Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR HLOPE: One particular day they - Djamile nearly killed me and Msizi was present together with other two males and my life was saved because I ran away at that stage.  Djamile sent Delisile to my place and Delisile is Djamile's maid and they asked Delisile to call me.  I went to Djamile's place and when I got to Djamile's place he called me into his house which was just below the office which was within the premises.
	When I got into that office, I saw some policemen, two White policemen who had some walkie talkies as well as guns and two other males who were unknown to me.  Msizi was present during that day and he told me that he had worked with Msizi for a long time and he wanted me to also join so that we could be one thing and be united.  
	He further said that he could see that I was scared.  He wanted me to take my ID and we could meet at Pinetown police station and I would get the two policemen, that is the White policemen, as well as the two other males.  I did not do that.  When I got out of the house - I was going up the stairs - I told Msizi that I wasn't going to do that, why doesn't he use his own children, why does he want to use us.
	I was not going to do that, I was not going to collaborate with him in whatever he wanted us to do.  These policemen were driving a blue XR6, they waited for until 2 o'clock and I think Msizi went back to report that I did not want to collaborate with them.
	At about 1 a.m. during the night I was having a fight with Msizi and I saw some guys at night who were wearing coats and whilst we were having an argument they took out their guns and they said that I should take them to Djamile's place and I should not look back.  
	We went to Djamile's place and when I got into his yard, Djamile saw me and asked as to whether they got me.  It was very apparent to me that I was the one they wanted and they said, yes they got me.  There was a woman who was Djamile's wife, Mama Zibugo.  Mama Zibugo said it's good that you did get hold of this dog, bring him in.  
	When we got into the house he said, Msizi we are going now, you are going to get into the front of the car and the rest are going to sit at the back and you're going to take Maqnoba and put him inside the boot.
	That's when it became apparent that I was going to be killed and I asked myself as to how I was going to fit inside the boot because I'm fairly tall.  I tried to remain calm and we went.  Mr Djamile's house is surrounded by a forest, I just ran into the forest and they shot after me but I managed to get right deep into the forest and I went to my other relatives.

MR SHANGWENI: Did you report this to the police?

MR HLOPE: No, I did not because I realised that he was collaborating with the police.  He killed a man at my place but he was never arrested.  He also shot another one but he was not arrested during all those incidents.  The other one who survived was scared to report the matter.  And he also gave him R100-00 not to report the matter.

MR SHANGWENI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI

CHAIRPERSON: What's the purpose of this evidence.

MR SHANGWENI: The purpose of this evidence Mr Chairperson, was that I wanted to show that Djamile was a type of a person who could manipulate anyone for the purposes of achieving his political goals.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: Yes, he tried to manipulate him Mr Chairperson and he succeeded in manipulating his brother Msizi Jethro Hlope.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think there's any doubt in our minds about that.

MR SHANGWENI: I was putting it for the purpose of record Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: None from me Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV SANDI: What was the purpose of the evidence that was led by the witness before this one?

MR SHANGWENI: Members of the Committee, I would say it's the same purpose as this one and secondly I wanted to show that Msizi Jethro Hlope was called at the instance of Djamile by sending Msizi's father to him.  No doubt Msizi would not defy the authority of his father and Samuel Begezizwe
Djamile, taking into consideration his age at that time.

ADV DE JAGER: You see Mr Shangweni, I've got this difficulty, he's applying for amnesty.  The evidence you're leading is sort of mitigating factors but you're not leading evidence about the applicant's personal motive in doing these things.  I've got difficulty to see what his motive was, what his political motive was, not what Djamile's motive was, to build and empire or to do whatever it was because we're not dealing with Djamile's application, we're dealing with the applicant's application.  And as far as that is concerned I think you should consider whether in fact there was any political motive because in the evidence before us I've got difficulty in coming to that conclusion as far as the applicant himself is concerned.

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct member of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: At an appropriate time you will address us on that aspect of the matter.

MR SHANGWENI: I will do that Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Anyway we have no question of this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY COMMITTEE

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other witnesses you are calling?

MR SHANGWENI: No, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It's up to you, are you calling witnesses?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, yes indeed I was hopeful to start with Mrs
Mkhize this afternoon, I see it is now just past 3.30 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There's still a lot of time.

MR DIAZ: Do I have time, thank you.    May I start with Mrs Mkhize.  Mrs Mkhize?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mkhize will you just stand and raise your right hand?  Are you prepared to take the oath.

ZAMASWAZI TANDI MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: May I have your full names please.

MR HLOPE: Zamaswazi Tandi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, before I begin perhaps I should say that on the record that has been handed in is contained a statement if not an affidavit by this witness numbered pages 109 to 111, otherwise numbered on the index seven.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a two page document is it?

MR DIAZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have it.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mrs Mkhize, do you recall that I read out to you the two page document contained in the record dealing with what you regard as your proposed testimony before this Committee today?

ZAMASWAZI TANDI MKHIZE: Yes, I do remember.

MR DIAZ: And do you confirm the contents thereof as being correct?

ZAMASWAZI TANDI MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR DIAZ: In addition, may I just ask you the following, you recall an incident during the trial of Mr Hlope and Djamile when you and Mrs Kuzwayo were walking towards the toilet during a tea recess when Mr Hlope approached you and talked to you.

ZAMASWAZI TANDI MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR DIAZ: Was there an incident prior to this when you enquired from the said Mr Hlope about who killed your husband?

ZAMASWAZI TANDI MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DIAZ: Can you tell this Committee firstly about that prior incident?