Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed with this matter now?  Can we carry on with number 8 then.

MR NDOU: I'm going to call on Mr Matelo, I'm just looking through his document.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you call Mr Matelo to the front please?
	Mr Matelo, are you aware that this is one of the Panels of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: This is one of the Panels of the Amensty Committee?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you are Mr Nemulodi?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON: You have made an application for amnesty?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It involved an application in respect of the murders of a number of people including Mrs Masithi.  Your application was enrolled on this session?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not pitch up on Monday.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And people had to go and look for you to tell you we need to see you.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive notice that this matter was going to proceed this week?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I got it today.  So now today I am here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay then it's not your fault.  Do you want to proceed with this application or what is the position?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou you haven't ...(indistinct)

MR NDOU: ... notice yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nemolodi, will you be seated and wait for Mr Ndou please.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes can we carry on with Mr Nemotelo?

MR NDOU: Thank you.  Honourable Chairman, Honourable Members, I'm calling applicant number 4289/96, that is Mr Nemotelo, Alfred Kangale, may the witness be sworn in please?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Matelo, you brought an application before the Amnesty Committee.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

MR NDOU: In respect of which offences have you brought this application?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: In the case of murder.

MR NDOU: Murder of who?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I have killed a person, I forget the name but the surname is Gumant.

ADV DE JAGER: There is an indictment on page 12.  He was found guilty on both charges and sentenced for 18 years, the charges being taken together for purposes of sentence.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

MR NDOU: Now how did that come about that you killed these people.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: This person that I killed, I killed them because when I came back, I came back on pension.  I just sat for a moment, after a long time my wife died.  After she died it was alleged that he is the one responsible.  Then I took it that this witch is the one who gave people of the high official in the government medicine that the government must not be reincorporated into South Africa.

MR NDOU: Okay let's take it slowly.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you want Venda to be reincorporated?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: It is because here in Venda our government was now ruling us in order - there were many things that were happening but not done it well - and then some were ritually killed and if we submit our issue then they were not dealing with it properly.

MR NDOU: I see, how does it come about that you thought that the people these are the people who bewitched your wife?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: It is because in Venda, if a person died we go and want to know what caused this person to die.  Then we find that this person is the one alleged to be responsible for my wife's death.  It is then that ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: I asked you, how did you come to know and you've explained that you approached a bone thrower.  Is that right?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes in terms of Venda, if a person is dead, then we have to go and found out what happened, and then we went to a sangoma who told us that he is responsible for the death of my wife.  On coming back from the sangoma it was very painful because I was told that he's one of the people who's giving medicine to the leaders of Venda so that things cannot go forward, which is happening in this country.

MR NDOU: Now what I want to find out from you, who was the person identified by the bone thrower?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: We were many.  Look I think you know that in Venda people don't want to tell anybody what happened because they were afraid that if they can tell anybody then they will be in trouble.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I ask you, do I understand you correctly.  Your wife died.  You then went to a sangoma and the sangoma threw bones and then pointed out that the deceased, this woman you've killed, that she was the cause of the death of your wife.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Could you please repeat your question?

ADV DE JAGER: You killed a woman ...(intervention)

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: No I didn't lay my hand in the killing but I went there with a petrol cannister.  I just poured petrol, I didn't use my hands and the person died in hospital.

ADV DE JAGER: And this person where you sprinkled the petrol, was that person responsible according to the sangoma for the death of your wife?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: No it's not that person, it's the other person, it's not that person, that person didn't die and then the other person was injured, that is the daughter-in-law was injured.

ADV DE JAGER: I see, so you went to the house, sprinkled the petrol and ...(intervention)

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes there were many inside that hut and the person we were looking for was inside there.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.  So the wrong person died?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes the wrong person died.

MR NDOU: No you've been apprised of the fact that when one applies for amnesty one has got to show a political connection to your actions, is that right?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I understand that.

MR NDOU: How do you connect that?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: That person, what he was doing - they used to take medicine and take it to the government, giving it to the leaders of the government.  That is why that if I do it like this way, then there would be no other person who will take the medicine and give it to the people who are in government.

ADV DE JAGER: Sir I'm a bit worried, I think you went there to kill this person because the person was responsible for the death of your wife.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes it's true.

ADV DE JAGER: And that had nothing to do with politics.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I have explained that in killing her I was trying to eliminate the witches because witches tend to give medicine to the leaders in government.

CHAIRPERSON: If your wife was not dead or your daughter was not injured ...(indistinct)

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: But then I would not be knowing that she was a witch and I did it like that because that makes me to know that she is a witch, that is why I did it like that and because she was one of the people who gave medicine to the people who were in power and preventing the Venda Government to be reincorporated into South Africa, then I decided to kill that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright let's forget about the politics in that sense.  When did your wife die?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: She died in July 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know any witch in June 1990, anybody that was a witch?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Since I grew it was known that there are witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't avoid the question. Did you know any particular witch?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes there was another person who used to take people and turn them into zombies.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, you say when you went to see this person, this deceased Flora, you did so because she gave medicine to government officials who were corrupt, etc.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I've said, when I killed this person, I killed her because these witches including witchdoctors, they give people in government - I think if I killed them ...(intervention)