Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We informed them that when he arrived we'll come and collect him at night, when it's dark.

MR HUGO: Very well.  And what took place then?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It happened that way.  That person arrived, then we took him and then we instructed him to bring his arms, because in Durban there are roadblocks.  We wanted him to believe us that we are not operating freely, but we are operating underground, because if we were to be free, or behaved to be free, he'll be surprised.  So he gave us his firearms.  If I remember well he gave me a Makarov pistol and AK, AK47, then I hid them inside the car.
	We had an appointment with our white members, that we'd meet at KwaMashu highway.  They took us out of the road, then I gave those firearms to Mr McCarter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, to Mr who?

MR HUGO: McCarter.

CHAIRPERSON: McCarthy?

MR HUGO: McCarter.
	And was this person then delivered to Mr Hentie Botha and taken away?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR HUGO: And do you know what happened to him?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, I don't know.

MR HUGO: And then in paragraph 20 ..(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just ask something?
	Didn't you ever testify about this man in court?  That was your main function, to testify about these people, you told us that.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well then what would have happened to the person if you didn't ever testify about him?  You were part of the arrest of this man, surely you would testified if he'd appeared in court.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson when we arrested the person, in Vlakplaas they would phone Col de Kock, or send him a letter, that I should come.  I was waiting for that brief, but it did not come.  It would happen that if you have arrested a person in a particular district, you'd be notified as to whether when and where you will give evidence about that arrestee, but I was not informed.  I thought it has been done the other way around.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	And then Mr Radebe, just briefly, in paragraph 20 of your affidavit you deal with Mr Mbane's allegation, that you would have shot a person through the head in your vehicle and that you would have left the corpse or the body at the Executive Hotel.  What do you say about that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is not true, because I did not have a firearm, I was operating without a firearm as I was a driver.  There was no person, if I remember well, that he was killed in that car.  If it happened, I could have informed my seniors, so that if problems come, they would know.  I would not make it my secret.

MR HUGO: Very well.  And then in paragraph 21 you state that more persons were delivered to Hentie Botha's division.  Do you know whether the man in the plaster of paris was ever delivered to them at any stage?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We returned him to Botha, because people didn't trust him in KwaMashu, they regarded him as a double agent, that we should take care of him.  Therefore, we observed that we were working under pressure if we are with him.

MR HUGO: And do you know what happened to the plaster of paris man?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You then state that Ms Kubheka became suspicious, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Why did she become suspicious?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: She asked us as to whether where is our safe-house and that in Lusaka they are phoning as to whether what is happening to those people, because nothing is happening.

MR LAX: Can you just stop for a second.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
ON RESUMPTION

MR HUGO: I apologise Mr Chairman, why I was leading him in Afrikaans is, we consult in Afrikaans.  I should have done it in English, I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm just requesting you, not telling you to do it.

MR HUGO: No, we'll certainly try and do that.  If you would correct my grammar, then it will be fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I appreciate that, Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Yes Mr Radebe, you said there in paragraph 23, that Ms Kubheka became suspicious, will you just repeat to us why you're saying that?  What made you think that she's becoming suspicious?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could put your mike on.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: She was asking us as to whether what's happening tot hose people who were in the safe-house, because she wants to see them and in Lusaka they are enquiring about their whereabouts because nothing is happening.  That is where we went to report to our white members that we will not be able to continue, because this woman keeps on enquiring about the whereabouts of the people we are alleged to have accommodated. We decided, the three of us, that if they are not doing anything, we would not continue working with the operation.

MR HUGO: And did you realise that there could be problems for yourselves if you were to carry on with this particular operation whilst she has become suspicious?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson, we would be in problems because she was suspicious.

MR HUGO: And that you would maybe be identified as traitors and that your lives would be in danger?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You then went to Mr Botha, and what was the discussion that ensued between the two of you?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Const Mbane and Const Dube, they were not quite conversant with Afrikaans, we decided that we will not be able to continue with the operation because the woman we usually go to, she's starting to be suspicious that we denied to take her to the safe-house.  And then again, when she requested that one of those people should be brought to her, we are not able to do so, therefore we're going to have a problem.

MR HUGO: Now what was the solution to this problem, what did you and Mr Botha discuss and what did you decide to do about the problem?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That we should fetch her and bring her to where they are.

MR HUGO: And what arrangements did you make to take her to where they are?  And we'll ask you about where they were supposed to be, in a minute, but what arrangements did you make with Ms Kubheka?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember well Chairperson, as to whether it was at the station or at Kentucky that we stated that we were not able to leave with her from the township, therefore we'd meet her either in the two places I've mentioned to this safe-house.

MR HUGO: What did you tell her, under what pretence did you get her to come to the station, if in fact she did go to the station?  What did you tell her, why was she to come there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember between Jimmy and Dube, who told her that he doesn't want people, the local people to see us in the township, because there was an allegation that there are people who are working underground in the township and with the pretence of being comrades.  So we were afraid that maybe other people have seen us in the police station with that kombi, therefore we decided that she should come to town.

MR HUGO: Be it as it may, you then met her and what happened at this meeting?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We found her at the appointed place at the particular time.  I don't know as to whether we went to the coast or to another place where white members took her, and then we went to Winkelspruit.  There was a place called Winkelspruit where white members were staying there.  We found that their cars are there and then we observed that they have arrived.

MR HUGO: Yes, and what can you recall about the activities that took place at Winkelspruit, after you arrived there?