Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, just to give comment regarding Zulu's command in Swaziland I can say that up until 1987 he was the commander in Swaziland when he was called out of Swaziland by the ANC because of the fact there was a rumour that he was a spy for the South African intelligence service.

MR VISSER: And in the ANC's statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission dated August 1996 Mr Chairman, you'll find at page 96 in the second column, a list of deaths which were recorded by the ANC and under the heading Natural Causes, presumably meaning death by natural causes and then at page 97 under the heading Zambia, you will find at page 98, number 149, the name of Tami Zulu and a date 14 September 1989.
	Exhibit H goes further and says Charles Ndaba had been deported by the Swazi Police.  Do you know anything concerning that or can you agree that or can you dispute it that that statement of Mr Jones or MK Jones?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I agree with it Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Let's return to your story.  The way you understood it was that the two MK commanders who were in place before for some or other reason they were not there any more?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And it was then that Zandile took over as acting commander if you might call it that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And it that what MK Jones referred to on page 4 of Exhibit H?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And that acting commander is the acting commander of Umkhonto weSizwe?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Natal machinery, that is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What according to your information - sorry Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: You said page 4?

MR MALAN: The fourth page of this Operation Butterfly.

MR VISSER: Yes, they're not numbered Mr Chairman, it's not marked so it you can count to the fourth page under the heading New Witnesses, Richard Valihu, MK Jones, I was referring to that paragraph 1 Mr Chairman.
	What were her activities according to the information which was available to you and members of the security branch in Durban?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, her activities in Swaziland entailed to command the structures of the ANC and the Natal machinery in Swaziland itself.  The infiltration of ANC trained terrorists to the specific target areas in Natal, instructions to so-called infiltrated terrorists, making sure that they have money and weapons and also give them logistic support.

MR MALAN: Sorry, can we just get back to the previous point?
You confirm that Tami Zulu and Ralph Lawrence or MK Fear was arrested by the ANC and detained by the ANC, do you know anything about that or when did you learn about this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I confirm that Zulu was the commander and that he was pulled out of that structure and taken to Lusaka by the ANC, the same goes for Fear.  I confirm that he was detained by the ANC in Lusaka.

MR MALAN: When did you know about this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: After they got pulled out we learned this by means of informers.

MR MALAN: So one should imagine immediately?  Did you know about the ANC suspicions that they were informers?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Do you have any explanation why Ndwandwe was not pulled out considering she was a State witness?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: She was not suspected in her command, I think the period of time we're talking about here is big gap.  She wasn't even a trained terrorist when she acted as State witness.

MR MALAN: When did she receive her training, didn't you say it was in '87?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes '87 and afterwards she was transferred to Swaziland.

MR MALAN: But you said the arrest of Tami Zulu, did you not say that happened in 1987?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes during 1987.

MR MALAN: Well  isn't that the same time Ndwandwe would have received her training?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, she received her training in Angola in the Pango camp and Tami Zulu was in Swaziland.  Certain activities happened under Tami Zulu's command and the information we obtained, that is the reason why he got withdrawn.

MR MALAN: Did you get any information concerning Fear or Tami Zulu by means of your informers or maybe directly from them during that time?  Were they informers?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot confirm that.

MR MALAN: But if they were, you would have known?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If they were informers of mine I would have known, yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, again in order to attempt to satisfy the questions of Mr Malan, I refer to the same statement to ...intervention]

MR MALAN: Mr Visser, I know about that, but you'll also know that there's still a dispute between the ANC and the TRC with regards to findings about the actual facts were and maybe this is information we can use.

MR VISSER: I can just refer you, it's page 72 of the presentation which we've - the whole Tami Zulu case as presented by the ANC as set out.
	And according to your informers, was Zandile still in command over the local people in the Durban area, the local activists in the Durban area?

MR MALAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Zandile, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, you must tell me if you want us to refer to her name Ndwandwe but I thought we agreed that we will refer to her as Zandile?

CHAIRPERSON: Now when did she become in charge of the local people?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We refer to the time when she became commander of the ANC in Swaziland and then she also was in charge of the units within South Africa and specifically in Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: It was from Swaziland?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, just to make it clear, she was in charge of people being brought into the area as well as those who had remained after the Ramlakan arrests, that's as this witness remembers it.
	Mr Botha, can we now specifically arrive at the incident with regards to Zandile?  In your application on page 4 of the newly numbered bundle 2 you gave the dates as the end of October 1988, are you capable of giving us a more specific date or is that the best you can do?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: While making this statement, I had no other documents available to me to get a time closer to the specific date.  As far as I know it was the end of October 1988.

MR VISSER: Now, can you please tell the Committee what exactly transpired, we know what was the general factors leading to the interest of the security branch in her, but can you please now tell us what happened, what you did and who did it?  I'm referring to page 5 Chairperson, of the application of Mr Botha and at the same time I will refer to page 38 in the application of Mr Steyn, not to say that the others aren't relevant, for example that of Vorster's, but I'll look at these two specifically.
	You said in your statement that you've read that of Steyn and Vorster, their applications, and as far as with regards to yourself, you agree with that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And then you gave us the background and you've already explained this to the Committee with regards to the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And her role and her control under the internal fighting units which were responsible for acts of terrorism in your area?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now you also refer to your training, we're not going to go into that again, and you also refer to the fact that the informers in Swaziland was a source of information for yourself and they connected her with acts of terror?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.