Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

MR KOTZE: And your idea was according to Messrs Holder and Van Zyl or the impression that you created with them was that you knew the area well because you had spent quite some time on the premises and that you were aware that there was an arsenal or that there would be an arsenal on the premises, of firearms?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes there is an arsenal of firearms but from the beginning my objective was to rob the guards of their firearms because in my opinion it would have been impossible to get access to the two safes where the other firearms were kept, I wouldn't even have attempted it.

MR KOTZE: Messrs Holder and Van Zyl say that at this stage when the action at Devon was planned very briefly, it wasn't a long drawn out planning, that they believed that the guardhouse and the guards would not be attacked but that it would only be a reconnaissance of the premises and if firearms could easily be obtained for the arsenal or firearms cache, it would be done?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I stated it very clearly to them, from the beginning that we would go to obtain firearms.  We weren't going for observation, we were going to obtain firearms.

MR KOTZE: But would you state in broad terms, to obtain firearms that you would say you were there to obtain firearms or would you state in particular where the firearms would be obtained?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I told them in particular about the guards in the guardhouse and that we would take their firearms from them.

MR KOTZE: Messrs Holder and Van Zyl deny this, they state that it would only be a matter of reconnoitring and possibly obtaining firearms and that the attack on the guards had never been on their agenda that day.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well if had never been on their agenda, I wasn't aware of it.

MR KOTZE: The circumstances briefly were then that Mr van Zyl remained behind in the vehicle and you and Mr Holder climbed over the wall, I mean the fence?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes over the fence.

MR KOTZE: Then you crept up to, or you crossed the premises so that you wouldn't be detected, you were ahead?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder followed you at a few metres distance?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder alleges that the next thing he saw you were at the guardhouse and he assumed that you were moving there in order to observe how many guards there were and how prepared they were?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well at that stage I stated it very clearly to him that we were going to take the guards' weapons from them and he was aware of the guardhouse because we had driven past it.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder had a .38 special revolver with him at the stage when the guardhouse was approached?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: He alleges that it was in the pants hip pocket of his browns, as he called it?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No, it was definitely not in his hip pocket.

MR KOTZE: Where would you say it was?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: In his hand.

MR KOTZE: And you had a 9 mm pistol in your hand, you stated previously?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder said that the guardhouse is a square type and that he looked through a window in the one side while you went round the corner to another side where the door was which rendered access to the guardhouse?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: I wouldn't know whether he looked through the window.

MR KOTZE: No, but the point that I'm trying to make is that you had lost eye contact with each other in the sense that you went round the corner and that he was standing on the other side of the corner or he remained behind?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well the door is not very far from the corner, it was on the corner so it is possible that for a few second we lost eye contact.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder alleges that he believed that the purpose of the visit to the guardhouse was purely to make an observation with regard to how many people there were in the guardhouse, how awake they were and he states that the next moment he observed you storming, rushing into the guardhouse?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: He was aware at that stage that I was going to enter the guardhouse because he was directly behind me.

MR KOTZE: Are you saying that at the stage when you entered the guardhouse you were already aware that there were two white police officers in the guardhouse?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: At that stage I was not aware of it.

MR KOTZE: Are you saying that regardless of who was in the guardhouse your purpose was to attack them and rob them of their firearms.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well if I'd known beforehand that they were policemen I wouldn't have run the risk because the police at that stage were much better trained than airforce troops were trained and they dealt daily with crime and violence and they would have been able to act and react much quicker than airforce troops would have been able to do.  I wouldn't have run that risk.

MR KOTZE: Are you saying that you went past the window and not at all looked through it into the guardhouse to see who was inside?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I ducked below the window so that I wouldn't be seen so I couldn't look through the window, I didn't look through the window.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder alleges that when he saw you storming into the guardhouse he followed you?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes he followed me.

MR KOTZE: But he says it was a total change on the original game plan?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well as I had stated previously, it was very clearly stated from the beginning that we were going to obtain or take by force firearms and that was made very clear to them and I accepted that that was what they understood and that they agreed to it and that is the way I explained it to them.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder alleges that immediately after you had stormed into the guardhouse your remark had been that the guards shouldn't do anything stupid.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: My words were that we were of a right-wing organisation, that they shouldn't try to be Rambos and all that we wanted were their firearms.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder alleges that a struggle developed between you and Constable Terblanche and then as a consequence of this the lights went out.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well at the stage when the lights went out it was after the first shot had been fired but neither myself nor Mr Terblanche had fired the first shot, Mr Holder or Mr Swart, a co-guard, would have had to fire the first shot.

MR KOTZE: And then you fired a second shot?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well as I had said I grabbed Mr Terblanche's firearm, the first shot was fired, the lights were out and I felt there was something was wrong with my arm.  Mr Terblanche started struggling to get his firearm and at that stage a shot was fired from my firearm, not deliberately, and Mr Terblanche jerked his firearm from my hand and then I fired.

MR KOTZE: Do you accept that a shot from your firearm had fatally wounded Mr Terblanche?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I accept that.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder denies having fired any shots in the guardhouse.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I wouldn't be able to say whether he had fired any shots but I know that in my trial and I have statements made by the various sections of the police or issued by the sections of the police in which some of the evidence that was provided was a projectile fired from a .38 special firearm and that was only one person there who had that kind of firearm and that was Mr Holder.

MR KOTZE: Mr Holder says that his impression was that you had shot yourself in the forearm.