Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, Col Visser told me that an impimpi from the Soweto Security Branch, who was a trained ANC member and who had been arrested and who at that stage had changed his mantel to the wind and worked for the branch as an agent, that they had good information that he was acting as a double agent and had started operating again for the MK and that that endangered the lives of his handler as well other Security Force members in the sense that it threatened the operation, the intelligence operation, and it was necessary to act against him immediately.  And that he had received orders from HQ to eliminate the person, to make him disappear and that it had to happen very quickly.

MR BOOYENS: It was not possible for you at that stage to know whether the intelligence that he was relying on was true or not, or to verify it or to investigate it. is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I was a junior officer, I was a Lieutenant at the time and as I said, Col Visser was a senior members and a person whom I respected absolutely and I had no reason to doubt his word.  It was also very clear that he was very serious.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a Colonel already then?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any reason to doubt the correctness of what he was saying to you?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No, Sir.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, sorry.  Mr Booyens, sorry.
	Even if you did question his motives or his judgements, you wouldn't have asked him or you wouldn't have done anything about it surely, as a junior office.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Sir, if it had been somebody else and if it had been an officer that I did not have the respect for that I did in this case, then I might have found some sort of excuse to get out of it, but in this case I respected the officer in this regard and as I was a very motivate person at that time as well and seeing that it was him, I had no reason to doubt him, no.

MR LAX: To doubt.  If I may just say, you're welcome to speak Afrikaans, I'm quite fluent in Afrikaans, I just struggle with speaking Afrikaans from time to time, but I am fluent in it.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: He said the order came from HQ, did he name any people at head office?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chair, not at that stage.

MR BOOYENS: It would not have been customary for a senior officer to give the name of another senior at HQ to a junior, so there was nothing strange about that?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Quite correct.

MR BOOYENS: Later in the application the name of Col Piet Goosen was mentioned and later you heard that he had been involved, did you know him?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I had met him at that stage, yes.  I knew him as well, of him.

MR BOOYENS: I think he was a Brigadier at that stage?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, Brig Goosen was the head of the Intelligence or possibly Second in Command, but he was a very senior member of the Intelligence Branch of the Security Force.  That's true.

MR BOOYENS: After the conversation between you and Col Visser about the problem that he had with this MK person, was there then a conversation between the two of you as to how to fulfil the command of Head Office?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That is correct.  It was clear that the person would have to be killed.  It also came out clearly that he had to disappear totally.  I can't remember whether it was I, myself, but we decided that we would make use of explosives to get rid of the person's corpse.  I did not know the rural areas in Transvaal at that stage, didn't know about a place that was deserted enough, where one could try and do this and I suggested that the only place that I knew of that was remote enough and suitable, was the Northern Natal area known as Zululand.

MR BOOYENS: You made the statement just now and I just want to make clear, you said it was clear that the person had to disappear, was that the instruction that you were given, that the person had to disappear?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's the way I remember it, Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: You then mentioned to him the possibility and was he open to this idea that you used Zululand, (a) Zululand and (b) explosives?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, he was.

MR BOOYENS: You, at that stage Mr van Zyl, you knew the Zululand area quite well?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's true.

MR BOOYENS: At some or other stage you realised that you needed an explosives expert, is that right?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: At some or other stage you called Sgt Donald Gold, is that right?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Let's just look at the history with Mr Gold.  You knew each other at the Security Branch Pietermaritzburg, is that right?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: In those days he was a Sergeant and you were a Warrant-Officer?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's right.  I arrived in Pietermaritzburg May or June 76 and I met Sgt. Gold the next year, got to know him the next year, when he came to Pietermaritzburg more often and eventually was stationed at the branch himself.

MR BOOYENS: Did you, after you left Pietermaritzburg when you were at Ladysmith, did you still have regular contact with Sgt Gold?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.  Sgt Gold was the explosives expert and the Inspector for the whole area.  He travelled quite a lot and gave lectures for institutions and schools in respect of preparedness and terrorism, as well as was also involved in arms exhibitions.  He was a very popular person for that type of speech.

MR BOOYENS: So let us call it counter propaganda on behalf of the Security Police/Government for what was known at that time as the terrorist attacks against South Africa?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I didn't see it as counter propaganda, I saw it as an effort to inform people and to keep them prepared for the real threats from time to time they would be faced with.

MR BOOYENS: What was your relationship with Sgt Gold?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I thought we were good friends, I think.

MR BOOYENS: Did you trust Sgt Gold?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, I did.

MR BOOYENS: And so you phoned him to help you?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Zyl, I know it's almost 20 years ago, but in other words you would not have naturally, not have told him to come to Zululand and to come and explode a corpse, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: But you did insinuate or give him symbolic images to tell him that he had to blow up something?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I can't remember my exact words or the exact images and symbols I used, it was a between-the-lines conversation.  I tried to explain to him that it was a very delicate operation and that he had to bring along the explosive and that that would be the purpose of his presence during the operation.

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Zyl, one can use explosives for a bridge or a person to be exploded, to be blown up.  Did you try and give him an indication, more or less, what the scope of the operation would have been, for instance if he needed to blow up a bridge, he would have needed a lot of explosives, maybe 5 ton.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I can't remember Mr Chair.  I would guess that I would have given him some suggestion that it was not as big a job as a bridge.

MR BOOYENS: What was your arrangement with Mr Gold?  Where would you meet and when?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: As far as I can recall, he would meet me the next morning early and I judged that I would be driving through the night to fetch the deceased and to transport him to Zululand.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Gold says that you met at Mbazwana, what do you say about that?