Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, because he was not one of the task force commanders because we also had, I also had by the time the task force commanders locally.

ADV SANDI: Before you said they must go and attack Mr Franciscato, had you ever given an instruction to Mzuamadoda Yengeni?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No.

ADV SANDI: It was the first time?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was for the first time I nominated them, elected them to be involved in an operation.

ADV SANDI: After the attack on Mr Franciscato, did you give any further instructions to Veveza Yengeni?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No.

ADV SANDI: That was the first and the last instruction you gave to these two gentlemen?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What information did you have about Mr Franciscato, why did you say they must go and attack there?

TAMSANQA DUMA: After the reconnaissance by their commander, Mr Biko, he told me that there is also another place which he knows that it also has arms and that place is, should be easy for him to operate there because that area is out, a little bit out of town, close to the station which is that station also close to the river so it will be easy for their way out.  And then I said to him: "You can also nominate it as a first priority".

ADV SANDI: So when Veveza and Yengeni got involved in this attack on Mr Franciscato, there had not been any direct communication between yourself and any one of them?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, they knew nothing about the operation, they were just waiting to see me and instead they saw Mr Biko.

ADV SANDI: How did you make them aware that they should expect to meet you at this place, how did you communicate that to them?

TAMSANQA DUMA: As I said before, I sent one of our comrades, PAC member because we used to do so if we want to meet.  I just gave the place and sent someone to the comrades that I want to see them at that place and give the time then they usually too would do the same thing.

ADV SANDI: Were you aware of the long records of previous convictions in respect of Biko and Veveza?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, I was not aware because they were under the control of their task force commanders of which they didn't come and report to us that someone was not present.  Because for instance, Mr Veveza is staying a little bit far in the township, in the village, so we, he'll just usually meet with me during the time we are in the bush.

ADV SANDI: In the context of those problems you say prevailed between the PAC and the ANC in that town of Fort Beaufort, would anyone have given instructions to Biko, Veveza and Yengeni to do anything by way of being part of the solution to those problems?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I can't say yes, because what I know and what I did, I was busy, ordered their commanders what to do because I knew that during that time the SDU's as well as the marshals, the so-called Amabutofenci(?), were busy making their sporadic attacks so I was busy teaching them how to react against those attacks and so on.  So I really don't know what was their command to their task forces but I was very close with the task force commanders by the time.

ADV SANDI: As far as you know the policy of your organisation, what is the position regarding persons with long records of criminal convictions?  What is the attitude about such people?

TAMSANQA DUMA: We don't recognise them as the freedom fighters although we understand that we regard them at the ...[indistinct] but we don't agree with them to do such acts of theft and rapes and so   on.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that your organisation would somehow find itself embarrassed to be associated with such people?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes, but if someone has joined the PAC, even if the PAC who was recruiting that person was fully aware or is being aware that the person is like this but he, one thing we understand is that a person can reform if there's someone who can show him the right way and he also accepts that this is the right way which the person is busy recruiting him for.

ADV SANDI: If a member of a task force who I'm sure you'll agree, is involved in sensitive operations, if that person disappears for a number of months, is that something that would cause a raising of eyebrows as far your commanders would be concerned?  Would that be a matter of concern?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I think we have rules under the problem of the people who defy the rules of the APLA task forces.

ADV SANDI: I'm not - sorry, I'm not talking about defying, I'm talking about a person simply disappearing, would that be a matter of concern to you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Duma.

ADV DE JAGER: How many weapons were you handed?

TAMSANQA DUMA: There were four.

ADV DE JAGER: What kind of weapons?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was a long rifle, 2.2 with two triggers and two barrels and 3 pistols.

ADV DE JAGER: No shotgun?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was a rifle, 2.2 and three pistols.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you handed money on that day?

TAMSANQA DUMA: The following day.

ADV DE JAGER: The following day.  How much?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was not too much, I think round about
R1000, 3 or 4.

ADV DE JAGER: Round about R1 300,00 or R1 400,00.  For what purpose was this money?

TAMSANQA DUMA: They told me that they have money ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Who told you that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Mzuamadoda, the youngest one, Yengeni.  Of which the money was with him and then he said he wants to hand over this money to me and I said: "No, no problem you can hand over the money".

ADV DE JAGER: Did he tell you where he got the money from?

TAMSANQA DUMA: He didn't inform me.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you suspect that he got the money from Mr Franciscato?

TAMSANQA DUMA: By the way I was thinking.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you think he got the money from Mr Franciscato?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give any instructions about taking money from Mr Franciscato?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, but I was not against that because I knew that we didn't have money and if the fighters are in the operation and they got money, it is good for them to grab that money so that we can sustain the armed struggle.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you ask him whether he's handing over all the money that he'd taken or didn't you ask him?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I didn't ask them, money.

ADV DE JAGER: So maybe he'd taken R10 000,00 and he's only handing R1 000,00 to you, you wouldn't know?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: On going to Mr Franciscato, how did you know he had weapons?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Mr Biko informed me about this house of which it was not the real main target of that day but he gave me that information that there is also a house, this place.

ADV DE JAGER: What was the real main target on that day?

TAMSANQA DUMA: At that day I told them that I want them to go, I want him to do this operation in town and in town I knew that there are people who used to be in front of a museum in Durban Street at Fort Beaufort.  They used to pack their cars there of which during the night they guard the museum because there are also some guns and so on there.
	And from there, if those people are there, definitely the station wagon car which will be packed  under the tree, that is the very car which it had a lot of weapons and in the same Durban Street there is a house next to Savoy.  I know the guy is working at Ellerines and he's a soldier, he's a part-time soldier and he has a lot of weapons because someone was working there in the garden and he bring the information and he went there looking for a job deliberately so that he can collect the information I was looking for.  And then he gave me this information that no, there's another house because his mother was working there.  
	So in his reconnaissance he has discovered that that house it will be the first easy target for him, so I gave him that house as a first priority.

ADV DE JAGER: And why didn't you give him further orders later on?  You've testified that was the only mission he had been ordered to carry out.