Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Lotz, at the Motherwell crossing, did you wait there for a while before the kombi arrived on the scene?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: And you saw Mr Ras there, whom you knew well, he was a former Koevoet colleague of yours and Mr Nieuwoudt, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Snyman, Ras and Nieuwoudt, that is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: And the other man you didn't know?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you then suspect that this was some kind of an operation?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, I did, but I wasn't sure what it was about.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you ask what it was about and what they were doing at the crossing?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: You don't ask that kind of question.

ADV POTGIETER: You don't ask that kind of question?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Why not?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Because they were busy with some kind of an operation.  If it was necessary for me to know, then they would have told me what it was about.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you then begin to suspect that it could be something illegal?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I had no idea what it was about.

ADV POTGIETER: No, I know that you had no idea, but did you suspect that it could be something unlawful?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: It might just as well have been a lawful operation, I had no idea.

ADV POTGIETER: So, you associated yourself with the fact that it could possibly be an illegal action?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And you decided you weren't going to ask any questions?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: What were they busy discussing at the scene?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Nothing out of the ordinary.  I spoke to Nieuwoudt, he thanked me for the vehicle and I think I went to say hallo to Mr Ras, I hadn't seen him for quite a while.
	There was -  nothing else was discussed.

ADV POTGIETER: Where was Mr Ras stationed at that time?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: At Vlakplaas.

ADV POTGIETER: As far as your knowledge was, you were aware of that?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I am not sure whether I knew it at that stage, maybe I did know that he was at Vlakplaas, but I am not sure.  I hadn't seen him since our time in Ovamboland.

ADV POTGIETER: So you didn't ask him where he was stationed at that particular time?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I might have.  I am not sure.

ADV POTGIETER: This explosive device was activated at some stage, apparently not during the time that you were actually driving the car.  Did you see that?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Was it possible that the explosive device was activated whilst you were on the scene?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: It is possible.

ADV POTGIETER: Would it have been possible for them to do it without you being aware of it?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I don't know how they did it, but I suppose they could have done it in that way.

ADV POTGIETER: Was Ras an explosives expert or don't you know?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I think he is.  I think he is.

ADV POTGIETER: Were you in his company all the time?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I might have been.  I went to Nieuwoudt, I went to him.

ADV POTGIETER: So you did not get the impression that they were busy activating an explosive device?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you a member of the Security Branch at that stage?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, I was.

ADV DE JAGER: In the Security Branch, was there discussion of members who were disloyal?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Not that I know of.

ADV DE JAGER: Had you ever heard about double agents and people who worked with you whom you did not trust?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: In the course of your duties, did you  normally get instructions from Mr Nieuwoudt?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: From Mr Roelofse.

CHAIRPERSON: But on that day, regarding this particular operation, you got instructions from Mr Nieuwoudt and not from Mr Roelofse?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that surprise you?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Often they would come and ask you help me with this or that, that was not strange.  Some times members from one section would assist members from another section.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't even have to approach Mr Roelofse first?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And his men were not available during that time, were they on leave or something?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Which people are these?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nieuwoudt's team, the people that he normally worked with?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I don't know, I don't where they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to re-examine Mr Booyens?

ADV BOOYENS: Just one aspect.  You were asked about disloyalty.  The deceased and you, did you work in the same section?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Sergeant Faku worked with me, Mapipa worked with me.   Sehati was an ascari, he worked now and then.  Mgoduka, I did not know.

ADV BOOYENS: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I have got no further questions and I have got no further witnesses that I can assist the Committee with at this stage unfortunately, Mr Chairman.

ADV BOOYENS: .

CHAIRPERSON: I notice it is just about to be quarter to four.  Did you say that you don't have the next witness ready yet?

ADV BOOYENS: The only further witness I intend calling for my side, is Nieuwoudt and he is not available today as I indicated earlier on to you, so unless you want one of my colleagues to assist you Mr Chairman, I can't any further unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  Well, we will adjourn now, it is about quarter to four, we will adjourn now, but I think we should stress the point that we work on the basis that each of the applicants are ready, or has since been ready, for some time to proceed with their applications and I think that we simply have just to proceed with whoever is available tomorrow and if none of the applicants is willing to get into the witness box, we would just have to direct that so and so should come and should not proceed.
	I would suggest that you sort this out amongst yourselves to avoid that kind of situation.  Before everybody leaves, I assume that they will leave the earphones on their chairs, so that they can be taken back to be serviced tonight.  We will adjourn until tomorrow half past nine.
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