Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

REV XUNDU: I'll start with you and then the mother will follow.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Revd Xundu.  We will still hand over to you to lead Mr Madubedube to give his testimony.

REV XUNDU: I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Madubedube?

UNKNOWN: I am a (indistinct) of the Nozulu clan.

REV XUNDU: Thank you, old man.  Where were you born actually?

UNKNOWN: I was born in (indistinct) in the village of Tsitsikama.

REV XUNDU: How did you come to Queenstown?

UNKNOWN: I arrived here in 1950 as a policeman.

REV XUNDU: Is the lady next to you, your wife?

UNKNOWN: No, she is my daughter.

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  In your evidence, you are telling us that you were a councillor at Mlungisi township here in Queenstown?  You were a councillor here in Mlungisi location in Queenstown, is that so?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

REV XUNDU: As you can perhaps remember, was the system of councillors allowed by the people or was it that they
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were against it?

UNKNOWN: No, I think they were not against it.

REV XUNDU: How did these people become councillors?  Were you being elected to the council?

UNKNOWN: Yes, as perhaps we can see today.  Yes, there was a system that was created.  In fact Mlungisi had eight wards.

REV XUNDU: Do you mean that you won in the elections or do you think the majority voted for you?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

REV XUNDU: As now it happened that people were actually becoming against the system, so what is actually the case?

UNKNOWN: No, you can just raise up your voice, because you know, I cannot hear you properly.  I'm a bit deaf.

REV XUNDU: What made it that there were people who rose against you personally because you were a councillor?  So what actually happened, because initially you say that the system of councillors was accepted by the people?

UNKNOWN: I do not know, but what I can only say is that there were some children who called themselves comrades.  These were only children, and there were no elderly people.  My child was burnt down by small kids who simply called themselves comrades.

REV XUNDU: You have said that your house was repeatedly burnt down.

UNKNOWN: No, it is the kids who stoned my house.

REV XUNDU: And ultimately it happened that your daughter was omitted?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they burnt her.  Previously we took her to Johannesburg and when she came back, no she was actually a kid who loved his family.
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REV XUNDU: What was the actual reason that made them to burn her?

UNKNOWN: They said she was an informer.

REV XUNDU: Do you think that, they say she was giving information to the Government?

UNKNOWN: It is said that it is something like that, I do not know.

REV XUNDU: Now, someone said the people who were there, when your daughter died, who are the names of the people who were there?  Here in the statement you say there was some of the people who were there and who are responsible for the death of your daughter.  Now do you still recall the names of those people?  There she is going to help you.  Go on.
Let me say once more, do you still remember the names of the people who were present or some of those people who were present at the time your child was killed?

UNKNOWN: I am going to assist him.  People who came to our home whilst my father was sleeping and I was sitting under a tree, it was a group of people and when they came in, they stood at the gate because we have got two gates, they stood at one gate.  One of us went to call my father.  Lungelwa was sitting under the tree with my mother and my cousin.
 So Lulama Mtshiselwa came and took Lungelwa from my mother, and we asked why and he said she had given information about Viwa Mtshiselwa.
 There was a policeman who was once burnt down, Tato Radebe.  So (indistinct) came and took Lungelwa together with Ndondosi and another child from the Mbasani family and another called Tsolwani, whose surname I don't know.
 There was another one from Nogemani family, they took 
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him away.  Then when I chased Lungelwa, trying to go round before them, I could not make telephone calls, because they had disconnected and cut the telephone cords.
 Because I wanted to call the police.  Fortunately I was given a car by (indistinct), so I used it.  When I got there, I found that they had locked her in a certain house nearby the place where they were intending to burn her.
 I ran to tell my mother who was walking, following Lungelwa.  When the policeman could not find her, they hippo drove towards the New Brighton, they took her out and they burnt her.
 When I was running to her, my cousin stopped me and she was fighting, she was saying she was not an informer and she had taken the tyre out of her and she said this should be the last time that you burn someone because I am not going to die from the burning.
 And I could not go close to her.  I decided to run back home, then I told my parents that they had burnt her.

REV XUNDU: Do you believe that this was just some allegations that were not true or do you think that there was a struggle between political organisations at the time?

UNKNOWN: No, there was no political organisation that was independent.  We used to call us as a group, that we were comrades and therefore Lungelwa was one of those comrades.  And she was one of those people who was against the councillors here in Queenstown.
 And she used to fight whenever there was something that was not acceptable.  So my father took her there, that is where my father was asked to resign by Lungelwa.
 Lungelwa took my father to resign, because that was something that was very unpopular to the community of 
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Queenstown.

REV XUNDU: How old was Lungelwa at the time?

UNKNOWN: She was 18 years old.

REV XUNDU: Was Lungelwa a member of a students' organisation?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

REV XUNDU: What was the name of the organisation?

UNKNOWN: If it was COSAS then it was COSAS, but I don't know because I was a teacher then, and I was a member of the NUSA organisation.

REV XUNDU: Now, what actually caused this attraction to Lungelwa?

UNKNOWN: In short I will say the cause was that councillors had to resign and my father resigned like other councillors, but he had a rising because I would like to say more and explain, there was a child who used to live with us.
 We are close with the Mtshiselwa's who were our neighbours.  We did everything together.  The day a boy by the name by the name of Xolile used to come to our place and this particular day he brought some clothes from the dry clean  and I  did not  know that  he was one of the comrades.
 He was a sweet boy so he took R2-00 from us to pay for the clothes and the dry clean.  So I asked him to give me a cap, I am married - I am Mrs Nqweniso.  So Xolile came and took the R2-00.
 In the morning we were told that Xolile was found in a macapela house, shot by the police and we were surprised and hurt.
 Before the end of the day there was a rumour that my 
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father was responsible for his death, but when Xolile
died, my father was at home and it is quite a distance from the Macapela house to my home.
 It is a long distance, really quite a distance.

REV XUNDU: Now how do you think how did they connect the death of this boy to your father?

UNKNOWN: You see here in Queenstown you would be labelled and have a stigma that would really suit you.  It was very bad here in Queenstown at that time, people would say things about you and it would take time for it to change.

REV XUNDU: Let's continue.  Now you say so Lungelwa died.  Was there any inquest or any investigation done on the death of Lungelwa so that this people could be arrested?