Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: Today is Monday 14th June 1999.  This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee sitting at East London.  The panel is chaired by myself, Denzil Potgieter.  I am assisted by Adv Bosman and Dr Tsotsi.  The matter which is on the roll for today is the amnesty application of N R Nkwenkwe and others, in fact 16 others and the amnesty reference of the first applicant Mr Nkwenkwe is AM3563/96.  Mr Mapoma, just for our information, how are we proceeding with these matters?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Firstly Chair, for the record my name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.  Mr Chairman, the applicant's legal representative is going to call the witnesses, not in the order necessarily in the bundle here.  He will decide which applicant to call first and it will be up to him really.  Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Obose do you want to put yourself on record?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I appear for the applicant in this matter.  My name is Obose, initial K.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Obose.  For the victims, for the interested parties.

MR NOMPOZOLO: My name is L B Nompozolo.  I appear for 8 of the victims.  Their names are Makwethu, Masimini, Gqibithole, Mondo, Ogqoyi, Mbi, Gqoyi, Sawuti and Adoni.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  We will obtain a list of those interested parties from you in due course, we haven't noted it physically but it is noted on the record.  Thank you.

MS COLLETT: My name is Sally Collett and I'm representing Commissioner Nqoya.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Adv Collett.  Mr Obose do you want to proceed with the first applicant?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chairman I have Mr Mfene.  His application appears on the paginated bundle from
pages 23 to 29.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is Mr Mfene available?

MR OBOSE: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: (sworn states)

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Mfene, thank you very much, you may be seated.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mfene just state for the record what work you do and what's your rank and when you started doing the kind of work that you're doing.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I am a police on the detective unit.  I started on the 20th August 1983 in this unit.

MR OBOSE: How long have you been a policeman?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: 29th May 1981.

MR OBOSE: Now at the time Brig Gqozo was in charge when you took over.  Were you already a policeman?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: During the time in 1994, March, February, those months, where were you stationed?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I was stationed in Tamaga police station.

MR OBOSE: Also in the CID unit?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Now could you just state briefly as to what was the political mood at the time, March/April 1994 in Ciskei?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: At the time the political situation was very bad because there was no understanding between Brig Gqozo, our leaders or our superiors as the police, there was not co-operation between them and Brig Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: Yes.  Are there instances in particular that you can recount to the Commission?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I can make examples by saying that first of all there was no co-operation because when we wanted to meet with our superiors when we had grievances, we couldn't meet with them because we would be scared off and we would be told that we would meet him and we knew that when you meet him you will be dismissed from work.

MR OBOSE: At that stage the whole of South Africa was preparing for elections, isn't that correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: And was Brig Gqozo also making Ciskei to be prepared for that or was he, did he seem not to be of that opinion?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He was not prepared for that.  He was not even prepared to deal with people who were interested in that.

MR OBOSE: Now as policemen, had you been maybe informed as to whether you had to prepare for voting etc as would be the case?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, we were not told.

MR OBOSE: And how was the mood, as you could detect, amongst the police officials with regard to this situation?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We didn't know what was happening or what Brig Gqozo and the superiors were doing.  There was nothing which showed that the vote or the elections would be free in Ciskei.

MR OBOSE: Now is it correct that Brig Gqozo also had a certain party that he was having?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do we have a difficulty with the translation or what?

INTERPRETER: It's a technical problem, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on a minute.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.  Can you hear me?  Thanks.  Is it correct that Brig Gqozo was having a certain party at the time?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.  He was having the soldiers.

MR OBOSE: Now, was there or was there no particular conflict at the time between political parties?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes there was conflict because it was after the Bisho massacre in 1990.  The political organisations, they were in conflict with Brig Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: And the mood ground towards Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: People at the time, some of them were scared of him, so they were loyal to him.

MR OBOSE: Now on the - now the policemen, how were the policemen?  Were they unanimous supporting him or were they divided?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: They were divided.  He was not supported by  majority of police.  When I am referring to the majority, I'm referring to those with the lower ranks.

MR OBOSE: So the non-commissioned policemen generally were not supportive of Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.

MR OBOSE: Now in April 1996, this was now the month before the general election which was in May, was there any kind of activism that you could detect amongst the non-commissioned officers with regard to the role of Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The police were not satisfied at all about Brig Gqozo and that also affected the superiors because there was conflict between the police with lower ranks and the superiors.

MR OBOSE: And the commissioned officers, were they generally seen as being pro Brig Gqozo or at least scared of Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Some of them supported him.  Some of them supported him because they were afraid.  Some of them supported him because they were told to do so by others.

MR OBOSE: Now there was some feeling at the time amongst civil servants, I wouldn't know whether this was shared by the police, that pension monies had to be paid out to the civil servants etc.  Were the police of this opinion?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, the police had those opinions because what would happen is that each and every department would be informed what was going to happen about their money when the present government would take over.  It was only the police who were not aware or who didn't know what was going on because there was nobody who was informing the police about what was going on, or what was going to happen.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that the civil servants in Ciskei at the time also took the department concerned to court with regard to the question of pensions in the Bisho High Court?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Were the police part of these applicants?  Were they applicants or the police didn't take part in that application to court?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The police didn't take part in that because they didn't have somebody who would represent them from their superiors and that happened even though that was the case, the police did join it but it was not properly done amongst the police.

MR OBOSE: So in other words the picture, would I be correct to say the picture was that the police didn't know exactly which way they were going because there was no feedback that they were getting from the senior officers or anyone in government responsible for the police?