Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MSIANDA NTONGA: As I've already said, I never saw her before, I didn't know her so there was no hatred, I had nothing against her.  We were just there to do what we had done to other farmers.

MR KINCAID: Do you know what became of those firearms, the firearms that you took from Mr Hansel, from Mrs Marulia?  What became of those firearms, were they used in the struggle?  What happened?

MSIANDA NTONGA: What happened is when we left Mrs Marulia's some of us were left behind.  The weapons that we found there, they weren't with other comrades.  I got hold of the firearms that was used by Mr Nokawusana because the police came and others went back with a Combi and others walked so I took the firearm that was with Mr Nokawusana so I don't know what happened to the others but according to my knowledge we had to surrender whatever we found in the roadblock.

MR KINCAID: So the weapons that you recovered from the farmers were to be left at the roadblocks, is that your testimony?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is so.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy has tendered an apology to the victims of these incidents.  In your confirmatory affidavit you indicate that you wish to echo that apology.  Do you confirm that under oath?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I confirm that.

MR KINCAID: Okay, that's the evidence in chief Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KINCAID

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Kincaid.  We'll adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We have had, in the course of the tea adjournment, a power failure in apparently of this part of the city and that has unfortunately disrupted the proceedings.  We were compelled to take an early lunch adjournment and it's for that reason that we are restarting the proceedings at this time, at 13H30 and we are hopeful that we would be able to catch up any time which has been lost in the process.  Of course it was beyond control of any one of us.
	Mr Ntonga, I want to remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: (s.u.o.)  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Clarke, have you got any questions?

MR CLARKE: Thank you Mr Chairman I have a number of questions to the witness, the applicant.  If I may proceed?  Thank you.
	Mr Ntonga, prior to your going to prison what formal education did you have?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Standard one.

MR CLARKE: Standard one?  When did you do Standard one, what year?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I stopped school in 1983 or 1984 I don't remember well.

MR CLARKE: Thank you.  Now I hope when you testify you'll appreciate that if we - if I personally do not believe the evidence that you give that I will ask the Committee to disregard your evidence?  Do you appreciate that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I do hear what you're saying.

MR CLARKE: Good.  Now I think I made a note that your belief was or that your instructions were at all times that you were not to commit any acts of theft, is that the correct position, in your various visits to these farmhouses and stores?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is correct.

MR CLARKE: Okay.  Who issued that instruction?

MSIANDA NTONGA: It was Randele Manele.

MR CLARKE: I see and was it he who instructed you to go out and look for weapons?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes he was the speaker of the community.

MR CLARKE: I see.  Now who instructed you to go to Mrs Clackers' store?

MSIANDA NTONGA: We were not given an order but we decided that when we were in the roadblock.

MR CLARKE: Was that yourself plus the - when you say we decided, was that you and the Nokawusana brothers?

MSIANDA NTONGA: It was myself together with the comrades that were embarked in a roadblock and they were also present.

MR CLARKE: Who were those comrades?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I don't know there names or I don't know all of them but I only know those that were with me.  There were a lot of us in the roadblock.

MR CLARKE: You can't name them though?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I can't name them.

MR CLARKE: I see.

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Clarke, can I just?  You say you can't name them, do you mean to say that you don't know who they are or should we take it that you do know them but you're not prepared to name them?

MSIANDA NTONGA: What I mean is I don't know their names because there were a lot of us there, I only know those that were with me.

MR CLARKE: Thank you through you, Mr Chairman.
	So the three of you then decided that you would go and visit this trading store, is that correct?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, that is not correct, we didn't decide it was not only the three of us what decided but people were sent to go there.  The three of us were sent by the comrades who were in the roadblock to go to the shop.

MR CLARKE: You were party to that decision, you and the other two were party to that decision?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct because we were also there, we participated in that decision, it was not only us though.

MR CLARKE: Now I would like you in your own words to tell the Committee what happened?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Where we were going?

MR CLARKE: I would like you to tell the Committee what happened when you arrived there at Mrs Clackers' door?

MSIANDA NTONGA: We went to the shop in Mrs Clackers' farm.  When we arrived there we went in and there were people who were inside, I don't know how many there were, I think there were two or three but there were not many.  We asked her why was she trading in her shop because there was this consumer boycott.

MR CLARKE: Who is we, who do you refer to when you say we asked?

MSIANDA NTONGA: It was myself and the two Nokawusana.

MR CLARKE: Did all three of you ask together?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, it was not like that but what I'm saying is I was also there.  It was Mr Nokawusana who was speaking to her.

MR CLARKE: Jimmy?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes.

MR CLARKE: What did you do?

MSIANDA NTONGA: When he asked her that question, when he asked Mrs Clackers that question, Mrs Clackers reached for something under the counter and Mr Nokawusana went on that other side of the counter and the dogs came out inside the shop and I helped him with the dogs, I was hitting the dogs and he was struggling with Mrs Clackers.  I went out to hit the dogs and they went out through the back door of the shop.  I chased the dogs outside and when I was near the door I saw a white boy who was about my age and I called him to the shop and he didn't come, he ran away when he saw me, he ran towards the house, Mrs Clackers' house and I came back.  I went back to the shop and I told them that there was this particular person and I was not sure whether he was going to look for a weapon or what and we didn't have a weapon with us so we ran away.

MR CLARKE: Now Mrs Clackers suffered very, very serious bruising around her throat here, around her windpipe.  Who had grabbed her on her windpipe like that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I cannot dispute that but I never touched her, the person who was wrestling with her was Jimmy, my job was to hit the dogs.

MR CLARKE: So was it Jimmy who grabbed her by the throat?
Was it Jimmy that grabbed her by the throat?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I do not know of that.

MR CLARKE: Mr Ntonga you were there and you were present and you were watching what was going on not so?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was not watching I was also busy on the other side.

MR CLARKE: My client believes that it is you that eventually approached her with a knife, is that the position?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No there's nothing like that.

MR CLARKE: Now my instructions are that this happened very shortly after 2 p.m. after she'd reopened after lunch break.  Do you agree with that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I did not have a watch, I did not check the time.

MR CLARKE: Did it happen in the early afternoon, you don't need a watch to tell that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: It happened during the day but I do not know what time was it and I did not ask for some time before doing the job, I did not ask for time before doing the job.