Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MARY BURTON: Now there was a collection of, I think it was bail money, for Mr Ngxobongwana, why did the collection of money lead to conflict within the Committee?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, this was in New Crossroads, the people from Old Crossroads were re-settled in New Crossroads, or at least some of these people and they had appointed a community committee affiliated to Old Crossroads' executive committee.  In other words as I understand it they were subjected to the Committee in Old Crossroads.  Now tension arose due to the fact that these people had collected money for bail, and there was something else for which they had collected money but I can't recall exactly what it was, so it was an issue of community involvement and I think the United Democratic Front was very much to the fore in that.  Some people then said no, we mustn't give money for bail and others said yes we should, and this led to division and conflict between the people.  And the UDF people apparently didn't want to contribute to the bail collection.
 That is how I understood it, but - that was the cause of the problem, it was the issue of the bail money which led to strife in Crossroads.

MARY BURTON: Now it was part of your job to try and understand all of that, and to understand the dynamics between the different sections in the area is that right?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that's correct.

MARY BURTON: So these disputes about the money would have been part of the reports that you were making on a regular basis?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.  I reported everything.

MARY BURTON: And I believe that when Mr Ngxobongwana was acquitted he spoke at a function during which he was angry with the United Womens Organisation and the UDF because they hadn't supported him, now were you present at that function?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I wasn't present at the function.  This was information which we got from the community to the effect that Mr Ngxobongwana had expressed his anger at this function.

MARY BURTON: So you were becoming increasingly aware that the divisions in the community were growing?

MR DU TOIT: Correct.

MARY BURTON: While Mr Ngxobongwana was in prison did you see him there?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I never saw him in prison.

MARY BURTON: You had mentioned earlier that Mr Ngxobongwana was often out of Cape Town, away from Cape Town, at one stage there was a delegation that went to visit him in the Ciskei, were you part of that group?

MR DU TOIT: Could you perhaps be a bit more specific, I am not sure what you mean, the delegation or group, I don't understand.

MARY BURTON: Mr Ndima told us that he had gone to see Mr Ngxobongwana in the Ciskei on an occasion and I am asking you if you went with him.

MR DU TOIT: No most definitely not.

MARY BURTON: Let us move on then to the days of some of the worst fighting in the area, the 9th, 10th and 11th of June, you remember that that was the time of major conflict in the area?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I do recall that.

MARY BURTON: Now in the days preceding that time did you submit reports warning that such an attack might happen?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MARY BURTON: And what would you say were the reasons for the attacks that took place?

MR DU TOIT: According to the residents in the community and also taking into consideration the whole history of the area the reason was that during 1985 the government had announced that Crossroads would not be upgraded anymore, or that it would be upgraded and developed into a residential area.  That meant that there was a great influx of people from the - residents from the Transkei, Ciskei to Crossroads.  Crossroads was over-populated, it was crowded, people in both Mr Ngxobongwana and Mr Yamile's group, they attached themselves to these satellite groups.
 During the announcement that Crossroads would not be done away with, and that it in fact would be upgraded there was an excitement which took hold amongst the people and this related to who would be included in the upgrading process.  In other words Mr Yamile, who was a leader of quite a large group and Mr Ngxobongwana was also a leader on the other side had a large group of followers, conflict arose between those two groups as to who should be included in the upgrading.  Ngxobongwana's followers believed that it should be them because they believed it was their area, and Mr Yamile on the other hand I believe he also felt that he had the right to be included in the upgrading, and that led to tension between the two groups.
 Then of course the second situation or reason was a political one.  Violence was an issue in those days and there had been attacks in Crossroads launched from outside.  I hope I have answered the question now.

MARY BURTON: Yes thank you.  I think you have given  us your views about the background reasons for the conflict, but by this time things were very acute in the area and there had been already deaths and considerable violence.
 Just to go back a little bit, a meeting held in the Athlone Police Station, as early as the 24th of April, which brought together some of the people who had become known as the Witdoeke leader and members of the police, were you part of that meeting?  Did you have any part in calling that meeting together?

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember the date, the date which you've just mentioned in April.  I was, however, involved in a meeting at the Athlone district commissioner at which a group of, I think, seven people, well I made the appointment for them to come and speak to the Police,

MARY BURTON: And what was the object of that meeting?

MR DU TOIT: The object of that meeting was that those people wanted to ask for Police protection for the residents and that's why I arranged for the meeting to take place.  They wanted to express their dissatisfaction about the security situation in Crossroads and the vicinity, and they wanted to be protected.  For that reason I wanted the matter to be discussed as soon as possible and at a high level.  I wanted the people themselves to come and talk about it.

MARY BURTON: We've heard a great deal about the existence of firearms, of weapons, in a number of these communities and it has been said to us that some of the leaders were asking the Police to give them weapons in order to be able to use them, are you aware of this?

MR DU TOIT: At that meeting in Athlone at which the group of approximately seven people came to speak they specifically asked the Police to give them weapons.

MARY BURTON: And are you aware of what the reply was?

MR DU TOIT: The answer was a most definite "no", we can't give you any weapons.  There were other agreements made but the people were, to some extent, pacified and they were told that the Police would address their problems and would strengthen their safety measures.

MARY BURTON: Can you tell us who was present at that meeting?

MR DU TOIT: The Chairperson of the meeting was the district commandant of those years, it was a Colonel Schreuder, I think, Brigadier Strydom was there as well and there were two or three other senior officers, I can't recall who exactly they were.  I think they were senior officers in the Athlone district.

MARY BURTON: And anybody from outside of Cape Town?

MR DU TOIT: I can't give you an affirmative answer, I don't think so, I don't recall any strangers being present.  It's possible but I can't recall it.  Unfortunately I never saw the list of those present, but I don't think so.

MARY BURTON: We have been told that there were police representatives from Pretoria there but you may not know that.  And from the community, the people who were represented there?

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember, there were six or seven people.  Some of these were from the older guard, very influential in the area, but I can't recall the exact names because I didn't actually take them to the meeting, so I can't really remember, I can't give you the names.