Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  And the same on page 121?  The part, paragraph 10, that's also another person?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And the form on page 123, who completed that one?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I'm the one who wrote that, except on 11.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.  Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So surely before you signed the form on the bottom there, you have read through it to see what the other person has written down there?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you agreed with that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, I do.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now the question remains, why didn't you insist that there also be written that you were a member of this youth congress, in fact an office bearer thereof?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I might have been a little confused by the language.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I put it to you that because not one of the applicants referred to the existence of such a youth congress, and because of the fact that you cannot now remember the name of such an important figure as the leader thereof, that it in fact did not exist as a youth congress, or as an organising body.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It existed.

ADV DE JAGER: Page 124, where did that originate from and when?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, these were attached to the application forms.  If you see page 123, it says ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I see it, but on reading it, who typed it ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: No, these came in with the forms, Honourable Chairperson.  I believe the applicants would be best in a position to give us the source of the document.

ADV DE JAGER: Thanks.  Could you assist us please, page 124.  It's referred to on the previous page as
"See Annexure A"
And that was not your present application, it was the indemnity application.  Who completed that, or who typed it for you?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It was Mr Abraham Ruruli(?).

ADV DE JAGER: Did you read it before it was sent?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I know the contents.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you agree with that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, I do.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you then perhaps explain to me the third paragraph
"Unfortunately many youths didn't celebrate in an organised manner (that was about the release of President Mandela), they seized the opportunity to deal with the so-called witches.  These youths ran around the villages burning the old men and women and also burning down their huts and houses.  What was peculiar about the whole incident was that the youth in he process of burning, were singing and chanting songs and slogans of the African National Congress."
Now if you agree with this, how could the killing of the witches then be related to any political objective?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Because in whatever manner we were doing in our activities, it was in a logical political manner, like in the singing and the chanting of political freedom songs, ANC and the like.

INTERPRETER: Sorry for interrupting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I continue.
	Let's move on a little bit now to the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) whether the youth congress existed or not?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I think I have finished by making that statement that in fact he it not exist.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.
	Let's move on a little bit now to the time when the list of witches were informed that they have to evict the area and the deceased refused to leave.  You said that the chief's car was actually used to inform those people of the decision of the chief, namely that they should leave, and that includes the deceased, is that correct?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I said it was used to go and call those people to come to the chief's kraal.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see.  Now were all these people on the list assembled in the chief's kraal, including the deceased?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Not all of them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: But the deceased, he was there?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did the chief at any stage hand to the deceased a written notice that he must evict the area?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You saw that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, I was there, I saw that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you see that paper?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I didn't really hold that in my hand, but I saw it because I was there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you accepted that to be the trek pass, is that correct?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now was there - and you can tell us if you don't know this, was there cut-off date given to the deceased to leave?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: There was no cut-off date.  It was only saying immediately.  It was still early in the morning.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now is it not so then that in the traditional way, the only reason when a chief can actually issue a "trek pass" for a person to move immediately, without an extension, without giving him time, the only instance when he should move immediately is when that person is accused as a witch?  Do you agree with that statement?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well could you just repeat the statement.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, I'll make it simpler.  According to you own knowledge, is it not so that a person will an immediate trek pass, only in one instance, and that is when he was pointed as a witch?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Just have a direct and straight question.  I'm a little confused in the manner in which you are putting ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, alright, just hold on now.  Wait and listen then.  What is being put to you is that the "trek pass" will be issued with immediate effect only when someone is accused of being a witch.  In all other instances when a "trek pass" is issued it doesn't have force with immediate effect?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Petrus Mahvunga, the deceased' brother, was he also at that meeting?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I can't remember - no, he wasn't in the meeting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you saying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You said there were three females and the deceased.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, I missed that.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Was it at this meeting - let's skip that.  You say that even after the meeting the deceased continued to intimidate the people, is that so?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How did the accused or the deceased continue to intimidate the people?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well there were several incidents which took place in my absence and I heard about it thereafter.  Especially the assault in the mountain.  I wasn't there.  Like when people went to different individual villages of family members, I wasn't there. When they were threatened with arson, well they couldn't
come to my place, they went to other people's places.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Let me ask you this, did you yourself witness any intimidation by the deceased on any member of the community, after that paper was served on him, as you testified?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well what I can recall and what I witnessed is on a particular day when the deceased was indicating that he will chop the youth who were in one meeting in the chief's crawl, there was arson on Petrus Mahvunga's place.  That is what I witnessed and that is where he threatened people, intimidated.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, if I understand you correctly, he threatened to do something to the people who had burnt or attacked his kraal, is that correct?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you saw that as intimidation?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, in the manner in which he was saying it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  You testified that the witches that had to be removed was one of the obstacles that oppressed you at the time.  Can I ask you, what other obstacles are you referring to if you say the witches were only one of them?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well something as well I can demonstrate are the ritual murder cases.