Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson the other people involved in this case knew nothing about Johannesburg, they wouldn't have even been able to distinguish Johannesburg from any suburb.  I'm not saying I was the one who really knew the place very well, I did not know it very well, but I knew the set up and approximately in a broad manner I knew where most of the areas were in Johannesburg.

ADV GCABASHE: And did you explain this to Barnard and the others when they asked you about your knowledge of Johannesburg, because after all you are the person they were relying on to chose the targets as I understand your evidence?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson we did speak about the place itself and where it would be but Barnard received the instruction that it has to be placed in Johannesburg and I said that I think the best place would be in Bree Street, because of the buildings, we were more concerned with the buildings at that spot.

ADV GCABASHE: Just finally again.  This is precisely why it's odd that you didn't choose the post office which is just a block away, up the road.  It's a government building, the NP government is your essential target.  You choose a place that has shops downstairs but flats all the way up.  I'm still a bit - I'm not sure why you did that as the expert who was choosing the targets, just help me with that?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't even know about the post office Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you never see that post office before?

MR LE ROUX: I know there are post offices there and I also know there's a police barracks.  I knew they were there Chairperson.  I cannot imagine that we drove past it though Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No the point is, why wasn't it chosen?

MR LE ROUX: The way me and Barnard discussed it Chairperson he said that it was correct what we spoke about, I explained to him how the area looked.

MR BRACHER: You see Mr Le Roux you said yesterday you didn't know where the polling stations were.  That was easily found out wasn't it, everybody else in South Africa knew where to go and vote apparently except you?

MR LE ROUX: We could have found out where they were, yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: I mean three blocks away is the Town Hall which was a polling station?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: The other thing - the theme that I want to develop this morning by the way is that this is your own private murder with you and your group of people.  The other thing that you did when you chose civilians, you chose people that in your twisted mind you thought were lesser people, you chose escort agencies because you thought that they were somehow lower, you chose blacks because you don't have any concern for them, isn't that right?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You said you chose a sort of lower class neighbourhood.  Is that right?  You thought they deserved it more than someone else?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, the area Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: But you chose it because it was a lower class neighbourhood.  Why is that?  In you opinion I'm talking about.

MR LE ROUX: That's how I imagined it to be and that's what I said to Barnard.

MR BRACHER: Don't tell me what you told someone else, tell me why you chose it for that reason?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson the bomb had to placed in Johannesburg, that was the instruction I received.  Now we discussed the area and that's where we placed the bomb Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if that was the circumstances, why did you not choose to place the bomb at the post office which was very close from where it was actually placed?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard was not interested in that sort of target Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Or the Magistrate's Court?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson if I had to choose the targets myself I probably would have chosen something completely different but it was my instruction to place a bomb in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the Magistrate's Court which is closer to Bree Street, that's also in Johannesburg or the post office which was referred to is also in Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The point of the question is for some or other reason you intended or you were regarded as the expert with regards to Johannesburg and the placing of the bomb was in your hands, according to your evidence.  You had a choice, you could decide between the Magistrate's Court a post office and the place you actually placed the bomb.  The question is why the place where you did place the bomb, why did you place it there and not use a government building?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard told me that he's looking for a place where there were dense buildings, in other words next to the road there should be a lot of buildings and that's why we chose that spot Chairperson.  We discussed it, we discussed the area and I explained to him how the buildings looked approximately.  I didn't tell him that there was a post office, at that stage I wasn't even aware of that.  I was aware of the buildings, the one's that you've just mentioned, the Magistrate's Court but he did not choose that to be the target.

MR BRACHER: The other reason I say it was a private deed was that - or let me just ask you this, am I correct in saying that the Sunday bomb was decided on the Saturday, the Monday bomb was decided on the Sunday and the Tuesday bomb was decided on the Monday?

MR LE ROUX: No that is not correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: When did you decide those bombings?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know when it was decided, I received the instruction on the Saturday evening the 23rd.

CHAIRPERSON: For all three bombs?

MR LE ROUX: No not for all three as this thing made it's course, Barnard would say the next one there, next one there.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you informed about each bomb?

MR LE ROUX: When I got back from the Johannesburg bomb I was informed that we will get the trailer and that we are going to make the Germiston bomb.  At that stage I think he told me that there should also be a bomb exploded at the airport.  It was around that time.

MR BRACHER: Well the details were decided weren't they.  Until Saturday you didn't know where you were going to put that bomb?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't know but Barnard knew.

MR BRACHER: Barnard didn't know Johannesburg, it couldn't have been decided until he asked you?

MR LE ROUX: No, he had to plant a bomb in Johannesburg that was his instruction.

MR BRACHER: Well you don't know if it was his instruction, do you?

MR LE ROUX: He told me that it was his instruction.

MR BRACHER: Have you seen what he put in this morning, this fax?  Can I read you what he says?  He says
"Today the 17th of June 1998 there will be a written document submitted at your office where I take responsibility for everything that happened with regards to what happened at the pre-election time and with regards to the bomb explosions and that I gave the instructions.
So he's no longer blaming anybody else, he says it's him personally.  Do you know that?

MR LE ROUX: I hear what you are saying Chairperson.  If I can comment on that, it's easy he still has another 80 years in prison, why would he want to involve anybody else, in other words the people who gave him the instructions.  That's my point of view.

CHAIRPERSON: But he excludes you in his decision about where the bombs would be planted?

MR LE ROUX: He took the chief decisions Chairperson.  A bomb had to be planted in Johannesburg, Germiston, at the airport.  I only explained to him how the area looked.

MR BRACHER: The other thing that happened after the first bomb, Barnard went to the head office you said to get petrol money.  Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now you could have gone with him and found out what your instructions were for the next bomb, couldn't you?

MR LE ROUX: I could have, but I didn't think it necessary.