Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked Mr Nosenga is, reference is made in your application to the details of other incidents and when you testified earlier on you said the other incidents referred to in your application, were the ones in Everton and Small Farms.  Do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Today, when you were being questioned by Mr Berger you said the other incidents referred to in your application, are the ones set out in the unsigned affidavit, which included Boipatong, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: These are two different things.  The first one does not refer to Boipatong, whereas the second one you referred to Boipatong, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to know then is why did you tell us that it only refers to Everton and Small Farms if in fact it included Boipatong as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that this pertains to Sebokeng as well as Small Farms and the Boipatong incident.  They are saying this one particular statement refers to Sebokeng and the other one to Boipatong, really I don't know.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, I want to put it to you the reason why there are so many discrepancies in your evidence, it was put to you previously as well, that you were not there and you didn't partake in the Boipatong massacre.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was part of that attack, I was present.

MR MEY: I want to put it to you that you are also implicating the Police and specifically Chaka and Rooikop falsely?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am not falsely implicating people.  Why do I choose to implicate Peens and Chaka when there are so many Police in South Africa?  I cannot just implicate people who were not involved.  I am saying this because they were present, this is not hearsay, I was present.

MR MEY: Who fetched you from Parys when you were brought to Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said if I still remember very well, the person who brought me was Chaka.  He brought me to Vereeniging.

MR MEY: Was he the Investigating Officer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  There were people who were investigating this case.  Sixteen is the one who was investigating the motor vehicle offence and these others were investigating ...

CHAIRPERSON: The name of the Police Officer is Sixteen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, Sixteen is the one who brought or should I say, came to investigate me on the question of the stolen vehicle, or the alleged stolen vehicle, my apology.

MR MEY: Was Chaka involved in that investigation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Chaka came to fetch me and he brought me here in Vereeniging.

MR MEY: At that stage he was at the Murder and Robbery Squad, according to you, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, in Flora Gardens in Vanderbijlpark.

MR MEY: On your way from Parys to Vereeniging, did Chaka discuss anything with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall.

MR MEY: Was he the only one who fetched you from Parys?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I still remember Chaka, I cannot recall other black Policemen.

MR MEY: Were they more than one Police Officers who fetched you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were three of them, I don't know the other two.  They were using a private vehicle.

MR MEY: He didn't say anything about the Boipatong massacre on the way from Parys to Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he did not make mention of Boipatong.  He only spoke about the Vereeniging incident.  Peens and others only came to me when I was, once I was here in Vereeniging.

MR MEY: I want to put it to you that Rooikop, alias Mr Greeff or Mr Greeff alias Rooikop, was not involved in any way with the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know about that, he was involved.  He was involved, Rooikop was involved.  I cannot just implicate him if he was not involved.

MR MEY: Chaka was not involved in any way with the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.  Chaka is involved.  Why did I just choose to implicate Chaka and not others?  Why am I not implicating other Policemen?

MR MEY: I also want to put it to you that Chaka was not a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that, but I used to see him at Flora Gardens with the other Police Officers who worked there.

MR MEY: When was that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When I was arrested with regards the vehicle.  I knew him to be working there at Flora Gardens, other people were also arrested and he was involved in their arrest.

MR MEY: During May/June 1992 Chaka was a member of the Green Beans as you called it, the Municipal Police.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I knew him to be a member of the Murder and Robbery Unit.

MR MEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair.  Mr Nosenga, you will recall that during your cross-examination you said that you were staying in Everton prior to you joining kwaMadala hostel.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did reside in Everton.

MR MAPOMA: And that you were staying with your uncle there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I grew up in my uncle's house.

MR MAPOMA: What is the name of the uncle, who is the uncle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: His name is Mude Nosenga.

MR MAPOMA: The first name again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Nosenga, Mude.

MR MAPOMA: Is the house you were staying in, his house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you left Everton, did you keep contact with him while you were staying in the kwaMadala residence, hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I could not, I was not able to go to Everton at that time, I only started communicating with him when I was in prison.

MR MAPOMA: Were you ever visited by any of your family members when you were staying in kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no sir, they were frightened.  They would not have come to see me at the hostel because it was only IFP members who resided there.

MR MAPOMA: You will remember when you gave evidence, you said your sister confronted you after the massacre about your participation in the massacre, which killed some of your relatives?  How did you communicate with her?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She told me this when I was in prison.

MR MAPOMA: When was that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.  I think she even visited me last month.

MR MAPOMA: Is she staying with your uncle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, she is married and resides in Bekkersdal.

MR MAPOMA: What are her names, her full names?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Nomvula Nosenga.

MR MAPOMA: Now that she is married, what is her surname, married surname?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Her husband is Zakhile Latha.

MR MAPOMA: I would like you to clarify your arrest now in connection with the Sebokeng attacks.  Where exactly were you arrested?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was arrested in Parys and I was transferred to Vereeniging, but I was arrested in Parys.

MR MAPOMA: Is that the arrest which was conducted by Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Chaka collected me from Parys to Vereeniging.

MR MAPOMA: And when you were arrested in Parys, were you arrested in connection with the motor vehicle or in connection with the Sebokeng attacks?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was arrested in connection with the vehicle.

MR MAPOMA: And is it out of that arrest that you happened now to be interrogated in connection with the drive-by shootings in Sebokeng and other incidents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said.  Because it was just after the Sebokeng incident.