Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Brigadier, just so that perhaps someone like me, and maybe us here, can understand, you said you were a commander of the South African Defence Force.  Somewhere in your presentation you mentioned Portuguese-speaking soldiers.  I wonder if you can explain to us the National Defence Force of South Africa and its connection with the Portuguese-speaking soldiers.

WITNESS:   You are referring to that time? Yes.   ---   Thank you, Madam, I understand.  At the time of - the battalion I am talking about was called 32 Battalion.  32 Battalion was part and parcel of the South African Defence Force.  They consisted out of Portuguese-speaking soldiers, and when I said in my testimony that we had mixed reaction about those troops, it's essentially because people had the perception that they're very aggressive.  But later on, after they've been deployed for a while, and they walked the streets of Imbali, they went to visit houses and so on there, we actually got very positive response from the community.  So it was a Defence Force unit at the time.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  I just want to understand whether they were South African nationals?

WITNESS:   Madam, they were part of the South African Defence Force.  I cannot respond to that answer because I simply don't know.  I just know that they're a Defence Force unit.  And in fact that unit operated in South Africa in various areas for a long, long time.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  I think it's common knowledge that 32 Battalion were made up or comprised Unita members from Angola, who left Angola to join the South African Defence Force, and they were black, Portuguese-speaking soldiers.

WITNESS:   Well, that's essentially true, yes.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Brigadier Swanepoel, I just want to clear my own demons in my head about the police and the soldiers.  You know I said that I had finished, but I am persuaded to ask this question.  Brigadier, were there any occasions when the South African Police refused to use the services of the SADF?

WITNESS:   Sir, definitely not to my knowledge.  The actions that took place on grass roots level are grass roots actions, so to my knowledge and in my term of service it didn't happen.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL: Okay, let me leave Ilan to pursue some of the questions.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Brigadier, you mentioned earlier on that your - the furthest that Defence Force vehicles and personnel went was just beyond the traffic lights off the Edendale Road, is that right, between the 27th and the 4th or the 6th of April?  Just beyond the hospital, the traffic lights.

WITNESS:   Well, that specific day, the specific day of Sunday, that was the area they were.  But I am not saying that they sort of stayed there all the time.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Are you saying that they were deployed throughout the region, the KwaShange, KwaMnyandu, Gezabuso, Ashdown, Xaluza, Umphumuza - are you saying that your troops were deployed throughout that region from the 27th of March to the 2nd or the 4th of April?

WITNESS:   No, Sir, I am not saying that.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Can you tell us why they weren't deployed there?

WITNESS:   It was according to the plan.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Whose plan?

WITNESS:   The motivation for the joint planning committee to deploy the Defence Force resources on the Edendale Road was specifically to keep that road open for the civilians and the workers to come to work the next morning.  And I believe that was the only reason why they were deployed there.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  So are you saying that throughout this region - and let us remember that most people who died during this period died during that crucial week of 26th, 27th, 28th, specifically, 29th, 30th.  That is when most of the deaths, the 200 deaths, took place.  And they didn't take place on the Edendale Road.  They didn't take place anywhere near the Edendale Road.  They took place in the valleys higher up.  Now, are you saying that the plan was to deploy Defence Force vehicles to keep open the Edendale Road?  That was your primary purpose.

WITNESS:   Yes, that was the primary purpose at the outset.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  And the purpose of keeping the Edendale Road open was so that people from Vulindlela could get to work and -could get to work unhindered.

WITNESS:   Well, Sir, I didn't mention names, but what I am saying is that at the time also roads were sort of blocked, and we thought as security forces that it would be of importance to keep that road open.  But I didn't suggest for one moment that that road was kept open at the cost of whatever happened in that week.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Yes, Brigadier, you didn't make that suggestion, but it appears as though the fact that the Defence Force was deployed in the Edendale Road to keep the Edendale Road open meant that they could not be deployed in the areas where witness after witness at this hearing have suggested they should have been deployed.  They should have been deployed where people were being murdered and where people were having their houses looted and burned.  That is where they should have been deployed, not keeping the Edendale Road open.

WITNESS:   Well, Sir ... (intervention)

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  And can you tell me who made - who made the decisions at those planning meetings, because there must have been several planning meetings during that period?  Who made those planning meetings as to where the Defence Force should have been deployed?

WITNESS:   I believe that Director Meyer, he was on the ground there, and I also believe that most of the decisions and so on were taken there on the ground.  So that answers the part about the person involved on the ground.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Is that Director Meyer from the South African Police?

WITNESS:   Yes, to my recollection he was the commander on the ground, or involved in the ground.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  And did you have - at that planning meeting did you have members of the Unit Eight Riot Police?

WITNESS:   Well, I don't know, Sir.  Director Meyer, I believe, was part of that unit at that time, but I don't know.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Do you recall the names of any other people from the South African Police that attended those meetings?

WITNESS:  At the time the new officer commanding of that unit arrived.  He was called Colonel Bok Fourie.  That is - he was the commander of that unit at the time I believe.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Now, you're saying that you were aware of the size of the tragedy that was taking place.  You visited refugee camps.  Could you have made a decision and taken what resources were available to you, your six armoured vehicles, your hundred soldiers - could you have said, "No, look, it's nonsense just keeping this road open. Soldiers are more urgently needed up in Ashdown, in Umphumuza, or Xaluza, or KwaShange," where people were dying in their scores?  Could you have made a decision to say, "I am going to take my vehicles and my men and I am going to go and prevent these armed incursions from taking place"?

WITNESS:   Sir, to take a unilateral decision of that nature I believe would have been out of order. So are you saying that you were not empowered to take such a decision?   ---   No, what I am saying is that if there is a need to make a decision on any level, that I believe it must be a joint decision discussed between the police and the Defence Force.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  So in fact those decisions were considered - or those possibilities were considered and a decision was taken not to send the Defence Force up into the valleys?

WITNESS:   I am not saying that, Sir.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Well, why weren't the vehicles there then?