Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I am not exactly sure, but Col Roelf 
Venter testified, I think they - he spoke about Derdepoort. 
 This rings a bell somewhere that it could have been in this 
area, the Derdepoort border post.  I have never been there. 
I am not one hundred per cent sure, but it could have been 
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JUDGE WILSON: 98

UNKNOWN: in that area.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you give us a little more indication 
where Derdepoort is?  I don't know if any of the 
Commissioners know.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it from Rustenburg on the road to 
Nietverdiend where Herman Charles Bosman lived?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, no, I think it is, if you drive to 
Zeerust you pass through Zeerust, and there somewhere to the 
right. If you turn to the right outside of Zeerust, there is 
a border post, but it is not that one, it is on a dirt road 
before you get Zeerust, in the Botswana direction.  I think 
there somewhere, there is a border post somewhere there as 
well.

ADV DE JAGER: How far is this from Vlakplaas approximately?

UNKNOWN: To Zeerust?

ADV DE JAGER: Is it in the vicinity of 2 to 300 
kilometres?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever serve in that area?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: You were never stationed thereabouts?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DE JAGER: You never investigated any routes there?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, I only once accompanied De Kock 
to Mmabato, Mafekeng.

ADV DE JAGER: (Indistinct - not translated).

UNKNOWN: He went to pay an informant from Botswana 
there.

ADV DE JAGER: When were you transferred to Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: It was the 1st of August 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: That was after you met De Kock when you 
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ADV DE JAGER: 99

UNKNOWN: arrested one of his Vlakplaas unit members for murder in 
South Africa?

UNKNOWN: That's correct, it was Almond Nofemela.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps to help the Committee Mr Chairman 
Derdepoort, as the witness has correctly stated, before you 
can reach Zeerust, there is a turn-off at the Groot Marico, 
just over the bridge, you turn right into Groot Marico and 
then it takes you through to the Swartruggens area, 
Derdepoort is just around there. It was the border of 
Botswana.

JUDGE WILSON: A very long way from Richards Bay.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, Richards Bay, we went there 
afterwards to create an alibi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you probably throw more light why you 
chose Richards Bay all the way from North West?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, it was to make sure that nobody could 
have seen us in the vicinity or in the area, because then 
they could have concluded that we were in the vicinity and 
there was an attack at the house.

ADV DE JAGER: It is approximately the farthest place you 
can come or you can go in South Africa from Derdepoort.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chair.  The morning when we 
drove away we were told for the first time that we were 
going to Richards Bay.  That's why I say we never had all 
the details of the operation, but the people in command, 
like De Kock and Basson, they knew.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you realise or were told for the 
first time that children were shot dead?

UNKNOWN: It was the evening when we went over the river 
and when we got in the vehicle, when the place blew up, it 
was said that children were also shot. I don't know who shot 
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ADV DE JAGER: 100

UNKNOWN: them, but we were told they were shot.

ADV DE JAGER: You heard after they had been shot?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The purpose for which this operation was 
executed, was to close the gateway for the terrorists into 
and out of the borders of the Republic of South Africa.  I 
would be correct in summarising the purpose in that way?

UNKNOWN: That is right.  Also to kill terrorists that we 
might have found there, but there weren't any.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And this Mr Kahn was aiding and abetting the 
terrorists.  Now when did you become aware that the person 
who was aiding and abetting the terrorists was this certain 
Mr Khan?  Was that before you were on your way to Gaberone, 
whilst things were being prepared, or were you told this 
information as you were travelling and crossing all the 
rivers full of crocodiles into Botswana?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, we were told this while we were 
at Vlakplaas.  We were told that there was a house in 
Botswana - for the purposes as I have already explained - 
which had to be blown up and eliminated.  But I didn't have 
any source files from Zeerust or the Western Transvaal.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who told you, was it Marthinus Ras Jnr?

UNKNOWN: It might have been either Ras or De Kock, but I 
think it would rather have been De Kock.  He was our 
commander and he would have told this to us.  He would have 
told us that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you think it relevant at that stage to ask 
for more details about Mr Kahn to find out more about his 
marital status, to find out more about who the occupants of 
the house were?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, I never received orders from De 
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SISI KHAMPEPE: 101

UNKNOWN: Kock with regards to covert offensive or defensive 
operations.  Because he had been the commanding officer and 
liaised with us, as well as with security head office, I 
never questioned this. I believed that it would have been 
proved by head office and police and that those people would 
have made sure that the information is correct. I never 
asked questions.

JUDGE WILSON: You felt no responsibility to do that?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, my seniors - I believed my 
seniors would have done that.

HASSAN MALL: I just want to clear up a point which worries 
me too.  When the decision to attack this house and property 
was made known to you, were you told specifically that there 
were going to be terrorists in that house at the time you 
were going to attack, or was that a matter of no concern?  
You knew that there was a house, you knew that there was an 
owner and according to you, it was known that that owner 
provided succour to terrorists and so on, and so it didn't 
matter whether there were terrorists or not, you were going 
to blow up this house, irrespective of - even though there 
were no terrorists there?  Was that the plan?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I was brought under the impression 
that there might have been terrorists there.  But the house 
had to be blown up.

HASSAN MALL: There might have been terrorists and even if 
there were no terrorists the house had to be blown up.  
That's the point.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, the place had to be destroyed so 
that it could not be used again in the future.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, so even if there were no terrorists, that 
house and the family that occupied this house, had to be 
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HASSAN MALL: 102

UNKNOWN: eliminated, had to be killed.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Captain on page 69, you say that - I might 
have missed something here - the purpose of the operation 
had been to eliminate a shop and a large business.  Is this 
what happened eventually?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, it must read the house.   The people 
weren't sleeping in the shop, the house had to be blown up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am told that in your evidence, you added 
"and the house". In other words it would have said that the 
aim of the operation was to eliminate "a house, a shop and a 
large business".

UNKNOWN: What I meant to say was that it was a business 
complex, there was a shop, but the house at the business 
complex, I mean, the house had to be eliminated.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But there must be a shop and then a business 
premises in which people would not be sleeping, people would 
be sleeping in the house.

UNKNOWN: That is what I meant.  Let's say it was a 
smallholding with a shop and a house next to it on one 
premises, the house was next to the shop.