Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

MR TSOMELA: No Sir.  As I'm saying Sir, I was not dealing with the investigation as such and the arrestees, that was not my responsibility to arrange the place of retainment as such but the investigator, according to his crime intelligence.

ADV MEMANI: You see I'll tell you the impression that I've got and why I'm putting this to you.  The impression that I got is that in instances with security branch as security branch alone were interested in matters, they arrested people and they took them to Fountains and from there they would take them to prison. 	And on this occasion people were taken from Botshabelo Township into your offices, they were not taken into your cells and they were interrogated there and then taken to Grootvlei.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a prison, is it?

ADV MEMANI: Grootvlei is a prison, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So there would be records of their admission at Grootvlei, of the injuries they suffered?

ADV MEMANI: If that was permitted, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: They were taken when to Grootvlei, the same day?

ADV MEMANI: It is not clear from the instructions Chairperson.
	Don't you remember that incident?

MR TSOMELA: Well I was not involved in that proceeding Sir and I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: But surely the detention of people at about 4 and an interrogation of people and later conveyance to Grootvlei would have taken quite some time, long enough for you to have come on duty at about 7 or 7.30?

CHAIRPERSON: There's no evidence to that effect, is there?  Because the evidence was simply they were sprayed with water and locked up to recover from their injuries, it doesn't say how long.

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases, I'll leave the matter there.  Those are the questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Just one issue, Mr Chairman.
	Commissioner, the sub-unit of the security branch about which you spoke just a little earlier, can you remember who those people were in 1986, if you can't please say so.

MR TSOMELA: Ja, the man in charge was the Warrant Officer Paul van der Berg.

UNKNOWN: Second in charge, can you remember?

MR TSOMELA: Warrant Officer Mbanjani came sporadically but he was not actually permanent as far as my understanding but - well I don't know their entire internal arrangements, but he used to come to Botshabelo to assist Warrant Officer van der Berg.

UNKNOWN: There is reference here to Sergeant Smith in the application of Mr Ngo, can you tell us something about Sergeant Smith?

MR TSOMELA: Sergeant Smith was for a very short while in Botshabelo.  I think he passed away in a car accident within a week or two after his landing in Botshabelo.

UNKNOWN: Yes, so he could have been there only for a about a week or two.

MR TSOMELA: That's right yes.

UNKNOWN: Is it at all possible to find a record somewhere where one could establish the date of Mr Smith, the late Mr Smith, Sergeant Smith's death?  If you could perhaps help us with an indication or a suggestion from your side?

MR TSOMELA: Yes I think from the head of the security branch from Bloemfontein he might still have his file, I hope.

UNKNOWN: Lastly, was Constable Lesale, is that a person that you know personally, Lesale - L-e-s-a-l-e?  Was he a member of that sub-unit of the security branch?

MR TSOMELA: I won't deny that Chairperson, but I just cannot recall him you know.

UNKNOWN: You can't recall him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this a separate unit responsible to Bloemfontein, who merely were stationed at your police station?

MR TSOMELA: It was a sub-branch emanating from the main branch in Bloemfontein Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they told what they should do by Bloemfontein.

MR TSOMELA: That is quite true they were reporting to Bloemfontein main head office.

CHAIRPERSON: They weren't reporting to you?

MR TSOMELA: No Sir.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps I should just place this on record lastly Commissioner.  You don't deny that the incident took place?

MR TSOMELA: That is true Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: It's just that you say that you can't particularly remember this particular incident.

MR TSOMELA: That is true Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you go further than that don't you, you say you did not participate in this incident in any way.

MR TSOMELA: That is true Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: We'll leave it for argument Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not going to suggest that a Station Commander would not recollect people being beaten while naked in his police station at 4 in the morning and that he participated.

UNKNOWN: No, I'm suggesting precisely the opposite Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman may I ask something which I forgot to put to the witness?
	Mr Tsomela do you remember a Sergeant Coetzee who worked at your police station?

MR TSOMELA: Coetzee?

ADV MEMANI: I was told Kotze.

MR TSOMELA: Kotze?  A Sergeant Kotze?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

MR TSOMELA: Yes there was a Kotze at - of which I know, who was attached to the security branch at Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: And he used to drive a Datsun 4x4 Van or Bakkie?

MR TSOMELA: Ja, ja maybe, but we had a lot of 4x4's in Botshabelo because of the unpassable area naturally in Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted to the chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I would like you to - not at this
stage, to keep in mind the application and when you address us kindly tell us where this incident fits in on the application and especially as far as the pre-trial conference is concerned, as one of the items for which Mr Ngo is asking amnesty.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: This appears in his application at page 31 doesn't it
"Acts of offence of torturing comrades at
		Botshabelo".

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Chairperson, except that you know, at this stage it seems that it would be more appropriate for Mr Visser to give the references because he is leading in chief.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm only saying that there was a 14TH paragraph, annexure annexed, and the pre-trial conference refers to those - oh, it's 2.14 thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman the next ...[intervention]

MR TSOMELA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman just before we proceed, I have been given instructions that some of my clients know some of the persons who were arrested there and assaulted at Botshabelo Police Station on this specific occasion on which we are hearing evidence.
	It is also my instruction that during the following - this coming weekend we will attempt to get hold of those people and if they become available it will in order to assist the police - the Commissioner, to offer this evidence.  This is being done as a result of a question from Judge Ngoepe, whether any of the persons have consulted me.  That is merely just information.

CHAIRPERSON: Their names appear on the application some of them.  They have been available for years, why do they suddenly think they're going to appear at this stage?  If you look at page 35 of the application, he says
"Some of the comrades I can still remember who were beaten by me and the members of the security branch in the process of their arrest are Jaluka, Mokoke, Makushang Kutabong, Molashawani Molakani.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, to assist Mr Stander, the problem doesn't lie with Mr Stander but to the fact that the Investigative Unit did not chase these people up and did not did not give them notices. That is why they were not before - the people who came before you or became Mr Stander's clients, were mostly people the TRC had brought to him.