Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Kroma for your very comprehensive testimony.  I think it has added to our understanding of  the way things were not only in Oudtshoorn but in the area all around in that period.
 The people whom you have names will be given an opportunity to  tell us  anything they may want to tell us and particularly in the case of your experience in Kwanobuhle our investigators will work together with  our - their fellow investigators for the Truth Commission in the Eastern Cape to do what you have asked to try and peruse more than simply the people who - who were involved, because our -  one of our major aims is  precisely to try and find out what the truth is in regard to that situation.
 I wanted also to ask you - you probably have answered already to Dr Ally but the next person we will be hearing from is the mother of  Michael Lucas, and so before we go onto that, I just wondered if there was any more light you could shed on that whole episode.
MR

KROMA: Well there is -  there is not  much that I can reveal you know  with the case of Michael Lucas, but I think to me you  see I - we left Oudtshoorn together with Michael for Uitenhage, precisely because of running away from being detained.  And we landed in Uitenhage where we were caught together and I was present when  Michael was caught.
 And I was further made to make a statement that was implicating Michael in the - in the whole thing.  Michael was tried and sentenced and hanged, you see I  feel as if I  also was part of the whole thing you  know at the end.  So to me because I was -  I was following that case very close - precisely because of  my closeness with Michael firstly and also with his - with his  final being captured.
 And I personally do not think that there was justice in the case as it is.  I am not a lawyer, I mean I don't know precisely what is happening around that  [indistinct] but I think I know  justice when it comes to justice.  And I don't think that there was justice in the case firstly because I think the statement itself was not  made by someone who  wanted to make a statement.  He was made to do a statement.
 I mean the very same thing that they did to  me, that they were able to do to me to  force me into a situation where I had - where I made a statement, they could have easily have done that to Michael because they tortured him that's what they did.
 Then also if one looks at the fact of the case if you go and  [indistinct] it, there was very  little that made them to find Michael guilty.  In fact what made them to find Michael guilty was the fact that the age that he mentioned was not the correct age, they went to test his teeth and find out that the teeth - his teeth  were not of some - somebody who is the very same age as he is.   
 Because he was lying with his age, the State took it that he was lying to everything that he mentioned at the end of the day.  That's how he was hanged. ... end of Tape 2  , side B   ...

MARY BURTON: Thank you, you also said that Ms Madikane is your  mother - did you mean she really is your  mother or in the broader sense.

MR KROMA: She is my aunty but she is my mother, I grew up  with her - I stayed with her and I've done everything with her.

MARY BURTON: She is your aunt, but she is your mother - yes and the Mxolise whom you referred to, is that her son.

MR KROMA: Yes.

MARY BURTON: Yes, and I just find myself in the situation of Ms Madikane having given her testimony and now  sitting here listening to your own experience - and once again I'd like to thank you and comment her for her courage and to thank you too, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mayor, we - well first of  all I mean we - we are thrilled I mean that the change that has happened enables people like yourself with your abilities and your experience now  to be at the head of the community.
 But what I wanted to indicate to you and to the general public is that the Commission has called on various  organisations including political  parties to make submissions to the Commission and as a consequence most of the major parties are going to be making those submissions in which they will be seeking to point out what their policies were - what their objectives were and what methods they used to achieve those objectives.
 Included in that is going to be and we have already begun the process is for instance calling on people in the Security Forces, the people who gave orders and so on that they too should be making submissions in which we hope we will be able to answer some of the questions that you - you raised about the fact that it should not just be the so-called foot soldiers, who are made to carried the can, that those high up in the line of  command should also have an opportunity of letting us know what they were about and I  think I mean your concern is  a very legitimate one where it could be possible for  lower ranking persons to be made to bear the brunt and be the one's who take full blame. 
 Whereas the people who gave the orders might then have - as it were got away with it.  But we are intending to find out the truth and part of that truth is perhaps  a very important part is who gave the instructions and Dr Ramashala was pointing to the fact that we have been asked to see whether there is a pattern that can be see - a pattern of repression,  of torture whatever.
 And the Act requires that we should find out whether there were deliberate policy positions with regard to repression and so on.  And so we - it is not as if we are -  we are not as it were engaging in some people thought we would, in a witch hunt, we are seeking to find out the truth to be able to see the whole picture as much as possible, because that again is what we are asked to do to try and give as full a picture as possible of the Human Rights Violations which happened as a result of the conflict of the past.
 But thank you very much.

MR KROMA: Thank you.