Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Peter.

MR VALLY: If you look at the other statement I have given you by Mrs Mathibe, and if you look at page 7 paragraph 17. Do you see it?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: You said page?

MR VALLY: Page 7 paragraph 17.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: I will read it quickly.
"Winnie on her first visit met Susan outside my house and asked where if she knew of anybody who might have picked up a shoe at the scene of Vusile's killing.  Susan referred them to me.  She explained that she had called an ambulance.  Winnie was unsettled by this.  Peter too was suspicious.  They argued that Susan was hiding something from them".
Do you see that paragraph?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us about the different versions given by you and Mrs Mathibe? Your version was that Peter had been sent to look for the neighbour, Mrs Maripa.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes.

MR VALLY: And she was not there. [Tape 1 Side A ends] Mrs Mathibe's version was that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in fact talked to the neighbour, who advised her that she had called the ambulance.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: What I remember, I remember Peter being sent by ....

MR VALLY: I didn't hear that, you remember?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Peter being sent by Mrs Mandela to go and fetch the neighbour.

MR VALLY: If you could, we'll just go a bit faster here.  Page 16 paragraph 12 of your statement, if you could just read your statement to us and then, paragraph by paragraph, I'll ask you questions.  Paragraph 12 page 16 of your statement.  Can you read it to us, please.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: You said from 12?

MR VALLY: Yes.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: "In my second meeting with Mrs Mandela and her unit she said to me she saw Vincent Sefako's body.  Vincent had a bullet wound on her back and off his head and his forehead was like it was hit with a hammer.  I did not ask where.  And saw the body...."
I can't see the other half of it here.

MR VALLY: That's fine.  Can you just tell me what you mean when you refer to as "her unit"?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Okay, the person who'll always accompany Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Who specifically?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It was Percy and Peter.

MR VALLY: You state that four days after the death, and this is at page 17, paragraph 16, four days after Vincent Sefako's death you were being taken by Peter to a house of a person called Jimbo Nkalani, where you had once been taken before by Mr Vincent Sefako before his death.  You go on to state that
"On the way to Jimbo's house Peter stopped the car in the open space from where you could see the house of Dipuo Mathibe".
Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir, it is.

MR VALLY: Could you also see the house of her neighbour, Susan Maripa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You go on, paragraph 16, page 17, at this place you say Peter got out of the car and asked you to join him.  Peter then asked you to go to this house and to ask the woman who saw the incident to say what she saw.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir, it is.

MR VALLY: You go on to state that you refused to go, saying that you would blow your cover.  Peter then said that in the struggle there is nothing like that.  Peter gave you a Makarov pistol and he removed an AK-47 from beneath the car seat.  You both concealed your weapons and Peter put the gun against your back and forced you towards the house.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It is, sir.

MR VALLY: At the house you were forced to open the gate by Peter, which you did.  Was this Miss Mathibe's house or the neighbour's house?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: House No.2, the neighbour's house.

MR VALLY: This is Miss Maripa's house?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You go on to say that in the yard you found a woman standing outside the kitchen door with a friend, and there was another man, whom you say was the father-in-law standing, at the door.  Peter then asked the woman if she recognised him and she said, yes, he had been at her house in the morning if her memory serves her well, and Peter responded by saying, yes.
 Peter then asked her whether she knew anything about the incident and she said she was just trying to help by calling the ambulance but that she had put herself in trouble by doing so.  She then said to you that she had put herself in hell. 
 This is paragraphs 18, 19 and 20 on page 17 and 18.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It is, sir.

MR VALLY: You then say you heard a shot and looked back and saw Peter metres away.  You say you tried to run away.  The woman had been shot in the chest.  Several shots were then fired.  You say you had no chance to reach Peter so you ran away.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Still correct, sir.

MR VALLY: You say you jumped over the fence into Miss Mathibe's yard and ran towards the gate, but saw the vehicle that you had come with Peter driving towards the gate.  You then jumped into the next yard and this is how you got away.  In your statement you say that it was a white Citi Golf, is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: In Mrs Mathibe's statement to the Commission she says the people who shot Susan Maripa got away in a blue Citi Golf, can you explain this discrepancy?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, actually the same Citi Golf, sir, which was trying to block me from getting away from the house No.2. It was the same City Golf which they collected me with, which was driven by a certain guy who speak Xhosa fluently.

MR VALLY: Do you know his name?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Come again, sir?

MR VALLY: Do you know his name?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, sir, not at all, it was the first time to see that guy, sir.

MR VALLY: You say having got away you met up with Miss Mathibe, who also ran away during the shooting.  Vincent Sefako's girlfriend and a certain person called "Uys".  You say on the same day you left for Botswana.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: To Bophuthatswana, sir.

MR VALLY: Not Botswana, Bophuthatswana?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir, it was Bophuthatswana first, then Botswana.

MR VALLY: If you look at Miss Mathibe's statement, she says that she left her house when the Security Branch arrived there, not immediately after the death, and she later met up with Thami, which I assume is you, and crossed the border into - and she talks about Botswana in the first week of November.  So that she says you didn't leave immediately after the shooting, you left a short while after that, is that correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Actually, maybe it was after an hour, if I am not mistaken, after the incident, sir.

MR VALLY: Having left the country, you returned in 1992 where you spoke to a person at Eikenhof, a member of the South African Police, a Mr Visser, who advised you that Vincent Sefako was buried in a pauper's grave and no one claimed his body.  Did Mr Visser tell you how Vincent Sefako had died?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Not at all, sir.

MR VALLY: Did Mr Visser tell you that you were a suspect in the murder of Susan Maripa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Your question again, sir, please.

MR VALLY: Did Mr Visser ever tell you that you were a suspect in the murder of Susan Maripa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, he did.

MR VALLY: You state that you were given a Makarov pistol but you did not fire the pistol.  It was Peter who had shot Susan Maripa with an AK-47, is that correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Still correct, sir.

MR VALLY: Miss Mathibe said that you had been given an unloaded Makarov, is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I never had a chance to inspect the pistol, sir.

MR VALLY: What did you do with the Makarov pistol after the incident?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I gave it over to, I handed it over to Oupa.

MR VALLY: Am I to understand that from what you say in your statement that Susan Maripa was killed because she witnessed a car accident and as a result phoned for an ambulance to assist the person who had been knocked down?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.