Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I find your patronising attitude a bit irritating actually ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I would just like to add Mr Chairperson the personal attack on me I think you are being protected here by the Act to tell me that I am callous, that I am cold, I don't think my wife would like that.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well I am glad you mention your wife EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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actually because I think that's important that we understand that humanbeings, people like yourself who have wives and children are normal people, they conduct their normal lives but they can also be callous, insensitive and demonstrate the kind of attitude that you demonstrate.  The reason I ask that question is I've always, I've often had this idea in my mind that some of our problems were related to the very issue of racism in this country and the very idea of an apartheid government which by the way was political, and which means that even your role as a policeman was just not merely a policeman's role but was a political role, because apartheid was a political thing, and the whole attitude around apartheid was political, therefore your operation and your thinking about people, especially Black people in those times, especially a person who came from Soweto, the heart of most of political activism would have those attitudes, and this is why I am asking you that question.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I can assure you Ma'am that I am no racist.  I have been working with Black, Indian, Coloured policemen since day one, and especially in Soweto, I can assure that there was really a brotherhood and nobody could ever say that there is any sign of any racism in the police in Soweto.

MR POTGIETER: I thank you.  I know that there are some more questions that members of the panel want to ask.  I don't want to be unfair on the panel but I also don't want to be unfair on the witness or unfair on the other people who must still come and testify, whose cases we must hear.  So I want to make the point that I think we have covered in fact most of the ground that was raised by the witness.  What I am going to rule is that whatever questions there are EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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still must please be pointed, and can I ask no comments and just ask the question and perhaps we'll get the witness' cooperation to respond specifically and pointedly to a question that elicits information or clarifies the points which have not yet been clarified.  I think we have debated enough I just want to make that point.  Dr Ramashala are you happy with that arrangement?  Under those strict, strict circumstances I will allow you then another question.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Absolutely Chairperson, and thank you very much.  I will make one comment and then a concluding question.  General I think that you are a brilliant political strategist.  Your idea of establishing Vlakplaas and the use of people who returned to South Africa ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Used their knowledge, not used them.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Pedantic.  Is absolutely brilliant.  Having said what you have said in the past hour unless you are planning to leave South Africa, which I don't think you are, you have to live in this South Africa that perhaps is surviving all kinds of dirty tricks, but you and I have to live in South Africa, one of our critical mandates is to determine how you and I will live in this South Africa in the form of reconciliation.  General having said what you said do we have a chance at reconciliation?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: First of all you called me a political strategist.  I want to tell the Commission that I have never voted in my life, never, ever, because I don't believe in politicians.   Secondly I think we do have a chance, we do have a chance but it must come from everybody, not only from one side of the community.  It must come from everybody.  I can assure that if I were young enough today I would have
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served under the present government.  I am a professional policeman.  I would have served under this very government.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: General we have heard talks about forgiveness and reconciliation, but predominantly from the Black people in South Africa, and since you are so hopeful that we could accomplish reconciliation could you give me one or two strategies that you believe will take us from here to there?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Don't you think it will have to be political strategies and that I am not interested in, although you called me one.  It will have to be political strategies.  But I think the people in this country, we have come together whether we say this race was a minority and that one in majority, we've come a long way and I don't think we can do without one another in this country.  I can assure that I am not one, and that's not politics, to feel that I should leave, not at all.  I am quite happy here.  I am born and bred, my forebears came from Holland over 300 years ago and they won't know me if I go back there, so I am quite happy here.  I will stay here and I will die here.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  I am going to close the testimony, but perhaps just finally General you've listened to some of the questions, you've listened to some of the comments, you've had some time to reflect, perhaps just as a final question, do you think that perhaps you should reconsider your testimony that you don't have any compassion with any victim, with any of the next of kin in this terrible, terrible tragedy?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I never said Sir, with all due respect to you, that I don't have compassion.

MR POTGIETER: Then we misunderstood you.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I said they must choose their leaders more
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carefully, but I never uttered the words that I have no compassion, I just said I have no comment.

MR POTGIETER: Well then ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: You see Sir what I do feel that a lot of innocent people, or a number of innocent people died that day because of the leadership.  A lot of innocent people who didn't know what it was all about.

MR POTGIETER: Now who is it that you don't have compassion with?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I still said I never said I have no compassion, but I say I have no comment.  That is my own personal feelings.

MR POTGIETER: Well then I will repeat, then I will repeat the question because you might leave a wrong impression on the mind of the panel here.  Do you have compassion with the victims or their next of kin in this massacre?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I said Sir just now that I do feel sorry for the innocent people who died that day.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much General.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Thank you Sir.  Sir if I may ask the panel or you as Chairperson, I have a long way to go back but I will only be going back tomorrow if I may be excused from the further proceedings here?

MR POTGIETER: Certainly.  I thank you for coming and testifying and bringing your perspective to bear on this incident and there would be no need for you to attend any further.  So if you so wish you could be excused from further attendance.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.