Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR VISSER: As P66 for the time being, as it pleases you Mr Chairman  Now Mr Chairman, may I refer your attention to that letter very briefly because there's something I wish to draw your attention to
"The  letter makes provision for a transfer of Detective Constable Morakile, M-o-r-a-k-i-l-e"
The letter is dated the 3rd of June 1986 and if you look over the page Mr Chairman, you will see paragraph numbered 1 there:
"The above mentioned member on 23 June 1986, assumed duties at security branch Bloemfontein  "
...[inaudible]  it was the 21st. It turned out to be in fact to be the 23rd Mr Chairman, I just wanted to draw your attention to that difference.  And it deals of course, if you again revert to the 1st page, with:
"Transfer from the stock theft unit Wepener to the security branch Bloemfontein"
As I rather suspected Mr Chairman, there might be a problem with the pocketbooks.  They're still looking for them, we have given instructions.  The moment we have word on that we will revert to you in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: My experience is they get put into boxes and then put away in the most unlikely places.

MR VISSER: The next witness I wish to call is Captain Paul van den Berg.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before Mr van den Berg is called there's a reference in the in the letter annexed to to to this letter of 3 June 1986,  US169856N/4 dated 30 May '86.  What is that document or what is it?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the short answer is that they they are coded reference numbers.  A, that reference number will refer to A just above - the "Divisional Commander" and B will refer to the reference number of the "District Commander"

ADV MEMANI: I think I was referring US169856N/4

ADV DE JAGER: It is in the heading of the letter Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I see a transfer number so-and-so and then there's a number US169856N/4 dated 30 May.  On the same basis ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] lines above, it would seem that that might be the number of sergeant Morakile
"Transfer"
and the same number appears.  ...[inaudible] that mgiht be either the number given to the transaction or to the person.  It appears in both places.

MR VISSER: Yes Sir, that is confirmed.  Mr Erasmus has just confirmed that you're absolutely correct. That's his number as a South African policeman.

ADV MEMANI: Doesn't that then tells us that there's a letter dated 30th May '86 relating to his transfer which has not been annexed to these documents?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there's a whole file on this person.  I thought that what was expected is to obtain the transfer document and we've done that.  We didn't think of of dragging the whole file to you.

ADV MEMANI: Well Mr Chairman, you'll recall that we've said that although it may be that he formally started working on the date given, he was in fact he was actually working at security branch.  And it might be that a the letter which has not been annexed might disclose something that might tend to confirm our version because it is clearly a letter relating to this very transfer.  That's all I can say.  I'm not saying that it must be produced or anything like that but I'm saying this should be borne in mind that there is something which has not been brought to your attention about his transfer.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, I believe the time has arrived for me just to say something about this.  We've been hearing criticism of the people for whom I appear, that they have failed to make enquiries as to documentation etcetera etcetera.
	Mr Chairman, we have two applicants here they were both policemen, we have the TRC Investigation Unit.  Really we don't know, we didn't know and we still don't really know what their cases are.  With all due respect, the onus is not on us Mr Chairman.  We have we have displayed our assistance and our willingness to assist at all times but my learned  friend can't pass the buck to us.  
	If he wanted to make a point of this, if this was important to his case he should have contacted - he should have made arrangements for the for documentation to be obtained Mr Chairman, with great respect. 
	If if you wish that we should do so, we will bring the file of Mr Morakile.  If you think its relevant we'll do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I agree.  If Mr Memani wishes to inspect the documents he can apply to you for permission to see it somewhere.  I don't think it is necessary that it should be produced here.

MR VISSER: I am indebted to you Mr Chairman.
	The witness is Captain van der Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: (sworn states)
[MR VISSER EXPLAINS MICROPHONES TO MR VAN DEN BERG]

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR VISSER: Mr van den Berg, were you a member of the South African Police Service and are you at present a member of the S.A.P.?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What is your rank?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Captain.

MR VISSER: And when did you join the South African Police?

MR VAN DEN BERG: 31 March 1959.

MR VISSER: And where were you then?

MR VAN DEN BERG: In South West Africa Namibia.

MR VISSER: And did you go over to the security branch and if so when?

MR VAN DEN BERG: During 1960 in Windhoek.

MR VISSER: Were you transferred to the RSA?

MR VAN DEN BERG: During December '82 I was transferred to Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: And did you join the security branch here?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] certain Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DEN BERG: December '82.

MR VISSER: In what section did you work here, that is from '82 onwards?

MR VAN DEN BERG: The investigative unit.

MR VISSER: And who was your commanding officer in that unit?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Colonel Coetzee and later Colonel du Plooy.

MR VISSER: In December '85 you went to Botshabelo where a sub-branch of the security branch was.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct, we worked there on an ad hoc basis in '86 and December/January '86 we established a sub branch there.

MR VISSER: You were the commanding officer?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And who was your second in command?

MR VAN DEN BERG: When I started there it was only I and Warrant Officer Mbanjani.

MR VISSER: And did any further members join later?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us who they were?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Sergeant Kotze, Sergeant du Plessis.  Kotze, du Plessis, Sergeant Phadi spelt P-h-a-d-i.

MR VISSER: Anybody else?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Constable Mathanya.

MR VISSER: How do you spell that?

MR VAN DEN BERG: M-a-t-h-a-n-y-a.

MR VISSER: Anyone else?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Constable Lehapela, L-e-h-p-l-a.

MR VISSER: Anyone else?

MR VAN DEN BERG: A day later some more came.

MR VISSER: Constable Lesale, do you know him?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was he ever a member of that sub unit?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No, never.

MR VISSER: And then reference was made to a Sergeant Smith.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes, there was a Sergeant Smith.  I'm not sure when he arrived there, I think he was there for approximately one week.

MR VISSER: And then?

MR VAN DEN BERG: He committed suicide.  He killed his wife and then committed suicide.

MR VISSER: But the fact is he was only there for a short while?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

MR VISSER: It is alleged Mr van den Berg that on page 31, by person by the name of Nelson Ngo, that in 1986 there was an incident in which a raid was made and a group of 40 to 45 activists were arrested and brought to the Botshabelo police station.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: The page number is 31 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: 31?

MR VISSER: 31, yes.
	I want to ask you, you were there at grassroots level or at at Botshabelo from '85 onwards.  What was the frequency of incidents where people were arrested in groups, raids that were executed as from '85 to mid '86, was it something that was exceptional or what was your position?