Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Some comrades who were minors at the time yes, they were bullied into partaking in that arrest, intimidated by the police and the gangsters that were involved at the time, who had to benefit everything by us being arrested.

MR BLACK: Are you saying therefore that those comrades who brought one of your co-accused to the house and disapproved of it, of what had taken place, are you saying those people were either not true comrades or that they were intimidated or collaborators with the police?   Is that what you are saying?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: They were intimidated, yes, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: What time did they bring this person to the house, Mr Black, do you know?

MR BLACK: At about two o'clock in the afternoon, the next day, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Black, were the police present when Ratane was brought to the house by the comrades?

MR BLACK: No, Mr Chairman. What happened was the comrades had heard about this.  I will go into further consultations in detail and get names, if necessary.  They sought out these people who they could find and they brought accused number 6 in the original trial, to the house.  The police were not present.  And they wanted to leave the Mr Ratane there under some security, and one of the comrades said well, let us rather call the police, and they summoned the police to the house.  That is what I gather, what I can clarify.  But what I am getting at, do you know Aubrey,
a comrade by the name of Aubrey?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I know comrade Aubrey.

MR BLACK: Yes. Is he also intimidated or a sell-out?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: In fact, comrade Aubrey was corrupt.

MR BLACK: Corrupt?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: There had been a power struggle within the ranks of comrades and comrade Aubrey saw this as an opportunity to seize power and I think he used it to the best of his ability.

MR BLACK: Saw what to seize power?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Seize power that he be at the helm of the leadership of the liberated zone Russia.

MR BLACK: But what did he use to seize power?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Every opportunity that arose like this one, he would want to make the most of it.

MR BLACK: In what way?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That he should influence comrades badly, he should create division.

MR BLACK: So it was an internal power struggle?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, there was a power struggle.  It did give a bit of resistance in this direction ...(intervention)

MR BLACK: So he wasn't collaborating or intimidated by the police?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: As I have indicated, that he is corrupt. He saw this as an opportunity to climb the ladder of leadership.

MR BLACK: Corrupt in what sense?  That is what I am trying to get at.  You are saying  ... (intervention).

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Corrupt in a sense that he created division amongst comrades.

MR BLACK: Yes.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: He wanted to be at the helm of of the leadership of comrades, and the problem is, with people like comrade Aubrey, they are the people who want to stand out there and give instructions and they cannot go down and toil with the masses.  Firstly, you wouldn't get him in operation clean-ups, he wouldn't involve himself in that.  When it was time to deal with gangsters, members that you know you are putting your life at risk in dealing with, he wouldn't put his life in danger.  But he was the kind of leadership that would want to stand out there, issue instruction, at the end of the day and go and sleep in the comfort of his home.

MR BLACK: Okay.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he in fact seize the leadership?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, M'Lord, I gather immediately after police had intimidated the other minors, he was at the forefront of this so-called comrades who had been involved in this manhunt or whatever.

JUDGE WILSON: But did he remain as the leader of the comrades in that area?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: M'Lord, it didn't take long before things went to where they were supposed to. It took only three months.  In September, right after we had spent some time in trial, the whole thing went back and there were no longer comrades but it was now a gangster called Ninjas. So apparently he shot himself in the legs, because the whole thing now backfired against him, and there was no longer a comradeship for that matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, who was the leader of the comrades in your area, prior to the 2nd of July?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Myself, Absalom Kubela, Patrick Mashang and Elias Ratane.

MR BLACK: May I continue?  Thanks.  So Elias Ratane was one of the leaders?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: And you are aware of the fact that he was caught and handed over to the police by comrades?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: All I am aware of is that he was arrested by a combination of police and those gang members and yes, some comrades.

MR BLACK: You keep on saying gang members.  What gang members are you talking about?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: There was a gang member, there was a gangster, in fact, that was aligned with the situation in the tavern above, where Hendrik used, his buddies in fact, who used to come to him for liquor and who would defend him in many ways, who would be involved rather in quelling that we should enforce a consumer boycott.  There was this gangster called Bambos Splash.

MR BLACK: Who?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Bambos Splash.

MR BLACK: Okay. I will make enquiries about that.  To get to the Masupa household. I put it to you that you forced a person to drive you to a garage or wherever, to collect petrol and to fill a five litre can of petrol. Is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Forced, I don't believe.  We requested someone to ferry us to the fuel station.

MR BLACK: But there are different ways of requesting one.  Did he have a choice?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, he had a choice.

MR BLACK: Okay.  It is a Mr Sibisi.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And was he present when the burning took place?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, he was not.

MR BLACK: No.  And you also, as far as the burning is concerned, I will put it to you, the evidence is - well, let's just paint a picture.  This is a four-bedroomed house with a door entrance to the kitchen and a door to one of the ...(intervention)

MR CURRIN: I think my learned friend means a four-roomed house.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, he said before an ordinary four-roomed house. It has now become a four-bedroomed house.

MR BLACK: No, it is a four-roomed house.  There is a door to the kitchen and there's an entrance door, is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: The meter box which is referred to, that is referred to as a meter box, that controls the lights inside the house, is situated outside the house, is that so?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Yes.  The evidence of one of the victims will be to the effect that they were all gathered, the parties inside were gathered watching TV, the lights suddenly went off, darkness.  There was the door was opened and the name Manta was called out.  Let's stop there.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We approached the house and we knocked and a voice from inside said come in and we went in.

JUDGE WILSON: Were the lights on?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, M'Lord, the lights were on because I could see that someone was making tea. I just can't recall who was it, who was making tea.

ADV DE JAGER: And the TV?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We entered through the kitchen. I wouldn't see whether the TV was on in that room or whatever, living room.

MR BLACK: If I may just complete that.  Give a clearer picture. The parties were sitting watching television, the lights went off and then somebody came in and then the lights went on again, when people had entered the house.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I don't understand the question.