Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-10

MR VAN ZYL: Dr Swanepoel denies that there were any projects being done for, as you called them, Special Forces, the CCB or the Police?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I regarded Dr Basson as a member of the Special Forces.

MR VAN ZYL: Is it not correct that the client was the Defence Force?  It could be that a member of the Special Forces or the Air Force could have been the contact person, but the Defence Force was the client, not Special Forces?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  The exact military structure, I am not very clued up on that, but the actual involvement of the Surgeon General with Special Forces.  At a stage I understood that they were part of him.  I don't know whether that was his total sector.

MR VAN ZYL: I can put it to you Dr Van Rensburg, that Special Forces and the Surgeon General, didn't have anything to do with one another.  The Surgeon General is not the Commanding Officer of the Special Forces.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I stand corrected Mr Chairman.

MR VAN ZYL: Regarding your evidence that Special Forces were the clients and on whose requirements certain things were prepared, that was not correct because you made a mistake in that regard?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: It is correct but I want to add that Dr Basson referred to the cowardly Special Forces.  They didn't want to undertake operations, because they said that was murder, can you believe it.  That is how he talked about Special Forces, but I could be wrong.

MR VAN ZYL: Yesterday they referred you to a document, TRC 52, it is that sales list you have referred to.   Somebody mentioned the name, yesterday you testified - when did you for the first time see this document?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: In my TRC 52, in my lawyer's office about three weeks ago.

MR VAN ZYL: So before that, you didn't know about the existence of this document?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I said I knew that there were certain sales lists.  Sometimes when we ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, excuse me, can I just request, people who have brought newspapers into this hearings, if they can either elect to be here and listen to the proceeding because I think that is what they have come to do, or if they want to read newspapers, to go and read them elsewhere.
 Our attention is being distracted by the (indistinct) of newspapers, it is just not in keeping with the decorum that must be accorded to this proceedings.  Thank you Mr Van Zyl, you will get a further minute in your cross-examination.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I mentioned yesterday that I was aware of these lists because at one particular time I can remember, Andre had given I think Dr Swanepoel something and he said remember to put it on the list.
 The other times he mentioned these lists, I got the impression and it might be a wrong deduction, that he used these lists to motivate for equipment and to justify to his bosses that Roodeplaat was doing its job.  That is the deduction I made.

MR VAN ZYL: Let us focus our attention on this document, TRC 52.  You have never seen this document before, until recently and you were not aware of its existence.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I want to make a correction, this document was shown to me by the Attorney General long before I saw it for the first time.

MR VAN ZYL: When was that?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: And then I also saw it in this building.

MR VAN ZYL: Let's put it differently, the time when you were working at RRL, were you aware of the existence of this document?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I was aware of the existence of this document, but I never saw it.

MR VAN ZYL: This document TRC 52, can you say unequivocally that what was mentioned was this document, I am not talking about other sales lists, I am talking about the document before you, TRC 52.  Can you say today under oath that you were aware of this document, you heard discussions regarding this specific document?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, I can't say it was this specific one, but I knew it was the practise to keep lists of sales of products issued.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Odendal or Dr Odendal testified yesterday that research being undertaken by him, was provided to Dr Andre Immelman, his results from the research on these organisms, were provided to Dr Andre Immelman and he had a small fridge in his office or next to his office and then he traded these organisms or gave it to somebody else or whatever?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I did not know about this little fridge, but I was never in that storage place where he kept those things.

MR VAN ZYL: The way of distributing these agents, you were not involved in the distribution of that?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, I was not.

MR VAN ZYL: Dr Swanepoel will also testify that Gen Lothar Neethling as far as he can remember, during the time he was there, at RRL, only at one instance, came to RRL.  His evidence that he came there regularly with a bulging briefcase is untrue, it is lies?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Lothar Neethling was there while gasses were being tested.  He even came through these various gasses or the clouds.  He even came there before the building was being erected.
 My office was next to Dr Immelmann's, and I saw Dr Neethling entering that building.

MR VAN ZYL: You mentioned two instances now?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Two I can definitely remember.  I can't say whether it was one, or two or four, but as far as I can remember, I saw him there often.
 I will agree that I can confirm that he came to visit the institute twice.

MR VAN ZYL: The rest is speculation?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: The rest I can't testify about specifically.

MR VAN ZYL: Is it correct that Dr Swanepoel already in 1986 started his work at Roodeplaat?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I think it was 1986.

MR VAN ZYL: The privatisation idea, the project was executed initially like you have testified, that some of these front companies were privatised and they attempted to make them financially viable, so that they could continue.  Do you know when that idea came about, that idea about privatisation?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: It was explained in a document by Dr Knobel to a parliamentary committee who investigated this idea.
 When these laboratories were established, it was decided that they wouldn't exist for ever.  The Defence Force would use them for plus minus five years, until they have achieved their goals, then they would be scaled down, it would be privatised, and it would remain active on a lower level for about 20 years.  That idea had been there always.

MR VAN ZYL: In these documents you are referring to, three phases were mentioned, a development phase, implementation phase and then the privatisation phase, but no time was attached to that.  No time frames were attached, 1985 was the initial phase.   The project was just being started?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: The company was established in 1985.

MR VAN ZYL: If we refer to laboratories being built, that was still going on at that stage?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: We moved in in the (indistinct) building in 1985.

MR VAN ZYL: If we refer to 1986, that was a year when this project was still in its baby shoes, but no mention was made of privatisation?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Mention was made yes, right from the start.

MR VAN ZYL: It was viewed as a possibility in the future, but the implementation of the privatisation phase, can we accept Dr Van Rensburg, was not mentioned, at that stage?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No specific plans, no.

MR VAN ZYL: You see you made the allegation during your evidence that Drs Mijburgh and Swanepoel were Managing Directors of front companies.  You referred to Dr Basson's buddies because the privatisation was imminent, but it was far from that stage?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, I don't agree.  Mr Chairman, by 1986 it was clear to thinking people, that the life of the Apartheid regime was very limited, that they would have to do something.

MR VAN ZYL: I don't know what you answered now.