Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No MK cadres trained in my house.  That would have been grossly irresponsible, at least to my knowledge.

MS HASSEN: Thank you.  Charles further stated that Oupa Seheri was assisted by members of the Mandela United Football Club to retrieve Charles' scorpion stolen at a shebeen and that you were present at the house before they left.  Were you aware of this at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, no, I was not aware of their activities.  I was aware of the fact that Thembiso was using my car, a question which has just arisen here.

MS HASSEN: Okay.  So, you did not try to elicit why so many young men jumped into vehicles and then moved off from your house, including Sis Thembo and my client, Bobo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had no such information that many young men jumped into my car.  My car was in Thembiso's possession.

MS HASSEN: All right.  Charles Zwane denies ever having bombed the Chili's home.  He denies that he killed Finkie Msome and he states that he confessed to this and to other murders only because he was tortured.  Did you believe Charles when he said that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Did I?

MS HASSEN: Did you believe Charles when he said that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am sorry, I do not get the last part.

MS HASSEN: All right.  Did you believe Charles when he said that he was tortured to confess to all these, this arson, to these murders?  In fact, there were nine murders.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Absolutely, I believed that and I saw him breaking down here.

MS HASSEN: I could not help notice that you broke down as well.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was very deeply hurt by that, because I know Charles.  At least, what I knew of him, I did not think he was capable of nine killings.

MS HASSEN: Yes, thank you.  In his confession, furthermore, Charles is alleged to have said that there was a decision to attack the Chili household as a result of the death of a Mandela United Football Club member, Maxwell Madondo.  Do you know anything of this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was a very cruel thing to say.  I know absolutely nothing about that.  I know about the death of Madondo.  To this day I do not know the actual truth and reason why that child, who had gone to school, was killed on his way back from school.

MS HASSEN: All right.  In cross-examination with Mr Vally today, you said that you were associated with the burning of Mrs Chili's house in the media.  Why do you think this was so, especially since my client was convicted for this crime?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly cannot understand why Bobo was convicted of that crime and how could I be associated with the burning of Dudu Chili's house.  As I stated here, I have absolutely nothing against Dudu Chili, I would have had no reason whatsoever to send anybody to do that.  I was as disgusted and hurt as she was when her house was burnt.  I was (...indistinct), because I had gone through a similar experience.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. I put it to you that the possible reason for this could be, because there were so many members of the Mandela United Football Club present at her house before, just before the burning and that this football club was associated with you, at least, their activities were, because you ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Where ... (intervention).

MS HASSEN: ... assisted in their formation.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Sadly, I really would not deny or accept that, because I really do not know why that happened, save what is subsequently heard, that there were disputes between the youths who were in my premises and those at Daliwonga and I do not know why they picked on Bobo.

DR BORAINE: Ms Hassen, you have one more minute.

MS HASSEN: My last submission to you, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I am trying to grapple with the evidence provided here today.  Your house was a shelter for everybody, especially for displaced young men, who came to you looking for schooling, for help, for assistance from running away from this, from the special branch, you were the mother of the nation, you were the guardian of the youth, you were aware of the notorious activities of the members of the club even after it was disbanded, yet you did nothing to stop this.  I put it to you that you, if anybody at all, at that time could stop the activities of these young man, it would have been you.  What do you say to this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I could not have stopped activities outside of my house which I had no knowledge of.  The team was disbanded and the youth continued wearing the uniforms. Perhaps my hindsight now is that it might have been at the, an idea to have taken those uniforms and if they had not continued using those uniforms, there may not have been the perceptions which subsequently were all over.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  I just want to say to you again that they were staying at your house, most of them who stayed at your house were convicted of all these offences and that.  Surely, you could have addressed them whilst they were at your house after having knowledge of these activities.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which ones actually were convicted in my premises and continued staying in my premises?

MS HASSEN: Take my client, for instance, Bobo.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You yourself have said he dispels he has never stayed at my house, but he was in and out.  You are contradicting yourself, Madam.

MS HASSEN: I agree with you, Mrs ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Order.  That is totally unnecessary, please let us retain the dignity of this hearing.  You have already asked your last question.  Please do not push your luck.

MS HASSEN: All right, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MS HASSEN: Thanks.

DR BORAINE: Ms Sita.

MS SITA: I am Kalpana Sita representing Mr John Morgan.  Madam, I will confine my cross-examination only where it relates to my client, so I will not be that long.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I have a problem hearing you properly.

MS SITA: I said that I am only going to confine to, my cross-examination to Mr, where it relates to my client, Mr Morgan.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: All right.

MS SITA: Madam, do you know Maxwell Madondo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Do I?

MS SITA: Do you know Maxwell Madondo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MS SITA: Was he a MK cadre?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, no, he was a young school boy who came with a group of youngsters from Natal.

MS SITA: Did he ever stay at your house, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he did stay at my house.

MS SITA: Did you see the body of Maxwell Madondo at the scene after his murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not.

MS SITA: Well, Mr Morgan testified that he personally drove you to the scene where the body of Maxwell Madondo was lying.  Mr Gift Ntomeni also confirmed this when he testified that he saw you and Mr Morgan at the scene. What is your comment, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is not true.

MS SITA: I did, I put it to you, Madam, that your statement that you were nowhere the scene is not true.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I have just told you my view. I was not there, I was not on the scene.

MS SITA: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you at any stage tell any, some, anybody or refer to Stompie Sepei as a spy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can you bring your thing nearer.  I have a problem hearing you properly.

MS SITA: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you at any stage tell anybody or refer to Stompie Sepei as a spy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not.

MS SITA: Okay.  Mr Morgan testified that the day after the assault on Stompie and the others, he saw Stompie.  He says, I quote,
"He could hardly, he ...",
that is he is referring to Stompie,
"... could hardly pick up his own coffee.  Winnie was there.  She said, John, help that umkwembe.",
which means spy.  What is your response Madam?