Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

MR LAX: Well then, you said you didn't know the other people in the group because they came from another place.  That implies you saw them.  Why are you giving us that impression if you didn't see them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not know their names but they came from different areas.

MR LAX: Yes, you won't explain your answer, I'm just pointing it out to you.  The information that you had you say came from people that were questioned before they were killed, is that right?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And you would ask them who else was living at the hostel, is that right?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: That is not you personally, but other people who then informed you, correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now how does the fact that somebody is living at the hostel make them a spy?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They resided in the township, they knew the situation within the township, they knew who took part in activities at that time, now they gave the names of these people, they gave the names of those people who were looking for the members of the IFP.

MR LAX: But you see then you must explain your previous evidence.  You didn't see this woman around from 1990, the violence only started in July 1990, that's common cause, after the rally at Zone 7.  Everybody knows that.  You didn't see her in the township, so how could she have known who had got involved if she wasn't there?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: She disappeared, she got captured by the comrades, lashes at the offices of the ANC, she spent a few months at home and she disappeared again.

MR LAX: So are you saying that in the time that she was in the township she picked up enough information as a spy to then go and tell everybody at Madala about what was going on?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think so because she used to attend meetings of the ANC as well, giving an impression that she is not going back.  Now this is during the time when she was gathering information.  And when she disappeared, that was forever, we never saw her again.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you when she disappeared, she disappeared forever, you never saw her again?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I'm saying she lived in the township and they were warned for their activities and their party.  After that she attended meetings of the ANC, giving an impression that she has forgotten about the activities of the IFP, and she disappeared again from the township.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) but  not that she disappeared and never came back again.  Are you not trying to tell us that she would disappear periodically from time to time?  She would be around the township and you would then not see her for some few months and she would come back and you would not see her after that for some few months and she would come back, stay for some other few months, is that not evidence that you are trying to give to us?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was trying to give the evidence that after these months that she spent in the township she disappeared and I never saw her in the township, she disappeared ever since.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you last see her in the township?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That was after they were left at the offices of the ANC.  I would not specify the time, I think it was around 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know, I'm getting a little confused with your evidence, either you do not understand our line of questioning or things are not translated to you the way you can comprehend them easily or for some other reason, because when I questioned you earlier on to find out when you last saw Ms Ndumo, your evidence was you saw her two moths prior, the last time you saw her was two months prior the 15th of August 1993, being the occasion when she got killed.  That's what I understood to be your evidence, and I understood you to be saying that she would disappear from time to time and when she did disappear you would assume that she was with the IFP.  That's I understood your evidence.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I did not mention that I saw her two months prior to her death, I said I saw her a few months after they were given lashes.  She spent a few months in the township attending meetings of the ANC and she disappeared again.  Not that I saw her prior to the killing.

CHAIRPERSON: When this incident occurred on the 15th of August 1993 you had not seen her for a long, long time, almost a year.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
	Now this chap Skhalo that you mentioned, you said he lived in some shack area called Eating Site, is that right?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And he was regularly in your company at that time.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He was my friend before he joined.  Even after he joined he would come to the township and show us the membership card of IFP, trying to convince us into joining with him.

MR LAX: Yes, when was that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was 1990 or 1991.

MR LAX: At the time he was trying to convince you to join, had the violence already started?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, it had not started.

MR LAX: So it must have been before July 1990?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think so.

MR LAX: And he told you that these two ladies were members of the IFP already then, that's your evidence.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, but he did not only mention the two of them, it was a group.

MR LAX: Well who else did he mention?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Do you need their names?

MR LAX: Yes.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Sesi was their friend, Meme, these are the ones I knew.

MR LAX: So Sesi, Meme, Elsie and Hapile?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And how did he arrive at this conclusion that they were IFP members?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I heard from the other comrades and from Skhalo and I full knowledge that they were members of the IFP.

MR LAX: The question was, how did he, Skhalo, arrive at this conclusion?  What evidence did he tell you to base this upon?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Skhalo was a member of the IFP and they lived together at Eating Site.  He told me that they were recruited there in their living area.

MR LAX: So are you saying that the deceased at that point that Skhalo told you that, was already living with IFP people at Eating Site?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: She lived in Eating Site, coming back home, living in Eating Site, frequenting.

MR LAX: You see, just now I asked you to tell me other IFP camps that this person was seen at, you couldn't tell me any others.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It must have been the slip of the tongue.  When I mentioned the hotel, it was part of the camps and I mentioned the hostel.  I was actually generalising.

MR LAX: Where did you get your training as an SDU member?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: In Sebokeng.

MR LAX: What sort of training did you get?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was trained in the use of firearms and I got physical training, and I was given political training, I attended political classes.

MR LAX: What firearms were you trained in?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was trained with a 9mm.

MR LAX: That's it?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: And the pumpgun.

MR LAX: Anything else?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: AK47.

MR LAX: Ja?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That's all.

MR LAX: You said in your evidence that the decision to kill these people was taken there next to the tavern once Elsie started arguing.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Why didn't you kill Hapile then at that stage?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We did not have ammunition, we only had two bullets and they were in John Radebe's firearm.  He saw it fit to finish off with this one who was arguing and leave with this other one, obtain ammunition and finish the job.

MR LAX: Didn't some of you have knives?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.