Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I've gone on, please don't interrupt me, I'm trying to be co-operative with you.  I've gone on to sketch a scenario of how he got arrested, I'm saying that if he had made contact with Capt Botha as he claims, 4 to 6 weeks before the 7th of July and he gave them the safe-houses and he gave them information about me, Siphiwe Nyanda, Ronnie Kasrils, Pravien Gordhan, I'm saying we would have been under surveillance, I'm saying a major meeting took place on the 20th of May which was a subject of Pretoria Minute, I'm saying that the action would have been taken, it would have identified, they would have photographed me entering the Brickfield Road Flat or the Knoll.  They would have photographed my car, they would have followed me where I was going in Johannesburg and Cape Town and they would have picked up a whole network.  They would have easily smashed Vula.  So I'm saying if he was an informant, that sequence doesn't fit.  The third aspect that I'm bringing in is I'm saying that Capt Botha and Gen Steyn deny that Charles and Mbuso were tortured, that is one bit of affidavit which you said you would not challenge by Ninela who says he was present when Charles was assaulted.

MR VISSER: No, no, with great respect.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I'm saying again, it doesn't fit in with the picture of Charles as an informer.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, I must just make it absolutely clear that the allegation that Sekakane was present during the arrest of Mr Ndaba is not challenged.  That was what we were talking about.  We weren't talking about the assault.  You know that the applicants say that he wasn't assaulted.  That was never conceded.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, with due respect this morning I did not talk about Goodwill Sekakane, I talked about the assault and torture of Charles and I said that Ninela's affidavit is there, it's in the exhibits, when Ninela says that he was present and saw the assault on Charles, there was not mention of Goodwill.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Visser, just to be fair to you and everyone, I certainly gained the impression from the way you said that is conceded, that you were talking about the statement in general and its contents.

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, that would negate all the evidence given so far.  Surely it could never have been understood that that is conceded that he was assaulted for 30 minutes at C R Swart Square with great respect, but in any event, if that was what was understood by me, Mr Chairman, it was mistaken and I wish to put the record straight.  The evidence is quite clear that he was never assaulted.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That's what I said this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit, my reading, it's been a very superficial reading of it, is that he was slapped a couple of times, no torture in the normal sense of the word torture.

MR VISSER: But even that is denied, Mr Chairman.  That is also denied.  Alright, can we move on?  Is it your evidence Mr Maharaj, I'm going on to something completely different, let me withdraw that, I'd rather ask you this.  Mr Shabalala, was he military trained?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Shabalala?  Yes.

MR VISSER: Where?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Within the country.

MR VISSER: Was the equivalence of military training inside the country comparable, just as good as that received in Angola and in the German Democratic Republic?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The type of training received in Angola varied.  The type of training in the GDR would have been far superior.  There were crash courses conducted in Angola  I would say that the training we gave in some instances was superior to the crash courses but not to the regular courses.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Shabalala one of these hand-picked operatives for Operation Vula?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He was hand-picked within the country.

MR VISSER: By yourself?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I was part of the team in the hand-picking.

MR VISSER: It just strikes me as strange that you should say that Mr Shabalala was Mr Ndaba's Commander.  Are you sure of that fact?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Charles Ndaba came in on February the 4th.  You could not take a new person no matter how trained he was, and just impose him on an existing structure in a superior position.  His familiarity with the terrain, with the individuals in the terrain and the conditions in that terrain, would require him first to serve within the structure under the structure's existing command and now once more, through his activity and performance rise, but you will create a complete disruption of the Machinery if you took Mbuso Shabalala who was heading a Machinery and put Charles there and just said "here's a stranger and he's now in charge".

MR VISSER: Did that also apply to the top command, such as yourself?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No Sir, I belonged to the National Executive and was sent in with a specific mandate and I did not establish my authority by saying "Lusaka told me I'm in command", I earned my stripes by getting the loyalty of the cadres through the leadership that I offered them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You gave evidence about a fall-back date and you said that the arrangement was for Ndaba and Shabalala to meet on Friday the 6th of July 1990, is that correct?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I think I said that there was a meeting that we tried to track down that was scheduled between Ndaba and others in the structure for the 9th.  He hadn't fulfilled that appointment.

MR VISSER: Yes, I see.  But did you not refer to a meeting that was scheduled between Shabalala and Ndaba, did I misunderstand that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I said that they were supposed to be working together that weekend and that to the best of our reconstruction they were supposed to have met that Sunday afternoon.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And I said that if the meeting did not take place there would always be a fall-back arrangement.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, I misunderstood you.  I thought that you meant that the Sunday was the fall-back date.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Well, I just wanted to remind you of the evidence of Botha.  Botha said that he was informed by Ndaba that his fall-back date for the meeting with Shabalala was Tuesday the 10th?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Could be, but it would - all I was making is that fall-back dates are very close to each other.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright, no problem.  Now coming back very briefly to this whole question of Goodwill Sekakane, your evidence was that the fact that he assisted in the arrest of Ndaba was concealed by Botha.  Do you remember saying that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Why do you say that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Let me just, Sir I just need to turn to his statement.  Paragraph 17, Mr Botha - he is saying that when he went to CR Swart and met Charles, Ninela had arrested him.

MR VISSER: No, no, just read what the words say.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Hold on.

MR VISSER: You're wrong, Mr ...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I need protection here.  When you have summarised.

MR VISSER: It doesn't help you giving facts which are not facts of the case.

MR LAX: Sorry, let the man answer the question please.  You've asked him a question, he's trying to answer it.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You see now, once more Chairperson, I've become obstreperous and I'm going to now translate the whole paragraph so that learned counsel listens to it.

MR LAX: Please there's no need for that.  Let's just answer the question and let's get a move on.  I understand you have another engagement and we'd like to try and get you there on time.