Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

FUNDISILE GULENI: Because in most cases due to the fact that people like Slovo for quite a long time has been staying with us then - I don't if I refer to him as ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's because they've never participated in a legitimate parliament?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes you can put it that way.

MR SMUTS: Is that then your definition of a Boer, somebody who participated in the illegitimate parliament?

FUNDISILE GULENI: What do you mean by definition?

MR SMUTS: You used the term Mr Guleni, what did you mean by using that term when you used it?

FUNDISILE GULENI: In a way the people who were serving in the previous government, it was not strange to use the term Boer because we were referring to the regime then as the Boers and I believe it's not only me who would use the term Boers, we used to refer to the apartheid government then as the Boers.

MR SMUTS: But, I'll try and bring this to a close, but you knew that the people whom you had shot were neither participants in nor supporters of that government when you filled in this form?

FUNDISILE GULENI: At that time when I was filling the form I wasn't aware that by using the term I would be in a way trying to prove that I'm racist, that was if at all I've done something wrong, that was unintentional.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smuts, the point you say you are about to leave, isn't that clarified on page 6 of the typed application, towards the last quarter of the page where it reads
"But it is unfortunate that we killed people who had nothing to do with the AWB and Costello"?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, there's a record at the end of it, also at the end of that page where the witness records his awareness of the political affiliation of members of the party as well.  That is why particularly I explored the use of this terminology, the choice of this terminology rather than a value free description such as want.  I've dealt with the point, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Guleni, your evidence is that you were disturbed by the killing of Mr Hani, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes, correct.

MR SMUTS: Did you follow events on the television and in the media after the killing of Mr Hani to discover what had happened in respect of his killing and thereafter?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No we just watched the incident.  After that we couldn't be able to watch news again until the incident occurred.

MR SMUTS: Did you not listen to radio news or read a newspaper between the killing of Mr Hani and your killing of the Weakley brothers?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No we didn't.

MR SMUTS: How then did you come to know, if you didn't follow events in the media, that a list, a so-called hit list to which you referred, had been discovered?

CHAIRPERSON: Was the media the only source of that information?  I don't ...[intervention]

MR SMUTS: According to the witness's application, Mr Chairman, he says so in his application.  It's at typed page 6.  You say, Mr Guleni, on page 6
"We also believed as it was also reported in the media that there is a list of other leaders of ANC and it's allies in the hands of the enemy."

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this, did you what you believed about this list, existence of this list, did you get that information through the media or through some other source?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Although I cannot remember exactly but I believe during the evening when it was our first time to hear about the death of Chris Hani, it was uttered that there is a hit list so I believe I got that information that time but after that we couldn't have a time of watching news, reading papers, we were so busy to do that.

ADV DE JAGER: Weren't you afraid after reading about this hit list that they might have killed other people in the mean time?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja, we anticipated that it could happen but ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: But you were not interested in watching the media or the TV to see whether it happened?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We couldn't have time to do that.

ADV DE JAGER: Three days and you didn't have time to look at a newspaper or listen to the radio or the TV?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja.

MR SMUTS: If you became aware then through the media as you say in your application of the existence of the so-called hit list, you would also become aware because it's a matter of public record that amongst the names that appeared on that list found in the possession of the assassin of Mr Hani, appeared the names of the then Foreign Minister, Mr Pik Botha and at least two reporters employed by Afrikaans medium government supporting newspapers?  Do you recall that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that Mr Smuts?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I put it to the witness that it was a matter of public record that on the so-called hit list found in the possession of the assassin Walus appeared the names inter alia of the then Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Pik Botha and two journalists employed by Afrikaans medium government supporting newspapers.

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I don't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smuts I seem to - all the Panels have been provided with submissions made by the African National Congress, it's quite a thick voluminous document, I mean particular about the hit list, there was mention of two hit lists.  I mention this only as a submission in terms of that document.  I don't know whether that is true or not.  Are we talking about two hit lists maybe, perhaps?  There hasn't - there wasn't a copy of any hit list on the submission though, I have to point that out, so I don't know if there's a bit of confusion?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I'm just dealing with the research that we did in preparation for this hearing and we went through the press reports of the time and there was a report shortly after the shooting of Mr Hani which reflected that once the possessions of Mr Walus had been found what was described then as a hit list which included members of the African National Congress, Mr Slovo, Mr Maharaj but also included Mr Pik Botha and these journalists from Rapport and Beeld.
	You have no recollection of specific names on the hit list to which you refer?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I have none.

MR SMUTS: Why did you mention in your report that it was reported in the media that there was this hit list?  Is that where you got the information from, from the media?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: We have not been able to find any press coverage which suggests that news of that hit list was released on the day of Mr Hani's assassination when you say you watched it, the news broadcast on television?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I don't remember by now.

MR SMUTS: Is it possible then if you received it from the media that you received it, that information, not on the day of Mr Hani's assassination but thereafter?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I couldn't remember myself after the day of Chris's assassination watching news so to me it came to my knowledge at the time at the first time I came across the information that Chris has been assassinated.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it only have been through the media where you got information of this hit list?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How else would you, could you have got that information?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We could also get the information from our upper structures of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't remember now exactly which source was it that you got that information?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I can't remember exactly.

MR SMUTS: Mr Guleni, to the extent that you seek to rely in justification for your actions on a potential right-wing threat at Port St Johns, are you able to give the Committee any greater detail than Mr Hermans did regarding facts on which your suspicions of a right-wing infiltration were based?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I can, but not as exactly as Pumelele did, but I can up to my own ...[indistinct]

MR SMUTS: Well, what I asked of you was whether you could give any greater detail than Mr Hermans had given, are you able to do that?