Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

MR BLACK: Yes, but you heard Mr Gushu's evidence I gather?

MATTHEW GWALA: Yes, I did.

MR BLACK: Not of this was every put to Mr Gushu to give him an opportunity to comment on it, so I'm just putting that to you.  You didn't  ...[intervention]

MATTHEW GWALA: If I'm not mistaken that question was posed and it was put to Gushu and Gushu answered that he only knew the car as well as the number plate and he further pointed out that he did not know my brother personally.  That is where my problem lies because Gushu was not telling the truth.  We are here to speak the truth and what is written there is that truth is the road to reconciliation.  What are you going to reconcile if there is no truth?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, obviously from a legal point of view, I'll address the court on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwala, is there anything else you have to say?

MATTHEW GWALA: I would like to voice my feelings with your permission Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If there's anything you haven't said before, please say it but if you've said it then I've heard it.

MATTHEW GWALA: No, it's not something that I have said, it's the feeling that we have as black people.  What I would like to import to this Committee, I have a belief that we have come here to try and reconcile.
	Now with regard to the applicants, I think it is better for them to tell the truth so that we can be able to reconcile.  We regard ourselves as the victims, direct or indirect.  Now I would like to tell my brothers and sisters that in such matters, it is detrimental to the community for us to conduct ourselves like animals.  
	I think this is a place that we need to respect and conduct ourselves accordingly and listen to the testimony that is rendered and thereafter we can voice out our comments.  It is not good for us to start clapping hands and to start mocking because we are impressed with a certain speaker.  This is my personal feeling.  
	I think as people we have got to tolerate each other and realise that whatever we have come here to discuss, by they time we go out we have reconciled because we have shown some tolerance, thank you very much Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, are we not going to take a break?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR HATTINGH: May I then just ask for a five minute break to consult with the next witness before we carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR HATTINGH: Three witnesses.  We've gone through three and in the end it will only be six.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I omitted to mention the name of a dependant of the deceased Themba Mlangeni.  He has got a minor child of 15 years of age.  He is in the care of the same person, Bheki Mlangeni, the brother of the deceased.  May I just give the name to the Commission?  It's a 15 years old boy, his name is Mfanmpela Mlangeni, spelt: M-F-A-N-M-P-E-L-A Mlangeni, 15 years, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: Mfanmpela Mlangeni, born on the 15th of October 1983.  It's the same address Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, before we proceed, may I just then at this stage hand up the bundle of documents which I made available to the other legal representatives.  The next witness will be Thembisile Nkambule and I beg leave to call her.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we make this and Exhibit??

MR HATTINGH: B I believe.  I believe there was an Exhibit A and then this will be B and it's marked from pages 1 to 22.  Sorry, I understand from Mr Zuka Mapoma that it is Exhibit 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Can somebody close that door please.
	Miss Nkambule, what language would you like to speak?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: siZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to taking the oath?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: (sworn states)

MR HATTINGH: Miss Nkambule, is it correct that you are the sister of the lady that got killed on the 12th of April 1992, together with Chris Ngwenya?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that you were also involved in that incident and that you got injured?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Is it further correct that this incident occurred towards the evening of that day?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Would you please go ahead and tell the Committee what exactly occurred during that incident?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: It was on the 12th of April 1992, on a Sunday I think, if I still remember very well.  We were coming from home at the hostel, myself, my sister Lindiwe who is now deceased and my brother-in-law, Chris Ngwenya.
	When we approached the cafe just before we took the corner Motopeng Street, we saw two males standing there.  The one was on the left and the other one was on the right next to the disco ...[intervention]

MR HATTINGH: Miss Nkambule, just slow down a bit.  When you came down the street ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to stand down to recover and we can carry on with somebody else?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: I can continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure?  I don't mind standing down.

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: Yes, I'm sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR HATTINGH: Before you carry on, I would please ask you to just speak slowly to enable the Interpreter to also interpret for us.  When you came down the street with Lindiwe and Chris, how were you walking as a  group?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: When we got into that road my brother-in-law was in front on the left, my sister was in the middle and myself on the side.  When we took the corner at the street we were coming from upwards towards Motopeng Street and when we were just in the middle of these two men whom I didn't know then, gunshots started firing ...[intervention]

MR HATTINGH: Before you carry on, can you stop there please.  At the time when you met the people or you reached the people who were eventually to shoot at you, were you and Chris and Lindiwe walking next to each other or what was the position?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: No, we were not so close as to touch each other, each one was walking freely and separately but together.

MR HATTINGH: Side by side or behind each other?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: No, we were walking side by side.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see the two people before they started to shoot?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: We approached and we saw them.

MR HATTINGH: Where did you see them?

CHAIRPERSON: She said: "Standing on either side of the disco".  When they got inbetween them they were shot at.

MR HATTINGH: Carry on.

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: And when we were in the middle of these two men they started shooting and we fled as we(?) starting shooting.  Myself and my brother-in-law took the direction downwards and my ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean: "downwards", from this direction you came from or how?

THEMBISILE NKAMBULE: We were approaching a place that looked like a playground in open space.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.