Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: It's the 9th of June, we are continuing the same matter.  Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: With due respect Mr Chairman I think I maybe lost a little bit in the sense I can't remember where we stopped last time.  My assistant is unfortunately not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry that's your point where we stopped, according to my recollection although it was really not the thrust, the thrust of the evidence was at the point where I admonished the witness to listen to himself as and when you testify because we were at a point, it was on a point where I told him that earlier on he had said that it Oscar said that he was the one, the only one who was present when the attack to place and yesterday later on, in the late afternoon, when we were about to adjourn he conveyed to us that, all of them said that they were present when the attack took place, but I don't know whether that was at the time the main direction, I think there was a main direction, that was an (indistinct).  I think the main thing was about - let me not commit myself.

MR TLOUBATLA: I think I can recollect slightly, I think we were at a point when he was telling us how they took them from the house into the cars and we were at that point.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (sworn states)

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng do you recall yesterday I asked you how were these boys taken into the cars and I even put they question were they not resisting and so on?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember that question and I answered as follows:  I said I said I grabbed Oscar by the belt behind when we took them to the cars.  I pushed him roughly into the boot.  Other victims were also pushed in the same manner into the boot.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just to take you a little bit back, you were saying that during the interrogation you assaulted them with wires, hangers, bottles and so on.  I just want you to give us the detail as to how did you assault them, I mean with a bottle one can hit one with a bottle, one can stab one with a bottle.  How did you assault them with that assortment of weapons?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This is how I assaulted Oscar:  I hit him with a bottle on the head until it broke and thereafter I stabbed him with the same bottle and I assaulted him again with a hanger.  I think he was bleeding already because the bottle had broken.  I stabbed him with that bottle.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.  You then put them into the car and then the car in which you were travelling, who else was there with you except the victims?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The people who were with me were comrade Sam Siema (?) who was the driver and comrade Tamee who was seated in the front passenger seat and myself seated in the back seat.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then where did you go to from Orlando West?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We went straight to Shawella (?) if my memory serves me well, that is where we shot them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Tloubatla where is the first applicant Mr Hlasa?

MR TLOUBATLA: He had not yet arrived sir, I don't know.  I did indicate that he hasn't arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he in custody or what?
COUNSEL (?): No he's not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as long as he's (indistinct) he's on his own, I don't think he will have any problem.  I got concerned because for a moment I thought he was in custody or something so if it is through fault of no one else then well that's alright.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I'm sure Mr Mphoreng you were listening when Mr Hlasa was speaking here yesterday and then he told the committee that you first went to another comrades house in Shawella before you went to go and shoot them.  Do you recall that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I recall that.

MR TLOUBATLA: Now the question is, what he said is it true that you went to another comrades house before you went to go and shoot them, where you were (indistinct) in the kitchen?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We used two different cars to go and shoot these people.  The car that I was in went straight to the spot where they were shot.

MR TLOUBATLA: So your group didn't go to Shawella?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If I remember very well, our group did not go to the comrades house, the car that I was in went straight to the spot where we shot them.

MR TLOUBATLA: But do you know the comrade that Mr Hlasa was speaking about yesterday?  The house in Shawella, I forgot the name, Glen yes.  Do you know that house, did you ever go there that evening.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If I remember very well our group did not go to comrade Glen's house.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright then tell us what you actually did when you arrived where the people were shot?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When we arrive at the spot where they were shot we parked the car opposite to the open space, we got out of the car.  Comrade Tamee (?) opened the boot.  After opening the boot I took out Oscar, still grabbing him by his belt behind.  We went to a spot where I shot him and this was a sort of a hill.  Now I put him on the edge.  If I remember well I shot him with three bullets on the head.  After shooting him I pushed him towards the bottom of the hill slope.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you witness the shooting of the other three boys?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes I witnessed that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not clear, what three boys are you referring to because if you say the other three boys then it means that you are referring to the other group.

MR TLOUBATLA: The other group yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he understand you the same way?  The question is when the other three boys were shot by Hlasa and others, when they were shot did you see that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: My answer was directed to the boys who were in our car, not those in Hlasa's car.

CHAIRPERSON: The other two I imagine because you shot one, obviously you witnessed that one and if you wanted to know about the remaining in your group he would have said the other three so I thought when your lawyer speaks of the other three you are referring to those who were shot by Hlasa and others.  Did you see that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer my question.  Did you see the other three people when they were shot by Hlasa and others?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: No I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you very much, that was my question basically.

CHAIRPERSON: But, sorry.  Do you know whether or not the people you shot was at the same point where the other three were shot by Hlasa and somebody else, were also shot, because both of you speak of up the hill, the ravine and the like?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We're talking of the same place, but there are distances involved in this.  The other group might have shot at this spot and the other group about 10 meters from the first spot.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if there was no meeting at Glen's house to (indistinct) and to finalise as to how these people were to be killed and where, then how come that they happened to be shot at more or less the same spot?  Was it agreed previously and if so where?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was implementing and order from Orlando West.  An order had been taken out already that these boys, members of SOSCO, were going to be shot and we were going to shoot them in Shawella, that is what I remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: When you were given the order to shoot these boys, did the order also include the place where you had to shoot them?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes the order included the spot.

MR TLOUBATLA: But you personally didn't witness the shooting of the other three boys, not the ones with whom you went?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: No I did not see them.

ADV BOSMAN: Just a moment.  Mr Mphoreng how was the spot identified, how was it described when the order was given?