Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF

MR BERGER: Mr Strydom, just something that concerns me, a whole range of people were given Section 19(4) notices relevant to these proceedings and it may just help me, I don't know if it would help the rest of the Committee, to know which of those people that received 19(4) notices you are acting for in a watching brief type capacity, i.e. just covering their interests.  You don't have to read them all out now, maybe you can just provide us with a schedule in due course but that may just help us know, I would simply like to know who specifically is represented and whose interests may not be covered so that we don't end up with a situation where someone's named at a later stage when we have to go through the same process again of just confirming that instruction.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I'm not aware of all the notices that have been sent out, that the names I have seen in relation to notices are: Mr Themba Khoza, Mr Humphrey Ndlovu, Mr Gobela.  Those are the names I can remember but I will make sure about that and I will let the Committee know.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] understand the position  regardless of any notices that might have been issued, you are looking after the interests of the IFP and any members of the IFP who might be implicated in the course of these proceedings?

MR STRYDOM: That is indeed so Chairperson, and in fact there was also a notice sent to the IFP as a party.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF

MR BERGER: You see Mr Strydom, what concerns me is just a general sense of representing people, you don't know whether they've actually instructed you or not and they may want someone else to represent them for all I know.  We've already had a problem with Mr Lukhozi which you alerted us to.  I'm just concerned that there may be conflicts of interest between different individuals and someone.  This sort of blanket mandate isn't very desirable.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I appear for the IFP and the members of the IFP on a watching brief basis and not in any other capacity and that is why I initially did not place that on record because I don't see the need to place yourself on record if you just carry a watching brief.

MR BERGER: That's fine, let's leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, could you turn please to page 6 of the papers, paragraph 8.  You say there:
"These weapons were kept by Vanana Zulu and he hid them away.  I saw these weapons when they were handed to us by Vanana Zulu one by one"
Do you see that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: When did this take place?

MR MTHEMBU: What I explained here relates to another era and not for what we are here about.

MR BERGER: When did this take place is my question.

MR MTHEMBU: I am explaining about something that happened at some other time.  As my lawyer had explained, this did not happen when we went to attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: I'm asking you a simple question, I'm just asking you to say when it happened.

MR MTHEMBU: It happened at another time.  I cannot be specific about the date.  There was - I thought we were talking or we were discussing Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before or after the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: After the Boipatong attack.

MR BERGER: Who handed out the weapons on the night of the Boipatong attack?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not know because I knew Mr Chonco to be responsible for the weapons.

MR BERGER: Are you saying you did not see anybody hand out any weapons on the night of the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I did not see anybody.

MR BERGER: I'm going back now to that affidavit I was reading from.  The last sentence we read, just to put you in the picture, said
"At these meetings"
those are the Tuesday and Thursday meetings.
"we were informed when new weapons had arrived"
We've dealt with that.  It goes on to say:
"The arms are brought by members of the Inkatha Freedom Party who arrive at the hostel from Natal.  I have seen them arrive with AK47's and spears with poison tips"
Do you know anything about this?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: You have never witnessed or heard of members of the IFP bringing weapons to the hostel, Kwamadala, from Natal?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I did not see it Sir.

MR BERGER: It continues - I'm sorry, as far as you're concerned all the weapons came from Vosloorus?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.
MR BERGER
"Some of those who arrived come to the area to work.  However others come to carry out missions and attacks in the local township.  Others come to bring arms and then leave"
Do you know anything about people who came to carry out missions and attacks in the local township?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I have no knowledge.

MR BERGER: Do you have any knowledge of any missions other than the - I'm not talking now about the Boipatong Massacre on the 17th of June 1992, do you have knowledge of any missions, whether by you or whether by anybody else, where attacks were carried out in the local township?

MR MTHEMBU: At that time there were many incidents that occurred that we would hear about on the radio.  These attacks took place in the townships.

MR BERGER: Did the people from Umsinga ever go out on their own to carry out attacks in the local township?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not have knowledge of that Sir.

MR BERGER: At any time I'm talking about.

MR MTHEMBU: As I have mentioned that I cannot have or I do not have knowledge of it, I mean that exactly.

MR BERGER: Do you have knowledge of any members of the Umsinga contingent going out of the hostel at any time to shoot at the ANC or to shoot at members of the ANC?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I do not have knowledge about that.

MR BERGER: At any stage they went out, you have no knowledge?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I do not.

MR BERGER: Please have a look at page 14, paragraph 29.  You say there
"The hitsquad of Umsinga also went out several times on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC"
What do you say about that Mr Mthembu?

CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph are you referring to?

MR BERGER: Paragraph 29 at the bottom of page 14.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer that, does this relate to the Boipatong incident or is it a subject of another application for amnesty?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, may just say that on page 14 there is a heading
"1993"
It relates to things that happened in 1993 in the Sebokeng area.  If that is of any help.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, first of all when this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You can put the question.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, do you remember the question?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.  What you actually asking about has nothing to do with the reason why we are here.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Mthembu, the paragraph that has just been read over to you, that's were you say
"The hitsquad in Umsinga also went out several times on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC"
That's what he's asking you about.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what is your answer to that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, it did happen but it has nothing to do with why we are here today.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, when you gave your evidence on Monday you were very careful to point out that pages 4 to 8 concern the Sebokeng attack and that pages 8 to 17 concern the Boipatong Massacre.  More than that, I was very careful in the way that I asked you the question and I think on more than one occasion I said to you that my question related to at: "any time".  I asked you: "At any time, did the members of the Umsinga contingent go out on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC", and you said: "No".  Do you recall that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I do, but if you look from page 8 to page 12 it is specified that that is the Boipatong Massacre.

MR BERGER: Why did you say: "At not time did the members of the Umsinga contingent go out on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC"?