Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

MR KOOPEDI: We are ready to proceed.
	Please state your full names.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Ramogare Gordon Mahuma.

CHAIRPERSON: For my benefit can you just spell the names?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: R-A-M-O-G-A-R-E, Ramogare.  G-0-R-D-O-N, Gordon.  The surname: M-A-H-U-M-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are you prepared to take the oath?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Do sit down.

MR KOOPEDI: May we proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.
	Mr Mahuma, do you know the applicants before this Committee?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I know them.

MR KOOPEDI: How do you know them?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were members of our ANC Youth League Interim Committee.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there is evidence before this Committee to the effect that they are applying for amnesty for the killing or two people who were once residents of Kutsaong, can you confirm that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I know that.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now you've stated that they were members of your Youth League in the area, did you hold any position within the Youth League?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I was a Secretary of the Youth League.

MR KOOPEDI: Now if you were a secretary then, you would definitely be the person to know who was a member at that stage, is that not correct?

CHAIRPERSON: You were the Secretary of what Youth League and where?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I was the Secretary of the Interim Youth League in Kutsaong.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the Interim Youth League?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: It was an interim structure before the actual launch of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.
	Now there is evidence before this Committee that the applicants at some stage broke away from the ANC Interim structure or ANC Youth League Interim structure at that stage, do you know anything about that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: There is no such a thing.

MR KOOPEDI: So what you are saying is they did not belong to any break-a-way group?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, was there ever a break-a-way group in Kutsaong from the ANC structures, during that time, during the time of the Interim structures?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: There was no break-a-way structure.

MR KOOPEDI: So you most certainly deny that the applicants here ever belonged to a break-a-way structure because there was never a break-a-way structure?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I deny that.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, the applicants have stated here that there was a group of thugs terrorising the community around that period of time, do you know anything about that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, there were a group of thugs at that time who were acting against the comrades in our area.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the names, KK and Bafino, do they ring a bell?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I know these two names.

MR KOOPEDI: How do you know them?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were one of the thugs that gave us difficulties in our area.

MR KOOPEDI: Did they belong to a particular group or were they just the two people giving you problems?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were just people, they did not belong to any specific group.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, have you ever had problems with these people, yourself personally?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, they've once harassed me and pointed me with a firearm.  They told me that we as comrades don't give them a chance to go about their activities of robbing people and soforth.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there is evidence before this Committee that in fact the activities of these people were reported to the police but it appeared as if no action was taken, can you confirm that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: That's correct Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now I'd like to take you to a date, there is evidence before this Committee that during September 1991, you and others were supposed to go to a meeting in Krugersdorp, do you know anything about that?  Can you remember that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I remember that clearly.  On that day I went to comrade Hendrik van Rooyen to tell him that we had to go to a meeting in Krugersdorp but he told me that he won't be able to attend that particular meeting because there was some issue at hand about these thugs that he had to attend to.

MR KOOPEDI: Did he tell you what, what was to be done?  What did he mean by attending to it?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: He told me that these thugs that were terrorising everybody, they injured on of our comrades on Saturday night and therefore they want to try and to and fetch them wherever they are and bring them back to the community that would decided thereafter what to do with them.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Who told you this, who were you talking to?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I was talking to Hendrik van Rooyen.

MR KOOPEDI: He is one of the applicants here.  Do you know that he is here, he is one of the applicants?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, he is here, I can see him.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you talk to anyone about this, did you tell anyone about this after you had spoken to him and parted with him?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I told some of our committee members and then they said they are keen to go to Krugersdorp and therefore comrade Hendrik must come and tell the committee as to what happened in Bekkersdal thereafter.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  When you came back from Krugersdorp or at any other stage, did you hear anything from Hendrik?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Hendrik told me that they did go to Bekkersdal and manage to find these thugs and attempted to take them but they retaliated and therefore they killed them in defence.

MR KOOPEDI: The correct interpretation would have been: "They defended themselves" and not: "retaliated".  If the records could reflect that, with due respect to the interpreters.  Thank you.
	Now after he had reported this matter to you, that is after coming back from Bekkersdal, did you discuss this matter with anyone else, did you report this to any of your comrades?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I reported this to the committee.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the killing of the two deceased persons by the applicants here, in your opinion, would you say that the killing was politically motivated?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: According to me yes, it's politically motivated because these thugs were interfering with the comrades who were trying to bring law and order in our community.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.
	Sir, do I understand you correctly in saying that it was necessary for the community at that stage to stop both the deceased in whatever they were doing, is that correct?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't understand your question Sir.

MR STEENKAMP: You were saying they were harassing the community and the applicants testified yesterday they harassed the community, they were actually terrorising the community, so what I'm trying to ask you is, at any cost was it necessary for you and the community to stop these people?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: The community tried by all means to report people of this sort who were terrorising the community.

MR STEENKAMP: And then ultimately what happened, it was alleged that both the deceased were then responsible for the killing of one of the other comrades, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry, Mr Chairman.
	An attack on another person.

INTERPRETER: He does not understand the Tswana interpretation, we'll try to go back to Sotho.

MR KOOPEDI: He's only asking that the question be repeated and in Tswana.

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

MR STEENKAMP: Is it correct Sir, that the information was received at that stage that both the deceased were responsible for an attack and the injuring of another comrade, is that correct?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr John Mokome.