Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MS VAN DER WALT: I am very sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just ask Mr Theron again the questions concerning this page please.

MS VAN DER WALT: I see it is page 47 of Volume 5, page 48 and 49 that the statement is on?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then on page 47, the second paragraph, that is where you mention Major Deetlefs and Pienaar and not De Kock, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct, Colonel De Kock was also there.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then on page 47, paragraph 5, you mention that "I switched on a blue light as well as my flashlight to draw the driver's attention to stop", is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is not correct, there was no blue flickering light as well as no other vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: You only had a light, what light did you have?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: It was the same light that was earlier discussed, it is a very bright light, a search light that one could handle with your hand Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that you did not testify during the second inquest?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I did not testify during the second investigation, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You apply in these two incidents for the murders of these people?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You knew that in both instances that the persons would be killed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also apply for any other offence which might emanate from this offence?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: As well as for defeating the ends of justice and perjury?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And any other deed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Prinsloo, any questions?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr
Chairman.  Mr Theron, during your involvement with the Piet Retief Security Branch were you tasked with several investigations of terror where MK and ANC were involved?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: There were incidents at Sasol II, are you aware there of?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I am aware of that Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: There were the attacks which I have already put in the Eastern Transvaal, to the previous witness?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, the landmine attacks and the bomb explosions, I am aware of that Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there a high incident of insurgents coming into the country?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson, as far as I can recall from 1985, there was an increase Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: According to your experience, persons who came into the country in this manner, who came through the fence, and did not come through the border post, were they armed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, they were armed Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to your information, members of the ANC were well-trained soldiers?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you in the circumstances which reigned in the country, did you see them as the same as a person who was embroiled in a war, part of the Security Forces against the ANC?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I believe so Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And is it so that usually no conventional methods were used to combat the situation?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is so Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see this instruction as the execution of your general duties?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I did Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you  Mr Chair.  Mr Theron, were you the handler of the informer or the source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And had you for several years worked with this source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, approximately a year, I cannot say exactly how, but approximately one year.

MR CORNELIUS: You have tested the quality of the source's information, you were satisfied?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.  Previous information that I received, was also tested with other sources and the source was regarded as a reliable source.

MR CORNELIUS: When you received this information, did you process it and submit it to your immediate superior?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I did Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And on each turn, was it sent through to Security Head Office in Pretoria?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: The specific information with regard to the Piet Retief incidents, was this promoted to Pretoria?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I cannot really recall whether the specific infiltration was sent through in writing, I doubt it actually.

MR CORNELIUS: You say you had no doubt that the persons would be armed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And your information that they would be armed, were conveyed to De Kock and C-Section?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My Attorney has just been requested, I am referring to page 99 of the Volume 1, paragraph  8 thereon, just to put something to the witness.   You make the statement here that Colonel De Kock had given Roelf Venter to place arms in the vehicle, this must be a fault because we have heard that Martiens Ras said that he did it and in any case, according to the Attorneys who represent Mr Roelf, he was not even there?  Is that reference to Venter's name a mistake?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, yes, after I had heard the evidence, it is quite acceptable to me, the evidence of Mr Ras that it might have been different.  Why it was mentioned was because at a stage it was mentioned that Mr Roelf Venter was there, and I assumed, but I accept the evidence of Mr Ras.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, then I have just been asked to place on record that the Attorneys appearing for Mr Venter said that they will consider filing an affidavit just to confirm that their client wasn't present.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Booyens.   Mr Knight, do you have any questions?

MR KNIGHT: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, just one or two.   With regard to the statement, that is the false statement which you made in Bundle 5, on page 47 to 49, I see it was done on the 26th of May 1989, it was signed on that date.  Is it also your recollection that it was during that time?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, it seems as if it is the 26th of May 1989.

MR LAMEY: Is it that also your recollection that it was in 1989?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: The person before whom you attested to it, do you remember who it was?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: It was Brigadier Van Wyk.  It seems like that from the statement and as far as I could recall, it was Brigadier Van Wyk.

MR LAMEY: If you page to page 52, we will see with regard to Mr Rorich.  His was signed on the 8th of June, it seems as if it was Brigadier Van Wyk?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: It seems so Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Can you independently recall, was the statement that you signed here, was it typed and prepared beforehand before you signed it, or do you recall how it happened?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: As far as I can recall Chairperson, Brigadier Van Wyk met with us one by one in an office.  I cannot recall whether the statement was prepared later and I signed it, but it could be so, but I cannot recall it.