Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-05

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you go from here Mr Oosthuizen?  Do you propose to call any other witness in support of Mr Ngxongo's application?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Madame Chair if I can just get instructions from my client?  At this stage I'm not aware of any other witnesses, if I can just confirm with him?

CHAIRPERSON: May you do so.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Sorry, during that recess Chairperson, there was one aspect of the evidence that came up as a direct result of your question and answer which I have instructions on and I would like to clear up.  It's just a very small issue.  I don't know what the procedures are but there was an implication in the applicant's evidence which had adverse consequences to my client and in that sense it will stand unchallenged unless I put my client's version to him and I would request that permission.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the nature of these proceedings Mr Wills we'll afford you that opportunity but will request that in future if you have your time to put questions to a witness you exhaust that to the best of your abilities so that you know this does not play havoc with our record and also with our comprehension of the evidence.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Chairperson, I fully understand that it has only arisen as a result of the cross-question that you put to the witness, I wasn't able to know what that answer was beforehand.
	So did I understand you correctly in answer to one of the Chairperson's questions that you said that Mr Mbambo advised you not to reveal the details of the incident to the authorities?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now my instructions are that this had nothing to do with the filling of your application form, that this did in fact occur, it occurred when you were first arrested for this matter in early 1994, is that correct and it was in relation to the police authorities who were investigating this particular crime?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And further that my client at no stage interfered with your filling in of your application form for amnesty?

MONDLI NGXONGO: No he didn't.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Oosthuizen have you had an occasion to take quick instructions from Mr Ngxongo as to whether he would like to call further witnesses in support of his application?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Madame Chair I've had an opportunity and it is my instructions that the applicant wishes not to call any further witnesses and that's his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, during the course of these proceedings the name of Mrs Umbuasi, Mr Mtetwa were mentioned as well as the name of Nicky Brits and Captain Hlongwane.  Has Mrs Umbuasi whose name appears in the application form of Mr Ngxongo been given notice in terms of Section 19.4?

MS THABETE: Yes Madame Chair, Mrs Umbuasi was given a Section 19.4 notice, I've got a copy here with me, it was faxed to I think Mr Falcon ...[indistinct].  I've made not of Mrs Umbuasi, again Nicky Brits, Mr Hlongwane, Mr Mtetwa to give them a Section 30 notice.  I actually spoke to Mr Lala this morning about the fact that they've been mentioned vive voce evidence so he assured me that he will prepare a Section 30 notice as soon as he has the record of the transcript.

CHAIRPERSON: Together with that portion of the evidence that implicates them?

MS THABETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the full record?

MS THABETE: Yes we will wait for the transcript then we will do so accordingly.

CHAIRPERSON: We really appreciate it.

MR WILLS: Madame Chair, sorry if I can just assist?  My advices are that Captain Hlengwa has recently deceased six weeks ago.

CHAIRPERSON: We have to confirm that, thanks Mr Wills for bringing that to our attention.  Ms Thabete, we'll have to get confirmation thereof so that we know for a fact that it is indeed so.

MS THABETE: I'll do so Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills and Ms Thabete, we have a situation wherein certain persons have become implicated during vive voce evidence of Mr Ngxongo.  Ms Thabete has only been able to service Section 19.4 notice on Mrs Umbuasi because she was so implicated on the papers before us.  We now have to afford the persons so implicated and opportunity to respond if they so wish to the extent of their implication.  In the light of that do you think there will be any merit in proceeding to hear your legal argument when the implicated persons have not been given that opportunity?

MR WILLS: Madame Chair, Members of the Committee, I'm of the view that it would be necessary for the implicated parties to be given an opportunity to deal with the aspects where they've been implicated prior to argument and prior to any decision being taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have a different view?

MS THABETE: Maybe I have a question Madame Chair.  In terms of the proceedings one has to argue once, that's all or is it possible that we can have argument now and then when and if the implicated people respond then there's argument later on that particular aspect.  I don't know, I don't know how the proceedings go.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't have any firm view.  You would prefer to - I think usually you can only argue once you have listened to all the evidence and your argument can only be based on the full evidence because it must be a full argument, you can't have a partial argument.  Mr Oosthuizen, I think you really have to have a view particularly because it would impinge on the success or failure of your applicants of your client's application.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Madame Chair, Members of the Committee, indeed so I must agree with my learned colleague Mr Wills.  My client will be severely prejudiced and if this implicated person, being Mrs Umbuasi, is not given a 19.4 notice to come and testify as she is severely implicated, I don't think there's any purpose if like Madame Chair is saying that we should only partly address the Committee at this stage.  I think one should first get all the evidence and then only after that has been heard one can meaningfully address the Committee on the specific application.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the view that is shed by the members of this panel that we would prefer to afford the persons who have since been implicate during vive voce evidence an opportunity to respond if they so wished and that they can respond in writing and that Ms Thabete, will you please put them on terms, give an indication when you would expect their written responses to that portion of evidence to which they've been implicated and that it should not be longer than a month.  To go back to what has been alluded to by Mr Oosthuizen, Mr Oosthuizen, Mrs Umbuasi was served with the Section 19.4 notice, she has elected not to attend these proceedings.  It is her right to do so.  We therefore are not so much concerned with Mrs Umbuasi as we are concerned with Captain Hlengwe, Mr Nicky Brits ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: Mr Mtetwa, Mr Dingile, Mr William Mkwena and Mr David Mkwena and Brigadier Mati.

CHAIRPERSON: These are persons who are implicated during these proceedings and we therefore have to give them the Section 30 notices.

MS THABETE: I don't know whether the applicant does or maybe I can ask afterwards regarding their addresses or their whereabouts.  I don't know if anyone can assist me?