Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KUNY: Presumably at this meeting that issue was then discussed?  Do you recall that or not?

TATO MOTLANA: You are tying me down to meetings Mr Chairman, please.  I can't recall ...[indistinct] meetings took place.

CHAIRPERSON: I also just wanted to find out.  I thought that largely one would seek to have confined your interest to the interest of your particular client, that the questions would be related to your client but I think you go all over the place.

MR KUNY: With respect Mr Chair, I do believe this is in the interest of my client, I don't want to give ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: One.

MR KUNY: I have one further question.

CHAIRPERSON: One question yes.

MR KUNY: I merely want to refer to the next sentence of this memorandum Doctor Motlana and it reads as follows
"Also confirms to Bishop Storey, Winnie Mandela's refusal to let him have access when he first visited her"
Do you recall that being confirmed?

TATO MOTLANA: Which sentence is that?

MR KUNY: That's the third sentence on the top of the page.

TATO MOTLANA: On page 6?

MR KUNY: Page 6 of the memorandum.
MR MOTLANA
"Motlana sees Winnie"
It's the third paragraph.

MR KUNY: It's the third line sorry.
MR MOTLANA
"PJS informs Mbangula at 6 p.m. of official withdrawal of Verryn from Soweto on leave"

MR KUNY: No, that's not it.

TATO MOTLANA: Where are you then?

MR KUNY: Page 6 of Bishop Storey's memorandum.

TATO MOTLANA: Yes, it is page 6.  Just begin reading.

MR KUNY: It starts
"PJS, John Reece, Sizwe Mbanda, C Motlana"
At the top.

TATO MOTLANA: Yes.
MR KUNY
"Motlana confirms wisdom of PJS's refusal to go"

TATO MOTLANA: Yes.

MR MADLOPA: The sentence doesn't say
"Motlana"
The sentence actually says:
"also confirms"
And "also" is not Motlana.

MR VALLY: I think my learned friend is wrong, he should have looked at the second sentence
"Motlana confirms wisdom of PJS's refusal"

CHAIRPERSON: I'm glad I'm just a retired Archbishop.  I mean really, what we are doing with words and so on - and ask your very last question.

MR KUNY: No, it's the same question, I merely want to put to the witness there that it says in Bishop Storey's notes
"Also confirms to PJS, Winnie Mandela's refusal to let him have access when he first visited her"
In other words, did you tell Bishop Storey on this occasion - did you repeat the information that Mrs Mandela refused to let you have access when you first visited her?  You seem somewhat confused Doctor Motlana.

TATO MOTLANA: I told you that I never asked for access.  He keeps on repeating this question.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Kuny I don't think that that is a fair comment and I think that the witnesses are seeking to be as helpful as possible.  He's saying that he isn't as young as he used to be and up to now on the whole you have avoided being either sarcastic or so on and I would you will remain that way or even make people feel that you were insulting.
 I will not permit that to be the kind of manner in which we proceed here.  If he can't answer the question, he can't answer the question and if he says he can't remember, he can't remember and then let us make the inference.

MR KUNY: May I just make myself clear, I'm not intending to be sarcastic or demeaning in any way and if the witness - if Doctor Motlana is not sure, I'm quite satisfied that he should just say: "I cannot remember" or "I'm not sure".

CHAIRPERSON: You passed a remark which provoked him, he understood it when you said he looks confused.

MR KUNY: I apologise, I'm not intending to be sarcastic.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, that is what I'm trying to say.  I hope that we carry on our proceedings in a way that ensures that it's a sort generally amicable atmosphere that operates, thank you.  Yes?

MR SOLLER: Doctor Motlana, Peter Soller on behalf of Sekile Mbatha.  Can I ask you one question - looking through an affidavit of Mrs Albertina Sisulu, I see that she says in the practice of Doctor Asvat what they did was it was a standard procedure to take fingerprints of male patients in Doctor Asvat practice.  Is that normally a standard procedure in any medical practice in your experience.

TATO MOTLANA: I don't know Mr Chairman what other doctors do but it's a kind of thing that I wouldn't do in my 39 years of general practice - I never did that.

MR SOLLER: You'd concede that as rather strange.

TATO MOTLANA: Yes, I do.

MR SOLLER: Thank you doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other?  Thank you.  My panel?  Doctor Faizel?

DR RANDERA: Doctor Motlana, I want to actually go back before January when you come into contact on this issue of the abduction of young people and that's what we've been listening to for the last three to four days and particularly this morning and this afternoon from the leaders of the Crisis Committee when they talked and described the activities of the - whatever you want to call it, Mandela Football Club, young people, so let's not get stuck on the expression.
 We've heard about rapes, abductions, other activities by these young people, were you aware of the activities of this group of young people who it's alleged resided at Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, as one who lived in Soweto, who read the newspaper, who heard stories, I also heard about the happenings around the football club but I didn't have personal knowledge about those events or practices.

DR RANDERA: So you never had any opportunity to discuss this with Mrs Madikizela Mandela herself as a friend?

TATO MOTLANA: No, the only time I did it was when I was asked by Peter Storey to intervene on behalf of Paul Verryn.

DR RANDERA: Doctor Motlana, I just want to come to this issue of the 6th of January - and again we may have the dates wrong, so let's not get stuck on the dates but yesterday we heard for Bishop Storey and Bishop Verryn their concern about the abduction and Mr Mbangula also in his statement talks about when he returns from his holiday on the 7th of January that it's reported to him about the abduction.  Now one of the concerns - and we had Bishop Verryn actually apologising to Mrs Seipei yesterday, was on this issue of this young boy, a 14 year old, there was this concern about him being an informer and perhaps given the atmosphere of the time, given the culture of the time, that this put him in a great deal of danger.
 What I'm trying to understand in your answers to us in terms of the meeting that you had on the 6th or 7th or 8th with Mrs Mandela the first time, did Bishop Storey and the other clergy not discuss these concerns with you at the time?  And therefor when you went to see Mrs Mandela, did you not also go with that concern in terms of asking for the release of these young people?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, I really don't know how to answer that question.  When Peter Storey told me about the church's concern and when John Reece ...[intervention]

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Doctor Motlana, I'm just going back to your own statement.  You see, you're saying in your statement that you actually meet with the clergy at your house or at somebody else's house, besides the point of Peter Storey phoning you so there's actually a meeting that takes place.

TATO MOTLANA: Yes, there was a meeting.

DR RANDERA: Where a discussion takes place - I hope over a period of time, between you and the clergy where they're expressing all these concerns to you and you then go and see Mrs Mandela as I understand the sequence of events.  I've known you for a long time, I know you as a very empathetic, sympathetic doctor and human being.  Now, when you go to this house therefore, do you not take those concerns with you in your discussion with Mrs Mandela?

TATO MOTLANA: Clearly Mr Chairman, I would have done that.  My answer to you Sir, is that as a concerned member of the community, as a friend of the family, as a medical attendant to the family, clearly those discussion would have a reason - clearly.