Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: And you have personal knowledge, you saw that file, did you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: No.  Well, I put it to you that I am instructed there was never a file on George Musi in the security branch.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They did, they had time to conceal that fact.  Even Joe Slovo's files must be disclosed and President Mandela's files must be disclosed.  These files are hidden.

MR VISSER: What file of President Mandela is hidden, Mr Motsamai?  What are you talking about?  Is this just for sake of sensation that you are saying these things or what?  Is there any merit at all in what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, there is merit in what I am saying.  All the files, all the files.

MR VISSER: Yes, all the files.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There are a lot of files.  They are in hundreds, they are hidden in this manner.  There was the Goldstone Commission where people applied for indemnity.  I am referring here, the security personnel.  There were allegations coming out of this Commission with respect to applications at the Goldstone Commission.  At national all these files were collected and hidden.  National Intelligence took those files and it was stated that they were taken to the farm, files and all the recordings.  If they were lying to let them continue and lie to you.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Motsamai, there is no more dangerous thing than a person who has only half the facts.  National Intelligence, being part of the SADF, has nothing to do with any files in the security branch. I am going to put to you, but I am not ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: But really, Mr Visser, I do not think it is relevant to this application.

MR VISSER: I will ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: (Speakers mike not on) the thing is whether there was a file of Mr Musi and whether, maybe, the file has been destroyed or whatever it, let us keep to Mr Musi's file.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.  All right.  What about this person that you refer to as China?  How long have you known him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I have known him for a long time.

MR VISSER: Yes, and Mabilo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I have known him for a long time also.

MR VISSER: Yes, and George Musi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I knew him from the files.

MR VISSER: But, you see, Mr Motsamai, you told this Committee that when you were instructed by Coetzee and Shaw to go and murder Mr Musi, you were told that China sometimes stays with the old man.  Is that not correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: Did you not know exactly what they were talking about when they told you that, because China you have long, known for a long time?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I knew.

MR VISSER: But you did not have to look at a file to know where China lived, did you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, Sergeant Mamome knew quite well where we were going.  He knew the house.  When I got into that office the files were open on the table.  That is why we left and went straight to that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for a minute, Mr Visser?  You were asked by, how long you had known various people and when you were asked about Musi you said you knew him from the files.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My notes and my recollection is that a few minutes ago you said there was a file on George Musi, I did not see that file.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, how, if you did not see the file, can you say you knew him from the file?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is like that from the files.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you not understand when you say you did not see the file, but you mean you did not see it?  What else do you mean by it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When I say I did not see the file, where they were seated, the two of them.  I, what I meant was that the two files, there was George Musi's file and China's file.  Mostly when we received commands they would put the files on the table and in those files, each one of the files has got a snapshot of that person.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you looked and saw a snapshot of him in the file.  Is that what you are telling us now?  That is how you knew him, because you had seen a snapshot of him in the file.  Is that what you are saying?  I just want you to clarify, please.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When they took out these files, I found them on the table.  Sergeant Mamome was the one who was told that we will be going to China and Mr Musi's residence.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not want to answer the question.  We can merely record the fact.  Carry on.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, and you see, Mr Motsamai, another problem, which I suggest you have, is you, in your evidence in-chief, told this Committee quite explicitly while you were going on and on about files and hundreds of files, you said, inter alia, and I asking you whether you did, we would be given a command and we would collect the file and then went to collect the person.  Is that not what you said?  That is before we came ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Are you saying we collect the file and go and collect this person?  May you please elaborate.

MR VISSER: I do not want to elaborate.  I am saying that is what you said, Mr Motsamai.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not go and collect the file. The file is put on the table and we are given an instruction that we must go and collect this person.  If there are a lot of people, these files are pegged on the table and not one of us who would come in that office would see those files.

MR VISSER: If it appears from the record later that you did say that we would collect the file and then go and collect the person, that evidence would be false.  Is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They would take the files and we would be given an instruction.  That is when we will go and collect these people.

MR VISSER: I will take that as a yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, I just get confused here with his, I am not saying that the interpretation is wrong, but I have difficulties in understanding the evidence, literally, as it stands when the witness is suppose to be saying the files would be, will be put on the table and there would be a pile of them, but none of us would see that, those files.  I am sure there is something wrong there, because if he is able to see that is a pile of files, then he is able to see them.  Does he not when he says, none of us, does he not say or mean that, by saying none of us would see those files, does he not mean none of us would read them?