Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-26

MR LAX: Is your - before we go into your story just a brief picture of your family.

WITNESS:   I have five children.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... in your statement that you gave us those details, although there are only four names here.  Let me just go through it with you.  You have a son, Joel.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: A daughter, Rosina.

WITNESS:   You are right.

MR LAX: And then another son, Sabatha.

WITNESS:   Correct.

MR LAX: /Thabo.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... Thabo.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... child.

WITNESS:   The fifth one is at work.  He is already married.  I do not count him.  He is in Bloemfontein.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... name, just for the record.

WITNESS:   He is Nathaniel Nche.

MR LAX: Thank you very much.  The other four children are still dependent on you?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... at school?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are at school.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Is your husband still with you?

WITNESS:   He passed away in 1989.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Now, the story you're going to tell us is connected to the two stories we've already heard so far.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And as far as we can see the burning of your home took place on the same day as the first witness' home was burnt, which is the day after the funeral that they've spoken about.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: It will be helpful for us if you can try and give us a picture of how that conflict developed and what was the cause of that conflict, because the previous witnesses haven't been able to help us much in that regard.

WITNESS:   On a Sunday around 8 o'clock a certain yellow van appeared.  There were people who were inside my house.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... yellow van, was that a police van?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true, it's a police van.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... police station was that van?

WITNESS:  Rouxville Police Station.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

WITNESS:   There was a certain girl who was in the bedroom.  In the house you are able to see people.  Then this girl said, "Merozana, this house - your house is going to be burnt."  I said to her, "How do you see?"   Then she said, "I hear, and then I see the van outside, and inside there is Mr Mangese."  Whilst I was still in the lounge room I heard a petrol bomb inside the bedroom, and then again they threw a petrol bomb inside the sitting-room.  I was carrying a two-year child.  On the door the fire was now coming near me.  We ran away to next - after some time, whilst we were at my neighbour, this Rosina said to me, "We forgot the child inside the house."  A certain boy called Piet Magawu came with a container containing petrol.  At that time the comrades ran and were able to take the child outside the house.

MR LAX: What child was this that was left in the house?

WITNESS:   That's Sabatha.

MR LAX: Please continue.

WITNESS:   The certain boy called Piet Magawu brought petrol and poured it inside, and the comrades were able to run to take the child to the other neighbour.  Whilst we were still in the house, and the house was now in flames, Mr Mangese was now at the front of the door with other two boys.  When we ran outside the house he said, "Come here."  Then I asked Mr Mangese, I said, "What did we do to you because you have never seen me in front of your shop or in front of your house?"  The comrades were fighting that they should resign from being councillors.  Then they agreed, and the comrades said to them they have got to resign as councillors in our township.  That was the beginning of the conflict.  After this conflict had started, and my house was at the corner, and their wives were singing, passing through our streets.  They are saying, "We are Inkatha members and we kill."  Yes, it is true they would enter into the township, they would go inside the people's houses, and they will hit people with sjamboks and assault them.

MR LAX: You've said that Mr Mangese was there with two boys.  Which other boys were these?

WITNESS:   We don't know these boys.  He fetched them from Virginia.  He said - we learnt that when he went to Virginia he bribed them that they should come with him, and we knew that those two boys were comrades in Virginia.

MR LAX: Now, who else was present there?  Who was driving the police van?

WITNESS:   The driver of that police van was a certain white policeman called Tate.  Then Mangese said to him, "We should burn this house also."

MR LAX: What - do you know what Tate's rank was?  Was he a sergeant, was he a constable, was he a station commander?  What was he?

WITNESS:   He was a constable.

MR LAX: Was he a young man, an old man?

WITNESS:   He was still a young man.

MR LAX: Is he still there at Rouxville?

WITNESS:   After this arrest he left.

MR LAX: You don't know where he went to?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know.

MR LAX: Thank you.  You've said in your statement that you were threatened by Mangese with a firearm outside the house.

WITNESS:   That's true.

MR LAX: What sort of firearm was that?

WITNESS:   I would not be able to know or identify or describe because I was scared.  I think those were guns owned by the councillors.  They were given guns.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... the guns?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  Maybe they were given those guns at the police station, but all of them had guns.

MR LAX: So this conflict really started around the comrades wanting these councillors to resign from the council.

WITNESS:   That's true, Sir.

MR LAX: Why did they want them to resign?

WITNESS:   They were accepting everything.  When they will say, "Rent increase," or whatever, they would agree.  They were pressurised all the time.  They were not able to negotiate in a meeting.

MR LAX: So they weren't able to look after the township residents' interest as opposed to the administration interest, is that what you're saying?

WITNESS:   That's true, Sir.

MR LAX: The previous witness said they stopped functioning.  What exactly happened?  Did they finally resign?

WITNESS:   During the unrest they took time - they continued to work, but they didn't resign immediately.  Whilst they were shooting people they didn't resign then, they continued with their work and they had those guns.

MR LAX: Are you able to say how long this unrest continued for, who many months, or years?

WITNESS:   It didn't take years, it took a few months.

MR LAX: Three months, six months, how much?  Any idea?

WITNESS:  Maybe two months, but it was not a long time.  Maybe two months.

MR LAX: Now, the previous witnesses weren't really able to help us much except to say that one person who was the wife of a councillor got killed.  We find it strange that they should have just left their homes without some pressure being put on them.  Can you tell us maybe about how that came about?

WITNESS:   I am staying next to Delela, who was a councillor, but he was not involved in the violence, but the person who was involved in violence was his wife.

MR LAX: You're not really answering my question, and I am asking you to try and give me a picture of what sort of pressure was put on these councillors?  We've heard of the violence the councillors made against the comrades.  I am sure the comrades didn't just sit back and take it.  They must have fought back in some way.  It would be helpful to have some details of that.  As you know it always takes two hands to clap.

WITNESS:   I would not know that of what was happening.  I would not know.

MR LAX: We understand there's now peace in the township because there is no more IFP there.

WITNESS:   Yes, there is peace because we are able to talk to one another, but I will speak on my position.  I have peace, but when it comes to the loss of my property I have a bad effect because Mangese had destroyed my property.

MR LAX: Did you make a case against Mangese about this property?

WITNESS:   Yes, I did open a case.