Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR STOFILE: No concern was raised about her screams?  I just want to hear it from you?

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't expect concern from torturers just because somebody is crying.  That's what they're trying to make it.

MR LAX: The other thing is there's a difference between screams and cries?  So just check whether she screamed or not.

MR STOFILE: I'm indebted to you.  The victim screamed, shouting, screaming, you know, due to pain.  Do you recall that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, all of them they normally do that and she also did the same.  Very loud, she cried very, very loud.

MR STOFILE: The victim says in this particular case I put it to you that when she was crying and at the same time shouting out of pain you then throttled her?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not throttle her.

CHAIRPERSON: You must be careful Mr Stofile, when you say you throttled her are you talking - because we know there were various people, are you talking you singular meaning him or when you say you, one of the seven or eight people that were there?  I think because he's answered it as if it was he's saying he personally didn't do it?

MR LAX: Just while you're at it, maybe you could just clarify what you mean by throttle?  You know throttle could be putting a hand over someone's mouth, it could be grabbing the throat, it could be a number of different things.  I'm not clear what you mean he did?

MR STOFILE: The witness, the victim says somebody tried to close her mouth forcefully so that he used - sound was muffled.  It was one of you, in your presence but he doesn't know his name.  Do you remember?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That could be true, maybe I've forgotten about it.  If you say her mouth was closed forcefully.

MR STOFILE: At some point she says a canvas bag with water was put with dirty water including cigarette stubs was put over her head and then tied around her neck.  Do you remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did that mention that the canvas bag was administered to her but I know nothing about cigarette butts but yes, a canvas bag was used with water on her.

MR STOFILE: You can't dispute that the water was dirty and with cigarette butts do you?  Or did you inspect the water before it was put into the canvas bag?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There's a difference between inspecting the water or something, I might say the water is clean but the water is coming from the tap but it's not clean.  What kind of inspection, inspecting the dirt or to be sure that the water is clean enough, what do you mean?

MR STOFILE: I'm referring to the water inside the canvas bag which the victim says it was dirty?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The water was from the tap.

CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe the water from the tap was put into the bag which contained cigarette butts and other stuff that might make it dirty so it was clean and then when it gets in the bag it's then dirty?  Is that possible?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes the bag was not clean, it is possible that the water also was dirty but I do not know anything about the cigarette butts.  Yes, the bag was not clean.  The reason for me to say that the bag was not clean, the bag had been used over and over again therefore it was dirty.

MR STOFILE: What took you so long to say that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What do you mean?

MR STOFILE: Just pass that, I don't want to waste time over that.  Do you recall that the victim at some point was placed upside down with the legs up on a steel dustbin with the canvas put around her neck and you know, the dresses were upside down and you know, the underwear was exposed to you, you know, with legs going haywire and she had to drink all that water inside, dirty water inside?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm requesting that my colleague should put very brief questions to the witness and not a long story.  It's going to be difficult for the witness to deliver ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Break it down although I must say it wasn't too complicated.  Do you recall that she was put into a dustbin with her legs sticking up?  When she had the canvas bag on her head?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I do not remember that part.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: I put it to you that it happened in your presence and you participated?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I never did that.  Myself as an individual I did not know about the other persons.

MR STOFILE: Where the interrogation and torture on that particular day carried on in your presence for the entire day, that particular day?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did ask you to give me a chance to relate the story but now you are going to cause me to leave out some other things because you do not know the story, please give me a chance to relate the story.

MR STOFILE: I'll give you a chance to relate the story.

MR LAX: Sorry, just - it's really quite simple, were you there for the whole day or weren't you whilst she was being tortured?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I was not present during the night.

MR LAX: There you go.

MR STOFILE: To be exact, during the time he was tortured from the time he was brought to the offices and up to the time that he was taken away from the offices on the 16th February 1987, the date of the arrest.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I do not understand your question Sir.

MR STOFILE: My question is were you present throughout the interrogation on that day with the victim?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you must just stop because he had mentioned that he wasn't there at night.  When you're talking about the day are you talking the whole of the 16th including the night or are you talking before sundown?

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chairperson.  My question is as from the time of the arrest when she was brought to the offices and up to the time when she left the Norwood offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present the whole time that she was there at the Norwood offices on that date?

MR STOFILE: I was not there on the time, the reason for me to say that even when she was taken to Engangaliswe I was not present, I was told that she was held at Gangaliso and even when she was fetched in the morning.  I was told that Mrs Matoti, after asking about his health condition we were told that she fell down the stairs at Engangaliswe and it is when she was very, very sick and then she was about to be admitted at the hospital.  Later on I learnt that it was not true that she fell down the stairs.  She was sick because of the torture, that is when she was admitted in the hospital, that's when I got that information.

MR STOFILE: Let's take it step by step now about the time he was being tortured.  During that particular time are you saying you were not there the whole time when she was tortured at the Norwood offices on that particular day of the arrest?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was not present during the night as I said I last saw her while she was still fainting and then she woke up when she regained consciousness, she was kept in the office to let her regain her complete ability.  I was not there when she was taken to Engangaliswe.  I don't even know at what time was she taken to Engangaliswe.  It is possible that she was interrogated for the whole night, I cannot deny that.

MR LAX: You said earlier in your evidence that she was taken, you couldn't take her to Wellington because her clothes were wet once she had recovered, therefore she was taken to Engangaliswe Police Station.  The impression you gave us in that part of your evidence was that as soon as she had recovered she was then taken off to the police station?