Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Those were Goniwe and the other three people, Galata - I can't remember the other names now.

MR PHOSA: Sorry Mr Chairman, can I just have a short while?
	Are you saying that you were involved in the discussion to eliminate Goniwe and others?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Whereas as a South African, I have also been reading the press and listening to radio and other things and TV - I wasn't really paying close attention to these aspects, so I'll ask you some questions that may seem to some others very obvious.  Are you also implicated officially?  Have you been implicated or been accused of the killing of Goniwe and others?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Up to now, have you considered this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't understand what you mean?

MR PHOSA: Have you admitted this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I have applied for amnesty for those cases.

MR PHOSA: All right, now we know of Mr Kondile, we know of the Mthimkhulu and Madaka, we know of the Goniwe four - four of them, isn't it - in Goniwe?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Four, yes.

MR PHOSA: Now are there others that you have admitted having been involved in their elimination or the planning of their elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Just mention them - I have a question to ask you after you have given us all the names, just mention them quickly and then I'll ask you some questions about ...[intervention]

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, okay.  We refer to the Motherwell case.

MR PHOSA: How many people there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Four.

MR PHOSA: Including some policemen?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Members of the security police?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Who were working very closely with you and your friends on the face of it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Who trusted you as their superior?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I assume so.

MR PHOSA: Who had been doing terrible things on your instructions and others before that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I have been given to understand that, you are correct.

MR PHOSA: Yes, who else?  Who were the others?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The other case which I referred to is a case in Swaziland.

MR PHOSA: Who died there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There were two men and a child who were killed there.

MR PHOSA: Just mention when you have given the list, then I can continue.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Please repeat the question.

MR PHOSA: When you have given the whole list please mention, then I can proceed to the next question.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have given you the whole list as far as I know.

MR PHOSA: Right, in sequence then - and we now know or I also know now that the Kondile matter came before the present one, before the Mthimkhulu and Madaka matter.  Where in this whole scenario did the others fit in?  Just give us the order, I want to know what you did after Mthimkhulu for instance.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: After Mthimkhulu, was Goniwe.

MR PHOSA: Yes, and then?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: And then the Motherwell 4 - no, the Swaziland case was I think in 1979, before the Goniwe case.

MR PHOSA: I see.  So by the time that you - sorry, so as to help me van Rensburg, when you are through just switch off your machine as well because I sometimes think you are still going on.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Okay.

MR PHOSA: By the time that you were eliminating these two - Mthimkhulu and Madaka, you'd already been through two other instances, that is the Swaziland and the Kondile cases?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now and if I'm wrong please say so, were you worried at all these times - the time that after you killed the persons in Swaziland and Kondile, you were extremely worried about what you had done - the killing of human beings, weren't you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I was concerned.

ADV SANDI: Did you apply for amnesty in respect of the Swaziland incident you've mentioned?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I've got the papers before me.

MR PHOSA: Were you at any stage the head of the CI Vlakplaas farm - the Vlakplaas?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I was, they were part of that of which I was head.  I had more than one component of which I was head, and one of the components was Vlakplaas.

MR PHOSA: Were you per chance given the task of dealing with the elimination aspect - you were heading that aspect?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't understand your question, are you saying that I - are you asking whether I was tasked at Vlakplaas to eliminate people, is that what you're trying to say or asking me?  Can you just please repeat the question?

MR PHOSA: Were you at any stage given the task - if you were not given the task, found yourself involved in the task of eliminating politicos, in other words it being your role to eliminate politicos of the nature you've described?

MR BOOYENS: I think it's uncertain, is my learned friend speaking about excluding the ones that he mentioned in other words?

ADV DE JAGER: I beg your pardon, could I just determine from the interpreters on which channel the questions are being translated into Afrikaans.

INTERPRETER: The Afrikaans questions are to be interpreted on channel 1 but currently the applicant is not listening to channel 1 and it's not possible at this moment to interpret for him.  We did do that but the questioning went so fast that we started losing the English.  I hope that answers the Commissioner.

ADV DE JAGER: I can hear you and I can hear the answer but I can never hear the questions being translated.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, Mr van Rensburg is using channel 4 which is basically the channel that he hears the question in English.

ADV DE JAGER: Because unfortunately I can't determine if it - so at this stage it's not being translated to him in Afrikaans?

MR PHOSA: If I could ask, is he having a problem though - I'm just asking.

ADV DE JAGER: I'll solve my problem Mr Phosa, I'm busy doing it.

MR PHOSA: I'm not referring to your problem Mr Commissioner - Mr Committee member, I'm referring to whether the witness is having a problem, I would never say that of you.  Is he having a problem with the question of the language - listening, understanding English.  I'm just asking, I'm not saying he must understand English.

MR BOOYENS: No, we're on channel 4 where we hear the questions in English and answer in Afrikaans, that the one where's there's no translation Mr Chairman.  Is that correct?

MR PHOSA: But is that a problem?  So we can go ahead then?

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

MR PHOSA: What I really wanted to find out - perhaps I should put it differently, I assume too much.  You know Vlakplaas has a reputation, a public reputation - I don't know if it's correct, of having been a place where people were tortured or members of that team were torturing politicos and even killing people.  Do you know that reputation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Is that an accepted - a correct interpretation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, because you were involved in the elimination of the people you've mentioned specifically and then you were also at Vlakplaas - I'm sorry, I must be careful about what I say here - Vlakplaas, because you were in that farm obviously I got the impression that you might have been given - assigned the task of dealing with the elimination, specifically the elimination of troublesome politicos, that's the question I'm asking.