Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-20

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, did you by this act Mr Matshaya, gain anything personally like being paid for killing these people, this person?  Did you have any personal gain which you got through this because of having done this?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Definitely not, it was our duty.

MR NOTUNUNU: It was your duty?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, Mr Matshaya, we are here now talking and facing a situation where there has been a loss of life, a mother lost a son.  What do you say to that, what do you say to that?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: All our parents did not send us to do such.  The Phungulua family and the Dyasophu family had not sent their children to do what they did.
	I would apologise to the family, I apologise to the family of the victims because we could have also died.  We had to do what we needed to do.

MR NOTUNUNU: What is your words to the family, what is your words to the family of the deceased, what are you saying to them?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: I would like to tell them that it will be all right and apologise for the pain that they felt.

MR NOTUNUNU: Are you really sorry?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, sure, sure, yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: Lastly, what about your co-applicants, what is their feeling in so far as forgiveness you have indicated, which you are extending to the families of the deceased?

CHAIRPERSON: Can he really testify about that?

MR NOTUNUNU: Don't answer that question.  What do you - thank you Chair, thank you Honourable Chair.
	What would you like this Honourable Chair and Panel to do for you, you have made an application for amnesty, what would you like them to do for you?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: We need amnesty because it was a military operation, we were soldiers, there was war at the time.
	We did not do what we did for personal gain, even Dyasophu, we had followed him, we saw where he was going.  We went and shot where he was, and people died.  We ask for forgiveness.  Even the families who lost their people, please may the Judge be aware that this request is from the heart.
	It was even the first time that we had met with these men, it was not a personal thing.  This was all about the country.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair, I think that is all I needed to get from the witness, unless there are some other things of course which I haven't touched.  Thank you very much Honourable Chair, thank you very much Honourable members of the Panel.

MR NOTUNUNU: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matshaya, I am going to allow Mr Mapoma an opportunity to ask you questions, if he so wishes.  He is entitled to ask you.
	Mr Notununu, would you just put off your microphone.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes sir, I've got some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.   You attacked the deceased because you say he was an Askari?  Was Mr Dyasophu also an Askari?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, the both of them, they were Askaris.

MR MAPOMA: Did you make something to establish that they were in fact Askaris, did you investigate that?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: There was no investigation as such, because they publicly declared on TV, the publicly spoke against the ANC on TV, they called themselves the new ANC, that Chairman Twala.  There was a group of them, after they defected from the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Matshaya, what the question is, is that you said that they died because they were Askaris, do you remember?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you described an Askari as a person who is in the same position as the Security Forces who were upholding the apartheid regime.  Not so?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances, the fact that they got onto television, and denounced the ANC, calling themselves the new ANC, how is that upholding the apartheid system?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, they were upholding the apartheid system, because they were part of the propaganda, they did not come to South Africa through the right channels, they defected from the ANC.  They did not come here through ANC channels, the military command, the infiltration that we used as members of MK, we were already inside the country.
	What happened is we just heard that they were arrested for a month under Section 29.  Under Section 29 guerillas would be arrested for up to three years in jail.  The next thing we knew, they were on TV, talking against the same organisation that they claimed to belong to, together with the leadership.
	Certainly then also due to the fact that they were involved in a mutiny and killed people, innocent people, they were forgiven.  After they had been forgiven, they left the rehabilitation centres, came back to South Africa.  Hlongwane, their leader was swearing, saying that, publicly saying that he was going to kill Mandela and Holomisa.
	In that way, I am trying to say that they were enemies already.  I don't know why they came here, they were aware of the situation that prevailed at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I don't understand properly then.  Were they Askaris or were they enemies in their own right?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: They were not just an enemy on their own, if you were in South Africa at that time, walking around with the Security, being helped by the government, it was clear Judge that they were Askaris, working for the Security Establishment of the Boers.
	When they got into the country, South Africa, they came in differently under the Police, they were detained under Section 29, however, even before we knew from the ANC what the position was, they were released and they were on TV, swearing against the leadership as I said.
	They even divulged atrocities that were committed in Quattro, they did not however divulge that they were in a meeting where comrades were killed, and that they were forgiven in a Truth Commission in exile.

ADV GCABASHE: On the same point, can I ask, in the time that you surveiled them, had a look at what they were doing here, were you able to establish who their contacts were locally?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: No,, what we found out was that they would just go to their relatives.  This is why we left them.
	We just wanted the people that were identified as our enemies.  As I said we shot at everything that we found in that yard.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, the applicant said they could have shot at everything that they found in the yard.

MR MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that by the mere fact of their defecting from the ANC, they became Askaris?

ADV GCABASHE: I think he has added that they were associated with the Security Police, that aspect, maybe you want to knit that into your question.
	The other factors he has put in already.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Madam.  Now, let's go to the TV conference.  Was Mr Phungulua personally there in the conference?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Twala was the Chairman, he mentioned the number in the group.  Twala was representing them, I knew that they were a group from exile, that had defected and that they were in the country.  I did not see him on TV.
	They had defected from the ANC and the command structure of MK.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying Phungulua and Dyasophu were also in the group of Twala?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, exactly.  I just wanted to highlight one point, even if they did not come here in one plane, one flight, when they got here, they regrouped with Twala's group and they were all one big group.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Twala a known Askari?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, he was an Askari.

MR MAPOMA: During those years, was there any difference that existed between an Askari and any person that had defected from the ANC from exile?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask something, is there a reason to believe that the deceased and his colleague, were not Askaris?