Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SCHILLINGER: Thank you Chair.  I would just like to clarify a couple of things to make it absolutely clear that in no way was I working in any capacity for the Truth Commission, but rather that my own investigation into this matter was for my own journalistic purposes.  Mr Siakamela was my source.  I contacted him on my own accord.  The second time I contacted him I did so at Mr Pigou's request.  I made the decision to include Mr Pigou at that point because I felt that if I could go to see Mr Siakamela, who had agreed in principle to meet with me, that Mr Pigou's presence would help me to answer a number of questions that were very unclear in my mind about this witness and what he could possibly tell me.
 Again I must say that our interests were separated.  The first two times that I spoke with Mr Siyakamela by telephone he showed no indication that he would be unwilling to meet with me and subsequently with Mr Pigou as well. His demeanour changed in the course of our meeting in accordance with some of the details that Mr Pigou has related.  I won't go through any of the further details to save time from our meeting but I would like to specify a couple of points that I felt were important from Mr Siakamela's interview with us.
 Some of the essential points that he corroborated in the testimony from Nicodemus Sono included details about the kombi in which Mr Sono last saw his son and details about Lolo's mother, Caroline Sono, bringing him a sweater shortly before she saw her son for the last time.  I thought some of those details were important minor corroborations to the testimony given by Nicodemus Sono.
 My efforts to contact Mr Siakamela throughout Sunday approximately every hour were again from my own individual journalistic interests.  I was interested in speaking with him again to go back over some of the things that he had told us the previous day so that I was absolutely sure of them, in no way was I calling to try to arrange for Mr Siakamela to meet with the TRC to give a statement.

MR VALLY: Mr Pigou, when you say "Mummy" he says he has been visited by "Oupa and Mummy", who did you understand him to mean?

MP PIGOU: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MR VALLY: Why do you say that?

MP PIGOU: It's become self-evident that the term "mummy" is used interchangeably with Mrs Mandela as is "Mama" and so forth.  It was clear to me that it was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MR VALLY: And what is the relationship between the person you refer to as "Oupa" and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MP PIGOU: Johannes Oupa Siakamela, according to Michael, is the father of Zinzi Mandela's first child, Zuleka.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you have.....

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson maybe let me firstly state it that according to my instructions Mrs Mandela was never in contact with Mr Siakamela, but maybe before one stops at that point it becomes very difficult, with respect, that evidence of this kind would normally not be tendered particularly if no explanation is offered why the primary source is not available to testify about those issues.  In the normal course of things this would be completely inadmissible evidence but it would seem that in a forum such as the one we have it is permissible. Now Chairperson we have a number of people who would have driven Mrs Mandela from the Commission here to her house who, if we are permitted, would put them on the stand to come and say whether Mrs Mandela ever left the household on that particular Friday.  And I don't know whether this would be sufficient refutation of this type of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me say why, I mean, one allowed this to happen.  It was that this morning we started, I started out with an appeal, an exhortation with regard to intimidation, intimidation of witnesses and therefore when we got this sort of information, and I had hoped that your, as you call him, your learned friend would have indicated the tenor of the testimony.  I mean you can discount most of it. The one primary point is the one where they speak about someone who was initially willing to testify and then after an alleged intervention showed very considerable reluctance and I thought I mean we could, wish to scrub out most of what they said from the record except what would have been an attempt at explaining why they wanted to speak at all.
 And remember that we are here, not in order to be prosecuting anybody, we are looking for the truth, that is why we are often producing documents and evidence that we believe will assist in that process even if it is - it may be information that is not as favourable to a position that Hanif was to put because we are not seeking to put your client in a bad light.  We are not seeking to put anybody in a bad light, we are just trying to discover what the truth is and there is no doubt at all I mean that there are some people who feel intimidated.  Now whatever the reason that is a fact and here is one particular instance.  
 Now I am thankful that I mean you are saying your client has not contacted this particular witness, are we able to establish that she has not been in contact with any other witnesses?

MR SEMENYA: I can confirm that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you wanting to go ahead because I was trying to explain why I have done what I have done.  Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson I think the context would begin to explain the difficulties that we have.  The processes before yourself Chairperson, and the commissioners surely does not exist in isolation with the broad legal system in the country.  The courts are still there, the police are still there and prosecution of things such as the ones which the two witnesses are testifying about, all they needed to do is to go and report this event to the police, let us have an investigation and let us have Mrs Mandela, if there is substance to it, prosecuted before a court of law.  This type of evidence would not stand in a court of law which is now being offered here as a basis of explaining there was intimidation because "Mummy" is somewhat synonymous with Mrs Mandela.  This type of evidence would not fly before a court of law.  It is therefore unfair, with respect, if it offered here and we know what the media is going to do with this type of information, it would be just relaying it as brutal as it might sound, and that is the protection we seek, with respect Chairperson.