Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Well, when we questioned her, page 106, second in camera inquiry, we asked her the name
"There were a number of co-accused in the trial, I will mention the names Jabu Sithole.

MRS MANDELA: I do not know Jabu Sithole".
Mrs Mandela says she doesn't know you, what's your reaction to that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: My reaction to that's that I can't answer on her behalf but what I can say is that, well, sometimes you won't remember each and everybody whom you assisted.

MR VALLY: Did you ever appear in court with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I, I...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Surely, come you remember that.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I, I, I, I, I, I don't think so, or maybe I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu, are you trying to play games?  You mean you don't know ...(intervention)

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In fact, I don't remember well whether she did appeared with me in court because by that time I was in prison, and the time I was in prison my - in fact I was so small then the time I was in prison ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: ... the whole prison attitude maybe had an effect on my child, what you call, I can't ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you appear in court?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see people there?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, but I can't remember whether did I appeared  with Mrs Mandela or not, I can't remember that.  That's what I'm trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif, is there a court record that.....

MR VALLY: Archbishop, we've got the records at the office, but I don't - let me ask the last few questions.  There's a statement in Katiza's Journey that you participated in an assault on him by pouring boiling hot water on him.  I put this to you, that you poured boiling hot water on Katiza Cebekhulu towards the end of January 1991, a couple of weeks before your trial was due to start, what's your reaction to that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: By that time I believe I was in Zambia.

MR VALLY: When did you leave the country?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I left the country in 1990.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I just want you to warn this witness that we will consider coming back to him at another inquiry, and at such an inquiry should he persist in, we believe, refusing to answer questions of which he has knowledge, we will seriously consider charging him in terms of Section 39 of our Act.  I've no further questions of this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu, I am instructed, advised, that you will be recalled under a Section 29 hearing, and if you persist in answering in the fashion that you have done, then we will have to invoke the powers that are vested in us.  We are seeking to try and find out the truth, and generally we are doing so with no intention of having people prosecuted, but we have the powers where, if people put obstacles in our way deliberately, then they will have to take the consequences.  You are aware of that?  If you aren't aware of it I'm now letting you know that this is not, as some people think it is, a game.  We are not playing games.  We are dealing with very serious matters, and I would hope that you will consider very seriously what we are about, okay?
 Mr Semenya.

MR MILLER: Sorry, Chairperson, before Mr Semenya starts I seem to recall Mr Vally saying that - asking you to warn the witness because he refused to answer questions. Archbishop, I've not seen the witness refuse to answer a question.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean, I think, actually let's not play games too with you, sir, okay?  I don't want - I'm very patient, I'm very patient, but, when people try to make buffoons of us, I hope that they will realise that there is a limit even to my patience, and your client is playing games, and the fact that I have not intervened doesn't mean I have not in fact been annoyed.
 Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Is your nickname Jarvas?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR SEMENYA: Mrs Mandela says that's how you were called and that's how she has known you as Jarvas, would that be correct?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR SEMENYA: Could you tell us why you refused to give a statement to the TRC?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: What, firstly, in fact, the manner in which the lady who is an investigative officer of Gauteng, Liela Groenewald, came to me at my work station was disliked to me.   Secondly, the lady informed me of the involvement of Mrs Mandela on my brother's death, Sizwe Sithole, of which that thing really hurted me, and then I asked Liela myself, during our verbal interview, that why do you have to say that that Mrs Mandela is involved whilst Sizwe, I don't think Mrs Mandela can do something like that to him.  Her response to me was, don't you know that how Sizwe died?  I responded by saying, no, I've got no knowledge, but what I know is that Sizwe died in prison.  Then she insisted to me that Mrs Mandela is involved then on Sizwe's death, and then you were staying with Mrs Mandela yourself on the date when the abduction take place of Stompie, Pelo and others, on that date she insisted that I was there and the people told her that I was there.  I was surprised to whatever she was saying to me.  I told her that I was not present as I've just told the Commission that during those times it was my school holidays and I had gone back home.  Then she insisted to me to make a statement that during that day I was there and I saw Mrs Mandela assaulting the youths.  Then I had to deny everything, then I told Liela Groenewald that I will make the statement should they call me in the Commission.  That's how I refused to make the statement for the Commission.

MR SEMENYA: In my arithmetic around '87 you must have been about 15?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR SEMENYA: I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif?

MR VALLY: Yes, please, Arch.  I think there's a distortion here, '87 he was 15, we are talking about '89 when he was 17.
 I would like to ask just one or two questions.  I think the witness is really being rather incredulous.  You say you met with Thabisa Mono and Mr Pelo Mekgwe at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Do you know at the time you met them at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house they alleged they were kidnapped?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was not sure.

MR VALLY: You are aware that they have given evidence to this Commission that they were severely assaulted the night of the 29th December?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm not sure.

MR VALLY: That they were carrying injuries at the time?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: At that time I'm not sure.  I think I did reply your question because you did ask me the question.  Then I told you that.

MR VALLY: I'm putting to you as a fact that they were carrying injuries at the time.   What's your response to that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't say anything because I only heard that from you.

MR VALLY: Have you ever worn the tracksuit of Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Can you repeat the question?

MR VALLY: Have you ever worn the tracksuit of the Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR VALLY: So you have worn it?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Give us the circumstances in which you've worn it.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I believe at one stage when - we were going
for a birthday party or something like that.  I don't remember where, but I believe it was a birthday party of the late Helen Joseph.  That's when I wore the tracksuit.

MR VALLY: Did Jerry Richardson give you the tracksuit?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: Who gave you the tracksuit?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I took the tracksuit because there were many tracksuits lying down.

MR VALLY: So you are able to help yourself to tracksuits?