Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Because there would not be so much suspicion if other persons were around who were watching her movements in Swaziland or who knew her movements in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: In other words she did not have to give any explanations if she was absent for a short while, is that what you're saying?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Or she could explain it easier other than if she was away for a long period?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now it is the next morning, did you speak to her again?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I spoke to her again, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And Du Preez and Wasserman, did they join you from Swaziland?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: They arrived at about after 7 of that morning and the decision was that since we could not recruit her there was no purpose in staying there because we would just attract attention.

MR VISSER: And what did you decide to do then?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was decided to leave with her and the appointed place was the safe house or safe farm which was used by Colonel Vorster in the surrounding area of Pietermaritzburg and to take her there.

MR VISSER: And this is what you did?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, we left for Pietermaritzburg, we went to the farm, it was the first time that I had been there.

MR VISSER: This was a farm by the name of Elandskop?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And in which vehicle did you travel?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I travelled in the mini-bus with her.

MR VISSER: And what happened on the way to Pietermaritzburg, between yourself and Miss Ndwandwe?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I questioned her and I still tried by means of questioning and the conversation I had with her to recruit her and to do an evaluation as to her recruitability.

MR VISSER: Can I just ask you in general.  In your application you give certain information that you received from her and you gave evidence to that and I wish to ask you, can you remember today which information or what information you received from where?  In other words in a sense of at Onverwagt border post in the police house or in the bus on your way to Pietermaritzburg or as we later heard during interrogation at the farm?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, in terms of the test for her cooperation, the acts which she confirmed was committed by Ntwene and some of his unit as well as supplementary information was given to us the first evening and more information was given on the way.

MR MALAN: Excuse me, I did not hear?  The confirmation of Ntwene's involvement, when did she give this to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The first evening already.

MR MALAN: At the police house?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The police house yes.

MR VISSER: And you received supplementary information on the way to Pietermaritzburg and my question is can you recall today what you received from her at the border post and what information you gathered from her in the Combi?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I can recall that the information with regards to Sukela and Raju was gathered while we were on our way to Pietermaritzburg.

MR VISSER: And other than that, you can't remember?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Let's go directly to the farm, you arrive at the farm, is there a house?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes there was a house.

MR VISSER: And you are in the house now?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes we sat in the house.

MR VISSER: Do you continue with the interrogation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I still continued interrogating her.

MR VISSER: Did she give any new information there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.  We were going around in circles, I was of the opinion that I got that I wanted, that there was nothing else and I also put in my report that she would not succeed as an informant.

MR VISSER: At what time did you arrive at the farm?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was during the morning, about 11 or 12.

MR VISSER: And you came to the conclusion that she couldn't be recruited?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I handed her over to Colonel Taylor.  Brigadier Steyn and Vorster were also present, I think Wasserman and Du Preez were also there and I left for Durban with the informants.

MR VISSER: And was this the last that you dealt with her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: This is the last time I dealt with her, yes.

MR VISSER: Who according to your knowledge took the decision to eliminate her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I think the decision was already taken, in as far as I know the final decision was made by Brigadier Steyn and Colonel Taylor.

MR VISSER: And when you left, did you know she was to be eliminated?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: According to your knowledge?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And that is basically because according to you she could not be recruited as an informant?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: This is why she was abducted in the first instance but taking that step or what was between her and that step was her cooperation as an informant.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: To stop her activities from Swaziland and the activities as it manifested here, her elimination was on the cards, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, but she could have prevented it, if I could put it as such, if she could convince you that she was willing to be an informant?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: On the construction you have just given us now, is it not true that you took the decision to eliminate her and that Steyn and Taylor just executed it and they just agreed because you were the one who had to determine whether she could be an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And if you could determine that she could not be an informer and then her sentence was sealed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, we had that option before we moved, we travelled to Swaziland.

MR MALAN: But you were asked who took the decision to eliminate her and then you said Taylor and Steyn, you knew that she was going to be eliminated, but I want to know from your construction, is it not true that you took that decision because you had the knowledge there whether she could become an informer or not, that was your function?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson, in effect I took that decision.

MR VISSER: With respect, Chairperson, I tried to make it as clear as possible that I was talking about who gave the instruction to go over to the final step, the physical step.  Of course the evidence is clear that before they even had abducted her that this option was on the table, we know that.
	Before I forget, Chairperson, in Volume 2 page 38 is the application of Steyn.  Please excuse me a moment?  On page 38 in paragraph 1 of Steyn's application reference is made to a hand grenade attack on Lieutenant Raju and there's a date in brackets, two dates are below each other, during October 1988 and August 1988, that is wrong.  The month is correct but the year has to be 1986.  With Exhibit A on page 22, the date is given as the 31st July 1986 with regard to Raju and Sukela is given on page 25 as the 17th September.  The dates are totally wrong.  And the same mistake is repeated in Vorster's application, Mr Chairman, on page 98, it's in the middle of the page, that's exactly the same mistake that Steyn made.

CHAIRPERSON: Both in affidavits?

MR MALAN: Both dates have to read 1986?