Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-11

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus you are still under oath.

MR ERASMUS: That is correct your Honour.

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus yesterday we completed up to the administrative dispensation in the Eastern Cape. Just to follow up from that will you just explain to the Committee when you were in the Eastern Cape 1980/81, what was the position regarding instructions from Head Office?  What kind of instructions were those, what type of instructions you were supposed to execute as Divisional Commander of the Eastern Cape?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman if we refer to Head Office, we refer to Security Head office.  Security Head office delegated some policy and instructions to me and certain administrative functions within the security branch.  The Divisional Commissioner who was the senior person in the division Eastern Cape, the police administration was done by that person, that refers to sick leave, injuries, promotions, transfers, etc as far as they requested this to be done.

MR VISSER: And regarding the solution of practical problems on the ground, who was responsible for that.

MR ERASMUS: I was responsible for that as divisional commander.

MR VISSER: Against that background the Committee has heard evidence previously but shortly give your perception regarding the joint management system and the role which this management system played regarding your responsibilities as Divisional Commander.

MR ERASMUS: This management system was a body on which all departments and non-departments were represented.  Discussions followed regarding the situation, we exchanged information, we gave certain input and also other departments.

MR VISSER: In other words were there any discussions about certain guidelines or standpoints of politicians of the day and how that had to be applied?

MR ERASMUS: That information was handled through that channel.

MR VISSER: Previously you testified according to your knowledge there was never any instruction from the joint management system for anybody to act illegally, but you said there was some pressure from them to act in a certain way.

MR ERASMUS: I can't remember a direct instruction.  I know that in all these forums, because of the prevailing situation, the anarchy, the chaos there was pressure exerted on us which on this forum, pressure from head office, from the general public and we ourselves, had to solve this problem in cooperation with the other forces.

MR VISSER: While referring to that, what was pressure from the general public, in which form was that?  What was it about?

MR ERASMUS: That was because people sustained damages in properties, it was burned down, they couldn't continue normally with their businesses, they lost money because of strikes, because delivery vans were burned, I can mention various examples.

MR VISSER: Is that what you mean, the general public?

MR ERASMUS: Mostly business men and also the general public, it includes the normal ordinary citizens and they were also influenced by the circumstances.

MR VISSER: We will discuss this later in more detail.  Do you want to tell the Committee  where Gerrit Erasmus comes from.  Give a short description of your background and the impressions and influences on you where you grew up and where you came from.

UNKNOWN: Did we not get this in his career overview yesterday?

MR VISSER: No we only referred to his police career, we had no personal details up to this stage.

UNKNOWN: Is that contained in the bundle?  This personal background, is it contained in the bundle?

MR VISSER: No Mr Chairman it's evidence.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I was born in Fraserburg on the 28th of August 1936.  Like the most Afrikaans speaking people I grew up in a conservative Afrikaner home.  We were all members of the Dutch Reformed Church and when we grew up we were supporters of the National Party.  My parents and if I remember correctly, my mother, she became 70 years old and till late in her life she worked officially for the National Party.  Furthermore this apartheid policy we grew up with that in press and to the things I've heard over the radio, apart from the English press there was little criticism on the apartheid policy.  The judge prayed for the security forces, political statements praised the security forces for what thy had done and what they are doing to combat this evil.  I was also influenced by prominent people I had contact with on a daily basis.  Those were for example earlier my teachers at school and if I think back and look around me, today I remember that I think that the policy of the previous government could possibly be justifiable and was correct.  Later in my late life...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: If I might interrupt you, are you saying that this history coloured your decision to eliminate Sizwe Kondile, I am trying to understand the context of this history.  Are you saying this is what helped that basic fact?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman this was a contributing factor to my activities in the police.  During my later years all I experienced, all aspects of Apartheid policy and there were various views regarding this.  Most people I came into contact with believed in the policy and supported it.  The people from the South African Police in the execution of their duties as policemen and women had no reason whatsoever to criticise the policy of the government they were obliged to serve; they had to take an oath of loyalty amongst others. I also experienced that very many statements were made overseas in support of the policy of the previous government.

MR BOOYENS: I just want to interrupt you.  You refer to policemen and women and how they approached this matter, how they felt about that.  How did you as a security policeman later feel and what was your position in the struggle ANC, Communism, PAC, the liberation struggle, the security forces, what was the role according to you of the security forces?

MR ERASMUS: Our task was at all costs to combat this total onslaught, prevent it and to see that they do not overthrow this government. We were the last bastion between total anarchy and take over or overthrow and the state.

MR VISSER: Apart from your background and your education, when you became a policeman, you've already told us yesterday about the experiences you had regarding the political struggle.  You referred to the Park Station bomb, the Harris bomb explosion.

MR ERASMUS: There were also other experiences. For example in 1960 I was stationed for example then in Cape Town at Caledon Plain.  This is in Buitekant Street.  There was a march; the various organisations I did not know about because I was a detective.  Later on I heard that it was a PAC march.  There were about 30 000 people involved.  I can remember distinctly that this march was led by a very young man.  I can't remember his name now.  They marched up to Caledon Plain.  There was one or the other document presented to the Divisional Council Commissioner.

MR VISSER: After they dispersed, shops were plundered, people were injured etc and in 1963/64 according to your experience a new thing started happening or emerged.  What happened then?

MR ERASMUS: During 1963/64 there were many sabotage attacks because sub stations were attacked.

MR VISSER: We don't want to spend too much time on this but the point is what you are trying to say to the Committee is that since the 1960's you have been exposed first as a detective and later as a security policeman to violence, intimidation and all accompanying things which were concerned with this political struggle.

MR ERASMUS: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yesterday you told us in November 1979 you went to Port Elizabeth.  I want you please to explain to the Committee according to your insights what the security situation was in your division in the Eastern Cape.