Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: If there were political conflicts, as I've already mentioned that I was born and bred there, if there were political conflicts or violence, I would know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know of political conflict or violence anywhere in the neighbourhood, anywhere close by there?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes, I used to hear about them.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard that IFP people attacked others, killed people?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes I used to hear about it.

MR WILLS: Just of regards violence of the area and the political violence, I put it to you that Mr Mtolo, my instructions are that he was a member of the ANC and had been for some time at the point when the persons, the applicants whom I represent became members of the ANC.  You cannot dispute that, not so?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No, I don't know his political affiliation at all therefore I cannot dispute that.

MR WILLS: And I put it to you that there were people and as I understood your question there were persons, youth, you accepted that there were youth residing in the forests but you just didn't know them, is that how you answered a question put by the evidence leader?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes that's exactly what I've said.

MR WILLS: Yes but because you didn't know their political affiliation you wouldn't be able to dispute the fact that they were ANC people?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: It is not easy to know the people who were residing in the forest to know even who they are because we were not told they were staying in the forest.

MR WILLS: Did you know about the fact that there were two people by the name of Bongani Mswazi and Kopela Meyiwa were killed when they were staying in the forest?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: If you can please repeat their names?

MR WILLS: Bongani Mswazi, that's M-s-w-a-z-i and Kopela Meyiwa, M-e-y-i-w-a.  Did you hear about them being killed?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I heard that they were killed in the forest near Mashawase.

MR WILLS: But you didn't know why they were killed?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: As I've already explained that people from Mashawase were fighting each other.

MR WILLS: Did you know Bonga Nsomi?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Bonga Nsomi?

MR WILLS: Yes.

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: There are many Bongas that I know, I don't know which one you're referring to right now.

MR WILLS: I'm referring to someone who I'm instructed was a prominent IFP leader in the area.

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No I don't know him.

MR WILLS: Finally Mr Gumede, I just want to put to you Exhibit F, this is a publication by an organisation which calls itself the Natal Monitor and it's a summary of political violence in Natal for the period April/May 1992 and I want to read the reference concerning the Illovo area.  It says
"On April 11, 5 people including a pregnant woman were killed and at least 14 injured when a group of allegedly IFP supporters armed with AK47's opened fire on refugees staying at an Indian temple.  They had fled the violence in the Mkwali and Pakazi area where several had been killed earlier in the month."
The point that I'm making is that even a publication picks up that there is political violence in that area.  Can you comment on that?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: There was never violence at Mkwali.  If there were people who ran away from Mkwali I don't know why they were running away because there was just no violence at Mkwali.  I cannot deny that there were people who ran away from Mkwali if there were any but I don't know why because there was no political violence.

MR WILLS: Finally, I put it to you Mr Gumede, that you do know that there was political violence, that you are affiliated to the IFP and you've come here to oppose this application because of your political affiliation?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I am not a member of IFP and I was never, maybe I'll never be one.  I'm not an ANC and I've never affiliated myself with any political organisation.

MR WILLS: Can you give us any reason why the bus was attacked?  No money was stolen, no women were raped.

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: This is a mistake saying that there was no money robbed, people were robbed of their money, even the bus driver was robbed, the money.  It's a mistake that the bus was just attacked merely to kill the people, people were robbed their money and they have proof because some of them just came from banks and they withdrew money on that day and that money was robbed.

MR WILLS: You have consulted with the evidence leader who is representing you here, I saw you consulting this morning.  You consulted with her yesterday, not so?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: That is so.

MR WILLS: Why was this never put to any of the three applicants and why do you not mention this in the statement you made to the police that appears in the record?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: We are different witnesses, each and every one of us will give testimony according to the way he or she wants to put and maybe other people who were in the bus can tell you as I'm telling you that some people were robbed of their money.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Gumede, I just want to know, did you see any people, any of the applicants taking money from the driver or taking monies from the people that were in the bus?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No, no I didn't see a single on of them.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: I would like to call Ms Anna Elizabeth Ndlovu as my next witness and my final witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Anna Nomtanda Ndlovu?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 173.

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: (sworn states)

MS MTANGA: Now Ms Ndlovu, I'd like to draw your attention to page 173 of the bundle which is a statement given by yourself to the police.  Do you confirm that this is your statement that you gave to the police and do you confirm that the contents of the statement are as you gave them to the police in 1992?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes even though I don't know what's the contents because no one read the statement to me now.

MS MTANGA: Ms Ndlovu, I read the statement out to you yesterday and today and there's a handwritten one as well.  Do you deny that you saw the statement?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes, you read the statement to me but the first part of the statement is not so clear to me.

MS MTANGA: Okay, would you like to go through the statement now?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Can I just explain Chairperson, I think the witness, she read the statement but she disagrees with part of the statement.  It's not the beginning, it's actually a paragraph of the statement, I think that's what she's trying to voice out.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps she should tell us, deal with it and let her tell us what paragraph she disagrees with?

MR LAX: May you can help her, Ms Mtanga, because you've taken her through this thing?

MS MTANGA: Alright, the witness disagrees with the contents of paragraph 5 which states that saw the applicants outside the bus on the left hand side calling out to their colleague inside the bus to let the women out.

MR LAX: You disagree with that, do you?

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: Yes I disagree with that because I was the one who shouted first before he could say so.

MR LAX: Tell us what you shouted.

ANNA NOMTANDA NDLOVU: I said they must please forgive us because we have young children and I even hold my breast and I told them that I was breastfeeding.

MS MTANGA: Ms Ndlovu, I also brought your attention to the evidence you gave in court which was summarised by the judge on page 107 of the bundle.  The summary of that evidence is the same as the contents of paragraph 5 of your statement, do you also disagree with that summary that it's not what you said to the court or in court?