Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, because in numbers 2 and 3, the later phases then vade(?) as a result of the involvement of the corridor, etc.
	I realise that the time frame was very limited, but that would have been the ideal culmination point for Plan Katzen.  This unity which would then be established, which would then have a constitutional element, one government, the aspirations are all amalgamated in one Xhosa people, so the leaving aside of those things which were important to me, was a watering down of the first course of action.
	But I realise that those actions were very politically sensitive and that is why I leave the opportunity here by means of courses of action 1, 2 and 3, that if the people who had to decide about this, did not actually want to take that step, those parts would not have to be carried out.

MR AVENANT: I am trying to understand this little play on words that was used.  The meetings were held in English, this is now the meetings with the Ciskei/Transkei allies and that we are dealing here with translations?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Correct.

MR AVENANT: But what I am trying to determine is this, the persons who attended the meetings, how would they have interpreted this and how would they have conveyed it?
	The meeting at Misikaba was attended by Major Van der Merwe and I am trying to find out how he would have reacted to these word plays, irrespective of what he says in his statement?  The fact is the Security Police withdrew from the operation immediately after this meeting?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.  I accept that a person like Major Van der Merwe who was involved right from cold as it were, would be able to view the matter with quite a great degree of objectivity.
	I am accepting that what he put in his statement, was correct and that is how he experienced it.  I may just add that I don't find anything that he says in his statement, strange.  I can accept his version.

MR AVENANT: I have no further questions.

MR AVENANT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Avenant.  Mr Claassen, do you have any questions?

MR CLAASSEN: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Penzhorn, do you have any questions?

MR PENZHORN: Once I have eventually got this thing on, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

MR PENZHORN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr der Hoven, do you have any questions?

MR VAN DER HOVEN: I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR VAN DER HOVEN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nontenga, do you have any questions?

MR NONTENGA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR NONTENGA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, do you have any questions?

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have some questions.
	General, can you remember Gen Gert Beetge, he was under your command?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.   I think he was a Major and I can't remember the exact period, but there was a stage in which he was in PE under my command.

MR JANSEN: Yes, will you accept it if he says that in 1986 he was transferred from Namibia to service in the Eastern Cape, so he was under your command from 1986, will you accept that?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I will.  I can't dispute that.

MR JANSEN: You will also accept that he was second in command of Intelligence?  He was second in command of your Intelligence staff in the Eastern Cape?
	Perhaps I should be a little bit more accurate,  he served under Colonel Rastie van Rooyen, was Rastie van Rooyen your Intelligence Officer?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Colonel Rastie van Rooyen was the Senior Staff Officer, Intelligence.  In my command, there was no second in charge or second in command in Intelligence.
	There were Senior Staff Officer 1 and 2, the SO 2's were Majors and the SO 1's were Commanders, Commandants.

MR JANSEN: Yes, I see he was an SO 2 in charge of Collection, I suppose that is the gathering of information.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Under Colonel Van Rooyen, there were several sections or divisions and each one of them, had a Captain or a Major or whatever at the head of it, but they were not Commanders in a staff sense of the word.  They simply were at the head of a particular section.

MR JANSEN: Can you recall an operation in 1986, operation by the name of Orpheus?

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, I really don't see the relevance of such an operation if it never existed?

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any relevance in this Mr Jansen?  On the face of it, it appears not, but if you can satisfy myself about the relevance of this, with regard to Operation Katzen, then we can decide whether the question be answered or not.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, you must understand the position from which I am asking these questions.  Firstly I am not asking them in any way in opposition to this amnesty application.
	I will have to seek certain answers from Gen Van der Westhuizen at some or other stage.  My client, Mr Hugo, it will be central to his application that he received, for what he is asking amnesty for, he either received orders or he reasonably perceived his actions to follow from orders.
	Now as I understood the original round table meeting that we had with Judge Wilson, was that we must try and shorten all these proceedings as much as possible.
	I will take possibly half an hour at the most at this proceedings, to ask Gen Van der Westhuizen certain questions about the Eastern Cape in general and - otherwise what will happen Mr Chairman, is at the time, at later Eastern Cape hearings, I will be compelled to seek Gen Van der Westhuizen's attendance then through a subpoena or somehow.

CHAIRPERSON: But if this is just to establish whether somebody did a particular act under orders, and that is not placed in issue at that applicant's hearing, you don't have to call the General who issued the order?  It will be accepted that he, on his evidence, unless there is opposition to the fact that he acted under orders, and it is a point in issue.
	I mean must we now listen to Operation Orpheus here which has got nothing whatsoever to do with this hearing?  I can't see, I wasn't present at that meeting where Judge Wilson sat, but I don't think that this can be used as a basis for Hugo's application, which has got nothing to do with this.
	If it had something to do with Katzen, I would go with it.

MR KNOETZE: May I just also add to that Mr Chairman, that obviously our client is not prepared to answer these questions, it is completely unfair to confront him with this, and I fully agree with yourself that it is an absolute waste of time of this Committee, misuse of this Committee's time.  It can never be brought under this heading.

CHAIRPERSON: If it had some link to this Operation Katzen, I can understand it, but otherwise you know, if that is the situation, you know at each and every hearing, not only of Security Force matters, but liberation movement matters, we could get a whole array of legal representatives asking questions of a particular person, for some application that has nothing to do with the application under consideration, just to get information to assist them in their later application, it would lead to chaos.