Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: So I want to urge you, can I proceed then Chair?
I want to urge you to be honest because it appears then that there must have been some fraud somewhere along the line.  Are you serious that Ms Tanzer assisted you to apply for amnesty for Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, she's the one who assisted me because the other ones never came, she's the one who assisted me in filling in the TRC forms pertaining to the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: And Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that one too.

MR LOWIES: But Tanzer, Sir, was only briefed after the hearing had already begun, if I read the record correct.  That means your application was finalised after the hearing began?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have no knowledge to that effect.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Chair excuse me, just to clarify something?  	Mr Nosenga, do you know what the TRC amnesty form looks like?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it was filled in by my legal counsel.

ADV SIGODI: If you look at page number 6 where you have signed, page number 6 of the bundle R, you've confirmed that was your signature there?

MR LOWIES: With respect I think he did not, that was the one he denied?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I'm the one who signed here.

ADV SIGODI: Yes he confirmed.

MR LOWIES: I apologise my mistake.

ADV SIGODI: Now if you look at this form can you perhaps recall who filled in this form for you or who filled in this form?  Form from page 1 to page 6?  Can you recognise that handwriting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not see it quite well.

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember when you signed this form at page 96, when was that, do you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

ADV SIGODI: Can you perhaps tell us if this was the form which you signed when you were assisted by Ms Tanzer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, this is.

ADV SIGODI: Did you say this is the form which Ms Tanzer assisted you to sign?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, this is my handwriting.

MR LAX: You're not being asked if this is your handwriting.  You must understand something, just listen to the questions carefully.  You're being asked whether this is the form that Ms Tanzer assisted you to sign?  Are you able to tell us whether this is the form that she assisted you to sign or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May she please read it to me because I am not well educated?

ADV SIGODI: In other words you cannot read what is on this form, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I'll be telling a lie, I cannot read.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms?

MS CAMBANIS: I'll hold over till lunch time to discuss with my colleagues, there's some disagreement.  It's almost lunch time, well deal with it then.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MS CAMBANIS: I'll withdraw.  I'll withdraw, no comment.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, did Ms Tanzer when she came there explain to you the purpose of her visiting you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She told me that she is my legal counsel.

MR LOWIES: And did she tell you that she's here to finalise your application and you must sign forms, is that what you're saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, to fill in the application form for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, various people came to see you in prison we understand from your evidence.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any one of these persons require you to sign a document, if you cannot remember say so.  If you do, say so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall because many of them came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You may have signed such documents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is possible, I cannot recall really.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Nosenga, did Mr Berger ask you to sign any application form?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Definitely not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Did Brian ask you to sign any form?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they just wrote things down and they took those things along.

MR LOWIES: So he definitely did not ask you to sign?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I do not recall them making me sign anything.

MR LOWIES: The only person that you can recall who wanted you to sign documents was Ms Tanzer?  Or am I wrong in this?  This is a question it's not something I put to you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So even though you can't write, we have the following from you then and that is the only person who requested you to put your signature on TRC documents is Ms Tanzer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: This you are sure about?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes she came to me in Sun City.

MR LOWIES: And the reason that she gave you is "listen, you must sign these so that I can complete your application for amnesty for Boipatong" that was the crux of the discussion, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am the one who gave her the statement, yes.

MR LOWIES: And you signed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: In other words you signed the statement that you gave her?   Sorry?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Who is Mongese?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know that person, the person identified himself as Mongese from Johannesburg.

MR LOWIES: Did he say why he is coming to visit you, on what authority, on whose request?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I cannot recall who had sent that Mongese to me.

MR LOWIES: Did he say why he is there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mongese wanted to know, to get information about the Boipatong Massacre and wanted to assist me filling in the application form.

MR LOWIES: Did he assist you to fill in any form?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I gave Mongese information which was written down.

MR LOWIES: But written down and filling in a form is a different thing, do you know the difference?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mongese used paper similar to the ones you are having here, I was speaking as he or she was writing.

MR LOWIES: Could you just show us the paper that you are referring to when you say paper similar to these here?  Could you just identify these papers with the permission of the Chair?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He would like - like this one, papers like this one.

MR LOWIES: He indicates a writing pad.  Thank you Chair.
Is this an appropriate time to take the lunch Chair?  Chair at this time I may still be for a half an hour or so.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: I say I may be with this aspect for half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.   We'll take the adjournment now and come back at quarter to 2.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, may I remind you that you're still under oath?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o.)  Yes thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: (cont)
	Thank you Chair.	
	Mr Nosenga, your evidence is somewhat confusing regarding this Brian person who went to see you.  What was the purpose of his visit, did he explain that to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I cannot recall, he did come to me but I cannot recall.

MR LOWIES: Well, can I ask you this ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall what he said, yes he did come to me.

MR LOWIES: Can I ask you this, did you discuss with this Brian person the question of amnesty.  It doesn't matter for what or in regard to what but did you discuss the question of amnesty with him at all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only knew him when he came to Stofberg wanting to know about the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: Wanting to know what?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He wanted to know what happened at Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Did he say why?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No he just asked me what happened at Boipatong and I told him.

MR LOWIES: Now off the record - off the subject for a little bit, it is common cause that what happened this morning, Sir, is the following ...(intervention)