Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

JUDGE MGOEPE: But why should this be a problem, just tell us whether you were suspended or not, it doesn't matter for what reason, whether for the assault of A or B or C, the question is simply at the time when you left Mamelodi to come to Bloemfontein were you suspended, it doesn't matter for what reason, we first just want to know whether you were suspended?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I hear him talking about suspension and I'm not sure what he is talking about, maybe he should tell me what it was in connection with, I am not aware of any suspension.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am asking you, were you suspended at the time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No I was never suspended.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you suspended at any time prior to that at some stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was just arrested and until I was sentenced.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And thereafter were you not suspended from
the police?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I stayed as a prisoner until I was sentenced.  No official came to me after I was arrested.  I appeared in court and then I was sentenced.  I don't know what procedures they followed but they never approached me, and they didn't even give me any form to sign.  I was never suspended, I was just arrested.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did, after that case, after serving your jail term did you resume police duties?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I'm a prisoner at the moment, I never worked thereafter.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Ngo you know that I am asking you in relation to the time before the killing of Mr Venter, don't you know that?  You are aware that I am asking you whether you were suspended at any time before the killing of Mr Venter, you know that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No I was never suspended.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now what is the assault that you are talking about?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am not the one who spoke about the assault, he is the one who spoke about the assault, he said I was suspended about an assault, I never made mention of any assault.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What is the arrest that you are referring to, the arrest that you are referring to?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am talking about this very same case that I was arrested for.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But why tell me about the arrest of this case when I am asking you about the period before the commission of the murder?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I explained that I was never suspended or arrested before Mr Venter's incident.  I was arrested regarding this case and I was sentenced.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now if you were never suspended, prior to this incident, when Mr Visser asked you whether you were suspended in relation to an assault, why do you have to first ask assault on who, why didn't you just simply say no I was never suspended?  Why did you want to know who was assaulted?  What was the need for that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I did not understand as to why did he ask me whether was I suspended for assault and therefore I asked him assault on who.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you knew, you knew that you had not been suspended at all.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was just explaining that I was never suspended.  I was thinking that he did not understand that I am saying I was never suspended.

MR VISSER: Let's go on to something else.  The person Erasmus that you refer to as the person who gave you instructions, do you see him here in the hall today?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes there he is over there.

MR VISSER: Is it the person sitting with his shirt sleeves second from the left in the front row?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes he's got a white shirt on.

MR VISSER: The witness identifies Senior Superintendent Erasmus Mr Chairman, that is the person who has made an affidavit before you.  Now that person, when we speak about Erasmus I'm going to talk about that person, you say you received instructions from him in January 1989 to kill Venter, is that your evidence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, February, no I am sorry I was right, January.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I did not say I was given instructions by Mr Erasmus, I said I was told by Colonel Coetzee with, and Colonel Shaw that I was to go and kill Mr Venter, that's what I said.

MR VISSER: You're quite right.  But Erasmus was present, he was present at the time when you received the instructions from Coetzee?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes he was present.

MR VISSER: And that was in January 1989?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you remember the date well, the month well and the year?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I cannot tell exactly when, whether it was in January, I did not give a precise date because I did not know.

MR VISSER: Would you agree that the murder took place, the assassination took place on the 3rd of February 1989 according to the court judgment which I've got before me, would you agree with that, the 3rd of February?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Is it also correct that your evidence was that you came from Bloemfontein from Pretoria approximately a week before the assassination, do you remember that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No Sir.

MR VISSER: Well when did you come through from Pretoria to Bloemfontein, did you come on the 3rd of February, or did you come before that time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I came before that time.  It was on a Thursday and I committed the murder on Friday.

MR VISSER: The next day?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Well would it surprise you that Superintendent Erasmus will tell this Committee that he was on leave at the time and he only came back after Venter had been assassinated, he was at Hartenbos?  Would that surprise you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It will not surprise me because I found him there and usually they themselves, when there's an operation of any kind the senior officials are present, even if they don't issue instructions but they are just there to observe what is happening, and normally when he goes on leave such operations take place.

MR VISSER: Yes, and if Erasmus says he was not in Bloemfontein at the time he would be lying as far as you are concerned?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The day I arrived here he was there.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now a strange thing happens at this meeting between you and Coetzee and Shaw and Erasmus because according to the statement which I have in front of me which is attached to your application at page 1 Mr Chairman, the middle of the last paragraph, it's fairly illegible, it starts with "on my arrival I reported...", I read the following words,
"Colonel Coetzee introduced me to Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus".
is that what you meant to say?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was explaining there that he said I must greet them.

MR VISSER: Do you understand the meaning of the word "introduce"?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, there are many words of introducing a person but he did say to me that here is Lieutenant Erasmus and Lieutenant Shaw please greet them.

MR VISSER: Why would he have to say that to you Mr Ngo please, and for  what earthly reason would he have to say that to you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It is because I haven't seen him for a long time, I'm not sure.

MR VISSER: And you didn't know to greet them from your own accord, somebody had to tell you to greet them, is that what you are saying?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They found me there.

MR VISSER: That's not the answer to the question.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was going to greet them but the manner in which they walked in I was just told here is Lieutenant Erasmus and here is Lieutenant Shaw, greet them.

MR VISSER: And I am asking why was it necessary for Coetzee to tell you that, because you knew Shaw and you knew Erasmus from before that, not so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There is nothing I can explain more than that, that is what he said on that particular day, I'm quoting him, that's what he said that day.