Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR JANSEN: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

WILSON J: You have told us the askaris were not officially members of the South African Police Force.

WITNESS:   At first.

WILSON J: They were paid, however, for their services?

WITNESS:  Informant fee, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Informer's fees, depending on the amount of information they supplied.

WITNESS:   No, Mr Chairman.  I think they were registered as HQ informers, and at the time, if I haven't got it wrong, when I arrived on Vlakplaas they received an amount of R200,00 per month fixed, with food supplied and free board and lodging.

WILSON J: And their safety obviously depended to a large extent on their not being known as informants.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And is it correct that they also were obliged to continue as informants to supply information and to remain loyal to the police?

WITNESS:   Well, yes, they were, but the supplying of information was then, whilst at Vlakplaas, based there, mainly being like set out in - picked up by regions that had information about guys, ANC cadres in the country, and to come and pick up these informants, take them out, and hopefully for them to identify the insurgents.

WILSON J: And we have had evidence that when they lost faith in the askaris the askaris were eliminated.

WITNESS:   Some of them, yes, Mr Chairman, and I can specifically mention names.  That's true.

WILSON J: So it was very important for them to remain on good terms with the police they were working with.

WITNESS:   That is correct.  That is correct.

WILSON J: The second matter, which I think in fairness to the

WILSON J: /askaris

WILSON J: askaris should perhaps be put on record, is - if you look at the letter written by Mr Pillay - have you got the letter as well?  Page 2.  He starts off,

WILSON J: "I was abducted by five men on February 19th after putting up a tremendous struggle, for which I was badly beaten."

WILSON J: ---   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And he goes on in the third paragraph, where he starts,

WILSON J: "My struggle at the scene of the abduction paid big dividends,"

WILSON J: and after saying that,

WILSON J: "Jeffrey Busigu lost his South African passport,"

WILSON J: goes on to say,

WILSON J: "The morning after my abduction a very close teaching colleague just happened to make his way to Manzini, the nearest town.  There he spotted one of my abductors and he reported the matter to the police, who later arrested four of my abductors.  One of them, whose face I repeatedly booted while I was being dragged into the escape vehicle, pleaded with the police to get medical attention for his swollen face."

WILSON J: ---   I can't - this losing of a passport I can now remember.  One of the askaris did lose a passport.  I can't - I didn't see the askaris thereafter that, only when they were released on bail.

WILSON J: On Mr Pillay's version it seems that there was a

WILSON J: /fight.

WILSON J: fight.

WITNESS:   There was a fight.

WILSON J: And he was not the only one who suffered.

WITNESS:   I accept that.  I accept it, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, for the time being you're excused.

WITNESS:  Mr Chairman, can I maybe just make reference to page 7 on 43 - paragraph 43, page 7, where he says,

CHAIRPERSON: "On or about February 26th I was advised ..."

CHAIRPERSON: and then he went to Lothair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WITNESS:   It must have been on that Monday, the 23rd, I am fairly sure of that.  At the latest, if not on that Sunday already.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say it will be about February 23rd.

WITNESS:   23rd, ja, or even Sunday 22.  I am sure if we - usually the small police stations don't destroy their records and one would be able to get documents as far back as '81 very easily.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WITNESS:   But he was kept there for about a week as far as my knowledge is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Yes, thank you.

WITNESS:   Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, that would then be the only evidence in respect of the Pillay matter on behalf of the first applicant, Mr Coetzee.
/MR MARAIS

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I then call David Tshikalanga, the applicant also in the same incident.  Mr Chairman, firstly I was instructed this morning by this applicant that he yesterday experienced certain problems in understanding some of the questions put to him through the
interpreter.  He also indicated that sometimes it seemed to him as if ... (inaudible) ... to the answer that he gave.  I discussed it this morning with the interpreters.  They agreed that there was a problem yesterday with the interpretation, and a new interpreter is being used to translate from the English into the Venda, so hopefully things will go better today.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry you've had this difficulty with the interpretation yesterday.  I hope things go better today.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, it was also mentioned to me that Venda is one of the more difficult languages, and that the interpreters interpreting the Venda do not get as much practice at it as the Zulu and Xhosa interpreters, and that they are not as experienced in this specific field of interpreting that we are dealing with.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, you're aware of this fact, are you?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, I am aware of the fact that there were problems yesterday, and as a result thereof the person responsible for the interpreters, Mr Theo du Plessis, flew down to Durban last night to come and sort out this problem.  He was with us even this morning, and he gave me an undertaking that this has been solved.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we a new interpreter?

MR MSHE: We have somebody he has arranged to come and take over for Venda.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that somebody here now?
/MR MSHE

MR MSHE: They are already in the booth, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So can we proceed?

MR MSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do carry on.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: DAVID TSHIKALANGA

MR MARAIS: Mr Tshikalanga, the Committee is dealing with the abduction of a certain Mr Joe Pillay in 1981.  Do you remember Mr Pillay?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do know about Pillay, but I don't know about the time when he was abducted from Swaziland.  I just saw him when he was at Klapperkop, that name just like that at the military base.

MR MARAIS: Were you instructed by Dirk Coetzee to guard Mr Pillay when they were not present at the place where he was being kept?

WITNESS:   Yes, indeed I was instructed.

MR MARAIS: Was Mr Pillay ever assaulted in your presence?

WITNESS:  No, he wasn't beaten during the time that I was with him.  I didn't see him being assaulted.

MR MARAIS: You then accompanied Mr Pillay to house of Koos Schutte, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, we left together and we stayed there together.

MR MARAIS: Was he assaulted during your stay there?

WITNESS:   No, he was not beaten in my presence.

MR MARAIS: Could you see signs of assaults on Mr Pillay?

WITNESS:  Yes, he had signs of showing that he had been assaulted around his eyes, and below his eyes he was blue, showing that he had been assaulted.  And he was also very weak.  You could see that he'd really been assaulted before.

MR MARAIS: Can you remember how long he was kept at the

MR MARAIS: /military

MR MARAIS: military base at Klapperkop?

WITNESS:   According to how I saw him I went there during the day, meaning after lunch, and then after that we slept there.  The following day, if I remember well, we left and went to Schutte's house.

MR MARAIS: But how long did you stay at Schutte's house?

WITNESS:  I can't fully remember well, I don't have all the evidence.  I think we slept there only for a night, and the following day we left.  It could be about two days and then we left the following morning.

MR MARAIS: Where did you go from there?