Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: No I don't say you were near her but atthe trial, you were at the trial and there was evidence that shepleaded for her life and that one of your co-accused said he wantedto have intercourse with her and that they dragged her away fromthe car to behind a house and when she returned she was againassaulted and at one stage her eyes were stabbed and at a latterstage her breast was cut off.

MR SEGOPA: No that evidence was not true, it was givenby people who were bought to say so.  I even want to believe thatthose people were not there when this incident occurred.

UNKNOWN: Was there any medical evidence at the trial,a doctor giving evidence?

MR SEGOPA: Yes there was.

UNKNOWN: Did he give evidence about the injuriessustained by the people?

MR SEGOPA: Yes this doctor explained that they had beenstabbed with knives and that they were hit by sjamboks.

UNKNOWN: Weren't you on a truck with accused 2 and3 following this car?

MR SEGOPA: When this car, this other car arrived, thesepeople had already been killed and this car also had some peoplein it.

UNKNOWN: So you were not on the truck followingthe people?

MR SEGOPA: No.

UNKNOWN: But you heard the evidence at the trialthat they said you followed the people and you jumped from a truckwith other people?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I heard that but it wasn't true becausepeople who were giving evidence they were lying.  They were nottelling the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you give evidence to contradict this?

MR SEGOPA: No they never gave me a chance to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions in re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman justtwo aspects.  You have just been asked about or told about injuries,very serious injuries that the woman who was killed sustained,her breasts being hacked and so on, and allegations that a personor submissions that a person, evidence was led to the effect thatsomebody took her behind a car and wanted to have sexual relationswith her.  Now at the time when this incident was taking placecan you give us an indication of how many people were present,approximately?

MR SEGOPA: The people who were there were about 500 ormore than that.  There were many people around there.

UNKNOWN: You had indicated to the Court that you hadnever gone to school, can you count?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I didn't go to school but I can countand I can also read Sotho.

UNKNOWN: If you look at the people in this hall doyou say the people who were present on that day were they morethan the number of people in the hall today or less?

MR SEGOPA: The people in the hall are less than thosewho were present when this incident occurred.

UNKNOWN: You were also asked about counsel for thecommittee about your membership of the SDU's and you indicatedthat you were a marshall, what was the, according to your knowledge,the work that marshalls had to do in the area where you lived,according to your knowledge?

MR SEGOPA: I was not a marshall, I was a member.  Themarshalls they used to safeguard the halls when there were meetings.

UNKNOWN: In your neighbourhood what would they dothe marshalls?

MR SEGOPA: They would move around the township patrollingand ensuring that no people are being attacked.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Very well you are excused.  You can go down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I am going to need a little bitof guidance here.  My intention is to call a witness on behalfof Mr Segopa but this witness was also an applicant and I intendto withdraw his application and remove it from the roll.  I don'tknow whether I should withdraw the application before and thencall him as a witness.  In other words I don't want to close theapplication for Mr Segopa at this stage but I still have to withdrawthe applicant.  Which one to do first, that's the direction Ineed?

UNKNOWN: Did the other applicant instruct you towithdraw his application?

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir.  Sorry do you understand the differencebetween removing it from the roll and withdrawing it, becausethere's a difference?  If we withdraw the application it meansthat he can never be set down he will have to re-apply.  Mr ChairmanI would like to remove, my instructions are to have that applicationremoved from the roll, they are specific about that.

JUDGE WILSON: Is the application properly before us havingregard to the Act?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I don't believe the applicationis properly before this Committee in terms of the Act.  That wouldbe then my request Mr Chairman to have it removed from the roll.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the number of that case?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members of the court meetingthe application referred to by my learned friend is that one ofMokabe(?) no.G.  It will not have our case number as I had indicatedin chambers that this is the application which was delivered tome at the hotel this week.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I just want to indicate thatthere will come a stage when I will just ask for a short recessin order that I must make certain intimations to you regardingthe problem I am having with Mr Dhlamini before I finally act. But for purposes of now I then wish to call Mr Mokabe to giveevidence to the committee in the application of Segopa, and Iwould then request he be called.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not giving evidence on his own behalf?

UNKNOWN: He's not giving evidence on his own behalfSir.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well you may call him.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Sir.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Mokabe I am going to askyou questions in Sesotho but I would like you to be brief in youranswers and in trying to do so I will indicate to you what evidenceI would like you to give. The person who has made his application,that is Segopa was he the co-accused with you in this case wherehe was found guilty, is that true?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes that's true.

UNKNOWN: You were also found guilty in this case?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now I am not going to ask you questions aboutwhether you were there on the date of this incident or not.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I want your evidence to show that, or toshow how the political climate at Kaotlahong by that time, doyou understand that?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Before giving such evidence I want you totell us whether you were relating yourself to a certain politicalorganisation, if so you must tell us what organisation is thatorganisation and what was your position in that organisation. You may continue Sir. Let me start here.  Were you staying atKaotlahong by that time?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were you in any political organisation?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes the ANC.

UNKNOWN: What was your position in this ANC organisation?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: I was a marshall.

UNKNOWN: Can you repeat?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: I was a marshall.

UNKNOWN: Were you a marshall?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: When this happened there at Kaotlahong whowas the ANC chairman by then?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: It was Comrade Vex Mayekiso.

UNKNOWN: Do you know Mr Minong?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What was Mr Minong's position in the ANCKaotlahong branch?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: He was the secretary to Mr Vex Mayekiso.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Now this incident happened ofwhich we heard the evidence, and we know about it all.  Now Iwould like you to shortly tell us what was the marshalls' functionduring those days when this incident happened, what was theirfunction?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: As I have already explained that my role inthe ANC was as a marshall. Our function or our duty there at Kaotlahongin Odendaalsrus which is where I stay and where my parents staywho used to monitor the situation and peace when we had marchesas the Kaotlahong.  That is when we were marching to the officesof our leaders with the objectives of telling them our complaintsas the Odendaalsrus residents.