Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chair you have not had theopportunity to hear Brigadier Victor's point of view.  I havehad conversations with Brigadier Victor who has a different version. I must say to you that as I know these two persons or insofaras I know them both of these were people who through the courseof their career were exposed to every manner of violence, whohad served in Zimbabwe and Namibia over an extended period oftime working under very difficult circumstances, who really caredabout their work, this is Brigadier Cronje and Victor, both ofwhom were persons willing to put their lives at risk to carryout their tasks.   These two people's whole world existed outof their work.  Their work encompassed their entire lives.  Ican understand that if Brigadier Victor and Brigadier Cronje weregiven instructions to stabilise and secure their areas regardlessof the particular wording of the instruction one might expectthat it might have meant that one has to pay back the enemy intheir own coinage then indeed that would have been the way inwhich they would have acted, and that there would have been noquestions asked.  In view of the circumstances they would nothave asked questions.  These people know each other well, werethey to phone one another and say that things are falling apartyou have to really act now, then he would not have said that Iget this instruction who was second in command of counter insurgence,should or should I not carry out, this is not the kind of personthat Brigadier Cronje was.  He would simply have acted what he
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thought was required of him when such instructions were given.

MR DU PLESSIS: General in this area did you talk abouta total war in police circles?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Yes in fact I think there waswar book, that is how it was known in which certain of the strategieswere explained.  In official documents we spoke of an undeclaredor in normal circumstances it was considered to be a war situation. He says here that there was a change to active full scale war,there was never any such an instruction.  Again one has to understandwhat the ordinary officer's perception would have been of thevarious different steps and strategies and statements and theemotions surrounding them.  There had never been, from the StateSecurity Council, or from the Department any such a statementthat this was going to be a military war and I've emphasised thistime and again, but it is no doubt that in practice it was saidin police circles that this was a war situation.

MR DU PLESSIS: Had there ever been from the side of thegovernment an effort to counter this perception, to say to peoplethat this was not a war?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chair, no, I would rather saythat were one to listen to the ordinary officer who had to dealwith these circumstances then his impression had indeed been thatit was a war.  I could hardly think of a single instance wherethere was an effort to counter this perception from the side ofgovernment.

MR DU PLESSIS: General with regard to any actions byBrigadier Cronje did you repudiate any of his actions?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: No I never had reason to do so.
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MR DU PLESSIS: General let me ask you this question,if a security police officer, let's call this almost a soldier,someone like Brigadier Cronje, I just want to get this quite clearly,would he have accepted that such an instruction from BrigadierVictor would have come from a higher authority and therefore thatit would have been an instruction that he had to carry out?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chair it is very difficultto give a very clear answer, it might have been possible.  AsI know these two persons it is also possible that Brigadier Cronjecould have deduced from Brigadier Victor's point of view thatit was now required of him to act without any further considerationwhile his area was going up in flames.  It might have been possiblethat he had thought that this instruction would have carried theapproval of a higher authority especially in view of the factthat Brigadier Victor who had close links with higher authoritieshad made this statement, this would have given him an indicationthat that was the case.  It is unlikely that Brigadier Victorwould have given such an instruction without higher authority. No he never had the power or authority to give such an instruction.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could Brigadier Cronje ask Brigadier Victorwhat the source of this instruction had been?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: He might well have asked or hewould have been allowed to ask.   But if one were to look at thecharacter of these two persons I could hardly imagine that someonelike Brigadier Jack Cronje under the circumstances and in theface of such an instruction against his background and experiencethat he would have asked any questions, thereby giving the impressionthat he was not
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entirely willing to act in this way without some protection. He was not the kind of person who would have shied away from thiskind of action under these circumstances.  Someone else mightwell have.  But against his background I don't think that in hiscase, he would ever have thought of asking such a question.

MR DU PLESSIS: General van der Merwe Brigadier Cronjewill further give testimony that his view of the legitimacy ofhis actions and his view of the fact that he was in a full-scalewar and that he had to act in a preventative and pro-active wayrather than a reactionary way that this was strengthened by anumber of instances.
 The first such occurrence, and I want to state it now to youwas that with the event ...(indistinct), the elimination of theANC activists you will remember this incident, these were theactivists who were going for military training outside the countrywho were eliminated, placed in a mini-bus and then blown up, afterthis incident Brigadier Cronje will give testimony in this regard,Brigadier Victor phoned him and congratulated him with this particularoperation, could you comment in this regard?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I cannot comment on the correctnessof this testimony but if it had happened I would agree that suchan impression might have been strengthened.

MR DU PLESSIS: A further incident which I will stateto you and on which there will be testimony from Brigadier Cronjewas the fact that with regard to Zwele Myanda and Keith McFaddenin Swaziland, and exterior action, an action beyond the bordersof the country in which he was directly involved that he gaineda medal, was given a medal for the elimination of the ANC activists,which again strengthened
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his perceptions.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: It emphasises what I wanted tosay already that because of this kind of action our people wereconfused. The distinction between legitimate and illegitimateactions became more and more difficult and I would grant readilythat this would have been an incident that could have made a verystrong impression as you stated.

MR DU PLESSIS: There will be further testimony that thesetwo actions as well as the handgrenade action where the instructionwas right from the top that none of these actions were ever repudiatedfrom any higher authority, that this strengthened his perceptionthat his actions were under the instructions of higher authorityand that he had authority to act in this way.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: With regard to these incidentswhere very clearly there had been knowledge of at a higher level,with regard to these incidents yes I can say that this would havebeen the case.  It would require that a person would have beenrepudiated for actions not known at a higher level.  In thosecases where higher authority knew about these actions and in whichcase there was no repudiation, yes, that might be a fair conclusion,but in other cases where the actions were unknown at a higherlevel of course it would make no sense.