Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Thanks, Mr Chairperson, it was China.  Mandla Maluleka has his own group too.  China, Mandla Maluleka, December and myself we all ... (intervention)

UNKNOWN: What about Dingaan Maluleka?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Dingaan Maluleka was in the fifth group which was abandoned.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Can you tell us what you did, what these five groups did that night?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I knew the houses and also the groups knew the houses.  Mkhonza said if there are those who don't want the houses, in each group there should be someone from Davel who knows the houses, but in my group I was the one who knows the houses and each group had to burn two houses.  The houses that were burnt were about eight (8) to nine (9).  I said I've got ten (10) minutes.  In ten (10) minutes time they should be at Mkhonza's place.  Mine left to the next door.  As I'm sitting here, Mkhonza was about at the end part of the hall or the wall of the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: That's about twenty (20) paces.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would say so.  And he was walking around in that area.  The Black Cats men, since this thing was really in their blood, they didn't want to leave.  I told them they should guard the house at Mkhonza's place and guard, and they shouldn't leave or shoot because if you start shooting - if you shoot it means you'll be giving a signal that we should come back to see that will be happening at the house.  Therefore we tried the first house to enter.  So they were prepared.  It looks like that they locked all the doors with pipes or anything.  Like the light on lights and they switched them off.  And late Mandla kicked the kitchen door and he stand aside and I entered.  I'm sorry, before I enter Mandla kicked it, entered and stand in front of the door and fired two shots on air.  I entered and then I pointed the boys and asked them to come in.  They get into the house and went into the rooms and they found one mother in the house.  They hacked and stabbed until she died.  And then a young boy came out running trying to get out through us.  I followed him and the Black Cats followed him, and they found him or catch up with him at the shop and I don't know what they did, I don't know whether they killed him or not, but they did something to him.

MR WILLS: Yes, before we finish that.  You've stated in paragraph seventy two (72) of your affidavit that
"A teenage boy came running out and ran into the toilets.  I followed him and I shot him."
Do you still stand by that evidence?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I think it is a mistake.  This is an incident which took place another place, not in this house.  This young boy I'm talking about, he came out of the house, he runned, and the Black Cats followed him and hacked him.  He was not shot at the shop.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Yes, and I think, Mr Chairperson, and members of the Committee, we have established that the person who died in this attack was a person, we just established this yesterday, was the name of Matthew Mthweni, and he in fact died of stab wounds and wasn't in fact shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the person referred to as having run to the shop?

MR WILLS: Run to the toilet out of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: But we haven't heard that one yet, because he's only talked about a boy who ran out of the house and was chased by the Black Cats to a shop.  Was it a toilet at the shop?  And then he said it was a different attack, this one in the toilet.  So perhaps we can just clear that up.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Chairperson, at this particular house the boy didn't run to a toilet, he ran out of the house to the shops.  That's where the Black Cats caught up with him and hacked him and stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an incident at all where a boy ran into a toilet?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: You mean referring the past incident?

CHAIRPERSON: This incident referred to in paragraph seventy two (72), did it happen?  In paragraph seventy two (72) you say
"A teenage boy came running out and ran into the outside toilet.  I followed him and shot at him."
Did that ever happen anywhere, at any time?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, but not in Ermelo.  It's not an Ermelo incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Where about did this incident take place with the boy running into the toilet?  It comes under the heading as being in Davula.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I've stated that it is a mistake that he ran to the toilet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Okay.  You say you were involved in these attacks, burning houses with these groups.  Can you tell us what happened when you came back?  Where did you go when you had finished the attacks?  .....(tape ends)

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: ... time is over, we should take the boys out.  I tried to get them out, but they all ran around and Mkhonza himself has to start yelling at them and said they should get out, talking to them in a serious language.  I will say after the attacks we'll run back to Mkhonza's place and even in this particular time we ran back to Mkhonza's place, and after that the police car, known as the Casper came.  It stopped at the gate and there was Felani.  He talked to Mkhonza and asked whether all the boys are all back.  Mkhonza asked me whether the boys are all back and I confirmed that they were all back.  And then there were policemen in the car, about nine (9) of them, they were all white and Felani was the only black official.  As the houses were burning and people crying we were in this Casper and we were travelling around.  The Casper didn't stop in any particular scene, it just passed around the area.  And we went to a place at the soccer field.  There was a lady who was crawling on her knees and she was crying, and they switched on the Casper's bright lights and when we look at the ground we saw a boy trying to jump a fence.  We ask what was happening to the child and "what was happening to you", and she said someone was trying to rape her.  "As we were doing that, you came running trying to jump the fence or a concrete wall".  I took out my firearm, aimed at him, tried to shoot at him and he fell on the other side of the fence.  I don't know whether he died or not.  And that's where it ends.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, the details you've described are described in the statement which we've handed in, in the last exhibit, the Afrikaans statement.  Now, they vary quite considerably from the details you have provided in your amnesty application.  Can you tell us why that is or how that came about?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would like to ask the Committee, also the legal representatives who are present here to have a look at the bundle of statements which I made.  Statements which I made after police came several times, different policemen came to me several times.  Police will come to me and ask me, "Do you remember what happened in this and this", and I gave them the information.  I'm not saying what I've written in the statement is not true, but it's not complete as I've completed - as the one that I compiled later while I was talking to these policemen then I could be able to list all the incidents correctly.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, I want to refer to paragraph seventy six (76) on page one hundred and sixty one (161).  You talk about having a shootout with ANC members.  Can you refer to that?  Mr Hlongwane, can you refer to paragraph seventy six (76) on page one hundred and sixty one (161) of your affidavit?