Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a decision taken in respect of Dudu after you had administered lashes on the members which were at the hills?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, a decision was taken to fetch her.

CHAIRPERSON: And what were you to do after fetching her?
MR R.B. CELE: Some questions were to be put to her as she allegedly was the person who was going to identify or point out the person who had Martin's body parts.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only decision that was taken in respect of Dudu, that you had to go down, collect her with a view to questioning her?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, as well as for the reason that she was also from that area, Umlazi, having come with these people who were in the area to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take any decision at that stage that she had to be assaulted in the same manner, or in a different manner as the other people had been assaulted by administration of some strokes as people like Zodwa and Nana?
MR R.B. CELE: A decision was taken that she should be given 200 lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that decision taken, by whom?
MR R.B. CELE: It was taken after she had been fetched from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you at that stage, were you in the group that took a decision to administer 200 lashes on her?
MR R.B. CELE: I was present at the "People's Court".

CHAIRPERSON: Was this decision taken after she had been fetched from her hiding place as Amos Cele's house?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And taken up to the hills where you usually held your "Courts", to a place that has been referred to as the "People's Court"?
MR R.B. CELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what role did you have in her assault?
MR R.B. CELE: I was one of the people who consented that she should be given those 200 lashes because of her role.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take part physically in the administration of those lashes on her?
MR R.B. CELE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not participate?
MR R.B. CELE: There were too many people who were standing in the queue to administer lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  So by the time 200 lashes had been administered on her, you had not had your chance?
MR R.B. CELE: As I mentioned before, there were about 600 people there, I was too far away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Cele, what happened after Dudu was assaulted?  Can you please in detail tell the Committee?
MR R.B. CELE: They were ordered to go fetch their belongings and leave the area.

MR MALAN: No the question is not, the question is what happened after Dudu had been assaulted.  In terms of your affidavit, the other group, the males plus the two females, Nana and Zodwa, they were earlier sjamboked and sent away, then only was the decision taken to go and fetch Dudu.  You sent for her, she was found under the bed, she was brought to the Court and then there was a decision to give her 200 lashes, there was this long queue that you talked about and then Dudu was sjamboked.  The question is what happened then, by then the other group had long left, they were long ordered to leave the area.
MR R.B. CELE: Dudu was told exactly the same thing that had been told to the people, that she should leave the area.

MR MALAN: Right, but this was now only Dudu that was told, and this was much later?
MR R.B. CELE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think yes, she was alone at the time.

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting you, but this really becomes important to my understanding of the situation.  Maybe - let me allow you to pursue first this what happened after Dudu's sjamboking.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Mr Cele, you are saying that Dudu was told to leave the area.  What happened in that process while she was leaving?
MR R.B. CELE: As she was leaving, on her way to Mr Cele's house, I think she was just about half way through there, a kombi approached and the people who were in the kombi enquired about what was happening with regards to the people who had come to attack the area.  They were informed that they had been punished and instructed to leave the area, but were still around, they hadn't left the area already.

MR MALAN: I missed that last part of the translation.  They were told what, this is to the Interpreter?  They were told that the people had left the area already or not left?

INTERPRETER: Not left the area already.  They were informed that the people had been punished and ordered to leave the area, but that they had not as yet left.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please proceed Mr Cele.
MR R.B. CELE: The comrades from Amadiqwe disapproved of that punishment, that they should just be let loose.  They regarded them as a serious threat, they said that they could return later to attack.

MR MALAN: May I just take you back to why were the comrades told that the group that were originally sjamboked, had not yet left?  Why did you tell them that they had not yet left, how did you know that?
MR R.B. CELE: From the spot where we were standing, it is possible to see a person leaving the area, you are able to see the bus stop, so you would have been able to see a person boarding a bus.

MR MALAN: You were at the trial and you recall, and I am simply referring to the judgement, that Ernest said that he had left boarding the bus, he was not chased away, he left on the bus?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that.

MR MALAN: In your trial, Ernest gave evidence that he boarded a bus and left on the bus after having been ordered to leave the area?
MR R.B. CELE: What I can explain or comment on that is that the evidence that was presented in court, was incorrect.  They were just trying to make sure that we received a harsh sentence, but the evidence was not true.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely Mr Cele, you are a very large group of 600 persons, you wouldn't be in a position to see who is coming and who is going out in the Cele family?  It is just probable that Ernest might have been the only person to have boarded the bus whilst the others were still preparing their way to leave and that you did not see him leaving?  It is possible that some of these events might have escaped you because I am sure much was happening around you for you to have been able to watch the movement of each and every person that you had punished as to whether he had left the Cele home or not at the time when the kombi arrived?
MR R.B. CELE: From the spot where we were standing, it was possible to see a person going to the bus stop, boarding a bus.   Before they left that house, the comrades of Amadiqwe arrived and told us that we have made a mistake to let them go and then from there, a group of people went to that house and that is when these people fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   What happened after this Amadiqwe comrades have mentioned that they did not agree with your decision?
MR R.B. CELE: A decision was taken that this people should be killed.  That was when the last group of people rushed to Amos Cele's house and these people then fled.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Sorry to interrupt, you said a decision was taken to kill them.  Where you part of that decision?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I was part.  I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom in particular was that decision taken?
MR R.B. CELE: I can say that every member of the structure consented to the killing of those people.

CHAIRPERSON: By every member, who are you referring to, can you give us the names?
MR R.B. CELE: I am referring to myself, Thulani Cele, Bongani Khumalo, Thami Mthembu, Nhlanhleni Makhaya.

CHAIRPERSON: Nhlanhla Makhaya?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Nhlanhla Makhaya in your structure, I thought he was not in your structure, from the evidence led by Mr Thulani Cele, I thought Nhlanhla Makhaya was in fact the leader of the ANC at Gangala?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, he was.  I am referring to that structure, a special structure that had been set up specifically for this reason.