Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR JACOBS: So, when I was - after a few times what had happened, you would undress me, tie my blue belt around my feet, throw me on the ground, put the handcuffs which was this round, I think it was the handcuffs with the cloth over my arm to prevent me from having, because of the struggle you will do that and that will happen quite a few times, but at some point, I think it is about the fourth time, when I thought I am dying, you woke me up and you said, Peter, I will take you to the verge as death as many times as I want to.  But here you are going to talk and if it means that, then you will die, that is okay.  Do you remember that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede I may have said that, Sir.

MR JACOBS: I want you to know, I want you to tell me, because this is important for me.  The Truth Commission can amnesty, but this is important for me, did you say that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I did say that.

MR JACOBS: So, now how come you are saying earlier that I would concede that it might be so, that is so.  Because I would remember my own torture very detailed, it is a very personal experience.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I said that Peter, and without trying to justify my cause, under the circumstances I had to make a person think that his life in our hands could be taken.   So that you could think the only way to survive is to tell us what we wanted to know.

MR JACOBS: No, but your words were you are not going to die here, now, remember that?   Do you remember that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not specifically, but maybe yes.

MR JACOBS: And then further you added, I will take you to the verge of death as many times as I want to.  And that is the power that you had over us, do you remember that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede this, this question was asked to me before and I think I did say to you yes, I will honestly concede that I said that.

MR JACOBS: Now obviously the issue comes, if you can accept that, do you then - why was this not mentioned in your amnesty application, what you did detail?  You are talking about general wet bag method and then mine was potentially longer.  Because I mean, we want full disclosure of what you said, because remember everything in court you denied and therefore the Judge dismissed it.  Which means it was not true what I said then, now you are admitting.
	Why did you not say this earlier, so that we could have started this process from a very solid and honest foundation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If you are referring to the court of law, you were then being tried for terrorism.  I could not admit to that and now in this Commission, the using of the electric shocks I couldn't bring to put on paper, but I have approached the Commission and the shocks have not been drawn out of me, I have told this to the court.

MR JACOBS: You have told this to?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To the Commission.

MR JACOBS: When was that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Today.

MR JACOBS: After I had told you what had happened, or after Ashley Forbes had questioned you about it, then you said.  You didn't give it out of your own, will you concede to that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Ashley Forbes, if I can remember correctly said that I had shocked him and I denied that and said only Peter Jacobs.

MR JACOBS: Why would, if I may, would Ashley Forbes remember the carpet that he was wrapped up in the carpet, he was tortured in exactly the same method and then he adds an additional thing that wouldn't have been necessarily far more worse, because already all the others were just as evil, why would he then add something else to it and then you deny that?  I mean that to me doesn't make sense.  Could you explain that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Because I am of the opinion that I did not apply shocks to Ashley Forbes, I have applied shocks to only one person, and that is you and for that I apologise.

MR JACOBS: So now, so in your okay, in your, let's go on to, so whilst I was being tortured, there was Kotze, there was Nortje, Liebenberg was in the room as well, then there were the other people in the area.  I could hear there were many voices there.  What were they doing?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I haven't got a clue.  As you will agree, most of the time, I was in the office with you.

MR JACOBS: I think I am going to come back to this point.  Firstly, maybe firstly let us just go to the torture thing again.  I was your first survivor of this torture method of you, you would concede that, you say?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR JACOBS: When I looked at what you did to us and then I was one of them yesterday, it was exactly the same you did with me as well.   Yet, you appeared very effective at what you were doing, how come given that you have had no experience before that, supposedly, how come you were able to do it that effectively?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't answer that how effectively it was.

MR JACOBS: Are you a natural talent at this, I mean, do you think?  Because it is the first time, you admitted yesterday?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know if I have got a natural talent for it, it is not a very nice talent to have.

MR JACOBS: Okay.  It is not a very nice talent to have?  If it is not a very nice talent to have, you went on, if you say from nine o'clock till two o'clock, which is quite a few hours, you went on for long with something you are not very comfortable with?  How do you explain that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Jacobs,the method employed by me is something that I have to live with and no matter how I try to interpret what I did, I still find it deplorable.  I find it exceptionally difficult, sitting here in front of the news to everybody, I concede that no matter how bad I feel about it, what was done to you and your colleagues, must have been worse.	Believe me, I am not gloating or trying to prove that I am somebody who I am not.

MR JACOBS: Now then, to go to the issue you were saying you concede as well, there were other people busy with that, which means it was an official method that was authorised and approved that you were using?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know if I am following in the right context of other people being busy.

MR JACOBS: Which is Nortje, somebody else was holding down my feet.  I couldn't recall who that was.  Nortje was shouting down my ear and screaming at me with questions.  Kotze was administering the electric shocks when the bag was removed, you were holding the bag.  And Liebenberg, I heard him around.
	Earlier and after when I was dressed again, I saw Colonel Smit, who is now Commissioner Smit also around.  Which means they were all there, which means your actions were authorised high up, because a Lieutenant is an Officer, a Commissioned Officer.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Jacobs, you are saying you saw these people there.  I am trying to categorise and not shift the blame off anybody, if anybody is to blame, it is me and I cannot see how not implicating anybody else, I can strengthen my application to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question complicates a somewhat simple question and the answer just makes it worse.  The question is simply was the method of torture authorised higher up?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not writtenly authorised, but condoned.

CHAIRPERSON: There is the answer.

MR JACOBS: Yes, which then deals with, that to me will then become a particular bone of contention that if it was not authorised and acted with the support of the senior officers, it means there cannot be a context, a political context and therefore and with authority acting with authority, therefore he cannot qualify then for amnesty.   In other words he was a lone ranger and which now he is conceding he wasn't a lone ranger, there were other people involved.  I want to now ask about the structures that provided the support for you, to allow you to do all of these things.