Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, I agree.  The Bisho Massacre incident is well-documented.  It did appear in the Human Rights Violations Committee Hearings and one of the applicants did in fact testify at those hearings about the account of events and the victims themselves did testify.  I do not know as to whether they would be called to testify at this stage but I think, Chairperson, if the matter - if a legal representative had to come in there can be ample opportunity to consult with the applicant and then his application be heard tomorrow morning.  If from this afternoon onwards that opportunity to consult can be received by the legal representative so appointed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it might be that if there is another legal representative appointed for that applicant that legal representative might want to cross-examine the first applicant, I'm not sure, might want to listen to the evidence in chief of the first applicant because it seems to me as if we are able - in fact I'll go over to Mr du Plessis now but he has indicated to us that he's ready to proceed, that he has been here the whole morning waiting for the proceedings to start.  So all indications are that his matter, he can proceed in respect of the first applicant, that one can listen to the evidence in chief, one can listen to the cross-examination of the legal representatives who are present and able to proceed.  It might be that the cross-examination in respect of the first applicant might have to stand down to enable that - the representative to prepare properly.  So would it be fair to estimate that under those circumstances we should be able to dispose of the matter by tomorrow even if we were to now get another legal representative to come in on behalf of Mr Gonya?

MR MAPOMA: Yes I think that will be fair, that will be fair estimation and it's quite a reality that it can happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.  Yes thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr du Plessis, have you got any submissions on this matter before us?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairperson.  It is my instructions by my client that save for the following reservations, namely the opposition to his application, the grounds thereof secondly and thirdly any statements to that effect, we are ready to proceed today, Mr Chairperson, and therefore it's also my instructions to oppose an application for postponement.

CHAIRPERSON: I think as you've already indicated you are from Pretoria, from Gauteng?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have set aside the time to deal with this matter?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I flew down Tuesday afternoon, I spent yesterday in King William's Town and I also went to the stadium as such, to the location, to Bisho and I am ready to proceed, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr van Breda, do you have any response, reply to anything that was raised by the other legal representatives?

MR VAN BREDA: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson.  In short I would just like to emphasise the fact that the date being the 3rd and the 4th February was only given to us on Tuesday the 1st February and it's my submission that no one on such short notice can make the necessary arrangements in time.  Furthermore, an aspect that the Committee has already touched is, to prepare for an application of this nature is not done in an hour or even three hours.  It takes at least six to eight hours to prepare everything.  There are several decisions to be made, for example whether an affidavit should be drawn up, the applicant read it out, whether there should not be an affidavit, the scene has to be visited etc., etc.  So that is why I'm raising this issue is that I cannot see and this has been an instruction from my client as well but I suggested that possibility to him that another legal representative might be appointed, but the problem remains as far as preparation is concerned, that there's not sufficient time and it's further my submission that although Mr Gonya or they have been looking for him for quite some time, he is present and he should also be afforded the opportunity to prepare properly.  It is unfortunate that he could not be located, where he stays now there is literally no means of reaching him and it is indeed correct that he heard from someone else that the Bisho Massacre or that he has been looking by TRC or the TRC is looking for him and that is indeed correct that he contacted my offices on Monday, the 31st, that was in fact the first time that I came in touch with the applicant, but the fact of the matter is the nature of this application is of such it will take quite a long time to prepare properly and even though if another legal representative should be appointed it's still my submission that Mr Gonya should be afforded the opportunity to prepare properly and that will take a lot of time and therefore I was wondering whether this application was in any event, be finalise in one day because from experience these applications take longer than one tends to imagine and we all know that from experience so I don't think from the documents in my possession that this application will be finalised in one day and as Mr Chairperson has said that he should also have the opportunity to cross-examine the first applicant should there be a conflict for example and those are all aspects that I'll ask the Committee to take into consideration when making a decision.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr van Breda.

MR SIBANYONI: The preparations you are talking about is in respect of in the event another legal representative is appointed, not in your situation am I understanding you correctly?

MR VAN BREDA: Not totally, as I said I saw my client for the very first time on Monday and to prepare properly and that's the way I work, I go to the scene always and I haven't had the opportunity to do that due to other commitments the rest of the week.

MR SIBANYONI: This matter was enrolled for November last year.  Was your firm not instructed?

MR VAN BREDA: We were instructed, we could not locate Mr Gonya in order to take instructions and to consult with him because we had to go with him to the scene.  As I said we saw him for the first time on Monday and we even appointed private investigators to try and locate him and it was really a task and my learned friend over there can confirm that, to reach and to get hold of him, so on Monday 31st January was the first time that we made contact with our client.  There's no telephone number for him, nothing at all.

ADV SANDI: Did you write Mr Gonya letters to say that you wanted to discuss the matter further with him?  You know such letters, registered, did you have proof that you had received them?

MR VAN BREDA: Several letters have been sent to him.  I've been informed that he changed address and that's the reason why he didn't receive.  The other problem we have in the local areas, they just don't deliver post there and that's a very big problem we have in the Eastern Cape especially in the Mdantsane area and also in the locations here outside of King William's Town.  I have now a new address that I received from my client on Tuesday but as I say we even appointed private investigators to try and locate Mr Gonya and I can just mention we even made use of the services of the Police as well as the Defence Force in an attempt to contact our client before the last hearing last year when Mr Skeen was still handling the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr van Breda.  We will take a brief moment to consider the application.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION