Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is my recollection at that stage, that only one vehicle came immediately.

MR HUGO: And was there another vehicle that arrived later?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: By whom was this vehicle driven?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure, I did not see that vehicle.  I just heard the vehicle arrive.

MR HUGO: Yes, and the passengers, didn't you see them?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: is it possible that this vehicle could have been driven by Mr Radebe and the other passengers being Mr Dube and Mr Mbane?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is possible Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Did you at all see them there that evening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman, they were there.

MR HUGO: And what were they doing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As far as I can recall, my recollection is that Mr Radebe and I presume the other members who were sitting in the kombi, relaxing.

MR HUGO: Were they in a position to see what was going on in that little room where the interrogation took place?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I am not sure Mr Chairman, I am not sure where the kombi was parked.

MR HUGO: Yes.  What was Mr Joe Coetzer's role, well, let me rather try and confine my question.  Did Mr Joe Coetzer from time to time leave the interrogation room to go and speak to the black members, being Mr Mbane, Dube and Radebe?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I do not recall that, I do not recall Mr Coetzer being in the interrogation room either.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Baker, did you keep a continuous watch on that vehicle in which you saw Mr Radebe and other members?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I left the base with Lt du Preez, so for that period I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but even while you were there, did you keep ...

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, I did not keep a continuous watch.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is possible that people from time tome could have got out of that kombi, walked around,got back in, that Mr Coetzer may have spoken to them or may not and you just didn't see it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And then after the incident, did you report to Mr Eugene de Kock as to what happened?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, not immediately after, I think it was the following day that I made telephonic contact with him and informed him.

MR HUGO: What did you tell him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I informed him that there had been an unfortunate incident where the person had died, and that this operation would be terminated as a result of the people not being able to carry on with it.

MR HUGO: You didn't tell him that an offence had been committed, you just said it was an unfortunate incident?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I told him that she had died and that they said that she died of a heart attack.

MR HUGO: And Mr de Kock, was he in Durban  or did he come down to Durban before you left for Pretoria?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure.  My recollection is that I had telephoned him.  If he had been in Durban, I presume I would have seen him personally.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.  Mr Samuel, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Baker, what time did you get to the Winkelspruit base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I recollect, it was in the afternoon.

MR SAMUEL: Were any vehicles at the base at the time when you arrived?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Taylor's vehicle was there and there were other vehicles standing around, I am not sure which vehicles were there.

MR SAMUEL: Where was Mr du Preez at that time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: He was not present Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: When Mr du Preez and Mr Botha arrived on the scene, were you present?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was speaking to Col Taylor in the sleeping facility when the vehicle arrived.

MR SAMUEL: Did you see them arrive sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: How do you know where you were at the time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I was at the base in the sleeping facility, one could hear a vehicle arrive Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: How long after that, after the vehicle arrived, did you approach the vehicle, or did you approach that vehicle?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, it was not very long after the vehicle had arrived that I went out and then saw that there was, well, that the people were in this room.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here, sorry, didn't you know that the people were in the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Walking out, Mr Chairman, walking out of the sleeping facility which was closed off from the front, I walked around it and the voices were coming from the room.

ADV BOSMAN: But at what time did Taylor leave you?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: On the arrival of the vehicle, if I am not mistaken, Capt Botha came to call him.

ADV BOSMAN: And you didn't know why he called him and where to he had called him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Well, I presumed when Capt Botha came to him and they walked around the corner, that they had possibly apprehended people because they said they were waiting to apprehend people.

ADV BOSMAN: But didn't Botha say anything to Taylor in particular that you ...

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, not in my presence, he just called him.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry Chair, if I may, you were sitting in that room, speaking to Taylor?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is the sleeping quarters.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: The sleeping quarters.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The concrete slab with the tarpaulin.

MR LAX: Yes, let's call it a concrete based tent, because that is more or less what it was.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: And how long had you been sitting there for, talking to him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, it was - I don't know exactly what time I got there, it could have been an hour, an hour or two.  I am not sure how long it was.

MR LAX: Yes, so it was quite some time.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: We had been sitting, discussing for some time, yes.

MR LAX: And what did Taylor tell you, what were you talking about?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, we were talking about, I had gone there to find out specifically if the teams, if he was happy with the way the teams were working, and where they could be deployed further because he was in charge of Port Natal C-Section, which is the Terrorist Section, and it was quite a large area which stretched I think from the Transkei to the Tugela and we were discussing the deployment of the team, which areas would be most likely for them to find returned terrorists.

MR LAX: You were also discussing why he was there and why he called you there?  You had gone there to meet him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I had gone to see him, yes.

MR LAX: Yes, you knew he was there, you had gone there to meet him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: So you must have spoken to him before that, and known that he was there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, I had contacted him, as far as I remember, I didn't know how to get to the facility and he had met me off the highway.

MR LAX: Correct.  Now, he must have told you why he was waiting there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I referred to, he told me about this operation as well, that they were waiting to apprehend these terrorists.

MR LAX: Yes, so when the vehicle arrived, he must have been waiting for them to arrive?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, he was obviously waiting for them to come.

MR LAX: Yes, so didn't both of you get up to go and see what had happened?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, I don't recall my getting up immediately.