Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete are there any other matters that we need to deal with?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, the matter that remains is the matter of Mr Themba Nhlapo.  The legal representatives are here.  If I can be given five minutes to talk to the victims.  I did consult with them yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for five minutes then.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: Will the court please stand.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller, you're appearing with the applicant in this matter?

MR MILLER: That is correct yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr Nhlapo, what language would you prefer to use?

MR NHLAPO: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand.

THEMBA T NHLAPO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Be seated.  Yes, Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Nhlapo, you have read your application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And you confirm the contents thereof, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: You've also made an affidavit which was signed this morning, which expands a little bit on your ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Just hang on Mr Miller.  I want to arrange headphones for the victims, they can't hear anything.

MR MILLER: Sorry.
ADV SIGODI ARRANGES FOR HEADPHONES FOR VICTIMS

MR MILLER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Now this morning you made a further affidavit which expanded somewhat on your original application, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And you have read this affidavit and signed it, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And you confirm the contents thereof.

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I do.

MR MILLER: Just in brief, you admit that you killed the deceased on the 27th of August 1992, while you were ...(intervention)?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I do.

MR MILLER: And just very briefly, without going into too much detail, just very briefly for the record, what was your motivation in committing this offence?

MR NHLAPO: It was not my intention to kill the deceased, we wanted to rob the deceased of the firearm.

MR MILLER: Yes, but what did you plan to do with the firearm?

MR NHLAPO: We wanted to make use of the firearm at my place of residence.

MR MILLER: Was this because you were being attacked, as you set out in your affidavit?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, we were being attacked at our place of residence.

MR MILLER: Now the - and also just for the record, you are serving a sentence of 21 years, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And you were convicted of the crimes of murder, robbery and possession of a firearm and ammunition?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And you are applying now for amnesty in respect of all these offences?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And the family of the victim, of the deceased are present today, do you have anything to say to them?

MR NHLAPO: I would like to apologise to them.

MR MILLER: I have no further questions, Chairperson.  I ask that this affidavit which I believe you have copy of, be handed in as evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER

CHAIRPERSON: It is accepted as evidence.

MR MILLER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I would like to put on record that I will be assisting the victims in this matter to lead their evidence.  I would like to also put it on record that the father of the deceased is here, the brother is here, his wife is also here.

CHAIRPERSON: The deceased's wife?

UNKNOWN: The deceased's wife, yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Nhlapo, when this incident occurred, where were you staying?  Where were you residing?

MR NHLAPO: At Mandela squatter camp.

UNKNOWN: Do you perhaps know why the court in its indictment have written that you used to live at Emdene township, in house number 1206 in Soweto?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I know.

UNKNOWN: Explain briefly why.

MR NHLAPO: At the time of my arrest the police wanted to know where I resided and I knew that if I took them to Mandela squatter camp where I resided, they would discover the other comrades that I was with and then I decided to refer them to Emdene 1206.

UNKNOWN: Were you a member of the ANC when you lived at Mandela squatter camp?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I was a follower of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Where you a member of the SDU?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I was a member of the SDU.

UNKNOWN: In which area was your SDU operating?

MR NHLAPO: We were operating at the squatter camp.

UNKNOWN: So can you explain, did you operate in other areas as well or you operated only in Mandela squatter camp?

MR NHLAPO: We operated only at Mandela squatter camp and not in other areas.

UNKNOWN: And your day to day activities as SDUs there, what did it involve?

MR NHLAPO: We were watching over the community, protecting it seeing that we were being attacked, that was our duty.

UNKNOWN: Who used to attack you?

MR NHLAPO: People from the hostel.

UNKNOWN: And when you were guarding against them from attacking you, how did you do this, how did you guard against them attacking you?

MR NHLAPO: We were guarding ourselves against being attacked and we would protect ourselves in the event of being attacked.

UNKNOWN: Coming back to the incident at Albertina, what were you doing there?

MR NHLAPO: We wanted the police who were in possession of firearms, that we could rob them of their firearms.

UNKNOWN: Were you looking specifically for policemen or were you looking for any people that you could get firearms from?

MR NHLAPO: Specifically we were looking for the police and the Security people.

UNKNOWN: Did you know - oh sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) at paragraph 21 indicates that you were looking for anybody.

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that was true, but we specifically targeted the police and the security.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't make sense to me that.  Why didn't you say that in your affidavit then?

MR NHLAPO: I think it was a mistake on my part to say anybody could have been a target, but specifically I must indicate that anyone in possession of a firearm could have been a target.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is the truth, what is the factual position?

MR NHLAPO: We wanted anybody in possession of a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Not necessarily policemen, anyone that was in possession of a firearm?

MR NHLAPO: Anybody in possession of a firearm.  We wanted to accumulate firearms for ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: So your affidavit is correct?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: How did you target Mr Molaoa, that is the deceased?

MR NHLAPO: We were walking past and we saw this police vehicle parked and we saw these police sitting inside.  There were two of them.  We discussed amongst ourselves the fact that this a police vehicle and there are some policemen.

UNKNOWN: Before I ask questions on what you've just said, I just want to back a bit.  Did you know the deceased before seeing him that day?

MR NHLAPO: No, I didn't know him.

UNKNOWN: So your evidence is that you identified because you saw a police vehicle, is that so?

MR NHLAPO: No, I didn't know the deceased, I only saw this police vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware, Mr Nhlapo, that the deceased did not travel in a police vehicle that could be identified?

MR NHLAPO: He was using a police vehicle because I could see this police radio inside.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I'm a bit confused.  Is it your evidence that this was not a police vehicle, but you just saw - can you just clarify there, why you thought this was a police vehicle?

MR NHLAPO: We walked past this vehicle and on walking past I saw this police radio and we concluded that the police must be sitting inside because the radio was the one that was used by the police.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean by the microphone?

MR NHLAPO: There are these microphones that are used by the police and on walking past this vehicle we saw this microphone inside the police vehicle.