Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

J A MKHWANAZI: I was aware, that is why I am saying I was also trying to encourage them to participate in the piece talks.

MR HATTINGH: In paragraph 15 it is stated that
"In consequence certain people formed a Special Committee and more importantly to put into practice the orders received from the ANC command"
What orders were received at that stage from the ANC command, or do you not agree with the contents of this paragraph?

J A MKHWANAZI: I did state that when I came back into the country in 1989, I received a loud and clear instruction that if there was violence where I was I would have to act to try and stabilise the situation.  That is one reason that led to the formation of the committee, so that I wouldn't have to take decisions single-handedly.  We then formed the committee so that we could share ideas before taking a decision.

MR HATTINGH: The reasons for the assassination of Jwi Zwane, were they discussed by your Special Committee?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, members of the committee realised how much people were dying, like shooting the coffin at a funeral.
	Two or three people were killed at the funeral I think and it was then decided.  There were many other cases as well.  There were cases that led to the committee taking such a decision.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Mr Zwane?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I didn't know him.

MR HATTINGH: You never met him before he got killed?

J A MKHWANAZI: I didn't know him.

MR HATTINGH: Can you give an indication as to when this decision was made by your Special Committee to have Jwi Zwane assassinated?

J A MKHWANAZI: I do not remember quite well, but I think it must be a week or three weeks before he was actually assassinated.

MR HATTINGH: Could you then explain, he was assassinated only in July 1991, now if one had regard to the Brief Historical Background Statement which we're dealing with now, it would appear that this decision was in fact made in the previous year?

J A MKHWANAZI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR HATTINGH: Zwane was assassinated in July 1991.  From a reading of this Background Statement on page 12, paragraph 13 it is stated that in October 1990 something happened and thereafter further events and then we get to the assassination of Zwane in 1991, July 1991.

J A MKHWANAZI: I have already stated that the Special Committee got together, looked at the violence and tried to identify the people behind it and it was specifically discovered that Jwi was playing a very prominent role.  There was a funeral at some stage and Jwi came and shot the coffin and the corpse inside and shooting people as well.
	Some people were found lying dead without their private parts and a decision was decided or should I say the decision was taken after the violence exasibated.

MR HATTINGH: When one has regard to the Annexures A and A1, it would appear that as from July 1991 there was relative calm in the area because not many further incidents were noted in the following 8 months.  Can you explain the reasons then why Chris Ngwenya was to be assassinated?

J A MKHWANAZI: After Jwi was assassinated the violence exasibated because we experience revenge attacks after which things remained the same.  The violence never subsided.  I think Mr Mndebele did indicate that there is no accuracy in the list of dates.  The situation never got better, instead it became worse.

MR HATTINGH: What information was at your disposal, at your Special Committee when the decision was made in February 1992 that Chris Ngwenya was to be assassinated?

J A MKHWANAZI: There was violence and Chris was behind the violence.  There was an instance where people were shot, having come from school or people who were coming from school.  That was one of the cases and it was therefore necessary that such a decision be taken because people were suffering.
	The people who were behind this were the Black Cats.  Nobody else was behind the violence except that Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: What happened to this Special Committee, was it disbanded at some stage?

J A MKHWANAZI: I do not remember which year it was.  I decided to go back where I stayed because I had already been granted amnesty to come back home and start a new life.  That is when the Special Committee came to an end.

MR HATTINGH: Exactly which year was that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I do not remember quite well but I think it was around '93.

MR HATTINGH: In your evidence earlier today you said that you're not aware of any action taken by Gushu or the SDU's which fell outside the command or your instructions, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to Advice Gwala, what were the reasons that Gushu told you afterwards were the reasons for his assassination of Advice Gwala?  The family of Advice Gwala would like to know that.

J A MKHWANAZI: Gushu told me that Advice Gwala was connected to the Sasol Management.  He was an organiser for AWUSA which AWUSA was killing MDM members at the mine and he was organising a counter-revolutionary youth against the structures at Mbalendle and that he had a hand with the Black Chains, the Black Chains who used to terrorise people at Mbalendle.

MR HATTINGH: When the SDU's were put into place, did you supply them with any firearms or any weapons?

J A MKHWANAZI: I gave Gushu the responsibility to take care of that.

MR HATTINGH: The question is, did you supply any firearms?

J A MKHWANAZI: No.

MR HATTINGH: When did you meet Mr Chris Hani in ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hattingh, can I just get clarification here?
	Did you supply Mr Gushu personally with any firearms, Mr Mkhwanazi?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I did give him the one that he used for Jwi and Chris's assassination.

ADV BOSMAN: How many in total then?  I just want to make sure I understand you.

J A MKHWANAZI: I gave him an AK47 and a Makaroff pistol.

MR HATTINGH: When you met with Mr Chris Hani in the Transkei, I did not quite hear your answer previously, approximately when did you meet him in the Transkei?

J A MKHWANAZI: I do not remember but I think it was 1990 or 1991 even though I'm not sure.

MR HATTINGH: Did you report to Mr Chris Hani about the occurrence of armed robberies with a view of supplying the SDU's with finances and arms?

J A MKHWANAZI: I explained to him about the prevailing situation at Ermelo, Piet Retief and Secunda.  I further indicated to him that I have instructed someone to form the SDU's so that this very same person must see how the SDU's operated.

MR HATTINGH: Will you please answer the question?

J A MKHWANAZI: I thought I have answered the question because I have stated that I informed and explained to Mr Chris Hani about the prevailing situation in the different townships and indicated to him that I have already instructed someone to form SDU's and that I informed this person to make use of his own discretion and initiative as to the formation and the arming of the SDU's.

MR HATTINGH: Did you discuss or report to Mr Chris Hani about the armed robberies that had taken place to finance or to arm the SDU's?  It's just a yes or a no.

J A MKHWANAZI: I think I have already explained to you that I informed him that I have mandated this person as to the formation of the SDU's and the arming thereof.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mkhwanazi, are you not prepared to answer the question?

CHAIRPERSON: What's wrong with the answer?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I did not hear an answer to the question whether he reported to Mr Chris Hani about the armed robberies.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your answer please.

J A MKHWANAZI: I am saying I did inform him about the prevailing situation in the different townships and I also informed him that I have already instructed a person to form the SDU's and make use of his own discretion as to the arming of the SDU's.