Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, you may proceed.

MR BERGER: (Continued)  Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Magubane, please have a look at the document at page 90 of the bundle.  It goes from page 90 to page 92.  Now you remember yesterday your counsel read through this document and you confirmed that that was the truth?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You made this statement in June of 1998.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Six years after the massacre.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you could still remember details of things you had done on the night of the massacre, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Were you assisted by anyone in making this statement?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Nobody helped me, I did it on my own.

MR BERGER: Who interpreted for you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't the name of the person, but I had a translator.

MR BERGER: According to the bottom of page 92, the interpreter was M S Tshabangu.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is that Nana Tshabangu?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the attorney who took the oath is Mr Fredericks, who is sitting next to your counsel today.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Where was this statement taken?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: In prison.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Nana Tshabangu also in prison with you at the time?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he was not in prison.

MR BERGER: So he was brought to the prison to act as an interpreter for the taking of this statement?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he came with the lawyer.

MR BERGER: Were there any other of your co-applicants present when you made this statement?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, in the prison which I am, I am the only one among the applicants.

MR BERGER: At the time when Mr Nana Tshabangu acted as an interpreter, he was no longer a policemen, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Magubane, I want you to try and recall the date on which you were arrested.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Do you mean this case or another case?

MR BERGER: I mean in relation to this case.  I'll put it in context, the massacre you know happened on the 17th of June 1992.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now how long after the massacre were you arrested?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was on the same month but I think it was somewhere at the end of the month.  If it is not at the end of the month, it was at the beginning of July the same year.

MR BERGER: So end June, beginning July 1992?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: So would it be correct then to say that you remained in the hostel for about two or three weeks after the massacre before you were arrested?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No.

MR BERGER: Well you see, from the 17th of June until the end of June, beginning of July is about two or three weeks.  So would that be the period during which you remained at kwaMadala before you were arrested?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I stayed in KwaMadala for a long time.  After Boipatong massacre I stayed at KwaMadala hostel for a long time.  I don't think it will be two weeks or three weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Magubane, you have estimated that you think you were arrested either towards the end of June or the beginning of July.  Now what counsel is putting to you is that it means you probably remained at the hostel from the day after the incident until the day when you were arrested, and that period is approximately three weeks.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go back to the hostel, did you remain at the hostel after the massacre?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I stayed in the hostel before the massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: We all know, you've told us that you've always remained at the hostel before the massacre.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about the period after the massacre, do you understand that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.  I was always in the hostel after the massacre, after the massacre on the 17th of June.  The 18th and 19th I was in KwaMadala hostel until I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel is putting to you is; if you estimate that you were arrested towards the end of June and the beginning of July, that period is approximately three weeks.  In other words, you remained in the hostel after the massacre for about three weeks before you were arrested.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: If you would say I stayed weeks, it is a short period or weeks are a short period to estimate.  It might be a month.  ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't get the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: I think the applicant's struggling to understand what the question is, he's going back to months and years, not weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that before the attack on Boipatong you were staying at the hostel.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After the attack you returned to the hostel.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I did these things whilst I was still in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: You went, you attacked, you returned to the hostel.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  You remained at the hostel until you were arrested.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you were arrested probably towards the end of June or the beginning of July.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: All that counsel is saying to  you, he's simply saying the period from the day of the massacre to the day when you were arrested is approximately three weeks.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I know understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'll ask my learned friend during the adjournment, perhaps he can give me certain dates for the applicants and it might make things a bit shorter.
	But I'll just ask you this question, Mr Magubane.  Were you arrested on your own or were you arrested with all the applicants?  This is now end of June/beginning July 1992.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was arrested with others.  We were many when we were arrested.

MR BERGER: Would that include all your co-applicants, as well as many of the others who were accused?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, some of the applicants I was arrested with them.  We were arrested in groups, not at the same time.

MR BERGER: Were there people who were arrested before you were arrested, were there groups who were arrested before your group was arrested?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I'm the first one to be arrested.

MR BERGER: Now during that three week period, I want to ask you some questions about that, would I be correct to say that during that period there was a very strong police presence at the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And it was very difficult to leave the hostel, in fact you couldn't leave the hostel without permission, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you couldn't enter the hostel without permission either, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: You would enter but you would not leave.  They would give permission to a person who enters, not the one who leaves.

MR BERGER: Yes, in order for someone to enter the hostel during that three week period, they had to get permission from the police to enter, would that be correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.