Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I knew about the parachutes when they brought them in and I asked them what are these bags and I think it was Jannie Kruger.

MR PRIOR: How would you use these parachutes in the activities of the camp, on the game farm at that stage?  Did you know?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that if I understand your evidence as a whole that you all moved to the Western Transvaal with the idea of the war that would start the Volkstaat idea and that that area you would protect against any attacks?  In other words, you would claim that area as a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Do I also understand your evidence that at one stage because you did not get this Volkstaat you let go of this idea?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When we did not get the Volkstaat?

MR PRIOR: At one stage it was said to you, they will not give us a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: We are not going to get a Volkstaat.  They will not give it to us.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Thank you Chairperson, I understood it that way.  I just wanted some clarity.

MR PRIOR: The further developments or the plan to throw bombs or to plant bombs, was that taken, this decision, was that taken at the game farm, the pipe bomb mission?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I knew that was planned there, at the game farm Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: And otherwise it was your instructions to have patrols, to put stationed guards and to protect the farmers etc.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I was part of the patrol and Major Smith, Johan Smit that is was in charge of the guards.

MR PRIOR: Can I put it to you like this, do you know, or was it maybe the case that the bomb planting and throwing of bombs was happening in revenge because you could not get what you wanted by using negotiation?  In other words it was an action.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson, I wouldn't put it like that.

MR PRIOR: Well we know that the Bree Street bomb exploded on the 24th, the Germiston one the next day and the  men were sent out with the pipe bombs on the 26th of April that is?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: And you went home on the 26th and several people were given permission to go and visit their wives, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, after we went to the shooting range we went home.

MR PRIOR: So in other words the whole camp as I understood it, except the people who stayed behind and were arrested on the 27th there were no further activities except for the Jan Smuts bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I did not know about the Jan Smuts bomb.

MR PRIOR: I think the Judge described it as a reaction as well against the fact that your activities there were stopped by the police.  In other words, the people who planted the bomb at Jan Smuts, did it out of revenge because the police stopped your activities?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, Chairperson I wouldn't see it as such.

MR PRIOR: What was your last answer?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson, I wouldn't say that, that it happened because of revenge.

MR PRIOR: But you didn't even know about it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I did not.

MR PRIOR: So why can you say why it was planted there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I thought he asked my opinion Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Chairperson, can I just ask a last question please.  This meeting where you were present, together with the officers and you discussed the pipe bombs, was there any talk of creating total chaos?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson it was said.

MR PRIOR: And the targets or where the bombs would be planted or where they would be thrown, was that not discussed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, it was not discussed.

MR PRIOR: And did you also discuss peoples' lives?  That type of behaviour, the fact that through that type of behaviour people would necessarily be killed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was not discussed.

MR PRIOR: Was there any talk of black people who would then be the targets and by doing that you'd cause violence amongst the different races?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At that meeting you are talking about it wasn't discussed.

MR PRIOR: Was it discussed at a later gathering or meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Not that I know about Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR MALAN: There's just one thing I'd like to ask you, and this is regards to the bombs.  You were asked quite a lot of questions with regards to the change of policy concerning the throwing of bombs, did you know of any other bombs which were thrown before?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: By our people?

MR MALAN: Yes by some of your people.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: You mentioned Jaapie Oelofse, General Jaapie Oelofse or Mr Le Roux referred to Mr Oelofse, is this person known to you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: General Jaapie Oelofse, I'm sure I mentioned him before and I said that Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever was serving under General Jaapie Oelofse.

MR MALAN: Were you aware of the fact that General Jaapie Oelofse was already in prison at that time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.  That's why I said Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever served under General Jaapie Oelofse.

MR MALAN: But didn't you see in the news that bombs were thrown?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes but what I understood is that you are asking me if I was aware of our people who were doing it.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Fourie when Mr Malan asked you, "your people", he meant the AWB, not your specific little group but AWB people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Can I just understand your answer correctly then.  Were you aware of it or not?  Did you see in the news that bombs were thrown by right-wing people and any other place, were you aware of that or not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson I was aware of it.

MR MALAN: So when you had to deal with the pipe bombs, do think it was the first time that pipe bombs were made by the AWB or did you think it was not the first time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: By our people, it was the first time it was made by our people.

MR MALAN: This is the group you were involved with?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But not necessarily in the broader AWB or Freedom Front structure?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That could be that other people were not involved with us had done it.

MR MALAN: So if I understand you correctly, it was quite a new thing that suddenly within a specific AWB set up, pipe bombs were made?  Was that a completely novel idea to you or not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I wouldn't say it was a new idea Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But it was the first time you got into contact with bombs coming from your people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Just to help me Mr Fourie.  The total number of people who gathered at Trim Park, let me start there.  There were 70 or 70 families.  I know we talked about 70.  Explain the 70 to me please?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They were people in total Chairperson.  Together with our wives and children.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, so the people who eventually were at the game park, before the Natalians arrived, how many were there?  So that's on the 24th, how many men were there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I'd estimate about 35.

ADV GCABASHE: Now add the Natalians for me.  How many Natalians arrived?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: There were quite a lot of them.  I'd say, if I have to make a rough estimate, I'd say about 40.

ADV GCABASHE: So in total again we go to about 75 men, at the end of the day who were at the game park?