saying that the two people that were injured were young boys?  Were the others adults, the people that were killed?

MR NGCOBO: No.  They were not that young.  They were no longer young boys.

MR MALAN: Who were you specifically looking for?  You said you were not looking for these two young boys but they were accidentally there, who were you looking for?

MR NGCOBO: I was looking for Mfanafuthi Blose who had said he would get me.  This meant also his friends.  I would not leave him behind.

MR MALAN: Did you know who the people were with them?  Did they tell you the names of the people with them?

MR NGCOBO: I found that the other boys were Hlophe's boys, and I do not know whether Mfanafuthis's brother was also there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you found out, this was after the event you found out who the others were but not at that time?

MR NGCOBO: He mentioned boys from Hlophe's house and Mfanafuthi.  He did not mention the other two boys, Maxwell Zulu and Cele.

MR DE KLERK: During this - if we can maybe just stop at this, during these killings that took place where you were involved, was the only killings that took place in this area or were there also other attacks that you know about, from any side?  The reason why I'm asking this, was there other violence except these murders?

CHAIRPERSON: The days when he was involved?

MR DE KLERK: In that time period.

CHAIRPERSON: In that time period?

MR DE KLERK: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: Yes, there was a lot of violence going on.  I do not know whether I can mention the names of all the people who were killed in the area.

MR DE KLERK: And there are people that died on both sides, ANC and IFP people?

MR NGCOBO: I mean the IFP supporters.  The ANC supporters are those who were killed by me.

MR DE KLERK: ...[inaudible] there were IFP people killed in that time?

MR NGCOBO: There are many I know.  In my area alone, I know of six people.  there are some others from other areas, and there is one family where all the members were killed because they were accused of witchcraft.

MR DE KLERK: You don't have to say all the names but was it a lot of people or just one or two?

MR NGCOBO: That is what happened because the police are also aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: All this is absolutely hearsay isn't it?  We can't just carry on and on on that.

MR DE KLERK: I won't lead it further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Okay, be it as it may, there was a lot of violence.  Okay, on the count nine that was a count of murder on which you were convicted.  On the 7th of June 1991 iZingolweni, you killed Kehla Mshikashika Mkhize, do you remember that?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  I remember.

MR DE KLERK: What happened on that day, the 7th of June 1991?

MR NGCOBO: This very young boy was a problem to me because one day he approached me at the rank and told me that he had heard that me brother Sipho had hired me in his shop.  He said if my brother did not want to see a bad thing happening, he should chase me away from his shop.  This surprised me because Sipho is my brother and he could not be told to chase me away.  He was one of the people who attacked our shop and he was wearing a pinafore.  This happened in broad daylight and he was a real problem.  A spoilt child.  One day in the afternoon, I walked down the river and I was with Phewa.  I went to Mshikashika's house and found young kids there.  I asked then where Mshikashika was and they showed me the hut.  I went there and found the door slightly open.  Mshikashika was with his mother inside.  When he saw me, he knew what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: What was going on?

MR NGCOBO: He was me big enemy.  We were attacking each other.  He ran away, and as he was running...
	His mother just ran away because she saw me attacking her son, for the wrongs he had done.

MR DE KLERK: If you say you finished him off, does it mean that you shot him again?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I think so.  I shot him again.