Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-23

CHAIRPERSON: About the bakkie which was stopped and then later stalled, which had to be pushed to get started. You told us that Mr Kloppers ordered you to help push the car?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes he told us to push the car.

CHAIRPERSON: But the evidence which was given before the Judge, the trial Judge was that you people in turn ordered some people to push the car and you were pointing guns at those black people and ordered them to push the car. You did not personally push the car.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No we pushed the car ourselves, this bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: So that kind of evidence would not be the truth?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No it is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said they were questioned about their political affiliation?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They answered these questions and said that they were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: After what happened?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Kloppers walked up to them with the baton that he had and he tapped them. He did not hit them. But they answered that they were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: He just tapped them but he did not hit them?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Not it was not a hard shot.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of the blows?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I was not intently involved with the questioning. I just heard what happened. I was examining the boots of the vehicles. And the purpose of the questioning you are going to have to ask the Commanders themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matthews the evidence was that these people were assaulted with batons.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Kloppers had the one baton with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matthews the evidence was that these people were assaulted with batons.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not see that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I was busy examining the cars.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not see that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I just saw the one instance where Mr Kloppers hit the one man over the head with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I just saw the one incident when Mr Kloppers hit the man with the baton on the head.

CHAIRPERSON: Hit him or tapped him, what did you see, the hitting?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I saw the blow, it was not a hard blow. I have seen harder blows.

CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you are, you are saying to us that as far as you, you never saw anybody assaulted with a baton that day? Is that what you are telling us?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: At the scene I did not really see anybody being assaulted except for Kloppers who asked them questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression that they did not at once admit, if they did admit, they did not at once admit that they were members of the ANC and that is why the batons came into the picture.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson I do not know how long they took to answer. I just heard a part of the questioning because I walked past them while I searched the vehicles, the boots of the vehicles.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come to the time if need be as to how long it took for them eventually to say they were ANC members if they did say that. All I am saying to you at this stage is that these people did not, at once when asked, they did not say or admit that they were ANC members. It was only after the batons came into the picture and into play.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I suggest that you ask that question to Mr Kloppers. I was not as involved there that I could give a correct and acceptable answer.

CHAIRPERSON: So your answer is that you do not know?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Not with conviction.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the, I may be wrong, I got the impression that when Mr Brink asked you the question yesterday you said that somebody hit them and then they agreed that they were ANC. Am I incorrect?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct. That is just how I explained it to them about Mr Kloppers and Commandant Martin.

CHAIRPERSON: So they agreed that they were ANC only after somebody had hit them with a baton?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: It seemed to me as such but I was not involved with the questioning myself. I was searching through the boots of these vehicles. I was not paying much attention to what the two officers were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you could observe they, as far as you could observe. I know you were not closely involved with the questioning according to your evidence. But as far as you can tell nobody admitted that they were ANC until they were assaulted? If you do not know say: "I do not know"?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: If you do not know you must say: "I do not know." I am just asking you. As far as you could observe, you could observe nobody admitted that they were ANC until they were assaulted with batons?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: When the one person left the vehicle before they sat down then I heard something about ANC. That was  before they were assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Only one?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is what I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that these people or the other people with the exception of that one, did you not think that they might only be conceding that they were ANC members simply because of the assault on them?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson I was not involved with that. And I cannot give you any certain answers.

CHAIRPERSON: But once a person admitted that he was ANC you were going to kill him? You Mr Matthews, you were going to kill him?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That would have been the decision of Commandant Martin and Commandant Kloppers. They would have taken the decision. Perhaps you would have to ask them about that.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought the decision had already been taken Mr Matthews at the time when the roadblock was put up you already knew that; "we were going to kill people who were members of the ANC."

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you know that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So when these people were questioned you knew that once they said they were ANC they were going to be killed? You knew that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson that is why we formed the (...indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That would have been the decision of Commandant Martin and Kloppers. Not my own decision.

CHAIRPERSON: The decision, was the decision already not taken?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They had to select the target group to us. Before that it did not matter who was pulled over they had to decide, we simply executed tasks. The tasks which were given by Commandant Martin and Kloppers. They would decide who our targets would be and what our actions would be.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matthews, you knew that if anybody at the roadblock turned out to be a member of ANC there was a good chance that he was going to be killed?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: There was a very good chance of that but it was not my decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not, for your part, did you not think that given the fact that anybody who turns out to be ANC he is likely to be killed, you have to be, to make sure that indeed and in fact such a person really has to be a member of the ANC?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson that would have been the work of Commandant Martin and Kloppers. They had to determine that, we simply executed their tasks.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you just operating like a mechanical robot or what?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I am not a mechanical robot. I followed the instructions of Commandant Martin and Kloppers. They would have given us the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not have any, you did not have any measure of discretion to exercise?