Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR WILLS: You would have been briefed or, I don't know what the military term is, maybe you can help me, you would have been told what was expected of you at Greyville.  An operation would have been planned.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: And what were you told?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was informed that Ndaba was due to meet somebody from his unit.  The meeting was to take place sometime during the course of that afternoon.  It was decided that the meeting should be attended by Ndaba and we were to monitor the meeting and if everything was to go smoothly we would leave it.  If the agent gave the sign and Botha informed us that the sign was to be the touching of the head, it would mean that the source presumed he was in danger and then Botha would tell us how to react and 90% of that reaction would be to affect an arrest of the parties that were all around the source at the time.

MR WILLS: Sorry there's a few things.  You say that at the stage that the signal went, it was only then that Botha would tell you how to react?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was my understanding.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So you didn't know what to do if the danger signal was given?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: React.

MR WILLS: But you'd have to wait for instructions first.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Were you told at any stage to make sure that if the danger signal was given that you were to react in such a way that you wouldn't cast suspicion, or you wouldn't create suspicion in the mind of the informer, Ndaba?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, we were informed to try and protect the fact that Ndaba was involved in the information leading to that, by our actions.

MR WILLS: And when were you told of this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: On departure for the operation.

MR WILLS: Why didn't you tell me that when I asked about your instructions earlier?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I answered that question as relevantly as I did, when I got it.

MR WILLS: Now you then arrested Shabalala and you say you and one of your colleagues took him back to the safe house in his car.  Who was driving that car?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was van der Westhuizen.  He drove the blue Corolla, Sir.

MR WILLS: And what did you do?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I stayed in the back holding Mr Shabalala's head down, so he couldn't see anything.

MR WILLS: Were you injuring him at that time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I wasn't injuring him at that time?

MR WILLS: Were you pointing a firearm at any part of his body at that time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I hadn't drawn my firearm.  I wasn't pointing my firearm, Sir.

MR WILLS: And can you demonstrate how you were holding him down?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was now, he had been pulled over.  He was on the back seat and I had my arms around him and I was holding him.  His head was between my legs and I was holding his head down onto the floor of the vehicle.

MR WILLS: And when you got to Verulam, the safe-house, you say you locked him in a room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: And what happened to Ndaba?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know what happened to Mr Ndaba.  Once we did that action with, at the Corolla, Ndaba went with Botha.

MR WILLS: Yes, but the evidence has been that he was also brought to that safe-house.  Were you not aware of that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I was aware of it once I was at the safe-house.  Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Well, sorry if I wasn't clear in my question.  When did you first see Ndaba again?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: At the safe-house.

MR WILLS: And what happened to him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was taken to a separate room.

MR WILLS: Was he also locked in the room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, he was.

MR WILLS: And who went into that room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I went into the room. Botha went into the room.

MR WILLS: So you directed your attentions towards Ndaba?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I was giving both parties my attention.

MR WILLS: I understood from your evidence that you left Shabalala in the room, locked, unattended.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: If he was locked unattended, I would doubt that.  Perhaps I had secured him, I handcuffed him.

MR WILLS: Yes.  What I'm trying to establish is that he was alone.  My inference from your evidence and correct me if I'm wrong, was that you locked him in the room and he was alone at that stage?  I would assume that you would at least have restrained him in some manner.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir I did, I handcuffed him formerly.

MR WILLS: But he was alone in the room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Initially I stayed with him, until other members came and then I would leave.

MR WILLS: So you were alone in the room with him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: The two of you, and you locked the room with you in the room alone with him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I secured him in the room Sir.  I see what the statement says, but I secured him in that room and if I had to leave that room, I would lock that room.

MR WILLS: Yes and you say you asked him no questions.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I had nothing to ask him.

MR WILLS: You in fact go further than that and you say you were instructed or advised that he was of no value, don't bother to ask him questions, that's how I understand.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: At the time that we were briefed of the operation there was no information, or nothing to ask him.  I was briefed as such.

MR WILLS: And who briefed you as such?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Capt Botha briefed me.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now you then, it seems, must have left him in the room and gone with somebody else into the room where Ndaba was?  Is that right?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I mingled in between the two throughout the course of the time.

MR WILLS: Well let me get to the point.  Were you involved in the room where Ndaba was questioned?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: So you don't know how Ndaba was questioned?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: You were never throughout the week involved in any situation where Ndaba was being questioned or interrogated by anybody?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, further during the week I was.  I thought you were talking about still that day.

MR WILLS: Yes, okay, well let's establish.  That day you weren't and further on during the week, when did you question Ndaba?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: During the week, well I spoke and interviewed with Ndaba. I never really questioned Ndaba.

MR WILLS: What were you talking about?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I would talk about personalities in Swaziland.

MR WILLS: What about?  Them playing golf?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, them being MK.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And why, I mean are you implying that this is not interrogation?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm saying it wasn't interrogation.

MR WILLS: It wasn't.  What is your definition of interrogation?  Just so that we can speak the same language, what is your definition of interrogation?  When I ask you the word, interrogate, what is conjured in your mind by that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What you are doing now, Sir.

MR WILLS: Is this interrogation?  This isn't interviewing?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: Now, you asked him about MK people in Swaziland. Is that right?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Amongst other questions.

MR WILLS: What else did you ask him?  I'm trying to find out what you asked him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it's many years ago, I would have been asking questions pertaining to my desk of MK Intelligence.  I can't recall for the life of me one question pertinently.

MR WILLS: So as I understand it, the focus of your questions was more to establish what he knew about what was going on in Swaziland in MK structures?