Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On Count 1 it is the killing of a female person, Happy Dlamini aged 20.  Count 2, Malu Elsie Dlamini, aged 16, another female.  Count 3, Emily Dlamini aged 60, another female.  Count 5, Mildred Kunene a 51 year-old, another female.  And Count 6, Patricia Ncwabe a nine year-old, another female.  Those you said they are mistakes, they shouldn't have happened?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes, I will agree with you because they were not fighting they were women.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was any of your family members, your immediate family members injured on the day when you were attacked?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: No, they were not injured on that particular day, it was another incident of attack where Bekani Nkunu was injured.  However one of our family members got injured in one of the attacks before the particular one we are talking about.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now before the particular one you are talking about who is your family member who got injured?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It's my elder brother, can I mention his name?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: His name it's Khosi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is he Khosi Gumbi?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Ja, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you say you were revenging on his behalf on this day?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's not part of the revenge because it wasn't specifically directed to me, I mean the attack, I won't call it a family fight, it was something that was directed to the whole community, therefore as a member of the community I had to take part in the fight because there was a fight and maybe if there wasn't any fighting I wasn't going to find myself in this situation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In response to a question put to you by Mr Rathman at a certain stage your answer was, "it is us who were fighting the war and the leaders were not involved", do you remember that?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Does it mean that by leaders, are you referring to the leadership of the IFP?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I am referring to the leader in our area that he didn't take part, I am not referring to the whole leaders of the IFP, I am referring to the specific leader at Richmond.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He was the IFP leader?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct, he didn't take part in any of those incidents.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he know that this incident was going to take place?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't think he knew that this was going to happen because he didn't even know that we were going to be attacked and also that we are going to attack back, so I can't say that he knew.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which means then that whatever you people did from that afternoon up till the early hours of the morning you did without the knowledge nor consent of the IFP leadership?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We did what we did as followers, there wasn't anything that we are going to do because we had to fight to protect our community, therefore we did it personally, including myself, but with a reason. I didn't just start up the fighting, attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did any other IFP leaders, if not the IFP leader in Richmond, tell you to take part in the war, to take part in the attacks?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would say, as I have just mentioned Sadamo, he also gave us instruction but however we also as a community also we were of the same view that we should attack back.  However, if someone will come with a view we will follow that view if it was verified and we had to do what we had to do.  In other words nobody sent me to go and do it.  It was just because of the view the one person came up that we should go and fight back.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi I think you have repeatedly stated that no one sent you to attack on this particular occasion, but you have also stated that there were repeated incidents of attack in Richmond, were these brought to the leadership of the IFP, these repeated incidents of attack?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I think we did report these issues because Vezi and Majosi also talked about these because those were people who were in contact with the offices and the courts so they should have reported the matter.  The situation was in such a way that the whole issue have to be reported and known.  I am saying there were people who killing IFP members which had to go to court and nothing was done to them.  I would say many cases were reported to court but nothing happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But what was the attitude of the IFP leadership regarding those attacks, during the meetings that you attended as IFP supporters where the attacks against your members were discussed, was there any particular attitude adopted by the leadership about what you had to do as members of IFP in the event of an attack by the ANC people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: At the time of the attacks the situation was so tense even if we didn't like violence but we couldn't stand it.  People were killed on both sides.  Their people were killed too and they were fighting back and we were fighting so it was an uncontrollable situation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are not responding to my question.  I want to know whether there was an attitude adopted by the IFP leadership regarding the repeated incidents of attack against IFP members by ANC people?  You must have attended meetings where this issue was discussed by the leadership?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: At meetings when we discussed the situation, I don't know exactly what they were talking about, but it became clear that people were not happy about the situation, that people were being killed, I don't know if I do understand your question very well.  The situation wasn't that good and we hated it because people were getting killed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What was the advice that you got from the IFP leadership concerning these repeated incidents of attacks?  Were you not advised to also take up arms against attacks by alleged members of the ANC?  Were you not advised to do that by your leadership?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I can't say we were advised to do anything, however, when we had meetings we were told that we don't have to attack these people, however if they attack us we have to fight back to protect ourselves.  They were just telling us that we shouldn't start the fight by attacking them.  However, if they attack us we should protect ourselves by fighting back.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you were encouraged to launch retaliatory attacks whenever you were attacked by ANC people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We were not instigated to attack or encouraged to fight back but it was to protect ourselves, the community when they attack us.  We had to protect ourselves because there was nothing we could do, but we were not encouraged to start and attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's what I said.  Where did you obtain the firearm that you used on this occasion, the 9mm firearm?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I found it at the first fight.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What do you mean by saying you found it at your first fight?  Who gave you the 9mm pistol that you used on this occasion?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: At the beginning I didn't have a firearm, we were using assegais and spears when the war started.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi what I am asking is who gave you the 9mm firearm?  Do you have a name that you wish to give us, if you don't wish to disclose the name you just have to tell us that you are uncomfortable in having to disclose the name of the person.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I get you very well.  I can't mention the name of a person whom I don't know.  I will explain as to how I acquired the firearm.  I won't say anybody has given the firearm to me, however if there's a reason where I had to mention someone's name I will have to.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you obtain this firearm?