Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ADV GCABASHE: Just one aspect.  Is it possible that though you were a shop steward there may have been a different grouping that was a little more militant than the bigger grouping of shop stewards and maybe that militant group, I'm just speculating, is a group that the applicant belonged to?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, that may have been possible.  We could be in the same committee but if we'd not perceive things the same yes, some people are likely to move a different way.

ADV GCABASHE: Is it possible that a group of shop stewards could have taken a decision to deal with the attackers in the same way the attackers were dealing with them, is that possible?

JOSEPH MABASO: That is up to the people as to how they perceive a situation.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you then saying that that might have been so but you don't know about that?

JOSEPH MABASO: As I have said I really don't know.

ADV GCABASHE: You can however say that when you came to give the report back to the workers after seeing the ANC, the applicant was one of the persons who you reported back to or would have been part of the group who you reported back to?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, because he was not party to the delegation to the offices.  We gave them a report back when we came back.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Mabaso, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Mabaso, have you listened to the testimony about a number of incidents where members of FAWU were attacked and some killed, allegedly by members of the IFP?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I did hear that testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that that was what happened?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, some people died, as you have just indicated.

CHAIRPERSON: The advice that was given to your delegation when you visited the ANC offices, can you tell us what was that advice, what did they tell you?

JOSEPH MABASO: When we arrived and told them about the situation at the office we used to phone them before coming, telling them about the situation.  They sat us down and we discussed and we discussed that it would be better if a peace committee was summoned, discuss so that there should be peace at Langeberg.
	Board were drawn and put on the wall to this effect, that all the shop stewards who were committed to peace should attach their signatures to that black board.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you given any advice about your response if you are attacked, if you are under attack?

JOSEPH MABASO: Would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any advice given to you in this discussion at the ANC office what you should be doing if you are being attacked?

JOSEPH MABASO: After our discussion we decided that only the peace committee can bring about peace and should we happen to be attacked we should make it a point that we move around in groups, use transport and not travel on foot.

CHAIRPERSON: What about defending yourselves?

JOSEPH MABASO: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What about defending yourselves, was there any discussions around defending yourselves against these attacks or warding off these attacks?

JOSEPH MABASO: No, nothing was discussed to the effect that we should attack but it was indicated that it would not be possible for us to be attacked if we were moving around in a group and using transport at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: So was there no discussion about you defending yourselves against these attackers at all, apart from walking together in large groups?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, the important thing was that we should move around in groups.  We would see how to get out the situation ourselves as adults.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no idea, even if you were in a group and you were attacked, you had no preconceived plan or no idea as to how you ought to be dealing with
that situation?

JOSEPH MABASO: As I have indicated it was up to an individual to see what to do under such circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, have you got any re-examination?

ADV STEENKAMP: No further questions, Mr Chairman.  May I ask if it's possible that the witness be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabaso, thank you very much for giving evidence.  You are excused from further attendance at the hearing.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further witnesses from myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, are you in a position to address us?