Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, why did you shoot all three of them then?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said to you that the situation was volatile.  The situation was a situation of war.  If you wanted me, I could have shot that person who moved only and then the other one would shoot me, that is why I shot them all.

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, at this stage I would like to submit photographs with regard to what appeared in the newspapers and ask a few questions around it.  I've made copies of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Berg, I wonder if we shouldn't, if you're going to hand them it, do you have copies of them?  If we could number them, so if we could number them A1, A2, A3 etc., consecutively and then when you refer to them we can refer to that number.  It will make it easier.

MR VAN DER BERG: If you will just allow me one minute, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What has been handed in now and which will be received as Exhibits A1, A2 and A3, are three photographs that appeared in the Beeld newspaper on Saturday the 12th of March 1994.  Each of the photographs depicts the three deceased alongside the said Mercedes Benz motor vehicle.   Yes, Mr van der Berg?

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, if you look at the first one which is numbered A1, you will see it's Mr Uys who is lying against the left wheel of the Mercedes Benz, do you see him?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I do.

MR VAN DER BERG: You will also see the heading there -this photo was taken just before he was shot.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't know Sir.

MR VAN DER BERG: We'll get to that now if you do not know.  You'll see Mr Uys' hands, both his left and his right hand is in the air, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Which one?  Which one of the photos are you referring to?

MR VAN DER BERG: The one where you can see Mr Uys, that's A1. We are staying with photo A1.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: May you proceed.

MR VAN DER BERG: Can you see the hands are in the air?

ADV MOTATA: Mr van der Berg, can we ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, the point is Mr Uys is lying against the back wheel of the car, both his hands are in the air, it's quite evident that his hands are in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: One can see that in the photograph.

MR VAN DER BERG: And you can see on the photo, Mr Menyatsoe, that on the left side of Mr Uys' hip there is no firearm, can you also see that?  It's quite evident but I just want to point it out to you.

ADV MOTATA: But Mr van der Berg, I don't know the witness said he could pinpoint the person who said he had a firearm.  He never said he saw any firearm and I don't know if we were to proceed with that type of cross-examination whether we are going to elicit a favourable answer in your favour.  And again if you say Mr Uys, he has never said he knew Mr Uys, per se.

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, I apologise.  The point I want to illustrate on these photos is the following:  Mr Uys is lying there and on his left side there is no firearm.  It's only for clarity that I'm pointing this out.

CHAIRPERSON: One cannot see any firearm in the photograph and one can see that he's lying with his back against the wheel of the vehicle, with his hands in front of him in an upward position.

MR VAN DER BERG: That's correct.  You can also see on the same photo, the other person who was injured is also lying there, it's Mr Fourie and you can also see that he has no gun in his holster.  Can you see that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's clearer in the original photograph.  Maybe the witness can take a look at this.  The question is that the wounded person lying next to Mr Uys, the person who is lying in a pool of blood, has got a holster on and that there's no firearm in that holster.

MR VAN DER BERG: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Menyatsoe, if we look at A2, the next photograph, it's basically the same situation.  You will see the journalists are all there busy conducting interviews with these people but you said you never saw what happened there.  
	You will also see that Mr Wolfaardt, that's the one who is lying on the left part of the photograph, his head is raised a bit and he's lying on his stomach.  You'd see that his hands are in front of him, you'd see that his left hand is type on top of his right hand.  It's quite evident, you can see it on the photograph.  	And then if we look at the next photograph, A3, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Over the page, photograph A3, on the other side of the page.

MR VAN DER BERG: You will see the heading
"Everything's over.  The bodies of the AWB members were lying next to a blue Mercedes Benz for about a half an hour before it was taken away".
	Here you can see the action is over.  You can see from the photographs, firstly the photograph right in the front.  Mr Wolfaardt is still lying there with his left hand over his right hand and you'd see Mr Uys' right hand is still raised and his left hand fell as soon as the shot was fired.  That is what is evidence front the photographs. 
	Now Mr Menyatsoe, if you dispute these photographs, we'll also show the video.  It's quite evident on the video, the positions of the men's hands.  Now I put it to you that you are saying in your version that one of the men moved their hands towards a firearm, is not true at all, it's a blatant lie and you are blatantly lying to this Amnesty Commission today.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I'm not lying.  What I'm saying is the absolute truth.  I do not know when these photos were taken.  I am not aware as to when they were taken.  I did not know whether - how can you see movements in a still photo, I do not understand.  If you show me photos - I've been listening to you but I do not understand your line of questioning.  And even the fact that you say that I'm lying, I do not understand what your intentions are.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, ...[inaudible]

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: What I'm saying is, if Mr van der Berg is saying I'm lying, I do not understand why he says so because he's just shown me a still photo and how can you see movements in a still photo.  And I do not know when there photos were taken.
	Myself, Menyatsoe, did not see these journalists or whoever took these photos but if you maintain that I'm lying, I do not understand as to why you say I'm lying and what am I lying about.
	You cannot see movement in a photograph.  He can be taking a photograph whilst moving but once the photo is produced there is no more motion in it.

MR VAN DER BERG: I take notice of your answer.  You're going to necessitate us to watch this video again, because in the video you can see exactly before the shooting incident that person's hands were in exactly the same position as they are in the photographs.  So the video will confirm what the photos say, then you will probably be satisfied.  We will watch the videos soon.
	Nowhere in your affidavits did you mention the hand that moved towards a hip and that is what made you shoot them.  Why did you not mention this in your statements?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please be precise, I don not understand your question.  You ask many things at a time.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, Mr Menyatsoe, in your statements, that is which statements, the statement made that was handed in at the Tebbutt Commission for instance and on your application form.  You do not mention in those statements the fact that one of the deceased moved his hand and that prompted you into shooting them.  It's not mentioned in the statement.  The question is, why didn't you say that in the statement?