Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: This year, yes.  Bokaba says he has never been to Bloemfontein until the 15th of May this year with this amnesty application - with your amnesty application.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was brought here by Bokaba.  Do you mean he has never come to Bloemfontein or what's you question?  I don't  understand the direction of your question.

MR DU PLESSIS: The point I'm trying to make is that Bokaba will testify that he never took you to Bloemfontein and that the first time he had gone to Bloemfontein in his life ever, was on the 15th of May 1997.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was brought here by him, he knows Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  And who did you report to?  Colonel Coetzee, is that right?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  And what happened to Bokaba after that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He dropped me here and returned back.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now Mr Ngo, is it correct that when you went to report to Colonel Coetzee, you didn't know at all why you were going to Bloemfontein, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR DU PLESSIS: And the first time you heard was when Coetzee told you, when he discussed the operation with you, that was the first time you heard why you had to go to Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do I understand your application also correctly that you were specifically singled out to go to Bloemfontein to execute this operation?  Do I understand that correctly?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: From Pretoria to Bloemfontein I didn't know why I was brought here, I was about this operation when I arrived in Bloemfontein.  Nobody told me why I was brought to Bloemfontein but they just said to me I must come here and report in Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: What I mean is, you were specifically singled out ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What he is explaining is, he doesn't know if he was, he just knows he was told to come here.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo, the way your amnesty application is set out, is that you were given instructions to go and eliminate Mr Venter by Colonel Coetzee.  Now, what I'm trying to - or let me rephrase the question then, who else had to eliminate Mr Venter or were you the only person who was given instructions to eliminate Mr Venter?

CHAIRPERSON: How does he know, how does he know that Colonel Coetzee didn't ask half a dozen other people to do it and they all refused?  He cannot answer questions of that nature Mr du Plessis, he can only - you can only ask him what happened when he was there or what he has knowledge of.

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, I'm asking him about what he has knowledge of Mr Chairman, that is the point of the question.  The point of the question is Mr Ngo, were you the only person that you - let me put it that way, were you the only person that you know of who was given instructions to eliminate Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When I arrived here, I went straight to Colonel Coetzee and when I was with him, two officers arrived who is Shaw and Erasmus, they knew that I was supposed to carry out that operation.  Those are the people I know that they knew - that they knew the arrangements of my participation in that operation to eliminate Mr Venter because I discussed with him about the operation together with Colonel Coetzee.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Mr Ngo, and when Colonel Coetzee told you about Mr Venter you saw that it was the Mr Venter that you knew?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he showed me a photo that this is the one, the person we're talking about, then the photo was written with a marking pen P D Venter, then I realised that this is the person that when I was attacked, Erasmus took me to him for accommodation.

MR DU PLESSIS: Were you ever told Mr Ngo, why you were asked to go to Bloemfontein specifically to be asked to eliminate Mr Venter, were you ever told the reason why you were decided upon?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I was told about the reason.

MR DU PLESSIS: What were you told?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The first reason - if I would generalise, one of them was that Mr Venter doesn't co-operate with them anymore, he has severed the relationship with them and secondly he was involved with the railway struggles.

MR DU PLESSIS: But why you Mr Ngo, why you?  Why were - did they ever tell you why they decided to use you for this operation?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I wouldn't know because I was just called and given the instructions and I was given the reasons.  I would never question the instructions which are given by my seniors.  If I would ask them why the decided to use me, they would think that I was against them.
	If you are given instructions, you just obey those instructions and you should do the way you were taught.  Why he decided that I should do that operation, I don't know - they knew the reasons why because they knew who is the right person to do the operation.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mr du Plessis, what does your client - what is your client's interest in - have in the amnesty regarding to Mr Venter - ...[inaudible] of Mr Venter?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm not going further in the events of the - I'm not going to cross-examine further in the events of Mr Venter.   It just turns around the question of Colonel Loots sending Mr Ngo to Bloemfontein and the probabilities surrounding that issue and all I'm asking is, I'm asking about the probabilities to establish the probability of Mr Ngo being the person who was identified to carry out this operation.  And I've got one or two questions further questions further questions on this issue and then I'm finished with that Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Well perhaps yes, you should because you've already spent quite a few days on the Venter issue.

MR DU PLESSIS: I know Mr Chairman, but this specific part where my client's are involved was not dealt with fully.  I know and I've read the record about those questions.  I won't go into the detail of the operation itself, I just want to establish the probabilities of Mr Ngo having being sent there.  If you'll just give me that opportunity please.
	Now Mr Ngo, did Colonel Loots - Colonel Coetzee, did they know that you knew Mr Venter, did you tell them?

CHAIRPERSON: Erasmus was the man who took him to Venter, Erasmus was in the office.  Wasn't he?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, but  ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  All right Mr Chairman.  Now ...[inaudible]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mr du Plessis, you were present when we made a ruling in Pretoria that people implicated do not have an automatic right to cross-examine witnesses but we have never denied people implicated, the right to cross-examine but that must be - must remain within reasonable limits.  You are no longer within reasonable limits with your questions.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right, I accept that Mr Chairman, does that mean that I have to stop my cross-examination Mr Chairman?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Unless you can show why you should go into this issue of Venter - you've spent quite a number of days.  In fact he has never said that Loots told him that he was to go to Bloemfontein to commit any crime, he has not implicated Captain Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, but I had to establish obviously exactly what was told.  Now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You have.

MR DU PLESSIS: I have established that Mr Chairman, I know.   That's the reason why I asked those questions.  Now the question is Mr Chairman, and I will then deal with the object of the cross-examination and ask the Committee if I should be allowed to ask these questions.   The question arising from the ...[intervention]