Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: Now whilst we are on this, Mr Barnard - at B93, Mr Chairman, says that this was the third of the five steps and you will recall because you mentioned Mr van Zyl's evidence, that if I remember correctly Mr van Zyl told us that he didn't know what one and two were, he was merely asked to do this one, three.

MR MARTINI: No, Chairperson, Mr van Zyl said that he didn't know of any other steps, all he knew was that he was told to go and place this foetus.  He knew of no other steps in this so-called plan which Mr Kahanovitz had put to him at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he just had a sort of ad hoc involvement in it.

GEORGE BIZOS: He came in the middle so to speak, he didn't know what happened - if this was number three, he did not know what one and two were.  But Mr Botha says - I beg your pardon, Mr Barnard says in B93, Mr Chairman, that step number four would have been the hanging up of  dead hyena and step number five would have been the killing by poison of Mr Trevor Tutu.  Now was that approach made to you?

EDWARD WEBB: I only know of one step and that is the baboon foetus which was put in the garden, I don't know about the steps one to five.

GEORGE BIZOS: We'll come back to this and what the purpose of this was, when we deal with the Tutu matter, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask a question, Mr Bizos, sorry to interrupt.
	You've said that you wouldn't dispute that this was a Region 9 project.  Now when Region 6 was established, my understanding was that Region would deal with internal matters and the other regions that existed, their business was out of the country, how could it then come about or why should it ever come about that Region 9 would then involved itself in an internal matter, would dip into Region 6's jurisdiction?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson, I really can't answer you on that.  Maybe they needed help, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes because it would see that that whole project relating to Bishop Tutu would have been local, I mean national, inside South Africa.

EDWARD WEBB: It should have been local.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Bear with me for a moment.
	Did you know Lawrie Nathan?

EDWARD WEBB: Excuse me?

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know or heard of Lawrie Nathan?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: He's also an ECC person, a prominent ECC person, also a person that would have deserved special attention from a General.  You'd never heard of him?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever discuss the End Conscription Campaign with Verster or anyone else?

EDWARD WEBB: It's possible, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: What does that mean?

EDWARD WEBB: It's possible that perhaps we said that we didn't like it, it was affecting our military powers, it keeps some recruits away from our Forces.  So it's quite possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wasn't it a burning issue for a General?

EDWARD WEBB: No, it was not a burning issue, we still had enough recruits for Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: But if my memory serves me correctly, by '89 this campaign had really taken off, there were meetings at various places quite openly declaring "We will not join the Army" and they were burning their call-up papers publicly and they were making rude remarks about the Minister of Defence and the Generals.  It wasn't a small secret organisation, it went public.  Was it not a matter of grave concern to you and didn't you discuss it with Verster?

EDWARD WEBB: Once again I say It's possible that we discussed it in general.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall discussing it?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, but it would have been somewhere, perhaps not with Verster, perhaps I discussed it with somebody else because the End Conscription Campaign, we didn't like them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well and you know that the Cape Provincial Division not far away from here, made a finding that your Army was running a campaign of dirty tricks against the ECC people out of the Castle here in Cape Town, do you recall that?

EDWARD WEBB: It's possible, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You don't recall it?

EDWARD WEBB: Special Forces weren't involved.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we'll have to look at the report whether they identify which section of the Army it was.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, I agree.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now why would Peaches, a unaware member of the CCB, be monitoring Mr Lawrie Nathan?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we know why Mr Peaches monitored other people, any reason to believe that he would have monitored Mr Lawrie Nathan for any other reason?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Peaches it's common cause, was a gangster, is he the sort of person that you would have allowed to gather intelligence for your CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: That question has already been answered this morning.  No.

GEORGE BIZOS: The reference to Peaches monitoring Mr Nathan, Mr Chairman, you will find in B194.
	Ever heard of Jay Naidoo?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, well we know who he is now, but not at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.  At that time he was perhaps doing a much more prominent job than he's doing now, he was the Head of Cosatu, or if he was not the Head, he was one of the big guns in Cosatu.  Now was that an enemy of the apartheid State?

EDWARD WEBB: They were certainly a thorn in our flesh.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and what do you do with thorns in your flesh at the time, what did you do with them?  You sent Mr Barnard for the purposes of murdering him.

EDWARD WEBB: I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which you will find in B121, Mr Chairman.
	Why would Mr Barnard go to Mr Jay Naidoo?  For what innocent purpose would he monitor him other than for the purposes of murdering him?

EDWARD WEBB: I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know Mr Essa Moosa?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well he's now a Judge of the Court in this division, but at the time he was a prominent attorney, closely associated with Mr Dullah Omar and he was involved in what you would have called terrorism trials.  Why was Peaches monitoring Mr Essa Moosa?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you think of any innocent purpose, having regard to what Mr Peaches was engaged to do, as to why he should be monitoring Mr Essa Moosa?

EDWARD WEBB: I can't comment because I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You heard at that time of Andrew Boraine?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did I give you the reference, Mr Chairman, of Essa Moosa?  Sorry.  B196, paragraph 22.
	I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer about ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he doesn't know Andrew Boraine.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't know.  Wasn't he one of the leader of the UDF?

EDWARD WEBB: I told you I didn't know him, so how can I tell you what his position was.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why would he be monitored by Peaches on the instructions of van Zyl?

EDWARD WEBB: As Slang van Zyl.

GEORGE BIZOS: We have - and he said he was monitoring him, if we remember correctly, so that he could put forward as to whether he was a suitable project for elimination or not.

EDWARD WEBB: But then you have the answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but now you see what I want to know from you and what the Committee will want to know from you, I would submit, is whether you are telling the truth that these and another ten or so instances that I'm going to put to you, were kept a secret from you if the purpose of the monitoring was to eliminate them.  In any event, can you think of any reason why the CCB should be monitoring Andrew Boraine and why van Zyl should have spent good money on Peaches who was getting an allowance, bonuses and things and promises of larger sums to monitor Andrew Boraine?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.