Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

MR STANDER: I also have a problem with my learned friend's method of questioning.  The witness told us pertinently that on several occasions he was arrested and assaulted.  It is so that he did not say that Erasmus was present ever time that he was assaulted but he said that the security police were present on every occasion.   	I pertinently did not ask him about every occasion because otherwise we would still be busy with this tomorrow afternoon, with this specific evidence.
	That is why I made an exception of one and asked the witness what happened on other occasions and he said that he was assaulted on other occasions.  If my learned friend now wants me - wanted me to have led him on every specific occasion that this happened then surely I would have done this.
	But at the beginning of this hearing I was told to keep the matters as brief as possible, and it's on this basis that I've done this and it's unfair to blame this witness for this now.  And what is more, you have already from your side, pointed out to my learned friend that he or that the witness has already said that he was assaulted on various occasions ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, let us just make this short.  Was he assaulted several times by Erasmus or the police?
	Can you just tell us whether Erasmus assaulted you on several occasions?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is true, Erasmus assaulted me.  He assaulted me all the time when I was there.  When I was fetched to Fountain he took part in the assault.  He assaulted me because I didn't want to be his informer.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he do to you?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Explain again, the method they used.

ADV DE JAGER: No, I don't want to know the method they used.  What did Erasmus do to you?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I don't know how to answer this question Sir.  He assaulted me with his fists and kicked me.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Is that your complete answer to the question that Commission de Jager put to you on how you were assaulted by Erasmus?  Is that your complete answer, you don't want to add anything?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: We didn't hear the answer that came through.

INTERPRETER: The speaker was not audible enough.

MR VISSER: Will you just repeat your answer for the record please Mr Mzuzwana.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: There's nothing I can add on that, that's my reply.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you - let me rather ask you this way, did you complain to anybody about the assaults of Mr Erasmus on you?  Lay a charge against him, institute a civil claim against him?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Like who?

MR VISSER: Like Mr Erasmus. Did you charge him, did you lay a charge against him?  Did you ask your attorney to address a letter to him to claim damages from him or anything of the kind?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: No.

MR VISSER: Why not?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Even if I tried to lay a charge against him, he was not going to be arrested.  He was part of the government or he was the government.

MR VISSER: But you could have claimed damages from him couldn't you, for his assaults on you?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I tried to lay charges on those assaults but even today there is no progress.  I saw that it was useless to lay a charge against the police.

MR VISSER: Are you saying now you did in fact lay charges, criminal charges against Mr Erasmus?  Is that what you're saying?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I said I didn't do that, to lay charges against Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Well, I want to put it to you that Mr Erasmus will deny your allegations that he ever assaulted you.
	Mr Chairman, I'm sorry ...[intervention]

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I didn't say Erasmus shot me, I said he assaulted me.

MR VISSER: There's no translation coming through to me Mr Chairman. I don't know whether you're hearing something.  I didn't hear the last reply.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I said, if Mr Erasmus is going to say he denies taking part in the assault, he knows that in his heart that he did take part.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you'll allow me - I have no further questions but I do have to make one remark because it's appropriate to make it now.  I don't know where this fits in, in the amnesty application of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai.
	Be that as it may, I think I've covered what I have to cover and I have no further questions.  Just a moment Mr Chairman, if you will allow me a moment?  Yes, I am terribly sorry Mr Chairman, there's just one further statement I have to make to him.
	You did mention further names: Meningwa, Mamome, and then you mentioned Swanepoel, Terreblanche and Ngo and Motsamai.  As far as Mr Meningwa is concerned, will you just explain to the Committee why you mentioned his name.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: He was working with these people and then he used to be there when I was fetched from my home.

MR VISSER: Is that the only reason why you mentioned Meningwa's name, that he was present when you were fetched from your home?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: And Mamome, you mentioned Mamome.  Why did you mention him?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: They worked together.

MR VISSER: Is the reason why you mentioned Mamome the fact that he worked together with whom?  Meningwa?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I said all these person whom I mentioned took part if I was arrested.

MR VISSER: Is that your complete answer?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Well, I'm going to put it to you nevertheless, that Meningwa, Mamome as well will deny that they assaulted you at any time, if that is your allegation which is not quite clear.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Even they may deny that or dispute that, God knows what happened.

MR VISSER: Just let's stay on earth for a moment.  Did they assault you or didn't they, Meningwa and Mamome?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, they did.

MR VISSER: On how many occasions did ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to ask you a question, it's a fairly straightforward question.  Did they assault you or didn't they and that's Meningwa and Mamome?  Why did you take about five minutes to consider the answer?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Is it because the question which is asked by the lawyer, is because I said all these people took part in the assault.  I did not know as whether I'm making a mistake to take such a long time to answer that question.

MR VISSER: Or are you saying that you're not at all certain today as you sit there, whether either Meningwa or Mamome did in fact assault you?  Is that not the truth?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I don't know Mr Chairperson, you are still asking me the same question.  These people took part in all occasions when I was arrested and they took part in the torture.

MR VISSER: Alright.  What did Mr Meningwa do to you that you can remember?  Please tell us on occasion and what Mr Meningwa did to you if it's at all possible for you to remember, if it's not then say so.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: How should I put it or what kind of assault are you talking about?

MR VISSER: Mr Mzuzwana, I'm not the one giving evidence about assaults, you are.  You told this Committee that you were assaulted by a group of people of whom Erasmus, Meningwa and Mamome were at one or more occasion a part and that they took part in assaulting you, so it's no good asking me how you were assaulted, I'm asking you.  How did Meningwa assault you if at all and when was it?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I don't remember the dates but they used to kick me and hit me with their fists, that's the way they used to assault me.

MR VISSER: I'm not talking about they, I'm talking about Mr Meningwa.  If you cannot remember how he assaulted you or when he assaulted you or on what occasion, please say so.  I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about Mr Meningwa.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Meningwa kicked and hit me with his fists.  In many cases when I was arrested, taken from my home to Fountain Street.

MR VISSER: And is it the same with Mr Mamome?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is correct.