Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, that was the reason for restricting the information to two people, Walus and myself.

UNKNOWN: Yes and what was Mr Walus' financial position at that time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have no idea, Mr Chairman.  I never discussed it with him.

UNKNOWN: Was he going to be compensated in any way for his successful act?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: By me, Mr Chairman?  I had nothing to compensate him with.  Everyone knows my financial position quite well.

UNKNOWN: But people who stole money for the cause might have made some available?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But, Mr Chairman, that has not been proved and there is no connection, whatsoever, been proved between this money and myself.

UNKNOWN: Well, do not let us anticipate the proof at this stage.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is outrageous.

UNKNOWN: Was it a coincidence, was it if, in fact, Mr Clarke was in some way involved in this and he was the person who had something to do with this large sum of stolen money, is it a mere coincidence that he was a very good friend of yours and your wife's and regularly came to your house, apparently, by appointment noted in your wife's diary?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Mr Clarke knew nothing about what was planned for Mr Hani.

UNKNOWN: Was he a member of the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not as far as I know, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Was he a member of any political organisation?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have, I do not know, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Did he express any political views to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Quite openly, supportive of the Conservative Party, yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Supportive of the and one of the right wing people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Obviously.

UNKNOWN: Was, when you say that you and Walus discussed the gravity of the situation, was he one of the right wing people with whom you discussed the gravity of the situation?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, he was not.

UNKNOWN: Why not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because, Mr Chairman, he just was not there.  When Mr Walus used to come and visit me he use to specifically come and visit me to have a discussion with me, not with other people.

UNKNOWN: How did you know that, how did he exhibit his support for the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Who, Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: Mr Clarke.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Oh, Mr Clarke expressed the same sentiments as I did when we had discussions.

UNKNOWN: Well, please tell us what he said that it was, that he said in support of the Conservative Party.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I cannot recall specific statements.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, you know, in the course of numerous conversations one gathers ...

UNKNOWN: Ones feelings.

CHAIRPERSON: ... ones sympathy for a cause.  That may be so.

UNKNOWN: I will accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it will be unrealistic to ask him to explain all that now, Mr Bizos.

UNKNOWN: I will accept that, Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Now, he says,
"Commandant Roodt and I, ourselves only heard of the murder on the evening of the 10th of April 1992.  There was no collaboration among the AWB and/or the Volksvront to murder Mr Chris Hani.  Our suspicion was that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, himself, orchestrated the attack on Mr Hani himself.".
Now, did you orchestrate the murder of Mr Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I do not know what date Mr Visser submitted his application, but I assume it was some time after the whole episode had been very well aired in the media and it had become patently clear that I was involved with the Hani assassination ...

UNKNOWN: Yes, I am actually ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and, also, I, it may even be that he submitted this after I was found guilty ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and that would be a perfectly ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... reasonable state where anyone had that knowledge.

UNKNOWN: No, I was just wondering whether you could throw any light why he uses the word "orchestrate" which, you know, in order to orchestrate something you need a few number, quite a number of people to orchestrate?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he says here,
"Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, himself, had orchestrated the attack on Mr Hani.".
Yes, he did not talk about a number of people orchestrating.

UNKNOWN: No.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think about me ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... or is that not your question?  Am I misunderstanding ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... the question?

UNKNOWN: Yes, perhaps, I did not make it very clear.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Please.

UNKNOWN: The person who orchestrates needs an orchestra.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I do not know why Mr Visser made this statement, because Mr Visser had no knowledge whatsoever of anything ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... regarding me or my affairs, except maybe that I was an active representative of the Conservative Party and the right.

UNKNOWN: Now, I want to show you the original letter, "Geagte Kolonel"?  Is this it?

JUDGE WILSON: Before you go on, should we call this R9?  I do not think you have given it a number.

UNKNOWN: Incidentally, Mr Chairman, we have asked the Commission to make available the full application for amnesty of Mr Visser and, apparently, steps are being taken to get the permission of such persons, as may be concerned, for us to get it so that we can get the full background of this matter.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  I want to show you the original letter.  Perhaps members of the Committee should have a look at it and also to have a look on the, at the endorsement at the back of it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

UNKNOWN: I would like the witness to see it after the Committee members have seen it.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am aware of the details contained on the reverse of the letter.

UNKNOWN: Would you read out the handwriting at the back of that letter please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chair, it reads as follows
"This letter was ...",

UNKNOWN: Gewone.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Something "pos".

UNKNOWN: Ordinary post.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Oh, normale, dankie mnr die Voorsitter, deur normale, it is very badly written, it is the normal post,
"... was received by normal post on 93/05/21".
There is a signature which confirms, which has been confirmed as the signature of a certain UW or UDC somebody.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  He is a Colonel.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He is a Colonel, Mr Chairman.  A full Colonel, yes.

UNKNOWN: He is the Colonel that came and arrested you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: He is the head of the Murder and Robbery Squad that investigated your case?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And you wrote that letter and posted it to Colonel Human?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to correct one thing which may be misinterpreted here.  Mr Bizos has said that he was head of the investigation which investigated the murder case.  He was in his capacity as head of the Murder and Robbery Squad, but the investigation under Section 29 was carried out totally by members of the security branch.  There were never any members of the East Rand Murder and Robbery Squad involved in the investigation.

UNKNOWN: He was the head of the Murder and Robbery Squad ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

UNKNOWN: ... that investigated whether you and your wife and Mr Walus were guilty of murder.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And out of whose care I was taken, Mr Chairman, when I was placed under Section 29 control.

UNKNOWN: Now, it was to him that you wrote the letter and not to the uniformed branch.