Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-26

<UNKNOWN>: What I want to emphasise is that clearly my reference to people who do not want to assist the 
Commission, could not have included Mr Visser's clients for the pure and simple reason that it was 
knowledge at that time that all his clients applied for amnesty and that they are working together with the 
Committee and are part of this process. That is an important point that I want to place on record. 
	Furthermore, in respect of what was said "Die algemede houding van die veiligheids magte" it 
was simply a general reference, "a general attitude of the security forces", about the general attitude of 
members of the South African Defence Force for instance and I made that statement as a general statement. 
It obviously didn't include people who are willing to participate in the process and it obviously didn't 
include Mr Visser's clients.
	Mr Visser acts on behalf of 81 former South African Police members and, therefore, clearly he 
cannot speak for the whole South African Security Forces including the South African Defence Force or 
other policemen. We ourselves act for other policemen as well.
	And then lastly, I want to say, Mr Chairman, that we are very appreciative of the fact that Mr 
Visser has indicated that his clients intend to cooperate with the Commission and with us and we would 
appreciate it if it could be possible for us, and we would discuss that with Mr Visser, if it would be possible 
for us to perhaps have consultations with some of his clients who might be able to assist the applicants in 
providing the Commission with important and necessary information which his clients might have and 
might possess. Obviously, we do not want to drag the proceedings out and we will limit it to just the 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 170

<UNKNOWN>: necessary information but, we deem it important that the Committee obtains evidence pertaining to the 
order structure and the workings of the State Security Council and if they can be of assistance to us, we 
would gratefully appreciate it. Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Well, I have no doubt that that is a matter that you and Mr Visser would be able to work 
out. This Committee can hardly direct Mr Visser and tell him that he should instruct his clients to render 
assistance, I have no doubt that that is a matter that experienced legal men like you would be able to 
resolve amongst yourselves.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will definitely endeavour to do so and we are grateful for the 
fact that they have indicated in public that they are prepared to assist the Committee.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if I may by way of reply. The matter seems to have resolved itself by my 
learned friend now stating publicly, that his remarks were not intended to reflect on my clients and I am 
sure Die Beeld's reporter who is here will rectify that in a next edition. Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes. Thank you very much.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, yesterday when we adjourned we were busy with the matter no. 3. on Day 1 
"Interrogation of Scheepers Morudu" my learned friend Mr Brian Currin was to sum up that matter. I hand 
over to him.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, that is correct, you will recall that we were to call Scheepers Morudu and I 
will do that in a moment but before I do that and very briefly, there is an issue of importance that just needs 
to be raised before you, I did discuss it with you previously.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 171

<UNKNOWN>: As you will recall, Mr Chairman, on the 6th February, we approached, on behalf of the victims, 
the Committee to subpoena a group of witnesses in regard to the whole question of the line of command, 
the issue of trivets and cooperation between the SAP and the SADF, time is becoming important because 
of the fact that if they, depending on your eventual ruling, if they are to be subpoenaed they need to be 
given sufficient notice, and I just would, because I have instructions from the victims who are affected, to 
raise with you now in the forum, the written application which we filed with the further motivation earlier 
this week in regard to Brig. Victor, Brig. Schoon, Col. Louw, Gen. Buchner, Gen. Beukes, the former 
Minister of Law and Order - Adriaan Vlok, the former Minister of Defence - Magnus Malan and the 
former State President - P W Botha, to hear whether you have had an opportunity to consider the matter 
and what your position is in regard to calling these witnesses. As I indicated and particularly with regard to 
the Zero handgrenade case, where we in fact heard from General van der Merwe, who at the time was head 
of the Security Police that he had taken up the matter with the then Commissioner Johan Coetzee, who in 
turn had discussed the issue with the then Minister of Law and Order - Louis LeGrange - and he believed 
that that had then been discussed with P W Botha. Now our clients are obviously keen to hear about that 
chain of command and it is for that purpose, inter alia that we made the application and we would just like 
you to give us an indication as to your views on the application.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Currin, we reserved judgment I think on Monday, we reserved judgement and 
obviously as soon as the 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 171

<UNKNOWN>: judgement is at hand we will give it.

MR CURRIN: I am sorry, there must have then been an misunderstanding, I didn't understand that to be 
the case, I was asked to make a written submission, which I did, and it hasn't really been discussed in an 
open forum since then and my clients obviously were keen to hear what the situation is and it is for that 
reason that I raised it, and I did raise it with Judge Mall this morning before the sitting began and said I 
would raise it and he said it would be in order.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You circulated submission, written submissions to us, didn't you?

MR CURRIN: That is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And we indicated that we would consider them and as soon as we have considered 
them we would make a ruling.

MR CURRIN: That is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But we are going to do that and as soon as we have reached a decision we will let you 
know without delay.

MR CURRIN: I accept that.

UNKNOWN: We understand the purpose for which you require these people to be subpoenaed, your 
concern about the chain of command and how far it extends, there has been some evidence in that regard, I 
have no doubt that when General van der Merwe comes, a great deal more light may be throw and 
whatever difficulties there may be, a lot of them may be cleared up and we may have a better 
understanding of this chain of command. There is likely perhaps to be other evidence as well apart from 
General van der Merwe. The Committee would like to take its decision after it hears 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 172
that evidence because it does not want to rush into subpoenaing people to give evidence when a great deal 
of that evidence may become clear through other witnesses.  So Mr Currin I think that your clients, I have 
no doubt you will advise your clients that due consideration will be given, but we would like to decide on 
precisely who of these people should be subpoenaed if we feel that it is necessary to do so and then we will 
let you know, but we would like to take that decision ultimately after we have heard evidence.

MR CURRIN: I accept that ruling, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Chairman I now sincerely hope that we are going to get started and hear evidence 
in respect of a matter, which for that matter should have been heard on Monday.  We hope that there is now 
going to be progress and we hope that we are going to hear evidence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Sir. That will be so.