Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am talking about Mr Posiwa in particular.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No I cannot remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He also gave evidence that when you pulled out the hair from his body, it has now been alleged from Ms Mtanga that he will say actually the hair pulled out was from his private parts, that blood actually came out from the hair roots.  Do you remember witnessing such an incident?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to Mr Posiwa I cannot remember, but I think with regard to Mr Poswana I pulled his hair.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  You didn't pull Mr Posiwa's hair?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well what I can remember is only with regard to Mr Poswana who had long hair and long beard.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, he actually says you pulled hair from all over his body.  It wasn't because his hair was longer or anything.  Did you or did you not do that?  If you can recall doing that to Mr Poswana surely you should be able to recall whether you did the same thing with Mr Posiwa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I didn't do that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When Mr Posiwa was assaulted was Mr Ramaligela present?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes he was with me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you recall how many times, or how many days it took you to interrogate Mr Posiwa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It could have taken two days during the interrogation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you remember over how many minutes or hours each session lasted during those two days?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I don't want to lie, I can't have a direct estimation as to how many hours.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In the absence of Mr Ramaligela was it common practice for you to report to him of what you would have done to the suspects whilst he was away?  Would you give a report to him as your immediate superior?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I will give a report if we had seen something very suspicious in regard to the investigation.  That was only the time when I would be able to do that.  I don't remember what I did in his absence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you report to Mr Ramaligela with regards to the methods of torture that you would have used in his absence when conducting interrogations of suspects in particular the ones referred to in paragraph 15?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No, I don't remember doing that.  I didn't report that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You didn't make any reports to Mr Ramushwana did you?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No I didn't.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Those were left to your immediate superior who was Mr Ramaligela, am I correct in assuming that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: If we had discovered any other thing we would inform Mr Ramaligela but I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela was your immediate superior, am I correct in assuming that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Managa do you know that Dean Farisani was taken to the doctor?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I am quite aware that he was taken to the hospital.

ADV BOSMAN: And are you aware of the fact that it was as a result of the assaults?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It could be possible.

ADV BOSMAN: But why do you think he was taken to the doctor?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is due to the report that I could not be able to see, he could have been taken to the hospital because of that.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you think that any of the other persons who had been assaulted was in need of medical attention, because you testified that they were "heavily assaulted"?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: If they were badly injured then they deserved medication, they could have been sent there.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if you look at paragraph 49 on page 64 of your statement Mr Managa why did you say there were no serious injuries or necessity to receive medical treatment?  Do you have it on page 64, paragraph 49.  You see it reads there
"I respectfully submit that none of the assaults were all serious.  As mentioned before there was never any blood, serious injuries or necessity to receive medical treatment".
Why did you say that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well it is due to my own judgement, the way I had an observation on the appearance, well I just assumed that they didn't deserve any medication.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't really follow your evidence now because I've put it to you that you said they were seriously assaulted.  I asked you whether they were in need of medical attention and you conceded that they were and now you say you did not think so.  It's confusing.  Can't you clarify that?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Let me say as we were dealing with them, assaulting them, if they didn't complain through their station commander we will deal with the person considerably if they demanded that we will be able to say through the special commander these persons are complaining then they will be taken to the hospital. That was permissible.  If they didn't complain then there was no need.  I can't say anymore than that.

ADV BOSMAN: From your own observation, from your own observation, thinking back and taking into account the manner in which they were assaulted objectively seen do you think they were in need of medical attention?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes in my judgement I think they deserved medication.

ADV BOSMAN: So I will put the question again in a different way.  Why did you say that there were no serious injuries and that it was not necessary for them to receive medical attention?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Because these people were not really beaten in such a way that they were so swollen, evidently swollen, we will just clap them only.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take that any further.  Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Flowing from what my colleague has just put to you I am quite intrigued by your testimony.  You say you wrote that these people did not necessitate to receive medical treatment because there were no visible injuries and they didn't complain to your superiors.  You go on at paragraph 42 to state, as a fact, that no person was ever seriously assaulted.  Interestingly, however, during your testimony you kept on stating that these people were severely beating.  I am quoting you verbatim when you were stressing the fact that you did not assault Mr Mahamba and that you do not recall having assaulted Mr Mahumela you conceded that you knew about the others because they were severely beaten.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well what I am admitting is that people like Farisani, Poswana, Posiwa were really severely beaten by me but I don't remember anything - although we did beat them if when being visited at the cells and it was reported that they were sick they would be taken to the hospital. But because they didn't really complain as far as their injuries were concerned well we were just investigating, we just carried on with our deed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes I am aware of the fact that because they didn't complain you didn't take them to hospital.  You, however, were aware then that you had severely beaten them.  When you completed this application form which required you to disclose the truth of your participation in relation to those assaults, you stated as a fact that they were not seriously assaulted when you knew that you had severely beaten them.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to bare hand slapping one will really remember, but it may be possible that it was an internal injury.  However what really surprised me was that they didn't complain.  They didn't deserve any hospitality ...(intervention)