Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Where they had picked her up, I cannot confirm,
Chairperson, but she was brought to Battery Beach and that is where we arrested her.

MR HUGO: You see, when I read your statement, it was not clear to me and your answer makes it even less clear to me.  I understood from your evidence that she was taken to Battery Beach by Mr Mbane and that you expected that other people would be in the vehicle and it was eventually just the two of them.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR HUGO: May I ask you, was there any arrangement that Mr Radebe would be involved in the abduction of Ms Khubeka?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall that Mr Radebe was in the vehicle.  My recollection is that Mr Mbane had picked her up.  Where he had picked her up I don't know but that he brought her to Battery Beach where we had already been in position...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can I just interpose if I may?  As I understand your evidence, the whole purpose of this meeting had nothing to do with Khubeka, it had in fact to do with someone else that you were under the impression was going to be abducted at that point in time.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the arrangement was that they, or Khubeka would introduce Jimmy to the terrorists, that was the purpose thereof and the meeting, according to the information which they conveyed to us, would happen at or take place at Battery Beach, that is why we took up position and waited at Battery Beach, that Jimmy would arrive with her and the terrorist.

MR LAX: The terrorist, not Khubeka?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR LAX: This version that's been put to you is about the abduction of Khubeka.

MR HUGO: When Khubeka was loaded over into your vehicle, what happened to Mbane?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: My knowledge is that Mbane departed from there.  That is my recollection.

MR HUGO: Yes, where did he leave to?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I think both the vehicles went back to Winkelspruit.

MR HUGO: I do not want to dwell on this for too long.  Let me just, for the sake of completion, put Mr Radebe's version to you.  He says that Mr Dube, himself and Mr Mbane and Mrs Khubeka went in their vehicle - were taken in their vehicle from the station to Winkelspruit and at Winkelspruit, at the old railway police's shooting range, the white members, amongst whom you were one, approached them and took her from the vehicle.  What is your recollection with regard to that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, that is not how I remember these events Chairperson.  I think Mr Radebe is confusing this with other operations.

MR HUGO: More specifically he says the white members who fetched her were amongst others Wasserman, Visagie, yourself, Sam du Preez and van der Westhuizen.  Are these persons who were indeed later present at Winkelspruit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Then Mr Radebe says approximately 100 metres from the office, if we may refer to it as such, the little office where she was in, they stood, he, Mr Dube and Mr Mbane and they could not hear what was going on in that office.  Can you recall that they were outside?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I don't know where they were outside but they were definitely not inside that room.

MR HUGO: And Mr Radebe's version is furthermore that during the interrogation Mr Joe Coetzer often came out and came to speak to them.  Can you recall that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is possible Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And Mr Radebe's version leads furthermore that his recollection was that the interrogation lasted about 2 hours long.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, that is not my recollection as to how long it had taken place.

MR HUGO: And then Mr Radebe will further state that at a stage Joe Coetzer came out and indeed told them that Nthombi Khubeka had died of a heart attack, can you recall that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall, I was not present.

MR HUGO: And then finally, Mr Radebe's version is that before they departed back to C R Swart, his recollection is that Mr Spyker Myeza had arrived there and went directly to the white members and that is the last that he heard of this operation.  At which stage did Spyker arrive there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Because we remained at Winkelspruit for a few days after that, Mr Radebe's version is that Myeza arrived when it started getting dark and then he went to speak to the white members.

MR HUGO: That is the same day on which he was informed that Khubeka had died of a heart attack.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is not correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: May I just ask you, what was the location of the buildings at the old shooting range?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, if I may ask, Mr Hugo, were you at the scene, so I can explain it to you?

MR HUGO: Yesterday we tried to find the ruins but it was difficult.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If you enter at the gate the buildings were on your right-hand side and the shooting range had a cover wall which was right in front of you when you came in by the gate.

MR LAX: Just remember it is being translated and Mr Wills will want to try and make notes.  I'm also just struggling a little bit.  I'm just going straight into Afrikaans.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The shooting range was located just in front of the river, I cannot recall the name of the river.  The road turned in left to the shooting range, approximately 150 metres from the gate, there was a high-walled building which served as a shooting wall.  On the right-hand side approximately 100 metres from the gate, there was a building structure of sorts of which the back of the building was approximately 10 to 20 metres from, I don't know what road there is, is it the South Coast Road?  Not the freeway but the old South Coast Road.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time was it - it was no longer used as a shooting range.  Was it abandoned, did public have access to it, or was it sealed off?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, it was the states premises, public did not have access through the gate and the building consisted of in total, the length of the building or I would say 15 metres x 3 metres in width.  The block on the right-hand side was ablution facilities and then there was a part 5 x 3 which was just under a roof which served as a place to sit and then there was a part 5 x 3, a storage room on the left-hand side.  Adjacent to that there was a cement floor with a steel structure which had no roof.  It was approximately 40 square metres, the surface of it.  A tarpaulin had been pulled over it and that is what we used for sleeping facilities.

MR HUGO: May I just ask  you these buildings, were they often used to accommodate askaris when they were busy with operations in Durban and vicinity?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, this was the first time and then only for the purpose of a specific operation.

MR HUGO: I will tell you why I asked that, because Mr Radebe will say that they did not sleep there and that they slept at the dog units barracks, which was adjacent to C R Swart police station.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it's my recollection that the rest of the team of askaris who rendered service in Durban spent their evenings there, but the smaller groups ... (indistinct) Mbane, Dube had indeed slept there.

MR HUGO: And then with regard to Mr Mbane's version is that he obtained a whole bag of arms, AK47s to hand over to Nthombi.  You have already testified about this after Mr Visser had led you.  Do you have any knowledge of any such transaction?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I did not have any knowledge of such a transaction.

MR HUGO: And I do not want you to speculate but based on your experience, if such a bag of AK47s was just handed over to her, it could have had dire consequences.