Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Moodley the investigation was reopened in April of 1995 and a special investigation unit was according to the diary, established for the purpose of carrying out a, for the purpose of investigating allegations concerning the death of Dr Asvat, is that so?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes that is so.

MR KADES: Now when I look at your investigating diary Mr Moodley it strikes me that you were sidetracked completely, that you spoke to Mr Jerry Richardson, that he wouldn't give you any information until he received the R10 000, you paid him the R10 000 and you went off on an investigation concerning this young lady called Kuki, and you never again questioned Jerry Richardson about what he knew about the murder of Dr Asvat.  There is nothing in your diary which indicates that you did.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Because he wasn't involved in the thing.

MR KADES: Well what do you mean not involved?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: He didn't have anything to say about the matter. ...(intervention)

MR KADES: Well how do you know if you never questioned him?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I did question him.

MR KADES: Oh, where is that indicated in your diary?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: As I said this diary is not a diary as I would ...(intervention)

MR KADES: Yes I know, do you have a note of it elsewhere?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I don't have it here.

MR KADES: So what you ...(intervention)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: It would be in the office I think ...(intervention)

MR KADES: You are talking - sorry?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: If you ask Henk Hesslinga I am sure he's got the note.

MR KADES: I am talking about you and I am talking about what you did. ...(intervention)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I am not the only one who ...(intervention)

MR KADES: And Hesslinga will speak for himself ...(intervention)

MR CILLIER: With all respect Chairman, the counsel should give the witness an opportunity to answer the questions in full before he asks his next question.

CHAIRPERSON: We are all a little tired, would you give the witness the opportunity to answer the questions that you put to him please.  Thank you very much.

MR KADES: I will do that Mr Chair if you give me the additional time it takes the witness to.....(General laughter).

CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to get us to have completed this part of our, if we can, before quarter past seven.

MR KADES: Yes, I understand.   Mr Moodley I asked you to speak for yourself and leave Mr Hesslinga to speak for himself.  Did you, Moodley, question Mr Richardson concerning the death of Dr Asvat and whether he had any information concerning the death of Dr Asvat?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I questioned him, I can't tell you what questions I put to him, we questioned him.  When I say "we" it was myself, Henk and - I can't tell you what questions I directly put to him, I am giving you a version of what had happened at that prison at the time.

MR KADES: Will you have notes presumably of the questions ...(intervention)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I don't have notes.

MR KADES: I am amazed.  And you didn't make notes in any diary or any book, any investigating diary and you didn't make any notes in the diary that we have here before us?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No.

MR KADES: Well you see my problem is this, and this is one of the problems of the Asvat family, that they would not have known that you had not questioned, that there was no note of your questioning Mr Richardson if this investigation and this TRC had not sat.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: With due respect to you Sir and the Chair, both Dr Asvat and the gentleman sitting next to him, I just can't remember his name now, were continuously informed by myself personally, as well as in the presence of Dr Ahzar Cachalia when this entire investigation was going on.  We were reporting back to them on virtually a weekly basis, maybe, or whatever, but we got together.  I got together in Mr Asvat's house on an occasion.  So what I am saying to you is that we kept them informed, they put questions to us, we answered them at the time, I don't have any records of it now but if you ask Henk Hesslinga he will probably have records, I am not saying he hasn't got records or he doesn't have records.

MR KADES: Mr Moodley, on the - Dr Asvat was killed on the 27th of January 1989, on the 26th of January there is a card indicating that Mr Richardson, that Dr Asvat had treated Mr Richardson and a note in red on that card, saying, in the handwriting of Dr Asvat, saying "Sent by Winnie".  You are aware of that or not?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I am sorry, I ask for apologies here, I didn't understand it, which part of the Richardson questioning this was, if it was at that time during the actual murder, on that date, it would be in the investigation diary of the docket.  Sorry about that.  But if you talk about 1995 this is what I am talking about.  Sorry about that.

MR KADES: Did you question Mr Richardson, did you refer to him, the entry in the card regarding the date of the 26th of January 1989 that he was treated by Dr Asvat?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I did not personally, no.

MR KADES: No.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No.

MR KADES: And did you refer to the entry on the card that Mr Richardson saw Dr Asvat and received treatment from him on the day that Dr Asvat was murdered, the 27th of January?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No, no.

MR KADES: Did you not think that was significant?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I did not, no.

MR KADES: You don't?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I did not, no.

MR KADES: You didn't?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I did not question him on that....

MR KADES: Is it not significant to you that Mr Richardson saw Dr Asvat within probably hours of Dr Asvat being murdered?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I would think that very significant, but I think Henk Hesslinga would have done that.

MR KADES: No, no, no we are not talking about Henk Hesslinga, please, let's talk about Moodley, you, Moodley.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I told you for the fourth time now, no I did not.

MR KADES: Why not?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Me Moodley did not, because I didn't question the man so how can I ask him if I never spoke to him and I never questioned him.
   I am sorry Mr Chair through you, I think I have answered this question.  I at no stage did I speak to Jerry Richardson during that time.  I only spoke to Richardson in 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry but I thought I heard you say that at the time of the murder we questioned him.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No, no, no, I am sorry Mr Chairman, if I came across like that it's totally incorrect.  I spoke to him in 1995 at the prison when this informer thing came about and the Kuki Zwane came about.  At the actual - that's why I apologised to the Advocate just now and said I am sorry, that information would be in the actual docket.

MR KADES: Sorry what information would be in the actual docket?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: If Jerry Richardson was questioned by Henk Hesslinga it will be in the actual docket.  I did not question him so it won't be in the docket.

MR KADES: I see, and you didn't consider that this was a line of investigation that you should again follow up in 1995?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No.

MR KADES: Did you read the docket before you embarked on the 1995 investigation?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I did not.

MR KADES: So you went into it blind?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I was led by Henk Hesslinga.

MR KADES: So if you have not done anything that maybe you should have done the reason for that we will find with Henk Hesslinga?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's correct.

MR KADES: I see, who conveniently is not here today.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I don't know about conveniently, but the man had two operations and he's lying in bed, he's prepared to come here though.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just find out how far you are Mr Kades?