Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Visser on record.  Allow me Mr Chairman, to apologise for the fact that the witness who gave evidence on Friday, Petrus Miningwa is not present this morning. I knew that one of my witnesses was writing examinations, the mistake I made was not realising that it was Mr Miningwa. He will be back here today by 12 o'clock Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, you may have made the mistake but someone else on your part did not, and came and spoke to me on Friday afternoon and explained to me that he was writing an examination this morning and requested whether you could continue with someone else and he could come back after the exam and I agreed to that.

MR VISSER: I was told Mr Chairman, and I just wanted to place it record, thank you Mr Chairman. May I call the witness Mmelesi, spelled: M - m - e - l - e - s - i.
    There is no affidavit of that witness before you Mr Chairman.

MR MMELESI: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mmelesi.

MR MMELESI: Ja.

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mmelesi, what work do you do?

MR MMELESI: I'm working at the security branch, Sir.

MR VISSER: What is your rank?

MR MMELESI: I'm a sergeant.

MR VISSER: When did you join the South African Police?

MR MMELESI: 1981, on the 22nd of January.

MR VISSER: And when did you join the security branch?

MR MMELESI: I joined the security branch in 1985.

MR VISSER: And was that here in Bloemfontein?

MR MMELESI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What section did you work in the security branch?

MR MMELESI: Investigation section, Sir. Under Mr Du Plooy.

MR VISSER: Who were the other members in that section of the security branch?

MR MMELESI: Mr Du Plooy, Lieutenant Terreblanche, Warrant Office Paul van den Berg, Sergeant Du Plesis, myself, Constable Kopi, Constable Mafisa.

MR VISSER: Do you know Mr Ngo?

MR MMELESI: The time I arrived here, I saw him at the security branch offices.

MR VISSER: And as far as your knowledge goes goes what was his position, his status, at that time in 1985?

MR MMELESI: I thought he was a member of the security branch but I learnt from others that he was a recruit.

MR VISSER: Did you ever work together with Mr Ngo?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I haven't worked with him.

MR VISSER: You also know Mr Motsamai?

MR MMELESI: I know him very well.

MR VISSER: He was in fact a member of the security branch, was he not?

MR MMELESI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you work with him?

MR MMELESI: No Sir. We were working all of us working at the security branch but we were working at various sections, I was not working with him in one section.

MR VISSER: In 1985 to 1986, can you give us a guesstimate of how many members worked in the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

MR MMELESI: It was investigation section and ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I just want, I'm sorry, to interrupt you. I just want you to tell us about how many members in total worked in the security branch in Bloemfontein in 1985/86. If you can't remember, just say so.

MR MMELESI: We were many, I don't remember, I don't remember.

MR VISSER: Now, it has been alleged here by Mr Ngo that you participated in the incident which we have referred to in this case as the group of 19 people who were interrogated and detained here in Bloemfontein in 1986.
    Now if it were to be suggested that you did anything wrong, that you performed any illegal or unlawful act, what would you say about that?

MR MMELESI: I did not take part. The way I had if there was something wrong which I did in that time, I did not assault any person.

MR VISSER: Did you see anybody being assaulted in your presence?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I did not see a person being assaulted in my presence.

MR VISSER: Did you interrogate some of the comrades?

MR MMELESI: That is correct.  There were those I interrogated, I acted as an interpreter.

MR VISSER: Can you remember any of the persons today, that you interrogated at that time or that you interpreted while they were being interrogated at that time?

MR MMELESI: There were many, I don't remember their names.  When I say there were many, some of them I started to see them now.  I am not able to locate them to the interrogation during that incident.

MR VISSER: On how many days - can you remember on how many days you took part in the interrogation as an interpreter?

MR MMELESI: I'd say I took part in four incidents were I took part in the interrogation as an interpreter, I don't remember well.

MR VISSER: You say four incidents. Do you mean four occasions?

MR MMELESI: It is like this, Sir.  When I say it's four occasions, at some days we'd do our normal work but at times when I was in the office I would help during the interrogation.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr MMelesi, did you have any contact with Mr Ngo after he was transferred to Pretoria?

MR MMELESI: No Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: No contact whatsoever.
	Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR MMELESI: We haven't met Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: By that you mean you didn't meet Ngo?

MR MMELESI: I haven't met Mr Ngo.  I learnt that he was arrested and that he is in Grootvlei Prison.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mmelesi, what was the procedure that you followed during these interrogations of the group of 19 persons who were interrogated at the office of the security police?

MR MMELESI: The method we used in the interrogation we were asking them were they were going then they told us that they were skipping the country to Lesotho. Then we asked them about their contacts or contact, or who was their leader to skip the country.

MR STANDER: Were they prepared to give their co-operation throughout?

MR MMELESI: The way they answered the questions, some of them were prepared to co-operate. Even if some of them were not giving us the direct information we'll take one to give us the clear answers to the questions we asked.

MR STANDER: And if he or she did not want to give their co-operation what happened then?

MR MMELESI: We leave him or her. We take another one.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would just leave then, you wouldn't try to press them to give information, you'd just accept that they didn't want to tell you.  Are you asking us to accept that?

MR MMELESI: No, we were not forcing a person to - the person should just tell us that when he or she was asked those questions we'd leave him and we'd take another one and maybe later we'd go back to that person. There's no way we forced those people.

MR STANDER: Now if you returned to the same person later and this person did not want to give his co-operation yet, what then?

MR MMELESI: I would not say is there after a long time. The way that person has been asked those questions, if you are not satisfied with those questions you'd leave that person to think well that he'd able to understand those questions, Not that he should be forced.

MR STANDER: If you've - once you've given him a good chance to think about it and you come back to that man, or to the women, and they still do not want to co-operate, what would happen then?

MR MMELESI: We'd continue with others.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MR MMELESI: No, we don't just leave that person like that. I explained that if he or she does not want to give us direct answers we'd take another one so that we'd give that person a chance think the time about the whole incident.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened if after they had time to think they still didn't want to give you answers?

MR MMELESI: We'd go back to him or her again, we would take her to the interrogation room, then we'd continue with the questioning, then he would he would answer well the way the investigator or the interrogator wants.