Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: We continue with the hearing.  When we adjourned yesterday, it was for Mr Williams to put any questions he may have, to Gen Webb.

EDWARD WEBB: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?
MR WILLIAMS
	Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I think I have been covered to a great extent, by Mr Bizos.  I have got no further questions.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Williams.  Mr Hockey?

MR HOCKEY: I've got no questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any re-examination?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Certain aspects, Mr Chairman.  General, arising from the questions from the side of the Committee, I get the impression that the Committee finds it strange that you are presented as the Commanding Officer of Special Forces, but you don't take the trouble to study the files of personnel and about all the authorisations, could you please explain to the Committee what the situation was at that stage in the country, and what your position was?

EDWARD WEBB: Mr Chairperson, to sketch the situation in the country, in October 1984 the President, he had already employed the South African Defence Force, there was a State of Emergency in October, October 1985 and in June 1986.  In the publications of the State of Emergency, there was many additional powers given to the Special Forces, which showed how serious the situation was internally.  The country was burning.  We still had to act, we could not end our operations.  As far as my own situation is concerned, it came from a conventional power, we had to adapt against anti-insurgents, but above that, there was Special Forces and that is a further fine tuning of these anti-insurgent operations.
	Furthermore, I had to brief myself as far as covert operations were concerned, something that was completely new to me.  There was no course in the Army as far as covert operations were concerned.  My own priorities with Special Forces was firstly the uniform part, established units, busy with operations, operations planning, my second priority was the CCB externally which was also established, busy with operations, planning of new operations and CCB internally as third priority.
	The workload, all the regiments had to brief me.

MR H DU PLESSIS: The regiments did not come to you, you had to go to them and it took a lot of time?

EDWARD WEBB: The CCB had to brief me, I had to visit certain places.  I was also involved in meetings with the general staff.  Tasks emerging from those meetings, there were also visitors from overseas we had to handle and I also had various social responsibilities that I had to see to.
	If I look at matters now with hindsight, then I was actually dealing with a crisis management situation.

MR H DU PLESSIS: The terrorist war or struggle as we knew it at that stage, did not grind to a halt to give you the opportunity to first reorientate yourself and establish yourself and familiarise yourself with your now posts, it actually escalated in intensity and continued?

EDWARD WEBB: That is correct.

MR H DU PLESSIS: The CCB, you have already testified, was just a small part of Special Forces?  How many Regions were there of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: If I remember correctly, there were nine Regions.

MR H DU PLESSIS: You have also testified before the Committee that you met with Col Verster for about an hour per week, specifically dealing with the CCB aspect of Special Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: On average, yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: If you take the nine Regions and I calculate correctly, it relates to about six and a half minutes per Region, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: And then you further have the situation that of those nine Regions, eight were established Regions, with many projects on the go which perhaps you would have to discuss in more detail than Region 6, which was only in its infancy, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Would I be correct in saying that more time would be devoted to the other Regions, than to Region 6?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, more to Special Forces Uniform and then to the eight Regions and then Region 6.

MR H DU PLESSIS: In Region 6, there was no necessity to report to you before something had materialised, which could be made into some kind of a project?

EDWARD WEBB: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: (Microphone not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you can just watch the leading aspect.

GEORGE BIZOS: Really, we must have some (microphone not on)

MR H DU PLESSIS: Would there have been any reason for Mr Verster to report regarding Region 6, to you in detail?

EDWARD WEBB: If any monitoring had been authorised by him, he wouldn't have to report to me about the monitoring.

MR H DU PLESSIS: If the monitoring had required something else which was to develop into an operation?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mr Webb?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson.  General, the period when, I will say the transition before Jaap Joubert left and you took over, you said there was a period when you were together, were you sort of in a situation of an office, sitting together in an office?

EDWARD WEBB: Some of the times, yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And what would be your duties during that period when you were with him, was it the full orientation or was it ...

EDWARD WEBB: It was to orientate myself, I had no responsibilities at that stage, just for orientation of myself.

MR SIBANYONI: Where was that office situated?

EDWARD WEBB: In Pretoria, at the Headquarters of Special Forces.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you aware or do you understand the requirements of this Act, that the Commission has to establish as full a picture as possible of the conflict of the past?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, I do.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you say you have told the Commission everything in so far as the policies, the procedures of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I think I have, yes.

MR SIBANYONI: You are aware that there will be no other opportunity or platform in the future, to talk about this, is the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I understand that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.   Did I understand your evidence correctly that during this hand-over phase, that Gen Joubert didn't brief you on any current operations?

EDWARD WEBB: That is correct.

MR LAX: And that wasn't because there weren't any on the go, he just didn't brief you on that?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I was taken to the Regiments, and they briefed me on the operations.

MR LAX: So, in his hand-over to you, during that month when you were sitting with him, trying to understand what your new job was going to entail, he didn't take you through any of the projects that were ongoing, he didn't take you through for example this new Region 6 and say "this is what we intend to do, this is what is has been established for, this is what it is likely to be doing"?

EDWARD WEBB: No, again, I was briefed by Gen Verster regarding Region 6.

MR LAX: So, did Verster give you a complete briefing of all the operations?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR LAX: And that included Region 6?

EDWARD WEBB: That included Region 6.

MR LAX: Did it include what their planning was?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, what perhaps could have been foreseen for the future.

MR LAX: It would have included their global budget?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR LAX: Because they had a most peculiar way of budgeting, they wrote off their funds in advance?    You already told us?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, a year ahead.

MR LAX: Yes.

EDWARD WEBB: Budgeted a year ahead, which was quite unusual.