Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  Today we'll be commencing with the so-called Piet Retief hearings.  Before we start, I'd just like to introduce the Panel to you.  On my right is Leah Gcabashe, she is a Member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an advocate who comes from Johannesburg.  On my left is Mr Wynand Malan, he is a Commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and also a Member of the Amnesty Committee, he also comes from Johannesburg.  I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Division thereof.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT
	I would like at this stage for the legal representatives of the various parties to kindly place themselves on record.  I think we'll just start at the end of the table and go around.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am Louisa van der Walt, I represent various persons.  If I follow the index of bundle 1, I represent applicant number 3, Mr Hayes, then Mr Barnard, Theron and number 8, Mr Rorich, number 10, Mr van Dyk and Mr Botha, who is number 11.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Walt.

MR PRINSLOO: Harry Prinsloo, Mr Chairperson.  According to the index, I represent applicant Pienaar, number 12, van Zweel and number 15, Christo Petro Deetlefs.  Thank you, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Wim Cornelius from Pretoria, I represent Deon Flores, applicant number 2 and applicant number 14, Nicholas Vermeulen.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh is my name, Mr Chairman, I represent Mr de Kock, instructed by Mr Hugo.

MR BOOYENS: Kobus Booyens, Mr Chairman, instructed by van der Merwe and Bester.  I appear for applicant number 9, Johan Hendrik Tait.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.  I represent the applicant, Nortje, applicant number 13 on the index, thanks.

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman, the name is Advocate ...(indistinct) Moerane.  I represent the families of the victims, all
of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chair, Honourable Members.  Advocate Jansen, on instructions of Julian Knight attorneys.  I represent applicant Ras, number 7 on the list.  Thank you.

MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lyn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Have the representatives amongst themselves, determined the order of the testimony to be led?

MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson.  The first amnesty applicant will be Mr Eugene de Kock.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr de Kock, you are one of the applicants in this matter, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: You have submitted a written application for amnesty, have you studied this and do you confirm the correctness of the allegations contained therein?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: You have also submitted a supplementary affidavit which deals with Vlakplaas and which can be found in bundle 1D.  Do you also confirm the correctness of the allegations contained therein?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, in June 1988, were you the Commander of Section C1, stationed at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you were involved in the so-called two Piet Retief shooting incidents.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: May we begin with the first one, which took place on the 8th of June 1988.  Will you give a brief explanation of what took place regarding the planning of the operation and how it transpired.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
"It is my recollection that the Piet Retief Security Branch requested our help and that they contacted me in the regard that Section C1 should assist with a planned infiltration of armed MK members who were going to come from Swaziland into the RSA.
		Once again this was a case where Vlakplaas was involved by other components of the Security Police, to assist them with illegal actions which were launched in protection of the public, but more specifically the police."

MR HATTINGH: Who at the Piet Retief branch requested your assistance?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was Mr Pienaar.  He was the head of the sub-branch.  Piet Retief fell below the Ermelo branch and the Ermelo branch fell below the divisional head office, which was in Middelburg.

MR HATTINGH: Did you take some of those persons under your command to Piet Retief with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall who from your unit accompanied you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the person who drove with me, if I recall correctly, was Mr Leon Flores and another one or two members followed us.  Well they didn't drive directly behind us, but they followed us to Piet Retief.  It was an action which took place on short notice.  There was also another situation at that stage which was developing, in which a think-tank was held at Josini, or at least on the north coast.  All of these events transpired simultaneously.

MR HATTINGH: And the overall Commander of Section C1, was he also involved in that think-tank or that planning action?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is entirely correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: That was Brig Schoon?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you go directly to Piet Retief, or did you go to the place where this meeting was being held?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, we first went to Piet Retief.  Initially I would have travelled with Brigadier Schoon, who was the Commander of C-Section or C-Unit.  However, I notified him of this request from Piet Retief and in that case I withdrew myself.  I briefly discussed the situation with him and informed him why he and I would not be able to travel together.  We departed for Piet Retief and it was only the following morning, I would say between 10 and 11, that we joined Brig Schoon and the rest of the group who were on their way to Black Rock.  I think it was Black Rock or Island Rock was the name of the place.

MR HATTINGH: Very well.  You then arrived in Piet Retief and was there any prior planning?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, briefly, our time was very limited. If I recall correctly, I had the opportunity or I was offered the opportunity to inform myself regarding the situation and the gravity of the situation and the correctness of the information.  One would have to test this information by means of making general enquiries.  After that I consulted with Mr Pienaar regarding the actions which would take place there.

MR HATTINGH: And what did you plan to do?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the information was that there were MK members who were armed and that is what was expected.  In all regards it indicated to me that we were going to have to deal with armed MK members here.  The commander at that stage was known, due to security reports and general information.  And it was planned to lure these MK members into an ambush.  I use the word "ambush" because the perception was later created that it was a roadblock and that is not correct.  We will address this issue as we proceed.  It was however an ambush and an ambush would usually lead to fatal cases of casualties.

MR HATTINGH: Very well.  Where would these so-called terrorists have infiltrated the public?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, from Swaziland they would have crossed the border, which would have been an illegal crossing because it would not have taken place at a border post.  Then transport would have been arranged for them from that point.  They would have followed the Houtkop road from the Swazi direction to Piet Retief and from there to Northern Natal, or to Durban, or the Durban environment, for terrorism.

MR HATTINGH: Was transport then arranged for them?