Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of the record, I just want to identify myself as Judge Pillay.  I'm going to ask my colleagues to do the same.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm Advocate Chris de Jager.

ADV MOTATA: I'm Advocate John Motata.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the representatives do the same?

UNKNOWN: I'm Advocate Samuels.

MR MAKANJEE: I am Sanjay Makanjee, an Attorney.

MS PATEL: Pamela Patel.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, you are the evidence leader?

MS PATEL: That is correct Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel are you ready to start at 9 o'clock this morning?

MS PATEL: I am Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels are you?

UNKNOWN: No we're not ready as yet.  The reason is that we are still waiting for our first witness Mr Kasrils.  He was informed that the matter would be starting at 10 o'clock.  He was incorrectly informed that the matter was starting at 10 o'clock.  For that reason we are not ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you start with somebody else?

UNKNOWN: Our next witness is Mr Nkosi, Duma Nkosi who is in fact currently testifying in the application next door.

ADV DE JAGER: And the next one?

UNKNOWN: Our third witness would have been Sally Sele who is also not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they or you or anybody else suggesting we've got to wait for them?

UNKNOWN: I appreciate your question, I cannot ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get on with it.

UNKNOWN: It was our strategy and our intention in these hearings to first call these three witnesses and I feel that their evidence is relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, sometimes in the best of times, in the best of struggles, in the best of wars, sometimes strategy needs to be changed.

UNKNOWN: I appreciate that.  May I take a moment to discuss it?   My colleague is chatting to one of the - may I have a moment please?  Thank you.
	It is still my instructions to ask for the matter to stand down for fifteen minutes so that Mr Kasrils may come in and testify.  The reason that we wish to call these three witnesses is that we wish to set the history even though many parts of the history are not disputed.  I still think it is necessary for example to explain the structures and the chain of command that would be an important issue in this matter.  For that reason may I ask that the matter stand down until 10 o'clock?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Samuels, could you kindly explain or give us a reason that we could give to the nation why the taxpayer's money should be wasted in this manner?

UNKNOWN: No reason.

ADV DE JAGER: We should have started yesterday morning.

UNKNOWN: I agree, quite correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And we're wasting people's money here.

UNKNOWN: I quite agree.

ADV DE JAGER: So you ...(inaudible)

UNKNOWN: No but may I submit that these hearings have been set down for a specific number of days.  We have endeavoured to reduce the number of applicants and we have done so.  For that reason I submit that we will finish...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the point, the point is that it's tax money being used.  Whether the matter has been set down for three weeks and two weeks and whether we're going to finish it with a week to spare is irrelevant.  Mr Samuels, you know I have difficulty with agreeing with your request because whether it is fifteen minutes or ten minutes, there's people out there who form ideas and gain impressions which may be correct or not, it doesn't matter and I think TRC, particularly the Amnesty Committee, have a duty towards those people.
	I must also say that the necessity which gave rise to yesterdays postponement is a result of, what I can only describe as sloppy preparation, whoever the cause of that may be.  It seems to me that your request this morning is based virtually on the same issues.  I know it's difficult for you to answer the question but one may ask how long is this carry on?  Somewhere we've got to draw the line.  
	I wish to point out also that I'd like to think that neither of us here or none of us sitting on this panel are unable to put into perspective any type of evidence that may be led in any order and it's not necessary for a chronological set of - bits of evidence put before us.  We can put in, slot it in where necessary and therefore I want to suggest to you that you start wherever you can and let's get on with the job and if your background witnesses become available tomorrow then let's slot them in then, we can do that.
	While we are waiting Ms Patel, is there any particular reason why the public are not being favoured with hearing aids?

MS PATEL: Sorry, I didn't realise that they didn't have any.  Yes certainly.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  I still wish to ask and with respect, for an adjournment, a small postponement on the basis that these three witnesses - it is again my same point that their relevant - it is information that is necessary to set the background to these hearings and my only submission is I appreciate that we could chop and change the order of witnesses but I would still wish to call these three witnesses to establish the background and I therefore again ask that the matter stand down for a while.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, the genie says you are running out of requests.  The genie, you know the guy that gives you wishes?  You're running out of your requests, you're using them up.  We'll adjourn as you requested till 10 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Samuels, on page - Volume 2 - page 1 and 2, there seems to be a list of applicants.  Are those all the applicants?

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do we find the others?

UNKNOWN: In Volume 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, okay.  Now shall we go through page 1 of Volume 2 and tell me which applicants need to be deleted and which not?

UNKNOWN: As discussed yesterday I have prepared a list of applicants that we are considering withdrawing.  I say that we're considering because we need to clarify them with the applicants themselves.  I do not think that there will be a problem and I can assure you, I can say that we have forteen names on our list.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed, why is it that you need to clarify that?  I thought we took the day off yesterday for that purpose.

UNKNOWN: Yes we did but we were not able to complete our process.  The process will be complete I assure you.  This list is almost certainly to be handed up.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are those, the list of those people, are they going to be withdrawn totally as applicants?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May I ask you to deal with matters relating to applicants which applications would be dealt with in chambers, has that been done?

UNKNOWN: No not yet, I will do so, I cannot give you a time period but I will do so as quickly as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know if you're going to call a witness or an applicant whose application should really be decided in chambers?

UNKNOWN: We know which applicants will be testifying, from that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: So how many applications are we going to hear in this matter?  How many applications are we going to hear?

UNKNOWN: Between 35 and 40.

CHAIRPERSON: These people would be admitting to offences and crimes related to human rights violations.

UNKNOWN: I have just been instructed that Mr Kasrils is imminently on his way.  He has called to say he is lost in getting to the venue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, you announced the calling of a witness, let's go with him.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, I am Sanjay Makanjee, I will be acting on behalf of Mr Chichela Machitje.

CHAIRPERSON: What number application is he?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, he is number 3 in bundle 3.

MR MAKANJEE: That's Volume 3 pages 1 to 21.

MS PATEL: Page 15 - 21, there's a typographical error.

CHAIRPERSON: By comparison, that's minor.  Did you say from page 15?

ADV DE JAGER: Amnesty number 7634/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel who are you appearing for.  Who do you appear for, I just need to record ...(intervention)