Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

INTERPRETER: Thank you.  Please continue.  Willem gave us rounds of ammunition known as LG and SSG.  We used them to shoot the UDF, and he said we should finish them off within the spur of the moment.  We shot them with the shotguns.  Willem de Wet himself was using an R1 assault rifle.  Members and followers of the IFP were using self-made guns.  We shot the people until we felt that we had succeeded, as I had already explained that it was quite difficult to assess and see how many people had been killed.  We could only detect by the funerals or the number of funerals that people were getting finished.  Even the following day the same thing happened.  We also launched a counter-attack, and the situation became calm for quite a few days.  Then at the end of December 1988 we were told that one member of the IFP, Mrs Ngoma, said they do not need us in Mpumalanga.  Those words were relayed to us by Lieutenant van den Heever and Sergeant Roos.  At that time they said we should pack and go, and two lorries came to fetch us.  That was when we went out of the Mpumalanga township.  When all this was happening a certain group which was newly trained was coming from Cape Town, and we were quite a large group.  They were also members and followers of the IFP.  There wasn't even a single member of the UDF.  We came back from Mpumalanga.  We came to Mpumalanga on the 1st, that is in 1989, and we were stationed at Oribi Police Station, and we were divided into two groups.  We worked with others who had remained at 'Maritzburg.  Now we had four groups, A Relief, B Relief, C Relief, as well as D Relief.

INTERPRETER:  Which officers were in charge of each of those groups?

WITNESS:   There would be a member who would be a charge within that particular group.  In my group the person who was commanding was Sergeant Hamilton.

INTERPRETER:  And of the other groups?  Do you know?

WITNESS:   They also had their own leaders and commanders, but others were warrant-officers.  I am not really sure as to what their names were.  As we were still working six months lapsed, and we heard that the situation was tense in Greytown.  We were also chosen to go and work at Greytown, and there were three of us together with three white policemen in our group, so all in all we were six in our group.  We were using two vans.  In my van was Halalisani Zulu, M E Zondi, Mark Barnard, as well as myself.  We stayed at the camp.  Whenever we could hear gunshots we would go and investigate, and we would get bodies, dead bodies.  We would patrol and never get any perpetrators.  At times we would come in the middle of the fight, and whenever the van approached they would run away.  And we would come and pick the guns up and load them into the van, and leave the scene with the guns.  Mark Barnard used to tell us that we should take them to Mr Zondi, and he would sell the guns to Mr Zondi.  And Mr Zondi would buy the guns, and we each were given R200,00.  There was absolutely nothing that we could do, because we knew that we were supposed to kill UDF members which wanted to overthrow the government.  Mr Zondi was one of the members of the IFP.

INTERPRETER:  Do you know what his first name is?

WITNESS:   I don't  know whether the Zulu name would be appropriate.  I don't know whether it's his nickname, but it's Mkatheni Zondi.

INTERPRETER:  Please continue.  Where does this man now live?

WITNESS:   I heard that he is staying at Mathimatholo, no longer at Greytown.

INTERPRETER:  Continue please.

WITNESS:   We even knew that the guns that were being sold were going to kill people who wanted to overthrow the government.  We worked at that place up til 1990, and the last time I worked at that place, that is Greytown, was when Warrant-Officer O'Connell arrived.  He took one of the members of the IFP, he gave him a small rifle, a P38, and he said he should take this and shoot next to Mzolo's place, who was a member or leader of the ANC, so that we could see whether they wouldn't launch a counter-attack so that we could get the AK47s.  We got one AK47, which I don't know the end of it because O'Connell was using this AK47.  We went back to Greytown and we continued with our work.

INTERPRETER:  Which O'Connell is this?

WITNESS:   I do not know his first name, because they had name plates, and they would have their surnames but not their names on the name plates.  But I can identify him because he is within this hall.

INTERPRETER:  Please calm down.  Please just let the witness continue with his evidence.  Sorry, this Warrant-Officer O'Connell, was he with you in the Riot Unit?  This Warrant-Officer O'Connell, was he with you in the Riot Unit?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  He was one of the members who was working with the Riot Unit, and he was a highly respected official.

INTERPRETER:  Please continue.

WITNESS:   We went back to Greytown.  We continued with the job that had been assigned to us in 'Maritzburg.  Then in 1990 ... (incomplete)

INTERPRETER:  (Inaudible) ... us about 1990.  Mr Madlala, the events we're talking about here today were the Seven Day War.  That was in March 1990.  You've said that during 1990 you were in Greytown.  You may well be confused about the actual dates that you were in Greytown.  Is that possible?  I just see that you're trying to piece together what you're saying from your statement.

WITNESS:   Yes, I can see that I made a mistake.

INTERPRETER:  In any event ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   We had not yet gone to Greytown.

INTERPRETER:  Did you go to Greytown after the Seven Day War?

WITNESS:   That is correct, because immediately thereafter, that is in 1990 when this happened, that is the Seven Day War, I was suspended from work.

INTERPRETER:  Please tell us about what.  What happened in 1990?  In your statement you said it was in 1991, but clearly that's wrong.  It must have been in 1990.

WITNESS:   Then in 1990 there was a meeting or a rally which was held in Durban.  After the rally, when the people who were coming back from the rally in a lot of buses, it was rumoured that the buses were shot at, and at that time it was a usual occurrence that there would be meetings.  And the following day there would be questions as to how many people were killed the previous day.  On the 27th we heard a horn, that is the horn that was calling us to go and fight, because they would always blow this horn whenever there was an imminent attack, and this ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER:  Sorry, just to put this in context.  Where were you when you heard a horn?  Were you at home?

WITNESS:   I was at home on that particular day.

INTERPRETER:  You weren't on duty?

WITNESS:   No, I was not on duty.

INTERPRETER:  Please continue.

WITNESS:   Then that very same year we were called that there was going to be an imminent attack.  We armed ourselves and we proceeded to the chief's place to try and find out what was happening at the chief's place.  And when we got to the chief's place we saw the chief's car, as well as the induna.  The induna told us that the people were being finished off at KwaMphumuze.  They were killed by the ANC, and we should go and assist them.  There was quite a large group of us, because quite a number of people were not going to work.  There were boycotts because the buses had been shot at the previous day.

INTERPRETER:  This induna that addressed you, who was that?

WITNESS:  It was David Ntombela.

INTERPRETER:  Please continue.