Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

MR MULLIGAN: Chairperson, it is common ground between myself and Advocate Mpshe that what happened thereafter can be placed on record.   It's common cause that from there they went to a petrol station where they put in petrol, they rushed off without paying for the petrol, they were then being chased by the South African Police.   Comrade Motepa was shot in the back in the chase, the vehicle in which the applicant was left the road.   He was arrested because the police van came on the left-hand side, everybody else escaped through the right-hand doors, he couldn't because Motepa was sitting there, he was wounded.   The police got hold of him and Motepa then managed to escape.   So as far as the incident is concerned, he was arrested, I think it's common cause that he was assaulted by the Rustenburg police and by the BOP police thereafter, and then he went on trial thereafter.
	I just want to ask you a couple of more questions.   Which political party did you support at the time?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was an ANC supporter.

MR MULLIGAN: Were you a member of the ANC, or considered yourself to be a member?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was not a card carrying member of the ANC that would identify me as a member of the ANC, but I just considered myself as a fully-fledged member of the ANC.

MR MULLIGAN: Now, in that... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mulligan, before you proceed, with regard to the petrol station incidence, amnesty is not requested, is that so, the application for robbery, that applies to the robbery at the police station, not the petrol?

MR MULLIGAN: That applies to the robbery at the police station.   For some reason, they were never charged for the R50,00 theft from the petrol station, if we can call it that, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MULLIGAN: Now the rest of the people in that group, were there card carrying members of the ANC in that group?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I remember Comrade Owen and Comrade Vusi from Orlando-East, they were card carrying members of the ANC, but most of us were supporters of ANC right from our schooldays, and the Diepkloof area was a stronghold of the ANC then.

MR MULLIGAN: Now one of the people who was with you, Motepa, you said that he had military training, is that correct, because he was an MK cadre?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Was that the reason why he was also acting as the leader of this expedition, if we can call it that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, we had high regard of him.

MR MULLIGAN: You only saw one policeman that was killed, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I only saw one policeman.

MR MULLIGAN: In your opinion, how was the other one killed, because you didn't see it?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: If I can recall the whole incident clearly, I think this other man, he was shot whilst Comrade Kenneth was busy firing at a door.   I don't recall us returning fire to the person who was busy shooting us, but the only time we fired was when we were inside the charge office, and Comrade Kenneth was the one was busy shooting at that door.   Therefore I think that the bullets that were busy being fired at the door caught the other policeman.

MR MULLIGAN: Let me assist you.   Do you believe he was on the other side of the closed door?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's what I think, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Now, Mr Ross, you've also indicated to me today, although it's not necessary, that you also wish to apologise today to the relatives of the two policemen who died.   You say that you never knew them personally, that to you they are just names and faces, but today we can see that the relatives are here and you said to me that you really want to apologise.   So if you want to do it, it's your time to do it now, sir.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Thank you.   I would like to say to the families of the deceased policemen that me, myself, Ambrose, did not know them personally, and I had no grudge against them.   All I know is that I was just against the government they represented that time.   I also, I want to mention that I don't take their death as a mistake on my side, and I don't regard it as something that I did deliberately, but it's something that I had expected when I took a firearm and proceeded to that police station, I knew that by doing that, by arming myself, I should expect that somebody could die.  I was quite and fully aware of the possibility that I might be shot as well.   What I want to say to you, I want to say to you that I know what I have done, and what I want to request from you is quite difficult... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ross, I see one of the relatives of the victim is in a state of stress at the moment.   Perhaps, Mr Mpshe, if you could find out whether they want a short adjournment and then we can continue.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I would suggest a short adjournment, with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   We will take a short adjournment and will proceed as soon as you let us know, Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll let you know, Mr Chairman, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   Mr Ross, you may proceed.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: (still under oath)

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: As I was saying that I will like to inform the deceased's family that my actions at that time, I wouldn't like to give them the impression that I did not expect people to die, I don't want them to think that I'm someone who made a mistake, but they must realise that I was a person who was involved in the struggle at that time, I know that this is quite a difficult thing to ask, and I know that they might not forgive me, but I will keep on begging them to forgive me for what I did to their family members, the late Mr Mugaba, I plead with them to look at it from my point of view, because at that time the political situation in our country, it was not normal, and therefore I plead and beg that they accept my apology regarding what I did to their people.
	Thank you.

MR MULLIGAN: Mr Ross, I just want to return to something, you told us that Motepa told you a lot of things about the old Bophuthatswana and why it was necessary to attack at Ledig.  That happened at the second meeting, that would have been on the 17th of October, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: In the beginning, were you in agreement go to Ledig in the old Bophuthatswana?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I objected to the Ledig idea, because it was far.  I knew that we needed arms, but to go to a place as far as Ledig did not make sense to me, but he explained to me and showed me the significance Ledig carried.

MR MULLIGAN: And once he explained to you, you were in total agreement with him that that was the way to go?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, sir, we concurred.

MR MULLIGAN: Now at the murder trial, four people were eventually arrested, one of the four escaped out of detention and he was shortly thereafter killed, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: And that was Sepiwe Makgalamele, who would have been accused No 4 in that matter, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Now the other two accused, Nos 2 and 3, in your trial were found not guilty and discharged, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: But they were with you on that occasion, they were part of the eight who pulled off the attack, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, that's Comrade Kenneth and Phutese Bajaja.