Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lesotho, I am going to stop here this time and I would like to ask you some questions please.  Perhaps, we can come back to where you have got to.  I want to go back to the time that, you said earlier on where the Gadaffis seemed to be killing many people and that something needed to be done.  Is this the time when you became a member of the Mazimzim group?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: As I have explained, the Mazimzim issue, Mazimzim was not an organisation in 1990 and the Gadaffi as well, they were not an organisation in 1990.  In 1985 and 1986 I was the Chairperson of AZASIM.  They called AZASIM, Mazimzim in short.  They assumed that before all this we were all members of AZASIM, but there was no AZASIM then.  We called the Gadaffis because their leader was Gadaffi and therefore we all called them Magadaffi.  At that time there was no, we were all members of the ANC Youth League at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you, besides the brother that was killed, Klaas, do you have any other brothers?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: Are you talking about relatives or friends?

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about, no brothers.

SPANKIE LESOTHO: Yes, I do have an elder and a younger brother.

CHAIRPERSON: And their names are?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: The other one is Toko and Boy.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
21 S LESOTHO

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to date these, can you just tell us again about when your, what month was your wife killed?  Yes, sorry.  First of all your brother, when was he killed?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: If I can briefly explain.  I think Tahlita was killed in February.

CHAIRPERSON: What year?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: In 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: And your brother?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: He was killed in August 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said you had a child as well, a six year old child at the time.  Was your child alright?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: Yes, that is my child.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask you one more question about, you talk about Willie.  Who is this Willie?  What is his surname?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: I do not remember his surname, but I think one of the people who are here might tell.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will ask some other people later on.  Thank you very much.  I would appreciate it if you could actually tell us something about Vincent Maposa, Philiman Entola and Soloman Plangeni.  Do you remember those three people?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: To tell the truth, the one I know is the Maposa person because I am friend with his brother and even his family, but the story I know is the police and some of our group were involved in that incident where my younger brother was involved because he was arrested about the Maposa incident.  My elder brother, also, was detained.  I am not able to give a full account of what has happened because after what happened to me I saw that the best thing, I should disassociate myself alone from the whole group.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
22 S LESOTHO

CHAIRPERSON: My last question is and, I am sorry I interrupted you, but you were coming to the point where peace was being made between the different factions.  We heard earlier on of the involvement of the ANC and certain peoples names were mentioned.  Is that what you were also going to talk about?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: Yes, I was going to explain the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I have no further questions.  Ms Seroke.  Mr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.  I just want ask you one or two questions if you do not mind.  Before I ask the questions I just want to be quite frank and honest with you.  I know that what you explained now, the account that you gave of what happened to you and members of your family is a very sad and terrible story and a very tragic story to lose a brother in the way in which you lost your brother and a wife and all the consequences of that.  The context in which that took place as you mentioned and others also gave an account of this was this conflict between different groupings within one organisation.  We have heard many accounts now of the Mazimzims and Gadaffis and different explanations for their origins and what they did.  Their different positions, beliefs and so forth.
 One of the things that the Commission has to do is, on the basis of the statements which we get from people, we have to make findings as to whether people are victims of gross human rights violations or not and in many of the accounts which people give of violations, they also mention those who they believe they were the violaters, so caller perpetrators.  Before we make a finding it is the responsibility of the Commission to inform those who were 
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
23 S LESOTHO
named as perpetrators in event that there will be adverse consequences for them if they are named as people responsible.  This also has implications for the whole question of amnesty.  You know that the Commission also has an Amnesty Committee which is specially there for those people who may have committed gross human rights violations to apply for amnesty if these events took place.  These violations took place as a result of the conflicts of the past.  What we have been hearing here, it is a very difficult and complex issue because on the one hand people are named as victims and in another context, they come up as perpetrators.  I have to point out to you that we actually have a statement here.  I am going to, because the person is going to be coming later, after you have actually given your account.  I think it is necessary for you to actually hear what the person says and, perhaps to ask for your response.   This person speaks about Vincent Mapai, but he also deals with assault of Mtolo, Philiman Sonto, Maposa, Vincent Mapai, but he also deals with the assault and the shooting of Emlangeni Solomon Sipho.  These are names that Dr Randera mentioned and he asked you if those names were familiar to you.  
 The person in the statement goes forward and continues and says that these people were abducted by the Mazimzim gang.  The people who were abducted were members of the Gadaffi group.  Now the names of the Mazimzim gang who abducted the victims were, there are a number of names and your name is mentioned as well.  Spankie Lesotho, Boy Lesotho, all from Khutsong and some other names I mentioned.  The person go on, the statement, to say that Solomon Maglangkeni was hacked with pangas before driving away to a 
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
24 S LESOTHO
place where those who abducted were to be killed.  The victims were taken to a dam outside Khutsong.  However, before reaching the dam the combi and the van were stopped by the SAP.  According to the survivor, Vincent Maposi, the polices intention of stopping the two vehicles was to find out if the people they were looking for had been found.  The Mazimzim gang told them that they did find the people.  The policemen's names were as follows.  Siphisizwo and Steve Motabede of Khutsong Police Station.  
 The victims were taken to Skavene Dam just outside Khutsong.  The police accompanied the Mazimzim gang to the dam.  When they got there they started beating the victims with sticks, iron rods and pangas.  The members of the SAP were also beating the victims.  Vincent Maposi collapsed after they beat him.  He along, with Solomon Mlangkeni were loaded into van as corpses.  However, Vincent was not dead, he was just unconscious.  Solomon Mlangkeni died from a bullet wound on his head.  Is there anything that you want to say in connection with that statement?