Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir I had never discussed Webster with anybody, it was a closed book.  I saw that Verster and other CCB, I saw how they reacted during my detention and the day after the shooting he asked people if we were involved and that made me realise that this project would not be admitted, either by himself or by any other party.  So it was a closed book.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Botha, when you made this statement to Mr Pretorius, was that after the conclusion of Mr Barnard's trial, after he had been convicted of the murder of Dr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Sir, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you elect to make a statement to the Attorney General's office, what was the purpose?  Was it just to purge yourself, to come clean in the spirit of reconciliation or was there some other reason as to why you went to the Attorney General in particular, the Attorney General's office?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir they approached me.  I also went to them with regards to another incident that had nothing to do with the Commission's proceedings, and they also asked me to make a statement in this regard.  The seed was planted and I started thinking about this and struggling with it and I felt that here's an opportunity to come clean and I just then applied myself to it.

MR VAN ECK: You never applied for amnesty for the death of Mr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MR VAN ECK: The post mortem inquest was held.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: The Harms Commission addressed this.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MR VAN ECK: On both occasions you decided not to make known what your role was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any personal knowledge of the instructions given to Mr Barnard?  Did you trust his word?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did.

MR VAN ECK: Why did you continually deny your part in it or to tell the truth, why did you lie all this time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir I will put it to you again, that it was Mr Barnard's project and that I could not take responsibility for something that he had no protection of.  It was very clear that he stood alone.  I was a bystander or outsider, somebody who just assisted him in the execution of the project and I could not disclose the project.  So that was my viewpoint.

MR VAN ECK: With the Harms Commission and the investigation that took place there who covered your legal costs?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was the Defence Force.

MR VAN ECK: It was after you were arrested in terms of Section 29?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did any person with a rank, did they tell you to keep quiet?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, during my detention.

MR VAN ECK: Who did?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Brigadier Krappies Engelbrecht.  He was accompanied by Brigadier van Rensburg while I was detained in Hartebeesfontein.

MR VAN ECK: What was your expectation from the structure of the CCB during the Harms Commission proceedings?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir it was very clear that during our training it was presented to us that we would get indemnity for the acts that we commit and it became clear to me that we will not get the protection from the generals and staff and that it came from a level above them, the politicians, and we were told that what is on the table now we will talk about and we kept to that.

MR VAN ECK: Did you see how your good friend Mr Barnard was dealt with?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did see how they dealt with him.

MR VAN ECK: Did he say anything to you concerning the Dr Webster incident with regards to disclosure?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir, because we saw how Mr Verster and Lafras Luitingh dealt with him it was not negotiable that we would say anything about it.  It would have been a very bad reflection on us.

MR LAX: Can I just interject for one second.  With regard to the issue of indemnity did you understand that you would get indemnity or was it something different to that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I think within the context that you are viewing it it is different.  During our training it was said to us in no uncertain terms that the organisation would at all times enjoy protection whether it be from the generals and staff, whether it be from the politicians to such an extent that I was brought under the impression and I state this categorically that the State would see to our interests if we experienced any problems.  So if I refer to indemnity I say it in the context that we would not be prosecuted.

MR LAX: Does that mean it would be covered up, or the prosecutions would be stopped or how would they get it right?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Most probably a combination of the two that you have just mentioned.  There wouldn't be any prosecution and most probably there would be a cover-up.

MR VAN ECK: The question will be asked as to why after your detention and arrest you did not go to the people in Region 6 and to Joe Verster and say, but Webster was part of your projects you have to protect us.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It would have been denied categorically by Mr Verster.  On various occasions through my regional manager and through Nick Nienaber I said that my involvement was of such a nature that it could expose the structure.  I was led to understand by Mr Nienaber in no uncertain terms that the situation with regards to Mr Barnard was under control and that it would be pressed in a certain direction in order to bring about his release.  Which did not happen.

MR VAN ECK: What was the general feeling regarding you and Mr Barnard's ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, there was a strange translation that came through there, an unusual name was mentioned, did you mean Barnard, were you talking about Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Sir.

MR LAX: Because a name like Marentol came through.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter apologises, it was mis-heard.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Botha, just to follow up on Mr van Eck's question, after the shooting of Dr Webster did you consider that to have been a successful operation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Absolutely, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So what then - we know that your participation was against the rules but the fact that it was a successful operation in the sense that Dr Webster was shot and that the perpetrators had got away without trace, do you think you would have got into trouble even if you divulged your role to your colleagues in the CCB after the event?  If you had told them wasn't there a possibility you might have even got a bonus, project bonus?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I would like to do that but you have heard Mr Verster's position, there was no way that I would risk it, to take recognition for a project which wasn't mine knowing that Mr Barnard did not enjoy the support that he should have received, according to me.

MR VAN ECK: And to return to the compensation regarding the Webster incident, were you with Mr Barnard at the Hyperama in Roodepoort in the parking area?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Was it a well-known area?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.  As Mr Barnard explained we were divided into two and with the vehicle that was three, so we were divided into three segments.  It was a well-known meeting place for all of us.

MR VAN ECK: Who met you there and what happened?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I went with to meet Lafras Luitingh and for the duration of the meeting I remained in the vehicle.

MR VAN ECK: Did you meet Lafras Luitingh personally on that day?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Were you prepared in case anything happened that day?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Due to our training we were always prepared especially with regard to observations and weapons and so forth.  Mr Barnard told me the reason why he wanted me to accompany him and I acted accordingly.

MR VAN ECK: Was anything given to you subsequently?