Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

UNKNOWN: Now traditionally chiefs were directly or indirectly associated with ritual murder, so when chiefs were given political power by Pretoria, there was this fear that they will resort to the old practices and people actually had a case to vote when a Deputy Minister of Post and Telegraphs was arrested and convicted for having committed ritual murder.

CHAIRPERSON: The Deputy Minister of Post and Telegraphs of Venda?

UNKNOWN: Yes, and he was a chief.

MR NDOU: Could you mention his name?  Prof please don't be afraid to mention people's names because here the Committee wants to know the truth and they need to know exactly what transpired.  What was this chief's name?

UNKNOWN: He was called Chief Witbooi Ramovha.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that please?

MR NDOU: R - A - M - O - V - H - A

CHAIRPERSON: What was he actually convicted of?

UNKNOWN: For having ritually killed a certain principal of a high school.

CHAIRPERSON: Murdered?  Was that murder?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me make it easier then.  Was he convicted under the Anti Witchcraft Act or was he convicted under the ordinary laws?

UNKNOWN: Under the ordinary laws.

CHAIRPERSON: Of murder?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the nature of the murder was?

UNKNOWN: Ritual murder. Yes and he was sentenced to death and he was in fact hanged.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sentence was executed?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

UNKNOWN: That was in 1979, I think.  Yes, he was executed around 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

UNKNOWN: A certain member of the Tshivhase royal family was also sentenced to death.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which family?  Spell it please.

UNKNOWN: T - S - H - I - V - H - A - S - E

CHAIRPERSON: Royal family?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  He was arrested, found guilty and sentenced to death.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what was he convicted, also of ritual murder?

UNKNOWN: Ritual Murder, that is correct.

MR NDOU: And how did people feel about all these incidents?

UNKNOWN: This simply confirmed people's fears that they had always suspected that once placed under traditional leaders, upholders of traditions, they could experience what had just happened here.

CHAIRPERSON: This abuse of power?

UNKNOWN: In a way it was abuse of power but the point that you have to link this with their traditional or religious practises, this type of ritual murder is closely linked with some of the Venda religious practises.  So, once chiefs were given new powers, people feared that the old practises would be resuscitated.

MR NDOU: So people did not feel safe at all?

UNKNOWN: They didn't feel safe.

MR NDOU: Yes and what did they do?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to get something clear here in my mind.  From what you say so far, am I understanding correctly, that these chiefs with these powers had sort of discretionary powers as to the death sentence?  They could pick and choose who they would decide was to die and who not?

MR NDOU: Okay, perhaps maybe we jumped the gun somewhere.  The message that we're trying to convey is that chiefs were committing these undesirable acts, but it was difficult for them to be arrested because the people who were in power were chiefs themselves.  It was only with pressure from the people that prosecutions ensued and they were brought to book, but then still people were not satisfied because they felt that they were in the hands of traditional leaders, who still wanted to keep to the old practises, and they didn't feel safe because they felt that they could be killed at any time and nothing would happen unless they did something to get the work of justice running.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR NDOU: Now what did the people do when they realised they were not safe at all and that they were under very unsafe hands?

UNKNOWN: In many traditional courts old people were forcibly removed and replaced by young militants.

MR NDOU: So what you're saying is that the young people wanted to take over ruling the place by interfering with traditional courts, interfering with the chorus where the elders would normally sing?  Is that what you are saying?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NDOU: Now with all this, what did the youth want to achieve?

UNKNOWN: First of all they did not sort of have one outstanding leader who said "this is our policy", but when killing their own people, killing their own victims they would be shouting liberation slogans, viva so-and-so and they were not as organised as people who were fighting against enemies in urban areas, but rather at this place, once you were labelled a witch, young people in the area would start singing liberation songs.  This was quite new because traditionally young people were never involved in muti murder cases, in witchcraft cases, this is the first time in Venda when we saw young people adopting the responsibility of old people.  Traditionally young people are not supposed to take part in witchcraft cases or in ritual murder cases.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you surprised at the youth taking up this problem, after all most of the victims I understand were youths?  They were looking after themselves, not so?

UNKNOWN: We were surprised because it was quite new, but at the same time we understood why they were behaving that way.

MR NDOU: Now you will remember that after the three incidents that we've referred to in 1988, there was, do you remember that the schools stopped for about 2 months and government employees went on strike for about 2 months as well.  How do you read this?

UNKNOWN: There was just no government at all.  Workers did as they wished.  The whole legal set-up had collapsed.

MR NDOU: And did the youth want it to collapse even further, to bring it on its knees?

UNKNOWN: In a way at least it was Pretoria inspired the coup that later stopped the scales because when Ramushwana took over Pretoria wanted to create the sort of impression that you know youngsters had staged a coup when however it was a coup organised by Pretoria to lessen violence in this area.

MR NDOU: Did Pretoria come in because they realised that the present leaders could not contain the situation?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, that was in 19?

MR NDOU: 1991/92.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Ramushwana take over?

MR NDOU: I think it was 1992.  Yes, it was in 1992.
So there you had people dying in 1988 and Frank Ravele taking over from April 1988 until 1992, when the military government of Ramushwana came in.  Now in between, or rather let's say during the time when Frank Ravele was in power, you'll remember that more than 100 villages burned people that they suspected to be witches, do you remember that?

UNKNOWN: I do.

MR NDOU: And do you also remember that all these happenings took place within a time period of about 3 months?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NDOU: Now when you look at this whole scenario and you look at Venda, although it's a small area, the villages are sparsely set out over a radius of about 150 to 200 kilometres.  Is that right?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NDOU: And about 100 villages within a period of 3 months, burned people alleging them to be witches.  Now when you read all this, what do you read?

UNKNOWN: Well on the surface whoever came here at that time would have believed that every case was witchcraft related.  That was not true.  Certain people were killed out of jealousy.  People who were quite successful, people who were having the so-called orchards, small farms, people who had shops, people who perhaps had certain jobs outside their own home areas.  The local people who didn't want them would use local boys to say "drive Mr A out, he's a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would this jealousy be there?  Why would they be jealous over someone who has made it?