Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR CHASKALSON: Did you change any of the structures that existed at RRL prior to your joining the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: Perhaps you have now said two things in one.  I did not change the structures before coming to the company but the existing structures when I arrived there, I could change and that is what I did, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us what sort of changes you made?

MR SWANEPOEL: The Laboratory Services and the Research and Development I brought together as a unit and the Personnel and Administration as well and I kept Finance separate.

MR CHASKALSON: You earlier gave us your understanding of the role of the company in the Chemical and Biological Warfare programme at the time you were recruited, did this understanding change over time?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you know any of the scientists or researches at RRL prior to joining the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Had you met any of the researchers of scientists at RRL prior to joining the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: Only with my introduction.  There was an occasion where I was introduced to them a few weeks before I arrived, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: And prior to that occasion which was just shortly before you took over, you had never met them?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Was Doctor Basson actively involved in the projects that were undertaken an RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: I think so, yes, because the reporting of all the results and the instructions came from his side as being the one to deal with the Defence Force contracts at RRL.

MR CHASKALSON: Are you telling us, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that a project that would have come from the SADF who were for all intents and purposes the owner of this company, to RRL would be directed from Doctor Basson - or maybe you should just tell us, how was that directed into the project?  Would it go from Doctor Basson to you or would it go from Doctor Basson to Doctor Immelman or from Doctor Basson to some other member of the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: To reply to your question directly, it would have come directly from Doctor Basson after discussion with Doctor Immelman.

MR CHASKALSON: So you would have no knowledge whatsoever of what contracts were being given to the company by the SADF?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Didn't this make planning very difficult?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, because the budgets and the planning came from the various departments to me and we only did the planning on their predictions and their budgets.
 I must also draw the parallel between the commercial contracts that we dealt with.  I never saw any of them or dealt with any of them either.  It came into the company, a product was delivered and it left the company.
 I'm sure that at the highest level of government, the President does not have such a good financial knowledge but he has his supporters or supporting team that advises him.  I think that in the level of each company at that level, that it works in exactly the same way.

MR CHASKALSON: So your understanding of your role in this programme from commencement and essentially throughout your duration is that you were there to make certain that the people worked and that the systems worked.  What actually happened would have nothing to do with you and you were not aware of it?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you ever informed of any research and/or synthesis projects which took place at the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Not on one single occasion?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, not on a reporting basis, no.  I can just qualify that in management meetings where there were problems with payments and clients I did hear the nature of the projects ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: But that would have been in relation to what has been referred to as the: "soft projects", those projects which were of a truly commercial nature.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, the commercial projects.

MR CHASKALSON: So in terms of the SADF projects no knowledge whatsoever?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's correct.

MR CHASKALSON: So how can you make a statement that this is a defensive facility?

MR SWANEPOEL: I did not make the statement, I explained to you that that is what I learnt about the thing before I went.  You asked specifically what did I know about that and what was told to me and what was the objective.

MR CHASKALSON: Well let me ask you your opinion, what is your opinion of the facility?

MR SWANEPOEL: Precisely that.

MR CHASKALSON: What role did the Surgeon-General play in the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: None.

MR CHASKALSON: Was any reporting made to the Surgeon-General?

MR SWANEPOEL: The Surgeon-General was a member of the CCC's and the Financial Committee etc.

MR CHASKALSON: Was any reporting on the nature of projects undertaken at the facility ever made to the Surgeon-General?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not that I have any knowledge of, no.  I cannot say yes or no, I do not know.

MR CHASKALSON: We've talked about commercial and SADF projects, was there some form of distinction made between these two projects in the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: Which two projects are you referring to?

MR CHASKALSON: Projects of a commercial nature, projects which have come from, on a SADF request from Doctor Basson?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, there was a clear distinction.  There weren't only the two types of projects, there were three types and they were registered separately.  There were the military projects which we know about already, there were the commercial projects which we also know of and then there were projects which we called in-house projects.  In other words, where we had the scientists in a closed community, who could not speak out in terms of their research.  We gave them the opportunity to do research further and to be able to speak on that at congresses and so forth.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you explain how each of those three separate projects would be handled?

MR SWANEPOEL: All treated in the same way.

MR CHASKALSON: And how would that have been?

MR SWANEPOEL: That there was a Project Application, Project Approval, Project Management and the course of the project and Project Results and post components and time components were placed on this.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you take us through those components again slowly and tell us who would be responsible for each component.  I presume the request would come from an individual or maybe - I'd rather you told us how it worked properly.

MR SWANEPOEL: There were various ways in which such a project could be initiated.  Firstly, if it was an in-house project it came from the researchers themselves who requested to do research into a specific direction.  It was commercial then it would come from or arise from a need or a request from a client who would ask whether we could do specific research for him.  These things were dealt with by Doctor Andre Immelman. ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: Can I just stop you there for a moment please.  Doctor Immelman would be approached from an outside company for a commercial project?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.  Many years later we appointed a marketer to deal with this.

MR CHASKALSON: Would you be informed of a commercial contract?

MR SWANEPOEL: I was not informed about this.  The work was done and completed, the funds were obtained and I was informed about the financial aspect, costs and income.

MR CHASKALSON: Let's continue.

MR SWANEPOEL: With regard to the military projects, those projects were also directly referred to Doctor Andre Immelman who dealt with that.

MR CHASKALSON: To your knowledge are all of those projects from Doctor Basson to Doctor Immelman?

MR SWANEPOEL: I do not believe that all came from Doctor Basson, we also had projects from Armscor of a para-military nature but yes, the chemical biological aspects from Doctor Basson, yes.