Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR NTSEBEZA: You would agree with me that it is quite a distance to get a lawyer from Pretoria to discuss rent, rental issues, from Cape Town, given that there were lawyers who represented him before he went into prison?

MR DU TOIT: Yes it is quite a vast distance, I know.

MR NTSEBEZA: You see the suggestion that I would like to put to you for your comment and I accept because I can't say anything differently, that you didn't meet him whilst he was in prison, is it fair to suggest that during that period of in communicado detention Mr Ngxobongwana was persuaded by the police to work for the police or on the side of the police and to discard any relationship with the UDF, what's your comment?

MR DU TOIT: Chairperson my view is, and that is my personal view, I can't speak on anybody else's behalf, but I don't think that that is what happened.  I never saw him whilst he was in prison and I don't think that the people who worked with him whilst he was in prison would have done that, it is possible of course but that is not what I think would have happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why do you explain this dramatic change in his attitude?   The first meeting that he holds he lambasts and deals in fact with the UDF in terms that suggest that he is now at war with them.  This is an organisation that he belonged to.

MR DU TOIT: That is because the New Crossroads residents had become embroiled in conflict amongst themselves and the people accused each other of being UDF or non UDF or whatever, so a division arose amongst the people of New Crossroads and his supporters and his followers reported to him what the causes for this would have been and the conclusion which I can draw is that he believed what his people told him.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Now finally maybe I want to ask the questions that Dr Ramashala was asking from you.  When you look back 11 years, almost ten years, do you think that the attack or the attacks by Witdoeke could have been prevented given that there were riot police, there was a unit of the army and that the full force of the South African Security Forces was equipped to deal with those situations adequately?
 Maybe the first day it could not have been prevented but an orgy that lasted three days do you think it is something that could have been avoided, or at least could have been prevented by the security forces with enough will on their part to do so?   
 And you must give your answer against the background of a court order that had been obtained immediately before the attack on KTC that specifically enjoined the police and the army, not only to participate in the attacks but to make sure that those attacks did not take place.   I am not accusing you because you are not on trial.  I am just asking you as a witness to reflect and to give what you consider an honest reply.

MR DU TOIT: Chairperson that is a question which a lot of people are thinking about.  I have also thought about this, what more could have been done, but as far as I am concerned and on the knowledge I had I don't know what the security forces could have done additionally.  I don't know whether they had enough manpower at their disposal.  I am not sure but I really and honestly don't know what more they could have done.  I believe that all agencies at their disposal had been utilised.

MR NTSEBEZA: Chairperson I am through with this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dumisa.  Just one little question, you described yourself earlier as someone who was concerned with the social welfare, social problems and you actually used that term very frequently earlier on in your presentation, how often did you go to the SACLA Clinic as someone who was concerned with those kind of issues in the community?

MR DU TOIT: I transported many people to the SACLA Clinic ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I mean yourself, for purposes of your own information gathering, someone who had the interests of the community at heart.

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember, I may have gone to the SACLA Clinic but I know that I definitely went to other clinics, but I honestly can't tell you that I went there or that I didn't go there, but it wouldn't have happened frequently ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You know that there's an expression in Xhosa that says (speaks Xhosa and does not translate it), you really sound like someone (.........).  Anyway we have concluded the questioning ...(intervention)

MR BRAND: Chairperson could you just translate the expression to him please.

CHAIRPERSON: No these devices are for purposes of interpretation.  I am not going to translate it.

INTERPRETER: Would the Commissioner please repeat it wasn't translated to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: In Xhosa there is an expression which literally says "you are running away with saddles", which figuratively means "you are running away with the truth".
Excuse me are you struggling with the interpretation - I was just saying in English, now, what it seems to us that you are being evasive.  That's really what it means.
 Thank you.  We have completed our questioning of Mr du Toit.