Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, when an operation was being executed, what I do remember is that I never used explosives besides a firearm.  It is possible that the person accompanying me could have carried it, but I do not remember myself using any.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

UNKNOWN: Do you know how to operate a hand grenade?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, I've been trained to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /..
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we are to move to matter No 7, but I see it is almost tea time.  I request that the hearing adjourns then we continue with matter No 7 after tea, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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COMMITTEE RESUMES

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I trust that the time that was afforded to you to discuss amongst yourselves how the need for the leading of certain evidence may be curtailed has been achieved and, if so, I think we should place that on record.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.  Firstly, we are indebted to the Committee's indulgence in allowing us the time to look into our papers.  We have identified matters wherein the confirmation will be done as agreed in chambers, and they are as follows, and this will be in the Dirk Coetzee application only.  I just mention the numbers.  That will be matter No 7, No 8, No 12 and matter No 1.  We have included matter No 11, but this we are keeping in abeyance pending information I have been promised by the Investigative Unit this afternoon.  If I do not get the information this afternoon then matter No 11 will also be included under those where evidence is not going to be led.
	Then in Nofomela's application they are as follows:  matter No 5, No 6,  No 8, No 9, No 11, No 12, 13 and 15.
Mr Chairman, those are the matters.  I want my colleagues to confirm that before I proceed.

MR JANSEN: I confirm that, Mr Chairman.  I just wish to add that my learned friend Mr Mpshe also told me that he was awaiting instructions on matter No 2 in Mr Coetzee's application, the matter of Dhlamini and Mavuso.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, did I understand you to mention as far as Mr Nofomela is concerned, matter No 11?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that matter No 11 as far as Dirk Coetzee is
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concerned is not mentioned.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there are matters wherein Mr Nofomela is alone where Mr Dirk Coetzee and others are not involved, hence the applications are separated, separately bound.  So the numbering is not a continuation of the other matters.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.   Is it proposed then to place on record the relevant paragraphs of the applications for amnesty or the contents of those paragraphs?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, yes.  As far as I understood from my learned friend we would be dealing with those matters where we are going to lead evidence first, and then when we get to that point where we will start just leading brief confirmatory evidence, that we will then place that on record.  I can do so at this stage already, because I have the notes.
	Mr Chairman, as far as incident No 1 is concerned in Mr Coetzee's application, the bombing in Manzini, it is found in the manuscript, Evidence Book No 1, at paragraph 5.4.14.1 on page 95 of the manuscript.  And as far as No 7 is concerned, that is found, the Swazi detainee, that is found on paragraph 5.4.10.2, of the manuscript, page 87, and I think it is page 17 of the numbered pages of the paginated papers of the present application.

UNKNOWN: Matter No 6?

MR JANSEN: That was the matter we just led evidence about, the Comrade A matter.  Then matter No 8 is found in the manuscript at page 94, paragraph 5.4.12.2, and matter No 12, the Manzini Post Office bomb, page 54 of the manuscript, paragraph 5.2.6.8.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible)
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MR JANSEN: /..
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MR JANSEN: It is paragraph 12 - it is on the typed pages 23, I would imagine on the paginated papers to be 27.
	Then the two matters in which we are awaiting instructions, that may possibly be dealt with in this manner, is matter No 2 in the application Peter Dhlamini and Selby Mavuso, that is found in the manuscript on page 108, paragraph 5.4.16.1.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR JANSEN: Yes, and then the application page is typed page 3 of the Annexure, then page 7 of the paginated papers.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR JANSEN: It is typed page 15, in other words paginated page 19.  And then finally matter No 11, which is in the manuscript on page 103 paragraph 5.4.14.4.  In the application it is typed page 21 of the Annexure and therefore page 25 of the paginated papers.  So those are the issues that will be dealt with by way of confirmatory evidence.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, the situation with regard to the applicant, Mr Nofomela, is correct as stated by my learned friend, Mr Mpshe.  I am not in possession of this manuscript that is being referred to.  Apparently that was compiled before the application for Mr Nofomela was received by the Commission therefore his application is not contained in it.  But the paragraphs referred to by my learned friend all appear in the Annexure annexed to the affidavit by Mr Nofomela.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)  (Microphone not switched on)

MR MARAIS: One more contained in a further affidavit filed by the applicant and that will be matter No 17 in that further affidavit, but we also await further information
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from Mr Mpshe about this matter before it will be included.

JUDGE WILSON: These affidavits you are talking about, are they his application?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members, just to clarify the question of affidavits.  Further submissions were submitted and the affidavits counsel is referring to are not included in the application.  These are further submissions that were sent which are going to be given to the Committee members when the compilation is completed.

JUDGE WILSON: So we haven't seen them, you haven't got them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Definitely they are not there.  Mr Chairman, if that is agreed upon, we further agreed that we start with matter No 9 in the Dirk Coetzee application on page 21, paginated page 21, because the victim is present at this moment.  We felt we could dispose of this while she is available.  This has been agreed upon.
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CHAIRPERSON: /.....
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CHAIRPERSON: At what stage will you be calling the witness to confirm the contents of the manuscript?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman at any particular stage, whatever is most appropriate, it's just that it would need some introductory evidence to explain the origins of the manuscript and the circumstances that was written under and then how it relates to the application itself, to the extent if there are any differences how those came about.   So I would think it could then be appropriately be done at any stage after the present matter we're going to deal with.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well you may proceed.

MR JANSEN: If I may call the applicant Mr Coetzee again to the stand.

JUDGE WILSON: Before he comes, there is one question I would like to ask.   Mr Nofomela gave evidence about the previous matter, the shooting in Maseru.   Could you just give me the number of that in his application?

MR JANSEN: That's No 2 in his application and it's on typed page 3 of his application.
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE (suo)
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Coetzee on 26 November 1981, you were involved in a raid into Botswana is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the target of this mission or operation?

ANSWER: The specific target was an ANC cadre and I think his wife, Rola and Joyce Dibali, to assassinate them in their house in Gaberone, Botswana.