Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

MR MAKUBELA: And finally Mr Fourie, in paragraph 28 on page 136 you say that ...(inaudible)  ....(tape ends)

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: ...(inaudible) against the people who wanted to make sure that the election took place, we wanted to stop the elections, if I understand your question correctly.

MR MALAN: The question that Mr Makubela asked you was against who did you forge this battle, you said the people who wanted to make the election take place.  Who was that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The ANC, SACP and the National Party Chairperson.

MR MAKUBELA: Thank you I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKUBELA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie just before I forget.  In an answer to one of my colleagues questions and I do not understand you very well, I don't understand the answer very well, how could you reconcile yourself with something that you did not even know about?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson our people were involved there, I was present amongst those people, what could I do, we were together in this thing and we had to accept it.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that your reason why you accept responsibility for the Bree Street bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if you didn't know it was going to happen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is so Chairperson, I was found not guilty on that charge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he found guilty or not guilty on that charge?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was found guilty.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, I wonder if the Committee could indicate until what time it intends sitting, there are still four of us to come, perhaps if we could caucus we could cut down our cross examination substantially.  With respect Mr Chair to Malan I'm now being railroaded, I would like the opportunity to consult with my colleagues to my left in an attempt between all four of us we could perhaps minimise the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll see how far you get till 4 o'clock.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: With or without the opportunity of consulting with my colleagues?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on until 4 o'clock.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I'm indebted to you Sir.   Mr Fourie you did military service for the then government, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Where were you stationed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was a member of the Northern Natal Command after I finished my service in Ladysmith, it was at 5 SAI, as they called it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were an infantryman.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And how long did this last?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: 9 Months basic training Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And which rank did you achieve there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I didn't have a rank, I was too naughty.  I could have got a rank but I didn't want it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were a Private right through?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was a foot soldier, I worked with mortars, I had training concerning that.  I also had driving training and LMG and things like that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And after that you did camps for about 10 years, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And during that time were you ever promoted?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No when they discussed it with me I wasn't interested.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And then you finished your military service and when was this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: My military service - I cannot remember exactly, but I think I did my military service in '67/'68 or '68/'69, that's when I did my 9 months military service Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But when did you finish in general with your military service, the initial time as well as the camps that you later had to attend?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I think it was 1979.  I did my last 3 months of border service in South West Africa at Angola and there was an argument between myself and some of the officers with regards to the political situation in the country and afterwards when I got back home after the 3 months I received a letter from the South African Defence Force which said that I was no longer needed to do service.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When did you join the AWB, was it whilst you were busy with the camps or not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was during that time, 1977.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That's when you joined the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And how long did it take you to become a Commandant in the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It took me a long time Chairperson, it only happened later, maybe 10 or 11 years after that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Fourie if I understand you correctly, the Wen Kommando, sorry the Ystergarde was the elite?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you were a member of that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And the Wen Kommando was that a military wing of the AWB which was lower in rank than the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I believe that when a person is in uniform he must act with discipline.  Let me put it this way, I was in the Wen Kommando, I was proud to wear my uniform and I believe when a man is in uniform you must portray a good image because people  look at you when you wear a uniform and I worked my way up and I handled it in the proper fashion and later I became Chief Commandant, I organised meetings, I had meetings with people and as far as I was concerned it was important the people could stand together and hold each others hands.  I never proclaimed violence, to me it was unity within the nation that mattered.  As far as I was concerned, as people can testify who served under me at that time, it was important for me to help the poor and underprivileged if you had too much.  People arrived there who we later named braaivleis fighters, they did not carry my approval and that's why I joined the Ystergarde.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes it's about these braaivleis fighters that I want to talk about.  This weekend that the bombs were planted, did the braaivleis fighters also gather at a certain spot?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Are you asking me if they did?  Well the way we understood it in Ventersdorp there would be 40 000 people who would gather there and they are now from all the districts all over the country, their commanders and their men, but I did not say that all of them were braaivleis fighters, some of them would be one of them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If I could just rectify this matter, these braaivleis fighters were they at the game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, no alcohol was allowed according to my knowledge.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And on the shooting range?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Not as far as I know of.  Are you talking about the braaivleis fighters, the AWBs?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I'm using your words, I'm talking about the braaivleis fighters.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Some of them were from the Wen Kommando, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And do you consider the Wen Kommando people as braaivleis fighters?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, like I put it to you not all of them, some of them would be one of them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I'm asking you if there were braaivleis fighters, you said yes there were Wen Kommando's and the conclusion I made was that the braaivleis fighters would be the Wen Kommando.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes the Wen Kommando people did arrive at the shooting range who delivered meat for us to braai, and they were from the Wen Kommando.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did you have a braai?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: On what day was that?