Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman, I know of one instance. I'm not even sure whether it was question of killing, where there was illegal action necessary steps were taken and the people were apprehended. To say it was general practise, no I did not know about it.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) you never suspect when activists were being eliminated the security forces were responsible?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: The, you're talking about the military?

MR VAN ZYL: The military.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Ja.

MR VAN ZYL: You never suspected?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: No.

MR VAN ZYL: And General Malan when they were high profile assassinations of activists and that was reported in the national media and carried in the national media and in the international media and allegations were made? Allegations and I put it that no more than allegations were made that in fact the security forces were involved in that, did you ever suspect that there may ever be any truth in that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Did I ever be?

MR VAN ZYL: Any truth in those allegations?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair regarding this question I would like to put it to you in this way. I, from my perspective was much more worried and concerned about the atrocities being committed in South Africa by the opposition, by the ANC and the MK people. I just now gave you the statistics and it's (...indistinct) statistics of things that happened. It was on a day to day basis while you gave me the statistics of the so-called possible transgressions by the Defence Force. I do not know whether they did it or not but it's minimal. You can say it is high profile, I agree with you there were one or two about which I was concerned but it was not the Defence Force's responsibility to investigate this. It was the task of the South African police and the police did this. I never personally got involved in these aspects.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) that when you approved words like "neutralise or elimineer," etc., and then high profile activists did indeed get killed and you on your evidence you said that was never your intention, did it not occur to you that perhaps we should issue a statement of clarification. I mean these things are being interpreted, by your own version in different departments according to different institutional cultures. Shouldn't we to be absolutely clear issue a statement - I'm not finished.

MR MARITZ: A very long-winded question is being asked here and hidden in the long-winded question is an inaccuracy. My client never said that departments actually misinterpreted words in documents. He conceded the possibility that, that could happen. But that concession doesn't entitle the questioner to state it as a fact in a very long-winded question and sort of hide it there in the middle to be recorded and to held against my client.

MR LYSTER: I think the way you pose the question Mr van Zyl is you're asking General Malan: did you not think that you should re-clarify the language in view of the fact that activists were being killed impliably by the security forces who had misinterpreted the instructions? And General Malan has not conceded that they did. He said it's possible that they may have. So.

MR VAN ZYL: I suppose my question is if there is a possibility, I'm not saying it indeed is a fact. If there is a possibility and this is the evidence that you lead, that different departments will interpret it in different ways, if that is a possibility and at the same time activists, high profile activists are indeed being eliminated. Should one not to foreclose the possibility that it's being interpreted make it absolutely clear that these words should not be interpreted in this way?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: On hindsight yes.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you. Final question General Malan. Minister Vlok concedes in his testimony before this Commission and I don't want to misinterpret your last answer. But you just said you were more concerned by the terrible atrocities that were being carried out by the ANC and by terrorists organisations and Minister Vlok in response to a question put to him as to why there was no wide scale, thorough going, high level, comprehensive investigation in relation to the allegations that members of the security forces were eliminating activists, said very frankly that
"At that time we were more concerned with the victims of terrorism and that was what we concerned ourselves with. And perhaps we were negligent in not listening sufficiently to allegations of abuse by the security forces."
Do you have any comment on that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Do I have any?

MR VAN ZYL: Comment on that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair, the Minister of Law and Order, his primary task is now under discussion here. I expect that he must give you that kind of answer. That's not my task. My primary task was the defence of the Republic of South Africa. We have an average of a hundred thousand troops in the fields, we were busy with a war and that is why I was not that intensely involved in the domestic circumstances. I was much more concerned about the statistics of atrocities committed by people crossing the borders and coming from other places. I am sorry I expected as I've gathered expected from me to protect the country. I thought that law and order would be concerned with that, that is the Minister of justice. They had functions and they launched certain actions and I accepted that, that was the correct procedure.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) task was ensuring that law and order prevailed in the country. That's law and order for everybody not just for victims of terrorism. It's law and order for every person within South Africa. Would you be, would you concede that it's fair to say as a member of the State Security Council, the State Security Council did not perhaps pay sufficient attention to the criminal activities potentially carried out by members of the security forces against one group of South Africans? That they were more concerned with the unlawful acts being conducted against other South Africans?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I have to disagree with that. Essentially the greatest extent of the atrocities were not committed against the whites. It was against the disadvantaged people in our country. That was the kernel of the revolutionary warfare. The masses had to be swinged around. If one has this intimidation one is busy loosing. I was very concerned about these atrocities. I was much more concerned about these atrocities who came through who were high profile politicians. It was not my first priority. The other one was my first priority. Perhaps I should have looked at this one as well as a member of government, not as Minister of Defence.

MR VAN ZYL: Why was it not your first priority? I beg your pardon. Why was it not your first priority?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: According to the law, the act, the Defence Act. It was the defence of the country. My first priority was the Defence Force not the law and order force.

MR VAN ZYL: No, General Malan you just said that it was not your first priority to be concerned with the deaths of one or two high profile activists. It was more to deal with the gruesome acts that were occurring to other people. Why was it not your first priority? Surely you should treat them equally.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair as it is not the Minister of law and order's first priority to lead operations and to look after the well being of troops, it was not my first priority to take over his tasks.