Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if I understood the evidence correctly, the witness said that he would have made an entry if he inspected the firearm and my learned friend said to him, why aren't there any entries in the occurrence book.
	Now, my learned friend is putting quite the opposite, so I don't know if my learned friend perhaps wants an adjournment Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: I think perhaps we should carry on.

ADV MEMANI: I don't need no adjournment.  Now, Mr Khoja, your evidence is that you never inspected the firearm of Mr Ngo, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: The gun is put in a trunk.  When I inspect the guns in the trunks, but the one which I gave him to use, I make an entry in an occurrence book, so that I have given him a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, after you have given him that gun, do you ever inspect it again?  You would go to him and say produce your gun, let me examine it?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't do that.

ADV MEMANI: But it was your evidence earlier on that you do that and that is done at the parade?

UNKNOWN: Let us not confuse these issues.  I have already said we work office hours.  When people are working in shifts, those things are examined or inspected at a parade.
	If I have Mr Ngo as an assistant caretaker, when I give him a gun, I make an entry because I only issue that gun once after a long time, we don't issue guns to people like that all the time.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Khoja, I will take you back to the beginning of this whole thing.  I put it to you when we started, that when a person has been issued with a firearm, that person must produce the firearm for inspection regularly by the supervising officer, and your answer was yes.
	You also said that regularly would be once or twice, or twice or thrice a month and that was, and you said you would record the carrying out of those inspections in the occurrence book.  Now, we are speaking here about firearms issued to the particular officer.

UNKNOWN: That is not the case.

ADV MEMANI: The trunks are new evidence.  You did not refer earlier on to firearms that were kept in a trunk.

UNKNOWN: I don't know how can I reply to that question, because truly you know the truth.  You try by all means that the truth shall not be there.
	I said to you in the barracks we are not using guns as like people who are working in the police stations.  I issue only a gun if there is a particular reason which we are supposed to finish that time.  I inspect the gun before I issue that gun to that person.
	I look at the gun before, then from there I explain to him how to use that gun.  The guns which were put in the safe and which were in the trunks, I inspect them daily so that I will be sure that I put oil and clean them.  That is what I said.
	I do not know why do you want me to change the truth to be a lie because here we are in sought of the truth.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You said in your evidence, when asked about the recording or non-recording of inspection of the gun, I thought you said that there were two types of inspections and I understood you to say that the one kind of inspection was the recordable one, in the OB and that there was another type of inspection which was not a recordable one?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I got the impression that you said that you did carry out the non-recordable type of inspection with regard to this particular firearm and you must tell me if I misunderstood you.
	I am intervening here just in the interest of progress.

UNKNOWN: The gun is put in a safe.  When I inspect other guns, I would check as whether they are oiled, then from there I clean them, then I check as whether they are complete.
	When I take that gun, then I inspect that gun first.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He was referring to inspections subsequent to the issuing of that particular gun and let us not talk about the trunks and the like and confuse things, when in fact you shouldn't do so.
	You are talking about the firearm that you issued to Mr Ngo.  You were asked whether you subsequently inspected that and you said there were two types of inspections, as already explained to me.  And then I have told you that I got the impression that you said you did carry out an inspection of this particular firearm, but the kind of inspection that you carried out, was the non-recordable one.
	If I misunderstood you, you must say so.

UNKNOWN: You, I think you are correct.  It differs when you issue a gun to the barracks and to issue the gun when the barracks is on leave, you should record that gun on the occurrence book, and that I've inspected the gun.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: After issuing this firearm to Mr Ngo, did you from time to time inspect it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I inspected the gun.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you record that any where?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did record.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where did you record that?

UNKNOWN: On the occurrence book.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, thank you Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: I am indebted to His Lordship.  How often did you inspect the firearm?

UNKNOWN: On the day I issue the gun, I inspect the gun, I would not say how many times.  But the day I issue the gun, I inspect the gun.

ADV MEMANI: And thereafter, how often do you inspect the firearm?

UNKNOWN: If I have not issued that particular gun to a particular person, I put it in a safe and we do not make an entry.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, we've got the record, you've given Ngo a gun because there was something expected at the barracks, and you considered it necessary to issue a gun to him, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: May you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: You've issued a gun to Mr Ngo because he, in your opinion, he needed a gun at the barracks at a certain time?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that gun taken back again?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: How long after you issued it?  The same day, a month later or a year later, or can't you say?

UNKNOWN: At times I would take it on the same day when he knocked off, but at times he knocks off late, then I leave him with that gun.

ADV DE JAGER: So if you've issued a gun this morning, you will take it back this afternoon?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And the next morning, you will issue it again?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  If it is necessary to do so.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, what puzzled us is that there is no entry that you have taken back this gun?

UNKNOWN: It might be like that that it is not there, because I don't see it myself.  They have not showed me the page.  But when he knocked off, I would take the gun back.  If it is necessary to leave the gun with him, I would do so.  But at the time I would take it back when he knocks off.
	If it is not a personal issue, I would take it back from him.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, now in this case was it a personal issue or not?

UNKNOWN: It was not a personal issue.

CHAIRPERSON: In this specific case you set out in detail the number of the firearm, the ammunition you are giving to him, and as I understand it, you got him to sign for the receipt of it?  Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: A very formal handing over?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you say then when he knocked off, you just took it back?

UNKNOWN: It would depend on the circumstances as to whether shall I take it back or leave it with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we want to know about this gun.

UNKNOWN: It was taken back from him and it came back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: And no entry was made, you didn't sign for receipt of the gun, he didn't sign as the person who handed the gun over?

UNKNOWN: There is no entry of the gun, I haven't looked clearly.   But it should have been there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I have looked, I think counsel have looked and I don't think anyone has seen an entry indicating that you had taken this gun back, counter signed by you and proper official entry.