Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if my memory serves me well it was the 6th of July 1988.  May I just check please, Chairman.  Mr Chairman, can we check that, whether we have a specific date during the lunch hour and inform you when we come back?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and likewise the date on which he was killed.

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If you know the date of one, then you'd know without difficulty ...

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly.  We will try to establish the exact date if possible.

CHAIRPERSON: And in what language was all this discussion and negotiation with Cele taking place.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when I ever spoke to him it would have been in English, but Mr Taylor spoke in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that his conversation or his discussion or questioning of Cele was in Zulu?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have the need for an interpreter.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mr Taylor spoke Zulu fluently, it was - he would have been handling that himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to ask of this witness?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got none.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

MR VISSER: Perhaps I could answer your question straight away, Chairperson, before Ms Thabethe starts.  The TRC Report, in volume 2 at page 131, places the date in July 1988.  No closer than that.  But we will still see whether we can find a closer date.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR VISSER: I seem to recall having read somewhere "6th of July", Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you'll let us know.  Have you any questions, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Just a few, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.
	Actually, Mr Wasserman it's one question.  How do you reconcile the evidence of Mr Botha and Vorster, that at no stage was Mr Cele assaulted and your evidence that he was assaulted by yourself in Swaziland and on the farm?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well I never saw either of them ever assault him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question clearly is that it seems that they didn't see you assault him.  In other words, there was no evidence of any assault as far as they were concerned, and you
have told us that you assaulted.  And I think the question is now, are you in a position to reconcile the difference between your evidence and their evidence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Oh, now I understand yes, Sir.  The assault in Swaziland, I would hardly even say that was an assault, that was a matter of first of all securing the man there.  Mr Vorster and Mr Botha weren't present in the farmhouse when I assault Dion Cele in the farmhouse.  They were not present, so they would not know, Mr Chairman.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just for the sake of clarity and for the record, Mr Botha did in fact say in his testimony that he does recall you
assaulting the deceased in the car, in the kombi when you were trying to subdue him at that point.  So just for the record, he did say that in fact.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Do you know what happened to the shell casings when you shot him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he would have been in the grave, I would have leant into the grave, I would imagine the "doppies" would have fallen into the grave.

MR LAX: But obviously you've no idea.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I have no idea.  Perhaps they were lost in the exhumation, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Wasserman, just on the issue of the interrogation.  On a question put to you by the Chairman, you responded that Mr Cele was fluent in Zulu.  What interests me was were the other interrogators fluent in Zulu?  Did he speak Zulu all the time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when I ever spoke to him he spoke to me in English.  I think when Mr Vorster and Mr Botha spoke to him he spoke in English, but when he spoke with Mr Taylor the entire proceedings would have been in Zulu, and they were in Zulu in my presence.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: It's the appropriate time to take the adjournment.  Mr Visser, we are going to adjourn for 45 minutes, we'll resume at a quarter to two.

MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, I wonder if I may ask for an indulgence till 2 o'clock, I have a problem that I have to rush back to the office because police headquarters have queried me and they would like an answer from me with regards to the queries of my further appearances on behalf of Col Taylor, before 3 o'clock this afternoon.  I'm terribly sorry to put the Committee in this position, but I will be back at 2 o'clock if it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We will not - you understand that you'll be proceeding on behalf of Col Taylor?

MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, the other applications, for instance the Thombi Khubeka matter, was orchestrated by Mr Taylor and in consultation with my learned colleagues here, they have felt and I have - well I have brought it to the police' attention that it might be of assistance if I do appear on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we can't deal with an application for amnesty on behalf of somebody who is deceased.

MR NEL: I realise that.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think that should eliminate that problem.

MR NEL: Very well, Mr Chair, I'll be back at quarter to two.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can try, if you can be back at quarter to, we'll resume at a quarter to two.

MR NEL: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS