Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-28

YASMINE SOOKA: Before we begin we would like to welcome you here today.   Is that a family member who is accompanying you?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, it is my daughter.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: (s.s.)

YASMINE SOOKA: We normally ask one of the Commissioners to assist you with your evidence and in your case we have asked Mr Hugh Lewin who is here on my right to help you today.

MR LEWIN: Mr Tlale I would like to again welcome you here and also to say a word of congratulation for being the first witness to set off this hearing in Alex.  It is a very important occasion for us and I am sure for you as well and we are very honoured that you have been able to come and join us.  You have much to teach us because what you are talking about goes back more than 30 years.  We are talking particularly about the time in 1963 when you were first detained.  What we would like you to do is to feel completely at home here, to feel completely relaxed.  You are amongst friends and if you could just briefly in your own words tell us the story about what happened to you on that day in 1963.  Why it happened and what happened afterwards.  And then if we could later we will ask some other questions as well.  Thank you very much.  It is over to you, sir.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: In 1963 I was an organiser, a volunteering chief.  I was organising to send the boys out of the country.  I
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took the boys to the station to board the train and there somebody would meet them to take to wherever they were destined to go.   And I parted with them.   The following morning I had to go there again.  When I was just between 12th and (indistinct) I saw a car passing.  And it stopped right in front of me, they opened the door and five white men had firearms with them.  They were pointing these firearms at me.  They asked as to whether I am Isaac.  I said yes.  They said yes we are arresting you.  They were in three cars.  When I got into one of these cars I found these boys in these car.  They asked these boys is this him, they said yes.  They took me to one of the cars.  The boys said we will take him where he is staying at 9.  When they got there they searched my house and they asked my wife as to why did she allow me to roam the streets at night.  He doesn't sleep.  What time does he get home at night.  My wife said he gets home at about nine.  They took me to the Wynberg police station.  When we got there the police paraded and they asked me as to whether they know me.  They said yes, we know him.  Then they said they will take me to Pretoria and they took me there.  When we got there they took me to their army base.  They took me to a guard room.  And they said that they must be very careful, I am dangerous.  They said that I might escape at night.  I must be guarded all the time because I will escape.  As I was there on the third day they took me with one gentleman called Majene.  They took me to the central prison in Kerk Street.  That is where I encountered all the problems.  They interrogated me, they tortured me, they called somebody by the name of Lukes.  They wanted to know whether I know him.  I said no I don't know him.  Then they said he must just
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watch as to what they will be doing to me.  They put this plastic over my head and they tightened it.  They lit something up to 30 degrees.  My bowels started to run and somebody said this man has messed himself.  Majene hit me with something on my head and he took me to the bathroom to go and wash.  That is the end of my testimony.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much Mr Tlale.  If I could ask what happened afterwards.  Because you spent quite a long time thereafter in the hands of the State, did you not?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: They took me back to their guard room and then after 90 days they took me to the Central Prison.  They charged me.  Whilst I was there in Central Prison my wife had sent a lawyer and somebody was there to testify about Lukes Solandle.  They told me that I will die in the same manner that Lukes Smarts died.  They told me that Lukes Smarts was from Cape Town in Guguletu.  I gave testimony in Lukes Solandle's case and I met his wife and children.

MR LEWIN: This was Lukes Smart Ngudle.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: It was Lukes Smarts Solandle.   It was Solandle.  He is the one who died in prison.

MR LEWIN: Mr Tlale from your own experience could you tell us why you think he died or how you think he died.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: He was killed by Gepe, he is the one who tortured us, the white man.  He is Captain Gepe.   He is the one who was torturing us, together with Majene.

MR LEWIN: And that was at the Kerk Street charge office where this was taking place.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, that is right, sir.  Room number 3 upstairs.

MR LEWIN: And do you think that they were going to do the same to you before they took you out?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I was kept because of the diarrhoea otherwise
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they were going to torture me in the same manner.

MR LEWIN: Why do you think they brought him in?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: They brought him in so that he should see, so that he should be scared.

MR LEWIN: And then when you were taken to Central Prison you say you were charged.  Could you tell us what happened then.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I was charged for sabotage.

MR LEWIN: And sentenced?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I went to the Pretoria Supreme Court twice.  I told my lawyer that I was not arrested in Pretoria and I know nobody here in Pretoria.  They transferred my matter here to Johannesburg.  To the judges here in Johannesburg.  And then I was sentenced to 12 years in the Supreme Court here in Johannesburg.

MR LEWIN: And then you served the 12 years.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, in Robben Island.

MR LEWIN: That was in - you were sentenced in '63 so you came out in '75.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I was sentenced in 1964 and I was released in 1976.  In February.

MR LEWIN: No remission.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: No remission.  When I was discharged they transferred me to Kroonstad.  From Kroonstad they transferred me to Bethlehem and then in Bethlehem they took me to Kwa-Kwa.  They gave me a four room, they told me this is my house.  I stayed one month and then I told the Commissioner that I want to go to my children otherwise they must take me back to prison.  Then he called another magistrate by the name of Bede and he asked them to note down everything that I wanted.  They wanted to know whether
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I do have money, I told them no I don't.  They wanted to know how am I expecting to travel.   They gave me a rail warrant and they told me on which day will I travel.  I travelled from the Harrismith ticket and there they gave me a ticket to board a bus at four o'clock to Johannesburg.

MR LEWIN: Were you banned?  Were you issued with a restriction order?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: No, I wasn't banned.

MR LEWIN: And did you come back to Alex?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, I came back to Alexandra.  When I got here I took this letter and took it to the Commissioner's office.  And he wanted to know where was I from.  I told him I was from Kwa-Kwa and he asked me why was I in Kwa-Kwa.  I told him they had taken me there and he wanted me to give evidence testimony that I am from Alexandra.  Yes, I showed him my papers that I was sentenced in Johannesburg.  They wanted to know who did this to me.  They said I was sentenced because I was roaming the streets, I was taking the children and damaging white mens' property.

MR LEWIN: Two last questions from Mr Tlale if I may ask.  How have you been since?  I mean that was 20 years ago.  How has your life been, how has your health been since that time?