Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I am going to speak in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: : You will have to use your earphones because some of them will be speaking to you in English, but you do understand English. Please don't come and play games here.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thami, could you please state your full names for the
record please?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: (sworn in)

MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch.
 I just want to make clear to the legal representatives before we start that we will be making references to certain documents. Most of the documents we have already distributed to the legal representatives. Those that we have not, any additional documents that we do distribute - I beg your pardon, Arch, I just need to change my translation facilities.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't have to listen to yourself in Zulu.

MR VALLY: Sorry, I was saying that we will refer to certain documentation. We will refer to the first Section 29 Inquiry, we will refer to the 2nd Section 29 enquiry, or any other documentation with which we have already handed out. If there are additional documents to be handed out, we will do so as we raise them or discuss them.
 Please note, we are not going to be handing out documents to everybody, we will just be handing out documents to those persons who -

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, excuse me, can those people, if you want to be in here, I don't want those things to be shown here. If you want to demonstrate, you can go and demonstrate outside, not in here, please.
 Yes, Hanif.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch. I want to make it clear that when we do give out additional documentation, we will not be giving out to all the legal teams, just those legal teams affected If there are legal teams who believe that they want a copy of it, we will make it available to them later on.
 Mr Hlatswayo, you made a statement to the Human Rights Violations Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission on the 9th September 1996, and I will be giving you a copy of that statement right now. Do you recognise that statement before you? You will notice the page with your address has been removed therefrom, but the rest of the statement, do you recognise it?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Come again, sir.

MR VALLY: Do you recognise the statement before you? Is that the statement that you made to the Human Rights Violations Committee on the 9th September 1996? Do you recognise the statement, Mr Hlatswayo?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I am still looking, sir.

MR VALLY: Will you look at the last page with your signature on it. Maybe that will help.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, I do, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it looks like you are going to be answering in English, then you don't need this, because you are just confusing each other. I think you are going to speak English.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I will speak in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are, that is your constitutional right.

MR VALLY: Let's proceed, Mr Hlatswayo.
 Were you formally a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us from which date to which date?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: If I am not mistaken, I think I have joined the underground structure in 1984.

MR VALLY: Looking at your statement you refer to the death of a Mr Vincent Sefako. Do you confirm that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: One of the issues I want to canvass early on is the date that you set out at as the date when Vincent Sefako was apparently killed. You say it was the 15th November 1987 and you say there was also the murder of an unnamed person, which in your statement took place on the 22nd November 1987. You say that on Page 7 of your submission.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Excuse me, sir, I am a bit confused. Must I go through my statement again?

MR VALLY: I am just referring to what you say in your statement. Just turn to Page 7 and you'll see your reference to the death of Mr Vincent Sefako. Do you see the table there on Page 7?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I do, sir.

MR VALLY: On the left it says Vincent Sefako. Do you see that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You then say he was hit by a moving car, he died, I don't know whether on the spot or not, occupants of the car unknown, you also say she was shot dead.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I think you are talking about the two persons at the same time, because you said "he" and "she".

MR VALLY: Ja, I was quoting, but I think - there is no other name. Alright, let's stick to Vincent Sefako. You then under "when" say it was 15th November 1987, it was on a Sunday.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's true.

MR VALLY: And then you give an address.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Now below that there's a blank spot and to the right of it you say, "She was shot dead". Is this the unknown person we're referring to?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir. No, that's not the same time, it's not Vincent Sefako. It was the lady who was shot who was staying at the house No.2 Thlathle.

MR VALLY: I understand that, and this is a person who was unknown to you?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I meant the name. I didn't know her name but I know her facially.

MR VALLY: Thanks. We have got another statement from a Mrs Dipuo Mathibe, Catherine Dipuo Mathibe and the first question I will ask you there is this, that Ms Dipuo as well as family members of the person who was a neighbour by the name of Susan Maripa stated that the incident took place in October 1987. Is it possible that this incident regarding the person you called the unknown person took place in October 1987 rather than November 1987?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I think it happened on November 22nd because I remember that is the day when I skipped the country, sir, on the November 22nd.

MR VALLY: We kept the inquest record and the inquest record says the 29th October 1987. There is also a statement from Mrs Mathibe, which I have handed to you as well, and they also refer to, if you look at paragraph 12, Susan Maripa was killed on Thursday 29th October 1987, look at paragraph 12 of Susan Maripa's statement, I am sorry, of Catherine Mathibe's statement. If you are not certain, that is fine, but if you are absolutely sure, please indicate.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: But I think the incident happened on the same day which I skipped the country, sir. I made a mistake somewhere because I remember on the, I think it was the Sunday, when that guy Vincent Sefako was killed. Ja, it was Sunday and the lady was killed, it was during the week, if I am not mistaken, maybe Tuesday.

MR VALLY: So is it possible that the date for the murder of the person we refer to as Mrs Susan Maripa took place on the 29th October 1987?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's possible, sir.

MR VALLY: In your submission to the TRC, on page 10, paragraph 9.1, you say Vincent Sefako's code name was Moshoshovo.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's true.

MR VALLY: Was he also known as Vusile?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Vusile, that's it.

MR VALLY: Are Vincent Sefako and Vusile one and the same person?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: In Mrs Mathibe's submission on page 2, paragraph 4, she also uses the code name of Mshoshovi. Is this also the same person?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Combat name, sir.

MR VALLY: So we have confirmed that all these names refer to the same person, Vincent Sefako, Vusile, Mshoshovi as well as Moshoshovo.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's correct, sir.

MR VALLY: The name we will use is Mr Sefako for the purposes of this hearing. Was Mr Sefako your immediate Commander?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You stated in your submission, page 8, paragraph 6, that at the time of his death the two of you were about to leave on an MK mission to Bophuthatswana where you were involved in, and you use the word, demobilising the local council police and the SAP in general. Is that correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: What did you mean by "demobilising"?