Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : By killing this man was to have pure unpollutedmilk?

ANSWER: No sir I didn't want change to come that wayyou know to get real milk, I want to tell this Committee one otherthing that it wasn't intentional to kill the deceased who wasa policeman, I was trying to protect myself because on many occasionsif you were active elsewhere in the struggle there would be manyways of, for the former South African Police to kidnap you andto kill you far away where your relatives would never know whereyou've been thrown.

<UNKNOWN>: : I want to refer to page 3 of your applicationform.   You will remember you filled in an application form on11 June in Kroonstad, do you remember that application form?

ANSWER: I remember it sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm going to take out certain passages in theform, I'll read them out to you and if you don't remember pleaseindicate to me.   First let us start by saying what appears onthe application form is it what you wrote yourself?

ANSWER: No I didn't write this.

<UNKNOWN>: : Somebody wrote for you?

ANSWER: Yes somebody wrote for me.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was this somebody who was writing being toldby yourself to write what appears on the document?

ANSWER: Yes I explained to the person, I first explainedto the person before I could write and thereafter I requestedto go to the telephone because I wanted to call my parents andthen this person wrote and when I came back he was finished andI didn't take the forms to read, he just told me you know theywere fine and I took them and I put them into the locker and thenext day I put them into the post.

<UNKNOWN>: : I will read certain passages from the applicationform and if you feel this is not what you said you must indicateso that we don't pursue it any further.   On page 3 of your applicationform under paragraph 9 (a)(iv) Mr Chairman and members of theCommittee, the last sentence I will quote that sentence.   Itreads
  "He was also known as ANC political opponent".
Do you remember you saying to your scribe that?

ANSWER: I remember sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : What is it that the deceased did for you toarrive at a conclusion that he was ANC political opponent?

ANSWER: As I've indicated from the beginning, I saidwhen we had mass actions complaining against the rent boycottsand organising stay-aways he was a person or they were the peoplewho assaulted the community in a very severe way, irrespectiveof whether it was a child or an elderly person.

<UNKNOWN>: : Would you agree with me if I say if he didas you state, he was simply carrying out one of his obligationsas a police officer and not that he was targeting the ANC at all?

ANSWER: Sir I don't think he was fulfilling his obligations,everytime he would assault people who are innocent, people whodo not fight, who do not break or people who do not disrupt anyparty(?).    He would assault people marching to lodge a complaint.

JUDGE WILSON: : The passage you put to him was that hewas also known as an ANC political opponent?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Yes Mr Chairman, it is the last sentence.

JUDGE WILSON: : Shouldn't it then be correctly read "...andpresumably being SAP member he was also known as ANC politicalopponent"?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Yes Mr Chairman, members of the Committee thatcan also be because it appears thereon.   I stand indebted forthat.

<UNKNOWN>: : I want to move to paragraph 10 of your applicationform, 10(b), the second paragraph thereof.   The sentence startsby saying
  "...We then decided to remove him or do something so tohave that pressure relieved, to have access to fight for our birthright."
Did you hear that?

ANSWER: Yes I heard sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who this "we" you are referring to?

ANSWER: This is what was said by some of our commanderwho was known as Mac Maharaj, he was from Tanzania that was whenhe was trying to form the SDU branch and this was said, the decisionwas made upon this that was said by Mr Maharaj, which is thatthe deceased had to be killed or taken away from the communityso that the community....(other side of tape, final part of answerlost).

<UNKNOWN>: : I'll read the next sentence to you, you said
  "It was just I met him alone but I can assure you everyonewas prepared to do it.   The pressure was irresistible and thatwas the only option."
Did you hear that?

ANSWER: No I can't remember that very well.

<UNKNOWN>: : If I heard you correctly in your answer tome earlier on, you stated that this commander from Tanzania, therewas a meeting and the discussions were not finalised, did yousay so?

ANSWER: Yes I agree, I said that.

<UNKNOWN>: : What is it that was not finalised?

ANSWER: A decision was not taken as to whether we killthis person or not, the meeting was adjourned on that day whenthis was said.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm now moving to page 4 Mr Chairman, membersof the Committee of the application form, paragraph 11(a), asa follow-up on what you have just said now that no decision wastaken to remove or eliminate him, is the reason why on paragraph11(a) when asked as to whether the offence was committed in anexecution of an order or on behalf of for which the approval ofthe (indistinct) Liberation Movement, State Department or securityforce concerned, you answered by saying the following
  "No there was no official order on behalf of ANC."
That is correct?

ANSWER: Could you please repeat your question?   He hasagain read it in English but I don't understand it very much.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm still on paragraph 11(a).   You have justsaid to the Committee that no decision was taken in that meetingas to the elimination of the deceased, do you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes I remember that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it the reason why in answer to questionon paragraph 11(a) you said no there was no official order onbehalf of the ANC?

ANSWER: Sir as I have explained earlier that this formor these forms I didn't fill them in on my own, I asked someoneand explained to that person that please fill in these forms forme because I was trusting that person and that is why I said tohim I want to go to phone my parents and I realised that I couldn'tdo away with going to the phone because the police at the prisonwould hold their own meetings, can you understand that, and thereforeI was in a hurry of not being limited by time, that is why I askedthat person to fill in the form for me.

<UNKNOWN>: : Paragraph 11(a) is not what you told him, isthat what you are saying?

ANSWER: Yes I think it is not what I told him.

<UNKNOWN>: : At what stage did you shoot the deceased.  What was the deceased doing at the time when you shot him thrice?

ANSWER: I explained to the Committee that when I shotthe deceased three times he slapped me and I got frightened becauseI could see he had a gun on him and I saw on many a times whata gun can do to the people, especially when it was in the handsof the people like the police.   I realised that if I could tryto run away he was going to kill me and that is why I say I wasvery scared and I got emotional and that's how I found myselfstruggling with him until the gun got into my hands.   I justpressed and then he got shot.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Jackson I will repeat that question andhelp you by saying he slapped you, now after slapping you I understandyou to be saying you had the gun in your hand.  When you startedshooting, what was he doing after the slapping?

ANSWER: He tried to put the gun away from me and I gotto the trigger and I realised that I had shot him on the ribsand then I shot him for the second time and then lastly for thethird time and then I went away.

<UNKNOWN>: : When you shot at him he was still grapplingwith you am I correct, is that what you are saying?

ANSWER: Yes it happened while we were struggling forthe gun.

<UNKNOWN>: : You were charged and brought before the Courtwhere you were convicted and the sentence was delivered on 3 November1993, do you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes I can remember that.