Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I will explain why I say that because what happened in South Africa at that time was very hurting because most of the people who were killed at that time, were especially black people, because we differ as people, somebody would use that material and use it in the way that he liked, so you would not know what the person was thinking at that time, so my task was to ensure that the person that I gave the material or the weapons, he would use the weapons in line with the instructions that he is given.

MR BERGER: If I understand your evidence correctly, you're saying this was a general approach that you followed in respect of all cadres of MK, it wasn't something that was specific to comrade Robert?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.  More especially in as far as the soldiers who were coming from South African into Botswana, people like comrade Webster, were people who had already received the training and they were always in line with the ANC policy, so when we were addressing them about the ANC guidelines, it was easy for them to understand, because they had already learned about that.

MR BERGER: Now, Mr Pule, you say that, in paragraph 16, that you don't really know or you can't recall specifically what you were doing around June 1986 and you cannot say whether you provided comrade Robert with the materials that were in fact used in the Why Not explosion, but you say it is quite possible that this is so.  Can you elaborate on that for the Committee, why do you say that?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I would not remember everything that I was doing at that time because this happened many years ago.  If somebody says to me that I did that, if he says that I gave comrade McBride weapons at that time when we went to bomb at that place, I would not be able to dispute that.  Like I've already said that I gave different weapons to different individuals.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Berger.  Mr Dehal, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the witness?

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I do.  I see some notes are being handed to me by Mr McBride.  Would the Committee please bear with me, for me to go through them?
	Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR DEHAL: Mr Pule, you've known Robert as Duggie, is that correct?  That was his code name?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: And your code name was Oupa, is that correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: Were you present in these proceedings when Mr Ismail testified?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I was present.

MR DEHAL: You've heard his testimony, you must have heard that he supported Mr McBride's application and took political responsibility for the acts referred to in Mr McBride's application for amnesty, do you remember that?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Now to the extent that you participated in any of these activities, relative to Mr McBride, either directly or indirectly, do you support Mr McBride's application for amnesty in that regard?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do support his application.

MR DEHAL: For that matter, I see that in your application which is contained in A1, the bundle A1, beginning at page 88, you refer to Mr Ismail's application for amnesty and reiterate same in so far as it relates to you in support thereof, correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: In educating Mr McBride, you said you sought to bring him within the guidelines of the ANC and at some stage you mentioned that Gordon Webster had understood these guidelines and also that when you spoke to these comrades, they had by then known of the guidelines, so it was easy for them to understand.  Do you recall?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: Now in so far as Mr McBride himself is concerned, when you came to educate him, you said you met in 1985 and 1986, would you say that he was already politicised, if you'll pardon that term?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: What I knew at that time was that the political education that he had received, he had received that education from comrade Gordon Webster.

MR DEHAL: And you gathered that when you discussed discipline, guidelines of the ANC etc. with him, him meaning McBride?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not understand the question, may you repeat the question please?

MR DEHAL: Yes, when you met McBride and discussed or educated him in guidelines of the ANC, I'm sure it was evident to you that McBride was by then already aware of these, having been educated by his then Commander in the unit, in South Africa, namely Gordon Webster?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I was certain at that time, because I knew that he was recruited by comrade Gordon Webster and I knew that he would not recruit him and educate him about the use of weapons beside educate, giving him political education.

MR DEHAL: You've heard Mr Ismail in his testimony refer to his satisfaction of Mr McBride and indeed of Mr Gordon Webster, in the way McBride in particular carried out his operations.  Remember that?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Do you also recall Mr Ismail referring to Mr McBride as a hero, as one who is held in high esteem by the ANC and the MK?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do remember.

MR DEHAL: Would you confirm that?  Would you agree with that view?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I would agree with that view because that is how I viewed comrade McBride at that time.

MR DEHAL: In so far as the operations that McBride carried out and the ammunition that you had given him to carry out such operations, would you say that you are happy with the way Mr McBride carried out these operations?

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't you ask him if he knows how he carried them out and what operations?

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Pule, you've supplied Mr McBride with lots of ammunition from time to time.  You mentioned that you did not know precisely for what purpose you would have used this ammunition.  Did you get any report back from Mr McBride on operations that he carried out?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I would explain this in as far as reports are concerned, that I've already said that my task was to train the people.  What they were going to do at different times, that was the task of comrade Ismail, because he was our overall Commander at that time.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Now you mentioned in paragraph 16 of the document B4 that you do not have a specific recollection of the period around June 1986 and cannot positively say whether you provided comrade Robert with materials which were used in the Why Not explosion and it is quite possible that you did so.  You remember that?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do remember.

MR DEHAL: Now you've heard much evidence here and presumably you are familiar from your knowledge obtained otherwise, of how the Why Not operation was carried out by comrade Robert and the others?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: Would it be correct to say that that whole operation, loosely termed the Why Not operation, where the car bomb exploded, accords with your understanding of the ANC guidelines and falls within the parameters thereof?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, that's correct.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  In paragraph 14, you mention that McBride had called with a lady who was introduced to you.  You saw her in his company, you could not recall her name, but that you subsequently learned that she is Greta Apelgren, do you see that?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Now I understand your evidence as being that whenever you supplied ammunition, limpet mines, grenades, AK47s, pistols etc., you would have handed these to either Gordon Webster or McBride, correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: May you please repeat that question?