Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

MS TSEMANE: Now you know whether this is true or not.  If you accept that, you couldn't have said, couldn't have seen that Peter was not a white man, then you'd believe it.  But if you think anybody looking would have immediately seen that Peter was not a white man I think you ought to question this witness about it.

MS TSEMANE: I'm sorry, sir, I just forgot, I did wanted to ask because them, because I know Peter very well, and Peter was really a Coloured, he was not, when you looked at Peter, you wouldn't say you are looking at a white person.  They knew that Peter was working at Score and he was a Coloured.  They had information that they gathered from Sterkspruit.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: My reply is that as I've explained earlier that in that car that we attacked we only saw white people.  What my dear mother explains there that Peter looked like a Coloured.  It is true.  I believe when she says it was a Coloured and as to how the Committee explained to me.  But I earlier said there are those Coloured who look white people.  To the extent that you can't tell the difference whether this person is white Coloured.

MR PRIOR: You see, she's suggesting to you that he didn't look like a white person.  That's what she's just asked you, and, or put to you.  And it's that what you have been asked to comment on.  You've gone right around the question in a big circle, but you haven't answered it.  She's disagreeing with you.  Do you say she's wrong?  Yes or no.  It's very simple, we don't need a long answer, yes or no.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: I've managed, Mr Chairman, I've managed to secure a photograph at very short notice of Mr Peter Schroeder.  I understand he's on the left in the grey suite.  I have another photograph, he's on the right hand side of the photograph.

MS TSEMANE: Can I say something?

MR PRIOR: Yes, sure.

MS TSEMANE: After killing Peter and my father, you left because you knew that you had completed a job.  There would be no white person again coming to Sterkspruit.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The time was up for our operation as our Commander told us.

MS TSEMANE: When you're talking about your Commander, your Commander denied all regarding this incident.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't answer you here because what you are telling me is that, you are not asking me questions, you are telling me what happened, and I'm not able to answer you because you are not asking me questions, you are telling me what happened.

MS TSEMANE: Yes I want to tell me, because there are some things you have been aware of, you might not have been aware of.

MR PRIOR: The question as I understand it, is that after you had killed her father and Peter, you left that place because you had finished what you had gone there to do.  Is that right or wrong.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, that's not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you do any more attacks on that road after this one?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No there were not other attacks.

MS TSEMANE: ...(inaudible)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MS TSEMANE: Did you launch any attacks since 1992 up to now?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The answer was no.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, what was ...(inaudible) question, the one before this one, I couldn't hear it?

MS TSEMANE: Did you launch any other attacks since 1992 up to now?  I thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS TSEMANE

MR MTHEMBU: ...(indistinct), Mr Chairperson.  Mr Makoala, you have mentioned Jabo on page 11 of your annexure to your application form.  Could you explain to this Committee about this Jabo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The Jabo I talked about here is the other name of Dr Zam-Zam, but I've explained that there are other Jabos, they are other Comrades who used the name Jabo, but not in this attack where the Jabo I was talking about was present.

MR MTHEMBU: Are you then telling this Committee that the Jabo you referred to denotes more than one person?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: According to my knowledge the Jabo I am talking about is Dr Zam-Zam, and what I have explained is that there were other Comrades who used the name Jabo, but not the Jabo I was with during the attacks I have talked about.

MR MTHEMBU: Answer my question.  The question is, the Jabo you mentioned here, it is one person or more than one person, Mr Makoala?

MR PRIOR: He's answered you question Mr Mthembu, and it's that its exactly the same as his earlier evidence.  If you're trying to suggest to him that these might be more than one person, he's already given evidence to say that all the, they're, he implied that they were all the same person.  But, go ahead.

MR MTHEMBU: That's all that I wanted to canvass, Mr Chairperson. Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just on that one, Mr Mthembu.  Can I ask the applicant, right at page 12, under the column Lady Grey Ambush, which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Page 11.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, page 11.

CHAIRPERSON: You said 12.

ADV SANDI: Oh thank you, sorry, I said 12, I meant to say page 11.  Which Jabo is this that you are referring to at page 11?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Which operation are you talking about?

ADV SANDI: The Lady Grey Ambush.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question then so that I can answer you?

ADV SANDI: Okay, you have mentioned a Jabo at that page.  Can you see that, can you see the name Jabo at page 11?  You mentioned it ...(intervention)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I can see that.

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned the name at least three times.  Do you see that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I can.

ADV SANDI: Okay, now let's start with the Jabo mentioned under Sterkspruit Hotel attack, can you see that one?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I can see that.

ADV SANDI: Which Jabo is this?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: This is Zam-Zam I have been talking about.

ADV SANDI: You go on to mention the name under the Lady Grey Ambush.  Do you see the name Jabo there?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I can see the name.

ADV SANDI: Which Jabo is that one?  Is that also Zam-Zam, or a different Jabo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I think this is where the error was committed when I wrote my amnesty application, because I have been involved in many operations.  Maybe I confused names here following operations that I was involved in.  I hope this is an error that was committed when I made my amnesty application, but all I know is that Jabo was not present during the Lady Grey Ambush.

ADV SANDI: You mentioned the name of Jabo again, that is under Lady Grey farm attack.  Was Lady Grey attack 2, do you see that one?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I can see that.

ADV SANDI: Which Jabo is that one?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: As I said earlier that, by the time I made my amnesty application, there were so many names in my mind.  And when I sat down and thought well about this I realised that Jabo was not present in this attack.  It was me, Scorpion and Kenny.  The Kenny I am talking about is not Phila Dolo, it is Kenny Modiboloa.

ADV SANDI: So once again you are making a mistake in mentioning the name of Jabo in this particular instance?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Following the circumstances I was under when I made my amnesty application, it is true I was involved in many attacks, and I confused names and I was in a hurry when I made my amnesty application, worrying about the deadline for amnesty.  That is how I came to confuse names.  I started recalling events well when I sat, when I was sitting down at home with the other Comrades when we tried to help one another.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible) about this Jabo whose name you mentioned several times, is that you were in a hurry when you were making this application, hence you even put in a wrong name.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

ADV SANDI: I, on a different matter, I understand from my evidence you were wearing a white hat on the day in question.  Do you recall that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No I was not wearing a white hat.