Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Yes?
VIDEO CONTINUES
PRESENTER - PENNY SMYTHE
		"On Agenda tonight the Conservative  Party (indistinct - voice fades ...) following the Hani assassination.  (Indistinct ...)."    (Recording cannot be heard to transcribe)
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
"(Indistinct ....) in South Africa, because the government and the ANC has already agreed on a constitution-making body on a transitional government, but now the ANC announced that they are going with a mass action until the government has promised the date of the election.  And the fact is that they create the violence.  Because their leaders, they made statements and acts, they killed people at the funeral yesterday, nine people were killed; 19 before the time, and they regard it as a success, and we think it was a total failure from a point of view of law and order and maintenance and stability.
MR VENTER
		Forgive me for interrupting you.  I hear what you say that the Conservative Party is not involved in planning the violence, but how do you account for the fact then that two of your members have been associated, and these are members of the party, these are public representatives, these are not people elsewhere in local (indistinct). of supporters.
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		(Indistinct) It is not -  the party  didn't plan any act,  actually the party said in all its meetings, at its congresses, that our aim is to create a political situation in South Africa where there will be peace and stability.
MR VENTER
		But if it is not the party, how does it happen, Dr Hartzenberg?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Well, it happens all over the world.
		MR VENTER:  Political parties?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Political parties all over the world.  Well, a member of the National Party killed a labourer on his farm the other day. Is that the National Party, means that the National Party is involved in violence and killings? It happens all over the world and all over this country.
MR VENTER
		So your point is that there isn't a pattern developing, that there isn't a culture of violence?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		No, not in the Conservative Party.
MR VENTER
		If one looks at the sort of statements that are made by the leadership of the party, yourself included, is the statements the talk repeatedly about the need for resistance, armed resistance - I had a look through the files there is a file of Press cuttings, all of the same direction. Now admittedly none of those are a direct call to arms, but is not the open-ended nature of this sort of threatening talk, amounting to a tacit approval of violence?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		No, no, not at all. You know, our nation, the Afrikaner nation has a history of protest and sometimes they used weapons to protest, but that is not to make a war, but to make sure that the people know that we are serious and the fact is, that we has a right as a nation to freedom and self-determination.  And what is happening at the moment in the country, points to a situation where the Communist is going to take over this country, and that we will never accept.  And therefore, we say if that happens in South Africa, it will not be accepted by our nation, and therefore, we say at the beginning of this century we fought a war against the biggest country in the world, for our freedom.  And don't push us too far because if you take that risk, that might happen again and that is why the Conservative Party put our case, we made the statement and we propose the policy just to prevent that situation.
MR VENTER
		So you are saying if, if this takeover that you are talking about, then a violent resistance to it. So it is a situation that hasn't arisen yet?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Look, Mr Venter, we have watched the news tonight and we have seen the violence in Yugoslavia. It is being created as a result of a political situation, and the Government and the ANC want to create the same situation in South Africa. And we will not be responsible for what is going to happen if that situation is created in South Africa.  We warned them, but we are not going to accept a Communist government over our nation.
MR VENTER
		I would like to return to that point, but talking about the news, the item relevant there was that the European Parliament is going to investigate rightwing connections between Europe and South Africa.  Now this flows from the connections of members such as Mr Derby-Lewis and the various organisations.
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Ja.
MR VENTER
		Any comments on this investigation, that will touch your party?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		If you will allow me I will answer this one in Afrikaans.
MR VENTER
		Please.
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Dit is vir my 'n groot verrassing dat hulle nou die konneksie tussen mnr Derby-Lewis en sekere regse groepe in Europa wil ondersoek. Hoekom ondersoek hulle nie die konneksies tussen politieke leiers in Afrika met Kommunistiese Partye in Europa nie?  Hoekom ondersoek die Europese Parlement nie die uitlatings wat mev Winnie Mandela gemaak het, naamlik dat die ANC verantwoordelik is vir hierdie moord en dat sy twee name genoem het, en dat hulle nou daaroor begaan is. Ek dink hierdie hele poging is daarop gemik om die aandag af te trek van die geweld wat veroorsaak is deur die Regering en die ANC. Hulle is verantwoordelik daarvoor. Nou word daar 'n sondebok gesoek.  
MNR VENTER
		Maar die Europese Parlement (onduidelik) en hulle sameswering (onduidelik).
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Die Europese Parlement wil graag he dit wat die Regering en die ANC voorstel moet plaasvind in Suid-Afrika, en hulle weet net so goed soos ons weet, hier is te veel weerstand daarteen, nie net van ons nie, maar van baie ander partye, nasies, state in Suid-Afrika wat nie die situasie wil he nie.
MR VENTER
		Talking about resistance, Dr Hartzenberg, and before you leave the  Afrikaans ...(intervention)
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Ja.
MR VENTER
		You said yesterday in Parliament "die volk sal in opstand moet kom teen oorname".  The nation will have to come, a rising resistance against the take-over of the ANC and the SACP. Do you accept that such a take-over might be the logical democratic outcome of an open election in South Africa?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Well, I don't think there will be an open election in South Africa.
MR VENTER
		Why not?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		In the first instance because 
		as I have said just now, the Government and the ANC already agreed on the election of a constituent assembly and on a transitional executive council.  
MR VENTER
		Is that not an election?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		That is not an election if now they must negotiate it and they must determine whether other parties also support it. But now the ANC announced that they are going with mass action to determine these things. In other words, they are not interested in negotiations.
MR VENTER
		Does that mean that you are opposed to an open free election in the country?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Of course, we believe that there must be elections for the nations and the states who prefer to be free and have self-determination.
MR VENTER
		If the drive towards negotiations which it clearly is at the moment, is to the creation of such an election, what is the CP doing in those negotiations?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		Laat ek net vir jou een ding vertel, en dit is, minstens ons volk is nie te vinde vir 'n oorheersing deur die ANC en die Kommunistiese Party of enigiemand anders nie. Ons is nie die enigste nie. Daar is ander state en ander volke wat dieselfde wil he en ons doel is om juis dit by die onderhandelingstafel duidelik te stel, sodat daar voorsiening voor gemaak kan word.  En as daarvoor voorsiening gemaak word, dit is wat ons voorstel, dat state en volke wat vry wil wees en selfbeskikking wil he en onafhanklik self wil wees, dat hulle moet toegelaat word om te doen. Alleen dan kan jy vrede in Suid-Afrika he, maar as 'n meerderheid 'n klomp volke wil oorheers, sal jy nooit vrede in Suid-Afrika he nie. En dit is presies wat ons by die onderhandelingstafel voor gesorg het dat selfbeskikking op die lys kom.
MR VENTER
		Granted. But if the negotiations carry on the track that they are at the moment, and that is the end goal being immediate, end goal being an open election, are you saying that the Conservative Party will pull out of those negotiations?
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		We have only one point on our agenda, and whether we fight elections or we participate in Parliament or in any form or in mobilisation, we have only one point on our agenda, and that is the freedom and self-determination of our nation.
MR VENTER
		Dr Hartzenberg ... (intervention).
DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG
		And if it becomes clear that negotiations will not deliver that, then it will be meaningless to participate, then we will sign our own funeral arrangements and we are not going to do that, we are not prepared to do that.
MR VENTER
		Dr Hartzenberg, thank you very much.  That is from us in Parliament in Cape Town, back to you, Penny."