Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: How many times did you shoot him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Once.

MR VISSER: And how many times did you fire the gun?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I said I shot once.

MR VISSER: All right.  I would like to refer you to Annexure, page 172, no, page 112.  I am sorry.  In the documentation, Mr Motsamai, that we, if you are finished singing, Mr Motsamai, can we continue?  At page 112, we were given by the Committee or by the TRC, a statement by one Motsi Moses Tito.  Do you know him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: These statements were given to you by the Committee.  I do not know this person.

MR VISSER: Yes, that would be right, because he says, well, in any event, it does not matter.  He says this, he says that it was at night and he was playing outside his house, which was next to the house of George Musi.  Can you deny that?  You cannot deny that, can you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I cannot.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is how it is stated.

MR VISSER: And he says, in this statement, that while he was playing with his top he heard people in the house of George Musi arguing.  Do you think that he is right when he says that, if he is referring to the time when you were there, do you think that he is correct in his evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: If he says arguing, he is correct.  Yes, we were arguing.  That is the time whilst Mamome was grabbing, grabbed this old man.

MR VISSER: Do you know what arguing means, Mr Motsamai?  The meaning of arguing, I put it to you, is that people, when people disagree with each other loudly.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Why if I speak in Sesotho to argue, it can mean a lot of things.  It may be an altercation or rather in words.

MR VISSER: Yes, but what it will not mean is a shout for help, I put it to you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you repeat your question, Sir?
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, if he is going to go so finely into the matter, then he is also not entirely correct, that is Mr Visser, because the Afrikaans used there is that,
"ek het gestry ..."
It says that,
"I recognised the deceased's voice as well as the person who was arguing with him.  The people were arguing."
There is no, you know, it is not being said that they actually argued.  One could be referring to a quarrel, one could be referring to a physical, what would I call it, a physical encounter between two people.  It is not entirely clear that what we are being referred to is, in fact, an argument.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the witness had made that point, that in Sotho it covers a wide spectrum of things, but the point Mr Visser is making is this is not a scream for help.  There is a difference between two people arguing violently or otherwise and somebody screaming for help.

ADV MEMANI: What I am saying, Mr Chairman, is that the Afrikaans equivalent which is used there is not precise in nature and Mr Visser cannot put it as if a precise word was used.  The person simply says I heard people "stry" and it is not clear what "stry" here was.

CHAIRPERSON: The point he is making is he does not say I heard him screaming, shouting for help.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Memani is referring to the point earlier and, Mr Visser, I think Mr Memani is right.

MR VISSER: Well, he is entirely incorrect, Mr ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: "Stryery" does not necessarily mean shouting, it means struggle, is it not?

MR VISSER: Not at all, that is the last thing it means.  There is no Afrikaans dictionary that will give you that explanation for "stry".  "Stry" is not a physical contest of any nature, it is a verbal exchange of words.  That is "stry".  With all due respect, Mr Chairman, that is very, very much not the position.  My learned friend is entirely incorrect and he can go and check it, he can go and check it.

ADV MEMANI: I am sure we will, thank you, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: But the point is simply this, if the man says he heard an argument, violent or otherwise, it is not the same as saying that he was crying out for help.  Do you agree with me?  Because that is your evidence, you see.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This man was crying for help.  He was screaming and a person outside would hear.

MR VISSER: And this person, Tito, says that he heard two shots, like a firearm, but you have already told us that you only fired one shot.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so, I shot only once.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now, you see, why I am putting that to you is that, at least, we know that Tito can count up to two, because that is very relevant to the next sentence which he says in his statement.  He says after that he saw one person running away from the house.  One person.  He saw somebody.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is how he saw, because when we left that place I was the first one to jump the fence and Mamome came following me.  We were running.  It might happen that he saw only person.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, I put it to you, Mr Motsamai, if you place yourself on the scene that evening when Mr Musi was murdered, as we know he was, then you were there alone and you were arguing with him, in all probability, and you shot him in an altercation which you had with him.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We were the two of us there, I was not alone.

MR VISSER: Yes, and I am putting it to you that you never received any instructions from anybody to go and kill Mr Musi or China or anyone else and Mr Mamome never accompanied you as you allege that he did.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is what I knew and we received the instructions from the very people.  They came from them.  I knew they would dispute what I am saying here.  I got instructions from them and I was accompanied by Mamome to that place.

MR VISSER: Yes, I can put to you very shortly, very briefly, that Ramara, the Investigating Officer, made certain enquiries and he refers to an affidavit by Mr Mabelo, whom you know very well, at page 116, Mr Chairman, and that statement of Mabelo he says that George Musi was his uncle, at page 116.  He lived alone and he was not a person who use to go out.
"He did not go out".
He was an elderly person and he did not go out at night and I am suggesting to you this is not the type of life one would expect from a politically active, a political activist, but that is a matter for argument, Mr Chairman, and, perhaps, now is a convenient time to take a short adjournment.  
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: I think, Mr Chairman, a person during cross-examination puts what he is going to argue, a witness is entitled to react if he can react.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.  He must not just put a point and then run away from it.  That is not being wise.

ADV DE JAGER: But you can answer him, Mr Motsamai.  Answer him.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I want to explain to him, people who are contacts, whether you laugh or not, I worked there and your laughing might not spite me.  People who are contacts work with people who have to be taken outside.  They work with people who are outside, because they work underground.  Not everybody would know about them.  He was in the organisation.  Their operations were done underground.  That is how people managed to arrange for others to skip the country.  That is how it was done.  I want to emphasise a fact that China stayed there with the old man even though he did not stay there at all times.  He stayed there, that is the information I know.  And the old man was involved in politics and his file is there.  They know where they took his file.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment now.
HEARING ADJOURNS

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.