Amnesty Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1999-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning everybody.  You will recall that yesterday we commenced the hearing and then an application was made by both Messrs Rudolph and Terre'blanche, the applicants, in relation to the Ventersdorp incident and that thereafter we proceeded with the evidence of Mr Terre'blanche in regard to the other incidents in respect of which he applies for amnesty.
	We dealt with the evidence concerning the Van Jaarsveld incident.  I think it would probably be more convenient at this stage, Mr Terre'blanche, if we just - I am sure it will not take long, deal with the weapons incident and then get back to the Ventersdorp incident and then we will deal with the two of you together instead of going back to the Ventersdorp and then back to your own application later.
	So if we can, at this stage then, proceed with the application relating to the weapons and essentially this application is a chamber matter really, because it doesn't involve any form of gross human rights violation as defined in the Act, but we would appreciate it if you would just give us some information relating particularly to a description of the weapons used, the amount and type of weapons and the reason why they were in your possession, perhaps, and anything else that you wish to tell us about that.
	So if we could proceed on that basis and I would remind you that you are still under your declaration to tell the truth.

MR TERRE'BLANCHE: (s.u.c.)
	I thank you Mr Chairman.  I would just like to request you to allow me to use a minute or so in order to get to the part with regard to the documentation on the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think if you take a look, it's ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: 29.

CHAIRPERSON: I refer you to pages 29 to 36 of the documentation.  That is page 34 then, very well.

MR TERRE'BLANCHE COMMITTEE: Mr Chairman, during 1982, the AWB got hold of some weapons.  In court it was said at the time, that the weapons, the ammunition of which I had never seen the identity, but as was described in court it was parts of AK47s and would I suppose one or two pistols.  These weapons, members of the AWB got it from a member of the,  Mr Kees Moos, an erstwhile member of the AWB.  I became aware of that when later it was shown at a house in Delmas and the allegation was made that the ammunition was up in a cupboard and parts of weapons were stored in trunks.  	The idea with regard to the getting hold of the weapons was to keep those should the erstwhile government capitulate in the same way that the white colonial governments, in a very short time span, handed over their power to a majority government and the fear was voiced by members of the AWB that the same fate could be that of the whites in South Africa with a very fast taking over of power resulting in chaos, that as is the case of the Belgian Congo, as was the case with the Belgian Congo and other places, murder would take place and people would lose their lives.
	I was confronted by this situation and even though I - and that was also said in the Supreme Court and it could not be refuted, to say that I should get rid of these things, it was a trap because the man who I obtained it from had, it was a Dutch person, Mr Moos, who also fled from the country.  I received it from him, because I didn't trust him.
	Be that as it may, the weapons were taken to my brother's farm and I became aware of it when it arrived there.  We then buried the weapons with the purpose that should we need to one day protect ourselves, our property, homes, as in the case with the Portuguese in the Congo and to have it at hand if there was no order in which to protect ourselves.
	That was also our defence in the Supreme Court and the verdict of the judge was that we would in any case not be allowed to possess those weapons even though the intention would be to use it in order to protect ourselves.  We therefore had the weapons in our possession illegally.  We had those weapons in our possession. 
	The judge did say in his verdict that we, to a great extent, were the victims of circumstances.  I reconciled myself with the idea at the time that under those circumstances it would be well and right that the weapons should not be given, handed over to the police but for political reasons we were to keep them should the history repeat itself and we are being confronted and being put in chaos and evolution by other forces.
	I humbly submit that I do qualify for amnesty for the possession of these weapons.  It was the organisation, the AWB, who accepted responsibility for those weapons.  I, as leader of the AWB, finally accepted responsibility.  We kept it there and it had to stay there until a situation would arise that we would perhaps need it in a situation of chaos and warfare.  That is my side of the story, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  On this issue relating to the weapons, Ms Patel to you have any questions?

MS PATEL: Yes, perhaps just one.
	You stated in your application that you  received the weapons from an agent from the South African Police, could you perhaps just give us the details as to how that came about?  Was there an agreement between you and this agent, or can you give us the specific manner in which he got the weapons and gave them, handed them over to you or your organisation as such.

MR TERRE'BLANCHE: Mr Chairman, I would firstly like to say that in a later court case, exhibits at my disposal, I would have evidence where Mr Moos during another court case prior to this case prior to this case - unfortunately I did not have the information at my disposal during my court case, when in court he was asked whether he worked for the Security Police, he answered
"Yes, I work for the Security police"
At a later stage he was asked again: "Do you at this stage currently work for the Security Police?"
... upon which Mr Moos said:
"Yes, I currently work for the Security police".
With that knowledge at my disposal, I immediately came to realise that Mr Moos is in fact an agent of the Security Police.  Where he got those weapons from, I do not know.  He told us that he had bought them.  The weapons were fetched from his plot by a one Mr du Plessis from Delmas and a one Mr Jan Groeneveld from Pretoria.  The weapons were then transported to Delmas to the Du Plessis' farm.
	I was then called to Delmas, upon which I was told that they had weapons in a cupboard, that they were came from Mr Moos.  I then gave a directive that we should get rid of them.  That was never doubted in the Supreme Court.  The person who was responsible for removing those weapons then again said in court that he did not know how to get rid of them and that he then took it to his good friend, my brother's farm where one of them buried them.
	It was two trucks were filled with weapons and like as I have said before, pieces of ammunition.  The weapons in most cases were dissembled.  There was also ammunition.  I then came to my, went to my brother and this person to his farm upon which I agreed that we should not transport it any further and therefore we buried it there.  That is the information I have at my disposal.  It happened 10 years or more ago.  It was a decade.  I am therefore not as sure ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was 1982, it's 17 years ago.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.