Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

XOLINI TYALI: I had already heard from the soldiers that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo and now the police were telling the people to go and - telling anyone who had the car keys to go and fetch Mr Sawuti and that was in connection with maladministration of funds.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, therefore you confirm that it was not to remove Brig Gqozo.  When Mr Sawuti was fetched, the purpose was not to remove Brig Gqozo, not so?  It was for him to answer about misappropriation of funds.

XOLINI TYALI: Will you please repeat the question Sir?

MR NOMPOZOLO: When Mr Sawuti was fetched from his house the purpose was not to remove Brig Gqozo, it was for him, that is for Mr Sawuti to answer about misappropriation of funds.  To account for the misappropriation of funds.

XOLINI TYALI: I can say yes because whoever was announcing that he said anyone with the car keys should go and fetch Capt Sawuti because his name was implicated among the people who were maladministering the funds, that is when I got out.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you accompanied whoever went there, your aim was not to arrest Mr Sawuti for misappropriation of funds, it was to kidnap him, take him to the police college to join other police officers who were already held hostage there?

XOLINI TYALI: When we went to fetch Capt Sawuti we were told to come and fetch him because he was supposed to come and answer for himself as the implicated person and when we got into his house we told him so.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that you knocked in his house on the windows and on the door and you were shouting at his house that he is a thief, that he has misappropriated funds?

XOLINI TYALI: It that did happen, I am asking for forgiveness but all I know is that we knocked nicely at the door and his brother opened the door and we talked to him and he told us to wait for him at the lounge, he was busy dressing up and then he finished and then he told us to go.  If he says we knocked at the windows shouting at him saying that he was a thief, I apologise for that, but I do not remember seeing that happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What did you say when you met him in his house?  What did you say to him?  What was the reason for you to be there?

XOLINI TYALI: When this young man opened the door we asked for Capt Sawuti and this young man went to call him and then he inquired what was the visit about.  We told him that we were requested to go and fetch him because his name was implicated among the persons who had maladministered funds and he told us that he wanted to go and dress up and he came back.  When we got into the car we requested his firearm to be with us, not to be with him.  And then we took him to the hall and he joined the other officers on the podium.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Why did you request his firearm?  What was the purpose?  Was it to disarm him or was it to say that he's not fit to possess a service firearm?

XOLINI TYALI: We don't know what would come to his mind as a person who was implicated in this problem of squandering funds, perhaps he would shoot at us, that is why we requested - I'm not also saying that the firearm was not safe with him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were armed yourselves, all of you who were there, is that not so?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were armed with R5's, with R4's and with side arms, is it not so?

XOLINI TYALI: No we did not have the R5's, we had only pistols.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You did take out your firearms at his house and your tone was not as calm as it is today when you were addressing him.

XOLINI TYALI: If he says that we did that to him, we apologise for that although we did not talk to him roughly.  We were even chatting in the car and he even told us that he did not squander any funds and there was no chaos or squabble in the car, but if he says we did that, we ill-handled him, I am so sorry.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you went to his house, your purpose was to kidnap him, that is take him against his will.  You were not going to leave his house without him, even if he didn't want to go with you.

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you were doing that you did not have any political motive on your mind to achieve.

XOLINI TYALI: The aim of taking these officers into the college was to remove Brig Gqozo first of all, but when the police were discussing, the issue of funds came up and you were obliged to call the people who were implicated because that was not a very nice thing.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I correct to say, you are saying the purpose was to remove Brig Gqozo and you are saying that because others are saying that, otherwise you don't have anything to support your statement.

XOLINI TYALI: I can support my statement because I never heard the police singing toyi-toyi songs before in the government buildings.  I have never seen such behaviour, the behaviour that I witnessed on that particular day, that is why I am saying today that their aim was really to remove Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you were not part and parcel of those policemen, because one you were at the gate and all you were doing you were doing whatever is required to be done otherwise your mind was not set to do what the other policemen were doing because you were not part of the decision-making about those police.  I mean you were not part of the decision-making
by those policemen and moreover you were never informed by the police that they want to remove Brig Gqozo.

XOLINI TYALI: I was not at the gate as such but I would go to the gate and come back next to the hall.  Fortunately when I was at the gate the soldiers came in, the soldiers who said they were coming to join the group of people who said they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo.  I got that information from them.  I went back to the hall as we were told that the security should be tight.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, may I be corrected, I don't want to put what was not said to the applicant.  My understanding from Mr Mfene was that the six soldiers who arrived there, they were sent by Brig Gqozo to inquire what was happening there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well are we talking about the same soldiers?
Mr Mfene was talking about soldiers who came and wanted to find out what was going on and they left and Mfene and the others were left with some doubts, some suspicion and that's why they went to arm themselves but Mr Tyali is talking about soldiers who came there and who joined the police and who had said look the whole purpose is to get rid of Gqozo, so I'm not sure whether we're talking about the same soldiers.  Did you want to put to him what Mr Mfene said about his soldiers, because his soldiers seem to have left and this African soldier seemed to have joined.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I just converse the point?  The soldiers who told you that the purpose was to - that they also wanted to topple Mr Gqozo, did those soldiers leave the college?

XOLINI TYALI: They did not leave the college, instead they came and joined the part of the security at the college, they became part of the security.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, you were never informed by the police that they want to remove Mr Gqozo, not so?

XOLINI TYALI: I did not get that information from the people who were at the stage who were giving the other police microphones, I got that from the soldiers and I later got that as a rumour from the other people.  No one told me directly that the aim was to make Gqozo to step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And would you concede that you unlawfully took Mr Sawuti from his house?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that had you not fetched Mr Sawuti from his house, he wouldn't have been held as a hostage at Bisho?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct, Sir.