Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-08-01

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe before you leave that one, may I just take it further?   Did I hear you properly when you say that no-one has visited  you in prison ever since you were arrested, does that include your parents and your close relatives?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, that's correct, since I was sentenced nobody came in prison to me and that worries me a lot because I don't know whether they are still alive or not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know where your parents are presently, whether they are still at Thembe?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I don't know their whereabouts.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why should you then be so fearful for their lives when you don't even know whether they are staying at the same place, at Thembe?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Because I still believe that it's possible that one of them is still alive.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But he or she may not necessarily be still at Thembe? But you don't know whether they are still staying in the same area?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, I don't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So where is your basis for your fear then?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Because I knew the situation which I left behind after my arrest, it was between life and death at the time I was arrested.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbuyazi, you don't know whether they are still in the same area so I cannot understand the basis for your fear.

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: As I say now, that even now I still have that fear of not knowing where they are, whether they are still alive or not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now assist me to understand why even if your family was still at Thembe, why should you feel that they would be attacked merely by you appearing before this Committee?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: They could be attacked on the political basis because of the situation during that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, but why should you that they would be attacked by your appearance before this Committee today which prompted you to write this letter on the 23rd of July?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I was afraid because I thought that those who's relatives that have been injured or kids might come and say since this person has appeared before the Commission let's go back and kill those relatives of him before he comes out of prison.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Madam.  Now let's start with attack, the alleged attack number one on you, when was this?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It happened during August.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: They year please.

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do I still remember correctly that your evidence was to the fact that the three women you killed, you killed because you found at Mthembu's place and that made you believe that they are IFP members, am I correct?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, that's correct.  Those whom I killed, I found them in Mr Mthembu's house and personally I knew that they were IFP members and that's the reason why I killed them and one of them was wearing an IFP T-shirt.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the first attacked testified to by yourself, were any of these woman present?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: At the time of the attack when I was attacked, I don't remember seeing a female.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I say you don't remember seeing a female or there was no female?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I'm trying to say I didn't see any women during the attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you in fact saying there were no women during that attack?  I think it would be quite an important distinction not seeing or knowing that there were no women.

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct -  there weren't women during any of the attacks?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, there were no women.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On attack number one, were you present when this was done?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, I was around.  When I saw them coming I tried to run away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Attack number two, were you present?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: In most cases I was there at home during the day because I knew that we will not be attacked during the day, however during the evening I wouldn't be at home because that was the time where people will attack.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On the three alleged attacks, was anything done on you, were you confronted, were you attacked, were you manhandled, was anything done to you?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: During the third attack I managed to run away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Please if you could understand my question, respond to my question.  Were you manhandled, were you assaulted or anything done to you on any of the three attacks, physically?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: In all these attacks I managed to escape and run away because I was always vigilant during these attacks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want to turn to your application form, page 2 of the pages, of the bundle members of the Committee.  Yes, page 2, the very first paragraph four (Roman Letter Four) and I'm going to quote to you what you said thereon.  I was a member of the ANC and I was living at the IFP stronghold.  They tried two times to assassinate me, do you understand that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And this comes from  your application form, do you remember that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, I do remember that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now what do you mean when you say two times they tried to assassinate you, what was done to say they tried to assassinate you?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I was trying to say that while attacking, I was the targeted person so if they did find me I'm sure that they would have killed me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that the second time these people told your parents that they must tell you that they don't like what you are doing, what is it that you were doing?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I didn't attend IFP meetings, that's the reason why they used to come to my parents saying I should attend meetings, I should not absent myself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you present when this was said to your parents?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: No, I wasn't present, that's what I heard when I came back.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And when your parents told you, did they say this was an attack - are they going to talk to them?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: The way they told me they said they didn't, they  were not well treated because they were intimidated by those people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So from that what your parents told you, you made up an attack.

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I would say they were attacking because if they did find me as a person they were looking for they would have killed me.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understand they were looking for you because they wanted you to attend meetings, that's what they told your parents, is that not so?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, that's what the parents told me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that the people who attacked amongst others it was Mthembu, who else was there other than Mthembu?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I don't know the others because the known figure was Mr Mthembu.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many were there approximately?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: There were more than ten.

CHAIRPERSON: How old is Mr Mthembu?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I don't know his age however is an elder person, I would say he's somewhere about forty years of age.

CHAIRPERSON: The husband of the late Lakufu Mthembu?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I think so, he is the husband.

CHAIRPERSON: Her age was given as fifty, approximately fifty.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When after the third attack did you decide to attack back?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I didn't personally decide that I should go and attack them.  When we decided to go and attack them it was after the third time when they killed my elder brother and burnt our house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes but you're evidence is to the fact that after the third attack, yourself, Sipho, Tulani and Sebusiso that decided to attack, do you remember that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes I remember, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now I want to know precisely when after this last attack did you four decide to go and attack, two days later, a week later, a month later, a year later?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It was after the attack and only one day elapsed and we decided to go and attack.