Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, one of the members of the Committee told me not to be long, lengthy when answering the questions, I have to be brief.  I answered your question, I said I had a Commander and I waited for the next question.
	If he had asked me about my Commander's whereabouts, I would be able to tell him that the Commander passed away.

MR LAX: When exactly did you acquire your new name, Xobani from TNT?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I got it at Butterworth.

MR LAX: Was that after the Bahai mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct sir.

MR LAX: Well, you see, your co-applicant said in his evidence that he knew that name before that time.  He knew you by that name before that time.  That is how he knew you were a member of APLA, he said, because he knew you had a (indistinct), in other words a war name.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: He was making a mistake.  I understand that he actually made a mistake with my name, the one that they call me from my township, it is more Xobani.   The people whom I grew up with, they are using a name that is similar to Xobani.

MR LAX: Did you grow up with him, the first applicant?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No.

MR LAX: I see.  In your confession and in your trial, you said that you gave evidence, you can correct me if I am wrong, against your co-applicant and others because you were really angry with them because you felt they had betrayed you.  Is that right?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct sir.

MR LAX: But of course, the one person who hadn't betrayed you at that stage, was Jimmy Jones.  Isn't that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct sir.

MR LAX: So why did you name him, why did you bring him into it?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason sir, as I told you before, I was forced to lie there so as to minimise guilt on my side.  Even if I didn't implicate comrade Jimmy Jones, the Police already had information about him at the time, although I don't even know where they get that information.
	In some of the things, they would lead me and to save myself from the assault, I would just end up telling what they were saying because it was the truth.

MR LAX: So in this confession, there is a lot of truth as well?  Is that what you are saying?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I said in my confession sir, there is both lies and truth.

MR LAX: You see, in your trial, you said that Jimmy Jones remonstrated your colleagues, he said why are you coming back here?  Mr Ntonga pointed out that passage to you, I pointed out that passage to you.  Do you remember that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I remember sir.

MR LAX: And yes, that does tend to help you, but it also tends to exculpate Mr Jones, because it makes it look like he never gave you that order at all.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That actually tried to help me and it was actually saving comrade Jimmy Jones, as I had told you and you, and Jimmy Jones at that time, did not betray me.  You said so and I said yes, and you asked me why did I try to implicate him.
	I did that because Police already had information about Jimmy Jones, but as I was implicating him, I tried there shouldn't anything that could lead to his arrest because of what I said, as you were saying sir, that that was actually taking him out of the crime as I am telling you, as I said I told the Police that Jimmy Jones reprimanded them.  He even asked them why did they do this and go to Jimmy Jones' place.

MR LAX: You see, you didn't say that in your confession, you said that in your trial.  In your confession you fingered him fairly and squarely, one hundred percent in the picture.
	But in your trial, you seemed to have tried to change that.  Please explain to us why.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for me to change during the trial, as you are saying sir, as you were explaining that I said I was angry during my trial, that the reason why I implicated Dumisani Ncamazana, during the trial sir, during the trial we had met JJ, we had met with JJ and it was his advice that we should say this and that.

MR LAX: What was this and that, what should you say?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That was long ago sir, the trial was long ago.

MR LAX: I want you to try and remember, I know it was a long time ago.  I want you to think really hard.  You are here to tell us the truth, you better try and tell us the truth.  I want to know what Jimmy Jones told you.
	It is very important that you try and remember what he told you.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The only thing that I can still remember is that he said we must not mention his name as a Commander who actually gave the orders.

MR LAX: Why would you mention his name at all, because by mentioning his name as an APLA Commander, whether he gave orders or not, he was in enough trouble already, just by doing that?
	So why would you mention his name at all?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I didn't see it that way sir.  Because even the Police were unable to make him as one of the accused, because during the trial, I was left with Dumisani Ncamazana, even he was actually running away from anything that would implicate him.
	Anything that would say that he was the one who actually gave orders, therefore Police were unable to arrest him, unless we tell the Police that he is the one who actually gave the orders.  Without him, we wouldn't go and do anything, without him giving orders.

MR LAX: Would you as an APLA soldier, participated in any operation without a direct command to do so?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Besides this Bahai incident, there is no other incident that I was ever involved in without a direct command.

MR LAX: I am asking you, were you supposed to participate in an operation without a direct order to do so?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is not what you asked, you asked would he have.

MR LAX: I put the question incorrectly, what I am really asking you is were you entitled to participate in operations without proper orders or direct orders?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That was not allowed, but it would depend on the situation prevailing at the time.

MR LAX: You see, the reason I say this is you have told us that as an APLA member, and as a soldier, your duty was to simply carry out your orders.
	Your order was to return with those people, correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR LAX: Now you say that Jones never gave you the order to participate in the Bahai matter.  That is correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, Jimmy Jones did not give me the instruction to participate in the Bahai operation.  What actually happened is that those comrades wouldn't go back to Unit 3 where I was staying therefore they were forced to take me with.
	I did not have a choice.  I am not sure, maybe it was among their instructions that I must also participate, I am not sure.

MR LAX: You have just said it was your instruction to return to that base, and that you had no instruction to participate in that attack.  You have just confirmed that for me.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I just said so sir.

MR LAX: So the question is, who ordered you to participate in that attack?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It was the Unit Commander.

MR LAX: But you have just told us that he have no authority to order you to do that, earlier in the evidence today.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, sir I said so that he didn't have the authority to tell me, did not have authority to tell me but I just told you sir, as you were asking, if there was any operation that I was involved in without a direct instruction from Jimmy Jones, my answer to that was apart from this Bahai incident, there is no other operation, and you went on sir, asking and I told you that  - you asked me if can I also be involved in an operation whereas I wasn't there when the orders were being given.
	I said it is not possible, but it depends on the situation prevailing at the time.  You did not ask me about that, how does that depend, what the situation can be.  It is one of the situations like the Bahai incident.

MR LAX: It is fine Mr Mbambo.