Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-26

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman before I hand over to my learned friend, I just want to put this on record 
inasfar as the victim is concerned. The victim is in this matter is a Mr Dondsi Khumalo, who is a 
Councillor in this Council, he knew about this matter since last year I have been in communication with 
him. Today during lunch Mr Chairman I got him on the cellphone to check whether he was on the way to 
the hearing and he indicated to me that he would not be able to attend the hearing he has a meeting in 
Bloemfontein, actually he was on the way to Bloemfontein, but he asked me to put it on record that he does 
not oppose the application for amnesty as done by the applicants.  And further to put on record that he did 
not sustain any injury whatsoever.  And further that actually the Zozo house that was blown by the 
applicants is not his house, they blew a wrong Zozo house, his was the neighbouring Zozo house, so he is 
not affected.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: But what about the true victim then, whose house was blown? 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 225

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What about the?

ADV DE JAGER: What about the true victim whose house was blown, he suffered injuries not the 
supposed victim?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is true, I do not know who the true victims are.  And if I remember from the 
applicants they stated clearly that nobody was injured save that the Zozo house was blown up and even 
with him, he says it was not his Zozo house, and he does not know to whom did that one belong, it was in 
sort of a Zozo houses in a cluster form. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: We will hear about it just now. Will somebody tell us what is a "Zozo" house?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson it is one of these prefabricated houses, manufactured of wood which 
one can move easily from one place to the other.  I can be assembled and disassembled from one place to 
the other and it's 3m x 3m, the one that is involved in this matter.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: One can get different dimensions.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman then the reason why I gave this, I put this information on record is to indicate 
to the Committee that this will then be one of the matters where only confirmation will be involved by the 
applicants.

UNKNOWN: I see. Very well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I would beg leave to call Capt Hechter first please.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If it is Captain Hechter then it would be Page 302.

UNKNOWN: (s.u.o.)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter do you have the application in front of you?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 226

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you affirm the information which is contained in Schedule 24, page 302 of the 
application?

UNKNOWN: That is positively so, Mr Chair.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter I would like to ask you one or two questions in this regard as far as 
paragraph 1 is concerned.  The two activists regarding whom you received information as to their being 
asleep in this house, were they involved in serious crimes?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: How did you receive your information?

UNKNOWN: We at that stage only reacted to source reports and if the source reports indicated that 
these persons were very active in intimidation, burnings, arson etc. then we decided to act on this.

ADV DU PLESSIS: If you page to page 310, will you please do so, there you mention upon whose 
instructions you were reacting.

UNKNOWN: I will stick to that, it was the instruction of Brigadier Victor and Mr Villiers to control 
the situation in Mamelodi.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, the political motivation which you find from page 306 onwards to 
309, do these things agree with the political motivation which you have already testified to in broad terms 
to this Commission?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: With regard to information and dis-information and intimidation?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And also the more detailed information contained on 308 and 309?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 227

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is also correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman I don't know if the  Commission wants any further detailed 
evidence. I don't think it's necessary.

UNKNOWN: I just want to quickly look through some of it.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I mention one thing which might be of assistance to my colleagues.  T this is one 
of the items where there has been alteration and it is on page 23 of that file we were given of alterations.  
The major difference is now amnesty is being asked for damage to property.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes, yes  Mr Chairman. I don't seem to be able to find my list, but that is the 
case.

JUDGE WILSON: It is on page 23 of the bundle.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, that would be correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there not an attempted murder?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chair that has already been contained in Schedule 24 of Captain Hechter's 
application.

ADV DE JAGER: Not on the improved one?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No the improved schedules are just additions, it only contains additions so that which 
had been applied for earlier remained in force, it is just in the schedule of "Additions and Alterations".  I 
am sorry if there is an understanding in this regard.  You will notice that the Committee had asked me in 
October with regard to certain transgressions in terms of specific Acts and that constitutes the core of the 
alterations and this is set out in the schedule.

ADV DE JAGER: I am glad you told me because I thought the schedule was to replace what had been 
stated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, I am sorry, that was a misunderstanding, I didn't express myself clearly. Mr Chair 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 228

UNKNOWN: otherwise my clients are going to be guilty of or going to be taken to task for several murders.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe have you any questions to ask?

UNKNOWN: Very well.  Captain Hechter you are excused and thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 229	W/

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, Warrant Officer Van Vuuren is also 
applying for this incident and perhaps for the formality could I call him as  witness?

UNKNOWN: Yes, and you will refer us to the relevant pages of the papers.

ADV DU PLESSIS: 87, Mr Chairman, yes.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: (s.u.o.)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.	Warrant Officer Van Vuuren, your Schedule 8, 
page 87 contains the same incidents regarding which Captain Hechter has testified now, do you affirm the 
correctness of your whole application?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: It is from page 87 to page 95, is that correct?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 95 you state upon whose instructions you were acting, whose were those 
instructions?
W/

UNKNOWN: It was in execution of a general order from Brigadier Victor and Brigadier Cronje.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But you acted in direct command of Captain Hechter?
W/

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And you also confirm the political motive as set out from page 91 up to and including 
page 94, is that correct?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And do you also confirm the testimony of Captain Hechter with regard to the political 
involvement of the persons who were present in the hut?
W/

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do. That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Were they actually present in the hut?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 230	W/

UNKNOWN: W/

UNKNOWN: Could you please just ask the question again Mr Chair?

UNKNOWN: Were people actually present in their hut.
W/

UNKNOWN: I assumed so, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: When you went there that evening, did you know for sure that they would be in the 
hut?
W/