Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I didn't take notes on that aspect but perhaps we should ask him.

MR TSHOLANKU: I also agree, we should ask the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear about this march for the first time?

WALTER SMILES: The same day.

CHAIRPERSON: What time?

WALTER SMILES: I really remember the exact time, it was in the morning but I can't remember the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Professor de Koker?

PROF DE KOKER: Then Mr Smiles, in the same statement on the same page about 40% down
"When I got out of the car there I wasn't informed of any grenade or anything, when I got out of the car there I wasn't informed of any grenade or anything, I was just given a piece of paper - a wrapped up piece of paper and there was a grenade inside"
When did you get the instructions to throw this hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: I got the instructions as we got out of the car.

PROF DE KOKER: Yesterday you said you got the instruction inside the car.  Did you get the instruction inside the car or when you were getting out?

WALTER SMILES: Then you confused me.

PROF DE KOKER: What are you saying now today, when did you get your instructions?

WALTER SMILES: I thought about it very carefully.

PROF DE KOKER: And what do you say now?

WALTER SMILES: I got the instructions when I was outside the car.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm getting worried about you evidence.  I asked you yesterday:  "The conversation took place inside the car in the presence of the driver, so the driver could also hear"?  And you said: "Yes" .
	Now, how must I understand your evidence, now you come with another explanation and the impression I get is that you realised yesterday that you said the driver also heard, now you want to get out of that problem.

WALTER SMILES: I got the bag in the car together with the hand grenade but I got the instructions when we were out already.    (transcriber's own translation)

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you tell me yesterday that the driver could also hear it because the instructions were given inside the car?

WALTER SMILES: Because I was confused as the Committee is doing to me now -  I'm getting confused, I don't understand correctly.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry for interrupting you, you may proceed.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr Commissioner.   Thank you Mr Chairman.  On the same page, page 40 just of over half way.
	Mr Smiles, in June '96 you further told the Truth and Reconciliation Committee the following:    (transcriber's own translation)
"But you see I have no experience of this type of thing and when we went up it was all right and when we got there the petitions were handed over"
Further on:
"Then there was sign that I must throw this grenade and he lay down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak.  I had had no experience of this type of thing"
Did you have no experience of this sort of thing?

WALTER SMILES: What happened was the following:  I hadn't been trained but I was trained how to throw it, not personally trained.

PROF DE KOKER: How had you been trained?

WALTER SMILES: Always by taking a stone and throwing it like this.

PROF DE KOKER: So, you only knew how to throw a stone, not to throw a hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's right but you have the experience of throwing a hand grenade - you threw the stone like a hand grenade.

PROF DE KOKER: You have never previous thrown a hand grenade, you've always just practised with a stone?

WALTER SMILES: The second time I used a hand grenade was at the military base in Vergenoeg.

PROF DE KOKER: After this event - this was the first time?

WALTER SMILES: This was the first time and then I went to the military base and that's when I got good experience - training on how to throw a hand grenade and then I was taught very nicely inside the defence force.

PROF DE KOKER: Were there any other people with you in MK in Kimberley?

ADV DE JAGER: There might be some confusion here because I didn't understand the evidence as such yesterday.  Was this the very first time in your life that you threw a hand grenade - here at the Trust Bank?   (transcriber's own translation)

WALTER SMILES: This was the first time and the second time was at Vergenoeg.

ADV DE JAGER: But the second time at Vergenoeg, were you then already in the defence force?

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't in the defence force yet.

PROF DE KOKER: Were there any people with you in MK who had been trained or had experience in throwing hand grenades - who were working with you?

WALTER SMILES: As my commander explained, there were 110 of us but I didn't know who had been trained.

PROF DE KOKER: I refer the Committee to the first bundle page 9, 2nd paragraph, it's an extract from a supporting statement attached to Major Mbatha's amnesty application - 2nd paragraph, page 9 first bundle, that's the thinner one, the following is said
"I should indicate that the man I instructed was not just doing it for the first time but was involved in previous exercises which were a successful propaganda purposes"

WALTER SMILES: That is correct Mr de Koker, the reference here is to Vergenoeg to the military base where I was involved.

PROF DE KOKER: But those operations occurred after the Trust Bank incident, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: It is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: In other words, at the Trust Bank incident you have had no experience, you only exercised with a stone?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: So, the statement you made on page 40, last June, is then in this instance correct.
	Mr Smiles, it's interesting if we look at all the statements that you made, that some information only emerges later on.  In your '93 statement - if I may ask you pardon just for a second Mr Chairman?  Thank you for the indulgence of the Committee, I'd like to turn to page 40 of the second bundle:
	Truth and Reconciliation Commission in June 1996, you made no mention that the attack had any political purpose, why not?

WALTER SMILES: Do you mean the same scene?  No, I wasn't the person who should - it didn't come from the TRC, my commander came up this - I did what I was instructed to do.

PROF DE KOKER: What do you mean when you say: "He came up with this"?

WALTER SMILES: If he hadn't come up with that military base story, I wouldn't have come up with it either because I was working through him.

PROF DE KOKER: I think there might be a misunderstanding.  Mr Smiles, what I'm asking you is this: "In June '96 when you testified in front of the TRC, you did not say in your evidence that the purpose of this hand grenade - you didn't say what the purpose of this hand grenade was, all you said was you had instructions
"When I got out of the car there, I wasn't informed of any grenade or anything, I was just given a piece of paper"
And then you took the sign and then threw the hand grenade.  Why do it, what was the purpose of the hand grenade - of throwing the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: The purpose was, when the march will be returned that will be the sign for me to throw the hand grenade.

PROF DE KOKER: But why, why throw it?

WALTER SMILES: It was an instruction I took.

PROF DE KOKER: What was the purpose, what should have been achieved?

WALTER SMILES: The objective was for the hand grenade to enter the bank - the building and the purpose was furthermore for me to ensure nobody got hurt.

PROF DE KOKER: Chairman, thank you very much for your indulgence, I have completed my examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY PROF DE KOKER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Smiles, when did you join the ANC?

WALTER SMILES: I joined the ANC in 1991.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: From 1991 up till 1993 - the time of the incident, did you hold any position in the ANC?

WALTER SMILES: No, I was just a marshall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When did you join the MK, when did you become a cadre?

WALTER SMILES: I joined 1992.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just a year before the incident?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.