Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-19

PULENG ZWANE: I started establishing where is Mr Dube and then I found out that he is now a Captain in the SANDF and then I phoned him, I set up a meeting with him, and then we met.
	I discussed with him the Dhlomo case and then to my surprise, he never resisted anything, he never lied to me.  He never gave me any struggle whatsoever.  In fact he is one of the people who gave me an absolute co-operation, insofar as my investigation was concerned.  So he told me that yes, he took part in the killing of Dhlomo, he was a commander of a particular Unit in Soweto and that he issued orders for Dhlomo to be killed, because Dhlomo was an informer.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you who actually killed Dhlomo?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes, I think he told me that one of the cell commanders whom Dhlomo was a member, pulled the trigger.

MR MAPOMA: Now, so what advice did you give to him, if at all there is anything?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes, I told him that the best thing he can do is to start applying for amnesty, because he will understand that the Dhlomo case is one of the difficult cases.  It was commonly believed that Dhlomo was killed by the Security Branch, so they could have sat back and said we don't apply and no one would ever know that they took part in the Dhlomo killing.
	They had an option of killing him because I was the only one who knew by then that they killed Dhlomo.  If they had killed me, no person would have known that, but they were too honest and I even felt that I owed them something, then I advised them to apply for amnesty.

MR MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that they applied for amnesty because of your persuasion to them that they so do?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes, I advised them to apply for amnesty.  I also assisted them to draft a statement and then I took their application to Cape Town for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that they could have killed you as you were the only person who knew, that is not quite correct is it?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not correct, is it?  The Security Police had told you that Dube was the person who killed Dhlomo?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes.  No, the point is Dhlomo was killed in 1988 and then since then, no-one came forward and say we have information about the death of Dhlomo.
	Even the Security Branch guys who knew.  So what I am saying is that these guys, the Dube group could have done something to surprise me, but they did not.  They were willing to cooperate with me.

MR MAPOMA: Did you put to him the information that you had received, that he was an police informer, that is Dube and what was his response?

PULENG ZWANE: I approached Dube about the information.  I asked him, Dube, these guys are telling me that you also worked for them and the response of Dube was, I infiltrated them.  I was infiltrating them as an MK cadre, so I didn't bother about whether was that true or not.  I was only interested in why was Dhlomo killed.
	As to whether he was an informer or not, I was not interested.  I was interested in why did he kill Dhlomo.  Though he gave information to me that he was infiltrating them on behalf of MK.

MR MAPOMA: Now when he said to you that they killed Dhlomo because he was a police spy, did you take any steps to investigate that claim?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes, I took some steps.  I wanted to establish two things.  One, was Sicelo Dhlomo an informer or not, and then two, was Dube a police informer before the death - let me be clear, I wanted to establish whether Dube infiltrated the police before the death of Dhlomo or after the death of Dhlomo.  So those were the two things I was trying to establish.
	Inasfar as the Dhlomo issue was concerned, I did some minor investigation.  I was trying to link, there was a particular woman, a white woman, who worked for JODAC, Johannesburg Democratic Action Committee, and who also took part in the ECC, and End Conscription Campaign and who also had some links with the DPSC, Detainees Parents' Support Committee.
	I had information that that woman was an agent of the police.  Her name was Joy.  I wanted to establish a relationship between Joy and Dhlomo and then when I was just about to meet Joy, I then resigned from the TRC.  I could not establish the whole picture as to whether was there any relationship between Joy and Dhlomo, given the fact that Dhlomo had some working with the DPSC, so it was Joy, and Joy was a police agent.
	All that happened at the same year, at the same period.  Inasfar as Dhlomo issue was concerned, I could not establish fully, whether was he a police informer or not, but I had some leads to follow.  The second issue ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any point in us hearing evidence, naming people when the witness says he had some leads, but he didn't establish, he doesn't know the truth of these allegations?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, I was just leading the witness for the sake of giving as broad a picture as possible, to whoever may be interested in this testimony regarding this matter.
	I think to a certain extent that may be relevant, because during ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you notified the persons named?

MR MAPOMA: No, I have not.  In fact I have not pushed the witness into naming the person, the person's name, the person concerned as such.
	Chairperson, that ends the evidence I wanted to lead.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Zwane, while you were conducting your investigations for the TRC, did you keep files and documents, diaries?  While you were doing investigations, did you keep records of your investigations, what you did on a day by day basis?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes, any normal Investigator does that.

MR RICHARD: Is there an investigation file recording verbatim what you said to this Committee this morning, yes or no?

INTERPRETER: Can you repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: Is there anywhere in existence a file which records in writing, what you have told this Committee this morning?

PULENG ZWANE: The only thing I remember well, was the report I gave to the TRC in October 1997, which explains clearly the progress of my investigation in the Dhlomo case and other surrounding issues pertaining to the case.
	I think I still have a copy of that report which I gave to the TRC.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, can I just interrupt you for a minute, there is something that I just want to raise with the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that report available Mr Mapoma, is that information that should have been made available to us as a result of investigations?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, not with me at this moment.   Perhaps if I consult with him, I will find out.

CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the Act when an application is made, we carry out investigations and then we decide whether to have a hearing.
	If there is such information available for the Committee, obtained by Investigators, I think we should have known about it.  Should we take a short adjournment, and you can discover?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PULENG ZWANE: (still under oath)

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, during the short adjournment, I managed to receive a copy of the report which Mr Zwane had prepared.  I have made copies of this report available to all parties involved.  Thank you.
	I would ask your direction Chairperson, whether do we refer to it at all?

CHAIRPERSON: I think ...(microphone not on), Exhibit D.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue with your questioning, there was one item which Mr Mapoma has told me, but I think it ought to be on record from the witness.
	Have you got a copy of the statement?  Right at the end of the statement you say John Dube and some members of his Unit, made a statement to this effect, a copy is attached.
	Will you look at the statement that I am showing you, it is the statement on page 10 of the bundle, is that the statement that you referred to in your statement?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes, it is true.