Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It is the transfer of leave records  Mr Chairperson.  We would not want to disadvantage Mr Tshabalala and that leave which he had to have, would be transferred to the new file.
	This is what this document deals with.  You will find on top in the right hand corner, there is a budget section.  His leave and financial  implications, that is all part of the budget section.

MR HUGO: Could I just ask you, I see it is signed by Brigadier  Adlam.  Did he have knowledge that there was an identity change and what the reason was therefore?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: He would have known that there was a change here, but he would not have known why.  He would not have been informed to that.

MR HUGO: Can you then page to the following page.  Can you just tell us what that is, it is still part of Exhibit H?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: If I just scan it quickly, it would seem to be an offence committed by Mr Tshabalala and there is a crime register number, and his name would have been changed on this subpoena or on his Departmental records.
	As you find there, Tshabalala was scratched out and Mavusu was written there.

MR HUGO: And at the bottom it says note, it was written in pen there, could you just read that out to us?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The following report to the Commissioner of Police, his surname is Mavusu and not Tshabalala.

MR HUGO: Very well, and then still part of Exhibit H, just the last page.  Can you just tell us what document that is?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is a telex report, report number 44, and it is from the Divisional Commander, Security Border, Colonel  Griebenouw, that would be in Port Elizabeth, where the Divisional Commander would be seated and it is directed to the Commanding Officer, X302 at Pretoria, that would be Brigadier Schoon, who was the Head of C Section, in other words he was the Chief of Section C1, C2 and C3.
	It is marked top secret, and the reason for the top secret label is that the classifications, if I recall correctly, where it deals with external relations or foreign relations with our neighbouring States, or internationally, for instance Europe, but everything was marked top secret.
	The following classification that one would have, was if it dealt with an internal sensitive aspect and would influence internal policy and it would be strictly secret. This would just be secret.
	The following classification would be just secret.  It is not just a stamp that is put there because somebody feels that this is secret.  There is a formula.  I can just not recall all, but that is why that is marked top secret, because it dealt with the Transkei and the Transkei was seen as an Independent State.

MR HUGO: Very well then, would you like to read to us what is written in this telex.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It is hearing, Constable it looks like A.E. Tshabalala, the charge is murder.  Report number 134, dated, I cannot make out the date there, it is paragraph 1, the case is a joint operation between the South African Police and the Transkeian Police, to fight terrorism and there was work between the South African Police and the Transkeian Security Branch.  Gen Kawe requested Colonel Griebenouw to help with the defence in this matter.
	Because above-mentioned member is, it is right to have legal advise and I would like to request what is the possibility to have a senior Advocate to represent both accused.  The matter would be in 1986/09/17 and your finding would be appreciated.  DT would be printed telegraph.

MR HUGO: And then, concerning the incident, could you just complete at the bottom of the page 138 to the top of 139.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The persons responsible for this would be the Minister of Law and Order, the Commissioner of Police, the Security Chief, the Unit Commander and myself in my capacity as Chief of Section C1.
	After the operation was concluded, I reported back to Brigadier Schoon.  I cannot give further information in terms of what happened at the scene in Transkei except for the little information that Lieutenant Adamson gave me.
	I believe that he received that information from the group who was involved in that incident.

MR HUGO: And Mr De Kock, I would just like to ask you a few questions concerning the policy that was applicable at C1.
	Firstly, when members of C1 are deployed to other parts of the country, what is the procedure and how is this handled?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the Divisional Commander of the Eastern Cape, would request in writing or in a print telegram, that members of C1 work in his area, if it is East London or Aliwal North or Elliot, that doesn't matter.
	It comes from the Divisional Commander and it is addressed to C1, Section C1 and C1 is tasked to have a group of persons work in that area and then the Commander of that group, who work in the area where they are requested, would report to the Divisional Commander. 
	For example it would be Colonel Griebenouw, Colonel Griebenouw would appoint an Officer who is responsible for discipline and remuneration of that group of Section C1.  In other words the C1 group serves under the Divisional Commander for the purposes of the receiving instruction and for discipline.

MR HUGO: Can we just be more specific there.  With regard to this particular incident, who requested the members of Vlakplaas to work here?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: If I recall correctly, as far as I can remember it was a request from East London.  We worked in three areas, and I have a recollection that it would be Warrant Officer Dan Naude, who was the Liaison Officer who liaised with this group of mine.
	The other two groups who had an interest in us and that is why we worked from a central point, the reason being it was central to all the areas that we worked and the best accommodation available for a group that we had, was the Security Branch of Queenstown and the Security Branch of Aliwal North.
	And from Barkly, that would be our central point to work wherever, but that was our central point.

MR HUGO: The most important question, or a more important question, the person who asked you to deploy members from Vlakplaas, did they tell you what the purpose of the operation was to be in which these members had to participate?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that would have been mentioned.  But now I don't have a clear recollection of it, but what I do recall is that somebody like Warrant Officer Dan Naude indeed slept over with my people at Barkly East, to give them information and to task them with what he wants done.
	He was there for a week or 14 days.

MR HUGO: Can I ask you in this manner, Lieutenant Dan Naude as it is suggested in some of the statements, he said that we are looking for someone to kill Mr Dandala and do you have - not Mr Dandala, Mr Ndondo, excuse me.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: He couldn't ask us to go and shoot somebody.  If something like that happened, this would be a covert act and he had to take it up with Colonel Griebenouw and Colonel Griebenouw would take it up with Brigadier Schoon.
	But because he was the appointed person in charge, for tasking these people here for the function for which they brought us here, he would be the appointed person, that he knew who were the sources on ground level, he knew who they were looking for.  
	We worked on a national level and it was impossible to remember all names of the people who were being looked for.  In this matter, Warrant Officer Naude would have specific information and he wanted a specific group to go and look for this person.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, you heard that there was testimony with regard to the kombi's that were used, there were two kombi's for the operation.  Where did this kombi's come from?