Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: We were helping each other, that is myself and the other comrades I was with when I filled in the form.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps you can just tell the committee, whatever is noted or on your application form, what you wrote on this form, did you understand what you wrote there?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, he must have had the bona fide belief that it was correct, isn't it?   He may have been mistaken, but he didn't think so?

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps I can rephrase, if you look at this application form now, can you read and understand what is written in your application form?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: With regard to what exactly?

MR HATTINGH: What you wrote on this form.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe, Mr Hattingh, you must point out the issues that you want him to, the form has a lot of mundane issues as well.

MR HATTINGH: What I'm talking about is where you - in the form you have to give details about the incident for which you make application.   That you also wrote yourself, is that correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Could you please repeat yourself?

MR HATTINGH: The details of the incidents for which you were making application for amnesty, those details you're supposed to put in this form.   Can you remember that?

CHAIRPERSON: Could he be referred to a particular page or whatever?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, let's start on page 41, paragraph 9(a)(1).   Can you read what you wrote there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Which part should I read, should I start from the beginning of the page or should - I don't know where you're referring to.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, I'm not going to waste further time, what I - perhaps you can explain to this committee is, I cannot find anywhere in this document any reference or any admission by you or any explanation or any disclosure by you of the killing of Obed.   It would appear to me that you did not apply for amnesty for the killing of Obed, because you didn't ask for it, you didn't give the details thereof.   If I may refer to, it's obviously sketchy and we - page 44.11(b), he starts about at - he relates about what happened at Dube disco.   Mr Chairman on page 44.11(b) it is stated no-one was killed that time, that's all that is stated.   Page 44 of the bundle, under paragraph 11(b) it is stated no-one was killed that time, but it is only Obed Nhlabathi injured, member of Inkatha.  In the... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you... (intervention).

MR HATTINGH: On page 44 of the bundle, it's page 5 of the application, we have paragraph 11(a) and then 11(b), where it starts
"I do this because I was endangered..."
or:-
"I do this because I was in danger..."
and then he carries on, about on the fifth line, it says:-
"No-one was killed that time.   Only Obed was injured."

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, if I may be of assistance.   Now on page 41 of the bundle, on paragraph 9(a) of the application form, the acts for which amnesty is sought there, murder is there, amongst others, and then on page 42, the victim is named there as Obed Nhlabathi.   Now the impression that one can give is that the murder is in relation to Obed Nhlabathi, unless some other explanation may be needed.

MR BLACK: Thank you.   Mr Chairman, may I also add that, well I'm certain that this committee has had various forms placed before it, but I would submit that the offences in respect of which application is being sought, are actually named, and as the leader of evidence points out, there's a victim involved and then there's some elaboration.   It's for this reason, of course it could also be established whether he had legal representation or assistance at the time, it is for this reason that supplementary statements often have to accompany these forms when, by the time it comes to the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I don't think we're going to have anything turn on this, it's quite obvious that the intention to apply for the murder and attempted murder, as two separate incidents.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If you look on page 45, you will see there also that he says he was sentenced for murder, attempted murder and the possession of... (intervention).

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, the question remains, you gave no details whatsoever, no disclosure of the killing of Obed in your application.   Why not?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: There is somewhere where I wrote that I killed, I attempted to kill and I possessed illegal firearms as well as ammunition.    It is somewhere in my application form.   I might have probably filled it in at the wrong place, but filling it I did.

MR HATTINGH: I merely wish to put to you that you, on appraisal of the application form, there is no disclosure of the incident, the details of the killing incident.   Do you have any comment?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, before the witness answer that, but Mr Hattingh, what is he required to do in terms of the Act when he applies for amnesty?   Is he not supposed to state the offence or crime or delict in respect of which he's applying for amnesty as well as the victim or victims, and further detail and evidence to be led there at the hearing?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, that's not the way I understood the Act to be, I thought one would have to make application and give full disclosure, that was the initial idea, that one would give full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: At the hearing.

MR HATTINGH: I'll accept that, Chairperson.   Mr Khaba, in your application form, you describe the reason, your motive for doing what you did, as one of self defence?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: You say that, on page 43 under sub-paragraph (b), and I'm going to read what is written here
"I do this because was a political motivated because the member of Inkatha, when he saw me, they tried to kill me because I give evidence in Goldstone Commission about his working with SAP."
And then, again on page 44, under paragraph 11(b), under the paragraph:-
"If so stated, particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person who gave such order or approval."
Then you say again:-
"I do this because I was in danger.   The member of Inkatha was trying to kill..."
something:-
"...and me in Dube tonight disco, and they shoot my friend in the legs."
What I want to put to you is that nowhere in this application do you say a word, a single word, to the effect that you were acting under the instructions of Gushu to eliminate Obed, which is absolutely in contradiction with your evidence today?

CHAIRPERSON: How does it contradict the evidence?

MR HATTINGH: It contradicts the evidence to the effect that today he says that the reason for killing Obed was politically motivated, he was under instruction of his MK commander, Gushu.   In... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But does that become a contradiction if he leaves it out then?   It's a different thing if he said there, "I didn't act under orders", not so?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I can do as much as I can.   I think what I would like to say is, he contradicts his motive.   In the one instance in his application his motive is one of self-defence, now he contradicts himself in his evidence today and his motivation was, he today gives it as being one of a command or instruction from his MK commander.  That I, in my personal opinion, considered a contradiction.

CHAIRPERSON: But would you agree in the context it's not destructive of each other, not so?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I cannot say more than in my opinion it in fact constitutes a contradiction of his intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it disputed that the two sides were attacking and killing each other?