Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: It might just be a help for the sake of the record that if you were able - you can say no, it's all very privileged, do you want to say that?

MR SEMENYA: Well, my notes will be privileged Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What I was going to suggest is, if you were able to photocopy it - I'm asking - you could say: "It's privileged" and then I'll have to consult a little later.  What I was saying was that it would be helpful if we could have it there as something that you say you got from your client.

MR SEMENYA: I do have my notes and I would contend that they're privileged Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Would that information be correct or incorrect Sir?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: I want to finally read you one of your statements.  May you be shown a statement dated the 28th of July 1997  May the witness be shown the statement ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Could you indicate which statement you're referring to?

MR SEMENYA: It must be a statement given to the members of the TRC, dated ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Whose statement is that?

MR SEMENYA: Jerry Richardson's.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the statement before you?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I can see it Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it yours?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, it's mine Mr Chair.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] to read a phrase in it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Please I'm requesting that my photos come back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] his property?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: No English translation.

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold onto them, thank you.
 Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Maybe just to lead my reading of this statement, which persons - as a member of the Mandela Football Club as you put it, were killed first? - person or persons?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Could you please repeat.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] that you killed in your life?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know where to start.

MR SEMENYA: You no longer know who you killed first in your life?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] statement - I take it that it is page 4 as they're not numbered, you're saying that the word: "dump" had acquired a meaning that somebody must be killed for playing dirty tricks - according to the chronology of the events, nobody was dead by this time.    Are you able to respond?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: What was your answer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I have knowledge - I don't respond.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we will take the adjournment until ...[inaudible]
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JERRY RICHARDSON: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Strictly 5 minutes, strictly no compassion whatsoever.  Kindly settle, thank you very much.  Mr Soller?

MR SOLLER: Mr Commissioner, Peter Soller on behalf of Mr Mbatha.
 Mr Richardson, you've been - here I am - you've been sitting ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, can you just settle because the witness has difficulty hearing the questions, thank you very much.

MR SOLLER: Mr Richardson, you've been sitting for approximately 7 days in the well of this auditorium next to a gentleman by the name of Mbatha and another gentleman by the name Dlamini, had you ever met those two gentlemen before this hearing?

CHAIRPERSON: Just switch on your - thank you.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

MR SOLLER: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, I didn't get an answer to that.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] please.

MR SOLLER: Mr Richardson, do you know a lady by the name of Mrs Phumlile Dlamini?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: There's a lot of outside noise - the traffic, and with your passing it gets a great deal more difficult.  May I just appeal again for order.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, it appears as if the sound is not coming through Mr Soller's headphones, maybe he should exchange with his clerk or his colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you all right now?

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, but I have no further questions to ask.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SOLLER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Yes, Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, just a couple of questions - sorry, the name is Michael Miller.
 Just a couple of questions Mr Richardson.  Firstly, I appeared last week for a gentleman by the name of Jabu Sithole who you have referred to in your evidence, you say that Jabu Sithole was arrested and charged together with you, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: For what - the murder of Stompie?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know what charges were laid against Jabu but I think it was four counts.

MR MILLER: ...[inaudible] event, he says he didn't do anything wrong and he doesn't know why he was charged, do you know?  Are you able to comment on that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was arrested with Jabu Sithole and I don't think he would have been arrested if he didn't do anything.

MR MILLER: Where did he live?  Did he live in the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, can I ask the police - I'm being disturbed by all of that singing, can they go and sing a further distance away from here?  Can the police ensure that please?

MR MILLER: Well, sorry Chairperson.
 He says that he lived in Mrs Mandela's house in Orlando and that after it was burnt down he moved out, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: Now, I just want to finally ask you a couple of questions about Tulani Dlamini whom I also appear for.  Now, you are aware that Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat was killed by Dlamini and by Mbatha, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct, I do know that.

MR MILLER: Were you at any time - prior to the murder of Doctor Asvat, party to any plans to murder him or did you hear such plans being discussed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I wasn't party to it but I saw them or met them after they had done that or killed Doctor Asvat.

MR MILLER: But did you hear discussion in Mrs Mandela's home between her and any other person about the plans to kill Doctor Asvat?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR MILLER: Who introduced Dlamini and Mbatha to Mrs Mandela, do you know?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I don't.

MR MILLER: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Miss Sita?

MRS SITA: I'm Mrs Sita for John Morgan.
 Mr Richardson, my client John Morgan testified on Monday last week that on the fourth day - after the assaults took place on the four youths, Mrs Mandela instructed him: "Go dump that dog".  He went to the back room and he saw Stompie Sepei lying there in that room with a pool of blood around his neck, what is your comment to that Sir?

JERRY RICHARDSON: John Morgan was giving evidence as to what he saw and if that's what he says he saw, that is what he saw.

MRS SITA: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS SITA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Kades?

MR KADES: Kades, on behalf of the Asvat family.
 Mr Richardson, ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR KADES: As coach of the soccer team, were you paid a salary?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I wasn't paid.

MR KADES: What was your source of income during that period?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was working at Plaza Rain.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible]

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: Now, you've said that you visited Doctor Asvat on three occasions and the card that we have in our possession - the patient's card, shows that you visited him on the 26th and the 27th of January 1989, can you tell us when the third occasion was?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Could you please repeat the details on the card?

MR KADES: Maybe we can show you the card.  Do you see that card, it has your name on it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I can see my name.

MR KADES: And your address of: 9794A Orlando West?