Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(not interpreted)

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The tree was next to Sinangwenye's house.

MR MALAN: Who is this Ngwenye?  Is he related to Basil?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He is also here right now.

MR MALAN: I want to know whether he is the father of Basil.  Is he a family of Basil's?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.  Basil was just alone, he had no member of the family there, only the youth.

ADV DE JAGER: Who is Lucky?  Is Lucky also known as Sinangwenye?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that was another name that we were using for him, he was Sinangwenye.

MR MALAN: So then maybe I've misunderstood you.  Are you saying he was sitting under a tree at Lucky's house?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he was sitting under a tree, next to his house.

MR MALAN: Next to Lucky's house?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Sorry.  Thank you Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, we stopped at where you mentioned that "Lucky picked up a firearm and we drove him to my place."  Now were you living somewhere else at the time?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is one area with different rooms.

ADV DE JAGER: What do you mean "we drove him"?  By car or how did you drive him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were walking.

ADV DE JAGER: So you forced him to accompany you to your place?  To your room?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, we were forcing him because we were in trouble at the time.  We had to investigate him and to know his reason to be there.  We wanted to know all about that.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when you say, "we forced him to come with us", what sort of force did you all use to take the victim with you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I had pointed a firearm at him and the other people who were with me were also armed and we were taking him towards my house.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when you and other people got to your house, what happened thereafter to the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: When we arrived there we sat down.  We started asking questions one by one.  We wanted to know where he was going to and we wanted to know where he was also coming from.  He told us everything.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini what sort of questions did you ask him one by one?  What questions did you ask him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were questioning him about the attacks in our area and we wanted to know to which organisation did he belong to, because he knew very well that as the ANC was on the other side of the road, he was not allowed to come to the other area because killings were taking place.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini you mentioned that you asked him which organisation he belonged to.  Did he tell you which organisation he belonged to?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he told us that he was an IFP member who was coming from the other side of the road.

MR PANDAY: Did he tell you people what did he come into your area for?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, he did not tell us the whole truth, he kept on evading some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you able to deduce that he had not disclosed the truth?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The way he was - the manner in which he was talking, when you ask him about the leader, he was not prepared to reveal the truth.  He would mention someone else who was not known to us.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini you mentioned that he evaded some of your questions, what questions did he evade?  Can you think of any of those questions?

CHAIRPERSON: He has just responded to that, hasn't he Mr Panday?  He evaded questions pertinently relating to the names of people in the leadership structures of the ANC from whence he came.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: IFP.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini after questioning the victim, what happened to him thereafter?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is when we decided to take him with to a place with some lawn and we took a decision that he should be punished.  We let him go - decided to let him go and we told him not to come back there because that was not his place.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini let's start all over again.  You said "We took him to a place..." ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Don't start, Mr Panday, you may ask questions of clarity.

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.  Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that, "We took him to a place with some lawn", do you recall the place?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's a place with some grass.

MR PANDAY: A lawn, yes Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Do you recall the area that you and the others took the victim to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I still remember that place very well.

MR PANDAY: What is that area called?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was the same place like the one that we were residing at, it was just nearby.

MR PANDAY: So there is no name of the area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.

MR PANDAY: You thereafter mentioned that: "we took a decision to punish him".  What sort of punishment did you all administer to the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was discipline, we were hitting him with a cane.  We were using a cane that is used for fishing.

MR PANDAY: So you were using a fishing rod to assault the victim, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Did you in any way - did you personally assault the victim with the fishing rod?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I'm the one who started the assaulting.

MR PANDAY: Can you remember how many times you assaulted the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: 16 each on his buttocks.

MR PANDAY: Who decided that the victim needed to be punished?

CHAIRPERSON: He said they took a decision that he must be punished.  Now, do you want to know who is the "they" he has referred to?

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, the applicant earlier on indicated that they always followed orders and took instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean his evidence right now, now Mr Panday, that's why I was saying we don't want to go back because he has already given evidence which, in my opinion has been quite succinct and doesn't need clarification.  They took a decision, unless you want to elicit who comprises the "they" he has referred to, you may not repeat your question.

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.  Mr Dlamini, when you mentioned "we took a decision to assault him", how many of you took that decision?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is a decision that was taken by all of us that he should be punished.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were there, Mr Dlamini?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The people who did that, the people who assaulted him were two and after that we let him go.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is, how many of you were there when you took a decision that this person must be punished?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: 16 people.

CHAIRPERSON: So all the people residing at the airport rural settlement were there when this decision was taken?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, all of them were there.

CHAIRPERSON: And were all of these people present at the time when you confronted this person as he was sitting under the tree next to Sinangwenye's place?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, they were all present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini after assaulting the victim, what did you all do with the victim thereafter?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We released him.  We told him to go.  After that, after walking just a short distance, Sinangwenye asked a question, a very difficult question, that it even became difficult for us to respond and it was decided to go and call the person back.

CHAIRPERSON: What question did he pose to you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He said, he asked us if we thought about this very well, when we released this person, because he said he was afraid that this person would go and get other IFP members to come back and attack us as usual.

MR PANDAY: After Lucky asked the question, what did you all do thereafter in response to his question?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Some of us went to fetch him and they brought him back and it was further discussed as to what was going to happen.  Sinangwenye said the best option is to kill this person.