Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

ADV SIBANYONI: Excuse me Mr Malusi.  What would have happened to you if you have refused to go along with Mzwandile?

LUSINDISO POYO: He told me that he would kill me instantly because when we got there Mzwandile said "no one is going to leave here.  Anyone who would try and leave here, would reach his destination as a dead corpse".

ADV SIBANYONI: Did you voluntarily watch and ensure that nobody interfered or were you under any ...

LUSINDISO POYO: Honestly I didn't watch, because if you could catch me, I was not there, it was just my body.  I couldn't do anything, I was just watching because he was in front of me.  For that matter, he was the only person that I was watching.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Malusi.  You may proceed.

MR MALUSI: Thank you sir.   You would have the Committee believe that your testimony is to the effect that you were under duress, you were out of your mind, you were only present there because your body was there, your mind was not there?  Is that what you would have the Committee believe?

LUSINDISO POYO: What I am saying sir, in some instances like digging, if I am being asked whether I was watching or I was alert or not, because nothing wouldn't have happened if it was to happen because I was on guard.  I wasn't mentally on guard.

MR MALUSI: First on the killing sir, I want to put it to you that it was a collective decision.  Mzwandile may have initiated that all the APLA members should be killed, but it was your collective decision as the ANC group that was there, that the APLA members should be killed, what is your comment to that?

LUSINDISO POYO: Right from the first to the last minute, nobody told me what is going to happen or asked what my suggestion was.  Nobody consulted me in the matter.

MR MALUSI: If we are to believe you, Mzwandile was the main man and if there was any discussion, the discussion was between Mzwandile and Mr Guleni?

LUSINDISO POYO: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR MALUSI: Mzwandile has made a statement, a sworn statement, to the effect that Mr Guleni was actually the person who was in charge, who was giving orders.  May we have your comment on that?

LUSINDISO POYO: I was present and I was sitting in the front seat, that is absolutely not true.   I could tell him all the things that I have just said, I could say it straight in his face.  What he is saying, is not true.

MR MALUSI: After the APLA members were taken from the scene, that is where the first two were injured, when the surviving four were taken from the scene, it is my instruction from Mr Gasmeni that before they were shot, they were stabbed by members of your group, what is your comment to that?

LUSINDISO POYO: Yes, they were stabbed, it is true.    The decision to take them to their last destination, it was due to the fact that Mzwandile's order did not work out when he said they should be stabbed, that is when the decision was taken to finally shoot them.

MR MALUSI: I want to put a proposition to you, that there could have been no other objective in killing at least the four surviving APLA members, there could have been no other objective with regard to their killing, other than to make sure that your group was not prosecuted, that is yourself, Mzwandile and the others, what is your comment on that?

LUSINDISO POYO: Anything would have  - person - other than what happened, I have never thought that I would come across such a thing in my life.  The fact that we did that because we were trying to avoid that it would have been done by somebody who have done that before.  If I was alone and I had to take some decisions there, I wouldn't have taken things that far.

MR MALUSI: Yes, let's just leave that aside.  I am now saying to you the sole purpose, the sole objective of killing the four surviving APLA members was to stop them from going to the police, stop your group from being criminally prosecuted with regard to your actions earlier that day, what is your comment to that, just on that?

LUSINDISO POYO: That is not how I see things, because as far as I heard and as far as I am concerned, if they could let them go, they were going to report back to their organisation and after that, they would come and retaliate.   That was never mentioned, the fact that they were trying to escape prosecution.  It was only mentioned that if they are released or one of us tell the other people about that incident, they would go to their organisation and later come back and revenge.

MR MALUSI: Let's for a moment accept that what you are saying, is correct, that you were only worried about APLA.  Why then on returning to Port St Johns after this whole mission, why then did you not go to your Chairperson or whoever was in charge of the ANC in that region, to inform him or her that as ANC members you have done this?

LUSINDISO POYO: As far as I am concerned, the next day Fundisele left to meet with Mr Mfeketho and he told him about everything.

MR MALUSI: Did you tell anyone, yourself?

LUSINDISO POYO: No, I never mentioned this to anyone, this is a great opportunity for me to take this out of my chest.  The very first person that I told about this, was the person who went to get the statement.  This is for the second time that I am talking about this incident.

MR MALUSI: Just from this point of a political objective, were you not acting contrary to ANC policy at that time in killing the APLA members if we are to accept, if the Committee has to accept your version that you killed them to prevent further hostilities between PAC and ANC?  Were you not acting contrary to ANC policy at that time, which was that political opponents should not be killed and the ANC had effectively suspended the armed struggle at that stage.

LUSINDISO POYO: At the time, I knew nothing about the armed struggle at the time.  As I have mentioned before, how I got myself into this, therefore I couldn't oppose anything.

MR MALUSI: If I can just refer you to your statement on page 12 of the Bundle, on paragraph 34.  You say that he, that is Mzwandile, ordered you or us to dig one big hole.  Your entire statement is in that vein, that you participated in this, but your testimony today ...

CHAIRPERSON: It does not follow that he is contradicting himself, his participation in the plural may very well be a contribution not physically.

MR MALUSI: I take the point, Mr Chairperson.  The point I am trying to make to the applicant is this that on reading his statement, one gets the impression that he is including himself in the activities, he was part of the activity but his testimony today is to the effect that he in fact was out of his mind, to a point he did not know what was happening.  I just want him to clarify that.

LUSINDISO POYO: Chairperson, I want to rectify the fact that I was out of my mind, that is not the case, but what was happening on that day, I was not myself.  To me it looks more like a dream, it is not that I wasn't there or I was out of my mind.  I was okay, but I was even there when Mzwandile said that people should dig a hole, but he did not call people by names.   When I say that Mzwandile told us to dig the hole, yes, he did mention that, but he never mentioned the people's names, and I never practically took the spade and dug the hole.

MR MALUSI: Can you perhaps advise the Committee the specific acts for which you are applying for amnesty?

LUSINDISO POYO: First of all, when I heard about the Truth Commission, when it was said that if there is anyone who knows anything about human rights violation, those people should go forward, I thought that was a call to me because I was there and I knew that there was someone else who would listen to me when I talk about this.  This is my first reason.