Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman that is quite correct with respect to the learned member of the Committee. May I also suggest there are two elements to the questioning. I am going to draw attention only to one aspect of the record. The one is whether at the time of the inquest Mr Khumalo said in his evidence that in King George Street while he had the AK47 whether or not he saw people with firearms at that stage at page 3950 the following appears
"I noticed on person shooting and aiming at the parapet and I could see another person I think he had an Uzzi firearm with him also firing. I was obscured by the pillar so I could not be exact as to what the man was having, the kind of firearm that he was having."
I will take it no further than that Mr Chairman.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman that still begs the question the passages I read out is specifically to the effect that this witness testified that when he was ordered to fire in his sector of fire there was no person with a firearm and that he shot at persons who has assegais and kierrie, etc. Today in his evidence he specifically testified that now in his sector of fire is a man with a pistol and he directs his fire at that person. It is two totally conflicting versions My Lord and I am trying to get an explanation for that from this witness. Can you explain that Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Do you mean that this thing was written today in short?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I didn't get what you said Mr Khumalo.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: He means that this thing was written today.

MR PRETORIUS: I do not understand your answer at all. Can you please repeat it?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: You said that in the inquest I didn't say that whilst this thing is here in this book. Was it written today?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo the record of the inquest proceedings is in front of us. I read to you the specific passages in the inquest record where you replied on two separate occasions that there was no person with a pistol in your sector of fire when you fired your shots. Do you want us to go through those passages again?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't think it is necessary.

MR PRETORIUS: Do you deny that some questions prior to this you testified in this meeting today that there was a man with a pistol in your sector of fire and that you directed your shots also towards him?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I will answer that. I think the (...intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: Firstly Mr Khumalo just answer my question. Do you deny that you gave the evidence to the effect that I have just stated to you? Do you deny that? Just answer that question first.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We didn't get, Mr Khumalo.

MR LAX: Just repeat your answer? We didn't hear it unfortunately.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I said I don't know.

MR LAX: You don't know?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What is it that you don't know Mr Khumalo? I am trying to understand your response. You don't know that you gave that kind of evidence before Justice Nugent?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: In fact I can't remember that because it sometimes it is a human error. Just like him right now it had been corrected by the Chairperson. You had said that I was carrying a pistol and I have corrected it that no I didn't carry a pistol. You were trying to say that I was carrying an AK but you call it a pistol. That is a human error.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pretorius just carry on with the next line of cross-examination?

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you. Mr Khumalo I am putting it to you that it is quite clear that you fabricated this version that you just put forward in this court. And that you are not telling the truth to this Court or to this Committee.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think that is your version.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo when you stopped firing or you were given the order to stop firing was there any person of the marchers still standing up in the crowd in de Villiers Street or in the corner of King George and de Villiers Street?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Repeat your question again please?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Ja that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I didn't get his question.

CHAIRPERSON: At the stage when you were told to stop firing the marchers that were there, were any of them still standing up?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes there were some who were still standing up. There were some who were still running.

MR PRETORIUS: In which direction did they run Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: They have run, others have run northwards, other ones have run to - which means northwards towards King George. Others who have run to de Villiers.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo can you please turn to page 4061. I see you have got the record of your evidence in front of you. You can read together with me. I am going to read it in the record for you as well. I am reading now from line 10 of approximately. Let's read from line 19

MR PRETORIUS: "Now when you stopped firing Mr Khumalo where were the crowd? What are you looking for Mr Khumalo? THE WITNESS REFERS TO EXHIBIT SS AT THAT POINT I ask you were they standing, lying down, what were they doing?

WITNESS: They were lying down."

MR PRETORIUS: 		I have again put it to you, according to Mr Mangena who also stopped firing at the time that Mr Gary Kruser ordered to stop firing there was no Zulu standing at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street at that stage. They were either lying down or crouching behind a car or something like that. There was no one standing. Do you agree with that?

WITNESS: I do agree."

MR PRETORIUS: That was your reply. That Mr Khumalo is totally different to what you are now testifying again. Can you explain that Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes I can explain it. When you put your question you have put your question in such a way that on that entire vicinity you were not specific. If you had said that next to the, at that corner then I would be talking something else. If you are specific I will answer you correctly but if you generalise ...

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo the problem is that the Honourable Chairman he asked you the question and he phrased it in such a manner that you understood it perfectly. Then you gave your answer to his question and it now differs totally from what you testified during the inquest. Can you explain that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't see any difference in this. Because you have asked me were people were still standing in that vicinity. There were people who were still standing, who were running.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) given to stop firing, at that stage?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: At that stage yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There were people still running?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MR LAX: Mr Pretorius just one word of advice if you just move the mike a little bit away from you it will stop distorting. Thanks.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you. Now if that is the position then your evidence at the inquest board was totally incorrect in this aspect at least is that correct Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't think it is correct because this is not an inquest. If this was an inquest then it will be something else.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman I am not going to argue with this witness. I will address my argument later on to you but I want to put it to this witness you see Mr Khumalo the point is just this that if there was no one left standing or running or anything at the time that the order was given to stop firing it means the guards on the corner of King George and Plein Street continued firing to such an extent that at the stage they stopped there was no one standing or left standing to fire at. Do you understand that Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I understand. That is your perception again.