Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MR BERGER: Did you ever go back to the house?  Not to live, but ...

MS ANDERSON: You know I popped in, Mike and Uriel were friends, I popped in.  There were, as I said, all these music things going on, there was always stuff happening and I would pop in and say hello, but not much because in the period, I was more or less house arrested because the Botswana government gave me bail on condition I stay out at my parents' place and I had to report to the police station twice a week and so I was very kind of cut off from the ANC community for quite a long time, so I think it was really towards the end, after I had been acquitted possibly, I popped in, but it, I mean you know with all of us, we would visit each other all the time and see each other at the concerts and so on, so you can't, I think there'd be no particular system saying:  "Once a week I went to Baleka, once a week I went to Uriel", or something, there was constant flow, we saw each other all the time.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR COETSER: Ms Anderson if I look at your statement, paragraph 3, you say
"Around 1985 I was working with the military structures of the ANC and was involved in Ordinance Work. In the main I was involved in the supply of weapons.  I was very much a rank and file member of Umkhonto weSizwe."

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR COETSER: Then if one turns to paragraph 11, sorry paragraph 12, you say
"Having been an MK member at the time, I can confirm that when the raid took place, most of the senior MK members based in Gaberone, were in Kabwe preparing for the Kabwe Conference."
Well obviously what that seems to say is that at the time of the raid, there were a number of senior MK personnel based in Gaberone, correct?

MS ANDERSON: No it would imply that the people who were senior in MK were not in Gaberone at the time.

MR COETSER: That were based in Gaberone?

MS ANDERSON: Correct, but it's not a statement about quantity.

MR COETSER: Certainly.  Now if one looks at the two quotations which I have taken from your statement, it seems to me to be pretty obvious that at that time and prior to this raid in 1985, Umkhonto weSizwe were using Gaberone as a base to carry out military operations in South Africa, simple as that.

MS ANDERSON: Gaberone was used in a very limited way and I have to tell you that in terms of supply of Ordinance, we were able to move so few weapons from there, we basically had to come up with other things, bigger things from elsewhere and so there was not a whole lot of military goings on because it was quite a narrow, it was obviously a front, all forward areas, all the areas bordering Botswana were areas we had to try to utilise.  Botswana was not absolutely major at that point.

MR COETSER: Well were military raids being carried out into South Africa from Umkhonto weSizwe based in Gaberone during 1985, prior to the raid?

MS ANDERSON: I was involved in Ordinance, which is the supply of weaponry, so I wasn't involved in raids.

MR COETSER: What was that weaponry to be used for?

MS ANDERSON: The weaponry was to be used for attacks and so on, within South Africa, against targets that I was not involved in who went on those raids, who carried out those raids or even what the targets were, I was involved in the supply of weaponry for the purpose of that attack.

MR COETSER: I see.  At the same time, if I understand your evidence correctly, there were it seems to me a good number of people, South Africans who had made Gaberone their home for various reasons associated with their opposition to apartheid and what they were doing at that time, was simply trying to get on with their lives and create an ordinary or fairly normal type of society in Gaberone, would that be right?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR COETSER: One thing that puzzles me, with respect, is why it is that Umkhonto weSizwe members who were based in Gaberone and who were obviously involved in planning and carrying out raids, military raids into South Africa, why they would so openly and freely associate with this community in Gaberone and thereby place their lives at risk.

MS ANDERSON: Do you mean place the other people's lives at risk?

MR COETSER: Yes.

MS ANDERSON: Well as I, I think I explained earlier, we had no idea that we were going to place their lives at risk until the raid happened.  We assumed that if the South African Defence Force had intelligence, it would be intelligence about MK activities, it wouldn't be just some hodge-podge conglomeration about people painting pictures and people dancing and muddle all of that up into one big target.  There was no knowledge, I mean we were people with needs like anybody else.  We needed to dance and have music like anybody else, so of course we mixed in that community, but we had no concept that the intelligence was so shoddy and ...(intervention)

MR COETSER: I hear what you're saying, but you see another witness testified that during the course of 1995 there were constantly alerts, so to speak, where the communities were alerted that there might be raids, etc, etc, so it is quite clear to me that in 1985 particular and prior to this raid, both the ordinary South African community who were against apartheid living in Gaberone at the time and Umkhonto weSizwe within Gaberone, were very sensitive to the possibility of attacks at any time and any information that came through suggesting that an attack might take place, was very quickly conveyed to the entire community to be on the look-out, correct?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.  I would actually even go further than that and say that from our side, from the ANC's side, our intelligence seems to have been better than the Defence Force Intelligence, in the sense that we had the understanding of when these things were going to take place.

MR COETSER: Yes, but the point is that there was such a high sensitivity towards the danger of attacks, consistent attacks, why is it then that MK members like yourself seem to have fraternised so openly and freely with South Africans that were living there, who weren't really involved in this type of activity, because surely to goodness under these circumstances there would always have existed the continual risk that these people that you fraternised with, may have been misunderstood by the South African Intelligence Industry, to have been more involved in the ANC than they actually were.  Wouldn't you say that this fraternisation in these circumstances was negligent?

MS ANDERSON: No, I don't think so, because the other aspect you're missing is that we, I mean the struggle wasn't going to end with 3, 4, 5 people in MK, okay, it wasn't going to end with a community in exile supporting the ANC, it was a question constantly of taking things forward, recruiting people, mixing, meeting people, so there's the element, I mean you talk about it as negligent, I don't think the word negligence comes into it.  What comes into it is necessity that one has to take, one has to develop the particular struggle in which one is involved.  This is a struggle against apartheid.

CHAIRPERSON: I think to cut a long story short, what is actually being put to you, let me put the question to you, that isn't it true that all these people whom you say were on the frills of the ANC at the very best for them, were not actually frilly people, but they were deep down in the heart of ANC and they themselves were targets.

MS ANDERSON: No, I'm not saying that.  I'm ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm saying what has been the questioning by the Advocate, he's leading towards that, the fact that you could mingle as MK members with so-called ordinary folk doesn't ring true, that's what's being suggested to you and therefore the irresistible conclusion or one of the conclusions is that they were not so innocent as you make out to be and there legitimate targets, can you deal with that?