Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsepe, we welcome you.  I want to know where are you staying.

MR MOTSEPE: I am staying at Moutse.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you doing?

MR MOTSEPE: I am working with the Civic Association.  And I am running a pre-school project.

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to tell us about what happened on the 8th May 1987 when you visited your friend.  We ask you to tell us what happened on that day.

MR MOTSEPE: On the 8th May, it was around 7 pm, I went to my friend Frans Nawe.  After 30 minutes being with him I found him with Semlope and Solemo Sepe. Whilst we were still there we heard some sounds outside.  When we were listening to those footsteps we saw a white policeman at the door.  He was with other black policemen.  What they did when they arrived there they asked me, because I was near the door, that they are looking for Frans Nawe whom I visited.  When I answered them I said I don't know the name of that person because I am selling oranges, because I was sitting next to the crate.  Then they asked Frans what was your name.  Before they asked him they showed us their identity cards.  There was no electricity at that time, we were using paraffin lamps.  Then he looked at that, then they asked him what is your name, then he had to tell them their name.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
2 MOTSEPE
That time when they were asking there was one who was looking at me, then he said they must hold me with the belt and take me outside.  They took me outside, they tightened my hands.  After that they put me in a car and they drove towards Pitskraal road.  When they arrived at the Marble Hall Matete road they turned left.  That is the road which goes to Seobuswa.  Before they arrived at Seobuswa they turned left again. Then I thought it is Habekwange.  Then they stopped there.  Then they asked me what is your name. I didn't tell them my name at that time because I didn't know whom I was talking to.  Then they drove back to Komhlanga.  When they arrived at Komhlanga I was beaten that night up to dawn the following day.  They left me a little bit and they took off the sack cloth.  The following day in the afternoon they took me again to beat me.  They took me again to the cell.  On the third day they did the same again, asking me as to whether did I know Frans Nawe and many other people, together with Chief Matebe.  Then I said I know Chief Matebe as the chief.  They told me that that is not true.  You are a group of people who are telling the Moutse residents to deny to be ruled by the Kwandebele government. Then I told them that I don't know that one.  The following day I was taken during the day around about ten they took me to their office and showed me an album.  They were asking me people who were on those photos.   Some of the people there I knew them.  Then they said will you tell us where are they.  I said no, I don't know.  During that time when they were questioning me they were asking me about a certain car where they got it at a scrapyard and they found that car written that it is owned by me.  Then I told them the real story that I was there and I did request
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
3 MOTSEPE
the people at the scrapyard to come and pull the car.  After two o'clock they left me and took me to the cell.   Then the following day I was taken, they dropped me at Matete.  I walked on foot to the taxi rank and there was no transport there.  I looked for accommodation.  The following day I went home.  At home I stayed for a day then I went to Alexandra.  Then I went to the clinic there.  I was treated at the clinic.  Then from there I came back home.  I know that I completed three weeks.  After those three weeks they came again and found me.  They found me at Siphiwe Nchali's house.  At that time Siphiwe was not there.  He was imprisoned, then I was visiting his mother to find out how his wellbeing is.  On that day I was taken and they beat me and left me on the road.  Then I ran, I ran out of our village.  That was the last time I saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsepe when you were visiting your friend Nawe you met other people at Frans Nawe's place.  Was there a meeting or was it just a social visit?

MR MOTSEPE: We didn't have any meeting.  I hadn't seen him for a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he from?  As you say you didn't see him for a long time.

MR MOTSEPE: He was taken people which means it shows that he was hiding himself somewhere, then he came back.

CHAIRPERSON: Which political organisation were you in at that time?

MR MOTSEPE: We were in the youth organisation.  It was called Moutse Federation of Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: What was this congress on about?  What was it doing?  What was your political activity?

MR MOTSEPE: It was working hand in hand with the Civic
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
4 MOTSEPE
Association.  It was formed after we were tortured by these people I have mentioned.  Then thereafter we formed this federation.  We were working hand in hand with UDF.

CHAIRPERSON: One of the reasons for the formation of that organisation is because you were tortured.  Who was torturing you, was it the government or just people in the area?

MR MOTSEPE: I would say it is the government because we were tortured by people who wore a green uniform.  That people were called kitskonstabels.

CHAIRPERSON: So these kitskonstabels were responsible for your torture?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So therefore you organised - what did you want to do so that you would be able to protect yourself?  You said one of the reasons for the formation of this organisation was because you were assaulted and tortured.  So you wanted that they should not continue to assault you.  How did you think to protect yourself against these people?

MR MOTSEPE: It was to protect ourselves and to tell others that here we are not sleeping in peace.  All the time we were sleeping in a forest because if you sleep at home they will come and fetch you.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you raided?

MR MOTSEPE: We didn't do anything, they would just come in the village, particularly if you are a young man, they would just go home and ask your mother and say where are your boys then you will be taken and then be beaten.  Then you will not be given a reason why.

CHAIRPERSON: When they took you then where did Frans go?
They took you alone and left Frans behind?
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
5 MOTSEPE

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, they left him behind.

CHAIRPERSON: When they arrived they said they are looking for Frans now they took you.  That shows that they didn't know him but they only knew his name.    What made the police to say that you should be taken, did they know who you were?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, I believe that they knew me. I was arrested therefore I believed they knew me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived there being beaten could you tell us how you were beaten and with what.

MR MOTSEPE: ... a pick handle because I was tied with the hands and the feet.  I could not even tell how many people were beating me but there were many.  These cars were many, I could hear.  They used a pick handle and their knobkerries or the batons which are used by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: You said they showed you the albums which inside where photos of people and they asked me who were those people.  What did they say these people did?

MR MOTSEPE: They didn't tell me what they have done, I was only told one thing.  They just told me that those people in the album we didn't want Kwandebele to govern the Moutse community.  That is the only thing they told me.

CHAIRPERSON: After that you went to Alexandra township so far to the clinic.  Why didn't you use the local hospitals and clinics?  What made you to go such a distance?

MR MOTSEPE: At that time if you went to the hospital it was the same as going to the police.  They would be able to call the police to come and fetch you again.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you, sir.