Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MARAIS: So he told you that Kondile wanted to smuggle information, to leak information and you must be sure that it doesn't happen.  That's strange because Mr du Plessis said that he never mentioned that to you, he just gave you a general instruction that you had to guard this person, see that nothing goes in, nothing goes out.  He didn't give a reason for that.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Mr du Plessis did give a reason.  He informed me.

MR MARAIS: So he must have made a mistake in his evidence.  But you are sure now that he had provided you with a reason.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: He did give me a reason.

MR MARAIS: So if you are sure he perhaps is making a mistake.  Both can't be correct because it's two different things.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just come over to the - you've got a very limited role to play in this matter here, I want you to understand that.  I wish you'd confine yourself to matters pertaining to your client please ...(intervention)

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There must be some limit to these proceedings as well, we can't carry on indefinitely you see.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman while you touch on the subject, may I be allowed to make a short submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Please not, I want this witness to finish.

MR MARAIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did Mr Danster ever talk to Mr Kondile while he was guarding him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: As far as I can remember yes.

MR MARAIS: There were no problems between Danster and Kondile to talk about social matters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No not as far as I can remember.

MR MARAIS: And between you and Mr Kondile? You spoke freely to one another.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes as far as I can remember.

MR MARAIS: And you did?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes we did.

MR MARAIS: Did Kondile make any attempt as far as you could gather that he was trying to leak some information or smuggle information from single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Not that I know of.

MR MARAIS: And if I remember correctly your task was specifically to prevent that that should happen.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR MARAIS: So your attention would have been focused on such possible attempts.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's possible yes.

MR MARAIS: And you're telling the Commission that you can't remember that he tried to do something like that.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't remember.

MR MARAIS: And I'm putting it to you that it is improbable that you would not have tried.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: He would not have done it openly so that you could see it because then it would not be smuggling.

MR MARAIS: I'll concede to that.

MR MARAIS: You and Mr Danster's relationship at that stage, were there any problems?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MARAIS: Were you only colleagues or were you also friends on a social level?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We were colleagues.

MR MARAIS: Did anything happen afterwards between the two of you that would have caused friction?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Nothing.

MR MARAIS: You can't think why Mr Danster is saying these things about you in his statement?  Do you know what is entailed in Mr Danster's statement?  You don't know why he's saying these things about you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I don't know.

MR MARAIS: No further questions your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) would you rather do that when you're re-examining your witness?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I've - you stopped me Mr Chairman, I wanted to make a submission in regard to this cross-examination and this witness but that's now over and done with.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I've got no re-examination your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: No well I, you may yes because I'm going to ask Mr Jansen if he has questions.

MR MARAIS: I'm sorry no.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen do you have any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Yes thank you Mr Chairman, I do.  Mr Raath you would agree that your application is more than cryptic.  You just confirm in total your co-applicant's applications.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Why did you not make an attempt to spontaneously give your own version?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I've given my evidence for the purposes for which I am here and that is to come and tell the truth.

MR JANSEN: But my submission to the Committee is that I have the impression that you all follow the one version till the end till you see which way things are going and so that you based all your applications on this one standpoint.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I've just told you about what I know.

MR JANSEN: I just want to get certainty.  Did you yourself compile this statement, type it?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No it was done by my legal representatives.

MR JANSEN: And did they ask information from you, you conveyed the information to them and they worded it and formulated it?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR JANSEN: Now the one thing I still find absent in all your evidence is that the detailed evidence regarding the interrogation about these bomb attacks, do you know whether he was interrogated about bomb attacks?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: From my side I can't remember.  I can't, whether I've asked him anything about bomb attacks.  I was concentrating on the photo album and about identifications.

MR JANSEN: What was your specific function?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I worked directly under du Plessis in black affairs.

MR JANSEN: You also know what Mr Coetzee's version is regarding the Audi 80 which was stolen?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I've heard about that.

MR JANSEN: You deny any knowledge of that incident?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I don't know anything about that.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee also said that amongst others, after the Audi had been stolen, you said that you wanted the tyres, you've read that version of his?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes but I don't know about that.

MR JANSEN: Yes you're saying Mr Coetzee is lying.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I don't know about the Audi, I don't know about the tyres.

MR JANSEN: Either Mr Coetzee is lying or he is confusing you with someone else?  One of the two, that must be your submission.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I wouldn't know where he got this from.

MR JANSEN: Okay, could I just ask Mr Raath, I read somewhere here that you owned a Passat at the time, is that correct?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR JANSEN: Now I don't know but would an Audi tyre fit a Passat tyre?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Not necessarily.

MR JANSEN: You wouldn't know, thank you.
	One other point, you also know Mr Coetzee's version regarding what happened at Komatipoort.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR JANSEN: I don't want to explain it to you in detail because I know you've listened to your colleagues reacting to certain parts which have been submitted to them.  There is not any specific part of Mr Coetzee's evidence on which you want to comment apart from denying it?

UNKNOWN: That's not a reasonable question, if my learned friend wants evidence which he wants to put to the witness he must do so.  He can't make a sweeping statement to say what do you disagree with Dirk Coetzee's evidence Mr Chairman.  This witness ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) he wants to comment on. Is there anything about Coetzee's evidence which you wish to comment?  Is that what you're trying to get?

MR JANSEN: Yes I accept Mr Chairman that it's not practice to place it in such a wide term but maybe I should just place the main events, the main moment's of Coetzee's version to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do that please.

MR JANSEN: Right If you just want to comment on the following statements
	Coetzee says that he did visit Jeffrey's Bay police station where he saw the detainee Mr Kondile.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I did not see Coetzee there.