Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

UNKNOWN: Do you want to put a question to the witness in this regard?  Well I think then you should break it up because it's no use reading the whole bundle of evidence and then start questioning him.

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, I can put the question.  Mr Ngo says that there were five blacks and one white present the evening when you were assaulted -  Mr Ngo, did I say Motsamai?  Let me tell you who says they were - Mamome, Tsoametsi, Motsamai, Ngo, Mtyhala and he later in his evidence added Cronje.

CHAIRPERSON: Do have any comment on that Mr Mohape.

MR MOHAPE: No I think my comment is going to be simple, if you can read to the statement of Ngo, there was a question mark about Motsamai and if you want to to ...[intervention] ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you have any comment on that Mr Mohape?

MR MOHAPE: I think my comment is going to be simple.  If you can read to the statement of Ngo, there was a questions mark about Motsamai and if you want to ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Please Mr Mohape, the statement is there was five blacks and one white, do you agree with that or don't you agree?

MR MOHAPE: No, I don't agree with that.

UNKNOWN: Thanks.

MR VISSER: What has now appeared from your reply, however, is that you studies the application from Mr Ngo.

MR MOHAPE: Ag man you know, statements are here with my lawyer and I read what I can read in any statement and there's nothing wrong with that.

MR VISSER: I'm not suggesting to you there is something wrong with that, just placing the matter, the fact, on record Mr Mohape.
	Page 30, Mr Chairman, it's the middle of the page.  Page 30 of the bundle which is marked A2 according to the Honourable Chairman:
"Were you alone when you kidnapped Mr
		Mohape?"  
asks my learned friend Mr Memani.  Mr Ngo say 
"No, it was Ditsametsi"
which was later corrected to mean, intend to mean Tsoametsi.
"Mamome, Mtyhala and Cronje.  That evidence is quite clearly apart from myself and Mr Motsamai"
A moment Mr Chairman. - And he qualifies the attackers at page 34, in fairness to this witness, page 34 of that same bundle, where he simply says this:
"The white man, Cronje was left behind in the car"
That left five, five black persons on the assault.  What do you say about that evidence?  Do you disagree with that because you say there were four.

MR MOHAPE: I say people who attacked me were four.  To say there were five I cannot say, I could have not checked if how many there were is one was in the car or whatever but the people who attacked me at that time were four.

MR VISSER: While they were attacking you, were they talking, were they shouting, saying anything?

MR MOHAPE: So many things were said, they were swearing at me.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Ngo here at page 30, that you've just referred us to, saying there were four people who attacked you?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I can give you all the evidence, it's quite clear ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm asking you about page 30 Mr Visser, the passage you've just referred to is there, saying there were four people who attacked him.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON
"Were you alone when you when you kidnapped Mr Mohape?"
		"No Tsoametsi, Mamome,  Mtyhala and Cronje" 
Then he takes Cronje out, so he was reducing them to four at that stage.

MR VISSER: Yes, except, Mr Chairman, and I will refer you to that evidence in due course, that it is quite clear that what he said was that Motsamai was there as well.  And you will remember the evidence of Mr Motsamai, he said Mr Ngo was mistaken and in fact that also appears from his application as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So he says he wasn't there, Motsamai?

MR VISSER: Motsamai says he wasn't there, Ngo says he was there, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking us to accept Ngo's version?

MR VISSER: I'm just putting it to the witness for his comment.

CHAIRPERSON: His comment?  Can we now get on with something else, you say you're just asking for comment.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.  If you want a reference, that's C, page 12, bundle C page 12 where that incident is referred to by Mr Ngo.
	Now you are now assaulted, and you told us yesterday, with crowbars and hammers.  Am I correct?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: The issue with the crowbars, was that something which you picked up from Mr Ngo or was that something that you knew at the time?

MR MOHAPE: No, it was what happened to me.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Your estimation of the duration of that attack, you said yesterday twenty to thirty minutes.  Is that fairly accurate or that is just an guestimate?

MR MOHAPE: It is an estimate of what I believe they took, the time, it may be lesser than that or more than that but that is the estimate.

MR VISSER: But as it felt to you, thinking back today, would it have been at least fifteen minutes?  Would that be a fair assessment of the duration or what?

MR MOHAPE: Probably.

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, your second name - I'm just waiting for - here I've got it, is your name also Mosoeunyane?

MR MOHAPE: Mosoeunyane?

MR VISSER: Yes. M-o-s-o-e-u-n-y-a-n-e.

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you speak to any of the investigators of the investigation unit of the TRC in regards to this kidnapping and assault on you?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I remember I met Pula Zwane and I explained to him and he was asking me questions about my kidnapping, yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yesterday - in regard to Mr Motsamai, you referred me to the fact that his part of the investigation report, that bundle was E1.  I'm not certain whether the part concerning Mr Ngo is also E1 or whether it has a different identification.

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle E1 is Ngo, Bundle E2 is Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will then refer you Mr Chairman, to the bundle E1 concerning Mr Nelson Ngo - and unfortunately these papers are not paginated but the page I wish to refer you to, the previous page to that, is marked 1.1 and it appears to be a telefax transmission and the telefax numbering at the top of the page is page 03 and it is dated 18 August 1997.
	It is a document, Mr Chairman, which says: "Document Details", the heading, and it has columns on the page.  I don't know whether you can see this far, Mr Chairman, I can hold it up for you to try and identify.  Let me explain, Mr Chairman, there's and introduction, a typed introduction, it runs up to page 19.  Now if you just look after page 19, the very first document after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is 1.1, which is a whole lot of document details.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm going to refer you to the second page of
that document.  The fax, typewritten page is 03 on the right top 
side.  Now according to documentation received by us from the 
Investigation Unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, 
there is this document and I want to tell you what it says.  
It says: 
"Perpetrator Motsamai (SB) Security Branch picked
them, Mohape, White, Musamjani(?).  Human rights 
violation type:
it says:
"HRV type - severe ill treatment, severely beaten."
Now do you recall that you spoke to an investigator of the TRC about this incident?

MR MOHAPE: I think I've explained even yesterday, that yes, Motsamai has been involved in other instances where I frog-jumped at Fountain, and to me that was severe assault to me.

MR VISSER: Well I don't know why we have to make it so involved.  Did you discuss the incident where you kidnapped and severely assaulted with an investigator from the TRC?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I have.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  And did you tell him that the details were that you were beaten by a hammer and fists and by guns?

MR MOHAPE: I think I've explained that.  Everything was used on me including what I said was a tyre lever, that you can call it a crowbar whatever, but a weapon was used and if perhaps the investigating officer could have not by that time picked on that, maybe it is something else but yes, everything was used on me.