Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

CHAIRPERSON: Did the people not say to you: "We are going to Bophuthatswana for this or that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I saw it over the news and I heard some of it.

CHAIRPERSON: But in the AWB circles, didn't they discuss it?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: According to me there were a few AWB members involved in the Bophuthatswana incident.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as I can remember they did take responsibility for it or am I wrong?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I am not quite sure no.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, as a result of your indication earlier this morning, I can see now that it is 3 o clock, do you want me to continue?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir it seems as if you are a very soft person, is that so?  This is how it appears to me. I am now talking, I am not a lawyer any more I am talking a man to man.

MR MALAN: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: What feeling do you get?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That he is a very soft spoken person and gentle person.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I am gentle but I do not think that you must get me at the wrong side.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I would just like to make the comment that you do remind me of Gerrie Coetzee when he was younger. Would you agree with that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: His appearance Mr Chairperson.
	You were sent by the then government to go and fight in a war in 1979 to 1981, is that correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Please repeat?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were sent by the then government to go and fight in a war during the period of 1979 to July 1981?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What rank did you have while you were busy with those border operations?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I was a troop.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did that war have any effect on you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, we went through many things.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I am sorry I did not hear your answer.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes it did have an effect on me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What was the effect that it had on you?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That you were taken from your home, for two years you must do service, suddenly you are at the border, you were sent into an Angola without a passport in another country.

CHAIRPERSON: Would a passport have helped?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: No, I am just mentioning it now.  You were sent into an Angola, you are in an operation and you fight for self-determination also at that stage we fought for this country against communism and communism at that time was the ANC government or the present government, the majority of them, and SWAPO and the PAC. There was a lot of loss of life and some of our own people who were with us we lost them there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steyn, if there was not an alliance with the communists, what would your attitude have been towards the ANC?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that the communism, communistic aspect of the ANC was a problem and that you fought against communism.  What would your attitude be towards the ANC if they did not have an alliance with the communists?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I believe that my attitude would have been different Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: To what effect?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: If they were not part of our enemy then you can classify him differently.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the Nationalists as far as I know did not have a communists aspect in their policy, why were they the enemy?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Because they were traitors in my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: I just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you say your attitude towards the ANC would have been different if the communists were not part of them, if you saw the ANC as non-communistic.  Now I just want to make sure, would that have meant then that you would have been satisfied that they run the country, the whole country that is?  You said that you wanted a Volkstaat?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: The Volkstaat is an old ideal that comes from the time the AWB was founded, several times before that.  Let's try and put it differently, if things - you know who Inkatha is?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes.

MR MALAN: They not communists as far as you are concerned?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes.

MR MALAN: And you were in favour of them?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: If you realised that Inkatha was going to govern the whole country, they are going to have the majority vote, would you have been happy then?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes Chairperson but we still would have wanted our own Volkstaat where we could have self-determination.

MR MALAN: So the own Volkstaat is non-negotiable whether you are dealing with communists or not?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You went through a war in 1979 and 1981 and you saw that it did not work, it did not help, you were completely dissatisfied with what you achieved, is that correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I wasn't dissatisfied we did achieve a lot but the then National government, and if I remember correctly in the nineties the PAC and the ANC they disbanded these organisations and they made them legal if I can put it that way, it was no longer an illegal affair this ANC, PAC.   That told me that we did not fight for nothing but if only they helped us at that stage then it would have been different.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But in your eyes this country you fought for during the border war this is being given away by the Nationalists now.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir why did you want to become involved in a second war?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Chairperson it is to fight for self-determination, I was willing to give my life for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, a few months before this event the AWB, these were the allegations, they tried to do something to Bophuthatswana and according to reports they lost very badly there.  What made you think that you could face the force of South Africa, white and black during the elections?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Chairperson, as I already testified, according to myself and the information which was available to me there were a very few AWB members who went to Bophuthatswana, the majority of them were Freedom Front people.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to argue with you but what made you think that you can face the force of the rest of South Africa and win?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Chairperson, if we can go back into the history, it is the same as the Battle of Bloodriver where there were only a few Boers and they defeated a great majority of people because their religious life was intact.  I think in this case as well, if your religion is right then you don't have to have a massive force behind you in order to be victorious.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir, when you received your training for the then National government in the army were you indoctrinated?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Chairperson, I do not understand that word. I have boxed already, I'm sorry.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That aspect I will leave Mr Chairman.
	Let's continue.  You were scared to take your wife with you but when the promises were made you decided well now I am going to take my wife to Ventersdorp, is that correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I wasn't scared to take her, the choice was hers, I just didn't want to leave her there on her own.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Where did she live when you moved to Ventersdorp the first time?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: In the Springs district.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And they made promises to you and they told you there would be food?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: They told you money is not a problem?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is so yes.