Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect to my learned friend, Mr Strydom, from my cross-examination it would have been noted that I asked certain questions and I deliberately did not ask questions about Mr Mkhize, because of the answers that I was given.  With respect, this is not a matter for re-examination.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would submit that it is.  A certain amount of questions were asked about leadership and I am following up on the question about leadership and that is why I am asking that question.

CHAIRPERSON: We will allow the question, proceed.

MR STRYDOM: You just made reference to marches, when people went out to march, was that when the AmaButho came together or what?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, AmaButho again, was not raised at all in the cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think the important thing to note is that this is an enquiry.  The purpose of this is not to restrict the scope of the enquiry, we are here to get, to seek answers.  We are not here to restrict the process.
	If you want to follow up on these matters, you would be given the opportunity to do that so this question would be allowed.  Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: I have put the question about the AmaButho, can you just give an answer?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, I know AmaButho to be a large number of people who would be assembled.

MR STRYDOM: You were also asked about meetings, what I want to know about these meetings, when a meeting is called in the hostel, will each and every member, each and every resident in the hostel go to these meetings or just a portion of those people?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If there was a need, all the residents would attend the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: When will, if the alarm is sounded, how will the residents know that all of them are needed at this specific meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: When the alarm is sounded, it meant that people should go to the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: You made a reference during your cross-examination about Interpreters.  I just want to find out, can you speak English or Afrikaans?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.  I do not know either English or Afrikaans.

MR STRYDOM: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know whether Mkhize went along that night, did you hear anything afterwards when you discussed it with your co-accused in prison?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: From what I heard, yes, he did go on the attack.

MS PRETORIUS: In a matter like this where the AmaButho or the Zulu's go on attack, will he who is the leader of the AmaButho, lead the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is how it should have happened.

MS PRETORIUS: The meetings that were held at the hostel, were some of the meetings only attended by the senior men and some only by the youth, or did everybody attend all the meetings?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If the youth was attending specifically to youth issues, they would hold that meeting on their own, and the same would apply to the senior committee, unless if it was a general meeting, where everyone would attend.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: Just one question Mr Chairman.  In your cross-examination and in examination in chief, you do not place yourself at the Boipatong attack, you do not know anything about the date of the attack or details relating to the attack, facts of which Mr Nosenga is very certain.
	Are you still, can you still be so sure as to state that Mr Nosenga only joined the hostel after your arrest which means after the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am very much certain about that, I do not know him.

MS TANZER: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, I just want to understand your understanding of the Truth Commission process and particularly this amnesty process.
	What is it that you were concerned about at the time or let's put it another way, what is it that you didn't understand about the Truth Commission process when you filled out these forms?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was not explained to as to how it operates.  I was just informed that I have to lodge an application for amnesty pertaining to the Tserela incident.  That is what was informed to me.
	I was also told that I should divulge all the truth that I know.

MR LAX: Who told you that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was informed by my lawyer at the time of taking the statement.

MR LAX: What were you concerned about at that time?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was concerned because if you look at this amnesty thing, I saw an opportunity to tell the truth.

MR LAX: So you saw an opportunity to tell the truth, do I understand you correctly?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: Why were you concerned about telling the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I had already heard that we had a duty to come before the Commission to explain what happened when Tserela was attacked, and explain the reasons thereof.
	I therefore took up this opportunity to come forward to explain.

MR LAX: Yes, but your evidence was that you had a concern about the process.  I am trying to understand what that concern was.  What were you worried about or weren't you worried, have we all misunderstood you?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did explain that I was also concerned that I didn't have information as to how the procedure of the TRC was, but I just grabbed an opportunity to tell the truth.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer again, the answer that you have just given.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: My answer is the one thing that I was concerned about is that I didn't know how the TRC functioned in relation to the court for example, but I knew that I had an opportunity to come forward and tell the truth as it is.  That is that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, I think what the witness is saying that when he came here, he then only saw how the Commission works?
	Mr Buthelezi, you have told my colleague that you were concerned about the TRC because you didn't know how it works.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you now understand how it works?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become aware of that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I began to understand this when I came to listen to the hearings for the first time, and I realised that this is the place where the truth should be told.

CHAIRPERSON: The concerns that you mentioned to my colleague, do you still have those concerns?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.  Not at all.

MR LAX: Now, you say you didn't understand how the process works, but you did understand that you had an opportunity to tell the truth, is that right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell us the truth in all these documents?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did explain here that at the time of taking the statement, and processing or preparing the application, I did not have hope or trust or faith in the TRC.

MR LAX: But you have told us that your lawyer told you here is your opportunity to tell the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, he did say that.

MR LAX: Now, you said that Mkhize was present at this caucus where you discussed the decision to, you discussed the issue of what to do about the attacks on your people and you came to the unanimous conclusion that the best thing to do was to attack Boipatong, do I understand that correctly?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Mkhize has told us absolutely nothing about any caucus whatsoever, in any of his evidence.  Were you here yesterday when he gave evidence?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I don't know, he is the one who was rendering testimony here.