Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer the question really, were you told by Mr Lubbe to mention Mr Madasi's name or did you do it because of what you had been told earlier by somebody else?

BENNET SIBAYA: I don't know those people, they only brought me that type of information because they wanted to involve Mr Ntsebeza in the Heidelberg incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya, this is got nothing to do with Mr Ntsebeza, it's got to do with Mr Madasi and the use of his name by you, did you use his name out of your own or did someone tell you or instruct you to use his name?

BENNET SIBAYA: They gave me his name because they wanted to reconcile the two incidents -  I don't even know Mr Madasi, I don't even know that he was wearing a cap.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, who gave you Mr Madasi's name or who told you to use his name?

BENNET SIBAYA: In my second statement Mr Lubbe came up with this name, Mr Lubbe came up with this name because he wanted it also to be included in that statement and that Mr Madasi was working with Mr Ntsebeza because his cap was found in the car.  I don't even know who is Mr Madasi but I only knew Mr Ntsebeza because he was in that photo but I was told that I must emphasis that Mr Madasi's cap was found in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway the answer is that Mr Lubbe told him Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did Mr Lubbe tell you to use his name Mr Sibaya?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, he also wanted to - he did so because he wanted to involve Mr Ntsebeza in that incident because of the cap that was found in the car.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, you made a statement to Mr Lubbe on the 12th of August 1997, if Mr Lubbe wanted you to use or to link Mr Ntsebeza with Mr Madasi, why didn't he tell you to say so in your written statement? - there's no mention of Mr Madasi's name in your second written statement.

BENNET SIBAYA: I can't get your question clearly.  In my first statement I didn't mention anything about Mr Madasi and Mr Ntsebeza, in my second statement it's where I included Mr Madasi's name because it is said that Mr Madasi's cap was found in the car -  I don't know which one is Mr Madasi.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya, Mr Madasi's name is not mentioned in your second statement, it's exactly the point I'm trying to make.  The easiest thing for Mr Lubbe to do was to include his name in the written statement which he got you to sign - his name is not in there, you mentioned Mr Madasi out of your own when you gave evidence here.

BENNET SIBAYA: They instructed me to do so afterwards.

JUDGE WILSON: Who instructed you to do so Mr Sibaya?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was Mr Lubbe and the other one - the one with the moustache, he's also one of the policeman - I'm not sure of his name but he's working with him, he's the one who always brings me to this place.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know that person's name?

BENNET SIBAYA: He's the one who used to escort me to this place because Mr Lubbe was not there, I think it's Benado - Banado or Benado.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So Mr Sibaya, can we accept that between the period that you made your last statement on the 12th of August and when you gave evidence before this Committee in October - when was it, 28/29 October, that you were also briefed by Mr Lubbe and/or Mr Benado as to what to say before this Committee?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, they advised me on what to say in front of the Commission, they were advising me on what to say in front of the Commission.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was it just before you gave evidence before this Commission or was it also while you were giving evidence before the Committee?

BENNET SIBAYA: The very first day they told me what to say and every morning they would brief me and tell me what to say and advise me on what to say in front of the Commission.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibaya, when you appeared before the Goldstone Commission, did you tell Judge Goldstone that Mr Lubbe and this other gentleman - who's name you're not sure of, did you tell him that Mr Lubbe and that gentleman had told you what to say to this Committee?

BENNET SIBAYA: I tried to explain that because - I tried to explain the fact that Mr Lubbe's actions were almost the same as Mr Segal because - that's why I was afraid because I was not sure if Mr
Lubbe wasn't working with Mr Segal.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, there's just two.
	Mr Sibaya, in your statement - your last statement to Mr Lucky Najuzela, you said that the reason for telling this Committee so many untruths was because you had wanted to speak to Archbishop Tutu but you didn't see him here today - on that day, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, I was afraid Sir, I had no - I was not trusting anybody.

MR PRIOR: Was there any reason why you did not ask this Committee to call or have Archbishop Tutu called to speak to you for you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether there's any value in an answer to that question Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: As the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: About his value, about ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Well, did he not think to ask for Archbishop to be called?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the fact of the matter is, he came with a
version and he gave that version.

MR PRIOR: All right.
	And lastly, do you agree that before you gave your evidence, you were informed by Mr Benado that Mr Segal had passed away during May of last year and that - if there was anything that you had feared from his side, that fear was no longer present?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Benado told me afterwards that Mr Segal passed away, he told me on the very last day of the hearing.

MR PRIOR: And not before you gave your evidence?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, he told me after the hearing because I said to him: "We mustn't take a straight road because I can be in trouble, I'm afraid of Mr Segal but he said to me: "No, Mr Segal passed away".

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Andrew?

JUDGE WILSON: Now, in this statement you made on the 3rd of November, were you now telling the truth?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, that's the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: Is the truth that you were caught poaching crayfish on the night of the 4th of January or the morning of the 4th of January?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, Sir, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mr Segal was called in to investigate a case of poaching crayfish?

BENNET SIBAYA: The inspector said they are calling us because there was a buyer coming to buy our crayfish, he came to fetch us and we later realised that he was not a buyer, he was going to torture us - he came as a buyer who was going to buy our crayfish.

JUDGE WILSON: Did Segal pretend to be a buyer, was he a trap in crayfish poaching, is that what you're telling us?  I see you smiled, do you think it's funny?

BENNET SIBAYA: The inspector said they had rearranged a buyer for us and they talked through the radio and they called Mr Segal, he didn't come as a person who was going to arrest us, he came as a buyer - he pretended to be a buyer.

JUDGE WILSON: But he in fact arrested you and Mazibuku?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, he took us to the Bellville South Police Station and he took our crayfish.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were taken into custody there?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, we were arrested and locked up.

JUDGE WILSON: Locked up in a cell?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: So, there should be a record of this in the occurrence book in the Bellville South Police Station.

MR DONAN: With all due respect Judge, I don't think the witness is qualified to answer the question, may I appeal to the Chairperson of the Committee - that's not a fair question.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I will cause enquiries to be made as to whether it was recorded.

MR DONAN: Judge, you will see in the report that there is no record of Mr Sibaya ever being in there.