Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

TYRONE AUSTIN: Ja, this route was, you see, I was at that time the president of the SRC and together with COSAS we planned the route towards the cemetery.  The planned route was from Pond Street down to Josa Street towards the cemetery.  Then ultimately what happened was that the police wanted to change that and wanted to take the street behind the back of EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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the stadium, Nawo Street, I think that's the street's name.  The police wanted to take that street and then the back of the crowd, without realising what's happening took the initiative and they went towards the street that the police actually decided now during this day.  But when we moved towards that street, I also heard afterwards that there was a councillor staying in that street and the police were like protecting that house there.  The so-called grouping that we went over, we were about twelve, we were about 50 metres back into the crowd, and moving about one minute there was just gunfire all over the place, and people were scattering in all directions and me, Bully and another student comrade that was with us that day, we ran in our direction and the other students, they ran in their direction but it was just unfortunate, or fortunate for me that me and Bully and Aldred was running in the same direction.  It was while we were running that I saw Bully put his hand to the back of his head and I realised that he was running slower, and I actuall helped him run.  When we entered the yard on the opposite side of the street, I realise that he couldn't even clime through a fence line that was that low, and he actually fell and I picked him up and we ran into the toilet.  It was in the toilet that I realised that we had to get him into a house so that he can lie down, because what happened, he was sitting on the toilet seat and he told me that he was getting drowsy, but when I touche his hand  I felt it was getting cold, and I realised that he will have to get to a hospital.
 Now when I carried him into the yard shooting was still going on outside, and when I laid him down, he told me that he was getting cold and I asked the sissy in the house if 
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she could lend me a blanket, which was already on the way without me even asking for it.  But in any case I immediately went outside to go and look for a car, because this auntie in the house told me that she doesn't have a telephone and she doesn't have a car.
 Now when I went outside I was prevented from going into the street by the police and they were asking me what I was doing, you know it was black policemen and I told them that we attended a funeral and we've got a casualty inside here which has to go to the hospital immediately, he's got a wound in the back of his head.  They told me that they have got orders that no one is allowed to go into the streets and I have to go back into the house.  I told them it's impossible for me to go back into the house because then this guy is going to die inside.

MR SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Austin, can I interrupt you here?  The situation is as follows, it's yourself, your friend Bully, you are part of the crowd and all of a sudden someone starts firing.  Did you see the person who opened fire on you?  I understand at some stage you had to appear in court as a witness, what did you have to say there?

TYRONE AUSTIN: You see, there were a whole lot of policemen around which I saw were shooting, and I can be specific to pin point anybody at this point, but what happened later on, when I was detained after that in July, when I was interrogated by the security police, dew Lise actually came in and he told me that he was actually aiming for me. Now it's general knowledge in Grahamstown that me and de Lise had a thing going on.  All the students at that time knew that, so I could just assume that maybe my friend died in my place.
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MR SANDI: You mentioned the name of de Lise, the name of de Lise was mentioned by Mr Kohl, where is this de Lise now?

TYRONE AUSTIN: He's dead.

MR SANDI: Thank you I've got nothing further to ask.

MR SANDI: Mr Chairperson could I ask a question of Mr Kohl.  Mr Kohl you say that you know the identity of the person who killed your son?

ROBERT KOHL: The thing is I don't know the person personally but I heard the name of the person is de Lise, I don't know him personally, I haven't seen him actually.

MR SANDI: Okay and that person is now dead?

ROBERT KOHL: That's what I understood.

MR SANDI: Do you know the family of the person?

ROBERT KOHL: Of de Lise, I don't know the family.

MR SANDI: Do you feel that it is necessary for your peace to be established, for you to know the family and be at peace with that family?

ROBERT KOHL: I will appreciate that.

MR SANDI: Thank you. (end of tape 12 side A)
(start side B of tape 12)

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: ....and we give thanks for their witness, thank you.