Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-09

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question ?  Okay, well perhaps we should break now for lunch and then what you can do in the meantime, would you take instructions from your Mr Armoed on what the witness had said and see whether there is anything that Mr Armoed would like to dispute?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: If you would just take the opportunity for the lunch and adjournment to deal with that aspect.  The time is, it's quarter to two, we'll come back at quarter past two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Lekabe, as a member or a leader of the community I'm of the opinion perhaps you can shed some light on this question I'm going to ask you and I've got an impression that both members of the ANC Youth League and members of the SDU were ANC members, am I correct?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MOTATA: The SDU suspected the Youth League of having killed Bulelwa while the Youth League suspected the SDU - am I correct also?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not understand your question are you saying vice versa, the SDU was suspecting the Youth League, the Youth League were suspecting the - I think that's correct.

MR MOTATA: ...[inaudible] also I think if you know you can say but if you don't know you are free to say that.  Oscar says they had an impression that there is some force which is pushing the youth, that's the words he used, he said there are some force whom we think are pushing the youth from behind and at the end under cross-examination he ended by saying "I think the third force was present here."  Now talking about the third force - what is your impression, do you think the third force was there or not?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Oscar is not telling the truth when he says the third force was involved because at the beginning of my evidence I mentioned that we patrolled together up to a point where we separated.  He is not telling the truth when he says the third force was involved.  I do not believe there was any third force involved at all.

MR MOTATA: One of two issues - Oscar also alleged that Mr Buthelezi played double standards, he would be seen with members of the Stability Unit and then sometimes he would be seen with members of the IFP and also that weapons which were used by the Youth League were among others the R1, the pistols used by the police and that at other stage they used to disarm the police.  Your brief reaction to that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I know nothing of such weapons.

MR MOTATA: Has it been seen amongst the Stability Unit and the IFP?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That's a pure lie, I do not believe that Mr Buthelezi would be seen in both organisations - the Internal Stability Unit and the IFP.

MR MOTATA: Apart from their suspicions which were running around, up until today, no one knows who killed Bulelwa, am I correct?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not know, but the allegations put forward now is that the member of the SDU did the act - Oscar, Mthembu are the people who are implicated.

MR MOTATA: Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa do you have any questions?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Did you say Armoed was armed with an AK-47 when they came to pick you up?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It did not work, I looked at him for the sole purpose of identifying him.  He had an AK-47 in his hand.  I took a thorough look at him.

MR MADASA: Armoed denies that he was armed with an AK-47.  He says he was only given AK-47 at the shack when he was asked to guard the youth who had been apprehended.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It is surprising the way he puts his statement.  I explained already that himself and the other one called Movembi tried to shoot at me that time.

MR MADASA: Now you said the community had mandated you or ordered you to run up SDU members and take them to KBA, remember saying that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Now my question is, the community according to you had guarded at C, why were the SDU members going to be taken to KBA?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Where sir?  I want to follow your question thoroughly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well at the gathering which occurred at C Section.  It was decided that members of the SDU would be apprehended and then taken to KBA, is that right?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what counsel is putting to you is that people had gathered at Block C.  There was no one at KBA, why were members of the SDU to be taken to KBA where there would have been no one?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: In my explanation I said we left with members of the community.  Now we were going to apprehend them and leave for KBA.

MR MADASA: Now why did you not take Blanko by force?  According to you you were many when you went to his place - why did you not take him by force, tie him up?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I said this was a very quick meeting, we did not even take anything to tie him up with.  Can I carry on?  He resisted, he made noise.  Now we became aware that he was going to alert the others whom we also wanted.

MR MADASA: Now you were told by the community to go to Blanko to apprehend him.  Was there a report back done to the community as to what transpired at Blanko?

CHAIRPERSON: Where at KBA?

MR MADASA: At KBA yes or at C.  At KBA or at C was a report back done?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I said when we left Blanko's place it was a shoot out, we didn't manage to go to KBA.

MR MADASA: Now, amongst other things you were supposed to do according to the community's order was to apprehend and disarm.  Did you bring any arms from Blanko's place?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: We did not get guns.

MR MADASA: Did you take the spears?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not remember whether they were taken by those who were with me.

MR MADASA: Now how many people shot Blanko?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: We were three, I believe so because the others were armed with 9mm shots.

MR MADASA: Who are the other two who fired at him?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: The other one has since died, his name is Thabo.

MR MADASA: What did he have?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I have just said that he had a shot gun.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible]

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: The other one?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: The other one had a revolver.

MR MADASA: You do not know the name of that one?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not remember his name, sir.

MR MADASA: Was Thabo a Youth League member?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: No, he was just a member of the community.

MR MADASA: The other man, was he a Youth League member?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct, he was.

MR MADASA: The one who had a revolver, was he an ANC Youth League member?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Chair I said he was one member of the community.

MR MADASA: You said Thabo was a member of the community.  The one who had the 9mm and you said - listen - and you said the other one was an ANC Youth League member, now I'm asking whether the one who was an ANC Youth League member is the one who had the revolver?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: No, Thabo had a 9mm.

MR MADASA: The one who had a flywheel, you called it a flywheel, I think that's a revolver.  Was that the one who was an ANC Youth League member?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Thaba was a member of the ANC Youth League and the person who had a revolver was from the community, he was a member of the community.

MR MADASA: Oh.  Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lekabe you may return to your seat.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chair.  May I call Jabulani Mtwalo.