Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I'm not disputing that sir.  As I have already said, the people that were staying there were from different areas.  I am sure that he is one of the people that came to help on that particular day.

MR MAPOMA: Do you dispute that Jabulani Nomalo was a resident in Moleleki section at that time?  And was taken from his home in Moleleki section?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I dispute that because he is from Seluma.  His home is in Seluma.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] going to tell us that he was taken from his home in Moleleki section and then to the veld?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: [no English interpretation]

MR MAPOMA: [inaudible] in the Moleleki section.  Now let's come to the death of - the day when Bulelwa was killed.  You confirmed that when you had a conversation with Bulelwa you - she was with Binky?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were talking with Bulelwa, was Bulelwa at that time, in good working relations with your SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct that Bulelwa at that stage had some differences with the manner in which you were conducting yourselves as the SDU's and when you were talking to her you were discussing those differences?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?  What are you putting to the witness?

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry Chairperson.  There are two questions now.  Is it correct that when you were talking to Bulelwa, there were some differences between her and the manner in which you, as the SDU's were operating in the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I dispute that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But to your knowledge, did Bulelwa, at any stage voice her disapproval of the manner in which the SDU operated?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is not correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The members of the ANC Youth League at some stage patrolled under the auspices of the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat that sir.  Please repeat your question sir.  Please repeat your question sir, the interpreter didn't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: We were told that at some point, the members of the ANC Youth League operated as SDU and patrolled the township?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that whilst she may have had complaints often concerning the manner in which the ANC Youth League members were operating as SDU were conducting themselves?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she at any stage voice those concerns?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I have already explained this sir, that as Bulelwa was in the street committee, Block F she came with the report that a new self defence unit was being formed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that - and how was this news received by the members of the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It was not well received sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the  members of the SDU say to Bulelwa about this?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They did not talk to Bulelwa.  She was talking to me at that time.  My colleagues heard this report from me.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] your - the other members of the SDU that it is Bulelwa who had brought the news of the formation of the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did your members of the SDU react to this news?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already explained sir, our colleagues of the ANC Youth League, we already knew about their.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] first brought the news of the formation of the SDU to you?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you convey this news to your - to the other members of the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.  I did.

CHAIRPERSON: How did your members of the SDU react to this news?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: According to my perception sir, this news was not well received.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you bring this to the attention of the other members of the SDU?  Was this at a meeting or to them individually?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We had a meeting sir.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Bulelwa present at that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: She was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any reason why she was not at that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, no particular reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any feelings or concerns expressed about Bulelwa at that meeting?  For having brought the news about the formation of the SDU - of the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, I think that they were totally against this because Bulelwa was seen talking to me.  They hated this.

CHAIRPERSON: Who hated who?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who hated who, that's the question?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The youth members of the new self defence unit.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just dealing with the meeting.  We know that at that meeting Bulelwa was not there, you announced at the meeting that she has told you about the formation of the new SDU and you've also explained that the members of the SDU did not like the idea of the formation of the new SDU.
	Now what I want to know is, were any feelings or concerns expressed at that meeting by members of the SDU against Bulelwa?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They had no problem with Bulelwa sir.

MR MALAN: May I just ask a follow up question.  Bulelwa was present at the Block F meeting where the decision was taken to form  a new SDU, is that correct?  She was a resident too, of Block F?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MALAN: Was nothing said about her participating in that meeting, agreeing a new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No sir, she did not agree with that.

MR MALAN: On what basis do you base this information, that she did not agree with it?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They told her that as a lady she should keep quiet.  Being called to order so to speak.

MR MALAN: Are you saying she did not speak?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: After she did not agree with the rest of the people in the meeting, she was told to keep quiet.

MR MALAN: Could you just lastly tell me, who told you this?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Bulelwa told me.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks Chairperson.  Now Mr Sonti, let's come to the political objective of your acts.  You have said that your objective was to bring peace to the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct.

MR MAPOMA: And there was no peace in the community because there was some members of the community that is the ANC Youth League who were - who did not see eye to eye with yourselves as SDU's, is that so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now you captured the youth and then upon capturing the youth you yourself went around the community to make a call to the community that anyone who has his dog - I'm trying to quote you correctly - you called members of the community to identify their dogs in the place where you were sending them.
	Now how do you reconcile that with an objective to bring peace?  That assertion of calling some children belonging to some members of the community, calling them dogs, yet your objective is to achieve peace.  How do you explain that one?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That particular night of the 6th, when we gathered or when there was conflict I asked for forgiveness.  I said that we should all talk.  This word, dog, were from our colleagues saying that here come these dogs, let us shoot, we asked for forgiveness, we lifted our hands, we tried to talk to them.
	They said that we are from rural areas, from the Cape and we wanted to rule the township.  This is why sir, the next day I was also shouting saying, if anybody had a dog patrolling the previous day must show up at Block F where Bulelwa's corpse was.  That is the truth, I did say that.
	I asked for forgiveness, forgiveness which I did not receive.

MR MAPOMA: [inaudible] past the stage of asking for forgiveness from them?