Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WILSON J: So you weren't at that stage contemplating burning the car?

WITNESS:   No.

WILSON J: If you had you would have left everything in the car and burnt it all at once.  If you'd known the car was going to be burnt there was no need to burn the numberplates separately.

WITNESS:   Well, the - no, the numberplates, the jacket and the wallet was burnt separately, but after burning it you could clearly still see the impression on the numberplates, so it was rolled up and thrown into the river.  But I suppose if one thinks that the car - if we knew that the car eventually was going to burn it could have just as well been left.

WILSON J: Because the car was identified as his immediately it was found, wasn't it?

WITNESS:   Exactly, ja, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And the knives you've told us about, is it correct that the hunting knife used was returned to Koos Schutte and was kept by a friend of his?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Paul Pretorius, and I've given his number in Pretoria in 1989.  It's a 5-7 number, and I can still show where the house is, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And you said also that he knew what the knife was used for, he knew the history of the knife.

WITNESS:   I knew it, but it was a precious hunting knife of Koos Schutte,

WILSON J: /and I knew

WILSON J: and I knew he would, as a confidante, take care of it, not to ever bring it forward.

WILSON J: Thank you.

WITNESS:   Thank you, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You made mention that - I think Nofomela and two others, each were given R1 000,00 after the killing of Mr Mxenge.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.  It was Mr Joe Mamasela, David Tshikalanga and Mr Almond Nofomela.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did they know beforehand that, quite apart from whatever allowances or salaries they were getting from the police, if they successfully killed Mr Mxenge they would get separate payment, specific payment for that?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  It was not at that stage in use in Vlakplaas.  That was the one and only time that anyone received money for an operation at Vlakplaas to that extent.  I did later learn that it was a - well, it was a kind of rule with the Kufoot contingent, and that is where it originated from.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But would I be correct to say that the payment they received was specifically for the work that they have done, namely to kill Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   That's correct, for the good work they've done, in the other way that they would usually issue medals to - for white operatives in overseas operations for the good work they've done, or in the Gene de Kock trial, in the same way they rewarded the three black colleagues of mine with R1 000,00 for the good work they've done.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And most probably had they bungled up the operation, or not succeeded in some way in killing Mr Mxenge, they would not have received this money.

WITNESS:   For sure not, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, somewhere in your evidence you mentioned that - or before I get to that.  You yourself, did you get

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /anything

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: anything for a like nature in respect of that incident?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  No white member ever in my time did get any money, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   No white members at all, or any other black members for that matter, got any money for any operations during my time at Vlakplaas.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was it standard practice to pay people for successful operations?

WITNESS:   As I say, that was the first and one and only time during my stay in Vlakplaas, but I believe it came out in the Gene de Kock trial, for instance, that it was common practice then in Namibia that you would bring back the corpses of people that you've killed, loaded onto the armoured vehicles, and they were paid R2 000,00 per head, which they divided amongst the units - the unit members.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Coetzee, if - I haven't look at the papers that Mr Maphumela's papers, nor that of Mr - the other gentleman, but if they were to say in the papers that they did not receive any financial benefit from the killing of Mr Mxenge would you agree with that?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If they were to say that they had not received any financial benefit as a result of the killing of Mr Mxenge would you agree with them?

WITNESS:   Absolutely not.  They will not deny it, they will admit it, I am sure, because that is the truth, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, earlier on just - I am moving on to something else.  Earlier on in the course of your evidence you said that the 11th Commandment was that you'd not be caught, but then you went on to say that even if you were to be caught you were told that it would be sorted out.  In

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /other words

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: other words you would be helped out of trouble.

WITNESS:   There will be - you will be helped in the end, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can you tell us in broad terms in which way you would be?

WITNESS:   I can.  For instance, not in the Security Police set up, but with the specific case of Captain Jack Le Grange and Sergeant Robert van der Merwe, who murdered two drug addicts and seriously wounded a third one.  At a stage after Almond Nofomela was sentenced to death in 1987 - I think it was round about '88 - they received two death sentences, the two white policemen, as first offenders, and 18 years for the one that they injured seriously.  Eventually their sentences were commuted by the State President to 25 and 15 years, and after three and a half years they are out on the streets.  Whilst Almond Nofomela, as a first offender, murdering a white farmer in 1986, received the death penalty only once, his sentence was commuted to 20 years, life in prison.  So what I want to say, if they want to help you there is a political will, there's a way out, like in the Jack Le Grange/Robert van der Merwe case.  Three and a half years, two murders, a serious assault, GBH with intent to kill, and they are out on the street.  So that is the 11th Commandment.  There's also the classic example of Major Menz, who's also now frequently mentioned, who was involved in quite few incidents.  He was at a stage in gaol for two years, or they received a year's sentence on two charges of assault, and after a few months General Johan Coetzee got them out of gaol in 1980/81, and the lately - I think he's still in the police, a major in the police.  So they were caught, had to go through the channels, and eventually was then helped in that way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /Captain

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Captain Coetzee, during the hearing of some of the applications we were told that there was yet another level at which senior policemen could come to the assistance of some people, and we were told that they could in fact frustrate investigations, or cover up.