Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BENNET SIBAYA: I was asked to go and look for Mazibuko, I then gave a report that he was refusing to go and give a statement - I had already made a statement at that stage.  This policeman came to my house on the Monday, when I got home I was told that he'd come three times.  On the Tuesday I gave a report back that Mazibuko was refusing to go and give a statement, I then was told not to mention anything about him.

MS QUNTA: But I understood from you evidence in chief that you had already made the statement.

BENNET SIBAYA: When?  What time are you talking about specifically?

MS QUNTA: Okay.  I think we must - I want to get a sequence out of you now, on the evening when you saw - when you allegedly saw this vehicle, you went to the police station, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Correct.

MS QUNTA: Which police station did you go to?

BENNET SIBAYA: Guguletu.

MS QUNTA: And do you recall the day on which that was - the evening that you saw the vehicle, what day was it?  Do you recall the day?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was at the end of the month on a Thursday or Friday.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  I think it was on a Thursday, if I'm not ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: The statement in paragraph 3 says Friday the 31st.

MS QUNTA: Okay, I could judge the evening ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS QUNTA: Sorry.  I suppose the evening it was the 30th and the 31st so I think there is a bit - but that ...[inaudible] Thursday and Friday.   Now, when did you actually go and make the statement that you made to the police, on what day?  Do you recall on what day it was or how many days after? Perhaps we can use that to make it easier for you.

BENNET SIBAYA: The Guguletu police said that our statement was incoherent, they said we must go home, they took our addresses.  It is on the Monday that they came ...[intervention]

MS QUNTA: Who came on the Monday?

BENNET SIBAYA: Nongahusa.

MS QUNTA: And where did he come from, which station?

BENNET SIBAYA: Bellville South.

MS QUNTA: And when did you make the statement then, on which day - it was on the 5th?

BENNET SIBAYA: On the Tuesday or the Wednesday because I was asked to go and look for Mazibuko.  I went to Mazibuko, he refused to come with and I then returned on my own.  The following - it was the following week, two days elapsed and then I went to make the statement.

MS QUNTA: So Superintendent Segal told you before the statement not to mention
Mazibuko, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Not correct.  When I gave the statement, Mr Segal was not there.  It is the people to whom I gave the statement who said that I must not mention Mr Mazibuko's name, when Mr Segal got there I had already made the statement.  We are talking about another week altogether when Mr Segal came to me.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, I'm going to ask you to listen very carefully to what I say, earlier on at the beginning I asked you why you had not mentioned Mazibuko's name and you said you were told by Superintendent Segal not the mention his name.  When I asked you why you had mentioned it in the second statement, you implied that it's because no-one told you not to mention him.  Now, I'm asking you again and you say no you saw Superintendent Segal after you had made the statement and he told you after you had made the statement, not to mention your friend.

JUDGE WILSON: That's not what he's just said now is it?  Isn't what he has said now - I agree with what you've put to him before, that when he made the statement Segal was not there and it was those who were there who told him not to mention his friend's name.

MS QUNTA: But Mr Sibaya, you told us earlier on that it's Superintendent Segal who told you not, in your statements you also said it's Superintendent Segal who told you not to worry about Mazibuko.  Now you are saying to us that in fact it was not him, it was the other people who took the statement.  Who exactly ...[intervention]

BENNET SIBAYA: No, Mr Segal was not the first person to say this to me - he also mentioned this, however the people I gave the statement to initially said that I must not mention Mazibuko's name as well.  Mr Segal came to me after a few days had elapsed saying that there are things that he didn't understand within my statement, he did not understand the location I referred to.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, in your statement given to John Lubbe, in your evidence in chief and earlier when I asked you, on all three occasions you mentioned Superintendent Segal telling you not to mention Mazibuko, you have not mentioned anyone else now you are bringing that in.  I think it would be appropriate to say to you at this point that you are not telling the truth and perhaps what you should do is think very carefully and tell this Committee exactly who told you not to mention Mazibuko.

BENNET SIBAYA: What truth are you talking about?  What truth do you want to me?

MS QUNTA: I didn't realise that there were different types of truth Mr Mazibuko - Mr ...[inaudible] slip Mr Chairman - Mr Sibaya, there are no different types of truth, you must tell this Committee what happened.  Who told you that you should not mention Mazibuko?  You told us on three occasions that it was Superintendent Segal, now you deny it was him only, you say that in addition to him there were other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Well just leave it at that, we've got two versions on the record.

BENNET SIBAYA: I'm not denying.  Nongahusa came to me and said that I must go fetch Mazibuko - listen carefully, I went to Mazibuko, he refused, Nongahusa came to fetch me the next day and I told him that Mazibuko had refused.  Nongahusa then gave a report back, they said that I must continue with my own mission and leave Mazibuko out.
	It is not Mr Segal to whom I gave the statement, Mr Segal only came afterwards saying that he did not understand my statement well.  He requested that I take him to the location, I told him that I was with my friend Mazibuko.  He said that we can then leave Mazibuko out, I must just give my statement as was.  I don't know what truth you want.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, I'm going to leave you there ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This might a convenient stage to take the adjournment.  We'll now adjourn and resume and 9H30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION 30 OCTOBER 1997

BENNET SIBAYA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Qunta, are we ready to proceed?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before Miss Qunta proceeds I'm instructed to place on record the following - you've been handed as 3(a), it is the last page of the report of Mr Lubbe which appears at page 15 to 14 of the supplementary bundle Mr Chairman, the omission of that in the bundle is regretted - it was always available, it was part of the original report and at this stage we don't know how it wasn't copied but it was - as soon as it was brought to our attention, copies were made and circulated.  The oversight is regretted Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We've been given a plan of the area, is this accepted by everybody?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I was about to place on record that yesterday afternoon the plan was handed to Miss Qunta and in order to facilitate or assist the cross-examination, it was distributed.  She hasn't indicated whether they accepted it or rejected the accuracy of the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had a chance of looking at it?

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman, I must admit I haven't had an opportunity to actually study it but we were given a map - a hand drawn map by Mr Mark Killian, who actually went to the premises and to the extent that it - the two maps comply, I would have no difficulty in this but if it becomes necessary I will raise certain issues but I've no objection to it being used.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well this will go in as Exhibit D, is it?

JUDGE WILSON: E.