Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: R.M. Mzimela is the Secretary, I don't know now, but at that time he was the Secretary of the KwaZulu Legislative Assembly.  His home is Mzimela, that is his place of origin, an area that is under Chief Mzimela at Empangeni and other Caprivians helped him to kill many people in Empangeni.  The very same Mzimela about whom I am talking here.
	He is actually the one who was supplying people with AK47's, and he got them from the Boers because there were no other friends of his apart from the Boers.
	Now, I would refer to Prince Gideon Zulu.  He was my neighbour from where I stayed.  I think it was a third house from my place at Ulundi.
	I don't know how many times I went to his place to drink beer and celebrate with him.  I used to attend rallies with him, the IFP rallies.
	I also accompanied him to the King's celebration in his African regalia.  I was with him at a meeting where (indistinct) Mkhize were given a government car.  That very same car that was issued by M.R. Mzimela, issuing it out as a State car in my presence, and this car was given to (indistinct) Mkhize who was with Romeo in my presence.
	Now, Gideon Zulu on the day when he told me that there is a person at Eshowe, a man who was apparently a male nurse, he was working at a hospital, a man who was a relative to the Kraal, that is the Kingship at Nongoma, this person had to be killed.  I was present there as well.
	Brigadier Mzimela is a Chief or a Headman at Sikhawini, even though I have forgotten the name of the place.  
	If there were Inkatha meetings, he would take off his Police hat and put it aside, and he would become a Headman and he would also become an IFP member.
	He was working very close with (indistinct) Mkhize.  That is Brigadier Mzimela.
	Mrs Mbuyasi was or she is a member of the IFP Central Committee, while at the same time she is in the Womens' Brigade of the IFP.
	Also she is occupying a top position in the IFP at eSikahwini.  She is also a teacher, I do not hesitate about that.
	Let us now refer to M.R. Mkhize.  M.R. Mkhize is the one in charge of the IFP office at Empangeni.  Zweli Dhlamini was the one who was a body guard, that is M.R. Mkhize's body guard at Empangeni.
	Lastly Mthetwa, Joyful Mthetwa is also a Caprivian.  He resides in Nseleni.  Nseleni is known to be an IFP stronghold.  Any UDF member does not even get astray into that area, because of the presence of Joyful at Nseleni.
	Therefore everything that I am saying about him, is as I have stated in the document, thank you very much.

MR HEWIT: Just one last proposition to you Mr Luthuli.  These people are all known to you, yes, and it is for that reason that you are using them to explain your deeds as being politically motivated.  I want to put to you, your deeds were not politically motivated.  Thank you.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me respond to that.  You should remember that the person responsible for everything that is happening here, is the President of the IFP, Dr M.G. Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, does that conclude your questioning of the witness?

MR HEWIT: Yes, I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

MR HEWIT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, just a very few questions.  Mr Luthuli, the other Caprivians, they would only act when instructed by yourself or ordered by yourself, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.  But not all the time.  I will just mention that where I had placed them or deployed them, they would receive orders from the people that they were working for.
	I mean under the local leadership, I wouldn't be there, but it also happened at times that I was directly involved with them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If a member acts out of his own interest, not being directed say by yourself or by the local leadership, he will be doing that by himself and not implicating your structure, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is possible.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you would not be held responsible for that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wouldn't say so because it was not common that a person would act outside our mandate.  I would always find out if that happened.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want you to turn over to page 354.  We will borrow you our copy, it is faster than your copy, page 354.
	That is Khumalo's application.  I want you to have a look at paragraph 38 under Nature and Particulars, the third line I will read for you for convenience.
	At that time I had never met Yamile in person.  Mhlanduna told us that whoever was interested in those guard duties, must await the arrival of Yamile who was to come and fetch those interested.  Myself and the following persons were interested.  I have more interest in the word "interested", what is your comment on that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that at this time it could have happened that the people that I had wanted, I could not find, therefore I could have asked that any other person who might have been interested in going to Claremont, could go.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would this statement not therefore mean that since Khumalo acted out of him having interest in the matter, there was no order or instruction from yourself, for him to go there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I will say that according to our disciplinary procedures, he wouldn't refuse after having heard that people were required to go to a certain place, because at that time we required manpower to go to Claremont.
	The people I had taken with me personally, were too few.  Yamile himself went to Ulundi to fetch more and M.Z. Khumalo brought some more in a kombi, that was driven by Buthelezi.
	It could have happened.

UNKNOWN: Are you still on that point Mr Mpshe because I just need some clarification from Mr Luthuli.  Are you saying by your explanation that if Mr Khumalo had indicated that he was not interested to come to Mr Yamile's place, then he would have been able to simply say to you I am not interested and therefore I am not coming, and that would have been the end of the matter?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It wouldn't have happened, and he also knew that if such an instruction  had arrived,  he couldn't say that he was not interested.  Unless, if maybe there was a death in the family, maybe another strong reason why he couldn't go in that instance, then he would be left alone, but he couldn't just refuse and say that he wasn't interested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be wrong Mr Luthuli, if I say that normally when, normally you would expect some form of thank you after having carried out an operation, not a payment but something to say thanks for the job well done?  That was normal, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As in the case of Yamile, that is what happened.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then you tell me then, if you normally expected that, that you could even think of it before even carrying out an operation?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: You wouldn't even dream of it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which takes me back to the question put to you by my learned friend, Adv Hewit, that you were actually being paid by Yamile for the work well done and Khumalo was also paid for the work well done, he was given an amount of R100-00 and this was a payment actually for the job because you expected it to be done at the end of the day, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say, no, that was not so.  It is something that came from him, I cannot explain how it came about, but it was not within the planning that after killing Zazi I would give you so much money, it just happened.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But we are agreed, all the same, that even before carrying out an operation, you would expect some thank you in the form of money?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I thought that is what you said to my question right at the beginning?