Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned yesterday the legal representatives of the implicated persons were about to commence cross-examining Mr Dandala. Mr Dandala may I remind you that you are still under oath to speak the truth.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Would you please try and speak Sir. Yes very well. Have you gentlemen decided who is going to go first?

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman I will be starting.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record Mr Wessels would you just indicate on whose behalf you are acting.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman I am representing General Kawe, the implicated person in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Inspector Dandala you would have noticed that General Kawe has been attending these proceedings and he is also presently in attendance.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Now I am representing General Kawe and I am instructed in this matter by my attorney, Mr Herbert. What I just want to mention to you is that our only interest in this matter is to deal with the evidence which you gave implicating General Kawe. We are not here to either support or oppose your amnesty application. Do you understand that.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I understand that.

MR WESSELS: Would you kindly refer to page 13 of the bundle of documents? What you have in front of you is part of your founding affidavit supporting your application for amnesty. That is page 13 of the documents. I am not hearing a reply.

INTERPRETER: There is no answer as yet.

CHAIRPERSON: You do have the bundle in front of you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I do have the bundle in front of me.

MR WESSELS: Thank you. Now as I understand your evidence what is contained in this founding affidavit is in fact the truth.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR WESSELS: On page 13 at paragraph 30, that is the very last paragraph it is stated
"The Umtata head office instructed us to come back and we did so."
Now just in the context this is now after the shooting incident and after you had reported to the gentleman there at Elliot. That is following that, that you state as is set out in paragraph 30.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir, it was after the incident.

MR WESSELS: Now what is stated in paragraph 30 is that the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Dir.

MR WESSELS: Would you kindly turn to page 21 of the bundle of documents? This appears to be a typed statement by yourself. It is not the original document but it is a typed statement which is dated the 10th of May 1997. Do you agree?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

MR WESSELS: And what is contained in this document, this statement which starts on page 19 to 21 is this also the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I have said yesterday the first statement there was a lot of cover-ups in the first statement. It does not look the same as the affidavit because of the cover-ups. Some of the things are written by hand and later typed and the typed thing would come with additions also including things that do not appear there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dandala please confine yourself to the question that you are being asked. What Mr Wessels is asking you about it is the statement which appears at pages 19 through to 21 which is dated the 10th of May 1997. Do you understand that? Do you see that statement? It commences at page 19 and it goes all the way to page 21. Do you see this?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recognise that statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do know it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that statement set out the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now in particular on page 21 of the bundle of documents the 7th line from the top it is stated
"Umtata head office instructed us to come to them and we did so."
Do you have that reference?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do see it Sir.

MR WESSELS: Is that also the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR WESSELS: Will you then kindly page to page 38 of the bundle of documents? What you have before you now is the handwritten statement taken down by the Special Investigating Officer that is Inspector Jordaan to whom I presume you also told the truth.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do see it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute. What do you say to what Mr Wessels is saying? That is he presume that you told Mr Jordaan the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now if you look at page 38 you will see that there are two endorsements on the left hand margin indicating an initial. You see those two initials on the left hand margin?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I see them Sir.

MR WESSELS: Now below the bottom initial, about two, three lines below that one there is a sentence which reads
"After Bra Mos spoke to the short heavily white man at Elliot Security Branch he came to us and told us that Umtata's head office of the security branch was needing us in Umtata."
Do you see that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do see it Sir.

MR WESSELS: Is that also the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes Sir.

MR WESSELS: So we have now, I have now referred you to three statements setting out the fact that Umtata head office called you back. Do you agree with that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes Sir.

MR WESSELS: Your evidence in this proceedings was that it was General Kawe that instructed you to come back. Do you recall that evidence that you gave?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do remember that Sir.

MR WESSELS: You will agree with me that the version that General Kawe instructed you to come back is not the same as is set out in those three statements that I referred you to?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: One thing is that the head office of security was General Kawe and it is he who then instructed that we return back to Umtata.

MR WESSELS: Is this only an assumption that you are making or is it in fact the situation that it was General Kawe that instructed you to return to Umtata?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was General Kawe.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he is highlighting Mr Wessels is that General Kawe was the head of the security branch in Umtata.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman. But Mr Dandala why then if it was in fact General Kawe that instructed you to return, why then did you decide in three statements not to mention his name as the one that asked you to return but just referred to Umtata head office? Do you understand the point I am making?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I hear you Sir. As the person who was heading the security section and the instruction coming from him that we must return. Clearly I did not mention him in the statement but what I meant when I said that the head office had said we must return I meant it was he who did that.

MR WESSELS: You are not suggesting that it was General Kawe that spoke to you personally in instructing or conveying this instruction that you must return to head office?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No he did not talk to me directly. He referred to the office of Elliot and we then got from Elliot that he had said we must return to Umtata.

MR WESSELS: So bearing that in mind you will agree with me that your assumption that it was General Kawe that instructed you to return could be wrong? It could have been somebody else?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It cannot be somebody else because we were told clearly that it was he who had said that we must return.

MR WESSELS: Let us proceed with your evidence about when you arrived at Umtata head office, the security branch at Umtata. Who did you meet with?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I met Colonel Booi.

MR WESSELS: And what happened after you met Colonel Booi at Umtata?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Are you talking about the 24th?