Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I would not be able to explain because I think some of them were in their 70's or just less.  Those were the old people who could not run away and were therefore attacked.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Can you tell the Committee whether there were any persons out there, any of the deceased persons who had lost the use of either of their arms as a result of being aged or as a result of a deformity?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: Yes, there was a person who had a bent arm and also his leg was deformed.  He could not have run away.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Cele, do you belong to any political party?  Let me rephrase that rather please, during the period 1992 when this incident occurred, did you belong to any political party?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: No, I was not affiliated to any political organisation.  I just experienced this attack and I did not know why I was being attacked.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Cele, my instructions are that you in fact were one of the members or a member of this group that had attacked the IFP in the Gcabashe area, on a previous occasion.  Can you perhaps comment on that?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I have never been part of any attack because I wasn't affiliated to any political organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when the people went to the house of Mr Luthuli and when Mr Luthuli and a certain Mr Sithole died?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I did not go there because I was not even at home when it occurred.  I did not have any knowledge of this matter.
	I think people were just killed for no apparent reason.  The people who were alleged to have been responsible for that killing, actually fled and moved away from the area.  These people just came and attacked us.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Were you perhaps present when Thulani Zulu was killed?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I was not present.  I have no knowledge regarding the deaths of those people.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Of all the people that were killed at the time that you were attacked at Mthetwa's house, can you tell the Committee whether any of those persons including Mr Mthetwa, whether he belonged to either the ANC or the IFP as a political party?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: They were not affiliated to any political organisation.  There was no political activity in the area.  They have just fabricated these lies, because they knew that the amnesty process was about political activities.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I put it to you Mr Cele that my instructions are specifically that you were a member of the ANC and that you were part of this group that attacked the people of the IFP area and that the attack upon yourselves was politically motivated by the applicant and the other persons that he mentioned in his evidence.

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: The attack on those people may have been, but I do not know because I was not affiliated to any organisation.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I put it to you as well that amongst other reasons, the reason why they had attacked you and the deceased and the other person that was injured, was because they wanted to prevent any further attacks upon the IFP as a political organisation.

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I will say that the reference to the ANC or the IFP is just pure fabrication.  There was no political activity.  At one point Zulu, who is sitting directly in front of me, once threatened me with a steel pipe and I went to the Chief's house and I wanted to see if he would actually follow me to that Chief's house, and he did not.
	That was even before there was any conflict.  He was just threatening me, I don't know for what reason.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I put it to you Mr Cele, that had you personally had any experiences of the applicant's criminal activities, you would have given evidence about that in your evidence in chief.

MR LAX: Frankly, he wasn't led on that Mr Maharaj, so please, it is not fair to put that.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you.  I withdraw the question.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAHARAJ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Mr Cele, what were you doing at Mr Mthetwa's house?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I had gone there with my father, we had actually been dipping our cattle and he said we should go because people were drinking there.  I was actually waiting for my father and that is when this happened.  I was just waiting there for my father.

MS THABETE: When you were sitting there talking, did you talk politics, what were you talking about?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: We were just talking and we were not aware that such people were going to come and attack us.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you talk about politics?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: No, we were not discussing anything, we were just sitting.

MS THABETE: Did you take part or did you ever take part in any attacks that occurred in the area?

CHAIRPERSON: He already said he didn't.

MS THABETE: He said he didn't take part when the Luthuli house was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask it.  It is the only attack we know, any way.

MS THABETE: I am just trying to establish his involvement, whether he was involved in any attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask the question.

MS THABETE: Were you involved in any attacks in the area?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: No, I have never taken part in any attack.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just two Mr Chairperson.  According to the applicant, he was a member of the IFP, he was a Youth Organiser.  What do you say about that?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: He is just making this up because he wants to be released from prison.   There is just no such.

MR SIBANYONI: According to him, they had information that a meeting, an ANC meeting will take place at Mthetwa's house.  What do you say about that?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: Yes, they would have come to that place, but it is only the four of them who actually eventually arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: The question Mr Cele was, the applicant has said as did Mr Luthuli, that the information given to them, the applicant, was that an ANC meeting was taking place at Mthetwa's premises.  What do you say about that, was there an ANC meeting taking place at Mthetwa's premises?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: There was never a meeting at Mthetwa's place, because Mthetwa was not affiliated to any political organisation.
	There were people who were just there, you know, who were just on their way.  Some of them were on their way and some were just sitting.  He is lying.

MR SIBANYONI: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from the questions put by Mr Sibanyoni?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAHARAJ

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes my evidence.  Thank you Mr Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cele, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down and go back to your seat in the auditorium.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I see now it is very late.  The question of submissions, would you prefer to hand in written submissions, or would you prefer to make submissions now Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, I would prefer to make written submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want to make written submissions, you can.

MS THABETE: I would do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: When do you think you would be able to make your submissions by, Mr Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Chairman, is it necessary for the Committee to reconvene for those submissions to be made?