Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: Using a pair of pliers on the private parts of a person is such an atrocious thing that I would have thought that you would be in a position to remember whether they did use it or not.  I mean before you did that you probably had to remove their clothes, at least their pair of trousers?  It's not a casual exercise to press somebody's private parts with a pair of pliers.  It's not like touching somebody on his forehead with your finger, you've got to remove his pair of trousers to reach his private parts and to open up his thighs.  Now you're saying you don't remember if those things happened.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I admit that I used a pair of pliers.  I didn't mention yesterday and this morning, but now I
admit.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other people, you say you don't remember whether they used it, is that what you're saying?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the other applicant, Hlasa, use it to your knowledge, Mr Hlasa?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Hlasa was not a part of the people who interrogated.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I may ask you, (indistinct) and when you applied or tortured them in that way by means of pliers to their genitals, did they not scream?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember well that they screamed or not.  They might have screamed because a pair of pliers would put more pain.

ADV SIGODI: When you were using this pair of pliers, did you remove their trousers?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I don't remember whether I applied it on top of the trousers or whether the trousers were put down, but it was used.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng yesterday I got the impression that you were just in the one room all the time.  Do you now also admit that you had moved between the two rooms?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The explanation that I gave before the committee yesterday was that for the better part of the interrogation I was in the other room.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Sorry I just want to get clarity, but you also did go to the, on occasion during the interrogation to the room where the other three boys were.  Are you admitting to the statement put to you by Mr Ameen?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I explained that for the better part of the day I was in this room, but there is such a possibility that I went into the other room.

MR MALAN: Can you remember that you did go into the other room or can't you remember it at all?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember.

MR MALAN: Why do you remember that for the better part you were in this specific room.  The other parts, where were you then if you remember that only for the better part and not for the full duration of the interrogation, you were in the specific one room.  Where would you have been for the lesser or worse parts, in which room?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember spending enough, a lot of time in the room where I was.

MR MALAN: Can you recall ever having left that room during the day, during the interrogation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, I used to go outside or to the kitchen.

MR MALAN: For what purpose?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: To stretch my legs or even drink water.

MR MALAN: Can you recall that you went out to drink water?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I said perhaps I went out for the purpose of drinking water or stretching my legs, I do not remember specifically whether I went out to drink water.

MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng I think it's time you start answering the questions, I asked you the question whether you can remember, whether you had at any stage during the interrogation left the room.  I think you said then yes you did on occasion leave the room, you can recall that.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I'll put it that way Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Yes, in other words you did leave the room, you weren't there full time during the interrogation, in that one room for the whole of the afternoon?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I am saying for the better part of the day I was in the interrogation room but there were moments where I briefly went out and went back to the room.

MR MALAN: Now those moments that you briefly went out, can you recall them?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember sir.

MR MALAN: How do you know that you were outside, why do you say that you were out?  You say that clearly without qualification, when I ask you about them you say you don't remember them.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not recall how many times I went out but the important point is yes, I went out but how many times I do not remember.

MR MALAN: Can you remember any single time that you went out for any specific purpose?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: At one stage I remember I went outside, I mean completely outside to get fresh air and thereafter I went back, it was also for stretching my legs.

MR MALAN: Do you remember another time, for another purpose?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is the reason I remember why I went outside.

MR MALAN: Yes on this one occasion, I'm asking you can you remember any other single occasion that you left because you say you left on a number of occasions?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember that occasion Chairperson, only that occasion.

MR MALAN: You also remembered earlier that you went to the kitchen.  Did you not say that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes I said that.

MR MALAN: So now you remember two occasions, one to go outside and once to go to the kitchen?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The first time I went to the kitchen and as time went on I went outside to stretch my legs.

MR MALAN: Can you recall that you ever went into the other room where the other people were being interrogated?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember well whether I got into that room but there is such a possibility that I did go into that room.

MR MALAN: I'm not asking you about the possibilities Mr Mphoreng, I'm asking you about your memory.  If you think back can you remember, even if vaguely, that during that afternoon that you also went into the other room, either to look into the other room or to participate in the assaults?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember that it happened sir.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng on how many people did you use the pliers?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I used it on one person.

ADV BOSMAN: And was that on Oscar?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now can you explain how these people in the other room knew that you'd used the pliers, because they are the ones who came up with it today.  How did they come to know about it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Can you repeat your question, I do not quite understand it?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng you say you only used the pliers on Oscar in the room where you were in and today the two survivors said that you had used the pliers and they were in the other room.  Is that correct?  Do you agree?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: What I remember very well is that I was with Oscar in the room and other SOSCO comrades.  I do not recall their faces at all.  According to some of the issues that came out during the cross examination it came up that those who were with me in the room all died, that is why I remembered that, yes I used a pair of pliers and I used it on Oscar.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is, how did the two survivors know if you had not been in their room with the pliers, in the other room with the pliers.  How did they know about the pliers that you had used.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I don't know how they came to know about that.

MR MALAN: Sorry Chair, I know you'd want to go for a break.  You say ... (intervention)