Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR STANDER: Can you spell it for us please?

MR MOLEFE: K H A N Y A.  I am just not familiar with his first name.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that please?

MR MOLEFE: K H A N Y, for New York, A, at the end.

MR STANDER: What happened on the 25th of May 1993?

MR MOLEFE: It was around two o' clock in the morning when I heard a knock, you know, a silent knock at my door of my mukhukhu, an informal settlement and then I just did not respond immediately.  I was alone at home by that time.  I just kept quiet and the knock was persistent.  Then I realised that, no man, whoever is knocking from outside is aware that I am inside, so I asked who are you.  Then someone said, the police, very quietly, the police.  Then I said, at this time of the day, no man, wait outside, up until it is, you know, dawn.  I do not allow visitors at this time of the day, you see.
	No, no, no, I was really not prepared to open.  Then they, well, continued to be quiet, so I was wondering that police are men of force, you know, threatening people, they are so quiet.  Then I went to the windows screaming, opened them and screamed at my next door neighbours, you see, on the left and on the right-hand.  Well, you know, I could not see whether they were, they responded to my call, then I started using,making noise, taking window frames and knocking them against the wall of my mukhukhu, the zinc house, just to attract the attention of the people in the neighbourhood.  
	Well, they were in the meantime, battling with the door and they broke it open, they broke the handle, presently it is without that handle, and they used some tile lever, they thought that it is a door that they could push in, only to find that it is a door that must be pushed, pulled, you know, not pushed in.  So, they broke the handle in the process and they went for a, because they could not open it, they went for a tile lever and forced it open.  
	At that point in time I was in front of the house and now, of the door.   When it opened there were just police here who, you know, leapt into the house, grabbed me and, you know, dragged me outside.

MR STANDER: Did you recognise any of the police officers who were at your home?

MR MOLEFE: Yes, Motsamai, as always.  He has always been there.  I remember even before that time, he would go to stadiums.  I remember I wanted to be familiar with this Celtics, it was then popular, I went to the stadiums.  When I was at the stadiums, Mr Motsamai would always be around there, looking at me.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, could you please assist us in regard to which application, from which applicant is evidence being given, with regard to which deed that was committed?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I am offering evidence with regard to the applicant, Mr Motsamai, due to assaults which took place on this witness.  It was on the 25th of May 1993.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR STANDER: What happened after you were arrested at that house that evening?

MR MOLEFE: I have got to mention that as I was dragged out of the house I sustained an injury on the left knee, because I was thrown and, out and knocked myself against the door and on the ground there were stones in front there, I mean, it is a clay environment there, so I put in, you know, stones.  So, they trampled on me there with the guns levelled against me and thereafter they went into the house and I remember someone calling himself Captain Shaw, if I am not mistaken, who was saying that, okay, they had come to search me and they have got a warrant with them.
MR VISSER OBJECTS

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record before the witness continues.  I am afraid I must now make an objection.  It is our submission that it is not the time nor the place for any alleged victim to come to you and to tell you about being victimised in incidents which have nothing to do with the present applications of the applicants before you.  If you just look at the date in regard to which this evidence is now being presented, 1993, there is not a single application concerning that period of time by either Mr Motsamai or Mr Ngo before you.
	The evidence from the word go, has been entirely irrelevant and now, Mr Chairman, I have an interest in so far as one of the persons for whom I appear, is now being mentioned and that is why you will forgive me that I interrupted the witness to stop him giving further evidence, because the ramifications and implications of this, if he is allowed to continue are clear Mr Chairman.  We are just going to prolong the matter on an issue which is not before you and which is therefore irrelevant.  I object to this evidence, Mr Chairman.

MR MOLEFE: Mr Chairman, I object in my own defence.  When I made an application to the TRC it was not in response to Motsamai.  I did not even know that Motsamai has made an application.  My own conscience made me to make an application and in that application I made mention of events starting from 78 when I was arrested and detained and tortured at John Vorster.  So, I had expected the TRC to investigate from there, because the 93 has got a basis, you know.  It is because of my activism from, I am twenty years deep in the struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not a hearing of the TRC to investigate complaints of victims.  This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee to consider applications for amnesty by Ngo and Motsamai.

MR MOLEFE: My Lord, I am trying to say that ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of this evidence in connection with the two applications before us?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, please help me if I am wrong, but Mr Motsamai testified that on several occasions he assaulted other persons whose names he cannot remember.  It is on, based on this that this evidence was placed before you.  If you tell me today that we must not offer that evidence then I will leave it there.  It is based on that, that this evidence has been placed before you.  I agree that there was not a specific incident after, to which Mr Motsamai referred to as the 25th of May 1993, it is not part of his application, but he also informed the Committee that he assaulted various other persons whose names he cannot even remember and it is based on that, that I have offered this evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no application in respect of this incident in May 1993, is there?

MR STANDER: I agree with that, that specific date does not appear before you.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Motsamai has admitted, has he not, that he assaulted many people?

MR STANDER: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So this evidence is not called to contradict Motsamai who is adopting the line that he only assaulted one person on one case when he asked for amnesty, is it?

MR STANDER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So, I must, I have great difficulty in understanding the relevance of it.  Motsamai says, I assaulted people, I do not know some of their names.  I am not asking for amnesty.  We do not give general amnesty like that.  It has got to be amnesty in respective incidents.

MR STANDER: I understand the argument, the only reason is that it is a confirmation of what Mr Motsamai said, possibly it is seen against that background and when Mr Molefe came forward and said he would like to come and offer evidence in respect of that specific incident and that is why I thought it was relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: But he has just told us, he has told us he wanted to come and give evidence before of the TRC about repeated assaults on him by security policeman.

MR STANDER: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the same thing.

MR MOLEFE: I think, Mr Chairman, it is important to impart this information to you that I also met Mr Motsamai long before he came to you, to say to him that, hey man, you know a lot of what happened to us.  So, in the interest of peace and development in our country, go and make a confession.  Then he said to me he did not do anything, but I said you know.