Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: What pleased him was to catch these UDF spies who would in turn led to the death of IFP members.  If we are to assume he had not been pleased he would have given us the money to go to Ulundi or he would not have asked M.Z. to hide us.  For him to give us money and send us to M.Z. was because he also consented or he was pleased with what we had done.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you first consulted with Mr Nkethle did you advise him specifically that you had raped one of the girls?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: As I reported to Mr Nkethle, I had not stated that but when he discovered it he was pleased.  He heard the information after the post-mortem and he was pleased.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you not apprise him of the fact that you had already raped one of the girls when you first consulted with him?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Maybe I made a mistake but I did not see a reason why because at that time what you should understand is that as far as we were concerned, the UDF were like dogs they meant nothing to us so we did whatever we felt like to them and they did likewise to our members therefore I did not see a reason to tell him that at the time but he later learned of it before I went to Ulundi and he was pleased about it.  Inkatha was not displeased, not even once about my activities until I was arrested.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was the raping of young women as young as fourteen quite a frequent occurrence within the IFP?  Raping of young women who are members or perceived to be supporters of UDF?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It happened on both sides.  There was violence at the time and if they were looking for somebody, if they did not find him they would rape whoever was in the house.  The UDF would also rape women and kill them.  There was a case of a woman who went missing for four days and was later discovered dead and raped so this happened on both sides.  That was how it happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Within your group that you commanded as a ground commander, are you aware of instances where members of your group raped women who were perceived to be UDF members?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes at that time - at one time I was on night duty and they went to a certain house at Unit 1, I was called by Sipho Umlaba who asked me about an incident that had happened at Skolaza.  Bheki Nsangebe, Sepiwe and Themba and  Vanuz went to a certain house looking for Skoloza and every woman who was in the house.  I looked like Sgangi and when I went into a house I could knock and say I was Sgangi and Sgangi did the same about me so I think these boys did do something of that nature and there must be a docket at the police station about it.  They burned an old woman in her house so I have knowledge of that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: My last question Mr Hlongwane.  When you raped Stella ...[indistinct] what political objective would you say you were seeking to achieve?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It was not political objectives but objectives of war.  I was fighting with a political enemy.  The UDF you would later tell their female members to spy on IFP areas would not want to do so after this incident because they would know what had happened to the other girls therefore this was a message being sent to the UDF.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why was the other woman not molested, why was she not raped, the other person?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I don't know whether this is in my affidavit but I raped the one woman and Mondli raped the other.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Moloi do you have any questions?

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I could just for the record state that to the best of my knowledge Mondli was in fact convicted of a similar offence in regard to the other woman at an earlier trial that won't appear in this record because the trials were held at different times.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Moloi do you have any questions?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman, just briefly.
	Mr Hlongwane from your evidence I deduce that you never caught up with this Sgangi, am I right.  The question is simply that you never eventually got hold and executed Sgangi as it was your mission to do?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I did not, even today.

MR MOLOI: So the elimination of these two brothers didn't bring you anywhere nearer achieving that end, did it?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It did bring us nearer but because when we were killing these boys the police went out but it was not that the police, these police, were anti-IFP but there were just a lot of them.  The others were from Pretoria - those they left but I suppose it's here - those left and went to Zekele Nkethle, those they were supporting us or supplying us with ammunition, the reasons being the police and we could not actually attack on the funeral day.  Even the Caprivi group, I know that they actually also when they wanted to kill that particular day, they couldn't kill because of the situation of the police.

MR MOLOI: So you did not actually - your objectives eventually Sgangi by means of killing Thulani and the younger brother, those acts themselves did not bring you to the point of killing Sgangi?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed but to get sort of a glimpse - but an item at Sgangi's place became IFP members and we gained more votes because of that.

MR MOLOI: Now add another dimension to this - you got votes from the Sgangi's is that what you're saying?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that's I'm explaining that when all these things were happening at Sgangi's all those people who were collaborating with Sgangi actually left and the IFP was the only party left there, that's what I'm trying to explain.

MR MOLOI: I'm getting lost - what votes are you talking about?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: What I'm trying to say is that the IFP members, when I'm referring to the votes, I'm saying that the members of the IFP went back to the IFP and voted for IFP because of that incident.  Everybody who was belonging to UDF they left and everybody who was left there remained IFP because of that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Please calm down.  Please calm down so we can continue?

MR MOLOI: Are you stating that Mr Hlongwane as a fact or is it just speculation?  Do you have first hand information of what you've said?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No, no what I'm saying is that I'm saying that through my knowledge.  The comrade that was left actually was through because that comrade was hiding.  Everybody who was there was an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please be quiet.

MR MOLOI: Surely you can make it out for yourself from the response of the audience here that they are not in agreement with you.  What do you say about that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It is what I'm saying - maybe if we can call other leaders they would actually support what I'm saying.  Even the UDF people will support this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and Mr Motata, do you have any questions.

ADV MOTATA: Just one Chairperson.
	Mr Hlongwane just clarify me on this and I would specifically tell you that I'm referring to incident 6 on page 140 of your affidavit.  My understanding of how the IFP members and UDF members were living within Mpumalanga, there were demarcations, there was not just a mixture of such people, did I understand you correctly?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed.

ADV MOTATA: Now as regards incident 6, you say it was a revenge attack on a UDF members Thembiso Nglovu and this person was living approximately six houses from your home.  Was your home not an IFP road so to speak?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It seems as if I can't quite get what you are saying.  Will you please repeat clearly?