Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR DREYER: Mr Badenhorst, I want you to understand this very well.   Some of the previous witnesses are saying to you, the same as pain is a subjective experience, if you come and tell me you've got a back pain, there's no instrument that I could use to determine whether you really have a back pain and I have to accept your word for that, is that correct, and in the same sense I cannot look into your heart to see what your political or religious convictions are, is that correct?   I accept what you are telling me and therefore I have no reason not to believe that you are telling the truth if you say that in 1993, as a 20 year old man you were under the conviction that the communistic system was a threat to your people, I have no problem with that, I cannot deny that.   I can also not deny that you were influenced by speeches of the AWB leaders and other right organisations.   It was accepted that Terreblanche is a
very charismatic speaker and that he could incite people.   Now I return to what you've said concerning that night.   You said that night at the scene you said that the adrenaline was flowing, is that correct, at the road block itself?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, no, that's true.

MR DREYER: So you felt whipped up?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, and we were quite tense.

MR DREYER: Ja, that's what I wanted to say, because it goes further, in your application, also in the application of the previous witness, it was said that after these two vehicles stopped and then pulled away, everybody was very militant and they were ready, and they were also very tense?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct, yes.

MR DREYER: So there's more attention put to what might happen?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: It looked very suspicious, and we were warned against that, that we had to be careful.

MR DREYER: And if I look at your application, it would seem already the fact that you did not only draw a line between politics and communism, but also with regards to religion, in paragraph 4?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: The religion I then practised and which I still practise today is not the same.

MR DREYER: Well what I want to say is that you referred that at that stage it also came down to your religion as well as the politics, you really saw communism as a threat?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, definitely, Chairperson.

MR DREYER: And at that stage you were 20 years old and you saw a person who submitted to you and he is the Chief Commandant of that area, you considered yourself a soldier and also saw yourself as under the command of this person?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And you say at the end of your evidence during cross-questioning by Mr Knoetze, you said that you respected the ranks of him and Martin and you had no reason to doubt their word?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And when Mr Kloppers told you, "I received the following instructions from General Oelofse", you also respected Oelofse as a very important man within the right-wing organisation?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, yes, definitely.

MR DREYER: But you never received such a direct instruction from Oelofse?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, not directly from Oelofse, but through the channels and the way we worked.

MR DREYER: And my question is simple, you did comply to those instructions because you believed those were the instructions given?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct.

MR DREYER: But for any other reason, if you thought that there was no such instruction, would you have continued on your own, on your own initiative?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Chairperson.

MR DREYER: And if Mr Kloppers, for whatever reason, was under the same conviction as you, if he did not convey these instructions correctly or if you misunderstood the instructions, what would your comment then be?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, if that was the case, we would not have known, because we only received instructions from Kloppers and we followed them.

MR DREYER: Mr Knoetze asked you, and he made a statement and said that it seems as if these instructions were more general statements during that time which were said at meetings and it was said in general that something had to be done, we cannot allow that an election is held, because it's going to be disadvantageous to our people, is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR DREYER: And I'll return to two other things you've said.  You said afterwards you were praised by Oelofse and I don't want to do this with every witness because I do not want to waste time, I just want to make sure, when you were at the festivities you said that you were called in order to stand an honour of guard, guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct, we were asked to stand guard of honour.

MR DREYER: Isn't it more correct that there was a call-up, that AWB members who were completely dressed in their uniform, because everybody was not dressed in AWB uniforms, that these members must stand a guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That can't be, because there were thousands of them in uniform.

MR DREYER: But what I would like to know is, is it your version that you specifically were singled out to do the guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's how I felt.

MR DREYER: And was it only the people who were part of your group who formed the guard of honour, or were there other people as well in uniform who formed the guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: There would always by "Ystergard" members in their black uniforms who were responsible for security.

MR DREYER: So you weren't the only ones who formed the guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, but we were singled out from thousands of others to form the guard of honour.

MR DREYER: But my statement is, you were not the only ones who formed the guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, yes, basically we were, because the "Ystergard" men were there for security.

MR DREYER: I put it to you that it is not the case, and I'll leave it for argument, as far as it would be necessary.  Just one other statement, you also said that later, while you were in detention, certain promises were made regarding medallions, etcetera.   At the end of the statement you were asked where they came from and your recommendation and you said that you thought it came from Oelofse, is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, I said it came from him.

MR DREYER: But then I heard you incorrectly, because your voice trailed off.   If I can just return.   In conclusion, in different stages or phases during your application, etcetera, certain amendments were made and through evidence that was given certain corrections were made, where and when and what the order was, through the different people that testified.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: According to me, Mr Chairperson, according to my knowledge, this is exactly how it happened and where the orders came from at the roadhouse.

MR DREYER: Let us make it applicable only to you.   You are the second witness, your application was amended with specifically with the allegation that you only heard later that these instructions came from General Oelofse, so you are the second person today.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct.