Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now, your evidence, and please stop me if I am wrong, was that you were taken to the kitchen in Fountain Street, in that building, on a certain floor you were taken to the kitchen.

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you were later fetched from the kitchen?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you told the Committee that the person who fetched you was Mr Tsoametsi, T S O A M E T S I?

MS JACOBS: That is so.

MR VISSER: And you told the Committee that you were taken to the office of Mr Erasmus?  Have I got that right?

MS JACOBS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you then said,
"All of them in the room ...",
and you specified Mr Tsoametsi, Mr Motsamai and Mr Erasmus and yourself.  You were the persons in that room.  Is that correct?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.  Mr Tsoametsi fetched me from the office, from the kitchen to the office, then he left.

MR VISSER: Oh.  So, Tsoametsi fetched you, he left and who remained in the office with you then?

MS JACOBS: I remained with Motsamai, Erasmus and I do not remember others. I remember only these two.

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) that there were others who and you cannot remember who they were or that there, that you cannot remember whether there were others?

MS JACOBS: They were there, but I forgot their names, because I was scared.

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) or two or more other people?

MS JACOBS: Other than Motsamai there was somebody else that I do not remember who that person is except Motsamai and Erasmus.

CHAIRPERSON: One other person you say?

MS JACOBS: I was between Motsamai and a certain person who was on the right-hand side together with Erasmus.  I do not remember others.

MR VISSER: Now, now, what you said in your evidence is, and please rectify it if I am wrong, you said you were clapped and slapped.

MS JACOBS: Yes, I was slapped.

MR VISSER: And you said, you were asked
"Who did this?",
and you said,
"All in the room".
Do you remember that?

MS JACOBS: I said I was blind-folded after I have been asked two or three questions, then thereafter I was assaulted, but the first person I remember who (...indistinct) me first is Boysi or Mr Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Well, you see, that is what I thought you meant to say, because it seems to me, with respect, that if you were blind-folded you would not know who was assaulting you and I think you said that in your evidence in-chief and that being so, I want to put a few statements to you.  First of all, how can you, or put a few questions to you.  If you were blind-folded how can you say that the first person who assaulted you was Mr Motsamai?

MS JACOBS: Let me explain it this way.  For the first time I was given a chair, I was between Motsamai and a certain person whom I do not remember.  Erasmus asked me few questions, thereafter, let me tell you the question.  He said who said you should skip the country and where were you going?  I told them that we were going, where you know that where we were going.  They, they said who influenced me.  They said who was the driver of the kombi, then I said I do not know him.  Then I was slapped and they said I should not, I would not go with somebody I do not know.  I only remember Boysi.  Then thereafter I was blindfolded, then the assault continued.

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) explained it now, but in other words, Motsamai, Boysi as you can call him, slapped you before you were blind-folded?  Is that what you are now saying?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You were then blind-folded?

MS JACOBS: Then thereafter I was blind-folded.

MR VISSER: Incidentally, just to make it absolutely clear.  At the time you could still see, because there was nothing wrong with your eyesight, apart from the fact that you then became blind-folded.  Have I got this right?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I was not blind.

MR VISSER: How can you then say that, well, I think you have changed that and let me just be fair to you.  So, you cannot say to this Committee, with certainty, that everybody in the room, that was with you in the room did, in fact, participate in an assault on you?  You cannot say that?  I think that is what you conceded today.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not what she said in her evidence in-chief?

MR VISSER: I am not sure Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: It is not the ...

MR VISSER: ... that is why I am asking.

CHAIRPERSON: My note is, I do not know who assaulted me.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR STANDER: That is my recollection as well.

MR VISSER: I have learnt my lesson not to work on my own notes, I am working now on the notes of my attorney, Mr Chairman, that is why I asking the question the way I do.
	Now, I want to put to you that I have just spoken to Mr Tsoametsi and he says that he cannot remember fetching you from the kitchen and taking you to the Mr Erasmus' office.

MS JACOBS: Mr Tsoametsi was present, he was insulting us through our mothers and saying where we were going and he insulted us with and even the time when people were taken individually Mr Tsoametsi said I should go to that room. I was in that room which he pointed me to go to that room.  He directed me to that room which I entered in to.

MR VISSER: All right.  The next point I want to put to you is that Mr Erasmus will deny that he was there, that he had anything to do with the interrogation of any of the members of that group to which you are referring.

MS JACOBS: He would not agree, I did not expect him to agree.

MR VISSER: On how many days were you taken to Fountain Street Building?

MS JACOBS: You mean after our arrest?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS JACOBS: I do not remember.  I do not remember, Sir.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, may I just put one question to this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct).

MR BRINK: No, but in the light of what I was going to put to a previous witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

MR BRINK: Ms Jacobs, do you remember what Mr Erasmus looked like?  Was he a tall man, a short man, a thin man or a fat man?

MS JACOBS: He is a short person, his body was just normal or average.

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, you have got a busy night before you, so I think we had better adjourn now to let you get started with it.

MR VISSER: I would certainly appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until nine o' clock tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS