Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: You see, because, why I'm asking is on page 5 of Exhibit R, you state on a question
"Did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise from the acts committed with a political objective?"
You say:
"Yes, we were provided with groceries by the AWB, Terre'blanche, for support in the hostel."
Now how is this possible?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not say that.  I don't know about that.  I cannot agree to somebody being pointed out to me as being Terre'blanche.  I am saying something, I'm talking about things that I know.

MR LOWIES: There's a next question, paragraph (d) of paragraph 10
"If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits."
And you proceeded to state:
"Groceries.  These were provided by the AWB, Eugene Terre'blanche, for support in the hostel."
You say this is utter nonsense?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that.  Yes, whites did come to give the hostel groceries, but I don't know how, I cannot comment much.

MR LOWIES: Well let me put it this way, Eugene Terre'blanche in Zulu and Eugene Terre'blanche in Sotho is one and the same person, you don't have a different name for him, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, I'm not an educated person.

MR LOWIES: AWB in Zulu and AWB organisation in Sotho is the same organisation, it's the same name, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know.  I did say before that I am not educated.

MR LOWIES: So how on earth could this happen then, that somebody wrote ridiculous comments such as this on your application?  Have you got any reasonable explanation, Sir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that maybe that person misunderstood me.  I was questioned on what we gained from it and I did not say that the groceries were brought specifically for me, but there were people who used to come to the hostel and bring groceries.  That person must have misunderstood me.

MR LOWIES: But that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever mention to anyone that the hostel residents would get support by way of food from other individuals?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I might have, but I did not mention Terre'blanche's name because white people used to come to the hostel to bring food, but I cannot say it was Mr Terre'blanche.

MR LOWIES: But in this regard, Sir, it could be charity workers, it could be the red cross, it could be anybody, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I cannot dispute that.  That is possible, but I don't know.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Lowies.
	Just on this aspect, when these people who brought groceries came to the hostel, did you see them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw them, but I cannot say who they are.  Yes, I saw them bringing food to the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: Did they - where would they put the food?  Where would they put these food parcels?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They used to put it in a room, I cannot remember very well.  That's where the Indunas would meet and divide the food accordingly.  They would divide the food and distribute it into room in the hostels.

ADV SIGODI: Did they come in private motor vehicles or what, or did they come in motor vehicles or how did they come to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I used to see private vehicles.

ADV SIGODI: Were they wearing uniform or were they wearing private clothes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Private clothes.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR LOWIES: Sir, I want to put it to you that such groceries or other items that were supplied were supplied as a result of charity work, not as a result of any political objective.  Can you dispute this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know.  I cannot explain, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: Well we can also deduct from that answer then that it is not your contention that groceries that were supplied were supplied as a result of the political objectives of the suppliers, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.

MR LOWIES: Again in paragraph 11, when you had to supply particulars regarding the orders that were given to commit the offences, or the people whose approval had to be met in the organisation, you only mentioned Prince Vanana Zulu or Mtwana Zulu, as it is referred to here, and no mention is made of Darkie Chonco or Gatchene.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, Sir.  I did say that Darkie Chonco is the one who brought the firearms along.  There are instances where I was asked as to who commanded me to go and shoot at Sebokeng, I did say that it was Vanana Zulu.  Darkie was not present at Sebokeng, he did not instruct me to go and kill people there.

MR LOWIES: I also do not see the name of Themba Khosa here in this paragraph.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know what happened, but I did mention that Themba Khosa came and held a meeting at KwaMadala Hostel.  Themba Khosa participated in the Madala affairs.

MR LOWIES: And in your mind, was he part of the instruction to attack Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, the date was initially not mentioned, but it was mentioned that Boipatong should be attacked and he was also pleased about that.  They did not specify the date at that time, but Boipatong was mentioned as the place that we should attack.

MR LOWIES: But that's not the question.  You must listen to the questions please.  In your mind, was Themba Khosa part of the instruction to, did he have, did he participate in the decision to attack Boipatong? - in your mind.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, he was present when Boipatong was discussed.  We as the supporters did not go out to attack Boipatong on our own volition, it was the leaders who had decided.

MR LOWIES: Gatchene, did he give an instruction in your mind to attack Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was present, but I'm not in a position to say whether he did issue an order, because a meeting of Indunas was held and they discussed this issue.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether Prince Vanana Zulu or Mtwana Zulu's house was burnt down by the ANC comrades ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Where was this house, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: I'm not sure.
	Do you know of any house of the Prince that was burnt?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard him saying that his house had been burnt down in Serela.  That is in Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: And did he say who burnt it down?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he just said it have been burnt down, but he never explained who burnt it down.

MR LOWIES: He didn't say it was the ANC comrades?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, he said his house was burnt down.  Do you want me to admit that it was burnt down by the ANC?  He did not tell me that.

MR LOWIES: Are you trying to protect anybody in the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I'm not protecting anyone from the ANC, I'm not an ANC member, I belong to the IFP.  If he's told me that his house was burnt down, do I have to mention that it was the ANC?

MR LOWIES: The reason why I'm asking this is, you stated, and I quote from page 5 of Exhibit R
"He was previously residing at Boipatong, but his house was since burnt down by the ANC comrades."
So this is in your statement.  What is your answer now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I must have been misunderstood.  I was asked if Prince Zulu's house had been burnt down and I said yes, it was and I was questioned on who had burnt it down and I said I do not know.  I do not know why that person wrote down that it was the ANC.  There must have been a misunderstanding.

MR LOWIES: You see it's the second point.  I just want to make this to you, previously I canvassed this with you, I canvassed with you whether you had knowledge of the ANC viewing the SAP as the enemy, and you denied it, yet it is in your statement.
	Second point, again there is a bad reflection in your statement to ANC comrades and to deny that you said it.  It appears to me that you are trying to protect somebody here, not so?