Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

MR WILLS: Mr Chairman, there's just one issue, which isn't really re-examination, but I was relying on you requesting if there was anything more, I wanted to bring out after the evidence leader had completed - it's just a brief issue, but obviously, if anything arises out of it, then I would imagine that you would allow any person to cross-examine.  I don't think that will be the case.  May I just raise this issue?  Thank you.  Mr Mbambo, we have heard both you and Mkhize talk about weapons and in fact Mr Mkhize indicated that the weapons were stored in a trunk.  Now were you ever found by anybody, any authority, in possession of these weapons?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is true.  One evening I was in my house, it was about 12 midnight.  The Internal Stability Unit arrived at my house from SAP and they kicked my door open and it broke and I was awoken up and they pointed me with R5s and they asked me as to where the weapons were, the guns, and they asked me about the AK47s.  Those were white officers and I told them that I had no guns in my home.  They pushed me aside and took my 9mm and searched the whole house and under my bed they realised two AK47 and that time, one white sergeant entered and as he entered, he asked if I wasn't a police and I said, "I am" and he asked if I was not with the investigators in Esikhaweni, I said yes, I am there and he said that's fine and he asked the other two white officers with those AK47 to put them down and asked them to leave my bedroom and leave us alone and they went to the kitchen and I was left with him now in my bedroom and he asked me as to why I just leave the guns and just leave them carelessly like that and I told them(?) that I've been attacked several times, that's why I have those guns under

MR WILLS: /my

MR WILLS: 3A my bed and he said to me I should not place them this careless, because he knows that the police are being attacked by ANC and he doesn't think there anything wrong for police to be found in possession of AK47s and also said he was sorry about the door that they broke and said he will come on Monday, that I should come on Monday to submit a statement that they gathered wrong information, but it wasn't the MK member occupying the house, it was a policeman ... [break in recording]

MR WILLS: (END OF CASSETTE NO 3A)

MR WILLS: (START OF CASSETTE NO 3B)

MR WILLS: 3B

WITNESS:   ... police, how we worked as a Police Force and I asked him why he was asking that question and he said, "Are you divided, because we got an information about KwaZulu Police that here, in this J2 house, 491 number, we were told that the occupant of the house was an MK member who had AK47s in his possession" and I said to him, "Yes, some police do sympathise with the ANC, but others are neutral and others sympathise with the IFP" and he said I should come with him so that he could point to me the police that gave them that kind of information.  Yes, I followed him and when we got outside near my gate, there were two police Casspirs with SAP - and another van from Esikhaweni Police Station and that police took me to the van and I discovered that the driver was Sergeant Dlamini and the police said, "This is the person who gave us that information that the occupant of this house is an MK member".  Inside that van there was a boy called Mbuzo - I'm sorry, I made a mistake, it is not Mbuzo - it is not Sibuso(?), it is Mbuzo(?), that boy is Mbuzo.  He was just a civilian and at the same time an ANC member from H1

MR WILLS: /Location

MR WILLS: 3B Location.  He had put on a camouflage, KwaZulu camouflage uniform and next to him there was Constable Gabela and also he was stationed in Esikhaweni and I said to these police, "This person is drunk and you can even smell liquor", and the police said, "You, Sergeant, leave this house, because - or leave the car, get out from the car, because we want to test you if you are drunk or not".  The car was idling.  He drove, accelerated and the road was curvy and he was with ... [break in recording].  These other members of ITU ran and crossed my house and tried to stop that vehicle, but he moved through those members and fled.  I wasn't alone in the house.  I was alone in the house and I left and I went to Mrs Mbuyazi's house and I told her all what happened.  Mrs Mbuyazi said, "It's time we search for Dlamini and kill him at once.  That's when she gave me her car, that is Mrs Mbuyazi, with Israel Hlongwane, because Israel Hlongwane was already in Mrs Mbuyazi's house that evening and said we should track him down, track Sergeant Dlamini.  We did that and we found him in H2(?), with some other police and we waited outside until he got inside the car and drove off and we followed him and we realised that he was driving towards J2 and we parked our car and walked.  I had with me a shotgun and waited for him at a T-junction and when he approached, he did not stop.  It look like the car was yield - he was going to stop, but it yielded.  I had already aimed with my shotgun.  Just when I was about to shoot, Israel Hlongwane got hold of the shotgun barrel and the gun shot right next to the door of the car, driver's side.  In that time he drove for his life, he ran away.

MR WILLS: Now obviously the inference of your evidence is that

MR WILLS: /whilst

MR WILLS: 3B whilst the police saw you in the house with an AK47 or two AK47s, you in fact were not arrested?

WITNESS:   No, I wasn't arrested.  They apologised for kicking and breaking my door and they said there wasn't any fault for me to be found in possession of AK47.

MR WILLS: Thank you, that's the only issue I wanted to raise, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lasich, anything arising out of that or anybody else, obviously?

MR LASICH: No, Mr Chairman, the denial has already been recorded.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I, please?  Visser on record.  Sir, may I just try to summarise the gist of what you've been saying.  You say one evening you were in your home.  The police arrived, kicked in your door, found two AK47s under your bed and they did nothing about that?

WITNESS:  That is true.

MR VISSER: Were you alone in my home?

WITNESS:   Yes, I was alone at the time.

MR VISSER: Now I think you'd better tell us, do you know who the police officer was who sent the others out and had said that it's okay for you to have an AK47?

WITNESS:   I don't their surnames, but they did arrive to submit the statement on Monday to Mzimela and they were traced and also came to my trial at the court to give evidence with regard to this matter.

MR VISSER: Well, were you also, inter alia, charged with the illegal possession of firearms at your trial?

WITNESS:   No.

MR VISSER: What evidence did they come to present then relating to this incident you're talking about now?

WITNESS:   At the

MR VISSER: /trial

MR VISSER: 3B trial I gave that evidence that I have just given to this Commission.  In that way those police were traced and they were recovered and they were brought to the Court of Law to be questioned and one came, only one police came.

MR VISSER: And who was he?

WITNESS:   I do not remember his surname.

MR VISSER: And what did he tell the Court?

WITNESS:   He agreed to the fact that they came to my house and that they broke my door, but when he discovered that I was a police, they apologised and left my house and went to the station, police station, to submit a statement to Mzimela and said there was no gun at home.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, let me try to understand.  You say that this police officer gave evidence to say there was no gun at your home?  Is that what he's saying?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true.