Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Correct, the idea was that the body would be found and that it would be identified by means of identification by the family or by fingerprints.

MR WILLS: Now the evidence will be to the effect that when the deceased left home that day she had a handbag with her which contained her identity document.  Do you know what became of that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I don't know Chairperson, I cannot even recall.

MR WILLS: Did you ever see her handbag?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall that I saw the handbag.  It is possible that she did have the handbag.

MR WILLS: She also had a ring on, are you aware of that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall, Chairperson, it's possible.

MR WILLS: Now assuming as we will argue is the case, that it isn't common cause, that the body that was found is in fact her body, that body didn't have any identification marks, it didn't have the ring, there was no property found with the body. You see it seems to me, also it seems to me the body was dumped in such a way that it took a long time to find.  That the very opposite was done, in that the body was dumped in such a way that it wouldn't be identified and would take a long time to be found.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot comment on exactly where the body was found.  I think Capt du Preez will be able to testify where they had dumped the body and if one should look at where the body was dumped and to which Mr Wills to where it was found, that it could be the same place, consequently I cannot comment.

MR WILLS: What did Capt du Preez say to you when he returned before sunrise?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: He said that he had left the body in Bambayi, in the vicinity of Bambayi.

MR WILLS: Was that all he said?  He didn't give you more specifics, beside the road or?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was not necessary to supply me with detail, it was sufficient, his answer was sufficient.

MR WILLS: Now, I understand that at the time you were operating in this manner, you were operating under Gen Steyn.  Is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now did you report this incident to him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why not?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I simply did not inform him.  He was not told.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that it would have been something necessary to put to him that somebody had died whilst under your custody and we know that Gen Steyn was part of your group, why didn't you report to him?  It would have been important for him to know.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Well I did not, Chairperson, I don't know whether Col Taylor did.

MR WILLS: Were you trying to hide it from him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So you were trying to hide the fact that this woman had died, even from Gen Steyn?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's what I said, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: So that it would not have any consequences for us.

MR LAX: What "nadelige gevolge" would have followed, if he knew about it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Gen Steyn was our Commander and I did not know how he would react to it.

MR LAX: He didn't hand you in on all the other matters where he's a co-applicant.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, this was the very first incident and in the order of all the events, the Khubeka matter was the very first.  The others all followed.

MR LAX: But even so, did you think he'd hand you in the other ones?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, the circumstances which led to those were different as in this case.

MR LAX: So you'd worked with this man since the early 80's and yet you didn't know what his attitude might be?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: A little less than a year that I was working with him, Chairperson.

MR LAX: 85 or 86?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: 86.

MR LAX: Fair enough.

MR WILLS: There's evidence to the effect that a conflict arose in the midst of this atrocity in the sense, between yourselves, the Durban -  yourself, should I rather say, and the Vlakplaas unit in that you had given an order for Jimmy to return to the deceased's home after the deceased had died and that Coetzer didn't want this to happen and in  consequence he withdrew his unit.  Did that in fact occur?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, it did not happen.

MR WILLS: Did you give an order for Jimmy to go to the house of the deceased?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And your evidence is to the effect that that occurred?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.  Two days after each other.

MR WILLS: Now, your evidence is also to the effect that there was no conflict between you and the Vlakplaas-based policemen?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, none of the people who formed part of that operation.

MR WILLS: What did Jimmy report back after he had gone to the house, after the death of the deceased?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In both cases he reported back that the family reports that she had gone to her boys.

MR WILLS: So no suspicion was raised?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, there was nothing, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, may I just ask for a short adjournment to consult with my clients prior to closing my cross-examination?  I don't think I'm going to be much longer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Wills, we'll take a short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Please, I should have mentioned it earlier, if anybody wishes to remove their jackets, they may do so.  We're in Durban now and it's warm.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm indebted to you Mr Chairman, I suffer a bit.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: (cont)
	Thank you.  Just a couple of things, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Are you aware of the type of vehicle that was used to transport the body?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: But can you remember whether it was a panel van, or a sedan motor vehicle?  If you can't remember the make of the vehicle, whether it was a bakkie or truck?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall what type of vehicle it was.  I think we used three types of vehicles at that stage.  I had a Ford Sierra, there was an Isuzu bakkie and there was a panel van and there was a small Toyota, I cannot say which of the four was used.

MR WILLS: Do you know who drove the vehicle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was either Wasserman or du Preez.

MR WILLS: You didn't see obviously which one?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I didn't notice.

MR WILLS: Now was the body wrapped in anything whatsoever when it was taken out of the room and put into the vehicle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I could not see.

MR WILLS: Do you know if the body was clothed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I don't know Chairperson, I could not see.

CHAIRPERSON: If the body was not clothed, would you not have become aware of clothing that had to be dispensed with?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would have noticed it Chairperson.  When I left the room the last, she was clothed.

MR WILLS: Did you find any underwear lying around in the torture chamber?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There was no clothing that was found afterwards in that room, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Not a pair of panties?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.