Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: As I have stated earlier, I think Mr Coetzer was there, but I cannot confirm this.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, he indicates in his statement that he was there.  What about Mr Roelof Brand?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I cannot recall that Mr Visagie was there.

CHAIRPERSON: That Roelof Brand that you are talking about is Mr Visagie, Roelof Brand Visagie?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Visagie, yes.  Those are his first names, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, I will correct my note.  In the arrest process, you started to say earlier what you were doing, just continue.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: If I recall correctly, I, when the signal was given ...

MR WILLS: We can remind you, is that common cause or is it so that the signal was the switching on of an indicator of the car?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I do not recall the specific signal sir.

MR WILLS: Okay, carry on.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think I moved around the vehicle to the other side of the vehicle.   I think I opened the door, I cannot recall whether it was the front or the back door, I can remember very little of what specifically took place there.  I recall that Mr du Preez grabbed Ms Khubeka by the shoulders and grab bed her to the kombi, dragged her or carried her.  I cannot recall whether she climbed out of the car or whether he took her out of the car and from that point, she was taken to the kombi and all of us climbed back into the kombi and departed for Winkelspruit.

MR WILLS: Can you remember the role of Mr Coetzer?  I know from what you said, it seems pretty clear that you don't actually remember Mr du Preez' role, that is basically, he has reminded you from evidence when you were listening here obviously, because you have just indicated exactly what he said in evidence, or do you recall that specifically?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I recall it as such, yes.

MR WILLS: From the incident?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You have now put two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you have an independent recollection of seeing Mr du Preez take hold of the deceased and carrying her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is not just because you have heard Mr du Preez giving evidence here that you can now remember it, or saying that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I recall specifically that Mr du Preez held her by the shoulders and took her to the kombi.

MR WILLS: Okay.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot remember Coetzer's participation, I cannot recall if he was indeed there, it is possible that he was there.

MR WILLS: What about Mr Botha, what did he do?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think that he went to one of the other doors.  I cannot recall specifically.

MR WILLS: You cannot even recall if he was there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Botha was there.

MR WILLS: I am asking you for an independent recollection, what makes you remember that he was there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't know what makes me remember it, but that is the way I remember it.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, sorry to interfere, but is it in dispute that she was arrested at Battery Beach, is that what the questions are about?

CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe there might be, when you use the word arrest, that might be disputed that it was an arrest, but taken possession of or detained.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it just occurs to us that we are all under pressure to accelerate the process, we are sitting here listening to questions which are taking the matter with the greatest respect, no further in assisting you to come to a conclusion on whether amnesty should be granted or not.  Where he was, who he saw, have absolutely nothing to do with what you have to consider at the end of the day, and I don't want to interfere Mr Chairman, and I have been sitting here very quietly, as you will testify to yourself, really at some stage or other, can we get to the bottom of this, get to grips with the real issues in the matter, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I submit with respect that the treatment of the woman, of a woman at a scene in that situation, is pertinent to the question of amnesty and particularly the issue of proportionality and it also leads to how she was treated later and I am wanting to know what the role of each of these individual people was from independent recollection.  I submit that it is relevant and pertinent.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you can carry on asking but let's see if we can pick up the pace.  Perhaps you can ask him you know, instead of dealing with each one and then asking a whole series of the same questions in respect of each person, let's see if we can do it a bit quicker.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, thank you.   You cannot recall anything about what Botha did?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not specifically, he was involved in the arrest but I cannot recall his specific involvement.  As I have stated, I cannot recall whether I went to the front door or the back door.

MR WILLS: Can you even remember how many people got out of the kombi?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think all of us climbed out.

MR WILLS: Did anybody run out and put a gun into anybody's stomach?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you all have your arms out at the time, your weapons?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, it would have been that way.

MR WILLS: Now, according to your evidence you were surprised that you found a woman in the car?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And I think, didn't it strike you that it wouldn't be necessary to handle her in such a rough and aggressive manner?  Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to come across the fact that she was a woman, and then say "well, can't you just, you are under arrest, can't you move into this truck?"

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not necessarily Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why?  Did you think of that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I did not.

MR WILLS: Now, where were you sitting in the kombi on the way back?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think I was sitting in the front, in the passenger seat.

MR WILLS: Can you remember who was in the kombi at that stage?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It was all of the people who were there when we arrived there.

MR WILLS: Plus the arrested person obviously?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So nobody went and travelled in Mbane's car?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I know of.

MR WILLS: Did Ms Khubeka struggle when she was being arrested?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR WILLS: So you found it necessary to grab her and detain her physically and she didn't even struggle?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I didn't grab her.

MR WILLS: Well, when I say you, I refer to the police who were arresting her in plural?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is how it happened.

MR WILLS: Who was restraining her in the back?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I do not know.   As I recall I sat in the front of the vehicle.  Might I just add that from the front seats, one couldn't see into the back of the kombi, there was a partition.

MR WILLS: I want to get to the arriving at the place, at Winkelspruit shooting range.  Where was Mr Visagie?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that I saw Mr Visagie there, I cannot say.

MR WILLS: Can you remember seeing Mr Coetzer there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can recall seeing him there, but I don't know when precisely, I do recall that he was there.

MR WILLS: You can't recall whether this was after or before she died?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I would have seen him before that, yes and afterwards.

MR WILLS: And obviously Mr Taylor was there when you arrived?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: He was waiting for you when you got there, as I understand it?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: He was expecting somebody to be brought to be interrogated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And Mr Radebe?