Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-22

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The, Vuyo's aim, he actually wanted to shoot in the air to scare those people, to actually force them to stop, to make them stop.  Because we wouldn't aim at the driver or the tyres, because if we shoot the driver the car, we, we would not be able to use the car, because it would capsize.  And if we shot the tyres we wouldn't use the car also, because it couldn't move, it wouldn't move.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, who shot in the second car after it also passed you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I shot to the second car.  I shot at the second car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, did you shoot at the car or did you shoot in the air?  Can you explain to the Committee, or to the driver?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: When the car was coming towards our direction, I pointed at the car.  When it passed a little bit, I shot in the air.  And when it was at a distance in front of us it stopped and we ran to the car, that's when we took the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, I understand that you were finally arrested for that offence and you were sentenced to a long time, for a long time in jail.  Can you be able to explain to the Committee whether the owners of the other car were present in court to give evidence with regard to that car?  With regard to what happened to their car, which you said it passed, it never stopped?

MR PRIOR: Is this the first car, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, the first car which it never stopped.  Can you be able to tell the court, whether they were in court, where you convicted for that offence or not?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: With the first bakkie there was no charge, I was never sentenced for that, and on that same day even, I, I was surprised today to get to know that something happened on that day.  Even when the Investigation Officer was asking me of some of the things he didn't bring that to me.  I'm surprised that something happened on that day.

MR PRIOR: Just, what do you mean you ...(indistinct), happened on that day?  What are you trying to tell us?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: With the first bakkie I knew that nothing happened, because there was no charge that was laid against me, against us concerning that car.  I didn't hear anything about it.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that you are surprised it has surfaced in these papers, is that what you are saying, before us?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was surprised to hear that there were people who were shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell without your attorney that there was a statement that two people in that car were injured, were shot.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm not sure how many people were there.  What I can remember, there was a gunshot, that's all I can remember.

MR PRIOR: Well, somebody was injured in that vehicle.   Two, two people were injured in that vehicle.  Do you acknowledge that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, but I did not know that.

MR PRIOR: Thanks, please continue Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I won't go through the whole affidavit, because I would like to have the guidance of the Committee, Mr Chairman, because it involve a number of issues, the other one is not going to be the subject of this one.  Of this hearing, which is the farm attack, it includes also the farm attack.  I would like to go to whether the other one for the, at prison he applied for amnesty for "Sodai" also.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo, I think let's, we're going to do the farm attacks as part of that hearing when we're going to do them all together I understand, so let's not lead evidence now that we would end up duplicating unnecessarily.  Let's restrict ourselves to this issue.  So there are really three issues here, the one is the first shooting, the one is the second highjacking, if you want to call it that, and then the attack on the Police Station itself.  Let's just deal with those three incidents as one, one process leading up to the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm, I agree with that one and also for the farm attack, there is also one here he apply for in prison that he was sentenced for.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo we know about that one, but that doesn't need to be heard at all, it is a matter we can with in chambers later.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Can you, Mr Dolo, is there any other thing you want to tell the Committee regarding this incident?  That is all that happened before the attack at Police Station and after you have completed your attack at the Police Station.  Is there anything you want to add that you have not said to this Committee up until to now?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Are you asking me about after we had attacked the Police Station, or is there anything that I did thereafter?  Can you please clarify that for me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm saying is that is there anything you want to add regarding this incident, whether it's before the attack or after the attack, which you not told the Committee?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There is nothing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what happened after you have arrived at Mbele-Mbele's place at ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We spent a night there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to the weapons you had?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We handed them over to Comrade Happy.  Comrade Happy put them somewhere.  He gave me a pistol so that I can secure myself during the night, so that I could secure myself during the night.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee the reason why you attacked the Police Station?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The reason for the Police Station attack.  The Police during the times of oppression, they were actually the perpetrators.  They were the oppressors and the SANDF, South African National Defence Force, therefore it was necessary that the Police, it was necessary that we attack the Police to force the Government, to force the Government to come to our level as freedom fighters.  Even the Police, as they were able to shoot innocent people.  They, they should know that there are people who can do the same.  They should know that there are people who can also kill them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbandazayo, does the applicant intend to say anything to those who were affected in one way or the other by these incidents and acts on there behalf?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dolo is there anything you want to say to the people who was affected by your attack at the Police Station, and also those people you, you robbed their car, and those who were injured when you tried to take there car.  Is there anything you want to say to them at this stage, this hearing?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I would like to apologise, ask for forgiveness to those people who were injured in the first bakkie.  The aim, I want to say that it was not our wish that we should injure Africans, it was not our aim to hurt them, it was not the aim to hurt them.  I sympathise with them, because what happened on that day, it, it happened that they were injured also on that same day, on that same day.  I ask for forgiveness, I ask for forgiveness again to the owner of the car, the one that we took.  It was not our aim to hurt him, to take his car by force but, because of the situation that was prevailing at that time we were forced to do that on that day, because we did not have time to talk to him nicely and ask him nicely to give us his car, because that would not succeed.  I ask, I'm asking for forgiveness, that was not my aim.  I will end there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dolo it seems from your affidavit, that you have confirmed as your evidence, you received quite extensive military and political training as a member of APLA.  Is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That is correct Sir.

MR PRIOR: And you've as you indicated you were at one stage a battalion Commander, a Chief Instructor?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That is correct Sir.