Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

CHAIRPERSON: Good Afternoon.  We want to start the proceedings.  Can I - before we get into that, just indicate that we are starting later than usual this morning, due to a number of problems that had arisen in regard to the matter that is on the roll for today.  The staff have endeavoured to attend to these, some have been resolved, others have not, but all of that has taken a bit more time than we anticipated and we apologise for the delay in starting.
	Just for the record it is Tuesday the 2nd of May 2000, it's the sitting of the Amnesty Committee held at White River, Mpumalanga Province.  The Panel is presided over by myself, my name is Denzil Potgieter.  I am assisted by Adv Sandi and Mr Sibanyoni.  The matter that we have before us is the application of Nyanda and two others.  The Amnesty Reference numbers, the Nyanda application is AM6231/97, the second one is Shoke AM5303/97 and the third one is Mkhonto AM5304/97.
	We'll first just record the appearances.  Mr Berger for the applicants.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Adv Berger.  I appear for the three applicants, Gen Nyanda, Gen Shoke and Sgt-Maj Mkhonto.  I'm instructed by the firm Nichols Cambanis and Associates and my instructing attorney is Ms Chrystal Cambanis.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Berger.  The Leader of Evidence?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Mtanga.  Ms Mtanga, perhaps you can indicate to us, what is the state of this application?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will refer to the Committee to page 3 of our bundle, which is Annexure A, where the list of victims is given.  These are the victims involved in the incidents that the three applicants are applying for.  Summonses have been served on these individuals and I would state exactly what happened in each case.
	With regard to the Ross family, we received report that they have since moved to Botswana and in that information it was not indicated where they are in Botswana, so we could not get their exact whereabouts.
	Then on the second victim, Mrs van Tonder, of Pretoria, we have an address in Pretoria and we were informed that she has since relocated, or moved from that address and didn't receive a forwarding address for her.
	And then we have an incident involving three policemen, Const Lundela, Const Mavunza and Sgt Rossouw.  Out of those three, only one has been located, that is Sgt Rossouw.  He received his notice on the 19th of April and today we received a fax from his attorney, Mr Schutte of Pretoria, indicating that they will not be able to attend the hearing on the grounds that that notification was on short notice and they haven't had ample time to prepare for this  and therefore they object to the hearing continuing.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been in contact with Mr Schutte?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Sir, I have.  I was talking to Mr Schutte.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he, what is his whereabouts?

MS MTANGA: At the time I spoke to him, he was on his way to Pretoria for another meeting that he will be appearing in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have a letter or fax, copy of fax from Coetzee, ...(indistinct) and Schutte.

MS MTANGA: Yes, that's the fax I'm referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: It is dated today's date.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It relates to their client, Sgt Albertus Rossouw and the applicant Dick Mkhonto, is that the one that you're referring to?

MS MTANGA: That is the one, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that received?

MS MTANGA: We received it today, it was faxed today, as the date indicates on the letter itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And from your discussion with Mr Schutte, he's aware that this application is on the roll for hearing today?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the interested party, Sgt Albertus Rossouw, is he present?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, he has not attended.

CHAIRPERSON: And the notice was served on him?

MS MTANGA: Yes, he is the person who instructed the attorneys upon receipt of our notice.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly, does Mr Schutte hold the view that his client was given insufficient notice and therefore he is not present and therefore they're not able to deal with the matter?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson and they object to the hearing continuing on those grounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is there anything else in regard to this particular matter?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, and then we have victims, the Msivi family and the Motsa family and Sithole who all were in one incident, the incident at ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so that's a different matter?

MS MTANGA: It's a different matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS MTANGA: The next of kin of the Msivi family and Mr Sithole is Ephraim Msivi, the address we have of Mr Msivi is where he worked at the Diepgesit mine, in Barberton.  We have been informed by the mine that he no longer works there and they don't have a forwarding address, that is his forwarding address and therefore he, I would say, did not receive the notification for this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: You were unable to locate him?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that this, the Msivi incident, is one of the incidents that the applicants are applying for?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and ...

MS MTANGA: And then the second victim who ought to have been notified is William Motsa, he was injured in the very same incident.  We have received information that he is at the mine, but he was not notified.  He's still working at the Diepgesit mine, but he did not receive notification.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any particular difficulty in regard to notifying him?

MS MTANGA: The difficulty explained by the person delivering the notices was that the mine could not be reached by an ordinary vehicle, so he had a bakkie and it seems there was a miscommunication or poor communication between this person and the office, because in his report he had included that the mine could be reached by telephone and therefore contacts this Mr Motsa telephonically and this was not done.

CHAIRPERSON: The person who attempted to serve the notification, is that a member of our staff?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, he's a member of the Witness Protection Unit, I know him by his first name, Koos.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that his attempt to serve was aborted and he notified the office accordingly?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But nothing further was done.

MS MTANGA: Was done by the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Has any contact been established with, is it Mr Motsa?

MS MTANGA: Subsequent to all of this, Chairperson, the mine was called and we discovered that he's still there and we spoke to a Mr Kambule, who indicated that Mr Motsa works shifts and he'll only be working the night shift tonight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is there anything else in regard to the preliminary issues?

MS MTANGA: The only thing I can mention Chairperson is that we also made last attempts for Radio Igwalagwala and Barberton Radio to still make an announcement to both Mr Msivi and Mr Motsa, notifying them that the hearing is going on today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now from your perspective where does all of this leave us?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, with regard to Mr Motsa, I would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you answer that, when were the applicants notified of this hearing?

MS MTANGA: When were they notified?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the applicants.

MS MTANGA: I'll just check my file, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MS MTANGA: Thanks Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps I can assist.  We were telephonically informed on the 25th of February this year.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: That today would be the day.

CHAIRPERSON: 25th of February.  Do you confirm that, Ms Mtanga?