Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may we change positions or the use of the microphones.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, you intend Mr Breytenbach to give evidence.

MR PRINSLOO: I can call Mr Breytenbach, Mr Chairman.  May I just before he is called ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, your mike.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, on certain pages I would like to make certain amendments with the leave of the Committee.
	The first one being on page 14 of the bundle, that's paragraph 11.  The name General Oelofse to be deleted, Mr Chairman.  And then on page 15 of the bundle, paragraph 12, the fifth line from the bottom of that particular paragraph, the name Oelofse to be substituted by Etsebeth, "Generaal Etsebeth".  It should be a D, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  And at page 18 of the bundle, paragraph 23, it should read - the word "Piet Breytenbach" must be substituted by de Wet Strydom.  It refers to the applicant himself.  It says:
"Me, de Wet Strydom and Piet Wessels"
I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, page 19 the top of the page the same would follow:
"Me and de Wet Strydom"
Instead of Piet Breytenbach.  And then the fourth line of that same paragraph "General Oelofse" to be substituted again with "General Etsebeth".  That will be all, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms van der Walt, do you have any objection to those amendments to those amendments being affected?

MS VAN DER WALT: No objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Prinsloo, we'll then effect those amendments as stated by yourself.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm indebted to the Committee, Mr Chairman.  I call the applicant, Mr Breytenbach, Mr Chairperson.

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Breytenbach, you together with your co-applicant are applying for amnesty for the acts as we find them in the indictment as well as in your application.  The acts appear in part of the bundle of documents before the Honourable Committee, from page 71, is that correct?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that your application is contained in the bundle from page 2 up until page 48?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you confirm the contents thereof?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: You've heard the evidence of your co-applicant, do you confirm his evidence?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you also confirm that you were acting under his command as a member of the AWB?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: How long were you a member of the AWB?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Since 1987 up until the elections and the arrest.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you still a member of the AWB?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: No.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as these acts are concerned, the one at Bultfontein where someone died and where the landmine was planted, did you foresee the possibility that a person might be killed?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes, I did foresee such a possibility, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: At any stage during the planting of these explosive devices at the two schools and as well as Mr Kazee's store at the tower as well as the liquor store and as well as at Doctor Breytenbach's consulting rooms, did you intend to kill someone?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And the school which your co-applicant referred to, the school of Mr Beukes, is it so that that was a farm school and it was also situated on a farm and on his property?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage did you intend to kill anyone?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: No, not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: Were your actions aimed - was it based on a racist point of view?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: The incident of Mr Smit, his business, did you intend to kill anybody there?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And the Agriman business?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And the Sannieshof Liquor Store, the person there, Mr Pereiro says in affidavit on page 98 of the documents, that it was only done because black people attended that hotel, is that true?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: According to your information and instructions was he a supporter of the ANC or was he favourable disposed towards the ANC?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: He was a supporter of the ANC according to the information we received and we also knew about a lot of money which he gave to the ANC and that's why we attacked him property.

MR PRINSLOO: The firearms of which you are accused, the ones you have illegally possessed, they mention three pistols, Z88 pistols, do you know about them?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes, I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you present when those pistols were found in the vehicle of Mr Piet Wessels?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes, indeed.  When the pistols were found was after we were arrested and they searched our vehicles.

MR PRINSLOO: But did you know about the buying of those pistols by Mr Piet Wessels from Mr Swart?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes, I know about that.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you associate yourself with that?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes, I do.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as the Taurus pistol is concerned, do you know anything about that pistol?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: What do you know?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: It's a firearm which I bought about two weeks before we became involved in the skirmishes and I had it with me in terms of the question that I was applying for a new licence.

MR PRINSLOO: But at that stage you had it illegally?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as the 303 rifle is concerned, do you know about that rifle?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Yes, I do, it's a 308.  It's a rifle which was inherited from my father-in-law by my wife and I took it with me because we had to talk over the barrel of a gun as was proposed in all the meetings.

MR PRINSLOO: These deeds you committed and the possession of explosives and the weapons and ammunition, did you do it for yourself or did you do it on behalf of someone else?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: The motive for these acts was for the AWB, it was a political struggle in which the AWB was involved at that stage and the objectives were to obtain our own land by using these methods.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: Mr Breytenbach, the AWB was preparing for war, is that right?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: That's correct.

DR TSOTSI: Did you believe that this war could be fought and won without any bloodshed at all?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: No, that's not correct but we were in the process of committing this war.  We couldn't foresee what the end result would be.

DR TSOTSI: But you do accept that bloodshed was a certainty, that in a war like that, the type of war that you were engaged in, there would be bloodshed?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: It was possible that loss of blood would have taken place but we wanted to restrict it to the minimum.

DR TSOTSI: That is all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Breytenbach, during this period that you operated with Mr Strydom, were you a full time operative of the AWB?