Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR MOSTERT: Within the context of your senior membership in the AWB, Mr Lottering testified that although he received his instructions from Mr de Beer, he was under the fixed impression that his instructions came from the AWB and the CP.  In terms of what you have just said, is it acceptable that he could have believed that his instructions were originally from the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, that is completely acceptable because at that stage there were various factions within the AWB and we as Commanders of a right wing organisation which housed activists supported them.  I would like to say that the Aquillos were selected by or, according to the criteria of persons who would carry out instructions almost immediately - if I might say that they were people who could be manipulated, that you could give them instructions and no matter what the instructions were, they would have carried them out immediately and those sort of people were taken up in the Aquillo - among others Mr Lottering.

MR MOSTERT: Could you inform us with regard to the origin and the establishment of underground organisations and the splinter groups how it functioned?  Was it with the approval of the movement or was it inspired by the AWB?  How did this happen?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: My viewpoint, as well as that of Mr Terre'blanche was that it was acceptable and good if there were people who were carrying out instructions who were not directly connected to the AWB, in other words, if such a person were to be caught as a result of a murder or a robbery then it would not have left tracks which would lead to the AWB.  Actually, as Commanders, we were given instructions by Mr Terre'blanche to operate in such a way and that is why it is very difficult for certain people who appear before this Committee today to prove who gave the instructions because the actual people who gave the instructions are actually in some ways too cowardly to appear here and support those who are now in prison as a result of instructions that were given.  I would also like to add, Chairperson, that at that time when people struggled with the collection of finances and funds they were constantly told that if they did not have money to continue that they should not come to us and ask for money, they should commit robbery.

MR MOSTERT: ...[inaudible] escape?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Regarding escapes, we told the people prior to the fact that - and we also this to them when we visited them in prison, we told them that if they could escape and if we could help them escape we should do it immediately so that we could continue with the struggle.  That was also a general order which was issued.  I would just like to say that the situation changed in terms of the Amnesty Committee, there is renewed hope for the people and it is no longer that way but that is how it used to be.

MR MOSTERT: Mr Dawie de Beer - could you confirm for the Committee that he was a member of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Mr Dawie de Beer was a member of the AWB, he was also the administrative head of Aquillo.

MR MOSTERT: Do you know from whom he received instructions to do recruitment for The Order of Death?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Unfortunately I don't know where he received those instructions or from whom.

MR MOSTERT: No further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOSTERT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp do you have any questions you would like to ask the witness?

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few questions.
	You have said that the struggle wasn't about innocent women and children it was against the ANC?  It was a struggle of terrorism irrespective of who it was?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I'll say it again today that it was aimed at placing pressure on the struggle.  If I had planted a bomb at that point I wouldn't have asked who was there irrespective of whether it would have been a white or black or an English person or a farmer, it wasn't about that, it was about placing the attention upon our freedom struggle.

MR STEENKAMP: Well briefly the question is that you have testified that the instruction was to destroy the ANC people or the enemy as you refer to it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: This Mr Makgalamele, we don't know who he was, he was simply driving in his vehicle, he was attacked and killed.

MR STEENKAMP: What I want to know is would the AWB at
that stage have approved of this action?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, definitely, the AWB would have approved of it.  I know about instructions which were issued to plant bombs when it was pertinently stated that it was within the interest of focusing attention on our freedom struggle.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know that there were cases or a specific case where an instruction was issued, according to the applicant's version, that part of the AWB initiation was to commit a test murder.  Was that the policy of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes it was.  I would like to say that these young men grew up under good circumstances and they were not a accustomed to killing and they had to learn how to kill.  Unfortunately this is true.

MR STEENKAMP: And today, if I might ask you, it might not be relevant however, would you still or it would appear to me that the AWB behaved purely in a racist fashion involving the killing of black people, there were no political undertones?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: There were also white people, if we had the opportunity to kill Pik Botha or F.W. de Klerk or even P.W. Botha in their time we would have tried but they were too closely guarded and we couldn't get close enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Steenkamp, Mr Moloi do you have any questions?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Kriel, you were not a member of Order van die Dood?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No.

MR MOLOI: Order van die Dood as I understand it from Mr Lottering's evidence was a splinter group, a breakaway group from the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, you could say that.  I would just like to add that in the inner circles we encouraged this happening because people like Mr Lottering were easily manipulated and ...[intervention]

MR MOLOI: Was that Order van die Dood a breakaway group from the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes it was a breakaway group.  However, we approved it as such and we allowed it to function in that way because we didn't want any tracks leading to the AWB.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] involved in the strategy of the Order van die Dood?  You were not involved in their meetings and then how they planned and executed their plans?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: One could manipulate people to commit certain deeds so that it wouldn't point at you directly.  That breakaway action was regarded as such by the AWB.  We knew that these people were capable of killing and that they would kill and we subtly encouraged it.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] involved with the planning of their policy and so on?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I was not a part of the planning but I was part of the encouragement and upsweeping of the people when they received their training for Aquillo by telling them that they must kill the enemy and these were young men and they took it up quite literally so.

MR MOLOI: [inaudible] these offences were committed by Mr Lottering, he was no longer a member of the AWB about which you testified today?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, although he was no longer a member of the AWB officially, we saw each other regularly, we talked to each other regularly and there were other factions.  There were people who were experiencing problems with the leader of the AWB but that did not mean that they lived in enmity with the officers of the AWB and as the officers of the AWB, we encouraged the establishment of cells and other groups.

MR MOLOI: When you identified the ANC as the total enemy in the AWB, did you define what the ANC was?