Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

MR MEY: The other people which were in your group, in the same casspir, the first house, did they enter the house with you or did some of them say behind in the street?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that it was three people who went into the house and others remained outside.

MR MEY: What did the others do on the outside, shooting at the house or at the people in the street, or what were they doing?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mey, are you asking about the Police Officers or are you asking about the persons who were with him?

MR MEY: I asked about the persons who were with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Please bear in mind that we have covered this ground.

MR MEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Are you in a position to tell this Committee what the other persons in your group did, while you were in the house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, the three of us went inside the house and others remained outside.  We went inside the house and started shooting at the people.

MR MEY: The reason why I am asking you this is because you have testified that the others on the outside, were shooting at the house.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I said the three of us went inside and others remained on the premises, outside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you and please listen to the question, what is being put to you is that you testified that whilst you were inside the house, the persons, some of the persons who were with you in the group, remained outside and were shooting at the house.  Did you say that or didn't you say that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He is not asking his questions properly.  At the first house, three people went in and two remained outside.  There were people who were fleeing from the house, from inside the house and these other two persons, were shooting at those people.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer to the question?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The only person that I saw shooting, was Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is that you told us earlier on that whilst you were inside the house, the people who were outside the house who were in your group, were shooting at the house, did you say that or didn't you say that?  If you answer the question, we will get onto the ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were shooting outside, not inside.  We are the only people who went inside the house, the Police were shooting in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MEY: Was Chaka, when he shot at the people, was he in the casspir or outside of the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said they would get off the casspir because it was driving slowly and they would shoot at the people.

MR MEY: At no stage you saw Rooikop getting off the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I cannot recall seeing him, the only people I recall are Peens and Chaka.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, where did you see Mr Chaka when he was shooting, where was he?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They got off the casspir, shot at the people in the street, and then returned to the casspir, he was outside the casspir.

ADV SIGODI: What I am asking, I am asking about Mr Chaka and in your answer you keep on saying "they".  Did you see Mr Chaka shooting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see him.

ADV SIGODI: Where was he?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was outside the casspir, on the main street in the township.

MR MEY: Was he using a rifle or a handgun or what was he using?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, but it was a small gun.

MR MEY: When you got to the casspirs in the veld, you testified that the presence of Chaka and Rooikop made you think that the people in the casspir, were Policemen.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say so.  Rooikop was present as well as other Officers, including the one who was driving, whom I did not know.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, through what door did you enter the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspir only has three doors, two in front and one at the back, and I got in through the back.

MR MEY: In cross-examination by Mr Lowies, you said the casspir had a side door and that that is the one you entered.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there is a side door, and that is the door through which I got into the casspir.

MR MEY: Where is that door?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the side, as the applicant is indicating, the other two doors are in front.

MR MEY: If I understand you correct now, the casspir's got two doors in the front and a side door?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It has two doors in front.

CHAIRPERSON: And where is that door?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot specify, but I know that it is at the side.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not at the back of the casspir?  what?  You are being asked now about the casspir and that is what we want you to tell us about, where is this door that you are talking about, is it at the back or is it on the side?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is a side door.

MR MEY: Except for the front doors, there is a side door and that is the door through which you entered, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry and is that side door towards the rear end of the casspir, is that what you mean?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The door is on the side of the casspir, not at the back.  It is at the side of the casspir.

ADV SIGODI: Towards the end of the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is possible that it is towards the back.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, I want to clarify this now.  The casspir's got two front doors, do you agree?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  It does have two front doors.

MR MEY: That is right at the front of the casspir, is that correct, at the cabin?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the front doors are right in front.

MR MEY: You did not make use of that or any one of those doors, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only used the side door.

MR MEY: Was there a back door?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is on the side, I did not use the front doors and there was a side door which I used.

MR MEY: You have also indicated that you have driven in a casspir previously to the night of the incident, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is so.  I was taken in a casspir when I was being investigated with regards to the Sebokeng incident.

MR MEY: It is the same vehicle as the one that you were in on the night of the incident, the Boipatong massacre, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is the same.

MR MEY: I want to put it to you that a casspir has no side doors, except for the doors at the cabin, its got a back door.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know sir, because I entered through a side door.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is that the motor vehicle described as a casspir, does not have a side door, it has two doors in front for the driver and the passenger to sit and then one at the back, do you understand that?  Do you understand what I have just described to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the casspir on which you travelled, had a side door?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is a side door, next to the driver's seat.

MR MEY: The colour of the casspirs were yellow?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The casspir on which you were travelling, had a side door next to the driver's seat?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it will be the driver's door and then the side door.

MR LAX: Can I just ask a question.  Apart from the driver's door and this side door next to the driver, presumably for the driver's passenger, did I understand you correctly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, as in a taxi.

MR LAX: There is no other door in this vehicle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I noticed the side door, the one that I used to get into the casspir.

MR LAX: But there is no other door besides those two doors that you noticed?  Have I understood you correctly?