Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand this.  You said that the bombs were targeted at black people.  There were talk of the protection of white people.
	The bombs must not explode there where white people will be and I accept as far as possible.

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You said if I understand your evidence, that the rational behind this over the years was that it was the belief that the black people were the enemy?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that they were always the enemy.  In this country we know that the colour of a person's skin is the only way, or were the only way to distinguish people from black or white?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is the only way in which you can distinguish white or black people, that is the colour of their skin.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not racism?

MR SMIT: No, not in my eyes.  No.

CHAIRPERSON: What is racism then?

MR SMIT: Any person is a racist.  The definition of that is a person who loves his nation or volk.

CHAIRPERSON: A person who loves his nation or his volk, then he is a racist?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In South Africa in the way in which I understand your evidence, it was the chosen country of the white people?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of that, the black people were the enemy?

MR SMIT: At that stage, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correct that under the chosen people, there were not one black person?

MR SMIT: Which chosen people?

CHAIRPERSON: Those who were chosen to govern this country?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis was this decided?

MR SMIT: It is about the Volkstaat.  In parts of the Volkstaat, it would be as in the old dispensation in that black people had to leave the country and go back home, let's say at ten o'clock at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not true that according to the belief that God gave this country for the chosen people?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And under those or amongst those chosen people, there were not black people?

MR SMIT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue please.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just ask this, from this viewpoint was the Bophuthatswana attack which was known as a black State, how is this reconcilable with the AWB's policy?

MR SMIT: It was targeted at international fame and national fame, firstly for Mr Terreblanche and then for the AWB.

ADV BOSMAN: How do you mean targeted for, are you saying that he wanted to make his name known in the attack on Bophuthatswana?

MR SMIT: That is correct.  There was another motive and that is to begin this warfare.  Later, we would also have attacked Bophuthatswana, who would we at that stage protected and made this part of the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: And when this happened, the AWB lost, is that not true?

MR SMIT: Where did they lose?

CHAIRPERSON: In Bophuthatswana.

MR SMIT: No, not according to me.

UNKNOWN: Could I just get clarity on one point.  When we watched that video, the snippets we watched, I didn't hear Mr Terreblanche say that black people are your enemy, they have always been your enemy.  The impression I got and the way it was translated was that it is not a racial issue.  Where then do you get the idea that this war, this operation, was about the AWB attacking black people because black people have always been the enemy?

MR SMIT: Through the years black people always as in the Heidelberg, or the black people always killed the white children and people, and in that case it was the same.

UNKNOWN: If you were executing an operation that you thought was authorised by your leaders, you seem to be going beyond what your leaders had been saying to you just a few weeks ago about black, white and what the issue really was?
	This is really where my problem is.  Your leaders weren't saying black people were the enemy, therefore we attack them?

MR SMIT: They didn't say it at all.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but this is what you are saying the rationale was, at this meeting that you held at the game farm and your whole operation was based on this issue of black people are the enemy, therefore we headed for black taxi ranks and never mind that a certain area is a white ANC area, that would not be an issue for you at all, even though you might have known that a particular area is white and strongly ANC?

MR SMIT: As I would have given evidence furthermore, the whole West Rand, Jo'burg of which Johannesburg is the largest liberal area.  That was the target area.
	So if we started at black taxi ranks, there were the largest support base of the ANC was, that was the target area.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that the discussion was furthermore about explosions or bombings that would take place?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What bombings were discussed on this particular evening, that is now when you were with Leon van der Merwe, Nico Prinsloo and Du Plessis and Abie Fourie?

MR SMIT: I am not quite sure which explosions were discussed.

MS VAN DER WALT: In the meeting, was there any discussion with regard to pipe-bombs?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct as well as a trailer bomb of which the trailer was the property of Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: Regarding the pipe-bombs, what was discussed?

MR SMIT: We discussed that we would build these bombs in Koesterfontein.  These bombs had to be used in these bomb attacks and we had to use the equipment we had.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were any instructions then executed after this discussion with regards to the pipe-bombs?

MR SMIT: Yes, people were called together.  In groups of two, two or three, three instructions were given to plant these bombs at different places.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say people were brought together, of which people are you talking about?

MR SMIT: That would be the people that were gathered at this game farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, the people who were there were then aware of the fact that pipe-bombs would be thrown?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know where all these pipe-bombs were going?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave the instructions that pipe-bombs had to be thrown?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now Nico Prinsloo, his rank was that of a General?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When he gave you these instructions, how did you see that?  Did he personally give the instruction, where did this instruction come from?

MR SMIT: He conveyed this instruction personally, but the instruction that he gave to us was coordinated with his driving to Ventersdorp Headquarters where the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche were and where they discussed it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he at any stage tell you that it came from the Generals in Staff?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that you are not quite sure where all these pipe-bombs went?

MR SMIT: No, I am not.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did missions go out then to different areas?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You say that there was also discussions with regards to a trailer bomb?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that at the same time or was this discussed at the same time when you were discussing the pipe-bombs?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was discussed?

MR SMIT: Mr Cliff Barnard said I am going to use this trailer of Mr Eugene Terreblanche to build this bomb.  Mr Nico Prinsloo then answered and his words were that he will have to tell the "Oubaas" that his trailer will be used.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that these bombs could kill people?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with this?

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: From the start?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You now mentioned Cliff Barnard who spoke there, but you initially testified and you did not mention that he was present.  What is the situation there?

MR SMIT: I just forgot about that.