Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR PRIOR: I'm referring to evidence in chief, I ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: I don't think it's fair to put something to a witness which wasn't ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Will you verify that?

MR PRIOR: I'll move on Mr Chairman, if I'm mistaken I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRIOR: But that is my note.
	Did you see Mr Gqomfa firing at the tavern or into the tavern at any stage on that evening?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was not focusing on Gqomfa's action but there were bullet sounds at that time.

MR PRIOR: You are unable to tell us whether he was armed with an AK47 or an R4 rifle, is that correct?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't say, I was focusing on my position.

MR PRIOR: Was it not your orders to immediately lob or toss the grenade into the restaurant, that is before the rifle grenade was to be launched?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, it is an order I received to launch a grenade.

MR PRIOR: And were you focused on that order?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was focusing on that order however it happened that Madasi was in the way so to speak, this is why I could not launch this hand grenade because I was going to kill my comrade.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mabala told us that an attorney had come to see him and prepared another amnesty application form for him which had been duly filed and he received notification to that effect.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I remember that Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: I asked Mr Prior to make enquiries as to that because the present file as - the present application as we agreed yesterday, is totally inadequate but he tells me that they cannot find any record of it, so I wondered if when the adjournment comes, if you could speak to your client about it and see if we can obtain any more information as to who the attorney was - he may well have a copy of it.  Or you may - I don't know if you know who the attorney was, whether enquiries could be made from him as to whether a copy is available.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I'll do my best to assist in that way Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: All I know is that there have been logistical problem in trying to trace some applicants and that's just based on my experience in other applications.  Mr Chairman will recall Lambisa for example - in the St James matter, he was adamant that he had filed one and then it was found at a very late stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Rather than say it's not here, if the attorney could possibly give dates and references.

MR PRIOR: When you got out of the vehicle, did you move towards the entrance to the restaurant?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: To do what by the door of the restaurant?  What was I going to do there?

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question please.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I did not go Sir.

MR PRIOR: Did anyone else go into the restaurant with Mr Madasi?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I saw Madasi only.

MR PRIOR: You see at page 43 of the paginated papers, the bundle and in the Judgement - I'm referring to the Judgement, at your trial there was evidence was on Ciska du Plessis that two persons entered the tavern immediately before the attack and one was taller than the other, one was a short person and one was a taller person.  I want to ask you, are you taller than Mr Madasi?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I'm taller than Madasi.

MR PRIOR: Did you not go into the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I did not enter the tavern, I did not enter the tavern.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Sibeko enter the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't know, I wasn't really looking at him.

MR PRIOR: Weren't you focusing on the door or the entrance to the tavern while you say you were trying to - you were conscious of protecting the unit?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I want to tell you one thing Sir, I was focusing on my position - it just happened that Madasi went in, then I had to shift my focus for their own safety.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree no-one was shooting back at you - your life wasn't threatened at that stage or at any stage?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't say nobody was shooting at us, we couldn't know if there were people looking at us.  I couldn't be sure whether we would be attacked all of a sudden or not.  Somebody could be armed, somebody amongst the victims or anybody else - I can't say that we were protected as such because nobody was aiming at us.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that there was a balcony above the entrance to the Heidelberg Tavern, in other words there was a second story?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I couldn't remember that Sir.

MR PRIOR: Can you remember whether any fire was directed to above the entrance of the tavern?
	Mr Chairman, at page 1 of Exhibit A, one sees a second storey - not very clearly, but I understand that there is a veranda that runs along the top and it also housed a restaurant.

CHAIRPERSON: Let the witness look at that photograph.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What is your question Sir therefore?

MR PRIOR: Was there any fire directed at that veranda above the Heidelberg Tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I cannot remember, all this happened within a very short span of time - I can't remember.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer you to Exhibit B and Exhibit B(1) - the sketch plan and the key.
	I understand that the defence have copies, could the applicant be given a copy please.  May I enquire whether they have - I understand from your secretary that copies were made available.

CHAIRPERSON: For?

MR PRIOR: I simply want to ask the applicant to look at Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you have a copy in front of you of this document?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, I don't think it's simply a matter of semantics, it's very important - certainly I speak for myself at this point, that we shouldn't be referred to as the defence.  It's very important for this process and I'm concerned about that because Mr Prior is also acting for the victims.   We are not here to defend what the applicants did, we are here to assist the application ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So that it complies with the requirements of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think the word: "defence" must not be used.

MR PRIOR: I apologise, it's simply a slip of the tongue.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you have a look at this document?
	Now, put your question Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: If you look at the sketch plan, there's a motor vehicle marked CA674119 at point K, that is opposite the entrance to the tavern - not exactly opposite but almost diagonally opposite, now there's evidence that that vehicle which is unrelated to any interested party at these proceedings was damaged by a bullet.  Are you able to give us an explanation as to how possibly that vehicle was damaged?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't explain that matter, I was not there to be looking at cars that are being shot - I can't explain that.

MR PRIOR: Were you at some stage ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Prior, I don't know if you have seen the photographs that have been made available to me at my request?

MR PRIOR: No, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: I think it's almost time for an adjournment and you might like to look at them there is in the bundle of photographs that's now available, a photograph of this motorcar and of what appears to be numerous bullets marks in the building behind it and you might like to look at that if you're going to ask the witness questions - the applicant questions.

MR PRIOR: And possibly also the legal representatives of the applicants to have sight of those photographs because ...[intervention]