Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, and those words were, I believe yesterday it was interpreted, that was with reference to certain members within the community, they weren't welcome or they were going to be chased out?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, exactly.

MR CLAASSEN: Could you just, what exactly was said?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: They were saying, Umkhoza Imbata and Impondo should leave Zevenfontein because that was an IFP area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, and is it correct Mr Dastile, by the reference to the Xhosa, the Bata and the Pondo, it wasn't, they were alluding to ANC, or was it an ethnic thing?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I am quite certain that they directed this towards the ANC because they were discussing or mentioning this known that these people belongs to the ANC.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile could you perhaps indicate why this happened, in view of the fact that there had not been any obvious previous animosity between the two parties.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I think it is also a surprise to me to this day.  I still want to know what reason there was for this to happen.  I thought I would come across the reason here, at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, upon hearing this, you testified that you went to your brother and indicated that they were going to beat you up.  Did you, you did not, I presume the, perceive this as a hollow threat?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I do not quite understand.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you take these people serious?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, in the manner in which they were talking I took them seriously because it was for the first time I heard them talking that way.

MR CLAASSEN: You testified you went to your brother and told him what had happened.  What was his response to this?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: He said, "...These people will never do that, they are used to saying such things, but they will never do that."

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile you also further testified, if I understood you correctly, that you did not go back to your own shack but you hanged around with your brother.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, I hanged around at that time, right up to the end of their meeting.

MR CLAASSEN: What meeting is that that you refer to now?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I'm talking about the Inkatha meeting, the one that was at their office.

MR CLAASSEN: When was the end of this meeting?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It would have been around twelve, to half past twelve, because they had left the sports field by one o'clock.

MR CLAASSEN: And what did you do then?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is when I saw an opportunity to go back home to prepare lunch.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile and you said about three o'clock Sister and Bonisana came to your house and reported this alleged incident at Moloesi's shebeen to you.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile could you indicate why would they go to you?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It is because I was one of their leaders, and they knew that I was available to assist them.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile was your brother involved in this, in the resolving of this incident?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: When, when did you inform him, and what did he do?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: He had already been informed.  I did not inform him myself.  I'm saying he was with me when we went to resolve the problem.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, you also testified yesterday you saw people going down the street, Maxwell April, William and Caswell.  You all went to Moloesi's shebeen.  Why did all these people go down to Moloesi's?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: They went there as leaders to monitor the situation at Moloesi's place.  He wanted to have the problem solved.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you perceive what had happened as a political incident?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, that is not how we perceived it.

MR CLAASSEN: Then why, Mr Dastile, did all the people who you've indicated were all leading figures within the ANC, go to monitor the situation?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It is because we were leaders of these people.  These people had come to us on experiencing a problem, and it therefore was our responsibility.  There was this problem about the IFP, and we had an agreement, an existing agreement, to solve whatever problems that may have cropped up between the IFP and the ANC.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, upon arriving at Moloesi's shebeen, you said that, on the report that Sister gave you, that Mr Mpongosi and Sithole had already left and you found a lot of people there.  Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: What was the mood like there?  What were these people doing?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was tense.  People were very angry.  It was a lot of noise.

MR CLAASSEN: If you say it was tense and they were very angry, with whom were they angry?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: These people who had witnessed the incident, these are the residents of the area.

MR LAX: No the question was with who were they angry?  We know that they had witnessed something, but who were they angry with?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: They were angry at Sithole and Mpongosi, the ones who are responsible for the incident at Moloesi's place.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, weren't they angry towards the IFP, or perceived this as a violation from the side of the IFP?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: They were noisy because of what Sithole and Mpongosi did, not the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, and at that stage did you have any  fear that any incident might occur, or any reprisal might take place?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: You mean an action or a reaction by these people?

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.  Yes we saw a possibility of such a thing happening.

MR CLAASSEN: What do you mean when you say, such a thing.

CHAIRPERSON: The reprisal.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Possibility of a reprisal or a reaction to, these people reacting to the problem.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Dastile, you said you found a lot of people milling around there.  How many people would you estimate were at Moloesi's at that stage?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I did not count them.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it five, three, 50, 100?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was a group that could have been far much more than ten.

MR LAX: That's why we're asking you to give us an estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there 100, or?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, there were far much less than 100.  They could have been, maybe ten if not more than ten.

CHAIRPERSON: Ten to 20 people?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, they could not be 20.  It was quite a smaller group.  Smaller than 20.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, and you also went on to say, "... people heard and were coming."  Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, we received information that Mpongosi and others were coming to shoot.

MR CLAASSEN: I don't think I understood you correctly.  If I understood your evidence correctly you meant that more people heard about the incident and were coming to, to join the people at the shebeen.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I did not get you quite well now.  I don't know whether that's how I put it.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I may.

CHAIRPERSON: If think what, sorry.  I think what Mr Claassen is saying to you, is when you were giving your evidence-in-chief, you mentioned that while you were there at the shebeen people came in, they came from around and they gathered gradually, people who had heard about the incident.  They came to see what was happening, and that crowd that was in the shebeen, the less than 20 crowd, more and more people with time came.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Dastile and this group that you just explained grew considerably?