Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR VISSER: Now do you have knowledge of the consequences of any information that might have been received from Ms Betty Boom?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Just ask that again please.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether information regarding the activities of MK, was received from Ms Betty Boom?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Is this prior to her being brought to Ladybrand, or at ...

MR VISSER: Well both, at any stage.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: The information that she supplied us with?

MR VISSER: Yes.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, she supplied us with information about MK activities in and outside Lesotho.

MR VISSER: You heard the evidence of Mr Jagga?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I heard the evidence of Mr Jagga.

MR VISSER: About Mr Tony Yengeni?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And he mentioned a name of a person in Bloemfontein, is that right?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And who was that person?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He mentioned the name, Makanda.  It's almost like Makanda.  I can't remember the correct name of that person.

MR VISSER: Yes.  It may be Kapanda, it's something that sounds like that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's possible, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, I have no further evidence-in-chief from this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, could I just say something please?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: In my statement, paragraph 3 on - I don't know which ...(indistinct) reads - it's 22B in paragraph 3 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just bear with me for a moment.  22B?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: 22B, paragraph 3.  I'll read it
"I have read the evidence of Jantjie and fully agree with his testimony about the events of these incidents."
I'd just like to add there:
"as far as I'm concerned"

MR VISSER: Do you mean to say in as far as he refers to you?  Is that what you're saying.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, that's what I'm trying to say.

MR VISSER: And in incorporating Jantjie's evidence, you incorporated the statement, not his evidence that he gave?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: In fact, while you're on that score, do you agree with everything that Mr Jantjie told this Committee?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I don't agree with everything that he told the Committee, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Mr Malindi, are you taking the queue?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I will continue with this witness.
	Mr Robertshaw, would you agree that Thulo's evidence amounts to saying that he was not allowed into the interrogation room where Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane were being interrogated?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, I don't know if we can refer to it as an interrogation room, she was being debriefed, basically, in a room at the farm.  If he was not allowed in there - I wasn't there all the time, so I can't give an answer to that.

MR MALINDI: And he also indicated that sometimes within the section there are things that he wouldn't know about and he wouldn't even ask about them and that was the way things worked.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I never excluded any information from him wilfully.  If he wasn't present when certain things were discussed, then he might interpret it as if we hadn't told him, but it was never done wilfully to excluded him from anything.

MR MALINDI: And with that evidence in mind and him having only last seen the victims that are the subject of this enquiry, at the farm, it gives the impression that he last saw them on the farm when they were being put in that room where they were being questioned or debriefed or interrogated, and he never saw them again.  That's the gist of his evidence, do you agree?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I agree with that.  I don't know if he saw them after that, he might have seen them in Lesotho, I'm not sure.

MR MALINDI: Well his evidence is he last saw them on the farm.  That was his answer to one of the Committee Member's question.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's what he said, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Do you agree with the evidence so far, that you had information about Betty Boom's cell and you had information that they were preparing to launch attacks into the Free State, in particular?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We had that information, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And as a section gathering intelligence, your role would have been to alert the relevant security arm, to either arrest them when they go out on this mission, or to intercept them or something to that effect, is it not so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, are we talking in general now, or are we talking specifically about this?

MR MALINDI: In general.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson, that was one of our tasks, amongst others.

MR MALINDI: And will it be fair to say in this instance, you had enough information to alert other Security Forces to effect arrests, at least, upon this unit of Betty Boom's?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't follow the gist of the question, can you clarify please?  I'm not sure.

MR MALINDI: Sure.  If your role was to gather information and to pass it on to relevant arms of the Security Forces, and one of those arms would - I think you would agree with me, the Security Forces that will effect arrests upon people that you've gathered information on, when they launched attacks into South Africa.  What I'm suggesting is that you had enough information to ensure that this whole unit is arrested if and when they launched attacks into the Free State.  You agree with me?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: At the time?

MR MALINDI: Yes.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If we had the information that they were going to launch attacks into the Free State and they did that, then we would take measures to arrest them or prevent them from doing so.

MR MALINDI: In the applications before the Committee, there's reference that you had knowledge that this unit was about to launch attacks during the Xmas period, into the Free State.  Did you have that information yourself?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If we have a look at - you're talking about this unit, you're talking about Betty Boom's unit?

MR MALINDI: Yes.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, they had people inside the Republic, the people inside the Republic were going to commit these attacks.  It wasn't that they were going to come out of Lesotho and commit the attacks.

MR MALINDI: Well at a later stage I think I'll refer to the applications which clearly indicate that this unit was going to launch attacks.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: How wide is - the question is, how wide was the unit?  How big was it?  How many people belonged to the unit?

MR MALINDI: Well one application form, I think it's Jantjie's application form, it first says the unit consisted of three people and then in the supplementary papers it says it consisted of four people.  Is that your information that you had?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: The unit inside Lesotho?

MR MALINDI: Inside Lesotho.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, that's correct.

MR MALINDI: Well if one looks at page 9 of Jantjie's application, which all associate yourselves with, the second paragraph from the bottom, which reads - the second sentence
"By means of informers we were informed that she was a Commander of an MK cell which was responsible for the launching of terrorist operations from Lesotho to the RSA"