Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I was instructed that an operation was happening and the base for that operation was the Winkelspruit shooting range and my unit was involved so therefore I was on standby that side.

MS BOTHA: Did anybody give you a specific instruction to wait there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: My immediate Commander, Col Botha.

MS BOTHA: And during the course of the interrogation and afterwards, did you see Messrs Radebe, Mbane and Dube in the vicinity?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were not in the interrogation room, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them in the vicinity at all at the base?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, they were in the vicinity of the base.

MS BOTHA: And at a stage when the body was removed, is it possible that they could have seen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't know where they would have been at the time of the removal.  It is possible, however I was of the opinion that we were doing it totally clandestinely.

MS BOTHA: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Samuel do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman

MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, were you present at any meeting where Mr Mbane or Mr Radebe were given instructions to pick up Nthombi Khubeka?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, I'm going to put Mr Mbane's version to you and you could tell this Commission whether you agree or disagree with it.  He will tell this Commission, his evidence will be that on the day in question, when Mr Botha and the others came to pick up Nthombi Khubeka, you were also present at that arrest?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's not so, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that he later met you all at Winkelspruit at the base.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was at the base on his arrival there.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that on his arrival there, he found Nthombi Khubeka bound hand and feet and blindfolded.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm sorry, say that again.

MR SAMUEL: When he saw Ms Khubeka at Winkelspruit, he noticed that she was bound both hand and feet and blindfolded.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, when I saw her at Winkelspruit in the interrogation room, storeroom, she was blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her alighting from the vehicle which brought her to the shooting range?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, I didn't.  I didn't see her being taken from the vehicles into the storeroom.

CHAIRPERSON: The first time you saw her was in the storeroom?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I entered the storeroom once she was inside.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that both Simon Radebe himself and Mr Dube were also present at the shooting range on the day in question.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, they were there.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that after Ms Khubeka had died, you together with, you are known as Lawrie am I right?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's Lawrie.

MR SAMUEL: He mentions Lawrie, Mr Myeza and Mr Coetzer were responsible for removing the body out of the room.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, neither Myeza nor Coetzer were involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was Mr Coetzer there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't recall Coetzer being anywhere Sir, in my mind.

MR SAMUEL: He will also state that at the time when the body was removed from the room, the body was wrapped in a blanket.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, du Preez and I took her in her clothing that she was in and placed her in the boot of the vehicle.

MR SAMUEL: Were you present at any stage when Mr Jimmy Mbane had handed two male persons, one by the name of Sbu from Lamontville, to yourselves?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I know nothing of that.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel.  Mr Wills, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Where were you, or shall I rather rephrase it, Mr Wasserman.  When were you first told of the death of Ms Khubeka, I mean in relation to when it occurred?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure how long exactly in minutes afterwards, but I was outside and Mr Taylor came and informed me that she had died.

MR WILLS: If you were outside, were you immediately outside the door where this assault was going on?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I was more by the sleeping portion of the camp at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you believe that you would have been told within a matter of minutes of the death, or a substantial time thereafter?  Did you get any idea?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I would imagine it would have been 5, 10 minutes or so afterwards, no longer than that.

MR WILLS: Surely this was quite a big crisis?  You would have been told immediately?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I wasn't told immediately.

MR WILLS: Was, sorry who did you say told you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Col Taylor came and informed me.

MR WILLS: Did he look worried?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, he did.

MR WILLS: How did you notice that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It wasn't his usual composure.  He said a mishap had occurred and Ms Khubeka had died.

MR WILLS: A mishap.  were those his words?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't recall the full word, but it was, there was a problem.   It was words to the effect of that..

MR WILLS: Of a mishap?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Or a problem.

MR WILLS: And what about Mr Botha, where was he?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know where he was at that point in time, Sir.

MR WILLS: No doubt, human curiosity would have compelled you to go into the room to see what happened?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, not at all.

MR WILLS: Why not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't suffer from that form of human curiosities.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in fact go into the room out of curiosity or not after you were told?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no I didn't.  When I was informed that I am to assist in the removal of the body, I then went into the room.

MR WILLS: How long after you'd been told that she'd died was that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd estimate 30 minutes or so.

MR WILLS: I thought when you went to remove the body you'd waited for everyone to go to sleep. Did everyone go to sleep within ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said now Mr Wills, that:  "I only went into the room after I was told to assist in the removal of the body", not at the actual removal of the body.  That's my note in any event.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Is that indeed the case?  You went in there, you must have gone in there twice then?  Once when you were told about the removal of the body and then once when you actually removed the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: When I was told to remove the body, I went in.

MR WILLS: So that was the first time and the only time you went into the room, when Ms Khubeka was dead?  In other words once after her death you went in and for the purpose to remove the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I didn't go into the room otherwise.

MR WILLS: So then my question is correct, in that that would have been half an hour after you were told that she'd died?  That's your evidence.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: So everyone went to sleep within half an hour of her dying?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't say if the other people were asleep.  I went into the room within approximately 30 minutes or so afterwards.