Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MR RICHARD: Now was he a supporter or member of any particular political party?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: He was one of the supporters because I used to see him in the meetings and every time when the ANC Youth League was having meetings he was there, one of the people present.

MR RICHARD: So was he an active supporter who assisted the ANC in holding their meetings and doing what they wanted to do, or did he just go to meetings every now and then?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: What I know is that he would attend the meetings.  When they ask all the members of the Youth League to come and converge there, he was always present.

MR RICHARD: And for how long had he been an active supporter of the ANC?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I think from 1993, because I followed the ANC since 1986.

MR RICHARD: I didn't hear your answer.  From when was Moses an active supporter of the ANC?  I'm sorry, I missed your answer.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: The first time I saw him in the ANC activities was from 1993, because he died in 1993.

MR RICHARD: And before he died, how often had you seen him at ANC activities?  We know he died in ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, I don't think this is really in dispute.

MR RICHARD: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is in dispute, then it can be picked up in cross-examination, but it's not in respect of the evidence of Michael.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	So you had been a member since 1986, or a supporter since 1986, is that correct?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now earlier in your evidence you mentioned an ANC leader who was speaking to Jan M Phasha, do you remember the name of that leader, the youth leader that you were talking about?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, I do remember his name.

MR RICHARD: What was his name?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: His names were Oupa Kleinbooi Mokwala.

MR RICHARD: Now as you had been a supporter for a long time, would you be able to say that in the crowd around there, there other supporters of the ANC or were they just observers, spectators, curious people?  Or were they ANC supporters?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I would put it this way.  I did not know whether some of them were supporters of the ANC, but two to three of them I indeed knew that they were supporters, because I remember on a particular day when a meeting was held, a community meetings, I saw them in that meeting and they were the people who were actually leading the meeting, the proceedings in the meeting.

MR RICHARD: So from that we infer that the ANC youth leaders were part of the crowd that ultimately stoned Madibeng Phasha, or were present in the crowd.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: They were present, some of them were present.

MR RICHARD: Now to curtail the number of questions I'll put it as a catchall, is it also correct that you like your brother Michael, grew up and were educated in that area, and familiar with the tribal customs of the area?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now do you or did you then believe in witchcraft?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I did not believe in witchcraft because I haven't seen anything about that.

MR RICHARD: Now do you believe that molois and ngakas have powers to do things with the supernatural that will help or harm people?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I believe that a witch can harm a person, but not a traditional doctor.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Mr Richard, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	From what you are saying I understood you to say you did not take part in the killing of Madibeng Phasha, is that so?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And you even assisted Maletswai Phasha to avoid from being killed, is that so?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: It is not Maletswai Phasha, but Mashyani Phasha.

MR SIBANYONI: The question is, for what incident are you applying for amnesty?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I apply for amnesty in connection with my involvement and my inability to assist Madibeng when he asked me to ask for forgiveness on his behalf, because I was afraid they would also think that I am involved and I want to protect him.  That is the mistake that I made.  If I had asked for forgiveness on his behalf, maybe they could have not killed him.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, I'm aware of the Committee Members' problems.  The applicant was convicted on the basis of common purpose, as it quite often in the case of witchcraft killings.  There were certain witnesses whose evidence was preferred instead of his denial at the trial.  If we accept that the trial court found him guilty on the basis of common purpose, I would then attempt to argue that there is an act that he can receive amnesty for.  It's the best I can do in the situation.  He denies participating in the killing, but within the act, the concept of common purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's not necessary, physical participation, but we can deal with that.  Perhaps we can carry on with the evidence.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	My last question established the you do believe in witchcraft, now you've heard your brother's evidence as to why he believes the moloi for political reasons, decided to arrange or cause your brother Moses to be killed.  Do you associate with what he said, or not?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I would say that I associate myself, but on the other hand I would say I do not because in truth most of the things that happened there and were said there, I did not know because I was not always present at that place, because I was a person who was working, I was employed.

MR RICHARD: Why do you think Moses Phasha was killed?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: To be honest even today I cannot say why he was killed, I really do not know, but what I hear from other people is that he was killed because he was one of the people who was used, or rather his parts were used, were taken to be used for muti purposes.

MR RICHARD: And do you see any political advantage that the ANC or its opposition would get by that act of taking body parts for mixing into muti?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: NO.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Richard.  Mr Mokoena.

MR MOKOENA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have a few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Phasha, what did you understand to be political about the death of Mr Abraham Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Like I have already explained, the killing of Madibeng Phasha happened because he was a person who was sent to go and fetch Moses Phasha, because he was one of the family members.  So it would be easy for him to do that, because other people would be suspected if they enter the household.

MR RICHARD: How did his death benefit your organisation, that is the ANC Youth League?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Are you referring to Moses or Madibeng?

MS MTANGA: I'm referring to Abraham Madibeng.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: There is nothing that ANC benefitted from his death, or any other political organisation for that matter.  That is my perception.

MS MTANGA: Did you believe that your brother's death had anything to do with politics?  That is the death of Moses.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Like I have already explained, I did not have that knowledge and I did not have that belief, that he might have been killed for political reasons.

MS MTANGA: When you discovered that Abraham was killed, what was your - when you heard that he was killed and he was killed by the ANC Youth League members or supporters, what was your attitude towards his killing?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I was disturbed by that, because I heard that when I was at work.  I didn't like that, it disturbed me a lot and I knew that it wouldn't be easy for the person who was responsible for his killing to be caught.

MS MTANGA: Are you talking about Abraham Phasha?