Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Please, I appeal to you to remember we are going to take this step by step, as painful as it may be to you.
What did Mr Siebert do after Mr Biko staggered back.  You say punches were administered.  Who administered punches on Mr Biko before Mr Beneke came in?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I cannot recall who hit what when, but there certainly, in the scuffle, there would have been punches administered.

GEORGE BIZOS: Administered by whom at whom?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been by Capt Siebert who took the first action against the man.

GEORGE BIZOS: Against who is the man that he took first action against?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been the detainee.

GEORGE BIZOS: He has a name, Mr Biko.

MR SNYMAN: Mr Biko, that is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that we now have established that before Mr Beneke came in, Mr Siebert punched Mr Biko.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What part of his face or body did he strike him?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot tell you specifically, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it his face that was struck before Mr Beneke came in?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: When we have this shiner above his eye, is that how that injury came about?

MR SNYMAN: No, Your Honour, I cannot answer that, because I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many punches did Mr Siebert throw?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to say, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please tell us how many punches Mr Siebert threw before Mr Beneke came into the room?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it is not possible for me to tell you, I do not know, I cannot recall that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you recall that he was punched and you would recall that he was punched by Mr Siebert on a number of occasions.
	Please try and remember on how many occasions Mr Siebert punched Mr Biko before Mr Beneke came in?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, Mr Beneke entered the room very shortly thereafter, since he had heard the scuffle.  It would have been a matter of seconds and he was in the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Within that period, however long or short it may have been;  how many blows did Mr Siebert administered against the body of Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot say, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You spoke in the plural.  It must have been more than one.

MR SNYMAN: That is possible, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And we know that there was, I can think of the Afrikaans word only, because it's used in the papers, a "geweldige aanval" on his face and there was a cut lip.
	Can you say whether those two prominent injuries were administered by Mr Siebert before Mr Beneke came in or as Mr Beneke was coming in?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I would say that that occurred during the scuffle when the other men also joined in.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Let us see.  Who else threw punches at Mr Biko's body before he fell?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, when Mr Beneke joined in, as well as officers Niewoudt and Marx, at that point the fight started, the effort to restrain him.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm talking about the punches.  Who else, besides Mr Siebert, punched Mr Biko before he fell?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, there were punches dealt out, administered left and right.  I cannot recall where - who hit whom.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Siebert throw punches at Mr Biko?  You have already told us that.  Did Mr Niewoudt throw punches at Mr Biko before he fell?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that in the fight punches were dealt out or administered, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Before Mr Biko fell, did Mr Niewoudt throw punches at Mr Biko, yes or no?

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, with respect, the witness have said it's possible.  To expect he must say yes or no in the
circumstances is hardly fair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I think you should remember that it has occurred 20 years ago and maybe some allowance must be made for that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If he does not have a detailed ball-by-ball recollection of what happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm not expecting that, Mr Chairman, but I am entitled, with respect, to say when I say to him in that Mr Siebert threw punches and how many and he says there were others that threw punches as well;  I am entitled, with respect, to try and determine who were the others that threw punches. I am not going to insist that I should have a precise account, but the identity of the person that threw punches, is of the absolute importance.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, there's no doubt about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no doubt.  As long as you don't ask him who threw how many punches and give us an account of each one and where the punch landed ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That kind of cross-examination is not really ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I merely want to know the identity of the persons
who threw punches at Mr Biko before he fell.  He told as that Mr Siebert did so.  When I asked you how many, you said I don't know many he threw, but that there were others as well.  I want to know who the others were that threw punches at Mr Biko before he fell. Was it Mr Niewoudt?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, in the fight it was Cpt Siebert, Mr Niewoudt, as well as Mr Beneke.  It is possible, as I have told you, I cannot recall who hit what.  With respect, as your Honour have said, this was 20 years ago.  I am not able to recall this.

GEORGE BIZOS: As you stand there, you recall Mr Beneke and Mr Niewoudt throwing punches and that is what you mean that they took part in the fight.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That was part of the fight, your Honour.  In the attempt to restrain Mr Biko.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we're going to come to the other parts.  We are talking about the throwing of punches.  Did Mr Niewoudt and Mr Beneke throw punches at Mr Biko before he fell?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that is possible, but I am not able to say.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you able to say whether anybody did not punch Mr Biko?  Can you recollect of somebody who did not punch Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, Mr Marx and myself were in the background.  The scuffle were between the other men and Mr Biko in the effort to restrain him.

GEORGE BIZOS: That means that you and Marx as far as you can remember, did not throw punches?  Is that what you're saying?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: But the others must have done, once you have made that distinction.  Why do you remember, I can understand you yourself that you kept out of it.  You can remember Mr Marx not doing it.  Does that not mean that the others must have of necessity or highly probably joined in in punching Mr Biko?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it follows, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I will leave it there. From what door did Mr Beneke come?  Did he come from 617 or 621?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I cannot tell from which office he came, but he did hear the  - he did hear what happened and then he entered the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wasn't, which door was - had a grille on leading to 619?  Was the grille, that you've manacled Mr Biko in, between 617 and 619 or 619 and 621?  Which one did you manacle him on?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been in room 609.

CHAIRPERSON: It's possible that the witness said 619, but the
interpreter could not hear clearly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, 619; was it the door between 619 and 617 or 619 and 621?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it would have been from the passage to room 619.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that door not - did that door have a grille on?  The door between 621 and 619, did that have a ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: No, M'Lord, he referred to the - he said the "gang", the passage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Don't you agree that there is no door.  I think we have already agreed that there is no door from 619 directly onto the passage.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, can you enter the room 619 from the passage?

GEORGE BIZOS: Directly from the passage?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.