Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

ADV NTSEBEZA: I can't understand - there is something I would like you to repeat.  Do you say Rossouw - what did - he is going to say?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: He said he is going to kill me.

YASMINE SOOKA: [indistinct]

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, because it was my first experience to be arrested so I believed anything that the police said to me and also I didn't have a lawyer so I knew that anything could happen to me.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you stay six  months there?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, I did.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Just tell us about the day when you were in court - the day when you were in court.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Which day?

ADV NTSEBEZA: The day you was in court.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Do you mean the day before I did go to the court now?

ADV NTSEBEZA: Yes.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes before I went to court they showed me a photograph and they stated how Mabija fell through the window, they pushed him so they said if I want to go - to be released then I must work with them.  So I feared what was going to happen to me because I had no lawyer and I knew that I would stay for a long time in jail.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And then when you realised that you were alone you felt that you should sign?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, I did because I was in solitary confinement, even Lawrence I didn't see him, they just said Lawrence was arrested and he was released because he told the truth.

ADV NTSEBEZA: It is why Sipho said that really you could not just state what you said before without the pressure.  In other words whilst  you give evidence now, you used your statement because you knew that if you say something different you would be in for a high jump.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, it is because I was fearing for my life so I had to abide by their expectations  that is why I am apologising now to the people.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Just tell me how are you?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: I am 21 years old.

ADV NTSEBEZA: How old were you then?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: I was - I was 17 - I was 18 years when I was already in cells.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you meet Sipho already before this day?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: No I have never met them.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Is it the first time that you see them?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Ever since you met them after the court proceedings.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, and after these court proceedings I was told by Kampala that Van der Kolf wanted to see me but before they took me there I went to the intelligence of the ANC organisation and then this one said yes, they will come and assist me but they never came back to me.  Terror said they will come again to get some statement from me, but this never happened.

ADV NTSEBEZA: If what you say to the Commission can assist these people who are detained to be released would you like that to happen?  What you said today - do you expect it to assist the detained people to be released.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, I think so because you know the boers pressurised me to do what I didn't  intend to do.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Okay, except - just tell me what - what did the police do to you when you were arrested?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Mostly they used to send some boers to me and the boers would just slap me on the back and kick me.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So when they showed you this Mabija, what did they do?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: They took me and showed me through the window, - the commander of - that unfortunately what befell one of my comrades, when he was in Bloemfontein he was shot while I was back in Bophuthatswana to report to my Commanders.  Then the other one was arrested.

ADV NTSEBEZA: What would you like the Commission to do for you?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: I would like the Commission to really attend to the fact that the two people detained should be released so that they can forgive me - I would also like them to bring the police who did all this - should appear before all of  us  in public so that they can be seen by everyone.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you madam Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: Denzil - could we have some quite please.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I just go back to the incident - did I understand you correctly.  All that you saw was this grenade that  came past your feet, is that what you saw?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes it is so.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you see where the grenade was coming from?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: No I didn't -  I just saw it going past - it was rolling past and I just said grenade.

ADV POTGIETER: So would it be correct to say you don't know who threw that hand grenade.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: No, I don't.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thembinkosi  I want to thank you for coming here today,  I know that it is not easy and none of us here in this room can judge you because all of us don't know what we would have done if we had been in your shoes.   We know that the pressure upon you at the time by the police who were in charge of these matters, was very-very great and yes, the fear that you might end up like your comrade must have been very-very real for you.
We are very grateful that you've  come forward to give your evidence and we hope that through the evidence which you have given and Mr Smiles, that we are able to set in motion the freeing of two people who are innocent and who have already wasted two years of their lives in prison.  In a way, four lives have been destroyed because all four of you have been carrying around guilt and fears of terror -  your whole lives have been ruined and you are very-very young men indeed.
This is the sad price that our country has had to pay that so many young people's lives have been wasted.  We thank you for coming forward - thank you.