Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR LEBEA: You are not wrong.  What I am trying to explain here is that all items repossessed were recovered by the police and among the things that were recovered by the police, or among the things that were repossessed, let me give an example, there were binoculars among those things and those binoculars were not recovered.  We do not know even today what happened to them, that is why I'm saying and the things that we repossessed, the police discovered all.

CHAIRPERSON: If we follow your evidence up to this juncture, you were injured whilst you were wrestling for the firearm with Mr van Tonder.  That is your evidence, isn't it?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you got to the safe house or where your destination, you were so weak that you became unconscious, I'm still following, I suppose, if I say so.  Would I be right?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were taken in the vehicle which was taken from the van Tonders to hospital?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, before you were taken to hospital, after sustaining this injury, were you in a position to make an inventory of what you repossessed from the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: No, we did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you still come with the answer which I warned you against, that everything was recovered by the police when you have no idea what it was?  How could you come with that, because you see why I'm asking you, in one breath you are asked the same question, you say all items were recovered by the police.  She persists with the question, you say some items were recovered by the police and I do not know what happened to them.  What is that?  We don't know where we're standing and you have been asked this question for the 10th time, I've been making count, because the bench was also asking you that.  Please assist us, we want to know and be honest in your answers, there's no trap for you, because we are not making progress.  You change your answer in the same breath.  Where are we getting?  You may proceed Ms Mtanga.  Please assist us.

MS MTANGA: Mr Lebea, will I be correct to perhaps conclude that some of the items that you robbed were not recovered by the police but you as an applicant here today, you don't know what happened to them?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

ADV SANDI: Just to take that one a bit further.  When did you become aware that there were certain items which had not been recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: I became aware in court.

ADV SANDI: Did you take any steps to inquire from your comrades as to what could have happened to those items?

MR LEBEA: No steps taken, but I just asked King.  We asked each other but there was nothing further to do.

ADV SANDI: Did King, when you asked him, did he agree that there were some items that were not before the Court?

MR LEBEA: He did not agree.

ADV SANDI: Please explain that.  What do you mean?  Did he say you are wrong to think that there are items that have not been recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: For an example, among those things there was something like a - there was something like a camera lens, we used it to reconnoitre the target and that was among the
repossessed items and that was not placed before the Court and that is basically what I was referring to, but ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: But that wasn't taken from the van Tonders because you had it before you robbed them, it was your own property.

MR LEBEA: Yes, it was my thing.

ADV SANDI: But were you the only one amongst the members of your group who was of the view that some items were not before the Court?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I was the only one.

ADV SANDI: Tell us where was each item recovered by the police?  Where was the jewellery recovered from?  Who was found in possession of the car by the police, etc?

MR LEBEA: I do not know what happened, what was recovered where and how.

ADV SANDI: What exactly were you orders in regard to distribution?  What did you say must be taken to who and where?  What were you - did you give and specific orders or did you just say these things must be taken to different places?

MR LEBEA: I did not give specific orders, I just issued out an order that the goods should not be placed at one place, they should be placed at different places.

ADV SANDI: Did you subsequently learn as to whether your order had been complied with?

MR LEBEA: I would not say my order was listened to because immediately after issuing out such an order, I was taken to the hospital, before the order was executed.

ADV SANDI: But during the time you were appearing in court, didn't you have occasion to talk to your colleagues and ask:  "Did you do what I told you to do?  Did you distribute these things?"

MR LEBEA: I talked to them at court.

ADV SANDI: Just on a different issue now.  Who was representing you in court?

MR LEBEA: We did not have anybody to represent us.

ADV SANDI: Did you make any contact with Themba Ncapai after you had been arrested?

MR LEBEA: We did not have contact with him at that time.

ADV SANDI: Did you subsequently make any contact with him at all, at any stage later?

MR LEBEA: Yes, there was.

ADV SANDI: Where was that?

MR LEBEA: It was in prison.

ADV SANDI: What did happen?  Did he come to see you there?

MR LEBEA: We did not meet, he did not manage to meet with us because he went to Groot Vlei.

ADV SANDI: I thought you had just said you met him in prison, you saw him in prison?  You had no contact with him after that?

MR LEBEA: ...(indistinct)

ADV SANDI: I didn't get the answer.

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain is that we met in prison but he did not get us - he did not find us at Groot Vlei and it was when we were already released, when he met us here in Bloemfontein.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage later have an opportunity to speak with him and give him some kind of a report regarding the execution of an order he had given to you?

MR LEBEA: May you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: Did you ever give him a report about this attack?  I'm talking about Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: Sir please bear with me, I did not catch Themba Ncapai's name.  After the operation, we did not meet with Themba Ncapai, we never met with Themba Ncapai.

ADV SANDI: Did you send any request to the PAC or any person in APLA to try and arrange legal representation for you whilst you were going through the criminal trial in court?

MR LEBEA: The PAC was aware of the situation but we did not request any assistance.

ADV SANDI: Were you interested to be legally represented in court?  What was your attitude in regard to the question of representation?  Did you want to do your own - to conduct your own case?

MR LEBEA: The intention was to represent ourselves.

ADV SANDI: Was any report given to anyone in the echelons of APLA about this incident, or even the PAC for that matter?

MR LEBEA: Yes, there is someone.

ADV SANDI: Who was that?

MR LEBEA: It's Letlapa Mphahlele.

ADV SANDI: Where and when was that report given to Letlapa?

MR LEBEA: The person we gave the report to is Happy Mphahlele.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but when and where did you give him the report?

MR LEBEA: I have a request to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR LEBEA: I'm not feeling well.

CHAIRPERSON: Would an adjournment, because I see it's just about five to One, if we can adjourn for 45 minutes, have lunch, you would be better, or we'll look at the situation then when we resume.

ME LEBEA: I believe so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment now and reconvene at quarter to two.  That is for 45 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, how does the applicant feel now?  Is he in a position to proceed?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, he's in a position to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just establish that from him personally?  Mr Lebea, how do you feel now?