Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

H J P BOTHA: Whose decision it was and whatever motivated them that there would be no prosecution, that is something that Gen Steyn could testify about but I was told there was to be no prosecution.  The political situation at that stage, or the politicians at that stage, dictated the function because the negotiating process was their priority and it was accordingly the decision that only some of the people who had been identified within Vula should be arrested, others were not to be arrested at all.

MR WILLS: I realise that, we'll get on to that.

H J P BOTHA: It's exactly the same basis for the scam in relation to the prosecution that wouldn't materialise.

MR WILLS: You see, my understanding of how, what the role of the police is in relation to the political leaders is that the police take instructions from the political leaders of the day.  The political leaders, in your own evidence, have assessed the situation to the extent that this matter has to be co-ordinated in a very orchestrated manner and as such, de Beer was appointed in that line, is that not so?

H J P BOTHA: Whether the politicians decided that, I don't know, but the decision was made.

MR WILLS: What I'm trying to say, I'm sorry if my questions aren't clear, I'll try and be more clear.  What I'm trying to say is that it is clear and you concede this, that the political developments had reached such a stage that the issue that you were dealing with was an extremely sensitive issue.  We know it is, it nearly led to the break down of negotiations, it was so serious.  Do you concede that?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now as a result of this orders filtered down to you, to the extent that this has to be handled very sensitively.  Firstly you're told that. don't do any more arrests until the 16th, that is not complied with for reasons you've given.  Secondly you're told that Mr de Beer must head this investigation.  Now, I cannot believe your version that those two aspects, well particularly the de Beer version, was just a con made by some other force.  It was a clear instruction that fits into the political situation at the time.  I want your response.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with great respect to my learned friend, what is the question now?  I sat here listening and I really don't know what I would have responded had I known the facts.  I don't know what the question is.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Visser, I will rephrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you're making a statement rather than formulating a question.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Thank you.  It is a rather difficult one.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just get one thing straight?  Did this investigative unit of de Beer actually commence investigating?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it did commence?

H J P BOTHA: Yes and it was composed of a national team.

CHAIRPERSON: And they had commenced their work?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say this was a scam?

H J P BOTHA: What I mean is that de Beer and all the members of his investigating team were unaware of the fact that their work was ultimately to prove fruitless.

CHAIRPERSON: They were not aware of it?

H J P BOTHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so that is why you say that was a scam?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were very, very annoyed that all this effort in arresting people in a very serious situation was not going to result in any prosecution?

H J P BOTHA: I knew it, the others didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I'm sorry about that but I think that, please formulate your questions.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, I'll withdraw that question.  I'll just put something to you, Mr Botha.  I put it to you that that investigation was not a scam.  That that investigation was set up to handle a very delicate situation and that you took decisions, conscious decision, to ignore the instructions from your superiors and ignore your commitment to report developments to this investigation and you acted on your own in regard to your decision to eliminate.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, the reference to the word scam for the investigating team, I would like to repeat that Zen de Beer and his investigating team didn't know that their investigation would amount to nothing in the end and secondly I didn't need to report to Zen de Beer.  We were of an equal rank, he was in command of an investigating team.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I wonder if I could ask the witness to repeat.  My sound equipment temporarily malfunctioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Where do we start?  De Beer and his team did not know that their investigations were not to be, were not to amount to anything in the end.  You've got as far as that?

MR LAX: The witness was in fact saying that he was of equal rank to de Beer, he had no need to report to him.  Carry on from there Mr Botha.

MR WILLS: Sorry, if I can just take that point up.  Your affidavit says that it was decided to form a National Investigation team to work under the command of Zen de Beer.  Were you not even included in this?

H J P BOTHA: No, I wasn't.

MR WILLS: And were you not told to feed information in to this investigation team?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I fed information in but an investigation and intelligence gathering, those are two different things.  My function was different.

MR WILLS: What was your function in relation to this team?

H J P BOTHA: I gave them information and they actually did the physical investigation, they arrested people and processed documents, the gathering of intelligence for evidence purposes.

MR WILLS: Surely it would have been important for them to talk to Shabalala?

H J P BOTHA: At that stage they had Siphiwe Nyanda in their hands at that stage, and he gave them everything they wanted to know, everything.  They had Brazoo, Raymond Lalla gave them everything and so I could continue to name names.  The investigating team sat with the cream of the crop.  So it wasn't necessary for them to talk to the people who had given the information initially which had led to these arrests.

MR WILLS: Surely as I understand normal practice is in the way the Security Branch operated that...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was there such a thing as normal practice?

MR WILLS: Well a usual practice, thank you Mr Chairperson.  A usual practice of the Security Branch was to corroborate the information that they are receiving from detainees with their informers.

H J P BOTHA: In this case what happened was that they had all the people and all the information which came from the computers and stacks of documents so there was plenty, there was enough to verify by way of documentation and the people in detention.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that the normal practice is to corroborate information with informants?

H J P BOTHA: That was the normal practice.  This was an exception, it was an exceptional practice.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to stop you, but I think that for the last 20 minutes or so we are beating about the question that he did not disclose to them that two of the people here, Shabalala, have been in secret detention.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he thought that it was not relevant nor important to inform them about it.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The top leadership of Vula had been arrested, the police had got maximum information from them, they got documents from them and so on and this witness says that he didn't think that there was any need for him to tell them.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: About these two.  Now can you take it further, can you take it beyond that?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. I hope so.  Well I'm just going to put it to you, I put it to you Mr Botha, that the reason you didn't follow this normal procedure was because these two people were severely beaten and probably already on death's door so that you couldn't show them to anybody else.  Can you respond?