Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR DLAMINI: Chair, I said that I knew Kay as a person who owned taxi's.  It could be that there might have been a mistake in the translation, but I knew Kay as a person who owned taxi's.  But it could be that because of the long elapsing of time, the person may have written "war-lord", but I did not say that.

MR HEWITT: Are you now saying that you affidavit where it describes him as a war-lord, which on your own definition is a criminal in business, is wrong - the person who wrote the affidavit out wrote it incorrectly for you?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR HEWITT: Did you read the affidavit before you signed it?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I read it.

MR HEWITT: You see I have another difficulty with your affidavit where it relates to the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and it is this, is that nowhere in your description in the affidavit over the killings, the fighting involved in that incident, do you refer to it as being a fight between the IFP and the UDF.  Can you explain that omission from your affidavit?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, perhaps the witness's attention should be drawn to the 3rd sentence in paragraph 30.  I know that he doesn't read English well.  It doesn't refer to specifically what my learned friend has referred to, the IFP and the ANC, it refers to areas.

MR HEWITT: Well then my learned friend's objection, with respect, is ill-founded.  My question is quite legitimate, with respect Mr Chairman, and I would like an answer from this witness as to why there's no reference whatsoever in the description of the incidents under the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident of fighting between the UDF and the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you'll answer the question Mr Dlamini.  I'll just point out to you that in the affidavit you did make mention of the fact that the Woody Glen area was an Inkatha area, but you make no mention of the conflict that was taking place in either the Woody Glen or Injubakazi as being specifically related to conflict between the two political factions, namely UDF on the one hand, and Inkatha on the other.  Mr Hewitt wants to know why didn't you make mention of that in your affidavit.

MR DLAMINI: I think that the person who wrote this did not actually include what I'm saying.  What I would like to say Sir, is that there was a lot of activities that went around when we were writing the statements, so mistaken may have been committed.

MR HEWITT: You see I just want to explain to you why I'm asking you these questions now so you understand.  In Durban when Mr Lethal, Mudla Induna as you call him, gave evidence.  It emerged that payment was received by himself and others for assisting a businessman in killing an opponent, and if I'm not mistaken Mr Chairman, it was in the Clermont area.  Now what I want to suggest to you, is that the probability is that your instruction from Mr Lethal, this time, was to merely rid another businessman of his opponent.   What do you say about that, as a probability?   The businessman this time being one from the Woody Glen/Injubakazi area named Kay.  What's your comment on that?

MR DLAMINI: I would say that is not correct.  I mentioned that Injubakazi was a UDF stronghold, therefore we went there to attack the UDF area.  The taxi business had no role to play in this incident.  It must be remembered that Kay is an IFP member, besides the fact that he owns taxi's.  He went to Mudla Induna to request assistance on the basis that he was an IFP member, not that he was going to pay - I have never received payment for killing anyone.

MR HEWITT: So what you're saying is that the two mistakes, the one omission and the one incorrect reference to war-lord in your affidavit, gives one the wrong impression about what this fighting was about, is that what you're saying to me - but that's because of mistakes of the person who took your affidavit, not through you?  Is that correct, have I summarised your evidence correctly now?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's what I was saying.

MR HEWITT: Thank you Mr Chairman I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hewitt, with due respect, I do not agree with your understanding of that paragraph.

MR HEWITT: Well that's probably really a matter for argument then at the ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, because if I can just refer to the words which have been used in that paragraph, there is a reference to the words "faction fights" between the residents of Woody Glen and residents of Injubakazi, and there is also a reference to "area indifferences".  Then there is a reference to a policeman known as Mkupuleni Kumede who had left the Woody Glen - who had left the Injubakazi area precisely because of the conflict and had gone to stay at Woody Glen which was an Inkatha area.  So I think there was this conflict, the way I read it.

MR HEWITT: No, I am mindful of those paragraphs.  I think the issue Madam Committee Member, is what the reason for the conflict was.  I know there are those references to - it's obviously a typing error where it says "area indifferences", it obviously is "area differences", and there clearly is the reference to "faction fighting".  I think what the issue is, and which obviously is more suitably dealt with at argument level, is what the probabilities are arising out of omissions to deal with a reference to the political divides in the area, and descriptions of certain people sitting at - wanting assistance by virtue of their occupation which has been described here.  I think that's the issue.  I am mindful of those issues, that's why I confined my questions to this witness in fairness to him, to an absence of a reference between IFP and an absence of a reference to UDF involved in the clashes.

CHAIRPERSON: It can be raised at an argument.  Thank you Mr Hewitt.  Mr Dladla do you have any questions?

MR DLADLA: Yes one question Mr Chairperson.  Mr Dlamini, before you attacked the Mpafana's house, did you know whether there were people in that house or not - just before you attacked?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I did know.

MR DLADLA: And you told this Committee that before - during the attack you heard people screaming from inside the house, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR DLADLA: I'm interested to know whether those screams were from - were those people women or children or - can you describe ...(inaudible)

MR DLAMINI: It was a mixture, there were women and men, old people and young children.

MR DLADLA: So there were children and women in that house, that's what you are telling this Committee?

MR DLAMINI: I did mention that it was a UDF stronghold, and women would sometimes be present.

MR DLADLA: Even children?

MR DLAMINI: No, no children.

MR DLADLA: Pardon Mr Dlamini, you've just said that there were also screams of - children were also crying inside that house, did I hear you correct or not?

MR DLAMINI: Children could not remain at a camp, that's why I am saying they were not there.  But young men were there.

MR DLADLA: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DLADLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Stewart do you have any re-examination?

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Khampepe do you have any questions?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have ...(inaudible)  I only have two questions Chairperson.  As a result of your responses to Mr Hewitt's cross-examination with regard to the inclusion of the word "war-lord", taxi war-lord, when reference was made to Kay, what I want to find out is, would it have mattered to you whether Kay was a war-lord or not if Lethuli who was then your commandeering ...(indistinct) had given you instructions to assist Kay?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, Kay, I helped him as a member of - an IFP member, not as a war-lord, not as a taxi war-lord.  No it's not like that at all.