Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know when this bomb explosion in the shopping centre took place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps tell us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I have a docket with me here Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Could you just give us a date?

ADV DE JAGER: Is this one of these that you didn't destroy?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Or which they'd perhaps forgotten to destroy.  "Explosion at Constantia Centre - 8 August 1981".

MR BOOYENS: May I continue Mr Chair?  Your colleague also made reference very briefly of other bomb explosions, specifically in the Port Elizabeth area.  Do you confirm that in July 1981 a bomb exploded at the old administration offices?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: And later on in 1981, at the railway line New Brighton?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Besides these, were there murders committed on policemen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember specific incidents?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I can.

MR BOOYENS: Could you please tell us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Sergeant Mtselo who worked with me from 1 April 1975 when I joined the security branch, he was my Black colleague who had been allocated to me.

MR BOOYENS: When more or less was he murdered?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think - well he was murdered in 1981 in front of the police station at Kwazakele.

MR BOOYENS: And any others?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Then Sergeant Mtanda.

MR BOOYENS: Also security branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, also at security branch and also in that period or in 1982 Mr Chairperson - '81/'82.

MR BOOYENS: That is as far as security branch policemen are concerned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Although you are not aware of names or cannot remember names, if you recall, were other Black members of the police force also murdered, killed or had their property damaged?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: I think we were dealing with Mr Mthimkhulu's role - you say he addressed meetings?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did he do so from his wheelchair?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He did so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did the fact that he was confined to a wheelchair affect his competence as a speaker?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR BOOYENS: As a political speaker to state it more clearly?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, not at all.

MR BOOYENS: The fact that he was in a wheelchair, did he use this as an example of what the agents of the apartheid regime allegedly did to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson, if I remember correctly, the terminology that was used was: "This was what the system had done to me".

MR BOOYENS: So was this illness according to your perceptions, to some extent misused by him or used/misused - it all depends on which perspective  you take, to advance his political perspective?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct, yes to increase his martyr status.

MR BOOYENS: So by the time that we reach the beginning of April 1982, would you say that the situation had escalated - that is now the unrest situation in general in the Eastern Cape, from what it had been at the period May of the previous year?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Would you say the situation was much worse or just a little worse or what was the position?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I would say the situation had escalated increasingly.

MR BOOYENS: You'd also said that as far as your personal opinion was concerned, it was rapidly on it's way to the people's war?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Now upon this - I beg your pardon, as a field worker you collected information regarding these two people and others?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: You always refer to physical and non-physical sources, how did you collect the terms - the information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: By means of registered informers as well as tapping of phones or listening in on people's conversations, otherwise that is the terminology - that is how we refer to, by calling them non-physical means.

MR BOOYENS: You also made tape recordings as referred to earlier, of meetings etc., that these had been referred to the Attorney General's office and this had not been adequate for prosecution?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You were at that stage an experience investigating officer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Could you succeed in collecting adequate information in order to compile a docket which you could confidently take to the court against any of the two?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, may I please explain?  In this hall in particular the acoustics are now much better than they were at that stage but if you look at the stage - if you look from the stage upwards, the sound was so bad that even Professor Jansen who specialised in voice identification, could not identify any voice properly.

MR BOOYENS: So these recordings actually didn't help in the end, not in terms of evidence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You've already mentioned that the situation was escalating, did you report to your to section commander?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, reports were compiled and they were sent through to him and he took note thereof, I also spoke to him personally.

MR BOOYENS: As far as these persons are concerned whose activities you investigated at the time, how important was Topsi Madaka and Mr Mthimkhulu?  In other words you didn't only investigate them, you also investigated a number of other persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: How long are you going to be with this witness do you think?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairperson, I'm just covering this aspect of the evidence that's not fully covered in his ...[inaudible] then I will - I'm confident that I'll be able to finish in chief before the end of the day hopefully or get very close to finishing it tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the end of the day might well be 5 o'clock this afternoon, what I wanted to know was whether you think you'll be finished by four because if we're going to go after four, we'll take a five minute adjournment now and then continue until you've finished the evidence.  Very well, we'll take a five minute adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (s.u.o.)

MR BOOYENS: (cont)
	 Mr Chairman, may I just discuss something with my client please?
	We got to the fact that all this information that you'd collected, you reported to your commanding officer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: If we could then go to page 39 of your application, paragraph 9 - under paragraph 9A (1), (2), (3), the background which you've already given where you discussed this with your seniors.  You weren't present during these times, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: They repeat essentially the information and the information set out here, is this the information that you conveyed to them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You heard the evidence of the three senior officers, that it was decided eventually that the elimination of the two deceased was the only option left open?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Were you part of the original decision?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I was not.

MR BOOYENS: It seems that after this decision - before the death of these persons, you were approached by Mr du Plessis according to his evidence, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did he then inform you the nature of the conversations which had been held?