Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: To put your evidence in a nutshell.  Now you arrived at that spot by truck you had obtained a lift there.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Was that the first time that you had get to that spot and been at that area?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I don't, could you maybe explain in the light of that reply your evidence at par.6 of your affidavit, page 2 of the new bundle "B".  You said, "the target was identified by myself".  Yes, on the 11th of November, my understanding is that was the first day, or the first time that you had gone to that particular area or that particular part of the road.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I am still searching for this.

MR PRIOR: Page 2 of bundle "B", par. 6 of his affidavit.  First line of that paragraph.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If you take it from my affidavit as the one who gave target, that's how we came about that, that I was the one who gave the, who ordered and gave which target has to be attacked.

MR PRIOR: It's just interesting, you'd get the instructions from Sibelo Palma, and Mphahlele.  You then go on to say "the target was identified by myself".  Do you mean from that, that you had at that stage identified the Herschel Road, that Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road as your target, your intended target for this operation?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As the Regional Commander we, I talk about myself, I was given powers, to put it, and further as a guerrilla army of which it is not a regular army, we were using initiative in deciding which attack needed to be carried out.  So, out of the data I had about the target which has to attacked then I shoot this one and I informed my Superior about which target I had to, I am going to attack and after the attack.

MR PRIOR: Before the attack you identified this particular piece of road as being the place where you were going to go and kill white people driving in vehicles, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that you then communicated that to your Superiors?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I communicated that there was going to be an attack.

MR PRIOR: Is that all you said?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You never gave any details of who you were going to attack, how you were going to attack and where you were going to attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I told that I, we were going to attack whites as they were the target.

MR PRIOR: And you got approval from Lethlapha Mphahlele to go and do that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Sorry, what did you say?

MR PRIOR: You obtained approval to go and do that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And then you launched this particular attack on the 19th of November 1992 ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: With your unit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Had you done any surveillance of that area before the 19th of November '92 when you actually carried out this attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was on that road before that attack.  I knew the area and I don't know whether I have my submission here to the TRC.  There is something I want to read.  If you can go through my application to the TRC ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Just refer us to which page of it in the bundle or paragraph.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That will be page 2.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's dealing about places.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I can see it.  It's paragraph 9(a)(iii).

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There is also mention of Lady Grey that places ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Yes, you say there Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg, Lady Grey, Zastron ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And Eikenhof.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: By Lady Grey and also I made this attack also, I never specify it was meant only to this attack.  We attacked cars even before this one in the road.

CHAIRPERSON: You say "we attacked cars before this one on that road".  When was that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know how many days before that one.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the result of the attacks?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We never heard anything in relation to question of a death or people who were wounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you damage the cars?  Did you hit them?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think one of them is going to be subject of hearing if I am not mistaken.

ADV SANDI: Which one do you have in mind,  Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you come again Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Which particular incident are you referring to, are you able to point out the ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: I am saying, Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken as he correctly put it, that it was not the first time, there is in this area, if I am not mistaken, Mr Chairman, which is going to the subject of hearing, unless I am mistaken, I am not sure.

MR PRIOR: Well, let him tell us about it, Mr Mbandazayo.

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was on that road.  "We attacked cars before this one on that road".  That's what he told us a moment ago.  We are asking him to tell us about it.

MR PRIOR: You started off saying a couple of days before this attack ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You attacked some other cars.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So tell us a bit more about that.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: What did you, who went with ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it was the same unit.  I was with it.  I think so.  I was with the same unit.  I am ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Did you have the same weapons?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There were then no R4.  Instead of a R4 there will be a stand submachine gun and there will be no pistols, instead there will be a, what we normally called molotovs, which were petrol bombs.  And others will be armed with knives.

MR PRIOR: Just to clear up this thing about pistols.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: A pistol?

MR PRIOR: I understood your previous evidence what, that you had revolvers, not pistols.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Can you say, what are you saying?

MR PRIOR: Well, which pistols did you use in this, in the first.  So there was one revolver and one pistol.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Sorry, for the correction of the record, it was, I think it was a .38 special, not a pistol.

MR PRIOR: Okay.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Only one and this stand submachine gun and petrol bombs, and I think others will be armed with knives.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a 9mm short?  Isn't that a pistol.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It is a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's what you said in your affidavit.  A 38 special and a 9mm short.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think he's answering about the other incident, what were they armed with.  Not in this one, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: So the pistols wasn't there, but the revolver was, is that what you're saying?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think so, yes I think so.

MR PRIOR: No, because when you said pistols in the plural I was puzzled, because I thought there was one .38 special, which is a revolver and one 9mm.

CHAIRPERSON: How many cars did you attack on this previous occasion?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: More than one.

CHAIRPERSON: How many more?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know how many, but I don't think it would be more than three.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you throw the molotovs?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.  I was there at the road instructing them of how to attack and how to lay ambush.

MR PRIOR: So was this a training operation, not an operation per se?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was an operation and partly a training exercise.

MR PRIOR: Where these reinforced molotovs or just ordinary molotovs?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: What happened?

MR PRIOR: Where these reinforced molotovs or just ordinary ones?  In other words did you wrap them around with extra nails and all that sort of things, or were they, just ordinary ones?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We're talking about petrol bombs?

MR PRIOR: Yes, molotovs.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They can't be wrapped with nails.

MR PRIOR: Some of the ones we've seen have had extra stuff wound round the side.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Then they were not reinforced, these ones.