Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR VISSER: Yes, will you please speak a little bit louder?  Mr Erasmus, would you please give a brief background sketch of yourself and your particulars, where you were born, when you were born, etc?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairperson, I was born in Fraserburg in the Cape Province on the 28th of August 1936.

MR VISSER: And how old are you now?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I was 61, I am 61.

MR VISSER: Can you give us a bit of background about your family circumstances, the way in which you grew up?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My parents were staunch Afrikaners and I have a brother and two sisters, only one sister is still alive.

MR VISSER: What did your father do?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My father was a farmer and he was the foreman on a farm.  He also did a variety of other jobs in his lifetime.

MR VISSER: And your mother?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My mother was a housewife.

MR VISSER: In the years of your formation as a person and as an adult, what political and religious impressions did you form in your parental home?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As far back as I can remember, my parents were supporters of the National Party.

MR VISSER: And how did you feel the Government's policy in your childhood years and when you were a young man, did you have any reason to doubt it in any way?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Whilst I was growing up I believed that the policy was correct. That is the way I grew up and right from when I was a small child it was taught to me as being the correct way of life and that was how we lived.  We understood that we lived apart from other people, from other races for instance in society.

MR VISSER: And you believed that that was correct and justifiable?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: I understand that you're also a church go-er, a religious person?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I grew up in a religious home, went to Sunday school in the Dutch Reformed Church.  I was baptised, confirmed and became a full member of the Dutch Reformed Church and in later years I also served in the church council.

MR VISSER: Can you tell the Committee, in your experience of the Dutch Reformed Church and you involvement with the church, did you receive any indications that the policy of the then Government was morally indefensible, wrong or a sin?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I never saw that.

MR VISSER: Well, what were your perceptions of the church's view?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The way I saw it was, that I believed what I heard and saw in the church.  I believed even in church circles, that the National Party was correct.

MR VISSER: If we can then turn to your joining of the police force and the career in the police force.  You drafted a document which has no been submitted to the Committee, and that's page 24(1) and following and you there give us a picture of your career in the police.  And now, what I would like to ask you is, as a policemen, from the day that you joined the police force ...[intervention]
	Perhaps Mr Chairman, the interpreter could give me an indication if I'm going too quickly.  I'm told that I'm going at the correct pace.
	From the time that you joined the police force until you retired, did you - in respect of the policy as you understood it and those principles, did you apply those principles?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, and when I joined the police I promised to be faithful.

MR VISSER: To be faithful to?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: To the Government.

MR VISSER: To the Government and to the State?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you're saying that you actually gave effect to that oath?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Then Mr Erasmus, I'm asking you, did that entail you seeing it as part of your duties to bolster and support the Government of the day and to protect the Government's policies?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Now, without elaborating on that anymore, could you please with reference to page 24(1) - perhaps Chairperson, with your permission I can perhaps lead him a little bit just to expedite the process?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
	You in 1957, 3rd of January you became a policeman and you did certain training - completed certain training at the police college in Pretoria and you were then stationed at the headquarters in Pretoria at the offices of the paymaster?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And then from '58 you then completed a detective course and upon completion of that course you were placed at Marshall Plein - Marshall Square in fact, in Johannesburg.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Now, then in January of 1959, you were transferred to Caledon Square at you own request - that was in Cape Town.  And is it further correct that during 1960 you then became aware of certain problems which had already emerged on the socio-political scene?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, Chairperson.  At the beginning of 1960 there was a big march of Black people from Langa to Caledon Square and as far as I was aware and I was standing in amongst the people - this body of people was massive, there were about 30.000 people present there that day.  And these people were led by a young man by the name of Philip Khosana and because I didn't know much about Black politics at the time, I drew the inference that the march had been organised by the PAC.

MR VISSER: Was that in fact the case?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think so, yes.

MR VISSER: Was there a consequence, what happened as a result of this march?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Well, the result of this march was that after this man whose name I now mentioned, handed a memorandum to the then Divisional Commissioner of police, the crowd of people dispersed and proceeded to rather seriously damage some vehicles and committed certain robberies.

MR VISSER: Were you part of the body of people whilst they were plundering and causing damage to property?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, I was in amongst them right at the entrance of the Buitenkant Street and Caledon Square police station, where you enter the backyard of the station and for me as a young man who'd come from Beaufort West, it was an occasion of great moment and in fact I was rather afraid because I didn't know what to expect.

MR VISSER: According to your insight at the time, did this occurrence or rather, was it repeated at any other time and in any other place in the country?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I became aware that that was the case.

MR VISSER: And here you're referring to Langa and Sharpeville where many people were killed and wounded?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, correct.

MR VISSER: Now, that was in 1960, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And on page 24(1), paragraph 7, you set out that there had been a further consequence as a result of these events namely, that the ANC and the PAC had been banned by the NP Government and that -if I may perhaps read it,  perhaps you should read it.  You have given us a quote there from the annals of Doctor Verwoerd and Mr John Vorster.  Could you perhaps tell us where this version in paragraph 7 comes form?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That I found in a book which I read or a document which I read.  I don't know whether it was Hansard - I can't actually remember what this document was.

MR VISSER: Could you perhaps read it to the Commission?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The following
"The Prime Minister, Hendrik Verwoerd in this period acted by suppressing by these occurrences and in July of 1961, he appointed John Vorster as the Minister of Justice and Mr John Vorster at a certain meeting told how Verwoerd had told him...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Please continue.  It's Vorster speaking?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.
"Mr Vorster at a certain meeting recalled how Verwoerd had told him ...[intervention]