Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-14

MR NGUBANE: So this operation was a joint operation between you as the Caprivian, the Inkatha members and the members of the police force?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, it is so.

MR NGUBANE: Now these members of the policemen, did they consist of the KwaZulu Police only, or the members of the South African Police also participated?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: What I can say is that at that time, if I'm not mistaken, they were still under the South African Police.

MR NGUBANE: And when you cleaned these areas, as you put it, can you be in a position to particularise certain houses that were destroyed and certain people that were injured or killed, or it was just a random attack in these areas?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: It would be difficult.  However, the people whose belongings were destroyed and who had lost their loved ones, they all know that they were killed by the IFP, whether there were houses were burnt, they know very well that it's the Inkatha who did that.

MR NGUBANE: At page 288, you refer to the incident, the BMW motor car incident, do you recall that incident?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us a bit more about that incident?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: What I can say is that here there is a certain IFP member, Mr Ngobo.  On this particular day he was working in Swaziland, it was his arrival and he was with other relatives, there were about four or five, I can't quite remember.
	When they were passing by (indistinct), but unfortunately it was the wrong time, there was a funeral going on the opposite direction, that was from Unit 4.  When they realised, when they saw the car and the bus, the driver was told to stop that car.  Then the bus actually was going the opposite direction, but the bus changed the lane and directed on it and stopped this car.   
	They alighted, because it was known that it was the IFP member's car, well known, and then that was killed and everybody who is in the car was killed and they were burnt.  Myself, I only knew when people came to tell me that there's a car that's on fire there, and indeed we rushed to the scene.  On our way, some houses were burnt and some people died on that particular day and some were injured, because that car was on the UDF stronghold.   
	When we arrived on that car, we can't see him.  Unfortunately, he was under the car, the car was actually on top of him, and everybody who was in that car was dead.

MR NGUBANE: Now you talk about the incident as the R25,00, where there was an attack, that's on page 292?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: What I can say, I will just reverse a bit, what I can say, on my arrival here at Mpumalanga, when I arrive I wasn't on good term with Comrade Mgeshle, then I withdrew.  He was the one then who was actually to proceed in his way.  after his death, I was then told by M Z Khumalo that there is a vacancy, I must just go and replace, and then I came back after his death.
	On my arrival, he had bodyguards and other people, other IFP members.  When I arrived at Sipumlabas, the bodyguards were there, and he explained to me that these people were given to me by Zakele to be my bodyguards.   In real fact, they are soldiers.  I'll just leave it there, but "These bodyguards, they were Zakele's bodyguards, now they have to be yours", and then I refused, I said "I don't need any bodyguards, no, I don't need them, I'll watch myself".   
	Thereafter, after a while, he called me and said, "These soldiers say they would like to see you", and then I went there at a place called Phulapon, and then I found them.  There was a certain person, major, of the military intelligence, and he explained me, he described me as I am, the training that I did at Caprivi and explained that he actually, he has called me, he's trying to make with relationship, and indeed the way he described and explained, there was nothing to refute or deny, and this person was not there, so he was saying all the correct things.   Then that's when that I realised that we will be helping each other.  
	Then I said, "It's fine", then I said to Mhlaba, "There's something fishy here", and then I said, "Oh, I see, there is something really indeed", and then he just acknowledged.  On our next meeting, it was in a hotel at Botha's Hill, we are the very same person, I think he did realise that I was suspicious about what he was saying, and then he called M Z Khumalo.  It was myself, Sipumlaba and Khumalo and this man, and then we discussed.   
	Then M Z said that "You must trust this man, I've been working with him for a long time".  That's how I (indistinct).  In all the violence here in Mpumalanga, it was this man, Philbury who was in charge and the other Major Terblanche.  What their function or duty was, to supply us with the information, I will just make a parable, that at Ward 9 and Ward 8 examples, I spoke to them, "No, there shouldn't be any soldier or police, I just want to clean Unit 3", and then they said, "No problem".   
	Indeed people from Unit 3, if they can tell the truth, there was no police, there was no soldier who came there.  The soldiers who were around were here at the police station and they were watching actually, others taking vigils had the vigil camera and... (intervention).

MR NGUBANE: So my understanding, Mr Lethuli, is that when you, after your contact with Mr Philbury and Terblanche, your attacks were co-ordinated with them so that the police could not be present at the scene where you were going to be attacking?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: It is like that.

MR NGUBANE: And the people would be left helpless in that area?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And then there was subsequently an attack at R25,00 is it correct?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us about that attack there?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: (Indistinct) happened, then we spoke to this man, this Philbury, let me just say Philbury, and then he said, "Just hang on, don't go to R25,00, I must actually take my people out first", and then we actually looked at each other, myself and Mlaba, "What is this man saying now?", and then he said he will tell us when to attack.
	Let me just explain, R25,00, it's a cottage belonging to Mr Mkize, who is a businessman at Georgedale.  He has cottages, have the name this R25,00, and when he actually, after stopping us, we actually stayed for a week and we were actually revising this issue, and I was actually telling Mlaba that, "You do hear what this man said, the people from Georgedale are the ones who are attacking, those are, the people are finishing me, it means the people who are finishing me are the people who are belonging to this man, because here at R25,00, that is where the Comrades meet, and those are the people who actually tell the Comrades to attack Sikumlaba, and these people would actually help the Comrades, and can you see now that who is actually behind all this?", and Sikumlaba then said, "Yes, I can see now.  Is there no other means to finish this violence?"  That's when we started contacting Boy Majola.  	However, that's also a long story, that's when we contacted Boy Majola.

MR NGUBANE: All right.  Now when you attacked at R25,00, were there people killed there?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: No, we didn't, that was cancelled, we just left it like that.

MR NGUBANE: And when you contacted Boy Majola, is the position that that's the time when you decided to contact the UDF people so that peace could be made in Mpumalanga?