Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: To shoot at us and to shoot at Shell House.

MR DORFLING: : So if one takes the shooting in your direction out of the equation, if one has to just for a moment work from the point of departure that there was no shooting in your direction there would have been nothing else that would indicate to you that there would be an attack.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Shooting where Sir?

MR DORFLING: : There was no shooting Mr Moolman, there was nothing else in the behaviour of the marchers that indicated to you that they were attacking that's the only thing that you saw that persuaded you that this was now an attack.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: : I want to put it to you that I am going to urge this Committee to find as a fact that there were no shots emanating from the crowd and that therefore there would have been nothing in your mind that would have persuaded you to perceive what was happening as an attack?

MR LAX: No response?  You are being asked to respond to that statement.  In other words there was no shooting and therefore there was no attack.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not understand what does he means when he says there was no shooting.  There was shooting on that day.

MR DORFLING: : Now the last aspect I want to deal with Mr Moolman is the incident in which - during which Mr Potsane grabbed the fire arm from you.  Do I understand you correctly you fired a single shot?  Did you then go into hiding again.? Did you hide behind the parapet after you fired your shot?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Was there at that point in time any shooting that hit the parapet wall next to you?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: At what time Sir?

MR DORFLING: : At the time after you fired your first shot and after you hid behind the parapet wall again?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: What I told you Sir is what I remember that while I was still hiding the bullets were still hitting the wall at Shell House.

MR DORFLING: : The question was more specific.  I asked you whether any shots struck the parapet wall at that point in time?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes after I've separated from Jakwe and them.

MR DORFLING: : I just want you to be clear in your mind what I'm asking.  I'm asking after you fired your shot with your shotgun when you, as you put it you tried to recycle the gun when you tried to reload at the time Mr Potsane took the firearm from you, are you saying that at that point in time further shots were hitting the parapet wall?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not remember.

MR DORFLING: : I want to put it to you Mr Moolman as a fact that on the ballistic evidence there are no signs of any shots having hit the parapet wall towards the middle of the block where you claimed to have been positioned at the time when you fired your shot.  Would you like to comment on that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: No comment.

MR DORFLING: : Now Sir the ballistic experts examined the parapet wall and they did find some shots that entered into the parapet wall but that was on the north western corner of Shell House being the corners of King George and de Villiers Street.  Can you offer any explanation why there's no sign of any bullets having hit the parapet wall halfway down the block where you claim you were positioned at the time when shots hit the parapet wall?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Dorfling it's not this witness' evidence that any shots hit the parapet wall.  He said that shots hit the building behind him, the wall behind him.  That's my recollection of his evidence.	But if I'm wrong the record will speak for itself and his answer will stand as it has already stood.  Let's leave it there I think, but feel free to take it further if you want to.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I may be inclined to agree with you Mr Dorfling I think he did refer to the parapet.

CHAIRPERSON: But both he did say they were hitting Shell House as well.  But I think once again that matters of this detail I have no doubt will form part of your address rather than pursuing this cross-examination.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Chair the reason why I am specifically asking this question is the witness did indeed refer to both the parapet wall as well as the tower block.

CHAIRPERSON: That's right.

MR DORFLING: : It was his evidence that at the Shell House inquest that at the time the bullets struck the parapet wall he was positioned at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street.  Not close to halfway down the block.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : His evidence now is completely different from his evidence at the inquest court.  Not only does he contradict himself with relation to the shots that fired or that hit the parapet which is shown by the ballistic evidence not to be true but he also contradicts himself as regard to his position.  He positioned himself at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street during the time of the inquest.  If you, Mr Chair, just bear with me for a second I'll refer you to the specific portion in the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr orfling to the extent that there may be a conflict between what the witness said at the inquest and his evidence before us today, I think it would be fair to put those matters to the witness so that he may have the opportunity to explain them, if there is any explanation.

MR DORFLING: : I am indebted to you honourable committee member I have indeed got the reference of the inquest proceedings and I would refer the witness to that right now.  I am referring to page 31, sorry 3515 lines 11 to 30 Mr Chair.  Maybe for purposes of clarity I should read this out so the contradictions would appear.

MR DORFLING: You were asked about your positioning and how the or where the shots emanating from the crowd struck the building, and at line 11 the following is recorded Sir.  "And tell me what was it then, when they were on the corner of King George and de villiers, what was it that made you think that all these things were now going to happen?"

MR DORFLING: It relates therefore to your position at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street at the time. And then you respond -

MR DORFLING: "When the group started shooting in our direction.  Is that the only reason that you thought all these things were going to happen is that the group were shooting in your direction?

WITNESS:  Yes and running towards the direction of Shell House.

MR DORFLING: 		And when you say the group was shooting in your direction as I understood it you did not actually see anyone shooting in fact is that right?

WITNESS:  I could not see who specifically was shooting but I could see that we were being shot at.

MR DORFLING: 		Well there were some shots that hit the parapet.  Is that what you are talking about?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR DORFLING: 		Was that the only sign or were there any other signs that people were shooting?

WITNESS: That was the sign that convinced me.

MR DORFLING: 		So it was the shots that hit the parapet that told you that all this was not going to happen that the people were moving towards Shell House?

WITNESS: Yes as well as the bullets that struck the wall at the back at the building or against the building."

MR DORFLING: You made it very clear Mr Moolman you were standing at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street what you observed were bullets hitting that corner of the parapet and also bullets hitting the tower block of Shell House.  Your evidence today is in total conflict with that.  You have not only positioned you in a different place but you tried to avoid the issue of the bullets having struck the parapet of which there was no ballistic evidence to support it.

MS MOROKA: Mr Chairperson when the witness first gave evidence he indicated that he was at the corner of de Villiers and King George when the bullets hit the parapet.  He then ran, all of them ran in different directions.