Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR P DU PLESSIS: Either you remember that the doors were open wide and were standing open, or you remember ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were not standing open.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Or you remember that they weren't open completely, or you cannot remember, one of three, which one do you choose?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The doors were not open completely sir, so they automatically closed thereafter.

MR P DU PLESSIS: All right, you can clearly remember that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Plessis, I just want to get some clarity, while you are on this point.  Photograph 5, was there glass in the doors?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, it was a glass door.

CHAIRPERSON: So what difference does it make if it is closed or not, could you see through the glass?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.  It was that ...

CHAIRPERSON: So why are you making a distinction whether the door was open or not open if you can see through the glass?
	If the door were closed at that time, could one be in the foyer and see people sitting in the hall, through the glass or was there curtaining or was the glass painted?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The glass wasn't painted, I think there was curtaining on the top side of the glass.   You will see, it must have had four panes of window, four window panes, the top ...

CHAIRPERSON: Looking at this photo, I cannot see.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: But right on top, you could see that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot see the remnants of curtains?  Yes, it might be.  Anyway ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: But you could see the lights were on inside.

CHAIRPERSON: From the top?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: From the top.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  If you look at the door, it is obviously completely blown out there, were there glass panes in there, in the door?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, there were glass panes in the door.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you could see through there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I think the top part, there were four panes in the door, the top part had curtains, but if you look at photograph 1, if you stand in the foyer, you look through those double doors, you see those windows on top there, you can see the lights there, clearly.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But it is just interesting that you would after all the years, specifically remember that no one cared to open the doors open wide, so that they wouldn't swing shut in the next person's face.  Why do you remember that so well?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, some things you remember, some things you don't.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you know if you remember some small detail like that, there is normally something which make you remember that, like a beautiful blond coming out and letting the door go and letting it smash into someone's face, something like that.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Blondes might excite you sir, it does not excite me.  With all due respect.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, but the point is any good looking lady excites me, but anyway  the point I wish to make is that there is nothing on which, to which you could refer and say this is why I remember it, isn't it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, the point is that that door had pulleys on it, and I knew when we walked in towards the boardroom, the doors were closed, so it had to close by itself.  I remember it.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You are saying when you walked into the foyer?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, when I walked in towards the boardroom to the Cayco meeting.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The doors were closed, I remember it.  I am just that type of guy, I can remember certain things if I wanted to.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And from that fact now you say that it wasn't previously opened wide, and that is why they were shut when you walked to the boardroom?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The fact of the matter is sir, they could have been opened wide, and someone could have come like the night watchman and closed it, do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The point is you are saying to me, and I will get to the relevance of this point, you are saying to me that why you remember that the doors were not opened wide, is because of the fact that when you went into the boardroom for the Cape Youth Congress meeting, the doors were closed, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So they must have swung closed automatically?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: And before that, I fully agree, that is correct, but before that, I was in the foyer all along, so I would have remembered that Jack, the caretaker, come and close the door, but he didn't.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sir, there were many people around in the foyer, isn't it? They were standing socialising there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Correct, smoking as you said?  Correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you talking to people?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think I should have?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, sir?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So did you have any reason to specifically note whether the night watchman was coming or going, walking around there, did you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I knew how Jack acted around people, Jack was a shy guy, but beyond that I was an inquisitive guy, I looked around.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have any reason to note what the night watchman was doing, yes or no?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, but I knew that he would never come and interfere if people were still around, he would come and or close if there was no one in the building.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Would he always wait until the whole building was vacated before he would go to a specific place, a specific hall or a specific room and lock that, is that what you are saying?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Come again?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you know his comings and goings and the way he did his work to such an extent that you can say that he would never lock a specific room or a specific hall if there was any person still present in the building, is that what you are saying?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I can clearly say that sir, because the hall didn't have a lock like a key that you put in and turn, that he could do to lock the hall, was to put the chain across the arms of the door.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And was it done?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was not done.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was it done to lock the hall on occasion, if it was necessary?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was very seldom done.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But it was done sometimes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, but then you would see the chain.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am not understanding this.

MR LAX: Sorry, are you suggesting, sorry, I just want to be clear, are you putting a version to him that the hall was locked?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Mr Lax, I will get to that, I will refer to documents.  I cannot put a version to him, because I haven't got instructions on that, and my people weren't there, but it is a very important point, and I will get to some documentation.  I will not belabour the point any longer.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Plessis.  Was Mrs Beulah Fredericks there that night?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She was there earlier the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: What (indistinct)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In fact what would have happened is ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, what is early in the evening?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Just before, at about, just after eight she left as well.  When I came there, she was still there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Peter Williams, was he also supposed to attend the meeting of the Cape Youth Congress that evening?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Excuse me?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was Mr Williams also supposed to attend the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He went to the meeting.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was he supposed sir, to attend the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So he was, this is a regional meeting and because of his position, if I am now understanding it correctly in the Kewtown Youth Movement, he was supposed to attend?