Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: The information that you obtained after the offence had been committed, is of no relevance to us.  We cannot use it in deciding whether to grant you amnesty or not.
	I am going to repeat my question again, what made you think that Mr Mkhabela stayed at a hostel?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: After they committed their offence, they ran towards the hostel, and everybody who hid in the hostel was a member and a supporter of the IFP.
	That is what convinced me that these were the members of the IFP who committed this act.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them getting into the hostel or you saw them running towards the hostel?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We were inside the hostel trying to get out of the hostel, and they came into the hostel, running.  We were going out, they were getting in.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you have just given evidence that the people who were in the hostel, were all perceived to be IFP members because those who had earlier on stayed in that hostel, and were ANC members, had moved out and that only IFP members resided in that hostel.
	How did it come that you should go into the same hostel when you definitely were not an IFP person?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I think I explained that we ended up at the hostel because of Paul.  Paul told us that there was someone he knew in the hostel, that is how we got into the hostel.
	We told him that we would not get in, you get in.  He said no problem, let us all get in.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to understand that piece of evidence properly.  Are you saying that comrade Paul said you must get into this IFP hostel to obtain bullets from IFP members?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Paul was not going to state that we were the ones looking for the bullets, it would appear that he was the one looking for the bullets and we ended up going together to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: And Paul was an ANC or an IFP member, what political organisation did he belong to?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was a member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: And what role did he have to play in this whole bullet obtaining story?  Was he facilitating your obtaining ammunition from IFP members?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He told us that he knew someone, they were assisting each other, I don't know how they assisted each other.  He said if we go to that person, he would assist us.
	We then left together.  If we were on our own, we would not have gone.  We only went there because Paul knew someone inside.

CHAIRPERSON: What I cannot find conceivable is you going into an IFP stronghold, to get assistance even with the assistance of Paul, who was a member of the PAC.  What made you to go to such measures?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I already indicated that Paul told us that he had a link with the people inside, and we told him that we would not get in.  He told us that there was no problem as long as we were in his company we would get in.
	Had we been on our own, we would not have gone in there.  Now, we went there because of Paul, the people in the hostel knew him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it normal for your Units not necessarily yours specifically, to obtain ammunition from the members of the IFP?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was not normal.

CHAIRPERSON: In your case, why did you do it?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I have explained that we went to Eastfield to Lloyd, we did not find Lloyd and I said to the comrades, let's go to Paul, he might assist us.
	When we got to him, he said he did not have the bullets, but there was someone he knew who would help us with the bullets, and we left together with him to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, I think this is an appropriate time to take a lunch adjournment.  We will adjourn for lunch and we will resume at two o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: ... as well as having to wait for the Evidence Leader.  When we have given a directive that we are going to commence proceedings at a particular hour, we would appreciate if everybody would cooperate in ensuring that we commence at a time that we have directed that the proceedings should commence.
	If Ms Thabete or the legal representatives of the applicants concerned in any matter, have problems with the time indicated for recommencement of a hearing, they should please bring those problems to the attention of the Committee before it adjourns, otherwise we would want everybody to be here at a time that the Committee would have directed the proceedings should recommence.
	I hope we won't have to be saddled with those unnecessary problems as we proceed the next few days for these applications.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: (still under oath)

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned, you were still busy with your evidence in chief.  You may proceed sir.

MR MOHLABA: (continued)   Thank you Chair, may I just apologise for this delay and wish to indicate that it was not intended to irritate the Chair.
	Mr Selahle, you have mentioned while you were being examined by the Chair here, that it only came to your attention or to your knowledge that Joseph Mkhabela was an IFP member after you had been arrested.
	If I understood you correctly, it is that you did not know his political affiliation at the time of the planning of his death, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Are you able to say to this Commission why was Mkhabela targeted and subsequently killed as he was?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: On the day of the incident, which is the 25th, we went out of the hostel and the people were shot and we enquired from those who were at the scene as to what happened, and they told us that they had been shot and they gave us the description of the people we met entering the hostel, that is where we decided that these people should be accosted.
	It so happened that the first one we accosted, was Mkhabela.

MR MOHLABA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask Mr Interpreter, whether the applicant is in fact saying the intention was to confront with a view of grabbing Mr Mkhabela or the applicant is actually saying the intention was to go and kill Mr Mkhabela.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the response to the question was that they went out because they had to accost him, they had to catch him, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we need to get clarity from Mr Selahle.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selahle, what did you intend to do to Mr Mkhabela once he was identified as being amongst the persons who had shot at the occupants of the taxi?  Was your intention simply to go confront him, just to go and grab him, or was it your intention to kill him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Our intention was to eliminate him.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I am asking this is because your evidence has been alluding to the work accosting, and not to the work elimination.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Maybe you did not understand me well, because I said earlier on we had to accost these people and eliminate them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe if we had not heard me well, make sure that we hear you better by using the right words because we do not hear you, it is the Interpreter who hears you and he is translating directly what you are saying to him.  I know some of the words that are used in the African language, have a different meaning when translated into English.
	Try and not use a word that would suggest that your intention was to grab, confront, but try to use a word in Sotho that would give an indication that your intention was really to kill, okay?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were still explaining that on the 25th, this is the 25th of January you are referring to.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct, 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now will you continue to explain what you wanted to say then about the 25th of January?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: This is the day of the incident, the passengers got shot, it was in the morning and we came together as comrades and we decided that these people should be found and killed.

MR MOHLABA: Where were people shot?