Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MR NONDULA: The High Command would be everybody who then was in the position to influence the policies and strategies that must be followed within the military organisation, meaning MK.

MR WAGENER: Would that include your army Commander of the time, Mr Joe Modise?

MR NONDULA: Definitely Sir.

MR WAGENER: Would that include the Commissars, including Mr Steve Tshwete?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: ;   Would that include the Chief of Operations of the time, Lambert Moloi?  Would that include the Chief of Military Intelligence, Ronnie Kasrils?

MR NONDULA: Yes, indeed Sir.

MR WAGENER: Thank you.  Would it also include your National Executive Committee?

MR NONDULA: As I said, any person may have a direct influence in terms of strategies and policies to be followed within the military organisation.

MR WAGENER: ;   Was this landmine campaign a new concept at the time in waging the arms struggle?

MR NONDULA: In this sense, ja, it was because I do not recall any landmine operation prior to that incident.

MR WAGENER: So what you say is an idea of this kind would have been discussed at and approved by, as the ANC says, by their military head quarters, that we now know.

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: And what about the Higher Structures, like the NEC?

MR NONDULA: I may not necessarily, but I can only think that where those authorities have to be informed, they would definitely be informed.

MR WAGENER: I read to you from a document stemming from the ANC setting out the tasks of the military head quarters
"Amongst others military head quarters shall direct the military struggle subject to plans approved by the PMC."
What was the PMC?

MR NONDULA: The Political Military Council.

MR WAGENER: And the NWC, what was that?

MR NONDULA: The National Working Committee.

MR WAGENER: And the NEC?

MR NONDULA: The National Executive Committee.

MR WAGENER: So would you expect a campaign like this, the landmine campaign, to have been approved by these bodies that I've now mentioned?

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now tell me Mr Nondula, how does it come that you sit here today before us without your Commanders?

MR NONDULA: I am the person who asked for amnesty and I am sitting here as that person who wishes to say:  "Yes, it is me who did this and here are the reasons that this happened."

MR WAGENER: What I'm asking is, it seems to me that you're a mere footsoldier, or you were a mere footsoldier in this operation.

MR NONDULA: Yes, I was.

MR WAGENER: Now where are all your Commanders?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he's applied, he ...

MR WAGENER: Isn't the reason ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How can you expect him to answer that?

MR WAGENER: Well I'm going to put it to you, isn't the reason that you were acting outside your instructions when laying this specific landmine, isn't that the obvious reason?  And I'm going to argue that, so I want to put it to you now.

MR NONDULA: I deny what you are saying.  Whatever I did, was under specific instructions and I obeyed those orders as a footsoldier, as you're saying, I obeyed those orders and I carried them out.

MR WAGENER: Did you inform your erstwhile Commanders that you were going to apply for amnesty for this act?

MR NONDULA: I did not.

MR WAGENER: Did you not?

MR NONDULA: No.

MR WAGENER: Not at all?

MR NONDULA: Not at all.

MR WAGENER: Wasn't that the obvious thing to do?

MR NONDULA: What was obvious for me to do was to appear in front of this Committee and to state my case because everybody had to go and testify, who so thought, or yes, that he had something to tell this Committee.

MR WAGENER: May I ask you this, you told us that you were a group of twelve initially.

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Under the leadership of a man called Mancheck.

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Is he the same person that I've seen called as Manchecker, I've seen that name also in some of your ANC literature, is that the same person?

MR NONDULA: I know Mancheck, I may not necessarily be aware as to the correct pronunciation, but I know Mancheck, it could be the one.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  And then you divided into two groups of six?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And the one leader was Agrippa?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And the other one was Chilies, or something like that?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Now what happened to Mancheck?

MR NONDULA: Mancheck passed away.

MR WAGENER: No, but prior to this, during this operation, what happened to Mancheck when the two groups divided?

MR NONDULA: Oh, I see.  No he was left behind either in Bulawayo or Harare, I'm not sure where he was exactly.

MR WAGENER: I see.  He didn't cross the border at all?

MR NONDULA: No, no, he did not.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, can you spare me a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman, those will be my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener.  Mr de Beer, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Nondula?

MR DE BEER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DE BEER: Mr Nondula, you said that when you crossed the border, you saw some patrols.  Were they military patrols, I assume?

MR NONDULA: Yes, they were, Sir.

MR DE BEER: On your patrols, did you see, while you were walking did you see any civilians?

MR NONDULA: Not where I was.

MR DE BEER: No civilians.  Did you see at any stage within eye contact of the main road or the roads that were leading, the side roads, were you at any stage taking into account the traffic that passed on these roads?  Could you have witnessed these vehicles?

MR NONDULA: The vehicle that actually we saw was on the second night, but it was at night and if I'm not mistaken it was in fact a military car because they were patrolling that area since they had observed some footprints, that's the car we saw.

MR DE BEER: Excuse me, did they - who observed any footprints?

MR NONDULA: The soldiers because remember in that area there was already now a follow-up being done by the military personnel in the area and they might have seen our footprints and I can testify truly now and say they did see some footprints and they were making a follow-up on that because I think twice we would see them, either going this direction or we see them going that direction, but we had to hide ourselves in most cases and there were also dogs.  We could see them, the trucks and everything there.

MR DE BEER: Trucks and everything, but you just said that it was only cars, you say only one military car.

MR NONDULA: We did see dogs, I mean dogs, I did see dogs.

MR DE BEER: Is it now dogs, or is it cars as well, cars and dogs?

MR NONDULA: The boots we saw, the car we saw.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about a car, can you describe the vehicle?

MR NONDULA: It was a jeep type but it was at night, I couldn't really say what colour etc.

MR DE BEER: If you say dogs, were these dogs on the vehicle, or ...?

MR NONDULA: No, no, they were on the ground.

MR DE BEER: Were they walking on their own, was it stray dogs, was it police dogs, was it military dogs?

MR NONDULA: They were track dogs.

MR DE BEER: So who was with these dogs?

MR NONDULA: The military personnel that was patrolling the area.

MR DE BEER: So you saw a military car then.

MR NONDULA: Yes.

MR DE BEER: A Jeep-like car?

MR NONDULA: A Jeep-like car, yes.

MR DE BEER: And you saw military personnel with dogs.

MR NONDULA: With dogs, yes.

MR DE BEER: How many personnel?

MR NONDULA: I couldn't figure that out because what happened is we were behind a bush hiding ourselves and they were passing by, so from the distance where we were, we could hear the sound of the boots moving in that direction and what we did was to follow behind them because there was no way they were going to come back and look from where they have already checked, so that's where now we could clearly identify some dog prints, foot prints and the boots etc.