Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:   I'm referring to Ladies Hostel.  On their arrival to the hostel they found a white Cressida parked.  This man got out of the car and he called Oupa and when Oupa approached him, he took his gun and shot him on the cheek and he drove off to Riebeekstad.  He was taken to Riebeekstad. What is this Riebeekstad?   ---   It is a suburb.  And on his arrival at Riebeekspark(?) they got a red Laurel Nissan - I think it's a Datsun.  This man got into this car and he was driven away.  That is the statement we got from Dudubala when he was relating the matter to the police.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, what happened to others that were arrested with Ben?

WITNESS:   They were all discharged.  They were not found guilty at all.

MRS GCABASHE: All of them were discharged?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were all discharged.

MRS GCABASHE: Who went to the mortuary?  Who identified him at the mortuary?

WITNESS:   Masinuku and Kali went to identify him but Kali passed away.

MRS GCABASHE: I don't hear you well?

WITNESS:   No, I'm saying Kali went to the mortuary together with Masinuku.

MRS GCABASHE: According to your knowledge was Oupa not present.  Didn't he come back from exile?

WITNESS:   He came back from exile in 1991, at the beginning of 1991.

MRS GCABASHE: Where was he before 1991.

WITNESS:   I'm sorry, it wasn't in 1991.  I'm making a mistake.  It was the end of 1989.  It was the beginning of 1990.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you tell us where in exile was he?

WITNESS:   He arrived here but it was not yet the time to come back to South Africa.  He had to come and complete a certain mission and he was arrested by the police.

MRS GCABASHE: Where was he arrested?

WITNESS:   Rampai and Mogoregi arrested him.

MRS GCABASHE: Was it in 1989?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was and he said I'm now giving up.  I want to work with you.

MRS GCABASHE: Did he say he will co-operate with the police?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: And what did they say then?

WITNESS:   They said, fine, he should work with them and they transferred him to Pretoria and when he was in Pretoria they said they did not trust him and they took him further to East London.  He was not trusted again in East London and he was then taken to Bloemfontein.  They said they did not trust him at all.

MRS GCABASHE: What happened from there?

WITNESS:   He was transferred to Bloemfontein and that's where he met his death.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, what was the cause?  Why didn't they trust him, because he was co-operative enough and he was going anywhere they wanted him to go to?

WITNESS:   No, they only said they did not trust him.

MRS GCABASHE: You never came to know what were they actually saying when they said they did not trust him?  We have many statements here that we got from the police who said they got him on August 1991.  Do you know these policemen?  The police who discovered his body in 1991, where did they get him?  There are statements here.  We have a statement written in Afrikaans here and all the policemen confirm that they found him in 1991 next to Tabong hospital.  They explained the condition of this body.  Do you know that?

WITNESS:   I only heard from Tladi Mofokeng that my son had been shot dead.

MRS GCABASHE: There is a certain Hansie.  Do you know Hansie?

WITNESS:   No, I don't.

MRS GCABASHE: Is he a policeman?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is a policeman.

MRS GCABASHE: And Tladi Mofokeng gave the similar statement.  Do you have knowledge of that?

WITNESS:   No. Let's go back then to the policemen who wanted your son's co-operation.  What actually did they want from him?   ---   They said he should go and find where the bombs were and he should disconnect them.  I think there was a bomb in East London and he had to go and disconnect it, or detach it.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, was there a port mortem done?

WITNESS:   No.

MRS GCABASHE: And the case ended up nowhere?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: Is there anything you want to tell us, anything that you have left behind?

WITNESS:   No, there's nothing left.

MRS GCABASHE: Who were Oupa's friends when he came back from exile, that is at the time before his death?  Do you perhaps know the names of his friends?

WITNESS:   Are you saying here at home?  I didn't know his friends.  I only know the ones he grew up with.

MRS GCABASHE: Was he never at any stage in Cape Town because you said they sent him to Pretoria, East London, Bloemfontein?

WITNESS:   I think he was also sent to Cape Town.

MRS GCABASHE: As he was moving around the country was he in contact with your as the family?

WITNESS:   Yes, he used to come home.

MRS GCABASHE: Didn't he say anything to you - the details of his work?

WITNESS:   No, he was a quiet person.

MRS GCABASHE: But he was telling you that the special branches were using him?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, how do you feel now since the loss of your son?

WITNESS:   I'm not well.

MRS GCABASHE: If you say you're not well, can you give us an explanation?

WITNESS:   I'm a sickly person.  After the  death of Oupa I have got diabetic and high blood pressure.  I have this other child who was born in 1983 but after the death of the brother, this child is epileptic.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you referring to Oupa's child?

WITNESS:   No, I'm referring to my child who was born in 1983.

MRS GCABASHE: Is the child epileptic?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: You say this started after Oupa's death?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you often consult a doctor?

WITNESS:   Yes, I go to the hospital for treatment.

MRS GCABASHE: Which hospital are you going to?

WITNESS:   It's Bongani Hospital.

MRS GCABASHE: Where is this hospital?

WITNESS:   Right in Tabong.

MRS GCABASHE: How is Lebang's condition?

WITNESS:   Lebang is also getting treatment at the hospital.

MRS GCABASHE: Haven't you been to a specialist maybe to examine how affected are you?

WITNESS:   I would like to consult a specialist but I don't have money.  Sometimes I just go on credit.

MRS GCABASHE: We've heard that hospitals are now free of charge.  Don't you have such a hospital around Tabong?

WITNESS:   They put everything down.  They write it down and they would say you will pay at the end.  I pay R15,00 every time I have to see the doctor.

MRS GCABASHE: We've listened to your story and we sympathize with you and your son ended up dying in this cruel manner and yet he was trying to bring peace and he was trying to bring change.  I can see you are quite disturbed.  Are you a church member?

WITNESS:   I'm at the St John's Church. Don't you sometimes go to them to seek advice?   ---   I normally go to church for advices.

MRS GCABASHE: We have listened to your request. ... (Side B of tape ends mid-sentence.  No overlap to next tape which commences mid-sentence) ...  try as we put our recommendations forward and you have already mentioned that Oupa left behind a son.  We will try as we write a report to the President as to what kind of help can you be given.  Thank you very much.

WITNESS:   I also thank you.