Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

JOHN DAVID HARE: There may be a particularly simple answer, you know you've posed the question, you posed the question to me originally and I sent you to the  people who I believe had information that could have assisted you.  If you're saying that the information they gave you was incorrect, please pose the question to them again.

DR KLATZOW: I'm going to do that.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm unaware of that.

DR KLATZOW: I'm going to.  But what I'm trying to deal with, with you, is to suggest to you that the way in which they answered my question was to divert me from my investigation rather than to give  me information.  And I'm asking you if you can think of a reason why they would want to do that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Let me be very categoric Dr Klatzow, I believe that everybody within SAA, from the time that the Helderberg accident occurred through to the present day would go out of their way to assist you in finding the cause of the fire that was on board the Helderberg.  I think that nobody who sits within the airline would have any interest other than doing that. I cannot answer as to a particular question that you posed to an individual.  I would put it to you that you didn't come back to me at that stage and say, Mr Hare what is the problem, these guys are giving me information that I cannot regard as being accurate.

DR KLATZOW: There's a reason that I didn't come back to you because in fact I had the information in my hands at the time that SAA was on a regular basis transporting military ordinance from Israel to South Africa, there was a to and fro traffic and if SAA chose to deny that, that was their problem.  May I also tell you, for your information that Deon Storm who is also a pilot with SAA had exactly the same experience.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Thank you.

DR KLATZOW: Okay.  Now I want to deal with another issue.  Armscor is primarily involved in the production of military ordinance and matters closely related to military ordinance.  I mean they don't make civilian hairdryers for instance?

JOHN DAVID HARE: They certainly don't make civilian hairdryers to my knowledge.  They do make a range of civilian equipment.  They make a range of items that have been, could quite probably be derivatives from some military product.  They certainly operate in areas of commercial expertise and commercial competitively.

DR KLATZOW: But you don't make a range of commercial products that would be household items.  You don't make heaters and hairdryers and toasters and things of that nature?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I've indicated to you a thought that there are a number of items which may well be defined as commercial products.

DR KLATZOW: No, but I've given you specific ones.  Hairdryers in particular.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm certainly not aware of any manufacture of hairdryers.

DR KLATZOW: Are you aware that there is a cargo control man, a senior man called Mike Van Niekerk at Singapore Airport?

JOHN DAVID HARE: To the best of my knowledge Mr Van Niekerk was the station manager at Singapore.

DR KLATZOW: That's correct.  And are you aware that he was asked by a senior member of SAA during a visit there whether the Armscor shipments were going okay?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm not aware of that.

DR KLATZOW: And his reply was, yes they are and they're still being shipped out as hairdryers.

JOHN DAVID HARE: If I'm not aware of it I couldn't be aware of the response, could I?

DR KLATZOW: The point that I'm trying to make is that we know that South Africa has a murky past.  We know that arms dealers are not angels in terms of that murky past and we know that there was a holy war that was being fought in this country and that Armscor was part of that holy war.
 And I want to put it to you that there would be no inhibition whatsoever on Armscor's behalf in doing whatever they needed to do to make that war work.  And I want to suggest to you further that material that was brought in aboard the Helderberg was destined for Armscor because the stuff that was in the palate PR on the front of that aircraft was incapable of producing the fire which destroyed the aircraft and that the material that was aboard that aircraft was mis-declared and was in fact destined for Armscor and that it was that material which caused the loss of the Helderberg.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow I'm not in a position to comment on your statement.

DR KLATZOW: I have only one last question.  About, shortly after you joined SAA, a member of the operational staff, a member of staff of SAA had an altercation with you.  And that altercation involved, shaking his hand in your face and saying, you know what is aboard the Helderberg.  Do you remember that altercation?

JOHN DAVID HARE: No I don't.

DR KLATZOW: Do you deny that it ever happened?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I don't recall the incident.

DR KLATZOW: Did none of the staff members of SAA, a pilot in particular ever shake his hand in your face and say, Mr Hare you know what was aboard the Helderberg?  I'm not suggesting you did but I'm suggesting that that incident took place.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow you're in an, asking a question, I certainly have no recollection of any such incident ever taking place.

DR KLATZOW: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask the question.  When you say you have no recollection of the incident happening, are you saying the incident never happened?  Or are you saying it may have happened except that you now have no recollection of it, you don't remember?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Commissioner I do not wish to appear to be ducking the question or anything like that.  I certainly have no recollection of such an incident.  If somebody says that such an incident occurred and can quote me chapter and verse and the occasion on which it occurred maybe my recollection is incomplete.
 My own feeling is that there was not such an incident that took place but, really we're going back quite a number of years and I am certainly not aware of such an incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Klatzow, can you provide chapter and verse?

DR KLATZOW: I may very well be able to do that.  I don't have it with me at the moment but I have a note in my personal notes where that allegation was made but having said that, it is the kind of incident that would be difficult to forget, if it occurred to you.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow, the only comment that I would make at this stage is that you would appear to be indicating that there's some unusual reason as to why I was at SAA.

DR KLATZOW: No.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Certainly the press has taken us into that area with a whole lot of questions that have been posed to me as to why I moved employment and was in fact at SAA.  Now let me initially say that that statement is incorrect, there is no unusual reason for my being at SAA.  Had any such incident occurred, I'm pretty sure that I would have remembered such an incident, you know.  It would seem that the kind of incident that one remember from the way you describe it.

DR KLATZOW: I'm not suggesting anything untoward about the fact that the incident occurred.  I mean, the simple answer could be that the person involved may have been entirely mistaken and may have simply mistaken the fact that you had come from Armscor and implied a sinister reason for it.  He might have been totally off the wall.
 All I'm saying to you is, do you remember the incident?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I don't remember the incident.  I think that one has to accept that a lot of statements that were made concerning the incident, concerning the whole Helderberg situation were made under a vast amount of emotion.  There were a number of people, including goods friends of mine who were on board the Helderberg.
 I think that a statement made like that would, if such a statement was made was totally incorrect.

DR KLATZOW: I accept that.  Just one last question, did you know Mr Oslo?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I knew Mr Oslo.