Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you a question or two about Brigadier van der Hoven.  As I understand it the decision to eliminate Mxenge was conveyed to you by him.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that to mean that it was in fact his decision, or did you understand that he was conveying to

CHAIRPERSON: /you a decision

CHAIRPERSON: you a decision taken by somebody else?

WITNESS:   I understood it as conveying to me a decision that was taken

CHAIRPERSON: by headquarters, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, do you know who he was accountable to?

WITNESS:   He was accountable to - directly to Brigadier Jan du Preez, who was the senior staff officer of general Jan Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that it would seem that Jan du Preez would be the one that would instruct van der Hoven?

WITNESS:  That's correct, Mr Chairman, and I can 100% sure accept that it would be with the consent and after discussion with General Johan Coetzee and even higher.

UNKNOWN: Who was higher than General Johan Coetzee, Mr Coetzee?

WITNESS:   General Johan Coetzee as Security Chief served under the direct - or in his next direct line of command was the Commissioner of Police, who was General Mike Geldenhuys at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your impression that each time instructions were given to you by Brigadier van der Hoven he was merely conveying a decision taken by his superiors?

WITNESS:   I accept that, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it ever told to you by him that these are not his decisions, but he is merely conveying decisions taken by others?

WITNESS:   Never discussed.  As I said, as a result of the need-to-know chain I was only told what I need to know, and no questions - I never questioned the hierarchy, how far up was the instructions agreed to, up til what level.  Never.

CHAIRPERSON: So when whatever was requested of you was accomplished would you convey that to somebody higher than Brigadier van der Hoven, or would you ... (intervention)  	/---   No, Mr

CHAIRPERSON: ---   No, Mr Chairman, I would only report to my section head, Brigadier Skoon.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Coetzee, I don't have a clear picture of your personal movements that evening.

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't have a clear picture of your personal movements of the evening when Mr Mxenge was killed.

WITNESS:  I was just roaming around town, as all the other guys, having the odd drink, visiting the other - my other colleagues who were not in discos or whatever, because we were basically there to be called on if needed by the askaris if they ran into trouble or picked up anyone.  So I was driving around Durban having the odd drink.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you had a standing arrangement with them that in the event of a need they should get in touch with you?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In what way?  On radio?

WITNESS:   I beg your - no, I don't think at the time they had a radio in their bakkie, but by coming to C R Swart Square, where I frequently rendezvoused, or meeting at the pub which I should have rendezvoused at eight, nine and 10 at night, but that night I only went there at 10 o'clock.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But if you were driving around between various points how would they be - how would they know exactly where to find you?

WITNESS:   To wait for - when in need they should just go back to C R Swart Square Police Station.  There was always some of the other policemen present there, and everyone usually knew in what area or where the other guys were.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What was envisaged if they ran into problems?   I want to get a picture of this arrangement between you and

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /them, because

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: them, because I don't think that you were completely

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: detached from the operation.

WITNESS:   I - I ... (incomplete)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In what way would you have been of assistance to them, for example?  What were the details of the arrangement between you and them?

WITNESS:   If they ran into personal trouble, where they needed to use their - they were all - well, not all, there were policemen amongst themselves of the black colleagues, and then sort it out as it be needed at the moment, and then as soon as possible afterwards then trace me, or, if it was one of the other teams, their white colleagues in the cars to get hold of me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, for you to do what, for example?

WITNESS:   Well, to then decide on the matter and how it should be sort of dealt with.  Was it a shooting incident that took place then I would have reported immediately to Brigadier van der Hoven.  For instance if it was an illegal shooting, or at a shebeen a quarrel broke out where they visited, and they got drunk perhaps, and then with his help then sort it out.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was it in fact not envisaged that you could provide a back up for them?

WITNESS:   If necessary yes, and, as I say, later on we did get radios into all vehicles, but at the time we as yet had not had radios to operate with.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And if there was to be a possibility of a confrontation with the local police you would have intervened one way or another?

WITNESS:   I would have.  They would have identified themselves and said who they were, they were here with Security, and they should contact me, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So in the end what you are saying is that you parted 	/with them

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: with them at - where?  At the office of Mr Mxenge, when they were observing the office?

WITNESS:   I only pointed it

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: out, and we departed from C R Swart Square Police Station during the morning and in the evening.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, no, I am talking about the evening in question.

WITNESS:   I last left them after our afternoon briefing after 4 o'clock, when they went to town and to observe Mr Mxenge, and I went my way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When next did you meet them?

WITNESS:   The first time 10 o'clock that night.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: After they had already committed their foul deed?

WITNESS:   After they had already committed the murder, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, just another question.  Do you know anything about Trevitz?

WITNESS:   Not at all, and it did not exist in my time, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Were there anybody or responsible persons for identifying targets?

WITNESS:   Not what I knew of.  Not to my knowledge, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: So you don't know how Mr Mxenge was identified as a target?

WITNESS:   No, I don't the exact procedure, no.

MR DE JAGER: And you don't know by whom.

WITNESS:   No, I would - no, I can't name the exact persons.  That Brigadier van der Hoven and Andy Taylor I am sure would be able to give this Commission, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: And on the facts and surrounding circumstances you came to the conclusion that people higher up would know about it.

WITNESS:   Absolutely, and it is proved ever since in ... (intervention)

MR DE JAGER: You never discussed it with people higher up than van der Hoven or Skoon?

WITNESS:   And Brigadier Jan

MR DE JAGER: /du Preez,

MR DE JAGER: du Preez, for instance during the reward money with the

MR DE JAGER: for the murder, and at the stage - at an occasion I was also instructed to get rid of Marius Skoon in Botswana, but that operation was stopped at No 99, and Brigadier Jan du Preez walked into Brigadier Skoon's office whilst I was making final preparations and say, "The operation is called off.  The general has stopped it."  And it later proved that they were already busy with a parcel bomb that they prepared for Marius Skoon, which eventually exploded in Luanda and killed his wife and child.