Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

MR KADES: Did you regard your function then being merely that of a conduit?  A complaint was made by - or a statement was made to you by Mr Tony Leon, you then merely passed that information on to your investigating officers and you have never followed up precisely what was done regarding the complaints made by Mr Leon and by Mr Mufamadi himself?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Certainly Chairperson, the police service is a very big organisation, I just don't have the time to attend to every investigation - that's the one side of the issue.  The second side of the issue is, if you submit a docket to the Attorney General for reconsideration then of course the Attorney General will normally - if that person finds it necessary to obtain certain additional statements over and above what you have in the docket, that instruction will come
 I never gave the instruction for a statement of that nature to be taken, that was most probably not in my hands at that stage, it was in the hands of the Detective Branch where you have a Detective Chief which I have instructed: "To make sure that you are going to investigate this matter thoroughly and that you are going to follow up all possible loose ends".  So I never gave any direction from my side to follow that up.

MR KADES: Lest it be thought Mr Commissioner, that I'm criticising you with regard to your actions in this regard, rest assured that I'm not, I'm merely seeking information.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cades, I had reassured the Commissioner that we would - he was due to have left at 2 o'clock and I asked whether he could go on until 2.30 p.m. and I think the panel here also wants to ask some questions.  Let me give you one more question..

MR KADES: I have no further questions thank you.  I've not been intimidated by the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm glad, nobody is ever.

MR: Mr Chairperson, if I may just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: One.

MR: One aspect I would like to canvass.
 Commissioner Fivaz, are you aware that there were allegations that bodies had been thrown into a mine dump - that emanating from John Morgan?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Yes, I am aware of that Chairperson.

MR: I would presume that if there was to be an investigation as to whether bodies are indeed there, that would be a fairly expensive operation?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: If we are talking about excavations etc., it is extremely expensive.

MR: What level of authorisation would be required to authorise the police force to actually undertake such an investigation or recovery operation?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: That normally will take place in conjunction with the Attorney General to get permission for an ordinary excavation when a person is buried under normal circumstances.  If the person is not buried under normal circumstances, of course the police service can take the initiative and they can excavate.

MR: Last question, do you know whether there has been any initiative in this regard?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I'm quite sure Chairperson, that there were initiatives and I think there were detectives involved in that and I can commit myself to find out exactly who those people were and I can give the names to the TRC.

MR: Sorry, just lastly, do you know if there's any intention on the part of the police services to actually undertake a search in a mine shaft?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: What I was saying Chairperson, I think we have already initiated from the side of the police service - if we are talking about the same incident.  We have already initiated from the side of the police service a search, how far we are and whether we have achieved specific results and what results, I'm not quite aware about but that information could be made available to the TRC.

MR: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Fazel?

DR RANDERA: Commissioner, I just want to come back to what you started about how the investigation was initiated into Doctor Asvat's death.  Is it fair to assume that in coming to this hearing - I understand that this is handed over to the Attorney General, but is it fair to assume that in coming to this hearing you would have gone back and done some homework on the deaths of Sono as well as Asvat - that perhaps you have asked for those dockets from the Attorney General and gone through them?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson no,  I haven't done it and I never thought it necessary to do it because there are first hand eye-witness testimonies that the TRC is going to hear on that.  I've indicated in my opening remarks when I was questioned about the investigators, that I haven't got any doubt in my mind that those people are people with integrity, they are well experienced investigators and so I haven't done it.

DR RANDERA: Commissioner, I want to come to this question of informers.  We heard yesterday and today that perhaps there was third force activity going on at the time when the Mandela United Football Club was functioning, we've also heard about Operation Romulous to discredit Mrs Mandela.  What I'm trying to understand is that - and you yourself said when asked by Mr PIGOU about other informers, that you'd looked into it and you haven't been able to find other files but it does - I find it interesting that we find information concerning Mrs Mandela and that there's an informer suddenly that comes up, is it possible then for us to construe that perhaps there's still a third force functioning within the police force?
 I take your point that you have the greatest faith in your investigators because it's been mentioned at other times particularly in regard to what's happening in KwaZulu Natal - the term third force has been used even by our President, now is that possible.  Let me just make one more point, we've had communication with the police services throughout the country in terms of the period we're looking at and yes, we've had co-operation but often when information is asked for, we have been told that either the information has been destroyed or there's not information.  
 I just find it very interesting that suddenly we have this information coming up at a time when not only the Mbatha and Dlamini's are being questioned again but also the issue of Mrs Mandela is coming up to, perhaps you could comment on that.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, I'm totally convinced that there's not third force in the police service and why I'm saying it, I think we also have a very competent structure in our crime intelligence component which will most definitely identify any sign of that in our structure and in National Intelligence and South African Secret Services as well.
 I think we shouldn't get confused with the issue of corruption in the Criminal Justice System and where we have made numerous statements saying that we are very concerned and where we have many, many examples of arrests of police officers and court officials where they are involved in the destruction of police files or evidence in court or the selling of police dockets and that type of thing.  
 But certainly I think or rather I'm convinced that we don't have a third force operating in that sense, trying to cripple the activities of the TRC or any other institution trying to find the truth - I'm convinced that we don't have it.  I'm not saying that we don't have people who are not willing to participate, I'm not that naive.  
 I think we still have a lot of people who are not willing to participate in the process but that's a different issue.  From my side and from management side we have always tried to sensitise our police officers in the South African police service to assist the TRC and to co-operate with the TRC wherever possible - that is really my answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin?

YASMINE SOOKA: Commissioner, I'd like to ask a question about the payment of sources, how do you check the information that the source gives you and whether that's accurate and secondly, is the money returned if the information is inaccurate?