Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, maybe, just from my side, the evidence leader's side, it's, I agree with the chair, in the circumstances every latitude has been extended, I mean at the end of the day the applicants are the ones who suffer, the onus is on them to present evidence that supports their application, there have been undertakings, but unfortunately it's difficult to schedule hearings around, I don't want to use the word empty promises, but certainly undertakings that are not carried out, the logistical implications, the financial implications are such that we need clarity and we need firm arrangements to be made so that we can properly plan these hearings, so from our side and from the logical officer's side, we have serious problems and, for example, if Mr Mphahlele and/or the PAC indicate they will only be ready next week, how do we set up, it's no doubt possible to set up another hearing, but obviously at great inconvenience and expense, so I'm in your hands, I'd be grateful, and we actually, from the evidence, the Amnesty Department evidence leader's side, we actually implore the PAC, as we did in March when we met with the general secretary, we are here to assist the PAC in whatever problems they may have in getting the evidence to the hearing, but we ask them to come forward with proper submissions and proper evidence, that we can conclude these matters.
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think, from what I learnt last Friday at a meeting of the TRC and from what I have been informed since, that, inconvenient as it may be, we should give them one last chance, but perhaps you, Mr Prior, can make arrangements with Mr Mbandazaya, as to where he, if he can contact his client and we, if the PAC does not come in the next few days, we ignore them, but we go on with this one.  I don't know where we would have to sit.   Where are the applicants in custody?

MR PRIOR: The present applicants are all at Fort Glamorgan in the East London area, so they are here, and I will make arrangements for the prison authorities to hold them here for the next at least week or so.

CHAIRPERSON: I would suggest till the end of next week, say, rather than find we've made arrangements and then we find they've disappeared.

MR PRIOR: I'll liaise with Correctional Services, I'm sure, they've accommodated us thus far, I'm sure that it won't be a problem.   Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If we are going to await, as we think we ought to, a general submission, I don't think it would be fair to ask any of the parties to make their addresses now, till they've heard what is included in that and been able to deal with it.

MR PRIOR: I agree, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We once again get to the stage that we adjourn this matter to a date to be arranged?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that we should also place on record our gratitude to Mr Mbandazaya for the sterling efforts he has made to bring about this submission of general propositions.   I think all of us who've had any dealings know how much he has tried himself in the last few weeks to achieve success in this regard, and if there's anything we can do to assist him in any way, he has only to approach us and we will do all we can, but I feel it would perhaps be better to leave matters in his hands than rather let people feel that he's acting on our behalf, but I leave the matter to him.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you suggest we do now, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence as far as I can take the Done Meyers and Mike Meyers matter.   We don't have anything scheduled for tomorrow, in the light of the adjournment of the Yellowwoods case, Mr Mthembu's case, we are then scheduled to commence on Wednesday.   Advocate Calitz said she was unable to be here before 11 o'clock, she will do her utmost to be here earlier, but asked for an indulgence that we start at 11:00 or soon thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think that we should rather be here before and ask her for an indulgence that she sees to get her before 11:00.   I know that she has, I would hate to call it a problem, she has a young... (intervention).

MR PRIOR: A very young baby, yes, (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: ...a very young baby to look after, one she must be inordinately proud, because I think this is the... (intervention).

MR PRIOR: It's an amnesty baby, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...first daughter?

MR PRIOR: First daughter, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After four sons.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, she... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: So if you could make contact with her and tell her that we will meet her request if necessary, but we would prefer if she could get here a bit earlier and we start at ten o'clock.

MR PRIOR: Yes.   Mr Chairman, in addition thereto, I brought it to your attention earlier in chambers that in respect of the King William's Town golf club attack, Mr Ray Rade, the member of parliament for King William's Town, had contacted me last week and had indicated that he wished to make submissions under oath to the committee in that matter on Wed..., and he will be here on Wednesday morning.   So... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: So we can start earlier with him.

MR PRIOR: And I've indicated that we'll be starting the hearing at nine o'clock, so to that extent we will start on time and Mr Van der Zi has indicated that his clients are aware of that date, he only has some problem with Mr Xundu, who seems to have been transferred around the country, but I'll leave that up to Mr Mbandazaya to sort out.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, it is true, I confirm what has been said by Mr Prior.   My clients are around the two other clients because also their case was postponed to this week, but unfortunately Major Xundu is not around, I couldn't get him until this morning, and he told me that he was in Umtata, from PE to Umtata, transferred to Umtata, but he's back in PE and he's leaving on Wednesday for a course, he's writing exams in the morning, in the afternoon he's leaving for a course until the end of June, but in any event, Mr Chairman, I indicated to Mr Prior that we will proceed with the matter.   I've contacted, I'll keep in touch with him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the evidence we are likely to have is such that if it is recorded and he's allowed to see a copy of the record, he will be able to deal with it adequately.
	Right, we'll adjourn till nine o'clock on Wednesday morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

<UNKNOWN>: 27TH APRIL 1998  -  DAY 2

MR PRIOR: We intended to hear the matters of the Yellowwood Hotel ...[intervention]
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible] Advocate Collett's matter.  We anticipated hearing Mr Jimmy Jones' evidence, that is Mr Ntonga's client.  An affidavit was handed to me late last night and that has been distributed amongst the Committee.  Miss Collett has also received a copy.  However, Mr Ntonga indicated to me this morning that Mr Jones will not be attending this morning because his employer in Butterworth, that is the Butterworth Municipality was loathe to release him in the absence of an official notice or a subpoena.
	May I place on record at this stage that I had several weeks ago prepared a notice in terms of Section 19 of the Act and we had endeavoured to serve that subpoena on Mr Jones at Butterworth at his place of employment and unfortunately he was not there and no-one was prepared at the Municipality to receive it on his behalf.  
	To cut a long story short, there seems to have been some difficulty in getting the subpoena to him and on that note he is not here and obviously there is nothing that I can do, other than try and serve a further subpoena upon him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Mbanjua coming here?

MR LAX: Mr Ntonga.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, sorry.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, Mr Ntonga indicated to me that he was coming to the hearing this morning.