Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-23

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: He said that he was accepting accountability for the deeds which had been committed before the 1994 elections. And I also heard that our names were published as such in the newspaper by Mr van Tonder.

CHAIRPERSON: Well lets talk about what you told us. The statement that.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is the press release that was issued by Mr Terreblanche and which Robert van Tonder published in his newspaper. I am currently attempting to get hold of the newspaper for you.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't one understand the statement for what it is worth by Mr Terreblanche that he was speaking of the actions which were carried out by members of the AWB who were acting in terms of the policy and orders of the AWB?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson I am not certain that is why I am trying to get hold of the newspaper so that I can say with certainty what was in fact said there. But we heard via the news and you know that the news is not always that expansive therefore we do not have the precise detail of what he said there. But generally speaking he accepted the responsibility for the deeds committed before the 1994 elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not correct that, it is something else that I am asking you about. That these people, the victims before they were shot they were put, maybe I should ask you. Where were they when they were shot?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They were sitting on a small embankment next to the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they made to lie down or were they seated?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No they remained seated.

CHAIRPERSON: In line?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes they sat more or less in line.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they not ordered to sit in a straight line?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: It was not a straight line but they sat next to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw them sitting in a line form?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In that, under those circumstances would you not have been able to notice a 9 year old person?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: It was dark and as I have said I did not watch the people. I was not involved in the questioning or searching of the people so I really did notice a child of that age.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is a small child? He cannot look big simply because it is dark surely? He must just still be a small child? Unless you are saying that it was so dark that you could not see, you could not distinguish between a big person and a small child.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson I did have much to do with the people themselves, I did not question them. And therefore I did not notice the child. But we did shoot him. However I cannot remember that I saw such a young and small child there.

CHAIRPERSON: But how can you not if they are sitting in a line?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: As I have said it was dark. I could not make out the detail of people seated there. I did not notice that much.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that how that it was?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: It was dark. We had one torchlight and it could not light up all the people at once.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Matthews you were asked my Mr Malan in terms of what Mr Terreblanche had said on television?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you also see something about a funeral in that cut?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct. If i might refer to what Mr Brink said yesterday that the people who we had shot that they were not ANC members. Last night on the eight 'o clock and nine 'o clock news bulletins they showed the funeral of one of these persons where the casket was carried by people dressed in MK uniforms. Therefore I am further convinced that they were in fact ANC members.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Matthews what was Mr Terreblanche's at attitude after he came to hear of your amnesty application?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: He was positive. He said that we should proceed with our amnesty applications. That each one of us should have a chance to get out of prison. That we should definitely go for it.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: .

MR MALAN: I beg you pardon. Might I just with Mr Prinsloo's permission ask the following? Did you at any point in time apply for further indemnity under legislation?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: After we were arrested we filled in forms several times for indemnity. It must have been twice or three times that we filled out those forms.

MR MALAN: Do you have copies of those forms?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No.

MR MALAN: Do you recall what the story was that you gave there? Was it the same facts that you are telling us now?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I cannot really remember. I would have to consult my legal team regarding that.

MR MALAN: Just broadly?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Broadly speaking it would have been the same story.

MR MALAN: Or is it the same story that you told in court?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I would have followed my legal representatives instructions there. We could not expand a great deal. We only mentioned small points until we would be granted a trial or a hearing and we could not expand very much in our applications.

MR MALAN: Are you saying to me that it is probable that you did not tell the truth in those applications?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I would have told the truth but we could not set it out in the same manner as the applications which we have submitted to you.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Matthews you can stand down.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink try to find out for us whose funeral it was which was shown on TV yesterday night.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman if I am not mistaken I think it was in regard to that child who was shot while walking at that foot path. I forgot the name but a man called Steyn apparently has been arrested in connection with that murder. I think it was that funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not?

MR BRINK: I have made a mistake. I will find out.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression that because they showed that at the time when they were talking about this particular amnesty hearing I got the impression that - they did not say anything about the funeral but I got the impression that it was a funeral related to this hearing. Which led me to the conclusion that it probably was the funeral of one of the victims who were
killed.

MR BRINK: I see. No I misunderstood. I did not see television news last night so I am not aware of this.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just to find out from the families of the victims.

MR BRINK: Yes it may be also. Mrs Jessica Pitchford who represents the SABC is here, she might be able to assist me in that regard as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright. Who is next?

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to call Mr Kloppers. At the moment he cannot move his neck, can we please adjourn so that we can place him in the witness place?

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn and then come back at twenty past. That will be tea time. We won't be, we will stop now and that will be tea time and then we will resume at twenty past eleven and we will not be stopping again until one 'o clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .