Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

MR OBOSE: Were any questions posed to them maybe in the interim while you were waiting for Commissioner Nqoya?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, there were people who were asking questions from those officers.  They would respond, the officers would respond and nobody showed any or they didn't show that they were against this.

MR OBOSE: Was anyone refused the right to leave that meeting?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There was a chance for us to refuse permission because we were afraid that the commissioner would come back and see that the police were not all there and then he would then postpone the meeting for another day and we were against that because we were focusing on the elections at the time. We were not focusing on that meeting in particular, but we wanted everybody to be there so that when the commissioner comes back, according to his request, he would see all the police sitting there.

MR OBOSE: So the mood and the feeling was that this meeting has to decide this issue finally?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that's correct.

MR OBOSE: Now, did Commissioner Nqoya, you say he came back in the early hours of the morning.  Did he come back on his own or, okay, let me put it this way - naturally when the waiting you know drew on, did people get agitated to be in the hall?  I mean were the people saying let's go and look for him and why is he keeping us waiting here?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: As we could see that he was not coming back, because he said that he was going to have a meeting at 11 o'clock, we gave him time.   At about 1 o'clock we expected him to be at lunch.  After 2 o'clock people were sent to look for him and those people came back and said that he was coming back.  We waited and waited and after some time we sent other people and they came back again and said that they could not find him and we could see that those who were sent at the first time would go back after others and look for him because we saw him coming in.   The following day in the morning he was together with the police and the soldiers.

MR OBOSE: Did he explain as to why he had kept everyone waiting?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, he tried to explain even though he did not give a full report because he was scared.

MR OBOSE: He was scared to come back to the meeting.  Is that what you said?  He was scared to come back.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, he said that he was scared.

MR OBOSE: Did the meeting continue?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes the meeting continued.

MR OBOSE: Did he address the issues?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, he addressed the issues and we asked him firstly what were we supposed to do as the Ciskeian police because the Ciskei would be taken over by South Africa and we wanted to know when that was going to happen because we thought that when he was addressing us at the meeting he would include all those factors.  He would just say that is easy, I would do this and that.

MR OBOSE: Did he report back to you as to what happened at the meeting between him and Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No he didn't report to us.

MR OBOSE: Did soldiers attend this meeting or did they find their way to the Bisho police college?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The soldiers arrived in the morning, at about 4 o'clock in the morning.

MR OBOSE: Did they say why they were there?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: When they arrived they told us that they found out that Brig Gqozo had resigned because of what we did at the college, so they wanted to know whether they can join us or not because they also had their complaints.  We didn't take note of that, we just told them that we were preparing or we were building up our positions because they were close to Brig Gqozo, now that he has resigned they wanted to join us.

MR OBOSE: So they had not been sent to disrupt your meeting, according to them?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Some of them said that they were there to disrupt the meeting.  We then told them that they had no right to do that, they were not supposed to do that to us.

MR OBOSE: When did this first group of soldiers arrive, the one that told you that they'd been sent to disperse you?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: They arrived before 4, there were very few of them and then after we chased them away, a lot of soldiers then came and they were amongst us.

MR OBOSE: So the first group was chased away?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Okay.  And the second group is the one that wanted to join you, telling you that Brig Gqozo resigned?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The second group, they were the ones who asked to join us and then we didn't trust them because they were close to Brig Gqozo, they were his soldiers and when they said that they were going to join us we did not trust them, we just gave them seats and we told them how to sit amongst us, but we then found out that indeed they were there to join us.

MR OBOSE: Were there any reports maybe that were received during the course of the meeting about some build-up, military build-up around Bisho town, stadium etc or some military activity?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: As I've already said, the soldiers were under Brig Gqozo and our senior officers.   When the soldiers were complaining Brig Gqozo would call them as they were in the Tamaga area from the airport and all the villages in the Tamaga, they were under my area, and they were under me.  All the meetings, I would know about the particular meetings, if they had meetings at the airport.  When the soldiers had complaints they would be called in the meeting and then everything would be arranged and their meetings with Brig Gqozo I would observe them.

MR OBOSE: So you are saying now the police felt that Brig Gqozo was ignoring them, but attending to the soldiers?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That was not the only problem, he didn't care about the police and he was even getting assistance from the senior officers.

MR OBOSE: Now did this meeting at some stage come to an end?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The meeting came to an end the following day.  We left the college and we went to the Bisho stadium.  Some people went to the stadium but I was in the group that went somewhere else.  There were criminal cases that were under investigation.  Those cases were concerning some of the senior officers and Commissioner Nqoya was among those people who were under investigation.  There were those cases.  I left there with him and others went to their offices at Bisho but the meeting ended up at the stadium the following day.

MR OBOSE: Why did you have to go to the stadium?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There was a promise that said Brig Gqozo was going to address all the civil servants on that particular date at the stadium.  We were so united as the police.  All those things that were lacking were addressed.  After meeting at the college, we united and decided to go there together so as to meet with the other public servants at the stadium, to listen to Brig Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: Did he address the people, Brig Gqozo, that morning?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: As I've already explained, I left for the area commissioner's offices.  There were other police who went to the stadium.  I don't know whether he came or he didn't, but I did not go to the stadium.  When the people dispersed I was still at the commissioner's offices, I was not at the stadium.

MR OBOSE: Do you know people by the name of Henry de Wet  and Raymond Peter Simms?  Henry de Wet Oosthuizen and Raymond Peter Simms?

MR OBOSE: I know those white people, I saw them there.  Yes, I know them, they were policemen.

MR OBOSE: Were they commissioned officers, or not?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I used to see them among the Ciskei police.  I don't know anything about their ranks but I used to see them there.  We were not told anything about them.  We used to see them going in and coming out.

MR OBOSE: So they were not attached to any of the police stations in Ciskei that you know of?