Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR LAX: So how could he make a mistake interpreting what you said?

MR MPONGOSI: Sometimes it does happen that you tell one person, a person in this fashion and when he interprets it he puts it in another way, different way.  That's a common mistake, it happens also to me.  Sometimes I will listen to a person thinking that I understand them to be saying what I think.

MR LAX: Well this statement says there was war against the IFP.  And the ANC were putting up posters everywhere even on IFP shacks.  This led to arguments.  Is that true or isn't it true?  Is that what you said or didn't you say that at all?

MR MPONGOSI: I did make mention of the fact of the posters, with regards to the posters, but the problem was when now they brought those posters and pasted them on our shacks, now that created a problem, pasting those posters on our shacks, the IFP shacks that is.

MR LAX: Was there a war at that stage that the posters were put up?

MR MPONGOSI: When these posters were brought up the IFP youth followed after and removing these posters.  Now that brought some arguments that led to the fight.  That's what I said, or I'd written.

MR LAX: What you meant to say.

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR LAX: But you're aware that the ...(indistinct) posters was resolved by discussion between Sithole and the ANC leaders.

MR MPONGOSI: I was far away.  I saw him together with some youth or some boys, that's Sithole.  I did not know whether they were arguing, and over what if they were.  But one could tell that there is some argument taking place there.  I don't know whether they resolved the problem or not, but I could see that some argument had ensued as a result of those posters.

MR LAX: Who announced that the IFP youth brigade and the ANC youth league were in conflict?  Who announced that?

MR MPONGOSI: It was not announced, but it was my opinion that these two, these people were fighting or were arguing.

MR LAX: It wasn't actually announced, you just understood that there was conflict?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes, because I could see that they did not like what was happening.

MR LAX: Now you don't say anything in this statement about what you did about, what steps you took, all you say is that you apply for amnesty because you're a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: That also applies to your application form.  You don't mention that you fired shots at the other group, that you personally may have killed or injured somebody.

MR LAX: Wasn't the purpose of this affidavit to explain what you had done, to tell the truth, as you said.

MR MPONGOSI: Yes that was the purpose of the affidavit, to tell the truth or to expose all the truth, but when I was doing this affidavit I had not fully or well, been well informed about his amnesty procedure, as to who to go about filling the application forms for the amnesty.  That confused us a great deal and that brought some disturbance to me as well.  But then I told myself that when this goes through I will therefore be afforded an opportunity to explain word for word.

MR LAX: But you see your colleagues said that when Msizi came you were all together, he explained to you the process, he explained to you what was needed to be said, and then you filled out the forms.  Didn't he do that?

MR MPONGOSI: We were with Msizi and we did that, but now he did not explain it well.

MR LAX: Well if you weren't sure why didn't you ask him some more questions?

MR MPONGOSI: we did not know how to go about filling this application form we, all what we were trying to do was to be able to get this application form carried and forwarded to the Commission.  As to the other things, I told myself that I'll furnish them in front of the Commission.

MR LAX: One last aspect.  You - Advocate Sigodi asked you about the collection of these monies, when were these monies collected?

MR MPONGOSI: You mean the Zevenfontein?

CHAIRPERSON: For the guns at Zevenfontein, yes.  The time that you gave the R 20.

MR MPONGOSI: You would leave either that money to Ben or Magwaza and leave and it will, the responsibility will lie entirely ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The question was when did that happen?  When, what date, what month?

MR MPONGOSI: I donated that money after December coming back from home.  That will be January.  I don't know the date or the day but I know it was in January after I returned from home.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just very briefly Mr Mpongosi, would you, would I be correct to say that you were a very staunch IFP supporter, almost to the point of being an activist?  Why I say that is because from yourself, you say that you went to the shebeen and joined issue with the owner about who he should serve, you purchased a firearm for political reasons you say, you donated money for the purchase of firearms.  Were you a very staunch active supporter?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes, I was a staunch member.

CHAIRPERSON: On the ...(indistinct) you were angry, were you?

MR MPONGOSI: No, yes, I was very angry because of what happened, because of the condition.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you got your rifle, I mean your firearm, without anybody asking you to fetch it.  You just did it on your own volition.  Is that correct?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes I went to collect the firearm out of my own volition because of the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Draht any questions arising?

MR DRAHT: No questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you sir, no questions
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpongosi, that concludes your evidence.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht?

MR DRAHT: Chairperson there's no other witnesses that I, that we would like to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for your applicants?

MR DRAHT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chairperson, I call Mr Dastile.

CHAIRPERSON: I think they'll have to get another microphone if you change.  I suppose he can sit there.  Yes.
	Please tell me your full names.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Sindisile Wilford Dastile.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath Mr Dastile?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Dastile, in December of 1993 and before this incident in 1994, were you a member of any political organisation.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Which organisation is it?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: ANC.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How long have you been a member of the ANC?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Since 1994, I'm mistaken, since 1990.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Dastile I think it is common cause that your brother died in this particular incident on the 12th of February 1994.  Is that right?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now was, did you suffer any injuries?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Where did you suffer an injury?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: On the neck.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How did that injury happen?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I was shot at.

AZHAR CACHALIA: We'll come to how you were shot at at a later stage.  Just tell me Mr Dastile very shortly, in December of 1993, before the people left on their holiday, what was, did anything take place there in the particular area where you're living in Zevenfontein in relation to the land and allocation and shacks?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Tell us what happened.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: What had happened before we left, it was to remove, or have the people who were right next to the electric wires be moved and those were right next to the river in case the river overflows there will be problems, so they had to be moved from that particular area to another spot.