Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody, I apologise for the late delay.  The reason for the delay was that the bundle of documents had to be copied for certain of the representatives, so we won't take the tea adjournment now, we will go straight through to lunch time.  Before we start, I would just like to introduce the panel to you.  On my right is Adv Sandi, he is from East London, a member of the Amnesty Committee.  On my left is Mr Sibanyoni, he is an Attorney from Pretoria, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the Transkei Division of the High Court.  I would like to at this stage ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Lungelo Mbandazayo.  I am representing an interested party, Major S.M. Mhlulwa.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MAZAHAM: Mr Chairperson, Gary Mazaham, Attorney Johannesburg, representing Rayner Moringer, the applicant for amnesty at this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mazaham.

MR NDENGEZI: Mr Chairman, I am Shilock Dumisani Ndengezi, representing Colonel Washington Mzwaiba, an implicated person, and from Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndengezi.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Sebolelo Qantu Mapoma, representing one of the implicated persons, one Sipalela (indistinct) Mkuduga, and I am from Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, I am the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Before we start, these proceedings will be simultaneously translated into English, Afrikaans and Xhosa.  To benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices, they are available from the Sound Technician.  Channel 1 is Afrikaans, Channel 2 is English and Channel 3 is Xhosa.  Mr Mazaham.

MR MAZAHAM: The applicant will be the sole person giving evidence on his behalf.  I will as far as possible, to avoid delay, if I may lead him in so far as will be required to satisfy the essential elements of the Act entitling the applicant at the close of his case, to satisfy yourselves that he does warrant amnesty.  If I may then at this stage, call on the applicant and then address the questions as may be necessary to adduce that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mazaham.  Do you have any objecting to taking the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I have got no objection taking the oath.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: (sworn states)

MR MAZAHAM: Mr Moringer, what are your full names?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Rayner Maria Moringer.

MR MAZAHAM: And where are you currently resident and domiciled?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: In Randburg, Johannesburg, 11 Shepherd Avenue, Beverley Gardens.

MR MAZAHAM: Could you please go back to your first involvement with the Transkei and more particularly the Transkei Military Intelligence and in so doing, try to amplify for us exactly how your role in this particular field, developed.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think my first contact with the Transkei, was a business contact dating back as early as 1984, where I tried to establish some business in the Transkei and I had meetings with the then Chief George Matanzima, but nothing materialised, and I think about 1986, my contacts stopped again, it might have been 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of business were you trying to establish there, what line of business?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I tried to establish a small aircraft factory in Southern Africa and I approached at that time, the Transkeian government, the Botswana government and at a later stage, the then Ciskeian government.

MR MAZAHAM: Mr Moringer, on that point, with regard to the business venture envisaged, because it will become material during the course of this hearing if one reads the Bundle that has been made available to us, could you please tell me what subsequently transpired in so far as the business venture relating to the aircraft factory was concerned, as briefly as possible?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, I tried to establish it in either Botswana, Transkei.  Both conditions for a factory did not really suit our requirements and the discussions basically were terminated and at a later stage, the factory was built with the help of the then Ciskei Peoples' Development Bank, at Bisho airport in the Ciskei.  At that time, the government in the Transkei was, I think the Prime Minister was Chief George Matanzima.

MR MAZAHAM: Did the factory actually operate?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, in the Ciskei.  It was later established in the Ciskei.

MR MAZAHAM: Thereafter when did you renew your association or involvement with the Transkei and in particular the Transkei Military Intelligence?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think it was late 1988, where I established contact to Gen Charles Sebe who was in the Transkei at that time, and through him, I was introduced to then Colonel Mzwaiba, then Major, now Colonel Mzwaiba.

MR MAZAHAM: What role if any, did you play at that point in 1988?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At that point, in 1988, Charles Sebe was in the Transkei trying to set something in motion to overthrow his brother in the, Lennox Sebe, in the Ciskei and I got involved there.

MR MAZAHAM: I am informed that for certain reasons which I would like you just to explain, you could not directly take a permanent appointment in the Intelligence sector of any other country.  Could you please just place on record why?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Well, it was never my intention and secondly, I am an Austrian citizen and I would lose my Austrian citizenship the moment I would take employment in any foreign military or other service.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mazaham to interrupt.  Mr Moringer, you say that you in 1988, you established contact with Charles Sebe who was then in Transkei and you then got introduced to the Major who is now the Colonel.  Why did you make contact with Sebe, was that through Intelligence business, were you in any way linked with the Intelligence in Ciskei or was it just coincidence or had you known him before, under what circumstances did you make contact with Sebe then in Transkei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I made contact with Charles Sebe at the time because I ran into problems with his brother in the Ciskei, with Lennox Sebe, with my business in the Ciskei.  My approach to Charles Sebe was that we might have mutual interests which we should discuss and maybe find out what we could do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mazaham?

MR MAZAHAM: Thereafter, from 1988 what transpired to your next period of involvement?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think other than the involvement in regards to the Ciskei, I was based in Johannesburg, I was in contact mainly with then Major, now Colonel, Mzwaiba on a regular basis, but nothing specific at that time, happened until I think early 1991.

MR MAZAHAM: Just so that we have the sequence of events completed, in the intervening period from 1989 to 1991, as the press reports have frequently held, you were charged and stood trial on a count of fraud, allegedly involving approximately R52 million?  What exactly, very briefly, gave rise to that and what was the result?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I was accused of I wouldn't say fraud, but foreign exchange fraud, initially to the extent of close to R50 million which related to my aircraft business or my involvement in aviation business.  I was arrested and bail was refused for ten months, and it came, some time during 1990, it came finally through a court case at the Supreme Court with Judge Zuhrman and the whole case was, I think you better use the technical terms, I wouldn't say thrown out of court, but we made an application and the case was dismissed.