Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR MCBRIDE: Just to add, he never asked me for a gun to rob a bank and if - just to add onto what you are asking, one of the questions you've asked an answer now, is that he participated in the burning of Fairvale School as a political act long before he was recruited into MK, or his involvement in the Why Not, almost a year even.  So as far as I know, I know Matthew Lecordier as a political activist.

MR RICHARD: But you do not recall anything where a judge could make a statement
"Even on his own account he wanted a gun to rob a bank."
You don't remember anything like that in the trial?

MR MCBRIDE: No, I didn't say that, I didn't say that I didn't remember from the trial, I said I personally don't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: From what Mr Richard has read out from that extract is that the judge found that
"He was in the terrorism game for money"

MR MCBRIDE: That's a different questions, that's a third question, Mr Richard.  The answer is no, I know him as a political activist committed, perhaps overzealous, but committed.  And you'll have to ask Mr Lecordier about that, because I think the evidence came from him.  As to who put that into his head, that's another question.

JUDGE PILLAY: Do you know where that evidence came from?

MR MCBRIDE: If I remember correctly, Sir, it comes from Mr Lecordier himself.

MR RICHARD: Now you said you remembered Mr Lecordier as an activist before he was recruited.  Let's got back to those days.  When did you first join the ANC?

MR MCBRIDE: Well it depends.  We regarded ourselves as joining the ANC when we started assisting the ANC, that would be 1984/'85.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, there was a ...(indistinct), I didn't hear?  During what year, 198?

MR MCBRIDE: 1984.

MR RICHARD: '84.  How old were you then?

MR MCBRIDE: '84, I think I was 20/21.

MR RICHARD: Now what persuaded you to start assisting the movement?

MR MCBRIDE: Sir, I mean I think all of us in here, in this place, know what persuaded us to fight against oppression.  I mean one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist.  Excuse my language.  I gave you - from the beginning when I read out my statement, I explained to you that I was an oppressed person and that his the reason why I wanted to help the movement, to overthrow racist supremacy in the country.

MR RICHARD: So you volunteered?

MR MCBRIDE: Very much so.

MR RICHARD: Now in what way did you start participating to support?

MR MCBRIDE: I was approached by guys at Alan Taylor's residence.  I was involved in Cosas at that time, giving out pamphlets.  We tried to put together an organisation together with one of the guys, he's sitting there, Marson Sharpley, called Congress of ...(indistinct) Organised Students and the people recognised that we were activists, they approached us to distribute pamphlets.  That was my first political work for the ANC, of which I'm proud.

MR RICHARD: Now who approached you to distribute pamphlets?

MR MCBRIDE: A guy called Bongani.

MR RICHARD: And from what organisation was he?

MR MCBRIDE: He was from ANC, from MK.  He was one of those who died in the premature explosion a few months later at the whites only election polling station.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, is it eventually going to be a proposition that the witness is not a member of the ANC?

MR RICHARD: My next question is ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, I asked a question.

MR RICHARD: My answer to the question is, my next proposition is ex the record at some point you started forming your own cell, own unit.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now I'm not suggesting he was not a member of the ANC, that's not ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: I've got no quarrel with your question or with your proposition, I'm just trying to follow your questioning in questioning his credentials.  But carry on then if that is your attitude.

MR RICHARD: Now from the time period that you assisted the MK in distributing pamphlets, to the time that you started forming your own cell, how long was that?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember.  That's why I say between '84 and '85.  I can remember the first approach was in '84, and it was some time after Gordon had left the country.  That's how I remember it.

CHAIRPERSON: Be a question of months.

MR MCBRIDE: Between when and when, Sir, I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Between the time that you started just helping and the time that you started forming your own unit.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And during the period that you were, as you described it, forming your own unit, the Fairvale School arson incident happened.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct.  I just want to elaborate so there's no misunderstanding.  The unit was formed as per instructions by the ANC in it's pamphlets and on Radio Freedom, which we listened to regularly.  So it was as per instruction of the ANC to all patriots, or those who regarded themselves as patriots.  And the answer to the other question is yes.

MR RICHARD: Now you mentioned that Mr Gordon Webster was overseas.  Now when did he come back?

MR MCBRIDE: My recollection is either end of September, end of September/beginning of October.

MR RICHARD: Now when he came back, did you know where he had been?

MR MCBRIDE: I knew before he came back where he had been.  He told me the day he left where he's going.  We were supposed to have left together initially.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, it saves a number of questions.  Now when he came back, that was the event that led you to become a member of the Special Operations group and MK.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did you approach him to join them or did he, or did you just discuss and decide?

MR MCBRIDE: My understanding is he immediately came to Durban.  The first day he came to me.  He left a message for my sister to phone.  He left a message and number to phone and the number was, I think it was his brother's place.  So yes, he came to me.

MR RICHARD: Now at that stage were you familiar with the aims and objectives of the ANC and had been educated and instructed in its policies, by the time that Mr Webster came back and you joined MK?

MR MCBRIDE: There was a measure of education that I received in an uncoordinated, unorganised way, and from ANC documentation, from Radio Freedom, and that's how I learnt it.  The ANC of course, if you remember, was banned and could not really teach us here in the country.

MR RICHARD: Now in accordance with the cell structure and method of operation?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, the ANC gave instructions in its documentation about that.

MR RICHARD: And now that Mr Webster was back he instructed you?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now what did he instruct you in?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember everything in detail now, but it was from when the ANC started, it's various leaders, the policies of the ANC, the change in policy, the move towards armed struggle, there were aspects of socialism and the situation globally in the world, weapons, use of weapons, explosives, military combat work, MCW, secrecy, how to go to meetings, making alternative meetings, how to pick up if someone is following you, detect if someone is following you, how to follow other people, stuff like that.

MR RICHARD: Now shortly after his return, it's correct that you started a number of - you went on one of the first trips to Botswana, is that not correct?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now in all, how many trips to Botswana did you make?

MR MCBRIDE: I think in total about seven.

MR RICHARD: About seven.  And that extended between the beginning of '85 and June '85 - sorry, '86, not '85.  I mixed up the years.

MR MCBRIDE: The end of '85 until the middle of '86.

MR RICHARD: Now what was the longest period that you spent in Botswana?

MR MCBRIDE: Two weeks I'd say.

MR RICHARD: Now while you were in Botswana, what additional training did you receive?