Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The nature of the information from various sources was that Mr Mthimkhulu had said that he would avenge himself on the security police and he indicated that attempts were being made to kill certain members of the South African police.

MR BOOYENS: Could we possibly here just identify the primary person involved with investigating Mr Mthimkhulu?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I know, it was Mr Niewoudt.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the rest of your statement on page 9?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: Because of the threat against the police or the threatening danger in which Black policemen found themselves, what was their reaction?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: They were frightened, some of them were frightened and there was panic among them in general, particularly with regard to their own lives but also their families lives and safety.

MR BOOYENS: You heard Mr Erasmus's testimony regarding the discussions and the eventual decision that the two deceased had to be eliminated?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You also then confirm that which is stated in page 10, second paragraph?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: After the order had been given, is it correct that you decided to involve Mr Niewoudt in planning and executing the murder?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Captain du Plessis decided that Mr Niewoudt had to be part of the plan.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.   The modus operandi which was decided upon and I'm going to summarise what you say from the bottom of page 10 onwards.  Did you decide on the modus operandi of abducting these people?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: To take them away to an isolated place where they would not be easily traced, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: They would be killed?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And their corpses would be burnt?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Was the decision also taken with regard to the motor vehicle and that is the vehicle of Mr Madaka, would be left close to the Lesotho border in order to create the impression that they had left the country?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: As far as the activities are concerned - just to summarise while we have reached this point, you have heard the testimony of General Erasmus what you had conveyed to him regarding the activities of both these people, do you confirm that as correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do confirm that as correct.

MR BOOYENS: Let us now continue with the execution of the plan on page 11.  On 14 April 1982, you planned to carry into effect the operation?  On 14 April - in other words, the operation would start?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And were these two people abducted by Mr du Plessis and Mr Niewoudt - as far as you were informed, in Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Were you then informed by Captain du Plessis that they had indeed abducted these people that evening?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is not silence in the hall we will have the hall cleared, will you kindly remember that.

MR BOOYENS: Sorry, I've lost the thread of my argument.  You were telephonically informed that the abduction had been successful, is that correct - as stated in your application?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And were du Plessis Niewoudt and the two deceased then joined by you in Algoa Park?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well I joined them yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you and Mr du Plessis together with the two deceased go to Cradock in Mr du Plessis vehicle and Mr Niewoudt followed you in Madaka's vehicle?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then near Cradock, there is a disused ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens sorry, before we go on - I don't know if your knowledge of Port Elizabeth's geography is better than mine, is Algoa Park in Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It is a suburb Sir.

MR BOOYENS: I didn't try to venture there either Mr Chairman, I didn't know.
	Did you then go to a disused police station at Post Chalmers in the Cradock area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Once again for the information of those of us who don't know the Eastern Cape that well, how far is Cradock more or less from Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If I have to make a rough estimate, approximately 300 kilometres.

MR BOOYENS: And do you have to go through Post Chalmers to get to Cradock?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well, I would say it is approximately North West, I'm not geographically that well informed but it's on the road between Cradock and Graaff Reinet but that road again joins the road that links Middelburg with Graaff Reinet, so towards New Bethesda I would say.

MR BOOYENS: There is - this may be an appropriate time to - I understand it is before you and it is in fact indicated on the left hand side of Cradock on the map before you.  If I may ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's marked "A"?

MR BOOYENS: Yes.
	Post Chalmers was ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Could we perhaps refer to this as bundle E?

MR BOOYENS: Certainly Mr Chairman.
	In bundle E we have photographs of what it looks like at Post Chalmers now - well we see that there's a Post Chalmers holiday farm on some of the photographs that wasn't there at that stage, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: As far as the rest is concerned, it was then a disused police station, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Was it upon certain occasions used by the security branch members as a safe house or for investigations etc., questioning people?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Is it a relatively sparsely populated area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is true.

MR BOOYENS: There are no farm labourers or farm houses in the immediate environment area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And was the plan to eliminate the two deceased there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You arrived there that evening, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And it was quite late, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Were the two deceased then kept there that evening and into the following day?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then the next evening at approximately 22H00, somebody - you don't know who, gave drinks to the deceased and they fell asleep, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: During the day and that evening, did you collect branches and tree trunks?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you and Warrant Officer Niewoudt after that, enter the house?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you carry the two sleeping deceased outside?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then shoot Siphiwe Mthimkhulu?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And the Warrant Officer for Topsi Madaka?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What did you do with the corpses after this?