Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR WILLS: : Now we've heard - I'm turning now to this incident where there were - there was a car that was attacked outside the Hlanganane Hall and do you recall that incident to have occurred some time in March 1992, and this is the incident where certain people, certain IFP people who you've called the Mznkabi were from Johannesburg, were present.   Can you tell the Committee about that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes.   Those people had been brought by Themba Khoza because there was a person who had died.   Therefore, their duty at eSikhawini was to retaliate the death of that person.  So they were going to attack around eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: : Yes.   Did Themba Khoza actually come to eSikhawini with these people, or did he just send them, to the best of your recollection?

MR HLONGWANE: : As far as I know, Themba Khoza spoke to Ngubane first and thereafter Ngubane told me that there were people who were going to arrive from Johannesburg, whom I was supposed to show all houses.   The reason I was chosen to go around the area was because I looked like them.   I used to wear their T-shirts - go to the areas where there are shebeens and I was shopping at their shops, going around Thokozeni and I was wearing an ANC T-shirt.   So I was asked to move around with these people from Johannesburg, because I knew the area well.   I was not supposed to work with them in attacking, but I was just supposed to identify targets for them.   I did this.

MR WILLS: : And who told you to do that?

MR HLONGWANE: : Mgubaye did.

MR WILLS: : Ya.   Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is that Mrs Mbuyazi?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes, it's Miss Mbuyazi.

MR WILLS: : Okay, there was a meeting that was called at Hlanganane Hall where these people were, and you all met there.   You say in your Affidavit in para 117 that you all camped there, at Hlanganane Hall that night, where Mrs Mbuyazi was in charge of all of you.  Can you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes.

MR WILLS: : Now there was an incident where the people were burned in this car.   Can you just relate to the Committee the circumstances surrounding that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: : Mgubaye was there and Mr Hlela as well, and the local leadership of eSikhawini, and there were other IFP members.  The people from Johannesburg were outside.   A person, one of the people from Johannesburg called Zhondi, said to me:  Sadam, a car has just parked outside.   On going outside, I saw the car outside and Biyela and Mrs Mbuyazi were on their stomachs.   I drew my pistol and Demandi, who was with the people from Johannesburg, said to me we should go to the car.   As we approached the car, I started firing shots and the people from Johannesburg were not very accurate in their shooting, so they were just shooting at random.  I retreated and the people from Johannesburg proceeded shooting at the car, until they eventually arrived in front of the car.   They used all their ammunition.   On arriving at the car they said ...(indistinct) and we were looking on and then they burned the car.   Thereafter they went back into the hall, and Mrs Mbuyazi was very pleased about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, how many people from Johannesburg were their there?

MR HLONGWANE: : About 6 or 5.

MR WILLS: : Mr Chairperson, it seems to me that we are only getting some of the interpretation.   Of course, I appreciate the interpretation is very difficult but particularly perhaps when Mr Hlongwane speaks quickly, but in that incident, I would estimate we got 50-60% of the interpretation, and bits that we didn't get.   I don't know how we can resolve that?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying that all of us got 50 or 60%, or is there something wrong with your particular machine?

MR WILLS: : No, no, this is a general problem yes.

CHAIRPERSON: General translation.   Perhaps Mr Hlongwane, when you are relating incidents, it was said to you yesterday if you could perhaps speak a little bit slower to give the interpreters an opportunity to give a full interpretation.   They've got a very difficult job to perform, because they've got to interpret as fast as you speak, so obviously the faster you speak, the more difficult it is for them.   So if you could just bear them in mind when you are testifying.   I don't know if you want to repeat that incident.

MR WILLS: : No thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: : I can repeat.

MR WILLS: : There are certain - Mr Hlongwane just wait for me please.    I will draw certain incidents out via examination.    Mr Hlongwane, possibly a good idea is when you are telling a story you must tell it in small bits.   Say a few sentences and then wait and let the interpreters translate, and then continue, okay.   What I want to ask about that incident is, you mention something about you seen Mrs Mbuyazi on her stomach.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: : What do you mean by that?   What made her be on her stomach and were other people on their stomachs?

MR HLONGWANE: : It was in the way in which this car arrived.   The car did not move along the road to Hlanganane as it should.  It actually left the road and shone its lights directly at the hall, and then the people at the hall thought that they were being attacked.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Mr Wills is asking the question:  What do you mean Mrs Mbuyazi was on her stomach, I mean that she took cover in the hall?

MR WILLS: : So what you are saying essentially is that the people in the hall felt that this car was coming to attack them and, as a result of that, they lay on their stomachs.   Is that right, to avoid the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's what I am saying.

MR WILLS: : Now your job there, was it also as a guard?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes it was my duty to guard.

MR WILLS: : So if somebody came out, it was also your duty to make sure that you neutralised any threat.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : I would have to die first before the people in the hall were attacked.   That is correct.

MR WILLS: : Now, you admit that you yourself fired shots and you say in your Affidavit that you used your 357 Magnum.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills.   Could I just ask a question on this?  Mr Hlongwane, did you notice whether there were any people in the car when you approached it and fired shots?

MR HLONGWANE: : No, I did not see.

CHAIRPERSON: Or at any stage, did you know whether the car had people in it, at any stage - either when it was being fired at or when it was being set alight?

MR HLONGWANE: : I only heard voices from within the car when the people was screaming inside the car.

MR WILLS: : Mr Hlongwane, just to be clear, particularly in view of Mr Stewart's comment about the translation;   as I understood your evidence, this car's lights - the car stopped in such a way that its lights were shining into the hall.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: : And, to be fair, your purpose of running out towards that car was to attack and kill anybody in that car.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: : Now if this car's lights were shining in the hall, it must have meant that the car was not a very long great distance away from the hall.  Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: : Are you in a position to estimate the distance?

MR HLONGWANE: : I think it would be a distance similar to the veranda outside.   A person inside the car was able to see the people in the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you estimate that at approximately 20 paces, 20-25 paces?   About 25 paces?