Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR PHOSA: Well, that is why my questions are being raised, because you didn't ask, now that is according to you.  Now also - now having done it - the first was I was talking about your intention to do it, having done it (a) you could have asked - you could have reported on a person to person basis to your seniors or one of them that you have done it on a person to person, couldn't you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I repeat I could have done it but I did not do it.

MR PHOSA: Is there perhaps something we don't understand, are the two gentlemen - hold on please - are the two gentlemen, Mr du Plessis and Mr van Rensburg, the only policemen that you trusted on matters of that nature - the only two in the whole police force?

MR VISSER: I think is also and it's been throughout Mr Chairman, Mr Niewoudt was also part of the ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: I just don't know how I can forget Mr Niewoudt - by implication he was included, I'm sorry actually I can have problems for leaving him out.  Is he one - are those three the only ones you trusted?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: An operation of this nature should be executed by people whom you trust.  This group was composed in such a way - I did not add Niewoudt, it was du Plessis's choice to include whomever he wished and I trusted these people and I still put my trust in them today.

MR PHOSA: Yes but you know, I have used the word: "only".  Besides these three others, is your evidence that: "I could not trust any other policeman in South Africa or in the world regarding this aspect".  Now you answer is, "it is or it is not".  I see your counsel is shaking his head.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, it is not what I am saying, I'm sayin that in this specific incident these people were involved and I would have certainly - could find other security policemen somewhere to execute this task.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr PHOSA, suppose you - I want to commit a murder and I trust 20 people in South Africa, would I go around and tell them: "Listen, I'm going to commit a murder?

MR PHOSA: If they are joint murderers, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: But you're making them joint murderers by telling them.

MR PHOSA: No, no, I don't understand - as I understand, the police in the security branch, firstly in the Eastern Cape and right through the country were trusted, they trusted one another.  I've now even left out the political {intervention] - I'm so sorry, so sorry, I've now even omitted the other - the politicians, I'm dealing strictly within the police force and I'm saying - I'm assuming from what you said that the police trusted one another - the security police and therefore I'm trying to find out whether he sees it differently.
	He could not have trusted other security policemen because the assumption is that security policemen would all have no difficulty about the eliminating.  So the example you raised with me Mr Commissioner, is inappropriate in that you are talking about people I don't know, whose thinking but according to him security police were thought it was appropriate to kill people like him.

ADV DE JAGER: Now I understand ...[inaudible]

MR PHOSA: Yes.  So the question being - I really am asking - I'm glad for it to have been cleared, is simply whether you did not believe that surely security policemen especially your seniors could also be trusted, not just these four individuals?  Well if it's your case to say they couldn't be, well that's your case.  I want to understand your problem.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I cannot believe that I could not trust my other colleagues but in incidents like these or this specific incident, this was performed on a must know basis.  I could not tell everybody that I came to such a point to perform this task.

MR PHOSA: Okay, let's leave out every policeman, let's not talk about every other policeman.  Was there not even one other senior policeman in the entire security branch system senior or junior outside Port Elizabeth, that you could have reported to, that you could have mentioned this to with confidence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I repeat, I trusted a lot of policemen but at this stage I want to say I did not, I personally did not talk about this to anybody because I regarded this case a need to know and those who knew and the others, for them it was not necessary to know.

MR PHOSA: I should ask you this question.  Do you regard yourself and your colleagues in having eliminated these two young men, as having done a wonderful job - as you sit there now?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, in my evidence I have said that this was a very tragic deed and everyone of us and especially I myself am extremely sorry and I feel sorry for the families who suffered because of this.  This was not a very heroic thing to do.  For me as a person, it degraded me.  Every day for 15 years or more, I Gerrit Erasmus had to live with this.  I'm trying to forget, I'm trying to put it behind me but I can say today it's almost impossible, you never forget this.
	And this is why I'm sitting here today and this is why I'm telling you exactly what I have done.  If I look back I would not have done it and hopefully I would never be in a position again to be involved in something like this.  And for us, I am not a murderer otherwise we could have murdered a lot of people here.  We've experienced many problems here, if we wanted to commit murder just for the sake of murder, we could have done that.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did you do that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, there was one further incident for which I am applying for amnesty which will serve before this Committee, and that was all.

CHAIRPERSON: It took place some months before this one, didn't it - with the same team and in the same circumstances?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I don't know whether is was exactly the same team, there was perhaps the exception of one or two other people.

CHAIRPERSON: It was Mr van Rensburg and Mr du Plessis and having killed the man, they left his car near the border so that the suspicion would be created that he'd left the country - same pattern.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you were doing now was not something new for you, it was something you'd done before?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was not new - this was not the first incident of this kind I agree but the first incident, those circumstances were not the same.

ADV SANDI: Is there perhaps any incident similar to the two you have mentioned which you may have forgotten?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: If you mean where murder was involved, no.

ADV SANDI: Do I understand you to say that there was nothing preventing you from giving a report to your senior security officers?  If you wished to do so you would have done so, there was nothing preventing you.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is the normal procedure.  Under normal circumstances there was nothing which could prevent me but in this instance I did not report back.

ADV SANDI: The question I was putting to you is: "If you wanted to do so, you would have reported the matter to one of your senior security officers or confide on a man to man basis", as you've said - to one of them?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I could have done it like that, yes.

ADV SANDI: You did not see the need to do so?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I did not see a need for that because I handled it on a need to know basis.

MR PHOSA: You'll bear with me, I may ask question that other people wouldn't have asked, I've only just walked into this so bear with me.  Which is this other instance where - referred to by the Chairperson - the Chairman, where you and others dumped somebody in his - somebody's car at the border?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The other incident was the Kondile matter.

MR PHOSA: That was in 1981?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You did not report that incident to any senior of yours, did you?