Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I understand, but at the same time I feel as the representative of Mr Menera, that it is not fair to him that certain questions should be put to him about his knowledge of criminal activities, if the purpose is not to associate him or connect him with those activities, why else should we allow this line of cross examination to  go on, I understand the concerns, I understand that Mr Phelane is a lay person, but I'm asking the Committee to sort of guide him on how he should conduct the matter. For instance, Mr Chairperson, I'm left wondering why we would sit and listen to a person simply asking questions about, do you know about the death of someone, do you know about the death of X,Y,Z?  He has referred to a gangster, he has then said what the name of the gang was, he has then told us who the people that, he's not suggesting that the people who killed the people who he's referring to, were associated with the person.  We do not know who the women who were raped are and all we have is this kind of innuendo that my client knows something about these rapes and that he was somehow associated with them.  I don't think it could be fair to the applicant.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But Mr Memani, I mean you raised that point and you made your point and the Chairperson then addressed himself to Mr Phelane, you remember on two questions, twice he asked Mr Phelane...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: What is the purpose of asking these questions?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then later he explained to Mr Phelane how he should restrict himself to an extent that Mr Phelane sort of complained that, well I'm being restricted in saying things which I wanted to say, it was precisely because the Chairperson listened to your argument and then he tried as far as it can be done at a later stage to try and direct Mr Phelane what he shouldn't ask him and what he should ask. And thereafter, after he'd indicated the parameters to Mr Phelane, and he said well Mr Phelane, I've explained the parameters to you, then you can go ahead and ask the questions, and then he went back again to say, well can I ask you for clarification, does it mean, then we started, we went back again to start again from the beginning. Surely he understood the question to be that the Chairperson has indicated to Mr Phelane the parameters of those questions and the relevance thereof.  And I think we should leave it and see whether that works.

UNKNOWN: I'm indebted to you Mr Commissioner.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Phelane you understood that the Chairperson explained to you that one can't just ask questions for the sake of asking the questions, of probing and so forth.  You should ask questions about things which you believe are relevant and on which you are subsequently  going to testify, and not just ask questions and then leave them hanging there if you are not later going to ask questions, to testify about those things. You must ask questions which you will be able to tie up as it were, when you give evidence, we shouldn't just tabulate questions here, did you kill Godoyi, no; did you kill people in Theunissen, no; and then they just remain there.  If you ask those questions, if you want to ask questions, it must be questions which you will be able to come back to later in your evidence and substantiate.  Do you understand?

MR PHELANE: I understand Mr Chair, I wouldn't just ask a person a question which I'm not going to clarify to him why I asked him that particular question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It must also be clear to us why you are asking the question, the background of it.

UNKNOWN: Can I ask you a question.  Is Mr Phelane comfortable with English?

MR PHELANE: Yes I am.

UNKNOWN: Well you were at a point where you had asked about Theunissen.  We had gone past that point, if we need to refresh you, I'm sure you will remember where you are now.

MR PHELANE: Mr Applicant, do you know anything about a Communist party which was in Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: I know nothing of the Communist Party.

MR PHELANE: How do you know that I was a member of the ANC?

N JACK MENERA: I explained this earlier. That we heard this from you personally when you related the matter to us in 1986 at Grootvlei Maximum Prison while were detained under the state of emergency together with you.

MR PHELANE: being under the state of emergency Mr Chairman, does it mean that I was a member of the ANC or the Communist Party, because I was detained under the state of emergency.  Is that how he put it?

JUDGE WILSON: As I understood his answer, he said you told them in Grootvlei that you were a member of the ANC.  Is that what you said?

MR PHELANE: Why should you come and tell the Commission just lies here Mr Applicant?

N JACK MENERA: Which lies?

MR PHELANE: ...(indistinct) against me, just a bunch of lies.

N JACK MENERA: Mr Morgan Phelane, I'm sorry, if you ask a question, ask your question, then I'll give an answer.  If you accuse me that I'm lying, I've mentioned so many things about you. Now be specific, say Jack you said this and this about me, then I'll give an answer to that effect.  If you say I'm lying about you, about things that I've said here, I don't know which ones are you specifically referring to, because I am telling you personally told us that you are a member of the ANC/SACP.  We heard that from your mouth.

MR PHELANE: Mr applicant, you know that when I was at Grootvlei, I was detained with Caleb Mustabi, one sided, not with you youngsters.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he detained with you or were the older people detained separately.

N JACK MENERA: He was in a single cell but during the exercise time we met with them.

MR PHELANE: Mr Chairman I'm very sorry, I do not want to come and waste the Commission's time here with a bunch of lies ...(indistinct).

JUDGE WILSON: You don't want to ask any more questions?  Very well.

MR PHELANE: It's a waste of time.
NO MORE QUESTIONS BY MR PHELANE

JUDGE WILSON: Do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson before I proceed with my  questioning, I think the best would be later on to just allow Mr Phelane to lead his story because I think it is difficult for him to separate...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: If he's going to give evidence, yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes he is.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHA

UNKNOWN: Mr Menera when you committed the act of killing Susan Phelane on 14th July 1991, were you a registered member of the ANC?

N JACK MENERA: Yes, at that time in 1985, there was no organisation issuing membership cards.  To be a member of MAICO which is Matemasu Youth Congress, who would know you by merely attending meetings and your being active, then we would know, this is a comrade, but there were no membership cards issued for membership to those parties.

UNKNOWN: Are you talking about 1985 or 1991 or both?

N JACK MENERA: Which year were you referring to?

UNKNOWN: By 1991 when you murdered Susan Phelane?

N JACK MENERA: Yes I was a member of the ANC and since then I've been a member of the ANC.  It goes back to 1985. Mr Morgan Phelane knows me very well.  He didn't hear this from other sources.

UNKNOWN: Besides Mr Phelane, can anybody else who is an official of the ANC verify that you were?

N JACK MENERA: The whole community of Brandfort knows very well where Jack Menera belongs or which organisation he belongs to.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you ever had a membership card?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you still got one?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.  I lost my membership card in Cape Town, I remember I received my membership card in 1991 and it went missing in Cape Town.  I had the ANC Youth League membership card.   I'm not just a street member, I am known member.