Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

MR KOOPEDI: That does his testimony for now Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, did I understand you properly when you said you were not personally involved in the wimpy bombing?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well technically I would say yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Your involvement is only to the extent that you were the commander?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, I was an overall commander.  The question of any identification, reconnaissance and execution I viewed myself as part.  We might also delegate a responsibility to an individual person within the command structure in the East Rand, but yes, I did not personally, but I am responsible because I was part of that collective.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you part of the collective which did the reconnaissance?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Initially yes, but we delegated the responsibility for further reconnaissance and execution to my fellow applicant.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But to some extent you did direct the attack?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Excuse me?

SISI KHAMPEPE: To some extent you were responsible for directing that attack, as the overall commander of the Johannes Nkosi Unit?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr Sigasa, what my colleague is getting at, we stuck with this lacuna of taking responsibility for actions of the underlings, even if you didn't know that they're going to do it or did it.  In that context, were you party to the decision to plant that bomb in, let's say, the Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: And through all that planning stage you were party to it?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: As an overall commander yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were being informed of certain information or you were receiving certain information because of reconnaissance?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when the decision was finally made, the Wimpy Bar in Benoni was set to be a target, you were party to that decision?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew what was going to happen there?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I think it confuses a bit.  As I elaborated in the submission, the target as we indicated, because we have realised that it has created some kind of hullabaloo, particular situation, we knew that people were going to be affected in our military attack in that blast but I also clarified that Wimpy at first was not the target but it happened to become a target then.  As I elaborated, that through the reconnaissance and the information gathered, security personnel as well in fact were frequenting the place, particularly from the Special Branch stationed here in Benoni, that is next to the railway station.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put it clearer then.  You see people can't get amnesty for something that occurred that they didn't know about, they have to be guilty of something in order to obtain amnesty, not so?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why I'm asking these questions, to see to what extent  you were involved in this.  And in respect of the Wimpy, you do say that you were party to the planning.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there, of all these events that you talked about, is there any event that you were not party to, either by planning or actual activity?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Not at all, not that I know of.  I was responsible.  Everything that happened I was party to.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
	Mr Steenkamp?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Chairperson, if I can be granted an indulgence, on a question of clarity.
	Can I therefore assume Mr Sigasa, that what you are crisply putting before the Committee is that you were responsible for selecting Wimpy as a target?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: A bit dicey question.  I must start by saying I'm an ordinary man.  The question of selection of the targets, we delegate responsibilities like in terms of the orders given to us or the brief, was that we identify wherever they are the enemy personnel.  The target of interest, economic and so on and the identification of that resulted into Wimpy.  The identification of the security personnel resulted into Wimpy.
	And yes, I was informed from time to time, the reconnaissance mission conducted and the reports thereof.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
	Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.
	Sir, the view of the victims of the Wimpy Bomb Blast is that first of all they are opposing the application on the bases that the attack of the Wimpy Bar was a callous attack because it was not a military target and can't be seen at all to benefit your political motive at the stage.  Can you comment on that first?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I think also, Commissioners, we indicated in our application or submission where we quoted also our late President OR Tambo in relation to or in regard to the issue of civilians or soft targets or hard targets, whatever one wants to call it.
	As the struggle intensified it was difficult to separate or to have a distinction of the soft or the hard.  When we talk of callousness we also knew at the back of our minds that innocent civilians will be caught in that kind of, in the crossfire.  
	So I was saying therefore, they happened to be victims of circumstances at a time when we were in fact directing our blows to the enemy security personnel.

ADV STEENKAMP: I can tell you as a matter of fact, that not a single Security Police officer or military personnel or anybody related to any military structure was involved in this incident or on the day of the incident.  All the people that were injured were only civilians, people working at the Wimpy, other people eating there but no military people at all.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: During also the other operations of MK in the country where clearly the target was a military one in nature, but all reports that we received through press of course at that time, we did not have the control of the press, even to date, the reports that would come forth would say so much civilians have died and no security personnel died.  So we cannot deny or confirm that but our targets were directed against the security personnel as I've said before.

ADV STEENKAMP: Before we go on Sir, from whom did you receive your order?  Did you get any specific orders from anybody to attack Wimpy Bars?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I think I must also clarify also again or repeat or reiterate what I said.  Firstly, the order given, we were dealing with the front command in Botswana and the military headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia.
	At no stage was Wimpy a target, at not stage.  And as a result I also said that in executing that action, military action, at no stage have we felt that Wimpy is a target, it has never been a target before.

ADV STEENKAMP: So you haven't received any direct orders or implicated orders from anybody, am I right or am I wrong?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Implicated orders to say?

ADV STEENKAMP: I mean implied orders, sorry.  Did you receive any orders from anybody?  I'll tell you why I'm asking this question, because on page 25 of the amnesty application - do you have your application in front of you Sir?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you see page 25?
	Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, paragraph 11(b).  I'll read there:
"Orders by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe 1988 which is in line with ANC police"
Can you clarify that?