Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: We went to Mkuzi Camp during 1990, that is where we got trained.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that answer, will you repeat it please?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: We were trained at Mkuzi Camp. I don't quite remember the date but I think it was during 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you to go there?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: We went for six months.  We were taken by Inkatha Kombis or in Inkatha Kombis from Wusa.

MR PATEL: As members of the Black Cats gang were you given any assurances about prosecutions and or arrests in respect of any offences that you committed?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes that is correct.  Chris Ngwenya gave us the assurance.

MR PATEL: What assurance did he give you?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: He told us that we would not get arrested and I realised that it was true because at no stage did I get arrested.

MR PATEL: Were you - I don't know if I asked this question, were you prosecuted for any of the offences for which you claim amnesty?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: No I never did.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, if I could have just a five minute consultation with my client?

CHAIRPERSON: No more than five minutes.  We're finishing the case today.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: (s.u.o.)

MR PATEL: (continues)  Mr Majola in your experience as a member of both the, at one stage as a member of the Black Cats and at one stage, and at this stage a member of the ANC, did you find in the political strife that was present did you find a different approach in respect of the two sides that you were once part of?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I don't understand your question.

MR PATEL: Alright, let's try again.  What was the approach of the IFP, the black cats with regard to the political turmoil that existed?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel can you ask him to put ...[inaudible]

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your question then Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: Okay.  As a member of the Black Cats what was the approach of the IFP or the Black Cats in so far as the political situation was concerned?  How did they approach the matter?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: As a member I was not satisfied with the political strife that went on.

MR PATEL: As a - if one could in general talk about the way in which a particular party approaches the political turmoil, how would you say - what would you say was the approach of the Black Cats or Inkatha in dealing with the political unrest?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: They were attacking people, harassing them.

MR PATEL: Who is they?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes I was referring to Inkatha as well as the Black Cats.

MR PATEL: When you went to KwaZulu for six months were you given any theoretical matters to deal with?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes I do remember us being instructed.  For instance that we should come back and harass and attack members of the ANC.

MR PATEL: When you turned and became a member of the ANC ..[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Patel can I just ask a few questions pertaining to the last issue, that is training?  Who told you to go to Mkusi Camp for training?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: It was Chris as well as Jwi Zwane.

ADV SANDI: Who were you to go and undergo training with at the Mkusi Camp.

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: We were a group.

CHAIRPERSON: Who trained you?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: It was Peter Mnsani as well as Sugar who was my commander, Sugar.

ADV SANDI: I understand you have said at some stage Chris Ngwenya had told you that you could do these things without getting into trouble with the Police.  Did you ask him why he thought you could never get into trouble with the Police?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: We never asked him any questions but I believed him because I never got arrested.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: Mr Majola how old were you at the time that you went to KwaZulu Natal?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I think I must have been between eighteen and twenty.

MR PATEL: When you became a member of the ANC did you find that their approach to the political strife that existed was any different from that of the IFP or the Black Cats?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes it was different.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee in which way it differed?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I would say the approach was different with the ANC because we were mainly defending ourselves or the ANC was defending it's members.

MR PATEL: I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: And when you were a Black Cat?  Were they not defending themselves?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: No, their approach was attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black have you got any questions?

MR BLACK: No, I have no questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt.

MRS VAN DER WALT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes I have one or two questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You had to spoil it.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Majola in your evidence in chief you said there was a meeting at Chris Ngwenya's place where a decision was taken to kill Bobolina, do you remember that?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes I do remember but I was from work so I was not at that meeting, I only arrived after the meeting had taken place.

MR MAPOMA: Was Chris Ngwenya present at that meeting?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I have no clarity because I did not attend the meeting.

MR MAPOMA: When exactly did you arrive there?  At what stage of the gathering did you arrive there?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: After the meeting had taken place.

MR MAPOMA: And then there were some people there is it not so?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes there were a few people who were just preparing themselves to go to Bobolina's place.

MR MAPOMA: Was Chris Ngwenya amongst those people with them?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: He was at his place, the other one I came across was Sugar.

MR MAPOMA: Then were you instructed to also go to kill Bobolina?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Who instructed you to be part of that?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Sugar, my commander.  He was my commander then.

MR MAPOMA: What reasons did he give as to why Bobolina must be killed?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: No he did not.  They we should fire ahead that's all I remember.

MR MAPOMA: Then was there an instruction to destroy anything that was ANC on the way to Bobolina?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes there was.

MR MAPOMA: What did you understand that instruction to mean, to kill anything that is ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: He said to destroy.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir, I'm sorry.  To destroy anything that is ANC what did you understand that to mean?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Could you please repeat your question and be simple please?

CHAIRPERSON: Look, if you don't understand a question then say so but Mr Mapoma's asking the questions not you.  What did you think he meant by when he said you must destroy everything that's ANC?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I told myself that these people were the enemies of the IFP and we should therefore destroy them because that is the exact instruction that we got - to destroy.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Majola, I want you to please clarify this.  A decision was taken specifically to kill Bobolina and it was not a decision to kill any ANC but to kill Bobolina the person.  What was the issue with Bobolina?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: There was a decision that Bobolina led Jwi Zwane to his death.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the reason why you believed he had to be killed, is it not so?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And there was no instruction at the time to kill the family of Bobolina, is it not so?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Excuse me?

MR MAPOMA: When you left for Bobolina was any decision to kill the family of Bobolina also?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: There was an instruction to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the instruction to kill Bobolina?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: From Sugar.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the instruction to kill Mrs Shongwe?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: ...[inaudible]