Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter that we'll be hearing are the amnesty applications of Pumelele Gumengu and Allan Tyani.  The reference number of Gumengu is AM3610/96 and that of Tyani, AM3786/96.
	The Panel is constituted as has been already indicated on the record.  I'm going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record for the applicants.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Kobus Malan of the attorneys firm Kobus Malan Attorneys in Northum, I'm acting on behalf of both the applicants in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan.  For the family?

MR MNQANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Philiza Mnqandi, Mnqandi is M-n-q-a-n-d-i.  I'm acting on behalf of the victims and I'm from Ntsebeza Incorporated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mnqandi.  And then the Leader of Evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  My name is Zuko Mapoma, Leader of Evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Yes, Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to call Mr Pumelele Gumengu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumengu, is your headset working?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, it is working.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gumengu, where do you reside presently?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I am from Thimane in eDudjwa, but I reside in Northern Province.

MR MALAN: Right.  You are making your application to this Honourable Committee regarding the death of Sthembele Zokwe.  In the first instance the attempted murder and in the second instance the actual murder of Sthembele Zokwe, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You are an applicant in terms of Section 18, as well as Section 20 of Act 34/95 and you complied with all the prerequisites in this regard, except for one aspect that you could or were not in a position to fill in the application form completely, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you explain to the Committee why the form was not filled in properly at the time when we took down the particulars?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: ...(no English interpretation)  We forwarded the forms, we were in a hurry because of time constraints.

MR MALAN: Can you also confirm to the Committee that it was indicated by members of the Truth Commission, that we can submit the forms in that form and if needs be we can fill in the necessary ...

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that's what we were told.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Malan, it would appear that two forms were filled in, the one in April 1997, which was the one that you're referring to now which is indicated on the form that there'll be later submissions and then the first one that appears on page 3 of the bundle, which doesn't seem to fall into the category of form that you were referring to.

MR MALAN: Mr Chairman, that is indeed correct.  I can just put it to the Committee that with regard to the form on page 3, I did not assist the client at that point in time and he was referred at a later stage via the Truth Commission to me and that's where I can vouch for, from there on.
	Mr Gumengu, would you please give the Committee a brief 
background of your training in the Police Force.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was employed on the 31st March 1982.  I attended training, basic police training in July 1982 and it came to end in December 1982.  That took place in Hammanskraal Police College in South Africa.

MR MALAN: But during 1985 you were recruited by one, Lieut John Mfazwe to enlist with the Security Police of the Transkei, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Where is this Lt Mfazwe now?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He is now late.

MR MALAN: Can you give us an indication when and in which manner did he die?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was involved in a car accident in June or July 1990.

MR MALAN: During June 1986, you enrolled with the Anti-Terrorist Unit in the Transkei, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And during February and March 1987, you attended a demolitions course which was held by the South African Police at Groblersdal, and on that course you also received the highest marks of the whole course, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: During April and May of '87, the Lieutenant in the meanwhile became Capt Mfazwe, he requested you to go to his offices personally and he said that you will be earmarked for special tasks and that you have to report to him only.  These tasks would be solely in the interests of the Transkeian people, am I correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you have any reason to doubt your superiors at that point in time?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I had no reason to doubt my authorities because I trusted them.

MR MALAN: Can you briefly point out to the Committee what your political views were in that stage of your life.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As a member of the Security Police, there were banned organisations.  Our task as the Security Police was to deal with people who were promoting the interests of these banned organisations, those organisations that were banned in Transkei.

MR MALAN: Who were those organisations, can you name them?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Many of them, amongst them there was ANC, there was SACP, there was PAC, there was UDF, AZAPO and the others.  I think there were about 13 organisations.

MR MALAN: Was it part of your mandate and task to fight terrorism as we have known it, at that point in time?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: By which ways were you trained to fight the onslaught?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The manner in which we were fighting would changed from time to time according to the strategy that was used by the resistance organisations and the units would be established according to the situation prevailing at the time.  All of us, though we were in the Security Force, but our units were different and our assignments were also different and our assignments would depend on the situation prevailing at the time.

MR MALAN: Your enrolment with the Security Police, did it imply that you were working with top secret missions?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That was the first thing that was indicated.  On the very first day you have to sign a specific document that mentions that you are actually dealing with top secret and you are never to reveal any information concerning that and all the time you are supposed to work per instruction from your operatives.

MR MALAN: Was it in that sense weird for you or out of the normal than if you received orders only from one man and if you have to report only back to one man?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: To me there was nothing unusual about that in the sense that when the units were established they would be open for one person or more, but there was a situation whereby you have to know that you have to contribute because of the situation and the other people are not supposed to get some details, therefore you would be forced to report to one person, not just anyone.

MR MALAN: Right.  Have you ever received orders - I'm going to phrase it in italics or inverted commas, "from the top"?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I would receive instructions, that was a normal thing.

MR MALAN: And what was your view, how do you interpret instructions from the top, what did you understand by that term?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: If I say it's an instruction, it's something that I have to do and I should ensure that it's something that is allowed by the government and it's something that supposed to help the government of the time.

MR MALAN: In other words am I correct if I state that you were under the impression that when you are executing orders in that sense from the top, you were well in the boundaries of the law?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.