Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Which bore the words "Groutville post-mortem number 109/97".

CHAIRPERSON: Groutville post-mortem 109/97?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR LAX: Was there, sorry, I was just going to say was there a paper trail relating to that number at all?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No, it wasn't identified to me by that number.  I took it that this was the number of the mortuary, the intervening mortuary that received the body before they transported it to Durban.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Now I have forgotten what I had asked you.  Oh yes ...

MR LAX: About the pointing out of the body.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the pointing out.

MR VISSER: You see, on Exhibit R1 there is a tag?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And that tag says PM1155/97?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now, is that the tag that you have now just referred to on questions asked by Mr Lax?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: This is a tag that I would write, simply for the purpose of photography, I or my technician would write that.

MR VISSER: All right.  Were you now referring then to another tag?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Which one is that?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I don't think it is actually reflected in the photograph.

MR VISSER: Well, look at figure 2, is it there?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That would be the same one that I would write.

MR VISSER: I am looking for the other tag that you are referring to.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: You are referring to Groutville?

MR VISSER: Well, any other tag?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No, that is not reflected in the photograph.

MR VISSER: I thought I just heard you say that in the bag there was another tag?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was that the only other tag that you are referring to, the Groutville 109?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, that is the only other tag.

MR VISSER: Well, let's look at that Dr Naidoo, that is at page 25 of Bundle 2?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: That is the last sentence of the first paragraph?  It says
"... the remains Groutville PM109/97."

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That is right.

MR VISSER: What does that mean to you?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It simply means that it has another identification booking in number, and presumably by another mortuary.

MR VISSER: What does PM stand for?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Post-mortem.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Does it seem to suggest that another post-mortem was conducted on this body?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No, not at all.  As soon as it gets into a mortuary register, it is given a post-mortem number, also called DR number, death register number.

MR VISSER: Was this body taken to Gale Street?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No.  Just to enlighten the Commission, during that period, we had transferred operations from Gale Street to Pinetown.  The Gale Street mortuary was in the process of being refurbished, and during that process, we were at the Pinetown mortuary.
	This post-mortem was done bearing Durban's post-mortem 1155/97, but done at Pinetown.

MR VISSER: And bearing a Groutville number?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Also bearing a Groutville number.

MR VISSER: Because you see, at page 82(a), I was under the impression that what Dr Aiyer said in his last paragraph before the NB note, was that "the remains were placed in a blue plastic body bag, sealed, assigned, the label unknown from Charlottedale cemetery."  Can I just stop there?
	Did you find a label from Charlottedale cemetery in the bag?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I cannot recall and neither have I made a note of that.

MR VISSER: Would you have made a note if you had found it?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Not necessarily, I will be looking for a Groutville number.

MR VISSER: Why wouldn't you have made a note of something you found in the bag, doctor?  Especially an identification number?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: A number?  This doesn't have a number.

MR VISSER: It says a label?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: A label yes.

MR VISSER: I am assuming, you wouldn't put a label without a number?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No, you would, Dr Aiyer at the time, at the exhumation site, he wouldn't have a number.

MR VISSER: Well, it is an assigned label from Charlottedale cemetery, so I am not suggesting he put the number there, I am just reading to you what is here.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, but it doesn't have a number.

MR VISSER: All right.  Did you have this exhumation report before you when you did your post-mortem?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No.  No, I didn't.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now let's just continue, he says
"... and he handed it (that is the remains) to Insp Andrew Hadi Moolan from the SAPS Stanger (and now I come to the words) for transportation to the Police mortuary in Stanger."

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Does that make sense to you?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: From Stanger, where does it go?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No, I have no idea.

MR VISSER: Will you assume - neither do we.

MR LAX: Can I just ask ...

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just get a bit of geography, where is Groutville?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It is in the same area, North Coast, I assume that the Groutville area is served by the Stanger mortuary.

CHAIRPERSON: Charlottedale?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Sorry.

MR LAX: I was about to say that Groutville is in Stanger, it is part of the Stanger district, it is right next door to Stanger.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, I think it is served by the Stanger mortuary.  In terms of drainage of bodies.

MR VISSER: Did I hear you correctly to say doctor, that you opened the bag and you found an ID tag, PM1155 from Gale Street, is that what you said?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: The outer blue bag would be additionally tagged, with PM1155/97 yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, but from Gale Street?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: What does that signify to you?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It is simply the, how it happens is upon transport from Stanger, Groutville, whatever to Gale Street, it gets into Gale Street's book, so they assigned a second number to it.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: That is exactly what I want to know from you.  so there would be a record in Gale Street about this particular body?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, there is.

MR VISSER: That you did a post-mortem examination on?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Have you ever seen that entry or that record?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I probably, I cannot recall, it was our practice at one stage to sign the register as soon as we have completed the post-mortem, but that fell away because we left it to the police to do their paper work correctly, and we don't fill in the register any more, I mean at least until I was there.  I cannot recall whether I have looked at the particular register on that particular page.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, I just want to clear up something, is there a mortuary in Groutville?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I don't think so, Mr Chairman, I think that that would go to Stanger.

CHAIRPERSON: But then why would somebody put Groutville PM109 if there is not a mortuary in Groutville?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I cannot explain why they would actually write the words Groutville, only what I could assume is that it is an additional entry on that ticket.
	Perhaps it is the, this is a pure speculation, perhaps it is a habit of the policemen at Stanger mortuary.

CHAIRPERSON: Strictly speaking it wouldn't be correct?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It wouldn't be correct, or it would not reflect truly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because there is no mortuary in Groutville, and they don't do post-mortems there?