Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: Not yourself?

MS NGONO: I was already in Lesotho at that time.

MR VISSER: Listen to my question please.  You are telling this Committee about a visit that took place in 1987 where your mother went to visit Mbulelo, is that correct?

MS NGONO: Please repeat your question.

MR VISSER: You're telling this Committee about an occasion in 1987 when your mother visited Mbulelo in Lesotho, is that correct?

MS NGONO: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And you say she was accompanied by your sister on that visit, on that occasion, is that correct?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now I'm asking you, did you visit with your mother and your sister, Mbulelo, on that occasion?

MS NGONO: Yes, I was also present.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you tell the Committee about that, that you were also present?  You told us that only your mother and your sister went to visit him.

MS NGONO: I used to see him all the time, I didn't see the point of mentioning that again.  I have already mentioned that I was in Lesotho at the time of their visit.

MR VISSER: Well, seeing that you were there, what was talked about with Mbulelo at the time, between your mother and him, your sister and him, yourself and him?  What did you talk about?

MS NGONO: They were just looking at him.  They just went there to visit him.

MR VISSER: Did they talk about normal things, family matters and so on?

MS NGONO: He was asking them about family matters, because he hasn't seen them for a very long time.

MR VISSER: Was he telling them and yourself about what he was doing?

MS NGONO: No, he never mentioned that.

MR VISSER: But you knew he was an MK soldier and he had been military trained, not so?

MS NGONO: Yes, we knew that.

MR VISSER: When in 1987, did this visit take place, can you tell us?

MS NGONO: Though I cannot remember well, I think it was during the month of June.

MR VISSER: June.  Did he mention at all his intention to go away from Lesotho at that time?

MS NGONO: No, he never mentioned that.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So were you surprised in September when you didn't hear from him again?

MS NGONO: He just disappeared but I didn't inquire, but his other comrades were around and I would see them all the time.

MR VISSER: That's not the question.  When you didn't hear from Mbulelo in September 1987, did that surprise you?

MS NGONO: No, I was never surprised.

MR VISSER: Yes, because he was going on missions and he would leave without telling you where he was going, isn't that the reason?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You see the one thing I don't understand, you must please tell us whether this is right or wrong, paragraph 7 of this statement of yours, at page 36 of the bundle, says
"After that visit,"
now we know that's in June 1987,
"we never saw him again until we learned in 1988 that he had disappeared."
Is that statement correct?

MS NGONO: No, that is not true.

MR VISSER: Can you explain why this has been put into a statement that pretends to be your statement?  Can you explain that?

MS NGONO: I'll read it to you
"After that visit we never saw him again until we learned in 1988 that he had disappeared in Roma and Lesotho."

MR LAX: Sorry, the question is, can you explain why that appears in your statement, it's been a long time since the question was asked.

MS NGONO: I think it is an error  a misprint.

MR VISSER: Well, alright. And while we're at that paragraph, if you read on it says
"Where he was together with his girlfriend, Lindelwa Mabece",
do you see that there?  Is that correct, or is that also wrong, a misprint?

MS NGONO: On the day of his arrest, he was with Lindelwa Mabece, that is true.

MR VISSER: Is that what you were told by Mabece's sister in that conversation which you told us about earlier?

MS NGONO: She told me that it was herself, Lindelwa Mabece, Nandipa Mabece and Mbulelo.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Is that why you stated that in this paragraph, it's because of what she told you?

MS NGONO: I don't understand when you are saying that.

MR VISSER: Well you know it's very simple really, you don't have personal knowledge of this, do you?

MS NGONO: They came to tell me.

MR VISSER: That's what I'm asking you.  Thank you.  Now you don't intend to say in that paragraph that Mbulelo was living with his girlfriend, do you, or are you saying that?

MS NGONO: Mbulelo was staying in so many places.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Because you see, the reason why I ask you is there seems to be a bit of confusion here as to whether he was living with his girlfriend or whether he was living in another house.  Can you tell us what the position was? You also said today that he was living with Mbilo and Fana, as I heard you, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: May you repeat your question Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Perhaps to make it brief, as far as you're concerned, Mbulelo lived with Mpilo and what I heard you to say, Fana, is that right?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: As far as you're aware, he wasn't living with Lindelwa Mabece?

MS NGONO: All I know is that he used to visit Lindelwa as his girlfriend.

MR VISSER: I'll take it that that's an affirmation.  Now, you see this misprint is very confusing in paragraph 7 because you see it says
"after that visit in 1987, we never saw him again until we learned in 1988 that he had disappeared"
and today you told this Committee that after February 1988 you were told by them to stop visiting them, I take it that them is Mabece and Mbulelo, am I correct?

MS NGONO: Please repeat your question.

MR VISSER: Did you give evidence today to say that after February 1988 you were told by them to stop visiting them?

MS NGONO: He did not say that in February, and it was not himself and Lindelwa, Lindelwa was just a girlfriend, she was not involved in Mbulelo's activities, it was himself and Mbilo who told me to stop visiting them in Roma.

MR VISSER: Alright.  He told you that personally, face to face?  He didn't send a message to you, you spoke to him and he told you that, is that correct?

MS NGONO: Yes, they told me so.

MR VISSER: Would you agree with me that if that is so, this sentence cannot be correct?
"After that visit in 1987, we never saw him again until 1988",
that's in direct conflict, do you agree with me?

MS NGONO: What I disagree with is the fact that you say we never heard of him after 1988.  I saw him in February of 1988.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you follow.  If we have regard to page 35, what counsel is asking you, that if you look at paragraph 5 up to paragraph 7, there's no flow.  Would I be correct, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Well there's no mention of her seeing him at all, yes.

MR LAX: Just to put it a different way, what's being suggested to you is that this paragraph is incorrect, in other words, what it reads is as if you never saw him from 1985 ever again.  In other words - sorry, I beg your pardon, from 1987 ever again.  Okay?  And clearly on the strength of what you've told us that's not correct.

MS NGONO: That is not true.

MR VISSER: You see there's also another possibility and that is that what you said in your statement was in fact true and that you thought of this visit in 1988 afterwards, that that's an afterthought.

MR LAX: Sorry, what visit?

MR VISSER: The visit where she was told by him and Mbilo not to visit them any further or any longer in Roma.

MR LAX: When you used the visit, she was at school in Maseru at the time.

MR VISSER: I asked her specifically whether he'd sent a message or whether this was a face to face meeting with Mbulelo where she was told not to visit him any longer, and she said:  "He told me personally".

MR LAX: You're taking offence far too quickly, we're talking at cross-purposes.  We're on the same page actually, we're saying the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the way you put it, it's correct thus far, up to this sentence.  You may proceed Mr Visser, I'm with you.