Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ELSIE MOKOENA: Hapile was questioned about she was our friend, in other words she was always seen in our company.

MS THABETHE: When you say in our company, who are you referring to?  It's yourself and who?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Sometimes she would be with me, at time she would be with Meme.

MS THABETHE: Was Meme also there?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What was she questioned about?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Are you referring to Meme?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

ELSIE MOKOENA: She was questioned about the cars that would be seen at her home.

MS THABETHE: What kind of cars?

ELSIE MOKOENA: The Cortinas, Ford Cortinas.

MS THABETHE: No but what I'm saying is why was she questioned about the house and the cars that would be at her house?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They questioned her because those cars belonged to members of the IFP.

MS THABETHE: And what was her response?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She responded by saying yes there was one among them whom she had a relationship with.

MS THABETHE: What was the outcome of Hapile's questioning on that day?

ELSIE MOKOENA: The decision was general.

MS THABETHE: What was the decision?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That we can be free and leave as normal.

MS THABETHE: After you had been questioned, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you leave that aspect.  The decision was general that you could be free and leave as normal.  Prior to that enquiry had you not been living a normal life?

ELSIE MOKOENA: What I'm trying to explain is, yes we lived normal in the township.  Meme, there were cars that frequented Meme's home and it was rumoured in the township that she was a member of the IFP.  Now this person was actually referring to the freedom.  He referred to, he said we should to live free in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand that to mean that insofar as Meme was concerned she could continue to see him, that visitors of the persons who were driving the many cars that had been seen parked outside her home, that she could continue with a relationship with a person she had admitted that she was a member of the IFP.

ELSIE MOKOENA: He was not referring to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let me understand you better.  To what was he referring?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He heard from Meme that she was going out with that, Memo advanced reasons why she was going out with that person.  She told him that she did not know that these were members of the I, of Inkatha, and these people were not yet known that they were members of the IFP.  I only knew them to be car stealers.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean car hijackers?

INTERPRETER: Car thieves, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Car thieves.  You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  After the questioning, or after the enquiry, did you continue to see your boyfriend, the policeman?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, there's a problem with the sound.  The microphones are on but the interpreters can't get anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Probably that's because Ms Mokoena had her had covered over hers.  Can you just keep your hands away from this portion of the instrument.

ELSIE MOKOENA: I can't hear ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can you hear us now?

INTERPRETER: The problems seems to be with the box inside the booth.

MR LAX: Have you sorted it out now?

INTERPRETER: It's sorted out Madam Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Can you hear me?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Please continue.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  My question was, after the enquiry did you stay with your boyfriend?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: For how long thereafter?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Two years.

MS THABETHE: When you were attacked were you still staying with your boyfriend?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: The applicants have applied for amnesty.  What is your response to that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not have any forgiveness for them.

MS THABETHE: Why?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Even if I forgive them and they get amnesty, who knows, they might come after me and kill me.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying the reason for not accepting, or rather, the reason for you opposing is that you are scared they are going to come after you?

CHAIRPERSON: That's not correct Ms Thabethe.  You only addressed the question of whether she was forgiving them or not, which is not the basis of either granting or refusing amnesty.

MS THABETHE: May I should rephrase ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The point , get to the point.

MS THABETHE: My instruction Ms Mokoena is that you are opposing their application for amnesty.  Can you tell this Committee why you are opposing their application for amnesty?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I am here to tell the Committee that I do not forgive these people.

MS THABETHE: Is that all?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.  I do not forgive them.  Should it happen that they are, they get free, they might come and finish me off.

MS THABETHE: What, would you say in, what they did was, you think was political?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not think so.

MS THABETHE: Why do you say that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: In their application they alleged that we were members of the IFP.  It was common that if you are a member of the IFP your house would be burned and you would be killed immediately.  I was not killed immediately when it was rumoured around the township that I was going out with a policeman and that I was a spy, and my home wasn't burned.

MS THABETHE: Regarding what they have said, the evidence that they have given, would you say they had told the whole truth to the Amnesty Committee about what happened that day, on the 15th of August 1993?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, they told the truth, and some way they told lies.

MS THABETHE: What do you mean they told lies?  Which lies did they tell?

ELSIE MOKOENA: About the information that they sought from the deceased, and that she was involved in the Boipatong massacre.  That is not true.  I know the deceased was not present during that massacre.  She was  in gaol.  She would have never told them lies.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I have no further questions.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Moloisane do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee, Madam Chair, I do have questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: Ms Mokoena, you said John Radebe and one Godfrey abducted, actually Sissy told you that John Radebe and on Godfrey abducted her, and went to sleep with her.  Is that correct

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: My instructions are that there is only one Godfrey, namely Godfrey Shiya, who is a friend of John Radebe.  Are you also referring to this Godfrey Shiya?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to the whereabouts of, as to, let me put it this way Madam Chair.
	Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to where Godfrey Shiya was during the incident that Sissy was telling you about?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Godfrey was around the township, I am sure, yes.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you that during that time Godfrey Shiya was away.  He was actually out of the country.  He was at a place known as Maputswa in Lesotho.  What is your comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is not true.

MS MOLOISANE: It is also my instruction that Godfrey Shiya had left the country early in 1992, and only returned in January, early in 1993.  What do you say?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is not true.

MS MOLOISANE: It is also my instruction that there is documentary proof in the form of a passport belonging to this Godfrey Shiya, that can be produced to prove that he was not in the country at that stage.  What can you, do you say?
(gap between tapes)

MS MOLOISANE: Did you ever see Godfrey Shiya in Sebokeng during period, between early 1992 and early 1993?

MR LAX: Sorry, Ms Moloisane, if you've, if your instructions deal with a passport, surely you've got specific dates?