Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay.  Thank you very much, Joseph.  Your story's very similar to Sipho's.  I think for both of you we have noted your request, you have had different yet similar experiences and as I've said to others, we will forward your request for consideration.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I just want to ask one or two questions from either of the two witnesses.  The presence of the farmers, did you recognise any of them or it was only because they were wearing khaki  shorts?

WITNESS:   (Mr Khonzana)  I recognised them with the clothes that they were wearing and they have long beards.

MR DLAMINI: But none of them you could perhaps recognise as so-and-so?

WITNESS:   I couldn't identify any.

MR DLAMINI: And my next question is in your own opinion why were the farmers interested in the things that were happening in the township?

WITNESS:   According to my own understanding when there were riots they would call the farmers to come and help the police in Theunissen.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Bara, thank you for very much for coming forward.  We are just sorry that you became the victims of the circumstances until one of you had to be involved in dagga and be arrested.  I don't think that was your own fault.  I think it was because of the circumstances which prevailed in the country.  You wanted to get the ways of supporting your family.  We think that you were trying to be very responsible but of course used methods which are not acceptable.  We can see very well here that if there were some people who were colluding with the system, some of them were doctors.  I don't think that the oath which is taken by doctors called the Hippocratic Oath which they take when they become doctors that they would serve anybody does really allow a person like Dr Storm to refuse a person and say that a person must be put in a storeroom.  I think in that he broke the very oath that he took when be became a doctor and those actions need to be revisited.  Maybe he himself has to come forward and tell us why he broke his oath as a doctor and not treat a human being when he was in need.  What also impresses  me in this statement which is before me which is that one of Eric is that in spite of all what he has suffered he still thinks about the community.  I just want to cite some of the things he says here.  He says that as a reparation they would ask for the proper roads leading to the community township and also maybe monuments for those who died.  That's in itself reveals that you are very community orientated and of course you suffered because you wanted to defend your community.  Well, thank you very much, we have noted what you have asked for and we shall pass this to the government who has to make a decision.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Again I want to remind you about the process that when the witnesses are being led out we all stand and be quiet and unfortunately I want to repeat what I said yesterday that unfortunately the tea is only provided for the staff and the witness.  By staff I mean those who are serving us here, TRC, in different ways.  Those are the people who receive tea and the witnesses.  And when the witnesses are moving out, we stand and remain quite.  We are going to come back at quarter two.  We're already behind schedule.  If we have to finish we have to try and move forward.  At quarter to twelve will you please come.  We just drink tea quickly.  May we stand when the witnesses are being led out.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that you have come here to tell the story about the detention and the death of you brother, Bitising Thaele and before you do that we would like you to stand up and take an oath that what you're going to say here is true, God being your helper.

LITABE THAELE: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I'm going to call upon Mrs Regina Gcabashe to lead the process to help you when you tell your stories.  Thank you.

MRS GCABASHE: You have come here to tell us about the detention of you brother as well as his death.  Is that so?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MRS GCABASHE: Before we even get further with the matter, I just want you to give us a brief background about your family.  What are you doing now?

WITNESS:   I'm working as a security guard.

MRS GCABASHE: Whereabouts are you working?

WITNESS:   I'm working in Welkom.  I'm working at Electro Guard.

MRS GCABASHE: What standard did you pass?

WITNESS:   I passed Standard 10.

MRS GCABASHE: Just tell us briefly about our family, whether you have sisters, brothers, as well as parents?

WITNESS:   We are nine at home.  Two have since been deceased so we are left with only seven members of the family but they are not present at the moment.  They are at home.

MRS GCABASHE: Are they attending school?

WITNESS:   Yes, there are some who are attending school.  Five are attending school.

MRS GCABASHE: How many are working?

WITNESS:   I'm the only one  who's working at the present moment.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you have parents?

WITNESS:   I still do have both parents.

MRS GCABASHE: What are they doing?

WITNESS:   They are also not working.

MRS GCABASHE: Is it because they're on pension or are they sick?

WITNESS:   No, they are very sickly because of their ages.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you give us a brief background as to the circumstances surrounding your brother's arrest and detention and the consequent death?  What was happening at that place, that is where you were staying in Welkom or Tabong?

WITNESS:   We had gone to see my brother on the ... (intervention)

MRS GCABASHE: Let me interrupt you.  That is before the 25th.  I want you to give us a picture as to what led to your brother's arrest and detention.  Give us the circumstances before that.

WITNESS:   Now, he was working.  There was nothing happening on the 24th.  There was absolutely nothing.  It was just quiet at the residential area.

MRS GCABASHE: There were no fights or riots?

WITNESS:   None whatsoever.

MRS GCABASHE: Let's come to the 25th of September 1991 when this occurrence took place.

WITNESS:   On the 25th I was in town with my brother and we separated.  We went our different ways.  We went our different paths.  He said he was going to pay his accounts.  He said he was going to pay his account and we decided that we were going to meet later at the bank.  We went to the bank.  We waited for him but he didn't turn up and we decided to walk around town looking for him until we met one guy who was  accompanying him at that time and he told us that he had just been arrested by the police and we asked as to where he was taken to.  He said they said they were going to interrogate him and bring him bach.  And we met certain security guards and they told us that my brother said he had lost some money.

MRS GCABASHE: Who had lost some money?