Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, you had completed your examination in chief?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Armoed, on the 7th of December 1993, when you were taking the youth to the veld, you were armed as an operator?

MR ARMOED: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, are there any operators who are not armed?

MR ARMOED: There was only one.

MR MAPOMA: Who was that one?

MR ARMOED: Vusu Mthembu.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know of any reason why he wasn't armed?

MR ARMOED: No.

MR MAPOMA: Did you not find out, as other operators, why an operator is not armed?

MR ARMOED: No, I did not establish why the other operator was not armed.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Jabulani Nkmalo(?).

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know Jabulani Nkmalo.   I know Jabulani Ngdoese.

MR MAPOMA: Is Jabulani Ngdoese in this hearing today?

MR ARMOED: Yes, he is here.

MR MAPOMA: Can you point him?

MR ARMOED: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: For the record, chairperson, the person who has just been pointed is referred to in our records as Jabulani Nkmalo.

CHAIRPERSON: So is Jabulani Ngdoese and Jabulani Nkmalo, the same persons?

MR ARMOED: I don't know about that, I know he is Ngdoese.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, Mr Armoed, I just want to clarify the matter with Mr Mapoma.   Is Jabulani Nkmalo and Jabulani Ngdoese one and the same person?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, it's difficult because in our records, we don't have any Jabulani Ngdoese, we have Jabulani Nkmalo, and this Jabulani Nkmalo is that person who has just been pointed now as Jabulani Ngdoese by the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now in your evidence ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, Mr Nkmalo, what are your full names?   Is Jabulani your name?

MR NKMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also called Jabulani Ngdoese?   Is your father Ngdoese?

MR NKMALO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chairperson.   Now, Mr Armoed, I'm going to refer to this person as Jabulani, you said in your evidence in chief that you found this person in the shack when you were from the toilet, is that correct?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you inquired from him how did he happen to be there?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I asked him what he wanted?

MR MAPOMA: You're referring to Jabulani?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Were you seeing him for the first time in the shack on that day?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I was seeing him for the first time in that shack.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct that Jabulani stays in your area in Moleleki?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So it is not correct that Jabulani stays somewhere else?

MR ARMOED: At that time he was staying, residing in Moleleki, and he left, I don't know where he went to.

MR MAPOMA: Isn't it correct that when Jabulani was abducted from his home, you were one of the people who were there?

MR ARMOED: That is not correct.

MR MAPOMA: Jabulani will say that you were there amongst the men who took him by force from his home.    What do you say on that?

MR ARMOED: He would be telling a lie, because I was not there when he was taken, I would not have let him go.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you were on guard for the youth in Ishaga(?), who gave you instructions to be on guard?

MR ARMOED: It was Sugar Ramebele.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Sugar when you released Jabu?

MR ARMOED: Sugar was not there when I released Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Jabu and Jabulani one and the same person?

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry, chairperson, for the record yes, it's one and the same person.   Can you explain how did you happen to release a person when you have been given instructions to keep that person?

MR ARMOED: I was not ordered to keep him, because I found him there in the shack when I came back from the toilet and I asked him what he wanted.   He then told me that he was fetched by some men at home and brought there.

MR MAPOMA: And when you released the other two young, how did you release those?

MR ARMOED: I released the other two because Rame had instructed me that if young ones were brought here, I should release them.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you, let's go to the place where the corpse of Bulelwa was lying.   You said in your evidence in chief that you left with the driver of the car, together with Njebe to, where were you going?

MR ARMOED: I left with Njebe to go and look for a car, we found it, we came back.   Njebe then left with Nthebo, he did not go with me in a car, I was left behind.

MR MAPOMA: So it was Njebe, Sipho Baluang and the driver?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Mr Mthembu, who has just given evidence here?

MR ARMOED: Mr Mthembu was not there at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Now you said Jabulani was injured when you saw him in the shack?

MR ARMOED: Yes, he was injured in the arm.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you how he happened to be injured?

MR ARMOED: Yes, he told me, he said he was beaten by one of the self defence unit members.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you who from the self defence unit injured him?

MR ARMOED: No, he said he didn't know him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you chairperson, those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

UNKNOWN: Mr Armoed, when you released the youth that you released, you had not, had you, were you already given the order to kill him?

MR ARMOED: No, I was not given such orders.

UNKNOWN: Had you been given an order to kill them already, would you have released them?

MR ARMOED: No, I would not have released them.

UNKNOWN: Why not?

MR ARMOED: Because in that case the orders would have been given already.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Armoed, you said the NYD self defence units were formed were to protect the community.   I want to know from you, to protect the community from whom?

MR ARMOED: We were protecting the community in fear of Inkatha and gangsters.

MR SIBANYONI: Right.   And that protection, what did it entail, what were your terms of reference, how were you to protect the community, by doing what?

MR ARMOED: We had to patrol at night, looking for Inkatha and gangsters, make sure that no-one of the community, none in the community is harassed.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, in the event you find these gangsters and Inkatha, what were you supposed to do with them?

MR ARMOED: We would capture them and if the commander was there, he is the one who would issue an order what to do with them.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words there were no clear indications, before those people would be arrested, what should be done with them in the event they are arrested?

MR ARMOED: Yes, it was not clear, because we were supposed to take them to the commander if he was not nearer, and he was the one who would give an instruction as to what to do with them.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Armoed, when the, if the Internal Stability Unit arrived, to pick up the corpse, were you present?

MR ARMOED: No, I was not there, I was watching over the boys in the shack.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, chairperson.   Mr Armoed, I just have one question for you.   You say whilst escorting the comrades to the veld, they were beaten up.   Do you recall you saying that?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I remember saying that.

ADV MOTATA: Could you give us an indication how they were assaulted whilst escorted to the veld?

MR ARMOED: They were beaten by sticks at the back and the buttocks.

ADV MOTATA: Would I be understanding you to say that you people, that is the SDU's, had assortment of weapons, including sticks, when you escorted them to the veld?

MR ARMOED: Yes, there were sticks.

ADV MOTATA: Are you able to give an indication who amongst your members carried such weaponry, that is sticks for instance?