Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if I may just clear up something, I'm not sure I heard the witness correctly, I'm reading from my note here, the witness made the concession "I accept or I concede that I was unjustified in firing when some of them were fleeing."

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I just want to go on where Mr van Wyk has led, you said that you were under the impression or that the crowd had charged forward, I'm talking now about the main incident at Shell House, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The crowd was charging forward, this is the picture I have in my mind but I'm saying it could be that some of them had turned because the ballistics says and the medical report.

MR HUMAN: Okay, I'm just referring you to the first group that you saw that was marching from West to East in front of Shell House.  You were then present at the corner of King George and Plein Street is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

MR HUMAN: If I look at page 39 of bundle C that is page number 3 of your affidavit, at paragraph number 13 you are giving a description of that crowd that was moving in front of Shell House.  You said the behaviour of these groups was wild and intimidating, they insulted the ANC personnel at Shell House, some carried out mock attacks, charging forward brandishing weapons and then retreating back into the group.  Is that still your view of that group's behaviour that passed Shell House?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes, that is still my view.

MR HUMAN: Now can you explain the difference between this group then and the one that you shot at in King George Street?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: This group that was doing this mock attacks had police escorts, had peace monitors and they did not shoot at us.

MR HUMAN: Did you give the crowd time in King George Street, the one that you fired on, to see whether they were just - the charge forward was not just a mock attack like the same these group done that passed Shell House in Plein Street?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes, the only difference with that crowd was that they fired in our direction, so if a person is shooting you, you have to repel, you cannot just give him a chance to see whether he's shooting you or not.

MR HUMAN: Thank you.  Just the last point - your instructions that day, were you to report everything that happened on the ground to Mr Gary Kruser or did you have a discretion that you had to use when you thought it was necessary?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: We had a duty to protect Shell House, that is first and foremost.  Secondly then we had specific instruction to go and do surveillance and report back to Gary but that does not mean that if people shoot at you, you mustn't shoot back, we must go and report to Gary because you might not even reach Gary when they are shooting at you.

MR HUMAN: At the incident when you and Eddie Khumalo were shot at why didn't you yourself react to that shot that has been fired to you?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: If you look at the map, this one here, you'll see that there are four, that is the corner - there are four directions one can look at so the way we operate, we don't look in one direction when we're being attacked, we have to look all over so I couldn't shoot at them facing the other direction, I had to look on the other side, if there was also an attack on the other side I was going to repel that one and was going to shoot that direction.  So there was no way I was going to face the same direction with Eddie, I had to cover his back and he had to cover my back.

MR HUMAN: Then just to come back to the shot that has been fired in your direction from the smaller group that you testified where the member of the SADF returned fire.  Why didn't you return fire there as well?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well they were a bit far away and this man from SADF fired so I saw no point - you see our intention was not about firing at people, we're not there about shooting, we're there to protect the building.  So I mean if someone has fired already, there was no reason when they're fleeing, there was no reason for me to carry on firing also at them.  We're not there about shooting.

MR HUMAN: But didn't you get the impression when this first shot was fired at you that you were under attack from that small group that was coming from west to east in Plein Street?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well, that was the impression but it was immediately repelled.

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further
questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUMAN

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, through you - Mr Zuma earlier in your evidence today you claim to be a traditional Zulu.  Have you ever attended an Imbiso on behalf of the King?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes.  Yes I've attended.

UNKNOWN: How are people clothed on that occasion?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Sorry, I didn't get that?

UNKNOWN: What clothes are people wearing at such an occasion?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: You wear any clothes, you just wear what you have.

UNKNOWN: Aren't there normally Zulus in traditional clothing?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: You will find those certain people who do have traditional clothing wearing them but it is not a must.

UNKNOWN: Would some people just go in ordinary private clothes?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes, as I did when I attended.

UNKNOWN: And as far as traditional weapons are concerned, would people normally brandish a lot of traditional weapons at such a gathering?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes they normally carry traditional weapons.

UNKNOWN: What is the significance of this.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well it's just a cultural thing that was carried, you know, by Zulus in the olden days.  Not much significance, no.

UNKNOWN: You talk about the olden days, are people still carrying these traditional weapons when they attend meetings of the King?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well they do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes - does everybody or those who choose not to carry don't carry?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes not everybody, those who choose not to carry, they don't carry.

UNKNOWN: On this specific day in question, the 28th March, did you see people wearing traditional clothing - sorry I mean traditional Zulu clothing?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman, amongst the marchers.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes there were some of them wearing traditional Zulu clothing.

UNKNOWN: Did you see people wearing IFP tee-shirts?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes I did see.

UNKNOWN: Which was the majority, would you say more people were wearing traditional Zulu clothing than IFP clothes?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well it was not my assignment on that day to monitor who was wearing what and who was in the majority and who was in the minority.

UNKNOWN: Why do you then refer to the marchers as IFP marchers, what made you believe it was an IFP march?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: There are various reasons, one of the reasons is that I heard through Radio 702 that Humphrey Nglovo was interviewed about the march, he was - I know he was instrumental in organising the march.  I know he was an official of the IFP and secondly I knew, I saw that day that they were wearing IFP tee-shirts and there were IFP flags.

UNKNOWN: Mr Humphrey Nglovo is as far as you know -isn't he also a Zulu?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He is a Zulu but I'm also a Zulu.

UNKNOWN: In which area in Natal did you grow up?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, in view of the fears of this witness in the light of the threats yesterday, is this relevant?  Mr Zuma has family.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I can actually - he doesn't need to answer that question to actually answer the question that I'm getting at.

CHAIRPERSON: I would rather you put questions that are really relevant to the present purposes of the Amnesty Hearing.