Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: (cont)
	Now Mr Bokaba, at the end of the proceedings last week we were at the stage where I was asking you to give explanations of how Ngo could have known of your activities, those of Selahla and of Loots and we'll proceed from there.
	During which stage between '87 and 1989 did Ngo approach you and say to you that he wanted to join security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me put it shortly.  I said that it was early 1987, somewhere in February, if I remember well.

ADV MEMANI: Now in that case, how could Ngo have known that throughout the entire period '87 up to '89 Loots was the officer commanding?  Let me put it this way, how could he have known that you were reporting to Loots all the time - that things would not have changed?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I've explained that Ngo could have known because I took him for an interview to Captain Loots.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The point counsel makes is that you took him for an interview in early in February 1987, that wouldn't give him no indication at all that Loots remained in that job in 1988 and 1989, would it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I understand that he could have known Sir, because he knew that Loots was the commanding officer.

ADV MEMANI: Now, on your version, he saw Loots only once, is that correct? And he never saw him again.

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is my understanding.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you do not dispute that the house of Louisa Mbongo was burnt down, isn't it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't dispute that fact Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And you also do not dispute that it was burnt down by Ngo and Selahla?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I dispute that Sir.

ADV MEMANI: By whom was the house burnt on your version?

HENDRIK BOKABA: It was himself, by himself.  I'm not saying it is him, I'm saying there is a probability that it is him if it was burnt.

ADV MEMANI: Why would it be Ngo alone?

HENDRIK BOKABA: He's the one who knows that the house was burnt.

ADV MEMANI: And he also knows that Selahla was present when he burnt the house?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Selahla disputes that Sir.

ADV MEMANI: How can you dispute that Selahla was present when the house was burnt down?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I'm saying Selahla denies that also.

ADV MEMANI: Can you dispute it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know how to answer that question because I'm explaining that Selahla also didn't dispute - he doesn't know that.

ADV MEMANI: As far as you're concerned, do you dispute - do you say Selahla was not involved in the burning down of the house of Louisa Mbongo?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I say he was not there.

ADV MEMANI: How do you know that he was not there?

CHAIRPERSON: He has told us twice that Selahla disputes that he was there.  I take it that's why he says Selahla was not there.  Did you believe Selahla when he said he was - he denied that he was there?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I believed him.

ADV MEMANI: Now, why do you believe Selahla when he denies that he was not present?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I want to object against that question.

CHAIRPERSON: This was a policeman who worked with him as a unit for how many years?

ADV MEMANI: You can say about three Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that a fairly obvious reason why he believes him - they worked together?

ADV MEMANI: I don't think the matter is that simple Sir.  He must tell us, the evidence must come from him why he believes him when he says that he was not present when the house was burnt down.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.  Why ...[inaudible]

HENDRIK BOKABA: I worked with Selahla in Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: Were you with Selahla at all times during '87 to '89?

HENDRIK BOKABA: In many instances I was with him and I believe that if he is called to testify before this Commission, he's going to say exactly what I'm saying - that he was - he didn't work with Ngo and he didn't burn the house with Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: And you obviously dispute that you were involved in the burning of the house?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I dispute that - I didn't burn anybody's house during my work as a policeman.

ADV MEMANI: And did you not dispute that Nono Gint's house was burnt down?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I dispute that, I don't know that.

ADV MEMANI: You don't know if whether the house was burnt down or not?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't that house, I don't know as whether it was burnt.

ADV MEMANI: And you can't dispute that it was burnt by Ngo and
Selahla?

MR DU PLESSIS: But Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't know if it was burnt.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, furthermore the version was not that it was burnt only by Selahla and Ngo but Mr Ngo's version is that Captain Bokaba was present as well, now my learned friend is putting a version which is not even his own client's version.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, may I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a fair objection.  You're putting that it was burnt by two people ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: What I'm saying ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Your client's version is that it was burnt by three people.

ADV MEMANI: It is obvious that he disputes that he was involved and what I'm putting to him is that he can only deny that he was not involved but cannot deny that Selahla was also involved.
	Now, can you deny that the house was burnt down by Ngo and Selahla?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me answer you this way, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this getting anywhere when he says he doesn't know anything about it?  His original answer was he didn't know if this house was burnt down or not.  What is the point of putting more
questions - to try to get what answer?  I don't know?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now you cannot dispute - you do not dispute that Louisa Mbongo was  member of MAYO, do you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know Louisa whether she was a member of MAYO or not, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: And you do not dispute that her house was burnt down as a result of the fact that Nono, I beg your pardon - you do not dispute the fact that her house was burnt down as a result of the fact that she organised a sympathy protest against the burning house of the - against the burning of the house of Louisa Mbongo?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know Nono Gint's.  I don't know Nono Gint's house.  I don't know as whether her house was burnt and again I don't know as whether there was such kind of a protest march.

ADV MEMANI: And this house - these houses were petrol-bombed.  Now, you also do not dispute that obviously, do you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I know - I know nothing about those houses.  Those are the allegations made by your client.

ADV MEMANI: Now ordinarily, houses were petrol-bombed in the course of political conflict, do you dispute that?

HENDRIK BOKABA: May you please repeat your question Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Ordinarily, house were petrol-bombed in the course of political conflict.

HENDRIK BOKABA: May you repeat your question Sir?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, is my learned friend putting that as a fact - is there going to be evidence before this Committee about that?  I object against the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it hasn't been put in the form of a question, it's been put in a form of a statement.  What you've said to him is, ordinarily houses are burnt - it's part of a political ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: And I've asked him whether he disputes that or he doesn't.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Do you say that I dispute that houses were burnt during the political unrest?

ADV DE JAGER: No, he's asking you whether houses ordinarily, were burnt in the course of political unrest - petrol-bombed in the course of a political unrest or do you know of any other cause why houses were petrol-bombed?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Does he speak specifically about the houses which his client alleges that they were burnt of he speaks under general circumstances?

ADV DE JAGER: Under general circumstances.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, houses were burnt under general circumstances.

ADV DE JAGER: Why?  Because of political unrest or because of other reasons?