Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-25

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a short adjournment.  What is his name?

MR MAPOMA: It is Jonathan Hobbs.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Hobbs arrives, would you direct him to the Committee then?   For those who are ready to argue the matter, I gather that there will be heads of argument which would be prepared and submitted within a matter of five days, okay.
	There are just a couple of matters that I want to raise in regard to each of the applicants, which the applicants would be so kind enough so as to address.  Make sure that amongst other things, they address this point.  
	Beginning with Mr Dandala, we would like to hear argument as to whether his application demonstrates a political motive in light of his statement that he took part in the shooting out of fear that if he did not take part in the shooting, the Askaris may come back and kill him.
	The question that we want to raise in that regard is whether, does that, does his evidence not suggest a personal consideration?
	In regard to Mr Tshabalala, we would like to hear argument in particular as to whether there was any political motive in light of his statement that all he did was to shoot in order to apprehend a person who was fleeing from lawful custody, that separates the question as to whether the conduct amounted to any offence.
	In regard to Mr De Kock, we would like to hear argument as to whether there was full disclosure in light of his inability to provide the Committee with the details as to how he went about changing the identity of Mr Tshabalala.
	These are some of the aspects which we would like to be addressed.  
	Is there anyone who wants to raise anything?  Okay, I noticed that Mr Hobbs is here.  Come up.  When you left here, you indicated that you were going to take instructions.

MR HOBBS: Indeed Mr Chairman, I am indebted to the Committee for allowing me time to do so.
	May I use this opportunity to inform you that the prospective witness Matanzima that on his behalf, proceedings will be instituted today seeking urgent interim relief pending a review and or appeal of the Committee's decision to require his testimony here. Such papers are in the process of preparation.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you suggesting?

MR HOBBS: Well Mr Chairman, we hope to have the papers served upon you in the course of the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not going to sit here and wait for him, wait for those papers.

MR HOBBS: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying we have come to the conclusion of the evidence now.  The only matter that is outstanding is your client, whose name was called out and he was not in attendance and we have been informed by the Evidence Leader that proceedings, that the Commission will take steps to deal with him for failure to obey the subpoena.

MR HOBBS: Yes Mr Chairman, on that point I can but contend that in view of the fact that I was given leave to take further instructions, that it implied that I could do so with some, at some convenience and with some ...

CHAIRPERSON: Provided that you treat this Committee with respect, you don't just go away and don't tell us when you are going to come back.  At least you would have had the courtesy to indicate when you are going to come back.  I suppose that is a matter that you will have to take up with the Evidence Leader.
	Is the position that - Mr Dukada it seems to us that in view of the attitude by Mr Matanzima, that he would like to contest the ruling of this Committee and the fact that the victims insist that he must appear, and also in light of what Mr Mapoma has informed us, as to the steps that the Commission intend taking against Mr Matanzima for failing to comply with the subpoena, it seems to us that the question of whether Mr Matanzima should come ought to stand over until it has been resolved by the Court, whereafter the fate of this application will then be decided.

MR DUKADA: I take your point Mr Chairperson, I have no further submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it the proper course to follow though?

MR DUKADA: Yes, I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: What do the other legal representatives say?  Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, as I have indicated, it has no bearing on our situation whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it has a bearing indirect in the sense that once the applicant has made an application for amnesty, he is entitled to a decision, so the effect of this is that it will delay the decision.  That is the indirect fact.

MR HUGO: That is unfortunate as far as the applicant is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that until such time that the question of Mr Matanzima's appearance before this Committee has been resolved by the Court, these proceedings cannot be concluded.

MR HUGO: I tend to agree with you with respect Mr Chairman, I think that is the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, I agree with what you are saying.  There is no prejudice to my applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR DILIZO: Mr Chairman, I also agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: (No microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.  Okay, very well.  Mr Zuko Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you Chairperson, I think that is the proper one, I mean that is the best course that we can take, I accept.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  In view of the developments in this matter which I have just outlined, it has become necessary to adjourn these proceedings to a date to be arranged. It is unfortunate that this has to occur, but Mr Matanzima is exercising his rights and the Committee will have to await the final resolution of this matter by the Courts, whereupon these proceedings will proceed further.
	It now remains for me to thank all the legal representatives for the manner in which they have conducted themselves, the families of the deceased and the members of the public, for their co-operation and when we had to loose time because of the lack of currency, the Interpreters who have had to do their job, the caterers, the media and everyone who has co-operated in ensuring that these proceedings run smoothly.  I also want to thank the members of this Committee for their assistance.  Is there any matter that ...

MR MAPOMA: There is no other matter Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the Committee will rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS