Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman what I am putting to the witness is why these witnesses would not have mentioned it or would not have seen this incident. That is what I am putting to the witness. I am not saying that these witnesses denied having seen this. I am putting to this witness that these three witnesses have not mentioned this incident. Mr von Eggedy makes mention of shots that was fired from in front of him towards the ground. He does not make mention of shots emanating from amongst the members of the crowd in the direction where you and Mr Zuma was positioned. Can you advance any reason why there would be this difference in the evidence?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think in all this evidence each and every individual (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just say that again? Each and everything is what?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Individual.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Will say what he have seen not what he have heard he have been told by another person. Then he in short you want me to tell you about other people what they have seen. No I am not them I am Eddie I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Try to explain.

MR DORFLING: Mr Khumalo the question simply whether you could advance any reason why those people would not have seen such an incident where gunfire was emanating from the crowd in the direction of where you and Mr Zuma was positioned at the corners of King George and de Villiers close to Jabu's Bakery?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think here if you can ask me about Zuma it is something else but not with somebody else which I have never seen. I have never seen that Eggedy. I have never seen Llale. I was not with them. How can I talk for them which I didn't see them? If I was with them it was something else.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you can take it much further.

MR DORFLING: I would leave it at that for argument Mr Chairman. As far as the evidence of Mr Zuma is concerned in this regard Mr Khumalo I want to put it to you that your evidence of what transpired at that corner and that of Mr Mondli Zuma in that regard was substantially different to each other. There was various substantial contradictions in the evidence. Can you advance any reason why that would have happened?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think I will answer that one.

MR DORFLING: Please answer that.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No put it straight which facts?

MR DORFLING: There was a difference in your evidence as to where this attacker advancing from Wanderer Street was positioned. One of you were of the view that the attacker was amongst the crowd and the other one put him to the front and to the side of the crowd. That was the one bit of evidence that was different, substantially different. Would you like to comment?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes I would like to comment. Are you talking about an AK or are you talking about a pistol? That person who was wearing a red T-shirt.

MR DORFLING: I am talking about the person you alleged were firing shots in your direction when you were positioned at the corners close to Jabu's Bakery.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think I am the one who have seen that person. I am the one who have told Mondli to move. It is not Mondli that told me to move.

MR DORFLING: Your evidence contradicted each other as to the number of shots fired by you. Have you got any explanation for that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes I have. I think if you were once in a combat situation you will understand that. But if you were not you won't be able to understand that. Because you are too academical. That thing was not academical.

MR DORFLING: I want to move to the evidence of Mr von Eggedy. Mr von Eggedy, sorry Mr Stevens. Mr Stevens observed a person amongst the ANC security guard brandishing an AK47 or an automatic assault rifle as he called it with which he fired certain shots at the crowd. Are we ad idem that you were the only person on that corner carrying an AK47?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now can I read Mr Stevens' evidence to you and ask your response?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I will be very much pleased.

MR DORFLING: I am reading from page 2505 of the record Mr Chair from line 18 onwards. Mr Stevens describes how he observed the person standing on that corner having an AK47 in his possession and how he fired at the crowd. And he says the following

MR DORFLING: "Now what happened there?

WITNESS: This person was firing with an AK.

MR DORFLING: 		Did you notice anything else?

WITNESS: Yes then well like I said people were hiding behind the cars on the corner there. Other people had run around the side into de Villiers Street, ran down de Villiers Street and then he reloaded. That is when I ran outside the shop because I could not believe that the policeman was standing next to him and he did not stop him or do anything and I ran to the corner and I shouted at.

MR DORFLING: 		And you shouted at?

WITNESS: And I shouted at the policeman or I just shouted in that direction that they must stop because I could not believe it was happening.

MR DORFLING: 		To which corner did you run?

WITNESS: That was on the east side of Small Street Mall.

MR DORFLING: 		Did you cross Plein Street?

WITNESS: No not at all."

MR DORFLING: He at a later stage again describes the same incident and he does it in the following fashion. And he describes how the marchers are approaching and at page 2531 from line 7 onwards he says the following: -

MR DORFLING: "And as they had come this distance suddenly the guard opened fire on them. I would ja within 5 metres the guard opened up as they crossed de Villiers the guard opened up fire."

MR DORFLING: Mr Stevens was explaining that as the marchers came down about five metres into King George Street from the intersection then this guard started opening fire.

MR DORFLING: "You say within 5 metres as they got into King George about 5 metres?

WITNESS: Ja about 5. That he started shooting. That I personally saw him started shooting because I remember that they got up to the car and the car was about 5 metres say 10 metres it is difficult to judge from that from where I was but it was round about there that he started. That he opened up fire.

MR DORFLING: 		And he was shooting on automatic you say? Was he spraying the crowd?

WITNESS: No, no he was like I said he had short bursts. It was tr, tr like that, short bursts.

MR DORFLING: 		Could you see at what part of the crowd he was shooting?

WITNESS: I would say more to the west side of the half side of the road.

MR DORFLING: 		And he emptied an entire magazine on the crowd?

WITNESS: Well he reloaded.

MR DORFLING: Well if you can, I do not know if you can but if you can how many bursts were there before he had to reload? Or if you cannot say that - for how long did he shoot before he had to reload?

MR DORFLING: And the response of Mr Stevens: -

MR DORFLING: "Quite a while. I cannot say exactly probably ...

MR DORFLING: 		And you say it was for quite a while?

WITNESS: Ja a good 20 seconds, 15.

MR DORFLING: 		And throughout that time the policeman just stood next to him and did nothing?

WITNESS: Nothing."

MR DORFLING: That was the evidence of Mr Stevens. Are you saying that, that evidence is incorrect?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think totally incorrect.

MR DORFLING: Is there a possibility of any other person having reacted in this fashion than yourself on that day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't get you.

MR DORFLING: Was there any other person who could probably fit into this description of what transpired on the day at that corner?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I don't know.

MR DORFLING: Was there anybody else with an AK47 on that corner?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: You don't tell me whether that person says that person was on a standing position, kneeling position or prone position. You don't state that.