Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

MR VAN ZYL: Initially it would have been Gakkie who would have done it, he would have had to handle and control the whole project.

UNKNOWN: So Gakkie's going to press the remote, where are you going to be when he presses it?

MR VAN ZYL: Not even close-by.  For all practical purposes we would have been in our hotel room.

UNKNOWN: And Botha?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: So what's Botha's function, just to activate the limpet mine at the airport?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Now you say it was said at the in-house that there was a sense of urgency, that you were told that if these people set off any more bombs, you personally are going to be held responsible.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, it was told to me.

UNKNOWN: Was that the sense of urgency?  In other words, it was urgent to take steps now because you're dealing here with a group of bombers who at any moment in the future, with the elections just round the corner, might go off and explode some more bombs.

MR VAN ZYL: Amongst others, yes.

UNKNOWN: Now Gen Webb says that he himself went to fetch the remote control unit, do you know anything about that?

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: Didn't it strike you as a bit strange that the General himself would go an fetch the remote?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, it could be.

UNKNOWN: It would - in the ordinary course of events, that would be Mr Basson's job?

MR VAN ZYL: I would agree.

UNKNOWN: Now the General also says that this was regarded as a "geleentheids teiken".  What he says is at page D25, paragraph 5.1.  He says
"Primarily from the information that we obtained, it appeared that the particular organisation met in the Early Learning Centre on a regular basis."
and so on and so forth.  He says - to of page 26:
"If action had to take place on such a short basis and only a brief time period was available in order to take a decision with regard to the action that would be followed, it is known as an opportunity target and in the light thereof, the decision had to be taken as soon as possible."
Was anything along these lines said to you at the time, that you're dealing with something called a "geleentheids teiken"?

MR VAN ZYL: No, my interpretation of an opportunity target differs from what is being said here.

UNKNOWN: Right.  And I assume if I ask you why would Gen Webb agree to authorise the Early Learning Centre but not Omar and Evans, are you in a position to comment?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot.

UNKNOWN: Now you mentioned in your evidence that you received information that weapons were being handed out in meetings of the Kewtown youth, correct?  Weapons.

MR VAN ZYL: I did not have any knowledge about it.

UNKNOWN: You've also not said that it was part of the plan to make it look like - no, I'm sorry, you've said it was part of the plan to make it look like the Kewtown youth had blown up the hall themselves, is that your evidence?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, correct.

UNKNOWN: Right.  Now where would Wouter Basson have obtained his information about what the Kewtown youth were up to?  Where would he have obtained it, from you?

MR VAN ZYL: I supplied information to him, I do not know whether he used any other sources.

UNKNOWN: Oh.  I'm just going to put it to you for your comment, he says that information had been received that weapons were handed out at these meetings.  Now from who besides you, could he have received this information?  Can you think of anyone?

MR VAN ZYL: From the intelligence structures.

UNKNOWN: Oh, I see, alright.  May I just have a minute?  Now isn't it so that this project actually made provision for the loss of human life, so long as those who were killed were members of the Kewtown youth?

MR VAN ZYL: No, what we did discuss was that under the circumstances it was not one hundred percent possible to ensure that no persons would be injured during such an explosion or that no person would be killed.  It is not possible to guarantee it one hundred percent.  So under those circumstances, it was said to me that if it did happen, it was an approved project.

UNKNOWN: Right.  So what was in fact discussed at the meeting where you were given the limpet mine, wasn't it said to you "Look, if there's loss of life, it's acceptable to us as your superiors, so long as the people who are killed or injured are members of the Kewtown youth"?

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: It was never said to you?

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: Can I refer you to your statement at page 40 of bundle B.  If you look at paragraph 78 at page 40, you deal with this meeting of the 30th August 1989, where the limpet mine was handed over to you.  You say - now this is towards the end of paragraph 78
"The working of the limpet mine was described by Christo Britz to Kalla."
And maybe just to explain to the Committee, Christo Britz was Wouter Basson's codename, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"Kalla Botha then became aware of the project.  It was also said here by Staal Burger, that the project made provision for the loss of human life in so far as it has regard for the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement.  This had to be limited to the minimum, however."
Correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: And just read the following paragraph into the record, paragraph 79.
MR VAN ZYL
"Kalla Botha and I, the same day, 30th of August 1989, left with my car for Cape Town.  The cardboard box with the limpet mine was in the back of my vehicle in the boot.  The remote control was in my attache case.  The following morning, 31st of August 1989, we arrived in Cape Town at my brother-in-law's flat, we went to sleep and we left the limpet mine in my car.  Before I fell asleep I was busy with "godsdiens" and we read out of the bible that nothing would happen without the Lord's wishes.  Kalla and I..."

UNKNOWN: Please proceed.
MR VAN ZYL
"Kalla and I had a short discussion about the text as to how we saw it in the light of our activities.  In my prayer thereafter I asked for the will of God with the execution of this project.  We then slept for approximately four hours.  After I awoke I contacted Gakkie at 09H00 and told him that he had to meet me at 13H00 in the parking area of DF Malan, where I would hand over the limpet mine to him."

UNKNOWN: Now if you read those two paragraphs together, isn't it correct that the reason you and Kalla were praying to the Lord, was because you'd just come from a meeting where you've been told that you're engaged in a project which could lead to the loss of human lives?

MR VAN ZYL: Certainly that played a role.

UNKNOWN: And you're asking for the Lord's forgiveness in advance.

MR VAN ZYL: No, that is not what it says here.

UNKNOWN: Now I assume Kalla Botha was told what the plan was.

MR VAN ZYL: That's correct.