Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant already gave evidence, but I'd like to amend something, that the word "later" must be inserted before "Phil Klopper", meaning "later Phil Klopper told us that General Oelofse", page 93.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this gentleman your client, Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have already... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knoetze.

MR KNOETZE: May it please you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Visser, can I ask you to look at page 12, paragraph 17 of the set of applications?   That application is the application of Phil Kloppers.   I am reading it to you
"At nine o'clock I arrived at the roadside cafe and brought the people to attention.   I told them that the waiting period is over and that the revolution will start today countrywide.   I gave them the instruction of General Oelofse.   They were informed that General Oelofse wanted to see corpses, and I took out the two pipe shotguns and gave it to Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff who did not have weapons.   I gave the instruction that we have to set up a roadblock where people will be asked if they had weapons or ammunition, and if they had we would seize that."
Do you see there that Mr Klopper said that he gave you the weapons?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: Furthermore, I'd like to refer you to page 239 of the record, 249 of the record, I will read it to you.  It is Mr Kloppers that gives evidence
"MR KLOPPERS:  And it was said three of them did not have weapons, and Martin van der Schyff, Etienne Visser, I gave two pipe shotguns to them."
Can you remember that in his evidence he said that he gave the pipe shotguns to them?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I can hear that, yes.

MR KNOETZE: Can I then furthermore refer you to page 31 of the set of applications, it is the application of Deon Martin, paragraph 11.   It says
"Not all of us in the group had weapons and Phil Klopper gave two home-made pipe shotguns that he received from General Oelofse to Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff.   Gerhard Diedericks had a baton."
Can I refer you to page 28 of the record, where he gave evidence in front of this committee, he gave the following evidence:-
"And at the roadside cafe itself, Phil Kloppers took out two shotguns and, or handmade shotguns, he handed over one to Etienne Visser and the other to Martin van der Schyff."
Do you understand that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I do understand it.

MR KNOETZE: And then page 45 of the set of applications, paragraph 8, that is the application of Matthew's.   Have you got it in front of you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: "Not all of us had weapons, but Phil Klopper gave to Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff each a pipe shotgun, home-made shotguns.   The pipe shotguns were given to him by General Japie Oelofse."
	Can I then refer you to page 61, paragraph 5, it begins on page 60, have you got it in front of you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: "Not all of us had weapons, but Phil Klopper gave to Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff each a pipe shotgun (home-made shotguns).   The pipe shotguns were given to him by General Japie Oelofse."
	Then page 77, paragraph 6, that is the application of Meiring.   You can read that paragraph again, you will see that they are the same as the others, with the spelling mistakes included.   Can you see it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Then page 121 of the record, when Meiring gave evidence in front of this committee, I read it to you
"MEIRING:  At that point I was not certain who did he give them to.    One was given to Martin van der Schyff and the other one to Etienne Visser."
That is a reference, if you read the foregoing paragraphs, referring to the hand shotguns.   In other words, it's Meiring's evidence in front of this committee.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: And then page 109 of the set of applications, paragraph 14, that is the application of Badenhorst.   It begins at page 108 at the bottom
"Not all of us had weapons, but Phil Kloppers gave Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff each a pipe shotgun (home-made shotguns).   The shotguns were provided by Japie Oelofse."
Can you see that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: And then page 131, paragraph 3, that is the application of Diedericks
"Not all of us had weapons but Phil Kloppers gave Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff each a pipe shotgun (home-made shotguns).   These pipe shotguns were given by or provided by Japie Oelofse.   I only had a baton."
Can you see that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Then page 93, that is your own application, paragraph 6, will you just read what it says in your own application?
MR VISSER
"Not all of us had weapons, but Phil Kloppers gave Martin van der Schyff and myself a pipe shotgun (home-made shotguns).   These pipe shotguns were provided by General Japie Oelofse."

MR KNOETZE: And that statement you made under oath, is that correct?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that is.

MR KNOETZE: And all these other applications that I referred you to, were they done under oath?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: And the evidence that you gave and which I referred you to, was that also made under confirmation?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Yesterday for the first time after my client filled in an amended application, for the first time Mr Klopper talks about something that has never been mentioned before and says that my client took one of the weapons from... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: With respect your honour, Mr Chairperson, it was never said that the weapon was grabbed from someone, it was said that he was handed over, and then Diedericks will give evidence that he said what the problem was and that he did not know how to work this weapon.

MR KNOETZE: The evidence was that my client took this weapon and said, "I will show you how to shoot a kaffir".

MR PRINSLOO: I understand the evidence to be, Mr Chairman, that my client took the weapon from Diedericks, saying to him or to the group, whoever, "Give me the weapon, I will show you how I shoot a kaffir".  That is what was said.

MR KNOETZE: Yes, Chair, in terms of my notes, it was prefaced by "It would not have come out, but..."

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose, I think I recollect something like that, except that I thought, I don't know if this really makes any difference, maybe I misunderstood, I thought it was at the scene... (intervention).

MR KNOETZE: No, no, M'Lord, Mr Chairman... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...when he said, "Bring this..."... (intervention).

MR KNOETZE: ...it was at the road, at the roadhouse.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.   All right.

MR KNOETZE: At the roadhouse.   So... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, can I just rectify that.   My learned colleague said in English, "He grabbed the weapon", and it's a difference than taking it off someone.   So he will have to rectify that.

ADV BOSMAN: Maybe I can just help you here.   I did indeed wrote it down verbatim.   He said Van der Schyff took the weapon from Diedericks and said to him, "You do not know how to shoot, I will show you."