Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

JUNE CRICHTON: Let us go back to my first question.  What do you think was the reason for them moving you around so much?  Did they move just you or were they moving everybody who were part of this organisation around like that?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Everybody was transferred from one place to another, we were 56 in total and we were all shifted from one place to another.

JUNE CRICHTON: Why do you think did they do that?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I don't know, but I still want to know why they were doing that to us.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr  Chairperson.  Mr Ramncwana, I would ask you three questions with the intention of trying to find out that when people who were arrested in the 1960's, how were they treated?  There are very few people who appear in front of this Commission, complaining about what happened to them in the 1960's.
 Firstly, at the time you appeared in court, did you have any legal representative?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No.

MR SANDI: Do you have anything to say concerning the court case, the procedures of the court case, how the Magistrate and the Prosecutor handled your case as you were not legally represented?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: We were sentenced for three years because there was no one representing us.  And they said that because we were called at POQO people, we will be sentenced for three years, but it is clear that we were not guilty, but as we were allegedly belonging to POQO, we will be sentenced for three years.

MR SANDI: I am not sure, Mr Ramncwana, whether my question is clear to you.  I request you to tell us clearly what was happening in court?  Were you satisfied with the procedures of the court?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, we were not satisfied sir, but because the Magistrate said I sentence you for three years, but you are not guilty, we were not satisfied about that, because we didn't know why we were found guilty.

MR SANDI: How long did this case last?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: We came from Cradock with Magistrate Koen to Port Elizabeth.

MR SANDI: On the day when your case was in court, did it take the whole day or two days, or three days?  I am not talking about when you go to court and then the case is being postponed, but I am asking you for how long did this case take place?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: It was only one day and then they told us to
come the next day to be sentenced.

MR SANDI: You said that this case took only one day?  How many were you?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: We were 56 in total.

MR SANDI: You were 56 in total?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, we were 56.

MR SANDI: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Velile, the 56 people you have mentioned, were they from the same place or from different places?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: They were all from Steynsburg.  They were all coming from Steynsburg.

BONGANI FINCA: And all these people were accused of being POQO members?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I apologize Mr Ramncwana for coming back to you.  At the time when you were in court, was it during the day or at night?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: It was during the day.

MR SANDI: Were you all given a chance to respond to this case?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, we were responding to this case.

MR SANDI: Do you mean all of you, the 56 of you had a chance to answer for yourselves?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, we did.

MR SANDI: I am sure that you all said that you were innocent?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, we said that we were innocent.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Ramncwana.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Velile Ramncwana, we thank you.  Thank you for reminding us about the 1960's and for reminding us about the activities of POQO, although you are denying that you were a member of POQO.
 I know that our people suffered a lot.  As a result now they cannot differentiate or they cannot know where to deny or to accept responsibility, but all of us, those who know the history of this country, we remember the activities of POQO in this country - to keep the light when the times were dark in this country.
 Many people were arrested at that time as you were telling us your story.  Thank you for reminding us about that time.  Many people who are active today, they started being active during the 1990's when things were getting better.
 They started to be involved.  We thank you for reminding us that there are people who were active in those dark days when things were very bad.  When there was no hope for life and we salute these people as heroes of our country, because it is easy to be active when things are better, it is very hard to be active when days are dark and things are very difficult, when we are only dreaming of liberation.
 We thank you for reminding us about that time.  There are questions that we will make a follow up about in your story, together with the 56 people, if they are still alive.  For now, we thank you and we promise that we will follow your story, thank you.