Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Bar the incident that we are currently busy with, all the other operations that we, or the times that we went out and worked in the field, were legitimate operations, routine operations.

MR NGUBANE: And in spite of your innocence, you carried this throw away guns with you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I did Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Was it the first time that you carried these throw away guns with you, when you had these pistols in your possession?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No Mr Chairman, they were - I had a bag with equipment in the car, and they would just be with wherever we went.

MR NGUBANE: Had you given anyone other than the gentleman who made the application here, Mr McCarter, did you give anyone other than Mr McCarter any of these throw away weapons at any stage?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said earlier Mr Chairman, I handed some of those weapons to some of my ex-colleagues at Vlakplaas.  I don't recall specifically who took or who got or if there were any that were left over that went into the armoury, or what the case was with them.

MR NGUBANE: You didn't give those throw away guns for a specific purpose of a cover up after these people had killed innocent people?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I am sorry, I am not with you, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: When you gave the other people the throw away weapons, did you give them these weapons for a specific purpose of covering up after they had killed innocent people?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not specifically.  As I said in my evidence, that was the purpose I used them for, why I had them with me.  I don't know for what purpose the other people carried those weapons.

MR NGUBANE: But, did you give them as a result of their request or you volunteered?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, I had them and I asked who wanted.  They were available and whoever wanted, took.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly to say that you didn't know of the doings of any other teams at Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, for instance if I was in a team working in Port Natal, I wouldn't know what the other teams would be busy with on the ground, wherever they were working, be it Eastern Transvaal or the Cape or whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never discussed it with one another?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I personally, for instance in this matter, to my knowledge, I have never discussed it with anyone else at Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew of nobody at Vlakplaas who killed people?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I knew of incidents where people had been killed, where terrorists had been shot, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you discover this?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: We have been told, because they were operations that were in the press and prior to that happening, or either they were in the press before the teams came back, or we heard about it from the team.

CHAIRPERSON: And you decided then that you could distribute these guns as throw away weapons?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I didn't decide then to do that.  The weapons were available, I had them and I asked if someone wanted them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you obtained them illegally?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: They should have been destroyed, somebody else was not doing his duty properly, a Lieutenant whose name you said you would try to discover?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Rosslee, what strikes me throughout your testimony here today is the fact that this was your first killing of an unarmed person, and yet you remember very little of the circumstances and I am not talking of the finer detail.
	When you got the request cum order from Taylor, you set it out in your amnesty application, page 24, that he had told you two of the accused in the Amanzimtoti bomb blast criminal trial had been acquitted, but that they were still continuing their subversive actions and that your task was to arrest them for purposes of elimination.
	That was your, that was the basis or part of your amnesty application as of December 1996.  Is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did you fill this form out, did you make that statement yourself or were you assisted by your legal representative?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My legal counsel was with me when I made that as I recall.

ADV PRIOR: And obviously you weren't under stress then, you were relaxed, you were possibly in his chambers or in his office.  You never had anyone pressurising you to recall what had occurred all those years ago, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, it isn't.  This application as I recall and I can ask my legal counsel, was done the night before the amnesties closed.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, there was a sense of urgency in that you had to get your application in before the cut off date?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: True.

ADV PRIOR: But apart from feeling pressurised or coerced or under some form of compulsion, there was nothing of that, you were with your own Attorney of your own choice and you were recalling the events as you remembered them, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct, I do, yes.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree with me then that we can place some reliance then on the accuracy of what you said two years ago, rather than what you say today, because today you don't say much, you basically can't recall much of what happened?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine yes, we could.

ADV PRIOR: All right.  On that basis then, we know that Bhila and Nxiweni had been discharged at the end of the State case, and that was roughly on the 18th of February 1987.  That is common cause, I think you will also agree with that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have heard that, yes.

ADV PRIOR: And about three days later Bhila was then abducted at Lamontville, near the Kentucky.  As a result of an operation involving your Unit, Ramatala posed as a UDF man or an ANC man and we understand that someone was taken out of prison, Bhila was then lured, he was intercepted and then taken into McCarter's custody, your custody, Bosch, later Wasserman and Taylor and Lembede and possibly Mhieza, held at the pistol club?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is, yes.

ADV PRIOR: Now, you also recall in your amnesty application, when you were in a fairly relaxed mood, that he was interrogated and later on, when you shot him, you said the handcuffs were removed and he was thrown over the cliff, so you remember that he was cuffed.  At the shooting range, I should imagine, he was also cuffed?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Under the circumstances, I should imagine, he would have been.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, in the same manner?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: At the shooting range I cannot recall if he was cuffed in front, hands in front or his legs or whatever, but I should imagine he was restraint.

ADV PRIOR: My understanding of your evidence, especially Exhibit B your statement to Holmes, read with your amnesty application, that the purpose of taking Bhila to this remote area where the public really wasn't around, is that correct, that wasn't a place frequented by the public?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, it wasn't.

ADV PRIOR: Was basically to find out where Nxiweni was because your instruction from Taylor was to take the other man out, to take both of them out?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot recall, I recall that there was, two people were spoken about.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, and both had to be eliminated?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: On the basis that Bhila was one, Nxiweni must have been the other?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall the name.

ADV PRIOR: Okay.  I also want to suggest to you that your interrogation of Bhila would not have been a mild form of questioning, it would have been robust.