Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BENNET SIBAYA: Before, I was staying at Zone 5, Langa.

MS QUNTA: Okay, and for how long were you staying there - at zone 5?

BENNET SIBAYA: More than ten years.  We then had to go find our own places when residence ended there.

MS QUNTA: Okay, and before that you didn't stay in Guguletu prior to staying in Langa for that ten years?

BENNET SIBAYA: No.

MS QUNTA: Now, how - you say in your statement, on the night of the 30th you arrived in the vicinity where you saw this vehicle - this white vehicle, how did you get there?

BENNET SIBAYA: We had been getting lost for quite a while trying to find NY141.

MS QUNTA: And how did you get there though?  How did you get to the place where you found this white vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were driving Mazibuko's combi - my friend.

MS QUNTA: Was the combi also used as a taxi?  What did he do with the combi, was it a private vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes it was a taxi, he used it as a taxi.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  And where did he rank - where was the taxi used, between what were his routes?

BENNET SIBAYA: Wynberg/Constantia route.

MS QUNTA: And where did your friend live?

BENNET SIBAYA: He stayed in Philippi - Zinyoka.

MS QUNTA: So his route was between Constantia and Wynberg - from where, from Philippi or from Guguletu?

BENNET SIBAYA: He would move from Wynberg to Constantia only.

MS QUNTA: Now in you first statement which was given on the 5th of January to the police - which you've just indicated to us that you've signed, you indicated that that you went there by taxi, is that correct?  Your first statement says - paragraph 2, there was no mention, you didn't mention anything about a friend by the name of Mazibuko.

BENNET SIBAYA: It is his taxi, he owns the taxi - wherever I go, he took me there.  He was not on duty at that time, there were no taxi's in motion at that hour.

MS QUNTA: Yes, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that, what I need to find out from you is why in that statement did you not mention to the police that you had your friend with you and his name?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Segal said that if Mazibuko refused to make a statement, there was no need.

MS QUNTA: So, are you saying that you did mention Mr Mazibuko to the police but they told you not to mention him if he's not prepared to make a statement, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: They said that he did not want to be a part of this, therefore I should not mention him.

MS QUNTA: When did you find out that Mr Mazibuko did not want to be a part of this?

BENNET SIBAYA: When the policeman came to me saying that I should go to the police station, I went to Mazibuko and told him.  Mazibuko then said I must not mention his name because he does not want to give a statement or did not want to give a statement.

MS QUNTA: And so you told the police that Mazibuko said you should not mention his name, you told Mr Segal that?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, I told him and said that we must leave him if he does not want to give a statement.

MS QUNTA: Now, why did you then mention Mazibuko so fully in your second statement to Mr Lubbe when Mr Lubbe came to you and now in your evidence you speak very freely of Mr - of your friend?

BENNET SIBAYA: What do you mean by freely?

MS QUNTA: You've told us that you've been friends with him very long, he owned the taxi, you seem quite willing to speak about him and mention him, both in the statement to Mr Segal and now.  Why - if you didn't want to mention - if you were told not to mention him in the first statement, why did you mentioned him in the second statement?

BENNET SIBAYA: It is not myself who did not want to mention his name, it is the police that said I must leave his name out.

MS QUNTA: Yes, I understand that - about the first statement, I've understood what you've said, I'm talking about the second statement which you made to Mr Lubbe. Did Mr Lubbe also tell you not to mention Mr Mazibuko?

BENNET SIBAYA: He did not say that I must not talk about Mr Mazibuko.

MS QUNTA: So in other words you mention Mr Mazibuko - I want to find out why did you then decide to mention him in the second statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, in the first statement he was told by the police not to mention his name.

BENNET SIBAYA: I'm explaining how I got there - it is too far, I could not walk.  I was explaining that aspect - there were no taxis at that hour.

MS QUNTA: Are you suggesting that because Mr Lubbe did not tell you to mention - to not mention Mr Mazibuko, you've decided to mention him in the second statement?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was merely explaining how I got there because there were no taxis available and it was far, I used Mazibuko's taxi - there were no taxis at that hour.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, you say you live in NY72 or at the time you lived in NY72, number 52?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: And you say you were not familiar with the area that you were going to - NY141, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Correct.

MS QUNTA: And Mr Mazibuko also did not know?

BENNET SIBAYA: He did not know it well.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  Now, in the statement you made on the 5th of January, you said you proceeded down NY113 and that NY113 faces NY115, do you recall saying that?

BENNET SIBAYA: We went to all of them, NY113, 115 - we were getting lost, we didn't know where we were going to.

MS QUNTA: But you see, I understand that you say you were getting lost, what I'm trying to establish is which road - when you first got into that part of the township, which road did you proceed up?  Did you go up to NY - did you proceed up to NY113 or NY115?

BENNET SIBAYA: We entered at 110, I saw NY113, 114 and 115 however, as we were turning the last time I did not know this street well, the person I asked at the car said it is - or at the house, said it was 129.

MS QUNTA: You are not answering the question I'm asking, I'm saying you said in your statement that you turned into NY113 - that is the statement you made to the police on the 5th of January.  Are you now saying that that was not correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: No English translation.

MS QUNTA: NY113.

BENNET SIBAYA: We entered 113, went down the road and up the road again.  What I remember clearly is that as we were at 115 leaving 113, we entered a street that I did not know, this is why we had to ask.  That lady then said it was NY129, she said that 114 was just ahead of 115.

CHAIRPERSON: It's just possible that the taxi was drunk at the time - the vehicle itself.

BENNET SIBAYA: No, he just did not know the area well - I didn't know it either.

MS QUNTA: Now Mr Sibaya, I've heard you saying that you don't know the area - now what I'm trying to establish, why were you so certain then on the 5th of January 5 days after the event, that you in fact turned into NY113?  I'm going to read this for you, you say
"When we turned into NY113, the street was quiet.  I noticed a white Audi motorcar which was parked on the Northern side of NY113 facing NY115"
You see, from what you say there it sounds like you are pretty certain about where  you went - once you had got to that street, you at least recognised those streets.

BENNET SIBAYA: No, I did not know this street, the owner of the house where I knocked at told me.  I saw NY113 when we entered, it is the owner who told me that it was NY129 that we were at.

MS QUNTA: So in fact you are saying now that you know that you turned in NY113 because a few seconds you said you didn't know where you were, you were told only that it was 129.  So are you saying now that in fact that statement is - you did know that you were turning into NY113?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Segal went with me so that I could point out during the day where this all had occurred - he was together with other police.  He then pointed at 113, he said that it is 129 it was not 113.  If I could go there myself I could point these places out to you.