Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is true.

MR BRINK: Did anyone at headquarters ever ask you how it was that Mr Benzien was so successful in extracting information from suspected terrorists?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR BRINK: You were told that unrest had to be brought to an end, were you given any instruction as to how that was to happen?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: From time to time instructions were given among others, during the emergency situation there were emergency regulations and orders that as many as possible of the people had to be apprehended so that they cannot organise the unrest.

MR BRINK: Yes, and to get information, not just to keep them out of political activity but to get information?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is true.

MR BRINK: And were you given a free hand by headquarters to use whatever means you wished to affect that purpose?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I understood it to be so and that's how I conveyed it to those under me.

MR BRINK: You were given authority as you understood it, to take part if necessary in torture and/or killing?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I would have turned away if I'd heard that, I would not have become involved but it could have been interpreted as such.

MR BRINK: Because we've heard from witnesses at other forums
in this Commission, those are operatives who've indicated that they understood that they could use any means and I'm just wondering why your situation is different.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I will agree with that.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sorry, just one other thing as a matter of interest, who would have recommended the award of the medal for combating terrorism to Mr Benzien?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: His direct commanding officer.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

JUDGE WILSON: You say in your statement that you asked Advocate Cook to request the police to make the relevant Section 29 dockets available?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is indeed so Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Was this of all Section 29 detainees in the district, not just one or two people?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It was reference to the victims who are involved at the moment.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were told that none of the dockets were available?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: None whatsoever Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Who told you this or do you know who said
this?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I think this was said by Advocate Booth of the SAP service, if I'm correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Griebenauw, can you tell us exactly what the basis is of your saying that your juniors or any other members of the security branch for that matter, could have come to the impression that they had been authorised to torture people?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: If I can take it - summarise, it briefly means that as a result of the participation of commanding officers to the lowest level in the National Information Management System which has at it's side the National Security Council and that instructions were given to them by two lines of communication, the commanding line in the police and the other which has a say in the National Security Management, it would have been acceptable to them that if an instruction was given that no matter what we have to have the answers, that is comes from the top in the first place.
	Secondly, if complaints were made that they were investigated and that no steps were taken against them and that in the case of Captain Benzien a medal was awarded to him, then this should have been condoned.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With regard to the question of the medal, wouldn't you think that to authorities a person who has not used any torture at all but skilfully managed to get useful information, would be an appropriate candidate for a medal?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I doubt that because as far as I know and I'm speaking under correction, I might be wrong but I think that these medals were only awarded to people who did border duty -  I'm under that impression.  And that it will only on exception be awarded to somebody who did not do border duty and I'm also under the impression that Captain Benzien did not do border duty.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What I'm saying to you is that they might not have known that he had used that torture to obtain information otherwise they might not have given him the medal, had they known - they may argue so.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: My commentary on that is that I think that there was a responsibility on the organisation who awarded the medal - after all the publication that was given to complaints against Captain Benzien, to determine what the position was before the award was made.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: General, during questioning by Mr Donan, you conceded that a Mr Mostert was used predominantly to interrogate women.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, that is not so.  I conceded that I know him and that he served under me but at that point I did not conceded, I'm not aware of that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It is an error then on my note because I thought that is what you conceded to, sorry.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, that is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions in re-examination Mr Cook?

MR COOK: No cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any other witnesses?

MR COOK: That concludes the applicant's evidence.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Perhaps I should clearly put to the Committee what my client's attitude is to the psychologist's report which was presented by my learned friend.  They have obvious difficulties with it.  The Committee has had the opportunity of reading it and we require the expert witness to attend in order to put our difficulties to that witness.
	We're instructed on expert advice that the post-traumatic stress disorder which is the alleged cause of the amnesia, is a condition which befalls people who are tortured or victims rather than perpetrators.  We also have difficulties with the whole notion of post-traumatic stress disorder because the Committee will have 
heard that the trauma occurred many years ago and it did not manifest itself during trials at which Mr Benzien testified - where he testified with complete knowledge, it seems to have arisen in 1994 when these particular proceedings were contemplated.  
	And our concern is that the cause of the amnesia is this particular hearing rather than any condition which Mr Benzien has and we should therefore like that aspect to be clarified.  I'm putting my questions on the table so that my learned friend can consider his position but those are our difficulties and therefore we must insist as I said.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Donan, do I understand you correctly as saying you're contesting the fact that there's a memory lapse, do you not - whatever the cause may be, it's your contention that he very well knows what it's all about and that he's not telling the truth or do you say: "Well, he may have a memory lapse but it's only because of other reasons?

MR DONAN: We're contesting the nature and extent of his amnesia, we understand Mr Benzien is human and humans do forget but we're saying that the amnesia is not as far reaching as has been put up, it doesn't have the cause that has been put up.  And that the requirements of the legislation of full disclosure are not being met deliberately rather than because of an inability to make full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cook, is there anything that you wish to say in that regard?