Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-24

ADV THABETHE: Can I proceed Mr Chair?

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

ADV THABETHE: Mr Mthembu represents the applicants and he will call upon Mr Leeuw, the applicant.

MR MTHEMBU: I confirm that Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: Are we now dealing with application no. 5175/97, Leeuw?

ADV THABETHE: Correct.

HENDRIK LEEUW: (sworn states)

ADV THABETHE: At this point I would hand over to Mr Mthembu to lead evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: Before starting could you kindly advise us what page, where would we find this application of the bundle of documents on the index?

ADV THABETHE: It's the Thursday bundle, Section A.

ADV DE JAGER: Page?

ADV THABETHE: Page 8.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I suggest in future where we are going to have lists prepared and indexes as in this case that it would be convenient to have the applications in the same order as the names appear on the list on the index.

ADV THABETHE: Point taken.

JUDGE WILSON: Right.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Leeuw is it correct that you have applied for amnesty in respect of certain offences?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it is so, Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Could you tell this Committee which offences are those?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It is for murder and robbery.

MR MTHEMBU: Can I proceed Mr Chair?  Mr Leeuw at the time of the commission of these offences were you a member or affiliated to any political organisation?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I was a member of PAC of Azania.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mthembu, before going over to the - robbery of what, where, when, who did he rob, who did he murder and what was the dates so that we could then get all the particulars that we need.

MR MTHEMBU: Point taken Sir.  Mr Leeuw would you explain to this Committee for which murder and robbery were you convicted for and for which you are now applying for amnesty?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It is for the murder committed to Mr R J J Fourie.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it correct that you are charged with the murder of Mr R J J Fourie  who was a farmer at Verkeerdevlei and his farm was called the Stormberg Farm.

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I was charged for that.

MR MTHEMBU: And is it further correct that you, and your co-accused in this matter, you murdered and thereafter robbed the late Mr Fourie as well as a female person who was in the company of the late Mr Fourie?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, our intention was not to rob.  Mr Fourie was against the liberation of Africans.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir I will come to the motive.  My question now is, is it correct that you murdered the said Mr (late) Fourie and a female person who was in his company and that
you robbed them both of certain articles.

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes we murdered Mr Fourie.  We did this under the PAC operation which was heeded by Sabelo Palma(?) ...(intervention)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw sorry to interrupt you.  Please answer my questions.  I will ask you for the details when the need be, please Sir.  Now can you tell this Committee what happened during the murder of Mr Fourie?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We murdered Mr Fourie and we searched his house and took whatever was necessary.  We took his car so that we should be able to assist the organisation.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it correct that you and your co-accused planned this incident and that you were actually in Verkeerdevlei two days before this incident to conduct reconnaissance at that farm which is called Stormberg Farm?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes we did go there, Stormberg.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that you and your co-accused in fact waylaid Mr Fourie at the gate leading to his farm and that you closed the gate so that he could climb out of his vehicle to close the said gate, then at that moment you would attack him?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes we did that exactly.  We closed the gate so that we should be able to catch him.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that indeed Mr Fourie alighted from his vehicle and whilst he was busy opening the gate and when he turned around to approach his vehicle that you shot him once in the chest?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just a minute I don't think that's how we should lead evidence.  I think ask him to tell us what
happened.

MR MTHEMBU: Would you then proceed to tell this Committee what happened.

HENDRIK LEEUW: We arrived on that farm on the 12th of February.  When that car passed, going towards the direction of the town we closed the gate so that when they came back we should be able to catch them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, and then what happened?  Go on to tell us what happened, please.

HENDRIK LEEUW: When he came back we were still waiting by the gate, it was still closed.  We closed it on purpose so they should be able to attack him when he tries to open the gate.  And when he alighted the vehicle I attacked him.  When he fell down I grabbed this woman who tried to get out of the car and Daniel Magoda and Mishek May removed Mr Fourie and put him in the bush. We took this White woman and put her in the car and we went into the house.  We took the same keys that were in the car and opened the house.  When we got inside we put this White woman on a chair. Mishek May and Daniel Magoda and Petrus Nkgwedi, we clapped this White woman and she was being watched by Mishek May.  My main intention was to get the keys to the safe because we were looking for the firearms that were kept in the safe.  We needed those firearms in order to operate for the PAC struggle.  We found the old coins in the safe and we took that with us.  ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, did you find any firearms?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes we did.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Two.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.

HENDRIK LEEUW: It's a 3.8 firearm and a small one called Baby Brown.  When I came back to check Daniel Magoda and Mishek May I found that this woman was no longer on the chair and I realised that she was in the bedroom.  And she had a loudspeaker and I told the gentlemen that the policemen must not find us there.  Then I dismantled the loudspeaker.  We went into the car and we drove off to Botshabelo.  We threw out the loudspeaker and the telephone.  We took these things and kept them in separate places so that the police shouldn't find them in one place.  Mishek May left with the car and we managed to hide away these things.

JUDGE WILSON: What things?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I am talking about the coins that we found in the house, and the clothing, and there were also some groceries in the car because it seems that they had just come from doing groceries in town.  Those are the things that we took.  And we took all these things to Botshabelo.  Mishek May left with the car and he went with it to the D Section and we were arrested after two days.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You said when Mr Fourie came out of the car you attacked him, what do you mean thereby?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I shot him.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many times?

HENDRIK LEEUW: With one bullet.

JUDGE MGOEPE: With whose gun?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It's a .38 special gun.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Whose gun was it?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It was Mr Showa's (?) gun, after the instruction that he gave us.

JUDGE MGOEPE: By the way who was this Mr Showa?

HENDRIK LEEUW: He was an APLA Commander.

JUDGE WILSON: We've heard mention of a woman who was accompanying Mr Fourie, I am not asking the applicant, I am asking the evidence leader, do we know who this person is?

ADV THABETHE: No, we don't have a record of that.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't she mentioned at the trial?

ADV DE JAGER: Was the name Mrs May?  Is that correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Has she been given notice of this hearing?

ADV THABETHE: No she hasn't.

JUDGE WILSON: Why not?  She was clearly a victim wasn't she?  Someone who could give very relevant information as to precisely what was stolen from the house.  It's extremely important when one is trying to ascertain what the purpose of an act is, whether there was personal gain.