Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR WILLIAMS: Now, is this parking area located in the vicinity of the area that we left when we left the hall, according to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that parking area adjacent to the door or to the exit or ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Is the parking area located on the premises itself?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I almost get the impression that it might be in a different premises, it might be part of the same premises.

MR WILLIAMS: I don't understand, I don't understand what you are saying?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot tell you now, I saw the premises in the evening, once in my life.  It is a quick observation that was done, and I cannot tell you if it was a parking area next to the building or close, next to the premises, but it was clear that it was a parking area used by people who visited the Early Learning Centre.
	You know the area, you know what parking area I am talking about.

MR WILLIAMS: So, your testimony is that you assume or it is patently obvious that whoever used the Early Learning Centre, would use that parking area, is that your evidence?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, if you are saying that you are not sure whether that parking area could be adjacent to the Early Learning Centre or belong to another premise, are you saying that there could be another building or something where this parking is based, parking area is based?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That parking area, is according to me, there for the use of the people who visited the Early Learning Centre.  Who the parking area belonged to, I do not know, but it was not a parking area that belonged to an adjacent building, not according to my knowledge and the impressions that I gained.

MR WILLIAMS: Now I put it to you that, sorry, can you describe the parking area?  Are there tarred areas, are there parking bays, are there, can you recall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If I remember correctly, it was a tarred area, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you that there is no parking area in front of the Early Learning Centre that is used by people using the Early Learning Centre building, there is no such parking area?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is definitely a parking area, that is where the vehicles had been parked that specific evening.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you further that there is a parking area at the back of the Early Learning Centre, but if a person observed that parking area, you are not in a position to observe who enters and exits the building on the front side of the ELC?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you are talking front, Mr Williams, are you talking where the road goes, if somebody was on the road?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Commissioner, I recall distinctly at the last occasion, we were going to be given a diagram, I think Mr Bizos said it could be arranged, if I am not mistaken.  I am just enquiring whether such diagram was prepared?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would be helpful, either that or else if we could see the place.  I don't know if it is going to become an issue.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr Chairperson, it will be available tomorrow, the diagram.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I was actually going to request that we actually go and see the place, because I want to argue at the end of the day that it is highly impossible ...

CHAIRPERSON: If it is going to be important to see the place, then I think we ought to, because so often one forms an impression in one's mind of what you think it looks like, and you get there, and it is completely different.
	Maybe we can make an arrangement to go and take a look at it?

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, if we can get the diagram first, then maybe we can decide from there?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I would strongly motivate that we actually go there, because the witness is, or the applicant is making mention of a parking area which may be adjacent to the, so that one can have a complete picture, what it actually looks like and whether one can create, or come under the mistaken impression that the parking bay is intended for a particular building, or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we think that it will be worthwhile to see it.  We know that there is more than one parking place, I think it has been mentioned in the past, now we are talking about the back and the front, we know that there is more to the  centre than just the hall concerned, I think it would be worthwhile to see it, and then, but we should make an arrangement to go and see it.

GEORGE BIZOS: It would be advisable of course, Mr Chairman, to do it whilst this witness is still in the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I would have thought so.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, I still would like to get the diagram first that was promised to us on the last occasion, and I have no problem, my client need not accompany us, I will accompany the Commission, but I would like the diagram because I think that was an undertaking we were given, when this debate was argued last time, it was promised to us to make it available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I don't think that there is any reason why we should be in possession of a diagram before we go.  Whether we get the diagram afterwards, Ms Coleridge has just told us that we would get it tomorrow.  I don't know what the situation is regarding the barricading of roads, whether it is possible even to go out this  afternoon?
	When I say barricading, the buses have been protesting and blocking the road, I don't know if there is access there.

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, the reason why I asked for the diagram, because if the Commission wants to have an inspection, I have no difficulty going, I would like to have the diagram with me when I go.  That is why I would like the diagram.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, if this is an indication that the witness doesn't intend coming to the inspection in loco, it is not going to be very helpful, not having the main actor there, to point out where he was, what he saw and how he saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean if we go now, we can take Athlone by surprise?

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I believe that there is a possibility that the roads might be barricaded today as well, later today.  I have just been informed by Mike Benade, our witness protection person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it wouldn't be advisable to try to go this afternoon, if it is going to be barricaded.

MS COLERIDGE: Possibly tomorrow?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   We might have to do it tomorrow, depending on what the situation is there.  But I don't think that will mean that you needn't continue with your questioning now, and we loose time now, Mr Williams.  We can always ...
	We can continue and then we will go and have an inspection in loco.  When we adjourn today, we will make an arrangement.  Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I just want to ask a few questions with regard to where he was parked, before we go there.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask any questions you like, but we will have an inspection in loco.  I think when we do, we must make an arrangement, but I don't want to make an arrangement that we meet there, because if there is a barricade of the roads, it might put the (indistinct) on the whole of tomorrow's hearings, maybe we should meet here and then go.  I know it is a bit inconvenient, but then at least we won't get half the people stranded here and half the people stranded on the other side.
	Anyway, we can make that arrangement, when we adjourn, we can have a discussion with the legal representatives and work out a way to get there.  Mr Williams, do you want to ask questions?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I have just asked Ms Coleridge, whether it is possible to ascertain whether in fact the roads are barricaded now, because it might make more sense, if the roads are not barricaded, that we go out there immediately, because otherwise we might just be caught in the traffic tomorrow morning.