Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

MR BERGER: Well, let me try and explain it to you.   You'll see the little boxes in rows on this map, those are the houses in Boipatong.   On the left-hand side, I beg your pardon, on the right-hand side of the map, those little boxes are the houses in Slovo Park.   To the left of the map, but not on the map, is Kwamadala Hostel.   At the top of the map, that last street, Amatolo, is the last street in Boipatong before the firms, so the firms would be at the top of the map, but they're not indicated there.   At the bottom of the map is where you entered Boipatong, in the middle there, at the bottom.   Perhaps if my learned friend could point it out?    Thank you.   And then right in the centre of the map you will find the shops, and next to the shops you will see an empty space indicated as a park.   Now, are you in a position to indicate how you moved through Boipatong and where it was that you stabbed the two people that you spoke about yesterday?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do not see a thing here, somebody may have to show me.

MR BERGER: Let me try a different approach.   The house where you found that woman, or a girl, I'm not sure, trying to jump out, and you asked her where the comrades were, remember that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: You said that that house was near the shops?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Sorry, chair, if you'll just bear with me for a moment?   Chairperson, I'm in a difficult position, because I don't want to set off another, well I don't want to set off anything, and yet the victims want to know - want me to try and establish as accurately as possible who is responsible for the death of their loved ones, I'm going to be a little bit obtuse.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what must be understood is that this committee is the only one which has to make a decision whether or not the applicants are entitled to amnesty, which is dependent upon whether the committee is satisfied that they have made the full disclosure and that whatever they did was associated with political motives, those are the issues that are we concerned with, and I think one has to be, all of us understand what happened that night, we're sensitive to that, but I think our duty is the one that I've just outlined.   Yes.

MR BERGER: Yes, chair, and in the interests of full disclosure, I have to put certain things, but I'm going to try and be as obtuse as possible, without being vague.   Mr Mbatha, at a house near the shops, five people were stabbed in that house... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going through your memo?

MR BERGER: Yes, I am... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...it's on page 11 of the annexure to the memo.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry, (indistinct).

MR BERGER: It's very close to the shops, in fact it's over the road from the shops, and that's the only house in the vicinity of the shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it No 625?

MR BERGER: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Five people were stabbed in that house, two men, two males and three females, I beg your pardon, three males and two females, and one of them, a very small boy, a very young boy, three of them young children, but a little older, and one a woman.   I don't know if I've put that accurately, but... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll take it that you are referring to the names that appear... (intervention).

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...across No 625?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.   It is three males and... (intervention).

MR BERGER: Two females.

CHAIRPERSON: ...two females?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Well I can give you the ages, because otherwise it might not be accurate.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's accurate, you know, ja, it's fair enough.   Mr Mbatha, did you understand what counsel is putting to you?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I understand.

MR BERGER: And you see, what I'm suggesting to you, Mr Mbatha, is that you're downplaying what happened in that house.   You say one person was stabbed, I'm putting it to you five people were stabbed.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it's not been established that this applicant was in that house, so I think it's an unfair statement to say that he's downplaying what happened in that house, because it's not been established that the applicant was in that specific house.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a fair question.   The evidence that we've heard from Mr Mbatha is that he entered a house in the vicinity of the shops, he is not able to tell us which house, where he stabbed a woman.   Now, according to Mr Berger's instructions, as would appear from page 29 of the memorandum, at a house, No 625, which is in the vicinity of the shops, five people were stabbed, three males and two females.   So what's being put now is that that is the house where he went into, you know, and that he is under-playing his role, it's entirely up to him to say, "No, I didn't enter that house", or "I'm not under-playing", but I think that's the best way, I think, it can be, the issue can be canvassed.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, chairperson, I can just put it that I also checked the e..., well the list of all the people that died and established that another house, with the same description, although it's not so close to the shops, it's not far from the shops, and that is Sinque 194, there two males died and one female, and that will also fit in with the evidence this witness gave at a previous occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what re-examination is designed for.

MR STRYDOM: I take the point, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Sorry, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We're waiting for his comment.

MR BERGER: No, I'll just - I'll put the question again, because there's been a delay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: The house that my learned friend refers to, Mr Mbatha, is five blocks away from the shops, the house I'm referring to is over the road from the shops, and that was the only house in the vicinity of the shops where people were stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, a vicinity is a relative concept, you know, is a relative concept, I think the question that you put was a fair question, just repeat the question.

MR BERGER: So the question I'm putting to you, Mr Mbatha, is that at that house in the vicinity of the shop five people were stabbed, and one of the people who were stabbed, and this is common cause, paragraph 6.6 of our memorandum, page 8 of the actual memorandum, was a 15 year old girl, who was stabbed with an assegai in the chest and the assegai went right through her.   Now I'm putting it to you that on your description, that is the house you went into, and I'm putting it to you that there wasn't one person in that house who was stabbed, but five?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would not know really, but I thought there was only one person and the male that I referred to, maybe the houses are confusing me, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, I think what's crucial that counsel is putting to you is not so much the houses, but what happened inside the house.   Do you understand what I'm saying?   The one thing that's important, as counsel points out is not which house you went into and what number the house bears, but one important thing that he puts to you is what happened in that house.   Do you understand the difference?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you stabbed a woman and a man at a particular house, right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not say I killed the male.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that's the man who came out of, who had been concealing himself either in or outside of the Peugeot, who tried to jump the fence and you stabbed him and he ran away, as I understand it.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.