Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: The question I asked is, what is the reason that he was killed?  The explanation I received was that people who attended that meeting took him and then that is why it happened the way it happened.

ADV DE JAGER: Before this meeting and before you saw this body that's been burnt there, were you aware of any other people who had been killed and burnt, necklaced?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I read from the papers.

ADV DE JAGER: So were you so surprised when this happened to him?  Wasn't it often reported in the newspapers, that Councillors and people collaborating with the police were burnt?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I said he was stabbed, I don't know of people who were burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) were you involved in the struggle?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I started in 1986 when I was still at high school.

CHAIRPERSON: How old were you?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I was 25 years old - I was 18 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: You belonged to the youth movement, not so?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And during that time when you were a member of the youth movement, ...(inaudible) very important part in the struggle, not so?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I know.

CHAIRPERSON: And part of the strategy of the youth was to attack collaborators, is that not so?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In particular black people who sold their own souls?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: In particular black people who sold their own souls to apartheid?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I saw it only in the newspapers, I don't remember being part of the youth group which attacked or killed collaborators.

CHAIRPERSON: Which group were you attached to?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I was a member of Thokoza Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the Thokoza Youth League must have been the only league who didn't do that in the whole country, would you agree?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I would not dispute or agree that Thokoza Youth League did not attack people, but what I'm saying is that I was never part to a group of the youth congress which attacked people.

CHAIRPERSON: Not even community councils?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: The attacks which I remember were attacks against the police with petrol bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: You remember the time when our people said we are not going to vote?  Do you remember that time?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I do although I don't remember the year.

CHAIRPERSON: And during that time the youth rose to the occasion, correct?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If I'm not mistaken that was around 1987/1998, October.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I would agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: And despite the objections from many quarters, progressive quarters, certain people in all the locations, Indian, Coloured, African, there were people who were prepared to sell their souls, do you remember?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And those people were dealt with, do you recall, by the youth congress?  Not only the youth congress, but the youth congress was involved in dealing with those people, do you remember?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you recall what happened to those people and their properties?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: What I remember is that they were beaten with batons or sjambucks.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you recall in the Eastern Cape, a gentlemen by the name Kenny Kini, much publicised in the whole country, do you remember?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I don't remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't recall any of the community councillors being killed, even here in Gauteng which was then the Transvaal?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I remember that petrol bombs were thrown to a member of the council in Daveton, that is Tom Boya.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all that happened to him?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I remember only the petrol bombs which were used.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never heard or read in the newspapers that somewhere in the country some of these community councillors who made themselves available for this apartheid system, they were killed, they were burnt, a tyre was put over them with petrol and set alight?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: When I was reading the newspapers or listening to news I learnt that they were using petrol bombs to burn the people to death.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever hear the newspapers coin the phrase "Kangaroo Courts"?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not find out from your comrades what this was all about, what is this Kangaroo Court that the newspapers are referring to?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I learnt that those people who were collaborators with the previous system were brought to that particular institution so that they would be able to be questioned about their activities.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I remember that people were sjambucked in the Kangaroo Court.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear in these courts that the chairman would assume at times the names of appointed judges in the country?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I do know.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would conduct a trial of those people who were brought before the meeting, not so?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct, but I've never witnessed that, I just heard about it.  I never witnessed the process of the Kangaroo Court or I never met somebody who was a member of the Kangaroo Court.

CHAIRPERSON: And you know at times what happened at the end of the day when certain people were found guilty and how they were punished, they were burnt to death, isn't it, because they sold the people, correct?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on this day when you kidnapped Peter, you were aware of such things and that such things had occurred before, not so?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I would not identify that meeting with a Kangaroo Court ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Kangaroo Court.  You said you didn't know what was happening, you unexpectedly came across that gathering.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: As I've explained that people used to meet and discuss how they can avoid the attacks we suffered by members of the Thokoza community which came from many directions.
	I believed that they were discussing those kind of issues.  The explanation I gave about the Kangaroo Court, with a judge and other members of that committee, I don't know that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Patel, have you got any questions left?

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry.  This application, is this your handwriting, on page 268?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I believe so.  Somewhere is not my handwriting but somewhere is my handwriting.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, look at page 268, do you see paragraph (b), was that your handwriting?

MS PATEL: Yes, that is my handwriting.

ADV DE JAGER: And there they ask you
"State whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage."
And you said:
"By Polla Park Kangaroo Court."
You've written that yourself.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now what do you want to convey or wanted to convey at the stage when you wrote that?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I explained earlier that it is because of not understanding the English language, so that I'd be able to identify a particular meeting because a Kangaroo Court in many instances was seen where many people have met or assembled.
	So it is a misuse of that word because I did not understand exactly what it meant.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Thulo, when you refer further - if you look at that very (b), you say
"Refer"
and you have:
"(Peter)"
Wouldn't the conclusion be that when Peter was taken there, that those people who had assembled there formed a Kangaroo Court and hence his execution?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I was trying to explain where I included the name Peter to identify the victim of a person who was taken to that particular meeting.