Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am ready to proceed.

JUDGE WILSON: What matter will we be starting with?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is indicated as matter no.2 on today's roll Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is Philip Matela and two others.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And two others Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Chairman may I just state that I am indebted to the Committee for the time given for the consultation.  I have just handed up copies of the report from the Investigative Unit relating to the victims or the next of kin to the victims in this matter, to the effect that they cannot be traced.  That is page 2 of the document I've just handed up to the Committee members.  The summary of it is that they cannot trace these people.
	If the Chair allows me, I may proceed Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman before you is the first applicant, Matela, the applicant is Sotho speaking, may he be made to take an oath.

PHILIP MATELA DINTWE: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How old are you at the moment?

MR MATELA: I am 33 years old.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Matela is it correct that you are one of the three applicants in an incident that took place in an area called Katlehong on the 29th of September 1990, is that so?

MR MATELA: Yes it is so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: An incident wherein four White persons were killed?   Please speak, don't nod your head, the machine cannot see a head please.  Where four White men were killed.

JUDGE WILSON: Four White people wasn't it, not four White men?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Four White people Mr Chairman.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it also correct that on this particular evening when this incident took place you were present on the scene?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you tell this Committee as to what happened that particular evening.

MR MATELA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Please do so.  You may proceed.

MR MATELA: On a Saturday I left home and used a very lengthy road and I met White men who parked in front of me and asked me where ANC comrades are, and I wanted to know what were they asking that for and they did not answer we and they just wanted to know to which political party I belonged to.  They left off and used a different route and I was going to my sister's house.  I met other comrades on my way who were patrolling as it was instructed and I told them about this incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let us go back a little bit, you say  you met this vehicle whose occupants asked you about comrades?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You met, you came across this motor car and the occupants of this motor car said something to you about the comrades, is that so?

MR MATELA: Yes I met the three White people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What did these people say to you about comrades?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question, please rephrase your question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you met them what did they say to you about the comrades?

MR MATELA: I asked them as to why were they looking for the comrades.  They just said to me what is my party and they proceeded with their journey.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So they said to you they wanted to know where the comrades were?

MR MATELA: They asked where the comrades were.  I didn't explain to them and they just proceeded and I went into a shack and I met with a group of comrades who were on patrol.  Thereafter I told them about these White men, then I'm not sure whether are they AWB members or what.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you say to the comrades that you did not know whether these people were AWB's, what made you select the name AWB?

MR MATELA: At that time we were told to protect ourselves because any party would come and try and attack us, therefore we must be on the defence all the time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you told that the area was going to be attacked by White people?

MR MATELA: No I did not tell them that we were going to be attacked by White people but we just heard rumours that there were people who were going to attack, as to which party were they belonging to we did not know.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you reading from something?

MR MATELA: I was just explaining as to what happened there.

JUDGE WILSON: I asked you if you were reading from something, you were holding an open sheet of paper in front of you which you have now folded up, were you reading from that?

MR MATELA: No Sir.  It's the statement that I made in the camp.

JUDGE WILSON: Well why were you holding it in front of you looking at it and your eye was moving along line from line, if you weren't reading it?

MR MATELA: I was just trying to remember the exact details of the event.

JUDGE WILSON: So you were reading from it?

MR MATELA: No I was not reading from it.

JUDGE WILSON: (Aside - he's lying)

ADV DE JAGER: You said it's a statement that you've made before?

MR MATELA: Yes it's a statement that I made.

ADV DE JAGER: And do you wish to refresh your memory from the statement?

MR MATELA: No I don't want to remind myself, it's just that there are some words that I eliminated thus I just needed to refresh my memory.

ADV DE JAGER: If it's a statement that could assist you in your case you could even hand it up to us and we could have a look at it and if it's a statement that you've made at the time we could - perhaps it would assist you if you want to hand it in.

MR MATELA: I don't understand clearly because this ear pieces they are not so clear, therefore I cannot understand everything clearly.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you Sotho speaking?

MR MATELA: Ja.

ADV DE JAGER: The translation that's being transferred to you is that Sotho?

MR MATELA: I cannot hear clearly because the sound is very low.
MR MATELA'S SOUND IS ATTENDED TO

ADV DE JAGER: About the document you've been - you've got before you, is that a statement that you've made in connection with this case, with this application?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you want to hand in that statement or what's the purpose of the statement?

MR MATELA: Yes I can.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it in Sotho or which language is it?

MR MATELA: It's written in Sotho.

ADV DE JAGER: If you want to hand it in it could be handed in and it could be translated and given to us, but if you don't want to hand it in you are not obliged to do so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps I may come to the Committee's assistance here.  During consultation the applicant was using the statement and explaining to me and I wrote that in English and I'm leading him on that statement which I have written in English, that's the reason why he keeps on looking at it to remind himself, but I have it all before me and I'm leading him on that very statement. It is not in an affidavit form at all.  Thank you.	Now Mr Matela you told this Committee that a meeting was held about you people defending the community in Katlehong.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now can you tell the Committee when was this meeting held and who addressed this meeting?  In other words who was the Chairperson at this meeting?

MR MATELA: This meeting was held on a Sunday.  It was said that the comrades were going to be attacked.  Our Chairperson Mr Manong was presiding at that meeting.  He explained that the comrades must defend themselves should there be people coming to attack them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Mr Manong the local chairman of the ANC in your branch?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you a member of the ANC?

MR MATELA: Yes I am a member of the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you one at the time?

MR MATELA: Yes I was a member then and I'm still a member.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that you then informed the comrades who were on patrol that you came across a motor vehicle occupied by White passengers and they asked you where the comrades were, do you still remember that?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now where did you meet these other comrades to whom you made a report?