Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As far as I can remember what Major du Plessis told Captain Venter, was that they had to arrest the three deceased at the airport.

ADV LAMEY: Did they have to pretend to be policemen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't remember if that was so, I don't know, I can't recall.

ADV LAMEY: So, regarding the matter of the arrests, you're not sure?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I'm sure that that is what the instructions were, that's all I know.

ADV LAMEY: Are you sure that the instructions were to arrest them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's true.

ADV LAMEY: And they could only have done that by identifying themselves as policemen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

ADV LAMEY: And you and - you also testified that you and Captain van Zyl were also in the parking area in your vehicle?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

ADV LAMEY: If the Askaris had to arrest them, why could you not have done this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because we were known to them.

ADV LAMEY: But what would the difference have been if the Askaris had said that they were security police, then surely they could have been linked to the police and their disappearance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They were unknown in this area.

UNKNOWN: Outsiders would not have been able to identify these Askaris as policemen, isn't that the point Mr Lamey?  (transcriber's own translation}

ADV LAMEY: That is so.  Thank you, I understand the remark.
	But if this was true, then other people could have noticed you and Captain van Zyl in the airport as well as your vehicles?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They could.

ADV LAMEY: What purpose would it have served to have these Askaris arrest these persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We did not move around and no-one identified us at the airport.

ADV LAMEY: It did not happen like that but it could have.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could have but it did not.

ADV LAMEY: The applicants I represent will say that it did not happen in this way at all, they were instructed to park the minibus there and to wait there, it was indicated where they had to wait by Captain Venter.  They saw that Captain Venter and other White men were moving towards the airport building, then they were there and then they were not.
	I suppose that in view of the fearlessness of these Pebco 3 that you could just as well have intercepted them at the airport and could have told them that they were being taken for interrogation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV LAMEY: Because these people were know to you and as you said Hashe had been interrogated before already.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

ADV LAMEY: Did you see exactly how the Askaris did the interception?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I could see - as far as I could see, yes.

ADV LAMEY: What did you see?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I saw that they persuaded them to get into the bus and thereafter they went to Mr Hashe to where he was parked, they persuaded him and he was helped into the minibus without any resistance.

ADV LAMEY: So they first took away the two and Hashe while Hashe was parking his car?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

ADV LAMEY: I want to put it to you that I find that version very strange and improbable because Hashe would immediately have realised that there was a problem and that he would have ensured that he would get away.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV LAMEY: Do you say that this didn't happen like this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV LAMEY: May I just have a moment please Mr Chairman?
	You also testified that you did not see whether any photos of the Pebco 3 were shown to the Askaris.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I said that on the morning of the 8th, the three photos of the deceased were given to Captain Venter.

ADV LAMEY: Yes, to Captain Venter but not to the Askaris?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.

ADV LAMEY: But they will testify - that is the Askaris, that no photos of these three persons were shown to them.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot comment on that.

ADV LAMEY: Furthermore they'll say that they were never given any instruction to intercept these persons at the airport, as a matter of fact they didn't even know - that Mr Koole and Mogoai, what the purpose of their going to the airport would be.
	They were just given instructions from Captain Venter to meet them at a designated point.  They waited there and at a point it was told that they had to get something to eat and thereafter Captain Venter and other members arrived and they were then said to follow a vehicle which they did right up to the airport and they were shown where to park.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They did make the arrest at the airport.

ADV LAMEY: Were these three persons - the Pebco 3, were they handcuffed on their arrival at Post Chalmers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot remember that.

ADV LAMEY: Because Mr Mogoai and Koole say that it did happen in this way, at one stage they were handcuffed before they arrived at Post Chalmers.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All that I can recall is that they were handcuffed to their camp beds the next morning, that's all that I can remember regarding handcuffs.

ADV LAMEY: The morning to the camp beds, are you now referring to the early morning hours?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV LAMEY: These camp beds, are they fold away camp beds?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

ADV LAMEY: What would be the purpose of handcuffing them to these camp beds?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Only to ensure that they do not escape.

ADV LAMEY: Surely they could have just walked away with their camp bed and the handcuffs?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I'm sure you could.

ADV LAMEY: The road that passes Post Chalmers goes by - is close the house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But is this witness not saying they were chained onto the beds or did I not hear correctly?

ADV LAMEY: He said to camp beds.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

ADV LAMEY: The witness said that they were chained to camp beds and the point is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you are saying that they can just stand up and walk away with the handcuffs, beds and all?

ADV LAMEY: The point is Mr Chairman, that the camp bed is quite a moveable object, you take it out of the vehicle and you fold it up ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should restrict ourselves to important aspects of the matter.

ADV LAMEY: As it please you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mogoai, says that he was handcuffed in an old disused farmhouse and that he saw that Mr Godolozi and Galela were in the cells, what do you have to say about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny this most strongly, we did not use the cells.

ADV LAMEY: Mr Koole will also testify that he can remember you, your name and that you were Niewoudt of the security branch, can you remember him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot.

ADV LAMEY: And he will also say that or both of them will say that spent two nights at Post Chalmers.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is not correct.

ADV LAMEY: Are you sure of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I am positive.

ADV LAMEY: And before they left - Captain Venter was still there before their departure, they left before Captain Venter and he told them that they had to return to Glen Connor that morning and Mr Koole will testify that you told him how to go or to travel to Glen Connor via Jansenville and Graaff-Reinet.  This was another road,  a different one that they had travelled the evening from the airport to Post Chalmers.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot remember that, the only Askari that I knew who was present was Moss whom I knew personally.

ADV LAMEY: You say that there was an Askari called Moss?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.