Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: Are there any questions to any one of the two witnesses?  Advocate Sandi.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Although Mr Ngcobo had chosen to give his testimony in Xhosa I think I will have to ask this question in English because it will have to be answered by Mr Simms as well.  Now let me start by asking, are there any corrections or points of disagreement that you want to make to the testimony of General Viktor?  You were here when he gave his testimony, are there any important issues that you think you should express your disagreement and say you do not agree with him?  If none I can just proceed and ask the questions I want to ask.  Do you want to correct General Viktor on anything he said this morning?

UNKNOWN: Yes, first of all he does not agree that he was there.  He gave me instructions which means that he was in charge.  He said that he was not in charge.

UNKNOWN: At this stage I don't think there's any serious differences that I would like to change.  When I get to something that's serious I can address it if that's in order with the Chairman.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much.  Mr Ngcobo you said before the shooting which occurred on the date in question you noticed that what was happening in the Ciskei was that Gqozo, because he was not trusting some of the members of the force, if not all of them, there were people who were coming from South Africa to take over the running of things in the Ciskei, would you say what sort of people, what kind of people were coming from South Africa to take over?
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UNKNOWN: In the defence force their officers that came, there are officers from the Ciskean defence force that Brigadier Gqozo did not trust.

MR SANDI: Do you think he didn't trust members of the Ciskei security forces because there were fundamental differences on fundamental issues?

UNKNOWN: I think that because he did not trust us there are other things that would happen, for example, Gozana being shot I only heard it from the radio, on the news, I should have known this because I was ....

MR SANDI: You said there were other separate meetings that were being held with some other people somewhere else, were you referring to these people?

UNKNOWN: The reason for me to say that in our plannings of the defence force with Van der Bank and the others we came to the conclusion that the members of the defence force will be deployed at the stadium, others will be at the People's Bank, but on that particular day when I arrived at work in the morning there were members of the defence force who were deployed in Fort Hare campus.  It was obvious that there was another meeting that I was not in.  Those were my views.

MR SANDI: Mr Simms do you agree with the suspicion of Mr Ngcobo when he says it appeared that because of the confusion that was happening around the preparation for the march some meetings were being held somewhere by some other people, do you agree with that suspicion or notion?  Did you at any stage entertain such suspicion?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman if I say it's a suspicion, what's the word we use, let's say via the grapevine it did come to my knowledge after the Bisho massacre that meetings were
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held between the Ciskei defence force and other role players, but not before.  I didn't know of any meetings before.  Most of the meetings, as I stated in my statement with the dates here, it so happened that at a quite a few of them that Brigadier Ngcobo could not be present at a lot of them and then he was represented by me again, so, but the suspicion ...(intervention)

MR SANDI: Would you please be more specific about other role players were attending such other meetings?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman again if they want me to say where's your proof I won't be able to give it but meetings were held by the Ciskei defence force, South African defence force, etc.

MR SANDI: The International Researchers people, were they also attending such meetings?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman it's the first time I heard about that organisation or department in this hearing this afternoon.

MR SANDI: Don't you read the newspapers, you've not seen newspapers talking about such a body that existed in the Ciskei up to the time it was disbanded?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I am not going to tell a lie, there's such a lot of organisations and bodies and stuff that's in the newspapers now that I am not going to say that I read that about that one.  About the Ciskei Intelligence Service I know, but not the one that they mentioned here.

MR SANDI: Okay.  Let us talk now about the meetings both yourself Mr Ngcobo, and Mr Simms attended.  The meetings you both attended were they being held during day time or at night?

UNKNOWN: All the meetings used to be held during the
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day.

MR SANDI: What was the tone of those meetings?  Would you say there was a general acceptance in these meetings that the people who wanted to march to Bisho had a right to do so?  Would you say there was an acceptance of that principle in general at such meetings?

UNKNOWN: In these meetings what was important, what was discussed because the defence force was dominating these meetings, they wanted to - Brigadier Gqozo refused that the march, that the people should demonstrate.

MR SANDI: Do you have anything to say Mr Simms on that?  I want to know the tone of such meetings, was it a hardline tone or was it generally accepted in principle that those who wanted to march had a right to do so?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman it's good that that question is put to me. At one of the meetings, I can't specifically mention which one, I suggested for the role players, when I say role players, Ciskei defence force, police, that are involved in the protest marches and that to contact the organisers of the march to negotiate with them, in that way we would see what they were planning, they would know what our plans are and we could work out a plan.  It was put to the Chairman at that stage and the reaction was, the Chairman of the meeting, the meetings that we attended at that stage, the reaction was that on previous occasions the head of state, Brigadier Gqozo was confronted with suggestions such as this and he just bluntly refused.

MR SANDI: Was it the understanding at all such meetings that South Africa was going to give the necessary logistical support for the march?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman logistic support for the march in
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which way, to the Ciskei police or the Ciskei defence force or?

MR SANDI: I want to ask you about the razor wire.  If in preparation  for  the march you happened to have a shortage of the razor wire was it part of the arrangement that you could go and get that from the South African side so that you don't have a gap and people get shot by moving into the gap?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman no there was no arrangement previous to the march by the Ciskei police and the RSA police that we'll get razor wire from them.  The decision for General Viktor to go to King Williamstown where the South African Police were posted and to get some extra razor wire from them was after we heard that they had agreed, or the magistrate has authorised the march to go into the Bisho stadium.  I can just also mention that the gap, as General Viktor earlier said, that the gap in the fence was right on the other side, on the eastern side of the stadium and nowhere near the gate where they would have gone into the stadium.

MR SANDI: Did you hear when Mr van der Bank said you did everything that was humanly possible in the circumstances to prevent the tragedy, what have you got to say on that?  Do you agree with that?