Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Can I call Thozamile Clement Ndabeni?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndabeni, which language are you going to testify in?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
	Mr Ndabeni, you made an application for an amnesty and you are approaching the Committee today to consider your application.  For record purposes, can you confirm whether you were born in Transkei during 1963, on the 7th of April?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: You are applying for this amnesty on the basis that the offence which you have committed was committed with a political motive.  Can you explain to the Committee whether at that period you belonged to a political organisation and the nature of your involvement in the organisation in question?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, I was a member of the ANC.

MR MHLABA: You indicated in your application form - in this regard I refer the Committee to page 13 of the paginated documents, that is in paragraph 9(a)(ii), that this offence was committed on the 4th of the April month, is that correct?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, it was on the 4th of April.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee the type of offence you have committed and the circumstance in which it was committed, including when and how it was planned.

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, I can explain to the Committee.  There was violence in Thokoza.  I was staying in the hostel.  I arrived there in 1986.  I was working in the mines.  I stayed in the hostels and in 1990 violence started.  I was running a business and one morning in 1990 in the hostel some of the people were killed there because of the violence.
	We then moved to Polla Park and violence continued during that time.  And while violence was continuing we received help from other people in that fight.  We were then supposed to take part in that fight.  Ndabeni had a business next to Inanda and he was a commander there in Polla Park.  He had businesses all over, even in Secunda.  He asked us to go to Inanda.  He told Sebenzile and then he came to me concerning the vehicle.  I told him that I had a problem with the car but we can use it to that area because his car was also involved in this violence.
	There were eight of us.  He told us that we would pass through Bethlehem to get money there.  We arrived in Bethlehem in the morning at about 10 in the morning.  And the person we were looking for we didn't find at that time, he was at his work.  We then slept there because the previous night we didn't sleep, we were patrolling the whole night.
	When this man came back it was about two, we decided to leave.  Whilst we were on our way Johannes Nxala was showing us the way and there was a problem because the money was not, he did not get all the money, Sebenzile did not get all the money he was looking for.  Then we would drop Nxala because we saw the road to Natal.  He was supposed to get out of the car, go back to the township.
	Then there was this conflict between the two of them.  They told me to stop the car and they got out of the car, the two of them and the people at the back of the car, Fokazi and them they saw that there was a conflict between these two.  I then saw Mandla Fokazi and Makhura and Nxala leaving and they were trying to talk to Sebenzile.
	When they were leaving we found out, Sebenzile then said that these people are wasting time.  He told us to follow them because where we stopped it was a T-junction and there was a gravel road.  I used the road they were using and there was a straight and the other road was facing the other way.  
	There was a problem with the brakes.  I opened the bonnet and the others were looking for these who left because we couldn't see them.  We took the other road and there were two roads there and we couldn't see them.  I continued driving and there were bushes and we couldn't see where the road went.  I then made a u-turn back.  We then decided to return back because we didn't see where they were.
	We saw a police van.  I then slowed down the car because I wanted to see which road this police van was going to take.  We then realised that it was coming towards us.  In the front seat I was together with Joe.  Joe then said that these people are coming to us so I must take off the number plates and put the other ones because we had spare number plates.  I did that.  While I was still doing that - while I was in the car trying to leave they then came and blocked the car. 
	I went out of the car, they were speaking Afrikaans.  I couldn't understand them.  I lifted my hands and then they shot at that time, they shot twice.  And then I was facing towards them, I saw them going back and the people at the back of the bakkie were shooting to the police.  I saw the police running and some of them fell.
	Nozulu then took out a gun, then came back to me.  He told me we should leave and then we left.  I then saw that I could not go back to Bethlehem and then I could not go to Natal, I decided to take the way to Lesotho.  We then took the road towards Lesotho.  While we were still on that road when we were about to get to Ficksburg, when we were about 20 kilometres to Ficksburg I then decided to stop the car.  There was nobody commanding me at that time.  Joe was shot at that time and there was a bullet in his leg.
	I then made a u-turn and they told me to go forward.  I didn't listen to them.  There was a golf on our back.  When I was making this u-turn this golf followed me, they tried to shoot and this golf was following us at that time.  The people who were with me tried to shoot back at this golf.  I then realised that the brakes were not working at the time and then I told them that.  I told that the car did not have petrol anymore.
	We then got out of the car, we went to the hill and there was a hole.  We went inside that hole.  At about five - it was about five at that time.  We stayed there until about nine at night.  I told them that we should go because they would throw handgrenades on us.  When we were leaving the police were all over.  It was about 11 or 12 at night at that time.
	We ran out of that hole and then realised that there were police all over.  Mac Gregor was shot when I was trying to help him, to run with him.  Those who were in front of me, Nozulu and Joe, I didn't see them in front of me at that time.  There were police lights.  I then decided to leave Mac Gregor.  I told him that he should do, he must see what he should do.  
	I went to the dam and then I stayed there for two days.  I got out of that dam in the third day.  That is all.

MR MHLABA: When you got out of the dam is the moment when you got arrested?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, it was when I was arrested because I went out of the dam.  I wanted to run away then the people from the farm told the police about me.

MR MHLABA: You have talked about a golf which was following you, can you clarify whether there was any shootout between yourself and the golf, did you fire at that golf and do you know if anybody was hit?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: We tried to shoot at this golf but the people in the front were not able to shoot at this golf, so we couldn't.

MR MHLABA: Are you telling the Committee that you are only aware of an incident where somebody was injured at the first shootout, that's when the police approached you and you shot and killed one police officer and the gun was taken from you?  Is that the only incident you can tell us of?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, one person was shot in our group at the time of the shooting with the police in Bethlehem.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to your namesake, Ndabeni?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I saw Sebenzile Ndabeni in the mortuary.  I saw him there, he was shot.