Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MADIKIZELA: I think he didn't get the question, I'm saying the gentlemen, Gen Kupe, Col Fetman, Brig Dengana, who were on the scene, deny having instructed, giving instructions.  They admit being there but they say they were in a different capacity, they were not commanding the various units, the F unit, the security branch ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Yes, yes, yes.

MR MADIKIZELA: ... officers and other people who were there, some from Pretoria.  They were there as a group as senior officers but they did not give instructions as to what should happen there.

MR LAX: You've heard the question, do you understand he is saying to you they didn't give you instructions or anyone else instructions?  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: To comment on that when it was not possible for the - to set alight the grocery shop, I was instructed to go and extract petrol from the car and pour it there but I told them that I was actually allergic to petrol smell.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what's being put to you is, is it Gen Kupe, Col Fetman ...(intervention)

MR MADIKIZELA: And Brig Dengana.

CHAIRPERSON: And Brig Dengana say that they did not give - they themselves did not give instructions to anybody at the scene, they were merely there mainly observing but they didn't give instructions.  Now we know that there was - somebody must have given instructions to shoot but they say it wasn't them.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes they did issue instructions.

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are that the security branch members that were on the scene were under the command of Mfaswe.  The TDF members who were on the scene were under the instruction of Lt Madikizela?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Madikizela was not a lieutenant, there's nothing like that, I do not remember seeing Col Mfaswe in Willowvale.  Maybe they were just using him because he is now passed on.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that Gen Umbalawe is the head of the anti-riot unit and his deputy were present on the scene and according to protocol they were the people who were overall in charge of the gentlemen that you have mentioned in your affidavit?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is not true because even Gen Umbalawe passed away.  I think they are just using their names to run away from the truth, but what I'm saying I am certain about.

MR MADIKIZELA: Is it not correct that Umbalawe was more senior than this Gen Kupe, Col Fetman and Brig Dengana?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: According to ranks or according to the anti-riot unit?  Please specify?

MR MADIKIZELA: My instructions are that this Gen Umbalawe and his deputy according to ranks and protocol in the police, when they were present, the presence of these gentlemen, the three gentlemen, that is they were subject to his command and instructions.  What do you say to that?  In other words they could not have given instructions whilst General was there?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The anti-riot unit and the soldiers most of the time they would be used as reinforcement and the officer in charge would be present.  I think they are making a mistake.  I also worked with the anti-riot unit.  When we were called by the security we'd just go there as a back up.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed that Gen Galela during the incident at Willowvale was not stationed with the security branch.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, during the Willowvale incident he was not present, he was with the intelligence unit.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that Gen Kawe did not visit the scene, was not at Willowvale - sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry - yes, I'm instructed that Gen Kawe was not on the scene, he never visited this homestead at Willowvale, he remained here at the head office?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Even if he's not present there he's the one who issued the instructions to go to Willowvale, he is the one who opened the armoury of the head office and we took the firearms.  He gave instructions to Col Ndwase to open the strongroom in Bothastal and pick and choose our firearms and we were given a brand new car, a Stanza and I remember this because it was for the first time for me to drive this car because it's got different gears therefore I had a problem with this car, I had to give it to somebody else and I continued driving in a Skyline.  He was fully aware of this operation in Willowvale because he was commanding it whereas he was in his office.

MR MADIKIZELA: He further denies that he had knowledge of your activities of torturing, assaulting and ill-treating suspects?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It is true that I did not see him at the branch but he would receive the complaint after a detainee has been released and they complained and a civil claim would be lodged and he was in control of that and he would settle a civil claim without taking further steps on the side of the member.  There were no departmental steps but if a person had assaulted the detainee, that person is supposed to be arrested but he would approve everything.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that W/o Matafeni was not stationed at Norwood during the incident at Willowvale. What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes he was not present, he was in Norwood but he is the one who actually taught me the security duties and assaulting people.

MR MADIKIZELA: He further instructs me that during the period that he was stationed at Norwood he never gave you instructions to assault, torture and to ill-treat people?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He did give me instructions to that effect.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed by Gen Lavisa, whom you claim in affidavit that he indoctrinated you, he would dispute that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, he is the one actually.  To add on that there was a course on VIP protection.  We were with him even then.  He is the one who said he was going to be a course leader.  He nominated himself and even thereby I was not happy because of him, because he painted me as a terrorist.

MR MADIKIZELA: The General instructions me that he merely gave you lectures on the security legislation that was applicable then in the Transkei and more specifically in this Section 47 and that this security branch of the Police was mainly tasked with seeing to it that nobody could have been at this security legislation?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, that is not true.  To add on that he would tell us about his underground operations that were taking place in Port Elizabeth.  It means that he was very much interested in that because he was even teaching us about underground but I do not know anything about the underground.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed that Col Jekem, Gen Gladile, Gen Damoyi, Gen Lavisa never visited the scene at the Willowvale.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That could be possible that they were not there but they knew about the security operations.  Yes, they were not present in Willowvale.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that the same Generals never gave instructions and orders that you should shoot at people, you should destroy property at that homestead?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I do not know that because they were left in Bothastal but I am sure that Gen Kawe wouldn't take any lateral decision about that.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that by the Generals, Gen Kawe, Gen Lavisa, Gen Damoyi, Gen Gladile, Gen Galela, Brig Dengana, Col Fetman, Col Jekem, Warrant Mzinyati, Gen Kupe that they never authorised you nor did they have any knowledge that during the course and scope of your duties as the member of the security branch stationed at Norwood you had amongst other people that you arrested and including those you mentioned in your affidavit, you had tortured them in the manner that you have described?