Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, not that I can remember.

UNKNOWN: And at all the meetings which you attended, what was the message that every time was carried across to you?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The message was that the government was not going to comply with our demands for a Volkstaat and it was stated that we would have to fight for that which was ours and our forefathers if we wanted to retain that.

UNKNOWN: Were the BWB members proponents of a Volkstaat?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, they were very strongly in favour of a Volkstaat.

UNKNOWN: Where would it be situated?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The command was that it would be the old Transvaal, Northern Natal, Natal and the Orange Free State.

UNKNOWN: Is it Northern Natal?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, Northern Natal.

UNKNOWN: Okay, there was a meeting that Mr Harmse testified about which took place at Cullinan and where he stated that the BWB had a show of force, did you also attend that meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the Court what happened at that meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: We met on the smallholding on that particular day, we all wore masks.  We wore our different uniforms, we all carried firearms and we lined up in one long row and the camera focused on all of us to show how many we were, our full strength.  We then drove to Belfast, we met there in a hall decorated with flags on the walls, Boer flags and at the tables there were various BWB officers wearing masks as well and they declared war against the government.

UNKNOWN: If I understand you correctly, the BWB at the meetings also encouraged everybody at the meetings to make war?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I might also add that they distributed pamphlets to incite people to prepare for war.

UNKNOWN: Is that under the BWB members?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And if you say to prepare, what do you mean by that?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The people had to collect adequate medical supplies, food supplies so that if the war were to break out, we had the necessary stock.

UNKNOWN: Did you also attend a meeting where Barend Strydom's wife and her mother addressed the meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that was also just outside Cullinan.

UNKNOWN: What did they say to the meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Okay, Barend Strydom's mother-in-law was called, Trudy and his wife Karin Strydom addressed the meeting and they told the meeting that the men, that the woman should assist the wives in making war.

UNKNOWN: So it was just not aimed at men, everybody had to make war?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Were you at the meeting that Mr Harmse referred to in Rustenburg?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were you involved in the meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, I was not in the meeting itself, I was on guard outside.  Mr Harmse later on informed me what had been said in the meeting.

UNKNOWN: On whose smallholding was this?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: It was just outside Rustenburg, Mr Andrew Ford's smallholding.

UNKNOWN: Did you see Mr Andrew Ford there?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, he was there.

UNKNOWN: Could you please inform the Committee what Mr Harmse had said to you had to take place or did take place there?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse told me that the BWB had told him that they would have a coup d'etat and that at various power
stations they had people on duty who were ready to cut the power and he told me that the officers had also been instructed in their own towns areas to create chaos.

UNKNOWN: Were you a member of Mr Harmse's cell?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you have to carry out his instructions?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I acted directly on his instructions.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any knowledge of the Boer Republican Army?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: What is it?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: It was the military wing of the BWB, like Umkonto We Sizwe would be the military wing of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Did you want to belong to the BRM?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I felt that I would like to join them because I could serve my nation and my country better in their ranks.

UNKNOWN: In your application you stated the previous State President, Mr F.W. de Klerk's announcement regarding religious groups.  Could you please tell us what you meant by that?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Mr de Klerk, F.W. de Klerk, had said that all religious groups would be equal and at that stage I was still at school and even then, religious instruction was taken away at our school.

UNKNOWN: Was that at your school?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: ;	How did you feel about this?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: They took our whole existence away from us, we stand by our religion.  To me it was totally wrong.

UNKNOWN: In the negotiations of CODESA, at that time you were also a member of the BWB?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And there something occurred at CODESA where a large group of people met and drove an armed vehicle through the windows at the conference centre.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Do you know anything about it?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I was instructed to go along.

UNKNOWN: Who instructed you?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse, I also went with him and we went to stop the negotiations.

UNKNOWN: What did you have to do there?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: We just had to protest.

UNKNOWN: Were other BWB members also present?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, there were other members of the BWB.

UNKNOWN: Why did you have to protest there?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Well, we had to protest against the negotiations of the then government in order to hand over our country to the ANC/SACP alliance.

UNKNOWN: During September 1993 when Mr Harmse was in hospital, did he give any instructions to you?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, Mr Harmse instructed me to act in accordance with the training I had received from him by building hand grenades, smoke bombs and other bombs, test them and come and report back to him about the results.

UNKNOWN: You say the training that he had already given you, what type of training had you undergone?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: It was explosives training and various other things.  I may also add that the book to which he referred, the name he couldn't remember, members of the BWB called it
the James Bond Bible.  That's the other one, the one with the recipes which he couldn't remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Froneman, could you perhaps go slightly slower, both for the interpreters and for us who are taking notes here.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I beg your pardon, Your Honour, I will slow down.

UNKNOWN: You say the BWB called it the James Bond Bible?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: So more members of the BWB had access to such a book that just the two of you?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I saw this book at a meeting, I don't know whose book it was.

UNKNOWN: And then did you carry out Mr Harmse's instructions and yourself manufacture hand grenades?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I did so.

UNKNOWN: And later on when Mr Harmse left hospital, was released from hospital, what did you do at that stage?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Well, I was at Mr Harmse's house and he told me that he had received instruction and I received instruction to help him carry out his instructions.

UNKNOWN: Well, what did you do?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: He told me that when I returned home on 16 September  I had to obtain false number plates and then three o'clock the next morning I had to join him at his house.

UNKNOWN: Mr Harmse testified that he had instructed you to go and look for a target, select a target.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: What happened then?