Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  An informer's number, check P, page 1.  Page 1, "Code number of source."

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That's just below the date.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The code number is PN 666.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No strokes, no strokes.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Next one, paragraph 1 "Informant PN 664."  No strokes and Gen Steyn was clear, he said PN, he said G for a person they have touched but do not know his reliability.  When the person is tested and becomes reliable, PN and a number.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: If the person has been a uniform policeman and goes undercover, RS.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I agree with him.

MR VISSER: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: If you're looking at the top of the list Mr Visser, I take it you're not suggesting that PNV 4 means an informer.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I simply don't know, I'll have to find out what the evidence is in this regard.  But be that as it may, all of this is February 1988.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sure.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it's running towards half-past.  I have obvious difficulties with this document.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) already anticipated what going to happen ...(indistinct)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Except Sir, I would really plead that one appointment I can't cancel and that is, I need to fly off by 2 o'clock tomorrow.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps by what I'm going to say now, it may or may not solve the problem for Mr Maharaj.  I have the problem that Botha sits in Pretoria at the moment.  I'll have to try to get hold of him and see whether I can discuss these matters over the telephone.  Perhaps telefax it through to him and then discuss it over the telephone but there may be a hitch in that we might have to ask you to allow this matter to stand down until we meet again which will be on Monday next week.  Now perhaps we can sort this whole problem out by asking Mr Maharaj through the Chair right now whether that would suit him better or not?

CHAIRPERSON: We have already anticipated having a different Committee next week.

MR VISSER: I wasn't aware of that Mr Chairman.  Yes, I wasn't aware of that.  Oh yes, you did mention it to me, I just forgot.

MS POSWA: Mr Chair, can I just ask my colleague over there whether Mr Steyn is not in a position to clarify these issues as a person who was a member of the Security Branch and he's right here in Durban.  I am certain he would be able to clear any questions Mr Visser will have about code names and code numberings.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I prefer to do my research the way I believe it should be done.  You have seen Mr Steyn yourself and heard his evidence, he's very uncertain about even.

CHAIRPERSON: No.  Things I think you could certainly do, Mr Visser is with Mr Steyn's assistance, if you're having trouble getting through, find out from someone here, there must still be some people around, what PNV4 means, things of that, I'm saying not what he wrote but the actual technical details you should be able to sort out.  The other is, I see your problem.  I may say that a member of the Committee has already said that in the light of this evidence, it would perhaps be necessary to recall Mr Botha, so do what you can to get in touch with him this evening.

MR VISSER: Would you like me ask him whether he can come back again tomorrow, Mr Chairman, to be recalled?

CHAIRPERSON: I think so.

MR VISSER: It might be a problem, he's, in a professional way he works for himself basically now and he has been sitting around, but I'm not tendering that as an excuse.  I certainly will try to get him here.

CHAIRPERSON: Or we could do it later in the week perhaps, Thursday or Friday.

MR VISSER: Later in the week Mr Chairperson I have to be ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Mr Visser, it does appear from this document that two of your other clients are both named throughout these documents, if might help you a little bit anyway.

MR VISSER: No we'll obviously see how far we can get, but if we can get shot of this Mr Chairman, we'll definitely do so.

CHAIRPERSON: It think that's the best we can do.  What about tomorrow morning, 9 o'clock?

MR VISSER: We're used to starting at 9.30 Mr Chairman, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: If we start at 9.30 and you've got your information will you be finished by 12 o'clock.  Mr Chairman, I don't, it depends a lot on the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should.

MR VISSER: But probably.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's limit it to a ...(intervention).

MR VISSER: I'll be brief, Mr Chairman.  I see Mr Lax is laughing.

MR LAX: We've heard that one before.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Visser should know that I always pull surprises on him.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS