Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: Well, his affidavit says that he was summoned by Brigadier Schoon to collect knock-out drops from Lood and Neethling, which he arranged - and he arranged to meet Nick van Rensburg and his team at Komatiepoort.  It would seem from that that there was very close connection between your Port Elizabeth squad and people in Pretoria.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I suppose that is true if he says that, I had no contact with him.

CHAIRPERSON: And nobody told you?  When your team came back and reported to you, they didn't tell you that they had been assisted by Coetzee from Vlakplaas and that he had brought the knockout drops?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, the matter was not discussed again, it was finalised.

CHAIRPERSON: And you know he's also made statements about the Mthimkhulu matter - the poisoning of Mthimkhulu, in which he says the poisons were flown down by a Mr van den Hoven to hand over to Nick van Rensburg.  Did you know he'd made that allegation?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm aware of that.  I would just like to say that van den Hoven in my time, only came to Port Elizabeth once and that was to attend a funeral in Noupoort.

CHAIRPERSON: And he then said that Major General Johan Coetzee, then Chief of Security personally investigated the case.  Did that happen?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Not as far as I'm aware.

CHAIRPERSON: And that it was then that Jan du Preez told him that it had been decided to kidnap Siphiwe and get rid of him and leave his car at the border. Are you aware that he said this?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I read it in the press.

MR VISSER: Excuse me Mr Chairman, before you move onto something else, could you give us the benefit of what you're referring to, the last document ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Have you not read Mr Coetzee's book?

MR VISSER: Oh the book.  I'm sorry well, I did not - that wasn't part of my preparation, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The reference is 5485.  Now we've heard about Mr Mthimkhulu's political activities which resulted in his being detained on the 31st of May, was it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was kept in detention for nearly 6 months - 4 to 6 months, wasn't he?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when he came out of detention he was in a very bad state of health and he had to be taken first to a hospital in Port Elizabeth and then to Groote Schuur hospital.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm not aware of the fact that he was in poor physical condition when he was released, I can't comment on that.  I do know that he became ill and that he was taken to a hospital in Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was there for some months.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that when he was released, he was a wheelchair case.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And up to the time of his death he was still hobbling around with a stick, he couldn't walk properly.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the man - the man you considered so potentially dangerous as an activist that he should be killed - this invalid?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find any arms and ammunition in any dead letter box established by Madaka?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, during that time there were many caches found, I can't remember whether it had any relevance to Madaka.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought that you told us that he was responsible for establishing them?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That was the information provided to me.

CHAIRPERSON: But this was one of the reasons for killing him and now you've said you're not sure if it was relevant to him or not.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, what I'm saying is that I am saying there were weapon caches found, not in his immediate house.

CHAIRPERSON: What you said - my note is: "Some information was available that he transported weapons between Lesotho and this area and that he was responsible for establishing DLB's", which you explained were dead letter boxes where weapons could be stored.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well was ...[inaudible], did you find any that he was responsible for?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What we are saying is, we found these weapon caches and I've explained that this information, according to what was conveyed to me, came from a source very near to him which we could not use against him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you never verified to see if this was true or not but it was one of the factors you say you took into account in killing him.  Is that the position Colonel?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What was put to me - because I knew these people, I accepted as the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the informer that was so close to him that you didn't want him or her to be exposed?  Is that where your information came from?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, I assume so.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think as a matter of correction, it was in fact then that you said: "In all probability there was not sufficient evidence to charge him, it would lead to his release and the informer would then be killed", you were talking about Madaka when you talked about insufficient evidence.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is what I have said.

CHAIRPERSON: Just bear with me.

ADV SANDI: Mr Erasmus, who took the decision that the information or the evidence available was insufficient to secure a conviction against Madaka and Mthimkhulu?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, we know what we have and this information is weighed up.

ADV SANDI: You did not seek the opinion of the Attorney General to see whether one could secure any conviction on the basis of that evidence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I did not Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: If I understand you clearly, that is to say that you were a judge as well as an executioner in your own case.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: You can call me that.

ADV SANDI: What I mean is, because there was not sufficient evidence to have these people convicted in a court of law, you decided that they should be killed because they won't be convicted in court.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, we considered all the options for example, a court case and this was the only solution we found.

ADV SANDI: When you took the decision that these two young men should be killed, in terms of what law were you acting?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman with respect, is that a fair question?  We know it was illegal, he wasn't acting in terms of any law, we know that.

ADV SANDI: I think we should get it from him.

MR VISSER: It's a legal argument, it's not in terms of the act and it's an unfair question, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's fair to say: "You knew that you were going to order two junior officers to commit one of the most gross irregularities that a policeman could commit and yet you did not take the trouble to get authority from anyone higher up the chain", is that an accurate picture?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: In the course of our evidence yesterday and today, you said you considered a number of options before you finally decided that the two should be killed.  You mentioned detention as well as prosecution, are there any other options which you gave a thought?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: There were no other options, those were the only two options.

ADV SANDI: Did you not have powers in terms of the security laws of the country to keep these gentlemen in detention for as long as you like?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: At that stage Mr Chairman, I have already said we could not detain Mthimkhulu again.

ADV SANDI: You had detained him before and the detention had no effect on him, is that what you're saying?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.