Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MR BERGER: At 5 minutes to 9 that evening Mrs Oosthuizen, she's a control room security officer, she received a telephonic report from Mr S De Bruto, he was on duty at the North-Eastern Gate, that a radio report had been received by him from a Mr J Maleisi.  Mr Maleisi was on duty at the North Gate and Mr Maleisi said that a group of plus minus 800 people were moving in the direction of the East gate.  Can that be correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I would not deny that.

MR BERGER: Now who is Mr Maleisi?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I object with respect to these questions, I don't see where it's taking us.  This witness testified that he was not there, he did not partake in the massacre, he did not walk with the people.  Now I can't see why these questions should be posed to this witness and what's the relevance thereof?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm asking a question about a particular person who was on duty at a particular gate and with respect to my learned friend he led Mr Mthembu for two purposes, (a) to give evidence in support of his own application and (b) to give evidence in support of the application of all the other applicants.  With respect I submit I'm entitled to question Mr Mthembu on matters which might have a bearing on the applications?

CHAIRPERSON: The issue is not so much what Mr Strydom did, the question is whether what you're asking, is it relevant to the issue of things, that's what you should address us on.

MR BERGER: Indeed I will Chairperson.
	The size of the group, the question about whether Iscor was aware, whether there were people on duty at the gate, whether Mr Mthembu can be believed when he says he doesn't know there was an attack going out past his room are issues relevant to this application.  Yet Mr Mthembu's credibility as a witness is going to be relied upon by the applicants at the end of this case and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How do they rely upon a person who says he was not there, he was not aware of the attack, he did not do anything that is wrong for which he is applying for amnesty.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, his credibility is going to be relied upon as a credible witness to support the applicants.  My learned ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me make it clear that this is not an open ended enquiry, the enquiry must be confined to the issues that are relevant before this Committee.  The first issue is whether there has been full disclosure and whether the acts for which people are applying for amnesty are acts committed with a political motive.  I have been very patient so far but I think it is about time that counsel should confine their cross-examination to the issues that are relevant.  I will allow the question.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'll try and go very quickly.  Do you know Mr Maleisi?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I cannot remember him.

MR BERGER: Where is the North Gate in relation to the Kwamadala main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: As far as I'm concerned I think North Gate is about four or more kilometres from Madala.

MR BERGER: And the East Gate is just outside the entrance to Kwamadala Hostel, is that right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It is inside.

MR BERGER: Inside the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Inside the firm, the hostel is outside.

MR BERGER: So if people were moving in the direction of the East Gate would they be leaving Kwamadala or entering Kwamadala?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, how could they be entering or leaving Kwamadala if they were approaching the East Gate, he said the East Gate was outside Kwamadala, it was outside and Kwamadala was outside of the property.

MR BERGER: The East Gate is on the Iscor premises.

MR LAX: Your original question wasn't ever answered and that was is the East Gate adjacent to Kwamadala?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is the nearest gate.

MR LAX: So all I'm asking is if 800 people were moving in the direction of the East Gate, is it possible to say whether they were moving towards Kwamadala or away from Kwamadala?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: East Gate is behind Kwamadala, a person who is moving from Kwamadala cannot see East Gate.

MR BERGER: Alright.  Mr Nel immediately proceeded to the East Gate and he patrolled along the eastern boundary.  Now according to him he found nothing there and he proceeded to the Kwamadala main gate where he found Mr Steyn and Mr Schneider from Iscor together with you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you were asked at that point whether all the residents were present in the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You said yes.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now this must have been after the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I heard that that took place after the attack.

MR BERGER: Before that you were in your room near the main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Where were you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was in my bedroom, my house number was 0, then from 1 when you go past room 19 with a very big toilet that is inside the building, it's quite a distance.  If I'm not mistaken I think this is the side double to the sides of the hall, a distance from my house to that gate, to that main gate of Kwamadala Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: It's approximately, what, 75 metres?

MR SIBANYONI: If we accept that that's 30 times 2 that's 60 plus 50.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Mr Chairperson, if I'm not mistaken, it is not less than 800 metres from my house to the main entrance of the Kwamadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You must have been very far from the main gate then?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: About 25 times the length of this room?

CHAIRPERSON: He said perhaps 2 times and a half.

MR BERGER: And then he said 800 metres?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we're just putting distance over the ...[indistinct].  It is your evidence that it is not less than 800 metres?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that's what I said.

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial you said that if a siren had been sounded you would have known it?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And if an attack had been launched on Boipatong you would have known it?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Was that evidence the truth?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes it is still true.

MR BERGER: So then the evidence from your co-applicants that a siren was sounded must be a lie because you never heard a siren.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The siren was supposed to be standard but it looks like the people were running away from me because they knew that I was going to tell Iscor though I was not at work on duty at the time, I would tell them that something was happening.  So if there was such a number of people and buildings like that, from the position that I was maybe the siren could have started somewhere else, far away from where I was.   Excuse me Mr Berger, this Kwamadala Hostel had residents of about a thousand and something.  The beds and the houses that were in there were about 144.  This building was big and if this building was in a ...[indistinct] to the other buildings inside the building itself that would make me not to hear the siren.  I am not running away from the truth, I would not say that there was no siren but if perhaps if it was sounded at a place where I was far away from I did not have a friend at the time, everything that was happening there would happen but the people would know very well that there was this person who had been troubled if the people do not tell the truth.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you evidence which you confirmed as correct was if a siren had been sounded "I would have heard it" meaning "I never heard it" so therefore no siren was sounded.  That was your evidence which you say is still the truth?