Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

<UNKNOWN>: ground out of his great mercy,  that's in South Africa too,  swords will be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks and that South Africans too will begin to live together in peace, in reconciliation and in a spirit of mutual regard for their common humanity.  This is what keeps our hope alive.  That is what we will continue to pray for.
MS GOBODO
 [indistinct] ask you to explain some of the references you've made in - in your presentation.  In the first part of - of your submission you mentioned that - that the church took part in endorsing some of the upper  [indistinct] laws and you've given us some attachment.  This first document - Appendix 1 - which  is dated 1955 and 1956 could you tell us a little bit about what is contained in this document, just very briefly.
DR KOORENHOF
The three Appendixes which have been attached, it's result is that members of the Presbytery have taken the agendas and their minutes of the Presbytery of Stellenbosch for the past 45 years to investigate to which degree this Presbytery was involved with the community and whether if made certain statements about the political situation.
In Appendix 1 is an attempt to indicate how so far as 1956, 1955 various standpoints were taken and what decisions were made.  Like how the church positioned itself within  this theological framework.
And Appendix 2 we refer to the Synod meeting of 1972 were certain decisions where made about the unrest situation, but where it was indicated that these decisions were made within the context of the situation at that time.  But no where the system as such was criticized.  In this regard we could not make a real contribution.
The 3rd Appendix refers to decisions made by the Presbytery in the 80's and I also attached the decision which was made in 1985 and then a clear decision was made about the unrest situation, the apartheid and also confessed various things and the Presbytery committed itself to the service of God to be open to all these things.
And in Appendix 3 we've attached two decisions from Congregations in the Presbytery .  1983 where two congregations in the Presbytery that took strong standpoints against the Act against mixed marriages and in 1987 when one specific congregation took a strong standpoint against apartheid.  
MS GOBODO
Thank you very much  [indistinct] and the - the attached to your submission.  Just one last question for Bethel and Frederick just to tell us how you have experienced the process of writing up this document.
 Firstly you as a person who's been involved in the history of the church and then finally for you as a younger member - as a younger entry - entrant - enterer ( what's the right English word) person who enters the church, yes could you tell us please, share with us your experience of writing this submission, thank you.
DR MULLER
Thank you for the privilege to be appointed as one of the old people and this is also perhaps why their asked me to join them because I've been in - I've been a member of this Presbytery of Stellenbosch since the 60's.  During those years many things happened in our country.  But then we already were part of a system - a system from which we - where we had many advantages.  
My children could go to schools in a privileged education system.  I was not aware of that - my heart was closed, not only my eyes also my heart was closed because of the system.  It was all the information we received and rather to take easy way out and that is to keep quiet.  
And this is why this was an opportunity for me Mr Chairman in which I could say that this thing which weighs heavy on my and other people's heart is we did not physically murder people.  We did not physically assault anybody.  We do not physically put anybody into prison but the Bible says that if I allow something to happen to my brother that what is an injustice then I am also part of that action and then I must also account to God.  
This was an opportunity - this is the moment of truth where I was freed.  I was freed by participating in making this statement.  I was - became part of a process where we could tell our story.
Where we got - could confess and where we could say Mr Chairman taking everything into consideration that in the end the Commission will achieve what it's name refers to - the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation and that this will take place in the name of God.  
And then there will be freedom, peace and hope for our society.  It was a privilege but it was not easy at all because you have to look deep into your own heart and you see the evil in your heart.  
MR MARAIS
 [indistinct] member of our church and as a young Christian in South Africa we ask ourselves the question  how is it possible that it could have happened in our country these terrible things which did happen.  How could it happen if there are many Christians in this country.  
As a young man it is very important for me to know that there's a future in this country and my co-operation in preparing this statement was for the purpose of to see what - to determine why and how  the church in Stellenbosch could allow that so many injustices could occur.
And we did this so that the truth could be revealed so that it could never happen again.  I have 2 small little daughters at home and I hope that they can grow up in a country and in a community were they will respect the human dignity of all the people of this land.  It was not easy to prepare this statement.  
For us as young people it is very easy to say we didn't have a part in all this, we do not want  to admit it and like some people do just leave the country because it is to painful to look at our own history.
 To be able to have a future I realized that by participating in this process I can only have a future if this is based on revealing the truth from the history.  Then I can only find my routs and then I can look into the future with hope.  So this was a very difficult rout to take but the word of God tells us that truth frees us and I have experienced this the previous few weeks.
I want to be freed so that I as a young person can live enthusiastically in this country where God had put me and that for the children which God has given me that I can create a future for them.
 We cannot deny this history, this history will keep us in prison if the truth is not revealed.  That was - it was an indescribable privilege to be part of this process and for us as young people who are interested in our future, it is very important to determine exactly what had happened in the past.  To see exactly what went wrong so that if will happen again.
