Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR PRIOR: The Cape Argus Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you think it's '96?

MR PRIOR: That seems to be the writing on top of the - but I'll have a clearer copy Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If you could please and you might - if you are going to follow this line ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: If you're going to follow this line, my recollection is that some two months or three months ago, a similar report was made allegedly emanating from some senior person in APLA or the PAC alleging infiltration - it was a public statement, it appeared in the press.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be followed  up.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Langford?  ...[inaudible] your full names Mrs Langford?

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: I am Andrea Jeanette Langford.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed with your questions.

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: I'm the mother of the late Bernadette Langford and I'd like to ask you Mr Madasi - you said in your statement that you did not know who you were going to shoot, you knew that they were the oppressor yet when you entered the tavern you could see that these were unarmed people, they were enjoying themselves.  If you could use your initiative to go into the tavern which was not in order as you said, why could you not use the same initiative not to shoot when you saw that these were just young people enjoying themselves.  Could you answer me on that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: This lady is asking if I could not see whether these were people that were unarmed, is that the question?

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: You could see yes when you went in, because you went in  ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Excuse me a moment, excuse me for interrupting you.  I am a soldier Madam , I was given an order, I was taught one thing, to obey these orders.  Whether I saw that the people were unarmed or armed, the order was such that I should not go there to assess whether people were armed or unarmed and what race they were.  I don't agree with you Madam.  I don't know whether I've answered you in a satisfactory manner.

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: I've asked you this for the simple reason that you said you used your initiative to got in, no-one said to you: "Go in" at the time when you did and I'm speaking to that same person who used his initiative then.  Could you not have used that same initiative when you saw that these were not armed people?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Madam with respect, as I took the initiative to go in my concern was my comrades.  As I said before the Committee, the reason I took the initiative to go in is because I saw that there was somebody who emanated from the side where  my comrades were shooting - running towards my side.  I did not know what he was carrying or what he was going to do.  I was going to protect my comrades and myself.    I don't know if you have the answer now.

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: I'll say to that: "I hear you".  I'm going to ask you another question Mr Madasi, I need to know, I really need to know how you felt when you saw what you had done to human life.  I really, really need to know that because, can you remember their faces maybe?  Can you remember how shocked they looked?  Can you remember when they fell?  Can you remember anything about that, when that happened because I ask you this for the simple reason because when you got away, you showed much more feeling for the vehicle that the vehicle shouldn't be damaged yet you'd just come away from showing no feeling towards life.
	I need to know how can one go from one kind of a feeling to another in the same instance, the same happening.  I need to know how you can cope with that, how did you feel and how do you feel now?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Madam, I don't want it to seem like I'm a racist - the conditions that we lived under here in AZANIA led to such incidents as the oppressed by the culprits.  Everybody who was oppressed is clear of who the oppressor was.  I know that nobody has a right - whatever race, to take somebody else's life.  However, under the conditions that we lived in at that time, the people that oppressed us did a whole lot of things - shedding the blood of the oppressed.  The same people went to church and prayed and called themselves Christians.  I know it is painful to lose a loved one, someone as close as your daughter.  We ...[indistinct] as the oppressed and we've lost our loved ones under the oppressor.  The casualties or in connection - I don't have an opportunity to explain to the next of kin and tell them what I was all about at that time.   I don't know if you have the sufficient answer.

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: You haven't told me how you feel - how you felt about their lives, that's important to me.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Under the reasons which I have given - yes, it is painful for a life to be lost however under the conditions then that led to my being here today, it was the situation in the country in AZANIA at large.  I would appreciate a moment where I could clarify and show that it was the conditions in the country that led to such.  I was not forced to do what I did and I did not do it because I did not want to.
	I joined APLA as an army that fought for the freedom of Africans.  This struggle for liberation had no colour to it however, a person who would stunt the work of the army would be identified as an oppressor.  What you're insinuating that I cared more about a car than people's lives, I want to clarify that point.  That car - there was no reason to damage it because it was a comrade's car.  He gave in and let us use his car, he contributed to the struggle in the liberation of our people.
	You as people who lost loved ones, your daughters, your husbands - I would appreciate a moment where we could sit and talk because now we're at another level altogether, I want to be part of that level.  I don't know if you have your answer.

ANDREA JEANNETTE LANGFORD: I would say thank you to that for the moment Mr Madasi.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs January?  What are your full names Mrs January?

MRS JANUARY: I am Clarissa January, mother of Michael January one of the survivors.  Good afternoon Mr Madasi and the other two
applicants.  I want to ask of you, in your application for amnesty you are asking the survivors and the next of kin or families for forgiveness but thus far you have shown no remorse whatsoever to give us some sort of comfort - you have shown us nothing.  
	You have only spoken of the orders and the killings that you have done.  I understand a great deal of your suffering - we have also suffered but I think it's about time that you must face us and ask us directly for forgiveness, that's all I want to say to you or ask you - if there is an answer.