Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-11

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Madunu?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Matthew Phosa?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mandela?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, is there - are the people who are now leading people in public life and in Government and who were members of the ANC, were they all housed in Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I would say the majority of members who are now cabinet members were housed in Shell House, Trevor Manuel, Gill Marcus, Jacob Zuma, I think majority of the leaders of the ANC were then housed full-time in the ANC office.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what security was there at Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: On the normal day there would be about a compliment of 20 people who would work there on a normal basis to do access control and other things.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were they all trained security personnel, or were they all members of the ANC, what was the position?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were all members of the Department of Intelligence and Security and they were all based in the Security Department.  Their training varied, some members were members who came from out of the country who had military training out of the country, some members were trained internally, some of the members were inherited from the company which worked there when the ANC took over and thought it would be inhumane to throw to the streets.  We then inherited those members and re-trained them to stay on at Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many entrances were there to Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There were the front entrance which is the formal entrance people use, there was a formal entrance to come in by car at the back and also a formal exit entrance for cars at the back and then there were about three or four other entrances which came via the shops around Shell House itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what street was the front entrance?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The front entrance was in Plein Street and for the cars, the entrance and exit was in De Villiers Street at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: What street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: De Villiers.

GEORGE BIZOS: The garage entry and exit gates in De Villiers Street, were the roller-shutter doors shut on the 28th?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: The main entrance on Plein Street, what control was there to stop, we're not interested about individuals or small groups which I presume the ordinary security apparatus such as there are in this building this morning for us to come in, don't concern yourself with that for the time being, what security was there to prevent any large crowd that would want to attack the building and the leadership, to stop them from doing so?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, I took over the deployment of people, which I'll explain in more detail later.  We worked on a plan which is commonly used which we call three circles of defence.  We had the inner circle which would be the people inside the building with the leadership on various floors, we had the middle circle of security which would be the people in the foyer, should people come through the glass, and then what we call, we have the last line of defence which is the strongest circle, which is the outer circle which under normal circumstances we would have put right around the building but because we were not a statutory force and there was no way to retreat from, we used flanks on the front of the building and a group directly in front of the doors in the foyer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Before we go into any detail, you told us that the election was about the take place.  How important was this election to you personally?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As someone who grew up under very difficult circumstances and also for someone who grew up in the movement for many years, I grew up in the movement, it's the only thing I've done for many years, and that's the culture I grew up in, election was always the ultimate thing for us as a movement and for me as a person.
	For the movement in us, something that I never thought would come in my life although we always had the slogan, and when negotiations took place and this dream, our free and democratic country coming into being, came about through negotiations, it's a feeling which is very difficult to explain and the feeling we had when we went to election because I know where I come from, areas where I have gone to Northern Province where people drink out of waterholes and together with animals, that suddenly we'll have a Government in place which could make a difference to those people's lives.  Maybe not immediately, but over a period of time, change the lives of our people.  
	We'll have a secure - a police system and a Justice system, maybe not immediately but over a period of time we'll have something which represents the aspirations of the majority of people in this country and it's something I hold dearly and it's something I think I was prepared to die for but I was not prepared to lay down my life unnecessarily for that process.

GEORGE BIZOS: You speak about the movement, where you an active member of an organisation other than the African National Congress?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I worked within the Mass Democratic Movement in the Youth League from a very early age in Cape Town, part of the UDF, part of church organisations, I worked in NGO's in the poor areas in the African townships in Cape Town, so my involvement in politics was not limited to the ANC but also to Mass Democratic Movements within the country itself.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you for the first time hear that there would be a meeting, a march organised by the IFP for the end of March?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not sure of that but I think this was public knowledge, it was in the newspapers, we spoke about it in the office, but I think at least a week prior to that we were aware of the march that was about to take place in town.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it going to be in Johannesburg?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did that give you any apprehension as the Deputy Head of Security or as an individual?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Any march by the IFP in town would always be a concern for us.  There's been previous marches in town where window panels of ANC headquarters had been broken and cracked.  There's been mass destruction in previous marches by IFP through town.  I remember specifically around the issue of the signing of the Peace Accord at Carlton Centre, what happened after that event, what happened to the hawkers on the street, what happened to people fleeing down the streets in Johannesburg, so there's always apprehension when the IFP gave a march in town.  There would always be concern around that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you had any personal knowledge of what happened at Boiphatong?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, Chairman.  I was called out early in the morning, me and a colleague of mine, Thabo Khubu went out to Boiphatong, we were phoned by a journalist and we went with two members of our DIP Department, which is the Department of Information and Publicity, people with cameras.  When we arrived there we drove through the township and we saw the mass destruction left behind by the IFP people going through with their weapons.
	I'm also aware that there were many people charged with that event and I know a few people were convicted of that event from the hostels nearby, but to see people maimed, killed, children, women, I think there was no, just indiscriminately people were killed, and that always sticks in my head when I think of people with dangerous weapons marching through town, what they can leave behind if they really want to.

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you regard as dangerous weapons?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Spears, assegais, kierries as they call them, firearms, knives, pangas, things which can cause destruction and kill people.