Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

CHAIRPERSON: We only want to hear about things that you actually heard  with your own ears or you saw with your own eyes.   Do you follow that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I follow that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You must just tell us that, don't tell us anything else.  You sent two people out to go and look for these other people?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes.  The whole group came back, I do not remember, but I heard with my ears because they said this was a lie, the house that we had been to was a wrong house.

CHAIRPERSON: So you now hear that it was a lie and they had gone to a wrong house, what happens then?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We went to the first house.

CHAIRPERSON: All of you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Chairperson, please bear with me, this incident happened a while ago, if I recall well, they did not drive with us in the kombi, because there was a shortcut between the two houses to go to the first house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   All right, Mr Ramawele, I was hoping that I could get to the shooting bit, perhaps you can do a bit better.

MR RAMAWELE: I see, Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.   The, when you say they reported that they went to the wrong house, what does that mean?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They met on the way, Solomon Monyoa and Magoba met with Norma Shosha on their way back and they told them that "we had been to the wrong house".  I will repeat it again Chairperson, I don't know whether we fetched them with the kombi or they walked back, I do not recall.

MR RAMAWELE: Okay, but nevertheless you all then came back to the first house, the original house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You were driving the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you park the kombi and get into the house or what is the position?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They got into the house again while the rest of us were in the car, Norma Shosha came to the car to tell us, let me put it this way, she said to us these people were actually playing games, if we arrest them, they will - and get out of this area, then we would be in a position to ask them questions because we had been warned before that there is one exit and one entrance into Chesterville at that time.

MR RAMAWELE: And so what happened?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I said to her "go back to the house, the rest of us will follow."

MR RAMAWELE: Did you follow?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: If I recall, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: You went into the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Myself, M.S. Radebe, S. Monyoa, Aubrey Mogadi and Chris  Magoba, we do not know the inside of the house.  I said to Norma Shosha there is an AK inside, just come up with a plan and come out and get your guns so that if anything happens, we can defend ourselves, so the three of them came out.  I don't know what reason did they leave behind for them to leave all at the same time, but they left the AK without the magazine and the ammunition.  I don't know the reason for that, maybe it was to show that they trusted them.

MR RAMAWELE: Just hang on, they left the police AK47 inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson, it did not have a magazine and rounds, if I recall.

MR RAMAWELE: And then they came back to the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: All the other unknown persons inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They were still inside the house.

MR RAMAWELE: So when the other police officers left the AK47 and went to the kombi, the other members just remained inside the house?  Is that so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: And then, what happened?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They quickly came to fetch their guns and they went back into the house.  If I remember well, Norma Shosha came to, we knew that we were supposed to arrest them, but we did not know their plan inside, she came out, she said "Simon,  there is nothing that we can do, except to arrest these people".  I said "well, let us also get out of the car", all of us then went out of the car and we surrounded the house and we stood at the windows so that each one, when one was trying to escape through the window, we would be in a position to arrest him or her.

MR RAMAWELE: Just hang on, the - what was the reason that the AK47 was left inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: To prove to them that they trusted them Chairperson.   It was empty, it did not have a magazine and it did not have ammunition.  Yes, this was negligence, but if it was the way to win their trust, so was it done.

MR RAMAWELE: Now, a decision now is taken that the people have to be arrested, is that what you are saying?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Why should they be arrested?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Because they pointed, they gave us a wrong house.  We wanted Charles whose surname I did not know and whose appearance I do not know.

MR SIBANYONI: Charles Ngcobo?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not want to lie, up to today I only know him as Charles.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.    So now you take a decision to arrest the inmates because they gave a wrong number of a house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They were asked about Charles, whether they know him and they provided us with a wrong address, now we thought that Charles was around, they were trying to hide him, now by arresting them, they would be in a position to reveal his whereabouts.

MR RAMAWELE: Tell the hearing, your purpose to go there was to infiltrate them, after infiltrating them, what was your next instruction to be?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The infiltration plan was to arrest them.  Had they gone with us into the kombi, if I do not remember the whites were left behind, we would be in a position to take them with and go and join our colleagues, now all of them were going to be arrested, an ambush kind of a thing.

MR RAMAWELE: You see, you are talking about an ambush and arrest, tell me, when going there you knew that you were going to arrest the inhabitants of that particular house, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were going to infiltrate them and if ever it goes according to our plans, if they were co-operative, we were going to pretend as if all of us were getting arrested.  We would not arrive there and say to our colleagues "arrest them", the plan was that we would be arrested, all of us.  But we knew that we would be released at some point.

MR RAMAWELE: So really your purpose to go there, really you really wanted to go and arrest, take these people, ambush these people, that is what you were supposed to do?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were not supposed to do that.

MR RAMAWELE: You were supposed just to infiltrate only?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were supposed to infiltrate them.  If they were willing to go with us, we were going to drive passed where our colleagues would be waiting for us, and we would give them a sign.  That is called ambush, it would have been an arrest because we told them that we were the comrades and all of us were going somewhere.

MR RAMAWELE: What did you want from them?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Sgt Nortje received information that Charles  was responsible for the killing of municipal police and the South African Police in Chesterville.   Maybe the policemen around this area were known to this people and they did not know us.

MR RAMAWELE: Mr de Kock spoke about the killing of two or three Security Police officers in Durban, are you talking about the police officers who were killed, are you referring to the same police officers, are they one and the same people?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not know whether me and Mr de Kock are talking about one incident.

MR RAMAWELE: The difference now is that you are talking about municipal police and a policeman.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, that is why I am saying I do not know whether me and Mr de Kock are on the same par, but that is how Willie told me.