Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-26

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman let me ask that they should give a list of people who are present and those who are absent. I am now going to ask Lulamile to take an oath. Could you please rise?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: (Sworn duly states).

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you Mr Lulamile Peter to this Commission. We are therefore going to hand you over to Mr Ntsikelelo Sandi who is going to question you on behalf of this Commission.

MR SANDI: I must thank you Mr Peter and greet you all the same. Firstly, I would like to ascertain the following. Do you live in 236 Modise Street, Despatch?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes.

MR SANDI: You are now appearing before this Commission about your shooting in 1985.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, it is like that.

MR SANDI: Could you briefly explain how the situation was at Despatch on the day you were shot? What was actually happening in your locality and then you could continue therefore tell us exactly about how you were shot in 1985.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: In 1985 there were riots, we were young and we were playing at school, then there was a truck that came and it was loaded with . . .  with a . . . . and there were some people underneath, then whilst we were playing we just heard some people shooting at us.

MR SANDI: Could you please raise your voice so that everybody could hear.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Do you want me to start afresh?

MR SANDI: Just continue from where you left off. Don't start from the beginning.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Underneath the branches there were some whites hiding and they shot us on our way from school and that was in Forest Street.
 I then ran away trying to escape and went into a certain house where they hid me.

MR SANDI: Are there others who were shot by these very policemen were hiding under branches?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes. there is (inaudible) . . . . father and another one.

MR SANDI: Now, you say the people who shot at you were police?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, they were. What could have been the reason for these policemen to hide under branches and then come out when they see you and they shoot at you?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: It is because they thought that we were going to burn their truck, because we were a group and yet we were coming from school.

MR SANDI: Did you get any treatment from hospital after you were injured?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, I was sent to Livingstone Hospital. That is were I was given treatment.

MR SANDI: Were you arrested? Why were you arrested?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: They didn't state, they just took me from Livingstone Hospital in my uniform and they took me to jail.

MR SANDI: What was the accusation? Did the Court find you guilty.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, they found me guilty, but they did not explain what for.

MR SANDI: Did you perhaps have any lawyer?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, I had the lawyer by the name of Van Rijh.

MR SANDI: Do you still remember the name?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, the name is Van Rijh.

MR SANDI: Is that all you have to say to us?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: I was arrested from hospital and locked in the jail in Despatch and I was still in the nightwear and the following day I was taken to Church Street in Uitenhage and I was called by a white detective whose name I don't remember and he called me into an office and he wanted to take down a statement. I told him I did not have one, he clapped me and I fell and then the following day my parents organised a lawyer for me.

MR SANDI: When all these things happened, can you recall how old you were?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, I was 15 years old.

MR SANDI: Am I making a mistake to think that even the people you were playing with were round about that age?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, my friend was exactly 15 years old, but I can't tell how old the others were.

MR SANDI: What would be your request to this Commission, Mr Peter?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: My request is that I should get medical treatment because the operation I had gives trouble.

MR SANDI: Is that all?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Peter. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Again, the questions - Ms Pumela Gobodo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to have a full picture of what was happening on the day. You say the police van came driving in front of the school at the time you were going out of the school?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You were going out of school and then as you were going out these white policemen just came out of this truck.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, this reminds me of that event called "Trojan Horse" in Cape Town, which happened exactly the very same way in this very evil way it happened where you find that policemen entice children because they wanted to make the victims very young children - under the age of 15 and this makes me shudder.

UNKNOWN: Are there any other people who died amongst those who were with you?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, there were.

UNKNOWN: How many were there?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: There were about four, I think.

UNKNOWN: So, those policemen who did this like the "Trojan Horse" who killed four, who were they?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: They were the South African Police because they were dressed in a blue uniform like these police present here.

UNKNOWN: Were they white policemen?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, they were white and then one coloured policeman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before I hand over to Denzil Potgieter, I would like to know do you perhaps have the names of those people who died.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: I can't recall the three, but I know one of then was Tsolisi Nglale.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you slowly say the name once more?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Tsolisi Nglale is the name. The surname is Nglale.

CHAIRPERSON: So, is it the one who is going to give testimony No. 10.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: These other three you cannot recall the names.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Over to Denzil Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson. Lulamile, I agree with my colleague, Pumela, that it is quite incredible the similarity between this incident and an incident that happened in the Western Cape. Now, if I understand this correctly this was really a Municipal truck, it appeared to be a Municipal truck with a load of trees and some other things on the back?

MR GABODI: Yes, it is like that.

MR POTGIETER: And this was at a time when vehicles like that would be stopped in the area and often attacked?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Our street is next to our school. It is a street that the cars use.

MR POTGIETER: So, it would have been known at that stage if you sent a truck like that into that area, it is likely to be attacked?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, it is like that.

MR POTGIETER: And, the driver of the truck, when the truck was stopped, did he stop immediately? He didn't try to drive off?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: He stopped immediately and when he alighted from the truck he had a 9mm gun and he shot in the air.

MR POTGIETER: So it's as if he was trying to attract attention. He got out with the gun and started firing shots.

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Now, was this truck ever attacked, did anybody ever do anything to the truck?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Nothing was done to the truck.

MR POTGIETER: And if I understand it correctly, soon after the driver got out and fired shots, police who were hiding at the back, underneath the trees and ostensible load of the truck just got up and started firing shots?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: Yes, it is like that.

MR POTGIETER: Was there ever any charges laid against these police who were involved in this incident?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: I can't remember.

MR POTGIETER: But you have never been called to Court to give evidence against these police that were shooting?

LULAMILE BASIE PETER: I did go to Court.