Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-10

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, I'm going to ask some questions of Shirley Mabija now, so if you could make sure the microphone is very close to you - pull it very close.  Ja there's lots of room - you are  Shirley Mabija.  Again a very warm word of welcome to you,  I know it's not easy.  Perhaps you would tell us what you remember about those times.  Sorry could you put the light on.
MS

MABIJA: I remember the 7th of July 1977 I was with the adults and the children at home and the two policemen Oscar Ntsiko and Du Plessis they came inside the house with Phaki.  I don't remember the colour of their car and Phaki came and having the looks of being beaten up and he didn't have his spectacles on, and he didn't have his belt on his pants as well.  And I didn't hear him saying anything  because he was not clear in his speech.  The got inside with him and they lifted up the carpet not knowing what he was looking for and they went in the bedroom with him.  And then I came in and asked him and I said "Phaki, would you like a cup of tea?" And Oscar said to me "Wie het gese ons soek tee?" at that time they went out with him and they turned ack at the gate and came back to the house and then they said to him "Groet jou mense want jy gaan nie vir hulle weer sien nie.  After that they left with him and that was the last time I saw Phaki alive.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, did they find anything in the cupboard or in the room?

MS MABIJA: No, they found nothing.

DR BORAINE: When they said you must greet your family because you will never see them again, in what language was that said?
MS

MABIJA: Afrikaans.

DR BORAINE: And can you remember - I know it's  a long time ago so think carefully - can you remember who exactly said that?
MS

MABIJA: It was Du Plessis but I'm not to sure but I think it was Du Plessis.  And Oscar was also speaking.  I don't know what Oscar said but I know that Du Plessis did say that.  I was looking at Phakamile and because of doing so I didn't have much time to listen to what the policemen were saying because I became sick when I looked at Phakamile's face.

DR BORAINE: Of course I can well understand that.  You mentioned Oscar, is that Oscar Ntsiko?
MS

MABIJA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, when did you hear about Phaki's death?
MS

MABIJA: I heard in the afternoon after my sisters came in as they told me they have met someone who told them.  And this person said to them that Phaki died after he fell at Transvaal Road.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, what happened after that was there an inquiry or an inquest or  [indistinct]   Did you attend the inquest?
MS

MABIJA: There was an inquest, we were taken I can't remember how many days after - it was on Monday or after the funeral I can't remember but we were taken myself and Sis Ntsiki, we were taken to Transvaal Road.  We were interviewed there.  I can't tell which floor was it which policemen was it - I can't remember at all because we just get in the building - you don't even know which floor you are going or where you are going, they are watching you whereever you go and they ask you that you must - dan praat - praat - praat dan moet jy net praat.  Nou ek kan rerig nie verstaan nie, ek kon nie se watter vloer was ek of wat nie.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, I asked your sister about your brother.  Do you want to add anything at all about who - what sort of person he was and particular do you know if he was involved with any political party.  Did he attend party meetings, was he working for someone?
MS

MABIJA: Because I was a sick person Phaki said to me Sisi I'm in Christian, I'm not sure, Youth.  We want to go to Pietermaritzburg before he got arrested and he said to me Sisi don't you want go with us so that we can have a rest so that your mind can reg? And I know him as a teacher he was an elder at the Catholic Church.  He was a Scouts Commissioner.  He was everything and he was a good boy.  He was helping the orphan children within the family -  our uncle's children - uncle's children who don't have uniform - he used to buy uniform and open up accounts for them and buy for everybody - he had a good heart.  I don't know about politics, I really don't know I'll be telling lies.  I don't know if he was in politics I don't whether was it a PAC or an ANC I don't know a thing.  I only know him as an ordinary child - a good child -  who listened to his parents - an even though he was young I used to listen to what he was telling me - I took him as an adult although I was older than him.

DR BORAINE: Thank you - thank you very much, that's very helpful.  I just - can you remember if you think back now did the police ever say why they were taking your brother or  what did they accuse him of  because he was obviously never tried - he was detained like so many other people but did they ever say any thing about why?
MS

MABIJA: They never told us why they arrested him.  Even today I want to know why did they arrest him - what did he do  - because I don't understand why did they arrest him?  I really don't know and I want to know?  Even today, its years and years but I don't understand why did they arrest him and I want to know why did they arrest him?  I want to know the reason why?  Because I can not wake him in the grave and ask him Phaki what did you do why were you arrested?  Because I don't know him as a criminal - I know him as a child a good child who was listening to his parents - I don't know I can't even say -even when we were young at home - when we were young and if we don't want to go to school - and we were naughty, we sometimes werer naughty but Phaki was straight forward the rest of his life, he was well behaved.  We used to get out of the way sometimes, Phaki was not like that even in the township nobody can say that Phaki did a bad thing - or if he stole something or beat somebody's child or stab anyone - I don't know I also want to know why he was arrested?

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much and thank you for your help.  I'm going to ask Henrietta Manzana just a few questions now.  Ms Manzana you are a witness, not a member of the family but a friend of the family and can you tell us  I understand that you were actually working at the Transvaal Road Police Station where Phaki was being held.  Tell us what happened and what you saw on that day.

MS MANZANA: I saw Phaki coming from upstairs - I first took food to him and Oscar said I must put it down and I had (indistinct) water he was shaking and said I must put it down he will eat when he comes back - when he comes back from (indistinct) when he came back I saw Phaki went through the window - they never brought him to me and they only brought him to me knowing that I am his grandmother - Maynard (indistinct) is my sister's child at Empangeni - his mother's name is Mary-Jane Nomaramba - they never told me that my sister's child has come back - we will kill him now - we just saw him flying from on top (indistinct) when I was sending tea to Maynard - kyk daar is my kind hy val af - I went down trying to save him  so that he can fall on top of me - I couldn't save him.  I went to him and once said "get off there" and said "I won't get off you can shoot me if you want to"  Oscar said on top you must die you dog Oscar Ntsiko said you must die you dog.  He stays in (indistinct).

DR BORAINE: Thank you, that's a very painful memory, I want to just ask a couple of question.  Ms Manzana where were you when you saw Phaki coming - falling from the window?  Where were you - inside the building, which floor were you?  Were you outside, where were you?

MS MANZANA: I was on the third floor making tea. (indistinct)

DR BORAINE: And which floor was he when you saw him last?

MS MANZANA: Seven.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, do you want to add anything at all?