Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

MR HOLE: Mr Thoba, in amplifying your application I wish to ask you certain questions and I want to ask you to give your answers to the Committee.
	In the judgment given by the Regional Court Magistrate, Mr Maqubela, at page 5 of that judgment, relating to the assault on Miss Maqoma, she is recorded as having been electrocuted with electric wires among others, and was also trampled upon. Do you confirm that this is what was done and you took part in this?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is so.   I did have a hand in that, a lot.

MR HOLE: Thank you.  And in the same judgment Sir, relating again to the assault on these people, you in particular, are recorded as having brought a string with which this lady was tied up, this is at page 7 of the judgment, Mr Chairman,  and that a tube was place around the face of this lady.  Is this in fact correct?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: What page of the bundle is it? Oh it's not part of the bundle.
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MR HOLE: It is what the Committee through Mr Brink, prepared.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hole would that be under Annexure D of Mr Brink's prepared application?
SPEAKER'S MICROPHONE IS NOT ON

MR HOLE: May I continue, Mr Chairman?

HASSAN MALL: Please do.

MR HOLE: Thank you.  It is also recorded Sir, in the judgment of the court that a damp towel was used in suffocating these ladies and throttling them.  Is this in fact what took place?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes Sir, it is the truth.

MR HOLE: One of these ladies was at some stage ordered to lick the boots of one of the applicants, Mr Makom, and remove therefrom the blood that had flowed onto his boots.  Is this also what took place in your presence?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is the truth.

MR HOLE: The judgment, it is now bundle D, Mr Chairman, at page 9, it is recorded that there were burn marks on both breasts and burn marks on the thighs of Mrs Nomoy. I want to ask you was a cigarette used in torturing her?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Telephone wires were used to torture her.

MR HOLE: Thank you.  And at Bundle E, Mr Chairman,  at page 323, Mr Thoba you are recorded as having taken part in removing the pantihose of one of the complainants and forcing her to lie down as well as pulling her hair.  Is this what in fact you did?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is the truth.

MR HOLE: And you are also recorded as having mocked her and remarked, perhaps not so appropriately, about her private parts.  Is this also the truth?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is the truth.

MR HOLE: Still at page 324, Mr Chairman, at Bundle E, Mr Thoba, you are also reported to have used a plastic bag to cover the EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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face of the victim, thus causing her to suffocate.  Is this correct?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is the truth.

MR HOLE: And Mrs Nomoy, at page 325 of Bundle E was also poured over with water and a fan was switched on and placed next to her as she lay down on the ground.  Is this what took place?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes this is the truth.

MR HOLE: And that at page 326 of Bundle E, Mr Chairman, Mr Thoba you are also reported as having used a baton with which you hit her.   Is this correct?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes it is so.

MR HOLE: Lastly Mr Thoba, how do you feel about these things?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Today, I am very disappointed with myself.   This is very painful.  The deeds of torturing victims and this issue.   It is not what I did willingly, it was painful for me to do, but because of the circumstances at the time as the Ciskeian Police, if you did not do your job appropriately, so-to-speak, you would be detained.

MR HOLE: Are you aware of any member of the Security Police or the Elite Unit in particular who was detained and ended up being tortured?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes, Mr Mlungisi Ganda was one of the people who
were tortured by four captains.  They did not just torture him, he was charged with terrorism.  Those were the circumstances that we lived under.  Therefore a person like me was very sad because I was very low in the ranks, that was my fear, I had to do things that I did not like.

MR HOLE: Yes. And what rank did Mr Ganda hold in the Ciskei Police at the time of his arrest if you can recall?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: He was a Colonel.

MR HOLE: And do you know what happened to the officers who
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assaulted him?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: These captains who were torturing him got promoted in fact.   They were also taken to the court of law and were sentenced.  There was a presiding officer there, after he had sentenced them he lost his job but the captains were promoted.  They became majors.

SPEAKER'S MIKE NOT ON: What was the name of this gentleman? ...(indistinct)

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: It was Mr Ngoxo.
...(indistinct)

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes Sir.

MR HOLE: Do you know who paid the fines for these officers who assaulted Col Ganda?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: The State paid.

MR HOLE: Have you today spoken at all to any of the victims of these assaults?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes, I have spoken to Brig Simandla.   I was just asking after his health.   I was also trying to reflect repentance with the way I ill-treated him.  Mrs Msutwana, I wanted to greet her but I was too scared, because I feel ever so guilty for what I did.
	I request Brigadier, Mrs Msutwana, Mrs Nomoy, won't you please forgive me?   I ask for forgiveness for the deeds.  
You must recall that the cause of all this was the Government of the day.

MR HOLE: I see that you are also Sir, applying for amnesty in respect of Miss Maqoma and I understand that in the trial that you faced you were acquitted in respect of the assault on her.  Can you tell the Committee why are you now asking for amnesty in respect of her as well when you were in fact acquitted of the deeds?
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KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: I am asking Lindela Maqoma for forgiveness because she is one of the victims even though I was acquitted in court, I am merely feeling guilty and I am asking the Committee here to forgive me as well.

MR HOLE: Mr Chairman, that terminates the questions I wish to ask from the applicant.

MR HOLE: .

HASSAN MALL: Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put
to the applicant?

MR BRINK: .

MR BRINK: Yes please, Mr Chairman	Mr Thoba in your original application for amnesty and here I am referring, Mr Chairman, to paragraph 11(B) you indicated that the complainants with whom you were involved were detained following the orders of Col Panzi.  That is correct?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes Sir, that is so.

MR BRINK: Did the orders come directly to you from Col Panzi or did they come from one of your superiors who was below Col Panzi?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: These orders were from Col Panzi directly.

MR BRINK: He gave no instructions to torture people, did he?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: He did.

MR BRINK: Will you tell me what those instructions were?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: He said that I must visit the detainees.   And I must endeavour to get the truth from them.   If I did not get the truth I must beat them up.  The aim was to get the truth.

MR BRINK: I do not want for the purpose the decency in this Committee to repeat what has already been said by you, but I suggest to you that no one would have given you an order to treat these women in the most appalling and disgusting and inhuman manner that you did.  Revolting!
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KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes, Sir I did, but I was given orders.  This is the way the Ciskeian Police conducted themselves.

MR BRINK: All of them?  Are you saying that the Ciskeian Police all behaved or would have behaved in the manner you behaved?