Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

MR VISSER: Very seldom, except if it led to public violence and so on.

MS VAN DER WALT: So although you cannot say that the photo is Oupa Ronald Madondo, you do know of him.  Can you - if you think back, because you can't remember Scorpion's real name, and if you look at this photo, can you give the Committee a possible indication as to whether it could possibly have been Scorpion, or how did Scorpion's looks differ.

MR VISSER: I cannot place this photograph, Mr Chair, I cannot give any indication if it could have been him.

MS VAN DER WALT: If this is Ronald Madondo then he was not Scorpion, are you sure?

MR VISSER: I am very sure of that because Ronald Madondo was, as I say, active in the are of high ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: I see on page 122, Mr Chair, that there was a detainment in terms of Section 6(1), it's an application, it seems to me to be a police document, it's was the Commanding Officer by the name of du Preez who signed this, where they spoke of the release of Madondo from a police station.  Are you aware of this?  It looks as if it was in 1979.

MR VISSER: It is possible that he was detained, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you did not detain him.

MR VISSER: But I did not detain him, no.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then it appears as if on 20.9.79 there was a letter from Commissioner Broderyk who referred to an alleged assault and that it was being investigated.  Do you have any knowledge of an assault?

MR VISSER: No, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was Scorpion ever assaulted, did he ever lay any charges regarding assault?

MR VISSER: Not as far as I know.

MS VAN DER WALT: It would appear as if Scorpion was arrested in early 1980 and was then recruited as an informer.  It is strange to me, if these letters are correct, where long allegations are made by Oupa Madondo about having been assaulted, letters from 30.08.1979, then it could definitely not be Scorpion because Scorpion was only recruited early in 1980 and killed in the middle of that year.

MR VISSER: Scorpion was definitely not identical with Madondo.  The name, to me it was general knowledge in terms of reports that I had read in other matters, Mr Chair.

MS VAN DER WALT: If Scorpion - let me rephrase.  If Ronald Madondo were a trained terrorist, would you have arrested him?

MR VISSER: Yes, he would have been arrested immediately.

MS VAN DER WALT: Because I'm not certain yet what the case of the family is, we will look into that, but it appears here that there's a Mr Meyer from Interior Security - Chairperson, this morning there was also a document handed out, a further statement from Mr Meyer, I don't know how the Committee is going to put that into the bundle or whether it will be an Exhibit A.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know who is handing it in but we could call it Exhibit A, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: It is actually - Mr Wagener apparently said that I would basically be the postman in this regard, I am not handing it in, I just brought it along from Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: If we want to use it then the fact is that we have to give it a number.  Let us call it Exhibit A.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Mr Meyer apparently has access to all the records of all informers and that kind of information at Police Headquarters.  He referred to a certain Adv MacAdam, or made enquiries on his behalf and it appeared that Mr Madondo, on the typed page of Exhibit A, typed page 2, he says Madondo was also known as Ronald and according to the police records also had two MK names, namely Prince and Rue, he says according to the information on the computer he was not known as MK Scorpion.  So this is in accordance with what you are saying, that the Scorpion that this investigation is about is definitely not Ronald.

MR VISSER: It definitely isn't, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What also is very insightful, referring to the other letters, is the information that related to Madondo, that there is no information regarding Madondo after 1978, which rhymes with what you are saying that you worked with Scorpion in 1980.

MR VISSER: I did work with him in 1980.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please just give me a moment here.  On page 122 we have a 1979 letter and on page also on page 121 an October 1979 letter, now if that relates to Ronald Madondo, then I don't understand how Meyer can say that there is no information on him after 1978.

MS VAN DER WALT: What I want to submit is - it's a pity Mr Meyer is not here, what I want to submit is that - the Brigadier can maybe help us, that if one looks at this information it could possibly indicate information which Madondo gave to the Security Police.  I don't know whether the assault would have been worked into that input, but that is my view, I may be mistaken.

MR LAX: Can I just add something.  There is no impression given by these documents to suggest that Madondo gave any information to the Security Police.  He was active and he was detained, but there is nothing here that says he gave information to the police.  So I just wanted to correct that.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MS VAN DER WALT: I can't reply to that, but I would submit that all indications are that this must definitely be someone other than Madondo.  As I've said, I have heard that Mr Meyer was supposed to have been here today.  But we can't speculate on that.
	I would like to also put it to you further that Mr MacAdam ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, just for the record, he was actually subpoenaed but he's honouring another subpoena, so he can't be in two places a the same time.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have heard so, Chairperson.
	On page 114, Mr MacAdam says that he unfortunately does not have a statement of Mr Nyanda, but it refers to Mr Nyanda who in those years was known as Kabusa, is that correct?

MR VISSER: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his position in the ANC?

MR VISSER: He was the Commander of the Transvaal machinery from Swaziland.

MS VAN DER WALT: So he would have known the military MKs from Swaziland, working from Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr MacAdam says here, with this interview that he had with Mr Nyanda, that Oupa Ronald Madondo was known as Rue and as Prince, and he goes on to say that this is the name by which he was known among MK members, but you insist that it was not Scorpion.

MR VISSER: Yes, I do.  The Scorpion I knew and Ronald Madondo are not the same person, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have now heard the other evidence and you confirm it.  Are you asking for amnesty for any misdemeanour, any offence arising from this incident?

MR VISSER: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: And any delict arising from this.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you, when you and Brig Goosen decided to eliminate Scorpion, did you do that through hate or malice or revenge?

MR VISSER: Not at all, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you gain personally in any way from this conduct of yours?

MR VISSER: No, I did not.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see it as essential in that time to maintain the government of the day and to protect the South African Police?

MR VISSER: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you believe that it was upon instruction of the Security Headquarters that you should do that?

MR VISSER: Yes, that is true, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something before we start cross-examination?  It just flows out directly from the last point, if I may.
	Brigadier, I understood from your answer that this person that you know as Oupa Ronald Madondo was a Black Power activist, have I understood you correctly?

MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that is distinct from an MK activist.

MR VISSER: Yes, it is a person who has no military training whatsoever as far as we know.