Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR VISSER: But how then can you give the evidence that he did, if you don't know anything about it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I say he was going to tell them.  The time he was going to tell them, I wouldn't know who were those people because I was not present so I didn't say how many targets.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mr Ngo, I want to put it to you that this story of yours is precisely what it is, it's a story which you dreamt up and doesn't exist in fact.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If a person who doesn't understand, who doesn't know it's you because I know how the security branch was working and the whole channels of our communications, how they worked.  I know that if a person was supposed to be targeted, how he should be targeted.  If you knew, if you were involved in my work you would know what I'm talking about.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Ngo, you're free to be personal with me if you wish but let me tell you what I'm going to suggest to you, you heard, did you not, or you read in his application that Mr Motsamai is going to apply for amnesty ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't say I read his application ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Just listen to me, just listen to me please, just listen.  I haven't finished, I'm allowing the interpreter to interpret to you.  I say that you know that Mr Motsamai's applying for amnesty for an attempted murder and I believe it is item 13 Mr Chairman, where he says that the riot squad was asked to shoot somebody and I'm just going to look for precisely which item it is.  If I can just find Mr Motsamai's application form.  It's bundle A and Mr Chairman, it would be - no it's not item 13, item 7 at page 147 Mr Ngo, just look at that.  Have you got that in front of you?  Yes, you do.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Bundle?

MR VISSER: Yes, bundle A.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which page?

MR VISSER: 147.
"I and Mamome also organised that members of the uniform branch should shoot Citi Mzuzwana's younger brother - note, not Matthew, Zwelinzima Mzuzwana.  The latter was a member of Mangaung Youth Congress and a COSAS organiser"
You knew that Mr Motsamai is applying for amnesty for that incident, didn't you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I'm reading this for the first time.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Ngo, you knew that very well - I put it to you.  And that's the reason why you've come out with the story which you've just done.  And let me put to you that you've got your characters mixed up because you are saying that this relates to Mr Matthews Mzuzwana whilst it seems that Mr Motsamai disagrees with you.  He relates this to the other brother that has identified himself here today, isn't that true?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I never said that there was an arrangement that Mzuzwana should be shot, I said how Colonel Coetzee arranged with us about the target.  I never said myself, Motsamai or Mamome arranged that Mzuzwana should be shot, I'm telling you about the instructions which we received and about the thing I know, that this was organised by Motsamai.  I don't know how it was arranged that he should be shot but I know that there was the - the arrangements were given to us.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, in all fairness, wouldn't it be possible so that I can get the correct names of Mr Mzuzwana, it might be possible that I didn't get his second name and it might be perhaps the same person we're talking about.  I must confess that I didn't take that name from him as being Zwelinzima but let - if you'll bear with me, I can just ask him whether it's in fact the same person.
	Can Mr Matthews Mzuzwana just rise?  Mr Mzuzwana, what is all your names please, will you just repeat that?

MR MZUZWANA: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: I didn't hear, I can't hear you.

ADV MEMANI: Zwelinjani.

MR STANDER: Please come forward.

ADV MEMANI: He said it's Zwelinjani.

MR STANDER: That's also what I heard Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please repeat your answer, you're full names please?

MR MZUZWANA: Zwelinjani Matthews Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any further questions?

MR VISSER: Could he perhaps spell it Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell it?

MR MZUZWANA: Z-w-e-l-i-n-j-a-n-i.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: I didn't hear it.

MR MZUZWANA: Zwelabantu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know someone, Zwelinzima Mzuzwana?

MR MZUZWANA: No, maybe they misspelt my name, Zwelinzima is not my name.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible]

MR MZUZWANA: Zwelabantu.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I've got a list of the people I represent, unfortunately it hasn't been duplicated but if I might help you I can hand it up so that the correct spelling can known to you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: Do you want me to hand it up?  Although it is written here Matthews Mzuzwana, it seems to me that it is the same person.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, I couldn't care whether it seems to my learned friend that it's the same person, we're going on the evidence here and this man came to you and said it's not my name.

MR STANDER: In all fairness Mr Chairman, it seems to me and I'll make a suggestion to you that you'll find that it is in fact just a misspelling of the same person's name.

MR VISSER: That's a matter for argument Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: In fact Mr Chairman, my learned friend might have forgotten that it was mentioned that the applicant is not so certain of the name of this victim.  At some stage he said it's Zwelinzima or Zwelabantu, he was not so sure.

MR VISSER: Well this applicant hasn't testified yet Mr Chairman, so I don't know when he might have said.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps we should have a look, he says in paragraph 7
"I and Mamome also organised that members of the uniform branch should shoot Citi Mzuzwana's younger brother"
Not his child or his son, Zwelinzima Mzuzwana.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I was coming to that very question right now.
	I'm not sure that I can put this to you Mr Ngo because I don't know whether you know but let me ask you anyway - we'll ask Mr Motsamai, I can assure you.  We were given to understand that these two gentlemen that identified themselves here today, are the children - the son's of Mr Citi Mzuzwana.   Is that how you understand the position?

ADV MEMANI: No, it has never been said Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with great respect, my learned fried Mr Stander went out of his way to say: Mr Ngo you were wrong when you thought Max Makhubalo's home, it was really the parental home of these two gentlemen, the home belonging to Mr Citi Mzuzwana".  Now what else could that possibly mean?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, what I really did say is: "It was the parental home of Mr Citi Mzuzwana", that I referred to.  It might be so that I was mistaken at that stage and I take full responsibility for the fact that I must have misled my learned friend, but in fact the question was put that it was the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it the parental home of the two persons you're representing?

MR STANDER: That is in fact ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] as far as I know Mr Citi Mzuzwana, you're representing his two sons.  ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: Mr de Jager, Mr Chairman, it is in fact so that Citi Mzuzwana is the same person as Zwelabantu Mzuzwana that I referred to.  That we can clarify again if it needs be done.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You have cleared it up, you are saying if you had given the impression that you meant to convey that it was the parental home of you clients, that would have been a mistake on your part.  And you are saying that you meant to say that - you didn't mean that it was the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana, you didn't mean to convey that.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman no, what I did say and I mentioned was that these two people, the Mzuzwana's are in fact brothers and it was their parental home that has been bombed.