Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is correct.  We wanted our demands to be addressed by the senior police.  If I was given an opportunity to say what our demands were, the first one would be the overthrowing of Brig Gqozo because at the time the police houses burned and police were killed because Gqozo killed people in Ciskei.  That was not right to us, so we wanted to overthrow him after the Bisho massacre.  So we wanted the blessing of the police commissioner.  What is written here is right, those were our demands.

MS COLLETT: Did you see Commissioner Nqoya as being somebody who supported Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Even at the last minute before we parted with him, he went to have a meeting with Brig Gqozo and he used to have the meetings every day at 8 o'clock and that's why here they know that he was his best friend.

MS COLLETT: Then why on earth would you think that Commissioner Nqoya would assist you in overthrowing Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It is because he was wearing the same uniform as the police.  He was known as the police.  Everything that was done by the police, we wanted his name to be mentioned within the police.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that you're using Brig Gqozo's name here as a ticket to try and secure amnesty for yourself.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I might be using his name but he is no longer the leader of the Ciskei.

MS COLLETT: Is that your answer?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It is because you are saying that I'm using his name because of that aim.  I have repeated a lot of times that our aim was to remove him in his position.  Indeed he did that, he was removed in his position and the commissioner of the police united the Ciskeian police together with the South African police.

MS COLLETT: I want to know from you why was it necessary to actually remove the commissioner's daughter and wife from their house on that evening and take them to the Bisho police college?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is part of what I'm here for.  That is part of my asking for amnesty.  I'm here to ask for amnesty for such things because they were not planned.

MS COLLETT: Why was it necessary to get them there, the daughter and the wife of Commissioner Nqoya?  Why was it necessary to take them to the police college to further your objectives?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I would like to tell the Commission that there was no need for that, it was not necessary and that is why I'm here asking for forgiveness or for amnesty.

MS COLLETT: But you agree that Brig Tlela's wife and Adnoi's wife were also taken to the police college on that evening?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Everything that is like that or such things that were not part of Gqozo's removal that happened on that day, I'm here to ask for amnesty for that.

MS COLLETT: Well tell us why they happened, we'd like to know.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The reason for those things to happen, I said that everything happened fast at that day and a lot of police believe that if you go and look for a particular person in his place and then that particular person is not there, you would not believe that the one who is there does not know where the one you're looking for is, so you would take the one who is in that house and then the one was not there, the one you were looking for would come and look for those who were there.

MS COLLETT: So you were holding up civilians as ransom for the other police officials, is that what you're saying?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Can you please repeat the question?

MS COLLETT: So you were holding the civilians like the wives and the children us as ransom to try and secure the presence of the senior officers that didn't want to be part of your plan?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What I'm saying is that was a mistake.  That was done by the police that were looking for these people and I'm here asking for forgiveness or for amnesty for that even though I was not part of it, even though I did not take the people that are mentioned.

MS COLLETT: You see I want to put it to you that the whole purpose of that meeting was to do with monetary issues, to do with where you were going to get your pensions, whether you were going to be re-employed, etc, etc and had nothing to do with the overthrow of Brig Gqozo.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I don't know about that but Brig Gqozo resigned on that particular day so I don't know how his resignation, how does it go hand in hand with the grievances of the police, if you put that aside, because I am saying that he resigned because of the actions of that day.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that there was to be a general election on the 27th of April where Brig Gqozo would be ousted from power in any event.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: On the 7th of September a lot of people came and he killed a lot of people.  The fact that there was an election and he was going to lose his position, Brig Gqozo was there together with his ADM, there would be few people who would be in the region of Ciskei as compared to people from Cape Town, Johannesburg who would come to remove him in his position, so as the police, we realised that he was - we had to remove him so he left his position.  That was our aim.

MS COLLETT: Why didn't you bring Brig Gqozo to your meeting then if that was your sole aim?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He is the one who ran away.  He ran away.  We knew from the meeting what we were going to do because after he resigned he disappeared.  He was found after a few days and that was all over.  We knew that he had resigned because of the police.

MS COLLETT: Did you send for him or call for him to be at your meeting so that you could tell Brig Gqozo that you wanted him to resign?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We would be arrested by our colleagues if we did that and we had decided to do it the way we did it and it was successful.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct if I say to you that this interim administration in the form of Jurgens, Goosen and Finqa came to you before Commissioner Nqoya came to the hall that evening?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Are you saying that they were there before he arrived that evening?

MS COLLETT: I'm asking you that, yes.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That might be so.  I saw during the night that they were there.

MS COLLETT: Why didn't you raise your concerns about the resignation of Brig Gqozo with them and leave it at that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That Brig Gqozo had resigned or we wanted him to resign?

MS COLLETT: Wanted him to resign.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He had already resigned so there was no need for him to resign again because he had already resigned when they arrived, when Rev Finqa and Mr Goosen arrived.

MS COLLETT: You see Commissioner Nqoya will say the reason that that meeting was called on that day was to discuss the planning for the elections and extra monies that you would be paid for helping with the elections as policemen.  Do you agree with that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Which meeting?  The one he called us to?

MS COLLETT: Yes.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That might be possible because after that there were elections.  We told him that we were not against elections and we were not against working on that day.  We wanted to be free.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that Brig Bungusa, Col Simms and Col Oosthuizen were the persons who were briefing you about the provisions of the elections or the provisions that would be made for the elections, upcoming elections, at that meeting.  Is that correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Who are those people?

MS COLLETT: Brig Bungusa and Col Simms and Col Oosthuizen.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I deny that.  They didn't say anything to us.  There were only two inspectors who were addressing us.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you further that it was only when you people were dissatisfied with what you were being told about the elections that Nqoya was actually called to the meeting.