Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would then not ask this question.  I will accept that.  To conclude this issue, could you just tell the Committee, did you after the initial instruction from Chris Hani of July 1990, did you report back to Chris Hani or any other command structure in the ANC about what you did during this period 1990 to 1992?

MR ZWANE: Reporting on what?

MR HATTINGH: You had received instructions or orders from ANC command.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Chris Hani told you to ensure that Self Defence Units were to be set up.  The question is did you go back to anybody and specifically perhaps to Chris Hani himself, to give a progress report on how you are going about setting up or complying with these orders?  Is that the question Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR ZWANE: To answer that question, I would say after having met Chris Hani we came back and set up the Self Defence Units.  After which we started liaising with J.J. Mabena, we no longer went back to Chris Hani.
	But instead we reported whatever was happening to J.J. Mabena because he was at the upper rank.

MR HATTINGH: And what was J.J. Mabena's position at that time?

MR ZWANE: He was Chairman of the ANC in the area, also leading COSATU in the region.

ADV SANDI: Mr Zwane,  when you left Mr Hani that is after the meeting that you had with him, was it part of the understanding between yourself and him that you were going to come back to him, that is Mr Hani, to give a report back as to the progress?

MR ZWANE: I don't quite understand the question, would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he under the impression that you were going to come back to him to give a progress report, that is Chris Hani himself?

MR ZWANE: No, he didn't say that.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it then, do I understand you correctly then that this whole process was in the hands of the Committee now, they would make decisions and expect the operatives to follow it?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Mr Gushu at the time, 1990 to 1992, did you meet him, did you know him?

MR ZWANE: Mr Gushu came here and became one of the comrades, that is how I knew him.

MR HATTINGH: Did he attend your Special Committee meetings?

MR ZWANE: No, he never attended such meetings.

MR HATTINGH: Just to put matters into perspective, when did Mr Mkhwanazi come onto the scene in these events, approximately when?  There were certain developments with regard to the Black Cats and when they were sort of ousted and there were those public meetings to oust them and then the Special Committee formed.  When did Mr Mkhwanazi come onto the scene?

MR ZWANE: When Mr Mkhwanazi arrived here, the Special Committee was already in place.  I think it was round about 1991.  I am not quite sure of the dates, and he arrived here around 1991.  That is if I still remember very well.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to the instructions from your Special Committee for the assassination of Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane, it would appear from the documentation that the instructions or the decision was made by your Committee and the person was then killed only some extensive time thereafter, at least a month or two months thereafter.
	Why this delay while the people were known in this area, you knew where they were living?  Why not were they immediately executed?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, can this witness answer that, and didn't we get an explanation whether we accept it or not is another matter, from the person who committed the crime?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, my submission would be that this Committee had a very real interest in having their orders executed, and if there was such an inordinate delay, perhaps the witness can assist us by telling ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... they made enquiries and said well, maybe ...

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, could you just assist the Committee.  Your Special Committee made decisions for the assassination of two people, Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya, but it would appear that there were in both instances, an extensive delay in the execution of your orders.  Did you make enquiries about the delay?
	I mean at the time there was a tremendous fighting and conflict, your orders were not executed immediately.  Did you make enquiries?

MR ZWANE: No, we did not because we had not discussed the time factor.  We didn't say to them that they should kill him before the end of the week or the end of the month.
	We just indicated to them that such and such a person is problematic and therefore must be eliminated.  It was up to them how long it took them to carry out the instruction.

MR HATTINGH: Okay, then the second last issue I would like to deal with is the annexures to the second statement, that is Annexure A and A1 which you will find on pages 15 to 19.
	Did you assist in the compilation of this Annexure A and A1?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Would it be correct to say that you do not know the details of any other incidents which you can now remember and which you can add to this list?

MR ZWANE: No, I cannot add, not now.  Maybe if I was given time to go back and read through this again, maybe I will be in a position to remember other things.

MR HATTINGH: But at the time that this list was compiled and where you assisted, even at that time you could not remember any further incidents?

MR ZWANE: Yes, there are some other things that I could not remember, but I think I can be of help here, such as saying for example yesterday, we also remembered that there is one incident that was not included here, the death or the killing of Themba.  I have just forgotten his surname, and he used to be called Abe as well.  He died and on looking at this, I realised that his name does not appear here.
	The arrival of Inkatha, driving in a bus where a number of people were killed, these are some of the things.  There are many other incidents that were not included here, not because we didn't want to but because we couldn't remember them at the time.

MR HATTINGH: The incident where you allege Zwane fired several shots at the coffin and or the body of the person at a particular funeral, will it be correct to say that that incident sort of sparked off the decision that Jwi Zwane was to be assassinated?

MR ZWANE: That is not correct.  That is not the one incident that sparked off or inspired the decision for his assassination.

MR HATTINGH: Lastly I would like to put to you per instructions of the families and the next of kin of victims, that Jwi Zwane did not take part and he was not the person causing all the trouble in this area, and that there was no need for him to be assassinated.

MR ZWANE: I don't know whether you are asking me or just stating?

MR HATTINGH: I am stating.

CHAIRPERSON: He is stating it and we are inviting a comment if you want to.

MR ZWANE: What you are saying is not correct.  As far as I know, Jwi Zwane was the one who was in the middle of this conflict.  For example before his death, there were people, many of them, who were found dead and mutilated.
	Their body parts were missing and later on we discovered that Jwi Zwane was the leader of the Black Cats.  I am also of the opinion that those who are going to testify after me, will bear me out on this one.  After his death, as an indication that he was leader of the boys, the boys got angry and the violence escalated.
	Thereafter the leadership position was taken over by Chris Ngwenya.  After the death of Chris Ngwenya the same patter followed, violence exacerbated and subsided thereafter.  After their deaths, violence did not die completely.  Violence continued, albeit on a lower scale until this whole thing came to an end around 1994.