Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Yengeni, not only you have asked me that question.  I, I, Jeff Benzien, have asked myself that question to such an extent that I voluntarily, and it is not easy for me to say this in a full court with a lot of people who do not know me, approached Psychiatrists to have myself evaluated, to find out what type of person am I.
	There was a stage when this whole scene was going on, that I thought I was losing my mind.  I have subsequently been, and I am now still, under treatment, where I have to take tablets on a regular basis.
	I have respect for every cadre of Umkhonto weSizwe as  I know the situation now.  The times when we were adversaries, was a different time.  I had the fortune or misfortune of growing up in a White environment in Cape Town.
	I did not either through my own stupidity or ignorance as long as I was one of the Whites, the privileged Whites who had an education, who had a house, I couldn't see it being taken away.  If you ask me what type of person is it that can do that, I ask myself the same question.
	Bearing in mind for want of a better explanation, if you had a bad foot and the surgeon had to cut it off to save your life, then maybe I am trying to soften my conscience by saying that is the person who I was, irrespective how dirty, how mean, how horrible it was, I would do that and it was not and I think, you and the rest of the accused, could say that for the initial interrogation that I did, the day after or the day after that or the day after that, I did not interrogate any one of you with a bad method.
	And I think all of you can say that in honesty.  My application Mr Yengeni, please tell me if I am right or wrong, my application of the wet bag method was at the initial arrest, until such times as you had against your will, revealed who your contacts were or where your arms caches were.  Could you please answer me that, is it correct?  Is it correct Mr Yengeni.

MR YENGENI: No.  Now, let me proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yengeni, could I just disturb you for a minute.  Are you going to be some time still, because it might be convenient to take an adjournment at this stage?

MR YENGENI: Yes, Mr Judge, I still want to ask a number of other questions still.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well, we will adjourn and resume at two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION AT 14H00

CHAIRPERSON: Members of the public ought to be informed that the delay in commencing at the appointed hour of two o'clock was occasioned as the result of a large number of documents being placed before the Committee for urgent consideration, relating to matters of the work of the Amnesty Committee.
	They had to be attended to and that has caused the delay and unfortunately we could not start at two o'clock.  Mr Yengeni, I am sorry if it has inconvenienced you.  You may begin.

MR YENGENI: (cont)
	Thank you Sir.  This black bag that was used for torturing me and other people, I note that even if you read the press it is being used extensively, or was used extensively by the police, including in criminal cases to get information.
	Now, before you joined the Security Branch you were involved in investigating criminal cases.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR YENGENI: Did you in any of these investigations, ever use this method to get information?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that is in non-political matters what you are talking about?

MR YENGENI: Yes, in non-political cases.  Now, this black bag, was it a property that was issued by the police to you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was not property issued to me, but normally it was referred to as a prisoners' property bag, Your Worship.  In other words, a bag used at police stations for putting loose articles of prisoners' property in.

MR YENGENI: So it was the property of the police?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, it was property of the police.

MR YENGENI: But the Security Branch used it for a different purpose from the one that it was initially, originally made for?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Am I right in assuming therefore that these would be available in just about every police station?  Every police station who had police cells in them?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

MR YENGENI: Now, you used this method on me, but before you put the black bag on my head, you blindfolded me.  Is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not hundred percent sure, but I could have, yes.

MR YENGENI: Now, I was blindfolded and then the bag was used on me.  The point, the question that I want to ask you is I have never seen this bag being used myself on any other person, even when it was used on me, I never saw it.
	And I think it would be in the interest of the public and the Commission for you to demonstrate the use of this bag.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Commissioners, it was a cloth bag that would be submerged in water to get it completely wet.  And then the way I applied it, was I get the person to lie down on the ground on his stomach normally on a mat or something similar with that person's hands handcuffed behind his back.
	Then I would take up a position in the small of the person's back, put my feet through between his arms to maintain my balance and then pull the bag over the person's head and twist it closed around the neck in that way, cutting off the air supply to the person.

JUDGE WILSON: When you say stand, did you stand astride him with your feet on the ground?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Initially feet between the arms.

JUDGE WILSON: Getting the arms spread out?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That's right.

JUDGE WILSON: And your feet ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: And if I sat down and I put my feet out, I could then maintain my balance.

JUDGE WILSON: But your feet weren't, you didn't stand on the person, you stood on the ground and then sat on him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

MR YENGENI: Now, is it possible for you to do a demonstration of how, I as a victim I would want to see what happened to me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say demonstration, I mean, has he not described it satisfactorily to you?

MR YENGENI: I also want to see it with my own eyes what he did to me.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I think the first problem is Mr Yengeni, you have to find a volunteer to play the part of the victim.  There are some people behind you indicating they will assist.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Yengeni, you have got somebody who would be prepared to assist.

MR YENGENI: If there is somebody prepared to assist, that is fine.  I think Mr Benzien, I would want him to demonstrate to me how, because as he explains it to me, I can hear his explanation, but I would want to be given the opportunity by the Commission to see what he did to me, with my own eyes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What are we going to use for the bag, the black bag?

MR YENGENI: Somebody has put a pillow in front of me, that can be used as a bag.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you make somebody available Mr Yengeni.  Mr Benzien, you are required to show Mr Yengeni.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am willing to show Sir.  Secondly I have not got a set of handcuffs and I may not be as ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please may we have some order here?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I also may not be as agile as what I was then.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yengeni, could it be done here in front of you.

MR YENGENI: Yes, a little bit further, there in the middle, so that I can see.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you lie down on your stomach please and Mr Benzien, will you show us the position you occupied.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We can't see Mr Benzien.

CHAIRPERSON: We will just have to stand and have a look.  Bring that bag.  Mr Yengeni, can you see?

MR YENGENI: Yes, but what I want to ask just as he is in that position, at what point does he release the bag for more air?  How does he know that now I am about to loose, to die, then he releases the bag?