Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-24

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: Yes Mr Chairman I may indicate that the matter that should have been heard first today that is the application of Sandile Manana I explained to you Mr Chairman in chambers what the situation is here. Apparently this applicant as fairly recently paroled. Steps have been taken to ascertain his whereabouts to advise him but whether he will arrive today is another matter. In which event I suggest the matter be removed from the roll and I believe reading the papers that is a matter that could be decided in chambers in any event.
	As far as the application of Mr Mthembu and Mr Ngobese are concerned both applicants are present. Notices have been given to all interested parties. I understand from the logistics officer that next-of-kin have decided not to attend although they oppose the application they will not be present.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Manana is removed from the roll Mr Brink you will take on the responsibility to ensure that the matter is taken to its logical conclusion.

MR BRINK: I will indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether in chambers or some other way.

MR BRINK: I will indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk do you appear in these matters of Mthembu and Ngobese?

ME DE KLERK: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For both of them?

ME DE KLERK: For both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: I will call the first applicant, Mr Mthembu.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr de Klerk.

ME DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mthembu is it correct that you were born on the 11th of September 1970 in the Mapumulu district that is close to Stanger?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: The area that you grew up.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Traditional way.

ME DE KLERK: Did you grow up in a traditional way or did you grow up in an urban area?

ME DE KLERK: Did you grow up with the normal values by that I mean you believed in your forefathers, there was traditional structures like nkozis, indunas, tribal policemen and so forth?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.  It is true.

ME DE KLERK: Mr Mthembu did you go to school?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: To which level?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Std 9.

ME DE KLERK: You are here today to apply for amnesty for the matter that happened on the 24th of August in the Qamba Mapumulu area is that correct?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: Can you please tell the Commission what happened in your own words on the 24th of August 1991 at Qamba Mapumulu?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: It was on Saturday.  We attended a ceremony.  It is a ceremony where the father of a girl makes a feast to say thank you to his daughter for behaving herself during her teens until she grew up.  It is also, in someway, to tell his daughter that she is now old enough to have a boyfriend.  I was with my friend Mthembu who was wearing an IFP t-shirt.  As we were dancing there, we heard someone mentioning the word "uklova" which is a derogatory word referring to IFP supporters.  We ignore this because it was not directed specifically at a certain person.  After dancing outside, we went into the kraal of our host.  It is customary that the dancing usually takes place outside before people get into the host's kraal to eat and drink.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that. Just pronounce that word again.

INTERPRETER: Uklova

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?
[

INTERPRETER: U K L O V A

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?
[

INTERPRETER: [inaudible]

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: It does not have a meaning.  It is a derogatory word referring to IFP supporters.

ME DE KLERK: Okay you were at this gathering when you finished with this feast what happened?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: As we were not people from the area, there is a custom the visitors have to perform.  For example, if a boy from your area has a girlfriend in the area you are visiting, it is customary for that girl to take care of you.  She has to bring you something to eat or drink, because she regards all of you, visitors,as in-laws.  When we were in the kraal, we were then given some drinks.  After drinking we left the kraal on our way home.  There were five of us.  As we were walking in the path, we saw people in another path.  Although it was late, it was still light.  Because of the intake of drinks, we were singing and were in a very jolly mood.  We then heard these people shouting, asking who were the people making a noise there.  They then started using swearing words, and later said, "Oh, it is these klovas."  Mshengu, my uncle Kikiza and myself then decided to approach these people, to find out from them why they were swearing at us.  These people had fighting sticks, and were very aggressive towards us.  They were in a fighting mood.  My co-accused and my uncle then started stabbing these people.

ME DE KLERK: Okay.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: One ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: The other one fell on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand where was this function being held?

INTERPRETER: The function was held outside the ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see. And then when everybody dispersed the people went from outside the house?

INTERPRETER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you carry on.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: After we stabbed them...

CHAIRPERSON: How many people did they stab?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: They stabbed two people.

ME DE KLERK: Why did you do that? Was there a decision made? What was the reason for this attack? What did you try to achieve?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: These people had called us names, and we realised that these were ANC supporters because they are the only people who call us by these names.  Because they were also aggressive, that is the reason that is the reason they were stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened after they were stabbed?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: One of them fell on the ground there, and the other one retreated and managed to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: This incident what did you try to achieve politically?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he hasn't said he was trying to achieve anything politically. You know I man he hasn't mentioned the word politics. I think in fairness you can ask him what he was trying to achieve, what was he.

ME DE KLERK: As it please I will ask it in that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: Can you just explain what would you have gained, you and your fellow applicant and your uncle - what would you have gained by killing these people?

CHAIRPERSON: By the way he hasn't said. They stabbed two people, one fell and one ran away or retreated. Now I think we had better just take that to its logical conclusion. Were those people that were stabbed did they die? Do they know that they died? I think you should clear that up.

ME DE KLERK: As it pleases Mr Chair. Do you know what happened to the people that were stabbed?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I know the one who fell eventually died.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know his name?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I know his name now.  He is Siza Enoch Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he died there at the spot where he was stabbed?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: He died on the spot.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to the other person?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: The one who was with Siza?

CHAIRPERSON: You see I get the picture there were three of them. You said there were three of them. Two of them were stabbed. One of those who were stabbed fell. The other retreated and ran away. I don't know whether the one who ran away was also stabbed. And you haven't told us what happened to the third person.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No, there were only two there.

CHAIRPERSON: There were just two of them?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.  Two.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Thank you. So now what happened to the second one? Was he also stabbed, the one who ran away?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.  He was also stabbed.