Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.  We left on that particular day, everything was arranged and I was told about the members because Bla had already arranged with those SDU members who were going there with me.  Even the place itself, was already identified, the police station that is.
	We left, it was myself, Bla, comrade Nqiqi Hlango, comrade Clark Sibeko and comrade Kathi.  On our way to the place, when we arrived at the police station, he gave us the firearms.
	I cannot remember what type of firearm I had, whether it was a shotgun or something else.  I had to stand at a certain position, to be on the lookout if there would be police or other police vehicles that would be coming in, hence I was there to defend and there were other people who were to be at the front line, that was comrade Nqiqi and comrade Clark.
	When I went in there, I remained outside.  I think comrade Bla was in the car.  When I came in, the people were ordered to lay down.  There were two policemen.  The role that I played there, one policeman that was laying on the floor, he wanted to look at my face, that is the police that I tried to prevent him from lifting up his head and I used my foot to do so.
	They requested the keys to the safe and in the safe, the pistols were removed.  The palm guns and the R4 rifles and the R1, if I am not mistaken.  
	After doing that, as they were still laying on the floor, we cut the telephone wire and we went back into the car and we went back to the township.  When we arrived at the township, we left the stuff with Bla because it was at night and the following day, Bla as the Commander, distributed them to the other Sections who were also in the war zone, the other Sections that were also in the war zone.

MR MASHABANE: For all the offences, is that all as far as Kliprivier is concerned?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: If my memory serves me well, I think that is the end of the incident, when we get to the township and we left the firearms with Bla Kubeka.

MR MASHABANE: For all the activities or offences which you committed, what was the motive behind?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The reason for me to take part or play a role, it is because as one of the SDU members, we did not have enough firearms to protect the community.  That is where I decided to play a role, or make it a point that we bring these firearms so that at the end of the day, we managed to protect the community that was being attacked by the IFP members.

MR MASHABANE: Who initiated the formation of the SDU?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I am the one who initiated that in my Section.  I am the one who brought that idea.
	We were at a meeting, ANC Youth League Meeting.  In that particular meeting, an Executive meeting of which I was also part of, a decision was taken because most people left their Sections because they were being attacked by the IFP members and they fled to my Section, that was Slovo Section.
	Therefore we had to approach the Umkhonto weSizwe, that is the military wing of the African National Congress.  When it was approached, I was not part of the delegation that was going to those people, but after a number of days, people who were not known to me, came with the exception of one person, they came to me and I only knew comrade Qaba in that group of people.  
	When he came to me, he told me that I was supposed to take steps about what was taking place in that Slovo Section, because I was the Chairman of the Section.
	He gave me a mandate to protect the community of Tokoza.  The only way to defend the community, for us to be able to defend the community, the only way was to get firearms.  They said together with those comrade, they were willing to assist where necessary.
	So I would report everything to him, or some things that I had already done, I would go back to him and report back.

MR MASHABANE: So if the purpose of the SDU was to protect the community, why then didn't you inform the police or call the police to be of assistance to you?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: During those days even the police ...

CHAIRPERSON: We are well aware of the reasons for the establishment of the Self Defence Units.  You don't need to explain to us.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Thank you.

MR MASHABANE: And whilst you engaged in these activities, who did you report to?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I would report to comrade Themba Qaba.

MR MASHABANE: And the issue of - as you sit now, the acts or the offences which you have committed, do you regard them as being legal or unlawful?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter what he thinks?  It must be unlawful, what would your position be if he says he regarded it as lawful, then what is he going to get amnesty for?

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chair, what I wanted to establish was, is he now as he is sitting, does he show any remorse for the activities which ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is not relevant.

MR MASHABANE: In that Mr Chairman, this is the application on behalf of the applicant.

ADV GCABASHE: I was just going to say if you do want to lead him on his attitude towards the victims, if that is what you were trying to deal with, you can deal with that, but remorse itself is not a requirement for amnesty.  Just to clarify that.
	If you do want to do that, then use the opportunity to lead him on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we can help you there.  First let's hear what Mr Steenkamp has got to say.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MASHABANE

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't have any specific questions for the applicant at this stage.  My information is as well that although some names or some identities of the victims are known, they could not be traced at all Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: During the early 1990's, until the elections, you were part of the trauma that hit South Africa.  We, black people, were the victims of the apartheid system and certain things had to be done, like killing people, etc.
	In certain quarters some people say it was unnecessary, they still say so.  But nonetheless, these traumatic deeds took place and you were part of it in that particular area.  I understand that the area is now quite peaceful, although you are in prison at the moment, this is what I am informed.
	What is your view of the fact that there is a peaceful existence within the area now?  Are you happy about it?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I am happy for that situation.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a demand by nature of this country and nation, that we indeed start to live together like we should have 300 years ago until our lives were intruded upon.
	Should you, when you come out of prison, are you willing to contribute to building that nation as we think it should have been all these years?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I am prepared to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: You may not know this also, but during this transformation of our country, during this period, the gangsters, the crooks, have taken advantage of the situation.  What is your attitude towards them?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I do not know what to say about those people, because they also deserve to be forgiven and those who had violated other peoples' rights, they are supposed to be taken to court, and they are supposed to be sentenced for their offences.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you tolerate them within the community when you come out, in other words, is there a place for them in our country?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: No, I don't think there is a place for them, because those are the people who are harassing, violating the same communities that they live in.

CHAIRPERSON: There were some victims of the incidents in which you were involved, do you understand?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not too sure who they were or are, but nonetheless, perhaps you do know them.  Are you willing to talk to them to make your peace with them?