Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, I am going to call the next applicant which is going to be Mr Greyling and his application is found in the bundle on page 9.  I've also placed before you, Chairperson and the Members and everybody else concerned certain documents which I've taken the liberty of marking.  You'll find the first one is a document that's a summary of the evidence of Mr Greyling which is the "Aansoek om Amnestie vir die Aanranding op Pravine Gordhan".  I have marked that Exhibit F.  Chairperson, yours in front of you is those yellow pages.  For some rhyme or reason my secretary was of the belief that yellow looks nice.  There are four documents in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Four different, yes.

MR NEL: With regards to Mr Greyling there's two documents, one relating to the assault on Mr Gordhan and the second one relating to Mr Lalla which I've marked Mr Gordhan's Exhibit F.

CHAIRPERSON: The one that's headed "Application for Amnesty for the Assault on Mr Pravine Gordhan", that is F?

MR NEL: That is correct, Chairperson, that is in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: The translation of that is that.

MR NEL: There is only an Afrikaans translation of that, that is a summary of the incident.

MR LAX: I see it's Mr Duhr's one that's in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I was looking at Mr Duhr's one.  Sorry, let's just get this straight here.  I've got four, this is Duhr, Bothma, Greyling, so there's just the one document?

MR NEL: There's two documents for Greyling.

CHAIRPERSON: Two for Greyling.  The first one relates to Mr Gordhan, that's F and the other one will be G, relating to Mr Lalla?

MR NEL: Correct, Chairperson, whilst we're at that point in junction we might as well mark the remaining two documents as well relating to Mr Duhr which will then be Exhibit H with regards to the assault on Mr Gordhan and then the document relating to the assault on Mr Gordhan for Bothma will be Exhibit J if I have it correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, do you have these documents?  I think at this stage the important one to have are the two relating to Mr Greyling.

MR GORDHAN: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabethe, could you kindly arrange for copies for Mr Lalla and Mr Gordhan please?  Thank you.

MR GREYLING: (sworn states)

MR NEL: As it pleases the Chair.  Chairperson, Mr Greyling will be testifying in Afrikaans and as I've indicated his amnesty application form is found on page 10 of the bundle in front of you.
	Mr Greyling, you have applied for amnesty for the assault of two persons namely firstly Mr Gordhan and secondly Mr Raymond Lalla, both of whom are present here today, is that correct?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: If you look at your amnesty application which is embodied in the bundle from page 10 to page 14 to you confirm this application and confirm that it is signed by you and do you confirm this as correct?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: You have also heard the evidence of the previous applicant, Colonel Botha, and do you confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it concerns you?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: And before we go over to the incident itself you have also heard that certain documents had been served before this Committee which have been submitted previously namely Exhibits A, B AND C and during consultation with me you have studied these documents and do you confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it concerns you and do you also request for this to be incorporated in your amnesty application?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: If I may refer you to Exhibit F which is before you, Mr Greyling, would you read from paragraph 1 and I ask you to read this slowly seeing as it is being interpreted by the interpreters.  Would you being with paragraph 1 please?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, during 1990 I was a member of the security branch stationed in Durban.  I was a member of a group of investigators and at that stage we were involved in the investigation of the so-called Operation Vula.  During ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Greyling, just to complete the picture, what was your position in seniority with regard to that group?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I was a warrant officer during that period in time.
	Warrant Officer Basson and I were tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla with regard to his involvement in Operation Vula.  During the interrogation of one Pravine Gordhan, I assisted Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha in suffocating Mr Gordhan and so doing to attempt to persuade him to answer questions which were being put to him with regard to Operation Vula.

MR NEL: Mr Greyling we have heard that before Mr Botha went to Bethlehem you were also involved in interrogation, was this also with regard to Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: No, I was simply tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla, Warrant Office Basson and I at that stage.

MR NEL: Please proceed with the case of the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan?

MR GREYLING: During the assault Colonel Hentie Botha arrived at the Bethlehem office of the security branch.  He put certain questions to Mr Gordhan that he was supposed to answer but Mr Gordhan did not assist him during that period and Colonel Botha requested me to help him with the assault of Mr Gordhan.  After it appeared that Mr Gordhan did not intend to answer any of Mr Botha's questions, the assault on him was stopped.  During the assault and at that stage I believed that my actions were aimed at protecting and maintaining the existing government of that time.  I was not rewarded nor did I draw any advantage out of my participation in the assault of Gordhan.  I request that my application for amnesty be favourably considered.

MR NEL: Mr Greyling, would you then continue immediately with Exhibit G which is basically the same with regard to your involvement in the assault of Mr Lalla and may I just ask you from the very beginning that during the compilation of this document, is it correct that you could not recall anything about the asthma pump incident?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: Would you also agree with the evidence which Mr Botha gave insofar as it concerns you with regard to Mr Lalla?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: And was the assault on Mr Lalla stopped as a result of the asthma attack or some form of attack that he experienced?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: Is it also correct to say that you were not rewarded for your share in the assault on Mr Lalla?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: And do you also further request that your amnesty application be favourably considered in this regard?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR NEL: Chairperson, that will be the evidence of Mr Greyling.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Greyling, are you today capable of recalling precisely what the questions were which Mr Botha put to Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla or can you no longer recall?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I can recall clearly that Colonel Botha specifically asked Mr Gordhan to disclose the identity of the informer within the security branch.  Mr Gordhan refused from the very beginning to assist Mr Botha in any way and insofar as it concerns Mr Raymond Lalla I can recall that he asked him questions with regard to a list of names as well as who fetched him at the Swaziland border during his infiltration into South Africa.

MR VISSER: From cross-examination of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, it was disclosed here that you being the security police, if I may put it that way, already possessed all the necessary information that it had been published in newspapers and so forth with regard to the questions that you were busy asking him, that you attempted to get answers for, is that correct?