Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR MEIRING: Broadly he told us that he had just come from an order group meeting from General Jappie Oelofse. That Oelofse had said that this is the "real McCoy" and that tonight would be a hard option and that the revolution would begin tonight all over the country.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you understand by an order group meeting? What is that?

MR MEIRING: My understanding of it was that all the area generals had met. And they received various instructions there.

MR PRINSLOO: And so therefore you understood that the instruction that Kloppers received came from the higher command?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did you understand by the words "the real McCoy"?

MR MEIRING: That this was the real thing, that the revolution would begin tonight.

MR PRINSLOO: By using the words war and revolution, at that point from what you experienced in the country did you regard it or experience it as a war situation?

MR MEIRING: Definitely.

MR PRINSLOO: And then he said that it was the "real McCoy" as you put it. What then?

MR MEIRING: After that Phil Kloppers asked who of us did not have arms. Two or three of the members said they did no have arms. Upon which he produced 2 hand made shot guns from his car and gave them to the people.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know to who the 2 hand made shot guns were handed over.

MR MEIRING: At that point I was not certain who did he give them to. One was given to Martin van der Schyff and the other one to Etienne Visser.

MR PRINSLOO: Your co-applicants?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And then from the roadside cafe did you go to a specific place or places?

MR MEIRING: After that we went to Jaco Badenhorst parental home where we found the 2 vehicles which we would have used, that was the Sentra and the Mercedes. And we changed their number plates with masking tape.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you enjoy a drink anywhere?

MR MEIRING: After we had changed the license plates with masking tape we went to Visser's home where we had a drink.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you have to drink?

MR MEIRING: I had a glass of whisky with water.

MR PRINSLOO: Did it have any influence on you at all?

MR MEIRING: No.

MR PRINSLOO: And at any stage was it said to you where you would go and what would happen?

MR MEIRING: We were told at Deon Martin's house that when we picked up the roadblock equipment that we would be having a roadblock at the Radora crossing. We did not know exactly where it was. Martin and Kloppers drove ahead of us to that place.

MR PRINSLOO: On the way to that specific place where the roadblock would be held did any incident occur before that?

MR MEIRING: Yes an incident did occur. Two black persons came walking out of a plot, the Sentra stopped, three jumped out to go and speak to these black people. I do not know what happened. I personally did not climb out of the vehicle and go with them. Badenhorst and I remained in the vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: When you say that you remained in the vehicle are you referring to the Sentra?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is the Sentra which I am referring to.

MR PRINSLOO: Who were passengers in the Sentra?

MR MEIRING: Myself, Matthews, Badenhorst, Diedericks and van der Schyff.

MR PRINSLOO: And after they had climbed out and gone to those people and returned did Commandant Kloppers speak to them about their conduct at any time?

MR MEIRING: Yes. The Mercedes stopped quite a way away from there to wait for us after they had climbed back into the vehicle the Sentra drove on to where the Mercedes was, where Phil Kloppers admonished them for assaulting the black people on the side of the road.

MR PRINSLOO: So they were chastised for that?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And after that you left for the specific Radora, Ventersdorp crossing?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: At the Ventersdorp crossing or in that area was a specific instruction issued to you as to what your tasks would be?

MR MEIRING: Yes. I had to set up the roadblock and that is what I did.

MR PRINSLOO: And who issued the instruction to you to set up the roadblock?

MR MEIRING: I am not entirely certain who it was. It could be one of the two commandants.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you set up such a roadblock?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Just broadly, how was it set up?

MR MEIRING: I appointed 3 people with reflector jackets as traffic officers who had to pull over the vehicles at the roadblock. Then I placed 2 other people a little bit further in the veld to ensure that people could not run away. Mr Visser would switch the blue light on the roof of the Sentra on and off. And I myself supervised to see that everything would go according to plan.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any person who had a torchlight?

MR MEIRING: The presiding traffic officers were furnished with flashlights but I do not know who exactly had the flashlights.

MR PRINSLOO: What would happen then if a vehicle approached? What was the procedure?

MR MEIRING: The instruction was that the Mercedes would drive along, identify a vehicle with black passengers, turn around to take over the vehicle, flash headlights at us, upon which we would switch on the blue light and pull the vehicle off to the side of the road.

MR PRINSLOO: What would be the purpose of pulling the vehicle off the road?

MR MEIRING: After that the passengers would be asked to climb out of the vehicle. They would be searched and asked to sit on the side of the road upon which the vehicle would be searched.

MR PRINSLOO: Would the passengers be questioned in any way?

MR MEIRING: Martin and Kloppers would undertake the questioning. That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know what the purpose behind the questioning was?

MR MEIRING: It would be to determine to which political party they belonged, where they came from and where they were going.

MR PRINSLOO: After it had been determined that a person belonged to a certain political party what would happen then?

MR MEIRING: That would depend upon which political party the person belonged to. If it was the IFP the persons would be let go and if it was ANC then the instruction was to shoot such people dead.

MR PRINSLOO: At that point was the AWB favourably inclined towards the IFP?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You have said to the Committee that the Mercedes would indicate if a vehicle was approaching, a vehicle with black passengers which had to be apprehended, what happened then?

MR MEIRING: Some of the vehicles which we pulled over early in the evening and I cannot recall exactly how many there were did not belong to certain political parties and after the vehicles and the passengers had been searched we let them go.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that after you had determined to which political parties the passengers belonged?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Thus persons who belonged to other parties for example those to which the AWB were favourably inclined would be allowed to go?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you tell the Committee what happened with the other vehicles which arrived? Can you tell the Committee what happened when the Honda Ballade and the other vehicle arrived?

MR MEIRING: When the Honda Ballade and the Cressida arrived they stopped approximately 200 metres away from the roadblock. I do not know what happened there but after a while the vehicles moved forward. The traffic officers who had been appointed or those who had been appointed as traffic officers pulled the vehicles off the road. The passengers were told to get out. They were searched as well as the vehicles.

MR PRINSLOO: And after that what happened then?