Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No it did not worry me because I would give people an amount of R2 - R3000 whenever they wanted to leave the country and I'd already calculated out that the money will be sufficient, the money we were going to get there.
ADV. BOSMAN: How would have calculated that, did you know how much money was going to be in the security van?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: We went to the mines and enquired from the employees as to how do they earn and how many are they per day and this led me to realise that there would be sufficient money at that time.
ADV. BOSMAN: Oh I see so it was the payroll that you were going to get hold of, it was the payroll for the mine that was being transported?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just sorry before I ask Advocate Motata, I see from the charge sheet on page 48 that the amount stolen was R7220,00 so if you were successful and got away with it, you would have got about R950?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I noticed that.

CHAIRPERSON: And isn't that small change?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes of course it is small change.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata do you have any questions to ask?
ADV. MOTATA: Yes about two Chairperson, thank you.
	Malefane, at the welcome party when you met Mabena and he requested you to give him money and a vehicle, after the getting the money where were you supposed to meet him?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was supposed to meet me at my home.
ADV. MOTATA: Now you decided to repossess on the 15th July.  When was he supposed to come to your home?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I was going to notify him and ask him to come through.
ADV. MOTATA: When you met at Mothopeng's place did you know where he lived, that is Mabena?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes he told me where he was staying.
ADV. MOTATA: From a question from a colleague of the panel here you said you had asked the mine employees how much they earned, that is per day and this Fidelity Guard van was to bring in the payroll, did I understand you correctly?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, sir.
ADV. MOTATA: And in your evidence you said that, to ask that you went there about twice to reconnoitre the place, do you recall that?  That is to Stilfontein mine.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, sir.
ADV. MOTATA: Now in asking these people, how many people did you ask or how many employees were there at the Stilfontein mine?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was quite a number of people.
ADV. MOTATA: Please assist us because you mentioned here that prior to this incident you had assisted people, the youth in particular and you had given about R3000.  Now for you to decide that you were going to repossess money brought in by the Fidelity Guards, you must have had a figure in mind because you had to share equally, that is one eighth per person, you get that?  And now to repossess how much did you expect to repossess that would assist the PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I expected a lot of money, far more than the figure that's stated here.
ADV. MOTATA: Were you told that it's money to pay approximately how many people, a million, a thousand people and how much would a person as you had found out would have earned had the money reached timeously?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: They do not earn equal wages.
ADV. MOTATA: Yes that we do understand but you had an occasion to ask the people around, then you formulated the idea that you should repossess, would I be wrong in so assuming?  Because want I want from you Mr Malefane, is for you to assist us, approximately how much was one person even if there were not earning equally, was one person earning at Stilfontein mine?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Some were earning R500, R600 onwards.
ADV. MOTATA: Now you had a figure in mind, did you make elaborate arrangements by reconnaissance about this security van, the Fidelity Guard van?  How much, how you were going to ambush and repossess the money they were carrying?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, sir.
ADV. MOTATA: When was that done because you have only told us about your visitation to the mine on two occasions only, you haven't told us this far about the Fidelity Guard van.  What did you do and when?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Firstly, we went in the morning and we saw it and saw where it parks and secondly we saw where it parks again.  On both occasions we saw the van and where it parks, that's how we reconnoitred the place as far as the van is concerned.
ADV. MOTATA: Was it before the visitation and the general enquiries from the mine workers or after you had done that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: As soon as the van had left we went around to talk to the people, as soon as it had left we would go and enquire around from the people.
ADV. MOTATA: Were these mine workers paid weekly, fortnightly or monthly?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Fortnightly.  They just get paid daily but when we went there it was a fortnight.
ADV. MOTATA: When you did you not come to realise that some were paid on a daily basis?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I asked around.
ADV. MOTATA: And when you spoke to the mine workers to determine the amount that would be brought, did you speak to people who were being paid fortnightly?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: The one person told me that he was going get paid today, the other one said the following day and the other one said he would be getting the money on the fortnight.
ADV. MOTATA: Now how did you determine that on the 15th July the number of people would be paid that would have been fortnightly, how did you determine the number?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I noticed that when we went there on the 15th the people were getting paid so therefore during our visit we noticed that every fortnight these people get paid and the van arrives.
ADV. MOTATA: Assist me here, you say there was Mchunu, Mkhize, Williams, Ngubane, Nene.  Then you say the rest of them they don't belong to any political organisation, when you say that are you referring to the names I've just mentioned?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I'm referring to Aaron and Eric Ntani.
ADV. MOTATA: In other words, the names you haven't mentioned here are the ones you said didn't belong to any organisation because you have mentioned five if you can have regard to page 9 of the papers?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: At that time I did not know that the ones I've mentioned here on this page are belonging to a political group or not.  All seven, I was not aware of their political affiliation.
ADV. MOTATA: Mr Malefane, the incident of repossession was on the 15th July 1991, you completed your form, your application form on the 3rd October 1996, if you have regard to page 3 of the papers before you.  Do you see that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes sir.
ADV. MOTATA: My question then is, when did you know then that the others, the seven, belonged to which organisation, liberation movement or did not belong to any?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: In prison Randera and Khampepe arrived and they were there to tell us about the Truth Commission and they handed us booklets and I handed them over to these people who I was in prison with and I told them that they must apply to the Truth Commission for amnesty, that is when I knew that they were not politically affiliated.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?
ADV. MOTATA: We're getting no translation.
	Please would you assist us, we're sorry about that Mr Malefane, could you answer to my question?