Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No, Mr Chairman.  If I could perhaps repeat.  The farm house is to the right of Alldays, then you get the police station and then you would drive to the scene.

MR BLACK: Okay, then the police station is nearer to the scene than the farm, is that correct?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now, how far is the police station from the scene about?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: About 50 to 60 kilometres, Chairperson.

MR BLACK: And how far is Alldays from the scene of the operation?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I don't know Mr Chairman, the police station is in Alldays.

MR BLACK: Okay, thank you.  I thought it was situated ...

ADV DE JAGER: Alldays doesn't exist of more than a police station.

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: .

ADV DE JAGER: The tape recording was made by Colonel Van Dyk?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is right.

ADV DE JAGER: He was then a Captain?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: He was an officer.

ADV DE JAGER: And he was in charge of the information, or he had the instruction to control or check all the information and collect the information so that a report could be made?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is what I heard during the evidence that he dealt with all the information.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  If you had a tape recording, in normal police work and that entails evidence, how is it stored in the police station, how is it kept in safe custody as not to lose it?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Chairperson, in the Security Branch and by implication myself, have never been in such a situation that I had to actually store my tape recordings anywhere.
	I used to sign for the tape recorder and the cassette and it was in my possession at all times, it was never necessary for me to go and store it somewhere.
	But in this context it seems that it was different, but I was never in that situation that I needed to store it elsewhere.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you only use it to refresh your memory to be able to write the report, you didn't send the tape with the report?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: All the years, that was the way it worked that the informers were often seen at night, so that you couldn't actually make notes and a recording, the tape was then used to take down the information, vis-a-vis this informer - sometimes the discussion lasted for 20 minutes or longer and then we had to send all information to Pretoria to Head Quarters in writing and that tape recorder helped me then the morning after an interview, to extract all the relevant information, write my report and then to send it back to Head Quarters through the normal channels.
	And then the next occasion I would use the same tape for a different person or interview.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fuchs, why did you decide to shoot at the combi, because Colonel Erwee was in charge of the operation and he never ordered you to shoot?  Why did you?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: When I heard somebody shouting that they are firing at us, and I saw the Colonel collapsing - I don't know why, whether he was wounded or seeking shelter, but shots started going off and I realised that now we have to fire back, we have problems.
	The first shot, after I listened to the tape it was very, very clear that one shot, one pistol shot would ring out very clearly and then the volley and then the person shouting they are shouting at us.
	And at that stage, I had not option but to assist and to help because I could see that the fight was on and that I also tried to fire although my first couple of seconds were wasted because my gun stalled and I had to first try and un-jam it.

CHAIRPERSON: But we know that according to your evidence the idea was not to kill these people, but to arrest them?  Isn't that so?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, the first though was definitely and that was most pertinently put to us that these persons should be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case, you see your Commander, the person in charge of the operation, he doesn't ask you to shoot, he is using his R1 rifle because he was the first person to shoot and in fact in your evidence, you have said that before you started shooting, you noticed that your colleagues in the casspir, were already shooting at the combi.
	Now he is in charge of the operation, he is using his rifle and he is not asking you to help.  Why did you join in and fire eight shots if the idea is just to, you know, to immobilise this people and not to kill them?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I would answer to that that when fire came from the combi I realised that my life was in danger, and my colleagues' lives were in danger and I most certainly would not have left my colleagues in the lurch by not firing.

CHAIRPERSON: You are shooting to kill, weren't you?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I fired, I fired into the combi and it could have had detrimental effects.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact you stopped only when Colonel Erwee said stop fire?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.  I fired about eight shots with the pistol and I stopped when the shout came, seize fire.
	What I should perhaps add, I think I said it in my previous evidence, that that was my first opportunity at which I was involved in such a thing, and I was in a state of confusion.  I can't say I acted correctly or not, but I did shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: But under normal circumstances, Mr Fuchs, ordinarily, shouldn't you have waited for an order to shoot?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That morning, when we rehearsed the event, we were told that these persons had to be arrested and I was involved in many arrests  in the past and by implication I can mention a couple, where we went all out and in fact arrested these people.
	So there was no doubt in my mind that we were going to arrest these people.  Although we were also told that should we be fired at, should any trouble arise, then we were simply not going to stand and do nothing, we were going to answer fire with fire and that is what happened there.

CHAIRPERSON: But even so, I would have thought that there would have been some order.  I mean people can't just do what they wanted at a scene or at a situation like that?  surely things must follow a certain order, somebody must be in charge and people must listen to the instructions and orders from somebody in charge?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I don't understand?  Is this during the shooting incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am talking about on that morning.  I am just saying to you that no matter what instructions had been when you left the office about the arrest and how people should be arrested, I am saying there was somebody in charge there at the scene and surely somebody had to be in control at the scene and I would expect therefore that, I mean I expect you to have been under the command of Colonel Erwee and he would say to you do this, come and interpret here, take the person to the hospital, shoot, stop fire, you know?  Those rules still had to apply, isn't it?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: To me it amounts to the same, Colonel Erwee was the Commanding Officer, we acted according to his instructions.
	From the moment we arrived there, when the rehearsal took place and there we were told, we were given certain instructions, we were told exactly how the 
sequence of events would unfold, it is normal that the people would be placed apart from each other for the possibility of an interrogation.
	Now, the order to shoot that happened in a fraction of a second.  When they opened fire on us, we immediately answered the fire without Colonel Erwee saying let us fire or I didn't hear it any way.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is just what worried me, any way.  I think I have asked you about that.