Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: (Cont)
	Mr Nosenga, it may be of importance to know your version, what happened to you at Ulundi?  Can you give us the details regarding yourself at Ulundi, once you were inside the stadium, what happened then?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I explained yesterday, I just went to Ulundi and when I arrived I went to the conference.  I don't know what else you'd like me to explain.  Nothing happened to me.

MR LOWIES: Were you on a stage, were you on a podium or something similar to that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was among the members of the IFP, I was not put on stage.

MR LOWIES: Were you mentioned by anybody of the leadership of the IFP?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no.

MR LOWIES: You were not on the same stage as Chief Buthelezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was among the followers of the IFP and Chief Buthelezi was on the stage.  I was not among the leaders, I was among the followers or members of the IFP.  I'm not a leader of the IFP, I'm just a member.

MR LOWIES: You were not introduced to the chief?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was not introduced to him.

MR LOWIES: You were not mentioned by anybody, as a spy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, nobody said I'm a spy.  My apologies, Sir, I would like to know where you get that from because you did refer to the spy thing yesterday as well.  I don't know where you're getting this from.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you are here to answer questions, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If there are any questions that you would like to ask, you will do that through your attorney.  If there is any matter that you'd like to canvass or have clarity on, your attorney will do that on your behalf.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I understand.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chair.
	So Mr Nosenga, to sum it up, you were just there as a normal supporter, listening and observing what is happening, nothing extraordinary happened to you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't recall.  I just went there as a member of the IFP.

MR LOWIES: And when the Chief Minister made his speech congratulating people on the Boipatong massacre, was he on a podium or on a stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was standing on something that looked like a stage, something that was a position that was, or a platform, an elevated platform should I say.

MR LOWIES: In other words simply put, he was making a speech and everybody could listen to him and could hear him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Yes, there was a system that was put in place so that everybody could hear.

MR LOWIES: So he was even speaking on the sound system.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't what it is, it is something that he was using, through which he was speaking.

MR LOWIES: Which amplifies the sound.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, maybe something like that.

MR LOWIES: What language did he speak?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember.  I cannot remember whether it was IsiZulu or English.  I cannot remember.

MR LOWIES: Because I want to put it to you that the evidence will be that there were dignitaries from other states who were invited, members of the press and so forth, and what is amazing is that nobody picked the speech up, the one that you are talking about.  Any comments?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said Buthelezi delivered a speech.  Sometimes these media people write things not as they happened, but I heard Buthelezi delivering a speech.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel wants you to comment on is that the speech was made in public, in the presence of the media and other persons, but in the reports following the conference, there was nothing which indicated he had made the statement attributed to him by you.
	Is that what you're putting to this witness?

MR LOWIES: Correct, Chairman.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just know that he spoke.  I heard him.  I still maintain that he delivered this speech in the presence of many other IFP members.

MR LOWIES: And Sir, I put it to you that this is another reason why, on the evidence of my clients, my instruction from them, that they say you are telling a lie, you are just trying to defame the image of the IFP.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not telling a lie, they are the ones who are telling a lie.  They are the ones who are discrediting the IFP.

MR LOWIES: Now Mr Nosenga, now that we've dealt with the contents of the statements that you made and contained in Form 1 - and with your permission, Chair, may my learned friend at this stage just indicate to him which Form 1 I'm talking about, because that is on page 1 of Exhibit R up until page 7, if he does not mind.  Now that the contents of this statement has been put to you, are you able to tell us who took this statement from you, or who completed this form containing these statements?  Also the one that you've signed, just to refer you to page 6, your signature thereon.  If my learned friend could assist me in that regard?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May my legal counsel please point it out to me?

MR LOWIES: From page 126, ...(indistinct).  And to assist you further, Sir, it is dated, it bears a date stamp of the Leeukop Prison, dated 25 September '96.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did explain that this statement was taken by Mongezi at Leeukop.  That is if I still remember very well.

MR LOWIES: Did you make any other statements to Mongezi or did you have any other contact with Mongezi after this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not get into any contact with him thereafter.

MR LOWIES: And before this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did not get into any contact with him.  I did not get into contact with him anymore, I only contacted or got into contact with Mr Brian thereafter, when I was in Stoffberg.

MR LOWIES: So Mongezi you only saw once then in your life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I saw him once.  That is if I'm not mistaken.

MR LAX: If I could just ask him here?

MR LOWIES: Sure.

MR LAX: I think you asked him; did he have any other contact with this chap after this, he said: "No", did he have any contact with him before this, and I can't catch his answer in that regard, I don't know if he answered that at all.

MR LOWIES: I thought that the implication was no, but maybe we should canvass this, with respect, Chairman.

MR LAX: Please.

MR LOWIES: Maybe Mr Nosenga you could just assist us in this.  Did you see him before this incident where he spoke to you and you made these statements?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I am saying he came to Leeukop Prison looking for Andries Nosenga and we went to Maximum C in Leeukop.  That is where the statement was taken, not at the Maximum section.

MR LOWIES: Who was your lawyer in the criminal charges where you were convicted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.  Which criminal offences?  Are you referring to the ones for which I was convicted, the Sebokeng incidents?

MR LOWIES: Yes, the murders.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Mongezi was not my legal counsel.

MR LOWIES: Did you have a pro deo counsel?  In other words, one paid by the state, to defend you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know.  I said I don't know whether the counsel was pro deo or not.  I said I don't know.  You're putting it as if it was Mongezi who appointed counsel for me.  I don't know really.

MR LOWIES: Well somebody had to pay him, you didn't, your family didn't.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.  I just saw a legal counsel coming to represent me.  I am saying I don't know who paid that legal counsel because he was going to represent me here at the hearing.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Nosenga, we're not talking about this hearing, we're talking about your trial where you were convicted.  Do you understand that?