Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: I cannot recall precisely the time, but it was just before nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: There is one thing that I just want to check on the chronological order of the incidents - of the three incidents that we are busy with today, which occurred first?

MR MGIDLANA: As I understand it Judge, the first incident was the ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am asking the witness.

FUNDISELE GULENI: The first incident is Mr Mapipa's.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the second?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The second one is the Voter Education one.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, listen to this question very carefully, there was an ongoing battle between the members of the ANC and the members of the PAC in that area, correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When did the ANC take a decision to combat the problems that it perceived the PAC was causing it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I could not say there was a precise time to it, but whenever these threats were imposed by the PAC on the ANC, the regional office will receive a report about that.  The ANC was aware all the time that there was a faction between the PAC and the ANC in Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, I don't want a long story.   A simple question, from the evidence you give, there was a time when the ANC said "look, we are going to retaliate and we are going to deal with the PAC because it is interfering with our political activities", all I need to know is when did that threshold, when was that threshold crossed?  Mr Mapipa was apparently shot because of his association at least with the PAC.  The PAC members in Mr - whose home was that - Mposelwa, his house was almost handgrenaded because of the PAC problems, so some time before then there must have been a decision "look, we cannot take this any more, we are going to retaliate".  All I want to know is when did that occur?

FUNDISELE GULENI: A decision was reached when the Chairperson heard about the incident of the Voter Education and he said to us should there be a firing, we must just fire back, but there was a point when it was said "enough was enough", but the decision was just taken that with that incident at that time, he just said that should there be firing, we should just fire back.

CHAIRPERSON: Was a decision about what you should do if you heard that there was an impending attack on you, the ANC?

FUNDISELE GULENI: When there was a meeting held, but there was no meeting called specifically to deal with this matter.   This was reached by people who had just received the message including me.  Before we could reach a decision in a formal meeting, this car appeared there and there, but there was no official decision taken by the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You are misunderstanding me, you are not the ANC alone, understand that.  When was there a policy decision to take on the PAC in that area?  I am not talking about your personal decision, I am talking about the organisational decision.

FUNDISELE GULENI: There was no policy based decision from the organisation.

MR MALUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  My instructions on the point I was at, you say you met them at nine in the morning, my instruction is that you met them at seven in the morning, but let's take your nine o'clock in the morning.  You picked them up from the hiking spot at nine o'clock in the morning, when was the first shooting by Mqiza, at what time approximately did Mqiza shoot the three people he was interrogating?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I want to rectify this by saying it was not after nine, I did not say it was nine o'clock.  Secondly, it took us some time and when I estimate it was more than an hour, after meeting them, from the time when we met them up to when this shooting incident took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Guleni, you know, I know it is not the first time that you are appearing to make application, we are not a court of law, you don't have to go through all these long details.  We would appreciate you answering the question and you don't need to fear that you may be tricked, because if any of these Attorneys are busy leading you up the garden path, I will protect you, do you understand that, so you don't need to fear, do you understand that?  You don't need to fear that you are missing out the detail.  Just answer the question as simply as you can.  You tend to give long stories that we have heard before.  Sometimes it is not in your interest to give long answers.  Please proceed.

MR MALUSI: If I may remind you, the question is simply this, sir - at what time did Mqiza first shoot at the APLA members he was interrogating, approximately - you may not remember the exact time?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I can say it was between eleven and twelve o'clock, that is estimation.

MR MALUSI: When you took these APLA members from the hiking spot, if I've got your testimony correctly, it is to the effect that you just wanted information from them, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, we wanted some information, but we didn't know as to what kind of people we were dealing with, meaning that we wanted information, that we were expecting anything to happen.

MR MALUSI: My question then would be, if indeed you wanted details by the time Mqiza shot  the three APLA members he was interrogating, you already had those details, that is you already knew they were from an APLA or TDF base in Lusikisiki, that they were on their way to Umtata, that they were not armed, they had no arms on them, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We were still going on, I cannot say yes, that is true, we were still continuing interrogating them or questioning them, but we had some information, we got some details from them at the time.

MR MALUSI: If you had the details I have just related to you at the time Mqiza shot these people, what more could you be asking for, what more could you be looking for from them?

FUNDISELE GULENI: what we were looking for was to see if we could reconcile these stories from the two groups, because we wanted to see if they were actually telling the truth and their stories were the same, and they were intimidated before we divided them into two groups.  We were still getting informations, therefore we wanted to reconcile the stories, the two stories from each groups.

MR MALUSI: Yes.  If I got your testimony correctly, it is to the effect that after Mqiza shot the three Apla members, you would then - or you then suggested that they be taken to hospital, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALUSI: Mzwandile or some other member of the group then suggested that they be silenced so to speak, that is they be killed, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALUSI: Do you associate yourself with that decision?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I associate myself with that decision.

MR MALUSI: What was the reasoning behind that decision, that the APLA members should be silenced?  What did you hope to achieve by silencing them?

FUNDISELE GULENI: First of all what came to our mind, was that there was no way that we could escape that situation and secondly Mzwandile had emphasised the fact that we had no alternative and even amongst us, the atmosphere was not as good.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot understand your answer.  First you say you didn't agree with the plan to kill these members, you argued with Mzwandile and in fact you did not participate in anything to do with their killing, do you recall you said so?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you concede that you agreed with that decision, how does that make sense?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I am saying that I was part of that agreement because after ...

INTERPRETER: Something is wrong with the speaker's microphone.

FUNDISELE GULENI: After Mzwandile had suggested this, saying that we could not escape that situation, we came to an agreement that we should take his suggestion to silence them.  That is why I see myself as part of that agreement.