Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: A name was mentioned during the session of the commission just now where Colonel de Jager referred to two people who had been shot. That matter of the scorpion on that morning I was the explosives officer who visited that scene. And I personally dealt with one of the witnesses at one of the house. And he gave information which lead to follow up operations of that whole day which include Mrs Mandela's house as well as the maroon Audi that she drove.

MR VALLY: ...

ANTON PRETORIUS: Can I just ask please? Does Mr Vally know of how Trewits operated because it's a very broad question? Does he know how Trewits operated? I don't think he knows.

MR VALLY: ... question and you tell me if you can answer it without giving me a whole long explanation. If you as the Trewits representative in Soweto had to submit your report who would you submit it to?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I'll try to keep it short. Trewits was divided into various areas. For instance at the Western Transvaal area, the divisional Commander or his second in command of that meeting would be the most senior person. So depending on who was presiding at the meeting, to that person I would give my information. During the meeting in writing or if they wanted a photo I would give a photo. But Mr Vally would have to be more specific as to which meeting exactly. Otherwise I can't help him.

MR VALLY: ... meeting you went to had a different person who was chairing that meeting?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I wouldn't say every time but it happened some times that the divisional head was of that region where we were, was not available because of leave or work pressure or whatever, then his second in command would preside.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that generally the divisional head would preside over those meetings?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That is correct.

MR VALLY: The times you attended those meetings, who was the divisional head?

ANTON PRETORIUS: To which division are you referring? I would, do I have to give an expose of the whole Trewits or just a short answer. I don't know where to start. As far as I know there never was an official Trewits meeting in Soweto. What happened, Trewits was divided into four regions. West Transvaal, that means Western Transvaal. So the divisional head of that section was the presiding officer or his second in command as I have said. In that time there were various commanders and second in commands who took over from each other. At this stage I don't want to give names. So the northern section, furthest of Northern Transvaal, Pietersburg. Then we had a difficult one, the Eastern Transvaal section.

MR VALLY: I want to know if Mr Pretorius says that he was linked to the Western section. Is that correct, was Soweto linked to the Western section?

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you not sure of the question, Mr Pretorius?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, I can hear but I think Mr Vally doesn't understand. There were four meetings a month. Once every week there was a meeting of each region. Let's call it by the four wind directions, those are the four meetings. I was not linked to each of them. I was tasked, if invited to attend any of those areas or even in the Free State, then I attended.
 I suppose it's General Victor that you are referring to, reports with regard to Mrs Winnie Mandela.

MR VALLY: Generally any reports and then specifically Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Like I've already told the Commission, I can't recall that I specifically mentioned anything about Mrs Mandela to Trewits. It's true that General Victor at a stage also was the Commander of Trewits. It is true that I did attend meetings where Mr Victor was present and I did divulge information there.

MR VALLY: But not about Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, not as far as I know unless Mr Vally can refresh my memory, but at this stage I don't recall that I during a Trewits meeting mentioned anything specific about Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: We have had sight of a list of names of people that Trewits had prioritised and Mrs Madikizela Mandela was one of them, surely you were asked to give them a political profile on her and her activities?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, like I've said I personally didn't do that but I must also explain that Trewits at a stage functioned in such a way that they had a branch. We had daily communication through letters with them and something could have been asked, such as that they were interested in a profile on Mrs Madikizela Mandela. I haven't received that and as far as I know I haven't given them that.

MR VALLY: You now saying you were in daily contact, so you didn't only get instructions from these meetings that you attended, but you were in daily contact. Can you give us an example of the kind of instruction that you would get from Trewits headquarters?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, probably Mr Vally didn't follow me properly. It is true that from time to time when the Trewits unit at the head office wanted to know something which they through their normal communication channel and of the Safety Branch, I think at that stage it was done through telexes, they would have a direct request to the Commander or a regional office asking about information on that matter and that is how it was done. I'm not saying that we had daily communication.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Give us one instruction given to you by Trewits?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission. I regularly received orders that they requested photographs of a specific MK member because one of the tasks amongst others of Trewits was to build up the terrorists album and to update it. Then they would send through a request and ask Soweto to help with Mr X or Mr J's photograph and asked us whether we could get hold of it. In many cases we could help, in other cases we couldn't. Or they requested personal particulars with regard to a person because certain things they had on computer.

MR VALLY: Mr Pretorius, as the head of the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch, and you were in Soweto for a long time, you were there for ten years, would it be true to say that in addition to telephone bugging that your office and you as the Commander of that unit would be the conduit for all intelligence information coming in, relevant to the Security Branch?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Negative. If I could just explain, if I may cite and example. Colonel Louis Watermeyer, who was attached to the Divisional Commander, somebody at a stage gave evidence here that in later years the Intelligence Service for administrative purpose we were involved with head office, our files and so forth but all the information I wanted to send had to go through the Protea divisional headquarters under the command of that person or his authorised signature.
 I didn't have the facility to get direct information to Pretoria or anywhere else in the country. I had the same communication channel like Colonel Watermeyer and Colonel Jan Pot. So in other words the information was sent through the divisional commander to Pretoria.

YASMINE SOOKA: Besides yourself Mr Pretorius, who were the other members who sat on Trewits from Soweto?

ANTON PRETORIUS: As far as I can recall, in the early stages I think at that stage Trewits wasn't even called that, it was Colonel de Jager who has already appeared before the Commission, Colonel Coetzee, who also has already appeared and the also from time to time there were other officers from Soweto, designated to attend some of the meetings, names which I can't remember at this stage.
 However at times neither myself or my colleagues could attend those meetings. At a stage there were even junior members sent to those meetings because we couldn't attend.

YASMINE SOOKA: But you were the official representatives on Trewits for your area?