Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: I think it might be - subject to his convenience and anyone else's convenience it would be better to hear the applicants first.  I think you were thinking rather in terms of the doctor, weren't you, who might have been here and stood, who seems to intervene at some stage?  I think, save for her, we should proceed with the applicants.

MR RICHARD: Between the discussion in chambers and now I haven't had a chance to telephone again.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ... Mr Dumakude doesn't mind waiting so he can hear what other people may have to say before he is called to give evidence, okay?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, may I rearrange the order of the applicants?

MR RICHARD: I would object to that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well we were going to take the adjournment at half past eleven, would it suite you if we take the adjournment now and you can sort matters out and discuss it with your colleagues?

MR KOOPEDI: That's okay with me.

MR RICHARD: My opinion in the matter is I would like to see Tshabalala called next, in the order that they appear on the cover sheet.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not necessarily the order chosen by them, that is an arbitrary order which is not if you will look, in the order of the numbers, Makhubu is 5311 and Tshabalala is 5312.  If we go by that we change the order, so I think we'll let him choose his ...

MR RICHARD: As the Chairperson pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now till eleven thirty and we will then continue again.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: AM 5311/97

ADV SANDI: Will you please raise your right hand to take the oath?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: (sworn states)

MR KOOPEDI: May I then proceed on the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter, the amnesty application for the killing of Sicelo Dhlomo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: May I just ascertain on what channel the witness is, apparently he has a problem?

ADV SANDI: It should be channel 3 I think.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you confirm that this killing happened in January 1998?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is true.

MR KOOPEDI: Now at this stage were you a member of any political organisation?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Which political organisation?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was a member of Soyco.

MR KOOPEDI: Now is it correct that you were at some stage, I believe during 1987, recruited into a unit, an underground unit which was commanded by the first applicant?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct, it was in 1986, not '87.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the deceased, did you know the deceased Sicelo Dhlomo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I knew him.

MR KOOPEDI: How did you know him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Firstly I knew him as an activist who used to attend Pace College and he was a member of Soyco.

MR KOOPEDI: We've heard evidence that Sicelo became a member of your unit, is that correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Can you recall when this was?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Around July 1987.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly explain to this Honourable Committee the circumstances that led to Sicelo's death.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I can explain is that the reason that I shot Sicelo was because he was an informer.

MR KOOPEDI: After Sicelo joined your unit, was there an instance where he vanished?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you recall when this was?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I think it was from late October until January.

MR KOOPEDI: Was there ever a discussion about Sicelo, that is amongst you and your cell members or unit members, during this disappearance?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, we did have a discussion.

MR KOOPEDI: What was discussed?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: After about a week had passed we met and informed the commander that we do not know where he was, we had last seen him or heard of him the time when he was supposedly arrested and we were still waiting for him to account on what had happened to him.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you know why he was arrested?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I do not know.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Let us go to the day Sicelo was killed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the commander was Mr Dube whom we heard before you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Mr Dube was the senior commander.

CHAIRPERSON: He is the commander that you informed, was he?  You see you just said "we informed the commander", is that Mr Dube?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It's Mr Dube.

MR KOOPEDI: Maybe let's also ascertain this.  In the unit, what was  your position?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was the commander of the unit, but Dube was my immediate superior.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  On the day Sicelo was killed, can you briefly tell us what happened, events leading to the ultimate death of Sicelo?
MR MAKHUBU
"What I can say is that before that sad day when we killed him, when school re-opened in January I met Sipho because we schooled together at Emdeni Secondary, and he informed me that he had seen Sicelo and he had explained to him that we have a concern about his disappearance and he must make sure that he meets me and report to me."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't quite get the names, you met who?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: You Sipho at the school and he told you he had met Sicelo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And told him he should report to you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

DR TSOTSI: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: You say that before ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: There is a problem with the speaker's mike.

DR TSOTSI: You said "I met Sipho and he informed ..." Mr Sicelo had told him, he had met Sicelo ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And he had told Sicelo to report to ...(intervention)

DR TSOTSI: To report to him.