Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: Which political formation, which grouping were they affiliated to?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Because they are close, they are not Mandela Football Team.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.  Now, that is not a political formation.  Were they members of the Inkatha Freedom Movement?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: Which movement were they members of?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: For the UDF.

MR JOSEPH: The?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: UDF.

MR JOSEPH: UDF.  To your knowledge, were they involved in anyway with the possession of firearms, carrying firearms or anything like that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: You never saw anything like that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Me to carry?

MR JOSEPH: No, the other members of the United, of the Mandela United Football Club.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: Okay.  Now, how was the house run from a, from this point of view?  The members of the football club, could they come in and out of the house freely or was their some restriction of their movement?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, we need to report when you go out the house, you need to sign that you are going out.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And you need to tell the time when you are coming back ... (intervention).

MR JOSEPH: Now, ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: ... and the ...

MR JOSEPH: Fine.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And then if they say yes or no, I will need to get the order from Richardson.  If Richardson do not agree, you cannot go.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.  Let me just go back to one matter.  Mrs Mandela's daughter, Zinzi, lived in the house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And were there any other children in the house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who were those children?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I cannot remember the name, but he was ... (intervention).

MR JOSEPH: No, the relationship?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, there were three, two boys and a girl.

MR JOSEPH: Who was the mother?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Zinzi.

MR JOSEPH: Zinzi was the mother.  Do you remember some time in November 1988 an incident which involved a young man by the name of Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Will you tell the Commission what you recall?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was on Mrs Mandela's garage, they were beating Lolo Sono.

MR JOSEPH: Can you remember the day in November when this occurred?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No, I cannot remember the day.

MR JOSEPH: You cannot remember the date?  There was a day in November, that you were telling the Commission, that an assault took place on Lolo Sono.  Correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who were the people who participated in the assault?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Mrs Mandela and Richardson and others.

MR JOSEPH: Mrs Mandela, Richardson and the others?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: The boys, yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who were the others?

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just, I am sorry, photographers, I gave you your opportunity.  Hello, oi, goodbye.  Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who were the others, I am not looking for a name of each person.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They were the Mandela Football Team.

MR JOSEPH: Members of the Mandela Football Team?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, the Commission is interested in knowing or hearing evidence which emanates from your own personal observations as opposed to matters that were told to you or your own speculation.  Now, when you tell this Commission on oath that you witnessed Mrs Mandela and members of the Mandela United Football Club assault Lolo Sono, did you witness that with your own eyes, did you see that with your own eyes?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Were you present when it occurred?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Where it occurred in the house, can you identify a room?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It happened in the garage.

MR JOSEPH: In the garage?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, are you able to tell the Commission
details of the beating or the assault.  In other words, which particular person inflicted an injury to Mr Sono and how was that injury inflicted?  What did you see?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: When I enter in the garage it was Mrs Mandela holding sjambok.  She was whipping Lolo Sono and Richardson, he was standing, kicking and the others, the Mandela Football Team, they were surrounding.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did not check the beating and then I went inside and then they say Lolo Sono work with the police, he is a spy.

MR JOSEPH: Just hold on one moment.  You witnessed the beating which involved Mrs Mandela making use of a sjambok?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: When she struck Lolo Sono, was Lolo Sono standing, lying or sitting?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He was lying down on the concrete.

MR JOSEPH: Did she strike him with force?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, he was trying to cover his face.  They were whipping him all over the body, Mrs Mandela.

MR JOSEPH: Were there injuries which were visible?  Did you ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What type of injuries?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He was bleeding.

MR JOSEPH: From where?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He was having all the blood here, in the mouth.

MR JOSEPH: You say you never participated in this assault and, if I understand your evidence correctly, you did not remain there for the entire duration of the assault, you left at a certain stage?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What is the next incident which you witnessed with your own eyes relating to Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They were going out holding him and then I meet Mrs Mandela on the gate.  She asked me to go with them.

MR JOSEPH: Mrs Mandela asked you to go with them?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Well, who were them?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: When I enter into the Kombi was Mrs Mandela and Jerry Richardson and when Mrs Mandela and Richardson and me and Lolo Sono and I cannot remember the names of the other person.

MR JOSEPH: And where did you, where did they take Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: To his home in Meadowlands.

MR JOSEPH: To his home in?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Meadowlands.

MR JOSEPH: In Meadowlands.  You saw a gentlemen give evidence on the first day of this Commission.  His name was Nicodemus Sono.  Have you ever seen that man before?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: When did you see him?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: When we went to the house of Lolo Sono.

MR JOSEPH: When you went to the house of Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Ja, I remember the man.

MR JOSEPH: You saw a man come out who you recognised to be the gentleman who gave evidence on the first day of this hearing.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, how was Lolo Sono taken to his father's house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They went to the house and then they went, they asked the documents.

MR JOSEPH: Listen to the question please.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What method was used to move Lolo Sono from where he was in Mrs Mandela's house to, some distance away, the home of his father?  Did they use a bicycle, did they use an aeroplane?  What did they use?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They used a vehicle.

MR JOSEPH: They used a vehicle?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What is the name of that vehicle?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was a microbus.

MR JOSEPH: A microbus?  A kombi, would you call it a Kombi?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And who was in the Kombi?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Mrs Mandela.

MR JOSEPH: And who else?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Richardson and me and Lolo Sono and other boy.

MR JOSEPH: Jerry Richardson was in the Kombi?  Is that, I never heard?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Was he driving?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: Who was driving?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I cannot remember the driver.

MR JOSEPH: Some other man was driving.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Jerry Richardson was there.  Where was Lolo Sono in the vehicle?  Was he sitting in front in the ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No, he was in the back seat.

MR JOSEPH: He was in the back seat?