Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, all I know is that certain statements had been made available in which members, some were Section 29 statements, some of them were under pressure for various reasons and from these statements I can now say that there had been allegations made by some of these members.  I have no problem to admit to anything that I was given orders for, but I, in the size of the structure, I cannot call one or link one specific incident to a personality.

MR LAX: Sorry.  I'm just puzzled now.  You're confusing me Mr Verster, I'm sorry, please forgive me.  We're talking about the Evans case now specifically.  That was what was specifically asked of you and in relation to that you now said different allegations were made in different affidavits by various people, some in Section 29 detention, I just don't understand where all that is coming from in relation to Mr Evans.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, no I was under the impression that the question was asked if I can remember anything of any presentation that Mr Botha had made to me and  I am now inferring in one case that I can remember from statements that Evans was involved, and I was not directly asked what the matter was or what the case was regarding Evans.

MR LAX: Sorry, my notes are quite clear that I'm making as I'm going along here and I understood us to be dealing with the Evans situation, so maybe just for Mr Bizos's benefit, in relation to Evans, which is what I thought we were dealing with and which I'd like your answer on perhaps, the question was, are there any recommendations specifically from Botha, that you were aware of, that gave rise to the Evans decision?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I remember in on of the statements it appeared like this and I accepted it as that, that Botha went to his Regional Manager.   If his Regional Manager spoke directly to me or whether his Regional Manager spoke to me through Botha or a presentation was done in a specific place or in a room in a hotel, I can't remember the specific situation, but this is how the structure was created and I accepted as a responsible person that that could have been the case that he did indeed make such a presentation and that it handled about Evans and it was about the killing of Evans.

MR LAX: You see because they go further than that in their papers where they say that the next step was having made a presentation to you, you had to approve of it and take it next step up, so you would have had to have done something specific with that and that's why you're being asked these questions.  Sorry Mr Bizos, I didn't mean to interpose.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Well, it is not a problem for me.  I thought that I had said it, but if I did not say it then I am sorry, but what I am saying is that in the structure of Region  6 and about the killing of someone there were presentations that were made.  They were made to me and I listened to these presentations and I then went to the higher hierarchy in this process.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos before you proceed, I just want to get something, just one little point cleared up.  Whereabouts were you based Mr Verster, during your period as Managing Director of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In Pretoria, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And a person like Staal Burger, where was he based?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There is a perception that exists that the CCB had a building with structures.  This was not the case.  What happened is that every region had it's own area and I never physically went to those buildings and those people who worked from Jo'burg, so they had for every project or every part and every individual had his own building and then sometimes we went to a third place to meet and every now and again we would meet at specific hotels.

CHAIRPERSON: Most of the operatives in Region 6 let's say, were based in Johannesburg and Pretoria?  That's where they would ...

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us take the next person.   Do you recall whether Mr Maree made any proposal to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Maree could, together with Mr Staal Burger at times, I don't think there was a specific case where he alone had made a presentation to me, so once again I went through the channels.  He gave it to his Regional Manager and I would sometimes speak to the Regional Manager.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's supposition.  You have no recollection as to whether either through Mr Burger or in person, Mr Maree came and made any proposal to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot think of a specific project at this point, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And let's take Mr Basson.  Can you recall any proposal that he made to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In the case of Mr Basson, it was not his duty to make presentations to me.  He was the Co-ordinator of the region, Mr Chairperson, so the only thing that he did was that he organised what we already spoke aside and he would organise a meeting with the Regional Manager or he co-ordinates any administration between our Headquarters and also the Region.

GEORGE BIZOS: And he was also to procure weapons and arms in order that the killing may be done?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: He was the Co-ordinator in the formal structure of Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: Anyway, you've give us a reason why you say he never made any proposal to you.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was his appointment.  He was  a Co-ordinator.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And what about Mr van Zyl, did he make any proposal to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Once again the same thing.  He works in his own cell structure.  He talks to his Regional Manager and then his Regional Manager, if his Regional Manager thinks it's an important project, then we would meet.  We would co-ordinate or it would be co-ordinated by Mr Basson and in this way we would then take a decision or make a decision and then we would get the facts.

GEORGE BIZOS: But that's a generality.  Do you recall as to whether Mr van Zyl came to you either together with Mr Burger or alone to make a specific proposal to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, if I can remember correctly,  it was in the case of Mr Dullah Omar that such a presentation was made.  Mr Slang van Zyl, and it was in the presence of his Regional Manager and it was after several meetings that Mr Staal Burger or the Co-ordinator had spoken to me and at a stage we had a meeting in our hotel room in Jo'burg.

GEORGE BIZOS: Other than what you have already told us, can you recall whether Mr van Zyl made any further suggestion to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's go on to Mr Burger, the District Manager.  What proposals did he make to you personally?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: What we have already mentioned, that came from the cell structure.   As in the case with van Zyl and the case with Mr Botha, we had such meetings and then Mr Burger sometimes spoke to me alone and then later the rest of the structure would be added.  Those who were response ...

GEORGE BIZOS: You don't remember anything specific, other than what you have already told us?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson, there is nothing.  Nothing else.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Ferdinand Barnard, did he ever make any proposal to you either directly or through his manager?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Barnard, Mr Chairperson, only worked with us for a certain time during which he received certain tasks.  He had a handler with the name of Louis, but none of the projects as it was in District 6, were his responsibility.  At that time - his probation area was not in his time and I was not aware of the fact during this time that Mr Barnard worked with Mr van Zyl or Mr Botha.  It was against the regulations and I only later heard that he worked with them.  This was the handler of Mr Botha, sorry the handler of Mr Barnard.

GEORGE BIZOS: Got any other names?