Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

EDWARD WEBB: We all at one stage or another found ourselves in South West and we all fought SWAPO and he was an important figure there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there anyone else that was discussed with you, or any other project that was discussed with you besides Lubowski?

EDWARD WEBB: Not as far as I can recall in Region 6.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  So as far as you were concerned, for a period of a year, Section 6 did the operation "Apie" and did the operation in relation to the Early Learning Centre and you heard in passing about the monitoring of Lubowski, nothing else.

EDWARD WEBB: No, there was the establishment of people, the establishing of each member in Region 6, in his so-called "Blue Plan."

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know those are administrative matters, what did they do when they were appointed, what did they do?  How many of them were there?  Six in Section 6, were there?

EDWARD WEBB: At that stage I didn't know how many people there were, but there were very few.

GEORGE BIZOS: In Section 6?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: How much was Section 6 costing the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I can't recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well Region 6.  I'm trying to avoid "district" that you use in Afrikaans, because "district" and 6 for the people of Cape Town, have different connotations.

EDWARD WEBB: We use the word "Region" in Afrikaans.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, it's Region.

EDWARD WEBB: Region.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  How much was it costing you a year?

EDWARD WEBB: For Region 6?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

EDWARD WEBB: I can't remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let's try and work it out, about six motorcars, I suppose at about R30 000 each, about R3 000 in salary, motor expenses, opening offices expenses, setting them up in business, production bonuses for these two projects and one mentioned in passing.  Are you saying that you are telling the Committee everything that you knew as a result of the meetings that you had with Mr Verster and that you've made full disclosure?  Is that what you want the Committee to believe?

EDWARD WEBB: In respect of Region 6, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry General, we've heard that Region 6 was actually established before you got there, that certain people were employed, they were set up, established, I think they used the word ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: The blue plan.

CHAIRPERSON: ... and now you're starting with a new region.  Can you explain why there wasn't any more enthusiasm, why they were so inactive in their first year of operation after having spent about eight months getting their feet settled under the desk, type of thing?  Why would there only have been these two operations?  Wouldn't that have been a concern to you as the Chairman, of them being under productive?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, this Region 6 was a long term project, they became active on 1 January '89, but some of them were still busy with their blue plans, they were trying to establish themselves.  It was a long term project, not something which could be done overnight.  For them to still build up their contacts and to recruit members who were not aware etcetera, that simply is a long term thing.  It wasn't a matter of, "Look, there's an enemy on the other side of the fence, let's attack him."

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) what we were told by Verster, was a budgeted amount for ...(indistinct).  If you didn't know about it, where did the money come from?

EDWARD WEBB: I can only explain it by saying that these funds went where they were not entitled to go.  I don't know how exactly it was done.  The budget was approved or drafted a year ago in advance, funds were allocated for certain things that might or might not happen, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Judge was told that the CCB cost R27-million a year, can you tell us what portion of that went into Region 6?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I can't, but I'm sure it will be a smaller amount.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't say how many millions?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I can't.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why Mr Verster should not have approached you in respect of the Omar and Evans projects?

EDWARD WEBB: I can't.

GEORGE BIZOS: No you see, this is what you say, but now let me ask you a few questions about what one or other of the members of Region 6 say.  Did anyone ever discuss Frank Chikane with you?

EDWARD WEBB: Not with me, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you agree that Frank Chikane was a high profile person?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just for the record, was he the Chairperson of the South African Council of Churches?

EDWARD WEBB: I'm not sure.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was the General Secretary.  I beg your pardon, General Secretary.  Yes the South African Council of Churches was one of the enemies of the apartheid State, was it not?

EDWARD WEBB: Well they certainly weren't friends.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I suppose if you - Archbishop Tutu had been the General Secretary, had he not, before Chikane had taken over?  It's a high profile position.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, high profile.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now according to Botha, and according to Barnard, there was a plan according to the one, of monitoring him and the other, a plan to murder him.  Now this is contained in documents before this Committee, in B 4 and B121.  I will not read the passages out Mr Chairman, I'm going to give you the references.  Now if he was monitored, for what purpose would Region 6 monitor him?

EDWARD WEBB: Are you talking about Archbishop Tutu?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, no, Frank Chikane.

EDWARD WEBB: I have no knowledge of the fact that he was monitored, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, the question was - but you know, you're the Head of the CCB, you've got to take some vicarious responsibility for what your men say they did.  The one says that he was being monitored and the other one says that he was being monitored for the purposes of being murdered.  Assume that that evidence is repeated here because it's in these documents, if that is so, what were the men under you doing, monitoring firstly or monitoring for the purposes of murdering Frank Chikane?

EDWARD WEBB: I have no knowledge of the monitoring of Frank Chikane, I can't answer you.  Ask them.

GEORGE BIZOS: If that did happen, is this another instance of Verster not having come to you?

EDWARD WEBB: He didn't have to come to me for monitoring, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: In order to murder Chikane?

EDWARD WEBB: If it was murder, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now for what purpose would the CCB monitor high profile enemies of the apartheid State, other than for the purposes of doing them some harm?  If not murdering them, breaking their windows or poisoning their clothing or doing them - for what purpose would the CCB monitor somebody?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know anything about the monitoring of Frank Chikane, so I can't answer you.

GEORGE BIZOS: The people in Region 6 were mainly people from Brixton Murder and Robbery and we were told by van Zyl that they had no experience in information gathering and if anything, information had to be gathered by another structure in order for decisions to be made.  I ask you again, as Chairman of the CCB, why would people of the CCB be monitoring Frank Chikane, for what purpose?

EDWARD WEBB: Once again I'm saying, ask that question to the members who had their order to do the monitoring, ask them why they had to do it.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want you to presuppose this, that ...(intervention)