Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the detention of Mr Biko was intended to obtain information from him with regard to his activities within the Black Consciousness Movement, or rather the Black People's Convention and in that way, by means of what we could obtain from him, to gather the necessary evidence with which we could later bring a case to court.

GEORGE BIZOS: The reason for the scuffle, if it was in fact a scuffle and not a beating up, came about as a result of his refusal to get off the chair.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: That is not a refusal to give information.  It is a refusal by a man who thought of his human dignity as having a right to be seated when there was a chair available.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.  His human dignity might well have been violated ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR SNYMAN: The instruction had been from our seniors that we should break him down in order to obtain information from him.

GEORGE BIZOS: But let us just take this step by step.  He didn't refuse to answer your questions that led to this scuffle or beating up?  Correct?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, he was resistant and did not want to reply to our questions.

GEORGE BIZOS: He insisted on sitting down.  That is the evidence that you have given us, and the scuffle or beating up came about as a result of a stubborn person in your view of not wanting to get up at your request or command?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it was clear that he did not want to co-operate with us.  It was clear from his behaviour.

GEORGE BIZOS: His behaviour was that he refused to submit to your will that he should not be seated?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it had been the instruction that we were not allowed to let him sit down;  that we had to break him down in order to obtain the information.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why would his remaining in a seated position - it would just not be possible for you to interrogate him?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.  It remains that the instruction to us had been that he was not to be allowed to sit down.

GEORGE BIZOS: Specifically you had an instruction that he should not be allowed to sit down?  Is that what you are saying?  Or was it your decision that this particular detainee should not sit down?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, during his interrogation by the interrogation team he was instructed to stand up from the chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: In the background in which you grew up and in which you had a training;  we are not talking about now when you profess to be a democrat, but at that time, was it your general view that a Black man had to obey an order of a White man, particularly a White man who was in the security police?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, according the State system or State order of that time, it had been our thinking that that is the way that things should be done.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Your state of mind at that time and having regard
to the words that you used in your application, was that the late Mr Biko was stubborn, "parmantig" and too big for his boots for a Black man.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that was the case.  That is the impression that he created to - for us;  that he did not really want to listen to us.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but he was a proud man and that your self-respect would have been insulted if he continued sitting on the chair?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we had to realise that he was a high profile person in the Black Consciousness Organisations.  He was a president of one of these organisations and by sitting he maintained his own status.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  So that you were offended, personally offended that you, a White man, had a pretender of political power before him and that you were not going to tolerate it and you told him to get up?  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And had it not been for your personal pride, combined with the personal pride of your fellow security policemen, and he was allowed to sit down, the scuffle or beating up may not have happened at all?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, our instruction had been very clear from our commanding officer with regard to the manner in which we
had to break down this person.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to read your own words in your application at the bottom of page 4 to the top of page 5
"Biko appeared resistant, challenging and aggressive."
Was that because he insisted on sitting down?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, his entire attitude was recalcitrant, challenging and aggressive.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Siebert described him as "weerbarstig, minagtend en aggressief".

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, did he show all those attitudes by insisting on his right to sit down?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, when we started with him it already appeared clearly that he was not going to co-operate with us.

GEORGE BIZOS: But he sat down right away.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour, and then he was taken from the chair and he was instructed to stand again.

GEORGE BIZOS: Taken from the chair; how was he taken from the chair?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it was by one of the members of the investigative team, who grabbed him up from the chair or lifted him up from the chair and told him to remain to standing.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did he lift him up?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I just got a request that the witness be requested to speak a bit harder.  Apparently the interpreters have got a difficulty in hearing him.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell the witness that he should speak a little louder.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did he pick him up?

MR SNYMAN: He lifted him up as indicated and he lifted him up by holding his clothes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he say anything - first of all, who was it that lifted him up by his clothes?

MR SNYMAN: It was done by one of the members of the investigative team, Capt Siebert.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Siebert say anything whilst he was doing this?

MR SNYMAN: If I can recall correctly he said to him;  you must stand up.  You must stand.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes and did Mr Biko say anything as a result of that?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anybody say to him that he was now in security police territory and he had to do what he was told?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible that that was said to him, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and then he disobeyed that and he sat down?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: In your personal life and in your professional life, did you personally resent Black people not listening to you?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, in this particular case it was very clear that he was going to be recalcitrant and that he was not going to want to listen to us.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why don't you answer the question?

MR SNYMAN: The instruction had been that this man was not going to sit down.  We obeyed this instruction.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you please answer the question.  In your personal and your professional life, did you resent Black people not listening to you?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, why didn't you say so when the question was asked the first time?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I said at the beginning that through the attitude of the detainee it was clear that he was not going to co-operate with us.

GEORGE BIZOS: You must have hated this "parmantige" man whom you would have probably have described by another word for his actions?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, I did not hate him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you upset by his behaviour?

MR SNYMAN: It was clear that he was not willing to co-operate with us, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you upset by his behaviour?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we did probably have enough time to continue with the interrogation.  It had been our hope that he would find some or other way in which to answer questions when these were directed to him.