Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I did not say that they were waiting for us, but I said they came, they joined because they were all looking for the report-back from the people who were involved in the shooting.  They couldn't stand outside and report.

MR HUGO: So were they waiting for you when you got to the sleeping quarters or did you get there first?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know who arrived there first, but they were also there when the people were making the report-back.  And I was also present when Simon Radebe was doing the reporting.

MR HUGO: I'm very interested to hear what your version is as to what Mr Radebe said.  Tell us.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I remember that he said the mission was successful, but I cannot remember word by word.

MR HUGO: No, Mr Nofomela, this is a serious matter.  What did Mr Radebe say when he reported back.  Think carefully.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot quote him verbally, I did not - I never made a record for that, but the report was that - the essence of the report was that the mission was successful.

MR HUGO: Ja, but did he say "They started shooting at us first and we shot back", or did he say "Well we killed them ...".  Well maybe let me just give you an opportunity to answer.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He did not mention anything about that they shot - the people shot at them.

MR HUGO: Did he say whether people were killed?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Sir, as I've already told you that what he said, I cannot quote him word by word.  That is where I can end, I cannot go further than that.

MR HUGO: And you're now in the sleeping quarters and you're now reporting back to the white members of the police, who were they, the ones that were now listening to this report?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Those who were with me under the bridge, de Kock, Nortje and the others were also present.  Even Vermeulen, it might happen that he was also there, though I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: And were there members from Durban Security Police there, when you were reporting?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not remember seeing them, Sir.

MR HUGO: And what did Mr de Kock say when this report was given to him?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember his utterances, but they left after getting that report-back.  They went to their place where they used to sleep.

MR HUGO: Mr Nofomela, just think carefully, what did Mr de Kock say when this report was given to him?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said I cannot remember his utterances. What is it that I should think of, because I said I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: Was he pleased with the report or was he worried?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It is obvious, because he had instructed people to do something, if the people were saying that the mission was successful, would he be angry?

MR HUGO: I'm asking you what his reaction was and I'll show you in a minute or in a moment why I'm asking this.  Can you remember what his reaction was, was he pleased or was he annoyed?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As far as I'm concerned, he was satisfied.

MR HUGO: Yes, I thought you would say that.  You see  that's why I find it strange that you testified and you said
"Well, after some time de Kock said 'We made a mistake, some people were still alive'".
How could you ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: You did not understand me.  He did not say on that particular day, how would he know that the people were shot at and others were still alive?  That information came afterwards, that some people were still alive.  That information did not come to him on that very same night.

MR HUGO: You see the problem is then they couldn't have said that the mission was successful, could they?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: They mentioned that because they knew that they have done it the right way.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Now let me just put it to you for completeness sake one more.  Mr de Kock's version is that he was asleep when the operatives came back from this operation and he was woken up by Mr Willie Nortje to tell him that there was a shooting incident.  What do you say about that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know the de Kock that you are talking about, but the de Kock that I'm referring to is the one who is sitting here and he is the one who was present there.

MR HUGO: Now your testimony that Mr de Kock later said "Look it was a mistake", when did Mr de Kock say that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He said that afterwards, I'm not sure how many days after the incident, but he made mention of that, "There was a mistake because some people were still alive".

MR HUGO: To whom did he say that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He was telling the people who were involved in that mission, the people who were in our base and he told them that they were about to make a statement, a certain Warrant Officer was investigating the case and he even mentioned the name of that Warrant Officer.  He told them that they should consult a certain white man so that they could make a statement.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And did Mr de Kock tell you that you shouldn't make a statement or did you yourself decide that you were not going to make a statement?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He never approached me to make a statement because he had mentioned that he would later tell who was going to make a statement.  As he did not approach me I thought that since he said to me I shouldn't be in that incident, that is why he excluded me.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Mr Chairman, if you would just bear with me for a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR HUGO: Yes, the weapons that were handed at - I take it this is at CR Swart, if I recall your evidence correctly, what were the calibres and what - just give us a brief description of these weapons that were handed out.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already mentioned that I did not say what kind of firearms, it could have been Tokarev, Makarov, service pistol or anything.

MR HUGO: Well can you say whether these were east block weapons or were they normal South African manufactured weapons?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It could have been anything, I do not know.  I did not look at them.

MR HUGO: And didn't you - weren't you issued with a weapon?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I had my own service pistol.

MR HUGO: Something that I wanted to ask you was, the cars, the vehicles that you were using, were they carrying normal police registration numberplates?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, all the time - all the cars that were used had false numberplates.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I'm almost - I think I'm done, there's only problem and that is, I think I've told you in chambers that I'm also acting for Mr Radebe.  Mr Radebe's downstairs involved in the other hearing.  I would suggest that I would beg your indulgence to consult with him during the lunch hour and just get formal instructions as to his version, in that there might be some issues that I have to put to Mr Nofomela.  But as far as Mr de Kock's situation is concerned, I think this is the cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I think that's in order.  If needs be you can put whatever instructions you have to the applicant, in respect of Mr Radebe.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Shezi, have you got any questions?

MR SHEZI: Just a few, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Nofomela, your understanding of the operation that was to be effected in Chesterville, what was it?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As far as I'm concerned Sir, it was first infiltration and the information that I got from Mr de Kock that I shouldn't be involved because there would be a shooting, it is solely because I was going to be involved in a certain mission.  Therefore he told me, in my view, that those people were going to be killed on that particular night.

MR SHEZI: Alright.  So first it was infiltration and then second was?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Murder.