Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

ADV MEMANI: That is correct My Lord.  My Lord, if I may have a moment, my Instructing Attorney is going through the notes to find out if there could be something.
	Mr Chairman, it has been brought to my attention that the application in respect of the attack on the house of Louisa Mbongo which is at page 43 of the bundle, it is 2.9, has not been dealt with.  It is page 21 of your papers, Mr Ngo. Mr Chairman, it is not clear to me.  I thought that we have dealt with the matter.  I don't think it will do any harm to repeat it, it is a relatively short thing.
	Mr Ngo, would you please deal with the paragraph dealing, starting with at about twelve o'clock, midnight.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which act?

ADV MEMANI: The act concerning Louisa Mbongo.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I have got a note that you have dealt with it, but I may be wrong.  But in any event, he has confirmed the whole written document under oath, so I think as far as that is concerned, it has been dealt with, it has been incorporated in the record. But you could repeat it if you want to.

ADV MEMANI: Can you tell this Committee about this incident?  Do you have it in front of you, it is page 21 of your papers, or it is page 43.

CHAIRPERSON: I am quite sure that he has done it, I have a note and I can recollect him telling us about the protest march staged the next morning by her neighbours.

ADV MEMANI: That was just before the tea adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so.  You put it I think under 2.8 rather than 2.9, that may have led to some confusion.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases, then that concludes Mr Ngo's application, well the evidence in chief Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So he is not applying for amnesty for any offence he may have committed in connection with the death of Koboi?

ADV MEMANI: Which incident is that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 42, where he says he was with Warrant Officer Ramoseu, Warrant Officer Bester where they found two informers and they offered them R200-00 cash to kill a certain person called Kotoi, which was then done.

ADV MEMANI: That application was omitted in error Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may this matter stand down for a few minutes so that we may look at this application?	It appears to have been omitted, it is not even deal with at the pre-hearing meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not been mentioned, which is why I asked you whether you are not proceeding with it.

ADV MEMANI: There was no intention to (indistinct), it must have been due to oversight on the part of all parties, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want us to adjourn for a few minutes, is that what you are saying?

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are to deal with it immediately Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo, do you have page 20 or page 42?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I have page 20.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I have a difficulty.  I don't even know where this application starts Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, your client told us before tea time that he does not have pages 21 to 25.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman, he was given papers to supplement his papers.

ADV DE JAGER: So he can't find it, it is your client.  You should see that he has the papers before him.

ADV MEMANI: He had the papers before him, he was given copies Mr Chairman.  And I have difficulty with the fact that we get shouted at at every turn here.

ADV DE JAGER: Please see to it that your client is prepared to give evidence, that is why you have been instructed to act on behalf of him.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I have pointed out that due to error on the part of all parties, including yourself at the pre-hearing meeting, we did not deal with this matter.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, could I kindly tell you it is not the duty of the Commission to apply for amnesty on behalf of an applicant.  He should prepare  his application, you have been instructed, you get paid for it, in order to represent him and present his case.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.  May Mr Ngo then proceed?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was in 1986 when myself and Warrant Officer  - we went to Brandfort to meet our informers.

CHAIRPERSON: On the interpretation I was given, I didn't get the names.  Who were you with?  Who did you go to Brandfort with?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Ramoseu, Bester, Warrant Officer Bester and Warrant Officer Ramoseu.
	The objective to go there was to meet our informers.  That is Petso Polehlo and Swabole Muhloyani.  When we arrived at Brandfort, we drove with them on the gravel road which is between Bultfontein and Hoopstad.
	We drove there where we met those two informers between Hoopstad and Brandfort.  After we got the information about United Democratic Front, Warrant Officer Ramoseu requested two informers.   Then he inquired as to whether the will be able to kill a certain comrade called Kotoi.  They said yes, only if we can give them money. Ramoseu gave them R200-00 cash.  After some time, they phoned Ramoseu, that is Petso and Polehlo, they said to him Kotoi has died.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application you said it was on the following day, is that so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't understand your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application, your written application for amnesty, you said it was on the following day that Petso and  Muhloyani told, phoned Ramoseu and told him that Kotoi had been stabbed dead.  It was the following day that they told him.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It seems it is the following day.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo, could you kindly tell us in respect of what offence you want amnesty here concerning the death of Mr Kotoi.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, shouldn't the question be directed to counsel?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was explaining the incidents which happened in my presence.  I heard and I saw how it happened.  I don't know as whether I was supposed to ask amnesty for those issues.
	But I was just explaining those events which I saw and I heard.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't yourself partake in the killing or the instructions given to the informers?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I didn't have a role, I was only present when they were given money and I was present when they were requested that they should go and kill Mr Kotoi.  Then I got the information that he has been killed, when Ramoseu was phoned.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, to address your concern, it appears that the applicant says that Ramoseu asked the two informers whether they could kill a comrade called Kotoi for us.
	This would prima facie involve a conspiracy to murder and that is what he would probably be found guilty of.  And that is the application.

ADV MEMANI: .

CHAIRPERSON: Right, who is going to start, Mr Brink?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, before further questions are asked, I wonder then subject to anything my learned friend Mr Visser or other colleagues have to say, that on page 2, paragraph 2 of the minutes of the pre-hearing conference, a paragraph 2.16 be added - conspiracy to murder, Kotoi.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't see the indications of objection anywhere along the line.  Very well, we will do that, 2.16 and it give a means of identifying the incident.

UNKNOWN: I don't know whether possibly Mr Stander would like to proceed.

MR STANDER: Thank you.  Mr Ngo, I want to take you back to the incident that was dealt with this morning when you started.  You will find it on page 27 of the bundle. That is regarding the two victims.  A certain Mr Joel Makhubelo and Shadrack Oliphant.  Tell me, have you got it in front of you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I have it sir.

MR STANDER: Tell me, is Joel Makhubelo in this hall today, do you see him in the hall today?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Joel Makhubelo?

MR STANDER: That is it.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: His other name is Oupa, yes, he is present.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, may I ask Joel Makhubelo or Oupa Makhubelo to stand, to rise?  Is that the person you are referring to?