Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR SHEZI: The instructions to go to Chesterville to try and infiltrate, how would that have got to Sgt Radebe for instance, the one who led the group who eventually went into the scene?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Could you repeat that please.

MR SHEZI: All right, okay, the instructions to go to Chesterville in particular with the group what was led by Sgt Radebe, how would that have got to Sgt Radebe, who would have told him to do so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson I believe that it would have been at the initiative of Nortje, it could be that he received information from the Branch or that information had been spread to him by another means.  But here it is testing and searching that is involved.

MR SHEZI: Nortje would have done this out of his own, on his own initiative, without consultation with you, without you giving an authorisation for him to do that as the Commander of the whole Vlakplaas, C10 Unit which had come for this purpose?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson yes, he can use his own initiative.  He could already quite possibly have been already with the station, he could have covered that with the last trains, he could have possibly already have checked the last taxi stands and then decided let's go and look at another place.  But this all speculation, this is left over to the member's initiative.

MR SHEZI: As a matter of protocol, as a person who was a Commander, I am sorry who was the Commander, what would have been the procedure, wouldn't you have been told about this?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the mandate is to look for terrorists.  I would not limit the members about where they could search for terrorists, they know where to find me, I am at a central point, we have five or six groups operating and I was at a central position, where I found myself.

MR SHEZI: No, my question is, shouldn't you sanction any operation of any particular sort?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, if he was in Umlazi first and then decided to go to Chesterville, that is his initiative.

MR SHEZI: Are you suggesting that the members that you came down with here in Durban, it was just free for all, they could go wherever they wanted to go, employ whatever methods they wanted to employ, is that what you are saying?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, this is not a question that there had been no control, they would go or they would act on information or suggestions from the Security Branch and over and above the fact that we report and investigate information, that the Security Branch listen to telephone calls, they have their own informers and they have their own sources and then they could possibly channel these people in a certain direction.

MR SHEZI: The Chesterville incident for instance, at some stage it used, what was involved was the use of an AK47 which had been properly obtained, where permission was sought, application was made, it was fetched within a particular context properly, are you saying the use of an AK in that operation could have been done by Willie Nortje on his own initiative, with his own discretion, is that what you are saying?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, let me put it to you broadly, as the rest of the people deploy in the country, if we employed in a week and it is for a period of a month, then I possibly spent another week in Pretoria, the other people would possibly be one group n Cape Town, one group in Natal and the other group in Piet Retief, and the Division Leader would then go to the Security Branch and they would work under the command of the Security Branch and then they would gather information and from there onwards they would use their own initiative to try to capture these terrorists.

MR SHEZI: Sorry, can we just focus on the Chesterville incident, you said this was not a clandestine operation, as a result the obtaining of an AK was done in terms of a certain particular procedure which Vlakplaas operated, is that so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, this was not a clandestine operation, then we could have just shot the people and disappeared, this is clandestine.   The way in which they had used the AK is a question of going in in a covered way, the people took responsibility for the shooting, they did not run away from this, it was not a clandestine operation.

MR SHEZI: What I am talking about was that the AK that was eventually used to convince those people in Chesterville - sorry can I finish - had initially been obtained by yourself and Nortje from Schoon in Vlakplaas in a certain, particular, proper way, isn't that so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, if a situation had developed where it would have been necessary for these people to confirm their bona fides and they could have used the AK for this purpose, not specifically just Nortje, if another group had information and they felt that they could possibly infiltrate a cell or they could gain someone's confidence by showing an AK, then the same AK would have been given to another group to treat it in this way.

MR SHEZI: If I may ask you, how did the Nortje group obtain that AK in order to take it with them and eventually ending up in Chesterville with it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the AK was drawn from Security Headquarters and Nortje handled the weapon from there.

MR SHEZI: So are you saying the use and control of this AK47 was solely within the discretion and exclusive use of Nortje, you knew nothing about it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, this is not what I said Chairperson.  I said that I had gone along with Nortje to Brig Schoon who had written this thing out, we went down to Capt Drury and we went to draw the weapon there and Nortje handled the weapon from there, only later on that day, I went.

MR SHEZI: What I am trying to find out is, the use and control of that AK, was it under your supervision as a Unit Commander?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I would overall be in command of that weapon Chairperson, it is not a question that I disassociate myself with the weapon.

MR SHEZI: And that weapon was taken and eventually used in Chesterville, are you saying at that stage and with regard to that particular incident, you knew nothing about it, Nortje just used his own initiative and discretion?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, it is not that Nortje was acting recklessly, they acted in the face of information that they had gained at Joint Management System that had existed, they went to go and test this information and to go and do a search operation, and this at the end of the day, was the result of this.

MR SHEZI: I am not talking about the culpability of Nortje, let's talk about the Management System that was in place at that time, that includes you as the Unit Commander, isn't it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson - sorry, could you please repeat.

MR SHEZI: All right, let's talk about the Management System that you say was there and within which ...

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Please start again, I am sorry.

MR SHEZI: Let's go back and talk about the Management System which was in place at the time and within which Nortje operated.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Please continue.

MR SHEZI: That Management System consisted of you as a Unit Commander, isn't it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, that is correct.

MR SHEZI: And there is an AK involved of which you had overseen its use and control, isn't it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: That is not being used recklessly, isn't it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: So if Nortje was to take that AK to go wherever that he was going to, he should have got your permission or you should have known about it at least?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, not necessarily.  He uses his initiative as a Commander on the ground.