Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: In our profession we would refer to him as Father as he then was.  Father Verryn, as he then was, who is now the Bishop. You had made false allegations about Father Verryn having had sexual intercourse with a 14 year old man or having sexually abused a 14 year old man.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: Not no.

MR JOSEPH: No, the way you ask your question.  I am the one who made the allegation ... (intervention).

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: ... by Mrs Mandela's order that Paul raped me.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Cebekhulu, listen to the question.  For whatever reason you made the allegation and whose ever to blame for the allegation, I understand your evidence to be the allegation that Father Verryn had sodomised the young man to be untruthful.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: I beg your pardon, that, and in regard to Stompie,  you never made any allegations about Stompie?  I am sorry.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: You never made any allegations about Stompie?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: No.  I beg your pardon.  In regard to yourself, you had made allegations that Father Verryn had slept with you.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And those allegations were false?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Is that correct?  Mr Chairman, I, Mr Chairman, I do not propose to get involved in the details of these allegations.  It seems to me from reading the subpoena that that activity is not regarded as a gross human violation.  It certainly has to do with the general credibility that involves serious cross-examination. I take the lead from you, Mr Chairman, that we will be gentle on the victim.  So, I leave the matter ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR JOSEPH: For how long did they keep Stompie?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: About an hour, 45 minutes.

MR JOSEPH: About 45 minutes?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Joseph, I do not think your question will show in the record.

MR JOSEPH: Should I repeat the question?

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: The question is for how long, on the 29th of December, did the people you have referred to assault Stompie in the home of Mrs Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Forty five minutes.

MR JOSEPH: Forty five minutes.  What happened to Stompie on that day after he was assaulted?  Was he taken anywhere, was he left somewhere or did you leave the room where he was assaulted?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: What happened?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: The doctor came.

MR JOSEPH: Did the doctor come the same day or did he come the following day?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: The following day.

MR JOSEPH: The 29th is the day of the assault ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: ... the 30th is the following day, the 30th is the day that the doctor arrived?  Correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Then the Commissioners can infer or am I correct in saying this, that after the assault on the day of the 29th, the young man was left in the house of Mrs Mandela?  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: No, what happened to him?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Stompie was beaten on 29 ... (intervention).

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And then they, we did not go, I went and see the doctor the next day.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And then the doctor did not come the next day, he came the third day, because I remember the day we beat Stompie, we did not go and see the doctor.

MR JOSEPH: All that concerns me is that after Stompie was assaulted, did he remain on the premises of Mrs Mandela's house or was he taken away?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He remain at Mrs Mandela' house.

MR JOSEPH: Yes, and on the day he was assaulted and after the assault was he rendered any medical assistance or treatment?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: By whom?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Dr Asvat.

MR JOSEPH: On the same day, on the 29th?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Just, maybe you have to put your question.  Order please.

MR JOSEPH: On the day of the 29th when Stompie was assaulted, I understand your evidence that Dr Asvat did not come to the house.  I talk about the 29th of December.  Am I correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: The next day, did Dr Asvat come to the house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: May I just get some clarity about matters which have nothing to do with the evidence.  Mr Cebekhulu, Mr Cebekhulu ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: ... is my evidence being translated to you in Zulu?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I think that would be better.

MR JOSEPH: Are you happier like that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, order.  Just give him a chance, he is counting on his fingers to try and get the dates, I think, and he is still calculating.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Cebekhulu.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yebo.

MR JOSEPH: Let me help you this way.  On the 30th of December, that is the day after the assault, did you go with Mrs Mandela to the consulting rooms of Dr Asvat?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: You mean the day in which he was beaten, no.  We went the following day.

MR JOSEPH: Do not do this to me.

CHAIRPERSON: It is one of the official languages.

MR JOSEPH: If anybody can hear me, I can hear nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got it on channel two?

MR JOSEPH: Yes.  Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you all right now?  Can you hear yourself?

MR JOSEPH: I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR JOSEPH: Now, on the 30th of December, Mrs Mandela took you to see Dr Asvat.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And you went to see Dr Asvat to enable Dr Asvat to examine you.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, what was the purpose of the examination, to ascertain what?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He say I being raped by Paul Verryn.

MR JOSEPH: And what did Mrs Mandela want of Dr Asvat?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Please repeat your question.

MR JOSEPH: You mention that or your evidence is that it was mentioned to Dr Asvat that you had been raped by a particular man.  What did Mrs Mandela want of Dr Asvat relating to this rape?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I do not know.

MR JOSEPH: You do not know?  You do not know, is that your answer?  Did Mrs Mandela want Dr Asvat to examine you in order to ascertain from a medical point of view whether something had happened?

MR MPOFU: Well, Mr Chairperson, I do not think we change to leading questions ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MPOFU: ... purely because we cannot obtain a proper answer from the witness.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Cebekhulu, can you continue answering in English as you have done and then I do not have to go through this difficulty?  Are you happy to answer in English?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Okay.  It is yes, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR JOSEPH: When a person visits a doctor they usually go there for a reason.  Mrs Mandela took you to the doctor.  Can you remember the reason why Mrs Mandela took you to the doctor?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What was the reason?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was for the rape.

MR JOSEPH: For the rape.  Now, what do doctors do when they are told that there is an allegation that a person has been raped?  What are they going to do?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They examine the person who has been raped.

MR JOSEPH: They examine the person.  Did Dr Asvat examine you?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: He did examine you and what did he find?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He did not find anything.

MR JOSEPH: Okay.  You then went back to Mrs Mandela's house.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.