Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: And there must have been occasions, that when the people were busy, the police were busy taking your statement, for example in Mr Lekota's trial, or in any of the other many trials that you testified where they would write the statement, you would check it and you would find mistakes, and the mistakes would be rectified.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you were fully aware all along that it is very important what you say in your witness statement?  That right?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: When in January did you come down to Cape Town?

JIMMY MBANE: It was at the beginning of January.

MR BOOYENS: Early January, in other words.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And is it correct that at first an effort was made to infiltrate one of the policemen with you, the second applicant in this matter, but that didn't succeed.

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: When he came back, did he report anything of the nature of this group of people?  Why he couldn't succeed.

JIMMY MBANE: The only thing that he told me is that the people had suspected him because he didn't have any experience, he didn't have any knowledge about the ANC.

MR BOOYENS: Did he tell you they were dangerous, he was scared of them?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, he told me that's why he ran away.

MR BOOYENS: He was scared for his life.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That is so.  That is why he ran away.

MR BOOYENS: And then you and Eric Maluleka were instructed to try and infiltrate.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Because you had a proper legend, you in fact were trained outside the country.  The only thing that wasn't true is that you were in fact working for the South African Police.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Can  you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR BOOYENS: Well, when you infiltrated, you were going to tell them that you had been trained outside the country, all those things were true.  You were trained outside the country, the lie was that you were not now going in as a supporter of the organisation, but in fact to spy on them.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, that is true.

MR BOOYENS: Now, as you went in, what exactly were your instructions.  What were you going to do?

JIMMY MBANE: The instruction that was given to me was that I was told that these people were destabilising here in Cape Town and they have trained.  So we had to infiltrate them and see how much ammunition did they have.

MR BOOYENS: So this...so was there a group in existence, according to your information?

JIMMY MBANE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR BOOYENS: What you were supposed to infiltrate, was there a group in existence, a certain group of people that were supposed to be destabilising and to have been trained and so on.  Is that right?

MR BOOYENS: A group, as the term was used in those days, a group of terrorists or subversives or whatever you were supposed to call them.  Was that what you were supposed to infiltrate?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now what other information did you have about the group?  How big was it?

JIMMY MBANE: There were four people.

MR BOOYENS: Was that information that you went in with - that there were four of them?

JIMMY MBANE: That's the information that I had.

MR BOOYENS: Where did that information emanate from?

JIMMY MBANE: I got that information in Koeberg.

MR BOOYENS: From who?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Liebenberg who was giving us instructions because he is originally from Cape Town, and Bellingan was also there.

MR BOOYENS: So Mr Liebenberg said to you there's a group of four people who have been trained, who are destabilising the situation.  You must infiltrate that group and find out what you can about them.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: That was the sum total of your instructions?

JIMMY MBANE: That was the instructions.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have names?

JIMMY MBANE: They had nicknames, I can't remember their names.  Others were called Mandela, their photos were shown to us.

MR BOOYENS: Were they MK names...or if you say nicknames.

JIMMY MBANE: Maybe it was their pseudonyms.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you shown photos of all four of these people?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, each and every photo had a name behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this by Captain Liebenberg?  He had photos of these people and he knew their names.

JIMMY MBANE: We were given photos and we were instructed to identify them.  These photos had their names at the back.  Liebenberg gave us those photos.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that Captain Liebenberg?

JIMMY MBANE: He was still a Lieutenant at the time.

MR BOOYENS: And did he give you addresses as well?

JIMMY MBANE: He just gave us the name of the place where they were and he told us what to do.

MR BOOYENS: Well, perhaps we can just get more clarity than just a place.  Is that a place for example in a section, or they were gathering at a certain shop or at a certain house.  What do you mean with the word place?

JIMMY MBANE: They said to us that we must go and ask the chief in that area, because we must first consult the chief and ask permission.  The chief would take us to those people.

MR BOOYENS: That's now Chief Nyangeni?

JIMMY MBANE: That's so.

MR BOOYENS: So, you went to the Chief?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I went to him.

MR BOOYENS: And you introduced yourself as a returned exile?

JIMMY MBANE: That's so.

MR BOOYENS: And you said to the Chief that you had to make contact with these four people?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Giving their names?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And how was contact then established?

JIMMY MBANE: He took us to another house where he said we would sleep there and the following day these people came and that's where we introduced ourselves to them.

MR BOOYENS: All four of them came?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, your primary task was to obtain information about these people, right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you started establishing as much about them as you could, as soon as possible?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, but it took me some time to exactly know what kind of people they were.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, no I accept that.
	You found out pretty quickly that they were completely untrained.

JIMMY MBANE: I said it took me some time to know that they were untrained.  I might be two or three days or so.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, well that's in the intelligence gathering community, that's not a long time. Two or three days and you knew these people were completely untrained, right?  So, these people certainly didn't pose a threat?  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: And in fact, it appeared that the information about these four men was wrong.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Which people are you referring to?  Who was saying these things about them?

MR BOOYENS: Well, you told us that Liebenberg gave you information that they were trained, they were posing a threat, they were destabilising the situation and so on and you established within three or four days that that information was wrong.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: So you were really dealing with four completely innocent people?  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Untrained, not dangerous, what were they really?  If anything, were they just ordinary youths from the township, you could have picked any four.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you could have picked any four youths from that township and they would have been the same as these four men.  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.  That's what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: About what age were they?  You've been referring to them as youths...how old were they?

JIMMY MBANE: At that time they might be in the age group of 18 or 20 - in their late teens.