Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: During the night, we normally lock those gates.  I realised that they did not open the gate, they just jumped the wall.  Vileam was armed with an R4 or R5.  He was having that firearm when I was going to my room, he was with me also.   I dressed up.  I went out, he took me to one of the cars outside.  On our way in Zwelitsha, we met with a car that I identified it as Brigadier Condo's car.  It was also driven by Police.  The Police that were with me in the car, stopped.  They talked to the others and they told them not to continue because I was with them in the car.  I was told to alight from that vehicle, to get to the other one.  The car left and the way that this car, the manner this car was driven, an owner of a car would not do that to his own car.  It was even difficult for them to stop at the robots or traffic lights.  It stopped at Brigadier Suys' place, even there, they went inside but they came back saying that they couldn't find him.  I went to clarify that I couldn't identify these Police, I only knew their faces.  We left there for the College.  Even there, I was pointed with a gun, I was pointed at with a firearm to get inside.  They said here is one of them.  I went up, joining the other Police Officers at the podium.  I am certain that we arrived at the same time with Captain Sawuti because when I was there on the podium, he was here next to me.  I was given a microphone, but after Captain Sawuti refused to talk through the microphone, I was told to identify, to introduce myself or identify myself and tell the people about my rank and where I was based.  I did so.  I sat down after that.  When I looked at the situation, it was such a confusing situation because the other one would raise another subject and the other one would say something else.  What I grasped there in that process is that they were talking about the moneys that were embezzled or (indistinct).  They were talking about pension funds or pension moneys.  The time was about half past three.  I went towards the direction of the toilet on the podium, I sat there.  I went out at about five, that is when I saw Brigadier Nkani and Brigadier Giba being brought inside.  They were not coming in voluntarily.  They were driven with R5's and R1's or something like that.  They were also taken up to the podium, they were given the microphones, they were questioned about the money.  At about seven o'clock in the morning, Jurgens came.  They had told them that they were waiting for Jurgens to decide on those cases.  Jurgens came, he told them that what they were doing was wrong.  He was being forced to take a decision about our cases.  He said though he couldn't take any decision, but myself and Captain Sawuti and Captain Dolweni and Captain Gqibithole, we had to be charged for fraud.  He said that he was doing all that under pressure, and we were supposed to pay for bail and we were not supposed to be arrested or being put behind the bars.  There was excitement in the house, we were driven out, it was myself and Captain Sawuti, we were taken into a van and inside that van Kopel came and he took us out of that van, he took us to some car or vehicle.  We were taken to Bisho Police station.  When we arrived there, we were charged and Gen Nqoya came and Dolweni and Makwethu.   It was realised that there was no court in Zwelitsha, we went to Jurgens to ask him what is it that he was going to do about the situation.  He told us to pay the bail at the Police station and he told us that the bail shouldn't be more than R100-00.  He told us that he couldn't do otherwise, but we should be careful after getting out of that place.   We paid the bail.  I went home.  That is the end.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, who is Jurgens, what was he?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: He was the Attorney General.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Obose, any questions?

MR OBOSE: No questions for this witness, Your Worship.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Panel, any questions?  Thank you.  Re-examination?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Adoni, you are excused.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nompozolo, is there anything else that you can do, or does that take care of those witnesses that can testify at this stage?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, my position is that there is one, Dolweni, I am intending to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is he able to testify at this stage?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He is able to testify at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, very well.

MR NOMPOZOLO: There is only one who is not able to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolweni then.  Please give us your full names.

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: Xolisele Coleman Dolweni.

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dolweni, it is common cause that during March 1994, you were a Policeman in the then Ciskei?

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: It is also common cause that there was a meeting at Bisho Police College?

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: Chairperson, I don't have any knowledge about the meeting because on the 22nd of March 1994, I was in court at Zwelitsha.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  What was your rank then?

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: I was already a Captain.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, what happened on the 22nd of March 1994?  The 23rd, sorry.

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: On the 23rd, at about quarter past seven, I was going through the Parliament gate, I was going to my office.  Inspector Luwana called me, he was with Inspector Gola, they were driving a kombi, a Husky.  Inspector Luwana came to me, he told me that all the Police were at the Police College, so he told me to get inside the car to go there.  Indeed as he said, I got to the car, we drove to the Police College.  When we arrived at the Police College, we found out that they were leaving for the stadium, they were going to the stadium.    He told me not to get out of that car, because we are going to the stadium.  We went to the stadium.  When I arrived at the  gate at the stadium, Inspector Matigani arrived.  He told Inspector Luwana that he (indistinct) arrived at the Police station, Major Kopel told me that Mr Jurgens had decided for us to be charged concerning the money that we were accused of.  They took my finger prints there.  When we finished there, we were taken to the Supreme Court to Mr Jurgens.  We met Mr Jurgens there, he said to us he knew that we were Police.  Because of the pressure that was imposed on him, he was forced to prosecute us even though he did not see the docket yet.  He then told us to pay money, bail money of about R100-00.  We paid that money at Bisho Police station, we were then given a date on Monday, to go to Zwelitsha Court.   That is all, sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Obose, any questions?

MR OBOSE: I have no questions for this witness.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO