Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

MR PRIOR: Just to be fair to you, because I think there's ...(inaudible) and you've agreed with it, the Moleko Hotel, the Sterkspruit Hotel attack happened after this ambush we're talking about today.  I thought we'd established that earlier from you.  Now I don't want you to end up being confused and agreeing to something you didn't necessarily agree with.  I just want you to be clear about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, will there be any evidence from the Police as to when these attacks did take place?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I have that available.  I don't have it with me now, but it will be available.  Mr Chairman, the thought has just occurred to me that Sterkspruit is a common, is an attack in which both applicants feature, or certainly indicate on this application, but I see it's not, it hasn't been prepared as part of the hearings.  I feel that in, I understand that there was no gross violation in the sense that people weren't killed or injured in that matter, but I believe that that matter could be presented, I think conveniently during this sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think it's a matter you can certainly discuss with their attorneys.

MR PRIOR: Yes, otherwise it makes no sense if we simply deal with the matter at hand and leave Sterkspruit for some other time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we will be adjourning fairly soon.  You can talk to them.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know is, Mr Lax is relying, as he is quite entitled to do, on the information contained in the applicant's affidavit.  But have we more reliable information as to when the hotel attack and the garage attack took place.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I can get that within minutes.  If we could take, maybe take the adjournment at this stage.  I'll have that information very quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll do that.  We'll take the adjournment so you can discuss this.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, for the record, I was able to establish via the Police that the Sterkspruit Hotel matter or incident occurred on the 27th of October 1992 and the sum involved there was R65 000,00.

CHAIRPERSON: 27th ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: 27th of October 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sum was?

MR PRIOR: R65 000,00.  Mr Chairman I also endeavoured to find out whether there was any information, I understand that despite diligent searching to the documents the Police docket, if there ever was one, is just not to hand.  That matter occurred within the Transkei as it was then known.  We've been unable to locate any documentation regarding any investigation relating to that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: And the garage?

MR PRIOR: We haven't been able to get any information on that as yet, Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.  I understand from the Tsemane family, Miss Alda Tsemane has a few questions to put to this applicant.

MS TSEMANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am Ida T Tsemane.  I am a daughter to the late Mr James Tsemane.  I want to ask you Thabiso, as you arrived in Sterkspruit in 1992 is there a house were you giving accommodation before you went to Jozanna where you were hiding?  Can you please tell this house who accommodated you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I arrived at Mr Mbele-Mbele's house where he took us to his house in Jozanna's Neck.

MS TSEMANE: Is that the only house belonging to Mr Mbele-Mbele which you used to frequent in Sterkspruit?   Because that Mr Mbele-Mbele is a PAC member.  Is that the only house?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, also Jozanna's Hoek, at the house of a person which I said I don't know his name.

MS TSEMANE: Would you, would I be wrong if I say I saw you many a times going to Sterkspruit in town?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I used to frequent to town.  I won't agree with you when you said, you say you seen me a lot of times in town.

MS TSEMANE: When I say I see you, I saw you in a house in Sterkspruit.  Would you agree with me?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Could you please explain what you are saying when you say you saw me in Sterkspruit.

MS TSEMANE: Would I be wrong by saying that I saw you a lot of times in Sterkspruit?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There are black people staying in town at Sterkspruit and I used to visit them.  Visit their work places, so I don't know in which house did you see me.  You know exactly there is only one house.

MS TSEMANE: When you went to conduct your attack, it seems as if you hiked, you hitchhiked on a truck.  Where was that truck from and where was it driving to?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The truck was from Sterkspruit heading for Herschel and we met the truck, I can't remember the names of places, but the met the truck just outside town.

MS TSEMANE: Did you go to town on foot?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, we did.

MS TSEMANE: When my father helped Mrs Brummer and Peter, did he see you, or was he just helping the victims who were struggling around the road?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I'm not sure whether he could see us or not, but according to the situation there we were in the road where everyone could see us.  But I don't know whether he could personally see us.  If he was here he could explain whether he could see us or not.

MS TSEMANE: Where you where everyone could see you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes.  We were right in the middle of the road

MS TSEMANE: Is it true that you killed my father because he tried to help the victims?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He wasn't in our plan of attack.  We didn't plan to kill him.  It's just that he got hit by a stray bullet.  We were not planning to kill black people.

MR PRIOR: Clarify, if I may, are you saying that you didn't aim at her father when these shots were going off, and there, because you must have seen him, is that what you're saying?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: As I said earlier I couldn't see that the person who was helping these white people was black or white.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) or not.  You intended to shoot that car and whoever was in that car.  Don't try and duck the issue by saying it was a stray bullet.  Please carry on.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We didn't intentionally kill him because we were aiming to kill white people, not black people.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) help the people escape, by killing the driver of the car.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, through you, I think the interpretation from Sesotho to English, I don't believe that the right word is used.  When he says "morero" I think he was saying it was not in their planning to have murdered Mr Tsemane, not that they were aiming at him, but it was not in the planning, that's my understanding.

CHAIRPERSON: But your planning was what you did when you picked up your guns and shot.  I agree it would not be in your planning before because you didn't know he would be there.  But when he stopped to pick up these white people, didn't you then shoot to stop him doing it?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What happened is that Comrade Phila shot at the car.  I don't know whether he was aiming for the driver, or where.  All I saw was the car going down the bridge.  If it were me who had fired the shot, I would be able to explain to the Committee whether I was aiming at the driver or aiming at the tyres.  Unfortunately it is not me who fired the shot.

MS TSEMANE: You said you stayed at Jozanna.  What name did you call the name, the owner of that place by?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Every time the owner of the house was there he didn't meet us.  He only met with our Commander.  That is why I didn't know his name.  He didn't come very often to that house.

MS TSEMANE: Where did he stay?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't know where he stayed.

MS TSEMANE: Do you know Pitso?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I don't know Pitso.

MS TSEMANE: Are you telling this house that you telling the truth when you say you don't know Pitso?