Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JUDGE WILSON: But yet you can remember that it was 1:40, when you said in the passage outside it is four o'clock, I am going home, that you have no difficulty remembering?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir.

MR JACOBS: Which is where my problem, if I may enter, this is where my problem then comes into the picture.  For instance you are saying that you tortured me, you added - firstly in your application, you say you used the wet bag method.  You don't mention anything else.  When pushed, you do that, which is - now my question is, if  you look at the photo's of how you showed it to us yesterday, it is impossible for, I consider it impossible for you to have done that and then add the wet bag, have the wet bag slightly removed, obviously a person who is in distress, who is for the first time probably in a few minutes, gets fresh air, I would have then been very agitated and very energetic, I wanted to get out, how is it possible that you could add these electric shocks?
	And I would add that you put it up my rectum and in my ear.  So how is it possible that you were doing that alone, throughout the past two days you were saying you were doing that alone?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I said on most of the occasions with the wet bag method I could do it alone.  I have already conceded with your interrogation, it took longer.  I could remember I think it is Johan Kotze, you mention Nortje.  It is possible that Nortje also helped there.

MR JACOBS: Can you then explain to us and I would like to know why you haven't mentioned his name?  Because I remember he was the one Kotze was there, putting the electric shocks on.  I remember his voice saying should I do it here or there, where should I put it?
	And then you held the bag down and then Nortje was shouting the questions down my ear.  Now how come you don't remember him and I was supposedly your first victim?

JUDGE WILSON: First shock victim I think he said?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I also think he was the first victim, Sir.

MR JACOBS: Do you know or do you think, let us hear.  Let us hear that clearly, first and then you answer my second question as well.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I will concede that Nortje was with and Kotze and then again, I am relying on memory, the insertion of the electric wires as by Mr Jacobs' own account was attached by Kotze.  Therefore Sir, to go back to that other answer, if it was in the ears or in the rectum or where, it would appear it was the ear and the rectum.

MR JACOBS: Now, would you then, so obviously now this group, this Unit that you belonged to, it seems to get bigger by the hour.	Initially there was you and Liebenberg, then there was Goosen, then there was Nel after the questioning and then J.P. van Zyl, then Kotze and now there is Nortje.  Who else was there?  I will assist you potentially later on if you could try and remember harder this time, who else was there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The initial Unit as in my statement is Liebenberg, Nel, myself, Kotze, Van Zyl.  Goosen and I have told the Commission that some members left and others came along.
	Mr Yengeni spoke about Goosen, that is correct.  Sergeant, then Sergeant or Warrant Officer Nortje was not a regular member of the Terrorist Detection Unit.

MR JACOBS: Yet, given that he was not a regular member of the Terrorist Detection Unit, your evidence earlier was that you would act in a manner alone so as to avoid unnecessary exposure in court, you allow an irregular member into this group to do the torture physically and be part of this inner circle as it were, how do you explain that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It wasn't that he wasn't a regular member of the Security Branch, he had been a member of the Security Branch for a much longer time than me and he was also very much a companion of Lieutenant Liebenberg and Nel.	He also if I am not mistaken, was a member of the Investigation Team who then also became at a stage the Investigating Officer for your case.

MR JACOBS: Now tell me again, I would say that you are not telling us all the truth in terms of who was all there, because on the day when I was brought in, it was Goosen specifically who said this man is laughing and then Liebenberg's words were don't worry, they will all sing like birds later.
	Now I want to hear you saying, if I was the first torture victim, how could Liebenberg have said that?  ... (tape ends) ... before me, could have been tortured?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am now aware of this Sir.

MR JACOBS: But do you concede that Liebenberg had said that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not in my presence.

MR JACOBS: And you were with me from the time I entered into Culemborg, you were there with the whole group.  There were about six, seven of them around me, do you recall that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The finer detail of this, I honestly cannot remember.

MR JACOBS: How come you remember that I was twenty to two, was the time that you had set me up in terms of the watch rouse, but you can't remember, as Mr Kruse said earlier, it is an inner circle, you do things.  Remember you are confronting supposedly these dangerous terrorists, you trust those people around you.  How come you don't remember those people who were all there, who were ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On numerous occasions, there were people.  I am trying to the best of my knowledge to remember which people and not just pull names out of a hat and say - to let my story look better and say so, so and the other person was there.
	On your part of the twenty to two, your cut out time, if you can remember correctly, was 14h00, that is how I remember it was approximately twenty to two or approximately twenty to two when we left.

MR JACOBS: I would also then suggest that there was about 15 people when I was brought in.  Remember there was a group of Coloured policemen who arrested me, seemingly deployed on the scene of my arrest, at the door of Culemborg, they were told they could leave then all of the other which has happened to me, White men came into the picture.	There was also Colonel Smit, was also there.  Do you remember him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I do not remember Colonel Smit being there.  He may have been there, but if my memory does not fail me and this is a one incident that you are thinking of.  I had numerous, I don't think I was at Culemborg at your time of arrival.
	Am I correct, or did I arrive at Culemborg after you had been brought to Culemborg?

MR JACOBS: No, when I arrived there by the door, then when they brought me there, put it that way, all of you, the door was opened from the inside and there was a group of men there.  You were one of that group, standing there and it was where I was then smacked firstly by Liebenberg.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That may be so Sir, I cannot remember.

MR JACOBS: That may have been so?  Now see, every time it happens that you say, you see, that is where my problem, the Commission can allow me just to make this point.
	We had indicated earlier that obviously it would be in national interest for us to support an application for amnesty if the whole truth is told, not just a part of the truth and every time when I ask you, when others have asked, when new evidence is set, then you say that might have been so.	You have never earlier spoke about the shock treatment.  But let's just go to the shock treatment.  Why was that necessary given that you were saying that the bag and all of that, I mean what would that make a difference?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was using any means at my disposal to get you to tell us where your friend or compatriot was hiding.

MR JACOBS: Now, the question is then anything to get me to talk, is that what you are saying, anything?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Anything short of killing you, yes.