Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: No, no the reason why nothing was done to mephysically was that I immediately left the scene, I walked awayfrom the courtroom.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was there an incident that took place at yourhouse, please tell us about that?

ANSWER: Yes in December 1990 or maybe 91, yes I think1991, the Three Million gang went to Brent Park on a Saturday,I was not in the shop.   They went into the shop ...

<UNKNOWN>: : Just tell us what shop are you referring to?

ANSWER: That's a general dealer shop which belonged tome.  They went into the shop armed with firearms, pangas, knives,they ran into the shop, they asked my wife Edith where I was. She said that I was not at the shop, and I wasn't.   They thenstarted to grab some of the stuff on the shelves, cigarettes,money, they took whatever they could lay their hands on in theshop.   They told my wife that she must tell me that they wouldkill me wherever they found me.   That was on the Saturday orrather the Friday, no the Saturday.  On that Sunday, the nextSunday it happened again.   They once again came to my shop, onceagain looking for me, they did exactly the same, they took someof my stuff, money etc.  I reported it to the police, these twoincidents, on that Monday it happened once again.   On Mondayat about 4 o'clock I refrained from going to the shop becauseI knew my life was in danger and the shop is a public place whereanybody can enter.   My wife ran out from the back door, she wentto call my father, she wanted help.   My father had a licensedfirearm in his possession, I don't have a firearm.  My fathercame and he also phoned the police.   Now there is a satellitepolice station in Brent Park and this Sergeant, I can't rememberhis surname now, but this Sergeant came, my father detained themin the kombi, he found them in the shop and he detained them inthe kombi.   My father said to them what do you want, you won'tleave here.   I was at home at the time with some of the othermembers of the ANC and the Youth League.   One of my friends ranor drove to my house and came and told me that the Three Milliongang members were at my shop and that they wanted to steal andtake things in the shop.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes, I think that will suffice.   Was therean incident in which members of the Youth League came to your,or were attacked at your house by the Three Million gang?

ANSWER: Yes, yes we were sitting on the stoep and a kombiarrived at my house and some of the members noticed this very,very quickly and they started running away in various directions.  Now I would like to make it very clear to the Committee at myhouse there was a very high wall with fences and gates.   My gateswere always kept locked and nobody could just enter if I was insideand this kombi just drove past.

<UNKNOWN>: : So there was no attack?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Maybe just to round it off Mr Bloem, the kombiwhich drove past your home, what kind of a kombi was it, was ita taxi?

<UNKNOWN>: : No, no it was not a taxi there were gang membersinside this kombi.

<UNKNOWN>: : What were they doing?

ANSWER: They were planning to attack our friends or comrades,and myself.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is that what you thought?

ANSWER: Pardon me?

<UNKNOWN>: : Is that what you thought, that they were comingto attack you?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : The next aspect which I'd like to come to dealswith the alleged involvement of the police in general or the roleplayed by the police in solving these problems.   What can youtell us about that?   Please just wait a moment I will pose thequestion so we can be quite brief, so we don't have a long story.  Were there any meetings held by yourself or the other ANC leadersto try and seek peace and a solution for the problems with thepolice in the period 1990-1992?

ANSWER: I will talk about one incident relating to ameeting at which we talked to the District Commissioner, he'snow Brigadier Van Wyk.   We held a meeting with him and we askedthat they must please do something about the problems posed bythis violent band and the answer given to us by this Brigadierwas that we were harassing the Three Million gang and that wehad to stop bothering them.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were there any meetings held by yourself and/orthe ANC leaders with the Three Million gang or George Ramasimong'sparents at which attempts were made to secure peace?

ANSWER: Yes Chairperson, many meetings were held at which
I for instance with George, Diwiti and Rev Gozongo we often hadmeetings to try and solve this problem of violence.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were there any solutions to these problemsas a result of all these meetings?

ANSWER: No, no absolutely nothing came of it.   I mustmake this very clear, the reason as far as I'm concerned why therewere never any positive results as a result of the meetings, mayI mention that?

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes, yes tell us briefly?

ANSWER: The reason was that this man was in the powerof the police, even if he tried very hard to escape that situationhe was used by the police force.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you say that Mr Bloem?

ANSWER: The reason why I'm saying this the day when weall got together when this thing started happening when the YouthLeague did not want the meeting to continue, Ramasimong, Diwitigave Rev Gozongo and myself a piece of paper and he showed usand he said if Dennis and Maruti, Dennis and Maruti, this thingwill go far if we don't stop it.   Captain Schilling gave me thisnumber and told me that if I need weapons I must just phone him25811, that was the telephone number of Capt Schilling.

<UNKNOWN>: : Alright, let us leave that there unless youhave something else that you'd like to mention?   The involvementof the gang, or rather the relationship between the gang and theInkatha Freedom Party, what can you tell us about that?

ANSWER: There were various allegations in this regard,I could well believe that, I could well believe that there wassuch a relationship.   This white Sierra which had been mentioned,I saw this car personally on various occasions, saw it enteringKroonstad.

<UNKNOWN>: : Allegations were also made about Inkatha flagswhich were used at funerals, were you aware of that?

ANSWER: Yes it is so.   I always monitored the situationin Maokeng just to see what was happening and that is indeed so,banners were carried at the funerals.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know about Mr Msibi, the Inkatha leader?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct I know Mr Msibi.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who was he, give us a bit more information?

ANSWER: Mr Msibi was an official in the Inkatha FreedomParty in the Free State, he was a senior official.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were there any talks with him about the issueof peace and peace initiatives?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman I remember a day upon which Mr Msibiand Mr Kumalo were here in Mr Lefafa's house, we met and we discussedthis situation of violence in Kroonstad.

<UNKNOWN>: : Just to round it off Mr Bloem, you will agreethat it was a very hard time for the community of Kroonstad?

ANSWER: Yes it was a very bitter, very difficult timefor the residents of Kroonstad, Kroonstad white and black.

<UNKNOWN>: : You sit here as a leader today, a leader inthe community, what would your message be as regards all the manybad things which happened, what would be your message to the communitytoday?

ANSWER: I was raised in a Christian home, I was verywell brought up and I don't believe that anybody can condone whathappened here in Maokeng, from both sides.   I think that thepeace which we are enjoying in Maokeng now I will pray that itwill always continue.   I would never again want to see children,men, women being buried week after week, I don't want to see thathappening again in Kroonstad.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION
DENNIS BLOEM (suo)
EXAMINATION BY MR MOTSEPE

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Bloem we have heard about the involvementof the police with the Three Million gang, can you just elaborateon that?