Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR MATELA: I did not realise whether they were armed or not because when I first met them they just asked me where the comrades were, but when they entered Mashengoville I never realised whether they were armed or not.  I never thought that at all.  Maybe the people who stopped them are the ones who saw their ammunition.

ADV DE JAGER: And am I correct in saying you were a marshal, a prominent member of the ANC?

MR MATELA: That is true Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: You had influence with the people?

MR MATELA: Yes I could talk to people and we were the ones who were giving people shacks to live in.

ADV DE JAGER: And if you have asked the people be calm now, let's hit these people but we shouldn't kill them, let's give them a hiding they would have listened to you?

MR MATELA: They wouldn't listen to me because people were angry due to the rumours that there were people who were going to attack them.  When I got there everything was
already out of control.  If it started whilst I was there I could try and stop them, but people were reacting out of anger that they might be attacked.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am just going to read something to you here, a note here, is it correct that during that time there was violence in the area?

MR MATELA: Yes it is true Sir.  It was during the week, all this started during the week.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it correct that people had been killed by vigilantes known as Russians?

MR MATELA: Yes I heard about this whilst I was in prison that people were being killed by the Russian group.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Before that you didn't hear of it, before the killing of these people you didn't hear about that?

MR MATELA: I did hear about some Russian members who killed a PAC comrade before I went to prison.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it true that there were rumours in that area that the Russians were about to attack, to launch an attack?

MR MATELA: Yes it is true because they were holding meetings at the filling station and there were some Russian members who did tell me as they knew that I was the marshal, two of them who used to lodge at my house, that the Russians are planning to attack.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it correct that people organised themselves and waited for an attack by the Russians?

MR MATELA: Yes, during that week people were heavily armed patrolling day and night.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well you have already been told that Mr Manong denies that he addressed a meeting that day, I mean that one.  And did somebody there, did you hear anybody say
here comes Inkatha to attack or you didn't?

MR MATELA: No there is no one who said that Inkatha is coming.  But what I heard is that Inkatha and the rightwingers might come as well and the Russian vigilante group.  But on that particular day I never heard anything about Inkatha.

JUDGE WILSON: You see in your application you write about "from alleged rightwingers and vigilantes calling themselves Inkatha", you make no mention of the Russians in your application.

MR MATELA: In my application I have explained that I had already heard that Inkatha is coming to attack us.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So are the Russians the vigilantes?

MR MATELA: The Russians are the people that I know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No I'm asking you whether the Russians are the vigilantes who were - when you speak of - should we understand the Russians as being the vigilantes or should we understand that there were so-called vigilantes and apart from the so-called vigilantes there were Russians, I just want to know whether it's the same grouping or not.

JUDGE WILSON: That's not what he says.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, but that's why I am asking him.

MR MATELA: maRussia was a group that used to dress in blankets but on this particular day I saw -  on this one day I saw the Russians holding a meeting with the police, they were thugs, and that is when I became scared when I heard that they will be coming to attack us.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am not asking you about whether the Russians were coming to attack, I wanted to clear something in my mind which confuses me, I want to be clear with it, I want to know whether when you speak of the vigilantes you
are not referring to the Russians, that's just what I wanted to clear up.

MR MATELA: I am referring to the group called the Russians and just normal thugs who attack people at night.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Immediately before these people, the deceased arrived in the area, were there in fact people already patrolling the area, in particular the comrades?

MR MATELA: Yes patrols were already on.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You don't know anything about the allegation that Inkatha worked with Whites and that the Whites were IFP spies, do you know anything about that or you don't?

MR MATELA: I was just hearing that in the radio that there were White people who were smearing their faces with ash and they were killing the ANC comrades.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: And these people were their faces smeared with ask?

MR MATELA: No they didn't smear their faces.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Matela just tell us something about the Russians, were they a political organisation at the time or were they affiliated to any particular organisation?

MR MATELA: The Russians were not a political organisation, it was just a group of thugs that were attacking people in the township.  It was a group formed by Black people.  They didn't belong to any party.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Manong, in the criminal court, this is reflected in the judgment by the court, with reference to the existence of turmoil and uprising in the area, the Judge summed him up as saying that he only referred to the presence of taxi violence and the presence of the Russians
in the area, what is your response to this statement by Mr Manong?

MR MATELA: What I know is that at that time there were rumours that Russians and White people would be coming to attack the township and the IFP.  This was said by Mr Manong and we also explained this in the meeting and everybody in the meeting, the comrades that were present, were airing their views on this matter and the matter of the PAC members that were killed by the Russians was also raised, and therefore it was said that we must try and defend ourselves.  What he said I think it's a lie.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What he said in court surprises you, are you saying it is not the truth?

MR MATELA: I believe it is not true because I knew of the existence of the Russians, about the taxi violence that I am not aware of.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is a function of a marshal?

MR MATELA: The duty of the marshal is to guide people as to how to work and to behave and to make them aware of freedom and as to how should our townships be developed like White townships and there shouldn't be any racial discrimination.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct by summing up your explanation as meaning that the function of a marshal is that of a political educationist?

MR MATELA: Yes it's true, a marshal is someone who teaches people about politics.  We just don't focus on one thing, there's a lot of things that we do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now does a marshal have any power to give an instruction or an order to members of the organisation like telling them to attack or telling them to stop attacking?

MR MATELA: No Sir, the leader has got such powers and the Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now Japi Mosese, Michael Maleme, Blackie Shuping and others, they testified in the court a quo, do you remember their evidence?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you say their evidence is the truth as it was told in the court a quo, pertaining to your involvement?

MR MATELA: The evidence they gave was denied.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you knew what the truth was?

MR MATELA: The truth is what I am saying of the Truth Commission.  In the court in those times telling the truth wouldn't help you.  You would be fighting a losing battle.