Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR DORFLING: This Committee has heard evidence that the protest-marchers shot in the direction of either Shell House or where the guards were standing; that the marchers stormed forward in the direction of the ANC guards and that the ANC guards were under the impression that an attack was being launched on them.  What is your reaction to that?

J M S POTGIETER: I heard no shots from that side, they didn't run, they were toyi-toying, it was sort of a jogging motion at a metre distance tempo, they didn't dash.

MR DORFLING: On the day of the incident, 28th of March 1994, how many years of service had you behind you in the South African Police?

J M S POTGIETER: Almost two years.

MR DORFLING: Were you at any stage before that day involved in marches, specifically where Zulus were involved?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct, part of my functions were to assist in marches.

MR DORFLING: The image that you had in the direction of De Villiers Street, the group which you saw moving forward, was their behaviour in any way different to the experience that you had had of such marches before that day?

J M S POTGIETER: No, they were basically just toyi-toying.

MR DORFLING: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Just one question please, Chairperson.  Sergeant, earlier that morning, you were in the vicinity of Lancet Hall, is that correct?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct, yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you attempt to enter Lancet Hall?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: From where did you attempt to enter Lancet Hall?

J M S POTGIETER: The motor-gate in Von Weilligh Street.

MR PRETORIUS: When you went there was the gate in order?

J M S POTGIETER: It was in order, I broke it.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you break it yourself?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Why?

J M S POTGIETER: In order to gain entry because the front gates were locked.

MR PRETORIUS: No further questions.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Is it Sergeant Potgieter?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Can we first of all deal with the shooting a few minutes before the main shooting in Plein Street, do you recall that?

J M S POTGIETER: Ja we heard the shots, ja.

MR BERGER: You can speak in Afrikaans if you like.

J M S POTGIETER: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Those shots, those first shots that you heard, they came from the direction of Wanderers Street, corner of Wanderers and Plein, correct?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that a number of Policemen then went to investigate what was going on down in Wanderers Street - you started off going in that direction?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct Sergeant, that the reason you went in that direction was because one of the ANC guards came to your group of Policemen and said "they're shooting at us, please go and investigate"?

J M S POTGIETER: No, we heard shots and we went to investigate.

MR BERGER: You were with - at that time you were with Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen, is that correct?

J M S POTGIETER: And Gollach.  I don't know about Van Greenen, but Gollach definitely.

MR BERGER: Gollach was there, and Van Reenen was there?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You went in that direction to investigate and then there was a shot behind you?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that behind you at the time, there were ANC guards and there were also members of the SADF?

J M S POTGIETER: I know about the ANC guards, but not about the National Defence Force.

MR BERGER: You say that that shot that you heard behind you came from the ANC, but is it correct that you don't really know who fired that shot?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct, we saw a man with a shotgun on the parapet, that's all.

MR BERGER: You only saw one ANC guard on the parapet with a shotgun?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: That shot that you heard which you attributed to the ANC, was that the only shot that you heard which you would have attributed to the ANC before the main shooting?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: There were no other shots in and around the vicinity of Shell House prior to the main shooting other than this particular shot we're talking about?

J M S POTGIETER: No, not that I know of, it's only those shots that we heard that made us run in that direction.

MR BERGER: Prior to that shot, or the shots which you heard coming from the direction of Wanderers Street?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: If one has a look at your affidavit, paragraph 13 - page 13 sorry, paragraph 3, this is where you deal with the shooting from the direction of Wanderers Street, and that's where you say that you Sergeant Gollach and Sergeant van Reenen ran in that direction, you say there
"While we were busy running in that direction people came out or appeared on the balcony of Shell House with shotguns, which they shot over our heads at a group of Zulus who were in Wanderers Street."

J M S POTGIETER: In my affidavit I say that there were people on the balcony, but not that people appeared on the balcony, meaning that they were already there.  I didn't say that they had appeared on the balcony.

MR BERGER: They shot with shotguns from the balcony ...(intervention)

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Towards the people - marchers in Wanderers Street?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I don't want to nitpick with you, but your evidence was that there was one person, and this was the same point that was raised at the inquest, one point with the shotgun, and you can't explain why in your affidavit you speak about a number of people with shotguns, am I right?

J M S POTGIETER: No, that's correct.

MR BERGER: What is not disputed is that there was a group of marchers in Wanderers Street and you and Sergeant van Reenen - or Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant Gollach were of a view that there were shots had come from their direction, and that's why you went in the direction to investigate.

J M S POTGIETER: The shots came from that direction, but we don't know exactly if they came from the Zulus.

MR BERGER: But you saw them there?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: And would you confirm your evidence at page 3101 of the record that there two or three shots ahead of you, that's from the direction of the marchers in Wanderers Street, one shot from behind?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When you were coming back, is it correct that you didn't go further down Wanderers Street because you - I beg you pardon, Plein Street towards Wanderers Street, because that group had now disappeared?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were now coming back towards Shell House?

J M S POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: And I take it you can't dispute that Sergeant - or was it Constable Scheepers was also with you at that time?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, I didn't see him personally, I know that he had been posted there at Shell House.

MR BERGER: He stated in his statement and he also stated in evidence, that as he was crossing King George Street in Plein Street moving in an easterly direction, he saw a marcher with an AK47 approaching down King George Street between De Villiers and Plein.

J M S POTGIETER: No, at that stage they weren't that close.

MR BERGER: Did you ever see a marcher with an AK47?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And no stage?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And you never saw a marcher firing an AK47 either?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And you were standing on that corner for the entire duration of the shooting?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.