Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true, because when the police arrested you with pamphlets that you were supposed to distribute to different places they would say you were one of the troublemakers.  For instance when you were coming from a meeting where we were trying to find solutions to our problems, as well as the Sarmcol group, they would come to our places and they would say we were the people who were actually causing havoc.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Let me ask another question.  Did you use any violence in order to prevent people from going to work?

WITNESS:   At no stage did we use violence, because most of the people who went to work at that time were our relatives, our neighbours, people very close to us, as well as residents of that particular place.  We were trying to negotiate

KHOZA MGOJO:  Secondly is where you point out that three leaders who were trying to preach the gospel of peace were detained.  To set our records straight, because we are in the Truth Commission, we want some clarity.  Do you remember who these leaders were who were taken and detained when you were supposed to have a meeting with the IFP, the UDF, as well as the Chamber of Commerce?  Three leaders were taken who were preaching the gospel of peace.  They were detained and you could not go on with the negotiations.  Do you still remember their names?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do remember two.  I am very sure about the two, but not the third one.  It was Reggie Hadebe and Sikhumbuzo Ngwenya, but they have since been deceased.

KHOZA MGOJO:  My Committee Member has just told me that the third one was Martin Wittenberg.  That is the professor's son.  I am just reminding you that it was Martin Wittenberg who was present.  I just wanted some clarity so that we can sort this matter out, so that we know where we are heading to.  Lastly, on the 25th of February 1990 there were certain buses which are alleged to have gone past that area, and when these buses came back never took the same route that they took when they were going to, and they took a turn at Edendale Hospital.  Do you still remember why these buses took a turn at the Edendale Hospital?

WITNESS:   Even though I was not in the same vicinity, but according to my opinion I think when the police observed what these commuters did they realised that it would not be safe for them to go past the same area, because everybody went outside and we were waiting for the attack to take place.  Because it was not the first time that this happened that they went by shooting at residents.  It was not the first time, and now people were prepared and they had actually armed themselves so that they could protect themselves, and they wanted to see what was going to happen.

KHOZA MGOJO:  According to your own opinion do you think the police prevented them from taking the same route?  What do you think actually happened?

WITNESS:   I could agree with you, because everything that they did you would see them talking to the police before they take a final decision.  You would even see in the newspapers that the police would report that they would be keeping a vigil alongside the roads, and in the morning we would see the police as well as the soldiers forming some sort of a guard of honour along the road, and we realised that they were being protected by the police.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Mr Sishi, you mentioned some vehicles which were involved in drive-by shootings.  I'll just repeat the question.  You mentioned some vehicles that were involved in drive-by shootings.

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO:  And you said they didn't have numberplates.

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO:  But many of those vehicles were quite well known in various areas.

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Could you - are you able to say who those vehicles might have belonged to?

WITNESS:   What I could say is that there was a change of, I would say, thinking among police after the 1990 - after the Seven Days War in 1990, because we were flooded with mainly white policemen, and that was our main concern, that how if we are policed by local police, people who we know.  Instead policemen from all over the place, especially white policemen, were the ones who were now policing the place, and they didn't have time to listen to us, they only acted.  And they always put traps on especially young people.  For example they will be given a bait, you know, of say an Inkatha person would be allowed to drive on his own along Edendale Road, whereas they were following him.  And once the youth start stoning that truck, car, or what, then they will then appear from nowhere.  So there were many such instances where people were put into a trap.

KHOZA MGOJO:  I don't know whether you've answered the question that was just asked.  I want to ask you as to whether - these white police you said were taking people and dumping them off at Inkatha strongholds, is there one policeman at the least that you can remember or can identify?

WITNESS:   In this area there were so many security police who were very well known at that time, which you could point out, but after 1990 foreign police were coming into the area, police that we did not know.  It means the very well known ones were actually hiding somewhere, and they were putting forward the ones they knew that we could not identify or we didn't know.  They wanted them to be at the forefront.

MR DLAMINI: Mr Sishi, I've got only one question.  You pointed out that there were certain youths who were taken and dumped at an IFP stronghold, and some of these children never returned.  Do you perhaps remember the names of these youths?

WITNESS:   Once incident that I remember quite vividly, but I was just making an example that it did not happen only at our place, or within that region, but it happened even in other rural areas and surrounding areas. And the problem is that we did not know each other very well, but we would hear stories that police came at 12 o'clock at a certain place and they picked up people, they went to dump them off at certain areas.  That's how we got to know about these abductions, and they became a usual occurrence.

MR DLAMINI:  I am quite pleased that Mr Dlamini did ask this question because I wanted to ask it myself.  If there are children who had been abducted and never returned we should conduct an investigation and see as to where they are, if they are still alive.  Do you perhaps remember any parents of the children that were abducted and never returned?  We would like the parents to come forward to relate their stories, so we want to conduct further investigations with regard to those children.  That's why I am asking this question.  Do you perhaps know any of the parents whose child went away and never came back?  Is there any particular family that you remember which was affected by this?

WITNESS:   Since I heard that the victims of the human rights abuses should be present I tried personally to contact some of the people, but since I do not have transport it's difficult for me, especially because a lot of people ran away to different places to seek some refuge and they never came back, so it's very difficult for us to actually get in touch with members of that community.