Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: It will be an entire period, perhaps even on the following day I wouldn't be in so, I can't tell exactly what happened on the following day however, most of the times I was around, I was on the other office and I will be invited in, especially at the place where they were interrogating.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you saying that it is possible that you actually or were present during the assault for several days on Mr Phosiwa?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I can vaguely remember that it couldn't have been more than two days, I might have seen him for two days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is there anything else you want to add to your evidence before this hearing regarding your assault on Mr Phosiwa?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, nothing further to that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, if we can now turn to the interrogation of the Rev Phoshwana.  Can we start off by asking you what did you personally do to assault the Rev Phoshwana?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: In a similar manner, the method was just of holding when the electric shocks were being conducted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you slap the Rev Phoshwana at any stage?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I did.  I did slap him.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can just remember that it was just in a similar manner, on the face and on the back.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And were you present when the electric shocks and the wet bag treatment was used on Rev Phoshwana?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was personally present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you do anything more than just holding him so that other persons can give him this treatment?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No.  I didn't do anything beyond that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: This assault by yourself and the other Security Branch policemen on Rev Phoshwana, did it take place over a number of days or only one day?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember vividly, what I can remember is that it may not have been more than two days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: We come now to the fourth person that you have mentioned and that is Mr Mahumela.  Mr Mahumela was a prosecutor at the time, is that correct?

SISI KHAMPEPE: He's the third person, Mr Van Rensburg.  Isn't he the third person?

MS MTANGA: Chikororo, Phosiwa, Phoshwana.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Oh, yes, fine.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you present when the said Mr Mahumela was assaulted?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I was present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you personally assault that said person?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I did beat him.  I slapped him on the face and on the back.  I also held him down as the electric shock was taking place.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And the wet bag?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was merely assisting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: As that bag was put, they will want to resist so I was just holding so that they shouldn't take it off.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you present when Mr Mahumela was assaulted by any of the other policemen in any other way than the ways that you've discussed so far?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I will personally be there at some time but not always.  I might have been out on duty but, during most of the times of his assault, I was there.  He might have been beaten in my absence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Netshivale, we're not talking about things that happened in your absence, we want to know what you're involvement was.  So the question is did any other policeman in your presence assault Mr Mahumela in any other way than the ways that you have mentioned?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, what I can think of is that he was being beaten by other people who were on duty.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And these people, were they members of the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he being beaten?  Was he being hit with open hands or fists, was he being kicked, was he being hit with clubs or any other sort of instrument?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember vividly but he might have been kicked at some stage, he might have been kicked at some stage.  I can't remember so vividly in as far as how the assault took place.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now you've testified that you were actually only involved in a minor way during these assaults on these four persons, is that correct?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes because I will only be invited to come and assist in a similar fashion.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Invited by whom?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: The following people invited me, Mr Managa, Mr Ramaligela and some other senior people whom I cannot recall but these are the people who will invite me.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And as far as you were concerned, what was the object of this torture and interrogation?  Why was it executed on them?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: It is because these people were not really in favour of the then government.  And as such they will be arrested because it was assumed that they wanted to contradict the principles of the then government.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what are you saying, Mr Netshivale?  Are you saying that they were tortured for the sole reason because they were not in favour of the government?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not trying to get - or was not one of the objectives trying to get them to make some sort of confession or other for the purposes of the police investigation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: One reason was that they should really confess as to who were the people involved in the bombing of the police station.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How do you make a statement as you've just made now, that they were arrested because they were not in favour of the then government if you knew, at that time, that the reason for their arrest was to solicit information with regard to the bombing of Sibasa police station?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, the question wasn't put in that fashion.  If it had come that way, I would have answered that they were being beaten so as to bring confession forward.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question was put to you by your lawyer.  Your lawyer was very specific in questioning you, in trying elicit the reason as to why the persons that you've alluded to as having participated in the assault were assaulted.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I didn't interpret it that way.  I thought the question wanted me to say exactly what I said.  Now that you are putting it that way, I now realise that it had something to do with the confession regarding the police station of Sibasa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Interesting.  You may proceed, Mr Van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  During the time of the assaults and the interrogations on these four persons, were they being asked questions at the same time as the assault?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: It wasn't taking place simultaneously.  There was a time when somebody will come in and there will be another person.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm sorry, I didn't follow your answer.  Can you just repeat the answer please?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: What was the question again?

MR VAN RENSBURG: The question was at the time when these people were assaulted, was there certain questions put to them at the same time?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Can you please repeat the question for me?  Are you saying were they being asked personally or are you saying were questions being directed at them at the same time when they were being assaulted?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is were questions being directed at them at the same time during the interrogation and during the assault?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: They will be asked questions at the same time as being beaten and on other occasions they will be beaten without being asked questions regarding the person who bombed the police station.