Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: Do you draw the line there at - the question was, people can get tortured if they cooperate, people can get tortured if they don't cooperate, where do you draw the line because on your evidence you've mentioned that Mr Gordhan was completely uncooperative whereas that wasn't the case with Mr Lalla yet both were subjected to the same form of treatment.  Where do you draw the line, who don't you torture?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I think that I attempted to describe it in my evidence that in the case of Mr Lalla it was cooperation up to a certain point and then he started to withhold and that is when I went over in the application of violence on him and the circumstances of interrogation determined that.

MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson, with your indulgence.
	Mr Botha, I was in fact subsequent to your departure after the assault questioned both by Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma about the so-called Owl, in other words the attempt to persuade me continued after your visit to Bethlehem, were you aware of that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR GORDHAN: I actually put it to you that in fact all you needed to do and the Committee might want to know that on a virtually a weekly basis Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma would come back to Durban, they would attend one form of debriefing or briefing sessions and they would return on a Sunday night or a Monday morning to Bethlehem, at much cost I might add to the taxpayer but they could have been briefed on this matter and they could have asked the questions, Mr Botha?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson, that may be correct but directly after that I went to Cape Town for another aspect of the operation.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, I also put - and that's the second point Chairperson after which I finish, the second point is the issue of cooperation doesn't really arise here.  Well for two reasons, the one is you can never expect your enemy to cooperate with you but the second and more important one in this context is as Mr Lax pointed out all the information connected with Vula was public domain information soon after the arrest of the people on the 12th July.  So the issue of cooperation never really arose.  Was the real issue one of breaking my morale and subjugating one to your will and so on?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I think that somewhere we have a communication breakdown because there is a tremendous gap here, I don't understand the question and I also don't understand it with reference to Mr Lax's question, there seems to be another gap there.  Perhaps if some explanation could be provided?

MR GORDHAN: I put it back to you.  I said the issue of cooperation doesn't arise between a detainee and an interrogator.  So the first reason being that they allegedly, not allegedly, they were enemies, that you wouldn't expect a detainee like me to actually cooperate with you?  Particularly if I'm in solitary confinement for month on month on month.  The second and more important fact here was that you were asking one to cooperate about disclosing information that I knew that you knew and that was in the public domain so why get me to cooperate?  Just keep me in a cell until you're finished your so-called information gathering and let the politicians decide what to do with us which is what happened anyway?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: So what is your question then, Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Why engage in assaults and why look for so-called cooperation and so on when in fact that's something that (a) you shouldn't expect, and (b) you didn't actually require?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I did not seek cooperation from Mr Gordhan, I wanted answers from him in terms of who the informer was.  His attitude was non-cooperative, I was looking for an answer.

MR GORDHAN: Well you used the word cooperation.  In my vocabulary when I talk to people like you it doesn't exist so let's leave it at that, Chairperson, I made my point.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I now clarify something?
	Mr Botha, it has been put to you that detainees could not be expected to cooperate, that you could not expect this from them, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR VISSER: What was your experience then?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The experience that we had from arrested terrorists that some of them would cooperate within a minute and others simply never would cooperate.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Botha, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED