Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we shall bear with you.

MS THABETHE: My last question to you Ms Cele is, the applicants have applied for amnesty, what is your response to that?

MS E Z CELE: I wouldn't like them to be given amnesty because they are still lying, they are not telling the truth and I still think the sentence they were given in Court is a little, they should have got more than that.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

ADV DE JAGER: Can I just ask something.  Were the houses burnt on that day?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, on the 26th of December.

ADV DE JAGER: Were all the huts burnt, or were any of them left?

MS E Z CELE: One house was left.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, was Roy Cele present during the attack of Dudu Ngcobo, across the river?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, he was there.  I saw him first because he is my brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Molohlanye, do you have any questions to put to Ms Cele?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have a few questions to put.
	Ms Cele, you're saying they came and took to the Inkangala, where they asked you questions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: They took her to the hills.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	They took you to the hills, where they asked you questions.  You said, amongst the questions they asked was who told these people who killed Martin, and the next question was what political affiliation was asked and according to your evidence you say it was only Martin who was asked what political - Ernest was the only person asked what political organisation he was following.  And then you said that you didn't fall under any political organisation and they didn't ask you that question.  Were the questions specific to any people or were they just questions randomly?

MS E Z CELE: I wasn't asked of my political affiliation.  I never heard anything about politics.

MR MOLOHLANYE: But Ms Cele, you want to tell the Committee that you didn't have any knowledge of politics or anything at that time and so did ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is she saying that?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson, I withdraw my question.
	So you heard when these questions were asked to Ernest, can you tell us what was his response?

MR MALAN: She already said that she couldn't remember.  I specifically asked her that question.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Mr Malan.
	You say after you were even punished, you went down the mountain, went down the hill and on your way you met these people carrying Dudu.  Who were these people?

MS E Z CELE: The only person I saw and recognised was Thulani, the others I only saw them, but I didn't know their names.

MR MOLOHLANYE: But you said earlier in your evidence that Thulani was playing a most forward role at the hill in punishing the people.  So you were still on your way down the hill, but you met Thulani going up the mountain and carrying Dudu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that fair?  Is that fair, because you know the various stages have not been separated when she was giving her evidence-in-chief.  If you are not yet satisfied with her responses and you want to ascertain at which various stages what happened, you should be asking questions that will elicit those stages, so that they can be made clearer to you.
	Her evidence has been basically that Thulani was the one who was prominent in questioning them whilst they were at the hills, and her evidence then later, without actually giving an indication at which stage, was that later after they had been released after they had been sjamboked, as she was going down she then saw the other group in which Thulani was with Dudu.  Now you don't know how fast she was walking down the hills, or slow, and you don't know at which stage Thulani and the group left those who were at the hills to go back to the house to look for Dudu.
	Now if you want to canvass that, you must ask proper questions and lay a better foundation for you to be able to get that kind of evidence.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I withdraw the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to, just ask the right question.  You can find our for instance, whether Thulani, whether she saw Thulani whilst they were at the hills, leaving them, going back to the house, because her only evidence is that she later saw Thulani amongst the large group, coming with Dudu up the hills, as she was going down the hills to her house.

MR MOLOHLANYE: I'm indebted to you, Madam Chair.  I hoped the witness had understood that - and can you please, Ms Cele, answer on that basis.

MS E Z CELE: I couldn't see how or when Thulani left.  All I remember is that we were lying down on our stomachs, so I don't know at which stage Thulani left the hill.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did the punishment that was administered on you last, can you give an estimation?

MS E Z CELE: I think it was about 30 minutes, because they were giving us 10 lashes at a time and giving the other person a chance to give another one 10 lashes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No re-examination, Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cele, we thank you for having had the courage to come and give evidence before this Committee.  We know how painful this is for you to have to relive the events.  You may step down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS THABETHE: May I proceed?  Thank you, Madam Chair.  My next witness is Ms Happy Cele.

SKHOSAZANA HAPPY CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Ms Cele, can you tell this Committee how you are related to Amos Cele.

MS S H CELE: He is my father.

MS THABETHE: How old was he at the time of his death?

MS S H CELE: He was 79 years old.

MS THABETHE: To you knowledge, was your father an IFP member?

MS S H CELE: No, he wasn't.

MS THABETHE: Was there any political conflict in your area at Manyasene in 1989?

MS S H CELE: No, there wasn't.  No-one actually knew anything about political conflicts.

MS THABETHE: On the 24th of December, there were visitors who came to your house, were you present when these visitors came?

MS S H CELE: They arrived in the evening of the 24th of December and I left on the 25th, in the morning, the following morning.

MS THABETHE: Were you present on the 26th of December?

MS S H CELE: No, I wasn't there in the morning, I only arrived in the evening.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell this Committee what happened when you arrived at your area on the 26th of December.

MS S H CELE: When I arrived at home from work, I saw many people.  From the bus stop I saw a certain man from the Ngcobo family.  He was also a visitor at home.  They were lying down at the bus stop.

MS THABETHE: Ms Cele, can you slow down a bit for the evidence to be interpreted for the Committee Members.  Just take it a bit slow.

MS S H CELE: When I asked them as to why Nana was losing strength, she only showed me or pointed at the hill and when I looked up the hill I saw many people and they were singing.

MS THABETHE: Just hold it.  You may proceed with the interpretation, I was trying to slow her down.

INTERPRETER: They were singing.