Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: That they could possibly assist me, but I cannot recall how far my period of arrest had ensued when this took place.  But many other things happened while I was under Section 29 detention, which made me realise that the organisation was going to sacrifice me.
	I didn't know who to trust any more.

MR WESSELS: You have already testified that at that stage, you thought that the organisation could assist you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I thought so.  But I did not necessarily know that they were going to assist me.  There was no assurance or guarantee.

MR WESSELS: But to distance yourself from the organisation from that point, while you were in solitary confinement after you knew that you were responsible for Dr Webster's murder, would have been reckless, if it wasn't the truth,

FERDINAND BARNARD: Why?  It would not have been reckless.  Suppose I incriminated myself and I did not distance myself from the organisation, what difference would it make?  Would they stop covering me because I did that?  They wouldn't.

MR WESSELS: To remain part of the organisation would have been the most suitable network of security that you needed at that point in time?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I beg your pardon, but it would have been sorted out on other levels, and not necessarily with the investigative team which were working with me.  I did not believe at any point that the investigative team would walk in there and say "listen, let's have a braai, everything is over, let's go".  I didn't think that those were their contacts, those persons who were involved with my interrogation and the investigation against me.
	The investigators were indeed much better investigators than those who found me guilty, and they were far more honest as well.  I don't want to evaluate everybody according to the same criteria, but Brig Floris Mostert would definitely have sent me to the gallows if it was within their capacity at that point, but there were people working against them, and the CCB also worked against them.  Generals on the general level in Pretoria in the police system, also worked against them.
	People were sent to me who penetrated into my cell at night where I was kept, and among others Col Eugene de Kock was also used as an instrument.  You can fetch him, he will testify to that here, he will support that.  Joe Verster had nothing to do with the Webster incident, but Joe Verster was very interested in affidavits and was interested in the levels upon which these statements were made.  I would get a copy of these statements from Eugene de Kock.  Joe Verster would also have copies of the statements, why was he involved if he didn't have anything to do with it?  He should have stayed away from it, shouldn't he?

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, you say that you were a member of the CCB for 18 months?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: You were not only a conscious collaborator?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is the first time that I have heard of that term, it sounds like a Jack of all trades, a potpourri that you have concocted.

MR WESSELS: Could you just repeat that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is the first time that I have heard of a conscious collaborator or co-worker.  You are rather conscious or you are not?  I was a conscious member.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, look at page 213 of Bundle A.  Page 213, it is the final page of that Bundle.  Is that your signature?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it is.

MR WESSELS: This is your amnesty application and your statement.  Please look at page 212, paragraph 2.  Please read this out to the Committee for the record.
MR BARNARD
"... My actions as referred to in Annexures A and B hereto, were performed with a political objective  and for political reasons in the supposition that it was a State objective, always in execution of my orders as  a member of the CCB and or as a conscious collaborator or co-worker of the CCB."

MR WESSELS: Yes, that is where it all comes out, Mr Barnard, those are your words?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I signed it.  Then I apologise to you sir.

MR WESSELS: No, you don't have to apologise to me, sir, why did you lie?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I didn't lie.

MR WESSELS: You testified that you had never previously heard of the phrase "a conscious co-worker or colleague, you are either a member or not", those were your words?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, and I was a member.

MR WESSELS: Then why did you lie here?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I didn't lie.  I said that I hadn't heard the phrase before, it was new to me.

MR WESSELS: Not only did you lie about not having heard it before, you made use of it yourself?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I concede, I made use of it, that is so.  It is a big problem, I see, but I do concede to it.

CHAIRPERSON: In the sentence here you say that you acted as a member of the CCB and or as a conscious co-worker or co-collaborator, why did you put that and or, why did you qualify being a member of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, it is because at a certain stage I was handled in a different way.  This was after Lafras Luitingh told me that I would be handled in a different way, and after that, it started to occur that I would be contacted by people from other places, such as Slang van Zyl, as I have already testified.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, I put it to you that it is quite simple, why you made use of those words.  You knew that you were discharged in April, at the very latest, in 1989.  You were also aware that Slang van Zyl and Calla Botha applied you in their projects and that they were not permitted to do so?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was not aware as to whether or not they had the authorisation to do so, but I was under the impression that not everything was cleared on the higher levels.

MR WESSELS: Who would be those persons?

FERDINAND BARNARD: People such as Joe Verster and Staal Burger and further up.

MR WESSELS: Naturally.  And that is why you knew that it was totally contradictory to the rules of the organisation that a person such as you, could be applied in a project?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Why a person like me, they specifically recruited people like me?  They were looking specifically for people like me.

MR WESSELS: You knew that Mr Botha and Mr van Zyl were not authorised to apply you in their projects, due to your knowledge?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I knew that.

MR WESSELS: Yes, that is why you made use of these words, to cover yourself for those incidents in which you had to indicate in terms of the law, whether or not you were a member of a State organisation, or a co-worker in a State structure.  You knew that it was unlawful to make use of those words, but you did so in order to place yourself within the parameters of the Act?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I did not, I was a member of the CCB until I was discharged.

MR WESSELS: Then I want to know why did you make use of the phrase "and or conscious co-worker"?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot tell you.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, you were  approached to join  at the end of 1988, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The CCB?

MR WESSELS: Yes?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No sir, I was approached early in 1988.

MR WESSELS: When did you join the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was discharged from prison in December 1987, the first few months of 1988, during that time, I was approached, and I think I was recruited in July 1988.

MR WESSELS: How dit it  come to be that you were recruited?