Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, forgetting for one moment about what your co-applicants said at the trial, namely that they denied that they were guilty, was there evidence that some of the items that had been stolen from Boipatong were you know, were burnt?  In court?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I heard that evidence in court.

MR BERGER: Didn't you just tell the Committee that the first time you heard evidence about goods being burnt was during these hearings?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I said so.  The witnesses in court, that's what they said but here, even themselves, they made such utterances.

MR BERGER: Mr Ntuli was on duty at the gate to the Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial page 3624 you were asked
"There is also at the East Gate which runs next to the hostel, there is also"...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the first point?

MR BERGER: Okay.  I summarise it.
"There is also at the East Gate a 24 hour presence"
in other words, the East Gate which is different from the main gate to the Kwamadala Hostel and it is different from the Iscor patrols, the East Gate itself was manned on a 24 hour basis and your answer"
"That is so."

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is still true.

MR BERGER: And how far was that post from the main gate of Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I think it was a full kilometre from East Gate to main gate of Kwamadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Are you certain about that because I've been to the East Gate and it certainly does not look like a kilometre from the main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am certain about that because there is a curve.  If you are facing the gates standing on the road you can see though you are not yet at the gate, you can see.

MR BERGER: If I show you Exhibit M1 which is a photograph would you be able to point out the main gate to the hostel and East Gate and if you could also point out where you room was?
I'll hand you my copy of M1.  Can you first mark the main gate with an A?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: ...[no translation]

MR BERGER: And then could you mark the East Gate with a B?
And then could you mark your room with a C?  Thank you Mr Mthembu.

MR STRYDOM: The witness hasn't marked the main gate of the hostel, that must be marked with an A.

MR BERGER: Please.

MR STRYDOM: Main gate entrance.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am not very clever as far as this subject is concerned but I have tried my best.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Mthembu.   ...[inaudible] the marks, if I can just make them clearer for everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these marked A,B,C?

MR BERGER: Ja but it's unclear, I'll try to make it clearer.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if you'll just indicate what A stands for, B and C, are they marked?

MR STRYDOM: A was the East Gate.

MR LAX: A was the main gate.

MR BERGER: A was the main gate, B is the East Gate and C is Mr Mthembu's room.  Your attorney has a green highlighter, perhaps that would help?

MR STRYDOM: Just next to - it points to the circle, the circle is actually the point where A should be.

MR BERGER: You say in your statement at 163 that on the night of the incident I was awoken by Paul Schneider from Iscor Security.  Did he come into the hostel to your room to wake you up?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No, someone, a person who was at the gate he was sent down.

MR BERGER: So you then went to the gate and you met Paul Schneider?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And he said to you that there's a group of people on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard who are apparently coming to attack Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now this is sometime between 10.30 and 11 o'clock at night, is that right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I did not check the time but I did not dispute that.

MR BERGER: The reason that I put that time is because I'm looking at an affidavit deposed to by Theunis Steyn employed by Iscor Security, it's Exhibit L13 and L14 and he gives a time of 10.30 when he was in the radio room and then he says that he and Paul Schneider moved to the Kwamadala Hostel where he spoke to a certain Moses, a leader of the Inkatha members and he asked him, this is Mr Steyn, he says
"I asked him if all his members were in the hostel and he assured me that they were."
Now he must be referring to you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes he was referring to me.

MR BERGER: And then he says we then went to the East Gate of Iscor and he puts a time there at 10 minutes past eleven.  So his conversation with you must have been some time between 10.30 and 10 past 11 at night?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I agree because I did speak to him.

MR BERGER: And at that point he says to you there's a large - well this is Schneider - who says to you there's a large group of people who are apparently about to attack Kwamadala Hostel.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And at that time the conversation is going on at the main gate at the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: So that if we know those weren't people coming to attack the hostel, they were attackers returning to the hostel, correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: So if they had returned to the hostel through the main gate, you would have seen them there and then?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: You say I did not go and look, so you didn't go and look to see this group coming into the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: But you were at the gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the people never came in through the main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Some came in through the main gate, that was later.

MR BERGER: How many came through the main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Though I cannot remember the number, I think there are more than ten.  They were coming in groups.  They were with Vincent Khanyile who was one of us or who is one of us.

MR BERGER: And none of them had any evidence of having been on an attack, none of them had weapons or bloodied clothes or loot or did they?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Some had assegais but I cannot remember seeing the firearms but they were wearing coats.

MR BERGER: And the hundreds of other attackers?  They never came through the main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It might happen that they used the main gate but I am not certain whether they all used the main gate because
Paul Schneider had woken me up and he told me to stay there and he said they were going to investigate.

MR LAX: Sorry, did I hear correctly that Paul Schneider told you to stay at the main gate while he went to investigate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Did you ask Vincent Khanyile where he had been?  Why was he coming back to the hostel at such a late time?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I did not ask him.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was only - there was a person who was sitting there but I was only there to tell about what I had seen.

MR BERGER: Didn't you say to Vincent Khanyile "have you heard there's a whole group of people coming to attack us?"

CHAIRPERSON: Did you speak to Vincent?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I did speak to him.

MR BERGER: What did you say to him?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I told him that the security of Iscor said a group of about 200 to 300 people was seen, they seemed like people who were coming to attack the Kwamadala Hostel but they were still going to investigate that.

MR BERGER: And you weren't concerned at all about this group of 200 to 300 people coming to attack Kwamadala Hostel because you went back to sleep?  Is that what happened?