Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

UNKNOWN: I will not dispute that.  I would accept that because I am a person, I am liable to mistakes, but under normal circumstances I would issue a gun and take it back again.  I am a person, I am liable to err.  If I've given a gun not under personal issue, I should take it back.

ADV MEMANI: May I proceed My Lord?  Now my instructions are that Mr Ngo was issued with a firearm by Unit 19 and that he was always in possession of that firearm throughout his service at Mamelodi?

UNKNOWN: I do not know that, I discovered late when they wanted to find out as to whether didn't he tell you that.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that Mr Ngo was involved in a shooting incident here in the Free State during 1988, he was in possession of that firearm which was issued by Unit 19 at the time?

UNKNOWN: I learnt of that late, because when he arrived he said that he did not have a gun, that is why I issued a gun in the barracks.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after his arrival did you issue the gun?

UNKNOWN: When he arrived there, I found out that he does not have a gun which was under personal issue, then I issued him a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: That was issued on the 19th of April 1988 and he had been with you at least since August 1987?  Is that so?

UNKNOWN: I would take it like that as it has been seen on the records.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Khoja, he says that that explains why the fact that the firearm was issued by Unit 19, explains why there is no entry about you inspecting that firearm, because it was not within your domain, it was not part of your arsenal?

UNKNOWN: I tell you that when he arrived at the barracks, I found out that he does not have a gun under personal issue, then I discovered that it was necessary that I should give him a gun from the barracks.
	As to whether he came with a (indistinct) to me, I do not know that.

ADV MEMANI: You see, Mr Khoja, Mr Ngo instructs me that the firearm which you issued, the 9mm firearm which you issued with eight bullets, was issued for him specifically because he was going to be involved in an operation which involved the shooting of the unknown security guard at Pahama.

UNKNOWN: There is nothing like that.

ADV MEMANI: And he will say that, I beg your pardon, he has spoken already, my instructions are that the reason why this firearm was not released was not returned in the occurrence book, was that it had been used unlawfully.

UNKNOWN: That is not correct.

ADV MEMANI: And in one of the later entries, there is an entry where one of the Officers, policemen complained of a lost firearm.

UNKNOWN: Yes, guns were lost which we issued other policemen.  The guns which did not belong to the barracks, some of them.  If it was a gun belonging to the barracks, I would report that, but if it was a gun from outside, I would not.
	I remember one incident where one person lost a gun from the barracks, I recorded that gun.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Ngo instructs me that that was a false story.  The firearm which was purportedly lost was the same firearm which had been issued to him and some explanation had to be given for its whereabouts.

MR DU PLESSIS: My Lord, I am not sure what entry my learned friend is referring to now.  If he could just enlighten us in respect of that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Memani, just repeat that question first.  I didn't get the last part of it.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo will say that the entry where it is alleged that a policeman lost his firearm, was a false entry designed to cover up his use of the firearm and that the firearm which was being reported lost, was actually the firearm which had been issued to him.

UNKNOWN: That is not the correct version.  I would never one day do something like that, issue a gun which will not do under an  unlawful operation.  The gun which I issued to Mr Ngo, the gun which was lost, belonged to Mr Mgwoena, and Mr Mgwoena paid for that gun.
	It is a different issue altogether, it is not Mr Ngo's gun.

ADV MEMANI: Now, is it your evidence, is it still your evidence that Mr Ngo worked with you right up to his arrest?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is my evidence.

ADV MEMANI: Now, where did you get the occurrence book from?

UNKNOWN: At the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: Are you the person in charge of the occurrence book?  I mean the old occurrence books where they are stored?

UNKNOWN: No, I am not responsible, I am being transferred to Supportive.  Before I was responsible for that duty, but later changed to Supportive Services.

ADV MEMANI: Up to when were you responsible for these books?

UNKNOWN: It seems it is either 1992 or 1993, when I was transferred to the police station.

ADV MEMANI: And when did you see them for the first time this year, the occurrence books?

UNKNOWN: I see them for the first time today, because they were always here.

ADV MEMANI: Didn't you see them in September, Mr Khoja?  You were here in September, weren't you, didn't you see the books?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I saw them in September, but you have asked me about when did I see them for the first time this year, you didn't say last year.

ADV MEMANI: I see, I beg your pardon.  When did you see them for the first time in 1997?

UNKNOWN: I saw them the time when I received a message from the Commissioner's Office, when the lawyers demanded this document, that is Mr Britz.  That is then I went from my post and I went to the barracks to look for them.

ADV MEMANI: Did you find the books?  How many books did you find when you went there?

UNKNOWN: These are the books I found, these are the books I found on the same day, I came to Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Did the lawyers tell you which books to look for when you went to the barracks to look for these books?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct, they said they want occurrence books of particular years, and pocket books and relevant documents which relates to Ngo's services whilst he was under my supervision.

ADV MEMANI: And did you take - also they told you to look for the books relating to Ngo's employment whilst he was under your supervision?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  They said as from a particular year to a particular year where Ngo was working with me, the documents which relates to Ngo's duties, which shows that he was working under my supervision, that is the request they made to me.

ADV MEMANI: So that explains why you don't have books relating to him perhaps thereafter?  Pocket books which were issued to him before he worked with you, and pocket books which were issued to him after he worked with you?

UNKNOWN: Those are the documents I found in the barracks, yes.

ADV MEMANI: Let me put it like this, as you understood it, your instruction was to get pocket books which related to Ngo's employment under your supervision?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you were not supposed to bring pocket books relating to Ngo before he fell under your supervision?

UNKNOWN: I don't understand that question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Memani, I think the witness has said that he reacted in terms of his specific request to bring books from a particular period to a particular period, and he just complied with that request, and that is why he says he brought books relating to that specific period.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  May I take further instructions My Lord?
	 Now, Mr Khoja, are you aware that Mr Ngo was working primarily in Thembisa from May 1987 up to June 1987?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct, I knew.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly repeat the dates, Mr Memani?  From May 1987?

ADV MEMANI: To June 1987.

UNKNOWN: I remember that he worked around Thembisa and Kempton Park whilst he was still at Unit 19.  I am not able to put the dates correctly without documents.

ADV MEMANI: And that was not recorded in the occurrence book, wasn't it?