Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

MR MALAN: Nothing discussed during those three hours, nothing talked about?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It's a long time ago, we must have discussed numerous topics, I suppose activities in Durban, other activities but we never certainly discussed anything about Mr Bhila.

MR MALAN: You discussed all the other activities but not Bhila who is the centre of attention at that moment?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No sir.

MR MALAN: You also gave evidence that you had knowledge about the whereabouts of Mr Ngewene and knew where he was?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.

MR MALAN: Where was he at that stage?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was ninety percent of the time at Alan Taylor residence and also in the Transkei, he would disappear down to the Transkei in between and return.

MR MALAN: But you also had knowledge about the whereabouts of Mr Bhila, you knew where he stayed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.

MR MALAN: On questions ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on.  He had been in detention for how long?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I'm under correction your Chair, but I would imagine a year plus, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what you're talking about is what happened before he was taken into detention?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What you would have been interested in this day, on this day is where he had been for the last three days and only the last three days.  Did you know?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No I didn't know that, not myself, not personally.

MR MALAN: You responded under cross-examination by Mr Ngubane to a question saying that you were trained not to divulge any information on illegal actions.  Is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Actually on all actions.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn now?  We'll take the adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: (s.u.o.)

MR MALAN: Mr Wasserman on your application in the second bundle, it's part of the same application on page  well not the second bundle, the first - what did we refer to it as?  Zandile bundle, on page 123 and take it this is part of your same application, it's unfortunately given to us in bits and pieces in the different bundles and we don't have the full application with us yet.  At the bottom in paragraph 7 you say that you were
"involved in the foundation and the maintenance and the expansion of certain operational structures."
Can you tell us what this is about?  What structures are you talking about?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: May I put these earphones on and have it translated for me properly, sir?

MR MALAN: Sorry?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: May I have it translated into English properly?

MR MALAN: Well you wrote it in Afrikaans but ask your lawyer to translate for you.  Should I try and do it?  Alright listen, I'll read it again and then you can listen to the translation.
"In order to solve this kind of problem I was involved in the foundation, maintenance and expansion of certain operational structures"
What structures are you referring to?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I'm sorry Mr Chairman, my set wasn't working but it's fine now, could you just start at the very beginning?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you start again?

MR MALAN: I'll read it again.
"In order to solve these kind of problems I was involved in the foundation, maintenance and expansion of certain operational structures."
What structures are you referring to?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I need that whole sentence to be read out.

MR MALAN: Alright, I'll just continue
"operational structures of which both covert and overt operations were launched."
I'll read it again:
"these are now the structures from where both overt and covert operations were launched."

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: And the question is sir, what do I understand by that?

MR MALAN: What structures are you referring to?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: There were covert operations in order to achieve the objectives of our operational tasks.

MR MALAN: No, that we accept but here you make a different statement.  You are saying that you were involved with the setting up of structures, operational structures or involved in the establishment, the maintenance and the expansion or development of certain operational structures.  We're not talking activities or actions.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Oh okay, sir.

MR MALAN: Or programmes, we're talking about structures.  One would assume that would be a kind of a body that was set up?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I understand now sir, I'm sorry about that I had problems with the headphones and now I understand the question.  Yes I was involved in the establishment, that was the restructuring of our sections and our units in our methods and forms.

MR MALAN: In which way, was that an internal restructuring of your unit, methods and forms?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes it was.

MR MALAN: You were involved?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was a member of the unit.

MR MALAN: No, no, that's not what you're saying here, you are saying that you were actively involved, I'm using the actively because that's what it's saying.  You were involved
"I was involved with the foundation of certain operational structures"
What structures are you talking about?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I think it's word that in English I wouldn't have used it.

MR MALAN: Now what would you have used?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was involved in the creation of new methods, new tactics, new ways of countering the military problem that was ahead of us.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us something about that?  New methods, new ways?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well the creation of informer networks across the borders.

MR MALAN: Yes?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That was my principle involvement in the restructuring of our operational ethos Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: If you read what is immediately preceding this paragraph 7 on page 123, you are referring to the general threat, the revolutionary onslaught, paragraph 3, that you were against this kind of philosophy.  Page 4, that you believed that your actions were justifiable.  Paragraph 5, you refer to the no go areas internally.  Paragraph 6 that you saw it as your task to prevent the execution of such attacks and then suddenly in 7 you refer to certain structures that were founded.  You're not referring to any cross border operations here, you're referring to the internal threat, security threat as you perceived it.  If I put it to you that every applicant in the second bundle makes exactly the same statement in their paragraph 7 with the exception of one, which is Mr Vorster, where he says in that paragraph, not that he was involved but that he had knowledge of certain structures, of these structures.  What structures are you referring to, Mr Wasserman?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: As I've already said this must be the structures within the security branch that were formed, the remodelling of my unit, it must have been that structure.  I was not part of any other structure.

MR MALAN: If you say it must have been then it seems that you're not owning this paragraph, that you simply try to interpret what someone else wrote on your behalf?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: This is rather the legal side rather than mine.

MR MALAN: But Mr Wasserman, did you not read your application before you gave it over?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I did.

MR MALAN: So when you read this paragraph did it not make any impression on you?  You're talking about structures that were suddenly founded because of the threat?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I took it to be as I've explained to the Commission that that would have sufficed.