Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR RICHARD: Now, I am referring to the rectangular object, what would that be given to an operative for?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: To use as an ordinary explosive.  It can be used under any circumstance.

MR RICHARD: So it could be used as a part of a car bomb, as part of a device for demolishing a bridge?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, what sort of detonation mechanism would apply to it, would it be the ring or the ...

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: You can use various detonating mechanisms for it.  You could use electrical detonation, you could use mechanical detonation, you could use the mechanical fuses with detonators on it.

MR RICHARD: However, whichever mechanism of detonation one used, one could set it against your clock, whatever the time is, and determine that it would go off at precisely 5-00 pm this evening?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, that has nothing to do with the charge itself.

MR RICHARD: With the detonation?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: The detonation mechanism is actually what determines the timing.

MR RICHARD: Now with any one of the detonation mechanisms that you have listed, my question is can it be set to go off precisely at a given time in the future?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Some mechanisms can be set to go off at precise times, there are others that cannot be set off to go off at precisely a particular time.  In the case of ordinary limpets, because they were dependent on the heat of something, and depending on the ambient temperature, basically because they are mechanical and depending also on the quality of the metal and different batches would differ, you would find that that would have to cut through that metal and then it would go off.  It is very inexact, but it gives you a broad range.  Often you know, there were a range within this hour to that hour.  In the case of the electrical detonators, where they were set for a particular time, they would go off within the time given.

MR RICHARD: However with reference to this rectangular box, a limpet mine type detonation mechanism with the plate of metal which is to be cut through at a differing rate, that wouldn't apply?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: You could use it as well, yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.    So, the answer to the question is depending on the device, you could either set it to go off precisely at a future point in time or not?   The long objects with the oval end, what are they?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: They are also basically explosives that are encased, basically that is a mixture of TNT and RGX, inside of it, which means that they are more powerful than ordinary TNT of the same weight or equivalent.

MR RICHARD: Would they be referred to as a demolition?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Demolition charges?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, when it comes to the detonation mechanism, if my assumption is incorrect, please correct me, everything that we have said about the rectangular object applies?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, please ignore 68 and 69, just look at 70 and 71.  There we will see two of the rectangular, one of the rectangular objects on top of two of the longer objects?  Excuse me while I

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before my learned friend continues - I understand, well I think I understand where my learned friend is going with regard to the timing devices, but - and it is not for the purposes of this witness that he seeks information, but it is for the purposes of further cross-examination of another witness, I am sure, but now that he has the answers that he sought Chairperson, and that everything depends on the timing device that was used, it is really of no relevance now, I would submit, to question Mr Ismail on further explosive devices.

MR RICHARD: May I ask the question before we decide its relevance?  The fact that there are two of the longer objects, packed underneath the rectangular object, does that have any particular significance or not?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: None at all.

MR RICHARD: In other words, that is how they happen to be in that particular carrier bag?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, and I would suggest perhaps it was also perhaps more convenient to carry them in that way.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question regarding ordinance is without going into lengthy detail, from what we know from various hearings, is it correct to say that mortars, rockets, various explosive packages, detonation packs, handgrenades were all available?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: To whom?

MR RICHARD: Available, say to the operatives in Gaberone as at 1986?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And then by the same token, if as we heard yesterday, Mr McBride collected his own ordinance for himself and his operations, they would have been available to him too?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: If they were required for him, yew.

MR RICHARD: Simply so it may never be said that I didn't put the proposition to each applicant, I am going to allow you to examine an aerial photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Mr Richard, a large aerial photograph of the beach front area of Durban?

MR RICHARD: That is correct.   Thank you.  Now, it is an enlarged aerial photograph of the Durban beach front, Marine Parade area, taken towards the end of 1985 and on the one end of it, can you identify the Natal Command or can you identify anything at all?  On the left hand side of the photograph, can you identify what is Natal Command?  Have you examined the Natal Command?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could point it out, it might be easier, because we are not sure whether the photograph is the right way up or what the left or the right is.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Here we have the sea and that is east.  On the left hand side, we have the north and here on the northern edge of the photograph where the 10 is, we have Natal Command.  Do you observe the wooded area next to Natal Command?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I do.

MR RICHARD: The highway under construction and the road on the side where there are parked cars and in front where, despite the number of parked cars in other places, there are no parked cars?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  I think we can take it to the Committee to see.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: What was the question basically?

MR RICHARD: I will ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry at this stage, can we hand you back these photo's, 72 through to 76?

MR RICHARD: Yes, I will have, subject to Mr Dehal, make copies of them.  Thank you.   You were once upon a time, an Instructor.  How would you go about conducting a reconnaissance of the Natal Command from that photograph?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well Mr Chairperson, if I were to do reconnaissance of the Natal Command, firstly I would locate where the Natal Command was and then  depending on what the objective was, would make sure, move all around the area, check the surrounding area, find out everything that went on around it, determine entry and exit points to it, determine where there were weak points to it, determine who occupied it, get as much information about it as was required.

MR RICHARD: Now, when one observed that wooded area to the north of Natal Command, would it not be a fair proposition to make that taking into account that mortars were available, it was open to attack by mortar from that wooded area?