Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR RAMAWELE: After infiltrating them, what were your further instructions?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There was a certain guy, I have just forgotten his name, he was wanted for a murder, it was alleged that he belonged to a group that killed the municipal policemen.

MR RAMAWELE: Now, the members who were with you, were they all armed?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: They were armed with police pistols, police firearms?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Did they have police identity cards?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I had mine, I do not know whether the others had their cards, but we supposed at all times, to have those cards.

MR RAMAWELE: And, but at the same time you were going to infiltrate, the instruction was that you should go and infiltrate those people in Chesterville?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: How long have you been, how long at that time had you been a Security Police officer, at that time?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Since 1977, it was 10 years, ten or nine years, just around there, but that was from 1977.

MR RAMAWELE: The operation that you were involved in was a very dangerous operation in the sense that when you are going to infiltrate, anything can happen?  You know, it can go wrong, is that correct?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: And obviously when you go to infiltrate, and persuade and convince people that you are part of them, it is also possible that they could want to assure themselves that you are indeed so, it could even involve people searching you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not recall any operation where we were searched, I do not foresee a situation where we would be searched.  We tried by all means not to carry anything that would link us to be policemen.

MR RAMAWELE: If in your experience, if you are, if you meet ANC operatives and you pretend to be, or the UDF and you pretend to be them and they discover you are a Security Police officer, what would have happened to you, in your experience?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They would kill us or there would be a fight.

MR RAMAWELE: So that is something that you knew even before you went to Durban, that it is always a possibility that you could be killed if you are discovered?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Can you repeat your question.

MR RAMAWELE: Before you went to Durban?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Aren't you talking about Chesterville?

MR RAMAWELE: Just answer my question.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I am asking, I am responding to your question, you are telling me that would it not be possible for them to search us at Chesterville, then you are now talking of Durban, I have to get your question clear, so that I respond properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, the question is even before you departed from Vlakplaas for Durban, you were aware of this possibility that if people that you are trying to infiltrate, find out that you are actually a member of the Security Police, you could be killed, you can get involved in a fight, that is the question?

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ramawele?

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And yet, and yet all the police officers carried firearms which identified them with the police and they are going to infiltrate an opponent, is that possible?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Chairperson, if I understood you well, you did not ask me which guns did we carry when we got into, had you put your question that way, I would have responded to it properly Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Let's go back to the question, the members that were with you, had firearms with them, is that not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, we had guns.

MR RAMAWELE: And these arms, these firearms were firearms which were South African firearms, they were firearms which could, they were the standard South African Police Service firearms?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, they had something like a, let me call it a stamp, it was something printed on the gun, you would not wipe it off.

MR RAMAWELE: So the members of the police went to infiltrate whilst carrying firearms which clearly identified them with the police, is that what you are saying?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is not what I am saying to you, what I am telling you is that they had their guns, but when they were infiltrating, they left the guns in the kombi with me.  They went inside with nothing.

MR RAMAWELE: I see, so all the members had no firearms when they entered into that particular premises?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct, three of them got in without guns.

MR RAMAWELE: Was that to try to protect themselves so that they shouldn't be identified?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I want to go back to your other question, what if they were searched and identification cards or SAP guns were found, we were supposed to have guns on our way, but to get into, the guns were supposed to be left behind.

MR RAMAWELE: In short you are saying that they left the guns in the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They left the guns with me in the kombi, that is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you go with them or did you stay behind in the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Myself, Sgt Monyoa, Chris Magopa and Magadi, we were left behind in the kombi.  Cons Seleka, Cons Magagi and Female Cons Shosha went inside.

MR RAMAWELE: Where was the kombi parked in relation to, or let me put it this way, the members who went to infiltrate, did they go into a house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Where was the kombi parked in relation to the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Between 20 to 25 metres from the house.

MR RAMAWELE: So the people from the house, they knew that there was a kombi and there were also other people in the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So even if a person wanted to go into the kombi to search the kombi to see that these are truly comrades, you would have done so, because the kombi was just not far from the scene?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you see the shooting itself?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: What were you doing when you saw the shooting?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Can I first explain to you what happened before the shooting started, because there is something that you left out.  Is it not important for you to know why they went inside without guns?

MR RAMAWELE: I am just asking, somebody else might ask you, I am just asking you what were you doing when you saw the shooting?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I shot as well.

MR RAMAWELE: And you also saw the shooting?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It was dark, I just shot.

MR RAMAWELE: How did the shooting start?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I took out an order, I said let us arrest them and a bullet came from the house and we returned fire.

MR RAMAWELE: Was it the very first, was it at the very first occasion when you went into that house that the shooting started, you never went to the house twice or thrice?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: So you went to Chesterville, some members got into the house and later on there was a shooting?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is not correct, you did not ask me these questions before.  That is not how you put it sir.

MR RAMAWELE: All I want to know is at the time when the shooting occurred, was it on the only occasion that you visited that particular house, that is what I want to know.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Okay, now can you explain to us how the shooting started again.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were outside the house, I spoke in Zulu, I said "let us arrest them", let me put it in Sotho, I actually put it in Zulu so that everyone could understand what I was saying.