Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Joseph was present most of the times.

MR MADASA: No,  that's not my question.  What did you tell him, De Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja, but that's why Joseph knew what kind of information I gave him about guns.

MR MADASA: You gave De Ru information about guns?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja.

MR MADASA: What about guns?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: About the certain guns we are going to bring in and that we need money, you can't just get those guns for free.

MR MADASA: Did you tell De Ru that you were MK members?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, never.

MR MADASA: What did you say you were to him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I don't think I ever said anything to him what I am because he never asked me.

MR MADASA: On what basis were you dealing with him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: At first I worked with him through Vosloo of the Diamond and Gold Branch.

MR MADASA: You worked with De Ru?  With Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, not directly.

MR MADASA: Did you supply information to the police about your members?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

MR MADASA: What did you do, did you give information to Fouche about your activities?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Fouche was part of us so we didn't have to give him any information.

MR MADASA: Did you tell the applicant, De Ru, about your activities?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, he never asked me about my...

MR MADASA: Did you ever talk to De Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I spoke to De Ru.

MR MADASA: About what?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: When he asked me about some diamonds that I knew was in Everton, so he asked me to go and fetch them and he introduced me to a Sanna and one day we went to his house, together with Josesph.

MR MALAN: Sorry, he introduced you to who?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Warrant Officer Vosloo.

MR MADASA: Did Vosloo tell you that he killed your lover boy?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja, he did say that.

MR MADASA: Why did he tell you that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That he killed my lover boy?

MR MADASA: Why did he tell you that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I don't know.

MR MADASA: What was the story with your lover boy being killed by him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I don't know what was the story, that's why I'm here today, I also want to know what's the story about it.

MR MADASA: Do you know if Fouche had a problem with Joseph, cheated by him or something like that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I don't know.

MR MADASA: Is that lover boy Joseph?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It must be Joseph, there's no one else.

MR MADASA: Pardon?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It is Joseph.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that you and Joseph had an affair?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MADASA: Sorry Mr Chair.  Thank you Mr Chair.
	Did Fouche tell you the reason why he killed Joseph?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

MR MADASA: Did he ever accuse him of having done something before?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Not that I know of.

MR MADASA: Were they on good terms, Joseph and Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It looked like that.

MR MADASA: Was Fouche present when the Toyota was robbed?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: When?

MR MADASA: Was a Toyota robbed, firstly?  The one that was used at a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Robbed or stolen?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Toyota?  No the Toyota they give back to us - I know it's a stolen car.

MR MADASA: Who gave you the car?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Seuntjie.

MR MADASA: Who?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Seuntjie.

MR MADASA: Who is that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: One of those members, ja.

MR MADASA: One of your members?  But you knew it was stolen?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja.

MR MADASA: Which car is that, is that the one that was involved on the day of the shooting?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, that was the red one, the red one.

MR MADASA: And then the yellow one, do you know where it was found?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was stolen the evening before the robbery.

MR MADASA: By whom?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: By all the members, I was also present.

MR MALAN: Was Fouche also there?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes he was also present.

ADV SOGODI: So you do know why the yellow car was stolen?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was stolen specifically to be used in the robbery.  They didn't have a vehicle which they could use.

MR MADASA: Sorry, I wish to refer you to page 137 of your statement.  Paragraph 29, the underlined sentence.  Page 137, paragraph 29.  You see that?  There Fouche is supposed to have said he wanted to get Joseph because he, Joseph, had cheated him on a transaction at Lesotho?  Do you see that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I do see that.

MR MADASA: Did he say that to you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes it's in here then he did say that to me.

MR MADASA: He did say that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MADASA: So is it possible that there were activities that Fouche was involved in but you were not aware of?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That can be possible.

MR MADASA: Why?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Because they used my car for a week, I wasn't present.

MR MADASA: And where is the car?  What happened to that car?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It got stolen.

MR MADASA: Was it later recovered?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Recovered, ja.

MR MADASA: What was the story about it, what were you told about it as to what had happened to that car?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was in Natalspruit and they said that there were weapons in the car and I could not get it back.

MR MADASA: Who was using the car?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Joseph and Chris.

MR MADASA: And Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja it's Fouche.

MR MADASA: Chris Fouche, oh.   That's the story you got?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes that was the story.

MR MADASA: Do you know anything about the involvement of the police in your group whether your group was involved with the police or the police involved with you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I carry no knowledge of that.

MR MADASA: Except Fouche of course?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja.

MR MADASA: The other, do you know?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I do not know.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, just two or three questions.
	Ms de Lange, the statement on page 254 of the thick bundle, do you have that in front of you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you stick to the contents of that statement?  So are you still convinced that what you said here was correct?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Are you referring to paragraph 4?

MR STEENKAMP: No I'm referring to the whole statement.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, I stick with that.

MR STEENKAMP: In all great respect then I do not understand your evidence today and I would like to read to you paragraph 4.  Paragraph 4 Mr Chairman
	"According to me they were not involved in political 
	activities"
and today you are saying under oath that they carried cards, they were members of the ANC.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It doesn't mean if you are a member of the ANC that you're involved in politics and that you are going to kill people, how many times must I say this.  You might be a member of a party but it doesn't mean that you're involved in killing of people with regards to politics.

MR STEENKAMP: So why did you not mention that in your statement, why did you choose to say that they were not involved with politics at all?  Why didn't you say in your statement that they were card carrying members.  Do you understand my question?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I understand the question.

MR STEENKAMP: Why is there a difference in your evidence?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Probably because it's four years ago and I'm sitting here today.

MR STEENKAMP: Which of the versions do we have to believe?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They were not involved in politics, they did not kill and rob for the sake of politics.

MR STEENKAMP: The problem I've got with that is that even Fouche, as I listen to you today, even Fouche says in his statement that the deceased were not involved in politics?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, they were not involved in politics.