Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

MS MTANGA: My next question is, in trying to understand what exactly made the Amabuvo your enemies, is the act by Bheki Msamango and his group of splitting away from the ANC that made you regard them as an enemy or political rival or is it the fact that they starting launching attacks against your group that made them rivals to you?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: They were enemies because they were fighting the ANC which was our organisation and they said they belonged to the SACP not ANC, that is what I think that led to the conflict.  It is not only for Bheki, Bheki took the firearm from the organisation and he was not supposed to do that because the firearm did not belong to him but it belonged to the ANC but he managed to take that firearm and establish a group called SACP outside the ANC and without the permission of the ANC therefore he broke the ANC structure, that is one of the things that made us not to be in good terms with them.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying that the rivalry arose because Bheki had left the organisation and taken weapons with him, not necessarily because he attacked you?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He was a commander, he was an ANC commander.  They started their own group because Mr Mkhize who was a chairperson that side they did not want him at that time as there were allegations that were going on about him.  I don't know what their intention was for them to establish their own group.  I don't know what his intention was.

MS MTANGA: Mr Madlala, is it their act of leaving the ANC that made them your political rival or is it their attacks on you that made them your enemy.  What is it exactly that made you as an organisation as ANC, the original organisation, regard them as an enemy.  Is it the fact that they left the ANC or is it because they later attacked you?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It is the act of the attacks that made us to see them as enemies because they were always fighting us all the time, that was the reason, that is the act because they wanted to destroy the ANC.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Moodley, emanating from Ms Mtanga's questioning, do you have any re-examination?

MS MOODLEY: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose not?

MS MOODLEY: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr de Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Madlala?

MR DE JAGER: Yes please.
	Mr Madlala, you had education, you were in grade 12 when you were arrested, is that true?  You can read and write?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes I was in grade 12.

MR DE JAGER: Did you complete your amnesty application?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Someone was writing and I was talking.

MR DE JAGER: Now I would like to refer you to page 14.  I know that's a translation where according to the translation you said
"I was with Happy Aubrey Mngomezulu when we went to Escourt to buy stock for the sparza shop.  It was a Friday.  On our way home the IFP supporter had been mad fighting.  There was turmoil and confusion, shots were fired, we ran and the police caught me"
And according to paragraph 10(a):
"The leadership has caused all the ordeal, those of the IFP against those of the ANC.  There was fighting everywhere at taxi ranks, etc."
And then on page 16:
"There was fighting everywhere in Escourt, taxi ranks were divided into two, there was one for the ANC and one for the IFP."
And then can you remember that you've also completed an application for indemnity?  Can you remember that?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, I would like to comment about that.

MR DE JAGER: Yes okay and in that application you also referred to an IFP member that was killed and not to a member of the alliance.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't Mr de Jager assist Ms Moodley by referring her to the page of the indemnity application that he's referring to?  It's the indemnity application that's translated from page 35?

MR DE JAGER: Ja, the translation is from page 35.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE JAGER: And it's on page 35.  The end of the fourth paragraph
"While the fighting continued I heard a big noise gun sound and we fled.  During that incident one person from the rival Inkatha died."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE JAGER: Is that correct?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I would like to comment about this statement that you've just read to me.  What I can say about this statement, the one that I made.  Yes, I made this statement, I had some doubts in my mind at the time.  This statement that I made, the one that I made under oath is the second one but the first one I had doubts in my mind.  I did not have in depth knowledge but at least know I have more knowledge and I know that I have to tell the whole truth.  I am doing that now as I've just explained now in this affidavit.

MR DE JAGER: Yes but at that time you had knowledge of what happened and what was in your mind at the time of the killing and according to that you killed an IFP member?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, as I've just explained that I had doubts in my mind.  At least now I am confident that I can tell the whole truth in this statement, the last statement.

MR DE JAGER: Right and then ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr de Jager, can I just get more clarity?  What doubts did you have in your mind?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I did not know - first of all when I was doing this application, I did not know exactly what this TRC was all about but after some time I knew that disclosure was a requirement, it's not like in the court situation where you have to protect yourself because you if you don't want to be convicted I realise that here I have to disclose everything.

MR MALAN: I thought if you would comment you would talk about the - tell us the reason why you said it was IFP?  Can you tell us why you said it was IFP?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: You meen the deceased?

MR MALAN: Yes.

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: What I can say, I used to see them going to IFP, I cannot say they did not have good relations with them because I used to see them in good terms with the IFP people, therefore I took it they were more like friends.

MR DE JAGER: So you believed that when you killed him that he was a member associating with the IFP or was in fact an IFP member?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: No, not at all.  I knew him as a SACP member.

MR DE JAGER: Right, then I want to refer you to page 30.  That's an affidavit you made last year on the 18th November.  There in paragraph 2 you said
"I wish to say the truth as I lied in my application form for amnesty."
You start off with that in paragraph 2 and then in paragraph 4, the last sentence:
"The deceased was with some of their followers shouting and passing bad remarks about our organisation.  I then shot him.  Happy was also in possession of a firearm but it refused to work."
Is that the truth?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He fired with the firearm, he attempted but it failed to discharge and the bullets were scattered around and the spring fell off but he attempted to shoot.

MR DE JAGER: Didn't he shoot in fact?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR DE JAGER: Didn't Happy fire shots?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He shot.

MR DE JAGER: Now why did you say the weapon refused to work, it didn't shoot, the bullets fell on the ground?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He fired with the firearm.  As he was still firing the bullets fell on the ground.  He couldn't continue with the firing therefore I had to do the firing.

MR DE JAGER: Didn't you shoot before Happy shot?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He first fired and I later fired after him.

MR DE JAGER: Well I want to refer you again to paragraph 4, page 30
"I then shot him.  Happy was also in possession of a firearm but it refused to work."
Where did you say that Happy fired any shot?