Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MR OBOSE: No, no, but you didn't hear my question, you answered too soon.  Freedom songs in general are sung in political gatherings, or gatherings that are political in nature, in general?  As a Policeman, I am sure you should know that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was not in  a meeting sir.  I was taken to the College and when I arrived there, those songs were being sung.

MR OBOSE: My question is general Mr Makwethu, I am saying in general, isn't that correct?  No answer?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: They were singing those songs there, but I didn't know why I was taken to that place.  My worry was that I was taken there as Skepe told me where he was taking me to, or where he was supposed me to, I don't know why they took me to that place.

MR OBOSE: Captain Makwethu, the report that appeared in the papers the day following this hostage taking, was that plus minus 50 Officers were held hostage at Bisho Police College, would you agree with that report regarding the number at least?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I didn't see the paper.

MR OBOSE: I am asking about the number, would you agree that that is a correct estimation at least of the number of Officers that were there in the hall?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I can't answer that properly sir, because I didn't have a chance to count.  Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong, I don't know.  I can't answer that question.

MR OBOSE: Did soldiers join this meeting, some soldiers?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No.  The soldiers arrived in the morning, two of them, Major Mqozulwa's son together with another soldier, they wanted to know what was going on and they were told the situation and then they went, they were only two soldiers.

MR OBOSE: Also the answer was you can see what is going on and what was going on when the two soldiers got to the hall?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: They were in front of me, we were sitting at the stage and they were talking to Mr Mfene, so you could see them.

MR OBOSE: Yes, what I am saying is what as you could observe, could the soldiers see?  The answer was you can see what was going on.

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I don't know what they could see, maybe they could see that there were a lot of people singing, I don't know because they just spoke there and then it was said that the soldiers were even there, they didn't spend a long time here.  I have been testifying here for a long time now.

MR OBOSE: Did you hear about Brigadier Gqozo stepping down that particular night?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Okay.   Lastly, you say the Commissioner's office that is next to the Bisho Legislature, is that what you are talking about when you say it was surrounded by Police?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, the one who was next to Radio Ciskei on the other side of the fence.

MR OBOSE: So the entire building was surrounded by Policemen?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What impression did you get, what did you think as a senior Policeman, what did you think was going on?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I didn't know.  As I just said, I didn't know what was happening, but we were sitting there, now knowing what was happening.

MR OBOSE: But it was clear that something was going on, isn't it?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.  Nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?  Sorry, Mr Obose.

MR OBOSE: Nothing further, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, sorry, I misaddressed you.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few sir.  Mr Makwethu, when did you become a Commissioned Officer?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: In 1987.

MR MAPOMA: So when Gqozo took over, you were already a Commissioned Officer if I get you well?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you arrived into the Police College hall, did Mr Mfene speak in your presence?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, he spoke in my presence.

MR MAPOMA: Did Commissioner Nqoya arrive when you were already there?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you arrived there, these slogans "down with Gqozo",  down with yourself, was it also made "down with Nqoya"?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, after he had arrived.

MR MAPOMA: Correct me if I am wrong, it would seem that the Police on that day were in a state of revolt against the senior Police Officers?  Do you confirm that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I can't say that sir, because as I have already said, I didn't know what was happening there, because I got it wrong at the first place and even when I arrived there, I was confused.  They didn't say, they were not discussing one issue so that is why I was confused.

MR MAPOMA: But you could see that there was some disrespectfulness against the senior Policemen on the part of the junior Police Officers, is that not so?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And when you were taken into that hall, you were taken there forcefully against your will by these junior Officers?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: When you were inside that hall, you were made to remain there until the following morning, much against your will?  Do you confirm that as well?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Are you able to tell the Committee what is it that Mfene was addressing the meeting about actually?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: When we went inside, Mfene said here are some of these big rats, misusing money.  He did say that.  Whilst we were still listening to that, the microphone would be given to somebody else, that is when we got confused.  There were toilets at the stage, you would only go and smoke in the toilets, that is all, you would come back again and listen to what was being said, but what I noticed is that he spoke about these big rats.  I didn't focus or listen or follow what was happening, I was thinking of sleeping at the time because I was supposed to be at home.

MR MAPOMA: Now, these complaints which were made about money embezzlement, were they also levelled to Commissioner Nqoya?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I can't remember, but Gen Nqoya was also part and parcel of that, we were all accused so I can't be sure about that, because he arrived late.  We had already spoken at the time, so I can't recall whether he had those things or not.

MR MAPOMA: These accusations about corruption and money embezzlement, were they from the theme of that meeting, from the juniors?  Did they attribute it in any way with Gqozo as the Head of State?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I don't want to lie sir, I don't know because the case was already opened at the time, it was being investigated by Superintendent Halani together with Major Kopel.  I can't say.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Makwethu.  Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett.  Does the panel have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Re-examination Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.    Mr Makwethu, what was the rank of Kopel at that time?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: He was a Major at that time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is a Major a Commissioned Officer?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was he put on the stage as well?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, he was on the stage, but he was working with the group that was down there, because there was a time when they were sent to Gqozo, Kopel also was in that group, he was sent by this group.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was the rank of Halani?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: He was a Lieutenant Colonel.

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is also a Commissioned Officer?