Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What did you say when you heard about the Red Sea?  What is the Red Sea?  There was a dam there where people were being killed, the one witness told us that yesterday.
 Do you have any idea where it started?

MR NDIMA: No, it was not close to my place.  It was in this area in Section 4, I don't know, I heard about it.  Now listen the six that wanted to see me, that came to kill me because I beat comrades, it was said that they should be arrested because they were going to be killed that evening, but then I made a plan.
 Because deep down in me, I felt I wish that Black persons wouldn't kill another Black person.  So I asked for a key from a police person and then I went there. When I got there, I opened, I said young boys, do you know the Chawe that you wanted to visit, they were in a car and the car was left at my place, then they were taken to this prison and they were locked up there.
 I said to you know the Chawe that you wanted to see, they said no, we didn't.  We come from Worcester and Paarl.  So I said oh, my kids, this is sad, you are going to be murdered tonight because of looking for Chawe.
 I am Chawe my children and this is the plan I am going to make.  Behind this prison there is this Coloured area, it is close to an Coloured area, this is what you should do.
 I am going to open one of the corrugated iron sheets and make a hole there, then you just push, just push it an run away.  The skip over here and then go this way and then report that you haven't seen Chawe.  Indeed I loosened this iron sheet.  When the came in the evening to fetch them, they didn't find those six boys.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So in other words you were trying to stop death?  Now in your committees were you not talking about people that have been killed, about people who had been thrown in the dam?

MR NDIMA: They never told me anything, anything that pertained to injuries or death because I didn't, I wanted, but I did hear about this dam that there were people who will get hit and then they run to the dam and then they get killed at the dam there.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yesterday Mr Veneni was here with a girl whose name was Ruth.  They were telling us about Mr Veneni's son's death together with Vioani Geobase, do you know the people who killed those two boys because there is evidence that they were locked up in that jail?

MR NDIMA: They couldn't tell me something like that.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you don't know it?

MR NDIMA: No, I don't know.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Another young man, Mr Sqwela's son, do you know Mr Sqwela?

MR NDIMA: No, I don't know.  Maybe if I see him, I may know him.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay, let's pass that one.  Just short questions.  Mrs (indistinct) she said yesterday that these police were policemen who were marching, she said they were really marching.
 Did you ever take rounds and patrol the squatter camps?

MR NDIMA: Yes, we did have patrols and these policemen would be there.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You would patrol with the police?

MR NDIMA: Yes.  No, our policemen, not the government police.  They would patrol with us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Do you know their names?

MR NDIMA: Most of them.  They are now of Ngxobongwana's side.  I don't know if they are still there or not.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What was the name used to call this police?  In the language, what ...

MR NDIMA: No, they were just called police. The ones who were guarding us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Just one of my final question.  We heard that there was a policeman from the government policemen who accidentally shot a "witdoek", do you remember that incident?  Did he shoot a "witdoek" by mistake?

MR NDIMA: No, I don't know that one.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: At that time there was a fight, or in May 1986, at Toyise's camp, there is information that a government policeman who aimed a gun and accidentally shot a "witdoek" and that was pushed under the carpet, that was not publicised?

MR NDIMA: I think some of the events that happened, were not brought to my attention because some of the things, especially things that were wayward and wrong, because I don't like wrong things.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now things there were things that we heard that old men would be taken to places like Rhodesia when it was called Rhodesia, do you know anything?

MR NDIMA: No, they are laying, those people I know.  There is nothing that could be done without my knowledge.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But they would kill and not tell you?

MR NDIMA: But someone who was going to leave, I must know where each one has gone to.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But that is finally, the funeral parlour at your squatter camp, who was in charge of the funeral parlour?

MR NDIMA: Where about there?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Wasn't there a, is there no funeral parlour there, are there no undertakers?  You know these places where they keep ...

MR NDIMA: No, we don't have a funeral parlour, no, we don't.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I mean at that time, wasn't there one at that time?

MR NDIMA: No, I never saw it.  No, no, I don't remember it.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Finally, finally sir, that policeman who was called Du Toit, do you know Du Toit?

MR NDIMA: Flip du Toit, Flip du Toit?  The people mostly I didn't know their names.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Schelhase?

MR NDIMA: Schelhase, I know Schelhase.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: To what extent did he help you?

MR NDIMA: Schelhase was helping Ngxobongwana, he was not helping us.  Schelhase was helping Ngxobongwana.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: How?

MR NDIMA: Everything, guns, he was giving them guns.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you sir.  Thank you.

MR NDIMA: Have you no more questions?

CHAIRPERSON: There are no more questions, but we will ask Mr Ntsebeza to make a closing remarks and to thank you for coming,.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much Mr Ndima.  The only thing that the Commission wants - it is not to press charge against people that is not our duty, this is not a court of law.  We are not placing any charge against any one.
 The only thing that the Commission wants as we are being asked by the country, is to help to investigate the truth.  We don't just investigate the truth, we want it to make this country a reconciliated one.
 In so much that we can all live together in peace whether we like it or not.  One of the most important things or the difficult things, it is because our leaders do come and go.  And one of the aims of the Commission is to find out and say to the President of this country and the whole Parliament, the things that have happened must not happen again.
 The way you have given us your evidence, more especially where you are drawing us a picture that the matter has also reached Pretoria, it was Pretoria that was giving instructions to the policemen, it was policemen in Pretoria who gave instructions to you when you were fighting, when you have killed someone, take their weapon.
 That shows us clearly that they were causing conflict amongst Black people.  We do have witness, we know what they did to you, they were also sending informers on the other side as they have done in the Guguletu boys, they sent informers on their side and they had to fight each other.
 Even Yamile must have realised that today because it is clear that they were hesitating when some people come saying I am from those Freedom Fighters and all along the White people are involved.  So it was not a right thing that happened during those days, but we are not here to lay charges against, we want to see what happened afterwards.
 The killings of people were things that were just made but this thing has roots.  The White people were being on the side of the government and the White government has its own agenda.  Thank you very much.