Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: Which one of you is Lizzie September?  And the other lady.

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: I am a witness, I was there when this happened.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your name?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: I am Pauline Kekana.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll ask the Reverend Xundu to help you take the oath, both of you.

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: (sworn states)

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll hand over to June Crichton who will ask questions concerning Desmond Baatjies and after that we will hand over to Mrs Paulina Kekana to testify about herself and about this incident, and we'll take that at the same time, thank you.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs September can you hear me, good morning to you.

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: Yes I can hear you.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs September you are here today to tell us about your son Desmond and that he was killed by police.  What was the date of his death?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: I'm not sure about the date but it was on a Monday.  I was on a farm and someone came to take me from the farm and I arrived at home.  The house was full of people and they told me that my child was dead and he was in the mortuary.

JUNE CRICHTON: What was the situation in the township at that time?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: The situation was very bad, especially on the day of the incident.  I was not there but people told me that the situation was bad, people were being killed all over.

JUNE CRICHTON: I want you to tell us about your son,  First of all how old was he?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: I don't remember clearly but his ID is here and I would like the lady next to me to remind me about this issue.

JUNE CRICHTON: In your statement in front of me it is telling me that he was 22, does that sound right to you, 22 years?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: It might be so if that paper says so.

JUNE CRICHTON: That was Mrs Kekana. And was he a student at the time?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: Yes he was.

JUNE CRICHTON: Was he in a student organisation?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: I'm not sure, Mrs Kekana will tell you because I was on the farm, I used to come and visit him and then go back to the farm.

JUNE CRICHTON: When you were told about what happened to him were you also told who did it?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: Yes I was told, they said it's Fitchi and I went to the police with my husband and I was told that he was not there, he was in George and I never saw him again.

JUNE CRICHTON: There's another name of another policeman buy the name of Ficks Fourie that is mentioned in this statement, do you remember that name?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: Yes they told me about him and we went there and they told us that he went to George and I'm still waiting for him until today.  On the day of the incident I was not there, people just told me who were the police who were shooting these children because they saw these police.

JUNE CRICHTON: You were not there, thank you, now you say that Mrs Kekana...(intervention)

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: My heart was broken and until today I still feel pain because my son was not sick, he was shot and killed.  He might be working for me today, maybe he would have been educated by now.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs September I would like to know now whether there was a post mortem or any kind of inquest?
(recording stops on side A of tape 15 and resumes on side B with a short gap in the recording)

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: ......them and they said they will come back and tell me.  They told me there were bullets inside his body but I'm not sure what kinds of bullets but they did say that they had removed a bullet from his body.

JUNE CRICHTON: And did you receive a death certificate?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: Yes.

JUNE CRICHTON: And were you assisted at all by an attorney?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: No not by any attorneys.  They just said that this white man would come back and he never did.  I used to go there to ask about him and they told me that he was in George until now.

JUNE CRICHTON: Do you have other children that you support?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: No he was the only child, there were two and the other one left and he was the one who was with me.

JUNE CRICHTON: Is there anything else you want to say before we pass on to Mrs Kekana?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: No there there's nothing else but it's just that I'm in a painful situation, otherwise there's nothing more.  I have not been well at all since this incident, I have terrible headaches, I think that I think too much, especially at night.  (witness very upset)

JUNE CRICHTON: When you're ready I would like you to tell us what you would like us to recommend to the President to do for you, when you're ready.

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: I do have a request, that I suffered with this child when I was raising him and I would like to be supported because I suffered a lot, I don't have a husband.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you, is that all you want to say?

ZEZEYI LIZZIE SEPTEMBER: Yes that is all.

JUNE CRICHTON: We feel for you and I'm sorry that you had to go through opening up that wound but in the opening of the wounds we are going to, we hope, bring healing to the Nation so that we have the truth, thank you.
 Can we hand over to Mrs Kekana now?
 Mrs Kekana can you hear me?  Are you wanting to speak English?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: I can speak English but I'll answer you in Xhosa.

JUNE CRICHTON: That's fine, alright.  Mrs Kekana, you are a witness to this event and so I'd just like you to tell us exactly what you saw on that day.