Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Chairperson, that was our modus operandi, what if the person we were looking for, would get out of the door and run away from us and remain with the rest of the group in the house?  That is the reason we called them out, was that we should as soon as possible finish with the arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I mean how were you going to arrest them if you don't go into the house?   How do you arrest them if you take all your people out of the house?  Are you not supposed to, well, I don't know unless you say that is how you operated, I don't know how you do arrests, but I am a lay person, I don't know.  How do you do arrests if you go out of the place where the people are in that you want to arrest?  That is the question.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Chairperson, we knew that we were going to arrest all of them if our members were outside.   What if we call everybody outside and one of the people is Charles and he runs away, now if our people are outside, all of them are outside, obviously the ones remaining inside, will be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps.  Sorry, Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Sorry Mr Chairman.  Mr Radebe, you know about house penetration?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I think so.

MR SHEZI: You have conducted such an operation?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: That would mean that some of you would remain at the windows, maybe others at the door and there would be people who can come in and that is called house penetration?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: I am saying, was it not the best thing or wouldn't you agree that it was going to be better to conduct a house penetration in that Shosha was in a better position to come in and outside of the house, she would have just whispered to the other members of your team to say that now you are going to conduct a house penetration and you could have easily arrested these people without anyone, possibly Charles, running away, what is your comment?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not agree to your statement Chairperson, we did not know what was happening inside the house.  The problem would be inside, if Shosha gets into the house and whispers to the other two people, what would be the impression created out of that?  They would ask themselves why does she not speak openly, I don't know whether I am responding to your question.

MR SIBANYONI: But she did whisper to them because they were able to come out of the house, is that so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I called them, I don't know whether she whispered anything to them.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Shezi.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had done this operation that my colleague refers to as house penetration, you were seven in your contingent, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there were two windows?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were five outside?  So if you put two people at the windows, you are three left, is that right?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you still have two people inside?  Is that right?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have outside with you Shosha, who has been involved in this thing, she could give you any information that you wanted, not so?  She could have told you there was a kitchen and a sitting room and there are five people inside, or whatever the case might be, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.  Chairperson, if someone inside had an AK47 and we get into the house, and they start shooting, that would be a risk.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you would take the risk, you wanted to arrest them, that is neither here nor there, unless I misunderstand it.  The point I am trying to ask you to respond to is then you would have had two people at the two windows where people could possibly go out, you've got five people that could go inside the house and do the arrest, because you would be able to cover the doors as well, what was the problem?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The problem is we did not trust them at all, because they had lied already, telling us someone is at a house up the hill.  We had been to the house up the hill, it was a wrong house, there was no trust at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, could you tell us, suppose there wasn't a shooting, what would have happened, how would you have arrested the people if you were all standing outside and they were inside?  What would the next step be?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Two people would be at the window and the rest would guard the door, but just after finishing with our plan, there was gunfire.

ADV DE JAGER: But tell me, how would you carry out the arrest if you people are standing outside and they inside and there is no gunshots now being fired, what would you do, how would you get hold of them?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were going to kick the door open and arrest them inside because we would know that no one of our members is inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would take the two out, to just take them back in again?  You would take the two out and just to take them back in again, to arrest these people?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There were no positions given to each one at that time, people just placed themselves at the windows.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I mean on what actually happened there, the two of your members that were still inside when Shosha was outside with you, all you basically was then going to do, all that you were going to do was to take them out, right, you called them out, Shosha whispered there to them and they go out and then you all go in again and then you arrest these people, or you leave two at the window or whatever you were going to do.  We don't understand how people affect an arrest, I have never arrested anybody in my life.  I am just trying to understand how the arrest would work and that is why we have been asking you to explain so that we can also understand.  Mr Shezi?

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman, maybe just one more question, on page 20 of that document, last paragraph, can you have a look at that.  It says, this is your statement by the way, just to tell you, it says you
"... at the spot where Const Shosha pointed out, I saw a wooden shack and there was a coloured light in the shack.  When we got out to the spot and we all go out, that is the five of us, as we got to the shack, I saw a window and a door in the front and we took up position outside."
	Why did you take up position outside the shack?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Shosha had told us already that we must arrest them.

MR SHEZI: So now it is Shosha who told you to arrest them?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No, she came to the kombi and said these people are lying, can we arrest them and I said "let us arrest them", but I said that in Zulu.

MR SHEZI: Where did you tell Shosha this,  at the kombi or when she came to tell you, where?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Telling me what sir?

MR SHEZI: You said Shosha came to say to you at the kombi that "these people are lying to us, I think we should arrest them", now, Shosha was telling you this at the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SHEZI: So when you came, you came and you took up positions?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We did not know the position of the house, we walked up to the house.

MR SHEZI: I am talking about the shack now which is outside the house, a shack, just one-room shack.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I am referring to that as well.  Those of us who were in a kombi, did not know the house, the structure of the house.  We went out to approach the house.

MR SHEZI: Just two issues to put to you, I put it to you that there was never any decision to arrest these people, all that was devised was a scam to group together as many comrades as you could in one spot and then shoot them?  Can you comment on that?