Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

ADV SANDI: Which part of Holiday Inn were they going to be, were they going to visit the drinking section of the hotel or go and stand at the entrance part of the Holiday Inn?  Where exactly were they going to be there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The information which I'd received indicated that they would have an appointment with a lady person, a female person - I'm not exactly sure whom.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I go back, I don't understand still I'm afraid, why the delay?  You said you were very well known you might have been seen, how would it make the position any better to wait for 24 hours?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I had explained Mr Chairperson, because it was such a covert action we just used the opportunity but somebody could have seen us along the way.  There were many factors that we had to be aware of, they were also well known, an activist could have identified them or me and that was the reason.
	It was part of the planning that if somebody had seen us, we wouldn't immediately when we arrived there have done the elimination.  We arrived there when it was dark and we had to collect the fire wood as well etc., so these were all factors that had to be taken into account.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say you had to collect the firewood I can understand it but I cannot understand how a 24 hour delay would in any way aid you if you had been identified.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, we abducted them the evening of the 14th, we arrived there late, the next day the 15th that evening we eliminated them Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When you abducted them, was that before they got to the Holiday Inn?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, it was when they left the Holiday Inn.

CHAIRPERSON: You stopped their vehicle I take it and they recognised you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you point guns at them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, they didn't resist at all.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then drove off and told them you were going to interrogate them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then drove to Cradock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You went and met Mr van Rensburg and changed cars, what vehicle did you drive to Cradock in with them or what - you didn't you were in their car, what vehicle were they in?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They were with Messrs van Rensburg and du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: In what sort of vehicle?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: His official vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was a Cortina.

CHAIRPERSON: And they thought they were being taken to be interrogated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of which they were driven to Cradock, a long way away?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they not in a state of great alarm when you arrived at Cradock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, if I think back there was no perceptible revelation of alarm or distress because they were under the impression that we were going to interrogate them.

CHAIRPERSON: This was a man who had already accused the police of trying to kill him by poisoning him, he gets dragged off at night into the wilds and you say there was no alarm?  You took him to a building that was not a working police station, it was not working offices, it was a building all by itself wasn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened when you got there?  You just let them go to bed did you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened when you got there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We took them into the house, they were provided with camp beds, stretchers and there were blankets - bedding, and if I remember correctly one of us - I'm not entirely sure, I think General Erasmus also said we were waiting - General van Rensburg sorry, that we were waiting for people from Pretoria who wished to interrogate them further.  They were actually quite relaxed, I don't know what went through their minds, I cannot know that.  And we talked to them and later on they went to sleep Mr Chairperson.  And some of us went to sleep and then one of us would keep and eye on them.  The next day we also continued to talk to them.

CHAIRPERSON: No people from Pretoria arrived?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say they still weren't alarmed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, they offered no resistance whatsoever, that I can promise you.

CHAIRPERSON: And we have been told no notes were made of any interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was purely an interview Mr Chairperson, no notes were taken.  There was no real purpose for interrogation Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they do while you went outside and collected the firewood you were going to use to burn them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, as I said General van Rensburg and I collected firewood and then Colonel du Plessis would look after them and we swapped around and collected the wood in that manner.

CHAIRPERSON: And they didn't think this was odd?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Did they talk to each other during all this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I would believe they did so Mr Chairperson, they spoke to each other because they were together all the time.

ADV SANDI: You said you spoke with them and you did not really interrogate them, did I understand you correctly?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: What did you say to them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't have independent recollection in this regard but I discussed with them activities and that is basically what our discussions concerned Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Was this not a very important opportunity for you, you had a problem, there were widespread unrest in the area, there was political instability, the security situation was very bad you said, was it not a very important moment for you to talk to these people and ask them what exactly is happening here?  Who is behind this, who are they working with?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, because this decision had already been made two days prior to or shortly before the elimination of these two persons and I did not directly question them because I had to keep in mind that there was an informer who had closely liaised with Mr Madaka.  And I had to be very careful with regard to all direct questions as far as his activities were concerned, to avoid those because at that stage I didn't see any need because we had already decided we were going to eliminate them.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore there was no need on earth to be very careful Mr Nieuwoudt was there?  It didn't matter if the man found out who the informer was now, you were going to kill him in a few hours?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So that excuse falls away, that you - the one you used about why you couldn't question him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson, but that is why we said we did not - that's why I say no, we didn't do an in-depth interrogation regarding the unrests Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: So, whatever information they may have had, you just wanted to kill that information?  If you kill them, you kill them with the information.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that was so Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you say yesterday one of your informers had told you that Mthimkhulu was planning to take a revenge on you?  Did I understand you correctly yesterday?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, there were revenge attacks on security policemen, not on me personally.