Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I was referring to this.  You know, when a person is very fearful, when a person experiences something that actually troubled him, the person would come out and if he sees you he would come to you thinking that you would help him.  Fear would be dragging such a person towards a group of people, thinking that they would help him.  That's what I was referring to.

MR BERGER: But at the same time you give evidence to say that they would see the white bands so they would not come to us for help, they would run away from us because they would know we are the attackers?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, when a person is - fear differs, Mr Berger, we do not control ourselves in the same manner.  If one is very fearful he just loses sight of everything.

MR BERGER: I put it to you Mr Mbele that your evidence on this point is nonsense.

JACK MBELE: This is my evidence, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps, Mr Berger, you should reserve your comments on the evidence of the witnesses to the Committee.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I thought that in order for me to be able to argue that to the Committee I must put it to the witness so that he has an opportunity to respond.

CHAIRPERSON: But suffice which to put it at the level of being contradictory.

MR BERGER: Chair, I'll submit it goes further than that but I'll leave that for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just telling you that we have to respect the person who is giving evidence.  That's all I'm saying.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, you say that you were looking for people who were hiding.  How did you do that?

JACK MBELE: Not that we were looking for people who were hiding.  As the first group had passed, because our group was not big and we were walking quietly, they would emerge from their hiding places, maybe three or two minutes after that and they would come out and find us in the street, not that we were looking for them where they were hiding.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, correct me if I'm wrong but a few minutes ago you gave evidence where you specifically said that you were looking for people who were hiding.  Am I wrong?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, we did not look for people who were hiding, we did not get into houses looking for people who were hiding.  We were walking thinking that they themselves would come out after the first group had passed.

MR BERGER: You aim in Boipatong and Slovo Park was to kill as many of the residents as possible, am I right?

JACK MBELE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And up to that point when you got into Slovo Park you hadn't killed anybody.  In fact you hadn't even attacked anybody?

JACK MBELE: I would not say I did not attack a person.  I shot, I took part in shooting.  According to my knowledge, shooting is attacking a person.

MR BERGER: You're talking about the shots in Lekwa Street?

JACK MBELE: Lekwa Street and in the vicinity of the firms.

MR BERGER: Well in Lekwa Street you hadn't killed anybody?

JACK MBELE: I would not say I did not kill anybody.  Nobody fell to the ground.  We shot at them, they ran away.

MR BERGER: And the shooting at the firms was after you had already left Slovo Park?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So by the time you got into Slovo Park you didn't know whether anybody had died as a result of your actions?
What I'm putting to you is surely you would have gone through the houses and around the houses to see if there was anybody hiding there who had been missed by the first group of attackers?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, it did not come to me, I did not get into the houses because the first group had passed the streets already and I felt that there were no people in the houses.  Some of them might have been hiding somewhere.

MR BERGER: Where did you think they might be hiding?

JACK MBELE: I thought that people would be jumping from one street to the other, trying to run away from trouble and such a person would meet us in the street she or he is running to.

MR BERGER: But you never went into the streets, you stayed on that one road which divides Slovo Park from Boipatong and you moved up towards the factories, that's all you did?

JACK MBELE: That's what I'm saying Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that you are deliberately underplaying your role in the attack, Mr Mbele?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I've got nothing to hide because that would not help me at all.  I am here to tell the truth as to what I did.

MR BERGER: When you were in Slovo Park it was just the nine of you, there were no other people, the other attackers had passed through already?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw any white men in Slovo Park while you were there?

JACK MBELE: I never saw any white men.

MR BERGER: You never saw any policemen?

JACK MBELE: I never saw any policemen.

MR BERGER: You never saw any children lying dead in Slovo Park?

JACK MBELE: I never saw any child lying dead.

MR BERGER: You never saw any people dead except for the woman who was shot by Makuka?

JACK MBELE: The person that I would say I saw in the vicinity of Slovo Park, it's a man who was lying on the ground next to a certain shack inside his yard full of blood.

MR BERGER: That's the only person that you saw who was dead?

JACK MBELE: I don't have evidence as to whether he was dead or not.  We were just passing, he was lying on the ground next to a wall and then we passed.  I would not say whether he was dead or alive because I did not reach next to him.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you finish him off?

JACK MBELE: He was in a pool of blood, it was unnecessary to go and finish him off.  The people who passed had done the job already.  The blood around him was the proof of that.

MR BERGER: From Slovo Park you then came back into Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: After you had fired your shots at the factories or at people running toward the factories, did you attack any other people in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Nobody, Sir.

MR BERGER: Why not?

JACK MBELE: There was no one to shoot at.

MR BERGER: So you went the entire length of Boipatong from Slovo Park to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  You went through Boipatong without attacking anyone?

JACK MBELE: That's what I'm saying Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Without attacking any house?

JACK MBELE: I did not set my foot in any house in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Without throwing stones at any windows.

JACK MBELE: I had a firearm only.  I did not even throw a stone.

MR BERGER: You never fired any shots at any houses on your way back from Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger we were going to kill people.  The firearm that I had was not meant for shooting houses it was meant for shooting people.

MR BERGER: Well then I don't understand Mr Mbele.  You haven't yet killed a person as far as you know.  Now you come out of Slovo Park, you come back into Boipatong and you go the entire length of one of the streets, probably Bafukeng Street without shooting at anyone, shooting at anything, searching for people that you could kill.  In fact you walked peacefully through the entire length of Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, each and every person approaches war in his own ways.  People got into houses doing all sorts of things.  I was walking with the gun in my hand and my only aim was to shoot at anyone who would be running away so that this person falls to the ground and my men finish him off.  I did not shoot at houses because I didn't go to houses.  I was actually going for people.

MR BERGER: There was no one in the street for you to shoot at, why didn't you go into houses to look for people to shoot at?

JACK MBELE: That never came to me, it didn't come to me that I should get into houses, shoot at doors, get into houses, search for people.

MR BERGER: How did you know that the attack was over?

JACK MBELE: I did not know, I only realised that we were heading for the exit.