Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It was going to mean trouble to all the people who took part in the ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: No.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: ... shooting of the Guguletu.

MR BOOYENS: No.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Not only me.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, exactly, but even more to you and that unknown Riot Unit policeman who told you to shoot this man down in cold blood.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, Mr Mbelo, there was, apparently or maybe, I do not know, some incident where a man was down on the tar and somebody shot him when he was down from behind.  I say maybe there was such an incident.  Now, this man that you shot, was he in the road at some stage when this Riot Unit policeman shot him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, he was not on the road or on the tar itself, he was on the pavement.

MR BOOYENS: Right next to the vehicle?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

MR BOOYENS: Where?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Further up from the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: If you say on the ... (intervention).

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: From the western, to the western side of the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: To the western side of the vehicle.  Did you see this bus with the children in there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I noticed it.

MR BOOYENS: At what stage?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The time we finished shooting this man, the bush was already there, standing with the children inside.

MR BOOYENS: So, when you had finished this man, the bus was there.  Now, if you, let us just make sure who this man is.  Is this the man that you had shot?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: And was your man shot before Bellingan shot his or after?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mine was shot after.

MR BOOYENS: Right.  So, when the incident involving Mr Bellingan took place, the bus was not there yet?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: You see, after witnessing what Mr Bellingan did I went, is when I went, where I was aware of the man who was coming holding his hands up.  That is when I went to the man.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  No, I understand that.  I am talking about the presence of the bus with the children.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: You see, the presence of the bus I am not, I do not know when it arrived.  I just saw it standing there, because someone was shouting keep the bus with the children away, these are police actions.

MR BOOYENS: And was that shouting after you shot the man?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: So, when you were standing behind the Kombi at one stage, you were unaware of the bus.  Is that right?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The bus was not there at that time.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.  So, when you were standing behind the Kombi and that is the stage when the incident between, the Bellingan incident, let us call it that for lack of a better word, occurred, the bus was not there yet.  Is that right?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It might be.

MR BOOYENS: Well, you have said just now the bus was not there.  Now you say ... (intervention).

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: ... it might be.  So, was it not there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, it was not there.

MR BOOYENS: It was not there.  So, all the bus driver, bearing in mind that the position he pointed out is more or less just on the other side of the NY1 to where J is, motor vehicle J is, what the bus driver must have witnessed was the incident in which you were involved?  Is that right or an incident that is just part of his imagination?  That is the alternative.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did not see what the bus driver pointed on the inspection in loco, but that position L and K is where I shot my man.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  If the Commission would just bear with me.
	Now, Mr Mbelo, if you would be so kind to just to page, turn to page 356 where, and I am referring to line 23 about.  You were referring to the AK's.  Perhaps, just to get into it context, you should read from where Mr Koisan asks you some questions.  Just tell me when you are finished please.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I have read it.

MR BOOYENS: So, am I right that your impression was that these AK's were just dropped when these people fled?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That was my impression at that time.

MR BOOYENS: And surely, as an experienced security policeman, if there were arms stashing places established beforehand, you would have expected that night with the planning session, that you would have been told they are stashing their arms at that point, at that point and at that point and you and you watch that, you and you watch that and you and you watch that.  Surely that is the way it would have been done, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It would have been done if it was so.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and there was no talk about, the police had no prior knowledge where the arms were going to be stashed.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I myself did not know, have any knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS: Well, if they had that knowledge surely they would have shared that knowledge, not so, with the people who were going to deal with the attack?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: They would have, yes, if they had.

MR BOOYENS: If the Commission would just bear with me, Mr Chairman.
	Perhaps if you would just be so kind to turn to page 362.  Mr Chairman, referring to line four and just read your answer there, I would just like to ask you a question about that.  
"According to me ...",
you see that?  
	Can you just, perhaps, in light of what you said earlier on that Mr Bellingan was actually the man taking charge, but here you say Liebenberg was in charge.  Can you just explain that to me please?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I said here Liebenberg was the Commander of the Security Branch, of this local security branch here.  So, he had some, a problem with people in Crossroad, so that is why I say if I was in his shoes, I could have been happy of what happened that day, because he had some problem of getting rid to the people who are giving him problem.

MR BOOYENS: And, but you also say,
"From the start of the planning of the infiltration and the shooting."
So, in your view Mr Liebenberg was involved all the time.,  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.  He was liaising with Mr Bellingan.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  As a policeman ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on from that page, just a few lines down what you say there at line 13,
"No, what he did was to identified who knows and whom he does not know among the bodies."
Is this Mr Liebenberg you are talking about there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So, Mr Liebenberg identified some of the bodies as people he knew?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Mr Liebenberg identified some of the bodies as people he knew?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Where and when was that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That was after the shooting.

MR BOOYENS: Which bodies did he identify?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I cannot remember who and who did he identify.

MR BOOYENS: How many did he identify?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I cannot remember the exact number.

MR BOOYENS: Could it have been one only, more than one?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am not sure.

MR BOOYENS: So, you are not certain whether it was only one person that he identified?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am not so, I am not certain, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Could it even have been that he did not identify any body?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, he did identify, because he was the local Commander of the MK structures here.  His desk was working with infiltrators, he had his own suspects, he wanted to arrest them, he wanted them so badly.  So, that is why he was there in from the beginning of the planning up to the end.

MR BOOYENS: So, you say he wanted to arrest them badly?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: He wanted them.