Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

MR LAX: So that is Ngonweni, Ngonweni?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, Ngonweni, the name of the place.

MR LAX: So he didn't specify a particular "moozie" or kraal or house or ...?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: He did make mention of the fact that we would get to a certain house and it will be Mthetwa's house, where we will find them.

MR LAX: Mthetwa's house you said?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, Mthetwa's house.

MR LAX: Did you know which house that was?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The way he gave us the direction and the description of the house, we knew.

MR LAX: Who was in control of your group?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: You mean in control, the leader of the Unit, of the group?

MR LAX: Of the group of people that went on this mission?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: It was myself.

CHAIRPERSON: How large was your group?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We were four of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who the other three were?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The first one was Linda Luthuli, the second one Zita Zulu, the third one was Ndumiso Sangweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Zulu.  Tell the Committee please what happened when you got to this group of people?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Please repeat your question Mr Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: What happened when you got to this group of people?

CHAIRPERSON: When you got to Mthetwa's house, what happened?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We got there and we stabbed them, and they died.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you personally armed with?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I had a knife and a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearm?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: 388.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use it at all?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I did not use the firearm, I only used my knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And can you tell the Committee how were the other persons armed?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, I can tell the Committee.  Zita Zulu had in his possession a butcher's knife and a knife, plus a firearm.  Ndumiso Sangweni had a spear this long, and a firearm.

MR LAX: Slow down a bit, we have to try and write this down and you are going a little bit fast.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Sangweni had a spear this long, how long, can you indicate the size of the spear?  He indicates approximately one meter.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: This spear was this long.

CHAIRPERSON: He indicates approximately one meter, a stabbing spear.  And Luthuli?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Luthuli had a knife plus a firearm.

MR LAX: Did I hear you correctly that Sangweni also had in addition to that spear, a firearm as well?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: When you got to Mthetwa's house, did you identify any specific persons that you wanted to attack?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, we identified those people we were in search of.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And who were these people that you wanted to attack?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Do you mean I should furnish you with their names?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Let me rather rephrase that, how is it that you identified these people as being persons that you wanted to attack?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We knew because the place was demarcated into two sections.  You will find one area or section belonging to the IFP and the other one from the road, be ANC.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You must go a little slower because everybody has to write down notes.  You said that the two areas were demarcated by a road?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is true.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And the two different areas that were demarcated by the road, the one area was occupied by members that belonged to the IFP party and the other section was occupied by members that belonged to the ANC party?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, I would like you to tell the Committee how is it that you identified the persons whom you attacked.  By what means did you identify the persons that you attacked?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: According to my knowledge, we knew perfectly well that as that was the ANC and the IFP area, we would leave our base and go and attack the ANC area.  It did not matter as to who would be IFP or ANC, as long as we find you in the ANC area, we will be attacking.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sorry, in other words, there were no specific persons you were going to attack, but you were going to attack people who were staying in the ANC stronghold?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: As I have already explained before, we were already told by Mr Buxusa that we should go to that place and that particular house, that is where we would find these people we were looking for.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But did you have the specific people you were supposed to attack, either by description or by names?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Some of them formed part of the group that attacked us.

MR LAX: You haven't really answered the question.  You see I am hearing you say two different things at the same time, and that is what we are trying to clear up.
	On the one hand you are saying you went to an area, it was demarcated by a road that on one side of the road, was ANC and on the other side of the road, was IFP.
	You would have attacked anybody you found there, regardless of who they were, as long as they were in the ANC area.  Then you add, well it had to be at Mthetwa's house, okay but the way it was put was, it doesn't matter who was there, if they were at that place, you were going to attack them.  That is the one thing that you are saying.
	On the other hand, you are also saying that you went to Mthetwa's house because you knew that the people who had been attacking you, would be at Mthetwa's house.  Can you explain this for us?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The people we were looking for, that we wanted to attack, we have been given information by Mr Buxusa as to where we would locate them.  We went there truly and found them and killed them.

MR LAX: Yes, the question really is this, did Mr Buxusa say to you that you must look for Mr so and so and Mr so and so and Mr so and so or did he just say to you when you get to Mthetwa's place, you will find some people there, I am not sure exactly who they are or what their names are, but whoever is there, you must just kill them?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Mr Buxusa did not give us the names, but he said he had already heard from his reliable sources that they will be gathering there for a meeting on this particular day, so we should go there and that is where we would find them conveniently, and kill them.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And when you attacked these people, you and the other three that were in your company, did you attack these people at random or did you specifically choose a particular victim and attack him?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We attacked them at random.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, it would appear from the record of the criminal trial against yourself, that neither yourself nor any of your co-perpetrators disguised yourself or made any attempt to conceal your facial features.  Is there any particular reason for that?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Because I wanted the people to see and identify me exactly for who I am, as an IFP, that is why we did not disguise.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: At the time that you attacked the deceased and the complainants, the victims, did you or any of your co-perpetrators ever steal any items from the complainants, from the deceased or from any of the victims?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No.  That did not happen.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It is also apparent from the record that a certain Mrs Maria Gcabashe was present throughout this attack?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Please repeat what you have just said.