Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

MR KAHANOVITZ: You're not asking for indemnity against civil proceedings, otherwise you wouldn't have filled in not applicable there?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It's been filled in not applicable.

UNKNOWN: Well, Mr Chairman, with respect it doesn't say whether you are asking for any indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think it relates to - and in any event we don't give different categories of amnesty, it's either amnesty or no amnesty, we don't give partial amnesty in respect of criminal proceedings and maybe not in respect of civil.

UNKNOWN: I may just say that well up to this date I'm not aware of any civil proceedings pending or even envisaged and I think that is why it was filled in in this manner.

CHAIRPERSON: We also do, Mr Kahanovitz, get many, many applications where people have neither been charged with criminal, or don't even expect criminal prosecution or civil suits but they've just applied because they've done something and they want to apply for amnesty.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now on the question of whether you obtained any financial benefit from being a member of the CCB, I assume as in the case of Mr van Zyl, your conditions of employment improved while you were in the CCB compared to your remuneration package in the South African Police?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, it improved.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Isn't it also so that at the time that you left Brixton Murder and Robbery the unit was in disarray because two of your colleagues were being charged or had already been found guilty of murder?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Had they been found guilty at the time that you left or were they only charged at that stage?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I think they had already been convicted.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Senior members, certainly one, what were the ranks of the two people concerned?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: One was a Captain and he was at Murder and Robbery stationed somewhere on the East Rand.  The other one was a Sergeant stationed at Brixton.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Those facts would hardly reflect favourably on you as the Commanding Officer of that unit.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I said so, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And that certainly was a factor which influenced you to move out of the police force?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well the interpretation which my seniors attached to the situation was the reason that I became convinced that I should seek other - another job.  I did not agree with their opinion.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now let's go to page 141 of your amnesty application, the portion where you deal with the Early Learning Centre project.  I assume you've read this document shortly before giving your testimony here.  What is your attorney writing as a note to you?

UNKNOWN: I'm not writing, I'm taking notes of what the questions and answers ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh, I see.  No he seemed to be particularly interested in what you were writing.  Mr Burger, did you read your ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: I don't think he'd be able to read my handwriting.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, did you read your application?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Apart from what your - the one factor that your attorney mentioned while you were giving evidence in chief, is everything in this application true and correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, it's not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well would you care to point out to us which aspects are not?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Are you referring to the entire application or just the bomb section of it?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, let's just deal with the whole application.  Just before I start asking you questions, tell us which parts are incorrect.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, we'll have to take that paragraph by paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just going to say, it's not very fair to ask somebody a long document, what's correct and what's not.  Maybe, do you want an adjournment for him to read it and mark what's wrong, because he might just forget something now and then a whole issue will be made of it and it will be because he didn't have enough time?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it's not necessary for an adjournment, then the inference will again be that he's been told what to say or somehow  motioned to him what to say, then I insist that we proceed now on a paragraph by paragraph analysis of this and let him tell us what's not right, we can do it immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe it's best to do it on a - you see, I don't want to cross-examine him on the basis of what's in here if he's going to tell me in advance that parts of it are wrong because if he says that in advance ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's do it the way Mr du Plessis has suggested.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Well, can I suggest then we deal with the Early Learning Centre and you read through the paragraphs on pages 140 and 141 and tell us what's wrong, if anything.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: May I start?
"Another member of Region 6, namely Abram Slang van Zyl, obtained information from informers relating to the terrorist activities of a gang in Cape Town known as the Kewtown Youth Movement.  According to the information, this organisation sought to disrupt the election which was to take place during this period.  As part of this attempt to disrupt the election, attacks were launched on the lives of candidates who were running for election and apart from this, bomb attacks were also launched on premises which were to be used as polling booths during the election.  We also learned that the particular gang was planning to cause a major fire in the squatter camp in Khayelitsha shortly before the election, which would then lead to riots with accompanying disruption of the election.  We in fact had information that the gang was responsible  for bomb explosions at the Athlone Magistrates Court and Athlone Post Office.  The Post Office which was damaged in the explosion, was also a polling booth for the election.  Persons were killed and seriously injured in these explosions."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, let's pause there.  Is there anything incorrect there?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That so far is still in line with the information.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  If you can just go to the bottom of page 140, the top of page 141, you say that as part of the Q-Town Youth's attempt to disrupt the election, attempts were made on the lives of candidates.  Now you will recall that when I cross-examined Mr van Zyl, I asked him whether any information of that nature had ever been revealed by his informants and he said no.  I just want to know from you what you claim to be the source of that information.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Verster had an information channel and so did Gen Webb.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who told you this, Mr Basson or Mr Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Verster.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He came to tell you this?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, what detail did he give you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember the detail now, but I would assume it would be as contained here in the application.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You then say in that same paragraph
"We also learned that the gang were planning to cause a major fire"
Who are "ons"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That would be myself, the co-ordinator and the member.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But the "lid" concerned, Mr van Zyl, denies ever having furnished you with any information.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, but I'm telling you now that this information did not come from Mr van Zyl, it came from above.

MR LAX: But he went further, he denied any knowledge of that at all, never heard it before, at the stage the operation was happening.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I'm not with you.

MR LAX: Van Zyl went further, he didn't just say he wasn't the source of that information, he said he knew nothing about that, he doesn't know where it even came from, he'd never heard it before at that time.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I heard that, yes.