Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

UNKNOWN: I apologise.  The case docket of sedition was investigated under cover of Gululetu CR 191/7/86 and was intrusted to Detective Warrant Officer Jooste.
 Johnson Ngxobongwana was not the only arrestee charged, others charged were Moster Nongiaza, William Nyiala, Tandile Mafyaya and Zimaza Mininzi.
 I have managed in the archives at Guguletu to trace SAP register 256, this is a register of cases received by a detective unit and that entry 2786 reflects that the case docket was opened and that it was withdrawn on the 13-05-1087.  The actual case docket has been destroyed.
 No reference to a charge of possession of firearm is recorded, I have also discussed Ngxobongwana's arrest with Captain Jooste who concurs with the circumstances of the arrest which took place on the 21-07-1986.
 He however, cannot recall the firearm incident.  I however, have such a recall.  Captain Jooste is also able to recall the arresting Ngxobongwana was released on R50-00 bail after we had opposed the granting of bail during the morning of his first court appearance.
 I remember that following Ngxobongwana's arrest which was regarded as a major breakthrough, that his arrest was reported to the then Divisional Criminal Investigations Officer, Brigadier Van der Westhuizen whose retired from the police force as a Lieutenant General.
 He was enthusiastic about the arrest.  Either the morning of the arrest or the following day, I accompanied Warrant Officer Jooste to Wynberg Magistrate's court where bail was opposed.
 I remember that Ngxobongwana was represented by an Attorney, Mr Brian Latslow.  I clearly remember feeling rather elated with our success.  This feeling of elation was however shortlived because during the early afternoon of the same day that Ngxobongwana appeared in court, I received a telephone call from an agitated Brigadier Van der Westhuizen.
 I obviously no longer can remember the exact conversation between the Brigadier and myself, but the impression was that he had been severely rebuked because of our actions against Mr Ngxobongwana.
 And that he had been instructed by either the State President or Minister to see to it that Ngxobongwana was released on bail.
 I was informed that the authorities were fully conversant with Ngxobongwana's court, that it was not a people's court, but a tribal court.  I was instructed to immediately see to it that Ngxobongwana was released on bail.
 I phoned the State Prosecutor at Wynberg's Magistrate court and related the instructions which I had received from Brigadier Van der Westhuizen to him.
 Later that same afternoon Ngxobongwana was brought before court and released on R50-00 bail.  I was at Guguletu but for a few months between June and August 1986.  During my time at Guguletu I tried to please evenhandedly against all wrongdoers, irrespective of where their political sympathies were.
 It was however difficult to maintain this policy as it was clear that the Security Police and especially a Captain Flip du Toit, carried a torch for vigilante leaders in Crossroads.
 It also appeared that I was not acceptable to my superiors as I was transferred to Sea Point on the 01-09-1986.  Captain Du Toit was to my knowledge always aware of actions which we took.  He was at Guguletu on a daily basis and we were required to furnished him with details of our investigations.
 While I was at the unit, he never supplied us with any information which was of any value.  During the period of time I served at Guguletu, I held the rank of Captain.  I was transferred to Guguletu from the Murder and Robbery Unit following unhappiness already expressed to this Commission, resulting from the Guguletu-7  incident.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Mr Knipe.  Yesterday we heard from a woman Ruth Gibisela who testified and gave testimony about the death of Vioani Geobase and Mr Veneni and in her testimony she mentioned that the death of these two men occurred on the 24th of May 1986.
 Now I just want to establish whether this is an error on your part and whether you want us to correct this error, because you mention here that Mr Geobase and Veneni were brutally murdered, this is on page 5 paragraph 6, that they were murdered July 1986.  
 Now I am not sure whether this is an error on your part?

UNKNOWN: No, it is not necessarily an error, what could have occurred is that the case docket that I am referring to and that evidence in correct because I managed to trace that docket, Guguletu CR 12/7.  It often occurred that case dockets were only opened several days after the murders had occurred.
 So the information of July I am obtaining from the case reference.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I would just like to ask a little bit about Brigadier Van der Westhuizen, what was his exact role in relation to yourself?

UNKNOWN: He was my superior Commanding Officer.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So as an investigator, you reported to him?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now, in this case, the arrest of Ngxobongwana, you mentioned on paragraph 9 that it was regarded as a major breakthrough.  In what way was it a breakthrough for you?

UNKNOWN: Well, I believed that we could have proved the murder of the two young men already referred to.  I believe it also showed willingness of the police to have an evenhanded attitude towards all wrongdoers.
 People were killing each other from both sides.  It was not only fair only to act against people's courts that were being run from people in opposition to certain political parties.
 I regarded it as a breakthrough to show the community that we were prepared to investigate all cases properly.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And to show that in fact police were involved in encouraging the people's court which was to be called a tribal court and not a people's court.

UNKNOWN: Well, when we made the arrests, I was unaware that of my colleagues regarded this as a tribal court.  This only transpired after the arrests, when we were rather condemned for doing this.
 To this day I don't know what the difference is between the one court and the other.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I would just like us to talk  a little bit about the intervention from some superior people, superior members of the police or in fact in your statement you mention ministers as well, what was the extent of this intervention?  You mentioned that Brigadier Van der Westhuizen was quite shaky when he called you and demanded that Ngxobongwana be granted bail.
 Can you tell us a little bit more about this intervention from top members of government?

UNKNOWN: I don't think I can relate further than I have in paragraph 9 of the statement.  I received the phone call, the Brigadier was clearly concerned, agitated and he mentioned that he had been in contact with a person in a very senior position.
 I cannot remember which of the two it was, but it was clearly intimated to me that at very senior level it was felt that we had acted incorrectly and that this man should be released on bail.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just want to read just a little bit of what you say in your statement that the Brigadier was severely rebuked because of our actions taken against Ngxobongwana and that he had been instructed, the Brigadier had been instructed by either the State President or Minister to see to it that Ngxobongwana was released on bail.
 Now this is what you say in your statement.

UNKNOWN: That is what I am saying to you now, yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes, now it is important for us to understand, in your regular investigation of these crimes, how often did this type of intervention lead to people being released from jail or lead to interfere with the justice process?
 How often did this kind of thing happen?

UNKNOWN: This is the first and only time that the incident occurred with me - in 30 years in the Police Force.