Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-24

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of the commission I would like to thank you for being here, for sharing with us and with this audience and with the wider audience, what you have been through and the burden that you have carried.  The fact that you have gone to so much trouble and that so many of you are part of this, I think is an enormous tribute to Ric, and reminds us that he is not dead.
I think, secondly, your attribute to him today and your desire to find out the truth reminds us all that one vicious act touches some many people, not just one, but families, children, and children to come.   But you have also reminded us that ideas are powerful.   
Why they didn't like Richard Turner was not that he was not an activist, because really deeply down he wasn't one.   He was much more dangerous.   He had ideas and you can't kill an idea.   Yes, it is true that bearers of ideas become victims, but their ideas are passed on, and I think one of the greatest encouragements for you and for all of us is that the ideas that he espoused and propagated  shared, argued  about, debated, have come true.
Yes, we are a very young, weak, struggling democracy.   Yes, freedom is limited.   But, the pain we have now is not the pain of death, or the dance of death, it birth pain, and Richard Turner and many others were the midwives.   
You have asked for us to do certain things.   Let me say to Fowzia that obviously personally and in many other ways many of us would like to see that chair.   We would think it is well deserved.   This is not entirely within the scope of the commission.   We would have to be discussion with the university, but that discussion will take place.
As far as the subpoenas are concerned, and the attempt to find out even so much such a long time after the event, we have already issued subpoenas for:
Colonel Andy Taylor;
Brigadier Chris Earl;
Uri Prinsloo;
David Beeldus;
Arnold van der Westhuizen.
We are already in discussion with Paul Erasmus and Martin Dolinchek.   And tomorrow Basie Smit, who has already been subpoenaed, will be answering questions at a meeting that I will be at and some of my colleagues in Cape Town.   
Now, you will appreciate that it is extraordinary difficult to get to the truth.   You have experienced how difficult it is.   More than most.   We cannot promise that we will find the truth.   That we will pursue it, that we can promise.
I personally am very deeply encouraged by the events of this week.   Who would have thought that a Commission of Police, a former commissioner of the Police, the head of police in this country, would point a finger publicly at a former minister and a former State President.  Now, some of that truth has come about by subpoena.   Some of it because people cannot live with themselves any longer and need to tell the truth.   There are many ways.   I am not at all despairing that we will find the truth, I simply say we cannot promise that.   I actually think that there is an extremely good chance that the truth will be known.
What you do with that truth is up to you.   We, in the commission, are working towards reconciliation.  We think the truth is absolutely essential if there is to be reconciliation in South Africa.   We think your search and your quest and your suffering is a major contribution in that regard, but you would be the first to acknowledge that there are thousands upon thousands of South Africans across the length and breadth of this land whose truth must be known.   Our resources are very slim.   Our time is limited.   We will do what we can.  
The commission will stand adjourned for about 20 minutes and we will return at twenty two twelve.  We have two more witnesses that we want to hear before 1 o'clock.  Thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
/ON RESUMPTION
3B/0 ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Daphne Mnguni, and I will ask her please to come to the witness stand.  (Pause)   I must apologise for a slight delay.    We seem to be missing the interpreters and we simply cannot continue without them.   Somebody has gone to fetch them, don't worry.   We will probably fire them after that.   (Pause)
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we seem to be ready and the interpreters.
DAPHNE MNGUNI

CHAIRPERSON: The first word to you is one of a very warm welcome.   You have had quite a long wait, but you tell me that you are ready.

WITNESS:   Yes, I am.

CHAIRPERSON: I am very very pleased to see you personally.   Tell me who is sitting with you today?

WITNESS:    These are my two daughters.

CHAIRPERSON: And their names are?

WITNESS:   My eldest daughter, Hazel, and Cecilia.

CHAIRPERSON: Hazel and Cecilia, we would like to welcome you, and thank you very much for being with your mother.  This is not an easy thing to do, and - but I want you to very feel very relaxed.   You can take a deep breath and know that we really are wanting to hear from you.   We are very pleased to see you.   Now, Mrs Mnguni, I must ask you to please stand for the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: OATH ADMINISTERED AT THIS STAGE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Will you please be

CHAIRPERSON:   seated.   Mrs Mnguni, you are the sister of Mzizi Dube?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Many of us will know that your brother was a household name.

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For many many years.  He has a very proud record.  And you, I know, shared in that together with the whole family, and you are here to tell that story, but you are not going to tell it to me, or to the commission, you are going to tell it to the country, through the media, because it is so important for everybody to know what has happened.   And I am going to ask my colleague, Reverend Dr Mgojo, to lead you as you tell your story, but it is your story.   Thank you.

KHOZA MGOJO: Good day, Daphne.

CHAIRPERSON: You will notice that there are earphones which should be on the seats close to you.  Those of you who speak Zulu, you won't need them.   Those of you who don't, you will need them.  So, I would be very grateful if you would make use of that, so that you can all share in this.  If you haven't got earphones and you need them, if you could start signalling around and we will make sure that one of the staff tries to find one for you.   Thank you very much.   If you could see - if you can see someone who does need them, and share.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: QUESTIONED BY DR MGOJO

CHAIRPERSON: I was greeting you, Mrs Mnguni, together with your daughters.   I also - will you all be talking?

WITNESS:  No, I am the only one who is going to be speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: This scares me that I am the one who has got to lead you in evidence, because your brother was my peer, we grew up together.    At the time you were staying in Lamontville, and at that time I was still very young.   We were of the same age with your brother, and I am very happy that I am the one who is leading you in evidence.   So, I am going to help you with certain questions, up to such time that you are comfortable and you can relate your story.   Mzizi Dube is your brother, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have any children?

WITNESS:   Yes, he has a boy and a girl, Seyathemba and Vuzimusi.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are they staying?

WITNESS:   They are staying with their mother in Clermont Extension.

CHAIRPERSON: Is their mother separated from their father?

WITNESS: Yes, they got separated a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mzizi a member of the ANC Youth League in 1940?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was still very young at that time, and he was a member of the ANC's league.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that when he still at school, he was at Adam's College?

WITNESS:   That is correct, he was at Adam's College.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember what was happening in 1952?