Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It sounds like a large number of tablets, it's 50 kilograms.  The amount of grams required for one grenade is 30 grams according to the normal procedures.  That means that you can make a few thousand grenades, and that would be the end of the story.  Those will not make any one person dependant on it, but it will combat the unrest.  You don't want that the person will become so angry that he doesn't care whether he dies or not, you want to calm them down.  There were techniques where they used helicopters for these grenades.

YASMINE SOOKA: It just sounds so terrible that it wasn't so dangerous, I think we're laughing, but we actually underestimate what you actually got up to.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

UNKNOWN: General, I understood you to tell us earlier on that you were the Head of Forensic Services for the Police.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That is correct, I was in charge of six different departments, one of which was, since 1985, the Forensic Department.

UNKNOWN: Right, now riot control, does that fall under - does that come within your ambit as well?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Oh yes, I had control, I was involved with since we started having riots in this country, since 1976.

UNKNOWN: Just explain to me, how does that fall within forensics?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Well, one of the things is, how do you apply teargas to be most effective and to be economic, and this is a chemical agent, and a chemical agent ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Dr hold on.  Perhaps I have a very simple view as a support service that the Forensic Department is supposed to be playing, you are supposed to be providing a support to the Police Officers to be making a diagnosis in assisting them coming to a trial, or making ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Yes, I know what you're saying.

UNKNOWN: That's my understanding.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That's part of it.  That's only part of it, sir.  The Policemen, the real Policemen, not a pseudo Policeman like I am, they have various techniques and knowledge the ordinary Policeman does not have.  I know the nature of the chemicals we are working with.  If a grenade is being thrown somewhere and people are hurt, or it's said the people have become ill, or perhaps they died, where do they run to, they run to me, and then they tell me, come and explain to us what had happened here, is it possible, can somebody die from CS?

UNKNOWN: Hold on, Dr, that's exactly the point I'm making, that you are there to assist in diagnosing, let's say, where CS gas has been used, but you are now telling me that, and you seem to have incredible knowledge about it ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I hope I do.

UNKNOWN: That you were now getting into an area whereas gas was going to be produced to control these situations.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, I, as I - what I would understand from that is that it's actually out of your ambit.  That's not within your department to be involving yourself in that.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, you're making a mistake.  The mistake you are making, as a scientist, the question is posed to me by the Head of the counter-insurgency unit, we are having problems with the grenades, they are not effective.  What is the problem, and go to Swartklip, they produce them, see what happens, speak to Swartklip, find out what the problem is.  The problem is it is the wrong kind of teargas.  It's not being used effectively.  Swartklip knows it, but they don't care, they have a formula, they are making their money.  Whether we use 10 000 handgrenades per day, or not, it makes a difference because they make the money.  For us it is very important to improve it.  Now, who is the person