Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I have consulted on that aspect properly with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

UNKNOWN: When the Chairperson asked the question where you found arms from that day, you mentioned the Executive Committee, who were in the Executive Committee?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: At the time the Executive Committee was composed with Oupa Mokwatedi.

CHAIRPERSON: (Question inaudible)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I didn't understand your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked to give the names of members of the Executive Committee and all I said is that please speak slowly so that we can get the names down properly.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Dan Nzeku and Nonqeba.  I can't remember the others.  I've just forgotten their names.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, the gun was  given to me by the whole Executive, because we have discussed this issue of a gun before.

UNKNOWN: (Question inaudible)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not on the 23rd December.

UNKNOWN: When then?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was in 1990.  I remember it was those days when we still had guns with us.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, from my side I have no further questions, thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ncube, did you hold any position of leadership in the SDUs?
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
43	MR NCUBE

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I was not a leader.  I was not a leader.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before the death of David, how long had you been a member of the SDU?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was from 1990.  Just from the beginning of 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was your position in the ANC Youth League?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I didn't have any position.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified  that on this particular day,  this day of the incident, you went to the Executive Committee to report, do you remember that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you report?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the content of the report?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: The contents were that I am now available in the township because they knew us being away from this township.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you need to tell this to the Executive  Committee that you are alive and around?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: There were reasons for me to tell them that I was now present in the township.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Question indistinct)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: When I arrived back  in the township as a comrade I would  not just go around the streets before reporting this matter to the Executive Committee  so that even in  future when I get killed the Executives would have been in a position to bury me together with the help of the comrades.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did  the Executive know that you were at loggerheads or you were  fighting with the vigilante?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, it knew very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And did it know the reason why you were fighting?
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
44	MR NCUBE

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It knew the reason for our fighting.  The reason
for our fighting was that we as the comrades were really supporting the struggle and we wanted the political activists to be free and on the other side the vigilantes  were against such actions.  That is where the conflict started and there was fighting and no negotiations of  any kind took place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You knew well the vigilantes were against political activity.  Is that all?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did the vigilantes at any given moment prescribe to you as to what type of political activity you are or you were to be engaged in?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, they never took initiatives to tell us what political activities meant to them.  They didn't want us to gather together in rallies, they didn't want us to demonstrate in the street.    They didn't want  us to bury  our comrades in peace and in democracy.  They would come  and  disrupt everything.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The vigilantes were some form of a political organisation or movement?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes,  but I don't know you know as Themba,  but there was a comrade of ours  but he  passed away and he requested the leaders of the vigilantes to explain why were they killing the comrades and which political organisation they belonged to and they said they worked with the police.
In other words, they didn't join any  political organisation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... when this was said to your deceased comrades?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I wasn't there.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your own knowledge,  do you know of these
vigilantes as belonging to any political organisation or movement or liberation movement, in your own knowledge?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I don't think they belonged to any organisation. I don't even know of any organisation they belonged to.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you say to this Committee that they were  just a group and had nothing to do with politics whatsoever.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Sir, I would agree with what you are saying as you've put your question.  They were just a group killing the community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you still perhaps venture a ... and say the vigilantes were actually a criminal gang.  Will you agree to that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I would agree to that,  Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And in your position as SDUs, you were actually fighting  a criminal element  within your community and not a political organisation.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We were fighting the criminals.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified that at the time when David was shot, he was in the company of police officers, amongst others,  Konstabel Mkhize, Scarface and others, do you remember that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I remember, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you saw David in the company of these police officers, what came into your mind?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: When I saw this person in the company of policemen attacking me, I thought I was going to be killed on that day, because they were close to me and I thought they now got hold of me.

JUDGE WILSON: How did they attack you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: They got out of 685 yard at the gate, they were
3	together/...
46	MR NCUBE
together with the policemen, and they faced our direction
together with my co-accused and as they were heading for us they jumped the first street and I decided to take another corner with the gun that I had in my hand.   And when they appeared on the corner I fired a shot.  And after shooting the deceased fell and the others turned their backs and  they ran away and I didn't shoot any more.   And when Sgoqo and Maseko pointed their guns at me they realised that mine was still facing them, it was still pointed at them, and  they decided to run away.

JUDGE WILSON: They fired no shots at all.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I only shot once.

JUDGE WILSON: They fired no shots  at all.   The deceased didn't fire any shots at you, none of his party fired at you, is that so?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: They never shot at us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did the deceased give chase to any of you before you could shoot him?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, he chased us for quite a long time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was in your company at the time  when the deceased was chasing you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: At the time when he was facing us, can you repeat yourself?  Are you referring to the question,  to the day when the deceased chased us?  I was together with my co-accused and the other comrades, but some of them had been killed  while we were busy with the funeral proceedings of another comrade and the deceased came to the funeral.  It was a Friday, we were at a night vigil.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Question inaudible)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I am referring to the day ....

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he chase you on the same day?
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
47	MR NCUBE

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, before we could shoot at him he chased us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Tell us, did he chase you on the same day or on the other day?