Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, might I then call the person who is the first applicant, Aggie Shoke?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry there's one other question I meant to ask the previous applicant but you can perhaps apply the answer.  How old is he?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, he was born in 1947 so that would make him 50.

AGGIE SHOKE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: To place it on record before your counsel starts, when were you born?

AGGIE SHOKE: I was born in 1954.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke, is it correct that in 1988 you were a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: When did you become of member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

AGGIE SHOKE: In 1982.

MR LANDMAN: Who were members of your unit in 1988?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was myself, Harold, Dumakude and Dube - Captain Dube.

MR LANDMAN: You refer to him as Captain Dube, is he presently a Captain in the Defence Force?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes he is a Captain.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you.  Who was the commander of the unit?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: And who was second in command?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was Captain Dube.

MR LANDMAN: Was Mr Matshididi and yourself as it were the lower ranks in the unit?  Foot soldiers as it were?

AGGIE SHOKE: He was low when it comes to ranks.

MR LANDMAN: And yourself as well?

AGGIE SHOKE: Myself as well.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Shoke is it correct that you were requested to participate in an operation involving the planting of a bomb at Ellis Park Rugby Stadium?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: How did you become involved?

AGGIE SHOKE: Dumakude came to us, he told us that there was a certain mission to fulfil at Ellis Park.  He said that the mission should be carried out on Saturday when a rugby match would be in place.  He requested myself and Harold to go and check up the place which we did.  ...[indistinct] twice and on Friday the day before the match all of us went to the place to see where the bomb could be planted.

MR LANDMAN: When you say all of us, who was present on the Friday?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was myself, Dube, Dumakude and Harold.

MR LANDMAN: What was the purpose of going to Ellis Park on the Friday?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was for them to see the place as well, how it was structured.

MR LANDMAN: Did Dumakude say anything about the area around Ellis Park on the Friday?

AGGIE SHOKE: He said the next day we were supposed to bring a bomb that was to be planted at Ellis Park.

MR LANDMAN: Were you ever told why a bomb should be planted at Ellis Park?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes.  It was to send the message to the whites that the struggle was now heading towards them.

MR LANDMAN: At that particular stage had you received any directions from uMkhonto weSizwe leadership as to whether you were allowed to attack civilian targets?

AGGIE SHOKE: No.

MR LANDMAN: What happened on Saturday morning, the morning of the rugby match?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was myself, Dumakude, Harold and Dube.  We went to buy the two cylinders, battery and a clock watch and that car, the BMW.

MR LANDMAN: Who paid for the equipment?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: Did he pay for the car as well?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes he paid for the car as well.

MR LANDMAN: And where did you go to after you had collected the car as well as the equipment?

AGGIE SHOKE: We went to Diepkloof, Zone 5.

MR LANDMAN: And what happened there?

AGGIE SHOKE: They assembled the bomb in Zone 5 so that they can transport it to Ellis Park.

MR LANDMAN: What did you do whilst the bomb was being assembled?

AGGIE SHOKE: I was standing a little bit far from the car keeping watch.

MR LANDMAN: Were you aware at that stage that a car bomb was being built?

AGGIE SHOKE: I knew.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know what the intended target was?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was to drive the car to Ellis Park.

MR LANDMAN: What sort of damage was to be caused by this car bomb according to the plan?

AGGIE SHOKE: The bomb was meant to take the message to the white people.

MR LANDMAN: Was it intended that people should be killed?

AGGIE SHOKE: No it was not our intention to kill people.

MR LANDMAN: Was it your intention to injure people that day?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was not our intention either.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know what time the car bomb was to explode?

AGGIE SHOKE: I was not told of that, I was not with them when they set the bomb.

MR LANDMAN: Now did you leave Diepkloof later and travel in the direction of Ellis Park Rugby Stadium?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: In what vehicle were you?

AGGIE SHOKE: I was in a Kombi.

MR LANDMAN: Who drove that Kombi?

AGGIE SHOKE: I was the driver of the Kombi.

MR LANDMAN: Was anybody with you?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes, I was with Dube.

MR LANDMAN: And who was driving the vehicle in which the car bomb had been placed?

AGGIE SHOKE: Dumakude was driving the car bomb.

MR LANDMAN: And was Harold with him?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes he was with him.

MR LANDMAN: Now when you arrived in the vicinity of Ellis Park what happened?

AGGIE SHOKE: I did not even reach the vicinity.  When they took the right turn I took the left turn to go and wait for them at a spot agreed upon that after setting the bomb they would meet us.

MR LANDMAN: And where was that spot?

AGGIE SHOKE: I was going to wait for them at Checkers in Hillbrow.

MR LANDMAN: Did you in fact wait for them at Checkers?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes I waited for them.

MR LANDMAN: Did Dumakude and Harold later come to the vehicle, to the Kombi?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes, they arrived.

MR LANDMAN: Did you hear the explosion?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes I heard the explosion.

MR LANDMAN: Do you know what time the explosion was?

AGGIE SHOKE: I think it was round about five o'clock.  Yes, round about five o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: Now when you participated in the activities that week and in particular on the Saturday, were you acting under any instructions or orders?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Whose orders?

AGGIE SHOKE: Dumakude's orders.

MR LANDMAN: Did you consider Dumakude to be a commander in uMkhonto weSizwe?

AGGIE SHOKE: He was our commander.

MR LANDMAN: Did you believe that Dumakude was carrying out instructions that had been given to him?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes he was also executing orders given to him.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke, now that you know that the car bomb caused the loss of two lives as well as a number of injuries, would you describe to the Committee how you feel about that?

AGGIE SHOKE: I regret the injury of the injured ones and those who died.  It was not our intention to go and kill people.  I will stop there.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you, that's the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Shoke, you refer to Dube, Mr Dube as Captain Dube.  Is he presently in the SANDF?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Are you also employed in the SANDF?

AGGIE SHOKE: No I'm not employed within the SANDF.  I am not working for the force.

ADV PRIOR: And Mr Matshididi, do you know where he is employed?

AGGIE SHOKE: He is a policeman.

ADV PRIOR: Now M.K., uMkhonto weSizwe, was the military wing of the ANC.  The ANC formed a political body is that correct and the M.K. the military arm?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: At the time of the Ellis Park Bomb, were you politically aware, in other words were you up to speed and up to date on the political decisions made by the ANC or the policies made by the ANC at the time?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes I knew the policy.

ADV PRIOR: I just never caught the reply to a question by your counsel - did you say there was no order from the M.K. to attack civilian targets or there was an order from M.K. to attack civilian targets?

AGGIE SHOKE: Repeat your question Sir?

ADV PRIOR: I just want to get clarity, was there an order or an instruction that came to your attention that civilian targets like the one at Ellis Park Stadium, rugby stadium, was to be attacked?

AGGIE SHOKE: No there is no such order.