Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: I suggest to you, Mr Mthembu, that you are being selective again in your memory.   You have been through the documents, your affidavits, recently with your advocate and there are certain things here, I'll take you, for example, to paragraph 12, page 8, where you deal with the role of Mr Dlamini.   You say there that he said
"There was a meeting because our people were dying.  They were being killed by the ANC people and Umkhonto we Sizwe.  Dlamini said this problem must be reported to Buthelezi."
You don't remember any of this, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I have just explained to you, I am not in the position to remember everything, it's been six years now since this thing happened.

MR BERGER: It's less than two years since you wrote these words, Mr Mthembu.   How is it that you have forgotten anything about this meeting?   Is it perhaps because it was at this meeting that the attack on Boipatong was discussed by Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Dlamini?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, if there was something that I knew, I would tell you, I would not hold it back, and I've just indicated to you that I cannot remember certain things, how then do you expect me to change, I just cannot bring my memory back.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, Mr Dlamini was the representative of the IFP in Vereeniging?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if the IFP members in Vereeniging had any problems, would he be the person that these problems would be reported to?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.   Yes?

MR BERGER: When Dlamini says that the problem must be reported to Buthelezi, page 8, paragraph 12 of your affidavit, which Buthelezi was he referring to?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: How many Buthelezis do you know, Mr Berger, because here they were talking about the IFP minister, Mr Mangesoto Buthelezi, really I don't know which Buthelezi you want me to talk about now?

MR BERGER: Well, amongst two of your applicants there are two people named Buthelezi, that's why I asked the question, but you've clarified it now that the Buthelezi referred to in paragraph 12 is Minister Mangesoto Buthelezi.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would tell you that, I would tell you that.

MR BERGER: So would it be correct then to say, Mr Mthembu, that the problems of the hostel residents in Kwamadala were known through the ranks of the IFP all the way up to Minister Mangesoto Buthelezi?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Would you please repeat, I did not get the question?

MR BERGER: Would it be correct to say that the problems of the IFP members in Kwamadala hostel were known through the ranks of the IFP all the way up to Minister Mangesoto Buthelezi?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I wouldn't know that, I wouldn't know whether they knew or not, but what I know is that Mr Dlamini was the IFP representative in the Vaal Triangle, I think he is the person who is most suitable to answer that question as to how many people knew and how many people did not know.

MR BERGER: Where is Mr Dlamini today?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: You are asking a wrong person, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Mr Themba Khosa also addressed that meeting on the Sunday.   You say in paragraph 13 on page 9
"He was also angry at the killing of his people and said if the people came and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them."
Do you remember that, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, I've just explained to you that I don't remember certain things, I cannot say I remember things, whereas I don't.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, is it your evidence that you have no recollection whatsoever of this meeting at all?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the meeting of... (intervention).

MR BERGER: The meeting on the Sunday, which was addressed by Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Dlamini, is it your evidence that you cannot recall anything about this meeting whatsoever?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think you don't understand, sir... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit, you refer to a meeting that was held on a Sunday just before the attack, the meeting which was addressed by Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Dlamini.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, but then I've just explained to Mr Berger that I don't know what they discussed, and therefore I'm not in the position to say what they said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you do recall that such a meeting did take place, what you cannot recall is what was said at that meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, sir.

MR BERGER: So you remember Mr Themba Khosa coming to the meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I do remember Mr Khosa attending the meeting.   I have just explained that Mr Khosa was not coming there for the first time, he used to come.

MR BERGER: So then if the attack was discussed at that meeting, you would not remember it, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would tell you if the attack was discussed at the meeting.

MR BERGER: And you are telling me that the attack was not discussed at that meeting, of that you are sure?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I am saying to you I do not remember what was said at the meeting, that's all.

MR BERGER: Surely, Mr Mthembu, if there was going to be an attack on Boipatong on the Wednesday, it would have been discussed with IFP leaders on the Sunday?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That's what you say, sir.

MR BERGER: And you cannot say if it was discussed or if it wasn't discussed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: You are the one telling me, what should I say?

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't help us, Mr Mthembu.   If you agree with him, say so, if you do not agree with him, say so.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't agree with what he is saying, he is just reading from the paper and speak to me as well as he wish, I don't agree with what he is saying.

MR BRINK: Mr Mthembu, you say you don't agree with him, why don't you agree with him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not agree with him because I have just said I don't remember what was said at the meeting, that is why I don't agree with him.

MR BRINK: So surely if you don't remember what was said, you can't agree or disagree with him, isn't that fair?   You can't remember?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

MR BERGER: So it's possible, Mr Mthembu, that an attack on Boipatong was discussed that Sunday with Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Dlamini, is it not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that, sir.

MR BERGER: I take it that you also won't be able to say what Mr Themba Khosa meant when he said you are supposed to fight back and kill them?   All right, you can't answer that one.   Let me ask you this, surely if there was going to be an attack on Boipatong, you, as an IFP leader, when you heard it on that Wednesday night, would have realised this could have terrible consequences, or it could have great consequences, this attack on Boipatong, did you realise that?

CHAIRPERSON: You're referring to the 17th?

MR BERGER: To the 17th, yes.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not have known at the time, sir, because it might as well happen that I too was angry at the time, I would not have known what consequences there would be, bad or good.

MR BERGER: Did it not occur to you, as a leader of the IFP, on that Wednesday night, to discuss with your other leaders whether or not this has the blessing of the senior structures of the IFP, for example the provincial structures or the national structures of the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, if a meeting is called here at the time during which the meeting was called, I think you too would not have had an opportunity to go and discuss with your colleagues with the discussions about that.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that, even if you wanted to discuss this with your colleagues, you would not have had the opportunity to do so?