Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-15

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: The Belgian Security Police.  You see they tricked us into not making a lot of noise about the hit squad which was still at that time in Belgian.  We listened to what the Belgian Security Police told us, you know, and we did not issue any press releases or anything and yet this was when they were giving these people time to get out of the country.  These matters were raised in the Belgian Parliament, they were raised in the newspapers.  A lot of Belgian investigative journalists, you know, wrote articles
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corroborating, you know, that there was tardiness on the part of the Belgian Security Police on these issues.  So that is why they were able to operate.  How did they, for instance, how did they manage to bring a 17 kilogram bomb into Belgian?  How were they able to bring these guns and, incidentally, the ballistic test showed that the gun that they used, you know, to shoot at me, it was a Russian made Markroff.  So immediately, you know, somebody leaked to the media that this was one faction of the ANC fighting against another faction because the ANC were the ones who are using Russian made, you know, guns and ammunition.  This was all, you know, part of the ploy by these right wingers, you know, to denigrate us.

RUSSELL ALLY: And your own security and the security of other people like yourself in Europe, how was that provided or was there security?  Was the host country responsible or did you provide your own security?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: You see that also is another reason why, you know, I think that there was a lot of collusion between some Belgian authorities and the hit squads because we had tried to bring in our security people from Lusaka and they were not given permission to come in.  I, myself, had applied, you know, to the Belgian authorities to have a weapon for self-defence.  They would not allow me.  So you see, I mean, they had put us in a very, very invidious position.  They had made it impossible for us, you know, to defend ourselves, but they allowed these people to come in, you know, with weapons, to move freely inside the country which is what we could not understand.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just one last question.  You speak about this person who you mention at one stage being in the embassy,
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South African Embassy, in London and being forced to leave 
there.  What are your observations about the role of the embassies in all of this?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Well I must say, at the time, the role of embassy was far from being, you know, a diplomatic embassy.  This was, I mean, these embassies were like dents of iniquity.  They had all sorts of characters whose job descriptions, you know, you could not make up what they were for.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Hugh.

MR LEWIN: Mr Motsepe, if I could just continue along those lines and ask from your perspective now, as a member of Foreign Affairs in the new South Africa.  I just want to confirm firstly about the legitimacy in European countries of activities like that.  Was it completely against the Law there or it recognised activity by embassy officials?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: No, it was completely against the Law.  That is why very serious questions were asked in the Belgian Parliament, for instance.  There were very, very heated debates as to how could the Belgian authorities allow, you know, their territorial sovereignty to be trample over, you know, by foreign hit squads.  How could they have been allowed to bring in weapons into the country?  There were really, I mean, you know, there were very, very, very serious debates going on concerning this issue.  It was totally against Belgian Laws.

MR LEWIN: And I believe, for instance, against Swiss Law,  the same thing happened.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Yes and in French Laws also.  The same thing happened.
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MR LEWIN: Where would the authority for that sort of activity have come from knowing, as you do, the workings of the Civil Service?  Where would authorities for that, would it have come from Foreign Affairs or would it come from somewhere else?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: I think it would have come from somewhere else.  I do not think that, you know, the Foreign Service, as far as far as I can tell now that I am inside, as a Director, I do not think that they have the authority to issue that kind of command to anybody.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Motsepe, it is a rare opportunity to have you here and to ask questions.  Can I take you on completely another track?  As you know the Act under which we work today also asks of the Commission to prepare proposals for the President, through the President to Parliament on  reparation and rehabilitation.  Moving away from the question of monetary compensation we do think that there is also room for symbolic acts like monuments or days of remembrance or any other way of alternative reparation.  Do you have ideas on that?  Have you given that some thought?  The possibility of a monument or whatever which you would like to share us.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Yes, I think some kind of institutions should be built around the country for the victims of apartheid where counselling should be given to them and where, perhaps, even some form of therapy should be given because I must tell you it is a really traumatic experience.  I use to wake up in the middle of the night screaming because I could see this man approaching me, shooting at me.  Even today I cannot sit, I cannot sit next to a window.  If I go
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to a restaurant I sit very far away from the window because I just, I cannot.  If I sit next to a window I start, you know, getting serious tremors in my heart.  I start imagining all sorts of things.  I become very, very nervous, I become very anxious.  So I am sure there are a lot of other people who have, perhaps, even suffered far more than I have who would need that therapy, you know, very, very much, you know.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.  I can assure you that we are working very hard on proposals along these lines, providing therapy and getting a support system going for victims and survivors. The question of monuments, from your experience, travelling through Europe.  Has that crossed your mind?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Yes, I have seen, you know, monuments, yes, in Europe especially to the victims of Nazism.  I saw them in many parts of Europe because as an ANC chief representative I travelled quite extensively with some of the leaders or ANC as they were coming around, but I must say, you know, I have not applied myself very seriously to the question of monuments for South Africa.  Perhaps they might be necessary.  I am not sure, you know.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.