Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MR RICHARD: What do you understand the ANC's policy to have been at that time during 1985, regarding how it would cause South Africa to be changed?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The ANC had called for patriots and supporters of the organisation to form units and to attack targets, meaning collaborators and policemen who supported the oppressors and oppressed us in this country.

MR RICHARD: And what else would those units do?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I just explained to you now.  They called units, they asked us to attack targets, which are collaborators, policemen and supporters of that government at that time.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, are you referring to the policy in respect of the armed struggle only, or in general?

MR RICHARD: My next line of questions or sequence of questions would be along the lines, was there in his knowledge, separating the two, whether he was aware of any.

JUDGE PILLAY: No, I need to clear it up in my own mind, I'm not asking you about why you're asking questions.  I'm just wanting to find out what you're referring to, because your initial question was very broad.

MR RICHARD: The applicant said he attended meetings at least twice a week at the Allan Taylor residence, at which things were discussed.  Amongst this that were discussed was how the ANC would go about changing South Africa.  I then asked what did he understand and his answer is that they would form cells and would attack policemen, collaborators.  My next question is, is that all that units would do?  Now by asking that question my question leaves it open for the witness to say they would recruit new members to create more cells, or they would propagate ANC propaganda, or they would - you know, I think it's a permissible question.

JUDGE PILLAY: I'm not saying it's not permissible, Mr Richard, you must understand me.  I'm trying to figure out what you're actually asking.  Proceed if you're going on a bit.

MR RICHARD: Apart for attacking policemen, collaborators, were there any other things that an ANC cell at this stage, like the Fairvale Unit, would do?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Also intelligence gathering.  We were required to do such things.

MR RICHARD: Did you do intelligence gathering?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I did a little of it.

MR RICHARD: Can you remember what intelligence gathering you did do?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Not clearly, no.

MR RICHARD: What would you do with the information you obtained, the intelligence you obtained?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Can we get something clear here, are you talking about Fairvale Unit before I was recruited into MK?

MR RICHARD: With respect, Sir, it is for you to answer my questions, not me to be questioned by you.  My question was very simple, it requires a direct answer and I submit you've being evasive.
SIMULTANEOUS TALKING BY MR RICHARD AND APPLICANT

MR DEHAL: Sorry, may I come in at this stage.  The last question was not correct.  I mean I think the clarity that the applicant seeks is fair, he wants to know whether it was before Special Ops or after.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if intelligence was gathered, either as a member of the Fairvale Unit or as a member of the Special Operations Unit, what would you do with the material gathered, with the information gathered?

MR RICHARD: And to be more specific I'm now going to confine it to at the time you were a part of the Fairvale organisation, what would you do with the information you gathered?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That information we gathered, when we met together, those of use who took part in the Fairvale arson attack, we shared it amongst ourselves.

MR RICHARD: Now I've already asked this question.  Can you remember any specific item of information, apart from things relating to the Fairvale School, that you did gather and discuss amongst your unit?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I don't.

MR RICHARD: Was the information that you gathered ever discussed at the Allan Taylor residence?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: About Fairvale, no.

MR RICHARD: Now when were you recruited into Special Operations?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: About a month before the Klein incident.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I've just answered you, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Your answer means that I have to work out and put it to you, a month before the 1st of May is about the 1st of April.  It would be easy for you to answer the 1st of April 1986.  Now I put it to you, were you recruited into Special Operations around the 1st of April 1986?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember the date, that is why I said "about a month before the Klein incident".

MR RICHARD: Now before you were recruited into the Special Operations Unit, were you ever taught what would be an acceptable target or an unacceptable target?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I was not taught anything like that before.

MR RICHARD: So, prior to approximately the 1st of April 1986, you had no knowledge at all of whether a particular target would be legitimate or not.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: Now am I correct in understanding that it was not on the 4th of May 1986, but more like the 1st of May 1986, that the attack happened on the Klein household?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: Now we know that whatever training you received regarding target selection, happened after the beginning of April.  What training did you receive as to target selection during that month?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was trained in the use of handgrenades and AK47s.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, what training did you receive regarding the selection of targets, after your recruitment to the Special Ops Unit?  Prior to the Klein incident.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was instructed to look for targets, people who were collaborators and supporters of the apartheid regime and policemen.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Yes, you were instructed to identify such people, but my question is more specific.  What training, if any, did you receive as to what criteria would constitute a legitimate or acceptable target as to what would not?

JUDGE PILLAY: Let's put it this way.  Why did you choose the Klein household?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Judge, Mr Klein was a Labour Party member at the time, also a reserve policeman.

JUDGE PILLAY: Ja.  Now did you choose him as a result of your own personal vendetta against him or how did you know that he would be an acceptable target?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: From the intelligence gathering that we had done.

JUDGE PILLAY: Ja well, what about the intelligence gathering?  That he was a member of the Labour Party?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: He was a member of the Labour Party, he was a reserve policeman.

JUDGE PILLAY: But how did you know that members of the Labour Party should be attacked?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: This was the policy of the ANC.

JUDGE PILLAY: Who told you that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It's what I read in the Setchabas and also listened to the voice of the ANC.

JUDGE PILLAY: I see.  Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: I return to my question.  I put it to you that no-one gave you any training whatsoever prior to the attack on the Klein household, as to what would be an acceptable target or not an acceptable target.  Am I correct in my proposition?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: You're wrong.

MR RICHARD: Then my question is, what training did you get as to what criteria you would use to ascertain what is a legitimate as opposed to inappropriate target?  What training did you receive?  It's a simple question.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think Judge Pillay put the question in a simpler form and I answered it.

MR RICHARD: No, you have not answered my question, you appear to be reluctant to do so.  What training did you receive?  I know that you were told to select people who were Labour Party members, but that is not an answer to the question.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, what type of training would you have in mind?