Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, on the basis of your larger submission and on this submission I'd like to make some comment which will be the basis for our questions to you.
 First Sir, we have to face our past, and this submission has to address the past, in particular the past abuses.  The omission at the centre of this submission is the complete silence around the war in which the SADF was involved.  We are told by you, and through your submission, of policies, structures, achievements and the war is mentioned almost tangentially now and then.  
 Apart from the absolute devastating impact of that war on both civilian population of Southern Africa, as well as the SADF's own forces themselves, these structural issues of reorganisation and expansion that you've just described that are so articulately referred to, are completely connected to and dependent on the escalating war situation.   
 The great strides made in SAMS, medical expertise is underpinned precisely by its concrete involvement in the war situation.  In somewhat the same kind of way in which the great strides in medical science made in the 19th century are so intimately connected to colonialism.  Whereas these strides are presented as some great academic and scientific medical achievement. You are silent on the war.  And so I need to lay the basis for our questions.  
 The first question Sir is, were you and SAMS involved in a war during the period of the mandate of the TRC?  Now when I say you, I mean the "royal you".  Sir, you were part of the SANDF and the SANDF was at war in the Southern Region, SADF.

GEN M KNOBEL: May I please start answering your question because I'm going to get ...(intervention)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: The first question I am asking Sir is would you agree that you were in a war situation?

GEN M KNOBEL: Yes I would like to qualify the answer.  Certainly we were involved in the war that the SADF was conducting and I accepted that the submission that had been made to you by the SADF, by John Meiring and Charl Mortimer would have been read along with our submission.  Clearly the Medical Service was totally involved and totally along  that  time.
 But at the same time we would like to point out to you Madam Chair, that at the present time in this country there are more companies deployed within the boundaries of South Africa of the National Defence Force than that were ever deployed in Angola, and I am still totally involved in this war to try and maintain peace and security and to support the Police Service in maintaining law and order.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, I would like to repeat what the Archbishop said this morning.
"A nation that does not face the truth about its  past is likely to repeat it".
Now, in the context of your admission that you were in a war  situation I'd like to pose the following.
 In Chapter 1 of your  submission under the title  "History of the South African Medical Service, SAMS, 1913-1997", the following statements are made, and I quote:
"57. During 1975 and 1976 SAMS provided extensive service to the troops involved in the Angolese Civil War".
And in no.64, and I quote;
"64. SAMS gave medical support in South West Africa during the successful series of attacks on SWAPO bases in Angola during 1978 to 1983.  These  operations included Reindeer, May 1978; Septic, June 1980; Protea, August- September 1981; Daisy, October and November 1981, Supa, March 1982 and Askari, December 1983".
In the light of these descriptions of SAMS' involvement in the war situation,  one, do you have any statistical evidence, data or other information regarding the war and its impact on medical services or other developments?
 The second question coming from this, do you feel, as you have not provided any statistics so far, do you feel that the submission of the SAMS to the TRC can accurately   represent the role  of the SAMS without providing such information?
 Quite frankly Sir, I would have expected some kind of sets from a statistical perspective of the medical impact of this war.  Would you please address those two questions that I presented to you.

GEN M KNOBEL: Certainly Madam Chair.  I would like to point out the following.  When we made our submission the submission was handed in by hand to Dr Wendy Orr.  We were given the indication that we would be given questions that the TRC wanted answered before the 6th of June.  We did receive two questions which we dealt with this morning in a  separate communication with the TRC with a smaller committee.  We had not received any questions from the TRC  until lunch time today when the list of questions that you now have in front of your are being dealt with. In all fairness Madam Chair I would like to say to you that if you give us the necessary time we will provide you with whatever statistical evidence we can give you.
 At the same time I want to make it clear that in a situation where you deploy a very large part of your organisation in support of the Army, the Air Force and the Navy in a day-to-day basis in terms of day-to-day running of their medical requirements but also supporting them in operations, it is extremely difficult to give you an account of what had occurred over a very long period of time.  But I will certainly go back and unearth these statistics and will give you the answers that I can give you.
 When you asked me whether this can accurately represent the role of the SAMS I agree with you, I would very much like to give you a far more complete picture of what the SAMS did.  You heard this morning what was given in evidence here by Sean.  I was quite proud of what he told you here because it showed you exactly what the role was that the Medical Service had to play and under what extremely difficult conditions our medical orderlies, of which he was one, had to try and provide a professional service, not only to our own troops but also to troops that were over from the enemy side and the local population.  And the hospital in which he worked we also looked after the local population in Oshakati.  
 But the answer to your question is, certainly we will try and give you whatever information you require.  But I do think it would be fair to give us more time to give you this information.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, may I say that as you prepare answers to these questions bear in mind that my question is in the context that SAMS is operating within the concept of caring, because that is what medical care is about.  And therefore as you prepare the statistics I'd like you to address a variety of issues that will come out of these questions that relate to the issue of caring.  Thank you.

GEN M KNOBEL: Madam Chair you have my undertaking that every question that you have posed here will be answered fully and truthfully and as completely as possible, exactly in the context that you have put it to me.

ADV POTGIETER: General, just in an attempt to fill in that gap around the war, have you taken note of the questions around your - the questions concerning statistics concerning your involvement in Angola and Namibia?

GEN M KNOBEL: Yes I have.

ADV POTGIETER: You've got all those questions?

GEN M KNOBEL: I've got these questions in front of me that were given to me at lunch time.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay.  So you will attempt to furnish us with those statistics as well?

GEN M KNOBEL: That's exactly what I have undertaken to do and I said I would do so as completely and as honestly as what I can possibly do.  And I will also tell you if I do not have the statistics available.

ADV POTGIETER: That's fine.  We will see if we can help you.  Now what about the question concerning the role of SAMS in ensuring that the SADF complied with the Geneva Convention, can you shed any light on that, the questions and the sub-questions in regard to that?