Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

JACK MBELE: According to my knowledge, yes he was the only Rubin I knew.

MR PRIOR: Do you know the person by the name of Gajeni?

JACK MBELE: I know him.

MR PRIOR: What is his surname?

JACK MBELE: I think Gajeni is the surname if I'm not mistaken, Gajeni is the surname.

MR PRIOR: Was he also resident in the kwaMadala Hostel at the time of attack?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And Gajeni, where is he today?

JACK MBELE: After I was released from prison relating to this incident I went to the hostel and most of them were not residing there any more.  I once saw him in Vereeniging at the offices of the IFP.  I think he's somewhere in town.

MR PRIOR: Did you see Gajeni on the evening of the attack whilst you were moving through Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I did not see him.

MR PRIOR: One last aspect, how much ammunition did you have with you on that night?

JACK MBELE: Sixteen.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did you have?

JACK MBELE: There were fifteen. 1-5.

MR PRIOR: Finally, were you not together with Rubin Magubane, a person by the name of Themba, Lucky - was one of your co-applicants, Makuka and Gajeni on that evening moving through Boipatong all armed with handguns?

JACK MBELE: The person I was with is Makuka.

MR PRIOR: Just one last aspect.  Did you have any problem with Matanzima, that was Andries Masenga?

JACK MBELE: I did not have a problem with him.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbele, will you please look at EXHIBIT M1?  You'll note that there is a road that runs just above point D on the left hand side, it runs across the aerial photograph to a point called M, do you see that?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: That road is known as the Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you recognise it from the aerial photograph?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: You'll see there's a point C, a Trek Garage, do you see that?

JACK MBELE: Yes I see that.

MR DA SILVA: Then you see another road, the C, the point C.  The Trek Garage is at an intersection, you'll see another road goes to the top of the middle of the photograph and on it are points E and F.  Do you see that?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: That road is Noble Boulevard, do you recognise that?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Do you see a point marked K, that's a tree?

JACK MBELE: Yes I see that point.

MR DA SILVA: Do you see a point marked H, that's a pedestrian bridge?

JACK MBELE: Yes, I see it.

MR DA SILVA: Now yesterday Mr Tshabangu testified and prior to that Mr Khanyile testified that after the attack the group gathered at the tree, the point marked K.  Do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say they gathered at the tree before or after the attack?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, I understood after.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection was that they gathered there before the attack.  Just put the question that you want to.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree that the group gathered at the tree marked K after the attack?

JACK MBELE: I do not agree because when I joined the people had already gathered.

MR DA SILVA: Did you gather or did you join the group at the point at the tree, the point marked K?

JACK MBELE: Sir, I'm saying these people were gathered in the middle, whether it was next to a tree, far from a tree, I would not agree because I was right at the back and when we approached from Amatolo, they already started moving and I would not go to where they were standing at first, I would just join them as we all go.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree that after the attack the group crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard at H, the pedestrian bridge?

JACK MBELE: That is correct, that's where we crossed.

MR DA SILVA: When you were in the vicinity of the pedestrian bridge, did you see on the armoured vehicle in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

JACK MBELE: When myself and Themba were approaching and Themba shot, the car moved backwards to the direction of the garage.  Whether it stopped or not I do not know.

MR DA SILVA: Now would you agree that it was travelling, retreating in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

JACK MBELE: I would not dispute that, I would not agree with that because the last time I saw it, it was retreating towards the garage and then we were not standing because we were proceeding.  Whether it went back or drove anywhere else I do not know.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Mbele, you're being asked what road did the armoured vehicle retreat in.  What road was it in when you saw it retreating?  That's the question you're being asked.

JACK MBELE: When Themba shot, the car was parked next to Frikkie Meyer.  When Themba shot in the air it moved and it went to the direction of the garage and it stopped there and we proceeded until we crossed.

MR DA SILVA: When Themba shot how far away was he from you?

JACK MBELE: Mr da Silva, I'm now afraid of mentioning the distances because it looks like I'm contradicting myself.  Mr Berger was trying to pin me down on this issue of distances but anyway I would say it was quite a distance but I do not know how long the distance was but it was quite a distance.

MR DA SILVA: Could you see Themba clearly?

JACK MBELE: Yes he was just next to me like the gentleman sitting next to me.  He was even wearing a camouflage jacket.

MR DA SILVA: You say he shot in the air, in what direction was he pointing his firearm?

JACK MBELE: I did not even want to see which direction because my mind told me that he was shooting in the air.

MR DA SILVA: Wasn't he pointing in direction of the armoured vehicle?

JACK MBELE: If ever he pointed a gun like this he would have shot people who were in front of us.  Now he was just shooting in the air.

MR DA SILVA: Wasn't he trying to frighten off the armoured vehicle, isn't that why he shot the firearm?

MR MALINDI: I would agree with you on that point, he was trying to scare them off.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: I've got no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Yesterday you said that you were arrested by Sergeant Pentz.  It was alleged that you - in fact you answered: "It was alleged we were the hit squad from kwaMadala Hostel", do you remember?

JACK MBELE: I remember that.

ADV SIGODI: With whom were you arrested?

JACK MBELE: It was myself and Rubin, that Rubin and Darkie Chonco and Jabu, his surname is Motsapi and Celo Hunter Ndlovu.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know where Sergeant Pentz could have had this information or why you were accused of this?

JACK MBELE: I do not know.

ADVSIGODI: Another aspect, you mentioned that you were friends with Khosi?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Were you arrested together after the Boipatong attack?

JACK MBELE: He was arrested for the Boipatong attack, I was arrested afterwards when the court proceedings were in order.

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that he said to you that he saw Timothy raping?  Do you remember that?

JACK MBELE: Could you repeat your question, I did not understand it?

ADV SIGODI: In fact let me just get it right for you.  Yesterday you were asked about Lucky, who Lucky is, do you remember that?

JACK MBELE: I remember.

ADV SIGODI: The first time you said you didn't know Lucky?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Then when you were asked again you say that you know Lucky as ...[indistinct]

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: And that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi is one of the applicants, isn't it?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Right, then when you were asked about what Mr Maloi said after the attack, it was said to you that you were told that Sonny Mkwanazi had said that he had raped somebody?