Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Yesterday we concluded the proceedings with Mr Hlongwane's evidence and today we will be commencing with another witness. Mr Stewart, just for the record I notice Mr Wills is not there. I have been informed that he says that we can proceed in his absence and he will be here shortly.

MR STEWART: That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I call Zheli David Dlamini.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Dlamini would you stand so as to be sworn in? State your full names? Are you David Zheli Dlamini?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes for the record Mr Dlamini is the third applicant. Yes Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini your surname is spelt differently in different parts of the papers. Is it right that its spelt D-l and not D-h-l?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes it is dl.

MR STEWART: Is it Dlamini?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini were you born on the twenty 21st of September 1969 in Pietermaritzburg?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: That makes you twenty eight years old if I calculated correctly?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And to where did you subsequently move where you received most of your schooling?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I studied at Mpumalanga in Hammersdale.

MR STEWART: And (...indistinct) completed your schooling up till standard eight in Hammersdale?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Will you explain briefly how you came to join Inkatha while you were schooling at Phezulu High School?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: While I was at school there would be times when they had to teach us about the IFP. That is when we were taught about what Inkatha was and what its duties were. All the policies of Inkatha were taught during these days that is when I joined Inkatha. It was then a cultural organisation.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) a Mr Zakele Nkethle of Inkatha at Mpumalanga addressed you when you were part of the Inkatha Youth League?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: What was the relationship between Inkatha and the UDF at that time in Mpumalanga?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Inkatha and UDF at the time were not in good terms but they were not using guns as it is done today. They used knives, stones, petrol bombs and these other things. But guns were not used at the time.

MR STEWART: And did you become involved in that fighting with those weapons you have described between Inkatha and the UDF?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes, there were incidents where I was involved but that was just beating each other up and nobody died at the time. That was just pelting stones at each other.

MR STEWART: You say in your statement that in February 1986 you were approached by Zakele Nkethle in connection with joining the KwaZulu police force. Tell us briefly about that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Mr Nkethle was a member of the executive committee of Inkatha cultural organisation at the time in Hammersdale. He was a prominent leader. He then came to schools. I was also a prominent member of Inkatha at the time. And he came to school and requested me to join the KwaZulu police force. I agreed and I left school, that was in 1986. That is when I went to join the KwaZulu police. He then told me that I should be at home. There would be a car that will come and pick me up to join the police in KwaZulu.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) that car then take you to a camp called the Shlongwane Camp at Ulundi in due course?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And who was in charge of your group there at Shlongwane? Was it a Mr Khasebe?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes it was Mr Khasebe who was in charge of the camp.

MR STEWART: And what was explained to you about why you were there?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: It was explained that we were going to join the KwaZulu police force and that is all. And after that we did physical training such as gyming and Inkatha lessons were also taught.

MR STEWART: And then when you left there Mr Dlamini, where did you go to?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: From then we, Mr (...indistinct) came and he told us we would go t training for the KwaZulu police. Kombis and cars came to pick us up and dropped us at Ulundi airport. We took a flight and the flight travelled for a long distance. It landed at some bush, a place that I cannot describe. Because I still remember very well we left Ulundi at round about two but the flight landed in the bush.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) in the Caprivi?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I did not know at the time. I only knew now that we had been to Caprivi.

MR STEWART: And at Caprivi you trained in certain forms of training, is that right?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Who was training you?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: On arrival at Caprivi I discovered that there were already people there. And we underwent the training. One person that I still remember very well was a white person called Kevin Kloppies, people like JJ. I cannot remember others because there were quite a few. They trained us in different things.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini do you now know that those people who were training you were soldiers from the South African Defence Force?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No I did not know at the time. I only discovered during the course of time who these people were.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) now know that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes now I know that.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) and that the group of people that was trained was divided into different groups. Which group were you in?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I was in the offensive group.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) offensive group?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would like to explain and expatiate here. This offensive group was charged with guns, explosives, all sorts of guns, hand grenades, RPG's, RPD7, rocket launchers. Those are the kind of guns that this group dealt with. And they also taught us to shoot. For example if a person wanted to go and attack at a house, how to get entry. Because there was a house structure that was built and they taught us how to gain entry into the house with an aim of shooting. All of these are things that we did.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) were you also taught about explosives?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And hand grenades?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: You subsequently had a passing out parade before leaving the Caprivi. What was it that you group had to demonstrate at the passing out parade?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: We demonstrated on what different groups were doing. We also demonstrated on what we as a group were also doing as to how a house is attacked, what the firing movement is, how explosives are used and all of these are things that we did during the parade.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) was it in the nature of police training or was it in the nature of military training?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No we realised as time went on that we are not necessarily police but soldiers.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) did you meet Mdlanduna or Mr Luthuli, who is one of your co-applicants?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) drill there?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: He was a political commissar, our political commissar. He was a person giving us lectures in politics.

MR STEWART: Were you taught who your enemy would be that you, against whom you would have to use these skills that you were learning?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct. We were told that our training was meant to protect IFP leaders against the ANC. In other words the fight was against the ANC.

MR STEWART: And did you believe that there was this fight against the ANC?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you paid during that time of your training?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes we were paid?