Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

ADV PRIOR: When did the instruction come to kill school children, white school children on buses?  Was that - let me try and assist you, was that during March when these other attacks took place or was it at a different time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: During March.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  And who gave that instruction?  How did it come about that that was mentioned?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We got the instructions from our commander, Jimmy Jones.

ADV PRIOR: And where was that?  I mean, was that at Butterworth or was that at some other place?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was there at Butterworth, yes.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any discussion around that by yourself or by Mr Mbambo or by TNT or by Kid or anybody of that unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we did was to accept the instructions as they were given to us, we then - before we did, according to the instructions given, we had to plan we were going to execute our instructions.

ADV PRIOR: You indicated in your evidence that when you were asked a question you said that the school children were also the enemy and their parents were supporters of the government of the day, could you maybe just explain that to me, I'm not clear.  On what basis did you say children, school children, were enemy of APLA or of the greater community or the greater black community?  I don't understand that.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The reason for me to talk that way, it is those were the instructions we got from our commander.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any benefit to be obtained by killing children whether psychologically or politically?  Was that discussed within your group?  Or are you able to comment if it wasn't discussed within your group, did you view it in that respect, that there was a political or psychological benefit to be obtained?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we would gain was that people, the owners of the land would regain it.

ADV PRIOR: I want to move on and I want to refer to a portion of the record, a portion of the same submissions made by the APLA high command at page 90 of that bundle of the submissions.  It was a statement made by Brigadier Fitla, and I refer to the middle of the page where the sentence begins
"So that is the political benefit also we are talking about and when we talk about proportionality here, we could have easily gone for much easier targets than the adults.  We could have gone for creches"
...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can you please read a bit slower so that we can be able to interpret because we don't have the bundle.

ADV PRIOR: I beg your pardon.

INTERPRETER: Yes, you can carry on.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there ought to have been copies, may I just enquire from our logistics officer?  I know there are copies at the back next to the photocopy machine.  Mr Chairman, I understand that I have purloined your copy, may I - I'll hand it to you immediately, I don't propose to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll try and read slower
	Brigadier Fitla at that point said:       
"So that is the political benefit also"
The discussion went about there was no distinction in APLA's mind about hard targets and soft targets.  Hard targets being military type installations like police stations and army bases and soft targets being civilians, that was the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Chairman, that's just by way of background.
	That was the context in which Brigadier Fitla then said the following:
"So that is the political benefit also we are talking about and when we talk about proportionality here, we could have easily gone for much easier targets than the adults. We could have gone for creches, we could have gone for institutions for the disabled but we had to look at proportionality.  Some of the things that we could also politically justify and defend.  If we had gone for children in a nursery school we would not be in a position to stand on this platform today and proudly speak of those activities, so therefore we looked at our operation at two levels as well.  First, the political benefits that would be derived by those activities in terms of also the support that both APLA and the PAC would enjoy"
And I end the quotation. 
	I want to suggest to you that in the light of what Brigadier Fitla said, that it was not APLA policy to attack school children as you have mentioned here today and that if you say it was then you belonged to a different group than APLA, as we heard from Brigadier Mofokeng and Brigadier Fitla in October in Cape Town last year.  Would you like to comment on that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: In all what you have said there, what I must tell you is that I only followed orders as a soldier.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, does it not possibly suggest perhaps that the applicant belongs to a different group withing APLA?

ADV PRIOR: Well, that's what is being suggested, certainly a group that did not regard itself bound by political directives of the PAC, which was the controlling force in the organisation.  Yes, I certainly make that suggestion and I will ask the Committee to have regard to that at a later stage.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, just for a moment again.
	Mr Ncamazana, do you know this Brigadier Fitla Mr Prior is referring to here?  Have you heard of him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I heard about him.

ADV PRIOR: May I follow ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: It's actually not quite a follow-up, it's just within the broad context but I think I will slip it in.
	It's just to again to finish off this discussion about policy and school children.  If you look at the other side of the same coin, did you discuss the killing of black school children, black children?  You know if you are saying these discussions, I didn't really make a contribution to white school children particularly being killed, what did you talk about in relation to black people being killed, black school children being killed?  That might put a context to what you understood as a cadre.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I'd please like the question to be repeated.

MS GCABASHE: I'm just talking about the context now of PAC policy and the fact that white school children would certainly have been regarded as a soft target, in fact as a "none target" but to understand where you the individual, where you are coming from, did you talk about black children being killed?  I'm just trying to understand your own - how you felt about your organisation and what you were doing, what you sought to protect.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I thought about it because an example in Transkei Northcrest had happened.

MS GCABASHE: Can you just elaborate on that and give us a date in relation to your application?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Are we talking about what happened in Northcrest?  Do you want an explanation about that?

MS GCABASHE: Yes, just to understand where you the individual, where you are coming from.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot tell you about the date but this happened last year.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I don't quite follow, what happened at Northcrest?  What was the situation there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is where children were attacked, small children.

ADV PRIOR: Was this last year, 1997?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I think it was in 1993.

ADV PRIOR: Were black children attacked and killed?  Are you referring to an incident where black children were attacked and killed?

MR LAX: Perhaps I could help here.  He's referring to
famous incident or a notorious incident, let's put it that way, in which the SADF attacked the house, I think it was the Leruma family in Umtata and there were some young students in that house who were killed.

ADV PRIOR: Is that correct, are you referring to that incident?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And was it as a result of that attack by the SADF on that house where those children were killed that the decision or the instruction came to then also kill white children?