Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: There would be no reason to tell Mr M.Z. Khumalo, would there, that a decision had been made by other people to kill Zazi Khuzwayo first if he had already given an instruction beforehand to kill him first?  Would there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Thank you.  I want to move on to a different matter now.  When you were in training as an MK cadre, you were in various camps around the world with different MK people, receiving training, is that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Were there ever any problems between the Zulu's who were receiving MK training for the ANC and other tribal groups for example Xhosa people, in those camps?  Were there any tribal problems that arose in those MK training camps?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, such problems did exist.

MR HEWIT: Tell us about those problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hewit, is this relevant to the application?

MR HEWIT: We suggest yes, if you will just give me some latitude here, and I will as soon as we get the answers, I will demonstrate the relevance.
	Were there problems between Zulu's undergoing MK training for ANC and for example Xhosa's?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Not as you put it.  The MK is not specifically for Ama-Xhosa and Ama-Zulu.  The MK is encompassing, it included all the organisations in South Africa.
	And therefore I cannot say that Ama-Xhosa and Ama-Zulu were the only ones fighting.

MR HEWIT: Yes, well, you are making this longer than I had wanted it to be.   I just want to know, you mentioned to me there were problems between the Zulu speaking group and others, and I just want you to briefly tell me what they were.
	Then we will deal with the relevance of it.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say first of all Ama-Zulu took a truck and they wanted to come back to South Africa and others objected to that idea.
	As a result of that, there was conflict.  Those who were Zulu's took the truck by force, and they left.  They were arrested along the way and they were sent back where they took the truck.  The matter is discussed and it came to an end.

MR HEWIT: Right, when you were waging this campaign that you told us about against the UDF, did you know any of their leaders as former MK people that you had known from overseas training?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Would you please explain that?

MR HEWIT: The MK people that you trained with, did you ever see any of them in Natal during these years when this war was going on, who were now UDF, but you recognised them from overseas training, or knew from overseas training?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: What time frame are you referring to?

MR HEWIT: Well from when you came back to Caprivi, during that entire time, until you went to see Mr Vanni, all the assassinations you did, all the attacks you organised and committed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not see anyone of them.

MR HEWIT: So, any attacks that you launched on former MK people, now with the UDF, weren't part of settling old scores from problems in the past when you were in camps together, is that what you are saying?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't quite understand your question.

MR HEWIT: All right, we will leave that.
	Please turn to page 214, paragraph 3.3.  You say there the Security Police tried to recruit me, but I refused.  Leonard Nkosi had become an agent for the Security Police.
	How did the Security Police, this is the Security Police of the South African Police, of the former regime, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: How did they try and recruit you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: So that I can leave the Umkonto weSizwe to join them, and go around, show them around where other MK members resided or they would send me to go and kill other MK members.

MR HEWIT: Were you offered any inducement to do this by way of them persuading you to join them, for example did they promise you a salary?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would just explain it as follows:  The Special Branch never used to bag a person.  The methods that they used were such that they would torture a person, so when a person agreed, it was not out of his own volition, but it was because of pain that a person was going through.
	And because the pain was unbearable ...

MR HEWIT: Now, Leonard Nkosi was he in MK with you?

MR HEWIT: Sorry, Mr Hewit, I see the witness is apparently in a state of distress.  Mr Luthuli, would you like a short adjournment?

MR STUART: If I might request that on his behalf Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will take a short adjournment and if you can let us know as soon as you are ready, so that we can start as soon as the witness is available.

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (still under oath)

MR HEWIT: (continued)   All right, so you told us just before we had the short adjournment that the Security Police did try and recruit you?  Apart from the torture which you spoke about, did they also say that they would, if you join them, they would pay you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Now, when you return from the Caprivi, you told us that you met Louis Botha who was a Security Policeman, a member of the Special Branch, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: During the period from the time that you returned from the Caprivi until the time that you made a statement or gave information to Mr Howard Vanni, did you meet any other Security Policemen?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: During that period that I have referred to, did any of the members of the South African Police try to recruit you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Did Louis Botha ever try and recruit you for the South African Police?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Please turn to page 215 of your affidavit, paragraph 3.9.
	Do you have that Mr Luthuli?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: You say there, on my arrival at my home, I found that my father had become a member of Inkatha, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: That is after you were released from Robben Island, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you say as instructed, I did likewise, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: This was in keeping with ANC policy of that time?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So at that point in time, there was no antagonism or animosity between Inkatha and ANC or UDF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Then you say, despite this my father remained a staunch supporter of the ANC, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: He later turned against Inkatha because he felt that Inkatha was collaborating with the South African government?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: When did your father turn against Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say when there were statements that were directed towards the ANC.  Statements that came from the IFP President.  That is when he turned his back.

MR HEWIT: Yes, well I am actually trying to put this into some form of time frame.  We know that you basically finished with Inkatha when you went to see Mr Howard Vanni, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct yes.

MR HEWIT: Was it some years before that, that your father had in fact turned against Inkatha because they thought they were collaborating too much with the South African government?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Approximately how many years before your final disenchantment with Inkatha, was your father disenchanted with Inkatha, two years, three years, four years?