Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: May I then start with a few questions.  I really want to look at this issue of names because it is not singular to your statement.  It happens in all statements and I want to get to the bottom of this in some way.  You said in your statement that this Mr Majonie Mahlangu came to your house and he said that Prince James wanted to see your husband.  That is correct.  You heard that from Majonie.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You also gave evidence that when he returned he told you that the youth took your husband, the boys.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not, at that stage say, that Prince
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James took your husband.  He said the youth.  Okay.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: No, he never said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  The reason why I am raising this and in a sense I want to share it, also, with the audience, is that we find more and more statements where whatever happened to people, they link to the person that they perceive to be in leadership.  For instance, they would say Prince James Mahlangu did that when they mean the youth did it.  Or P W did it when they mean the Government did it or Nelson Mandela did it when they mean the ANC did it.  This happens a lot, but in sharing on that basis people come to identify that with the individual and I just want to make it clear that is not to say that the people can run away from responsibility if they are associated with the group, but we need to distinct between individuals and the group as such.  That is the reason why, really, I am putting this to you and I really appreciate it your mentioning the name of Prince James Mahlangu under the circumstances and I am pretty sure he also appreciates it.  That helps to understand how the conflict spiralled into what was almost becoming something uncontainable.
 A follow-up question to this please, Mrs Sithole.  Was your husband, indeed, a member of Imbokhoto?  Do you know?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: No, I was never a member of Imbokhoto.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think he was associated with Imbokhoto?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: I was also surprised when Mahlangu came back and he told me like that.

CHAIRPERSON: The burning of the business and all the businesses since, did I understand you correctly that you still relate that to the perception that it is an Imbokhoto
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business and that is why they were burnt.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I heard you say that in 1992, 1993, 1994 businesses were burnt and burnt again on the basis of those businesses belonging to Imbokhoto.  So there is an inference that people in opposition to Imbokhoto were responsible for the burning of the businesses.  Did I understand you correctly?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: According to my own perception, I regarded, I take it like that because they said our shops should be boycotted because they were from Imbokhoto members.  At our shop, it was not a shop belonging to a member of Imbokhoto because if they could allow people to go and buy.  I was surprised when they started burning the shop.  What are they burning the shop for because even at the beginning when they arrested, they took Sithole.  I knew that he was not a member of Imbokhoto.  I was surprised when they came back they said he was taken out by the boys.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sithole, were there any arrests made in connection with the death of your husband?  Did the police investigate?  Did you have any further information?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: I never heard anyone who was arrested after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you have any report backs from the police?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: As I have said the police came once at my place.  They took me with my uncle.  After that we heard nothing.  They said there were no witnesses.  The matter ended up there.
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CHAIRPERSON: And this Mr Majonie Mahlangu, do you know where he is at present?  Can he be contacted?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: I had by rumours that he is in Witbank, but his house is in Siyabuswa and his family is staying there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him who the youth was, who the boys were that took your husband away?  Did he name any of them?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: No, because when he came to tell me about the incident my mind always was concentrated on him.  They could no longer come to my place, was far away from me from there.

CHAIRPERSON: If we should get around to further investigations, would you be able to help us with the address of Mr Majonie Mahlongu?  Can you find him?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: I only the stand number, but I do not know where he is working.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mrs Sithole, thank you.  I have no further questions, but my colleagues may have some.  Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Sithole, you said and we have to accept what you said, that your husband was not a member of Imbokhoto, but were you or your husband, were you involved in any way in the political conflict that was taking place at the time?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: No, we were not involved, but when the unrest started we heard about it, but we were not involved in that situation.  What I know with my husband is that he use to work with the headman who was called Ben Sithole for a very long time.  He use to work with the headman, Ben Sithole.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the headman, Ben Sithole, was he seen as being involved in any way, politically, what affiliation did he have?  Do you know?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: What I can is that Mr Sithole was working in
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the tribal authority.  He was old.  I do not think he was an Imbokhoto because he use to call my husband when he go to the tribal authority to accompany him all the time.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, Mrs Sithole, if you are saying your husband was not involved and you were not involved and he was not Imbokhoto, why do you think then that Prince James would have wanted to speak to your husband?  What is your understanding?  Why did Majonie Mahlangu come and say that Prince James want to speak to your husband?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Majonie was a friend to my husband.  There is nothing which he did not know about my husband.

RUSSELL ALLY: So it seems then that if we are going to get some answers or some understanding and it is Majonie Mahlangu who will be able to, perhaps, assist us.  It is important then that we do get an address or somewhere where we can trace him and ask him to try and shed some light on the matter.  Thank you very much Mrs Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Sithole, you said the time Majonie came to fetch your husband, you also say there was someone who confirmed again that Prince James called him.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: That is Joseph Mahlangu.

MS SEROKE: Where is this Joseph Mahlangu?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: He is staying in Siyabuswa.

MS SEROKE: Could you be able to get an address for us?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Yes, of course.

MS SEROKE: Lastly, when you say that your shop was burnt down in 1992, the Imbokhoto issue was still on in KwaNdebele during that time?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: No, it was still there.  Although they were not fighting as compared to 1986, the conflict was still
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there.

MS SEROKE: How do you prove that the conflict was still going on?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: Because they were saying that some other shops should be boycotted and others should not be boycotted.  That is an indication that the conflict was still on.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Sithole, you talk about the van that drove away.  Was this a police van?

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: You are talking about the van which ran away?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Right.