Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

CHAIRPERSON: Today we'll be commencing with the hearings of Messrs Botha, Maree, Basson, van Zyl, Burger, Verster, Webb, Barnard.  I'd like to welcome you  all here.  Before we commence, I'd like to briefly introduce the Panel to you.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, he's a member of the Amnesty Committee, he's an attorney and he comes from Pretoria, Gauteng.  On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, also an attorney.  He comes from Pietermaritzburg in KwaZulu Natal and I am Selwyn Miller.  I am a Judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Division of the Court.  These proceedings will be simultaneously translated and in order to benefit from the translation, you must be in possession of one of these devices.  If you do not have one, they will be available, I'm sure, from the Sound Technician.  I can't see him at the moment, but he must be around somewhere.  There he is.  If you want to benefit from the translation, please get one of these.
	I would at this stage request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.  Let's start here.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, the name is Marco Martini from the law firm Martini, Patlanski in Johannesburg, representing Mr Abram van Zyl.

MR BOSMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm Alex Bosman, attorney, acting for Joe Verster.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, J J Wessels.  I'm at the Johannesburg Bar and I represent Mr Verster.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the name is P du Plessis from the firm David Botha, du Plessis and Kruger on behalf of Burger, Basson and Maree.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, H J Du Plessis of the firm D P  Du Plessis Attorneys from Pretoria, acting of behalf of Gen Webb.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, I'm Coetzee, S J Coetzee, an advocate practising from Centurion.  I'm acting on behalf of Mr Barnard.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, J A C van Eck, representing Mr Botha, from Johannesburg.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, my name is G Bizos.  I'm a member of the Johannesburg Bar and counsel employed by the Legal Resource Centre in Johannesburg and I appear together with my learned friend Colin Khanovitz of the Cape Town Bar on behalf of firstly Mr Gavin Evans, instructed by Mr Steve Khanovitz of the LRC in Cape Town.  I'm also appearing for Minister Dullah Omar, instructed by Ms Faizlin Omar, who also happens to be the Minister's daughter, instructed by Faizlin Omar of Hofmeyr, Herbsteins and Gihwala of Cape Town.  I also appear together with Mr Khanovitz in all the matters, for Ms Fatima Omar, a victim of the Early Learning Centre, a bomb incident.  We also appear for the owners of the Early Learning Centre, the Foundation of Community Work, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name is Peter Williams, I'm an attorney, but I'm acting in my personal capacity as a victim.  Mr Chairman, if it please the Committee, I would also like to place on record at this stage my disappointment at the selection of this venue.  My family, my friends and members of the community would have like to be present at these hearings, but this venue is inaccessible to them and accordingly they can't be here.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Williams.  This venue had to be changed and at short notice the venue was changed.  There are however, I know it's not quite the same, facilities outside with close circuit television for people who wish to observe the procedures, but I note what you say.

MR HOCKEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The name is Selvin Hockey.  I'm an attorney with the firm Moosa, Waglay and Petersen in Athlone.  I act on behalf of Oesman Alexander, Chris Ferndale and Bruce Malgas.  They are all from the Kewtown Youth Movement, at the time and then I also act on behalf of Regina Isaacs, Mazeema Mohamed, Miranda Abrahams, all members of the Cape Youth Congress at the time and all of them were present in the building of the Early Learning Centre when the bomb went off.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.  My name is Lyn Coleridge.  I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  Chairperson, just in relation to implicated people, I have 13 Exhibits that I have furnished to everybody.  The first one is in relation to Isaac Engelbrecht, that's General Engelbrecht, well-known as Krappies Engelbrecht.  The attorneys Wagener and Associates furnished us with a document whereby he denies all allegations in respect of this incident, Chairperson.  Can we, just for the record ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is everybody in possession of this?  I have a covering fax cover and then an affidavit.  Can we receive this, we'll call it Exhibit A.

MS COLERIDGE: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless there are any objections.

GEORGE BIZOS: We have received a copy.  We have no objection to it being filed as Exhibit A, but our concurrence in this is not to be construed as an admission that we accept the correctness of the contents and we reserve ourselves the right to ask you, Mr Chairman, if need be, to call the deponent to that affidavit to give evidence and to answer relevant questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos.  This affidavit will then be received and called Exhibit A.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson.  Then there is another affidavit, submitted by Goldberg and Victor attorneys, Chairperson, on behalf of Nicholas van Rensburg.  In the statement he states that he was not the admin person, because we were a bit in a tizz with regard to who this Nick person was and just on record that he states that he is not that person and the only involvement was that he visited Botha when Botha was held in terms of Section 29, Chairperson, so can we mark that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Unless there's any objection, we'll receive this as Exhibit B on the same basis as indicated by Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Chairman, yes, that is acceptable to us.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, just also in relation to other implicated people, Brig Cole was informed and notified.  Gen Joubert from Special Forces was also notified.  Mr P W Botha, the previous Minister, and then Gen Genis as well as Isgak Herdien, Chairperson.  I believe our investigators have been having a problem in serving this notice because it seems that he is dodging the notice, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll give him the benefit of the doubt until we know better whether he's dodging or not, but it was not possible to serve the notice.

MS COLERIDGE: That's correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: There is a preliminary matter that we want to deal with and that is this, that Minister Dullah Omar intended being here this morning.  Unfortunately pressing business kept him in Pretoria.  I am here, together with my colleagues, to oppose the applications for amnesty.  	However, Minister Dullah Omar is the Minister responsible for pirating this legislation through Parliament and for a number of years the Minister responsible for it's implementation.  He wants to avoid speculation as to what his attitude to these applications is.  He has prepared a statement dealing with this issue and I think that it is important in order to avoid speculation, that that statement should be read to you and I think it would be appropriate if we ask his daughter to read it on his behalf and I ask for leave for her to do it now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objections from anybody?  ...read the statement into the record.