Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

AZHAR CACHALIA: My apologies.  You had noticed nothing and you stayed in your home for 45 to 60 minutes and thereafter Mkhize came, and you then saw some amabuto.  Please the reason why I ask the question is, I didn't know what amabuto is.  Can you explain to me what is amabuto please.

MR NDLOVU: That will be a Zulu.  Wait, when you see a group of men together, quite a big group, more than 50 so to speak, that will be amabuto in Zulu.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.  Now, just to clarify this position.  Your attorney talked about going up the steps and so on.  There are no steps in Zevenfontein that you go up on.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that came from the interpretation.  They are talking about the steep, the hill.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you very much I just thought I'd clarify that.  You are saying that you and Mr Mkhize then, from your shack, went towards the river.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are we going to go through his whole evidence-in-chief again?  Because we've heard it.  We don't need him to confirm everything he said Mr Cachalia.  We need to finish this application.  You can ask him questions but I don't think you need to take his notes and just get him to confirm his whole evidence-in-chief, it's a waste of time as far as we're concerned.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Quite clearly that is the position Chair, but I just want to put him in the context that he understands what we're dealing with.  In any event Mr Ndlovu, you said that you went down and you then came up, I want to put it to you why did you come up from the river again and why didn't you go along the river in one or the other direction and avoid the whole, as you put it, incident?

MR NDLOVU: The way things were happening, they were happening so fast and abrupt, and these things were happening quite spontaneously at the same time.  I think this happened in about 30 minutes time.  This is because of the situation that prevailed at that particular time.  So that to go astray was not easy, was quite difficult.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Are you suggesting that because of the hurry you didn't take the obvious route, this away from where the trouble was, was towards the trouble?  I just want to assist Mr Ndlovu.  You clearly could not cross the river because it was flowing very heavily, so the options that were available is to go up the steep hill as you call it or go along the river in either direction and you didn't choose the alternate but you chose to go back to where the trouble was.

MR NDLOVU: I don't know how to put this.  As I said and explained earlier on that there was no any other way to prevent this.  We are facing death itself.  There was no any other alternative route away.  It was death and shock.  When you are in that state you cannot reason well and normal

AZHAR CACHALIA: The death that was facing you was from the people that were bearing down on you when you were near the river.  Is that what you're saying?

MR NDLOVU: The death was coming from the way up, and as well as to ... we were either faced by going across the river, as I already said that it was overflowing, that was death.  And we decided to choose between the two devils, either that or the one that was facing us from the opposite direction, and decided to go the other way.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I just put to you this question?  Brown's house is, between Brown's house and the soccer field is where the shooting took place where people died.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is true.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now you had run from your shack towards the river.  Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And when you then saw people bearing down on you and you feared for your life.  Is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't, he didn't say he saw people bearing, he said they went down to the river, they couldn't cross the river.  They went to the river because they saw amabuto, they saw these ladies with babies all moving, there was obviously something going on.  Let's get out of here, they went down the river, they couldn't cross the river.  And then they saw a group of IFP people going up the hill and they joined them.  He didn't say they saw them bearing down on them and they were sort of running to escape immediate death.  Not at that stage.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As the Chairperson, states there.  I can leave it on that particular position.  You joined the group of people and you went to the soccer field where it happened.  Was ANC group at the soccer, on the other side of the soccer field?

MR NDLOVU: If I think well here, the stadium is on the side, just towards the side.  And right on the bottom there will be Mr Brown's shack.  But we went as far as Mr Brown's shack, we did not go beyond that point at that time when they started stoning us.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And firing shots at you?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did you see any handguns, any guns in the possession of the ANC supporters?

MR NDLOVU: No I would be lying, I did not see any firearms or guns.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you said there were several shots being fired at you and stones being thrown at towards you?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Cachalia, is it in dispute that there was this attack to the ANC and the IFP and the whole way in which it occurred, and that there was stoning and gunshots, is that in dispute?

AZHAR CACHALIA: It certainly is.

ADV SIGODI: Then why don't you just put it to the witness?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you ma'am.  Mr Ndlovu, I am saying that the witnesses will say that none of the ANC members had any guns, they were not armed, and they did not commence any war, as you put it.  What do you say to that sir?

MR NDLOVU: That is, that will be very confusing, or I will not quite understand that if they will contradict what I said, because I just told you and explained to you about the situation that prevailed and things that were happening, and what transpired at the time, and I know nothing else except what I told you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes sir, alright, the final question and I'll argue the probabilities later is that I've put this to Mr Sithole as you had heard yesterday and I'm putting it to you, that large number of people died and were injured and were all members of the ANC and none of the IFP members were injured or died.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.  Not even one person from our side died, but as far as the injury or the injuries are concerned, it's not true that some of the IFP never sustained injuries.  There were people who sustained some injuries as a result of them throwing stones at us, but not one of us got shot.  Some were hurt, sustained injuries on their heads, I saw them at Morningside.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Who were these people please?  Because yesterday we were told that none of them were injured.  None of the IFP people were injured.  Who did you see at Morningside that was injured sir?

MR NDLOVU: I would like to apologise on behalf of the person who, the person who, tendered evidence yesterday here.  I was arrested on Saturday.  As I said that some sustained injuries that will be Chezi, Visiline Zwane, as well as Nomiya.  Others I don't remember but I think there were than, if I think well I will say there were more than seven who sustained injuries resulting from the stone that were thrown.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you say none of them were shot?

MR NDLOVU: Unfortunately we were not shot.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you mean fortunately.

INTERPRETER: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu I am going to argue and if you wish to make a comment please make a comment I'm going to argue that it is improbable that any of the ANC people had guns because if they shot at you at least if people were not killed people would have bullet wounds and that injuries have not been established at this hearing or any other hearing.  Do you want to make a comment about that?