Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't know, I can't recall any evidence about knowing the movements of people.

MR LALLA: Okay, what effectively you are saying is that by observing and having surveillance of all these places, you knew the general movements of these individuals?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Some of the people, yes.

MR LALLA: Why I'm putting this question to you is a follow up to Mr Gordhan's question.  Does that mean that you followed Mr Gordhan?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I did not say that.

MR LALLA: Okay.  Were you aware that within the day, that since I came into the country and to the time I was arrested, that I had a meeting with Mr Gordhan and it's not reflected in any of your reports?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is irrelevant to me, I don't know.

MR LALLA: Now why I'm posing these questions to you is that there seems to be selective coincidences and tying of issues and tying of incidences and tying of reports and a massive picture of some degree of control.  What I'm trying to establish is that if Mr Ndaba was an informer at that time and if Mr Ndaba told you all about the house at the Knoll, surely you would have had surveillance of the Knoll and if you had had surveillance of the Knoll, surely at some stage or the other you would have known that Mr Gordhan and I met.  Mr Gordhan, I was never questioned about any meetings of Mr Gordhan during the time of my interrogation which was quite alarming.  What I'm reflecting is that I am saying that most of your information you got from the computers and some information in the process which could not have been achieved from the computer was basically the personal interaction and that's why I'm throwing some doubt on the issue of Mr Ndaba.  If he knew, he would know the houses, there would be surveillance on the houses ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could just put a question to Mr Botha so he can answer?

MR LAX: Sorry, if I could just clarify as well, the evidence has been that the Knoll was under observation during that time.

MR LALLA: So was anybody followed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, that is what led to the arrest of Nyanda.

MR LALLA: But you are saying, you are saying that the house was observed, you are saying the people were followed but you are saying that you didn't know how I got arrested, how I was there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps I could facilitate this for Mr Lalla.  The Knoll was under observation, the house in Brickfield was under observation, many other houses were under observation, we were a core group of people who had knowledge,  one of the activities of Vula and those people involved, there was not a big team of observation which could observe these places for 24 hours at a stretch.  We ourselves undertook the observation and if there had been a meeting between Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla at the Knoll or at any other place, it is possible and I concede because we did not observe the place for 24 hours.

MR LAX: Just one question, if I may Chair?  Who carried out the observation of these various places?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I was involved in The Knoll, Lieutenant du Preez was involved, Wasserman was involved, Brickfield Road was Warrant Officer van der Westhuizen because he lived closed by, it was easier for him to get there, we took turns to observe the place.

MR LAX: Those were the only people that kept observation there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Those were the only people.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions?

MR LALLA: Only one last question.  In relation to the night of the interrogation, what was unusual about the night and that's why I'm a bit doubtful whether this was not well thought of by yourself and when I'm saying yourself I'm excluding the other members.  It was rather unusual for us, we were normally interrogated in another room on the ground floor with burglar bars.  On that specific night or that specific afternoon we were taken to the first floor and it was the only afternoon that we were taken to the first floor.  I think we were taken to the first floor round about ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You were taken.

MR LALLA: Oh, I, I think it was the only afternoon where I was taken to that first floor around about 4.30 or 5 that afternoon?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I don't know where the previous interrogation had taken place or in which office.  I worked with them in those two offices and that was on the first floor.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LALLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising?  Re-examination Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, the issue of houses under observation and following people comes up.
	Was I followed around for those few days?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Mr Gordhan, you weren't.

MR GORDHAN: Because just for your information all the information that I had about Vula was at another place which you actually never discovered.  What did Mr Ndaba tell you about the houses at which these meetings took place that he attended, where were they?  The meetings?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was in Durban.

MR GORDHAN: Which area?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall precisely.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, thank you Mr Botha.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, you've now got to make a decision whether you want to testify.  You've indicated earlier that you had not but I haven't explained the implications of testifying or not testifying.  At the moment we have evidence under oath from the applicants.  We know that certain aspects of that evidence has been put into issue by yourselves and we know that from the nature and content of the questions that you have asked them.  However, if the way to contradict evidence is to actually give evidence as well because if at the end of the day we only have the evidence of the applicants and no other evidence controverting that, that doesn't necessarily mean that the evidence of the applicants has to be accepted because we examine the evidence, we analyse it, we deal with it in connection with the probabilities, whether there's self-contradictions, contradictions amongst that evidence, so it's not automatic that it will be accepted but if it stands uncontroverted by any other evidence, it's more difficult to reject, it's got to be inherently weak in order to have it rejected.  So I'd like you to think carefully before you make a decision as to whether or not you're going to give evidence bearing that in mind.  If there's anything further you wish to know please ask and I'm sure between the three of us we will be able to answer your questions.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, just for your information, I have given this fairly careful consideration.  It's a point I'm going to repeat when you give me an opportunity to sum up.  I'm not an individual here, I was part of an organisation, I was part of a huge operation in the country.  The leader of that operation was the former Minister of Transport, Mr Mac Maharaj who has already given evidence before the Committee but I don't think you were in the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: No I wasn't, I've been actually brought into these hearings because of the unfortunate illness of my colleague and Chairman, Judge Mall.