Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have no idea, Mr Chairman, how should I know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you ask when you saw the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because it wasn't on the list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you see, you  ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: I think perhaps we could record at this stage that it does not appear to have been the car he was driving when he was killed.  That car can be seen in Volume 12, and the number of it is RDG692T.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, but I know nothing about these car details in any case, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: There will be evidence that this was a car which Mr Hani used, it belonged to one of his friends. Now, Mr Derby-Lewis, may we return to 11, page E11?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, okay, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "The objectives of the attack."  Please read your own handwriting in relation to number one.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Number one, Mr Chairman
"To strike a blow for Almighty God and Christianity against the anti-Christ Communism in the form of the leader of the SA Communist Party."

GEORGE BIZOS: Can we please look at your application to - will you show us where you said that this was for a strike, to strike a blow for Almighty God, by killing the anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is not in there, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not in there?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, as we mention with point 5 on the same document.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I don't want, generally speaking, I refrain from asking people about their religious beliefs, but because of your evidence and because of what you wrote, in 11.1 of Exhibit E, I must ask you this.  You were born into the Catholic Church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Does the notion of the anti-Christ play any role in the Catholic Church in modern times, since the time of the Inquisition?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the Catholic Church also observes the holy Bible and the holy Bible is quite clear in its teachings regarding the anti-Christ.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you believe that cataclysmic events would overtake the world at the instance of the anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not qualified to answer that question, I have never had thoughts on that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you thought about the anti-Christ and you said that you struck a blow for God. I would have thought that you are the best person to ask as to what the notion of the anti-Christ is.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I think I made it quite clear in my previous testimony, that before Mr Hani was even selected as a target, I was aware of the fact that we were fighting against Communism. It was quite obvious the National Party regime also propagated the concept of fighting against Communism.  And Communism, Mr Chairman, is the vehicle of the anti-Christ.

GEORGE BIZOS: And apartheid isn't?  (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that is another point.
(Loud laughter and cheering)
But, Mr Chairman, while Mr Bizos raises the aspect of apartheid, I am sure that he raises it  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: No, just say yes or no and we can proceed.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, please, grant me an indulgence here.  Mr Bizos has made a very, very snide remark, as though I am a defender of apartheid, and Mr Chairman, I have categorically stated on numerous occasions, I am not a defender or a propagator of apartheid. I detested apartheid because in terms of Mr De Klerk's own admission, apartheid was a policy of White supremacy and the Conservative Party's policy has never propagated White supremacy, Mr Chairman.  We propagated equal - equal opportunities and equal self-determination ...(tape ends)

GEORGE BIZOS: ... that they could not live with the statement of the DRC that apartheid is a sin.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, because at that stage the National Party Government had said that they are breaking with separate development as a policy, and that was the motivation, and you must call members of the Afrikaanse Protestantse Kerk to come and testify on that, Mr Chairman, if you want more details. Don't ask me what was behind their statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't want this to descend into a religious debate either. I merely want to test your credibility, Mr Derby-Lewis. If the church that you joined was formed - one of the reasons, that the DRC declared apartheid a sin, how did you join it, not believing in apartheid at any stage?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because apartheid in their terms, Mr Chairman, was the policy of separate development, and I could see no sin in that policy.  (Applause).

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I think that you are a little confused, but I am not going to try and clarify it.  You say they saw apartheid as separate development or did you see separate development as non-apartheid?  Is that what you want to really say?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Well, never mind, you have said what it was.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were never in favour of apartheid?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have never been in favour of apartheid.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever renounce  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, White supremacy apartheid, never.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever renounce forced removals?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, by the time I became actively involved in politics  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: The answer is no.  Is it no or is it yes?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There were no longer forced removals when I was a public representative.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, very well, you never protested, you never protested against forced removals because there were none whilst you were in politics.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Quite so.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you start in politics?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In 1977, Mr Chairman.  (Laughter).

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you saying to the Committee that there were no forced removals after 1970?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

GEORGE BIZOS: 1977, when did you say?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Ja, Mr Chairman, I am saying that when Mr PW Botha took leadership of the National Party, in 1978, he stopped separate development and he stated that the whole policy was a failure and it had to be abandoned.  But in fact  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: But ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Please let me finish, because this is relevant. In fact, Mr Chairman, at that stage in 1978, it was common cause that in terms of the ethnic orientation of territories in South Africa, that an average of 70 - these are the figures that are at my disposal, and I have never had them questioned in any political arena anywhere in this country or outside, that in terms of those figures, Mr Chairman, that something like a percentage of 72% of all of the peoples of the different ethnic groups, were either resident within or in the immediate surrounds of their traditional territories.  That was the information to my, available to me.  And Mr Chairman, that told me something. We could never ever have effected forced removals to the extent that would be required to effect such a massive move of people from one place to another. They must be moved voluntarily and I believe they moved in that area because industrial development was taking place, Mr Chairman, and if I can use Bophuthatswana as an example, that is proof of that.  Bophuthatswana was the economic success story of the policy of separate development.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I am not going to debate with you the heresy of indebtedness that the leader of that country left to South Africa, but never mind, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't do that, Sir, and I can't be responsible for that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us get on, let us get on with more relevant matters.  You say you never heard of a forced removal after 1977?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr Chairman.