Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I would say it was a nature and tradition that people who were not involved, should by all means be avoided, and this did not happen all the time.
	It happened under certain circumstances, that they too got hurt, even though they were not targeted.

MR MOLOI: Just on the following page, on 247, you ordered the killing of people that according to your own evidence if I understand it properly, were innocent because only one of the group of 20 to 50 referred to you as a Glover?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.  I tried to explain that this word is derogatory if you direct it to a certain member of Inkatha.  Therefore you wouldn't expect that a person who says this in the presence of a crowd, the ones that he or she is with, are not in concept or do not agree with him.  It is assume that because he says it in a particular group, they all agree with what he is saying.
	If they don't get hurt, it is not assumed that is just because it is just one person who said the remark.  I nevertheless agree that it is possible that innocent people were hurt in the process.

MR MOLOI: What strikes me also going through the affidavit, you confirmed, is that Khuzwayo was a business man according to your affidavit, was he not?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, he was.

MR MOLOI: And so was Mrs Tsabalala?  She was a business woman, was she not?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR MOLOI: And I also gathered Yamile was also a business person?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOLOI: In the same vicinity, Claremont?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR MOLOI: Did Yamile ever order you to eliminate any other person who is not a business person?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It is difficult to give a response to that question, because there were a lot of people that Yamile wanted eliminated at Claremont.
	It will be difficult for me to say whether all were business men or whether some were not.

MR MOLOI: But the priority instruction you had, was to eliminate Khuzwayo in the first instance, and then Mrs Tsabalala, Yamile's business counterparts?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I would agree.  Let me just explain this.  At the time that we were at Claremont, Yamile did not complain only about Zazi Khuzwayo and Mrs Tsabalala.
	There were other people that I cannot remember, like Pierre and Mkhize, who were also business men, who were troublesome to him.   I cannot really remember who the others were, but there were quite a few.

MR MOLOI: You have already stated that Yamile was in fact a member of Parliament of KwaZulu government?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOLOI: Was it conceivable or is it conceivable that he used the political clout he had, to eliminate business opposition and not so much to achieve any political end?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wouldn't disagree with that, but as far as I knew him, as a member of a Parliament of the KwaZulu government, with IFP members only and also him being the Chairman of the Branch of the IFP in the area, he could have done both - advancing the cause for Claremont to fall under KwaZulu government and also wanting to eliminate some business people in the area.

MR MOLOI: You and your team, would just act upon a target being pointed out to you by the likes of Yamile in an area without really verifying whether or not there is any political link between the person targeted and the act you were called upon to commit?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say that if I am told by a person like M.Z. Khumalo without Yamile being close to me and M.Z. Khumalo being very close to the IFP President, him telling me to gather my forces and go to Claremont because Yamile is under attack, it occurred to me that Yamile must indeed be in trouble at Claremont.

MR MOLOI: That would be the case even if in essence, the only aim sought to be achieved, is to eliminate a business opponent?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He put it to me as a person who wanted to regain the Claremont that was slowly moving out of IFP control, and the Claremont that was refusing to fall under the KwaZulu government.

MR MOLOI: The point which I am trying to make is you are now to act to achieve a political end, you have not investigated whether or not there is any political mileage you are going to gain out of your conduct.  How then after acting, would you say it was for a political objective?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say that as a Political Commissar of this group that was trained by Inkatha, that for me convinced me that what I was doing, would benefit the organisation.

MR MOLOI: Simply because the order comes from the political leadership?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR MOLOI: I thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata, do you have any questions?

MR MOTATA: Just a few Chairman.   Mr Luthuli, you responded to my colleague here that you were appraised at Caprivi that you were not to attack innocent people, did I hear you correctly?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTATA: And upon your return, this was not told to you from Caprivi in other words?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR MOTATA: Wouldn't you say when you were recruited by the IFP to be trained at Caprivi strip, as IFP members, that what you were told there was policy of the IFP, namely that  avoid innocent people but attack those who were in direct opposition with the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say that was part of the training, but in reality when we returned, that didn't happen because the organisation that had initially taken us for training in Caprivi, did not reprimand us when innocent people were killed, but encouraged that innocent people should also be killed.

MR MOTATA: Let's take you as an example Mr Luthuli, you had a taste of both organisations, that you were first trained by the ANC, you became a member of the MK and subsequently you were recruited by the IFP to be trained.  Would I be wrong to say that when you are trained, you are actually inbibed with the policy of the organisation you are involved in at that stage?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR MOTATA: Now, let's return to areas like for instance Claremont where Yamile was.  You wouldn't say with absolute certainty that for instance because the majority appeared to be UDF, therefore everybody was against Yamile, would you say that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I wouldn't.

MR MOTATA: So, did I understand you correctly then when you said the presence of Yamile even though he was a fierce person and feared by everybody, had to be felt within Claremont area, then people had to be coerced if you are not following Yamile in other words, you would leave or be killed if you don't leave Claremont?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTATA: Part of policy?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTATA: Let us look at this derogatory remark.  It was within your means to stop and ask the 20 to 50 people or so that who made that remark which made you angry, was it not within your means?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I could.

MR MOTATA: Because of this idea that Claremont is infested with UDF people, you did not deem it fit to enquire out of the people who were pedestrians who made this remark, but you ordered your two men to attack?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOTATA: When you testified at the Goldstone Commission, were you by that stage disgruntled with the IFP policy?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MR MOTATA: You still regarded yourself as a staunch member?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.