Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you know Dr Chetty?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was he a person who did his work properly as far as you are concerned?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I thought he was doing his work properly.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: As far as my knowledge is concerned.

MR VISSER: Were there other doctors that worked there, who are still there today that you can mention a name of?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes, there are the other doctors who are still there.

MR VISSER: Who is still there that used to practice there at the time when you were there in 1987?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Dr Govendor, T.G.R. Govendor.

MR VISSER: Yes, anyone else?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Dr L.R. Charles.

MR VISSER: Charles?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: So those two doctors are still in the government's employ at - do you know off-hand at which mortuaries they are stationed?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No, in fact they are in private practice, they are part-time Districts and they come to do the post-mortem  work.

MR VISSER: Fine.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Just on - with this in my mind, I have something, I cannot recall completely Mr Ismail, but there was a mortuary at Phoenix and a mortuary at Verulam and one closed down and it was amalgamated, what is the position?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: The one at Verulam closed down.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1987, where were you at?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: At Verulam.

CHAIRPERSON: At Verulam?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then that became ...

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: The staff from there moved to Phoenix, Phoenix had a mortuary but it was not open, so in fact the staff from Verulam went there.

CHAIRPERSON: So before the Phoenix mortuary opened, did the Verulam mortuary cover the same area as you are covering now?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

MR VISSER: Did you have any duties at the cemetery itself?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: All right.  On the off chance, can you remember at Charlottedale  cemetery, who may have been the person in charge at the cemetery.  Can you remember that person?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No sir.

MR VISSER: You cannot?  All right.  Now, you as a mortuary attendant, if a body came in and there was some indication of foul play which indicated that a post-mortem had to be held, and this body was laying there in its clothes, would you be the one to take the clothes off and prepare the body for the doctor to do the post-mortem examination?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: Who would do that?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: We had guys working there who used to do that.

MR VISSER: I see.  So it is somebody apart from yourself or the doctor who would take off the clothes?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you sometimes observe them taking off clothes of corpses that were in the mortuary?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In fact it was only removed whilst the doctor was there.

MR VISSER: All right.  But if the doctor was there, then you would also have been there?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Because you were the scribe inter alia?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: If a body that was completely decomposed came into the mortuary, how would the clothes be removed normally?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: They were cut off.

MR VISSER: And after the post-mortem examination was completed, what would then happen to those clothes, would it be put back onto the body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: What would happen to the clothes?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: We used to put that in plastic bags.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: And put a label on the bag indicating from which body that particular clothes were removed from.

MR VISSER: Yes, and that label, was that just paper or was it plastic that would not decompose or ...

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In Verulam we used to use paper.

MR VISSER: Paper?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: We used to push it in the packet.

MR VISSER: Yes.  But that of course would become destructed, what is the word?  That would basically become unreadable I would presume, after a while.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes, it did happen a few times.

MR LAX: Can I just check something?  These clothes that you put in a packet, did you keep them somewhere else or did you bury them with the body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: At the time when we were releasing bodies, they used to go with the body.

MR LAX: Okay.  So they would then be buried with the body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did it also, were there burners or a burner at the Verulam mortuary where  you would burn stuff that you wanted to burn?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: There wasn't?  So, clothes were never burnt, clothes that came off bodies, they were always if I understand you correctly, buried or supposed to be buried with the bodies?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes, in fact we handed it over to the undertaker, I don't know what they do with ...

MR VISSER: Yes.  Yes of course, I was being very fair to you by saying supposed to, because you have already told us you had nothing to do at the cemetery and what happened after the body left the mortuary.  I understand that.  I quite understand that.
	Do you agree with the proposition which I put while you were being examined by Ms Thabethe, that there is one page missing?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I have seen.

MR VISSER: You have noticed that?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: From the signed part of the post-mortem report?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: The typewritten portion?  Now, would you just allow me a moment, Chairperson?    I have no further questions, thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Hugo, do you have any questions?

MR HUGO: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel who I see sitting in the back, do you have any?

MR SAMUEL: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr Ismail, just the issue of the clothes being cut.  We have exhumed this body and the clothes were found in a bag in which the body was contained and it is clear to us that the clothes weren't cut.  Would you find that strange?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR WILLS: Why not?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: There were times that the clothes were not cut, especially in advanced decomposed bodies.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.  You have mentioned advanced decomposed, what do you mean by that?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Where we could not distinguish facial features and exactly - should I say, it wasn't clearly distinguishable, where it was very difficult to say whether it was a male or a female or ...

MS THABETHE: Okay.   I just want to find out, is there a difference between completely decomposed and advanced decomposition?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It may be a play on words, I cannot really tell you.

MS THABETHE: Maybe let me lead you, why I am trying to ask you this question, it is because in this body it was stated that it was completely decomposed.  Does this mean that the decomposition was advanced?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Would you say?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Just to emphasise one point.  Mr Visser, when he was, Adv Visser, when he was cross-examining you, it became clear that this body, this particular body was not X-rayed.  Do you know why it was not X-rayed or do you know why it was not referred to C-rays?