Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

EMMA NICHOLSON: First, he found his way behind the locked doors because experts of Kenneth Kaunda when he was still President in early 1991 had received a telephone call from Oliver Tambo who as I understand headed the ANC in Zambia at that time, saying that this particular young man was one of the many who Kenneth Kaunda had been invited to look after who was in trouble with the Movement and would lose his life if he remained in South Africa.
 Kenneth Kaunda had made an arrangement earlier that he would absorb these people and keep them out of harms way. He stated in prison so long because unfortunately his case was no ordinary case, in terms of the difficulties it gave to myself and . . . (indistinct) in finding him a placement. 
 In 1993 he became a UNHCR Refugee.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you just, those initials, does it stand for the United Nations

EMMA NICHOLSON: The United High Commissioner for Refugees headed then by Mrs . . . (indistinct). May I say the unusualness of this case is demonstrated by the fact that I immediately approached the United Kingdom for settlement because I believe it is a significant abuse of human rights to have someone imprisoned in another country without a trial. That should be addressed by any human rights activist.
 The United Kingdom said no. I then approached Denmark and I gained the assistance of the UNHCR in approaching Denmark at well and Denmark gave a unique, I understand decision, it refused Mr Cebukhulu although he would have fallen inside the UNHCR quota for that year. 
 We then approached Sweden and incidentally the Danish file has got the politically sensitive parts which is most of it blotted out. We then approached Sweden who said no and when I asked for the files, the Swedes asked for the files surprisingly that file is not available, it is also stored in secret.
 The USA said no, Canada said no, other European . . .(indistinct) in the Commonwealth said no. Other African Front-line States said no.

<UNKNOWN>: May I just interrupt over here, interrupt you, the reason why you had gone to these lengths in order to find a refuge for Mr Cebukhulu is because Mr Cebukhulu fears for his life if he returns to South Africa, is that correct?

EMMA NICHOLSON: It was not up to me to decide whether or not Mr Cebukhulu would return to South Africa, but it was clear that he did not wish to return to South Africa but I believe all of us have an obligation and a refugee conventions to assist refugees and loss of liberty for wrongful grounds is one of the first and most important items.

<UNKNOWN>: But the reason Mr Cebukhulu doesn't want to come back to South Africa is because he is afraid for his life.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes, and the reason that I was given why other countries would not take his was because there was validity to that claim which meant that the expense of the protection they would have to give him would be so large, because I was told that he had offended one part of the ANC. I was also given to believe by a number of diplomats of different nationalities that if I pressed this case openly and publicly, I would cause the fragility of the ANC in 1991, '92 and '93 to be under great stress and I would put back the cause of getting rid of apartheid. That was a cause to which I was fully committed.

<UNKNOWN>: At the present time the reluctance of all these countries to accept him as a refugee on your understanding is because he, Mr Katiza Cebukhulu has offended an element of the ANC.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes, and ex-President Kenneth Kaunda told me in June 1997 that it was not a problem for the President. This was for another part of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: The President being President Nelson Mandela?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes, that this was not a problem with the Head of the ANC and his people, it was a problem with another wing.

<UNKNOWN>: So your understanding is that there is a fraction in the ANC which has, which is able to influence these government agencies and has influenced these government agencies to the extent that they are not prepared to accept this man as a refugee. Is that correct?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes and to add to that if I may, that there was also this well founded fear I believe, very well founded fear indeed that in the . . . (indistinct) abolishing of the apartheid in those last few crucial years to take an act . . . (indistinct) publicly which would expose a part of the ANC as maybe not up to standard, not up to International Human Rights standards would be a very unhelpful thing to do politically and I speak now as a Politician.

<UNKNOWN>: Is there any other evidence you wish to give the Commission which you think would assist them in their task?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Thank you for giving me that opportunity. Yes. I would like to put on record that I and therefore Mr Cebukhulu who granted me this Power of Attorney in 1995 by which time the problem seemed almost insoluble made a . . . (indistinct) to have another go that I and therefore on his behalf, Mr Cebukhulu have made large efforts to co-operate with Justice system of the new South Africa as soon as the government took power.
 I wrote to Ministers, I offered to bring Mr Cebukhulu to South Africa to give evidence if that is what was required to make a statement, I requested that warrants for arrest were lifted to allow that to happen and I made extensive efforts even down to seeing South African Police myself when I had no obligation to do that. We have made very large efforts indeed and in that light I would like to say how grateful we are and I and I believe Mr Cebukhulu to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for allowing and enabling this evidence at last to be taken.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you. Finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. How about a stretch, it is only for two minutes.
BREAK IN RECORDING
Thank you.

MR VALLY: Arch, what we are going to do is Mr Piers Pigou is going to ask Mr Cebukhulu some questions and I will ask a few questions of Mrs Nicholson. So Piers Pigou will start off.

MR PIGOU: Mr Cebukhulu, you have said in your statement that you spent two and a half years at Winnie Mandela's house. Can you tell us whether that was a continuous period that you spent at the house.

<UNKNOWN>: I stayed there permanently. It was a continuous stay.

MR PIGOU: During the Section 29 in Camera hearing where Mrs Mandela in September and October she indicated to us when asked about your stay at the house that you never stayed at the house and then qualified it by saying that you may have been put up for one night, are . . .(indistinct) that in the light of what you have just answered to my first question that that is not an accurate reflection of what happened?

<UNKNOWN>: She is lying.

MR PIGOU: I just wanted to ask briefly about this book that has been recently published - Katiza's Journey and to ask you whether details which are attributed to yourself, quotations and so forth are to all and intense and purposes an accurate reflection of what you can remember, the events that took place at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

MR PIGOU: You stated in the book that you came to, I am sorry, you say in one of your affidavits of the three affidavits that Mr Joseph has been talking about that you came to stay at Mrs Mandela's house in either July or August of 1988. Now could you tell us which house that was, was it her house in Orlando or was it her house in Diepkloof.

<UNKNOWN>: I was living in Diepkloof.

MR PIGOU: Mrs Mandela's house was burned down in Orlando the end of July 1988 so you must have moved into the house in Diepkloof shortly after that incident. Could you tell me whether there was any talk amongst the other people living at the house about what had transpired, about the attack on Mrs Mandela's house in July 1988?

<UNKNOWN>: No.