Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MR NODADA: Left what place?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Queenstown.

MR NODADA: So before you got to Queenstown, Col Duli had been there in Queenstown but left before you arrived?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Col Duli left me in East London and he went to Queenstown, when I arrived in Queenstown he had already left Queenstown.

MR NODADA: And what transport was he using when he left East London, going to Queenstown?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: If I still remember well he was using his Mercedes Benz, the grey one.

MR NODADA: But what did you mean when you said you were, he was driving, I mean you were driving the same car as he was?  What did you actually say when I asked you what transport, or whose motor vehicle Col Duli was driving?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I did not say that.

MR NODADA: What did you say?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I said I was driving my own car, I was not with him.

MR NODADA: I see, maybe I didn't understand you correctly.  Anyway, did you ask him where he was going to from Queenstown?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Who?

MR NODADA: Col Duli.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: When I arrived in Queenstown he was not there, he had already left.

JUDGE MILLER: I think what Mr Nodada wants to know is, when you spoke to Col Duli, when he told you to go to Queenstown to pick up these three gentlemen, did he tell you or give you any information as to where he was going?  And perhaps if he did, as to why he was going to where he was going.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: All he said over the radio was that I should pick these people up and take the route to Maclear.  He said that over the radio.  He said that he was going to the Transkei and I had to wait for his instructions.   That is all.

MR NODADA: And of course you were in constant contact with him until you were at Tsolo, where you lost contact with him.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, for some time.

MR NODADA: And he kept on informing you about his whereabouts until you lost contact?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He would not tell me where he was, but he would ask whether we are still safe on the road and I would say "Yes we're still driving well on the road".

MR NODADA: And of course you knew that he was - on that same day which was I believe, was it the night of the 21st of November 1992 or the morning of the 22nd of November 1990? - I beg your pardon.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: When he said that he was going to the Transkei, it was on the 21st at night.

MR NODADA: And you knew that that was the day that he was coming to take over power from Gen Holomisa.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, it was that day.

MR NODADA: And as planned, you knew that he was coming with all the members of the military wing as well as other people to assist him in the taking over, you knew that he was not just coming all by himself here, he had a lot of other people accompanying him?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Unfortunately I did not know who was with him.

MR NODADA: But at least you knew that there were armed people that were in his company.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I did not know that because I heard that their weapons were taken in Port Elizabeth.

MR NODADA: Didn't you know that when he was coming to take over power, he would resist - or rather he would apply force if he was meeting any resistance?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I did not know that would happen because he said that he was called by the soldiers of the Transkei.

MR NODADA: So when he came he was going to meet the soldiers of Transkei, who were going to assist him to take over power.  Is that what he said to you?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, he said that.  He said that there was not going to be any bloodshed because the job would not be difficult because the soldiers of the Transkei were ready for him, that he must take over.  Maybe I would say that I was dealing with a person who was very clever than me.  That's what I realised after some time.

MR NODADA: And during the planning stage, how much did you know about the manner in which this whole coup was going to be executed, what details did you know?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I didn't have any details about what was going to happen or how it was going to happen, I was supposed to wait and then after he had finished his operation he would tell me that he was through and what had happened.

MR NODADA: Now when you went back to Maclear and later heard over the radio that the coup had not been successful, what did you do with the three passengers that you had in your vehicle?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I took them back to where I found them in Queenstown, even though I was scared.

MR NODADA: And from there you drove back to East London.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I drove back to East London.

MR NODADA: And when did you first learn that some people had been killed at the Ncise camp and also elsewhere?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I heard that from the news, that was the first time I heard that.

MR NODADA: Was that when you were at Maclear or on the way between Maclear and East London?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I can say on the way between Maclear and East London.

MR NODADA: Did you consider yourself part of that killing?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Because of the conspiracy I can say yes, I was part of the killing.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada.  Mr Malan, have you got any questions?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: What political objective did you intend achieving by taking over the Holomisa government?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: The intention was that Transkei should be ruled by the civilians, not the military, so that all the changes can be done by the people of the Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: Prior to Holomisa taking over, the Transkei government was led by a political party known as the Tinip(?), do you recall that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Were you a member of the Tinip?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I was a member because we were overthrown when we were busy reviving the strength of the Tinip when the government was overthrown.

MR MAPOMA: And during the Tinip era the political activities led by the liberation movements were banned in Transkei then, do you recall that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAPOMA: And there were good relations, working relations between the Transkei government, led by Tinip and the apartheid government led by P W Botha and then later on F W de Klerk.  Is that correct?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: There was conflict Sir, between those two governments, their relations were not good.

MR MAPOMA: But when it comes to curbing the actions of those who were referred to as the terrorists, there was a good co-operation between these two parties, is it not correct?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was not that good but it surprised me when the government was led by Ms Stella Sigcau when people from Lusaka were arrested we were surprised as members of the parliament when those people went to Lusaka to see the members of the ANC and when they came back they were arrested and a lot of us were surprised by that action.

MR MAPOMA: Now during the Holomisa era, you will agree with me that the government led by Holomisa was to a great extent sympathetic to the liberation movements.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I read that from the newspapers and I also saw that on TV, Sir, because I was already in prison when it became clear that he was working with them, or he sympathised with them.  But before the Holomisa coup, the reasons why the government was overthrown I became aware of those reasons because they said that the security of the Transkei was not working properly.  The relatives were the ones who were hired and ...(indistinct) Matanzima was also arrested.  Those were the reasons that led to the removal of Ms Stella Sigcau.