Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I looked very quickly at the sketch map or plan, I noticed that if you entered the door, there was a window on your right.  Are there any other windows in that first room where you were sitting?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, when you enter the door, there is one on your right and one directly on your left.  If you turn left, there is a window right on your left.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where the table was situated?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: To your left?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, perhaps I should just have a look at that sketch because we are definitely not understanding each other.  Okay, I see now, I missed that the first time.
	Okay, when one enters at the door, there is a window on one's right and there is a window in the wall on one's left as one enters the door, immediately in that wall.  So indeed according to this sketch, there are two windows in the guard house.
	Can I just ask you, here where the table is situated, there is a thick line which probably represents a wall, then there is a thinner line, there were the table itself is situated, what is that?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: If I could explain to you, if you look at the sketch, if you enter the door and you turn directly left, where the table is situated, there is a door in that wall, leading to another room, so there was another room there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I understand that.  If the, well, let me state it this way, Mr Terreblanche, was his back also to the window which is on your right if you enter at the door?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So if a person were to look from the outside, through the window in the right hand wall, the wall to the right of the door, the person would have seen the two of you sitting there with your backs towards them, looking at the television set?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you wearing uniforms?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, we were wearing uniforms.

CHAIRPERSON: But not with your caps on?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't remember whether my cap was on, but we normally had the caps off on the table.

CHAIRPERSON: While you were sitting watching TV?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of uniform was it?   What type of police uniform was it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It was the new type, the blue uniform, the dark blue.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you.  Mr Coetzee?

MR COETZEE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Swart, the distance from the door to the chair where you were seated before the actions that took place there, that would be approximately one and a half metres?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it sounds close to the correct distance.

MR COETZEE: And the way you remember the events, you suddenly saw a movement at the door?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct yes.

MR COETZEE: And then you suddenly saw people enter the room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: It is not a matter of them coming in there quite slowly, it was a matter of wiping out your eyes and suddenly see them there?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it was like blinking.

MR COETZEE: It would take a second or so to cover the one and a half metres to get to you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And the first thing then, you saw a person coming right next to you, well, moving passed you and then in fact coming to stand behind you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: You also saw a revolver in his hand?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Was he holding the revolver in his left or his right hand?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, you are asking me to recall.  As far as I can remember, it was his right hand.

MR COETZEE: Would it be fair to say he was standing right behind you or where was he standing relative to you when he took position?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Well, relative to myself, I would say it is diagonally behind me.

MR COETZEE: To your left?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And up till now, as you can remember, the firearm barrel was aimed at the left hand side of your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Well, that would have meant that the person would have been standing in essence with his whole body to your left and his right hand pointing at your body or at your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You yourself are right handed, and you yourself also wore you pistol on your right hip?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: While you were trying to take the pistol from your holster on your right hip, I would assume you were looking at it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I could have possibly looked, but one knew where one's pistol was situated.

MR COETZEE: Yes, but it is possible that you could have looked?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it is possible.

MR COETZEE: So, it is possible that you wouldn't have been looking at the person standing to the left, behind you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Okay, you must understand, I didn't grab for my pistol or reached for my pistol when he was with me.  It was when the people were standing at the door, when they said we must remove our firearms.
	As a consequence when they said we must leave our firearms alone, I didn't try to touch it when they were moving closer.

MR COETZEE: That is not the way I understood it, you said when you were watching television, you looked to the left, you saw the people at the door, it was a matter of one and a half seconds, and the people were in essence next to you.
	Would you say that in this one and a half seconds, this conversation would have taken place?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I didn't say that within one and a half seconds of them appearing at the door, they were suddenly with us.  They appeared in the door, they said we must sit still, we mustn't do stupid things, they said remove your firearms or remove the cartridges, or whatever, that couldn't happen in one and a half seconds.
	They first spoke to us.

MR COETZEE: So they first spoke to you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR COETZEE: And then after they had spoken, they moved into the room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: This one and a half to two second indication that you gave when I asked whether it was the time it would have taken for them to cover that distance to you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is the sort of time it would have taken.

MR COETZEE: And from the time that the person who stood to the left behind you, did you at any time turn around to look him in the face?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, when he was standing there, I looked at the revolver, and I could have looked at his face as well.

MR COETZEE: But your focus would have been to your left, to the revolver which he was pointing at your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR COETZEE: And at that stage, your attention would have been seriously divided between his face and the firearm?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct, one could state it as such, yes.

MR COETZEE: Can you in any way remember or recall how the person to the left behind you, would have moved at the stage when he took the firearm from your holster on your right hip?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I don't understand clearly.

MR COETZEE: Well, he was standing to the left behind you, and the firearm was taken from your right side.  How did he move, can you remember?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't remember.

MR COETZEE: You don't know whether he moved across your front or across your back?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Well, it must have been behind me, because he wouldn't have moved in front of me.

MR COETZEE: So all that you are aware of is that somebody was taking the firearm from your holster on your right hip?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And you looked down and saw how he removed it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't remember looking and seeing how he removed it.  I can't remember that honestly.