Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I joined the SAP in September 1982 and then I resigned on the 30th of April 1986.  At the time  ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Because of?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Because of the riot situation and in the light of the policemen staying in the township, their lives were not safe, and also further, because of maybe the way I have seen that the Blacks were badly treated -I am sorry to say that, the Blacks were badly treated by the White cops, even sometimes, even the Black cops they used to treat any Black man very badly, assaulting them, but not torturing, not in front of my eyes, but assaulting them.  So I couldn't take that thing at all.  So I decided .......(tape ends)
TAPE 2 - DAY 2 - SIDE A

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, well, but we don't have a branch in Newlands, the branch which it was stationed in Hillbrow, which is now stationed at Crown Mines, is the one which is serving Newlands also.

UNKNOWN: Ja, so that branch was the closest to Newlands police station.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now during your stay in the police force and stationed at Newlands, did you in any way have any dealings, connection with Fidelity Guards?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not at all, because, no, not at all.

UNKNOWN: That is the evidence, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Have you any questions to put to this witness?

ADV PRINSLOO: As the Chairman, pleases.  As a former policeman you were aware that the South African Police at that time, in particular the security branch, operated on a very secret basis.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not as far as I was concerned by that time, only after I have resigned, I received a message from, I cannot remember the name of the police officer at Genl Coetzee, who asked me to go and see somebody at John Vorster Square at the security branch, where I was approached, that they wanted to use me as an informer, and I was not interested. I am sorry to say that.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes, but the question, is Mr Mkoana, that the security branch operated in a secret fashion.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, no ...

ADV PRINSLOO: They kept their information to themselves.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not, that's why I say I had no information until after I have resigned. I never know anything about the security department, security forces.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, the question is not whether you knew, but what I am putting to you is that the security branch operated on a secret basis.

HASSAN MALL: You said as a policeman you knew.

ADV PRINSLOO: That is the question, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV PRINSLOO: As a policeman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, and he says that while he was a policeman he did not know, he came to know after he resigned.

ADV PRINSLOO: As you please, Mr Chairman.  May I put it to you this way, the police force at the time consisted of various departments.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: The security branch, the criminal investigation department and the uniform branch.  Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And they all three had different tasks.  Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And they operated separately from one another.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.  So the security branch in itself, operated on a particular basis and was more concerned with politics at the time. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.  Now Mr Mkoana, as a policeman you also know the responsibility of a police officer.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: If a crime is committed in your presence.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you also know the way in which the Police Force operated, in particular the uniformed branch.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And the police made use of an occurrence book in the police station?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: In the charge office.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And the occurrence book gives details as to what takes place in the charge office. It is a history what takes place on a particular day, a daily basis. Correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now at Fidelity Guards, in the basement the guards also had an occurrence book which they had to keep up-to-date.  Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes, and you will recall in the trial of Mr Gerber and Van Eyck there was particular reference made to an occurrence book that was kept for that purpose. Do you remember?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, that occurrence book was not kept for that purpose of maybe the investigation of maybe of Mr Gerber.  The occurrence book, the way I sometimes I used to go there in the basement while I am sitting in the guards' seat, the guards used to make their, use - the type of the entries which they used to make in the occurrence book, it was just to show that they did patrol, everything was in order.  But there was no specific thing saying maybe, you could make maybe further entries.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, on the particular day in question, the night in question when the deceased was on duty from 12 that night, someone else had made the entries in the occurrence book and not the deceased. Do you recall that evidence or don't you know?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I heard it yesterday.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I heard that evidence yesterday.

JUDGE WILSON: What night was that?

ADV PRINSLOO: That would have been the night of the 21st - the 22nd, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: The 20th?

HASSAN MALL: The 21st.

JUDGE WILSON: The 21st?

ADV PRINSLOO: The 20th of May.

JUDGE WILSON: Into the 21st of May.

ADV PRINSLOO: Into the 21st of May, Mr Chairman.  And you will also recall there was evidence in the trial that pages or a page rather of the occurrence book had been removed at that time, during that night?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, I heard so.

ADV PRINSLOO: So that created a very suspicious circumstance in that situation. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes. And also the deceased at the time who was supposed to be on duty was not performing his duty as he had not been writing in the occurrence book.  Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, but can I just add something on that.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes, please do.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: As I have already told, as I have already said previously, how does the guards operate, or how did the guards used to operate.  What they did, is maybe 15 minutes or 30 minutes before they report off duty, more especially in the morning shifts, since it was not busy, they used to go to the changing room, have a shower, change, then went back to their posts, and after that they were waiting for the relief.  As soon as the relief arrives, then they leave.

ADV PRINSLOO: But from 12 o'clock that night, that is the 20th, into the 21st, Mr Mkoana, the deceased was supposed to be on duty and he did not perform his duty as he did not write in the occurrence book.  You can't dispute that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I object to that. There is no such evidence that the deceased was not on duty as from 12 midnight and he did not perform his duties.  The evidence that is on record is that when Mr Gerber arrived he met the deceased, who came from the basement.

HASSAN MALL: That is the position.

ADV PRINSLOO: I respectfully submit, Mr Chairman, what I am putting to the witness is that there was an occurrence book and it was the responsibility of the deceased only to write, keep that book up-to-date on an hourly or minutely basis with reference to every occurrence, and the deceased had not performed that function, somebody else wrote in the book, so he could not have been on duty or performing his duty.