Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not recall that name.

MR BERGER: Swi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I do not quite remember.

MR BERGER: Was he a member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Nzauke, do you know him?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember him.

MR BERGER: Perhaps it should be Mzwake?  Did you know someone by that name, Mzwake?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Ndlandla Qindi?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: You don't know anyone by that name?  Surname Qindi?

MR MKHIZE: There is one Qindi that I know.

MR BERGER: Clement Qindi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know Ndlandla Qindi, I didn't know he is Clement.

MR BERGER: A member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was he present in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Who are the people that you saw during the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It was at night, and there were many of us.  There is no one particular person that I can claim to remember quite well.

MR BERGER: And at the stadium, before you left to go and attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it was at night I said, it was still at night, and therefore I am not in the position to say.

MR BERGER: You say you can't name anybody, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: It has been a very long time.  I can only remember the people with whom we were arrested, but I cannot remember the rest.

MR BERGER: The people with whom you were arrested, were they all involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, the majority of them were involved.

MR BERGER: And can you give this Committee the names of those people with whom you were arrested, who were involved in the attack on Boipatong and who were acquitted during the criminal trial?

MR MKHIZE: I do not quite remember.

MR BERGER: If I gave you the charge sheet in the criminal matter, with the list of all the accused, would you be able to go through that list, and identify those people who were involved in the attack and those who were not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think I can remember some of them, but surely not all of them.

MR BERGER: I will make the list available to you and if you could do that exercise please, overnight.   I see that your legal representative is saying that you can't read?  Is there someone who is living with you, who can assist you to read those names?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I can try to get hold of someone who can assist me.

MR BERGER: Thank you.  During the lunch adjournment, I had an opportunity to read the sworn statement of Mr Nosenga, and he says in paragraph 2 of that statement that there were many meetings prior to the massacre, held at the hostel, when discussions were held about killings of ANC members.
	Do you recall those meetings?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did refer to numerous meetings that we held, trying to address the killing of our members.

MR BERGER: You must listen to me Mr Mkhize, I said the killing of ANC members.  Let me read to you what Mr Nosenga says and then you can tell me if you agree or disagree.
	He says there were many meetings held at the hostel, when discussions were held about killings of ANC members.  The kwaMadala hostel was used by the IFP, to launch attacks on residents of the township.  Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: May the question please be repeated?

MR BERGER: He says there were many meetings held at the hostel.  I am asking you whether this is correct or not, when discussions were held about the killings of ANC members?  The kwaMadala hostel was used by the IFP to launch attacks on residents of the township.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Next sentence, Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle, and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct.  He used to come, but I do not remember him being present when such matters as killing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, am I correct to say that you are reading the last sentence of paragraph 2?

MR BERGER: That is so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the question that is put to you, this is what Mr Nosenga says in his statement, Themba Khoza chaired IFP in the Vaal Triangle, and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel.  There is no suggestion that he took part in the discussions to kill people.  That is all that you are being asked at this stage.

MR BERGER: I don't dispute that, I believe is the translation?  I didn't hear anything, I got it from my colleague.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there an extra statement so that we can make it available to the Interpreters?  Very well.

MR BERGER: Just for the record Mr Mkhize, is it correct that you said that that last sentence is correct, that Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, just that sentence, is it correct?

MR MKHIZE: I did not say that.  I said he was a leader of the IFP in the Transvaal, not in the Vaal Triangle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, please listen to the question.  What Counsel is asking you about, he is asking you about the statement made by Mr Nosenga.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You must answer the questions that are being put to you.

MR MKHIZE: May you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: The question is, I want you please to comment on this sentence, is it correct or not correct, Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is a mistake.

MR BERGER: Where is the mistake?

MR MKHIZE: It is not true that he frequented the hostel and that he was Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal.

MR BERGER: Who was the Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal at the time?

MR MKHIZE: The one person I knew to have been Chairperson of everybody or the IFP in the Vaal, was Mr Vanana Zulu.

MR BERGER: And who was his senior within IFP structures?

MR MKHIZE: I would not know, except that he was the one who was high up, above us all.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you do know.  You know that above Mr Vanana Zulu, was Mr Themba Khoza, don't you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know that.

MR BERGER: Well, then why do you waste time and say you don't know?

MR MKHIZE: I am saying here in the Vaal, I am talking about the Vaal.  I know that Khoza was the Senior Supreme, but I am talking about the Vaal.  I don't know what position Mr Zulu was in relation to other people.

MR BERGER: You have just told the Committee that Mr Vanana Zulu was the supreme leader in the Vaal, you said he chaired the IFP in the Vaal, that is the supreme leader, is it not?

MR MKHIZE: I still maintain that is the case.

MR BERGER: And then above him would be Mr Themba Khoza for the Transvaal?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Mr Themba Khoza used to come to the hostel, kwaMadala hostel on a number of occasions?

MR MKHIZE: He did not come often.

MR BERGER: He came to the hostel three days before the massacre, did he not?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what one of your co-applicants says, page 8 of the bundle, paragraph 11.  On the Sunday before the Boipatong massacre, Themba Khoza and Dlamini came to address the meeting of the people in the stadium.
	Other residents of the kwaMadala hostel were present.  Only the men of the kwaMadala hostel were present.  Dlamini was accompanied by a member of the kwaZulu police, Gabelo, who was his bodyguard.  Did that not happen?

MR MKHIZE: No.  Dlamini is actually the one person who used to come to the hostel, but then he was not a frequent visitor, he would come maybe once or twice a week, or maybe one week would lapse without him coming, and he would come thereafter, because he was a resident around here, in Vereeniging.