Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR PRETORIUS: Do you also understand that Mr Mangena gave the same evidence in the Inquest Court and you agreed with that evidence at that stage?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I was not with anybody else inside the court.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman as to expedite matters Mr Mondli Zuma, Mr Gary Kruser and all the other applicants gave evidence at a length at the Inquest Court. There were various contradictions between the evidence that they gave which was put at certain stages inter alia to this witness. I do not wish to if it can be avoided to go through all those parts of evidence again and point out all those contradictions again. Can I request that the evidence that all these applicants gave at the Inquest Court be placed before this Committee and we accept that, that is the evidence that they gave there and that once we address the Committee we can refer to those evidence and the place where they conflict and where they were confronted etc. So that we don't have to go through the whole exercise again here.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) is that the evidence of the applicants in this case?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed the evidence of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Have you any comments to make in respect of the evidence given by the applicants.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(inaudible) I can see no reason why it should be excluded Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: If they want to address any argument and that they are obviously entitled but we will (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It is suggested that in order to save time they do not want to traverse.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes Mr Chairman we are anxious to do that, we are anxious to do that but if they want to do that sort of analysis then we will have to respond in the manner in which some of this evidence was extracted. But that is a matter for argument but there is no basis upon which we can as you to exclude the evidence given by the applicants. And we will (...indistinct) that Mr Chairman for the time being.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
	If there are matters specifically where there are contradictions, not on side issues but on matters that are material for the purpose of determining whether amnesty should or should not be granted then you must afford the witness an opportunity. But we don't think it is necessary to traverse every little point of contradiction which might be relevant for the purpose of the trial and not for our purposes for time to be taken up by evidence on such matters.

MR PRETORIUS: As it pleases the Committee Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: I just want to make it clear. We are going to ask the Committee to accept the evidence that has been lead here.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

GEORGE BIZOS: So if they want to make, if they want to refer to anything that was said the only thing we will admit then is that it was said there. And they can make whatever ... the evidence before this Committee is it is the evidence that is lead here that we are.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite clear we are concerned with the evidence that is adduced before us. The purpose of pointing out any difference in the evidence which they are giving now from what they had said in some other proceedings is done with a view to criticising the witness on the ground that his evidence is not reliable. His evidence, his recollection may be faulty or in some instances it may be said that he is purposely not telling the truth. Those are matters for argument.

GEORGE BIZOS: And any explanation that may appear on that record as to why there may be differences.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But I think we do understand the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Khumalo in so far as a material aspect at the Inquest Court is concerned where your evidence conflicted with that of Mr Zuma. At the time that you were in the vicinity of King George and de Villiers Street when you state that the marchers fired shots and you returned fire where upon Mr Mondli Zuma and yourself thereafter returned to Shell House. Mr Zuma testified that there was only one shot fired at you by the crowd and that you only fired one shot back. However you testified that you fired 5 shots in return fire. Do you recall that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: I put it to you that your evidence in that respect was also fabrication. That there was no persons from the crowd that fired shots at you whilst you were on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street. Your reaction thereto?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is your democratic right to put it that.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chair I am not going to respond at this stage thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Yes so I am just going to leave it at that and let it rest for argument. Mr Khumalo there is another important aspect. Mr Kruser has testified that before he gave the order to repel the marchers a shot struck the window of a shop in the vicinity of his head or the guard's head in the vicinity where they were standing down there at the corner. Did you hear that shot as well?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think in my statement that shot is there. I have said that I heard a whistle passing us.

MR PRETORIUS: Now before Mr Kruser gave the order to shoot, that is to repel the marchers not the warning shots. To repel the marchers did you fire any shots with the AK47?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

MR PRETORIUS: You see if we take Mr Kruser's evidence and we read that together with the ballistic report, the ballistic report explains that, that shot that struck the window just above your heads was actually fired by yourself with the AK47. So the only inference one can make is that you did fire a shot or shots before Mr Kruser gave the order to repel the marchers.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't think so.

JUDGE NGCOBO: You are referring to firing a shot with an AK47?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Sorry I didn't get your question.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you say you did not fire a shot before the order to repel was issued you only referring to firing a shot with an AK47?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I didn't fire any shot before I was given an order.

MR PRETORIUS: Now you also just said that you experienced it because the shots came past your head. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you refer to this one shot that Mr Kruser also observed or did you refer to other shots?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't know which one.

MR PRETORIUS: Was it more than one shot that you observed that came past your head?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes it was more than one shot.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo none of the guards were injured or killed. That is common cause. Neither could the ballistics find signs of any shots that were fired by the marchers in the direction of the guards at the corner of King George and Plein Street. I put it to you that this once again proves that you are not telling the truth.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't think so. Sometimes things happen. Ricochets are there. If there is no proof that there were people from the marchers who were firing then I will accept that but if people from the marchers were firing it can happen that there can be ricochets. These are built-up areas. When the bullets strikes there it takes a different turn. If you had come with an angle then anything can happen.

MR PRETORIUS: Again Mr Chairman I am not going to go further and argue with this witness. I will leave it for our address at the time that we address this Committee. If the Committee could just bear with me one moment?
	Mr Khumalo is it correct that you and Gary Kruser were together in the foyer of Shell House, he then handed to you and AK47 and you and Gary Kruser and Mondli Zuma thereafter together went to the corner of King George and Plein Street?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is correct.