Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, all I know I heard about, it was a report I got from my subordinates that the investigation that they conducted was that Dean Farisani, two people came looking for him, looking for Dean Farisani, and that these people went to  Mahamba's house and then Posiwa took them to Dean Farisani,  or they were looking for Dean Farisani, something like that.
	So I can't recall very clearly, but as I said these had something to do with the people who were looking, who came looking for the Dean and people, and other people who were conveyed by the others in the list.

MS MTANGA: To correct you Mr Ramushwana, the visitors were said to have been looking for Mr Mahamba and were taken by Mr Posiwa to Mr Mahamba's house.  But were not looking for Dean Farisani.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, it could be like that.  I am not saying it was exactly like that, like I said it's long, this thing happened 18 years ago.  I can't recall everything in detail as it ...

MS MTANGA: Was there basis for arresting Mr Farisani?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: The basis for arresting Mr Farisani I don't know, because I didn't authorise his arrest.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana I would like you to help me understand here, when a person is arrested and he gives an alibi, do you check out that alibi, do you carry on investigation on their alibi given by the person?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Obviously yes.

MS MTANGA: Can you recall what was Dr Farisani's alibi at the time of his arrest?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I think what I can recall he said something that, something like when the police station was attacked he was not there.  And it was true, he was not there.

MS MTANGA: Where was he Mr Ramushwana?  Where was he?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: He wasn't ..

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary that we know where he was?  What has this got to do with the torture of him afterwards.  If we can just get to it.  We don't need to know all details of a person's alibi etc etc.  This in not relevant to this hearing.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  The instruction I have from Dr Farisani are that on the day of the bombing he had left the area and had gone to Johannesburg for a church council meeting, and the Security Branch police were aware of this.  Do you refute this Mr Ramushwana?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I think I also told Dean Farisani that I know, I told him if he can quote those words that  I know "you were not present when the police station was attacked."  I told him that.

MS MTANGA: When did you tell him this?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Long ago.  Eighteen years ago.

MS MTANGA: After the arrest, then after the tortures?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.  During the arrest I think.

MS MTANGA: You told him when, during the arrest?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, when he was still detained I think.

MS MTANGA: But why was he tortured when you were aware that wasn't around?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I didn't torture him.

MS MTANGA: But you ...(intervention)

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I didn't instruct my men to torture him.

MS MTANGA: So who instructed them to torture Dr Farisani?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Look, I think made it very clear from the beginning that what happened in my absence and my men were interrogating,  I was not part and parcel.  Except that I carry responsibility now because they were working under me.  I didn't instruct them to torture Farisani.  I didn't tell them to torture Farisani.  But the point is I went to see Farisani and then I said to him, Dean, I said this in Venda to him "Dean, I know that you never, you were not here when the police station was attacked".

MS MTANGA: Were you aware that he was being tortured by your subordinates?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I only went to see him when I heard some screams.

MS MTANGA: What did you do about it Mr Ramushwana?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I said on that particular issue particularly that. I told to my men, I said "Look, don't ill treat the Dean"  I told them that in his presence.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, I leave this to the evidence of Dr Farisani.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just take up one or two things emanating from your responses to questions put by Ms Mtanga?  You've evidenced that you didn't authorised Mr Farisani's arrest.  Do you know who might have authorised his arrest?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No I think Ramaligela could have authorised it, he was doing the investigation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you were the Deputy Commander and you are responsible for this investigation.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: At that time I was not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were not?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No I came in later.  The man who in charge of the investigation at that time ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Sifuwa

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Sifuwa yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now that would clear my little confusion, because I was getting a little worried why a person responsible for the investigation would not be aware of the arrest of a suspect when he is in charge of that investigation.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: And these people were not arrested at the same time..

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes I am aware.  I have read the statements of the victims when they appeared before the Human Rights Violations Committee.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just clarify one small point.  When the Chairperson asked you about any people who may have needed medical attention I recall that you mentioned the name of Dr Farisani.  Did you obtain any medical attention for him?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I think he was sent to hospital.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana, I'll just make a follow up to the question asked by Advocate Bosman.  In your application you have said that the assaults on the victims were not so serious as such they didn't need, they didn't require medical attention.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I might have said that.  This statement I think everyone of us has made the same statement, but I think here we are looking at individual submission and I think here there was some mistake, I don't know if I am right.

MS MTANGA: If I may ask you, you have seen Dr Farisani and you have seen the extent of his injuries how did he appear, what made you seek medical attention for him?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: He complained to me that he was not feeling well, and I could see that he was bruised.

MS MTANGA: Can you recall how bruised, how bad were the bruises on his body or where exactly were the bruises?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I know his face was swollen.

MS MTANGA: Alright, I'll leave that question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramushwana you are saying the reason why you have alleged that none of the people that were assaulted by you or you underlings ever received serious wounds or had to get medical treatment was because you all had to complete one, one application, but surely these are applications completed by your lawyers at your instruction.  Is it not so?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, but the point is we were trying to recollect information eighteen years ago and we were trying to put these facts together one ...(indistinct).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, eighteen years ago you remembered that Mr Farisani had been arrested and is one the few who needed medical attention.  Didn't you know that?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.  The problem is we are looking at who assaulted who.  Now when it came to that I assaulted Farisani, I couldn't actually indicate that I assaulted Farisani and that I referred him to the hospital.  I couldn't say that.