Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only saw three doors.  The driver, the side door and the other one on the other side.

MR LAX: Which other side, that is the whole question that we are trying to work out now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There is a side door as you would find in  a taxi.

MR LAX: And that is different from the driver and the driver's passenger, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The other two are the driver and the passenger's doors.

MR LAX: So this door, similar to the one you find in a taxi, is that right next to the passenger's door like on a normal kombi, the front passenger's door?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And that door is not near the back of the vehicle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Carry on Mr Mey.

MR MEY: Thank you.  Mr Nosenga, is that side door, is that then on the left hand side of the casspir, on the right hand side?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, I will not commit myself.  I cannot say whether it is the left or right hand side.

MR MEY: The roof of the casspir in which you were travelling, at the back, was it open or was it closed?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean the roof of the casspir was open or closed, is this a convertible casspir?

MR MEY: I will rephrase my question as follows Mr Chairman, did the casspir in which you were travelling, had a roof or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It had a closed roof.  On the sides, it had windows, but it was, the roof was closed.

MR MEY: Do you know whether that roof can open or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not in a position to say.

MR MEY: The colour of the casspirs were yellow according to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are back to that practice of mumbling, just speak up, we want to hear what you are saying sir.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they were yellow in colour like the Police vans.

MR MEY: Any other marks or stripes on the casspir that can identify them as a Police vehicle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just noticed the colour, the yellow colour.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the yellow colour, are there any other  colour by which you could identify it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it was just the windows.

MR MEY: There were no Police stars on the casspirs, is that correct?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.

MR MEY: There were no Police stars on the casspir at any place, which you recognised?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It had a microphone that they used to communicate with, that is how I recognised that it was a Police vehicle.

MR MEY: Because it had a microphone?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that was what the Police communicated with.

MR MEY: Was that microphone used that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I  don't remember.

MR MEY: Where did you notice the microphone?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw it hanging on the roof, or from the roof, of the vehicle in front of the vehicle, inside.

MR MEY: To get back to my original question, did you see any Police stars on the vehicle, any stickers or any other stripes except for the yellow colour of the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall, except that I could make out that it belonged to the Police, due to the window shields and its make up.

MR MEY: How do you recognise it as a Police vehicle due to the window shields?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MR MEY: Mr Chairperson, he testified, he just answered the question by saying he recognised it as being a Police vehicle from the window shields.  What I want to know is, how - what is it on the window shields that makes it a Police vehicle?  Is there anything specific to the window shields?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you - this vehicle had a window grid.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't he talking about, are you talking about the mesh wire that is on the side of the window?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it has something that is round like on the end.

MR MEY: When the statement was taken from you, the one which you signed Exhibit R, pages 18 to 22, did you tell Mr Kjellberg that Chaka shot at people in the streets?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did.  I am saying there was a communication problem between myself and the Interpreter, but yes, I did tell him that he used to get out of the vehicle and shoot people on the street.

MR MEY: Was that part of your evidence, what you were telling Mr Kjellberg, was it ever read back to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, if I may, I think the applicant does not know who Mr Kjellberg is and if Mr Kjellberg was pointed out to him, he might recognise Mr Kjellberg.  The name Kjellberg is not a name that he knows or can identify with.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness is being asked about the statement R18, which he has acknowledged to be his statement, that is what he is being asked about and I think I heard him say that I had mentioned it, there was a misunderstanding with the Interpreter.  What is the point you are making?

MS TANZER: No the point is, there are many references to a Kjellberg and I am just saying that Mr Kjellberg's name is not a name that he knows.  His name is not identifiable to him.

CHAIRPERSON: He has - this statement was never read to him?

MS TANZER: That is not what I am saying Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you, is that what you are saying that this statement was never read to him?

MS TANZER: No, that is not what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Even during consultation as well?

MS TANZER: The statement has been read to him.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, was it ever  when a statement was read back to you, was it ever mentioned that Chaka was shooting in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, but I am saying Chaka was shooting.

MR MEY: The reason why I am asking this, I am referring to Exhibit R, page 21, paragraph 20, and I am going to read it
"... Peens also shot people, he shot from the casspir."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Peens would get off the casspir, walk on foot and shoot people on the street or in the street.

MR MEY: It was never mentioned, or it is not in writing in that statement which you signed, that Chaka got off the casspir and shot at people.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had a problem with the Interpreter, because look, I indicated that the person who used to get off the casspir to shoot people in the street, was Peens.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, but you have also testified that you corrected them when something was written that was not correct, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was rectifying mistakes in several statements.

MR MEY: Several statements?  Is that what you are saying now, several statements?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There are several of them, I do not know.

MR MEY: How many statements did you make?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, what is being put to you is that you told us that the statement was read to you and that you corrected  anything that you didn't agree with in the statement as it was read back to you.  You did tell us that, did you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have to correct this Interpreter on more than one occasion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR MEY: After it was corrected, was it read back to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MEY: And were you satisfied then with the contents thereof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MEY: Why did you sign the statement referred to in Exhibit R, pages 18 to 22?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I signed the statement because I am applying for amnesty.

MR MEY: When the statement, Exhibit R, pages 18 to 20 was read - let me ask you this, was it read back to you after it was finished and written down or typed, at any stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was read back to me.

MR MEY: Were you happy with it, with the contents thereof?