Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MR VAN WYK: Now whilst you were on the parapet Sir did you receive any information that the marchers were shooting at the other guards at the corners of Plein and King George Streets?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I had said yes before. That I did gather information from Joe Mababy earlier at our meeting.

MR VAN WYK: No I don't think you are understanding my question. I am not talking about the meeting in the morning. I am talking about at the stage when you were on the parapet and the shooting started. Did you receive any information that shots were fired at your colleagues and the guards at the corners of King George and Plein Streets?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I know where you are referring. I think that was made by an interpreter in court. It is an error which is (...indistinct) I know what you are talking about. That when I was there I had the information but in court I was testifying in zulu. So it is just it is written like that but what I was saying actually is an impression. I know what you are referring to. It is just an error which is written here.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Llale please answer the question. He wants the explanation about your evidence at the inquest. You will be given an opportunity.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman apparently one of the persons or one of the victims just received a kind of epileptic attack. Would it at all be possible to adjourn at this stage? Merely to see that we can get him some kind of attention.

CHAIRPERSON: We will stand down for a short while.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
ON RESUMPTION

MR VAN WYK: Mr Llale my last question addressed to you was that whilst you were on the parapet, whilst the shots were fired I asked you whether you received any information that there were shots being fired at other people? In other words the guards at the corners of King George and Plein Street. Did you receive such information?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No.

MR VAN WYK: Did you testify as such at the (...intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr van Wyk? Mr Llale don't you think you should continue rendering your testimony in your language, zulu?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I will render my evidence in zulu.

MR VAN WYK: I will then repeat the question so that they interpret it in your mother language. Whilst you were on the parapet and the shots being fired did you receive any information that shots were being fired towards Plein Street? In other words where your colleagues Mr Kruser and the other guards were at the corners of Plein and King George Street. Did you receive any such information whilst you were on the parapet?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No I heard no information.

MR VAN WYK: Did you testify as such at the inquest?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Why did you render such evidence if you did not receive such information why did you also tender that evidence?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I will like to go back and refer you to something. When I was before Judge Nugent I was using Zulu as I am using Zulu now. In my statement when I read it there is something like after they shot the parapet I immediately got other information that they were shooting at our people. So I am saying it is just a way that it is appearing on the paper. But what I was actually saying is that there was that impression that the guards were being shot. That is what I said in zulu.

MR VAN WYK: Do I then understand you correctly, you did not receive the information that the other guards were being shot at?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I did not get any information. It was just that is the impression I had when I heard gun shots.

MR VAN WYK: Because I want to ask your comment please and
I am referring to page 3698 of the transcript of your evidence.
And I would like to know from you why you then testified as 
follows, namely it is at the bottom of page 3698: 		
"I was confused and at that stage I could see the
marchers armed with pistols and shooting towards
Plein Street and I immediately got other information 
that they were shooting at our people."
Why did you then give such evidence if this is not what you received?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I am saying to the Committee I was using Zulu at the court. The words information in Zulu meant something I was talking about the impression I had was the shooting not that I said in English "information." I was only saying "impression." In other words I was giving that kind of a picture of impression not information.

MR VAN WYK: So do you then say the transcript is not correct?

CHAIRPERSON: The translation might not have been correct not the transcript.

MR VAN WYK: The translation, thank you Mr Commissioner. Because I asked you Mr Llale before you came to testify did you read the record and did you prepare it and was it correct and I understood you to say yes that is what was said at the inquest. Did I understand you wrongly there?

MOSES VELI LLALE: You asked me about the evidence I tendered at the court and I said it was true but there were some contradictions. That is how I answered you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes let's proceed.

MR VAN WYK: On this day you were issued with a shotgun and I want to know from you your function on the parapet. Was that for crowd control?

MOSES VELI LLALE: My function was to be at the parapet to patrol there and if there is something that I noticed as dangerous to us I should report immediately to Chris.

MR VAN WYK: But did you use the shotgun for crowd control?

MOSES VELI LLALE: What I said is the shotgun was good in crowd controlling.

MR VAN WYK: Then surely it depends on what type of ammunition you are using. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: And what type of ammunition were you using?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I used SSG.

MR VAN WYK: Are those bullets good for crowd control or do they kill?

MOSES VELI LLALE: All kinds of ammunition kill depending on the distance.

MR VAN WYK: Help me if I am wrong but the second shot that you fired at this man with the AK47 that was whilst he was retreating. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Do you concede that at that stage he was no more a danger to you?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At the time when I was shooting he was still posing danger to me because he still had that gun in his possession. In my mind I thought that he wanted some place of rescue where he could hide.

MR VAN WYK: Now you have made an affidavit that was attached to your application for amnesty. When you signed that affidavit were you satisfied with the contents thereof?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: You had no complaints. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I had no complaint.

MR VAN WYK: You never raised it with your lawyers that there is something in your statement that you do not totally agree with. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Maybe I am not responding correctly. When you are referring to the affidavit are you talking to the one that I submitted to the court or here the TRC?

MR VAN WYK: The one that you made firstly for the purpose of the inquest and which was attached to your amnesty application.

MOSES VELI LLALE: If you are referring to that one I think now I am.

MR VAN WYK: Will you look at page 109 up to page 112 of bundle C1. I am referring to that statement.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I did not understand your question quite well. But now I am in a position to answer you. After I submitted my affidavit, after the lawyers had taken it with I think it is in number 11, no it is number 12 I am mistaken I am sorry - where I am saying I have generalised. The fact that the marchers were shooting and running forward. After then I asked about the word "shooting at the crowd," won't that give me a problem?

MR VAN WYK: ...(inaudible) to give an additional statement?

MOSES VELI LLALE: They said I will have an opportunity to tell the Court about everything I am thinking about.

MR VAN WYK: But at that stage almost three years had lapsed since the incident before you made the statement. Is that not so?