Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I remember that he was moved from the communal ward to a single ward and I know that his parents had been, or his mother actually, had been informed that he was in hospital.  But being a Section or Article 29 detainee, he was by law not allowed to communicate with anybody and that was the reason he was moved to another ward.

MR FORBES: So maybe within that context, can I just ask again if you remember threatening to use the wet bag method on me again?

CHAIRPERSON: Was that whilst you were in this ward by yourself?

MR FORBES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: About how many months after you were arrested, could that have happened?

MR FORBES: This was in the third month, just after I tried to commit suicide, I was taken to hospital and this is where it happened.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he threaten or did he actually do it?

MR FORBES: He threatened, he had the wet bag again and the idea was that I could maybe also ask if Mr Benzien remembers saying that I may have tried to commit suicide because there are things that I am still not talking about and that he basically want to continue with the interrogation and find out a bit more.  And that was when the threatening and the wet bag was brought into play.  Do you perhaps recollect any of those incidents?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, I do not recollect this, because I do not think it happened at all.

MR FORBES: Maybe at this stage ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Forbes, what was the nature of your complaint for which you were in hospital?

MR FORBES: I tried to commit suicide.

CHAIRPERSON: And you injured yourself?

MR FORBES: No, I took I think it was for some reason or other arranged that I was to get tablets every day.  I never used to take the tablets and prior to the 16th, I took an overdose of Pethidine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORBES: Members of the Committee, maybe at this stage, I would just like to say in conclusion maybe that I personally share the view that many people or victims that went through Captain Benzien feel, in the sense that we are prepared to consider the aspect of amnesty, but I think it is only on the condition that there is a full disclosure.
	I think within this case, I mean I can't say that I feel satisfied.  I mean there are aspects, basic aspects of the assault and the process of interrogation that I would have been subjected to, that I would almost think that Captain Benzien would agree to and help us to understand what is the kind of processes that many people in the country may have been subjected to.
	Now, at this point, I am not a qualified Judge and it is not easy for me to extract the information from Captain Benzien, but I think at the end of the day, I can't say that I feel satisfied that he has been telling the truth about what exactly had taken place.  So that is a bit disappointing at this point and I don't have any further questions, except to thank the Commission.

MR FORBES: .

JUDGE WILSON: Oh, could I before you stop, find out, how long were you in Section 29 detention for?

MR FORBES: Six months?

JUDGE WILSON: That would be up till October?

MR FORBES: October.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you go on these trips that he has been telling us about?

MR FORBES: That is correct and the way I understood it, it was always after an assault and the idea was that like I said, for the injuries that may have been sustained, to heal.  And I think even with the suicide, the Doctors that came that morning, actually discovered some of the medicines that were bought at the chemist.
	That is on record and I think those were things that were bought and we were doctored in a sense, during these trips to various parts of the country, and until such times your injuries healed, you would be brought back to go and see a District Surgeon.  He would discover no wounds and things would appear as if things were okay.

JUDGE WILSON: How long were the trips for, one day, two days, one weeks, two weeks?

MR FORBES: About a week or sometimes more.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you stay in police stations?

MR FORBES: I think on most of the occasions it was in police stations, although it was in police kind of, sometimes it was in the police quarters, so it would just be probably Captain Benzien, maybe somebody else and myself in the barracks area.

JUDGE WILSON: And were you seen by District Surgeons at these places?

MR FORBES: Usually not, no.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, your full names please.

MR KRUSE: Gary John Kruse.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Kruse, you may proceed.

MR KRUSE: Jeffery, I think I want to first, before dealing with my case, I want to deal with the methods you people used generally, within the Protection Services, within the Security Branch.
	I am a bit fortunate in a sense that I am in the Police and I know how the systems work now.  And I am also aware that most of your systems are documented.  And I know you are only part of a broader system.
	And I think for us in a new South Africa,  we would like to know what system, I would want to know what systems were used, so that they are not continued to be used in the future.
	We know the issue of physical torture was only one of the means you and your team used to extract information and get evidence before courts.  The first thing I want to know is who was your team?  Who did it consist of?  I read the document, it left out many names which I don't think it can be difficult for you to remember, who you operated with.
	So I want to know who the complete team was and the command structure of that team?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The command structure was Lieutenant Liebenberg.

MR KRUSE: Who did Captain Liebenberg report to?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I already said, to Major Smit.

MR KRUSE: Major Smit, it is now Commissioner Smit at the moment?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: Who did he report to?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I presume to the Commander of the Security Branch at that time.

MR KRUSE: Who was that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There were numerous Commanders?

MR KRUSE: At that stage, who was the Commander?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am thinking that it was Brigadier Strydom, it could have been Strydom at that time.

MR KRUSE: And he would report to the Provincial Commissioner?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I presume so.

MR KRUSE: And National Commissioner?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I presume so.

MR KRUSE: State Security Council?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Concede.

MR KRUSE: You see, what I want to know is whether these methods you used, was sanctioned by the State Security Council and the Government of the day, that is the first thing I want to know?

JUDGE WILSON: Can we go back a minute.  This Smit you were talking about, you said now Commissioner Smit?

MR KRUSE: He is presently Assistant Commissioner in the Police.

JUDGE WILSON: That is not Basie Smit?

MR KRUSE: No, that is not the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would be mere speculation to say that these people knew or did not know about these methods.
As you rightly know Director, the foot-soldiers did the work, the hierarchy kept their hands clean at all times.

MR KRUSE: Jeff, you are applying for amnesty.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir.

MR KRUSE: There are certain preconditions I think, for amnesty if I understand the Act correctly.  I am not an expert, but I think one of the factors is that there must be a political motivation.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Correct.

MR KRUSE: And I assume that if you apply for amnesty, that would have been policy, the torture would be part of the policy, but from what you are saying that there was no official policy that came down in terms of the Act, but you acted on your own will.  You thought that there was a need for you to do this?