Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question, Sir.

MR BERGER: You know because you saw the damage that a shotgun can cause on a human being, and you want to distance yourself from that horror, that is why you say you didn't shoot anymore in Slovo Park and you don't know if you killed anybody in Boipatong.  I am right, aren't I?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I can still hear the interpreter interpreting whilst the next question was already asked.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter was still explaining the question to the witness.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I can respond like this, as follows:  at Boipatong I did not shoot anyone, all I know what I did was to shoot directing to one house only.  In my mind I think that was in the bedroom.  I was standing on the street, I think I hit the bedroom.  I shot in the air, I left the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you shoot once or did you shoot twice?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I used three bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  The first shot that you fired, where was it directed at?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: My first shot was directed at the Self Defence Units.  The second one was directed to one house and the bullet hit the bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you fired directing the shot at a bedroom?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the third shot, was it the one that you fired into the air?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you.
	You fired into a bedroom because you knew that there would be people in bed, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: In that bedroom the light was on.

MR BERGER: And you knew there would be people in bed, that is why you fired into the bedroom, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know that there would be people in bed, or there were people in bed.

MR BERGER: Why did you fire into a bedroom?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was trying to break the windows.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Buthelezi, there were many people breaking windows.  Your job was to kill people.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I've explained that I myself, I was afraid to kill a human being.

MR BERGER: You knew when you fired into that bedroom, that you had a very good chance of hitting people in bed, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was just shooting.

MR BERGER: Mr Buthelezi, I can see you don't want to answer my question, I'll move on.  If there were police and police vehicles in Boipatong, you would have seen them, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: If the police had assisted you and your fellow attackers in Boipatong, you would know about that, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would know about that.

MR BERGER: Because you would have seen it and you would have discussed it with your co-attackers afterwards, am I right.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Am I correct when I say you said Damarra's group went towards the shops and your group took the other route, that would mean that your group moved right down the first street in Boipatong, correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: In Moshweshwe Street I can just tell you that there were many windows smashed in many houses by your colleagues.  Do you agree that there were plenty of people around  you smashing windows in Moshweshwe Street?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I agree.

MR BERGER: At 11.93 Dick Mokoena was injured with a shotgun wound.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Pardon?

MR BERGER: Dick Mokoena.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I do not know that person.

MR BERGER: The next day after the attack, are you saying that you have no knowledge of anything being burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know where these goods, the place, the spot where these goods were burnt.

MR BERGER: But you do know that goods were burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Goods which were stolen from Boipatong.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who gave the order that those goods should be burnt, do you know?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: In the room that I was staying Damarra came in ...

MR BERGER: Yes?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He told us that if we had taken something from Boipatong, we should take it to the stadium so that it could be burnt.

MR BERGER: And was anything taken from your room to the stadium?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who had stolen stuff from Boipatong and what had they stolen.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Hollie Bajosi brought a video machine, Skubuzo had a blanket, that is all.

MR BERGER: And Damarra said that these goods must be taken to the stadium to be burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he said anyone who had stolen property from Boipatong, that should be taken to the stadium.

MR BERGER: When you went to the meeting at the stadium, had the goods already been burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I hope so.

MR BERGER: But you don't know.

MR BERGER: No, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that Themba Khosa gave the instruction that the goods should be burnt and the weapons should be destroyed?  I beg your pardon, the evidence linking you to the attack on Boipatong, should be destroyed?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, that is not Mr Themba Khosa's instruction,  that was not Mr Themba Khosa's instruction.

MR BERGER: What was his instruction?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Mr Themba Khosa came and I heard him saying that they were shocked about the Boipatong incident and he wanted to know if we had any knowledge as to who did that, who was involved in that incident and  everyone denied having any knowledge to that effect.

MR BERGER: Why?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No-one wanted to be arrested at that time.

MR BERGER: But when Themba Khosa spoke the police were not in the stadium, were they?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I think police were there on that particular day.

MR BERGER: Did you deny your involvement because you knew that such an attack would not be approved by Themba Khosa, is that why you denied it?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we denied our involvement there in that particular incident.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is, did you deny your involvement in the attack because you knew that Themba Khosa would not have approved the attack on Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, Mr Khosa, I am sure that he wouldn't approve and he wouldn't be happy if he had known that we were the people who did that.

MR BERGER: You knew that on the 18th of June 1992?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR BERGER: Did you know that on the 18th of June 1992, that Themba Khosa wouldn't have been happy if he had known that you were responsible for the attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That is my view.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Mkhize give an instruction that the goods looted from Boipatong should be burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I don't know but in our room, Mr Damarra came.

MR BERGER: So would you answer at page 188 where you say: Question 5.1
"Mr Khosa did not give such a warning, this warning was given by Damarra and Mkhize."
Would the reference to Mkhize there be wrong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I can say so.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know Mr Mkhize?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: No, at the time, did you know him, at the time of the attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, Serame pointed him to me at the stadium.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR BERGER: This is the night of the attack, the night of the 17th?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Buthelezi, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Buthelezi, it's your evidence that you were not a member of the IFP before the 17th of June 1992.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Are you talking about June or July?

MR MALINDI: 17 June 1992.