Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR VISSER: (Continued)   The witness, Botha, is still giving evidence.  
	Mr Botha, yesterday you took an oath to speak the truth, do you still consider yourself committed under that oath?
That is correct.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Yesterday we got to the point where we were discussing the structures, because we haven't got a better word, which was put there in order to combat the onslaught and we were discussing that.  Now briefly, this is not now the time and place to give us the whole international security management system as such, but just briefly, it came down to the fact that the head of the security management system, it was a State Security Council under the chairmanship of usually the State President and that there was a pyramid of structures which was created and persevered under the State Security Council which was delegated downwards and the purpose of this was in order to fill the gap between the highest level of management and the ground level and to increase more cooperation, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, in the other side of the story at page 151 there is a helpful - 151 Mr Chairman, there's an organigram, I'm not going to go into any detail about it, it's self-explanatory and if you would perhaps in the newly marked bundle 3 turn to page 356 to 362, you will find a brief summary of what we are talking about Mr Chairman, with names and etc, a very brief summary.  356 of the newly marked bundle 3, Mr Chairman.  It's only a few pages up to 362, very briefly and fairly well summarised Mr Chairman, so that that part can be read at your convenience at any time.
	Now this is the one side of this issue, not true Mr Botha?  There were these national structures which was installed in order to fight the war but really you want to tell the Committee something about what happened on ground level where you had specific problems which wasn't necessarily national problems but which you had to handle on a day to day basis, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us then in your own words how you saw the situation, what the problems were and how you decided to address them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, in 1986 there were already existing structures at police head office and they functioned and they functioned under the name of Trevits: Anti-Revolutionary Information Task Team and from time to time there were requests from Trevits with regards to certain information needs which had to be addressed by the different security divisions.

MR VISSER: Both the police and the defence force or only the police?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The requests were directed at all the intelligence services who operated within South Africa.

MR VISSER: Is that also national intelligence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you say the requests were coming from these agencies?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.  The request came from Trevits to all the agencies.

MR VISSER: And this dealt with information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I don't interrupt you but while you are going to talk about Trevits, I would like you to also give us your ideas about why there was talk in Tevits about target development and what it meant.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Very well Chairperson.  Trevits, as the acts of terror escalated in South Africa, Trevits expanded up to division level and here I refer specifically within the police framework as security branch divisions.  Consequently division Port Natal and also later the other two divisions within the Natal borders, Northern Natal and the Midlands, they were incorporated into one province, they formed part of a District Trevits Committee.  For the purposes of the gathering of information and as far as Trevits was concerned, we were grouped together with the division Eastern Transvaal which is now known as Division Mpumalanga or Police District Mpumalanga.  The reason for this was both the security divisions which bordered with Swaziland which acted as a host country for ANC activities and which was also in the pipeline from Lusaka and it was a through route Lusaka, Mozambique, Swaziland, South Africa.  Inside of Swaziland there were certain structures of the ANC there, the Regional Political Military Committee and the Transvaal machinery which dealt with activities for the Transvaal areas and more specifically for Natal, the Natal machinery which was our responsibility.  Consequently you will see that there was an overlapping in as far as information gathering was concerned when it went across borders.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Botha, you refer to the RPMC which you describe as an ANC structure, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And if you then say the Transvaal machinery, was that underneath the RPMC?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And then the Natal machinery was the RPMC machinery?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It fell under the RPMC.

MR MALAN: And you when say it was your responsibility, are you talking about the gathering of information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes and as far as it was concerned with the Natal machinery.

MR VISSER: Maybe at that point, previously Natal was divided into three regions, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Which three regions were those?  Port Natal we know about that one, and then?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Division Northern Natal which was from the Swaziland border up to the Tugela River and the Natal Midlands or under the name Division Natal and that included the Natal Midlands.

MR VISSER: And who was the commander in Natal Midlands, that's Pietermaritzburg, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was the commander of the terrorist unit there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: As far as I know it was Colonel Vorster.

MR VISSER: And he is also one of the applicants in this case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you want to continue?

MR MALAN: Sorry, the commander of Port Natal, who was that at that stage?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Brigadier J.C. van Niekerk and in the same year '86/'87 Colonel Steyn, later Brigadier Steyn became the commander.

MR VISSER: Let us not get confused, I think Mr Malan wants to know who was the commander of the terrorist unit - oh, not?

MR MALAN: I looking for the person who had the same status as Vorster.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was Taylor, that was Colonel Taylor.

MR VISSER: That was the person who was at the head of the terrorist unit, so in other words to put it clearly, Vorster and Taylor were equals.

MR MALAN: But Vorster was situated in Pietermartizburg so Vorster was not the commander of the security branch only of the terrorist unit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And Taylor was also the head of terrorist unit in Port Natal.  And the Northern Natal region?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The security branch commander was Colonel Jaap Burger but I cannot remember who was the commander of the terrorist unit.

MR VISSER: You were busy saying Mr Botha that it was your responsibility to gather information with regards to the ANC machinery in Natal?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well, please continue?