Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MR VALLY: So you would know a lot more than you are saying in your statement.  It will be a necessary assumption for me to make if you were part of the daily briefings your claim of ignorance of anything around Mandela United Football Club and Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela sounds barely believable.  That question I am posing to you in view of what you have just told me.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: As my statement has also explained and I was also advised of such that I am not going to stretch this statement unnecessarily, this was mainly, the statement was mainly made with the purpose, as the points have been explained in the subpoena and this statement was mainly made to comply with the requirements as set out in the subpoena.

MR VALLY: Mr Kritzinger you are presently a policeman who is still working in the South African Police force and you have a fairly senior rank, you would want to assist us as far as you can, would you not?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes that is why I declared myself willing to be present here today.

MR VALLY: So I am going to ask you certain questions relating to certain incidents which will help the Truth Commission carry out its mandate.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: If it is within my abilities and my memory does not let me down I declare myself willing to be of assistance to this Commission.

MR VALLY: And I want to, for the outset, advise you that I would expect you to go further than you went into your statement which is really a very superficial exculpatory statement.  So I want to say that up-front, please assist us, I will ask you questions directly.  If you have knowledge of the matters, not just bare denials or very brief responses which you may or may not have been advised to give, please assist us in view of the fact that you are a serving policeman and we are carrying out a statutory mandate in what we are doing here.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I have no problem with that.

MR VALLY: Now let's go on to the Mandela United Football Club and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.
 Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was obviously an important person within Soweto in terms of political activism, is that correct?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct.

MR VALLY: And her activities would have been under the scrutiny of the Security Branch in Soweto?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct.

MR VALLY: I am also aware that the way that the Security branch operated that different people would be given different responsibilities, for example there would be people who would concentrate on youths; there would be people who concentrated on Union activities and I have been advised by your colleagues who are not in the Security branch that you also had a special section which concentrated on Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela.  What is your response to that?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I am not aware of something like that while I was at the Soweto Security branch that there was a specific section concentrating only on Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MR VALLY: Did you have sections concentrating on the youth and on trade unions?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, there are indeed such persons at the Security branch which would have monitored such organisations and investigated them.

MR VALLY: In which category would Mrs Madikizela-Mandela have fallen?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: As I have said already in my statement I am only aware of the aspect that her phone was tapped.  I think that's general knowledge.  I am aware of that because I have transcriptions, I saw transcriptions which I read.

MR VALLY: Mr Kritzinger we know you were part of daily briefings, we know you were an officer there, we know that you focused on different aspects of what was happening in Soweto, we are now talking about possibly the most prominent political activist in Soweto.  Who would have been monitoring her activities, in regard to telephone tapping for example who would the reports go to?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Good.  I can give two names to this Commission who in my opinion were tasked with that and they were Captain Bosman, my colleague at the time. He was involved with the telephone tapping and activities arising from these transcriptions were referred to Louis Watermeyer.  The activities around Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, as far as I know and I am not trying to mislead this Commission, I am not trying to give you any concrete information as asked by concerning her.  I am not able to do that.

MR VALLY: Well let's go on.  You have mentioned Mr Watermeyer, what was his rank at the time?  We are talking ...(intervention)

ANDRE KRITZINGER: He would have been a captain, he is also a superintendent at the moment.

MR VALLY: And what was the rank of Mr Bosman?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: He was also a captain but is no longer a serving member of the South African Police Services.

MR VALLY: And the information that they had at hand who would they forward it to?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Transcriptions did reach
my eyes and if anything relevant and court orientated it would have been preserved.  The same transcriptions were also transported to Supt Watermeyer who would have analysed it and had he thought it necessary, had he found anything concrete he would have brought it to the attention of the divisional head.

MR VALLY: Fine.  So all matters which potentially could lead to criminal charges being brought would be brought to you?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, to me and my colleague, Colonel Jan Potgieter among others, he was naturally my direct commanding officer at the investigative unit and he would have referred these to me and after I had read it I would have initialled or signed it that I had taken note of such transcription.

MR VALLY: Let's talk about the Oupa Sehere case, do you remember the Oupa Sehere case?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes I remember Oupa Sehere.

MR VALLY: You were the investigating officer in the murder of Mr Hole Makaula and one other, is that correct?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct.

MR VALLY: My first question is, if this on the face of it was a straightforward murder why was the Security branch involved?  I am sorry shall I repeat the question?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes I didn't get it clear.

MR VALLY: Sure.  If this on the face of it was a straightforward murder why was the Security Branch involved in this investigation?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: You know it's perhaps easier to explain in this way.  One could have given this a political colour.  Oupa Alec Sehere was an overseas trained so-called during the old apartheid regime, a trained terrorist with overseas training.  He also possessed weaponry from East Bloc countries, yes we could have called him definitely a terrorist.  I was requested not to give a political colour to this question, I was requested by the Attorney General to investigate it purely as a murder charge.

MR VALLY: So it was with the Security branch because you saw it as having a political flavour?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes simply as I said because he was a trained ANC comrade, and that was part of the daily task of the Security Branch to investigate such matters and that is why that docket belonged with the Security Branch.

MR VALLY: At which stage did you ascertain that Mr Sehere was a trained ANC cadre?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: If I remember correctly it would have been shortly after his arrest.

MR VALLY: And how did you ascertain this?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: By way of interrogation.

MR VALLY: Why did you decide to interrogate Mr Sehere at that stage when you did not know that he was a trained ANC cadre?