Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised to hear that.

MR VISSER: Well you'll see very briefly what the matter is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do proceed Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Page 154 you confirmed, Mr Labuschagne, except that you had rectified that Mr Sam du Preez was not there and you were mistaken there but according to the evidence of Wasserman, Du Preez and Vorster, Sergeant Brooks was also there from Pietermaritzburg who accompanied you?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes that is so, I just omitted to say that.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, may I please be allowed to ask one more question I did not ask?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please do.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.
	Mr Labuschagne, when did the abduction of Dion Cele occur?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was in 1988 round about July.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chair, may I perhaps in re-examination be - thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Labuschagne, just one or two questions flowing from the questions.  You did not have any objection against the abduction, you associated with it and you agreed with it and you had the intention to participate therein?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And your intention there was the same as the other persons who were involved with you in this operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you were also involved with the planning of the operation insofar as regard to Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you were asked for what you applied for amnesty, you applied for conspiracy as well?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused from further attendance.  Counsel and attorney who have taken the trouble of coming down despite the difficulties that were in their way, I must say that your presence here, your assistance and co-operation is appreciated by this Committee.  Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, may we be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Chairperson sorry, before you excuse them?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: I had indicated to you earlier on that I've got a statement from Mrs Celeste Morrison.  I have not had an opportunity to speak to her and there are a few points that are contrary to the evidence that was led in this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: By this witness?

MS THABETHE: No, not necessarily with this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MS THABETHE: Yes, so I just want to put it on record that we might have to call her.  I've made my own opinion that it's not relevant but I would like to speak to her nevertheless.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't spoken yet to her?

MS THABETHE: No, I haven't.

CHAIRPERSON: When is that going to happen?

MS THABETHE: Our investigator has gone to fetch her, she'll be here any time.  If I can be given maybe an opportunity to phone the investigator and find out exactly where they are, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I be allowed to enter this discussion with your leave?  Chairperson, we were given a statement, a written statement of this lady.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't place it on record, don't place any comments on record.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, well I was going to submit to you Chairperson, that there's no point in waiting for this lady to come and give evidence because of what the statement says because it takes the matter no further at all and you can conclude this incident in our respectful submission in spite of the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't studied the statement.

MR VISSER: Well may I suggest that my learned friend gives you the statement so that you can look at it?

CHAIRPERSON: We have been given the statement as we walked in this morning.  We haven't had the chance to evaluate it's contents.

MR VISSER: It's not the typewritten one, it's the one in manuscript, Chairperson, it's just one page.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: And really, to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're expressing an opinion that it has no impact on the application?

MR VISSER: Absolutely not, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, whether she gives evidence or not?

MR VISSER: It's going to make no difference to whether you are going to consider either refusing or granting amnesty Chairperson, really I believe that it's going to be a waste of time if the matter has to stand down to wait for her.

CHAIRPERSON: I gave an undertaking to Mr Britz that as soon as his client's evidence was heard he would be excused and considering that they've come down at their own expense and their time is valuable to them, Mr Britz you and your counsel and your client if the client wishes to leave, you are excused from further attendance.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, we appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a decision on this aspect of whether this lady should be called to give evidence or not when the time comes.  In the meanwhile we will proceed with the other matters in which we were engaged.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I must just make my position clear, the only reason why I mentioned it now was because I thought that my learned friend Mr Du Plessis and Mr Britz would be detained to wait for the lady to come and that was the only reason why I mentioned it.  But once they've now been excused of course we don't mind waiting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  Somebody has taken the trouble of alerting the TRC, calling the TRC and has taken the trouble of making a statement.  We haven't had a chance to consider this statement.  The leader of evidence does not know the person, she's only going to have a chance of seeing this person and then evaluate whether there's any point in calling her or not but until then this matter will remain and we will come to it if necessary when it's convenient to do so.

MR VISSER: There's absolutely no problem with that from our point of view Chairperson, as I said before it was just that I thought that Britz and Du Plessis might have to be detained for this and that's why I mentioned it, for no other reason at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Now what is your further interest in this matter?

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Chairperson, I was going to ask if I may be excused.  I thought you were going to adjourn before the Quarry Road Incident proceeds but I have no interest in the Quarry Road and if I may also be excused, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you are.

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Now may we proceed with the Quarry Road incident, is Mr Webster here?

MS THABETHE: He is not here, Chairperson.  We will need to telephone him because he is right in Smith Street, so can I ask for a ten minute adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, ten minutes to phone him.  Will it take ten minutes to be here?

MS THABETHE: Well I'll find out as soon as I've spoken to him.  Shamanaz is going to call him right now.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems that this is one of these other unavoidable hiccups.  We are going to adjourn until as soon as you are ready to call us.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS