Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: If that was so, then it is the case but I don't have any personal knowledge of this.  Cases I investigated in Brandfort never let to obtaining other suspects.  If I encountered suspects I brought them to court.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Bester, I would have expected you as a person who was investigating matters of a political nature in Brandfort, to have become aware of these gangsters during the course of your investigation of these matters.

MR VISSER: With respect Mr Chairman, the witness was a pains to tell you that he did investigate politically orientated matters, unrest related cases.

CHAIRPERSON: He has said repeatedly and explained that he didn't investigate political matters.  Do you remember that Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: I didn't know Mr Chairman, that you would be swayed into that line of distinction.  I think I did say to him that unrest of a political nature and he did concede that and those therefore were political matters that we're talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, he drew a very clear distinction between investigation of political matters and unrest matters but he conceded that unrest matters in this country could broadly speaking come form a political situation.

ADV MEMANI: That is the point.  If he's made that concession, why can't I put it to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Because he was investigating unrest matter, political matters might not have been associated with unrest at all.  It is clear that some unrest matters may have had political implications but the contrary is not the truth is it?  There are many political matters that are not unrest related at all, aren't there?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, I will proceed with the witness.
	Mr Bester, we were told that these incident which involved the gangs would be typically matters that you would call unrest related.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were we told that?

ADV MEMANI: Let me rephrase the question Mr Chairman.
	Now, we were told that these conflicts between the gangsters and the students took the form of open attacks of the gangsters attacking the students.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, you have to understand.  The cases I investigated were reported cases.  If those lot tackled each other at Brandfort and started fighting and cases were not made, I wouldn't have known about them.  I must state to you that I and my team investigated unrest matters in the Southern Free State.
	There were 24 towns which all had chaos brought in on a single day.  If people fought with each other I wouldn't have known about them all.  I don't have anything to hide and I can only tell you what I know and what I deny knowing.

ADV MEMANI: Now we were told that some of these comrades reported the matters to the police and nothing was done about those matters.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: If a case had been made and I had been notified, I would have investigated it or one of my people would have done so.  We had to investigate it, it was our job.

ADV MEMANI: Now, what unrest related matters did you investigate at Brandfort before 1989?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: During August 1985 there was a stone throwing incident at Mrs Winnie Mandela's house, I investigated that. Thereafter there was a fire at her house, I investigated that.  Then ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Before you proceed, who was responsible for the stone throwing at Winnie Mandela's house?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: A number of persons had been arrested.  I no longer have the names as it occurred in 1985 a long time ago.

ADV MEMANI: And were these people not associated with the anti-comrades?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, I don't know who the anti-comrades were.

ADV MEMANI: To which formation were they associated?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: They were criminals.

ADV MEMANI: And what was their motive in throwing stones at Mrs Mandela's home?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: The police had given them the opportunity to disperse.  After they had been warned they attacked the police and they were arrested after that.

ADV MEMANI: Now, we heard that you were with Mr Motsamai to investigate an occurrence at Winnie Mandela's house, do you remember that?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: I know Mr Motsamai very well.  I was never on an investigation of a case with him.  If he was there quite possibly but that I went from Bloemfontein where Motsamai was involved is a blatant lie, it's not true.

ADV MEMANI: Don't you recall that in the morning after the bombing of Mrs Mandela's house you went with him to the house?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, I have a problem with the statement: "Bomb attack".  If we refer to the clinic that had been burnt, I was there alone, I found Mr Mamome there that morning, he did not do the investigation with me, I found him there, he was there.

ADV MEMANI: I may have misled you, I meant to refer to the day after the clinic was bombed.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, if we could just get clarity.  The day after the attack was the first morning I was there, I think the clinic burnt at 2 o'clock and the day after that I wasn't there but I was there on the same day.  Perhaps I don't understand the question clearly.

ADV MEMANI: I see.  Thank you for reminding me.  The point is, you went there with Motsamai.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, I just testified that I went there alone.  I went there and I found Motsamai there, he didn't go there from Bloemfontein and he didn't return with me, I went with my own vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you found Motsamai there?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: It's Motsamai [End of tape 4A - no follow-on sound]
... after me but he was in Brandfort, he was also at the clinic.

ADV DE JAGER: But previously you said you found Mamome there.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mamome and Motsamai.  They way I understood the question, it was Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: Did you say you found him there, Motsamai?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you seemed also not to be sure whether you found him there or whether he might have arrived there.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That is entirely correct.

ADV MEMANI: Is it possible that he might have arrived there after he had been there?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now if it is possible that he might have arrived there after you had been there then you wouldn't have found him there or you wouldn't have seen him there.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, we are splitting hairs, I was in Brandfort for a number of hours.  I think I arrived there in the morning at 5 o'clock, I'm not entirely sure, it's many years ago.  If Motsamai arrived at 7 o'clock it's possible he arrived after me but I only departed at about 10 o'clock.

ADV MEMANI: I see.  Mr Motsamai - Mr Ngo also told us that you were with him in a vehicle on the night in which the clinic was bombed?

CHAIRPERSON: Clinic?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Ngo and I never worked together. Under no circumstances for a single moment, it is a blatant lie, it is entirely wrong.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it also correct that you investigated the attempted murder on Motsamai? - rather on Ngo.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: In my evidence in chief I stated that I hadn't.  If you are referring to an assault on him, I testified right at the beginning that I'm not sure whether I was part of the group but that I assisted in the interrogation of Mr White Mohapi and I'm not sure whether I investigated that case.  I was not the chief investigating officer, I testified to that effect.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that you were the investigating officer.

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: That is incorrect.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Bester, is it true that often members of the security branch charged people merely to harass them?

HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER: Mr Chair, if that question was put to me, I never did it and I don't believe other members of the security branch did it.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Bester, do you have any problems with Mr Motsamai?