Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: To add, maybe you have to explain what you mean by child.  You mean a child, a young child who will be put over the back or you mean a young child or a child who can run to a shop to buy something?  I would say we, the African people or blacks, we normally get politicised from about twelve (12) years.  There is a child who can go to a shop, there is a child who can't walk and we can't send anywhere.  So there should be a difference.

MR PATEL: Let's put an end to this, Mr Hlongwane.  Let's assume for one moment that it was Mrs Tilly in the shop with the baby on her back.  What is your position then?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, let's talk about the things that happened, because there was not any child which was on the back of a woman in the shop.  So it's better if you differentiated the two cases.  The MamNkosi case and the case at the shop because as I've explained, MamNkosi I tried to shoot at her and I hit her below the eye and when she turned around I saw she was with her child, and I didn't shoot further.  But at the shop I didn't see any child, and I wasn't attacking any particular person, I was attacking all the people in the shop.  But in the case of MamNkosi, I was attacking MamNkosi alone.  So they should be differentiated.

MR PATEL: I think we'll move on.  I'll argue that at a later stage.  Let's look at your second incident.  In essence in your evidence-in-chief you say Mr Noah became frustrated, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Frustrated by what?

MR PATEL: Because we're looking at the second incident.  You couldn't get hold of Bhobholina.  You couldn't kill Bhobholina.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And out of that frustration he told you to go and kill Bhobholina's mother, correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, that is an act not associated with a political objective, but one where you are driven by sheer malice or frustration?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, probably you see the need or the cause.  I would say one Black Cat member to further explain or clarify was injured because of Bhobholina.  Therefore I was supposed to go and kill Bhobholina and since I couldn't find Bhobholina I took the report back to the person who sent me and the person said, "In order to get this person you better shoot the mother", and that's how it happened.

MR PATEL: Your evidence this morning is it was an act planned out of frustration.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he said, Mr Patel, was he became frustrated and then instructed him to kill the mother so that that would attract Bhobholina, who couldn't be found, to the funeral and then he would be attacked at the funeral.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, this applicant has just admitted, not five minutes ago, that it was an act where they were driven to do out of frustration, and I put it to him that it is not politically associated.

UNKNOWN: Mr Patel, shouldn't that be a point that you can take up in your legal argument?  Surely you can't get anything from Mr Hlongwane, but I'm sure you'll be able to get something when you address us on that issue.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Madam.  But before I can address the legal argument, certainly I must canvass the facts and that I have done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can continue.

UNKNOWN: You may proceed.

MR PATEL: And the plan was to take somebody's life in order to use them as bait for somebody else's life, am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was arranged by Noah that I should kill Bhobholina's mother in order to get Bhobholina himself.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Now, when you arrived at the house did you have a balaclava over your head or not?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Since I joined the hit squad I have never worn something like a balaclava.

MR PATEL: Well, let me tell you, Mr Hlongwane, that I'm going to put forward evidence of certain people who are going to testify as to what happened that day, and they're going to say that the persons that arrived, or at least two of them, were masked with balaclavas.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, there were other people who were wearing them, but not myself.  I said Mr Makunga - they said, "Since we are working around here, we will put on our balaclava", but not myself.  I wasn't wearing any balaclava and I took Bhobholina's mother to a kitchen.  I wasn't wearing anything.  I agree that there were some people wearing balaclavas, they are correct, but myself as Sadam, I was not wearing any.

MR PATEL: Yes.  The lady that's going to testify, her name is Miriam Mabel Shongwe, she is the daughter of the deceased, and she will say that two people entered wearing balaclavas.  You say to this Committee today that you were the only one to enter the house.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, even now I restate my word, I am setting my words.  It is true I get into the house.  I was alone.  I don't know where China was and how and when he threw the bomb, but I entered the house, I was not having a balaclava on.  Maybe you should give me time to explain.  Before I sent the other boys back I arrived with the boys together, I positioned them at the corners and then I went into the entrance, and I looked in.  I didn't see anything.  I went back into the house and China was standing by the door.  I don't remember whether it was a dining-room or not.  I got back into the house and then I told the lady that I'm looking for Bhobholina and I said, "I'm alone".  I ask her to search the house with me.  I as a commander, I entered the place without a balaclava on.  I don't know whether China entered the place or not when I was inside the kitchen, and this is what I said and this is what the truth is.

MR PATEL: How many people were in the house, apart from you when you entered?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I can't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Besides the people that you went with and yourself, how many people did you find in the house?  You've said that Bhobholina's mother was there.  Who else was in the house, if anybody, or how many other people were in the house?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was only one person.  Bhobholina's mother.  But after some time we heard there were people who were hiding in the house.  At the time when I was raiding the house I only find Bhobholina's mother.  But after the operation of the work, I was told that someone was injured by the M26 and I would say I personally only find one person at the time I was searching the house.

MR PATEL: Well, Mrs Shongwe will testify that there were quite a few of them in the house.  That the two people with balaclavas took them and made them all lie down in the bedroom on the floor and told them not to talk, and then one of the balaclava clad persons took the mother around to search for Bhobholina in the rest of the house.  Is that not a correct description?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I don't remember that.  I don't remember even during the trial, they said they saw me through the window.  I don't know that.  What I know is that I found the aunt in the house alone and I tried to search but I couldn't find anyone and I shot her alone, and then China threw the bomb and the others were injured.  I'm not saying they were not there, but I didn't see them because if I saw them I might have shot them, because we went there knowing that Bhobholina have killed a leader of the Black Cats, the first thing.  Secondly, there's a statement which I made, I wrote on the tenth (10th) of 1997, April.  This is the statement I went to give to my legal representative which reflect on Noah insisting and asking exactly what am I doing, what kind of work am I supposed to do in the place in Ermelo.  However, I would say that I accept that there were people because when I was in court it came out that there were people who got injured.  I'm not disagreeing or denying, but I didn't see them or I failed to see them when I was searching.