Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

MR BLACK: Very briefly, Mr Chairman.  Mr Sehlwana, I just want to understand when you stopped the combi, after you had stopped the combi and after you had jumped out of the combi and you started to run, you say that you heard a voice in Zulu say run the other way.  Do you remember that evidence?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They didn't say we are going this way, they said where are you running to or where were you going to.

MR BLACK: Yes, okay, sorry. Now that voice, did that, was that from outside the combi?  Somebody outside the combi.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It was from inside the combi.

MR BLACK: From inside the combi, okay.  So when you, after you had alighted from the combi, after it had stopped, were you running in the direction which you had rehearsed the previous day?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't follow the way as in the instruction.

MR BLACK: So you took a totally different way that you had rehearsed?   The way you ran ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: In fact, his full answer, if interpreted was that I ran the wrong way, but in the end I ended up running the correct direction.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That portion was not interpreted.

MR BLACK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what he said.

MR BLACK: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now did anyone, was anyone else given money after that exercise?  Anyone of the security police, that you know of.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know, I just know that I am the one who was given the money.  I don't know about the others, whether they got money or not.

MR BLACK: Had you been on previous operations as well?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It was the first time.

MR BLACK: I have no further questions, thank you.  Except, if I may just ask.  Was it normal to your knowledge, for people to be paid money after an operation, if they had done a good job in the security police?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Since it was the first time that this incident happened in Pietersburg, I don't know whether there was such goings-on of people getting money, or when it happens.

MR BLACK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sehlwana, if this was your first operation, for how long had Mr Madiba been your informer?  Sorry, actually I just gave your informer a new name.  In fact, it is Mabena.  Thank you.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct. I won't be able to tell with clarity.  However, since from the time I entered the security, it looks like it was from 1984, if I remember well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you handling him directly, or was any member of the security branch also having contact with Mr Mabena during 1984 until the time of this incident?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It was myself and Koos van den Berg.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And for this particular operation, do you know if Mr Van den Berg had any contact with Mr Mabena, other than yourself?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't have the clear picture with that regard, because we are using different cars, but he also used to see him on some other days.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am talking about this particular operation, I am sure during your reports to Mr Van den Berg, if he had made contact, he could have deduced that.  Were you unable to deduce whether there had been any contacts by him with Mr Madina?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say it was like that, it could be like that, but we were working together and we used to go out and I won't know where he was going and he would go out and collect a statement and all I know is that he also used to see him too.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you on friendly terms with Mr Van den Berg?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And with Mr Erwee?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They were my seniors, I wasn't that used to them, I was only used to the one I used to go out with.

ADV DE JAGER: And as far as you know you were on good terms with Mr Van der Merwe, and Mr Coetsee?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No.

ADV DE JAGER: And you and Mr Fuchs?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say the office was in one place, so we will meet.  There were people who were working together and there was no problem between me and him.

ADV DE JAGER: But it sounded to me that he didn't have a liking in you because he said you wouldn't get any promotion?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know.  Because Fuchs is a joking person. I don't know whether he was saying from his heart that I wasn't getting promotion, because he wasn't a senior.

ADV DE JAGER: But he was the one who sort of teased you at the braai and said you won't get any promotion.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I am the one who asked him to promote me.

ADV DE JAGER: And if he was a junior how could he promote you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I mean these are the things that we used to talk between me - it was between me and him. I didn't say, I am not saying that he was in a position to promote me.

ADV DE JAGER: But you are now asking this person to promote you, after you have seen him committing a crime, in shooting that person lying on the ground there.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say that's what I saw and what I did and I don't know how to answer that question.

ADV DE JAGER: So didn't you feel that this person is acting wrongly and how could you go and ask him for a promotion now?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say it was after the incidents and they were drunk. I was also drunk and we were just talking.

ADV DE JAGER: Because he was drunk and you were also drunk.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't say we were really drunk, but we were drinking.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were also drinking at this braai.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, they also gave me some beers to drink.  They gave me one can and I drank whilst sitting in the car.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sehlwana, I just want clarity on what you have responded to what my colleague has put to you.  Are you saying that when you requested Mr Fuchs to promote you, you were saying that statement in a jest?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know how to put it. I was just, I would say ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sehlwana, I think I just need your explanation, you don't have to give me an introductory remark.  Was that statement in jest or not?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say he was joking.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think that is pretty sufficient.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, before you adjourn, may I please be allowed to just put one thing in case it becomes important.  Mr Van den Berg says that he never took a statement from you. You said so in your affidavit which is part of the bundle.  At page 11, that's the newly marked 11, Mr Chairman, it is A, page 10.
"Koos van den Berg het 'n verklaring oor die voorval by my geneem."
He says that never happened.  Could you be mistaken?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: What I know is that he took a statement from me.

ADV VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying he took a statement from you?  I am just trying to think whether you are saying that you reported to him orally or whether you are conveying that he took a pen and a piece of paper to write down the statement from you, or whether he just asked you and then you reported to him what happened, orally?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Are you talking after the incident, I will try to explain.  He took a statement from me about the incident as to what happened at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: The way you remember, was it - are we talking here of the written statement?  That is what I want to find out.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I am talking about a written statement, about what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to make a follow-up on that or not?