Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: In 1990, after the existence of Eagles, they used to wear T-shirts which were written "Eagles" and they were green in colour, combined with the gold colour. They were written "Eagles" at the back. And for me to know that it is Stechers, we used to attend meetings together with the members together with the police, because after they have attacked members of the ANC, or members of the community, the police would regard the committee meetings to be the court of law to investigate .. (indistinct) of opening documents. That's how I came to know of his membership.

MR MOHLABA: I missed that one. Are you saying that there were meetings held by this Stechers Lovers on the one hand, the community and the police officials on the other hand? Is that correct?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: The meetings were conducted by the ANC members, together with the civic organisation together with the police. And together with members of the Stechers. The main objective was that the police did not want to open dockets against members of those organisations What the police would do, would protect members of these gangs by not charging them.

MR MOHLABA: So was there an occasion where you attended a meeting in the presence of the deceased and the police on the other hand?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, in many instances. Many members of the ANC whom I used to attend meetings with them, together with the police and members of the civic and members of this gangs. The last meeting which I remember together with the members of the gangs and police, it is when members of the gang were looking for Marupeng at his home. They did not find Marupeng and they pointed his sister with a gun and the police were called. After that they assembled members of the gang and arrested them on that day. That was on the 14th of May 1992. And then again on the 16th of May, the police requested that there should be a meeting between the ANC, themselves and members of the gang. We attended that meeting and during that meeting, instead of the police to inform us that they found members of the gang out, they allowed the members of the gang to address us and when we asked them what was the problem, what is your problem for not arresting members of the gang, the members of the gang explained that they were forced to join members of the ANC. And when we asked these people who was responsible for forcing them to be members of the ANC, so that we will be able to question those people who were forcing them to be members of the ANC.

MR MOHLABA: Sorry to interject you. Can you just pause and talk a little slower to enable the interpreter to interpret and the Committee members to take notes. Please continue. You can continue.

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: We asked this people as to whether who was forcing them to be members of the ANC. They were not able to identify the people who were forcing them to be members of the ANC. I asked Warrant Officer Thomas who was present at that meeting that were we called to be informed as to whether we should know that these people were found with guns or are we here to know that they were forced to be members of the ANC or what. Or what is the reason of the meeting.

MR MOHLABA: This very meeting which you are talking about, was the deceased present?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, the deceased, together with his friends, were present at that meeting.

MR MOHLABA: There was mention here that it was not very clear, the applicant could not say with certainty, whether there was, at the time of the scuffle between the deceased and yourself, whether there was a mention by yourself, why was the deceased looking for you. Did you hear that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: When we met the deceased in town, when we came from AVBOB, on the 31st of May 1992, we were busy arranging the funeral of our uncle, we met the deceased. I was surprised to see them because we found information that on the 30th of May 1992, that was Friday night, they were arrested in the coloured township called Westdene, where they attacked people there, during the night. I was surprised on Saturday morning when we saw them next to the telephones. Isaac Gulu who is my younger brother who was together with us, he made a telephone call. When we passed, when I and John were supposed to pass and wait for him to come back, we were blocked by these members of the gang.

MR MOHLABA: You did not utter the statement to the deceased to the effect that, that is you did not question him why he was looking for you? You did not say that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: I asked the deceased that we only heard them that here they are. Then I said to him, "who and what are you looking them for?" That's what I said.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know who stabbed the deceased?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: That's John Gulu.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, that concludes my evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mohlaba. Any questions, Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, if you would allow me a few questions. Sir, you say, you're saying that this group actually blocked you. Is that what you are saying? What do you mean by that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: They blocked us, that it means when a person, that is when a person blocks your way that you should not go to where you want to.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, so, do I understand correctly, they didn't attack you? Because that is what the applicant is saying. Just give me the opportunity ... (intervention)

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, he grabbed me with my clothes and I did the same.

ADV STEENKAMP: So my question is purely, the applicant testified he was attacked, or the group attacked you. You are saying you were blocked. My question is purely, were you attacked or not?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: We were attacked.

ADV STEENKAMP: Why didn't you testify to that effect? You say you were blocked. Why didn't you tell us that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: I said when we moved from the telephone booths, they blocked our way, then after that they attacked us.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now, this group, gang, group you're referring to, can you tell the Committee what was the involvement of the deceased in this group. Did he occupy any position, what was his position in this group?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: He was the leader of this group.

ADV STEENKAMP: And how do you know that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: I know that because we used to attend meetings with them. Then even after the attacks, members of the community would testify to that effect. His name was mentioned many times.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, the previous applicant, the applicant testified that he was standing there, standing there, defending himself. Did you hear that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, I did.

ADV STEENKAMP: And I would like to refer you to a statement which appears on page 70, Mr Chairman, it's a statement by Mr Patrick Ire. As well as to a statement of Mr John Mfani which appears on page 74. Now basically, I will just refer you to both these statements, paragraph 3. It's in Afrikaans. The summary of that, those statements, those specific paragraphs are that are whoever killed the deceased was doing so while the deceased was lying on the ground and this person was all over him with the knife and stabbing him. Is this what happened at the incident? Was the applicant busy killing or stabbing the deceased while he was lying on the ground? Is that true?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, he was lying on the ground whilst the applicant was stabbing him.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now, tell me, in the court case, your defence was also self-defence. Am I right?