Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MALAN: Thank you.
	Mr Mbandazayo, may I just ask you to, in re-examination, canvass the issue of the signature.  We may be in the position here where we don't have a valid application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mazete, just on the point which has been raised by the Committee, let me start by - you have been asked regarding the application which is in front of you, the application which was submitted to the Truth Commission, and you indicated to the Committee that it was not filled by yourself, is that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, what I want to know from you, you have been asked by the Committee about the signature, whether after the application was filled and you have been assisted by whoever assisted you during the filling of the application form, were you asked to append your signature at the end of the application form?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Can you please repeat your question, I don't understand your question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After you have completed the application form with the person who was assisting you in filling it, you have already told the Committee that you were asked and this person was filling the application form on your behalf, now I'm asking were you made to sign at the end after he has completed filling the application form on your behalf?  Were you asked to sign the application form?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, in the application that I filled.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you sign the application that you filled?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you were asked by the Committee - in fact let me ask you this way, is the application which is in front of you they application that you filled when you were assisted by those persons who came to the Grootvlei Prison?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you indicate where did you sign the application form?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I signed on that space where it is written: "Deponent".

MR MBANDAZAYO: But you've told us that the signature there is not yours.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I would like to ask for pardon before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: What for?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Because this application, I see this application is printed.  When I was filling this application it was not printed and I used a blue pen but now I see a black pen.  That is why I was confused.

MR MALAN: In what language did you fill it out?  This may be the problem

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I was using Sotho.

MR MALAN: Now then this may be explaining it.  We can check on our records whether we have the original and that simply a translated version has been put before us.  But even that would be difficult to understand because the signature is affixed here or what pretends to be a signature in a different pen, a different writing.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is not your signature you've told us, where it says: "Deponent".  You signed your own signature on the form you filled in in ordinary hand-writing, is that what you are telling us?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete, let me go back to this question of your signature, are you sure that the application you filled was in your own language, Sesotho?  Was it also written in your own language, Sesotho?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I was not given the form that was written in Sesotho, I was only speaking Sesotho and the person who was filling the form was busy writing as I was speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the form written in English?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In hand-writing, not in print?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was printed.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it this form or another form?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It means it is the same form.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you come not to sign it, how did you sign another form

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Like I have already explained to this Committee, the form that I filled, they person asked me to sign that form after he has filled the form.  So I don't know afterwards what happened to that form.

MR MALAN: Are you saying it's not this form before you, the one that you have there?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I do agree that it is the same form.

CHAIRPERSON: But you've told us repeatedly it's not the one you signed.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know whether the person who filled this form wanted to change it or I don't know whether this is the same form that I filled or not but they look similar.

CHAIRPERSON: But the signature you have told us repeatedly is not your signature.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I can fill the form and put the signature and then take that form and make photocopies of it.  My signature will definitely appear on that photocopied document.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the signature on this form a photocopy of your signature?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you sign this piece of paper please?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we will undertake in the meantime to see if we can find any other applications in our office in Cape Town, that may be related to this applicant and which may probably be in Sesotho.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Chairperson, can I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm marking this Exhibit D.  ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Just on that aspect I'm going to your affidavit.  Just look at your affidavit Mr Mazete - let me ask you this way before you look at your affidavit, is that what you have done when you have been requested by the Chairman to put down your signature, is that your signature?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is my signature.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Mazete, I want you to look at the affidavit which is before the Committee and which I started using before we started these proceedings regarding this matter and look at the paragraph 7, below paragraph 7 where it says: "Deponent".

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I do see.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is that your signature which is there at the bottom of that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to be very similar to the signature he has just signed.  The M is the same with a loop in the middle, the g is similar.  ...[inaudible] very unlike the signature on the application.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, I've been placed in the possession of the warning statement of the applicant which was signed in 1993.  It is his original hand-writing, original document where he signed three times, and it will help you in any way I would like to show it to you and hand it in to you.  I would like to beg leave to just hand it in Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If the Committee can bear with me, I just want to go to the applicant and check the papers in front.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I can take another opportunity?  Mr Chairman, I just want to place on record that I was also informed that the accused did actually complete a Section 217 statement which was handed in as an informal(?) confession in the Supreme Court on which he was convicted and found guilty.  Unfortunately there is no copies of those documents in existence anymore and the original is part and parcel of the exhibit list which was handed in in the Supreme Court.  So in actual fact the Section 217 statement was ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to the exhibits?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, as I understand it was handed in in the Supreme Court.  The investigating officer is here.  We're trying to establish what happened to that exhibit list.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Exhibit V.
	Have you got any further questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: There are certain matters I would like to clarify with you please.
	Mr Mazete, you said that you kept the weapons and then you gave them to Mr Mohape for safekeeping.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have anything to do with the weapons after that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Not at all.