Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-17

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I was asked several times by the Truth Commission as well what happened and what was said.  I cannot recall exact words, but if I walked out and told my junior members, look boys, if they shoot at us then we take them out, then that is possible, but it did not come from Liebenberg or Odendal that we had to shoot them dead that morning.  That is as far as I can recall.

MR P WILLIAMS: But did you agree that most of the members who left that meeting were under the impression that their mission would have been to kill these people?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I do not agree completely.  I think in that particular situation the Black townships in the Cape were so tense at the time and so ungovernable that, actually, everybody knew what was going on and we knew that there was daily shooting incidents and the Riot Squad and so on.  I cannot actually speak on anybody elses behalf.

MR P WILLIAMS: But you have also not, my client says in his amnesty application that he left that meeting with the impression that the mission was to kill those people.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If that was his impression then I will assume the full responsibility for that, for the decisions taken there and I will assume the responsibility for decisions which were misunderstood.  So, I have no problem with it if that is the way he interpreted it, because I was in command. I accept responsibility.

MR P WILLIAMS: The group that was eventually shot on, I will refer to them as guerrillas, I think you mentioned previously that that group consisted of a, between approximately ten to 17 members.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.  Afterwards we were told that some of them had actually run away and got away and earlier this year I asked the Truth Commission to find us that video and there was a programme by Max du Preez where it was, he was on one of Max du Preez's programmes and he sat with his back to the camera and he said how bad the askaris were and that he did not trust them and that they were the well trained terrorists.  So, yes, some people got away.  I cannot remember exact figures.

MR P WILLIAMS: Sir, what I find quite amazing is that, is the total absence of arrests whatsoever even though your group had the capacity to infiltrate that group on numerous occasions and in this respect I refer to the infiltration of Sergeant Mbelo, I refer to the infiltration of Eric Maluleka, Jimmy Mbane.  Somewhere else we also hear that Mr Liebenberg had his own sources who were inside the group and I assume that these different people infiltrated that group at various stages, at the different stages.  Do you want to comment on that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I, my, infiltrated or my colleague infiltrated at one point and he returned, because he said the, his legend was not in order and he told me how fearless those men were.  So, it was not an easy task to arrest these people.  They slept in a different place every night, they had different addresses and I cannot comment on what Lieutenant Liebenberg discussed with his source.

MR P WILLIAMS: But how were you able to infiltrate this group on a regular basis, who, on more than one occasion?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: When I was sent down to Cape Town I was asked to come and take over where other members were, apparently, not able to obtain success.  So, they had already prepared the ground for me and for me and the askaris to continue. So, I actually inherited somebody elses problems and I did some research at the Security Branch.  I found out who are the suspects, who are the activists, let us send these people there.  Mbelo, at some point, he was in the cells with one of the suspects and, perhaps, he can testify to that, I have not got more details.  So, yes, we actually tried to find out where these activists were and we tried to information from all quarters just so that we could actually support our legend, but it was easier said than done.

MR P WILLIAMS: Will you agree with me that in order for Jimmy Mbane or Eric Maluleka to infiltrate this group someone who or their superiors or whoever sent them had to tell them, here is an address, you go to this place?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: There was a man by the name of Oscar Mpeta or Mpetla, he was in a wheelchair here in Guguletu, and according to the security police information, many of the people went to him, so that was a good start, it was a good contact point.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, couldn't the police, through establishing contact with Mr Mpeta, then find out where the group was and proceed to that address and arrest them?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Williams must ask Mr Liebenberg that, but according to their information the Cape Town Security Police had absolutely no information, not a scrap of information.  Vlakplaas actually started gathering information.

MR P WILLIAMS: Sir, you see, this seems to confirm my client's view that the mission of the group was, of the police was to kill the group and not to arrest them?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I have said earlier, if that is the way he interpreted it, I will assume full responsibility for that.  I will not, do not want to dispute the matter with him now.  At that stage we were in a, waging a war, we were actually fighting a battle and if that is the way he sees it, then I will take responsibility for that.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, elsewhere in the Section 29 hearings you also say something to the effect,
"But you know what policemen are like together, they get excited and they might have said we will shoot them dead.  I cannot deny that."
Those are your words.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.  Policemen make statements like that.  You also saw and heard it on the video how the one man sort of dramatised the events.  I do not know who said it, but it does happen.

MR P WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, I notice it is one o' clock by now.  Maybe we should adjourn at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, you are not going to finish.  We will take the long adjournment until two' clock.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS (cont)

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: (Still under oath).

MR P WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Bellingan, I want to refer you to part of your testimony where you refer to the fact that, what you call, head-money was paid to the askaris and to certain policeman for this incident.  Can you confirm that Mr Mbelo was one of these people who received a portion or some amount?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I cannot say whether Mr Mbelo received any money, but the two askaris did.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, in his application Mr Mbelo states that he received R1 000,00.  Can you tell the Commission was the issue of head-money discussed at the planning meeting early in that morning?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, no it was normal practice, as I have previously said, people came from, money, sorry, came from the secret fund to motivate the askaris.  That was not discussed that morning.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, Mr Mbelo also says that he at no stage, prior to the incident, knew that he was going to get an award of some kind for this incident.  Do you have any knowledge of that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR P WILLIAMS: Then, Mr Bellingan, I am not going to be very long with you.  I just want to clear up a few other points.  In your statement or previously you have mentioned the fact that the two askaris that infiltrated this group prior to Mr Mbelo and my instruction from Mr Mbelo is that he was sent to infiltrate this group, this specific group, before the two askaris.  Do you want to comment on that?