Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

CHAIRPERSON: In the affidavit that you made on the 18th November 1992 you said "At no point did I see a pistol or a weapon in the hands of the black men."

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: I saw them with guns, maybe I was scared when I gave this statement.

MR PRIOR: Yes that's clear from his statement, Mr Chairman, I think it doesn't take the matter any further, the applicant's confirm they were all armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR PRIOR: Thank you I have no - that's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, only one question, the Chair has already asked the other one.
   Also somewhere in paragraph 3 of the first sentence- 
"When we were about 30 minutes from the bridge I saw two black people on the right-hand side of the bridge next to the barriers"
	Then the last paragraph, before I ask the question, paragraph 6 - not the last paragraph Mr Chairman, "During the incident I didn't notice any other person in the immediate vicinity except for the two black people at the bridge and a white Isuzu Bakkie."
	My question is, today you are telling the Committee that you saw four people and in your affidavit you talked about two people only - you saw on the day in question.  Can you explain that to the Committee?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: When we went to the bridge I saw four people - two on the right and two on the left.  These people were four.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions now.

CHAIRPERSON: You not only said two, you described the two people that you saw?  Can you explain that?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: I saw four people, two on the left side and two on the right side.

MR LAX: Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Mjali, is it correct that when you made this statement the events or the incident were still fresh in your mind?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: Yes, it was fresh.  That is why I couldn't even think properly, I was shocked.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU

MR PRIOR: Mr Mjali, how long did you work for Mr Griesel at that time?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: It was about a year and nine months.

MR PRIOR: And how long was that contract that you were working on in that area.  How long had you already been working in Sterkspruit for at that time?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: I really do not remember for how was the contract when we worked at Savilles, but we had worked from the foundation of the building until we finished.

MR PRIOR: So were you wiring a house?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: It was at Savilles Furnishers at Sterkspruit?

MR PRIOR: Savilles?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: Savilles, yes.

MR PRIOR: And you're not sure how long you'd been in the area for at the time the shooting happened?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: I do not remember.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you usually drive there each day or did you got and stay at Sterkspruit?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: We travelled every day.

CHAIRPERSON: So you arrived at this bridge early in the morning every day?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: Every morning sir.

MR PRIOR: There's just one question arising, through you Mr Chair, if the witness is able to say what time approximately this occurred?

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: I think it was between half past five and five.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence that I have in respect of this matter.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen it seems that this matter is similar to the other ones that we have discussed, that there may be
additional evidence available particularly in the light of the statement which I've showed you both this morning that the PAC APLA will be issuing a statement to the Amnesty Committee which will enable us to reach finality on the matter and it seems to me that we can merely at this stage adjourn the matter through a date to be arranged if that suits you gentlemen?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we adjourn at this stage, I don't know if lunch is ready and maybe reconvene earlier, say at half past one and commence with the matter the application of Mr Gqomfa?

CHAIRPERSON: Well is everybody here for that?

MR PRIOR: Well Mr Chairman, Mr Wagenaar who knows about the matter who has been in communication with us hasn't arrived yet, I don't know whether I should make enquiries?

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest you do from what we've heard in the last few weeks, things happen to people on the road in this part of the country and something may have happened to delay him.

MR PRIOR: I will do so, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn - I don't think half past one is very realistic Mr Prior, I think quarter to two will enable the staff to handle the matter better.  We'll adjourn now till quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Good morning Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may the matter which stood over from last week, that is the Lady Grey, Sterkspruit attack where Mrs Brummer et al were involved.  The applicants were Martin Phila Dolo and Mr James Makoala.  May that be adjourned at this stage Mr Chairman, I do have members of the family of Mr Tsimani present, I'd like him to get away.  The initial indication is that the allegations made by the
Tsimani family need to be properly investigated.  I would not like to comment on the state of those preliminary investigations at this stage but in my view I think the matter needs to be fully canvassed and we'll require some time.  
	May the matter then stand adjourned, sine die, with the date to be arranged with all the legal representatives and the interested parties as soon as those investigations have been completed?

CHAIRPERSON: Anything to say gentlemen?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman. I'm in agreement with what Mr Prior is saying, that it must be fully investigated if it need be.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It also appears to me that this may be one of the cases which may be effected by information which is to be supplied by the PAC and APLA which will be a general application and this seems to fall into that category.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, it falls in that category.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu do you agree?

MR MTHEMBU: I have nothing to say Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Do you request that the matter now be adjourned to a date to be arranged and to a venue to be arranged.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS