Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everyone, welcome.   I can't even remember which day of the hearing it is, but it is one of those days, the seventh, is it?  The 2nd of December 1997, I think.  I welcome you all to the seventh day of this particular hearing.  We have a very full day and I be grateful for as much cooperation as possible.  Will you all stand please.

COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.  Thank you Dr Mgojo.  Our first witness this morning is Mr Thulani Dlamini who wasn't well yesterday but I am informed that he is okay today, so I call Thulani Dlamini.
 Good morning Mr Dlamini.  Are you feeling a little better today?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am very well, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I couldn't hear you.  A little better?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Welcome, just be absolutely relaxed.  You've got nothing to worry about.  I am going to ask Ms Sooka to do the oath.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Sooka.  Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, the name is Michael Miller, I appear for the witness Thulani Dlamini.  Deputy Chairperson, I just want to state that I have prepared my own statement of Mr Dlamini which I have been through with him, and he has confirmed the correctness.  I have given it to Mr Vally to have copies made and I would expect that by the time we have finished the evidence in chief, no doubt everyone will be in possession of a copy.
 Now, Mr Dlamini, you have been found guilty, is it correct, of the murder of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is true.

MR MILLER: And also of robbing him of R145-00 in cash?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is what they said at a court of law, they said I robbed him.

MR MILLER: And you are serving a sentence of 25 years?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is true.

MR MILLER: Now, where were you born?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was born in Nongoma.

MR MILLER: In what year?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: In 1969.

MR MILLER: And did you do your schooling there?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MILLER: And what standard did you reach?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I left school at standard five.

MR MILLER: That was in 1992?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And then you came to Johannesburg to seek work?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MILLER: Now, have you at all been politically active, had you belonged to any political organisation whether in Nongoma or here?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: In Nongoma I was a UDF member.

MR MILLER: Are you still a UDF member?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, no.

MR MILLER: What organisation did you join?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I joined the IFP.

MR MILLER: And why was that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: My family is IFP.

MR MILLER: And are you still active as a member of the IFP.  Prior to the time of your arrest obviously, did you attend meetings?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I was no longer as active.

MR MILLER: Okay, now did you find work here in Johannesburg?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I got a job at a filling station, garage, Tony's garage.

MR MILLER: Toby's garage, what work did you do there?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was greasing, that was my work.

MR MILLER: And did you leave this work at some stage?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I left that work.

MR MILLER: Okay, and I will take you quickly through this part.  You then went and you found work with a cousin of yours at Mzamomhle hostel where you were also living at the time?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: Now, is there a club house at the hostel?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.

MR MILLER: Is there a club house at the hostel?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: And you had a cousin, his name was Mosonjani, is that right?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And he introduced you to certain people?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MILLER: Can you - was any one of them a person who features in this Commission, whose name you are going to mention a lot?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.

MR MILLER: Well, who is it you met there?  You met another person there from Nongoma, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It is Mr Botha Swala.

MR MILLER: And you knew him, you had previously met him in Nongoma?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I knew him.  I was still young then, quite young.

MR MILLER: And when you met Botha Swala at the hostel, he mentioned to you that he knows a certain person, well known person?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.  Mrs Mandela.

MR MILLER: Did you at any time prior to the incident you are going to testify about, at any time meet Jerry Richardson?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I had never rendered any testimony in Richardson's case.

MR MILLER: No, you didn't understand the question.  Did you prior to the incident, in other words, prior to Dr Asvat's murder, did you meet Jerry Richardson?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I had never met Richardson.

MR MILLER: When was the first time you met him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The very fist time I met Jerry Richardson it was when we were arrested at (indistinct)

MR MILLER: I see.  Now on a certain day, Botha Swala came to see you in the club house, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MILLER: And what did he say?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Botha Swala wanted to see Bafana Zondo.

MR MILLER: Who is Bafana Zondo?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Bafana Zondo is one of the people who were ANC members.

MR MILLER: And was Bafana Zondo present?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Bafana Zondo was not present that day, although he used to come a lot to that place.

MR MILLER: Okay, did you then have any further discussion with Botha Swala?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, we had discussions with Botha Swala.

MR MILLER: What happened, what did he say?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Botha Swala first of all he asked me for Bafana Zondo, as to where he was.  I told him that I did not know where Bafana Zondo was at the time and he wanted to know as to where we could find him.  I said I don't know because the last time I saw Bafana Zondo was the previous night and he did not even come to sleep in that house, and went on to ask me about Cyril Mbatha.
 I said I don't know Cyril, maybe you can go to the location to look for him.  I knew him, but he was living far away from where I was and he said there was somebody who had a car, Kgase.
 We had to look for Kgase.  Kgase was a mechanic, car mechanic and he will come to the Mzamomhle hostel to fix cars.  I was not quite used to Kgase.  We knew each other.  I had another friend who was quite used to Kgase and that is how I got to know Kgase, through my friend.

MR MILLER: Okay, let's cut it a bit short.  Did you eventually find Mbatha, Cyril Mbatha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: And when you found him, did you speak to him, did you say something to him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I took him to Botha because I knew that Botha wanted to see Mbatha.

MR MILLER: Yes.  And then the three of you had a meeting, in other words you, Mbatha and Botha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: What was discussed at the meeting?

MR MILLER: Botha greeted us and greeted Mbatha and asked as to where I found Mbatha and I told him exactly where I found Mbatha and Botha asked which place did I locate Mbatha and I told him exactly where in the location I located Mbatha.  May I go on?

MR MILLER: Please.