Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Sefola I'm going to ask you questions,you must answer them as I put them to you.   You heard the statementthat I made on your behalf, do you confirm what I said?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you advise the Committee how you feelabout the amnesty process?

ANSWER: I don't accept it because it's very much painfulto us the way they killed them.

<UNKNOWN>: When did you hear for the first time aboutthe killing of your husband?

ANSWER: I saw it on the city press on 28 January 1996and I read it, I read the city press.

<UNKNOWN>: What did you think had happened to your husband?

ANSWER: I did not know what happened it was about 8 years,it's then that I realised that he was dead because if he was stillalive he was a person who used to love his children, he was goingto visit the children so since it was too long, I realised thathe's dead.
1b

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR CURRIN 448 L SEFOLA

<UNKNOWN>: ...when you heard that he had in fact beenkilled?

ANSWER: It was very much painful to me but I was interestedin knowing the truth as to what happened to him.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you feel that you now know the truth asto what happened to him?

ANSWER: No I heard it yesterday.

<UNKNOWN>: How many children do you have?

ANSWER: I've got six children.   The first was born in1962.    The second born in 1965.   The third on in 1968.   Theother one was born in 1969 and I've got a one that's born in 1977and the one was born in 1980.

<UNKNOWN>: What did your husband do before he disappeared?(Beginning of sentences very indistinct).

ANSWER: He had just bought a shop in Witbank.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: It was a restaurant.

<UNKNOWN>: .....disappeared?

ANSWER: The business failed because he disappeared, Icould not manage it.

<UNKNOWN>: Who supports you and your children now?

ANSWER: I'm maintaining myself.

<UNKNOWN>: ....employed?

ANSWER: Only one.

<UNKNOWN>: Is there anything more you wish to say withregard to the application for amnesty and your feelings aboutthat?

ANSWER: The way they murdered them, I want them if theycould be taken to court they should come to us and tell us whathappened to them.   I want to know where they are and the mannerin which they did it, they killed them very
1b painfully /...
CHAIRMAN 449 L SEFOLA
painfully.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN
EXAMINATION BY CHAIRMAN

<UNKNOWN>: Your one child that is working, is he livingwith you?

ANSWER: Yes he's living with me.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible, no microphone).

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you able to pay their school fees and theirrequirements?

ANSWER: No it's difficult for me to do so because someof them they have already completed matric but they are sittingat home, they can't continue their schooling because I can't afford.

<UNKNOWN>: How many of them are at home?

ANSWER: Four of them.

<UNKNOWN>: They can't find work?

ANSWER: No, two of them are at school, actually threeof them are at school, one is at home and he's not working.

<UNKNOWN>: ...husband died he started a business in Witbank,he started a cafe in Witbank?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: What was he doing before that?

ANSWER: He was working for Coca Cola and then he decidedto buy a general dealer.

<UNKNOWN>: Where was this business?

ANSWER: In Witbank.

<UNKNOWN>: The house you live in, did that belong to yourhusband?

ANSWER: Yes that's my husband's house.

<UNKNOWN>: Has it been paid for?
1b ANSWER: /...
CHAIRMAN 450 L SEFOLA

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: What enquiries did you make when your husbanddidn't come home suddenly?

ANSWER: I went to mortuaries, I couldn't find him.  I went to police station, I reported the matter, I reported toMamelodi police station but the Mamelodi police didn't respondand I went back to Witbank police station and Witbank police cameto me and asked me if I found my husband.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mrs Sefola, Mr Currinmade a statement on your behalf that you know that your husbandwas politically active and that he was a member of the ANC.  Is that right?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: You also knew that your husband was politicallyactive but you don't know exactly what he did.   Is that right?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you agree that the evidence given by theapplicants about what your husband did, that you cannot disputethat evidence because you don't know what he did?

ANSWER: No I don't agree with the evidence because Icould tell if my husband was doing terrorist things.

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Sefola you testified that you don't knowwhat your husband did.

ANSWER: All I know is that he was an ANC member, I didn'tknow what he was doing.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE
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<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR MPSHE 451 L SEFOLA

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mrs Sefola can youread English?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: Just have a look at it.

ANSWER: I know how to read but I left my spectacles athome.   I can see here it's written that he was shot at....

<UNKNOWN>: You testified that you learned about the deathof your husband from a city press newspaper, do you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: Is that the newspaper that you read from, thatwhich I've just shown you?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: I have caused the copies to be placed beforethe members of the Committee as EXHIBIT K.

CHAIRPERSON: This will go in as Exhibit K, the photocopyof an extract from a newspaper.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman the date is not reflected on theclipping that was given to me but this is the one to which thewitness has just deposed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, the portion to our left didn't comeout, it seems to be also talking about this incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That is so Mr Chairman, don't you have it?  That is so, the left portion is a continuation of the main part.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, the right bottom continues onto theleft top?

JUDGE WILSON: : Do you think you could photostat them separatelyand give us the two sheets so we can read the, because on my copyof the left-hand side half of the first column is left out.
1b MR /...
MR MPSHE 452 L SEFOLA

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : I could endeavour to trace the original becauseI was also supplied with a copy similar to the one that I've giventhe members of the Committee.   I can try to perhaps get in touchwith the press people to give me the original.
EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Ma'am do you still have a copy of this newspaperat home?

ANSWER: Yes I still have a copy.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
EXAMINATION BY MR DE JAGER

<UNKNOWN>: What was your husband's age?

ANSWER: He was born in 1938, when he left he was 40 somethingyears, I'm not quite sure.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE JAGER
EXAMINATION BY MS KHAMPEPE

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Sefola did you know Mr Jackson Make andMr Andrew Makope?

ANSWER: I didn't know Mr Jackson, the only person I knowis Andrew.

<UNKNOWN>: .....Mr Makope?

ANSWER: Andrew was Freddie's brother, Freddie was myhusband's friend.

<UNKNOWN>: ...Mr Makope and your husband ever in a businessventure together?

ANSWER: No, Harold had a business in Witbank.   Andrewused to come to Harold in Witbank for advices if he had difficultiesin his business.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Sefola you read newspapers don't you?
1b ANSWER: /...
MR MPSHE 453 L SEFOLA

ANSWER: No I'm not reading newspapers all the time butsometimes when people are telling me there's an article in thenewspaper concerning my husband I do read it.

<UNKNOWN>: You further watch TV, the news and other stuffon TV?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: In your reading of newspapers sometimes andwatching the TV you've heard much about reconciliation?

ANSWER: Yes I heard.

<UNKNOWN>: You know how our present Government feels aboutpeople reconciling?