Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

RUSSELL ALLY: ... that this was mainly and purely personal issues and that there were not many political issues involved in this conflict, that these  deaths that we have heard about, these necklacing, these detentions, these tortures, that these were personal issues and not political issues?

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, I mean sir I am sorry, I think I know personally that a lot of personal issues were involved in this conflict and later on because the other side was weaker than the other.  One side was weaker than the other.  The weaker side ran both to the liberation movements as well as to the security branch, which two forces were not aware of one another's aid to those people but they did help them.  So it involved political issues, yes, later on.  Because people were deceived and pulled or dragged into the situation and of course they had to participate.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahlangu, my central interest here is when people were pulling this way and the other for personal reasons wasn't there a need in terms of what was the opinion
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and the feeling of the general masses in Kwandebele and that should have been the basis of the morality that would be responsible and a guide to our actions all the time.  Because once we say people wanted casinos, people wanted this and we know for a fact that when we go to the masses this is not what the masses want.  The masses say we do not want independence.

MR MAHLANGU: What is the question, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is couldn't this be a binding force in your whole political perceptions and outlook?

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, in the ultimate analysis I had to accept that the people were against independence.  As I said earlier on that people were in the first place convinced that independence would be good for them.  And of course meetings, certain committees were appointed, meetings were held to inform people about the goodness of independence and all that in which committees I was not involved.  I was not even involved in the government at that time.  I am talking about the thing that was done immeditely after the motion of 1982 was adopted in parliament.  And thereafter people, as the date of 11th December 1986 drew nearer, people were made to turn against independence.  So how can I explain such a situation, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but to say that people - because our overriding interest, more especially when it comes to the gross violation of human rights in terms of abduction, killings, maimings, and here we see that being the order of the day, whether Mbcoto was right, whether the comrades were right, but the overriding issue would have been respect and preservation of human life.  So this is what I am saying, that could this have been the greater considerations to have
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when you deal with the people?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, that could have been, that is why we never maimed the people, that is never abducted people, that is why we never killed people but instead people in the name of the organisation to which I also belonged during night time when they could not be seen committed all those acts and attributed them to me and others.  I said I regret that, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No further questions, Mr Mahlangu.

MR MALAN: Chairperson, if you would allow me just to come back to the one and to me it is a double irony.  When you say that you were against the idea of independence in your personal capacity.  You say some other people, without mentioning names, were all for the idea of independence.  They didn't get the positions they wanted so they ran to outside forces to assist them and then they changed their position and they opposed independence.  So the people who were for independence, as you say, were heading up a bloody fight to resist independence and you, who resisted independence, made out a case with P W Botha for independence.  Was there any time between '84 and '87 - '84 when the decision was taken at the level of the Legislative Assembly, and when you met with P W Botha or later that you worked for a revision of that original resolution in parliament to see if it couldn't be turned around?  To me it is so paradoxical that the person who is for independence by your definition fights against independence and the person who believes in not going for independence makes out the case for independence.

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, if I may remind you I think when I went to P W Botha it was not about making out a case in as far as
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independence is concerned.  I think at that time a date had already been set, it had passed without independence having been effected or whatever and therefore I was required from the side of the government to go and state to P W Botha that independence was not in fact postponed or - I don't know how to put it.  But at any rate it was sort of a revival of this issue which we went to Cape Town for but otherwise I was no party to the adoption of the motion of independence during 1982.

MR MALAN: No, sure.  I mean this was '87.  I said as much and that is why I talk also about the second drive for independence, which I asked you to tell us a little about.  We did agree we will pursue more of that at some later stage but this discussions with P W Botha certainly was part of that agenda in some way or another.  But let's pursue that at some other date.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just to add I mean the bigger irony was that at that particular point in time even P W himself, according to that minutes, was saying there doesn't seem to be support for independence and he said go back and do one of two things.  The one was hold a referendum.  You remember?  The other was have a commission of enquiry and the delegation from Kwandebele said we don't want a referendum and they were also reluctant for a commission because they said but the date had already been set for 1986.  We are now past that date and we still don't have independence and the case was being made for independence.  So it is very difficult then to understand why people who were opposed to independence are making such a strong case for independence when even the government is beginning to have doubts because of the conflict situation and also because of the financial
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situation at that point.

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, let me put this clear to the Commission and the audience that Botha's informers were the security branch of the Northern Transvaal who were totally opposed to the government of Kwandebele being headed by the people who were not drawn from the Maboa royal kraal.  Because my other information I have during 1985, June or July, a decision was made after the two princes were flown by a helicopter to Voortrekkerhoogte, that the blou bloed moet die land van Kwandebele regeer.  So on that score anything would be done by the security branch to inform or misinform or disinform P W Botha about the situation in Kwandebele so that before and until die blou bloed aan bewen kom.  Dan mag niks gebeur.

RUSSELL ALLY: But I mean it is important to note that you also, in your capacity as chief minister, had your own contacts with police and with security police and with people in national intelligence, not so?  That you as you say had a relationship with Lerm where he was reporting to you daily, where he was also arresting and detaining people, with people in national intelligence.  So you also had people involved in the security part or the policing part who you also had contact with, is that also not the case?

MR MAHLANGU: People such as?

RUSSELL ALLY: People such as Brigadier Hertzog Lerm.

MR MAHLANGU: Yes I did.  Yes, sir I did have contact with them.  I worked with him.  He was working in the government of Kwandebele so I had a regular contact with him.