Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.  Thank you.  I want to welcome you - order please.  I want to welcome you to this, the second day of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
 We warmly welcome you on this second day of the sitting of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  May I just indicate a few things.  I will have to repeat these two particular announcements.  The first one is that it will be a standing rule that men may divest themselves of their jackets, some of you have already done so.  I won't make that announcement again, it is warm in here.
 The second is relating to the contraptions that you have, the headphones and the set to assist you to follow the proceedings.  We have already run up a loss of about 13 from yesterday, we just want to appeal to everybody that these particular apparatus is totally useless away from these particular machines and therefore it won't help you.  I always warn people that in fact they are a special kind of machine, if you take it away with you it bites so you are going to be in danger.
 Please each time, tea time, lunch, every break, leave them where you are seated and then in paying tribute to my colleagues and the staff, I have not mentioned the interpreters and the technicians who need our acknowledgement of assisting us.  But also I want to refer to the briefers, the people who sit next to the witnesses, are employed by the TRC, they are there to give assistance if required, support, emotional support to the witness.  It doesn't have anything to do with their own personal views.  We need to express our appreciation to them for carrying out this particular work.
 Then a very important instruction now, I said I was going to be tough as of today.  When a witness comes up and their legal representative leads them or how ever they do it, that must be a total of not more than 15 minutes.  I am not going to allow for further than 15 minutes and then Hanif, your follow up will be ten minutes.
 Mr Semenya, I will give you 15 minutes and any of you there who are not the lead Attorney, no more than 5 minutes sharp.  It will work out fairly for everybody because all of you will be operating under that.  We are trying to ensure that we do finish without being unduly unfair to anyone.  We seek to complete our record.
 Good morning Mr Morgan.

MR MORGAN: (still under oath)

MR SEMENYA: During your evidence in chief, you said that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela participated in the assault.  Would you say that the decision to commit the assault was a collective, consensual decision made by the group of people?

MR MORGAN: It was a decision of four people.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon, I didn't hear the answer.

MR MORGAN: It was a decision of four people.

MR SEMENYA: All the people agreed that the assault should go on, there was no particular leader who made the decision, or did Mrs Mandela give the instruction that it should happen?

MR MORGAN: The first person who started assaulting was Madikizela-Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: The next question is at that time, what would happen to what was generally known as an impimpi, a traitor, a sell-out?

MR MORGAN: They were being referred to as spies.

MR SEMENYA: What would happen to them if they were smelt out or pointed out or decided to be spies?

MR MORGAN: They will be assaulted and would be thrown right in the air and be let alone to fall down.

MR SEMENYA: Is it true that certain persons in the community at that time, not necessarily at the Mandela household, were necklaced, killed and otherwise dumped?

MR MORGAN: That much I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, I said I would confine myself to five questions.  I have now asked three, safe to record that there are certain persons, such as my client and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, who are in jeopardy of future prosecutions.  I fully appreciate your ruling with regard to cross-examination and will leave it there.  Thank you, no more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You had said you had a colleague who wanted to do something.  You actually took less than five minutes.

MR SEMENYA: That was deliberate and out of deference.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you identify yourself and then say what you have to.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairman, I am Advocate Steven Kuny, instructed through the TRC by the Legal Aid Board and I am representing Ms Falati.  I just have a few questions for the witness.
 Mr Morgan, if I understand your evidence correctly on the day that Ms Falati reported the sexual assault on Katiza Cebekhulu...

MR MORGAN: Can you please repeat your question?

MR KUNY: On the day that Ms Falati reported the sexual assault on Katiza Cebekhulu, you were instructed by Mrs Mandela to go and fetch him from the Methodist Centre, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: That is true.

MR KUNY: She will say in her evidence that after that, Winnie Mandela herself, that is Ms Falati and someone else went to see Dr Asvat.  Are you aware of that?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

MR KUNY: She also says that on that particular day Mrs Mandela had returned from a visit in the Cape where she had seen her husband, Mr Nelson Mandela, are you aware of that?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't know that.

MR KUNY: Are you aware of the date on which the sexual assault was reported when you went to fetch Mr Cebekhulu from the Methodist Centre?

MR MORGAN: No, I am not aware.

MR KUNY: Now, in the evidence that you gave and you were subject to some cross-examination regarding this, it is apparent that you have spoken to and seen various journalists concerning the affairs at Mrs Mandela's household, the football club and so forth, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: That is correct.

MR KUNY: Does the name Paul Martin, are you familiar with that name, is that someone that you have spoken to?

MR MORGAN: No.

MR KUNY: You don't know that name at all?

MR MORGAN: I don't know that name at all.

MR KUNY: Do you recall giving an interview with a journalist when Ms Falati was present?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't recall.

MR KUNY: Is it possible that you gave such an interview, or do you just not remember it?

MR MORGAN: It is not that I have forgotten, I don't remember.

MR KUNY: Ms Falati says that in about May of 1994 she went with you and Paul Martin to a mine where you pointed out a place where bodies had been dumped?

MR MORGAN: That is not true.

MR KUNY: You deny that?

MR MORGAN: Yes, I refute all of that.

MR KUNY: And you had mentioned names of persons such as Cookie, Lolo, Sibusiso and Hlapo who had been dumped at this place?

MR MORGAN: No, it is not me.

MR KUNY: When did you start working at Mrs Mandela's household as a driver?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR KUNY: The people at Mrs Mandela's household were quite well known to you?

MR MORGAN: You mean which house?

MR KUNY: At Mrs Mandela's house?  You worked there?

MR MORGAN: She had three houses, which one are you referring to?

MR KUNY: The house that you worked at.

MR MORGAN: All of them.

MR KUNY: We are referring to those households then.  You worked there for quite some time?  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He can't hear the translation, can you just help?  Can you hear?

MR KUNY: Mr Morgan, do you know anything other than what you have already told the Commission, about the disappearance of Cookie Zwane?

MR MORGAN: I left Cookie Zwane at Mrs Mandela's house.

MR KUNY: You were the one who gave evidence yesterday that on Christmas eve you said to her let's go, is that correct?

MR MORGAN: It is correct.

MR KUNY: And Mrs Mandela said that she will take her home?

MR MORGAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I said five minutes, you have one minute to go.

MR KUNY: That was the last time you saw her?

MR MORGAN: No, I had never seen her after that.

MR KUNY: Do you know whether she is dead?

MR MORGAN: That much I don't know.