Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Freeth, you have given us a very moving testimony.  Moving not only because of the sorrow that it has called up in memory, but also a moving tribute to the courage and persistence of yourself and many others who were with you.
 Proving I think the value of that witnessing presence in an area of conflict.  Valuable because of the support that it gives to the people who are present, valuable in terms of the meticulous records that you kept and I think that we have all listened with great, have been very moved as we've listened, but I've also been inspired by, as I said, the courage and the valuable contribution that your actions and the actions of others took.  Thank you very much, for coming today.

CHAIRPERSON: Revd Freeth, we just have one small question by way of clarification which will be asked by Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson.  I think that we are really encouraged to hear experiences such as yours in the face of so much inhumanity.  All the stories that we've heard from yesterday, in fact throughout our hearings, it is very encouraging to hear a story that shows the humanity of people, particularly in this country that is so divided with racial ideology and particularly from our history in those years which was clearly a history of us and them, a history that defined Black people as objects, not to be cared for.
 Now when you demonstrate the kind of support and the kind of humanity that you have explained to us, described to us today, it is really very encouraging.  You remind us of people like Bishop David Russel who literally laid his life down, he laid on the ground to prevent a casper and also people like Beyers Naude who served many years under house arrest for posing apartheid. Those people and people like yourself clearly show that there is still hope in this country and I just wanted you to comment on the belief both in this country and abroad that if White people in this country had campaigned and opposed apartheid in a strong way, we wouldn't be where we are today if White people had in their numbers opposed apartheid, not in singular opposition such as the people I have mentioned, then we wouldn't be where we are today.
 What is your view on that comment, what is your comment on that view?

UNKNOWN: I am quite sure that you are 100% right.  If White people had had the humanity, the honesty, the courage and the insight to see through the system, we would I think have not allowed ourselves to be so totally manipulated and as a result, to become sadly agents of oppression, blind, agents and I wish that it had been so.
 That we had more humility, more courage, more insight to expose the full horror of apartheid.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am sorry Madam Chair, what worries me is that this cycles of inhumanity throughout history have demonstrated themselves, throughout history following the holocaust Israel is the oppressor of the Palestinians, there has been all these cycles and I am really worried about what our future holds in this country.
 You mentioned in your response to my question that if White people did not allow themselves to be manipulated perhaps we wouldn't be where we are, and I am concerned just about that.  It is not so much about White people being manipulated, but about a group of people being manipulated by those who hold power.
 And I am just wondering what factors contributed to this manipulation of White people because I really believe that it could happen with any group of people depending with who is in power, what do you think were the factors that contributed to the manipulation of White people?

UNKNOWN: I think that fear is a very powerful factor.  And because of fear we tend to deny the reality that is absolutely transparent to someone who is viewing it without the fear.
 And I think that the whole process of denial is a very powerful one and accounts for what someone delightfully described  to me the other day as the ostrich mentality, when you put your head in the sand and the person added, of course the trouble is you leave your rump exposed.
 And I think that because of fear we have largely put our head in the sand and what concerns me and I don't know if this is underlying your question, but what concerns me today is that you can't find anyone who ever supported apartheid and there is so much denial going on that I think that those people who have never actually seen through it, could also be manipulated again.
 And to that extent I utterly share your concern and think you've raised a very important point.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.  Just a small comment that in talking about cycles, we have our own here in this country, because we had the Anglo Boer War and so we had another cycle as well after the Anglo Boer War when a new government took hold of power.

UNKNOWN: Yes, absolutely.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Revd Freeth for your presentation today, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn for lunch, we would ask people please to be seated in the hall by 2.30, we would like to reconvene at 2.30 and please ask people to be seated by then, thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH UNTIL 2.30: .