Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR NEL: Did you see Spyker Myeza at Winkelspruit base on this day of the incident?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, as far as I know, he was with the other team.

MR NEL: Thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Botha, do you have any questions?  Mr Hugo, sorry?

MR HUGO: 3Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Baker, I just want to get some clarity on the command structures whenever Vlakplaas groups were deployed in an area for instance like Durban.  What were the structures like taking it from the bottom upwards, maybe I should put it differently.  There were groups of askaris that were allocated to a group leader, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And the group leader would be normally a black policeman?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And to whom would this group leader then in turn report?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: To a white group leader Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And what would the rank normally be of that white group leader?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, the ranks were between Sergeant and Lieutenant.

MR HUGO: Yes, and I take it there would then in turn be a Coordinator to whom this particular person would be reporting to?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: At the particular Branch?

MR HUGO: Yes?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And during this incident, can you remember who the different groups were, or let me just put it differently, how many askari groups were deployed here in Durban?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, it was one group and then the Intelligence group if I can refer to the two different ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the group that we are concerned with, as the Intelligence group?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, that is helping with Intelligence operation, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had two different groups of askari's that were not working together in Durban at that time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: One of which was the Intelligence group of which Mr Mbane was one of the members?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Let's concentrate on this particular group, Mr Mbane was one of the members, who were the other members of this group?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, I remember Mr Radebe and I have heard here that Mr Dube was also there, that is however not my recollection, I could not remember him being here, but there was a third person.

MR HUGO: But you can recall that Mr Radebe was the leader of this particular group?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And to whom was he reporting to?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: To Sgt Coetzer.

MR HUGO: And Sgt Coetzer would report to?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: To Capt Botha.

MR HUGO: So they wouldn't report to you as the second in charge of the Vlakplaas contingent?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I was not involved in the operation, I came down as I say to visit the teams and that particular day, I arrived at the facility.  From there, Sgt Coetzer would have spoken to me and I would have spoken to Capt Botha obviously.

MR HUGO: Is it also true that these different groups were each allocated, well in most instances, a vehicle or a kombi?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, Mr Radebe had a kombi.

MR HUGO: Can you remember what the colour of this kombi was at the time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Can you remember what sort of kombi it was?

CHAIRPERSON: Either the make of it or the type? Was it like a taxi or what?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, like a taxi.  It could have been a Mitsubishi, it could have been a Hi-Ace kombi, it could have been a Nissan, Nissan also still made kombi's in those days.

CHAIRPERSON: You say like a taxi in that it was a passenger vehicle?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Was it normal procedure for askaris to liaise directly with say the white Commanders or would they go through the group leader, being in this particular instance, Mr Radebe, when information was obtained?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Normally what they would do is go through the group leaders, I however at this instance, don't know exactly how the operation was run, if they were spoken to individually or together.

MR HUGO: Can I just ask you, how long - well prior to this incident, how long were you in Durban for?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: My recollection is that I had come down a couple of days beforehand.

MR HUGO: Can you recall what Mr Radebe was doing at the time when you arrived here?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I am not sure exactly what you ...

MR HUGO: Well, I am referring to this group that was under the command of Mr Radebe, when you arrived in Durban, what operation was he busy with at the time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: They were involved with the Intelligence operation with Capt Botha.

MR HUGO: And were they working on this particular matter?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: They were working as far as I can recall, solely on this matter.

MR HUGO: Then something else, did you have any contact with informers and when I say informers, I am once more referring to this particular incident, whilst you were here, down in Durban?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: You must have heard that mention was made of an informer whose leg was put in plaster of paris at some stage, did you have any knowledge of that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I heard about it here at this hearing.

MR HUGO: Yes.   And then I just want you to go to page 156, this is Bundle 2, just the last sentence in the first paragraph, it says
"... the askari, still pretending to be an MK member, met with her and she was apprehended by Capt Botha and his team and brought to our base near Amanzimtoti."
	Mr Visser has already asked you, you got this information from Mr Botha, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: No, he said from Taylor.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Sorry, I made a mistake, from Taylor while I was at the base.

MR HUGO: Yes.

MR LAX: With respect, I was puzzled by that when you asked the question, you said Botha.

MR VISSER: His evidence-in-chief was Taylor.

MR LAX: Absolutely, I agree with you, but when you asked the question, you said Botha and I made a note of that to ask him about it later, that is why I am correcting what you are saying.  You actually said Botha and I made a note of that because it was different to his evidence-in-chief.

MR VISSER: I am just trying to be of assistance to show that he said Taylor as well, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: No fair enough, but the point is he spoke to Taylor when he got to the base, that was his evidence-in-chief, however you asked him about speaking to Botha about the nature of the operation and you also asked him about Radebe's, at least Mbane's instructions in that context, you will recall, and at that stage, the clear focus of your questions was Botha, not Taylor.

MR VISSER: No, no, there is no question about that.

MR HUGO: Be it as it may, Mr Baker, for our purposes, it is more important to find out whether you are clear in your mind that reference was made to an askari and not askaris.  Mr Chairman, I recall it as an askari.  When the group arrived at Winkelspruit after Ms Khubeka had been handed over, did you see them arriving there?  Sorry, I may also not be all that clear, I am referring to the group led by Mr Botha?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.  My recollection is when the group arrived, I was sitting in that as they described yesterday, that enclosed portion where the sleeping quarters were, I was sitting there discussing, having a discussion with Mr Taylor about the deployment of the groups and I heard a vehicle pull up, but at that stage I didn't see the vehicle.

MR HUGO: Was it only one vehicle that you heard?