Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: He ran towards Mathonsi, trying to take the firearm from Mathonsi, but he was afraid at that time.  He was running between me and Mathonsi, trying to disarm Mathonsi at the same time, but I could see that he was afraid, he wasn't sure that he is going to succeed in his mission.

MS THABETE: Can you clarify when you say he was attempting to disarm Mr Mathonsi, what do you mean, what was he doing?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: After the shooting or I will say after I heard the first gunshot and I saw Mathonsi trying to run away, this one tried to follow him, trying to disarm him, but because Mathonsi had not yet fallen down at the time, he ran back.  It looks like he was afraid to disarm him, he ran back towards me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkuna, let me try and get your evidence on this aspect.  You have earlier on testified that as you were busy talking to the person who was repairing your tyre, you then heard a shot and thereafter you looked back and you saw Mathonsi trying to ran away.
	You then saw Mathonsi falling down, I am a little confused with that aspect of your evidence.  Then you proceeded to say you saw the applicant Mr Mononi running towards Mr Mathonsi, the deceased and attempting to dispossess him of his firearm.  Now, at which stage did you see the applicant running towards the deceased and at which stage did you see the applicant attempting to dispossess the deceased of his firearm?
	I am a little confused, maybe if you can assist us in that respect, do you understand what I am requesting of you, a kind of clarification as it were.
	It is not clear to me at which stage you saw Mr Mathonsi running away and at which stage you saw him falling down and at which stage you saw the applicant running towards Mr Mathonsi with a view of dispossessing him of his firearm.

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I will try to explain again.  However, I would like to explain that these things were happening at a fast, quickly.  I said after the first shot, I saw Mathonsi trying to run away.
	The one was armed with a firearm at the time, was moving towards Mathonsi's direction, trying to grab his firearm, but he didn't.  It looked like he was afraid to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that person the applicant, the one who was running after Mathonsi?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes, it is the one before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Mathonsi shot at that time?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes, he was already shot because after seeing him, this man before us, trying to disarm him, it is after then that I saw him falling down, Mathonsi falling down.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you estimate the distance that he could have covered from where you initially had seen him standing behind you and where he ultimately ran to and fell onto the ground?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I will say it is, where he was standing, it was about from where I am, next to the table there, and after he was shot, he tried to run a distance from where I am to the table, opposite me where the lady is sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: He was standing from this table and covered a distance between that table and this table?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: That is my estimation, but it is not really exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: That is about four to five paces.

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Leopeng, five to six, about six paces?  Do you agree Mr Leopeng?  Yes?

MR LEOPENG: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that the applicant or the person that you identified as the applicant, was running after Mr Mathonsi and trying to dispossess him of his firearm.  What in fact was he doing which suggested to you that he was trying to dispossess him of his firearm?  What was the applicant doing as Mr Mathonsi was running away?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: What made me to suspect that he was trying to disarm the deceased was that he was running in such a way like he was trying to grab the firearm from Mathonsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Was his hand outstretched?

INTERPRETER: Sorry, I didn't get the last part.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he was running away in such a way as to try to grab the firearm from Mr Mathonsi, was the applicant's hand outstretched?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: It wasn't stretched, however if someone is trying to grab something, it is easy to suspect or to see that this person is trying to grab something out of the place.

CHAIRPERSON: You in fact suspected that he was trying to do so?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You may proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: I have no further questions Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkuna, I note that you have what looks like a docket.  Is it a docket in respect of the trial that was conducted against Mr Mononi?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of the post mortem conducted on behalf of the deceased, Mr Mathonsi, in your docket?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes, it is present.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we please have a copy thereof?   The post mortem report, I shall proceed with the proceedings herein.  You may do so.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Would you like to have copies?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to have a copy and definitely the Committee would like to have a copy thereof.  Mr Leopeng would probably have to be given a copy, it will clear one aspect of the evidence already given by Mr Mononi which was not clear as to where exactly the deceased was shot at on his body.
	We may however proceed with Mr Nkuna's evidence.  Won't you assist.  Have you been able to locate the post mortem report Ms Thabete?
	Mr Leopeng, I will  now give you an opportunity to put any questions if you have, to Mr Nkuna, now that he has completed his testimony in chief.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chairman, I have some few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not Madam Chairman.

MR LEOPENG: I beg your pardon Madam Chair.  Mr Nkuna, in your evidence in chief, you said after you heard a shot and you saw the deceased trying to run away, you then saw someone standing holding a firearm, is that correct?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: That is correct.

MR LEOPENG: And subject to correction from the panel, you said this is the applicant, the one who was holding the firearm is the applicant before this Committee?

MR LAX: Well Mr Leopeng, there were a number of people who were holding firearms.  Just be specific about which one you are referring to, because in his testimony he refers to somebody pointing a firearm at him, he also refers to someone pointing a firearm at the deceased.
	If you just clear up which person are you referring to, you will get the evidence that you are looking for.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you.  The question that I put to the witness is that is it correct that the someone that he saw pointing the firearm at the, holding a firearm after the shot went off, was the applicant, and he said yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe, not coming to Mr Nkuna's defence, you were not explicit with your question.  Will you please put your question again and try to be explicit, segment it if possible.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Nkuna, you said after you heard a shot and you noticed the deceased trying to run away, there was someone who was standing there, holding a firearm at that time, is that correct?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I don't understand your explanation at this present moment, or your question.

MR LEOPENG: But Mr Nkuna that was the evidence, your evidence in chief?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkuna, your evidence was that.

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I said I saw someone pointing a firearm at Mathonsi and at the same time, two people were next to me, trying to disarm me of my firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: That is precisely what is being put to you by Mr Leopeng, Mr Nkuna.