Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, what happened was that Mr van Zyl did not really want to meet with me in the first sitting, in the second sitting things changed.  I think the cross-examination started worrying him and then he went to some trouble to go up to me and meet me and greet me.  That made me feel a bit uncomfortable, but I wasn't quite sure what he was planning because it only happened afterwards, so I did talk to him.  I think it was the third sitting when he came to me to greet me, I told him to fuck off because he's a two-face.  It was the morning here when I was here the first time.  And there's a reason why I did this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever ask him why at your trial apparently in your favour where you were charged with the attempted murder of Adv Omar, his evidence was that you did not give him a Makarov or he did not instruct you to attempt to kill Adv Omar?  Did you ever ask Van Zyl why he had departed from the truth before his Lordship, Mr Justice Els?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I did not ask him.  I had no contact him at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were in custody.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I was in custody and I saw Mr van Zyl the morning he walked in and as I told you, he was cold and calculated, he went to the box and gave me 10 years.  He did not want to do me any favours.  He stuck with the statement of 1988, where he said he made all the revelations or disclosures.  It was with that statement of that time that he did not want to veer off from that.  I was already in maximum prison, there was no access to me by him.

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to this strongly stated suggestion that other people got packages but you because you were differently treated, did not get a package because you were not a CCB member, how did it come about that you joined a new organisation after the supposed dissolution of the CCB?  Please give us some detail, because I don't believe that anyone has canvassed this in any detail.  Was it or was it not a payoff?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I see it as a payoff because what happened was that I returned from holiday but I had an instruction to go and see Witkop Badenhorst, to phone him at a specific number.  Upon my return I spoke to him, it was a C30 vehicle phone, and there was an arrangement made that I would see him at Adv Hennie Coetzee's offices or Hennie Goosen's office in Pretoria.  An arrangement was made and I saw him there and at that same time he had some litigation of a private nature in his offices and with my first interview with Witkop Badenhorst he told me that people will contact me and will then appoint me at Military Intelligence.  You can probably see it as a payoff, I haven't thought of it in that way, but I was transferred from one Defence Force organisation to another in a period of two weeks.  It was an internal transfer.

GEORGE BIZOS: With what benefits in the new position?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was told from the beginning that I will be dealt with in a covert nature, because of the background of the CCB and the media coverage that I've already enjoyed at that stage.  I became a bit frustrated so I wrote them a slightly sarcastic letter where I said I'm not willing to do this work, to be treated as an informer, I wanted to know what my tasks were and what my benefits were.  I had a girlfriend who was pregnant, I wanted to make a career of this.  I thought of it in a very serious light.  They then appointed me as an agent and then at a later stage as a chief agent.

GEORGE BIZOS: To do what?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, initially it was about collecting information, but people once very strongly requested me to sharpen my criminal contacts.  They concentrated on the MK which ran together with the criminal world.  They systematically changed it into a dirty tricks department, as I described in my evidence-in-chief.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did the dirty tricks include killings?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, yes, but I was not directly involved in any of the murders, but I do have knowledge of two which I did not mention in my evidence-in-chief.  If you want me to, I can mention what I know about it, I had indirect involvement in one of them, apart from the Francis incident where I was directly instructions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which are the two?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, the one was Jan Shoba who was a PAC/APLA Commander.  What happened there was that it was during the time of the Waverley House, and in one of my co-ordinating sessions there was a computer printout, Mr Jan Shoba's name was on it and there was another brochure from a Hancock person, I cannot recall the rest of the details.  I received certain tasks.  I had to go through all this documentation, it was about their movements in and out of the country.  It was the normal information from an intelligence computer.
	Three days later I read Die Beeld and then I saw Jan Shoba was killed in Atteridgeville in a drive-by shooting, I think it was an AK47, and just after I read it, because I thought here I'm sitting the documents and this was a burning issue then and now suddenly this person is killed, I read his name in the newspapers.  	Half an hour later Eugene de Kock and his whole team of askaris arrived and some of these members arrived at the Waverley House and I could see that they did not sleep, they were unshaven, they worked right through the night.  I called Mr de Kock to the side and I asked him if they killed him and he said no, he did not know of it.  I did not think he'd say yes.  I told him: "Yes, well I received this documentation and now I see in the newspaper that this persons was killed, tell me if you were involved or not".  He said no, he just went to go and burn a house.  But Rieg Verster did admit to me at a later stage that they killed him, that he was personally involved, I do not in what capacity, but that they killed him.
	Then there was another incident and if you want me to I will describe it to you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, please let's have it.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I was contacted one evening at approximately 2 o'clock in the morning by Mr Verster, not Joe Verster, Rieg Verster, I was told to go to a specific point close to the Ultra City where he'd meet me, from there we drove.  It was on the Morula Sun road.  I had to go and steal a vehicle.  What happened was that they killed a person who was a double-agent.  He was in possession of a bakkie or pick-up which can be traced back to the DCC.  It was a bakkie that he was issued with.  They killed him and what happened was that he was outside of the vehicle when he was shot and in some way or another he threw away the keys and they could not find it in the dark and I was then contacted to remove the vehicle.  I took the pick-up and I drove behind them up to Oom Gert se Gat, where it was stored and the vehicles were used in abductions and it was also stored at that house.
	There was a basement where you could pull the vehicles in.  Nobody gave me the person's name, but they told me that he was a double-agent that was eliminated.  There was also blood against the vehicle and also a bullet hole in the bodywork.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Bizos, if I could just ask a question before it slips my mind.
	When you were employed or worked for the DCC, did you receive a monthly salary?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I received a fixed salary and hundred percent medical coverage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos referred you to your amnesty application earlier on, on page 205, and your answer to one of the questions was that you worked for the South African Defence Force during the period '88 to '89, either as a member or employed for specific purposes, what did you mean by "or employed for specific purposes" when answering that question?