Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer that, is it correct that the reports about meetings that were supposed to have been held in that area, had ceased in 1992?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I wouldn't say that they ceased in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us an idea of when was the last report before this incident, of such a meeting?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: There were such reports about these meetings, they didn't stop reporting about these meetings.  That is why we took a decision to go to the sub-region.  I am not sure, but it was in the beginning of 1993, I think it was March, but I am not sure.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Smuts, from those reports you concluded that these people were dangerous?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, we saw it that way.

ADV SANDI: Were you expecting that these people could shoot at you, once you attacked them?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct, we expected that.

ADV SANDI: Why did you go there that day, without being armed, you had no firearm.  Why did you do that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It is because we agreed that there would be a weapon for us, for people who were left in the car, because it was clear that we would not go and attack, all of us.  There would be a weapon with us in the car, for our protection.
	As it has already been said, there were handgrenades in the car, and if anyone of us would see a need for us to be protected, we would use those handgrenades for our protection.

ADV SANDI: Did you sincerely believe that these people would fire back at you?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We expected that, that we might be shot because you wouldn't go to a person and be sure that he was not armed.  You would expect anything that would be dangerous and you would be prepared for that.

ADV DE JAGER: When you went down to find out whether there were white people staying there at the coast, you met a woman there, a lady.  Is that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You told us she was working there, is that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: She said she was working there.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there any other white people or only this one bungalow with white people?  Was she working for those people at the bungalow?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We didn't see any white people at that time.  We didn't investigate, but as these white people were not there who was left behind, we just heard that the white people who were there, were gone.  We just heard that there was a lady, but we didn't see her.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, and you were looking for jobs, so you enquired whether there were other people who could give you jobs, didn't you?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I don't remember.  I don't want to lie, I don't remember.  It might happen that we asked, but I don't remember.

ADV DE JAGER: And this lady working there, told you that there was an old lady and a child there at the house, and the others left to go fishing, isn't that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ask her whether she was working for these people?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Please repeat your question.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ask this lady whether she was working for these people, who had gone fishing and who left behind the old lady and the child?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We were not sure whether she was working for them.  We didn't ask.

ADV DE JAGER: For who else could she have been working?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We assumed that she was working for them, but she didn't say it.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, now you assumed she was working for them.  Did you ask her whether they were staying permanently there or whether they were visitors or whether they were holiday makers, what was the position?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We found out that they were visitors, we found that from her.

ADV DE JAGER: So you found out that they were visitors?  If they were visitors, did you envisage that they would attend Costello's meetings in the previous year and in March and all the other times?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct because that was one of the coastal areas, Mdakeni, they went to Mdakeni one of the coastal areas that Costello used to have meetings.

ADV DE JAGER: So didn't Costello have meetings here where they were staying, at that coastal area?  What was the name Mbande?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: As I have already said before, the two coastal areas, we got a report that Costello was seen in those two coastal areas.  He had meetings there in both coastal areas.

ADV DE JAGER: This lady working there, was she from that area, did she stay there?  Did you know her, you are from that area?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I didn't know her.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you ask her where are you from, are you from Grahamstown or are you from Kokstad or from wherever?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: This lady?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, because she is working for these people?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, we didn't ask her.

ADV DE JAGER: She would know whether they were only visitors coming to make a holiday?  It would be easy to find out?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: According to my knowledge, when the whites arrived there, the visitors, they would take people from the villages near by, that was what used to happen.  I didn't want to ask whether they came with her, I just assumed that she was from the area, but I didn't know her personally.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, you have assumed now that she was from the area, then she would have known whether these people are only there for a weekend, whether they are coming for a week or whether they were staying there, or whether they are attending meetings.  Isn't that so?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Maybe she was supposed to know.

ADV DE JAGER: But you didn't enquire?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, we didn't ask.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that because you didn't want to know whether they were holiday makers or not?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I think it is because we didn't think about that.

ADV SANDI: You were not, sorry Mr Smuts, you were not interested to know from this Mama you say you were talking to, you were not interested to know as to whether the people who had gone out for fishing, whether they were frequent holiday makers in that area?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I wouldn't say we were not interested.  At that time, I didn't notice any interest because of the situation I was under, because Chris Hani was killed, because of the death of Chris Hani.
	Even you say, you know that if you do some, if you are angry and you do something, there are mistakes that you do or make and you realise them afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Smuts?

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Hermans, if I may go back to your evidence relating to Mr Costello whom you suspected of being a member of the AWB, what was his business?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: He was the owner of a Supermarket.

MR SMUTS: Were you aware of any other business that he conducted?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No.  Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the day the South African Communist Party was launched, you say there were a number of cars and a lot of disruption of that launch.  Did you see these cars and people hooting outside that hall?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You described what they did there, as a protest.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: During this what you call a protest, and then you looked at these people, did you see any flags or posters or such like articles?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are in no position to say exactly apart from your suspicions, who these people associated with or which political party they associated with when they were protesting like that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I cannot say anything else, besides my suspicions.

MR SMUTS: I received instructions during the lunch hour Mr Hermans ...