Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would agree with you.  But somewhere along that I would not agree with you because they didn't disclose all the facts.  They would come as people who have already been informed.
	Even the medical officers, they would just come and browse through.  You wouldn't understand what they would write on those papers.  They didn't even complete the papers, they didn't give you all the information at all.  They didn't give you all the information.

MR VISSER: And do you have personal knowledge of what you have just told us?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.  I have been taking people to the police station after they had been assaulted and they were giving instructions that I should stand there and it should not be written that that person has been assaulted.  And those people who had been assaulted, would come here and testify that the medical officers performed their duties in a certain way.  They would come and testify that.

MR VISSER: All right, are you suggesting that the District Surgeon and his staff of Bloemfontein, concealed facts from the records, in regard to marks of assaults which they did see on people, is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: All right, now let me ask you this, is it not true, seeing that you know all these things, is it not true that a Magistrate also regularly visits or visited detainees?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Visser must be polite with witnesses.  It is for instance not necessary to add the (indistinct) that seeing that you know all these things.  The witness is giving evidence, there are things which he says he doesn't know and may he please be polite towards witnesses?

MR VISSER: I will try to be polite Mr Chairman, the witness just said has personal knowledge, and it is on that basis, but I withdraw that.
	Do you know whether a Magistrate and I want to put it to you, especially during the emergency detentions, regularly visited detainees?  Would you agree with that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He used to visit them and they would be assaulted.  We assaulted them whilst he visited them.  They would not tell him, I am referring here to the detainees, they knew even if they would open a case, that would not take them anywhere.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, are you saying that, are you now giving evidence of an instance where the Magistrate was actually present when detainees were assaulted?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, what I am saying is how would the Magistrate be there whilst we were assaulting people?

MR VISSER: Because the translation that I heard said, the translation that I heard Mr Motsamai used the word while we were assaulting them, that is why I am asking you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you assaulted them for a week on end.  He went on to say, as I heard it after then, they would not tell him.

MR VISSER: Now, you also heard Mr Ngo apply for a separate incident.  This incident related to 40 to 45 arrested persons, who he says the Security Branch together with help from other police departments or units, arrested at Botshabelo and took to Botshabelo.  Did you hear that evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you repeat your question, sir.

MR VISSER: Did you hear Mr Ngo apply for amnesty and give evidence to the effect that he assaulted, he was part of an assault and torture of comrades at Botshabelo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I heard that evidence.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you want to cross-refer to it, that is page 31 of Bundle A and following.
	Now, you have not applied for amnesty in regard to that incident, did you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, may I please get what was said to the witness in Sotho when the question was interpreted?

INTERPRETER: Do you want us to repeat what the witness said in Sesotho?

ADV MEMANI: No, what the interpreter said to the witness.

INTERPRETER: What the interpreter said to the witness in Sesotho?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  Yes, I understand you.  And then it seems to me then that what you put to Mr Motsamai is whether he heard Mr Ngo testify that certain people were arrested and assaulted at Botshabelo, am I correct?

MR VISSER: Is he talking to me Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know who he is talking to.

ADV MEMANI: I am speaking to the interpreter My Lord.

INTERPRETER: Oh, the interpreter.  Your interpretation of what I said, was put to Mr Motsamai, is correct, but now what is implied here is that Mr Ngo did he hear, did Mr Motsamai hear the evidence to the fact that Mr Ngo stated that they assaulted and tortured people at Botshabelo, that is what was stated by Mr Visser.

ADV MEMANI: Now, I hope Mr Visser understand what the yes was responding to.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am surprised to hear that there was a difficulty, I thought everything was pretty clear.

ADV DE JAGER: Then Mr Visser asked this witness, he said you didn't apply for amnesty in connection with these incidents and the witness said yes, as far as I could gather from your answer.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, sir.

ADV MEMANI: And this is what I want to know, what did you say then when you interpreted that question to the witness?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He is referring here to the Botshabelo incident, we arrested them and took them to the office, that is where we started assaulting them.  That is what he is asking, that is where I said I did nothing at Botshabelo, hence I did not apply for amnesty.
	We brought them to the office here at Bloemfontein, that is where the torture started.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the last question which was put by Mr Visser, was you did not or let me rephrase it, is it so that you did not apply for amnesty in respect of the assault at Bloemfontein?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did apply for amnesty, that is the one I included here.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So, I think maybe put the question.

MR VISSER: Yes, quite simply this.  You did not apply for amnesty in regard to any assault and torture of anybody at Botshabelo?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What is at, is it torture at Botshabelo or anybody ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: At Botshabelo.

MR VISSER: Botshabelo is about 50 kilometres down the road, apparently in the direction of Lesotho Mr Chairman, it is not Bloemfontein, and the incidents as I understand Mr Ngo's application and his evidence, as that there were two that he is applying for.
	The one, the 20 to 25 comrades arrested by the SADF, taken to Ladybrand and then transferred to Bloemfontein and here they assaulted them.
	Then there is another group, he says and he had a long story Mr Chairman, we will remember that three o'clock in the morning they were commandeered to come to the office and they were told that they were going to arrest a lot of people, they got some help in, the Riot Squad and heavens knows who else, they arrested 40 to 45 people and they had them detained at Botshabelo and that is where they assaulted them.
	The question to this witness is you did not apply in regard to that issue, that incident, those incidents whatever you want to call them, and he says, no, I did not.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry Mr Visser, in that case, for the purpose of assisting the interpretation, then the question would be, you have not applied for amnesty in respect of any person that you tortured at Botshabelo?

MR VISSER: Quite correct, except that that must be related to the group of 40 to 45 people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, let me put it to you again, just in case there is a misunderstanding.  I am talking about the evidence of Mr Ngo where he said that 40 to 45 people were arrested and were held at Botshabelo.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were not held at Botshabelo.

MR VISSER: Well, what do you want to call it Mr Motsamai?