Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose who is the next witness?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The next witness Mr Chairman is Mr X Tyali.  His application is at pages 65 to 71 of the paginated bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose.

XOLINI TYALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Mr Tyali, you are a policeman.  Where are you stationed?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes.  I am stationed at Zwelitsha.

MR OBOSE: Are you familiar with the events of that date, 22nd March and the 23rd as related by the witnesses before you, applicants before you?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Do you confirm basically what these applicants have said with regard to those incidents, those that you know of?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Just very briefly, did you attend this meeting yourself?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, I attended the meeting on that day.  I was at Tech, I was in class.  I was called to leave the students and go to the meeting at the hall.  We did as we were told.

MR OBOSE: Could you enter inside the hall or were you outside?

XOLINI TYALI: I was outside the hall.  I was sitting under the tree in the shade.

MR OBOSE: Were you able to follow the proceedings?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, I could follow the procedure because a loud speaker was used.

MR OBOSE: Did you in any way participate in the goings on on that day, or evening?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, I took part later because it was announced that because Capt Sawuti was implicated or affected, they said anyone who had a key or a car, he must go and fetch Capt Sawuti in his house and I left with Nqinana because he was the one who had a key to a car and I occupied a passenger seat.  Commander Toto and ...(indistinct) they drove another car and we went to his house.

MR OBOSE: Roughly what time was this?

XOLINI TYALI: If my memory serves me well, I think it was between 10 and 11 in the night.

MR OBOSE: Was he assaulted, pointed with firearms etc?

XOLINI TYALI: I do not remember seeing him being assaulted.  We did not assault him.  We did not even point him with guns but what was done to him, we requested his firearm to be with us on our way to the college.

MR OBOSE: When you got to the college, what happened?

XOLINI TYALI: We put him in and he went up to join the other officers who were on the podium and then I remained inside the hall thereafter.

MR OBOSE: How was the mood in the hall when you got back?

XOLINI TYALI: The police were singing freedom songs, there was a large number of policemen, there was noise inside the hall.

MR OBOSE: And in the morning when you got to the hall first, was there already singing or not?

XOLINI TYALI: They were still singing even in the morning.

MR OBOSE: In the morning?

XOLINI TYALI: They were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Tyali, what was the reason for you and other policemen to fetch Mr Sawuti?

XOLINI TYALI: It was announced through the loudspeaker that anyone with the car keys should go and fetch Serg Sawuti and Serg Nqinana, the one who was with me, had the keys and he knew where Serg Sawuti's house was situated, and we got into the car.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you did not have the keys, you did not know where he stays, why did you have to go and fetch him?

XOLINI TYALI: The reason for me to leave, it is because Nqinana requested me.  I actually, I left with him because we were together and he had a key.  I was not forced to go with him, but the only thing is that we were always together at that particular time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And why was it necessary for two cars to fetch him?

XOLINI TYALI: The second car that was driven by Serg Kamana followed us.  Perhaps they were just interested because we were just on our way to his house, but when we got out of the gate we just saw them following us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you fetched Mr Sawuti did you know that Brig Gqozo had already resigned or stepped down?

XOLINI TYALI: We had heard about that.  We heard that Brig Gqozo had stepped down.  We got that information from the other police who were in the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you know who gave instructions that Mr Sawuti should be fetched?

XOLINI TYALI: Different people were using this loudspeaker, the microphone, I cannot remember who exactly issued that instruction, but we just heard that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I correct to say you did not know for what purpose was Mr Sawuti fetched?

XOLINI TYALI: As I was outside, sitting outside, we could hear what was being discussed in the hall.  The issue was about money squandering and a person who was talking mentioned Serg Sawuti's name and it was said that someone who's got the car keys should go and fetch Serg Sawuti.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So your understanding when you fetched Capt Sawuti was that he must have misappropriated funds?

XOLINI TYALI: It came that way and I was in the car of someone who was sent to do that, to fetch him, that is what I heard.  We heard that he was also implicated.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What did come to your mind when you fetched him?  Did you want him to account for the money or did you want him to be arrested?

XOLINI TYALI: It is because his name was mentioned and the instruction was issued to go and fetch him so that he could come and answer for himself.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So his presence there according to you, was to answer to the allegations but not to join the broader police forum which was there, for any other purpose other than to answer the allegations?

XOLINI TYALI: As it is already mentioned that the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo, but because it was late in the night there were other issues that were affecting police that were discussed, that is where this one was mentioned.

MR NOMPOZOLO: These were police grievances which had nothing to do with politics.  Is it correct?

XOLINI TYALI: Those are the matters that came up in the hall, but the purpose of the meeting itself was to remove Brig Gqozo, but there were other matters that came up that were actually troubling the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did you get to know that the meeting, the purpose of the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo?

XOLINI TYALI: I got to know that when I was inside the hall when someone told me that Brig Gqozo is to be removed.  But when I went there I knew nothing.  Even the police at the police meeting, I was in class when I saw the vans approaching the hall.  I was busy dealing with students and I was called.  We were told to leave everything and go to the hall as Gen Nqoya wanted to see the police there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did it come, exactly what time did it come to your knowledge that the purpose was to remove Brig Gqozo?

XOLINI TYALI: When I saw the soldiers coming at the gate.  When the soldiers came I was at the gate and they got in and they said they heard that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo and they were also on the side of the police.  We opened for them to get inside and they also safeguarded the place, that is when I got that information.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Before that what did you think was the purpose of the meeting?

XOLINI TYALI: As I've explained that when I came the police were already there and Gen Nqoya was not there and I heard that he said he was coming back.  I heard that he is the one who called the police.  This issue of removing Brig Gqozo, I got that information from these soldiers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Had those soldiers not told you, you wouldn't have known?

XOLINI TYALI: I am certain that if I did ask the people who were there, I would get that information in time, but I did not ask.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you fetched Mr Sawuti at his house, you were not fetching him for the purpose of removing Brig Gqozo.  Am I correct?