Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MALAN: Mr Mazete, may I just ask you, you say the arms that were used when brought back to you stayed with you for about a month, is that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it ever used for any other project, other attack during that month?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: Did nobody come to ask the weapons of you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: So to the best of your knowledge after this incident those who attacked the supermarket as part of the liberation struggle did not carry out any other action for at least a month and for as long as the arms were with Mr Mohape?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't remember well, but I don't think they were used.

MR MALAN: Well you would certainly remember whether they were used while in your possession?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: They were not used at all for another operation whilst they were with me.

MR MALAN: That's between the attack of the supermarket and your giving it to Mr Paulos Mohape?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one matter I'm a little confused about.  Do you remember during the course of your evidence your counsel asked you about evidence that
R9 000 was left with you and you replied: "I made that statement"?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you make that statement?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To the Chief Magistrate of Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: You made a statement to the Chief Magistrate of Welkom?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In which you said that you had been given R9 000?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I told him so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also tell him you had been given R50 after the money was counted?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Because I was forced to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Even before I made this statement the police threatened me that I should tell the Magistrate that I was tortured.  So things like that I would not say if I was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you said even before you made this statement: "I was threatened by the police that I should tell the Magistrate I was tortured", is that what you said?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean that you were threatened by the police if you told the Magistrate you were tortured?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taken to the Magistrate to make a statement to him?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he ask you if you were making it freely and voluntarily?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was myself who gave that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this, do you know?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was on the 27th of October if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he record the statement?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he write it down, record it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you asked to sign it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean you were taken to the Chief Magistrate to make a statement, you can't say if he wrote it down and you weren't asked to sign it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, they took me to the Magistrate.  It is true that I was taken to the Magistrate, that is the police.  Where I remember that he said to me to sign is where he made mistakes what I was telling him about.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say he made you(?) to sign it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this statement referred to at your trial?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is your trial in the Supreme Court?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

ADV SIGODI: Can I just clarify something?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV SIGODI: The contents of the statement, what you told the Magistrate, was it something that had happened, was it something that you knew or what?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, it was the truth.

ADV SIGODI: So the aspect about the R9 000 and the R50, was that the truth?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, it was not truth.

ADV SIGODI: Then I don't understand because you have just told us that what you told the Magistrate was the truth, how do you explain the discrepancy?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To make an example, as I was able to help those people who took part in that operation, I was able to hide their guns, those are the kinds of elements I put in the statement.

ADV SIGODI: ...[inaudible] R50?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I said that because I've already told the police.  I knew that it would give me a problem if I don't include that in my statement whilst I did tell the police about the R9 000 and the R50.  That is why I included that in that statement.

ADV SIGODI: And so when you told the police about the R9 000 was it the truth?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, it was not the truth.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you tell them that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I wanted them to release me because maybe I would be killed because of that so I wanted to satisfy them.

ADV SIGODI: Did they tell you to tell the Magistrate about the R9 000 or did you tell them about the R9 000 because you wanted to get them off your back?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I told them about the R9 000 because I wanted them to leave me alone.  So to the Magistrate I saw that it was risky that I should leave that element in the statement I did before the Magistrate because those are the people who would handle the docket and they would ask my why I didn't tell the Magistrate about the R9 000 whilst I did tell them about the R9 000.  So I was protecting myself.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, on what basis did you believe that if you would tell the police a lie that  you received R9 000 plus R50, that they would suddenly leave you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Because I heard from the news the following day that they talked about the money that was involved there and I thought that by so saying I will make them satisfied about the investigations they were doing in this regard.

MR MALAN: Did they ask you where the R9 000 was?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, they did not.

MR MALAN: You earlier said when you were asked: "How did you learn of the attack"?, you said: "By rumour and by the police in the streets and the township", now you tell us you also heard it on the news.  Where did you hear it on the news?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: At home we have a radio, so we listened to the news on a daily basis and so I listened to the radio when they broadcast the news.  So I learnt that from the radio, and then about the disappearance of the money.

MR MALAN: What did you hear on the news?  What did they say about the money on the news?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: They said a certain amount of money disappeared.

MR MALAN: Did they say how much?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't remember as to whether they said the amount but they said there is the disappearance of money.

MR MALAN: So why did you choose R9 000 as a figure?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It just came from my head so that they should be satisfied.

MR MALAN: And this was four months after the incident, after your arrest?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: By then, when you were arrested and before you made this statement to the police, did you have any contact with your then co-accused?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: So when the police took you in you didn't know whether any of your co-accused had been apprehended?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I knew because we used to go to Low Court whilst the first accused was prosecuted.

MR MALAN: Did you speak to him then?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I did not know him.

MR MALAN: What do you mean you did not know him?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was for the first time I saw him.

MR MALAN: Who is the first accused that you're talking about?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Stanley Tshoane.