Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: , but I for one, I have never done that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can't take that any further.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.Now, are you aware whether any such planning took place regarding this particularattack on the St James church?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I think so.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you know who did that planning?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I don't know. I thinkit was my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That was Mr Nonxuba?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did he give you any instructions as to how to carryout this attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did he thenexpect you to know what you were supposed to do?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I won'tknow.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So are you saying that you would go to the attackwith the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander, but you wouldn't know what to do when you got there?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: We knew that on our way to St James, on that Sunday.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did he tell you on the way to St James?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: He just directedme as a driver, he was just giving me directions how to drive and where to goup until we reached the St James church.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: He didn't tellyou what you were going to do when you got there? Do you know?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Do you mean us?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Yes.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: He told me on Sundaywhen we met at Uluntu community centre that I will be helping them by drivingthe car during their operation.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did he tell you wasthe nature of the operation?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Hedidn't tell you where you would be driving the car to?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: He didn't tell you where you would be going afterwards?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: He also didn't tell you what the targetof the attack was?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Nobody else toldyou, none of your other comrades who were participating in the attack told youwhat the target of the attack was?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you were the driver of the vehicle who would take the people to the attackand take them away from the attack, that is correct is it not?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you have any plans as to what you would do ifanything went wrong?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, we had no plans.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So, if I am understanding you correctly then, you were the person responsiblefor making sure that the team got to the attack and away from the attack safely,but you had no idea of where you were going or how to get away from there thereafter?

<UNKNOWN>: an you please repeat what you have just said?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am saying is it correct to say ...

CHAIRPERSON: Your question is reallya repetition of what you have been asking, you know.

<UNKNOWN>: ll he knew is that hewas going to drive this group to that place and drive them back.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr Mlambisa, what would have happened if something had gone wrong? You didn'tknow what the target was, what if it had been a military target and Nonxubahad been shot, how would you have escaped?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: If I can tellyou correctly, I think the people who are sitting next to me, would have directedme.

<UNKNOWN>: ut they also say they had no idea where the targetwas or what it was going to be.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, it is like that, theydidn't know where we were going to attack, but they are residing in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town,they know Kenilworth and they know Wynberg. They know

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town as a whole.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: ut you were chosen as the driver?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, Iwas chosen.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you say in your evidence yesterday, thatthis was the first time you've been to

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, sir.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I think that is in fact contained in the statement in hand. Whenyou went to steal the car that you were going to use in the attack, once youhad stolen it, what if any preparations did you make to actually use it in theattack?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Such as?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: For example, didyou put petrol in the car?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, we did put petrol in thecar.

<UNKNOWN>: m I correct in saying that you put about R40-00 worthof petrol in the car?

<UNKNOWN>: re you telling me that?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am asking you if that is about right or not?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I can'tremember, I think it was R50-00. I think it was R50-00.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did you know that would be enough?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I don't know whetherthere was no petrol in the car, but we thought it was not enough and we werejust preparing for an emergency, so we had to put petrol in the car.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: If you were preparing for an emergency, why didn't you ask your

<UNKNOWN>: ommander whatthe possible escape route was or what plans he had in case something went wrong?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I cannot know, only my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander can know that because he wasthe one who gave us the petrol money, he was the one who knew how was the operationgoing to take place, otherwise I know nothing further than that.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, isn't the crux of the matter the admitting they had done this,they admit this brutal shooting, that he drove the car, that he in fact robbedthe car, that he shot somebody in robbing the car. Isn't the crux of the matterthe question of proportionality?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: With respect, Mr De Jager,I think there are two issues to this. The one is the issue of proportionality,the other one is the issue of full disclosure and we dispute that a full disclosureis being made here. I do not accept that these applicants are being honest inpurporting to dissociate themselves with any responsibility for the choice oftarget or denying that they had any knowledge of the type of target that theywere going to attack. I submit that is not in the spirit of the disclosure thatis contemplated in the

<UNKNOWN>: ct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, full disclosure certainlyof relevant facts, but whether R40-00 or R50-00 worth of petrol was put in thecar, who put the petrol and matters of that kind, surely I don't think thatwe should go into detail of that kind, I don't think they impinge on the pointthat you are trying to make.

<UNKNOWN>: s you please Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I understand you to, in effect, it may be a question of how onedoes it, but I understand you to say that, listening to your previous five questionsor so, I understand you to want to show that these applicants took part actuallyeven in the planning of this operation and possibly they are just putting everythingonto the late Nonxuba or something like that and that they must have taken partin the actual planning and sat down and discussed what we must do, which routeto take if we are caught, something like that. I think that is what you aretrying to do and you are saying that by trying to say that they did not takepart in the planning and the like, they are withholding information?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is my suggestion. I will submit it is essential in the nature of an operationsuch as this, that everyone would have had to have some input in as to how theattack was to take place. Specifically the driver, who would be responsiblefor the safety of the team to a large extent.

<UNKNOWN>: nd maybeagree or even disagree on certain aspects of the planning, something like that.

JUDGEWILSON: Do you dispute that this was his first visit to

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, you haven'tasked a thing about that? If it was his first visit to

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, is it at alllikely that he would know what route to take, what to do, wouldn't he have torely on the people who lived in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town to tell him that?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am unfortunately not in a position to dispute that was his first trip to