Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

UNKNOWN: The name is Ms Z Nhlayisi.  Mr Chairman, my first application, it's application number AM7363 appearing on page 219.  The name of the applicant, it's Sakile Jethro Motjale.  Further Mr Chairperson I realise that the identity number was not inserted in the original application.  If I may supply same to you.  The identity number is 690516 5550 08 2.
	Mr Chairman the applicant is bringing an application for amnesty for the following.  It's attempted murder.  Possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition.  Malicious damage to property.  Kidnapping.  Assault.  And pointing a firearm.
	Further, before I proceed I wish to mention that in his application form he stated that he's applying for murder, and it turned out later that the victim did not die in this particular incident, hence the change to attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motjale what language would you prefer to use?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Zulu

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: (sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I'm sorry I missed out on the question a bit.  My position is that the victim is present.  My instructions is that the victim is not opposing the application for amnesty.  Now there's a few factual differences, but he's in principal not opposing the application.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Motjale, you were a member of the SDU's in Mlangeni section in Tokoza.  Is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: In which year did you join the SDU?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: 1993.

UNKNOWN: At that time, who was your commander?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It was Vusi.

UNKNOWN: Do you know his surname?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, I don't know his surname.

UNKNOWN: In your application form, or during our consultation, you stated that it's Vusi Malinga.  Is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You've applied for amnesty for the offences that I've mentioned before.  That is attempted murder of one person known to you as Gobani.  Is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And for malicious damage to property, possession of firearms and ammunition, kidnapping, assault, and pointing a firearm.  Is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: In your application form, on page 221, you mention that there's an incident where you tried to kill Gobani, and he escaped.  Could you briefly tell this Committee what happened on this particular day?  How this came about.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Our commander Vusi, told us that the people from Mlangeni street, are complaining that there's someone that they don't understand his motives.  That was Gobani.  He came to us, he told us that as SDU members.

UNKNOWN: Could you be clear and clarify what is it that your commander said that people could not understand about this particular person?  Just elaborate on that.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Gobani was person who used to be found at Penduka, that was IFP terrain at the time.

UNKNOWN: You're saying he used to be at Penduka, and him being at Penduka, what did it imply to you, as the members of the SDU's?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: That meant that he was an IFP member.

UNKNOWN: So what you're saying basically is that this Gobani was seen at Penduka, at the place were all the IFP members could have access.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.  Most of the time he would be at the taxi rank that is in Penduka.  He was queue marshall at the taxi rank.  Marshall, queue marshall, at the taxi rank.

UNKNOWN: It was confirmed by him being there that he was a member of the IFP?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow that.  Is it because he was a queue marshall that people though - Is that what would have made him a member of the IFP?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: The people were complaining about him because they knew that even at the taxi rank he was entreating people.  He was later found at Tokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: But how does the question of his IFP membership come out?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Vusi came, he told us that there was a person that was suspected in that street, in that particular street.  They said he was an IFP member and they didn't know what was it that he was looking for.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

UNKNOWN: How was it established that he was a member of the IFP, or how did you get this information that he was a member of the IFP?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We got that from our commander.  The community approached our commander, and they told our commander about this person that used to be seen in our street.

UNKNOWN: To clarify what you mentioned earlier about this Gobani being a queue marshall.  Where exactly was he a queue marshall?  Was it at Tokoza or some other place?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: That meant that he was an IFP member.

UNKNOWN: What you are saying basically is that this Qobani was seen at Penduka, at the place where only IFP members would have access, is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.  Most of the time, he would be at the taxi rank that is in Penduka.  He was a queue marshall at the taxi rank.

UNKNOWN: It was confirmed by him that he was a member of the IFP?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow that.  Is it because he was a queue marshall that people thought, is that what would have made him a member of the IFP?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: The people were complaining about him, because they knew that even at the taxi rank, he was ill-treating people.  He was later found at Tokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: How does the question of his IFP membership come up?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Vusi came, he told us that there was a person that was being suspected in that street, in that particular street.  They said he was an IFP member and they didn't know what was it that he was looking for.

UNKNOWN: ... establish that he was a member of the IFP or how did you get this information that he was a member of the IFP?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We got that from our Commander.  The community approached our Commander and they told our Commander about this person that used to be seen in our street.

UNKNOWN: ... mentioned earlier about this Qobani being a queue marshall.  Where exactly was he a queue marshall?  Was it at Tokoza or some other place, can you elaborate on that?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It was in Tokoza, Khumalo Street, at the taxi rank.  The taxi's that were using the Khumalo Street.

UNKNOWN: It has come during our consultation that during the period of violence, people who belonged to the IFP, used their own taxis and the rest of the community, used other taxis, so on which of these two taxis was he a queue marshall?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He was a queue marshall at the taxi rank at Khumalo Street.  That was before the violence in Tokoza.

UNKNOWN: During the violence, did he continue to work as a queue marshall at the taxi rank?  Do you know or you don't know about this?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, I don't know.

UNKNOWN: So you said you were given an instruction about this Qobani because it was said that he was an IFP member.  What exactly was the instruction from your Commander?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He told us to deal with this person, he told us to kill him because he was an IFP member, because even ourselves if we would be found in the IFP terrain, we would also be killed.

UNKNOWN: Where exactly were you going to get hold of this Qobani, where were you going to find him to carry out this instruction?