Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

MR MALAN: Yes, that's exactly what the summary says, you walked into the IFP area, then you opened fire on the witness there, Zondo.  Then it continues to say that a certain Cele was on his way to the shop, that you confronted him and asked him about his political affiliations, that he said that he was the member of Inkatha and that you then shot him.  Can you remember that?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you stop Cele and ask him whether he was Inkatha or what his political affiliations were?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And then you proceeded to go to another place where you took Mr Mavundla from a friends home, apparently not even his own home, you took him from another person's home, is that correct?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes that is correct.  That is when I ran away.

MR MALAN: After you had killed him?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: One of us, my boys, shot at him.  Thereafter I ran away and whilst I was fleeing I heard another shot.  I think Themba Ngcobo was the person who was shooting at him at the time, killing him.

MR MALAN: Why did you run away?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I saw IFP members approaching from above and they were shooting and because I was not armed with a firearm, I just had a knobkierie, I ran away.

MR MALAN: When did your commander, Mr Themba Ngcobo, when did he instruct you to go and kill these people, where did it happen?  Where did you receive your instructions?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: We were in an ANC area where we used to camp, it's Malukazi.

MR MALAN: Did he tell you you were to go and kill?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: He told us that whoever we meet we must shoot at them.

MR MALAN: So it was an instruction to go and look for IFP members to kill them.  They weren't identified in advance, is that your evidence?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now, so these people were simply unfortunate that you got to them or did you have any knowledge that they were in a battle with you, these particular persons that you killed?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: It is not true that we were just going to shoot at the two of them but we intended to go to their camp but unfortunately for that person we met him as he was going to some house.

MR MALAN: Right, so just to get it clear then, the instruction was not to go and kill specific individuals, the instruction was to cross over into the IFP area, looking for IFP people to kill them and for you to accompany Ngcobo, is that correct?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes I will say so.

MR MALAN: Now just the last question, just tell me in which way was Mr Ngcobo your commander, what was his authority, where did he get his authority from?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: He was elected by the ANC community, people like Gumede.

MR MALAN: And what was he elected to?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: He was told that he was going to be commander of the people, that he was going to be under him and he was also informed as to what they would do and how to deploy them.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he to organise the marshalls for the protection, was he the commander of the marshalls or what commander was he?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I will say that he was the commander of those ANC people who would be coming along to look for our opponents.

MR MALAN: Were you part of those who elected him?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: No, but I was present.

MR MALAN: What did - you referred to the robbery for which you don't apply but I think it links onto the possible motive of the killing.  From both the deceased you took wristwatches and wallets or money according to the evidence introduced at the trial.  You say you can't dispute that but you have recollection only of the one?  Did I understand you correctly?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now on page 67 of the judgement - of the bundle, right at the bottom, this is now after the wallet and the wristwatch had been taken from Mavundla and this is quoted from a statement made by your co-accused - what's his name?
Sorry?  Myboy Mavusa, according to a statement made by him, said that you went and you bought with the money four quarts of Castle beer and you all drank that, can you recall that?
Did Themba buy you beer?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I don't consume alcohol, I was not there went they bought that liquor.

MR MALAN: So they alone - do you have knowledge that they went to consume liquor or don't you have any knowledge of that?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I don't know anything about that, I have no knowledge of what happened to the money.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, do you have any questions to put to Mr Ncishane?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions, Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ncishane, will you therefore say a mistake was made when your affidavit was drawn up and attested to by you?  Particularly at paragraph 6 where you state that the instructions were to kill specific persons and that what in fact happened was that you were instructed to kill - to launch an indiscriminate attack on IFP persons?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes I would agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was such an instruction given by Mr Ngcobo, was it given on that particular day on which these attacks were carried out?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: He gave the order on the very same day that we launched the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and was Mr Cele killed at a different place from when Mr Mavundla was killed?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Mavundla killed in a particular house?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I would say that is correct because one person was killed near his house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he killed inside the house?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Outside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about Mr Mavundla, you say he was killed outside the house?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes they were killed outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ncishane, you may step down.  Ms Loonat?  Do you propose to call any witness in support of Mr Ncishane's application?

MS LOONAT: No Madame Chair I don't, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You close your case?

MS LOONAT: Thank you Madame Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED