Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

LOTHAR NEETHLING: As far as I can remember, it's 15 years ago already.

MR VALLY: And secondly, you earlier on said on one occasion there were 100 000 mandrax tablets, is that correct?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, I said that at one stage we had up to 100 000 tablets in our possession as the cases built up and we repossess these things, but once a year these tablets were destroyed and we burned it because - it was a mess, it wasn't easy to burn these things.  Iscor wasn't very happy.

MR VALLY: How much mandrax do you think you supplied to ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: An ordinary mandrax tablet's content is 250 milligram, it's a  1/4  gram per tablet.  In other words, four tablets is one gram and 4000 tablets are a kilogram, and a 100 000 tablets are 25 kilograms, if I have to make quick calculations.

MR VALLY: How many tablets - mandrax tablets in total did you supply to Dr Wouter Basson?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I think it was probably between 100 000 and 200 000, between 25 and 50 kilograms of methaqualone, but now I must also say that one is not going to get 100% extraction, and even though we say that there is 250 mg, perhaps you most probably will only get 80%, you'll never 100% back.  So let's make it 50 kilograms maximum as a substance to be used for further synthesis for a changing of the molecules to be more physiologically active, because one of the problems of methaqualone is that you cannot burn it very easily.
 In other words, if you put it into a smoke formulation, then you destroy the active ingredients, and that's the big problem we have with CS, the normal teargas which to South African Police uses.  The problem is that when you put it into the grenade, you pay so much for the grenade, it costs R50,00 of which R30,00 is for the active ingredient, and you only get 15% back.  The other 85% is being burned, it's as good as taking a roll of money and burning it, and this is uneconomical, and that is why CR is so much better.  It has a much better formulation to be broken down into powder form with less activity, less costs and much higher physiological activity.

MR VALLY: Let's just come back to this, I am going to come to CR gas rest assured ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I couldn't hear.

MR VALLY: We will get back to this.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No problem.

MR VALLY: I want to stick to what we're talking about now, in your estimation you gave Dr Wouter Basson between 100 000 and 200 000 mandrax tablets?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Approximately, yes.

MR VALLY: How much LSD did you give him?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I think there wasn't much more than 5000 of the different cases, from 10 or 15 cases, everything was thrown into a holder or container and average activity was not much more that 30 micrograms per tablet.  Let's make it 33.33 micrograms, in other words, one needs 1000 tablets for 1 milligram and 10 000 for 10 milligrams, and then you hope that this is the average activity, because the LSD is inclined to bet light-effective, it changes with light, it deteriorates, or disintegrates and that is why it is kept in silver paper or aluminium paper, it doesn't want light, nor does it want any watery substance, so I don't think I gave him any more LSD than 5 milligrams, but it's a great deal if you say that you have 5 milligrams of pure LSD, then with that you can theoretically put 50 000 men on a trip.  If you can have every chap breathing in 50 micrograms it's an ideal substance, just like ecstasy, if I could give ecstasy to every person, he will not make war, but love, then I can in a matter of 10 minutes, I can change his whole spiritual condition, and this is what happens in the lives of the young people today.  I live behind a rave club and this is definitely not a casino, these people just carry on from Friday till Sunday on two tablets.

MR VALLY: So we've got approximately 5000 LSD tablets, we've got approximately between 100 000 and 200 000 mandrax tablets, how much dagga did you give Dr Basson?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I want to tell you that while you asked these questions, I knew that this question was coming.  I'm trying to recall, but I don't think it was more that 5 bags, 5 of these canvass bags, because we have a big problem at the laboratory that it's not at all equipped for any synthesis or any extraction on a large scale, because our samples are always too small we work on a micro-scale, never on a macro-scale.  If you therefore take dagga and you want to start extracting kilogram of dagga when we do not have to ability.  He had to bring his own pots, I did not have the pots or the glass apparatus to do this.  Where he obtained this I do not know, neither did I ask, but he extracted it and with that he left.  I think that it wasn't more than 5 bags and this took him quite a while because it had to be done bit by bit.
 I will try and calculate this, a bag is approximately 50 kilograms if it is well filled, and the percentage of active ingredient if it is good Durban dagga that you get in the Valley, which the people are crazy about in Europe and wherever, then you can get 2 1/2 % oil from it.  In other words we say that 5 bags X 50 kilograms is 250 kilograms.  250 kilograms X 2,5 , 100 = 2,5 kilograms X 2, gives you approximately 7 kilograms of oil, 8 kilograms if you work very well, but I do not believe that he took 7 kilograms of oil away.  This is now the active ingredient, this must still be - he was still to get another substance from that and 30% thereof is the molecule that I am looking for to start with to be able to make derivatives or to try and get that molecule, so it was most probably a third of 9 kilograms, let's say that is 3 kilograms of active ingredient.  
 In other words, that is what I wanted and with that I hoped to be able to do enough tests to know whether it works or not.  Obviously it did not work because we never heard of it again.  We did not hear about LSD, ...(indistinct), nor about dagga and on two occasions I was involved in the turning into powder of mandrax which became a reality later because they changed the whole formula of burning this - of organic material.  At 55 degrees, everything is broken down, so you must get something that remains cold while you make smoke, and that's not so easy.  
 An ordinary cigarette if you draw in, then the point of that cigarette's temperature is between 500 and 600 degrees Celsius.  The more oxygen that comes through, the higher the temperature goes, and this is what you do not want, and this was the big problem with methaqualone, to get it to such a state that it would end up in the air, and together with the lactose and the prorate and nitrates which are used to combust this, that is still remains active and does not burn.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this will be a convenient stage to go and take lunch and smoke cigarettes and dagga ...(indistinct).  We'll adjourn until 14h00.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Can we get ready to start ladies and gentlemen.
 Mr Vally.  General, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: (s.u.o.)

MR VALLY: General Neethling we have just talked about the quantities of mandrax, LSD and dagga you supplied to Dr Wouter Basson at the request of the Minister of Police in the presence of the Commissioner as well as the Surgeon-General at the time, Dr Nieuwoudt, and you advised us that were informed the purpose was to see if it could be used in some form as a means of crowd control or riot control?