Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MR SARDIWALLA: So was that or was that not one of the prime reasons why you decided to target this bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you present at the attack on the 26th February?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I was present.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you yourself see this bakkie or not?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I did see it.

MR MALAN: Did you know who this bakkie belonged to?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I did.

MR MALAN: Why did you tell us that a certain woman, a certain female told you that Makeke drove that van?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, she was confirming that knowledge we had Although we were aware that he used that van, it was her who confirmed that information that yes indeed he used the vehicle.

MR MALAN: Who was this female?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Tula Cele Gcabashe.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  On the morning of the 2nd March you proceeded to execute your decision.  Can you explain where you went and what you did?  I am referring you specifically, if you look at your affidavit, to page 5 paragraph 16.15, 6.15 sorry, and 6.16, 17 and 18.  Can you look at them and explain those aspects in your affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, Mr Sardiwalla, just to expedite these proceedings so that we don't have to come back as a Committee to ask questions of clarity, you might as well try and interject, which is quite an uncomfortable position for you but maybe it will also afford you an opportunity to try and do whatever damage might be done by your client whilst he's still giving his evidence in chief.  Your paragraph 6.14 speaks of Saul Mkhize, Khumbu Shangase, Sishe Madlala and the applicant as having been deployed to ambush the vehicle at the meeting of the 1st of March 1993.  My concern, I hope you will appreciate, is the fact that the evidence that we have thus far, is that nobody deployed them to ambush the vehicle, that they themselves volunteered to do this aside.  Now we have no evidence whether this was taken back to the meeting and the meeting then confirmed that since you have volunteered you may proceed.  How, in what context is this word deployed used having regard to the viva voce evidence of Mr Zulu?

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, may I just explain what I understood and what I believe my client understands as being this paragraph.  He has given evidence as to why this particular method was being used in taking decisions and in the normal sense, yes, I would agree that deploying is an instruction by a group or a person saying "go and do this, you, you and you go and ensure that this task is done", but because of the nature of events that my client has explained at the time, the method by which people deployed themselves to conduct a particular deed or act in the pursuance of a decision, was as he has described.  It was not done - effectively they were deployed or they were deploying themselves via this process that was the common method by which it was done.  So it was a form of deploying but not in the sense that one would normally use it given the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: So this in fact was an unfortunate choice of a word on your part.  You drew the affidavit based on his instructions.

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes, I may concede that maybe it wasn't quite intended to be deployed, although in the general context of the evidence, it was an accepted aspect that he had been deployed, but yes, I agree, in the light of what he has said today it may be is the wrong choice of word.

ADV DE JAGER: After you volunteered, who planned the attack the next morning?   Was the attack planned only between the four of you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we planned the attack.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you decide where the attack should take place?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We decided that we were going to block the road, or the route that they used.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they use that road every day?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, they did.

ADV DE JAGER: Did anybody watch him, survey him for a few days to see what he's doing and who's accompanying him?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, no-one did that but we knew that that was the road they used.

CHAIRPERSON: We need to take a two minute adjournment at the request of somebody who has chosen to remain unknown at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla you may proceed, the ball is still in your court.

MR SARDIWALLA: (cont)
	Thank you Chairperson.  The morning of the 2nd of March 1998 you proceeded to execute your decision.  Now can you briefly confirm the steps you took as described in paragraphs 6 - 15, 16, 17 and 18 of the affidavit at page 5?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: On the 2nd of March we went out to dig out the weapons we had concealed.  There were two Ak47's, V11 and a 303 firearm.  We thereafter left.  There was a steep hill where we hid behind some trees.  That is where we waited until the vehicle approached and when it approached we went out onto the road and we started firing.

MR MALAN: Please continue.  Tell us about the firing.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: There were four of us and we fired simultaneously and we were standing just next to the road where the vehicle was approaching, that is in front.

MR SARDIWALLA: Now as far as the road is concerned, can you just describe the road?  Did you see this vehicle approaching from a distance?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We saw it approaching from a distance and we prepared ourselves so that as it came closer to us we would come out from where we were hiding and start firing.

MR SARDIWALLA: Are you saying that it was just after a bend that you opened fire, when the vehicle emerged on an incline, at a bend?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR SARDIWALLA: Did you ever have the opportunity of checking who was in the vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we could not ascertain who was in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us an estimation of how far were you from the point at which this car was, that is the bend in the road?  How far were you?  You were hiding in some trees.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I think it could have been 10, 15 or 20 metres, although I'm not sure whether I'm accurate.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you step out into the road and block the road?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We stepped out and stood on the edge of the road and started firing.

MR SARDIWALLA: Now, when you fired were you facing the vehicle head on?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Saul was facing the vehicle although he was not in the centre of the road, but he was standing on the road and we were all facing the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that, I didn't get.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Saul.

MR SARDIWALLA: And where were you standing?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was standing on the side.

MR SARDIWALLA: When you commenced firing, you say the vehicle was about 10, 15 or 20 metres.  Can you give some indication in this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: 10 or 15 metres, not 20 metres.

MR SARDIWALLA: My apologies, 10 or 15 metres.  Can you give some approximation of the distance here, from where you are sitting, as to where the vehicle was?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I can.  From where I am seated it could be up to the lady out there.  I would say up to that distance where the lady is standing.

MR SARDIWALLA: Would one estimate that as being approximately, Chairperson, about 50 metres, 40, 50 metres?

CHAIRPERSON: No, ...(indistinct - mike not on about 10 to 15.

MR SARDIWALLA: 15 metres, from there?  20 at the most, yes.
Okay.  Did you have a specific view of who was in the vehicle?  You say you did not?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we did not see who was inside.

MR MALAN: May I just get back to this distance from the vehicle.  Were you that distance from the vehicle when you were shooting?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I have mentioned before that I may not be accurate in measuring it in metres.