Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know about the people who were in charge as far as safety was concerned at the hostel.  I know that there were measures that were taken at times so that they could acquire things that will be used for our protection.

MR LAX: Could I just follow up on that, you said you knew there were measures taken to acquire things for your protection.  Who organised the acquiring of those things, as far as you could see?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: We will be called to a meeting by Damarra Chonco and they will tell us that we need to collect some money so we could purchase some firearms.  They will be the one address us more often than not.

MR LAX: Who would you give the money to?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't quite remember as to who we will be giving the money to.  In actual fact I would not give any money because I wasn't employed, but most of the people who used to contribute were the ones who were employed.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Who was in control of weapons at kwaMadala Hostel?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know.

MR BERGER: The reason you don't know Mr Tshabangu is because you know that Mr Vanana Zulu was in control of weapons at kwaMadala Hostel, isn't that right?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It is not so, I came here to ask for amnesty against my heart and in a position of wanting to reconcile with my people.  There is no reason why I should implicate other people.  It is my life and I'm the one suffering.  I have no reason also to protect other people, including Vanana Zulu.  I have no reason whatsoever to protect him.

MR BERGER: Except fear?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I have no fear.  If I fear something I will report that to the police.  I will lay my story to the police.

MR BERGER: Vanana Zulu has been present every day of these hearings.  Isn't it because he was the leader of kwaMadala Hostel, and he's come here to make sure that he is not exposed.  Isn't that what's happening?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes he's a controller at kwaMadala Hostel, as well as Vaal Triangle at large.  I don't know whether he's here to make sure that, or to ensure that he doesn't get exposed, but one thing for sure, as far as I am concerned I will never protect him.

CHAIRPERSON: See, Mr Berger quite frankly you will recall that the last time we were here, Mr Vanana Zulu was implicated and I made him to stand up and enquired of him whether he wishes to be legally represented, and I also advised him that he has to be here, and that's why he's here.   Do you think it's a fair question?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have no doubt that Mr Vanana Zulu has a right to be here.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just looking at - because you're putting it as a fact that that's the reason why, that's not a fair question.

MR BERGER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And that he has all the right to be here.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Vanana Zulu sits with the applicants;  he associates with the applicants during the adjournments;  he is always in the company of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, so what?  He is here because he has been advised that he must be here if he wishes to be here.  And he is legally represented as I understand the position, by Mr Strydom.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I take the ruling.
	Mr Tshabangu, you say that Mr Vanana Zulu was not only the leader of kwaMadala Hostel, he was also the leader of the entire Vaal, correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: When you're referring to 1992 backwards, he was a leader at kwaMadala Hostel.  After the situation got stable, especially after the elections, when there was stability, he became a leader of Vaal.  That's what I'm trying to explain.

MR BERGER: So what you're saying is that at the time of the attack Mr Vanana Zulu was the leader only of kwaMadala Hostel?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: According to my knowledge it is like that.

MR BERGER: Now Mr Mthembu says that Vanana Zulu was in control of the weapons;  that he hid them at kwaMadala Hostel;  that he handed them out, and that he was the person who told the residents that they had to contribute money for the purchase of guns.  Do you confirm that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I do not confirm that.  What was uttered by Victor Mthembu has been uttered by him.  I stand firm on my words by saying he was a leader.  I don't know him to be controlling the weapons.  I bear no knowledge in as far as controlling the weapons is concerned.  Those are my words and I stand by them.

MR BERGER: You also say that you have no knowledge of the fact that there were 40 to 50 men from Umsinge who had to be maintained by the residents of kwaMadala Hostel, and that the residents were afraid of these men from Umsinge.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, I bear no knowledge.

MR BERGER: You also bear no knowledge of any self-protection units set up to defend the residents of kwaMadala Hostel?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: There was no self-protection unit.  Every person who was a resident there, it was his entire responsibility to protect the hostel.  So it was everyone's responsibility to protect the hostel.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that all the residents of the hostel were divided up into small units?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That I don't know.

MR BERGER: For a person, Mr Tshabangu, who claimed to be so concerned about safety, your safety and the safety of other people at kwaMadala, I put it to you that you display an amazing level of ignorance regarding the structures which had been put in place to defend kwaMadala, and to launch attacks from kwaMadala.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I stand firm by my words that I was not aware at any stage about the protection unit - the groups of protection unit, and the people around 40 in number from Umsinge who were feared by people, that we used to contribute towards their maintenance.  If somebody else takes this as if I should be knowing everything and all the activities that were going on at the hostel, I think a person will be highly mistaken if he takes me to be that kind of a person.  As a police, people will not come near and closer to me because they were always suspicious.  So I wouldn't be too close to the people, that's how I got to be ignorant.

MR BERGER: I will just ask one more question on this point and then move on Mr Tshabangu, you say that the people at kwaMadala also didn't like you because you were a policeman, but be that as it may, you nevertheless attended many meetings where these things must have been discussed?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I did not say they did not like me as such, what I'm saying is that people were suspicious.  People get to be suspicious when you are a police and in a battle position.  They will always think you are coming to be an informer, especially when it comes to political matters, people will highly suspect a police as an informer, but I will definitely attend their meetings.

MR BERGER: And yet on approximately the 10th of June you were one of the people who was most vocal about the need to do something about the situation, and as a result a decision was taken - or in fact an order was given, in your presence, that Boipatong was to be attacked.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I did say that.  It was not necessarily said that we shall attack Boipatong and that Boipatong was a target.

MR BERGER: I'll leave that contradiction alone Mr Tshabangu.  On the 14th of June 1992 there was another meeting in the hostel.  That meeting was addressed by Themba Xhosa and a man called Dlamini.  You say you no knowledge of that meeting?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you have any knowledge of this man Mr Dlamini?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: What is his first name?  I will answer you as soon as you furnish me with that information.

MR BERGER: His first name is Mr, and he was sent by a minister in the kwaZulu Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger do you know the first name of Mr Dlamini, or don't you know it?