Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR SMUTS: In the confession which was tendered in the criminal trial, a confession of Lungile Mazwi, he reports on this reconnoitring, Mr Chairman, in the bundled index, it appears in the typed page 81 of the judgement, he reports on this reconnoitring exercise and he says from line 16 on page 81, some of us about four, went to the flats to check whether the whites were there.  They came back and reported that they had found an old lady and a girl, whites.  A young herdboy appeared and said some white men had travelled to the sea in a 4 x 4 van, to catch fish.  We waited for them in the vehicle until sunset.  At dusk the 4 x 4 van appeared.  Four of us hid in the bushes behind our vehicle and then he proceeds to describe the attack.  What is your comment on that evidence as contained in the confession of Lungile Mazwi?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Firstly, as I have said that what I told in court, what was said in court, was not true and what I said in court, so I think maybe Lungile Mazwi had told things which were not even true, just like myself.

CHAIRPERSON: That is besides the point, let Mazwi come and say that for himself.  The issues are, did Mazwi tell you that he had met a young girl and an old white lady somewhere during his reconnaissance trip?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: According to my own memory, it was Vuyani, Pumelele and Guleni who went to surveil that terrain.  I don't remember Mazwi going, that is why ...

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to my question.  Did he or did he not tell you that he had met or seen a young white girl and an old white lady somewhere during his reconnaissance effort?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, he didn't tell me that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he or did he not, indicate to you that a herdsman I think it was, had indicated to him that the occupants of a certain bungalow, had gone on a fishing trip?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I didn't hear that.

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Maxhayi, you are correct.  The confession of Mr Mazwi suggests not that he was part of the reconnoitring trip, but that the evidence was that those who had been on the trip, came back and reported that there had been an old lady and a girl found, who were white, is that not correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: As I said, according to my own memory, I don't remember Mazwi going for any surveillance.

MR SMUTS: Yes, that is precisely what I have put to you Mr Maxhayi.  His evidence in his confession was that those others who had gone to reconnoitre, came and reported back seeing an old woman and a girl?  Is that not what the reconnoitring group reported?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Can you rephrase the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, those who went on a reconnaissance trip, did anyone of them come tell you or did you hear anyone of them say that during that trip, they had seen an old white lady and a young white girl somewhere and that a particular herdsman had indicated to them, that the occupants of a particular bungalow had gone on a fishing trip?  Did you hear any of those people who went on this reconnaissance trip, say so or did anyone specifically report to you that that was the position?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I came up with the information of that sort at the time we were still in court, you see.  Nobody at the time of the attack, came to me and tell me that.

MR SMUTS: My recollection is that while your evidence was being led by your Counsel today, he dealt with the fact that you were aware that these people had gone on a fishing trip.
	My Instructing Attorney's note is that your Counsel in leading your evidence, put to you the fact that the occupants of the bungalow had gone fishing.  Is that correct or not?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: What I heard was that the occupants of a certain bungalow had gone somewhere to another beach or coast.  Now I cannot be certain whether I really heard that they were there for fishing.  I cannot confirm that really I was told about that, that they went there for fishing.

MR SMUTS: Would it have made any difference to you whatsoever if you had been told that they had gone on a fishing trip?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We went to Gomolo with the information that that coast is used by the people who were suspected as the people who were infiltrating the area, as their place of operation.  They were planning their, they were using that as their springboard, let me put it that way.
	So, even if I had heard that they went for fishing, that would make no difference, because that does not mean if you in a certain place for a certain mission, you cannot do other things.  Maybe it can fall within their scope that they should maybe carry out their mission using the same thing of fishing, according to my own analysis.
	Nothing I would change, even if I had heard that.

CHAIRPERSON: They were infiltrating the fishing industry, Mr Smuts.

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: You have told us you had this information.  Who gave you this information, what is his name?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The information was put on the SDU meeting at sub-regional level.

ADV DE JAGER: Who?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The information was put at the SDU meeting at sub-regional level by the comrades from Port St Johns, that is Guleni and Pumelele.

ADV DE JAGER: Guleni and Pumelele?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, they came up with that information that there was infiltration there at Port St Johns.

ADV DE JAGER: No, not at Port St Johns, at this beach.
	We know that at Port St Johns there were infiltration.  Who gave you the information that the people at that beach, was infiltrators?

CHAIRPERSON: Better put, the people who were infiltrating were using the coast as a springboard to plan their operations, who gave you that information?

ADV DE JAGER: The two comrades from Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: Applicants number 1 and 4?  Hermans and Guleni?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Mr Maxhayi, this might be an appropriate moment then to deal with this information.  These operations for which the coastline was being used as a springboard, what sort of operations?  What was the information?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: According to the information that we got from the two comrades, was that these people were locating firearms, were having some meetings in these bungalows.  That was the information that we got.

MR SMUTS: They were locating firearms and were having meetings?  That was the extent of the information you had?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  I think the people who were involved, can be in a position to explain as to why, what details.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you must explain to us why these infiltrators needed to be attacked.  What were they doing that was counter-revolutionary?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The reports, they reported this to us telling us that they cannot operate freely in that area.  Now, we should really try to help them, you see.

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't help me.  It doesn't help us.  For somebody to be targeted probably for assassination, there must be some positive thing that that person is doing which you describe as counter-revolutionary.
	I want to know what was seen as counter-revolutionary?  What damage did these infiltrators do to your struggle?