Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS QUNTA: Okay.  Now are you certain that you do not have any other source of income Mr Sibaya, I will just ask you for the last time?

MR SIBAYA: I do not Ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you receive any gifts from anybody on a regular basis?

MR SIBAYA: No I only, the only extra money I receive is my pension, the R400 I mentioned.

MS QUNTA: Do you own any property Mr Sibaya?

MR SIBAYA: My boss bought me a house.

MS QUNTA: Where was that house?

MR SIBAYA: In Kenilworth.

MS QUNTA: Can you give us the address, where is it in Kenilworth?

MR SIBAYA: Which address do you want, the address I stay in or the address that my boss ...(intervention)

MS QUNTA: No I want, you said your boss bought you a house and I want the address of that house.

MR SIBAYA: Hampstead Avenue, but I don't stay in that house.

MS QUNTA: Oh, in Kenilworth.  And who is the boss who bought it, which boss?

MR SIBAYA: Mr Bruzeck.

MS QUNTA: Mr who?

MR SIBAYA: (Interpreter says Brunzo - but sounds like Bruzeck) - he left.

MS QUNTA: Mr Brunzo?  Are you able to spell that?

MR SIBAYA: I think it's B-R-U-N-Z-E-L ja, his name is Gunther, he left for Germany.

MS QUNTA: What's his first name, Gunther?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: G-U-N-T-E-R, Gunter Brunzel?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  Now the house is in whose name, is it in his name or in your name?

MR SIBAYA: It is written in my child's name, Numbini.

MS QUNTA: In - okay.  And when was this bought?

MR SIBAYA: 1992.

MS QUNTA: Are you sure of that Mr Sibaya?

MR SIBAYA: What do you mean am I sure?

MS QUNTA: No of the date, I need

MR SIBAYA: Yes it was 1992.

MS QUNTA: Do you know who were the lawyers involved in that transaction?

MR SIBAYA: I only had to sign.  It is was Pam Golding were the estate agents.

MS QUNTA: Now Mr Sibaya I have here a printout from the Deeds Office.  Mr Chairman I have just received this during the break.  My apologies to my learned friend, I have had a Deeds search this morning and I wasn't sure what it was going to produce and I have only one copy here, and if I may with your permission refer to it and I will hand it down or make it copies.  If you will excuse me for a minute.
	Why did this person buy you a house, why did your boss buy you a house, Brunzel, when did you work for him?  Sorry my apologies Mr Chairman.  To the Interpreter perhaps you can start with when he worked for him.

MR SIBAYA: I worked for him for quite a long time.

MS QUNTA: When?

MR SIBAYA: 1971, between 1970 and 1971.

MS QUNTA: And you worked for him for that year?

MR SIBAYA: I stopped working for him around 1980.

MS QUNTA: Do you remember how much the house cost?

MR SIBAYA: I would not know unless I would look at my documents.

MS QUNTA: And do you recall the attorneys who acted in that matter?

MR SIBAYA: I don't remember them, however their names are written on the document.

JUDGE WILSON: You stopped working for Mr Brunzel in 1980 is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And he bought you a house in 1992, 12 years later, why was this?

MR SIBAYA: He has now left the country, he had said to me a long time ago that he would do something special for me one day.  He then looked for me at my place of work and gave me the gift.

ADV SANDI: This Mr, Mr Sibaya, can you tell us more about this Mr Brunzel, yes, what kind of work was he doing?

MR SIBAYA: He had factories.  He was a businessman.  I beg your pardon that was a mistake with the Interpreter.

MS QUNTA: Do you know how much the house cost?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya is it possible that you could make an error in saying that the house was in your daughter's name, is there a possibility that it may be in the other daughter's name, not Nombini?

MR SIBAYA: My other daughter?

MS QUNTA: Yes.

MR SIBAYA: I don't know, but if I looked up with my documents I would see in whose name it is.

MS QUNTA: I will tell you why I am asking that Mr Sibaya.  I am not suggesting that the house was not bought, but I did a search of the Registrar of Deeds in Cape Town which records all the properties in Cape Town and there is no one, there are five persons by the name of Sibaya and none of them have the name Nombini.  And none of them are in Kenilworth.  Now my apologies Mr Chairman I have just received these documents now, I have gone through them very quickly, but I can say that there is no one by the name of Nombini Sibaya.  And if you will recall the witness earlier did say that, his daughter's used his surname.
	Now I want to ask him, there is no evidence that there is any property owned by anyone with a surname of Sibaya which, with the first name Nombini.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe let's find out whether she has a married name, is she married?

MR SIBAYA: She is married.

MS QUNTA: What is her married name?

MR SIBAYA: Soyiswapa(?)

INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the surname please?

MR SIBAYA: Soyiswape.

MS QUNTA: I just want to make sure with the witness that none of the names that are on here, that I have here before me are any of his relations.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you will tell us what is the relevance of all this at some stage.

MS QUNTA: Yes I will Mr Chairman, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Up to now it sounds meaningless to us.

MR SIBAYA: I would also like to know what is going on.

MS QUNTA: (Laughs)  My apologies Mr Chairman.  Now the reason I am asking you this Mr Sibaya I am going to tell you now is that apart from you saying that you've got a house and I want to come back to that house because I think I would like the Committee to understand more about that house.  If the house was bought for you by your boss there is a question mark as to why it was put in your daughter's name, perhaps you have an explanation, but I don't know of many bosses who can purchase a house, but I will come back to that.  What I want to put to you and I want to explain to the Committee why I've raised this issue, it is that it has come to - I've had instructions that Mr Sibaya has entered into a deed of sale for the purchase of a property worth    250 000 for a property in Claremont, it is known as 52 Carlton Road, Claremont.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that to him.

MS QUNTA: In fact, ja, it's 250 000.  Now Mr Sibaya ...(intervention)

MR SIBAYA: Are you talking to me?

MS QUNTA: Ja, ja.  I am saying to you, you on your salary that you've given us and you've told us that you don't earn any extra, I want you first of all to confirm that you entered into this deed of sale.  I am going to hand it over to the Committee, I mean to you, and again it's my apologies for not having handed it up.  Perhaps before I can do that.  It has got your name, NY72 no.52 and it's got your ID number which is - you can have a look at your ID number there and indicate whether it's the correct one.

CHAIRPERSON: What document are you showing him?

MS QUNTA: It's a Deed of Sale Mr Chairman, for the record.

MR SIBAYA: I refuse to accept the house, it is not mine.

MS QUNTA: No I don't want to know about the house or anything I want to ask you, first of all is that your particulars, is that your ID number?

MR SIBAYA: Yes I even know what you are talking about.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  Now my second question to you is did you enter that Deed of Sale and is that your signature?

MR SIBAYA: Yes but I did not accept this.

CHAIRPERSON: No just answer the question, is that your signature?

MR SIBAYA: Yes that is my signature.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, put the next question.

MS QUNTA: And you've initialled on every page and signed on the last page.  May I have it back please.

MR SIBAYA: When they were making me sign I did not know what they were putting me into.  I realised later that they were putting me in trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Qunta what is the date?

MS QUNTA: I am trying to establish that now Mr Chairman, that's why I am silent, I am trying to - the witness signed on the 30th of December 1996 and the seller signed on the 31st of December 1996.