Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

MR JANSEN: No, I accept that Mr Chairman, but please understand the following.  There has been a long ongoing debate before many of the other Committees and the original Committee as to what extent is evidence in other Committees admissible in a particular hearing and to what extent can reference be made to evidence in another hearing and how is that evidence introduced in a later hearing.
	My problem is the following Mr Chairman, and I take issue with you there, with respect as far as whether if he had taken orders or whether if there is no opposition to his allegation that he was under orders, there are Amnesty Committee judgements on record saying that people's allegations that they were acting under orders, were not corroborated by those people whom they said, gave them the orders.
	It is in fact crucial for a person in, especially of a lower rank, in the Security Forces or in any liberation movement or resistance movement, to establish at some or other forum, that they were acting under orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, next week we have an applicant who is going to be involved in 24 weeks of hearing.  I have read his papers for next week, and he is giving, he has put up about six pages relating to his participation in connection with an incident that took place in the Transkei.
	Now, if your approach is followed, would we then have to allow potentially weeks and weeks and weeks of that person being asked questions about dozens and dozens and dozens of other incidents, which have got nothing to do with the hearing next week?

MR JANSEN: No, Mr Chairman, and I want to conclude here on the following.    What I will ask you then for, is a ruling because I can assure you the one thing that I have not in this entire process indulged in, is long, lengthy examination in either chief or cross-examination.
	It will certainly not take weeks, I unfortunately know that in many cases cross-examination have taken weeks or at least ...

CHAIRPERSON: What I am meaning is with next week, that example I gave, I might have a hundred Attorneys present here, asking for half an hour.

MR JANSEN: Yes, but the alternative Mr Chairman, is that at each and every hearing where these junior officers are, they will then be seeking that half an hour in 30 different hearings, instead of going to one hearing and each seeking their half an hour at that hearing, that is what the debate has been about.
	There has still not been a ruling on that, even though we have asked the original Amnesty Committee far back as 1997, to make a ruling on some of these issues.  I take it, and I certainly don't want to create the impression that I here want to side-track this hearing which really at the end of the day, seems to be about a jail break and nothing more, on issues in general.  All I am stating on record now, firstly, that I would be requiring of yourself and your Committee to make a ruling that I am not entitled to ask these questions here, because I can't be seen at another hearing saying well, there was the Commander of the Eastern Cape testifying about what happened in the Eastern Cape, and you know, you just let things go.
	Then I want a ruling about that point, number 1, that I am not allowed to go further than what is strictly the facts of this application, and secondly then I just want to place on record that this issue will be raised at a later stage and I can foresee that we will either be seeking Gen Van der Westhuizen or Colonel Van Rooyen's voluntary assistance in our application or we will have to compel them somehow.
	I have no other submissions in respect of that, because other than the purposes of asking about another operation, I have no other purpose here, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Jansen, Mr Knoetze, do you have anything to say?

MR KNOETZE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I would just like to say that I find it strange that my learned friend attends this meeting for that purpose, I am not sure who he is funded by, but if that is his only reason for attendance, perhaps he should have made contact with us before and he could have saved whoever the expense of being present.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other submissions from any other of the legal representatives present?

MR PENZHORN: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR VAN DER HOVEN: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any reply Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No, I don't know why my learned friend finds it strange.  I just want to place something on record there, that this has been an ongoing problem of which I think my learned friend is ignorant, as to what exactly the status of evidence given at other Committee meetings, and I am not taking it any further than that, Mr Chairman.
	I will just want, just the other problem that I want to place on record is, one of the problems of the process is we don't know what other incidents or other Operations Gen Van der Westhuizen has asked amnesty for.  We don't know whether he has come here, or whether he only asks for Katzen or whether there are other incidents that he asks for.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no we don't know that ourselves either.
	I see that it is now five past eleven, this will be an opportune time to take the tea adjournment and then we will resume again at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (still under oath)