Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Was it accepted at the Supreme Court?  You see you are confusing me, we were talking about the TRC, that the application made by Mr Bandazayo, whether it was not the one that led to me being here.  Now, the question you are asking is do I agree as to whether the confession statement I made, that was attached to the application, was admitted in the Supreme Court.
	I am confused sir, what you are talking about now.

MR LAX: Maybe I can help you.  Just listen carefully.  It is a very simple matter and we end up wasting a huge amount of time on it.
	Mr Ntonga is telling you what annexures were attached to your application, the typed one.  He is explaining that one of the annexures was your confession.  He is explaining that that was the confession that was used in the East London trial, and it was admitted as evidence before the Court.
	That is what he is trying to explain to you.  Let's try and not go on these long rambling answers, and traverses, we don't have much time.  Let's try and focus what we are doing here please.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, what I do not understand is that it was attached and then be admitted at the Supreme Court.  I do not understand this Supreme Court, what did it go and - why did it go to the Supreme Court, because, can you explain Mr Ntonga?

MR NTONGA: I will leave that point.

MR LAX: Let's just clear this up, because it might come back later.  You went on trial in the Supreme Court, do you remember that, in East London before Judge Liebenberg?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: Do you  remember that the Police wanted to use that confession against you?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I remember that the Police used the confession statement against me.

MR LAX: And your Advocates tried to prevent that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: My Attorney tried to prevent them, sir.

MR LAX: The Court accepted that it was fair to use that in evidence against you?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR LAX: That is the trial that we are talking about, that is the Supreme Court we are talking about.  It is very simple.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Let me go to my final questions.  I would like to suggest to you, is it not the correct thing that you were told to go home, the struggle is over, but from the Transkei you went on to do your own things without any further instructions?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, that is not true sir, that we were told that we must go home, and I said when I came to East London, I proceeded with other operations, that is not true sir.

MR NTONGA: Another last proposition, is it also possible that these orders were given before the suspension of the armed struggle, 16 January 1994 but it was carried out afterwards because of a breakdown of communication between the High Command and the soldier on the ground?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, that could have happened, but I, myself, the time I got orders that we must come and undertake the operations here at East London, it was after the announcement of the suspension of the armed struggle, at the time we were given those instructions by Jimmy Jones.

MR NTONGA: So the instructions, you say, were given directly by Jimmy Jones, not by your Unit Commander, TNT, saying that he received them from Jimmy Jones?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, I got instructions from Jimmy Jones.  TNT could not give me instructions to proceed to those operations, because you know, he was the Unit Commander.

MR LAX: Sorry, why couldn't your Unit Commander give you instructions to proceed anywhere, he was your Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The Unit Commander sir, has no duty to give instructions to us.  For that matter, in the Army the Unit Commander is an equal soldier to me, instead what happens, he is the one who is chosen to be a Unit Commander of that Unit, it is not that he is superior in terms of rank.

MR LAX: So if the Unit Commander gives you an instruction and you don't like it, you don't obey it, is that what you are saying?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I am not trying to say so, I am trying to explain to you that the Unit Commander cannot give me instructions.

MR LAX: Let's say your Unit Commander gave you an instruction, and you didn't like it, what would you do?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, the Unit Commander cannot give another soldier an instruction.  A Unit Commander cannot give another soldier an instruction, his duty is to command the unit at the point of action, together with us as soldiers.

MR LAX: But you see the order to go back, for you to go back after Bahai, didn't come from Jimmy Jones.  The order came from TNT, why did you obey such an order?   You don't listen to your Unit Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't take orders from the Unit Commander.  The instruction that I must go to Butterworth, was coming from Jimmy Jones, having sent the Unit Commander as the person who had gone to phone.
	You see sir, we may not understand each other, there is a difference between the Commander saying, between Jimmy Jones saying let's go and attack Bahai and that becomes the operation.  As the one who has instructed an operation, we as soldiers go.  Amongst us we have a Unit Commander, the one that will guide us not to instruct us to undertake an operation.
	There is a difference between saying let us do this, that and the other, there is a difference between that and saying man, people, go to that place and do this, that and the other.
	A Unit Commander cannot give instructions and sit down, and wait for us to come back and report back.  That is where the difference lies between a Commander and a Unit Commander.
	The Unit Commander is there, he is also instructed to go with us.  We then go, we do that.  It is he who then advises here that no man, let us not do this, perhaps it is going to be dangerous, what do you say, no, let us leave it.  We will do it later, or no, time has gone against us, we will do it later.
	The authority of the Unit Commander and the Commander are not the same.  Their authority is not the same.

MR LAX: So on what you are telling us now, there was quite a lot of democracy between you and your Unit Commander?  You could debate with him, you could argue with him, you could challenge his instructions?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes sir, whose instructions are you talking about?

MR LAX: I am talking about the Unit Commander, Mr Mbambo.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Listen sir, there is democracy in the Army as I have said but it is not the same with that operative in the PAC, the democracy of the soldiers.  It is not the same as in the PAC.  You see the job of the Unit Commander, (indistinct) not to tell us to do things and he then stands back and looks on.  He advises that gents, I see it this way and would then, then we would discuss it or perhaps contradict him, because we are equal in rank, and do as per agreement if we then reach such an agreement.
	We will only follow him if we think he is right.  That does not mean that I may have no right to advise that perhaps we can leave this, and not do it here because of this or that reason.

MR LAX: Well you were not present when some instructions were given, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The incidents when I was not there when instructions were given, is the case of Bahai.  In all others, I was present.

MR LAX: So, that man had no authority over you if you weren't present and he gave you an instruction to go with him because you only took your authority from the higher Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: He had authority to tell me what he has been told I must do, if it comes from the Commander who is beyond him in terms of rank.
	What I know is that he cannot tell me Commander has said well knowing fully that he is telling lies, because the Commander will get to know about it.

MR LAX: So how was it then that when Kid shot up the kombi at Nahoon, TNT your Unit Commander was able to reprimand him for that if he didn't have that kind of authority?