Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: I have now been given a copy of the additional affidavit, my Lord.  Obviously it has been given to me about five minutes back, but in order not to waste any further time, I would prefer to carry on with cross examination.
	I will do the necessary comparisons with the other statement during the long adjournment, but I think it's advisable.  We have wasted enough time in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: If anyone wants to see it, I have the original signed.

MR BOOYENS: I accept that I have been given a true copy of the original, my Lord.

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

MR BOOYENS: (cont)
	Mr Mbane, this further statement that you say you made on 17th November, how did it happen that you made this statement?  What happened?  Tell us about that please.

JIMMY MBANE: What made me to make this statement is because the person who was enquiring was interested solely on the Guguletu matter, thus I gave a statement.

MR BOOYENS: Well, when you made your previous statement, you also referred fairly at length to the Guguletu matter, not so.  I'm talking about the statement that you made in Johannesburg on the 21st August 1996.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And, it was your intention at that stage to give as full details as possible in that statement.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: The statement takers, if you look clearly on this statement you can see that there was a communication breakdown because they were talking in Tsetswana and I was Xhosa speaking and the treatment that they gave me was not appropriate, so there was disagreement all the time between us, myself and the statement takers.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, you speak fairly good English, because I have noticed a few times you have actually answered questions before they were translated for you.  Not so?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I do, I try.

MR BOOYENS: And when this statement was taken, did you read it?  I am talking about the Johannesburg statement.

JIMMY MBANE: I read it, but not all of it, because I had my own things to do.  I was in a hurry.

MR BOOYENS: Well, what did you read and what didn't you read?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't read the whole statement.
	But the second one, I read it thoroughly and I told them that there were some wrong things that appeared on it, and there was a confusion about people's names as well.

MR BOOYENS: I'm talking about the first one.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by the second one?

JIMMY MBANE: In Gauteng, there were two statements that were taken down.

MR BOOYENS: Just look at this statement...is this...where is that second Gauteng statement?  Have you got that in your possession?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I don't have it with me.

MR BOOYENS: Now, why didn't you inform your Counsel, because they led you from a statement which we are now told is the wrong statement, why didn't you tell your Counsel, or Ms Berlin that this statement is wrong, I cannot testify from it.  There's another statement.

JIMMY MBANE: This statement I made it here in Cape Town and I thought about it only this morning and I enquired about and that is when it was handed to me.  The copy thereof.

MR BOOYENS: No, but I understood you to say in a question to the Honourable Chairman that you made two statements in Gauteng.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now that second statement is missing.  Or is the second statement the one from which you have been giving evidence?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you have been giving evidence from the second statement, when Ms Berlin led your evidence from your statement, this is the second Gauteng statement, the correct one?

JIMMY MBANE: She was reading from the second one.

MR BOOYENS: Well, that's the one I have in my possession and the one everyone else seems to have in their possession. That was the correct statement in other words.  Because if it was the wrong statement, you would have informed your legal representatives that this is the incorrect statement, don't lead my evidence on it.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, but I don't know what's incorrect in it, I am not sure.

MR BOOYENS: Please Mr Mbane, I have been told by your Counsel that you people consulted till 2 'o clock at night and he even asked the Commission for extra time.  Your Counsel is obviously a very responsible man and if you informed him - there were things wrong and those were pointed out, some names.  You recall that?  Such as there's sometimes a wrong reference to Eric Maluleka etc., and the question of whether it was your first operation and you said it was your first big operation.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: If you can notice on his statement there are some things that I scratched out, that I indicated were wrong.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, and you were led about that, we all heard about that.  What I want to know from you is apart from those mistakes that were rectified in your evidence in chief, you did not deem it necessary to point out to them that there were other things, and additional information.  Is that right?
	Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: That never came to my mind.

MR BOOYENS: But you are an experienced witness, you gave evidence in security cases on a number of occasions where you were probably cross examined by some of the best Advocates in this country.  Why didn't it come to your mind.  You are experienced, you're not a rookie in the witness box.

JIMMY MBANE: Well, it happened and I don't know how I would rectify that. It happened, it can be undone...

MR BOOYENS: No, you are trying to undo it.  What I still want to know from you is why was Mr Bellingan's name not mentioned with the one exception that I have pointed out to you, which has got nothing to do with Guguletu, why was Mr Bellingan's name never mentioned in connection with Guguletu in your written statement made in Johannesburg?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know but the bottom line is that I was with Belletjies here in Cape Town.

MR BOOYENS: That's not the answer to my question.  I can understand if you mentioned him on one occasion and they left the name out. That can happen, an error can happen, but it's not mentioned once, and on what you tell us now every time you spoke to both him and Liebenberg.  Have you got any explanation you can offer for that?

JIMMY MBANE: There is no explanation to that, but the bottom line is that I was with Belletjies in the Cape Town operation.

MR BOOYENS: And the very important aspect of your evidence, that you informed Bellingan and Liebenberg that these people were a bunch of, a group of innocent youths, is contained neither in your - well let's call it the second Johannesburg statement, or in the Cape Town statement.  Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: That I don't know.  But it appears on the Cape Town statement.

MR BOOYENS: It does not.  Show it to me please.  You've got it in front of you.  Like I said, I read through it very quickly, I'm quite happy to accept that I may make a mistake.

JIMMY MBANE: It appears on paragraph number 7.

MR BOOYENS: No.  Paragraph 7 says only one was trained, but I am talking about you told us that after you met with this group you specifically went back and reported that this four are completely innocent, they don't pose a threat to anybody, you reported that specifically to Bellingan and Liebenberg.  Where is that in this statement.  It's not here.  Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: I told them these people are not trained and there's only one who has been trained.  I spoke to Belletjies and Liebenberg about this.

MR BOOYENS: Do you understand the question? Well then answer it.