Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: All I can say is that the evidence I gave in Pretoria, the only thing that is true is that I was involved but any other evidence given by me was false.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, perhaps you've misunderstood me.  In Pretoria - let's take it step by step, in Pretoria you told the court that you were not involved but the State witnesses told the court that you were involved.  You know admit, am I correct, that the State witnesses were correct and you were telling lies?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't know whether the Interpreter is giving the right interpretation, but what I'm saying is that whatever was said, any evidence that was given concerning me, the only thing that is true is that I was there when the attack took place.  However, whatever evidence I gave, that I did that and that, was not true.  The truth is what I'm saying today.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just one second Mr Berger.
	Mr Khanyile, maybe you're not understanding Mr Berger properly - carry on Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, when you gave evidence in Pretoria you told the Judge that you were not involved in the attack, that was a lie, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: The State witnesses in Pretoria told the court that you were involved in the attack, that was the truth, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Am I correct then to assume that you now accept what the State witnesses told the court in Pretoria against you, you now accept that that is the truth?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I will try to explain in this way.  Many things have been said by the State witnesses against me, some of which was not true.  I'm saying the only thing that I think they were telling the truth about is that I was involved in the attack at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: When the State witnesses said that in Pretoria, you said that they were liars, am I correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct, I said that.

MR BERGER: Now you say they were telling the truth in that respect but they were not telling the truth in respect of other things which you did during the attack, is that right?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: What in particular do you dispute?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: They said a lot of things about me.  All that the State witnesses were saying, they were just pointing at anybody whom they knew.  To give an example, Mr Qambelani Buthelezi was sentenced to 18 years but he doesn't even know exactly what was happening at Boipatong.  However, State witnesses said he was involved and he did get himself involved in the attack.  As a person who was staying with me in the same house, and a person whom I left while he was sick in bed, and when I came back from Boipatong I found him in the house sleeping.  I'm trying to say Mr Berger, that the State witnesses said a lot of things which were not true.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I didn't ask ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, perhaps to shorten this, would you please indicate to us what it is that the State witnesses said often concerning you and which was not the truth?
Did you understand the question?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I have a problem, I think the Interpreter has given me the impression that it was directed to the lawyer, can you please repeat it for me?

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that, repeatedly I think you have, that the State witnesses lied in certain respects, that is in regard to what you were alleged to have done at Boipatong.  Would you just give us an indication of those respects in which you say the State witnesses lied?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the question?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes.  Firstly, if I remember well there were about three or four State witnesses and all of them said different things, contradicting evidence about me.  One of them said I was holding a spear, which is true.  The other one said I was holding an AK47, which is not true.  I don't remember, the other one seemed to have said I was holding a gun and of which it was not true.  If I remember well one of the witnesses said I personally, when we met with the police, as he was speaking in Afrikaans I don't remember what he said about talking to the white people or the police.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Khanyile, what I don't understand is this, when you answered a question in the form about the things you did in Boipatong, you said
"For further information I annexe a copy of the Judgment"
Now at page 304 of the second bundle, which is page 3752 of the Judgment, the Judge in dealing with you - you were accused number 58, am I correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: The Judge first of all spoke about the evidence of Bojozi who, as you correctly said, first of all said that you were armed with an assegai and a kierrie but then later conceded that he couldn't remember how you were armed.  Then the Judge goes on to deal with the evidence of Mr Moloi who said that you picked up an AK47 in the stadium and the Judge appears to accept that evidence.  What I want to know is why you annexed this as providing further details about y our participation if you don't accept that it's the truth?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Sir, I will say it was by mistake that it was included.  I wasn't aware that that was written, what you are saying was written there.

MR BERGER: The Judge further went on to recount the evidence of Mr Moloi, again which the Judge apparently accepted.  Mr Moloi said that you came to call people in their rooms, telling them to go to the stadium that night.  You told people to put white lappies around their heads and you handed out the Ntelezi, is that also wrong?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say a lot of those things are not true, I mean evidence that was accepted by the Judge.  As I've already given an example of Mr Buthelezi who was sentenced to 18 years and who was said to be present during the attack, fortunately he wasn't there and I would say the Judge made a lot of mistakes.

MR BERGER: Did you call people from their rooms telling them to go to the stadium?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't know under what rank or position I had the power to go around and call people ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just hold it.  Mr Interpreter, we can't hear you, maybe you forgot to press the button.    Please just repeat that answer.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I'm trying to explain to Mr Berger that people won't understand why a person like me should go out and call them to come out because I didn't have any rank or position or mandate to call them out.  All that I know is that at the kwaMadala Hostel we normally called through an announcement on a speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] so that we can make
...[inaudible] would you please answer yes or no?  Do you understand that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] for you to elaborate, I'm sure that your counsel will take that opportunity in re-examination, to request you to explain.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can help this Committee by confining yourself to the answer.  Can we take it that your answer now is that: no, you did not call the people to the stadium?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct, I didn't call people.

MR BERGER: Who did call people over the loudspeaker to the stadium?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I didn't see the person speaking, I just heard the sound.

MR BERGER: You didn't recognise the person's voice, you didn't know whose voice it was?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would like to explain Mr Berger.  This is not a speaker, I would say in Zulu it's a trumpet which you blow and we as inmates at kwaMadala Hostel, when we hear such a trumpet it means that we all should go to the stadium.