Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ELIZABETH MAAKE: They were not going to school at that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... Jackson who was attending school.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, that's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... give you reports on Jackson because hewas a scholar and gave you daily reports on ...

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, she was giving me a report on a dailybasis.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did they put on uniform to go to school?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, they were wearing uniform, grey and white.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you buy him uniform for the year 1987?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: No, I didn't buy him uniform in 1987.  He wasstill wearing the 1986 clothes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you buy him books for the year 1987?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: We were not buying books, we were getting books
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from the school.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You were paying school fees.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, we were paying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you pay any school fees in respect ofthe year 1987?  In the year that he disappeared, that year, didyou pay school fees for him?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: No, I didn't pay school fees yet at that time.

UNKNOWN: Your elder sons, what are their jobs?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Phillip Maake.  The second born has died, andthen Sydney Maake and Jackson Maake.

UNKNOWN: What was Phillip doing in 1987?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Do you mean Phillip?  He was working.

UNKNOWN: Do you know where he worked?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: I don't remember the name of the factory.

UNKNOWN: ... and Sydney?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Sydney is working at Manpower.

MR CURRIN: I have no questions in re-examination, butI do have a question which is not evidence inasmuch as I thinkit is important to hear what the witness's view is regarding thisapplication.  What her feeling is about amnesty, and I would liketo just give her an opportunity to express a view of the application,if I may.  Could you please advise the members of the Committeehow you feel about the amnesty application which has been broughtregarding the assassination of your son.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: I don't forgive, Sir.

MR CURRIN: Is there anything else you would like to addto that?

ELIZABETH MAAKE: I don't have forgiveness.  What I want is theymust show me the place where they have killed my son.

MR CURRIN: Do you wish to add nothing more than that?
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It would seem that that is all the witness wishes to say.  I haveno further questioning.

ELIZABETH MAAKE: Yes, I don't have anything to add.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You are excused.
 This might be a convenient stage to adjourn until 9.30 tomorrowmorning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
438

MR CURRIN: : ...on record with regard to the applications,we've been asked to place this on record on behalf of the familymembers.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean, are you going to giveevidence?

MR CURRIN: : Well on their behalf we've been asked to makecertain admissions, certain statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't there an appropriate time for that later,after all the evidence is led?

MR CURRIN: : It could be except they only want to testifyon the way the feel about the amnesty application.  With regardto the involvement for example of Andrew Makope, Mrs Makope, inANC activities, she just wanted us to place certain things onrecord rather than testify to that.   If the Committee would ratherhear her make all these statements, that's fine I mean we don'thave a problem with that, we just thought we could maybe curtailproceedings a little bit by placing certain things on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any difficulty in that regard?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, we feel that if the victimcomes and testifies about how the victim feels, we don't havea problem with that.   If the victim comes and testifies and contradictsthe applicants on material facts pertaining to the happeningswe feel we should have a right not to vigorously cross-examinebut just to test the evidence on that basis.   If my learned friendis going to place on record certain facts in respect of the factsof the matter, that means that I will not be able to test theevidence of the victims in that regard.   If he wants to contradictthe evidence of the applicants then we should be afforded, withrespect, the opportunity to ask them
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questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin, if these are non-controversial matterson which you wish to place the matters on record then I am preparedto allow you to do that.

MR CURRIN: : It's uncontroversial, we're not going to contest,it's not a question of contesting, it's a question of confirmingcertain aspects of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, bear in mind that if there is going tobe any statement that you are going to make which might have tobe tested by cross-examination then it will mean you will haveto lead that evidence through your witness.

MR CURRIN: : I understand that I've had experience withmaking statements before this Committee before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, maybe you were allowed a great latitudeat the time but Mr Currin you may proceed by making your statement.

MR CURRIN: : Thank you.   Mrs Makope wishes us on her behalfto confirm that her husband...

UNKNOWN: Haven't you got a copy of this statementMr Currin?

MR CURRIN: : I have a copy of a statement which we tookfrom her and I'm just...

UNKNOWN: Yes but the facts you want to put beforeus, haven't you prepared a statement putting the facts that youcould hand it in?

MR CURRIN: : We could do that later, we can do that latermine is full of handwritten notes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR CURRIN: : There are no new facts, these are facts thatyou've heard before except what we will call her to say.   Hedisappeared on 15 July 1987.   He had come home to buy
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things for their three week old baby and she never saw him againafter he left.   She says she knew that he was politically activeand she also knows that he was a member of the African NationalCongress.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we...

MR CURRIN: : I'm speaking on behalf of, this is on behalfof Mabel Makope who is the wife of Andrew Makope.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR CURRIN: : She also knows that he used to cross the borderto Botswana and I will get her to confirm this in evidence thatshe had a brother in Botswana who was in exile by the name ofFreddie and he used to visit his brother in Botswana.
 Finally that he had been detained once for one day by the police.  We will now call her as a witness to talk about her feelingswith regard to the application and deal with one or two aspectswhich are slightly controversial.  Thank you.
MABEL MAKOPE (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN

<UNKNOWN>: You heard what I stated a few moments ago tothe Committee, I want to just ask you a couple of other questionsregarding your husband and you must just answer the questionsas I put them to you.   Did you hear that?

ANSWER: Yes I did hear.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you.   There was evidence that your husbanddrove a blue Gallant, what vehicle did he drive?

ANSWER: I don't know that blue Gallant, he was drivinga white Mitsubishi car.

<UNKNOWN>: When did you last see that?

ANSWER: I saw that car for the last time when I saw him
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for the last time.

<UNKNOWN>: I see and the car has disappeared completely?

ANSWER: Yes he went with that car.

<UNKNOWN>: Your instructions are that he had been detainedon one occasion for one day, and I put that on record.   Did hehave any other interaction with the police of which you are aware?

ANSWER: No I'm not aware.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he share with you any information withregard to his political activities?

ANSWER: What I only know is that he used to go to hisbrother in Botswana, he used to visit his brother to Botswana.

<UNKNOWN>: Other than that he didn't talk about his activitiesto you?

ANSWER: No sir.