Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MR DE JAGER: But didn't you perhaps just think that the truck was similar to a motor car and that you would be able to drive it quite easily?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No.

MR DE JAGER: If it was your objective, could you not perhaps just have removed the vehicle, just to get it outside the gate, that would have made your point, you would
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have proved your point?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Well, to remove it from the premises, you see the vehicle wasn't found in my possession, whether I'd parked it just outside the gate or a couple of metres further on, remove is remove.

MR DE JAGER: Yes, but you parked it about 300 to 400 metres away when its brakes failed.

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, I'll tell you, this vehicle, from the moment that I'd removed it from the premises, the vehicle just wouldn't function properly, there was something wrong with it.

MR DE JAGER: Yes, and you had hoped that with the increase in pressure, the vehicle would start up again?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No.  According to my experience, there are many easier ways to steal a vehicle, easier than the way in which we tried to do it.

MR DE JAGER: Yes, I believe that, but you didn't succeed in your aim.   Why didn't you take ropes with you to tie up the people.

MR VAN STRAATEN: This was a transport company and you always find ropes on such a vehicle, underneath the vehicle, you usually find ropes present on such a vehicle, and that's the reason why I didn't take any ropes along with me, because I was sure I would find some on the premises.

MR DE JAGER: Did your brother not tell you that he had ropes in the back of his vehicle and that you should use those?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, he didn't.   No, we did not take our own ropes.

MR DE JAGER: Was that the first time you heard about those ropes, here today in this hall?
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MR VAN STRAATEN: /...
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MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR DE JAGER: When your brother mentioned it?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct.

MR DE JAGER: Thank you, chairperson.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But, Mr Van Straaten, you should have, or you would have had to tie up the night watchmen first, before you could get to the trucks?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Correct, when I entered the premises, Dawid and myself each grabbed a night watchman, we held onto them, Adriaan and Gideon then came and when they arrived, I let go of my night watchman and went off in my direction.   Each one of us had our own specific task.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, but I'm asking this question arising from the question asked by Mr De Jager, and you said in answer that you would have been able to obtain ropes in the truck, but what I'm putting to you is that you would have had to first tie up the guards before you could get to the truck where you would have then been able to find the ropes?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So what would you have used to tie up the night watchmen if you hadn't been able to get to the truck first?

MR VAN STRAATEN: As I explained to the committee, there are always pieces of canvas and ropes present in these trucks to cover the loads, the goods.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Straaten, I think what my learned friend is trying to ask you is, before you would be able to obtain the rope, you would have had to first neutralise the guard to be able to get to the truck and the rope, so how would you have neutralised him before obtaining the rope?

MR VAN STRAATEN: But that's what I'm telling the committee,
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and that's what I can't understand you, when Dawid and I entered the premises, we each of us grabbed hold of a night watchman.   My job was to remove the truck from the premises, I grabbed my guard and then left him to the other two accused to deal with.   Their task was to tie them up whilst I was supposed to go to the truck.   I wasn't told to first go and look for ropes, each one of us had our own very specific task.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct) till about 11:30 weren't you?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: What was the place called?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Where we were drinking?

JUDGE WILSON: National Station Bar?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's right.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mr Texeira tried to get you to stay there, so he could take you, I'm talking about the group, home because you were too drunk to drive, he gave that evidence at your trial?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, that's not so.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't that the evidence at your trial?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Not as far as I'm aware.   What we would have done is, we were invited to the owner's home...

JUDGE WILSON: Your brother gave that evidence at the trial, not Mr Texeira, that you had been drinking at the National Station Bar in Vereeniging until after lunch in the morning, you went home and returned there that evening and stayed there till 11:30.

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And he then said Mr Texeira wanted you to stay behind as you were too drunk, that you drove home drunk, not you, accused No 2.
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MR VAN STRAATEN: Accused No 2, but I can't see how that can be.

JUDGE WILSON: Well they give that evidence.

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, otherwise I would have known about it.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 18 of the record, 7 of the judgment.

MR VAN STRAATEN: He seems to want to have alleged that we weren't competent to drive our motor car home, but to me that doesn't make any sense, how can a drunk person enter premises and overpower the night watchmen?   If we were all drunk, they would have overpowered us, that's my argument and that's why I can't understand this line of arguing.

UNKNOWN: When was the decision to steal the truck made, that night, at what time?

MR VAN STRAATEN: It must have been at round about eight or nine o'clock that evening.

UNKNOWN: Prior you went to the National Station Bar to have a drink?

MR VAN STRAATEN: We were at the Station Bar the whole day.

UNKNOWN: The decision to rob the truck, is that when it was made, the decision was taken at the bar?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, not at the bar, we decided that earlier in the afternoon at home.

UNKNOWN: And when was the decision to steal the truck and leave it approximately three metres away from the premises made, 300 metres, made, when was it taken, that decision?

MR VAN STRAATEN: It must have been at about half past twelve that night, or 12 o'clock.

UNKNOWN: You made that decision after you had chosen the company in question as the company to be targeted for the theft of the truck?
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MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: What premises had you inspected prior to deciding on that company as a target for you choice as the stealing of the truck?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I wasn't at any other one place, we went straight, I went straight to that particular property.

UNKNOWN: A decision was made to steal the truck and put it 300 metres away from the premises.   Did you know the make and the model of the truck you intended to steal?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

<UNKNOWN>: Only a single question, Mr Chair.    Mr Van Straaten, you will agree with me that if four people of an organisation would go and steal a truck and tie up two guards, no-one would know who had done it, and it would make very little impact, would you agree with me?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, I agree.

<UNKNOWN>: How then would you say did you plan to make this event known to the wider world, that you had done this action and what your intentions were?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you understand my question?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.   Do you mean if I would have told anyone about it?

<UNKNOWN>: No, that is not what I mean.   You, as a cell, you and your three brothers, did you have any plans with regard to your intentions, your purpose, your objective with this action, to make it known?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, to a personal acquaintance, possibly.