Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MR FORTUIN: Is it correct if I say that 120 cartridges were picked up in the house after the incident, that that is what came out in the evidence during the trial?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So, as far as your viewpoint goes, there was no conflict between the PAC and the ANC, is that correct?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Do you think that politics played a role in the act that was committed on the 19th of March 1993?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: There was no political involvement.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, Mr Maduna is today in front of this Commission and is asking for amnesty.  I read from his affidavit on page 3, paragraph 15, that he regrets the loss of life.  Do you accept that and can you forgive him?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Firstly I can say, I cannot forgive him and for the following reasons I am going to stipulate.  One, he doesn't show what he had done, is giving the whole truth to us.
	Secondly, his arrogance.  Thirdly, the way he is speaking shows that he still hiding the information to this Commission and to the general public of South Africa.
	Whatever has be posed to him, he is not answering correctly and as a person who is applying for amnesty, you should stand up and say I feel sorry for what I have done to the family and go to the family.  Maybe you can, if he is afraid he will be accompanied by his lawyer, but he has never shown that to us, saying that what he is coming to say in front of us, he is still hiding something and he is still hiding the information that we have got in front of us, which we have dug on our own and he doesn't come up with the whole truth, how we can as a family ...
	A person who doesn't even want to give us the whole version, and why he was doing this thing, he doesn't give us the motivation.  The only motivation, it is an insult to our family saying that they were attacking a gangster.  He is owing our family an apology on that.  He is also owing not only our family, but to the general public of South Africa.  That is an insult to our family and me personally, it is still hurting me.
	As a person who left the country, trying to fight for this country to be freed and where we are today, and then he is still calling us gangsters.  At the same time he is applying forgiveness from our family.  As a family we are opposed, the only place where he can stay, it is the custody to stay out of the people because he is very much dangerous.
	Even if he can get out, he will still continue and come up with stories of lying.  He lied at the Supreme Court, he is still lying here.  He is giving ferocious information.
	In conclusion, as a family we are denying his amnesty.

MR FORTUIN: Have you Mr Elese, got any knowledge where Tinage and Kamagen is now at the moment?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, they are in custody.  Tinage is in custody at Queenstown, in the same incident of gun for hire on the taxi thing, he has been sentenced 30 years there.
	Kamagen was sentenced here in Cape Town, he is still around these prisons of Cape Town.  I don't know in which prison in Cape Town, but he is still here.  He has also been sentenced around gun for hire of the taxi thing.
	That is why, all that he had said, it is a gun for hire, even the people who have been arrested, whom he was with then, they have been convicted of the taxi think and a gun for hire, that is why we are saying it was not politically motivated, but it was a gun for hire to kill our family.  That is the thing.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, can I just get a brief moment with my client please.  I can do it right away, I will just sit here, there is just one aspect that I just want to clear up with him before I ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us whether Tinage has any other names?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: His surname is Sicelo Naki.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that for us please.

DEPOUTCH ELESE: It is Sicelo Naki.

ADV SANDI: The other one, Kamagen, what is his full names?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Kamagen?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I don't know his full names, but I know him while he was playing soccer at Nyanga stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he known by any names that you know?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: No, I don't know exactly his name, but I can dig that information and get it.  I can go to CODETA where he was belonging and get his full names.

ADV SANDI: Maybe whilst we are on this, a couple of other names that has been mentioned.  Wella, Sipiwe Mqweso, do you know those names, do you know those people?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: None of them I know.

CHAIRPERSON: What is CODETA?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: CODETA it is a taxi organisation which before was used as Lagunya.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you spoke about the plot to assassinate you.  Do you have an idea as to who is actually behind this plot to eliminate you?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: The Security Forces at that time, they had been raiding our family house day in, day out and the Commander who was doing those raids, it was Captain Knipe or Colonel Knipe.  I don't know what his exact rank was.  They even shot at the house to say that we cannot retaliate as they know that I was a member of MK, but we never retaliated.

CHAIRPERSON: That was in those days, but now, who would like to assault you now, who planned to assassinate you?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, the plan was to assassinate me, that is why they even used the Security Forces to go and do a surveillance.  That is why they were doing several raids before the attack was done.
	There was a lot of raids, it was 37 in one month.  From the 1st of March to the 18th, there was a lot of raids in the house, it was 37 in that period.  It shows the involvement of the police, it is there.
	If you can investigate the make of an Uzi.  An Uzi, it is an Israeli weapon and South Africa was corroborating at that time, with Israel. That is why they were getting Uzi's.  It is not a South African made, an Uzi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, I also believe that you were contacted by Mr Raymond Ndinisa who came and visited you, or rather that Raymond Ndinisa contacted you, that you had to go and see Mr Maduna in prison, is that correct?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: What was the explanation, why should you go and see Mr Maduna?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: When he phoned me, he was with Dumisa Makoma, because they were getting information from Mandla Maduna that it is him who had done the killing and he wants us to forgive him.
	He said his application will be taken through the PAC structures and he joined the PAC while he was in prison.   They will give ...[indistinct] information to the TRC so that he can get out.  That information, I pass it to ...[indistinct] and also to the TRC to accompany me to go there, but the Investigation Unit of the TRC said it is them who is going to handle that, I mustn't go there.  It ends there, I didn't go, up until today.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Raymond Ndinisa somebody that was known to you?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the people that were in your house that night?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: It was Tienie Elese, Timothy Soga, Sicelo Pauli, Joyce Ndinisa and Ayanda Ndinisa and there were kids also.  It was Florence, it was Mandisa, and Lydia.  Those were the people who were inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: How were they related to you?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: They were the family of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Tienie, is he related to you?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He is my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: And Timothy?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Timothy, he was a family relative.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: She was the wife of my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: Ayanda?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Ayanda was the son of Joyce's sister.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people who were shot and killed?