Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 4.2 in particular.  I will read it for you for your convenience.  You say
"Mr Molope was identified as one of the persons who were willingly used by the apartheid regime"
Let us stop there.  Did you ascertain how he was used and what he did to further the apartheid regime?

JABU OBET MASINA: The mere fact that he could shoot people who were marching against the apartheid regime showed that he was on the white man's side.  And that clearly showed me that he is the enemy of the people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying the eleven people who were killed at the massacre were fighting for liberation?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Somewhere in your papers it is mentioned that they were against the rent hikes.

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.  Marching against rent hikes against the government, it just showed that they are just fighting for their own rights.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you speak of liberation you speak of political liberation, the political freedom and not the financial convenience?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We don't really need to get into the intricacies of the politics of the struggle.  I think it can be accepted Mr Mpshe, that a lot of the opposition against the previous government and regime was not only confined to strictly political matters but did show itself through strikes and mass actions and resistances.  You don't need to spend too much time on this.  You can ask the question, but it's more a matter of argument really.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will abide by the Chair's comment.  I will take it up in argument, thank you.
	Could you look at 4.6?
"We believe that this action would re-instil in the intimidated people of the Winterveld, faith that the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe would not tolerate atrocities against them"
You're referring here to people of Winterveld in general once more?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, I'm referring to the general public of Winterveld and South Africa broadly, but this happened in Winterveld and that is why I've mentioned Winterveld here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally Mr Masina, when you directed your operatives to go and carry out this operation, did you tell them the reason why this has to be done?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, I told them.  I told them that Molope is an enemy and therefore he's got to be eliminated.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You did not give them any other information other than that one?

JABU OBET MASINA: I don't recall any other information, other than the fact that Molope was an enemy and he had to be removed from the community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You told the Committee that Masango was a person who was doing the reconnaissance.

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For how long did he do it?

JABU OBET MASINA: I don't recall clearly, maybe he might refresh my memory.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay, did he give a report to you?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, he did report back to me that they have done the reconnaissance already.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you were satisfied with that?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the application that I made, one of the children would like to put question if the Chair allows.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
	Sir, could you for record purposes tell us your name please?

MR MOLOPE: My names are Gideon Molope.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was your relationship to Brigadier Molope, the deceased?

MR MOLOPE: That's my father.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Molope, you may ask the witness questions.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Masina, I heard from you that you were the commander of that particular unit, you were given orders by Chris Hani to come and kill Mr Molope because he's a puppet of the previous regime.  Whilst you were giving evidence I heard you talking about Mr Mokobojane.  I'm surprised at why you killed Mr Molope only and not Mr Mokobojane or both.  You said you did not kill him, you were a commander.  You were military trained in foreign countries ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think, Mr Molope, that we've got a question, let's answer that otherwise the question will get too long and we will forget all that has been asked.
	I think at this stage if you could answer the question which is: You identified two people and you mentioned Brigadier Molope and Mr Mokobojane as being, as said by yourself: "enemies of the people" and now you've only testified to the killing of Brigadier Molope, why did you not target and carry out an operation against the other person?

JABU OBET MASINA: Mokobojane was a target as well.  If we had a chance to eliminate him we would have done, but immediately after this he left Winterveld and we never managed to get hold of him.  We never knew what happened to him or where he went to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Molope, you can continue.

MR MOLOPE: Where you found him you were looking for him, is that so?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct.

MR MOLOPE: Why did you not look for Mr Mokobojane?

JABU OBET MASINA: We were looking for him but we couldn't get him.  Maybe if we were not arrested on time, maybe we would have got hold of him as well.

MR MOLOPE: Were you arrested?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct.

MR MOLOPE: When?

JABU OBET MASINA: In 1986.

MR MOLOPE: What were you arrested for?

JABU OBET MASINA: We were arrested for other things that we had done.

MR MOLOPE: Not about Molope's death?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, we were not - we were arrested for Molope's issue as well but we were not charged for it.

MR MOLOPE: I don't understand you.

JABU OBET MASINA: I say, we were arrested regarding Molope's matter as well but we were not, the South African Police did not charge us regarding that matter.  They told us that it would be a Bophutatswana matter.

MR MOLOPE: I don't understand you.  You say that after you killed him you were arrested.  I asked you what you were arrested for and then you said you were arrested for other cases and not for Molope's case.  Now you're saying the South African Police said that case would be dealt with by Bophutatswana.  I'm talking about Molope's case, not about other cases.  When you answered me you said you were not arrested, but you say the South African Police said that that case would be dealt with by the Boputhatswana Department of Justice.  Can you answer the question directly?

JABU OBET MASINA: Your question is, were we arrested regarding Molope's matter.  I'm saying that it was not only Molope's issue but the South African Police did not charge us regarding Molope's issue, they just told us that it's a Bophutatswana matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molope, at that time the courts in South African wouldn't have had the jurisdiction to try an offence which was then committed in a then different country, that is why that charge relating to your father would have to have been processed and handled by the Bophutatswana authorities and not the South African authorities.

MR MOLOPE: In other words, if I understand you correctly, about the incident you were not arrested?  They did not arrest you for this particular case?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, we were never charged for Molope's issue but the South African Police were aware that we assassinated Molope, after being tortured by them.

MR MOLOPE: You said Chris Hani is the one who gave you orders to tell members of your unit to kill Molope?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct.

MR MOLOPE: That is to say that the work which you used to do and the way you have told me, you did not only kill Mr Molope?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct.

MR MOLOPE: Where are you working presently?

JABU OBET MASINA: I'm working for NIA.

MR MOLOPE: I don't understand you.

JABU OBET MASINA: I'm working for the National Intelligence Agency.

MR MOLOPE: Why do you ask for forgiveness for what you have done?