Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-25

MR BERGER: I see you answered in English that time, you said "yes".

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: In fact you've been through all the questions and all the answers with your legal representatives, you've been through your application and you've been through the affidavit which you made at pages 141 to 143 and am I correct to say that you are satisfied with everything that is written there except the parts that you pointed out in your evidence this morning?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Everything else has been properly, faithfully and accurately recorded.  Am I correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now to come to the pertinent question, it's question 5 on page 136.  You were asked
"Did Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Nglovu visit Kwamadala after the attack?"

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Your answer was exactly the same, yes.  You answered yes in Sotho and you answered yes in English on page 139.  Your answer now again is yes.  5.1
"Give particulars of the nature of this visit"
It's not a simple question if one doesn't understand English or Afrikaans.  You answer 5.1:
"They called a meeting of the hostel dwellers"
That is correct is it not?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: 5.2: "Did Mr Khosa warn hostel dwellers at the meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood?"
What part of that question - well in fact I beg your pardon -there's nothing in that question that you didn't understand, am I right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: My advocate made a mistake somewhere because I said to him if ever an order was taken out to burn bloodstained clothes I was not there.  He might have said it but I was not in the meeting yet.

MR BERGER: So let's just get clarity, you understood the question perfectly well, there was no problem with understanding what the question was?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Where the dispute comes is you now say that your answer was not a simple yes, your answer was much longer than a simple yes, am I right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I repeat, my answer is he might have said it but I was not in the meeting yet.  The mistake arose from my advocate when he wrote this down.

MR BERGER: So you gave a long answer and your advocate recorded it as a simple yes, that's your evidence today?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that that answer is not the truth?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: To me it's the truth.

MR BERGER: And you see it goes further than that, because in the statement where you were recounting what happened during the attack and after the attack, you give a full explanation and then at page 143 you say that
"shortly after the attack we burnt the goods which came from Boipatong.  Mkhize and Damara gave that instruction."
Is that part correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You then go on to say
"Themba Khosa said during a meeting after the attack that we must burn the bloodied clothes"

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: Yes now in response to the question
"Did Mr Khosa warn hostel dwellers at a meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked the attackers to a massacre including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood"
You now say that your answer was not yes, your answer was:
"He might have said so but I didn't hear him because I came late"

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That's what I said.

MR BERGER: But your answer is not "no".  Mr Mkhize and Mr Xongo gave that instruction.  That's not your answer is it?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Mr Mkhize and Mr Damara issued out an instruction to burn the goods that were stolen from Boipatong to hide evidence.

MR BERGER: And what about the clothes stained with blood, did they say that those must also be burnt?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I did not hear anything to that effect.

MR BERGER: But the clothes stained with blood weren't to hide the evidence of the massacre, isn't that right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: The goods that were burnt included television sets, microwave ovens and video machines.  These were goods stolen from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And bloodied clothes?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I did not hear anything of the bloodied clothes.

MR BERGER: So where did your advocate get this sentence at page 143, that Themba Khosa said during a meeting of the attack that we must burn the bloodied clothes.  Where did he get that sentence from if not from you?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He might have made a mistake.  I explained to him as I am doing now.

MR BERGER: I put it to you Mr Mkwanazi that there was no mistake here, that this paragraph like the rest of the statement was faithfully and accurately recorded by your advocate from what you told him on the 11th June 1998.

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: What we've just discussed now is incorrect.  On that day I was telling him everything I recalled.

MR BERGER: Now is it correct that at the time you were friendly with Mr Jack Mbele?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you're still friendly with him aren't you?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: We're still friends.

MR BERGER: You were also friendly with Mr Timothy Stalz Mazabuka?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you're still friends?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now you say that you were armed with a kierie is that right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: The state witness, Mr Malloy, said you were armed with a kierie, so he was correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He said that you were in a group that were breaking windows, so he was telling the truth?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He also said that he saw you come out of a house with other attackers and that you were carrying looted goods, so he was telling the truth?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So he was quite an accurate witness as far as you were concerned, would you agree?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I agree.

MR BERGER: He also said that the following day you said that you had raped someone in Boipatong during the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is a blatant lie, the situation within the township was very tense.  There was gunfire all over and screams of people, such an action would have never taken place.  Even the members of our group were not known to each other, almost all of them because we were many, there were many of us, we would only know each other by white headbands.  Such an action would have never taken place, no one would have raped on that day.  I believe if you were found on the bed you would be killed mistakenly for someone who lives in that house.

MR BERGER: Firstly, why do you say the rapes were taking place on a bed?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I believe raping, sleeping with a woman, takes place on a bed.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkwanazi, I'm not going to debate the point with you that rape is not a sexual act, it's an act of violence, it's an act of power and it doesn't have to take place on a bed.  The point is that Mr Malloy who accurately gave accurate evidence according to you about everything that you did or that he saw you doing during the attack should suddenly be mistaken about what you said a day after the attack.  Can you explain that?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He is mistaken when it comes to the issue of rape because he did not see me raping.  He says he heard it from me, I never said that, that is a blatant lie.

MR BERGER: Either you did rape during the attack or you're aware of the fact that people were raped and you in the euphoria after the attack tried to claim some credit for yourself?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is not the truth.