Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I had knowledge as there was a self defence unit there, I knew where he stayed, I had to find him at his house, I knew just his house where he stayed, but I did not know him, but I knew of his actions.

MR HATTINGH: As far as Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya is concerned, who pointed them out to you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Bongani Khaba showed me those people, pointed them out.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say, Mr Gushu, you know where Mr Gwala stayed, do you mean to say that you knew his face, did you know how he looked like?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did not know him facially, but I knew the registration number of his car and I knew his house.   I also knew that there was no other man who was staying at his house but himself, no relatives were staying at his house.

CHAIRPERSON: What if his car on that day was being driven by his driver or even a friend?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Unfortunately, Mr Chair, he was driving the car at that time, on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: The point is, how sure were you you were going to shoot the proper person, that is the issue?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chair, according to my knowledge, nobody else used Gwala's car but himself.   I did not think at all that his car would be driven by somebody else.   I don't know how the Chair sees that.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen him driving that car before?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, even though I was not, I did not come close to the car, I just saw him, the car was moving, I have seen him driving that car, even though the car was in motion.   I wanted to find him and that car.   I had an idea how tall he was and in what manner he dressed, those were the things that were important to me at that time in order to find him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you could see his face?   We're not talking about his height and what kind of clothes he was wearing, couldn't you see his face whilst driving his car during those occasions?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I saw his face, but it's not the same as I'm sitting here and you're sitting there and I can see your face, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   You never worked during this period, never had an income during this period, 1990 to July 1992, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: How did you survive?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was selling dagga.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope you're not going to dispute that.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, have you got any questions?

MR BLACK: There are, not so much as questions, there is something which the applicant would like to say, and there are just one or two questions for clarification.   So...

CHAIRPERSON: It's issues arising out of cross-examination?

MR BLACK: Yes, issues which I need to clarify have arisen out of, will arise out of cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed then.

MR BLACK: All right.

MR BLACK: I just want you to look at this document, which was handed up to us yesterday, Mr Gushu, and it purports to be the police docket.   I just want to look at two pages, or three pages, but look at the document referred to as A44, are those photocopies of your membership cards and ID?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR BLACK: Are those the documents which the police confiscated at your home?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: And that was at the time of your arrest?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is so, Chair.

MR BLACK: So it was well before you had made any confessions and pointings out?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is so, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR BLACK: No.   Mr Chair, may I, what the applicant would also like to, I just want to double-check on my re-examination, could I, I see it's lunchtime now.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll carry on till he's finished.

MR BLACK: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not taking any chances.

MR BLACK: All right.   Now, if you could, where's this thing now, I made a note of it ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I hope, Mr Black, you're not going to tell us about him having fully paid the subscriptions for 1992?

MR BLACK: I most certainly will have to take instructions on that one.

ADV BOSMAN: You did indicate earlier on that you wanted to clear up something around the name of Javu Sithole.   Is that not what you're trying to find?

MR BLACK: I think that has been cleared up by the advocate himself, so I don't think that we need dwell on that.

CHAIRPERSON: So is there anything else you want to clear?

MR BLACK: There's not anything I wish to clear up, but I would, with the permission of the Committee, the applicant has requested that he would like to indicate to the Committee, it really relates to the sufferings of him and his family as a result of these activities, and he'd like to say something to the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll give him that opportunity when necessary.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Gushu, I just want clarity on the question of the weapons with which you armed the SDU's.  I'll put it in two questions, to make it easier.   From which sources did you obtain weapons to arm the SDU's?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chairperson, as the self defence units are trained with the residents of these areas, they knew who I would get weapons from to buy for them, the members of the self defence units.

ADV BOSMAN: (Indistinct) referring to weapons which were bought.   I remember you making mention of weapons you received through dead letter boxes, if I'd heard you correctly.   So where generally, if there were weapons that were bought, were there any other sources of obtaining weapons from?   I don't mean the particular people, but generally how did you obtain weapons?   You bought weapons, and apart from that, were you given weapons by your organisation, or were they only weapons that were bought?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have already said, Lady Chair, Mkhwanazi is the person who would find firearms for me, like AK-47 and Makarovs.   I don't know where he got them from.   I would get a report from him, we'd phone each other and he would tell me that there's a dead letter box at a certain place and I must go there, and when I went to the dead letter box, I would find what I was looking for.

ADV BOSMAN: Am I correct in saying that some weapons were obtained through Mr Mkhwanazi and other weapons were bought, those were your two sources of supply, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: You are correct.

ADV BOSMAN: My last question is, approximately, I know that it wouldn't be possible for you to give an exact number, but approximately how many weapons were received through Mr Mkhwanazi and how many weapons were bought?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I got one AK-47 from Mkhwanazi and a Makarov.   It would be difficult to say how many weapons I bought.   We'd buy some and would give them to the Comrades.   Sometimes the Comrades would get arrested and the weapons would be confiscated, and we'd buy some more, therefore it's difficult to say exactly how many weapons I bought.

ADV BOSMAN: The AK-47 and the makarov, were those received through dead letter boxes, are those the ones you're referring to?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Just on this issue of source of weapons, how many times did you have to buy weapons?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Most of this time, Chair, as most of our, or some of our weapons were confiscated.   It's difficult for me to say how many times, because I would use the money I would get from the dagga I sold sometimes to get weapons.

ADV SANDI: Would one be correct to understand you to say that one of the sources of weapons was Mkhwanazi through the dead letter boxes, and the other source which was, you must correct me if I'm wrong, which was a main source, was through buying those weapons?