Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR KADES: I appeared at that trial and I defended the accused, I had in my possession a statement which I had taken from Katiza Cebekhulu stating precisely what I had read into the record.  The position was that we had reached the last day of the trial and I had intended to call Katiza Cebekhulu but he was not available at court and I then said to the State prosecutor that this would necessitate a postponement because I considered this to be rather essential evidence insofar as the defence was concerned.  He then asked me what it was that the witness would say.  I told that - I mentioned to him that that was what the witness would say, he said that he was aware of that information and that the State would therefore make that admission, and the State therefore made that admission and it was no longer necessary to call Katiza Cebekhulu, and the matter went on to the records.  After that had occurred, as I recall, it's been some years of course, Katiza Cebekhulu arrived at court but it was not necessary to call him because the admission had already been made.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Any other questions.  Yes please go ahead.

MS HASSEN: Haisena Hassen, I represent Charles Zwane, also known as Bobo.  I'd like to place questions to all the members there, I will keep it very brief.  I would like to start with Sibusiso please.
 Sibusiso I am led to believe that you and Bobo, also known as Charles Zwane came from the same neighbourhood and that you were friendly with him and that up to this day you are still friendly with him, is that true?

MR S CHILI: Bobo was never my friend, I just knew him, we greeted each other as usual.

MS HASSEN: Do you know if he was a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR S CHILI: Yes I know that.

MS HASSEN: Did you ever see Bobo surveying your house before the bomb attack?

MR S CHILI: I don't remember.

MS HASSEN: To Mrs Dudu Chili, can I ask you the same question and Mrs Barbara Chili as well, you can answer in turn.  Did you ever see Bobo surveying your house before the attack, surveying the house?  Standing around your house, you said that carried on for a week in your evidence to this Commission.

MS D CHILI: Can you repeat your question.

MS HASSEN: Sure.  To put it another way, you said that members of the Mandela United Football Club were standing around your house having - trying to see whether Sibusiso was there, who was there, whatever they were doing around there, did you ever see Charles Zwane doing the same thing?

MS D CHILI: It was difficult to see because they were hiding their faces, it was really difficult because some were having scarves hanging along their faces and when they see us coming out they would turn and give us their backs.  So it was very difficult to identify them.

MS HASSEN: Alright.  I won't elicit your comment on this Barbara.  What I just need to ask from you is whether you said in your statement or in your evidence now to the Commission that you saw a tall man with a balaclava on and a long coat during the attack, on the night of the attack, in other words another man with a gun, was he identifiable to you in any way as Charles Zwane also known as Bobo?

MS B CHILI: No I did not see him because he was hiding.  He hid his face.  I did not see him and his face was covered and it was at night.

MS HASSEN: Just two more questions.  Sibusiso did Bobo ever speak to you about your conflict with the Mandela United Football Club before the incident of the burning of your house?

MR S CHILI: Yes I met Bobo but I was not at home.

MS HASSEN: Alright, so you did know Bobo then?

MR S CHILI: Yes I knew him.

MS HASSEN: Alright.  To Mrs Chili and to the rest of the Chilis, Bobo gave evidence at this Commission that despite his convictions he denied that he was responsible for the bombing of your home and inter alia for the murder of Finkie Msomi.  Do you people want to comment on this?

MS D CHILI: We don't want to comment on it.

MS HASSEN: Thank you.  No further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mr Unterhalter before I ask you to come back again I think I will give the panel an opportunity to ask any questions and I will start with Ms Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Dudu I just have two questions.  One, Todo of Mzimhlope what was his proper name?

MS D CHILI: I knew him by the name Todo, but I have just gathered that his other name is Oupa if I am not mistaken.

YASMINE SOOKA: So your Todo is also the Todo that people are talking about.

MS D CHILI: Todo, yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Also in cross-examination Mr Semenya implied that you did have a long-standing relationship with Mrs Mandela, after all of this had happened did you ever approach Mrs Mandela directly to discuss this matter with her?

MS D CHILI: As I have said that the first instant when I discovered that they were wanting to kill Sibusiso I did go to Mrs Mandela to approach her about it.

YASMINE SOOKA: No I am actually asking if, once the house had been burnt and Finkie had been killed was there any approach made by the Chili family to Mrs Mandela?

MS D CHILI: The what family?

YASMINE SOOKA: Your family.

MS D CHILI: I was the one who was mourning Finkie's death here. Finkie was killed and I had expected that maybe Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela would say maybe it was a mistake, but it never happened.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you approach the Crisis Committee or any other community leader because from what I understand you yourself were also a member of Fetro at the time, was there any approach made by the organisation to try and do some kind of - to assess what could be done after this attack?

MS D CHILI: After the bombing of the house I was displeased for a long time until the unbanning of the organisation, that's when I had a hope that maybe the ANC may be in a position to resolve this problem, but nothing happened.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Mrs Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson.  My first question is directed to Mr Sibusiso Chili.  Sibusiso how reliable were your informants that a verdict has been pronounced that he should be killed?

MR S CHILI: The person who came to tell me was Dodo.  He did not even come to me, he told my mother, I only heard from my mother.

MS MKHIZE: You think there were some other young men who had not joined the Football Club and you were not the only one who did not join the Football Club, why were they after you specifically?

MR S CHILI: I was suggesting that they should ask the one who gave the orders for me to be killed.  There is nothing I can answer thereof.

MS MKHIZE: Dudu do you think when looking back now maybe Stratcom was involved because it's like you were a leader, you were within the same organisation as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and something happened which you both cannot explain, and it led to a point where there were deaths on the part of the Football Club and also on the part of your family, I mean is it possible that there was a Stratcom agent fuelling something?

MS D CHILI: The word Stratcom it's a new word to me.  I have not been aware of any Stratcom, it's just a new word to me so I wouldn't say it could have been responsible.

MS MKHIZE: At that time, well okay maybe you didn't, when you look back now even the security agents, if you were both activists in the area and also you had been detained is it possible that an agent interfered especially if you both cannot explain what was the cause of this animosity which developed?

MS D CHILI: If there was no Football Club I would have thought that way.  But now there was a Football Club which Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela was responsible over it, so I don't think I would have thought otherwise.

DR BORAINE: Dr Randera.