Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: What you know is what you are directly told.  I had overheard this, I was not told directly so I can't say to you that I was told or that I had knowledge, clear knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that when you overhear your Commander saying something to somebody else about an operation, you haven't got knowledge of it?

ZAMA THUTHA: When somebody is talking to somebody else and you overhear, you don't know really about that.
	Even when you are relating it, you are not going to be able to put it well in context.  You will know when the person is talking to you directly.

MR LAX: Did your co-accused not brief you on this operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: Before the operation?

MR LAX: Precisely.  Even at the point, at any stage before you commenced on the operation, in other words from the time you left Thandekulo's car, prior to that point, had you been briefed in any way about this operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, they did not tell me anything.

MR LAX: So your Unit Commander who was Mr Kulman, and your Regional Commander did not tell you about the operation.  You just overheard a few things while they were talking, is that what you are telling us?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: And that is why you were worried because you had overheard they wanted to get information from the man?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, when you walked towards the truck, you told us that your co-accused, Mr Kulman said to you that you must go to the back of truck and watch the people there, is that right?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is right.

MR LAX: Is that all he said to you?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is what he said to me.

MR LAX: Are you sure about that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Let me repeat this because the way you are asking me now, it is not clear to me.
	This is what happened, when we were going to the truck, my co-accused, when we were getting close to the truck, he told me that I am going to stand behind the truck, we want the truck and this man, this white man who is driving the truck.
	Anything else, I am going to hear from him.  I just had to stand behind the truck.  He then said this white man might resist, therefore I must be alert.  That is what happened.
	I stood behind the truck and he went towards the front.

MR LAX: You didn't see Donnie Meyers in the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did see her, but I couldn't distinguish whether it was a male or a female, I could see it was a white person though.

MR LAX: So when you were approaching the truck, you could see there was another person in the truck?  I am just trying to clear that up?  Or was it only at a later stage that you realised that there was another person in the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: It was at a later stage.  I couldn't see because the truck had tanks inside, at the back.  When you are standing behind the truck as well, you can't see who is inside the truck, in the front.
	You had to go around to see how many people there are.  Unless you come from the side or the front, then you could see.  We came from the back of the truck.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Botma.

ZAMA THUTHA: Between the two of us, there is only one person who first went towards the front of the truck, then he could see that there were two people.  I was just aware that there was somebody in the truck.

MR BOTMA: During this long explanation, you told us that your co-accused informed you that he was looking for the truck and the white man, is that correct, did you say that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: You told us now that before the time your co-accused told you that he is looking for the truck and the white man, he wants the truck and he wants the white man.

ZAMA THUTHA: Excuse me a moment.  My co-accused told me this about five steps before we got to the truck.  If the truck perhaps is by the door, he didn't give any long details because there were people around us as well, who had gone to buy milk.

INTERPRETER: The witness indicated a distance from where he is sitting to the door, however, he called that five steps, five paces.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it, 25 to 30 paces?

MR BOTMA: I would agree.  So, he told you that he wants the white man before you got to the truck, and before you started this operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: Pardon?  Please repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: So, before you started this operation, in other words before you got to the truck and he went to the left hand side, he told you that he wanted the white man and he wanted the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOTMA: After the shooting of Mike Meyers, you decided to get into the truck and you found the co-accused already inside the truck with Donnie Meyers, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, but this person was bent over, I could not see who she was.  I could just see that it was a person.

MR BOTMA: You the drove off with the truck towards the point where you were supposed to meet Thandekulo?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Was Donnie Meyers making any noises or sounds whilst you were driving towards the spot where you stopped later?

ZAMA THUTHA: I could not really take note because the truck was making a noise and there was an iron gate at the back of the truck.
	This was on a gravel road, therefore there was even more noise, because there were stones on the gravel road.  I couldn't really take note, because I knew that he was looking or concentrating on this person.  I was just looking ahead of me.

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that the girl was groaning and she was still alive and you could see that she was bleeding.  Do you recall saying that?

ZAMA THUTHA: It could be so, because as I said I might have forgotten some details, because this happened a long time ago.  It could be so.

MR BOTMA: Do you agree that at the time of the trial, it was closer to the incident than today, so it was more fresh in your memory?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOTMA: And can we then take from that, that she was in fact groaning as you were  travelling and you could see her bleeding from her head?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not see any blood.  Even the fact that you say that I said she was groaning, I can't remember clearly.  I am not disputing that, but I have said that some of the things that we have said, as I said that Mike Meyers was shot by Thandekulo, that is not true.
	I have told you that some of the things that we have said, were false.  Having denied knowing Thandekulo, yes, we know that Thandekulo is a comrade within the party.  There could have been a way that we find out exactly who Thandekulo was, but you have to remember as my co-accused also said, that we were hiding some information at the time.

MR BOTMA: During the trial you testified that she was bleeding and it seems as if she was bleeding from her head.
	Did you say that, can you recall saying that?

ZAMA THUTHA: I can't remember.  I hear you however, when you are saying that.

MR BOTMA: And you further testified that you actually felt sorry for this girl and you wanted to take her to a hospital, can you recall saying that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Previously?

MR BOTMA: During the trial?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR BOTMA: You also further testified that after Thandekulo shot her, you were on your way to the Police station to go and report this murder of this young girl at the Police station, do you recall saying that?

ZAMA THUTHA: I do remember.

MR BOTMA: And was that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, we were just trying to protect ourselves in the case.

MR BOTMA: Just take you back a short while.  When you, after Thandekulo dropped you, you walked towards this truck, what happened to Thandekulo?

ZAMA THUTHA: We left him behind.  Beyond that, I don't know what happened.  We just left and drove off, went ahead.

MR BOTMA: No, because you testified and I couldn't follow you properly there, that as you were going towards the truck, he followed you, but he did not go along with you.  What did you mean by that?