Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS COLEMAN: Well, of course I didn't have very much sort of personal, in a formal way, but within our society I was very aware that the youth in their teenagers, the White youth had to decide were they going to go into the army?
 They didn't have a choice really but you had the, I can't remember, I think it was 1983 that there were 166, the group of 166 who refused to go into the army.  It was a very big stress on teenagers to know that they were going to go into the army.  I know that my eldest son went into the army and he was very, very unhappy in that army.
 And he, I don't know what would have happened to him if he had been sent up to the border in Angola or wherever, because he could never have done it, but I think that for youth to have had to do that and to be involved in Angola and Mozambique, a lot of them didn't believe in the political correctness of going into those places, but they didn't have a choice and so I do believe that a lot of them are traumatised probably from acts that they saw or even did themselves.
 It was just a side of the coin I think that we should look at otherwise it wouldn't be correct.

MS MKHIZE: Okay, thank you very much.  I will ask Commissioners to ask you questions of clarification.  Wynand Malan?

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Miss Coleman, thank you also for this presentation.  I think I have only two questions.  The one relates to the information that you gave us, period 1960 through 1989, you say about 50 000 youth under the age of 18 were charged, taken to court.

MS COLEMAN: That is the figure that I got from the Human Rights Commission, from something very close to me, so you will find it in that document.

MR MALAN: I did see it there, but I want to contrast this in a sense and ask follow up on that.  You also say in your submission, or no, they say in their submission Dr Coleman in his submission stated that about 20 000 youth under the age of 18 were detained without trial.
 Do you know whether there is any record of how many of those or what percentage of those, were eventually also charged?  Surely there is not a clear ...

MS COLEMAN: I am not sure of percentages, but there was a period when they began to charge them quite a lot because of the response from outside, it became very embarrassing for them to have detained them, so a lot of kids were charged with public violence, arson, that sort of charge and in most instances, the cases were withdrawn.
 The case of Sithole for example, he was charged with attempted murder with a friend of his and of course it was just a trumped up charge, but I am sorry, I can't give you those figures, maybe the Human Rights Commission can.

MR MALAN: What I am really exploring is these are not two hard and separate categories, I mean detentions without trial, very many of them did eventuate in criminal charges and prosecuted?

MS COLEMAN: It was a tool being used to depoliticise the reason why they were trying to criminalise the political activities of the children.  They actually didn't have a charge, I am talking generally now.  Obviously there were the odd cases, but in the main the larger percentage, there certainly were trumped up charges and it was a direct result of the work that we were doing in exposing the detention of children.
 They didn't want people to know that they were detaining an 11 year old and a 12 year old, it didn't suit South Africa.  There was a sanctions campaign going on.  They didn't want to be projected as being that sort of government and therefore this was  a tool which they used and it really was a tool, because you saw the majority of cases.  In fact some cases never ever went to court, you know.

MR MALAN: If I may follow on that, you have been referring now really to the - and you have a paragraph on that criminalisation of political activity, now that was a bit confusing when I read it because what ...

MS COLEMAN: What page is that?

MR MALAN: You refer there, this is page 5, you refer in the second paragraph under that heading, to the 50 000 children under the age of 18, that were charged with various crimes.
 Common charges you say were public violence, arson, stoning of vehicles and occasionally attempted murder.

MS COLEMAN: That is what happened to Sithole yes.

MR MALAN: Now reading it as I've just done under the heading, it leaves the impression, but I hope I understood you incorrectly, that you see that as political activity?  Not?

MS COLEMAN: No, it was taking political activity and criminalising political activity.

MR MALAN: Would arson be a crime or would it be a political ...

MS COLEMAN: That is exactly what I am saying to you, that you take Sithole for example who was charged with attempted murder.  That child wasn't a murder, he didn't even know this teacher, Ngweni and neither did the other fellow that was charged with him.  That was the whole tool that they used to depoliticise.

MR MALAN: No, I heard you saying that.  My reference really is you put that under one heading, you refer to 50 000 children being charged.  You are not saying to us all 50 000 of them were charged really because of political activities and that none of them were involved in criminal activities?

MS COLEMAN: Those children who were taken into detention without trial, were charged with criminal offences but had not necessarily been involved in any criminal offences.

MR MALAN: I heard you saying that, I am sorry for pursuing that.

MS COLEMAN: I am sorry ...

MR MALAN: Sorry for pursuing this, when we talk detention, you refer to 20 000, here we are talking of children charged, the figure is 50 000.

MS COLEMAN: Oh, I see.

MR MALAN: And yet you say, you present that under the heading of criminalisation of political activity which leaves the impression again that none of them were criminally culpable.

MS COLEMAN: Okay.  I get you.   I will look at those figures and I will send them to you, okay.  I might have made a mistake there, all right?

MR MALAN: It is really just for an understanding ...

MS COLEMAN: No, absolutely.

MR MALAN: But I get your argument and your perspective about detention taken through for that very purpose.  And then just a last question on my part is the part that you ended up with in reading on page 15.

MS COLEMAN: Sorry, can I go back?  It does strike me that maybe outside of children that weren't held in detention, that is where that 30 000 comes from.  They were not necessarily held in detention.
 Do you see what I mean.  Say they were walking down the street, something happened, they were picked up, they were taken to the police station and they could have been charged.  So that is where I think the discrepancy, they didn't land up in detention, but they were charged.

MR MALAN: I appreciate that.  I am not querying the figures.

MS COLEMAN: But I will check those.

MR MALAN: The last question you say and your husband also responded to some questions on this, especially the 1990 to 1994 period and the August 1990 escalations where he left us with his clear perception that there must have been some coordination, organisation, decision, some conspiracy I think was the concept, the term that he used.
 You say that  a President or a Minister has to be made to answer and  I am not asking you to name, but if we talk the conspiracy language, it implies that some people were not informed and others were informed.
 If you have any specific ideas about this, won't you share this with us perhaps after this and not in public at this moment in time, because I don't think it would be fair to mention names where people haven't been given due notice.