Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Kondile, may I interrupt you there.  You say when you got to them, can you identify who you're talking about?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I'm referring to two men who were members of Inkatha, that is Ngcobo and Shandu.  These were the men who were laughing and saying that: "These dogs think that we are finished, this is only the beginning.  This belongs to Inkatha, this is an Inkatha stronghold."
	At the time that they were talking they did not realise that I was on my towards them and I got to them at that stage.  I repeated their words and that is when I started attacking them.  I started off with Ngcobo.  I hit him, he fell onto the ground and Mbatha came with a steel pipe and he tried to hit me with it but I blocked using my hand and the steel pipe fell off.  I stabbed him at that stage and he fell onto the ground.  I started chasing Zwane.  Now a fight had broken out outside the gate.  As I was still running I could hear some gunfire.  When I looked I realised that it was a policeman.  He had pointed a firearm at me.  I proceeded towards the policeman.  This policeman took this bayonet from me.  Luckily he let me off and when he let me off I joined the other workers and we were chasing all the other Inkatha members.  
	Now a fist-fight broke out.  I was the only one who had this bayonet which was taken by the policeman and now we were fighting using stones and all sorts of weapons that we could lay our hands on.  I got to a certain corner where Mabaso was cornered.  I think it was in a house or a workshop.  He was cornered there and Mabaso was in the midst of the people who had cornered him.
	I asked them as to why they weren't dealing with Mabaso or killing him, they said that he had a gun with.  Then I went inside and said Mabaso does not have a gun.  I proceeded and went straight to him.  Just when I was about to grab him he took out the gun.  He tried to aim and shoot.  A struggle ensued and luckily he missed me but he was able to hit me or shoot me in the foot.  We ran out of the workshop.
	Luckily the police had heard the gunfire going off at an earlier stage and they came to the workshop.  We pointed Mabaso out, that he had a gun.  The police came and arrested him.  I ran to the change room at that stage because I knew that I had attacked these two men at an earlier stage so I wanted to have a change of clothing.  	As I was still in the locker-room the police came and saw that there were some dead bodies lying all over the factory floor.  They went around asking for Patrick, Patrick Kondile and I told them that I was Patrick Kondile.  Unfortunately at the stage when I stabbed the two men I was identified by a certain supervisors as well as some foremen who were working at the factory.  That is how I got arrested because there are people who witnessed the incident.  
	I was arrested there and then.  Mabaso was also arrested.  We were put into a van.  I was still bleeding from the gunshot wound.  Mabaso had shot me as well as a chief shop steward, that is Amos Makanja who had been shot in the hand but he was not killed.  That is how I got arrested and taken to Boksburg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Kondile, can I just take you back to the death of Shandu and the attempted murder of Ngcobo.  Which of the two did you attack first?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I started off with Ngcobo.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall if you stabbed him at all?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I stabbed him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened with Shandu?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: When Shandu realised that I was attacking Ngcobo he also came to Ngcobo's assistance, when he heard Ngcobo screaming.  Luckily when he got there Ngcobo was already dead so I was able to face him now.  He tried to hit me with a steel pipe and I blocked  using my hand and I stabbed him as well.  My aim was to kill them.  That is when I started chasing Zwane, after having killed Shandu.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were subsequently arrested and that you've testified to.  After a criminal trial you were convicted of the murder of Shandu and the attempted murder of Ngcobo, is that correct?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You now seek amnesty for the four incidents that you've testified about, well really it's the death of Nyante, the attempted murder of Robert Mabaso, the murder of Shandu and the attempted murder of Ngcobo as well as for unlawful possession of an AK47 and a 9mm pistol.  Is there anything else that you want to say in support of your application for amnesty?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes, I would like the Committee to know that what I did was because of the situation that prevailed at the time when we were being attacked and killed indiscriminately by members of Inkatha.  We had tried to call some meetings and have some talks with the members of the opposite group but they were not very co-operative.
	They had guns so we also had to resort to violence because there was absolutely nothing that we could do.  At that time we had decided that come what may we just had to attack them because they were also attacking us and killing members.  
	I was just an ordinary worker who was not interested in any negativity or fights that were going on at the factory but we realised that they were working hand-in-hand with the management because at some stage they left work for a period of three to six months.  They were killing us but they were being paid by the management even though they had absented themselves from work.  They were not acting according to their principles of no work, no pay.  They were paying Inkatha members whilst the Inkatha members were absent from work and busy killing us.
	These are some of the reasons that made us to reach a resolution or a decision to protect ourselves as well as members of the ANC and FAWU because now this turned into a political row.  They were killing members of the ANC as well as FAWU members so we decided to target them as members of Inkatha.  That's what I could say to enlighten the Committee as to the situation that prevailed, thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And finally, Mr Kondile, are you prepared to answer any questions which any person might have to put to you in respect of these incidents for which you seek amnesty?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: Yes, I am prepared to answer any questions that anyone of the Members of the Committee may have.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van den Berg.  Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I have only two or three questions if you will allow me.
	Sir, can I refer you to page 11 of the bundle.  Mr Chairman, page 11, paragraph 11.  
	Do you have that in front of you?  The last sentence of that paragraph, I just want to have some comment from you.  There you say:
"It has subsequently transpired that the funding for this trade union ..."
This is now UWUSA.
"... came from the Security Branch of the South African Police."
Now my question to you is, how did you learn this?  How did you know this?

ZANDISILE PATRICK KONDILE: I don't remember anything to that effect, that UWUSA got its funding from the police.  I do not know anything about UWUSA, I know about Inkatha which was attacking us.

ADV STEENKAMP: Then on paragraph 15 and 16 - on the same page Mr Chairman, paragraph 15 and 16.
	I read paragraph 15 for you:
"We reported the events to our head office and to Shell House, the ANC headquarters.  We were advised to take steps to protect ourselves."
Can you explain to the Committee what exactly was the advice or the specific instruction you received from the ANC headquarters regarding this feud that was allegedly, or that was raging at this industry?  What happened exactly, what were your instructions?