Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: Did you have a police radio with you when you were at Lugoyso?  At Lugoyso, that is in Willowvale, Jafta's homestead.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The car from Butterworth, police car from Butterworth, was equipped with a radio.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you personally not equipped with a radio?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I didn't have one.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Did you by the way not hear any conversation regarding what was taking place during the operation over the radio, were you not in a position to hear that conversation?  That is were you now not next to any police radio receiver?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What radio are  you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: Any radio.  During that whole episode out at Willowvale near Mr Jaftha's shop.  What Mr Mgidlana's asking you is did you ever hear of anybody speaking over a radio at all?

MR MGIDLANA: In particular you two way police radios?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is the one we had used when we were calling the soldiers for reinforcement.  We contacted the station at willowvale using the radio in the car.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you hear anyone or any persons talking over the radio about the fact that the shop, in fact the whole property, just the property should be destroyed?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: When it's a convenient time Mr Mgidlana, we'll take the lunch adjournment.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes I think, may I ask that we'll just take it now because it will also afford me an opportunity.  I was in the process of wrapping up so it will afford me an opportunity of seeing that there's nothing that I've left behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We will now take the lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you you're still under your former oath?  Mr Mgidlana are there any further questions you wish to put to the applicant?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

MR MGIDLANA: (cont)
Thank you Chairperson.
	The last few questions, Mr Siqhola.  Do you know Ntshikilana who was also one of the detainees?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)  Yes I do know that surname.

MR MGIDLANA: He says you participated in that torture, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Maybe if I can see him and identify him I can be sure.

MR MGIDLANA: There, he is standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntshikilana, could you please come forward so - do you recognise him Mr Siqhola?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I recognise him, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you recall also torturing him?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: And over and above the other matters that I referred to he says that there was another method in terms of which he will be tied with a rope on his legs and then suspended from the roof structure with his head facing down to the ground.  Do you recall that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not do that.

MR MGIDLANA: But was it ever done in your presence?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There was no place on the roof that the rope could be tied so I don't think that happened in my presence.

MR MGIDLANA: He says that whilst he was hanging you'll be eating lunch and after smoking, whilst you were smoking you would burn him and that in actual fact you personally participated in his burning with cigarettes?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We were, in doing our investigation in the security offices, so I don't remember tying anybody and there was no place in that office where somebody could be tied on the roof so I don't remember that happening.

MR MGIDLANA: And he said as a result of all that torture he had his eardrum damaged and pus was coming out of it?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that, maybe he is telling the truth.

MR MGIDLANA: And would you dispute it that he was taken to a doctor almost five days after he had sustained the injuries?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that, I'm not sure about that.

MR MGIDLANA: Could you say five days is so soon as you seem to suggest earlier on that once a person seems to be injured he will be taken to a doctor soon, in fact you said immediately.  Could five days be said to be immediately?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It is not immediately after five days.

MR MGIDLANA: So were you mistaken or were you misleading the Committee in saying that once a person is injured he will be taken to a doctor immediately?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said that I cannot dispute his statement because I'm not aware of that.

MR MGIDLANA: It's funny because he says you were there that's why he's not talking about this event taking place in your absence, he says you were there and you were participating in all these methods of torture?

MR LAX: Just before you continue?  Does you client say that the applicant took him to the doctor?  Because that's what he's saying, he doesn't know that the guy went to the doctor?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Is he saying he does not know that he was taken to a doctor?

MR LAX: Yes, that's what I think is meant to be saying.

MR MGIDLANA: Can that be established from him?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he doesn't dispute it, yes.

MR LAX: He says he doesn't dispute it, he doesn't know whether he went to the doctor or not.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact my instructions were that he was there when he was taken to a doctor, he was present as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that Mr Siqhola?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was not there when he was taken to a doctor.

MR MGIDLANA: The further instruction that I got is that when you say this canvas bag will not have water you are not telling the truth because they say it would have quite a lot of water and what was suffocating one would actually be the fact that one couldn't breathe because water would be getting into his nose and all that.

MR DUKADA: No, no, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he said that, it wasn't my understanding.  My understanding was that the canvas bag treatment water played an important part in the whole part of it, but ask him.

MR LAX: Sorry Chair, that was my initial understanding of it.  This morning he did clarify and say - especially when the questions about drowning were put to him, he did clarify and say there wasn't so much water in the bag because mostly to prevent the person from breathing, in other words to suffocate him because wet canvas doesn't allow air through.  Can you clarify that for us please?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes there would be water at the bottom of the bag so that when a person was breathing the water would come up and the person will not be able to breathe.  If the bag would be full the head of the person would not be able to go in and the water would sink down.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact Nyoka says, I talked to him over lunch, he says what prevented him from breathing and what would cause him to be unconscious would be the fact that his head would be exactly under water, inside the water, the level of the water and not over and above the level of the water.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That bag was the same size as the head of a person.  If you fill it with the water and put somebodies head the water would come out, that is why we would put water at the bottom so that we would put somebodies head to reach the level of the water.

MR MGIDLANA: Again coming back to Ntshikilane, he says to the extend of this suspension from the roof structure was that he lost consciousness and he relieved himself, that's when you then took him down?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not see him hanging down.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you see him relieving himself as he was hanging?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not even see him hanging down.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know anyone by the name of Solly Talakumeni who was a detainee?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No it's the first time I hear that surname.