Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, I am happy to say that Mr Moleshe has arrived.  His application appears at pages 30 to 36 of the bundle of paginated papers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: (sworn states)

MR OBOSE: You are a member of the South African Police Services, is that so?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: What rank?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I am an inspector.

MR OBOSE: During March 1994 what rank were you holding?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I was a sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Stationed where?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: At the police college.

MR OBOSE: There was a meeting there on the 22nd March 1993, is that correct, at the Bisho police college?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend this meeting?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, I attended it but not when it started.

MR OBOSE: Which category of policemen were to have attended this meeting, initially?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: The police that were not saluted.

MR OBOSE: What time roughly did you get to the place where the meeting was held?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I arrived in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: How did you get to know that you had to attend the meeting?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I was busy at the college with students and then I heard people singing.  I then went to the hall.

MR OBOSE: What type of song?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: They were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: And you were attracted to this meeting because freedom songs were sung?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I was supposed to be there at the meeting but because I was busy - I then joined whilst they were singing.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in this singing freedom songs?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: In what other manner, if any, did you participate in this meeting?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: As the time goes by, while we were discussing, I was chosen to be one of the people who were to fetch Superintendent Sawuti.

MR OBOSE: Did you go?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you find Superintendent Sawuti?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is so.

MR OBOSE: Where?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: At his house.

MR OBOSE: Roughly what time was this?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Because I didn't have a watch, but it was dark, I think it was in the middle of the night, but I'm not sure about the time.

MR OBOSE: Was he happy to come along with you?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, after we have explained to him why we needed him, he said he was going to go with us.  He was going to dress up and then he did that and we all left.

MR OBOSE: And you took him to Bisho police college?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did he remain there until the early hours of the next morning?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, he was there as the night went by.

MR OBOSE: And yourself?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I was also there.

MR OBOSE: And the next morning, did you also proceed to Bisho stadium?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct, I went to the stadium.

MR OBOSE: Did you at any stage get to hear about Gqozo's resignation?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, in the middle of the night we heard that Gqozo had resigned.

MR OBOSE: And why did the meeting continue?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Because Gqozo had resigned and it was during the night and then we heard that Gqozo was supposed to address people in the stadium, telling them that he had resigned.  So when we heard that he had resigned it was during the night and there were other issues that came up whilst we were still discussing amongst our officers, that is why we were there for the whole night, until the next morning.

MR OBOSE: It has been stated that police were armed, some with R5 assault rifles, is that so?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is so.

MR OBOSE: Do you know why?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: It is because we heard that we were going to be forced to leave the premises, the college hall, and then the boers would come and force us to leave the hall, so we decided to arm.

MR OBOSE: So you intended defending yourself in the event of people forcefully removing you from the hall?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Nompozolo any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct Mr Moleshe that by the time you fetched Mr Sawuti from his house, you already knew that Gqozo had resigned?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: When we went to fetch Mr Sawuti we didn't know that Gqozo had resigned.  I didn't know at the time that Gqozo had resigned.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When Mr Sawuti was fetched, is it not correct that you were in company of Tyali?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was it not announced by Nkwenkwe that Brig Gqozo had resigned before you left to fetch Mr Sawuti?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I wouldn't dispute that but what happened on that day, you wouldn't be in the hall the whole time, we were around the camp.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What kind of firearm were you carrying when you went to fetch Mr Sawuti?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I had a side arm, a 9mm pistol.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was there anyone who was carrying the big firearms like R4, R5 in your company?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I wouldn't be sure, but in that car that I was in I didn't see any person with the big firearm, because there were two cars that went there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The aim of fetching Mr Sawuti was not to unseat Brig Gqozo, am I correct?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: The aim of collecting all the officers, we wanted them to be in the hall because we had regarded them as the people who were close to Brig Gqozo and everything that was not right, that was happening at the police service, Gqozo would be on their side.  So we had to take the officers to put them in the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you know that the purpose of the meeting was to unseat Brig Gqozo?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I didn't know at first because I arrived late in the meeting.  I arrived when the people were singing freedom songs, that's when I arrived.  I didn't know what happened in order to be that meeting, but when I arrived people were singing freedom songs and they were also shouting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At the - when exactly did you get to know that the purpose was to unseat Brig Gqozo?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Whilst I was still in the hall people singing freedom songs, I could hear the police shouting saying that they wanted him to be removed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, is it correct that Mr Sawuti was kidnapped from his home by yourselves?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Sawuti was taken by us from his home.

MR NOMPOZOLO: He was not kidnapped?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: We took him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You took him forcefully against his will.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: At that time there was not need to use force because why, when we told him that he was needed at the hall he asked who was in the hall.  We told him that the commissioners and the officers were there, so he told us that he was going to dress up and then we didn't take him by force to the car.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I will refer you to your application page 31
section 9, sub-section (a) (i) Acts, Omissions or Offences :  
		"Kidnapping and Mutiny in contravention section 3 
		 (a) and 3 (b) of Schedule 3 of the Police Act of 
1983."
Now, to whom were you referring to by saying kidnapping on your application?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I was referring to Sawuti, the one I took from his home, because he laid a charge that I took him against his will.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So when you made the application - when you applied for amnesty on the written form, you indicated that you want amnesty for kidnapping.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And that is consistent with what Sawuti instructed me to say, that you kidnapped him from his home.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I can say it is so if he says that we kidnapped him because we took him from his house, but we didn't force him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to him you were so aggressive.