Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, your honour, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Where was the prayer meeting held?

UNKNOWN: It was held next to my house - there was a hall.

JUDGE WILSON: Not at your house as counsel put to you - next door to your house in the church hall.

UNKNOWN: Yes it was on my plot, yes.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALENDI

MR MALENDI: Mr Du Randt, what was the purpose of your visit, you and your wife, to Pretoria?  What were you going to do in Pretoria?

UNKNOWN: We usually visit my daughter on Thursdays.  It's the only time we have to go and visit her there and I want to repeat it was near her birthday, it was near the 28th, 29th February, she was a leap year baby.

MR MALENDI: Is that then how you also tie up the date of the 24th?  Does the fact that ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: No, that date was mentioned when I made this statement at the police station.

MR MALENDI: You have just said that it was around the birthday?

UNKNOWN: You've asked me when do we usually go to my daughter.  Usually Thursdays or Wednesday evenings after the prayer meeting.

MR MALENDI: I asked you what were you going to do in Pretoria, you answered and then you mention that it was around your daughter's birthday.

UNKNOWN: Yes, more or less near her birthday, that is correct.

MR MALENDI: Before or after?

UNKNOWN: Before her birthday that we visited her, that is correct.

MR MALENDI: You understand that I'm referring to the day when you handed - when the parcel was given to Mr Derby-Lewis whereafter you then left for Pretoria?

UNKNOWN: Now I understand better.  This parcel was handed over after her birthday as far as I can remember.

MR MALENDI: When you said it was before her birthday what were you referring to?  When you said to me a few seconds ago it was before the birthday, what were you referring to?

UNKNOWN: You've asked me when I went to my daughter and I told you it was before her birthday, it was on the 25th, that is correct.  If I can understand you correctly, I visited her before her birthday not on her birthday.

MR MALENDI: Well, was that that same day on which you delivered the parcel to Mr Derby-Lewis?

UNKNOWN: No.  You've mentioned the 25th now is that correct?  You must give me an exact date and ask me was it after that exact date.

MR MALENDI: I cannot give you an exact date because there seems to be some confusion to a certain extent with regard to the dates.  What I was only asking you was - I thought all the time it was clear to you that I was talking about the day on which you delivered the parcel to Mr Derby-Lewis and then left for Pretoria to go and visit your daughter and then you answered me to say it was before the birthday.

UNKNOWN: That was wrong.  I did not deliver the parcel before her birthday.

MR MALENDI: I'll leave it there.  When you told us that the police, after they arrested you, in the course of the interrogation they said to you: "Mr Derby-Lewis says that you gave him the gun" and then you said "he's lying".

UNKNOWN: Could you repeat please?

MR MALENDI: You told us that the police, during the interrogation, they told you that Mr Derby-Lewis said that you gave him the gun or he got the gun to you and you said he's lying and that is why they went for him and fetched him to come and confront you with him.

UNKNOWN: That morning when they brought me there they told me that Mr Derby-Lewis had told them that I had handed the fire weapon to him and I said he was lying.

MR MALENDI: Well it seems he was telling the truth and it seems to me on your version you were in fact lying to the police.  You were the one who was lying to the police because on your version that very same day on which you gave the gun to Mr Derby-Lewis, your wife told you that there was a gun in there.

UNKNOWN: I did not lie.  I told you that I and my wife had taken the fire weapon to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis' wife and she handed the parcel over to him.

MR MALENDI: I see.  I must be wrong in that case.  You're right but if you interpret that way, yes, my question may be wrong but then did you tell the police then that "Well my wife did give the gun to him"?

UNKNOWN: Yes I told the police that, I told the police that my wife had given the parcel - to the police, I did not mention the fire weapon.  The parcel, the jersey, was handed over to Clive Derby-Lewis.

JUDGE WILSON: But you knew very well it wasn't a jersey, so you were lying to the police weren't you when you said a parcel...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: No I was not lying, I did not know there was a firearm in that parcel.

JUDGE WILSON: Your wife had told you so.

UNKNOWN: She told me when we were in the driveway.  I did not know there was a firearm in the parcel, I could not confirm that.

JUDGE WILSON: But you were told immediately after it had been handed over that there was a firearm there.  Didn't you, weren't you?

UNKNOWN: After we had handed over the parcel she told me that, but I had no evidence for that, I did not see the firearm.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't you believe your wife?

UNKNOWN: I believed my wife when she said that there was a firearm, but I didn't investigate any further, it wasn't within my interest.

JUDGE WILSON: Well why didn't you tell the police "I didn't hand it over, my wife told me she handed over the firearm"?  Why did you tell the police it was a jersey?

UNKNOWN: Because it was said to me it was a jersey which would be handed over.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that we must try and avoid playing around with words now.   You had become aware of the fact that that parcel that was delivered to your house was in fact a gun, you understand?  At the stage when the police are questioning you, at that stage you already knew that it was a gun?

UNKNOWN: Yes at that moment I knew and I understood that it was a firearm but at moment of delivery, I did not know it was a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is now whether you told the police, instead of telling the police "my wife handed a jersey to Derby-Lewis" you weren't telling the truth because you knew at that stage that what your wife in fact handed to Derby-Lewis was a firearm.  Anyway.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I told the truth, I told the police that it was a jersey which would be delivered to Mr Derby-Lewis and only after that did I find out that it was a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes anyway, look, carry on.

UNKNOWN: Mr Du Randt, you have stated under cross-examination by Mr Malendi that you are now certain that the date of the 10th is indeed the date on which this parcel was delivered to your wife.  You remember that evidence that you gave when you were cross-examined by Mr Malendi?

UNKNOWN: During this hearing?

UNKNOWN: Yes when you were cross-examined by Mr Malendi who is sitting on that side, you stated that you were now certain that the date on which this parcel was delivered to your wife was the 10th March and not the 24th February?

UNKNOWN: After I discovered the papers I found that out.

UNKNOWN: Yes and the reason why you are this certain is because that was the day on which the Mayor was elected and obviously you don't elect a Mayor every day so it is an important event.  The election of the Mayor is an important event - you would agree with me?

UNKNOWN: Yes it is a very important event - every council meeting would have been important and that is why I attended these meetings.

UNKNOWN: And the statement that you made was on the 21st April 1993 that you made before the police at Benoni Police Station - the statement that you were referred to by Mr Malendi, you made on the 21st April 1993 just over a month after you had attended that meeting where the Mayor was elected?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.