Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I call the first applicant, Jabulani Tunene Ncokwane.  Could I just request that the microphone be moved.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: (sworn states)

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ncokwane, you also made an application to the Truth Commission, on the prescribed form and you made this application in Zulu, and it is signed on the 23rd of October 1996, whilst you were still in Durban prison, Westville Medium B, is that correct?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And this original, well the copy of the original appears on pages 26 to 36 of the bundle, and the translation of that appears from page 18.  Do you confirm the contents of this statement, this application?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Mr Wills sorry to be pedantic, the statement doesn't actually appear to be signed, but his confirmation in any event will suffice.

MR WILLS: Can I just - whereabouts were you born, Mr Ncokwane?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I was born in Twalome.

MR WILLS: And what standard of education do you have?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I have never been to school.

MR WILLS: When were you born?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: In 1969.

MR WILLS: And have you been employed?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS: You say in your application that you joined the ANC, or you were a member of the ANC, when did you become a member of the ANC?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: 1992, in early 1992.

MR WILLS: And which branch of the ANC were you a member of?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: At the time the branch had not been launched.

MR WILLS: You subsequently became a member of the Umgubaba branch, is that right?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now why did you become a member of the ANC, what made you choose the ANC as a party?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I decided to join the ANC because I liked it and it was an organisation that I felt was helpful in fighting for the rights of black people in this country.

MR WILLS: Now you've heard about what the second applicant, Mr Shange, said about your involvement in this attack.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm that what he said in regard to what you did was correct?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: He says that you actually shot persons from the inside of the bus, do you confirm that?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: Now do you confirm the other aspects - or should I rather say, is there anything that Mr Shange has said about the way this attack occurred or the way it was ordered, that you disagree with?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No.

MR WILLS: One of the points of contention concerns the role that Master Shange played in this attack.  Now ...(intervention)

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I also have a problem with what has been said.

MR WILLS: What ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Shange, please don't talk to the witness when he's giving evidence.

MR WILLS: Let me ask the questions, Mr Ncokwane, I think it will be easier.  Did - to your knowledge, did Master Shange order this attack or was it agreed between the persons who were going to perform the attack?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: He never ordered to go launch the attack, we agreed amongst ourselves that we should attack.

MR WILLS: Now you made in a confession to a magistrate in connection with the attack, you indicate that Shange, Master Shange was the person who ordered this attack.  You say - I think this has been handed to you, I'm referring to what has been marked in the trial in this matter, Exhibit S, I think if we can made this Exhibit C for our purposes.  You say that, and I quote, that Master said to you
"There is something that I want you comrades to do."
He said he wanted to select six people to do that thing.  He said those people were:
"Myself, Jay, Jomo Mseleku, Sonny Ngcobo and Matandene."
And basically you go on that he told you that he wanted you to stop a bus and kill males and ...  Now why did you make this statement, why do you say that in this statement?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: The police told me to make such a statement.

MR WILLS: Can you just elaborate, what do you mean by that?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: The police asked me if I knew Master and I said yes, I knew him and they told me that for me to be freed, I should actually say that Master had ordered us to do or to carry out this attack.

MR WILLS: And do you know the names of those policemen?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And who are they?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I remember van Vuuren.

MR WILLS: Now you were brought before a magistrate and the magistrate, amongst other things, indicated to you that you were free to say anything that you liked and that he was not part of the police.  And it seems that the only person who were in the room when you made this statement was the magistrate and the interpreter and yourself, the police were not there.  Can you explain why in those circumstances you still made this statement?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: When I entered the room the police were outside and I was intimidated because they had told me that if I change my story they would kill me.

MR WILLS: Now why did you get involved in this attack, what was the purpose in you conducting this attack?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: The reason why - are you asking, do you want the reason why I got involved in the attack?

MR WILLS: Yes, I want to know what was the purpose in you attacking these people on the bus.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: The reason was that we return to our homes where we had been chased out.

MR WILLS: Were you one of the ANC persons who was chased out of that area?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Aren't you from Twalome?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, but at that time I was staying at Mashiwane at my aunt's place.

MR WILLS: I refer to page 38 of the record and your statement of the political objective to be achieved, you say
"Our political objective was to achieve an environment where there wouldn't be discrimination ..."
...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, page 38 isn't his statement, that's Mr Shange's statement.

MR WILLS: Oh, I'm sorry, I'm mistaking it.  If you would just bear with me.

MR LAX: Page 20, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  If you would just bear with me for a moment.

MR LAX: It's also partly contained at the bottom of page 19, under nature and particulars.

MR WILLS: Ja, you say that there was the, that you committed this offence because of the violence in the area, can you just expand on that for the Committee?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: There was violence in the area, but I am not aware of all that happened because I was from Twalome, but when I arrived in the area I discovered that all the comrades had been chased out.  I thereafter left the area and went to join them at Umgubaba.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm that during the attack the women were allowed to get off the bus and they weren't attacked?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you also confirm that the same happened to people in other areas, from other areas, that they were allowed to get off the bus and escape?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: You say at page 24, that
"We were fighting for the rights of the black people who were oppressed.  I know that the ANC does not kill, but we killed because we were forced by the situation, where we were being killed without a place where we could voice this out, if one remembers well."
Is that correct?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: When you say you were fighting for the rights of black people who were oppressed, what did you mean?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: We were fighting for the right to return to our area from which we've been chased out by the IFP.

MR WILLS: Now you were arrested some months after the incident, in fact a month after, you were arrested on the 18th of May 1992, is that correct?