Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

UNKNOWN: Yes, the question is did you anticipate that, was that part of your thinking process, before you launched that attack or that operation?

MR MASEKO: We are always taking each and every mission, we know that such things can happen, a shooting can take place.

UNKNOWN: So when the, as you say, the assault group went into the building and you remained outside, you knew that if resistance was encountered, shooting would happen and possibly, a very real possibility that people would be killed?  Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: In each and every war people die.
ADV. GCABASHE: If I may just ask here - as I understand the question, it relates to this particular incident, it would assist us as the Committee if you can explain how you saw or how you had planned to deal with that resistance at this particular time for this particular incident.  We understand the general approach but as I understand the questions that relate to this incident and it would help us to understand the planning and the anticipation that you foresaw for this particular incident.
If we are talking about an incident we are talking about something different, we are talking about peoples lives and operations that were properly planned.  We knew that if there's resistance we are supposed to fight, we are compelled to fight so I want to clarify this term - we are not talking about incident here it's about soldiers, peoples lives, things that are known to the O.A.U.  Things that ended up where there were talks about Apartheid, Apartheid that was actually taking the people's rights, taking away the people's rights.
ADV. GCABASHE: Mr Maseko, the shooting that took place at UNITRA, that is the particular incident we are dealing with now.  You know that there are others that we will deal with at a later stage.  This particular one relates to UNITRA, the auditorium and the shooting that took place there.  Now the planning around that, what you as a unit anticipated - these are the questions that we need a bit of clarity on.

MR MASEKO: The plan was that we are going to shoot first if something is happening.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I see in the report, the subsequent intelligence report at page 22 of the bundle, that there were two R5 automatic rifles that were taken on this operation.  Were these weapons, the two R5 weapons, were they in the possession of the assault group, that is the group that went into the university administration premises?

MR MASEKO: They were in possession of the support group.

UNKNOWN: Alright, let's be more specific can you identify the persons who actually went into the admin premises and took the money?  Who were those persons?

MR MASEKO: Six people went inside the building.

UNKNOWN: Is that contained at paragraph 12?  Mzee, Ayanda, Haspa, Jomo, Liza and Kagee?  Are those the persons who entered the building?

MR MASEKO: Yes, those were the people who were in the assault group.

UNKNOWN: I see and weapons that they carried were two R5 assault rifles, one Uzi, is that correct thus far?

MR MASEKO: Those who were in the possession of the support group.

UNKNOWN: And an Uzi is a 9 mm. machine gun, is that correct?  It's an automatic weapon?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And the assault group how were they armed can you tell us, what weapons did they carry?

MR MASEKO: I said support group had the rifles and the Uzi and assault group had small rifles.

UNKNOWN: Well let me help you, the list - what remains on the list is a 38 special revolver, a German Mauser - is that as rifle, pistol?

MR MASEKO: No it's not a rifle it's a pistol.

UNKNOWN: Okay and a Lama 6,5 that's a pistol and two parabellum, is that a 9 mm?

MR MASEKO: It's a mistake it's only one parabellum, it's a mistake.
ADV. GCABASHE: But is that a pistol, what size, is that a pistol?

MR MASEKO: Yes it is a pistol.
ADV. PRIOR: I just want to refer you to page 28 of the paginated papers - it's a statement of - beg your pardon 25, it's a statement of Mphumalanga Arthur Wadiso who was a witness at the scene.  He was in the auditorium on the 18th February '93 and he says and I refer to paragraph 2, round about the middle of the paragraph:  "I saw one strange young black male who was strange to me and he was coming up the stairs having two firearms on his hand, he approached me and ordered me to lie down."   It was put to you by Mr Nodada for the victims whether anyone was carrying two firearms, do you remember that?

MR MASEKO: It's not like that.
ADV. GCABASHE: Sorry, could you explain that, what is not like that?

MR MASEKO: The fact that there was a person who has two arms with two firearms that's not true.

UNKNOWN: Mr Maseko as the commander, when you briefed the members of your unit particularly the assault group, did they know exactly what to do and where to go or was it pretty much they had to play it by ear or they had to improvise as they went along?  What is the position, did they have specific instructions as what to do inside the building or did they had to just improvise as they went along in obtaining the money?  Can you help us there?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can explain that.  Assault group was supposed to go inside and wait for their commander to tell them what to do - they were the people who were going to take the money - they were supposed to help each other, two of them were supposed to help each to take money.  The support group was supposed to help the people who were inside to take - because some of them - if one person was trying to disturb them had a firearm, they would take that firearm also.  That was the duty of the support group.  In the same support group two of them would stand at the door right inside to make a point that there's no one coming in or going out.  They were supposed to monitor those inside, whoever who would try and prevent them from doing what they were supposed to do there, that was one assistance that they would get from the support group.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  It's clear that the target was a civilian target if I put it that way, had been identified as a civilian target.

MR MASEKO: I have a difficulty in what you're saying?

UNKNOWN: Well I'm having difficulty understanding as well.  The people who were involved, I'm not talking about APLA, the people involved at the university were civilian people, they were people with no military connection as you identified that situation, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is why I'm saying I have difficulty because the Africans they speak about the civilians and target but when the Africans are dying that term is not used.  The boers are always killing children up to 6 months babies but the word, that is not being mentioned, civilians or whatever.  That's why I'm saying I'm having a difficulty in understanding that.

UNKNOWN: You see that we know that one person died there, he was shot by your unit and two other persons were also shot and injured by your unit.  Did you identify the university as being a military type target?  That's what I'm trying to drive at, do you agree that there were civilian doing their civilian jobs, that is working for the administration of the university?

MR MASEKO: There were police in private clothes and you never know what's happening because they had arms.

UNKNOWN: But your intelligence had informed you that there were security guards from the university that would be in attendance with such a large amount of money being collected there.  I mean you knew that?

MR MASEKO: I knew that.

UNKNOWN: And would it also be correct to suggest to you that in order to get rid of that problem or potential problem of being thwarted, stopped in your objective, those security guards had to be taken out as quickly as possible?  In other words they had to be neutralised?