Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR NEL: Are we quite sure now or are you quite sure now today as you sit here, that the three persons that took the body from the room was Miyeza, Mr du Preez and Mr Wasserman?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR NEL: So once again if somebody would take notes of an apparent conversation, would it be incorrect if it states the following, and I'm referring you once again to Exhibit J, page 2 in the middle of the page where you say, or where it is said
"Later the evening whilst we were torturing her, she died."
and then what I'm specifically referring you to is:
"Coetzer from Vlakplaas, Botha was CR Swart and Miyeza ('n A/O, which is a Warrant Officer) picked her up and put her in the kombi and left."
this would be totally incorrect?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it is incorrect.

MR NEL: So if Capt de Jongh took these notes in a conversation with you and he kept these notes, then once again he must have thought this up by himself?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What is written there is incorrect and all my statements are written in English.

MR NEL: What was the normal amount of remuneration that you would have received for an operation of this nature, if any?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It would depend on the kind of operation.

MR NEL: Did you hear the evidence of Mr Botha in-chief, which we find on page 1725 of the record, in the middle of the page where Mr Samuel asked him about the R7 000 payment allegedly paid to you by Taylor, where he said that
"Rewards of R7 000 were not paid out because the highest amount that could be paid out which could be approved by Security Head Office, was R2 500 per arrested terrorist.  That was the maximum amount for such a person."
Did you hear that when he testified to ...(intervention)

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He was wrong, that was not the first time to get this amount of money in Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in any event even on the evidence that we've heard here there was more than one person arrested, we've heard of Sbu, we've heard of the chap at the false roadblock and then, although it's disputed, a third one and then also the deceased.  So that would, if it was R2 500 per head ...

MR NEL: I will leave it at that, Mr Chairperson.
	How many operations did you do in the Durban area, if you can recall?  Or take part in?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember unless if I refer to my statement.

MR NEL: Well is it one, two, ten, twenty, approximately?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I said I cannot remember unless if I read my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you come down to Durban -  we know that this you said was your first operation in Durban and in your career did you have occasion to come to Durban on other occasions?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: And how well did you know Mr Miyeza?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I know him, he even knows where I stay in Britz.

MR NEL: At the time of this operation as this was your first time in Durban, was that the first time that you met Mr Miyeza?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, at that time I did not know him.

MR NEL: You did not know him, that was the first time that you met him, here in Durban?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember whether that was the first time we knew each other.

MR NEL: Well, before this operation, had you been to Durban?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As I have already said, if I can read my statements they can refresh my memory.

MR NEL: Well Mr Mbane, I think it's clear that this was your first operation in Durban, or am I incorrect?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it might be so, I think that was the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the clear impression yesterday when you were testifying, Mr Mbane, that this was your first operation, because you went on to say your second one was in Josini and you had no hesitation at all in being adamant that this was your first one, now you're not sure, what is the position?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: In Durban it was my first operation, this one.

MR NEL: You hadn't met Mr Miyeza perhaps on holiday prior to this operation in Durban?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I can't remember coming to Durban on holidays.

MR NEL: So the point I'm trying to make is, when you came to Durban on this operation, seeing that was the first time that you knew or met Mr Miyeza, you didn't know him well at all?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember because they used to go to Vlakplaas sometimes.

MR NEL: Well Mr Mbane, are you now saying that you met Mr Mbane at Vlakplaas prior to this operation?  Sorry, Mr Miyeza.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I'm saying is it might happen that we met in Vlakplaas.  I'm not saying it is like that, I'm saying it might be so.

MR NEL: Well I don't want to flog a dead horse, but is it then incorrect that you met him in Durban for the first time as you've stated?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Let me put it that way that ...(intervention)

MR NEL: So we can forget about the possibility that you might have met him at Vlakplaas?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We can put it the way that will satisfy you.

MR NEL: Thank you for that, Mr Mbane.  What I want to put to you in conclusion is that Mr Miyeza was never at this operation, he was never at Winkelspruit and didn't take part in the removal of this body at all, and that you are making a mistake like the various other mistakes that seems to be made by you here.  What is your comment?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What do you want me to say that will satisfy you?

MR NEL: I would enjoy is it you say "yes", Mr Mbane, but that's up to you, whatever you want to say you can tell this Commission.
	Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van der Merwe, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, I'll break the chain, I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, do you have any questions that you'd like to put?

MR WILLS: Yes I do, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I'll probably be a bit longer than five minutes, do you want me to continue at this stage, I see it's just about 1 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient time to take the adjournment and we'll take the lunch adjournment now and then straight after that Mr Wills will commence with his questio-ning.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mbane, as I understand this operation and it's clear from the affidavit and the evidence of, I think it was Col Baker, that Mr Botha, Capt Botha was in charge of the operation involving Ntombi Kubheka.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that was your understanding?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: So that even though you were from a different unit to his - I see my colleagues are looking for examples, I'm referring to his application on page 107 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you talking about Col Baker's ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Col Baker's statement.  I think it's page 107 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: That's volume 1.

MR WILLS: Sorry, it's 108 of volume 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right at the bottom, the second-last line.

MR WILLS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON
"The team fell under the command of Capt H Botha and Gen Steyn."

MR WILLS: So if my understanding is correct ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, that doesn't say what my learned friend is putting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it doesn't necessarily say of this particular operation, but they were the general command.  But in any event I think it's clear from the evidence of Mr Mbane, when being cross-examined, that he considered Capt Botha as being in charge of the operation, under the overall command of Taylor.