Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant is Mr Theron.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: (sworn states)

MR MALAN: Thank you, you may be seated.  Your full names, is it Flip Koenraad?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Theron, your amnesty application appears in Volume 1, on page 94 to 96 and the application which you bring before this Committee is from page 97 to 101, Annexure A and then the political background and motivation, is Annexure B, on pages 102 to page 109, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: We have also heard the evidence of Mr De Kock, Mr Pienaar with regard to the two incidents for which you apply for amnesty?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I have heard, yes Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you confirm their evidence where it is concerned to you?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was evidence that the information which was obtained with regard to these two shooting incidents, this information came from a source which you handled, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And before we continue any further, you approached me after an application was brought in that the source's name be made known and what was your instruction to me?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I requested you not to make the name known.  My feeling was that I did not want to endanger the person's life and that is the only reason.

MS VAN DER WALT: And are you convinced that that would be so that the person's life would be endangered?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, that is my feeling Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: This source who gave you this information, did you have, have you dealt with this source a long time before these two incidents?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I have Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: For how long?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I speak under correction, but I would say it would be approximately a year, it may have been less, but approximately one year.

MS VAN DER WALT: Before this incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the information which you received through this source, did you confirm it?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, I received several pieces of information from this source with regard to the activities of ANC members and I obtained this information and processed it and I sent it through, through the usual channels to the Regional Head Office and then to Head Office.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you apply for amnesty for the first event, the event where the Toyota Corolla was involved?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in that incident, did you also fire shots?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And four persons were killed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any weapons which were found on these persons or not?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, later I realised that weapons were planted, during the incident there were no weapons.

MS VAN DER WALT: And with regard to the second event, did you also receive information from your source that once again, after the first incident, persons would infiltrate the country?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the information that you had?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That armed members of the ANC, trained members and who would be armed, would come into the country Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know that it would take place on this specific day, the 12th of June?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you convey this information to Mr Pienaar?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were also involved in this incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson, I was there.

MS VAN DER WALT: What were your duties there?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: My duty during the second incident was to handle the light during the incident, that I supply the lighting Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you have to switch on the light?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: After the vehicle had come to a stop and to switch on the light as quickly as possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also did not fire shots during the second incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No, I did not shoot Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You knew that in both instances, the people would be lured into an ambush?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That was my deduction Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why do you say that that was a deduction?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: During the planning it became clear that it would be an ambush and not a roadblock.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have also made statements for the post mortem inquest?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also gave evidence there?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes.  For the first incident I testified, and for the second one, I did not Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: I refer the Honourable Committee to Volume 3(a), that is a statement which you  made, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Which page Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Page 1 and 2, excuse me Chairperson.  It was to Brigadier Van Wyk, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 1, paragraph 4, you mention - that is the fourth line Chairperson - you would arrest the persons, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is not correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Because you knew they would be shot?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I knew they would be shot.

MS VAN DER WALT: In the last paragraph you mention that there was a blue flashlight that was switched on, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That was not correct Chairperson, there was no other vehicle and no light there at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 2 you mentioned that Colonel De Kock had shouted that it was the police, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No, that is not correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in the fourth paragraph from the top Chairperson, you said that you were aware that a Makarov pistol as well as handgrenades were found in the possession of the deceased, that is also not correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson, that is not correct, there were no weapons.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you testify as such during the death inquest?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then in Volume 5 Chairperson,  on page 110 and 111 and 112 you also made a statement?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you recall whom you made the statement to?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I cannot see who did this, but I imagine that it was Brigadier Van Wyk.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was Daantjie van Dyk, it looks like a D?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this was in regard to the second incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in the second paragraph Chairperson, at page 110 you mention that you received certain instructions from Major Deetlefs and Warrant Officer Pienaar, you didn't mention Mr De Kock there?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Colonel De Kock was there Chairperson, we  received the instructions from Colonel De Kock amongst others.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the same page, page 110, paragraph 5...

MR MALAN: Excuse me, what Bundle are we dealing with?

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 47.  It is the big number that we are looking at.

MS VAN DER WALT: It is Bundle 5, Mr Malan.

CHAIRPERSON: Volume 5, page 47.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am sorry, it is on page 47.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could go back, Ms Van der Walt, because I was looking at page 110 and it was obviously the wrong statement.