Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman can I just explain, I think I didn't get a chance in court although I tried to explain.  When the lawyers or our legal team drew up the submission to Goldstone, I was called in, I was busy in Pretoria with the inauguration of the new President and all those things, I was called in for short periods to give them a background in terms of what happened at Shell House and I gave a verbal briefing to them in terms of what happened at Shell House and how I saw what happened at Shell House.  The drawing of the final documents which I also tried to explain to the learned Judge was done by the ANC legal team and our legal representatives here.  I did not see the final document, I did not see a draft document, the first time I saw this document it was when it was brought to me to my attention in court.  So I can't testify to what's in the Goldstone document, I did not see the document, I just gave a verbal account of my activities on that particular day.  I was not allowed to articulate that in court but I tried but I want to tell this Committee that is my contribution to that Goldstone document.  I cannot comment on the document I did not see or did not draft.

MR DORFLING: Sir, but you played a vital role in instructing your attorneys and giving them advice as to what the particular facts were in order to enable them to draw up the document?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't know whether it was vital, what I say is my contribution with what happened around Shell House - I also said to the learned Judge, issues of Lancet Hall was left to people at Lancet Hall.  Africa Khumalo was the head of Security and Intelligence Department at Lancet Hall and he had the responsibility to deal with all matters concerning Lancet Hall.  I never dealt with any issue of Lancet Hall to the lawyers around the Goldstone Commission.

MR DORFLING: Let's then turn to the issue of Shell House in which you had an active role to play as far as your contribution is concerned.  Were you aware of any of the marchers that were firing at the Shell House guards with AK47 rifles?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not aware of it.

MR DORFLING: Can you now turn to paragraph 50 of the submissions made to Mr Justice Goldstone?  It's at the typed page 24 of the Goldstone Submissions.
	It reads as follows, sir:  "The crowd continued to advance past the north western corner and towards the south western corner of Shell House.  Can we just make sure that you're in agreement with me that this pertains to the actual main shooting incident?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not aware - I never drafted the document.

MR DORFLING: Please Mr Kruser, read it in context, you can read from the previous page - page 46 of paragraph 46 to just put you in context - it describes how Sergeant van Reenen goes to the marchers and comes back?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That would probably be my evidence and other guards evidence that Van Reenen ran and came back.

MR DORFLING: Now let's then deal with paragraph 50.  It says: "Shots could still be heard emanating from the crowd. At the same time the person identified earlier by Maduna to Calitz as a threat, fired his AK47 firearm at the security guards positioned on the first floor parapet of the north western corner of Shell House."
	Now sir, if you were instrumental in drawing up this or giving an input on...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Dorfling, just be fair to this witness, he's made it very clear he didn't draft this document.  Please stop putting to him he was instrumental in drawing it up, he didn't.  He's making it quite clear - he may have assisted in giving some background but I really don't think it's that fair.

MR DORFLING: Mr Kruser, if we can work on the premise that you made contributions together with the late Commissioner Radu with regard to this document?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: And the other guards who were present, we all participated in this event.

MR DORFLING: Were you unaware of the person amongst the crowd firing at the guards with an AK47?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: From where I was, I think it's my evidence in the inquest, I saw no firearms in the crowd.  People on the parapet would have a better view of people with AK's and maybe that people gave that evidence.  I couldn't see from where I was.

MR DORFLING: Did you obtain this information from any of the guards?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It was not my duty - I did not investigate the event as I testified in the inquest - Quest Dlamini was instructed by the National Directorate and the ANC leadership to investigate the whole event, it was not my responsibility.

MR DORFLING: Did you make no enquiries with your specific guards as to what transpired and what their version of the events were?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I testified in the inquest and I repeat - Quest Dlamini was appointed by the National Directorate immediately after the shooting to conduct investigations.  I gave him my version of what happened and all other guards gave him their version, that was his responsibility, not mine.

MR DORFLING: Could we lastly turn to paragraph 54 at page 25 of the Goldstone Submissions?  It relates to the security guards positioned on the parapet at the time of the main shooting and it relates to whether any of them could have injured any of the marchers in what is referred to here as a retaliation.  I'm specifically interested in the last sentence and it pertains to the guards on the parapet as I've said, it states "they are not likely to have injured anyone because of the difficult angle they were firing from as they were taking cover behind the parapet.  Do you agree with me that that is an untruth, the evidence from the Shell House inquest shows exactly the opposite?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I agree, I was not on the parapet at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Have you got any idea of the origin of this statement in the Goldstone Submissions?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't know but even myself initially when I visualised the angle I also thought it would be difficult but it's not my evidence itself.

MR DORFLING: So whoever made that input with regard to the Goldstone Submissions told an untruth?  I'll leave it at that Mr Chairman.
	Mr Kruser dealing with the attack and the time immediately prior to what you call the search forward and the attack on the guards you made mention of a so called war cry?  If I understand your evidence correctly, your evidence is that Mr Mondli Zuma actually explained to you that what the people are doing, they are doing a certain war dance or war cry - is that right?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my recollection.

MR DORFLING: I want to put it to you that this question was specifically asked to Mr Mondli Zuma at the inquest proceedings and he denied that this had taken place.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's what I remember happened.  I distinctly remember it happening.

MR DORFLING: I want to put it further to you that Mr Mondli Zuma said that at the time when the marchers came around the corner there was no hesitation - you virtually almost immediately had to retaliate?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's his recollection not mine.

MR DORFLING: Are you saying his recollection is wrong?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What I'm saying is we all have a different recollection of what happened.

MR DORFLING: With regard to the evidence at the Shell House inquest pertaining to what the crowd was doing immediately prior to the shooting taking place, you've already been referred by Mr Pretorius to the objective facts which indicate that there's no proof of any shots having been fired from the marchers in the direction of the security guards, you've already accepted that proposition, is it correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The security guards in my vicinity, ja.