Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, let's just take a few instances.  The burning of the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela, do you remember you applied for amnesty for that?  That is bundle C, page 12 Mr Chairman and bundle A, page 41.  Do you remember that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: Now, let me tell you that Mr Motsamai also applied for amnesty in regard to which seems to be the same incident.  That is bundle A, page 158 Mr Chairman, and bundle A, page 146.
	Now, what I want to put to you is this, who gave you instructions to go and attack the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The instructions came from Colonel Coetzee and then they would follow the protocol.  He would tell other officers who were senior to us like Ramoseu.  Everybody knew how the instructions of communications were working in terms of instructions.
	The clinic was bombed after Ramoseu reported, so the person who gave instructions is Coetzee, Mamome, Ramoseu and we knew therefore that we had to bomb that clinic.

MR VISSER: Were you personally present when Coetzee gave the instruction or were you not personally present?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If you may understand well, Coetzee said it after he was given a report from Ramoseu that the clinic was used as a safe house for comrades.  Then he decided that we should bomb that clinic.  I was present, I knew I was working with Ramoseu, we would go with him to Brandfort and come back.

MR VISSER: I see.  So you were present when the instruction was given by Coetzee, is that the short answer?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The report was given in my presence, then Coetzee said if the clinic was used as a base for comrades, therefore it should be bombed.  I was present after he received the report of the activities within the clinic.

MR VISSER: Who else was present?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I speak about my report and Mamome and Tsoametsi.

MR VISSER: Mamome and Tsoametsi?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: And Bester.

MR VISSER: And Bester?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We reported from Brandfort.

MR VISSER: Now at the risk of standing corrected again, can I refer you to page 19 in front of you, that is page 41 of the record, Mr Chairman, and I want to put to you that at that page, unless I made another misreading mistake ...

ADV DE JAGER: I will make sure that you are not.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, I have got to put it as I've got it and I am putting it to you that you did not mention Mr Mamome there.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Even though I haven't spoken about Mamome.

MR VISSER: You have just spoken about Mamome a moment ago.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said Bester, Ramoseu.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Was Mr Mamome a participant in the attack?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he took part but when the clinic was attacked, he was with the Unit which Motsamai was a member.  So they had a role to play in the attack.

MR VISSER: What precisely did Mamome do?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When they took petrol bomb, he was together with Motsamai and others with a combi.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, did he throw a petrol bomb, is that what you say, Mamome?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I haven't said he has thrown a petrol bomb, I said he went together with Motsamai and others.  I was with Ramoseu and Bester when the clinic was going to be bombed.	When the role he played, when they arrived there, he was together with the Unit which Motsamai was a member.  They went there to bomb that clinic.

MR VISSER: Are you saying you don't know what he did?  You didn't see it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There was an incident which we were supposed to bomb the clinic on our own, that is myself, Ramoseu and Bester.
	Then there was another incident by Motsamai, Mamome and others who were in the combi, who went there to bomb the clinic.

MR VISSER: Are you now saying that the clinic was bombed on two separate occasions?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, it was bombed twice.

MR VISSER: You see, because the way we understand it from the applications of you and Mr Motsamai it appears that the house was first of all attacked and later the clinic.  And as far as we could ascertain Mr Chairman, there was an attack on the house.  It is on the same stand, it may even be adjoining buildings, but the one was used as a clinic and the other was used as a residence Mr Chairman.  The residence was attacked  between the 12th and the 13th of August 1985, 1986.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, if it is going to be their version, let him put it so to the witness.  If he disputes that the clinic was bombed twice, let him confront the witness with that.

MR VISSER: I will do that Mr Chairman.  I will do that.  I am just informing the Committee as to the evidence.
	It was either 1985 or 1986 Mr Chairman.  But what is, this is the basis of what is now being put to the witness.  I want to put to you that my understanding is that first the house was attacked ... (intervention)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, he must put his instructions, not his understanding.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Why can't he do that?  Why can't he put his understanding to the witness so that the witness can disillusion him of his understanding if it is wrong?

ADV MEMANI: As the Member of the Committee pleases.

MR VISSER: Would it be correct to say that first the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela at Brandfort was attacked and later the clinic was attacked, or does that not coincide with your understanding?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know much about the houses whether it was bombed.  The instruction which was given to us was about the clinic where it was used as a safe house.
Maybe another unit was given instructions to bomb, I don't know.  I haven't talked about the house.  I only bombed the clinic.  I took part in the bombing of the clinic.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, am I correct in the evidence which you have from your handwritten statement, page 19 before you, page 41 Mr Chairman before you, you mentioned Bester, Ramoseu and you have mentioned also Mamome now.
And you mentioned a person by the name of Brigadier Liebenberg.  Do you remember that?  It is at page 41 Mr Chairman, the second paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he mentions Colonel Coetzee as well, doesn't he?

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed Mr Chairman, he does.  He was the one that gave the instructions.

ADV DE JAGER: At the stage when the bombing took place of Mrs Mandela's clinic and house, were you already a member of the police or were you still an informer at that stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I have already made an application to be accepted in the police and it has been sent, but during that time I was going with them to work until up to the 11th when they brought me to Fountain when they instructed me about the whole process.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but you weren't a member of the police yet?  It was before you went to college and before you were appointed as a member of the police?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was a recruit by then.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Ngo, can we just investigate that because it is rather important.  Was that after you took the oath to become a policeman that you went to Brandfort to bomb the clinic of Mrs Mandela or was it before that time that you went there?
	In other words, as Mr De Jager has asked you, did you go along as an informer or did you go along as a policeman?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I went there as a policeman.  I had a gun.

MR VISSER: Who is Brigadier Liebenberg?