Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

JUDGE WILSON: And the court finishes saying that Mrs Jones exercised a wise discretion which would appear to be that they thought it was counsels decision not the clients.

MR BRINK: Yes, that could be.  Other matters which I intended canvassing have really been dealt with very fully by members of the Committee, with respect, and by my colleagues so I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to put in re-examination.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, I just wish to address one aspect to Mr Maxam.  Sir, to be a member of PAYCO, is it correct that you could be a registered member of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Would you, yourself, have been aware of everybody who was an actual registered member of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Well, it was quite a biggish organisation.  President Mandela does not know the members of the ANC either.

ADV LOURENS: So, is it correct to say or is it possible then that there were people who supported PAYCO and its ideals, but who may not have actually been registered members as such?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They all fall in the category of what one understands to be the term Comrade?

ADV LOURENS: Comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, anybody involved in what is called the struggle?  Whether you belong to one organisation ...

ADV LOURENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... or the other.

ADV LOURENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  It was an aspect I just wish to clarify.  Then I have no further questions for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE LOURENS

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Maxam, what was an A-team?  In some of your documents you have referred us to a unit called the A-team.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It is just a name for a certain structure, people you worked with.  Sometimes we would work at night amongst enemies.  You would run away being chased.  Most of the time you were disguised, both you and the enemy.  To identify yourself with your co-worker you would call, you would say you are an A-team or MK.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain to me what the difference was, the political difference between PAYCO and AZAPO.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: PAYCO was an organisation that was affiliated with the African National Congress.  To my knowledge AZAPO was affiliated to the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was what is the difference politically between the two.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It is the way and the strategy used to fight the same battle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact, Mr Maxam, AZAPO was not affiliated to the PAC.  The PAC also existed as its own organisation, independent from AZAPO.  Was it not the situation in 1986, that there were three organisations predominantly and AZAPO was one of those organisations?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Well, you could say so.  AZAPO was not directly from the PAC, but they were totally against PAYCO and ANC.  That is what I was trying to say.

JUDGE WILSON: It appears in one of the statements or applications that when you arrived on this, the house you asked the gardener for some water.  One of you asked the gardener for some water.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 60.

JUDGE WILSON: And 15.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I never asked water from the gardener.

JUDGE WILSON: And that it was the gardener who directed you to the maid.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the statement made by Mr Ndinisa in his application.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I do not remember asking water to the gardener.  I saw the gardener while we were running away.

JUDGE WILSON: And an attempt was being made to tie the gardener up at that stage was it not?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I do not know, because I just saw the gardener while we were running away.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't Crosby and Ndinisa trying to tie him up?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I am not sure, because I was not there at the time.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, did he not argue with you about you wanting to shoot the gardener?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Crosby stopped me while we were trying to get inside the house, because the gardener, according to Crosby, asked not to be shot.  Not that I was in front of the gardener, because when we left the window after I drank the water the door was already broken.  I went inside.  Crosby then called me.  I do not know whether he tied the gardener or not.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you drink the water after you shot the woman who gave it to you?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I drank the water before I shot the woman.

JUDGE WILSON: Because you just said after I drank the water I went inside, they had already broken the door.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I shot this lady after this.

JUDGE WILSON: After the door had been broken?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, after the door had been broken.

JUDGE WILSON: And you ...

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We then went inside.

JUDGE WILSON: And you say it is then that Crosby Ndinisa told you that the gardener did not want to be shot?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it was at that time when we were going inside the house, that I must not shoot at the gardener.  We then went inside the house.  We left the gardener outside.

JUDGE WILSON: You just left the gardener outside?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, we left him outside.

JUDGE WILSON: So he could run away and raise the alarm?  Do you mean that, that we left the gardener outside?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, we left him outside.  He could have ran.

JUDGE WILSON: You were in charge of this operation you have told us.  You had just shot one person, the woman who worked in the house, you knew there was a gardener outside who was very nervous and did not want to be shot and you just left him there.  Is that what you are telling us?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is what I am telling you.

JUDGE WILSON: And you went and searched all through the house, as you have told us?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, we searched the house.

JUDGE WILSON: And then somebody raised an alarm and you ran out of the house and shot the gardener?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I shot at the gardener while we were running away.

JUDGE WILSON: Why?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Because we did not want him to identify us or to tell the police in which direction we ran into.

JUDGE WILSON: But you had left him outside the house, you had done nothing to him.  You just left him when he could have run away, as you have told us.  What made you change your mind and decide you had to kill the man?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: The reason was that we did not want him to identify the direction we went into.

JUDGE WILSON: You keep saying we, but Crosby Ndinisa tried to stop you killing him, did he not?  He argued with you.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We did not argue with Crosby.  While we were running away, it was after a long time that Crosby tried to stop me.  It was not at the same time when we were running.

JUDGE WILSON: Where was it that Crosby tried to stop you after a long time?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Crosby stopped me while we were going inside the house.  We then searched the house and while we were running away nobody stopped me.  It is when I shot at the gardener.

JUDGE WILSON: You see Crosby, in his application says,
"After arguing with Philemon Maxam against shooting the gardener, Mr Maxam, who had also shot the maid, shot the gardener anyway".

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: That is how he put it, but it is not what happened.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, he put, I should have read a bit earlier.  He said,
"I ran into the garden and was about to tie up the gardener, but after arguing with Philemon Maxam against shooting the gardener, Mr Maxam shot the gardener anyway".
He says it is while he was trying to tie him up.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: When we were running inside the house to search for the house we did not shoot at the gardener at that time.  I just shot at him while we were running away from the house.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED