Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   They had their usual police pistol issue, which at the time I think was a 9mm Parabellum.  In the cars we had official shotguns, pump action shotguns, and an FN rifle.  But in the back of my boot of my car, specific car, I had a case at the time of 40 kgs PE4 explosive, I had a crate of Russian hand grenades, offensive and defensive.  I had Makaroff and Tokoreff pistols.  I had AK47s with ammunition.  I had time devices prepared - I think it was six - by Vaal du Toit from headquarters, for car bombs or any other explosions that I need.  And there might - oh, and amongst others were five HMK 9mm machine guns with silencers on, and on the side of it canvas bags welded onto it so it will catch up the empty shells.  I also a briefcase which was fitted

MR JANSEN: /with a

MR JANSEN: with a 9mm machine pistol, which General Johan Coetzee

MR JANSEN: received as a present from the Americans during a visit.  I don't know whether it was they were visiting him in South Africa or when he went overseas, which he donated to the technical division, and which Captain Vaal du Toit has built into this briefcase.  It had a silencer on, and that specific case you can then just pick up under your armpit.  The trigger was then at the bottom of the briefcase, and the hole of the barrel was behind a ticket showing which airways you're flying on, so you would just knock at the front door, pick up the briefcase  under your armpit, and pull the trigger, and there will be this soft sound, with all the empty bullets falling in the suitcase.

MR JANSEN: Did any of the other Vlakplaas members wear and handle firearms that were more specifically from Russian and Eastern European origin?

WITNESS:   Not at that time.  At my time only during special operations if deserved, but not - not loosely left with them to operate with.

MR JANSEN: And at the time what - you said Mr Mamasela was not with Vlakplaas on a full-time basis, but was with the West Rand Security.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   He was, Mr Chairman, working under Captain Jan Coetzee, who took Vlakplaas over on the 31st of December 1981 from me, but as I say, when Jan did not have work for him he would leave him at Vlakplaas to operate with us.  He was just paid an informant fee by West Rand, and otherwise whilst working with Jan Coetzee and I would need him, like in the Mxenge case, I could call on headquarters to arrange for Joe Mamasela to come down.

MR JANSEN: Do you know what kind of a firearm he used?

WITNESS:   He had an unregistered Russian Tokareff pistol that he

MR JANSEN: /carried

MR JANSEN: carried with him in a small little leather pouch.

MR JANSEN: As far as your knowledge goes were there many people in the Security Police that used these weapons of Russian and Eastern European origin?

WITNESS:   At the time not, except for Komatipoort and Pietermaritzburg, and then more specifically a Makaroff pistol with a silencer on, which they used at the times when - of the ANC cadres, in the case of Vusi and Peter and Sizwe Khondile, when they were doped with knockout drops that we received from General - I picked up from General Lothar Neethling's forensic police laboratory.  After they had been doped they were shot with this Makaroff pistol at pointblank in the head, before they were burned on the pyre of tyre and wood.

MR JANSEN: Were official records kept of these weapons?

WITNESS:  Not at all.

MR JANSEN: What was the purpose of using weapons from Russian and Eastern European origin?

WITNESS:   Always to implicate the ANC, Mr Chairman, like in the case of Brian Ngulungwa, when he was shot, The one person that was involved with us in the Mxenge murder, and subsequently Colonel Gene de Kock was found guilty of being involved in his murder in some way or another.  AK47 shells were found on the scene to again implicate the ANC.  For instance a burial was organised at Vlakplaas for him, and it was to all and sundry obvious that the ANC was responsible for his murder at the time.

MR JANSEN: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, I have no further questions in chief.

MR JANSEN: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, in the light of the request that
	/was made
was made to the Committee in chambers by the Mxenge family
that they carry over cross-examination to the following day I do not intend putting any questions to Mr Dirk Coetzee until they shall have cross-examined tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever have occasion to question orders that were given to you about eliminating individuals?

WITNESS:   Excuse me, Mr Chairman, can you just repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever have occasion to question orders that were given to you to eliminate individuals?

WITNESS:   Never did I question any orders, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever do anything to satisfy yourself that the targets that had been selected for elimination were selected on sound, reliable evidence?

WITNESS:   No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it never occur to you to do that?

WITNESS:   Mr Chairman, no, seeing that it's coming from the superior - from a superior working on the specific case.  No, it did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know anything at all about what mechanism there was that would make sure that the targets that were selected were, in terms of the police, justified targets?

WITNESS:   No, not at all.  I did not, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, with the benefit of hindsight perhaps it is easy to say that a number of these targets ought never to have been targets.

WITNESS:   I think none of these targets should have ever been targets, Mr Chairman, with hindsight.

WILSON J: You I think made it clear - I just want to confirm - that the reason why Mr Mxenge was targeted - I am sorry.  (Pause)  You have, I think, made it clear, but I just want to confirm, that the reason why Mr Mxenge was

WILSON J: /targeted

WILSON J: targeted was because he was being a nuisance defending people charged in the criminal courts.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: So he was targeted for doing his work as an attorney.

WITNESS:   Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: There was no suggestion of any other reason as far as he was concerned.

WITNESS:   No, because he was a staunch supporter of the ANC and acting for them on their behalf, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And the money that was mentioned came into his books and was put through his books.

WITNESS:   I accept - I have never seen the entries myself, as I said, that it was specifically handled by Andy Taylor, but it was told to me.

WILSON J: It was never suggested it was fraud or anything of that nature?  This was money - ANC money that was given to him.

WITNESS:   In short it was carried to me that way, that's right.

WILSON J: All right.  Now, I'd like to ask you about - sorry, if I can find the - why was it necessary, I was a little confused by this, that you went up just before Golel and hid his motor car there in an empty police - vacant police house?

WITNESS:   It was a brand-new car and ... (intervention)

WILSON J: Yes.  No, I am coming to the next.  And after that you took his jacket, his wallet and the numberplates, and burnt them and threw them into the river.  What was the purpose of that?

WITNESS:   To destroy evidence.  And his watch, and I suppose together with the knives, except the hunting knife, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Sorry, I just - at that stage you hoped to keep the

WILSON J: /car.  You

WILSON J: car.  You were destroying stuff that could be identified as Mxenge's other than the car, because you thought it was a new car and you could use it.  When I say "you," I mean the armed forces could use it.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman, to use it to - for instance, exchange it for a car that they could use up at Kufoot.  Send Mr Mxenge's car to South West Africa and get a car down from that side again that we could use here.