Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

JUNE CRICHTON: ... what happened and I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, may I do that?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Of  course.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you.  I just want to get your agreement on the fact that it was on the 28th of November 1992 and it happened at the Kingwilliamstown Golf Club.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That's right yes.

JUNE CRICHTON: Now my first question to you, you were seated at a table as Beth told us yesterday, a long table.  Were you able to actually see the people who threw the grenade as they came through the door?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Well I can remember gun firing starting, and I looked up and I saw the person that Beth described standing in the door holding a rifle, and you could see against the skyline, when a bullet is fired it makes a light, and he was firing shots, and I remember thinking at the time of my experience during the war, he must be a very
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bad shot because all the bullets seemed to go over the heads of the people he was aiming at. He was using an AK 47 and any automatic rifle kicks up when you shoot them. He was obviously aiming at the peoples' heads and the bullets were going over their heads.  I can remember that, except for the person next door to me, Mrs Macdonald whom he killed.  I remember that, slumping forward and blood pouring out.

JUNE CRICHTON: Was she shot or was it the grenade, the shrapnel from the grenade.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I think a shot killed her, I'm not sure, but that's my impression, because as far as I recollect, the grenade exploded right behind me, I was the closest to it, behind Beth and myself and Beth, you know what happened to her, well I was like...(indistinct)I was told by the specialist afterwards, because we were sitting in loose chairs, it was a hot evening and I had my blazer hanging over a loose chair at the back, and I was told that if you fired a bullet or anything of force into something that's hanging or flapping, it either won't go through or it loses about two thirds of its impact.

JUNE CRICHTON: So you actually saw the man standing at the door?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I saw the man, only I couldn't recognise him.

JUNE CRICHTON: Was he on his own or were there more than one person?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I only saw one person, then I heard this explosion and then I saw an extraordinary thing, a ball of light suddenly appeared in front of me, like a flash of flame, and that was the last thing that I remembered there.

JUNE CRICHTON: You didn't see any other person standing ...(intervention)
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ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No I saw nobody else, then I flaked out.  Apparently, I was told that I was pulled out with those that were dead, there was fortunately a trained nursing sister there and she was able to organise drips and things for Beth and myself and she actually saved our lives I think by putting these drips into us.  The next thing I woke up was in the ambulance, we went to East London and my own personal physician from Kingwilliamstown was with me.  I remember him saying to me, "Yawn, yawn", I didn't know why but I kept on yawning and then I got to East London.  The next thing I remember was them cutting the clothes off me, the next thing was the sister on one side and me and the doctor on the other side of me, and I remember the sun was up, I can remember that, and I had stitches and bandages all over me.  They said, "You're going to sleep for 24 hours, pass water!", and I said I can't and with that I became violently sick and I think I brought up all the food I had eaten for the last two weeks.

JUNE CRICHTON: From what you've explained to me, it sounds that you had consequences from that ever since.  Your medical health has been very poor as a result of that together with your mental performance.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Yea, that's right yes.

JUNE CRICHTON: Can I now move you on to in the hospital. Were you visited by police to take statements or any other people?  You've mentioned the ANC visited you.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: It struck me as being quite extraordinary that after I had been in hospital for two days, the minister of police and another minister, I remember he was a very big man, I can't remember his name but it began with a B and two other very senior officers came in to see me.  And the TV
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crew was with them and I remember I tried to hide under the seat so they couldn't recognise me when they started taking TV photographs of me, but apparently some people did recognise me when they saw the TV replay, and they asked me at the time what I remember and I said, nothing.

JUNE CRICHTON: So they didn't take a statement?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No I gave no statement to the police, except one of negativeness and I told them what I'm telling you now.

JUNE CRICHTON: And you've not been to any identity parade?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No I didn't because I wouldn't be able to recognise anybody.

JUNE CRICHTON: You mentioned earlier on that thought that this was definitely a politically motivated attack.  Do you want to enlarge on that at all?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: It's very difficult to do so.  You know when people claim responsibility, they either do so out of bravado, or for factual reasons.  I don't have the faintest idea whether in fact APLA did do the attack or somebody else did.

JUNE CRICHTON: Now let's just look at your feelings as a result of all of this if I might.  If you feel you can answer these questions.  What are your feelings towards the perpetrators now, you've explained how you feel about the war and the way this brought it all back. What do you feel about the perpetrators now?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Well, i believe one must be very objective in this regard. There were so many wrongs committed that I can understand that perhaps untrained, overzealous persons, seeking revenge might try and do something of that kind.  And it is very difficult to bear, well at the time and
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afterwards when I had trouble with my legal practice, in my mental condition I was very resentful, but after giving the matter a lot of thought, one comes to the conclusion which I think is the right conclusion, that maybe the people who did it were misguided, maybe they did it for reasons which they thought were justifiable at the time, maybe they didn't realise the harm that they could cause. I'm quite sure they were young people, I'm quite sure also that they had no concept of the results that could occur and did occur, and obviously at the time there must have been malice on their part.  Maybe they regret it now and as I sincerely regret what happened from the other side, I have always been a liberalised figure all my life.

JUNE CRICHTON: So are you saying that if they were to seek amnesty, you would feel the way you've just expressed it?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Well I think it must be uniform. I think that any amnesty applications have got to be dealt with on their merits obviously, I mean not a person to really voice an opinion in this regard, but I wouldn't object to them seeking amnesty in the same way as I wouldn't object to people like Malan seeking amnesty now. If they more or less on both sides were on boiling point, it boiled over and now, thank goodness, it's back to normal.

JUNE CRICHTON: Before I hand you back to our chairperson, what would you like or expect the Commission to do for you?