Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JIMMY MBANE: The only thing I knew is that they might be deployed all over the area.  I expect that.

MR BOOYENS: You expected that.  You weren't told that they would be deployed all over the area.

JIMMY MBANE: I knew that it was going to be like that.
	I saw our kombi there and I just told myself that they must be all over the place.

MR BOOYENS: Were you not told to try and keep these people in the kombi and ride into the crossing and that they would overwhelm you there and the rest of the people?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they told me that.  But when decisions were taken at the last minute, what was I expected to do?

MR BOOYENS: So Bellingan's instructions to you were keep the whole group in the kombi, we want to arrest them there while everybody is in the kombi before a fire fight starts.  That's what he wanted.  You couldn't control it because the situation got out of hand.  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: The last minute arrangements of hiding the firearms were done by the whole group and they knew the area more than me and they decided on the dropping points as well.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, just listen to my question.
	Bellingan instructed you that you must try and keep all these people in the kombi into the intersection so that they can be arrested there.  That's what he wanted you to do.  Is that right?  Let's take it bit by bit.

JIMMY MBANE: He never mentioned any arrests.  I don't remember that.  He just said...did he say that I must keep them in the kombi so that he can arrest them?

MR BOOYENS: Well, did he tell you to try and keep them all in the kombi until you were in the intersection?

ADV J MOSES: I must say I don't know how the interpretation is, but at first I thought my learned colleague was making a statement, was putting it as a statement of fact to the witness.  Those were Bellingan's instructions.
	Now it seems that it was thereafter transformed into a question.  I have heard now out of the translation that the witness has now even picked that up also and asked him whether that was in fact a statement or a question.
	Perhaps he could just be clear as to whether those were his instructions, and whether those instructions were given as a fact.  For clarity's sake.

MR BOOYENS;: Perhaps my learned friend shouldn't try and take over my cross examination my Lord.

ADV J MOSES: If the cross examination is clear, my Lord.  If it's not clear, it's my legal duty to try to protect the witness.

MR BOOYENS: Did Bellingan tell you that you must try to keep the people in the kombi.  All of them.?

JIMMY MBANE: He said so.  He said you must try.  He did not instruct me.  He said I must try.  There's a difference between saying "try".  He did not instruct me.  I don't know whether that will fulfil your answer.

MR BOOYENS: No, that's fine.  Because that's exactly what Bellingan said.  He said that he said you must try and keep the people together.
	But you couldn't do it.  You had a practical problem with that.  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, at the scene, you off loaded Maluleka and who first?  The two that were supposed to go and pick up the AK's.

JIMMY MBANE: And one other boy, I don't remember his name.

MR BOOYENS: How far from the spot where the AK's were kept did you drop them off?

JIMMY MBANE: It might have been 250 metres away.

MR BOOYENS: Why drop them so far from the weapons?

JIMMY MBANE: That was according to the plan.

MR BOOYENS: But that's illogical.  You were one of the commanders of this operation. Why drop them so far?

JIMMY MBANE: It is because you were not there during our planning session.  I am telling you that's the decision that we took there.  I hope that suffices.

MR BOOYENS: It doesn't.  It's illogical.  Why was it planned that way?

JIMMY MBANE: We decided on that as a group.

MR BOOYENS: That you are going to let them walk 250 paces to go and pick up their arms when they were going to ambush the police kombi.

JIMMY MBANE: That was our decision.

CHAIRPERSON: It's by no means clear, Mr Booyens, whether this 250 yards was 250 yards along the road or 250 yards into the bush.

MR BOOYENS: Point taken my Lord.  I'll clear that up.
	The place where the firearms were buried, was it next to the road?

JIMMY MBANE: It was in the bush.  And they were going to walk into the bush and the spot we were going to attack was 250 metres away from that point.
	If you say that I dropped them far, where would you suggest I drop them?

MR BOOYENS: How far was the point where the arms were buried from the road?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't remember clearly.  Maybe if I can see the area, I can remember.  I know now that it's built up.

MR BOOYENS: Was it close to the road, that's all I want to know.

JIMMY MBANE: It was right inside the bush and they had to use the shortest route, because they knew that area.  That is the first group, they knew where to find them.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.  You thereafter proceeded and dropped the next group of people in the direction of the bridge and you made a u-turn at the bridge.  Is that correct.

JIMMY MBANE: I dropped the other three.  When you say on the bridge, I am pretty confused.  I say I dropped the first lot and then I dropped the other three 100 metres away and then I dropped another one and the remaining three went to make a u-turn and when we came around there was already firing.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.  The first sound you heard was the sound like the explosion of a hand grenade.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it sounded like a grenade explosion.

MR BOOYENS: Thereafter did you hear firing?

JIMMY MBANE: Thereafter there was other firing.

MR BOOYENS: Gun fire?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then proceed into the intersection?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I went on the pavement and I jumped out the car and when I attempted to run I heard some shots and laid flat on my tummy.

MR BOOYENS: No, but did you hit the pavement in the intersection, in the crossing or close to the crossing?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, very near to it.

MR BOOYENS: And you then heard gun fire?

JIMMY MBANE: That's what I said.

MR BOOYENS: You took cover.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right, I took cover.

MR BOOYENS: Inside the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: I said to you I hit the pavement and jumped out the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, how far from the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: It was hardly 10 metres from the kombi, 7 to 10 metres away from the kombi it might have been.

MR BOOYENS: No right.  At that stage there were still two people inside the kombi.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I jumped off first, then Rasta followed because I was driving and the one who was inside because he was sitting in the middle and didn't have enough chance to jump off because there was too much firing.

MR BOOYENS: And  you say this man was shot by Bellingan.  Or you heard a shot in the kombi.

JIMMY MBANE: As I was taking cover because I was near the car and I know a fire ringing.  I heard this fire, the shot ringing in the car.  As I was trying to run I heard some shots ringing and I took cover, but I heard Belletjies saying: "Don't shoot the tall man.  He is one of us".  I am not sure whether you understand Afrikaans.  This is what he said.
	And then I heard a fire ringing in the car, and I saw Belletjies grabbing this man and then he hit him with a shot.  I was watching it when I ran away.

MR BOOYENS: Let's just deal first with the shooting inside the kombi.
	Who fired the shot that you heard inside the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Belletjies.  Because he had just called out don't shoot the tall man.  He is the one who shot inside the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: So he first shouted don't shoot the tall man and then he fired a shot into the kombi.