Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, Sir, I think it is possible that there were people in the CP who thought we were naive, we just negotiated, we were not availing ourselves of this other option to add ...[indistinct] to our cause and that this had to be done and they went to do this on their own.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chair, there is a question that I would like to put to the witness which did not arise in evidence in chief and during cross-examination, could I put it as single question Honourable Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may put it.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Honourable Chair.
	Mr Derby-Lewis testified that it also - that one of his reason for murdering Mr Chris Hani, was to unite the Afrikaner leaders, was such a reason achievable?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, I did not do an analysis of the causes which brought together Afrikaner leaders, that is something that happened after the death of Mr Hani - during the first discussions of Afrikaner leaders which took place at the end of April.
	The Volksfront was established at the beginning of May, it could have contributed, it did not make the uniting of the Afrikaner leaders fail or not but it could have played a role.

MR PRINSLOO: I have no further questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to you Mr Bizos ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, there are one or two questions that I would like to ask in connection with the answers that were given to the Committee and to answers in re-examination.
	Doctor Hartzenberg, you were asked by the Chairman of the Committee where or not Mr Hani was advocating negotiations in peace at the time of his death,   did you ever bother to read any of the documents or any of the speeches of Mr Hani made from the end of '92 to April '93?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, all the documents which were made available to me I read, and these documents actually showed exactly the opposite.

GEORGE BIZOS: No documents were ever placed before you - before you gave evidence here, which were proved in this hearing as to what Mr Hani's role in negotiations were?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I knew that Mr Kronen submitted a document which attempted to prove the opposite but I didn't read it.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to put to you that this document of which you know about and which was produced in Parliament, that that document saying that there was going to be a secret army of 10.000 and that sort of thing, that that was a document produced in Parliament of suspect origins - I don't want to go into the merits and demerits of it, of suspect origins, do you agree with that?  Did people in Parliament - in which the ANC was not at the time, refute that document?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, we accepted it as an authoritive source of information, the other information which we had was for example, the Douglas Report, other Reports of the Freedom Foundation and newspaper reports regarding a trial in America which took - that was in the House of Parliament in front of Jeremaiha Denton and these all confirmed and this testimony was under oath.
	So the evidence that we had at our disposal which I think was at the disposal of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, was information which indicated that Mr Hani is a self-confessed murderer and that he had been linked - that he was committed to achieving Communist take-over and if it had to be through violence, he would do so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether or not the document that you were relying on was discredited at any time as a STRATCOM document?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, we didn't know that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you know that - perporting to come from the Intelligence Department, the National Party did not take it all seriously, did you know that - because they possibly knew of it's doubtful authentic origins?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, I wasn't aware.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, Mr Derby-Lewis, I found your - sorry, Doctor Hartzenberg, I found your Xmas present statement a little confusing, if Mr Walus's evidence is to be believed, the Xmas present that you were delivered was the murder of Mr Chris Hani which he hoped would lead to revolution in which hundreds if not thousands of people would die for the purposes of the right-wing taking over power - as was pointed out to you by Justice Wilson, is that the Xmas or Easter present that you wanted or is it just an unfortunate way in which you expressed yoursef?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, I tried to attempt by that means to say that I accepted the spirit, that the attitude with which the two gentlemen did what they did, it was one in which they used the point of departure that they served the cause of the Conservative Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: But what about the meaning of the present and the purpose of the present and ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, I didn't attach any further meaning to it, all that meant was that it was done in good spirit in the cause that they stood for.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, for a Party with a non-violent policy to regard murder as a present, is hardly appropriate language.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I didn't say I regarded it as a present, I said it in order to show the spirit in which it took place and that is the reason why we are standing with them, I told you from the beginning that I accepted that these gentlemen had acted for the sake of the cause of the Conservative Party.

JUDGE WILSON: And having accepted that, did it not matter what they had done?  Is that the position that you've adopted, that once you accept they did it for the cause of the Conservative Party, it does not matter what they did?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, Judge, I think I stated that the Conservative Party did not approve what had happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: Arising out of your re-examination I want to ask you one question, you took part in the negotiations in April, May, June and a portion of July, did you intend to convey - by your answers to your counsel in re-examination, that you were there for mere appearances sake or were you serious about participating in the negotiations?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: We were seriously participating in negotiations, we said from the beginning things happened - from the first day, that things had been worked out beforehand but we gave the benefit of the doubt to negotiations, we said: "Let's do our best, let's state our case to the best of our ability, we would not be prejudice and not allow things to happen" but everyday things happened that confirmed that this thing had bee pre-agreed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you regard mass action as violent action?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, Sir, if I look at how many cars were damamged, how many shop windows were broken, how many properties were damaged and even people were injured, then I think mass action is - by implication, violent action.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did it ever come to your notice that many marches and other mass action organised by the ANC and it's partners went of peacefully?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: My impression was that most did not take place peacefully.

GEORGE BIZOS: Finally I want to put to you this - perhaps with the permission of the Committee because it doesn't actually arise.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, the final question Mr Chairman.
	Doctor Hartzenberg, would you accept that had it not been for Mr Mandela's and Mr Segwale's intervention after the murder of Mr Hani, calling upon the people not to go over to violence and relying particularly on the fact that an Afrkaner women actually pointed out Walus and was responsible for his immediate arrest, helped quite considerably in order to avoid the disasterous consequences of the plan that Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus put into effect, will you accept that?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, I cannot express an authoritative opinion but it is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prinsloo?