Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR MAPOMA: My name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.  I call the amnesty application of John Ithumaleng Dube, Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala, Clive Makhubu, Precious Wiseman Zungu.

MR KOOPEDI: My name is Brian Koopedi.   I appear on behalf of all four applicants before you this morning.

MR RICHARD: I am A Richard. I appear for the Dhlomo family.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson of ...(indistinct)

DR TSOTSI: Whitcliffe Tsotsi,  attorney Port Elizabeth.

ADV SANDI: Ntsikilelo Sandi from Amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now continue.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson I beg leave to call the first applicant in this matter, John Dube.

ADV SANDI: Your full names sir?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: (sworn states)

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.  Chairperson, I will request that the applicant be seated.  May I also mention that he elects to give his evidence in Zulu, and we would request the assistance of an interpreter.  May I then proceed Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you very much Chairperson, we will take that opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you may carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: As the Committee pleases.  	Mr Dube, where do you reside?

MR DUBE: I reside in Pretoria.

MR KOOPEDI: Are you employed?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Where are you employed?

MR DUBE: SANDF, I'm a captain there.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you appear with three others today, before this Honourable Committee, whereat you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Sicelo Dhlomo.

MR DUBE: Yes, that's true.

MR KOOPEDI: When did this incident occur?

MR DUBE: This occurred in 1988 January, if I am not mistaken.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when it happened, were you a member of a political organisation?

MR DUBE: Yes, I was a member of African National Congress as well as a member of MK at the time.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join the African National Congress and MK?

MR DUBE: I joined ANC in 1980 and I trained from 1980 doing various courses like general courses and I specialised also in other fields, in the military that is, especially I concentrated on politics.  That a person must not be merely a soldier but be a political soldier.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for the record is MK Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC?

MR DUBE: Yes, that's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now were you ever deployed by Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR DUBE: Yes, as I've already mentioned that after the completion of my training I was asked if I could be deployed in the country, South Africa that is, and I said yes I agree to that because it's one thing I was prepared to do that after the completion of my training I should be brought back to my country and fight the apartheid government of the time.  I came in, or I came back, but I will face a problem here in as far as time is concerned because these things happened long time ago so I may be making mistakes here and there in relation to time, as to when this happened exactly in what year or month for that matter.

MR KOOPEDI: I'm sure the Committee will understand that, but when this incident occurred, the killing in Sicelo, were you in the country, South Africa?

MR DUBE: As I've already mentioned earlier on, I was infiltrated back into the country, if my memory serves me well I think it was around 1985 or 1986.  The reason being I should have cells to train people and deploy them into the underground structures of MK.  I belonged to a certain ...(indistinct) of MK, called special ops at the time.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, what operations were you involved in when you were in the country?

MR DUBE: I have a problem with my earphone, as for now I did not understand what your question was.

MR KOOPEDI: The question was what operations were you involved in when you were in the country.

MR DUBE: As I've tried to explain earlier on that my duty first of all was to train, to open, establish themselves her in South Africa and train people.  Secondly, train those people effectively, and thirdly reconnoitre the targets, and the fourth one was to execute the missions that ...(indistinct).

MR KOOPEDI: Did you know personally, did you know Sicelo?

MR DUBE: Yes I did.

MR KOOPEDI: How did you know him?

MR DUBE: I knew Sicelo.  I had a cell at ...(indistinct) at Soweto, around Soweto I had cells, especially I'm referring now to the one at Emdeni in Soweto.  This cell consisted of the other three applicants, Clive that is, Sipho and Precious.  Sicelo was one of them.  When I recruited, he was recruited by one of the cell members that I was working close with, I'm referring to the applicants, my co-applicants, Sipho, Clive as well recommended Sicelo.  But because before you join a cell one should recommend you and one should sort of second the move or motion, and we should inspect things, or monitor very close things like does the person in question qualify to join the cell, yes or no.  Those will be the matters we will look close at.

MR KOOPEDI: Now after him being recruited, that is Sicelo, being recruited into that unit, did he obtain any training?  Military training that is.

MR DUBE: I'll have to explain or elaborate a bit on other aspects here.  First of all, each time I establish a cell I will train the members.  First I will have to get them understand exactly as to why we are in the struggle and what is it that we are fighting against.  Secondly I shall make them aware and know very well the fact that there is war in the country.  As soon as they are at rest I will concentrate on the political addressing and move on to train them on the use of weapons or firearms or guns.  The reason why I would do that will simply be for security reasons.
	I was from exile, or I was from outside the country, infiltrated back here in South Africa, so all the work that we're doing was underground work.  And as I said that the reason why I would train them on the use of firearms is to protect themselves, if need be.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Were you personally involved in the killing of Sicelo?

MR DUBE: Yes I was.

MR KOOPEDI: In what way?

MR DUBE: I was a commander.  As I've explained earlier on, Sicelo was a member of one of the cells that I was a commander of in Emdeni, Soweto that is.  It so happened, you see at the time I was not yet done with the training, military training.  I was still in the process of training them, that particular cell I'm referring to, because there were many other things that I was teaching them.  You will find that sometimes if I have to go I will leave some responsibility entirely on his shoulder, like leave some weapons, handgrenades, F1, for him to administer.

MR KOOPEDI: May I just interrupt you.  Perhaps what is important now is to find out in what way were you involved in Sicelo's killing.  Were you present when he was killed?  What was your involvement in the actual killing?  Perhaps before you can go into the reasoning behind that.

MR DUBE: I issued an order.

MR KOOPEDI: What were the reasons for issuing that order?  I presume that is the order that he should be killed, or he should die.

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Well what were the reasons for issuing such an order?