Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I was standing by the door I saw someone emerging from the chairs running past the door - it was well lit, I could see this man.  I did know what he was running to.

MR PRIOR: But he was running away from you, wasn't that the case?  He wasn't coming towards you, he was running away?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know.

MR PRIOR: You say it was lit - the interior was well lit?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, there were lights on, it wasn't too bright but there were lights on - I could see.

MR PRIOR: I want to ask this finally - this question, in that good lighting - the lights, could you see young girls sitting on tables drinking drinks?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I entered shooting, there was already shooting when I entered and when I entered as well I was shooting already - I did not see clearly all the people.

MR PRIOR: Was the rifle grenade not fired first, before you shot?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, it was on my waist.

MR PRIOR: Did you not fire - did you not stand at the door with the rifle already attached onto your rifle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, because the reason why I didn't have that rifle grenade - I was expecting anything as things happened, however both magazines had a blank.  I shot until the magazine was finished, I then used the grenade and I used it on blank.

MR PRIOR: So are you saying that whilst you were still inside the tavern you attached the rifle grenade to your rifle - to the end of the rifle, and then only at that stage shot the rifle grenade?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I want to clarify this matter, after the magazine was finished it first gave me a notice like any other rifle.  I turned it over, I put it on R4, I launched with it as a withdrawal sign - I was still on the passageway.

MR PRIOR: Can you just explain why a rifle grenade was used to give a withdrawal signal and not any other means, for example a flare or a whistle or a shout?  Why a rifle grenade taped with wire nails adhered to it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't think I can answer that, I was given an order to use specific material in a specific way - I obeyed orders that I was given.

MR PRIOR: Who gave you that order?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Comrade Luyanda as the commander of the unit.

MR PRIOR: Did you know what - if that rifle grenade had exploded what - would it have done more than simply signal the withdrawal?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: A grenade is a bomb first of all, it was going to hurt a lot of people, it was going to kill and injure - I knew that.

MR PRIOR: And the idea to tape the nails or glue the nails onto the head of the rifle grenade, was that your own innovation or was that someone else's idea?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We did not take this material from the Transkei, we found it here and we found it as it was.  We found it with the nails on and the wires, we did not add them on.

MR PRIOR: Could you possibly just - this is important, where exactly or can you remember where were you in relation to the doorway when you fired the rifle grenade?  And if you could look at possibly photograph 1b.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The second photograph?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was not too far from the door, I cannot specify and say I was here or there but I know that I wasn't too far from the door, I was on the passageway.

MR PRIOR: Bu you were appreciably inside the premises, in the corridor, in the passage, not out on the street when you fired it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was not on the street, I was inside the tavern not far from the door.

MR PRIOR: Where were you aiming if you look at the photograph?  In the background I understand that is the bar area that you can see between the wall and the staircase, were you aiming in that direction in other words to fire towards the bar - the rear of the premises?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: My back was towards the door, I was facing towards  - I shot towards the direction where I faced.

MR PRIOR: Yes, but just describe it on the photograph, the second photograph 1b.  In which - did you fire it towards the rear of the premises to the left hand side of the staircase?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not notice any steps, I just saw a passageway.  I did not know any entrances or exits well, it was the first time I'd gone there.  I can't say exactly where I was standing but the door wasn't far from me.

MR PRIOR: I'm trying to assist you Mr Madasi.  Were you know afraid in that position that you may be injured if the rifle grenade exploded?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I launched the rifle grenade it did not land right in front of me, it landed quite a distance from me - it takes a number of seconds for it to explode, in those seconds I could have left.

MR PRIOR: At that stage of firing the grenade, was there still shooting going on from Mr Gqomfa, Jantjie?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I went out and shouted withdrawal and then I went into the car, the last person to go into the car was the commander of the unit.

MR PRIOR: When you emerged from the interior that is from inside the tavern and shouted withdrawal, where was Mr Gqomfa?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: He had moved slightly but he was still around the same position, I shouted out withdrawal as I was leaving.

MR PRIOR: Was he looking at you when you shouted withdrawal as you were leaving the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know but he was - I know he was not in the car, he was along the pavement.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree that from the doorway that you exited from to where the double doors are, approximately three paces - four paces maximum?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I cannot estimate but the car wasn't too far off, it would not have taken me long to go into the car.

MR PRIOR: I'm talking about Mr Gqomfa, from where you saw him as you came out of the tavern shouting withdraw, he was a very close distance to you was he not?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: He was not too far from me, what I don't know is which side he was facing.  As I left I was already shouting withdrawal running towards the car.  I saw him after I'd entered the car and the car was already starting to move - that's what I remember.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you from what we say on the video yesterday, it would seem - and if necessary evidence will be lead, that the person who shot inside the tavern entered the premises by the door that we see on the left hand side of photograph 1a, turned right into the seating area ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Excuse me a moment, won't you clarify which door you're talking about?

MR PRIOR: I'm talking about the door you say you entered by.  Is that clear - the door you entered by?  Is that clear?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm listening.

MR PRIOR: That the person who - or persons entered that door, turned right into the seating area of the tavern, proceeded to shoot at the deceased people and the other patrons, moved to the rear of that seating area, turned left towards the bar and then back again down the passage coming towards the door as we see it in photograph 1b, the bottom photograph.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Is the person who's saying - who said that, a person that was in the tavern?

MR PRIOR: I'm suggesting that to you Mr Madasi, that that is in fact what happened and one takes into account that there were bullet marks fired from within towards the door as we saw on the video footage yesterday.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What is your point?

MR PRIOR: I'm suggesting to you that you are not telling us or giving us a full picture of what occurred on that evening.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Sir listen, I was there, I was doing all this, I've come here to disclose exactly what I did. I know that it's been a while since we've been in jail or sentenced, the way I put it forward as a man that was there and doing this, it is as is.

MR PRIOR: Now when you left the tavern you drove away towards C Section, is that correct?