Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Are you referring to a policeman that welcomed us?

MR DUKADA: That is correct.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I didn't ask because when we left that place he phoned Umtata and we left immediately.  We came to Umtata.

MR DUKADA: Now what I'm saying to you is that as a member of an underground unit in Transkei you were congratulated for having killed Ndondo.  Did you not find it necessary to investigate exactly the nature of this killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I said from the beginning that I was still surprised there was nothing else that I uttered thereafter.

MR DUKADA: Are you still shocked today?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Even today I'm not happy about that.

MR DUKADA: Even today you are not interested to find out the nature of the killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I am interested but I don't feel good about it.

MR DUKADA: No, what I'm saying to you is that throughout your period as a member of the underground unit, you never bothered to convince yourself about the nature of the killing which deserved congratulations?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I never looked at it that way.

MR DUKADA: Do you regard Mr Dandala this killing as a political killing or an ordinary killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was a political killing.

MR DUKADA: Political killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Yes and a killing which would definitely interest a member of an underground unit in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Will you please repeat the question?

MR DUKADA: It is a political killing which would obviously attract the interest of any member of an underground unit in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DUKADA: And an ordinary member of that unit would investigate that killing to satisfy himself?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes a person would investigate and satisfy himself.

MR DUKADA: But in your case you did nothing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not investigate because the people that I was with they had told me that he was a terrorist therefore I didn't investigate anything.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairperson I'm being reluctant to ask a very short adjournment but I'm just rounding up my cross examination of the witness so I would be happy to get a very short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: What for?

MR DUKADA: I just want to establish that I have covered all the aspects which ... [inaudible] from the family and the instructing attorneys about all the aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not the  instructing attorney sitting next to you?

MR DUKADA: He is sitting next to me Mr Chairman but he is definitely not well informed about all the issues.  There are other persons informed.

CHAIRPERSON: How  much time do you need?

MR DUKADA: Fifteen minutes would be enough Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You can then resume your cross examination.  Will that be a problem or do you have to, do we have to adjourn for fifteen minutes now?   Or will you be content if the others continue and then at some point maybe you can take instructions and then resume your cross examination?

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman I will be happy with the arrangement if other members of the Committee they take over and cross examine the witness.  I say Mr Chairperson I will be happy with the arrangement you are proposing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma do you have any problem with that arrangement?

MR MAPOMA: No sir I don't have a problem with it.

CHAIRPERSON: If he is instructed to put further questions tomorrow, he can put those questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knight do you have a problem with that?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: I have no problem with that thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you relevant questions now? ... [inaudible] proceed?

MR DUKADA: I have a few questions.  May I just say this Mr Chairperson, I have a few questions to put to the witness but I wouldn't like to close my cross examination without having consulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we understand that.  No, we understand that.  I thought you were saying that ... [inaudible] in order to take instructions and then continue thereafter.  If you have further questions then by all means.  Yes by all means put whatever questions you have.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairperson I must apologise to keep interfering with the mike.  I'm not used to such a sophisticated mike.  Mr Dandala, during the years, especially at 1984, there was, as I pointed out earlier to you a crises at the University of Transkei.  Do you still remember?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And at that time, 1985, Paramount Chief K T Matanzima was due to retire as the State President, do you recall that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And he was making speeches at various districts of the former Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DUKADA: And in the course of his speeches he was talking about communism and terrorism which was infiltrating Transkei, do you remember that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I can't remember that.

MR DUKADA: Now, but out of the speeches which the former State President was making he was voicing his anger about what was taking place in the country?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I won't know that.  As far as I am concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you say you don't know?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The fact that he was voicing his anger.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you have the occasion to listen to what he had to say?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes he was allowed, he could say that but about his anger I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not with you.  Did you hear Mr Matanzima making speeches in regard to the situation in Transkei in general?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I used to hear him making his speeches.

CHAIRPERSON: Commenting on the situation in the Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The speech that I heard clearly, it was after the death of Batandwa.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, the former State President that is K T Matanzima delivered a speech at Bizana where he indicated that black students who were agitating ... [inaudible] should be punished by a stick?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I didn't hear that.

MR DUKADA: And thereafter police started panicking because they were worried about the politician who was exhorting them to assault students?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: ... [no English translation]

MR DUKADA: You didn't know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I can't remember.

MR DUKADA: And do you agree with me that out of the various speeches which were made by K T Matanzima in 1985 he was panicking about the wave of unrest in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I can agree with you if you put it that way.

MR DUKADA: And he used to call meetings time and again with the top management of the student branch in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't know that.

MR DUKADA: Right let's leave this aspect.  You arrested Myapi in Bizana long after Ndondo had been killed?  Sorry, Nzamele?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: You arrested?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: You had been instructed to go and arrest him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, there was no instruction given.  He was spotted by one of the policemen who used to be my colleague.

MR DUKADA: And you went there to arrest him on your own?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: We went there on our own.

MR DUKADA: It was you who effected the arrest?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, there were three of us.

MR DUKADA: Now, but earlier on you said that it was not your duty to arrest.  Your duty was to collect information?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was no longer an underground policeman at the time.

MR DUKADA: When did you leave the underground security?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was in 1985 but I can't remember the date and the month but it was in 1985.

MR DUKADA: Why were you removed?