Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV J MOSES: My Lord, is Counsel now leading evidence on behalf of a witness?
	I believe Counsel's instructions are to appear on behalf of Mr Bellingan who has testified.  We have received transcripts of Mr Bellingan's evidence.  I don't know on which basis is Counsel now proposing to lead Mr Liebenberg's evidence and put that in the form of a question to the witness.

MR BOOYENS: My Lord, I was always under the impression that if someone makes a statement in a document, I am entitled to speak to those witnesses.  I have spoken to Mr Liebenberg and he has given me that information.  The witness can deal with it any way he likes.  I am  not giving evidence, it's not necessary to give evidence.  There is nothing improper about it.  The name is there.  The Committee can call Mr Liebenberg, I fail to understand the objection.  I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: If the witness denies it, you can't rely on what you put and form the question.

MR BOOYENS: I can't rely on it all.  It's not the issue.  But I'm entitled to put it.
	What is your comment about the fact that Liebenberg says that he never sent anybody.  He told me that.

JIMMY MBANE: I would say the same thing.  I would also deny it if I was in Liebenberg's shoes.

MR BOOYENS: What happened to the tape recorders?

JIMMY MBANE: We destroyed them.

MR BOOYENS: You said that Liebenberg and Bellingan were aware of your whereabouts.  What was your whereabouts.  Where were you?  What was the address?

JIMMY MBANE: There are no proper addresses in the squatter camps.  We were just inside the shacks.

MR BOOYENS: No, but you said they knew your whereabouts.  How did they know your whereabouts?  How did you tell them where you were if there are no addresses or if you were just inside the shacks?  I seem to recall that this was an enormous squatter camp.

JIMMY MBANE: It was a squatter camp.  I made some contact with them.  Even De Kock was also there.  They requested me to wear a white cap and sit on top of the car and read a newspaper.  They would come with a helicopter in that area, which they did when De Kock came down to Cape Town.
	They saw me sitting right on top of the car, reading a newspaper.  It means they knew my whereabouts.

MR BOOYENS: This is the first time we hear this evidence.  Why is it not in any of your statements?

JIMMY MBANE: This incident happened a long time ago.  So I've got a problem with remembering everything at the same time.  And even the people who took my statements, I haven't seen them for a long time.  	Some of them, I haven't seen them at all.

MR BOOYENS: Well, if I understood correctly, you must have seen Mr Khoisan yesterday, if I'm not mistaken?  Or didn't you?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I saw him yesterday.

MR BOOYENS: And when did you see him before that, before yesterday?

JIMMY MBANE: I was with him on Sunday, Sunday evening I was with him.

MR BOOYENS: So you saw him on Sunday evening, you saw him yesterday.  Did you see on Monday as well?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you see Mr Khoisan?  You had legal representatives appointed for you.

JIMMY MBANE: It is because he is the only investigating officer that I know.

MR BOOYENS: But what did you want to discuss with him to see him, Sunday, Monday, yesterday, this morning?  What did you want to discuss with him?  Did you see him this morning as well?

JIMMY MBANE: I saw him today.

MR BOOYENS: This morning, yes.  So Sunday, Monday, yesterday, this morning.  What did you want to discuss with Mr Khoisan?  Why the necessity to speak to him all this time?

JIMMY MBANE: He is the person who knows where I stay.  He went to fetch me in the morning, and even from the airport.  He is the one who fetched me.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, okay.  When did you arrive in Cape Town?

JIMMY MBANE: I arrived Sunday evening, late in the evening.  I can't remember the time.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Now for what purpose did you see him on Monday.  I can understand that he fetched you at the airport.  Why did you see him on Monday?  What did you want to discuss with him?

JIMMY MBANE: He knows my place.  He normally takes me from this office to my place.  Even in the morning, he fetches me from my place to the TRC offices.

MR C BOOYENS: Did you discuss the case with him?  The evidence?

JIMMY MBANE: No, we didn't talk about anything concerning the case.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: I talked to him today because of the affidavit.  And I was actually asking him...I was requesting a copy of the affidavit that I made in November.  So there is nothing else that we talk about.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't ask him for an affidavit on Sunday or on Monday?

JIMMY MBANE: No, it's only yesterday that I remembered, late yesterday.
	So this morning I requested him to bring me the affidavit.

MR BOOYENS: Where did you say in Cape Town?  In a hotel?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't think it's necessary for me to reveal that type of information.

MR BOOYENS: I'm talking about - I'm not asking your address.  Is it correct that you stayed in a hotel and correct that you stayed there with Mr Khoisan?

ADV J MOSES: My Lord, does my learned friend mean on previous occasions or during...

MR BOOYENS: Now.  Now.

JIMMY MBANE: I can't respond to that question.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: I can't reconcile this incident with what you are asking me now.

MR BOOYENS: I'll tell you why I think it's relevant because I asked at the end when this matter was adjourned in November, I asked if there was a statement made.  I was not given a statement, so I want to know what's going on here.  That's why I want to know that.
	Did you stay with Mr Khoisan in a hotel in Cape Town?  Yes or no.

JIMMY MBANE: I can't respond to that question.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?

JIMMY MBANE: It's because I don't see the connection of these things.

MR BOOYENS: I haven't been stopped from asking the question.  I think you're obliged to answer it.  It's not for you to decide what's relevant.  It's for the Committee.
	Do you refuse to answer this question?  Do you refuse to answer this question?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know where Mr Khoisan stays.

MR BOOYENS: That's not the question.
	Do you refuse to answer the question whether now in Cape Town, from the time you arrived here, you stayed in a hotel with Mr Khoisan?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know who told you that we're staying in a hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbane, you seem to be avoiding answering the question.	It's a simple question, you don't have to ask Counsel who told him you were doing so.  Did you or did you not stay in a hotel with Mr Khoisan?

JIMMY MBANE: I am not staying with him in a hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you say that in the first place?  Why did we have this evasive behaviour by you?

JUDGE MILLER: I think your answer was you are not staying in a hotel with him.  The question was did you stay in a hotel with Mr Khoisan at any stage?  Since your arrival at the airport on Sunday evening.

JIMMY MBANE: I am not staying with him in a hotel.

MR BOOYENS: You are not answering the question.
	Very well, let's make it simpler.  Let's forget about hotels and technicalities.  Did you stay together with Mr Khoisan anywhere in Cape Town since your arrival in Cape Town on Monday, on Sunday night?  If you refuse to answer the question, just tell me so, and I'll leave it.

JIMMY MBANE: I am not staying with him.

MR BOOYENS: You are still deliberately avoiding the question.  You say you are not staying with him.  The question is:  did you at any time since your arrival in Cape Town stay together with Mr Khoisan anywhere?  You can just tell me if you refuse to answer the question, then I'll leave it at that.  Otherwise, you can answer it if you don't refuse to answer it.

JIMMY MBANE: All I am telling you is I am not staying with him and I never did before.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, at long last we got an answer.
	Why were you so reluctant to answer that question?