Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

UNKNOWN: When Lungelwa died after Xolile but, I actually wanted to talk about Xolile.  When Xolile died, there was this big hatred between us and the Mtshiselwa's because our father was seen as the one who had caused the death of Xolile, then other people joined against us.
 We were then those neighbours who were not in good terms from the death of Xolile.  And she said, this continued Lungelwa was accused that he had been seen on a hippo and two comrades came.  One of them was Bobedlo Boy and he investigated about this accusation that Lungelwa had been seen on a hippo and found that it was not there.
 He came to warn us against this people that were forming stories against us.  So Bobedlo was one of those who came to our home.

REV XUNDU: I would like to ask a question.  There is also something referred to as the "third force", where you find where there is a conflict they will join too.  Now what QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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do you think?  Do you think there was a "third force"?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there was.  The "third force" were the people in our street, they were the enemy and then it happened that we sent Lungelwa away to Johannesburg as suggested by this Bobedlo Boy, until everything subsided.
 That was the time when there as a consumer boycott and Lungelwa used to not go into shops to buy.  If we had gone to buy, he would ask us to take it back.  Lungelwa had shoes that he had got from my sister and then people thought that he had bought these shoes and labelled her as an informer.
 So she went to Johannesburg, then she insisted to come back on her birthday and she came on the 8th.  On the 9th these children came.  They did not ask anything, they took her and burnt her.
 I went to (indistinct), I said you've got what you wanted, I am sure you're happy and then I went home.
 When I was there with my children and my husband, these children came and they had burnt Lungelwa already, I was with my sister Nomonde.  They bound our hands together with the intention to burn us.
 Nomonde escaped and somewhere at Mbengwa's place the very, this were the very children who had tied me, they asked why I had gone to Stella, then I told them that even if I were to die, I will tell them it was the truth that we were not informers, because we were brought up the way we were brought up at home.
 They tied me, they put a tyre around my neck.  When they were about to pour petrol on me, children from the neighbours said, no, you can's burn Nozibele, they had torn my clothes, they had smashed my goods in the house, my husband was following, crying, I did not know where my 
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children were, I saw them the following day, so they let me go and I survived and Lungelwa died.

REV XUNDU: Now you mean all this happened because Xolile had died?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's the origin.

REV XUNDU: Were these councillors having some guards where they would think that your father perhaps had a firearm?

UNKNOWN: No, there were no guards at home.  The only time they sent guards was when they had burnt.  Then there had been an anonymous phone to us saying that we should go out of the house by two o'clock, so the children phoned for the police.
 The police came to be on guard.  And then they stopped guarding when we had to move and relocate to the rural places.

REV XUNDU: Were there any people who were arrested?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there were, because we named them.  Even Lungelwa had named them.

REV XUNDU: Did this people appear in court?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they did.

REV XUNDU: Were they charged?

UNKNOWN: ; Yes, they appeared in court in Port Alfred.  My father and mother were there and my cousin too.  I could not go because I was not feeling good.  I was so disturbed and hurt, I did not want to listen to anything connected to this.

REV XUNDU: What did they say was the outcome or the verdict?

UNKNOWN: No, my father did not get into the court room.  They were just told about the verdict outside the
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court.

REV XUNDU: What did they say was the verdict of the court?

UNKNOWN: They were given a sentence of some years.  Now my father will take over and tell us exactly.

UNKNOWN: In Port Alfred we first went to a court in Grahamstown and we did not see them.  We were not asked to go in as witnesses.
 Then we moved on to Port Alfred where we were told that we had to go back and they were going to tell us later, but since then we have never heard anything whether they were sentenced or what.
 But we hear rumours that there were some who were sentenced.  I think one of them is Notsolwana who was the main person who took Lungelwa from us.

REV XUNDU: Is she still here in Queenstown?

UNKNOWN: I beg yours?

REV XUNDU: Is she still here according to what you know?

UNKNOWN: I think she is in jail, I'm not sure.  We left this place after they had burnt Lungelwa.  There isn't anything more we know about this place, because we move to Tsitsikama.

REV XUNDU: There in Tsitsikama, were you tortured in 1990.  Could you explain to this Commission what happened?

UNKNOWN: There in Tsitsikama sir, on the times - on the day of Sebe's death, on the day when Sebe died, at about five o'clock in the afternoon, though it is the time when the Government of Sebe was overthrown, that's what he means, we saw some people from the north and we felt we did not have any enemies.
 In fact even here in Queenstown we did not have 
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enemies.  They came, these people came and stood on top of tables.  Some were taking off the pictures from the walls, throwing them to the floor, some were taking food out of the fridges, this was a great loss to us.
 I can still remember the death of Lungelwa, but this was worse.  The loss was great.  Some people took our blankets, they took meat from our fridges despite that the meat was cold from the fridge.

REV XUNDU: Excuse me Tata.  I know the way the gentleman is giving his evidence is humorous and so the way he speaks, makes people laugh, not laughing actually at the story so I'm asking for your patience that we should control ourselves too and listen to the evidence.  Now could you tell us briefly that evening they took you to 24 villages.

UNKNOWN: They took me and they came in a bus.  One of them said, he was the driver, he introduced himself as the son of Mtshiselwa and he said I was the one who was responsible for the arrest of his brothers.
 Then I said, yes I did, because they had killed my daughter.  When they came to me they said they wanted me to take them to the Headmen because at that time I was a member of Parliament here in Wittlesea.
 They wanted me to take them to the Headmen because they wanted to go with me to the Magistrate to go and ask for a piece of land.  I said I wasn't the one who was allocating land to the people.
 Then I said to them they had to go to the Chief in stead.  Then they said, no, we are going to go with you and I could not resist, because I feared they would do the same thing they did to my daughter.
 So I was prepared to do everything they were saying I 
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should do.  They asked me why I had run away from Queenstown and asked many questions.  I said, no I did not run away, I came here to bury my child.

REV XUNDU: Now you say you were a member of the Parliament of the Ciskei Government that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it had collapsed.  Yes, I was a member of the Parliament in the Ciskei but it had collapsed, so they came because they wanted land.

REV XUNDU: Did you get there to the Headmen?