Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, Mabilo - I didn't see Mabilo was given the gun, but that time when Sergeant Mamome gave Yster the gun, Mabilo was present.  Mabilo didn't know that the gun was used to kill his uncle.

MR VISSER: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't Mabilo take the gun?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present, but he didn't take the gun when Yster was given the gun.  The gun came directly from Sergeant Mamome to Yster.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was Yster who was given the remaining bullets and told not to disclose about the gun?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I just wish to put to you that Lieutenant Shaw, apart from the general denials which I will again put to you later ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: ... and in the presence of Mabilo, Mamome told Yster not to disclose anything about the gun.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And Mabilo is an outsider, is that correct?  He is not a member of the Force?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was just an ordinary citizen.

ADV DE JAGER: And he is a witness to this handing over of this gun and he also heard that the receiver is being told not to disclose anything about this, may I say, illegal handing over of the gun?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: May I proceed Mr Chairman?  I am not certain whether Commissioner De Jager ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He is represented, he appears, it is the same man I take it on the list of persons represented by Mr Stander?

MR VISSER: What is more Mr Chairman, his affidavit appears at numbered page 25 in the Bundle that was given to us, marked number 2, page 25.  I don't know whether your Bundles had been marked.
	Oh, I am sorry, I am sorry, I understand it is my Attorney's markings.  Can I hand up my copy to you so long and you can look at it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What Bundle is this?

MR VISSER: I am terribly sorry, I didn't realise that it had not been handed to you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Stander will apparently hand in that.

MR STANDER: Unfortunately Mr Chairman, that Bundle that will be handed to you now, is not in any way attested by a Commissioner of Oaths.  It will be done through the period of this morning.
	Do you remember I gave you Bundles yesterday afternoon, but you gave it back to me this morning.  This is the same Bundle we are talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the old Bundle or the new Bundle?

MR STANDER: This is number 2, so that is the new Bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Page?

MR VISSER: 25.  Do you need another copy Mr Chairman, for the other Commissioners, I can hand up mine.  You've now got three copies and we've got none, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he here, Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: Unfortunately not at this stage Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he available, he must be, you consulted with him and he is going to come and swear to the affidavit, I take it?

MR STANDER: We have arranged for him to be here.  But I can't give you any assurance whether he will be here today.

MR VISSER: Please allow me to complete the circle by referring you also to Bundle B, page 116.

CHAIRPERSON: We referred to this yesterday, didn't we?

MR VISSER: And all I want to refer to you at the moment Mr Motsamai, if Mr Mabilo would come and give evidence, do you think that he will support the evidence which you just gave this morning about him being present when the gun was handed over?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not understand you quite well, sir.

MR VISSER: According to you, if Mr Mabilo spoke the truth, he will come and tell us exactly what you told us, this morning, isn't that so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In other words, you are not aware of any reason why Mr Mabilo would come and lie to the Committee about this issue, if he was present, if it happened?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't think there is any reason for Mr Mabilo to come and lie if he is requested to come and testify.

MR VISSER: Yes, can I just deal with Violent Street.  You made a big thing of that, didn't you Mr Motsamai.  A sticker that was on the fifth floor, at the entrance.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he said it was at the entrance, he said it was in the passage.

MR VISSER: Yes, somewhere on the floor.  Violent Street.  Do you know where that came from, where that object, the sign, came from?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know.  I indicated that I found it there.  Who put it on the wall, I do not know.

MR VISSER: I see.  So you would not be able to deny that this was an advertisement of a film, a film by the name of Violent Street?  You wouldn't?  Would you deny that?	It was a sticker referring to the film Violent Street.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not so.  It is not a sticker, it is a board.

MR VISSER: All right, call it a board.  Were there other boards on the other floors that you remember?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were not boards, they were placards.

MR VISSER: All right, were there other placards on the other floors that you remember?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In offices, yes.

MR VISSER: Tell us what that placard said, or that placards, what did they say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Most of it, I won't specifically mention which placard said what, but most of the placards were about SACP, African National Congress, PAC, AZAPO and others.

MR VISSER: Yes, was there one that said Anaconda?  My Attorney is stopping me here, perhaps I misunderstood something Mr Chairman, may I just take instructions?
	I withdraw that question, Mr Chairman.  The point is I want to put to you that the fact that this placard, board or sticker, whatever you want to call it that said Violent Street, had nothing sinister to do with it as you attempted to suggest.	I am sure you will disagree with what I have just put.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a somewhat unusual sticker to have in a police station, isn't it Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: My people will come and give evidence Mr Chairman, and of course you will ask them that and perhaps they have an explanation.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained that was Violent Street, that is why that sticker was put on the wall.

MR VISSER: Yes, they advertised the fact that this was the place where the Security Branch personnel assault people, and that was the reason for that sign, that is your evidence, isn't that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is where I said I found the sticker there and when I got there I knew that that whole section was Violent Street.  Even when I was newly appointed there, people were already tortured in that section.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, can I just interrupt you there because I don't think it was an accurate interpretation.  The witness, as far as I understood him, did not say that I explained, I have explained that it was a Violent Street, he said it was explained to me that that was a particular floor, that is why the Violent Street sticker was there.

MR VISSER: My understanding and recollection of the evidence was that he was asked specifically and he said it was called Violent Street, because that is where he assaulted people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and he has now said as my brother has put it to you, he has just now said it was explained to me, and that accords with the previous evidence that I was told that is where people were assaulted.

MR VISSER: I've got no problem with that, the point that I am just making here ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The point my brother is making is that the interpretation is incorrect, and should be rectified.  The interpretation now.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I was not querying you.