Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just to be fair to you. It is a meeting testifiedto by Petros where the community was involved where a decisionwas taken.  Did you know about that one?

UNKNOWN: I heard about that after.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you told as to who chaired the meeting?

UNKNOWN: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know as to who was responsible forthe meeting?

UNKNOWN: What I knew is that in such meeting only the(inaudible) members were allowed to enter, so my (inaudible) thatthey were members of the SDUs whom I knew.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know anything about the so-called TMK?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is it in full?

UNKNOWN: In Afrikaans it is TIEN MANNEKRAG.  In our language,cadres, it is TALENTED MEMBERS OF UMKHONTO we SIZWE.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this an existing ANC wing or organisation?

UNKNOWN: It was a defending structure actually.  Itwas not an ANC structure, but there were people who took initiativeswho proposed the structure must be opened, those who were there,some of them were the members of ANC, the leaders.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When was this TMK formed?

UNKNOWN: Between October month and November 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Formed by whom?

UNKNOWN: I was the one who formed it, organised theyouth to join the SDUs.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did the TMK have any connection or relationwith the known Umkhonto we Sizwe?

UNKNOWN: Actually, no.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that George Ramasimong,Duvidi, was previously a member of the Youth League.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want to believe then that if he was a memberof the Youth League previously you were in a position that youcan talk to him and enter into some form of negotiations withhim.

UNKNOWN: Exactly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now don't you think it would have been better,instead of him being murdered, that negotiations be entered intothrough yourself because you were in good contact with him?

UNKNOWN: I knew that very well and I tried it on countlessoccasions, but it failed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What attempts did you do?

UNKNOWN: We once went to a small police station in
Gelukwaarts to go and settle up there the dispute, then we proposeda meeting, a peace meeting which will be held at the Roman CatholicChurch here in Constantia, but at a later stage, maybe after anhour, we hear that they have killed one of the comrades in Pumulang(indistinct), and then by that time the members of the SDUs were(witness speaking indistinctly) they didn't want to listen tome because they were angry.  These people this side they are talkingabout the peace and reconciliation while the other side they arekilling the people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So negotiations stopped on that day betweenyourself and Duvidi.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there any other attempt made by yourself?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I once again tried to talk to him incourt at town and then he never wanted to listen to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified about a bus that ferried peoplewho had red bands on and were armed to the teeth.  Do you knowthe ownership of the bus?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know the ownership of the bus.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What bus was it?  Where did it come from?

UNKNOWN: They used to transport the people locallyhere, from here to job and in town.  It is public transport actually.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Oh, it is public transport owned.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which company is that?

UNKNOWN: I don't know the company.  I knew the firstcompany which was Greyhound and then by the time I came out ofprison, Greyhound was no more there and then the very same buseswere non-existent.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you say the same bus company is stilloperating in the area?

UNKNOWN: I don't know, because I've got a long timein prison.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know anything about an intended settlementor negotiation which was led by the local ministers of religion(inaudible)?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that I recall because the one who ledthe delegation was Rev Kosongo(?)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And how did that happen?  Could you just explainto the committee?

UNKNOWN: Pardon?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could you just explain to the committee howdid this happen, who was involved and why was it done?

UNKNOWN: The person I remember who was there was MrKosongo and I can't remember the others, but their intention wasto go there because there were people who could (inaudible) otherpeople as religious people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many ministers of religion, if you canrecall, all in all were there?  Just an estimate?

UNKNOWN: Estimation is plus five or six.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And where did they attempt to enter into negotiations? Where was the venue and who was there?

UNKNOWN: They used to go to the Presbyterian Churchwhere Mr Kosongo was the reverend.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And were the members of the 3 million alsopresent?

UNKNOWN: They came once and the youth lost control. Senator Bloem managed to let them escape because the youth wasnow out of control.  And the intention of the meeting was actuallyto bring peace back.  Because the community at that time was soangry.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In trying to resolve this amicably, did youmake any attempts to contact the ANC head office to come to yourassistance?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we did make attempts.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When was this done?

UNKNOWN: I cannot remember the days specifically, butI remember that it was between October month and December wherebywe indicated to them.  I even got information that some of the3 million members were in hiding.  It was at about two o'clockand I took them to the camps.  I took those children to SenatorBloem at about two o'clock and then he took them to Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: What children are we talking about now?

UNKNOWN: These were the members of the 3 million.

CHAIRPERSON: You refer to them as children.

UNKNOWN: No, not (inaudible) children.  I am referringthis to - I once caught two young children who were the membersof the gang and then the other members of the SDUs tried to killthem but I deny them and then took the children to Mr Bloem'sresidence and then he took them to Shell House.

JUDGE WILSON: How old were these two children?

UNKNOWN: Between 16 and 18 years.

JUDGE WILSON: And what did the other people want to doto them?

UNKNOWN: They wanted to kill them.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that the members of your self-defenceunion?  Or who wanted to kill them?

UNKNOWN: The members of Premier.  They were sittingin one place to defend their area there.  So I caught those childrennear their camp.

JUDGE WILSON: Who wanted to kill them?

UNKNOWN: The workers of Premier.

JUDGE WILSON: The workers of Premier Milling wanted tokill two children?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Thulu, are you still referring to theincident which happened October and December?]

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you personally accompany these childrento Shell House in Johannesburg?

UNKNOWN: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you won't know who assisted them in ShellHouse?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know.  What I knew is that theywent with Comrade Dennis Bloem to Johannesburg.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Dennis Bloem took them to Shell House.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified about the men or employeesof Premier Milling Company.  How did they get involved?

UNKNOWN: These are the people who resisted everything
that was done by the 3 million gang, more than the community ofMaokeng.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The death of Masusu(?) caused by yourself,did you thereby achieve anything?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What?

UNKNOWN: Peace and stability.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you telling the committee that becauseof this one man, Masusu, there couldn't be peace and stability?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In what way was he stopping it alone?