Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-20

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: I want this to be clear, that is if we go to elections, okay, maybe it might seem as if - I want to say, a leader who knows that he is for the right cause, shouldn't counter democratic elections, something which is there, which is (indistinct) in the policies and the constitution of the organisation.
	We were putting the organisation first and then the leaders come second.  That is why it is difficult for me to be against the ANC as such because I know the ANC is, the ANC's objectives are my objectives and they have always been my objectives.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Now Mr Dyasophu, you have read the affidavit of the applicants and you have heard Mr Matshaya giving evidence, asking for amnesty.
	What is your attitude regarding the application for amnesty?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: At the beginning you know, I came here really to reconcile with these people and I still want to reconcile with them, because what I know is that they didn't do this out of their own will and I proved that.
	Now, but the way Matshaya puts it, sometimes leaves me wondering whether he still regards me as an enemy, I think he still has some room of, because he still believes that he was justified to kill, to kill Sipho and some of his statements are untrue.  That is why sometimes I begin to doubt whether I should forgive, I mean should accept his giving amnesty, really, because some of the things that he says ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better get something clear in your head, it is not for you to grant him amnesty.  Secondly, if there are issues that you disagree with, let us get on with that.

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Okay.  What I am saying is that having heard his statement and having read his affidavit, I think I disagree with certain, first of all he calls us Askaris.  Well, I say that I disagree with that.
	My proof is that Askaris, this is something historical, Askaris were given hand shakes, golden hand shakes.  Now, I, I never got any hand shake.  Well, if I am an Askari, why didn't I get a hand shake, that money?
	Secondly, he says okay, say that how could it happen that I be with the, still join the SANDF through the ANC channels if I am an Askari.
	Thirdly, really, I didn't have, what would move me to be, to work for the Boers really.  Okay, people who work for the Boers, end up having money.  Some join under threat and stress and pain and others join for money, but at the end of the day, they all get money, but I would like you to go to my home, (indistinct), my mother died poor, my father died poor.  After this death of Sipho, I am homeless.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, thank you.  Are you, you said you want to give evidence in order to clear out some of the statements made by Mr Matshaya during the time he was giving evidence and you have cleared some of them.
	Is there any other statement that was made by him, which you disagree with?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, another thing is this one of Hlongwane.  Recog, we phoned Recog, but Hlongwane was not there.  When Hlongwane came back home, fortunately or unfortunately I was not in Johannesburg, I was in Cape Town that time, trying to deal with this case of Sipho Phungulua.
	Now, when he came there, these other guys I was with, that is Twala and others, around Johannesburg, they tried to okay, to introduce him to Recog, but he said no Recog is too lenient to the ANC, he is going to form his own organisation and that he did.
	I want you to believe that I have got nothing to do with Hlongwane, Recog had nothing to do with Hlongwane and actually Hlongwane doesn't know me personally.  I never met him, maybe I am lucky.
	When we were in Quattro, he was in Quattro, but in Quattro  inmates don't see each other.  If you are in this room, you don't see people in that other room, and so it so happened that while he was in Quattro, I was in another cell.
	And now here back home, when he was in Johannesburg, I was in Cape Town at that time, and after that when I came back from Cape Town to Johannesburg, he was in Durban and ever since he has been, so he said that we are lenient towards the ANC, we still have some sentiments for the ANC and yet he would like to curse, so we said, no, no, this is not the way.

MR MAPOMA: So if I get your explanation well, you are saying you were not in the same group as Hlongwane, but you were in the group with Twala?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, that is right.

ADV GCABASHE: And these groups were associated one way or the other?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: No, we were not associated.

ADV GCABASHE: There was some relationship, this is what I mean by association?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: That is why I say there was no relationship between Hlongwane's group and our group.

MR MAPOMA: Is there any other thing that you want to contest on what he said, or any other evidence that you would like to give relating to their application for amnesty particularly?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: All I can say, it is up to them.  You see, this is something that comes from inside, somebody might come at this time, occasion in history and say I am asking for amnesty and well, it is a right time, but I think we should help each other here.
	He should help me, I should help him.  I would like, there is another thing I would like to highlight, what happened is that I really wanted to find out whether these guys are doing this out of their own, or was it something from somebody else.  What I did was that I found out no, these people were not enemies, my enemies, were not after me.
	Actually what I found is that Matshaya did not know me, Matshaya one day I went to his place in Sprick Street, he didn't know me.  When I arrived there, Matshaya didn't, he turned around, he greeted us and I said this is Matshaya, let me find out now whether this Matshaya is going to remember me, but I found out that no, Matshaya doesn't recognise me.
	Matshaya, I want to tell you that we grew up together, from time to time I would see you around in the location.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dyasophu, you can do that outside the hearing if you want to make friends with Mr Matshaya.

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other issues that you have in dispute with his evidence?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: I would like to differ during this incident of the killing of Sipho, because Matshaya wants to give us the impression that he was also practically there, in the planning and all these things, he gives the impression that he was always there, but I would like to say that I differ with him, because on that day, he was called.   He was called by this Kheza Mbethi, this is where really I find this, I become frustrated now because I think they would mention somehow ...

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Mr Dyasophu, can I be clear, do you actually know that he was called by someone, he was not involved in the planning of this act?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: I have evidence in the sense that we were inside the ANC offices, and he was called.  He came there and he talked to Kheza Mbethi and Kheza Mbethi kept referring to us, and he kept looking at us, so you could see that these people were talking about us, and thereafter, soon after, he left.
	One other thing that I find very much frustrating is that there is no mention of people, the whole thing is just so abstract, I don't like this.  It is so abstract, we don't, no name is mentioned that a certain comrade Commander so and so, sent me to do this and this.
	It is just generalisation that the command, the command.  This is where really I have a problem with his statement.  Actually that is all I can say.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Thank you Chairman, no further questions.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: There doesn't seem to be any real dispute between the evidence of the applicant and what the witness', have you got any questions?