Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MKHIZE: Yes, this did happen.  We did meet and decide to stay in the hostel, because of the attacks that we were experiencing.
	Because of those attacks, we decided to come together and stay in the hostel.

MR BERGER: He says they were there from 1990 until 1993 when I was arrested, that was the last time I saw them there.  I do not know who gave orders to Qunchu.
	Was it a secret that Damara Qunchu was your assistant?

MR MKHIZE: It was not a secret.

MR BERGER: Then in paragraph 6, Mr Mthembu says Damara Qunchu was the leader of the hit squads from Umsinga.  He was the leader of the hit squad in the kwaMadala hostel as well.  Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am not aware of those hit squads.

MR BERGER: Was there a group of men, 40 to 50 men, who came from Umsinga to stay at kwaMadala hostel who were not working at ISCOR and who lived in the hostel and who were supported by the other residents in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct.  There were people from Umsinga, but they were not more than ten.  They could have been eleven at the most and I knew them.  We are still staying with these people.  They were not 40.
	No, some of them used to work in the taxi business, just like Mr Qunchu, he owned taxi's.

MR BERGER: You see, because Mr Victor Mthembu talks in great detail in his affidavit about this Umsinga contingent, and his version coincides with your version about paying money, or money being collected from the residents for the purchase of guns.
	He talks about it in paragraph 8 on page 6, he says that after the police had raided the hostel, no weapons were left and then this resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought.  Do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember it clearly.  What I do remember is that I was one of the people who used to call meetings where we would discuss how much was required to buy those weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an incident when the police came to the hostel and confiscated firearms?

MR MKHIZE: The police normally came to the hostel and they would confiscate firearms.  It used to happen quite frequently.

CHAIRPERSON: After they had been confiscated, would the residents of the hostel then collect money to buy further arms?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And Vanana Zulu would attend these meetings, call upon the residents to contribute money so that weapons could be bought, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember it that way.  What I remember is that I was the person responsible for collecting or asking people to collect that money.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu says that the reason that he gave money and he talks about others also giving for the same reason, was that they were afraid that if they didn't give money for these weapons, that they would be killed by members of the Umsinga contingent.

MR MKHIZE: It could be, I cannot dispute what he is saying because as I also mentioned, I realised that my life was in danger.  He could have realised the same thing.

MR BERGER: Well, that is exactly where I was coming to Mr Mkhize.  You say that you launched the attack on Boipatong because you felt that if you didn't do that at that stage, you yourself could be killed by some of the hostel residents, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And was it not this Umsinga contingent that you feared would kill you, if the attack was not launched?

MR MKHIZE: No, I said it was the residents of kwaMadala.  I did not refer to specific individuals.
	I just said it was the residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Well, which residents in particular did you fear might go so far as to kill you if an attack was not launched?

MR MKHIZE: It was the residents of kwaMadala hostel who were complaining of being attacked and killed.

MR BERGER: In the attack on the 17th of June 1992, did you feel that there was a group of residents in the hostel who were intent on killing you?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Did you feel that if you had not launched the attack on the 17th of June 1992, that there was a group of residents whom you didn't know by name, who were intent on killing you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You made a confession or let me move away from a loaded word like that, let me say that you made a statement after your arrest to a Captain Radley, do you remember that, that was on the 11th of July 1992?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Do you not remember making any statement to the police?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember because we were assaulted by the police, because we were assaulted and we made several statements at the time.

MR BERGER: I am referring to Exhibit E which is currently before the Committee, perhaps if my learned friend, Mr Strydom, could place a copy of that Exhibit before you, I would appreciate that.  If not, I will read it, it is fine.
	I will read it to you and then it will be translated.  You say on page 4 of this Exhibit E, paragraph 12, that which I can say, happened on Wednesday evening.  That Wednesday was the 17th of June 1992, it was just after nine o'clock in the evening.  You are recounting what happened that night.
	So far what I have read to you, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am not sure.

MR BERGER: Okay, I will go on.  You continue, you say I was at the kwaMadala hostel, I live there in a room, it is room number 8.  Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That Wednesday at that time, I was at the stadium inside the hostel, that would be at about nine o'clock in the evening, you say you were at the stadium inside the hostel.  Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you go on to say, I and other people who were living at that hostel, had decided that the people were preventing us from leaving the hostel to go to the shops, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: We then decided to attack the people who lived in the vicinity of the hostel.  Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You can accept when I say the following, that there is no mention made in this statement of any other reason for the attack, other than the fact that people were being prevented from going to the shops.  That was your sole reason as stated in this statement for the attack.
	My question to you is, why did you not make any mention of the fact that you launched the attack for two reasons, (a) because you, yourself were terrified that you would be killed if you did not launch the attack, and (b) that IFP members were being killed by people from Boipatong?
	Why did you make no mention of that?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was just an omission on my part.  It is a fact that people were being killed.  It is not something that I am making up.

MR BERGER: Is it a fact that, and I think your words were, IFP members were dying every day, being killed every day by people in Boipatong, is that a fact?  You say yes?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, although it may not have been daily, but it happened frequently.

MR BERGER: In Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: They were being attacked by people from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You were living in the area, you say from 1990.  Before you moved into kwaMadala, you were staying in Sebokeng, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At the hostel, kwaMasisa hostel?

MR MKHIZE: No, at Sebokeng hostel.

MR BERGER: You will know that many people were killed at the Sebokeng hostel on the 4th of September 1990, do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember it well.

MR BERGER: In fact a total of 43 people were killed and many were wounded.  It was a confrontation between Inkatha, the IFP, and hostel residents at Sebokeng hostel.  Do you not remember that at all?

MR MKHIZE: I remember that there was a lot of fighting at the hostel and when we were attacked and had to flee, a lot of people were killed.