Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

ADV MEMANI: Do you recall the specific date?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(indistinct)  records circumstances, this incident is 
referred to on page 5 of the annexure to his application, is that correct?

MS THABETHA: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now may I add that our numbering is not the same because 
of the fact that I'm using the, what is referred to as the Second Application Mr 
Chairperson.  Now Mr Ngo, can you tell the Committee the circumstances 
surrounding the kidnap of Mr Mohape.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It happened that Mohape was an influential leader in the COSAS.

ADV MEMANI: Were you alone when you kidnapped Mr Mohape?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, it was Ditsametsi, Mamome, Ntyala and Cronje.

ADV MEMANI: Now where were these persons, were these 
persons...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry who were the last two please?  Ditsametsi, 
Mamome, Ntyala and Cronje as in Afrikaans.

ADV MEMANI: Now how did you know these persons, what was your 
relationship with these persons?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Do you mean these people I committed this kidnap with?  Those 
are the policemen.

ADV MEMANI: Were they stationed?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were stationed at Fountain.

ADV MEMANI: Where is Fountain.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: At whose command was Mohape abducted?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was under the direction or instruction of Colonel Coetzee, 
Erasmus and Shaw.

ADV MEMANI: Where did he give the order?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were in the office.

ADV MEMANI: Which office?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were at parade when we were just about to knock off at 
Fountain Police Station.

ADV MEMANI: And why was Mohape, before we go to that, when was the 
order to abduct him given?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said at a parade when we were just about to knock off.

ADV MEMANI: And why was Mohape abducted?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was influencing the students and again he was leading them to 
commit public violence. When we laid charges against him in court he was able 
to win all those cases. Then they were fed up because they said every time we 
lay charges against him he always has lawyers. We detained him for a while, 
then when he was supposed to be released ...(intervention)

ADV MEMANI: You said that they were now fed up. Who are these people 
who were fed up?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I mean the police who were arresting for public violence, that is 
Coetzee and them.  When he was supposed to be released we got that 
information, then they said that we should come, after we have knocked off that 
we should come and kidnap him, so they phoned the Hilton Police Station 
where he was detained, either Hilton Police Station or Bayswater Police 
Station.  Then they were instructed that he should be not released early in the 
morning. After that they sent two policemen, that is Ditsametsi and Sgt 
Mamome, then they said that they should wait for him somewhere, that they 
should observe his movements. On his way to the township they should arrest 
him.

ADV MEMANI: Did that occur?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes after we knocked off we took a car, we went to Ramkraal 
then we waited for him there.  After some time when they were there we heard 
them on the radio that they found him, they told us at Ramkraal, then we went 
to that point together with Cronje and took him to the place called Cellar. That 
is where we hit him with hammers and crowbars.

ADV MEMANI: Now was he able to recognise you at that stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was not able to see us on the face but we had balaclavas on.

ADV MEMANI: Did he according to your knowledge become aware of your 
identity before you applied for amnesty?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was not able to identify us because we had balaclavas on the 
face and it was night and it was dark where we were assaulting him.  We 
pressed him on the ground and at Bloemspruit and hit him there, then we left 
him there.

ADV MEMANI: And why was he beaten up at that stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were pressing him against the floor and he was trying to fight 
back but every time we would win him and hit him.  As we were busy 
assaulting him he managed to run away and he fell on the ground.  It wasn't 
quite a distance, he fell and then we just left him there.

ADV MEMANI: Why didn't you for instance shoot him or kill  him at that 
stage?

ADV MEMANI: We were not told to kill him, it was part of harassment just 
to harass him.  If we were given an instruction to kill him we would have shot 
him dead without any use of hammers, we were told just to assault him and we 
used hammers. We were told to kidnap him, assault him.

ADV MEMANI: Now what did he do after you beat him up and he ran away?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We also ran and we took the car and we drove off.  we do not 
know what happened to him thereafter.

ADV MEMANI: Now you told us earlier on that the persons that were 
involved were yourself, Ditsametsi, Mamome, Ntyala and Cronje.  Did all of 
these persons actively participate in the beating up of Mr Mohapi.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The white man Cronje was left behind in the car.

JUDGE WILSON: Did the rest of you participate?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: And how far away in the car was Cronje?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It could have been towards the end of the hall I think.  We were 
actually driving in two cars, he was taking care of the cars.

JUDGE WILSON: Twenty, twenty five paces?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  And was he at all times aware of the 
plan to assault Mr Mohape.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes we left our place knowing that we have to assault him and we 
communicated with the radios and we followed them and they could see that 
we were following him. They actually signed, they showed us a sign so that we 
could follow them and we did.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Now what was the rank of Ditsametsi at the time?
Let's start with yours, what was your rank at the time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was a constable.

ADV MEMANI: And what was Ditsametsi's rank?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a warrant officer.

ADV MEMANI: And what was Mamome's rank?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a sergeant.

ADV MEMANI: And Ntyala?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a constable.

ADV MEMANI: Cronje.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was also a warrant officer.

ADV MEMANI: Was any of these persons acting in a supervisory capacity of 
one kind or another over you at that time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They came with White to us but we were not told who was 
supervising, but we knew that the warrant officer was the most senior person 
and we would take instructions from him if it was necessary.  But the fact of 
the matter is they came  Ditsomai and we followed them and we assaulted him. 
 The person who took care of the car was Cronje but the rest participated in the 
assault.

ADV MEMANI: At the time when you were instructed to abduct or assist in 
the abduction of Mr Mohape and during the assault of Mohape, did you regard 
yourself as being a person acting in his capacity as a policeman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was our duty as the Security Branch members to kidnap people, 
and if someone was troublesome with us we knew that we had to harass him.  
We took it as a normal duty because we were involved in such activities.

ADV MEMANI: Did you report to anyone about the incident after you had 
finished dealing with Mr Mohape?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mamume and them went to Coetzee to report that we found our 
target and he was assaulted. I didn't personally stand up and say I did the job, 
we have done the job.

ADV MEMANI: Were you present when Mamume reported?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Every day when we attended the parade we were together and it 
was our responsibility to report about the deeds of the previous night.  I was 
present when the report was taken forward.