Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DU PLESSIS: Mrs Maake, I am putting that to you asa possibility.  Do you agree that that could have been a possibility,or do you say it is completely impossible?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: I don't believe that because I've never seenhim in a car.

MR DU PLESSIS: So do I understand you correctly, Mrs Maake,do you say that even though you weren't always present, that itis impossible that your son could have driven a car and couldhave parked it in a different place?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: What time of the day was he driving that carand in which yard was he parking it, because everyday he was sleepingat home.  Where did he park the car?  Where we didn't even seethat car or his brothers didn't see that car.

JUDGE WILSON: If I could interrupt you and ask a questionI think should have been asked at the beginning.  Will you tellus Mrs Maake what your family consisted of and who lived in thehome?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: That's myself, and his two brothers and theother one is now living outside the home.  He is having his ownfamily outside.

JUDGE WILSON: In 1987, how old were the two brothers? Were they living in the home then in 1987?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: All of them were staying at home.
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JUDGE WILSON: /...
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JUDGE WILSON: How old were the two brothers?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Do you mean which age?

JUDGE WILSON: In 1987, how old were they?  Were they olderor younger than him, than Jackson?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: They are his elder brothers.  The first bornwas born in 1960, the second born was born in 1963 and he hassince died, and then the third one is 1966 and Jackson is 1968.

JUDGE WILSON: ... also living in the house with you?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, my sister was staying with us at thattime and is still staying with us, still now.

JUDGE WILSON: Was there anybody else living in that  house,at that time, not now?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: You mean the one who is not the family member?

JUDGE WILSON: ... family members living there in 1987?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: That's all.  All I have mentioned are the peoplewho were staying with.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  So am I rightin saying that the people who lived in the house was yourself,your son Jackson, his two brothers and your sister?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: And even his uncle, James Maake.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was the uncle living in the house as well?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, that's true, even now he is staying withus.

MR DU PLESSIS: Were those the only people living in thehouse at that time, Mrs Maake?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: That's true, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Are you sure about that?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, I tell the truth.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mrs Maake, how do you know that Jackson,your son studied in the evenings?
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ELIZABETH MAAKE: /...
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ELIZABETH MAAKE: What do you mean by study?  I was able to seehim studying.  If he was not studying he could have been failingat school.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you personally see him study in theevenings?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, I used to see him when I was on leave.

MR DU PLESSIS: And other times, how do you know he wasstudying?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: His aunt was always taking care that he isstudying, even his brothers were taking care that he is studying.

MR DU PLESSIS: How was his aunt taking care?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: He was seeing him.  If you are with a childat home all the time you are able to see his movements.

MR DU PLESSIS: And where was his aunt living?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: She was staying with us.

MR DU PLESSIS: I asked you just now about three timeswho was living with you at that time.

JUDGE WILSON: Her sister would have been his aunt.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: The people I've counted are the people whowere staying with us.

MR DU PLESSIS: When you refer to his aunt you meant yoursister.  Is that the same person?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, that's true.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Mrs Maake, did your son go out visitingfriends a lot?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, he used to go to his friends, but he wasnot sleeping outside.  Any child used to go out and come back.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no furtherquestions.
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NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish toput to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, just clarification questions. Mrs Maake, the school attended by your son, Jackson, was it inMamelodi East or Mamelodi West?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: That's Mamelodi East.  I think it is West.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would the name Retabele Secondary School meananything to you?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: It is an upstairs building and I just forgetthe name, but I believe it is Retabele.  Yes, I believe so.  Itis Retabele Secondary School.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is the name of your granddaughter?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Her name is Christina Maake.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is she school-going?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, she is at school.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What standard?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: She is doing Std 4.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who pays for her schooling in general?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: I pay the school fees.   At times my sisterpays the school fees.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: Perhaps you can help here before I ask her. Did she provide the photograph?  You have given us a photographshowing your son at some function, do you remember that photograph?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Where was he?

JUDGE WILSON: I don't want to distress the witness.

MR CURRIN: She gave us the photograph this morning, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: The photograph you gave this morning, doyou
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remember that photograph?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, I do.

JUDGE WILSON: Is your son wearing his school blazer andwhat looks like a school tie?  Is that the school blazer and theschool tie?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: No, Sir.  These are just ordinary clothes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Maake, when the photograph of your sonwas taken as you have alleged by the police, was this taken duringhis arrest that you have referred to in your evidence?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: No, I don't believe so, he was still at homeat that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did the police have a photograph of MrMaake?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Which one?

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you have stated ...

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Which one, which photo?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Maake, in your evidence you have statedthat the reason why Mr Van Vuuren would have been able to pointout who Mr Maake was because he had a photograph.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: I think so.  That's why they know them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... no knowledge where would he have gotthis photograph?  Wouldn't you have got this photograph when yourson was arrested during the school boycott?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: The photo I give you this morning?

SISI KHAMPEPE: The photograph that you have referred toin your evidence in chief.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: What surprised me is that how do this policemanknow these people.   We went to see the place where they werekilled.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Maake, was Mr Maake, your son, financially5B - did/...
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- did he have money during his schooling in 1987?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: No, he didn't even have a cent.  He was walkingbarefoot to school at times, and sometimes he was walking to schoolwhen I don't have money to pay for transport.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you provide a daily stipend for him?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, I used to give him money all the time,but when I don't have money he used to walk to school becausethey used to go to school with a taxi.  If I don't have moneyhe would walk to school with his friends.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So from what you could observe of your sonhe didn't appear to have money to throw around.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: All the time he used to ask me money, eventhe last day he was asking me to give him R10.  He didn't evensleep on the bed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The two brothers, your two sons, who areaged 27 and 24 as at 1987 when David was killed, were they attendingschool?