Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I was born 19 June 1974 in Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell us your home, parental home in which you grew up, what sort of politics were there?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I grew up in a conservative environment.  My parents were members of the Herstigte Nasionale Party, the Reformed National Party.  My standard five teacher was also a member of the HNP.  I also attended meetings of the AWB with my father and I started collecting badges.

UNKNOWN: Would you please speak slower, the interpreters would like to keep up.  Okay, Mr Froneman, did you also join a political organisation at that stage?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct in 1991 I did so.  I joined the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging.

UNKNOWN: Afrikaner Resistance Movement?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And that is a rightwing political party?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And after joining them, did you attend courses?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I regularly attended meetings.  We
joined training camps where we were taught how to act in a military manner, we underwent military training, we did firearm training, arms training, ammunition training, training to teach us how to act when, or react when we drove into a trap with vehicles, how to escape from such a situation.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps you should just change seats.

UNKNOWN: If I understand correctly from what you said Mr Froneman, what you experienced at the AWB was that you were trained to make war?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, we were trained as soldiers to carry on a war.

UNKNOWN: And why did you have to make war, what did you AWB tell you?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The AWB told us that the then government was in the process of giving over the government to the SACP/ANC alliance, that they were not going to insure that we were to be given our own ethnic state, Volkstaat, they would simply hand over the country.

UNKNOWN: And did you also at the AWB undergo specific courses, special courses?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I was also trained by the Iron Guard and I was selected to the Scorpion Unit.

UNKNOWN: The Iron Guard, that is a section of the AWB, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct, it is a wing of the AWB.

UNKNOWN: What is their objective?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Their main function is to protect the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche, they protect him and his property, and they also give training to our other members.

UNKNOWN: You referred to the Scorpion Unit?  What was their purpose?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Our purpose was to protect the smallholdings, farms, houses of people around Cullinan.

UNKNOWN: What did you think when the AWB told you that the then government was going to give over the country, hand over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance, how did you feel about it?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I knew that should the government hand over the country to the alliance, then we as a Boer nation would disappear, we would not be able to continue with our own culture, our religion would be contaminated and everything as we knew it, would disappear.

UNKNOWN: At that stage, at such a young age, could you understand it?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I did understand it as such, yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, you say in your application that on 16 December 1991 you were at a meeting, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: What was that meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: We were with the AWB, we went to Barnard Stadium in Kempton Park and we had a rally and Mr Eugene Terreblanche, the leader of the AWB spoke to us, addressed us and he said it would be the last day of the covenant before the country would be handed over.

UNKNOWN: So Mr Terreblanche was also making war talk throughout?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct, they said that they were definitely committed to war.

UNKNOWN: And you later met the daughter of Mr Harmse and you became friends, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: At that stage, did you come into contact with the Boer Resistance Movement?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct, I met Mr Harmse and together with him, I went to meetings of the Boer Resistance Movement.

UNKNOWN: What were you taught there?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I saw that their objects were much purer that those of the AWB.  The AWB weren't so much concerned, they were more against Blacks, they said the enemy were the Blacks they were going to take over the country, but then I saw that the BWB were not just against the Blacks, they would like the Blacks also to have their own land, but used the Blacks as chess pieces, were the people whom we should attack.

UNKNOWN: Whom are these chess pieces you refer to, the people who then manipulated the chess pieces?  Sorry, I want to restate my question, who are the people who used the Blacks as chess pieces?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That was the ANC/SACP alliance, the top structure.

UNKNOWN: I see that the Boer Resistance Movement refer to the Boere volk, the Boer nation and not as the AWB which refers to the Afrikaner Boer nation.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.  The BWB said that inter alia the Afrikaner could be anybody who spoke Afrikaans, where as we are the Boers, that is one nation, the Boer nation.

UNKNOWN: But Mr Vaughn Bans is an Englishman, isn't he?  Is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Andrew Ford?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Also probably English.

UNKNOWN: So people who spoke other languages could also be members of the BWB, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: After ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Excuse me, if you say people who also spoke other languages, could be members of the BWB, did that include White people only or Black people who could also speak a particular language akin to that spoken by the BWB, could also be members of that Organisation?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, I would like to have the question restated, I didn't follow from the beginning.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Could members or communities who spoke the same language as the ones predominantly spoken by BWB members also belong to that Organisation and in this instance could you have Black people who spoke Afrikaans, belonging to BWB?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, no, my reply to that is no, not anybody could join the BWB.  You had to be somebody who believed in the same faith, you had to be - how should I say - you had to be a member of the Boer nation to join the movement.  The language didn't matter but the main language was Afrikaans, but you had to be a member of the Boer nation to join them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But the English were not of the Boer stock, were they?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, I would say no, but there are still some of them who, in their hearts, were on our side and would assist us in our struggle for a Volkstaat.

UNKNOWN: If I understood correctly and I just
wish to perhaps repeat the question of the Committee member to you.  Is it correct if I understand correctly, that it doesn't matter what language you speak, but the people that were members of the BWB were Whites only?  Is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Whites only?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you then join the BWB?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: When did you join the BWB?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: In May 1993 I joined the BWB.

UNKNOWN: Did you attend any meetings?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, on the day that I became a member, we went to Mr Vaughn Bands' plot, Mr Harmse and I and we were sworn in as members of the BWB.

UNKNOWN: And who was the leader at that particular meeting?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The main speaker was the leader, Mr Andrew Ford and Mr Vaughn Bands was also one of the speakers.

UNKNOWN: Were there also other speakers who specifically conveyed messages at the meeting?