Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was a meeting held on the 14th, that is there was a meeting held two weeks before the 14th meeting.  That was where the Boipatong attack was discussed but the order to attack Boipatong was issued on the 14th June.

MS TANZER: This meeting took ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What happened at the meeting two weeks prior to the 14th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That's where Peens arrived as well as Themba Khosa.  They came to discuss the Boipatong matter.  There was an Induna present at the stadium, they said Boipatong should be attacked.  Thereafter, Peens said he will supply the weapons, the firearms.  The person who was interpreting that Afrikaans was Gatchene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said we would get our instructions from the Induna on the 14th June.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, that is what I remember about that meeting.

MS TANZER: Do you remember who else spoke at that meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The meeting of the 14th?

MS TANZER: The meeting two weeks prior to the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember.

MS TANZER: In your affidavit on page 19 at paragraph 6 you state that Themba Khosa spoke at that meeting and that you said a certain insect should be killed, referring to the Boipatong residents that there was a certain Inkatha member had been killed in the location.  Do you recall this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, he did say that the dogs of Boipatong should be killed because at that time IFP members had been killed in Boipatong.

MS TANZER: You further state that the Induna's agreed with what Themba Khosa had said, is that correct?  Do you stand by that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: In your affidavit you also said, it's still paragraph 7, that Peens and Danie who you said is a member of the SAP said they would supply Rooikop, okay, who is a policeman known to you, with weapons and that he would give them to Themba Khosa who would bring them to the hostel.  Do you remember that, do you stand by that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I remember Peens speaking at that meeting although I do not remember Danie quite well.  I think it was just Peens who was at the meeting not Danie.

MS TANZER: Are you sure Danie was not at the meeting?  You mention him in your affidavit?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I'm sure.  Peens was the person present at the meeting.  We only met Danie on our way to attack Boipatong, that's where I saw him.

MS TANZER: Do you remember who accompanied Peens to the meeting, Mr Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Chaka.

MS TANZER: Chaka being the policeman?

MS TANZER: He is a policeman who works in Vanderbijl in the murder and robbery unit.

MS TANZER: Now at this meeting of the 14th June were you aware that on the next day you were going to attack Sebokeng, Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton with the other people that you had mentioned?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we were not aware of it, we heard it from Mtwana Zulu.

MS TANZER: When did you hear it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The order was issued on the same day in the evening, I'm not sure of the time.  That was when he told me we should go and attack Sebokeng.

MS TANZER: And Everton that is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MS TANZER: Were there lots of meetings held at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes there were meetings that were held amongst the hostel dwellers and sometimes Themba Khosa would be present at those meetings.

MS TANZER: Would the Indunas always preside at these meetings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it will always be an Induna, Gatchene, Indwana and others who were from Natal.

MS TANZER: How did you know when a meeting was taking place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was a siren and that would be sounded, that was how we knew a meeting would be held.

MS TANZER: Do you speak Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know of Sesotho, I speak Zulu.

MS TANZER: Do you understand Afrikaans or English?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not understand either language.

MS TANZER: Do you know personally any dweller of the KwaMadala Hostel who was killed in the Boipatong location?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I remember that there was a person from Natal who was killed although I do not remember the person's name.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of complaints ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't speak Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I do not, I speak Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I can only catch a word here and there.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you speak it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only speak Zulu.

MS TANZER: Did you have any reservations about yourself participating in the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not.

MS TANZER: Did you have any personal motive for attacking the people of Boipatong, like revenge or anger?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the reason we attacked because it was something issued by IFP members but I had no personal grudge against the people of Boipatong.

MS TANZER: So why did you participate in the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was because it was IFP policy that if you are a male or you were above 16 years of age you were required to go on attacks.  It was only women and children who were allowed to remain behind.

MS TANZER: And how old were you in June '92, do you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, I don't remember.

MS TANZER: You mention in your affidavit on page 19 at paragraph 7 that weapons were delivered by Themba Khosa to the hostel and kept in the ceiling.  Can you describe the ceiling in which these weapons were kept?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was made of corrugated iron and there were holes in which you could put these weapons.

MS TANZER: So okay, do you know a policeman by the name of Rooikop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I know him.

MS TANZER: Had you seen him at the KwaMadala Hostel prior to the Boipatong attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I started knowing him when we went on the attack at Boipatong, I never saw him at the hostel.  I also saw him when I was arrested.

MS TANZER: Did you ever see him give weapons to Themba Khosa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say that I saw him, I only heard Themba Khosa speaking about it but I did not see him personally.

MS TANZER: Can you tell us about the meeting that took place on the 14th June 1992 three days before the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was held on the 14th, that's where we were told that we were going to attack Boipatong and the police, Peens and the other police would be waiting for us outside the hostel near the BP garage and the weapons were displayed at the stadium by Daki Xongo, that was when we were given Indelesi.

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about the meeting of the 15th.

MS TANZER: Of the 14th.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the 14th, yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's the meeting on the 14th.  No, on the 14th we were told that we should attack - I'm sorry I did not get that question properly?

MS TANZER: Alright, on the meeting of the 14th, who were the Indunas that presided at this meeting, do you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Gatchene and Mtwana Zulu, as well as Daki Xongo and others whom I did not know.

MS TANZER: And what did they tell you at this meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said the day had come that we should prepare ourselves for the attack on the 17th June.  That was when we learned that we would meet the police at the BP garage on the 17th.

MS TANZER: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you supposed to meet the police?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Outside the hostel towards the BP garage, that is outside the KwaMadala Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Near the BP garage?