Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

MR KEMP: Is it correct to say that when you arrived at Mr Du 
Toit, you and De Kock also realised that the way in which the 
people would be eliminated, was by using a motor vehicle with a 
bomb in it?    That was conveyed to Du Toit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: Was it mentioned that he should come to Port 
Elizabeth or just that somebody from his offices should come?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't remember exactly whether he had said 
or who should come to Port Elizabeth, but it was mentioned that 
they should assist us because they were the experts.

MR KEMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

MR KEMP: .

CHAIRPERSON: When you explained to Mr Du Toit in his office, 
as to the reason for elimination, how many of you were in there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was just me, Mr Du Toit and De Kock.  Mr 
Ford.

ADV FORD: Thank you Mr 
Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I see it is one o'clock, do you wish me to 
start with the cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: We lost ten minutes around eleven o'clock, let's 
go on for the next ten minutes.

ADV FORD: As it pleases the Chairman.  I am sorry, Ford for the 
families of the victims Mgoduka and Faku.  Mr Nieuwoudt, you have 
annexed to your application for amnesty and you have referred to it 
in your evidence in chief, a number of documents including 
documents from what appeared  to be pamphlets or magazines and 
other documents, other portions of what appeared to be books.  Can 
I ask you what was the purpose of annexing this documentation?  
What did you wish to convey by it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: This documentation indicates the facts and also 
the resistance operations, establishment of revolutionary bases, the 
necklacing and that is in support of the anarchy which existed, the 
unrest situation which prevailed and the people's war concept.

ADV FORD: I see so what you are saying is it was annexed for 
substantiation of the facts which you have referred to in your 
application.  You are not suggesting that you read all this 
documentation before the Motherwell bombing incident and it led 
you to certain convictions which influenced your actions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.  Because it was already in existence at that 
stage.

ADV FORD: Had you read any of this documentation prior to that 
incident, the Motherwell incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.  I did read some of it.

ADV FORD: Were you continuously involved in obtaining 
whatever information there was relating to the ANC, to perusing 
that and utilising it where possible?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Now, just to get some certainty on the hierarchy in 
the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth at the time, do I understand 
that Brigadier Gilbert was your senior officer at the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At which stage?

ADV FORD: We are talking about the time immediately before, and 
at the time of the bombing incident, Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was the Divisional Commander of the whole 
Eastern Cape region.

ADV FORD: And you reported directly to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And Colonel Roelofse, what was his position?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Colonel Roelofse at that stage was the 
Commanding Officer of the Investigative Unit.

ADV FORD: And Mr Van Wyk, I think it was Captain Van Wyk, 
was he also known to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.  He was also part of the 
Investigative Unit resorting under Roelofse.

ADV FORD: We know from Mr Van Rensburg's evidence that for 
some time, he was stationed in Port Elizabeth and a member of the 
Security Branch.  You were also in Port Elizabeth at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And were you in any way under his command at that 
stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, he was second in charge at that stage.  
And at that stage I was under the command of Roelofse and I was 
assisting the Investigative Unit.

ADV FORD: Did you ever find it necessary or did you ever on any 
occasion bypass you seniors to go to head office in Pretoria for 
authority for any operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: You would always go through your senior locally?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Getting some perspective in so far as the time 
sequence is concerned, Mr Nieuwoudt, as I understand it, I think 
you refer to it as an Intelligence Unit, or words to that effect, was 
created in June 1989, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is the Intelligence Unit.

ADV FORD: And you were in charge of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And in respect of the activities of that Unit, you 
reported directly to Brigadier Gilbert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: When was it for the first time, that you identified the 
possibility of a leak in that Unit?  Or was it in that Unit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was round about August.  But the leak did 
not exist only in our division, but also in the whole Security Branch.

ADV FORD: I see.  What brought the possibility of a leak to your 
attention?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because of the elimination of some well-placed 
informers and also covert operations which I launched.

ADV FORD: And where did these take place, the elimination of 
these informants?  Locally or out of the country?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Some of them took place locally and others 
overseas.

ADV FORD: Now, when did it first come to your attention or 
when did you first form the suspicion that Warrant Officer Mgoduka 
might be involved in the leak?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was in August 1989 that that suspicion 
was caused.

ADV FORD: And what precisely was it that brought your attention 
to the possibility of the involvement of Warrant Officer Mgoduka?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was precisely the elimination of my agents.  
And also of other members' agents.

ADV FORD: And if I understood your evidence earlier and the 
application, you then kept these certainly Mr Mgoduka under 
observation as a result of that, after discussing it with Brigadier 
Gilbert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And how long did it take before you reached some 
certainty that in your mind, that Mr Mgoduka was in fact putting out 
feelers or in fact had been recruited by the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was about two weeks, in December, that 
was a whole process which led to the final stage.

ADV FORD: And precisely when was the incident when you allege 
that you heard the discussion between the four deceased in the tea 
room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was during that same time.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, but precisely when, can you recall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't remember the exact date, but the 
reports were presented to Gilbert and also the sound recordings 
were given to Gilbert, we listened to those.

ADV FORD: Do you have copies of that documentation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I do not.

ADV FORD: Did you make a transcript of the tape which you 
allege you listened to?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did.

ADV FORD: Do you know where that is?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I have provided everything to Brigadier 
Gilbert.

ADV FORD: And of course Brigadier Gilbert is now deceased, so 
he is not here to answer any of this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Now when did you decide, because you returned at 
some stage to Brigadier Gilbert, you had decided that the, if I 
understand your evidence, that the situation was getting more 
critical and that further steps needed to be taken?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: This was about two days before my departure 
to Pretoria.

ADV FORD: Are you aware whether or not Brigadier Gilbert had 
discussed this with anybody at head office in Pretoria at that stage?