Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MOSES VELI LLALE: What I understood that day was that if we noticing or noticed that the guards downstairs they were being overpowered we should try to get the concentration on us at the time depending on how that would be done.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: After the first shot that you fired in the direction of the man with the AK47 as I understand your evidence after that you went down behind the parapet wall. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And when you stood up for the second time and looked down you mentioned that it was chaotic, there was a lot of confusion. Don't you think that at that stage that already accomplished your instruction or your order that was given earlier on?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The most important thing was that the person who had that gun was retreating so in my mind then I thought he was just hiding. I did not necessarily think that he was retreating. I thought he was hiding. Maybe looking for a place where he could hide himself.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Did you say that you thought the person was retreating so that he could find a better spot to shoot from?

MOSES VELI LLALE: (... no English translation)

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just one further aspect. If I understand your evidence yesterday correctly you mentioned a certain man which you think could have been an induna standing in front of one of the groups before they charged. Can you tell me in front of which group this man was standing? Was it the group in de Villiers Street or the group coming down King George Street?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The two groups when they reached the intersection of King George and de Villiers merged. That is when I heard that person talking though I did not hear exactly as to what he was saying. I also heard others responding.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just lastly I want to put to you that the objectors on whose behalf I am appearing their positions are exactly the same as those of the objectors. No further questions.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: .

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson I have got no questions. Just for the record the position for the objectors that I am appearing is the same as that of my colleagues.

MS VAN HYSTEEN: No thank you Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR TIPP: No thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions? Yes thank you very much you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin are you calling the applicant?

MR CURRIN: ...(inaudible) call the next applicant. The next applicant who is number 9. I would like to call him now if that is alright?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please do.

MR CURRIN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Potsane you are the 9th applicant in this application. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: (sworn states)

MR CURRIN: Your application for amnesty is dealt with on pages 113 to 117 of the bundle of applications. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: Yes that is correct.

MR CURRIN: And it is supplemented by a further affidavit which was signed by you on the 11th of May 1998. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: Yes that is correct.

MR CURRIN: This application as well as the supplementary affidavit both deal with your application relating to this particular matter. And the detail is brief in both these documents is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: Yes that is correct.

MR CURRIN: And who advised you to deal with the circumstances in a brief form?

NEO POTSANE: My legal representative advised me to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

NEO POTSANE: My lawyer.

MR CURRIN: Thank you. I want to lead you through your personal details just by way of introduction so that the Committee knows who you are and where you are coming from. You were born in 1960. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: Yes that is correct.

MR CURRIN: And that was in Johannesburg, Soweto?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: You went to school in Welkom and continued your schooling until 1977 when you were in standard eight is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: You stopped your schooling in 1977 as a direct result of the Soweto riots and you then went into exile and joined the African National Congress and UmKhonto we Sizwe. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: You trained in both Angola and East Germany and thereafter you worked in military structures of MK until May 1986 when you returned to South Africa. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: In May 1986 you returned to the country and you infiltrated, well you infiltrated and you got involved in military activities on behalf of MK and you were arrested in September of the same year. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: Following your arrest you were charged and prosecuted in respect of certain activities and you were then sentenced to death in 1989. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: With regard to those activities referred to you have applied also for amnesty and that amnesty hearing will be heard at a later stage. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: In 1990 your death sentence was commuted to 25 years and in 1991 you were released as part of the political transition process that was under way. Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR CURRIN: It was my understanding of that particular release it was a political agreement that was entered into between the African National Congress and the then government of the day. He was released on parole. You might recall that there was an agreement in regard to certain prisoners at a time that the negotiations had stalemated and in order to get those negotiations back on road a whole lot of people were released on parole.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CURRIN: What are you, where you employed presently?

NEO POTSANE: I am employed with the South African Secret Service.

MR CURRIN: In Pretoria?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: At the time of this particular incident which is the subject matter of the application where were you employed and in what capacity?

NEO POTSANE: I was employed at the head quarters of the African National Congress as a technical security technician.

MR CURRIN: Can you just briefly tell us what that means?

NEO POTSANE: Well it means that we were actually required to install technical security gadgets in houses or (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear what you are saying. Technical what?

NEO POTSANE: Security gadgets. Now in the houses of the leadership.

MR CURRIN: Thank you. I want to refer to the particular day in question when this incident occurred. You went to work on that day. How did you get to work?

NEO POTSANE: I walked from home.

MR CURRIN: And what time was that?

NEO POTSANE: I normally left home I think at around eight in the morning.

MR CURRIN: Was anything unusual about what was happening on the streets on that particular day which you witnessed while walking?

NEO POTSANE: Yes there was you know quite, when I was working towards work on the way I could see people running and I will see now like groups of marchers. But not large groups of marchers going about en mass and that maybe they were going to their rally which I had known that it was going to take place.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) maybe I am getting old. Maybe it is the tone of his voice. But it doesn't come to me sufficiently clearly so please take it easy so that I can hear what you are saying.

NEO POTSANE: Yes Chair.

MR CURRIN: Just repeat that answer?

NEO POTSANE: On my way to work I often you know see like people running helter skelter you know and as a result I will see like groups of marchers but not large groups of marchers and which means people were kind of running away from them you know.

MR CURRIN: So these were groups of marchers. Could you identify if they had any political affiliation?

NEO POTSANE: Yes they were IFP marchers.