Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 2000-10-09

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, Mr Chairperson, Mr Greyling spent the night with us and the following morning he left.  That day Mr Labuschagne only joined us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Sorry, Ms Coleridge.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.  You stated in your amnesty application, on page 24, you stated
"We waited and then identified the target as he sat talking to the people on the pavement."
Now was Labuschagne with you at that stage?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, he was in the vehicle with us Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: But then you stated that he said to stop because there were witnesses and lots of people around there.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: So at that stage he didn't tell you:  "Look, I know this."

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, he didn't.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what happened?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Then, as I stated Mr Chairperson, then after some time, it could be a minute or two, I can't recall the time span, the suspect, if we can put it as such, climbed into his vehicle and drove off.

MS COLERIDGE: And you could clearly see him?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes.  Yes we could clearly see him.

MS COLERIDGE: And Mr Labuschagne as well?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Continue.  And then?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: And we had to make like a U-turn because it was a double road and we followed him and met up with the same person and same vehicle about two to three blocks further, where he was outside his vehicle taking to another black male at that point in time.

MS COLERIDGE: And was that the time when you wanted to then eliminate him?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Where I said we must do a drive-by shooting, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what weapons did you have on you?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I had a 9mm beretta fitted with a silencer.

MS COLERIDGE: So did you all - was it just one person tasked to eliminate him, or who was going to do the actual shooting?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: The weapon wasn't mine.  The weapon was allocated to W/O Britz, but the job of the elimination was handed over to me.

MS COLERIDGE: And then at that stage, Labuschagne informed you that he was his informant.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at that stage, Mr Chairperson, he just said we must withdraw from that.  That's when we reported in by radio to Mr de Kock, who then abandoned the whole mission.

MS COLERIDGE: And then at which stage did he actually inform you?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Back at the hotel.

MS COLERIDGE: And who was all at the hotel?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: The same group here including Mr de Kock and Mr van Dyk, who were in the other vehicle.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you discuss the matter?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If I recall correctly, Mr Chairperson, I wasn't part of the discussion.  They were senior officers and they would sit and discuss.  It's only afterwards we heard that there was a dispute between the two members from the various branches.

MS COLERIDGE: And do you know if any follow-ups were made in relation to this?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I wouldn't know whatsoever.  Nothing whatsoever.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

MR MALAN: Ms Coleridge, was notice given to any of the implicated persons?

MS COLERIDGE: Yes, Chairperson, I can - shall I place it on record now?

MR MALAN: Please do.  We have Rorich...

MS COLERIDGE: It is de Kock, Dan Greyling, David Britz and Mr Labuschagne. In relation to the victim, we have contacted the ANC offices and requested whether they know of this MK Mdo, because we discovered that it was MK Mdo and then they'd given us the name George Mdo and we contacted him and he informed us that it wasn't him, or that, he probably  wouldn't know if an attempt was made, but in relation to him and Labuschagne, he said he didn't know him, so that's as far as we got in terms of the investigation, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Coleridge.  Yes, we'll just give Mr Rossouw an opportunity to take up his position.  He was still trying to clarify the other matter for us as well.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My apologies.  Due to the modern technology, I'm in the position to inform you Mr Chairperson, that Mr Eugene Fourie, let me first answer your question, Mr Chairman.  He's employed by the City Council of Johannesburg and his position there is an Asset Control Manager and it is that respect that he's involved in the audit and the figures for his department need to be lodged by Wednesday.  However, Mr Chairman, I've specifically asked him to again request or make the necessary arrangements to be here and he's just phoned me back and left a message that he will leave tomorrow morning at 7 o'clock on a bus and he'll be here at 10 past 12 tomorrow afternoon so that we can finish his application tomorrow.  Those are my instructions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you for your trouble Mr Rossouw.  Can you just give me a second, I just want to see if we can dispose of that aspect.  Oh, Mr Ngobe, has he disappeared?

MS COLERIDGE: I have his details and his cell number, but he must be in the building here, oh, there we go.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll just give him an opportunity to take up his position as well.  Yes, Mr Ngobe, Mr Rossouw has managed to make contact with Mr Fourie and Mr Fourie would be able to be here tomorrow afternoon.  Would it suit you if we were to deal with the matter at 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon?

MR NGOBE: Thank you Chairman.  I'd like to establish with my secretary to get on my diary if 2 o'clock will be suitable.  I'll request just two seconds to do...

CHAIRPERSON: Please do that.  We can carry on with something else in the meantime.  We'll appreciate it if you can assist us Mr Ngobe.

MR NGOBE: Thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright Mr Rossouw, have you got questions for the applicant, Mr Flores?

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Yes, I do.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Flores, first of all, I represent Mr Chris Mosiane, who was an askari at that time at Vlakplaas, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And he received his instructions directly from you?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Now a person as an askari, we all know what his description is.  Would he be in a position to question your authority or your orders?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: He would accept them and carried it out?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: You would expect that of him?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: You would also expect that of him?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: You've testified that you've handled these matters on a need to know basis.  Would you have divulged all the necessary information relating to where the instruction came from and the identification of the target to a person like Mr Mosiane?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Flores then my instructions are just to put to you on two aspects, now first of all Mr Mosiane will testify that he was not personally involved in the preparation of these Russian Cocktails.  You've testified that there were about 12 people involved.  Could it be that some other people were involved?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, he could be quite correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Now also, Mr Mosiane will testify that he was not involved or present when the surveillance was carried out.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is also possible.