Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR SHANGWENI: At that stage Msizi Hlope, what other duties were you doing
at Djamile's place.

MR HLOPE: No English translation.

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct.

MR HLOPE: My other duties were to assist my father doing the repairs at Mr Djamile's house and also to accompany his wife to Durban station to fetch more muti and also to assist in carrying some of the medicine to Ulundi where he's got a chemist.  And also to collect names of people who were not supporting stay-away's, people who wanted to go to work and he would arrange security for those people to be escorted to work.
	Again I would accompany soldiers from Pietermaritzburg to collect or to fetch buses from the depot and we were escorting the buses so that people don't throw stones on the buses.  And then again also to make sure that Mr Djamile was safe and I was paid for being a security, I was paid about    R600-00.

MR SHANGWENI: Are you saying you were a special constable for Mr Djamile, is that correct?

MR HLOPE: That's correct.

MR SHANGWENI: According to my knowledge, for one to become a special constable an appointment certificate had to be issued, where you at any stage issued with an appointment certificate?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I was given an identity card.

MR SHANGWENI: When was that year?

MR HLOPE: In 1989.

MR SHANGWENI: Who arranged it for you?

MR HLOPE: Mr Djamile.

ADV DE JAGER: But was that the ordinary identity card, your identity book or was it a special document?

MR HLOPE: The usual one which is used by the ZP Police, Special Constable.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was a document for a Special Constable, it wasn't an ordinary document issued to all the people carrying identity books?

MR HLOPE: It was especially for the ZP's.

CHAIRPERSON: Who, where did you get this or who issued it to you?

MR HLOPE: Mr Djamile.

CHAIRPERSON: He may have handed it to you ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Which person appointed you as a Special Constable?

MR HLOPE: I was not trained, I never went to any training, I just went to a ...(inaudible) patrol and I learnt to shoot and Mr Djamile was there and then he took photographs of me and the gun was issued and given to me which was a 9mm, that was the gun I was using.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know who did it, who issued the gun and who issued this document?  ...(inaudible) Government authority?

MR HLOPE: It is Mr Djamile.

CHAIRPERSON: Signed by him?

MR HLOPE: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it signed by?

MR HLOPE: I don't know who signed it but all I know is that Mr Djamile gave me this ID, ZP ID.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an official document that you were aware of?

MR HLOPE: Yes, it was an official document and I would go to court carrying my ID and my gun but what I've noticed - the name which was on that appointment ZP letter was different.

MR SHANGWENI: Mr Chairperson, there's no official document that was submitted to us and the applicant will lead evidence to the effect that his appointment certificate was confiscated prior to his arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: Msizi Hlope, whose name appeared on the appointment certificate?

MR HLOPE: The name said Tembiso Mkhize but the photograph was my photograph.

MR SHANGWENI: Didn't you question Mr Djamile why he used a different name?

MR HLOPE: I didn't question him because I knew that he did this for me to use other names, not my real names because he was scared.

MR SHANGWENI: What happened to that appointment certificate?

MR HLOPE: Mr Djamile's wife took it and the gun and the uniform.

ADV SANDI: In your knowledge Mr Hlope, did Mr Djamile make the same sort of arrangement for people who were doing the same operations as you, arranging these appointment certificates?

MR HLOPE: I can't be very much sure on that one but I know for a fact that there were others who had these ID's and who didn't go to training and who left school in standard two.  They were protecting IFP leaders.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it in fact necessary to protect them?

MR HLOPE: Are you asking me if it was necessary?

ADV DE JAGER: In your mind, did you think it was necessary to protect them?

MR HLOPE: Yes, because they were being attacked.

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  With your permission Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the applicant to state other incidents he was involved in but if it suffices to the Commission that evidence in the affidavit is sufficient, then I will not lead him in that regard.  That is, other incidents as mentioned in his affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: You must consider what is relevant in the interest of your client and the decision must be made by you.

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Hlope, are there other incidents that you were involved in whilst working with Mr Djamile that you can remember?

MR HLOPE: Yes, there are.

MR SHANGWENI: Could you disclose them to the Commission please.

MR HLOPE: Another incident is the one concerning Mrs Pearl Shabalala from Claremont.  In 1988 my father called me and he told that Mr Djamile needed to see me.  When I arrived at Mr Djamile I found a car parked outside - a Cressida - and Mr Djamile was there.  There were people inside the car and the doors were opened and as I arrived there Mr Djamile told me to go with the boys to show them Mrs Shabalala's house.
	These boys who were inside the car were busy polishing their guns.  It was Dalikolo, Socha and I didn't know these other three people.  We went, we took a ...(inaudible) drive.  When we arrived next to a garage the other four people went out, in fact they got out of the car and they started walking.  	Me and Maslanduna were the only two left inside the house.  I saw them walking very slow.  We drove next to a school, we parked there and Maslanduna told me not to lock the doors and I saw Mrs Shabalala's car leaving the bottle store and these other boys whom we dropped they started shooting.  They shot at her car and she accelerated and then they came running and one of them didn't come back to get inside the car.  
	We drove back to Claremont.  We drove passed the graveyard and we passed a bottle store belonging to Mr Nklega and then Maslanduna drove back to try and find this other guy whom we didn't take because he didn't know Claremont very well.  
	When we arrived at Mr Djamile's house he took us behind the house and he asked us as to how we went and this other guy told him that - we missed her.  He got angry, he shouted who we missed her, how can we do that and then he told me to go home and sleep.
	The next day Mr Djamile called me again and he sent me to Mrs Shabalala's bottle store and check the damage we caused at her car but I was scared to go alone, I asked a friend of mine whom I didn't tell him as to why.  I went there and I looked at Mrs Shabalala's car,  I checked on it and I went to Mr Djamile to report.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt but the applicant as you appreciate, is not applying for amnesty in respect of those incidents because he was acquitted at his trial.  He was charged with this but acquitted and I think with respect, all this evidence is set out merely to ...(no sound) respect of the matter he wasn't charged but admits having committed the offences so I don't know whether all this is relevant.  It's set out in the affidavit and I certainly don't challenge it.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) been confirmed at the beginning, so it's evidence before us in any event.

MR BRINK: Yes, that is the point Mr Chairman.