Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 2000-05-08

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, but I was still intending to continue to indicate what I had done further.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you can carry on, I am going to give you a chance to tell me that.  I just want to know, when you threw stones at the deceased, was it while the others, after coming from the hall and the others were attacking this house, is that the time you threw stones?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I threw stones by the time when the deceased started to attack us and then we retreated, we decided to fight him.'

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

JOHANNES MAKATU: I participated in the burning one of the cars which was in the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I also burnt the furniture which was in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Now there is nothing, now it is all.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: The deceased's wife, Rosinnah I think her name is, did you do anything to her?

JOHANNES MAKATU: No, I have done nothing to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her that day?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, she was there, I saw her.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her trying to escape?

JOHANNES MAKATU: No, she didn't try to escape, but she was taken out of the house pitifully and taken to the chief's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see when she tried to get out of the house, that people threw stones at her or did you not see?

JOHANNES MAKATU: No, no, they were removed from the hut and they were taken away from the crowd and they were led to the chief's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NDOU: That is all Honourable Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Makatu, let's start off with that meeting that you attended before you proceeded to the deceased's house.  Can you just repeat for us what was the decision that was taken at that meeting?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The decision taken was the one of asking the deceased to leave the village because he was no longer needed at Mavhunga's Village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Anything else?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The main aim was that only.

CHAIRPERSON: What would happen if he would refuse?

JOHANNES MAKATU: You mean refusing to vacate?   I hope by the way in which people were prepared to talk to the deceased, if he refused, of course, they were going to use all powers in them so that he can vacate the place.

CHAIRPERSON: Including violence?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I think if people are in a mob, their reasoning capacity is different, when others are negotiating, others may resort to violence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about what you think, I am talking about what was decided if Mr Mavhunga refused to accede to the request of leaving the area for whatever reason, what would those people do to him?  Was there such a decision or what?

JOHANNES MAKATU: There was no decision regarding if he refused to go, what will happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I am asking you, what did you think would happen?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I think if he was asked to leave and then he refused, I think the violence could happen.

CHAIRPERSON: The what?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The violence could have happened.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  So when you left the meeting, you knew that there was a possibility that violence can erupt from this whole procession?  Is that correct?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I was aware that violence could occur.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When you received at the deceased's house, did you or anyone there in the group, in fact ask or tell the deceased to leave the area?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, that person was there who asked him to leave because it was long that he was told and many attempts were made to the effect that he must leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who is the person who told the deceased to leave the area?

JOHANNES MAKATU: It is Abel Muhadi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where was the deceased at that stage when Abel asked him to leave?

JOHANNES MAKATU: On our arrival, the deceased was sitting in a lapa, seemingly he was eating food and then he proceeded and went to him and asked him to leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, and what was his response to that request to leave the village?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The deceased refused to leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did he forward any reason why he is refusing to leave the village?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I didn't hear anything about the reasons why he didn't want to leave the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What did you hear, did you hear him refusing?   Did you hear the deceased refusing to leave the village?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I agree that he was refusing to go, because several attempts were made to the effect that he must leave the village and he was always refusing.

MR VAN RENSBURG: We are not talking about other instances, we are talking about that specific day when you heard him.  Did you hear him refusing to leave when he was asked by the group, on that day when he was killed?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I heard that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what did he say?

JOHANNES MAKATU: He said he won't go.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is that all?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, that is all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did Abel or anyone in the group give a reason why they wanted him to leave?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Reasons were there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What reason die Abel or anyone ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not an answer to the question.  There may have been reasons, the question is was he told why the people of the village wanted him to leave on that day?  After the meeting it was decided they were going to go and tell him to leave, was he told why, then?

JOHANNES MAKATU: On that day he wasn't told.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you people just assume that he would have know, because he had been told every time previously?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, that is that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Do you think everyone in the group knew what the reasons were why he must leave the area?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I agree that everybody in that group was aware what was the reason for him to vacate the village.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And even you knew the reason why he must leave?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Give us the reason why you required him to leave?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The first reason is that he was suspected of practising witchcraft, the second reason is that he was against the Youth Congress of Mavhunga which was formed by then.  That is all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, let's go on to the, what actually happened after he then refused to leave.  Can you tell us when he said he wouldn't go, what happened then?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Immediately when he said he wouldn't go, people were shouting, saying that "we want you to go".  After that then the deceased was throwing stones and spears to the people and the people decided to fight back.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And that is when the violence erupted that you expected to happen either before you arrived there on the scene?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Could you please repeat the question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is that now when the violence erupted that you suspected, even before you arrived on the scene, is that the violence that you referred to that you suspected to be erupting soon?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  What was the name of this Youth Congress that you had at the time?

JOHANNES MAKATU: It was called Mavhunga Youth Congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And Mavhunga in this instance referred to the village where you lived, is that correct?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, it is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What makes you think that the deceased was against the forming of this Youth Congress?

JOHANNES MAKATU: It is because wherever there was a meeting held of that Congress, it was found that he often harassed people so that people must disperse.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you notice or witness such harassment yourself?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I witnessed it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Could you tell us about that, at which meeting did that happen?