Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MR MALAN: Was one of his children also killed in the attack, or wounded in the attack?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Do you refer to the attack that we launched?

MR MALAN: Yes.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I heard that some of his children had been injured.

MR MALAN: Were you - was Mkhize, your brother, was he an ANC supporter?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, he was an IFP supporter.

MR MALAN: Did you - was he with Makeke at stages?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, they did not used to travel together.

MR MALAN: Was he active in IFP, your brother Mkhize?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Although he was not an active member of the IFP, he did so because there were people who pressurised him and he was afraid for his life.

MR MALAN: May I, just while I'm asking questions, ask you, the place that you resided in the mountain, did your family go there with you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, my family did not reside there.

MR MALAN: Did your brothers reside with you there?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They used to stay at a certain area, eSnatengi.

MR MALAN: Sorry, I didn't get that?

INTERPRETER: eSnatengi.

MR MALAN: Were they not with you in the mountain that night when the attack was planned?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No.

MR MALAN: Did they have any knowledge of the attack?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, they did not know, they just heard about it thereafter.

MR MALAN: Who told them and when?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They heard about it on the radio that the children had been injured.

MR SARDIWALLA: Sorry Chairperson, I think the answer is quite different to the question asked.  Can the member of the Committee please re-ask that question for clarity purposes?

MR MALAN: I did not get a different answer to what I was expecting, so I wasn't surprised.  Maybe you can lead me, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

MR SARDIWALLA: I think the question put to him is where did they get to know about the incident.

MR MALAN: He said they heard on the radio.

MR SARDIWALLA: They heard on the radio.  Sorry I thought he said we heard on the radio.  Sorry I didn't get that clear.

MR MALAN: Who told you that they heard on the radio?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MALAN: Sorry, who told you that they heard on the radio?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I heard from Tulane who used to drive a taxi.

MR MALAN: When did he tell you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: In the morning.

MR MALAN: Did you then inform him?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we did not inform him, he just deduced it for himself.

MR MALAN: How did he manage to deduce it for himself?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I would say because he knew that we resided up there in the mountains to protect ANC members.

MR MALAN: But the killing didn't take place where you resided.  The killing took place at some other venue, is it not?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, it happened at a different place.

MR MALAN: That's right.  Now how did he deduce for himself that you were involved?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: He realised it because he was an ANC supporter and he knew the normal practice of how we did things.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I understand that but thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: That wasn't the normal thing for the ANC to kill school children.

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, I must object to that question because I didn't think he said, he hasn't reach that stage where he said he specifically had the intention or went there to kill school children.

ADV DE JAGER: No, but he said they heard on the radio and then it was known that it was school children that's been killed and he made the deduction that his brother would know he is involved because that was what the ANC was doing and I'm only putting it to him that that was not the ANC's method of doing things.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't you still object?

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because there is no evidence led before us that it was not the police of the ANC to kill children belonging to the IFP.

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes, of course that is very, very clear.  If that is what the Committee Member is suggesting, then obviously I must then vigorously object to that question.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure, you need to clarify it for me now.  You said, and that's in your supplementary affidavit paragraph 7 and then paragraph 8, that the following day you heard on the radio that there were children in the vehicle and that 6 of them were fatally shot and 15 injured in the ambush.  You're aware of that statement that you made?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you hear that on the radio while travelling with your brother in the taxi, driving the taxi?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I was at the house by that time.

MR MALAN: You heard it at the house?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, sorry Chairperson, you know this approach of putting facts that haven't been led, I think really Committee Members must refrain from.  There's evidence led.  If a question is being asked, with respect Chairperson, I think the question must be asked rather than putting evidence to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's ...(indistinct) he heard from Tulane that he had heard about the attack, the precise nature of which has not been canvassed on the radio and we'll give the ropes to you to canvass that.  Thank you.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you Chairperson.  Okay. So you heard the following day , you say on the radio, that 6 children were killed and 15 were injured in an ambush.  Firstly, where did you hear this?  Where were you when you heard this?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was in Edendale when I heard this.

MR SARDIWALLA: Who were you with?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was myself, Saul, Sishe and Khumbu.

MR SARDIWALLA: So those of you that actually executed this particular directive were together when you heard this on the radio?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we were together.

CHAIRPERSON: I was distracted for a second and so I have not really taken note of your earlier question.  If you can burden the record by repeating yourself again?

MR SARDIWALLA: I'll repeat them for the record, Chairperson.
You say you heard on the following day that there were 6 children that were fatally shot and 15 injured.  Where were you when you heard this?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was in Edendale when I heard that.

MR SARDIWALLA: And who were you with when you heard this?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was with Saul, Sishe and Khumbu.

MR SARDIWALLA: And was this the first time that you heard about this or did you hear about this, the effects of your ambush, prior to the radio announcement?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was the first time that I heard.

MR SARDIWALLA: And what was your reaction when you heard about this?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: My heart bled when I heard that innocent children had been killed, including those of my brother.

MR SARDIWALLA: You say your step-brother Bernard Mkhize's children were also killed?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, they were killed.

MR SARDIWALLA: And you say you were hurt when you heard this?  Why?  Why were you hurt?  You were in an ambush and you had intention to ambush a vehicle, what affected you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was hurt because the person that we had targeted had not been found.  It was unfortunate that children, who were not the target, were the ones who were harmed.

MR SARDIWALLA: Did you ever suspect that there were children in that vehicle, or did you see children in that vehicle, prior to your shooting?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We did not see the children.

MR SARDIWALLA: And if you did?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We would have not shot at them had we seen them.

MR SARDIWALLA: Was it at any stage a directive for you to go and shoot children or Makeke?

MR MALAN: I think the evidence was that there was no such directive in any event.  They volunteered, they decided to go.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you want to speak of policy or practice.  You can rephrase your question.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you, Chairperson, I'll rephrase it.
Was it ever the policy of the organisation that you belonged to, the ANC, to specifically target and attack children?