Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-20

MARTINUS RAS: Yes Chairperson, as we studied our planning, it would have taken place after he had crossed the border and reached the other side, because he would have had to drive reasonably slowly and there was quite a lot of shrubbery on the side of the road.

MR JANSEN: Let me put it to you this way, whether your actions boil down to a conspiracy or an attempt, is for you a question of argument?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Jansen.  Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions that you would like to ask the witness?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, do you have any questions to ask?

MR LAMEY: Just one question Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Ras, you have not mentioned it specifically but on page 23 of your application, you refer to the fact that there was some information that the Head of DCC, Anton Nieuwoudt, became involved in the planning for the coup?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: This was before the weapons or before the coup was actually executed?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: I would just like to place it on record that Mr Nortje agrees that perhaps not in these words, however this was what it boiled down to what you said, is that correct?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR HATTINGH: Yes thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Ras, just a few aspects.  Mr De Kock expected of his members, which included you, to use their own initiative?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: If you received information regarding the activities of so-called terrorists, then it would be your task in particular to receive orders from him, and to investigate that information and so determine whether not it was accurate?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And just by way of example, if you had received information about a place where the so-called terrorists were in a neighbouring State, were residing, you would try to confirm this?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And in the process you also investigated the possibility that action could be taken against such persons who were being accommodated in such houses?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And then you would make your proposals to Mr De Kock?

MARTINUS RAS: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: And it happened upon many occasions?

MARTINUS RAS: There were cases for which I am also applying for amnesty, where this did indeed take place.

MR HATTINGH: But there were also incidents where you conducted such investigations and reported to him, but no action emanated from this?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: So it was your task to collect information with the prospect of possible action in the future?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you heard Mr De Kock's evidence that it was also the position with regard to this investigation which you conducted regarding Mr Holomisa with the prospect of assassinating him in future.  You investigated it, it was information which you brought in, but he never asked you for a progress report, or came back to you and asked you to execute the plan which you had investigated?

MARTINUS RAS: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hatting.  Mr Muller, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?

MR MULLER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  During your discussion with Mr Nortje, you didn't see Mr Nieuwoudt there, is that correct?

MARTINUS RAS: No.

MR MULLER: And if I could just refer you to the following paragraph which refers to the time that you were listening to the radio, why did you ask Mr De Kock that specific question?

MARTINUS RAS: Mr De Kock asked me on a certain day what I thought about a coup in Transkei upon which I said that I would eliminate Mr Holomisa with the idea of creating a split and when I heard that the coup had been executed, and that Mr Holomisa had not been taken out, it was very strange to me, and that is why I asked him and asked why he had not been taken out.

MR MULLER: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman.  Now about the coup against Transkei, what role is it that you played?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, I didn't play any role there.

MR MAPOMA: You were not even part of the planning for that coup?

MARTINUS RAS: I had no knowledge of it, until I arrived in East London, but before that, I had no knowledge that a coup was being planned for Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: How did you happen to know that Anton Nieuwoudt was part of the plan?

MARTINUS RAS: Mr Nortje mentioned this to me as well.  I didn't see him there, I didn't speak to him, no further information was given by me about this.

MR MAPOMA: Why do you apply for amnesty for the coup against Transkei when you didn't play any role in that?

MARTINUS RAS: I will leave that to the Committee to decide.  I just wanted to make a full disclosure of everything from the beginning, because if I had not applied, I may be prosecuted later.  I knew that weapons were provided for the Transkei coup and I did not disclose this.

MR MAPOMA: Do I understand your evidence to say that your personal view was that for a coup to be successful in Transkei, they have to get rid of Holomisa first before they can proceed with the coup?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, just to get rid of him or to eliminate him, would not have worked because there had to be support of other groups.  We needed to have two groups that could rise up in opposition against each other.  It could have been a split in the government, if he had been eliminated, and that would only have encouraged a coup, but I am not saying that that is the only way it would have worked.

MR MAPOMA: The way it was done, were you in favour of the way in which it was done?

MARTINUS RAS: I would have done it another way.

MR MAPOMA: Were you actually in favour of the coup against Holomisa when you were in East London?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, Mr Holomisa at that stage, was openly critical against the South African government, and he personally permitted the ANC to find accommodation in the Transkei, he did not allow us to operate against the ANC members and PAC members in the Transkei, and in that regard, I would say yes, I was in favour of a government in Transkei that would have acted against the ANC at that stage.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Do you have any re-examination, Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: None, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

ADV SANDI: Just one question Mr Chairman.  Mr Ras, do you know if there was a practise amongst Vlakplaas members to give each other some donations after participating in an operation?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, no, I didn't know.  I don't know of any case where somebody was rewarded or received financial remuneration for participation in any act, except for when Mr De Kock mentioned yesterday that former PAC or ANC members would be rewarded for successful identification of other PAC or ANC members, that would be a reward for work which was performed, and that would be regarded as a bonus which would be similar to cases in the Investigations Branch.

ADV SANDI: The evidence that was given by Colonel De Kock and Mr Nortje yesterday, was that evidence news to you, did you come across that before?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, it was news to me, I didn't know that people had received plots, or had been rewarded in such way.