Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

MR MALAN: Did you have any information about his activities at that time?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No, he was not reporting to me, I was a politician.

MR MALAN: And you didn't hear anything?

JABULANI KHUMALO: But I know him.  That's why I'm saying to you, the way you take this thing, you take it as if it was conventional and you claim that APLA made submission that you understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Khumalo, I think, you know, you are giving evidence to us.  Please, the reason why you are giving evidence is for you to try and assist this Committee.

JABULANI KHUMALO: I want to assist you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JABULANI KHUMALO: Can you give me a chance to assist you, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore we will pose questions to you and you will kindly respond to those questions.  We would want to presume that the reason why Mr Mbandazayo has called you is to enable you to assist us in respect of issues which are material and cardinal to Mr Maseko's application.

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes, can you give me that opportunity?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have given you that opportunity and we would like you to use that opportunity very sparingly.  Now I have already stated that we are aware of a pregnant submission by APLA which speaks to the existence of the repossession unit and the objectives which were deemed to be attainable by that unit and that is the only submission that I referred to.  The reason why you are here is to give us more information or to clarify issues insofar as the operations of that repossession unit is concerned.  Are you with me?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

JABULANI KHUMALO: As I said it before, I'm saying it again, that the repossession unit, specifically this one, let me talk about this one because I did add some general, general to other units as well that operated but in this particular case, this particular one, the order was that, that if they go for the repossession, whatever they attained from that repossession should be surrendered.  In this case the commander of that unit was Thapelo Maseko who in turn had to surrender to Msiki in Botswana.  I know Thapelo Maseko not only from 1990 but before that time.  I also quoted the name that you don't know, that was Lebo, that was his operational name to other areas, especially in our area in East Rand when he was introduced to us in 1989 he was Lebo and then he came and go to this operation and I think it was clarified, the only assistant that maybe you can require to me is that because there was a lack of corroboration if I understood the panel, to say that was a genuine political objectives.  I'm here to clarify that, that Thapelo Maseko was a member of the PAC a member of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army and he carried the operation under the blessing of the PAC.  His mission was that whatever he gets should not be used for his personal gain but for carrying out this instruction but he had also the mandate from his commanders.  I will take it logically even from the PAC that as a commander you've got to use your discretion of how do you utilise the money if you're not, but you have to report it, whatever you take you report it.  In this case there is a standard that he created that R500 and more he will submit it and surrender but less he would not.

MR MALAN: Mr Khumalo, this may help you a little because what is questioned is not whether it was a military operation, that we have the - the application we have the information as has been pointed out to you by the Chair.  We even have the supporting affidavit of Mr Mpashlele so the political is not questioned, we wanted information as to the payment in deed but I think you are saying to us you were not involved in the operations, nothing was reported to you so you cannot shed light on the amounts that were paid over to Msiki, you have no knowledge of that?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes, I am saying he cannot know exactly where it ends up.

MR MALAN: No, no, but that was never the question, that's also understood, that's clear in our mind, he cannot know what Msiki does with it.  But the only information we had at the time was that, was his statement that he handed monies to Msiki?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes indeed.

MR MALAN: Alright but you wouldn't know that?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No.  Although I was not particularly involved but he did hand it over.

MR MALAN: How did you know that?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Otherwise if he didn't - can I go on?

MR MALAN: Yes.

JABULANI KHUMALO: If he didn't, such a report, it would have been reprimanded.  He would be reprimanded because I'm saying that these reports does not end up to Msiki, it goes up and up until Sabello Palma and Sabello Palma as the commander of the military wing, he does not put these things under his cupboard, it has to come back to the political organ of the PAC because whatever they do it must be blessed by the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, are you saying that before proceeding to execute any operation he would advise the person who was higher than him, that is Msiki, about his proposed operations, is that what you are trying to say?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No it depends.

CHAIRPERSON: On what?

JABULANI KHUMALO: It depends to him.  Sometimes they can report before, sometimes they will carry on the operation and report later but a report would come.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  My only problem if you put it in that fashion is that if Msiki did not know that this operation was going to be conducted, how would he be able to know if Mr Maseko did not come back to report to him?

JABULANI KHUMALO: A unit does not stay on an island.  Wherever he was he was not alone.  Although they were the unit that will carry over the struggle at that time, that particular operation, but there are people that knows about what is going to happen because they were not staying on the jungle, they were being sheltered elsewhere and there were people who were responsible to assist if possible, who were not actually the people that were to be involved in that particular operation so now there is no way that it's only known by you.  Let me put a clear example to you, if they come to my area in the East Rand they would have been secured in accommodation.  In that accommodation somebody had to look after them.  So although details of the operation could not be discussed with those people that are assisting them with the A's and the B's but it will be known that they are now going out.  So now such information could not just end up with the commander himself as it he's the owner of the struggle.  So in that case, he could not lie and he could not, not to report because the personnel that is used as foot soldiers that he commands also are the brain people, they are not just the machine, they are the brain people, they do the operation under his command for political objectives.  So they would discuss these things because after the operation I would take it that there would be a meeting of observation of the operation and in that a commander is no longer a commander, they are equal.  They discuss this matter and the process of reporting that he is going to report, he must inform his unit, it's not only decided by himself as sole discretion and no one knows about it.  So in that case you cannot - APLA operate in a long arm that if we put you there, we put another person on top of you.  So there was that operational, that's why I'm saying that guerilla warfare goes deeper than what it's viewed on the face.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I understand about what you are trying to say about checks and balances.  Mr Mbandazayo, you were in the process of leading your client, your witness rather, you may proceed.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, I think some of the points I wanted to canvass have been canvassed by the Honourable Members so that's all at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, do you have any questions to put to Mr Khumalo?