Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS THABETHE: Did you at any stage hear the applicants say they are going to Sepapo's place?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.  I did not hear them at any stage, because when they conversed among themselves they would stand aside so that we did not hear.

MS THABETHE: Do you know Mr Mabusa?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, I know him.

MS THABETHE: Where do you know him from?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I know him from Zone 12.

MS THABETHE: Did you know him to belong to any political organisation?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I know him to be a member of the ANC.

MS THABETHE: We've heard from the applicants that Mabusa said you were sell-outs.  Did you know anything about this?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know anything about that.  I don't know whether Mabusa said that.

MS THABETHE: Have you ever heard in the township, in Zone 12, any rumours of you having been regarded as sell-outs.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Where did you hear such rumours from?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Can I explain?

MS THABETHE: Yes you can.

ELSIE MOKOENA: One day, it was on a Sunday, I was coming from the soccer, a certain boy arrived.  His name was comrade Fish.  He arrived at home and told me that I was wanted to Nghlombani's place, and I asked him why.  And he told me that there were people spreading the rumour I was a sell-out.  It was on a Sunday when he told me that, and he said I was wanted at the office on Monday 11 o'clock in the morning.

MS THABETHE: Sorry Ms Mokoena.  Do you remember when this was, in terms of years?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I remember.

MS THABETHE: When was it?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was in 1992.

MS THABETHE: Do you remember the month

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was in March.

MS THABETHE: Yes, you may proceed.

ELSIE MOKOENA: I went to Hlombani's place and I was questioned.  What they did, they told me that, they asked me what was going on between me and the policeman.  I told them that he was my boyfriend, and they told me that I knew that policemen were not wanted in the township because they are associated with Inkatha.  I told them that yes, I know, but my boyfriend is not associated with Inkatha because he lives with me.  That's how I responded to their question.  I told them I do not know him to be associated with the IFP, he is with me most of the times.

MS THABETHE: Then what was their response?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They understood.  And they carried out their investigations.

MS THABETHE: I just want to go back to this questioning.  Were you the only one who were questioned that day?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, I was not alone.  It was many of us.  Nine girls and one boy.

MS THABETHE: So what happened, were you all questioned at one time?  Or were you questioned separately?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They were asking everybody.  They would ask one person questions today and the next day they would ask the other person.

MS THABETHE: We also heard in the applicant's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave that aspect Ms Thabethe, when you say you were questioned individually every day, for how long did this enquiry last?

ELSIE MOKOENA: This process took a month and two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the questioning only?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.  The questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: So how long were you questioned?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I think I was questioned three, if not four, days.

CHAIRPERSON: You were questioned for three to four days?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was doing the questioning?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Many people asked me questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these people questioning you in their capacity as members of the ANC?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Hlombani there as chairperson of the ANC at that time?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was this questioning also joined in by the members of the community at large, not necessarily those who had positions or offices in the leadership of the local ANC?

ELSIE MOKOENA: People came but they were chased out of this meeting, but some were selected to be part.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of the members of the community were selected to be part?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of this enquiry, were you punished in any way?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, I was not punished in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were the other girls who were questioned with you punished?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the outcome of the enquiry insofar as  charges that had been levelled against you were concerned?

ELSIE MOKOENA: There is a certain Mr Ndlapo who was present.  I don't know whether he was vice to Hlombani, but I know him to be a senior as well.  When our case ended, he mentioned in the meeting that he was washing his hands just like Pilato did.  He told us that he was not going to get involved at all because we were not, he did not see anything wrong with us.

CHAIRPERSON: In your earlier testimony you also stated that you understand that investigations were carried out, in connection with this enquiry that you had to attend.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Which people conducted the investigation?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I want to find out.  Your earlier testimony was that you were questioned about your association with your boyfriend who was a policeman and you were told that you knew that policemen were not wanted in the township because they were associated with the IFP.  You responded that you did not think your boyfriend was associated with the IFP because he was with you most of the time.  You then said they understood and carried out investigations.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying they carried out investigations?  What investigation or investigations, to your knowledge, were carried out?

ELSIE MOKOENA: What I meant must they must have investigated to confirm what I told them.  Because they discovered that there was no such.

CHAIRPERSON: They discovered that there was no such what?  That your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP?  They were satisfied.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, they were satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It's Mr Ndlapo.

CHAIRPERSON: He specifically said he was satisfied that your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He said to me we are satisfied with your explanation of how you conduct your life in your township.  That was the explanation I gave them about my boyfriend and how we lived together.  He was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: He said this during the enquiry, and he did not say it privately to you?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  I don't know whether the witness did answer to your questions as whether she knows if other persons were punished as well.  Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I note that the time is twenty five to twelve.  I think it important to afford the witness an opportunity to have a short break.  So we'll take a five minute adjournment.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ELSIE MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: (cont)  Thank you Madam Chair.  Ms Mokoena, still on the question of the enquiry that took place in 1992.  Was Hapile also present at this enquiry?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What was she charged with?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She was not charged.

MS THABETHE: No, what I mean is why was she there?  Why was she there with you?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Because she was our friend.  She was our friend.

MS THABETHE: Do you know how she got there?  In your evidence you say you were called to come there.  Do you know how she got there?  Was she also called?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, she was also called.

MS THABETHE: Do you know who called her?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Who?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Fish.

MS THABETHE: So was she questioned?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: About what?