Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

MR MALAN: Mr Dibakoane, yes I see your anguish, getting a lot of information basically on hearsay and rumour from all over and it does not contribute to your locating your uncle.  We will probably have some of that same problem in having to go through all the names that you have given us, and as I've said we have already instituted some action in terms of asking for comment.  It is absolutely clear to us that your uncle is gone, we don't know where to find him, and we will probably to an extent be taking over your search, we cannot guarantee anything, but we probably have a little more muscle than you have in order to locate that and we will do our best. There may be some further questions and I hand the chair back to our Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Reuben can I just ask you for some clarification here, you mention a number of people Daniel Lengosane is one of them, and Sebatha is the other person who seems to feature quite largely, do you know where they live, are they still around.

MR DIPAKOANE: Yes most of them, in fact all of them they living in Zakane, that is our township, and most of them are people who went outside the country together with him, and regarding Sebatha, I don't know his whereabouts but I've heard that he's holding a key position within the government and he might be somewhere in Pretoria.  And so far as Lengosane is concerned, he's a bodyguard of the Deputy President Mbeki.

DR RANDERA: Moleke I just want ask you a question, I know you said you didn't want to speculate yourself as to what's happened to your brother, but in the light of what's been said now, I wonder whether you could actually say something because you came back into the country much later, you must have, through your own network within the ANC, made a number of enquiries yourself. I just want to know whether you would like to say anything yourself about the disappearance of your brother and the speculation that he had joined the Ascaris.  And my last question is, how do you feel about the ANC yourself now?

MR RANYAOA: No I'm not going to be diplomatic, I'm bitter, very bitter.  I know our people how they think, they mystify the ANC, they must separate the quest for democracy from irresponsible people.  I'm not questioning their ideals for democracy, I've sacrificed my youth for that, but I tried, I went to the Red Cross in Scotland.  At least for the first time somebody was listening to me, but by virtue of the geography, they can't do anything, they couldn't do anything.  They wished to help me.  Okay 1992 when I came back for the first time from exile, when I was back here for a brief moment, we tried to go to Shell House.  These people acted the way I knew they'd act, because I was in Tanzania, I know how ANC officials act.  If you are a rank and file person in the ANC you are nothing, we used to call rank and swine, you will forgive me for saying that, that's why I was not surprised, but this is my profound feeling, if according to the mandate given by the government, you have those powers to flex your muscles and then find out about this. I think it's a wish of the family that in a normal democracy, so to say, people under investigation concerning this, it's my deep feeling, they should relinquish their official positions, because this is not compatible withe the spirit of democracy, otherwise it would be a laughing stock to talk about democracy.  I think, I hate to be emotional, I always like to be rational so that things are in order, but I can't hold myself, I'm very bitter, I'm very angry, and I realize that Reuben has omitted something.
 I used to be hunted together with my brothers by a certain Baloyi a security policeman with his white fascist friends with little brains.  These people have contributed to the death of my mum, I think I nearly got mad, that's while I was doing my BSc Honours, I completed my degree component but I couldn't complete my honours complement in Scotland because I was getting mad every day, that's why I came here. You know that with regard to these people, this Baloyi must be hunted, I understand, I've not seen him, he sleeps there in my township, he's driving a Mercedes Benz and all those things, he must be found and he must get his little white fascists with little brains.  Forgive me, God only forgives and Jesus forgives, anyway I don't even believe myself, it's beside the point, these people, really I want them to be prosecuted, two points.  
 The officials of the ANC who are responsible for this mess they should relinquish their posts and then this security policeman with his little white fascist friends, I want them to be prosecuted, otherwise I'm going to be mad, because we must be joking, talking about democracy and reconciliation, to me it doesn't make sense.  I mean the reason why you must have reconciliation with these people, I understand is because they say these people have got fire power, they will rock the boat.  Oh my God it's a big joke, these people, the fact that they are threatening democracy, it must be enough reason why we should prosecute them.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much. I'm going to ask the Chairperson to take over, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Reuben I want to just ask you one or two quick questions to assist us to assist you and I understand or I'm trying to understand that one of the worst things is not to know. In your statement that you gave to our staff, you mentioned that one of the people who confirmed or stated that your uncle had a connection with the Ascaris was Steve Tswhete, that's one of the names you haven't mentioned in your oral testimony, and I'm wondering if you can just comment on that as a first question.

MR DIPAKOANE: Probably you might have missed my oral statement, I did make mention of Steve Tshwete having said within the camps whilst they were in exile that ..(end of tape) ..... moment. Chris Hani has been assassinated, you know that has actually rocked the family in the sense that he had information about the whereabouts of my uncle, though he didn't come straight to the point because him, being a Chief of Staff of the MK, he merely said when he came to Zakane on the 16th of December '92 if I'm not mistaken, we went to him and asked him about the whereabouts and he said my brother is now with the Ascaris so we've got nothing to do with him and from his story we had the reason to believe that he also had the stake, but now when one assesses the whole stories and tries to reconcile all the versions of the stories, one could actually see that there is one person within the MK who had the personal objective and made it a point that he has to remove my uncle from the in field.  We just couldn't understand the whole versions of the story, more so that Sebatha himself, you know I would be very happy if he could be actually investigated thoroughly, he must know about the whereabouts of my uncle.  If he has passed away the ANC must take us where he has been buried and we want to bring him back into the country and give him a decent funeral, and they have to take responsibility on the expenses of collecting his remains and of burying him. Then the law has to take its course.  With that one we don't beat about the bush, the law has to take its course, because if we are going to leave the whole thing like that then the ANC is going to be flooded with people with their subjective ideas, with their personal ideas, personal gains within the ANC and that is going to lead to the ANC's downfall.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, the other question was, in order to try and assist us to help you, you mentioned Sebatha and you mentioned it was an alias, do you know his full name?