Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: Can you think of any reason why you would have wanted to shoot him?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I can think of no reason.

ADV VISSER: He was dying in any event?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is what I thought.  I thought he looked very, very bad.

ADV VISSER: Were any Defence Force people around?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes.  There were people.  I remember how Mr Erwee told these people to move back.  And I think that is when the Medic came to inject this person.
	There were quite a few people around.

ADV VISSER: Now, this Medic, was he a Black man?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, I remember him as a Black man.

ADV VISSER: Were there other Black Defence Force members in the vicinity?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, there were.

ADV VISSER: Can you think of any reason why Matthews have told the story about you?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It was an incredible shock for me when I heard this the first time, that my name was linked with the shooting incident.

ADV VISSER: When did you hear it for the first time?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Perhaps before I answer that, I want to say to the Commission or to the Committee, that Matthews and I mention him by name, we worked together for about eight years.  We worked on the same floor of the same building.  We were on very good terms, not only the two of us, but I was on good terms with all my Black colleagues and I think my advantage was that I could speak their language.
	I have absolutely no idea why Matthews said such a thing.

ADV VISSER: When did you hear this story for the first time?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I think about two months ago when Mr Erwee came to me and said Tokkie, I have bad news for you.   There is an investigating team and he mentioned the names of the members, Captain De Lange, Mr Ivor Human who were busy doing an investigation and that they had mentioned my name and said that I had eliminated this person at the scene.

ADV VISSER: How has it effected you and your family, this allegation?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: We have all been shocked.  My wife is very sensitive and she is not taking this well.  I told her that she should just take a week's leave for this week's proceedings, because she is really distraught.
	She can't believe that her husband could have done something like that.

ADV VISSER: Where does she work?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: She works for the police at the Commissioner building for the past 13 years.

ADV VISSER: Do you Mr Fuchs, feel that you have done anything wrong or acted outside the scope of your orders as a policeman and the specific instructions which you had to carry out that day?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No.  I don't believe that I have done anything wrong.

ADV VISSER: Why are you appearing here to ask for amnesty?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I have been following the press and the media reports fairly closely this past times, and it was made very clear on television, in the newspapers that if you had any doubt as to whether you should apply for amnesty, you should apply and Archbishop Desmond Tutu also said that very same thing a couple of times.
	You must ask for amnesty if you think that you possibly did something wrong and if you have any doubt in your heart, then you must apply and when Colonel Erwee came to me and said there was an investigation under way, I felt that I hadn't done anything wrong and that is why I came to ask for amnesty.

ADV VISSER: One last aspect Mr Fuchs, after these events of the 10th of July, some of these security people went to a farm and I am not sure, but I think they overnighted there?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.  I also slept there that night.

ADV VISSER: And that night after the events, you ate there and you had a braai?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And Matthews Sehlwana said that you poured some beer over his head and said something to him?
	According to him, you said to him that he wouldn't get any promotion or something to that effect?  It is not particularly important what was said.   What happened there that night between yourself and Matthews?  Could you please tell the members?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It is a very long time ago.
	What I can remember is that we stood in the kitchen.  We were preparing the meat in the kitchen.  I know I was in the kitchen, Matthews came to me and I said to him, you did good work, but as to throwing anything over his head, I don't know.
	Perhaps what I can mention to the Committee, is the fact that we have been debating this issue, this past week and Superintendent Joggie Kruger said to me, Tokkie, do you know what you have done?  You were busy drinking your drink and you were mixing your ice.

ADV VISSER: With your finger?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, with my finger.  I do that all the time and when he entered, coincidentally at that time, I just flicked some ice and water at him, saying to him, you did good work.
	I can't even remember that, that is what one of my colleagues told me.

ADV VISSER: Chairperson, that is all as far as this witness is concerned, thank you.

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Fuchs, what I find very significant is that Matthews, Mr Sehlwana's recollection of events coincides very significantly with what you have testified here up to a point and I will mention the specific incidents to you.
	The fact that you did the questioning, that was also said in his statement.  The fact that you asked the question where did you come from, that was mentioned by him whilst Captain Erwee wasn't even aware of that.
	The fact that you crouched over this wounded person and that is what Mr Sehlwana also testified, that there was a tape recorder involved, he also testified as to that.  And then the next evidence from his side is that a shot was fired by you.  
You say you can't explain why he would have added that.   There is absolutely no reason?  You can't advance any reason?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Well, Chairperson I can't see why he said that, because I didn't shoot this person.  I never fired a shot.

MR ROSSOUW: Would there have been any reason for him why he would like to implicate you in this manner?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I have no idea.

MR ROSSOUW: Your relationship with him seems to have been a fairly friendly one, according to your evidence?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, at all times.

MR ROSSOUW: Still?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, absolutely.

MR ROSSOUW: So, you would agree with me that there seems to be absolutely no reason why he would want to implicate you?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I can't understand why he does it.

MR ROSSOUW: I want you to listen very carefully to what I am going to put to you.  If you assume for a moment that a person, I am not saying you, that a person had in that situation shot the wounded person, the wounded MK person, on your evidence that would have been murder?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, it would have been murder.

MR ROSSOUW: Such action, if it had taken place, would no longer have added anything to the achievement of the objective with which the whole operation had been planned.  Such conduct shooting the person, the wounded person, would no longer have formed part of the overall objective which had been planned for that day?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No it would not have served any purpose to shoot that person.

MR ROSSOUW: Because the planning was to arrest them?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Would you agree with me that such conduct would also not have been committed with any political objective in mind?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: If I understand you correctly, I am not quite sure about the question...