Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

WALTER SMILES: We were three, I can't remember who the other person was.

MR TSHOLANKU: You mentioned that he gave you an order, can you remember exactly how the order was structured when the order was given to you?

WALTER SMILES: Repeat it.

MR TSHOLANKU: You mentioned that he gave you an order, can you remember exactly how the order was structured when he gave you this particular order?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct, the order was that I had to take care that nobody would be injured but the hand grenade should go in but unfortunately at the moment when I threw it, that was the time when the security guard came out and the hand grenade fell on his face and then it caused the death and injury.  But the aim of the hand grenade was not aimed at Mokone.

MR TSHOLANKU: He gave you an order, did he - prior or after giving you this order, explain to you the reason why he wants you to throw this hand grenade?  Did he explain to you?

WALTER SMILES: Explain it.

MR TSHOLANKU: He gave you an order and said you must launch or throw this hand grenade into the building - now what I want you to tell the Committee is, did he give you a reason or a motivation as to why he wants you to throw in the hand grenade into the building?

WALTER SMILES: The reason was that we are close to the Bophuthatswana building - they were the people repressing the people in Bophuthatswana and they didn't have any feelings for the people, that is why I accepted the order.

MR TSHOLANKU: Did you not question this order?  Did you question the order?

WALTER SMILES: No.

MR TSHOLANKU: When you launched this or threw this hand grenade into the - towards the building itself, did you know what you were doing?  Did you have experience pertaining to throwing of hand grenades?

WALTER SMILES: The experience - I had experienced to throw but not really training.

MR TSHOLANKU: So, if I understand you correctly, you were trained on how to throw the hand grenade not with the hand grenade itself?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear your question.

MR TSHOLANKU: My questions was whether he had experience in throwing of hand grenades and the response was he knew how to throw the hand grenade but not the hand grenade - he never had training with hand grenades themselves.  The follow-up thereto was whether - do I understand him to say he knew how to throw hand grenades but he had never had training whatsoever with the throwing of a live hand grenade itself and his was yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is he saying he had never thrown a hand grenade before?

MR TSHOLANKU: Let me clear it up with him Madam.
	Mr Smiles, before this incident itself - before the blast at the Trust Bank Centre in Kimberley, have you ever had - have you thrown a hand grenade before?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Was this the second time that you had thrown a grenade in your ...[intervention]

WALTER SMILES: Yes, at a military base in Galishewe.

MR TSHOLANKU: Have you applied for amnesty for that particular incident?

WALTER SMILES: Those are things that Mr Rodney and Mr Denzil had to handle - we have applied.

MR TSHOLANKU: There has been reference to a number of statements, amongst others statements of Sipho Mbatwa who says he's the person that threw the hand grenade on this particular incident.  Can you share any comments with us pertaining to that?

MR VISSER: Sipho Mbatwa didn't give that evidence Mr Chairman, may I just remind you.

MR TSHOLANKU: Sipho Mbatwa did not give that evidence but statements made by Sipho Mbatwa have been referred to - that's exactly how I couched my question, I'm inviting a comment from Mr Smiles pertaining to factors that are already in the possession of the Committee, that Sipho Mbatwa is the person that said he - I could be wrong with the name, but one of the convicted individuals - let me just confirm the name of the convicted individual so as not cause any confusion.

MR VISSER: My learned friend refers to Mtemukosi Nkotla Mr Chairman, there's nothing wrong with ...[intervention]

MR TSHOLANKU: Mtemukosi Nkotla, Mr Chairman - I'm sorry, that is how I wanted to couch my question to Mr Smiles.  If I may continue?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Visser, it's Nkosinatu not ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Not Mtemukosi, I'm sorry, it's Nkosinatu Nkotla yes - but then the question is correct.

MR TSHOLANKU: If I may continue Mr Chairman.
	There is information before the Committee that somebody else by the name of Nkosinatu was the person that lobbed or threw the hand grenade to the Trust Bank Centre, what is your comment pertaining to that?

WALTER SMILES: That is not correct.  I want to explain, it wasn't them.

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Smiles, reference was also made to a statement that is purported to have been made by yourself on the 27th day September '93, wherein you in paragraph 7 say
"The hand grenade you got from somebody that is unknown to you but who allegedly comes from Johannesburg"
Do you remember that statement?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I remember it.

MR TSHOLANKU: Can you explain that particular paragraph - that you got this hand grenade from somebody that came from Johannesburg?

WALTER SMILES: During that time, there wasn't time to really give information because I didn't trust the police with what they could do with my commander if I told them.  And then secondly, I had to ensure it and I had to protect him and so I had to say that I got it from Johannesburg but today we're here to talk the truth and what happened is that I actually got it from him.

MR TSHOLANKU: Now, are you saying the sole reason why paragraph 7 was included in that statement was to afford your commander some form of protection, do I understand you to say that?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Now, there's also a statement which is purported to have been made by yourself on the 8th day of June '96 where in one of the paragraphs I think - do you know that statement, if I may ask?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you get there - do you have a copy of your statement dated 27th September 1993?

MR TSHOLANKU: He does have Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your signature appearing on page 3?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you - is that your signature appearing at the bottom of pages 1 and 2?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then we can take this to be Exhibit A.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  There's also a statement dated the 8th day of June 1996 ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you tell us in which bundle and the page on that bundle?

MR TSHOLANKU: Madam, it was ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Page 11, bundle 2.

MR TSHOLANKU: Yes, unfortunately mine is not part of the bundle, it's a loose page.
	Now, do you know the statement that was made on the 8th day of June 1996 by yourself?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Are you aware of the contents of that particular statement?

WALTER SMILES: Repeat it.

MR TSHOLANKU: Are you aware of the contents of that particular statement?

WALTER SMILES: No.

MR TSHOLANKU: That was made by yourself on the 8th day of June 1996?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Do you agree with what is in that particular statement?

WALTER SMILES: No, I don't agree but I can remember the statement.

MR TSHOLANKU: Can you explain to the Committee why don't you agree with the contents of this statement that you made of the 8th day of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, what does this witness mean when he says he's not aware of the contents?  I don't understand whether he's saying he did make this statement, things which stand in here did come from him but they are not true or whether he is saying: "These things in here did not even come from me".