Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, you said that you were, as I recall, in Boipatong for approximately, what did you say, 30 minutes to an hour?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that on your way back, it was there, well probably, when you were in Boipatong and on your way back it was only then that you saw the police, the Casspirs I think you said, here near the robots?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and does that include the army as well?  Was it the army and the police, or just uniformed officers, it could have been the army or the... (intervention).

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was police vehicles, I may not know what uniform they had on.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it be possible that the army, the police that you saw there, were already there when you went into Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I will not explain whether they were there or not, because maybe I would have seen them if they were there, I would not know whether they were there or not, I cannot make a fair comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you went to Boipatong, there were no police in the vicinity where you later saw them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, sir, there were not.

CHAIRPERSON: You only saw them at that spot on your way back?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, on our return.

MR LAX: Mr Mthembu, did you use the small bridge twice, on the way in and on the way out?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We used it twice, on our way there and on our return from Boipatong.

MR LAX: You saw them from the bridge on your way out you said?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR LAX: You probably weren't looking for them on your way in, because you would have been going in the other direction?   I'm just trying to understand.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I've explained earlier, it is possible that they may have been there when we went into Boipatong, or they may not have been there, but I did not see them, because I was concentrating on where we were going.

MR LAX: That's what I was trying to understand, is why it was likely you might not have seen them, you were looking in a different direction?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, it is possible.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: On the Sunday, well before I get to the Sunday, for the 30 minutes to an hour that you were in Boipatong, I take it there was a lot of screaming, shouting, sounds of gunfire, going on?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And all you did for 30 minutes to an hour was, you stabbed one person and you hit one person with a knopkierie?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: On the Sunday, I beg your pardon, on the Friday, the 19th of June 1992, there was another meeting at the hostel, which was addressed by Mr Themba Khosa, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Humphrey Ndlovo also present at that meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Who else was present with Mr Themba Khosa at that meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't remember, sir, because Themba Khosa used to come to Kwamadala either with Mr Humphrey Ndlovo or just by himself.

MR BERGER: On that day he came with a senior police officer?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir, because the police had already surrounded Kwamadala, there were police officers near the main gate.

MR BERGER: Was there an attorney with Mr Themba Khosa, a woman, a white woman?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: At that meeting, Mr Khosa addressed all the residents of Kwamadala and told them to burn all the stolen property, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You remember this meeting, but you don't remember the meeting less than a week before, in fact five days before, where Mr Themba Khosa said if people come to attack you, then you must kill them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think I answered that question, sir.

MR BERGER: Mr Khosa said you must burn the stolen property because it could be evidence to the police if the people of Boipatong come and show them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I'm listening, sir.

MR BERGER: Is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that Mr Themba Khosa said that we must hide all those weapons and spears, together with the clothes which had blood on them, in order to stop the police from gathering their evidence?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, I agree with you.

MR BERGER: And then Mr Khosa told you to co-operate with the police.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: And by that he meant tell the police lies?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I do not think that this applicant can tell the Committee what Mr Themba Khosa meant by those words.   He can tell the Committee what he understood by them, but I can't see that he can tell the Committee what Mr Themba Khosa meant.

MR BERGER: I'll ask it that way then.   When Mr Themba Khosa said you must co-operate with the police after you've destroyed all the evidence, you understood Mr Khosa to mean that you must tell the police lies?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, with reference to what you're saying, I think that when Mr Khosa said what he said at the meeting, he did not direct us as to what we should do step by step, he did not direct us as to what we should do first or do second and then do whatever last.   The police were there, they surrounded the area, we could not go out to the shops to buy food, how could we then let police in, into Kwamadala Hostel?   Themba Khosa told us that we should remain calm and co-operate with the police and listen to what they had to say and let them search if they wanted to search the place.

MR BERGER: But he also told you to hide all the weapons and spears from the police?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know how you want me to put this.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Themba Khosa tell you to hide all the spears and the weapons from the police?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He did tell us to do that.

MR BERGER: He also told you to hide the clothes with blood so that the police could not gather evidence?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know what you want me to say, sir.

MR BERGER: Just confirm that please.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I had already told you, sir.

MR BERGER: How did Mr Themba Khosa know that all of this stuff had come from Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think you are asking the wrong person, sir.

MR BERGER: Was it discussed at that meeting on the Friday that "we were responsible for the attack on Boipatong, we have stolen, we have killed", was Mr Themba Khosa advised of it at that meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not hear about that at the meeting.

MR BERGER: Then, is it correct that all the property that was stolen from Boipatong, as well as the bloody clothes, were burnt to ashes in the hostel, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And this was done while the police were outside?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, there were police outside the main gate.

MR BERGER: Was this also done on the Friday, the very day of the meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know, I don't remember what day it was.

MR BERGER: Well, Mr Khosa gives an instruction on the Friday, the hostel was searched by the police shortly after that, is it correct that between the giving of the order and the search of the hostel, that all the stolen goods, as well as the bloodied clothes, were burnt?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I think that on a Thursday after the attack on Boipatong, police arrived in large numbers, they searched the place and confiscated even traditional weapons for testing, ballistic tests, to see if they were not connected to the attack in Boipatong.   What I am trying to explain is that the police would come to the hostel even before Themba Khosa arrived there.

MR BERGER: Were the TV sets and stoves also burnt in this fire, to ashes?