Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: (Indistinct - speaker's mike not on)
"... Clive Derby-Lewis. Reconnaissance was also done on Mandela's house".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, about the list, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, where were ...

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

GEORGE BIZOS: No, Mr Chairman, what I ...

JUDGE WILSON: You referred the witness to the list, to the picture of Mandela's house on it.

GEORGE BIZOS: After I asked the question, the witness asked what document was I reading from ...

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... previously and I understood him to want that reference.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, you told us that.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's why ...

JUDGE WILSON: I am now asking you for the reference to the list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  It is Bundle A, page 30.  Now is this the list that you and Kuba had?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please have a look at page 65 of R4 and page 30 of Bundle A.  Will you please look at the last paragraph on page 65?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is the typed version of your statement.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Kuba and I subsequently discussed the list and listed the names in order of importance."
Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I just want to check when the statement was made, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I have no objection to the instructing attorney of Mr Derby-Lewis showing him documents, but I would appeal that he does not talk to him when a question is being asked.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he is indicating documents to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: I have no objection to that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And where you are referring to on the documents.

GEORGE BIZOS: I have no objection.  The last paragraph, page 65.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Kuba and I subsequently then discussed the list and listed the names in order of importance."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that a correct statement or a false statement?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, I said this and also in terms of priority.

GEORGE BIZOS: Importance for what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As regards their enmity towards us, towards the Conservative Party and its cause.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, was this an anti-popularity list or a murder list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it was not a murder list, it was an address list drawn up by somebody else.

GEORGE BIZOS: So the person which, the person who was the most against you and the most unpopular amongst you, was Mr Mandela, because he is A1.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was the most important, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Now during the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion. He did not know nor ask why they were there."
Now if it was merely a list in order to show enmity, why were other names put there in order to cause confusion?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I mentioned in my explanation for paragraphs 44, 45 and 46, that was also portion of where I was talking to protect my wife.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That statement was also aimed at that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please just give me a direct simple answer.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's the answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... Mr Chairman, I can't ...

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the purpose of confusing people about names on the list if it was not a murder list?  You would not be concerned about listing people whom you did not like?  There was no need to confuse anybody about the order in which you didn't like people.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I have already stated, that sentence was there to mislead the security branch personnel and it was part of my effort to protect my wife. It had nothing to do with the actual situation.

GEORGE BIZOS: It begs the question, Mr Derby-Lewis,  what did your wife need protection from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have already testified to that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did your wife need protection from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: From the actions of ruthless people in the security branch who  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: What ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Who were determined to use her to get me to make a full confession, even if it meant persecuting her.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now please, try and come to terms with the question, Mr Derby-Lewis. If the list was not a murder list, what did your wife need protection from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She needed protection, Mr Chairman, in spite of the fact that it wasn't a murder list and in spite of the fact that I didn't draw it up,  she needed protection from the fact that she was the person who asked Mr Kemp to get these addresses.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, you are an experienced politician.  Please answer the question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

GEORGE BIZOS: During the discussions - just listen for a moment, please.
"During the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion."
You have already told us that that is correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, you didn't?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I said that that was part of the protection of my wife, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I think Mr Bizos is an experienced, sufficiently experienced advocate to understand what I am saying.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I accept your criticism. (Applause).  I accept your criticism.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't hear you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you say that
"During the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To mislead ...

GEORGE BIZOS: "He did not know or ask why they were there."
Why did you say that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To mislead the security police who were interrogating me.

GEORGE BIZOS: How were you misleading them and how were you protecting your wife by saying that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was misleading them into believing that there were other reasons behind the preparation of the list, and that's why those names were on there and it was clearly those names were not part of a hit list because there was never an intention to murder the nine people who were on that list. There was never that intention, Mr Chairman, and no evidence even was produced in the trial to that effect.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In fact, as I explained in my testimony earlier the police, when they discovered this address list in Kuba's flat, released - they leaked the information to the media, and they dubbed it a hit list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Derby-Lewis, what is the confusion that - what is the confusion that was supposed to be caused?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there wasn't confusion that was supposed to be caused.  The statement during the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion.  I mentioned that to confuse the security branch in an attempt to protect my wife.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In which way do you confuse, that's what I want to know, what is the confusion that you are talking about?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was just something that I latched onto, Mr Chairman, for inclusion in this, to give it a feasible explanation for not - for the names that were on the list, that were not political targets, in other words.  You know, there were a lot of names on this list who were not political targets in - beyond anyone's wildest imagination. They could never have been classified as political targets.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Derby-Lewis, if you had wanted to protect your wife, why did you mention Mr Kemp so frequently?  That was a direct contact to your wife, wasn't it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, but I knew that my wife had a legitimate reason for getting the list.