Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I would call Mr Bernard Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you give your evidence in English?
Will you assist him, Ms Thabethe, he doesn't seem to be tuning in to the right channel?

MS THABETHE: Can I proceed, Madam Chair?  Thank you.

BERNARD MKHIZE: (sworn states)

MS THABETHE: Mr Mkhize, can you please tell the Committee Members whether - which political organisation you belong to?

BERNARD MKHIZE: IFP.  I am a chairman of IFP.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell this Committee when did you become the chairman of the IFP and in which area are you a chairman of the IFP?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I became a chairman of the IFP in 1990.  Before I was a supporter and then I was elected to be a chairman of the Mboyi branch.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain to the Committee members what the political situation was in the area from let's say 1987?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I will try and explain even though some of the events I wouldn't remember very well because it has been a long time.  As from 1989 there were conflicts in the area.  It wasn't in the area where I was residing but we were under one chief and I heard that it was between two political organisations but ANC wasn't a prominent organisation in the area.  The prominent organisation was IFP.  The conflict spread from that area to our area.  This was in 1990 when the fights got to the area where I was residing and ANC was defeated and then they fled, I don't know to where.

MS THABETHE: When did the ANC, as you put it, move out of the area at Maqonqo?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I think they left late 1990, but I'm not sure.  Maybe it was in 1991 because I remember that I was shot in 1991.  I was shot in 1991 and I was admitted in hospital.  I stayed in hospital for a month and then after that incident I think the ANC fled.

MS THABETHE: After 1991, which political organisation existed at Maqonqo?

BERNARD MKHIZE: It was Inkatha, Inkatha remained.

MS THABETHE: In or after 1991, was there an area which was occupied by the ANC in the area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, there wasn't any area.  ANC used to come from outside to come and attack people and kill people and burn their houses.

MS THABETHE: Now you've heard the evidence of the applicant that in 1993 there was an attack by the IFP, it was on the 26th of February 1993, where ANC members were attacked in the area by IFP.  Do you have any knowledge, as the chairperson of the IFP at Mboyi, about this incident?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I am not sure about the dates, but I think ANC comrades came to burn down IFP houses in the area.

MS THABETHE: How do you know that the people who had come to burn these areas were ANC?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I knew this because they were swearing at us and they were shooting at people and they entered one house, I think it was Sabia's family, and they were shouting insulting words to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this on the 26th February 1993?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, I am not certain but I think it was in February, I'm not sure of the date.

MS THABETHE: Do you know the applicant, Mr Zulu?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I do know him.  His father is related to my mother.

MS THABETHE: Do you know him when he was staying at Mboyi?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I do know him.

MS THABETHE: Did you know him to belong to the ANC organisation?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I didn't know his political affiliation but he never used to come to us because he was younger than us and we only realised when they talked that they belonged to another organisation, not IFP.

MS THABETHE: If the Committee can bear with me.  In 1993 when the school bus was attacked, was there a conflict or as the applicant put it, attacks between IFP and ANC at the Maqonqo area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, there were no longer attacks because ANC was no longer in the area.  They used to come and launch their attacks and go back to wherever they were staying.

MS THABETHE: Can you clarify this to the Committee members, because I'm sure - it's not clear what you are saying.  Are you saying, because my questions is, was there still ANC/IFP conflict in the area and were there attacks between these two organisations in 1993?

BERNARD MKHIZE: The ANC was no longer in the area, but ANC will come from outside the area and attack people in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: They would come from which areas?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I will say we were staying with them before and after they fled some of them went to eNkanyezini, some of them went to Edendale, then I will say they were coming from these areas and coming to attack us.

MS THABETHE: Did you know the victims, the school kids that were shot in this incident in 1993?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I know them.

MS THABETHE: Did they belong to any political organisation?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I wouldn't say that they were affiliated with any political organisation because they were still kids.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhize?

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you Chairperson, yes, I'd like to put certain questions to him.

MR SARDIWALLA: Can you go back to 1998,1999.

MS THABETHE: Excuse me, 99?

MR SARDIWALLA: Sorry 89, excuse me.  Was there any conflict in the area at the time?

BERNARD MKHIZE: What I can say is that in 1989, as I've already explained, there were conflicts between a certain organisation which I wasn't sure of and in my area, it wasn't in the area where we were residing, but it was in another area, we were all under one chief and this spread to our area.

MR SARDIWALLA: After it spread to your area were there quite a few killings between people at the time?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, there were conflicts and fights and people were killed and the ANC was defeated, then they left.

MR SARDIWALLA: You said the ANC was defeated.  You said just now you didn't know what the organisation was.

BERNARD MKHIZE: ANC were the ones who fled.

MR SARDIWALLA: So it was the ANC people that fled.  Where did they flee to?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I think they went to different places, I don't think they went to one place, all of them, but they left the area where we were residing.

MR SARDIWALLA: What happened during 1990, 91, did these people come back?

BERNARD MKHIZE: If I can estimate it's that they fled in 1990 or 1991, I am not sure of the date.

MR SARDIWALLA: If I were to put it to you that ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Sorry, Madam Chair, I don't think the question was answered.  I don't think he understood the question because I understood the question to be saying did they return, and he only told you about their going away, so I think you should give him another opportunity to answer that.

MR SARDIWALLA: During 1990, 1991 did you find that the ANC people that actually went away in 88, 89, did they return to the area?

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting on this question.  His evidence was that he cannot recall the date, he thinks it was 1990 or maybe even 1991 when they left.  He said he thinks it was after he had been shot when he was committed to hospital, so that was his estimate of the time when they left.  He did not say that they had left in 88, 89, that was your evidence in your question.  But I think the essence of the question is the return, let's not be too finicky about the date, let's get the flow of things.

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, may I now be allowed to continue with my examination?

CHAIRPERSON: You may.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.
	Now were you not sure, there is a time that everyone returned, or many people returned to the area, is that correct?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, that's correct.

MR SARDIWALLA: And it was then that the violence escalated again?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, that's correct.

MR SARDIWALLA: And there were many political incidents between the ANC and the IFP at the time.  It was common knowledge.

BERNARD MKHIZE: Would you please repeat that for me?