Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

DR KLATZOW: Now what I'm getting to is this, that Armscor saw to it that whatever it's goals were, were achieved by means, whatever means at it's disposal and if that meant purloining international intellectual property they didn't scruple to do that.  You're not going to deny that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I've indicated that Armscor was fulfilling a task at the time.  It may well be that that was included but that is beyond my knowledge.

DR KLATZOW: Okay.  Now, I want to put to you the following.  That the military at the time in Angola were having a problem with new fighter jets and they were having a problem with the surface to air or air to air missiles and I want to put to you that it became extremely important for Armscor to develop a means for countering this threat and further I want to put to you that at the time the only way that was able to do that was by means of developing a better missile and that there was an urgent need to do that.  Do you have any knowledge of that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow you're operating in an area which I have no personal knowledge.  I can assume that your statement is correct but that would not be from personal knowledge.

DR KLATZOW: Okay, but what I'm trying to indicate to you is that having been faced with a problem of that magnitude, can you think of any reason whatsoever having already indicated that Armscor was prepared to break the niceties of International Law why they would not try and get a better rocket propellant brought into the country to reverse engineer?  Can you think of a single reason why that would be an outlandish suggestion?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow that would fall into the category of one of a variety of different solutions that Armscor could have been investigating at the time.  The case is hypothetical.

DR KLATZOW: I accept that it's hypothetical but the question was quite a specific question.  Given the fact that there was a problem with aircraft in Angola.  Given the fact that there was an urgent need to develop a better form of rocketry.  Given those facts, can you think of a reason why Armscor would not have brought in the material that they needed to reverse engineer to deal with this extremely urgent problem?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow you have indicated that there was an extremely urgent problem.  I have no knowledge of that.  You have indicated a scenario that indicates that Armscor would have wished to develop such a project or such a projectile and such a counter measure.  I have no knowledge of that.

DR KLATZOW: I understand.  You're missing the question Mr Hare.

JOHN DAVID HARE: We're in the area where this kind of hypothetical speculation, I could certainly not deny and say that it's possible that Armscor would wish to have brought in a product A, B, C, D or E.  That may well be.

DR KLATZOW: The question was very simple and we're getting side-tracked.  The question was, if my premises are correct, if the suppositions that I've put to you are correct, can you think of a reason why Armscor would not have broken international sanctions by whatever method getting the material they needed and bringing it in aboard a civilian airliner.  And I think the answer is no.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Well you've now added a new dimension into the transaction, you've said aboard a civilian airliner.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.

JOHN DAVID HARE: And right up to now, you and I have probably not differed on the subject of what Armscor was busy doing and the ways that they would have used.  I am certainly not aware of the situation whereby Armscor would have taken steps on an irresponsible basis to conduct importation of materials on any basis that was not particularly safe or that would have placed any particular, either aircraft or passenger aboard an aircraft at risk.

DR KLATZOW: Well we'll get to that.  Let me, I presume that the answer to the first part, without the civilian airliner is that they would have brought that in by whatever means they needed to get it here?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I think that you could qualify that by saying, by adding the rider that I have added.

DR KLATZOW: Okay.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I think that Armscor operated with integrity.  Armscor in my opinion would not have undertaken such a risk.  I would certainly not have been party to doing so had I known that that was going to happen.

DR KLATZOW: I understand that.  Now you also as a chief executive of SAA are aware that I have personally phoned you in relation to this matter on a number of occasions some four years ago?

JOHN DAVID HARE: May I correct you, I'm the deputy chief of SAA.  I'm not the chief executive.  Promotion would be very nice but it certainly is not contemplated.

DR KLATZOW: Well if it were in my power I would try and help you but you are a senior man at SAA?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Certainly.

DR KLATZOW: And you are aware that I questioned you some years ago about an incident which occurred at Ben Gurion Airport?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: And you referred me to a pilot by the  name of Captain Flippie Look?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: Now at the time you also referred me to one of your senior technical people, a man by the  name of Theuns Steyn, Theuns Kruger?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Theuns Kruger I believe.

DR KLATZOW: Correct, Dr Theuns Kruger.  And your suggestion to me at the time was that SAA had been transporting mirage drop tanks and that the whole incident involved mirage drop tanks?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow you were referring to an incident of which I had no knowledge.

DR KLATZOW: I accept that.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I referred you to the people who in my opinion could have assisted you in providing information regarding that concern.

DR KLATZOW: And they were very helpful.

JOHN DAVID HARE: And I understand that they were helpful.

DR KLATZOW: They were very helpful.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I hope that that's the case.

DR KLATZOW: Now Captain Look, you know has an airforce background?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I know.

DR KLATZOW: You know that he flew mirages?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I understand that.

DR KLATZOW: And you know that he has vast experience as a pilot?  When I put to Captain Look that he was mistaken and that the items that fell out of his hold were mirage drop tanks.  He was infuriated.  And I'm telling you this for your own interest, he was quite infuriated.  Infuriated to the point where he quite unwillingly indicated to me that he was a man who would clearly know the difference between a mirage drop tank and a rocket which had fallen out.

JOHN DAVID HARE: That may be.

DR KLATZOW: Now those have been loaded aboard SAA aircraft.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm not aware of the circumstances but that may be.

DR KLATZOW: Well it's not so much the circumstances, it's the fact that numerous people at SAA have attempted to try and convince me that the items which fell out of the aircraft were mirage drop tanks.  And it is that which I want to deal with.  Because surely Mr Hare, the simple thing that if you were transporting something in a responsible fashion aboard a civilian airliner which bore or posed no risk to the passengers, you could easily as an airline and Dr Kruger could easily have said to me, we were carrying empty rocket casings, it is a simple matter, they posed no risk and we were quite entitled in terms of IATA Regulations to carry them.  Why didn't he do that?  Why did he resort to trying to convince me that they were mirage wing tanks?

JOHN DAVID HARE: You would have to ask him the question, I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: But there isn't a simple answer to that, you will agree with me?