Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Kok.  I just want to come back to the first page of your submission.  And as part of your apology you say, also for not using its link with the government to influence it's thinking in its apartheid based policies.  If I can just clarify that.  Does that mean that the executive arm of Eskom actually agreed with government apartheid policies and therefore did not speak out, or does it mean that you yourselves were so integral and believing in these apartheid policies and therefore it really wasn't necessary for you to actually approach government to change their policies?

WILLEM KOK: Chairperson, I've not been around at the time.  I've only been at Eskom since 1988, but from what I can gather is that upto 1979, very little has been done in terms of the social conscience of Eskom.  Only since that period from 1979 to 1989 that Eskom started to employ people of different race groups at senior levels, when they adopted a policy of equal opportunities that the conscience started to stir.  And I think at that stage, Eskom could have done more in terms of influencing rather than just writing to government asking them for their permission, not being granted the permission and then sitting back.  We could have been  more active at that stage.

DR RANDERA: Mr Kok, I'm sure that when the mining houses and Anglo make their submissions we'll hear much more about the compound system and the, and all the problems associated with both the compound and hostel system and migrant labour.  I'm reminded of one such hostel that we visited during our hearings in the Vaal, where in fact, it's alleged that people marched from that particular hostel to Boipatong and where the massacre took place.  Now that was last year, not that long ago, people were still living in hospital under the most inhumane conditions.  My question really is to find out from Eskom whether you've developed policies relating to compound and hostel systems and what are those policies?

WILLEM KOK: Thank you Chairperson, if I may refer that to Mr Bob Macklewaine.

MR MACKLEWAINE: Thank  you Mr Chairperson.  Yes, the whole questions of hostels has been addressed jointly with our trade unions.  There is an agreement on the whole housing arena including the question of hostels.  Eskom in terms of that agreement to do dramatic upgradings of the hostels.  Our current position is that, it's rather strange; that we felt that we should abolish the hostel system and go into houses;  we are currently in dispute with our unions on that, they want us to retain the hostel system and upgrade it.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, my last question is, related to your submission on your security system.  We've had many submissions from trade unions particularly, of the links between management and security in any particular area.  We also had recently at a hearing in Cape Town, Mr Craig Williamson coming and talking about how easy it was for him and his colleagues to be involved on culvert activities because they had again , the co-operation of management.  You've talked in your submission about the close liaison that was between your own security and the South African Police and South African Defence Force.  Would you say that there is substance in what on the one side what Mr Craig Williamsons saying and what trade unions have complained about?

WILLEM KOK: Chairperson, as far as I'm concerned and to the best of my knowledge, there is no substance to it but I would also like my colleague, Dolly Mogwhatle to respond to this question.

D MOGWHATLE: Chairperson it is going to be very very difficult to refute allegations of that nature.  I think in particular, unless the Truth and Reconciliation Committee takes it upon itself to use the powers and the authority it's got, to subpoena specific people, it is going to be very very difficult for the current and changing management of this large organisation to be (unclear) to say,
"No, nothing of that nature did occur." Or "Yes, I can vouch for that, irrespective of whether I was present or not."
I think what I would like to bring to the attention of the commission, is that, through to its size, its share size, the diversity of its people, and the complexity of its business, Eskom cannot say today that unto what really did not occur as far as other activities were concerned and individuals of Eskom were involved in those activities.  And that is why I plead for a situation where it cannot be expected of present management to vouch for non-occurrence of those issues.  I don't believe anybody can vouch for non-occurrence.  If you take into account that Eskom was operating in an apartheid era, in an environment where it was very very conducive for individuals whether we say in business or in society in general; it is quite possible chairperson, that untoward behaviour did occur.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you

DR RANDERA: Thank you chairperson

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, two quick questions as always from Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: The first is, that I want to make a comment; where I've listened to the presentation with great interest, and I want to say that I appreciate very much the candid way in which there was recognition of past failures, in a very large organisation.  And I thought to myself, that man who is speaking now, he hasn't worked there for very long.  He is too candid.  And I proved to be right, you were only there since 1988, I had no idea of that, and I think that what I am saying is that, when one has been part and parcel of an institution for a very very long time it is extraordinarily difficult not to want to justify what took place; and I think both the comments from you have I think been a great encouragement to this commission and certainly to myself.  It's refreshing to have one qualified statement rather than an explanation.  It may be that the offences were more blatant and that is why it was called for., but nevertheless it is very much appreciated.  I also had a question and the chairperson will be delighted to hear that I have been overtaken because your colleague has mentioned the (unclear) responsibility of the commission looking into this matter and certainly will try and do that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm so grateful to Dr Boraine, for his consideration.  I just want to reiterate what he has said;  I mean our appreciation, I my opening remarks, I did speak about, the cleansing effect of an acknowledgement, because you; I'm radioactive; you do disarm people and it makes it very difficult for anyone to be wanting to be very very forthright, because you have pre-empted and I would hope as I said in the opening, that we would get that sort of streak, which contributes to the process of unifying a shattered and fragmented society and helps in the (unclear).  So we will say,  much power to you, you management, there is of course a continuity, I mean they belong in an organisation and so they apologise even if they themselves were not particularly involved, they are still part of that organisation which is changing, and we are thrilled at the composition of your delegation.  Thank you

WILLEM KOK: Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Please step down, and now Armscor.
 Order, order please.  We welcome you very much and I believe you were in some agony yesterday, you had some back trouble so we are grateful that you have been able to come forward and be here this afternoon.  Dr Boraine will administer the oath  or take the affirmation.

DR BORAINE: Thank you chairperson, and yes a very warm word of  welcome, a particular welcome,  we understand that the agony was not only confined to the back.  So we are delighted to have you with us today, really quite genuinely.  Thank you for coming.  I wonder if you'd introduce your delegation and then we will take the oath.