Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR SEWPAL: My name is Sewpal, spelled S-E-W-P-A-L and the initial is V.  I appear for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sewpal.  And the Leader of Evidence?

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Yes, Mr Sewpal, is there anything you want to put on record?

MR SEWPAL: Thank you.  I think it's quite clear that the applicant is bringing an application for amnesty on the basis that the offence that he committed was committed with a political motive, or political objective.  I think that we have the duty to begin and in the circumstances I will call the applicant.  It will possibly be necessary for me to call two witnesses as well, those were the other accused that participated in the offence who are also here today.  I call the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Sewpal.

SIBUSISO ERIC TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sewpal.

MR SEWPAL: Thank you.

MR SEWPAL: Mr Tshabalala, how old are you?

MR TSHABALALA: 35 years old.

MR SEWPAL: Where did you live during 1990?

MR TSHABALALA: Estcourt.

MR SEWPAL: Were there any political parties that were active in that area during that period?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there were.

MR SEWPAL: Which parties were these?

MR TSHABALALA: The IFP and the ANC.

MR SEWPAL: Were you a member or sympathiser of either of these parties?

MR TSHABALALA: I was a supporter of the ANC.

MR SEWPAL: What other political party was active in the area at the time, you said?

MR TSHABALALA: It was ANC and IFP.

MR SEWPAL: Do you recall what the relationship was between these two parties at that time?

MR TSHABALALA: There was no good relationship, there was violence.

MR SEWPAL: Were you involved in any violence with the IFP, or are you aware of anybody else that was involved in any violence with them?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there were.

MR SEWPAL: Sorry, I'm not sure, were you involved in violence or do you know of somebody else who was involved in violence?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there are people that were involved.

MR SEWPAL: Is there any particular person that you want to tell this Committee about?

MR TSHABALALA: There were people who were fighting, ANC and IFP people.

MR SEWPAL: Alright.  Did you get yourself involved in the murder of the deceased in this case?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was present.

MR SEWPAL: Did you participate in the killing of the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.

MR SEWPAL: Now, could you please tell us very carefully and slowly how you got yourself involved in the killing of the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: The deceased was selling guns to the IFP.  Mandla's mother was killed because of IFP, killed her using those weapons which they've bought from the deceased.  We went to the farm because we were looking for the guns.

MR SEWPAL: Could you at this point tell us who is Mandla, who you mentioned just now?

MR TSHABALALA: Accused number 1, Mandla Khuzwayo, the one who is here behind me.

MR SEWPAL: What happened to his mother?

MR TSHABALALA: They killed her and they burned down the house together with her.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  Please proceed.

MR TSHABALALA: After they killed Mandla's mother, we went to the farm because we were looking for guns.  When we arrived on that farm, we found a white man.  He wasn't inside his house, he was near the kraal.

MR SEWPAL: Can you tell me, you said when "we" arrived, who else are you talking about?

MR TSHABALALA: Pilane Mutshiako, Mandla Tshabalala, the three of us.

MR SEWPAL: Now what did you go to this farmer's place for?

MR TSHABALALA: We were looking for guns or we wanted guns in that farm.

MR SEWPAL: And how did you plan to get these guns?

MR TSHABALALA: We planned that on our arrival there, we will catch the white man and take his guns.  Our intention was not to kill him, but to take his guns from him.

MR SEWPAL: What did you want to do with those guns?  Why did you want to take them away from him?

MR TSHABALALA: We needed them in our organisation.  We were the ANC and we didn't have guns, but IFP had guns because the white man was providing them with those guns.

MR SEWPAL: As far as you were aware, do you know where this white man was getting his guns from?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't know where he was getting the guns but all I know is that he was a soldier.

MR SEWPAL: How do you know that he was a soldier?

MR TSHABALALA: Sometimes we will see him in soldiers uniform.

MR SEWPAL: And now did you actually see him supplying firearms to the IFP, or how do you get this knowledge?

MR TSHABALALA: I was told so by Thulane Mutshiane, my co-accused.

MR SEWPAL: Now you mentioned in your amnesty application form that
"We did see him on one occasion where he sold hand guns and rifles to Inkatha Freedom Party supporters."
Is that statement correct?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is true, but he was seen by Pilane Mutshiako.

MR SEWPAL: But did you see him as well, or was it only Pilane who saw this?

MR TSHABALALA: Pilane saw him.

MR SEWPAL: Okay, so it's incorrectly recorded in the form then?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR SEWPAL: Okay, proceed.

MR TSHABALALA: We arrived in his farm.  He grabbed me and he pulled me down and he stood on top of my body.  Pilane Mutshiako came with an iron and hit him on his back of his head and then he fell down.  As he was lying down, we started stabbing him, whilst he was lying down.

MR SEWPAL: What happened after that?

MR TSHABALALA: After we finished stabbing him, there was a dog near his body and that dog didn't want to leave.

MR SEWPAL: As far as you are aware, was the deceased still alive at this time, or not?

MR TSHABALALA: I think he was dead.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  Proceed please.

MR TSHABALALA: We cut his body and we removed his liver and we gave the dog his liver because we wanted the dog to eat that liver so that it's attention is towards the liver and not to us.

MR SEWPAL: What did you do thereafter?

MR TSHABALALA: There was a fire in his house.  We took his body and we threw it in that boiler room.  We saw a car approaching and that car was with police.  We ran away and as I was inside the house, the police saw me and they took me from that house.  I was on top of the wardrobe inside the house.

MR SEWPAL: Before the police vehicle, did you at any stage enter the house of the deceased, you or any one of the other accused with you?

MR TSHABALALA: Before the police arrived, I didn't enter his house.  I only entered his house when the police approached.

MR SEWPAL: I see and did you find any firearms in his house or in the vicinity of his house?

MR TSHABALALA: No we didn't, we looked for them but we didn't.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  What happened thereafter?

MR TSHABALALA: Police came and they arrested us.  We were taken to the police station.

MR SEWPAL: How do you feel about the fact that you assisted in killing this person?

MR TSHABALALA: I feel a great remorse about my actions and I would like to apologise even to the deceased and to God and the family.  I know that what I've done wasn't the right thing to do.  It is very sad and also I would like to apologise to the community at large.

MR SEWPAL: What would you say your motive in killing the deceased was?

MR TSHABALALA: It is because of the violence that started when IFP killed Mandla's mother and in my view, we blamed the white man because he was selling guns to the IFP.

MR SEWPAL: That is the evidence of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sewpal.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Tshabalala, I take it that you were not involved in the violence between the ANC and the IFP, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.  I only took part when I saw that it was getting worse.

ADV SANDI: Can you just explain, what did you do when you saw that violence was getting worse?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't understand your question.