Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR KNOETZE: Did you accept that, because they were allowed to go on their way?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, yes, the instruction was ANC/SACP alliance.

MR KNOETZE: If I understand it correctly, you didn't really try to hear their answers on these questions?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Could you please repeat the question?

MR KNOETZE: I assume that you did not specifically tried or made an effort to hear what the blacks who were stopped said?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I didn't listen to each and every word that was said, but what I did hear as what I said before, what the questions were and the answers which Chief Commandant Kloppers and Martin received.   With regards to the other vehicles, maybe they had nothing to do with the ANC/SACP alliance.

MR KNOETZE: But as you already indicated, you assumed, and in your, that you did not really hear the answers, but your assumption is made on the fact that Kloppers let them go?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I know that, that there were Inkathas who were stopped, but I cannot tell you exactly which vehicle that was.

MR KNOETZE: The point I'm trying to make, Mr Badenhorst, is that I find it quite strange that it was so important to find a target that you didn't pay specific attention?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, the questions were asked by Chief Commandant Martins, as well as Kloppers.   I left it up to them to find the appropriate target, considering they were the people who were asking the questions.

MR KNOETZE: But now, according to your version, you are going to commit a crime, you are going to kill somebody, but yet you do not make sure that the individuals you are going to kill do in fact belong to that specific political affiliation?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I was a soldier, I respected the ranks of my higher officials, and I did not doubt them.

MR KNOETZE: The ridiculousness of your answer is that you did not doubt them, but all you had to do was to listen there at the scene, all you had to do was listen, and the point is your answers indicate that you did not listen with attention?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I wouldn't say all the time, but I did listen.

MR KNOETZE: You see, Mr Badenhorst, the result of your evidence, and this coincides with that of my client, Mr Van der Schyff, it is that there was no question about you looking for a specific target of ANC/SACP affiliation people would then be shot, it was not part of the planning?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is not correct, Chairperson, why did we let some of the vehicles go?

MR KNOETZE: He would say that it was because they did not find illegal weapons with them, and that was your task, and that's how you testified in front of the committee before we had the tea adjournment, that on Martin's smallholding, Kloppers said that you're going to have a roadblock and that you're going to look for illegitimate weapons - please do not interrupt me - that was your task?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Are you finished?

MR KNOETZE: Yes, I'm finished.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I said that the revolution, and it was put to us clearly at the roadblock that the revolution was going to begin and we were "boere" and our enemies were the SACP/ANC alliance.

MR KNOETZE: But in your evidence you did not say that at Martin's smallholding a roadblock would be held, we are going to look for illegitimate weapons and we're also going to find appropriate targets which would consist of SACP/ANC alliance people and that we are going to kill them, it was never said.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: It was supposed to be have said at the roadhouse.

MR KNOETZE: What are you saying now?    Are you now saying to the committee that at the roadhouse it was said that, "Tonight we are going to kill SACP/ANC alliance people"?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: If I left it out, it's my mistake, but it was said to us at the roadhouse that the target would be the ANC/SACP alliance.

MR KNOETZE: If you now put it so pertinently, you're the first person who said that because no-one else did.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Well sir, that's how I understood it, because it's logical that the enemy of the "boer" were the ANC/SACP alliance, because it's them who threatened us.

MR KNOETZE: It's another problem that I have with your evidence, you said that at the roadhouse you were told the revolution starts, the time is ready, it's the real McCoy and the general wants to see bodies, but you never said that the general wanted to see bodies that same evening, that's not part of your evidence?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: As far as I can remember, my evidence was that the time was ready for the revolution to start.

MR KNOETZE: It would seem to me that those statements are very general statements which were made, it was never said that specifically tonight people had to be killed?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That was not our instruction.

MR KNOETZE: In any case, you already know that my client would deny that those things were said.   He'd also deny that it was said that the revolution would start, it was the real McCoy and the general would want to see bodies, it was not said.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is your client's evidence.

MR KNOETZE: It would seem as if the idea to kill people was one that was formed once you've already started the roadblock and now suddenly it was decided to kill people?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, sir, I don't agree with you.   At the roadhouse it was said that the revolution is going to begin, and what is a revolution other than to kill people?

MR KNOETZE: This is not coinciding with the evidence of Klopper himself, who said to the committee that according to his command structure, or that he would not always say what would be the task right until the last moment, and the task was held back up until Martin's smallholding and then that you would have a roadblock and that you would want weapons, and that's all?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, I do not agree with that.

MR KNOETZE: And my client will also say that the other groups of people who were stopped were not asked what their political affiliations were?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I do not agree, sir.

MR KNOETZE: But you can also not explain to the committee why you cannot remember what the answers were?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: The fact that we let some of them go, I think is a good enough explanation, it's because they were not ANC/SACP alliance people.

MR PRINSLOO: In all respect, he said that some of them were from Inkatha?

MR KNOETZE: Sorry, I did not hear the objection?

MR PRINSLOO: The evidence of the applicant is that he said that some of the people answered and said that they were belonging to Inkatha.

MR KNOETZE: That's true, but he couldn't hear all of them, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: With all respect, Chairperson, you have to take into regard that he stood at the chevron, you must take his position into consideration and maybe my learned friend is leaving that out, he's not stating what this applicant's position was.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, will you just allow me one moment please?   My instructing attorney has indicated to me, Mr Chairman, that I incorrectly put to this witness that it had never been said by Kloppers that they would shoot the people there that night already.  At page 385 of his evidence, in answer to cross-examination by my learned friend, Mr Dreyer, he said, "Already at the roadhouse, I told them that `Tonight is the real McCoy, our target group is ANC/SACP members, if we find them we will shoot them'", but even so, Mr Chairman, that is not the evidence of this witness in his evidence in chief.   I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOETZE