Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR MHLABA: This was a noise of the shooting.  There were firearm crackings coming from all directions I would say, you couldn't say from which direction the shooting's coming from.

MR DORFLING: And can I just determine from you, immediately prior to the shooting starting, prior to you observing the people in front of you that fired in the direction of the crowd, was there any shooting from amongst the Zulu marchers at that point in time?

MR MHLABA: As I've already explained, the shooting started when Mr Mbatha was telling us we shall now continue as one group.  It was when we met the first group to form one group.

MR DORFLING: Was there at that point in time any shooting amongst the marchers, that's what I'm asking?

MR MHLABA: I didn't hear any shooting within us and I didn't see any shooting.  I'm not saying there wasn't but I didn't witness such.

MR DORFLING: Now after you got injured that day, did you go to hospital, were you hospitalised for your injury?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I went to hospital.  We were told that they can't help us because there were so many people who were so badly injured and we were told that we should wait for medical treatment.

MR DORFLING: And how long were you away from work?

MR MHLABA: I stayed about 3 months without work.

MR DORFLING: Now Mr Mhlaba, if people were to come to this Committee and give evidence that the Zulu people, the marchers, were attacking the building or the personnel of Shell House, the people working there, and that's the reason why the Zulu people got shot at, what would you comment be to that?

MR MHLABA: I will deny that because I personally as a grown-up person, it was a peaceful march and when we got shot we were surprised.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions to the witness that you Mr Chair, Members of the Committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORLFLING

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Just one aspect please Mr Chair.
	The way in which you moved and which you described to the Committee, is that the normal way that the Zulus move when they go to attend a peaceful meeting?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, that's our tradition.

MR PRETORIUS: Would it have been any different if you had for instance to war?

MR MHLABA: Yes, there will be striking difference, because when we're going to war we don't even talk to each other, we just walk and there is no chanting or singing, we just proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mhlaba you considered yourself at the time as one of the "Amabuto"?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: And when the amabuto move, do they move with discipline?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Is it the usual way of movement that every group is under charge of an Induna?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, each group has to have its own leader or Induna.  Even if it's not the Induna himself, there will be the assistant Induna.

MR TIPP: And the senior Induna in this case, Mr Mbatha, would see to it that each group was under the charge of a responsible Induna or someone else appointed to be in control?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: You know of course of Induna Kanyele?

MR MHLABA: Yes I know.

MR TIPP: Did you see him on that morning when the groups were forming up Park Station?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see him because those who were in front of us, we couldn't see them.  We couldn't see, those were really in front of the first group because we could only see the people from the back on the first group.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, I'm talking about your group.  Is it not so that Induna Kanyele was in charge of the second group that morning?

MR MHLABA: As I've explained, when we went out of Park Station in numbers, the one who was our leader - I wouldn't say we have a real leader, there were however marshals, and the person that I remember seeing in front of us was Mr Mbatha, and I didn't see Kanyele.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba these groups were large in number, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: In each of them there were several hundred members?

MR MHLABA: Yes I would say that's correct, even if I won't be able to give a specific number, be we were more than hundred.

MR TIPP: I'm not asking you for specific numbers.  Now ahead of you there was a large group, and at the head of that there was the senior Induna, Mr Mbatha.

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Now I understood you to say a little while ago that the usual way of movement is that each and every group has someone appointed to be in charge and in control of that group.

MR MHLABA: My word is when we are going to a function we're normally accompanied by an Induna and the Induna has his own marshals who will control the crowd to make sure that they don't do things which are out our objectives, and as we march any member who is a little bit senior will always be in charge of controlling the marchers.  It's not necessarily the Induna's who will always be conducting the crowd.

MR TIPP: Just tell us, was there a person in charge of your group?

MR MHLABA: I would say he was a person just like me, he was not an Induna just a respected member, so he was well versed when it comes to conducting those marches.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I think you've talked about - see what counsel is trying to find out from you is that there was the first group which was ahead of you and which was being led by Induna Mbatha.

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And then there was this second one in which you were, was coming from behind, and you said there were people who had been the Induna?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was there any person who was acting as a leading who was walking in front of you?

MR MHLABA: I will say there was no-one who was acting as the leader, we were moving just as a group following the front group.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was Kanyele among the leaders?

MR MHLABA: Yes he was present, I would say he was one of the people who were acting as marshals directing the crowd.

JUDGE NGCOBO: In which group was he, was he in the second group or the first one?

MR MHLABA: I would say he was conducting part of our group, but he was not concentrating on our group, he will go forward and go back to see that we are proceeding accordingly.  As he was patrolling there was another person on the other side controlling the crowd.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba is it correct that you are expected when you move in these groups, to remain in your groups, and that if for example the group at the front stops for some reason, then the second group will also stop, it doesn't simply proceed?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Now where in your group were you, were you at the front or in the middle somewhere, or towards the back?

MR MHLABA: I would say I was in the middle, just in the middle, but I was not far from the front.

MR TIPP: Yes, is it also so that when groups of this nature move through cities like Johannesburg, that they are required and expected to obey police instructions?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.  When we walk in the city we'll have to follow the directions given by the police because we have a route which we have to follow.

MR TIPP: Well apart from the fact that you've got a route, is it something that is conveyed to you by your leaders, by your Induna's that if a policeman comes to a group with an instruction, that the group must obey him?

MR MHLABA: That's correct, we are usually instructed that wherever we go we shall follow the law and we shall listen to the law officers, and we shall listen to anyone who has authority to direct us to whatever place we are going to.

MR TIPP: So for example if you are moving with a group of "amabutu" and two policemen were to approach from the front and raise their hands and make it clear that you should stop, then you would normally stop?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, we have to stop.  We have to stop and listen to what they want to say to us.