Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I think that came out when there was this question that they were not happy, but initially he said that he was at home when Morapapa came.  It may well be, Chairperson that he did not want to operate at the East Rand when Morapapa came, because that was his testimony that he was at home when Morapapa, Moses Motapo came, but I think he was trying to, when he was asked by a Member of the Committee, Adv Bosman, that can you tell us about this disgruntlement and then is the time when he said look, they were supposed to operate in the East Rand and there was this problem.  So I think when Morapapa came, Chairperson, not all of us, Chairperson will articulate the proceeding in the same way, put it in same way, in a proper perspective, but when Morapapa came he was disgruntled with what was happening in the East Rand and the problem that I was referring to was happening in the East Rand where there was this problem, so definitely he was not doing anything, he was sitting.  When the Senior Commander came to him to come to the Northern Transvaal, then he gladly accepted to come in the Northern Transvaal because there was this problem in the East Rand where he could not operate.

ADV BOSMAN: In his statement to the Magistrate, he proceeded to say and he was disillusioned or disgruntled and that is why he turned to robbery.

MR MBANDAZAYO: True Chairperson.  Chairperson we know what was happening Chairperson and we have said many a times that, you know most of the time the statements which are made to the police and to the Court are not necessarily correct too because everybody wants to get out from trial, that's what is uppermost when you are arrested, you want anything that will free you.  Definitely Chairperson, everybody knows what was happening there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're not going to get freed really if you say to the Courts:  "Well I was frustrated, so I turned to robber", I mean that's digging your hole deeper rather than trying to ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I'm just coming to that point.  Chairperson definitely there was no running away that they were members of APLA.  They could not run away because the police have all the data about the members of APLA, so that one they could not run away, but they can run away from the fact that what they did, they did it on behalf of APLA or PAC, that they can hide, Chairperson.  As Col Poni put it, in order - it depends on the circumstances whether, if you divulge us, you won't sacrifice some of the operatives, so it depends on the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand and we've dealt with many of these matters.  During the apartheid regime it was very politic to cover up the fact that you, that the offence that you were charged with was done with a political motive, that you were acting for APLA or for MK because that, at that time, would have been an aggravating factor, it would have made things much worse for the accused person in those Courts, but at the time of this trial, political activity, there was no reason tactical reason in a trial to hide the fact that you were acting politically.  In fact at this stage it would probably have been to your benefit to say:  "Well look, I did this in the fight for the struggle and on behalf of APLA and it wasn't my own."  It would have been changed - because of the change in dispensation from an aggravating factor, to a mitigating factor.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I may not agree with you, Chairperson, it depends on the individuals, even to persons who are presiding, some of them, to others it was a ...(indistinct) factor because there was the political dispensation at that time, so it depends Chairperson on who was presiding, so one may not say if you divulge it then you'll say:  "Look, what you have been fighting for, it was just on the door, you were going to have election", so it's an aggravating factor to others, it depends on who is presiding Chairperson.  I wouldn't agree with you that it was a mitigating factor, Chairperson, but I want to dwell more, Chairperson that, you know we had - I don't want to, because there are still going to be hearings on other matters, we know what had happened, most of the people have made confessions on something they have never done and it has come up to this TRC where people come up and say:  "Look, it was me who did that", they never did it and they were convicted on the confessions.  I'm not saying everybody, Chairperson, no I'm not generalising, but that should be taken into account.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson because some - you know those people who were arrested are not sophisticated people, they would buy any story that:  "If you say this look you'll be free and you'll not be sentences heavily".

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, I accept that and I know from my experience on the Panel that that indeed happened, but it's just within this particular context that I put the question to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, no, no, I do understand but I wanted to elaborate more that it cannot be put on the applicant to say:  "Look if you have said this" because definitely my understanding, even myself Chairperson, if I can put myself in the shoes of the Judge, anybody who's doing anything political at that time when the elections were at the door, it would have been an aggravating factor because the party which he belonged to was participating and they were coming for election, so definitely one would hide that because definitely it would put him into problems.
	So it's my submission that, Chairperson, definitely the point that they were hiding definitely may have helped them in getting very harsher sentence then, but it is subject - it's a debatable issue Chairperson, but it's my submission that, Chairperson, definitely one understands why - I do understand why they ran away from that fact that what they did at that time, they were doing it for political purposes.  
	Now coming to the other aspect, Chairperson, which has been fully canvassed and what I'm trying to say is that the statement which has been made by the applicant to the police, definitely Chairperson, one would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about both?