Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-06-01

MR GERBER: No firearms were used.  My car was parked in such a way that all four could not reach me as I opened the door, Chairperson, and I think that saved me from further  attack.  I immediately had to go back to Johannesburg for an emergency operation.   My sources later told me that men from PAC and APLA living in Pretoria had received instructions to tail me and to kill me by  setting my car on fire.  At this stage I realised that the attack was not only against Fidelity Guards but also against the rest of the country and that these attacks were increasing in intensity.  Prior statistics showed this.  Banks were constantly under fire and robberies took place on a daily basis.
	I was in constant contact with the Security Branch and  members of Murder and Robbery Unit and we exchanged information.  I  recruited more sources and informers and I also learnt of a PAC Askari in custody,  he  was serving a sentence at Diepkloof Prison,  Julius Xhosa.  He worked for Soweto Security when this unfortunate incident took place and he was sentenced to imprisonment with the option of a fine.   During this period I also learnt from Brig Daantjie  van Wyk.  He had overall command of the special units at police headquarters in Pretoria.   He approached  me and  asked me whether I could not organise a position for him at Fidelity Guards.   He was very close to retirement.  I discussed  this with my director and it was approved and Brig van Wyk took my place and I  returned to the investigation unit and I was in overall command there. 
	I discussed the Julius Xhosa incident with Brig Van Wyk  and I told him that it would be a good thing to recruit Julius Xhosa and we decided to pay his fine and to get him out of prison.  I had long discussions with Julius Xhosa and he was prepared to act as an informer within the company.  It was clear to me that  he was very afraid that his identity would be revealed.  But at that stage all our sources, all our sources which we were using, were terribly afraid, they were afraid of intimidation and in fact of being killed, of murder.  Julius Xhosa was a source of very valuable information for me and I shared this information with my colleagues at John Vorster Plein and various security branches and I was in  contact with security people throughout the country at very high level. 
	At one stage information was passed on to us that one of our big branches in Johannesburg would be robbed.  An ANC in a senior position at this branch was allegedly involved in an armed robbery of R245 000 during which people were
killed.  I decided to disconnect this person's telephone, he lived in Tembisa, and with the help of members of Murder and Robbery on the East Rand we disconnected his phone one night and we decided to install a microphone in his office so that  we could monitor all his telephone calls.  We observed this  particular branch for six months.  This was the branch which was identified as the next target for the armed robbery.  I delivered a brand new bakkie to the informer for  his use to infiltrate these people.  During this period  my  colleague, Johan van Eck, joined us in 1988.  I knew him well and his father well.  At that stage he was a  General at Headquarters.  General Van Eck was also my District Commandant at Murder and Robbery previously - he was also my rugby coach.
	With his informers as well as mine and the rest of my staff, consisting of former security policemen, our main objective was to protect the firm and to exchange information with security branches.   I was also approached at one stage by police headquarters.  I am sorry, I am confusing the issue a little bit.  (Inaudible - microphone not activated) Engelbrecht, he later became a General, to (Inaudible - translator's microphone not activated)  All the senior officers from the Murder and Robbery branches as well as Attorneys-General  from the Ciskei and the  Transkei were invited to attend the conference and we exchanged information during the three-day  conference.  I was also requested to act as the guest speaker to discuss some of the problems which we were experiencing, especially in the Ciskei and the Transkei as well as (Inaudible  - microphone not activated).  It was a very successful conference and I sponsored part of this conference.

UNKNOWN: Did you sponsor it personally or by means of the Fidelity Guards?

MR GERBER: Through the company.  During March 1981,  27th March 1981 ....(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Mr Gerber, are you perhaps referring to 1991?

MR GERBER: Yes,  I am sorry, 1991, 27th March 1991, just   past midnight I received a telephone call from the Fidelity Guards branch in Hillbrow.  I was informed of a serious armed robbery which had taken place involving about eight armed men who had entered the premises, shot some of the guards and robbed a considerable amount of money.  I immediately  left for Hillbrow and when I arrived there I noticed there was total chaos.  (Inaudible - microphone not activated)  We immediately launched  an investigation and a search.  The vehicle was spotted behind the Ponti Building, a very high block of (inaudible).
	I immediately noticed that there had to  have been a very serious shooting incident.  Inside the vehicle there were lots of AK47 shells inside the vehicle and also outside the  doors which were open.  The money,  R4 1/2   million, all the money was found in the vehicle as well as firearms.   
	I returned to the scene of the  crime and we started investigating the area.  We wanted to ascertain how access had been gained to the premises.  I found a big carrier bag amongst the vehicles.  In the bag I found green uniforms similar to the ones worn by the guards.  I found more firearms.

UNKNOWN: The bag which you found, where was it found?