Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1995-04-25

MR SNAYER: Well for months and I don't know possibly for years especially the - especially my daughter who's birthday it was, I noticed for a good while after that, that any - any sudden kind of loud noise would - would make her stop and shiver and tremble.  Even the loud banging of a door that's unexpectedly heard.
 The boys went through a similar phase I think, but just the - just probably the memory of - and the awareness at that time that - that people actually did not have access to or real access to complaining about those kinds of things.
 I suppose especially for the older children I don't know what kind of effect that had on them except that I think I am grateful that in some way it shaped their consciousness about - about where they were living, in what kind of country they were living and how - how the country should change.

DR BORAINE: Ja, I only have two more questions and then I will hand over to the Chairperson in case any of our colleagues would like to ask you any more questions.  Firstly you have described very vividly of the shots that were being fired for a very long time.  Starting from before one o'clock in the morning and only really finishing around about quarter to eight.
 You told us also of the police who not only were around your house and across the road, but also came into your house and shot - further shots were fired and you talked about the sarrison??? that obviously used it's own power to break down the wall and then the final explosion which may or may not have been a hand grenade or whatever.
 Can you remember - think very carefully, can you remember hearing or witnessing shots, fire coming from a house towards your house or across the road of the police being fired upon.  Have you any recollection of that at all?

MR SNAYER: Well from - from my advantage point there was - there was - there was very little chance of me saying in which direction shots were going.

DR BORAINE: Okay.

MR SNAYER: I suppose if any bullets had - had either come through the window they would have made marks.

DR BORAINE: Sure.

MR SNAYER: Inside my house, I haven't changed the tiles for example in my kitchen or my bathroom, so I could - I can only conclude that from that - from that angle there were certainly no - no bullets or stray bullets.

DR BORAINE: Ja.

MR SNAYER: There was one - two - there were two marks the one was on - on the wall of the room where I had - I had taken up a final position.  Where a bullet was lodged and there was another hole slanted into the - into the back door of my garage.  Those were the only - that's the only evidence or apparent evidence of shots that were fired in a direction coming from the house.

DR BORAINE: From the house, so there may well have been [intervention]

MR SNAYER: That is possible ja.

DR BORAINE: Ja, a final question then is - there was an inquest, were you called or summonsed or requested to give evidence at that inquest?

MR SNAYER: No.

DR BORAINE: The lawyer never approached you?

MR SNAYER: No.

DR BORAINE: Weren't you surprised at that?

MR SNAYER: It's the first time I hear that there was an inquest.

DR BORAINE: Astonishing, thank you very much indeed, you've been very helpful.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any questions, Dr Wendy Orr.

WENDY ORR: Mr Snayer thank you for - for telling us of what must have been a really terrifying experience.  To clear the sequence of events in my mind about what time did this Captain or Sergeant Brazelle come into your house?

MR SNAYER: I was certainly after three o'clock the morning.

WENDY ORR: So the shooting had already been going on for some time when he came in.

MR SNAYER: The shooting didn't stop, I suppose intimately possibly a half a minute - maximum I would say silence throughout the night until that final explosion.  There was no stopping.

WENDY ORR: At any time after the shooting first started, did the police or anyone come in and say look there is a police operation going on and for your own safety let's take you somewhere safe.  Did they show any concern for your safety.

MR SNAYER: No in fact I - I made that suggestion after I had - on my own before the police entered my house, thought of that idea of evacuating the house.  But in peeping through the window and seeing that there were police in the front of the house I decided against it.  But when they had chosen to enter my house.  I had made that suggestion again to this Captain or Sergeant Brazelle who refused point blank that - that I should leave there.  That was certainly  an option or a concern for me.

WENDY ORR: So you and obviously other families in the neighbourhood were in constant danger during that [intervention]

MR SNAYER: Absolutely.

WENDY ORR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: [indistinct]  ask that is in all the time and you seem to have been there from the time that the shooting started right to the end, was there - did you hear at any time the police say to the person inside the house, come out and we'll stop the shooting.  Was he given the opportunity to give himself up?

MR SNAYER: No to - not to my mind, I certainly didn't hear any such request, I only heard something which points to the contrary, kom uit jou vark, vandag is jy dood.  Come out you pig today you will be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Ja, now do you have an indication or can you formulate an impression in your mind as to what size police force there was on that day.

MR SNAYER: I can't accurately say how many.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Approximately?

MR SNAYER: I would say approximately - you see if I take the Casspir into consideration and - I would say at least about 35 - 40.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I see and from your impression it was clear that there were pursuing one person.

MR SNAYER: Absolutely.

ADV NTSEBEZA: In fact our research department has compiled a short note and they say the police claimed that they surrounded this particular house after receiving a tip off which was allegedly made by a man who was believed to be Anton's accomplice  and which man they had arrested near a telephone exchange in Kromboom Road.
 Now the question is, did you as a community ever establish who this alleged accomplice was, who had been arrested in Kromboom Road earlier on and were tipped off the police?

MR SNAYER: Not to my knowledge.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And in any event, as just a related question did you consider that the police could have used some other methods of either arresting or causing this man to be flushed out - out of that- of that house.

MR SNAYER: Well certainly my experience with - with the South African Police at that time, they had methods of dispersing of thousands of people in the street in a matter of minutes. They took seven hours in what could only be described as declaring a residential area a war zone and terrorising not only Anton and the immediate people in the two homes, but also residence in the area who's lives were constantly in danger.
 I - I have no doubt in my mind that, that for me was also part of the motivation for me to agree to this - to this testimony.  I - I am convinced that if the will was there, Anton could have been gassed out, starved out if it took seven days in order to gain intelligence for whatever purpose.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now correct me if I am wrong.  Do I understand that your own impression is that the police never came there to take a prisoner.

MR SNAYER: To?

ADV NTSEBEZA: To take a prisoner, they came to kill one.