Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jassat, yesterday when we adjourned, it was understood that you would be afforded an opportunity at half past nine this morning to be here.  We haven't had a word from you as to why you have shown this Committee the courtesy of an explanation as to why you were not here or to apologise for your non-attendance this morning.  It was arranged that you were going to be allowed to question witnesses at half past nine this morning and members of my Committee would like to know why.

MR JASSAT: I am sorry that I haven't apologised.  As you know, I came into this matter at the last minute, as I indicated to you yesterday.  I had other commitments, we had to be in court this morning, and I was trying to get out of a case this morning, but unfortunately it proceeded and finished at eleven o'clock.  Immediately that finished I had no way of contacting the Committee because I did not have a telephone number and immediately I got a call I arrived at this hearing.  To that end I don't want to be disrespectful to this Committee, but I must apologise again.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You say that you came here as a response to
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a telephone call you received from us?

MR JASSAT: Yes, I was on my way here and I got a call as well from a lady by the name of Tando.   I believe that was at the request of Mr Brink.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I was just wondering what would have happened if we had not made a call.

MR JASSAT: I was on my way.   The other difficulty of course I've had is that in preparing for this hearing I had no documentation, I have come completely blind into this hearing and I've come here merely to assist Mrs Jama.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that is the problem;  that's not the problem.  The problem is that it was arranged at half past nine this morning that you would be here.  Yesterday we knew that you had no documents, you made that point yesterday.   We are talking about the fact that you did not attend this morning, nor was there any explanation offered for your not being here.

MR JASSAT: I have tendered an explanation, Mr Chairman.  I was asked to address this Committee in response to the application.  Had I been asked at the initial outset as to why I was not here, I would have explained that.   Now that you've raised it, I have explained it, and I hope you will accept the explanation.  Unfortunately I had other commitments in court.  It wasn't appointments, it was a court matter which should have been adjourned but ....(intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: But why didn't you tell us yesterday about it, you knew about your court appointment.  Why did you agree to be here at half past nine this morning?

MR JASSAT: Sorry, I was told to be here at half past nine.

JUDGE WILSON: You requested the opportunity to put
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questions this morning.  You weren't told.  You yesterday applied to be able to question this morning, do you remember that?  Do you remember asking if you could stand down for this morning to put your questions?

MR JASSAT: I said I was going to take instructions from my client, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Why do that when you knew you had an appointment in court?

MR JASSAT: Mr Chairman, I didn't have my diary with me.  I had come in as a last minute legal representative for Mrs Jama.  I've come here to assist Mrs Jama and to that end I hope I have achieved that.   But I've had appointments made in respect of court matters, those are fixed long before this hearing.  Had adequate notice been given to Mrs Jama and had she consulted me there wasn't a question of probably double-dating so to speak.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to ascertain from Mrs Jama what the age of the late Mr Jama was at the time of his death?

MR JASSAT: I was told that he was born in 1972.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was he still at school at the time?

MR JASSAT: Yes, he was going to go to school.  The reason why he left Richmond was because of the problems that were taking place in Richmond and he had to flee, and that is the reason why he came to stay in the area near Edendale.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a convenient stage to take the adjournment.  We will now adjourn and resume at two o'clock.

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman, just to make sure.  I would just like to hear from you if you have finished with these three applicants and if we can leave for Bloemfontein at this stage.  Very briefly I would like to know if you intend to proceed with the next applicants.
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CHAIRPERSON: Yes, your client's further attendance will not be required.  They are excused and they may leave.

MR BANADE: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION AT 14:00

CHAIRPERSON: Before commencing with the next matter, that of Mr Mzimela, have we ascertained whether the relatives of the deceased or his next-of-kin are present and, if so, what their attitude is to this application?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chairman, I have had an opportunity to consult with the victims, they are here.  It is the wife of the deceased and the brother of the deceased.  Basically what they said to me is, as long as the applicant makes full disclosure of the truth, they don't see why they should oppose the application for amnesty.
	But I outlined to them the function of the Amnesty Committee as a whole and the fact that it might appear from the applicant's evidence that the whole incident was political.  They then said to me they are not aware of such a fact and their only concern with the application for amnesty on behalf of the applicant, and if he is granted amnesty, is their safety.   They are concerned about that.
	I then outlined to them their rights to say something if they want to.  They said they will think about it and they are more interested in hearing what the applicant has to say.

CHAIRPERSON: ... it is therefore not possible at this stage to say whether this application can be disposed of this afternoon, or can we say that?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chairman, I don't see why it shouldn't be disposed of this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, you appear for the applicant in this matter.

MR WILLS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you prepared to proceed with your
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application in this matter?

MR WILLS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you prepared to proceed with your application?

MR WILLS: I am indeed, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

UNKNOWN: s s

MR WILLS: Mr Mzimela, can you tell the honourable Committee as to why you are applying for amnesty?

UNKNOWN: I have come to apply for amnesty with regard to Mr Mkhononodaka Gumede's death and I was directly involved in his death.

MR WILLS: Will you tell the Court the circumstances surrounding Mr Gumede's death.

UNKNOWN: From 1990 when the political organisations were being unbanned, the IFP as a political organisation that existed at the time, we stay in the rural areas at the Chief's place and we believed that other political organisations were not supposed to exist and some people got involved with different political organisations and there was a conflict among these political organisations especially with regard to IFP and ANC.  And Mr Gumede was the Chief's councillor.   He was one of the prominent members of Inkatha in that area.  And as from 1990 there were certain occurrences that took place because on one particular day there was a meeting at the Chief's place Nchinga, and Montunkosi Gumede, who was a soldier, died.  Montunkosi was an ANC member.  Because on that particular day that he died they said that he apparently said he was an MK soldier and they were nothing, that's why they killed him.  And we have a belief that the followers were doing
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this because they had taken orders from their leaders.