Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

CHAIRPERSON: Is Justice Margo still a judge, or is he retired... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...and he is in a condition, for instance, to respond... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...to a subpoena if we were disposed to issue one?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I think the commission should make up its own mind on that, but on Friday last week, Peter Thorneycroft, a journalist for the Independent Newspapers, phoned him and his reply to - she asked him what his response was, and he said, "I can't give you a response, my captors won't let me", and on inquiry as to who his captors were, he replied, "The Russians".    So I think that you might get, I think that we're dealing with the ravings of a man who's now senile.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Maybe it is the Russians, I don't know.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Mr Magadla?

MR MAGADLA: Thank you.   During the realisation by the pilots at the airport from which they had to take off, I think it was Taipei, the fact that there was going to be, or there was this delay that was taking place, wouldn't it have been relayed to ZUR that, at that time, that "Look, we are going to delay because of this and because of that"?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It was relayed to ZUR, but not because of anything.   Once - there was no need, you must remember ZUR is an open wavelength.   Now you don't, unless there is a terrible need to say something, you would not discuss it as a matter of informal chit-chat.   If you were delayed in take-off and there was no other problem, other than the delay, you wouldn't say, "I'm being delayed because some lunatic wants to put rocket fuel aboard the aircraft", you'd simply say, "We are delayed".

MR MAGADLA: Now, in the course of your investigations, did you come across any information or talk that certain passengers, or would-be passengers, missed that flight?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes, and certain passengers were aboard that flight inexplicably.   There were certainly passengers who missed the flight, I mean every time it comes up, somebody accosts me and says, "You know, I should have been on that flight", so there were a lot of people who, for whatever reason, didn't make it onto the flight, but Mr Osler inexplicably was on that flight.   I'm not sure how he got to Taipei, but he had a rather hectic itinerary before getting there, and I believe that Mr Osler may very well have been linked to a front procurement company for Armscor, and he as on that flight, and part of the rumour is that Uys would not take off without an Armscor representative being aboard that flight.

MR MAGADLA: Now this conversation at the cockpit, couldn't it have been at the inquiry, couldn't it have been a suggestion that at least the representatives of the families and the commission listen to that, without it being heard by other people?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That was never done, Mr Commissioner, not in the Margo report, but it's present in the DCA documents.  You will see it is a conversation of utter triviality, there was nothing in there that could offend the most sensitive wife.   I think even my wife wouldn't have objected to it.

MR MAGADLA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Dr Kladzow, it remains for me to thank you for this part of your contribution to this inquiry.   We are taking your recommendations extremely seriously, especially insofar as they are relevant to what the Ministry of Transport should be doing.   I can only say it is only constraints in terms of capacity and time that are preventing us, especially now, from airing this inquiry as much as we could, and a number of unforeseen circumstances prevented us from dealing with this inquiry earlier, but to the extent that we are going to be looking at your evidence, and hopefully the evidence of others who will come, who will, with your assistance we will try and squeeze to present us something worthwhile, we will be able to put together not only a recommendation to the Ministry, but something that should go into the final report and which will keep this matter in the public domain until the truth has been established, whatever it costs the country and whatever it costs the parastatals.   For now, thank you very much.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It's been my pleasure, Mr Chairman.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you, Dr Klatzow.   I would just like to remind the panel that for all subsequent inquiries into, of witnesses, Dr Klatzow will be assisting me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are conscious of that, but since you will be acting as a consultant to the commission and therefore will be a member of the commission, you will need to be sworn in.   Commissioner Glenda Wildschut will administer that.
INAUDIBLE DISCUSSION

CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a situation where we do not have a witness to call before... (intervention).

MS TERREBLANCHE: Mr Commissioner, our next witness (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: You are not on the record.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Oh, sorry.   Our next witness is Mr Gert van der Veer, the former chief executive of SAA.   He has specifically asked to be here today, because he needs to travel to Montreal for the Air Safety Convention.   However... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: How ironic.

MS TERREBLANCHE: However - and he was also told to be here at 9:30 today.    We have made travel arrangements for him.  Unfortunately he is not here.   I don't know if you want to call him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think his name must be called three times outside there, and it's true you should also, before we resume at 2:00, you should also sit in.   Perhaps the proper thing to do is, if you are in telephonic conver-sation, whoever, might throw some light as to his whereabouts, please do so, and then please bring us a report at two o'clock when we next resume.

MS TERREBLANCHE: It has been confirmed to Virginia Davids by himself that he will be here at 9:30 and she has been trying to call his numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.   Ja, I would like you to make sure yourself that this is so.

MS TERREBLANCHE: I will do so, Mr Commissioner.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I, Dr David Joseph Klatzow, hereby declare under oath, solemnly affirm that I understand and shall honour the obligation of confidentiality imposed on me by any provision of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act of 1995, and shall not act in contra-vention thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Klatzow has now been formally sworn in, in terms of the Act, as a member of the commission in his consultancy capacity.
 The proceedings will adjourn until two o'clock or such time as, well until two o'clock, and Ms Terreblanche is requested to ensure the attendance or otherwise of the next witness, and to establish the whereabouts of Mr Gert van der Veer, former chief executive of SAA, who was expected to have testified from 11:30.   We will adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche, who are you calling next and (indistinct)?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you, Commissioner Ntsebeza, I am calling Mr Gert van der Veer, the former chief executive of South African Airways.   He was in that capacity at the time of the Helderberg disaster in 1987.   He's been... (intervention).