Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

CHAIRPERSON: But we have had an enquiry and over and above an enquiry if one of the findings of which was that either the tape went missing or was overtaped, so we on our ...(indistinct) let's forget about those factors which we in fact are in, I mean it's on the record now, we have to consider it in our consideration of all the evidence that has been placed before us.  I think let's give Dr Klatzow and all of us an opportunity to go step by step, one thing we are taking now into account what you have said, but maybe let's take it step by step and see what, I mean, I think here we're talking about something physical.  Was there or was there not a tape that went missing, and all evidence that I've heard thus far including evidence from Gert van der Veer was that there is as acknowledgement that this happened.  The previous witness, there is an acknowledgement that this happened.  So, maybe let's take it step by step. Dr Klatzow?

DR KLATZOW: Thank you, Chairman.  Now, Mr Mitchell, Captain Mitchell, undeniably a tape somehow got out of sequence and went missing.  Do you have any explanation as to how that came to be?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Dr, no, the handing of the tape is not part of - I had people working for me and so I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Was the tape ever handed to you?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I don't know when you say "the" tape, there were tapes handed to me, yes, and ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: The tape from ZUR and the logbook?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: The tape and the logbook were - not together, they didn't come together, we started collecting data in the morning when the sun came, the Administrative Director came and got the medical files and got the training files and ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: That is our information, that is correct.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: And started putting them together.  There's a whole lot of things that came through, it included the log.

DR KLATZOW: And the tape?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I don't think the tape came in then.

DR KLATZOW: Well, do you remember that Captain Jimmy Deal was there at that stage?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I don't.

DR KLATZOW: Jimmy Deal has said that he was there at that stage and he was sent to fetch the tape, do you disagree with that?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm not disagreeing ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: And would it be the sort of likely thing that would have happened?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: It's - Jimmy was then part of Management.

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes, I had that difficulty in the process, but who actually did it, you know, I would say ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: And Jimmy Deal's information is that he handed the tape to you.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Is that true?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Well, I got the tapes, yes ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: You got that tape?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I don't know who brought them to me.

DR KLATZOW: Let's assume Jimmy Deal is right, Jimmy Deal says he handed you, Captain Mickey Mitchell the ZUR tape and the logbooks, not necessarily together, but you had them in your hands.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Probably separately, but I had them in my hands.

DR KLATZOW: Correct, what did you do with them?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: We were collecting all the data, firstly the written stuff put together in the files and the Administrative Director, a man called Dicky Rouxcastle, put it in his office, was alongside mine, and we put them together and locked them up because we knew Rene van Zyl from DCA would be coming and when the tape came, Dr, when, I'm not sure when the tapes came, we took it and locked it up in that file - there was a lock-up file, not a file, a lock-up cabinet in the ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: That is correct.  And who had the keys to that cabinet?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Dicky Rouxcastle.

DR KLATZOW: Now, that tape,

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes?

DR KLATZOW: The last person to have had that tape was you in the official records of this enquiry.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Okay.

DR KLATZOW: When the tape went missing, did anybody speak to you about that missing tape?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Can we rephrase that?

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Alright, I was there when Dicky Rouxcastle put it into the steel cabinet.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Then Civil Aviation came along and I believe in the form of Mr Rene van Zyl and one or two others, and I can't remember, I think a man called Piet de Klerk, I'm not sure of this Dr, I think so.  When he came along we game it to them all, and they signed for it.  So, I'm saying one thing about you said that was the last written record of the event, that's not correct ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: I'll get to that.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: It was signed for.

DR KLATZOW: I'll get to that.  Let me ask you about the tapes.  Describe the tape physically to the Commissioner, is it big, is it small?  It's not a cassette player?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No.

DR KLATZOW: It's a big tape and it has a plastic box ...(intervention)

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: It's like a video, a video, that kind of size.

DR KLATZOW: It has a box that it lives in, is that correct?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes, I think so.

DR KLATZOW: And on that box is written information about the tape, the date of the tape, is that correct?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I know about it, I can't say ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: But you had it in your hand?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: And you would not just accept the tape, you would check to see that it was the right tape?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No.

DR KLATZOW: You wouldn't?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I handed it to Dicky Rouxcastle who wrote the date on his card and put it down there together in the cabinet.  No, I gave it to Dick.

DR KLATZOW: Subsequently it wasn't Rene van Zyl who came and asked, it was Roy Downs who came and asked for the tape.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Okay.

DR KLATZOW: And he was told that the tape went missing.  Did you ever convey that to Mr van der Veer?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Who told that the tape - I'm not aware of this.

DR KLATZOW: Well, accept for a moment that the tape was recognisably missing at the time that DCA made their enquiry, accept that, because that is what the evidence will be.  Did you ever tell Mr Gert van der Veer that the tape was missing?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I didn't know that.

DR KLATZOW: Did Mr van der Veer ever approach you and say, why is this tape missing?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: The next sequence round of this would have been, I know Rene van Zyl came to the office and spoke about it.  I'm not aware of Roy Downs, but there was somebody with Rene, they came to the office and said, what happened to the tapes - no, he came to the office to say it has been blanked over, there's nothing on it.  So I said, Rene, I'm not aware of this, and he then said, no, just explain all that, so I said, Rene, I just really don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Did you ever get in front of Mr Gert van der Veer and explain to him why the tape had gone missing or was overtaped?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I went further than that because Mr Lewis was sort of Head of Air Operations, then I said to him, Mr Lewis, this tape has got nothing on it and he had a work with me, what's going on here.  And then Mr van der Veer, I did - I'm not conscious of talking directly to him, but I do know Viv probably, I'm saying probably, Dr, would have told him, and I know Mr van der Veer said to me, that's not good enough.