Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

JERRY RICHARDSON: They went with the two youths, without the spades and the shovels.  I followed with the utensils and at the time, Guybon was busy killing the other one.  He was killing him, slaughtering him like a goat.

MR RICHARD: You were there to witness both deaths?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I talked about the slaughtering and he just had to hit him once on the neck and at that stage I left, so I did not really see as to how he slaughtered him.

MR RICHARD: Some time later, the other rejoined you and what did you do next?

JERRY RICHARDSON: As soon as they finished slaughtering him, we got into the car, we went back to Mrs Mandela's place to give her a report back.  We inspected ourselves as to whether we didn't have any blood stains or any tell tales of what we have just done.
 Shakes went into the house and we went back into the back rooms.  Guybon left, he went to his own place.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever go back to the scene, either alone?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, we went back to the scene, I went back to the scene.  Myself with another Commander, Themba.  I really wished I could get more time to talk about this matter.
 Mommy introduced me to this guy whose name was Themba, but he refused to tell me what his surname is and he said he was a member of Umkonto weSizwe, that surprised me very much, because I knew that he was playing football at some stage.
 And he gave me some forms to give them to Themba to fill in.  These forms were called a profile.  You fill this in and hand it over to Mommy.  Mommy told me that the person who was filling the forms, was going to come back and I was going to show him a certain place.
 Now Themba had a problem, because he was eating what I was eating.  He always had something nice with him.   And I asked him where does he get this nice thing that he is eating.

MR RICHARD: What did you and Themba do?

JERRY RICHARDSON: From Mommy's office Mommy used to call me (indistinct) Jerry, and she instructed me to show Themba that place.  And Themba stayed for quite a few minutes and I also stayed in Mommy's office and Themba came back to tell me that he was ready, we could leave.  We took a taxi to Meadowlands.
 I was showing Themba the place.   We went up to the mountain.  When we got to the top of the mountain, I showed him the map.  I showed him some corners and I showed him as to where this people were doing their job.  We even found traces of blood.
 He said I should go break a branch so that he can show me as to what they do as guerillas after having killed a person.   He put some branches.

MR RICHARD: And how many graves did you see, one or more?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Where we saw blood, we tried to wipe it off and we put some branches on top of these blood stains.  And there were about four blocks.

MR RICHARD: And once you had finished tidying up, what did you do next?

JERRY RICHARDSON: We moved away, we proceeded to Diepkloof extension.  When we came back, we came across Mommy, she was at the garage, not inside the house.  Even before I could speak, Mommy held me and said, my boy, my boy.  And I asked myself as to how she knew that we were coming from that place.
 Probably she knew beforehand that we were going there and she knew our mission.  I reported back to her as to what we did when we got there.  It was myself, Mommy and Themba.

MR RICHARD: Right.  Then, in the more recent past, 1995 to the present, have you ever been back to that site, and if so, how often?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: And what happened on each occasion?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Aren't you interested to know as to  who I went back with?  Police came.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That was in 1995.  I want you to listen very carefully to this very important aspect.   I was in Lokop at that time and I was from the cell of the condemned people.  This white person came to me.  This person was some sort of, he was not really white.
 I think he was another nationality that I did not understand.  He was half white, I was called that I had a visitor.  I went on to dress to see who my visitor is.  When I approached him, I told him that he had assaulted me at first.  He said we should let bygones be bygones.
 He told me that they did not have much information about me and the only person who knew much about me, was Pretorius.  This person promised me that they would give me money or offer me a sum of money and they would make me comfortable in prison if only we could tell, or I could tell them as to where I dumped the two youths.  I said I would welcome the idea, because I would love to have the money.
 He asked me as to how we worked with Pretorius.  I told him I was not prepared to divulge any information with regard to Pretorius.  And he said to me Pretorius was an Indian, this Indian went with a white person.  As I was in my cell, writing  some notes, I was thinking of the money that I had been offered.
 And I realised that I had to speak the truth.  This person came back to me together with this half white.  I was called now the second time, I was further promised a sum of money and I said to him, you must pay up front if you want me to talk, but he didn't give me any money.
 He asked me if I wanted to board a plane or a helicopter.  I could see that this Indian man was disturbed.  He went away and came back with a lump sum of money, and showed it to me.  I said just keep the money with you.
 I asked him what he wanted, and he said he wants Lolo Sono as well as Shabalala.  I told him that I was going to show him the place where I assaulted Kuki.  He was very exited about the idea of being shown Kuki's grave.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, slow down.  We are still with Sono and Shabalala.  Carry on.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I am used to playing soccer, I am not an administrator, so I have a problem with the way you want me to conduct myself.  We are talking about Lolo now?

MR RICHARD: Yes, we are talking about Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala.  Kuki Zwane will come next.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Thank you.  You must bear in mind that we are talking about dead people.

MR RICHARD: Proceed.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I promised this man that I would take him to the spot and he said that if I wanted to be taken in a helicopter, he would do that.  If I wanted to use public transport or taxi's, he would make sure that I had a taxi.
 I said I would prefer public transport and there were people who knew me, who I wanted to see.  We went with this Indian man and I could see that there were cars following us.  I had been booked out of the prison for that particular occasion.
 I showed him the place at Muzimuhle, the mine dump and I told him as to how the map worked.  I showed him the spot from one point to the other, and he made some measurements.  He took photo's of me.  He took a photo of me whilst I was doing the pointing out.  I was wearing a blue top.  I don't remember the trousers that I was wearing.
 We reached an agreement with him that I want to go and see my children.  He agreed to take me there.  We went to Muzimuhle and when I got to my house, I met Virginia Erasmus Richardson.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  On a later occasion this year, you went there again.  This time with a number of other people, is that not correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Can you tell us about it?  Did you take them to the same place?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR RICHARD: And you do know that bodies were not found as a result of either pointing out?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I still don't believe that, even today.

MR RICHARD: Now, is there a possibility that the two bodies of the two young men, young boys, could be found there, but in a slightly different place?