Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, Chairperson, during the training that I had in Mkuze and when I was training the people, I was getting a salary.  Even if I didn't come here, I was still going to get paid a salary.  So, when I came back here they were still paying me the same salary.  That is my salary.  I wasn't paid according to the work or hitting a target.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All right.  Perhaps it's a little bit unfair, but let me try it.  Had you not carried out this operation -had you not carried out these operations in Ermelo, as well as Davel, would you have received the eight hundred rand (R800,00)?

CHAIRPERSON: But, Mr Mpshe, if you haven't done your work for the last two months would you get a salary if you didn't work?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that's exactly what I'm trying to find out because I'm looking ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then ask him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The line of my question, Mr Chairman, is based on the provisions of the Act.  That's exactly what I am looking for.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, M Z Khumalo was since to proceed paying me the salary.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Should we now adjourn to half past eleven for the tea adjournment.
[SHORT ADJOURNMENT]
[ON RESUMPTION]

MR MOLOI: I have none thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

UNKNOWN: Just two, Chairperson.  Mr Hlongwane, under cross-examination you said you would even tell about business people who were collecting money.  What was that money collected for?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was collected to support the Black Cats for transport to Ulundi to meetings or rally meetings.

UNKNOWN: Were those the business people around the Ermelo district?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct, in Ermelo.

UNKNOWN: And lastly, you said Humphrey Ndlovu provided arms.  You recall saying so?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

UNKNOWN: Under whose care were those arms when they reached Ermelo?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: They were under me and Noah Mqobakazi.

UNKNOWN: And since you were residing at Mkhonza, were they kept there where you resided?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, and if I had to work at Davel I had to take them to Davel and bring them back at Mkhonza's place.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTATA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MRS KHAMPEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of the questions put by Mr Motata, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

MR PATEL: None, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL

MR HEWITT: None, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT

MR BLACK: I also have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK

MR MULLER: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLER

MR SWANEPOEL: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Hlongwane, you can stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, that is the case for the applicants whom I represent.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.
CASE FOR THE APPLICANTS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: I don't intend to call any witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: We don't propose to lead any witnesses.

MR BLACK: I won't be leading any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: I won't call any witnesses, Mr Chairman.

MR SWANEPOEL: No witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magadi, I left you out.

MR MAGADI: I have no witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that then brings this hearing - we must just make arrangements with regard to the question of submissions and argument.  I don't know if the legal representatives wish to - have you finalised dates in that regard?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we have not finalised dates, but certain days were mooted, but this is subject to my learned friends' confirmation later.  We suggest that if short heads could be filed by the 16th of November and then argument would be done on the 20th of November, but this is tentative depending on their later confirmation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what we should do before we adjourn is at least fix the date for the submission of the heads.  Can it not be sooner than the 16th of November?  It's quite long.  It's two (2) months.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, the only concern we have is the typing of the record.  I would need the record in order to prepare argument, but if we could have a period of two weeks after the record.  The problem therein lies with some of us, for example, myself and Mr Falconer are both involved in another commission and if the record comes at the wrong time then we have to devote ourselves for two weeks for that commission.  But I agree if, for example, the record could be provided within two weeks then - or we could get the record within two or three weeks then we could make it earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we're talking about the record of this particular portion.  I think the - I haven't seen the Hammarsdale record yet.  Is that available yet?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that should be available by now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the record for this hearing shouldn't take too long to type.  After all we've only been having evidence for a day and a portion.  So, I would expect, you know, if the people are quick in getting it across to the stenographers, it shouldn't take long in actual typing.  Could we have the heads of argument in by the end of October?  That would be for the whole lot, Mr Wills.  For Durban, Empangeni.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I would imagine that we would be submitting full heads in respect of the total application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And, Mr Magadi, you've arranged to inform Mr Stewart of that?

MR MAGADI: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will have to confirm that with the counsel, Mr Stewart.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be suitable then if we say the heads of argument in by, if you want to submit heads, because I know sometimes the implicated people they don't want to put up any argument.  They don't have to, but we would be expecting heads certainly from the applicants and those parties objecting to the applications.
	Yes, well then before we adjourn I would just like to thank everybody who has made it possible for the holding of this hearing.  The interpreters for the work they've done.  For the catering which we've received here.  I must say, it was very good.  To the authorities for providing this very nice venue.  I'll come to you now.  To the security people who provided security here and the witness protection program people for the work that they've done.  The sound technologists.  And in fact everybody involved in the logistics and arrangements of the hearing, I thank you very much and I also thank all the people for attending the hearing.  Thank you very much.  Mr Mpshe, you said you want to say something.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thanks for the indulgence.  Mr Chairman, in compliance with the section 22 of the Act, as it is usually done, to put on record the names of victims as well as their particulars.  Mr Chairman, I do have the names.  There are 26 in all, but unfortunately they did not give what is supposed to be on the list.  Would it be apposite, Mr Chairman, that I just mention that there are 26 victims and the names will be submitted in Cape Town in a written form.