Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — UNKNOWN

MS BRAAM: Not them, but I'll go there.  I stayed there before several times at the Bronte Hotel and that was - that was sort of thing.  You can there was still sort of stupidity as well.  I mean, it was always difficult with me, you now, how far should I operate, you know, as a chairperson of the Dutch anti-apartheid movement and what were the consequences of bringing me, you know, into safe houses and things like that, you now - what would bring other attention to me.  So I always chose to play the innocent chairperson and go into hotels like the Bronte Hotel as people like I would do, you see, to be very open, but ... (inaudible).  Anyway, so this Dutch delegation was at the Bronte.  I was in the Sheraton.  The conference is over.  People are leaving.  I went - I checked into the Bronte Hotel.  Now, I made the reservations for all these people and for myself from Holland by phone, sort of two weeks before, you see, and, of course, there was this - I came later so that.  Now, let's say it's on a Sunday evening and the conference ended Sunday afternoon last thing, the conference.  Sunday evening I changed hotels.  So I packed my things in the Sheraton.  I took a taxi and I went to the Bronte Hotel.  There I arrived ... (inaudible) ... I don't know, 8, 9 o'clock.  There was somebody behind the desk I didn't know, but it would change, you know.  It happened a few times that there was somebody - a guy I knew, that would say, "Ja, hallo, Mrs Braam", you know.  I mean, they knew me by then, but this one I didn't know, and then they gave me a room and it was, well, I don't know the room number.  It will be possible to find it now.  It was not that sort of important.  I came into the room and I wanted to pack my things and to put my things away and then I opened the closet, you know ... (inaudible) ... this, not open, but -and there were two jackets hanging in the closet.  Now, I've got - I'm sure that they - I was sort of trained by then, you know.  I wouldn't make contact, of course, with strangers, people who would come and talk to me.  I was very careful.  It was absolutely impossible actually to come to me, you know, to come close to me and for that I was very ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: And presumably you were also on extra alert after this bottle incident?

MS BRAAM: Yes, but then the conference had been in between, you see, and that ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: So you, sort of - you weren't thinking about that too much?

MS BRAAM: Not at all and I was very - extremely tired, because that was a few days of hard, hard, hard work and also, you know, I mean, there was some drinking, you know, also.  You know, you could be socialising with people from inside, you know, and then there was a ... (inaudible) ... or something like that and tired I was, very tired.  And what worried me later on is that they must have figured out, you know, that they couldn't send somebody to befriend me, even a woman.  I know they've tried that before and they've tried a woman, you know, with a sort of double face who presented herself as a nice friend, and so on.  That was in, say, half a year before in this - what is this hotel - in the Lusaka hotel - Ridgeway Hotel.

DR DANIEL: Ridgeway.

MS BRAAM: Yes, half a year ago ... (inaudible) ... and I was sitting with Joe Slovo.  She came to the table and said, "Oh, I can't believe it", you know, that sort of thing.  "You must be Joe Slovo, you're Connie Braam.  Oh, I am so honoured to meet you", you know, and Joe just leaned back and he said, "Come and sit with us, have a glass", you know, very clever.  So it was nice and laughing and talking and so on and ... (inaudible) ... she was stinking, you know, of something wrong.  So he left.  He just looked at me, so like, "I'm going to leave you with her.  You can deal with her", and he left and she stayed with me and she was very nice, sort of thing, and then explained how she came to know us and so on and then - but I was slowly making a move out.  I knew by then what hotel room she was and so on and I thought, "God, you know, ... (inaudible) ... I'm not going to sleep this night, I'm just going to be careful".  Out next morning, but then she must have thought - because then we walked together, you know, she walked with me in the corridor and then she said - she also put her arm around and said, "Do you want to spend the night with me?"  I told Slovo next morning.  That was the thing that really - I was so taken away by that.  I was prepared for anything, but not for this woman, who wanted to sleep with me.  (Inaudible) ... because she didn't let me go, you see.  She travelled with me as well.

DR DANIEL: So even when you said no, she didn't let you off?

MS BRAAM: No, she - you know with whom I found refuge, with Norman Lazey.  You know Norman?

DR DANIEL: Oh, yes.

MS BRAAM: I asked him, you know, because I went to his hotel room and he was just like, "Hey, God", and I told him this story.  I stayed with him, you know.  We talked, because I didn't want to go back.  Next morning, when I left for Harare that woman was also on the plane and, I mean, it's not of interest.  This is more story telling, you know.

DR DANIEL: So then, as far as the police were concerned, you were unapproachable?

MS BRAAM: I was unapproachable.  That's the thing, ja, even for the ... (inaudible).

DR DANIEL: And then you were always on the alert then?

MS BRAAM: Very much.  Then - but they must have noticed or they must have worked out what ... (inaudible).  One thing that I've done over the years is changed myself, my appearance from, sort of, the activist, you know, from jeans and, you know, into a lady.  As a lady, because I thought that's very safe and as long as they think I've got a relationship with Slovo it's better than that they think I work with him, you see.  So I was always having this nice sort of suits and high heels and in public I would be sort of girlish, having a girlish behaviour, you see, so - but, and nice clothes and I think that that is what - so these jackets were there - very, very beautiful and very much out of my - I mean money-wise and I've got a good feel and a good - for nice material.  One was a real woollen jacket - black woollen jacket, beautiful, and the other one was cotton, but with a print and a design - oh, God, I mean it must have been a fortune they must have cost, and what was most amazing, absolutely my size.  I put them on and it fitted like, you know, they were made on my body.  So beautiful and it was - they had no labels.  That's, of course, what I saw a bit later when I had them already - I had them on.  No labels, no sign what they could - and ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: Were they in a plastic folder when they were hanging?

MS BRAAM: No, no, no, they were open on a jacket - as if somebody had left them.

DR DANIEL: Had left them behind.