Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

MR PRETORIUS: Do you refer to Mr Von Eggerdy?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, I read his evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: Even if you accept the evidence of Mr Von Eggerdy, Mr Von Eggerdy testified that the very first shots that were fired was fired by the guards on the corner of King George and Plein Street and those shots were fired directly at the crowd and they fell on top of him and even past him immediately after those shots were fired?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I accept that that's what he testified to, he heard gunshots coming from us first.

MR PRETORIUS: So even if we accept his evidence, even if he had the impression that they were attacking something we would get to that later, the shots that were fired still were fired by the ANC guards themselves first at the marchers and there were no warning shots, they were fired directly at the marchers, do you accept his evidence?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I can just say my recollection is there was warning shots, I gave the order for warning shots, warning shots were fired by V.J. Rama and that's how I recollect events.

MR PRETORIUS: But then now you've repeatedly also accepted that your recollection has been proven wrong?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There's objective evidence to say things didn't happen how I saw, as how I saw it, but that's how I saw it.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, how far were the marchers from the guards at the corner of King George and Plein Street when you gave the order to repel the marchers, in other words, not to the warning shots, to repel the marchers?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think my evidence in the inquest after seeing the map, it was about 40 metres by the pharmacy.

MR PRETORIUS: For the record purpose, you originally testified that they were 15 to 20 metres from you, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct my lord, when I drew the statement I was sitting in the office of my attorneys and when recollecting it seemed much closer but I knew it was at the pharmacy.  When I saw the map I pointed to the pharmacy and according to the scale map the pharmacy was 40 metres so the impression in a lawyer's office and a real scale map and I rectified that in front of the learned Judge in the inquest.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, in the inquest you first pointed out in the court as well, how far they were away from you before we got to the fact that I cross-examined you on the exact distances, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's right I pointed the back of the court if I remember correctly.

MR PRETORIUS: So just for the record purposes, your recollection was proven wrong in that respect as well?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I accept there's many of my recollection which is not correct, but that's what I recollect on that day.

MR PRETORIUS: As a fact we know now that the pharmacy you refer to is situated practically on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It's 40 metres away from the corner of Plein Street.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, please answer the question.  I referred you to the corner of King George and De Villiers Street and I stated to you that that pharmacy is situated practically on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It's not on the corner.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Pretorius, we're looking at a - we were given a diagram page 254 Bundle B, from that diagram it's clear that the pharmacy is towards the middle of the block. Granted, closer to De Villiers Street than Plein Street, but it's certainly not on the corner, it's the third shop from the corner.

MR PRETORIUS: Honourable Member, this map was drawn at a later stage, it was not the position as on the date of the 28th March 1994.  At that stage the pharmacy was situated on, practically on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street.  There is video material available which is available on video 34 and if one looks at that video material it was clear that the pharmacy was situated on the corner.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, can I confirm that that is correct - that was drawn up by an architect at the time of the inquest in 1997 and there really to give a layout of the streets and the location of the pillars the pharmacy was not in precisely that position.

MR LAX: Thanks for that explanation.

MR PRETORIUS: I've also now got a photo in my possession which was one of the exhibits which was handed in at the inquest which indicate that the pharmacy is on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street if the Chairman and Honourable Members would have - would want to have a look at it I could now present it to them?

MR LAX: No, I'm happy, I accept that I was just confused by this subsequent plan.

CHAIRPERSON: You accept that the pharmacy was practically at the corner of King George and De Villiers Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's probably correct Mr Chairman, I think my evidence in the inquest was, when I was shown this scale map -that's where I pointed to where the marchers were more or less in terms of that scale map, that was my evidence.  I was not referring to where the pharmacy was then, they showed me the map and I pointed to the learned judge that this where they were more or less.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kruser, it still begs the question, do you now accept that the pharmacy was situated as on the 28th March 1994, practically on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: And that you now accept that the marchers were in the vicinity of that pharmacy when you gave the order to shoot?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I tried to say when in the inquest the map was shown to me I pointed out to the learned Judge round about the pharmacy on that map, the specific map in front of the Committee, where the marchers are when I gave the order to shoot.  I didn't say where the pharmacy was then, I said on that map, that's where I drew the deduction from.  I was not referring to the 28th I was referring to the map on the pharmacy in terms of the distance.

MR PRETORIUS: We'll get back to that later but then even what according to what you state now, it was then explained by you that everything was measured, that the marchers were at least 40 metres away from you when you gave the order to repel them?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Based on that scale I acceded to that in the inquest.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, you at the inquest weren't afforded the opportunity, I'm now going to afford you the opportunity to explain why none of the marchers that were shot and killed were shot from the front.  They were either shot from the back or from the side.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think firstly, maybe I'm corrected, it's not -that's not entirely true.  One - there is evidence in terms of the ballistics - one of the marchers could have been shot from the front - that's the first thing.  I think even in my application for amnesty I accept that we probably fired for much longer than what I thought we fired and we could probably have ceased the fire much earlier.  I accept that's probably the reason why they were shot in their back.

MR PRETORIUS: Can you give an indication which marcher you referred to that was shot from the front?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't have the medical evidence in front of me but there's one marcher which was shot with an AK from the front and the possibility from the ballistic evidence is that there was gunfire from the top of Nando's building opposite Shell House, there's even evidence that there was gunfire, AK gunfire from the top of Nando's so there is that possibility.

MR PRETORIUS: Do you even from what you state now accept that none of the people killed were shot from the front facing the corner of King George and Plein Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Besides the one, I accept ja.