bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you all.  I was going to say what grieves me about these incidents is that when somebody loses a family member, being sent up and down, not knowing whether, if the member of your family is at hospital or has already died.  You go up and down until you find out from newspapers.
 This causes great grief but you are special people because even though we've gone through all these experiences we can, we are even able to love if somebody cracks a joke.  We would not be implying that we've taken lightly what has happened to us but it's a God given gift that we are able to laugh even though we are so grieved.
 It's God's way of making lighter what is so heavy in our hearts.  We thank God for this gift.  We also thank you that in your pain you are able to come here without bitterness and now as we heard that as one of you testified that the perpetrators of this violence should come to the Truth Commission so that there is reconciliation.  We thank you very much.  Knowing as we said that most people that went through the most pain was the youth.  The blood that was shed was watering the grounds of freedom, such that all that has happened did not happen in vain.
 Today we are able to see this nation as a people that is in freedom.  We thank you very much.  We know that your pain is not lighter but I'd like you to know that you talked to people who empathise with you.  May the Lord strengthen you and comfort you and may His Holy Spirit be the bandage of your wounds.  We have listened to your requests.  We will try our best to help you.  Thank you.
 We are going to adjourn until 9 o'clock.  Commissioner Finca has suggested last night that we should please ask you to be seated by half past eight so that we can start on the dot of 9 o'clock.  I would just want also to say a very big thank you to the police who are providing security.  These are new things that we are able to thank the police because it was very difficult during the past times.  We thank you very much.  We thank you all at the back and the whole place.  Let us get up.
 The witnesses can leave.  Please wait at the back.  Thank you.   ... end of Tape 6, side A ...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much general.  Excuse me general and your colleagues, you would be available if we resumed at 2 o'clock for a short period when, I mean, our colleagues might want, my colleagues might want to address questions for clarification etc.

MARIUS OELSCHIG: As you wish Your Grace.  As you wish, we are at your disposal.

CHAIRPERSON: We, I think we should take our lunch break.  We might try and maybe come earlier, a little earlier, say quarter to two instead of two o'clock.  Let's please stand and you know our - order please.  Nobody should go out there until the witnesses have left the hall.  You know that this is our practice, so please, and will you kindly leave the headsets on the chairs.  Please do not take them out.  They are going to assault you.  Order.  Thank you.  ... end of Tape 4, side B ...

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 3 - 11 SEPTEMBER 1996

CHAIRPERSON: Could we rise.  Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Your Grace I wish to report to you that at lunchtime I was phoned by General van der Bank who says that he was listening through the radio and heard that his name was mentioned amongst those people who were supposed to testify.  He says that he did not receive the invitation because the invitation was sent to the SANDF offices and we didn't realise that he had retired from the SANDF.  He wants it to be placed on record that he supports the process of the Truth Commission, that he is fully behind what we are doing to establish the truth, that he is available to come before us as soon as we have given him notice, that he was listening to the submission by General Oelschig and he fully agrees with all that General Oelschig has said.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, that's a great help.  What we will now do is we will ask the three officers of the CDF just to make very short inputs and then  [and you listen]  I will limit my colleagues here to three questions each because we then, I want us to go on up to half past two when we will then take, we will ask the former Attorney General to make his submission and then we want to complete the testimony of the last eight witnesses that we have for today.  My hope is that we would be able to finish at perhaps 4 o'clock or so.  So thank you very much.  May I, I have not done this, I think we want to say we welcome you, all three of you, all four of you, we welcome you and we appreciate the fact that you have come forward to assist the Commission.  Thank you very much.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 3 - 11 SEPTEMBER 1996
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Those of you who are not here to listen, you are not forced to be here.  If you want to talk you can go outside, I'm not going to stop you but when you are here inside, because as you can hear these are very sensitive and deep issues that we are hearing about.  Thank you very much, we will probably be coming in terms of the questions to you.  I don't know whether either of you, no, the other two gentlemen.  Order please.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 3 - 11 SEPTEMBER 1996
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-11

BONGANI FINCA: Your Grace, I know that I'm very forward because I have not been elected.  Your Grace, we would like to thank you very much for having spent these three days with us.  You do not know how much dignity it gives us to have you in our midst.  Even though we fight with you at times, we love you and we respect you and we are very happy that you are in our midst.  I will also thank Denzil Potgieter and Dumisa Ntsebeza for the wonderful work that they have done for they have really been engaged in hard work.  They have been reading their papers and they have been acquainting themselves very well with the matters that have been coming up.  We thank Dr Mabula in abstention but I will convey that later to her tonight.

