Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: When the casspirs left you behind, I am talking now to the casspir you travelled in before, did the Policemen in that casspir, leave with that casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR STRYDOM: Did the Policemen leave in that casspir?  Did they travel in that casspir from the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the Police left.

MR STRYDOM: In the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they left in the casspir.  It was only the hostel residents who followed on foot.

MR STRYDOM: Gatchene also walked back?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he rode in the casspir as an induna.

CHAIRPERSON: So others got into taxi's?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Gatchene was an induna, he rode with the Police and the casspir that had been escorting us in the township.  There were many items and Gatchene went on, rode on the casspir when they went to deliver the stuff at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: The other people walked on foot back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, we walked on foot.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who off-loaded the items at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know who off-loaded the goods, I just saw them at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you see the goods again at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were inside the yard, the goods were inside the yard.  There was a main gate at the hostel and there is an open space near that gate and that is where I found that goods.

MR STRYDOM: And the goods you found there, were those the goods not only from your casspir, but from all the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is so, there were many items that I saw.

MR STRYDOM: How did you know which items are the items you stole in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I could recognise them because I had only stolen two items, the TV and the video and I took them.

CHAIRPERSON: As we understand from you, all the stolen items from the four casspirs were put together on the ground, inside the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we understood that, now what he wants to find out is how did you know that this is the television set that you stole and this is the video that you had stolen, how did you identify the goods?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I recognised them because the TV set that I had stolen, was big.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you identify them by the size?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes

MR STRYDOM: You don't know what the make of that TV was?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I am not educated.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the video, how did you manage to identify the video?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was flat and that small.  I recognised that this was mine, and it was black in colour.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the only video that was there?  There were no other video's there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only saw that one.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the TV?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were other TV's and some other items that I could not recognise.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was just one video and you knew that you had stolen the video, so this must be your video?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Strydom, what time did you come back to the hostel, do you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.

ADV SIGODI: Was it at night or was it ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was at night, I cannot remember the time.

ADV SIGODI: Did you collect these goods at night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there are lights inside the hostel.  We collected them after they had been delivered by the casspir inside the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: On your way back to the hostel, did you see any vehicles travelling in the street you were walking in?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there were cars travelling along the main road.

MR STRYDOM: Private vehicles or military vehicles or Police vehicles or what kind of vehicles did you see?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just saw private vehicles, I did not see military vehicles.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see anyone of the attackers in your group, firing shots at any vehicle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see anyone firing.

MR STRYDOM: In the township, did you see any person breaking windows?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see people breaking windows, but I cannot identify them, because I went inside the houses.

MR STRYDOM: So you can't identify any person that broke windows?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot tell a lie.  I do not know who broke the windows.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you state in your evidence in chief that you remember one of your fellow attackers breaking windows, and you gave the name of Stikenauw?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember that properly.  I said Stikenauw had told me that he had raped a woman.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you and I've got the note here right in front of me, that you said that Stikenauw told you that he raped - you connected Stikenauw with something that was said about the rape, I agree with that, but before that you said I remember the fellow attackers breaking windows and you then, in that context also mentioned Stikenauw, so why are you changing your version?  Why can't you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know about that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you deny that you said that Stikenauw broke windows?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I say I don't know.

MR STRYDOM: I don't know what you mean when you say "don't know."  Can you tell me, do you remember him breaking windows or didn't you see him breaking windows?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I said I did not see anyone.  They did break windows, but I went inside the houses.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that maybe hundreds of houses' windows were broken, you can't state that you saw any one of the people with you that broke a window?  Why not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not see anybody breaking windows.

MR STRYDOM: Am I correct when I say that many, many houses' windows were broken or is that a wrong statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I will not dispute that.  I will not dispute it.

MR STRYDOM: Did you yourself break any windows?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I did not break any window.

MR STRYDOM: In one of those first five houses, did you see anybody breaking windows there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, I stated before that I did not see anyone breaking windows.  I went into the houses to deal with the business at hand.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that today you stated that in one of those houses, I think the third or fourth house, the group broke windows, some people of your group, broke windows.  Do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember that.

MR STRYDOM: This story that you state that Stikenauw said something about rape, what did you hear?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He told me that he had raped someone in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: When did he tell you that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: After the attack on Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: On your way back to the kwaMadala hostel on the night of the attack or what, or when?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to know you said he told you after the attack, now I want to know, was that on the way back when he told you that, back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He told me on the same day, after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Once again, you are mumbling something.  I want to hear your Zulu words, just speak up please.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said he told me on the same night of the attack, after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Did you say the same night of the attack, after the attack, is that what you said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was after the attack on the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: But just before that you said on the day after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I must have misunderstood you.