Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Julian, I think you have given us a very graphic account of what day by day life in prison is like.  How old were you in 1985?

JULIAN STUBBS: 17.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you went into jail you were 19?

JULIAN STUBBS: 19, Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what are you doing now?

JULIAN STUBBS: Fortunately for me, as I said, when I was released I could come back to college, guys helped me get through that first year.  I am sure if I had not made it through that first year I would have said, to hell with this, I am going to leave, I am going to go work or whatever.  Guys helped me through that first year and the lecturers as well.  Second year, third year and fourth year and, okay, I made it.  Unfortunately, when I had qualified having, when I qualified they were busy retrenching teachers so there was not, there were not any posts available.  Had I not left for that year I could possibly have had a permanent post, but anyway I am glad I am out of teaching now.  I, eventually after three years of jumping from school to school temporarily, three months here, two months there I decided to apply outside of the teaching profession and I am working for Old Mutual now in Pinelands.  So, I mean, at the end of the day, if I look back I think, okay, I have worked through it, I have, I am where I want to be.  Maybe I just have not recognised how it has affected me, but I am feeling okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the fact that you have a criminal record affected your life in any way, your capacity for employment or anything like that?

JULIAN STUBBS: Funnily enough, not.  At the time when I was still looking for a teaching post, that was 92, okay, President Mandela had not been released or, no, he had been released, but they, I mean, the elections were still far off and when I would apply people could see what was coming in the future and when I would apply to a school, the principal, I would tell them upfront, look, I have a criminal record, this is it, that is why, etc, etc.  It was never a problem for them and even when I applied at Old Mutual as well, fortunately the person interviewing me was not worried about me having that record.  As long as I explained why, you know.  If I had just told them, look, I have a criminal record, certainly, they would have a problem with it, but I, I mean, from point A to Z I explained everything to them and I have been able to actually find employment even with the criminal record, but I would still like it to be expunged though.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Julian.  I have no further questions at this stage, but I will ask my fellow Commissioners if they do.  Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: It is not really a question, it is really a response more than anything else.  I think you gave us a very graphic picture of the sense of shock of almost unbelieving the kind of random nature, for example, of the arrests.  The fact that it was some of you rather than all of you, that the charges seemed so arbitrary.  I think it is a very clear picture of the events of the time.  As you started to talk and then you articulated it yourself more clearly to the effect of parents and siblings and community of something like this, both good and bad, that sense of community of mobilisation of coming together, but also the huge pressure that it puts on any parent to have a child, and such a young child, be taken into prison in the circumstances that you described and I think it makes us realise the huge effects of those events on the lives of so many, many people.  So thank you, too, for coming to talk to us today.

CHAIRPERSON: Julian, it remains for me to thank you and Dee for coming to illustrate what was apparently a strategy of the Government at that stage and that was the criminalisation of political activity and young people who were fighting for democracy were made into criminals and sent to jail and it is, obviously, one of the iniquities which the Truth Commission has to investigate and comment on and make sure that it never happens again.  So thank you for bringing this too to our attention.