Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Bizos it may be so, once again it may be so, but unfortunately I cannot shed light on that.  If you have asked me if possibly shouldn't they have been killed but my opinion doesn't mean anything because it wasn't my project.  I did not make the recommendation.  If you ask me it in 14 different ways wouldn't it have been better and with each one I say yes, it's got no influence on me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you ask Van Zyl, but why don't we kill these bombers?  What is this business of giving them a warning?  Terrorists don't require warnings.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Even if I did ask the question it would not have been in his capacity to deviate from the plan so what would the purpose have been, so that is why I cannot think I would have thought such a question or waste my time in asking such a question, because that would have been a waste.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I am going to suggest to you that the project having failed, fortunately for these young people who were not doing any of the things that you suggest, you, Van Zyl and Hardien decided to lessen your intention in order to avoid the consequences and that neither you, nor Van Zyl nor Hardien are telling the truth as to what the purpose of this bomb was.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Bizos I can tell you what was told to me if Mr van Zyl had said these are the reasons, I will accept it.  I was not informed from the higher ranks what the reasons were I will go on the grounds of what Mr van Zyl said because I cannot stand in for what he said.  Mr van Zyl said this must happen and I act accordingly.  I drive with them, I activate the limpet mine and I assist him in the detonation thereof.  I concede that your summation could be correct, it would not be my place because I cannot say it.  That is why Mr van Zyl sat here so that you can ask him that question.  I cannot stand in for what was said to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you discuss the purpose of this bomb with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir I could possibly have said that I detonated the bomb.  I cannot think that I would have discussed the purpose with him in detail.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's take it step-by-step.  You can't deny that you had a discussion with Mr Barnard about the explosion of this bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I can say such a discussion took place, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you remember what his evidence was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I can recall, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll confirm it for you.  That he told you that Van Zyl had told him that the purpose was to kill these young people.  Now, and that in fairness to you you said no, that is not what Van Zyl told me.  Has Mr Barnard got that conversation correctly?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It's possibly correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well you can't deny that that is what precisely passed between you and Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If he conveyed it in such a way I would have reacted like such because if it had happened like that Mr van Zyl did not put it to me and he was not informed.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are unable to deny that those were the terms of the discussion that you had with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot say ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, that's enough.  Now why would Mr van Zyl tell Mr Barnard a different purpose to what he told you as to the purpose of the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because this organisation was made up of a lot of egos and the one's ego wants to be bigger than the other one's ego so this is my logical summation that he wanted to impress Mr Barnard by saying such a thing.  Once again I am speculating, I cannot say.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Why don't you speculate that he may have been telling the truth to Mr Barnard but that he possibly mislead you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: But I just conceded that if it happened like that I cannot say it - I can say it possibly happened.  I do not think - I cannot see how it can assist you.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Botha just on your response on your opinion as to why it was said, don't you think that Barnard would have been more impressed if Mr van Zyl told him that the purpose wasn't to kill, we set off a bomb and we didn't kill, in other words we achieved the object of the operation?  Rather than make up a story about trying to kill people and failing.  What's that got to do with ego when you are talking about a failure rather than a success?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I differ from you Mr Chairperson.  It is about the loss of life, how Mr van Zyl would have liked to have boasted about it.  It would have given him larger credibility against a person like Mr Barnard.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see Van Zyl regularly after your discussion with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I would think so, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever ask him what is this nonsense that you told Barnard about our intention being to kill people, did you ever ask him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do not think he wanted Ferdi to admit to me that he discussed the project with him, so I think Ferdi and Slang had their own relationship and Ferdi and I had our own relationship without Slang knowing what the relationship was.

GEORGE BIZOS: If Mr Barnard had told the truth to you, had told the truth to you and if Van Zyl was speaking the truth you were the exploited expert who was not told the real purpose of the bomb, surely that must have been a matter of great concern that would have influenced your relationship with Mr van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir once again I had to rely on what Ferdi Barnard told me.  I cannot interpret it as the truth.  I was at the scene, I know what Mr van Zyl told me and I acted accordingly.  If he lied to me or not I cannot say, or I cannot stand in for him.  I can tell you what he told me and more than that I cannot say.

GEORGE BIZOS: What I would - the last question for this afternoon, if you can, why didn't you do the natural thing with your co-worker in the CCB, "why do you tell Ferdi Barnard that the intention was to kill and why did you tell me that the intention was merely to frighten, why did you play the fool with me, or why are you playing the fool with me?"

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not discuss it Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've told us that, why not?  Have you any explanation why you did not do it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Possibly because he said it in the confidence of the situation that he did not know what our relationship was at that stage and I did not know what their relationship was like.  That's how I did not know about Advocate Omar or that Ferdi Barnard was involved in the baboon incident.  And that I stated categorically ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you any other explanation because if you haven't I think that I would ask the Chairman's permission to allow me to stop at this stage, have you any other explanation to explain this inconsistent and improbable conduct on your part?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's my final answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will adjourn till tomorrow.  We mentioned last week the possibility of starting at nine, is that possible, tomorrow?  Yes.  We will adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, same venue.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS