Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Well for how long had you been a member of any right-wing organisation before that?

MAUREEN VENTER: I was not a member of any organisation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well how would Mr Taylor who apparently was in possession of stolen firearms, why would he have had - what would have led him to believe that at least your husband was worthy recipient of a firearm to be used for the "moontlike slagting wat voorle"?

MAUREEN VENTER: Mr Taylor did not hand over any weapon to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: To your husband?

MAUREEN VENTER: It's difficult for me to answer.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] asking questions of that kind to her, where does that get us?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I thought I'd made it clear in this original form Mr Chairman, what sort of circles did you and your husband move in at the time that this gun was handed over for that purpose by Mr Taylor?

MAUREEN VENTER: At that stage I was involved with my home, my family, my grandchildren and a business which was keeping us very occupied.  We were in the property business and that is what I was occupied with at that point in time.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you say that it is completely coincidental that you happened to be with Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis at the time that Mr Hani was murdered by Mr Walus?

MAUREEN VENTER: I said that Mr and Mrs Clive Derby-Lewis were at my home on an invitation which was sent by me because Mrs Derby-Lewis was making a delivery of goods which I had ordered from her.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you know how long after the request was made by Mr Derby-Lewis to your husband for this firearm, how long after the request was made, was the gun delivered?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any sort of urgency in delivering this gun?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did your husband do - or anything which indicated to you that this gun had to be delivered as soon as possible?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I have no questions Mr Chair thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mrs Venter, a question from Mr Bizos, if you could just look at this application form for Sportron, is this the application form which you filled out when you joined Sportron?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And on which date did you sign this application?

MAUREEN VENTER: The 19th March 1993.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I don't want to burden the records but it's available to be scrutinised, Mr Bizos - I don't know whether he's got a copy or not.  I don't know whether Mr Bizos wants a copy of it or whether he's got a copy?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Appearing for the family I don't know why I'm being always being addressed personally, Mr Chairman, but I don't know the document that is being referred to - I don't know what reference is being made.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I can hand it in as an exhibit, I've got sufficient copies available.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: I'll do that.  We refer to it as EXHIBIT AL Mr Chairman.  It's on the second page - is the form what is referred to but it refers to the old Sportron transaction pertaining to this witness.  Mrs Venter, if you look at page 3, are those the items which you ordered, just for the record?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And as it was delivered?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And that is the invoice on the last page?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I have in my possession a letter which was written by the instructing attorney, Mr Lubbe, on behalf of the firm Swart, Redlinghuys, Nel and Partners, it's with the Department of Justice in order to request the department to pay for the expenses of Mr Arthur Kemp, who is currently in England, to come and testify in this Committee and there is also the letter addressed to Mr Mpshe and in response to that the Department of Justice declined to grant permission or to pay for it.  I've only got the one, the original, available.  You don't need it do you?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, once the matter has been raised, is there a letter in which Mr Kemp said says that he is prepared to come to South Africa?

CHAIRPERSON: In that regard we certainly don't need that document Mr Bizos.  Yes, you may hand - unless you are going to formulate some argument crucial to your case you see, request that he be subpoenaed or that his expenses be paid, that request has been turned down we understand.  You place it on record, it will form part of the record when the record is transcribed.

MR PRINSLOO: ...[inaudible] the notice of the Committee - it's not the case that we are unwilling to call Mr Kemp as a witness, it's a matter of being impossible to get him here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we understand that.

MR PRINSLOO: Because of expenses.  Thank you Mr Chairman, it's understood that way?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses?

MR PRINSLOO: No Mr Chairman, I've called - no.

CHAIRPERSON: For Mr Walus are you calling witnesses?

UNKNOWN: I'm not calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, although they are not our witnesses in the strict sense of the word, we have asked for Mr Visser to be made available for examination.  If our memory serves us correctly he was warned to be here today.  He is not.  I am informed by Mr Mpshe that he has spoken to him and that he has undertaken to be here tomorrow morning.
	Also Mr Chairman, on the evidence appearing in Mr Visser's application for amnesty, it would appear that a Mr Clark has some information relating to the matter.  You will remember Mr Chairman this is a person who frequented the Derby-Lewis' home apparently, so it is said, for the purposes of looking after Mrs Derby-Lewis' computer.  If Mr Visser's information is correct, we may ask you do different inferences and it may be necessary to examine Mr Clarke.  He has proved to be an elusive person to find but counsel for the second applicant informed me during the luncheon adjournment that they have managed to establish contact with him and that he too will be here tomorrow morning.  We would submit that these two witnesses ought to appear arising out of information which the Commission itself had for examination.  It's no fault of ours that they are not here today but it would appear Mr Chairman that the Commission may be constrained to adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] reluctant to do this you know, Mr Bizos.  We've had endless difficulties with Mr Visser on previous occasions, it seemed he blew hot and cold and said he was coming in, he was not coming, he would come if his attorney were present and if his attorney were not present he wouldn't give evidence.  We've been hearing this on a number of occasions in the past and he's not here now and if it is just because he's not here, we have to adjourn to enable him to be here tomorrow, I would be most reluctant to do so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well that is, I have given those two, Mr Chairman, there is also - attempts were made by us to find Mr De Waal, you recall the purpose for which he is to be called?  We have been particularly unsuccessful.  We are informed by persons in the employ of the Commission that he has been contacted and we are told also that he will be here tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Told by whom Mr Bizos?