Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I have two short aspects.  I note it's five past eleven, I don't know if you wish to take the adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) of those aspects.

MR DA SILVA: They should take approximately 10 minutes, at the outset.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Well if you want to continue and finish you can do so.

MR DA SILVA: I'm going to go over to a new aspect, Mr Chairman, so if you find it appropriate to take the adjournment now we can take it now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Well I suppose you know, we have the interpreters who might want to take a break and the witness too.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, let me remind you, hopefully for the last time, that you are still under oath.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr da Silva.

MR DA SILVA: (Cont)
	Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you go on, there are a number of documents which are being given to us from time to time during the course of the proceedings and one doesn't know what one does with these documents and where they come from and for what they are intended.  I think perhaps as a matter of procedure, if there is a document that is intended to be added in, could we be notified so that we know that there is a document and then it can be marked appropriately, because otherwise it will just get lost in this mass of documentation that we have.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, if I could explain.  You will know that I was asking for a long time for a copy of the interview that was referred to in Mr Malan's affidavit ...

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes, yes, indeed.

UNKNOWN: ... and I asked Mr Mapoma to make copies of that for me.  I was going to hand it in and have it made an exhibit number and then unbeknown to me it was handed out before I could do that.  So I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's okay, it's okay, it's been done before.

UNKNOWN: But perhaps it should be marked Exhibit FF.

CHAIRPERSON: FF, alright.  And then it goes up to 10, 10 pages.

UNKNOWN: It's a 10 page document, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Let me just make a record here.  Very well, the interview by Riaan Malan with Pedro Peens will then be marked Exhibit FF.  At this stage there's no mention as to what is the status of this document suffice it to say that it purports to be what it is.

UNKNOWN: It's the interview which is referred to by Mr Malan himself in his affidavit.  He says that a transcript of the interview was given to the TRC, or to the Amnesty Committee.  This is that interview.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, okay.  Well perhaps I should make a note of that.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, it is referred to at page 9, paragraph 22.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 22, page ...

UNKNOWN: Of Malan's affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Do you accept that, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: I do, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, alright.

UNKNOWN: The other point is that Mr Baloyi has a concern which he wanted to raise with you, Chairperson.  He was trying to do that now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying that here, as we are sitting here it happened that on Tuesday two people went to my house whilst I was still here.  They went to measure, to take measurements.  I would like to ask as to whether that is legally permissable, to leave the owner of the house behind and go into his house.  If that indeed happened, I would like for these people to come forward and apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Would counsel investigate these allegations made by Mr Baloyi and then report back to me just before lunch or perhaps at the end of the day today.

MR LOWIES: I can assist you in that regard, Chair, at this moment already if you would like me to.  Mr Strydom, myself, Ms Pretorius went out to the place, we stook outside in the road to see what we could observe.  End of story, nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Well as I understand the allegation, it is that you went inside the premises.

MR LOWIES: No, that is denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, we were five, but the three of us here, my attorney and Mr Tshabangu, Nana.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not enter the premises?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I know that people did enter the premises.  Excuse me, I have neighbours so that when you went there they were watching.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, what you're telling me is what was reported to you, is that right, you were not there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I have asked your counsel to investigate that matter and then to report to us probably either the end of, well perhaps tomorrow morning before we start, how is that?  I think that will give them enough time.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, but I am told now that Adv Lowies, Pretorius and Strydom, together with their instructing attorney and Tshabangu, one of the applicants, went to Boipatong and they did not enter your house, the premises of your house, okay?  Very well.  Mr da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Before I proceed with questioning Mr Baloyi, may I place the following facts in regard to the canister which is at the end of the hall, on record, Mr Chairman.
	I stood where Mr Baloyi is seated and I measured the distance from where he is seated till where the canister is, and that is 26 paces.  From where Mr Baloyi is seated I could observe the full number which is in the canister.  It is a white canister, the number is written in red letters.  It could possibly be interpreted as a telephone number and the number is 33-4771, 33-4771.  In fairness to the witness, the first downstroke of the 4 is indistinct.  I measured the length of the figures, they are six centimetres long.  I've also measured several motor vehicles parked in the vehicle park outside and the normal registration number of a motor vehicle is seven centimetres long.

CHAIRPERSON: That's very helpful because I can't see those figures myself.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, I can ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Just for completeness, there also small glasses on that table next to the white canister, which Mr Baloyi picked out.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Baloyi, I don't have many more questions for you, so if you'd just be patient, there are a few aspects I want to clarify with you.

CHAIRPERSON: And no-one has measured the size of those glasses.  Can you see them from where you are, Mr Berger?

UNKNOWN: I can see them, but I'm wearing my glasses.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, very well.

UNKNOWN: They look approximately 10cm high.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, if they're the same glasses as in front of me, these ones are 13cm.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you have a better eyesight, Mr da Silva.  You're the one who has a better eyesight than probably most of us.  Anyway - yes, thank you, Mr da Silva, we've noted that.

MR DA SILVA: You will recall that you explained yesterday in your testimony that you were standing outside your house when you were looking at these people going in the direction of the footbridge and you referred to what was a forest and they you explained that it was called a forest because the grass was so high and then you indicated fairly high grass.  Could you explain how high this grass is?  If a person had to walk in the grass, do you disappear or is there any portion of a person that sticks out when you walk in the grass?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I cannot really explain that because at the moment there is no longer any grass there.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr da Silva wants to find out from you is, are you able to give us at least an indication of how tall that grass was?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: From Bafokeng Street towards that open space you could clearly see vehicles at Frikkie Meyer, but the grass was about that high.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, ...(intervention)