Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

JUDGE WILSON: So did you say that Nelson Sono told the first applicant to shoot the farmer?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were saying that you went to the house.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, we went to the house.  I do not know exactly what happened, but I spoke to the gardener.  His name was Mr John Geyser.  We decided that we would ask for a glass of water.  I asked water from the gardener.  He said that there is a lady inside the house, a domestic worker.  I then followed the other Comrades.  What I remember is that Madoda Tisana and Philemon Maxam were in front of me.  At that time I was together with Mr John Geyser.

ADV LOURENS: Can you just stop there please.  When you say that you were together with Mr John Geyser, does that mean that you stayed with him or he came with you?  Explain to the Committee what you mean when you say you were together with Mr John Geyser?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: What I am trying to say is that Mr John Geyser was a gardener at the time.  I then spoke to him, asking for a glass of water.  I did not want him to know exactly what we wanted there.  He then told me that there is a lady inside the house.  We can go inside and ask for water.  At that time Madoda Tisana and Philemon Maxam were in front of me.  Then the Comrades asked for water.  Some of us then went at the back and we went to a window next to the kitchen.  This woman, this lady brought a glass of water, but what I remember is that he was, she was giving out water, Madoda Tisana was outside grabbing her.  This woman was screaming.
	I heard a gunshot at the time.  Quickly I ran to Mr John Geyser.  He was then asking me not to shoot him.  I said, no, nobody is going to shoot you.  I went to Mr Maxam saying that we must not shoot this man.  I tied him with wires in the legs.  After tying him I saw that the Comrades were kicking the doors and then we went inside the house.  We searched the house.  I was also searching the house.  I saw Mr Maxam inside in the bedroom.  He was searching under the bed, under the mattresses.  I was also searching in the wardrobes, on top of the wardrobes and everywhere.  After a short while I heard a person saying "sout".  This means that there is someone coming.  I looked outside through the window.  
	I saw a car, a white combi coming towards this farm in Vlakkeland.  We then ran away, all of us.  At the time of this I heard again gunshots.  We were running at the time.  While we were outside the house I heard another gunshot.  We ran away.  If I remember very well there was, Madoda Tisana was handling an agent case at the time.  We went to the township.  That farm was not, is not far from the township.  We managed to get to the township in Mbekweni.  After that we found out that we all managed to run away, but Philemon Maxam was not in our group at the time.  We were scared at that time, because we did not know who the people in the white combi, because there were people in that combi.  They were coming towards the place in which we were.  After seeing that combi we ran away.  We ran to the township.  	I went outside the house with nothing.  The agent case under, which Mr Tisana had, he said that he left it behind.  What I remember is that he had a jewellery box with him with watches, earrings, a ring, money, R2 000,00.  On that same day Madoda Tisana and myself together with some few of us went to Cape Town, on that very same day.  We left Mbekweni to Cape Town.  We went with that jewellery box to Cape Town.  We bought two guns in KTC.  That money, the R2 000,00, we used it as we were in Cape Town.  We came back on the following day with two guns, because it was our intention to have weapons as we were staying in difficult conditions in Mbekweni and we were being attacked all the time by the AZAPO members and SAP and SADF.  We wanted to form groups so that we can defend ourselves as we were living in such conditions in 1985.  
	We came back with two guns, but what I can say is that our aim was not to kill in that place.  We just wanted weapons, but we did mention this that if we were attacked we would defend ourselves, but it was not our aim to kill, but what I can say is that it happened that people died, two people died, Mr John Geyser and Mrs Orolion Annie Foster.  It was not our aim.  I would like to say that the death of the two victims was not planned and I did not encourage it, because we did not go there in order to kill these people, but it just happened.  These guns we would use them in some days, the ones we came with from Cape Town, in KTC.  
	After two months I was arrested.  I was not arrested for this incident, but I was arrested under the State of Emergency in 1986.  I stayed for one, in Victor Verster.  After two months I was then charged of this case, murder and robbery.  What I can say is that we then met, all of us were accused of murder and robbery, but Philemon Maxam was not found at that time.  After a few months the case was dismissed, but after a while we were charged again for the same case.  In court I did not say that, I would like the Commission to note this.  In court we did not mention that this was politically motivated, because I was scared of my life as at the time the courts were not on our side.  If you were involved in the struggle you might lose your life or you might stay for a long time in prison or you might be hanged, but I was sentenced for this incident. 
	When Philemon Maxam was arrested we were already sentenced with Madoda Tisana.  I was called in court, in the Supreme Court here in Cape Town to give evidence when Philemon Maxam was arrested.  I refused to give evidence in court, because I was scared of Maxam's life.  I did not want him to be sentenced.  I was scared that if it was found out that we had a political motive, I was scared of what would happen.  I refused to give evidence when Philemon was arrested, but we were already sentenced at the time.  I was then given 18 months for refusing to give evidence in court.  After a while Maxam came to me asking me to go to court and give evidence.  I was taken from the prison to the court.  I gave evidence in court.  
	We were asked why we went to that farm, but what I can say is that I was sentenced for 18 months because I refused to give evidence.  I was called by the prosecutor to his office.  I gave my evidence to the prosecutor.  I told him that the reason for this incident was that we wanted weapons in that farm.  We did not go there to kill the people, the two people who died.  The prosecutor then wrote down my statement.  He said that he will present my statement in court.  I then after that heard that Maxam was sentenced.
	What I would like to add to the Commission is that we were sentenced and we were apart.  It has been a long time.  I spent ten years in prison.  I am very happy to get this opportunity to give this side of the story.  I know it is very painful, but what I can say is that I did not expect this to happen after ten years in prison.  I did make attempts to ask for forgiveness, because I did not like what happened, that two people would be killed, but it happened that two of them lost their lives.  What I would like to add again is that I would like to ask for forgiveness that two people lost their lives.  I know that this is a very painful thing especially to family members, to parents and to friends of the victims, but I know that it is very painful and I do understand their position, but I would like to emphasise to the parents and to the family members of the victims, Mrs Orolion Annie Foster and Mr John Geyser's family.  That is all I have to say.  Thank you.  
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE LOURENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swart.

MR SWART: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ndinisa, did you know the other members of the group?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: What group?

MR SWART: The group who went to the farm.