Special Hearings — Political Party — 1998-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa?

MOHAMMED VALLI MOOSA: Perhaps if you just take yourself, put yourself in the South Africa of the period of which the UDF was active, 1983 August to 1990 - Popo, when did you close it, February, March?  Somewhere around there.  If you take yourself in that period I think that, I don't want to say you may not have asked that question but frankly what were we expected to do?
 In that short period of time Terror spent 5 years or so in prison for the 7 year period during which UDF was active, so did Popo, I was in prison about three times during that period, I don't know about Murphy.   We were banned when we were not in prison, other times we were on the run and there's nothing special about us.  Most UDF activists were in that position, thousands and thousands of people, not just because we were in the leadership.
 Frankly there was - if we were able to do this in some instances I think it is a marvel that that even happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lekota?

MASUA GERARD PATRICK LEKOTA: Mr Chairperson, let me just add something that must help Mr Mpshe understand this question here.  There is such a thing which is called: "lebulo" you know, in the African community, which means you form a pier group out of that.  Now if your pier group excludes you there's nothing more painful.  You've got to understand that at that time to be a comrade, to be a member of the movement, to be a member of any organisation in your community that was seen as an organisation looking for freedom, was very special status.
 To wear the T-shirt of that movement, to be trusted by the community was very unique.  This kind of thing you don't get anywhere else.  It's like when you came from jail the regime might say you're a terrorist or something like that.  At that time within our communities you were a very special hero.  In fact communities organised welcome things for you like this.  So this was not a small punishment this, to say you may not wear a T-shirt of the movement.  It meant you were a danger to the community and in fact if people speaking to police they might demand what you were discussing with the police.
 So you have to understand that not wearing the T-shirt as the magnitude of the punishment that it represented.  And also because this punishment became important because we had begun, our movement had begun to identify at that time some individuals who were agent provocateurs.  That the regime was buying T-shirts of the movement, giving it some informers of agent provocateurs to go into the ranks and do this.
 And so when you were told not to wear a T-shirt it could well have meant that you were in fact an agent provocateur, you were working for the other side.  I leave that to your imagination, to see what the consequences might have been.  Not instructed by the organisation your home could have been burnt down, other things could happen, were beyond our control but just that was not small.  Now the other conditions have been sketched out.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, the question I want to pose is still on page 14 under
"Popular Justice"
 I am well aware Mr Chair, that the submission does not include what I'm going to ask but I thought that this could be thrown in since it deals with the people's courts and the organs of people's power.  It's the issue of the killing of the so-called or the alleged witches.
 You will recall Mr Chair and members of the panel as well that this was rampant, particularly in the Northern Province and also in some parts of the country.  Does the leadership perhaps have any input to make on this question of witches, as to whether it was in the realm of that mass action?  I know it is not in the submission but I think they may able.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molefe?

POPO MOLEFE: No, I think we'll ask Murphy and Valli to deal with this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, let's hear about the witches.  Mr Morobe?

MURPHY MOROBE: They come from the Northern Province.

MOHAMMED VALLI MOOSA: I think the question of witches, perhaps if I recall the kinds of discussions which we used to have in the UDF, perhaps in ways that are more significant than dealing with the question of the necklace per se.  This is one issue that had pre-occupied us in several meetings of the UDF if you consider that at any one of our meetings we would have representatives coming from the Northern Province in particular.
 They would not open their mouths in the meetings without starting with the problems of witches because it was such an endemic thing in terms of tearing society apart in the community, in that it also created difficulties for them to be able to do normal and ordinary political work.
 Some of us even had a suspicion that some of our comrades who came to these meetings actually believed in this witchcraft story because you know, we come from Johannesburg, lighting is lightning, it gets conducted down to the ground and you dissipate it but not in the Northern Province.
 Now this was then an issue that confronted us with that magnitude and I'm aware that there had in fact been significant attempts by our activists in the Northern Province in villages, going to some of the villages to have meetings, meeting with some of the chiefs and so on and in instances trying to come to the assistance and aid of some of the women.
 In most instances it tended to be women who were the victims of much of this particular problem there and so whilst we had no particular policy on witchcraft, I think there was a recognition that witchcraft is one of those skills of our community, the Northern Province being one. 
 And clearly, our recognition was that no matter how many statements you can issue in the press about people stopping this particular thing, the only solution to this is education.  Now we know as well as we all do that in terms of the profile for education the Northern Province is one of the worst provinces especially because it's the one province where the majority of its citizens by far compared to any other province is women and children.  They have the highest concentration of women and children in the country.
 I'm not saying that therefore there is a link in women and witchcraft but I think that their relative status in that community and the fact that there must be a history behind a lot of these things.  And the absence of education is a major problem.  And hence one of the challenges for us as the UDF at the time was what projects or programmes we can actually support in those communities, that could begin to help people get around this difficulty.
 Indeed it is something that even today it's a phenomenal that had nothing to do with the period of the UDF.  It could be that the advent of politics and when politics get mixed up with witchcraft as well the concoction can be worse than a molotov cocktail I think.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've answered the question.  I'm not sure we need to ask anyone else to elaborate unless you want to, thank you.  Mr Mpshe?
NO SOUND

UNKNOWN: ... the beginning of the submission.  Having been told or knowing the UDF as a remarkable high profile organisation we've not been told whose idea this was.  I recalled Mr Chair, when reading certain documents, that Doctor Allen Boesak was mentioned in passing, OT was also mentioned in passing but the delegation has not indicated to us as to whose idea was this.
 Now we want to know whether this arose just spontaneously as it was eluded that this was the position inasfar as the speech at the rally by Doctor Allen Boesak is concerned or was it something that was externally imported or conceived?  Thank you Mr Chair.