Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would submit with respect, that I am allowed to ask the question.  The witness, the applicant is from his side, the same time entitled to say I am not prepared to make a disclosure about any other events.

CHAIRPERSON: I ask that question also bearing in mind that we are busy with certain incidents and to allow carte blanche on the man's life history, be it criminal or otherwise, is opening literally the flood gates.  Technically maybe, you are correct and I would have to give him certain warnings in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act, but I am weary about opening up the flood gates, because we are busy with certain incidents for which he is making application for amnesty.
	Mr Gushu, you have been asked as to whether you would be prepared to disclose or comment on matters which may be criminal and not the subject matter of your application and in which you may have been involved at some other time.
	You are not compelled to answer such questions.  You are entitled to refuse to answer questions on those issues.  You are also entitled to indicate that you are not prepared to discuss those.  Do you understand?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I understand you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are not too certain about your rights in that respect, if such questions are forthcoming, stop and you can ask me about your rights.  Do you understand that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I understand.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I do represent Mr Gushu here and I would like to also explain it at length to him, not at length but to explain the consequences and be satisfied within my own mind, that he understands the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I will protect his interest, don't you worry about that.  Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gushu, you make application for two incidents of robbery which you committed during the period 1991 to 1992, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have made applications for amnesty for killing, attempted murders that I have been charged with.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, the question is you explained at length why it was necessary to commit armed robberies to enable you in the furtherance of the aims of the ANC, to arm the SDU's, to obtain money and arms for the SDU's.  That was the reason for your committing certain robberies.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, where is the second one?  Maybe our papers aren't full.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I am now looking at the indication we received from the Evidence Leader, how the witness or the applicants were to be called, and as far as I can remember, the matter of David de Bruyn and Wynand Fourie, the two security guards, were also mentioned as a robbery.
	And then obviously the one with regard to - the Piet Retief matter of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Msibi, yes.  But I am asking the question, I don't want to waste time.  For how many robberies are you making application at this hearing?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, it could speed up if Mr Hattingh can just ask his - we are all aware that he has now said that Mr Gushu is asking amnesty in respect of if he can say incidents, the incident at Piet Retief and the incident at the Breyten Mine where Mr Du Bruyn was killed and wounded.
	Then it would, because we are aware that there are applications pending in respect of other matters, so I mean this is too general.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask your question Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, for how many robberies are you making application at this hearing?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't remember that I have asked amnesty for having robbed.  I have asked for amnesty for having killed and having attempted to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in respect of robberies, can you tell us where those robberies would have occurred?  The ones that you are applying for?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson, I don't know if you understood me well.  This robbery that they speak of, that was written by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, where you attack someone and you take their belongings violently, that is robbery.  Do you understand?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Oh, I did not understand that, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, do you understand now?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: All right, I understand now because you have explained to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are regarded as crimes.  Do you understand that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As you are explaining to me, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: In these proceedings, it seems in your application that you are making application for amnesty in respect of those crimes.
	All the Advocate wants to know is how many of those robberies you referred to.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As you are explaining to me Mr Chairperson, according to the National Party, according to the National Party's law, for me that was not robbery.
	This is why I am getting confused.  I was doing what the Boers were doing to us as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, I am not going to get into an argument about you because of what you or I regard as crimes and not and who determined what was crimes.
	The fact of the matter is that you made application for amnesty, and all we want to know is in respect of the robberies that I described to you, how many robberies do you apply for amnesty for?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Two Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which, where did they occur?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (Indistinct) and the Alfius Msibi case.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  You've got your answer.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we can consider the rest after lunch.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (s.u.o)

MR HATTINGH: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gushu, approximately when did you come to Ermelo for the first time?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Even though I do not remember exactly, but it was 1990 around September.

MR HATTINGH: And you were arrested towards July 1992, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: And during the period that you remained in this area, approximately a year and a half, you were involved with let's call it the work on behalf of the ANC in this community?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: You already testified and confirmed that you are making application for two armed robberies.  Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you also said that the specific purpose of the armed robberies, was not for your own personal gain but only for the purpose of obtaining money and to arm the SDU's.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now the next question I am going to ask and you are entitled to seek assistance whether to answer or not, but I would like to hear you comment to the following statement.  I do find it strange that during this extended period in which you were involved with the SDU's, it was only necessary on two occasions to commit armed robberies to arm them.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I think it is very clear that for the purposes of this sitting, we are dealing with two armed robberies.  We are not talking about everything over a period, because that has arisen before.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the purpose of the question Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would submit that in the end when we address this meeting on the applications and our opposing thereof, and particularly where armed robberies are concerned, we will also deal with the intention with which those armed robberies were committed.  In the end I will say and submit to this Committee that it just does not tally that in such an extended period, the purpose for the armed robberies based on only two armed robberies over a period of one and a half years, would have been for the arming of the SDU's, and that in fact the armed robberies were committed for personal gain and malice.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting there should have been more armed robberies?