Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you heard the evidence, the testimony of Mr Maduna saying that there was conflict between the PAC and gangsters that were attacking the PAC.  Do you agree with that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I am very much disappointed and very much distressed what is being said about the applicant, saying that there was a gang in the area.  There was absolutely nothing like that.
	As I know it was a conflict within the structures of the ANC, where Jeffery Nongwe was a Chairperson of the ANC at Section 4 Branch, also a Chairperson of WCUSA, Western Cape United Squatters' Association.

MR FORTUIN: Can you also explain to the Commission, what was the basis for the conflict in Crossroads at that point in time, you say there was a conflict between the ANC in the area?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.  The conflict was around the housing issue, where they were supposed to develop Section 1 to put the infrastructure for houses, but instead of putting the houses, Jeffery Nongwe was going to put a Site and Service, which a person would move from shack to shack, only to get a service, only to put toilets, flushing toilets, and it was not the will of the community to put that.
	People were saying they need to get out from a shack, to go to a house.  That thing was manipulated by the CPA, a person who was dealing with the development was Mr Fanie Naude from the CPA.

MR FORTUIN: As far as your recollection goes, there was no gangs that actually were attacking the PAC in this vicinity, this area?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, there was no gang at the area.  The only thing was the conflict between the ANC and this incident occurred when people have been hired to assassinate me because I was a prominent person in the area, trying to advise people the betrayal which Mr Jeffery Nongwe was doing.
	I was told that I have to be removed and I was harassed also by the police.  Several occasions the house was raided and on that day, when the incident occurred, I found a strange woman from the Intelligence of the SAP.  This lady arrived in between five and four o'clock.  She was with a man, they were both white.
	This lady introduced as saying she is Captain Meyer.  The other gentleman, I cannot remember his name.  They have been trying to brief about us the development and the problems which is surrounding the development and I told this lady she must move out and she is not involved with the political things, this is an internal thing of the ANC.
	In my own recollection, this lady was coming to do a surveillance to see inside the seating arrangements, how is the door being opened, because the house was surrounded with a vibracrete wall, because the applicant, when they entered the house, they kicked the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you move on to that, who did this woman claim to represent?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: This lady claimed to represent the SAPA, the Department of Intelligence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.  You were saying that you were of the view that she had come to do a surveillance of the inside of the house?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Just earlier, before that, you said that people had been hired to assassinate you.  Have you got any evidence of that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come to that.  Here is somebody that has come to surveil your house, what happened after that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: What happened, a few hours ago, the incident occurred, at around about half past eight, when the family, they were eating their supper.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was that, was that your house?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: The house was my uncle's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

DEPOUTCH ELESE: My recollection is that these people had been hired by R100 000 plus a kombi, they are going to be given R100 000 plus a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is hardly information because nobody told you that.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, can you tell the Commission, I believe that somebody approached you and informed you that there was a plot to assassinate you?  Is that correct?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on this day?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, can you just explain to the Commission, how you came to get this information that there was a plot to assassinate you and who told you and when this took place?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I was told by somebody in the township who was working in the taxi industry.  His name, his surname is Mr Machangaza.  He started to phone me and then he arranged for me to meet with him and I met him at TOPCO training centre.
	At that time I was doing, completing my standard 10 because I went back again to school at that time.  He told me that I mustn't go at school because there is a plot to be assassinated at school.  On that day, I didn't go to school.
	It confirms after the incident occurred on that same day, because I didn't go to school, the incident, because they saw me, I didn't go to school, they decided to come to our house, that is why the surveillance was done by the police as I see it.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you were saying that there was a plot to assassinate you.  As far as you know, who were all these people who were used in order to do these kind of things in the townships?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.  There was a group who called themselves the Big 8.  If you know that there was a friction between the taxi industry, there was Lagunya and Webta, after that it was changed to be CODETA and Webta.
	When they started to come together to form one organisation, but on the other side the CATA people, a group of eight, defected and said they don't want the peace process and they called themselves the Big 8.  Those people, they were guns for hire.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know the Big 8, who was the group that they normally supported in the townships?  Who made use of their services?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: They had been used by Mr Jeffery Nongwe, and he gave them harbouring when there was a taxi war, taking them from the bushes at Swartklip to come and stay at Crossroads at that time.

MR FORTUIN: Okay, Mr Elese, Mr Maduna told the Commission that he is a member of the PAC, he became a member of the Task Team and that Tinage was also a member of the PAC. 	In your view, is that correct?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I don't think this is a true reflection what he has said, as I know Tinage is not a member of the PAC.  He was a member of the ANC.  Even presently, his family, they are still members of the ANC.
	Even himself, when it was in court, he denied to be a member of any political organisation, and in my recollection also, because where he stays, it is only a road which divide us, Crossroads and Nyanga because he was staying at Lusaka, at Nyanga.
	I do my recollection even there, from the leaders of that area and they confirmed that he is not a member of any political organisation.  He doesn't go into meetings.
	He is only a person who has been hired to do violent and crime in the area, in the taxi industry.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, Mr Maduna testified that he wasn't aware of any conflict in Crossroads, wasn't aware of the conflict that we were speaking about.  Do you think it is possible for somebody who lives in that particular area, if not in Crossroads, not to know what the basis of the conflict was?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: We can also call a person who was a Chairperson of the PAC Branch in that area, who is Mr Mketsu, at that time he was a Chairperson of the Branch of the PAC at Crossroads.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please spell his name for me?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: It is Mketsu.

CHAIRPERSON: He is the Chairperson of which Branch?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Of Crossroads PAC Branch at that present time, although now, he had defected from the PAC and rejoined the ANC.  He defected from the PAC in 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you were also, you also attended the trial of the applicant, is that correct?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.