Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CHAIRPERSON: You were once a station commander here and then you also worked in the office of the commissioner of police, you took over after General van Niekerk, Brigadier Hertzog Lerm, I'm sure you're also aware that your name has come up in many instances that, cases that we've heard, that there have been implications that you may have been involved in either the detentions of people or assaults of people. I'd like you to, I know you have prepared a submission which we're very grateful for, you speak about your time here in Kwandebele and if you could also speak a bit to these allegations that have been made. Thank you Senior superintendent.

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson thank you, for the opportunity to place things in perspective after all the allegations that have been made. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the statement that I have with me to hand to you, but round about 1990, when I appeared before that Parsons Commission, I also had one.  In short my role in Kwandebele was initially to be station commander (training official) at  Siyabuswa station.  In October '85 I arrived here and in '86, round about a year later I was promoted to the rank of captain and I was then placed in the office of the Commissioner of Police, that was Brigadier Lerm, and I encountered these riots round about the start of '86 when this occurred and I heard at the radio, I was in the charge office often and I took note of some of these incidents that MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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took place that people have testified about, and at some stage, I want to mention this, round about May '86, I was informed of a mass meeting that was held at Ngonyama's kraal, that is where the Mhlangus stayed. I sped there to enquire what was going on, I spoke with Cornelius Mhlangu and he told me that he was awaiting for the arrival of the cabinet members and I deduced that it had to do with the issue of independence and that they wanted to have more information, because they didn't have enough information.    And as a result of the fact that at that stage it was illegal to meet in such a way, I told him that they should disperse and they did that.  On 13 May approximately a week later, a similar incident happened where masses of people were called together to have a meeting with the Ngenyama's kraal.  I didn't go there myself but later I learned from the radio that tear gas was used and that the police were acting against these people who were having an illegal meeting. Later, after the incident that I refer to now, businesses were set alight, there were many complaints, dockets were opened, people were assaulted, people were necklaced, and round about 26 May, I was accompanied by Captain Malan who was in the Commissioner's office and I accompanied him to the cabinet members and I was requested, who was one of the victims and whose property was burned and I was requested to take his statement.
 I took him to my office, I got a complete statement from him with regard to his rendition of how this event occurred on the 13th of May.  The statement was used for a case docket that was investigated later on and many people were implicated in the statement. There was mentioned that lists of businesses that would be set alight was also 
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mentioned to me by him.  I don't know what his position was. It seems that he was very close to the Inganyama kraal but he had information concerning lists of businesses that had to be burned and the people who were also involved. Things then progressed and cases were investigated and then in the meantime after this incident, on the 13th of May, many youths were arrested on the scene of property that was burned and damaged and there a state of emergency was called out on the particular law through which this was enacted. And this was then executed by these particular forces that were deployed in Kwandebele, many youths were arrested based on the fact that they were caught red handed, or because of information that was investigated.  
 I myself was not involved but people were detained in the cells in Siyabuswa and also in other places in Kwandebele.
 In October when I went to the Commissioner's office, when I was moved there after my promotion, I was given another assignment and that was to get statements from people  who would suffer damage during these riots.  I obtained many statements from these victims, some of them fled to areas such as Verena, I went there.  I took statements from many people.  From people who would have seen people being necklaced.  These statements I compiled and I had a whole bundle of them, and in the meantime the state of emergency regulations, that was the responsibility of the security police, that was lieutenant Cliff de Beer.  He was in charge of that. 
 When I started there I had to take over this
administration.  I took over this administration, we opened new files, if I refer to we, it's myself and then another 
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two, three men who joined me later on, and these statements that I obtained from some of these detained people, I put in their files so that we would have sufficient evidence to then detain these people under the State of Emergency regulations or if there shouldn't be any grounds, then further that they be  ). I had an archive of statements where people are implicated and I have to mention here that people who were in charge of businesses were named as people who took the initiative to get the school children together to orchestrate them to actually commit these deeds and sometimes the victims of the arson was also involved here. The result was then the statements were used in the detention and further detention longer than 14 days, it was changed to 30 days later on, that should have been authorised by the minister at that stage.
 Now the motivation for authorisation for longer detention was sent through.  I did it by hand to Head Office, the Security Branch, that's Brigadier Cronje, he was the chairperson of the committee who could decide on further detention to detain them longer than 14 days at that stage. So many people were detained, unfortunately I don't have the record with me, it was left in the office where I last worked, the files were also left there, I think the record might be available, I don't know, I never enquired.
 In '87 this state of emergency was repealed but it was continued immediately again, so there was a decision to be made concerning people who were then in detention whether the person should not have been involved in crime any more, whether he should now still be detained, based on this statement that would now have confirmed this.
 My function was administration, as I obtained 
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personnel, in the end we were a total of seven. I was confined to my office and I arranged meetings with lawyers to see their clients and I had people on ground level doing the investigations, Captain Kloppers was in charge of this group.  With administration I had two or three ladies and then I can also mention that the next thing I heard was that I had to move from Kwandebele, that I've been transferred, and that's how things stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that Senior Superintendent de
Jager.

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson I want to tell the interpreter that he can use Superintend., it's shorter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that, or maybe even just Super.
Before asking you about some activities here, I'd just like you, for the record, to speak to allegations that have been made that you were involved in actual assaults or torturing of people. I don't have the specific names in front of me here but do you want to make a general statement on that allegation that you were personally involved in assaulting people, in torturing people, in physically mishandling people?