Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS MOLOISANE: If I understand you correctly, on the 15th of August 1993 you were the chairperson of the youth league.  Is that your evidence?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know the applicants in this matter, Abraham Mkhwanazi, and John Radebe?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I know them.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes.  Just explain to the Committee how you know them, and whether they occupied any, or whether they were any, whether they were members of your organisation or not, and if so what portfolios did they have.

STANLEY GQIBA: Let me start off with Abraham Mkhwanazi.  He is the one that I knew first.  He was staying at Zone 12, we recruited them into the organisation.  He was still young by then and could only qualify as a member of the so-called pioneer movements, who the members of which were under sixteen.  We had set up their own structures to which we referred as the pioneer movement, and that is where we groomed the leadership of the ANC.  Radebe I knew very late, and I got to know that he came from Small Farm.  I knew him through other members of the organisation at Zone 12.

MS MOLOISANE: And did he, Radebe, belong to any specific structure in your organisation?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, he was a member having been introduced to the organisation by other members of the youth league.  I cannot remember whether he had a membership card or not, but I think he did because we wanted that everybody who was to be a member of the organisation had to have such a card.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, tell this Committee about the events of the 15th of August 1993.  Did you see them on that particular day or not?

STANLEY GQIBA: I do not remember what day you're referring to.  I cannot even recall the date the 15th.  I don't know, I cannot recall what happened.

STANLEY GQIBA: Let me put it this way.  Can you recall the events of the, that led to the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted murder of Elsie Mokoena, during August 1993?

STANLEY GQIBA: I cannot recall what happened prior to their murder, but I remember hearing that they had been killed.  I only heard this the following day.

MS MOLOISANE: Prior to their killing, had you or hadn't you see John Radebe and Mkhwanazi?  Did they, or did they not, come to you, and tell you something about the two girls?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, but they did not tell me about the two girls.  They told me about their, our enemies which they had already captured.  I remember we were talking about that, but then I was at work, not at the office of the organisation.

MS MOLOISANE: Where did you work?

STANLEY GQIBA: At the Hollywood Night Club.

MS MOLOISANE: Where were your offices?  The offices of the ANC youth league, where were they?

STANLEY GQIBA: They were within the premises of the night club.  There were rooms where we were accommodated by the owner, where we had an office.  That's where our office was, but the night club was detached from the offices and we had separate entrances.

MS MOLOISANE: What I want to know is was it in the same, was this office and the night club in the same building?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: So on this particular day when they informed you that they had captured your enemies, how many were they?

STANLEY GQIBA: I can only recall that there were two of them.  Radebe, even 'though I cannot be sure, but the two people that I can still remember were two, Radebe and Abraham.

MS MOLOISANE: So, is there any other thing that they asked or required from you, or wanted from you, apart from the report that they made to you concerning the capture.

MR LAX: Well maybe, maybe you should canvass what report they made to him, because it's very, it's very unclear from his testimony what they said to him.  Maybe you should just canvass that.

MS MOLOISANE: You earlier told this Committee that they told you that they had captured your enemies.  Can you just elaborate on that.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is anything to elaborate upon.

MS MOLOISANE: Pardon Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: He can elaborate on that if he feels there is anything to elaborate on that.

MS MOLOISANE: I do agree Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it's sufficient for him to say that's what they told him.

MS MOLOISANE: It was his evidence that he did not know, they did not specify whether they had captured girls, but they told him that they had captured their enemies.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he feel he can add on further on what was said by Radebe and Mkhwanazi?

MS MOLOISANE: Can you add anything further onto that, or is that all that they told you concerning the said capture, their captives?

STANLEY GQIBA: One other thing that they said was that they wanted ammunition, which I said I did not have.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, proceed.

STANLEY GQIBA: One other thing that I can still recall is that they told me that these are the people who have been sought for a very long time, they are informers, spying on people in the township, and they have been warned several times about things that they were doing, passing on information, wrong information to the police, etcetera.  If I still remember very well, what I said to them, and this is what I used to say on a daily basis, that what we wanted, or what we liked as an organisation, was that a person or units who allege that people are informers have to be sure, bring forward evidence to that effect.  That was our stance.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, did they disclose anything concerning their captives.  I mean, the way you have just explained right now, you say they had to have evidence against the alleged spies.

STANLEY GQIBA: They did not have a chance to explain that to me because I was also busy at work.  They were disturbing me.  I only tried to establish this the following day.  One other thing that also happened was that I had heard about Hapile previously.  This was a rumour that's been going on for a while that he was apparently a member or an informer, she was apparently an informer.  One other person who was alleged to have been an informer, even 'though they were not friends were, one other friend of hers, Elsie, was later rumoured to have been an informer, Hapile as well transpired earlier on to have been an informer.  These people were apparently warned together with others earlier on.  They were called to order and presently we still have others in the township and as to whether they were continuing with their activities this time I don't know about that.  They are the ones who should testify to that effect.  To the effect that they continued passing information on to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we are interested in getting from you Mr Gqiba, is whether you, in your capacity as the chairperson of the ANC in 1993, knew whether the persons concerned were alleged to be still continuing in their activities as previously rumoured before they were warned.

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, it oftentimes happened that we, for example, were within a political organisation, it so happened oftentimes for example we had SDU's in the township, we would hear the following day that so and so was in a particular place and that person has been killed and we would not know because such information would not be disclosed, and we would later on learn that such a person was an informer and this you would only learn during an investigation.  We usually did not get information, the whole information about a person alleged to have been an informer.  We would only get such information after the death of the person.

CHAIRPERSON: In this case, what information did not come to your attention?