Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

BONGANI FINCA: You say that people have a right to choose their leaders?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes.

BONGANI FINCA: Correctly.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: But now I've said all of them there were not Ciskeans.

BONGANI FINCA: (Laughs)  Okay.  Thank you Mr Viktor.  Could I just take you back to the gap on the fence.  You say that it was the responsibility that was given to you to lay the razor wire in such a way that you stop the marchers from getting into Bisho, can you explain to us why there was that gap which was left on the fence?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Sir I can assure you that afterwards I heard that the Attorney General wanted to charge some of the policemen for negligence because we didn't repair that hole in the fence.  Now I don't know, the little bit I know about the law I don't know of any such offence, but there again I can only say, and I have really tried to be as straightforward, and I have always tried to be honest, why it wasn't repaired I don't know.  But I have also said in memo here that the government of Ciskei was adamant that the people shouldn't be allowed to go into Bisho.  So the hole in the fence or where it was trampled down the previous time didn't come into the picture, it didn't mean a thing.  The
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other reason for the razor wire there, as I have explained the previous march the people moved forward, every time Antonie Gildenhuys ran up to the officers to negotiate the people went forward, and in the end they were amongst the policemen and that is why we decided okay, put the wire fence there, the razor fence there, it is some help.  It doesn't always help but sometimes it does.  But as far as the hole is concerned in the fence Sir I can't give you any reply.  I know there has been speculation that it was left there on purpose, I don't think that is the case Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: General Viktor please come to the point, you had a responsibility to lay that razor wire, and you left, you laid the razor wire that left a gap on the fence, submission has been made to this Commission that that was a deliberate trap, we would like to find out from you a convincing answer on why, if you are to lay a razor wire to stop people from marching into Bisho you lay a razor wire that leaves a gap on the fence?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Sir the gap is in the fence of the stadium, right on the other side, that is where the gap was Sir, not in the razor wire.  The gap is right on the other side of the fence of the stadium.

BONGANI FINCA: Were you aware of the gap?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: The previous march I heard about the fence there being trampled down, I did hear that.  But as I have said because the people were not supposed to come into Bisho it really didn't enter my mind that we should do something about that.  I didn't know whether it was actually repaired or not, but I've only heard the speculation afterwards, now you have put it to me now too, that this gap there on the fence of the stadium was left there on purpose.  EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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I have no comment on that, not from the Police side.

BONGANI FINCA: Were you aware of this gap before the march or after the march?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: As I have said Sir I knew about the gap after the march on the 4th of August, but I didn't take notice of that again.  I only heard after the march of the 7th of September that that gap was still there, and that is where the people went through.

BONGANI FINCA: Why did you resign as the Commissioner of Ciskei in the period in which you resigned?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: It still had nothing to do with the march of the 7th, and as I say if I want to take it up I don't think it's any concern of this Commission with due respect Sir, why I resigned, but I don't mind telling you, after a certain weekend I came back and I heard that all the files of all my senior officers were taken by a lawyer and he had to prepare letters to fire them all.  And Brigadier Gqozo was also the Minister of Police, and through his secretary and his people there I asked for an interview because he was my political head and he wouldn't see me.  I tried for two, three weeks to see him, to find out what is his problem with my senior officers, why must they be fired?  And I contacted the lawyer and I said I will take you to court what are you doing with Police files?  And that is why I resigned.  I have certain principles.  If my own political head doesn't want to see me because I want to ask him what's wrong with my senior officers, then it's no use carrying on Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: Just the last question Chairperson.  You and your colleagues were faced with a situation of grave danger.  I think the first march had indicated to you how serious the situation was with the marchers insisting to go and occupy
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Bisho, and you and the Ciskei Government resisting that.  I wish to go back to the question already asked by my colleague, was it not the height of irresponsibility for the Commissioner of Police to be out of duty on a day like that?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I don't understand "out of duty", I was there.  I was there at the scene.

BONGANI FINCA: But you were not in charge?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well I am the senior man there, but I had my men.  In any war you don't find the general going sitting there and direct the shooting or the firing, I was there, as I have explained, to give my men moral support, but I had all the confidence in the two officers that I had on the scene there.  A very senior Brigadier and a senior Major,  with lots of experience Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: Were you in charge of planning for the operation on that day together with your colleague Mr Olshig?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No I don't think I planned, no that day, no, no, no, because the planning was all done beforehand, there was no planning to be done.

BONGANI FINCA: So you were not part of the planning?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: As I have explained Sir I was away for a few days and Brigadier Ngcobo and Major Simms did all the planning with the CDF.

BONGANI FINCA: Is that not an indication of gross irresponsibility ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: With all due respect to you Sir ...(intervention)

BONGANI FINCA: For the Commissioner of Police not to be present at a time like that?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Sir the planning was done and what's happened on that day with the planning the police did, even today I
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am satisfied, because from the Police side nothing went wrong.  And that doesn't mean that anything went wrong from the Army side, I am not there to point a finger.  I wasn't at the scene where the shooting started.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Chairperson.

MR POTGIETER: Pumpla we are trying to wrap up as soon as we can.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I won't be long.  Thank you Chairperson.  General you told us that people must choose their leaders, I think you have given us an opportunity to reflect on that question, and also just in terms of the way you have demonstrated your callousness, your coldness and insensitivity shows us the kinds of leaders that the South African government chose to head its important department, and the strategies they used to ensure that those kinds of leaders are transported to the Homeland governments which they created.  I would like you to tell us, I would like you to imagine a situation where those dead bodies you saw on the stadium were White bodies and if the families here today were families of victims who died at that stadium were White, what would your response be?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I can assure you the very same.  I am no racist.  I am an African as much as what you are, I just happen to be a White African.