Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now when you were hired by Mr van Zyl - I'm not talking about what you know now, I'm talking about when you were first offered a job, who did you think you were going to be working for?

CHAIRPERSON: You're back in the '80s now?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm going back to 1989.
	Who did you think you were working for?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I was told that they were working in politics, that they wanted to intimidate the enemy.  I thought it was for the country.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you think you were working for the police?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I thought it was for the country.  They told me that they wanted to intimidate the enemy and I thought, well it must be government business this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Had you been in prison before Mr van Zyl offered you a job?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now what did Mr van Zyl tell you who you would be working for, how did he explain it to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl told me that this job had to be done so that the enemy could not enter and that I shouldn't worry because it came from people in the top structure.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Which structure?

ISGAK HARDIEN: People in the top governmental structure.  That's why I thought nothing would happen to me, because it wasn't for a private organisation as such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So I'm assuming you're also going to say then that you were told that if you ever got into trouble with the police, you didn't need to worry, you didn't need to worry if you got arrested, they would sort something out for you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He didn't say it in those words, he just said: "Don't worry, this comes from the big boss."

MR KAHANOVITZ: But were you, you personally, were you worried that you might get arrested and get into trouble?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, honestly not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because I accepted I was doing this for the country, why should I then get into trouble if the government tells me to do this?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but now you plant this bomb and then you get arrested, then what?  What was your understanding?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Then I thought, what now?  I didn't know him as Slang van Zyl yet.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well I'm trying to understand, what is he going to do, come get you out of jail?  How is it going to work?

ISGAK HARDIEN: To tell you the truth, I simply thought that Slang, Theunis de Wet at that stage, would get to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But surely Mr van Zyl told you you must avoid getting arrested, avoid the problem in the first place?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I can recall, he didn't put it that way.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So Mr van Zyl didn't mind if you got arrested.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say that he minded or he didn't mind.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I mean you could plant this bomb in such a way that it didn't matter if anybody saw you planting the bomb, that would be fine, because it didn't matter because Mr van Zyl would get you out of prison, is that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I thought he was working for the government and I thought that I wouldn't go to jail, that he would get me out.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was it your understanding that the government was allowed to kill people, at that time, was that your understanding?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they could kill people and as long as you were doing it for the government, you didn't get into trouble?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, I understood that the enemies at that stage were not allowed to be prominent and if the government said so, then it was acceptable.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see Mr van Zyl said you had no idea that you were working for the government.  Is he not telling the truth when he says that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again, I didn't know that I was working for - I didn't even know CCB, because CCB wasn't even mentioned, it wasn't even mentioned at that stage.  I only found out when I was in John Vorster Square.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes that's why I was asking you what you knew before you got detained.  Isn't it so that before you got detained, you had no idea that you were working for the government?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So all this evidence you've now been giving that you weren't worried about being arrested because the government would get you out of trouble, that can't be your evidence, because at the time that you planted the bomb you didn't know you were working for the government.  You've just admitted that, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I understood that I didn't have to worry, Mr van Zyl said that the big bosses would be there and I thought well that must be the government, because who else would be the big boss of the country.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So does that explain why when you went to plant the bomb, you weren't worried about telling Mr Williams that there's a bomb in the building, because you weren't worried about being arrested?  Can I just make sure, let me go one step back so that you understand my question.  Your evidence has been that you went to warn Mr Williams that there's a bomb about to explode in the building, do I understand your evidence properly?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I understand.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And it must be obvious to you that Mr Williams, after the bomb went off, would give your name to the police and tell the police: "Mr Hardien came to tell me there's a bomb in this building."  That must be obvious to you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And it must also be obvious to you that after Mr Hardien gave that information to the police, you would be arrested in connection with the bomb blast.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I didn't think that I would be arrested.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh come, come, Mr Hardien, you're not seriously going to suggest to the Committee that after Mr Williams tells the police that you told him about the bomb, they're not going to come and arrest you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: At that stage I really didn't think that they would arrest me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're saying as long as the police heard it was Mr Hardien who planted the bomb, they wouldn't be worried because Mr Hardien can plant bombs wherever he wants to?  Is that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm not saying that, because I was under the impression that it came from the bigshots.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They will fix it up?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I would say so, fix it up.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now what was your understanding of the purpose of this explosion?

ISGAK HARDIEN: To intimidate them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who?  Who's "hulle"?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The people that Mr van Zyl was working for.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm just trying to understand, when you talk about "hulle", who are you talking about?  Are you talking about the ANC, are you talking about the Kewtown youth, are you talking about the soccer club?  Who are you talking about?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Oh, I understand now.  I told Mr van Zyl and the others that the UDF and the Kewtown Youth Movement were involved in these cases of arson and such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I understand what you're saying.  I want to know who the target of the bomb blast was, was it a person, was it an organisation or was it a building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was the organisation that we wanted to intimidate.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Which organisation?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The Kewtown Youth Movement.  If Mr Williams could just assist me, was it a UDF movement?

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, no, Mr Williams isn't going to help you, all I want to know is what Mr van Zyl explained to you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: The United Democratic Front, I think.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was it the United Democratic Front or the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told Mr van Zyl that the Kewtown Youth Movement and the UDF were aligned.

MR KAHANOVITZ: As far as you understood they were the same thing?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were they the same thing, as you understood it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you're very clear in your own mind that the target was the Kewtown youth, one of the targets?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.