Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pienaar, Mr Ntsebeza will lead the questions.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson.  Now Colonel Pienaar, I don't know whether you are Colonel or commandant.

SALMON PIENAAR: Call me Mr, it's better Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Oh ja, Mr Pienaar.  Now I would like to get an understanding of what you were in terms of your career, were you an educationist and were only a member of the Defence Force because you are a member of the citizen force?

SALMON PIENAAR: That's correct.  I was a member of the part-time forces, but due to the fact that I was a member of the part-time forces I could be called up for service anywhere that the Defence Force needs me in terms of the Defence Act.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  So when you served in command and in control of the SADF personnel in the Cape Flats during October of 1985 it was as a consequence of a call-up, is that correct?

SALMON PIENAAR: Could you just repeat that - as a consequence of the call-up, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: When had you been called up?

SALMON PIENAAR: I can't remember, normally there is a period prescribed before time, I can't tell you, maybe my personal file will identify that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would it have been earlier on in the year or would it have been only shortly before the incident?

SALMON PIENAAR: Normally a call-up instruction I presume must reach a member of the part-time forces about 90 days beforehand, but it could have been shorter.  Because in those days, because of the shortage of personnel, call-up instructions were directed at people at shorter periods.

MR NTSEBEZA: When you are not on call-up what is the position, are you conversant with things that happen in the Defence Force, or are you totally ignorant of what is going on there?

SALMON PIENAAR: Normally ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: In other words when you are functioning as a civilian.

SALMON PIENAAR: Can I just explain to you this way.  As a member of the citizen force you are also part of a structure somewhere.  You might be, as I was regimental commander, not at this point, I stood off that post in 1983, but then I was attached to Western Province Command.  The link that I had with Western Province Command that I received on a regular basis what we called Intelligence Reports of what was going on, but I had no direct contact, I wasn't in uniform.  I was continuing with my civilian job.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would you say you were part of the then National Security management systems?

SALMON PIENAAR: Chair, would you just repeat?  Yes I think inherently I was.  If you are a member of the South African Defence Force you are part of the system, if you want or don't want to be you are part of it.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am talking about a phenomenon that occurred in the eighties where whole communities were organised around certain security management systems, joint management systems.

SALMON PIENAAR: That's correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you part of that in the Western Cape?

SALMON PIENAAR: I wasn't part of organising communities.  If you were part, say for instance of a commando unit, and I say again a commando unit, they had regional responsibilities.  In other words if you take a commando that has got a responsibility in the Athlone area you were part of the community security at all times, yes, but I wasn't part of that.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Now when you became part of the Joint Operational Centre were you authorised to be part of that?

SALMON PIENAAR: I was authorised because the moment I was called up and I accepted the call-up instructions and I landed here I was briefed on the situation in the area.  I was fully briefed by the Intelligence Officer.
I was also briefed by the permanent force staff in Western Province Command and I was given a specific task.  I have written it down, I haven't mentioned it in my submission.  My task was to support the South African Police in the maintaining of law and order and to bring the community life back to a normal level within what the normal Defence Force doctrines prescribed and what the laws of the country prescribed and, within what was at that time accepted as urban operations and the way it's being conducted.  In other words that was my task.

MR NTSEBEZA: Right.  So this briefing which you get was it from Military Intelligence?

SALMON PIENAAR: Military Intelligence, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And was it a briefing that they gave only to the SADF component of...(intervention)

SALMON PIENAAR: Yes correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: ...of that JOC.

SALMON PIENAAR: Only the South African Defence Force.  We never mixed that up except on a higher level in the security system, in the Nationale Veiligsheid Bestuurstelsel, they had joint committees but I wasn't involved with that.

MR NTSEBEZA: And were you part, did you provide advice on planning of operations in that JOC in Manenberg in your capacity as head of the......

SALMON PIENAAR: No, no Sir.  The planning of operations was basically an identification of what type of operation.  Let me explain to you.  My troops worked in say the Guguletu area.  When I do arrive at the JOC in the morning I explain to the other commanders that this is my border, I won't go outside this; I will conduct patrols; I will conduct community activities like for instance taking garbage away if it's necessary; I would conduct road blocks if necessary, only under these conditions if the South African Police would supply me with the necessary personnel to do an operation like that.  Of course I couldn't do a patrol, I couldn't do a road block without the South African Police going with me, because they were basically responsible for law and order, I couldn't adjust over that.  If there were any arrests to be made we could take the man in but hand him to the South African Police immediately.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see ...(intervention)

SALMON PIENAAR: Sorry my advocate just shows me he said you asked me about planning.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

SALMON PIENAAR: No I wasn't part of planning processes.  If you see the Trojan Horse the idea of sending in such a vehicle, yes, that was explained to me and I accepted that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Okay, now we'll go into that in some detail.  Now earlier on, and I hope you were able to follow that, when we had Brigadier Loedolff a suggestion was made to him that there had been a meeting on the 14th of October 1985 at some building, Thomas Boydell, do you know anything about that meeting?

SALMON PIENAAR: I don't know anything about it.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you saying that you did not attend a meeting of that nature?

SALMON PIENAAR: I followed this morning that they mentioned about Mr Vlok having a meeting, but I never knew about it and I never attended it.

MR NTSEBEZA: You are saying you never received an invitation ...(intervention)

SALMON PIENAAR: No.

MR NTSEBEZA: To a meeting which was going to be held at that building?

SALMON PIENAAR: Could I explain to you, if such an invitation was sent to the South African Defence Force it would have been sent to the Commander, Western Province Command and if he decided that I should go he would inform me to go but I wasn't invited and I never received an order from him to attend.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now there was a suggestion in the letter of invitation that was shown to the Brigadier that this meeting of the 14th was at the instance of the State Security Council.  Now the question is in your career, and especially whilst you were here in the Western Cape, did you ever attend or get a briefing from a person who had attended meetings of the State Security Council?

SALMON PIENAAR: If I ever got a briefing from people who attended ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Firstly let me ask did you yourself ever attend a meeting of the State Security Council?

SALMON PIENAAR: No, no, no I haven't been ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: It was so high that you wouldn't ...(intervention)

SALMON PIENAAR: Ja it was too high for me thank you.