Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, admission was limited to the Security Branch offices.  We had a trellis work with a gate in the office right next to this sticker.  It was a fairly large office, there were various posters, T-shirts with various slogans exhibited in that office.

MR VISSER: So what are you saying, should the Committee attach particular meaning to the fact that there was a sticker with the words violence street on this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I personally didn't attach any special value to it.  It is understandable that other people may attach other values but for me as an officer at that stage it did not bother.

MR VISSER: If you found it repulsive would you have done anything about it?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes affirmative sir.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself if you wished to refer to that area in that building, refer to it as Violence Street?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No sir we referred to the Fourth and the Fifth Floors.

MR VISSER: There's a bit of a lack of clarity in what happened in 1990 as regards the occupation by the Security Branch of that building.  Can you tell us what happened?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair before 1990 the Free State was one of the few provinces or divisions at that stage which later became regions where the command structure sat with the operational structure and consequently in 1990 the administrative and the command components and the operational components were separated.  What was then known as the Security Branch Regional Office and the Security Branch Bloemfontein Branch Office and the branch office during that year was moved out of that building and the administrative component remained. As a matter of fact on the second floor where today even we have the provincial component.

MR VISSER: On which floor is that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I think today it's on the second floor.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus you tried to make arrangements for the Committee to do an investigation in loco, should they prefer to do so.  Where to did this one component move, the operational component?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: They moved to another area in Fontein Street, it's a building approximately 30 metres away.  It was the old Education Centre building and the branch office moved there and it's still there to this day.

MR VISSER: So it was still in Fontein Street?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes the entrance is there as a matter of fact.  There are two entrances, one is from Fontein Street, the other from St Andrews.

MR VISSER: You made attempts to arrange for the Committee to do an inspection.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thus far you have not been successful?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chair/

MR VISSER: Could you tell me what the  problem is for the Committee to enter a building?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable I've been informed that when the Committee wished to visit a building, in respect of that building there are certain limited access areas in terms of an agreement between Mr Mofamadi and Mr Tutu that there had to be a formal application and that a decision would then be taken in this regard.  This is what I was told on Monday.

MR VISSER: That's the end of the matter.  If Bishop Tutu addresses a request then Mr Mofamadi will say yes or no, unfortunately we couldn't take it any further than that.  We can tell you that we tried but we can't take it any further.
	This is then the evidence in chief of this witness, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Erasmus you already testified that Mr Ngo, from the time that he was transferred from Bloemfontein to Pretoria never did any work for the Bloemfontein Security Branch.  From the time that he was transferred until the day when you heard that he had been arrested for the murder of Mr Venter did you have any non-official contact with him?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes I had Mr Chair, I think on two or three occasions I came across him in Pretoria where I was involved in a court case.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did he on one of those occasions discuss the murder of Mr Venter with you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Mr Erasmus, George Musi, was he an activist at the stage just before he was murdered?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I heard the name George Musi time at the Commission, I don't know the man I don't know any background of him.

MR STANDER: So you wouldn't be able to tell us whether he had any file at the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Not according to my knowledge Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: Evidence has been led that this person apparently created a safe haven for some of the persons who were sometimes looked for at that stage.  I don't know if you have any knowledge of it.  If it was known would you say it was of importance for purposes of investigation of the security branch if he had provided a safe haven for people who were looked for because of their political activities?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes I would indeed believe there would have been a file on him.

MR STANDER: And you agree that were this the case that he had provided safe havens for people, it would be in the interests of the Security Branch possibly but not to murder but to take him out of the way?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't agree with the statement Chair.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, Mathews Msuswana, the person who was shot with the stopper gun, was he a particularly active activist?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He was reasonably active or let me rather put it this way, he was one of the well-known activists Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: Am I correct if I say he was continually monitored?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that is indeed so.

MR STANDER: Is it also so that he was arrested on numerous occasions in terms of security legislation?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I can't say on numerous occasions, I don't have personal knowledge, but he is a person who would have fallen in a category in terms of Section 50 and security regulation detentions.

MR STANDER: Do you know whether he was detained in terms of these emergency measures?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Personally I don't have any knowledge, I con only speculate.

MR STANDER: Well while we have referred to the person, I understand that he was very active when activists were buried, inter alia.  He always played a very prominent role in arranging the people attending the funeral.  Do you agree with that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't have any knowledge of that Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: I have been instructed that on more than one occasion he had so-called T-shirts printed to show the sympathy of his, or the group's to reflect that at these funerals.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes T-shirts were printed and distributed.  That is indeed so but the fact that he was responsible for these arrangements, I personally don't know.

MR STANDER: I was also instructed that while in detention at Grootvlei Prison he was informed by you personally that he had to stop this printing of T-shirts because there were so many of the so-called activists that died that he would no longer have money, or words to that effect?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chair I don't have any knowledge.

MR STANDER: Can you please tell me, Mr Makubalo, was he known to you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Chair.

MR STANDER: Am I correct if I say he was also a leader of the Group of 19, or let me put it this way, that he was identified as a leader of the group of 19 arrested at the Lesotho Border?