Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Then you spoke to Mapula at some stage and you enquired, this was did you say 1993?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked her about Mooketsi and she then told you that he was married to another woman?
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CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: She did not say I was married to another person, she said Mooketsi is married to somebody else.  Not Mapula,  Mooketsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mooketsi was ...

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... married to somebody else.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And at an earlier occasion when you spoke to her she said that he was fine, but that was after 1983?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Not?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: No, she told me she was fine the time when she phoned.  She said he was fine.  He did not say anything about it.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was already after 1986 was it not?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: No.  Yes, in your statement you say ...

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: No, we forget something and then we wrote it after on that statement when we write the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Really, my line of questioning leads me to asking you the question, you accept on the information from the Welfare Department in Shell House that your son, indeed, did die in 1983?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: You are 100% sure about that?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes, they called me in the 22nd of February 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: When they tell me that he is dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you that he was buried in Zambia?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: They did not say anything, they said they are
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going to investigate.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and you have not heard from them yet?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are really asking us to investigate on your behalf?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Please, because the relatives and their sisters they want to know what had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So when Mapula spoke to you in 1993 she had no knowledge of Mooketsi's death?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: I think she knows.  She was just coming to grab the child.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: She thought that if she can tell me that Mooketsi is dead I will not allow the child.  I thought so.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  No, that makes your thinking clear to me.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Do you have another question Tom?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I want to know that who is with the child at present?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: The child is with Mapula that is the child's mother.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: But they are not in Soweto, they are somewhere in Pietersburg where she works.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have an address of Mapula's?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: I have not got it, but the child was phoning to me, but I think he was stealing the phone to phone me because he promised me that he will come in June holidays, but he did not come.
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CHAIRPERSON: Would it be possible for you to get us a telephone number or an address of Mapula?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: I do not think I can get it.  Where?  If the child can phone, but I do not promise.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just thinking maybe Mapula may have some information.  As you said she did not want to give you at the time and maybe if we could also question her we can get some information from her.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: But maybe at Shell House you can get the addresses of Mapula, at Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mokoena, thank you very much.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Thanks a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mrs Sooka has another question.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama, do you know if Mapula, does she work for the ANC?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: In Pietersburg?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Well, in Pietersburg I do not know whether she is working with ANC.  I am not sure because the last time Pontso, when Pontso phoned me he told me that they were enquiring Mapula to come and work in the Government in ANC, but I am not sure of that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Does she still go under the surname of Mokoena?  Do you know?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Who, Pontso.  Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mapula?

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Mapula is Mokoena also.  They were both Mokoena married together.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mokoena, thank you very much.  We, I think PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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we have some leads or some contact points, some names where we can follow through on this.  Again in good time and it will not be too soon because we are still busy moving right across the country as you know.  We will be coming back to you and we will be reporting to you.  Thank you very much for having ...

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... come to us to share the information with us and to tell us your story.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much and may I then also ask the audience just to wait a while.  This is the last witness that we will have for the day, but, again, in respect for the witnesses who came to testify, I would appreciate if we all could stand again and allow them to leave the hall first.  Thank you very much.
 Tomorrow we are starting at nine o' clock again.  You can tell your friends.  There will hopefully be a better, more publicity tomorrow.  Thank you to everyone of you.  
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