Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-03

MR MAGADHLA: To an extent you are, but what I'm driving at is that we are talking about the Helderberg and as you have conceded that after the Helderberg incident there was some kind of an investigation even by yourselves.  Now, the popular suggestion and suspicion is that on that plane there was a dangerous cargo that was loaded from Taipei.  Now, that would have been cargo which would have had to do either with Armscor or Armscor subsidiaries.  The question is in the context of that incident, now you are saying there could have been individuals and there could have been agents and there could have been whoever, but I'm saying whoever it could have been, how could they have carried out, helped South Africa without having to use ships or aeroplanes?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Chairperson, the countries that helped South Africa and of which I was aware, in those countries there were very strict security measures.  Firstly to not reveal and make public the fact that a particular country helped us, it was handled in a very sensitive way.  In those cases their security people, the country that was helping us, their security personnel and our own security people co-operated very closely to deal with the freight or cargo issue between those two countries to deal with it in a very safe manner.  And that's why in most cases, almost all the cases, those consignments were consolidated in the country and then a chartered ship would be sent to go and fetch the consignment.  If it could be flown then a chartered plane would be sent to go and fetch the consignment.  I can't think for one moment that where the governments of other countries were involved, that either their government or our government would have allowed it being placed unlawfully on a passenger plane.

MS PATTA: Were you aware of the amendment to the dangerous goods legislation in terms of aircraft in 1986, that according to that if armourments were to be conveyed, Armscor would be, and particularly Armscor's procurement services overseas, would be the person to decide whether or not it is too dangerous, in addition that the legislation made provision for certain exemptions in terms of national interest?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: I am aware of the amendment to the legislation.  I never interpreted the legislation as giving Armscor an unfettered right to convey dangerous goods or substances on passenger planes.  I did not see that legislation as not being subordinate to IATA rules.  The way I saw it is that when charter planes were used, the legislation was such that the airspace covered by those planes, or the countries to whom the airspace belonged had to be asked permission if armourments were conveyed across their airspace.  That is in connection with chartered flights.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying that permission was not asked?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Permission was not asked for other countries, in other words, if we used charter flights we did not request permission from neighbouring countries that there was military ammunitions on board the plane.

UNKNOWN: But that is in contravention of international rules.

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: That is how I interpreted the amendment.

MS PATTA: When Somchem needed to procure stuff for its work, how would they go about it?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Once again, I did not myself actually do the procurement, there was a procurement section and Somchem had its own procurement section and Armscor had its own procurement section.  And the ways in which they would have done it, well, I can't give you a firsthand account of that, what I can say is that when the cargo was to be shipped, I would have been involved.  If it was a commercial freight the sender would have sent the cargo, it would be a free on-board transaction.  If it was dangerous freight which had anything to do with sanctions busting, then we were tasked with chartering a ship or to find room on board a ship to bring this freight to South Africa.

MS PATTA: So that would work for all the various companies of Armscor, that's how it would work.  In 1987 Somchem was producing Ammonium Perchlorate, which was used in the manufacture of solid rocket fuels and at some point, am I correct in saying that there were extensions done to Somchem because you needed to increase the capacity of Somchem to produce APC?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes, what is the question?

MS PATTA: Am I correct in saying that there were extensions done to Somchem because you needed to increase its capacity to produce Ammonium Perchlorate?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: It may be, I don't know.

MS PATTA: You're not aware of Somchem having extensions done and the plant shutting down temporarily while these extensions were done?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: I was aware of the fact that they manufactured it, I wasn't aware of the fact that they had a shortage and that Armscor was instructed to obtain addition supplies, so no, I was not aware.

MS PATTA: I wasn't asking you if Armscor was instructed to obtain additional supplies, I was asking you if you though Somchem had shut down.  But it's interesting that you make that leap, that Armscor was instructed, that you're saying that they weren't instructed to obtain additional supplies, it's an interesting leap that you've made there.  So you're not aware of procuring any Ammonium Perchlorate for Somchem in 1987?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Armscor may be so aware, I personally am not aware.

MS PATTA: But you were at shipping, you were in procurements?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes.

MS PATTA: You knew of the stuff coming in?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: I can't recall that in 1987 or in that period that I was involved in importing this product or to issue clearances for such a product into South Africa.

MS PATTA: Well, what sort of products were coming in in 1987?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: As I said just now, we dealt with about 20 shipments or consignments per day and very few of those consisted of dangerous cargo.  If a ship came into Durban and Cape Town Harbours with dangerous cargo or freight, I didn't always know what exactly this commodity was.  I would know that it was a class 1 or class 2 commodity, in the shipping terms for what it was, such as explosives, class 1 or whatever, but the exact names of these explosives that I was not aware of.

MS PATTA: But you knew that they were explosives?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: Yes, obviously.

MS PATTA: You knew that they were and you - so you knew that we were exporting, bringing in chemical additives used in the manufacture of rocket fuel?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: If you're saying that I was aware that we were exporting fuel for rockets, I have to say, no.  I was aware of the fact that certain substances were imported, but what the exact application was, I wasn't quite sure.

UNKNOWN: When you are saying raw materials, are you saying raw materials for use in rocket fuel?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: No, I'm talking about chemicals.  I'm not a scientist, so I can't really make sense of a particular chemical, when that was imported I wouldn't know what the application of that would be.

MS PATTA: But you're saying that you were aware that certain chemicals were coming in, used in the manufacture of rocket fuels that were explosives?

JOHAN LODEWIKUS STEYL: I am aware of certain chemical substances which entered the country by ship.  What the application was I don't know.

UNKNOWN: I would just like to go the legislation from 1986, you said that it made provision for the fact that you need not notify neighbouring countries when you were overflying their airspace with dangerous cargo?