Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR NGUBANE: When you approached them, had you already formed an intention of eliminating them, or you just wanted to prevent this bomb blast?

MR BOTHA: The prevention thereof and all the other activities that they would commit after that.

MR NGUBANE: When you approached them, that is my question, had you already taken an intention to eliminate them?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did you take that decision to eliminate them?

MR BOTHA: Their activities was identified by Pumeso to us.

MR NGUBANE: No, no, please don't tell me the whole history, just answer my question directly.  When and with whom did you decide that they were going to be eliminated?

MR BOTHA: Before their arrest it was already decided that Du Preez and I think it was Wasserman, already decided and Taylor, decided that they would be eliminated.
	That is why they were coaxed to this place by the informer, where we picked them up.

MR NGUBANE: So, you went there with the sole aim that if ever they are found, they are going to be eliminated?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: You didn't want to have them arrested and prosecuted in the normal fashion?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And you didn't consider the options that were open to you, the ordinary legal process?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: What was the reason of your doing that, just to eliminate them?  You had these people, you caught them, you anticipated that you would catch them with exhibits and you could send them to court and have them prosecuted?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I think I gave an explanation as to why I decided that they had to be eliminated.

MR NGUBANE: Now, at that stage, was it your policy or was it your decision that any MK man who was found doing the acts of terror, would be eliminated instead of prosecuting him?

MR VISSER: There is no basis for that question Mr Chairman, there is no evidence at all, not a shred of evidence to suggest that this witness did so with every MK cadre  that he caught.

CHAIRPERSON: He is being asked if he did.  Did you do this?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: My worry is why pick on these people and decide not to follow the legal process and then decide to eliminate them?

MR BOTHA: Because they were the priority group at that stage for these acts of terror.

MR NGUBANE: So was it your decision then that any priority group at any given stage, would be eliminated instead of bringing them to the ordinary courts of law and prosecuting them?

MR BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Now, I fail to find your reason because if then they were the priority group, why other priority groups are exempt from this elimination?  That is my worry?

MR BOTHA: Mr Ngubane, your second question is in general, and your first one is more specific.
	The acts of terror that occurred at that time in Durban, they were the group responsible for those acts of terror.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I then reserve my cross-examination pending the ruling on the informers.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till 9 o'clock on Monday morning.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, just one aspect perhaps.  Could I be excused from further attendance?  We have basically come to the end as far as the Bhila incident whatever my participation could be.  My attorney will remain in so far as there might be anything in respect of Mr Mhieza or Mgadi our other client, and of course he will be here in respect of the Taylor, Mr Taylor, late Mr Taylor's wife.  We can hardly justify two of us sitting here for nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS