Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

ADV DE JAGER: Let's just get this straight.  Do you agree that the murder and the attempted murder applied for were acts related to the political struggle at the time in the vicinity?

MR PANDAY: That point is accepted, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The only point of course that you raised with us in chambers is that of full disclosure and you would want to have sight of the affidavit to be able to be satisfied that the applicant has satisfied that requirement of full disclosure.  We'll grant you a two minute adjournment to enable you to go through the affidavit and to be able to come back and take instructions to see whether the full disclosure has been complied with by Mr Khumalo.  Will that be sufficient time for you to consult with Mr Ngcobo?

MR PANDAY: Yes Madame Chair, that will be sufficient, thank you.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for two minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, are you in a position to proceed Sir?

MR PANDAY: Yes Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you now taken instructions from Mr Ngcobo.

MR PANDAY: Yes Madame Chair, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PANDAY: Yes Madame Chair, just a few.
	Mr Khumalo, in your affidavit handed up today, in paragraph 9 you say that you were approached by Tokozani who was the member of the ANC and informed you of the fighting that was taking place.  What position did Tokozani hold in the ANC?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: He was an ANC member.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not getting any translation, are you?
I think there's a problem with my set.  You may proceed Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Khumalo, I know that he was an ANC member.  I want to know what position he held in the ANC.  Was he a marshall, was - he held some higher position in the ANC?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: He used to be a marshall sometimes.

MR PANDAY: And is he from the area that you lived in?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Would you please repeat that?

MR PANDAY: Tokozani, was he from the area that you lived in?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: They were still building a house there.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he from where you were staying?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No they were from Mabaleni, that's where they were staying before and then they just came to the area.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words he was in your area?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Khumalo, you thereafter mention in paragraph 10 that you went to Sitombi's place with two other gentlemen to attack this place.  You say one of them was Duleng Cele, that's the one you can remember.  Do you know who brought the second gentleman?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I do know.

MR PANDAY: Who brought him?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: They both came with Tokozani and I was the fourth one.

MR PANDAY: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Panday?
	Were these people members of the ANC to your knowledge, the ones that Tokozani brought with them?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the surname of Tokozani?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: What's his surname?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Tokozani Mbele.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and is Sitombe, that Mr Panday has questioned you about, the same person as Mr Ngcobo?  Is that Goodman Ngcobo?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes, his name is Goodman Sitombe Ngcobo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Khumalo, I'm going to take you back to the time you gave a statement or a confession to a magistrate.  Do you remember that time?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I do remember.

MR PANDAY: Right.  Would you be able to remember the statement you gave to the magistrate?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Even though I cannot remember very well because when I made the statement I was not well, I was forced and also I was trying to run away from being found guilty or having committed the crime.

MR PANDAY: Mr Khumalo ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, you lied in that statement, is that correct?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes that is correct, in court.

MR PANDAY: Mr Khumalo, do you remember in court they were arguing to accept your statement or not accept your statement, do you remember that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, where is this going to get us in terms of you being able to explore whether in his amnesty application he has made a full disclosure?  He has already admitted not to have been entirely true in that statement.  Is there a point to which you are getting?

MR PANDAY: Yes Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You obviously now have taken instructions and if there is anything in terms of what is contained before us in this affidavit, that would indicate that he is not telling the truth.  Wouldn't it actually expedite matters if you were to put those things that you do not entirely agree with?

MR PANDAY: As you please, Madame Chair.
	Mr Khumalo, when you made the statement you mentioned that you had gone to Durban and fetched nine other men and come back to Sitombe's place, do you recall that?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that, won't you tell us?

MR PANDAY: That's page 21 of the bundle of documents that was given to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we have that.

MR PANDAY: Seven lines down from the top, Madame Chair.
	Now Mr Khumalo, why now in your paragraph in your affidavit you mention only two others accompanied you to Sitombe's place?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: I said there were nine from Durban before.  The truth is that we were four and out of these four I only knew one person.  The other one I didn't know and then I knew Tokozani and myself.

MR PANDAY: So are you saying that you lied that there was nine of you?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he's saying.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Khumalo, which are we to believe, nine or four?

CHAIRPERSON: He is telling you he's now telling the truth, he lied in the statement he made before the magistrate.

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Khumalo, in paragraph 11 of your affidavit you mention you had hand grenades and AK-47s.  Where did you get the hand grenade from?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Tokozani brought it.

MR PANDAY: And the AK-47s?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Tokozani as well brought the AK-47.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Tokozani give an indication from where he had obtained these weapons?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No, he didn't give me any indication and also myself I didn't even ask him because I actually admired the fact that he had these weapons with him because I also needed weapons and what I had with me, I wasn't happy about it because it was a SP12.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: So Mr Khumalo, is it correct that the entire factions that took place was not as a result of your brother being killed by Sitombe and his friends, it is what Tokozani came and told you, is that correct?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: It was everything together.  Tokozani was being harassed by these people, also myself.  I decided that I should accompany Tokozani and if I were to die I was ready to do so.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madame Chair, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madame Chair, I have one question.
	Mr Khumalo, why was Bhukunda Cele and Mr Ngcobo 
killed?  Why was Bhukunda Cele killed and Mr Ngcobo injured?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Ngcobo was our enemy, he used to attack the ANC organisation or members and my aim was not to kill Cele, my aim was to kill Ngcobo.

MS THABETHE: No further questions, Madame Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your aim was not to kill Cele but to kill Ngcobo, how was Mr Cele killed?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: Cele was caught in a crossfire because he was at Ngcobo's place.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left that day to attack Mr Ngcobo's house did you know that Mr Ngcobo would not be the only occupant in the house?

ZIPHAKAMISE NYAWOSE: No we didn't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: What were your intentions when you left, were your intentions not to attack Mr Ngcobo's house?