CHAIRPERSON: Please let us stand up.  There is something we did not do right from the beginning.  We were supposed to remember those that have passed away and that is Nosipho Komxani.  Maybe we can have a moment of silence and just remember her and take her to God's hands.  Lord you bless us, You bless all your children.  Please send down Your Holy Spirit to be the oil to our wounds, the balm to heal broken hearts.  Please be with us as we go home as individuals.  Please protect us from accidents.  Please bless our nation.  Please bless our leaders.  Bless us all Lord, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.  
 Thank you.  Can the victims and the witnesses leave first.  Please!  Please!  Please!  You are going to go straight to hell if you take the earphones.  Please just leave these on your chairs.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  I want to thank you for having come.  Mrs Chumgwa you have lost a son, you have lost a loved one in the incident.  The rest of you Ms Hlekani, Mr Duda, Mr Blom you have been personally present there, you at least have survived to tell the story to us today, you still bear the marks of what happened there on the day, fortunately you are with us today, and you can also enjoy some of the fruits of the struggle that people went through to come to where we are today.  Mrs Chumgwa unfortunately has lost a son in that process but that is the kind of price, it reminds us of the high price that we had to pay to get to where we are.  But thank you for coming.  We have noted your testimony.  We have noted all of your requests and we are grateful that you have actually come and share your testimony with us today.  Thank you very much.
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BONGANI FINCA: I wish to announce that we are going to be breaking for tea and we are asking Commissioners to take their seats at 11 o'clock sharp, and people to take their seats at five to 11.  We are going to be taking the most sensitive part of this hearing where we are going to allow Brigadier Gqozo to come to the hall and give his testimony.  Order please, I think this is very important.
 I wish to make an appeal.  I come from this area, I know how sensitive the part that we are entering now in this hearing is.  I know how strongly people feel about it.  But I wish to make an appeal that for our work as the Commission to take place in a dignified manner we will appeal for maximum order and maximum restraint from the crowd that is here in this hall.  You will not be doing that for Brigadier Gqozo, but you will be doing that for the Commission.  You will be doing that for all the people of South Africa who want to see this process happen in a dignified and orderly manner.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

VUYELWA CORRIEN CHUMGWA: First of all I am going to talk specifically about myself.  I am going to tell you what it is that I need and then I will refer to the others.  What I request if I could get help and if the Commission has the strength and the authority as a woman who was supported by this child I never went short of anything, my son would support me.  In his endeavour to give me everything when he passed away he actually did not have a home, I was staying with people.  His wish was that he would build a house for me.  I have divorced his father and his wish was that I would have a home and he would educate his three siblings.
 I want to say something else, the perpetrator of all this, because I don't know who it is, I have forgiven him.  He did so much damage that I have forgiven him, it is the Lord that will deal with him.  The Lord will deal with him.  Whoever he is, what he did is just so huge and scary that I have forgiven him, it is only the Lord that can deal with him.  I don't want to put a burden on the Commission because we never knew that this would happen, that these cases would be investigated.  Even the way we were treated after this, the man spoke on the radio, he said what he did at the Bisho Massacre he would do again.  The Lord will deal with him.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much Ma'am.  Did you think of
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pursuing civil claims?  Was there a court hearing after the incidents?

