Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson, I want to stress as my testimony led on Friday, I was in no way in any assaults, torture or any violation of human rights against any citizens of this area whilst I was serving here. I am sure that there are people in the audience who will testify to this.  It wasn't necessary that I had to use violence.  We had powers to arrest.  This questioning was with people who would go so far as to get people to do things, that wasn't part of my way and function of doing that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever present when any assault took
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place, any people being tortured, any people being physically mishandled, did any of that take place in your presence?

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson I deny that strongly. Not that
I ever can remember I was never present, that's not the type of person I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever accompany policemen, whether the Kwandebele police or kitskonstables, when they went out to make arrests, when they raided peoples houses, when they pulled people out of houses. Did you ever accompany them on such activities?

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson I will confirm that a previous person who testified here said that a certain Mongongwa one night went with me on arrest, I don't deny that, it could be true, but I didn't need to take masses of people with me to arrest someone. If I didn't take an informer with me to know exactly where a person lives, it wasn't necessary for me to have someone with me, so I deny, and as he put it, that I ever took any kitskonstables with me. The people who I took with me were people who worked with me if it was necessary, and if we had the necessary evidence, we went to arrest someone.

CHAIRPERSON: And when these people were arrested, were they assaulted, were their arrests carried out in a proper and routine way or were they physically dragged out of their houses, forced into the police vans and beaten up?

COL DE JAGER: I want to state it quite clearly that if the previous would have said that he was taken by his belt, that's the way in which a person is arrested. That's how its done in physical contact but I also want to state it quite clearly that the regulations stated that a person's family
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should immediately be informed of his arrest and I saw to it that the families were informed and their are, if you would allow, any witnesses to testify in that regard. It wasn't ever necessary for me to pull someone from his house, I 
would let the person, where a person would not want to have been arrested, that we might have done that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now these detentions that you speak about, were they always carried out after sufficient investigation had been done or were people sometimes just picked up at random?

COL DE JAGER: Mr Chairperson not at all, I would never have done that on the basis of any information that I wouldn't understand if I were to do so.  So the statements that I'm talking about, implicated people and those persons would be arrested and questioned while they were in detention.  So until further information was obtained, wherever the person was being detained.

CHAIRPERSON: And during the questioning of people was force used to get information from people.

COL DE JAGER: I was never ever aware of that, as I say, the questioning never took place in my presence, the investigative unit did that part, I was present in a few cases but there was never any such deeds that were committed but the persons volunteered information.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that when you detained people the regulations said that you had to inform their immediate family.  Is it not the case though that many people who were detained were taken far away from the places where they had been detained, were taken long distances which actually made it difficult and sometimes impossible for families and even lawyers to get into contact with them.  Did that ever happen?
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COL DE JAGER: I can say that after the repeal of the first state of emergency and the announcement of the second one, where people whose matters  were already being investigated and who were detained for more that 30 days at the time were
detained in places outside Kwandebele, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Superintendent, why were people taken outside of the area where it would be difficult for their family and for their lawyers to contact them?

COL DE JAGER: Firstly I would like to say that I think the detention facilities which were available in Kwandebele were not adequate to detain persons for longer periods of time.  Secondly our people were also detained outside the area for their own safety. If you say that it's for the sake of attorneys and so forth, I would not like to agree with that, because what happens is that where attorneys, and I was in close liaison with them, where attorneys wanted to see any person or client, appoint would be made and arrangements would be made for that person to consult with that person at the Commissioner's office.

CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the emergency regulations, all your detentions that took place, that the person ultimately responsible for authorising this was Brigadier Jack Cronje, because he was head of the security police in the Northern Province, is that not the case?  Did he not have to authorise detentions under emergency regulations?

COL DE JAGER: He was part of a committee which would decide on the further detention of people on the basis of information which was available to him, or authorise the further detention which would be requested by the minister.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier Cronje was here and gave testimony, and he claims that many of the detentions which took place,
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many of the extensions of peoples periods of detention were not authorised by him, in fact that he had very little control, that the police here, that the Commissioner, Brigadier Hertzog Lerm together with you, basically did what you wanted to do in the area and that you arrested people, you detained people, sometimes without sufficient investigation, that you kept people for longer, that this was not authorised, and that they had to intervene time and time again to release people, especially, and he mentions specifically, James Mhlangu and also his brother the present king, Cornelius Mhlangu, that they actually had to intervene to get these people released, with the time that you kept these people in detention.

COL DE JAGER: Once it again it was not the authorisation of the Commissioner then or myself or Brigadier Cronje to detain these people longer than the prescribed period.  I'd like to mention that many of these people were ordered, upon information which was available to be released and motivation for further detention would be based on evidence which was available at that stage. The authorisation was not done by us.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I've got one question, I don't know whether it's correctly directed, if not please just correct me. I don't know whether it was during your time when we had a number of youths who were killed in this area, coming form Mamelodi, I would want to know what your police force did with those deaths in terms of further investigation of the perpetrators of those murders?