Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Where are we referring to Mr Chairman, please?

MR WILLS: Sorry, it's 1942.  The implication starts at 1942 at the bottom.  I say to you
"Now what was the position of her clothing?  Were her legs covered or were they bare?
		Mr Chairman, I think her legs were bare.
		So the prospects are that she was wearing a dress as opposed to long trousers?
		No, I believe she was in a dress, Mr Chairman."

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: So that is your memory, that she was wearing a dress?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: And then you say when I continue, you've got a lightish colour in your mind's eye.  Now would you describe this sweater, this polo-neck, Exhibit 2, I know it's been discoloured, but it seems to me that it is a lightish colour.  I'm referring to the second paragraph in page 143(?).

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The second paragraph?

MR WILLS: Ja, your second answer

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't recall anything specifically.  In my mind's eye, I believe it was probably light in colour, lightish in my mind's eye.  I've got lightish, but I'm not certain on that."
You see that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I see that.

MR WILLS: So now would you agree that this polo-neck sweater is light in colour?

CHAIRPERSON: And the slip, Exhibit 3, they're the same colour in fact, as each other.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, from what I can see here it appears so, yes.

MR WILLS: Now I was just a little bit concerned about your answer to Mr Visser's first question when he referred you to your presence at Bantry Beach, you said you weren't sure of that, but the evidence is clear that you weren't at Bantry Beach ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it called Battery?

MR WILLS: Battery Beach.  I'm sorry.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I wasn't there.

MR WILLS: So it's not a case of you not being sure, you were never there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was not there.

MR WILLS: Ja.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR WILLS: Sorry, that's all, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, do you have any questions?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Wasserman about the clothes?

MS THABETHE: Just one, Mr Chair.
	Mr Wasserman, would you remember the clothing that Ms Kubheka was wearing, from looking at this dress?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, not specifically at all.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, there's just one thing I omitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: How tall do you think - I mean, how heavy do you think I am, Mr Wasserman?  Do you want me to stand up?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes please.  Could you take your jacket off, Sir.

MR WILLS: Are you able to guesstimate?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: 80/90.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you guessing the height or the weight?

MR WILLS: The weight.

CHAIRPERSON: 80 or 90 is quite a big difference.  What would you say?

MR WILLS: Well I can tell you you're 20kgs out if you say 80 and you're 10kgs out if you say 90.  So the bottom line is that you're not able to estimate weight, are you?

CHAIRPERSON: And you're not 70, so you must be 100.

MR WILLS: I am, yes indeed.
	So your estimate of weight in regard to Ms Kubheka, could be far out, 20kgs out?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's very possible.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.  Mr Hugo, any re-examination?

MR HUGO: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wasserman, thank you, that concludes your evidence.

MR VISSER: May I call Mr du Preez as well, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
RECALL OF 
SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me get your name down, it's Salmon Johannes Gerhardus du Preez?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr du Preez, you have also testified previously?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You have now had the opportunity to view the exhibits which have been placed before the Committee.  As you recall the size and the build of Ms Kubheka ...

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I'm just waiting for the interpretation to come through.
	Would you be able to say whether those clothes would have fit here?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: In my opinion these clothes would have been way too small for her.  They would not have fitted her because they would have been too small.

MR VISSER: You also helped to carry her on the road near Inanda, where you left her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: If you had to estimate her weight, what would you say it would be?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: I would say that she weighed over 100 kilograms, 100 to 150 kilograms.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you're estimating her weight to be 100 to 150kgs?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: 100 to 105.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo, any questions?

MR HUGO: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: You said in your evidence at 1802 of the record, when giving evidence-in-chief, that you couldn't remember the clothing at all.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Ja.  Does this prompt your memory in any way?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: Not at all.

MR WILLS: You can't even remember if she was wearing a dress?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: I recall that she did wear a dress, but this dress and its colour does not bring any recollection to mind.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if she was wearing a jersey?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that there was a jersey involved.  As far as I can recall she was wearing only a dress.

MR WILLS: And do you know possibly if she was - would you have noticed if she'd been wearing that polo-neck?  Often those polo-necks are worn under the dress.  Can you remember anything about the polo-neck?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: I cannot, I cannot recall at all that there was a polo-neck.

MR WILLS: Surely when you put her into the car you would have afforded her the dignity her in a position quite carefully, that she wouldn't have been indecently exposed.  Or did you just dump her in?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: She was simply placed into the car.  She was pulled into the kombi.  No attempt was made to expose her or to prevent her exposure.

MR WILLS: And when you put her into the - correct me if I'm wrong, were you involved in disposing of her body?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And when you put her into the, I think it was the panel van, wasn't it, or a bakkie of sorts?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was a Nissan vehicle.  I think it was an 18 hundred Nissan.

CHAIRPERSON: A sedan?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: A Nissan sedan.

MR WILLS: A Skyline, that's right.  Now when you put her in that vehicle, you obviously laid her on the back seat.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The boot.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: It was the boot, as far as I can recall.