Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I was a Captain.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I asked the question.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh did you, I'm sorry.
	In terms of, let's call it the unofficial hierarchy within the CCB, would you be of superior rank to Staal Burger?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you would have had to have accepted orders from him?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would you have been of superior rank to Botha, van Zyl and Maree?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you were in charge of finances for Region 6, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz.
	Did you have any administrative experience?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, no official civil course experience, but in the Defence Force there were courses which addresses personnel and financial issues and I had experience from that, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now maybe you can also just fill in the gap in respect of what Region 9 was.

WOUTER J BASSON: I think it was testified yesterday that it was the region which was referred to as the social region.  I'm not hundred percent sure of the objective of this region.  The persons involved are unknown to me, but I want to assume that they did have an executive capacity, it was purely, let us say a structure which had to gather information, sociological capacities had to be ascertained.  That's all I can say about Region 9.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you have any idea why Project Apie was their project?

WOUTER J BASSON: Once again I infer that in view of their capacities, that would have been the region who initiated the project, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you saying that they would have been involved in psychological warfare?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's very possible, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And was Region 10 Finances, or what was its purpose?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not aware of a Region 10.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You never had any dealings with ...

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't think there was a Region 10, I think it only went up to Region 9.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Christoffel Nel also testified that Father Michael Lapsley was on Region 7's target list, is that correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: I not aware of it, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that a "I'm answering a question", or is that a "I don't know"?

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't know.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  You are aware that Father Lapsley was severely injured by a parcel bomb, in Zimbabwe?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think I became aware of it, I don't know when.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well wasn't this at the time that you were the Co-ordinator of Region 7?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible, it's possible, I'm not sure.  When did this happen?

MR KAHANOVITZ: 28th - the bomb exploded on the 29th of April 1990, but ...(intervention)

WOUTER J BASSON: 1990?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but that must be qualified by saying that Father Lapsley does not know how long the bomb was waiting for him because he'd not collected his post for a considerable period of time.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'll allow these questions, although they concern external projects, but I want to say that I have no knowledge about any project or any gathering of information regarding this project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But do you have any reason to dispute what Chris Nel says to the effect that he was indeed a potential target for Region 7, in Zimbabwe?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, Chris Nel was aware of many more things than I am and if he says that, I think we could accept it as such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you - the CCB certainly would have had access to the kind of specialist knowledge that was required to produce parcel bombs?

WOUTER J BASSON: I believe it was a possibility, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now I assume as in the case of South Africa, you also had a list of targets for Zimbabwe.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I didn't have a target list for Zimbabwe, no.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When you say you were the Co-ordinator of Region 7, Zimbabwe, what kind of work did that involve?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, with my appointment at the CCB, I was asked to handle people inside Zimbabwe and that is what I did.  I was not involved in any direct orders regarding such persons.  The giving of orders in terms of Region 7 was done under a project by the name of Deplore, it was one specific person who had contact with, or who had an infrastructure within Zimbabwe and also in Zambia.  There are entries in my diary referring to the person, his name is Richard, and he was linked to Project Deplore.  That is the extent to which I was involved in Region 7.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your Zimbabwean operatives, if they needed guns or ammunition, wasn't it your job to get it to them as the Co-ordinator, to arrange it for them?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, that's an external project and it's difficult for me not to give my co-operation because I want to answer question, but at which stage must I say I am not going to answer any further questions?

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's your choice.

WOUTER J BASSON: But do you understand that I want to give my co-operation but I can only go up to a certain point and ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: I hear what you're saying, as Mr van Zyl said so often in his testimony, but if you want to ask you lawyer how to assist you in the predicament in which you find yourself, I have no objection.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it's easy for me to say that I refuse to answer questions.  You can refer to my diary, I'm aware of the entries in my diary, they refer to an external project and that is as far as I'm prepared to go.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, if the proceedings are being recorded I'd like to ask Mr Kahanovitz, because his little remarks in-between relating to my client might create certain perceptions on the record.  What was he suggesting when he said "as we heard what Mr van Zyl often remarked in his evidence"?

MR KAHANOVITZ: That was a poor attempt on my part at you.  I put a number of questions to him and he kept on answering saying "Ek hoor wat jy se".

MR MARTINI: Oh, I thought it was a - that's the point, I thought it was a suggestion that Mr van Zyl was refusing to answer questions relating to external operations.  That's not the case, I take it?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now in your diary also there are a number of scrambler codes, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: ...(no audible reply)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now - sorry, you just nodded your head, that's a yes?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were Region 6 people using scramblers?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, they had one scrambler, that's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Telephone scramblers?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct, it's an instrument placed over the telephone mouthpiece and ear-piece and with a certain code somebody else who also has the same instrument can listen to a conversation and this conversation then cannot be tapped.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  And I infer from your diary, the way you were working you were changing those scramblers from time to time?

WOUTER J BASSON: On a monthly basis, that is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  And it also appears from your diary that you had access to Armscor to get scrambling equipment.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, not contact with Armscor, no.

MR KAHANOVITZ: There's an entry
"Obtain crypto fax - Armscor"
I'll show the entry later if you can't remember it.

WOUTER J BASSON: Very well.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now just tell us in general terms, your understanding about how one went about getting a budget approved for a target, for the elimination of a target.