Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, with regard to this particular mission, is it correct that you were told to infiltrate a certain group?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: This is the situation. Before I was sent to this particular group there was a prisoner held at the police station cells who I was given instructions to get some names of his comrades and I slept with him in the cell and the following day I had to tell him that my lawyer was there to release me.

MR P WILLIAMS: You may continue.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Sorry.  He told me that my lawyer had come to rescue me and, therefore, he had to give me my address where he was staying in Guguletu.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think there has to be some, Mr Mbelo told him.  It is Mr Mbelo who told his lawyer had come to release him the next day.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The, my commander said I must tell him that my lawyer has come to release me, because whilst I was in the cell there was an impression created that I was being questioned and therefore I had to tell them if there was any progress made with this man in the cell.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, due to the contact that you have made with this person in the cell, were you able to infiltrate a group in Crossroads?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I managed to go to the address that he gave me and I met his brother and he took me to Crossroads.  That is where I met a group of 20 people in one house.  Whilst I was there I heard there was one named Commander comrade Chris and that is the group that I met on that day.

MR P WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Committee what was the purpose of infiltrating this group?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The purpose of this infiltration was to actually establish who they were and what were they doing.  I had to establish as to whether they were doing all the attacks that were in Crossroads.

MR P WILLIAMS: Was your purpose at any stage to train these people or to arm these people?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, whilst you were with this group did you see any weapons in their house or on their persons?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I never saw any arms in their possession or in their house.

MR P WILLIAMS: How long did you stay with this group?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I spent only one night with them and the following day I went back, because some of them became suspicious.

MR P WILLIAMS: Ja, and is it correct that they were asked, that you provide them with a contact person who can vouch for you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I, they wanted to know who was I responsible, accounting to in Johannesburg.  Then I just gave them a name and the following day they said that they will go and confirm as to whether this person knows me and my background.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, you then left the next morning?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: And is it correct that Eric Maluleka and Jimmy Mbane were then sent to infiltrate this group?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: I have had insight into a statement purporting to come from Jimmy Mbane and he says that himself and, if I remember correctly, Thabiso was sent.  Can you comment on that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I cannot say anything about Thabiso, because the people who were sent on that particular day of the Guguletu 7, it was Eric and Jimmy.

MR P WILLIAMS: And then on paragraph, in paragraph 15 you say that,
"I recall at one stage that Jimmy reported to Bellingan that the group required ammunition."
Were you present when that request was made?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I was present, because Jimmy met with Bellingan at the Parade and we were to offer them security at that time.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, with regard to the incident itself, which occurred on the third of March, firstly can you tell the Committee how did you come to know or when is the very first time that you became aware of this impending incident or ...?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It was about a week before this.

MR P WILLIAMS: Ja, can you give more specifics or detail?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Because Mr Bellingan, he was our Commander, he told us that Jimmy has reported that there is a planned attack on policemen and he is not sure as to when is this going to happen and, therefore, we should be alert.

MR P WILLIAMS: And is it correct that in the early hours of the third of March 1986 you were called to a meeting at Wingfield and that yourself, your Commander, Sergeant Bellingan, at that stage, and that representatives of the Riot Squad, Murder and Robbery Squad and security branch were there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so.

MR P WILLIAMS: That Captain Liebenberg led the security branch component and Captain Kleyn led the Murder and Robbery Squad component.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so.

MR P WILLIAMS: And that apart from yourself and Bellingan, Mr Nobela, who was also from Vlakplaas, were also there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so.

MR P WILLIAMS: Can you then, in your own words, describe what occurred at this meeting, what discussions took place and what decisions were made?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: At that meeting there was a map produced of the area where the attack was to take place and people were deployed and given specific instructions as to which positions to occupy.  We were told to be very careful as these people are extremely dangerous and they are heavily armed.

MR P WILLIAMS: What were your instructions, what were you going to do at the scene?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: At, myself, I knew that it would be impossible to arrest armed men.  I knew that these men were going to shoot, because the words that were used there is that they should be eliminated.

MR P WILLIAMS: What other words were used?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: To be taken out, they had to be eliminated.

MR P WILLIAMS: If I can just ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say "taken out" in English?

MR P WILLIAMS: Ja, he did, he said that.
	What other words were used?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: To be swept, they had to be swept.

MR P WILLIAMS: Sweep.  Now, according to your knowledge, what do these or what do you, what do these words mean?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It means killing.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now, were those the words that were used at the actual planning meeting?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: They were used several times in the meeting and even before the meeting was held.  Throughout the planning, whilst Jimmy Mbane was in Crossroads, these words were used.

MR P WILLIAMS: Were you at any stage told that if you were able to capture or arrest any of the freedom fighters, that you should do so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I do not remember being given such instructions to arrest them.

MR P WILLIAMS: When you left that meeting what was the overall impression that you had, what should you do to the freedom fighters?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When we left that meeting, in my mind I knew that we were going to fight and even the manner in which the policemen were deployed and everyone was prepared to shoot before being killed.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, is it correct then, that your mission clearly was that you should go out and there and that you should kill the freedom fighters?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to the situation, yes, it was so.

MR P WILLIAMS: I will ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry.  Were you instructed, that is the question which is being put to you.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: We were not told that we must kill them, but words to that effect were used.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, if I understand you correctly, the word "kill" or "murder" was never used?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

MR P WILLIAMS: But the words "sweep" and "take them out" were used?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: Which, to your mind, meant to kill?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.