Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-07

ADV MOTATA: In all fairness to you, the applicants have said that shortly thereafter they were arrested and they told the South African Police that they are responsible for the death of Brigadier Molope.  Where you ever in contact, or the investigating officers in contact with the South African Police to get this information or did it come to your attention that there are people who are already arrested who killed Brigadier Molope?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: I would like to say this case was handled by another gentleman who was second in command and he was based in Mafeking.  He was handling Molope's case and investigating it.  I do recall that one day there was a rumour that there are people that were arrested in South Africa but not here in Boputhatswana and had mentioned that they also had a role in Molope's case.  That is what I am aware of and that's what I heard.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mokobojane.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

ADV SIGODI: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I have none.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokobojane, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that will be the evidence for the bereaved family.  I don't like the word: "victim".

CHAIRPERSON: Are you gentlemen in a position, perhaps after a short break, to make your submissions?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm obviously more comfortable with presenting them to you in written form at a later stage but we have drawn some very short heads.  I unfortunately haven't been able to have them typed up.  If that will suffice, I would request that I may supplement them at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll have a short adjournment.  Perhaps we can have an early tea.  We won't have a short adjournment, come back and then break after a few minutes for tea again.  If we can just perhaps take the tea adjournment at this stage, and we'll adjourn till ten to eleven.  Would that suit?  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	The requirement which you need to satisfy yourselves are set out in Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act.  The first requirement relates to the formalities of the application.  We'd respectfully submit that the application was filed timeously on the prescribed form and that it was properly signed.  I have made a note just to obtain the copies of the originals so that those can be made available to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps that can be done through the offices of the TRC rather than coming to you and then back again.  I can make arrangements myself to get sight of them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps Mr Chairman, to cut it short, I have seen the applications, they are at the office, they will duly signed and I will make them available ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you say you've seen them Mr Mpshe and the witnesses say they have signed them then I am certainly prepared, I'm sure we are all prepared to accept that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Mpshe.
	We'd respectfully submit then that the application complies with the requirements of the Act, that the formal requirements have been fulfilled.
	Sub-Section 2 deals with what is meant by an act associated with a political objective.  We'd respectfully submit that it is common cause that all four the applicants were members of the ANC, were members of Umkhonto weSizwe and so they would fulfil the requirements of Section 2(a).  They also fulfil the requirements of Section 2(d).  They've each testified insofar as they have knowledge of the mandate given to the unit, primarily from the evidence of the applicant, Masina but they've each confirmed that that was their understanding.
	The act which they were involved in, the act which is before this Committee, was the death of a senior Boputhatswana policeman.  And we would submit to that, that that fulfils the requirements of (d) in that it was an act directed against the state.
	What has been raised through the family of the deceased, was the question of the bona fides of the applicants.  In other words, was this a political act or was this an act for which they received payment, an act on behalf of a rival of the deceased.  We would submit that there is no evidence to support that, there is no evidence whatsoever.
	As we said earlier, they each testified to the mandate, they've each testified to the manner in which the deceased was identified as a legitimate target.  In this regard the evidence of Masango is particularly relevant.  And the person on whose behalf they would purportedly have carried out this private vendetta has denied that.  There is no link whatsoever between Mokobojane and the four applicants.
	Insofar as there may be a question in respect of the involvement of the applicant Potsane, we would submit to that the requirements of 2(f) have been fulfilled.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be conspiracy?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That would be conspiracy, yes Mr Chairman.  It requires that he must have reasonable grounds for believing that he acted in the course and scope of his duties.  Sorry, I'm referring you to the wrong section, my apologies, it should be 2(g). That is a person who associates himself or herself with any act.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the possible prosecution of that applicant would in relation to conspiracy, so there would be an offence.  We wouldn't be granting amnesty for nothing, I mean for no offence.  We've got to have some sort of possibility of a criminal prosecution or a civil suite against him in order to get the amnesty.