Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were on very good terms.  We had participated in the burial of two persons from his in-laws.  I contributed R4 400.  Those people, I contributed to their burials.  I did not hate them.  Those in-laws still reside there on my same street.  I do not hate anyone.

MR LOWIES: But don't you dislike him because he is a member of the IFP, according to you? - of Inkatha.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would not hate a person on those ground, I do not care about all that, I just like people who are honest.

MR LOWIES: Are you saying that he is dishonest?

ADV SIGODI: I don't think that was interpreted correctly.  He said ...(no English interpretation).

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that's what I said, people who live well.

ADV SIGODI: Human beings maybe more appropriate.

MR LOWIES: I'll retract the question, I understand there was a problem.
	Now Sir, is it not so that Dodudu was doing these dances with lots of other people, who could have called his name, not just Mtwana?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is true, but Mtwana was their teacher.  He is the one person who gave them instructions and everything that pertains to that dancing.

MR LOWIES: How far was he approximately away from you when you saw him?  I think it was the distance pointed out yesterday, Chair. - 15 metres, okay.
	After he called out the names of Dodudu and Morena, what happened to him, what did he do?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: These people were on their way to the hostel and when they broke my gate they said: "Kill the dogs".

MR LOWIES: No, I'm talking about Mtwana, only him.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He did not come to my house, he did not enter my premises and I did not see him attacking.

MR LOWIES: Now just describe the scene.  I mean at one moment he is calling these names, what happened to him, did he just vanish or didn't you look further or what was the situation?  Did he get into a Casspir?  That is what I want to know.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was no Casspir, they were walking on foot.

MR LOWIES: Okay, what happened to him, or didn't you notice anymore, did you go somewhere else?  That's what I want to know.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not the only person who heard these names being called.

CHAIRPERSON: What he is asking you is, after he had called the names Morena and Dodudu, what did he do, could you see what he did thereafter or didn't you notice?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: After that they were on their way to the hostel and as they broke my gate, it was at that time that they shouted: "Kill the dogs" and then the people entered my premises, broke my door and did whatever they had to do.  They didn't much time in my house.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Mr Zulu walk away?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know.

MR LOWIES: Now how long did you look at him, was it just briefly or did you stand there and stare at him for a while?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was no time really, it was fighting.

MR LOWIES: Now inside the house, the door where you were, that you used to push the person who assaulted you, how does it open, does it open from the bedroom to the lounge or does it open from the lounge to the bedroom, as I have indicated to you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Which door, my door?

MR LOWIES: The door that you, on your version, used to push the attacker away who was trying to hack you how does it open?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It opens into the bedroom.

MR LOWIES: So do I understand correctly, the attacker was standing there in the doorway and you pushed him with the door that was opening, that was actually closing from the bedroom towards the lounge, the sitting-room?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yesterday I said I had held the door with my right hand and when I closed it from inside I pushed it this way and opened it this way.  I knocked him down with the door and he fell onto the sofa.

MR LOWIES: How could you knock him down if he didn't go actually into the room, because the door does not open the other way?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would like us to go to my home now.

CHAIRPERSON: But doesn't the witness say that the door was half open?  It was not closed, it was half open.  He was behind the door which opens inside to the bedroom, so when this man tried to enter the bedroom he closed the door pushing him outside.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say, Chairman.  May I just ask a question regarding that?
	But did he actually enter into the bedroom or was he just standing here right by the door, which is how I understood your evidence.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He was trying to get into the bedroom because he wanted to hack me you see.  He had this axe and he wanted to axe me, to hack me with the axe and on a third attempt he knocked or hacked the door.  I can take you to my home now so that you can see the door.

MR LOWIES: Now how did it happen that the suitcase actually flew open?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You see he fell onto the suitcase.

MR LOWIES: But the suitcase was on top of the table.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The suitcase was on the floor and when he fell you see, he fell onto the sofa during which time the suitcase flicked open and glasses got broken and the items that had come from Victor were there,  Shoes belonging to Victor's, or Mxena's wife were there as well.

MR LOWIES: But I understood your evidence to be that he left the suitcase on the table.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: On the table?  No, there is nothing as   such.  He put it on the floor and it was open.

MR LOWIES: And what made him just go away after that?  I mean he tried to open the door and then he just left without trying to open the door further - sorry, he hacked at the door and then he just left without trying to open the door further, is that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He left, because you see I said he attempted three times and on the third occasion he hacked the door and somebody was calling out outside to say time has run out.  He took the clothing items belonging to the children.  Items which were lying on the sofa he took along.

MR LOWIES: And the other attackers didn't assist him at all, the other two chaps that came into the house with him?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They took things and they left, they did not help him.  He too wanted to take whatever he thought appropriate and he failed, because he even left the ones that he had brought along.

MR LOWIES: I want to put to you, Sir, that this scenario whereby he was trying into the room and you knocking him over with the door, is not true, it did not happen.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying if you have the truth or if you want the truth I can take you to the place so that you can witness this for yourself.

MR LOWIES: And you did not see as much as you are pretending to have seen, you are trying to put a greater role onto yourself than that you played on the specific day of the incident.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Lowies, I'm a bit puzzled.  He is not attributing any role to himself, he's talking about what he observed.  There's a very big difference between the two.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you that this did not happen and therefore you are attributing more to yourself than what happened.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You are the one asking me.  If you ask me, do you want me to keep quiet?  Because I have to tell you about the things I saw happening and tell you about what I did.

MR LOWIES: But why did you get on to - how did you get onto the roof of the garage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Are you through with this one now?

CHAIRPERSON: The witness has told us that he got onto the roof, and I think somewhere along the line he mentioned a ...(indistinct).  Now do you want to suggest to this witness that he didn't go on top of the garage?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Well because these issues have been canvassed, why don't you just put to him what your instructions are?