Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

CHAIRPERSON: At your trial, your lawyers submitted that, on the evidence in court that had been led before the Court, it was clear that the attack on Boipatong had been planned, well planned, and was executed with what was described as military precision.   Do you understand what your lawyers said on your behalf at the criminal trial?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not agree with what the lawyers said, because I was sentenced despite their claims.

CHAIRPERSON: Given the submission made on your behalf by your legal representative at court, which was based on the evidence in court, your evidence before this Committee that you were simply called onto the stadium without any prior knowledge and told to go and attack Boipatong is simply not true, is that what you... (intervention).

MR BERGER: Yes, that is what I wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your comment on that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I can say is that I was called into the stadium on that day and told about it.   I cannot comment on what the lawyers said, because I don't know about it.

MR BERGER: You've told the Committee that you've not been trained, well let me not misrepresent to you, you have not had military training, you've just been to the shooting range?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You cannot explain how it is that the attack appeared to have been carried out with military precision, you just say, "We went along with no planning and killed people at random", am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: Did you, you went along willingly, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, how many more questions do you have of this witness?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have approximately eight or nine pages of questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, maybe we should adjourn at this stage.  We'll return at quarter past two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MR BRINK: ...requested by one of the interpreters to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that when Mr Lax asks questions, having to share a microphone with you, Mr Chairman, his questions aren't easily audible, and if possible, when Mr Lax does want to ask a question, if he could take your microphone and put it in front of him?

CHAIRPERSON: I see, Mr Berger, that you have just, you've handed us your heads of argument on the (indistinct).   Yes, thank you very much.

MR BERGER: Yes, I've also furnished Mr Brink with a copy, because I thought he might be interested in the argument.

MR BRINK: Yes, indeed, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, so everyone has a copy of this.  We can go on.

MR BERGER: No, not the counsel for the SADF nor counsel for Mr Mthembu, I didn't think that they were interested, but if they are interested in this argument, we can... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently you have a passing interest in the matter?

MS PRETORIUS: There is no urgency about it, Mr Berger.

CHAIRPERSON: They said they have a passing interest in the matter.

MR BERGER: Well it doesn't affect any of their clients, that's the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, excepting of course if they want to be drawn into the argument, which is their privilege.   Yes, very well, Mr Mthembu, might I remind you that you're still under oath.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I just would like to report, I did speak to the State advocate, unfortunately they do not have the map at hand, he'll try and get hold of it, but he doesn't think he'll be successful, but he will let me know as soon as he can get it.

CHAIRPERSON: It would have been handed in as an exhibit though, would it not?

MS PRETORIUS: Apparently it was on loan from the South African Defence Force, but he will see what he can do about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well your colleagues are just behind you, you can talk to them.

MS PRETORIUS: I can, but they are helpful in that regard, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.   And the aerial photographs?

MS PRETORIUS: The same.

CHAIRPERSON: The same?

MS PRETORIUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We have the South African Defence Force here, so they will provide those particulars.   Yes, very well.   Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: (still under oath)

MR BERGER CONTINUES: Mr Mthembu, I'm going to try and move as fast as possible, so please I'm asking you, listen to my questions and answer just my questions, if you would.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me emphasise that, Mr Mthembu, that when the question is put to you, if you can answer the question with a yes or no, please do so, but more importantly, if you do not understand the questions, you've got to say so, so that the question can be repeated to you.   Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, what political objective did you think you would achieve by killing all the residents of Boipatong as you planned to do?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explained before, I did not have the opportunity to go to school, but I think that had I had the chance to go to school, I would have tried to come up with a solution so that the conflict between the two organisations is addressed, bring the leadership of the two organisations so we can resolve the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me explain the question to you, in your application for amnesty, you've stated that the attack on Boipatong was politically motivated, do you understand that, in other words it was associated with politics, do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Berger wants to know is, he's directing this question to you specifically, what political objective did you hope to achieve by killing all the residents of Boipatong?   Do you understand the question now?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand, but then I don't have an answer to that.

MR MALINDI: I'm sorry, Mr Chairperson, maybe if I can ask this question, Mr Mthembu has been repeating, saying he's not educated, if I may ask him what standard did he pass at school?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Standard nine.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you've told the Committee that there were no meetings prior to the one on the 17th of June at which the attack was discussed.   Isn't it correct that a week or two before the attack, the possibility of an attack on Boipatong was discussed at the Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I don't know that.

MR BERGER: You did not hear of any such meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No sir.

MR BERGER: On the Sunday before the attack, there was a meeting of all the men of Kwamadala Hostel in the stadium, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know whether I was present or not on that Sunday.

MR BERGER: Let me try and refresh your memory, Mr Themba Khosa addressed that meeting, do you remember it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I don't remember.

MR BERGER: And a certain Mr Dlamini also addressed that meeting.   This Mr Dlamini came from KwaZulu Natal.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know whether he was present at the meeting or not, I wouldn't say, because I may not have been present on that day.

MR BERGER: This Mr Dlamini was accompanied by a bodyguard called Gabelo, and this Mr Dlamini was sent to Kwamadala by a minister who lived in Durban.   Does any of this ring a bell?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: Do you remember the meeting now?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't remember the meeting.   I am answering to the question about Mr Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Well no, what he's put to you is that, firstly, Mr Dlamini was accompanied by a bodyguard by the name of Gabela or Gabelo.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Gabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   In addition, Mr Dlamini had been sent to Kwamadala Hostel by a minister who lived in Durban.   Do you know anything about that?