Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that when I returned and they were scattered all over, I don't really see them or I don't have contact with them every day.
	Sometimes I would get to know incidents after they had been carried out.

UNKNOWN: But the incident to which Mr Mpshe has referred, is the incident in which you were personally involved?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.  In this incident I relied heavily on the Caprivians already in the area, there were quite a few.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Luthuli, on the killing of innocent people at the bus stops and the shibeens, can you safely say that there was some recklessness by your structure and therefore the murders, the killings of those people, cannot be linked to a political objective since they were innocent people as you have indicated yourself, will I be correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Sir, it is difficult to comment on that because the nature of this violence resulted in a lot of bad things that were not in line with political policy, but organisations did this activities not only by the local leadership, even the higher leadership encouraged this practices by way of communicating like for instance this area because it has comrades, we should kill everybody in this area so that they all flee the area.
	Such things happened and they were ordered from the top.  You wouldn't know whether there was maybe one or two IFP members in the area, but because some people had been identified as belonging to another organisation, that area would be targeted.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I think Mr Luthuli, yourself and I are in agreement on those matters, and I want to believe again that yourself and I will agree that some of these acts as I have already indicated to you, at the bus stops and shibeens and the illustration that you have just given, were purely criminal or revenge?  Will I be correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would also agree with you in that instance because I wouldn't really know the motive of the reason for attacking people in a shibeen,  except from what I hear from the people.  But I do agree with you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the person by the name of Chief Hlabunzima Mapumulu?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How did you know him?  Did you know him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My next question is how did you know him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I know him when he was still a member of the KwaZulu legislature, if I am not mistaken.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We all know that he is dead now?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we don't, I don't know that.  I am learning that now.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I withdraw that one.  He is dead now, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the circumstances surrounding his death, do you have any idea about it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I know, although I was not personally involved, or partaking in that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, I am not implying that you are involved nor the Caprivians were involved, just tell us what you know surrounding his death, perhaps it may come out from your answer.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that there is a certain Caprivian that works in the BSI at Mpumalanga, who informed me that they had gone to hunt down Chief Mapumulu in Pietermaritzburg.
	It appears that as he was returning from wherever he had gone to, they had lay an ambush for him.  When his car went passed, I don't remember whether he was going to the garage or to his house, but they shot him at that time.
	That is what I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he shot and killed by one of the Caprivians?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The Caprivian who was with ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I just want to have what is BSI?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It is one wing that is like the Special Branch in the KwaZulu Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I am informed it stands for Bureau of State Intelligence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Bureau of State Investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Investigation, thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the name of this Caprivian?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it possible for you to disclose the name?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Sorry?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it possible for you to disclose the name?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Please do so.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He is Pumlani Masengo.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally, did you know the late Reggie Radebe?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He is also dead, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the circumstances that led to his death?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.  Even though I was not present, but one Caprivian who is in the BSI who is present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you mind giving us the name of the Caprivian?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He is Bongani Sithole.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it possible for you Mr Luthuli, I am not saying that you are involved in it, is it possible for you to disclose to us the circumstances that led to Reggie Radebe's death if you do know?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: According to what I heard, it appears as if there was going to be a meeting at Nqobo where they expected a delegation, the ANC delegation to attend to speak to certain IFP members to sort out the violence situation at Richmond and Nqobo.
	There was then a meeting at the residence of a certain Chief, even though I cannot remember the Chief's name, that is where it was decided that Reggie must be killed.
	And because the BSI members did not know him, certain members of the IFP who were also present, would go to him, shake his hand and the son of the Chief Mkhize in that very same area, he is the one who was standing with these two men, who identified the man whose hand was being shaken.
	They then left.  They excused themselves from the meeting so that they could not be identified.  On leaving the meeting, they drove passed his car along the way and laid an ambush on the road along the way.
	The one person who was in charge of G3, which G3 shot him, was Bongani Sithole, the Caprivian.  That G3 was or belonged to Vezi who was the Chairman of the IFP at Pateni, and I only learnt about this when there was a rally here in Durban.  I think there was a march from Karisfontein to the City Hall, and two men came in the company of Bongani Sithole and he said to me, Commissar I am in trouble.
	Vezi doesn't want to hand over the gun that killed Reggie Radebe and I said, what should I do now because I don't have contact with him.  The person who has contact is Vezi.  And they said people who knew about this matter was Phillip Powell and Ndombela.  Speak to these two men, maybe they can go and take the gun because the Police had already learnt about the whole situation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Mr Luthuli, yesterday you testified, you were led by your counsel, that there are some other incidents where you are involved, on which you did not testify.
	I am going to mention them to you, I want you at the end to indicate to us whether you are applying for amnesty on these incidents or not, because they are in your affidavit.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Okay.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will just mention them out to you.  It is incident number 45, that deals with the Glover remark, incident 47 ...

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps after each one, you should get an indication rather than do the whole lot and then start again.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  As mentioned before ...