Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Were young people still staying in the back yard in the rooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They continued, some of them continued staying in the back yard.  I wouldn't be able to state exactly which ones.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall the Asvat funeral in February 1989?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall that you arrived there in the what you called the bus, driven by John Morgan with a number of young men in uniform, tracksuits from the Mandela United Football Club logo emblazon there on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.  And what ultimately happened in fact those were the only decent clothes those children had.  I did not have resources to buy them clothes.

UNKNOWN: So these were the young men who were still staying on your premises, who were still wearing the uniform, who were still moving around as a group and they still accompanied you to various occasions?  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain to us why in July 1988 instructions were given to Attorney Krish Naidoo to bring an urgent application to court regarding a football match which was supposed to have been played between Mandela United Football Club and the UDF trialists?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon, I don't know of that.  I don't recollect what you are talking about.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall there was a football match which had been arranged at the farm or the residence of the Harrisons, I believe it is, Miranda Harris and the film maker I believe he is, do you recall this?  Roger Harris?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly have no recollection of that.

UNKNOWN: Because I have been advised that the counsel who was briefed in that manner, was Mr Dennis Kuny, instructed by Attorney Krish Naidoo.  You were supposed to have played the UDF trialists team at the Delmas trialist team I should call it rather, would that help the matter, the Delmas trialist team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Messrs Popu Molefe, Terror Lekota, Mosh Chikane.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: With hindsight that would have been very nice, I just don't recollect that Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: You don't recollect at all that there was an application plan to court?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, honestly I don't recollect that at all.

UNKNOWN: Well, that happened in July 1988.  All right, so we've got the Club disbanded, but we've still got the youngsters staying in the house, still travelling in a group with you and still wearing the tracksuits as late as at least February 1989.  How long did this state of affairs go on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I wouldn't be able to put any exact date or calendar.

UNKNOWN: At which stage did you become aware that the young people staying at your house were engaged in what some people called, thuggery?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: An incident occurred to my recollection when the Daliwonga students are supposed to have kidnapped two of the boys in the premises.  But I subsequently learnt of that much, much later.

UNKNOWN: You initially in your Section 29 inquiry advised us that you weren't aware of the origin of what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee?  Do you still maintain that position?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, there may have been a misunderstanding on the particular wording.  I tried to explain here that the leaders who came after the banning of the house, the leaders who came to Diepkloof were not coming there as the Crisis Committee, that is why we see the Rev Bangulas were not part of that Committee.
 And what had happened thereafter was in fact that during that period, the Crisis Committee acquired another stature which was now supposed to be in conflict with the Mandela family.
 And there was no Crisis Committee formed to deal with the problems of the Mandela family in that regard, in relation to the boys, in relation to the death of Stompie.
 The Crisis Committee which was dubbed, a Crisis Committee by the media, was a group of those leaders, community leaders.

UNKNOWN: We will come back to the Stompie issue.  We are still busy now with the burning of the house in Orlando West.  This happened in July 1988?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that may be correct.

UNKNOWN: Did people come to you under the coordination of Rev Frank Chikane, we are talking specifically about the people you saw here, Mr Sydney Mufamadi, Mr Aubrey Makoena, Mr (indistinct) and Dominee Beyers Naude.  Did they come and see you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You mean in Diepkloof?

UNKNOWN: No, wherever you were staying after your house was burnt down?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, they came to see us in Diepkloof.

UNKNOWN: Did they help you and assist you in rebuilding your house in Orlando West?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That process had started immediately after we left Orlando.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware that they asked you, having investigated the matter and interviewed people from Daliwonga, to arrange for the boys not to live on your premises any longer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I understand there were such efforts.  I could not have a direct recollection of those events which happened at the time.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall that they asked you to move the boys off the premises because of the activities that the boys were engaged in?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They requested us to remove the boys, there was no alternative accommodation to my recollection, which was arranged by Aubrey Makoena or Sydney, for that matter.

UNKNOWN: Our advice is they were willing to find alternative arrangements, and one of the reasons that you refused, and this is what they stated here as well as in their written report, a copy of which we gave to your counsel, that one of the reasons that you refused to do that was that you felt you needed them for security purposes?  In other words as a bodyguard?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that was ridiculous Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So what reason did you give them for refusing to remove them from your premises?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It wasn't an actual removal.  They themselves did not state that they provided any alternative accommodation.  That process in fact just fell along the way if I remember correctly.
 There were no serious efforts to place these boys in any particular accommodation elsewhere.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell me why Mr Nelson Mandela, in your visit to him at Pollsmoor, asked you I believe you said it was in 1987 if I am not mistaken, to disband the Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, he had heard the same rumours.  He had heard the same perceptions I understood from him, and he was very concerned about what he was hearing, not from me, about the Club.

UNKNOWN: So in effect when you say that the Club was disbanded, it wasn't disbanded?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was disbanded to my knowledge.  What happened was that the boys continued to wear the uniforms.

UNKNOWN: The same youngsters are staying there, you have told us the Club was more than just a Club of people playing soccer, they are still staying on your premises.  In 1987 Mr Nelson Mandela asked you to disband the Club, you say you have disbanded the Club.  In July 1988 because of the Club's activities, your house is burnt down.  On what basis can you say that the Club was disbanded?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The Club which played matches was disbanded.  That did not stop new youths coming in and out of the yard and no one could vouch that the same youths who are supposed to have done those things in 1988, were necessarily the same youths who were there in 1987.
 The youths were in and out of my house.

UNKNOWN: Did you have no control over your premises?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There was no need to control that.  They led their own lives at the back and I had my own problems to deal with.