Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

MR MAY: I do not know who opened the safe.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see whether anything was taken from the safe?

MR MAY: It was only when these things taken from the safe was shown to me that I could look at them.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, you tried to take all the valuable things, is that correct in the house?

MR MAY: Yes, that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: And according to the evidence you would have sold these valuables in order to get money?

MR MAY: These articles would be sold where we would not be present as people who committed this act.  Our orders were to take these articles and exchange them for cash.

ADV DE JAGER: But you never asked Mrs May to hand over cash, to hand over money to you?

MR MAY: No, we did not.

ADV DE JAGER: But wouldn't it have been much easier to get the money in stead of taking all the trouble to try and find buyers for the goods?

MR MAY: That would not have been easy.

ADV DE JAGER: Why, why wouldn't it have been, in stead of taking all the articles get a lot of money and that you could hand over to your Commander?

MR MAY: It would not be easy because we were not told to get money from that place.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you seriously suggesting that you would rather steal watches that have got names on, which you would have to try to explain than to take money?

MR MAY: There was no money in that house and we also believed that we would not go into that house and ask for money or rather look for money.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't a brown wallet with money in fact found on your person?

MR MAY: No, sir.  It wasn't found on me.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it found in the car?

MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: How did it land in the car?

MR MAY: I put it in the car.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you find it to put it in the car?

MR MAY: I found it from the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: And the Krugerrands, where did you find that?

MR MAY: I think they were found from the safe, from within the safe.

ADV DE JAGER: And they were all found in the car?  Where was your husky wallet found?  Your denim husky wallet, was it also in the car or on your person?

MR MAY: It was found in the pocket of my trousers that I was wearing.

ADV DE JAGER: And the brown wallet wasn't in the pocket of your trousers?

MR MAY: No, sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And the watch?

MR MAY: It was not on me.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any more questions?

ADV MTHEMBU: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can go.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, Ii will call Mr Nkgwedi.

MR NKGWEDI: (sworn states)

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Nkgwedi, is it correct that you were arrested at house number 337, which is the house of Mr Leeuw?

MR NKGWEDI: I will request you to repeat the question.

ADV MTHEMBU: I said is it correct that you were arrested at house number 337, which is the house belonging to Mr Leeuw?

MR NKGWEDI: That is the truth.

ADV MTHEMBU: And is it further correct that at that time you were staying with Mr Leeuw?

MR NKGWEDI: Yes, that is so.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now, Mr Nkgwedi, paragraph 22 of the statement made by Mr De la Rey reads as follows:  "... at 13h00 I returned to the home of accused 2 and 3 due to information which they made available to me.  The following was handed to me."  This is paragraph 22(2) "one white pillow and a pair of brown mens' shoes, it was handed to me by accused 2.  This property was in the bedroom."  Do you have any comment to make regarding this allegation Mr Nkgwedi?

MR NKGWEDI: What I know is that I was arrested alone and there was nothing whatsoever that was found in my possession.  The articles you are referring to, I know nothing of, this is the first time I hear of such articles.

ADV MTHEMBU: Are you saying that this is the first time  you hear mention being made of this pair of brown mens' shoes?

MR NKGWEDI: I say myself, Nkgwedi, I was arrested alone.  This is a new thing to  me that a pair of brown shoes was found in my possession.  I was arrested alone, without any articles.

ADV MTHEMBU: Precisely where in Mr Leeuw's house were you arrested?

MR NKGWEDI: When this White thugs arrived they found me sleeping.  They woke me up kicking at  me and pointing a gun at me when they arrested me, this thugs.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr De la Rey says that that white pillow and those brown shoes were found in a bedroom.  Was it perhaps not the bedroom that you said they found you sleeping in when you were arrested?

MR NKGWEDI: They found me in the lounge because as Africans you will find that we live to a number of thousand in a shack.  They found me in the lounge because our houses are very small.  They are referred to as small houses.

ADV MTHEMBU: But then why would this De la Rey allege that he found this white pillow and this brown shoes in a bedroom and in fact that you handed over these two articles to him, taking into cognisance that more articles were stolen other than this pillow and just a pair of brown shoes?

MR NKGWEDI: I have already explained that I was arrested alone in that house, the rest are just fabrications by this White thug who is a policeman.  What I know is that I was arrested alone.  This is just a part on him to strengthen his case or get a promotion or a better rank, we know that white Boers have a legislation that they created like this White thugs of the TRC that you followed orders that you shoot that kaffir, they had a system of promoting themselves through the ranks and they were referred to as policemen.  This was the system that the Boers used to promote themselves through the ranks.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it possible that there could be a misunderstanding in the interpretation, when he says he was arrested alone.  As I understood it he was arrested with ...

ADV MTHEMBU: Accused number - Mr Leeuw.

ADV DE JAGER: If he says I've been arrested alone, isn't he trying to convey that he was arrested without a pillow and shoes, he was arrested without any goods being with him at that stage?

ADV MTHEMBU: I would assume so sir.  That as he said I was, as a person, but he felt any articles, having found in my possession or in the vicinity wherein I had been sleeping or arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.  Could you kindly clear that up.  Was he arrested with somebody or was he arrested alone as a single person?

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Nkgwedi, you said you were arrested alone.  Now do you mean you were arrested alone without any items or articles in your possession or were you arrested with someone else, could you please clarify that point for the Committee?

MR NKGWEDI: I say when this thugs arrested me, I was alone.  They didn't get any  jacket or coat or anything, I am speaking the truth here.  I am referring here to Nkgwedi.  I am not referring to any other person when I was arrested to the extend that I am a prisoner at the moment.  I was arrested alone.  I am not referring to any other person, I am referring here to Nkgwedi, myself.

JUDGE WILSON: Was anybody else arrested in the house at the same time?  In house 337?

MR NKGWEDI: At that time I will repeat this, I was asleep in the lounge.  Leeuw slept in his bedroom because our houses are very small, we could not sleep in that one bedroom all of us.  When these thugs arrested me, they took me to the car alone and Leeuw followed, being cuffed to the car.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you say Leeuw followed?

ADV MTHEMBU: He said so, Mr Chairman. So Mr Leeuw was arrested or you were found in the same house in which Mr Leeuw was, isn't it correct?

MR NKGWEDI: Yes, that is so.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Nkgwedi, do you have anything more to say or is that your testimony?