Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR K LEBEA: Somewhere he's still right, somewhere he's still missing some aspects there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So are you sure that what you are telling the Committee is exactly what happened that after he was shot and you were also shot your took him to the rondavel and you came back to the house?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you saw him hacking, attacking Mr van Tonder, you shouted for them to stop and at that time Mr van Tonder was still in possession of the gun?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It was after they have moved away from him that Mr van Tonder shot at you?

MR K LEBEA: He fired a shot, by the time they were turning, looking at me he fired a shot.  I don't know whether that is the shot that caught my brother and they ran out for cover and then Mr van Tonder pointed the gun to me and I was standing looking at him.  I never even had any fear whether he will shoot me or what, I was looking at him and he fired a shot that caught me on the left - my right thigh, if I'm not mistaken, so it's the time then I decided that I should shoot him too.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just tell us were there any electrical lights on in the house ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were there any lights on in the house?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you could clearly see what's happening?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: There was no darkness in the house?

MR K LEBEA: There was no darkness.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was Mr van Tonder bleeding?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, he was bleeding.

JUDGE DE JAGER: From where?  From which part of his body?

MR K LEBEA: From the head he was bleeding.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you - now there was also - he was asked about the rondavel and he said - was this rondavel in the farm or somewhere outside the farm, or was still within the premises of Mr van Tonder?

MR K LEBEA: In the premises of Mr van Tonder.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was your brother, according to your observations, still conscious at that time when you took him there?

MR K LEBEA: No he was unconscious.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now there was a mention that you were five in this operation, this incident.

MR K LEBEA: What I knew is that we were four, I never knew the fifth man.  The fifth man I started to know was at the law court which was by the name of Mr Paulus Masitsa, I never knew him before.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps then we could deal with that immediately because you've made an affidavit, you remember, before going to court?

MR K LEBEA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In your affidavit you stated
"The five of us went to a farm close to Mazelspoort with the purpose to break in."
It's page 41 and then you say:
"Paulus was outside of the house, he was not inside"
and this fifth person that was referred to was Paulus, so in your affidavit you mention his name and you say that you were five but that he was outside of the house.  Can you explain to me how this happened?

MR K LEBEA: Yes.  Actually after I knew him on the time of our appearance at the law court, I decided because there was a lot of confusion during our appearance and I decided that ...(indistinct) the same statement as the other guys, we were five, but I never knew that guy, maybe other guys knew him before, or maybe my brother knew him, I never knew him before that.

CHAIRPERSON: No but the impression gained reading this is that you were five at the farm.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, I said that but that was wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: Then where did this agreement come from that you should mention this Paulus, all of you mention Paulus? When was such an agreement made that in your confessions you make mention of Paulus Masitsa?

MR K LEBEA: It was during the discussion about the incident and they told me the police caught someone who was nearer to the farm by the name of Paulus Masitsa, so the guys, they said he should be involved in all this.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to have regard to page 40, that's where the confession starts.  Do you see that there is a date mentioned there, the 11th of February, 1991?

MR K LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understood your testimony thus far, is that on the 11th you wanted to be discharged but instead of going out you were placed in this other cell where you were subsequently taken by police.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And according to this, it was made the next day.  Where was this made?

MR K LEBEA: I don't know Sir, I never made such a statement because what I remember on the 11th of February, it was the day I was supposed to be discharged at the hospital, it was Monday that day, if I remember well, it was Monday, so it is the day they took me to the other words where it was under guard, so this whole thing is new to me.  If you can go back to the calendar, the 11th was Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let me correct myself, actually it's not a confession, it's a statement made by you.

MR K LEBEA: I never made any statement that day, I just told the police that I knew nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: However, to say in your favour, that there is confusion, that is dated the 13th and if you look at the last page as well, 42, it's also dated the 13th of February, that's the confusion that arises now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I think the 11th is the date he was arrested in hospital, if you look at that.  Date of arrest - Arrested on the 11th, so I'm sure it's the date of the arrest, that's 11th, the following day on Monday at hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you stay in hospital after you had been taken to this ward where there were guards?  How long did you stay there?

MR K LEBEA: Well, plus or minus because I went there on Sunday the 10th and on the 11th was the day I was taken to the other ward, plus or minus 3 to 4 days.  I don't recall exactly the days, but I think maybe on the 12th or on the 13th I was discharged from hospital forcefully by the police, not by doctor's instruction and I went right out of hospital with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if we have regard to page 42, look at point 42, it's written the signature there, King T. Lebea.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, I can see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your signature?

MR K LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now my brother asked you about these 5 people.  You recall what we asked your brother in respect of what we saw on page 5 or 6?  Let me just find it for you.  That on page 5, which is a response to questions asked by the Amnesty Committee of the TRC, that is your response starting on page 5 and if you have regard to page 6, down there it's written from Titus Lebea and King Lebea, do you see that?

MR K LEBEA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And to be honest to you is that if you have regard to page 5, there are 2 emblems of the Pan Africanist Congress on both sides, that is left and right.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And somewhere there is an address, Titus Lebea, on the right-hand side, 19050 Bophelong, Rocklands, Bloemfontein.  Do you see that?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you look at on the left-hand side, I'm not sure about what is on top, but it would appear to me, it's not very clear but I see there 262 Vermeulen Street, Carl Klein Building, 6th Floor, Room (it's not very clear), 602 - 697 Pretoria.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know were you author or co-author of this document which was a response to the questions asked?

MR K LEBEA: I was a co-author.

CHAIRPERSON: And it says on page 5, 2.1 in the middle there
"After a thorough reconnaissance, I came to the conclusion that it will be attacked by a unit of 5, armed with 1 AK47 rifle and knife, with the sole intention of carrying the liberation struggle forwards through, as a means as applied in this case."
The 5 crops up again, unit of 5.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir, I can see.

CHAIRPERSON: Why wasn't it easy to say to the Amnesty Committee:  "We were 4 after reconnaissance.  We said 5, but we went as a unit of 4"?