Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

ADV SANDI: Yes, but what was the general rules? In what way, to put the question differently, in what way were you expected to conduct yourselves when dealing with a member of the community, from whom you want assistance, say in the form of getting his or her vehicle?  How were you expected to go about interacting with that person?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As I think I'll be broader in answering this.  We believe that APLA got the mandate to continue to struggle from it's mandate from the Azanian people, the one we are talking about, and it goes further than that we have to be neighbourly when we are dealing with such people and we have to be kind and I think we have to add also what I have said that things will be governed also by the, as to give us a portion whereby we have to allow that what I am saying of the question of the terrain that will be governed also by the terrain.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that, that being the rule, to be neighbourly as you have said, to be kind to this person.  Should one understand you to say that it is not say that you would stick to those rules in a rigid fashion?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So, you are putting aside what I have added after
that, that the question of the terrain?

ADV SANDI: You will have to explain what you mean, Mr Dolo, by the terrain.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If circumstances like the one I find myself in it involving this case, I take it all this question revolving around the way after all, whereby I was having a rifle on my left hand and there was this civilians, African people were approaching us, and I have to stop them to in request of the car.  The manner of the approach I use, I use PAC decorum.  I was governed after by it, which demands that we have to be, as I mentioned that we have to be neighbourly and that we have to be kind to our fellow Africans.

MR LAX: Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR LAX: I want to read to you what, what I see in Mrs Booysen's statements at page 11 of bundle "B".  She was the driver of this blue Isuzu van with a white canopy that you stopped.  She was driving with three passengers, Mrs Dlepu, Mrs Ndepe and Mrs Molongwana.  They were all schoolteachers.  She said
      " When we were at Dipona, I saw a van parked near the road on the left, facing Sterkspruit.  On the curve there appeared four black men on right of the road armed with firearms.  The two armed with rifles and handgrenades, the other two armed with pistols and they carried a blue striped bag "  
Is that correct so far?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Is it not correct, in terms of empowerment.  It talks about rifles, I don't know how many rifles ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Two

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Apparently two rifles ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Two?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There were no two rifles and further there were no grenades.

MR PRIOR: Well you said in your begining of your evidence you had two R4's and F24 and stick grenades.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Where I was based ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just for the record, this is on page 11 of the second bundle, just so we are all on this.

MR PRIOR: I go on,
"They pointed us with the firearms ordering us to stop. I immediately stopped the van.  I heard them say "no" many times, and by that time we were all screaming.  The other man instructed Mrs Dlepu to alight the van and ordered me to drive to Sterkspruit"
Is this correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't get it.  It's no first, then we were ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Alright, before the no, did you point your firearm at them?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I even showed the court, this hearing, how I approached them, that I used my right hand to stop them as I was having the rifle in my left hand.

MR PRIOR: Alright, so obviously ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not aware of the other Comrades, of what they were doing at the stage.

MR PRIOR: So, as far as you are concerned, no firearms were pointed at these ladies?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I am talking about myself.

MR PRIOR: As far as he is concerned, as far as he is aware, no firearms were pointed at these women.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Who?

MR LAX: What he is saying is that he doesn't know what the others were doing, as far as he is concerned, he didn't point the firearm.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's what I am saying.

MR LAX: It's quite conceivable the others might have, but he doesn't know, he didn't see.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that you instructed the driver to drive to Sterkspruit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think firstly, I instructed her to drive us to Sterkspruit, but after that I changed again.

MR PRIOR: She says she was afraid of the weapons.  She couldn't drive.  I gain the impression from this that she must have been terrified.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not in her mind of what, why she, what was she afraid of?

MR PRIOR: As far as you could see, did she behave as if she was terrified?  Incapable of even driving the vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If, when we were inside the car, we were able to conceal the weapons so the question of being threatened, it's put that all aside.

MR PRIOR: Alright, if I understand your evidence then, you were on your best behaviour in the true PAC/APLA fashion dealing with these people of your own community, requesting her in a very civil and neighbourly way her vehicle, is that correct?  And because of that courteous request they allowed you to enter and board upon the vehicle and eventually drive off with the vehicle, is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat again.

MR PRIOR: Because of your manner, your gentle manner, your neighbourly manner, your courteous manner, you were able then to obtain the vehicle and drive away with it, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Where did you take the vehicle to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know the place, I forgot the area where we drop it.

MR PRIOR: Where, in Sterkspruit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: When we ...(inaudible) towards the town of Sterkspruit or the surrounding ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Did you leave it there?  Did you abandon it there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We drove to, we left towards Sterkspruit that's the whole area.

MR PRIOR: Did you go where you were meant to go, your destination?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We didn't reach our destination, due the lack of the fuel of the car.

MR PRIOR: So you ran out of fuel?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you just left the car on the side of the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not on the side of the road, there were this area next to it then I drove to one of the schools there, then I left the car there.

MR PRIOR: And left the keys in ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I left the keys inside the car.

MR PRIOR: Do you know if the owner got the vehicle back?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As we noticed, when we were driving to our area there was a roadblock which was mounted by the police, inside the Sterkspruit.  I take it out of their investigation the car will be discovered sooner and they would be able then to receive their car.

MR PRIOR: I see.  So you knew the police had mounted an investigation who were looking for you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Who?

MR PRIOR: The police.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Were looking?

MR PRIOR: For you people, your unit.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I take it the roadblock was there for that.

MR PRIOR: Now, I just want to ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, sorry.  How far was this roadblock from the point were you left this vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There was a hill which we had to go to it and the roadblock was mounted when you pass through this hill.  There was this question of the fuel of the car and since I see the hill and decided I don't think we will make it.  Then I decided to park the car next to the school.  As we were moving not far away from this roadblock then that's how we noticed it.

MR PRIOR: Now your objective there was to kill white people driving on that road.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.