Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that is correct.  In point of fact Mr Chairman, there is only one witness that is relevant flowing from the contents of this document and I can tell you where this witness fits in.  It's a witness who says that Mr Mohapi made a ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, you say it's a witness who says.  I sincerely hope you are not going to mention the contents of the statement to us.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, just give me an opportunity please.  It's a witness that gave a statement in regard to a report made by him by Mr Mohapi on the evening of the 27th of March, simple as that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And we don't know whether Mr Mohapi agrees that he made that report on that day.

MR VISSER: That is the reason why I suggested in fairness to Mr Mohapi, it can just be put to him Mr Chairman.  He can deny it ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Before you say that Mr Visser, that is the reason why I said don't tell us what is in here because what you have just told us, that Mr Mohapi made a report on such and such a day may just be disputed.  We don't want to hear a word of the contents of that docket Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you're going to rule that you don't want to have insight in this evidence which is available then you must make such a ruling.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman, I suggest that we continue with his other witnesses at the moment and if he wants to make the application at a later stage he can perhaps make the application if you want to listen to it.

CHAIRPERSON: He's made the application now, we will reserve our ruling on it, as my brother has said it's a matter we have to discuss.  And we can carry on.

MR VISSER: I call Mr Erasmus.

ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: You may sit down Mr Erasmus.  (discussions on microphones)  Colonel Coetzee, I beg your pardon, Mr Erasmus, are you attached to the South African Police Service?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And were you previously attached to the security branch of the South African Police?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes, that is correct Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: What is your present rank?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I'm a Senior Superintendent in the South African Police Service.

MR VISSER: And in which unit or section are you presently operating?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I'm the Provincial Anti-corruption Commissioner of the Free State.

MR VISSER: Who is your immediate senior at present?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I'm under the direct command of the Provincial Commissioner.

MR VISSER: And who is that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is Commissioner de Wit.

MR VISSER: When did you join the South African Police?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I joined them on the 26th March 1977.

MR VISSER: If the interpreters think I'm going too quickly would you please just give me a signal.
	You joined the South African Police on 26 March 1977?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: 27 March 1977.  That's with the police?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And with the security branch in Bloemfontein?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That was since November '81 that I became attached to the security branch.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, in which section did you operate in the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair, just after I joined the security branch or was transferred to it, I initially worked in the registration office and early the next year I went on a course after which I joined the so-called black section.  After becoming an officer I became involved in the investigating teams and I also dealt with emergency measures and detached services.

MR VISSER: Could we quickly run through this? You were with admin and then you went to black section, can you give us a date when you went to the black section?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That would have been March '82 until the middle of 1985.

MR VISSER: And you say you went to the investigating unit or did you then go to the emergency measures, detentions?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: My officer's course was the first half of '85 and  immediately after that from the middle of '85 until the major portion of 1986 I was more desk bound where I was concerned with more administrative duties.
	In 1985 I was in the Cape for three months on an investigation and from August '86 to December '88 I was detached by head office for an investigation in the North West Province which was eventually heard in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: What was this case?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It concerned the State against Ian Auguzulu and six others.

MR VISSER: While you are referring to courses, could you perhaps tell the Committee members, during the 1986, were you on courses?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No, Mr Chair.  No, I did not attend courses, not as far as I can remember at the moment.

MR VISSER: In your black section with which you were involved until mid 1985, who were the people involved in that section with you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair, initially we were only a few but when I left we were probably approximately 20 people.

MR VISSER: In order to just keep it short or keep it brief, could I - no okay, then I will leave it.  Could you give us the names of the people who were in the black section?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Middle '86 it would have been me ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Sorry, I missed some of the names.  If we could just possibly just have a repeat.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It was me, Terry Shaw, Mamome, M-A-M-O-M-E, Motsamai, there was a Constable Kabusa but he committed suicide at one stage, there was also Constable Mancho.

MR VISSER: Can you spell that to us?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: M-A-N-C-H-O.  Morakile was there at a stage in the black section.  Hendrik Ramosoeu also worked there.

MR VISSER: And Hendrik Ramosoeu, what were his duties?  What did he concern himself with?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He worked with us in Bloemfontein but then he went to work exclusively in Brandfort.

MR VISSER: How many members were there in the security branch as far as you can remember?  Just an approximation during 1985/'86.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair, at an estimate I would say 70 to 80 staff members.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it is three minutes on my watch to go to 5 o'clock.  I'm going to commence now with the background concerning Mr Ngo because this was this person and I wouldn't like to break the concentration of the evidence as I'm going to present it to you.  May I suggest that we take the adjournment now?

CHAIRPERSON: 08H30 tomorrow morning.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS