Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-20

MR NOTUNUNU: Oh, I see.  You are saying in the press conference, I refer to it as press conference, in the press conference they were holding, they were attacking the ANC and also its leadership?
	The witness Honourable Chair, Honourable members of the Panel says he has got something he wants to highlight.  I think I must give him the chance.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: To add.

MR NOTUNUNU: Okay, please highlight the thing that you want to say, you want to highlight.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: They called themselves the new ANC when they got here.

MR NOTUNUNU: By that Mr Matshaya, what did you understand it to mean, the new ANC, was there any new ANC in so far as you know?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: No, no sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you.  Now, they called themselves the new ANC.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: And they further went for a press conference.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: In which conference they attacked the ANC as an organisation and also the ANC leadership?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Correct.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, there has been some mention in papers of a meeting which was apparently held at Mr Prince Madikizela's house.
	I haven't covered that in your affidavit.  Do you know about the said meeting?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, I know about the meeting.

MR NOTUNUNU: What was the purpose of the said meeting Mr Matshaya?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you must allow him to tell us what the purpose is.

MR NOTUNUNU: That is it.  Thank you Honourable Chair.  The Honourable Chair would like you to tell us what the purpose of the meeting was.

MFANELO MATSHAYA: The purpose of the meeting, we went to inform them as the MK members, then there were the internal leadership in Transkei.  We had to inform them about the security crisis that was prevailing at the time.
	We went to brief them, so that they would be alert.  We told them that there had been Askaris that had infiltrated inside the Transkei.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, you wanted to alert them about the Askaris, which had infiltrated into Transkei?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now besides, Mr Matshaya, informing them, was there anything which really depended on them?  What I want to know, I want to know the role they played in the killing of Mr Phungulua if there is any?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: We were just informing them that they also should be alert.  They were not involved.
	We were soldiers, they were in the political side, we did not, were not involved together in anything as such.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Mr Matshaya.  May we now go to the actual killing of Mr Phungulua, the shooting itself.
	I understand that in your evidence you have said it, the four of you, it was yourself, two applicants, that is Mr Kubukeli and Mr Ndzamela and also the late Mr Akga Thia.
	Could you tell us how you went to a place where you found and killed this Mr Phungulua?  It is common cause of course that this occurred at Khangaliswe township, just outside Umtata.  How did you go there Catera?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: We knew that they were there, we would look at them.  We deployed our own people, there was a surveillance to see who they worked with.

MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Matshaya, I might not be very much familiar with the military terms, I am not a military man, what do you mean by we had deployed?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: I mean each person had a task around town, the main points that we thought they would go to, we left people there, they would observe them.
	Then we would be informed and then we would follow them from that information that we had received.

MR NOTUNUNU: Then as you have said ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that there was a surveillance mechanism employed in order to establish what their movements were?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: We just wanted to know what contacts they had in the Transkei, the people that assisted them.  All such information, you must know about the enemy.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chairman.  Now you  made the surveillance and question, deployments at Catera, and then what happened thereafter?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: We followed them in two groups, myself and comrade Ndibulele.  Yster Pumlani was with comrade Akga, we were in two cars.

MR NOTUNUNU: In one car there was yourself and comrade Ndzamela and in the other one it was Mr Pumlani Kubukeli and the late Akga?
	Why did you not get into one car, I mean there you are, all of you MK cadres and you are on an MK mission, why did you not get into one car, the four of you?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: We did not want to make ourselves a big target because we thought they would ambush us as well.  We had to split up for security reasons.
	The others had to cover us.

MR NOTUNUNU: Kubukeli and Thia were the cover up, covering yourself and Mr Ndzamela?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, they were the covering group.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, tell us, tell the Honourable Chair and the Honourable members of the Committee, what happened when you got to Khangaliswe?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: When we got to Khangaliswe back location, we were following a taxi because they were in that taxi.
	They tried to confuse us a number of times, we were determined to find them, and we were right behind them.  We did not want to lose them until we got to the back location at the stop.
	What then happened was that a taxi can just stop anywhere, we had not thought that the taxi was going to stop, they got out of the taxi, the one was identified by comrade Ndips.

MR NOTUNUNU: By Ndips for the purpose of clarification, you refer to Ndibulele Ndzamela, your co-applicant here?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  I think then one identified Ndibulele Ndzamela, and then what happened then?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: I had already gotten out of the car, because Ndips couldn't do anything, he was driving.  I had to get out also to cover him, to protect him.

MR NOTUNUNU: Yes, and then what did you do?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Immediately after I got out, the deceased threw a jersey on my face.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see, and then what happened thereafter?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: I took cover, I was armed.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did you fire?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: I shot him.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, these people were two.  You fired at one of them, now what happened to the other one, Mr Luthando Dyasophu?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: He just escaped because there were civilians all around in the area.  I would have shot him, but there were too many civilians walking around.
	What happened is I just shot in the air, just to scare the people and then we drove off.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would you have shot him?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: They were both our targets.  He was the same as Phungulua at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I want to get at, you say they were targets, targets of what?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: They were the enemy, they were a threat to our lives, our security so we had to act.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that it was always the intention to kill them?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, we had intended to shoot them and to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: And this surveillance tactics, was that all in the operation, in preparing the killing?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, of course.  Correct.

MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Matshaya, at the time you fired at the late Mr Phungulua, where were the two comrades, that is Mr Kubukeli and Mr Thia?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: They were not at the scene exactly.  As I said the taxi just stopped abruptly, therefore they were still coming.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, there you are ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask something?  The other car which was not there at that crucial time, was that part of the operation of preparing to kill them?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Is that other car the one you say it had the other MK cadres who were a cover up, who covered the two of you?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.