Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't even remember that date, even what you are saying to me, I don't know anything.

ADV VISSER: Now this I must put to you because it's important, already on the 6th of July, the Sunday, Koos van den Berg, together with two members of the South African Defence Force entered Botswana and took up an observation post near a fountain where you were to meet the people who were going to come into the Republic.  Now let me break that up for you.  Were you supposed to meet these people at or near a fountain in Botswana?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes it looks - there is a fountain, as to whether they went there I don't know anything about that.  It is true that at that place there was a fountain.

ADV VISSER: And Kobus Fourie was on the South African side on a hill at an observation post, do you know about that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know.

ADV VISSER: Well I think you should think about it because you do know Mr Sehlwana, I will tell you why.  Because during the course of the morning Mr Fourie will tell the Committee members you came running back from Botswana waving your arms, do you remember anything like that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: May you please repeat your question, I don't understand your question.

ADV VISSER: On - forget about the date, on a morning when you were supposed to go and collect the people at the fountain you went there and you came back waving your arms, running towards where the observation post was where Mr Fourie was, do you remember that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that Sir.

ADV VISSER: He will tell the Committee members that he left his observation post where he was also with members of the South African Defence Force, and that you then told him that the people did not arrive; second, that there were now going to be six people that were going to come in; and third, that they were waiting for money and weapons.  Do you remember anything like that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No I don't know, I don't know anything.
If it happened I don't remember.

ADV VISSER: Now the evidence will then be that a whole new planning had then to be done, completely new planning had to be done, and the reason for that is because it's now six people that are going to come in, and first of all you could not transport them with the beige Toyota motor car which you would have used in the first place, do you remember that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't remember that Sir, I don't remember that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser to the extent that it is possible, we appreciate that you are appearing for a number of people, but to the extent that it is possible would you please when you put a particular version to this witness, would you please indicate as to whose version it's going to be amongst your clients.

ADV VISSER: Yes I certainly will Mr Chairman.  May I just summarise.  So far, obviously Fourie and Koos van den Berg will give the evidence regarding their manning of the observation posts.  The fact of the beige Toyota motor car, Mr Chairman, there's no one particular person, I mean they all say so.  So I can't really put a name to that statement.
	What I perhaps should ask the witness is, initially were you going to transport whoever was going to come into the Republic of South Africa with a beige Toyota motor car?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't remember well.  I am asking that you should ask me about six people.  I did explain even in my statement how I went about that plan.  But when you speak of a beige Toyota car I don't know about it.  I remember only on that day when I was supposed to pick up the six people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Visser, are we talking of a combi here when you are referring to a beige Toyota motor car?

ADV VISSER: No, no ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Or you are referring to a private motor car?

ADV VISSER: No Mr Chairman we are referring to a passenger car.  And part of the planning, because there were six people now coming in was that a combi had to be arranged, and in fact a Police combi was made available for the purpose.

ADV DE JAGER: With what did you travel down to Botswana?   Did you use a motor car or how did you travel on going to Botswana from Pietersburg?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was using 4 X 4 Datsun car which I was using at my work, that is the work I was using the border road, but I jumped the fence when I went to Botswana.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, and were you always using the same motor car, the same 4 X 4?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I used to, at my work I used to use 4 X 4 cars, even if I used to change them, but all the time I used to drive 4 X 4 when I was supposed to meet my contact in Botswana.

ADV DE JAGER: And your contact in Botswana did he know your car, and that you were travelling with a 4 X 4?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: At times he used to see it.

ADV DE JAGER: And why then had you to tell him that you will need your father's taxi to convey the people, why couldn't you take him with your car?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Everybody would see that that was a police car, so I was not supposed to use it.

ADV DE JAGER: But at times he did see your car, and didn't he recognise it to be a police car?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I am talking about my contact, that's the one who knew that I am a policeman.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Well let me just put it to you in fairness.  The fact that you told the police, that you told Koos van den Berg, rather - I am sorry, may I repeat that.  The fact that you told Kobus Fourie on the morning of the 8th of July that these people that were coming in would be armed necessitated a new planning to prevent these people from getting to an area where there were people around, do you agree with that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I do agree.  But when you come to the issue of Kobus Fourie, I don't agree.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who did you tell Mr Sehlwana that the six people who would be coming into the country would be armed, was that information passed to only Mr van den Berg?   Didn't you interact with Mr Fourie?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I used to work with van den Berg so I told every information to van den Berg.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now was that information that the people who would be coming into the country would be armed, was that told to Mr van den Berg during your initial discussions with your informant?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I hear you say about being armed, but when they came they didn't tell me about arms from the beginning, I didn't know anything about whether they would be armed or not.  I knew only that I should bring people.  When I met Teboga, that is the one who explained the direction.  When I say they were armed, that issue came later not initially.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did Mr Boyikanyo advise you that the six people would be armed during your first meeting with him in Botswana?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: He explained to me that those people should go to Johannesburg and Phalaborwa and the two of them should go to make a plan, so that's when I learned that they will be armed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He didn't say so specifically, was that your own deduction that they would be armed?   He didn't specifically say to you the six people that you would have to transport would be armed, that was your own deduction?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Initially he told me that those people should go for a certain plot in Pietersburg and others should go to Phalaborwa.  So he didn't tell me as to whether they would be armed.  But the issue of being armed is of my own deduction.