Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I did that at the beginning of last year.

MR WESSELS: The beginning of last year, that was 1999?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: For the first time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Did you contact the Deputy Attorney-General, Dr Pretorius, and tell him about it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I did.

MR WESSELS: Can you tell us how it happened that you went to go and see him.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, accompanied by my legal team I went to go and visit Dr Pretorius concerning a matter and at a certain stage the discussion took a different turn in which they made an offer to me and asked me if I did not want to talk to them about certain incidents.  Which I then did.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, don't hold back, tell us why did you go and see Dr Pretorius, was it true that there was a police investigation held against you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It's not relevant to this Commission.

MR WESSELS: It is relevant.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is not at all.

MR WESSELS: You were investigated in - am I correct if I say that there were various factors of fraud, insurance fraud?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at all, and I'd like it to be removed from the record, because at no stage did this happen.  So you are willing to speculate.  I'm telling you at no stage first of all, and secondly, it's not relevant.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, I will put it to you that I will argue that the reason why you went was because you were in trouble.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I would just like you to qualify the difficulty, and I'm not threatening you now, but if this results in damage to my person I will give instructions to my legal team.

MR WESSELS: You are welcome to do it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Then I'd like to ask you to make sure about the facts.  I'm not speculating, I'm asking you to do the same.

MR WESSELS: Then tell us why did you go to Adv Pretorius?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I've just told you it is not relevant to this Commission and it's got nothing to do with insurance or any relevant matter concerning insurance.

MR WESSELS: What was the offer that was made to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They spoke to me about Dr Webster amongst other things, including other activities of the CCB.

MR WESSELS: And what was told to you concerning Dr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They asked me if I wanted to talk about Dr Webster, the truth as I saw it or knew about it.

MR WESSELS: To share this with the Attorney-General.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: How do you want me to explain it to you, must I use legal terms?

MR WESSELS: Did you then decide to do it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: And what would you have then told the A-G?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As I've already mentioned.

MR VAN ECK: Chairperson, this point has been dealt with, Mr Wessels asked for documentation, we did take it up and I've already placed it on record that Mr Pretorius them do not want to make known the contents or give the documents.  And to ask it now in an oral fashion will not help.  We cannot give them the documentation, we also cannot talk about the contents thereof.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, are you not willing to say what you received for the disclosure that you made to Adv Pretorius concerning Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I received nothing except the agreement that I will qualify for a 204 if I tell them the truth.

MR WESSELS: And is that everything that happened there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will repeat it.

MR WESSELS: I beg your pardon?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will repeat it, yes.

MR WESSELS: So that is the full deal that was struck between yourself and the Mr Pretorius?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If you see it as a deal, it can be a deal.  There was an agreement with the office of the Attorney-General and I agreed with it.

MR WESSELS: And there were no further advantages for you, apart from the fact that you will not be charged with the Webster incident if you tell them the truth?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: No other advantages?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR WESSELS: So you then decided that you were going to tell the truth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is something that I decided to do.

MR WESSELS: You did not think about it before last year to do something like that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, at a certain stage I did discuss it with Mr Barnard.

MR WESSELS: When did that discussion take place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot give you a date, but at a certain opportunity I did discuss this with him.  I think it was over two opportunities that we discussed it.

MR WESSELS: Why didn't you do it then?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, because I did not feel satisfied about the fact that this is what I really want to do.

MR WESSELS: Then you made had this agreement with Mr Pretorius and then you made a statement.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, then they did it.

MR WESSELS: You went to Mr Barnard and discussed this statement with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I mentioned it to him.

MR WESSELS: Did he look at it and approve?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do not think that I took it with me, I think I just shared it with him.  I think I told him this what I'm going to do, I will keep to the facts as he gave it to me and he had no problem with that.

MR WESSELS: I see.  And in that statement that you made, did you then associate yourself with the death of Mr Webster?  And you came to this Commission or this Committee earlier on in this year and you heard about what happened here and the questions were put concerning the Webster incident.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And did you decide, what are you going to answer if they ask you questions with regards to Mr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Exactly what I'm doing today, I'm going to tell the truth.

MR WESSELS: You're going to tell the truth?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: So you will disclose your role in the death of Dr Webster, everything that came with that, the surrounding circumstances, etcetera?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell this to Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think he accepted that I was going to do this.

MR WESSELS: Why do you say you accepted that he was going to do it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well because I discussed it with him at a certain stage in C-Max in Pretoria.

MR WESSELS: And was this before the matters were heard in March, the beginning of this year?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I think it was probably before that.

MR WESSELS: So before this matter was heard in March this year, you went to go and visit Mr Barnard in C-Max in Pretoria and you told him there that you are going to tell the truth.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.  His sentiments were that he was not going to say anything, he's going to stick to what he said before.  He was investigated concerning Dr Webster and he was not going to say anything further.

MR WESSELS: So he realised at that stage that you're going to come and implicate Joe Verster and Lafras Luitingh, compromise them with regards to this murder.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well I did not apply for amnesty in this regard, so I'm not quite sure what my feeling would have been, if I would have testified about it or not.

MR WESSELS: But from the first day onwards it was probably very clear to you that Mr Bizos and others will ask questions with regards to Mr Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, and I could answer the questions as my advocate just answered your questions on behalf of Dr Torrie Pretorius.

MR WESSELS: No, this is not what it's about, he gave us an answer concerning the statement and what happened there between yourself and Pretorius, but he did not say that you will not come to testify about Verster and Luitingh's alleged involvement.