Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I am saying that the acts of my colleagues here, as the general sales tax was ending, VAT being introduced, there was a suggestion that was not well understood as to how this VAT was going to function and it was proposed that a consumer boycott takes place by the civic of Katlehong.  As this was being negotiated around the VAT, this boycott suggested that people should not buy from Germiston shops but should support the people in the township.
	Our companions, colleagues, they were some of the people who took this consumer boycott story further and made it succeed by discarding goods or groceries of people who had bought from Germiston.  They confiscated some of these.  At that time, one of the people who is asking for amnesty here is the one who opened a  Spaza shop, making use of some of the things that were confiscated from people.  
	My question was

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, would you please tell us about the events dealing with the killing of the 11 people in Katlehong on the 7th December, that's what we want to hear.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I have pointed it out sir, that myself being Sonti, I was not there in the veld where these people were killed.  I have no knowledge therefore what transpired there.  What I know, I came across some of the people who are applying for amnesty coming back from the scene.

MR MADASA: Sorry Mr Chair, may I, just one question?  Mr Sonti, you remember you told us that before Bulelwa's death you were walking together?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Do you relate the fact of her death with the fact that you were walking together?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Bulelwa died after we had parted.

MR MADASA: Do you relate the fact that before she died, you were seen with her?  Do you relate that with the fact that she was eventually killed?  In other words, do you suspect that the people who killed her, did so because they saw her with you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I think that may have been the case sir and our relationship from 1989.

MR MADASA: No further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Sonti, let's start on the formation of the self defence units.  Were you at Moleleki when the self defence units were formed?  Moleleki section?
[intervention]
[no English translation]

MR MAPOMA: of which you were a member was formed in 1992, were you at Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I was not yet at Moleleki.  I was still [inaudible] 5, being a member of the self defence unit there.

MR MAPOMA: Now when the self defence unit at Moleleki was formed, the ANC was part and parcel of the community there, Motlokwa said that.  Do you dispute that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, during the formation stage of the self defence unit, the ANC, some of the members of the ANC joined the self defence unit, you don't dispute that too?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when the self defence unit was operating, the one you were a member, whom did you perceive as an enemy of the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, let me put it this way without hesitation.  In the area where I was, there were ANC members mainly and the enemy therefore was Inkatha and amongst us there were certain people who were not in favour of the ANC, who did not support the ANC.  There were gangsters among us.

MR MAPOMA: Do I understand correctly when I say the self defence units were formed through the blessings of the ANC, in order to protect the defenceless community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Against who?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As the one of the accused in the case that is accused number 7, ourselves being ANC members, it was suggested that we protect ourselves in areas where we resided and this was an order that came from Chris Hani, if I am not mistaken, that there was not enough help from the Police and therefore the community had to protect themselves therefore the self defence units came into being.

CHAIRPERSON: You were going to protect the community against who?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The community was not protected sir at the time of violence.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] the community was not protected.  What I want to know is against whom were you were going to protect the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Under the ANC sir we were protecting the community under the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Against whom?  Who was attacking the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I had already indicated who the enemy was.  The ANC enemy was Inkatha.  Together with the third force.

MR MAPOMA: Now the Internal Stability Unit, how did you categorise it?  Did you perceive the ISU as also part of the enemy?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, we saw them as part of the enemy sir.  In events or incidents that happened in [inaudible] in general, they too were involved.

MR MAPOMA: Now the Youth Wing of the African National Congress of which you were operating under, did you perceive it also as part of the enemy?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: First, they were not part of the enemy but as time went on it transpired that they no longer supported the self defence unit.

MR MAPOMA: They no longer supported the defence unit because they parted away from the defence unit, is that so?  Is that what you're saying?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you understand that the ANC Youth League was a political organisation, being a wing of the African National Congress?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You also understand that the ANC Youth League had a right to exist in the community as part - as a political organisation catering for the youth of the ANC?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you had a problem with the ANC Youth League, were you having a problem with the ANC Youth League as an organisation or members of the ANC Youth League as individual members?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The problem sir, as I have explained, problems that we experienced were problems that were caused by the ANC Youth League as a whole.

MR MAPOMA: Now, I take it that in Moleleki Section there was an executive of the ANC Youth League, is that not correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And during the time when some members of the ANC Youth League were participating in your SDU, they were participating as individual members of the ANC Youth League.  In other words, the SDU did not swallow in the ANC Youth League?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, let me put it this way.  The ANC Youth League, people that I remember there were around 10, they were under the self defence unit.

MR MAPOMA: Now what I'm saying - what I'm saying to you Mr Sonti is that the ANC Youth League was an independent entity, a political structure which was there in the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you had some members of that independent political structure participating in your SDU, before they left you, is that not correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We were told by Mr Mkloka that there are members of the ANC Youth League who remained with the SDU, is that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a fact that you were not so much against the ANC Youth League but you were against what you considered to be, the criminal activities of the ANC Youth League members?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you had a problem with the criminal activities of some members of the ANC Youth League, did you approach the leadership of the ANC Youth League in the community?

CHAIRPERSON: We heard that yesterday.  Were we not told that the civic was approached at some point?