Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

MR VISSER: Chairperson, if Mr Wills wants to dispute that, that was said by Mr Wills to both Mr Wagener and myself in the hall during an adjournment after we had for about the fourth time, asked for photographs.  But if Mr Wills wants to dispute it, Chairperson, let me read to you what is at page 1905.  Mr Wills in the second part of - one third from the bottom
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CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity to discuss the possibility of going off on an inspection?"
says the Chairman.  
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MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Firstly, on the photographs I just want to place on record that the family have no problem in handing over photographs.  The problem being, is that the family's homes are no longer in the KwaZulu Natal area and the family is employed in Pretoria and obviously Mr Kubheka is in Denmark, but we will endeavour to get those photographs as soon as possible and hand them over.  We have no objection to do that.  I have discussed with Wagener they types of photographs he wants and we'll try to oblige him in that regard."
That's what I'm referring to.  That's the discussion I'm referring to.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, if I could just emphasise this because much play is being made in this regard.  We have tried to oblige in that regard.  We have done searches, the family have done searches for photographs.  At no stage did I say we have definitely got photographs.  I, as can be seen from the context of this transcript, I certainly have never seen the photographs.  We assumed that there may be photographs in Pretoria, searches have been done and no additional photographs have been found.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but when - at that stage did we have these photographs?

MR WILLS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, where did these photographs come from?  I mean we've got photographs and they're here in these Figures, 26 etcetera, 26 to 30.

MR WILLS: Now these photographs, Mr Chairperson, were handed to the - as I understand it, were handed to the Truth Commission much before my involvement in this matter and they were retained by the persons giving medical evidence, and after the searches for photographs it was established that there were no other photographs and that these were the only remaining photographs.  And all I can say, and I don't think Mr Visser's being fair, with respect he's trying to say that we are - the inference of his evidence is that we are trying hide evidence from this Commission, and with respect, that isn't the case.  Searches have been done for photographs and no other photographs can be found.  It's as simple as that.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, can I also put it on record that the TRC did not have any photographs in their possession.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see there can't be - I'm just thinking aloud, I can't see any reason why some photos would be made available and not others.  I mean you don't have a photograph of - you know if you're going to hand five or six, if there's five or six available, there's no real reason why others should be withheld.

MR VISSER: Except one thing Chairperson, and that is I'm going to make certain, and I may say strong submissions in this regard to the Panel at the end of the day, because Chairperson, you will recall that we didn't just ask for photographs, we knew that what was in issue here were the length and the girth of Mrs Kubheka and possibly the teeth.  We asked specifically for two types of photographs.  One, showing her teeth and another type of photograph being a group photograph, preferably by people standing in a group with her, identifiable people.  Those are the photographs we've asked.  There was never any talk about any other photographs, those were the ones we were interested in.  That's what we discussed with Mr Wills and we asked this Committee all the time.

MR WILLS: Yes.  If I can just add to that.  I concede that and I will place on record that I requested my clients to search for photographs like that.  When they - after the last hearing, when they went back to Pretoria they conducted searches to that effect and my instructions were to the effect that there are no other photographs and I had communications I think in writing with Ms Thabethe prior to the setting up of this hearing, where that fact was known, that the only photographs that were available were those given to the medical practitioners and the family has not objection in those being handed over to Mr Visser.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Wills.  Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.  If I may continue.
	You referred to a photo album, is that what you referred to just now?

MR LAX: Collection.

MR VISSER: Collection, sorry.  Thank you.
	What do you mean by a photo collection?  Is it in an album or what?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: My photo collections as it is.

MR VISSER: Is it in an album, a photo album?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I suppose it entails both because I've got the photos that are not in an album, I've got photos in an album.  But maybe before I come to that question, can I before we seal up the previous question of the photographs?  One, if we had known and you have clearly stated that you wanted the photos that were showing the teeth, as the family we were going to say or respond back to say even the Doctors had asked when they were asking for photos.  They had asked for the photos specifically amongst others, the photos that would be showing the teeth where she is smiling or laughing so to speak, so that it will be easier for them, but we were not able to provide that.
	But also what comes up is the fact that my sister stays, Sibongile Gugu, she stays in Pretoria, so you cannot specifically say I stay in Pretoria and you asked for it.  We both stay in Pretoria, so it wasn't necessarily put clear which one was going to find the photos, but being members of the family, both, we were going to look in our collections for the photos.
	The photos that are available and I'm talking about, I've stressed that's the photos that I have provided.  And for the fact the photos that are here are my copies.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this your entire set depicting the deceased, Ntombi?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: These are the copies I had of my sister that were left.  The other copies that I had been sent whilst I was outside - I wasn't in one country, in one occasion I was in Swaziland where my suitcase was taken and was never brought back, when the house I was staying in was searched by the Swazis, so I lost those copies there.  I'm just only left with these copies that are here.  So I provided all these photos.  Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Are you a person who likes collecting photographs of your family?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: And your sister, Sibongile?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: She does keep family photographs of course.

MR VISSER: You know what I find amazing is that in total we have five photographs of a person who grew to the age of 41 years and who had three sisters and a brother and a mother and a father, it's just amazing ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Hang on, why is it so amazing, Mr Visser?  With the greatest of respect, the sort of tone of your question is not fair and I'm a bit unhappy about it.  To say that it's amazing - you've been told of their financial circumstances, I mean you're making all sorts of assumptions in saying it's amazing that there are no other photographs, about their financial ability, their economic status, access to cameras.  With the greatest of respect, I think it's a bit of an insensitive question.

MR VISSER: I will argue it, you don't have to answer it.