Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, may I ask for leave to call Mr Mbutho.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 57.  Mr Mbutho, please put the earphones on.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down.  Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mbutho, you were born on the 14th of March 1971 at Umkomaas in kwaZulu-Natal, is that correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: When you were arrested in 1990, did you reside in this area and did you regard that as your permanent home?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In your application you say that at some stage, in 1985 to 1990, there was a clash between the UDF and the IFP.  Did you belong to any of these organisations during that period?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I was the UDF member.

MR NGUBANE: When did you become a UDF member?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: In 1985.

MR NGUBANE: Did you become a member of the UDF until the ANC was unbanned in or about 1990?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And before I lead you on further evidence, I noticed that on page 58, paragraph 9(4) you say - well, what you say has been interpreted in English as I had stabbed him with a tomahawk, the one I carried when I was in court but in Zulu, at page 66, you say that the tomahawk you carried, was when the case or the incident happened, is that correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: When you say you were carrying the tomahawk when the case happened, you used the word "icala", did you mean when you were in court or when Mr Mkhize was killed?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: When he was killed.

MR NGUBANE: All right, let's to back now.  You have heard evidence of the applicants that went before you, to the effect that there was violence in your area, between the IFP and the UDF in 1985 to 1990, is that evidence correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: And you have heard the role that was played by the deceased, as the IFP man and as one of the people that attacked, do you confirm what has been said by the two applicants?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, I confirm that is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Do you also confirm that there was at some stage a decision to eliminate him together with other people who were troublesome to the United Democratic Front?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: On the - would you have been part of that decision if you were not involved in political activities?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: No, I wouldn't.

MR NGUBANE: On the 7th of November 1990, you participated in the killing of the deceased, is that right?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.  It is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: What was your role when the deceased was killed?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I used the weapon, a tomahawk weapon.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage, well, how did you use this weapon, the tomahawk?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: After the other applicants had shot him, I actually contributed by using the tomahawk.

MR NGUBANE: I noticed that at page 58, paragraph 9(4) in English it is interpreted as I had stabbed him with a tomahawk, but in Zulu you used the word "namtagula" which means you hacked him.  Is the Zulu inscription correct or is the English translation correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It is the Zulu version.

MR NGUBANE: In other words, you didn't stab him, you hacked him with the tomahawk?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Right, can you explain to these Honourable members of the Committee, at what stage did you use this tomahawk to injure the deceased?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I used the tomahawk after he was shot.

MR NGUBANE: Was he laying down or was he sitting, what was the position?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: By that time, he was trying to protect himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he laying down or was he standing u?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: He was falling and also standing up?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  How many times did you hack him with the tomahawk?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Several times, I can't quite remember.

MR NGUBANE: Where about on his body did you hack him, can you recall?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: On the head and also on the hands.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  Was there a stage when you tried to chop off his hands as he was wrestling with the firearm that was in the possession of one of the applicants?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And was your purpose in doing that, were you trying to make him let loose the firearm that he was grabbing and trying to dispossess?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, indeed.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  You have heard the other applicants indicating that they would not have killed the deceased if they were not doing that in order to advance the standing of the ANC.  Does that apply to you?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is like that.

MR NGUBANE: Did you hope that by eliminating Mr Mkhize, you would somehow let the attack on the UDF subside to a certain extent?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, I had that hope.

MR NGUBANE: We have heard the evidence of Mr Hlongwa saying that he has on his behalf and on your behalf, tried to contact the families of the deceased.  Is it also a wish to contact the families of the deceased?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: And do you have a message for them for what you did?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, if they were here, what would you have wished to tell them?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: If they were here, I would actually reveal that I sympathise with them.

MR NGUBANE: Would you be prepared to meet them and express your remorse to them?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Since you have told the truth about the incident, as to how the incident happened, can you tell the Committee how you feel after having told the truth?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Please do so.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: I feel free, if I am able to speak like this.

MR NGUBANE: Do you accordingly apply that you be granted amnesty and do you submit that your actions were politically motivated and you did those actions with a specific purpose of advancing a political objective?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Where did you get the tomahawk from that you hacked Mr Mkhize with?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: It was mine.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS THABETE: Three questions Mr Chair.  Mr Mbutho, would it be correct for me to say Mr Msani, Mr Hlongwa and Jogolo Cele were your friends?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MS THABETE: Yes, they were your friends?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, both of them.

MS THABETE: Did anyone give you an instruction or an order to go and kill Mr Sixtus Mkhize?  I am asking you this question because according to the other people, the other applicants, you are the one that went to them to tell them that Mr Mkhize was in the area.  Had anyone given you an instruction to go and kill Mr Mkhize?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: No one.

MS THABETE: Why did you choose Mr Hlongwa, Mr Msani and Mr Cele, why did you choose them specifically, especially because you say they were your friends, to go and kill Mr Mkhize?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Those are the people who were nearby my place.

MS THABETE: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: None Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson.  Mr Mbutho, why didn't you use your shotgun?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: By the time I arrived at Palela, he didn't have a weapon at that particular time.

MR LAX: So are you saying that you gave your shotgun to him?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR LAX: Where did you get the shotgun from?