Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR BOTHA: No Mr Chairperson.  They would never reveal the name of the person, they said it was an unknown person and they stuck with their story that he returned to Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Very well, would you then continue and tell us what happened afterwards.

MR BOTHA: Taylor, myself, Wasserman and Du Preez ...

MR MALAN: Sorry, maybe I have made a wrong note, or maybe I didn't hear you correctly, Mr Botha if I heard you correctly, Mr Visser asked you if you knew who the fourth person was and you said yes?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Could you identify him for us?

MR BOTHA: His name is Naya Ngema.

MR MALAN: Give it to us again?  Can you spell it?

MR BOTHA: I will spell the first name Naya, and the surname Ngema.

MR MALAN: Ngema?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You can continue.

MR BOTHA: Thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You were busy saying it was?

MR BOTHA: Taylor, myself, Du Preez and Wasserman and the three victims, Ndlovu, Filakazi and Matjale, after we chained them together, we put them into the kombi.  The SBM limpet mines which we found in their possession, was checked by Du Preez to make sure that the detonators were functioning and we left for Phoenix railway station, or the vicinity of the Phoenix railway station.

MR VISSER: Can you just stop there for a second please.  You say it was you, Botha and Taylor, Du Preez and Wasserman who together with the three people left?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In volume 2, page 65 Taylor says in the middle of that paragraph with the words subsequently we left from the farm and Botha, Du Preez, Wasserman and other members whose identities I cannot remember, took the people out.
	What do you say about that remark from Taylor that there were other people, other members, other unidentified members that was also present together with you?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, there were no other members with us.  It was only us four.

MR VISSER: So I assume you drove there?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, we drove with the kombi to Phoenix railway station.

MR VISSER: And the three men?

MR BOTHA: They are chained or cuffed and they are in the same vehicle as us.  When we got to the scene, Colonel Taylor stayed behind with the three of them, in the vehicle.
	Me, Wasserman and Du Preez got out.  The limpet mines which were in the carried bag, were prepared.  On the farm already we had weapons, Scorpions, and we took it with us, they would have been shot with these.
	Each one was armed with a Scorpion?

MR BOTHA: Everyone, me, Du Preez and Wasserman.  Whilst Taylor stayed at the kombi, we took the three of them out of the kombi, removed the cuffs and each one of us took them by the arm or by the trousers or by the shirt, I cannot remember where, and we walked in the direction of the railway line.
	Taylor would have requested from them to identify to us the place, they identified, and they had to point it out to us.  Next to the railway line, I asked them to kneel down and to show us where they would have placed the limpet mines.  Each of us stood behind one of the people.
	I gave the sign by nodding my head and me, Du Preez and Wasserman shot the victims in the head, one single shot.  They fell, they were immediately dead.
	Afterwards Sam got the limpet mines prepared.

MR VISSER: Who is Laurie?

MR BOTHA: Wasserman.  Me and Wasserman placed the bodies in a star formation around the explosives and Du Preez prepared the explosives.  Their hands were placed next to their heads.

MR MALAN: Sorry, can I just interrupt you again.  You say you each shot them one shot in the head, and they were all dead?

MR BOTHA: Yes, they fell over.

MR MALAN: Was that the end of it?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Do you know that you say in your application that you shot them both a second time?  You shot all of them a second time?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, if I wrote it like that in my application, it must be correct.  Whilst I was talking, then maybe I contradicted myself.
	If I did shoot a second shot, then maybe I did.

MR MALAN: I am not going to argue with you, thank you.

MR BOTHA: Thank you.  We put the bodies in a star formation, around the explosives.  Their hands were placed next to their heads next to the explosives.
	After Du Preez activated the explosives, we got back into the bus and we left.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, both in the case of Pumeso Nxiweni as well as in the case of the last three people that we refer to as the kwaMashu 3, did you according to your application report to Steyn about what had happened?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask you, it sounds very complicated to me to in the middle of the night, take people out and to kill them there.  To take their cuffs off, to make them kneel, to question them and then to shoot them.
	Are you dead sure about this information, were they not maybe shot on the farm and then transported there, wasn't that easier?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR MALAN: Why didn't you do it that way around?

MR BOTHA: We did it this way because it was the easiest way to go about it.  Taking them to the scene of the crime, it is not a lot of trouble.  If one of them escaped, we could have killed him there, and you would still have the evidence that this happened at the target.
	The story you wanted to created after the incident by making it seem as if it was a false flag operation, this fitted in with that.  If you shot them on the farm, then you had the big trouble of blood, the people had to be transported to a specific point where they had to be off loaded and then you need a lot of people, more than one person, and then it becomes a messy business.

MR VISSER: I just want to return to an aspect that you spoke about yesterday and it is just a simple question, and it is a short one Mr Botha.
	We know that it was the policy and the strategy of amongst others the ANC/SACP alliance to take over the political power in the country with violence.  Was that also your impression?

MR BOTHA: Yes indeed.

MR VISSER: What was the strategy of the South African government in this instance?

MR BOTHA: The South African government wanted to prevent at all costs that the SACP/ANC alliance execute its strategy.

MR VISSER: In effect, what did it come down to, what was expected of you?

MR BOTHA: That we would stop terrorism and we had to get rid of the problem completely.
	Consequently, except for the instructions on the level of the command structure in Natal, at our daily conferences we were always made aware of what we had to do in terms of solve the problem.  There was also the request from the political platform that wherever you had to fight the struggle against terrorism, it had to be stopped.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further evidence from this witness, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR MALAN: Just one question from my side please.  I do not think anyone of us doubt about the fact that there was a lot of pressure on the Police Force, from all sources and in a very complex fashion, but what I do find strange or what I find hard to understand and I just want to know why the strategy worked like this in your unit, why would you just go and pick out individuals and also in such a difficult manner if you understood that you could do better by eliminating complete units?

MR BOTHA: No, we couldn't just everyone you knew and who operated within a unit, eliminate.  If one can use the word priority, this unit was at that stage the unit under Nxiweni who were responsible for the terror here in Durban.
	In order to stop that, I had no other option, than to eliminate them and to so stop the whole process.