Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Are you Joni Tsili?

MR TSILI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Jacob Nombiba?  Who are you Ma'am?

MR TSILI: She is my daughter, she was present at the time when her mother was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she going to testify?

MR TSILI: Yes because she was there.

CHAIRPERSON: What is her name?

MR TSILI: Her name is Nomangesi Tsili.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you and we would ask Rev Xundu to help you take an oath.  I will start with you Mr Joni Tsili, please stand up.

JONI TSILI: (sworn states)

NOMANGESI TSILI: (sworn states)

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: We will ask Reverend Xundu to lead them questions on behalf of the Commission.

REV XUNDU: I don't know whether Nomangesi is going to start and tell us about the situation in Grahamstown so that we can have a clear picture of what was happening in Grahamstown.   Please Nomangesi tell us briefly, give us a clear picture of what was happening in Grahamstown.

MS TSILI: At the time there were school boycotts.  There are schools in our streets, Andrew  Moyake and Natalenyawusa High School.  On this particular day all the people came from Josa to join the boycott. Students would not wear their uniforms, it was about nine or ten on that day.  We were going to the shop, I was going to the shop together with my mother, we watched students as they were toyi-toying, singing around the school.  We were passing a crowd.  My mother was disturbed by this because her son was a comrade and he was a member of this crowd.

REV XUNDU: Were you a student?

MS TSILI: Yes I was doing standard one at the time, I was 10 years old.

REV XUNDU: Your mother was she a member of a political organisation?

MS TSILI: No.

REV XUNDU: In other words she was coming from the shop?

MS TSILI: We were on our way to the shop at that time.

REV XUNDU: What is important is at that time people were struggling, they did not want to accept that policy of the government at that time.

MS TSILI: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Your mother was just passing by?

MS TSILI: Yes we were just going to the shop.

REV XUNDU: According to your view was it an incident that your mother got shot?

MS TSILI: When we came back from the shop we saw police vans.  We decided to go home.  The police came out of their vans, together with dogs, some of them went inside the school beating the students.  There were residents outside who were watching this.  Students couldn't go out because the gates were locked, we ran away because everybody was being beaten up.

REV XUNDU: You said that police were beating Black people?

MS TSILI: Yes they were beating people all over in the street.

REV XUNDU: There was no law governing at that time.

MS TSILI: We went in the first yard but the owner of that house chased us away.  We went to another yard but the gate was locked, we couldn't open it.  My mother tried to let me in that yard but she couldn't go in.  There was a small hole.  It was the last time I saw her.  I came in that house, there were many students, some were injured.

REV XUNDU: According to your view your mother got shot at that time?

MS TSILI: At about five minutes when I was inside that house I heard from those who came in that house saying that my mother was shot outside.

REV XUNDU: In your statement you mentioned that the police who shot your mother was Tungata, did you see him or did you hear this?

MS TSILI: I heard this from people.  My father used to go to court, because I was still young I couldn't understand what was going on.

REV XUNDU: The name of Tungata was mentioned in court?

MS TSILI: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Did he agree?  Did he agree that he was the one who shot your wife?

MR TSILI: Yes he did.

REV XUNDU: After the court case were you compensated by the government due to this?

MR TSILI: No we were not compensated but they told me that my lawyer was defeated by the State's attorney.  I was supposed to pay 800, I asked them what for.  They told me that my lawyer was defeated by the State attorney.  I told them I'm not going to pay the money.  They said that I must not say that I am not going to pay the money, but I must say I don't have it.  I told them that I'm not going to pay the money.  If you want to shoot me, shoot me so that I can join my wife. They told me I have to pay the 800

REV XUNDU: Who told you this?

MR TSILI: The police in the police station told me.  The police station in New City.

REV XUNDU: Do you know the name of the policeman who told you this?

MR TSILI: No I don't know his name.  I told them I'm not going to pay the 800.

REV XUNDU: You buried your wife?

MR TSILI: Yes, but the police were all over.  They were in my house.  They wanted to shoot the people who attended the funeral.  I went to the police telling them they must leave my house.

REV XUNDU: You mean that this funeral was not dignified?

MR TSILI: Yes they told me to bury my wife on a Wednesday.  I told them that I'm not going to do that because my family was all over, some of them were in Port Elizabeth, but we managed to bury my wife on Saturday.

REV XUNDU: Was she working?

MR TSILI: No, she was not working, she was selling veg in the township.

REV XUNDU: But she was supporting the family by selling veg?

MR TSILI: Yes.

REV XUNDU: What would you like the Commission to do for you?

MR TSILI: I don't know what to say but the Commission will see what to do for me because my child was only 10 years old at that time.  Others at least were grown up, but I tried to educate them.

REV XUNDU: Listen Sir you will have to tell us what you would like the Commission to do.  Just tell us your request so that we can see what we can do so that we can forward your request to the President.

MR TSILI: My wife was supporting me, we were not suffering at that time, now I am alone and I cannot support my family.

REV XUNDU: Do you receive a pension?

MR TSILI: Yes I do.

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

REV XUNDU: Before my colleagues ask questions, let me continue with Mr Nombiba, what is your clan name Sir?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I am Dhlamini.

REV XUNDU: Mr Zizi can you please give us a picture of what happened when Boyboy was shot?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: It was in 1980 when this incident happened.  It was a funeral that day, Mrs Tsili's funeral.  It was on Saturday in 1980.  People went to the funeral and these boys after the funeral went home, and thereafter late afternoon that day the hippo were all over the township.  I sent my boy to the shop at that time to go and buy paraffin.  After a while he did not come back.  I heard seven shots being fired.  I was not happy, I was restless because my boy was not coming back.  I went out looking for him.  While I was still doing that I saw one boy coming in asking where Boyboy was staying.  I said he was staying here.  He told me that he was shot on the corner of Q Street.  We went there together with my wife.  We found him lying down.  He was not dead at that time.  We tried to find a vehicle to take him to the hospital.  We managed to get a car.

REV XUNDU: Was Boyboy a student at the time?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Was he in a political organisation?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I am not sure because at that time the children did not tell us everything, they would deny being a member, although they were members.

REV XUNDU: Was Mrs Tsili a member of a political organisation?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I don't know, but all the boys went to attend her funeral.

REV XUNDU: You said that it was a political funeral in Grahamstown, do you agree that Mrs Tsili was buried and her funeral was organised by the activists?

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: I don't know but the boys went to attend the funeral.  I don't know whether they were activists or what.  When I was asking my son he didn't tell me anything.

REV XUNDU: Were there any regulations made to the funeral or were there any police present?