Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR LAX: But you don't know why he was hitting her, that was your previous evidence.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: As I have just stated, I think that that is the reason why he hit her, in order to encourage her to give clearer answers or perhaps more answers.

MR LAX: But he clearly didn't say anything that gave you that impression?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: He never said anything to her that would have given you that impression, otherwise you would have known the reason?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.  I cannot recall that he said anything specific to her.

MR LAX: So he never said "that answer is not good enough", whack?  "Give me a better answer", whack?  He never said anything like that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: So why do you draw that inference?  Either you know or you don't know?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he was asked to, the question was why do you think, so I mean he is giving an explanation which is ...

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Fair enough, fair enough, I am not being fair to the witness, fair enough.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you sir.

MR LAX: Again, why do you draw that inference?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't know, I cannot say why I am putting it this way.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr van der Westhuizen, I understood from your other evidence that you participated actively in the interrogation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not in the specific interrogation.  Mr Botha didn't understand something which she had said or one of her responses, then I attempted to interpret it for Mr Botha or to other members.

ADV BOSMAN: So actually you were acting more in the capacity of an Interpreter?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not specifically as an Interpreter, but I did translate for Mr Botha at stages.

ADV BOSMAN: But didn't you actively put questions?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I cannot recall that I ever asked anything.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  You indicated in answers to questions from Mr Lax that  she was answering the questions and despite that, she was being hit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So why did you say in your evidence earlier that she wasn't co-operating?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't recall saying that, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot recall that being said.  My note is saying that she was answering questions.

MR VISSER: If I may assist Mr Chairman, I think Mr Wills might be correct in the sense that the witness did say that when Taylor wanted to recruit her as an informer, she was uncooperative.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That was, but I cannot say, I am just referring to my notes now, my fresh notes.

MR VISSER: Yes, in that sense I think he did say that she ..

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot say why she was hit, she did respond to questions, but you did say earlier that she didn't agree to become an informer?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Just - if a person is answering the questions when asked, do you think, do you personally think it was necessary to hit her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So you obviously must think that Taylor acted excessively in that circumstances?  In other words you wouldn't have acted in the same way had you been in charge?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I don't believe I would have.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now all the other witnesses who we have heard, and Mr Taylor also agrees in his statement, were consistent in so far as they indicated that she was prepared to cooperate.  What makes you say that she wasn't prepared to cooperate?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is my recollection of the interrogation.  When Mr Taylor asked her to act as an informer, she refused.  I think he asked her once and we assumed that she wouldn't.

MR WILLS: So we know that Taylor is either mistaken or being untruthful in one sense, when one refers to his statement and I am referring to page 6 of, sorry page 4.

MS THABETHE: Page 5.

MR WILLS: In that your opinion Mr Taylor must either be untruthful or mistaken when he says that and I quote from the last paragraph in regard to this incident, where he says
"... in my presence the woman was never assaulted and I am not aware of any injuries that she might have sustained."
	That is clearly untrue according to the evidence so far?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct sir.

MR WILLS: Yes.    And when he says here therefore that, just bear with me,  in the second paragraph on page 5 of the Bundle, page 6 of his affidavit
"... I asked her whether she would cooperate with us in order to arrest them, she indicated that she would do so provided her identity was not disclosed."
	How do you comment?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is not my recollection of what took place.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that she refused even to cooperate in regard to giving information concerning the arrest of the others?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, what I mean is about the fact that she would act as an informer.

MR WILLS: Yes.  No, I am not asking you that with respect.  I am quoting from Taylor's affidavit, and I am wanting you to comment on this statement.
"... I asked her whether she would cooperate with us in order to arrest them, she indicated that she would do so provided her identity was not disclosed."
	Do you remember that occurring?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can recall that she provided information in connection with the terrorists, but I cannot recall - no, I cannot recall this specifically.

MR WILLS: The evidence of Mr Botha is that she did cooperate?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: She did cooperate, she did respond to questions.

MR WILLS: And she, Botha says in his affidavit and I think Mr Chairperson, I think it is somewhere around page ...

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, can I be of assistance to Mr Wills?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you can be of assistance if you don't know what he was going to put?

MR WILLS: (Microphone not on)  Thank you, I am referring to an English translation where ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the paragraph number?

MR LAX: Microphone.

MR WILLS: Somewhere, the paragraph commences
"... and she admitted that she had contact with four foreign trained terrorists."

MR LAX: Page 19, paragraph 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 19, the third paragraph.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
"...  Col Taylor asked her if she would cooperate with us with a view to arresting them, she agreed on the condition that her identity would not be revealed."
	Is that correct in your view?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that.  It is possible that I may not have been present when this was asked.

MR WILLS: You see, because it seems from what all the evidence has been so far, that you've got what you wanted out of this woman, there doesn't seem to be a reason to continue beating her.  The evidence, the operation is as far as I am concerned, and as far as the inference from all your evidences, is that you wanted to get your hands on the foreign trained terrorists, not so?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now she is telling you that she is prepared to cooperate and give you information to arrest them, but the beatings continue, can you explain that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot explain that, I cannot answer on behalf of Mr Taylor.

MR WILLS: Because the understanding that I've got is that the beating carried on right up until the end of the interrogation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Minutes before she died, probable seconds before she died?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wills, may I just come in here please.  Mr van der Westhuizen, were any persons ever arrested on the basis of this information, do you know?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I know of.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Wills.