Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: Doctor Motlana, on page 2 of Peter Storey's memorandum on the 6th of January - the penultimate section, there's a reference to you going to see Mrs Mandela and Mrs Mandela admits the children are there but refuses to give access when he asked: "to examine them".
 In page 3 of your own submission in the 3rd paragraph, you say you recall attending at Mrs Madikizela Mandela's residence and discussion the concerns that had been raise with you regarding the said minors and requested that they be released.  Is it possible that this is the same meeting that you're referring to?

TATO MOTLANA: Most probably Mr Chairman, but the statement that I asked to examine is not correct, I did not ask to examine them.  My mission had been to have them released if possible.

MR PIGOU: Were you refused access to the children?

TATO MOTLANA: I can't recall, my recollection is that Mrs Mandela would not refuse to see me.  During those years, Mrs Madikizela Mandela would not have refused to see me.

MR PIGOU: Sorry Doctor Motlana, let me make this clearer - I'm not asking whether she would have refused to see you, I'm asking whether she refused you access to those children or did you not indeed ask to see those children?

TATO MOTLANA: I did not ask for access to the children, I asked that the children be released.

MR PIGOU: An on what basis did you ask for the children to be released?  Where had you received those reports from?

TATO MOTLANA: The clergy, from the members of the Methodist Church, Reverend Peter Storey, John Reece and people like that.

MR PIGOU: Did Mrs Madikizela Mandela provide you with an explanation as to why the young men were being held or why they were at her house?

TATO MOTLANA: The story that has been told to other people was told to me too by Mrs Mandela, that the children were at her house to protect them from the Priest at the Methodist Church.

MR PIGOU: And were you aware - when you were approached by Bishop Storey and the other people in relation to this to approach Mrs Madikizela Mandela, that there had been a very serious allegation of an abduction and even an assault at the Manse of one of the residents there?  Were you aware of the gravity of the situation when you approach Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

TATO MOTLANA: No, I was not aware of any kidnapping - as you notice, the word: "kidnapped" does not appear in my statement, I was not aware of that.

MR PIGOU: So you were simply asked to make a general enquiry about some youths that were believed to be staying at the back of the house, is that correct?

TATO MOTLANA: No, not make a general enquiry, I'd been asked if I could, to have those youths released.

MR PIGOU: I want to hinge on this word: "released", if you were being asked to have these youths released, surely the inference is that they were being held against their will?

TATO MOTLANA: That's what I'd heard, that they'd been held against their will.

MR PIGOU: And Mrs Madikizela Mandela didn't give you access to those people or you didn't ask for access to those people.

TATO MOTLANA: I did not ask for access, I asked for them to be released.

MR PIGOU: Could you perhaps tell us why you didn't ask to have access to those people is there was indeed an allegation that they were being held against their will?  Surely you would have wanted to establish from the people themselves - the young men themselves, what the actual situation was?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, may I repeat myself for the third time, I was asked by the members of the clergy to assist in having those youngsters released.  And Mr Chairman, I succeeded, I personally was given custody of those children, I personally fetched them from the Mandela's, I took them into the custody of one Chris Naidoo at the Carton Centre - they were given to me.

MR PIGOU: I see, but not during this interchange or was it during this meeting?  What I'm trying to establish is that there is a 10 day period between the time that Bishop Storey says that you went there - which is the 6th of January, to the day that they were actually released into your custody and that you took them to Chris Naidoo on the 16th of January.  So, we have a sort of a crucial 10 day period and I'm trying to establish why nothing was done by you on the first meeting on the 6th of January.

TATO MOTLANA: My memory is not that good Mr Chairman, all I can say is that I went to Mrs Mandela, asked her to have the children released to the custody of the church or my custody and that subsequently that is exactly what happened.
 I'm sorry, but I cannot explain the ...[indistinct] you referred to, I was in the way of that ...[indistinct]

MR PIGOU: Thank you Doctor Motlana.  Tell me, when the boys were released into your custody on the 16th of January, did you notice that there were only two boys or had you been told that there were meant to be three boys and that there was a third boy missing?

TATO MOTLANA: I thought I took custody of three, the fourth was missing.

MR PIGOU: Okay I beg your pardon, I'm sorry, let me put it this way because we know in retrospect the story of Stompie Seipei, did you not ask any questions about where Stompie Seipei was when you took custody of the youths that you took from Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house?

TATO MOTLANA: I did not.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us why you didn't do that?

TATO MOTLANA: I cannot recall Mr Chairman, why I did not ask about the presence of Seipei, I was given three youths and probably I was just happy that at least I got some of them out - I didn't ask about Stompie.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us, was there any particular reason given or did you ask at all why these youths were being taken to Chris Naidoo and not to Mrs Madikizela Mandela's legal representative?

TATO MOTLANA: I could be wrong but I do believe there was a time when Chris Naidoo was in fact Mrs Mandela's legal representative - Chris was.

MR PIGOU: Thank you, no further questions for Doctor Motlana.
 Chair, I'm not sure whether you would want to go your circuit first and then come back to Father Mkhatsa and company?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me find out.  What do you want me to do Hanif?

MR VALLY: I think we should deal with all three gentlemen first.

CHAIRPERSON: That is exactly what I wanted to do.

DR RANDERA: Chairperson, you know it seems like Doctor Motlana's story is very different to Father Mkhatsa's and Mr Mbangula's story and perhaps we should take questioning of Doctor Motlana first.  I think we're going to get confused otherwise.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought so too.  Mr Semenya first.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may I for the record state the difficulty I have.  We are now in the fourth day of the hearing and [end of tape] totally difficult to consult in those circumstances, to authenticate the information that is there, to cross-reference the information and my professional responsibility to client, I think with respect, is being compromised.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I say first of all, we labour under the same problem but more - perhaps more is the fact that I would have thought that is there was substantial matters raised that canvassed a whole range of things, perhaps one might take account of what you are saying because I think that most of the time it has been an overnight situation.
 And I'm very, very sensitive to disadvantaging you or disadvantaging your client but I would say that in fact we have sought to be as helpful as we can be in  given the general circumstances.  I would say you have to raise - because I'm sure you wouldn't want to say that one single page statements raise profound issues of the sort that you raise.