Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: On the evidence of this witness or on your instructions?

MR LOWIES: On his evidence.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: This puzzles me.  What I am saying is, just as those lights above there are not shining directly on you, they are just casting light.  All I'm saying is that there was light and that is where I saw him.

CHAIRPERSON: Assuming that pole next to this camera is the Apollo light, do you understand that? Let's assume that this is the Apollo light, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would Mtwana have been standing in regard to the light?  We know that it may have been a distance from your house, and where were you standing?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Well he would have been between the pole and yourself, is that what you're saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The pole light is as far off as Botswana, it was the light that was cast in our direction.

MR LOWIES: What made you sure that it was Zulu and nobody else?  What were the distinguishing features that you saw?   Because you are making a mistake on his version and I'd like you to tell us what those features were.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I will put it this way.  What I said yesterday - I'm not sure whether you're going to understand it or not, but I said yesterday when he emerged from there he called out to my son, he called out: "Morena" and he called out "Lucky".
	What I know very well is that I am not seeing him for the first time today, nor did I first meet him two days ago.  I knew him from a long while ago, he was a resident at Serela and he used to perform with our children.  Maybe you understand that.

MR LOWIES: I understand that.  The question is; what distinguishing features made you so sure that you saw him on the day and not somebody else?

CHAIRPERSON: You see I'm not too sure what it is that you are, or whether you want him to tell us what features he has, because what he is saying is that he knows him very well, he's seen him on a number of occasions.

MR LOWIES: I get the point, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He comes to visit his in-laws, which I gather from him is about four houses from where - is that right, is it four houses down the road, the in-laws?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: My house is opposite Buwa's.

CHAIRPERSON: The in-laws which Mr Zulu used to visit, are they four houses from your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is the fourth house from mine.

CHAIRPERSON: His son, Mr Baloyi's son, took part in a traditional dancing club.  That's what he's saying, so that's why he says he knows him very well.

MR LOWIES: I would like to ask you this, did you see whether he had a beard or not on that day?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Please repeat.

MR LOWIES: Did he have a beard that day when you identified him there outside?  As he denies that he was not there, he challenges you. - that he was there, sorry.  He denies that he was there.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He is the one who is denying that.  If he denies it, what am I supposed to say.  If he denies that he was present he must explain where he was, he is the one who must do the explaining.

MR LOWIES: He can explain, he says he was in KwaZulu Natal and he visited a doctor that day, or over that period.  But the point is, Sir, you must - no listen please, the point is ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I maintain that I saw him.  That is what I say.

MR LOWIES: You must please just tell us ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, I don't have to repeat this, Mr Lowies represents amongst others, Mr Zulu, according to his instructions Mr Zulu was not there, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so these questions that are being put to you are intended to test whether indeed the person that you claim to have seen and heard was Mr Zulu.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't answer first.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what I've just explained to you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I will explain it to you again.  Mr Lowies is representing amongst other, Mr Zulu, Mr Zulu says he was not there, so what Mr Lowies is doing is to test whether the person that you say in your evidence you heard and saw was indeed Mr Zulu, do you understand that?  Do you understand what I've just explained to you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I maintain what I said, it was him.

CHAIRPERSON: So at this stage it is not for Mr Zulu to come and explain.  If necessary and if he's advised to do so he will come and tell us his own version, but for the time being you are there to answer the questions, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that's alright.  I saw him calling out "Dodudu, Morena" and "Lucky".  If it wasn't him then I don't know who it was.  Nobody else would have called out to them on that night.  He is the one who used to perform with them.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, could I ask for an indulgence, Mr Baloyi looks very tired.  Could we take the adjournment at this stage?  It's 4 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't have time.  At the pace at which we are going we are not going to finish.  If we still have to listen to 24 witnesses, we're not going to finish.

MR BERGER: It's not going to be 24.

CHAIRPERSON: We can take a short adjournment and come back, but we'll have to continue with this cross-examination.

MR BERGER: He is exhausted, can we take a short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, can you still give evidence or are you tired?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I can continue, but I don't know how many questions still remain.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we want to have an indication as to how long you are going to continue.

MR LOWIES: I think half an hour, it could be less.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: Half an hour, or it could be less.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, who is going to be the next person?

MS PRETORIUS: I will be the next person, but I won't canvass this again.  There is only one ...

MR BOTHA: I think I should be about half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR LOWIES: I don't believe that I will be more than half an hour, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: I should be about 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr Baloyi, if you are no longer in a position to continue giving evidence, let me know because what they are telling me is that they are still going to be here with, they still have to ask you questions for some time.  So if you are tired at this stage we will adjourn and you will come back tomorrow morning and we will continue.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is alright, we can continue even tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say ...(indistinct), what do you mean?  Do you mean you can continue now until half past four or do you want to take the adjournment now?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we can continue until half past four.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman.
	Now please, Sir, just to make sure I want to know, could you see whether he had a beard or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am maintaining what I said, he called out to my son.  I was watching.

MR LOWIES: Must I then take it you can't say whether he had a beard that night or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot comment.  If you know a person well you would not concentrate on whether they have a beard or not that day.

MR LOWIES: Is it correct you can't even recall what clothes he had on, whether it was dark or light, not even that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I do not recall his clothing.

MR LOWIES: Was there ever trouble between you and him in the past?