Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MR LAX: Mr Pretorius it is clear there has been a misunderstanding. It is clear that he wasn't, he is talking about different application forms that he filled in ... well then we know from past experience that people have filled out forms they have been returned, they have been re-submitted. So I mean without engaging in that whole unnecessary waste of time. Let's just leave it at this.

MR PRETORIUS: Honourable member of the Committee I never intended to take it any further. I intended to leave it. I just explained to Madame member of the Committee that, that was the reason why I asked those questions. That is all Honourable member.

CHAIRPERSON: That is alright. Do carry on.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Llale when you were questioned about your background you gave a number of incidents where you alleged that you saw that certain IFP members, etc, were the aggressors you inter alia mentioned Boipatong. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I did say that earlier on.

MR PRETORIUS: Do you accept the proposition that on a number of occasions up to 1994 and even today there are or were occasions where ANC people attacked IFP people?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I won't respond to that.

MR PRETORIUS: Carry on please.

MR LAX: Sorry he is saying he won't respond to it. That was his answer.

MR PRETORIUS: Sorry I heard him to say he want to respond to that. I am putting it to you as a fact (...intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: What were you saying Mr Llale?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Maybe I did not understand the question. He was asking about the incident between ANC and IFP. I said I am not prepared to argue that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The translation was incorrect. He said he could not deny that.
(INTERPRETER: The translation was not incorrect. He said he will not answer that.)

MR PRETORIUS: ...(inaudible) Mr Llale the position is simply this and I am putting it to you the fact that on a number of occasions up to now ANC people attacked IFP people and vice versa. That is the proposition. Do you agree with that?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I agree to that.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Llale, Mr Moolman testified were you in court when he testified?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I wasn't there when he was testifying.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Moolman testified that he fired one shot. When he fired, that is now with a shot gun. When he fired that shot with the shotgun he was firing at people that were attacking Shell House.

MOSES VELI LLALE: That is what Moolman said I won't respond to that because it is what Moolman said.

MR PRETORIUS: Now you testified that you fired two shots with a shot gun. One you fired whilst they were attacking. The other could have been now when people were retrieving and they were running around, milling around. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Now the evidence up to now that was given at the inquest is that Mr Potsane fired one shot and his evidence was that he fired it at a crowd that was attacking and was moving forward. Do you understand that?

MOSES VELI LLALE: What Neo observed and so I am not in a position to dispute it or agree to it but I don't know. I wouldn't know.

MR PRETORIUS: The total position therefore, that is why I took it step for step Mr Llale is as follows. There were four shots fired with a shotgun from the parapet on the crowd. Three of those shots were fired whilst people were attacking or moving forward. Whereas the medical evidence is clear that there were four people killed that day with shotguns and all four were shot in the back. Therefore I put it to you the proposition that the guards or the picture that the guards on the parapet wanted to paint to the Commission isn't correct and in fact they are all telling what is not true merely to try and justify shooting at innocent marchers.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I am here in front of this Committee today to talk about what I have seen on the 28th of March. As to what they are saying, others doesn't concern me but I am telling the Committee what I have seen and in the manner which all that happened.

MR PRETORIUS: You saw Mr Molefe firing his first volley of shots. In which direction did he fire?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I said if I remember well his gun was pointing upwards.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Llale do you accept the following proposition. The position where the guards were position on the parapet was such that there is now a wall between them and the crowd. The crowd and the crowd is much lower than they are.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes when you are up there you look down at the ground and you will see people.

MR PRETORIUS: It is very unlikely that if a rifle is fired accidentally on the parapet that it will be fired at the crowd. If it is fired at the crowd it had to be a deliberate action.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Please repeat your question and in a slow pace?

MR PRETORIUS: Let me put it to you this way. If you want to fire at the crowd from the position that the guards on the parapet was only the upper body of the guards protrude above the parapet. If you want to shoot at the crowd with a rifle you have to place the butt of the rifle in your shoulder and look down towards the crowd and then fire.

MOSES VELI LLALE: On that day it is not what I did, what you are demonstrating now.

MR PRETORIUS: What then did you do?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I will try to show you. I wish we could have pictures in front of us then you will have a clear picture or as broad a picture as possible. When you are up there on the parapet you are not able to see everything entirely on the street. There are some places or things that you can't see from up there. Now where I was standing I was able to see the centre of the street towards the pavement and the shops. Now it wasn't possible to show your whole body so I could not see where the marchers were walking or were standing. I could see.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman I will leave it at that. Mr Llale a last question. After you fired your second shot did any of the people on the parapet fired further shots or was that the last shot that was fired from the parapet?

MOSES VELI LLALE: If my memory serves me well I think that is what happened.

MR PRETORIUS: I am sorry I do not understand. Did you say it was your last shot or the last shot?

MOSES VELI LLALE: In my statement I am saying after shooting there was that quietness. I think after I shot it was quiet.

MR PRETORIUS: I just want to put it to you further the objectors for which I and both Dr van Wyk appear will also state that they never attacked Shell House and there never was an attack on Shell House. And that they were fired on by the guards including yourself without any reason.

MOSES VELI LLALE: As others who have said that I am saying that day I saw an attack. This is why I acted that way because we were being attacked.

MR PRETORIUS: .

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairman just a few questions from me. Mr Llale in your application and in more particular the affidavit attached to your application you say that Mr Kruser and the late Mr Gadu told you to shoot but only as a last resort. What did you understand by that? When were you to shoot as a last resort?

MOSES VELI LLALE: If I remember well there are many things that happened that day. I am talking about other, I am referring to other marchers that occurred earlier on. Some were doing things that were completely unacceptable. Now what they were requesting from us was that we should not act unreasonable. So that is the reason why they said that. That we should not shoot without any reason.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The instructions given to you by Mr Chris Lushaba if I understand it correctly one was that you should give assistance in the form of diverting any concentration of the attackers who would be attacking the security downstairs. What did you understand by that? What were you to do to divert any concentration of the attackers? What did you understand by that?