Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan, if I could just intervene.
	Where were you stationed, Mr Gumengu, when you were with this so-called Anti-Terrorist Unit?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When I started working for the Anti-Terrorist Unit - it was established in 1986, I think the month was July, at the time I was in district number two, that was Butterworth.  That consists of Willowvale, Gcentane, Namakwe, eDudjwa, Kei Bridge, that is district number two.  And in 1987 I was taken to Johannesburg.

JUDGE MILLER: And then were you stationed in Johannesburg from 1987 onwards?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: With the Transkei Police, or did you switch over to join the SAP?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was staying alone because my assignment there required me to stay in different hotels or I would look for a flat and stay there and the government would pay for me and I would be called for an assignment here in the Transkei if it was necessary.

JUDGE MILLER: And when you were in district number two, namely Butterworth, stationed in Butterworth and also when you were stationed in Johannesburg, was it still the situation that you only took orders from Capt Mfazwe?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, although what was mentioned to me was this, if Capt Mfazwe, if it can be difficult for me to get hold of him, the person that I had to contact was Gen Kauwe or else the person who was in a position to help me in Johannesburg whenever I come across problems, was a divisional - from the Security Police who was in charge of Soweto.  He as Brig Grobler, though I never saw him with my own eyes, I was just given his telephone number.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, and sorry just one last little point, where was Capt Mfazwe stationed?  Was he in Butterworth or head office here in Umtata?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was in Butterworth.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.  Sorry, Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: No problem, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gumengu, there were some courses that you had to attend in the normal course of the furthering of your career, but there were also a lot of special courses that you attended, can you inform the Committee of them please.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, there were special courses.

MR MALAN: Can you name them please.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: One other course that was not supposed to be revealed to anyone, was a course of breaking in the houses or offices that could enable me to take whatever I wanted inside a house or an office.

MR MALAN: Who provided this course, is it the South African Police or the Transkeian Police?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When I started on this course in 1987, I was here in the Transkei through a white man that I was introduced to by Mr Mfazwe.  This white man used to call himself John, he's the one who was training me here in Transkei.

MR MALAN: Right.  You were also attending courses where they showed you videos and books and stuff regarding political ideologies, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, I attended such courses.

MR MALAN: What was the intention of the course?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was to ensure that I have all the necessary knowledge of what is the reason banning all these organisations and to know more about the actions at the time, or movement, and how to counteract the activities of such organisations.  And in the same videos we would learn that most of the things - there was nothing that was being promoted or said by the banned organisations, but all what was promoted was the constitution or the ideas of the government of that time.

MR MALAN: These organisations, were they proposed as the enemy to you, and if so, did you believe that?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: They were not enemies to me personally but to the government yes, they were enemies.

MR MALAN: In being the enemy of the government would it tantamount to being your enemy?  Am I correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you receive any remuneration excepting normal salary and monies for sleeping out or whatever, for doing this job?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, there were allowances that would be granted to a person who would sleep out of home for 24 hours.  There was S&T that had a limited amount and there's another one that was called constant allowance, that we would get for claiming with slips.  I was using that but at some stage they realised that I was using a lot of money and they changed me to something that was called operational allowance that was coming to me every month.  Even if I had gone out or not, I would get that allowance.

MR MALAN: But the monies that you received were in line with the doctrines of the Police Force and were monitored by the Police Force, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, because we would fill in forms before getting that money.  We would not get that money without any approval, you have to sign, to fill in forms and after the approval you'd get a cheque.

JUDGE MILLER: So is the position then Mr Gumengu, that when you for instance were in Jo'burg, you'd only received an operational allowance, you didn't get a salary plus an operational allowance, or did you get both?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I would get both of them till such time in 1988 where it was reduced to only one.

JUDGE MILLER: Then that was the operational allowance?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: In your affidavit you state that you had regular contact with Capt Mfazwe and he at some stage indicated to you personally that if you act against the enemies of the State, which we outlined in brief, even if it means that you have to eliminate people, you were acting on the highest authority's orders, is that so?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did Capt Mfazwe indicate to you that you not only have to eliminate the enemy but that you have to infiltrate their organisation will also be asked from you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Will you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR MALAN: Did he also say that part of your task would be to infiltrate the enemy in an effort to learn more about their organisation and their efforts to undermine the Transkeian Government?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Is it so that some of your actions were either covert or clandestine?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: At a certain stage you were issued with a motor vehicle that was not registered in your name and you were issued with the following firearms
1 x 9mm pistol;
		A 9mm TXB(?) sub-machine gun;
		1 x R4 rifle;
		1 x AK47 rifle and;
		handgrenades with a diverse amount of ammunition.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: How did you receive these items, and did you have to sign for it on an official form?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The 9mm pistol and the BXP sub-machine gun and the R4 rifle, I signed for them but the AK47 and the handgrenades I never signed anything for them.

MR MALAN: The handgrenades might come in at a later stage in this hearing.  Was the origin of the handgrenades South African or communist?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: They were of South African origin.

MR MALAN: How do know that?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: They were M26 and I was trained in the use of that, I know the difference.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan, if I could just intervene.
	Why didn't you sign for the AK47 and the handgrenades?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The manner in which I received them, it was when I was in this highly protected job and even the manner they came, like this AK47 I was given by Capt Mfazwe, he brought it to me and the handgrenades were brought to me by Lt Kabingese.  I went to fetch them in his house while he was still staying in this township called Kwezi.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, just one follow-up.
	And you say you were given these handgrenades of South African origin because you were trained in the use of them?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I was trained but they were given to me so that I could do some tasks when necessary or when I get instructions to use them.