Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR LAX: Now, in any event, within a few days after this incident you had had a meeting of community people, the issue had been discussed, some had expressed their shock, but at the end of the day you were satisfied on the evidence presented at that meeting that this was a correct action.  Have I understood you correctly?  Just say yes or no, not a long story, please.

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I would say so insofar as the evidence that was brought before us that that had to be done.

MR LAX: Well then why did you need convincing six months later when you finally saw these chaps again?  Just explain that to us.

STANLEY GQIBA: I had to meet the people who were responsible for that to satisfy myself.  I wanted an explanation from them how they did it and all the steps right up to the ultimate day where these people were shot.  That's the information I was trying to get.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.  Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that you knew Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, or did you say you did not know him?

STANLEY GQIBA: I said I knew him.  I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew him to be what, within the SDU structures?

STANLEY GQIBA: I did not know his position within the SDU's.  Bonga is the one who can know better.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity did you know him?

STANLEY GQIBA: He was a member of the youth league, a card carrying member of ANC youth league.  I knew that he used to received certain instructions from the SDU's, but they were under our control insofar as politics is concerned, but yet they had their commanders, the SDU's.  I therefore cannot say what his role was.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi came to see you at the night club on the 15th of August 1993, and told you about the fact that they had captured the enemies of the organisation, in what capacity did you think they were telling you about their capture?

STANLEY GQIBA: I thought that even 'though they did not meet me there but meet any other member of the committee they would have informed such a person the same thing or told the person the same thing as they did me, about trying to procure ammunition, and they just happened to tell me that they had captured informers.

CHAIRPERSON: So you thought that they are just telling you as an ordinary member of the ANC youth league?

STANLEY GQIBA: I think they told me about this knowing that I was a chairperson of the youth league, knowing also that I was working at the night club.  It could as well be that they met other members of the youth league before they ultimately came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it common practice for members of the SDU's to report to the youth league about their activities?

STANLEY GQIBA: It was not common practice, especially those, with reference to those that were not known to us.  We had meetings with people such as Bonga where Bonga for example would have to give us details of what happened on such a date and reasons therefor, and how that came about.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it therefore not peculiar that they should have access to you with regard to an information that involved the execution of the enemy of the organisation?  Did that not strike you as being peculiar, and not being accord with the common practice, that you as chairperson of the youth league, was well conversant with?

STANLEY GQIBA: No, I was not familiar with this.  What I know is that I had thought that they were doing what they were doing because they were desperately seeking ammunition, and because they were desperate they were trying to secure those ammunition, or that ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any attempt to find out if the capture had been done by them in their capacity as SDU members?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I tried to establish and I learned that they captured these people themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say themselves, in their capacity as SDU members, was my enquiry.  Did they specifically say that?

STANLEY GQIBA: I know them to be members of the SDU.  I knew them at the time that they were members of the SDU, so that I was sure they were members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: You simply assumed that the capture had been  done in accordance with their association with their SDU structure?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions put to Mr Gqiba by the members of the Committee, ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: I have no re-examination Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I notice that the time is now quarter past five and we are now going to reap the wrath of correctional services for not having stopped timeously.  We have repeatedly been requested to stop at 4 o'clock for logistical reasons.  May I on behalf of the Panel apologise for having transgressed this important rule, they know why it has been placed by the members of correctional services, and state that they should please just draw to our attention once we go over 4 o'clock.  We actually find ourselves not looking at our watches and being so keen to conclude with the evidence of Mr Gqiba that by the time we did now it was well after five o'clock.  Our apologies again.  The time being 5:15 we will adjourn this hearing until tomorrow morning at 09:30.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS