Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: Now have you forgotten or did you not know?

MR DUBE: I have forgotten.

MR RICHARD: What did the DPSC do?

MR DUBE: I just explained that I do not have information with regards to the activities of the DPSC.

CHAIRPERSON: But again, surely you've told us that you got information about members of your cell.  They had to keep in close contact with one another.  They had to tell one another what they were doing.  How is it you don't know what that young man was doing when you say he was a member of this cell?

MR DUBE: I did say that I was the overall commander and there was an immediate commander of the cell who was responsible for all of that.  I dealt directly with him, except for instances where I had to come and train the cell members.  But in most instances the person who was responsible for the cell was the cell commander.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct) did you have under you in Emdeni?

MR DUBE: Please repeat that.

MR RICHARD: How many cells did you have under you in Emdeni during 1987, precisely, because that is information that you must remember.  It was your responsibility and duty to know how many cells you had.

MR DUBE: I don't remember the exact number, but I can give you an estimation.  They could have been five.

MR RICHARD: Five, and how many members were in each cell?

MR DUBE: Between four and five.

MR RICHARD: Between four and five.  Now how many cells in total did you have under your command?

MR DUBE: I would have difficulty remembering because I did not operate in Soweto only, so it is difficult to respond to that question.

MR RICHARD: Was it five or six or ten or 20, or one or two?

MR DUBE: As I've mentioned before in Emdeni cell members would be between four and five, and in other areas there could even be three cell members in each cell.

MR RICHARD: My question is simple and you refuse to listen or to answer it.  How many cells were under your command.  It's a specific question.  I don't see the difficulty.  Approximately.

MR DUBE: I would have to think about this and actually try and classify areas if you want to know about all of the cells that I controlled.  I could just give an estimation of roughly 20.

MR RICHARD: Roughly 20?  And that's the total number of cells under your command?

MR DUBE: Yes, that would be the cells in the PWV area.

MR RICHARD: So that meant on your basis of four or five members per cell there must have been between 80 and 100 in total that you were working with at that time.

MR DUBE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you were in overall commands as I understand it, but the cells were separate units which had their own commanders.

MR DUBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Each cell had its commander and they operated as a cell, they didn't operate jointly.

MR DUBE: Yes, in most instances I communicated with the commanders of the cells.

ADV SANDI: Yes but the question is, members of these cells, did they know each other?

MR DUBE: No, they did not.  But sometimes it would happen that people from different cells would know one another.

CHAIRPERSON: This would just be by chance?

MR DUBE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard.  Can you just explain one thing.  When the late Sicelo Dhlomo, when his name was proposed as someone who could be recruited to become a member of your cell, what exactly was said about him?  What information were you given about him?  What were the recommendations, in other words?  When the name of Sicelo was mentioned to you as a person who could be recruited, what were the recommendations about him?

MR DUBE: Firstly, it was mentioned that he has political knowledge.  Secondly, that he hates the situation prevailing in the country.  Thirdly, it was said that he could maintain a secret.  They also said that he seemed to be quite a disciplined person who can be recruited into the cell.

MR RICHARD: So we return to the fact that at that time your concern was the activities and co-ordination of about 20 cells consisting of 100 people, and you were the person responsible for their activities.  Is that not correct?

MR DUBE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: If I ask the question if any one of those cell commanders had a situation arise in his or her cell, was it their duty to get in contact with you and to report the matter of concern?

MR DUBE: Yes, it would have been their duty, because he was the person who was in contact with the cell members.  But this did not mean that other cell members did not have the right or could not initiate contact with their commander, the overall commander.  It was difficult for them to contact me, so it would have been their commander who would contact me.

MR RICHARD: Right, now when did you first meet the deceased?

MR DUBE: I do not remember precisely when but it was in 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now what sort of matters would be reported to you as the area commander?  Would you be aware of particular members of your organisation who had been prosecuted in Court, and were convicted or acquitted?

MR DUBE: I gave specific duties to each and every cell.

MR RICHARD: If one of your men got arrested and charged with attempted murder, would you know about it?

MR DUBE: Yes I would have known, because we could communicate.

MR RICHARD: Now would you know that the late Sicelo Dhlomo was acquitted of attempted murder on the 6th of December 1986?  Or am I telling you something new?

MR DUBE: I did say that I was not aware of that.

MR RICHARD: Now later that year, do you know of any further arrests of the deceased, Sicelo Dhlomo?

MR DUBE: ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: Yes I'm saying after 6th December early 87.

CHAIRPERSON: You said later that year.

MR RICHARD: Sorry Chairperson.  After 6 December 1986 into early 87 were you aware of the deceased being arrested again?

MR DUBE: I am not sure.

MR RICHARD: Now, if one of your men were arrested and charged with possession of a firearm, would you be aware?

MR DUBE: Yes, I would knew about it.

MR RICHARD: Now are you aware of any such incidents in Sicelo Dhlomo's life?  Being arrested and charged, convicted, sentenced, for possession of a firearm.

MR DUBE: Before he knew me?

MR RICHARD: During the first quarter of 1987.

MR DUBE: I am not aware of it.

MR RICHARD: So yet again even 'though it was your specific duty and responsibility to be aware, you are unaware that during the first quarter of 1987 the deceased was convicted of possession of a firearm and received a five year suspended sentence.  You've conceded that it was your duty as a soldier  and all the rest to be that aware and to have that responsibility, but you were unaware, in other words you did not discharge your duties.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know him at that time?  He has so far said he first met him in 1987, but he's not sure when.

MR RICHARD: ... corrected on that one.  Did you know him in the first quarter of 1987?

MR DUBE: I did explain that I do not remember the exact date.  I used to work with many people and it is difficult for me today to remember minor and single incidents that happened  a long time ago.  Particularly when you have to question me on things that happened prior to my knowing him.

MR RICHARD: Well, did you know him in June 1987, or October 1987?

MR DUBE: My estimation with regards to the time that I started knowing him would be around May, June, July 1987.  It is not something I'm sure of, but I'm just estimating.

MR RICHARD: Now you speak in your evidence-in-chief of an incident when the deceased was arrested for being in possession of firearms that you gave him, and being released shortly thereafter.  When ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could we perhaps take the adjournment at this stage 'cause I think that this is an aspect that you will probably be following up in some detail.  A short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: (s.u.o.)