Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: We are going to call upon Nosisi Dorah Bill.  We welcome you Mrs Nosisi Dorah Bill.  I am going to ask Reverend Xundu to administer the oath, he will also ask a few questions on behalf of the Commission.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NOSISI DORAH BILL: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: What is your clan name?  What is your clan name, Ma'am?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: I am from the Mhlane clan.

REV XUNDU: Can you please tell us briefly about the incident that took place in your house that led to the death of this young man, Mzwandile Bill who was working for the electrical company and who was on his way from work.  Can you just tell us briefly so that we can get the full picture.

NOSISI DORAH BILL: I was on my way from work.  I found Mzwandile taking a bath.  I went into the bedroom.  I heard him calling a child.
 I heard him talking to this child, but I did not know what they were talking about.  After some time, I left the bedroom, I went to the sitting room.
 Mzwandile went out of the house, he went straight behind the house.  I could hear the voices outside.  When I looked outside, I could see that he was with his girlfriend.
 I heard this girlfriend saying, I am going to ask him,
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I am going to ask him.  This girl left and I went out of the house.  
 Mzwandile came into the house.  I didn't ask him about what was happening because I couldn't see people fighting but I could just hear that this girl was saying, I am going to ask him, I am going to ask him.
 When I went back to the house and I looked outside, I could see this girl coming with two Kits Constables with guns and they were also carrying walkie talkies.  
 When they were in front of the house, there is an electric pole in front of my house, one of the Kits Constables said just go back - he said to this girl.    This girl went back and then the police came to my house.
 They went passed me in front of the house, they went into the house.  Mzwandile was standing inside the house, half naked.  They asked who was Mzwandile?  Mzwandile said I am Mzwandile.  They said come.  Mzwandile responded by asking them where should I go?
 They assaulted him.  They put him out of the house and he was still asking them what was wrong.  I started crying while they were at the door and there were a lot of people in front of the door, they were also crying.
 They pulled him until he fell.  I could hear a noise of the gun and this other Kits Constable was shooting him.  While I was still crying, the blood was all over the place.  One old man said, this boy is dead.   I said to the police, you are not coming in here and that's the end.  You just stand there, don't come in here.
 The police van took him.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Ma'am.  In your statement you said Mzwandile was in one of the clubs?
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NOSISI DORAH BILL: He was a soccer player.

REV XUNDU: Was Mzwandile a soccer player?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: ; Yes.

REV XUNDU: You said he came with Nolingo.

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Nolingo was the one who was his girlfriend, it is Nolingo, it was Mzwandile's girlfriend.

REV XUNDU: When you asked Nolingo after this, what did she say when you asked her, what did she say?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: ; I didn't ask her.  When she was talking to this other child, she said Mzwandile said she is working with the Kits  Constables and Mzwandile said she must stop working with Kits Constables.

REV XUNDU: Does that mean that Mzwandile said that one of the girls was in love with one of the Kits Constables?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: No, I think it is because her friend was in love with one of the Kits Constables.

REV XUNDU: So does that mean that a person can become an informer easily when you are in love with the Kits Constables?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes, that is correct.  They usually fall in love with the Kits Constables.

REV XUNDU: Did you see Nolingo after that?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: No, I didn't even wish to see her.

REV XUNDU: Who is Slams?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Slams is one of the Kits Constables.

REV XUNDU: What are there proper names?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: I don't know his friends, I only know him as Slams.   I don't even know where did he come from.  Those were the people who were harassing us, I only know him as Slams.  The people used to call him so.

REV XUNDU: Was he in police uniform?
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NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes, he was in police uniform.

REV XUNDU: Do you mean the green uniform?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: They were wearing those Kits Constable uniforms.

REV XUNDU: Was there any case after that, any charges laid after the incident?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: ; Yes, there was a case.  The police came to call us just before the funeral.  They said they are coming to fetch me because I am supposed to be there when they were performing the post-mortem.

REV XUNDU: Was the post-mortem performed?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes.  The bullet was removed.  On the second day, I am not sure, I can't remember, the comrade took me to Middelburg.
 I don't know what happened thereafter, because I was alone, I didn't have anybody, I didn't have a husband to help me going to all these places.
 I ended up in Middelburg and then when I came back after the funeral, I went back to the office and they were always saying the case would be held.
 When I went there the police asked me where was my legal representative.  I said I don't know.  They said I must bring a legal representative from the ANC organisation.
 Each time I went there, they used to tell me that he was not there.  For about a year I have been going to that office, the following year I have been going to SANLAM.  I used to get different policemen who would give me different information.  At some stage, when I decided I wouldn't go to SANLAM any more, I saw this policeman who was a Coloured, who tore a paper, writing that Mzwandile died on this date and then he said, he wrote something saying "saak afgehandel" and he said to me, stop coming here, the case is CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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closed.  (tape ends)

REV XUNDU: ... a legal representative?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes, I didn't have one.

REV XUNDU: At Mzwandile's funeral, was there any role that was played by the political organisations?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Do you mean they arranged everything for the funeral?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes.  And even the soccer players, the club that he was playing for.

REV XUNDU: This policeman, Crous, who was a  Coloured who said the case was closed, do you know him?  Is he still around?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: No, I don't even know him.  I saw him that day, because everyday I used to get different policeman and I was in pain, I couldn't always think about it.
 One of the Coloured people who were there, asked him his name and he said he was Crous.  He was the one who told me that the case was closed.

REV XUNDU: You don't even know this other Coloured policeman?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: No, I don't know him.

REV XUNDU: You mean the case was closed?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes, they were actually dismissing me.

REV XUNDU: Did Mzwandile and Nolingo have a child?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: Yes, they do have a child.

REV XUNDU: Where is the child?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: The child is in Nolingo's home.

REV XUNDU: She didn't bring the child to you?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: No.

REV XUNDU: Do you mean Nolingo didn't explain anything?
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NOSISI DORAH BILL: No, I don't even think she will ever explain anything.  I don't even know where she is now.  She is not here in Cradock.

REV XUNDU: What is it that you would like to tell the Commission as your wish?