Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

INTERPRETER: The witness is emotionally affected.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebotso, can you continue or would you like a short break?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I'll try to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: The last question asked to you was: "After this man said you must die in peace, goodbye, what happened then"?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: After he said those words, after some time, the person I was with, that is Mr Fyfe, he said we should run away.  I said to him he can leave, I'm okay.

MR HENDRICKSE: Yes, and then?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I lay on the ground.  Around 4 o'clock I woke up but I heard some car noises and then I realised that I had been shot.

MR HENDRICKSE: Did you then wake up and proceed home?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Yes, I woke up then I was - on my way I was falling on the ground.  After passing Mandela Drive, I met my cousin and he helped me.  Me met with another two ladies who were crying.  They helped me to go home.

MR HENDRICKSE: When you reached your home, what happened then?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: They took me to my brother and my brother sought a car to take me to the hospital.

MR HENDRICKSE: Which hospital?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That's Victoria Hospital.

MR HENDRICKSE: Were you detained in Victoria Hospital?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: In Victoria Hospital, the way I learnt they said the hospital is full and they sent me to Klerksdorp Hospital.

MR HENDRICKSE: Were you then hospitalised in Klerksdorp for a period of time?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Yes, they sent to me to Klerksdorp Hospital.

MR HENDRICKSE: How long were you in hospital?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I thought I stayed there four days.

MR HENDRICKSE: Tell me, has anybody claimed responsibility for your shooting?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: No-one claimed responsibility.

MR HENDRICKSE: Have you received any compensation for being shot?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: No, I didn't receive any compensation.

MR HENDRICKSE: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HENDRICKSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hendrickse.
	Mr Terreblanche, do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.
	Sir, the people who shot you, were they alone in a vehicle or was it only this one vehicle, or were the other vehicles too?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: The people who shot me were driving in one car.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the other cars with that vehicle or was the vehicle alone, do you know?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I was not aware because cars used to travel in that road but that car which was driven by the people who shot us, I heard them say that, they spoke those words which I told you and thereafter they got out of the car and shot us.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you very much.  So you cannot say if there were other vehicles in front or behind that vehicle?  Do you mean when you say the pulled off all the other cars passed?  You only remember this one vehicle, is that correct?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Yes.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you very much.  You say the people were clothed in khaki clothes?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Yes.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You do not know who these people are?  There were Boers in the dorp, do you know - they were white people in khaki clothes, do you know which political affiliation they belonged to?  They did not say who they were did they?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I said they said to us: "Today you are going to die".  They did not identify themselves or to which organisation they belonged.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you very much.  So you can tell this Commission that you do not know to which organisation they belonged?  You don't know if they were AWB or if they were from the Volksfront but all you know is that they were white people dressed in khaki?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: They way I observed they were members of AWB because those were the people who were shooting people in town.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So you thought they were members of the AWB because you heard that the AWB shot other people, is that correct?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Yes, you're telling the truth.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TERREBLANCHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Terreblanche.
	Mr van der Berg, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, did you describe this event to Mr Menyatsoe?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Which Menyatsoe are you talking about?

MR VAN DER BERG: The applicant who is here today, the one who is applying for amnesty.  He's sitting over there with the black shirt, did you tell him what happened to you?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Do you mean today or at that time?

MR VAN DER BERG: Did you tell him at any time and if indeed, when?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I don't understand, where did I meet him?

CHAIRPERSON: The question, Mr Lebotso is, have you at any stage told Mr Menyatsoe, the applicant in this matter, about what happened to you, about what you've told us now?  Have you at any stage spoken to him before?  If not, say so.  If you have then Mr van der Berg wants to know when it was you told him, if you did at all.

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I did not tell him.

MR VAN DER BERG: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: No, questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Hendrickse?

MR HENDRICKSE: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HENDRICKSE

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No, questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: I've got none, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, Mr Lebotso, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendrickse?

MR HENDRICKSE: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, at this stage I would like to hand up to you and Members of this Commission, extracts from the Tebbutt Commission which deals with the background of the events around the area.
	I've discussed this with my learned friend, Mr van der Berg, Mr Mpshe as well as with Mr Terreblanche.  Mr van der Berg has not an objection per se but he would like to outline his stance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr van der Berg?

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you Chairperson.  Chairperson, we appear on behalf of Mrs Uys and she does not know if that information is correct or not, so the correctness of that information cannot be ascribed to, but if they Committee can read it and take notice of it then we do not have a problem with that.
	There are a lot of facts there, but the bit that is handed in is not the finding per se, it's says what happened there but a lot of the information is not verified.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr van der Berg, we will take note of that and we do accept it as being the gospel truth as to what occurred on that occasion but we receive it on the basis as it is handed in by Mr Hendrickse, just to give some sort of background, but we won't depend on it for arriving at any firm conclusions.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if I may come in here on this aspect, just to assist the Committee, Mr Chairman.  The bundle that has been handed in, the pages 40 to 108, the Committee may read that in conjunction with what is in the bundle from page 13 to page 16.  It's also almost the same as what is in these pages handed up.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.  Yes, we'll just mark this Tebbutt Commission Report as B.
	Yes, Mr Hendrickse?

MR HENDRICKSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman that concludes the evidence on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terreblanche?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Chairperson, I'm not quite sure if this is an opportunity for argument.  There are no witnesses I want to call.  I'll keep to the regulations of this Committee.