Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did they get to the doors - the double doors, did they get there before you entered?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, they were standing outside, they did not go inside.  They were shooting practically from outside.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were those doors open or were they closed?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I can't say because I wasn't shooting from that position.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you were given an instruction by the commander of your unit to fire the rifle grenade as a withdrawal signal, it would appear that you didn't follow that instruction to the letter, do you agree?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all comrades, I was given an order to launch the rifle grenade and I did that but when I realised that there was someone with certain movements from the side of the other comrades, passing towards the door that I was at, this is when I realised - I've been taught one thing at APLA that we've got to be flexible and take initiative to protect other comrades and make sure that the operation is successful.  That's how I'd answer your question.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now a question may well be asked of you and I might as well ask you, if you have some flexibility and you have some initiative - is that what you said?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Repeat the question please.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When you are involved in an operation you have some flexibility and initiative, is that what you said?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now my question is - when you entered the tavern, did it not occur to you or did it not appear to you that the people inside the tavern - at least on their appearance in terms of their dress, that they were not members of the security forces? Did that not occur to you then?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all I obey orders, I do not defy orders or I'm not out to defy orders.  I was given an order as an African comrade, as a soldier and I could not defy this order - you do not do that in APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: That's hardly the question that has been put to you, I think the question that was put you was: "When you entered the door, could you see the people there were not security people or policemen and so on"?  That's the question that was put to you.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, that did not occur in my mind.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you expect them to be security people of policemen?  Did you expect the people in the tavern to be policemen or security people?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Please elaborate.

JUDGE WILSON: Had you got any reason to think that inside the tavern there were security officers or policemen?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, as a soldier I was given an order to go there on a specific day, the order did not specify that there'd be a certain type of people there.

JUDGE WILSON: Don't keep on avoiding the question, answer it - which is simple, you've just done so.  You weren't told there were specific people there, were you?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Maybe Mr Madasi, can you tell us - what were you told, who was going to be there, why did you ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the attorney wait for us to interpret the witnesses answer please.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was just told ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: I did not get a chance to interpret the attorney's question and the witness is answering that question now.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it please.  I'm sorry, the interpreter cannot catch up with us, you're too fast.  Please give her a chance to interpret and then you can answer, all right?  Thank you.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat that question.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you tell us, what were you told to expect at the Heidelberg Tavern?  Why did you have to attack the Heidelberg Tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, we were not given a reason.

NORMAN ARENDSE: We know from Gqomfa's evidence yesterday that the reason for attacking the Heidelberg Tavern was that it was a place frequented by members of the security forces, do you remember that evidence of yesterday?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I remember that evidence.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you not told that that was the reason why you were to attack the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, as soldiers we were not told, it was his own information that I could not defy because he was also obeying orders from people above him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You said that you saw a movement inside the tavern.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And did you react to that movement you saw in the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, that is why I decided to go inside because initially I was standing by the door.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, just for the record, from page 48 onwards the presiding Judge in his Judgement also then summarises the evidence of one Justin Fouche, from line 18 onwards and it is his evidence that he would have got up to run through the back door.  The Judge says at 22, 23 and 24
"He was the only witness of the incident in the tavern" ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What page?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Page 48, line 22.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Thank you, I have found it.
ADV ARENDSE
"He was the only witness of the incident in the tavern who could see anything really important of the attackers"
Do you recall this witness giving that evidence in court?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I remember such evidence.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Would it be correct to assume that he would have been the person that you saw getting up and running through the back door?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he hasn't told us anything about the movement, he just says he saw a movement.  He's got to tell us what movement he saw in the first place.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Therefore what question am I answering here?

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that you entered the door because you saw a movement, now tell us what movement did you see.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As a person who was standing by the door - the comrades shooting from the double doors that I was referring to, I saw someone coming from the side where the comrades were shooting at, towards the other end - the left of the tavern.  This is the kind of movement I'm talking about.  I took initiative and decided to enter, I entered and shot because I saw this man running towards the left of the tavern - we were shooting from the right of the tavern.

JUDGE WILSON: There's no mention of him going to the back door, is there Mr Arendse?  Where do you get that from?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I read it somewhere in the record, I'm trying to find it Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: What he says is that he ran to the front door.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, I see that on page 50, you're correct.  Maybe the witness - he was there, maybe he can tell us what he saw.

JUDGE WILSON: He saw someone running across to the left of the tavern, he's just told us.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Excuse me a moment, as a person who was there at the tavern that night and the person who committed this - I was there, this is from my heart.  I can see all sorts of documents in front of me but I am the person that was there and the man next to me.  What I'm saying is true, I'm not saying we should not focus on these documents but I think what is important is for our evidence to be looked at carefully and considered because we were there, I saw what I saw and I did what I did, I'm certain of that.

JUDGE WILSON: Well tell us how far you went into the tavern, did you go through that door to the right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I entered but I did not go in too far - inside too far.  I was shooting, I could see people vaguely but I was already shooting until I lost all the bullets I changed over the magazine.  At the passage, it is where I launched and then I left but I could see the people when I was inside.