Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman, the only point I'm tryingto make in re-examination is Brigadier Cronje was attacked aboutthe fact that he stated in his evidence that there was a war situation.   What I'm trying to show and what he's trying to show in hisevidence, and I will proceed unless the Committee stops me todo that, is that from the view of not only the security forcesbut from the view of the liberation movements themselves, therewas a war situation in this country and that is what we are tryingto show.

JUDGE NGCOBE: Mr Du Plessis I personally don't see whetherhanding in this document for us to read only, or let me put itthe other way, I don't know whether this document acquires moreevidential value simply because the witness is reading it to us.  I don't see any evidential value added purely as, simply becausethe witness is reading to us.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes.

JUDGE NGCOBE: On the other hand you may be wanting totake
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the witness through the document to certain portions to invitehis comments, in other words for him to underpin certain portionsof the document, but really just to read it right throughout intothe record I don't see what evidential value it acquires.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes, Mr Chairman the intention was toask him his comment on specific parts of the document.

MR CURRAN: Mr Chairman it seems as if it's possible thatMr Du Plessis has misunderstood aspects of the questions thatwere put to the Brigadier.   After the break, the very first statementthat was made by us as that it's common cause that the ANC andliberation movements waged an armed liberation struggle so we'renot for one moment contesting the fact that the ANC waged an armedliberation struggle.  That was not the context of any challengethat we put to the Brigadier, it just really related to the responsein the war that was waged in response to the ANC's war.   We arenot denying that the ANC waged a war.

CHAIRPERSON: That is how I understood Mr Curran's approach,to say to the Brigadier whether the reaction of the police unitswas not a reaction to a war and was that not a declaration ofwar by themselves.   I think we all of us know sufficiently whatthe liberation movement, the struggle of the liberation movementsand so on, so I do not think it necessary to burden the recordof these proceedings on what the liberation movement was all about.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes.   Mr Chairman the only point I wantto make clear at this stage, and I know Mr Curran after the breakasked the question in a much different vein than the questionhe asked before the break.   Before the break he'd asked the question,he formulated the question as saying to
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Brigadier Cronje that the police waged a war on the people inthe black townships.    I feel dutybound to deal with this issueand to bring it under the Committee's attention that the factthat his evidence is that there was a war going on in this countryis confirmed by various people involved in the struggle.   I havemade that point, I don't want to belabour that point.   If theCommittee feels that I have made that point with the evidencethat I have presented now, I will deal with the other informationthat I have in my possession in argument.

CHAIRPERSON: The ANC's representations to the TRC woulditself reflect that the ANC had been engaged in a liberation struggleand an elaborate account of the nature and extent of that struggle.

MR DU PLESSIS: : That's the point I wanted to make Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we need traverse all that ground.

UNKNOWN: Could I ask counsel, if you agree on a certaindocument, the document itself can't be disputed, can't you agreeto hand in the document by agreement and not to read out everysentence because we'll never finish, we'll read books here andit could be handed in by agreement.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman yes, with respect that iswhy I posed this question now because I wanted Brigadier Cronjeto raise the points he raised and to read to the Committee specificallyin his own words what he read to the Committee now.

JUDGE WILSON: : They were not his own words, that's preciselythe problem.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes, well Mr Chairman I wanted him toread that to the Committee so that he could answer in re
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examination the question.   I won't deal with this issue furtherI think he has answered the questions sufficiently and I willdeal with it in argument again at the end.   Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman, before the adjournment and MrChairman will pardon me for doing it in this fashion, I just wantto announce Mr Chairman to the Committee members and everybodyhere present, the matters that we are going to deal with tomorrowand in that sequence.   Thereafter I want my colleagues to confirmthat, this was discussed with them by myself.   The first oneMr Chairman tomorrow will be the killing of Pete Mtuli, the 5thfrom the bottom, Pete Mtuli followed by the Qwandabela 9 killing,that's 7th from below, Qwandabela 9, followed by Nietverdient,the first one after the title "matters to be dealt with atPretoria hearings".  Mr Chairman I further want to put iton record that inasfar as people that are implicated are concernedMr Chairman, I have sent out notification to those people affectedin all the three matters but at this moment I have not as yetreceived the return of services from the investigative units,they may be able to do that tonight to me or tomorrow morning.  The people that I highlighted on the document before the Chairman,the forms have been issued yesterday to them.

JUDGE WILSON: : Are they all the people who were mentionedin the application, not just one or two?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I did not issue the notificationto all the people, I selected certain people whom I thought weremore salient to the actions or the acts.   Thank you Mr Chairman.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
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CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn now until 9:30 tomorrowmorning.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : As arranged yesterday, the first matter tobe dealt with is that of the killing of Pete Ntuli, followed bythe two others Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman I am ready, the applicantsare ready but the legal representative, Advocate Theunis Bothafrom Pretoria Bar has not yet arrived.   I have enquired withthe client who informed me this morning that they are on theirway because I asked her to phone him yesterday, which thing shedid.   I don't know what the position is going to be Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he placed himself on record as counsel?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman he has not, he has not.

CHAIRPERSON: And who...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : For Pete Ntuli, Mr Chairman the Pete Ntulirelatives of victims Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Curran is not involved in that is it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Curran is not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   My brother Judge Wilson saysthat he has some questions to put to the last witness and maybein the meantime we hope that counsel will arrive.

JUDGE WILSON: : There is a very large constant bangingnoise in my earphones.

INTERPRETER: It is possible that someone's microphoneis on and that they are touching it which might cause that, butthe technical staff would have to check that for us, I'm not surehow to handle that.
JAN HATTINGH CRONJE (suo)
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE WILSON

<UNKNOWN>: I understood from your evidence yesterday thatthe local committee for the Northern Transvaal only targeted oneperson, is that so?

ANSWER: That is the case Chair.
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<UNKNOWN>: You went on to tell us that you gave Hechtergeneral instructions, which included authority to target and killpeople, is that so?

ANSWER: I cannot hear clearly M'Lord, that is correctyes.