Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR VISSER: Yes and you will see new faces there every time you get arrested and you will realise that they have brought in new people again.

WHITE MOHAPE: With some of the old, you know, being there.

MR VISSER: But fact of the matter is, the person, at least, who got out of the car was certainly not one of the known members of the security branch of Bloemfontein to you at the time, you have said that already?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now, the, oh yes, the other person, he remained behind the steering wheel?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you told us what this man said and you went with him and you got in first between the two of them and he got in, closed the door.  Did you look at the man on your right-hand side?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, you see, it was dark, you know, like when you are in a car?

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: You can see at a person for the first time in darkness ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... you may not know who is this person, you understand, and from there when they were talking, you know, my mind was that I am going home ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... you know, and when they were busy asking me questions about Cosas and UDF I was excited that, yes, at last, they are taking me home, but for me, at that time, you know, to scrutinise one's face, that never came into my mind at that stage.

MR VISSER: Yes, but let us try to run through this quickly.  We can start of by accepting you also did not recognise that person as a member of the security branch of Bloemfontein?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, because they introduced themselves as members of the security branch.

MR VISSER: No, no, no, that is not the question.  You did  not recognise him as a person whom you knew ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: ... to be a member of the security branch of Bloemfontein?

WHITE MOHAPE: You are correct.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is the point.  So, two strange people ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, sorry, let us take this a bit further.  You (end of tape 3B) say you could not see them and I accept that, it is a dark night, but there was a lot of conversation in the vehicle, was there not?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, there was.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did not recognise the voices of either of these two men either?

WHITE MOHAPE: You see, the situation is when you are put in into a car, somebody comes in and say we are security branch of, members, we are coming to fetch you and I take it for that, granted, yes, they are, because they have been sent to come and pick me up and I get into the car.  You see, to me it will never come until after I realise what happened.  It could have never come immediately to either sense somebodies voice to say, but let me put the voice of this person at the back or let me put the face of this person so that I recall ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I am not suggesting that, it is merely if it is a voice that you know well, you would have said, oh, ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... this is so and so.

WHITE MOHAPE: You are correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the point I am making.  It was not somebody whose voice you knew well ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: ... because you would have recognised it.

WHITE MOHAPE: Okay.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	You walk out of the police station and ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: ... it is at night, it is around ten, 11 o' clock?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: There are no street lights, nothing, ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no.

MR VISSER: ... is that what you are saying?  Is it dark there?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, do not try to confuse the situation.

MR VISSER: I am, Mr, please, I am not trying to confuse anything.

WHITE MOHAPE: What are you trying to do?

MR VISSER: I am trying to find out what your evidence is.  Was it dark or were there lights outside that police station?

WHITE MOHAPE: Why are you getting set up, you know, why are you becoming ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Because you are ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: upset?

MR VISSER: ... personal, you are being personal by saying I am trying to confuse things.

WHITE MOHAPE: Okay.

MR VISSER: Answer the questions.

WHITE MOHAPE: I am saying when you get into a car and the car it is outside, it is a normal course you see this lights, the streets light, yes, they are there, but it does not mean if there is a street light at that point I will then know that I am under this street light that can maybe light this person at the face.  You understand?  If something happens that you do not expect, you do not think you can ready yourself to read people's faces, you know, so that you recall them, because, if, like, you see, it is a situation when I am walking out of the police station.  When I am walking, because I am, to me I am excited that, well, I am going home, but at the same time I am saying it is a long distance from the police station to the taxi rank.
	A Bakkie stands next to me and somebody comes out and say are you White Mohape, I said yes, he said, no, we are the security branch and they never even mentioned their names, we are here to take you home.  It will not come into my mind to really, you know, put the face of that person into my memory, because it never, it was something that day  I never thought it, maybe it will happen to that stage where I will then have thought I could have maybe, you know, memorised faces of people.  Yes, it was not like that.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mohape, then, could, am I correct in understanding you, you did not recognise them and, notwithstanding the fact that as Chairman of Cosas, you made it your business to come to know the security police, at that stage you did not not think it necessary to try and identify these policemen?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, no.  I think this thing, honestly, people must understand it in the context it is, the situation it was and I will want to repeat it for you again. 	Yes, it was my duty to know a lot of these other security branch members, but always you will never know them all and it happened that that night the ones who came to me I did not know them and ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... and for that reason, for the fact that I was excited that I am going home and they are giving me their willingness, they introduced themselves as security branch members, you know, ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... I got into the bakkie, but have I knew that I was, I am going to be kidnapped, maybe at that moment I will have, you know, looked at them and memorised them ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... because this thing happened ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... you know.

ADV DE JAGER: So, I want to summarise your evidence in this respect.

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

ADV DE JAGER: Except for the fact that they told you that they were security policemen and, I want to add, except for the further fact that they were later joined by two other people, who demanded money from you ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: ... the R160,00 ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: ... there is nothing you could add to your evidence in order to convince us that they were security people of Bloemfontein or not?