Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Thank you, Chairperson.  I think now they call it gross human rights violation.  I think historically MASA was formed like most Afrikaner organisations, the Broederbond.  It was around those Afrikaner male doctors who formed that association.  To them it was really to support the status quo.  What they used to say very clearly, separate politics and health.  Health is separate and politics is separate.  These days we are talking our own language.  It is so funny.  They talk about this Human Rights, Bill of Rights, Constitution, you should enshrine poverty rights, which they did not have any regard for.  What they did, it goes back a long way.  Neil Aggett was a doctor by profession.  They never cared for him.  They said he jumped or something.  Steve's death was even worse because doctors were involved there.  Actually, they reminded us of the Nazi in Germany, where the doctors will actually examine you and say you are fit for torture.  After they have examined a person they would just say to that person, no, he is still fit for more torture, and they did that repeatedly.  They should be charged with gross human rights violation.  But MASA as I said was a boy's club, in actual fact a Broederbond belonging, so it did not see anything wrong with that.  
And just to give you some international background, MASA was belonging to what was called "World Medical Association, and because of that action of MASA a lot of countries pulled out of... because they were disgusted that MASA was still part of that.  I usually speak on radio this is why I am saying DJ.  I am sorry.  Now MASA has already changed itself now.  MASA has changed itself.  These people are talking our language.  We are very sceptical on them.  We do not think that these people have parted from that past.  For instance some of the district surgeons and some of the prison warders, I have a document here, I am sure Comrade Malghas would remember Dr Kotze.  That guy discharged them from the prison hospital just to make sure that they could take more intake on people who are on hunger strike.  Such doctors we put to MASA and asked what do we do with this guy because there is no authority over them.  There are a lot of cases, Chairperson, where MASA was very negligent to say the least.
(?) There are several doctors who have been identified throughout your testimony, for example a doctor Labuschagne who apparently played a significant role not only in guiding the torture but in giving instructions to tell whether somebody was fit for torture or not.  The question I would like to know is, do you know if these doctors were members of the Medical Association of South Africa?

WITNESS: I will say 99% of all the White doctors belong to MASA until after the Steve Biko inquest or occurrence.  Many White doctors left.  Especially what [Inaudible...] called liberals, from English institutions they came out and joined, but the majority of the White doctors were belonging to MASA.  They were given protection, even how MASA operates, even the Medical Dental Council, if you are a doctor you cannot lay a charge against another doctor.  So if you remember Professor Heyns at Cape Town became the dossier as to what these guys did around Steve Biko and that was kicked out by MASA and the Medical Dental Council.  So really there was this real network around them to protect them, but I think I can say 99% was part of MASA.
(?) Thank you.  Could you give the Commission the benefit of your wisdom since we are after the truth.  Do you think that these doctors should also be invited to appear before the Commission to discuss their role in general, their role in specific with respect to these cases?

WITNESS: Thank you, Chairperson.  I think I will be very specific and actually target one doctor.  I will tell you the reason why.  Dr Laing, he was part of Steve Biko's death as well as the inquest and eventually being found guilty and sentenced.  After that he is also involved with the  detainees at St Albans.  Laing was in charge of...  
Definitely, Chairperson, he must come in front of the Truth Commission even if he is an old man, even if he has retired, he must come.  At some stage he said in the newspaper he said his piece.  I think he should rather come and say it here so that it can be documented, so that people can hear what sort of person he is.  I cannot believe that if you are a trained doctor to look after people's spiritual healing and you could be one of the doctors who torture other people.  I even know where he stays.  I can go and call him for you.
(?) In the other testimonies it has frequently been said that the hospitals in South Africa have played a role that is, and I quote, "an extension of the prisons."  Examples were given that when people were shot by the police with very serious wounds, some of them not fatal, and then when they were admitted to the emergency rooms in the hospitals that they were made to sit for hours on end and most of them did not survive when they could have survived if treatment had been provided immediately.  What is your thinking about that?

WITNESS: Thank you, Chairperson.  Here in Port Elizabeth we had then two hospitals.  The third one which is Provincial Hospital was out of reach of the people.  Unfortunately the Dora Nginza Hospital did not have any facilities where I also work.  As I said initially we had police 24 hours at Casualty.  
Those days people would just sit right at the entrance of the Casualty.  I do admire the nurses who used to work at the hospital at that time.  What used to happen there is, the first thing they wanted to know was whether you have been shot.  If you had been shot you immediately would be under arrest.  Sometimes they had to drag you out of the hospitals to St Albans then you will be arrested.  It was obviously so.  It was doing what the State wanted it to do. [Information lost due to recording] should then try and enforce medical ethical standards and they had the backing of the Medical Council, but one was not sure because Chairperson knows  they were Whites.  So one was not sure whether it was part of the extension of the system.  Really it was terrible.  People were admitted to hospital with serious injuries.  You find people chained to the beds and a warder would be present at all times giving orders to the patients.  I would say they were definitely part of that system at that time.  It was possible that if you were shot in the township they would just go around with you in the township until it was too late for them to take you to hospital.
(?) Similarly, would you advise the Commission to ask these hospitals to also appear before the Commission to talk about their role?