Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: I'm just interested to follow up briefly on the fact that the attacks that you launched a few days before the 19th of November, that is this matter Herschel, was partly a training run.  I that, do I understand you correctly?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Partly that of training.

MR PRIOR: To what, did you have to see how the molotovs would explode or how the, your unit would react?  Just explain that to me, why was it necessary to do this training on that piece of the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was to orientate the recruits and it goes further that a question of orientation and also in that a part, it was that of operation.

MR PRIOR: How did you get that, if I can refer to it as the training attack?  I differentiate it from the attack we are now dealing with.  How did you get there, did you also get a lift there to that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, we travelled by foot as part of training.  We have to travel many kilometres.

MR PRIOR: Through the veld?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Through the road and through the veld.

MR PRIOR: And did you retreat back to your base before you came again on the 19th of November.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say, it was the same unit that you used?  Scorpion, and ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes it was the same unit.

MR PRIOR: Roger and Kleintjie?  Now ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Before we go on, Mr Prior, how many, you said there were other attacks that you committed, other operations.  This is just one you have told us about.  What other ones were there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it was the third time when we carry out this one.  We were there on two occasions before we embark on this one.

MR PRIOR: Okay, so you said this one was a few days before the ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The other one.

MR PRIOR: The fatal attack.  When was the one before that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were just a day, we attacked this day and then go again the second day to do the same thing.

MR PRIOR: So you travelled more than 16 kilometres on foot?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: To the site of this place?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You hadn't attacked.  You went back the next day, you travelled all the way back again.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You went back ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As part of exercise.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go back to the same place?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely you must have anticipated the police being there, if you carried out attack after attack at the same place on the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Lucky for us there were no police to pursue us.

MR PRIOR: Why haven't you told us about these matters in your amnesty application?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As it is written in my application, I mentioned just Lady Grey.  I thought I will be asked at length what I was referring to a later degree then specifically to this one.

MR PRIOR: Well why didn't you mention it in your affidavit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The TRC requested only in this attack.  They never asked me at length.

MR PRIOR: Well they didn't know about the other ones.  Why didn't you mention them in your ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So how did they know about this one?

MR PRIOR: Because this one was in your application, and the police also knew about this matter being investigated.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't think it was also, it was in their application just said Lady Grey, Mr Chairman, and I think after that they asked him what does he mean about that and he replied to that.  I don't know whether it's here, but here in the application is only written Lady Grey.

CHAIRPERSON: In this application he says one "Lady Grey and Zastron I ambushed white persons"

MR PRIOR: You see, Mr Mbandazayo, this is the first anyone has ever heard about this thing.  These additional attacks.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was referring to injuries and if they were also dead, that's why I mentioned that in one Lady Grey.  As I believe prior that in the other attacks there was no, it was never mentioned in the media, or we never killed any persons, I take it that.

MR PRIOR: But you don't know that.  It's quite possible you injured some people.  They just never mentioned it in the media.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't think so we injured any person.

MR PRIOR: You see the format at point 9(a)(i) doesn't say injuries or murders or anything like that.  It says acts, admissions or offences.  You understand?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Please Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Form 9(a)(i) on the actual form doesn't specify people who were injured or not.  It just say acts, omissions or offences and there are some acts, omissions and offences you have not told us about.  You understand Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr chairman, I could see that, but Mr Chairman, I have request the Committee because the problem here is that, you know, the way these forms are filled it's such that it's, for instance the date, it's May 1993 and I don't think all these things happened in May 1993, Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg and Lady Grey.  So, there is no sufficient details, Mr Chairman.  I wish the Committee to bring the ones did last year that people who are filling these forms are unassisted and they are filling their own, they don't understand technicalities involved in what they are expected to do, most of the times.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the affidavit expected to do? Wasn't it requested months ago by the TRC?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was, the only time I became aware of this, that they wanted to form this, this hearing was scheduled, and they were just referring to certain incident and I want to obtain for that the particular incident.  I thought that the others, because I knew that he is involved in other operations and I have been told also now today, told by the TRC, that I have to make affidavit in certain incidents.  Some other, they are still going to be scheduled, as is also the case with other applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if he hasn't applied for amnesty in respect of other incidents, they won't be scheduled, will they?  He won't be granted amnesty.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I agree with you, Mr Chairman, if that's the case, Mr Chairman, but that's the matter we are looking into because he is telling me that there was a fax which was sent, requesting certain particulars regarding certain incidents, but unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I  think my understanding is that it was, it was sent to the prison authorities, and prison authorities sent it to the PAC offices in Port Elizabeth.  I haven't heard, I haven't received it, what is actually they wanted regard with which incident, But I've had to tackle this one because this one, it was already scheduled.  So, I don't know whether in those, these they appear.  I'm not sure about, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, maybe if I can just assist Mr Mbandazayo, it is correct.  He came in at a fairly late stage, that he was, that it was indicated that he was acting for Mr Dolo in this particular matter and to that end, knowing that this matter was scheduled in Aliwal North, undertook at his earliest convenience, given the logistics involved and his involvement in East London, was to obtain an affidavit from Mr Dolo on this specific matter.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no enquery made before for further details for the amnesty application.

MR PRIOR: I understand there was, but I don't have those details now.  He did them to the Committee, the evidence analyst is here, who prepared the matter, and I am no doubt her file is available, Mr Chairman, and I can present those if they are necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, as has been pointed out, there is a number of incidents refferred to, but only one date, May 1993.  I would have certainly thought that there would have been some attempt to clarify that.