Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Gentlemen, that concludes the evidence and the argument.  We would want to consider the matter and formulate a decision as soon as circumstances permit.  This particular session is scheduled for the entire week.  So, in terms of that arrangement, we've got some time tomorrow and if the circumstances do permit, we would like to at least endeavour to formulate a decision hopefully in the course of this particular session.  So, we're hopeful of doing that.  For that purpose I will for the moment let this matter stand down until tomorrow at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we can deal with the matter, hopefully for the purpose of giving our   decision.  So this one will stand down.  There is a further matter which the panel would like to deal with, and that is the matter of Mr Sibiya.  We would like to recall that matter and to use the opportunity given Mr Khumalo's presence and his position to call him as a witness to deal with just one issue in that particular application which we feel could assist us in finalising that decision.  So for those purposes I recall the Sibiya matter and I want to call Mr Khumalo to come to the witness stand please.

MR LAX: Must I swear him in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, please do that.

MR LAX: Mr Khumalo, please stand.

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you.  You may be seated.  Sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax.  Mr Khumalo, thank you for making yourself available to the panel.  We have taken the liberty of calling you up to the witness stand to assist us, if you are in a position to do so, on a matter which we have heard in the course of the week.  It's the amnesty application of Mr Sibiya.
	There is one particular issue in that application which we would like to hear if you could comment on, which would be of assistance to the panel in finalising that particular matter.  Now, during the course of that hearing which relates to the Bethal area, there was testimony about a conflict which involved members of the African National Congress and the Pan Africanist Congress in that particular area.  Roughly in the period 1991 to '92, in that particular time period.  So, it really relates to the period say roughly between 1990 and 1992.  Now, given your position within the PAC, are you at all in a position to assist the panel in either confirming the existence of that conflict which is referred to or if you can comment on that in any way?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Yes, I am, sir.  Chairman, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please do so, Mr Khumalo?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Ja.  Members of the Committee, this political struggle between the two organisation in that area started in 1990, not 1991.  I remember at that time that not only in the Emzinoni in Bethal, but we had a problem of similarly political fighting space in Vosloorus, at Kwaguqua in Witbank, in Ermelo at Umlomo.  As that time I was not a national leader of the PAC, but I was a leader in the region of the PAC in the East Rand.  We were getting these reports that members of the PAC have been under attack and we needed to assist if there is any way that we can, especially at Bethal.  I thought maybe the person in question here, when he talk about attending the meetings and the workshop he will go to an extent that there were people in those meetings that he will not know, they were not known to him.  	Because we were sending people all over these areas in order to assist wherever possible in the way of trying to bring the political settlement and negotiate with the opposition if it's possible.  Where it was not possible, those people would come and say that that area it's more, there is no tolerance, there is no option that we can engage ourselves politically.  In fact it's at high risk for any member of the PAC, like the area in KwaTema, there was a time when members of PAC could not wear even T-shirts.
	So in areas like that, we were to recommend to those who were linked to the underground structure of the PAC to intervene.  So at that area at Emzinoni I know it was affected by the political confrontation between the PAC and the ANC, and we did indeed receive a report that houses were burnt.  Even the members, those who were killed during the time, burnt during the time of the shack being burnt as means of retaliation by the ANC or attack by the ANC, we did get the report that there is such incident in that area.  
	So what I can say is that not only at Bethal at the time, but throughout many areas that I counted, but especially in Bethal there was that political conflict between the PAC and the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, thank you.  Any questions, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Khumalo, how long did this tension, this conflict go on for?  You said it started it about 1990.  One would have expected that's when the political parties were unbanned, the political movements, the liberation movements were unbanned and that's when the above board vying for political space would have started.

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: To some areas it didn't take too long.  Some areas it's still existing today.  In the area of Kwaguqua in Witbank the tension was closed during the time of 1992/93.  At Bethal as well, I would say during that time of 1992/1993 early, this question of conflict were coming to ease, were coming to ease but to some other areas it still exist even today.  I'm sure you are reading of what is happening in KwaTema and I'm fully involved in KwaTema, to try to make sure that there is a political settlement.
	I was also involved in the Peace Accord between PASO and COSAS.  It starts sometimes at school, not at PAC level and then it rises up to PAC.  We are involved in trying to sort out these things, and with the new dispensation it does help now because there is an understanding with that.  We had to move towards peace and reconciliation.  It's only that the fear that it might arise now because of political campaign of election again, but between 1992 and 1993 there was a realisation of this confrontation.

MR LAX: Thank you very much, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, we have called Mr Khumalo as a witness.  So you're, of course, entitled to an opportunity to pose any questions you wish.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  No, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?  Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khumalo, do you still remember who were the ANC leaders in Bethal at that time?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: I can't really know the names of the leaders of other areas except maybe the members of the PAC.  I know at that time the chairman of the PAC was Ben Mazibuko.  And the secretary there, if I'm not mistaken, was Jafta Sibisi.

ADV SIGODI: Do you if this chairman - you say he was the chairman of the PAC, Ben Mazibuko?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know if there were any negotiations between the PAC and the ANC, particularly in the Bethal area to try and resolve the conflict?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Yes, there was an approach of political settlement in that area.  I think that is the one that resulted in the relaxation of confrontation, because after the death of an ANC member there was this that the ANC also was seeking for political settlement on this issue, because it was viewed that APLA is now advancing in that area.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know who this ANC member was?

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: I don't know the name of this person.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No questions, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, thank you very much for assisting.

JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO AKA ACE: Appreciation, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED