Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR NTONGA: After you have met the following day with your unit members, what happened?

MR MASEKO: After we had given them the money they had to go back to their places and I was left in Umtata.  They went back to their places, the others.

MR NTONGA: And you also made a report about the operation?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir and in that report I ensured that it was written in my handwriting.

MR NTONGA: And then at the end of the operation you handed over the money and you made your report?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: Let's go back to the auditorium where the robbery took place.

MR MASEKO: I have a problem when you mention the word robbery because soldiers are not actually involved in robbery they're just repossessing.

MR NTONGA: I stand corrected.  When the assault group went
inside the auditorium could you see what was happening there or you knew, just knew what's going to happen because of what had been planned?

MR MASEKO: I couldn't see because I was outside.  I was not able to see everything that was happening even the one who had been injured I wouldn't see him or her but I would responsibility for each and everything that happened there as a commander as I was also working and the instruction and I take full responsibility of the unit.

MR NTONGA: So there's nothing you can shed or give us more light about what happened inside the auditorium because you were not in a position to see what was happening inside?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I'm not in a position to tell you because I didn't see anything.

MR NTONGA: And you already told the Commission that as a leader of this unit, commander, you take responsibility for whatever happened there?  Confirm that?

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir.

MR NTONGA: And you've already submitted to this Commission that as a commander of that unit you take responsibility of whatever happened inside the auditorium?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: That's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR K. NODADA

MR NODADA: Mr Maseko can you throw some light on the preparations before the actual raid at the university?  Where did you gather before you proceeded to the university?

MR MASEKO: Me, myself and who else?  Whom are you referring to sir?

MR NODADA: I'm referring to the people who were under your command, the three groups which you have described as the assault, support and cut off group.

MR MASEKO: I have already explained that as a commander of the unit I knew where those people stayed, I went to fetch them so that we could start with our mission.

MR NODADA: Was it your first visit at this university on this day?  Were you going to that university for the first time on that day?

MR MASEKO: No it was not for the first time.

MR NODADA: So you knew the place very well?

MR MASEKO: There's no operation that can take place without any recognisance without information - we've got to go there and make a recognisance and get more information about the place.

MR NODADA: I see.  As a person who was in command of this unit, was it your decision not to have a firearm and only have a knife?

MR MASEKO: Truly I was not supposed to be there but because I wanted to give them the moral support I decided to be with them.

MR NODADA: Where were you supposed to be?

MR MASEKO: As a commander they were supposed to work alone and I would get a report from them.

MR NODADA: When I look at page 22 of the record of the report, that is the page which contains the report that was submitted to this administrator, I see that there were eight firearms that were in your possession, that is in the possession of the three groups and in addition to the eight firearms there was an Okapi knife.  Was there anyone of you who had two firearms in his possession?

MR MASEKO: I have already explained that there's a mistake they listed eight firearms, truly speaking we had a shortage of firearms we had only seven, I already explain that.

MR NODADA: Yes, now when you say there's a mistake, who made the mistake?

MR MASEKO: The person who was writing this report.

MR NODADA: So this report was not written by you?

MR MASEKO: I said so that this is not my handwriting, I explained that.  It was somebody else who was writing under my instruction.

MR NODADA: Did you read the report before you submitted it to the commander rather to the administrator?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember.

MR NODADA: So you are only noticing this mistake for the first time today?

MR MASEKO: Yes, it's only now that I realise that there's a mistake.

MR NODADA: For how long had you been a member of the Pan African Congress, APLA - that is the army section of the congress?

MR MASEKO: As a member of PAC I started in 1986.

MR NODADA: And you had been involved in a number of operations before you were involved in this one at UNITRA?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NODADA: According to the procedure that you follow what are the instructions when you are sent to go to a place and repossess money or firearms or jewellery.  What is the purpose of being armed when you go out there?

MR MASEKO: We are soldiers first of all and the soldier is always having his firearm.  Another thing, whatever can happen as a soldier, you've got to shoot first you must not wait for somebody else to do something before you shoot.  Those were the instructions.

MR NODADA: I want to understand those instructions.  What must happen before you can shoot?

MR MASEKO: When you draw your firearm - as a soldier I will shoot - I won't wait for you to shoot because I don't even know whether you are going to hit me or not but once you draw a firearm I shoot first.

MR NODADA: I'm made to understand that the purpose of going to the University of Transkei on that day was to get money which had been collected for the registration of students on that day.  Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir.

MR NODADA: My understanding is that the purpose of this operation at the University of Transkei was to get the money that had been collected on that day from moneys paid by students for registration purposes?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

MR NODADA: And if that is then the position you'd only be expected to shoot when there was an imminent attack in the form of either a person drawing out a firearm apparently intending to shoot or some other indication that there was going to be a shooting, is that not the case?

MR MASEKO: The person didn't intend to shoot but he shot right away.

MR NODADA: Which person are you referring to now?

MR MASEKO: It was one of the people who were inside the auditorium.  The policeman who was in private clothes.

MR NODADA: I understand your evidence to be that you do not know what happened inside because you were outside you only heard gunshots, is that not the case?

MR MASEKO: I said so but I got the report from the people who were inside.  They told me when they came with the money, they explained to me what actually happened.  Though I was outside but I got the report of what happened inside.

MR NODADA: So personally you do not know what happened inside and as such you cannot testify about anything that happened except for hearing gunshot from where you were standing?

MR MASEKO: Yes I said so from the beginning.

MR NODADA: And you do not know whether those who were shot and injured, killed and injured, some persons inside were justified, I mean in terms of the instructions that you had given to them since you were outside and did not know how they behaved inside?

MR MASEKO: I don't get your question sir.

MR NODADA: My question is, you are not in a position to say whether those who were inside actually followed your instructions namely that they should only get money and shoot only when there was an imminent attack?

MR MASEKO: I said so from the beginning sir.