Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-28

COMMISSIONER: When things were going bad there, and you told them that you are the leader of this group, and you wanted to see the other leader of the soldiers, do you remember his name?

WITNESS:   It was Botha.  He said he was Botha.

COMMISSIONER: Do you know his whereabouts or where he stays?

WITNESS:  They told me he is Botha, but I don't know his whereabouts.  And he also said he was Botha.  Even though I did not write somewhere, but I still have it in my mind that he was Botha.

COMMISSIONER: You have said that you had to fight tooth and nail because the newspapers had wrong information.  Which newspapers were those?

WITNESS:   No, they were talking about the fact that unknown people attacked, and attacked people who were unknown.  You see, The Mercury newspaper said there was just havoc.  Suddenly there was conflict.  They did not explain.  They could not explain, yet that was not true.

COMMISSIONER: In other words you say they were lying?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: You say when your house was burned you saw a kombi.  Did you see that kombi before?

WITNESS:   No.

COMMISSIONER: Was it the first time you saw that kombi?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was the first time, and it was the very first day we saw.

COMMISSIONER: Did you see its registration?

WITNESS:   No, we did not see.  We could not even take the registration numbers because of the situation we were in.  We were in such a state we could not even take any registration, or even think of taking registration numbers.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Gasa, from what you have said I find out that you have been severely harassed and tortured, and your wife and your mother-in-law also died as a result of this.  I just want to follow shortly about your kids, your children.  Talk about your children.  Tell us about the children in this whole experience.

WITNESS:   The most unfortunate thing that transpired is that after that my first daughter left home.  Usually this is done by youth saying, "I am going to hide."  Yes, my daughter left home.

COMMISSIONER: What was her name?

WITNESS:   Holiness.  Holiness Gasa.  She left home so that what she experienced and what she witnessed she may not witness it again.  She went to Red Hill.  It was not long.  We just heard from radio that there was a girl who was killed and is with the police at Chatsworth who was stabbed to death.  "We did not know - we could not identify this girl, and we cannot even tell where she came from.  At times some said it's Holiness Gasa, but some said it's Thembi.  Now we are pleading, we are announcing to the parents to come and identify this corpse."  Three days went past whilst we were still talking and trying to get our heads together as a family discussing this, and we decided finally let's go to Chatsworth Police Station.  And we found out she had seven holes, and we buried her.  She was trying to escape the situation.  We don't know how far she escaped, how far she ran, how far she went with all this that she was trying to do, and where she was we had no relatives.  And some of my children were not affected, this did not impact so much on them.  By the way, two of them I took them to Zambia at the ANC headquarters, and they joined the soldiers, Umkhonto we Sizwe.  My children were part of MK.  I in person I took them to Zambia to join the MK.  You know, even if I was young I was going to go myself and join the MK, and come back as a soldier.  Yes, they are back now.  They are MK members.  They came back.  They came back.

COMMISSIONER: Finally I would like to say - I would like to ask you the question I asked the previous victim - witness.  I know you've already said that you have anchor.  You know you have this hope, and your hope is God, and I am so glad to hear that, but it seems to me that you have been so harassed, you know, and as I am looking at you you look so brave and you look so strong.  I don't know whether you do think at times - you know, I am trying to quote you.  You said you'll never forget what you've gone through, and the fact that you've lost your wife.  You said you will even die you'll never - you will never forget this, so this tells me - this goes on to tell me that you have been so severely harassed.  I wonder if you will appreciate any help, you know, like psychologists who can help you, because you have this trauma.  Psychologists could help you through and deal with this trauma you've suffered.  You know, your coming up here to share your story with us, you've ventilated, you've opened up, you've said everything that has been within you, and this - truly to tell you this is a healing in itself.  You are never the Gasa you used to be before you came here today.  Now I wonder if you could appreciate if we could get you some psychologist to help you because you've suffered this ordeal.

WITNESS:   I can appreciate so much.  Maybe I should say this.  I don't trust Truth Commission that much.  You know, I should say this.  I am not shy to say this.  But still I shall say this.  What you have said, my pastor, maybe I should say yes, this is the very first step that I envisage that my coming to the Truth Commission has helped me, because I do believe that I have been so harassed and I have gone through this traumatic experience, so that I will appreciate to see the psychologist.  You know, I want to concentrate on what has brought me here.

COMMISSIONER: Finally this Truth Commission that you have come here - you have already said that you don't trust this Truth Commission, but what would you wish for this Truth Commission to do for you even though you don't trust this Truth Commission?  What would you like to request from the Truth Commission?  What should the Truth Commission do?