Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: I think it was Ralakolwana, but he explained to us that he does not work for the Government and he did not want to help us.  He said we were supposed to be helped by the Government doctor.  He told us he can just examine me and help me.  He gave me an injection and some medicine.  I never went back to that doctor for a statement because he refused.  He said this issue was to be tackled by the Government doctor.  That is all.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You are talking about the King who was from Tafelkop?  Did I hear you well, Sir?

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: Yes.
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THOMAS MANTHATA: What was he doing in Tafelkop?

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: He went there because the people of the Ndebele did not want him.  They just chased him.  He ran away because the people wanted him.  He spent some few days there.  When they came looking for him he went into hiding so they could not find him there.

THOMAS MANTHATA: After you were arrested did you come back and see the King when you came back?

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: We just heard from the people that people came to fetch him, after we were arrested, that they took him back to Tafelkop.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You also said that when you were arrested you heard people in Kwagga saying that four people were killed.  Who was staying in Kwaggafontein?  Was it the Bantwani tribe or the Ndebele tribe?

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: It was both the Ndebele and the Sotho people and these people went there to kill the other people who were not Ndebeles.

THOMAS MANTHATA: We also heard you saying that there was a time when the Bantwani tribe, the Bantwani Royal kraal and the Sotho family did not have the power anymore to control the community.  At that time did you understand what was happening?  Why were you arrested?  Did you understand that these people were not sent by the Ndebele tribe to come and arrest you?

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: No, we did not understand anything because we were threatened and we were just taken unaware.  We were not informed and when we were questioned that why were the Ndebele youth burning the properties, we could not answer them so we were just confused.  When they took us and beat us up we did not know who those people were.  We did not
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know if they were from the Royal kraal or from the Ndebele.  We did not know if they were from the Ndebele Government actually.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I want to close by saying that the witness that we heard shows that all this conflict showed that it was not from the Bantwani tribe and the Ndebeles.  This is a lesson to all of us and to the Ndebele tribe that we should all come together and be one nation, be able to sit down and talk and solve all our problems because it shows clearly that you did not know what was happening.  You were not informed and you did not even tell the youth to burn all those things.  Is it all clear?

MMUSI MOSES MATHEBE: I do not agree with what you were saying.  When you are saying that we can sit down and talk, both tribes because we were hurt.  Some of our people died and some are crippled.  So when you are saying we can talk and solve the conflict, I do not understand.  I want you to go on and investigate these issues.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What I am trying to say is that the message that I am conveying to you was from King Mayisha.  I do not have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?  Anymore questions.  Mr Mathebe, thank you very much.  I also want to stress that we all wish to have peace, that we all want to have reconciliation.  This does not mean that there were no people who were hurt in the past.  If all this conflicts were taken to the Court of Law we would not be given this chance in the Commission to be here or all the nation were not going to be given the chance to be free because, as you can remember, before the elections of 1994 there were bomb threats and there were people who were killed all over the
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country.  Many people were killed and it is only because of unity and because of the negotiations amongst the politicians that we are here now and there was unity amongst them.  That is why they formed a Commission like this where all people could sit down and talk and reveal all that happened in the past.  Not that we are denying the fact that people were hurt in the past, but our main objective is that people should all have peace.  We understand that you had lots of problems and our main aim is that we should all be one nation and get together as the nation.

THOMAS MANTHATA: We all like that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you and we understand what you are saying when you say that you were hurt, you were beaten up.  We all understand that you are hurt and that you were grown up people and it was young people who were assaulting you, but they did that, but we now here today.  We survived all that and we are changed.  It all happened.  You are the bricklayers who helped us to build this building and we thank you.  Thank you.
 Let me explain to people.  There are so many people who gave us statements, but not all the people who give us a statement are going to testify in a Commission like this.  Only a very few people will be allowed to testify and the statement is something that is very much important.  Everything, we view it on the basis of the statement and a person shall not get angry because the statement is not testifying.  They do not want to appear on television.  That we find from 200 people.  All 200 people cannot testify.  Do not panic, do not think that we have thrown away your statements.  The statement is the most important source and we are going to use these statements, your story will appear MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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on a report which we are going to send to the State President or recommendations we are going to make to the State President.  Please do not feel painful because the statements are the most important source which we are going to use.  
 If there are people around here in this hall who want to give their statements, we do have statement takers inside the hall who are going to take those statements from you.  They are waiting at the back of the hall.  If you have a statement which you want to give you can go and give them that statement.  Do you get what I say?  It seems as if you do not agree with me.  I am not going to allow you to go and have lunch.  We are going to close the door and you are going to stay here in this hall.  Please, try to understand, because many people say that the TRC have thrown away my statement.  No, that is not a position.  
 Once you give us a statement we select some few people who are coming to give, to testify, who are going to give us different kinds of the violations of human rights which they experienced.  Thank you very much.  Russel, my son.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you your Grace.  Your Grace ...
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