Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: Had you heard that shots?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Have you seen where Scorpion was shooting?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not forget the immediate stage.

MR PRIOR: Was that, that person running away as well?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Which one?

MR PRIOR: The man you eventually shot in the back of the head.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Was he running away?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The time they were shooting him?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, they were chasing him.

MR PRIOR: And shooting him in the back?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were chasing him, I don't know where they shoot him.

MR PRIOR: So, when you then paid attention after you had looked at the bakkie you went to where Scorpion was, and the others presumably, and the man lying on the ground.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Why did you then put your rifle at the back of his head?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was making sure that he was dead.

MR PRIOR: Because he was still living?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know.

MR PRIOR: Then why was it necessary to shoot him in the head if he was dead?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was making sure.

MR PRIOR: Was that with a R4 rifle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And as you put it you blew his head, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And then what did you do?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I call on my Comrades.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, was this now the attack was over, this was, did you regard the attack as being successful?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now you had to retreat?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Why didn't you simply as you did in your training, on the two previous occasions, simply run away or move away on foot?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We decided to use the car.

MR PRIOR: You decided to obtain a vehicle by force, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not by force.

MR PRIOR: And that when the teachers came on the scene?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And there was dead bodies lying on the roadway, and you were with fire-arms, and then you obtained their vehicle and you shot at the other person in the 4 X 4?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I didn't shot at the person.

MR PRIOR: But ordered that he be shot at?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I ordered.

MR PRIOR: And you could see he was, what, a white man, black man ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was a white person.

MR PRIOR: And why was he to be shot?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Because he was a white person.

MR PRIOR: Not because he was blocking your way?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not because he was blocking our way.

MR PRIOR: But, you never pursued him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We never pursued him.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I decided not to pursue him.

MR PRIOR: Why not, he was your target?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was the question of time.

MR PRIOR: But you were going in the same direction?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He reversed his car so we going the same direction.

MR PRIOR: You could have followed him quite easily and killed him, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That was not part of the plan.  I decided that we withdraw.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you will be some time, will you?

MR PRIOR: ...(indistinct) I need to canvas, I need to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we will be sitting, we started very late today.  We will be sitting late, what time?

MR PRIOR: I'm in the hands of the Committee, up to the translators as well, the jail has no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: The jail has no problems, then I think we should take a short adjournment now.  The translators have been working very hard for a couple of hours or more and we will take a short adjournment of 15 minutes, no longer than 15 minutes and then we'll then carry on till we reach a suitable stage.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, will you all please rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For the information of members of the public we intend to adjourn at 17h00 this afternoon and to commence at 09h00 tomorrow morning.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Dolo, I refer to paragraph 11 of your affidavit, page 3 of bundle "B".  You said:  "The other occupants were not there."  That's after you had found the driver you say of the taxi, and a white woman dead.  "Scorpion saw them and he gave chase and he shot one, and I shot him.  The other one disappeared."

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So what do you want to know?

MR PRIOR: Are you saying there were four people that were initially travelling, sorry, there were four people that had been attacked on that occasion?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was the fourth person the person you tried to run down?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That you referred to in paragraph 12?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Well, why didn't you simply shoot him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not having a gun.

MR PRIOR: Well, you had your R4?  Why did Kleintjie shoot him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I tried to run on him and I stated in my affidavit.

MR PRIOR: He was on the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was not on the road, he was just next to the road.

MR PRIOR: And you, well, he was running alongside the road.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was not running alongside the road.

MR PRIOR: What was he doing?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was making a hiking.

MR PRIOR: Was this someone else?  You see, on our information, Mr Schroeder and Mrs Brummer were travelling from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit.  They were shot at, they left their vehicle.  Mr Tsemane came along and picked up Mrs Brummer, leaving Mr Schroeder behind.  You then shot at that vehicle, Mr Tsemane's vehicle which then left the road and went down off the bridge.  There was no fourth person.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There was a fourth person.

MR PRIOR: Was he just someone else that was just hitchhiking along that piece of road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There was a white person as we were approaching Herschel who was making a hike, hiking through us.

MR PRIOR: Oh, I see, this was on, this was someone who wasn't in the bakkie?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm not sure about that.

MR PRIOR: But he was some distance away from where the bakkie had left the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I see.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, sorry, Mr Dolo, I understand amongst many people this is a very common way of speaking when a person is speaking to show him that you are listening and you are following him and you just keep on saying "yes, yes, yes".  I think you can end up running into problems with that.  Do you hear what I am saying to you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I understand.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo, I just need clarity, because the situation might become confusing.  So this person that you refer to in paragraph 12 was a white person hitchhiking, but he was a distance away from where the attack had taken place?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's what it is.

MR PRIOR: Well, and he wasn't injured.  You simply tried to run him down, and he moved away or ran off and you left him.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, that's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I just, I may have originally been responsible for this.  Was this the fourth or the third person, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: I understand from the witness now there was a fourth person.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  It says there was Mrs Brummer, there was Schroeder who was shot by the two of them, and the other person disappeared.  Where does the fourth one come in?  If you look at paragraph 11 of his affidavit.

MR PRIOR: In paragraph 10 he says:  :We found the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so that's one occupant.

MR PRIOR: It's two.

CHAIRPERSON: The driver of the taxi is the person who picked her up.  It's not the person ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: We are talking about people on the scene, Mr Chairman, at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were talking about who came out of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: It says the other occupants were not there, occupants refers to two others.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.