Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Thursday, 17th of June 1999, we are continuing with the amnesty applications of N.R. Nkwenkwe and 16 others.  Mr Obose, who is the next witness?

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, it is Mr P.A. Loni, number 2 on the index.  The application appears at page 9 to 15, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.    Mr Loni, please rise and switch on your microphone by pressing the red button.  Can you give your full names for the record?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I am Pumulela Archibol Loni.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you, Your Worship.  Mr Loni, you are attached to the South African Police Services, is that correct?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What rank do you hold and where are you stationed?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I am an Inspector.

MR OBOSE: Where are you stationed?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I am at Stutterheim, Stock Theft Unit.

MR OBOSE: During March 1994, where were you stationed?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I was in Zwelitsha in the Murder and Robbery Unit.

MR OBOSE: What rank did you hold during March 1994?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend the meeting of the 22nd of March 1994 at Bisho College, Police College?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, I attended the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that that meeting was called by the then Commissioner of Police, Gen Nqoya?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I heard that there was a meeting, but I never attended a meeting that was held in the morning, the one that was called by Gen Nqoya, I only came late, at about four in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: What did you find happening at the meeting when you got there?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: The hall was full, there was no space for me to get in and the people were singing the freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: Could you manage to get inside the hall?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, I did not, I could not get inside the hall because the hall was so full.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in the singing or not?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, I participated outside, singing.

MR OBOSE: And the sloganeering that was going on?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Were there any slogans regarding Brigadier Gqozo that were shouted there?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, there were some.

MR OBOSE: What slogans?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: They were saying "down with Gqozo", or "away with Gqozo."

MR OBOSE: Did you in any other way participate in this meeting, do something, be sent to do something, etc?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes.

MR OBOSE: What did you do?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: An instruction was issued to go and fetch the senior Policemen to bring them to the hall.  I also participated in fetching some of them.

MR OBOSE: Who gave this instruction, that is Officers being collected?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: What I heard from the loudspeaker, I heard Inspector Mfene's voice through the loudspeaker.

MR OBOSE: Who did you fetch?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I went to fetch Gen Nqoya.

MR OBOSE: Who else?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: And Captain Hlela.

MR OBOSE: The one who became the Commissioner at some stage or not?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, not the one, that is his younger brother.

MR OBOSE: Who else did you fetch?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Those are the only people, and Gen Nqoya's wife.

MR OBOSE: Just tell us a little bit more about your fetching Gen Nqoya.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: When they were announcing, they said if we do not find the person there in his house, we should take his wife or child so that we can cause panic to that particular person, and then that particular person would end up coming to the hall.  When we got to Gen Nqoya's house, he was not there and the wife told us that she knew nothing about his whereabouts and then we took the wife and the child, we took them to the College.

MR OBOSE: Why was Gen Nqoya needed in the meeting, what you can recall?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: He was the main person in the Police Force in Ciskei and he was very close to Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: What was he to do in the meeting?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: What was more important there, as I heard, they wanted all the Police to be there, including Gen Nqoya so that Gqozo should feel isolated and he should step down, that is what we wanted.  We wanted him to be able to call the other Police, because he was the one who had a final say when it comes to Police.

MR OBOSE: Did you, yourself, agree with this idea that Gqozo step down?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, I was for that that Gqozo should step down.

MR OBOSE: Did Gen Nqoya eventually get to the hall where the meeting was held?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, he came to the hall.

MR OBOSE: Did you bring him to the hall?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, we brought him to the hall.

MR OBOSE: Where did you find him?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: We found him in the ministerial complex, he was kept there by soldiers and Police.  We took him to the hall.

MR OBOSE: With whom were you?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: The people whose names I can remember were Inspector Mzigeliso, Inspector Kolele.  The people who were there were the members of the Murder and Robbery Unit, those are the people that I can still remember.

MR OBOSE: Where exactly in the ministerial complex did you find him?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: He was kept in the guard post, the one next to the gate.

MR OBOSE: Did the soldiers tell you why he was there, I mean at the guard post, not in his house or  in one of the ministerial houses there?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, the soldiers told us that he was coming from the State house where Brigadier Gqozo was, but I don't know how did he get to the guard post.

MR OBOSE: Did it seem to you that the soldiers knew that the Police were looking for Gen Nqoya or not?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: When you took him from the guard post, did you tell him why you wanted him at the meeting?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, he was told that all the Police were in the hall and it was said that he is the one who called the Police and he left saying he would come back and he never came back.

MR OBOSE: Who told him this?  Who told him that, who spoke to him at the guard post?  Was it yourself or somebody else within your group?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: It was not myself, but I cannot remember who exactly told him, because everyone at that time was talking, we were all talking all at once.  I cannot remember exactly who uttered those words, but something like that was mentioned that he was the one who called the people to the hall and then he just disappeared and the people were waiting for him there.

MR OBOSE: Did he resist?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, he never resisted.

MR OBOSE: Okay.  Roughly what time was this when you found him at the guard post?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: It was late in the evening, I think it was about ten o'clock, approximately ten, but I think it was very late.

MR OBOSE: Okay, in the hall, was he questioned or what happened?  Did he just get seated and everybody ignored him?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: In the hall, he got inside with his bodyguards, those who were with him and the other Police, but I did not get into the hall, but I know that he got into the hall.

MR OBOSE: Did you find him with his bodyguards at the guard post?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, he was together with his bodyguards and soldiers and some Policemen.

MR OBOSE: Were his bodyguards armed?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I won't know, but at least each and every Policeman has got at least one gun or firearm.

MR OBOSE: Okay.  Was he assaulted in any way?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: During my presence, he was never assaulted.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in any other way in the meeting, except for Gen Nqoya's fetching?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No.

MR OBOSE: This Captain Hlela, you also fetched him that particular evening?