Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But this call up to move to Ventersdorp, to the Western Transvaal had gone out to the entire AWB membership, had it not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now give me a rough estimate, I know you've talked of six digit figures, is that the entire AWB membership you mention as roughly six digit figures?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is the total membership of the AWB Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you or anyone question why such a small percentage of people turned up at Ventersdorp, so soon before the election?  The question is, the election was on the 27th, my assumption is by the 23rd everybody was there?  Did anybody ask, or did you ask, why so few of you had turned up?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson I did not ask that.  I did not ask because the other members would have been spread around the Western Transvaal.  We would have been at specific places and there would have been other members at other places.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, there would have been.  Tell me as a fact, do you know if there were in fact other groupings in other parts of the Western Transvaal?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Afterwards I found out.  At that stage I did not know where the other people gathered but afterwards I learned from this specific Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever who was also gathered together with his special forces.

ADV GCABASHE: You learnt that Van Den Heever had gathered somewhere else in the Western Transvaal with his special forces, is this what you're saying?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now if you can explain those special forces to me because as I understand it Van Den Heever, to your knowledge, was still a member of the Defence Force.  Are you talking of Van Den Heever as a Defence Force member or as a member of the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson he was in the Wen Kommando in the Wen Kommando of the AWB.

ADV GCABASHE: So Van Den Heever was there in his capacity as a member of the AWB with his special forces?  That's what you understood?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, do you know if they were involved as special forces in any action at all between the 23rd and the 27th April 1994?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: So you really had this group of 75 people at the game park who decided that there was something they must do to, and I'm not sure about this, you'll help me Mr Fourie, either to ensure that they get a Volkstaat or to sow chaos before the election, one of the two or both?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: To spread chaos.  How did you put the question?

ADV GCABASHE: The reason these people were gathered in Ventersdorp and at the game park was for one of two reasons, as I understand it, or maybe both and the reasons are, one, to sow chaos before the elections and/or to ensure that you get a Volkstaat?  This is why these 75 people were there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At the beginning it was to protect the Volkstaat and then when the instruction came concerning the pipe bombs we were told to create chaos, if that is what you would like to know Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you, I'm comfortable with that.  Now, this change over to the creation of chaos, that came on the 24th, you understood this to be happening after hearing things on the 24th of April?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: At that point, how long did you expect to remain in the Western Transvaal?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Do you mean with that what was happening or in total?

ADV GCABASHE: No the context really is once the agenda appeared to have changed, you sensed this, that the agenda had changed from the long term goal to a short terms goal.  Having realised this, how long did you expect to be located in the Western Transvaal?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I expected everybody would move up to the Western Transvaal because we would be there permanently.

ADV GCABASHE: So Nico Prinsloo, and I'm here quoting from the summary of facts in Volume 2 and I know it's not what your evidence has been but what the State put together.  If you look at Page 13 of Volume 2.  15.3, these are things that Nico Prinsloo was supposed to have said when he was addressing the Natalians.  And I'm looking specifically at 15.3, that sentence,
"That the people would stay there for two to three months."

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's how I made the conclusion, yes at that specific place.

ADV GCABASHE: Now hold on.  I am saying to you this is what Nico Prinsloo is supposed to have said to the Natalians.  Are you now saying that you too drew this conclusion?  You also came to this conclusion?  Just help me with that.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I made that conclusion Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But this is precisely why I asked you a few minutes ago Mr Fourie how long you had intended to stay in the Western Transvaal after realising the agenda had changed because I didn't want to accept, you know what Prinsloo had said as being what you believed in as well.  Just help me with this.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I suspected, because we were placed in that protection unit, that we would stay in that vicinity for that period of time but in the Western Transvaal, for a longer time.

ADV GCABASHE: At this meeting with the Natalians, Nico Prinsloo didn't say anything at all about the Bree Street bomb being a bomb that  one of your groupings had set off?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot remember it in that way Chairperson.  I knew he spoke and said that the Boer crises action already took responsibility, I think he said for a power station or something to that effect.

ADV GCABASHE: In fact if you had to look at 15.2 that's exactly what he did say.  He mentioned the Boer crises organisation.  Now my question to you is, as a long standing member of this organisation, thinking about it now, wasn't it strange that Nico Prinsloo would not have used the Bree Street bombing as something with which to encourage all of you as a rallying point, saying, "come men come", we've already started doing this.  Wouldn't you have expected that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that could be Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But instead the motivation he used was something that the Boer Crises Committee may or may not have done.  Again very strange.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not follow.

ADV GCABASHE: All I'm saying, that instead of using your own acts to motivate the men, he uses the acts of the Boer Crises Committee to motivate people, isn't this strange?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, it would seem the case Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Fourie.  Thanks Chair.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, if I understand your evidence correctly, you moved up to Ventersdorp with the purpose to protect this Volkstaat, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage there was not a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I would like to understand, the establishment or founding of this Volkstaat, if I understand your evidence and you must correct me if I'm wrong, would take place in one or two ways.  Either the Volkstaat would be handed over or it would be taken, am I correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, you're correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this journey to Ventersdorp, the purpose of this journey was to protect this area, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the idea was that it would be established or if it's going to be given or taken, it will be established?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, we believed that it would be handed over to us.