Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

MR SONO: Yes, we had many associations with her, because all the guys that came from the MK, when they got to my place, the first question they will ask me, is that do you know if she is available, we need some help, we need some clothing, because you know, by that time when these guys came in, they needed to get some -  you know the latest clothing that was worn in the country, because you know, if you come outside with those khakis, you could be easily identified that you are not staying here. Then they used to go to her or I used to take them there sometimes, and she will buy them some clothing and all that. I have known Winnie for many years as a person who is very good and she was like a mother to everybody. If you have some grievances you could share them with her, by then.

CHAIRPERSON: Before I ask the other Commissions to ask you a few questions, can you just say something briefly about the way you said you pleaded with her when on the 13th of November 1988, at about 20 minutes past 10, you said you pleaded with her.  Can we just get clarity about when you saw your son in the car you said you pleaded with her.  Can you just slowly give us the picture of the dialogue that took place between the two of you at that time.

MR SONO: Yes, I pleaded with her because what she told me, she said the other boys in the Kombi have told her that Lolo is a spy.  He has caused the death of the two commanders of MK and the - I mean, the damage that has occurred at that house, but it is not the two commanders that died that day. Even a policeman lost his life there.  Now they labelled Lolo and Sibonisa spies because they apparently went to Mrs
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
15 N SONO
Mandela with, you know, the slips that the police always come and leave at your house and say please come to the police station, because they are supposed to have gone to the police and they ran away from the police. They went to Mrs Mandela to seek help, please help us, the police are looking for us. So in my mind is that they thought maybe Winnie will make a way out for them to skip the country, because it was already prearranged with the dead commander, which is my cousin, that he is going to leave with them, he is going to go away with them. That's what I can explain to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are any of those boys who were in the Kombi known to you at all?

MR SONO: None of them is known to me. I don't know - I only know the driver, Michael, he stays somewhere in Dube.  That is the one that I know. These others, even that tall hefty one with an athletic body, I don't know him. I don't even know his name. Even if I went to Winnie's place, the boys were always in their separate place. I will go in there, talk to Winnie and go away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I will now ask other Commissioners to ask you a few questions, just to get clarity. As I have said that it might be difficult for you, given the pain that you are undergoing, but it is important for us to get a clearer picture. Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In the third paragraph of your statement, you say among other things, that Winnie said to you, was that the movement, meaning the ANC, will see what to do with Lolo.

MR SONO: That is correct, that is what exactly she said to me, and by then when she said that, she wasn't the Winnie
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
16 N SONO
that I know, she was very aggressive, she was completely changed in her face. You could see anger in her face.  Then I thought when she said that to me, I thought she is just being taken away, maybe to be punished or - and to be left.  But what I was pleading to her is that he was already punished, and it would be much appropriate if she could leave him with me.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you after the unbanning of the organisation, ever go to the ANC movement and say this is what you are reported to have said or instructed with regard to my son?

MR SONO: Yes, I did go there. Unfortunately by then she was the head of the welfare department where I was referred.  When the movement was unbanned, they were housed in No 54 Sauer Street, it is where I went.  My statement was taken by two young chaps. They were also the Madiba clans, they called each other Madiba. They took my statement, they demanded a photo of my son, which I gave and the other chappie said to me he will be going to Lusaka very soon, and he is going to try and publish all over the camps that people should look for Lolo, and they never replied to me.  So when the police were hot on me, I went back to Winnie.  She sent me to some lawyers in Grey Street, which I gave them my story.  They referred me back to the ANC, where I saw Matthew Phosa, that time, which I spoke to him.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see here or I have heard you say that the police alleged or accused you to have been working for the ANC.

MR SONO: Yes, that was true because the Varies boys that was arrested from my place, he is the one that told the police that most of the boys of Meadowlands and other
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
17 N SONO
surrounding areas, that knew me, they will come to me for help.  Even if they knew that they have gone people coming from Zambia, they will say don't worry, at night we will go to Nico and he will try to help you as much as you can.  Then he gave them all the information, because it is true, that when they arrived at my place with my cousin, it was someone around the 18th of July and it was in the evening.  They used the contact who was bringing people to me, and they used all the signs that we had, how to communicate. That's why I could accommodate them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But the treatment you have been receiving from the police, at the police station, seemed not to be point to the fact that you were working for the ANC, because it appears they themselves were unable to investigate that which you allege ANC did to you.

MR SONO: When they came to my place and called me to Protea, they did not have - because I said to them they must prove, they must give me a proof of what they are saying to me.  And for that matter the very same police that I am complaining of, that he said he is the investigating officer of this case, at a later stage he is the one that has arrested one of the witnesses that is supposed to have appeared in court and taken him to Winnie instead of to the police station.  Capt Dempsey, he is the one that arrested (indistinct) Kulo and taken him to Winnie instead of to the police station. He is involved in letting (indistinct) Kulo out of the country.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In short, you are in a state where you have no confidence in the police, with regards to the case of your son.

MR SONO: That is correct. If I reported my son missing on
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
18 N SONO
the 14th it was Monday morning, when he has left on Sunday evening.  What blocked the police to go and search Winnie or go with me to Winnie's place and say here is Winnie, she has taken my son. What blocked them to do that? In a true sense I won't have confidence in them because they did not help me from the first time I went to them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Here Winnie is alleged to have accused your son to be working with the police.  Were you ever accused similarly by Winnie?

MR SONO: No. No, she did not accuse me.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Not.  But at the same time you have never had a good reception from her with regard to the whereabouts of your son?

MR SONO: After it all happened, I went to her more than four times.  The last time I went to her, I went three times in one day, it was a weekend before the 11th February 1990.  I went to her three times, in the morning, during the day and in the afternoon. In the morning I was refused entrance, during the day there was a girl there who said to me she was preparing Winnie for the Press.  That afternoon when I went there, there were full of other people which she said she doesn't want to see me.