Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, a couple is twice.

MR LAX: Twice?  Only twice?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Only twice, is my recollection of poking my head around the corner.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Sir, you told this Commission that you heard blows coming from inside the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: I take it then that within five minutes of her arrival, Ms Khubeka was being beaten?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: What time did you go to sleep Capt Baker, Mr Baker?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot recall that.

MR SAMUEL: Was it after all the other members had left Winkelspruit base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I assume so.

MR SAMUEL: Did you notice when the last member left the base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember that.

MR SAMUEL: Who was the last person you saw leaving the base sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am afraid I cannot answer that, I didn't know the order of the people leaving the base,  who left when and how and what.

MR SAMUEL: I am enquiring as to who you saw last leave the base.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said, I didn't see people driving out.

MR SAMUEL: So basically you do not know whether people were at the base or they had all left by that stage, when you went to sleep?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Coetzer came to me and said that he was taking the people back to C.R. Swart and I heard vehicles leaving and that was obviously my people, but the other people that left, I am not sure who left when.

MR SAMUEL: Your primary purpose to go to this base was to enquire as to what your people were doing, and how their operations were going, am I right?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: In this regard, you spoke to Mr Taylor?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Did Mr Taylor tell you how it came about that Ms Khubeka was at the base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, at the time that I spoke to Mr Taylor, he was still expecting terrorists to arrive at the base.

MR SAMUEL: I see, so when Mr Botha arrived with a terrorist, you were relieved, am I right?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Who was relieved Mr Chairman?

MR SAMUEL: You, because your wait was over now, you were waiting for terrorists to arrive, am I right, or your members, the askaris, to arrive, am I right?  Were you not relieved sir, that the wait was over?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I cannot recall having such an emotion, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Did you approach the kombi when Mr Baker, Mr Botha arrived with the others?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: And how long after the vehicle, the kombi arrived with Mr Botha, did you speak to Mr Botha, if you had spoken to him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I spoke to him when he was already in the room, it was a couple of minutes, I cannot say how many seconds, minutes, but it wasn't a long period.

MR SAMUEL: What was the conversation about?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I asked him if it is positive if he had terrorists and that is when he informed me that it wasn't a terrorist, it was the contact woman.

MR SAMUEL: Did he tell you that your askari had made a mistake, sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, they hadn't arrested, I think who they were waiting for, so they had obviously just got second best.

MR SAMUEL: Did he tell you that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Did he inform you that he had sent your askari, members of your Unit out to arrest certain persons and they had brought an informer, another person in?

CHAIRPERSON: Contact person I think, yes.

MR SAMUEL: The contact person whom they did not expect to see, sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, my people were not sent to arrest anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Samuel is putting to you is that the intention was for MK cadres to be arrested, particularly the leader of a unit, and the askaris were sent in for that purpose, that is why they had arranged a rendezvous point at Battery Beach, etc, hoping to catch at least the leader of the Unit and in stead of that, your member or members, bring in the contact person which we all know, resulted in the termination of the particular operation?   What Mr Samuel wants to know is, did Botha tell you about that or talk to you about that happening, that event happening which led to the termination of the operation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, we did discuss it after the event, we did discuss it.  We had to discuss the viability of the operation continuing or not, which is when we decided that it should be terminated.

CHAIRPERSON: That discussion, did it take place that night or the next day or the day after that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As far as I can remember, that night and we discussed it again the next day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  Did Mr Botha tell you that the askaris had made a blunder in bringing in the contact woman?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I assume so because it was a blunder.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember, you are just assuming now?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, it is an assumption, I cannot remember the details of all discussions we had.

MR SAMUEL: Were you present when the body was removed from the room, sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I did not see the body being removed and I did not see who removed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel, did you see the body at all?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before it was removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Did you see the vehicle that was used to remove the body?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: So sir, I put it to you you cannot truthfully tell this Commission that Jimmy Mbane was not in the verandah at the time when the body was being removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure where he was at that stage.

MR SAMUEL: So it is possible that he was in the vicinity, sir at the time when the body was being removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is a possibility, I do not know where he was.

MR SAMUEL: So your earlier speculation that all your members had left with Mr Coetzer, is mere speculation, am I right?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Coetzer did take the members, Mr Coetzer was taking the members back to C.R. Swart, he wouldn't have left anybody behind.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, since this issue has been pushed, may I refer you to Mr Coetzer, sorry Mr van der Westhuizen's statement, Exhibit F, page 3, paragraph 9.  It says here on the fourth line
"... indeed, we would sleep there some evenings."

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, it looked as if people had been sleeping at the base.

MR SAMUEL: And he says, he goes on further and says
"... some of the askaris also stayed there during their visit upon this occasion."
	He is referring to the time on this occasion, am I right, I am not too good with Afrikaans, but that is the way I understand it?  Is he telling a lie?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on the other days that the operation was running, if people had stayed there or not.  All I can comment on is the time that I was there, which was that evening, and that evening Mr Coetzer said he was taking them back to C.R. Swart.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after you arrived back with the food?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't see them go out, you don't know whether he took them all or not?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, he came and discussed it with me and I told him that it would be better to take them back to C.R. Swart after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Do you know whether Mr Radebe had already left the base with Mr Coetzer?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Coetzer would have had a vehicle and Mr Radebe would have had a vehicle, they would have both left in their vehicles.