Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-30

BONAKELE BHAYI: I saw those items at the roadblocks when we were surrendering that firearm.

MR KINCAID: So you didn't see who took it from Mr Hansel?

BONAKELE BHAYI: No I didn't see who took them from Mr Hansel.

MR KINCAID: It was asked by the Chairman of Rhandile whether when you went to attack the farmers you envisaged that the weapons that you had with you, the firearms that you had with you, would possibly be used in the attack, the intimidation of the farmers.  What's your view of that?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Our policy when we left the community was that we did not, there was no need for us to use those firearms because the policy of the African National Congress doesn't encourage the killing of the people so it was not our aim, what happened there was not our aim.  I also had a 9 mm with me but I didn't use it.

MR KINCAID: So what you're saying, it wasn't your initial objective, you didn't go out there with preconceived intentions of killing and of shooting farmers?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes, that is like that.

MR KINCAID: But do I understand you correctly to be disputing the possibility that in the heat of such an attack, such a raid, such an action as it's been referred to, resort to the firearms was a possibility?  Not necessarily to kill but certainly to intimidate?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes we would have used the firearms to intimidate, not to shoot.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy in his affidavit tendered an apology to the victims of these attacks, do you likewise echo that apology?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes that is correct, I also apologise to the victims for what happened to them and I don't see some of them so I'm worried because they are not here.  I wanted them to be here when I'm testifying.

MR KINCAID: Can you confirm the contents of your confirmatory affidavit, Bonakele?  The affidavit that you signed in April of this year?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KINCAID

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kincaid.  I assume no questions, Mr Clarke?

MR CLARKE: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Bhayi, during the incidents that you've testified to, were you and your cousin Rhandile together or were you just part of the group separately?

BONAKELE BHAYI: We were not together but I was present, I took part in whatever what was happening there.

MS PATEL: And how did you become involved in let's start with the Hansel incident?

BONAKELE BHAYI: I became involved because I heard the discussions that we heard because it was said that we wanted weapons and I saw that because this was going to liberate us from our situation so I decided to take part.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You stated that you saw some of the goods that were in fact stolen, you said that they were then surrendered at the roadblock.  Can you tell us, the roadblock that you referred to, was this immediately after the attack on Mr Hansel, did everybody gather there again?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes we all went there.

MS PATEL: Okay and I know this happened a long time ago.  Can you recall whether any of the other items that you haven't mentioned were handed over.

BONAKELE BHAYI: What was handed over it was a firearm and the military uniform, there was nothing else that was handed over.

MS PATEL: Okay and to whom was it handed over?

BONAKELE BHAYI: We handed them over to the comrades that were there, I don't remember actually who was given because it was dark in the community, there were no lights.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you tell us why these goods were handed over to the rest of the comrades who were there?  Was there a decision taken by the community prior to these incidents taking place that all goods retrieved must be handed back?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Things that we found from the farmers we had to hand them over to the roadblock and from there they would be handed forward to our commanders.

MS PATEL: Who were your commanders?

BONAKELE BHAYI: It was Umfana Green and Rhandile Maneni.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you tell us whether there was a specific instruction that no one was to be killed, none of the farmers were to be killed on these operations?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes, there was such an instruction and most of knew that if you were under the ANC there was no policy to kill.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Were there any decisions taken as to how the farmers should be attacked?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes there were those decisions.

MS PATEL: Can you please give us the details of that decision?

BONAKELE BHAYI: We decided that when we were going to the farms there would be a sign that would make a person that was inside to come out even though that person was not able to see us.

MS PATEL: What kind of sign are you referring to?

BONAKELE BHAYI: For example throwing stones on the roof of the house.

MS PATEL: Okay and then?  What would be the next step?

BONAKELE BHAYI: If that failed, throwing stones failed, we would try to make means to go to the door and knock at the door and use a right approach.

MS PATEL: What do you mean by a right approach?

BONAKELE BHAYI: We wouldn't go there and kick the door without knocking.

MS PATEL: Alright and then hopefully the farmer or whoever would open the door but if he doesn't would any decision be taken as to how you would proceed?

BONAKELE BHAYI: If he doesn't open the door whilst we were there we'd make noise at the windows and while he was concentrating on the windows we would then open the door.

MS PATEL: And what would happen once you're inside?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Inside we'd look for weapons.

MS PATEL: And what was meant to happen to the occupants of the house while you were or the group was looking for weapons, what decision was taken in terms of that?

BONAKELE BHAYI: They would leave and go and stay in town to join other people, other white people in town.

MS PATEL: Okay so are you saying that there was a clear instruction that no one was to be injured?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and in terms of getting the farmers to move out and go to the town would they merely be told that this is what you wanted from them?

BONAKELE BHAYI: After searching for the weapons or looking for the weapons we would leave that message.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Now you can you tell us where the ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Can I come in here Ms Patel just to get some clarity?  Mr Bhayi, how were you to deal with the farmers in the event of them resisting this search for weapons, was there any instruction there?

BONAKELE BHAYI: We trusted our approach, we thought that they would understand.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Thanks.  Was there a system in place whereby you would have to report back to either Mr Green or Mr Maneni after each operation or perhaps somebody else?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Yes we had to report but if Umfane Green was not available there would be other people available that we could report to.

MS PATEL: Okay.  What is your comments on - there was an allegation made that farmers were sent notices warning them or instructing them to leave their farms prior to these attacks taking place.  Do you bear any knowledge of these notices that would have been sent out?

BONAKELE BHAYI: I only heard about that about the letters that were supposed to be sent to the farmers.  Those were people's ideas in the meeting so I'm not sure whether that happened or not.

MS PATEL: Okay, given that your mandate was clear how do you reconcile your mandate with what had in fact taken place at all of these attacks, that people were in fact injured, shot at?

BONAKELE BHAYI: Those happened because of the conditions or the situation at the time.  They didn't go out as we had discussed.