Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: Did he also prepare some of this document? That is the introduction and the final remarks about the paperbeing sworn?  Did he prepare some of the papers?

B J MPONDO: I am not sure about that.   Yes, it is true.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: s s

UNKNOWN: Tsediso, I am going to ask you questions inSosotho and I want you to relax, be free.  But before I startto put my questions I want to understand exactly.  Do you knowwhy are you here?  Do you know why we are also here, do you understandthat?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am listening to you.

UNKNOWN: I want you to raise your voice so that thepeople here can hear you.  I am far from you, I cannot hear you. I want to hear exactly what you are going to say.  I requestyou to raise your voice so that I can hear you.  Are you awarethat you are not going to be tried here?  You are not the accused.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am aware.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware that you need to speak the truthabout what happened on that particular day?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am aware.

UNKNOWN: That is the day when the deceased was killed.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you know that to be successful with theapplication you have to show it with your evidence that you aregoing to give.  That when you did this you were doing it for politicalreasons.  I want you to speak audibly because everything is beingtaped.  If you nod your head that will not appear on the tape.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I am listening, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now, do you understand again that the truthwe have to get here is the truth in its fullest?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am aware.

UNKNOWN: Before I get to my questions about this incidentwhen the deceased was killed, let me ask this. This person youkilled, what is his name?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Bothetsa Sekotome.

UNKNOWN: Can you please tell us how you knew him?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: He was a policeman, a municipal policemanhere in Maokeng.  Being a policeman I must say I knew him becausewe all stayed in Pumulung.

UNKNOWN: You knew him just as an ordinary policeman.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, he was a policeman.

UNKNOWN: Did you know him just as a policeman, notin different ways?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: He was a person who took a lot of partbeing against the members of the SDU.

UNKNOWN: We've listened to many facts about the situationthat was prevailing here in Maokeng when there was a lot of harassment. We have heard about the killings that took place, or let me sayabout this 3 million gang as well as many other killings thatwere caused by the members of the African National Congress YouthLeague.  With this matter, the 3 million, how do you perceivethese members?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: They were the criminals terrorisingthe community as well as the members of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: According to you knowledge, is there anythingthat you witnessed that is so wicked in eyes, some of the activitiesthat they were doing to the community?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Explain then.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It was on the 12th to the 15th December,that was the day when Comrade Mbelwane(?) was killed.   That isComrade Mduwisile Mbelwane.  We were at the shops.  We saw busescoming, buses as well as kombis.  We were at the shops at Pumulung. They were together with the members of AZAPO.  The police werealso there with these big vans, we used to call it 710.

UNKNOWN: Where were they?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: The 710 approached from the post officedirection and the kombi was from the tarred road and the bus fromthe 16 Area.

UNKNOWN: And what happened then?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: The kombi stopped there and the membersof the 3 million alighted.  We were in a group as members of theSDU.  When they alighted, they came straight to us and that iswhen the 710 approached and the 3 million members, some of themapproached and when we saw them we run to the different directions. Just passing by Mr Qweqwe's house the bus approached us and veryclose to Kanelelo School(?) they alighted.  Now they were comingour direction and then we ran towards (inaudible).

UNKNOWN: What were you running from?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: We were running from the 3 millionbecause we knew them as dangerous people.  We knew that they weregoing to kill us.

UNKNOWN: Did they say they were coming to kill you? Didn't you know that they were coming for peace maybe?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, the way they came you could seethat there was just blood stinking, there was no peace at all.

UNKNOWN: What were they having in their hands thatmade you conclude that they were not peaceful?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: They had pangas and knives.

UNKNOWN: Could you see those weapons?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, they didn't hide them.  Theywere publicly carried.

UNKNOWN: Could the police see them?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, the police were there becausethe 710 that I've just referred to was a police van.

UNKNOWN: The question is, could the police see them?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, they could see those weaponsof theirs.

UNKNOWN: Did the police take any initiative to stopthis that the members were doing?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, nothing.  That is where ComradeMbuyisile died.

UNKNOWN: I have finished with that.  That was the past. Now at the time of this you were a member of a certain politicalorganisation.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I was a member of the ANC YouthLeague.

UNKNOWN: When did you join this League?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: In 1990, February.

UNKNOWN: During that time were you schooling?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.  I was at Tabong.

UNKNOWN: Where is Tabong?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It is in Welkom.

UNKNOWN: Now when you were schooling in Tabong, whatdid you want here in Kroonstad?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: This is my hometown.  During the holidaysI would be here around.

UNKNOWN: Your home is here.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, but I was schooling in Tabong.

UNKNOWN: Please don't be surprised if I ask you whereTabong is.  It is because the members of the Committee not knowwhere Tabong is.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It is in Welkom.

UNKNOWN: So that all of us understand what we are talkingabout here.  Being a member of the Youth League of the ANC, whowas the leader of the Youth League in Kroonstad?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It was Comrade Matshabethule.  Heused to lead us together with George Daniels, Gashliso, Moaketsi,they were members of the Youth League.

UNKNOWN: Were you present when the SDUs were formed?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I arrived about two weeks thatthey had been formed.

UNKNOWN: Did you join these SDUs?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now being a member of this, before this incidenttook place, have you been sought by the police before?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No.

UNKNOWN: The police looking for you where you were?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I can't remember that.

UNKNOWN: The question is actually whether he was beingsought, looked for by the police, sought after.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Who was being sought by the police,myself or ....

UNKNOWN: There is evidence, because the police havebeen looking for certain people, members of the SDUs, for differentcases like public violence.  I am asking this to get clarity asto whether have you been sought by the police or not?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, no police were looking after me.

UNKNOWN: Now this incident that happened, happenedon the 25th December.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And that is a very respected day, ChristmasDay.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I want you to tell the Committee that on thisspecific day, where were you and what happened?  How did you killthis person, what happened that you killed him?  Remember thatyou have to convince us with your evidence that the incident ispolitically motivated.  You can now start.