Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson.
 Mr Mbatha, my name is Michael Miller and I appear on behalf of your co-accused in the murder trial Thulani Dlamini.
 Chairperson, again I have the same problem as Mr Semenya rather, if I was to put each and every inconsistency between my client and Mr Mbatha we would be here until tomorrow, so I will do so in the briefest most general terms.
 Mr Mbatha, if I understand your evidence correctly, you are saying in a large part that you were in fact tricked or trapped by Mr Dlamini into doing this deed, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you please repeat your question?

MR MILLER: I'm saying that your evidence is to a large extent that you were tricked or trapped by Mr Dlamini you co-accused into performing this deed - the murder?  Is that your evidence?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR MILLER: So just to sum up - to mention a couple of aspects, Dlamini cheated - for want of a better word, cheated you to go into the surgery to get a ticket knowing full well that he was going to implicate you by getting your fingerprints on the card, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'm not sure whether he knew or he did not know as to whether there were fingerprints to be taken.

MR MILLER: The original plan was - if I understand your evidence correct, that Dlamini was originally supposed to be the person to do the shooting, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that's how I got it.

MR MILLER: But that because your fingerprint was already on the card it was decided on the last minute that you would have to do the shooting, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is correct.

MR MILLER: Well, I must put it to you Mr Mbatha, that you at all times knew exactly what was happening and you were at no stage tricked or trapped by Mr Dlamini into doing anything, what do you say about that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What I've said about Dlamini is true.

MR MILLER: ...[inaudible] was discussed between you and Botha Shwala - you, Dlamini and Botha Shwala well in advance, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I heard at a later stage - we never had a discussion with the two.

MR MILLER: So, you say that's not true?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, it isn't.

MR MILLER: And Mr Dlamini will also tell this Commission that prior to the first visit to Doctor Asvat's surgery you had already together with him visited Mrs Mandela's home and discussed this plan, what do you say about that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't understand you.

MR MILLER: Before, you told us you visited the doctor's surgery twice, the first time when you got the card and the second time when you went to actually do the shooting.  Now what I say is that before you visited Doctor Asvat's surgery the first time, you had already visited Mrs Mandela at her home and discussed the whole matter with her including the payment of the R20.000-00 and that therefore you are misleading - to say the least, this Commission in saying that you went to Doctor Asvat's surgery the first time not knowing what this was all about.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I did not know anything at first, I only knew later.

MR MILLER: When exactly did you get to know what this was all about?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I only knew after the fingerprints because had I known beforehand I probably wouldn't have gone through with it because I had an idea and if I risk going around giving my fingerprints, I would have landed in trouble or I would have known that I would land myself in trouble.

MR MILLER: And in fact, tell us a bit about the payment of the R20.000-00, was it supposed to be paid in full after the killing or did you want some payment up front?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: As I've already explained, when she talked about the money it wasn't a big issue, nobody answered or questioned or demanded any money at that time and there was no deposit or an up front deposit that was demanded from Mrs Mandela, she just pointed it out in passing when we were already on our feet just preparing to go out.

MR MILLER: You see, what I don't understand is something that Mr Semenya referred to in passing but I'd like just to look at it perhaps in just a little bit more detail ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can I remind you - one minute.

MR MILLER: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MILLER: You say that you paid a visit to Doctor Asvat's surgery and you got the card for Dlamini, right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: And after that the surgery was pointed out to you by Cebekhulu, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Repeat your question please?

MR MILLER: After you had paid the first visit - before you went to the surgery the second time, it was pointed out to you by Cebekhulu, is that right?

MR MILLER: Now what I don't understand is, if you had already been to the surgery - you'd already been there, you knew where it was, why was it necessary for Cebekhulu or anybody to point out the surgery to you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I already said that I did not think of it then and as I did not think of it in the past I'm not thinking of it at present - that's the answer I gave and I'm still giving you that answer.

MR MILLER: I will put it to you lastly that this is the one element in your evidence that shows its improbability and it shows that Mr Dlamini's version that you will hear tomorrow, is the truth and that yours is not the truth.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think what you are saying to me by putting Dlamini's version, Dlamini's version is the improbable one - much more than mine is.

MR MILLER: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR KADES: Norman Kades on behalf of the Asvat family.
 Mr Mbatha, just a few quick questions, do I understand your evidence to be that you lied in your statement that you gave to the police - the sworn statement, you thereafter lied in the statement you made to the Magistrate, that you thereafter lied to the TRC investigator but that you are now - you must also have lied to the Advocate that defended you in the Supreme Court but that you are now telling the truth for the first time in the statement that you have made to your attorney Mr Soller, is that what you are saying?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, for me to have come out with the truth, it was the first time when I gave the statement to my attorney or to my advocate.

MR KADES: So despite the fact that your life was in jeopardy you were prepared to lie to your advocate and the Judge?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What do you mean: "my life was in jeopardy"?

MR KADES: If you were convicted the police had told you, you would probably be sentenced to death.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't understand your question.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] question.  In the statement that you made to Mr Soller you say that the driver Mr Shwala drove you to Doctor Asvat's home and waited outside whilst you and Dlamini went inside to what you eventually did.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I said he dropped us off - that is myself and this other guy, he did not drop us in front of the gate of the surgery, he just left us quite a distance from the surgery.

MR KADES: The statement I have drawn by your attorney and what we are told was read over to you and explained to you, was that
"The driver was a Mr Shwala who I have known from Natal, the driver did not go inside Mrs Mandela's house with me and Dlamini and he waited outside"
Is that wrong?  Is that incorrect?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR KADES: Oh, that is true.  So when you came out - having killed Doctor Asvat, Shwala was waiting for you in the car, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, that is not true.  After we had killed Doctor Asvat we knew that we had to escape on our own, Shwala was not waiting for us.

MR KADES: Did you take any money from Doctor Asvat after you had shot him, either from his person or from his desk or from a drawer that you found there?