VUYELWA CORRIEN CHUMGWA: I went to the attorneys.  After there was a memorial service with Dullah Omar in King Williamstown.  He then said that the people who had lost their loved ones should go to the attorney.  I went to Smith and Tabatha, when I got there I found two women.  These women said that how are they going to start a case that transpired in 1992, it's too long ago. I said to them 1992 is so recent you don't know.  I left them and I walked out.
 I went back to the attorneys in August.  I was at a funeral in Brakpan when I got a phone call from my niece.  She said that I must come back quickly because some people had got some compensation.  Around the 20th of August I went to the lawyer, I talked to Smith personally.  Smith said that there is no more money.  He said that the money they had received from the Defence Department was finished.  He said, however, that he would try.  He took my details, my address and everything and told me that I must wait.  I am still waiting.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.  The Commission has noted where the process is and we will stay in touch with you.  I will hand you back to the Chairperson.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Hlengiwe.  Thank you Mrs Chumgwa.
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much to all of you.  You are the last people who are giving us evidence in this hearing of the Bisho Massacre.  We are closing up now.
 Thank you very much for your patience.  I am sure that your patience today and yesterday and the things that you tolerated perhaps if I were in your place I would not have been able to tolerate all these things.  You underwent a lot of pain in these past two days.  Thank you very much.
 I would like to say that the Commission has endeavoured after the first hearing at Bisho to liaise with the attorneys that are handling these claims.  We hope that the people who have not been successful with their claims would be helped now that we have liaised with the attorneys.  Those people who did not put forward claims I think that as a Commission we will take that up as well.
 I want to say to all of you, and all those who gave evidence here in these past two days, and those who gave evidence in the first hearing at Bisho, even though there is nothing much we can do, because we put forward your requests to the President, even though as a Commission there is nothing much we can do, at the end of the day we would like to say as a Commission that our respect for you and also to say as a Commission that you will always be the brave 
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people of this area.  You are the heroes.  People who died in Bisho in 1992 caused that the Codesa would start again.
 Thank you very much.  We salute you. 
 This is the end of the hearing of the Bisho Massacre.  I do not want to delay you.  I would like to thank the Mayor and also the Council members.  First of all I would like to thank the Mayor for attending the proceedings and also the deputy mayor.  We thank you very much for having granted us this facility.  We thank the South African Police for the security that they have provided for this hearing, especially today when things became very tense. 
 I would like to thank the technicians, the interpreters, the media persons.  I would like to thank our own staff members and members of the panel.  
 I thank all of you that have been left behind.  Thank you for your patience during the second hearing here in Bisho.  I now close the hearing.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MR POTGIETER: The next witness is Dr Antonie Gildenhuys  who was the chairman of the National Peace Secretariat at the relevant time and I ask him to please take the stand.  ANTONIE GILDENHUYS:   (sworn states)

MR POTGIETER: As I have said earlier you were the Chairperson of the National Peace Secretariat during September of 1992, which is the period that we are looking at, we are looking at the incident that happened in Bisho on the 7th of September 1992 which has commonly become known as the Bisho Massacre, and we have invited you to come and to testify about your particular experiences on that day and leading up to that particular day and the role that you were playing.  So we are glad that you could make it, and we are glad that you are here.  I am going to hand over to you without any more ado for you to take us through your testimony.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much. Advocate Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Dr Gildenhuys can I ask you a sort-of awkward question which somehow will require that you express your personal opinion on the subject, are you aware of the allegation or charge that the gap was actually a trap?
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DR GILDENHUYS: I was aware, or I am aware of that allegation.

MR SANDI: Let me put the question differently.  There is a theory going around that the gap was actually a trap, do you know about that theory?

DR GILDENHUYS: Purely guessing, and let me underline it's guessing, I think that everybody just forgot about that gap, they deployed the soldiers, when the marchers saw the opening I think they thought here's our chance and in all probability on the spur of the moment they decided to enter into, rather to go through the gap and enter into the Ciskei.  It's my personal opinion, I'm not basing it on anything.  I've heard about the trap theory, I can't say whether it's correct or not.

MR SANDI: Thank you Sir.  Thank you Chairman.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  Dr Gildenhuys thank you very much for coming and making yourself available with all the other demands.  We know that you were not available on the previous occasion to make it due to some other commitments but we are very grateful that you could make the time this time round to come to us and to bring your perspective to us.  We appreciate it very much.  We have had up to today four days of hearing of testimony and submissions into this matter which still puzzles us to a large extent, but thank you for bringing your perspective to bear on it.

DR GILDENHUYS: I thank you Mr Chair.  Last time I was unfortunately overseas when the sitting occurred, I apologise for that, and I wish you everything of the best in dealing with this great tragedy in our society.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much and safe home.
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DR GILDENHUYS: Thank you.  May I be excused?

MR POTGIETER: Certainly.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MR POTGIETER: I ask for absolute silence and for order in the proceedings.  Can I repeat that this panel sitting here today won't be making any findings on any issue in any of the many issues which are raised in the event that we are looking at.  We are receiving testimony and submissions from all of the interested parties and findings will eventually be made once all the facts are available and once there has been full investigation.
 The next witness is Brigadier O J Gqozo, and I would ask him to take the stand.  
 Good morning Brigadier Gqozo, welcome here.  The Briefer will switch on the microphone.  You are accompanied by your legal representatives.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: We have had Advocate Sally Collett appearing at the Commission at a previous occasion in Bisho when you were indisposed and you were not able to come to that hearing, so I place her on record.  On your left I assume is an attorney?

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir.

MR POTGIETER: Perhaps we can get his name on record too.
I am told it's Mr Ghole.  Good morning to you as well, and good morning Advocate Collett.
 Brigadier you have been requested to attend this session of the Commission hearings which relates to the 
incident which happened in Bisho on the 7th of September 1992 which is commonly referred to as the Bisho Massacre.  You were then the Head of State in the then Ciskei and for that purpose the Commission was of the mind that you are able to make material submissions and bring relevant evidence to bear on our investigation of that particular incident.  It is to that end that we are happy to see that you are able to attend today and I want to once again welcome you and I would hand over to you.  I see that you have prepared a written submission to assist us, but I am going to ask you to take us through that.  So I hand over to you.  Brigadier just before you actually take us through there I am going to ask you to take the oath, and we will be taking your submission under oath.  So I would ask you to rise please.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MR POTGIETER: Would you now like to proceed and take us through your submission.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

BONGANI FINCA: Chairperson thank you.  I just want to, from the side of the office in East London, to thank specially the office of Mr Roelf Meyer for all the assistance that you have given us, your secretary has given us in preparing for your appearance and for their patience when things were not going right.
 Chairperson if you will indulge me I just want to leave a last thought for this delegation, that we are engaged in a very painful process of trying to reach reconciliation for our country and we are seriously concerned and perhaps your submission may touch on this, on how is it possible that reconciliation will take place if this country continues to hear the same denials which we have heard, the same selective choosing of facts, the same propaganda which we had under apartheid?  How is it possible that the victims will be led through the road of reconciliation?  One senses a lot of frustration at this moment, but of course that does not detract from the appreciation that I feel for the assistance that we have received from these offices.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  We will now adjourn for tea for 15 minutes.  Thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: Before I ask Tiny Maya to announce the names of all the witnesses that we will hear now, can I just repeat a call on you when you leave the hall not to take the headphone sets with you, but to leave it on the chair when you go out.  Can I please ask you cooperation in that regard.  Leave it behind when you leave.  Thank you.  Tiny would you announce the witnesses please.

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  This morning I am going to bring forward names of victims of this human rights violation hearing in this Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  I will name the victims in chronological order.  We will hear seven victims this morning.  Bushy Petros Vantyu, he will talk on behalf of himself, attempted murder.  Ellis Nombeko Mfenqe will talk on behalf of her late son Monde Ben Mfenqe. Bongiwe Gloria Skepu will talk on behalf of Zanethema Skepu, the late.  Nongaliphi Lenha Nzilane will talk on behalf of the late Ndodana Harold Nzilane.  Kelvin Nokhumzi Khundulu will speak on behalf of the late Sipho Khundulu.  And Lawrence Mangoma will speak on behalf of Mbulelo Mangoma.  And Delila Matshamba will speak on behalf of the late Mxoleli Matshamba.  These people either were injured or passed away on the Bisho Massacre in September 1992.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much Tiny.  Can I ask you to call the first witness and to swear him in.
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MR SANDI: Mr Chairperson I call forward Bushy Petros Vantyu, Alice Mfenqe, Bongiwe Skepu and lastly Nongaliphi Lenha Nzilane.

BUSHY PETROS VANTYU: (sworn states)

ALICE NOMBEKO MFENQE: (sworn states)

BONGIWE GLORIA SKEPU: (sworn states)

NONGALIPHI LENHA NZILANE: (sworn states)
Mr Chairperson all the victims have been sworn in.

MR POTGIETER: The testimony of Busy Petros Vantyu will be facilitated by Advocate Sandi.  The testimony of Alice Nombeko Mfenqe will be facilitated by Ms Maya.  Bongiwe Gloria Skepu will be facilitated by June Crichton, and Nongaliphi Lenha Nzilane will be facilitated by Ms Maya.   I hand over to you in that sequence, thank you.

MR SANDI: Mr Vantyu before this Commission tell us what happened to you on the 7th of September 1992 at Bisho when you were a member of the crowd that was marching into Bisho. According to you on that day an attempt to murder you was committed in that when members of the Ciskei Defence Force opened fire you were also shot at.  We also understand from your testimony, your written testimony which you prepared yourself, that you intend to give the Commission some light, some information on a number of aspects which you think are relevant when the Commission is looking into this incident.  Now I hand over to you Mr Vantyu.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Vantyu.  Any other questions, not?  Thank you.
 Well it just remains for me to thank you for coming and testifying and to thank you for reminding us that it was flesh and blood, it was people who were involved in this incident because it's so easy if one listens to the politicians, if one reads the Commission reports, it's statistics.  It tells you nothing of what actually happened.  We thank you for bringing that back to us and for demonstrating that even now, even up to this stage you are still very, very deeply affected by what happened.  We thank you for that.
 We have taken to heart your appeals, the appeals that you have made, the various points that you have raised.  At least the positive thing about this Commission's involvement in this incident is that a lot of the unsatisfactory ways in which this incident was handled before can be addressed through the process of the Commission.  And there is at least a bigger probability of doing justice and undoing some of the injustices that flowed from this incident.  We thank you for coming and we wish you well.  Thank you very much.
 We shall take the luncheon adjournment at this stage, and we shall reconvene at 14:10.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: No Sir, there was no reason, a man only gets demoted if he commits a crime, he is found guilty and then sentenced.  That's the only way in the military way EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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that a man is demoted.

MR SANDI: I thank you Mr van der Bank.  I am not sure why you have a difficulty to answer this question.  Anyway I can proceed to the last question.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes.

MR SANDI: Do you know, a number of names have been mentioned to this Commission, both today and last time when this Commission started looking into the Bisho massacre, one of those names is Mr Antonie Nieuwoudt, do you perhaps know this person?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman yes I know him, and as I have said maybe, I cannot speak on his behalf, I think maybe Colonel Chris Nel can give you more insight on that.  I have got no detail on that.

MR SANDI: What was his role, was he part of the military as well?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman no he was not part of the military. He was paid by the government and his job was that with the government, he was not part and parcel of the military.  He stood outside the military.

MR SANDI: What was he part of?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I think they called them at that stage the Ciskei Intelligence Service, I am under correction.

MR SANDI: I did not pick up that, Ciskei?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I am sorry?

MR SANDI: He was the Ciskei Intelligence Service?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: He was paid by the Ciskei government not by the military.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Sandi.  Thank you General.  Thank you for coming and for testifying and bringing your EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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perspectives to bear on this incident.  We have noted what 
you have said, and although I don't foresee it at this stage there might be a possibility of raising some more issues with you in due course, but for the moment you are excused from further attending the proceedings.  Thank you very much.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

BONGANI FINCA: General Viktor, General van der Bank and Superintendent Raymond Simms have responded positively to our invitation that they come before the Commission today, and they are present to take the stand individually.
Sir I am not sure whether Brigadier Ngcobo is in the hall.   Chairperson then I would wish the record to show that Brigadier Ngcobo is also present and has responded favourably to our invitation.  I propose that we take the submissions as per the order of proceedings proposed and I would request that you bear in mind Sir that there are still three more witnesses who are to testify as victims at the end of their submissions.  Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Reverend Finca.  I have noted that and I intend proceeding with the submissions as it's indicated on our programme and I'm hoping that we will get the indulgence and the cooperation of our fellow panellists to enable us to deal with the three victim witnesses that have been standing over.  I then call General J J Viktor to the stand.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: (sworn states)

MR POTGIETER: General good afternoon and welcome to the proceedings, which as has been indicated to you deals with the incident that happened at Bisho, the second of the two marches on the 7th of September 1992 which the Commission is dealing with at this stage, and has requested you in that
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regard to come and to make a submission about what you know about the incident.  So without any more ado I am going to hand over to you, and I'm going to ask you to take us through your submission.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: First of all I want to tell the Commission that I'm actually Afrikaans speaking but at the time we drew up a memorandum with the then Attorney General of Ciskei, and that is in English, so I will carry on with that Sir.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

WITNESS: I don't know who lost this docket because this docket was not available, because whenthis guy went there and then he told the police that he was assaulted by myhusband. My husband stabbed him, and this guy said my husband was trying totake his watch, but my husband's docket wasn't there.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.

MRS GCABASHE: I've got a question ... (incomplete -end of Side A, Tape 1) ... we all sympathise with you. We want to encourageyou as well as in your pain. We sympathise with you and your family. We shallwait and see whether we can actually help your or assist you in your wishes,but you should know that the Commission doesn't have the authority or the powers.We will have to tell the President, come up with suggestions or recommendationsas to how to help you, then at the end of the day he is the one who passes thisto the Parliament, and it's the Parliament that makes the final decision asto what assistance we should give you if you are going to get any assistance.
We thank you for being present. We ask the Lord to anoint yourwounds and also help you in your difficulties. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Mohali, just let me make sure youcan hear me, and that I can hear you. Can you hear me through the earphones?

