Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

DIRK COETZEE: No, he confirmed - Nick confirmed that the detainee was released, abducted and illegally held.

MR BOOYENS: At the Harms Commission?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't remember where but with less details than was given in the Harms Commission by their legal representative Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But you say Sam Maritz said at the Harms Commission that they released the man in order to get his motor car back.

DIRK COETZEE: No, he's - it is in this Volume 3 Mr Chairman, I think he said he was taken to Bloemfontein, he was released, his car was given to him and he was free to just leave wherever he wanted to go Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Well, that is a far cry from admitting that he was illegally detained subsequent to that.

DIRK COETZEE: Well, I just said to the legal representative then, so my story makes more logic.  The fact that he was found in a white single quarters - as being confirmed by one of the applicants du Plessis in this hearing, and that his car was held in the garage there at Bloemfontein - at Jeffrey's Bay after it was put to me that he was released in Bloemfontein and his car handed to him there in Bloemfontein.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, but to return to the question I've asked you earlier on, this charade of releasing Mr Kondile, getting him to sign for his car and kidnapping him again, would only have been necessary if that car was entered into official records otherwise there would be no need for it.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, except there was other property too entered into the registers at Hilton police station in Bloemfontein where he was detained.

MR BOOYENS: Well you know of course that he was transferred with - and the documentation is available Mr Coetzee.  He was transferred with a warrant in terms of Section 6 and all the paper work was there.

DIRK COETZEE: I have seen it Mr Chairman, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Surely one would have expected when he was released at Hilton police station in Bloemfontein that if there was other property he would have taken that with him because there was nothing irregular about that transfer on what we can see.

DIRK COETZEE: There wasn't anything irregular Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee, I've got a copy of - in Volume 3 page 92, you say - page 92, that's the record of your evidence in London at the time of the Harms Commission, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: I will accept it Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now at - your answer a question - I think this is you being questions by Sam Maritz if I'm not mistaken, it looks like - ja, it's Maritz, Sam Maritz says to you at line two that he doesn't understand the story and that
"As I've learnt from Colonel Nick van Rensburg, this Kondile was arrested coming out of Lesotho as I can remember"
and then you carry on with your answer:
"His car was then booked in a police station somewhere in the Free State.  Then I said at the time when I met at Jeffrey's Bay I can't remember or can't say whether he was then officially released and kidnapped again or whether he was then still officially detained at Jeffrey's Bay police station but according to what I can recollect what they told me, they released him eventually officially, handed him his car and all his belongings and then he was kidnapped thereafter"
In fact it seems that was what you say that you learnt from Colonel Nick van Rensburg?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't remember that I said it but it should be Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But you can't remember where and when you learnt it from Colonel Nick van Rensburg.

DIRK COETZEE: At what stage, That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: From what I see here, it doesn't seem as if Sam Maritz said it, you in fact said it?

DIRK COETZEE: No, it's in this - if the Commission will just bear with me a second, he tells the whole story of the release but Sam Maritz said it.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, no but what Sam Maritz said, as I now understand you, is in fact he said to you
"No, the man was released, his car was handed to him and he was free to go"

DIRK COETZEE: At Bloemfontein Mr Maritz ...[indistinct]

MR BOOYENS: You see at page 93 of the same record Mr Maritz continues cross-examining you and if you specifically - from line 10 Mr Coetzee
"According to them the car was kept in the Free State somewhere at a police station in the Free State"
That's your answer.
"Then he must be taken to the police station in the Free State"?
It's not a statement, it's a question.
"I suppose so, yes"
That's your answer.
"And driven his car there" - "I suppose so, yes"
"And allowed to drive off"? - " suppose so, yes"
"And they caught him again" - "According to them"
"But you saw the car at Jeffrey's Bay"
And this significant in the answer Mr Coetzee.
"That's correct"
"But how is that possible"
That's Sam Maritz and here's your answer:
"No, I don't know, it was a two door Stanza, I don't know.  I've seen the car there and I cannot say whether he was then officially detained again or already been released"
"But you said now that van Rensburg told you that that was the car of the detainee"? - "That's correct"
	Now here it seems on this answer opposite line 20 that you are uncertain whether the man was officially released or officially detained again, but according to what van Rensburg told you, the man had been kidnapped, he couldn't be officially detained by the time you saw the car.

DIRK COETZEE: It was quite a long remark, perhaps Mr Booyens can just help me to sort that out Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Against the context of your answer here Mr Coetzee, van Rensburg told you the man was taken to Bloemfontein, given his car and kidnapped and the reason being that he had a brain injury, so there's no question that he could have been officially detained, he was illegally detained.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, he was illegally detained after being released, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, what I'm asking you is to explain your answer to the Harms Commission in London, that you cannot say whether he was then officially detained again or already been released.

DIRK COETZEE: Well, that was conclusions that I came to and it was confirmed to be correct Mr  Chairman, by Mr Maritz.

MR BOOYENS: No, no, Mr Coetzee, but the point is by the time you gave evidence in London, Nick van Rensburg had already told you the story - if I understand you correctly, that they kidnapped the man.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: How could you still leave room for the possibility that he was officially detained?

DIRK COETZEE: Well, I couldn't - I had no documents to say when he released and whether he was at that stage unofficially detained - although I got the impression that he was because of his car in the garage and he was ...[indistinct] in the single quarters.

MR BOOYENS: Very well Mr Coetzee, I hear your answer.
	Could you just bear with me Mr Chairman.  I try to be a man of my word Mr Chairman, that concludes my cross-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Booyens.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, there's pressure on me now to be a man of my word as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser.

VISSER: Mr Coetzee, do you have Volumes 2 and 3 in front of you?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can I just ascertain your stand in regard to the application of the four applications for amnesty in the Kondile matter before this Committee at the moment, do you oppose their applications or not?

DIRK COETZEE: I in person, not at all Mr Chairman and I do not wish them not to be granted amnesty at all, I've got nothing personal or bitter against the applicants.

MR VISSER: Right.  Mr Coetzee, is it correct to say that in the year 1989 you decided to come clean, to tell the full truth?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And how you went about this?