Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I will start by explaining the time device.  Here it's a device where a clock is being used.  You'll tune the clock according to the time that you want the explosive to go off, to explode.  The second one it's a mini-limpet mine where metal plates based on their sizes and the temperature of the day you can tune them according to the time that you want the explosive to explode.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't hear the beginning of that.  What is it that you can tune, what sort of device is it?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Mr Chairperson, I've started with the clock one.  The second one is a limpet mine where metal plates are used to set it on.  The third one, it's a remote where waves between two mini-radios or walkie talkies are used to transmit the wave that you want to trigger the mechanism with.  Here they were going to act as a backup to one another in the sense that based on our experience, it happens that at times things don't go according to the plans.  Here it was to make sure that if whatever happened not all of them will be faced with the same circumstances.  That was the purpose of having three to back up one another.

DR TSOTSI: In other words to make sure that they would detonate at the time they were set?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Sure, to make sure that that is going to happen according to the planned time.

CHAIRPERSON: What I understand then is you have a timing device which should determine if it goes off and then a limpet mine device but as a back up you have a remote control which you can then bring into play if the other two don't work?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Mr Chairperson, the purpose of the remote control was for effect that if it happened before the planned time where civilians were going to be around the placed that means this was to trigger it before many lives or any life was going to be around the placed explosives.  This was to be used to try and avoid at whatever cost if things goes beyond the planned time.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that if things happened in such a manner that those who attended the match dispersed earlier than the expected time, is that what you're saying?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Earlier on I did explain that we did foresee the possibility that people might leave before the end of the match and if that happened and life was going to be lost, that was the purpose for having a remote control.

CHAIRPERSON: But that would mean that you had to stay in the vicinity and keep watch?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: First, Chairperson, I started by minimising the time.  The time of placing the material and the time for the material to go off was within ten minutes and within the ten minutes was going to be in the position to maintain eyesight of the placed car with material.  This was to guard within the ten minutes from the time when I set it or when I tuned the clock device.

ADV SANDI: If the match came to an end at five, what would have happened?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: If the match was to come or to end five minutes before time the remote control was there for that purpose.  That means to avoid that people must move into that area.  It was going to tripped to explode.

DR TSOTSI: Are you saying - there's two questions I want to put to you - are you saying that you remained at or near the scene of the explosion until after the explosion?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: As I've indicated that based on my observation, unfortunately the people who happened to be the victims who died, they were the people who made me to trigger the material before any people could venture into the area.

DR TSOTSI: You haven't quite answered my question.  Were you in the area or were you nearby, could you - in a place where you could see what was happening in the vicinity of the bomb?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Based on the remote control, the only way to trigger the device is when you maintain the visual contact with the place where the material and the device or placed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well were you in visual contact with this car when it exploded?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Chairperson I was in the vicinity.

DR TSOTSI: We have evidence here that the explosion took place round about ten minutes past five.  What do you say to that?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I can't answer to that because the material I tuned it not only according my watch, like I have indicated we were concerned about the time, we were listening to the radio, the proceeding of the rugby match and when I left the material in the car I tuned it according to the match, my watch and the radio.

DR TSOTSI: When you went to park the car with the bomb you said that Harold got off before you reached the point, was he - you said in order to protect you, you said, was he armed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not armed, it was protection in the sense of if there was going to be a report needed, there was going to be somebody - was going to be in the position to give a report.

MR LANDMAN: A report to who, Mr Dumakude?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: First, as people on the scene we operate as a unit.  He was going to be in a position to inform the unit if there was anything that happened and it was going to go further than that until the M.K. command.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wasn't there to keep watch and report to you, he was there to see if anything went wrong and then go and tell the unit.  Is that what you're saying?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Chairperson, excuse me Chairperson, could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: What you have just said, I understand he wasn't there just to report to you if somebody was coming or something went wrong, he was there to watch and if anything went wrong to report to the unit and to M.K. command?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I might have viewers to the wrong way for providing security, security in the sense of information that means information of whatever happened there, it was not just going to end up with me.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand that to mean that if the bomb went off and killed you before the time for which it was tuned, he would have to go and give a report about what had happened?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I will agree with you on the basis that explosives are explosives and there's always the danger of things not going according to the plan therefore when you plan with explosive as I was trained you had to be sober minded, you had to have somebody next to you to remind you that you are dealing with something that is dangerous.  That's the first precautions of explosives.

DR TSOTSI: Look if before the explosion there was inside a police van or police van coming along, would Harold have been - had time to go and report to you that you know, the police are coming let's get away?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Chairperson, not to report to me, I was going to provide my own protection on the spot.  His presence like I indicate was to give the information back if things didn't go according to the plan.  This was part of the plan that we don't all go into the danger area, at least we must leave a chain of feedback.

ADV SANDI: How were you going to protect yourself, Mr Dumakude, were you armed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: As a trained person on a mission of that nature you plan according to the situation and yes, I was armed.

ADV SANDI: What weapon were you armed with?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The weapon to protect oneself I use a pistol which is a Makaroff.

ADV SANDI: And members of your unit were they also armed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not only members, it was myself in a sense that I was going to drive the car with the material and in case of roadblocks if we're all armed it was also going to create problems.  This went according to the plan that only the person that is going to drive the car will be the persons armed.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I don't understand why it should create problems if there was a roadblock if you were both armed?