Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR LAX: Why didn't you just bury them at Umgubaba, instead of going on such a difficult journey, with such a high risk of being caught?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I just wanted all these weapons transported to Twalome, so that I would remain in Umgubaba without any weapon.

MR LAX: But you see the first thing you did when you saw the police, was bury the weapons.  That's the first thing you did.  You saw the police, you saw oh, here's trouble, and you buried them straight away.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is not true.

MR LAX: Well that's what it says in your statement.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is not true.

MR LAX: Maybe I'm making a mistake, let me just double check.  This Annexure D, if you look at page 5, I'll read it for you because you don't have it in front of you and in any case you can't read
"When the police approached me I went to them, but when I approached they were not there.  I went back to the bush, buried my handgrenade and the AK47.  I think the police did not see I was carrying an AK47.  They drove past me and proceeded on the road.  After burying my guns I went back to my friends to inform them that the police were there.  As I was whistling they did not reply.  I thought they had seen the police.  I went back to the road and as I reached the road, police approached from the opposite direction.  They stopped me, they demanded the firearm.  'Where is the firearm', they asked.  I told them I had no firearm.  They asked where I was coming from ..."
etc.  The bottom line is you then showed them where you hid the firearm.  And on top of that the dog bit you at that point.  That's all in this statement here, is that not true?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: It is not true that I buried the weapons.  I did hide them in the bush, but I had not buried them.

MR LAX: You didn't know about this decision to kill Gumede?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: From the way you've testified, it appears as if you didn't know about the decision to kill Gumede.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: I knew about it.

MR LAX: Well you haven't spoken about it at all.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Chairperson, I've been specifically quick with going through his evidence and I asked him to confirm the evidence of the first applicant, and it is on that basis that I decided to run the evidence.  He didn't object to that aspect of the evidence of the first applicant, in fact he confirmed it.
	I obviously don't want to stop any questioning, but I just want to make it clear that, with respect, I don't think it can be held against him because he didn't raise, he has in fact confirmed the evidence of the first witness.

MR LAX: Ja, I'll leave the issue, Chairperson.  I have no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	The people who were in the bus, the males who were in the bus, were they the specific or actual people who displaced you, who attacked you so that you ran away from your homes?  Would you identify them as the people who participated in such attacks?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: No, but what was, what we believed in was that every person who remained in the area was an IFP person, because all of the ANC people had been chased out of the area.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it possible for a person who is not an Inkatha member, to pretend as if he is an Inkatha member, for the sake of remaining in the area?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: It was not easy for that to happen.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, that's the only two questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: There was just one small thing that worried me, you said that, well now you're confirming Mr Shange's evidence, Mr Shange's evidence was that they wanted, he called for the women to come out of the bus, nobody came out of the bus, then fired and hit the top of the bus, then the women came out and with the women came two men.  Did you open fire on those two men as well?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now my question is this; why didn't you make sure they weren't from Nkwale and Mashiwane before you shot them?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Sorry?

MR LAX: You said, and Mr Shange made it very clear, you didn't want to kill anyone not from the area.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: So why didn't you ask those people before you shot them, where they were from?  You were pointing firearms at them, you could have spoken to them, you could have said: "Where are you from, what area are you from"?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: We had already said that those people who are not resident in these two areas should alight and this person from Adams then alighted and he escaped.

MR LAX: You see, the evidence of Mr Shange was very clear, the man from Adams got out of the bus after you shot those two men.  He came out with the first group of women before anything was said about people from other areas.  That's his evidence.
DISCUSSES BETWEEN CHAIRPERSON AND MR LAX
	The man from Adams came out after the women and after you'd shot those two men, and in response, according to Mr Shange's evidence, which you have confirmed to being requested that other people come out.  You're putting it the other way, you're saying you asked first.  Do you understand the difficulty?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Yes, I beg your pardon about that.

MR LAX: Well what is the position, what are you sorry about?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: Mr Shange ordered that the women should alight, they didn't do so and then he fired on top of the bus and then the women started screaming and they then alighted the bus.  Then they alighted.  Whilst they were doing so two men also alighted and we shot at those men.  Thereafter he said those people who were not resident at either Nkwale or Mashiwane should also alight.  That is when that person from Adams also left the bus.

MR LAX: Well you see my original question stands then, and your answer you gave me falls away.  Why did you shoot those people if it was not your intention to shoot people who were not from Nkwale?  You didn't know where these people were from, you didn't know who they were, you just opened fire on them.

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: We realised that they must be involved because they were fleeing.  Their act of alighting with the women was a sign that they were fleeing. They wouldn't have done so if they were not from these two areas.

MR LAX: But everybody wanted to flee, wouldn't you want to flee, wherever you were from?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: And order had already been issued that the women should alight.

MR LAX: Ja, you're not answering my question.  I'll leave it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one follow-up, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ncokwane, it's still based on the area on which I was asking you insofar as identifying your targets.  You were saying you didn't know whether these men who were in the bus were the ones who actually shot at you, but you attacked them because they remained behind, obviously they are IFP members.  My question is, the women also stayed behind and obviously they were IFP members or supporters of the IFP, why were they not attacked?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is because they were not involved in attacking us, we had never witnessed any woman attacking us.

MR SIBANYONI: So the attack was directed at the people who attacked you and forced you to leave the area?

JABULANI TUNENE NCOKWANE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR WILLS: No questions arising, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED