Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, I would appreciate a similar performance.

MR PATEL: So would I Mr Chairman.  I beg leave to call the next applicant, who is the Mr Paulos Pistol Nkonyane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, what language would you prefer to speak?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I am going to testify in Zulu.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: (sworn states)

MR PATEL: Mr Nkonyane, where were you born?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: In Ermelo.

MR PATEL: Have you lived for your entire life in the Ermelo area?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, at the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was not working.

MR PATEL: And what is your occupation at present?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: At the Department of Environmental Affairs.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you a member of any organisation, political organisation?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: ANC.

MR PATEL: Were you an ordinary member or did you hold any office in the ANC?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was just a supporter, an ordinary member.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule, which appears on page 22 of Volume 1, you are claiming amnesty for the, firstly for the murder of Chris Ngwenya?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Secondly you are claiming amnesty for the murder of Lindiwe Nkosi?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Thirdly you are claiming amnesty for the attempted murder of Thembisile Nkambule?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And finally you are claiming amnesty for illegal possession of a firearm and ammunition?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: These offences for which you claim amnesty, do they all relate to one incident or different incidents?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: These took place all at the same time.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Now in perpetrating these offences, what was your motivation?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was following orders.

MR PATEL: Who was it that gave you the order?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Jabu Mkhwanazi, my Commander.

MR PATEL: Mr Chris Ngwenya or any of the other victims, Lindiwe Nkosi, Thembisile Nkambule, did you know them personally?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I knew Chris Ngwenya personally, but I did not know the rest.

MR PATEL: According to your knowledge, who was he?  Did he belong to any organisation?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, he was involved in politics.

MR PATEL: Which organisation did he belong to?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He was a member of the Black Cats which was directly linked to the IFP, they were working hand in hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, did Mr Mkhwanazi give you the order personally or through somebody else?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He gave me the orders personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you with anybody when you committed these crimes?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: With whom?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Mzwandile Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of that Unit, your Unit?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: My Commander was Jabu Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you went out, was Mr Mkhwanazi with you?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of the Unit when it went into operation?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I am not a member of the SDU, I am a soldier, an MK soldier and what I would like the Committee to know is that when I refer to my Commander, I am not saying that when I carried out the orders I should take the Commander with.  It would be myself and whoever is accompanying me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, you must understand I am not trying to plot you down.  All I am asking is who was in charge of the Unit, who performed these actions in which Chris Ngwenya was killed and these other offences committed?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is what I am trying to explain, that I was following orders.  When we go to those places with Mzwandile Gushu, I would not say Mzwandile Gushu was my controller because we were both the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have to make decisions in case something went wrong between the two of you?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: There is something that I don't understand.  What decision are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: If you had to abort the operation, who would make that decision between you and Gushu?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: According to my knowledge, if the order had been issued, it had been issued and we would carry out the orders.  Whatever else would come after the order had been carried out.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here Mr Nkonyane, if you two had to run up against the Police during that operation, a good soldier would run away and review the whole situation and maybe plot for another attempt.  Who would take the decision to run away?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: It has never happened.  When an order has been issued, it has been issued and we go straight and carry out the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  What exactly was the order that was given to you?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: What I know for sure was that I should work in order to achieve peace within the greater Ermelo area.

MR PATEL: In respect of these offences that you are claiming amnesty for, what was the order that was given to you by Mr Mkhwanazi?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I will try to explain that to the Commission.  I don't know whether the Committee will understand it.
	I was supposed to kill Chris, that was the order to kill Chris.

MR PATEL: In executing this order, you were also instrumental in the death of Lindiwe Nkosi and the wounding of Thembisile Nkambule.  Were they shot intentionally?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: It was not our intention.

MR PATEL: Could you describe very shortly to the Committee how this, how you executed the order?  You were together with Mr Gushu and you were to assassinate Mr Chris Ngwenya.  How did you go about it?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: We went to Chris' place, we did not find him.  We decided to go to the shops and we placed ourselves strategically.  Gushu was at a certain corner and I was waiting at the passage.
	We were now on the lookout that when Gushu appears, when he appeared Gushu would start shooting, and when he shoots, he would just shoot at the enemy and then I would follow him and finish off the job, and that is how it happened.

MR PATEL: You were positioned on the corner and Mr Gushu was positioned in the passage.  What then happened, did you see Mr Ngwenya?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, Mr Gushu saw Chris and started shooting and I positioned myself and started shooting as well.

MR PATEL: Mr Chris Ngwenya, was he on his own or was he accompanied by anybody?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He was together with other people.

MR PATEL: How many other people?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: There were two females.

MR PATEL: Can you describe to the Committee what their respective positions were?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: When they appeared, Chris was in the middle and on each side was one female.  Chris had both his hands over each one of them, or each one's shoulder, that is each female's shoulder.

MR PATEL: Yes, and who shot first?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Mzwandile Gushu did.

MR PATEL: And then you followed and started shooting as well, is that correct?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, Mr Ngwenya, after being shot at, did he fall immediately?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: No, he did not fall immediately.

MR PATEL: What did he do after he was shot at?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: He tried to run away, maybe he ran a distance of about five metres just before he fell to the ground.

MR PATEL: And the ladies that were accompanying him, did they run as well?