Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee comprising of myself and Judge de Jager and Madlala, -  we are hearing the matter of the Madlala brothers, Jabulani Madlala and Falake Professor Madlala.  Who's appearing for the applicant?

ME DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  My name's Dehal, Roshan Dehal.  I represent both the applicants, Chair, that you have referred to.  It seems to be agreed that we will begin with the applicant, Mr Tom Jabulani Madlala and then deal with the application of Falake Madlala.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll do that.  Who is appearing for the objectors, if any?

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, my name is Raven  Harkoo.  I appear for the family of the victims.  I have discussed this matter with them.  I do not particularly have any objections to the application apart from disclosure and perhaps the opportunity of the applicant to apologise to them.

CHAIRPERSON: You will give us the names, you will write out the names of the people that you're appearing for and hand it in at some stage, so that it will form part of the record?

MR HARKOO: Sure.

CHAIRPERSON: How many victims are there that you are representing?

MR HARKOO: There are 13 victims in all of whom five are present today.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're appearing for the five?

MR HARKOO: For the five, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Yes, are we ready to proceed?
You may call your first - you may call the applicant.

ME DEHAL: Chairperson I think it's just for the Evidence Leader to place his details on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have any details to place on record?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  My name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.  Thank you.

ME DEHAL: I'm indebted to you.  Mr Chairperson, just before we begin, perhaps I should just clarify that in the course of the last two days, despite the difficulties of our time - sorry, despite the time constraints in consulting with Tom Madlala, we've endeavoured to formulate a statement which is at the moment ready and attempts are being made to have it faxed here to these offices.  It has not arrived as yet, so as to expedite the matter, I have decided to proceed with the application as it is.  As and when that statement arrives, I will use it.  Forgive me that indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: That's quite alright, you may do so.

ME DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the second applicant?  You have a statement of his, you're not calling any further statements from him?

ME DEHAL: Yes, I have a statement.  His is on its way.  It should be here in the next hour.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the second applicant?

ME DEHAL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ME DEHAL: May the applicant be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: (sworn states)

ME DEHAL: Mr Madlala, is it correct that you made an application for amnesty which is contained in this bundle, marked pages 8 to 22?  Sorry, I'll show it to you.  Here it is.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: Have a look at these pages, pages 1 to 7.  Is this application on pages 1 to 7 in your handwriting?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Yes, that's correct.

ME DEHAL: Do you confirm the correctness of the contents of this application?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Yes, I do.

ME DEHAL: Now on the first page, page 1 in paragraph 7 (a) you say that you were a member of the African National Congress, in (b) you say that you acted as a Chairperson of the Youth League under the United Democratic Front, is that correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: And on page 2, under paragraph 9(a), you say that as a - sorry, leading the UDF Youth League, you were responsible for the death of IFP members, do you see that?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: And you say that this incident took place on the 25th of March 1990 at a place called Umtwalumi in the Umzinto area near the Caesar Bantu Beer Hall, correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: And in paragraph 9 (iv) at the bottom of page 2 of the bundle, you set out the nature and particulars as follows
"There was a dispute in the area between IFP member who were led by chiefs and councillors of the area, you called them Umtwalumi tribe and the UDF, the Umtwalumi Youth League, which was formed by yourself."

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: You say that
"The ANC was in exile at the time and chiefs were opposing any formation of an organisation associated with it.  Those chiefs were Chief Bhekizizwe and Luthuli and Chief Khalakuba Kawula."

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: On page 3 of the bundle in paragraph 10 (b) you say that
"As a result of this on-going conflict, many people were killed on both sides and houses were burnt."

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly tell us, he's applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of who in particular and on what dates, because we'll have to give that in our decision.

ME DEHAL: That is contained, Mr de Jager, in the next paragraph on page 3, 9(c) where he gives out the names as Mr Jabuliswe Thabethe, Mr Nana Shinga, Mr Thulani Gumede and others and by others, if you look at the pages, I don't know whether you have this in your bundle, but the first two pages which are not enumerated, preceding page 1, you will find that there are sixteen persons names there, it's for all sixteen.

JUDGE DE JAGER: For all sixteen named as victims in the summary by the analyst?

ME DEHAL: Correct.  May I just confirm this?  Bear with me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I presume he wouldn't know the names of all the persons killed at that occasion, but he's applying for all the deaths that occurred on that date at that place during an attack they launched.

ME DEHAL: That is correct and in addition, may I just say that it was incorrect for me to presume that the first two pages preceding the application at page enumerated 1, details all the victims, it does not, in fact on the contrary this is a page that details the names of some of the comrades who participated within the ranks of the ANC under the wing of this applicant and also some of these people were killed well after the applicant came to be arrested and not on the applicant's instructions, so perhaps I could take instructions on that later and clarify it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that what is clear is that he may not know all the people that were killed, because he wasn't the only man, he was part of a group of people that carried out a general attack and some of his colleagues were responsible for some of the deaths and so on.  I understand that because he gave the order and because he led the people, that he's assuming responsibility for their acts.

ME DEHAL: Absolutely correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that being so, I think that at some stage, you will get him to tell us people whom he personally was involved in attacking, injuring or killing, point one and that he takes responsibility for the deaths of the others who's names, if they are made available to him, he may confirm.

ME DEHAL: Thank you very much.  Mr Chairperson, I think that these two questions are somewhat exhaustively dealt with in the proposed statement I talk of.  Unfortunately it's not here.  Thank you.  May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

ME DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr Madlala, I now take you to page 3 of your application.  We were dealing with paragraphs 9(c).  You've detailed the names of some persons and you say: "and others".  That is something we will deal with later, okay?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Okay.

ME DEHAL: Now in paragraph 10(a), you say - sorry on page 3 at the bottom
"The political objective was to create political tolerance and liberating your people from the laws of apartheid."

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.