Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, you have heard the evidence of Mr Ngo that he frequently went with Bokaba to get instructions from you and that he then reported to you, what do you say about that?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: If that had been the case, he would have been with us at each and every conference, either in the morning or in the afternoon.  He was never in my offices except for that half an hour.

MR DU PLESSIS: You also heard evidence Colonel, from certain bombings - alleged bombings that he was involved in with Bokaba and Selahla.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I have no knowledge of that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you see that as possible in any way?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, it is highly unlikely - highly impossible.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, you were not here when the evidence was led but you have knowledge of the fact that Mr Ngo also alleges that you were contacted by the Bloemfontein security branch to send Mr Ngo to Bloemfontein with regard to the murder of Mr Venter and that you then asked Bokaba to bring him to Bloemfontein and that Bokaba on your instructions, then brought him to Bloemfontein.  What do you say about that?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, I never contacted Bloemfontein telephonically or any other way and I never Bokaba or ordered him to bring Ngo to Bloemfontein for any reason whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what was put to you was not that you contacted Bloemfontein but that Bloemfontein contacted you, can you clear that up?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I heard Mr Chair, there was no member of the personnel of any rank who ever contacted me with any request whatsoever with regards to Ngo.

MR DU PLESSIS: You also heard the evidence that a certain Lieutenant Shaw allegedly contacted you.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, Shaw definitely not contacted me Mr Chair.

MR DU PLESSIS: With regard to this incident?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know Shaw?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, I know him very well.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, I would like you to comment on - from your perspective that is, on the possibility that somebody on the evidence of Mr Ngo who has not formally been transferred to the security branch, who had been a constable could be sent by you to Bloemfontein so that he could eliminate somebody.

ADV DE JAGER: The evidence was never that he had been sent to Bloemfontein as Mr Loots had been aware, to commit an elimination.

MR DU PLESSIS: I realise that Mr Chair.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chair, the questions is actually concerning the probabilities that the Bloemfontein branch - let me put it this way, that the Bloemfontein branch would have put a request in view of the way in which the security branch operated in the country, that the Bloemfontein branch, with regards to a person in the position of Ngo would be sent to Bloemfontein in order to commit an elimination on a person whom he knew.  What do you think the probabilities are?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I think it is completely unheard of, that is my personal view.  I do not think that could ever have happened.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Why do you say that, they have worked with him before.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Ngo was not a member of the security branch Mr Chair, and I never had contact with him.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, they had worked with him before according to him, in Bloemfontein.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I hear what you say Mr Chair.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: May you should say: "I cannot comment on that", the Bloemfontein people should answer that question.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I agree with you, thank you very much Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, are there any or is there any course in the security branch that you will have to complete before you could join the security branch?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Specifically with regards to the security branch in the Northern Transvaal we had an internal course, an orientation course that was aimed at making the members aware of the various units where the units were involved and specifically in my case, how to work with informants with regards to giving them orders and to get information from them.  There was also a basic security course that was offered by the main office or main branch but it was a bit more involved.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, could you give the Committee some information about the security.  What kind of security background did one have to join the security branch?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: There was a top secret affidavit or statement on that memo.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.  Mr Chairman, maybe just the last questions.
	Do you verify the correctness of your affidavit

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record, I've just got one question perhaps more from the sake of interest that anything else.
	This interview with Mr Ngo, was it a successful interview, did you decide to appoint him?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I must tell the Committee, he did not make a bad impression on me.

MR VISSER: So, he did have a chance of getting the job?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: The background search was done.

MR VISSER: The point is, we knew that he had a previous conviction for assault, did you know that?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Not at that stage.  Let me answer the question in this way Mr Chair.  In those years and specifically in those years, '86 or '87 and other years as well but especially those years, the unit commanders and unit heads were very concerned with their people, they were very involved with their people.  It was difficult to get people transferred between units between districts and between various units.  It would have been premature for me to do any background checks before I had something before me.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Loots you are a disciplined people, would you please talk a bit slower that the people can translate you and interpret you?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Can I just make sure, from where should I commence?

MR VISSER: Mr Loots, thank you very much, I heard what you answered.  There are no more questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Sorry, before you called for him to come for an interview, you had not sought from anywhere else some information about him?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Was it only on the basis of the 30 minute interview that you said to him: "all right, go and lodge your application with your unit commander"?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: I've got no questions - Stander speaking Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV DE JAGER: Colonel you needed somebody at that stage, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, I did.

ADV DE JAGER: And here you had an apparent good candidate who made a good impression on you, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, that's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You told him to go back to him commanding officer and apply?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You never heard anything of him again?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, I never heard anything from him again, I never saw an application.

ADV DE JAGER: He was brought there by Bokaba?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you tell Bokaba or ask Bokaba what happened to this good person we saw yesterday?