Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: There were several Commanding Officers of the Investigating Unit.  In this case I would like to then refer to Colonel Potgieter.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, than concludes the evidence and the questions.  Thank you very much Mr Coetzee, for being here and for answering the questions.
 You are free to stand down, thank you.  I call Lodewyk de Jager.
 Welcome and good afternoon Mr de Jager.  Would you please give attendance to Ms Sooka for the administration of the oath, thank you.

LODEWYK DE JAGER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr de Jager.  Mr Kemp, we know that you represent Mr de Jager, he has his statement in front of him, shall I just ask him to read it?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairperson, that will be in order.  May I just ask Mr Chairperson, all these witnesses have been subpoenaed to remain in attendance until Friday.  Those who have already testified, are they excused or do they have to remain in attendance until the end of the session?

CHAIRPERSON: They may be excused.

MR KEMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr de Jager.  I understand that you have a statement that you will read into the record, won't you please go ahead.

LODEWYK DE JAGER: (No translation into English)  I became a member of the Security Branch of the South African Police in 1971 and remained in that Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed now, are the translators all right?  Thank you very much.

LODEWYK DE JAGER: I am a Colonel and former member of the South African Police.  I am at present a business man of Cape Town.  The contents of this statement falls within my personal knowledge, unless otherwise stated and is to the best of my knowledge true and correct.
On the 29th of March 1965 I entered the service of the South African Police.  I became a member of the Security Branch of the SAP in 1971 and remained a member of that Unit until my retirement on 31 January 1995.
On 12 December 1984, I was transferred to the Security Branch Soweto where I served until 29 December 1988.  With my transfer to Soweto I had the rank of Captain and during my transfer I was, I had the rank of Major.
 I was advised that it was not necessary to give any further details regarding my career in the South African Police.
 At the Security Branch Soweto I was at the outset part of the information gathering component which became known as the Intelligence Unit as group head and at the stage when I was transferred from Soweto, I was the head of that Unit.
 I am dealing with matters mentioned in my subpoena.  The questioning and following death of Sizwe Sithole.  I have no personal knowledge of this matter.  I have been advised that the events regarding Sizwe Sithole took place in 1991 after I already left the Security Branch Soweto and was transferred to Cape Town.
 The use and handling of informants, sources associated with the Mandela Football Club and Winnie Mandela.  During the period that I was associated with the Security Branch Soweto I only have knowledge of one source which was specifically associated with Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.  The existence of this source only came to my attention shortly before my transfer from Soweto, resulting from the death of Sergeant Fanie Pretorius.
 The Security Branch continually used informers and sources and during the years various informers and sources gave information regarding Mrs Mandela.  I cannot remember specifically that there was information during the time that I was there, with regard to the Mandela United Football Club.
 The abduction, assault and murder of Stompie Seipei in 1988 and information regarding that.  The whole Stompie Seipei ended after I had already left Soweto in December 1988 and I have no knowledge of these events.
 Relationship between the Security Branch, Murder and Robbery, STRATCOM divisions and other units in the South African Police with regard to matters affecting Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.
 There was good co-operation between the Security Branch of the South African Police and other Units of the SAP such as Murder and Robbery.  Information was exchanged continually between the different Units, but I have no personal knowledge of any specific co-operation regarding to the activities of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.
 I was informed that there are allegations before this Commission that I was in control of the STRATCOM unit at the Security Branch Soweto.   I deny this allegation.
 To the best of my knowledge there have existed no STRATCOM unit outside Head Office in Johannesburg during 1988.  After my transfer to the Cape Province, it was part of my duties to create a STRATCOM unit.  I was not aware of any specific STRATCOM action aimed at Mrs Mandela or the Football Club during the time that I worked at the Security Branch, Soweto.
 It is however, possible that there was STRATCOM actions on instruction from Head Office or Security Branch Witwatersrand which were carried out during this time, but I cannot specifically remember that any of them were directed at Mrs Mandela or the Football Club.
 I knew Paul Erasmus well and exchanged information with him on a continual basis when I came into Johannesburg.  Because of the nature of my activities I came in Johannesburg often.
 I also knew Vic McPherson.  I want to point out that both Erasmus and McPherson testified that I was the head of the STRATCOM unit at the Security Branch Soweto, that is not correct, and I also want to point out that both of them testified that this took place in 1990.
 At that stage I had already left the Security Branch Soweto. 
 The use of Intelligence material and the relationship with Intelligence agencies with regard to matters regarding Mrs Winnie Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.
 In this regard I want to refer to what I have already testified in the paragraph preceding this one.
 The questioning or interrogation and death of Themba Johannes Mabotha.  According to information at my disposal, the detention and death of Mabotha took place in 1989, after I had already left Soweto.
 I have no personal knowledge of this matter.
Information including observations, telephone tapping, bugging, etc, regarding matters regarding Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.
 I am aware of the fact that the tapping of telephone conversations of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela took place on a continuous basis, I have no knowledge of any bugs which were used.
 The Security Branch Soweto did not have an observation unit that was out, excluding tapping, and it is not possible that they had the ability to observe a person for 24 hours a day.
 I have no knowledge of any permanent observation of Mrs Mandela's house or business or any such observations regarding the Mandela United Football Club.
 The killing of Sergeant Pretorius and two MK members, Maleleke and Mbenenge in 1988.  I was not involved in the planning of execution of the action during which Sergeant Fanie Pretorius was killed, nor do I have any personal knowledge of this matter.  I did know him very well and he was a loved member of the Force, known for the fact that he was a hard worker.
 We were all very shocked by his death.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr de Jager,  you have just heard Mr Coetzee saying that you would have an overall knowledge of informers who had been placed within Soweto and the information they were providing, is that correct?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: ... knowledge of such activities Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: In paragraph 7 of your statement you talk about one source which you knew about.  Can you tell us who this is?