Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV FORD: That a limpet mine was going to be placed under the 
car?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ADV FORD: Yes, Mr Chairman.  But without identifying the 
person who was going to do that, which is specifically why I asked 
him the question.
	Mr Chairman, may I just clear up the question then if there is 
uncertainty.  I don't want to mislead the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, maybe you should do that.

ADV FORD: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  What is your evidence 
Mr Nieuwoudt, was the information from your informant that they 
would only identify the motor vehicle or were they also going to be 
involved in the placing of the bomb?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I have said, they had to identify a vehicle 
for the purposes of putting a limpet mine there.

ADV FORD: They would do the bombing themselves?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: I see.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you consider the possibility that that could 
have been disinformation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, not at that stage as far as I can remember. 
 I did not consider that possibility.

ADV POTGIETER: Especially in the light of the fact that they 
were busy to obtain on a fraudulent way, funds which belonged to 
the liberation movements?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't have any knowledge of that.

ADV POTGIETER: It could have been that the liberation 
movement decided if that was what they were doing, we would place 
that disinformation in your system?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it could have been like that, but that 
informer was an evaluated informer and I could trust him.

ADV POTGIETER: But you say you did not consider that option, 
that possibility?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Thank you.  Mr Nieuwoudt, if I could then go to page 
332, this is paragraph 29 of your application.  Do I understand the 
contents of that paragraph correctly to mean what you stated earlier, 
that the ANC would only use small amounts of information given to 
them, they wouldn't use all the information, because that would 
reveal their source?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Well, that must have immediately made it clear to you 
that the ANC must have already have substantial other information, 
or have certain other information if they are only using a portion of 
it.

ADV BOOYENS: With respect Mr Chairman, that doesn't 
necessarily follow.  It doesn't quantify what information, it is just an 
opinion that he expressed.  I will concede the paragraph is not very 
clear.

ADV FORD: Who drafted this Mr Nieuwoudt.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: My Attorney.

ADV FORD: Presumably you read it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV FORD: And you were satisfied with the contents thereof?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour, it is so, but it is ambiguous.  
This was my opinion.

ADV FORD: Well, let's go to something which isn't ambiguous, at 
333, 31.  I immediately told Brigadier Gilbert that this state of 
affairs necessitated drastic measures because the Intelligence 
Network was of no use for the Security Branch.  You made it quite 
clear to Brigadier Gilbert that you thought that drastic measures 
were necessary?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Could that mean anything else to him but that you 
were suggesting that these men should be killed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not tell him that they should be 
eliminated.

ADV FORD: Yes, I know, you have already said that.  I am saying 
can this sentence mean anything other than that you suggested that, 
that it was implicit in what you were saying to them, that they 
should be killed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so, yes.

ADV FORD: So you for yourself decided that the only way out, 
was to kill them, at that stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Then we go on to 32, Mr Nieuwoudt.  Brigadier 
Gilbert instructed me to launch an operation to eliminate these 
people.  Then I suggested to him that this should be managed on 
such a way that the blame could be placed on the ANC.

ADV BOOYENS: Before my learned friend carries on, that 
specifically was, that is the one sentence that was specifically 
amended, he said that there was some error in it.  I think in fact 
even Mr De Jager queried it as to how it happened.

ADV FORD: That is precisely so Mr Chairman, that is why I want 
to deal with it with the man who says he has read through the 
application and he was happy with it, how such an unambiguous 
sentence could have been contained in it.  Could you answer that Mr 
Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: During consultation I realised that this was not 
the case.  These words were switched.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, you were sentenced to 20 years 
imprisonment for this incident, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: This is your only chance other than the possibility of 
an appeal which may or may not succeed, of not serving that 20 
years, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, but I did not give the 
instruction to eliminate them.  And this was why I brought this 
under his attention when we consulted.

ADV FORD: Are you suggesting that you did not consult in detail 
with your Attorneys before this was prepared?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We did, yes.  Everything was tape recorded 
and typed.

ADV FORD: And you read through it before you signed it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you were happy with it as it then stood?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: After that, when we discussed this in depth, I 
did read through that and I signed it.  There were many other 
applications I handed in.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, it is a matter which has been touched 
on from time to time and there seems to be differing views in this 
regard, but you are a explosive expert yourself, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you have undergone certain courses with regard 
to explosives and dealing with explosives?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: You are capable of setting a bomb?  Preparing a 
bomb, fusing it?  Setting it off?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: The intention at all times was that this was going to 
be the manner of elimination of these four men?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

ADV FORD: Why couldn't you do it yourself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because I was not so professional.  We needed 
more professional operatives.  I am not a technical expert.

ADV FORD: Well, there was little professionalism about plan B, 
was there, shooting the men in the car as they drove past as an 
alternative?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was only plan B, if A did not succeed.

ADV FORD: Your trip to Pretoria was authorised from head office 
if I understand your evidence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Head office in Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.  Could I just explain here.  If I 
receive authorization, it is authorised for the requisition of a vehicle 
- for that I have to have authority from head office.  It was done in 
writing or by telephone.

ADV FORD: If the Commission will bear with me.  The reason I 
am asking Mr Nieuwoudt, is that this requisition which is being 
handed in as an exhibit, is signed by - I don't know if it is signed by, 
but the authority appears to have been given by General Van der 
Merwe, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And what was his position at the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think he was the Commissioner of Police.

ADV FORD: Do you have any reason to believe that he would have 
granted such authority without being fully aware of the nature of the 
operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.  I can't comment on that.

ADV FORD: Were you ever in other circumstances required to put 
in requests for air tickets and the like?