Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NORMAN ARENDSE: I want him to comment on the person who was on duty that night cannot recall anyone, including you, coming there and reporting this incident which you alleged you saw on the night of the 30th of December 1993.

MR SIBAYA: Are you asking me?  They didn't believe what we said, this is why they tore the paper.  They did not record anything, they just wrote my name and address on a piece of paper, not even in a book.  He is the one who said, who referred Nongausa to my house.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now on that paper you said there were three things written on there, the name Heidelberg, a stadium and the name Observatory, is that right, you said was written on the paper?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now why would a policeman who is at Guguletu, presumably knows Cape Town, why would he conclude that this Heidelberg is in Gauteng did you say, or up-country rather, sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Well hardly a matter for him to answer.

MR SIBAYA: They said that we are telling them a false story.  They said that we were not telling the truth.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya are you sure that that night of the 30th of December 1993 at NY121 you went to a house which was a facebrick house, is that right?

MR SIBAYA: At night it looks like a facebrick house.

INTERPRETER: The witness did not understand the question

NORMAN ARENDSE: You said in your statement ...(intervention)

MR SIBAYA: When I looked at it, it looked like a facebrick house at night, however, the second time I went it looked like a painted house.  It was the only house with a light paint that night.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well just for the record Mr Sibaya you were taken to this house you alleged you were at that night, where you went to knock, you were taken there you remember, you were taken there by the investigator Mr Killian, do you remember that?

MR SIBAYA: Yes I remember.  I realised that the house is painted.  When I saw it that night I thought it was a facebrick house.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So you accept that there is no facebrick houses in that road?

MR SIBAYA: It is a painted house.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did Mr Segal, the late Mr Segal, did he take you to the Heidelberg Tavern at any stage?

MR SIBAYA: No he took me to 129 that was at - he said that I must go and show him the place.  I told him that I was confused because I didn't know the area clearly.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So you went there immediately after - was it before you made your first statement on the 5th of January 1994 or was it after you made the statement?

MR SIBAYA: I went there the following week after I had made the statement.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay you went there the following week.  Now why then, to come back to the facebrick, why do you mention in August 1997 when you made the second statement, why did you mention a facebrick house?  I can understand if you were now confused or not sure that on that night whether it was a painted house or a facebrick house, but now you in fact had the opportunity of going there after you made the first statement, and then in '97, this year, you mention the facebrick house.

MR SIBAYA: I am saying to you I thought that night it was a facebrick house.  However I realised when I saw it during the day that it was a normal painted house.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well the point is you then had an opportunity of going there in 1994, early in '94, shortly after the Heidelberg Tavern incident, so you've now seen for yourself, ah I may have been mistaken, and I can understand that, but now you come in 1997 in August and you make an allegation about the facebrick house.  How could you have made such a mistake?

MR SIBAYA: Are you saying that in 1997 I said it was a facebrick house again?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes you in fact never mention a facebrick house in your first statement in 1994 but in 1997 you mention a facebrick house.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I just want to put it to him, it's not really a question, in 1994 on the 5th of January you made a statement, okay, you never mentioned a facebrick house.  Shortly after you made the statement Mr Segal took you to NY29 and you pointed out to him this house.  You must stop me if you don't agree with me.  Then you say, ah, it's not a facebrick house, it's a painted house.  In 1997 you make another statement and then you mention the facebrick house.  Were you mistaken or did the person who took down your statement did that person take it down wrongly?

MR SIBAYA: I think it is the person who took the statement because Mr Segal showed me the house.  I realised later on that it was not a facebrick house.

ADV SANDI: In other words Mr Sibaya you made a mistake to think that it was a facebrick house?

MR SIBAYA: Yes I made a mistake.

ADV SANDI: Now can I ask you, should one infer from that an inability by you to see things clearly when it is dark?

MR SIBAYA: I see everything clearly if I focus on it, unless I am in a hurry.  However if I have focused on something it never evades my memory.

ADV SANDI: The white Audi registration, was that vehicle not in a hurry for you to see clearly?

MR SIBAYA: I was in a hurry to see the registration clearly because there was thieving involved, so I thought.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya let's accept that you saw this white Audi and it then sped away, is that right?  And when it stopped at the stop street or wherever and applied brakes that's when you saw the registration number?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just give me that registration number quickly again.

MR SIBAYA: Which one, the white car?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ja.  Without looking at anything.

MR SIBAYA: XA12848.

JUDGE WILSON: Was the white car travelling in a northerly or southerly direction?

MR SIBAYA: It was facing south, it then turned and drove towards the north.  However it had to stop at the corner so that it could turn.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya did you say that you, what was your answer when my colleague Miss Qunta asked you whether this other dark car had a number plate, did you give her an answer?

MR SIBAYA: I did not look at the number plates.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I didn't ask you whether - what was on the number plate, were there number plates or didn't you notice?

MR SIBAYA: I did not notice.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now I can understand the white car speeding away and then the car is out of the picture, but now you had every opportunity, this dark sedan, this dark car was standing there, you had every opportunity and I can also understand that you didn't want to go near the car because you now saw allegedly these arms, rifles, guns, but you had every opportunity to observe this dark car, why can't you say whether it had number plates or not?  I am not even asking you the numbers this time.

MR SIBAYA: I applied my mind to the other registration number.  I did not think, it was not my train of thought at the time that I should look at the other number plate because I thought that car belonged to soldiers therefore the police would not need the number plate as such.  I would have confused myself if I had done so.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya I want to show you the car that - I want to show you two photographs and ask you is that the car that you saw?  Mr Chairman I was under the impression that it was part of the bundle but I see it's not and these photographs come from the - those photographs I am showing to you now.

MR SIBAYA: The darker car is facing towards my left, this is the car.  We were behind it.  The people emanated from the other car.  After that they went - they moved from one car to the other.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is that the car?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter cannot hear the speaker clearly.

MR SIBAYA: The car at the top is the car, that is the one that they emanated from, the darker car.  This is the car.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay.  Now can you just hand that back so that I can hand it up.  Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It will go in as Exhibit F.
EXHIBIT F HANDED UP - PHOTOGRAPH OF MOTOR CAR