Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did the leader give you a specific order: "Men, you must flee and you must keep on running"?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And those words or that instruction, you got directly from the leader himself?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: The Commandant came out, Jan de Wet, yes, that is right, because he came out of the office, he had a discussion with them, he came out and shook our hands and said that the war begins only now.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What did Jan de Wet do there?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Ask the question again please?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Johan de Wet, what did he do there?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Jan de Wet.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Jan de Wet, I am sorry.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: How do you mean what did he do there?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What did he do there, I accept it was in Ventersdorp and I accept that he was at Head Office.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.  He was with the group.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And there the leader specifically told you that you must flee, run?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct, and we must not let them catch us.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were then later arrested on whose farm?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was a lawyer who we consulted with and to give ourselves up.  It was in Britz, in the Britz area.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you then stay there from the end of April till the arrest, on that farm?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, we moved around.  I was even in Volksrust.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You and whom?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was myself, Abe Fourie and Albie Briers.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you ever phone Head Office and asked them what was going on?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Albie Briers at various times made calls to find out what was going on, must we give ourselves up, what is the position.
	He just gave feed back, or he said there were no problems, we were not being caught and things have not been going as it should, this is war and they said keep on saying, men, it is war, the worse is still coming.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But whom of the leadership gave you instruction to give yourself up?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That was Commandant Abie Fourie, myself and Albie Briers discussed this thing, because then we realised that these people misled us, nothing is happening.
	The people deceived us.  I gave everything up because you were influenced by these people and you are an adult.  There is no other word, but we were deceived.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Jan de Wet, was he with you on the run?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, he was also on the run and he was arrested only after us.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Koper Myburgh?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Koper Myburgh, I do not know when he was arrested.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was he with you on the run?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, not with us.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And Cliffie Barnard?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, not with us Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: While you were together, did you at any stage decide to establish a new organisation in order to take this struggle further?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No sir, we were AWB members and in my heart I was true.  I didn't have a double view, I was true and I believed in what I did and that is why I am here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the AWB?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Since when?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Since that time when I decided that I will give myself up, we were deceived.

CHAIRPERSON: During that time didn't you talk amongst yourselves to create or establish a new organisation?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you talk about it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, no, I didn't.  We saw then that the people deceived us.  From the CP, the Freedom Front, the AWB, everyone deceived us and used us.
	That is how I feel and that is how I feel still up to this day and I have no interest in their politics.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you feel that they used you?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier on, when I went into the Defence Force and the promises they made there to us, to strive for self determination, the way that they drilled it into us, I believed the people who were there, I am honest, sincere, I believed that it was my task to ensure that the white population must be protected.  That was my goal, I wanted to protect their lives.
	I wanted to protect the lives of my family members, because they made it clear to us the day with the fax that Brigadier Van der Merwe intercepted, that we will be killed if the government takes over.  I never saw the fax, but I accepted that these people are telling the truth.
	I did not doubt any Officer, I just believed that and I will do my bit.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not think you understand my question.  Did you believe in the same thing?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, we did, that is the way they talked about it.

ADV BOSMAN: But how could they have used you?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: What I mean is that we moved up when they gave us the instructions, we left our houses and jobs, I took my wife and children with us, out of the school, out of the home and I took them to a veld in the middle of a bush and I told them that we are walking into a Volkstaat and I believed it, and afterwards they didn't even know me.
	They threw us away.

MR MALAN: Mr Fourie, is there any reason why you can say that the people that you say misled you or deceived you, were not as convinced as you were and that they maybe at the same time realised that it is not working?  Why do you say that they believed you, could they not have believed the same way you did?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: They told everyone then that we are moving up.  A lot of people moved up and the people who told us about it, didn't.  I am talking about the leaders.

MR MALAN: The Generals in Staff, were they not there?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, they were present there.  But that is why I feel according to myself, I am talking now of the Generals in Staff as a whole, because they gave us instructions even before we moved up, it is war, this election must be stopped, take your family, leave your homes, move up.  They don't even look after my family while I was in jail, and that is what I mean, they deceived us.

MR MALAN: But what you are saying now is that they deserted you, they did not deceive you with the purpose or with the goals, they did not deceive you with the goals?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, but they just threw us away.  And then you feel that what was their actual purpose with you, why?

MR MALAN: So you just feel that you were deceived and left in the lurch, that when you wanted them to assist you and look after your wife and children, they did not do anything?  That is why you are angry or disappointed?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Angry, I would not say, yes, to be honest, disappointed.

MR MALAN: Because they did not help you after you were in trouble, but do you think they had other objectives in comparison to what they told you, that is now about the Volkstaat.  Did you think that they would not do it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: While we were in prison, those people, if they were really leaders and if I was a leader, I would come to the front and talked about how I influenced my people, and how I gave the instructions, and where it comes from.  That is how I feel.

MR MALAN: You see, why I ask you these questions, for me it is a very difficult thing to understand, I am a member of an organisation.  My organisation has got leaders, I accept my leaders but I am a member of the organisation because I believe in the organisation.
	My leader is also a member of the organisation, because he believes in the organisation and then to say they gave us instructions, you were part of those instructions, you thought like they did?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.