Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

UNKNOWN: So it wouldn't be correct to say then Patrick Molusane mistakenly took him for a dog as you alleged earlier on?

JUDGE WILSON: He didn't say he mistook him for a dog.  He said he said, this is a dog, which is a term of insult.

UNKNOWN: Oh I understood him to be saying that he thought he was stabbing a dog.

JUDGE WILSON: Not as I understood it.

ADV DE JAGER: But then why did he light the match to see whether it was child or not? If he realised it was a child and not a dog.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No no, I thought Mr Wilson has answered the question which was asked by the evidence presenter, when he said he was dog he was explaining that, let's say his father is a sell-out, therefore the slogan used by the ANC is that the dog must be killed together with its children, he was saying that he was a dog belonging to the Phelane family, do I think I've answered your question.

UNKNOWN: If I remember very well, you said you asked Mr Patrick why was he stabbing a small boy and then he said because it was dark he thought it was a dog.

N JACK MENERA: No maybe I put it differently, you didn't understand it quite well.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well if that is really your answer then you should answer the question which was raised last by Adv de Jager, because if you knew when you came back from wherever, whether from the kitchen or wherever, if you actually were aware that Patrick was a human being and when Patrick said I'm stabbing a dog, if you understood Patrick to mean that he was stabbing a child of a sell-out, then you must explain to us why you lit the matches.

N JACK MENERA: The reason for me to light a match, I didn't see who this person was, who Patrick was stabbing, I have indicated that when we stabbed Susan Phelane the lights went off, and I am sure that Patrick himself didn't see what was happening, because when we entered the shop, this child Patrick, I didn't see him myself.  I only saw his mother.  I only came to know of his presence when I heard that there was a person crying in the shop and then I went back.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You're now saying that Patrick thought that he was in fact stabbing an animal.

N JACK MENERA: No.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Patrick knew that he was stabbing a human being?   Are you saying that Patrick, when he stabbed a child he was aware that he was stabbing a human being?

N JACK MENERA: Yes he knew.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What was the purpose of your lighting matches, because you gave us the impression that in lighting matches you wanted to ascertain whether it was a human being or an animal.

N JACK MENERA: I must have put my point in a different way that you didn't understand it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I accept that I didn't understand it but now I've made to understand it. I understand it, you can proceed with something else.

ADV DE JAGER: My note is that, I asked  Patrick, who are you stabbing, he said a dog, I lit a match. I said no, you're stabbing a child, not a dog.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Chairperson of the evidence has always been that the applicant heard a scream.  He then went to the shop and it was dark, he struck a match and he then said you are stabbing a child.  However there was not suggestion that Mr Patrick Malusane thought that he was stabbing an animal and the lighting was for the purpose of identifying the person who was being stabbed. That has always been my understanding of his evidence.

UNKNOWN: Can I comment for purposes of direction, can I suggest that we listen to the tape again because I had the same diction...(indistinct)the other set.

JUDGE WILSON: Let us go on, during the adjournment you can do that because we are going to be adjourning fairly soon. Continue now.

UNKNOWN: That's what I am suggesting, we continue.  One last question Mr Menera, you say from Johannesburg you went to back to Brandfort and your intention was kill the rest of the family.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: If amnesty were to be granted to you today, and you are released, would you still want to pursue that intention?

N JACK MENERA: No.  The reason why I am before the Commission today is to ask amnesty, not from the Commission but from Mr Phelane and his family and the community as a whole.
What I have indicated that it was our intention. I think people have achieved what they wanted, there is no time presently for me to fight Mr Phelane or him to fight me, as he is doing.  I'm telling you that the people in our township are still being harassed by Mr Phelane's gangsters.  I was very happy to see him here because he will understand what I am [presenting before the Commission, because he knows very well that what I am saying here is the truth.  	The most important thing is this one.  Mr Morgan Phelane made some mistakes, Mr Morgan Phelane has to forgive so that we can forgive him back, and I will take him to the community to ask forgiveness on his behalf.  I have mentioned our comrades who had been killed by Mr Phelane's gangsters.  Nobody was arrested but the parents know very well who killed their children. I am here and I am in Brandfort.  I am prepared to intervene.  I was expecting that people that I have referred to today like Christian Bosman, Billy, we know exactly what happened to them. We were also expecting that Mr Phelane himself or Edward Phelane would be standing here before the Commission asking amnesty.
	As people we would forgive him and then maybe he would forgive us.  I am asking now, Mr Phelane, stop the attacks in the township or stop the attacks conducted by your group, because at the end of the day you are the only person who will be faced with all these things.  I am here to ask amnesty, forgiveness from Mr Phelane in what we did to his family.

JUDGE WILSON: Aren't you in prison at the moment?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: How long have you been there?

N JACK MENERA: It's about six years.

JUDGE WILSON: So how can you tell us what is happening in the township today?

N JACK MENERA: Judge Wilson there is a kind of situation.  I requested my advocate that the forgiveness that I am going to ask from Mr Phelane should be done collectively as a group of people who committed these acts.  The TRC gave my co-accused a date to appear before the Commission.  I believe they will also come and give their version of the story an they're going to ask for forgiveness from Mr Phelane and his family.

JUDGE WILSON: Once again you have not answered the question but you can leave it.

UNKNOWN: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS FROM MS THABETHA
CROSS EXAMINATION BY JUDGE WILSON

JUDGE WILSON: I want to ask you some questions now.  The trial court that convicted you heard the evidence of Patrick, didn't it?

N JACK MENERA: Patrick Malusasni or Phelane?

JUDGE WILSON: And Patrick told the court how he saw you stabbing Mrs Phelane in the neck with a knife and also near the left shoulder.  You remember that?

N JACK MENERA: I remember everything that was said on that day.

JUDGE WILSON: And Patrick then said that you then came to him and stabbed him a number of times with a knife.  But while you were stabbing him, the other two accused whom he recognised which included Patrick Malusani were breaking up things on the counter.

N JACK MENERA: This is an answer to your question.  Judge Wilson I want you to understand correctly that the evidence that was given in court by Patrick is not true.  If Patrick really saw what happened that day at the shop, Patrick would have seen who killed his mother

JUDGE WILSON: He saw you stabbing her.

N JACK MENERA: I'm explaining this to you. What happened at the shop on that day, on the 14th of July, Patrick was asleep and I believe that he woke up when he was stabbed and that he was stabbed...(intervention)