Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR DUBE: No, that's no the one.  It's not the one because during that time January, that is around 20th 1988, that was the time when he had disappeared from us.  We did not know his whereabouts.

MR RICHARD: But then you read of his detention in the press.  Is that correct?  You said so.

MR DUBE: This is why I said I may have confused incidents this year because earlier on I did make mention of the fact that there are many things that I used to do, so I would not, unless I'm made of special fabric that I could remember every incident and event and the sequence in which they happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how did you know that he had been arrested in possession of a Makarov pistol and a hand grenade and been released a few hours later?

MR DUBE: That I was told by him on the day we shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: You were told by him on the day you shot him, three months after the arrest.  Is that what you're telling me now?

MR DUBE: What I'm saying is after Sicelo's arrest he disappeared.  We did not know his whereabouts.  We're looking for him, as to where he was as a member of the cell.  On the other hand there were other things that were in his possession that I had to account for, like Makarov for instance, and if a Makarov is in your hand we will not let go of you like that.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know then, you did not know you say.  Are you now telling us that he was arrested in October but you didn't know why?  You only found that out on the day you killed him.

MR DUBE: Once again I'm repeating this point that I have already said that I gave him this weapons and subsequently he was arrested and disappeared thereafter from us.  And I had to account for these weapons as I said again earlier on that the decision that Sicelo must be shot, I took it on the spot when he came to us that very day in question.

CHAIRPERSON: You remember that a few minutes ago in your evidence you told us, on oath, that he was arrested at the DPSC office where they found a Makarov pistol and a hand grenade in his possession.

MR DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say you don't know that now.  You only learned that on the day he was killed, so you had no reason, when you heard of his arrest, to suspect anything funny about it.

MR DUBE: What I did not explain I think, here, is to put together the aspects that Sicelo is the one who told me that day as to where those things were.  Now my explanation combines these two things, as I am again saying that after his arrest I did not have or build any conclusions that he will be shot or what.  I only took that decision on that day when he came to us.

ADV SANDI: What, Mr Dube, what exactly did Sicelo say to you had happened to his weapons, the Makarov and the hand grenade?

MR DUBE: What he said to me was they were confiscated by the police.

ADV SANDI: Where were they confiscated?

MR DUBE: One other thing he made mention of was the fact that he was at John Vorster.

ADV SANDI: Did he say to you when he was arrested at the DPSC offices he had these weapons with him?  Is that what he told you?

MR DUBE: That's what he told me, that he had those weapons in his possession at the time.

ADV SANDI: Before he told you that, what did you think had happened to those weapons?

MR DUBE: As I said earlier on, I kept asking myself questions one after another as to here's a person he has disappeared and there are weapons with him and I had to account for those weapons.  That worried me and bothered me a great deal.  The answer was furnished to me when I was with him on the particular day when he showed up to us, all of us.

ADV SANDI: So it seems to me that the situation must have been that until the day he told you what had happened to the weapons you were all along assuming that he must have been arrested with the weapons, or he must have taken the police to the place where he was keeping the weapons.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: To tell the honest truth, I was confused, I did not know what the position was in relation to the weapons and it was a bit difficult for me to draw any conclusions as such.

MR RICHARD: Well let's return to October 87.  The correct version according to my instructions is that one morning he was walking to school, he was stopped by the police, and detained.  During the course of that detention he informs his then attorney he was pressurised to be an informer, assaulted and kicked.  He was released the same day.  To stop the assault he fobbed the police off with the answer that he would become and informer, but on his release he went straight back to the structures around, principally Mr Ayob's office, and reported the entire incident.

MR DUBE: Mr Who's office?

MR RICHARD: Ayob.  A Y O B.  And that was noted contemporaneously at the time.

DR TSOTSI: What date was that?

MR RICHARD: I don't have a precise date.  12 October.  I do have it, I correct myself.

MR DUBE: Were you posing a question to me.

MR RICHARD: Do you know anything about that incident?

MR DUBE: I bear no knowledge of that.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you know that Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala, the second applicant, and the accused, sorry, the deceased, were good friends.

MR DUBE: Yes, that I know.

MR RICHARD: In fact they had been very close friends for a long time, for a number of years.

MR DUBE: That is what I know.

MR RICHARD: Now during that period when you say the deceased was missing and you did not know where he was, did it ever occur to you to ask Mr Tshabalala to go to his home and find out?

MR DUBE: He was in the same state as us.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean he was in the same state as us?

MR DUBE: I say that because we all did not know Sicelo's whereabouts.  We did not know as to where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not an obvious reason to go to his parents and try to find out where he was

MR DUBE: What I said because people of Emdeni, they were people of Emdeni, the three of them, I asked them to go find out about Sicelo's position as to where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did ask them to go and find out.  So why did you first say oh he was in the same state as us?  Why didn't you just tell us I did ask him to go and find out?

MR DUBE: I was trying to say that.  I was trying to explain that.  I was trying to say exactly what I said, by so saying.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  Now, if I were to call Mrs Dhlomo, she would say that Sipho was treated like one of the family.  He ate there regularly, he had meals there regularly, and she would also say that while her son might not have stayed at home continuously he was in constant contact, there was no secret where he was, he was attending to his normal activities, doing the DPSC and Sosco and SRC, moving around the township, visiting people in Baragwanath Hospital, giving them money, ...(indistinct), would you say you were unaware of all that?

MR DUBE: As I had said earlier on that I only knew Sicelo through Sipho and Clive.  So that would mean Or will explain that they attended the same school and they were friends as well.

MR RICHARD: Do you know Joe Klaweli?

MR DUBE: No I don't know.

MR RICHARD: For various reasons to do with his fear of the security police and being again detained and assaulted, the deceased was living with Joe Klaweli in Johannesburg.  He wasn't living with his parents but he was in constant contact.  So you don't know who Joe Thlaewele is.

MR DUBE: I did say that I don't know Joe Thlaewele.

MR RICHARD: And ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, how do you spell the name of this person?

MR RICHARD: T H L A E W E L E.  Mr Thlaewele was a DPSC worker at the time.  Do you know any, have any information of that nature.

MR DUBE: I'd say that, and I reiterate the fact that I don't know him

MR RICHARD: But to return to the October incident as you referred to.  You are still certain that you did read about it in the press.  You stand by that answer?