MS GOBODO
 [indistinct] shall be now - pass you onto - over to the Chairperson, thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much, I believe that it would be utterly amazing if there weren't any questions that my colleagues would wont to put to you so I'm going to give them the opportunity to put some questions to you.  Piet Meiring?
PROF MEIRING
Just before I ask you any questions I would just like to say to you this afternoon, my brothers, that I am extremely thankful that I can share this moment.  I'm a member of the church which you are talking about and I would like to say to you that I identify myself with every single sentiment which you have expressed in the document which you submitted.  
Thank you very much for your document and thank you very much for your submission.  For me it is an absolutely serious matter, not just the words which you have said to the Commission that they should be important and reflect the things that should be decided upon but that it should also influence a lot of other churches and communities and religious groups.  And give them the necessary courage to do the same and I hope that what you have started here today will be but the first of a series of such submissions in our quest to find the truth and in that quest that we will hear the evidence of the other truth - of the other religious groups.
 And on the other side that it will lead to reconciliation.  That we should take reconciliation very seriously as Christians, thank you very much.
 Just two short questions, perhaps  in the address of Dr Bethel Muller.  In the center of page 3 in your evidence you said that eventually there was new insight in the Dutch Reformed Church.  You saw the era of your ways, I would like to know from you as a professor from you and your fellow lecturers.  Stellenbosch is very ridged institution.  
How did it happen that the theologians change their minds and there after I would like to ask one of the other brothers - they can decide what they want to answer - who going to answer, but it's  a very practical question.  What is your plan to put reconciliation into practice.  What is Stellenbosch's plan as far as working co-operation with the other churches is concerned, thank you very much.
DR MULLER
Honorable Chairperson, Prof Meiring what happened to change our minds is that - look it is so that the University and specifically the Theological Faculty in name and in sermon, in practice was steadfast in the truth and that Theology was there to serve the truth because it is all about God and that God stands for the truth.  You know a lot a people believed in the system, a lot of people believed in apartheid and wrote books entitled "My Credo" the meaning this is what I believe in.
And what happened was not always with vicious intent but it was all caught up,  it was blindly caught up, it - it was being hard, stone hearted.  But you know when one is start gradually scratching away at a dam that is filling up, it starts with a little  [indistinct] of water and then eventually that little crevice gets deeper and deeper until the walls of the dam break.
And I think this is what happened through the mercy of God.  I do not want to mention  any names but there were from the earliest of times people in the - in the - at the University as well as in the Presbytery and in the - in the Theological School who scratched at the - at the wall of this dam.
They were  [indistinct] away at the wall and quite often there was this deadly silence.  They were utterly rejected but constantly the spirit which so often works through the littlest of things heard and felt the scratching - that  [indistinct] away at people's conscience's which led to the braking down of these walls.
There were also other things.  You know the history of the evidence which came from Stellenbosch - their reforms there.  There were groups in the University who stood fast at the moral point and who spoke with the authorities and who - there was a group of priests who made statements and what Dr Koorenhof mentioned the decisions of church boards - church councils and these  [indistinct]  behind them served as the necessary pillar of strength and that's what brought us to the decision at the sign of - as one of my colleagues said:
The Dutch Reformed Church is like a large ship, it doesn't turn 
very easily but when it starts turning it turns
And that day we experienced a turning point.  
Chairperson it's not to say that everything is correct.  We must all still work together.  As you said in your introduction that the Dutch Reformed Church has got a very important roll in this land and in the - in - in this - in society.  That we should do it together, not necessarily as a church but as a God of the church.  We should continue to pray for the church.  That - it should become what it is meant to be so please pray for us as well.
MR MARAIS
Mr Chairman, this submission made us realize right at the beginning that it cannot be the - the end.  It was but the beginning, it is the first little step that we are taking out to the isolation of the division between the churches.  From a practical point of view I see that we have to go back to our congregations with this document and discuss it. 
 The way in which church meetings take decisions shows that not necessarily all members of the congregation know what is going to happen but we will deal with that at ministerial levels and I see much more that can happen.  
In the process in which we were preparing this submission we asked some of our older members to come and tell us how they experienced the process in Stellenbosch.  As a young man I sat and I looked at them and I realized that there are a lot of things which I do not know.  A lot of things which happened in our community which I was a younger person don't know anything about.  And I commit myself thereto to digging deeper to try and discover the truth.
And while the older people were talking I realized that not just guilt but hurt as well was in their consciences.  I thinks that there was pain in the people who had in the oppresses as in the oppressed and I think that the church is the ideal vehicle to bring communities together at a ministerial level.  Where the media is not present, where people can speak from their hearts and rid themselves of - of the burdens and free themselves.
