Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR TLOUBATLA: Right and did you also, did you follow the Chevrolet and which car were you using and with whom were you when you followed the Chevrolet?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We were not following the Chevrolet.  When we arrived it had already left.  When I arrived there was this Renault Nine, the one that we had picked up from town and I was using Jeff's white vehicle.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.  Right, let me rather put it this way.  We have been told by you co-applicants that they went to Glen's place.  What I want to know is did you ultimately get to Glen's place in Shawella?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did go to Glen's place in Shawella.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla just a little bit to be fair to the witness because later on it may be put to him that he didn't say certain things.  Let him complete the picture he's trying to give us.  He arrives from town - you arrived from town and I suppose you mean arriving, when you say you arrived in Orlando I assume you mean arriving at Jeff's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I can say I made a mistake, when I referred to Orlando I meant that I just made a turn at Orlando and proceeded to Jeff's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Arrived at Jeff's place?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Renault?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I was driving Jeff's Mazda at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  How many cars were there at Jeff's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: There was this one Renault, the one that we had just picked up from the garage in town.

CHAIRPERSON: The Chevrolet had already left at the time with three others who were in the boot?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: The last thing, what about the boot?

CHAIRPERSON: The Chevrolet had already left with three boys who were in the boot?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived we were told that the Chevrolet had already gone to Shawella and we too should follow.

CHAIRPERSON: Follow in which car?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: They were loaded into Renault Nine, accompanied by comrade Sam, I don't know who else was present.  I remained behind and followed in Jeff's Mazda and in the company of Jeff himself and this Mazda did not have any one of these victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You Mr Thandakubona?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes myself and Jeff left his house for Shawella in his Mazda.

CHAIRPERSON: The Mazda then followed the Chev or at least drove to Shawella?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other three boys, you say they were in the boot of the Renault.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes if I still remember very well, they were loaded into the boot of the Renault.  I was there at the time, I did see them being loaded into the boot of the Renault.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you drove to Shawella and you arrived at Shawella I believe?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes we did arrive at Shawella.

CHAIRPERSON: Take it further from there, what happened there.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We found the Chevrolet parked outside and the Renault had also arrived.  We were expected to get into the house and establish what was happening.  Indeed we went into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Just take it slow just to allow us to make notes and so on but give us the details, they're quite all right but just take it a bit slower.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Okay.

MR MALAN: Sorry, was this now Jeff's house at Shawella?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No.

MR MALAN: Which house, you went into what house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: That is Glen's house.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright you arrived there and then ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I'm going to interrupt you, I'm sorry about that.  I don't understand how can three people have been in the boot of a Renault Nine?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I don't know Chairperson.  They fitted well in the boot, there was nothing they could do.

CHAIRPERSON: If my knowledge of vehicles doesn't let me down, it's a very small car surely?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes, the boot of the Renault Nine is spacious, a little spacious because it proceeds inwards.  There was nothing the boys could have done, they had to fit into the boot.

CHAIRPERSON: You then went to Glen's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: That's correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, when you arrived at Glen's house in Shawella, do you recall who you followed there?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I still remember very well.  People that I saw there on arrival were Glen, the owner of the house, his friend, Madrix, that's his name and he was with his girlfriend, comrade Pitso was also present, comrade Ghani as well.  The whole group from Orlando West was now at Glen's house now everything was being conducted at Glen's house.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then what is it - anything specific that you discussed, that is let's say with the group or something that was said to you?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we left Orlando West I had knowledge already because comrade Sam had already told me that these boys were going to be killed.  When we arrived at Shawella I already had that knowledge except to say I didn't know what spot they were going to be killed at.  When it was being discussed as to the killing spot, Jeff requested me to accompany him to Dlamini where guns had to be fetched from other comrades so that we should be in the position to defend ourselves, after the killing, in the event of these people coming back to attack us.  We indeed went for these other guns, we could not find them, the people that we wanted were not there and then we went back into the house and on arrival, I wanted to know what the next step would be and it was indicated that everything was finalised.  I then understood that that meant that the boys had now been killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Where were the boys were at this stage, when all this was taking place, the victims.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: What are you referring to?

ADV BOSMAN: When you came back where were the boys, did you see them, the victims?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Are you referring - are you asking in which room of Glen's house these boys were, in the boot of the car or where.  Would you please explain?

ADV BOSMAN: ... (inaudible) clear to me, according to your evidence, whether they got out of the cars, whether they were taken out of the boot?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: They were taken out of the boot into the house.

ADV BOSMAN: ... (inaudible)

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I think I remember, that is if I am correct, I think we had already blindfolded them from Jeff's house into the boot at Jeff's house, the reason being that we did not want them to know where they were or where they were being taken to.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you left with Jeff to go to Dlamini, they were still blindfolded?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I can testify that I did see one of them lying down being asked the final questions, his eyes still blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say when you came back from Dlamini with Jeff, after you failed to find the guns, when you came back you were told that everything had been done and finished with and to you and then you understood that to mean that the boys had already been killed?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Was everybody still there at Glen's house?  I mean when you were told that now the mission has been accomplished, the boys had been killed.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes they were still present.  We arrived at the time when everything had been done.  When we arrived I thought that we were still going to kill the boys but I learned that everything had been done, the boys had now been killed.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then from there, what happened, where did you go?