GLADYS MOSIDI MOHALI: Yes, I can hear you, Sir.

COMMISSIONER: All right. To help me, and to help theCommission, and also to help the people who are here to hear your story, I wouldask you to try and speak as loudly as possible, because everybody wants to hearyou. May I, on behalf of the Commission, welcome you very warmly to this hearing.You have not one, but two very distressing and sat stories to tell, which involvedyour two sons, Bokile and Christopher, and we're going to listen to that ina moment. It's a very heavy story, but you are amongst friends, and we willhear you and we will sympathise with you as you tell that story. Before youstart will you please stand so that you can take the oath?

GLADYS MOSIDI MOHALI: (Sworn, States)

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mrs Mohali,you have been sitting and waiting for your turn, and it can make one very nervous,but this is not a dentist's room, not even a doctor's room, it's a Commissionappointed by the President to hear your story, and I hope that you will be veryrelaxed as you tell it, as much as it is possible to be under the circumstances.I am going to try and help you to tell that story, and I may well have somequestions for you, but first tell us your story, tell us who you are, whereyou come from something of your background, and then tell us first about thedeath of your son, Bokile, and when we have finished there you can tell us aboutthe torture of your son, Christopher. We would like to hear from you now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: That is the last witness that we will heartoday. We will be meeting again tomorrow morning at 9.00 am, and tomorrowwill be the final day of evidence. We will have slightly less people givingevidence tomorrow. Today we had 13 people, I think tomorrow we'll probably have11 people. We will finish slightly earlier because we have to leave to returnto the various places that we are going to. Thank you very much for being withus today. You are most welcome to join us tomorrow, and to hear the witnesseswho will be giving evidence tomorrow. Could we please stand while the remainingwitnesses leave the room.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1996/11/04
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to call Drs Mark Bletcher and Neil Myburgh.  Mr Ntsebeza, would you do the swearing in of the two witnesses.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Ms Chairperson.  I am taking it that both of you will be testifying.

MARK BLETCHER: (sworn states)

NEIL MYBURGH: (sworn states)

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, the witnesses had been sworn in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton will be facilitating.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  I'd like to welcome you once again here Dr Myburgh and Dr Bletcher and thank you very much indeed for coming.
 You have given us a written submission.  Do you plan to read it or speak to it?

NEIL MYBURGH: I won't be reading the whole thing.

MARY BURTON: Okay, thank you.  Just go ahead then thanks.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MARY BURTON: Mr Finye, are you happy to speak English or do you want to hear Xhosa on the translation?

JOHN FINYE: Xhosa.

MARY BURTON: Can you hear me well now in the Xhosa translation?  I am going to ask you please to swear the oath.

JOHN FINYE: (Duly sworn, states).

MARY BURTON: Thank you, please sit down.  Mr Finye, you have somebody who has accompanied you here.  Is that person going to speak, is it a member of your family?  You can keep them on and then you wait, then you will just hear the translation.  The person who is with you, is it a friend or a member of your family?

JOHN FINYE: This person who is here with me is a witness, an eye witness. She was also present and I would also be speaking about her.

MARY BURTON: And will she be speaking as well?

JOHN FINYE: If it becomes necessary, because some of the things she knows more than I do.

MARY BURTON: Perhaps then we will ask her now to swear the oath, so that we don't waste time later on.  She will have to put the ear-phones on and have the microphone in front of her. Can you hear me well now in Xhosa?
 She will be speaking in Xhosa. Please will you stand then to take the oath?

RUTH KEBISELA: (Duly sworn, states).

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary. Glenda Wildschut will now be leading the questions.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Afternoon, Mr Finye.  Are you comfortable, can you hear me through your ear-phones, the translation through your ear-phones?

JOHN FINYE: I can hear, yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mr Finye, you will be talking about your son and an incident that happened in 1985, when he was 17. Please go ahead and tell us about ...

