Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-09-04

MR MOERANE: What's your present occupation?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: I'm a military practitioner in the South African National Defence Force.

MR MOERANE: Which section of the Defence Force?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: In the military health corps.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Is it correct that you were an accused person, accused number 3 in the matter of the State vs Buthelezi and others which was heard in the High Court or the Supreme Court as it was then called, Pietermartizburg, from the 3rd November 1986 until April 1987?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: That is true.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that you were charged among other things of being a member of the then unlawful African National Congress?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Is it also correct that you were also charged amongst other offences of taking accused number 5, that was Jude Francis and one Rev to the house of Mr Amajan Rajbansi and instructing them to bomb the house?  It's what you were charged with?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes, that's what I was charged with.

MR MOERANE: And it was alleged that they reconnoitred the houses of other members of parliament?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: It was also alleged, paragraph 12, Chairperson, page 43 of bundle 2, that on the 4th August 1985 that you procured a mini-limpet mine and gave it to Rev?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes, that is true.  I'm not sure that I recall the exact dates but I recall the act.

MR MOERANE: Yes, I'm just dealing at the moment with the allegations.

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: And that on the same day an explosive device exploded at the house of Mr Rajbansi causing damage?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of that offence?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of that offence?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: It was also alleged, page 44, paragraph 19, that in December 1985 accused number 3 gave instructions and conspired with accused number 5, that's Jude Francis and Rev to place an explosive device at the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court and such device exploded on the 13th December 1985 causing damage?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were convicted of that offence also?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Is it correct that you were in fact actually involved in those incidents?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: That is true.

MR MOERANE: Well please tell the learned Committee why you decided to do what you did?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Learned Chairperson, I decided to involve myself in the struggle against apartheid and to do all that was within my power to overthrow the apartheid regime in 1976 and I involved myself in a number of activities up until the period for which I applied for amnesty and gave my whole commitment to activities as part of the broader anti-apartheid struggle.  I decided to take up arms and join Umkhonto weSizwe as the armed wing of the African National Congress in the furtherance of that aim.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Now why was Mr Rajbansi or his house or property regarded as a legitimate target for attack?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: At the time we had decided that - we did it to send a political message to the House of Delegates, a very strong message that would make it clear to them that their particular activities were not supported by the majority of the oppressed and what we then did was to select amongst the different political heads, so to say, at that point in time and to choose a site where we could from a military point of view achieve maximum in terms of transmitting a political message.  Such an operation obviously had to be carried out within the policies of Umkhonto weSizwe and the broader African National Congress.  We had surveilled the house of J M Reddy, found it to be unsuitable.  The house of Bandulala, we found that to be unsuitable.

MR MOERANE: Who are these persons?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: These persons were either former heads of the House of Delegates Structures, they were Ministers, I believe.  One of them was the previous head of the - was the Chief Minister, that's Mr J M Reddy.  Mr Bandulala was a Minister as well or is the member of the House of Delegates.
	Mr Rajbansi as the Chairperson of the Minister's Council was also a member of the House of Delegates which he represented or purported to represent the Indian community.

MR MOERANE: Yes?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: The actual decision to perform the operation at Mr Rajbansi's house was taken after we had surveilled the whole scene, made certain judgements from a military point of view, taking into account the effect of the explosion, the need to contain the explosion, to minimise damage to property, to prevent injuries to civilians as far as possible and also for ourselves to perform that particular operation within the requirements of guerrilla warfare.

MR MOERANE: Yes, now with regard to the second incident, why was the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court regarded as a legitimate target?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: The Magistrate's Courts, in those days, were simply like all other arms of the judiciary apparatus, dispensing out apartheid justice.  Although within these institutions it contained a number of democratically minded people and democrats, those institutions represented the legal arm of apartheid and were utilised for that very same purpose amongst other purposes of course.  It was regarded by us as part of the State machinery and therefore fell within the ambit of a target for Umkhonto weSizwe to achieve a certain political message.

MR MOERANE: Now it's common cause that the explosion took place on a Friday evening at about quarter past six.  Was this planned and if so, why?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Well that is the time at which it would be very possible, most likely, it would be most likely that the building was unoccupied except for the persons guarding the people.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the Magistrate's Court explosion you're talking about now?

MR MOERANE: Yes, Magistrate's Court, yes.
	And so you say in all probability?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: The place yes, in all probability there would be no damage - there would be no injury to persons.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  You've mentioned "we".  Who are the people with whom you were working?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: I was within a command structure that consisted at various times of Induduz Sihole, known as Belgium.  Sihle, Sibosiswe Mbongwa, then Sibosiswe Ndlandzi, Lulamele Khatle, Sibongiseni Maxwell Dlomo and myself and beneath us, in a military sense, our subordinates, there were three.  There was Ricky Dhanpal Naidoo, Raymond Metheraj - I understand his name is now Raymond Metheraj Saclou as well as Jude Francis.  Within guerrilla warfare, the principle of need to know prevented me from knowing who actually was in the jurists  of the commanders who reported to me as well as prevented me from knowing broader intimate details of other units that were being commanded by ourselves as a command cadre, meaning Belgium, Sihle, Lulamele, Sibongiseni and myself.  I had no opportunity to get to know the identities of the different persons of the units in which the command cadre were responsible for.  I knew the commanders of the units under me and ...(intervention)

MR MOERANE: And who were those commanders?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Those commanders were, as I have said, Ricky Naidoo, Raymond Metheraj, Saclau and Jude Francis.

MR MOERANE: Ricky Naidoo being Dhanpal?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Exactly.

MR MOERANE: The applicant and one of the applicants in this matter?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on the subject of who people are, Raymond Metheraj Saclou, you haven't mentioned him in your application, have you?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: I would need to look at the application, Chairperson.