Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR LAX: You see, this goes back to the issue of how the items that were used for the torture were brought in and what preparations were made for that next phase of the interrogation and so on.  You've no recollection of that, did you not participate in that?  Is it that you did and you've just forgotten about it or you're not sure?

MR BOTHMA: I am not sure how the equipment that we used arrived there at the office, I don't know who brought it there, that is what I'm saying.  I don't know.  It is possible that Mr Botha had brought it in, it's possible that he sent somebody else to fetch it.

ADV BOSMAN: To exclude the possibility that you could have collected and fetched it?

MR BOTHMA: Definitely.

MR LAX: You don't know what happened to Mr Gordhan in that intervening time, was he left in the office, was he questioned further by you or other people in the meantime?  Did you carry on questioning him?

MR BOTHMA: I can recall he remained in the office.

MR LAX: Was he blindfolded, was he handcuffed?

MR BOTHMA: No, he was not blindfolded and he was also not cuffed.  He was only blindfolded during the second entry of Mr Botha.

MR LAX: So at the time - so we go back to the start of the second phase.  You or Duhr tell him to face the window and at that stage he is then - the hood is put over his head or at least over his eyes, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Was Botha in the room already, did he enter the room while he wasn't looking, while Mr Gordhan wasn't looking?

MR BOTHMA: I don't know whether Mr Botha was in the office at that stage because the lights were switched off.

MR LAX: So the lights were switched off and he was made to look at the window and then the process started?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Was that - what was the purpose of that, to hide the identity of the interrogator?

MR BOTHMA: No, I think it was to scare Mr Gordhan.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson, I'll leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	You've said that the hood and the switching off of lights was in your view designed to scare Mr Gordhan.  Did you hear any threats being made to Mr Gordhan?  Threats and or any unkind statements like for instance "you won't see your family again"?

MR BOTHMA: Yes Chairperson, threats were made to him.

MR LAX: Can you confirm he was sworn at?

MR BOTHMA: It's possible, I cannot recall, it's possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions put by the Panel, Mr Nel?

MR NEL: None, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Just a few Chairperson.
	Mr Bothma, the offices you occupied were the offices of the security branch in Bethlehem and I imagine covering parts of the Free State region?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: The head of that office at that time was - I think he was a lieutenant then, Lieutenant Robert-Shaw?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What's that name Mr Gordhan?  Robert?

MR GORDHAN: It's a hyphenated name, Chairperson, Robert-Shaw.  S-H-A-W.
	Is it possible that Mr Robert-Shaw and his staff from Bethlehem might have given a helping hand to find the equipment?

MR BOTHMA: I would speculate if I answered, I don't know.

MR GORDHAN: And Chairperson, just to put some facts so that we clarify this a cession version, the first set of questioning that took place in respect of Mr Botha's role took place in absolutely bright daylight.  It was very brief as I said and that has been confirmed.  As it became dark both Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma walked in and out several times and they will concede that, they put their files away and so on.  As it got darker it was towards twilight, I was then asked to stand my back to the door, my face to the window and the hood was placed over my head, not just the eye, I just want to confirm those facts?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan.  Mr Lalla, do you have any questions?

MR LALLA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Bothma, that concludes your evidence.  You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED