Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, Comrade Motepa used to stay in Ledig.   Comrade Sepiwe is a person to Motepa, Comrade Phute used to visit Ledig, and together with Comrade Kenneth used to visit Ledig.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Turn to your application, paginated page 5, that is the hand-written part, Mr Chairman and members of the committee.   Before I get into it, because it is not signed, is this what you submitted to the Truth Commission, is that your handwriting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And this is what you wrote yourself?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.   Now let's have a look at paragraph 1 under 10(a), I'm going to be jumping around, but I will guide you, it reads
"The Inkatha warlords were killing our people without any reasons."
Do you see that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.   Then you go down to the last paragraph, same page, and the paragraph reads
"Therefore, the solution to this problem was to retaliate against these attacks."

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be correct to state that your wanting to get arms to go back home was more based on retaliation rather than advancing the freedom struggle?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It was based on both, they were both at the same power, it was both for retaliation and defence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you were going to shoot the Inkatha warlords, to kill them in actual fact, am I correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Despite the fact that your unit was a defence unit?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Defending can be done in different ways.   It does not necessarily mean that when you defend yourself, you should wait for somebody to attack you, it doesn't always have to be a counter-attack.   You could counter the attack, not sit and wait.   In that meeting we agreed that should we attack the Nancefield Hostel, because it was highly volatile at that time, then they would defend themselves rather than going out and attacking, rather than going to attack the trains, they will sit back and try and defend themselves.   We were trying to change their focus from attacking, but rather to defending themselves.   That is another strategy that we were looking at.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ross, the Inkatha violence, was it not concentrated at the Meadowlands Hostel?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It was all over Soweto.   It was only in Mshlope even Nancefield Hostel there was high violence in there.   The people in the hostel they were worse, because they would put red headbands to show that they are Inkatha members.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was the base of Inkatha warlords not Ndube Hostel?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: As I have already said, we had agreed that all these hostels that were troublesome were to be targeted.   If you can look at the Diepkloof hostels, there were no such political violence and they never attacked our communities, but most hostels in Soweto were full of Inkatha members who were very active.   Therefore, I cannot just say that it was only the Ndube Hostel that was active, it was almost all hostels that were full of Inkatha members.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Page 7, the last paragraph, I'll read for convenience
"We therefore respected his idea..."
that is the comrade who was giving you a briefing:-
"...and also interpreted it as being part of the ANC's plan to answering to the maiming and killing of our people."
Was this an ANC plan, or the street defence units' plan?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We just interpreted it as part of the ANC plan, it's just our simple interpretation.   This gentleman approached us and he's a symbol of ANC, because he's a trained cadre of the ANC, thus our interpretation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know the actual ANC plan?   To be fair to you, if you interpret something as meaning something else, it implies that you know that other something else, am I right?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I cannot say I knew, but I note(?) that the ANC would just sit back and watch people being killed in the way that they were being killed, they wouldn't just sit back and do nothing about.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ross, I want to refer you to the pages, the judgment of the Court, but perhaps we may shorten this in this fashion, I asked you about what you said in the record, that you were going to Sun City to gamble, and you say you told the Court a lie, am I correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I said I lied.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.   Will I be correct then to state that whatever follows which you said in court was all lies, except that you are Ambrose Ross of course?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The fact that Comrade Kenneth was there was not a lie, so therefore I cannot just say that everything is a lie thereafter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All right, I will guide you.   When you told the Court that you did not know what was going to be done there, was that a lie?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, I knew exactly what was happening.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And when you told the Court that when they came back, you asked them innocently as to what was happening in the police station, that was a lie?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, it was a lie.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And when you told the Court that you did not enter the police station, you were sitting in the car, that was another lie?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that was a lie as well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan, do you have any re-examination?

MR MULLIGAN: No, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLIGAN

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.   There's just one aspect which I would like to clarify.   You say that the aim of attacking this particular police station was to boost the morale of the people who were resisting the Bophuthatswana government, is that correct, in Ledig.   How did you envisage that these people would know that the police station had been attacked by ANC people, how would it have boosted their morale, because the plan was to go and get the arms and get out with the arms, how would the people have known that it was an ANC attack and perhaps that would have boosted their morale?   It could easily have been just an ordinary robbery or could have been done by ordinary criminals, how would the people in Ledig have known that it was an ANC strategy?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, they would not have a way to know, but the mere fact that the Ledig policemen were attacked, the mere fact that the Ledig police station was attacked, that in itself would be a morale booster, because the Bophuthatswana BOP used to torture the people of Ledig.  I don't know as to whether I answered your question.

ADV SIGODI: Ja.  That is all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.   Mr Ross, who recruited you for this street committee, this SDU, this street defence unit?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It is out of my own that I entered that street defence unit.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you get to know about it?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: As I explained, that it used to happen in our community, we used to know that meetings of the street defence unit used to be held at that particular school, and it was easy for me to go and attend that meeting, and as a former student I knew that there are meetings of the street defence units.

ADV BOSMAN: Were these meetings then open to any member of the community?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, they were open meetings which were attended by people who were interested to attend those meetings.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have to do anything to become a member of the SDU?