Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As I mentioned, the purpose of my unit there was partly also to act as a security and also to be engage the enemy, meaning to attack any house whilst the other unit was attacking and due to the fact that it was very dark and the incident happened a very long time ago and that the person have been in quarantine for quite a period of time in prison so I did, I couldn't say from a human factor that well, exactly what happened to that house but what I knew is that we didn't have the Malatov, by Malatov I mean petrol bombs and then secondly we didn't throw any grenades.  What we just did there was to just to fire with the guns which we were wielding.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You heard Mrs Pienaar say that, you know, she denies that that ever happened, that that third house that you refer to, that that house was ever attacked on that night?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well I'm not here to argue with her on that.  Maybe she also denied that we did also launch a grenade launch.

MS PATEL: When you got to that specific area, that street, was any specific reconnoitring done on that evening before the attack was launched again?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: During the day, myself I was stationed with two other guys and then the other will come and go so I'm not aware of whether I was there in the reconnaissance during that time but from the information I had was that reconnaissance was done days before the attack so exactly that day he was there in the reconnaissance, I'm not aware.

MS PATEL: Okay, so you say did Mtate tell you that they reconnoitred the place days before the attacks?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MS PATEL: What else did he tell you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Like what?

MS PATEL: In terms of the specifics of the reconnoitring or what did they see?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As I mentioned that we will go - okay there was a specific route we had to use, to infiltrate the enemy and the road to ex-filtrate from the enemy, then that was part of the briefing also or part of the reconnaissance that they did.  I was informed of it.

MS PATEL: I'm asking did Mtate tell you what they specifically saw in that street when they were reconnoitring?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He told me that those houses around that side of South Africa were houses occupied by security personnel meaning that maybe there are SAP people there or SADF members there and also other security people.

MS PATEL: Can you recall whether he would have told you that those security persons were in fact seen in that street when they were reconnoitring a few days beforehand?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I take it he knew the area better than me and he would be of help to answer that but from my side I said he did have information up to such a length of knowing that really there were security personnel around that area.

MS PATEL: When you were there that evening of the attack did you see any military personnel or security police in that street in that evening?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well the time that we retreated there was a return fire from an automatic gun.

MS PATEL: Can you tell ...[intervention]

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: From one of the houses there, that's when we decided to launch a grenade launch.  There was a return fire from an automatic gun.

MS PATEL: Was it closer to the third house that you refer to that you attacked?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think so, I think it was very close from the houses which we were attacking and after I launched a grenade launch there was nothing after that, there was no return fire and that was then we decided to cross the river.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you just to give us an indication in terms of the area, how far from the houses were you when you launched the grenade?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was at the bridge from the road, I take it you know the bridge from the road?

MS PATEL: No, I've never been to the area.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: From the bridge to the houses I think it will be plus minus 250 metres, plus minus.

MS PATEL: So it's quite a distance?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's quite a distance but from a grenade launch it's effective to stand from 300.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Alright, just to move off that incident to the Dunside Farm attack.  Can you tell us, was there any reason specifically why that specific farm was chosen or was it just that it was a farm and it was armed by a White person?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well we don't need any specific reasons to attack White farmers as they were part and parcel of these Commando structures and who also occupied our land.  Our mission politically was to drive them out of those farms then militarily it means we have to execute them in such attacks, by attacking them so there was no specific reason but from the military point of view, when you did an operation, you go for reconnaissance then you have to hit the enemy where he relaxes, you have to take the enemy by surprise.  So as I mentioned that prior the day of the attack there was a media statement from the Minister of Defence or the Minister of Police during that time who uttered such a statement that there will be no more other attacks against farmers, specifically in that area so we carry out the operation to show the enemy that we can do, we can continue with the armed struggle, nothing will stop us and secondly, if we were to carry out such operations in such a situation, we then have to go and look for targets, of which we will see them as will be very effective for such an operation and then it will be easy for us to carry out such attacks so that was then we come across such a farm.

MS PATEL: Okay and you stated that the decision to attack this farm was taken by yourself?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I did take it myself.  As a commander, yes I had the authority to do so.

MS PATEL: Okay, you say that you were assisted by Roger and Jabu, is this the same Roger and Jabu who were members of Mtate's unit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes they were based there at Lesotho.

MS PATEL: Okay so how was it possible for you to make a decision on your own to attack this farm if you were still based in Mtate's area of command?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well Mtate at that time was not around, I think he was at Sterkspruit and I think he was arrested there at Sterkspruit so I was the one who had to take over because I acted as his second in command.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question to clarify, Mr Dolo.  The house which is mentioned in the first incident, the 143 3rd Street which you say Mr Mtate attacked.  Do you know why that particular house was singled out for the attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I will say maybe because it was part of the route we took, that it was the first house maybe we come across because whilst I was leading the advance I was disturbed by dogs in that area then I have to keep on dodging from dogs because they were advancing on me so we added up, have to pass to that house and when they were coming back they decided to maybe attack that one.  Further information get it from him why specifically he attacked that one.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may for the record confirm that it is in fact the first house in that section.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolo, to just get perhaps a clearer picture, of your authority as a commander of an Apla unit, do I understand the position correctly, at that time did your organisation have a specific general policy or approach towards security forces, White farmers, these categories of people that you've referred to in the sense that they were regarded as legitimate targets for attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For your struggle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when it comes to the specific target, what was the authority of the commander.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: You mean the one which is mentioned, the houses which was attacked?