Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-19

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: What was happening, the buses that are driven in our townships are driven by black people or a Coloured person or an Indian person.

MS PATEL: Alright.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: In South Africa no white man in those days will go to the township and drive a bus.

MS PATEL: Yes, sure one accepts that.  And the government vehicles?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: The government vehicles which were driven in the township were driven by also coloured people, sometimes accompanied by a white person, but as long as you are black - if you are a white person you must be within the vicinity of people who will be able to protect you at that time.  But if you are a sole or a lonely white person roaming around in the township, then you are making yourself a serious target.

MS PATEL: Okay.  And the reference to other unauthorised motor vehicles, what is that a reference to?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: What I wanted to say in this affidavit when I was talking about unauthorised motor vehicles, I was talking about these white vehicles, it's an unauthorised, it was not supposed to be there at that time.  Like for instance - I just want to mention an event here in 1976, why we decided that any unauthorised vehicle.
	In 1976, my friend who stayed at NY114, who was shot in front of me by the police who disguised themselves as the post office workers.  So that gave us an experience from the age of 16 up until to the age of 20 years that was an unmemorable thing that I can forget, a man who was shot behind his head.  And he lay in the mortuary, his people thinking that he is dead and yet he was not dead, he is alive even today.

MS PATEL: Mr Beaton, was he the first white person that the crowd had come across that day?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, exactly.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you recall - I accept that it was a spontaneous action, but if I can take you back, can you recall whether there was any decision amongst the crowd or whether people - what were people saying when they saw his vehicle come?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: As I have said, a white man was an enemy and I'm saying this honestly and openly.  Any black person, be it an Indian person or a Coloured person who lives in South Africa, at that time will know that a white man in that vicinity was known as nothing else, as an enemy.  I have said here, I have mentioned that I come from a political school that once believed that every white person is an enemy, up until I changed that and I adopted a non-racial ..(indistinct) belief, entering into a new political school.

MS PATEL: This change in your belief, it took place prior to this incident taking place, not so?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, I have said so.

MS PATEL: If all white people then were not seen as targets, that according to you the approach of the African National Congress was a non-racial one, can I ask you why didn't anybody approach Mr Beeton to ask him anything, why he was there, what he was doing there?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, exactly, your question is very objective.  This was what was supposed to happen, but now objective as it is, your question, the event at that time, the situation at that time, you being an ANC supporter or anything wouldn't have helped because of the anger.  I won't lie and say here that I have stopped the crowd.  I didn't stop the crowd, I in fact assisted the crowd, I helped the crowd because we were sending a message across to white people that even without guns we can make a difference.

MS PATEL: Okay.  If I can just put to you my instructions from Mr Beeton's son, who is present here.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Thank you.

MS PATEL: He says his father was in the area because he was dropping off some co-workers and he wouldn't - he says his father was that kind of person, he wasn't going to drop at the edge of the township and make them walk home, he would rather, despite you know what was going on, he would drop them off at home and he was on his way back out of the township when this incident occurred.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, I would agree with him, but what is happening here is that the situation at that time it's just like being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  This is what.  Mr Beeton was caught in the crossfire, simply just like that.  It was not planned that Mr Beeton will come this way and when Mr Beeton per se, when he comes we will do 1, 2, 3.  He was just an ordinary white man who was caught in a crossfire during that time.

MS PATEL: Do you say the same for Mr Jansen?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Exactly the same.  Those people - just to add more.  Those people were South Africans and South Africans who were living in the other part of the world within the country.  Hence I have come forward and said that I apologise, I ask for forgiveness.  I am not saying the families they must forget what happened to their loved ones, but at least to forgive me for had happened, because what we are interested in now is to build this honest country.

MS PATEL: If I can just take to one or two of these specific allegations that you've made in your supplementary affidavit and what is stated in the judgment by the Honourable Williamson, Judge Williamson.  You've stated regarding Mr Jansen, that he was pulled out of the vehicle first, then the vehicle was set alight.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: That's correct.

MS PATEL: If I can just refer you to page 88 of the bundle.  There was a certain Lilian Umsotho who testified at the trial, can you recall that?  I know the trial took a long time, over two years.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, it was 19 years ago.  Ja, but I can still recall some of the State witnesses who gave evidence in our trial.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can I just refresh your memory for you.  According to her, she says first of all, the crowd stopped the vehicle, then she says it was stoned and then set alight.
"... Mr Jansen climbed out through the window, all aflame and then he sat in the puddle, trying to extinguish the flames"
That is different to what you have said to us here today.  What is your comment on that?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja.  On that, this Ms Umsotho was a State witness, that I want to mention before anything and it is a known fact in South Africa, State witnesses were literally being taught how to talk even if they don't know you.  Like in the case of - in my case, Carol Plaatjies didn't know me, Carol talked about me in the court because they were shown photos which were taken in detention you see.  So that when you talk about this person, when you point that person you must point a person whom you were shown before.  So what she is saying I dispute it and I was there.  I am the one who pulled with other people Mr Jansen out of the car and he sat next to a petrol can.

MS PATEL: Okay.  And you deny that Mr Jansen was stabbed.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, I deny the fact that Mr Jansen was stabbed by me.  As it's being said in the court records.  I totally deny that.

MS PATEL: And was he stabbed by anybody else there, can you recall?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: No, I can't recall, but I have never seen anybody stabbing Mr Jansen.  There were stones, it might have been a sharp stone because there are different stones, there's a round stone, there's a sharp stone.  It might be - there were all sorts of ...(indistinct) that people had on that particular day.  A sharp stone can possible cause a deep scar from the head.

MS PATEL: Ja, in fairness to you, the medical evidence was inconclusive that he was in fact stabbed with a knife, but there was an incision on his head that was commensurate with that of a sharp object.
	You say that after Mr Jansen was left there the crowd moved off and you then went off to the primary school, which was the meeting point for making petrol bombs.  What was the purpose of this?