Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

LUVUYO KULMAN: It does fit in because we were waging war against these people.  To end up killing them, was forwarding the struggle.
	Instilling fears to this who were still alive that APLA was doing about their land, demanding their land.

UNKNOWN: I will leave it at that, thanks.

MR BOTHMA: You had no information that Donnie was a member of the AWB, is that correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: No, I was never given any such information, but I do know that she was an oppressor.

MR BOTHMA: You had no information about her whatsoever, you didn't know her at all, you didn't even expect to find her there?  None of your reconnaissance had anything to do with her?  How can you say such a thing, you didn't know the person?

LUVUYO KULMAN: What are you asking about?

MR BOTHMA: You said she was an oppressor, but you didn't know her.  You can maybe think she might be an oppressor, but to say she was an oppressor without knowing her, or anything about her, you can't make that conclusion, surely?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Every white person is an oppressor.

MR LAX: And therefore should be killed?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Correct.

UNKNOWN: But only when an order has been given, is this what you are saying?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That is correct.

MR LAX: So how do you explain in this case then, that you didn't have an order to do that in fact?  You had no order to kill Donnie?

LUVUYO KULMAN: As I had already said, Donnie being killed happened accidentally because I was trying to shoot the father, unfortunately she got the bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now saying it was your bullet that killed her?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, the bullet that got her on the left side of the face, that was my bullet.  Whether it is that bullet that killed her, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said it was.  Will you please think before you answer questions.

LUVUYO KULMAN: I quickly answered the question without it being explained, I actually thought you were asking if it was my bullet that got her.  That is why I answered the question in such a manner.

CHAIRPERSON: You used the word killed, you said I killed Donnie accidentally.  And then I asked you are you saying that it was your bullet that killed her, and you said yes.

LUVUYO KULMAN: This is why I said that I just answered quickly.

MR BOTHMA: The firearm, the 357 Magnum from Mike Meyers, what happened to that after Thandekulo came back, did he give it to you or to your co-accused?

LUVUYO KULMAN: It was given to my co-accused.

MR BOTHMA: Did you have any time to inspect this weapon?

LUVUYO KULMAN: No, we did not have the time.

MR BOTHMA: So why are you able to tell this Commission that the firearm being shown to you, is not in fact the firearm that was possessed or taken from Mike Meyers on that day?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I know the gun because after Thandekulo searched the truck, he showed me the gun.  He told me that he has found the gun, and I saw how the gun was.

MR BOTHMA: You never inspected the gun, that was the question?

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to the witness, the question was as I understood it, after the gun had been given to his co-accused that he said he had no chance to inspect it.

MR BOTHMA: As you please Mr Chairman.  I just put it for record purposes, that this was in fact the firearm that Mike Meyers had in his possession on that day, and in the same condition as was shown to you yesterday.

UNKNOWN: Just to finish off this area, this aspect of questioning.  You mentioned yesterday that your co-accused dropped his shotgun when he was given this particular firearm, what did you mean by that?  You used the word dropped.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Did I mention this yesterday, about him dropping the gun.  Please show me.

UNKNOWN: Yes, you did.  I was looking at my notes last night, and I know you did.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that he corrected himself almost immediately.

UNKNOWN: What I have here is Zama was armed with a home made firearm, when we got the .38, Mike Meyers', he dropped his home made and I had a question here, what did you  mean by drop and I don't want to leave it till later, I would rather we finish it off, but if that is not what you meant, please just explain and say whatever.   Just give us the correct position.
	He dropped his home made, so I just wanted an explanation, what happened to that home made essentially, what do you mean by dropped?

LUVUYO KULMAN: After my co-accused had been given the .38, the home made weapon was in the car.  I don't think I stated it the way you have written it in your notes.

UNKNOWN: So you are saying it was in the truck, the home made was in the truck, is that what you are saying now?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR BOTHMA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR BOTHMA: .

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have a few questions.  As a soldier of APLA, you indicated that you had received military training within and outside the country, is that correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: In the last three weeks we have heard of the 15 rules or aspects or the code of conduct that APLA soldiers have to adhere to, are you familiar with those 15 rules?

LUVUYO KULMAN: The 15 points of attention?

MR PRIOR: Yes?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I did go through them, but now I have forgotten.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you held those 15 points of attention, those were very important to APLA soldiers, is that correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Correct.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I am referring to the bundle that was used in the King William's Town matter, Mr Xundu and others at page 61 of that bundle, that was headed the Aristocratic Democratic Rules of APLA 15.
	I am going to refer you to rule 14 which states do not ill-treat captives or anyone in your charge.  Are you familiar or were you familiar with that rule?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was Donnie Meyers not a captive at the stage when you drove away with her in the truck?  Was she or wasn't she, yes or no?
	The question doesn't require a long statement.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, she was a captive.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  I want to refer the Commission to page 20 of the bundle, it is a statement made by Zwelibanzi Makhasi.
	If time permits Mr Makhasi will either testify today or at a later stage.  I need to put this to you in fairness to you for your comment?

MR LAX: Sorry, this is Bundle B Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: I beg the Committee's pardon, it is Bundle B.  I want just to read from the second paragraph for your comment.
	Mr Makhasi says that on the 27th of August 1993, at about 2 pm he was at the Tseleni Brickyard building a water tank stand, when he saw a white truck driving on a gravel road from the direction of Umtata towards Nqobo.
	He identified the truck as the one he used to see being driven by a white man.  The truck stopped on the road, about a kilometre away from him, he did not see anyone alighting from the truck.  The place where the truck stopped, was near a natural forest.
	After the truck had stopped, he heard three gunshots coming from the direction of the forest.  He thought the white man was hunting.  Do you understand what I have read out to you, do you follow what I have read out to you?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now, it would seem from Mr Makhasi's report, he did not see any bakkie.  The bakkie that you told us yesterday about, belonging to Thandekulo, stopping near that forest, near that truck.  Can you comment, do you want to comment?

LUVUYO KULMAN: If he didn't see it, it is not my fault.  I couldn't show him.  I don't know why he didn't see it.

MR PRIOR: I am going to suggest to you that Thandekulo was not there.

LUVUYO KULMAN: You are saying that because you were not there either.

MR PRIOR: Mr Pangele, the Detective from Murder and Robbery Squad, gave evidence at your trial.  Do you remember Mr Pangele, Mr Fanelo Pangele?

LUVUYO KULMAN: There were a lot of Police there, I can't remember which one he was.  I can't say I remember him.