Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

MR KNOBEL: I then interviewed Dr Basson in this regard and I said I want to know exactly what you did.  He explained to me that they had gone through only the technical or the scientific information of the two companies in great detail and had placed it on discs, and that it was now fully present on the discs.  I did not then proceed to try and access the information on the discs and try and establish by looking at documents and comparing what was on the discs, and actually going through the entire process again, which would probably take another year.  I'm saying to you that there were 13 CD rom discs which, if you take the full capacity of them would be an enormous amount of information.  I was satisfied that the technical information of the two companies were fully placed on disc.
 The second thing that I had to do, was I had to determine whether the technical documentation was then destroyed.  I had an undertaking from Dr Basson this was so, and I took the precaution of asking him to come to the next Co-ordinating Management Committee meeting where he could confirm that himself.  I explained that at the next meeting and it was so noted.

DR RANDERA: So the concern was basically just in regard to satisfying yourself, "vergewis homself" that all relevant information was correctly captured on these discs.  So are you saying that in giving effect to this, you had this interview with Dr Basson?

MR KNOBEL: Correct, and Colonel Steyn was present as well.

DR RANDERA: Alright, and Dr Basson made a report to you?

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

DR RANDERA: Which really was to the effect that, yes, Dr Knobel, I've done it correctly?

MR KNOBEL: Yes, sir.

DR RANDERA: And that was it?

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

DR RANDERA: And that's where we stand at this stage today?

MR KNOBEL: Correct, yes.

DR RANDERA: Do you think that is a satisfactory situation that pertains now, if I may ask you?

MR KNOBEL: No, obviously with hindsight now I will consider that one should have possibly gone through all those discs.  Our problem, advocate Potgieter is this, that both Colonel Steyn and I could have gone through the entire process of accessing all the information and insisting that none of the files should be destroyed until such a time as we had gone through it, which would have taken a full year at least again.  And of course, remembering that neither of us had the same chemical background that Brigadier Basson had, there was nobody else in the country that we could find or could ask to come and help us do this job, there was just simply nobody available.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you really try and find somebody who could have been competent?

MR KNOBEL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean you have being singing praises to Peter Falck throughout this whole period.  Did you really find out, did you make an audit of people who could have been available for ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: I did not have the authority to do that, no, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There was - you see, I think the problem we are faced with, General, with all due respect, is that there seems to be a laxness with which this whole thing was approached, you know.  Almost as though to say, it's just a job, that's the one view.  The other view of course, and which gives rise to a lot of speculation by a number of people who will hear these proceedings, is that there was collusion, and I'm sure you would really like to place yourself in a position where we shouldn't come to that conclusion, and I'm not even beginning to suggest that we are coming to that conclusion.  It's just that we are totally dissatisfied to see that people who had been placed with a very heavy responsibility to make sure that if there is a winding up of a company, it's done properly, if things have to be destroyed, they must be destroyed properly.  That you seem to take the word of your colleague, yes, I have taken hold of those things, Dr, I have done that, I have done what you said I must do.  You do not see to it that in fact it had been done.

MR KNOBEL: Mr Chairman, there were also other independent members of the Medical Service present in this process, both Dr Bothma and Colonel Steyn.

UNKNOWN: Dr Knobel, I don't want to use the description of Mr Vally about the value of those discs, those 13 discs, but is it fair the say that for all we know, we have 13 discs which don't really reflect the entire scope of this particular project and that they might very well be in circulation elsewhere, in the possession of others, the full information around the project, and that what the authorities are sitting with at this stage is really just a watered down - hoping that Mr Vally's words are not proved correct?

MR KNOBEL: Advocate Potgieter, I have said already, I think that's speculative.  I think there's only one way of determining what you are saying is possible or not, and that is to access the information, and I have recommended that to the previous Government and the present Government, and particularly after the trunks were found.  And National Intelligence can confirm this, we've actually on more that one occasion indicated, and in fact I discussed this quite recently with the Deputy President, and said that we need to access the information on the discs.  I believe that that will clarify a lot of issues reflecting to that now.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I - can I just say in conclusion again, one doesn't want to apportion any blame or nothing, but I think that, you know, you can understand this sort of alarm that this raises in one's mind, especially for us sitting here dealing with this topic, and seeing the potential that is locked up in all of this work that you have been engaged in, the absolute alarm in hearing this sort of thing, but as I say, I mean, it's not an attempt to apportion any blame or nothing, we're here to try and save the day.  But thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Wendy Orr?

WENDY ORR: This isn't a question, but addendum to Advocate Potgieter's conclusion, and that is that yes, we should access the discs, but so doing will not show us where the gaps are, because the only person who seems to have complete knowledge of the programme is Dr Basson and I don't think he's likely to tell us what has been left out.  And accessing the discs will not tell us whether or not that information has been made available to other countries, and I think we are all very concerned and alarmed, and I agree that this is speculation, but at the possibility that these kinds of things may indeed be the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree Dr Knobel that here our concern is in fact well-founded.

MR KNOBEL: What is true, Mr Chairman, is that those discs were handed over at this date, and from that date onwards they have not been available to anybody, that is true.  We don't know if the information on the contents of the trunks were made available to anybody else, we have the assurance that it was not.

CHAIRPERSON: We hear so many things that took place ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I know we hear a lot of things, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There are places here which are supposed to be like Fort Knox, NIA Headquarters, and things disappear, computers, cars, what have you, if we are to believe what we read in the newspapers.  So I am not - you are saying yourself that since those discs where placed where they were, nobody seems to have had access to them, in spite of your ...(indistinct)

MR KNOBEL: That is correct, and we discussed it with out American and British colleagues and they were satisfied, and so was the previous President, and so is the present Government, and they have maintained it in exactly that fashion.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to talk ill about friendly countries, because that's what they are, but I mean they are countries which have got their own agendas, but I'll leave it at that.

MR KNOBEL: No but that I agree with, we're in full agreement about that, Mr Chairman.