Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

MR BOOYENS: Now, let us go to this all, this memory of  yours that seems to have something that you just remembered at the scene.  Mr Mbelo, you had to recall, when did you and Mr Williams visit the scene?  Shortly before you did your application, obviously, I am not sure when that was.  Some time last year, I presume.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It was during this year before I made my affidavit.

MR BOOYENS: And this is the first time when you remembered again under what circumstances you saw Mr Bellingan shooting the deceased.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Booyens, may I interrupt.  If you put page, page to page 352, he seems to give a different version.  There he says that he saw Mr Bellingan shooting this person, dragging this person outside the Kombi, I suppose, and shooting this person outside.  Did you see page 352, right on top?

MR BOOYENS: I was going to get to that.  At hundred, 103, but also, maybe, I will deal with the other one just now.
	Well, if you did not remember this, how is it that and what does this mean,
"As they explained as how to Bellingan shot this person. He took this person and he dragged this person outside and shot this person outside.  That is how this person fell to the ground."
Now, who is the "they who explained"?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Can I first read the question which was put to me first?

MR BOOYENS: Well, I think you better first read the sentence, then I will put the question.  Have you read it?

JUDGE MILLER: It is at the very top of page 352, first line.

MR BOOYENS: Now, ... (intervention).

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, with due respect, this Section 29 of mine, I never read it.  It is the first time I see it in front of me.

MR BOOYENS: It is not what you read, it is what you said we are interested in.  Answer the question.
	Why did you say, "as they explained"?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not know, I think I might, I was trying to say "I", as I explain how Bellingan shot the person.

MR BOOYENS: But that is nonsensical.  I, as I tried to explained as to how Bellingan shot this person.  He took this person, that is nonsense.  Nobody would answer a question like that.  What this sentence say, I think, as a reasonable interpretation of it is, it says to me that you do not know how Bellingan shot this person, somebody else explained it to you and what they explained to you is that he dragged the person outside and shot him.  That is what I read in this.  Now, tell me what is wrong with that interpretation?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, nobody telled me how Bellingan shot the person.

MR BOOYENS: You see, if you would be so kind to turn to page 105, 354 of the record, line 18, here we have got yet a different story.  Read the question by Ms Barens and then you read your answer and then you can try and explain it to us.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I still say the man was in the Kombi, that is what I was trying to say and he was dragged outside and while he was dragged, he was shot.

MR BOOYENS: No, you did not say it there, read it again.  "The man was shot inside the van, was dragged outside, as I have already demonstrated.  He was found in the Kombi and he was dragged outside and they were shooting whilst dragging him at the same time."
So, that seems to be another version.  In, two versions in one sentence.  What was going on here?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When I was demonstrating, I was demonstrating how the man was pulled.  I was not demonstrating how the man was found in the Kombi.

MR BOOYENS: Look, isn't the true position, Mr Mbelo, and I think everybody will understand it, if you say to us at the stage when the incident involving Mr Bellingan happened, you yourself were under fire, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was under fire before even Mr Bellingan shot the person he shot.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and it is quite natural that if you are under fire, you would be far more interested to see who is shooting at you and getting out of the way than you would be in what somebody else is doing, because your own life is in danger, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is what I did, but the person was shooting at me.  I have already left him behind, because my car was in the front.  He was already on the ground, the person who shot at my car.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but there was still some other shooting going on as well, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, there were some other shootings going on in the bushes on my left-hand side.

MR BOOYENS: And you did not know whether those people in the bush were shooting at you or shooting at anybody else, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I did not know.

MR BOOYENS: So, that must have worried you?  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.  That is what I said.  I was not excited, but I was afraid that time.

MR BOOYENS: Now, the person ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, has he got the ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he got the plan there?  (end of tape 3A).
Have you seen this plan before?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I saw it before.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, J is the vehicle you were in, is it not?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were now looking at Mr Bellingan, where was he?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When I saw Mr Bellingan he was next to the Kombi marked A.

CHAIRPERSON: He was next to the Kombi marked A.  So, where was the shooting from your left coming from?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The shooting from my left was coming from the bushes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you show them on the plan?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The sound was coming from the bushes marked TSOP somewhere there, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you

MR BOOYENS: And the person who was shooting, had been shooting at you, we know had been approximately in the vicinity of D and E.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So, when he shot at you, you obviously took cover behind the Kombi, in other words, away from it?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did not took cover behind the Kombi or I was inside the Kombi, I was still driving towards the intersection on, the man was shooting at me.

MR BOOYENS: Right and when there was, now, at the stage when Mr Bellingan shot the man, were you outside the Kombi and was the shooting coming from your left-hand side?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, when I was outside the Kombi, I heard some gunshots in the bushes.

MR BOOYENS: As you said, on your left-hand side?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: Now, where were you then in relation to your own Kombi?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was outside next to my Kombi.

MR BOOYENS: Which side?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: On the passenger side, because my front, my drivers door did not open or did not want to open, because they shot it, they shot the ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: The door handle off.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: ... door handle was off.

MR BOOYENS: So, you were, in other words, and you showed us yesterday at the inspection where you parked, you were on the passenger side of your Kombi between the side of the road and the Kombi.  Is that right?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: And that is when the incident with Bellingan happened at the other Kombi?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: And at the same time the shooting was coming from your left?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: There was a lot of shooting, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Shooting coming from your left at the bushes at T, S and R you said.  You want to change that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Now, if that is the case, you would have had your back turned to Bellingan, how could you see what he was doing?