Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

RUSSELL ALLY: Chairperson, we have had a very comprehensive submission from COSATU and in the presentation as well the a - it has been very wide ranging and I can give the assurance that from the Commission's side the submission will be studied very very closely, particularly the recommendations which have been made.
 So, I'm not going to be too long, because we've already been going on for a while, except to make a general observation and then just pose one question, really.
 That is that when we first decided to have this kind of hearing, there was criticism which we anticipated.  Criticism that we were perhaps going beyond our mandate.  That was the one criticism.  The press that you have spoken about, picked up on that, but the more serious criticism against the Commission was, you are going to deepen divisions.  
 Why don't you just focus on this issues that you're looking at?  Why do you want to drag other institutions, other sides or aspects of what happened into this process of truth and reconciliation, because this is just going to create further divisions.
 But I think we were correct in insisting that a hearing of this kind is fundamental, because fundamental to any reconciliation in this country, is dealing not just with the gross human rights violations, as defined in the act, but with the context in which these were taking place and particularly the social economic conditions, because as it's come out very clearly, that this is the biggest challenge to reconciliation, the legacy of which Apartheid has left.  
 Not just around the political exclusion, but more fundamentally around the way in which the majority of people, Black people in particular were discriminated against in the economy, the access to resources.
 If a hearing like this has highlighted divisions, then that is good, because I think that from the perspective of the Commission, we can only really begin to tackle this question of reconciliation if we are honest about how wide the divisions are and how wide the different perceptions are, otherwise we are fooling and deceiving ourselves.
 So, notwithstanding the fact that COSATU in its submission has made very strong allegations or very strong charges and has questioned the bona fides of those, in particularly business, who made submissions, that I think that this is important for us in our work so that we can reflect accurately the perceptions as a bases to proceed for reconciliation.
 It's on that note that I really want to ask for some comment;  that in view of what seems to be these diametrically opposed views, that we've had business come and speak about its perception.  Now it saw its role, and I think that we have to acknowledge that, because business can only speak from the way it saw and understood the situation.
 We have COSATU making its submission which seems they so diametrically opposed.  Our task is to promote national unity and reconciliation.  That's what the act is actually called to establish the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
 Now, in view of what has happened over the past three days, from your side, is there any hope for this national unity and reconciliation or are the positions so far removed that this is an illusion;  that we're deceiving ourselves to believe that there can ever be reconciliation between those who benefitted and those who were the victims of the system of the past?

MR KOMAMA: Thanks.  I think that if you look at our conclusion, in our document, it says
"COSATU strongly believes that big business in our country directly benefitted from the decades of Apartheid, enslavement of the majority.  It would be nice that all of us were freedom fighters as is so often portrayed by those who have been the direct beneficiaries of Apartheid.  In fact, too often we hear the view that I did not know what atrocities were committed in my name to maintain my privileges."
Then we go on to say - then we go on to say that common decency would require the humility of saying, I was wrong and I commit myself to helping make our new South Africa a better place to live for all.
 As raise elsewhere in the whole submission as workers, we will judge South African employers in the bases of full disclosure and how they behave in the future on such issues as basic trade union rights, the closing of the Apartheid wage gap and the allocating of sufficient resources for the training of workers, especially African and women workers.
 The majority of South Africans require no more and no less.  So, can we have reconciliation?  Absolutely.  Can we forgive?  Yes, but I think what we've got to move away from, is a situation that says the natives who were wronged, must reconcile with their oppressors.
 But really that's not what it means.  It means we must reconcile and say poverty is God given in the Black community.  It was not an act of Apartheid.  That low wages is God given.  The fact that many people don't - so I'm saying reconciliation is possible and I agree with (indistinct) and what they said yesterday as that group with the wise men (indistinct), but reconciliation and transformation are the same side of the same coin and I did conclude there by saying, furthermore we are saying it's really the only route to peace and stability, but for that to happen we can bring all workers here, and I think that's really why I'm happy that you did give us some latitude, because our alternative would be to first bring all our unions here.
 Secondly, to bring workers to come here with (indistinct).  If they all came, it would take decades for them to tell their story.  They will forgive.  They will not forget, but they will forgive and reconcile, because we see steps that says we will create jobs.  We will invest in the productive sector of the economy.
 That when COSATU says prescribed as it investment no more into the army, but rather into building houses for people, business will begin to say it is something we need to be able to look at.
 So, the challenge is not with us.  I think the deputy president have already said that really, Whites and White business I would add for that matter, really have to as well extend a hand.  It's possible to reconcile.  Leon Levy, his union was not banned.  It went underground, that is SACTU, because it was hounded by the police.
 But he's back.  He does not show areas of saying he's going to fight everybody.  And indeed we work with this employers, I mean, everyday in spite of the fact that we were denied recognition.
 Take - and that's just my one part - you know, BTR SAMCOR, 13 years the case still continue.  Now of course those people will reconcile, but really before they reconcile they are going to say, but 13 years this (indistinct) our case go through and I think BTR should have been here to say they apologise, because what happened is that after Fina Sebe and other two had been killed in which in the inquest it transpired that they were killed by nine IFP cart carrying members, they asked for the court - I mean they asked for proceedings to be adjourned, because - it was the industrial court - because their fellow comrades had died.
 The company said, no, no, no.  We will reconcile, but it requires a hand and for the past three days we have not seen really an open hand that comes over.  We've seen a hand that says, chaps, forget about the past.
 That which we have accumulated through the past, is ours, it has nothing to do with Apartheid.  Let's see what we can now do together.  How you deal with the recommendation will also help us move forward.
 But we are committed to our country.  We will not allow them to make us not love our country.  We have loved our country and fought for it in spite of that operation.