Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MS VAN DER WALT: I would put my problem to him.  I would like to put it to you that you and Hlaza did not act under any command of the ANC.  You were only two ordinary criminals who robbed.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I dispute that.  Hlaza was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League, he was known generally around Piet Retief.  I dispute what you are saying, we were not common criminals, I was obeying orders that as a soldier, I was meant to obey.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have just said that it was still apartheid and that you suffered a lot, but according to the ANC themselves the armed struggle was suspended in 1990?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is true that the suspension of the armed struggle was already implemented, however, the National Party and the third force continued to kill people, even the Black Cats and ascaris as well.
	During the times of negotiations the National Party wanted to make sure that the negotiations failed, so that the ANC could not undergo the elections, so that we have a government of the National Unity today.

MS VAN DER WALT: I still refer you to paragraph 13 of page 36, where you say that during that period, Mr Msibi was an active member of the IFP and the quote is then as follows:  "... and was the puppet Mayor of Tandu Ukanya."  Do you see that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please explain your question.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to know what do you mean with puppet Mayor?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: A person worked for the National Party, especially in a political sense like a Mayor, it was the Mayor who made sure that certain people were oppressed and intimidated in the township, paying for water and electricity, meanwhile we hardly got any water and electricity.
	He worked for the National Party, taking money from the people so that they buy arms and uniforms for the people, the same people that were going to kill ANC members.  This is why I was saying he was a puppet Mayor.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you for the first time arrive in Piet Retief?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It as just two weeks, but I moved from Piet Retief, Ermelo, Secunda and Davel.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you arrive for the first time in Piet Retief?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would not be able to remember because this happened a long time ago.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Msibi was killed or shot on the 12th of December, concerning that date, when did you arrive in Piet Retief?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It means that I arrived before that.

MS VAN DER WALT: How long before that date?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: About two weeks.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you leave?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: After I had shot Msibi.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you were in Piet Retief for two weeks, so you do not know at all what was going on in Piet Retief, what was going on in the Town Council, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As Hlaza was there as the Chairperson of the Youth League, I could not dispute what he had said to me, to go out and look for more detail as to what was happening in Piet Retief, I was just doing my job.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then in paragraph 14, you further say that Mr Msibi - that he trained the Makusi para-military trainees.  You do not carry any knowledge of that, it is just something that someone said or told you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have already said, I received most information from Keswa, that they were trained at Makusi Camp from Ali, therefore it meant that Ali was training these people at Makusi Camp, the Inkatha people.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you acted just on the word, or on what Hlaza said to you?  Did you say Keswa or Hlaza?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Hlaza.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you just acted on what he told you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, as my Commander.

MR BLACK: May I interrupt there, I don't want to - I think it must be a misunderstanding between my learned friend and Mr Gushu.
	Mr Gushu as I understand his evidence, he acted under the command of Hlaza, but when he did - Mr Gushu did mention Keswa and in that, he said he received information relating to para-military training of trainees from Keswa.  If that could just be ...

MS VAN DER WALT: You heard from Mr Keswa regarding the training of the people by Mr Msibi?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question, it was not interpreted properly.

MS VAN DER WALT: You say that Keswa gave you the information that Mr Msibi is training people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is what he told me when we were both already arrested, we were both in jail.  That is what he told me.

MS VAN DER WALT: So sir, when you went to go and shot Mr Msibi, you did not even have knowledge of the fact that he trained people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: When I went to shoot, I knew that he was intimidating and oppressing people.  Also that he kept Askari members and Black Chain members in his house.  I knew that.  However, the certainty I received from Keswa and Mdumzimi who worked directly with Mr Msibi.

MS VAN DER WALT: What Askari members did he give shelter to?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter thinks the witness is on the wrong channel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, what number is on this thing there?

MS VAN DER WALT: Which ascaris did he give shelter to?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Those were the people who were killing the members of ANC in the Mpumalanga region.

MS VAN DER WALT: What ascaris did he give shelter to?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, did you know the identities of these ascaris or did you just rely on information from other sources that he had ascaris there?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I solely depended on information that I used to get Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: I am sorry, Mr Gushu, is it not correct to say that for many of these things, all these kinds of information you had, you had no personal knowledge of all this, these were things that were conveyed to you by other people, your colleagues from the ANC, not so?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am still at paragraph 14.  You say members of the ANC/COSATU/SAP - I presume it should be SACP - and various organisations allying to the ANC, were being killed in large numbers.  Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I did say so.

MS VAN DER WALT: For example comrade Hlaza was killed on the instructions of Msibi and the police did absolutely nothing in following up his murder, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: According to the information I got from Keswa about the actions, the police clearly knew about Stulu Hlaza's death because the police worked with these people, gave them the authority to kill ANC people.
	They would not sentence them accordingly, because these people were supporting the National Party anyway.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to put it to you sir, that if you look at paragraph 14, is it very clear and that is what you presented to the Committee in the beginning and what you are saying in this paragraph that Hlaza was killed by Mr Msibi, you further go and say prominent ANC members and supporters such as Joseph Tebete and Andries Kumedi the present Mayor of Piet Retief were wounded as a consequence of assaults carried out upon them under the direct instructions of Msibi.
	Is that correct what you are saying there?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.  The way Keswa and Msibi spoke, it is according to how they spoke.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I am sorry to interrupt.  The Committee will recall when I was leading evidence in this respect,  I attempted and I anticipated what we are now experiencing, to put before the Committee that what is contained in there is effectively hearsay.
	You will recall Mr Chairman, I was told not to proceed or - it wasn't a ruling, but I was attempting to and I left it.

CHAIRPERSON: In any case, he said himself that he relied on all this information.