Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, this information, why I am putting this specific question is because the statement the deceased has made, I mean, I'm sorry, the applicant is making is contrary even in his further particulars to the Commission is still contrary to the information in our possession. And on behalf of the victims, I am instructed to ask this specific question, because their main feeling is that the, or their view will be that the deceased were never a member of the Eagles gang whatsoever. That's the only reason. But in all fairness, I will just point out, point to the fact, to the statements of the applicant. Sir, your statement appears on page 20, sorry, Mr Frans Morwaeng's statement appears on page 20, paragraph 3. Can you have a look at that please? Will you please read that paragraph? Do you see that? Just for the record purposes, Mr Chairman, I will just read this. It's three sentences, just for your information on record. 	Statement of Mr Morwaeng, page 20, paragraph 3, just basically saying the following
	"Originally they called themselves Eagles up until 1990 and during 1991 they changed their names to" it looks like the Stachet or the Stachet Lovers "till 1992 when they were disbanded or when they were disbanded."
	Do you agree with that statement?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do.

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm a bit confused here because you said the Eagles were disbanded in - in fairness to yourself, did they change their names, the Stachet Lovers?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that's what I know.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry for that, Mr Chairman. Just to still deal with the - I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I do apologise. Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I may continue. Just dealing with this gang, am I right in saying, or can you dispute the fact that this Eagles gang mainly or basically operated mostly in the Orange Free State. What is your view on that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I don't agree with you, sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: Why are you saying this? Can you explain?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I knew that it was in Postmasburg. As I have already stated earlier that there is a certain man whom I do not know his name, who found these Eagles in Northern Cape in Postmasburg. He came from Bloemfontein.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see, the victims will deny this fact. They have said there was no such a gang in Postmasburg whatsoever at the time of the incident. Do you, do you have any views on that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: The next thing I want to ask you, sir, it's on behalf of the victims again, is did you have any instructions or did you receive instructions from anybody to attack or kill the deceased?

JOHN SERAME GULU: No, I did not receive instructions from anybody.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you receive any mandate or any instructions? Were you mandated by anybody or instructed to kill the deceased?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I did not receive any mandate to attack any member of the Eagles.

ADV STEENKAMP: Because if I, and I would like to refer to your amnesty application. Mr Chairman, you will see there's two amnesty applications, one being in English and the next one, if I'm not mistaken, being Afrikaans, but in any event, Mr Chairman, I would like to refer the applicant to page 5 of his own amnesty application. Page 5 and paragraph 11(a), Mr Chairman. I would just like to refer the applicant to that specific paragraph. Taking from what you were saying just now, sorry, did you read that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: And that this is what you have written here in this application?

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me a minute, just a minute, Mr Steenkamp.

ADV STEENKAMP: Page 5, Mr Chairman. Sorry, Mr Chairman, that must be his second application. Page 5, Mr Chairman, the application's been dealt with or written in English. It starts "we acted on no order". 11(a), Mr Chairman. I'm sorry if I didn't ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. Mr Steenkamp, my attention has just been directed to the fact that the first document seem to have been something which has been completed by the Branch Chairperson of the ANC as it appears on page 6 of the record. The English application. And that seems to be referring to questions of being mandated, the word mandate and so forth is used in that application. In the second application, the Afrikaans one, which appears to have been, I assume, signed by the applicant, because it seems to have been dated or signed at Grootvlei.

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Prison. I assume that, I assume that is the signature of the applicant. Yes, there it says that, firstly on page 12, it says that this was approved, "goedgekeur" by the community of Boichoko, because the deceased, the gang of the deceased constituted a big threat to the community. And then on page 13, it says that there wasn't a particular person who gave orders, there was a emergency meeting to, called to discuss or to plan a self-defence strategy. Street committees were appointed and marshals were deployed in the township in order to protect the community against the gang ... (indistinct) Eagles organisation.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, maybe for fairness' sake, I must, I will just have a look, I will stick to this application, the second one then, ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that seems to be ... (intervention)

ADV STEENKAMP: And then maybe just ask a few questions around that, if you will allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Sir, this community of Boichoko, I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it, Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: Boichoko.

ADV STEENKAMP: Boichoko, I'm sorry. What was their feeling about these actions. I mean the whole gang issue. How did they feel about this?

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Steenkamp, maybe I should just interrupt. When? Before, during, after?

ADV STEENKAMP: I mean, before, before this incident occurred. What was their feeling?

JOHN SERAME GULU: We were against this Eagles gang, because this gang was harassing and assaulting the community.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us, what was the position of the deceased in this gang? Do you know, did he occupy any position in the gang? As far as you can remember?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He was the leader of this Eagles gang.

ADV STEENKAMP: Just for your information, the victim's family will obviously deny this. They will say that he was never a member of the Eagles gang. But the question that I would like to put to you is, on what information do you base this, that he was a leader of the Eagles gang?

JOHN SERAME GULU: We were ... (indistinct) with the deceased. I know by fact that he was the leader of the Eagles gang, as I knew him personally. He was the leader of the Eagles gang.

ADV STEENKAMP: If you are saying you knew him personally, what do you mean by that? Were you friends, or enemies or what was the position?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I was, I was not his friend but I was a friend of his cousin.

ADV STEENKAMP: And who is this person? Who was his cousin, sir.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Unfortunately, I forget his name. The name appeared ... (indistinct) is Augus, he was known as Augus. I was a friend to him because we were both boxers in the township.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see, sir, the mother of the deceased is here. She will say just, I would like to put it to you that the deceased's mother will come and testify saying that the deceased was at the time .. (intervention) sorry? Was at the time a school pupil in Standard Ten, at the Ratantutu. I'll spell that, Mr Chairman, I'm sure also pronounce it incorrectly, but it's spelt Ratantutu, Ratantutu High School. Do you have, or can you deny this fact?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I can dispute this, sir, because that high school is in my street, that is Ratantutu High School. I also attended that school as well.