Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chair, that is all for now.  The applicant
is applying for murder, possession of unlicensed firearms, malicious damage to property, and ammunition, that's correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman may we just for the record purpose, the deceased were killed, according to the death certificate, on the 25th of August 1993, and his full names if Johannes Thabiso Mokotedi.  Thabiso with an H.  Mr Chairman I have to inform you as well that,
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

ADV STEENKAMP: Mokotedi, M O K O T E D I.  I have to inform you Mr Chairman that the father of the late Johannes Mokotedi, Mr Zachiah Mokotedi, is present here today.  He is opposing the amnesty application of the applicant, on the grounds that, as far as he was concerned, the applicant was never an informer whatsoever.  I mean the deceased.  I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.  And also that the deceased fully supported the struggle as it then was called.  Mr Mokotedi at that stage, even today, was also an ANC member, and he says his son was also an ANC member.  As far as he is concerned he was never used as an IFP or police spy or informer then.
	He also feels he's not in a position to forgive the applicant, and he says the deceased, the killing of his son, brought a lot of pain and hardship to him, and he is not in a position to forgive the applicant. 
Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend him to give evidence, or are those submissions all that he wants to say?

ADV STEENKAMP: Those were the submissions, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Ms Barnabas, you've heard those submissions made by Mr Mokotedi.  What's your comment on that?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: All I can say, we saw him as an informant because he would be seen with police, and the police at the time were enemies of our community, but he was the only person who would be seen in the company of police, that is why we regarded him as a person who was taking the information from the township to the police.

ADV GCABASHE: Had you personally seen him in the company of the police?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Whose information were you personally relying on?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I heard that from the meeting, SDU meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present in that community meeting where you believed he made an admission and said that his activities should not be laid on the doorstep of his family?  Were you in that meeting?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Where he himself, in effect, admitted this, as far as you're concerned?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, he is the one who uttered these words.

ADV GCABASHE: Just on that point, I had actually assumed that it's Thabiso's father who had given you the information.  Are you saying that Thabiso attending this meeting and Thabiso said that what he was doing should not be associated with his family?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: It's not Thabiso himself, it's his father.  He is the one who gave us that information.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, this is where my confusion arises, because the question just before mine was on the assumption that Thabiso had been at the meeting.  And you hadn't been clear actually in your evidence earlier on.  So Thabiso's father, who is today opposing the application, attended the meeting.  You were at that meeting, and you heard him say that his son was involved in activities with the police, and that whatever his son was doing should not be associated with the family?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Who was at home when you went to carry out your operation and kill Thabiso?  Was there anybody at Thabiso's home, apart from Thabiso?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: There was a tenant, a lady, a tenant who was there on the premises.

ADV GCABASHE: And then Matuli, where is he today?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: He passed away.

ADV GCABASHE: When did he pass away?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: In 1994.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Judge.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Ms Barnabus, on page 78 in answering question number 11(a) you said it was executed as an approval of sectional youth.  What did you mean by that?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: That was a general agreement of the SDU's of Monahang section.

MR SIBANYONI: But why do you say sectional youth?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: He was, he was residing in our section so that was an agreement of the section as a whole, our section that is.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there any youth organisation?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: It was the ANC youth league.

MR SIBANYONI: Did it also discuss and take a decision about this matter about Thabiso?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: No.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you shot Thabiso, he fell, and then Matuli shot him when he had already fell down.  Was Thabiso still alive when Matuli shot at him?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I am not certain about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you undergo any training in weapons?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(translation inaudible)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Barnabus you were very young when you joined the SDU, comparatively speaking.  And being a female at that time it was unusual.  Is it not so?  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you did, joining the SDU as a female, but it wasn't, one didn't find many females doing that kind of work.  Would you agree?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And we have been informed of the traumatic experiences that, in particular, the youth had to endure in that area at that time.  We're also informed that things have gone back to almost normality.  Is that correct?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you doing now?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I am doing my last year in teaching.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm pleased to hear that.

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I am busy with my last year doing a teaching diploma.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you see for the future of this country, given the apartheid era that we've just passed?  Would you like people to live together as this one nation that everybody speaks about, and to live in freedom?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, I would like freedom.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you also include that as being friendly with everybody, to make peace with our past enemies and vice versa?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The family of Thabiso, have you ever attempted to approach them, to make your peace with them?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: In a quest to become friendly and to set aside all this hate which has resulted from the apartheid era, can you see your way clear to speak to the family of Thabiso, and make peace with them, if it can be done?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: So if your attorney and some other people can make such an arrangement for you to be able to talk to them, you will be willing to do so?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(no English interpretation).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  By the way, were you ever arrested for this crime?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayasi I would be thankful if you and Mr Steenkamp would perhaps make an attempt to facilitate a meeting of the applicant and the family, to whatever end, but at least make an attempt.  ...(indistinct) reconciliation, it would seem.

MS NHLAYISI: We'll do that Mr Chair.