Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

MR VALLY: We appreciate that General.
"Suffice to say, that after the briefing given to the Minister of Defence and myself by Mr Louw, Doctor Scholtz and Mr Mike Kennedy during February '94, it was abundantly clear to both the Minister and myself that there were definite indications that Doctor Basson had acted outside the mandate of the project and had probably abused capabilities that had been researched and developed in the project.
 This impression was further strengthened by the detailed document of the United States and the UK Governments, dated the 11th of April as contained in the Cloud Report and of which I was given a copy on the 12th of April '94 to prepare comments for the State President.  My full comment is also contained in the Cloud Report dated the 15th of April.
And that is my Appendix K which is now the Cloud Report, but this is a document which I believe to be one of the documents in the bundle of the TRC and again if you study that document, if this document is studied by the TRC, it will reveal exactly what my knowledge and impressions were at the time.
"Furthermore, at that point my views were shared with the Chief of the National Defence Force, the Minister of Defence and the State President, as well as with Doctor Scholtz and Mr Mike Kennedy.  After a discussion of my comment as well as inputs given by the Minister and the National Intelligence Agency, it was my impression that the main priority at stake was to deal with demarche with the USA and the UK primarily from the point of view of what would be in the best interest of the Republic of South Africa and to deal with the issue of abuses and possible criminal activities internally,  through the already established Commissions of Inquiry and Investigations.  This is also clearly visible in the follow-up process as contained in the Project Cloud Report"
And I see:  see Appendix K, pages 45 to 103.  
"My own personal role and further activities from then on are clearly and accurately reflected in the Cloud Report and I am prepared to discuss any aspect thereof if so required"
That is from page 103 to page 211.
"Finally I would like to confirm again, that at no time prior to the events that led up to the day marsh with the USA and the UK in '93, did I have any knowledge of so-called third force activities carried out by members of the South African Medical Service under my command or by any person or persons associated with or involved in Project Coast or any of its front companies or private companies utilised in its programme"

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: ...very clearly and deliberately. Also with reference to what Dr Jan Lourens said to me three months previously. In support of this affidavit I have requested Mr Mike Kennedy of the National Intelligence Agency to submit a separate independent affidavit which will corroborate what I have declared above. I would also recommend strongly that the TRC consider the need to call Mr Mike Kennedy or any of the other persons I have mentioned in my affidavit to give evidence with relation to my position and role in the above events.
 Mr Chairman if I may just finally say the following. We have a saying that paper is patient. There is a very large document here referring to numerous other documents and that one can read at your leisure and form an opinion. But what is not written in these documents is that both Mr Kennedy and I briefed Mr Mandela and Mr Mbeki on Mr Mandela certainly on one occasion and Mr Mbeki on at least two occasions about our personal impressions. Those briefings are not reflected on paper. And what I said just now about the Minister, about the Chief of Defence Force, the Minister and the previous State President applies equally to the present government. They knew exactly what I knew or what I did not know. And therefore I would like to request the Commission to take that into consideration. Thank you very much indeed Mr Chairman for the opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you General for that extensive exposition. Can I just before we do anything else for the purposes of our record and in the scientific vein of these hearings the panel has grown by twenty five percent in the form of our colleague Dumisa Ntsebeza, who like the rest of us is a hundred percent Commissioner but now forms twenty percent of this panel. Also for the record Ms Reynolds I see Mr Currin has joined us in the meantime. I am not sure if he is assisting you or vice versa but we leave that for Mr Currin to mediate on in the meantime whilst we take our tea adjournment and reconvene at eleven. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to start Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Yes Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not on the record Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Chairperson if I may just put something on record regarding the status of the annexures referred to by General Knobel. We would prefer these documents to be treated or regarded as Category B documents, i.e. documents which the Commission agrees are sensitive for one or another reason which shall not be released to the press. But are required for the hearing. Because my attention has been drawn particularly to a document which forms part of the bundle in Annexure J which is clearly the stuff or proliferation. So for that reason we would prefer these documents to be treated as Category B.
 I did indicate just before General Knobel started to testify that there was no objection to the statement as it stood and also to him referring to these annexures. And the General referred to that particular annexure in Annexure J.

CHAIRPERSON: What is J? Is that the Viljoen, French and Kota?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ja it is not the lawyers letter, the demand it (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no but it is in that sort of bundle.

NORMAN ARENDSE: It is in that bundle yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What specifically in that is it J2 that is being objected to or is it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes it is the letter by Dr Koekemoer to General Knobel of the 24th of November 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Appendix B especially?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to proliferate but is it 003890?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes and also.

CHAIRPERSON: Right up to 3891 and rands and cents?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes and also the whole of Annexure K which is the Cloud Report.

CHAIRPERSON: Now K does it, defensive equipment is that it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Annexure K?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Annexure K is the Cloud Report which is not part of this bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: My K here.

FEMALE SPEAKER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: No I just want to be clear. Is K not this?

FEMALE SPEAKER: No ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Well we will have to straighten the record and the annotation. Anything else Mr?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Nothing at this stage Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson I want to put on record that there are a large bundle of documents which were given to us by General Knobel. We will still have to go through these documents.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no Mr Vally can you address on the application by the Ministry?

MR VALLY: In principle I have no objections but I cannot support or argue against it because I haven't studied these documents in detail. As you have heard Mr Chairperson they are being photocopied at the moment. What I am saying is that we can have a discussion with my colleague, Advocate Arendse on which documents are problematic and which are not and I am sure we can reach an accommodation with him and then we can put on record specifically which ones should require or in terms of Section 33 so that they are not released to the public. But I also want to put on record that once we have an opportunity to study these documents we will want to question General Knobel about these documents and we may need another day or half a day to question General Knobel on the new documents he supplied us with.