Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Mr Chairman, Chris Hani never said: "Go and blast Wimpy".  I would want, if I may, to recall what Chris Hani said, and in fact it was captured in the press.  After the people in South Africa in the townships were saying: "Through these struggles only innocent African people are dying, therefore there is a need to step up the armed struggle and extend it to the white areas", he said and I quote
"Even those who are going to make the world sit up and take note and for those who benefit from apartheid will feel the brunt"
So therefore when we were targeting Benoni Police Station we realised in our minds that Benoni was also in town and in line with that call we said we were going to take that struggle to the white areas.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see, maybe just for your comment, it's also the view of the victims, specifically the Wimpy bomb attack, that is attack was planned basically against white civilians who frequented this place, not against any military target whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you are able to you must put to the witness as to why that proposition or why those people feel that way.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the view of the victims who visited this place and were injured is that according to them this place was mainly visited and frequented by white civilians and not ordinary military personnel as stated by the applicant, Mr Chairman.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Mr Chairman, I think what I said, of course I hear what the advocate is saying, like I said all operations carried out, like I said that in all operations where activities, armed activities were carried out, where security personnel were affected but you would find that the reports that come forth every time would say: "No military personnel were in fact affected".
	We also said in the application that the question, we never said they state there, but in terms of our reconnaissance and the information gathered, that they frequented the place.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did your information also indicate that a large majority of the people visiting this place were actually children?  If you look at the list of the victims you will see, and if necessary we will put evidence to the Committee, that there was a lot of information that people visiting this specific Wimpy Bar were actually children coming from school or wherever and visiting this place.  Have you any information on that or can you deny that?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well I wouldn't deny or accept that.  The questions that the report as it came, is that military or security personnel, not military, but security personnel were in fact frequenting the place.  That is the information came, that came forth.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe explain to the Committee, what was the ANC or the MK's policy regarding the identification of targets?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Commissioner, I would refer to my application when I, or the submission as we, as I read it, that the overall brief we must also understand that the front command, at that time the ANC was a banned organisation and as a result in terms of communication it was very difficult to frequent in and out of the country, but the brief in our origin was that we train, arm the people and so on, in terms of the brief.
	So identification of the brief has to be within these parameters as I indicated.  Parameters to say, you train the people, you attack the security personnel wherever they are to sever the lines of communication and so forth.  
	So I was saying the identification of a target is influenced or informed by the guide or the brief or the broad mandate as it were.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you take any steps to minimise the injuring or the killing of the civilians, did you take any steps whatsoever?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well in terms of steps I'm not sure what that means, but of course the question of affecting innocent civilians, in fact it was a touchy one.
	We have in fact consistently throughout, in terms of the illustrations of our operations, we have consistently refused to be drawn into a racial line also where innocent civilians will be affected.  
	However there are certain circumstances where you can't avoid the affecting of innocent civilians, but that has in fact been our mandate and our brief.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can I ask you, why was this attack planned on a Saturday afternoon at 12 o'clock, why wasn't it planned during the day when Security Police were actually in the building or probably in the building or next door?  Operational, why on a Saturday at 12 o'clock?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Like I said before, the question of actions, in all our actions we did not wake in the morning and decide on an attack.  Based on any information at the disposal of one we would prepare plannings based on the information and we would act accordingly.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't know what is an appropriate time, if you can indicate?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	So you called, if I'm not mistaken, you called the Wimpy a military attack, am I right?  Is that what you said in your evidence in chief?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Wimpy as Wimpy is not or was not the military attack, not a military target but the people who went to Wimpy were in fact unfortunately the target, they happened to be in Wimpy.
	If for instance one would make an example, was it Nandos, although Nandos is a current thing or is a recent thing, if there were a Nandos and our information told us or informed that they were in Nandos we would have hit them in Nandos or we would have hit them in whatever restaurant.  So it so happened to be Wimpy but Wimpy as Wimpy was not a target.

ADV STEENKAMP: What information did you actually have on the Wimpy Bars?  Can you elaborate, exactly what did your reconnaissance say?  What information did you have on person frequenting that place?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: We would all remember, at that time, during that time, the state of emergency and so on, that many of the political activists were in fact arrested, tortured in Benoni Police Station and some of the information that we got from those was that the security personnel themselves, Special Branch in particular, in terms of their movements and the place where they dine happened to be Wimpy.
	So that is the kind of information, but of course in military situations or in armed situations what you do is that you would have to verify and that is why based on that, the question of following that information for verification purposes was in fact conducted and hence the reconnaissance conducted and so on.  That led to Wimpy.

ADV STEENKAMP: Of the group of the four applicants, who of you exactly did the reconnaissance?  Were you involved yourself, personally?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I think I clarified that in my submission.  I was involved in the planning, the identification, the planning and so on but the execution was my fellow applicant, Alfas Ndlovu.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm sorry.
	I thought I understood Advocate Steenkamp's question to have been: "Were you personally involved in the reconnaissance"?  Not in the actual execution.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I was not involved in the actual execution but in the planning, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In the reconnaissance, in reconnoitring Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: We delegated the responsibility.  I said it also, that my fellow applicant Alfas Ndlovu was in fact the person that we delegated.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you were not involved in the reconnaissance?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, I was not involved in the reconnaissance.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do I understand you correctly, Mr Ndlovu actually updated you exactly what was happening in the Wimpy Bar, he was the guy with the information at hand, first-hand information?