Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't know of him in terms of soccer or whatever, but if I were to see him on the soccer field or if I were to see him in the area, I would know he played soccer, but I don't have any interaction  or social ...

CHAIRPERSON: And you would know him to be Terrence Coetzee?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I wouldn't know him to be Terrence Coetzee, I would just know the face.  It is like ...

CHAIRPERSON: So how do you know when Mr du Plessis mentions the name Terrence Coetzee now?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because I read the statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you know just from your knowledge of these documents?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Let me just add, the only soccer person I knew there was someone by the nickname of Boere Erickson.  That is the only person I knew in terms of the soccer grouping.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Godfrey Blignaut?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't know him.

MR P DU PLESSIS: His position is the same as Mr Coetzee?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You may have known the face, but not the name?   Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now, just tell me, you say that you have read the documents, is that referring to the statements to which I was referring now, when I read the names?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I read it this morning.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You read the statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because I had the thick book with the hand-written version, and I saw these things.  I didn't basically go out and prepare myself around things like that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well sir, you said you read the statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, this morning.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you read the statements, don't interrupt me please, did you read the statements or didn't you read the statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I did this morning.

MR P DU PLESSIS: This, the Cape Youth Congress, Cape Youth Congress, did they meet at the Early Learning Centre regularly?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, they did not.

MR P DU PLESSIS: On how many occasions say per year, can you remember, more or less?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I could almost be certain they could have met there once in two months, or whatever, but it was never part of the venue.  We had floating venues wherever.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You had several venues, and it depended on whose turn it was to stage the meeting, is that what you are saying?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.  That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you would from time to time have a meeting at the Early Learning Centre?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is a possibility, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So, is it possible or not, did it happen?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It is possible, I have just said it is a possibility, yes.  We would have meetings there from time to time, not regularly.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you would arrange it for the Early Learning Centre?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not necessarily the ELC, it could have been CRIC which is adjacent.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: CRIC, Careers Research Information Centre, which is next to the ELC, that same road.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you arrange meetings or did you just go to a certain place and by coincidence, there would be a meeting, obviously you would arrange it beforehand?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You would arrange it, that is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you would have arranged it for a specific date, time and venue?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Who was responsible for arranging this specific meeting that evening?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I cannot recall whose responsibility it was that evening, but the meeting point would have been CRIC and from there we would have gone to the venue.  CRIC is adjacent to the ELC.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is it part of the same building?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Have you got  your map in front of you?

MR P DU PLESSIS: I have, yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There is a centre with a blue roof, do you see it clearly?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is CRIC.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So are you saying that the meeting was in fact arranged for that building?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I am not saying, that was the meeting point, outside CRIC, it wasn't arranged for that building.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you meet the people who were supposed to come to the meeting, at that venue that you have just referred to now?  Did you meet them there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I said I came late, I came there at ten past eight.  I didn't meet them there ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: (Indistinct)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were coming towards the ELC, because they knew we were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Alexander, I just cannot quite understand it.  If I attend a meeting at the ELC, why should I go and meet people at CRIC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And go from CRIC to there, why can I not go straight there, if the meeting is arranged for the ELC at eight o'clock or whatever?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In the era, Your Worship, we would get together at a central point, and from there, we would move to the venue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but why get together at a central point, I mean we all came here today from different places, we didn't all meet at the end of the freeway and come in as a group, there is no point in that?  What was the point, why did you meet at a central point to go to a meeting at another place?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The point was, we were all political activists and we would meet at a particular point and go from there to the venue.

MR LAX: That still does not explain to us.  I mean if the venue of the meeting was the ELC, why not meet at the ELC?  The problem is if the venue was known, then  you would go to the venue?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The venue wasn't known, at the time, it was decided on that evening, that we would meet at the ELC.  The meeting point would have been CRIC and from there we would have gone to a venue, but because we were the closest and our meeting was in process, sort of round about the time, that is when we decided we will use ELC.
	But there was never a predetermined matter that the Cayco meeting would be at ELC.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, because you said to Mr du Plessis that the venue, the date, etc, was arranged, I just assumed that it would have been arranged before that date?  So you all meet at a certain designated point and then there, decided on an ad hoc basis for that night, where to have a meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  So that was for purposes of avoiding the wrong people knowing where you were, the wrong people being the authorities of the time, the government, the police, Secret Police, etc?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, for safety purposes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: For safety purposes?   So, are you saying that the place where you were actually supposed to meet, would only be decided on once you meet at a specific predesignated point, then you would say "okay, from here we will move to that building and we will have our meeting there"?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It would be the norm, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you would go to this,  you said CRIC, how do you spell it, by the way?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: C-R-I-C.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You would go to CRIC and you would say "okay, from here we will go to that house or that shop or to this building and we will have our meeting there", is that so?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not to the end degree, but it would have happened in that manner.  There were only x amount of venues available within the area.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well, obviously you didn't go, it is now very clear that you wouldn't go to the same place every time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you would meet at  CRIC and then you would only then decide to go to A, B or C, isn't it so?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was lucky that you found them at the ELC, because you wouldn't have known they were meeting at the ELC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I was coming to my Youth meeting, to Kewtown Youth Meeting.