Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Menyatsoe, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with your indulgence, and Members of the Committee, about the appearance of the journalist.  This was sorted out yesterday between myself and my learned friend.  Only one journalist will be coming, Mr Peter de Ionne from Johannesburg.
	I called him yesterday and informed him to be here, and he said he will be here as early as possible.  He made a plea that he be heard first because he's got a son visiting from the UK, who wants to go back faster.  We have agreed with my friend that he can continue with cross-examination and as soon as he arrives we are going to ask for a short adjournment for him to consult with him quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr van der Berg, at the close of yesterday's proceedings you were still questioning the witness.  You may proceed.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it pleases you Chairperson.  Last night we looked at the videos once again and according to the videos we saw that I'LL have to repeat certain of the questions in order to get clarity.  So in the end that will shorten that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sure, you can continue.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, I want to refer to the shooting incident which took place.  When you shot at the Mercedes Benz, how long did it take before the Mercedes Benz came to a standstill?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't remember how long it took but it was a very short time, but I cannot recall precisely.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, I also understood your evidence yesterday, when the Mercedes Benz came to a standstill you ran towards the Mercedes Benz, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, - sorry, Mr van der Berg, at that stage when you started to run to the Mercedes Benz, can you approximate or indicate how far away were you from the Mercedes Benz when you started to run towards it?  If you can't describe the difference, if you could point it out perhaps.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It might be from where I am to the entrance where the gentlemen have just walked in.

CHAIRPERSON: To those green doors?  Would counsel agree on what, 15 paces?  Approximately 15 paces?

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, you must have been one of the first people who arrived at the scene, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to me yes, I was the first one.

MR VAN DER BERG: And when you got there, where were the passengers of the Mercedes Benz?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They were - they had already alighted the car and sitting on the ground, as I've explained yesterday.

MR VAN DER BERG: Very well.  Did you tell them to go and lie down on the ground or were they lying there by themselves?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They were sitting and the other one was already lying on the ground, and I didn't instruct him to.

MR VAN DER BERG: But you also heard them saying: "Don't shoot", is that not true?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I said so yesterday.

MR VAN DER BERG: Do you agree with me, if somebody says: "Don't shoot", it means he's surrendering, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: In a war situation I wouldn't just agree, therefore I disagree with what you are saying.  I wouldn't believe them.  In a war situation, if somebody says: "Don't shoot", I wouldn't believe that they are surrendering because it is a war situation.  Because he might shoot me immediately after having said that.

MR VAN DER BERG: The people were lying on the ground and they had their hands in the air, they're surrendering, they show you that they're not going to do anything, are you still going to shoot them?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They're lying on the ground and raising their hands did not stop me from shooting them because it was a war situation prevailing.  Even they had lay down in their position and surrendering, but because of the fact that we were in a war situation, I didn't believe them.

MR VAN DER BERG: So you say even if they do surrender you'd still shoot them because it's a war situation?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.  In a war situation, if you were determined that I shouldn't shoot you, I wouldn't be concerned with you, I'd go ahead and shoot you because it's a war situation.  And moreover, you have already done away with so many lives and moreover, if you had already injured me I wouldn't, I would go ahead and shoot you.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, when you were at that scene I'm sure the media people also came closer to the car, is that not true?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I told you yesterday that I didn't see any people around them and I did not know as to where journalists were or any media people.  I told you that I saw nobody.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sorry, let me ask you this, when you stood at the Mercedes Benz, before you shot the people, did you see any media people there?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was looking at the Mercedes and I didn't see any media people that you are referring to.  I was solely concentrating on the Mercedes and these three AWB members and that is all.

MR VAN DER BERG: Do you say categorically that you did not see any media people there?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I've said that yesterday and I'm still insisting.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, I'd like to tell you, the video we watched yesterday, it was obviously that there were a lot of media people there.  We can also show the court other videos which would indicate that as well.  There were other media people around.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not disagree with what you saw on the videos and the fact that there were people there, but myself, Menyatsoe, did not see them. I not disagree with what you saw in the video, I was solely focusing on the three men.  I said this yesterday and I'm still maintaining that.

MR VAN DER BERG: Is it correct that you stood at the Mercedes Benz the whole time, up until the time that you shot at three AWB men.  You were there the whole time, is that not correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not understand if you say: "all the time".

MR VAN DER BERG: When you got to the Mercedes Benz, from the time you got there were you there the whole time at the scene up until the point that you shot them?

CHAIRPERSON: What he's asking, Mr Menyatsoe, is when you got to the vehicle, did you at any stage leave again and come back or did you remain there the whole time until you shot them?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I explained that I started running towards the Mercedes and I spoke to those people, I shot them and then I left them.  That is what I said yesterday.

MR VAN DER BERG: But you do not answer my question.  The question is, a certain amount of time passed from the time when you got to the Mercedes Benz, and according to your own version you were there first, up until the time when you shot the people, so a certain amount of time passed.  The question I'm asking you is, were you there the whole time at the Mercedes Benz or not?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said I came to the Mercedes Benz and I spoke to those gentlemen and I shot then, then I left the scene immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it can be taken from that Mr van der Berg that he didn't leave the scene.  When he got there he stayed there the whole time until the shooting.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it pleases you.
	Mr Menyatsoe, the video we saw yesterday, and you made us watch this, Mr Uys who was at the left back wheel of the Mercedes, he said that he was lying there from 15 to 20 minutes.  Have you heard that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I heard that but I said that I did not know for how long was he lying there.  I do not disregard or disagree with what the Tebbutt Commission said regarding the time span.