Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

ADV GCABASHE: Was there a lot of traffic at this point?

TREVOR MASILO: I did not realise that because my task was to ensure that my fellow comrades were safe.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there a motor vehicle in front of the Fidelity Guards vehicle?

TREVOR MASILO: I'm not sure whether there was another car, but if I remember well, it was only this Fidelity Guard vehicle in front.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay. And again when you eventually got to counting the money, you were not given any at all?

TREVOR MASILO: No.

ADV GCABASHE: And you were not expecting any either.

TREVOR MASILO: We were not expecting anything because that money was going to be used for the organisation activities.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you see Bongani again this incident, after you divided, I beg your pardon, after you counted the money?

TREVOR MASILO: I never saw him after that day, after counting the money. I saw him during the time we were being hunted by the police, that can be three to four weeks after the incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you talk when you saw him, three to four weeks later?

TREVOR MASILO: Yes, I did talk to him.

ADV GCABASHE: What did you discuss?

TREVOR MASILO: We discussed about the issue regarding us being hunted by the police and the question of me not staying at home and then we discussed the issue of me leaving the country because I was hunted by the police. He said to me while he's still trying to organise for me a base where I can stay, I should remain where I am. Then he'll try to contact another person in Vosloorus, that is Bapeti, and then Bapeti will contact my sister, and then my sister knew where I was.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he talk about your other comrades at all? Ngubeni and Simelane? And the others, actually, even Makwe and Majola?

TREVOR MASILO: He asked me about them. Then I said to him since we have been hunted by the police the last time I saw them was when we went out to patrol that ...(indistinct). Because when I arrived at home that morning I was told that I'd been hunted by the police. At home, I asked my sister to go to Mr Ngubeni and tell Mr Ngubeni that the people, the police were looking for me for murder and robbery and Mr Ngubeni should try to contact other comrades.

ADV GCABASHE: And how was Bongani going to come back to you with information about what he had arranged for you?

TREVOR MASILO: May you please repeat the question, I don't understand your question?

ADV GCABASHE: Bongani was going to see what he could arrange  in respect of a safe place for you to stay and ultimately, for  you to leave the country. Is that correct?

TREVOR MASILO: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: How was he going to communicate his progress to you? Because you were both in hiding now.

TREVOR MASILO: Like I have already explained he said to me he would try to organise for me to leave the country and then he'll contact Bapiki and then Bapiki will contact my sister and my sister was the only person who knew where I was.

ADV GCABASHE: Bapiki was a comrade of yours?

TREVOR MASILO: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: When were you arrested?

TREVOR MASILO: I was arrested in, on the 3rd of December 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: '93?

TREVOR MASILO: That's correct. 1991 not 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: '91. Were you the first to be arrested of the group?

TREVOR MASILO: Yes, I was the first.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did they find you?

TREVOR MASILO: I was arrested at a road block. I was from Transkei.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Masilo. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Why did they arrest at the road block? What did they arrest you for there?

TREVOR MASILO: I had guns with me and ammunition.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us a little more about these guns? Was it for an operation or what was the purpose? Where did you get them from?

TREVOR MASILO: I went to collect them from the Transkei for the organisation.

MR MALAN: Who sent you?

TREVOR MASILO: I was sent by Bongani together with Bapiki.

MR MALAN: And where did you collect the guns from?

TREVOR MASILO: We collect them in Umtata. On the outskirts of Umtata at a place known as Poloza.

MR MALAN: Did you buy the guns there or did you simply collect them?

TREVOR MASILO: The person who knew where this guns were supposed to be collected was Bapiki. We went to collect them from other comrades in the Transkei.

MR MALAN: Now this Bapiki, where did he fit in? Was he a member of your unit?

TREVOR MASILO: He was not a member of the unit.

MR MALAN: Was he a member of Apla or was he simply a member of PAC?

TREVOR MASILO: He was a member of Apla.

MR MALAN: Was he a member of another unit?

TREVOR MASILO: He was working with other comrades.

MR MALAN: Was he responsible to Bongani?

TREVOR MASILO: Well, I'm not sure whether he was accountable to Bongani, because the reason that led to me meeting Bapiki was through Bongani. I met him through Bongani. How they met each other, I don't know.

MR MALAN: When did you meet Bapiki first?

TREVOR MASILO: I knew him before, that he was a member of the PAC. I met him after this operation, while I was being looked by the police, being hunted by the police, rather.

MR MALAN: Now, where did your sister learn that you were being hunted by the police?

TREVOR MASILO: She was staying at home. So when the police arrived at home, they found her together with my mother at home.

MR MALAN: What did they tell her? What did she tell you they told her?

TREVOR MASILO: She said to me they were white policemen from Brixton and they said to her that I've killed white people and where they could me. They were going to kill me.

MR MALAN: Did you ever learn how they traced you? How they linked you to the incident?

TREVOR MASILO: I don't know.

MR MALAN: Were you, was there any possible way that they could have linked you, that you would guess? Did you have previous convictions so that they could trace finger prints or something?

TREVOR MASILO: I never had previous convictions. It was well known in those days that there were people known as mpimpis, informers. It might happen that somebody saw me when this took place. That is what I think.

MR MALAN: How did they get to your other colleagues? The same informer, or did you give them the names? How dad they get to the other applicants and the other people involved?

TREVOR MASILO: I never gave them the names. When I was arrested and taken by the Brixton police, when they arrested me in Heidelberg, they had their names and they asked me where they are. And they wanted to know from me whether I know them. They told me that I was with them at that operation and they wanted the money and guns.

MR MALAN: And they gave you, the police gave you all the names? So they had all the information then.

TREVOR MASILO: That's correct.

MR MALAN: You responded to an earlier question about your  joining the task force by Adv Gcabashe that it was 1990, but  I think in your affidavit you say '91. You joined the task force in '91, is it?

TREVOR MASILO: I intended to correct it, it was a typographical, it's supposed to be 1990, the same year.

MR MALAN: It's supposed to be?

TREVOR MASILO: The same year, 1990, sir, ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Also in 1990.

TREVOR MASILO: Also 1990, the same year. Sorry for that, it was my mistake.

MR MALAN: Okay. We can just correct, it's paragraph 5. When did you again see or hear or speak to the first applicant, Mr Ngubeni?

TREVOR MASILO: The first time I spoke to Mr Ngubeni, it was at Boksburg Prison, after our arrest.

MR MALAN: When was the first time you spoke to Bongani again after the incident?

TREVOR MASILO: I don't remember whether it's the week after or two weeks after. It can be then.

MR MALAN: Was it before or after you learnt that you were been looking for by the police?

TREVOR MASILO: That is after I've learnt that I've been hunted by the police.