Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I can't really remember whether the member was already in the Security Branch or not.  But anyway Mr Chivasa was already in the Security Branch.  The other, Nerenjene was a new member.  I don't know whether in the 1982's he was in the Security Branch.  I can't remember.  However, he was a member of the Security Branch.  I can only remember that he came at a later stage.  I don't know whether it was in the '82's.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela is going to testify that you yourself, Mr Nerenjene and Mr Chivasa arrested him on the 12th of November 1981 and you are one of the people who tortured him.  What do you say to this?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I cannot dispute that, the fact that I arrested him, I cannot dispute that.  Also to the fact that I tortured him, I cannot dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Mr Nesamari if you don't dispute that you arrested Mr Mahumela and if you also don't dispute that you tortured him, do you also not dispute that on from the 12th of November, the day of his arrest, up to the 14th of November 1981 Mr Mahumela lost consciousness and he didn't know his whereabouts and he would like to - do you dispute these facts?

CHAIRPERSON: ....and Ms Mtanga let's - if we could just get this clear.  You say he lost consciousness - was he knocked out physically unable to do anything or did he lose - has he lost memory of what happened during that period of time?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson as a result of the beating and the torture he received from Mr Nesamari and his team on the 12th, the day they arrested him, he lost consciousness on the same day and he only recovered on the 14th of November 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that Mr Nesamari?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well are you saying the time he was arrested, the spot where he was arrested or in the office or where, I just want to know exactly where the question is leading me ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't - look what's being put to you is that this man that you arrested on the 12th of November was rendered unconscious after his arrest.  It doesn't matter whether it was at the place where he was arrested or in the motor car going to the office or in the office there.  He was rendered unconscious and he remained unconscious right through from the date of his arrest, that is the 12th of November through to the 14th of November.  Now what do you say to that?  That's what is being put to you that the witness will say, the victim will say, Mr Mahumela.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I cannot recall that section in which he was unconscious.  I cannot recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that it's the sort of incident that would be difficult to forget?  I mean if you render, through beating a person unconscious, you render him unconscious and he remains unconscious for two, over two days or two days, that that would be an extremely worrying time.  Would this person die or not would have been on the forefront ...(intervention)

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well you see if he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you can't even remember whether he was unconscious or not?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well if it had happened before me I don't think really I cannot recall that.  I will be able to think about that and remember, but I cannot really put it in the picture as to how he became unconscious.

CHAIRPERSON: The thing is not as to how he became unconscious, but can you remember him being unconscious, lying there prone, unable to speak, not responding to anything said to him or done to him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I cannot recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Let us assist you.  You have just admitted that you were part of the team that went to arrest him.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that was on the 12th of November.  After that you must have interrogated him, did you not?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I can't really recall that on the date as to when.  That could be the date.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  But after arresting him you must have conducted some kind of interrogation, immediately after arresting him.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which is on the 12th of November.  Was the interrogation conducted on the 12th of November on Mr Mahumela?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well like I am saying I cannot recall, specifically with the date I cannot recall the date.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you arrest him and take him to your interrogation room on the same day?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I am not clear.  Well I am told that he was arrested at work.  It could have been after hours.  I don't know whether he was taken to the office or to the prison.  I can't really have a picture on that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you admit to having been part of the people who effected an arrest on him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I can't dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Do you know a lady by the name of Tinavuyo Rambuwane?  She used to work with your team.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Did she assault Mr Mahumela?  Did she kick Mr Mahumela?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes she did kick Mr Mahumela.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Mtanga, could you please just give me the name of that person again, I didn't catch it.

MS MTANGA: The name is Tinavuyo Rambuwane.   If you cannot recall interrogating and torturing Mr Mahumela how do you know that Tinavuyo indeed kicked Mr Mahumela?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I was around in the office.  I am not saying that I don't know about the torture of Mr Mahumela.  What I said initially is that I cannot have a clear recollection as to how much I was involved, personally.  But with regard to Tinavuyo's kicking, I witnessed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga has she been given notice as an implicated person?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson I just got instructions from the victim now.

CHAIRPERSON: There will have to be notice given in terms of the Act, section 34 I think it is, 30, yes, 30.

MS MTANGA: That will be done Chairperson.
	Mr Nesamari are you now admitting that you were present when Mr Mahumela was being interrogated and tortured?

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman I want to object to this question.  I think this witness has now made it clear that he cannot recall whether - he said it was a possibility that he was involved and he might even himself have assaulted Mr Mahumela.  But he said repeatedly that he is not sure about it and he can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the fact that this lady's name has been mentioned might jog his memory.  It's come up for the first time now and he says that he knows that she kicked him.  Does that bring back any memory about your participation  - relating to your involvement on the torture of Mr Mahumela?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I still don't have a picture on my involvement and beating of him.  Well I don't think I won't have a role and dispute that.  That is why I am saying I am unable to explain exactly how I played a part in regard to the torture and assault.  Well I did admit that I might have possibly participated but I don't remember exactly what happened.  That is why I am not able to say exactly how unconscious he was and whether he became unconscious.

MS MTANGA: Mr Nesamari Mr Mahumela will testify, and I would like to put to you what he will be testifying on, he will testify that you were part of the team that kicked and beat him together with Tinavuyola Mbowane and at the time he lost consciousness you were there.  And at the time he lost consciousness that's when Tinavuyo was kicking him on the head.  Do you dispute this?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well by the time it happened, especially with regard to the kicking I think I did admit I was there.  But for the fact that he became unconscious I cannot tell exactly what happened.  But I did witness when Tinavuyo kicked him.  I am not saying I did kick him.  I don't think that possibly happened.  However, it might have happened.