Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: There is no difference between Mr O'Farrell and van der Spuy because they are both police and ANC enemies and my enemy.

MR WILLS: Now, you mentioned in your previous evidence which is on record, that you had a significant amount of what you termed as police harassment which led you to having a meeting with Mr Chris Hani, do you recall that?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do remember.

MR WILLS: Now, what was the purpose of your meeting with Mr Hani?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: My purpose was that I wanted to leave my area and go and be trained again, and also to tell him about the situation and that I was not safe in that area as a commander, the police were harassing me more.  That was the purpose why I met with Mr Chris Hani.

MR WILLS: At that time, is it not so that certain training was taking place in what was at that stage I think still called the Transkei, which was led by Mr Holomisa?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is so.

MR WILLS: What was Mr Hani's response to you in respect of your discussions with him concerning this?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: He didn't want me to go and be trained again in Transkei, he said that I had been working there for quite a long time before I came back home, and he said I survived within the country.   He said I was supposed to defend the MK and ANC supporters.   He didn't want me to go to the Transkei and also he said I must protect myself if I had encountered danger or any danger, if I thought I was going to be killed.  That is what he said.

MR WILLS: Now, returning to the incident, sorry, just to finish that, so in consequence you actually didn't go down to the Transkei for further training?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, I did not.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now returning to the incident itself and Madam Chair, if you will excuse me, I just want him to deal with certain aspects because the incident has been dealt with in length on the previous occasion, there are just certain aspects I am going to refer to specifically.  There is evidence by Mr O'Farrell that at the stage after you had shot Mr van der Spuy, that he was attacked by a number of people.  What is your view on that?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, he was attacked, Mr O'Farrell, it is true.

MR WILLS: When exactly did this attack take place to your knowledge?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When he came back with the ambulance.  After he came back with the ambulance.

MR WILLS: So it is your submission to this Committee that prior to you shooting at him and him running away, he was not attacked, he was only attacked at a later stage when he came back with the ambulance, is that your recollection of events?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: So in fact when Mr O'Farrell says in his evidence that he was attacked and it was as a result of that attack that prevented him from helping his colleague immediately, you dispute that?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is not true.

MR WILLS: Just, in conclusion, what was your position as regards MK at the time of this incident, ie on the 29th of October 1992?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I was the commander of the soldiers in the Umkomaas area.  I was an overall commander, an overall commander of all the MK members in the Umkomaas area.

MR WILLS: What was your view generally of the South African Police at that stage?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Police were the enemies of the MK because they were killing us and also we were killing them.  It was the same.  They were combating us, they didn't want us to overthrow the apartheid regime.  Because of that reason they were enemies to us MK's and ANC as a whole.

MR WILLS: And, yes, thank you Madam Chair, Honourable Members, there are no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  My instructions Chairperson, from Mr O'Farrell are that he wouldn't want to put any questions to the applicant.    He however, would like the
Committee at a later stage, to address the Committee in respect of the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand how he proposes to do that without putting questions to Mr Sambo.  I mean why would he address the Committee in respect of the evidence given by Mr Sambo, if there is anything that he is not satisfied with in his evidence, I mean that must be ventilated here now, that is procedural, isn't it?

MS MTANGA: It is so Chairperson.  When I ascertained from him what it is that he would like to address to the panel, it is merely to state that the applicant is lying and he feels he should put this before the Panel on his own, not through me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, isn't that a subject for argument?

MS MTANGA: That is my understanding Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't he lay a basis for that argument procedurally?  If he is going to make such a submission, shouldn't he actually lay a basis at this point, when he now has an opportunity to put questions to Mr Sambo, to indicate precisely that he does not agree with his evidence and the reason why he does not agree with his evidence?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, may I perhaps be given just a second to speak to Mr O'Farrell?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you.   Thank you Chairperson.   My instructions from Mr O'Farrell is that I must put, he would like me to put something to the applicant and then we will leave the rest for argument at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: At least afford him an opportunity to respond at this stage.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sambo, my instructions from Mr O'Farrell, it is to put it to you that you are lying before this Panel when you say your intention was to kill him, what do you say to this?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Would you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr O'Farrell is saying to you, the one who is right in front of you, if you are telling this Committee that you shot at him because you wanted to kill him, you are not telling the truth, you are lying?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is not so.

MS MTANGA: I put it to you that at the time, you heard Mr O'Farrell's evidence that once you got possession, once you gained possession of the gun which you grappled, which you were grappling with with Mr van der Spuy, you bandied that firearm in front of their faces, and it is his evidence that if you wanted to kill him, you would have killed him then, what do you say to this?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is not so.

MS MTANGA: Mr O'Farrell further contends your evidence that you fired shots at him as he was running away from the scene towards the farm, what do you say to this?

CHAIRPERSON: Towards the farm or the mealie field?

MS MTANGA: Towards the mealie field, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Sorry Ms Chairperson, I didn't get that question.

MS MTANGA: Mr O'Farrell disputes your evidence that you fired shots at him as he was running away from the scene towards the mealie fields, what do you say to this?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is not so.

MS MTANGA: Finally, it is his position that you are fabricating this evidence to create an impression that your intention was to really kill him when it was not so, what do you say to this?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is not so.

MS MTANGA: This ends my questioning, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Mr Wills, before affording you an opportunity to re-examine, I should allow the Panel to put certain questions to Mr Sambo and your re-examination will then encapsulate questions that would have come from the panel.

MR WILLS: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, Mr Sambo has led evidence with regard to the fact that he was actively involved as the overall
 commander of the MK structure at Umkomaas during October of 1992, and we just wanted to find out if you are aware of when the MK structure actually disbanded?