Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: As the affidavit stands, you became - according to your affidavit, aware of Ngo's homosexual relationship with Ngo before he killed Mr Venter or rather Mr Ngo's homosexual relationship with Mr Venter before he killed Mr Venter.

MR ERASMUS: No, that inference I drew after the court case.  Mr Venter is dead now, I don't want to ascribe things to him which he cannot defend

ADV MEMANI: You see Mr Erasmus, to someone who has heard the evidence, the chronology in the affidavit doesn't allow a construction which you want to put now.

MR ERASMUS: I don't agree with that.

ADV MEMANI: I will deal with that in argument.  Now, you deny any knowledge of the people who took Mr Ngo to Mr Venter's house after he was attacked?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I do not know who took him there.  It could have possibly been members of the security branch, I do not deny that but I do not know who they were.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus, you and all the other people who were in the security branch at that time have been aware of the evidence of Mr Ngo for almost a year now and yet up to now there does not appear to be anyone who ascertained who took Ngo to Mr Venter's house after he was attacked by students?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, this is not important for me.

ADV MEMANI: How can it not be, because it is alleged that you arranged that?

MR ERASMUS: I did not make those arrangements because no arrangements were necessary, Mr Ngo lived there.

ADV MEMANI: And that it was actually conveyed by members of the security branch?

MR ERASMUS: It could possibly have been so, these members could have taken him there after he was discharged from the hospital.

ADV MEMANI: I've already said to you it is strange that no attempt has been made to ascertain who amongst the black members who were there, actually conveyed him.

MR ERASMUS: I have to repeat, it's unimportant for me.

ADV MEMANI: And you told us that you were away when the incident occurred.

MR ERASMUS: Correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: That was never put to Mr Ngo.

MR ERASMUS: I cannot comment on that.  The day that the incident took place I was away, I was not in Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: And what's even worse is that in your evidence in chief you do not sound sure, you said that you suspect you might have been at an officers course.

MR ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman, during Mr Mohape trial after this incident, I was busy with an officers course.

ADV MEMANI: Let me see what my note says then.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Memani, he was referring to the time when the trial took place.

ADV MEMANI: Yes Mr Chairman, I've seen that.  I want to see what his explanation of his absence was during the time when Ngo was attacked.
	Can you perhaps remind us what you said?

MR ERASMUS: I was on the farm with my parents when the incident occurred.

ADV DE JAGER: I think you are now referring to another incident.  I think the question is: "When Mr Ngo was attacked, where were you then"?

MR ERASMUS: That's correct Mr Chair, on the day when he was attacked at the school I was not in Bloemfontein.  I was on the farm on the Saturday, I was notified on there and I returned to Bloemfontein on the Sunday.

ADV MEMANI: And you see, from the evidence of Mr Mohape, the attack on Mr Ngo occurred on a school day.

MR ERASMUS: That's correct Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And I thought you just said that the attack took place on Saturday while you were at the farm and you came back the Sunday?

MR ERASMUS: No, Mr Chair, I was on the farm where I was notified about the incident that had occurred.  Some of my colleagues phoned me there and informed me that such an incident had occurred, I think that was the Friday that the incident occurred.

ADV MEMANI: What surprises me is that this was not put to Mr Ngo.

MR ERASMUS: I don't know whether my presence in Bloemfontein would have made any difference as to whether he would have been attacked or not.

ADV MEMANI: When he were saying that you made arrangements for his transfer from home to Mr Venter's place?

MR ERASMUS: I can't comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: Where is your parents place?

MR ERASMUS: Brandewyn's Kuil, Vosburg.

ADV MEMANI: Where's this Vosburg?  How many kilometres is it from Bloemfontein?

MR ERASMUS: It is 480 kilometres from Bloemfontein in the Karoo.

ADV MEMANI: It is interesting that on two occasions when you are implicated by Ngo, you are at Vosburg, isn't it?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I visited my parents regularly, it is not strange, it is a fact and those are the facts.

ADV MEMANI: Were you on leave at the time?

MR ERASMUS: I can't remember whether I was on leave or whether I had rest days where I left earlier, I can't tell you.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that your denial that you knew Mr Venter and your version that you were not concerned about him and that is did not matter to you that Ngo suddenly started living with a stranger whilst he was your informer, is untrue.

MR ERASMUS: The statement is not correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And that it is motivated by a desire by yourself to distance yourself from the murder of Mr Venter.

MR ERASMUS: I don't wish to distance myself from the murder on Mr Venter, I was not involved with it.

ADV MEMANI: If I may have a moment M'Lord.
	Mr Erasmus, I heard you to be saying that the attack, rather the charge of attempted murder on Mr Mohape had nothing to do with security branch.  Was I following the evidence correctly when I made that note?

MR ERASMUS: Indirectly it had an influence on the security branch because he was an informer but the criminal data was investigated by the detective branch, the security branch was not involved.

ADV MEMANI: I see.  I'm glad that you've realised your mistake.  When Mr Ngo was stationed in unit 19 in Mamelodi, did you have any contact with him?

MR ERASMUS: Chair, I on two occasions came across him in Pretoria while I was busy with the court case while he was stationed at unit 19, yes.

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] because I thought there was a clear misunderstanding.  My learned friend was talking about Mr Mohape and the witness was talking about Mr Ngo and that question and answer just before we went to Mamelodi Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Did you see him at court?

MR ERASMUS: No, Mr Chair, the court case which I am referring to was a case which we investigated, the case was heard in Pretoria and I met him in the street there.  It was not in the court case or in the court where I came across  him.

ADV MEMANI: You came across him twice, was it in the street on both occasions?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, that's correct.

ADV MEMANI: I'm sorry if I do not seem to be leading anywhere, I was just taking instructions.  I don't know why I was asked to ask the question.  Let us proceed to the next question. Now, is it not true Mr Erasmus, that on occasions people were used by security branch even if they were not members of security branch?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I'm not exactly sure what the reference is to but we were part of the police.

ADV MEMANI: Is it not true that some policemen actually worked with security branch while they were not in fact registered at security branch?

MR ERASMUS: No, Mr Ngo was there on detached service.  Earlier this morning I mentioned the investigating team which worked there but I don't have knowledge of any other individuals.

ADV MEMANI: I don't understand why you have to start by denying that Ngo was not in detached service.  The question that I put to you was: "Is it not true that some policemen do work for security branch even if they're not members of the security branch"?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I know of those two, Mr Ngo and the unrest investigating team, I don't know of any others.