Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: ... and I will ask Mrs Mary Burton to administer the oath.

MARY BURTON: Good afternoon Mr Ndima, can you hear me properly through the earphones?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I can hear.

SAM NDIMA: (sworn states)

MARY BURTON: Thank you, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntsebeza, could I just ask you to ask people in the audience to share their earphones, those people who understand Xhoza?

MR NTSEBEZA: The plea of the Chairperson is to ask the people who have earphones because Mr Ndima is going to speak in Xhoza and those who would like a translation, could you please try to share so that they can also hear and to hear and understand what he is going to say.
 These are the interpreting units so that we can hear in any language that we feel comfortable with.  We would like to have silence and order please.  And can we ask the photographers to take their photo's, as soon as he has been sworn in.
 Mr Ndima, I think before we start we would like you to take the oath.  Oh, sorry he has just taken the oath.  Mr Ndima, I would like to ask you a question first.  In years how old are you today?

MR NDIMA: I am 99 years old.

MR NTSEBEZA: Which event were you born?

MR NDIMA: I am sure, I don't know, I can only identify in photo's.  That is what I don't know because I am uneducated.  I don't know when, which event I was born.
 My passport when it came from Pretoria says I am 70 years old in so much that now, it is 90 years.

MR NTSEBEZA: During the (indistinct) fever, where have you been?

MR NDIMA: I was already here.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you a man or were you still a boy?

MR NDIMA: I was a man.

MR NTSEBEZA: During the Anglo Boer War, where had you been?

MR NDIMA: During the Anglo Boer War I was here.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you still a boy?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I was a boy.

MR NTSEBEZA: During the pass law, how old were you during the rinderpest?

MR NDIMA: I hope you won't mind, some of these events I won't remember, because I am semi-illiterate.  Rinderpest is an event, I don't know this education related.

MR NTSEBEZA: I will  just try to estimate your age, but if you say during the Anglo Boer War you were still a young boy.

MR NDIMA: As I am saying I was surprised when I discovered from Pretoria how old I was.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you still remember of 1986?  It is 10 years ago.

MR NDIMA: You are confusing me now.

MR NTSEBEZA: You see today it is Wednesday, it is Tuesday, can you remember things that happened 10 years ago from today?  Things that were happening here in Guguletu, Crossroads?

MR NDIMA: As far as Crossroads is concerned, I know it A to Z because even when it was established, I was part of its establishment.  There were only five houses when I arrived here.

MR NTSEBEZA: I just wanted to make sure that you are going to talk about something that you know.  I see that you have a pin there, a Presidential pin with a picture of the President.

MR NDIMA: You mean this one?

MR NTSEBEZA: What does that mean, does it mean you are in his party, a member of his party?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: You voted for him, you vote for him and his party?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Okay.  Just tell us as far as you can remember ...

MR NDIMA: There were four, no there were five, mine was the sixth and Mndayi's one was the seventh one.

MR NTSEBEZA: Where were you coming from?

MR NDIMA: I was from Guguletu.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why did you move to that place?

MR NDIMA: I moved there because my wife came and because I did have a pass and she didn't have one and she was not included and this time I came back from work, I would find her arrested.  Then I decided I must go and go to an informal settlement for her sake.

MR NTSEBEZA: And coming to Ngxobongwana, when did you meet him?

MR NDIMA: He found me there at Crossroads.

MR NTSEBEZA: How many houses ...

MR NDIMA: No, there were very few at the time, but more than when I came in.

MR NTSEBEZA: He was your secretary?

MR NDIMA: Yes, he was my secretary.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you were sort of a headman or what, what were you?

MR NDIMA: The headman was Mndayi, the person who was in charge there and then I took Ngxobongwana because Mndayi was working now Ngxobongwana was not working ... (tape ends) ...

MR NTSEBEZA: What was it that he was secretary for, what was he writing, what was happening actually?

MR NDIMA: In our meetings, when we had our meetings talking about issues that affected the community, those are the things that were being written down.

MR NTSEBEZA: What were these things that affected the community?

MR NDIMA: Like the arrest of people.

MR NTSEBEZA: By whom?  Is it Barns?

MR NDIMA: No, for not having passes because most of the people that didn't have passes and Mndayi and I did have and Ngxobongwana himself, the three of us did have passes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And these people, where did they come from, from the rural areas or from Langa?

MR NDIMA: They came from different places from here and from there because they didn't have passes and they were being chased because of that, they ran away to Crossroads.
 And then when they got there, each person would be allocated a site, we would give that person a site.

MR NTSEBEZA: When you say we, when you say we, who were the people who were allocating sites, it was you and who?

MR NDIMA: Myself and Mndayi and Ngxobongwana.

MR NTSEBEZA: And this friendship, this cooperation continued, but I noticed that somehow, something went wrong in the friendship and cooperation between you and Ngxobongwana?

MR NDIMA: It started between myself and Mndayi after our houses were demolished by a White person whom had asked because after a while it became clear that we didn't want the Bantu Board, we wanted the Divisional Council, we wanted to be under the Divisional Council, not under the Bantu Board and we even went as far as Wynberg to make this request that the Bantu Board must be gotten rid of.
 And then they asked us who did we want to be under.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who was asking?

MR NDIMA: The Magistrate.  Don't we want to be ruled, and we said no we don't mind being under the rule of someone, but we want to be under the rule of the Divisional Council.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who was this White person?

MR NDIMA: In the Divisional Council, this White man was called Barns.

MR NTSEBEZA: Barns was a policeman?