Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR SWANEPOEL: The company was specifically in the transitional phase.  The intention was the purchasing of the shares and the privatisation between the employees of RRL.  Part of the structures that were created were then also holder companies and the shareholders trust within the company.  Perhaps I am missing the point now, but the intention of the company was to privatise, to take over commercial projects in its full capacity to deal with commercial projects.  The Defence Force indicated that they would cease their projects, they did however conclude a contract with us for a further five years in 1989, or sorry, 1990 and with this contract we decided that we would deal with it and we would continue with the process.  In the privatisation process we gave them a loan account, the Defence Force, and we also had to buy the property from them.  In due course the Defence Force informed us that they had to implement increased option regarding the ending of contracts because they wanted to terminate the work and take everything back.  Our provision was that we would continue with the company.  In a specific year, I think this was also 1990, Minister Pik Botha announced in declare that we did not have chemical biological abilities, but he had to correct himself later and say that we did have this capability and this specific convention wanted to know who was involved, who were all the elements and what is their involvement in this specific subject, and on this basis we undertook not to make this known - it was undertaken not to make this known, but we were made known world-wide in terms of our involvement in the project and we started losing our clients, our commercial clients, that around which our whole company was built.  At that stage we tried to negotiate with our clients, and we said stay with us, we will carry on dealing with your things, things are changing, but they also said to us, no, let's rather leave it at that, we are no longer interested.  So we started losing clients as a result of the public making of this.  This led to the process that finally we had to liquidate or subsidise the company with no prediction of the results thereof.

UNKNOWN: May I ask two questions to you, Mr Swanepoel.  The first one is, I suppose it would be in the last few days, the thought that I go away with at the end of the day is, here was your company, particularly involved in what you call ...(indistinct) because that's you saw at the end of the day, and I must say, I haven't from any of your directors, scientists who were involved and earlier on I asked that question as well if you, had a reasonable explanation as to what's happened to these products.  Do you sleep easily yourself, knowing that your company may be perhaps, somewhere in some fridge, these deadly organisms are still surviving?

MR SWANEPOEL: I must tell you that before I received these documents and the line of questioning from Mr Chaskalson it was not a problem for me, because I believe that it had happened as I had set it out to be a discussion initially.  I cannot tell you what was done with this because these things were all removed under instruction, all documentation, all products were removed and went back to the client.  In the commercial line one or other pharmaceutical company, if they have come to me, I do not know what the result of his intentions would be.  If it is as you say, then surely, if you want to follow the approach that you are following, then I must tell you that the director of Musgrave must also sleep, very fitfully.

UNKNOWN: Having had an insight into all these documents now, that you say you didn't know about previously, and part of the Commission's responsibility is also to look at the future, what would you recommend as far as chemical and biological warfare goes for this country, and what processes should be involved if we were to become involved in developing such instructions?

MR SWANEPOEL: It can surely not be an open subject, you know the sensitivity regarding this subject in the world arena.  There are many countries who have these capabilities and you say they do not, but they do.  The handling of this will certainly in future still be done in a clandestine and extremely confidential basis.  Depending on the Government's policy regarding publicising and what they want to pretend to other countries and other governments, I cannot comment on this.  What I think is that I believe that one should have a defensive capability.  It also depends on the threat, that's a political question, but if the political scene should change overnight, these are not things which are established in a day or two, these are things which develop over a long period of time and are prepared, and one must be ready to be able to handle oneself in such a case, as is the case with any other country.

UNKNOWN: One last question, yesterday we certainly heard somebody talk about the enemy.  In your particular case did you become involved in this sort of work because there was an enemy for you too, and if so, who was this enemy?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, this was not my objective, it was just a further challenge regarding management and my own involvement.

UNKNOWN: So it was purely business for you?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, I was in the medical services and this meant support to troops and this was that medical services do not joint in the fight, they support their own troops, so my whole approach was a support role in my time in the military and with this management challenge - it was a personal challenge for me.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Orr?

UNKNOWN: Dr Swanepoel, did RRL ever do any work for, or have any interaction with Protechnic?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, Protechnic - at one stage Mr Jan Lourens consulted for us as a biotechnical engineer in terms of the building of certain apparatus.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware that what Dr Odendal called larger quantities of bacterial cultures were prepared for testing filters at Protechnic?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

UNKNOWN: You did not know that your company was producing products for testing at Protechnic?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

UNKNOWN: And do you have any idea why Protechnic might have asked Dr Odendal to prepare five cigarettes contaminated with Anthrax?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Dr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair I would request if we could stand down for five minutes, we have to send a message down to Mr Vally, but I understand the legal argument could probably take place now, and I just want to drag him back here.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll stand down for five minutes.  Are we in a position to put any other witness in the event legal argument is still ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: We are in a position to put another witness, but we would far prefer it if the question of the legal argument was resolved, just because it allows us to determine the timing for the remainder of the hearing.

UNKNOWN: If I can assist, Mr Chairman, I went down to Mr Vally a couple of minutes ago to establish how far he was, and the impression I had that he would still need some time, so I think your suggestion of another witness is maybe time-wise the correct choice.

MR POLSEN: Mr Chair, if I may, I would like to consult with Mr Vally.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

MR POLSEN: I would rather prefer that we do not lead the next witness right now.

CHAIRPERSON: No, was - I'm giving you the five minute adjournment, but five minutes strictly.  If he is in any way going to be 10 minutes after five minutes, then we are taking the next witness.
HEARING ADJOURNS