Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: Can we just sum up what you're in a position to say Mr Mhlaba, that you were never really in a position to observe what was happening in the front of the group or what people there were doing, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct, that's what I'm saying.

MR TIPP: Can you tell us in relation to the intersection, where were you when you tried to help your colleague who had fallen and when you got injured yourself, when you were struck?

MR MHLABA: It was right at the intersection, because this brother of mine fell on one side next to a pavement just after passing the crossing street and that's where I also fell after I was shot.

MR TIPP: So you personally had gone right across the intersection, do I understand you correctly?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we were already across the street, because after meeting this first group and we formed one group we are about to cross the intersection and few people managed to cross the intersection, the others were still at the back and they turned and ran back and we all dived on the ground and those who were able to run, they ran away.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I'm going to ask you please just to take it slowly, I'll try and put my questions as simply as I can.  Were you personally across that intersection when you were struck, or had you not yet gone right across the intersection?

MR MHLABA: I had already crossed the intersection, I had just finished crossing the street, I was on the other side of the street.

MR TIPP: Now I take it, I would imagine that you've been back to that scene since the event?

MR MHLABA: I would say I don't usually come to town.  Since I got injured I'm staying at home in the township.  I don't come to town that often and if I come to town I only come to the Commission and even today, that was the only time I'm coming here.  I'm also afraid to go towards that direction.

MR TIPP: Let me just make it clear, even for the purpose of preparing this statement that has been put in by you in this Commission, you didn't go back to the scene to look at street names or to point out where you had been at various stages of the events?

MR MHLABA: As I've said, I can only describe as I'm sitting here as to how we moved during that day.  After as I proceeding, jumping the first street ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry, you're not answering the question, the question put to you was, as you are here now, did you get any chance to meet with your lawyers in preparation to give the evidence you are giving before the Commission?  Did you get a chance to go and see the scene where these things occurred?

MR MHLABA: I did meet my lawyers as I'm here today, however we never went to that place.

MR TIPP: So you're still not able to assist us just with references to street names or anything like that?

MR MHLABA: Yes I don't know the name of the streets.

MR TIPP: You had crossed over the intersection, does that mean then that all the people who had been in front of you had gone into the street past the intersection?

MR MHLABA: Yes those who were in front of me, they've already crossed the street, and those from behind, they were still on the other side, they haven't yet crossed.  It means only half the people who were in front managed to cross the street when the shooting started.

MR TIPP: And the portion of the street we're talking about is now the street right next to the building where you saw some people on the - I think you called it the roof, on the balcony, who were among those who fired shots?

MR MHLABA: Yes, it is the one that passed next to the building on this hand.  It's on the other side of the building  ...(as he's demonstrating, can't get a clear picture).

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I'm sorry, you're doing all sorts of pointing out on the table, I'm afraid it's not assisting anybody here.  Mr Chairman I wonder, we'll put up a map and - a street-plan, I wonder if it might be an opportune moment, and we'll then continue on hopefully a clearer base.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman may I just indicate at this time, I went through the exercise of trying to plot the witness by way of a map, it's gonna be of no assistance to the Committee, it's gonna ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

BAFANA GONZWEIZA MHLABA: (s.u.o.)

MR MHLABA: I've already explained before that I never even went to school.  As it has already been displayed, I'm lost, I don't even know where to start.

MR TIPP: Has it ever been discussed with you what the name was of the building where this incident took place?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Have you been told that it was Shell House?

MR MHLABA: Yes they did tell me that it's Shell House building.

MR TIPP: Yes alright, well let me just make an attempt, Mr Chairman we're not going to attempt unduly, if I can just ask my colleague to just point out where Shell House is, and to point out the portion of King George Street just to the left of it.  Now I'm going to ask you Mr Mhlaba, are you able to follow that the street next to that building? The building has been coloured green, and there's a street that has been pointed out to you running next to it, can you follow that?

MR MHLABA: I can't see the street which we are using.  I don't know from the Park Station where we could be from the map.  From the Park Station, yes we proceeded from Park Station.  Which building are you talking about, is it this one?  When we're there we were coming from that direction and the first group was standing there.  We formed one group on that point and we proceeded down up and that's where they started shooting at us and the other person fell on that point.

MR TIPP: Well that's very helpful Mr Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to - if all that means anything at all ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: I'm going to.

CHAIRPERSON: As he points, will somebody read out the name of the streets or the roads that he's pointing at.

MR TIPP: Yes, let me try to summarise what has been pointed out.  Mr Mhlaba has shown the direction from which they moved down King George Street from a northerly side towards a southern side.  He has identified the intersection of King George Street and De Villiers Street, and has pointed to a position just to the south of that intersection in the portion of King George Street adjacent to Shell House where he was when he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that it?

MR DORFLING: That's correct.

MR TIPP: My learned friends it?

MR DORFLING: I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

MR TIPP: Thank you.  So just to round off this point then, the point that you've just showed to the Committee where you were, it means that many hundreds of marchers were in front of you further to the south of King George Street along Shell House.  I'm going to ask my colleague Mr Berger just to indicate the area and you can confirm.
	So in that portion of the street there were hundreds of people, hundreds of marchers in front of you?

MR MHLABA: Yes, as we were crossing up - after crossing the street there were not many of them, but that's where the shooting occurred.  The other one fell right at the corner.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: The shooting in the general vicinity of the corner of King George and De Villiers, in that general vicinity, is that right Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: I confirm that that is what the witness pointed out physically on the map.

MR TIPP: Yes, that's in order.
	Mr Mhlaba you've said already in your evidence earlier, you were asked whether there'd been any shooting from amongst the marchers, you say you didn't hear or see it but you can't say that there wasn't such shooting, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I said so.  I didn't see anything, I will not deny what might have happened right in front of me as there was this large sounds of cracking guns.  I didn't know where they were coming from.