Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR MOKOENA: I didn't link it to the Stratcom document.  The point I was trying to make was the fact that yes Mama asked me about that document and in my mind I thought that that document that she asked about was that one of - which was a product of a meeting which was held at Dobsonville.  Which meeting troubled her because it took positions that meant that she must be isolated, et cetera, et cetera.   And there was an impression created that that document was sanctioned by the Mandela Crisis Committee.  So I was saying then to be consistent with our submission that document is not owned by the Crisis Committee.
MR ?: I am afraid I still don't understand but then Mr Vally may be (indistinct).

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Chairman, I want to say that I have no recollection of a discussion between myself and Mrs Mandela about the report which was written by this committee to Mr Oliver Tambo.  I don't remember any discussion with her about Stratcom.   If she had a discussion with anybody about Stratcom it can't have been myself.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Mufamadi.

MR MOKOENA: Can I just before you say that, I think it is important, Chairperson, to actually put it on record that this document Annexure C was produced by members of the committee, that is why we attached it here.  And that in
the annexure B on page 2 the paragraph 2 from below until after they left the Mandelas' temporary Diepkloof home, both Mono and Mekgwe persistently maintained that they came to the house willingly and that they were not assaulted.  A confidential letter which was sent to the then president of the African National Congress, Mr O R Tambo, does indicate that save for Katiza Cebekhulu the other two maintained this position until they left the Diepkloof house.  The letter to Mr Tambo was written by members of this committee who were Sidney Mufamadi and Aubrey Mokoena and Sister Bernard.  I am just using a document of 1992 because at that time we referred to the document which was this same document.  And this was a public statement so it was reported publicly.

MR VALLY: We will come back to that document.  All right, I want to go on to where we were when we left off yesterday.  I am now looking at page 88 of the first section 29.  I want to read you an extract from page 88 onwards.  I am saying this in relationship to your - page 2 of your submission where you say the burning of the Mandela house and the origins of the Mandela Crisis Committee.  I understood you to say that after Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house was burnt it created an intervention by prominent members of the community who later came to be known as the Mandela Crisis Committee to try and mediate the issue and also assist in rebuilding the house.  I want to put to you what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said about this issue.  On page 88 I asked the question
"Were you aware of any tension between the Mandela United Football Club and other schools
  in the area or football clubs"?
Mrs Madikizela-Mandela:
"I know nothing about that, Mr Chairman.  I heard these things in the media".
I ask:
"What information can you give us about the attack on your Orlando West home by the Daliwonga students in February 1987?"
Mrs Madikizela-Mandela:
"I was hoping someone would come and apply for amnesty and let me know and give me included that information".
I then asked:
"Do you have no knowledge of what caused them to attack and burn your house down?"
I am told:
"No, my house was bombed as much as I was bombed in Brandfort.  Three times.  It was nothing new to me because ...."
I try and interrupt - 
"But in this particular - I beg your pardon".
And she goes on:
"Because I have been bombed throughout my political life of the time".
And I ask:
"But in this particular case, initially at least, a number of youths from the Daliwonga school were in fact charged".
I am told:
"I know nothing about that, I was not consulted, I was never told they had arrested some children
 who were charged.  You can go and check the court record".
I then ask:
"Was it not of the burning down of your house in Orlando West that what was referred to in the early stages as the Mandela Crisis Committee and subsequently as the Soweto Crisis Committee, was formed to mediate between the Mandela United Football Club and the scholars from Daliwonga?"
The response is:
"No, I know nothing about that distortion of facts.  I don't know the Crisis Committee to have anything to do with the burning of the house in Orlando.  That is news to me".
I ask:
"When did you know about the Crisis Committee?  This is now Aubrey Mokoena, Rev Frank Chikane, Sister Bernard, Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, Rev Beyers Naude, Mr Sidney Mufamadi?"
And there is mention of Mr Murphy Morobe as well.   No, no sorry and then I exclude Mr Murphy Morobe.  And Mrs Madikizela-Mandela asks me:
"Of the Crisis Committee?"
I said that is right.  Mrs Mandela answers:
"No, I think the people who formed the Crisis Committee, the way it was formed would be able to help us in that regard.  I was not part of the formation".
And then she goes on to say:
"Nor do I know the particular or the names, I am hearing of them for the first time.  I do know a
  Crisis Committee was formed in Diepkloof".
I don't know if I need to go on.  But maybe further down that page where the chairperson Mr Ntsebeza asks:
"You yourself, when did you become aware of the existence of this group of people calling themselves the Soweto Crisis?"
And Mrs Madikizela-Mandela says:
"Well some community leaders just came home, I didn't even know they were in Crisis Committee.  I was not formally informed there was a Crisis Committee formed, nor was I informed where it was informed".
Sorry, it is probably a typographical error.  Where it was formed.  
"... by whom it was formed.  A group of community leaders did visit me, although I wouldn't remember all of them".
And I ask:
"When was the first time you became aware of them, was it when they visited you?"
And she said:
"Yes".
 "When was that?"
She says:
"Oh, I think it was somewhere in 1989".
And I said:
"In what connection did they come and see you?"
Mrs Mandela answered:
"It was in connection with the youths who were in my house".
And I asked:
"What specifically regarding the youths?"
And she said:
"The youths were in the house, they were brought by Falati to my house".
Finally on this issue, I won't drag it out much longer.
"We will come back to that.  So regarding the burning down of your house in 1988 did the Crisis Committee have nothing to do with it in terms of trying to mediate to the best of your knowledge?"
And the answer I was given is:
"I think the Crisis Committee would be competent to answer this questions".
And I persisted, this is now four pages.  
"But did they come and talk to you about it?"
The answer was:
"They did come to talk to me.  I wouldn't remember the details now, it is a long time ago, it was during all those difficult times anyway but there is a court record to that effect and I believe you would have access to it if you want to question us about the Crisis Committee all that is documented".
Anyway, it went on like that.  The question is it appears as if Mrs Madikizela-Mandela wasn't aware that you were there to mediate between the youth in her house and the Daliwonga students.  Did you make it clear to her what your proposed role was?