Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

MR MHLABA: That is correct Chairman.  It would appear that the only victim was the one police officer, and my instructions are that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, oh, I see that on page 50, I am just paging through, trying to see, I see on page 50, there is a notice to a Sergeant Prins of the Internal Security Branch, I am not sure what that is, but in any case, to the police in Queenstown, so there seems to be notice to two persons, but you say that on your instruction, in that shoot-out, there was one person injured, although your client, the applicant, is not aware of the identity of that person?

MR MHLABA: That is correct Chairman.  The applicant is aware that one person has been shot at by him, but he has fired several shots.  He can only tell of one victim who is certain, was hit by the fire.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you have formulated the amendment in more specific terms, or whether you had intended to do that as we went along, but if you have it formulated there in the sense of specifying the place and the date and the offences in question, if you have it available now, then perhaps you can give it to us.  If not, we can deal with the amendment first and then perhaps come back to that, if it is necessary.
	I don't know if you have it formulated there like in these specific terms?

MR MHLABA: The amendments are not per se formulated, but I have the facts, that can be done, it will not take very long to do that, and I submit, I concede that the form in particular, paragraph 9, was poorly completed and we can endeavour to try and formulate it in such a way that it will give some, can paint a particular picture to the Committee.  It will not take me very long.  A short adjournment will suffice for that purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.  Can you just give us, we know that the shoot-out was in November 1993, can you give us the rough date of the arrest and the possession of the explosives and the arms?

MR MHLABA: The applicant himself is not certain as to the correct date of the shoot-out at the squatter camp.  He is however aware of the date of the arrest, being the 24th of February 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the shoot-out at Marino or Marina, can you just give me the right name?

MR MHLABA: The right name is Marienhoek.

CHAIRPERSON: Marienhoek?

MR MHLABA: Marienhoek, as it appears at the foot of page 51 of the bundle, the notice given to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.   Thank you.   Adv Steenkamp, have you got any submissions on the application to amend?

ADV STEENKAMP: I have no submissions Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that the ostensible victims in the shoot-out, were given notice as per pages 50 and 51 of the record?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I am satisfied.  I can maybe just add, you will see there is actually no information contained in the bundle, referring to this incident.
	I was informed that none of these records are still in existence.  Though the incident happened in 1994, which I can't understand, but I understand the records aren't in existence.  I think my learned colleague also informed me this morning, that he was also informed that none of these records are in existence any more.  I have to apologise for that Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We have considered the application to amend the amnesty application to more explicitly include two incidents.  The first one relating to a shoot-out between the applicant and members of the police at Marienhoek in Queenstown in the Eastern Cape, as well as the incident relating to the arrest, the subsequent arrest of the applicant, whom according to Mr Mhlaba, who represents him today, has been a fugitive, his subsequent arrest on the 24th of February 1994, when he was in unlawful possession of explosives and arms.
	The application form has been completed by the applicant himself without any legal assistance and that much is apparent upon a reading of the application form.
	It is not unusual in the experience of the Committee to have application forms completed under those circumstances, purporting to deal with a number of incidents, which should form the subject matter of the amnesty application, in a round about way and not as clearly and precisely and ...(indistinct) as obviously the case is where an applicant is assisted legally in completing the application form.
	Mr Mhlaba has drawn our attention to the fact that in the bundle of documents before us, there is indication of notice having been given in terms of Section 19(4) of Act 34 of 1995, to two members of the South African Police Services in Queenstown, who it appears, are interested parties in respect of the shoot-out involving the applicant.
	The application form itself, at various places, various sections of the form, purports to refer to not only an incident in Soweto but also to incidents in Queenstown.  Adv Steenkamp, the Leader of Evidence of the Committee, who appears here today, has indicated to us that although this matter is not, or does not relate to a trial that was heard long ago, the records relating to the - particularly the Queenstown, Eastern Cape incidents, are not available.  He has indicated to us that Mr Mhlaba has also searched for those records, and have also been unable to locate them, with the result that as is normally the case in these applications, the relevant court records are not before the Committee.
	We are however satisfied that no prejudice would result from us granting the application to amend the amnesty application in the sense which I have referred to.  We are satisfied that all of the interested parties have been given notice and we are satisfied that as perhaps incomplete as it might appear on the face of it, that the application form itself, does refer to the incidents which forms the subject matter of the amendment.
	We accordingly grant the order to amend the amnesty application, in the sense of including the incident relating to the shoot-out in November 1993 as well as the incident relating to the arrest of the applicant on 24 February 1994.
	Mr Mhlaba, do you want to proceed?

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will start leading the applicant.  Mr Khumalo, for record purposes, can you explain to the Commission where and when were you born?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: I was born in Soweto, Zola 3, in 1970, that was the 5th of January.

MR MHLABA: Can you briefly give this Committee the background of your education, where did you school and up to what standard?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: I have a lower standard of education.  I just happened to be wise.  I went as far as standard 4.

MR MHLABA: Are you a member of any political organisation or a supporter thereof, and if so, tell us the name of the organisation?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, I am a member of the present political party, the African National Congress and a member of Umkhonto weSizwe as well.

MR MHLABA: You are appearing before this Committee today, to apply for an amnesty in respect of certain offences and can you briefly explain to this Committee which are those offences?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: The offences for which I am applying amnesty for, include possession of explosives, firearm, ammunition and attempted murders, and murder.

MR MHLABA: Let us deal firstly with the offence of which was committed in Soweto, that was during July 1992, and according to the information at my disposal, it was the 31st of July 1992.  Can you still remember?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, I remember.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee what happened?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, I can explain, no problem.

MR MHLABA: Go ahead.