Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: . Herefused and I shot at him with my 9 mm pistol. I don't know whether I shot himbecause I only wanted to frighten him. He then surrendered the car and I droveit. Paragraph 8 - I then drove to the Langa taxi rank where we met Nonxuba andMkhumbuzi. They got into the car. Nonxuba then directed me as I drove. Whenwe got to the target and after we had circled the building a few times, I noticedthat it was a church. Paragraph 9 - I pulled the car to the front of the church,with the back facing the entrance. While the car was idling, Makoma and Nonxubagot out and

<UNKNOWN>: assie and I stayed inside the car. While we were waiting, a redcar stopped, blocking our exit.

<UNKNOWN>: assie then threw a molatov cocktail at thecar and I shot one round at the car, causing the car to speed away. More-or-lessat this time, Makoma and Nonxuba came out of the church. I had heard a grenadeexploding and I heard firing inside the church. I knew that people were goingto get killed or injured during the operation. Paragraph 10 - I drove off underinstructions from Nonxuba who was the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of the operation. I droppedNonxuba and Makoma at a house in Ottery and

<UNKNOWN>: assie and I then went to a nearbyscrapyard, to leave the car there. The scrapyard was about two kilometres away.We returned to the house on foot and stayed there until the next morning. Laterthat Sunday night, we saw on the

<UNKNOWN>: NN news what happened inside the church. Thenext morning I left the house with Makoma and went to

<UNKNOWN>: rossroads in a taxi.From

<UNKNOWN>: rossroads, I took the taxi to Macassar. This is the last time that I sawthose guys. I went back to Old

<UNKNOWN>: rossroads from Macassar during the week, andstayed there for about a week until I heard that Makoma had been arrested. Ithen left

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town for the Transkei with a taxi. Paragraph 12 - I was arrestedon the 25th of January 1996 in Tempe,

<UNKNOWN>: loemfontein, while I was being integratedinto the South

<UNKNOWN>: frican National Defence Force.

<UNKNOWN>: t the time I was at the FirstSpecial Service

<UNKNOWN>: attalion. I am currently stationed at 97

<UNKNOWN>: mmunition Depot inDe

<UNKNOWN>: ar. Paragraph 13 - I deeply regret causing the loss of life on the 25thof July 1993 and further causing so many people to be injured and maimed. Iwish to ask the relatives and friends of the deceased and those who were victimsof the attack, to forgive me.

<UNKNOWN>: t the time I was acting under instructions from

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand and I was trained not to question these instructions. Paragraph14 - I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirementsof the

<UNKNOWN>: ct, that the offences in respect of which I am applying for amnestyare offences associated with a political objective, committed in the courseof the conflicts of the past and which are in accordance with the provisionsof Section 20, subsection 2 and subsection 3 of the

<UNKNOWN>: ct and that I have madea full disclosure of all the relevant facts.

<UNKNOWN>: ccordingly I respectfully requestthat the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee grant me amnesty". Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, those are the contentsof the second applicant's sworn statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mlambisa, willyou just stand please. Sisi, swear him in.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: (sworn states)

MSKHAMPEPE: Thank you, you have been properly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Haveyou understood your affidavit which has been read out by your counsel?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I did.

<UNKNOWN>: nd do you agree that that is thetruth?

<UNKNOWN>: nd do you confirm its contents?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: efore we adjourn, I don't know what iscontained in the other affidavit or in the application, because it is not beforeus, but in this affidavit as far as I could gather, it is not clear what thepolitical objective was. I don't know whether it is, perhaps you could pointout where it is mentioned.

MS GOZA: If we could be granted a short timeto ...

<UNKNOWN>: dvocate De Jager, the paragraph 3 of the second applicant's affidavitstates that the applicant was a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: and the affidavit on paragraph6 goes on to state out the instructions that were given to the applicant from

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand.

<UNKNOWN>: nd on paragraph 13, it is specifically stated there, andif I may read from paragraph 13, "

<UNKNOWN>: t the time I was acting under instructionsfor

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand and I was trained not to question these instructions".	We would respectfully submit that those paragraphs read together state the objectivesas is required in Section 20 of the

<UNKNOWN>: ct.

ADV DE JAGER: I think it statesthat he received instructions from

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: and that he carried out instructionsfrom

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , but nowhere is it stated that the objective for the act associatedwith a political objective, that the objective might have been to gain politicalpower or whatever it might be, but you could have a look at it tonight and seewhether you are satisfied.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you can adduce evidence to thateffect?

MS GOZA: We are indebted to the

<UNKNOWN>: hairperson and Mr De Jager, wewill look into the option of actually then leading oral evidence in relationto that particular aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will now adjourn andresume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, are we ready to proceed?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I just wantto - yes Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, but before the matter proceeds, I understand the

<UNKNOWN>: ommitteenow has copies of the application of Mr Thobela Mlambisa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: The mystery of Mr Letlapa Mphlalele appears to have been clearedup. There was a news item in this morning's

<UNKNOWN>: ape Times on page 3 on the bottomleft hand corner, and I will read it. "Former

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: Operations DirectorLetlapa Mphlalele was a guest of the P

<UNKNOWN>: and could not be released to appearat the TR

<UNKNOWN>: 's amnesty hearing in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town yesterday in protest against the TR

<UNKNOWN>: 'slack of objectivity, the P

<UNKNOWN>: Transkei branch said last night. Mphlalele failedto appear as scheduled yesterday with

<UNKNOWN>: assie Mkhumbuzi, Thobela Mlambisa andGcinikhaya Makoma to apply for amnesty in connection with the St James churchmassacre in 1993. The Transkei branch said discussions should be held firstwith the P

<UNKNOWN>: national leaders about the uneven-handedness in which politicalparties, previously involved in the political conflict, are being treated bythe TR

<UNKNOWN>: functionaries." That was a South

<UNKNOWN>: frican Press

<UNKNOWN>: ssociation release.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. In the light of that statement, it is after all only a pressstatement, it is not an official communication.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Directed at the TR

<UNKNOWN>: or directed to the

<UNKNOWN>: mnesty

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No,but I thought I would bring it to your attention Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I would imagine that in due course there would be some official communicationfrom the P

<UNKNOWN>: at their leadership level directed, sent to us about their attitude.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then know whether Mr Mphlalele is goingto pursue his application or not. Is there any light you can throw on that?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goza?

MS GOZA: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, no? Thank you very much.

JUDGE WILSON: Should we re-numberthis

<UNKNOWN>: 1 and number the new affidavit

<UNKNOWN>: 2 ?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.We will renumber the two affidavits. The affidavit of Mr Mlambisa, the firstone should be