Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

UNKNOWN: You are therefore asking this Honourable Committee to grant you amnesty with regard to the charges on which you have been found guilty, the culpable homicide and other, is that the case?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is the case.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: .

JUDGE WILSON: Any further witness you intend to call?

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Now, I am not quite sure what the arrangement is which is being arrived at between council.  Do we start with cross-examination of this applicant or do we revert to Mr Harmse?

UNKNOWN: I think Mr Black has got a certain way.  He said he is going to ask them together, I am not sure.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: For record purposes, perhaps as a matter of convenience we could commence with Mr Froneman and then clarify issues with Mr Harmse.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you have any objections to that?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV PRINSLOO: No objection, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.

MR BLACK: Mr Froneman, what I don't find entirely clear, at the time this act was committed who was the enemy as it were.  War had been declared as far as you were concerned and who did you regard to be the enemy?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, the enemy at that time was the government which wanted to hand our country over to the ANC/SACP alliance.

MR BLACK: But you testified that you selected the target and you chose a commercial shopping complex in the Indian, situated I presume in the Indian community
Bronkhorstspruit?  Why did you choose that target, it is not a government building and there are not government officials who occupy that building, I assume?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, yes, we did also act
against he ANC, or we did fight against the ANC and other forces who were against our faith and so forth, and that is why I selected the Indian shopping complex.  Since the Muslim community were - I would say that the Muslim community at that time were majority of ANC supporters.  Or a majority of the members of the Indian community were ANC supporters.

MR BLACK: I just want to expand a little bit on that.  In selecting the target, did you have any personal knowledge as to whether or not the people who occupied that complex were either Muslim or ANC supporters or possibly supporters of the government of the day?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, no, I did not have such personal knowledge but in my view, most Indians were Muslims.  The Indian community in general in my view, were Muslims.

MR BLACK: What did you hope to achieve by assisting with the planting of the bomb at that complex?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: We wanted to show the government and other enemy forces that we were intent on taking back our country by armed force, with violence if they did not want to give our original republics back to us.

MR BLACK: But what I am trying to get at is, why plant a bomb at a commercial shopping complex?  What did you think was going to happen?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: It was my impression that we would damage the buildings, and having damaged the buildings that we would show that we are continuing with the war.

MR BLACK: Did you at the time have knowledge of what Mr Harmse has informed the Committee that a bomb, that bomb
which was manufactured, it could be detonated or could
explode should somebody shake it or move it or if a heavy vehicle had to drive past?  Did you know that that bomb could have just gone off in that manner or with that type of disturbance?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct, Honourable Chairman, and that is why I held the bomb while we were driving to Bronkhorstspruit, since it was so highly unstable.

MR BLACK: So you knew that if any person or body had to touch or disturb the bomb sufficiently, it could be exploded, it wasn't a controlled detonation, it would have to be disturbed by somebody or some movement, is that so?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct, Honourable Chairman.

MR BLACK: Did you think or consider rather, that people would be opening the shop and would be coming to that complex in the morning?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, at that time I was still very young.  I was given instructions and as we were told by the Boer Resistance Movement, if you get an instruction as a troop, then you were not supposed to argue with the officer who had given you the instruction, you just had to carry out the instruction.

MR BLACK: But, then what were your instructions?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The instruction which I had received was to assist Mr Harmse in carrying out his orders.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black would there be any difference between this bomb and say a landmine planted in a farm road?

MR BLACK: With respect, no, there is no difference in that sense.  The difference between a controlled explosion or a non-controlled explosion and a landmine would be similar to this type of bomb which could injure people
indiscriminately.   Perhaps I could just make it quite clear, I understand from your evidence that although a war had been declared in your mind, you didn't want to kill anybody, is that what you are saying?  Or you didn't think people would be killed?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: At that time I had not thought of this, no, Honourable Chairman.

MR BLACK: But had you been ordered to insure that somebody got killed, you would carry out those orders?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I would have had to carry it out, Honourable Chairman.

MR BLACK: Did you think, consider, selecting a government building or a semi-government building as one of the targets?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No Honourable Chairman, we did not in particular consider a government building.

MR BLACK: But the government was your enemy?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The government was our enemy yes.  But our most serious enemy at that time was the emerging parties who would have eventually oppressed us were they to become the government.

MR BLACK: So, I just want to sum up correctly, this was a building occupied by civilians, a bomb was - which was selected by yourselves, the building was selected by yourself only because you thought that it was perhaps occupied or frequented by and owned by an Indian community who you thought may well be Muslim?  Is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I was under the impression that the Muslim community were great supporters of the ANC.  I also believed that the Indian community were Muslims.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In that case Mr Froneman, did you know the
political affiliation of the Indians who were conducting
business in that shopping centre?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, I did not particularly know their political views.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, how do you then reconcile that with the fact that you had to select a target and associate it with the ANC which posed a threat to your political ideals?  Why choose a target which, in your evidence, has no association at all to your political opponent?

JUDGE WILSON: Before you answer that question, I would like to ask my  co-committee member whether that is a fair question when you said you believed Indians were Muslims and Muslims were keen supporters of the ANC?  You cannot therefor say there was no connection with your political opponent, can you?

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you do know that the Indian community consist of both Muslims and Hindus?  There are quite a number of faiths within the Indian community and your interest was in targeting the Muslim faith and not the other faiths within the Indian community?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, I don't understand what the question is.  What is the question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: To your knowledge, a large percentage of the Muslim community belong to the ANC and that was the reason why you selected that particular shopping centre, because you believed that the majority of the people who were conducting business in that shopping centre, were Muslims.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is what I believed, yes, Honourable Chairman.