Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

WOUTER J BASSON: That is not quite correct, the pre-study was done by myself and Mr Burger.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But now why would you want to point the finger at the unfortunate Mr van Zyl, while leaving your name out and Mr Burger's name?

WOUTER J BASSON: Can you just repeat your question please?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, maybe we can just - there's a noise going on.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't what it is, perhaps if somebody can look.
	The question was, if Mr van Zyl was not involved in the pre-study and as you say you and Mr Burger were involved in that study, why do you say on page 48, second last sentence, that it was Van Zyl?
"Van Zyl executed the plan"
Sorry, it's the one before that:
"The pre-study was done by the mentioned Abram van Zyl."

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I cannot give a specific reason why it was indicated as such in the document, but the fact remains that the pre-study was not done by him.  He was told to, with the means at his disposal, to continue and to execute this task.  It was there - it was for no other reason that he is mentioned there.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any sort of fallout between Mr van Zyl and yourself or Mr Burger or ...?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Mr Chairperson, there was never - like I've said it could just be the wrong choice of words, but it is not true.

MR LAX: But - sorry, it's not a wrong choice of words, it's a lie and it's a total untruth.

WOUTER J BASSON: If you want to see it in that way, yes it is, but at that stage it could be that I just couldn't recall, or we couldn't recall how it happened, if Van Zyl was involved in the pre-study or not, because we didn't have any documentation in front of us to refresh our memories and that is a mistake that was made.

MR LAX: And you could have said you weren't sure in this document.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, I could have said it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: On page 46 under the heading
"The Gavin Evans Incident"
you'll see in that first paragraph you say you decided to monitor Evans in order to establish if he was involved in activities which undermined the security of the State.  Now ...(intervention)

WOUTER J BASSON: That's also not correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In fact it's plainly false.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, there were already indications that he was involved.

MR LAX: Why did you say that?  What was your objective?  You see we're sitting here to try and understand why you said that and you're obliged to explain to us why you lied in your amnesty application.

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, it was not the intention to lie, at that stage it was written in such a way.  I cannot tell you if it was for a specific purpose or not.  If you testify about something at a later stage you accept that it will be the truth, but I cannot tell you why there are so many mistakes in the application and it also seems to me that it does not appear very well.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At page 48 down at the bottom you say
"After the project was approved and set in motion, (you say that) Evans couldn't be traced and accordingly the plan was not set in motion and no attempt was made to eliminate him."
You with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yet we know from Van Zyl's evidence that can't be true because an attempt was indeed made to kill him, tot he extent that the murderers were flown to Johannesburg and sent out to go and stab Evans, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So your statement isn't true.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"No attempt was made"
that can't be true.  What's your answer?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What's correct, your statement is untrue when you say that no attempt was made?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The next sentence is also untrue, where you say
"As a result of this we decided to terminate the project"
because you've already admitted when I cross-examined you about the diary, that the project was not terminated.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And I assume once again you're not in a position to explain why you told those lies in your application?  You've got no idea why?

WOUTER J BASSON: Just repeat the last one.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I said you don't have any idea, you don't want to put forward any explanation as to why you told these two lies.

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, except for the fact that as I've said, the application was prepared and I saw it as the truth and I accepted it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then dealing with the Omar incident, once again, last paragraph page 49 you say
"A decision was made to monitor him to establish if he was involved in activities which undermine the security of the State."
Once again that's not true, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's the wrong choice of words.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's false, it's not a incorrect choice of words.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then the following page, page 50 the middle paragraph you say you received this information that Mr Omar was indeed involved in radical political activities and once again you repeat the lie that this information couldn't be placed before a court of law, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, it's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And for that reason the CCB had to take action against him, that's also untrue.  Then you say
"The decision was then taken that Omar must be eliminated."
Now who made the proposal that Omar should be eliminated?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I cannot specifically remember this ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe can I help you, because Mr van Zyl says that you, it was your proposal.

WOUTER J BASSON: Well I will deny it because in my capacity I was not authorised to make such a suggestion, there was a Regional Chairperson who had to take the lead ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: I didn't ask you whether you made the ultimate decision.  Maybe I can read Mr van Zyl's evidence to you, this is at the Harms Commission, pages 800 to 801.  He says, he's talking about the Omar case, he says
"The suggestion of elimination came initially from the Co-ordinator.  I had to do a pre-study as a result of that suggestion."

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I cannot give an instruction to Slang van Zyl while there's a Regional Chairperson present.  I deny that I gave this instruction.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He was asked who proposed - you see he says he got this information about Omar, then he was asked who proposed Omar's elimination, he says - on the basis of this information, and he says it was you.  I'm not asking you whether you - we know you didn't have the ultimate authority to approve the project, all I'm asking you is, was he telling an untruth to the Harms Commission where he says that the proposal that Omar be eliminated, originally came from you?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, it is possible that in our discussion with Mr Verster he may have mentioned to us to continue and that I could have then said to Van Zyl that because of the circumstances, because Mr Burger was not present, this is also possible, but the initiation did not come purely from my side.  It could be that I conveyed it as a message from Mr Verster, but once again it had to be conveyed to Burger, so that he can continue.  I cannot say that he's lying.  I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now this evidence, sorry this averment in your statement, page 51, that the project, one of the reasons why the project had to be terminated was because it was found that the so-called Coloured person was sympathetic towards Mr Omar, you with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now we've already heard Mr van Zyl said he never said anything of the sort, he never suggested that Mr Hardien had become sympathetic towards Mr Omar, he said he was unreliable - sorry, not Hardien, Peaches.

WOUTER J BASSON: My recollection is that that statement is the truth.