Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR MALAN: That is where you wouldn't otherwise be able to legally acquire a weapon and you think that you needed to protect an informer or an agent.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That would be so, yes.

MR MALAN: Or provide him with some protection?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Give us another example of what you would need a throw away weapon for.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Another reason for having one of those weapons would be to plant it on somebody, to implicate somebody.

MR MALAN: Are you saying to us that you went into the Police Force, to act indiscriminately whether it was legal or illegal?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I think my evidence from the beginning has been that I definitely didn't go into the Force to act illegally.

MR MALAN: So at some stage, that became quite acceptable to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, it was not acceptable, but considering what has happening at that time, I was protecting myself.

MR MALAN: And others?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes.

MR MALAN: You referred now when you were responding to these last rounds of questions, to the two weapons, but you earlier said that you procured some 12 or more weapons?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: What would they have been for?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said, I handed them out.  Either gave them to  someone at Vlakplaas that handed them out, I might have given some of them to some ex-colleagues at Vlakplaas for whatever use they saw fir.

MR MALAN: Was there any central arsenal to which you contributed those weapons and deposited it there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not that I can recall.

MR MALAN: So you simply got 12 weapons and you dished them out to whoever of your colleagues would have use of them?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: What were you telling them when you were handing them these weapons?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall what I said to them.

MR MALAN: Just walked up to someone and said pal, here is a weapon, a throw away or use it for an informer or whatever?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Like I said, I don't remember what I said to them.

MR MALAN: And you did that on your own, without authority from any of your senior officers?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I arranged for those weapons on my own.

MR MALAN: Did they know, your senior officers, that you were going about this way?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine someone knew.  If a number of people at Vlakplaas had weapons like that, someone must have known about that.  I cannot for certain say that they had knowledge.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, was it acceptable at Vlakplaas that anyone and everyone could do his own thing?  Because clearly in this instance, this is what you have been doing with the weapons?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, it wasn't acceptable Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: So you were acting outside of orders and certainly not with the consent at that stage, or authority given to you by your superiors?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I recall, no, I didn't get authority or no one consented to that.

MR MALAN: If this was the practice, why would you have assumed orders to have been there and authority whenever actions were ordered?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said earlier Mr Chairman, I know for a fact that on previous occasions, feedback and authority for actions were asked from Vlakplaas, so I assumed that.

MR MALAN: But you didn't ask any authority on these weapons and you did not give any feedback.  You simply dished them out?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is my recollection Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Now how does that tally with the disciplined approach of orders and feedback that you talk about in general terms?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It doesn't tally.

MR MALAN: Any explanation for that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: None whatsoever Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Rosslee, when these unauthorised weapons were required, can you remember who the Commanding Officer at Vlakplaas was?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: At that time it was Major De Kock.

MR VISSER: Was he unaware of the possession of these firearms by you and other members?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember if he was aware of us being in possession of them, or not.

MR VISSER: Because Mr McCarter seems to recall that they were handed out at Vlakplaas and I think and I don't want to say, lay words in his mouth, but I seem to recall that he said it was handed out by Mr Eugene de Kock.  Would that be incorrect?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is not inconceivable.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is completely contrary to what this witness has said.

MR VISSER: That is what I am putting to him now Mr Chairman, that that is indeed, that is an opposition to the evidence that he has just given.  What do you say, are you correct or is Mr McCarter correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: If Mr McCarter says that he received the weapon from Mr De Kock, I would have to concede that point.  I know that I acquired the weapons, I took them to Vlakplaas and I handed them out to some people.  I don't know if there were weapons left that got handed out to other people or what happened.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, why if you have a recollection that you handed him the pistol, and he says something else that he got it from De Kock, why must you concede that he is correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do not, in my statement I said that I had handed him the pistol.

MR MALAN: Yes.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: All right, I cannot now sitting here say that I can recollect giving him the pistol.

MR MALAN: But why must you concede the correctness of his evidence, that is my question?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I am just saying that in likelihood my remembering bringing the weapons to Vlakplaas, it is very possible that Mr De Kock had given him a weapon there.

MR MALAN: Isn't it possible that McCarter was lying to us?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You made a statement on oath, saying you handed the weapons to him.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you now say it might be that I was wrong?  How could you make a statement on oath like that?  You didn't say you weren't sure, you said you did it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, right now where I am sitting here, I cannot remember handing that firearm to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I may be wrong in what I am going to say right now Mr Chairman, I am checking it, but I seem to recall Mr Chairman, that the evidence that Mr Rosslee gave to you, that he gave one of the firearms to McCarter was told to me in consultation, and doesn't appear from the documents, but I may be wrong.
	I think that that is where it comes from Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: He also says it in the statement.

MR VISSER: I have been looking for it Mr Chairman, and I couldn't find it.

MR MALAN: We will check on that.

MR VISSER: On page 6, where he says I think one of the others shot with the other pistol.  By inference means that it was one of the two pistols that he refers to and this is why we covered that in consultation, and that is why I placed that evidence before you, so that you can be aware of that Mr Chairman.
	He doesn't specifically say anywhere, that he gave the other firearm to McCarter.

MR MALAN: He says it on page 5 in the middle, for these purposes I had two 6.35 pistols which I have already had for a long time.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, reading that together with what is on page 6, the inference is irresistible that one of the two was given to the other person, but that is why we consulted with the witness and we placed it in the interest of full disclosure, before you.

CHAIRPERSON: And later given back to him?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he goes straight on to say that the two pistols were then ...

MR VISSER: You are absolutely correct Mr Chairman, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There is only one inference one could draw from Exhibit B.