Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MR WILLIAMS: But you would agree with me that it would have made sense for him to use the back entrance rather than the front entrance, because it was closer?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Certainly.

MR WILLIAMS: You say further that
"... he also had to determine which members of the Movement attended the meeting."
	Is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell us again why you wanted him to check which members of the Movement, the Youth Movement, were there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already given that evidence, sir.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you remind repeating that for us?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I do not want to do it.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.  I want to ask you again, and I am going to ask the protection of the Chair here, what is the reason why you sent Gakkie in to go and find out which members of the Kewtown Youth  Movement were there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I tell you with all due respect, I have already testified many times about this, how many times do you want me to tell you this again?

MR WILLIAMS: I am going to ask you again and Mr Chairperson, I am going to ask your protection in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the objection to answering it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, for five days I am giving evidence under cross-examination and a whole day has been wasted with all respect, with the same question that has already been put to me at a stage, being put to me again, that is why I do not want to do it.  I have no other objection, I have already gone through the thing twice or thrice before.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I think with respect, he is wasting more time in objecting to the question than he would in supplying the answer?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, would you answer it, but I would ask Mr Williams to bear in mind what questions have been asked and to avoid as far as possible, repetition.  This one, if you could answer?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I sent Gakkie in for two reasons.  The first was to ascertain whether the children that had according to our information attended karate classes, had already departed from the hall, and secondly to determine whether he could tell me which members of the Kewtown Youth Movement were present at the meeting.

MR WILLIAMS: My follow up question is, did Gakkie tell you which members of the Youth Movement were there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He did.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you recall the names or numbers?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think of the list of names that he gave to me, and I recall that he reported about five names to me, approximately.

MR WILLIAMS: Now your information was that this meeting would not be a general meeting, only a meeting of Steering Committee members?  Did he report to you that there were others, besides Steering Committee members?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ask Gakkie to check whether there were other people in the building, or whether there were people in other parts of the building, and not only in the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, besides the names that Gakkie mentioned to you, the five names that you have just testified about, did he tell you whether there were any other members or any other people in the building that night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know whether he checked to see whether there were other people in the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you personally consider the fact that there could have been security guards on the premises or even a night watchman in the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I did not.

MR WILLIAMS: So obviously you wouldn't have asked Gakkie questions of that nature?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you consider the fact that innocent people who happened to walk passed the other side of the building when the bomb was detonated, could have been killed or injured?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I did not.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you just tell the Committee why did you want to know the names of the people who were in the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I already gave that evidence yesterday, I say once again that I wanted to make sure, I wanted to have confirmation that the management meeting, as it was reported to us, had taken place and which persons were there.  Yesterday it was put to me that I sat there with a checklist and ticked off names as the persons exited, that was not the case.
	It was a precautionary measure that after the people came out of the hall and climbed into their cars, they were identified to me, it was a measure according to which I could determine that persons had left the hall.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.   You say that you observed the parking lot.  How many cars did you personally observe in the parking lot?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Approximately four, four or five vehicles.

MR WILLIAMS: I know it is a long time ago, but do you remember the make of any of those vehicles?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Unfortunately not.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether they were kombis or were they sedans, ordinary cars, or minibuses?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: They were sedan vehicles, ordinary vehicles.  I cannot think of any mini kombi that was there.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.  Do you remember whether there were fancy cars or whether they were "jalopies", please don't ask me to define that.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, it was normal sedan vehicles.  I cannot recall that there were any large Mercedes Benz'.

MR WILLIAMS: But were they old cars or cars in a dilapidated state or were they fairly ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot give you that information.

MR WILLIAMS: Let's go on to your next sentence.  You say -"... we drove to a street where we had a good view of the parking grounds and the hall."
	Do you recall where this street is?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, unfortunately not.

MR WILLIAMS: But obviously this street would have still been at the back of the centre, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And then you say
"... approximately 9pm the management members of the Movement left the hall and went to their vehicles."
	Is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is my evidence.

MR WILLIAMS: You also say that
"... Isgak informed me that everyone had left the hall."
	How did he ascertain that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He was with me in the vehicle and I believe that the inference was drawn because the persons who left the hall, stood talking in the parking area, climbed into their vehicles and left the parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: So was your information earlier the evening that there were in fact five members present at the meeting, was that your information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I said that there were approximately five names which were supplied to me, from the list of names of those who would attend the meeting.  I cannot recall exactly what he told me as to how many people there were.

MR WILLIAMS: So there were more people?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot answer that question.

MR WILLIAMS: He supplied you with a list of five names, did he show you who these people were as they left?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct, some of the persons were identified to me.

MR WILLIAMS: So he identified five people to you, do you recall whether there were any other people besides those five?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: So according to your own personal observations, there were only five people?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I said approximately four or five persons, I did not count the persons as they came out of the hall, and as they came into the parking area, but the number of five is a good average.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words if there were for example 10 people, you could have easily, you would have noticed then?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And you would have remembered obviously that fact?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I believe so.

MR WILLIAMS: You then say that - were there any women amongst the group that you observed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not that I can recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, then you have also stated in your statement that about 30 metres from the hall, and I think we will accept that it was about 40 paces.