Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Just to add that I have spoken to the legal representative of the people injured and killed at the incident, none of those given instructions recall, who were injured, recall a Mr Baker anywhere near the scene.  We have also found out that there is - a Mr Baker featured in this docket of this and there is some medical records of this.  As to why it was not placed before the Court and after  requests for further particulars by my legal team in 1987, I can only speculate that it is because he was a Security Policeman and it would affect statistics if his name is included in there.

MR DEHAL: It was a secret they kept from us in the trial?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes sir.

MR DEHAL: And you say that Mr Mall's clients have confirmed through Mr Mall that they had not known of Mr Baker at the time?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.  It is the first time they heard about him today, when they were here.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  If I may now take you to paragraph 13 of Exhibit G.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I have that.

MR DEHAL: You see this deals with the Why Not bar, commonly known as the Magoo's incident which took place on the Marine Parade here in Durban on the 14th of June 1986.  This is an incident which would fall within the ambit of those charges that were preferred against you in the trial in this matter, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And is dealt with by you in your application for amnesty on paragraph 9(a)(i), correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: And of course features in the preliminary pages to the bundle, bundle A1?  Sorry, if I may just find this.  Yes, it is number 17 on page 9 of the bundle?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.   If you will just go through this slowly, beginning with paragraph (i) and then you come to the paragraph dealing with the reconnaissance and Intelligence gathering and go through that slowly as well.
MR McBRIDE
	"Persons involved in this operation were myself, Matthew Lecordier who was unaware of what was taking place, Greta Apelgren who was also unaware of what was taking place and my Commander Rashid Aboobaker Ismail who gave the command."

MR DEHAL: If I may just stop you there.   It is not contended by you at all that Mr Rashid, that is Mr Ismail, the first applicant was ever aware of Why Not itself as being the target in your discussions with him outside South Africa, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.  He did not know of the specific target.

MR DEHAL: If you will then proceed, you say others were Mnisi.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: "Others were Mnisi, Dumakude and Pule."

MR DEHAL: Those would be the other three applicants, that is the 2nd, 3rd and 4th applicants in this matter?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.  I knew them as Vic, Chris and Oupa.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, that is their code names, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Did they train you specially for this, to commit offence in this incident?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I was trained specifically for their car bomb.  I use the word "their" and not "the" because they were aware that a car bomb operation was to be carried out by my unit.  At the stage when I was given the instruction, I had not been, yet been instructed in a car bomb, I did not know how to go about it.

JUDGE PILLAY: And this operation would not be, you would not be able to carry it out without their contribution, is that what you are saying?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Proceed Mr McBride.  You were at the point where you said others were Mnisi, Dumakude and Pule whom you knew by their code names, Vic, Oupa and Chris.
MR McBRIDE
	"They were involved in training me, giving me political education and also were involved in the guidelines and policies and guidance and selection of targets.  Three persons died and it was reported that 69 were injured in the operation.  The deceased were Angelique Pattendon, Julie van der Linde and Marchelle Garrard.  The purpose of the operation was to commemorate the raid on Gaberone in which 12 people were killed, including ANC members, women, that is plural, and a child.  None of the people were military personnel of the ANC at that time.  It was also intended to commemorate the massacre of school children on the 16th of June 1976.  This was the 10th anniversary.  It was also intended as an operation of taking the struggle into the white areas as per ANC policy.  
	The material supplied by the ANC for this operation, was material (I am deleting in part), material to be used in the car bomb.  (I cannot recall at this stage why it is in part there.)

MR DEHAL: Isn't that because you had kept one of the SZ6's?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, I will come back to that later on.
"The instructions were that the car bomb be used against Security Force personnel wherever they might be, whether in uniform or out of uniform, on duty or off duty.  In this operation instructions were received by me from comrade Rashid, that I should not make use of all SZ6 charges for this operation."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr McBride, before you proceed, what is an SZ6 charge?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It is a demolition charge.  I think replica's of them were pointed out by Mr Richard to comrade Rashid.

CHAIRPERSON: In those photographs?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Those sort of square or rectangular devices?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR McBRIDE
	"As it was anticipated that there would be retaliation against perceived ANC bases in the neighbouring States and that we then should be in a position to be able to respond similarly in South Africa without having to come out to Botswana again for more material for this purpose."
	I can just elaborate my perception at this stage was that response to retaliation would serve as a deterrent on the South African regime at that stage, for attacking perceived ANC bases in the neighbouring States.   
"In this regard only one SZ6 charge was kept for retaliation for example by an attack on a police station, which we had reconnoitred previously.  In this particular case the Wentworth police station.  Intelligence gathering for this operation was thorough, unambiguous and over a long period of time by myself and others, in particular by Gordon Webster and his unit.  Gordon Webster was first given instructions to prepare a car bomb."

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr McBride, can you perhaps remember over what period you took particulars in preparation for this operation, reconnoitred and that type of thing?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: From the very beginning.

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes, how this plan evolved, over what period?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: From before Easter, I can only remember it like that.  Before Easter 1986 because the car bomb instructions were during the period we left, which I think was the Easter weekend when we were all in Botswana and that is how I remember it, and from then onwards, we had started working on it.  It was some time before Eastern because by the time, the last time I was together with Gordon, Vic, Chris and Oupa, already at that stage, a target including a bar, was discussed.   My recollection, already at that stage it was, had been reconnoitred and Intelligence had been gathered.

JUDGE PILLAY: By the time you went to Botswana?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Before Easter, yes.  The last time, I cannot remember exactly when it was, where all of us were together in Botswana.

JUDGE PILLAY: Over what period would you have taken to gather all this information in order to make that decision?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It is about six weeks, a month to six weeks from the first one.  That was before my personal involvement for the operation.

JUDGE PILLAY: From that time till the eventual execution of the plan is about three to three and a half months?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.