Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we want to start the proceedings.  It is for the record, Thursday, the 2nd of September 1999 and we are continuing with the amnesty applications of Vermeulen and Nofomela in respect of Chesterville.   Ms Patel, if my memory serves me correctly, you were still busy questioning Mr Vermeulen?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.   Yes, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: (cont)
	Thank you Honourable Chairperson.   Mr Vermeulen, are you ready?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes.

MS PATEL: Fine, thank you.  Just to recap on yesterday, if I understand your testimony correctly, you and the rest of the members from Vlakplaas came up to Durban to assist with the unrest in the area.  You and Nortje, Willie Nortje, at some stage went to the police station or the army base as you say, to meet Mr Hunter, Lt Hunter, who pointed out Chesterville as the area in which there was trouble and that a possible, you know that that was one of the areas that you could concentrate on and based on that information, you then went with Mr Nortje, Mr Bosch, Mr McCarter, Mr Radebe together with some of the other askaris, you went to the graveyard first.  Is that correct so far, am I right so far in my summary of what had happened?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes Mr Chairman, that is how I recall it.

MS PATEL: Okay, then you went to the graveyard, Radebe and the askaris were given instructions to go and infiltrate, they went in, came back some time later and requested an AK47 which was then handed to them.  They then left.  You then moved off to the bridge which was meant to be the second meeting point.  Whilst you were there, you heard some gunshots going off.  Mr Radebe and company came back, reported that there was a shoot-out or a "skermutseling" as it was stated and you all went off to C R Swart police station where Mr Nortje then went and made a report to Mr de Kock about the incident.

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Now let me start off with Mr Nortje's statement, I have managed to trace the statement that was made Honourable Chairperson, it is in fact before you, it is headed "Willem Albertus Nortje, SAP Pretoria" and it is dated the 27th of June 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've got that.

MS PATEL: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want that to be marked?

MS PATEL: Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit B?

MS PATEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS PATEL: All right, thank you Honourable Chairperson.   Mr Vermeulen, if I can just take you through the information that is contained in the statement and ask for your comment on that in so far as it relates to the testimony that you have already given us.   Mr Nortje says that on the 15th of June 1986 they already received information and as a result of that information, they then went to Durban.   The purpose of going to Durban as he states in the first paragraph of the statement was
"... the investigation was regarding security matters and tracing AK47s and handgrenades."
	What is your comment on that, can you recall that this information was available to you before you in fact went to Durban?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I, myself, cannot recall it because at that stage, I was not a Section Leader, Mr Nortje was the Section Leader and most of the information would have been given to him.  He would have come back to us on a later stage, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay.  He also states further that Lt van Dyk, I would imagine that would be Paul van Dyk?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chair.

MS PATEL: Was in charge of the operation.  Did you bear any knowledge of this?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: He could have been there, I won't dispute it, but he wouldn't have been in charge, because Col de Kock was in charge of the unit.

MS PATEL: No, not of the unit, of this operation?  Is it possible?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: It is possible, yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay fine, and he says that Lt van Dyk gave him certain information and then told him to get in touch with Lt Hunter who was in fact the person who gave further information?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.   He then says that they gathered the men, he gives a list of the group that was with, and then you first went to Chesterville at about eleven o'clock that evening, and then stopped at the bridge or as he says "under the bridge", that the askaris were left there, it is only Mr Radebe and the white members who then went from there to meet Lt Hunter?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.  I think I stated that in my testimony yesterday Mr Chair.

MS PATEL: If I recall your testimony correctly, and as I have summarised it to you this morning, that it was only after the meeting with Lt Hunter that you then all moved off to Chesterville, whereas Lt Nortje says here that you first went to Chesterville, dropped off the men and then went to meet Lt Hunter?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct, we first went - what I stated yesterday, we first went to Chesterville, to that army base camp to get the information about Chesterville and then we went back, it was just the whites and one black, Radebe, Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: Hunter was in fact in Chesterville?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if I understood your evidence correctly, you testified that it was on the basis of the discussions at the police station or the army base that it was decided that you had to infiltrate Chesterville, in other words you said that was how it happened.  If the information was to this regard, you could have started at another point, the information you obtained during the discussions ...

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: If I brought the Committee under a wrong impression, I beg your pardon, but I am certain I said that we first went to this army base or the police station, there we looked at the map, they indicated that Chesterville was a flash point, we returned and from there the members were posted.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words based on the briefing you received at the army base or police station whatever, you decided on Chesterville?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, but on the information that Lt Hunter gave to us, we moved to Chesterville.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.   In that regard, let me refer you to Lt Hunter's statement, Honourable Chairperson, that is also in front of you, can we mark that Exhibit C, I think?  He says the contrary, if you look at paragraph 3 of his statement, well, let's start with paragraph 2, he says a group of you came to him and he says
"... there were various white members and one black member."
	Right, and then in paragraph 3 he states that Nortje, well, he doesn't mention Nortje's name specifically in paragraph 3, but he says the group, meaning you, you in the plural, having come there, requested information from him specifically on a certain Charles Ngcobo.  It is not the other way around, it is not a question of Hamilton having provided information generally about the unrest and sending you to Chesterville, it is about your group coming there, requesting specific information about a specific person.  What is your comment on that?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Mr Chair, that information could have come from Willie, that he got it from Mr van Dyk or wherever, but he didn't discuss it with us.  I will say that was still his own information that he had.

MS PATEL: But you were present with him during the discussion with Lt Hunter, not so?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: According to you, those discussions revolved primarily around Lt Hunter explaining to you that Chesterville was a hot-spot in terms of unrest, and not the other way around?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct, that is why we went to the army base camp, Mr Chair, to find out which place would be a hot-spot.