Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

MR NTSOMI: Yes, I know the one who shot me because I was with him in Court - one of the policeman,  Mr Van der Merwe, he was the one who shot me and he had two witnesses, Constables [indistinct]  and Brink.  They were three against one which is me, so I know them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Were they the only three who were [intervention]

MR NTSOMI: There was only one who shot me but the other two were witnesses to him against me but the one who shot me was Van der Merwe.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Can you still remember what you were doing at that time when they shot you?

MR NTSOMI: Yes, I do remember - it happened in a very short moment - I was from the loo by that time in this yard where I was shot in.  And the person who shot me - since the township was dark I couldn't identify the person but the only thing I can say is that by the time I was  from the loo I believe he was just next to the door and by the time I was turning to his direction he was just standing in the corner of the shack I was next to and he shot me.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Is the toilet in the backyard?

MR NTSOMI: Yes, it is in the back of this yard next to a shack.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: When did you realise that it was van der Merwe who shot you?

MR NTSOMI: I knew him at the court while the case was in progress then its where I identified him.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes it was found out that it was him, thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: [indistinct] Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Ntsomi, I just have some difficulty with the court cases.  Perhaps just a little bit more detail will be of some assistance to us.  The public violence charge, was that heard here in the Worcester - in the Worcester Magistrate's Court.

MR NTSOMI: I can't say yes, I can't even say no, it was -  I'll try to answer your question.  During that time it was a very difficult situation when someone did something to you or someone can witness something they were afraid to come forward.
The reason I am saying it that way its because in my situation even the Court - the court proceedings they took it like that the policemen did beat me.  There was only one argument that why did the police shoot me.  The reason of the shooting,  it all depends how bold that person could lay a charge and how did he put the statement and the lawyers who were assisting that person in that court case or that problem.  I don't know whether you are clear with what I am trying to say.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] to  what I want to hear from you, first of all you won that case,  you - you were found not guilty in that case - in the public violence case, is that right?

MR NTSOMI: I was found not guilty - I for one was not guilty in the court.

ADV POTGIETER: When you were charged [indistinct] were you the only accused?

MR NTSOMI: I was alone in my case.

ADV POTGIETER: And did the police give evidence in that case, did they come and tell the Court what happened?

MR NTSOMI: Yes, they did come and give evidence and witness.  It was me and my friend while the whole thing was happening there were two of us and three policemen against the two.  I also had a witness because I was not alone.

ADV POTGIETER: And [indistinct]

MR NTSOMI: Exactly what happened.

ADV POTGIETER: In which court was it - was it in the Regional Court or was it in the ordinary court?

MR NTSOMI: The Regional Court.

ADV POTGIETER: And can you still remember who the magistrate was that  heard the case?

MR NTSOMI: Yes, I do have the records, but there was a Magistrate - there was a famous Magistrate here in Worcester who used to sit in for these political cases in Worcester but I do have the records.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] in the regional court in Worcester,  you then got the lawyers to make a claim against the State in the Supreme Court in Cape Town?

MR NTSOMI: Yes, it's like that.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct - you say that you lost that case.

MR NTSOMI: Yes it's like that.

ADV POTGIETER: You say that you lost that case after having won that case in Worcester.

MR NTSOMI: Exactly.

ADV POTGIETER: Where you were accused of having committed public violence you lost the claim that you made?

MR NTSOMI: I don't know whether I am getting your question clear.  Ever since I was charged for the public violence  and other small cases that were connected to this, I was acquitted under this charge and then my lawyers claim - I lost the claim.
They made an appeal again and I lost the appeal.  I don't know whether I have answered your question clearly.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] did the lawyers explain to you why you lost the claim?  What did the Court say about the claim, why did you lose that?  Or didn't they explain to you?

MR NTSOMI: The lawyers, what I can remember from the lawyers is that they told me - I don't know from the Supreme Court what actually happened there but on the appeal case my lawyer said to me there were four judges who presided this case - three of them were against me and there was only one who was on my  side so that is why I lost the case.
They were looking at the proceedings of the previous charge or case,  so I believe that's how I lost the case and I accepted it that way.

ADV POTGIETER: The appeal [indistinct] in Bloemfontein?

MR NTSOMI: Yes it was at Bloemfontein.

ADV POTGIETER: Now in Cape Town in the Supreme Court did you speak there, you and your witness - did you give evidence?

MR NTSOMI: Yes, I did give the evidence there.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] in Worcester in the Magistrate's court they also gave evidence there in the Supreme Court in Cape Town?

MR NTSOMI: Van der Merwe was there, the one who shot me and one of them was mentioned - was  stated to have passed away so there were two of them from the police side and I was the only one on my side because my lawyer said there is no need for a witness.  So I have to stand alone with two of them against me.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] as you've explained to you are now faced with an account of 45,000 odd rand for the expenses of that claim.  Is there  - is there anything you feel the Commission would do - must do for you, in connection with the cases or generally.