Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I did have a firearm, but with regard to the garments and the description thereof, I totally disagree with you.  I was not going to wear anything light which was going to make me easily identifiable.  I was wearing very dark clothes.
	Everything that I was wearing, was black because that made me feel safer and I wasn't going to be easily identified.  That is why I had dark clothes.

MR HATTINGH: Was either you or Mr Gushu known by the name Mzala?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I know nothing of that sort.

MR HATTINGH: Had either you or Mr Gushu been employed by Mr John Mndebele at any stage?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Never.

MR HATTINGH: When the shooting started, the witness will tell this Committee that she ran across an open piece or an open stretch of ground and that Lindiwe who got killed, carried on running straight down the street in the direction of the Disco.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I think I can put that in this way.  I do not know as to whether this Lindiwe who died, ran towards the disco because where this whole thing happened, was right at the disco, at the corner.
	The person who ran away from the scene, took a different direction, a bit downwards and the other one, I did not see the second one who ran.

MR HATTINGH: Could you explain if Chris Ngwenya and the two ladies that you were to their side at the time when you started to shoot at them, how would you then explain the fact that both Lindiwe Nkosi who got killed and Thembisile Nkambule who was wounded, were both shot from behind?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: At the time that we started shooting, Chris did not fall immediately.
	When we continued shooting, he continued running.  I think probably that is the time that they got shot because the three of them started running and Chris was amongst them running with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Which direction did they run?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Chris was heading a bit downwards, but he was not able to run for a long while or a long distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it doesn't help me to know what is upwards and downwards.  Did he run away from you or towards you or sideways?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He was running sideways.

MR HATTINGH: I further wish to put it to you that evidence will be led that one of the perpetrators, either you or Mr Gushu, followed one of the ladies and carried on shooting at her even though Chris Ngwenya was not anywhere near to where this lady was at the time.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I had already explained that there is another one who got shot when Chris was running together with the women, but at the time that Chris had fallen down, we did not continue shooting.
	I totally deny that statement.  If that was so that person would not have been able to survive, if she was the intended victim, because the gun or the bullet has got much more speed than a human being, so she could not have outrun the bullet if we intended to shoot her.

MR HATTINGH: In particular I would like to put it to you that Thembisile Nkambule was the one who entered a shop, running away from the attackers and that the attackers were in fact following her and only stopped two metres away from the shop after she had entered the shop.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I will explain this to the Committee so that it is very clear.
	I think Thembisile knows deep down within her heart, that we never followed her, because we had already carried out the orders.  When we were running after her, it was because we were effecting a get away, she was running away from the scene, we were also running away so that we could not get caught, not that we were running after her.
	If we were running after her, if we were behind her, we could have been able to kill her if we wanted to.

ADV SANDI: Were you running towards the same direction as her?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I could say that when the people heard the shots, they started to appear from their houses and the shops and we sort of mingled with the people, so as to destroy the spoor, so that they could not follow us and they could not identify us as the killers.
	We mingled with the people  towards the same direction.

ADV SANDI: It is not very clear to me.  Do you mean to say that you were going in different directions, that is on the one hand yourself and Mr Gushu and Nkambule?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Gushu and myself were running towards the same direction and the others were in front of us, and some got scattered into different directions.

MR HATTINGH: In fact the witnesses will say that you followed Thembisile Nkambule to the shop and when she entered the shop, you stopped approximately ten metres away from the shop and then turned around, but prior to that, you in fact shot at her.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, this very same question was Mr Hattingh's last question, except for the fact that it now no longer is two metres, but ten metres.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I never said two metres, I said ten metres.

CHAIRPERSON: You intended to say ten, you did say two.

MR HATTINGH: I accept that, but the question is that you were not just running away from the scene and in the same direction as Thembisile Nkambule, you were following her, stopped ten metres away from the shop and then turned around when Thembisile had reached the safety of the shop.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is not true at all.  The truth of the matter is that I am the doer, I committed the deed and I've got nothing to loose.  What I want to tell the Committee is the truth and it happened as I had described it.
	I would not have time to come and sit here and come and tell a bunch of lies.  I think if you were in my position, you would realise the fact that I had just done this deed and I had to effect a get away.  I as not going to wait to get caught so we ran towards the same direction and that is the direction of the shops.
	Maybe she took it that we were following her, but that was not the case.

MR HATTINGH: Just to clarify the issue, when you say you ran in the direction of the shops, would that be the same direction as the disco or would that be the opposite direction?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: We were running towards the direction of the shops and what I know is that we were running sideways towards the left, that is from the shopping centre where we committed our mission or where we carried out our mission.

MR HATTINGH: The question was at the time when you were running in the direction of the shops, would that be the opposite direction to the disco or would it be the same direction?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, first of all do you know where the disco is?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you run towards the disco, in the disco's direction or in the opposite direction to the disco?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: From the disco towards another direction.

MR HATTINGH: I then put it to you that after having stopped at the shops, approximately ten metres away from the shops, you turned around and then ran in the direction of the disco.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I beg to differ because it is not so.

MR HATTINGH: I don't know whether I have already covered this particular issue, but if I did just tell me, were you aware of the fact that there were other problems between Chris Ngwenya and Mr John Mndebele leading to Mr Mndebele laying a charge with the Police on the Saturday, the day before the killing of Chris Ngwenya?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: No, I didn't know that.

MR HATTINGH: Then lastly I would like to put it to you that from my instructions it would appear that you intentionally shot at the two ladies with the intention of killing them, and that it was not only by mistake that you hit them while aiming for Mr Chris Ngwenya?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is not correct.