Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

MR CURRIN: Have you spoken to him at all since he has been here the last couple of days, have you 
spoken to him at all?
W/

UNKNOWN: No, I haven't spoken to him at all.

MR CURRIN: Have you possibly approached him about your application and the way you feel and 
your remorse and asked him for forgiveness?
W/

UNKNOWN: No, I did not do that.

MR CURRIN: Were you involved in the bombing of his house before that, a couple of months before he 
was assaulted?
W/

UNKNOWN: It is possible, I was involved in several bomb attacks on several houses.

MR CURRIN: Have you applied for amnesty in respect of all these bomb attacks on all the houses?
W/

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have.

MR CURRIN: And you can't recall the details?
W/

UNKNOWN: No, there were too many, I can't remember.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I really don't have a problem that the witness testifies, but I would ask Mr Currin to 
keep to this specific amnesty application in respect of this specific incident.	As you are aware, WO 
van Vuuren has made various applications pertaining to various incidents, as well as one global application 
pertaining to certain incidents which he cannot remember a lot about.  I object against further interrogation 
about other amnesty applications.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, it just relates to the question PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 146	W/

UNKNOWN: of full disclosure and I am just ensuring that there has 
been full disclosure.

HASSAN MALL: Well, as you know he has applied, made application for amnesty for various offences.  
Among them is the bombing of houses.

MR CURRIN: Would you just bear with me for a moment?

HASSAN MALL: ;	Certainly.

MR CURRIN: You personally participated in the physical assault?
W/

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is correct, I did.
NO FURTHER

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

MR CURRIN: .

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain as per your application page 156, 
the last paragraph - "the telephone method was used on him", exactly what does that entail?
W/

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it is an old fashioned telephone where you had the crank that you 
turned, there were two wires coming from the telephone, you took that and you connected it to the person 
to his feet or hand or whatever, it all depended on what you felt like on the particular day towards the 
activists, and then you turned the crank and you put electrical shocks through him.

UNKNOWN: Now in this incident, to which part of his body did you tie the wires?
W/

UNKNOWN: I cannot remember, I really cannot remember but we did use the instrument.

UNKNOWN: Why can't you remember?
W/

UNKNOWN: It is 10 years ago.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 147	W/

UNKNOWN: But you were present when these things were done?
W/

UNKNOWN: But that was not the only time that I was present, there were many other times in 
the same manner.

JUDGE WILSON: This was in fact one of the most common of the machinery used by the police 
for this shock treatment wasn't it?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: Can you recall how long was this execution done on him?
W/

UNKNOWN: Normally about ten seconds, five to ten seconds per shock, per shock treatment.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What exactly did you want from him?
W/

UNKNOWN: We questioned him to obtain information from him regarding the fellow persons 
who worked with them, to control whether the information that we had, which we thought was correct, we 
wanted to verify those and to get general information regarding the unrest situation in Mamelodi.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What was the ultimate objective?
W/

UNKNOWN: The purpose was to find people who were working with them, to arrest them or to 
eliminate them and to find out exactly where they were hiding from the Security
Police and the Defence Force at that stage, where firearms or weapons might have been concealed or 
hidden away, in the general state of emergency which was prevalent exactly where they were hiding.
	Where we could get hold of them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: The aspect of weapons seems to be something that you did not allude to earlier 
on.  You mentioned that he was involved in "brandstigting", intimidation, "petrolbom PRETORIA 
HEARING	AMNESTY/

JUDGE MGOEPE: 148	W/

UNKNOWN: aanvalle op polisiemanne se huise" and that is a distinct criminal character.
W/

UNKNOWN: I can only mention that Scheepers at that stage, I could say was the leader in 
Mamelodi.  The Defence Force looked for him for months, and they couldn't trace him and Captain van 
Jaarsveld requested us and there were many activities for which they were looking for him, but as I have 
stated to you my information was that it was only concerning schools' boycotts, arson, petrol bomb attacks, 
but while we interrogated him, we asked him whether he knew about any weapons which had been hidden 
which he knew about.

JUDGE MGOEPE: To the extent that you wanted information for the purpose of effecting some 
arrest, the impression I get is that this was a criminal investigation after all.  It was nothing else but a 
criminal investigation which was going on here, criminal investigations by yourselves?
W/

UNKNOWN: I don't clearly understand the question.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I asked you to tell us what the ultimate objective of your exercises were, and 
you mentioned also that you wanted information from him so that you could effect some arrests and I am 
saying to you therefore it would seem that you were busy with nothing else but a criminal investigation 
here for purposes of arrest and prosecution?
W/

UNKNOWN: At that stage it was so, we wished to arrest people and prosecute people who 
worked with Scheepers, that is correct, yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And I am saying to you the torture, the interrogation and the torture that 
accompanied it, was not any different to the torture and interrogation you would have done on somebody 
who had committed a robbery? It was 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

JUDGE MGOEPE: 148	W/

UNKNOWN: trying to extract information purely for criminal purposes, not politically?
W/

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairman, Scheepers was involved in petrol bomb attacks on policemen's 
houses, he was an activist in the townships, it was not just criminal affairs, criminal matters if I understand 
you correctly.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And you say that he made mention of firearms only during the interrogation?
W/

UNKNOWN: I can't remember whether he referred to firearms.  We asked him whether he knew 
about any firearms that had been hidden in Mamelodi, ANC, we referred to DLB's, we asked him, he didn't 
ask us, Your Honour.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well you don't remember whether you got any answer from him in that regard?
W/

UNKNOWN: I cannot remember, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: For all you know he might have said he didn't know anything about those 
things.
W/

UNKNOWN: That is quite possible.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you get any information out of him that eventually led to the arrest of 
anybody? 
W/

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I cannot remember today.  This all happened 10 years ago, I really 
cannot remember, it is possible, but I cannot remember.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You mentioned that some people were looking for him, I don't know whether 
you said SANDF and or the
police, I don't know, but your help was eventually called in.
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct, it was the Defence Force, the Defence Force was stationed in 
Mamelodi, they had an office there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Your group felt that they could help, they 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

JUDGE MGOEPE: 149	W/

UNKNOWN: could trace him and thereafter beat the information out of him?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And then take that information and then pass it over to the other branches of 
law enforcement agencies that had been looking for him?
W/