Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Happy was the first one to fire and after that I started firing.  He first fired and after that the firearm jammed and it released the bullets.  The bullets fell on the ground and after that he stepped aside and I started firing.

MR DE JAGER: Right, well that's not what you're saying in this paragraph.  Well tell use now, in paragraph 2
"I wish to say the truth as I lied in my application form for amnesty."
What lies did you tell us in your application form?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: That is what I have just explained, that there was a conflict between the IFP members and us.  That is information that is found in the first application.

MR DE JAGER: Why didn't you tell us that this man was a member of the Amabuvo and that was the reason why you killed him?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Will you please repeat the question?

MR DE JAGER: Why didn't you tell us in the application form that you killed Phewa because he was a member of the Amabuvo that they were considered to be your enemies and you killed him for that reason?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I disclosed that in the recent affidavit.

MR DE JAGER: So give us the reason why you lied in your application form, explain why you lied?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Are you talking about the initial application?

MR DE JAGER: Yes, to this, to the TRC, yes.

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I did explain that when I was making this application I was not confident enough, I didn't have enough knowledge as far as this TRC is concerned.  I later got more information and then I planned that I was going to tell the truth as is, I didn't want to have anything that could be used against me in terms of lies.

MR DE JAGER: So at first you really lied to us because you didn't know enough about the Truth Commission so you planned to lie deliberately to the Truth Commission in the first instance?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: No, I was just thinking that the situation was the same as in court.  I thought that I was going to get further punishment.  I had such doubts on my mind up until such time when I was told that there's no punishment that would be administered to me therefore I decided to tell the truth as it is.

MR DE JAGER: Why did you go to a body where you expect extra punishment?  Why in the first place approach that body if that was your honest belief?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Will you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR DE JAGER: Why did you make an application to a body which you believed would administer extra punishment to you?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I made the application because I wanted to be forgiven by the victims or next-of-kin.  As a person who was my political opponent at the time, the situation was tense, I wanted to have some reconciliation.  I appreciated that there was this Committee because I heard that it is a place where you can go and disclose everything so as to get reconciliation in return.

MR DE JAGER: You knew that you had to disclose everything and if you want to have reconciliation with the victims you should tell the truth.  So you knew that all along and yet you proceed to tell lies, is that not the position?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, I did explain the reason for me to tell lies.

MR DE JAGER: And I want to put it to you that the whole cause of the quarrels in the area was one reason and one reason only.  The people were against Mr Mkhize's chairmanship, they were against him as person, isn't that so?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I am going to dispute that.  As an ANC member and a community they knew very well that they were in favour of Mkhize.  I cannot dispute the fact that people cannot go together, cannot have the same views all the time.  There were people who will be pulling to the other side but Mkhize was the favourite and the people loved him.  If the people did not love him he would not be a chairperson, as he is still a chairperson even today, as a person who was fighting for the community, helping the community in many ways.

MR DE JAGER: So you respected Mr Mkhize, is that correct?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes we respected Mr Mkhize very much as a chairperson of the ANC at the time.

MR DE JAGER: And Mr Mkhize told you that you shouldn't kill people, you shouldn't kill the members of the Amabuvo, is that right?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: No, he never made any utterances to that effect, that was not his job.

MR DE JAGER: Did he at any moment in time, did he order you or instruct you to go and kill people?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: That was not his duty as a chairperson to tell us as what to do, he was just in charge.

MR DE JAGER: Well who ordered you to kill the people?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: We did not have the commander at the time who was supposed to give us orders and such things.  We used to do things in the name of protecting our organisation at the time.  No specific person ordered us to do something, we did that because we knew that we are obliged to protect the ANC.  We did that on our own as the ANC organisation, we wanted to protect ourselves and the community.

MR DE JAGER: You said Mr Mkhize addressed a meeting where shooting broke out, is that correct?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Will you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR DE JAGER: Did I understand you correct that you told us that Mr Mkhize addressed a meeting and at that meeting shooting broke out?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes that is correct.

MR DE JAGER: What was he telling the people at that meeting?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: The subject was this conflict in the area.  He was trying to get strategies to try and put the situation back to normal because people were injured.

MR DE JAGER: He didn't want people to be shot and he asked you to have peace in the vicinity?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes it was a discussion that was taking place there, he was trying to prevent such things.

MR DE JAGER: And there was also the meeting, two meetings of Mr Gwala and of Mr Nsimande, Bladen Nsimande, also telling you people that you're allies and you shouldn't kill each other, is that correct?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes they told us more about that and they told us that there is an alliance between the two organisations therefore there was no need for us to kill another.  They tried as much as they could to solve the problem but they failed because whatever they said there did not help.

MR DE JAGER: Because you people didn't obey, on both sides you didn't obey, I don't say only your side but on both sides, you didn't listen to them?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes I can say so.  What I can explain is this, I couldn't keep quiet, watch the people fighting us and even telling us that they wanted to destroy the organisation.  I couldn't allow them to that.  When we attacked the SACP members it was an act of revenge because we wanted to maintain the organisation because those people wanted to destroy the organisation.  Before we had to do something in terms of protecting our organisation.

MR DE JAGER: But that was contrary to what your own leader, Mr Mkhize, told you and it was contrary to what Mr Gwala and Mr Nsimande told you?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes they tried to solve the problem but I just take those people as a people who are stubborn, they did not want to listen because those were the people who started the conflict.  I know as an individual that ANC was an alliance, had an alliance with SACP.  I knew that very well but to me their behaviour, I looked at it and I was very shocked, I didn't know what was the reason for them to do that, that also confused me because I didn't know their reasons behind.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you say what was said your leaders from the national leadership was totally different from what was happening to you as ordinary members from both parties?