Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that the TRC is not ready to argue the application?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, Chairperson, that is the position.  The TRC is not in a position to argue the application at this stage.  I am still communicating with the National Legal Officer of the TRC, Adv Paddy Prior in Cape Town.  There is an information that I expect him to furnish me which information, part of it Chairperson, has been requested by the applicants.  It is upon me receiving that information, that we will be in a position to go on, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection if this application stands down?  No objection, yes, very well.  Is there any objection?

MR BERGER: No objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well, the application will then stand down until the TRC is ready to argue the matter.   Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, before we call our first witness, we have a document which we would like to hand in as Exhibit BB.  It is, you will recall Chairperson from Exhibit T we sent out numerous letters to amongst others, Iscor, we have received a reply from Iscor, and we would like to hand that bundle in as Bundle BB.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you received a copy of this document?  Have you?  All right, okay, this will be Exhibit BB, all right.  Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Sorry Judge, I am getting instructions from all over the show at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: But where is the seat where the witnesses are going to sit?

MR BERGER: That was what we were also thinking about, we thought perhaps it should be on our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Adv Thomas has just arrived as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Could perhaps either, I suppose you want to have an eye contact with the witness, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Perhaps if the witness could sit on the corner, on the edge and face you, we will be able to have eye contact, and we will all move up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because otherwise what you can do, you could move onto the edge so that the witness comes more towards the other side, but I will from this position, we will have enough view, sufficient view of the witness.

MR BERGER: Ms Cambanis says that she will sit behind for the time being, and then we will shuffle chairs as we go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, okay.  Perhaps what we should do during the break, could we organise an extra chair so that they can sit whilst waiting for their turn.

MS THOMAS: Chairperson, I was wondering if this is an opportune time for me to place myself on record and to introduce myself to the entire Committee.  I am acting here on behalf of the ANC, them being an interested party in these proceedings, and needless to mention Mr Chairperson, that I arrived late because not familiar with this place, I got horribly lost, but ultimately one manages to find the place.  My name is Lindi Thomas from the Pretoria Bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, are you representing the ANC in these proceedings or only in the application?

MS THOMAS: In the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  The request of the TRC, that application has stood down until hopefully at half past eleven, when the matter will then be argued, okay.

MS THOMAS: I do understand that Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR LAX: If you can just switch off that microphone please, thank you.

MR BERGER: Sorry about that Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is everyone reasonably comfortable?

MR BERGER: Yes, it looks like it.  Chairperson, we gave our learned friends today a short list of witnesses who we intended starting with.  The first few names on the list, unfortunately the witnesses haven't arrived, so we are going to start of with Mr Wilson Baloyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: He was a name that we gave yesterday, so I beg leave to call Mr Wilson Baloyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Would you please get him connected please.  Mr Baloyi, what language do you speak?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Ii do speak English and Zulu, but I am Shangaan.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you like to give your evidence in?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I will attempt to speak Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Please give us your full names?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am Machihlile Wilson Baloyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Please spell that name?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Machihlile.

CHAIRPERSON: Baloyi.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Wilson Baloyi.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Baloyi, could you tell the Committee where you lived on the 17th of June 1992?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I resided at 732 Bafokeng Street.

MR BERGER: In Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: In Boipatong, yes.

MR BERGER: And at the moment, where are you living?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am still residing there.

MR BERGER: In June of 1992, just before the massacre, who were you living with?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: On the 17th of June, when we were attacked, I was at home.

MR BERGER: No, no, but let's talk about before the attack, during the beginning of June, who was living with you at home?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I stayed with my children.

MR BERGER: Their names?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: My wife, Mary Baloyi and Pitso Baloyi.  Pitso was a Policeman.  There is also Silo Baloyi as well as Howard Baloyi and Mqapi Baloyi as well as Bertha Baloyi, as well as Cleopatra's mother, Mandu Baloyi.

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just repeat the last name please, I just didn't catch the last person.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The last person was Mandu Baloyi.

INTERPRETER: Sorry, did you say Mandu or Mandlu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Mandu Baloyi.

MR BERGER: How old was Pitso at the time?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot recall, but they are now grown up.  He went for Police training when he was 17 years old.

MR BERGER: So he was an adult?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we are all adults.

MR BERGER: And Silo?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Silo is younger than Pitso.  I cannot really  estimate their age.

MR BERGER: And Howard?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Howard is 17 years old.

MR BERGER: At the moment?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  He only applied for his identity document just now.

MR BERGER: And Mqapi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Mqapi is around 16 years old.

MR BERGER: And Cleopatra?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: She must be 12 or 13, I do not know the ages off by heart.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just a minute.  What did you say is the name of, is her name, is it, I thought you said Cleopela?  What is her name?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Cleopatra.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, I see.  All right.

MR BERGER: And Mandu is Cleopatra's mother?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.  Mandu must be over 37 years.

MR BERGER: Mr Baloyi, I want to take you back to the 17th of June 1992.  Is there anything that happened that you witnessed before the massacre?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Firstly at about five o'clock, I was telephoned by Father Patrick.  He said it seemed as if the people from kwaMadala hostel are going to attack Boipatong or Bophelong.

INTERPRETER: He wants to know whether he can proceed with his evidence?

MR BERGER: Mr Baloyi, did you say Bophelong or Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is what he told me, he said it seemed they were going to attack on that day.

MR BERGER: Mr Baloyi, I wasn't sure whether you said he said they were going to attack Boipatong or he said they were going to attack Bophelong.  What did he say to you?