Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you did.  There are entries quite clearly on the 18th, he wasn't at work, and on the 19th, he wasn't at work, so you reported him to his Commander?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they arrange to transfer him away from you then?

UNKNOWN: I will not verify that as to whether he just left and then he was, he experienced an accident, but I missed him for some time.

ADV MEMANI: Now, firstly, in your evidence in chief you said that you worked with Mr Ngo until his arrest.  So that was not correct?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Secondly, you told us that Ngo deserted you, it was interpreted as he just left, but you used the Pedi word (indistinct) which would mean that he deserted you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I put it that way, that is the way it was.

ADV MEMANI: And if he had deserted you, then one would have expected you to have expected him on duty on the 22nd and you would have reported his absence from work on the 22nd?

ADV DE JAGER: But he recorded his absence on the 18th and the 19th and he had reported it to his Unit and I suppose his Unit then decided to replace him?

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, if that were the case, his evidence would be I complained and they gave me Rammalo.  He says that he deserted me and yet, on the 20th he was on duty and he went to, and again he was on duty on the 21st and he says he just deserted ...

ADV DE JAGER: Are we not playing with words really.  What are we trying to look at, how relevant is that in connection with the application before us?

ADV MEMANI: Maybe you should have ask them when they led the evidence in chief My Lord.  You remember they said that he was not working with him.

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't the important thing that from the 21st of July 1988, he quite clearly was not working with him for what reason does it matter.  It is quite clear he wasn't, was he?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: May I just ask something for clarification from this witness?  Captain Khoja, did you for one moment at any time think that Mr Ngo was arrested in July 1988?

UNKNOWN: I don't know as whether he was arrested then, I know that he was arrested in regard to Mr Venter's case.  I don't know if he was arrested for any other case before.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am referring to Mr Venter's case.  We have been told at the commencement of the hearing, that he was arrested in connection with Mr Venter's killing around February 1989, now what I want to know from you in order to have certain things cleared in my mind, I want to know whether at any time, you thought that Mr Ngo was arrested before or at the time when Mr Rammalo was brought there?

UNKNOWN: After Rammalo started working with me, he was arrested.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Throughout you have been aware of the fact that Mr Ngo was arrested some months after Mr Rammalo had started working with you?

UNKNOWN: I didn't understand your question clearly.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You have always been aware of the fact that at the time Mr Ngo was arrested in respect of the killing or murder of Mr Venter, Mr Rammalo had been working with you for some months.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you Mr Memani.

ADV DE JAGER: May I just clarify too.  After Mr Rammalo started working with you, and you have testified that at the time of the arrest of Mr Ngo he was also still working for you, in what capacity did Mr Ngo work at the barracks or was he under your supervision or wasn't he under your supervision when he was arrested?

UNKNOWN: This person ended under my control and Unit 19 did not know where this person was, that is why they looked for the duty statements from me.   Because Unit 19 didn't know where he was, I didn't know where he was.

ADV DE JAGER: And then in January/February 1989 did you see him around, just before he had been arrested?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DE JAGER: But you thought he was still, he should still be working for you and that is why you say he had deserted or what?  Because if he wasn't there since July, why do you say he was still working under you at the beginning of 1989?

UNKNOWN: When he disappeared, he was working with me.  When I went to look for him at Unit 19, I didn't find him there, then that is why they said he was still under my responsibility or my supervision.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know what happened to Mr Venter's car?  When was this removed from, when last did you see this car?

UNKNOWN: I saw him the time when Ngo brought it there and when he disappeared, he disappeared with the car.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let me try to understand the way you perceived your relationship or absence of relationship with Mr Ngo after July 1988.
	If somebody had come to you say in November or December of 1988, some months after Rammalo had already started working with you there, if somebody had come to you and said Warrant Officer Khoja, is Ngo still working with you, what would you have said?

UNKNOWN: I would reply to him in this way, that this person was working with me, he disappeared whilst he was still under my supervision.
	Where he was from say Unit 19, they did not know where he was, so that would be my reply.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you wouldn't have said, yes, he is still working with me?

UNKNOWN: I would say that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, really you are confusing me because your first answer was in the past tense, you said you would put it in the past to say that he had worked with you, now you say you would say he is still working with you?

UNKNOWN: I would say that this person, before he disappeared, he was working with me.  I would not say he is working with me whilst I don't see him around.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: All right, I will leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, in your evidence in chief you said that you and Mr Ngo went to the barracks and he worked under my supervision, until he was arrested.  He hadn't been under your supervision for seven months, had he?

UNKNOWN: Physically he was not under my supervision since his disappearance.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps, there is a misunderstanding, perhaps I myself was misunderstanding you.  Do you try to convey to us that he had been under your supervision and he had never been released or legally ...

UNKNOWN: Yes, I would put it that way that under normal circumstances, he was not under my supervision, but legally he was still under my supervision.

ADV DE JAGER: So he wasn't released from your supervision although he wasn't physically there?  In order to leave legally, he should have informed you or somebody should have informed you that he had been transferred to another Unit and nobody informed you that he had been transferred?

UNKNOWN: That is exactly what I wanted to say.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But surely Captain Khoja please, when you were asked these questions last time, it was in the context of wanting to know from you about Mr Ngo's daily movements and you answered that question in that context of conveying to us, to try to convey to us that Mr Ngo was under your physical supervision with regard to the execution of his duties.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct, that is so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you report to Unit 19 that Ngo had left the barracks?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did.

ADV MEMANI: Did you explain, did you tell them  that he was no longer at the barracks and was no longer working with you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I told them that I don't see him around the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Ngo was paid right up to the time that he was arrested?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, with great respect, my learned friend can't just make sweeping statements like that.  His statement to the witness is factually wrong.  He was on suspension without pay at the time when he was arrested, you've got the evidence before you.

ADV MEMANI: That is what Mr Visser has put to Mr Ngo.  Mr Ngo has insisted that he was paid until his arrest.