Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

UNKNOWN: But, Mr Mbelo, you have just testified that the Kombi was already safely at the police station.
MR P WILLIAMS OBJECTS

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with all due respect, it is my respectful submission that this sentence is capable, is ambiguous, it is capable of more than one construction and the explanation that the applicant has given is the construction to be put on the sentence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Williams, I have the same problem and difficulty that Mr Brent Williams has.  I only read the statement as meaning that Mr Mbelo communicated the fact that the insurgents were around, because he was of the belief that the insurgents intended to attack the policemen.  I mean, it is quite clear and I do not think it is in dispute.  The whole operation was planned in reaction to the intended attack by the insurgents on the mini-bus, not on the individual policemen.  I read it the same way as Mr Brent Williams reads it and I would have wanted Mr Mbelo to give me an explanation as well.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if I can be of assistance.  I have drafted the affidavit and maybe the emphasis should have been on the people that he saw.  The impression was that it is the people that he saw, he was under the impression that they were the people or they were the group who were intent on attacking the policemen.  So, ... (intervention).
MR B WILLIAMS OBJECTS

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I must object here.  I have a problem with my colleague giving evidence on behalf of his client.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it really take the matter any further?

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, I actually think it does.  I am getting to the point, your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, get to the point.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.
	Mr Mbelo, you will then concede that at the time that you saw these men, there is absolutely no possibility that they were going to be attacking anybody?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: And it is also a common cause that by all accounts these men were unaware of the presence of the other policemen who were concealed in the bushes, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree with me that up until that point that you communicated the presence of these men to your colleagues, there had been absolutely no shooting at all?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that the shooting only commenced after you had communicated the presence of these men to your colleagues?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: Do you not agree that by communicating their presence and position you were, for all intents and purposes, signing these mens death warrants?
MR P WILLIAMS OBJECTS

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I object to the question posed to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if, the question is that the applicant signed the death warrants, it is not the applicant who signed their death warrants, your, Mr Chairman.  The applicant was there, was on the scene for a specific purpose or for a specific mission your, Mr Chairman, and on the scene he fell under a certain command and he acted out of his duty at that time, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be incorrect to say signed the death warrants, they had already been signed.  He sought to bring them into effect.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mbelo, would you agree that you sought to bring into effect the death of these men?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: By telling them these people were there, as a policeman it was my duty to inform that, these people that they have been long waiting for, they are there and if there is an intention to arrest them, then that was the appropriate time.  As my co-applicant has already indicated that Eric had also told him that these men were already there.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mbelo, at this stage we are dealing with you and you now want to convey to the Committee that you thought it was an appropriate time to arrest them.  Do you not agree, you have already testified that the question of arresting these men was, in your mind, absolutely impossible?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir, according to the way we were told, they will be heavily armed.

UNKNOWN: You have already testified that words to the effect of "sweep them",  "eliminate them" were used, which you understood to mean kill them.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Chairperson, it is so.

UNKNOWN: So, you will agree that when you announced to your colleagues that these people were on the scene, you knew that they would be killed, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to what I have heard, it is so.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mbelo, do you agree that those individuals were sitting ducks?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

UNKNOWN: Do you understand the term "sitting ducks", Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I understand.

UNKNOWN: Do you agree that those individuals, when you made that announcement, those individuals were sitting ducks in their position?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told us that you believed they were heavily armed, hardly sitting ducks?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to the plan, I heard that they will be heavily armed.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mbelo, if I understand you correctly, you never said that you saw any arms on those men when you saw them at the intersection of NY3, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is true, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now, can you help this Committee by explaining what your thinking was when you exposed these men to certain death?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: As a policeman, at that particular morning, was to go and wait for these men and we were told to withdraw, because the Kombi had already passed, but as a policeman I had to tell them that the suspects were there.  That was my duty.

UNKNOWN: I want to put it to you, Mr Mbelo, that the only reason why you mentioned that those men were there was because it was your intention, as it was your colleagues intention, to eliminate those people.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to the manner in which they died, I would agree with you there.

UNKNOWN: You further testified, Mr Mbelo, that you went from that intersection around the block and came back to that intersection, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I went around NY111 and re-entered NY1.

UNKNOWN: Can you give this Committee an indication of how long it took you, it may have taken minutes, to round that block and come back to the same position, or a similar position, to where the vehicle is parked, your vehicle is parked, as indicated in the diagram?  Just a rough estimate.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not recall clearly how long it took me.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that it would have been matter of a minute or two, at most?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, that is possible, Sir.

UNKNOWN: So, the space of, to be fair to you, say, three minutes, by the time you reached that intersection Jabu Miya and Christopher Piet were dying or already dead, because they were down, according to your evidence, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir, not Chris.  When I got to the intersection Chris was running and shooting when I get there, but Jabu was already down.

UNKNOWN: But you will concede that moments later he was down as well, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: And this is the person as position D?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: And if we understand your evidence correctly, it must have been moments after you arrived at the intersection that an unarmed Zabonke Konile and a surrendering Mr Mlifie also lost their lives?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: So, would you agree, that by all accounts, in the space of a matter of minutes, four people had lost their lives?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not disagree with you.