Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, with the greatest of respect, I think my learned friend is confused between two different statements.  The person who apparently spoke about the stealing of weapons and ammunition was Mr Eugene Terre'blanche.  What I referred to on page 637 was this very own witness's evidence in the criminal proceedings that he received an instruction from Oelofse to obtain weapons as it is stated in Afrikaans "the order was for us to obtain arms and ammunition for the time ahead".  That is obviously in connection with the video material.

MRS VAN DER WALT: This witness says during his criminal proceedings on page 637 that Mr Oelofse said that to him.  That I can't find, perhaps I can't see it.  If Mr Dreyer could just point it out, I don't know what he's talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer, whatever you say it stands on the record.  What page is it?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, it's still page 637 and when I cross-examine this witness on that very portion I read that just the following paragraph to him which states as follows in Afrikaans "Very well, it came from higher authority than yourself?"  "That is correct"  My learned friend recalls I then specifically here in cross-examination said "This higher authority to which you have referred in the criminal proceedings, who is the higher authority?"  We can always listen to the record Mr Chairman, that is why I've ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well this is the problem, this kind of problem, will always or very often arise when only one person reads from a document and start cross-examining witnesses when other people don't have that same document but what do you find on that page Mrs van der Walt, what do you find on that page?

MRS VAN DER WALT: My point is and this is what the witness is trying to convey is that he was trying to protect General Oelofse.  The question was then put to him that during his criminal proceedings he testified that all Oelofse and the name was mentioned - Oelofse, gave him the order and I specifically asked what was being referred because my instructions were that he never mentioned Oelofse's name as the person who issued the order.  Then I was referred to page 637 and Oelofse's name does not appear on page 637.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say in answer to the query raised by Mrs van der Walt, Mr Dreyer?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, once again because it was not a matter that I dealt with, I will answer that with reference to page 723 of the record of proceedings in the criminal matter.  It was specifically asked from this witness "Why did you go to the General, General Oelofse?" and then he answered as follows "A tragedy occurred and I did not really know how to handle it"  "Did you tell him about this tragedy?"
	"I spoke to him and he told me that 'I sent you out, I sent you out to obtain arms and ammunition, what have you done now?'" 
	"Then I wanted to show him, I showed him the ear and he said that he didn't want to know anything about it."

CHAIRPERSON: I think that settles the dispute then.  Well it is on a different page then, the one we thought it was on.
	Is it so though, Mr Kloppers, that when you gave evidence in court you said Mr Oelofse gave you instructions to cut an ear then bring it back to you?  I just want to know that that is what you told the Trial Court?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If I have it correctly, I did not state it as that
in the Supreme Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you regard it as necessary to tell the court that you took the ear to Mr Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: ...[inaudible]

MR DREYER: Just a last statement, Mr Chairman, to the witness.
	To conclude, the version of Mr Oelofse was down to the fact that he does not distance himself from the order which you allegedly said that he gave, not to indemnify himself but because he did not issue and order like you said that he did and that you acted alone?  Your commentary regarding that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I regard that as false and I regard that as cowardly of him not to appear before us today to discuss this matter.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman, I won't be long because most of the questions I had anticipated asking have been dealt with, but one or two I like here.
	If you would please switch off or put on the earphones?  Can you hear me?
	Mr Kloppers, did you receive instructions from anyone to steal money, clothing, shoes, cassettes, watches or anything of that sort?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

MR BRINK: Now I just want to tell you, as you probably heard when I questioned Mr Martin that there will be evidence from the survivors' list - dreadful attack - that at no stage were admissions made by them that they were members of the ANC or supporters of the ANC.  They were told they were ANC and they were then shot?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Upon our question.

MR BRINK: Now, you told the Committee there was to have been a nationwide revolution, correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR BRINK: Now apart from what was then the Transvaal, how strong was the ANC in other provinces such as the Eastern Cape, Western Cape and Natal?   AWB - sorry I said the ANC.  I beg your pardon.   How strong was the AWB in provinces such as the Eastern Cape, Western Cape and Natal?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We were reasonably well represented in all the regions.  If I look at my 1993 membership card which I renewed with the AWB there was quite a number of people in the Wen Commando, 156 000 members of the Wen Commando and this was the three regions.

MR BRINK: And you understood that this revolution was to start on Sunday the 12th December 1993 with similar sorts of incidents, similar to that which took place as far as you were concerned?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct, I understood that this revolution would originate on a nationwide level as it was conveyed to me at the meeting on the 12th December 1993.

MR BRINK: And it's a fact is it not that your operation was the only one in the whole country which was "successful".

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, it's not a fact - I heard afterwards that there had been other bomb explosions and incidents but I don't know much about them.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Brink.
	Did you hear of other bomb explosions on that same Sunday evening?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Not the same Sunday evening - I don't know upon which dates these incidents occurred but in the words of General Oelofse to me personally in the presence of Commandant Deon Martin at that time we were the only area which did any work that night and he was very angry about that.

MR MALAN: So just for clarity sake, that was the only operation which took place on that night in the whole country of which you know?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know about the whole country, I only know about our area.

MR MALAN: That which you know of?  You don't know of any other operation which took place anywhere else in the country that night?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Malan.
	Incidently, as a matter of interest, did you claim damages against the state in respect of the assaults and torture to which you were subjected?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I gave a complete statement to my legal aid, they handed it over to the next legal team.  At one point I had seven legal representatives.  My last advocate, Advocate Gerhard Botes suggested that we not agitate the judge with other issues and that in due course he would submit this case and that is why nothing has emerged from it.  However, I did report my injuries to the AWB's medical practitioner.

MR BRINK: Do I understand you then you have lodged no claim against the Ministry of Police in respect of the injuries you've suffered?