Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

H J P BOTHA: No, given the information which had been received at that stage and it also came from a single informer and bearing in mind the previous experience which we had in Natal, you would not take such an immediate decision by immediately launching a more complete investigation.

MR WILLS: Because it strikes me as too coincidental that the only action that is taken against these senior personnel is after the arrest of Ndaba.  Why wasn't it taken before?

H J P BOTHA: Because I've already told you yesterday, I testified yesterday, that given the incident in 1985, the Ebrahim Ismail incident, where a high profile person infiltrated the country and was monitored over a period of time and here we once again had information relating to high profile people in the country.  It would not have been the right thing to immediately go over to...(intervention)

MR WILLS: We're not talking about an immediate arrest, we're talking of a period of 6 weeks.

H J P BOTHA: Which is actually a very short period of time.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that this is the truth of the matter and I put it to you that you are deliberately misleading this Committee.  I put it to you that Ndaba was not an informer, that you beat him so badly on the night of his arrest, that he cracked and under that extreme pressure, he gave the information to you and it was only then that you had the information at your disposal to make the following arrests.

H J P BOTHA: That is not correct.  Maybe Mr Maharaj could perhaps just inform the attorney more fully as to the background and when they became aware of the fact that we knew of their printing press in Reservoir Hills and the press in Chatsworth where they tried to eliminate members of the Security Branch who were conducting observation there.

MR WILLS: Did you sent any persons around to the homes of the deceased's family, his wife May Rose Shabalala?  On the 13th at her home in uMzumbe, on the 20th  at her home in Gamalahe?

H J P BOTHA: No, I didn't send anybody.  It was perhaps part of the investigating team.

MR WILLS: Do you know how it is possible that all the money which wasn't a substantial amount for someone in your position, all the money from Ndaba's bank account was withdrawn on the morning of the 8th?

H J P BOTHA: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I think that ends my cross-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have information as to who did the withdrawing?

MR WILLS: No, my instructions are simply from the family that the wife May Rose Shabalala went, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: She discovered that the money had been withdrawn.

MR WILLS: Yes, she went to withdraw money soon after the event and there was nothing left.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wills, I think I may have my notes wrong here, but I've got that you put it to the witness that all the money from Ndaba's banking account, was it Shabalala?

MR WILLS: I'm sorry, that was a mistake, I'm talking about Shabalala's account.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just while you're on that, if I could Chair?  Did you search Shabalala when he was arrested?

H J P BOTHA: I didn't do so personally, but I believe it would have been done.

MR LAX: Was any money recovered off him?

H J P BOTHA: Not as far as I am aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to put to this witness?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Poswa.

MS POSWA: I'd like to remind you that yesterday I stopped half-way through my cross-examination.  Will I be permitted after Ms Thabethe?

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you are working as a team.  You had limitations as far as the language was concerned, so we allowed Mr Wills to carry on on your behalf.  But if there are any specific questions which you wish to put without repeating the ground that has been covered, I will allow you.

MS POSWA: Mr Chair, I believe yesterday I said I had a problem with the language, I have not completed my cross-examination, I need time to go through the script again and that on that agreement, on that understanding, Mr Wills will continue with his portion.  I will try not to go over what he has gone over.

CHAIRPERSON: I was to understand that he was going to do it on your behalf.

MS POSWA: No, no, Mr Chair, I think that was ...(indistinct - intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's not waste too much time.  If you have questions to put to this witness, please do so.

MS POSWA: Thank you

MS POSWA: Mr Botha, I'd like to now refer to the manner in which the families of members of banned organisations were treated and I would like to just summarise the fact that it is a well-known fact that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just put your questions.  Put your question.

MS POSWA: Okay.  Was it not routine, or usual, in your operations that you would go to family homes of people who were involved in the banned organisation?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the two people, Ndaba and Shabalala?

MS POSWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, mention that.

MS POSWA: For example the home of Mr Shabalala, of Mr Ndaba as well?

H J P BOTHA: If I understand the question correctly, then it's a general reference to what the routine procedure would have been for us and they refer to banned organisations of which these two people were members. I or my team did not beforehand or after the elimination on the 15th, 14th/15th, we did not visit the homes of the deceased and make any inquiries, but it's possible that the investigating team did visit those homes because, as I've already said, they did a complete investigation as was expected of them.

MS POSWA: I would just like you to confirm the fact that it was routine that, it was in the process of your daily duties as members of the Security Branch, you went to the family homes of people in banned organisations and in particular Mr Ndaba's home and that you did so since he left the country.  If you know anything about it?

H J P BOTHA: Perhaps I can explain as follows.  I think I know what the question is heading for.  When a person left the country and we received information that he was being trained abroad. (1) A docket was opened for illegally leaving the country.  A statement was then taken from the family to say that he was not at home, wasn't at home from a certain date.  A photograph was usually obtained and that was placed in a terrorist photograph album for circulation throughout the country.  All personal information was then obtained from the family and then information was constantly updated relating to this person's activities.
	When returned terrorists or arrested terrorists, or askaris gave information about such people, that was the also documented as to where that person might be.  When intelligence was received that a person was for instance in the vicinity of Durban or wherever, then as part of a routine investigation, the family would be visited to find out whether there'd been any contact.  If the information was more positive, the telephones of these homes would probably also be monitored to obtain more information.  If the information was to the effect that there was communication by post or by letter, then there would be a postal interception.  What I'm trying to say is that all possible intelligence gathering methods would have been used to monitor such a person's activities.

MS POSWA: Are you aware of, so that is it correct if I say that the same procedure would have been applied to Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MS POSWA: Do you know of any particular incidents when Ndaba's home was visited?

H J P BOTHA: No, I can't recall that.