I became aware of the fact that when you have hurt somebody else you in a way remain a prisoner of that persons pain and it is only when you - as we believe - through  the wonderful grace of God that we can have the courage to led and to forgive.  And that is the only way that healing can take place and I think that it is a wonderfully freeing process which can take place and I think that our church and our churches that is what - our calling from God.
CHAIRPERSON
Dr Koorenhof is there anything you would like to add?
Dr KOORENHOF:
No.
REV XUNDU
Thank you Mr Chairman, I feel indeed very privilege to be part of this hearing.  And be able to go through the process in which you are going through.  Special privilege that our Afrikaner brothers and sisters have taken this stand and I believe that God is annoying ...END OF TAPE 3, SIDE A... [indistinct] about - about what they did because some of them seen by omission and not by action.  Therefore I believe that this will tickle and  [indistinct] their hearts and bring them closer to a time when they confess.  
 I want to say also that when God  [indistinct] you as like He has done just now he - he places upon you radical demands  and radical impurities.  One of those such has happened to  [indistinct] , it made him want to go to the  [indistinct] to say that the grace of God is also - belongs to them.  And I believe that in a way in which he will not  [indistinct] , he'll begin to move the road of transformation.  And make resolutions of transformation together with other churches of cause but for yourselves in particular and seek the way in which together for those to come who will be on the receiving end, find a way of resolving the - some of the issues.
 Most specially for me it is a guess option when he met the Lord, he said the privilege that is - the privileges that I had I want to take over to share as an  [indistinct] .  So because one of the outward and visible signs that had gone to make it credible for us is when those who are privilege begin to take that privilege of accumulated resources to be able to build together with those who have not had those privileges.  It is my hope that he will find the niche for that in your program of transformation, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
I should be speaking in Xhosa but I - I will speak in Xhosa and I not will be speaking in Afrikaans.  I have spoken in Afrikaans sufficiently to show you that I grew up in Ventersdorp.  Don't associate me with other people from Ventersdorp.  But I - I think I - I would be sore that I'm expressing the views of very-very many people first by saying how very deeply thankful we are to God for what has happened to today.
Second say it is very deeply humbly  to be here, I think the - that is what the grace of God does  when God is present and the transcendence of God throws you onto your knees.  And you become like Izia - you're shocked by the glory of God and you're aware of your sinfulness and then you are aware that this God of glory is also the God who is there with you in the fiery furnaces - who is there with you in the pain and the shame.  For this God of glory is the God of the cross, this is the immortal one who dies.  This is the God of glory who washes the feet of disciples.  This is the one who is King but rains not from a thrown as other Kings but from the cross.
I really just want to give thanks to that God who makes us humble and He's a God who's - I think who's got a sense of humor.  I'm sure  [indistinct] God is laughing now, I mean you know, looking at us.  So what did you think, you know, what did you think this is my world.  This is my world and it will be okay, everything will be all right.  Everything will be all right  and I want to say I give thank to God for you because all of us know it is not easy to say sorry.  And certainly not to say sorry publicly.
And I want to give very considerable credit to your church because this is not the first time that your church has done this.  Rustenburg there was a bit of it - at the Rustenburg conference but I think more spectacular in a way at your last general cygnet when your moderator said we have persecuted our profits and to have seen the wonderful thing of someone who's profits being present at that session.  The Beyers Naude's and others, your church was able to do that publicly.
We hope that other churches - now I have to say about the Anglican Church  they have enrolled to confess to because you have to ask them why was the first black bishop only in 1960.  What were you doing all of these times, and our church - I mean - our church until very recently did not appoint people regardless of race.  And our church gave different titles to people according to race but I have to say and Ntebisi will remember that - our church tried but it is not done it in your way and I hope - I mean - that they will come.  
In 1992 we had one of the  extraordinary moments in the life of our church when first of all white members of our - of the cygnet said their were confessing and asking for forgiveness for their part in apartheid and then virtually everybody got up because everybody knew that - to some extent they - they had something to confess as well.  Whether they were black or white, but we have not yet had anything like what you have done and I - I said long ago - now you might think this is a backhanded complement that the Afrikaner is not subtle - now, you might - but in - the fact of the matter is true.  
For you it is actually either black or white if you will forgive the expression.  That you don't - see easily grace and I said the day the Afrikaner is converted then will be nothing to stop it and you saw it in the profits that you have rehabilitated.
But once they changed - when they're Beyers Naude who - who's father  was a founding member of the Broeder Bond and others.  Who supported this when they changes, then there was not - there were no half measures.  And I have had the privilege of meeting quite a few - Piet here and others are people of that sort and I - I know now that I mean - it's going to all right because if your church says we are taking this up then your community is going to take it up.
And our country is going to be healed, it is not easy to have done what you've done, thank you.  Thank you very much and may God bless you, bless your ring, bless your congregations and may God with His Holly Spirit  [indistinct] you so that you go forward as wounded healers.  And those are the best kind of healers, because they know from inside, thank you.