Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

RUSSELL ALLY: Were you aware of the fact that when this issue of you being removed from Kwandebele was discussed with the South African government or members of the cabinet of the South African government, that Simeon Gouws was actually present and that he supported the recommendation that you should be removed from Kwandebele and the reason that was given was firstly that you were meddling in politics, secondly you were not restoring law and order, that the situation in Kwandebele was out of control and that you were not prepared to take the necessary steps to restore law and order.  How would you respond to that?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, law and order we did have, I did not get myself involved in politics.  I did not get involved with anyone.  I did not involve myself with the Kwandebele government, I did not involve myself with the comrades.  I see that Professor Gouws made an allegation which borders on the fact that he regarded me of treason, that I identified with the radicals but really, Chairperson, a liar always says things about other people but you can ask Prince James the ngonyema, I never had any contact with them.

RUSSELL ALLY: The case though General that you felt that the main cause of the conflict was this question of independence
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and that these plans for independence should be shelved, should be stopped.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, to me as a person it was a simplistic idea for a piece of land such as Kwandebele to declare it as an independent state.  As I said, such an independent state had to be economically viable.  You cannot say we have got 400 to 500 000 workers in a certain place.  There are no mineral resources, there are no factories except the few at Gungala.  How was the state supposed to survive as an independent state?

RUSSELL ALLY: So it is the case in general that you were taking up a political position because the policy at the time of the government was homelands and the idea was to move towards independence.  So you were actually saying that that policy, that political position for Kwandebele was not necessarily the best position.  So you were taking a political position, not so?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: If you look at it from that perspective, Chairperson, then it is probably a political opinion but to me it was more of a realistic view and to add to that if the people wanted independence, if these Ndebeles said, say 70 to 80 per cent of them said look we want independence we will survive on our own like the Israelites, then it was a different story but it was quite clear that that was not the case.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yesterday there was a suggestion of a close relationship or a special relationship between you and a certain Chris Kendall who was a security officer at Bronkhorstspruit.  Do you perhaps want to comment on that?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, Chris Kendall was the branch commander of the security branch in Bronkhorstspruit and
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this area also fell under that.  So under those circumstances we liaised with each other. He was not a friend of mine, he was an acquaintance at a work basis and perhaps he did not say so but in his heart I am sure he felt the way I did although he did not express it.

RUSSELL ALLY: Chris Kendall was mentioned in connection with the plan or the planning of the assassination of Piet Ntuli.  That he was actually involved with those who eventually carried out the assassination, they were here yesterday, Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter, Jacques Hechter.  Do you have any knowledge of those incidents, those events?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: If you mean that Kendall was involved with these people I do not know about it.  If you are referring to the death of the late Piet Ntuli then I know how he died, I was called from home that night to the scene and I also took Gerrie van der Merwe with me.  But that there was any liaison between Kendall and Jack Cronje, I do not know Hechter.  Cronje was Kendall's commanding officer.  He was the commanding officer of the Northern Transvaal security  branch and Kendall was the station commander of Bronkhorstspruit who fell under Cronje.  So the two of them obviously had to have been in daily contact because the one was the other one's boss.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you have any personal knowledge of any violations which were committed during the period when you were the commissioner of police, especially after 1985?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I do not know what it is that you regard as violations.

RUSSELL ALLY: The Act that established the Commission, General, gross human rights violations is seen as torture, disappearance or abduction, severe ill treatment and
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killing.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, from the police side the people whom I brought to Kwandebele with me, the people who worked in commanding positions with me, I do not believe that they were involved in any such violations.  It depends on where one draws the line.  Several times rubber bullets were fired, tear-gas was sprayed, but where a man was detained and tortured and murdered by the police I am certain it did not take place in my time.

CHAIRPERSON: General, I only have one or two questions.  What we were told here yesterday seems to conflict with what we are given.  Yesterday we were told that it was the people in Moutse who started attacking the Kwandebele people and except a few minor incidents that happened as a result of the Kwandebele people perhaps reacting to the provocations from Moutse people otherwise people in Kwandebele were very peaceful with regard to the whole issue of consolidation of Moutse into Kwandebele.  Would you say that that kind of a report is correct, General?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, as far as my memory serves me, Moutse's people did not attack Kwandebele's people really.  One could probably ascribe ordinary assaults and such to torments and provocation but there was no account of Moutse's people being in Kwandebele. If you say that the Kwandebele people were peacefully vis a vis the Moutse people I would like to say that before this incorporation story the people were quite peaceful.  The Kwandebele people had nothing against the Moutse people and even the Moutse people had absolutely no animosity against the Kwandebele people.  Several Ndebeles lived in the Moutse area, here at Quarrielaagte a whole lot of Ndebeles lived in the Moutse
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community.  There was peace among them all and I would like to mention another incident.  There was an incident after all these stories that there were Ndebeles living at Saaiplaas and that these people were also wanting to be incorporated to Lebowa and I heard that they were going to be told and they were being told that you are going to go to Lebowa and after everyone had left I stood there against approximately 1 500 angry people who were spitting and who were armed with sticks and so forth and this man asked me, the chief there, William Mahlangu, asked me why do you whites always want the black people to clash because we have got nothing against Lebowa's people but we do not want to be forced to be incorporated into Lebowa and we do not want to move to Verena because that was the alternative to moving to Lebowa.  We just want to live in peace as we are now living here and I said to them but I am not the lawmaker here, I am  merely an official and fairly enough they let me go in peace.  Thank God for that.