Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We had different sections working different areas of intelligence and one of the areas was to gather intelligence from Lesotho, others were to gather intelligence regarding the SANCO activities in the different towns or trade unions' movements or church movements or far right-wing activity as well.  I mean there were a whole lot of sections or ground that had to be covered.  So one of these sections was Lesotho and I think if I can remember correctly, on coming to Ladybrand there were only two people working, but now I want to also tell you, working just on the ANC and the PAC and say, the South African Communist Party in Lesotho.  There were other people on the branch that used to go to Lesotho for church matters or for other types of intelligence that we needed and we had to gather, but these people had to concentrate on the PAC and on the ANC and on the SACP and things like that.  And as I said when I got there I think there were only two, that was Toon Jagga and Michael Jantjie.

MR LAX: And just to clarify, these were known as desks.  Every Security Branch that I've ever heard of in all these hearings we've been part of, referred to being in different desks.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Ja, they were known as desks as well.  You had your ANC and PAC desk and you had your ...(intervention)

MR LAX: And that was known as, to use the Afrikaans term "die swartmag" or "black power"?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR LAX: That was that desk and it dealt with those people.  There was another desk that dealt ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It wasn't specifically called the Black Power Desk, I mean I suppose different branches or different provinces for that matter, would have different terminology for it.

MR LAX: Well we've heard that consistently through so many different Security Branch offices.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, we must differentiate between a large provincial office and a small branch, we were a small branch, we didn't have the luxury of allocating people specifically to one desk.  We didn't have enough people to do that.

MR LAX: I understand that, but for your information to be collected in a consistent way, okay, you would have collated it under those headings, because those were the categories that everyone else was using.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.  Perhaps we're missing each other on a point here, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: We are missing each other, that's why I'm trying to say, these things were, there was a consistent sharing of information and a consistent method of collating the information, in other words, of analysing it and making sure that you filled the right holes, so the information went into the right pigeonholes.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that way you were able to make all the necessary cross-references that were required, that's how an intelligence system works.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's quite correct.

MR LAX: And just while we're on this point, if your section, as you call it, was busy gathering information in Lesotho, everyone in your section would have to know what was being collected, so that there could be a consistency of operation, so they weren't messing each other's informers up.  They wouldn't necessarily know that X was your informers, but there were ways of making these things known without necessarily exposing the person.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So, I mean you know, the fact of the matter is that you would have had to brief your members regularly.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, we came together and we discussed matters that were pertaining their different sections, I wasn't just responsible for that section, there were a lot of sections.

MR LAX: No, no, I accept that.  It's just that when you gave your evidence-in-chief you gave the impression that your meetings with these members of yours were very ad hoc.  They spoke about a daily meeting, they spoke about a morning briefing.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't recall that, Chairperson, I don't recall them saying there was a daily meeting or a meeting every morning.

MR LAX: But it certainly is not as hit and miss as ad hoc, you must have had at least a weekly meeting or a fortnightly meeting, where you shared this information in a structured way.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, we used to come together when necessary and discuss the information at our disposal and decide what to do with it and how to utilise it.  I mean that's ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But can I suggest to you, with the greatest of respect, that it wasn't ad hoc or when necessary, you had probably one of two meetings a month or sometimes four meetings a month and it was something you'd have to plan in your diary, so you'd all be able to fit it in.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I think we're talking about two different things now.  The ad hoc meeting was about these people that we're talking about now, the victims, the so-called victims, there weren't specific meetings, detailed meetings that these people would have to attend and so on, about that.  We had meetings concerning the general information gathering process and what was gathered and how it was going to be, to use your own words, the collation of it and the analysing it, on the dissemination of it.  That's true.

MR LAX: So in fact, if you gave us the impression that you only met on an ad hoc basis, that was a wrong impression and that in fact the ad hoc nature of it is when very useful information suddenly pops up, that might form the basis for an ad hoc meeting?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, whenever these people, first of all they'd have to ask permission to go to Lesotho, they couldn't just up and get into the vehicles and go to Lesotho, they'd have to come and report they're going to Lesotho, and once coming back, if it was in office hours, they'd have to come and report and say what they'd done in Lesotho, where they'd been, who they'd seen, what have they done.  I mean that's just straightforward, it's ...

MR LAX: So old Thulo must have reported to you at least three times a week, because that's his recollection that he went to Lesotho at least three times a week.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, he could have done it many more times.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, the suggestion that I want to make out Kadi's statement is that people who were arrested in South Africa who were ANC members or people who were abducted from countries from where they operated from, were in the majority of cases used as Kadi was used, to identify ANC people, to identify their houses, to help with raids and so on, and you did an extraordinary thing of recruiting four people, on your version, kept them for less than a week, the three of them and Betty Boom for about a week, and then you sent them back into Lesotho to operate on your behalf.  What I'm suggesting is that it is really improbable that an intelligence unit headed by a senior person like yourself would have done things that are so reckless.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I think we've covered this, I think I answered that before, that's what happened, we thought it was worth the risk.

MR MALINDI: And what I'm suggesting to you is, these people were never taken back to Lesotho, this is a story, a fabricated story put together to explain away the disappearance of these four people.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, I trust W/O Jagga and I trust W/O Jantjie completely, if they told me they returned these people to Lesotho, I believe them.  So according to me they were returned to Lesotho.