JOHN FINYE: 1986.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: 1986, quite right.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Before we call on Reverend John Freeth to be our next witness, may I recognise Professor Ras Altman from the School of Business Studies at the Peninsula Technikon and lecturer Mr Charles Manual in our midst.  Welcome to our proceedings.
 Could we ask the audience please to observe order.  I  will ask Dumisa Ntsebeza to swear you in and then Mary Burton will be your facilitator of your evidence.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: It has nothing to do with the previous speaker, but it is a rotten chair.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MR NTSEBEZA: The witness has been sworn in Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Good morning again Mr Freeth and welcome.  Thank you very much for coming to present a submission before the Commission today.  You have given us an outline of the points that you wish to make for which we thank you.
 We know that you will be well known to many of the people in the audience here today and respected for the stand you took at the time of the events that we are talking about.  So we just ask you to go ahead and tell us your evidence.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Can I stop you for one moment.  We are realising that we are leaving you to sit up there on your own exposed in a way to this big audience and we wonder whether you would like one of our briefers to come and sit beside you?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: We would like to call our next witness for the day, Notayini Galaweni.  Could we have Phakama Njisane bring up Mrs Galaweni, please.
 We greet you, Mamma Notayini Galaweni and we are going to ask Mary to swear you in.  Glenda will be leading the questions.

MARY BURTON: Mrs Galaweni, can you hear the translation well through the ear-phones?

NOTAYINI NOMANGESI GALAWENI: Yes.

MARY BURTON: I will ask you to stand to swear the oath, please.

NOTAYINI NOMANGESI GALAWENI: (Duly sworn, states).

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  Please sit down.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Glenda Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Afternoon, Mrs Galaweni.  It has been a long day for you and you are our last witness today, but I hope that you feel that we are giving you as much time and attention that you deserve, and that you will be able to feel free to tell your story in your own words. You will be talking about the death of your husband, in June 1986.  Please go ahead and tell us your story.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

PROF MEIRING: Thank you, Pumla.  I think a question that is foremost in many minds, is what happens now to the victims. Is this all that the Truth Commission offers to victims, the opportunity to make a statement or to some of them to come to the public hearing to present their statement, is that all.  The answer of course is no.  There are three committees in the Truth Commission. One is the Committee for Gross Human Rights Violations, who organise these hearings. You all know about the second committee which is the Committee for Amnesty, who has to consider all the applications of perpetrators who want to ask for amnesty. But there is also a third committee, the so-called R & R Committee, the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee.  They are the people who are tasked to listen very carefully to the needs of all the victims, to sit in at all the hearings, to go through all the statements that have been collected by the Truth Commission, and to make a long list of all the needs of the victims, survivors and their families. You may be interested to know that many people, when we ask about their needs, talk about medical need. Other needs, psychological or pastoral assistance.  Many people say what we really need is education. Or other people talk about money for shelter, for houses.  Some people come with very interesting requests for what we call symbolic reparation, for a tombstone or for a reburial. Some people think widely about community reparation, about monuments, street names that should be changed to commemorate the heroes of the past, a national day of remembrance.  All of these requests, all of these needs are carefully catalogued by the Truth Commission.
 We are preparing a long series of recommendations on reparation that will have to be finalised by the end of the year.  It has to be put to Parliament to approve all the reparation measures that we propose.  Hopefully, on the 1st of March, when we do hope that the President will be able to bring the document, the whole report of the Truth Commission to the nation,  that reparation can take place.  That all the people who are found to be victims, who are in dire need, will be able to be helped by the Truth Commission.
 So you may know that people who - the victims, the survivors, their families, we take their plight very much to heart and we are working very hard that reparation and rehabilitation will take place at the end of the Truth Commission's life.  
 The Truth Commission cannot implement reparation.  The Truth Commission has the role of listening, of listening very carefully, of giving the opportunity to people to bring their testimonies, but after the life of the Truth Commission, an implementing body will have to be found that will be our first recommendation, and this implementing body will have to start making reparations, helping people to regain their dignity, to regain something in life that is important to them. Thank you very much.
MEETING POSTPONED TO 10 JUNE 1997
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MARY BURTON: Mrs Kaloli, it is not really a question.  But we know that one of the things that hurt families so much at that time, when they had lost somebody from their family, was the kind of thing that you spoke about when you went to Wynberg.  We would just like you to know that our researchers did go very carefully into this statement that you gave us and our investigators, they have followed up.  They have found documentation about Monwabisi's death, about the things that happened on that day, about the person who is alleged to have fired the shots that killed him, and that we will continue to ... (intervention).

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Excuse me, Mary. Really, we are not going to tolerate the cell-phones that are on.  Please can you take them off, it is very disrespectful of the occasion. Thank you.

