Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  I wouldn't say that I had a free hand in the sense that one could act beyond the normal parameters, but one could definitely take one's own decisions.  It was also one's duty.  And by nature of the situation within the position that one occupied, one had to take decisions.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but if I understand your evidence correctly, that's oral evidence that you gave here and oral evidence that you gave on the 24th of May 1999, what you did, particularly as Commander of Vlakplaas, C1 Section, was known certainly to Brig Schoon.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And you say it must have been known even higher up, at General level, the level of the Generals.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: And you are also saying that this must have reached even the upper echelons of government, in particular, Mr Adriaan Vlok, who was the responsible Minister during the period.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And you say that you were decorated for your deeds.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: In fact you say you were one of the most decorated police officers.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Let's deal with one aspect which has been troubling those I represent and that is the situation of Lt Mose.  Now Lt Mose is the one who under false pretences fetched the four unfortunate young people at the prearranged spot and drove them into the ambush?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane, I've seen the name, but it's spelt differently.  Do you know, do you have a definitive spelling of Lt Mose' name, Mose?  I've seen it as M-O-S-E and I've seen it with an H in it.  I'm now spelling it, M-O-S-S.

MR MOERANE: In the affidavit that was filed in the Piet Retief inquest, his surname was rendered as M-O-S-E.  The affidavit which he presumably signed.  We do not know, because he didn't give evidence, he died of a heart attack we are told, before he could give evidence.  Is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you spell his name M-O-S-E, Mr de Kock?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane.

MR MOERANE: The death of Lt Mose, was there an inquest into his death?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I accept that.  I think that I may have presented an affidavit somewhere that he was on duty and I know that there was a post-mortem.

MR MOERANE: Do you know what the findings of that post-mortem examination were?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I didn't read the report, but it was said to me that there was a blockage of the arteries in the heart and that this led to heart failure.

MR MOERANE: At the time that Lt Moss died, was there concern at Vlakplaas about some askaris, that is turned ANC fighters, about their loyalty?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Could you repeat, I may have lost the context of your question.  I beg your pardon.

MR MOERANE: Well let me come out into the open.  You have mentioned two person who worked for the police, one of them was actually a Constable I believe, or a Sergeant, I'm not so sure anymore, who as attached to Vlakplaas, by the name of Brian Ngqulunga.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: That person was killed.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: In fact to be more precise, he was actually murdered.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Because it was feared that he wanted to go back to the ANC and reveal the secrets of Vlakplaas.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, in particular with regard to the Harms Commission situation.

MR MOERANE: And that was before Mose died.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I'm not certain whether this was before or afterwards.

MR MOERANE: Yes, you see the Harms investigation was in 1989 and Lt Mose submitted his affidavit in 1989 and he was reported to have died the following year, in 1990.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I'm not going to dispute the dates.

MR MOERANE: Then there was another person by the surname of Sekakane.  Do you recall that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: He also worked for the Security Police in Durban.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: He was also murdered.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: For what reason?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, he was the person who had identified Charles Ndaba to the Durban placed askari unit and after Charles Ndaba had been arrested, he identified somebody else and between the two of them they exposed the entire Vula operation.  After that, as a result of information that I had obtained, I heard that Cpt Hentie Botha was involved in the death of these two persons, that is Charles Ndaba and the other person and that Goodwill Sekakane had known about it.

MR MOERANE: So he was murdered to silence him?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  In my Court case I understood that he had issued threats.  It was either about financial remuneration or a promotion, but that was the course that it assumed.

MR MOERANE: Had Lt Mose expressed any remorse for what he had done, or did he give any indications that he might be a security risk?  In other words, a risk to your operations.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Another matter that I have been instructed to raise is the question of sources or informers.  Now the person who gave information about these four persons involved in the first incident, was that your source or was he W/O Pienaar's source?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was Mr Pienaar's source.

MR MOERANE: Did you at any stage speak to this person?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  If I recall correctly, it was the day before the first shooting, or on the same day.  I wanted more confirmation, I wanted to listen to the source myself and for a brief period of time I consulted with the source.

MR MOERANE: Was this a member of the ANC?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, it was sympathiser.

CHAIRPERSON: Sympathiser of the ANC?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Is that person still living?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, there was a report regarding this person in the Weekly Mail, and I believe that this may have been during the final quarter of last year.

MR MOERANE: Now was this person regularly used by the ANC commanders to infiltrate people into South Africa via Eastern Transvaal, what then was the Eastern Transvaal?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, unfortunately I will not be able to make any statements about that.  I think that Mr Pienaar will be able to assist us in that regard.  I only saw the person once.

MR MOERANE: And you know the name of that person?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot recall the name at the moment.  However, with the report which I read, that entire report was given to a very responsible person within the current government or dispensation.  And it would be that one cannot expose such persons to death or serious injury.

MR MOERANE: Was it a male or a female?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The person is female.

MR MOERANE: Do you know whether this person was actually arrested by the ANC?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: And kept in detention for more than a year?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, in a camp outside Lusaka.

MR MOERANE: A camp called Sun City?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, but the detention facility was a shipping crate.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  How did you communicate your plans before launching an operation, to Brigadier Schoon?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Is that in general, or with regard to this specific incident?