Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

ADV VISSER: Mr Sehlwana, you can solve this whole problem for us very simply.  Did you go through a hole in the game fence and then ran down the river?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: You are confusing me now because you are talking about the fence and I didn't talk anything about the fence, I am talking about the road on top of the bridge, there was no fence.  It is just a river or a spruit.  You are telling me about the fence, I don't know anything about the fence.

ADV VISSER: Did you know there was going to be a Casspir in front of you to block the road?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't know.

ADV VISSER: All right.  When you stopped was the Casspir already in front of you or did it then move in front of the combi?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The way you explain it is that when I appeared the Casspir passed, passed just in front of me.  It was standing alongside my direction.  It was waiting for me that when I stopped it should be just in front of the combi.

ADV VISSER: Yes,and is that what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Visser is asking you, when you stopped, was the Casspir in front of you or not.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, there was no combi when I stopped, there was no Casspir when I stopped.

ADV VISSER: Did you see any persons in the vicinity when you stopped, anybody at all?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't see anybody when I stopped.

ADV VISSER: Did you see tear-gas or did you smell tear-gas in the combi at any time?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I think I smelt tear-gas inside the combi, that is the one which made me to be drowsy, that is the tear-gas smoke, I started to remember now

ADV VISSER: And then you opened the door and you ran out.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I stopped, I opened the door and then I ran.  I smelt tear-gas whilst I was outside the combi not inside the combi.

ADV VISSER: Yes, all right. And then you heard, what is the first thing you heard after you opened the door and ran away, what is the first thing you heard?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: There was confusion about gun shots and tear-gas, I wouldn't tell exactly what happened before, but I smelt tear-gas, together with gun shots at the same time.

ADV VISSER: Well, let me remind you what your evidence as. Your evidence was that somebody asked you in Zulu where you were going.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

ADV VISSER: Was that the first thing that you heard?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I explained that when I opened the door, immediately thereafter somebody said where are you going.

ADV VISSER: Yes.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Thereafter there was confusion of the tear-gas and gun shots.

ADV VISSER: All right. How long after you left the combi did you hear the gun fire?  Was it while you were still near the combi or were you some distance away?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was nearer the combi, not quite a distance.

ADV VISSER: All right. Well, then you were in a perfect position to tell this Committee who fired the first shots;  were the first shots fired from the combi or from elsewhere; and if so, from where?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I have explained many times because you are asking me one thing but all the time. I did explain that the first gun shots, the way I heard, they came from the Casspir. They were directed to the combi.  Because these people inside the car, they were having hand-grenades.  Now that's what I explained initially.

ADV VISSER: But they also had AK-47s,  you also explained that initially, didn't you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I said where I met them, they were lying on the ground, everyone was having his AK-47 on his side.  When they went inside the combi, whether they put them in the back or not, I don't know. I was in front of them and I didn't see when they produced those AK-47s.  Just there I would say the one who was just at my back was the one who was having his AK-47 on his legs.

ADV VISSER: And did he shoot with it, that you know about or did he shoot with it that you know about?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't know as to whether he did shoot or not. I would not know, because by then I was outside.

ADV VISSER: You see, Mr Sehlwana, let me put the question as Ms Khampepe put it to you.  Are you saying the first shots were fired from the Casspir, is that based on an assumption because the people had hand-grenades with them?  Or did you actually observe the first shots coming from the Casspir?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't be able to see the bullets when it is outside the gun. I explained that when I left the car, I pushed the door, then I ran.  From there was, I heard a confusion of gun shots and the smelling of the tear-gas, but the way I heard the sound of the gun shots, it seems it came forward on my direction from the Casspir to the combi.  You are asking me one question at all times so I don't know how to explain it again.

ADV VISSER: But Mr Sehlwana, there is no need to be aggressive, we are just trying to establish what happened.  Isn't the simple truth that you don't know who fired the first shots, because you were confused, your eyes were full of tear-gas and you tried to get away as quickly as you can, and you really don't know who fired the first shots. Isn't that the truth?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I said I don't know, but the direction of the sound of the bullet shots, it seems it came from in front of the combi, on the side of my direction where I was running to.

ADV VISSER: Did you hear anybody swear in a Bantu language before the shots were fired?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Correction, Mr Visser, Black language.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: He said where are you going.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Visser, I just wanted to correct you.  It is a Black language.

ADV VISSER: You didn't hear anybody swear in a Black language?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, I didn't hear anybody saying that.

ADV VISSER: Did you hear anybody say in Afrikaans "hulle skiet op ons"?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: There was confusion.  I wouldn't say that I saw or I heard.

ADV VISSER: I thought that you did tell the Committee members that you saw the Army colonel, as you call him, fall down?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't say anything in that regard.

ADV VISSER: Oh, I'm sorry, then I misunderstood you.  Let me ask you the question then. Did you see anybody fall to the ground?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't say anything about somebody falling on the ground, I explained that after the incident, after the shooting has ended, I saw somebody on the other side lying on the ground.

ADV VISSER: Yes, did you go to him?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I went together with those that I was with at that time, then we went to that body.

ADV VISSER: Yes, did you see him actually with your own eyes, the body of this person that was lying on the ground?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was just standing where - he was standing just next to me, I saw him with my own eyes.

ADV VISSER: Okay. Was he a Black person?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: In my combi there were Black people. I was with the Black people in the combi.

ADV VISSER: Did you see a White man lying on the ground, wounded?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't see any White person lying on the ground, Sir.

ADV VISSER: You gave evidence today, Mr Sehlwana, to say that somebody showed you a wound or you saw a wound in the side of somebody.  Did I hear you correctly?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: You didn't hear me correctly because I said after the whole incident I learnt that one of the colonel of whom I heard yesterday that he was shot on the side, I didn't say I saw somebody lying on the ground being shot.

ADV VISSER: I see.  Right.  Now let's come to
are you okay?  Do you need water or something?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, I have no problem, Sir.  I have water next to me, so I have no problem.