Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: That is correct.
2 QUESTION /...
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QUESTION INAUDIBLE ONLY AFRIKAANS AUDIBLE

ANSWER: Mr Chair I noticed that that was the way in whichthe question was put, it must be wrong because Mr Van Vuuren testifiedthat it was a "safe-house" and your family definitelydoes not go with you to a safe-house.   So that must be wrong.

JUDGE WILSON: : This is what you told your attorneys whenthey were filling up the application form, are you suggestingthey wrote down something you didn't tell them?

ANSWER: (ANSWER IN AFRIKAANS)

SISI KHAMPEPE: : ...mainly of the things which happened atthe incident in question, is it possible for you to tell us whenthe Government decided that the emergency regulations were noteffective enough to counter the efficacy of the ANC and decidedto eliminate all activists?

ANSWER: Mr Chair it is very difficult to imagine howthe Government thought that up, what we received was the counter-revolutionarystrategical actions which we had to take and the words were "fightfire with fire".   That meant that if a person really cameinto the spotlight as being an activist who caused problems, hehad to be eliminated.   Where the true elimination assignmentcame from, I don't know and I will have to lie if I try to tellyou.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Are you familiar with an institution calledtrevits?

ANSWER: I did hear about trevits but it was in main office,security main office, it was on a very secret level that trevitsexisted.   I did know about its actions but its real aim and goalor sittings I never attended, I never attended any trevits meetings.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : To your knowledge was Mr Thibedi identified
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as a target by trevits?

ANSWER: No unfortunately I can't answer this question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : ...to explain to us how information wasevaluated to assess its reliability in this case, in the instanceof Mr Thibedi?

ANSWER: I must explain the normal way of informationevaluation to you.   We had various sources that were codifiedafter, according to the veracity of previous reports we had received.  Before a person was selected for elimination we investigatedhis file and there must have been very bad actions and thingsin the file before such a decision was taken.   There were alsovarious informants in the community who were given orders to investigatea specific target, to investigate him and to inform us about whathe was doing and then we received weekly reports.   If the personwas very active, we even received more than one report per informantper week.   This information was then worked into one documentfor easy reference purposes and when such a person was identified,or when it was decided to take action against him I can assureyou that it came from many various informants.

CHAIRPERSON: This would be a convenient stage to take ashort adjournment, we will resume in 15 minutes.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: (No question audible, two languages comingthrough at the same time).

ANSWER: Mr Chair I unfortunately can't give you an answerto that it has been lasting for quite some time now, I cannotremember large parts of my past but I'm afraid I can't answerthis question.   I did go to a psychiatrist and
2 they /...
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they are busy compiling a report, I don't know if they can perhapsgive you an answer in a report.

<UNKNOWN>: All that is included in your application, yourevidence, is what was told to you by W/O Van Vuuren?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: What do you think the effect will be if sayafter this hearing, after the application, you then regain yourmemory and remember perfectly well that you were not involvedin this matter at all.   What do you think the effect thereofwill be?

ANSWER: I will certainly have nightmares but there isnothing one can do about that.   The only thing I can do now isto speak the truth as far as possible and to cast myself to themercy of the Truth Commission.

<UNKNOWN>: Your application, you took an oath which yousigned, what was that oath for?

ANSWER: That I will speak the truth as far as it is possibleto my knowledge.   I was told that I committed some deeds, mycolleagues would not lie to me, and therefore I accept that Itold the truth, that's why I took the oath.   I am prepared tostand by that which I said.

<UNKNOWN>: Page 171 of your application, the HonourableCommittee member did ask you about that, I'm still going backto it, the fourth paragraph where you say
  "Ek is meegedeel dat in die..................
(Quote continues in Afrikaans, interpreter not translating intoEnglish).
Who told you that?

ANSWER: Mr Van Vuuren told me this, it could be thathe referred to a different incident, there were many incidents. You saw my application and I unfortunately can't tell you
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anything else or give you a further explanation except that whichis in the application.

<UNKNOWN>: ...that if it is W/O Van Vuuren who conveyedthis to you he would have known about it and testified about ithimself?

ANSWER: I understand what you are asking and what youare aiming at, you must understand that we are talking about incidentswhich happened at least 10 years ago and in the meantime we allstarted new lives.  We all went out of the security police, therewere never any statements taken about what happened that nightand therefore I can't come to the Commission and tell the Commissionexactly what happened then.   For 10 years I have never thoughtabout the incidents, I never talked about them, it was never discussedin my house so you must accept that thoughts fade away.   We areonly human, it is possible to forget things like that.

<UNKNOWN>: ...because when W/O Van Vuuren was testifyingwhen I put the question to him about this, then he readily saidthat this is not what I said in my application, no you come andsay that he's actually the person who told that this happened.

ANSWER: Unfortunately I can't give you an answer to that.

<UNKNOWN>: ...under paragraph (b) I will read
  "Gerry Thibedi was possibly killed or injured and the houseis completely destroyed."

ANSWER: I also received that from Mr Van Vuuren, Mr Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: ...from Mr Van Vuuren he would have testifiedabout this when he was giving his own evidence, not so?

ANSWER: Please repeat the question.

<UNKNOWN>: ...came from W/O Van Vuuren it would have beenexpected of him to testify about it when he was giving his
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own evidence because he is the author of this.

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: ...state this in his application?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you know Gerry Thibedi before?

ANSWER: No I did not know him before, I did have thehonour of meeting him.

<UNKNOWN>: Now seeing that you were being told almosteverything by W/O Van Vuuren, would you agree with me then itmeans that the possibility exists that you may not have told theCommittee everything pertaining to this particular incident andthis would impact itself of full disclosure?   Would you agreewith me?

ANSWER: Mr Chair, everything that was told to me in whichI was involved, all the relevant facts were relayed in my applicationand I can't say anything more than that which is in my application.

<UNKNOWN>: When carrying out operations in other areas,let's take in this instance in Bophutatswana, do you get in touchor do you contact the police force in that particular area orcountry?

ANSWER: No they were never contacted, we went in undercover completely on our own.

<UNKNOWN>: I don't know how will you respond to this ifI put it to you that Gerry Thibedi will testify and part of hisevidence will be that 15 minutes after the explosion in his house,the police of Bophutatswana in the person of Gerry Mokubjana(?)arrived with other police on the scene.  Would you say it wasa coincidence?