Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, when I was asked with regard to the entry in my diary, there was a dash under the entry mentioned by Mr Kahanovitz and there was written "G Evans".  At that stage I wasn't hundred percent sure that the statements were related, I couldn't remember and that's why I denied it, but today I admit that it did relate to it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You'll agree with me what you told the Harms Commission here is directly in conflict with what you now say in your amnesty application?

WOUTER J BASSON: I just told you it is so.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, but perhaps we can just - I think the initial statement was that on this page the witness denies that ever was a project on Mr Evans, so that's not so.  I don't read it anywhere on this page.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well he doesn't qualify - you see the next question is
"What is this entry about, about G Evans?"
he doesn't go on to qualify his evidence by saying "Look there was in fact a project to assassinate but this entry doesn't relate to that project."

MR P DU PLESSIS: No, I'd agree with that but if we take the evidence about the initial project which was stopped and then later on there were enquiries again, it does to a certain extent tie in with what he said here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: With respect to my learned friend, the version that there was no project on Evans is entirely consistent with the version that he was attempting to put forward at the Harms Commission, namely that the CCB does not engage in internal assassinations in South Africa.

MR LAX: What does "uh uh" mean?

WOUTER J BASSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: What do you mean to say by saying "uh uh"?

WOUTER J BASSON: I asked for privilege for these actions, these events, and it was purely with the cross-examination where the evidence was related to the entry about Grosskopf.  I couldn't remember at that time whether it was related and I answered it as such.  I just couldn't remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But the evidence that you're giving now, attempting to explain why you gave your evidence in that way at Harms, can't possibly be true because subsequently when you come to prepare your amnesty application, the singular most important reason that you give for targeting Evans is because of his alleged relationship with Grosskopf.  So it could hardly have slipped your mind at the time.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know, it could be true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now at page 1190 you're asked about the diary entry, this is down at round about line 22, your diary entry of 29 August which says
"Get limpet"
and you're asked:
"Is it a limpet mine?"
and you say:
"That's right"
then you're asked:
"And what is that entry about?"
your answer is:
"Unfortunately I cannot remember, it happened too long ago.  I can only think that it was one of the projects - it was possibly one of the external projects."
and then you're asked on the top of the following page:
"Is it related to the bomb explosion in Athlone two days later?"
and then you say:
"I think that question would incriminate us at this stage."
Right.  Now that entry obviously does relate to the limpet mine that you obtained for the Early Learning Centre.

WOUTER J BASSON: It's completely correct, Chairperson.  I couldn't remember the dates because there are also entries in my diary relating to limpet mines for external use.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr Basson, you knew exactly what you were being asked by Mr McNally there, because the explosion at the Early Learning Centre was two days later.

WOUTER J BASSON: When Mr McNally put it to me that it happened, that the explosion took place two days later, then I remembered that it couldn't have been for an external project and I said that I didn't want to answer the question.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Limpet mines - I see in your diary this wasn't - you're correct in saying this wasn't the only limpet mine you obtained.

WOUTER J BASSON: That was the only limpet mine for internal use.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So the other limpet mines referred to in your diary, relate to external projects and you don't want to tell us about those?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what are dummy handgrenades?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, if you can refer me to the entry in the diary, I can - are you asking in general?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.

WOUTER J BASSON: I think in Afrikaans it's a "proef handgrenaat", or a "opleidings handgrenaat".  It's a handgrenade which doesn't detonate and cause shrapnel.  This handgrenade was used only for practice purposes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What happens after you pull out the pin?

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm not sure, I think there is a pin, it doesn't have the same effect as a real handgrenade and it is not linked to explosives, so there is a sound but the handgrenade itself has holes drilled into the handgrenade and the gasses which are formed escape through these holes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What need might the CCB have for dummy handgrenades?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I remember one specific case where a member had to be trained and we asked for such a handgrenade and I requested it and I got it.  It was specifically - it was one handgrenade requested for training purposes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Except your diary entry refers to a box of dummy handgrenades.

WOUTER J BASSON: You'll have to show me in my diary.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, I'll get there later.

CHAIRPERSON: If it's a convenient time Mr Kahanovitz, I see it's five past one.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, I think this is a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WOUTER J BASSON: (s.u.o.)

MR KAHANOVITZ: (cont)
	Mr Basson, the 31st of August, it's common cause here, was the date of the Early Learning Centre bomb blast, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The 11th of September 1989 is the date of Anton Lubowski's assassination.

WOUTER J BASSON: I assume that to be correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now if you go to page 1191 of the evidence at Harms - has someone taken your file away now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think the file that was being used was Mr Martini's, but he has excused himself this afternoon.  1191?

MR KAHANOVITZ: 1191.
	The short point there is that you gave evidence at Harms that you'd cut out the top part of the page of your diary for the 31st of August, that's the date of the Early Learning Centre bomb blast, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You also gave evidence that the pages from 31 August up to 4 August - no, there must be a typographical error in the record, it's probably the 31st of August to the 4th of September, had been torn out.  Round about line 21.  In either event, it's not crucial.

MR LAX: It does say so, in the next couple of lines down it's corrected as 1st September.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh yes, you're right.  ...(indistinct -no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: 1st of September to the 4th.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: The top of page 31 was removed and 1st of September to the 4th were removed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's correct.
	And you also say that you tore out the pages on the 12th of September and the 13th of September, namely the day of Lubowski's assassination and the day after.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry the 12th and?

MR KAHANOVITZ: The 13th of September.
	Sorry, the day after Lubowski's assassination.

WOUTER J BASSON: It would appear to be so, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And the reason that you gave to the Harms Commission for why pages had been removed, starts at about line 12.  You said
"What often happens is that notes were made and those were then placed on file and in a situation where other pieces of paper weren't to hand, then it simply was cut out and it's placed on the file for later reference, or if other people have to have access to that or to those files then it wouldn't be in my possession the whole time."
and so on and so forth.  Now that evidence wasn't true.

WOUTER J BASSON: It was the truth.