Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, then the Branch would not have asked us, they would have gone to arrest the people themselves.

MR RAMAWELE: If you didn't have the name, you didn't have the address of the killers, what you had to do is you had to infiltrate the local activists and find out who killed the police officers, not so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: If it had been necessary or the Security Branch saw it as necessary, but on the other side, you are covering all possible transport methods like trains and taxi's to see if you can't identify the people at face value and we were quite successful with this, and by means of this, the cell or the group could be caught or broken up.

MR RAMAWELE: Mr de Kock, I don't think you understand what I am saying, what I am saying is you went to Durban to look for the killers of two or three police officers, not so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You didn't have the names of the killers of the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, not that I can remember.

MR RAMAWELE: You didn't have the addresses of the killers of the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Now, the only information that you had was that they were MK people?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: But your purpose to go there was to track down and arrest the killers of these police officers, that was why you had to go to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: To search for these terrorists that had killed these Security Branch police officers, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Now obviously if you walk around the bus stops, the trains, etc, you - even if you meet an MK person, you cannot say that is the person who killed the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, but we would arrest him if he was a trained MK member, we would take him to C R Swart where he would be interrogated by the local C R Swart branch.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you arrest a single, do you arrest a single activist or MK member at the time when you went to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I cannot remember at that stage Chairperson, on previous occasions we had caught various MK members at Durban station.

MR RAMAWELE: You had a lot of askaris when you came to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, I wouldn't say we had enough, but we did have.

MR RAMAWELE: And these are the people you say who would help in the identifying of the members of MK, etc?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: These askaris who were at Vlakplaas, did some of them have a good knowledge about Durban and the people around who were involved in local politics in Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I do not know.   I do not know how many of them had come from Durban.  Your MK members weren't necessarily area bound, you for instance did not get a Zulu from Umtata.  MK deployed their people as they thought it fit.

MR RAMAWELE: Okay, I put it to you that when you left for Durban, your reason for going to Durban was simply to go to Durban and go to Chesterville and eliminate those activists, that is why you went to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, not true.

MR RAMAWELE: Because according to your testimony, despite the fact that you had a large contingent of Vlakplaas members, you were very unsuccessful.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could you kindly just tell me if he came to Durban to eliminate activists, do you suggest that he had the names and the identities of certain activists which he could target?

MR RAMAWELE: What I am putting to him is that at the shooting itself, that was a target which they had, it was a target which they had to eliminate.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean it was an identified target at that point?

MR RAMAWELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sole purpose of the operation was to eliminate them?

MR RAMAWELE: Was to eliminate them, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That seem to have been the testimony of your client?

MR RAMAWELE: Yes, that is what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you are putting to Mr de Kock?

MR RAMAWELE: That is what I am putting to him, yes.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, this is not true.

MR RAMAWELE: And  I further put it to you that Almond Nofomela was actually involved in this operation in the sense that he drove the members up to a bridge, but did not get into Chesterville itself?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, this is his statement.

MR RAMAWELE: And I also put it to you that you said to him that Nofomela and Bosigo should not get involved, because you had another mission where he had to, which he had to undertake?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And that the sole purpose, and that further on that you told him that the people in Chesterville were going to get shot?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ramawele.  Mr Cornelius, any questions?

MR CORNELIUS: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  Mr Shezi, have you got any questions?

MR SHEZI: Just a few Mr Chairman, thank you.   Mr de Kock, you said the whole trip to come together was not a clandestine one, in other words it was legitimate within that particular context, what do you say?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, it just like all our other deployments, we were looking for terrorists.

MR SHEZI: And that would have involved some planning as to the methods that you were going to employ in trying to locate, to identify the terrorists?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the use of askaris or the members here locally would have been at the request of the Durban Security Branch who knew how they wanted to work, where they wanted to go to.

MR SHEZI: My question is on your part, on your carrying out your mandate or in complying with the request, there would have been some planning on your part as to the method that was going to be used?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson yes, we came down to Durban, we deployed, on request of the Durban Security Branch, we do what they want us to do and then you follow the information from there.

CHAIRPERSON: But beforehand you also prepared yourself for a possible infiltration and this is why Nortje had made the suggestion that an AK47 had to be gotten hold of?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, as far as I am concerned, this was good initiative.

CHAIRPERSON: So over and above your normal modus operandi to deploy the askaris, to identify MK members and to arrest them, you also foresaw as part of the modus operandi in this case, that you would or that you had to infiltrate?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, sorry Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman.   You said earlier on when it was put to you by Mr Ramawele, that you had no investigative skills or anything like that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, let me put it this way, it is not that one doesn't know where to look or how the one aspect would then lead into the other one, I did not investigate files, but I did not investigate cases for the court.  We were a quick reaction or deployment unit and basically a fighting unit.

MR SHEZI: If you say you did not investigate for the courts, ultimately what would have become of these terrorists, just to use your phrase, had you found them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the members that we had caught of MK or of APLA would then be handed over to the local Security Branch, they would do the questioning, they would do the identifying and they  either recruit them or they would look at court cases and if it is not maybe related to other case.