Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: This is why I'm saying to you I could not hear her in the truck because it was noisy and we were using a gravel road.  The iron gates were making a noise.  This is why, when I got to Mbashe I went towards the back to close these iron gates and the truck, I could not hear anything if something were to come from behind me.  I had to close the gates because I could not hear anything because of the noise.

UNKNOWN: Just so there is no confusion at all Mr Thutha, at the time you were talking her to the fence, did you hear her say anything at all?

ZAMA THUTHA: I said that I did not hear anything but I did take note with my eyes, I could see that she was resisting.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR BOTMA: When you got to the spot in the forest where you were taking her to, what happened to her?  Did you return to the truck or did you leave somebody else behind with her, what was the situation?

ZAMA THUTHA: Thandekulo was already on the other side of the fence.  That place Thandekulo had chose.  We took her over the fence where Thandekulo was.  After we'd put her down he gave an order that my co-accused must go and check in the truck, he went.  I then followed because I was not familiar with the truck, I wanted to take note of what was going on.

MR BOTMA: At the time that you assisted your co-accused to take her from the truck, where was Thandekulo?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not say that I helped with her being taken out of the truck, I helped when she was taken over the fence.  I did not say that, you must not say things that I did not say.  I don't know what you are trying to do.

MR BOTMA: Where was Thandekulo at that stage?

UNKNOWN: To rephrase the question, where was Thandekulo when your colleague, Kulman was taking Donnie towards the fence and you were somewhere near there?

ZAMA THUTHA: He was in his van.  He left the van with two guns, went over the fence.  He'd already given an order that this girl must be taken over the fence.  When we took the girl over the fence Thandekulo was already there.  He was - I don't know, he was inspecting, Thandekulo was already inspecting the place to see where she could be put.

MR BOTMA: So Thandekulo went straight from his van towards the forest with two guns in his hands?

ZAMA THUTHA: The one was around his waist and the other one he had in his hand.

MR BOTMA: Was he ever nearby the truck before that time, before Mr Meyers' truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, when I went to close the iron gates from behind the truck Thandekulo did come close to the truck and he was looking at the person as well that we told him that we brought.  He did come to the truck in that way.  Whatever else he did I don't know because I was behind the truck at the back.

MR BOTMA: Was he inside the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: I had left the door open when I got off.  The truck is big and had milk tanks at the back.  You can't see the front when you are at the back because of the milk.  I couldn't exactly what Thandekulo was doing whilst I was closing the gates.  What I did was, I first closed the tanks with the milk and then I got off and closed the gates, therefore I could not see what he was doing at the front.

MR BOTMA: Was your co-accused carrying any firearm at the time that you taking Donnie to the spot where Thandekulo was waiting for you?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, Thandekulo had a gun but he didn't show anything that he was going to use it or anything like that, he had it because - I also had a gun like any soldier, he did have a gun.  I'm not saying that at that time he had it to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Thandekulo, you were asked I think about Kulman.

ZAMA THUTHA: I heard of Thandekulo not Kulman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Kulman have a gun with him?

ZAMA THUTHA: When exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were taking the girl over the fence?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please remember my co-accused, by the time I got into the truck had his own gun as he said.  Nobody took that gun from him, I did not see anyone taking it.  I did not take note whether he had the gun with him when he was talking out the girl from the truck.  Maybe he had it with him but he didn't have it in his hand.

MR BOTMA: When - after you took the girl to Thandekulo you went back towards the truck on the instructions from Thandekulo and then you heard the firearm shots, did you realise that at that point in time he was shooting Donnie?

ZAMA THUTHA: We knew that he was shooting the girl because there was no monkey or bird there, he could not shoot in the air either because we didn't have many bullets, he could not just waste the bullets like that.

MR BOTMA: Did you reconcile yourself with the fact that he shot and killed Donnie at that stage?

ZAMA THUTHA: Who me or himself?

MR BOTMA: Did you reconcile yourself with the fact that he shot and killed her?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please explain, elaborate on your question, I'm not following it.  I don't understand his question well.

MR BOTMA: When you realised that he shot and killed Donnie, did you have any problems with that, did you regard it as being what happens ...[indistinct] the whole procedure and the whole operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't know what he got from Donnie that led him to kill her.  I think that the reason, there is a reason why he shot Donnie or he killed Donnie, he must have found something.  You don't just kill people like that, something must have led him to do it.  That is what I think.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I don't think you get the question correctly, I don't - since the answer.  Can I maybe assist and simplify, maybe the reconcile will reflect as the interpretation was not ...
	You're being asked, as you heard Thandekulo shooting, it is clear that you the one, you did not shoot at that time  The families representative is asking if, after you realised that Donnie had been shot, did you reconcile yourself with that?

ZAMA THUTHA: It is painful for somebody to die, whoever everybody dies for a reason.  I cannot take, I cannot personalise that reason.

INTERPRETER: The applicant's answer is not clear.

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't want to say it was - I felt hurt, it caused pain to me, however there is nothing that I could do about it, about her dying.

CHAIRPERSON: What you did say just before that - as I made a note of it, was: "You don't just kill people like that, there must have been some reason for him doing it".  Is that what you felt?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I did say that.  Thandekulo was the commander, he knew a lot, he's the one who knew a lot.  He therefore could reach his own conclusions or even conclude for us.  He did not give me reasons after he had killed, as to why he did that.  He is the one who knows.

MR BOTMA: If he instructed you to kill her, would you have killed her?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.  I can't disobey an order because everything that I did, killing Mike Meyers, if I had not killed Mike Meyers I think that there could have been a possibility that I'd die as well.  He didn't have to run away and he got out of the car from my side.

MR BOTMA: I'm referring to the killing Donnie Meyers, would you have killed her if instructed to do so by Thandekulo or requested to do so?

ZAMA THUTHA: I said yes, I wouldn't defy an order.

MR BOTMA: When you realised that he killed her did you have any problem with the fact that he killed her?  I'm referring to Thandekulo.

ZAMA THUTHA: As I have already said, a person's death is a painful thing.  I don't just wish that somebody would die, however if you oppress, if one oppresses another person in their own land then I hope, I wish that they would die, not just any person.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be much longer?

MR BOTMA: I'm almost finished, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, just go ahead and finish.

MR BOTMA: Was she wearing a jersey on that day?  I'm referring to Donnie now.

ZAMA THUTHA: It was very hot that day, she was wearing a shirt, had jeans on, she was wearing training shoes, white training shoes.