MARY BURTON: Just so that you should know that proper attention has been given to finding all the records that we can and if you have not already been told about that, we will make sure that you get all that information.  Thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary. Anyone else? Piet?  Thanks.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Kaloli, it is already 11 years ago but we can see that you still hurt and that your family still hurt and that you long for your son.  We do hope that coming here today and telling your story has been a healing experience for you. We feel with you and we do pray with you that the Lord will heal the wounds and that as time goes by that you will be able to live with the memory of your son. We thank the Lord with you for your son and for the good memories that you have of him.  Thank you for coming, and please give our best wishes to your husband and to the other children.  Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Piet.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NTSEBEZA: We are pleased that you have been able to do so.  There are very many disturbing questions for the Commission and not all of them can be replied to or answered by you.
 And I think that came very clearly from your testimony.  But the testimony that you have given has been quite helpful.  And I think I echo the views of this panel when I say you have assisted us and I hope we can call upon your help in the future whenever we want to unravel some of the mysteries of our troubled past.
 As I indicate, you are not on trial, nobody is on trial here.  The duty of the Commission is to expose the truth, but not for its own sake, only to the extent that it might facilitate the process of reconciliation and to that end we hope that your contribution today will assist the process.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  May I be excused please?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may be excused yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just explain something.  Mr Ntsebeza was referring to Whites, but I just want to explain that he is using that as a general term, as a (indistinct) term referring to the police, thanks.
 Thank you Mr Ndima.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: The next witness is Winifred Nkosi, Ms Winifred Nkosi and the briefer is Mr George Molebatsi.
Thank you.
 Thank you very much.   We will ask Glenda to swear you in.  We have just decided, we have just changed, the facilitator will be Mary and Glenda is going to swear you in.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mrs Nkosi, will you please stand to take the oath.

WINIFRED NKOSI: (Duly sworn, states).

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much, you may be seated.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Good afternoon, Mrs Nkosi.

WINIFRED NKOSI: I greet you, Mrs Burton.

MARY BURTON: Can you hear me properly through the ear-phones, can you hear the Xhosa translation well?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes, I can hear you.

MARY BURTON: I know that you have been here all through the day and you have been hearing other people make their testimonies, and I am sorry it has been such a long and tiring day for you.  But I know also that your story makes up part of this history that we are looking at, and that you were very active at that time.  You were a member of the United Women's Organisation. In fact, I think you held office in that organisation.  You had also a very terrible experience yourself during that time.  So we would like you to tell us about it, please, in your own words.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MARY BURTON: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mrs Nkosi, just once again, to thank you very much for coming.  You have talked even about the early days in Unibel and that helps us to remember that even though today we are looking at one specific moment in the history of the people who lived in KTC in 1985 and 1986, but you remind us that many of them had gone from one place to another, before even coming to settle at Crossroads, and that there was a long history of organisation and involvement in community spirit, that had brought people together, and often then saw people then in conflict when in the past they had been friends and neighbours. So we thank you for helping us once again to understand a little bit more about this very complex situation.  Thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary, thank you, Mrs Nkosi. You are free to go now.
___________________________
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, to ensure that your theory of Black-on-Black violence is supported you made sure that there were journalists on the casspirs to have a record of Blacks fighting Blacks.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, no ...(intervention)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: There were no journalists in the casspirs?

ADV LOUW: Sorry if you could just give him an opportunity to answer the question, thank you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Okay, thank you.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Please repeat your question?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Were there journalists in the casspirs?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No there were no journalists in the casspirs.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir there is evidence, there has been testimony, people who have appeared before us said that there were journalists on the casspirs.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, not that I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Odendal.  What colour uniform did you men wear, what was the colour of their uniform?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: What did we wear then, we wore camouflaged uniforms and then field uniforms, almost looking like police uniforms.

CHAIRPERSON: What colour, blue?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: The field uniforms were blue and the camouflage uniforms were those which they wore on the border, I can't remember what we wore that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question more.  Mr Barnard has been described by many people, including Mr Schelhase, as brutal, in fact Mr Schelhase referred to him as a killer machine in other terms.  Do you agree with that perception of Mr Barnard?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: I do not agree with that.  Mr Schelhase also said he did not know Mr Barnard very well.  I want to tell you Mr Barnard was a brilliant policeman.  Weekends, Saturdays and Sunday evenings when there was no unrest he worked in Guguletu, in Crossroads during the night.  And do you know how many stolen vehicles he retrieved?  And then here in Guguletu he is regarded now as a very bad person. He was a brilliant policeman.