Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

MR MBANDAZAYO: My question is, at what stage did you become aware of the target.  You have explained to the Committee that as a soldier you were aware that there is an operation which  was going to take place.  Now my question is, tell the Committee at what stage did you become aware of the target?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is like this, we got to know about the operation when we taking the guns.  We were not told about the target, because according to the nature of the operation - as there were cars that were going up and down, he with was the one who would tell us about the ambush.  He was the one that was going to shoot first and the car that he would be shot at that be the one that would be identified as the target.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I explain to the Committee, you talk about the arms, you became aware when you were taking the arms.  Can you explain to the Committee this process, at what stage did you have to go and take arms, was before you took the vehicle, the bakkie, or after that?  Can you explain to the Committee?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: When we were taking this gentleman's transport, as we came using this bakkie, we were approaching the road to Zastron - to Sterkspruit, but still in the Transkei area.  It's where we met with this bakkie, the one that took us back to the place were we took the vehicle.  That's where we got this ammunition from this bakkie taking them to another bakkie.  It's where the briefing took place.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) that you got?  What was said to you during that briefing?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: As this Comrade was also the Commander of the unit and the Director of the operation that same time.  We were on our way to perform an operation, that was going to be an ambush, that's the type of operation.  As he would be the Commander of unit, he would be the one who would spring the attack.  Automatically when he starts shooting we would follow

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the last phrase.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That's where we would take our guns as I have explained earlier on.

MR PRIOR: So he would - just to clarify this - he would know which vehicle to shoot at, and on his opening fire you would follow suite?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: Thanks.  That's much clearer, thank you very much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman?  Mr Chairman paragraph 12 he has already covered is the first line, I will start with the second,
"When Letlapa shot we shot this car. It was a white Toyota Corolla 16V.  There were four occupants in the car.  This car stopped.  Three of the occupants climbed out of the car and ran away.  One did not survive.  When came close to this target so we find this person.  Van was pointing a firearm to him.  Letlapa came and said we must shoot him and I shot him - Mr Chairman - I shot him with an R5 rifle in his chest.  After that Letlapa shot him in the head with .38 pistol.  After finishing we petrol-bombed the car with all it's contents, then we left the scene."
Now, you are saying in this affidavit there were four occupants of the car and they ran away.  You also said in the affidavit one did not survive.  Can you explain that to the Committee, what do you mean by that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What I mean is this.  Our aim was to kill everybody in that car except the African who was there, but unfortunately the way they were doing these things they could - it shows they were trained people, more especially the two of them, the whites.  That's the people I had my focus on, but they were so fortunate that they escaped.  We didn't have a problem with the African, the third one was there, we got him there.  There was no chance for him to survive, because that would be a clear betrayal.  If we would let him live whereas we went there for a operation.  That will mean taking our  struggle two steps backwards.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when you arrived at this person who was there, was he injured or was he still nothing happened to him, he was okay?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I assumed that he was injured. He had some bullets, some bullets striked him, because he was outside the car, he was out of the car.  He was sitting down outside the car, out of the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you for the benefit ...(inaudible) or was he laying down?  Can you just explain to the Committee?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: As the car was facing the Sterkspruit direction, this African was just across the road just between the transport and the fence, he was in a sitting position, he was sitting on his buttocks facing the car,  because as we were approaching him he was looking at us, he was facing us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, can you tell the Committee what was holding him there to sitting there, was there somebody there, with him, or not?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I'm not sure whether he was injured or not, but there was another African who was there, then Comrade Ben, the one who was pointing a gun at him, because when we saw him sitting down there he was with Ben pointing him with a gun.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible) did not shoot him?  He was just pointing him with a firearm?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We could see his problem.  Firstly he was not yet militarily trained, he was not yet used to the firearms and maybe as he was still fiddling with the gun, with the weapon.  He didn't even know how to use it, maybe the cassette from the firearm fell.  He was not in a position to shoot him at the time.

MR PRIOR: The interpretation was cassette, do they actually mean magazine?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes sir, I'm referring to the magazine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, the last paragraph of 12,.
"After finishing we petrol-bombed the car with all it's contents, then we left the scene".
Can you tell the Committee what was the reason for you petrol-bombing the car?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Let me put it this way - can the speaker please repeat the first part of the answer?  As there was a plenary session at Umtata for members of the High Command, we were told that we should make sure that our operations are different from those of criminals.  That is why we decided to burn the car - it was not part and parcel of the plan that we should take their cars, but we were after there lives as they knew the nature of our battle from long ago, from the time of our ancestors.  They knew that the enemy was powerful.  That is why we were forced to take over in the battle, because our great grandparents were defeated.  It is because their firearms were so powerful and there's were outdated.  Irrespective of how armed are you, there is nothing that you cannot take away from the nation, it's the power to go on.  The fire to go on in your battle, you can take the firearms, but you can not take the fire, the burning spirit from the person to go on, the fire.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you still haven't told us why you burned the car.  It's is not clear to me at any rate.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I think I've explained that.  I said, it was necessary that our operation should be different from the pure criminal operations.

MR PRIOR: But you could have left the car there and not taken it.  Why was it necessary to burn it, that's what I'm trying to understand?  You didn't have to steal it, but that  would have shown that you weren't stealing anything.  Why did you have to burn it, that's what I'm trying to understand?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: You mean you don't get my reason?

MR PRIOR: I wouldn't be asking you if I did?  So I really don't understand.  You didn't have to steal the car, you didn't have to steal anything, you wouldn't have been seen as criminals, that's what you said.  You wanted to distinguish between yourselves and criminals?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So, where does the fire come into it - why did you have to burn the car?