Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

ADV BOSMAN: No, well my question is in the first application as you call it, you were so concerned whether there were security personnel living in the houses, whilst two weeks earlier it didn't matter to you at all.  How did that come about?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Ja, it's like getting inside a supermarket with the intention of buying an apple but because of the smell of that grape, then you change your mind not to buy an apple and then buy grapes.  So here I'm saying it was a question of choice in terms of prioritising the targets and yes, it was about choice, it was not a - we were not that subjective to an extent that only policemen and defence personnel were the only legitimate targets available for us, there were plenty of targets.

ADV BOSMAN: No that I understand, Mr Kgotlhe, what I don't understand is if you'd attacked the police target first and then decided well now we'll go further, I would have understood it in a way but you start off with a very soft target and then move to the important target, that I don't understand, why you exercised your choice in that order?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Unfortunately oppressors had no soft slaves or victims, they treated us the same way and that concretised our response in that this language of soft targets and hard targets never ever existed in our vocabulary so I don't know which soft targets you are referring to and which are hard but what I know we had targets and our targets were oppressors.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kgotlhe, let me try and put it differently because I really do not understand your reasoning at the time.  I would have thought that you would have first attacked the target which would have been quite an obstacle, the security people with arms.  But instead of starting with them you start with the soft targets and you leave the security people with the arms still there, why did you not attack them first.  This is my difficulty, I honestly don't understand your reasoning.

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: It would have been vice versa, we may have attacked the police first then came later and attacked - so it's a question of sequence, I understand, so I really am not sure what is the problem about that, choosing soft targets first and hard targets second, I'm not sure what is the problem.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to argue with you, I just want to explain my difficulty to you.  I would have thought if there was an attack on the police first you may have had some successes there and then it would have been easier to launch a second attack after that, this is how I would have thought, you need not agree with me but do you have any comment on my reasoning?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: So it goes without saying that it was business as usual, the struggle was going on, having chosen soft targets as you like to say or you like us to believe, then to us was not an issue, an issue to us was executing operations and arriving at our end goal which was freedom, that was our main interest.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take this any further, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kgotlhe, at the time when you saw the director of operations at that stage had you already formed the - or come to the conclusion that parts of that particular area are occupied by members of the security forces?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know at the time when you had your discussions with the director of operations had you already come to the conclusion that parts of that particular area in Ficksburg were occupied by members of the security forces?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Are you referring specifically to the area which was attacked or Ficksburg as a whole?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put in more general, had you already formed the impression or drawn the conclusion that there were certain parts of Ficksburg that were occupied by members of the security forces?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you discuss that with the director of operations as well?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you indicate to him that or did you propose any attacks on those houses that occupy members of the security forces to the director of operations?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was his attitude about that idea?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: In fact he supported everything I came up with.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you discussed the intended attack on the old age home, did you also brief him on all the other alternative courses of actions, the other options if arms were left over after the attack, you would use it to attack houses and if police were to come you would attack them and so on?  In other words did you brief him on all those details that you had in mind?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes he was provided with all the details concerning the attack and it's possible fall backs, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was his attitude towards that, was he also supportive or what was his attitude?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: He supported it whole heartedly.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report back after the incidents?  Well we're talking about this particular incident now, the first.

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes it was standard procedure that I should report back.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you recall who you reported to, was it head office or was the director or who was it that you reported to?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I reported directly to the director of operations.

CHAIRPERSON: And whilst we're talking about that, in the case of the later attack on the houses where Mr Dolo was also involved, did you discuss that particular operation beforehand with the director or did you just carry on with the second one?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: In fact he was made aware after, the only thing which happened there was that he instructed me that I should make the point that there are activities in my region and I should select targets as per my instruction so I used my discretion in this respect and this was done in accordance with the general instruction that all regional commanders have that power to choose this or that target so it was done on discretion and thereafter, that is after the execution, I did go back and he accepted everything which we did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, I'm sorry to come back to you Mr Kgotlhe, I just wondered, why did Nduna and Kenny and Max who were with you in the first attack, first incident, why did they not assist you when you attacked the houses which you believed were the security houses?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Well as I said we encountered a police patrol vehicle and as a result there was disorganisation which led to them leaving behind those bags which contained Molotovs so I was left with comrade Max behind who had in his possession a bag containing spikes so I will attribute that to panic.

ADV BOSMAN: But what became of them, what became of Kenny and Nduna and did they join up with the unit again?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes after the operation we did meet but the unit - yes I did retain them after the operation, they were part of the unit.

ADV BOSMAN: But when Mr Nduna assisted you, where were they then?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Well there was a prescribed area or RV whereby we will meet after having executed the mission, so what happened they took that direction of the said RV or rendezvous.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether I'm being a little slow in understanding today but at the time - look if I understand you correctly, Nduna and Kenny and Max were with you when you planned the attack on the old age home, is that correct?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now two weeks later, more or less two weeks later, you asked Mr Dolo to assist you, is that correct?