Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you in any way involved in the shooting incident which took place on that same night on the South African side of the border?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No Chairperson.  While it may have been a simultaneous incident, there was separate planning and execution.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you knew that there would be a shooting incident on the other side?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you are then requesting amnesty for the murder of this one person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And any other judgement emanating from that?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: As well as for any illegal act which may emanate from the incident?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Prinsloo, any questions?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Botha, during your period of service at the Security Branch in Piet Retief, were you involved in investigations during which members of the ANC or MK were involved in various acts of violence?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Before these events?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

MR JANSEN: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knight?

MR KNIGHT: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: No questions, thank you Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairperson, I have a slight problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the quality of the photocopying, with that
line across the middle?

MR MOERANE: If somebody can just tell me what is under the, what the words are under that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my copy is the same as yours Mr Moerane, it appears it is the same with all three of ours.  Ms Van der Walt, is there an unblemished statement?

MS VAN DER WALT: I've just got the one that my client's got, but he has written a sentence at the top, but he testified as to what he ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, all Mr Moerane wants to know, if you take a look at paragraph 2.

MS VAN DER WALT: I can just read it to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 2, yes, and perhaps if you can just read it slow enough for Mr Moerane and others to write it down, the obliterated part.  It says ...

MS VAN DER WALT: I know what it is, I will read it.
"... after they had taken the MK members over the RSA border ...",
	have you got that Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Yes, if you can just proceed slowly thereafter.

MS VAN DER WALT: "... we made an attempt to arrest them."

MR MOERANE: Is that the end of the sentence?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Thank you very much.

MS VAN DER WALT: Have you got
"... however, they had firearms."
	Have you got that?
"... shots were fired in the dark and we also fired."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, we've got that section.

MR MOERANE: Thank you.   Mr Botha, one of the rules that a policeman follows is taking instructions from his superiors, not so?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And those instructions have to be in very clear terms so that you know precisely what is expected of you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: What were your instructions with regard to this mission?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, it was to go over and according to my opinion, as I understood it, if there was an opportunity to arrest, we would arrest the person primarily to prevent that we do not endanger the rest of the operation while the persons were still under way to the border.  And if the option presented itself on the other side, we would also shoot these persons.

MR MOERANE: It is not quite clear to me what your instructions were, just tell us in very simple language what your instructions were.  Were your instructions to kill these people or were your instructions to arrest them because the two differ totally?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, there wasn't one single instruction according to my opinion, there were two.  We could arrest them if the circumstances allowed, and if the circumstances did not allow it, we would shoot to kill.

MR MOERANE: Is there any reason why you did not mention that part, shoot to kill, in your statement?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, if I could just ask a question, I can't, are you saying Mr Botha and I gather this also from the evidence of Mr Ras and Mr Tait and Mr Van Dyk, that if they had left a guard at the vehicle while the other two went off with the people who were to infiltrate, you would have arrested that guard because you couldn't have shot him because the noise would have alerted the people on their way to the border and that would have affected the whole operation, is that what you are saying?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct, we would try to arrest if it was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take the scene, they do leave a guard and they go off and you arrest a person there, what are you going to do with this arrested person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: We couldn't arrest him, we would have to abduct him to the RSA for further interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: But you might also have to kill him because he would just have to open his mouth while he is in your control and that would also give away your position when the others came back?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, we did not discuss this issue under those circumstances there, but I don't believe we would have killed him, that wasn't part of our instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem unlikely that you would have, you would say to him "keep quiet" and just rely on him keeping quiet while the others returned?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: We might possibly have to do that if we arrested him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Mr Botha, Were your instructions not very clear that you had to eliminate these people?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: According to my understanding it was very clear, if we could not arrest, we had to take them out.  We had to shoot.

MR MOERANE: Just for the record, your statement is one of those that was made at Delmas?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: On the 12th of December?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It may have been the 12th Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: On page 251 it says the 12th of December, Delmas.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, yes, if it is the 12th, I cannot recall whether I signed it on the 12th or whether I made the statement on the 12th.  I visited Delmas twice, the first time when I made the statement, to consult with my legal representatives and then two or three days later, I returned to sign the statement.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that you did not try to arrest any of these people?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, we did not attempt to arrest them.

MR MOERANE: Why did you say that you made an attempt to arrest them?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It was presented incorrectly, I remember that I wrote something there because no attempt was made to arrest, it was more to the effect that we would make an attempt if we could, or if we had to.

MR MOERANE: How long have you been a member of the South African Police Force?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: 26 years.

MR MOERANE: And I take it you have made many statements, many affidavits in the course of your ...

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, I made many.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and I take it you read them carefully before you sign them or attest them?