Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There are many things that make me unhappy, I accept it.  I do not accept that it is correct.  If the new government were angels with white wings then I would but they did the same thing as I did.  I differ from the current government.  I have no problem, there was a democratic election where they have the majority so I don't have issue with it.  If you want to talk politics, we can talk for hours.

MR HOCKEY: ...(inaudible) the Constitution of South Africa?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not necessarily agree with it but I do accept it as the new Constitution of South Africa.

MR HOCKEY: I've got no further questions, thanks Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe when we are still there.  What sort of work are you doing now, Mr Verster?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This is not the issue now.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Verster, I want to get some clarification.  Who was the brainchild of the CCB operation?  Whose idea was this to establish it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is also a very long story, Chairperson.  Special Forces, there was yearly planning done and instructions were given by the Chief of the Defence Force and from those instructions I received guidelines from General and thereafter other people and I made the plans and then I proposed or submitted them to the Commanding General of Special Forces and he gave it to the Chief of the Army and the Chief of the Army spoke to the Minister and then budgets and so forth were approved so it was a collective planning of the South African Defence Force where I made the plans and co-ordinated them and submitted them because I was appointed the Director.

MS COLERIDGE: So who ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you go on, and at that time, what was your rank in Special Forces, your military rank?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I was a Colonel, Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Who was the Chief of Defence Force at the time?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Gen Jan Geldenhuys.

MS COLERIDGE: And who was the Commanding General of Special Forces?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was Gen Joubert, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the State President at the time was obviously P W Botha, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying these are the basic - your Chief of Defence Force and Commander of Special Forces, they were basically, they created CCB, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No it was a collective thing, it was collective planning where we made the plans according to guidelines and it ended up in the CCB.

MS COLERIDGE: And were you also part of the structure in planning the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I was responsible for that planning.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the evidence was that he drew up the actual plans based on guidelines that were given to him.

MS COLERIDGE: Now I just want to move on to the operatives and then as well to your commander who was Gen Webb at the time.  Mr Verster, you accept that Gen Webb was your commander during the Athlone Learning Centre incident, the Gavin Evans incident and the Dullah Omar incident, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: We see that Gen Webb is only applying for the Athlone learning centre incident.  Can we take it that he did not authorise the incidents for the Gavin Evans incident and the Dullah Omar incident?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I do not want to comment on that now.

MS COLERIDGE: It is true, I see that in just in bundle C, Chairperson, in the transcripts in Section 29, page 98 and 99.  I'll just give the page referencing, Chairperson.
	You said that Gen Webb was responsible for the appointments for everybody, he authorised the appointments and you had weekly meetings with Gen Webb, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes but now you are stating it semantically incorrect.  Gen Webb was the Chairperson, I was responsible for appointments but I did not make any appointments without consulting the Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Fine, fair enough, I want to come to the issue of your meetings.  In your Section 29 you said you had weekly meetings with Gen Webb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes there were exceptions but more or less that's right.

MS COLERIDGE: So can we accept generally that during your term that was the general practice, that you would have meetings with Gen Webb, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: So can we accept for the purposes of these incidents, the Gavin Evans and the Dullah Omar, that you also had meetings with Gen Webb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I referred to meetings of the usual weekly co-ordinating meetings.  If there was a specific project then we would meet or discuss telephonically or in some other manner.

MS COLERIDGE: I just want to refer you to bundle C, page 154, Chairperson.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Which page?

MS COLERIDGE: Page 154, bundle C.

CHAIRPERSON: 154.

MS COLERIDGE: This is a question that was asked by Mr Malan and then you responded, it's the paragraph where it starts with Mr Malan.  He says"
"Well I take it that all projects went over your table so you would know such serious instructions, such as for instance to observe for instance Mr Omar and to eliminate him. It's not something you are likely to forget if you gave such an order or sanctioned such an operation?"
And your response was:
"Yes, I applied for amnesty for that and I want to put it to you again, people were appointed to monitor them, the normal planning cycle was followed and it was discussed with the Chairperson and I see that as relating to the Dullah Omar incident."
Can you just comment on that for us please?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, it's clear Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: So are you saying that in the Dullah Omar incident, the monitoring of Dullah Omar was actually discussed with Gen Webb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes I am of the opinion that all projects were discussed with Gen Webb.

MS COLERIDGE: So can we then take it that as a matter of course the Gavin Evans incident you'd also discussed with Gen Webb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: I now want to refer just to the operatives in your unit.  Firstly to Mr Barnard.  We believe that he was on probation, this was the facts given to us in your Section 29 as well as in your amnesty application form and he was dismissed, he was on probation for a certain amount of time and then he was dismissed.  Can you just elaborate as to why he was dismissed from the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, this is debatable whether he was on probation.  The incident was through his co-ordinator, it came to my knowledge that he directly spoke with certain police officers and there was a meeting that I had with the intelligence community.  It had nothing to do with Special Forces, we met at the house of one of the senior officers and during this meeting, when I arrived at the house, a few military intelligence people sat there and they tried to ask me questions about a person by the name of McQuillan and McQuillan was somehow connected to Ferdi Barnard and they wanted to know what was going on and I immediately realised that there was a connection here between Mr Barnard and military intelligence and I directly, after I left the meeting before it was concluded and I told the handler that Mr Barnard had to be sacked, it was nothing we had against him it was the fact that he had connection with persons who were attached to the uniformed branch of the army and it was a known fact that he was a member of the CCB.

MS COLERIDGE: What was your opinion when you heard that Slang van Zyl actually employed Mr Barnard or used his assistance in the Dullah Omar incident, directly going against your orders in fact?