Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the fact of the matter is that his version is that they accompanied you to the tavern because you had insisted that they should do so because you had to collect some funds from somebody who owed you.

JOHN RADEBE: I did not insist, I requested them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Bosman, you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: At that time how many guns did you have with you?

JOHN RADEBE: Two guns.

ADV BOSMAN: Why were you carrying two guns?

JOHN RADEBE: 7.65 which is a Star had a problem with the firing pin.

ADV BOSMAN: Who issued these guns to you?

JOHN RADEBE: I got them from one supporter of the ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: And this rule that two of you had to go if you wanted to collect guns or ammunition, who had made that rule?

JOHN RADEBE: We formulated that rule together as members of the self defence unit.

ADV BOSMAN: But which unit formulated the rule?  You were apparently the member of a few units.

JOHN RADEBE: It applied to all units.

ADV BOSMAN: But who formulated the rule?

JOHN RADEBE: We, the members of the self defence unit, made that rule.

ADV BOSMAN: Did each and every unit make such a rule?

JOHN RADEBE: In every unit nobody would do the way he likes, so we used one uniform rule.

ADV BOSMAN: Did all the units have this rule?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there any rules in relation to guns, whether you were allowed to carry more than one gun?  Could you have as many guns as you wished to?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, my question was a bit double.  Could you have as many guns as you wished to have?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: I just find it strange that there is a rule in relation to the collection of ammunition and guns, but on the other hand you are allowed to have as many guns as you wish, that there were no rules in that regard.

JOHN RADEBE: As I have already said that operations were not the same.  I would not be able to shoot one, I would not shoot one person with a rifle, I would use a pistol, then I would have a pistol and a rifle at the same time, depending on the operation.  If it's, if necessary I would carry a grenade in addition.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright, I don't quite understand but I won't pursue that any further.  Mkhwanazi also said that your intention was to question the two girls, that was how they understood it.  And you told us that you had decided to shoot them almost from the start, when you said, after you'd seen them.  What is the correct version?

JOHN RADEBE: There was nothing which Mkhwanazi would do without my instruction.

ADV BOSMAN: But did you not tell Mkhwanazi that you were going to question them?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I did not.

ADV BOSMAN: So is he giving us the wrong information?

JOHN RADEBE: I said that we were going to Zone 12 to our office, where we would ask them questions, then after shoot them.  But our main objective was not to interrogate them on  that day.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mkhwanazi knew that?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now why is he telling us a different version now?

JOHN RADEBE: I believe it's not different from my version.

ADV BOSMAN: But it's not the same.

JOHN RADEBE: I mentioned that we were taking them to the office to ask them questions, then thereafter shoot them.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know that Mkhwanazi knew Hapile, that he lived near her?

JOHN RADEBE: Please repeat the question.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know that Mkhwanazi knew the deceased, Hapile?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So why did you ask her whether you should her?  Why did you ask him whether you should shoot her?

JOHN RADEBE: I was asking not that whether I should shoot her or not.  I was asking him in regard to the place where she should be shot, as to whether is it the right place for her to be shot.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you ask him that question?

JOHN RADEBE: ...(not translated)

ADV BOSMAN: There's no translation coming through.

JOHN RADEBE: Zone 8 is a quiet place.  It was not infested with violence, that is why I would not just shoot, that is why I had to verify with our comrades as to whether should we take them further or should I shoot them at that place.

ADV BOSMAN: I still don't understand.  You say Zone 8 is a quiet place.  It was not infested with violence, therefore you had to ask the comrades.  Now why did you have to ask them, if you knew that it was a quiet place?

JOHN RADEBE: In my unit there were people who were able to survey the place as to whether should we continue with the operation or not, so on that day I sought his advice as to whether is it the right place to execute the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Ms Bosman?  That is not the question that was put by Ms Bosman to you.  Ms Bosman wants to know why you asked Mr Mkhwanazi whether to shoot the ladies or not.  Now your response should be in relation to whether you did say that, or you didn't.  Did you ask Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether the ladies should be shot or not.  Not about the place where they should be shot at, but about whether they should be shot at all.  Do you understand the distinction between the two?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you ask him that?  The question does not want you to address facts about the locality of where they were to be shot.  They want you to explain why you asked that question about whether they should be shot at all?

JOHN RADEBE: It is because Abraham has knowledge in the surveillance because I would not make a decision on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: What surveillance are you talking about?  I do not understand in what relation Abraham's surveillance impinges on what you are saying.

JOHN RADEBE: The reason for me to ask as to whether should I shoot them there or somewhere else, it is not because I sought  his instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you or did you not say to Abraham, should I shoot at these ladies?  Not about should I shoot at these ladies here.

JOHN RADEBE: I asked him as to whether should I shoot or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why did you have to ask him?  You were the second in charge.  You were the one who was given orders.  Do you see the contradiction in terms?  You are asking your subordinate about whether you as a commander should do something or not.

JOHN RADEBE: As I've already explained that I did not seek his instruction or order.  My problem was as to whether that place was conducive for that operation or not, because it was in the tavern and people would run away.  As many things used to happen that people think that it was Inkatha which was attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe you are taking us nowhere with the way in which you are responding to questions.  You know the question that you asked Mr Mkhwanazi did not seek to establish whether the place was safe or not, that is quite clear.  You asked the question, and you agree that you did ask that question.  You surely cannot want to have us believe that you wanted to establish facts about the place, when your question clearly sought to seek his guidance about whether you can shoot or not.

JOHN RADEBE: I asked Abraham that way in regard to as to whether the place was conducive or not for that operation.  I did not have a problem of shooting them there.

CHAIRPERSON: We do not comprehend your response.  We, however, will not belabour the point.  You may proceed Ms Bosman.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  You also said in your evidence that the whole community wanted them, the two, the girls.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Now is Zone 8 part of the community?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So why would the girls come to a tavern in the community which wanted them, if they were spied for Inkatha? I don't understand that.  Can you suggest anything?