Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DE KOCK: No, Mr Chair, if it were a serious situation where they said we have to launch an attack or we have information, could you launch an attack, then they would have called us, but the delegation was complete in that sense that your security branches and divisions were manically protective of their sources, their infiltration structures, their existing intelligence structures and if we had gone out on our own and done something, we could have disturbed the balance and that was something we did not want to do.   A vague memory that I have, the Askaris did sometimes do things wrong in certain places and we had all sorts of problems to calm people afterwards.  The organisation of that section was total and the people who gave them their orders were supposed to command them.

MR PRIOR: An incident which directly emanated from Soweto Security Branch, can you recall any other, whether there were any such other incidents or occurrences where you were called upon by the Soweto Security Branch to eliminate problem people?

MR DE KOCK: Mr Chair, not that I can remember now.  If you could refresh my memory, I might say yes or no, but later in 1990 or '91 there was a situation, a situation did arise where I was not known in a certain matter and afterwards two Askaris had come back to me and asked me for their money of which I knew nothing.  It seemed that an operation had been launched without my knowledge that, and that led apparently to the death of three activists but I did not actually apply for that except for obstructing the law, I did ask amnesty for Brigadier, er, no, we, I went to Brigadier Schoon and we paid them each R5 000.  I think they are still available if they are still alive, not that I think they would have been killed, but we don't know with the taxi violence and so forth.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, I want to leave that because your affidavit deals with the relationship between Stratcom, the other intelligence agencies and so forth?   I want to turn to Temba Mobotha and his killing.  During the interrogation of Mobotha at Marble Hall, was he questioned while you were present in any way relating to the Mandela Football Club or Mrs Winnie Mandela's activities in Soweto?

MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, in no way that I can remember.  I don't recall that either, it specifically went about weapons and more weapons, what has done and what you have done wrong.  The Stompie Sepei case only came up with me later and that is also where I mentioned it, also because of a short discussion during my detention, but Stompie Sepei wasn't a factor in the past and I wasn't, I didn't know who he was.  I can perhaps just give you an idea, your branches worked very intensely when it came to individuals on national level and also across borders and the volume of that information is rather big, and it was therefore simply impossible to know.  Your branches usually would come up with a request and tell one that there was a problem.  There was the western border and then also down towards the Swazi direction but that is the way we gained information.

MR PRIOR: Yes I just want to, during the gruesome interrogation that extended the interrogation of Mr Mabotha, there was an indication that Mr du Toit was present and it was put via your attorney, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: There were more members of Soweto there, I didn't know them however.  I visited Soweto at the most three times, one didn't go there eagerly, at least not me.  That was the first time where I saw Klopper and then I also knew Major Grobler and a man who is dead now, I don't want to mention his name now, but those are the only people I knew, but there were more people because we worked in shifts because that man was never left alone.  At three opportunities he was in a delirium, there was no rest for him.   I therefore cannot tell whether du Toit was there because I can't identify them.   Let me put it this way, and I am not going to involve him if I am not certain.

MR PRIOR: Mr Kloppers was at that time a member of the Security Branch at Soweto?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was he later, he was then transferred to Vlakplaas?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: You indicated that part of the interrogation concerned Stompie Sepei, is that correct?

DE KOCK: That, was that while we were there at Marble Hall?  I can't remember that because my interest was the weapons, that is exactly what I was adamant about.

MR PRIOR: And the information about the weapons, where did you get that information from, in other words why were you questioning him about the weapons?

DE KOCK: That is information that Mr Grobler reported to me, namely that that man knew where the weapons were, that he was involved in more crime so that we wanted to find out what that was all about.

MR PRIOR: Now you heard the evidence of Mr Potgieter today before the Commission concerning his concern for Mr Mabotha, that he was using him as a witness, he wanted to protect him as such, and was concerned for his welfare and he turned to you as a last resort to solve his dilemma because he wanted to retain Mr Mabotha, keep in touch with Mr Mabotha and contact with him should the Attorney-General require him as a witness.  You heard that?

MR DE KOCK: I have listened to that, yes, Mr Chairman. I am not going to agree with that, Mabotha was not the first section 29 detainee and who was so fast from me as well as explosives and then exploders as well.   That enabled them to perform possible overt operations, that was basically for what it was.  That's how I see it, there might have been other reasons.

MR PRIOR: Call by Vlakplaas Four.  Support whether it be logistical weapons that they required or ammunition or explosives or other assistance in launching operations.  Do you agree with that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Chair, it was not a strange concept, there was nothing sinister about it,  We were all in the same boat, we helped each other.  We just had more access to such equipment, it wasn't only Soweto, I am thinking of Eastern Cape, Natal, Cape Town, Eastern Transvaal.  It wasn't an isolated thing, just with Soweto.

MR PRIOR: Regarding Temba Mabotha, had you had any other contact with Mr Potgieter from the Security Branch, Soweto?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, I saw him upon occasion if I try to remember but we worked together for a while at Koevert also in a sensitive line, not everybody moved on that level.  It was an elected group on that level.

MR PRIOR: Once you placed your team of Askari or gave assistance in terms of manpower to the Security Branch at Soweto, would you know the specifics of the operation or would you leave that up to the local commander to give those instructions to your Askaris or your men?

MR DE KOCK: No, Mr Chair, if it were a serious situation where they said we have to launch an attack or we have information, could you launch an attack, then they would have called us, but the delegation was complete in that sense that your security branches and divisions were manically protective of their sources, their infiltration structures, their existing intelligence structures and if we had gone out on our own and done something, we could have disturbed the balance and that was something we did not want to do.   A vague memory that I have, the Askaris did sometimes do things wrong in certain places and we had all sorts of problems to calm people afterwards.  The organisation of that section was total and the people who gave them their orders were supposed to command them.

MR PRIOR: An incident which directly emanated from Soweto Security Branch, can you recall any other, whether there were any such other incidents or occurrences where you were called upon by Soweto Security Branch to eliminate problem people?