Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  We are proceeding today with the hearing that we started yesterday.  When we adjourned yesterday, Mr Pienaar was being questioned by Mr Moerane.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: (s.u.o.)

MR MOERANE: (cont)
	Mr Pienaar, when we adjourned yesterday we were talking about the clothes of the deceased in the first incident.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: I am further told and instructed that the deceased were kept at the mortuary in conditions that were shocking to the parents and particularly Mr Naidoo and one of the female persons were kept together, one on top of the other.  Any comments?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, I would agree that any mortuary is not a pretty place to have a look at.  I cannot recall whether Mr Naidoo was placed with one of the women, it may be possible.

MR MOERANE: Would I be correct in saying that you were expecting a second infiltration after the first one?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Was that as a result of information that you had received from Lt Mose.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Not Lt Mose, Mr Chairperson, from the informer.

MR MOERANE: Did Lt Mose not give you any report to the effect that if the first infiltration was successful, another infiltration was planned for the Sunday?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was discussed, but more by the informer self, the information came from there.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry, I don't understand that answer.  Are you saying both gave you that information?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No Chairperson, that information came mainly from the source

CHAIRPERSON: Did Lt Mose give any information at all to you?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot recall that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you discuss with Lt Mose?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was probably actions, but the information did not come from him.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, but just to clarify finally, mainly from the informer, the other portion being from?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was all from the source.  That is all where the information came from.

MR MOERANE: When did you receive this information from your source?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was with the first meeting where I received all the information from the group, or of the group, MK members who would infiltrate and the number of 36 was mentioned.

MR MOERANE: No, no Warrant Officer, I am talking about the information to the effect that if the first infiltration had been a success, there would be a further infiltration on the Sunday.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: The question is, when did you obtain that information?  It must obviously have been after the first incident.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct Chairperson.  I am not entirely certain whether the source was there again.  Whether Mr Theron saw the source, I am not certain.

MR MOERANE: And for that purpose it would have been important for you to see to it that news of the killing of the first group was not disseminated.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.  I also requested that the incident not be made known.

MR MOERANE: On the contrary, I suggest that positive steps were put in place to deceive the people in Swaziland, to send a message to the effect that the first group had arrived safely, not so?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And how was that done?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That would have been done by the source, that the infiltration was successful.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the source, are you referring to the same informer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: So she had to spin a yarn and tell the people in Swaziland that confirmation of the safe arrival of the first group had been obtained?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And to your knowledge she did this?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR MALAN: Mr Pienaar, the question is to your knowledge, not if you believe so.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: To my knowledge yes, because the second infiltration did take place.

MR MALAN: That is an inference that you draw, that is not on your knowledge whether she carried over the information.  Did she tell you?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Not to me, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did Theron tell you?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot recall whether he told me.

MR MALAN: So in other words it's not to your knowledge?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I would accept that.

MR MOERANE: Mr Pienaar let's come now to the planning for the second operation.  When was that done?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I think it was the Sunday, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Do you remember that the people from Vlakplaas were at a place called Island Rock, where they were having a four day team-building workshop.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I've heard of that Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Now did this planning on the Sunday involve Vlakplaas people, or was it your planning commenced without their assistance?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, no, if I recall correctly and I speak under correction, discussions were held between myself and Mr de Kock that they would indeed return and he did maintain contact with me.  As I said, the Sunday he arrived there again and we discussed the thing again.  The Sunday afternoon, I think it was in the afternoon, I got hold of my direct Commander, Col Deetlefs and informed him about the possible infiltration.

MR MOERANE: You just informed him about the possible infiltration?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, Chairperson, and he also came down to Piet Retief.

MR MOERANE: Now was Maj Deetlefs part of the planning for the next operation?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: He was, Chairperson, I had to inform him.  It was my duty, because he was my direct Commander he was involved.

MR MOERANE: What did this planning involve?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was the same planning as for the previous incident, setting up an ambush.

MR MOERANE: And obtaining this vehicle, obtaining the driver, Sgt Manzini.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane, if I could just interpose.  Was there any reason why Lt Mose wasn't used in the second plan, seeing that the first incident he performed, stopped the vehicle where it was meant to be stopped etc.?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot recall why we did not use him in the second instance.  I'm not certain what it was about any more.

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Moerane.  Mr Pienaar you said it was your duty to inform Deetlefs, as your direct Commander.  Why did you not inform him with the first incident?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: He was informed Chairperson, but he was not available to come down to Piet Retief, he had some other duty to perform.

MR MALAN: But he had knowledge of the ambush at the fist instance?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, only that there would be an infiltration, but he was not involved with the first instance with particulars there and the discussions that were held there, not at all.

MR MALAN: So why was he involved in the second one?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I found him before the time, Chairperson and I told him he must come down to Piet Retief, which he then did.

MR MALAN: And at the first instance you say you could not find him?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I found him later.  I only informed him that there may be a possible infiltration but he was not available to come down to Piet Retief, so he did not have any knowledge of the circumstances of what we would do there.

MR MALAN: So what did you inform him at the second instance?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That there would be another infiltration.  He did have the opportunity to come down to Piet Retief and we planned and discussed the thing there.

MR MOERANE: Who was present at the planning session?