Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-15

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I can't agree with  you more.  That will be the approach in the circumstances and especially given the fact that he himself, not only did he participate, he himself was a victim in his own right because he was also as well on the receiving end, together with his organisation, not on a personal level only, so to speak.  I must be careful to say that.  So in the circumstances Chairperson, I would say the political context within which this happened needs to be taken into account.  Thank you Chairperson.  I'm not taking other points.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mapoma just one matter.  I have no difficulty in my own mind to accept that this was part of an ongoing conflict, but surely if a decision had been taken and if at these meetings these names were bandied about, is it not a difficulty that we have that the persons who actually killed, had no knowledge of this, they just went on a list that was given?

MR MAPOMA: No Ma'am, we do not have evidence that the persons who actually killed did not have knowledge of the meetings and the spirit that was there in those meetings.  I mean Mr Khuzwayo did not say that there were no such meetings or he has no knowledge of such meetings.  It may well be that he knew of those meetings and I mean they are not mutually exclusive, these two scenarios.  Those meetings and the list itself.

ADV BOSMAN: We will have to check the record there, but my recollection is that Mr Khuzwayo was very clear about it that he had no other instructions except simply a general hit list and that he worked from that, but we will check that.

MR MAPOMA: Certainly, Ma'am.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Loonat have you got anything else you want to add?

UNKNOWN: No Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well that concludes the formal proceedings in these two applications.  The Panel will have to consider the matter, consider the evidence and the submissions and the other material before us and endeavour to formulate a decision as soon as the circumstances permit us to do so, at which point we will notify the parties with an interest in this matter.  So in the circumstances the decision in this matter is reserved.
	Now Mr Mapoma, Mr Panday has got one matter left I think on this roll today.  What is the position?  How extensive is that matter?  How much time is it likely to take?  I think I've seen, yes Mr Panday is still here.

MR MAPOMA: I think it can be hardly an hour.  I mean when I had a look on the papers and the victims themselves, the versions that are on the papers don't seem to create much of a dispute which can take much time, so I've got a feeling that it can hardly be an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) what Mr Panday says.    ...(indistinct - mike not on).

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, my problem is, had I known the Commission will continue later than the normal hours, I'd have made arrangements for my consultations to be scheduled to another day, like as I'm aware on Thursday we may very well continue ...(indistinct) but unfortunately today I've got afternoon consultations based on this closing of the day of business.  On Wednesday, not tomorrow, on Wednesday I'll be more than prepared to attend to both my matters on a continual basis and more importantly I've judged the record in terms of the matters as supposed to go on today, I do not see much in dispute, in fact there's nothing in dispute, only possible as to whether one would seek reparation and that is as far as it may go.  I can't foresee taking as long as the matter that we attended earlier today.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  That takes care of it.  Then Mr Mapoma, I think you must fit in this matter of Mr Panday's with the other one that he's got, hopefully on Wednesday because we were talking in terms of trying to expedite that one, bringing it a bit forward.  It doesn't look as if it is likely to take too much of time, so I think we'll be able to handle it on Wednesday, if it's possible.  Yes, very well.  ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MAPOMA: No, I was just going to acknowledge that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No, very well.  Then we have come to the end of the roll today.  Ms Loonat and Ms Jelal, we thank you very much for your assistance in these matters, it's appreciated.  You're excused.  We will now adjourn and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS