Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MR BERGER: As to who was on the list and who was not on the list and my submission is that it's important.  First of all it's important for the applicants from the point of view of reconciliation, it's important for them to actually know, unfortunately they're not even here, but it's important for them to know what their participation in this raid, what it actually did, what are the consequences of their actions.  But secondly, it's important from the point of view of full disclosure and also proportionality because I submit, if I'm right that the purpose of the raid was to hit anybody, be they military or not, anybody who was connected to the ANC, then that goes a long way to questions of proportionality.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely.  Now that's the point I made to you.  Now let's assume for the purposes of this argument that that is so, that this Panel accepts your argument, how would what you propose to lead Ms Anderson on advance that argument, because we have that possible scenario in front of us already.

MR BERGER: Well I wanted to lead Ms Anderson, it was not going to be a long thesis, but I wanted to lead her just on drawing a picture for you of the community that existed immediately before this raid and the community that was effectively snuffed out.

MR VISSER: May I reply to that Chairperson and make it very easy for my Learned Friend?  It has never been my intention to argue that the targets were anything else but the ANC, in all its forms and phases.  The whole issue of distinctions was brought about in the cross-examination of my Learned Friend, so that's not going to be my argument that there was this fine distinction drawn between armed MK soldiers as it turned out in the end to be, as opposed to the ANC in Botswana.  That is the purpose Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not going to argue that point now, I'm just going to make a robust decision and allow this short evidence, that you promise, to be led.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Ms Anderson in as brief a way as you can, could you describe the life of the exile community in Gaberone immediately before the raid?

MS ANDERSON: Okay, it wasn't, by the way, just the ANC community, it was also Botswana people who were living in Gaberone, it was expatriates who were involved in art and interested in art, as Ms Baleka testified earlier, MEDU, the cultural organisation, was the organisation that embraced us all.  There were ANC members within that.  Botswana, Gaberone ...(indistinct) the raid, were probably the most culturally active and exciting place to be in South Africa.  We had Hugh Masekela playing one night at a club, we Jonas Gwango one night in a club.  We had brilliant artists like Thami Mnyele whose art we had access to.  We had Wally Serotse, one of Africa's most famous writers wandering amongst us, Willy Gosetsili, another famous writer.  We had access to culture that we had never, nobody had ever had access to that sort of culture before and we were all involved and all producing and all writing, it was the most creative time of everybody's lives.  People like Mike Hamlyn and Uriel who, although as Ms Baleka says, they were ANC members, they were actually on the periphery of the ANC community and working within MEDU.  What happened as a result of that raid is that community was shattered, entirely shattered, creativity was shattered for ages and ages.  Many of the women who were there, we had babies afterwards, we produced, we went on in other countries and carried on with our lives and made babies because we didn't want to just die, but creativity did die for a long time and the raid forced people to become more militant, so you had a situation where people who had been involved in creative activities, artistic activities, decided the regime is so irrational that it can attack artists, poets, writers, it is so irrational, let us take up arms, so although I had taken up arms previously, others had not and they did subsequently.

MR BERGER: Okay.  Let's go to your statement.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR BERGER: In paragraph 3 you talk about your work and you've already told the Committee how you were involved with Ordinance and Ordinance is a military term for supply of weapons, is that correct?

MS ANDERSON: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now you met Mike Hamlyn in 1983/84, is that correct?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Just by the way, this house where you were living and where Mike Hamlyn was living at the time, I suggested in the first session of this hearing that that was the same house where Marius and Jeanette Schoon were living prior to them leaving Botswana.  Was I correct?

MS ANDERSON: No.

MR BERGER: They were living in another house?

MS ANDERSON: They were living in ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: They weren't living in the same house ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS ANDERSON: They were living in a block of flats actually and I'm not quite sure where, because I never went there.

MR BERGER: Yes and you corrected me when we consulted, is that correct?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now this house, the house at Pudulogo Crescent, could you just describe for the Committee where it was precisely in relation to the University?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR BERGER: It's in paragraph 4 Chairperson, on page 6.

MR MALAN: Is that taking us to a different position that we thought we were agreed on yesterday?

MR BERGER: No it's not, but that was evidence from me, it wasn't evidence from a witness.

MS ANDERSON: Well I would confirm ...(indistinct)

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MS ANDERSON: Basically what was described yesterday.

MR BERGER: Now you say that you can confirm that Mike Hamlyn was not a member of the ANC or MK.  You've heard the questions before, well, how can you say he was not a member of the ANC or MK, isn't it possible that he was a member of MK and you didn't know about it?  You've heard those kinds of questions.  What is your response to that?

MS ANDERSON: Look it's absolutely not possible that Mike Hamlyn was working for MK and I wouldn't have known about it because the structures to whom I was reporting, would never have allowed me to go and stay at a place if there was somebody else working for MK.  It was precisely because of the fact that Mike had nothing to do with MK, that it became a safe place for me to be able to stay in, because it was not the sort of place that would become observed, or noticed and Mike was an absolute darling, he was great at fixing computers and cars and very helpful on all those kinds of levels but he had absolutely nothing to do with MK.  He was a conscientious objector and he was not about to go and join another army.  He had left one army, he was not about to go and join another one.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he perhaps a sympathiser of the ANC?

MS ANDERSON: Yes, he was certainly a sympathise of the ANC, he was a progressive guy.  I mean let's face it, the entire world outside of the very tight regime in South Africa, was a supporter of the ANC, so it's not, I mean it's not very hard to be a sympathiser of the ANC, the ANC was a human rights struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not criticising him for it.

MS ANDERSON: Yes, I would say certainly he was a sympathiser of the ANC, but he was not an activist.

MR MALAN: The question was, if I heard Mr Berger correct, whether he was a member of MK or a member of the ANC.  Are you saying he would not have been a member of the ANC either?