Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MR WILLS: Finally on that point, there were certain investigations done by the ANC concerning the whereabouts of these two comrades shortly after their disappearance and these investigations went to, well sorry, covered the area of the purchase and sale of that car.  They approached Dan Perkins Motors in Durban where the car was purchased from and asked them for their records of the sale of this car and that the result was that no record whatsoever of this sale could be found.  My question to you is, did you or any member of your unit approach Dan Perkins Motors or do anything in order to cover up the disappearance of the records of the purchase and sale of this motor vehicle?

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson, we did not.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

MS THABETHE: Mr Botha, I'm going back to the meeting between Ndaba and Shabalala.  Do you know what the meeting was going to be about, or rather let me rephrase my question, did Ndaba tell you what the meeting between him and Shabalala was going to be about?

H J P BOTHA: Just that it would be a meeting between the two of them.

MS THABETHE: And you didn't inquire what the meeting was going to be about?

H J P BOTHA: No, I was not aware of the detail.

MS THABETHE: I'm just going to clarify a few issues and then I'll come to the dates because I want to clarify dates as well.  Would I be correct if I say the subsequent arrest that happened on the 12th of July were as a result of the  information that you were given by Mr Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: No, the arrest of Nyanda had it's origin after the surveillance which du Preez and Wasserman conducted of him.  He became aware of it and that led to his arrest.

MS THABETHE: Were any arrests done on the information that you had been given by Mr Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: The individuals who were arrested afterwards were indeed names that were mentioned by Ndaba, but the arrests followed from Nyanda back to his safe-house where he lived.  Other people were present in the house who were arrested, namely Raymond Lalla and the other participants in Operation Vula arrived at the house where they were arrested and the same day Pravine Gordhan was arrested at the apartment in Brickhill road, I think with another person and it lead to a whole chain reaction of arrests.

MS THABETHE: Now I'm coming to dates.  Of course, taking into consideration what I've asked you, you say, I just want to clarify something, you say on the 7th of July 1990, on paragraph 7 you say there was a briefing between you and Ndaba, you had a meeting where Ndaba told you all the information about Operation Vula.  That's correct, isn't it?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, after we arrived at the safe-house.

MS THABETHE: The same day, 7th of July 1990, in paragraph 14 of your statement, Exhibit D, you talk about the fact that Mr Ndaba was mistakenly arrested.  Do you remember that?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MS THABETHE: Same day as well, 7th of July 1990, on paragraph 22 you talk about the fact that you telephoned Mr Steyn, was it Mr Steyn?  Just hold on, I want to confirm that.  Sorry, my mistake.  Paragraph 22, you say, same day, 7th July, Ndaba told you of his meeting with Shabalala.  Now I've given you three incidents, I want you to tell me which one occurred first.

MR LAX: Just to help you, so you don't mislead yourself.  You did phone Gen Steyn on the same day.  It's in paragraph 20.

MS THABETHE: I am indebted to you Mr Lax.  So it's 4 incidents.  Let me just repeat them quickly.  It's the meeting of Ndaba with you, it's the arrest that took place, it's the telephoning of Mr Steyn and it's the information that he gave you, that is for a meeting with Shabalala.  Can you possibly tell us how it happened, which occurred first?

H J P BOTHA: Firstly Ndaba was arrested and he was transported to the safe-house where he informs me...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Sorry, I don't want to cut you, can you just give indications of ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, the witness is giving the answer.

MS THABETHE: Can my colleague give me a chance please?  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just formulate your question one by one, instead of putting a composite question.

MS THABETHE: It's part of what he is going to answer, I just wanted to say to Mr Botha that can he also give specifications of times when he talks about the incidents, so it is in relation to his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: You want the date and time.

MS THABETHE: Yes, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is possible, please tell us Mr Botha.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, the arrest of Ndaba took place the same morning, I would say in the vicinity of 11 or 12 o'clock.   I was at the Security Branch offices.  He was afterwards transported to the house in Verulam.  He informs me about the meeting that he has with Shabalala.  I contact Gen Steyn.  Whether I contacted him before he told me or after he told me, but I contact Gen Steyn and within approximately 2 hours of our arrival at Verulam safe-house, we departed to the meeting point with Shabalala.

MS THABETHE: Right.  I get the clarification of that.  Now I'm going to ask you about what happened after you had come back from Pretoria.  You say you spoke to Mr Ndaba about the fact that he had to testify and give evidence in some of the trials that were going to take place, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: I think you refer to the first time I visited Pretoria.

MS THABETHE: Was it the first time or the second time, maybe you can clarify as well.

H J P BOTHA: That is my question to you.  To which visit...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He took two trips to Pretoria, which one are you referring to?

MS THABETHE: Maybe I should ask the question, after which meeting to Pretoria did you speak to Mr Ndaba where he became uncertain of himself?

H J P BOTHA: After both.

MS THABETHE: After both.  My question to you is, what gave rise to this state of uncertainty by Mr Ndaba.  Why did he all of a sudden become uncertain of himself?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, if we deal with the two, with the incidents separately then several factors led to this.  To get clarity do we refer to the first or the second?  In the second instance it was, there was more clarity as to what would happen.  We had already gone through one set where the possibility of being a witness was in his mind and the second instance will be there would be an investigation but no prosecution.  The proposal that I would relocate him elsewhere was not acceptable to him, he was willing to take his chances with the ANC and that led to my decision.

MS THABETHE: You see Mr Botha, why I'm asking you this question it's because I don't know whether it's my problem, I don't understand what made him to panic or what made him to be uncertain of himself after you had explained to him that look the arrests that had occurred, there were not going to be any prosecutions.  That should have alleviated the uncertainties that he had and in a way it would have protected him because he wasn't going to testify anymore, there was no need for him to testify anymore, so why didn't that cool off his uncertainty?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I tried to give that answer this morning.  His own state of mind especially seen in the light that he had worked as an informer and would now be released even if there were no prosecutions, he would still be a target for the ANC and rejection amongst his own ranks is something that added to his state of mind.  Would I be correct if I say that the only person who had suspected thus far that Mr Ndaba might be an informer was Mr Shabalala?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MS THABETHE: Nobody else from the ANC per se.

H J P BOTHA: Not that we were aware of at that stage, yes.