Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: What it says is that a mass meeting was planned for the 28th and that the supporters of the party on that day committed a number of violent acts around Johannesburg - streets in Johannesburg, I beg you pardon, in Soweto and around and in its vicinity were blockaded, there were stone throwing and assaults on pedestrians, shots at them, and that according to information people died during the night.
	Paragraph 3, there were roadblocks erected and two houses were burned, shots were fired at Policemen manning roadblocks, the gist of it is, there was so much violence around in paragraph 3, but more particularly in paragraph 4, from approximately 06h00 Inkatha supporters came into the centre of Johannesburg and began roaming around.  Most of them came by foot from the hostels.  
	The supporters of the IFP moved about in the middle of the city.  Pedestrians were chased and attacked.  Shots were fired from buildings and that ten persons died and 40 were injured.  Eight of the persons died at the corner of King George and De Villiers Streets.  There were 900 Policemen, the Army was deployed.  
	Then in paragraph 6, people were armed with traditional weapons, various AK47s were also noticed amongst the groups.  Arrests for the unlawful possession of weapons were carried out.  The Selby Hostel was searched and a number of weapons were found there.  That is, Mr Chairman, a summary of the events that occurred, and we would submit that this document forms information which we ask you to receive which, taken together with the radio channel 27 and the direct viva voce evidence given, may help you to form a picture of what was happening on the day in question.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  
	That is as far as we want to take our case at this stage, Mr Chairman.  Of course, once we have heard the evidence of the objectors or other evidence that may be led by their legal representatives, we will ask you to - we may ask you to hear further matters.  Have I given you the page 275?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: 275 in bundle "B", yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I've numbered this ...(inaudible)

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

GEORGE BIZOS: To declare Johannesburg an unrest area which would have conferred certain powers upon Police Officers and other emergency ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

GEORGE BIZOS: It was done and there is a Government Gazette attached.

MR DORFLING: Chairman, members of the Committee, just in response to the memorandum that Mr Berger prepared, the fact that we didn't reply to what he has said, does not mean that we agree with what he has said, we will in due course respond formally to that.  I may just indicate to the Committee that there are a number of things which we most definitely do not agree with, for instance where ballistics experts said it could have been a certain firearm from a certain position, it then becomes a fact that it is such a weapon fired from a certain position.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed, I'm just pointing it out and say that in due course we will respond to it, the fact that we don't respond to it now must take that we accept everything that's in that document.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, my position is identical to that of Mr Pretorius, there's a number of points I've already noted, but I would rather at an appropriate time address you more fully on all the points I would like to raise.
	Mr Chairman, at this point in time I would like to place certain facts on record.  The matters had been curtailed somewhat by the withdrawal of the applications by two of the applicants at the time when they were to be called.  Earlier in the week I had certain discussions with Ms Patel with regard to who should be called and which witnesses should be subpoenaed.  At that point in time we did not foresee that we would need more than one or at most two witnesses to possibly give evidence in these proceedings.  
	We then started to try and secure the presence of at least two such witnesses, we tried to secure the presence of Mr Diaz, that of Mr Stevens, that of Mr Potgieter, which I've already yesterday indicated we couldn't secure.  We thereafter also tried to secure the presence of Sergeant van Reenen.  Sergeant van Reenen is however of the opinion after he obtained some legal advice that he would like a formal subpoena, that he would like sufficient time to prepare, and that he's not prepared to give his evidence at this point in time.  Earlier this week when we didn't sit because of one of the learned Commissioners not being available, we had a meeting amongst the legal teams of the objectors and we at that point in time decided that the witnesses that could now called, should first of all be the independent witnesses who has got no specific interest to either one of the parties involved and that's why we endeavoured to try and get hold of these witnesses.  
	At this point in time as far as the objectors are concerned, the individual objectors who we envisage we might call are but a few in number.  The position with their evidence is that they are not going to be of much assistance to this Committee with regard to putting a proper picture before the Committee as to what happened.  They're unsophisticated and uneducated people and we decided amongst the legal teams appearing on behalf of the objectors that we want to first call the independent witnesses to place that picture before the Committee to give the globular picture before individuals are being called as objectors who can't give a full perspective of what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to tell you that it's a pity that you've taken such a decision without consulting us.  This meeting has been assembled at a considerable expense and such witnesses as are available, we would like you to proceed with them.  The fact that your witnesses are unsophisticated and so on is hardly a reason.  They're going to give an account of what they did, where they were at the time and so on, how they were attacked and why that happened.  Whatever the independent witnesses may say or not say cannot have a bearing on the acts of the individuals that are concerned and I would urge you to proceed with the - by calling the witnesses please.

MR DORFLING: I understand the position fully, Mr Chairman, right at the outset at the time we had meetings concerning, or prior to the commencement of these proceedings we made our position quite clear, we on record by indicating that we would like the independent witnesses to give evidence.  At that point in time it was indicated to us that the Committee would revert back as to whether the Committee would themselves call these witnesses or not.  It was then indicated that we must make the necessary arrangements ourselves to get these witnesses available, that was indicated to us ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that your independent witnesses some of them will not be available because you couldn't trace their address, some of them not available for other reasons.  You knew that a long time ago, at any rate you knew that during these proceedings.  Now that is no reason why you can't call your witnesses to give evidence.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect, Mr Chair, the indication that we should secure the presence of those witnesses was only given by the Committee early this week at one of the gatherings we had out of this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But we gave you no indication in any case at any stage that we are going to be ones that would call witnesses.