Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MZWAKE SHANDU: The portion that I was talking about, the money that was to be acquired, it doesn't specify, it was not specified, but according to my agreement with Ziba Mpanza,  it was stated that as a person that was employed, I incurred some expenses during the preparations of this trip, and as a person who had children, I had to, on my way back, I had to be given that money and replace it wherever it came from, it was not that they were thanking me for the role that I had played, or as being played a role in the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: If that was not agreed to, would you have participated in the escapade?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Besides the agreement, I was already part of this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, when you went on this robbery expedition, you say that you knew you had to replace certain moneys, disbursements, why are you unable to tell us what that amount is, because you would have already disbursed it on your way to Empangeni?  You must have known how much you must collect, why are you unable to tell us?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Maybe I did not understand the question, I did not think that the question is about how much was the money that was going to be allocated to me, I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the question was very simple, if I remember it correctly.   This portion you were supposed to receive, how much was that, that was the question, wasn't it?

MZWAKE SHANDU: The money that was supposed to be given to me to pay for the expenses, was R1,000.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do we struggle to get that answer?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I thought, I did not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOHAMED: I have nothing further, Mr Chairman.

MR PANDAY: Mr Shandu, it is correct that the R1,000 was for your leaving work for a couple of days, and taking moneys home, for your children, is that correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I did not understand your question, sir.

MR PANDAY: When you said the R1 000-00 was for expenses, what expenses did you incur?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I think that even comrade Mpanza made mention of the fact that as we were going there,  we were expecting, we knew in advance that a shoot-out would take place, but as Africans, we normally use special herbs and ntelezi before taking such trips.  I am the one who had money to pay for such facilities, because the comrades that were with me, most of them were unemployed.

MR PANDAY: Now earlier on when you gave your evidence, you didn't mention anything about ntelezi or the herbs, it is only now that I bring it to your attention to clarify expenses.  I recall you mentioned about taking leave from work and the days you were going to miss.

MR LAX: Paying money for your children?

MR PANDAY: Paying money for your children, that is why I mentioned your children, you never mentioned herbs?

MZWAKE SHANDU: It is because no one asked me specifically about the money, the purpose that the money was going to be used for.  This is the first time that this question is being posed.

MR PANDAY: No, you are now lying, because the Chairman asked you what were the expenses, what was the money for, you said expenses and then you detailed the expenses.  You had a chance to talk about ntelezi?

MZWAKE SHANDU: If you say I am telling lies,   I take it that is what is on your mind, but I am telling you exactly what happened there, because I was the one who was there, I am the one who was there.

MR PANDAY: Now another curious thing, you mentioned that you joined the Police Force in 1986, to also supply weapons and firearms.  Did you apply for amnesty for these incidents?

MZWAKE SHANDU: What incident are you talking about?

MR PANDAY: Right, okay, in paragraph 3 on page 11, you say the following
"... in 1986 I joined the Police Force."
	You can listen to me, I am reading the paragraph, it is being interpreted to you.
"... in 1986 I joined the Police Force and I should supply them with firearms and rounds of ammunition, taken from exhibits."
	Are you talking about Ziba and Malevu that you should supply firearms?

MZWAKE SHANDU: This is one of the mistakes, no one will ever join the Police Force with the intention of supplying firearms, no one accepts that in the Police Force.  I would never make that mistake, joining the Police Force with the aim of supplying the firearms.

MR PANDAY: But you say this in your affidavit, you did not dispute this part of the affidavit?  You only disputed the part where the filling of the application form was concerned?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No person who is sane, who can join the Police Force and supply the firearms in the Police Force, that will never happen.

MR PANDAY: Okay, you supplied them with rounds of ammunition?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it to you, no sound policeman would embark on a robbery, the public expects but you did it?  Don't come and tell us about the soundness of police minds, answer the question.

MR PANDAY: My question to you again is that, did you supply them with rounds of ammunition?

MZWAKE SHANDU: When I get them, I used to give that to them, but that is not something that I used to have with me all the time, but I would get it and then I would give it to them.

MR PANDAY: So the truth is that before this incident, you used to supply them with rounds of ammunition?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Even though we are not talking about the same people, but it happened, it could have happened that any comrade from the ANC, I would assist that particular comrade with such ammunition.

MR PANDAY: Did you get this ammunition whilst employed at the Police?

MZWAKE SHANDU: We would get, I would get it when I am going to the shooting range.

MR PANDAY: Right, so as a policeman, you should supply ammunition, that is correct now?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I do not understand the question now.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, answer this question before you clarify the other one, this bits of ammunition that you used to give to any comrade as you say, were they, was that ammunition Police issue?  Did you get it from the Police?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you get paid for it?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I would get it when I am going to the shooting range, but I did not understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get paid for it when you gave it to the comrades?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Who would be paying me?

CHAIRPERSON: The comrades who would receive the ammunition?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was not expecting any money from them, because they had nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get paid at times when they did have money?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, it never happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So would you expect to be paid if they had money?  You didn't expect it because they didn't have money, however, what about the reverse?  Weren't you selling ammunition and arms to these people?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was not selling it to them, and I was not even expecting money.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did you explain the missing ammunition to your superiors when you give it away?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was never questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, how did you plan to explain?

MZWAKE SHANDU: That was not possible, because if you are going to the shooting range, you are given a certain amount of ammunition, and it is up to you to use all of them or some of them.  You are not expected to bring them back, the ones that were unused, because in the (indistinct) the superiors would think that you had used all the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: That ammunition was marked, isn't it?  Correct?  All SAPS ammunition is specially marked, not so, and it used to be at that time?  Is that correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I never noticed any marks on the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't know whether any cartridges could be identified as coming from the gun of a policeman?  You didn't know that?

MR LAX: Perhaps we should take the adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MZWAKE SHANDU: (s.u.o.)