Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Shall we get the record straight, it was not AK47 cartridges, it was one cartridge.

MR VAN WYK: At least one round - cartridge.  Do you have knowledge about that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I know nothing about that.

MR VAN WYK: Do you have any knowledge of the people that testified that they saw some of the ANC security personnel or guards picking up AK47 cartridges on the roof whilst the Policemen was there in their presence, have you any knowledge of that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Chairperson and members of the Committee, I think I did specify my evidence which if that I was at the basement and whatever was found somewhere else is something that I have no knowledge of.

UNKNOWN: Mr Simelane, could you please just be brief when you answer questions.  If they need any explanation, they will specifically request it.  Could you please just answer yes or no.

MR VAN WYK: Have you heard from any of your colleagues at Lancet Hall about this AK47 in Lancet Hall, or the cartridges that were on the parapet?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Nobody told me that.

MR VAN WYK: During your - the time that you were on duty at the garage, where you and Vusi the only two ANC members that were in the garage that morning?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct.

MR VAN WYK: The firearm that Vusi had, do you know whether it was his personal firearm, or whether he had been issued it by the ANC?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I think it was his personal firearm.

MR VAN WYK: Now you testified that you were at the bottom, at the garage and you heard shots in the street, do I understand you correctly that you, Vusi then approached the gate, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: When the shots started ringing, we were already at the gate or next to the gate.

MR VAN WYK: You say next to the gate, approximately how far would that be then from the gate?  Could you indicate here sitting please.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: It could have been a metre of two from the gate.

MR VAN WYK: Did you then at that stage see the marchers approaching the gate whilst you were standing there at the gate, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: There were shots that rang and they stopped for quite a while.  Thereafter we saw the marchers when we had come to open the gate.

MR VAN WYK: Could you indicate to the Committee how many marchers were there that you saw that wanted to open the gate?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: It was a group of people.

MR VAN WYK: Could you give us an indication, approximately how large was this group, ten people, five people, a hundred people?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I would not be able to give you the number that you need, as I've already pointed out it was a group, there were not five, there were not hundred either, but it was quite a large group.

MR VAN WYK: Let's clarify one point, do you agree that you did not see any firearms with them, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is true.

MR VAN WYK: Now, this person or persons that tried to open the gate, let's clarify it, how many people did you see were trying to open this gate, was it one person or more than one?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: It was a group and a part of the group tried to push to gate open.  The others were pushing the other gate and the rest were pushing to other one, trying to push it open.

MR VAN WYK: Did you then speak to them?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: No, I never talked to them.

MR VAN WYK: Why did you not order them to leave the property alone, or to get away from the gate, because you were armed at that stage?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: In a war situation when your enemy does something, you don't reprimand your enemy.  It was a war situation, these people were surging forward, they were in a warpath and there was absolutely no way I could to them or try to communicate with them.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand you correctly, you don't reprimand you repel them, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: If people are attacking you, there is no way you can repel them by talking to them, they will do whatever they want to do.  So it was a war situation, they were doing what they deemed was right, and I did what I deemed fit.

MR VAN WYK: What made you think they were attacking you, and not forcing the gate open?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: As I've already explained, that I had prior knowledge to the fact that the offices of the African National Congress were going to be attacked, and the way that they opened the gate, it indicated to me what they wanted to do, they didn't come to just converse with me.

MR VAN WYK: This information that you had, did you convey it to your seniors?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: My seniors are the ones who conveyed it to me.

MR VAN WYK: Do I then understand you correctly, whilst they were trying to open this gate and force it, that is when you fired a shot, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I left them for a while until such time that I realised that they were actually opening the gate, that's when I started shooting.

MR VAN WYK: How long did the shooting take?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I shot only once, so I don't know how long that lasts.

MR VAN WYK: At that stage the gate was full of people?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct.

MR VAN WYK: You fired the shot directly into the crowd, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: According to my recollection, I was shooting my rifle facing downwards towards the gate, but according to the ballistic evidence, it indicates otherwise.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Simelane, could you please just forget about the ballistic evidence, just tell us what you did and what you saw.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: So can you explain to the Committee where did you aim when you fired the shot?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I think my gun was on the hip level and I pointed the gun towards the feet of the people who were standing at the gate or in front of the gate and trying to push it.

MR VAN WYK: Was there any possibility that you could have missed the crowd in front of you?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Could you repeat the question, it's not clear.

MR VAN WYK: The way that you fired that shot, is there any possibility that you could have missed the crowd, and not injure or kill anybody?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I wouldn't know what happened after I had shot.

MR VAN WYK: Sir, you are a few metres from this crowd trying to open the gate, you're firing a shot directly in their direction.  Now, my question is, I want to know from you if you can assist the Committee, was there any possibility that you could have totally missed all these people in front of you, and not injure or kill any one of them?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: When you're handling a firearm anything can happen.  You cannot pinpoint as to what happened or did not happen, especially if you have no clarity, like I have no clarity, but there are many possibilities when you're handling a firearm, and the possibility is 99% out of 100 that there were people or a person injured or killed when I fired.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Sir, in other words, after firing the shot, you realised that the way you handled the arm when you fired the shot, people must have been hit by your shot, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Your question is, did he realise when he fired, or are you asking him does he realise now?

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: At that time it never occurred to me because I did not see any particular person falling or being injured.

MR VAN WYK: Is your evidence therefore that at that time you did not know that anybody had been hit, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is true.

MR VAN WYK: Is your evidence also that at that time you did not think that anybody was injured?