Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

CHAIRPERSON: Temporary jobs.  And the one in 1977?

WITNESS:   Still at school, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What standard, Mama?

WITNESS:   She's doing matric.

CHAIRPERSON: The one in 1980?

WITNESS:   Doing Standard 6, Sir

CHAIRPERSON: 1982?

WITNESS:   The one born in 1982 was supposed to be doing Standard 7 but I took time before I could send him to school but this one that was born in 1982 is doing Standard 6.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Do they have any father?  Is the father still living?

WITNESS:   Their father passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I'll be coming back to other questions.  And so you were with these children in Zimbabwe and you came back in - when did you come back?  1993?

WITNESS:   I came back in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Can you just give us the story about the death of your son?  Tell us the story starting from the 13th of March 1990 when you say you received a telegram from ... (inaudible).  When you received the telegram, where was your son?  Was he here in South Africa?

WITNESS:   He was right here in South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: So he didn't go with you to Zimbabwe?

WITNESS:   He went to Zimbabwe with me.  He completed his matric in 1987.  If I'm not mistaken it's in 1987 or 1988 and because I was struggling I couldn't make ends meet he  decided to come back home to his uncles to get an identity document so that he can get himself a job to do.  And I sat down with him.  I told him I don't have money to apply passport for him.  I was sewing and I knitting and selling and every time I would come back with a little income and I exchanged this money into South African money and I organised him transport to come to South Africa and I received a letter that he was already in South Africa.  And I rushed home because I wanted him to have an identity document.  Luckily his sister already helped him to get an identity document and he said he was already in the process of applying for a job and thereafter I got this telegram.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mama.  Was your son a member of any political organisation, do you know?

WITNESS:   Yes, I heard they say, yes, he was a member of a political party but I was not around.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what that party is?

WITNESS:   I don't know, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you got a telegram when you were there saying your son had been shot.  Do you know who shot your son?

WITNESS:   I don't know the person responsible but I heard the Comrades talking about that person responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Do they say who was that person who was responsible, the Comrades?

WITNESS:   They said it is the policeman called Monei.

CHAIRPERSON: Monei?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where Monei lives?

WITNESS:   I don't know, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Even the Comrades don't know where he is?

WITNESS:   I didn't ask them, Sir. According to your daughter who was here in South Africa did she tell you why your son was shot by the police?   ---   She told me that they were in a mass action toyi-toyiing during the unrest at Odendaal.

CHAIRPERSON: What was happening during that time in Odendaal?  What was this toyi-toyiing?  What was happening?  Did she tell you?

WITNESS:   I don't want to tell lies because I was not there.  I arrived there during those unrests so I didn't know what was exactly happening.  I was not even able to ask because when I confront this incident, I get upset.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I don't blame you by being upset.  This must be very painful indeed.  Your daughter's name is Martha, is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Martha not here?

WITNESS:   No, she didn't come.

CHAIRPERSON: She didn't find it necessary to come and support you as she's a person who knew everything.  If we want to get information from Martha, where would we get her?

WITNESS:   She's working at Lesotho Wholesale.

CHAIRPERSON: Working at Lesotho Wholesale.  Where is Lesotho Wholesale?

WITNESS:   It's at Odendaal just around Tom Tuck(?)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I'm just asking because we might need her assistance.  We might have to call her some time so that she can give us more information as she is the one who was around because she has made a statement here.  In your statement you said that your daughter Martha Sangweni told you that Mandla had been shot because he was a political activist and an ANC member.  Is that true that your son was buried on the 27th March 1990?

WITNESS:   He was buried on the 22nd of March.  He died on  the 12th of March, then he was buried on the 22nd of March.  Yes, it's on the 22nd of March.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any death certificate?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what is written on the death certificate about his death - the cause of this death?

WITNESS:   I don't understand English so I'm not sure what is written there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we'll have to see what is written there.  It doesn't matter.  So long it is there.  Thank you very much for it.  Was there an inquest made into his death?

WITNESS:   I don't understand what you mean by an inquest, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean investigating his death.

WITNESS:   Yes, there were some investigations.  There was a court case then my daughter said there were many forms who were put on the table.  Then in court they were saying they were burning houses in Bester and ... (inaudible) ... property.  So I think that is why he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: It was said that they were burning houses.  Which houses or whose houses?

WITNESS:   It was said in the court of law that they burnt tractors and then they destroyed his property.  I don't remember was it Bester or somebody else.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this Bester?

WITNESS:   I do not know.  I think he was one of the white people who were building houses in the township.  I did not know who this Bester was because I wasn't residing here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That is why I say we might need the assistance from your daughter who was here.  So, Mama, you have got children in school and you don't have a  husband.   Who is educating these children?

WITNESS:   That's myself, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you working?

WITNESS:   I'm not working, Sir,

CHAIRPERSON: How do you do it, Mama?

WITNESS:   At times I'm sewing trousers.  At times the friends to my child.  Usually they give me money then I buy sheep heads and sell and that is how I'm able to afford to pay their school fees and able to buy them uniforms but under some conditions which I am, I was unable even continue with my work.  I used to get some profits to buy them money but now because of my health even one of them I couldn't pay her school fees even up to now.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she still remaining in school?

WITNESS:   Yes, she's still at school.  When kids were sent back to collect school fees I went to the school and I talked with the principal that I don't have money but I'll try to get money then pay R45,00.  I was able to get R20,00, then I paid that R20,00.  Since I've only paid that R20,00 I haven't yet contributed the other remaining money.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the school, Mama?

WITNESS:   The Ispihelo(?) Secondary School.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the principal?

WITNESS:   I don't know if the surname is Motseke.  I heard students say Mr Motseke so I thought that that's the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Does the principal live in Odendaal?

WITNESS:   Yes, he stays at Odendaal.