Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-26

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mrs Sekhopa, we welcome you here today.  Can you hear me?  Are you hearing me in Sotho through your earphones?

MATHABISO MARIA SEKHOPA: I can hear you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You have come today from Rouxville to tell your story, which relates to the burning of your house.  Before you tell us that story please can you take the oath.  There's no need to stand up.  I see that you have difficult in standing.

MATHABISO MARIA SEKHOPA: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax now will help you in giving your evidence today.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Good morning again, Mrs Sekhopa.

WITNESS:   Good morning, Sir.

MR LAX: Thanks once again for coming.  Before we talk about the incident you've come here to tell us about can we just get from you a small picture of your family please.  Are you married?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am married.

MR LAX: Is your husband still with you?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: And how many children do you have?

WITNESS:   We have five children.

MR LAX: What are their ages please?

WITNESS:   The other one was born in 1960, the other one was born in 1966 on the 8th of June.

MR LAX: That's two.

WITNESS:   The other one was born in 1968.

MR LAX: If you don't remember the others it's ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   In September, on the 22nd. Right.   ---   The other one was born in 1971, on the 5th of February, and the other one was born in 1981 on the 3rd of February, and the other one was born in 1990 on the 26th of January.

MR LAX: Are the two younger ones still at school?

WITNESS:   Three of them are still at school, Sir.

MR LAX: And the older two?

WITNESS:   They are working for themselves, Sir.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... at all, or your husband?

WITNESS:   My husband is working on a farm and I am also working.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Let us then turn to the incident in September 1990 in Rouxville.  What was happening in the township at that time?

WITNESS:   In 1990 it was in September on the 22nd.  It was on Sunday.  I was in the house.  My husband was working outside.  I was staying with my two children.  The other two were not inside the house.  It was at about half past three.  The Mangese family, their shop is next to my house - Alina Matsimela, Senela Mangese and Popo Mangese.  When they come they were having stones.  They threw stones at my house.  They broke all my windows.  I was in the kitchen then.  I took my children and put them under the table, and then I was looking.  They broke, then from there they went to the shop.  They came again and threw stones at my house up to half past three.  After that they went back.  I didn't see where they went.  I took my children.  I said to my daughter she must go and fetch a blanket for me so that I'll be able to carry the small one.  After we went outside the house to my next-door neighbour.  I sought accommodation at my neighbour.  then I said to my neighbour, "I don't know what is happening.  I don't know where I am going to sleep."  She said, "I will give you accommodation up to the following day in the morning.  Whilst I was still at her place up to the morning, before then, whilst I was still there, my daughter went outside and then she drank water, then returned and said, "Our house is burning."  When I looked through the window I could see that the house was burning.  There were some boys whom we were with at my neighbour.  While we were outside I heard somebody say, "Here they come."  We returned to my neighbour's house.  Then I said to those people I was with in the house that they leave my house to burn, otherwise we will be at risk.  We were even afraid to go outside.  The following day in the morning we went outside.  We looked at my house.  We saw police surrounding the house.  I took my children and went to my parents' house.  That is where I stayed.

MR LAX: Mrs Sekhopa, who was - you say that when you went there were a group of boys.  What were those boys wanting to do?  Were they wanted to help you, or what exactly were they wanting to do?

WITNESS:   They were trying to help me.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... out the fire?

WITNESS:   Yes, to put out the fire in the house.

MR LAX: Who threatened them so that they had to go away, or you had to go away?

WITNESS:   We didn't see the person who threatened us.  I just only heard a voice when he said, "Here they come."  Then we ran back to the house.

MR LAX: You didn't actually see who it was?

WITNESS:   We didn't see who was threatening us.

MR LAX: Now, what were the police doing surrounding your house?

WITNESS:   They were inspecting the house.  We left them in my yard and then I went to my parents' home.

MR LAX: Did you speak to the police and complain to them, or ask them to investigate this?

WITNESS:   We were taken to the police station and then we made a statement, but there was no progress thereafter.

MR LAX: So the police didn't do anything about your case?

WITNESS:   They didn't do anything about my case.

MR LAX: Do you have any idea why that was?

WITNESS:   I have the knowledge why they didn't do anything, because my children were fighting with the ANC and those people were calling themselves Inkatha.

MR LAX: So were your children ANC Youth members?

WITNESS:   Yes, my children were ANC Youth members.

MR LAX: And these people were Inkatha, you say.  Who's "these people"?

WITNESS:   The Mangese family.

MR LAX: So, if I understand from what you're saying, there was a conflict between the Inkatha people and the ANC people?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true, there was a conflict between the two organisations.

MR LAX: What was the root of that conflict?

WITNESS:   On the Saturday when they were burning our houses, on Sunday we were burying ANC people, three ANC people.  I think the conflict started there.

MR LAX: How did those people die, the three ANC people?

WITNESS:   I was at a distance.  I just learnt that these people were shot by Mr Majola and company.

MR LAX: When you say, "Mr Majola and company," what do you mean?

WITNESS:   It's Mr Machona.

MR LAX: Machona.  But what do you mean, him and his company?

WITNESS:   They were shot by Mr Machona, and my children were there, and I didn't know anything because I was staying in the house.  I was fine in the house.

MR LAX: So is that when this conflict started, when the shooting happened?

WITNESS:   After that shooting the conflict started, but it started on Sunday.

MR LAX: What was the shooting all about?  Why was this person shooting at young people?  What were they doing that he had to shoot them?

WITNESS:   I don't know what was the reason, but there was no unrest and the situation was just normal.  I don't know the reason behind his shooting.

MR LAX: Now, you've said that the police didn't do anything because these people were IFP.  What do you mean by that?

WITNESS:   It is because we see them doing nothing about our case.

MR LAX: Do you think if you were IFP the police might have done something about the case?

WITNESS:   I believe that if I was an IFP member maybe the police would have done something.  Because we were members of the ANC the police didn't do anything about the case.

MR LAX: What was the approximate value that you lost in that fire?  I don't expect you to remember the exact details, but just rough figures.

WITNESS:   Are you referring to the value of the lost property?

MR LAX: Of the lost property, the damage to the house.  Rough figures.  It's impossible to remember everything.

WITNESS:   The house was totally burnt, and the property inside the house was totally burnt, so - the whole building was totally burnt, and the property inside was totally burnt.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... property now?

WITNESS:   I tried to renovate but I am now left with the debt for renovating the house.

MR LAX: Sorry, I just couldn't hear the translation.