Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make a conscious decision not to attend ANC branch meetings prior to this event?   You said you didn't attend the ANC branch meetings, is there any reason why not, or - seeing - why I ask you that is, you say that when you were at school, you were prominent, I think you used the word, in school politics and that that's where you got to know about the ANC and you became a member of the SRC, now with that background from your youth, is there any reason why, when you left school, you didn't make any, or you didn't go to any branch meetings of the party that you supported, or the political movement that you supported?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The only reason is, I would say it's my lifestyle which I lived at that time, I would not be able to attend all meetings in our area, though I was politically conscious of what was happening in the country, but I did not dedicate my entire life to politics, so I used to attend meetings which are very short and then they are very informal, then they concern again the protection of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Were you employed at that time?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I was working at Edgars, but they were temporary work, but I was promised to be employed permanently.   At that time I was working though casually.

CHAIRPERSON: Just bear with me.   Yes, thank you.   Mr Mulligan, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put in by members of the panel?

MR MULLIGAN: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions arising?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, not necessarily emanating from the questions from the chair, but it is upon request by the wife to the deceased, Isaac Magae, she has requested me to put a question to the applicant on her behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, then I'll give Mr Mulligan to respond or react to that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Mr Ross, I'm requested by the wife to the deceased, she's sitting next to me here, to ask you a question as to why, if you had gone there to take arms or to rob arms, why didn't you just scare the police who were there and when they run, take the guns and go, why kill them?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is a question I expected to be asked, but as Ambrose I would not be able to answer that question the way it will satisfy her, but what I would say is that it is Comrade Kenneth's judgment which he was supposed to use his discretion at that time.   I don't want to be here and start to say it was right or wrong, he had a short time to make that decision and to take that action, because all of us agreed that we are going to handcuff them, then we'd take all guns which were found there, our intention was not to kill them.   We did not leave Diepkloof with the intention to kill any policemen in that particular police station.  As I say, as Ambrose, it will be difficult for me to say why it happened that we killed those people, it was Kenneth's judgment which he used at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan, do you have any re-examination arising out of that last question that was put by Mr Mpshe?

MR MULLIGAN: No thank you, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLIGAN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are there any questions arising that any of the panel... (intervention).

ADV SIGODI: Not arising, Chairperson, but just, what is your highest level of education, what standard did you pass, the highest standard that you passed?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Standard ten, sir.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

ADV BOSMAN: No further questions, thank you, Chair.

ADV MOTATA: Just a small one, whilst you were fleeing, let's say before you stopped at the garage to fill up petrol for R50,00, hadn't you probably in the car said, "But why did you shoot, what happened inside there?", I suppose you had interest to know what happened inside, because that was not according to your original plan?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: At that time, it was too soon to try to make a post-mortem of that incident.   What happened in that car, everybody was quiet, we were not talking.

ADV MOTATA: Now, after your arrest, the other two comrades who were acquitted, did you discuss this, why there was that killing there, because I see Kenneth was accused No 2 in that trial, so you must have been at the court or police station together, did you ask him what happened there, because now you had an opportunity to have the post-mortem?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I did ask him, though informal, as to whether that day what happened exactly.   Comrade Kenneth then said to me the deceased panicked and then he panicked also.   Those are the response he gave me, that the deceased panicked and he panicked also.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of that, I don't ...[inaudible]
	Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, we're not leading any evidence.   I have discussed and explained this to the victims herein, it is the wife to the deceased and the sister to the deceased, they indicated that they don't want to
 speak nothing at all.   Then that closes their case as well, Mr Chairman.   May I... (intervention).
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.   It's just been brought to my attention by one of my panel members that for purposes of the record, we would need the name and address of the persons who would qualify as victims to be referred to the reparations committee.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is right, Mr Chairman, I was going to do that, Mr Chairman, at the end, in terms of section 22 of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   I see it's just before one o'clock, gentlemen, I don't know what you want to do with regard to the argument in this matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I had a discussion with my colleague, Mr Mulligan, on this and we were ad idem that as soon as we finish with the evidence, we will be in a position to can argue.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then perhaps that would be more convenient after the lunch adjournment that's starting now, I see it's just a few minutes before one o'clock.  Thank you, so at this stage then we'll then adjourn for the lunch adjournment and after the lunch adjournment the panel will hear the submissions from the parties.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Mulligan are you ready?