Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: From an explosives point of view, that means that you have to check to see that all the explosives in the area, whether they had been stabilised and whether it is safe and secure and to dispose of it, to a safe place further away.

ADV VISSER: For example, you would have to see whether hand grenade hadn't perhaps been hit by a bullet?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.  A hand grenade with its pin removed, or whatever or if the mechanism hadn't quite worked.

ADV VISSER: That would include the possibility of a hand grenade in somebody's hand?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, that is correct.

ADV VISSER: Before you started securing the area, what were your observations of the people in the combi and or outside the combi?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: To the left of the combi there was a person laying next to the door of the combi.  Nothing was visible at that stage, towards his feet, another person lay on the ground almost on top of the first one's feet.
	An AK47's barrel protruded from his body, partly.  Next to them in the sand was a F1 hand grenade.  And I focused my attention on these two people first.  I obtained a rope, it is a piece of nylon rope that had been in one of the vehicles, I think it was about five to six metres long.
	And that was used to prevent us from having to actually handle the bodies.  I first attended to the people outside the combi.  I tied the rope round the corpses body or leg and then pulled him off and rolled him over.
	It was an AK which was underneath him.

ADV VISSER: An AK47?  An automatic gun?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.  The second person, I also flipped him over, using the rope and he was laying on top of a Makorov pistol.  The pistol wasn't visible earlier on and only became visible after I had turned him over.
	I then attended to the people inside the minibus.  The sliding door of the bus was open and flat on the floor of this minibus there was a corpse and I fastened the rope to his leg.
	I stood back and rolled him over and when the person fell out, turned over, a hand grenade fell out of the bus along with him.  And when the hand grenade fell out, I got a fright, but I immediately saw that the pin was still intact.
	I approached and when I unfastened the rope, I heard the person saying something, muttering something and he was shivering.

ADV VISSER: So he was still alive, he showed signs of being alive?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.  I immediately shouted, here is somebody who is still alive.  Captain Erwee and other people, whom I can't remember took the person from me and they left with him.
	And I continued attending to the bus.  I can't remember where the next person was.

ADV VISSER: Yes, maybe we can cut it short.  You removed the other bodies from the combi and you secured the bus?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: And also the scene?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: What is the next thing which you did?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I took the explosives and the bags in which they were, in the direction of the casper, I moved in that direction into the bushes, I was alone and I unpacked the bags and saw that all the grenades and limpet mines and so forth, was secure, they hadn't perhaps been damaged or hit in any way, and were unstable.
	I was still busy doing that when somebody came along.  There were other people in the bush as well.  Radio operators were also in the bush.  Somebody came along and said that we can start withdrawing.

ADV VISSER: Before you continue.  With my learned friend's cooperation, would you perhaps look at a photograph which will be shown to you and then I want to ask you if that which was photographed there corresponds with what you found that day in and around the combi?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure what the position is, whether that photograph can be handed in.  Perhaps my learned friend, Mr Black, can inform you whether you can have that photograph or not.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, we have difficulty in handing that photograph at this stage.   Mr Malapa the Investigating Officer has to return them to the finger print unit from whom he got them, we haven't got permission to part with these photographs.
	A photocopy could be made as opposed to - and already although not in that form, photographs of weaponry do exist in the inquest report next to each body.  Should the Committee be satisfied with the photostat copy of that photograph?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know of what value they are to us, but the point is if you hand them in to us and they turn up to be of some value, then you will have difficulties in telling us that we mustn't accept them, someone else wants them somewhere in Pretoria.
	You have got to decide whether you want to use those photographs, but I mean if you use them and they acquire some property value to our proceedings, we may have to keep them.

MR BLACK: This is what I am trying to say.  My learned friend wishes to hand this in, that one in, but I just want to point out to him and to the Committee that photographs, if the purpose of it is to show that these people were armed, photostat copies of the weaponry already appear in the inquest report.  So I do not in my submission, feel that it is necessary to hand and use that particular photograph.
	That is simply a photograph of all the weaponry together, whereas the photographs which appear in the inquest purports to be the weaponry found in respect of each victim.  In this regard, I refer to Section C, pages 3 to 8.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is common cause that they were armed.

MR BLACK: Yes, and as I say pages C, 3 to 8, sets out all the weapons, so unless my learned friends insists in using these photographs, that photograph, then I would appreciate it if it could be returned.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, the only point is that there are six copies of that photograph.  Identical copies, I thought that one of them could be made available to you, but if there is a problem with that, I am not insisting that it is going to be handed in.
	I think it just gives the Committee a proper idea of the fact that these people were heavily armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want this photo back Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes, I would appreciate it if it could be returned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have seen the photograph.  It shows six AK or what appear to be six AK47's with a number of magazines and ammunition and some hand grenades.  What else is there Mr Swarts on the photograph?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Mr Chairman, there are AK47, Makorov pistols, ammunition, magazines, F1 hand grenades, hand grenades and mini limpet mines.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Is this the ammunition or similar ammunition which you found in and around the combi?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: Did you find spent cartridges somewhere?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: In the combi on the floor, I found a couple of empty AK47 cartridges, bullets.  I can't say what the exact number were but perhaps six to eight.

ADV VISSER: What is the next thing that happened to you after you returned from the bush after securing the area?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I loaded the bags with the explosives and weapons into a car, into a vehicle.  I think it was myself and Warrant Officer Bressler and we left for Alldays police station.

ADV VISSER: What kind of vehicle was this?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I think it was a Land Cruiser.

ADV VISSER: A bakkie?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: A bakkie.

ADV VISSER: Did you receive any instructions from Mr Erwee on the scene, other that you should secure the scene?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.