Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: According to my instructions Mr Cele, apparently they told you that these people were Martin Ngcobo's relatives who had come to see Martin Ngcobo's three month old baby and who had also come to find out whether they could find the other parts that were missing in his body.  What is your response to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I wasn't told about this.

MS THABETHE: Did you know that Martin was staying with Nococanya?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I knew that.

MS THABETHE: Did you know that they had a three month old baby?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Even though I didn't know the months of the baby, but I knew that they had a baby together.

MS THABETHE: Did you know that the people who had come to Amos Cele's house were related to Martin Ngcobo?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't know that.

MS THABETHE: Who did you think these ...

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, did Dudu, the deceased come with them or was she staying at your place, in your vicinity, your area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: If you could please repeat that question.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't Dudu come with the people from Umlazi?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, she came with them.

ADV DE JAGER: And you knew she was the sister of the deceased, Martin?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I know that.   But at the time when I had a conversation with Nococanya, Diana and Simon, I didn't know that the people from Umlazi came with Dudu.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.   I just wanted to make a follow up of the question that I have asked, you are saying you never knew who these people were before you spoke to Nococanya, is that your evidence?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't know that.  The only thing I knew is that there were people, I was told that there were people who came to pay revenge on Martin's death and that is why I asked Nococanya because I knew that Nococanya was related to Martin or was a wife or Martin.  I wanted relatives to explain if they have any idea about these people who came, but then I didn't know who they were.

MS THABETHE: Mr Cele, do you know or did you know that Nococanya is Amos Cele's daughter?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: So was it strange to you if these people came to Nococanya's father's house instead of coming to her house, was that strange to you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Nococanya is also my relative, even though we are staying in different houses.

MS THABETHE: My question is was it strange that they came to Amos, they arrived in Amos Cele's house instead of Nococanya's house bearing in mind that Nococanya was Amos Cele's daughter?  My question is was there anything strange?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I don't quite understand your question, I would like you to clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just explain.  What is being asked of you is whether you found it peculiar that the people who allegedly came from Umlazi had gone to Nococanya's place instead of going to - had gone to Amos Cele's house instead of going to Nococanya's house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, it was strange to me that why if they came to pay revenge, they came to Amos Cele's house, not from Nococanya's house.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't seem to be responding pointedly to the question.  You have now introduced another element, now just try and confine your answers to what is being put to you without having to elaborate because in doing so, you are also confusing your own evidence.  Was there anything strange when these persons came to Amos Cele's house and not to Nococanya's house?  Yes, if you think there was, and then you may proceed to elaborate why you thought it was strange.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I have never seen these people to that area, this was my first time to see these people.  Dudu was the one who usually comes to the area to visit, but the place she would visit was Nococanya's, not Amos' place.

MS THABETHE: Mr Cele, I put it to you that since there were five people who had come from Umlazi, and they had come to Nococanya's home or Nococanya's father's home, there was nothing strange about that, what is your response?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he just responded to that, Ms Thabethe?  He says it was strange because Dudu used to visit Nococanya and not Amos Cele, you can take it no further than that, I think.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.   You have also mentioned on paragraph 9, Mr Cele, that there were people standing outside and they were shouting that they wanted Martin's hand or arm.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: How many people were shouting that, can you remember?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I cannot remember how many people, but there were a few people who were outside.

MS THABETHE: Were they just shouting or were they shouting at you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They were just shouting to the direction of my house and I wasn't the only one who was at my house, my other sisters were there as well.  They said a lot, but what I can remember is what they have directed to me, they asked me specific, that is what I can remember.

MS THABETHE: My next question was going to be, I guess I should ask that question, how did you know that these comments that they wanted Martin's hand and arm, were directed to you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They asked me who was Thulani and I said I was Thulani and they said they are coming to fetch Martin's hand.

MS THABETHE: My instructions Mr Cele, are that there is no such incident that happened.  The only thing that happened is Dudu Ngcobo did mention the fact that they were looking for Martin's hand or arm, whilst she was standing outside Amos Cele's home which happened to be next to yours, and that is how you heard about this comment, but it was not directed to you.  What is your comment to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I don't know about that.

MS THABETHE: In your evidence you have stated that the reason why you took these people into the hill where they were sjamboked, it is because they were people who came to attack your house?  Do you remember that evidence?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: You mean us taking them to the hill?

MS THABETHE: Maybe I should read what you say in paragraph 10.  You say
"... on the 26th of December, we waited for them, myself, Roy and my other friends.  All my friends left at 11.00 am, then these people saw an opportunity and came towards my house."
	My instructions are that no such incident occurred, what is your comment to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: To me it is still exactly what I have stated.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what is being asked of you is, why did you wait for them to attack you and you had to wait in the company as you have alleged at paragraph 10 of Roy Cele and your other friends on the 26th of December?  Have they given or made any suggestion that they would be attacking you, I think that is what is being asked of you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: This is after I heard that the reason they came there, they came to pay revenge on Martin's death and that is why my friends stayed with me, because they realised that I was alone and if they were to leave me alone, I was going to be easily attacked, therefore they stayed with me until late and the next morning, they decided to go back to their respective homes to bed and eat, that is when they started shouting or approaching my house.