Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-12

J A VORSTER: The farm or the safe-house was under my custody or my control and I believe that that is the reason why I was called.  My other role was to bring Wasserman and du Preez to the farm because they were not familiar with the environment or the situation of the farm.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, no questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: I trust from what you've just said that you had nothing to do with the interrogation at all of Tekere?

J A VORSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you know who interrogated him?

J A VORSTER: Chairperson, while Wasserman and du Preez dug the grave, Taylor and I were in the house with Tekere and Taylor consistently communicated with Tekere in Zulu and what emerged from that is something that I cannot comment on or even say anything about, because I don't understand the language.

CHAIRPERSON: Which means that as far as you are concerned, you did not converse or talk to Tekere?

J A VORSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions to ask?

MR LAX: Mr Vorster, I just want to be clear on something.  When you got to the farm at Elandskop, Taylor and Tekere were already there?

J A VORSTER: That is correct.

MR LAX: Were they waiting at the house?  Were they inside the house?

J A VORSTER: They were inside the house.

MR LAX: How had Taylor got access to the house?  You were in control of the property?

J A VORSTER: The key was left at a particular point and Taylor was aware of where that point was.

MR LAX: Was it normal that he would just make use of the house without informing you beforehand?

J A VORSTER: No, Chairperson.  I believe that that was the reason why he called me to the farm, because he was already there and I had to know about it.

MR LAX: Do you have any idea how long he had been at the house before he phoned you?

J A VORSTER: I have no idea and I also cannot recall at what time he contacted me during the day, but there was a pre-appointed time for Wasserman and du Preez to wait for me in Pietermaritzburg, after which we would go to the farm.  I cannot say at what time Taylor arrived on the farm.

MR LAX: But he was alone with Tekere on the farm until you brought Wasserman and du Preez there?

J A VORSTER: That is correct, as far as I can recall.  I cannot recall anybody else there.

MR LAX: And how did Tekere look when you saw him?  What condition was he in?

J A VORSTER: To me he appeared normal.  I cannot say with certainty but if I think back, I think that he was cuffed, or that his hands were bound.  He sat in an easy chair and Col Taylor sat opposite him on another item of furniture.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where they had come from?

J A VORSTER: I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR LAX: Just one last thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: And you didn't ask Taylor where this guy came from and what he was doing with him there?

J A VORSTER: Chairperson, as I have stated in my evidence in chief, I cannot recall what was said when, but I cannot recall that Taylor told me where he had come from or how he had been arrested.  As I have stated, I may have read in his submission or his application, that this man was on his way to place an explosive device, but I cannot recall that he told me this specifically.

MR LAX: You see, all I'm just trying to understand is, you find Taylor there with a man, by all accounts you don't ask him anything, you just assume that this is okay.  Didn't your inquisitiveness or your - I mean, after all you were a detective, you were a Security Branch policeman, you must have wondered what on earth he was doing with this man?

J A VORSTER: Chairperson, as I have stated, I cannot recall everything that was said.  I may have asked him, it is possible, and he may have told me, but I simply can't remember it.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR VISSER: If you'll just allow me one moment, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps not by way of re-examination, perhaps not re-examination, but perhaps it might be helpful just to place on record that very soon before Col Taylor died, my attorney had made an appointment with him together with his attorney in order to obtain fuller information from him to place before the Amnesty Committee, but before that could come to pass, he had passed away, so we are stuck with the situation where we have ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We can't take the matter any further.

MR VISSER: We can't take the matter any further at all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR VISSER: And I may add that perhaps Mr Nel will draw your attention to that, that on the record in the previous hearing it was made quite clear that towards the end of his life he was very confused and you will also see it in one of the amnesty applications which is to come before you, that he was very confused about facts of incidents and details, Chairperson.  I refer you to the Ndwandwe record at page 731 where Mr Nel actually brought this out, the bad memory of Mr Taylor and you can read that for yourself, Mr Chairman, I'm not going to read it into the record, but there were problems discovering from Mr Taylor towards the end of his life, what he knew and the problem was that in certain incidents he just gave an order and the applicants now find themselves that they have to rely on what they were told by him and they can't take the matter any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to clear in my own mind, what was the relationship in terms of seniority between Mr Taylor and the applicant?

J A VORSTER: Chairperson, at that stage I was a Major and Col Taylor was already a Colonel.  He was the senior officer.

MR VISSER: Would it have occurred to you to doubt or question or to insubordinate his orders?

J A VORSTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: May this witness then be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, may I interpose, with your permission please, before the witness is excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MS THABETHE: My learned friend referred to an arrest that took place in 1978, I don't know whether I'm mistaken.  I just want to clarify that point before we proceed.

MS THABETHE: 1978.  He referred to something in 1978.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, we referred to the additional bundle at page 4, where a lady by the name of Anna Sithole told the investigation unit that he was politically active since 1978.  That was one statement.  The question of the arrest should not even have been mentioned by myself, because it refers to her which is irrelevant.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I just wanted clarification on that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED