Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible) to higher ground?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: On your return in 1994, or on Thursday the 10th of February, did anything take place on that particular day in relation to this?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Tell us what happened please.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We were allocating land to some people there in the upper ground, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, who's we?  We were allocating, who, who's we?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We were the leaders of ANC I'm referring to.  After allocating land to people, one lady came, and this particular lady was an ANC member.  After some time we discovered that she became IFP member.  After she came to us requiring some land, my brother, who was chairperson of ANC at the time, requested her to go to Sithole and to Zwane and it will be up to them and she will give them the go-ahead for her to join us, or the people in the new allocated area, and after that she will be allocated some land.  This lady as to what she said to Mr Sithole and Zwane, went and said Dastile said it's only ANC in that area, no IFP.  That's what she relate now to the two gentlemen, in turn.
	Now that made Mr Sithole together with Zwane and Magwaza, as well as Mr Sikubu, came to Dastile to find out and canvass that further with him, the chairperson of ANC.  He did and attempted very hard to explain this position that it is not how he had said it to the lady, and that's not how ...(intervention)

AZHAR CACHALIA: You said, came to your brother Dastile to discuss this particular issue.  Was your brother alone or was there other people with him?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We were present as well.  Myself I was there. We're building, we were building my brother's shack.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Who was the other people that were present?  Please tell me.  It was your brother, yourself, who else was there?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was my brother, myself, Maxine April and, Maxine April with ...(indistinct) and Maxine's brother.  Continued allocating the land to people as these other gentlemen arrived.  They joined now into this meeting because Mr Dastile was calling them to stop what they were doing, measuring and taping, measuring the land.  They had to stop and respond to the call of my brother.  And it was that group.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Dastile, I just want the general summary of what happened, it is not very relevant just to get the background of the matter.  You and your brothers and the other persons mentioned met Mr Sithole and the other person, Zwane and Mpongosi to discuss the issue of the allocation of land.  That was on the 10th of February, is that right?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he didn't mention Mpongosi.  It was Magwaza, Sithole and others, ...(indistinct) his name.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As a result of that particular meeting did you arrange anything with the IFP members?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Mr Sithole said this is a quest for concern and we have to sit and discuss this further.  There's going to be an ANC committee and the committee that was the civic committee, committee that acted as civic committee had to be prepared to attend this meeting in light of solving this problem.

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible) was to meet the ANC committee meet.  With whom must they meet, with the IFP or with the community in general?  What was the position please?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: All the committees, in other words only the committees, civic, ANC and IFP.  We went to meet right next to the container next to, which as located towards Binkie Moloi's house or next to Binkie Moloi's house.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then, after that on Friday, the next day ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Cachalia, where was this, when was this meeting to be?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: This meeting took place Thursday afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: That meeting, at that meeting you say it was then decided that the civic committee, the ANC committee and the IFP committee had to get together to discuss it.  When was it arranged for that next meeting of the three committees?  When was that meeting planned for?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was going to be on that very day Thursday when we were discussing it or planning for the next meeting, the committee meeting that is.  We met that very Thursday afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't the meeting arranged for Saturday evening?  Or late Saturday afternoon, five o'clock saturday?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, that meeting was planned on the Thursday.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the meeting that was to take place  at five, was that the meeting you're talking about, between these Committees?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Let me try and explain something here, maybe you misunderstood me.  When Mr Sithole came to us and talked to my brother and whilst we were busy building the shack, he asked about this, that lady that went to them and relayed some information to them.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I just try and assist?  We don't want to waste too much time Mr Dastile.  On Thursday afternoon Thursday evening, whenever it was, that Thursday you met with members of the IFP, is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You arranged to meet again on Saturday.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What time were you supposed to meet?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: At five o'clock.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What was the purpose of meeting at five o'clock on Saturday?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was to solve this shack problems and the posters of ANC that were torn apart by and destroyed by the IFP.

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible)

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: on Friday.

AZHAR CACHALIA: So it couldn't have, Thursday you couldn't have discussed the question about that.  Posters on Saturday.  But please let's just deal with the issues in sequence.  On Thursday you met because there was a problem with the allocation of shacks on the designated land.  Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you agreed to meet on Friday, or sorry on Saturday at five o'clock to discuss that particular position.  Is that right?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.  When the ANC youth league put up these posters on Friday, members of the IFP youth brigade followed them from behind, removing and tearing these posters into pieces.  And when we received this information from our members of the youth league we therefore saw it necessary to meet with Mr Sithole.

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible) not disputed Mr ...(inaudible) the matter and it was resolved in that he said that if necessary he will call the police to put the IFP youth brigade, if they were removing the matter, he'd talk to them and he resolved the matter, he said he would resolve it.  That  I think is common cause.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We had already informed him and I cannot comment any further about what happened thereafter.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You, you're not going to dispute that he spoke to his IFP youth brigade?  You don't dispute that do you?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, I cannot dispute that, but I did not see that happening.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, now on Saturday?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: On Saturday in the morning around ten o'clock the IFP met at the sports ground where they had an office.  They started chanting their Zulu songs and they walked towards the sports field.  When they arrived at the sports field they got into their shack which was not roofed.  My house was further up that shack.  It could be 200 metres, even less than that.  They were a distance, but not far away.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, Mr Dastile, if where the IFP shack is where our Chairperson is sitting, how far away was your shack, can you indicate insofar as the distance is concerned?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: From the Chairperson right up to the exit point of this building.