Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: During that time when everything was happening,there was a march organised to the councillors' offices.  Thecommunity of Maokeng was complaining about the arrears, that theydo not even know about the high payments of the electricity, asif they were operating factories. As we were organising the peopleat the shopping centres, members of the 3 million gang came. They attacked the people, the people dispersed.  We had to organisethe people back to the
shopping centre.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Any other occasion that you can remember?

UNKNOWN: That is the only one I remember, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is there any other way in which membersof the 3 million gang interfered with the affairs of the ANC orany political organisation?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In which way?

UNKNOWN: There was a time when a consumer boycott wasconducted, and we have been preaching to the people the importanceof consumer boycott.  Those who had businesses, we wanted themto gain.  We tried to talk to the councillors to tell them thatthe monies that we have to pay are so heavy - we made door-to-doorcampaign.  And those people, the members, got into the streetsand our members were threatened, they couldn't continue with thedoor-to-door campaign.  They were told to stop their message.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did that kind of conduct on the part ofthe 3 million gang have a negative effect on the campaign forthis consumer boycott?

UNKNOWN: Yes, because the community of Maokeng wasso threatened.  If you went into a house as a family you knowto explain to them what was happening, they will say to you itdoesn't help for you to come and tell us.  We know that we haveto be part of this, but tomorrow when we come back 3 million gangis going to kill us saying that we have been involved in the marchtogether with the members of the ANC.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I don't know if you would be able to havean answer to this question, but in so interfering with the activitiesof the organisation, what did the 3 million gang actually standto gain?

UNKNOWN: They wanted to terminate ANC.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you think there would be any benefitto them by having the ANC terminated?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What benefit do you think would be there?

UNKNOWN: The Council would carry on letting the peoplepay very high rates on top of the threats that the community hadalready received.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When you speak of the Council, are youreferring to the Maokeng Town Council?

UNKNOWN: Maokeng Town Councils, the former one.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It is fairly known throughout the countrythat there was a time when there were Town Councils and Mayorswhich were rejected by the majority of the black people throughoutthe country.  Is the Council that you are referring to that kindof Council?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Where did the revenue for the Council comefrom?  Do you know?

UNKNOWN: Can you please repeat your question?

JUDGE MGOEPE: For the Council to run properly, I am sureit needed to have money.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What were the sources, where did the Councilget its monies from?

UNKNOWN: I think it was one of the Nationalist Partytools, they used to get money from the Nationalist Party.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did the Council also collect money fromthe residents or want to collect money from the residents in theform of the tariffs, such as for electricity and water etc. etc?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were there any boycotts aimed against paymentof those things?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is this one of the boycotts that you saythe 3 million gang interfered with?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yesterday you testified about a possiblerelationship between, or collusion between the police and possiblythe prosecutors or prosecutor.  Now did you see any visible relationshipor any evidence of working together between the 3 million gangand the Town Council?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How did they work together?

UNKNOWN: The then Council and the 3 million gang collaboratedbecause on many occasions we would see that the Mayor's transportwould be used by the 3 million gang members to attack the communityof Maokeng.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You have said two things in that sentence,and I want you to treat them separately.  Firstly you have saidthat members of the 3 million gang used to be transported by thekombis which belonged to the then Mayor.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is what I said.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And then you said they would attack peopleor something to that effect with the kombis.  Let's leave thatfor a while.  On how many occasions did you see members of the3 million gang being transported in the vehicles of the Mayor? Whether they were going for shopping or for a picnic or to goas you say to go and kill people it doesn't matter.  I just wantto know how many times did you see them being transported in thevehicles of the Mayor?

UNKNOWN: This used to happen almost everyday becausethese were the people.  The kombis would take them to town andgo to town to take them back.  If they were supposed to appearbefore the court, they would be taken by those kombis and thenbe taken back in the same kombis.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were these kombis operating as taxis inwhich any person could get into them, or would these kombis transportonly members of the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: At first they were the public transport, butafter the community had a campaign against him he deemed it fitto use them for the 3 million gang.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So at some stage the people of Maokengrefrained from using the kombis of the Mayor.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: They were initially used.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now after the people decided not to usehis taxis he then used it for the purpose of transporting the3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Were these taxis that belonged to himin his private capacity?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many kombis are we talking about?

UNKNOWN: There would be about five or six.  He hada lot of kombis.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What do you mean when you say the membersof the 3 million gang also used these kombis to attack membersof the public or the people?

UNKNOWN: I mean they were like an armoured vehiclewhen they wanted to fight, because everywhere they wanted to goand fight they would be sitting in that transport.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you see any such occasion where theyused these kombis?

UNKNOWN: Many a times.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just give me the name of the Mayor at thetime?

UNKNOWN: Mr Caswell Qweqwe(?).

JUDGE MGOEPE: What do you mean by saying that on occasionsas the members of the 3 million gang drove into town with thekombis the police followed them?

UNKNOWN: They used to accompany them so that they aresafe, so as to take their mission forward as well.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What are these objectives?

UNKNOWN: To terrorise the community of Maokeng andto see to it that the ANC is terminated.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Can you give us an idea more or less ofthe number of members of the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: The number of the members of the 3 milliongang?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.  I know it will not be exact, but justgive us some indication?

UNKNOWN: Plus or minus 30, plus those who were livingnear to (inaudible) because they feared that if they don't jointhey will be killed, but the original members, they were plusor minus 30.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Would they fill all the five to six kombisanyway?

UNKNOWN: Yes, plus those who were fearing their lives. I mean 30 people can make two kombis and then the others
were those maybe who lived nearer to (inaudible) and returningas if they are because of their life.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were there people who were forced to jointhe 3 million gang or to be supporters of the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: I hope so.  Because ...(intervention).

JUDGE MGOEPE: You think so.

UNKNOWN: It is so, because they used to do it, to forcepeople to join it.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And can you tell us more or less of thestrength, the strength of the self-defence unit?

UNKNOWN: The strength?