Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Do you confirm that statement?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Do you adhere to the contents of that statement?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I was also requested by Mr Palm there 
was a letter addressed to the TRC Committee by Mrs Palm and I 
have not opened it.  Her wish was to hand it to the Chairman, may I 
do so?

CHAIRPERSON: I understand this is to the TRC Committee, not 
the Amnesty Committee?

MR PRIOR: I think in error she said the TRC Committee, I 
understand from Mr Palm ... (intervention)

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: She wanted the Chairman to read it out.

MR PRIOR: Maybe you could elaborate, could you explain?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: No, she said I must give it to the members of the 
Committee and them to have it read out publicly.

CHAIRPERSON: It is addressed to whom it may concern.  It is my 
understanding that during the struggle the main aim and objective 
was to free Mr Mandela and lead our people out of bondage to 
ensure a brighter future for all.
	On the 30th of December 1993, the struggle was supposedly 
over as Mr Mandela was free.  For my family and I, it brought 
nothing but sorrow and pain.  Bitterness and hatred eats away the 
soul, but our soul was destroyed the day APLA brutally murdered 
my daughter.
	I have nothing but contempt for these (indistinct) who now 
are enjoying the new South Africa, while others weep and mourn 
their loved ones.  These demons are now being integrated into our 
already corrupt Police Force.  What was wrong with Mr Mandela to 
allow these monsters to take over?
	Surely they will kill their colleagues who are now forced to 
work with them, these power hungry, evil (indistinct), sworn by 
Satan himself, seek only to overthrow the Government as they claim. 
 They are the Government in waiting.
	I hope the Commission keeps this in mind when granting 
amnesty to these wicket lost souls.  APLA's main goal in life is to 
seize power for themselves, they have shown the world that they 
have no regrets for their crimes and evil deeds.
	They will kill again, that I can assure you.  The word APLA 
spells fear in the people's hearts and the leaders embrace this 
knowledge, that is why they say and do as they deem fit.  As for 
amnesty, whether I oppose it or not, they will definitely be freed to 
continue their devious work by repossession or whatever they can 
lay their filthy paws on, even if it does not belong to them.
	APLA have taken from us one of the most precious gifts the 
Lord can ever give us, my daughter was everything a mother, a 
father and brothers and sisters could ever want.  And the void her 
death has left us all, an and will never be filled again.
	I will never in all the time left to me, forgive anyone that had 
a hand in her death.  I ask God every day to understand and forgive 
me for feeling all this hatred and contempt that I have for her 
murderers.  My daughter was the type of person that would have 
wanted me to forgive these killers, as she believed in our Creator.
	I would just like to thank the Commission for taking the time 
to read my letter and I will also like to ask the Commission if they 
could read this letter to the amnesty applicants because I would like 
them to know exactly how we feel.  Thanking you in anticipation, 
Mrs M.E. Palm.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Palm, is there anything 
that you wish to add to your submissions?  Is there any further 
evidence you would like to give, or any statement you would like to 
make?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: I think I have covered most of what I want to say.  But 
as everybody is talking about reparations, I would like to ask the 
Commission for reparations.  I am not looking for any monetary 
assistance, I would like, I appeal to the amnesty board to please 
look into my son's case and try and take these obstacles that is 
holding us back, to get at that truth first.

MR PRIOR: Is that all?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: No questions, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you seen a plan of the Tavern?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: I know if off by heart Your Honour.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you indicate on that plan where you were 
seated?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: The arrow shows at point "b", but I was sitting more 
against the wall, just below the raised platform.  It is the very first 
table below that.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that the restaurant section?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: That was the dining area, yes, which is directly 
virtually opposite the opening where the shooting came in.

JUDGE WILSON: But you didn't see anybody?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: No, as I explained to the Investigating Officers, there 
is a column and whoever did the shooting, was behind that column 
so I didn't see a figure.  All, when I realised that the shooting was 
going on, it was just the sound, splinters, things breaking and the 
smoke rising and that is the time I tried to get my daughter out of 
the way and pulled her down to the floor.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Palm, thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Sorry Mr 
Chairman, just one question.  Mr Palm, you said on page 35 of your 
statement that Mr Prior read, the second paragraph, while you were 
sitting and talking, I glanced up over her shoulder to where the 
sound was coming from, I noticed sparks, smoke, glasses breaking 
and I realised this was because someone was shooting into the 
Tavern.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, where you were sitting at - you referred to 
the end of that line there that shows "b".

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Yes, it was the first table below the raised platform.  
The very first table, I had my back towards the wall facing the 
opening and her back was towards that opening.

UNKNOWN: Now, when you say the  shooting was into the 
Tavern, was that shooting coming through the windows, through the 
door?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Well, I can't say I note the shooting through the 
windows, but that shooting sort of seemed to be directed down the 
passage way into the bar, because as I said it narrows there by the 
step, the stairway and there is a bar area beyond that, it was sort of 
directed into that direction which gave me the edge to get out of the 
way in time.

UNKNOWN: You seem from the marking that I have made and 
I could be wrong, you seem to be sitting closer to the double doors 
than to the stairway?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: That is correct, the stairway is actually beyond the 
point.  I wouldn't be able to see the stairway from where I was 
sitting, because there is also another column just in front and there 
is a telephone on that corner.

UNKNOWN: So how far, can you remember how far you were 
sitting from the double doors?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Which double door are you talking about, the one on 
the road side or are you talking about the entrance?

UNKNOWN: Yes, from the road side, maybe the best thing is 
if you look at where "g" and "f" is.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Yes, I was sitting quite close to that.  Well, it was 
quite near.

UNKNOWN: When you say near, can you maybe just indicate 
or can you say two metres, three metres, four metres, five metres?

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: I would estimate about four metres.

UNKNOWN: Four metres?   Thank you Mr Palm.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

UNKNOWN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Palm, thank you.  You are excused from 
further attendance Mr Palm.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Thank you, Your Honour.
WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr Brode.  His name 
appears on item 7 on the submissions by victims.

BENJAMIN BRODE: (sworn states)

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr 
Brode, you have also prepared submissions in this matter and you 
have handed them to me, is that correct?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Would you like me to read that out for you to confirm 
or would you like to read it out yourself?