Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've go not questions.  Thank you, Sir.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, do you have any questions that you'd like to ask Mr Radebe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mr Radebe?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, just before Mr Wills starts and just that the point doesn't go lost, as far as the identification of Mr Radebe is concerned, regarding the daughter, I was just wondering whether it would be adequate for you to give a description on the record or whether we could ask for the daughter perhaps to be measured, or the length and the girth, so that we can have some caparison for the record, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kubheka, do you mind standing up again please.  It's difficult from where I'm standing, to estimate a height, but perhaps if - Ms Kubheka, if you could perhaps tell us - do you know what your height is?  You don't know the measurements.  It's difficult for me to estimate because one estimates 5'6" or 5'5" or 5'7", it a big difference and I certainly won't be able to estimate.  She's not small, she not short and she's not slender.  Perhaps, Mr Wills, I don't know what could be done to get an arrangement as to her measurements.

MR WILLS: If I could just deal with this during the tea adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we can do that, thank you.

MR VISSER: That would helpful, Chairperson, and perhaps Mr Wills can find out how old this person is as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you, Ms Kubheka, thank you very much, sorry to inconvenience you.

MR WILLS: May I continue, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR WILLS: Mr Radebe, I understand from your evidence that you didn't see the deceased in this matter, Ntombi Kubheka, on many occasions, is that right?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: How many times did you see her?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Not more than five times

MR WILLS: And this was thirteen years ago?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Mr Wills we know that.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So how is it that you are able to give such an accurate, or how are you able to describe her size?  What makes you remember clearly that for example, the daughter who stood up is heavier than her?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that Ms Kubheka was heavier than the daughter.

MR WILLS: I apologise, Mr Chairperson.
	How is it that you are able to say to the Committee that Ms Kubheka was heavier than the daughter, for example?  What makes you so sure?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: In terms of my observations they are not of the same size.  I stated that I have a problem with my memory, but my recollection says Ms Kubheka is a little bit heavier compared to the daughter.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that you might be mistaken in your observation?

INTERPRETER: Sorry Chairperson, we have other people speaking and they interfere.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can repeat the question, apparently there were two people speaking at the same time.  Mr Wills, if you could just repeat your question.

MR WILLS: Are you implying that you could be mistaken with your identification?  Because I'll tell you why, because the family of the deceased in this matter, are convinced that she was a lot smaller and a lot lighter than the individual in respect of whom you said that she was heavier.  In other words, the family who know her well, say that she wasn't as big as the daughter.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: At the time when I saw her, in terms of my own observations, she was more weightier than the daughter.

MR WILLS: Now did you have any direct communications with Hentie Botha, between you and Botha, or were your instructions always given through a third person?

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to this operation, this particular operation?

MR WILLS: Yes, in relation to this operation.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is correct, because two propositions were put to you?  Did you have direct dealings with Hentie Botha, in regard to this operation, or were your dealings with him through some other person, such as Coetzer?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, if I understand the question well, the question was saying is there any third person or was I speaking directly with Mr Botha.  So my answer is, there was always an intermediary between myself and Mr Botha, but they would send us but they did not trust us so much.  So even during the operation they would tell us to keep quiet, that if their operation is exposed, they will know that it's us because we were not trusted.

MR WILLS: And who would tell you this?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That whites were not trusting us?

MR WILLS: Ja, who would tell you this?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: You would hear by the language used, that we would be told that, because we were involved in the particular operation, that we should not even tell our colleagues or any other person who was involved in that operation.  Therefore, that was a sign that we were not trusted.  That was my understanding.  I would tell my colleague that what I was doing, but we were instructed not to expose this to any other person who was not involved.

MR WILLS: What I'm asking you is, who gave those instructions directly?  Which white person in other words, told you that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Firstly it was Ras, then thereafter it was Joe Coetzer.

MR LAX: I don't think you understood the question.  The question was, which white person told you not to say anything about this operation?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: All Vlakplaas white members informed us that we should not expose anything about the operation.

MR LAX: This operation?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Not only this one, but in all operations where we were involved.

MR LAX: Yes, but Mr Radebe, we're dealing with this operation.  Who told you not to say a word about this operation?  If you can't remember, say you can't remember.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember who is that person, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Is it possible that Mr Botha had spoken to you directly and you can't remember?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: As I understand your evidence, and I just want you to confirm this, as regards the purpose of the operation that day when Mrs Kubheka was abducted, the purpose of the operation was clearly to take Ms Kubheka and deliver her to the white superiors, is that right?  You're clear on that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.  Mr Samuel, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Radebe?

MR SAMUEL: Yes, Mr Chairman.  In view of the fact that he's been with my client, it will be necessary for me to ask him certain questions and to put my client's version to him.  If I may proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	Mr Radebe, you told this Commission as at today, that you suffered with various illnesses, like high blood pressure and sugar and things like that and also that your memory is not so good, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now I want to put it to you that my client has no such illnesses or lapse of memory, he will tell this Commission that he has a clear recollection of this incident involving Ms Kubheka, and he will say in fact that everything you have told this Commission so far, almost everything is what Jimmy Mbane will confirm.  However, in regard to the colour of the motor vehicle that was driven on that day, the kombi, it was in fact white and blue.  Do you still maintain that the kombi was blue?