Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I don't know whether there is anything your   colleagues ...[intervention]
PASTOR McCAULEY No.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're not going to add? Thank you very much indeed. Doctor   Mgojo?

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I just want to commend this presentation.   First it starts with confession and it goes deep in the confession, so that   by the time the plan is given or the programme, one has already been touched   by the sincere confession of the church. We just thank the Rustenberg Conference   which became ...[indistinct] a damascus road for you for the experience. 
And we thank you too for the kind of programme which you have suggested here,   it is not something which it abstract, it's there. I just have one question.   In the Black communities - especially in these townships and rural areas, you   find that sometimes the signs of the kingdom are missing. 
You know that the gospel has to plan certain signs of the kingdoms of hope   and I'm saying this because I find that most of the Black communities find it   to have been very hard to have the worship in places - the churches where they   can assemble together and share this kind of experience. What provision is going   to be made by your church to address this as a type of restitution during this   time?
PASTOR McCAULEY Pastor Mosa, would you like to just put input on the changes   that we've made and the direction we're going?

PASTOR MOSA: One of the things we've had a problem with in trying to get land   and whatever - you know sites in places, is that we come in as churches, we   don't have funds and particularly in the past, we didn't have connections with   the right people and so on and

IFCC: has come in to put us in contact with the   right people. And where necessary, if they were to stand in as guarantors to   the fact that we would be able to execute what we promised to do, they would   come in.
Right now, coming from Soweto ourselves - our church being in Soweto, recently   we were able to get some piece of ground through the help that we have received   - not necessarily financial help, but it was in terms of them putting us in   contact with the right people and so on.
PASTOR McCAULEY Could I just answer that a little bit better and say that   from our past history, we were very close in losing our Black constituency and   nearly becoming all White at one time - not our local church, but the organisation.   On the basis of the Rustenberg, Boipatong and Bisho incidents, my eyes were   opened dramatically on the role of the church on a social gospel. 
We then began to address these very things that you're talking about and it's   a process now that's starting to come into being on the basis of addressing   rural areas. How can we get a redistribution programme going from our White   churches that have finances, to help the ones who do not have any? 
We're in the process right now of doing very practical things, we're restructured   everything, we have a broad leadership of our communities where there are respected   people - where we never had that before, and leadership that will bring true   redistribution of those finances.
And we at this time think that's a major, major way of restitution in our own   organisation with our own people, is to make sure that the ones who have had   the opportunity to have more finances than the others, to help them now achieve   the goals that they have to.

KHOZA MGOJO: The last question Sir, is on the leadership. Is there any attempt   made by your church to reflect a type of leadership which would reflect our   situation as it is in South Africa - if I finish, I mean racially and gender?

PASTOR LODEWYK: Chairperson, the way has been paved - a few years ago, for   every single person as an ordained minister, to stand for any available post.   We have a national executive of 24 people of which the majority is Black, including   ordained woman ministers up to the highest level. 
We have a number of ordained ministers throughout our churches serving right   up to executive level, so we have moved in that direction. However, we will   endeavour to ensure that a true reflection of the nation is shown within all   of the bodies of the

IFCC: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thomas?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I am just adding to the list of what you are doing which   are very important, they're quite laudable. I am saying "Can you please   consider putting up schools for formal education because in that regard, you   are teaching the communities how to fish"? The moral values at this stage   which are in tatters, can best be restored when we begin to teach the youth   at an early age and let them grow up with sound moral standards, thank you.
PASTOR McCAULEY A good illustration - and I agree with you 100%, is someone   once said "If you went into the camps where the people have no housing   or anything - the squatter areas, and you told them that if the crime did not   decrease then we would have a real problem with our economy", that would   be the same as telling your children not to kick or hit the neighbours when   they visit you.
So a moral revolution I believe, is the major strength and force that we have   to look at as the role of the church and religious leaders in the future and   one of them is education. And how we see the moral revolution taking place is   in the format of a very strong educational programme for the disadvantaged and   those who do not have the opportunity to have the same schooling as others do   in other areas. And we take to heart what you've said, and we realise that is   a major, major challenge for us to put into substance.

CHAIRPERSON: Bongani?

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you. Pastor Ray, your submission has dealt very practically   with the issue of restitution, in fact I started wondering whether I'm listening   to a Pentecostal person because normally you deal with the matters in a very   spiritual level and very practically you have dealt with this matter.
I would like to just put a question that I put through to Chief Rabbi Harris   yesterday. In our Business Hearing there was a practical proposal of how we   could deal with the fact that this country happens to have the biggest gap between   those who have and have in abundance and those who are having very little, in   fact subsist from day to day. The proposal was that of a wealth tax which was   put through by Professor Terblanche, I would like to hear what your comment   is personally - if not representatively, of the group you are representing.
PASTOR McCAULEY I've been very frustrated in addressing and visiting with   wealthy business on the basis that I was hoping that would come forth voluntarily,   that we shouldn't have to have gone to the place now where we are going to enforce   certain things. I think that it is very important that we do that and I wish   that certain people would take that initiative without anybody making them do   it. 
One of the reservations that have come up - which I believe then we should   put conditionally into that, is that we need to make sure that the funds are   distributed to those who need to get it - I don't want the gravy to get any   thicker if it is in anyway there, so I think we'll have to build in some conditions.