Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there's just two aspects I'd like clarity on.  Mr Kudzingana, in your application to us on page 8.  In response to a question as to the occupation and addresses of the victim, can I just ask, excuse my ignorance, but is Welder a name of a place or is that a reference to an occupation.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at page 8 of your formal application, not the affidavit.  On paragraph 9c the question there is, 9c.2, the occupations and or addresses of the victims.  There is a word "Welder."  What does that refer to, his occupation or his address?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: A welder, it's a person who welds things.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's his occupation.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes it's an occupation.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, is that Frans Mavhandu's occupation?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes he was self-employed doing that.

MS PATEL: Okay is that your case that besides the fact that he was a welder he was also a wizard?

MS PATEL: Can you tell me Sir, when did you decide to become a supporter of the ANC?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Since I got to know that there is a person called Mandela.  I learned that there is Mandela and and he's a leader of the ANC and he's arrested and he's in jail and then started to know about the ANC and then I started to support it during that time.

MS PATEL: Okay how long before this incident did you realise that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Knowing about Mandela is something which is from long ago, but I know about about Mandela. I think that I started to know about Mandela that he was in prison in terms of political things and the leader of the ANC and I started to support the ANC and it's quite long ago.

MS PATEL: The question is very simple, when did you first become a supporter of the ANC, how many years before this incident, how many months before this incident or when, give us an estimation?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I think three years back, then I was aware that Mandela is the leader of the ANC and then it came that Mandela was released and then we celebrated his release and I know what I'm saying.

MS PATEL: In your affidavit to us in paragraph 15, as part of your motivation, as part of your political motivation you state that at the time of this incident, that you were still fighting for the release of Mr Mandela.  Yet by that time he was already released.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes by then Mandela was already released but then the work here in Venda that we were supposed to do was not necessarily to fight for Mandela, the most important thing here was the incorporation of the Venda Government into South Africa.  It means that even if Mandela was released then our struggle was still continuing referring to Venda.  That Mandela was released doesn't stop our struggle or what we were intending because our aim was for this government of Venda to go back to South Africa.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR NDOU: Nothing further Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know Albert Thembani?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I knew him.

ADV SIGODI: I didn't get the answer.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: He's outside now.  I mean his not here with us, he's outside the jail.

ADV SIGODI: Was he also convicted of this?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes.  When the policemen were searching the people he was the one who was wanted on this case which I'm also involved in.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he stand trial with you on this charge?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: He was not arrested.

ADV SIGODI: I got the impression when you said that he was outside that he was arrested and that he has since been released.  Could you clarify that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Maybe I didn't understand it.  He was just arrested on a different case, not this one I'm involved in.

ADV SIGODI: So what you're saying in paragraph 30 is that he is the one who doused the deceased with petrol and set him alight?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: What about Mr Thembani(?)

MS PATEL: Unfortunately Honourable Chairperson these affidavits came to us during the course of this hearing, we haven't had an opportunity to inform him.  I might also add for the record that supplementary affidavits were requested a long time ago from the applicant.
(blank in the recording)

MR NDOU: (?)   No he's not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, how sure are we that the applicants received those letters requesting further particulars?

MS PATEL: I believe that they were faxed to their coordinator Honourable Chairperson, I can just get the details for you now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou can you put any - were your clients asked for further particulars.

MR NDOU: Mr Chairman, all I know is that the documents from the TRC only arrived on the 12th, that's all I can say.  We gave the affidavits in before the documents from the TRC arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: No we're not talking about that, we're talking about separate letters.

MR NDOU: I'm not aware of any letters that were sent.

MS PATEL: If I might add in respect of the bundles going out ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just find out from one or two of your clients whether that occurred?   Ms Patel if you can instigate a written response to our questions from that coordinator and from the person who sent the letters through the coordinator.  If the applicants really got this notice or not.

MS PATEL: I'll do so Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust it will be appreciated that what we plan to do now, just going to extend the incarceration of the applicants and possibly to look forward to their own, but if they did receive the notice then it's their own fault.

MR NDOU: Honourable Chairperson I spoke to the coordinator of the applicants themselves, they have a group of their own and he indicates to me that he is not aware of any such letter.  If a letter was ever sent then it could possibly have been sent to Mr Leguli who is presently not here ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who's he?

MR NDOU: He is the one who was coordinating this committee of the applicants.  He's a CO for the town council of Messina.  Now we've been trying to get him since ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Has he been appointed by the applicants themselves?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So they chose him?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So if he received that notice, he sat with it, then it's his fault.
	Anyway Ms Patel I would like the written report on that score.  We find ourselves in the position where we have to comply with the Act and in terms of the evidence now given, one Mr Thembani has been implicated in this matter.  According to the Act, where a person is implicated in the crime he must be given notice of that and given an ...(break in recording)
     I have given an instruction to the Evidence Leader, calling for a written report to this Committee on what actually happened because she is in possession of a copy of a letter requesting this type of information about implicated people and amongst other issues.  
    It seems that the applicants themselves appointed a coordinator.  I'm not too sure whether it reached that coordinator.  The fact of the matter is that a response to that letter never reached the TRC and therefore they could not and did not send the required notice to Mr Thembani.  
    We are in a position now, in order to comply with the Act, we are compelled therefore to postpone the matter sine die, and unfortunately it means that those who could possibly have been released, would have to wait that much longer so that Mr Thembani, has a chance, if he so chooses, to deal with these allegations.  It is an unfortunate situation for the applicants but one that we cannot avoid.  I apologise for the inconvenience.