Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

MS MOODLEY: Mr Mngomezulu, you offered an explanation in relation to what Mr Teaspoon Mkhize as leader then of Wembesi of the ANC branch did in relation to the ANC hierarchy to solve this crises and to diffuse the tension that was prevalent at Wembesi.  You talked of the contact that was made with the Natal Midlands.  Is there anything that you wish to add in relation to the particular meeting that you made reference to where there was a shoot out that developed and what had emanated from there because I think it would be pertinent for the Commission to here that.

MR MALAN: Why don't you ask him a direct question so that he can understand what you want him to tell us please?

MS MOODLEY: I don't want to do it in a way that - I can do it then directly if you please.
	Mr Mngomezulu, would you tell the Commission about the events and the conditions that transpired after the meeting that Mr Teaspoon Mkhize had with Mr Harry Gwala at Wembesi in regard to solving the problem at Wembesi.

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Sorry, I understood that meeting was a meeting where Mr Gwala addressed them?

MS MOODLEY: Yes but I ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: It wasn't a meeting between Mkhize and Gwala it was a meeting where he addressed the branch and the followers, the members?

MS MOODLEY: Mr Mngomezulu has indicated to the Commission there was more than one meeting.

MR MALAN: And was he present at the other meeting?

MS MOODLEY: Who the applicant?

MR MALAN: Yes.

MS MOODLEY: I'm trying to now get the applicant to respond to the Commission on that particular aspect.  Would you like to answer that Mr Mngomezulu?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes.  I was present at the first meeting where Mr Mkhize and Mr Harry Gwala was present as well and the meeting didn't end well and there were no decisions taken between the Amabumvu and ourselves because there were few Amabumvu members, I think there were less than 15.
	Mr Gwala decided that he was going to report this matter back to the office in Pietermaritzburg and he will come back and report to Mr Mkhize.  Unfortunately he didn't come back but he sent Mr Msimande to come and explain to us about the SACP and when he was present Mr Msimande also didn't take any decisions or conclusions, we never resolved the matter and Mr Harry Gwala came again and that's when there was shootings after the meeting.  I used to go to these meetings but sometimes I wouldn't go inside the hall, I would be outside.

MR MALAN: Thank you.  Please Ms Moodley, if you have re-examination, I mean you must be more direct in asking your questions flowing from what ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: There is a point to this and if you would bear with me ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: But he has repeated all the evidence we have before us.

MS MOODLEY: Evidence in chief but I'm going to now say to Mr Mngomezulu the question of the leadership in relation to where Wembesi was always clear and uncontroverted, that peace must be brokered in that area of Wembesi, would you agree with that?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Would you please repeat your question?

MS MOODLEY: There was no confusion in the messages that were emanating from the leadership, would you agree with that sentiment that the leadership, both of the ANC and the SACP was clear that peace had to be brokered at Wembesi because that was in the interests of the entire community?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I wouldn't agree with that because there were people who never wanted peace at Wembesi.  For one, Mr Mkhize and Mr Phewa, those were the people who never used to come to Mr Mkhize's house and before they used to come but this was before the Amabumvu was formed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mngomezulu, I think what is being put to you is quite simple.  It was quite clear, clear as daylight, that your organisation wanted to broker peace.  The leadership of your organisation wanted to broker peace in your area and that has been your evidence all along?  Mr Teaspoon Mkhize always advocated that you should not fight against the Amabumvu?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes but Mr Mkhize will tell us not to fight Amabumvu but the Amabumvu wouldn't be present in these meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question, the question was just wanted to elicit what happened from your side, from your side as the ANC.  That I think was covered quite succinctly, Ms Moodley?

MS MOODLEY: I would just like to deal with one more issue in relation to political control over the area.  You understand the SACP not to be in conflict with the ANC, there was a campaign in Wembesi for the elections that were coming up shortly.  Can you offer any other explanation as to why something that was as clear as a bell to any member of the community that the ANC and the SACP were really a political alliance and that the election the next month after this incident was going to be contested behind one flag.  Why did you ever apply yourself to that situation and you had thoughts that you would like to share with the Commission on that about why, if a party was not in conflict with an alliance party, there was violence in your area?  Do you have any thoughts on that matter Mr Mngomezulu?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: No I don't have any idea, I cannot comment on that at all.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOODLEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I suppose this is the end of Mr Mngomezulu's application?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you will then proceed with the next applicant that being Mr Madlala.  After Madlala, you propose to call a witness in support of both of their applications who will generally throw more light on the political context at Wembesi?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will adjourn until tomorrow at 9 o'clock.  We'll again request correctional services to be in time.  We appreciate that they were here before 9 o'clock.  We hope we can still making that appreciation, would also appeal to the legal representatives to please be here before 9 o'clock to enable the proceedings to commence at 9 o'clock on the dot.  We'll proceed with Mr Madlala's ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Sorry Madame Chair, can I just butt in there please?  I have a slight difficulty with tomorrow because Mr John Wills who is representing Mr Ndaba and Mbanjwa had indicated to me that he would like to be afforded the first opportunity to lead the evidence because in actual fact he was supposed to be in court tomorrow and due to the short notice that we had to ask him to come here the court did not allow him not to come at all in court and apparently he has been told several times that they won't allow the postponement because he has tried to postpone this matter on the basis that he had to appear in front of the Truth Commission so I had assured him that we will start with his matter at 9 o'clock so I'm facing that difficulty now.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you contemplate Mr Mbanjwa and Ndaba's application to last Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: I don't see it lasting more than an hour Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That being so, Ms Moodley, would you have any objection if we started with Mr Mdlala at half ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: That would be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say immediately after concluding that application we'll then proceed with your application.  The application of Mr Mdlala will then stand down until tomorrow at half past 10 or at any later time when Mr Mbanjwa's application would have been concluded and disposed of.

MS MOODLEY: So I will be excused for the morning until then?

CHAIRPERSON: You will be excused until 10.30 tomorrow morning.  Will you please make sure that your witness is able to be here timeously?  Thank you.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS