Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

ADV PRIOR: The 14th of September 1998, and the amnesty applications of Etienne Jacobus le Roux and Others proceed.  Representation of all parties are as before.  I understand that the applicants are in a position to proceed with their further evidence.
	Sorry, are you on record?  Sorry Mr Chairman, Mr Van Zyl appears for a victim in the Jan Smuts Airport attack and is present.  May he just place himself on record?

MR VAN ZYL: As it pleases you Chairperson, Johan van Zyl on behalf of one of the victims in the Johannesburg International bombing.  The victim's name is Mr Percyville Moshwetsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I understand that Mrs Van der Walt, you are leading the first witness.  Who is he?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, this is Mr Johan Smit.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit, which language would you prefer to speak?

MR SMIT: Afrikaans.

JOHANNES COENRAAD SMIT: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr   Chairperson.  Mr Smit, were you a member of the AWB?

MR SMIT: Yes, since the middle of 1991 I joined the AWB in the Wenkommando.  Since 1992 I was a Captain in the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were also an accused in the case where the applicants appeared or made application for amnesty in front of this Committee?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that was a case that was held in Johannesburg before Judge Flemming?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were then found not guilty on all charges?

MR SMIT: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Your training as a member of the Ystergarde, what did this entail?

MR SMIT: Well, my training, after my training my instruction was to train other members of the Wenkommando in order to begin the war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you carry knowledge of an incident that occurred in 1993 at the World Trade Centre in Kempton Park?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just in short tell us why you went there and the reason why you went there?

MR SMIT: At that stage the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche did not agree with his Generals in Staff with what happened in CODESA at the World Trade Centre.
	We went there in protest and to say that we will not stand for the ANC government and we will fight for our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just explain something to me.  Did I hear you correctly, that the fact that you went to the Centre was because the leader Mr Terreblanche, did not agree with the election?

MR SMIT: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I also understand you correctly that what the members thought, did not matter?

MR SMIT: To an extent it did matter, but it was more - it had to do more with Mr Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I continue?  Can I just ask you in answer to the question of the Chairperson, the AWB as a whole, at that stage, when you went to the World Trade Centre, how did the AWB and the members feel with regard to the negotiations with the ANC?

MR SMIT: They did not agree with that at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the AWB at all take part in any negotiations up to when you went to the Trade Centre?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the World Trade Centre, what happened there?

MR SMIT: At the World Trade Centre, the march was not as peaceful as we all thought.  It was occupied and Terreblanche said that we will not agree with this type of negotiations, that we will make war.

MS VAN DER WALT: That attitude, was that discussed with the members?

MR SMIT: With what happened before the World Trade Centre, there were meetings whether public or closed, it was said that we will make war.  That attitude was not taken in at that stage, it was discussed beforehand.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank at that stage?

MR SMIT: At that stage I was a Captain in the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the Ystergarde, what section is that in the AWB?

MR SMIT: That is a specialised unit that was used in the training with the rest of the members.  It is shooters, self defence, patrols, any training and that was their task and instructions.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I understand your evidence correctly, it seems as if the training that you gave, was military training?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Up to the time when you moved up to the Trade Centre, were there a change after the happenings of that day?  Did this change take place in the AWB, did any change take place in the AWB with their feelings towards the negotiations?

MR SMIT: Can you just repeat your question please.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did a change occur in the AWB or was the Trade Centre, was that a turning point in the viewpoint of the AWB?

MR SMIT: Yes, definitely.

MS VAN DER WALT: How?

MR SMIT: In that the previous government, the NP government at that stage did not want to acknowledge or accommodate the right wing.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about accommodate, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: It was well known that all the right wing parties stood for a Volkstaat, that we wanted our own land and goals and no one wanted to give this to us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there then changes that took place in the training that you had to give after that?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.  Instructions were given that people must be sharpened in their training, that we must make more preparations for the war that will take place.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell me Mr Smit, can you remember, more or less when the incident in the World Trade Centre occurred?

MR SMIT: If I can remember correctly, it was approximately in October.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember how close it was to the elections?

MR SMIT: It was approximately one year.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I refer you to June 1993, could it have been during that time?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then provide any training after that day at the Trade Centre?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.  Approximately every weekend after that.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that period, was there any inspections held by the Generals in Staff of the AWB?

MR SMIT: That is correct yes.  From time to time the Generals in Staff as well as Terreblanche would travel through the country.  They would meet people at training camps, look at their ammunition, food supplies, etc.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about food supplies, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: It would be tinned foods, in other words non perishables.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the weapons and ammunitions, what do you refer to?

MR SMIT: It would be handguns, shotguns and at some places illegal weapons and explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also mentioned that there were training in explosives.  Can you maybe just elaborate on that?

MR SMIT: That is correct, although it was not in my area, certain people, old Defence Force members were experts in explosives, who would give people private training in these camps and they were chosen people.  That was for warfare.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell the Honourable Committee, there were evidence led with regard to the Boere Krisis Aksie.

MR SMIT: Could you just repeat please?

CHAIRPERSON: You said that these people were the chosen people?

MR SMIT: Just to come back to that point, the people who were chosen there were either chosen by the Commander or the Generals in Staff, they were well known as they said, who would not turn their backs on them.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would take you back now to the Boere Krisis Aksie, can you just tell the Honourable Committee, you now in answer to the question of the Chairperson, said that it would be drawn back to the Generals in Staff.
	How did the Generals in Staff and the ranks under them, how did this work?  Could you just explain this?