Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

CHAIRPERSON: But surely, Mr Sithole, there wasn't any bus?  That was the only bus according to Mr Hadebe's version.  There was only one bus which was being used and that bus was being used by ANC, and according to him ANC and Fawu were one and the same thing.  So maybe if you could just clarify exactly what you want him to respond to because if you want him to respond to the nature of the bus that was to be attacked, I think he has already given evidence thereto.  It was to attack a bus which was used by either Fawu or ANC.  He draws no distinction between the two.

MR SITHOLE: As the Chair pleases.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Sithole, he also - and this is something you may want to clarify.  He hasn't to my mind, it's not clear, you asked him what was the precise decision and he's given a very vague answer.  Maybe you would like to clarify that.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks.  Thanks, Chair.
	What I want to know is what was the precise decision, what was the instruction given by the committee, the committee where you sat with Biela and the two Indunas as to how are you going to attack the bus and which bus are you going to attack?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, maybe let's take this in two stages.  I think I have it clear in my mind but maybe you may not and it may not be clear also to the other Members of my Committee.
	There are two meetings, there is this general meeting which is been attended to by the Executive Committee of the IFP, which is a bigger meeting which took a decision to attack a bus, then let's confine ourselves to the differences, what decisions were taken in respect of these two meetings which both occurred on the 27th, that's the Sunday.  Maybe if we could get clarity on which decision, specific decisions were taken by the two different meetings.  The first meeting, that's the bigger meeting that involved the Executive Committee of the local branch of the IFP, he as already testified that they decided that they will have to attack.  Maybe just find out what exactly was the precise decision in relation to what was to be attacked, were they going to attack, were they going to revenge apparently, to retaliate because Mr Mgababa had been killed allegedly by the ANC.  Then pursue the details of the decision, the precise details of the decision taken by the smaller meeting, the special group.

MR SITHOLE: I think Madam Chair, that is the point which I wanted to put forward.
	What was the decision of the committee which involved yourself, Biela and the two Indunas?

CHAIRPERSON: Amongst others, because there were also other people who were present at that meeting.  It was a bigger meeting.

INTERPRETER: There's no sound coming out.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the translators are not getting anything coming from Mr Hadebe's evidence and they are unable to translate.

INTERPRETER: We are but there ...(inaudible).
NO SOUND DUE TO FAULTY EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to attend to the technical problem?

INTERPRETER: I think we are fine now.

CHAIRPERSON: We would appreciate if Ms Thabete could come back because we are proceeding with Mr Sithole's cross-examination.  The technical problem has now been attended to.
	Mr Sithole, we won't wait for her.

MR SITHOLE: My last question was, what was the decision that was taken by the smaller committee which involved you, Biela, the two Indunas and the other people? - that is the second meeting on Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about the smaller meeting, because according to my notes the smaller meeting consisted of eight people, the smaller meeting.  Are you able to hear, Mr Hadebe?  Has the question been translated to you?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to respond to that question?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: The decision which was taken in that small committee meeting was that Thandogwake, the Induna, and Mhlongo, the other Induna, Zaccarehia Mhlongo, they were  the people who were supposed to take - when I say sticks I am referring to the bombs, they were the ones responsible to take these bombs and give them to the operatives who were going to be chosen by them.  This was agreed.  The Indunas were the ones who were supposed to chose the operatives.  The decision was taken that the Indunas will be responsible for choosing the people who were going to attack and give them the weapons to attack with.

MR SITHOLE: So by Sunday evening you had identified your target, is that correct?

MR LAX: That's not what he said.  You might want to ask him that but he hasn't said that yet, all he said is that the Indunas would be responsible for choosing the operatives.  He's said nothing more than that so far, in relation to the decision on that day.

MR SITHOLE: By Sunday evening, had you identified the target as yet?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: We didn't know that on Sunday evening, we came to know about this on a Monday when we gathered just before the incident, and that is when we realised who the operatives were.  We as committee members we figured that out that these were the people who were chosen by the Indunas to go and attack, but others didn't know that, why they were there and what exactly they were going to do.  The committee members knew about this.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you don't seem to comprehend the question that has been put to you.  What Mr Sithole has put to you is, by Sunday night, had you identified your target?  Your target being a bus which would be ferrying ANC supporters.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, we knew about that on Sunday, that the bus was going to be attacked, and specifically the bus which was used by the ANC supporters.

CHAIRPERSON: And at which of the two meetings did you identify your target, did you select a target?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to clarify one thing.  When we were sitting as a committee we came to a decision as to how we were going to attack and who to attack and where to attack, and we decided that we were going to attack a bus which had ANC supporters and we decided that the bus should be the one coming from Escort because that bus is the one that carries more ANC supporters.  Then we decided that the Indunas were the ones who were going to select the operatives.
	We didn't know on that meeting on Sunday who the operatives were.  In this committee meeting we didn't know, we didn't know who was going to attack the bus.  We only came to know when we were there on Monday in the other meeting which occurred on Monday.  We heard Indunas saying; you and you, you know what we've told you yesterday, now it's time for you to go and work.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've gone further than what my question intended to elicit from you.  So your response basically is that by Sunday you had already selected your target and your target was the ANC bus that would be carrying employees from Escort Bacon Factory?  Escort Bacon Factory is the name of the company.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, we've decided so on Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was a very short question and we wanted to elicit a very short response.  Try and just keep to what is being asked of you.
	Mr Sithole, you may proceed.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.
	On Monday the 28th when you came to work, didn't you feel guilty towards your fellow employees who would be boarding that bus that evening?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, I didn't feel guilty at all.

MR SITHOLE: And why is that?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, if I may.  I don't know if there's any real relevance to any of the applicant's testimony in this line of questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, maybe let's find out from Mr Sithole whether there is any relevance in respect of his feelings after the commission of this offence.

MR SITHOLE: That is, Your Worship, on Monday the 28th before the commission of the offence.  The information that I have from the victims is that on the 28th he acted strangely.