Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR MOLOI: Having told a lie under oath before, why in your mind, should this Committee and the community accept that today you are telling the truth?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I think I did explain Chair, that that was in a court of law, and I had to defend myself.  But today I am in-front of this community to apologise for what I did.  There is a difference, I was in a court of law denying charges, but today I accept and I admit that I did commit the crime, and that is why I'm asking the community to accept what I'm saying.

MR MOLOI: But the end result, is it not so that the end result remains the same.  If your defence at that trial was upheld, you would have walked out a free man.  And equally should your application succeed today and be granted amnesty, you would walk out a free person.  Is the end result not the same?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I think that the family members of the victims do not know what happened in court.  They just learnt that I had killed their child.  I think that today they are going to heal and understand that what were the circumstances surrounding the death of their children.

MR MOLOI: And you must be believed in that regard, right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata do you have any questions?

MR MOTATA: Just one Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu I just want to get some clarity on just one issue, and that is when you were trained and shown videos, you remember when you said you were shown videos on a Sunday evening or Sunday evenings, do you recall that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes that is correct.

MR MOTATA: And you say you were shown Inkatha people being burned, you recall that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOTATA: Did you see in which areas within South Africa those people were burnt?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, because I do not know many places I cannot say what those areas where.  I don't know whether they were in Johannesburg or the Transvaal.  The only area that I knew was Kwa-Zulu.

MR MOTATA: Were it not that you were told these people you see being burned, those are IFP people, but you never recognised any of those people to be IFP people.  Would I be correct in so thinking or assuming?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, when the video was shown there were many of us.  I don't therefore think that everybody, even those at the back, could hear what this person was saying because they were not clearly mentioning "this is the UDF and such and such an area, doing this and that", but we were just told that this is the UDF and this is what they are doing here in South Africa.

MR MOTATA: You did not recognise any of those people you saw burning as IFP members, you did not, would I be right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: No I did not see their faces but I did see people burning.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson I've got no further questions.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR DLADLA: I thought my learned friend John was going to re-examine.  I would say whatever I want to say after him.

CHAIRPERSON: No I asked for re-examination and you said none - and in fact you've had your bite at the apple, but you - at the cherry whatever, but I will be giving an opportunity on questions arising out of questions put by the panel, but I just want to ask one or two questions myself first.
	Mr Ndlovu from the time that you were trained as a special constable at Koeberg as you've described, and during the period in which you were involved in these incidents that you've told us about, did you receive a regular remuneration, an income?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I did receive a salary because I was working.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you receive the salary from?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: When I was in Kwa-Zulu there was a colonel Burger who used to come to Kwa-Zulu Natal stations to pay our salaries.  There would be two of them, but I remember colonel Burger.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity did you receive this salary, in your capacity as a special constable or in your capacity as, or in any other capacity?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I was receiving salary as a special constable.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it coming from the police, the South African Police?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I was in the Kwa-Zulu Police at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Wills do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR WILLS: No questions thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: No thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I won't forget you this time Mr Ngubane.  Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: None.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Yes I do Mr Chairman.
	Page 407 and 408 of your application for amnesty, I want to read what is written at the bottom of page 407, which is the nature in particular of an offence which you committed, and it reads as follows:
"I was from the Imbali Hostel with other constables.  While we were getting out from the township we came across two ANC supporters.  One of the officers was wearing the full uniform, so it was clear from these two ANC supporters that we were the Kwa-Zulu Police officers.  They drew firearms and shot us.  One of them got killed, since we retaliated too."
In an answer to a typed question, namely "state whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage" the answer "yes" is given by you.  	
	And then the next question, it says, "If so, (1) ..." and I can't quite read my photostat Mr Chairman, but it appears - I can read out "of the victim", presumably it's the name of the victim.  And then the name given is "Bongane Ntombela".   Now having regard to what has been filled in on this application for amnesty, the description of the incident where Bongane Ntombela is described as the victim, is that correct as I've just read it out, namely that two ANC people realised that they were dealing with Kwa-Zulu Police officers, that these two ANC people started firing at the Kwa-Zulu Police officers, who retaliated, and Bongane Ntombela was killed.  Is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I don't remember saying this.

CHAIRPERSON: You see this is part of the application form Mr Ndlovu.  You've got - I must say Mr Hewitt there that this applicant has two application forms.  This one which you've read out of now which was dated 12 December 1996, signed in the Westville Correctional Services Prison, and then there's another one which starts on page 413, which is clearly not the same at all.

MR HEWITT: Yes, no I had picked up that there were two applications.  I'm just pointing it out.

CHAIRPERSON: So you've filled two applications Mr Ndlovu?  In the one application you've given the version that was read out by Mr Hewitt.  In the other application on this loose sheet that was handed to us, you've given anther version, which is closer to the version which you've given now in this hearing.  So if you can answer Mr - you say you can't remember filling in two forms?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Let me explain Chair, if I remember correctly the people at Westville did not want us to involve ourselves in the TRC process.  Somebody came with an IFP lawyer, Nicky Britz, as well as captain Shlengwa, who was the head of the BSI, but was not working at the IFP office.  They did not want us to involve ourselves with the TRC process because they said it was part of those people who were being used by the ANC to undermine their integrity.  Therefore I realised that it will be difficult for me not to reveal what actually happened, just like the involvement of MZ Khumalo in incidents at Imbali, therefore it should be taken into consideration that they were afraid that I would actually undermine him.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that you purposely told the wrong - your purposefully gave the wrong version in this first application, because of those reasons?