Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-12

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Skosana, the, sorry to take you back to what I asked you earlier on.  I understood you to say that, that is with reference to paragraph 38 of your statement, eventually you explained it to say that by saying you stood at strategic positions around the house.  You excluded or you exclude Mr Joe Nkuna, because you have just told us that he was at a certain house some 40 metres away so he was not, you do not include him as one of the people who took strategic positions around the house. I understood you to say that a short while ago.  Am I right?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, you are correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why during your trial, why did you say that you and Joe Nkuna stood, took positions in front of Shabangu's house on the street?

DERICK SKOSANA: Not in front of Shabangu's house.  I was the one who was in front of Shabangu's house, Joe was on the other side of the road.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, this is what, how the record reads.  The Magistrate says page, paginated page 12, typed page 11,
"Hy ..."
meaning you,
"... sowel as beskuldigde twee ..."
meaning Joe Nkuna,
"... was in die straat voor die huis.  Beskuldigde twee .."
meaning Joe,
"... om toesig te hou oor die aangeleentheid."
I should repeat that for purpose of interpretation.   I am not so sure whether I was too fast.
"He ..."
that means you,
"... as well as accused number two ..."
meaning Joe Nkuna,
"... were in the street in front of the house."
Did you understand that.

DERICK SKOSANA: Maybe the Magistrate misunderstood me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And another thing, yesterday when it was put to you that Mr Nkuna could not run or something to that effect, you said that or let me put this way.  I am not so sure whether you insisted that he could run or whether you said he could walk fast.  What did you say yesterday?

DERICK SKOSANA: I said he could walk fast.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Does that mean that you are saying that he could not run?

DERICK SKOSANA: I am not sure, I have never seen him running.  I do not know whether he can run or not.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What makes you think that any human being cannot run?  What do you mean by that statement.  It is a strange statement.

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It is a strange statement.

DERICK SKOSANA: I am saying I do not know whether he can run, but what I can tell is that I have never seen him running.  Even that day he did not run, we walked.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, on that day did you not know that he had received injuries in his, in the attack on himself?

DERICK SKOSANA: He told us and he told us as if it is something which happened long time ago.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did he, that night, did you think he could run.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, I thought so.  Yes, I thought he could run.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, why yesterday, why did you not say, well, he can run?  Why did you choose to say he can walk fast?

DERICK SKOSANA: It is because that night he walked, he did not run.  If we ran I will say he can run.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But he did not walk fast either?

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He did not walk fast either that day.

DERICK SKOSANA: He did, we all did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: After the attack?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, of course.

ADV DE JAGER: But you were running ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Since we were taking a short cut and we did not want to alert other people who were from a distance from that house which we just attacked.  We just ran from that house.  When we reached the area where Joe was standing we decided to walk so that we do not alert other people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr ...

MR SHWAKANE: Shwakane.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Shwakane, I am sorry.  Mr Shwakane, are there any witnesses that you are to call on behalf of the applicant?

MR SHWAKANE: No, we do not have, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Any, any.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Skosana, sorry to be taking you back.  In your evidence in mitigation you stated to the Magistrate that when you got to Mr Nkuna's house with Solly there were other Comrades who were staying at Mr Nkuna's house.  Is that correct?

DERICK SKOSANA: That is correct.  I was referring to Conrad, Mr Nkuna's brother, and Derrick Mnisa and there was another Comrade as well who disappeared before the execution of this operation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just confine yourself to my question.  Apart from Conrad who is related to Mr Nkuna, were there other Comrades who were staying at Mr Nkuna's house?

DERICK SKOSANA: I think Derick was the only one who was there according to the information which we had and this other Comrade use to come even though he was not staying at Joe's house, but he use to come often.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you got there did you find other people staying at Mr Nkuna's house?  That is the gist of my question.  I think I cannot simplify it enough.

DERICK SKOSANA: Derick was staying there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the other person that disappeared was also there when you got to Mr Nkuna's house?

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you arrived with Solly ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... at Mr Nkuna's house ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... did you find other people staying with him?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, Derick.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it only Derick?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And not the other person who subsequently disappeared?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he not there when you got there?  Was he there, that person?

DERICK SKOSANA: That is the attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, when you arrived with Solly ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... at Mr Nkuna's house ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, he was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you want to put any questions in re-examination?

MR SHWAKANE: No, no questions, Mr Chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, obviously no witnesses from the victims side, Mr.

ADV TEE: No, there is no further evidence to be lead from victims or from our side at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well then that concludes the evidence.  Mr Tee, you indicated that you wanted to argue.

ADV TEE: Mr Chair we will be ready to argue if we may just, perhaps, have the tea break now and we will be able to start after tea.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Alright, we will adjourn then until after tea.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Before you start with your argument, Mr Tee, with reference to the, this distance estimated by the witness earlier on that that is the distance between the house of Mr Shabangu and the point where Mr Joe Nkuna was.  You will recall that we said we would provisionally accept the distance as being about 110m.  During the adjournment we asked somebody to determine the distance with more precision and we are told that the distance is about 110 metres.

ADV TEE: Mr Chair, Advocate Black and I have verified the distance.  The distance that we have agreed is 32 metres as the estimate.

ADV DE JAGER: What gate are you referring to?

ADV TEE: If one has regard, Mr Chair, to the gates that exist.  The first gate is at the entrance to the building proper, the second gate is at the top of the steps and the third gate is at the exit of the car park where the policemen are.  He was talking about the middle gate at the steps.  If one paces it off, divides it by two, it is approximately 32 metres.  Mr Black and I are in agreement with that distance.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, to the front gate it is 110 metres.

ADV TEE: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that then common cause that, then that is the distance?  Do we record now 30, how much?

ADV TEE: 32.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: 32 Metres.  Mr Shwakane.

MR SHWAKANE: Yes, I am satisfied.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: 32 Metres.

MR SHWAKANE: 32.