Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there anything you want to add to what you have already told the Committee regarding the incident at Wesselsbron?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.  We are here today, we are living, we have democracy because of the missions of APLA as an organisation, as they were pressuring the boers to take note at our demands and the negotiations that were taking place at Kempton Park.  The PAC was also involved in the negotiations.  That also pressurised the boers to take notice of what was happening.  That is why today we are living like this, it is because of those pressures.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

ADV SOGODI: In your application, you say that you went to kill there because there would be AWB people and SA police members.  Now on this day when you committed this act, did you see any policemen or SAP people, or AWB people when you got to the supermarket?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It might happen that they were there, but they were un-uniformed, maybe they were un-uniformed.

ADV SOGODI: But as a trained soldier, didn't you think it necessary to look out specifically for those people?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It was not important to us to look out for those people whether they were AWB or whatever, it was not important for us, as APLA members we didn't have soft targets and hard targets, even if the AWB people were not there, those who were there were the right people to be shot at.

ADV SOGODI: I understand that, but the thing is, from your application, the reason why you identified that particular supermarket is because it was patronised by AWB and SAP
people.  So if that was the main reason for having identified that particular target, I would have reasoned that it would be necessary at least that before you launch an attack, you see if these people that you used to identify the target were there, because in that, in fact you could have gone to kill anyone, you could have gone to - I mean it wouldn't have even been necessary to do a reconnaissance and identify a particular target.  Why I'm asking you is because of your application, because you identified that particular target because it was patronised by AWB and SAP.  Now I want to know why you didn't look or deem it necessary to check if there were AWB or SAP people on that day?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: In our plan, even if they were not there, we were going to shoot anyone who was in the shop, as long as they were white, so that, they were the people who were actually benefitting from the old government, the oppressive government, because if they were innocent, they would exert pressure to the government that the people should vote, everyone should vote and we should be given a chance to vote and be part and parcel in the decision-making of the country.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you said in your application that you were told to go and kill those people as there were AWB and SA Police Force members in the supermarket.  Do you remember saying that in your application?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I remember writing it down on my application, but it's not detailed, today I'm giving you full details about that matter, so that it should be clear to you.

CHAIRPERSON: And who gave you the instructions to do this?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The person who gave us instruction to do this, it was the regional commander, who got his instruction from the Director of Operations.

CHAIRPERSON: And who is that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: That was Mpashlele.

CHAIRPERSON: Raymond Leklapa Mpashlele?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he instruct you to go to this place?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: He is the one who issued that instruction to the regional commander to further issue another instruction to us to continue with the mission.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Sir, the view of the victims is that your application, the basis for your application, does not, in any event, in any sense, have a political motive, your actions at that day was indiscriminate shooting of business people in Wesselsbron.  Do you have any reaction to that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Whoever is saying that has got the right to say so, because they were enjoying the wealth of our country.  He or she's got the right to say so, because that actually sabotaged his or her capitalism, and they were not actually feeling what we were feeling as the people of this land.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you establish before this incident or during your planning incident whether or not any of the people in the shop are business people, or in any event members of a political party or not, because I can tell you now that if necessary the victims will come and state that neither any of them ever belonged to any political party?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: If they were not affiliated in any of the political organisations, even if they were not affiliated, but the fact remains the government belonged to them, they were governing the country, and if they could see that what the government was doing to us was wrong, they were supposed to take action and oppose whatever that was being done by the government, to stand up and tell the government that this is wrong, because they would be affected by the consequences.

MR STEENKAMP: Just for clarity's sake, Sir, am I right in saying the people, when you entered the shop, nobody resisted you and nobody was armed, am I right?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I don't know if the people there were unarmed or armed, because we didn't get a chance to search them personally.

MR STEENKAMP: But when you gave the order that they must lie down, all of them did that, is that correct, they didn't resist you, am I right?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I didn't tell them to lie down, I told them to lift up their hands.

MR STEENKAMP: And did they do that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: And then afterwards you gave the order that the shooting must "maar" start, is that right, after the incident you gave the order, the shooting must start?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Was this policy - was what you did in that shop, was that part of PAC policy, to shoot people after they lifted their arms and they basically did what you asked, was that part and parcel of PAC policy?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It says the white man is the one who is oppressing us, and I grew under those circumstances, so even if he has lifted his arms or not, you've got to kill him, so that his government could feel the pressure and see that the government's own people are dying, therefore they can do something about that.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe I've missed that answer, but can you just explain to me, how would the killing of these innocent people benefit your political cause as members of APLA at that stage?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We were going to get liberation, the one that the people are talking about today.  What APLA was fighting for was liberation.  APLA was aiming at getting liberation.

MR STEENKAMP: What was your main focus that day, to kill people or to rob them, what was your focus that day?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The two of them goes hand in hand.  We were not getting financial assistance from anywhere.  As well-trained people, we had to fund-raise ourselves, so that we can continue with the struggle, we could continue with the struggle, because we solely depended on ourselves.

MR STEENKAMP: But surely, Sir, you could have taken the money and leave, it was totally unnecessary to kill those people, wouldn't you agree, because that's what the victims are saying?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, according to the victims, there was no reason for us to kill, but to us there was a reason to kill.

MR STEENKAMP: Were you instructions the same, that you actually must go there and kill, is that what your instructions were, from your commander?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question?