Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I cannot remember that at all.

MR DONAN: You see, we're getting down to the nitty gritty.  She said that you were abusive and you swore at her and you asked her a lot of questions.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That I could have a questions, I acknowledge that.

MR DONAN: But when she didn't answer Mr Nel ordered her to stand up and he grabbed the collar of her dress and he pulled her up?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I do not know anything about that.

MR DONAN: And then Mr Mostert questioned her and he swore at her and he hit her on her chest and shoulder and she felt sore?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I have no knowledge of this.

MR DONAN: Do you remember appearing at an identification parade later?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: And was she called upon to identify the people in the room?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: And did she identify you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Among others, yes.

MR DONAN: That's one particular event, how many others were there that you can tell this hearing about?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The incident was investigated and they refused to go to trial.

MR DONAN: I'm sure he did but was your system to assault women if necessary, if they didn't speak?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I never did it, I do not know the existence of such a system.

MR DONAN: But these - she was in your presence and she was - and men under your command were assaulting her.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I hear this is being alleged.

MR DONAN: Well why didn't you stop them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Because I did not see it happen, it did not happen in my presence.

MR DONAN: But you knew this kind of thing was going on?

CHAIRPERSON: You know I think it's a general question, you want to know specifically on that day.  You see he says he didn't see it at that time now you say: "But you knew generally this was happening".  I think that you are ...[intervention]

MR DONAN: I understand ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You're going from the "specific" to a general and it makes things difficult to get a sensible answer isn't it?

MR DONAN: I quite agree, I shall try to be more specific.
	June Essau was detained at that time wasn't she?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is possibly so.

MR DONAN: And she was brutally assaulted by your men, wasn't she?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not that I know of.

MR DONAN: Did you hear her screaming?

JUDGE WILSON: Who was that again please?

MR DONAN: June Essau.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: Did you know that she brought an application to the Supreme Court to stop your people ...[intervention]

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I know.

MR DONAN: From assaulting her?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is so.

MR DONAN: You didn't know about that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Please repeat.

MR DONAN: Did you know that she was being assaulted?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, the allegation was made.

MR DONAN: How did you get the information - how did you think your men were getting information from her?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I believed that they possibly assaulted her but I did not know it for a fact.

MR DONAN: What exactly did you believe for example, that Shahieda Issel did wrong?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: She must have been involved in the underground structures of the ANC in the Western Cape if I remember correctly.

MR DONAN: Anything - any specific physical danger that she posed involving weapons?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: As part of that yes, Mr Chairman - it would have been of terrorism.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, can I interrupt here.  When she launched an application, I assume it was an interdict against further assault?

MR DONAN: It was.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see Mr Donan agrees with me.  Knowing the way your men used to work, did you speak to them and say: "Hey, did you in fact assault this person"?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I did not do that but I accepted that she was assaulted.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you file any affidavits to oppose that application?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, we did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You denied the allegations of assault?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you knew that that might not have been the truth?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is so.

MR DONAN: Now Subeida Jatha, she was detained at roughly that same time wasn't she?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is possibly so.

MR DONAN: And she too was assaulted by Mr Mostert, did you know about that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Let us group together everything and let us deal with all the names, then I can give you a clear answer but to take them one by one - some of them I will not remember others I will.

MR DONAN: Why don't you tell the Committee in the interests of truth, which women were assaulted at that time?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: All that I can tell you is that if I can get the files - the specific administrative files, then I can give evidence - I cannot do anything without them.

MR DONAN: Let's deal with it on another basis.  Mr Benzien had a particular ability to make people talk because he could torture them or he could torture them so as to make them talk, that was his evidence.  Did you know this?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I heard that.

MR DONAN: Where did you hear it?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Among the members of the staff.

MR DONAN: And what exactly did you hear?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Simply that: "He will make one talk".

MR DONAN: Did you ask for him to be transferred to the particular unit?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: How did it come about that he arrived there?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: At that stage I was not stationed in the Cape.

MR DONAN: You agree with me though that his speciality was torturing men?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Possibly one of his specialities.

MR DONAN: What were his others then?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: A very good investigative officer.

MR DONAN: Yes, he would be wouldn't he.  Let's talk about Mr Mostert, he was another man under your command.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: What was his speciality?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Nothing in particular that I can remember.

MR DONAN: Isn't it so that he made a habit of beating up woman and eliciting information from them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I have no knowledge of that.

MR DONAN: Do you know about - where you present in the Western Cape during the Yengeni trial?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Please give me a date, then I can reply.

MR DONAN: I beg your pardon?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Can I please get a date, then I can give you an answer.

MR DONAN: Have you ever heard of Tony Yengeni?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: Did you ever know that he was on trial?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: Did you know that one of his co-accused was Jennifer Ann Schreiner?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: Did you follow that trial at all?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I know of it, I had knowledge of it.  I'm waiting for the next question.

MR DONAN: Do you know that serious allegations were made about abuses of Ms Schreiner by Mr Mostert?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR DONAN: But you knew about the abuses raised by Shahieda Issel?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: And Subeida Jaffa?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Among others yes, I think so.

MR DONAN: Eugene Essau?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I cannot remember.

MR DONAN: Isn't so, that his speciality was beating up women?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not that I know of.

MR DONAN: You've never come to that conclusion?