Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, although we had pretended to Shabalala that Ndaba had also been arrested, it was clear that he did not believe it.  These accusations  were of concern to Ndaba and he was concerned about his future.  On Thursday the 12th of July and before the instruction came that they should not proceed with arrests, after this instruction had been given to du Preez and the other members they had during the observation of Siphiwe Nyanda, also MK Kibusa, arrested him.  After what I'd heard it was necessary because he became aware that they were busy following him and observing him.  The arrest of Nyanda caused a chain reaction of arrests of other people who were already known to us.  These arrests became necessary for the persons would escape as soon as the news of Nyanda's arrest became known and as such on the 12th of June 1990 as far as I can recall, approximately 12 to 15 persons who were involved with Operation Vula, had been arrested.
	I informed Ndaba the evening of Nyanda and the others' arrests and he was visibly upset because of the news.  Because of these arrests which had taken place, I accompanied Gen Steyn on Friday the 13th to Pretoria for further information and instructions.  It was decided to establish a national investigative team which would be under the command of Col Zen de Beer from Durban.  The same day we returned from Pretoria to Durban.
	On my return from Pretoria I found that Ndaba was in a terrible state.  He was morbid and unsure of himself.  I spoke to Gen Steyn on Saturday the 14th of July and informed him.

MR VISSER: That is the 14th July 1990?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.  Gen Steyn told me to use any means to solve this problem.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the problem that you had to solve?

H J P BOTHA: The problem was Charles's unfortunate attitude and his uncertainty about his future and Ten Steyn told me to orientate him so as to satisfy him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sot the problem really was the uncertainty that was being experienced by Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson and at that stage it was supposed by both of us, this is Gen Steyn and I, that if Ndaba could not be brought to insight both he and Shabalala had to be eliminated.  Chairperson, I've already referred to this earlier.  During this incident and events Gen Steyn and I had walked a long path together since his arrival in 1986 and there were operations where he had given his approval, directly or indirectly of my actions and in matters which I have already applied for amnesty and there was a measure of rapport between the two of us, that we with few words, came to a decision without spelling out the detail as to what and where I did what I had done.  Consequently it was our realisation that if Ndaba could not be brought to other insights both he and Shabalala had to be eliminated.

MR VISSER: But what would happen if you had allowed him, or if you had released him while he was in this situation? what did you think?

H J P BOTHA: Firstly, if Ndaba was released he would immediately return to the structures and he could tell that he had been detained along with Shabalala by us.  He could tell of his own position that he was an informer for us and he could speak of knowledge that he had with regard to the infrastructures that they had established through which he had contact with us while he was in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Yes, you don't have to ...

CHAIRPERSON: We have difficulty understanding the evidence, because I got the impression that you're saying you felt, or Ndaba felt a bit uncertain of himself?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean, that he felt uncertain of himself?  Was he uncertain about what was his future with the Security people, or was he uncertain about something else?  What was he uncertain about?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I think it was the several options which were put to him over a few days.  Firstly, I asked him whether he would testify and he refused and when he heard about the further arrests it upset him even more and he judged his own position, how would he remain with us as an informer if these arrests of people had taken place and the finger would be pointed at him, so this all influenced him so that he was unsure about himself.

MR LAX: Why would there be a finger pointed at him specifically?  You guys had arrested Shabalala as well.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MR LAX: So why would the blame necessarily point at Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: If both Shabalala and Ndaba were released again and both tell their versions of the story, chronologically in order, then the finger would point directly to Ndaba.

MR LAX: We're not talking about Shabalala's release here, we're talking about Ndaba's release and it seems clear to me that in your mind the elimination of Shabalala had, that decision was well on the way to being made much earlier in this process by this stage you'd probably already made that decision, although you hadn't necessarily expressed it to anybody.  But Ndaba was a different kettle of fish according to your evidence so far.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.  Would Ndaba be released without him remaining under our care as an informer, then the possibility was that he would return back to the ANC and he would tell them that we had also taken Shabalala

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't he be retained as an informer?

H J P BOTHA: He could have been retained as an informer Chairperson, but the possibility that he could still talk if there were any inquiries with regard to Shabalala, and this could lead to an investigation of which we would be the focus of ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You chaps were so used to getting rid of people, by this stage you'd got rid of many, many people.  It's not a question, I mean Shabalala would have simply disappeared, Ndaba would have stayed in a sort of semi-disappeared state for a while, you would have worked out some cover story for him.  It just doesn't seem to gel in the same way some of the other stories.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.  Times had changed in 1990.  I've already said that Mr Mandela had been released and the government were already negotiating with the ANC and it was a critical stage of the negotiations and there were requests and instructions from police headquarters that we, at all costs, had to help the government maintain the high level to prevent incidents which could cause a problem in the negotiations, so these were all factors which we took into account during this process.

MR VISSER: In any event, I have pre-empted you somewhat.  You will eventually arrive at this aspect in detail.  Please continue at paragraph 52.

H J P BOTHA: During this meeting Gen Steyn informed me that in Pretoria on the 13th July.

MR VISSER: Please state the date.