Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Let me explain now.  I don't deny that they were taken from Ladybrand by that Special Investigation Unit.  I said we found them there in the morning and the instructions we received are the ones which I explained, that is why after that what we did about torture and all that, they were taken up again by the Special Investigative Unit, which was led by Captain Du Plooy.

MR VISSER: And I am told that Captain Du Plooy requested assistance from some of the members of the Security Branch, being the field workers, to assist in completing the administration, the filling out of forms identification of persons etc.  Do you know anything about that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is why I said we received instructions from Lieutenant Shaw.  You are telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand what Counsel put to you?  That Captain Du Plooy asked for assistance for people to do administrative work, to fill in forms, to ask the people what their names were and things of that nature.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true, but they are hiding some issues.  They are hiding from you the torture.  It is true when he said he requested assistance from our Branch, we must not say only good things when we helped them to fill the forms and they would run away from the torture aspect of it.

MR VISSER: Now, that at last we've found some common ground, Mr Motsamai, perhaps we should make the most of this.  Were you one of the persons who was detailed to go and assist in completing forms in regard to any of these comrades that came from Ladybrand?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And how would you go about that, would you sit at a table as you are doing now with the forms in front of you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: These people were assaulted even whilst we were filling the forms, they were assaulted.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, that is not what I asked you.  I asked you whether you were sitting at a table and filling out forms, that is the question.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Whilst we were filling the forms, we continued with the assault.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You would write a little bit and you would get up and you would go and assault them and you would come back and you would write a little bit, is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were taken to the Special Unit to be assaulted.  Those forms we would fill them.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, let's try to finish your cross-examination.  I am asking you were you writing a little bit and then assault them and come back to the table and write a little bit further and assault them again or what happened?  How could you fill out a form while you were assaulting them?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know, maybe I am repeating myself, I am saying whilst we were filling forms, that person would be in front of you whilst you are filling in the form.   Then from there, he would leave or the members of the Special Unit would take him and how he was tortured by that Unit, I don't know.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, that is precisely what I wanted to put to you, so thank you for your answer.  Because it seems to me that what the situation was and you can stop me if I am wrong, is some of you chaps were asked to assist, you had the forms, you sat at the table, you asked their identity, their address, filled out the form, they were taken away and as you say, they might have been assaulted later, but you don't know by whom.
	Am I correct in understanding what you have just told me?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is what I have just explained.  But even before those forms were filled, what I said before has happened, we were given instructions that we should torture these people.

MR VISSER: Yes, now just on that point, you see Judge Ngoepe asked you about that and you told the Committee that after the first day you never assaulted anyone.  Did I understand you correctly?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you assault anyone on the first day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.  All of them.

MR VISSER: Will you give me the name of every person that you assaulted?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Oupa Makhubalo.

MR VISSER: Just while you are there, please just tell us, I am sorry, how precisely did - I am sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you would ask him to spell the names.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Makhubalo, it is - well I see there is another spelling Makhubalo, without the "h", I thought it was spelt with an "h", but this is from the affidavit, so that would probably be the correct spelling.
	Oupa Makhubalo, how precisely did you assault if at all, Oupa Makhubalo?  What did you do to him, now tell us.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was sitting as I am sitting, I was not alone, we were two.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, he was sitting on a chair?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We tied his hands behind the chair or behind his back with handcuffs.

MR VISSER: Who was with you, was that Sergeant Mamome?  Who was with you and Oupa?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is Sergeant Mamome.

MR VISSER: Right, he was handcuffed, yes?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome had a tyre tube which was made that it should be able to cover the face and the whole head.

MR VISSER: Did he suffocate Oupa Makhubalo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes, please continue.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: So that we were retrieving information according to instructions from Lieutenant Shaw.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, do you remember the question that I asked you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is in regard to torturing.

MR VISSER: No, no, I asked you what you did to Oupa Makhubalo.  Please tell us that.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I held his hands, his legs.  By that time Sergeant Mamome put a tyre tube on the face and he pressed the handcuffs with his leg and pulling him down.
	And while he was struggling, I pressed his legs.  I pressed his legs so that he should not remove from the chair.

MR VISSER: So, you assisted in the suffocation of Oupa Makhubalo by holding his legs down?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is that all that you did to him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You wanted me to repeat that, I think that is ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: No, no, I don't ask you, I am not asking you to repeat it.  I am asking you whether that is all that you did to Oupa Makhubalo.  It is a perfectly simple, understandable question.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who else did you assault on that first day?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on to that, as I understand it, this was done in a separate room, this was not part of the passage treatment?  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We were in Sergeant Mamome's office.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Is there anybody else that you personally assaulted on that first day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is the only one, because we wanted to recruit him.

MR VISSER: Is it fair to summarise your evidence in regard to the group of comrades who were arrested by the South African Defence Force and brought to Bloemfontein, that you, Motsamai, only assaulted Oupa Makhubalo and no one else at any time?  Is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Not in the passage.  In the passage I took part to all.  You said specifically whom did I assault.  In the passage I assaulted.  Whom we took alone to that room is Oupa Makhubalo only.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us please, if you can remember, please tell us, who did you assault in the passage and what exactly, how exactly did you assault that person?