Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: But then, how many would it make then?  The four of you and how many others in all?  How many would have been there who at the killing of Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka, were to your knowledge accepting the concept of elimination at this Branch?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Another person, one more.

MR PHOSA: Whom do you mean?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Mr Raath.

MR PHOSA: Who was involved in the Kondile matter as well?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Yes, now apart from assumptions you did not know for a fact the attitude of the rest of the Security Police in the Eastern Province as at the killing of these two gentlemen?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for a minute.  Who was the second in command in the Eastern Province in the Security Police?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: During these years, Colonel Snyman.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Snyman, and he was on what we have heard never told about these things, is that so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Was he forgotten?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: We did not mention him in these two cases, or we did not discuss these two cases with him.

MR PHOSA: But I asked you a simple question, was he forgotten yes or no, by you when you were planning these things?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, he was not forgotten.

MR PHOSA: He just wouldn't fit well into the picture?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.  We did not involve him.

MR PHOSA: That (indistinct) that one cannot just be unfair simply because you are in this situation and say all the Security Police in the Eastern Cape accepted elimination, it would be unfair of us to deduce this from what you said, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Consequently, Nieuwoudt was approached because he qualified amongst those who would have no hesitation to destroy human lives?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I wouldn't say that.

MR PHOSA: What would you say?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Nieuwoudt was involved because I trusted him.

MR PHOSA: This is not time for beating about the bush, sir.  You knew by trusting, you knew that he would do what you wanted him to do, destroy human lives?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Your Honour.  He was given an option, I told him what we were planning.  He had the means to assist us in the abduction and because I trusted him, I felt free to talk to him about this.

MR PHOSA: You trusted him to remain silent about the concept of destroying human beings, young people?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: As sorry as I am about it Your Honour, I did that.

MR PHOSA: You chose him because of the trust that he is one of those people you could rely upon, not to flinch when you talk about death?  Yes sir, that is so.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I wouldn't put it as brutally as that.  I did believe that he would do it.

MR PHOSA: It came across to me, I didn't listen to you as I did believe that he would do it, did you say that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Do what?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: To go with us and to carry out the elimination.

MR PHOSA: Why did you believe, sorry before that, my apologies, were you still in your normal human senses, did you feel yourself still a human being in those days?  Did you regard yourself as being normal in all regards?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Did you still consider that death was a morally incorrect thing to be done by others on others, others to kill, was immoral, did you consider that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, did you think that Mr Nieuwoudt had no problem about killing people in the circumstances given, would have no problem?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believed that he would do so and I was convinced that he would do so and that he believed what I believed.

MR PHOSA: Did you have a reason for believing that Mr Nieuwoudt would do that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I cannot think of extraordinary reasons for this.

MR PHOSA: Everything is extraordinary, I am not asking you about extraordinary anything.  Did you have a reason, extraordinary or otherwise, for believing that Mr Nieuwoudt for one, would do it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot think now of a specific thing after 15 years, but the fact was that I approached him and that he agreed.

MR PHOSA: After 15 years, you know that you approached him because you believed that he would do it, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Could you please repeat that question?

MR PHOSA: Even though it is 15 years later, you do know that you singled him out because you believed that he would do it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: So, the only problem we have now after this 15 years is remembering why you believed so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Right, I am going to leave this question for a while and give you time to think about it.  Even if I haven't raised it yet specifically, when you remember just tell us otherwise I am going to come back and ask you precisely why he did that, think about it.
	Let's step on to the next point.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can I ask him something now before we go off this point?  For how long had you and Mr Nieuwoudt worked together, it was a number of years wasn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.  From the time that Mr Nieuwoudt joined the Security Branch as far as I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: 1975?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: You say you worked closely with Mr Nieuwoudt for many years, did I hear you correctly?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Did that develop into a very intimate relationship?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: One could state it to have been such, yes.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that you were virtually bosom friends?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I could say that we were bosom friends.

ADV SANDI: And trusted each other?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Just remind me when it is that you came to the Eastern Cape in the Security Police?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: If I remember correctly, Your Honour, it was 1964 or 1965 Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: And when did Mr Nieuwoudt come here to the same Branch?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The Chairman mentioned the date, I can't remember exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: According to his application it is 1975.

MR PHOSA: Right.  Now, please just correct me.  When I was involved, and I am not going to try and give evidence, but I just want to give a picture, when I was involved in doing political cases in the Eastern Cape, (indistinct), of course you do know that I was involved, don't you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, there was a general fear of you and Mr Nieuwoudt amongst the political activists, you are aware of that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I didn't know that they feared me.  Perhaps they did not agree with the work we had done, but I won't say the feared me, really I can't say that.

MR PHOSA: But you do know for a fact that you were considered as being very, let's put it very euphemistically, very firm?  Very strict about things?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Which things, Your Honour?

MR PHOSA: Concerning your work.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I took my work very seriously.

MR PHOSA: You were a person who wanted things done as you wanted them to be done?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, what I expected of my people.

MR PHOSA: Similarly of persons that you questioned, interrogated?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I believed that in my life I wanted to prove cases and that I wanted the truth.