Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR NTONGA: Despite that?  Okay fine.
	Is it not correct that your evidence is not your evidence that you did not see who fired the shots or did not see what happened.  You heard them...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He saw - did you see the bodies lying there where they had been standing, Pama and the other man, you saw their bodies when you recovered, lying where they had been standing where you left them, is that not so?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: What I said, when I awoke after having fallen unconscious, when I regained my consciousness, I saw Makumba and Pama lying on the floor with people exclaiming as to what a tragedy it was.

MR NTONGA: In what position were they lying?  If you can remember?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Mr Makumba was lying skewed or across and Mr Pama was lying on his back like he was pointing out the chairs are like that - Pama that is - Pama is with the right hand and then Makumba is using the left hand, like that.  Horizontal and vertical.

MR NTONGA: And apart from the two - you were asked this question by the Commission - apart from the two shots that you heard and the barrage that you notice after you have recovered that you were hit with three, can you tell us whether you heard any shooting away from you upon the first two and those that were directed at you?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting he said the first two shots were directed at him?

MR NTONGA: I'm saying apart from the two that you heard and those that had hit you, did you hear any shots being fired away from you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No I did not hear any other shots.

MR NTONGA: That's all thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

UNKNOWN: I've no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NODADA: I have no re-examination Mr Chairman.
ADV. GCABASHE: The person in khaki who had the cap on and the khaki jacket, did you notice him carrying anything in his hands?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I saw a pistol appearing.

MR LAX: Sorry, we lost a bit of your translation there, would you just repeat that?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I saw the barrel of the pistol appearing.
ADV. GCABASHE: Would you recall if he fired any shots?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I do not know whether the two shots, first two shots were from him or not.
ADV. GCABASHE: Did you see the man who was carrying a newspaper - we have heard that there was a man carrying a newspaper - did you see this man at all?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No I did not see him.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you, no further questions.

MR LAX: Where exactly, if you can remember this, you've mentioned this khaki clad person, where was he in relation to where you were and where the other two were?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: If I can demonstrate the two people were about this close and then the pillar about here, in the front here, the pillar of course and then myself behind the pillar and he at about the distance of this white ...[inaudible] fellow here.

CHAIRPERSON: What the witness indicated was that the other two people were about eight to ten paces away from him and that if he was facing them midway between them, or thereabouts, would have been the white pillar and the other person in khaki was to the left, some six to eight paces away from him and perhaps three paces away from the other two people.  That is, when I say to the left, to the left from where the applicant was facing in the direction of the other two people.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Just one other small issue and that is what happened to your firearm?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: My gun - I later saw that my gun was inside - inside here.

MR LAX: You indicate in the front of your waist?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Under the belt of my - not in the holster any more, under my belt in the front.

MR LAX: So somebody must have picked it up and put it there for you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I think at the time when I was unconscious someone may have picked it up and pushed it under my belt in front.

MR LAX: When policemen fire their weapons, you normally fill out a report to say how much ammunition you used, how much you were issued with and how much was left over.  Did you do such a report and was there only that one shot that was fired?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No I did not make such a report.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, why not, is that not normal practice to do that report?

CHAIRPERSON: He was in hospital for twenty eight days.

MR LAX: Of course.  You were in hospital for quite a long time.  When you came out did they not ask you to do such a thing or was it just left?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, nobody asked me to make such a report.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NTONGA: That is all that I want to lead from the side of the victims.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, do you have any evidence that you wish to lead at this stage?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, no there's no evidence or no further evidence that I intend to lead.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything anybody wants to say?
	It has been agreed that the matter cannot reach a conclusion till we have heard those of the other applicants which come before us for a hearing.  As has been stated before, the applicant has applied for amnesty in respect of twenty eight occurrences.  It has been arranged and I trust it will continue, that the applicant will be kept down here for the rest of the week and that will enable his attorney to consult with him with a view to obtaining proper information about the twenty seven other matters which are subject to a hearing or either hearing or decision in Chambers but quite obviously we will require a great deal more information about them and I trust that the applicant's attorney will consult with Mr Prior as to the details required.  Once those further particulars have been obtained the matter can be fully investigated and arrangements will then be made with the legal advisers of the applicant and the victims as to the date and venue of further hearings.  It may be that the hearings will be held elsewhere and the victims taken to the scene rather than coming down here if there are no more public hearings arising out of events in this vicinity but that is a matter which will have to be arranged after consultation between the parties.  
	Is there anything else any of the parties wish to raise for me to make a ruling on at this stage?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, there's just one matter, possibly, any address or argument regarding this specific matter, that is the UNITRA incident, obviously we're not going to address or if the parties are not going to argue now, that argument may be in a form of written argument at some other stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Well there may be many other submissions that they wish to make after we have heard evidence in respect of other matters.  It may be that some objection fall away, it may be that some become very much more important and I don't think it would be proper to ask parties to commit themselves to argument at this state and then find themselves in the embarrassing position later and saying I did submit that but I don't want to submit that any more.  I would recommend that for their own benefit they would like to make notes of what has transpired to date to assist them but there will be a transcript made of the evidence led which will be available.
	A further matter which I think I should draw to the attention of the applicant's attorney and that is that we've received a further affidavit which has been affirmed to, to today and there was an annexure to it but the annexure is not in the form of an affidavit which is not being confirmed by anyone and whether any value can be attached to such a document is perhaps doubtful.  I merely draw that to Mr Ntonga's attention at the present time.

MR NTONGA: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will now adjourn to a date and a venue to be fixed and I would thank the victims for their assistance here today, for what was quite obviously a harrowing experience of reliving the past.
We will now adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS