Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: I have it yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: "
If you are/were an officer/and office bearer/employee of the State or any former State, or you are/were a member of any former State, State department/division."
That's quite a twister, but I think it's meaning is clear despite all the strokes.  Now your answer to that is:
"SADF (Special Forces), CCB DKI"

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And then
(b)  State capacity and period in which you were in the service of the State or former State, or served in the Security Forces, if applicable and Force number, if any."
and then your answer is:
"SA Defence Force.  Relevant period 1988 to 1989, either as a member or employed for specific purposes."

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I see that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It is the truth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now this was before - well it hasn't been suggested to you that you wanted to make friends in high places at that stage or you were being untruthful at that stage.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it wasn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: But let us turn to some of the details of what really happened in fact, in order that the Committee may decide on the evidence, whether or not you were an employee of the State, either on a permanent or what we call on ad hoc or piecemeal basis.  May I just return on what Mr Kahanovitz reminds me.  Mr du Plessis, did he draw this document?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The amnesty application?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I'm assuming so.

CHAIRPERSON: The handwriting that appears there, is that yours?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It is Mr du Plessis' handwriting.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was Mr du Plessis a stranger to your doings or had you taken him into your confidence in at least your conditions of employment and the basis upon which you did things?  Did he know that from a long association with you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, Mr du Plessis was aware that I had been a member of the CCB and DCC at the relevant times, as I stated.  Not Mr Verster's version, but my version.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And it was on the basis of that which you no doubt confirmed at the time that you were in detention, by signing under oath that that was the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Mr du Plessis acted for the other CCB members at that time.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: So he had their information to back up your claim presumably that you were connected with the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I'm assuming so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Alright.  You were not challenged in any way by our learned friend Mr Wessels, that you were regularly paid a salary, do you confirm that it was a salary?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was definitely a salary.

GEORGE BIZOS: Whose money were you getting?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Defence Force money.  It came from the Defence Force.  My own money that I worked for.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let us just have a categorical statement, if you would.  From when to when were you getting R4 000 a month as a salary?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I received this salary from my time of joining the CCB, which was officially June 1988, it continued until my Section 29 detention which was late in 1989.  I cannot recall the precise date, but it was towards the end of 1989.  And only during the weekend when my memory was refreshed by telephonically consulting with my parents, I heard of the R4 000 per month which was paid out to Brenda Mills, because my father wrote out cheques to give to her.  He is prepared to testify about it here and the record regarding the cheques is available if the Committee wishes to consult it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Barnard, do you know for how many payments, for how long Brenda Mills got paid in such a manner, R4 000 a month?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I was under Section 29 for approximately three months and twenty one days, so it would have been for that duration of time.  And as I have already testified, after my discharge I was asked what my needs or requirements were and I think that it was approximately R6 000 that I compiled a list of and I was told that I could obtain R12 000 the following day with which I was supposed to go on holiday, and this money also came from the CCB.

GEORGE BIZOS: We also know that you received various bonuses.  Now I'm not going to ask you to estimate the amount that you received in bonuses because you have given detailed evidence of the approximate amounts that you received from time to time and that we will add them up for the purposes of argument, so you don't have to worry about the amount.  But whose money did you get as bonuses?

FERDINAND BARNARD: From the Defence Force, from the CCB.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you were given how much?  If I recall, R30 000 for a motor car?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: We have heard from Mr van Zyl that he received a similar amount, was that as far as you know, the upper limit that a member or associate member of the CCB was entitled to for a motor car?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.  May I just confirm?  In terms of discussions with Mr Calla Botha, that he received a similar amount, Mr Calla Botha, and that I was also told at that time that I could purchase a more expensive vehicle.  However, R30,000 would be the amount that the company would provide and I would have to be responsible for the deficit if I wanted to purchase a more expensive vehicle than that for which the funds that they made available to me allowed for.

GEORGE BIZOS: And whatever label that they may want to put on you, did you feel that you were treated in a substantially similar manner as the other members of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, with regard to employment benefits, salary, medical benefits, policies, annuities, in that fashion yes, but with the exception of my handling after I was incorporated into the organisation, they dealt with me differently, I didn't for example undergo the courses that they had, it wasn't necessary, the CCB knew what they wanted with me.  But with regard to my recruitment by Mr Joe Verster, I cannot understand that people are still trying to prove that I was an unconscious member, because wouldn't that have been the mother of all security breaches if Joe Verster had recruited me in contravention of all the rules and regulations?  I enjoyed all the salary benefits and everything else, we discussed this with each other.  Calla Botha and I saw each other on a daily basis, we discussed these matters.  I saw that the was driving a car, I saw that he had a pager and I had all these things as well.  We shared the same benefits.  That is how it worked, precisely the same as all the other members.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now was there any discussion amongst your fellow CCB members that Mr Verster and/or Mr van Zyl or others may have wanted to use you as the hitman for matters which they may not have wanted to put through the system, so to speak, and particularly behind the back of Gen Joubert in the first instance and Gen Webb, thereafter?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, it was never discussed as such, although I believe that Mr Calla Botha and I would have speculated regarding it and I believe firmly today that that is precisely what occurred.  I have no doubt about it although I do not have any factual basis upon which to base this, but in light of everything that occurred and everything that happened to me, I am convinced this is exactly what occurred.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was there that Mr Verster might have been referring to or knew that you may have been able to give evidence in order, to use a euphemism, to fix the General?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I deduced that Mr Verster wanted me to make an insinuation or an allegation during these proceedings that I had received the Webster instruction from Gen Webb, which was not the truth.  His words to me were: "Fuck the General up, fuck him up."