Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MR SAMUELS: I call Sandile Ngubeni, case number 7298/97, page 180.  Mr Chairperson, may I increase the number of offences that this applicant will apply for, he will also apply for possession of an AK47.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that the only thing that he's applying for?

MR SAMUELS: No, no, he's applying for kidnapping, murder and possession of an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: You say kidnapping and murder?

MR SAMUELS: And possession of AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: That's three?

MR SAMUELS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubeni, what language would you prefer to use?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Zulu.

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: (sworn states)

MR SAMUELS: Mr Ngubeni, how old are you?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: 31 years.

MR SAMUELS: Do you live in Thokoza?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: During 1993 were you a commander of a self defence unit in Thokoza?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: No, I will like to correct it, it's from 1993.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Were you a commander?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes, during 1993.

MR SAMUELS: And what unit did you command?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Unit in F Section.

MR SAMUELS: I see.

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Now you're applying for amnesty for three crimes, kidnapping, murder and possession of an AK47, is that correct?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Now tell us in your own words about the kidnapping, who did you kidnap?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: If I remember well, it was 1993.  I can't remember the specific date but the month was October.  I as a commander and Vus Pamula, Shane Menges, Dumasani Khosas, we left unit F and went to Extension 2.  We were going to collect Sipho Makatini.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took that decision?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: It was myself as a commander.

MR SAMUELS: Continue?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: When we arrived at Extension 2 where he was staying, we asked him to accompany us back to Unit F.  He refused, therefore we forced him and took him back.  While we were kidnapping him, going back to unit F, when we arrived at Unit F Dumasani Khosa shot him and I also finished him and that's how he died.  That's the end of the story.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, just repeat that now, you kidnapped him and then what happened after that?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: We kidnapped him and took him with us to Unit F which is called Danger Zone.  That's where we shot him.

MR SAMUELS: Why did you kidnap and shoot Sipho Makatini?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: The reason we shot Sipho was because supporters of the IFP, after killing people in the township they will celebrate and blow their whistles in the township.

MR SAMUELS: So just because he celebrated he was killed?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: That wasn't the only reason, the other thing that hurt me so much, that made me to take the decision that he should be killed was - I can't remember well whether it was Saturday or Sunday, IFP members were coming from a funeral at Phola Park, they were coming from attacking, they were attacking Phola Park when they were passing our place.  They entered one house and stabbed one woman with a spear.
	Secondly, there was a young child whose age I can't remember and that house was under three, was stabbed with a shield and they said this woman's stomach is dirty because she gave birth to ANC supporter.  Again they found someone, a lady who was pregnant and one of the members did kick that pregnant lady on her stomach.

ADV MOTATA: Was Sipho Makatini present when this happened?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I will say it was happening right next to his place.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is off.

CHAIRPERSON: This whole killing of Makatini was more of revenge?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I can agree that that is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: My understanding is the IFP started attacking us during 1990 and while we were being attacked Makatini was so happy about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Makatini a member of the IFP?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he do anything physical to anybody?  Did he attack anybody or did he kill anybody or what?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: ...(indistinct)

ADV MOTATA: Please, we don't want Zulu again, give us English.

INTERPRETER: Okay, I promise it will be English.

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: A police came to me, they were called the ISU.  When they arrived they were together with Makatini.  They arrived at me and asked why were my eyes red.  I told them my eyes were red because I inherited them from my father.  They said I'm an IFP member, they're going to take me to the hostel, that's where they're going to leave me.  They took me with him, when we arrived at Buyafuti Hostel one father who was an Induna came.  It was someone whom I helped on the way in Standerton, this is the person who managed to rescue me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have regard Makatini as a political opponent?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have regarded Makatini as a political opponent?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I regarded him as a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you regard him as a political opponent?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes that's correct because the Inkatha people were troubling us.

MR SAMUELS: And finally, what happen did you have?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I was armed with an AK47 and a knobkierrie.

MR SAMUELS: And did you realise that being in possession of AK47 was illegal?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes I knew it was illegal but because of the situation whether it was lawful or it was not lawful, it was something that didn't come to my mind.

MR SAMUELS: I see, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: I've got no question, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you take all the people to Danger Zone and kill them there after you've kidnapped them?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I would like to tell the whole house that that was the most dangerous place and all things were happening there.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but now you're kidnapping somewhere else and you bring him to danger zone and you kill him there so you create the impression that people are being killed there, isn't that so?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Can you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: We've had evidence that people were kidnapped in Extension 5 and then brought to Danger Zone and being killed there.  Was that the pattern in Thokoza?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I don't understand your question.

ADV DE JAGER: We've heard a number of people testify about deaths and kidnapping and assaults and whatever and it seems to us that everytime that somebody got killed or attacked or kidnapped, it happened in Danger Zone.  What was so special about Danger Zone?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Chairperson and the people in the house, this place called the Danger Zone is a place which had been demolished.  When we were trying to stop the IFP from infiltrating our side, we will barricade at the danger zone, so that's the reason why it was used as a place to kill people.

ADV MOTATA: Now we have been whilst we were in Vosloorus shown a map of the area in respect of Schoeman Street and Khumalo Street, if we speak of this Danger Zone, where would you place it with regard to the hostels lining around there?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Danger Zone is at Schoeman Road at my Section.  When you're at Khumalo it's far from it, it's far.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were a commander on the ground there in Section F?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And life wasn't very easy during those days and living in the way that was abnormal?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand matters have improved somewhat and there's a bit of peace in the area today?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: I didn't understand, I didn't hear you?