Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: My name is Robert Stanford.  I am and have been for a long time a member of the King William's Town Golf Club.   I was present on the evening of the 28th November when this attack took place in the lounge of the club.  There are certain portions of your evidence which sound to me somewhat strange and it's those portions that I want to deal with now, if I may Mr Chairman.  You said that you infiltrated the caddies in the Golf Club and got information from them, didn't you?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You said you acted as a caddie on the course for certain golfers, didn't you?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You said you were paid twenty cents, one rand as a caddie fee?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That I want to tell you is not true.  I want to tell you that in the club at that time we had, I think it was twelve or thirteen black members of the club.  We were and have been a completely non-racial club for many years.  I want to tell you that by Club Resolution in 1992 the caddie fees payable were R15.00 per round.  I want to tell you that if you tell......[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Stanford, the interpreters are needing to translate what you're saying.  I understand it's emotional for you and difficult but.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I just put - let me ask you a question.  How many times did you caddie?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: It should be more that eight times.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Eight times?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I want to tell you that you're telling an untruth when you say you were paid twenty cents or one rand.  That is a lie on your part.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And I want to tell you that what you are saying is devoid of truth.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: When you used the caddies as a basis for information, why did you have to rely on them when you yourself were a caddie?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Why?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Why did you have to rely on information given to you by other caddies when you yourself have admitted to acting as a caddie to glean information?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, if your memory served you well I have talked about debriefing.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I beg your pardon?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I have talked about debriefing - debriefing is where we compare information.  In other words the information that we have received from different sources, process it until we get one final product then if there are still some hassles - go underground and confirm it.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Do you still say that you were only paid twenty cents for carrying a golf bag around in the golf club?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Twenty five cents.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Twenty five cents whatever it was?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Twenty five cents, one cent, fifty cent, once it was twenty five cents and then the other chap had at two rands, someone said it was one rand, I cannot remember all but that was the range.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I want to put it to you that that is not true.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And I'll also want to put it that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me if caddie fees are paid by the individual player or are they paid through the club?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: The caddie fees are paid by the individual player to the caddies as the game ends and if any caddie is underpaid he has an immediate right to complain to the Captain or Committee of the club and they all know what they're supposed to be paid.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Understand it here, Mr Stanford, that we did not belong to some sort of formal association of caddies with a specific mission ...[inaudible]

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I'm merely responding to a question put to me by the Honourable Chairman, telling him what the position is.  Do you want to ask me a question?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Okay, thank you.  Are you aware that in 1992 when you got your information, King William's Town Golf Club was a non-racial club and we had active black, as you call them and white members playing golf together?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Up to this moment I cannot believe that.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I will see if I can obtain a membership list from the club if one still exists of the 1992 members of the Golf Club and hand it to Mr Prior on my right.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Where were they practising?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Sorry?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Where were they practising?  Were they using the full facilities that we were using there?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Were used where?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The facilities that we were using were they using the full facilities?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: They had access to the bar, they had access to the club facilities in every way.  They used the change rooms downstairs, they had lockers downstairs and they played golf.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: ...[inaudible] I mean in practice?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Ja everything, they used all facilities in the club.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Can you remember one?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: One name?  Yes I - it's not fair to give his name here, I'm not prepared to announce his name in public here.  I don't think that's fair - or any of their names but it could be on the list which I will hand in to the Committee later on.
	 You said that you went into the club and spoke to a person who gave you information about the function that was due to take place?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I went to the club and there -  and there got information from?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You told us you got information from somebody inside the club, you said.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, there were many sources part of which was..[intervention]

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Who was he?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I don't know the name.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Who do you think he was, was he the secretary or a member?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I don't know.  I really, really I cannot recall who he was.

MR PRIOR: Mr Stanford his earlier evidence was that he thought the person might be a secretary or a manager of some kind.

CHAIRPERSON: He had an office.

MR PRIOR: He had an office in the club premises, that was his earlier evidence.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: In other words you went into the club premises before the attack and you spoke to a person, because there is an office next to the lounge, you're quite right.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes because noticeable, noticeably he used to be somebody, after the other people are going to their cars but he gets in and I would - on his way he tried to intercept him.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Did you speak to him in the club premises yourself?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And you as a non-member went straight into the club without any difficulty at all?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: What?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You as a non-member of the club went into the clubhouse and spoke to him in the club premises without any difficulty?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: By saying club premises what do you mean because you're saying to me a different thing now.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: No you do not understand..[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Stanford, you need to differentiate between the club premises which is the land on which the club is situated and maybe the buildings or that sort of thing.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I understood in your evidence, if we were to say, that you went into the clubhouse itself because saw an office in the corner where he came from or where he worked and you spoke to him in that area, am I right or wrong?