Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: But if I followed you what confuses me is that you mentioned the date, the 15th of January, that's when you knew about the target, would I be correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And earlier when I (...end of tape) to you early in January, do you recall that?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you look at the 15th of January, that is not early January, it's the middle of January.  Would I be mistaken about that?

MR LEBEA: You are not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: So help me out, now at least we can put the date about knowledge of the target, that it is the 15th of January, how long after you knew of the target were you given this weaponry?

MR LEBEA: May you repeat your question please?

CHAIRPERSON: I say you knew about the target on the 15th of January from Themba Ncapai, I take it, would I be right?  Because he's the person who identified the target.

MR LEBEA: Yes, on the 15th we knew what the target would be.

CHAIRPERSON: And upon a question I asked you which took place first, is it the identification of the target or the handing over of the weaponry, your response thereto was that you knew about the target and the delivery of the weaponry was subsequent to that.  You recall your response?

MR LEBEA: I recall that response.

CHAIRPERSON: No my question is because we have identified at least a date when we knew the target that the van Tonders were the target of your attack, after you had been told on the 15th of January that you should attack the van Tonder's farm and repossess, when thereafter was the weaponry delivered to you?

MR LEBEA: We were handed the weaponry a week afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: So we are looking closer to the 22nd of January, would I be correct?  Nor precisely just the 22nd but closer to that date?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I'm merely doing arithmetic.  15 plus 7 is 22 to me.

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When he handed you the weaponry, where were the other comrades, that is members of your unit, the other three, Donosi, King Lebea, Samuel Mokweti, where were they when you were handed the weaponry?

MR LEBEA: When we were handed over the weaponry, they were present and those who were present were King, Donosi joined later together with Samuel Mokweti.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Donosi and Samuel Mokweti joined later, what do you mean, because my question was when you were handed the weaponry where were they?  When you say they joined later, what do you mean by that?

MR LEBEA: When the weaponry arrived at me, they were not present, they arrived after the weaponry was delivered.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Donosi and Samuel Mokweti?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: King Lebea, where was he?

MR LEBEA: When the weaponry arrived and it was myself and King present, Donosi and Samuel Mokweti arrived later.

CHAIRPERSON: After delivery, they did not see Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: They saw Themba Ncapai, when they arrived he was still there and they would normally arrive at round about 6, 7 or 8 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: You're referring to Donosi and Samuel Mokweti?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A question was asked early in the proceedings that - or rather let me put it this way.  You response to the question was that the others who belonged to your unit, came to know Themba Ncapai later, you recall saying so?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to find out from you, when you say they met him later, what did you mean by that?

MR LEBEA: What I was explaining is that they knew him later, that is when he was coming to offer the crash course.

CHAIRPERSON: They were also in other words trained by him?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then at least we know of two occasions now that is when they received the crash course from Themba Ncapai and upon the day he delivered weapons, they met Themba again. Would I be correct?  I say firstly we know from you that you say the first time they met Themba Ncapai is when he gave them the crash course in assembling, dismantling AK47's, 9mm, that we know.  Would I be right this far?

MR LEBEA: You are right.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I say the second occasion is when the weaponry was delivered round about the 22nd of January  they met him again.

MR LEBEA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Hence I say assist me - listen, hence I say assist me because I asked you specifically when Themba Ncapai delivered the weaponry, where were the other three.  Your response, let me assist you so that we understand each other, you said there was King, Donosi and Samuel came later and they usually come round about 7.  I asked you was Ncapai gone by then, you said no they met him he was around, but he had already delivered the weaponry. Would I be correct or was I following you?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I said King, Donosi and Samuel Mokweti have at least met Themba twice, crash course and when the weaponry was delivered, even though they came after the weaponry was delivered, but they found him there, would I be right?

MR LEBEA: No, Sir, they met with him only a day.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow now.  What do you mean they met him only a day?  I don't follow what you are saying now.  Really I don't, assist me.

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to say is they met him a day when he was coming to offer those crash courses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LEBEA: And at that time I was the person who used to meet regularly with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get to the end of this once and for all.  On the day Themba delivered the weaponry, did Donosi, King and Samuel Mokweti see him, not actually delivering the weapons but on that particular day, that is round about the 22nd of January, did they see him?

MR LEBEA: I do not catch the question.  When he brought the weapons?

CHAIRPERSON: Look Sir, let me assist you.  You say on the 15th of January, that's when you knew about the target.  Do we hear each other correctly that far?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say again a week thereafter and the 22nd take it, it was my suggestion, it did not come from you, when I mentioned the 22nd it's a week after the 15th, Themba Ncapai delivered the weapons, the AK47, the 9mm and the knife or the panga, is that not so?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm saying on this particular day, the week after the identification of the target, when Themba Ncapai was with you handing you over the weaponry, did Donosi, King and Samuel Mokweti see Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: What I'm explaining is that Donosi and Samuel Mokweti saw Themba Ncapai once.  They saw him after a week bringing the weapons.  I'm the person who met with Themba Ncapai.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is simple, I'm not laying any traps.  There are no booby traps here.  What I'm saying, if Themba gave them a crash course for a day, that was well before the 15th of January, wouldn't that be so?  Do you follow what I am trying to say?  Okay let's put it this way. ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I perhaps?  When did you receive this crash course?

MR LEBEA: I received the crash course on the 15th when Themba brought the weaponry,

JUDGE DE JAGER: The same day?  He handed the weapons to you on the same day that you received the crash course, but you had a crash course for three days, not for one day.

MR LEBEA: That's so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why now you try to switch round?

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, were you together on a particular day with Themba Ncapai, where King, Donosi and Samuel Mokweti were present?

MR LEBEA: Yes, there is such a day.

CHAIRPERSON: That is before they received their crash course independently?

MR LEBEA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you all receive the crash course at the same time?  I'm talking about your unit of 4?

MR LEBEA: I got the crash course before and I got another crash course together with them.

CHAIRPERSON: So your crash course was more than three days, would I be right, just from the response you gave?