Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR STEWART: Because you'll see the members of the Committee and indeed myself, are struggling to follow sometimes which incident you're speaking of.  So my intention is to come back to those, so you can have an opportunity to think about them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before Mr Stewart, you do that, I'm sure we would like to get clarity from you as Mr Dlamini's legal representative, that after Mr Dlamini has acknowledged that the incident in question was in fact made a result of mistakes, you know, is he still persisting with his application for amnesty in respect of this incident, in view of the fact that he did not play any role at all in the incident concerned, because he says that this is an incident wherein IFP youths participated, and neither did he direct nor plan the said incident.

MR STEWART: Well Ms Committee Member, that's exactly my problem, I'm not sure which incident we're dealing with.  The one that he's explained, certainly - apparently he didn't have a role in, so I'll have to take instructions on that.  There would be no need - it would be pointless to apply for amnesty for something he wasn't involved in.  But the one that appears in the application which I'm referring to, he did have an involvement in.  So I will need to take instructions on that.
	My intention is to deal with a very separate incident, being the Woody Glen and Injubakazi incident which appears at page 388.  During the short adjournment I will be in a position to take instructions on that.  We should be able to clear it up and have it finished shortly there afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thanks, and perhaps Mr Dlamini, we only need to hear about incidents in which you were personally involved in any way with.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.

MR STEWART: So Mr Dlamini, I'm going to come back just now to the incidents which happened at or near Nwabe's house and in that Sinatingi area.

MR DLAMINI: Just go back to that.

MR STEWART: Okay but now - alright so if you put that aside in your head, now what we're going to deal with is the Woody Glen and Injubakazi incident.  Are you familiar with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do remember this.

MR STEWART: Now this is - Woody Glen is not far from here, Mpumalanga, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: And you mentioned in your application that there were fights - you described them as faction fights between the residents of Woody Glen Mpumalanga and residents of the Injubakazi area.  Can you explain what were those fights about, what were the differences?

MR DLAMINI: What I can explain is that there was a lot of fighting in the Injubakazi area, fighting between the ANC and the IFP.  As this fight went on, a lot of people were attacked by the ANC and they fled the area and came to Woody Glen.  When these fights happened I was by that time working at the police station here.

MR STEWART: Now you mention a person called Kay, do you know who that person is?

MR DLAMINI: Although I cannot remember his surname I knew him as Kay, a member of the IFP who was well-known in unit 4.  There were two persons by the name of Kay, there was a tall one and a shorter one.  His nickname was Mtui.  This is the Kay who came to me, being sent by Mudla Induna.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the Kay that came to you the tall one or the short one?

MR DLAMINI: The short one.

MR STEWART: This Kay, was he involved in any way with taxi's?

MR DLAMINI: Kay was a taxi owner and his taxi's operated in the Weber area, that is what I know.

MR STEWART: Now you explain that this happened in about the middle of 1991, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, if my memory serves me well.

MR STEWART: At that time had there been taxi violence in this area?

MR DLAMINI: No at the time it had not as yet started.

MR STEWART: When was there taxi violence here, do you know?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot remember quite clearly.

MR STEWART: But it was sometime after this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, after this incident if I'm not mistaken.

MR STEWART: And did this incident have anything to do with taxi violence?

MR DLAMINI: No, not at all.

MR STEWART: What did Kay ask you to do?

MR DLAMINI: I was working in the police station and Kay came to me and told me that he had been sent by Mudla Induna.  When Kay arrived there was fighting at Injubakazi and people fled to their shacks at Unit 4.  Kay told me that Mudla Induna had asked me to assist him because there was this fighting at Injubakazi.  He insisted that Mudla Induna had sent him to me.  I told him that we'll discuss it after I came off work.  After leaving work at 2, I went to Unit 4 and talked to Kay.  I questioned him about the incident and he repeated that Mudla Induna had sent him to me, that people were being killed at Injubakazi, and I should assist them.  Mudla Induna had told him this.  I told him that I was going to speak to Mudla Induna.
	I made a telephone call to Ulundi where Mudla Induna was, and asked him about this matter because I was working as a policeman.  Mudla Induna asked me if I was not longer a member of the IFP.  He told me that he indeed had sent Kay, and what Kay had told me I should do.  I then agreed; told Kay that I would do it, and I asked him "where are the weapons" ...(intervention)

MR STEWART: Yes Mr Dlamini, just before you go on, you say you agreed you would do it, but you haven't explained to us what is it that you were asked to do.

MR DLAMINI: As I've mentioned before, there was fighting at Injubakazi, IFP members were being attacked and they were fleeing to Unit 4.  Therefore my agreement with Kay was that I was going to go attack the ANC people, as in Jabulani, who were in fact attacking IFP members there.

MR STEWART: Now was this agreement as you've referred to it, with Kay, was that you would do this on your own, or that you would have others with you?

MR DLAMINI: Kay told me that there were other people who were going to assist us.  We did not call guns by their names, we used to call them "sticks", and he told me that we were going to get these sticks somewhere, and I agreed with him.  He took me to Sakonja and when we arrived there at a certain house, I cannot exactly remember where it is, he showed me the guns, they were AK47's, quite a lot of them.  And there was ammunition as well.  We left and returned to Unit 4.  I went back to work.  When I left work later on I told Kay that I was now ready to go with him.

INTERPRETER: I think I've missed something.

MR DLAMINI: Before we went to Injubakazi there was a boy by the name of Mkupuleni who worked at CR Swart in Durban, at the Murder and Robbery Unit.  The SAP used to go the Injubakazi area, and this Mkupuleni used to work in that unit.  He is an IFP member because he was once attacked at Injubakazi and came to stay at Woody Glen.  Kay then connected me to this Mkupuleni before we went to attack the Injubakazi area.  At one occasion Mkupuleni took his men and they went to check what the situation was like at Injubakazi, and he came back and reported to me that there was a large presence of the police in the area - we should not go there.
	After a few days I told him that he should make means that I should be able to go there because Mudla Induna had instructed me to go there.  Thereafter myself and Kay, in his red Corolla, went to Sakonja.   When we arrived there we found other people waiting for us, and their weapons were also there.  I took AK47's, R4's, R1's and these men looked trustworthy, and they wanted - they were rearing to go to Injubakazi.  They were afraid of me, I told them to take the guns.  I gave them the guns in fact.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini do you remember who these people were, the ones that went with you?