Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

MR LIEBENBERG: Thanks Wendy, it's a last quote that Iforgot to give and I think it links onto something I feel quiteseriously about I said at the end of it but then I was into thepracticalities of how do we look at civil military relations.
"I dedicate this submission to brave people who in ordernot to relive past pain and experiences and to live life to it'sfullest and most meaningful of which I know at least one and thatone excludes me obviously.  I've chosen not submit evidence beforethe Commission maybe their choice to cope with life after painand to take part in reconstructing a humane society is a realllyheroic one."
 It makes me think about something that Rocky Williams mentionedfrom the Defence Secretariat when we were discussing the issuesof society trying to transform itself from authoritarianism tohuman democracy and that is,
"We should not forget those people that in a way haven'tbeen immediately or directly touched by the process but in a secondaryway have been touched by the history and in a way have alreadymade peace with that and try to live a meaningful life."
 What I'm saying here is maybe one should not forget that there'sa lot of walking wounded out there and they're not necessarilythe veterans, and they're not necessarily people who have livedthrough the immediate and direct side of killing, but those peopleare also part of the broader nation and the nation of citizensand in a way if the TRC can take those people along and not necessarilyimmediately in this process but in how we deal with the reportand afterwards how those reports go to the people in the streetthen we have achieved a lot.  That apart from the practical thingsthat I think a report like ours like the South African TRC isin a much better position to supply practical suggestions on dealingwith not only being able to recall the memory but also preventinga similar experience.  I think we're in a stronger position thanArgentina or Chile in terms of our experience in what we can offerthe South Africans in the future.

WENDY ORR: Thanks, Tim?

MR LEDGERWOOD: Hi, somebody's been through all of this.  I think the thing that gives me the most hope this afternoonis hearing that the SANDF and another civilian group want to startgetting veterans together.  My own healing started long beforeI came to the TRC when I climbed onto the Internet and found somebodywho is a Vietnam veteran counsellor and one of the things I learntthrough him is that it is critically important to get veteranstalking to each other, and it's because of this feeling of alienationand dissonance this feeling - I mean people often say to me whatdo you feel about it and for me it's, no I didn't feel it somebodyelse felt it, and I understand that this is very common and whenyou can talk to other people who have been through those feelingsyour healing can start.  And I think that in purely practicalterms that the healing of veterans is up to the veterans themselves. It is up to people like the SANDF who now include people fromAPLA, Plan, MK.   We can start talking to each other and I thinkthat these two final presentations here to-day have given me themost hope of all.  There are other people out there who feel likeI do and we can talk to them.

WENDY ORR: Thank you.  Keith has indicated that Mrs MaryBurton would like to make a comment and as she is a fellow CommissionerI will allow her that indulgence.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  I'm sorry to trade on my positionto get an extra privilege.  It's been a very rich and remarkableday full of all sorts of insights and we've learnt an enormousamount. I'd like say how grateful I think the whole Commissionshould be for those who put so much time and energy into organisingto-day.  But I do think there's a voice which is missing, andI know it's not for want of trying on the part of those who haveorganised to-day and that it the voice of the, according to ProfessorSeegers' figures must be something like maybe half a million ofpeople who actually served as conscripts in the old SADF and manyof those people have not come to a position such as the view thatwe have heard to-day from most people.  We heard from people whowere apposed to conscription from the beginning or who throughtheir experiences were brought face to face with things that changedtheir minds, but there are many, many citizens of South Africawho did their military service and who still view themselves ashaving fought a good fight, as having upheld the safety of theState, as having opposed communism in a broad sense and who arestill part of our country and who have to be taken into accountas we move into a process of reconciliation and unity.  Theirviews also need to be part of the whole stream of coming together. And when we talk about where we go forward we have to be knowledgeableof that view as well.
 So perhaps as part of the broad reconciliation challenge thatlies ahead of this country over many, many years is the bringingtogether of all the veterans and that is a very big task, notone that this Commission can handle by itself, but one which hasto be faced in building national unity.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Mary that contribution was certainlyworth allowing you the indulgence for, it's one which I thinkperhaps we tend to forget.  There are very, very, very many menwho have been taught how to be violent and how to kill who viewthat as a normal part of life and they need to be part of thishealing process as well.
 Before I hand over to Piet who is going to close to-day's sessionI think I just want to say that I view to-day very much as thefirst step in a very long journey and a process, but I think whatwe have achieved to-day is bringing together a number of peoplewho really care about the issues, who really care about thoseveterans, who are suffering both physically and from PTSD, whocare about the people who have become disillusioned and I challengeall of you who have been here to-day to maintain contact witheach other and to pursue the ideas which Ian is presenting inthe form of the South African Veterans Association however itplays itself out and inasmuch as the Truth and ReconciliationCommission can assist in facilitating, advising and training,we will do so, but don't please don't look to us to be the finalsolution because we cannot be, but certainly our expertise interms of training and facilitation and just bouncing ideas aroundis available to you.
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