Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

H J P BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, when it was with regard to intelligence, with regard to Col Taylor's unit, any information that they would need for their functioning, it would be conveyed directly to him.  I may just mention that from 1983 to approximately 1990 with the establishment of the askari unit, Taylor was also stationed at the offices in Durban.  When he left for the Askari place in Camperdown, he worked away from the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, what came about that you should report to Steyn?

H J P BOTHA: The cases, and this was Gen Steyn's unique style, but not only I reported directly to him, the chiefs of other units within the Security Branch station in Durban.  In all cases he maintained a hands-on approach.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's carry on from there.

MS POSWA: Thank you. Can we go back now to the recruitment of Mr Ndaba?  Now you say that Mr Ndaba was subsequently promoted to the position of a Commander in Swaziland.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he was an Acting Commander.

MS POSWA: He was an Acting Commander.  Thank you.  Now Mr Botha, can you explain something here to me?  Mr Ndaba was promoted and at that point he was already an informer, your informer?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MS POSWA: He had given you information, prey tell, what type of information had he given you at this stage?

H J P BOTHA: His information was of a dual nature, firstly of a tactical nature and secondly of a strategic nature.

MS POSWA: Could you please explain in more simple terms?

H J P BOTHA: The tactical information was not as complete as that which we received from other informers within the same machinery but it dealt with basically how many terrorists had come to Swaziland via Mozambique whilst the strategic component was more directly aimed at the establishment of a structure which was at that stage not know to us within the RSA namely the Mass Democratic Movement, the MDM.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that Ndaba was promoted to the rank of Acting Commander, do you mean by the ANC?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.  The Commanding Officer of the Natal machinery, Tami Zulu was a suspect with the ANC and he was taken away to Lusaka on the allegation that he was working for the Security Forces and he was one of many who was taken away in this way.

CHAIRPERSON: So the kinds of information he gave you were two, tactical and strategic?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS POSWA: And you said that this was very vital information?

H J P BOTHA: Well, all information which we gathered was important for us.

MS POSWA: Well you said that his information was more important than the other information you received from the other informers, did you not?

H J P BOTHA: No.  No, that's not what I said.

MS POSWA: Can you please restate that, I'm sorry.

H J P BOTHA: I said that his tactical information was not as comprehensive as that which we got from other informers, in other words, the man in a, somebody in a commanding position, he knew who was going to infiltrate, what their names were etc.  The specific tactical information was who was responsible for crossing the border, who was conveying them, where they were going to in Durban and in those cases, we infiltrated throughout the structure so we could act in a preventative way.

MS POSWA: Thank you.  You then go on to say that a possibility of elimination came into play.  Who, by whom  would this elimination be effected?

CHAIRPERSON: The elimination of whom?

MS POSWA: Of Mr Ndaba.

H J P BOTHA: In the formulating of the plan that there had to be an elimination, in my view I thought that I and my members would actually carry it out.

MR LAX: I don't think you understand the question.

MS POSWA: Can I just?  Okay.  You said that Mr Ndaba is still in Swaziland.  He has now been promoted to the position of Acting Commander and there are all these problems with people suspected of being informers within the ANC.  Now you said that there could be a possibility of elimination of Ndaba.

H J P BOTHA: Sorry I misunderstood you.  I thought you referred to the final action.  There was a structure in existence in the Security Branch which allowed several regions to meet and to gather information and to share information.  We were tasked specifically with relation to Swaziland as far as it related to the Natal machinery.  The division, Eastern Transvaal, they were tasked with seeing to the Transvaal machinery and Special Operations and also the RPMC, who operated globally over these two structures.  We shared information with each other and there was a target list, which we compiled and which we prioritised people for elimination outside the borders of the country and if you were a Commanding Officer you were automatically placed on that list for elimination and at any opportunity where such a situation arose, he could be eliminated and the same procedure was followed to protect informers from each other.  Without focusing attention on a specific person, the fact that he was an informer you would rather make an alternative plan to get him out of the structure because he might become the elimination target of the National Intelligence, South African Defence Force, or the Security Branch of the Eastern Transvaal.

MS POSWA: Okay.  So now you say that, so that is when you then decided that maybe he should, that is when you arranged the deportation out of, from Swaziland?

H J P BOTHA: No, I didn't arrange the deportation.  I made a suggestion to him that he should arrange to be withdrawn.

MS POSWA: So he went away to Zambia?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MS POSWA: You had no contact with him there?

H J P BOTHA: No, no contact.

MS POSWA: Until he came back to South Africa in 1990?

H J P BOTHA: In 1990.

MS POSWA: So now when, so he came back to South Africa and he contacted you, or you contacted him?

H J P BOTHA: He contacted me.

MS POSWA: How did he know how to contact you?

H J P BOTHA: When we handled him in Swaziland, certain contact numbers were exchanged and he reacted to those numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was he away for, in Zambia?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, from about the end of 88 to approximately 6 or 7 weeks before the date of his arrest in 1990, but I believe that he infiltrated in January 1990.

MS POSWA: And what did he say when he contacted you?

H J P BOTHA: He said that he was within the RSA and we arranged a meeting.  I saw him and he told me that he'd infiltrated the country, when he'd infiltrated, that he was part of a structure.

MS POSWA: Yes, thank you, I've got that.  I'd like to know where did you meet with Mr Ndaba, your first meeting?

H J P BOTHA: It was at one of our safe places.

MS POSWA: Where's that?

H J P BOTHA: In Durban.

MS POSWA: you cannot give us an address?

H J P BOTHA: No, in this case I can't because it might very well still be in use.

MS POSWA: Okay.  Now Mr botha, you were involved in underground operations, right?  What was your strategy?  How was the information, because from this information you say that Mr Ndaba gave you, it seems to me to be so detailed and so complete that I must admit I'm a lay person in military strategy, but I do not understand how one could have known so much about operations.  Did you believe him when he gave you this volume of information?

H J P BOTHA: On the contrary Chairperson, Charles actually gave me very little at our meetings where I debriefed him.  The total volume and extent of Operation Vula only became known after we'd actually spent quite some time together after the 6th and 7th of July.