Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As I said, Mr Chairman, I cannot place the gentleman, but it is quite possible that I have met him during the course of my activities in Krugersdorp.

CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about Commandant Roodt or the man Visser?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: About Commandant Roodt, yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Well, do you know J M Visser, A J?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman.  The name does not press a face before me, ...

UNKNOWN: Well, ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... but, as I say, once again, I may know him when I see him.

UNKNOWN: Well, he will apparently appear in support of this and you will see him and we can, perhaps, take it up then?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is fine, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: But let us concentrate on Commandant Roodt.  Do you know a person called Roodt or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As I said, Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: He said he knows several people by that name.

UNKNOWN: Well, tell us who the Roodts are that you know?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Fine, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: How many Roodts do you know?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I ...

UNKNOWN: Let us start with number one.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I do not even ...

UNKNOWN: Which Roodt do you know?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, please.  I have already stated that I am not even sure if I know this Commandant Roodt.  I did not talk about the Roodts, I spoke about this Commandant Roodt.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I do not know whether I know him.

UNKNOWN: Do you know anybody who prides himself in the name of Roodt?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I cannot remember offhand, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You cannot remember?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

UNKNOWN: You cannot remember coupling the name Roodt with any person that you can think of at the moment?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: We will look into that ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Good.

UNKNOWN: ... a little further later.  Edwin Clarke, who is Edwin Clarke?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Edwin Clarke, Mr Chairman, I know from his willingness to come along to my home and to repair my computer and my wife's computed whenever it developed some sort of a bug or another.

UNKNOWN: And the person who regularly appears, whose name regularly appears in your wife's diary?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is right, Mr Chairman, in connection with computer matters.

UNKNOWN: And, at any rate, we hear that he is a bachelor and he use to come for breakfast and other little ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, ...

UNKNOWN: ... conveniences.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and he was not the only bachelor who use to come for breakfast.

UNKNOWN: Yes, well, let us confine ourselves to him and we will look into the others later.
"Edwin Clarke received the cheque for the person by the name of Dillus and who worked at JCI.".
Now, you see, if this statement is correct, Clarke was not a, just an ordinary person coming for breakfast and looking after the computers, he received a stolen cheque from JCI for the sum of R369 182,56.  Have you got any knowledge about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I have not, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Did nobody ever mention this to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Never, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: We will deal with it later.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it a stolen cheque, Mr Bizos, or did he ...

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon?

JUDGE WILSON: Was it a stolen cheque or did Mr Clarke steal it?

UNKNOWN: No, it was a ...

JUDGE WILSON: "Mr Clarke then decided to use the funds.".  It appears Mr Clarke decided not to pay the money to where it should have gone, but to use it for some other purpose.

UNKNOWN: The rest of it shows that, well, I take the point, but for my purposes either interpretation is correct, but thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have no objection, whatsoever, to Mr Bizos producing this document and questioning me regarding this, what appears in this document.  No objection whatsoever.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Derby-Lewis.  Now, he is a person who either received a cheque or the proceeds of the cheque.  You know nothing about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Nothing at all, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: "These funds would originally go to the
Volksvront for the purchase of two-way radios.".
Did you know anything about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, if my memory serves me correctly, the Volksvront was formed after my arrest.  So, I do not know how that could possibly be true and I certainly have no knowledge of it.

UNKNOWN: You did not know about anybody wanting to use stolen money for two-way radios?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: "Mr Clarke then decided to utilise the funds for the legal costs of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.".
	You do not know anything about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Nothing, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: "As already known to the Committee, he applies for amnesty for the murder on Mr Chris Hani of the ANC."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.
"I personally was against the murder of Mr Hani, because we had positive information that Mr Hani and Mrs Winnie Mandela wished to establish together a political party.".
Now, if this is correct, it would appear that this Mr Visser knew about the talk or plans to kill Mr Hani.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Visser knew nothing about plans to kill Mr Hani, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: I see and he says that he was against it.  Did anybody, did you get knowledge of anybody in the, among the rightists that they were against the murder of Hani for the reasons stated by Mr Visser?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, he said "ek, persoonlik", Mr Chairman.  He did not say anything about the right.

UNKNOWN: And that there were, at least, it is clear that there were discussions?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Would he discuss this matter with himself.  Is that what Mr Bizos is suggesting, Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: Oh, no, what I am suggesting is that the statement clearly indicates that there may have been, there must have been discussions if he expressed that he was against this for the reasons that he states.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I cannot comment on that, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: "It would have the effect that particularly the youth would vote for them.  I reported to Commandant Roodt to this effect.  Roodt then also, himself, took control of this operation and saw to it that the funds would not go to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.".
Do you know anything about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Now, do you say that this, was it generally known that Mr Clarke was a regular visitor to your house to persons such as Mr Visser and others in right wing circles?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I had no idea of any connection that Mr Clarke had with anybody, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: "Mr Chris Hani was murdered on 10 April 1992.".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I would like to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that Mr Bizos has conveniently missed one sentence here.  After the sentence which says,
"Roodt himself took control of this operation and saw to it that the funds did not go to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.",
and then the next sentence is,
"the cheque was originally banked on 30 March 1993."

UNKNOWN: I am sorry, please assure, let me assure you that I am going to ask you lots of questions about that and I did not leave it out deliberately.  I had a mark and I thought that I had read it, but let me ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: ... let me come.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Clive-Derby Lewis,
"The cheque was originally banked on 30 March 1993.".
You know nothing about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I, my question is that if this cheque was supposed to cover my legal costs and it was banked on the 30th of March 1993, how would they know I was going to incur any legal costs?

UNKNOWN: Well, you may, well let me ask you this, did you not think of the possibility that Mr Walus may be arrested?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because ...

UNKNOWN: And did you not think of the possibility that you may be arrested?