Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  Now you said that after a shooting was made you commanded that ceasefire and even after ceasefire there were some shots being fired, do you remember that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And would you say that that shooting was from those undisciplined soldiers?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot justify that with you whether, where I was coming from because it was all over, shooting this side of the parliament, shooting at Fort Hare branch, shooting at Telkom building, so actually I don't know but I can say actually undisciplined soldiers, if those shootings were coming from the soldiers.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you don't take responsibility for that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now let us just come - when Mbene was using that rocket launcher towards the crowd, how far was the crowd from you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: The crowd was almost about 200 metres, approximately 200 metres to 300 if I can say more or less, I cannot judge that distance but they were very close.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, were they so close that if any one of them was carrying a firearm you could have seen that?  Could you have observed a firearm being carried by one of the marchers?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No Sir, that's why I was saying that the marchers, while they were running to the position of us, those firearms we cannot at that stage, but when we start firing the people were more closer than before, they were shooting, the shots were fired.

ADV SANDI: If anyone of the members of the crowd had lifted up his or her hand to shoot would you have observed that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I have observed that, that's why I was saying before that I had observed some mock, that's why I was saying I don't know if it's mock rifles or those were really rifles which the people were holding.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly was Mr van der Bank in relation to the position where you were located, where was he?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: At that stage Sir, his allocation I don't know where he was because he was mobile.

ADV SANDI: Could he have been in one of the helicopters that were hovering around there?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I mean I'm sorry, he was airborne not mobile, he was airborne.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  I'm sorry Mr Mkosana, I missed you when you were explaining the three stages of minimum force.  Would you just explain once again the stages of minimum force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: The stages of minimum force in my understanding is that you go with your vehicles and then you make a show of force by debarking down from the car and then embarking again to the vehicle.

MR MAPOMA: So that is what you call a show of force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, show of force.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, then the next one?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: The next one you again get inside the car and go forward and then again disembark and then make an extended line and it's where you'll start by ordering the people that this gathering is unlawful, you give five minutes or two minutes which is best and then you give a warning shot to fire, I mean a warning shot and then if the crowd doesn't disperse and then you ordered those troops who were on the ground to kneel down and then from there you appoint, identify one of the troops to say single fire to the man with the red hat or the man with the yellow socks fire and then the crowd, if the crowd doesn't disperse and then you order your whole section to open fire, a single shot fire and then ultimately the marchers maybe will disperse.

MR MAPOMA: I see. Now during the day in your understanding would that have killed a person, that the exercise of that minimum force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, no, no, no.  That stages of minimal force was exercised at that stage on that same day because the people were on speed and then they were close enough so that we can apply all those actions, the only action was to open fire which we did open fire.  There was no other way because the speed of the people and the distance they were we had no other alternative to open fire.

ADV SANDI: Yes but then why do you say minimum force fire in that situation if that is what you've just said now?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes because prior, when I was giving orders in the unit, I've told my commander, when I say minimum force fire they know automatically they will use single shots.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  So anything more than single shot is beyond minimum force, is that what I understand?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Sir, I cannot say but if you apply the minimum force is just to ensure that the person or the group that is coming to you or that is have a resistance it's just to make them to go away or to withdraw, it's not an intentional that we would like to kill or to add more fire.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Mapoma.  Did I understand you correctly when your troops opened fire did this crowd stop then?  They didn't proceed any further towards you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, they ran back.  It's where I immediately say ceasefire.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Sorry Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thanks a lot Chairperson, thanks a lot.  No further questions Mr Mkosana.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.
	Yes we have reached the stage in the proceedings where we will have to adjourn to enable Mr Nompozolo to proceed on behalf of the remaining applicant, Mr Gonya.
	 Under those circumstances we are going to adjourn and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS