Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR TSOAMETSI: You see I did not really concern myself with that sticker, it did not worry me a single moment.

MR STANDER: You were working in that passage, surely its not nice to work in a passage which is known for its violence, while according to your own version you never followed that procedure in interrogations or even heard of anybody who did so.

MR TSOAMETSI: Mr Chairman, let me help you I was not working in the passage, I had an office but this is the passage I used to walk when I wanted access to my office.

ADV DE JAGER: Maybe like staying "Bloedstraat" for instance?

MR STANDER: I'm sorry I didn't hear your question.

ADV DE JAGER: I said, it may be like staying in "Bloedstraat" for instance, Blood Street?

MR STANDER: I am grateful for that.
	I want to put it to you that Violent Street was named as such as a result of most of the assaults that took place, either occurred in that passage or in the offices leading off that passage.

MR TSOAMETSI: I did not know, I was a warrant officer.  As a person I would never allow people to be assaulted in my presence.

MR STANDER: Tell me, is the office that you worked in was it sound proofed at any stage?

MR TSOAMETSI: What do you mean Sir, when you say it had sound absorbers?  What does that mean?

MR STANDER: What I mean is that if someone had been in the office, had been assaulted in the office had been screaming, that somebody outside the office could not have heard it.  That's what I mean by sound proof.

MR TSOAMETSI: I would hear Sir, I would be in a position to hear.

MR STANDER: The day when you were working there, did you hear any screams?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes, I would see then and I would even hear the sounds.

MR STANDER: You never employed or used that method to compel the detainees to talk, did you?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, we did not force them.

MR STANDER: Do you agree that to make somebody do physical exercises does not necessarily boil down to assault?

MR TSOAMETSI: You're right.

MR STANDER: And there is no method that it can be linked to the person who gave the instruction?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR STANDER: You say it was a method of interrogation to make people do physical exercises?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR STANDER: Would it help in persuading people to co-operate?

MR TSOAMETSI: No. Only the cell.

MR STANDER: Did you know Mr White Mohape?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes Sir.

MR STANDER: Did he have a file?

MR TSOAMETSI: I believe so.

MR STANDER: Did you see when he was brought in time and again for questioning or interrogation?

MR TSOAMETSI: When I was present I would see when he was brought in.

MR STANDER: Let me rather leave that question.  I want to put it to you Mr Tsoametsi, that on that day you did participate in the assault on the group of 19 persons.

MR TSOAMETSI: That is not so.

MR STANDER: I want to put it to you further that the reason why you are denying it today is because you know that you yourself, that you can possibly incriminate yourself because you have not applied for amnesty in this regard.

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, that is not so.  I'm telling you that every black man you was there worked with a white person so we'd not ask one - we'd not interrogate one person, the four of us.

MR STANDER: I thank you, I have no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I have been going through the bundle A, the evidence and it appears that it does not contain the evidence in chief of Mr Ngo in this aspect and I intend relying on the record in cross examining this witness.
     Now we are also generally not ready on other aspects to cross-examine this witness and we ask that his cross examination stand down until tomorrow. Hopefully by then we'll have found a copy of Mr Ngo's evidence in chief.
    Are you looking at bundle A, Mr Chairman?  You know if you look at the page 126, that is the end of Mr Venter and at page 128 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, 128 is the hearing on the 25th of May.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  There I continue saying - as the Chair please Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to the Committee for the indulgence granted to me earlier on. We are now going to proceed with the evidence of Mr Ngo.
"Mr Ngo, we had come to the point where I indicated that we had completed the evidence on Mr Mohapi's abduction, iss there anything you'd like to add regarding Mr Mohapi to the particulars"?
		"The evidence I gave, that's sufficient".
Now, there is 127 is blank and don't who whether it constituted the entire evidence in chief of Mr Ngo on Mohapi.

ADV DE JAGER: But at the end of 126 the Committee adjourns till 8 o'clock the next morning.

ADV MEMANI: The point I'm making is that before then we are dealing with Mr Venter only and there's nothing on Mr Mohapi.

MR VISSER: If I may assist, Mr Chairman, bundle - the record A2, which you refer to as A2 at page 29, Mr Chairman.  It's slightly below the middle of the page and it runs on to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, I don't know how far it runs on, but that's White Mohape.

CHAIRPERSON: That's on the 14th of May?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I apparently there are some exhibits we do not have. If you're looking - If it forms part of - does it form part of bundle A?

CHAIRPERSON: A2.

ADV MEMANI: That's a document which we do not have, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How could it come about that everybody else apparently has this document and you haven't?

ADV MEMANI: It has happened quite often, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't your attorney supposed to be responsible for obtaining the documents and briefing you with them?

ADV MEMANI: I think, Mr Chairman, we can get what gets passed on to us.  From time to time we get suprised to find that our learned friends are referring to documents which we have not been favoured ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But this is not a document, this is a copy of the record.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Why doesn't your attorney obtain it for you?

ADV MEMANI: Well, Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't he obtain it for you?

ADV MEMANI: I don't think he's even aware of its existence, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I find that hard to believe.  He knows that there was a record been kept of each day's proceedings.

ADV MEMANI: What we have in the form of a record of proceedings Mr Chairman, is what is contained in bundle A.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the reason why there is, is it A2 or whatever, which is supposed to be part of the record contained in bundle A, I think there was something wrong with the record as compiled in Exhibit A, particularly towards its end or from the middle.
    And I think that is why that extra package was introduced. It may be that you like some of us, you remained with the imperfect bundle A, which is imperfect somewhere from the middle or towards the end.
    They could not coincide, I do recall, I may be wrong, but I do recall that Visser came with a copy which was not entirely in harmony with what we had been furnished, the transcript that we had been furnished, I think that could explain the inconsistency.
    But I don't think that there were enough copies made available of the portion that was brought by Mr Visser.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you want an adjournment until tomorrow morning?

ADV MEMANI: A standing down of the witness, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you carry on with someone else Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Mr Miningwa has arrived and his cross-examination can now be completed, with your leave.
	Mr Tsoametsi, you're excused. Mr Tsoametsi, you're excused until later.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted to the Chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Miningwa you're still under oath.

MR MININGWA: (s.u.o.)