Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct they would continue with investigations and we would then proceed doing our work as usual.

CHAIRPERSON: And looking for other persons?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes so.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were not told that: "Go and capture the deceased and return him to South Africa for interrogation"? Those were not your instructions?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That way I can put it. I don't know how I must put it. Because when we found him we were supposed to take him back to Barkley East.

CHAIRPERSON: You were going to give him to the Transkei police to interrogate him?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As the white man who was heading Dandala's group he was the one who would be part of those to determine what would happen to him as when this person is found.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may continue Mr Knight yes.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala when you received the order from Colonel de Kock to go down from Vlakplaas to Barkley East there were two other white officers that came to Barkley East with you from Vlakplaas. Can you recall their names?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes they were white people, there were two.

MR KNIGHT: Can you recall their names?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It must have been Adjutant Snor Vermeulen and whether it was a lieutenant I do not remember well but it was du Plessis.

MR KNIGHT: Now du Plessis and Vermeulen are those the policemen who were at Barkley East who Ndondo was to be taken to by Bra Mos?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The ones who were there it was that two and another policeman of Transkei, a white man who was working with Dandala. He was part of the security officers here. We found him at Barkley East. They were moving all of them together. It was those who were supposed to determine what must be done.

MR KNIGHT: So it was not your function to take part in the interrogation? Your job was to identify and bring to Barkley East and from there it would be left to the white officers as to decide which way it goes?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is what was supposed to happen.

MR KNIGHT: Now just a question I would like to ask you with regard to Vlakplaas. Is it true that Vlakplaas is a farm just outside Pretoria?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR KNIGHT: Were you ever allowed visitors at Vlakplaas or allowed to tell anybody that you worked for Vlakplaas?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No that was not allowed. Nobody would be visited there any way.

MR KNIGHT: In fact it was a secret base.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct it was a government secret base.

MR KNIGHT: Now when you returned to Vlakplaas at the end of that month after Ndondo had been killed did you get any reward directly or indirectly?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When I returned to Vlakplaas if I am not mistaken we were given R500 each, all three of us.

MR KNIGHT: That being yourself, Bra Mos and Shosha?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct.

MR KNIGHT: Now when you got the R500 as far as you can recollect and it is a long time ago was it specifically said this is for killing a person or was it just something that was given without any explanation?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say is that I think we were given the money because we had done a good job. That is what I think.

MR KNIGHT: But you were never told?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you regard this R500 as a reward for having killed the deceased?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: To me to be given that money shows to me that those who gave us the money seemed to think that we had done a good job.

CHAIRPERSON: On other occasions had you gone out on similar missions before? On previous occasions you had gone out to do some work for Vlakplaas had you not?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: You mean in other countries?

CHAIRPERSON: At certain occasions you would go out and go and work for Vlakplaas when you come back were you rewarded with money or something like that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No

CHAIRPERSON: So was this the first occasion when you were given a sum of money upon the return from your mission?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was the first time for us to come to Transkei yes.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now you continued to work at Vlakplaas until its disbandment. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I was working there until it was closed.

MR KNIGHT: Under what name did you work until its disbandment? Did you continue working under the name reflected in Annexure F?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I was using that name until Vlakplaas was closed.

MR KNIGHT: And from the last time you went to Umtata where the matter was postponed, the criminal matter you never heard about the Ndondo incident ever again?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I never got to hear anything about this again. I proceeded working and I never got to hear about it again.

MR KNIGHT: And you never faced any form of enquiry or disciplinary hearing resulting from that incident or your activities at Vlakplaas?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: After the closure of Vlakplaas there was nobody who came to me talking about this issue. Nothing, nothing. There was nothing.

MR KNIGHT: Now in 1994 you in fact received a retrenchment package from the police. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I got it.

MR KNIGHT: You say in your statement on page 79 of the record that you were in fact congratulated by the then Minister of Law and Order, Mr Adriaan Vlok. Can you recall this and can you recall in relation to what it was that he congratulated Vlakplaas people?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When he congratulated us because he used to visit Vlakplaas quite a lot of times and he would get reports from our offices there and hear what the Vlakplaas people was doing. That is why he was then congratulating us for work done.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions in chief.

MR KNIGHT: .

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose it is either you Mr Hugo or Mr Dilizo who would go first. Have you decided who is going to go?

MR HUGO: We haven't decided Mr Chairman but I am with the microphone in front of me I suppose it will spare us some time if I can proceed now. Then we don't have to play musical chairs and take a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dilizo do you have any objection if Mr Hugo commences his cross-examination of this witness? And then perhaps once he is finished you can take over?

MR DILIZO: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well thank you. Would you be in a position to proceed now?

MR HUGO: I am in a position to proceed. Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Shabalala how old are you now?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: 40, 45 I was born in 1956.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you born?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: 1956.

MR HUGO: Well Mr Shabalala then you are 42 years of age. Is that not so?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I agree.

MR HUGO: Now what is your correct date of birth?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: 14th of May.

MR HUGO: Yes of which year?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: 1956.

MR HUGO: Just for clarity sake will you just look at Exhibit E that was handed in. Have you got it in front of you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes. I do.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman I think he has Exhibit F in front of him. Exhibit E is the amended application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HUGO: Mr Shabalala you will see there that you have set out your identity number in paragraph 4. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Is this your correct identity number or is this the forged identity number, the number that was obtained later by the assistance from Mr de Kock?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I think the correct one is this one. This is the right one.

MR HUGO: Will you then just look at Exhibit F that is a copy of your identity book. And you see that the identity number there is exactly the same as it appears in Exhibit E. Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree. I can see these numbers are the same.

MR HUGO: So are you then saying that your identity number was never changed by Mr de Kock? It remained the same throughout the years?