Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MR HOCKEY: What is also quite evident is that all the people that were inside that building, all the members of the Cape Youth Congress, says that that bomb went off roundabout half past eight?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I saw that.

MR HOCKEY: You are also aware that the people that had nothing to do with the Cape Youth Congress, and there were three of them that made statements, there were five of them present in the building that evening, the three that made statements all say that the bomb went off roundabout the same time as those, as the time said by, given by the Cape Youth Congress members?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Maybe.

MR HOCKEY: You accept that the soccer people have absolutely no reason to lie about this fact?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR HOCKEY: I don't have to refer you, I hope, to what they say about the time factor, you accept and you have probably seen their statements?  There are three statements and just for record purposes, I will name those people.  It is one Terrence Coetzee,   and his statement appears in Bundle B, page 233.  There is one called Jeffrey Blignaut, whose statement appears on page 235 in Bundle B, and there is one Wallace Jonathan Steven, whose statement appears on page 14 of Bundle D, D for David, all saying that the bomb went of roundabout 20H35?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have seen their statements.

MR HOCKEY: Just one other aspect that I want to clear up with you, Mr van Zyl.   You gave evidence yesterday and today that the car was parked and you showed us yesterday, the car was parked about 30, it was measured off yesterday, it seems to be 42 paces, 42 metres from the gate of the Early Learning Centre?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was probably a little bit less than 42 metres, because the steps taken, probably didn't amount to a metre, 42 paces, we all saw it and we won't be exact about how many metres it was, 42 paces.

MR HOCKEY: We will keep at 42 paces, about 42 paces from the gate of the parking area of the Early Learning Centre?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: You were standing there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: You tried to detonate the bomb, unsuccessfully?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: And you reversed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR HOCKEY: After you had reversed about one car length, the bomb in fact exploded?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: What I want to know is why you never stated this in any of your statements?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know if it is in my statements or not, but this is what happened.

MR HOCKEY: Please, if it is there, please we will give you the opportunity to go through, I can tell you that I searched for it last night and I couldn't find it there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is good, accept my evidence as I had given it to you.

MR HOCKEY: I ask you again, why is it not there?  It is an important factor, why did you not state in your statements that you were standing and that you reversed about one car length before the bomb detonated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot explain that.

MR HOCKEY: In fact sir, you say something quite to the contrary in your statements.  You are saying that you asked Gakkie to drive around the block and it is quite clear from your statements that while he was driving, the bomb was detonated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is not so.

MR HOCKEY: Are you denying that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR HOCKEY: Are you denying that that, are you saying that that is not in your statements?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, in my statement it is written that we were standing still and it is my evidence that we were standing still when the bomb was detonated.

MR HOCKEY: Where in your statements, is that?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think there has been a bit of confusion, we have heard what you said in your evidence, Mr van Zyl, that the car was parked, you reversed one car length back and it went off, but I think, correct me if I am wrong, Mr Hockey, what Mr Hockey is putting to you is that if one reads your statements, the impression given from the wording used there is that you asked  Gakkie to drive around the block, whilst so doing, that is when the bomb went off, which is different to having been parked and reversed one car length back and then detonate it?  He says that doesn't appear in the statements, but what appears in the statements is that you told, after you tried to use the detonator, you told Gakkie to drive around the block and in the process of doing that, the bomb was activated?  That is what is being put to you by Mr Hockey and he is saying there is a difference?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think it is interpreted incorrectly.  No driving had taken place when the bomb was activated, we were parked.

MR HOCKEY: Let me refer you to Bundle B, Mr van Zyl, page 42.   Can you for a change read for me, the last sentence on that page?
MR VAN ZYL
"... I then told Gakkie to drive around the block, so that I could activate the mine."
	That exact question was asked of me yesterday.   The block that I was referring to then, was the block that I had pointed out to the honourable Commission.

MR HOCKEY: Yes, I have no problem with the block for now, I have a different meaning of what a block is, or a different understanding, but the fact remains that you say here in your statement that you were driving around the block in order for you to detonate the bomb.  Please just read further.
MR VAN ZYL
"... I had the remote control calculator in my hand, I tried to activate the mine by switching on the calculator and pressing the minus button, the mine actually did not explode.  After I had repeated the process a few times, I gave the calculator to Calla Botha.  We were then approximately 150 metres away from the hall, and I told Gakkie to drive closer to the building, and he did that.  When we were approximately 20 to 25 metres from the building, I noticed that there were no vehicles or people in the parking area.  Calla Botha then activated the mine and it went off."

MR HOCKEY: Now sir, you see what I mean?  You explain your movement that evening, at no stage do you say that you went to go and stand at a particular point, you tried to detonate the bomb unsuccessfully, and you reversed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, sir, it is a Section 29 statement.  I don't have a big problem with it, but the evidence that I have given in front of the Commission, is the way in which it happened.  That is what I was asked to do and that is what I have done.  So whether you like it or not ...

MR HOCKEY: Sir, when you are in a difficult position, your excuse is always that it is a Section 29 statement?  I can also refer you to page 113 which is ...

CHAIRPERSON: The same Bundle?

MR HOCKEY: Sorry, Bundle A, which is the statement that the accompanies your application.  Can you please read from line seven from the bottom, "I then told Isgak ..."?
MR VAN ZYL
"... I then told Isgak to drive around the street block, so that the mine could activate.  The mine was then activated after that, and the bomb went off.  Isgak then took us back to the airport."

MR HOCKEY: You see, exactly the same thing?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My explanation is exactly the same.

MR HOCKEY: Good.   I see Mr Hardien is here, and I would like to ask you a few questions in his presence.   You decided in 1990 that you were going to come up with the truth, is that right?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR HOCKEY: According to you?  You have subsequently been used as a State witness in the case against Mr Ferdi Barnard, somebody that worked closely with you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR HOCKEY: And with your assistance, Mr Ferdi Barnard was convicted.  With the assistance of your evidence, Mr Ferdi Barnard was convicted, is that right?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Maybe.

MR HOCKEY: You also gave evidence in the trial of Dr Wouter Basson?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.