Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not go inside.  There were other comrades outside who were not part of the interrogation, I was just chilling around with them.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not the only person outside?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No.

ADV BOSMAN: I just want to interfere please.  Did you hear any loud music being played?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: There was music but only normal level.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you hear any screams?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not recall hearing screams.

ADV BOSMAN: You heard the evidence of Mr Mphoreng, yesterday he testified in what manner these victims were tortured.  Does it surprise you then that you did not hear screams?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It does not surprise me because when these people were captured they were six captured by one person.  It would not surprise me because even when they were captured there were six captured by one person and it was about past two to three in the afternoon.

ADV BOSMAN: But you heard Mr Mphoreng testifying that he used a pliers and applied it to the private parts of the victims, would you not have expected screams?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: There is a possibility that when a person is being tortured with a pair of pliers would scream, such a possibility exists that he would be ordered not to scream.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.  ... (indistinct)

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

MR BRINK: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, any re-examination?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlasa today with hindsight, looking and examining this particular event, what would be your message, if any anyway,
be to the families of the victims or how do you look at the whole incident and what can you say perhaps to the families or to the nation as a whole?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I would start first by saying the conflict of the past between Black organisations was an unfortunate incident.  As members of AZAPO we did not perceive Black people as our enemies, we knew that we were fighting White people.  The loss of life, Black man's life, is something that disturbed us a lot, that is why we also took so long to decide upon the life of a Black person.  Therefore I'm saying please forgive me, I have come before this committee to tell the only truth, to tell what I know.  If there is anything that I did not know, it's not because I'm hiding it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I haven't got any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just ask him.  Do you know where the Shawella beer hall is?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I know where it is.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is that beer hall from the spot where you say you shot these people?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It can be metres, not a kilo, but metres.

CHAIRPERSON: About how many metres, could it be from the wall behind me up to that wall or whatever distance you can, please indicate?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It's can be 20 - 25 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Is there any fixed particular object at the spot where you shot these people?  It may be a difficult question but I'm trying to find out whether you shot them, where you shot them was next to a toilet or next to something, a house or an old house?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: There were electric pylons but I have indicated that it was a hill but there was nothing fixed except those electric pylons.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is why I asked you that questions because on the, some of the facts accompanying the (indistinct) they say they were shot at a beer hall so I just wanted to see whether perhaps that description for convenience or a matter of preciseness.  So you say it was about 25 metres from a beer hall, from the beer hall in Shawella?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from my question regarding to the beer hall?

MR TLOUBATLA: Nothing, no Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
	Shall we have the next witness Mr Tloubatla?  You are excused Mr Hlasa, you can stand down please.
WITNESS EXCUSED