Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR WILLS: Now, if Dr Chetty was to do a post-mortem on a body that was in this completely decomposed state, how easy would it be for him, or how would he go about weighing that body?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: He could just put the entire remains on a scale.

MR WILLS: Would it be quite easy to do?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It would be relatively easy to do, but it may not be accurate.

MR WILLS: I see, when you say it may not be accurate, are you inferring that the weight given would not reflect the true weight of the individual when the individual was alive, but it would in fact give the weight of the remains that he weighed?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR WILLS: How would he go about measuring the height of the person?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That might prove a little difficult.  If the body has been skeletonised, it is quite difficult to actually get the accurate height, but if there was soft tissue, then he can lay the body in the anatomical position and the measure from the heel to the tip of the head, the crown.

MR WILLS: That would depend, the accuracy of both of these figures would obviously depend on the state of decomposition, at the time, is that basically what you are saying?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: As well as the operator, the person that was measuring.

MR WILLS: Would it be a particularly intricate procedure, to measure the height?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, not particularly, not in my opinion.

MR WILLS: I am talking of a body in that, in a completely decomposed state?  I would imagine it would be more difficult than to measure a fresh body?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Fresh body, yes, that is correct, yes.

MR WILLS: In your experience, have you come across, given a second opinion in regard to District Surgeons who have done these types of measurements in respect of bodies in decomposed states and have you found them to be accurate or not?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, in our experience most often, the District Surgeons in the more rural areas do not measure either the weight or the height of the body.  Quite often people estimate the weight and the height.
	Because we are a specialist centre, we pride ourselves in the accuracy of our measurements, so it will vary.

MR WILLS: And no doubt, if you use the equipment, well, I suppose it will depend on the equipment, but my experience is very limited, I attended at the District Surgeon's office in Durban yesterday, and the equipment that they use to measure both weight and height, certainly had a sort of a partial measurement in the sense that it would reflect let's say 52,53 kg, what would be, do you know what the position would be at the District Surgeon's office in Verulam?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: You attended the District Surgeon's office in Durban yesterday where they deal with live patients, so they have much more accurate measurements, if you had to attend the mortuary, you would have seen a different set-up altogether.
	Our methods are a bit, not as accurate as the clinical set-up, we could have one of these large scales.  One has to look at the equipment that existed at the mortuary at the time.

MR WILLS: So basically what you are saying is that the, am I understanding your evidence correctly in that you are inferring that the possibilities are that the, as a result of the inadequacy of the equipment, the chances are that these figures would be less accurate than in the District Surgeon's office with clinical patients?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLS: I want you to refer to page 68 of Bundle 2, and look at the findings of Dr Chetty where he says the height was 1,6 m and the mass 60 kg.  Do you, would you be able to comment on that in any way?
	You see what is striking is that there are no portions of kilograms for example, and it is just 1,6 m, not 1,625 or anything like that.  Would you be able to comment on that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, I may give an idea in the sense that the person measuring that body may have rounded off that figures, so for instance if he had 1,59 or 1,61, he might have rounded it off to 1,6.  Similarly he may have had a scale that measured in whole kilograms or half kilograms, but rounded it off for convenience.  It would be more accurate to ascertain who took the measurements.
	An example, in our mortuary at Gale Street, the body is weighed and its height measured by the policeman on entry, but the pathologist re-measure the height.  We don't re-weigh it, we accept that the policeman's weight is correct.  One will have to find out who weighed it.

MR WILLS: I see the report on page 71 is signed by Dr Chetty and unfortunately it is just a copy of a carbonised form.   If the Commission would just bear with me - I am not sure if I can see any measurements on this report.

MR LAX: Look on page 73 on the top.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Yes, the same two measurements appear on that, on page 73 on the top.  Are you saying that it is possible that Dr Chetty himself didn't actually perform these measurements, usual procedure?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It may be possible, yes.

MR WILLS: That it was done by a policeman who brought the body into the mortuary?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Who registered the body into the mortuary.  Page 68 that you referred to earlier on, is a hand-written copy which may mean that this was the contemporary notes that were made whilst the autopsy was being performed.  Page 73, the typed copy, may have been the more formalised copy, after Dr Chetty may have had some time to think about what he did.

MR WILLS: Yes.    Turning to the discolorisation or staining of the clothing that you have seen, we have shown you Exhibit 1, 2 and 3.
	If one assumes that Exhibit 2, which is the poloneck, discoloured sweater, I will call it white, cream, if that was worn between the dress and the body, and the slip, which is Exhibit 3, was worn between the dress and the body, would that have any affect on the staining of the dress itself?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, it certainly would.  The poloneck garment was a thick garment which is capable of absorbing more liquid in comparison to the dress, which is quite thin, as well as the nylon half-slip which was quite thin and porous.
	It would have an affect on staining, yes.

MR WILLS: As a lay man I would imagine that, if that was the case, the dress would be less stained than would have been the case had that poloneck sweater not been worn between the body and the slip?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That may be considered, yes.

MR WILLS: Now also, if the dress had been cleaned in any way, would this affect your opinion on the markings on that dress?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, certainly.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  If you could just bear with me for one minute, please Chair - thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr SAMUEL, any questions?

MR SAMUEL: One or two questions.  Sir, if the dress was stained and at a certain stage it would have dried, the stain would have dried up, and it is left exposed to the weather, wouldn't that staining on the dress fade be a bit, at least?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: If it was exposed to the sunlight, yes.

MR SAMUEL: So the discoloration as such, would be less noticeable today than if the body was found almost immediately after the decomposition, am I right?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Let me be true, yes.

MR SAMUEL: Now, in regard to this height, you will notice that on page 28, the height was gauged by using certain calculations.  The variation between that height, 1,35 with that of Dr Chetty's 1,6 m, one must consider that Dr Chetty had a decomposed body as a whole, as such, and here we have the calculation, would that variation be a marked difference or is it normal?