Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What happened is that I just couldn't see him anymore.  I didn't know where he went.

MR PRIOR: Was he also staying at Jozanna's Hoek?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He used to stay with us.

MR PRIOR: And Max, was he part of the unit at the time of this ambush, the one that we're dealing with now?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, he wasn't part of our unit.  After I am attacking Lady Grey I didn't see him again.

MR PRIOR: And you already told us Jabo was part of your unit at this time.  He was also known as Dr Zamzam.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There were many of us then together, but when we went out to attack, he only became a member of our unit in two attacks.  It was an attack on a garage and the attack at Sterkspruit Hotel.

MR PRIOR: What was this now? ...(inaudible) application?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it appears in my application.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the two attacks you say?  Sterkspruit Hotel and what was the other one?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Sterkspruit Garage.

MR PRIOR: Sterkspruit Garage listed at page 12 of bundle "B".  Sorry, the persons involved were yourself, it looks like Annus, and Kenny. Oh, and Kenny.  You only list two people.

CHAIRPERSON: At the Sterkspruit Hotel?

MR PRIOR: Garage.  He says, yes, he was, he lists them as Sterkspruit Hotel, but over the page at page 12 of bundle "B", he lists the Sterkspruit Garage attack where he only says himself and Kenny were involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Annus, isn't, or is it and?

MR PRIOR: Yes I thought it was Annus, but Mr Lax corrected me, it is "and", because there is no comma.  Do you see that in your application?  Please look at page 12 of bundle "B".   It's something that you recorded there.  Is that right, do you only list yourself and Kenny as being part of the Sterkspruit Garage operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It was me and Jabo, not Kenny.

MR PRIOR: I'm going to go onto something else, Mr Chairman, unless the Committee want to ask any questions around this.  Just, I just want to point out to you that now this is a fourth incident during 1992 that Jabo was involved, and yet you couldn't remember the person when we first started asking you about him.  I just want some clarity about some names that appear in your statement to the Magistrate, that is the confession which appeared page 37 of bundle "B".  Those names are Sipho, was he part of the unit at the time of the Herschel Lady Grey ambush?  The names are Sipho, Kenny, well we know Kenny is, sorry let's deal with that seriatim.  Sipho?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, he wasn't part of the unit.

MR PRIOR: Kenny, it's spelled there KHENE, it may be a different spelling.  Who is that person?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is Phila Dolo.

MR PRIOR: Medibula?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: That is another Comrade with whom I was in training.

MR PRIOR: Did he have any other names, Medibula?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He used the name Kenny.

MR PRIOR: And we've got Roger, we know about, and the other name is Lepha.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He was one of the Comrades I was in training with.

MR PRIOR: Was he part of your unit at the time of this attack that we're dealing with?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No he wasn't part of our unit.

MR LAX: What, when we use the word unit, and Mr Prior, maybe you can help us here, there are different ways of understanding what that means, and maybe that's why you keep saying "no".

MR PRIOR: The unit I am referring to is the unit that went out on these operations.

CHAIRPERSON: But haven't we been told, Mr Prior, that a unit was picked for an operation only.  It was two or three men who went and did it.  And then is disbanded.  They used unit in the sense of that particular operation.  But also before you go on, the name Kenny does not appear there as a separate name.  There is no comma after Kenny, it is Kenny Medibula comma.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I notice that now.  I am grateful to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because he goes on a little later where he refers to "Phila moes ons oplaai".

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I'd like to just move back to the day of the incident.  I just need some clarity on the following aspect.  You said when the, after the initial shooting, that is after your signal that you gave, there was a vehicle that came from Herschel.  We know now that the vehicle that was driven by Mr Tsemane.   You said the people, the white people that got out of the first bakkie all got into that vehicle.  Is that correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: How many white people did you see getting into that vehicle?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I am not sure how many got into the car as I have already explained that I was running at that time, trying to get route to where my Comrades where.  I just didn't realise how many whites got into that car.

MR PRIOR: Well did you that the female, the white female, got into the vehicle?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes I realised that the white female got into that car.

MR PRIOR: This way, when the, Mr Tsemane drove away with that vehicle, there were no other people running away on the road at that stage?  I just want to get some clarity on that, from your perspective.  In other words all the occupants of the vehicle that had been attacked had climbed in, or got in onto Mr Tsemane's vehicle.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I am not sure whether they all got in that car, but after that car made a U-turn there was no-one running, that is running or getting out of the car that was attacked initially.

ADV SANDI: Excuse me, Mr Prior.  Can I just ask one question for clarity.  You said you, after you gave the sign then you started running towards the, where the other Comrades were.  Now when this car driven by Tsemane stopped, how far were you from that car?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I was something like 100m away from that car.

ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo yesterday said where you were standing giving the sign, it was almost 100m.  In other words, you had just started running from the place where you were standing to give the sign, the signal?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I can say is that they were also running forward, that is why I can't say the metres were becoming less between me and them.  They were still running, trying to chase those people.  That's why I say I don't think that the metres had lessened by then. I'm not saying I was exactly 100m away from them, it's just an estimation.

ADV SANDI: Away from you or towards your direction?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: They were running away from me.

ADV SANDI: How many people did you see getting into the car which had stopped?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: As I have said I couldn't see exactly how many people got into the car.  What I realised is that a female got into that car.  I couldn't see whether the others were in the car, but by that time there was no-one along the road.  There was not white person along the road.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Yes, the purpose of my question is the following, that if those people including the man who was later shot by Scorpion had been in that vehicle, that, we know that vehicle had left the road, Tsemane's vehicle.  And my confusion is this, how did Mr Schroeder who we know was later shot, how did he get onto the road is he had boarded Mr Tsemane's vehicle?  That was my, Mr Chairman, that was my understanding of Mr Dolo's evidence that the occupants hiked a taxi.  I think they, at page 3 of the bundle "B" in his affidavit he said "The occupants came out of the car and ran away.  They hiked a taxi and I shot the taxi and it fell off the bridge."   So my question is, if those people got into Mr Tsemane's vehicle that left the road, how did that person come back onto the road if he was in fact in Tsemane's vehicle?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I am explaining is that I couldn't see how many people got into the car.  I don't know when did that person escape.