Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, to date this interview you will see that on the first page, "that the funeral yesterday", it is well-known and it will be shown on another video that the funeral was on the 19th. So please assume that this interview was on the 20th of April 1993.  Now I want to read to you on page 1 of the transcript, I beg your pardon, it is page 2. Page 1 of the Agenda interview.
"Is there a culture of violence developing in the Conservative Party?"
And the answer is:
"No, not at all, Mr Venter, the Conservative Party has never since its inception planned acts of violence.  Actually the planning of the Conservative Party has at its aim to prevent violence in the country by offering a political solution that we would create peace and stability and prosperity in South Africa."
Do you agree or disagree with that policy formulation of the Conservative Party, spoken by Dr Hartzenberg?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You agree with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now and the - on the third page of the transcript
"If one looks at the sort of statements that are made by the leadership of the party, yourself included, these are statements that talk repeatedly about the need for resistance, armed resistance. I have looked through the files, there is a pile of Press cuttings, all to the same, of the same direction.  Now admittedly none of those are direct calls to arms, but it is not an open-ended nature of the sort of threatening talk amounting to tacit approval?
		No, not at all".  
Do you agree with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, no political leader would go on record as stating that he supports violence. I agree with that statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, the question was ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As put by Dr Treurnicht, I agree.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you saying - are you saying that Dr Hartzenberg was lying?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not saying anything of the sort and Mr Bizos knows that. I am saying that no matter what the circumstance, no political party leader would go on record as propagating violence, even if the objective was violence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's us examine that.  Let us examine that, Mr Derby-Lewis.  First of all, the statement on the first page
"No, not at all, Mr Venter ..."
That paragraph deals with the questions of whether there was a policy of violence, and he says for a culture of violence and he says "no".  Then it is put to him -
"Well, you may say no but there are threats of resistance and armed resistance and threatening talk.Does that not mean that the party has a policy of violence".
He says -
"No, not at all."
	You say that you accept that this is what Dr Hartzenberg said, correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The official policy of the party, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  So did - are you now saying that Dr Hartzenberg gave the policy that the CP was giving out, but he was being untruthful to the people of South Africa by saying that there was no culture of violence and that this talk did not mean that the CP was for violence, was just for the benefit of misleading the public?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, it is clear from what Dr Treurnicht says here that he was responding to the statement by Venter which reads as follows
"But is not the open-ended nature of this sort of threatening talk amounting to tacit approval of violence?
		No, no, not at all."

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. Well, is that true or is it untrue?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I fail to understand why Mr Bizos didn't continue on the first page with Dr Treurnicht's words, because there I think he categorises it.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, please, let me ask the questions that I want to ask the way I want to ask them. You have counsel and he can ask you questions the way that may be more suitable to you.  Please answer my questions as I put them to you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can't he answer them the way he wants to answer them, Mr Bizos?  (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Apparently not, Mr Chairman.  (Applause).

GEORGE BIZOS: He can answer them but provided it is an answer, and what I am suggesting is that it is not an answer.  The statements are categorical statements that there was no culture of violence. I want to know whether that is true or untrue. He said that it is true. Now does that mean that what Dr Hartzenberg said in those two passages is incorrect, and was he telling or misleading the public of South Africa, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not at all, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not at all?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right. If you say that he was not misleading them, then the statements can't be true.  A leader cannot both say that there was no culture of violence and you tell us that it is the truth, if you - and yet say that there was a hidden policy.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Dr Hartzenberg says in his second paragraph after the paragraph that Mr Bizos quoted
"The violence is not in the Conservative Party, it is outside the Conservative Party."
So the Conservative Party didn't need to have a policy of violence, it was already there, Mr Chairman.  And I want to remind this Committee that I have testified earlier, and it looks as though I will have to repeat what I said during my testimony, I testified earlier that at a speech held at the finalisation of the CP's mobilisation campaign in Pretoria on the 19th of March, Dr Treurnicht said the following:
"Communism ..."
And this is bundle A3, Mr Chairman, and it is item, page 7, and it states the following ...

CHAIRPERSON: The reference which bundle, you said A3?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: A3, Mr Chairman, it is actually titled by us bundle C and it is to do with CP mobilisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Thank you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, it reads as follows
"Communism in South Africa is alive and well and the mobilisation will oppose the blatant challenge of the ANC, SACP, APLA, through coordinated action and resistance, where necessary, in the interests of our people, our freedom and our country."
He quoted an ANC spokesman as saying the following:
"For Communists even peace is war, negotiations is a site for the struggle. Negotiations is war and of course, war is war."
Then it says further, Mr Chairman -
"Dr Treurnicht's reaction to this statement was as follows:  do the Mandelas, Hanis, Tambos, Ronnie Kasrils and the Ramaphosas think they will be able to carry out their plans without resistance?  If they believe that they can paralyse this country and make it ungovernable, do they think that there is no possibility of a counter-strategy?  We can also say the following: `those who live by the sword must beware that they do not die by the sword'."
	I think it is clear, Mr Chairman, from that statement that Dr Treurnicht wasn't talking about a garden party where everyone was going to sit around and chat and have tea and what-have-you. 
	Mr Chairman, I ask the indulgence of this Committee because I am going to also submit to the Committee - I don't know whether it has already been distributed, another series of clippings, also regarding the whole aspect of CP support for myself as a result of this action. If we can just ask Mr Mpshe to give us a series number for it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: F.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It will be F according to Mr, to my ...

MR PRINSLOO: The last time it was E, Mr Chairman, so I think it will be allocated F.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Bundle F.  And in this bundle, Mr Chairman, and this is page number 11, of the bundle.  Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I can just organise that you receive a copy of that. Would you prefer that before I quote of this let you have the bundle, Mr Chairman, because it is ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try and proceed as fast as we can and let's ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, let's carry on, and let you have it. If somebody can just collect it and distribute it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.