Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I am not lying, I'm saying he is the one who is telling the lie.  Where - you are representing him, that is why you are saying I am lying.  I am saying he is the one who is telling a lie.

MS TANZER: I further put it to you that Mr Nosenga was at the Kwamadala hostel prior to the attack, that he did take part in the attack and that you and your co-applicants are for some reason covering up his existence at the hostel.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: The way you talk it looks like you were staying there at Kwamadala hostel, then it means in that case I was not staying there.  You were the one who was staying there, because I'm telling you that Nosenga was not there and you insist that Nosenga was there.  It looks like you are the one who was staying at Kwamadala hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Dlamini, what is intended to be put to you is that according to Matanzima Nosenga, he was staying at the hostel prior to the attack and that he was part of the attack, you've denied that.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I dispute that, he was not there and he was not present during the attack.

MS TANZER: Did you see any police presence in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: He has answered that question, he said "no".

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: You gave instructions that stolen items be burnt.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that was the instruction that I was given by Damarra.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you steal any good from Boipatong on the night of the attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Mr Dlamini, I take it that the meeting or the conference that was in Ulundi, where Mr Nosenga was brought to, was the annual conference of the IFP, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that annual conference is the one that is held in July's annually, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the very conference which was held after the Boipatong attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You say you were not there at the conference, you don't know what happened there, do you?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I was not there, I did not go to the conference.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know what was said in the conference?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I do not know because I was not present.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when Nosenga was speaking to you about his intention to plant bombs, did he tell you that he was present during the attack at Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, he never mentioned that.

MR MAPOMA: Did you find out from him?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, we knew that he was not there.

MR MAPOMA: How did you know that he was not there?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He came after the attack.

MR MAPOMA: How do you know that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I've already mentioned that I was there at Kwamadala hostel.  Though I cannot be very sure about the month, I was still there, I was not yet arrested.  The other co-applicants were already arrested at the time.

MR MAPOMA: No, Sir, what I want to be clear on is, you did not see Nosenga when he was arriving at the hostel, you were only told that there is a boy, or there is a  young man by the  name of Nosenga who says this and that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I was told.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is, do you know precisely when Nosenga arrived at the hostel.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He came on that particular day when these two gentlemen called us.

MR MAPOMA: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Dlamini, when Mr Nosenga told you and the many people who were you, that he had been sent by the ANC to plant bombs in Kwamadala hostel, I understand from your evidence that he was giving you this information freely and voluntarily, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I cannot say whether he was free to tell us because I was not the first person to see, he started speaking to these other guys.  I just saw him for a very shot time.

MR BERGER: Well you were there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute.
	Did you just say that he appeared as if he was not mentally sane?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He looked shocked, he seemed very shocked.

CHAIRPERSON: Please speak close so that the interpreter can interpret everything, because some of the things the interpreter is not interpreting.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Nobody was threatening Mr Nosenga, nobody was doing anything to Mr Nosenga to make him talk, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: When I was there nothing happened.  I don't know before that but when I was there with him nothing like that happened.

MR BERGER: And then after he had made this startling confession he was taken to the senior committee of the IFP in the hostel, is that right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And he was left there in the hands of the senior committee?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Besides Mr Thembankosi Khumalo, who else was present when Mr Nosenga was left there?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Thembankosi was in his house, there were other people in his house.  He took him to the committee and I was not there at the time, but as we were taking him there, Thembankosi was in his house with his inmates.

MR BERGER: So when you said in your evidence earlier
"We took Nosenga to the IFP Committee."
That's not correct, is it?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It is true.

MR BERGER: No, you took Mr Nosenga to Mr Khumalo, Mr Khumalo took Mr Nosenga to his committee.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, Khumalo himself was the member of the committee.

MR BERGER: Now, how long after that was Mr Nosenga taken to Ulundi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Though I cannot remember very well, that took place some time ago.  I think it was about a week or two and he was taken there.

MR BERGER: So what happened for that one or two-week period, between the time after Mr Nosenga was taken to Mr Khumalo and the time that he was taken to Ulundi, what happened to Mr Nosenga?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Nothing happened.

MR BERGER: Did you see him during that one or two-week period?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I saw him inside the hostel.

MR BERGER: Walking around freely?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I used to see him sitting in front of one room that was occupied by the group from the township.  Most of the times he would be there.

MR BERGER: He was associating with other people in the hostel quite freely during that period?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I can say so because he was staying with us inside the hostel.

MR BERGER: Is that the treatment that was usually meted out to ANC spies, they were accommodated in the hostel and allowed to move around freely?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: If the person would be there among us and be free, we would give him accommodation but if he would try to hide himself, we wouldn't help him by giving accommodation.

MR BERGER: At that stage you and none of the other hostel residents, besides the senior committee, knew what was going to happen to Mr Nosenga, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, we knew nothing.

MR BERGER: How do you know he was taken to Ulundi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: A meeting was convened just before the trip to Ulundi and it was mentioned that he would be leaving with the people going to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Who mentioned that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It was Mr Khumalo, Thembankosi Khumalo.  He told us that this man would be taken with to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Was this a meeting held in the stadium, a meeting of all the residents of the hostel?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.