Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you rely on the information that was obtained, or extracted under torture and use that as the only basis for arresting Farisani?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well there was nothing else that we could see or do other finding out from himself after hearing from these other people who were detained, other than taking Dr Farisani and hear from him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Have you had cause to go through with you legal representative on the evidence that was tendered by Mr Farisani amongst, others before the Human Rights Violations Committee, which is an annexure before the bundle that your legal representative must have.  Did he go through the evidence that was tendered by some of the suspects that you tortured when they gave evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I am quite sure they read all these things.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did they go through that evidence with you?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you for instance told Mr Farisani says amongst others, that you made him to do press-ups?  Were you told of that?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, I was told.  I did forget to mention that in my evidence, in my initial evidence, while I was quite aware that it use to take place in our offices.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You forgot to mention that in your evidence.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes. This is something that happened a long time ago.  After so many years it is easy for these things to be forgotten.  Well, it is just an omission, it does happen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You see you are being legally represented and they have explained to you an important requirement for amnesty, that you have to satisfy full disclosure.  I am quite aware that these things happened 18 years ago and it is for that reason that I wanted to find out if you were told of what the victims had said before another standing committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  Because what this process is about is to try and have a full picture of what happened.  In your case you've got to disclose precisely what you did and why you did it in order to qualify for amnesty.  Were you also told that Mr Farisani had said that you threw him up and made him to fall down onto the concrete cement?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I can't dispute that.  Yes, we tortured him extremely.  One will remember all these other things.  We did torture him extremely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, that the other means of torture that you applied was to dance up and down on his body while boxing him also in karate and, with karate or judo or....

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were made aware of all these things.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes. Well I was quite aware, again it was another serious omission and as I was explaining how I tortured him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that at one stage you clapped him until his eyes was visibly swollen?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well yes I did that, but anyway, I can't remember, I only realised on the following day - that he was swollen on the following day and I recall that it was myself who did it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there a time when you took him to Park station and there administered the wet bag method of torture and then applied electric shocks on his body?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes I did explain, even in my initial evidence that I did shock him electronically.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, I am talking about the electric shock that was administered in Park Station.  Do you know of that incident?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I am quite sure that when he personally Mr Dean talked about Park Station I think he is referring to the office in which we used to administer, because we didn't have a jurisdiction to go to Johannesburg.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You never took him to Johannesburg?

MR RAMALIGELA: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: There was also one thing which I wanted to have clarified.
	You have made reference to a certain date, the 10th of November 1981 and you say that, that was when Mr Ramushwana assumed office as a Commander of the investigating team.  Are you sure of that date?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  I can remember the date very well because I, you know it was just between two days, only two between then Mr Ramushwana came in.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, and by that time Mr Farisani had already been arrested, when Mr Ramushwana took over the command of the investigating team.

MR RAMALIGELA: By then he wasn't arrested yet.  He was only arrested thereafter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think it will assist us because Mr Ramushwana didn't know exactly when he assumed command.  	You have also testified that you used these various methods, and that Mr Ramushwana never came personally to be aware of them when you would hear him approaching you would then immediately stop whatever torture you were in the process of doing.  You remember?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes I remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now why did you stop, why wouldn't you want him to see how you were being effective in trying to extract information?

MR RAMALIGELA: What I didn't explain in this commission about you know our etiquette does not really allow one person  to assault the other person before one's senior.  Mr Ramushwana was my senior and it was not personally allowed,  I mean officially allowed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you were aware when you were administering all these methods of torture that they were being done without Mr Ramushwana's approval?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, we were not even supposed to tell him exactly - tell him how it was, but we could use our own discretion in using any object for anything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who told you that you could use a discretion when administering such methods when you knew your senior was not aware and would not approve of you using those methods?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well he personally, he had access to the President and then he will say to us: "Look, the President is really worried".  And he is saying "please use some other means".  But he couldn't say exactly how we could administer.  It was just my own discretion that this was how I could use that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But he never gave you any reason to believe that you could use the methods that you used.  He never gave you any reason for you to believe that you could use such methods.

MR RAMALIGELA: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you Chairperson.  	I didn't quite follow your reply to the one question.  You said "he would say please use some other methods or other means" apropos what did he say that?  What elicited that remark from him, when he said "please use some other means"?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well personally, I don't know exactly, because he couldn't say exactly, he just said just use some means to extract information.  He didn't say shock people or kick people of just you know, stand on top their bellies or whatever.

ADV BOSMAN: But what I don't follow is the use of the word "other means".  In other words there must have been some means which he was referring to.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well he wasn't clear.  He didn't tell us directly as to what to use.  Maybe he knew other methods.  But I don't remember him saying a particular method or prescribing another method.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand him when he said that -to be giving you the go-ahead to use, which Mr Meyer has referred to before as 'unconventional methods', that he would condone the use of methods that shouldn't be used, such as beating up people with hands and helicopter method, electric shock etc. etc?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I think it is difficult really to be answerable exactly.  I don't how, but I didn't him to realise that we were unconventional methods.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You have earlier on indicated quite clearly that the reason why you didn't want him to see you using those methods and that you would stop as soon you heard him approaching was because you knew he wouldn't approve of you using those methods.