Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Mr Chairperson, I do not remember well but I think it's a day after that I was arrested because they went to fetch me from jail and they took me to their offices.  That is where they instructed me that everything that I've written in the statement, because they had already written everything that is in that statement.
	They said to me, if I'm not going to tell the Chief Magistrate about this thing that I've already written they are going to assault me until I make what they want me to do because it was their duty, because they already assaulted me.  Because I was in great pain, then I agreed that I will say so at the Chief Magistrate's offices and that is what I did.

MR MALAN: Can you explain to us why the police would want you to state that it was buried at three different places and not only at two?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I told the lies because I was protecting myself because I realised what I was telling them they did not accept as the truth.  They forced me to tell them the way I told them because after telling them those lies, that is when they stopped assaulting me..

MR MALAN: No, but I can't understand that.  You're telling them the truth, which is that it was first buried in comrade Mazete's shack and from there moved to your shack and they keep on beating you, and then you tell them, oh, but inbetween it was buried at another shack too, and then they are happy.  Is that what you are telling us?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is correct Mr Chairperson, because as they continued assaulting me, after I told them they were in my shack they did not accept and that is why I was forced to tell lies and say they were also taken to another shack.  That is when I realised that they were now stopping to assault me, because they accepted that is was so.

MR MALAN: But your statement Mr Mohape says that the last time it was placed in your shack, and that indeed was so, that is where the weapons were discovered, not so?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is correct, they were found in my shack.

MR MALAN: So I still fail to understand why it was important to tell a lie as to the route the weapons followed until they landed in your shack, because you start in your statement to the Magistrate, with the shack of Mr Mazete.  You say in your statement that he had family and that you therefore decided to move it, but then you say you moved it to another spot and eventually to your house.
	I can't understand why the police would be happy with that, simply because you also talk about another place where there was a temporary stay of the weapons.  What was the importance thereof, why would they be happy with that?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I will say they were happy about that because the way I explained it to them, when I said I took them to my shack until my arrest, they did not accept that as the truth, they continued assaulting me. That is what forced me to tell them the lies and then I realised that after lying to them, after saying I moved it to other places as well, that is when they accepted.  Although I knew it was not the truth, but they stopped assaulting me.

MR MALAN: Were you not - you never knew that the weapons were buried in the shack of Mr Mazete, you didn't know that?  Is that what you're telling us?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I did not know.  I only knew when were taking them to my shack.

MR MALAN: Alright.  So he was your commander, he kept the weapons for a month but he never told you about it, is that what you are saying?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: During that month while they were still at his place I don't know, I only knew about them when he told me that we have to take them and get them another place and then we agreed that we would take them to my shack.  That was the first time that I knew about the weapons, that is the time when we were taking them to my shack.

MR MALAN: Did you assist him to take it out from under the ground at his shack?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say they were under the ground at his shack.

MR MALAN: No, no, I'm asking that because that was in the statement, it was buried he says, in the statement to the ...[inaudible]
	Did you assist him in removing the weapons from his shack, taking it to yours?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is correct, I helped him.

MR MALAN: Where did you find the weapons in his shack?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: They were buried inside the shack under the mat, they were wrapped.  So we took them to my shack and then we wrapped them and buried them and they were safe there.

MR MALAN: So you helped him to take it out from his shack?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Yes, I helped him and he also helped me to bury them at my shack and then we separated after that.

MR MALAN: And you didn't ask him about the origin of the weapons and the use?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I asked him where these weapons came from and he said to me: "They belong to the organisations".  Then I accepted it was not necessary for me to ask further questions because I was trained as a member of the task force that I should not ask unnecessary questions to another comrade.  If he gave me an answer I must be satisfied.  So I was satisfied with the answer that he gave me, that they belonged to the organisation.  So we took them and ...[indistinct]

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one point I'd like to clarify so that you can't be criticised on the same basis as the previous applicant.  Were you also - did you also hold an office where you were branch organiser?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: In the youth arm of the PAC I was an organiser, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, no further questions.  That is my applicant's case at this stage Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've handed in a new statement, or not a new statement but just an attested statement of Pedro Ignacio de Castro.  The previous one you had in your possession was not attested to, this one is attested to.
	Mr Chairman, if you would allow me, there are certain statements I made to some of the witnesses which I said will be testified to and to this cause I would like to call Pedro Ignacio de Castro, the owner of the shop.
	Mr Chairman, Mr de Castro's statement is in Afrikaans.  I don't know if he wants to speak Afrikaans or English but his statement is in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you want to talk English or Afrikaans?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: It doesn't matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Are prepared to take an oath?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Pedro Ignacio de Castro.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, you were and you still are the owner of the Wesselsbron Supermarket?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR STEENKAMP: At the time of the incident you were still then the owner, am I right?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell me, am I right in saying that one of the victims was your wife?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just state her full names for the record please?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Maria Fatima de Castro.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying you are also opposing, as the other victims are, the applications of all the applicants?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: That is one hundred percent.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you briefly give the Chairperson an overview of exactly what happened on the night in questions?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: It was a Saturday evening.  It was about two minutes to 9 o'clock.  I was on the back of the supermarket.  I was attending to one of my workers who was ask me for money ...[intervention]

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry, who was this, do you know?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Poelie was his name.

MR STEENKAMP: Poelie?  Do you know his full names?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Solomon Setsuro.

MR STEENKAMP: And was he one of your employees?