Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR BOOYSENS: That is the very pamphlet I'm referring witness to.  I'll just for the sake of clarity hand in the copy.
DOCUMENT HANDED IN

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: That's page 135, is it?  Is it page 135?

MR BOOYENS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.  Amongst others at that time, there had been a certain Mr Titi, T-I-T-I, in detention.  During the interrogation of Mr Titi, it appeared that, according to his statements, the deceased might have played a role in the drafting of this document?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Could you for purpose of ease identify a copy of the document?

MR SNYMAN: This is the document.

MR BOOYENS: Let as mark it as A and hand in it.  Or rather, let's mark it as B.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you handing in the original?

MR BOOYSENS: Mr Chairman, we have got an original copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, not one that was made by us, but by somebody else.

CHAIRPERSON: But this is not page 135?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, it is the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same document?

MR BOOYENS: It's the same document.  It's just for identification purposes that I'm asking leave to hand this in.
EXHIBIT B HANDED IN

MR BOOYENS: With regard to the interrogation, Mr Jones and Mr Biko were arrested at the same time, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: I believe you have already mentioned, but for completeness sake, the then Col Goosen, called together an investigative team, consisting of yourself and the other four applicants;  Siebert, Niewoudt and Marx?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were the senior officer in this investigative team?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What would your instructions have been?

MR SNYMAN: Our instructions were that we should obtain information from the detainee in order to obtain a statement from him with regard to the pamphlet in order to institute proceedings
against him.
	We also received information that he did not obey his restraining order, but had travelled to Cape Town in the process of this breach of the restraining orders.

MR BOOYENS: How did you co-ordinate the interrogation?  What did you start with?

MR SNYMAN: Peter Jones were interrogated first by members of the investigative team in order to obtain information while we investigated the second person.

MR BOOYENS: That is the deceased?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you obtain certain information from Mr Jones?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You have also referred already to information from Mr Titi?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you on the 6th of September give instructions that the deceased would have to be collected from Walmer Police Station?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: To whom did you give this instruction?

MR SNYMAN: To Cpt Siebert and Warrant-Officer or Detective-Sergeant Niewoudt.

MR BOOYENS: Did they collect and during the course of that morning bring him to the Sanlam building to security branch offices.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you recall at what time he arrived?

MR SNYMAN: I would imagine that it would have been around nine o'clock in the morning, if I recall correctly.

MR BOOYENS: There were offices which had been outfitted as interrogation rooms;  is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: To the best of your knowledge, upon arrival at the Sanlam building he was brought to these offices?  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Were all four members of the investigative team present?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: When he was brought in, what would his state of well-being have been?  He was normal.  He was not at that point hurt in any way?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was he hand-cuffed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, he was.

MR BOOYENS: Only hand-cuffed or also foot chains?

MR SNYMAN: Both of these.

MR BOOYENS: He then came into the room.  Were these shackles removed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I gave instructions that the shackles and handcuffs were to be removed.

MR BOOYENS: What happened subsequent to the removal of the shackles and handcuffs?  Did Mr Biko remain standing, did he sit down, or what happened?

MR SNYMAN: Capt Siebert first began asking to ask questions to Mr Biko, with regard to his travels to Cape Town and the breach of his restraining order and also the handing out of the pamphlet.
	It had been very clear or it then became very clear that Mr Biko was not going to co-operate.

MR BOOYENS: Could you expand why do you say that there had been no co-operation?  Did he resist the questioning?  Or what exactly did he do?  Did he refuse to answer?  What exactly was the situation?

MR SNYMAN: His actions were rebellious and aggressive.  He refused to answer questions put to him.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage was he confronted in any way with the information already available to you with regard to the pamphlet?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.  Capt Siebert confronted him and
interrogated him with regard to the pamphlet.

MR BOOYENS: That is then with regard to the suggestion that he was - or that he took part in both authoring and distributing the pamphlet?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was the response of the deceased to this?

MR SNYMAN: He did not react in any way to questions put to him.  At that time he also attempted to sit down on a chair in the interrogation room at which time Capt Siebert instructed him to remain standing, since he was busy with the interrogation.

MR BOOYSENS: Eventually an incident occurred.  Let us call it a fight.  What brought this about?

MR SNYMAN: It had to do with the chair.  He sat down on the chair again.  Capt Siebert then said to him ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: Did he shout at him?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, he shouted at him to stand up.  He did not respond to this instruction.  Siebert then took him by the clothes and pulled him upright very quickly.  In this process the deceased attempted to punch at Siebert.

MR BOOYSENS: Did he in fact hit him?

MR SNYMAN: No, he missed him.

MR BOOYENS: Could you tell us what you observed immediately subsequent to this?

MR SNYMAN: When he pushed the chair very quickly in the direction of Capt Siebert, Mr Beneke entered through the door.

MR BOOYENS: You are leaving the context here.  You are referring to the pushing of a chair.  Did the deceased push a chair in the direction of Siebert?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did he attempt to punch at Siebert before or after pushing the chair or at exactly the same time?

MR SNYMAN: If I recall correctly, it was when he was pulled up from the chair.

MR BOOYENS: You are referring to Mr Beneke.  That would have been the other applicant in this application.  He then came into the picture.  What happened?

MR SNYMAN: Mr Beneke shouldered Mr Biko and pushed him so that he fell towards the wall.

MR BOOYENS: You are saying that he shouldered him?  What would you mean by that;  that he bumped him with his shoulder?

MR SNYMAN: That is right.  He ran in and with his shoulder, he shouldered him.

MR BOOYENS: You are indicating where?  Where did he hit him?

MR SNYMAN: Roughly below the ribs.

MR BOOYENS: What would the effect have been of this shoulder shouldering?

MR SNYMAN: The deceased fell backwards towards the wall.

MR BOOYENS: If you say fall;  do you mean he fell on the ground or did he simply shuffle backwards?

MR SNYMAN: He stumbled or staggered backwards.

MR BOOYENS: Can you recall whether he came into contact with the wall?

MR SNYMAN: That might have been possible.

MR BOOYENS: Apart from staggering backwards, did this have any other effect?

MR SNYMAN: We noted that he appeared disorientated.

MR BOOYSENS: Could you wait a moment.