Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR MALAN: And you've also said that you met Japie Oelofse in prison, I believe this was early in '95 and he congratulated you there once more and just about every day and he told you that you would receive amnesty?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: And at that stage there was no legislation on amnesty, why did you talk about it then?

DEON MARTIN: I cannot answer this.  He told us that we'd receive amnesty but I don't know why he that we would.

MR MALAN: Let me ask you a general question.  I can understand that you were under instruction from Commandant Kloppers and that you took your instructions from him.  If there was a disciplinary structure as you would tell us there was definitely one, then I can understand that you would expect in this process that those who are under you would comply with the orders.  What's difficult for me to understand is why you want to involve General Oelofse according to Mr Kloppers' testimony, are you trying to protect Mr Kloppers at all?

DEON MARTIN: What I am saying are facts, General Oelofse did this what he did.  I do not have to protect Phil Kloppers.

MR MALAN: Most of your testimony with regard to General Oelofse is based on information that Kloppers gave to you.  Most of it is firsthand witness.  I refer to the incident.

DEON MARTIN: The incident which was issued said that we would go from Kloppers' residence, I did not doubt his orders for one moment.

MR MALAN: That's what I said to you in the beginning.  I accept the fact that you accepted his orders and that you did not question his testimony therefore, if he had said to you that General Oelofse said so, you would not have questioned it?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But with regard to this incident, you had no first hand knowledge regarding General Oelofse's involvement?

DEON MARTIN: Except that which General Oelofse himself had said to us, that he was angry with the other areas who had not acted.

MR MALAN: That is after the fact?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, it was afterwards.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't forgotten about you Miss van der Walt, I just thought it would be more convenient if you were to re-examine after members of the Committee would have put questions so that you come right at the end.

MS VAN DER WALT: I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martin, it could very well appear that an impression may be created that you people were drunk that evening and then decided to go and put up a roadblock to assault, harass and intimidate black people.

DEON MARTIN: That's not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the AWB ever adopt as it's policy, that violence be used and in particular that people be killed?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct Chairperson, I would like to refer you to phase 1.  This was training material which we gave to people who were undergoing training.  It was compiled by General J L Oelofse.  All the officers below us completed these exams.

MS VAN DER WALT: Might I just tell the Committee that I wanted to submit it, we can submit it right now.  I have made copies and I also have the original copy with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Read to us what you consider relevant to my question.

DEON MARTIN: Chairperson, on page 12 under the heading
"Organisation and Planning for Unconventional Warfare"
I'm referring to 3(c):
"The following phase is the action of guerilla fighters simultaneously sabotage, terror, revolts, strikes, assassinations and soforth are used to create political and social chaos"

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't understand this to the extent that - I'm sure that I understand you, but to the extent that I understand this particular portion, it's looking into the future.

DEON MARTIN: Chairperson, it had then already been decided by the Generals and staff that night would be the outbreak of the revolution and I believe that this is part of the revolution.  If we look at terror, strikes, revolts, sabotage and soforth ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What is the meaning of
"namate omstandighede dit toelaat, neem hierdie fase in hewigheid toe"?

DEON MARTIN: I cannot answer that because it did not happen that certain circumstances contributed to that.

CHAIRPERSON: The heading thereof says
"Organisasie en Beplanning vir Onkonvensionele Oorlog Voering"
Did you ever attend a meeting of the AWB where they said: "Well, we've been planning for the war and the like, we now hereby adopt the resolution in terms of which the was must now start"?

DEON MARTIN: No, I never attended such a meeting apart from meetings which were held by General Oelofse in which he stated that war was imminent, that it would break out at any moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that for an organisation like the AWB to resort to that kind of thing, it would have needed shift of policy?

DEON MARTIN: No, I did not see it as such.  The only place where I was where war was continuously discussed was with General Oelofse and it basically involved that we should prepare ourselves, prepare our people, store food and soforth.  That is what he told us, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the fact that besides a bunch of you who were there that evening, no other members of the AWB resorted to doing that sort of thing that night, doesn't that show you that that was not a decision of the AWB?

DEON MARTIN: I don't know.  Afterwards Eugene Terreblanche stated that if all of us acted that way on that evening we wouldn't be in prison.  He admitted it to us, especially to Kloppers, that if everyone had acted the way that we had acted, we wouldn't be in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Be careful with what you're saying Mr Martin.  The words, you are just adding the words: "soos hulle moes", that is not what you told us Mr Terreblanche told you.  He did not, according to your evidence, he did not add the words: "soos julle moes".  Because if you are using those words you are really saying a lot more than what you are telling us.

DEON MARTIN: I will read from my affidavit
"Commandant and everybody had acted the way they should have acted, you wouldn't be in prison"

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you didn't mention that to us earlier on but nevertheless, let's leave that aspect.  As I read the criminal record in respect of some of your colleagues, on your way to the roadblock you came across two black people, do you remember?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They were assaulted?

DEON MARTIN: I heard that they had been assaulted, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see that?

DEON MARTIN: No, I did not see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

DEON MARTIN: The vehicle stopped a little way ahead and we were waiting for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consider that also as part of the revolution?

DEON MARTIN: No, Phil Kloppers told the men that this was not what we had been commandeered for.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what do you mean: "revolution was on"?

DEON MARTIN: Chairperson, I would say it would be to establish a political revolt and in so doing prevent the government of the time from conducting elections during which the government would be handed over to a black majority.  By bringing about a revolution fear would be driven into the hearts of the people and that would prevent them from participating in the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Revolution against who?

DEON MARTIN: That would be the government of the time as well as the ANC/SACP Alliance.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you regard the roadblock and the killing of a few people there as a revolution against the government?

DEON MARTIN: I believe that if there had been groups such as our committing this kind of an act on a nationwide scale, it would have caused large scale chaos.  We were not the only ones who were acting.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not remain there at the scene and continue to kill as many black people as possible and create chaos?

DEON MARTIN: As I have stated, we held a torch over the people and it appeared as if they were all dead.