Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Oscar Motlokwa, how old are you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?

MR MADASA: How old are you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was born in 1963 on the 23rd of May, I'm now 34 years old.

MR MADASA: How far did you go in school?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Standard six Sir.

MR MADASA: Presently, are you in prison?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I'm in prison Sir.

MR MADASA: Is that in regard to this offence or something different?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It's not this case, it's another case for which I've applied for amnesty.  I think I've now two years after I applied for amnesty for this case.  I've been sentenced for 20 years for that particular case.

MR MADASA: You've said the case that you are serving you've also applied for amnesty for, is that what you said?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, the case I've been sentenced for I've applied for amnesty.

MR MADASA: Okay.  Were you a member of the self defence unit at some stage?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: Which year did you become a member?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: As from 1991.

MR MADASA: Did you have a particular role that you played in the SDU structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: What was it?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: My position was an operator Sir.

MR MADASA: What is an operator?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was working with a gun, meaning that I was shooting.

MR MADASA: Can you explain that?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that you were working with a gun and you were shooting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The operator is a person who has been trained to handle a gun and therefore protect the community.

MR MADASA: Were all members of the SDU at that time operators?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir not all of them.

MR MADASA: Who were operators together with you amongst the applicants present here?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was myself, Kenny, I don't know his full name, he's in Johannesburg prison and Koos Mthembu and Shongwe.

MR MADASA: The one who is in prison, is it Michael Armoed or is it Ntomo who is apparently not an applicant?  Is it Michael Armoed or Ntomo?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That's Armoed Sir.

MR MADASA: How did you become operators, the four of you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We were trained how to handle a gun, how to shoot and then how to protect the community.

MR MADASA: My question really, did you volunteer or were you elected to become an operator?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: SDU's were formed by the community from ex-members of MK so at to protect the community

MR MOTALA: Mr Motlokwa, I suppose counsel's question is: "When the community approached you, did you apply or the community itself came to you to say: we want you to be part of the SDU's or operators", to use your terminology?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The community requested that we should be members of the SDU's then later we volunteered to be members of the SDU's.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone approach you to become a member of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I volunteered Sir.

MR MADASA: Did you also volunteer to become an operator, to handle a gun?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, even to be an operator I volunteered Sir.

MR MADASA: Who trained you as operators?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That's Julius Gadebe who is an ex-member of MK, he's now deceased.

MR MADASA: What was your source of the firearms which you used?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The money to buy guns came from the community, every house was contributing R30.

MR MADASA: Did the community willingly donate this money or was it coerced?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they were not coerced, they were contributing those monies through street committees.

MR MADASA: Who would then collect the money when it was put together by the street community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The money was collected by the street committees, then the street committees will give it to zonal committees and zonal committees would take it the SDU's.

MR MADASA: At the SDU level, who was responsible to keep the money?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The money was given to the treasurer.

MR MADASA: Who was that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Our treasurer was Sugar, he has since died.

MR MADASA: Who would then go and obtain the firearms and from where?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Guns were bought by the sectional commander and the zonal commander, those were the people responsible for buying the guns but we did not where.

MR MADASA: Who was the custodian of the guns after they had been purchased?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The person who was responsible for that was the commander.

MR MADASA: You mean the sectional commander?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: Who was that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That's Ntjebe Ndondolo.  The spelling for Ndondolo is N-D-O-N-D-O-L-O.

MR MADASA: Now explain the procedure of the issuing of the guns by the sectional commander to the operators,  when would they be issued, under what circumstances?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The sectional commander would issue guns to the SDU, to operators at the time of the patrol.  The AK47 would - we were given guns when we were going to do the patrol then they would count the bullets.  Should I continue?
	If you have used particular bullets you should come and account to the commander why did you shoot.

MR MADASA: Sorry to interrupt you.  Now, during the patrols, was there any senior person, a commander or somebody like that who was the overseer of patrols?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: During the patrol we would be led by the section commander so that he will be able to see what's happening and then at the end of the day he will be responsible.

MR MADASA: Did you have a register of these arms and ammunition?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we had a register.

MR MADASA: Who kept it?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was kept by Vuzi Mthembu.

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, I'm sorry Mr Madasa, the Vuzi Mthembu you referred to, is he one of the applicants?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That's so Sir.

MR MADASA: How many operators would conduct the patrol at a given time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: At a particular time we would be three at night and then there would be those who patrolled during the day.

MR MADASA: Who would patrol at night and during the day and what was the criteria for that choice?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I'll start with those who were patrolling at night.  It was comrade Rooivark who is in Johannesburg prison, myself and Shongwe including the commander.

MR MADASA: And the question is, why you at night?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We were patrolling at night because the enemy was coming at night.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel is trying to find out from you is, was there any specific reason why you and your colleagues had to patrol at night and not during the day.  Do you understand the question.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I understand the question now.  The reason for us patrolling at night is because we were working - during the night and those who were patrolling during the day were not working.

MR MADASA: Did the ANC as an organisation, issue you with firearms for the purposes of these patrols?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir the ANC did not give us guns.

MR MADASA: Was the ANC aware that you had guns?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The sectional community knew that we had guns.

MR MADASA: Sectional what?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sectional committee of ANC, yes.

MR MADASA: What was the relationship between you as SDU's and the civic?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we had an association with the civic.

MR MADASA: How did you co-operate with each other?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We would meet the civic if we are running short of ammunition, maybe if the police have taken one firearm, then we would ask the community to replace that gun.

MR MADASA: Was the civic an ANC structure or not?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: A civic is an independent structure from ANC, it is for all citizens of a particular community.