Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mofokeng, what I wanted to know, did it come to your knowledge at that particular stage that he alleges that he was a member of APLA?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No, I don't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I won't take it any further.  The other point I would like, although it is not arising Mr Chairperson, but for the completeness of this matter I would like it, to canvassss, maybe he can be asked, the other members will ask about it.
	When you were going to Transkei what happened to the items that you repossessed, put it from the two families, Jacobs and - with the exception of the motor vehicles and other items which were found during the accident?  What happened, we have heard that the Toyota Corolla was dumped somewhere.  What happened to the other items, T.V., Hi-Fi if I'm not mistaken, quite a number of them.  Do you know what happened to those items?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I know what happened to it.  That property was taken by Brixton because it was put together at Kopane's house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that it was found at Kopane's house, all those goods that you took from the two families?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes it was found at Kopane's house, then I want the Committee to understand it this way, Kopane stays at Molatani.  Where the property was found was where Kopane was renting.  When I say that it was found at Kopane's house I mean it is where he rented a room there so it was found at Kopane's house where he was renting.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, if I may follow up, I wouldn't like to abuse this chance.

CHAIRPERSON: You can follow up, I'll give the other's a chance to ask questions on this new point.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did Monde tell you what is going to be done by these repossessed items?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No he did not tell me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You also, you didn't ask about them?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: As I said before, when I testified, I have little knowledge about PAC and APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you ask him what was going to happen with the items that were taken?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I did not ask him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But as your evidence, what you know is that you went there because you wanted a motor vehicle to go to Transkei, when you went to Mr Jacobs house, the first incident?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you did not manage to get it because they pressed alarm buttons, that's why you went to Mr Stanton's house on the 18th?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is correct, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions arising out of this last point raised by Mr Mbandazayo which wasn't really re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just one Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mofokeng, part of the loot was found at Kopane's place and the other, that is the jewellery and other things were found in the possession of Mr Nkabinde, after the accident in Bloemfontein.  Am I correct?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No it's not like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde said that after the accident certain of the stolen goods were recovered in his possession.  He had a jacket, a lumber jacket and he had certain pieces of jewellery which he says was in the pocket of the jacket, that's what Mr Nkabinde said, at Smithfield?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: He said on the lumber jacket he wore had some jewellery inside.  I agree with him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you agree with me then if I say there was already a division of the loot, it was not kept at one place or given to one person?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I dispute that sir.  I dispute that because of the following reason.  If you say the part of the loot, the loot was divided it means the police were supposed to get something from me or from each of us, so it was found in - at Kopane's house only.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, no, no, it's not Kopane's house only.  Mr Nkabinde, as the Chair has explained to you, testified that part of the jewellery and other things were found in his possession when he had the jacket on and he said further on this jacket belonged to Monde, it was given to him when he was cold.  Now this was at two different places.

CHAIRPERSON: And it must have therefore have been in the vehicle because he only asked for it once the journey had commenced.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's correct Mr Chairman, it was never only at Kopane it was two different places.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I thought you're asking about various places, that it was found at various places or within houses, various houses that at my place and other people's places, some part of the loot was found.  I thought you're asking that way.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you then agree after understanding what I am saying that there was a division of the loot?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I agree with what you say now.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV MOTATA: I have none Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
	When did you leave school?  How old were you?  How old were you when you left school?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I don't remember well when I - how old I was when I left school.

ADV BOSMAN: Approximately?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I think I was 17, about 17 years old.

ADV BOSMAN: And at the time of the incident, how old were you then?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I was 28 years old at the time.

ADV BOSMAN: And when did you develop this interest in politics?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I'd say in 1991, somewhere there.

ADV BOSMAN: And what political activities did you participate in?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I did not play any role or take any part in political activity, I would only support PAC.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you for the first time become interested in the PAC?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It was around 1991.  During the time of Zeph Mothopeng.

ADV BOSMAN: Had you lived in Johannesburg all that time, in the area, in Johannesburg area?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now during which years was the political activity of the young people at it's height in the Johannesburg area, during which period?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I know about 1976/1977, around there.

ADV BOSMAN: Now I wonder if you could just explain why there was no interest shown by you until 1991 when you were quite a mature person?  Only then did you develop this passion for being trained as a military cadre.  Why was that, what triggered it?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Around 1976 I knew what was happening around me and as I knew what was happening, there was nobody next to ...(indistinct) any light about politics or who will take me for military training, I did not know anybody.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you live in a township?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I was living in a township.

ADV BOSMAN: And there was nobody you knew who would perhaps assist you in getting military training and to get you out of the country or to tell you about contacts, no one at all?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: There was nobody whom I was close, whom I discussed with him or give him reasons why I have an urge to go for military training.  At the time I did not know anything about PAC and ANC or any other political organisation which was for liberation.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know on what date or what year the present President of the country was released from prison?  When was Mr Nelson Mandela released?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: If I'm not mistaken, it was in 1990 or 1991, that's when he was released.

ADV BOSMAN: Now was that not the stage in South Africa when people started to think well at least now we are going in the right direction, apart from the right-wing?