Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MS MKHIZE: When looking back now - you have mentioned that your youth formation was formed with good intentions but in the process you got involved in the killings, the assaults and the torture of other people so my question is really - I'm trying to find out from you, do you think the club members or the group, the youth group which came together at that time, would you have done any of those things without the influence of  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi?

MR NTOMBENI: I don't think we would have done that without her instructions.

MS MKHIZE: Can you tell us the reasons why you think the group on it's own wouldn't have done any of those things?

MR NTOMBENI: It's because we were a group, we were staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's place and earlier on when we were with SOWYC, our Chairman used to show us the right way to conduct ourselves.  He use to tell us the do's and the don'ts up till such time that there were cracks within the youth league.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe putting it differently, in all these - I don't want to say human rights, the acts like the killings, the torture that you are talking about, your group members engaged on them after being instructed and there was nothing which was done by any of the group members on your own.

MR NTOMBENI: No, I'm not saying that they never used to anything on their own, I don't know whether there was anything they did on their own or there wasn't.

DR BORAINE: Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you know Jabu Sithole?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did he also stay at Mrs Mandela's home?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you know him by a different name?  Javis?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I used to call him Javis.

YASMINE SOOKA: Was he known to Mrs Mandela?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Was he a member of the football club?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, he was a member but he was not playing football or soccer.

YASMINE SOOKA: What was he doing with the club then?

MR NTOMBENI: No, he would just come and go with us wherever we went and he used to go and watch us playing football.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you know Mr Madonsela?

MR NTOMBENI: No, I don't.

YASMINE SOOKA: You used the name Magojo, was that person known to you as Wilson Sebuwani?

MR NTOMBENI: Wilson Sebilwane.

YASMINE SOOKA: Magojo?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: He's here?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, he is here.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Doctor Mgojo?

KHOZA MGOJO: I just want to find out what your surname is, whether it's Zulu B as it's not Zulu A, are you Ntombeni or Ntumbeni?

MR NTOMBENI: I'm Ntombeni, not Ntumbeni.

KHOZA MGOJO: There's a lot that you have seen happening to other people and this nearly happened to you as well, now I've got a problem because I keep on asking myself that you've seen all the atrocities taking place like the torture, why is it that you never reported all these things to the police?

MR NTOMBENI: I wasn't going to be able to report this matter to the police because I was staying at Mrs Mandela's place and I only went out when I was sent on specific errands.  I only went out when I went to buy bread or other errands that I was sent on.

KHOZA MGOJO: At the time that you were staying at Mrs Mandela's house, did you have problems or were you scared of the police?

MR NTOMBENI: I did not trust the police, I did not particularly like them.

KHOZA MGOJO: There's something that I don't understand in your statement and that is page 4 of your statement, you said at the time that you were assaulted at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's place you never went back to your respective homes after the assault but you stayed because you were scared that they were going to discover at your places that you had been assaulted.

MR NTOMBENI: No, not that we were scared but we were specifically instructed to remain in the yard until such time that our wounds had healed, the people who assaulted us gave us that instruction.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know about that instruction or did she issue the instruction?

MR NTOMBENI: I'm not aware as to whether she knew.

KHOZA MGOJO: Is it possible that she didn't know that you were ordered to stay?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, it is.

DR BORAINE: Right, Mr Ntombeni, thank you very much for appearing before the Commission, you may stand down now, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

DR BORAINE: This session is adjourned ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: I don't believe this.

MR VALLY: I'm afraid  you'll have to.  Could we take Doctor Klapp before we have lunch, she's not going to be long I believe?

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] it's a matter of minutes we can take her, if it's not and it's more than that - unfortunately both the Archbishop and myself have an important engagement which we
have to honour.

MR VALLY: I can see on my part it's a matter of minutes, I'm not sure about my learned friends.

DR BORAINE: I call Doctor Patricia Klapp.  Welcome Doctor Klapp, we are going to try and finish this before lunch but we are going to have to be pretty tight and I'm dependent not only on myself but on my colleagues in the legal fraternity but welcome, we are glad to see you and Miss Sooka will administer the oath.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you state your full names for the record please?

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: Patricia Jane Klapp.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you have any objection to taking the oath.

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, you may be seated.

DR BORAINE: Mr Vally, are you leading the witness?

MR VALLY: I am.

DR BORAINE: Please proceed.

MR VALLY: Doctor Klapp, thank you very much for coming at such short notice.  Firstly, briefly tell us what your profession is.

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: I'm forensic pathologist, a senior State pathologist at both the Johannesburg, the Diepkloof and the Roodepoort Government Mortuaries, I'm also Senior Lecturer in Forensic Pathology at the University of the Witwatersrand.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much.  Without much further ado let's just go to the issue which we've called you for.  You conducted the post-mortem on Mr Stompie Sepei?

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you briefly tell us in lay persons language what wounds you found on the corpse of Mr Stompie Sepei?

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: Yes, I have the report in front of me but in summary I gave the cause of death as: Penetrating Incised Wounds of his Neck - Subcutaneous Contusion.

MR VALLY: Now the first part, when you say Penetrating wounds etc., is that stab wounds?

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: Yes, we don't use the word: "stab" because "stab" would actually imply a mechanism of production but they are cut and they go in.

MR VALLY: All right, can you just - if you don't mind, either on the lady next to you or on yourself, point out where were these incised wounds as you call them?

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: There were two penetrating incised wounds over the right of the neck, over what we call the mastoid process, it's that bony petruberence behind the right ear, they measured 1.4cm and 1.6cm and were closely situated to each other.
 There was a third wound over the left side of the neck - did you want me to demonstrate it?

MR VALLY: Yes please.

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: The two on the right side of the neck - if you could possibly turn the head, were behind the right ear and the one over the left side of the neck was in this region here and that was a larger wound that measured 4cm.

MR VALLY: Would that be a wound where - again I use lay person's language, someone was cutting rather than stabbing?

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: No, stab is correct, what we do have is a penetrating incised wound - if I used the word: "stab", I'm implying a mechanism of production, if you were to come to me and indicate that the person has fallen onto a sharp object then there hasn't been a "stab".

MR VALLY: I see.