Special Hearings — Legal Hearings — 1997-10-27

PANEL: I mean can you explain that to me. On what basis would the review board be in a position to order the release at a certain date?

MR DU BRUIN: Well the only explanation I can give is that the board was satisfied that the detention was quite justified. But they insisted that the detention should be shortened and they recommended to the minister of law and order that the person should be released by a certain time. Otherwise they would review that case again and then recommend the release immediately. That's the only explanation I can give.

MR VALLY: Thank you. You've got statistics for the period '82 to March '87 where - I'm looking at page 45. A total of 1604 persons were detained in terms of section 29. Do you have any figures for period from '87 onwards?

MR DU BRUIN: Madam Chair what happened here is in March '87 the administration of the security legislation was assigned to the minister of justice with the exception of section 29. And I think a couple of other sections. The police they kept administering section 29. That's why justice department has got no figures in respect of that period.

MR VALLY: Okay. And prior to 1982.

MR DU BRUIN: Well we have all the statistics of prior to that date.

MR VALLY: In terms of section (...indistinct) detentions as well?

MR DU BRUIN: Ja. (...indistinct)

MR VALLY: Are they in this report anywhere?

MR DU BRUIN: Pardon?

MR VALLY: Are they in this report anywhere?

MR DU BRUIN: Ja.

MR VALLY: Sorry if you can just direct us to the page? Well maybe we can carry on while someone else in your team looks for that page. I also want to talk about people who were detained as state witnesses. From the period 1982 to 1989 on page 47 you tell us the 389 persons were detained. I'm looking at page 47E. Do you have any other figures?

MR DU BRUIN: No that's the only figures we've got. I think that since '89 there could have been a detention or two but I think that the practice was stopped that they detained people for, as witnesses.

MR VALLY: And prior to '82?

MR DU BRUIN: Ja prior to '82 there were a couple of but. If you look at page 32 from '76 to '82 493 notices were issued in terms of section 12B. That's the provision in the 44 1950 act.

MR VALLY: Sorry you said page?

MR DU BRUIN: 32.

MR VALLY: Sorry. Okay so 341 notices and then you had another 300 whatever odd. So at least between '76 and '80. Alright we'll have to work out the figures ourselves. It's just that the impression given to us by the attorney generals was it was minimally used and there's at least 300 odd in both periods you're talking about. Let's just go on.
 Let's go to page 59 where you talk about involvement of the state security council. The department of justice's involvement with the state security council. Did the department of justice, specifically the director general and the minister sit in on all meetings with the state security council? Did the department of justice that is represented by the minister, the director general?

MR NEIDT: Chairperson I'll answer that since I was appointed on 1st February 1989, yes I did, as far as know I did sit in on all.

MR VALLY: And before that your predecessor?

MR NEIDT: I presume he was also sitting in on all those because it was prescribed by the act. And I presume he was also present at all these meetings. I just want to point out that the as far as I can recollect and the discussions I had with him. There was a period when the state security council wasn't as active until I think state president Botha was appointed. Then it met regularly. But before that it didn't meet on a regular basis. It only met from time to time. But I'm quite convinced that both of them, both my predecessors sit in on the state security council.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record just give us the names of your two predecessors please?

MR NEIDT: Yes. Mr S.S. van der Merwe, Fanie van der Merwe and prior to him Mr J.P.J. Coetser.

PANEL: And sorry if I can just come in there with a question? Advocate Neidt did you report as D.G. justice report to the security council?

MR NEIDT: No. Chairperson what happened at the state security council there was also a secretary, they call it the secretariat of the state security council. And they normally came there and they gave an exposition of the security situation in the country. And as a result of that there were discussions between the various ministers and then certain resolutions were taken as to steps that were taken as far as the security threat was concerned. There were also other matters they discussed but I can remember these and if there were instructions for example to say to go about an implement a - what do you call it? A state of emergency. Then the department of justice was asked to ask the police for the information, I think well in the time when I was there (...indistinct) national intelligence they had to submit full reports to the department of justice. We evaluated those in terms of the act. Sometimes we went back to the police and we said to them the information was not sufficient and then we made a recommendation to the minister and the minister then took it to cabinet.

PANEL: Now and then would you as representative on the state security council take back state security council decisions back to your department and will it filter down from there through you?

MR NEIDT: Well it all depends whether it was a decision which affected my department. The matters which affected my department were mostly matters concerning state of emergency which I can remember. The other matters were dealt with by the police and the security branch.

PANEL: Yes I mean matters affecting you. For example we heard evidence yesterday that for example prosecutors were shown videos showing the gruesome acts of terror by allegedly carried out by members of the liberation movements and this was a result of a directive from the state security council through justice to the (...indistinct)

MR NEIDT: Chairperson I just have to say here if that happened it was prior to my time. Definitely not in my time. I listened to a submission here this morning or earlier when somebody said there were certain directions given to prosecutors you'll find that fully dealt with in the Hoekstra report. What actually happened, I think it was contained in a code, we've got certain codes. And in that particular code I think it was prescript...
 Of course there was quite an uproar about this and that particular code was immediately withdrawn. Now the Hoekstra commission was appointed in 1979. I was the chief researcher of that particular commission and it lasted till 1984. And it was during that period, I can't give you the exact date but I'll look it up, that particular code was done away with or was abolished. That I can remember but in my time there was never, never any submission. Perhaps Mr du Bruin can help here.

MR DU BRUIN: Madam Chair what happened there was in existence what they called the security management system country-wide. And that was an initiative by the S.A. police and the S.A. defence force. But magistrates and prosecutors were prohibited from getting involved in these systems. But in Durban at one time the police they organised some sort of film show for the prosecutors and when that came to the notice of the then director general the practice was stopped immediately.