Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-21

MR YENGENI: And I would also like to say that I appreciate what you did and we hope that you would continue doing that.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR YENGENI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Yengeni.  Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, there's just one point that I would like clarity on.

MS PATEL: Mr Siyali, you've stated in your affidavit to us on page 14 of the bundle, paragraph 16, as part of your political motivation you say that
"My aforementioned actions were done in the bona fide belief that we were combatting terrorists and terrorist activities."
Yet today in response to questions from Mr Yengeni, you state that you were helping your people and you remained there with the Security Branch to assist freedom fighters.  Do you care to comment on this contradiction?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: When I'm saying I was helping them, yes indeed, we were fighting terrorists, but I was also oppressed, so I was supposed to help our people.  Yes, we were fighting terrorists, but I was also oppressed.

MS PATEL: Your response, with respect, I don't understand your response.  It doesn't make any sense to me.  Are you saying that when you committed this offence, that you were fighting terrorism, you were combatting terrorism?  Is that what you are saying to us?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Can you please repeat your question?

MS PATEL: The offence for which you are applying for amnesty here today, are you saying that when you committed that offence, you were fighting terrorism?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: And during that, at what stage were you then, according to your oral evidence here today, assisting freedom fighters?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I was at the office and that office was supposed to combat terrorist acts, but as a black person, as I've already stated before, we were not trusted.  All the freedom fighters would be tortured and then they would be handed over to us as Africans.  We would send them to hospitals and to help them in general, or whatever they needed.  They were under my care.  I was supposed to take them to doctors, buy clothes for them, those that were detained under Section 29.

MS PATEL: Are you saying to us that the objective of the Security Branch at that stage, was to combat terrorists, but you personally, in carrying out your duties, was not to carry out that objective or not to try to achieve that objective, your own objective was in fact quite contrary to that and it was to assist the people who had been arrested.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct, because I was also oppressed.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SIGODI: You say that when David, the askari, shot Mr Jonas, you were not present.  That happened in the bush?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: And you also mentioned that, in your opinion, it was not necessary for David to shoot Mr Jonas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: What I want to find out from you is, did you at that time align yourself with what David did, that is the shooting of Mr Jonas?  Did you consider yourself part of that action and did you align yourself, did you agree with it at that time?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, I didn't agree with it at that time.

ADV SIGODI: Are you also applying for amnesty in respect of that shooting?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Well, what offence do you consider yourself to have committed, if you didn't agree with that shooting?  What offence are you really applying for, if you did not align yourself with the shooting per se?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: As I've already said, I pointed Mr Jonas with a gun.  That is similar to attempted murder.  I pulled the trigger, but I didn't hit anybody because I shot in the air.

ADV SIGODI: I'm still coming to that, I'm still dealing with the shooting in the bush.  You say you did not align yourself with the shooting by David, the actual shooting of Mr Jonas, so what I'm asking is, if you did not align yourself with that shooting, then what offence, in respect of what offence are you applying for amnesty for, if you did not consider yourself to be part of that offence?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It is because before he ran to the bushes, I shot in the air, that is why I applied for amnesty.

ADV SIGODI: Did you foresee that David, the askari, would shoot Mr Jonas in the bush?  Did you foresee that possibility?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, as I was sitting with Mr Yengeni in the car, I foresaw that.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, that is all Chairperson.  Oh, do you perhaps know what happened to David the askari?  What has happened to him?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I don't know.

ADV SIGODI: You've never seen him since that incident?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I saw him again in 1989 or 1990.

ADV SIGODI: But you wouldn't know where to find him today?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, I don't know.

MS PATEL: Honourable Committee Member, if I may, sorry, just in response to that question now, investigations.  From my investigations that certain David was subsequently integrated into the police force, but they unfortunately have no record of him and we couldn't trace him either.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Siyali, why did you fire the shot in the air?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It is because Mr Bongani Jonas, he was busy discussing or talking or chatting with the passengers in his car, so as the person who was not used to the askari operation, I thought that there was no need to shoot Bongani, so I just wanted, I shot in the air so that he can run away, to scare him.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words, are you telling me that you wanted to warn Mr Jonas?  Did you want to warn him so that he could get away, is that what you are saying?  I'm not sure whether I understand you correctly.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I wanted him to know that we were there, so that he can run away.

ADV BOSMAN: One more question.  How did it come about that you joined the Security Branch?  Were you invited to, did you apply to go to the Security Branch or were you simply told to go there?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I joined in Aliwal-North for SAP.  After three months, I was sent to the Hammanskraal College.  After that Col ...(indistinct) came to Hammanskraal from Cape Town Special Branch.  He wanted people that would join the Special Branch in Cape Town, so I was surprised when he mentioned my name.  He knew my name and my family in Aliwal-North.  He called my name and other people.  He told me that after College, I should go to the Special Branch.  I did not apply, but they fetched me in Hammanskraal.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Chiar.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to get some clarity on your political objective, because you said that in response to Adv Bosman's question, you fired a shot in the air because you wanted Mr Jonas to know that you were there.  You wanted him to be aware of your presence, in other words to give him a chance to run away.  So what is it that you sought to achieve?  What political motive did you actually seek to achieve?  Were you fighting terrorists, or were you giving terrorists a chance to run away?

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, were you on the side of the liberation struggle, or were you on the side of the Security Police?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: What is important is that I was supposed to be one of the MK members in Aliwal-North, but because my mother was very sick, I joined the police, that is why I ended up being at the Special Branch.  I am from a small town in Aliwal-North, so I have a sense of Ubuntu with me and I also respect the concept of Ubuntu.