Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes.  It was common knowledge that there were many incidents of violence between the ANC and the IFP after the return in that area.

BERNARD MKHIZE: I don't understand your question very well because initially you asked me and I told you that they fought and they left the area.  The only time they were returning back, it's when they were coming to launch attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not what was put to you.  What was put to you was that after some time ANC members returned to your area and pursuant to their return there was an escalation of violence.

BERNARD MKHIZE: The violence was there, was continuously there as I already explained that the violence started in another area closer to ours and it came to our area and then the ANC fled and then the only time they were coming back, it's when they were launching attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is that after they had fled to different areas, they returned to live in your area and as a result of their return to stay in your midst, there was an escalation of violence.  Did that not happen?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, it never happened.  What I know is that there were fights and they fled the place.  The only time they were coming back it's when they were coming to launch attacks.  They were coming from outside to launch attacks in our areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your evidence that the ANC members never returned to your area to stay there?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, they never returned.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  You see, the applicant has given evidence and you've heard his evidence that they were in the area in the 90's - 91, and there were repeated attacks and they lived in the area but that they were not easily identifiable as ANC members but the violence was there between the IFP and the ANC members living in that area.

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, for all I know is that they left, including himself, he left and he never came back.  Those who were inside, who remained inside, he's the one who knows about them because as he said, I cannot easily identify them.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt Mr Sardiwalla?  Are you also confirming the fact that the applicant left the area as a result of the conflict, by virtue of him having been an ANC member?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I will say he was a resident in our area and I do agree that he left the area and they also came to burn down the houses from Mboyi, that's where I said I don't know whether it was on the 26th February or when.  I'm not talking about the whole area, I'm only talking about Mboyi area.  If I can count all these areas and tell you when ANC left those area, then I'll be confused.  The only time they came back is when they came to launch these attacks, but they never left and then came back and stayed.

CHAIRPERSON: What I actually wanted to find out from you is that whether you are confirming that the applicant left the area because of political differences or issues.

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, he did run away because of political reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  And he did come back to the area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, he didn't.  He never came back.

CHAIRPERSON: I think his evidence Mr Sardiwalla, unless there is something else you want out of him, is that he would only return to launch attacks in his area, but he would be coming in from another area.  So he was residing in another area, but he would come to the area to launch attacks on IFP members.

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes, Chairperson, I'm aware of that evidence, but I'm taking him to a different point.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, you may proceed.

MR SARDIWALLA: You indicated that you know the applicant, he is a relative, but you were not too sure of his political leaning except for the fact that he didn't attend your meetings?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Let me repeat.  I thought since he was a resident in our area, I thought that he was an IFP member.  The only time I realised that he wasn't is when he left the place and came to launch attacks on IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: Before, you will remember that you stated that you could tell that he wasn't an IFP member because of what he was saying or the way he was talking.

BERNARD MKHIZE: If you could please repeat that, I don't think I heard that correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Your earlier evidence is that you later realised that he wasn't and IFP member through his speeches, you recall that?  And that is whilst he was still staying in your area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, I don't think this is what I said.  I said that since he was a resident in our area, I thought that he was an IFP member.  The only time I realised, or the only time it became clear is after he left and coming back to launch attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understood his earlier evidence.  He says that "I knew him when he was staying at", well I can't read the name now, "I didn't know his political affiliation because he never used to come to us, but I only realised when they talked that he belonged to another organisation and not the IFP".

BERNARD MKHIZE: I understand, but I think if I was understood that way, it was a mistake.  What I actually meant was that he was still young and he never came to us.

MR SARDIWALLA: You accept that he belonged to another organisation?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, he did show that he was an ANC man, it became clear to me when he came back to launch attacks on IFP.

MR SARDIWALLA: It was also very apparent that in that particular area there was virtual war between IFP and the ANC at the time.

BERNARD MKHIZE: I would like you to repeat that question for me.

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes, during that time it was apparent that there was virtual war between the IFP and the ANC in that area.  I'm talking about the Maqonqo area, Table Mountain area.

BERNARD MKHIZE: The problem is if you're talking about Maqonqo, it's another area.  What I can talk about is my area not Maqonqo area, because it's another area, Maqonqo area.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't Mboyi within Maqonqo?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, Mboyi is just an area under Chief Mapumulo.

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't Maqonqo the bigger are within which Mboyi falls under?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, that's correct.

MR SARDIWALLA: Now will you answer the question that I put to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree that during those years there was violence at Maqonqo?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR SARDIWALLA: And that there were repeated attacks and counter attacks between the IFP and the ANC particularly during the period 1992,1993?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, in 1993 it wasn't escalating, but if you're talking about 1990, 1991, 1992 - yes it escalated those years, not 1993.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but in 1993 we had this attack by the people coming from outside about a week before the children in the bus were attacked, isn't that so?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I think there was an attack, I only have one difficulty about dates.  I'm not sure when, but there was an attack in our area.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you agreed that there was an incident which occurred, you were attacked by ANC members who came from outside the area in February 1993.

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  So having acceded and alluded to that, do you accept that the applicant was part of the ANC and part of the attacks that were being launched in that area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I do agree.

MR SARDIWALLA: Did the IFP ever attack children of the ANC?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, it never happened in our area.

MR SARDIWALLA: What - did you know Makeke?

BERNARD MKHIZE: Yes, I do know him.

MR SARDIWALLA: Was Makeke a senior IFP person in the area?

BERNARD MKHIZE: I will say I was the chairman and he was under me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he was under you, you mean that sometimes he will act as a chairman?

BERNARD MKHIZE: No, he was just an IFP follower or supporter, he didn't have any position.