Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

SISI KHAMPEPE: : ...discussion by Capt Loots of the needto eliminate Father Makatshwe by taking other actions other thanthe ones that had failed?

ANSWER: Chair it's very difficult at this point to takemy thoughts back 10 years and to tell you what exactly we discussedor how we felt when we returned at that time when we returnedto our offices.   If I were to tell you that I reported back thiswould be the normal procedure, you would
4. report /...
316 J HECHTER
report back whether you had been successful or unsuccessful. The exact course of events I cannot tell you, I assume that Imust have informed him what happened and that he would have reportedback to then Brigadier Smit.   Unfortunately I can't help youin this regard.

JUDGE WILSON: : These rifles, as I understand from yourapplication were fitted with silencers and sub-sonic cartridgesso they would have made very little noise?

ANSWER: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : Did you know that Brigadier Basie Smitwhen he made this suggestion to you about pills, had been in thenarcotics department for some time?

ANSWER: I knew this and it appeared somewhat discomfortingto me.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman could I be afforded the opportunityto ask one question to the witness, it's a question that I didnot ask right at the start?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter we've made no testimony availablewith regard to your political motivation which was the same inevery case.   Was the political motivation for your action withregards to Father Makatshwa the same as with regard to the previousincident?

ANSWER: That is positively the case Chair, we could notarrest him, could not dare to arrest him, especially not in Shoshunguwe.  If we were to then release him there he would have been ableto harm the Government of the day to such an extent.   At thattime he had already mobilised youth, if he had been detained therewould have been mass mobilisation possible.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you then confirm the correctness of your
4. political /...
MR DU PLESSIS 317 J HECHTER
political motivation as mentioned in your application?

ANSWER: I do so every time.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
318

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman I then beg leave to call W/OPaul Van Vuuren on the same.   You will find that on page 74 ofthe application.   Mr Chairman if I could perhaps apply againfor an amendment in respect of the deeds?   The reference to "Regsverydeling"there should not be included and what should be included is "Oortredingsingevolge die Wet op Wapens en Ammunisie".   There shouldbe a mention with regard to transgressions with regard to theAct regarding Weapons and Ammunition and not obstruction of justice.
PAUL JACOBUS JOHANSEN VAN VUUREN (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren you were present to here thetestimony of Captain Hechter, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: I'm not going to ask you to repeat this testimonyword for word.   Would you agree to his testimony?

ANSWER: I agree with his testimony.

<UNKNOWN>: Is there any aspects Mr Van Vuuren which youwould want to add to the testimony of Captain Hechter?

ANSWER: No particular evidence, no.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position he merely confirms the evidencethat has been given?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes Mr Chairman I don't, unless the Committeewants Mr Van Vuuren to give his specific version, I can do thatbut he has given an indication that he confirms the same version.  I'm in the Committee's hands in that regard Mr Chairman, I'mjust trying to save time.
QUESTION BY MEMBER OF COMMITTEE

<UNKNOWN>: You were involved in both the incidents referred
4b to? /...
319 P J J VAN VUUREN
to?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren also with respect to the aspectsemphasised by Captain Hechter in his cross-examination which youagreed to his answers to those questions in cross-examination?

ANSWER: Yes I would agree with is or confirm his testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you were concerned, where did yourinstructions come from?

ANSWER: My instructions normally came from Lt or nowCaptain Hechter and Capt or now Major or now Col Loots.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: I was accountable to Capt Hechter.

JUDGE WILSON: : In your application you referred to thisincident when you were told to eliminate the priest by givinghim Mandrax tablets, do you remember that?

ANSWER: I can remember it.

JUDGE WILSON: : And you said you then discussed this withMajor Loots, is that so?

ANSWER: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : But you didn't come to any decision whenor how he should be eliminated?

ANSWER: Major Flip Loots at that time told us to simplyleave the matter until another occasion, when another occasionbecame available.

JUDGE WILSON: : ...report back to Brigadier Basie Smit?

ANSWER: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : There was then an argument or extreme strongwords between Captain Hechter and General Smit?

ANSWER: That is correct.
4b JUDGE /...
320 P J J VAN VUUREN

JUDGE WILSON: : ...his investigation into Captain Le Grangeand Sgt Van der Merwe?

ANSWER: No that's not correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : ...that we do not trust him after his investigationwith regard to Captain Jack Le Grange and Sgt Van der Merwe.

ANSWER: That is the case, that is why we didn't trusthim but that's not what we argued about.   Captain Hechter andBrigadier Smit at that time argued over the manner in which FatherMakatshwa was to be eliminated, specifically with regard to theMandrax tablet.   At that time, Captain Hechter did not considerthe operation worth continuing.
Brigadier Basie Smit wanted to know why we did not want to continuewith the operation and there was an argument between him and CaptainHechter in this regard.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren when you said you stand by theevidence of Captain Hechter, are you saying to us that what hehas told us disclosed everything?

ANSWER: As far as I know I have nothing to add to this.

<UNKNOWN>: Were the windows of the Kombi covered in anyway?

ANSWER: If I remember correctly there were curtains infront of the windows.   Yes, it might have been that the windowsmight have been slightly tinted with certain material which Idon't know of.

<UNKNOWN>: ...things like (indistinct).

ANSWER: This is 10 years ago Your Honour I can't rememberwhether it was the case or not.

<UNKNOWN>: ...your application is what you are not sureof, is that what you are telling us?
4B ANSWER: /...
MR MPSHE 321 P J J VAN VUUREN

ANSWER: No this is not the case, I am certain of that
which stands in my application.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : ...of your application, the third paragraph
  "...the minibus had tinted windows."

ANSWER: Chair the minibus had tinted windows and therewere curtains on the inside of the vehicle.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You and Captain Hechter were travellingin the same Kombi, the fact that the windows were blackened outand there were curtains would be known by both of you?

ANSWER: This is very long ago Chair I cannot tell youexactly, I can remember that there were curtains and I can rememberthat the windows were tinted.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Don't suppose(?) my question, I'm sayingif you and Captain Hechter travelled in the same Kombi and ifthat Kombi's windows were blackened or darkened, both of you shouldhave known of that aspect not so?

ANSWER: I believe so Chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...Captain Hechter never mentioned thefact that the windows were blackened out?

ANSWER: I agree with you.