Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: And the Mandela incidents?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The Mandela incident and the Bobby and Nicos, I have combined them.  I don't have a good recollection of time, we did a lot of things before we got commands.  We had to do clearances and do a lot of duties in the office.  I think it's somewhere there in the '80's - 1980's.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you join the police?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In 1979.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you join the security force?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I started with the security force - I think it's between 1984 and '85.

ADV DE JAGER: So, really you could give us a better date than somewhere during the 1980's?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say in 1985.  In 1985 I joined the security force but I don't have a recollection of the date.  I worked at Bato location, I was taken to the reaction unit and from the reaction unit I joined the security branch.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you give us a date?  When did you join the security branch?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't remember the date quite well.

ADV DE JAGER: Haven't you got any papers about your own career?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I have them in my file.  They hid that file, they just gave me a small file there.  That's the place where my file is.  In my file I have all the documents and proof of courses I attended and I can just remember that I attended such courses in the '80's.  There's evidence to the effect of time when I started at the security force.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, proceed please.

ADV MEMANI: It seems to be a convenient time Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we finished this incident now?

ADV MEMANI: I guess so.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take the adjournment and we hope we proceed a little more quickly tomorrow.

MR BRINK: May I suggest that during the adjourn Mr Chairman, with respect my learned friend, not me to tell him how to run his case but he ...[inaudible] his client fully in respect of the remaining incidents so that he knows what questions to put to him so that we can indeed finish.

ADV MEMANI: I think ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 09.09.97

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR STANDER: Just hand you the list of the victims I represent as at today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, you're mike is not on.   Now yesterday you had just finished telling us about the burning of the vehicle of Jani Mohapi and we were about to begin with the petrol bombing of house of Citi Mzuzwana at page 147, paragraph 6.  May you please proceed with this application.
	Now, did you burn the house of Citi Mzuzwana?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so Sir.  Here the instruction came from Lieutenant Shaw and from Colonel Coetzee.   That is when Citi Mzuzwana was detained at our offices under certain sections of the security legislation.  Whilst he was interrogated about ...[inaudible] Youth Congress issues because he was the organiser of the ...[inaudible] Youth Congress and then again he was the one who was organising these signatures for 1.000.000 for the "Release Mandela Campaign".
	He didn't give full details according to Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw.  He was tried to be recruited but they failed.  The second issue - when these people were interrogated they would take out the files, which I've explained yesterday.  Whilst he was interrogated, the file was on the table but he didn't know that the file was there because it was hidden.  It was put aside so that he should not see.  That is how we were working.
	The following day in the morning Colonel Shaw - Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, they informed me and Mamome that at his place there is his car - that is Mosheshwe Street or Mosheshwe Road.  I didn't know what kind of a car was that.  They explained that this car and together with his house - because the parents knew their children's political activities, they should be petrol-bombed so that their parents should understand, so that they should reprimand their children not to take part in political activity.  
	They informed us that we should go there.  We went there in the evening.  It was myself because Mamome, when we were sent both of us, he would act his own decisions then he brought Lesale and Miningwa.  I have already made petrol bombs - there were four in number.  We went there - we were driving a Kombi.  We parked on a certain street.  It was at night.  We went on foot through a tarred road and examining as whether we are not watched.  
	We didn't put the balaclavas, we only put on the hand gloves.  We went there, we found that it is silent, it is quite.  When we arrived at the tarred tar - when we arrived at Mzuzwana's place we started setting the petrol bombs alight.  Whilst we were running and just about to throw the petrol bombs, Miningwa started, then he started saying he's coughing, he has flu.  We stuck and then Sergeant Mamome started to be upset.  He took the petrol bomb from Miningwa then he extinguished, then the rag which caught fire.  
	Then we started running again and Lesale, he strained his leg.  After he strained his leg because I was behind him, Mamome was in front, I took the petrol bomb from Lesale ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you eventually set the car in the house or petrol bomb the car in the house or didn't you in the end?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we petrol-bombed the house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And after petrol-bombing it, what happened?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: After we petrol-bombed, we went back to the car and he took us home.  In other words, two people who didn't throw the petrol bombs and they were supposed to do that, was Lesale and Miningwa.

ADV MEMANI: From there you went to your respective homes as it was the practice?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that's true.

ADV MEMANI: And then the following day, did you go and report?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we reported in the morning.  We explained to the Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee that we have accomplished the operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Was the car also bombed?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true, it was bombed by Sergeant Mamome.

ADV MEMANI: Is there anything you want to say about this particular incident?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I would leave it there because I have already explained that two people never participated in the throwing of the petrol bombs and they were supposed to do so.

ADV MEMANI: Now, the next incident is at paragraph 7 - the shooting of Zwelinzima Mzuzwana.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This incident, if I may explain it clearly.  I was at home - we knocked off earlier.  Sergeant Mamome came to me - it was around past 5 in the afternoon.  He informed me that: "Boyzi, I received a telephone message from Lieutenant Shaw which informed me that at the AME church at 4 and 6, there is a meeting which is held by Michael and that the person called Mzuzwana who is the brother to Citi Mzuzwana are present and on top of that the information received from the informers is that Mazgwe, an executive of COSAS - they have knives with them which they want to use them if one of the security police would stop them on the road".
	We left then from home with a security police car.  We went to ...[inaudible] Street and we proceeded to 4 and 6.  We looked at the AME church, we found that it is true there is a MYKO meeting there.  And then again Sergeant Mamome, he explained earlier that Lieutenant Shaw has given him the instruction that we should do by all means possible to harass Mazgwe.

ADV MEMANI: Who is Mazgwe?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is the younger brother to Citi Mzuzwana.

ADV MEMANI: Is that Zwelinjani Mzuzwana?