Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR NDLOVU: When we heard the throwing of stones as well as the shooting, I heard one voice shouting, ordering that we lie down.  Indeed we lied down and some of us against the shack.  And the shooting continued, and the throwing of stones did not stop.  And we later on heard this very big explosion which was different from the initial gunshots.  And when I looked around I saw this ball of green fire directed towards the other group.  And this explosion happened again.  I tried to look around to establish where it came from, and it transpired that this explosion came from our group.  And I ultimately identified the person who was shooting from our direction, from our group rather.

MR DRAHT: Who was that?

MR NDLOVU: It was Sithole.

MR DRAHT: Could you see with what was he firing?

MR NDLOVU: Even 'though I could not have seen quite well the type of firearm he was using, yes I could make out that he was shooting.

MR DRAHT: Was it a long or a short firearm, could you see that?

MR NDLOVU: It looked like a rifle because he had his hands placed as I demonstrated.

MR DRAHT: And were you still unarmed at that moment?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I was not armed at that time.

MR DRAHT: Okay, what happened then?

MR NDLOVU: After having identified Sithole, the group that was in front of us started dispersing and retreating.  That is the time when we started moving, and when we started moving from where I was standing, charging forward, there is one person whom I saw lying down.  That is when I realised that yes, this is a war.  And after having walked past ...(intervention)

MR DRAHT: If you say that you were charging, were your group charging towards the ANC group?  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: Okay, and you saw a person lying on the ground?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: And then?

MR NDLOVU: When I walked past the person who was lying down, fortunately I happened to pick up a stick from the ground.  I think it must have been dropped by one of the people who were fleeing.  I took this stick along.  That is when I started arming myself.

MR DRAHT: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, was it a plain stick?  Or was it a bolted stick, or a knopkierrie?

MR NDLOVU: It was not a knopkierrie, it was just a plain stick.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Draht, just before we move on, before it just slips my mind.  You mentioned that you saw Sithole with what you believe was a rifle.  Is that the same Mr Sithole who testified yesterday?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu you can proceed.

MR NDLOVU: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV SIGODI: The interpretation is not coming through.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry Chairperson.

MR NDLOVU: We proceeded on and when I looked ahead I saw two people coming towards our direction, and when they came I would say there were two, or some people who were in front of me, and these people met these two people who were coming towards ourselves, and I saw one of them touching himself on the shoulder.  And the other one who was in his company took off, and the one who was touching his shoulder was hit.  He got injured.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, you say he was hit.  He was hit by what?

MR NDLOVU: He was hit by knopkierries and he fell down, and he was also stabbed with spears.

MR DRAHT: Did you also hit him?

MR NDLOVU: No, I could not reach him.

ADV SIGODI: Was it somebody you knew?

MR NDLOVU: I recognised this person, but later I learnt that it was somebody whom I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?

MR NDLOVU: It was Alfred Madumane.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know who stabbed him with a spear?

MR NDLOVU: No, I could not see.  It was actually a group of people, and this group of people were lifting their spears and sticks and knopkierries at the same time.  I could not make out.

MR DRAHT: You can continue Mr Ndlovu.

MR NDLOVU: We then turned back, and as we were walking down the steep one among our group suggested that we should check out at Skosana's shebeen to make sure whether there isn't somebody there.  And as we were approaching the shebeen two men came out of the shebeen.  One whom I saw quite clearly was carrying something that looked like a briefcase, and this other one fled on seeing us.  And the one who was carrying a briefcase had a bad luck.  He too was beaten up.

MR DRAHT: By whom?

ADV SIGODI: Do you know who he was.

MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know him.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he was beaten up, was, what do you mean?  Was he set upon by your group and assaulted with kerries and sticks?  Just tell us what you mean by saying he was beaten up.

MR NDLOVU: He was beaten up by our group, using sticks and spears.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you partake in that beating up?

MR NDLOVU: No, yes, yes I did partake of the beating.

CHAIRPERSON: That person who was beaten, do you know whether he was killed or not?

MR NDLOVU: My Lord it is very difficult for me to say he could have survived, because he was stabbed as soon as he fell onto the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ndlovu, you say that you also beat him.  How did you beat him?

MR NDLOVU: I used the very same stick that I picked up when we went up the steep?

MR DRAHT: And did you do something else to him also?

MR NDLOVU: When he fell, I also kicked him.

MR DRAHT: Okay, and what happened then?

MR NDLOVU: After that, we went to the sports grounds.  That's where we stood, and it was at the time that we started asking ourselves questions as to what was happening.  And that's when I heard that they saw this group of people attacking them and they too claimed not to know what was happening.  And I at the same time saw Joseph Mkhize, who came with something on his hand, in his hand, and on looking at this carefully I noticed that it was a firearm.  I called him and I wanted to know from him as to, I actually pointed out to him that I was not aware he's armed, and I requested to have a look at his firearm, and he handed it over to me.  I handled it and it was quite heavy, it was the real thing.

MR DRAHT: What kind of, what make of firearm was it?  Did you see that?

MR NDLOVU: When I asked him what kind of firearm it is he said it was a 38.

MR DRAHT: You can continue.

MR NDLOVU: I handled this firearm and I could make out from the weight that it was the real thing.  And I then enquired from him as to whether he fired shots, and he said.  "...there is no way I could not have fired," and I gave back the firearm. And at the same time we did not know what was happening or whether these people were coming back to attack us, and we decided that we could not go back to our houses, we would rather wait at the grounds in case they come back.  And as we were milling around a Hippo came along.

CHAIRPERSON: By a Hippo you mean a police vehicle, not a hippo out of the Jukskei River?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I am referring to the vehicle used by soldiers.  And we saw this army vehicle.  It came and it did not occur to us that we should flee or hide.  And it was agreed that even if the police can come here we would explain to them that we were being attacked.  Yes, the soldiers arrived and they ordered us to lift our hands.  And we were ordered to lie down flat on our stomach, and we lied down on the muddy soil and we were searched.  After searching us they took us along and they went to the very same vehicle to which I referred as Hippo, and it had it's light on, just like this light here, and we were made to sit down.  And as we were sitting down I would, we would, be made to stand up one after another and taken to the Hippo, and there were people in the Hippo.  These people in the Hippo were looking at their heads, and if they shook their heads they would take you to the side, and if they nodded they will take you to another side.  And to those to whom heads were shaken, such people were released.