Human Rights Violation Hearings — Messina — 1997-04-08

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I can say that early June 1976 during the uprisings, we, we used to meet with people from, young guys from Soweto and they, they have to come to our homes and we had to sit down and discuss politics some times.  We didn't know that amongst us there might have been spies who were information and giving them to the Security Forces.  I was surprised when I got arrested in 1978.  I was arrested on the way.  When I went further trying to investigate as to why I have to go to Petro Mekato, they said maybe it's because they hate the things that we discuss and someone might be taking the information and giving over to the police.  I think our problem was that we were so eager to gain, to know more about politics and anything about politics in Afrikaans and the intimidation by the old system in our education.

RUSSELL ALLY: In your statement you speak about thinking about going to join Unkontowesiswe going into political exile.  Was this something that was part of those discussions that, that you have just now referred to ?  That, that you, that you'd indicated in these discussions that you were perhaps thinking of going to join MK?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I would say, early 1978 I realized that this thing of staying around here with police following me isn't a good thing so I have to cross the country and fight as a nation soldier to defend my people and myself.

RUSSELL ALLY: But you didn't go into exile ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: Yes, I did go to exile.

RUSSELL ALLY: When did you, when did you leave ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I, I left in 1978.

RUSSELL ALLY: .And when you come back ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I came back in 1981, June.

RUSSELL ALLY: And then the interest of the security police in you continued again ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: After I came back, when I tried to find out whether they used to come, I was told that they used to come.  In 1981 I left the place and went to Pretoria.  In 1982 I started working at a place which was a contract employment.  In 1983, August I worked at the (...indistinct) Force.

RUSSELL ALLY: Can you just tell us a bit about what happened between the time that you left, end of '78 and when you came back ?  Did you actually go for military training ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: We went to some military training and we just to go and learn more about politics at, in Bulgaria.  When we had to learn a lot about Communism.   Economics and many other subjects.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you came back into the country as a member of the underground then, as a member of MK when you, when you came back ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I operated as an underground agent, yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, these people who they asked you about.  Did you have, did you just know about them or did you have contact with them ?  Like Peter Nchabalenge for example ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I don't have any information about them and I didn't have that much link.  I didn't meet them that often.  I would say that in our area in Skukune, since 1958 there were uprisings and there were ANC people there and that's, I think that's the reason why they would go around searching for people like me.  Or people who know much about the senior leaders like Peter Nchabalenge and Mr Diyale.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just one last question.   The torture that you were subjected to.  Has it left any long-term, have there been long-term consequences ?  What, what effect has it had on you in the, in, in the long term do you think ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I don't understand the question clearly.

RUSSELL ALLY: The torture that you were subjected to because you speak about being quite severely tortured.  What have the results of this torture been in the long term ?  Are you still affected by it ?  Do you still feel traumatized by it ?  Has it affected your health in any way ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I would say that before I had the problem that they've broken my teeth.  When I was out normally the air will enter into the teeth cavities and it was painful.  I had a, I didn't get a chance to get them re-filled and somewhere in 1987 to '89, I managed to get them re-filled.  I'm not really sure but I didn't have any problems.  I'm, I'm not sure about the future when I get forty how, how I will be.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Miss Seroke !

MS SEROKE: Samson, what are you doing at the moment ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I am a Priest at the moment.

MS SEROKE: Do you have a family ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: Yes I do.

MS SEROKE: How many children do you have ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I have got one child.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata !

THOMAS MANTHATA: Samson I would like to, to take you back.  You said when they came to arrest you while doing a road work, what year was that ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: It was 1978.

THOMAS MANTHATA: During that year, 78, if I understand you well, they asked you about people Pala, Pinta, Peter Nchabaleng, Chuganuga.  Is that true ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: Yes, that's correct.  They asked me about these people.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you explain further, at the moment Chuganuga was in prison.

SAMSON M KODIBONA: As much as I know in politics, at the time while they were investigating about this, they wanted to know whether the children at Skukuna have information about ANC politics, about the ANC strategies to pull down, to bring down the government.

THOMAS MANTHATA: The way you explain, it looks like they just picked you up ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I would say yes, that happened.  I was so surprised too because they didn't ask me much about the information that they have.  They only me, ask me about these people.  Whether I know them or not and I told them that I don't know these people.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At that moment were, were you actively involved in politics or some relatives who were actively involved or who could brief you about politics ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: To say about my family, I would say I had family members.  They didn't tell me much but at school we had teachers who taught  us much about politics and they were, some of them were members of SASO.  One of them whom I know at the time was Stanley Mogoba and brothers of my mother.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What did you know about Stanley Mogoba at that time ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: We knew Stanley Mogoba as a person who was imprisoned because his, of his political involvement but we didn't know much about him.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At the time where was Stanley ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: If I remember well he was in jail at that time.  If I remember well it looks like he was.

THOMAS MANTHATA: He was in a seminar and he was training to be a Priest.  Or let's leave that behind and go forth.  This time in 1978, how long was it since these people, Tata Chabeling and others came back ?  How long was it from the time they came from prison ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I won't know much about that because what I know is that these people were arrested and I didn't have any close link with them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Let's leave that too.  You said from there you got some work.  Where did you work ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I worked at Berco Driegoed in Pretoria and Silverton.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What kind of work were you doing ?

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I was a carpenter.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Didn't you at any time in your life join the South African Defence Force ?  I heard that you might have joined the force.

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I didn't join any of the Departs, Security Department, under the National Government.  I just, I just worked as an ordinary me, member of the society.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You said that you went into exile in 1978 and came back in 1984.

SAMSON M KODIBONA: Yes, I went on 1978 and came back 1991, June.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is it true you went out 19.. .

SAMSON M KODIBONA: I went to exile in 1978, I came back in 1981, June.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you came back, what kind of operation were you doing as an underground agent ?