Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR VISSER: Chairperson, there is a description, if I may be so bold as to interrupt you, at page 25 of bundle 2, by Dr Aiyer, which seems to be a reasonably accurate description if you fall short of descriptive words of the dress.
	It is described as"
"A short-sleeved burgundy dress, showing large white and red flower print along the lower portion and fine pale red and white oblique stripes across the upper front and rear."
And then it says:
"With a thin fabric belt around the waist through loops and showing a label 'Swing Set' and a button with a loop at the rear of the neck."
I don't know whether you found the passage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I have it.  That seems to be a very accurate description, do you people agree?

MR VISSER: It's actually Dr Naidoo.  Did I say, Aiyer, it's Dr Naidoo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: And my learned friend, Mr Wills, has just pointed out that there is a size on that dress.  I haven't checked it myself, but apparently it's 42.

MR WILLS: I didn't say there was a size on the dress, I said that the dress size is a 44.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that from your personal knowledge of dress sizes, or is it indicated on the fabric Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: We hope to lead evidence to that effect, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not on the label or anything like that?

MR WILLS: Not to my knowledge.

MR VISSER: I also understood throughout that there wasn't a size on the dress, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are there any questions anybody would like to put to Mr Radebe relating to the dress?  Mr Hugo?  Let me start off with Mr Hugo.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, Mr Chair, sorry to interrupt.  There is also a polo-neck and underwear.  I don't know whether I should...

MR VISSER: Chairperson, we specifically asked for those items of clothing to be brought down, Chairperson, and we believe it is important for you to see all the clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just don't know if Mr Radebe can say anything about them, but they may as well just be put before us now.
	Ms Thabethe has just laid on the floor a polo-neck long-sleeved shirt, varying shades of brown in colour.  There also seems to be - what would that be called, a slip?  A brown type petticoat slip, same colour as the polo-neck vest or shirt and then there's a bra, also brown in colour and in bad repair.  Thank you, Ms Thabethe.
	Mr Hugo, are there any questions you'd like to put to your client concerning the exhibits?  I think before you start, we'll call the - the dress will be Exhibit 1.  Exhibit 1 will be the dress.  Exhibit 2 will be the polo-neck.  I don't know whether it's a shirt or a vest, polo-neck shirt or undergarment, I'm not sure what exactly it is.  Exhibit 3 will be the, call it a slip, petticoat, and Exhibit 4 will be the bra.
	Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two questions.
	Mr Radebe, this incident happened thirteen years ago, can you remember what the dresses or dress looked like that Ms Kubheka was wearing when you saw her for the first time?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I would not.

MR HUGO: Can you remember whether she was wearing a dress or whether she was wearing slax, can you narrow it down to that, or can't you even remember that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And then just finally, you testified today that your assessment was that this particular dress, Exhibit 1, your assessment was that this dress would not have fitted Ms Kubheka, why did you testify to that effect?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Because the way I observed it yesterday it was folded, but it was not the same as it appears today, do today I see it clearly.

MR HUGO: Yes, and what conclusion are reaching today?  Are you saying that it would in fact have fitted her??

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, because I see it on the light.  As I've explained to the Chairperson before lunch, that I saw it in a, it was dark when it was shown to me and it was a little bit folded, so today when I see it with the light and being unfolded, it can fit her.

MR HUGO: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you wish to put any questions to Mr Radebe concerning the exhibits that are before us?

MR VISSER: Just one question, Chairperson.
	Mr Radebe, when you look at that slip, would you say that is the slip worn by a large woman or a medium sized woman?  That is Exhibit 3.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the one on the other side, the brown one, not the shirt, the little dress or slip.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: By a tiny person.

MR VISSER: By a tiny person.  Thank you, Chairperson.
	And what about the jersey, Exhibit 2?

CHAIRPERSON: The polo-neck, the brown one there Mr Radebe, the one polo-neck shirt.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: The jersey has the tendency to rise, so it - to stretch.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nel, any questions?  Mr van der Merwe, any questions?  Mr Wills, any questions?  Mr Samuel, any questions?  Ms Thabethe, any questions?

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair, but I was just thinking that shouldn't we tailor maybe to measure the dress and find out what size it is?

CHAIRPERSON: We can do that if that can be arranged, somebody can try to determine the size of the dress.  If we can make arrangements for that, it would be helpful and then would then obviate the necessity for other evidence in that regard.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I know I'm talking a lot, but just an attempt to be of assistance, might we ask through the Chair, whether there are any of Ms Kubheka's clothes still remaining, so that we can simply compare the dresses that she used to wear, to this dress.  That may be a way of perhaps cutting out further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I will investigate that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Radebe, thank you, that concludes your testimony.  Mr Hugo has indicated that you would now want to go back to Pretoria because of the state of your health, and we'll excuse you from further attendance, but please, it will be on the basis that if your attendance is required again, you could be recalled at short notice.  It doesn't seem likely that that will happen, but if you could be on standby as it were, until this hearing is finished.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any further evidence you intend leading, Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: No, thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as we're concerned there's one further applicant to testify and that is Mr Roeloff Brand Visagie.