Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR LEBEA: This is Mr van Tonder's car that I'm referring to.  We walked to that place, as I mentioned.  On our arrival, the garage is outside, we managed to take out the car and we put it close to the gate.  The car that I'm referring to is the car that we found at that place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you have keys for this car?

MR LEBEA: The keys were in the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now proceed.  What happened?  You said the others came and took things to the car, what happened thereafter?

MR LEBEA: We left Mr van Tonder and his wife there and we left.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.  Continue.

MR LEBEA: We left with everything that we took from there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what things did you take there?

MR LEBEA: Items that were taken there were the firearms, shotguns, money.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, how many shotguns?

MR LEBEA: I think it was one shotgun.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So why did you tell us you took shotguns, you left with shotguns, if it was only one?

MR LEBEA: We found a shotgun.  Two shotguns.  You should also realise that this happened quite a long time ago.  I would not be in a position to recall everything.  Just imagine yourself.  This happened in 1991, would you be in a position to recall every little detail?

CHAIRPERSON: To whom are you asking that question Sir?

MR LEBEA: It was not a question as such, I was just explaining that this happened quite a long time ago and I would not be in a position to recall everything that happened then.

CHAIRPERSON: Then please assist us, tell us what you remember and tell us that you cannot go any further because it's a long time ago and don't ask anybody or come with rhetorical questions that you should remember this has happened a long time ago.  We are here to consider whether you qualify for amnesty or not and it is not for rhetoric questions that we should answer in our decision.  We want to get more from you that would enable us to make up our minds whether this application should succeed or not.  I would request you to do that.

MR LEBEA: Thank you Chair, I will do so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were still mentioning the items and you were asked by a Member of the Committee how many shotguns did you take.  You were still mentioning things that you took away.  Can you proceed and tell the Committee how many actual shotguns did you take?  You remember you took them.

MR LEBEA: I think we took two shotguns.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue.  What else?

MR LEBEA: And money.  I said jewellery, two shotguns, money and the vehicle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, proceed.  You took those things, you went away.  Where did you go to?

ADV SANDI: Just before that - how much did you take?

MR LEBEA: I would not tell you, but according to the estimations of everything that we took, it could have been R26 350.  I'm referring to the value of all the things that we took.  That was according to the evidence in court.

ADV SANDI: I'm asking you about the money, the cash.  Didn't you say you found money there, cash?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: How much was that?

MR LEBEA: We did not count it at all.

ADV SANDI: Where was the money in the house?

MR LEBEA: I did not personally remove the money.  The money was taken by Theboho and the person who was assisting with carrying the goods to the car, I took some items, but not money.

CHAIRPERSON: Theboho would be Samuel Mokweti because I'm hearing the name for the first time here?

MR LEBEA: Donosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you took these things to the car and you went away, what did you do with this, where did you go to?

MR LEBEA: The intention was to take these goods to our Commander Mr Ncapai, but unfortunately as I mentioned already that I was injured, we went close to Freedom Score in Pelindaba and from there I was taken to the hospital and I gave out an order.   The night of the following day we were supposed to meet with Themba to hand over the goods to him, but because of the injury during this attack, I was supposed to be taken to the hospital and I ordered that these goods should not be placed at one place, they should be distributed so that if anything happens, they are not all recovered, they should be placed at different places.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell us, what happened, were you taken to hospital?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I was taken to hospital.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you told the Committee that you gave an order, where were you going to meet with Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: We were supposed to meet him the night after the attack.

ADV SANDI: Maybe you should try and take this stage by stage.  Who took you to the hospital?

MR LEBEA: Donosi and King took me to the hospital.

ADV SANDI: Now what happened when you came to hospital?  How long did you have to stay there and receive treatment?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall how long I stayed in the hospital.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When they were taking you to hospital, did they use the same transport that you took away from Mr van Tonder's property?

MR LEBEA: Yes, the same car was used.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did members of your unit know Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: The person who knew Themba Ncapai very well was myself and later he came to know the rest of them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Why did you say to - gave them instructions that the goods that were taken from Mr van Tonder's farm, should be distributed, not be placed in one place, instead of saying to them they must go and hand them over to Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: I think I mentioned that Themba Ncapai was well-known to me than to the other members and if I recall well, he met Donosi just one night.  As the person who had regular communication with him, I was the person who was supposed to meet him.  I'm the only person who knew where we were going to meet, how we were going to meet and when we were going to meet, that's why I did not order them to take the goods to Themba Ncapai and one other reason is because I'd already been injured and we were supposed to hide the tracks that would lead to us being arrested.

ADV SANDI: That is not very clear to me at all.  Just explain.  What exactly was the position at the time you committed this attack?  Was Themba Ncapai known only to you, Sir, or did you colleagues also know Themba Ncapai?  What was the position?

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain is this.  Themba Ncapai was known by me.  During the presentation of the crash course, he came to meet Donosi, but it was just one day.  Samuel Mokweti had also known him for one day.  King met him quite a few times, but it was through me, but the person who was well-known to Themba Ncapai, it was myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What eventually happened with these goods?  Did they eventually, Themba Ncapai, did he eventually get the goods?

MR LEBEA: Unfortunately  the goods were retrieved by the police, but the intention was to hand them over to Themba Ncapai.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How long after the robbery did the police get hold of the goods?  How long after the incident were you arrested?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall after how long were we arrested.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it a day, or a week, or a month, or a year?  Long afterwards, or shortly afterwards?

MR LEBEA: It was a very short time afterwards, but I do not recall well because I mentioned already that I got injured and I lost consciousness as I was taken to the hospital and after how many days were we arrested, I do not recall, but it was quite a short space of time.

ADV SANDI: Could it have been a week, a fortnight, are you able to say?

MR LEBEA: Sir, I do not want to estimate.

ADV SANDI: When you came back from hospital ..(intervention)

MR LEBEA: But it was not a long time.

ADV SANDI: When you came back from hospital, why did you not take those goods to Themba Ncapai?