Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Yes thank you Mr Chairman we shall do so.   Yes Mr Chairman we are in possession of his evidence before the Harms Commission, I will discuss it with my instructing attorney to determine in which way it can be made available to the Commission.

UNKNOWN: Even if we can be referred to the correct pages and so on.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Yes Mr Chairman I will not be able to do that after the adjournment it will take some time to link all the matters that amnesty is sought for...(end of 2a)...
yes no then it will be possible to do that if the evidence
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MR DE WET-MARAIS	243	ADDRESS
is here today.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman the references in the Harms Commission to the Lourens case, paragraph 16 in the amnesty application, you will find on page 200, lines 17-19 and on page 655 from line 8-28 and on page 656 from line 13 through page 657 to line 2.   There may be further references that I couldn't find now, I don't have my notes of the Harms Commission, if I find that I will include it in the submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: These are the references from the Harms Commission report?

MR DE WET-MARAIS: From the evidence, the evidence by this applicant before the Harms Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: From the evidence before the Harms Commission.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: About the Lourens murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we are now in the hands of Advocate Jansen on matter No 2 in the Dirk Coetzee and Tshikalanga applications, paginated page 7.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you commence it has come to our attention that there have been reports in the press that Eugene De Kock has been subpoenaed to appear before this Committee to give evidence.   This was on the radio yesterday and again some reference was made to it this morning.   My enquiries have revealed that there is no such thing, no subpoena has been issued by this Committee to Eugene De Kock to appear before us.   What has happened, I am given to understand, is that Mr Mpshe has drawn the attention of Mr Eugene De Kock that he has been implicated in the evidence that has been given before us and that because he is implicated, his
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CHAIRMAN	244
attention is drawn to it and he is afforded an opportunity to react to it in whichever way he may consider appropriate.  I think that there has been a misrepresentation in the media that there was in fact a subpoena issued to De Kock.   I am hoping that this kind of mis-reporting does not occur again, a little bit of care on the part of the media will eliminate this kind of difficulty because it leads to other problems and telephone calls are being directed to members of the Committee from all sorts of people and at all times of the day and one wants to try and avoid that.   Thank you.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, before I proceed I have drafted a short list of the incidents that we have dealt with by way of confirmations, which was done yesterday, as well as the two matters which we intend to deal by way of confirmation now.   Mr Chairman I have an original handwritten one and four copies for the members.   There are two columns, the first column refers to the application number as you would note, the application Annexure deals with the different incidents by number.   That number is followed by the paginated number of the application, I've derived that merely by adding four page numbers to the typed page number and then the second column are references to the manuscript, firstly the paragraph of the manuscript and its page.   As it pleases you Mr Chairman I then wish to call Mr Coetzee again to testify.
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee you have your application which has been submitted to this Committee as well as your manuscript which is evidence book No 1 before the Committee, before you is that correct?
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MR JANSEN	245	D J COETZEE

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: If I could refer you to matter No 2 of your application, the murders of Peter Nglamini and Selbe Mavuso, which is found on page 108 of your manuscript.

ANSWER: I've got the manuscript Mr Chairman and I've got it on the application too, that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: You have been afforded the opportunity to go through these two documents again before testifying now, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Will you confirm the content of these two documents, subject to your evidence yesterday concerning the history of the manuscript?

ANSWER: I so do confirm it.

<UNKNOWN>: Shortly, Peter Nglamini and Selbe Mavuso fall in two different categories.   Peter Nglamini was a person working for Vlakplaas at the time he was killed?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the basic motive behind killing him?

ANSWER: Posing a threat, I don't think he was completely -with all respect - all there as far as mental capabilities were concerned, and secondly he wrote a letter to the Commissioner complaining about the things going on a Vlakplaas.   I was then instructed by Brigadier Schoon to deal with him at the same time as when I dealt with Vusi, Selbe Mavuso who then at the time was detained at Brits Prison after being abducted from Mozambique on the Mtola raid in February 1990 by the army, in conjunction with some of the Vlakplaas askaris.   Peter Nglamini, an ANC member who studied in Bulgaria if I have it right and then went to the South African authorities when he became disillusioned
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MR JANSEN	246	D J COETZEE
with the ANC and was then brought back to South Africa by the South African Security Police.   After debriefing by the debriefing team which was usually Col Jack Buchner, the later Commissioner of the KwaZulu police and Col (indistinct) Baker, retired as a Brigadier, they were the two people who were usually debriefing the ANC cadres.

CHAIRPERSON: Then treated as an askari?

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Or did he join the police?

ANSWER: That's right Mr Chairman.   I don't think he was a fully-fledged member yet of the police but he was on Vlakplaas as an askari.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it Peter Nglameni whom you said seemed to be mentally disturbed?

ANSWER: As I say, not completely mentally disturbed but, I don't know how to put it, but not all there, you could see some times he was acting peculiar, in a peculiar way.

CHAIRPERSON: So the instructions to you to attend to this matter was given by who?

ANSWER: Brigadier Schoon at the same time as I got the instruction to get rid of Selbe Mavuso.
MR JANSEN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Selbe Mavuso was a political detainee?

ANSWER: That's correct, he was held under the Security Act, I can't remember exactly what Act it was, at Brits police station.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you regard the actions in respect of Mr Mavuso comparable to those in relation to Mr Sizwe Kondile?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman just to remind you that was matter No 3 which was one of the matters that was dealt with in
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MR JANSEN	247	D J COETZEE
Durban.   It is matter No 3 on paginated page 10.   If I could then refer you to the next incident, the incident of the attempted kidnapping of General, it is matter No 11, typed page 21 of the application and page 103 of the manuscript, paginated 25.   103, paragraph 5.4.14.4.   Again you have had the opportunity to read the content of both documents as it relates to the person called General, is that correct?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you confirm under oath what is contained in these documents?

ANSWER: I do so confirm.

<UNKNOWN>: Just to clear up again, it is said that the intention was to kidnap him and to eliminate him afterwards.  Was there a firm decision taken at that stage that he would be eliminated or was it merely a question of assuming that that would be a high probability of what would happen to him?