Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: All right.  The evidence will be from the occupants of this kombi, that Motsamai opened the window on the right hand side, behind the driver's seat and pointed the firearm at you.  Is that correct?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: If they are going to come with that, I am not going to respond to that.

MR VISSER: That is your free choice.  You then turned around and ran away.  I am putting it to you.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The people in the kombi got out and ran after you, pursued you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And I want to put it to you that all of them will say, that not one of them fired any shots, except Motsamai.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I would say that is a lie.  Because those bullets or maybe the gunshots were more than 12.  If Motsamai, he was using a different gun which would be able to shoot so many bullets, then he had time again to reload his gun, what I know is that they came from various directions.  I had gunshots from different directions.

MR VISSER: I hear your argument.  I am putting to you what the facts are.
	The facts are that Mr Motsamai started firing at you from inside the kombi already, as you ran away.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I say to you, the person who started shooting is Mamome, whilst he was still inside the car.  As to whether Motsamai shot from the car, I am not able to verify that.
	But by that time I started running.

MR VISSER: Is it not correct that Mamome drove the kombi, down Calla Street and into King Street, I think it was called King Street Mr Chairman, I maybe wrong.  He turned right into - I am sorry Mr Chairman, just for a moment I forgot the name of the other street, it was Calla Street and King, thank you Mr Chairman.
	He turned around in King Street and he blocked your escape with the car, isn't that so?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Maybe there is something you don't understand here, I said to you I was running and I heard gunshots.  I had no time to look what he was doing, what.  My purpose was to save my life and that is all.

MR VISSER: Yes, he will say that when you saw the kombi, you turned around and you tried to run in a different direction.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Sir, I said to you I was not looking at the kombi, I wanted to save my life.  I was running, that is all.

MR VISSER: He will say that he got out of the kombi and he was able to trip you so that you fell and he was able to then arrest you.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: The way I ran and for a distance, I got tired.  Whether to say he tripped me, that is true.  To say when he went out of the kombi, I don't know and when he turned the kombi, I don't know.

MR VISSER: You were then placed in the kombi, together with your friend, Monase and you were then taken directly to be detained in terms of the MR docket for the murder of Mr Nkosi.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Can you repeat the last part of your question?  You said to me I was taken with my friend, I said I saw my friend at Fountain.  I didn't see him in the kombi.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, the way we argued about the words trip, I would have thought it was not common cause.

MR VISSER: What was not common cause.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : I say the way we wasted a lot of time about the word trip, whether he was tripped or not, I would have thought it was not common cause.

MR VISSER: It has been denied, it is now again being admitted.  What is the point Mr Chairman?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : Is it not common cause that he was tripped?  Am I under a wrong impression?

MR VISSER: We say he was, but we understood him not to wish to concede it this morning, but you explained to us that there was a problem of interpretation, we have now gone away from that.
	I am not there at all, I am putting the version of Mr Mamome, so that you can understand what he is going to say.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : Just regretting the fact that we wasted a lot of time about something which was common cause, which was not denied earlier by your client any way, it was just in passing.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, but this witness denied it this morning.   Or so I understood it.  You've now told us that it was an interpretation problem, we have accepted it.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I have to object.  I don't think at any stage, that the witness today has denied ... (intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : I think we know that he never denied that, Mr Stander.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you accepted that it would be an interpretational problem, and we left it.  That is you do not suggest he denied having done so?

MR VISSER: No, I thought so this morning, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But now, you can't say he denied it, if you said a minute ago.  Let's just get on Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Where am I?

CHAIRPERSON: We got to the stage where he denied that his friend was in the kombi when he got in, he said he saw him in Fountain.

MR VISSER: It will be denied, I don't know whether I put this, I have been interrupted so many times, it will be denied by ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just say you have been interrupted because you were being putting things that were incorrect, will you now kindly go on.

MR VISSER: It will be denied by Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Ramoseou and Morakile that they ever fired a shot on the day when you were arrested.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They are still given a chance to apply for amnesty if they are still continuing, they will be telling a lie.  I would like to make an appeal that the opportunity is still available for them to apply for amnesty but if they continue with that, they will be telling this Committee a lie.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Makhubalo for the advice.  Now, you were taken, I want to take you now to the incident, perhaps just the last point on this.  You said you were found not guilty and discharged of the allegation of murder of Mr Nkosi.  Is that what I understood you to say?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: It is technical, but I just have to put it to you, is it not true that the charge was withdrawn against you?  You were not tried and found not guilty, the charge was withdrawn?  Do you know what the difference is?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: If you are telling me about the legal procedure, but what I know is that I was acquitted, then I went home, that is what I know.

MR VISSER: Let's just talk for a minute about Mr Nkosi.  You told us that you were present in a hall when Mr Nkosi was asked, I think you said to give an explanation about the allegation that he was an informer.  Have I got that more or less right?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Did I say who was present?

MR VISSER: I didn't ask you that, please will you answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: What was put to you was that you were present, which is what you told us.  You must listen to what Counsel put to you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : Sorry, in all fairness to the witness Mr Visser, he is not Nkosi, he is Kosi, so that is why this witness is saying who are you referring to.

MR VISSER: I am referring to a gentleman by the name of Nkosi, Nkosi, who was the informant of Mr Motsamai.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I have a problem here, because you talk of a person I don't know.  I don't know Nkosi.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, Gosi.  Not Nkosi, that is a different surname.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Do you know a person by the name of Gosi who was killed?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was it suspected that he was an informer?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: For Mr Motsamai?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am not account to that.

MR VISSER: But please Mr Makhubalo, did you not tell us yesterday that the whole problem arose because Mr Motsamai went there with the Security Branch motor car to Gosi's house?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I never said that.

MR VISSER: You never said that, all right.  Perhaps I am mistaken again.  Was it ever stated whose informer he was, or was it simply stated Gosi you are an informant of the Security Police.  Is that what was stated?