Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Before I ask you about this racism word I wantto know from you whose handwriting is this?

ANSWER: It's my handwriting.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now the English that is written here is ityour English written here?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now the word "racism", do you understandthe word?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : How do you understand this word "racism"?

ANSWER: It is separation, it is discrimination againstother people in race.

<UNKNOWN>: : The deceased was living amongst the black people,do you know that?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where did you know him staying?

ANSWER: No I didn't know where he was staying, I didn'teven know him.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you end up knowing his name?

ANSWER: Yes after I was charged I was told his name andI was found guilty.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you end up knowing where he stayed beforeyou stabbed him?

ANSWER: No, before I stabbed him I did not know wherehe was staying.

<UNKNOWN>: : Listen carefully, after stabbing him, afteryou were convicted you ended up knowing where he was staying.

ANSWER: Yes, I was told that he was a person who usedto walk around the old township.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he not staying there?

ANSWER: No I was never told of that, I didn't hear that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yesterday before you went back to prison youmet a white person here, is that so?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now this white person spoke to you?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did she tell you who she was?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who did she say she was?

ANSWER: She said she was the mother of the deceased,the person I am appearing before the Committee and she said hisname was Thabo and she said she knew that, who killed her sonand she was really asking for forgiveness for me and I also askforgiveness from her.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now you are in front of the Committee and youmet the deceased's mother, what do you say to this Committee thenabout that incident that you did?

ANSWER: Before the Committee I would like to say I amreally sorry, I am asking for forgiveness everything happenedbecause of political reasons.
MR ?:: For record purposes Mr Chairman I want to put iton record that the person referred to by the applicant as beingthe mother to the deceased is one Cornelia Grobbelaar, she wasindeed present yesterday.   I spoke to her, I explained her rightsto her and she indicated to me that she's not interested to comeback here today but she knows what her rights are.   So she isnot present in the hall today but she was yesterday.   Thank youMr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Sukudu who was the leader or the commanderof the SDU?

ANSWER: Petrus Machabi Tulo(?).

<UNKNOWN>: : Who was the leader of the ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: It was also Petrus Machabi Tulo.

<UNKNOWN>: : You testified that the Three Million Gang washarassing and killing members of the ANC, including innocent people?  My question to you is how many ANC members were killed?

ANSWER: It was more than 20.

<UNKNOWN>: : I remember the last one who was killed wasSiti Tsephasa?

<UNKNOWN>: : No I don't a long time has passed since then.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was your brother who was confined to a wheelchaira member of the ANC?

ANSWER: He was normally a supporter, no not a member.

<UNKNOWN>: : It is at one stage you moved to the old Maokengtownship, for how long did you stay there?

ANSWER: I explained that on that day I was running fromGeluk.....running to the old township it was on a Saturday.

<UNKNOWN>: : For how long did you stay in the old Maokengtownship?

ANSWER: I never stayed there for a long time, I justwent there because I was running from the police.   It was thefirst time that I ran to that place, we usually change place andon that Saturday it was the first time I went to hide at the oldlocation.

<UNKNOWN>: : For one day and then moved?

ANSWER: I didn't stay it was only on that day when Iwent to that location when this incident happened that broughtme here before the Committee.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who are these other people you were with onthe day of this incident, the other comrades you referred to?

ANSWER: It was my two compatriots, the one was Sidneyand the other was Pula Pusa Mlanane.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did they participate in the killing of Mr Grobbelaar?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do we understand you to be saying that youon your own and alone left them and attacked the deceased?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : You told us that the deceased spoke to you,remember that?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did he say to you?

ANSWER: He asked me that, he said to me I look like aleader of the people I was with.

<UNKNOWN>: : What had prompted him to say that?

ANSWER: I think it was that combat leather jacket thatI was wearing which had ANC flags on it.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is that after you had gone to him yourself?

ANSWER: No he first came to me.

<UNKNOWN>: : You saw him at 12 hours and you approachedhim?

ANSWER: I explained that at about 12 o'clock we alightedfrom the taxi and we enter in the old location and that is whenhe was coming from the other direction and he talked to me onthe spot where we met and when he talked to me I didn't respondI only drew out my knife and stabbed him.

<UNKNOWN>: : When this man, the deceased, asked you whetheryou are the leader of the ANC you produced a knife and stabbedhim?

ANSWER: Yes I stabbed him I didn't respond to his question.

<UNKNOWN>: : That is what caused you to kill him, the questionthat he asked you?

ANSWER: What he said to me caused me to think that hewas also one of my enemies and that is what made me to kill him.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you ascertain whether he was one of thewhite men who were looking for you?

ANSWER: No I didn't ascertain that.

<UNKNOWN>: : You concluded from his question and then youstabbed him?

ANSWER: Yes because he was a white person.

<UNKNOWN>: : So if you see a white, why do you say you didthat because he was a white person?

ANSWER: My political understanding at that time toldme that all white people were my enemies.

<UNKNOWN>: : Am I correct to state that you killed thisman simply because he was a white person?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : You testified that you stabbed him thrice andhe fled?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : You were told by your counsel, reminding youof the purpose of this gathering and reminding you of the criminaltrial, at the criminal trial was a postmortem report been shownto you?

ANSWER: I don't understand the question.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did the State in the criminal trial show youor lead evidence as to the stabbing of the deceased by means ofa postmortem report?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Just to remind you, Mr Chairman and Membersof the Committee there is the postmortem attached to his applicationthat is page 20 of the indexing.   I'm on page 20 of the indexing.  It will be page 19 of the postmortem but 20 of the index.  Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee I'm on page 2 which becomespage 20 of the indexing.   That is so Mr Chairman.   On this pagereferred to it is indicated that this man received four stab wounds,do you remember this being said to you?

ANSWER: No I don't remember that, I remember that hewas stabbed three times.

<UNKNOWN>: : The report was shown to you as you have indicated.

ANSWER: Yes it was a long time, maybe it is like that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Have you told this Committee everything youdid pertaining to the killing of the deceased, how you started,what followed thereafter up to the end, did you tell us everything?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you not ask for cigarettes and money fromthe deceased first?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you not chase the deceased?

ANSWER: Yes I chased him but I ultimately returned.

<UNKNOWN>: : Have you seen your evidence?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Sukudu your evidence was to the effect thatyou stabbed him thrice, he ran away and you went to your base.
CHAIRMAN(?):: No didn't he say I was not able to catchhim?