Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: And is it so that if you wanted me to assist you in anything I would have done it?  There was a time when you asked me to write a letter to one of the candidates for the election, Mr Anthony, I think it was him, and you knew that I knew that you cannot read and write, is that not correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it so that at a certain stage you informed me that Mr Anthony wanted you to help him with the election, but you then told me you feel that you do not want to assist him with the election, that you wanted to do it in the proper way and can I not write a nice letter to him and explain it very clearly why you do not want to assist him, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you not recall that you asked me to write you a letter at any stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It could be.  I know that I assisted Mr Anthony.

MR WILLIAMS: But maybe you will remember better if I give you the background, maybe then you'll be able to remember.  That in a very nice way you wanted to convey to Mr Anthony that you're not interested and you wanted me to write a very nice letter, no threats, nothing like that, just short and sweet, you're not interested in helping him anymore.  Do you recall asking me to help you write that letter?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall it because I assisted that man until the elections were over.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, some of the activities of the Kewtown Youth Movement, the activities they organised, is it so that we organised fetes, tournaments, you yourself organised tournaments, we organised dances, games evenings, etcetera, and even a health day to assist people in the community, can you confirm that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, you held a lot of functions in Kewtown.

MR WILLIAMS: And what was your impression of our movement, that we wanted our community to move ahead, to grow, that we wanted to build up the community, that we did not want the community to be broken down, is that correct?  Was that your impression?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And you do know that, or everybody knows that we distributed pamphlets of a political nature that for example, in some of the pamphlets - I know you found it difficult to read them, but some of the pamphlets, for example, said that the tricameral parliament does not include or does not give us, the Indians and the Coloured people full rights, so the people must not participate in it, because it was not good for our community.  But that was basically the information that we conveyed in these pamphlets, is that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall the pamphlets that you distributed.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, have you ever seen me light a tyre or throw a petrol bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I can recall, no.

MR WILLIAMS: Have you ever seen some of the Kewtown Youth Movement do it, people that you know personally?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Have you seen them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, definitely.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you give us the names?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know any of the names because I was busy with the campaign with Anthony, there were tyres placed in the roads, we could not pass through with all the people there and so forth.

MR WILLIAMS: But my question to you is, did you personally see the Kewtown Youth Movement members doing these things, or did you possibly see them at the scene?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I drove Mr Anthony's car and I had an argument with Chris and his people who were there.  I do not know - it was the Athlone Civic Centre, I do not know if you are talking about the riots now and they were very involved in the burnings and I've met them there a lot, because I was not involved in these things.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, can you just tell me, you know the community, you know there are a lot of people in the community and if there is, for example, a fight or something happened in the community, the people will leave their homes to see what was going on, or do they run back into their homes away from the dangers?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, they come out.

MR WILLIAMS: It's a very curious community and I'm not trying to be negative now.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand it.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So if an incident were to take place, many people would naturally have gone to the scene of the incident to see what was going on, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So my question to you is basically, the Kewtown Youth Movement members whom you knew and you saw with your own eyes, were they also involved?  Did you see that they were involved with that sort of behaviour?  Did you see them committing these acts themselves, or conversely, were they simply standing by and seeing what had happened, they way you knew your community?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Are you referring to what I said about the tyres?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, I saw Chris there and other members.

MR WILLIAMS: But the question is actually, did you see them commit the act, or did you simply see them in the vicinity of where the act was committed?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I saw them there.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see them committing the act?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well.  So in other words, if I understand your evidence correctly you have never seen Kewtown youth members commit acts of violence or arson, they could possibly have been in the vicinity, but you never saw them commit these acts?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, according to your own knowledge, have I ever planted a bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: have members of the Kewtown Youth Movement ever planted bombs, according to your own personal knowledge?

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, my instructions are to request whether Mr Williams could qualify as to whether he is referring to any stage or a specific point in time.  I understood him to mean that this was at any stage, but Mr Hardien wants to know whether or not this is confined to a particular period in time.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Hardien, I apologise for perhaps not having stated it more clearly, but Gakkie my question is basically this, according to your personal knowledge, in other words what you yourself saw and knowledge that you carried within you, can you tell the Committee according to your own knowledge, that any of the Kewtown Youth Movement members planted bombs?

CHAIRPERSON: He wanted to know at what stage are you talking about.

MR WILLIAMS: At any stage.

CHAIRPERSON: At any stage.

MR WILLIAMS: That is according to your own personal knowledge.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know whether they planted bombs.

MR WILLIAMS: So Gakkie, if I understand your evidence before the Honourable Committee correctly, then it is that you never saw me or any other member of the Kewtown Youth Movement commit acts of violence or you never saw us plant or detonate any bombs, you never saw us lighting any tyres?  Is my summation of your evidence correct?
	Perhaps I can make the question easier for you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I understand now.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you want me to put it more simply?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: He says he understands.  You can answer the question then.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: And Gakkie, I'm assuming as I know you, that you would not have told anyone that we were doing that sort of thing, am I correct in that assumption?  In other words, you would not have spread such lies about us, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: To who?

MR WILLIAMS: To any person.   You've just said that you yourself know that you never saw us do certain things, so in other words you would not have said the opposite to any other person, is that correct?