Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir.  You see Sir I had a chairman and it was the chairman's function to report to this Western Province JMC, to explain to them what the issues were.  I had no open ticket or I had no phone line or I had no communication with the State Security Council.

MR NTSEBEZA: And was there an occasion when there was a direct communication from the State Security Council to your S-JMC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir, no.  At the previous investigation I was also given documents which I received via people from the Western Province JMC.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, no I appreciate that.  Now what was - in what did you then see your link, if any, to for instance a structure like the Gesaamentlike Veiligsheid Staf?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No I had no link with them whatsoever.  The Gesaamentlike Veiligsheid Staf they were situated at the State Security Council.  They also had their structures up at the top, I didn't even know who they were.  I personally didn't know those people.

MR NTSEBEZA: Right.  Now you do mention in paragraph 7 ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Pardon?

MR NTSEBEZA: In paragraph 7 of your statement you've mentioned that there were four components in all levels of the JMC down to the level of the Mini-JMC, did you get that reference?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Pardon?

MR NTSEBEZA: Have you got that reference?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Paragraph 7?

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: The whole of paragraph 7?

MR NTSEBEZA: Where you say there were, as I understand you, four components in all levels ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Of the JMC.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well up to the level of the Mini-JMC.

MR NTSEBEZA: What were these structures and what were their functions?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: 7.1...

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It was constitution, economic and a welfare component.  The constitutional, the previous witness here today spelt out what his function in the constitutional role was, but that was on the top level, upper level.  On our level we didn't actually have big issues such as this hearing, what this hearing is about, because that was discussed, as I hear today, at the Western Province JMC.  Now if it was necessary for instance at schools where there would be a problem at the school and the school were to have some security personnel because the school was having damages or whatever then we would inform the constitutional people about that problem.
 Economic again, it's a job creation and I think here in Epping a training centre, which is also one of the centres which we referred people to if there was.  And the welfare component in that first paragraph, 7.1, is where the National Health Department had a programme which I cannot elaborate on, but I know they had a programme of looking after the health of the people.  
 Those were various other role players which I had to deal with.  
 And 7.2, the Communications Committee was purely, as far as I can give the evidence, as far as I know, is that they were responsible for making press statements after they had discussed a press statement with the chairman.  And they then had also discussions with the liaison officials of other government departments.
 7.3 Sir, as far as the Joint Information Centre is concerned, or Committee, that consisted of National Intelligence people and Security Police as well as Military Police, but they were a Committee on their own and they would give us every morning a report about the security situation, and very well so whatever the flashpoints were.
 Then the Security Committee at 7.4 consisted of, as I said there, the South African Police, the South African Railway Police, the South African Defence Force, the Riot Unit, Provincial Administration, Divisional Councils, Civil Defence and so forth.  And those were the role players in the four components Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now this security component was that what was called VEIKOM?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now in your capacity as secretary of the S-JMC what relation, if any, did you have with these structures, the ones that you have mentioned?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well as secretary I used to give them copies of the minutes(?) which I had to hold every morning, give them copies of the security report that was handed in at the meeting.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Did you receive anything from them?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: From the Information Committee, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: From the Security Committee, VEIKOM, did you get any sort-of feedbacks or reports ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.  After the identification of certain flashpoints were made they would then go to their own, which were senior people at their various Mini-JMCs.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Did you get any situation reports as secretary of the  ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes, and then they had to work out their own planning, whatever the planning was, and then that copy of that would come back to me and then there would be a joint document so that everybody knew what was going on.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  And would that document coming from your S-JMC then be forwarded to the Western Province JMC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Not necessarily.

MR NTSEBEZA: Not necessarily.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It was not necessarily, if they had any say in the matter, it was up to the chairman Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  But would it?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It could have, it could have ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: It could have happened, I see.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: But can I explain the Western Cape JMC.  At the time there were two Police Divisions, the one was in the Boland, the old Western Province and the other one was in the Peninsula.  That's why they also didn't sit with us in the same building when they had their meetings.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Now for instance what was the nature of the reports insofar as they pertained to Crossroads and KTC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: The reports that I received was, as I said, the security situation about the flashpoints, and if I can get the document then we can go through it, but it's merely as Mr du Toit has said, what is to be expected and so forth. And that they would discuss, if there were discussions but they were - and then the security committee would then be given definite instructions by the chairman to go out, patrol the area and if there had to be combined, a combined operation, for instance if Wynberg was quiet those people would come through and assist if it was necessary, or if Cape Town was quiet then those planning which they had done in their own operational centres at their own planning committees would then come back to me and then I would complete a one compiled document.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Did you ever receive any feedback as to what sort of action should be taken as part of the strategy of dealing with the unrest situation against, for instance, the Comrades?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Against the Comrades?

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir, I never received anything like that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you saying there wasn't at all, at any stage, feedback that came to you in your capacity as secretary of the S-JMC in the Western Cape ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: In the Mini- sorry Sir, the Mini-JMCs came back to me.  I was at the Sub.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja, in your capacity as secretary thereof.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you saying you never got any feedback from the structures?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Below me Sir?

MR NTSEBEZA: Below you.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: As to what action ought to be taken against for instance the Comrades as part of your strategy to contain the violence in the ...(intervention)