Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: We realised that we had tried to report the matter to the police, the management of the firm, COSATU, ANC as well as FAWU but to no avail.  We decided not to fold our hands for Inkatha to kill us, we decided to fight back in order to defend ourselves as well as other innocent people who were being forced and coerced to join Inkatha.  That is the resolution we took as shop stewards.
	We decided to implement the steps that we had decided on.  We gathered the other workers and told them about the decision because we had a meeting later on and we told our co-workers about the situation and the fact that we had gone to seek some help.  We realised that as men we had to protect the womenfolk, protect the union as well as our organisation but that it should be a collective effort.
	We even decided that we were going to try and find some arms in order to protect ourselves but we needed money in order to be able to get firearms and ammunition.  We agreed on that point and some money was collected.  I had kept the money.  I was told to take the money ...(intervention)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Sorry, Mr Kondile, the Chairperson and the two panellists are writing down what you say so you need to go just a little more slowly so they are able to make proper notes of what you say.
	You'd got to the point where you said there was a decision to collect money, what was the money for?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: The main aim of collecting the money was for us shop stewards as well as the men who were working at the factory to go and buy some arms and ammunition so as to protect ourselves as well as the womenfolk, the organisation as well as the union so that people should not join Inkatha forcefully.  So we decided to stand up and fight for ourselves, so the money was for the purchase of arms and ammunition.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What arms were purchased?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: We bought four AK47's from Spruitview as well as 9mm, two 9mm rifles or guns with the money that we had.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say 9mm rifles, were they, do you mean rifles or do you mean handguns?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: There were four AK47's and there 9mm which are handguns, that is two of them.  All in all there were six.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Which of those weapons did you have personally?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I had an AK47.  I also got a 9mm from my friend who was a member of the Self-Defence Unit in Daveyton and he also used to give me the 9mm because I couldn't handle the AK during the day or be in possession of an AK during the day.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you have a license from the South African Police for any of those weapons?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: No, we never had licenses.  We used to hide these arms because they were not licensed.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You said a decision was taken that people should defend themselves, what did that involve?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: In protecting ourselves we decided that we should give them a taste of their own medicine.  They were hunting us down, they knew where we stayed and they knew where each and every one of use lived.  Some of our members were killed in their houses or along the way to their places, so we decided that we should also hunt them down, look for them in their houses.  If we see them along the way we should shoot to kill.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say: "they" and "them", who are you referring to?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: That is the people I can identify, I can give you the names.  Some I do not their names but I could identify them facially, so it was a two way thing.  I knew some of them facially, some I knew their names.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were they members of a political party or who were they?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: That is correct, they were staunch members of card-carrying members of Inkatha.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now your application for amnesty contains an application in respect of a person called Alfred Myante or Manyante, can you tell us what happened to him?  Can you tell us what you remember about the incident?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Alfred was a very dangerous person as far as we were concerned.  One, he was a Xhosa speaking person, he lived with us but he defected and joined Inkatha.  He became a card-carrying member of Inkatha.  He also gave Inkatha members our addresses.  He spied on us by giving information about us to Inkatha members.   We moved from the respective areas where we stayed and went to other places, running away from the very same person but we realised that he was all over the place hunting us down.  So we decided that he was a potential victim because of the activities in which he was involved as far as Inkatha and the ANC was concerned.
	We were told as to where he stayed or we got some knowledge as to where he stayed.  A certain man who knew him showed us where he stayed.  We went to Alfred's place to see and verify as to whether he stayed there and we did not get him that day but we verified that he lived there.
	We went back that very same evening and we got him at that place, we killed him and we went back to another person's place but we could not get anybody there.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You talk about: "we", who else was involved?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: It was myself, my friend, Joseph, a very close friend of mine but I've forgotten his surname.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If the Chairman would bear with me for just a moment.
	Mr Kondile, if you look at the bundle of documents in front of you at page 86 there is a letter from the Amnesty Committee headed:
"Notification in terms of Section 19(4) of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation  Act 1995."
Addressed to:
"Joseph Mabaso."
Do you know who Joseph Mabaso is?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I think it's Robert Mabaso.  I know of Robert Mabaso, this should be a mistake.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So this is not the Joseph who was involved in the incident with you?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I was with Joseph but I've forgotten his surname.  I know that his name is Joseph, then there is Robert Mabaso.  I'm just trying to recall.  Yes, that is correct, this is the Joseph I was with.  I do remember now that his surname was Mabaso.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now the death of Alfred Machi, in your amnesty application, if you look at the bundle of documents on page 4, page 4 of the bundle of documents.  Do you have it?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes, I have it.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you have a look at paragraph 9, paragraph (a) and (i) you'll see in 3 it says
"Murder of Alfred, surname unknown."
And when it asks for dates, you say:
"1992"
Can you remember the exact date when this matter occurred?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I think this happened during 1991 in the month of September but I do not remember the exact date.  I'm trying to recall the dates, it's a long time since this has happened but I think it was during the year 1991, the month was September but I'm not sure of the date.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Earlier in your evidence I referred you to page 66 and that memorandum and we referred to certain of the paragraphs in that memorandum.  Can I refer you back to the memorandum and page 69, paragraph 13 and paragraph 14.  Do you just want to take your time and read it?  Is this the incident that you've testified about?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now can you recall, you said it was yourself and Joseph who were involved in this attack, can you recall who did the actual killing?  Was it one of you or both of you?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: On this night he had an AK47 and I had a 9mm handgun, we went to his place.  Joseph is the one who used the AK47, who shot with an AK47.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What else can you recall about that evening?