Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MS MTANGA: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: It's been indicated to me by Faiza, that you had agreed that the sitting will go on up until five to accommodate Correctional Services who are coming from Pretoria and who are going back there.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought that was corrected to the effect that Correctional Services hasn't got a problem if we were to sit a bit later.

MS MTANGA: Apparently it was ...(indistinct) after I had done so.  They arrived late and then Faiza spoke to them after I had spoken to you about it.  With the other Correctional Services people from Witbank.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but now what is the present position?  We were told before we convened that Correctional Services hasn't got a problem if we were to continue later.  Now what is the present situation, because I intend to carry on.

MS MTANGA: The present situation is that I spoke to the authorities coming from Witbank, that is the people who brought the first applicant, and then when the second group arrived we were busy consulting and they spoke to Faiza, and then I didn't get the feedback from them.  So Faiza has just indicated to me now that they were only prepared to stay up until five.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, which group is that

MS MTANGA: That will be Michael Phasha - it's the Pretoria group that brought Michael Phasha, Adgadi Skosana and one ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't concern Daniel, who is now to testify?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Not him.  Sorry, Ms Mtanga - Mr Richard, where's the other Phasha?

MS MTANGA: The third Phasha is said to be sick, so he won't be attending the hearing, he's hospitalised.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay.

MR RICHARD: That is correct.  I haven't taken it further.  I think it's in everybody's interest for us to proceed.  I do not know when he will be well enough to attend, and at this stage of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's activities, I don't think we can hold back proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may just come in.  Faiza has just indicated that the authorities from Pretoria, they're willing to wait for you to finish with Daniel as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll do that because it appears that they don't actually need, physically need Daniel in their group, but it might be good for Michael just to be present.  I'll proceed to administer the oath.

MR RICHARD: Mr Phasha, would you please rise and be sworn.  Daniel.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names Daniel Lisufi Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can sit down.  Yes Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Mr Phasha.
	Mr Phasha, you've heard your brother's evidence and from that evidence we have the impression that you arrived late in the afternoon of the day that the deceased, Madibeng Phasha died, could you tell us what time you did arrive that day?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I arrived after five, that is between 5 o'clock and 6 o'clock.

MR RICHARD: Now why did you come there that day?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: The reason I was there on that day, I received a telephone call from my sister and I was told that Moses had been missing and they are busy looking for him and they haven't yet discovered him.  So I decided to go home to also help.

MR RICHARD: Now as you arrived in the village, what did you find?  Who did you talk to?  What did you learn?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: At first I went home and I enquired as to where other members of the family were.  I was told that everyone had gathered in the chief's kraal and they are having a meeting in connection with the disappearance of Moses.

MR RICHARD: Now did you know that any other meetings had happened, or did you know whey those meetings had happened?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: No, I didn't know, I only came to know that time.  I was told that since the beginning of the week there were meetings.  I only arrived on Sunday.

MR RICHARD: Now when you joined the crowd, what was happening?   When you joined your brother ...

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: When I went to the people who were in a meeting, I discovered that people were going back home to go and eat and somebody was going to fetch the person who knew where Moses was.

MR RICHARD: And who was that person who knew where Moses was?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: When I heard - people were talking, and I heard that it was Makhubelani Moloto.

MR RICHARD: Now what is Mr Moloto?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: He is a citizen and a community member and also he is a witch-doctor, and also he's the chief's witch-doctor.

MR RICHARD: Now when you use the word "witch-doctor", I must ask the first question.  Is there a difference between a moloi and a ngaka?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: There is a difference.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree or disagree with the testimony of your brother Michael in this connection?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I do not quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You've heard what Michael told us about a witch-doctor and a traditional doctor, the one is the bad one and the one is the good one.  You've listened to that evidence, do you know agree or disagree with that?  If you agree I don't want to hear everything about that again, if you disagree then you can tell us.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I do agree because it is true, there is a difference.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: So Mr Moloto, is he a ngaka or a moloi?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Moloto?

MR RICHARD: Moloto, yes.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: A witch-doctor.

MR SIBANYONI: Ms Interpreter, he's using the word ngaka to refer to a traditional healer, and he doesn't use the word ngaka to refer to a witch-doctor.  That is why there is such a confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, I won't correct the interpreter, I'll just continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it seems as if the chief was using the good one and the ones that were doing the evil stuff are the bad ones.  So we're talking about the good one now.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	Now to go quickly, was Mr Moloto called to the chief's kraal where there was a meeting, and did he get there?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: He was called, but he didn't come according to my knowledge.

MR RICHARD: So since he didn't come, what was done about it?  Was some other ngaka consulted?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: After it was realised that he didn't come the community was angry, they left the chief's kraal and they talked to Mr Mashyani Phasha, because he was the one who had more information on the person who had disappeared and also he had more information as to what happened.

MR RICHARD: And what happened as a result of that discussion with Mr Mashyani Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: When they left with him to his house they wanted him to point to them as to where the person who had disappeared was.  I realised that the community was angry and probably things can get out of hand, therefore I joined those people who left with Mr Phasha.

MR RICHARD: And where did you go?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: To his home.  When we arrived in his house he started to be doubtful, he didn't want to point to these people as to where the person was, that's when I stopped the crowd and I started speaking to him.  I explained to him that I didn't have more information since I wasn't at home.  I explained to him that the reason these people were there, they wanted to know as to how the person had disappeared.  They wanted him to point out to the place where they can discover the person who had disappeared, but then he didn't know exactly.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Mashyani Phasha point out anyone else who might be able to help the crowd identify who knew where Moses was?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, if I remember very well, on that day a certain man asked something and this person was the leader of the Youth League.

MR RICHARD: And did this leader of the Youth League ask?