Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

JOHN DAVID HARE: I think the easiest will be if I give you an indication of what the role was that I played at Armscor and then refer that to the change in my employment in 1990 and indicate what my responsibilities are and have been from that period.
 I was employed by Armscor in the capacity of the general manager of one of the subsidiary companies Infoplan in 1976, April of 1976.  Infoplan is a subsidiary company which at the time was responsible for the provision of data processing services, computer services to Armscor and certain of it's subsidiary companies.
 It had a small personnel and there was an in-house data processing company.  Approximately a year later I was asked to move from the general managership of Infoplan through to the Armscor head office when Armscor and the Armament Board amalgamated it's operations.
 At the time the change in my function involved the installation and updating of financial records, particularly those that had been maintained by the old Armaments Board, the installation of financial systems and the development of those systems so that the company could account properly and duly in terms of the Companies Act and it's own enactment which was applicable.
 I served in that capacity for a number of years.  I continued my responsibility for the data processing company.  My capacity, my role at that stage was, title was that of senior general manager finance.  At a later stage we split the functions, Armscor split the functions of finance into two.  The one that I retained responsibility for was in essence the treasury function.  
 The treasury function was predominantly the provision of funding for the operations of Armscor through approaches to the capital market, through approaches to various lenders.  It was over and above that a specialist function in terms of the negotiation and provision of export finance for export contracts where arms were sold to a variety of purchases and it continued through holding directorships of Armscor's manufacturing, certain of their manufacturing subsidiary companies in which role I was particularly responsible for their financial acumen for their proper accounting of their transactions.
 In late 1989 I was approached by a consulting firm of recruitment specialists.  At the time it was indicated to me that a major client of that company had a desire to appoint a chief financial officer.  It was put to me that the particular role was very necessary in terms of the degree of expertise held by that company and the fact that they were in the throes of corporatising and converting from a State owned entity into a parastatal and after several months of negotiation concerning the possibility I had made the decision to transfer and commence employment with South African Airways.
 I was appointed at the time as senior general manager of South African Airways with a particular responsibility for finance and accounting systems and in that capacity I acted for several, for a couple of years until such time as we had some re-organisations within South African Airways and my responsibilities were augmented.  I later became responsible for data processing operations, for capital purchases, for fuel purchases, for a period for the cargo operations of the company, that was for a limited period and subsequently for the maintenance operations of South African Airways.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.  We have talked obviously to a large number of people in terms of the Helderberg.  Now two former SAA employees, in fact one is still an employee has told me that Armscor did have an account with SAA and I think you would be in a very good position to clarify that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Ms Terreblanche I can't shed any light on that.  I'm not aware that there was an account.  My only comment would be that any number of South African corporations have accounts with South African Airways.  It may be that there was such an account in existence.  That would include, if I look at the average South African corporation an account for passengers, it would include a cargo account, it could include any number of items that were transacted between South African Airways and Armscor.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Would you have been aware of such an account being aware of the financial position?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I think that, you know you infer in, aware of the financial position the level of detail, but quite frankly I'm not aware of.  We had a number of accounts that were operated by South African corporations with SAA.  I would normally only expect to become aware of the detail of those accounts if they were in a situation where they were giving problems.  If they weren't paying their bills or they were in arrears for some particular reason.  So I wouldn't normally expect to be aware of an account like that.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.  I think Dr Klatzow would also like to ask you a couple of questions.

DR KLATZOW: Mr Hare, thank you for coming along.  Your background is accounting, is that correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm a chartered accountant yes.

DR KLATZOW: And as part of that background you would have intimate and detailed knowledge of the structure of a company?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I would expect to have a comprehensive knowledge, yes.

DR KLATZOW: And therefore if you were in a senior executive position you would know how that company functioned?

JOHN DAVID HARE: In terms of it's basic operations I would expect to have knowledge of it's functions.

DR KLATZOW: Now, at the time you were an executive member of an Armscor subsidiary, is that correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I was a member of the board of directors of various Armscor subsidiary companies.

DR KLATZOW: And you would be aware that Armscor - I think if you use the other microphone it won't keep switching off.  The basic structure of the company would be something that would be well known to you.  Now Armscor functioned in a period where we as South Africans were considered to be pariahs of the world, is that correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Certainly.

DR KLATZOW: We had to use every skill and ingenuity that the country could offer in order to break the sanctions that were occurring at the time, is that not correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I would say so.

DR KLATZOW: And Armscor did so by means of not only the skill which they could bring to it by the use of skilled personnel such as yourself but they did not hesitate to use subterfuge in order to achieve their ends on many occasions, is that not correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow I think that when you say use subterfuge, I think that it's correct to say that none of the transactions that Armscor undertook were at the time contrary to any South African Law.

DR KLATZOW: I'm not referring to South African Law.  You broke International Laws on, with impunity, on many occasions in order to achieve your aims and in fact up until recently, the Armscor had a major embarrassment and was a major stumbling block because you had broken Federal Laws in the United States and your Armscor officials are up on a charge in the United States, is that not correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm not aware of the detail of the charges that were levelled against them.  Certainly it would be correct to say that Armscor was involved in the acquisition of military hardware and that there were items which, or that in that acquisition it was probable that certain international regulations would have been broken.

DR KLATZOW: With impunity in fact?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow that's your definition, not mine.

DR KLATZOW: Would you, do you remember that South Africa was involved in the illicit gaining of plans for the Daphne class submarines which caused an international outrage?

JOHN DAVID HARE: You're operating in an area of which I have no knowledge.

DR KLATZOW: But it was public news.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I have read that that was the case.