Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

UNKNOWN: Like I explained, that we used to get reports about these meetings and these reports used to come back with decisions as to who to eliminate and all those meetings were held at Mr Gumede's house, not at my father's house.  At Mr Gumede's house, that is where the decisions of eliminating my brothers were taken.

JUDGE WILSON: ... that Booi took over I think as Chief in 1990.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And was your father not able to perform the functions of Chief after that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct, he was sickly, very sick.
And Booi took over until 1991, he was officially put as a 
5A  - 11.2	Chief/...
JUDGE WILSON	166	MR MZIMELA
Chief.

JUDGE WILSON: And is it also correct that ... told us about your brother Hewitt Gwenge was killed in May 1992.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And your youngest brother Sabani was stabbed in February 1994.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did you hope to achieve by killing the deceased?

UNKNOWN: The way things were happening, I thought it was going to be better if he was not alive, because he was the one who was behind all these killings.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was there any improvement of the situation after his death?

UNKNOWN: There was no improvement, it got worse.  Because it was for the first time that the IFP lost someone who was a leader.   It got worse than before because the IFP experienced this for the first time, losing someone who was a leader.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: That's when they got out and they were not hiding anything and they said because I did that everyone who was an ANC member must be killed in that area.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... and this may be wrong, I got the impression that you were not very enthusiastic in referring or acknowledging the late Chief as your father.

UNKNOWN: That is not true.  That could be a mistake if it was conveyed as being so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I was just wondering whether the conflict could have gone that far.  Anyway, I accept that I could be wrong.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
167

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: No re-examination.  Thank you, Sir.

MS THABETHE: Chairperson, should I proceed to call the victim's next-of-kin?

CHAIRPERSON: Is the applicant not calling any other witness?

MR WILLS: The applicant will not call another witness at this stage, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

UNKNOWN: s s

MS THABETHE: Mrs Gumede, is there anything that you would like to say before this honourable Commission?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Could you please continue?

UNKNOWN: I want to say that I saw the applicant coming to my place and he had come to kill my husband.  I heard him say yes, and when I looked up, because I was looking down, I saw him firing.  He fired twice and that's when I ran away.

MS THABETHE: Who was saying yes?

UNKNOWN: He is the one, that is the applicant, the killer.

MS THABETHE: You may continue.

UNKNOWN: At the time I didn't know him, but when the police came to investigate the matter I told them as to what he was wearing and I further conveyed that I did not know him.  They went to look out for him but they couldn't get him.  They got two men and I said these were not the ones.  And the second time they brought him.

MS THABETHE: I think if you would like to ask the Commission or put any reason forth as to why the applicant
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MS THABETHE	168	MRS E GUMEDE
shouldn't be granted amnesty.

UNKNOWN: What I want to know is, I did hear his testimony as he spoke, but I personally as the person who stayed with my husband, I am going to deny all that the applicant has said as he mentioned certain meetings where resolutions were taken for certain people to be eliminated.  As he was not present he could say that because he did not know what happened in those meetings.  My wish was that this applicant should know that whatever he did, he did it because of the people who hated my husband.  The brothers that he is referring to, in the first place my husband was at Ngwelazani Hospital at the time that they died.  He was there admitted for three months, and the other ones, that is the two following, especially the one who died at Mzimduzu,  I was at my place together with my husband and we heard some gunshots beside the road and I was inside the house, I was cooking.  I went out and ran to my husband.  After quite some time we heard screams from the Mhlongo family of Mhlongo Place.

MS THABETHE: Are there any meetings that were held in your house?

UNKNOWN: The meetings that used to be held there according to my own knowledge, were meetings with regard to the Chief's monies or Chief's collections, meetings where people had brought their matters to be solved or problems or cases.  And the Chief would deal with those cases and they were passed on to the Induna.  That is all I know about the meetings that took place.

MS THABETHE: Were you always present at the meetings?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was always present because the meetings were held in my yard and even women were allowed to attend
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MS THABETHE	169	MRS E GUMEDE
those meetings.

MS THABETHE: Is there anything else that you would like to say?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I would like to point out and clarify to the applicant that he killed my husband for no particular reason.  As he has already explained, we heard the attacks but my husband was not present.  We saw a car coming from Nqewani and this car wanted to pass through a bridge and when the other car which was coming from International came and it took a U-turn and went back to the other car which was standing at that time and that is where they started fighting.  And when there was quiet the other car went back and we were watching the attack that took place between these cars.   When the other cars came to pass through the bridge and some came to watch the incident and the police also came, I want to clarify that my husband was not present at that time.  The applicant was misled by certain people who hated my husband.

MS THABETHE: Are you through?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I am.

MR WILLS: Mr Gumede, you have seen me prior to this day in the court proceedings at Matubatuba.   Mrs Gumede, both my client and myself are very sorry for the incident that occurred and I don't want to and I don't intend to in any way show any disrespect towards you by cross-examining you on the evidence before this Commission.  I don't think it would be appropriate.  But on behalf of my client I am instructed to convey his wish that there can be real peace in the area and that this violence can stop.  Thank you.
	Mr Chairperson, the applicant has requested if he 
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MR WILLS	170	MRS E GUMEDE
could say something at this stage, is this permissible?

CHAIRPERSON: Does he wish to say something this Commission or to this witness?

MR WILLS: To the witness, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: He may do so.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Gumede, I respect you very much.  I just want to say how deeply hurt and regretful I am because you have lost your husband and a friend.  That was not my aim to just kill your husband.  It was the situation that forced me to behave in the manner that I did.  As I have already pointed out before, that I wish that you could be free because you were present when this took place.  You saw that you were not directly involved and I could not find any reason to attack you and I do not have any plans to do so in the future.  I wish to express my sincere apologies to you.  I thank this honourable Commission for having granted me the chance to address Mrs Gumede.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mrs Gumede, was your husband a member of the IFP?

UNKNOWN: He was the Chief's counsellor.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Does that automatically mean that he must have been a member of the IFP?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was a member of the IFP.