Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bizos, I think your R1 has got volume 1 until volume 5, would you please indicate what volume the page number you have referred us to, is?

GEORGE BIZOS: R1, volume 6.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am sorry.  Page 667.

JUDGE WILSON: What is the first line on the page Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: On the page, "after you returned from Cape Town."

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, is Mr Bizos referring to page 667 in brackets or what page number?  In brackets, page 667?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Now, it has already been put to a State witness and I want to put it to you as well that accused 1 does not know how that exhibit came into his possession, but in all probability it was with the Patriot or picked up with the Patriot at your house,  do you say that that is possible, impossible, what is your comment thereon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is possible Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "No, it is possible, every week I get extra Patriots, I have a mailing list etc.
		But I thought that you told us that you told your wife that you had given the list to Kuba?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't explain that Mr Chairman, this is my wife's testimony, not mine.

GEORGE BIZOS: So whilst you sat there, you knew that your wife was not speaking the truth to the Judge President and the assessors?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was in a state where I sat in that court room totally bewildered by everything that was happening around me.	If my wife testified to this extent, I know that I gave the list to Kuba Walus and I am before this Committee Mr Chairman, not my wife.  I am the amnesty applicant and I am telling this Committee that I gave Walus the statement, the address list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But you see Mr Derby-Lewis, I want to ask you a general question first.  These R documents were not disclosed by you, R1, 2, 3, 4 were not disclosed by you but by us.  I want to ask you this, have you changed your evidence in any way as a result of the documents becoming available which tend to show that your previous statements were false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have explained where there are discrepancies in the evidence Mr Chairman, and I am here to tell the truth because I realise that without telling the truth I am not going to get amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Let us see whether you are telling the truth about what happened in court.  You know that you handed the list over to Walus, you hear your wife in her evidence saying that he must have got it by mistake, mixed up with Patriots.  Surely that thing isn't the sort of detail that one would forget, is it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I can't answer that question.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am sure not.  Let's go on to other matters.

JUDGE WILSON: Isn't it fair Mr Bizos, to make it clear, as I understand the evidence that the evidence had already been given by Walus to this effect and this was counsel putting to Mrs Derby-Lewis Walus' version?

GEORGE BIZOS: (microphone not switched on)

JUDGE WILSON: Well, wasn't this put on his behalf?  The question seems to be
"Now it has already been put to State witness and I want to put it to you as well, that accused 1, that is Walus, doesn't know how the exhibit came into his possession."

GEORGE BIZOS: Derby-Lewis knows how it came to be in his possession Mr Chairman, and the question is, if he knew how it came to his possession, how did he come to sit there when his wife, whom he had told that he had given it to Walus, was saying that it must have been by mistake, mixed up with Patriots?
	That is really the ground of my ...

JUDGE WILSON: She was saying that it was possible that Walus'- the version put on Walus' behalf, was correct.  Does it go any further than that Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: I will take that point and rephrase the question.

JUDGE WILSON: It was put by Mr Jordaan, was he not counsel for Mr Walus?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but what I am going to put to you Mr Derby-Lewis, is this, that at the trial for the protection of your wife, false evidence was given as to how Walus came to get the list when you knew that you had handed it over to him.  Have you any comment on that?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, it is  not understood, who gave the false evidence?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mrs Derby-Lewis.  Mrs Derby-Lewis, knowing as a result of what you told her, that you had given the list to Walus, was saying that he must have got it by mistake amongst the Patriots.   Have you any explanation in relation to that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I have not Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not give the evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let me give you an opportunity to go through the record so that we do not have any misunderstandings over the weekend and we will come, we will revert to how your trial was conducted and how much of the truth came out there and how much of that untruth is being transferred into this hearing.  But we will postpone that until Monday Mr Derby-Lewis.
	What I want to say to you in the next 15 minutes is the following - that you say that you acted on behalf of the Conservative Party, is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And in support of Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: On behalf of and in support of.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And of not only the Conservative Party, but also the broad Right, the Afrikaner.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's deal with the Conservative Party and if there were other people that you want to make responsible, we can deal with them individually.
	Now, are you aware of the fact that Mr Hartzenberg sitting there in front, made a statement after your arrest in a television programme specifically distancing the Conservative Party from any assassination and that it was not the policy of the Conservative Party to kill people.  Did you see that tape?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I have never seen it.

GEORGE BIZOS: An opportunity will be given to you to see it, but take it as a given.  What I also want you to take as a given is the following.  Your congress was in November 1992 in Kimberley was it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, it wasn't Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: August, I beg your pardon.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was in August.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, you will see why I thought November, in August, yes, and the speech at the Monument was made when?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In October Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: In October of what year?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Of the same year.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, do you recall, do you know the man who is a member of Parliament called Botha?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Are you referring to Mr Koos Botha?

GEORGE BIZOS: Koos Botha, that is the one.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I know him.

GEORGE BIZOS: He is the one who blew up a school here in Pretoria.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: He too relied on those two documents as having been the source of his belief that he was acting on behalf of the Conservative Party, do you recall that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was your political office when he committed that crime?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't remember when the crime was, if you will just refresh my memory Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will give you the precise date in a moment because it was recorded.  Where were you in 1992, were you in the house or in the President's Council?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No Mr Chairman, I was a member of the President's Council.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were members of the President's Council members of the caucus of the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: They were Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you attend caucus meetings regularly?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not all of them Mr Chairman, because by the very nature of my President's Council membership I only, the President's Council only used to sit for two weeks of every month.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you recall being party to a decision whether to support or oppose the Indemnity Bill, not the Act that the Committee is dealing with, but with the Indemnity Bill?