Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

ADV SANDI: Sorry Adv van der Walt, Mr Black, are you not trying to say that perhaps it might not serve a very useful purpose to cross-examine this witness on things which he has no personal knowledge of, that he does not claim to have personal knowledge of those things anyway?
	Isn't that the point you are trying to make?

MR BLACK: That is sir, because if I had been allowed to elaborate, what is happening, what is included, it wasn't intended to mislead the Committee that he has personal knowledge of this, this information is there and which we received, as confirmation of the information which he had earlier received from Hlaza and these are examples as to reinforce that.

ADV SANDI: A lot, as I understand it, a lot of this was part of the briefing that was conveyed to him and he believed it and he acted on it?

MR BLACK: Not at the time, to make it very clear.  This is the information, this specifics in 14 were actually conveyed to him by Keswa which confirmed the original instructions which - under which he acted.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, I am still with the same paragraph and I would just like to ask if what is said there, is that the truth?
	If we can go back to Kumedi and Tebete, where they injured under the instructions of Mr Msibi as well as assaulted, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's put it - carry on, carry on.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: According to my knowledge, that is so.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to continue, the liberation movement was unable to operate constructively and freely within the Piet Retief area as a result of the combination of forces consisting of para-military trained members of the IFP and the South African Police who ensured that Msibi and his allies were supplied with various weapons and arms.
	Is that correct as it is put there?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.  As I have already said, this was from Msibi and Keswa's mouths, they said this.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then continue to say Msibi housed the Black Cats, the members of the South African Police who actively assisted in arming and assisting IFP and Black Cat members in Piet Retief, where Warrant Officer Pienaar and Sergeant Mkhwanazi.
	Knowing what the Black Cats have done in Ermelo and Davel, we did not want to see innocent people dying.  Is that correct sir?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.  As I have said the information that Pienaar was working together with Mkhwanazi and they were training people at the Camp and ascaris as well.  As I have said I got this information from Keswa.

MS VAN DER WALT: I received instructions from the ANC command in the area to monitor Msibi and his allies.  My further instructions were to proceed to Piet Retief area and establish Self Defence Units and to train them in self defence.
	Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, exactly.

MS VAN DER WALT: In the next paragraph sir, paragraph 15, you continue to say my instructions were to eliminate Msibi and disarm him.  Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Let me put it to you this way, your evidence was or your statement rather was read to you yesterday by your Advocate, paragraph by paragraph and you confirmed that, this same statement, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well.  Before we got to paragraph 13, or the first statement Exhibit A came to light and then you experienced problems and then instructions were given that Mr Msibi must be represented and then when your evidence was led with regards to the incident regarding Mr Msibi, these paragraphs were not read to you.
	You gave oral evidence concerning that incident, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Something was read here yesterday concerning Piet Retief, but I don't remember whether the whole statement was read.

MS VAN DER WALT: You gave evidence, you sat there and told the story about what happened yesterday afternoon late.
	Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, in the way that I prepared to go and kill Msibi.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you would have continued in the way in which this statement was placed before the Committee as with the other paragraphs, then it came out very clearly out of paragraph 14, that Hlaza was killed and that Tebete and Kumedi were assaulted and because of that, and the fact that the ANC cannot operate there as they wished, you got instructions to monitor Msibi and to kill him.

MR BLACK: I honestly don't quite follow what is happening here.  First of all I must come to I think Mr Gushu might be more confused than I am, but I dispute the fact, when we got to the convictions and the specific incidents, it was not read paragraph by paragraph, as suggested by my learned friend, and certainly there were many occasions in which Mr Gushu would - went off and spoke entirely on his own.
	I don't want to waste time, because the record would speak for itself.  As far as Piet Retief is concerned, by that stage I had received so many objections particularly from my learned friend when it came to an attempt to lead or speed things up about Piet Retief, that I had in response to her objections about this incident of Msibi, I more or less said okay,, you say it in your own words.  So there was no other motive and I don't know what my learned friend is trying to suggest.
	Also there was the method of leading the witness, you will recall Mr Chair, the statement had by that stage been signed and in order to speed it up, I made a general confirmatory, he made a general confirmation of the contents of the statement.  I don't know what, where we are going, if there is any suggestion that there was a sinister motive in allowing the witness to give evidence in the manner in which it was not being led, then I fail to see what the objection is.

MS VAN DER WALT: I do not think Mr Black understands what I am putting to the applicant.  I will orally indicate it to him in his statement, but I would firstly like to say in your statement as it is contained in page 36, paragraph 14, you misled this Committee, because there out of that, if you read it, you realise, or read it independently, it seems as if Mr Hlaza  was killed and that Mr Tebete, Andries Kumedi was assaulted and as a result of that, you received the instruction to go and monitor Mr Msibi.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, could you tell me is that the only conclusion that can be made from this?

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect Mr Chairperson, I would then also look at Exhibit A where it is described in exactly the same way and if it is read independently from what was said or what his oral evidence was, it clearly seems as if Mr Hlaza was shot - without reading anything extra, and after that ...

CHAIRPERSON: The way I understand you, the witness could not have received an instruction to kill Mr Msibi from Mr Hlaza because he was already dead?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying he coloured in his amnesty application and worsened it to draw or sketch a picture before this Committee, which is not correct, but I would like to show him that his oral evidence is contradictory to what appears in his written application.
	I am saying that he is colouring it in.  Thank you.

MR BLACK: Sorry, before you go.  Mr Chairman, may I once again just - I tried to make it clear yesterday and I think Mr Gushu has also made it clear that if we are going to spend time on semantics here, it is quite clear the purpose of this evidence and even if you compare it with Annexure A, the contents of paragraph 14, was simply referring to incidents about which he was told after the incident of Msibi, namely and served as confirmation of what he was told of Mr Msibi's actions prior to it.
	At the end of the day he was just carrying out orders from an order of the Commander and it is not his (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I think we all heard you the first time.