Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

MR KAHANOVITZ: I want to put to you certain examples about the degree of caution that you in the CCB exercised in relation to the selection of your targets.  Evidence has already been led that a plan was approved to burn down a printing press that didn't exist.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you're telling us that all reasonable precautions were taken to ensure that the intelligence that you received about that printing press was accurate and reliable.

WOUTER J BASSON: It is correct, I cannot recall specifically what I discovered regarding the printing works, I don't know if I specifically went to a person and discovered this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No but I mean we must infer from the general nature of the evidence that this went through the intelligence structures.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I would assume so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they came back and they confirmed that this printing press existed and it was a legitimate target.

WOUTER J BASSON: I would assume so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We also know that money was then paid to burn a printing press that didn't exist and that Van Zyl left the CCB hierarchy completely in the dark as to the fact that money had been paid out in these circumstances.  You'll recall his evidence was
"I didn't tell Verster that we'd been duped."
Remember that evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I recall that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And the CCB would have been none the wiser about this fact until, it would seem, the time of the Harms Commission when Mr Verster said in his affidavit, he revealed for the first time that the CCB had been duped.  You agree with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  So this intelligence and verification system was for several months unable to ascertain or to discover that money had been paid out for the burning of a non-existent printing press.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then we also know that money was paid out for the burning of a kombi which was never burnt.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And the intelligence structure never drew it to the attention of anybody that this had occurred, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We also know there was a plan - and this is what Mr van Zyl was told, Mr van Zyl was told, and he says so in terms in his affidavit, that
"There existed a plan to murder someone by the name of Michael Evans."

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it's Gavin Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I know you say that.  Mr van Zyl says that the first name of the person that he was told to kill was Michael Evans.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I think that Mr van Zyl confused the names, he thought it was Gavin Michael Evans but it is not two persons.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl made this affidavit in its original form while he was in Section 29 detention and then this affidavit that we have here was the one that was settled by senior counsel and handed in at the Harms Commission.  At the time that he deposed to that affidavit he was still under the impression that he'd brought his operatives up to Johannesburg to assassinate somebody called Michael Evans.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

WOUTER J BASSON: His interpretation is incorrect, it was not Michael Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now we know that Michael Evans and Gavin Evans were brothers.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We know that Gavin Evans' second or third name is not Michael, there was no scope for confusion there, we know that both bothers were involved in political activities, how is it conceivable that Mr van Zyl could even have gained the slightest impression that his target's name was Michael Evans.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know, Chairperson, I don't know why he says that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can we just picture the scene.  Mr van Zyl must now sit with, I forget if it was Peaches or Gakkie, and explain to them who it is that they must go and stab and he must give them the name of the target, the intended victim, one would imagine there should be no doubt whatsoever in Mr van Zyl's mind what the first name of the victim is?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct and there was also an available photo at that point.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yet it appears that Mr van Zyl was very confused.  In fact, you'll recall your evidence has also been that notwithstanding the fact of this 9 inch print-out, you didn't know where Mr Evans lived.  Remember your evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I think there was an address but ten to one it was an old address or something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but what your evidence came down to was the following, you said you didn't know his address, Mr Maree was tasked to find his address.  He took several months to come back because he was busy on other projects.  Remember?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then these people were brought up to Johannesburg and what Mr van Zyl says is that they were given the wrong address.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know whether it was the wrong address or an old address.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Either way it's the wrong address, the man - Mr van Zyl says
"They couldn't find their target because the information about the address was wrong."
Are you still suggesting that the CCB was acting on the basis of accurate and reliable information?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, if you have information and you ask somebody to confirm it and he does so, then you would accept his word.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then there was also a plan to kill somebody by the name of Bruce White, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: There was not a specific order, there was an order to gather information on him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  You were doing reconnaissance?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In the light of a possible subsequent plan to murder him.

WOUTER J BASSON: It is possible, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It turns out the man's name is Roland White.  Wish to comment?

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know, is it the same person?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I don't know, you tell me.

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm under the impression that it was a Bruce White, that was the name which was on the list along with Gavin Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, because the only person who - you were targeting him for EC, End Conscription related activities?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I cannot recall what his activities were.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I think this might be an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before lunch, as far as you can recall, Mr Basson, was there only one project relating to a Mr White, whether it be Bruce or Roland?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, there was only one and it was Bruce White, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WOUTER J BASSON: (s.u.o.)

MR KAHANOVITZ: (Cont)
	Mr Basson, could you please turn to your amnesty application which is at bundle A, page 33.  Let me ask you a general question, you don't need to look at the application to answer this.  You've admitted, you've already admitted in-chief that you and Staal Burger copied each other's statements, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did he copy yours or did you copy his?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, we were led by the legal team or our legal team in the incidents where we were involved together and the applications would be then appear the same and we did it on those grounds, it was not a case where it was mine or his, we were basically led that they would be the same.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you both consulted with your legal representative and the product of that was those two statements?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've also already admitted in your evidence-in-chief that your statement contains the same untruths as Staal Burger's statement.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's true.