Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: I will repeat it and I will ask the Chairman to direct you to answer it.  Whilst you were discussing the manner in which you and Mr Walus were going to murder Chris Hani, did you tell Mr Walus that the record showed that the Conservative Party was against violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not tell him that, Mr Chairman, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you not tell him that if you knew the policy clearly?  Did you not want to inform Mr Walus that he was about - you were discussing the commission of an act of murder, contrary to the policy of the body of which you were a senior member?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we were clearly in a war-time climate, and that wasn't even necessary, according to my assessment, because it was quite obvious that we were in a war situation.

GEORGE BIZOS: I didn't ask you whether you thought that we were or were not in a war situation.  The question is why did you not tell Mr Walus that statements had been made by leading CP people that CP was against violence? Why did you not tell him that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because, Mr Chairman, at the time that we discussed the act of war, the policy had changed completely, and according to statements by various leaders it was clear that it was a different situation.

GEORGE BIZOS: In your application, Mr Derby-Lewis, you said that the statements that influenced you to conspire and assist in the commission of the murder of Chris Hani, it was - were the monument speech and the Kimberley resolution.  Can you point to a single public statement anywhere, after this disassociation of the Conservative Party from violence, can you show any other public statement by the CP that they had changed their policy as enunciated by Mr Du Plessis in Hansard at the time?  Can you show a single statement?  Can you show us in your application where a single statement was made saying that Mr Du Plessis was wrong?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: He may have been correct when he said that in Parliament, but the policy has changed.  Can you show a single statement?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now who were you, after the office-bearers of the CP had clearly indicated that violence was not the policy of the CP, to second-guess their public statements, that the policy may have changed?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I did not have to guess, and I refer you to a report in the Rapport newspaper, dated the 11th of October 1992, and it is a report of the speech held by the late Dr Treurnicht at Paardekraal Monument in Krugersdorp.  And Mr Chairman, the headline is very clear, and I will be submitting this bundle, Mr Chairman.  The headline is clear
"Treurnicht praat oorlog."
		(Treurnicht discusses war).
 that was the perception of the journalist who wrote the story. And Mr Chairman, what this report tells us of Dr Treurnicht's speech, the first paragraph reads as follows -
"The time is almost there that the Afrikaner volk will exclaim that they cannot do anything else than to go into war."
Sorry, Mr Chairman, the sound seems to go off and on while I am talking, I'm sorry, I have nothing to do with that.
	Mr Chairman, then this report goes further and Dr Treurnicht spoke about how the "Boerekrygers 'n klipstapel "by Paardekraal opgerig het", that would (...indistinct) on the 12th of December 1880, as a symbol that they were going to fight to the end.
	Now Mr Chairman, I can tell you that at this function held at Paardekraal Monument on the 10th of October, "ons het ook klippe gestapel".  That was a part of the ceremony.
	Further, Mr Chairman  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the date?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was the 11th of October, is the report, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: The 11th of October?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, I don't want to interrupt you, but may I draw your attention that the document on which I have referred you to in The Citizen, was after that.  The debate in Parliament was after Paardekraal.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't mind when the debate was held, but if one looks at the contents of Mr Du Plessis' speech, it is clear that he is actually repeating statements which were said in the past.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, I asked you and I will ask you again, can you refer us to a single public utterance by anyone in the leadership of the CP which contradicted what was said by Mr Du Plessis as reported in The Citizen of the 22nd of October 1992,can you or can't you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already answered that question. I said  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: You haven't answered that question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My answer was no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, I see.  So your reference to the Paardekraal statement was not in answer to that question?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, my reference to the Paardekraal report was in elucidation of the situation which prevailed at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: The caucus of the CP, and Mr Du Plessis that spoke in its name in Parliament, obviously didn't know or did not interpret the Paardekraal speech that you speak about in the manner in which you do?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was an equal member of the caucus to the status of Mr Du Plessis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you go  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that was his perception.  Sorry, can I finish, please?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, please do.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that was his perception at the time and he was in the speech clearly getting stuck into Mr Koos Botha, because of the fact that he had already been expelled from the party and that he was obviously in Mr Du Plessis' statements, creating an embarrassment for the party by continually blaming Dr Treurnicht for something that was said in 1990.  I am not blaming Dr Treurnicht, Mr Chairman, for something that was said in 1990.  The 1990 statement was the beginning, but this 1992 statement, Mr Chairman, was clearly a completely different ball-game.

GEORGE BIZOS: The different ball-game was on the 12th of October.  The caucus, your caucus member of equal rank to you on the 21st of October, said that the policy was still one of peace.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, obviously I can't speak for my colleague.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I think it would be necessary for him to be examined in this respect.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, he is not applying for amnesty, you are.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But Mr Chairman, it is clear that the statement has caused confusion, and I think that he must be called.

GEORGE BIZOS: Has it caused confusion or is it the truth?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It hasn't caused confusion in my mind, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I am clearly aware of the situation which prevailed at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were a member of that caucus.  After the 21st of October, did you attend the next caucus meeting and say how dare Du Plessis misinterpret our policy?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't even know whether I was in a position to attend the caucus meeting, the next caucus meeting, because as I explained earlier, I attended the President's Council and we sat for two weeks, and then we were away for two weeks and I am not sure of the timeframe in which this speech was said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you suggesting that you did not attend a single caucus meeting between the 21st of October 1992 and the 7th or the 10th of April 1993, when you in association with Walus, Mr Walus, killed Chris Hani, that you didn't attend a single caucus meeting?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not suggesting that, Mr Chairman, but I most certainly  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Does that mean that you did?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not certain on which occasions I attended caucus meetings.

GEORGE BIZOS: Never mind which occasion. Did you attend one or more caucus meetings after the 21st of October, yes or no?