Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can we move on to some other aspect, if it is not convenient to carry on questioning on these Press statements?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will have to reorganise my examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue putting these questions and in re-examination, maybe he will be able to clear it up.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I will put it on the basis that they have not been denied, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And then my learned friend, counsel for the applicant can choose to let us know.  If they dispute them I am assuming that they will call the friends of the applicant to dispute it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.  At any rate they will have the opportunity of re-examining their witness.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After consulting whoever they wish to.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Then may we have a look at R3, Section H, page 3.  You see this is from Beeld
"The Government is trying to link the CP to the murder of Mr Chris Hani by arresting a member of the CP and Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg, deputy leader said that yesterday.  That was on the ..."
(...indistinct)  Now at that stage it would appear that Dr Hartzenberg believed that you were innocent and that your arrest was a "komplot" of the Government. Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Apparently, yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, that would be because you had kept your planning and execution of Chris Hani's murder from the acting leader of the Conservative Party.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, he was not the acting leader of the Conservative Party.  This report says clearly "onder-leier van die KP", not acting leader.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, thank you for that correction.  At that time Dr Treurnicht was hardly in a position to make any Press statements, and the "onder-leier" made that on his behalf.  In any event, the question is, that Dr Hartzenberg, never mind his correct designation, thought that you were innocent and the victim of a National Party Government "komplot" to falsely implicate you in the murder.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: From this report, yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: As far as you are concerned, the deputy leader of the Conservative Party knew nothing about your involvement in it even after your arrest.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, because in terms of Section 29 I had no access to him to tell him anything about it, and as I testified earlier, I actually read out a copy of a statement which I eventually had to smuggle out of the Section 29 detention, in order to claim responsibility for the deed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now the gravamen of my question, Mr Derby-Lewis, is that he obviously knew nothing about your involvement.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I replied to that in the affirmative, Mr Chairman, already.

CHAIRPERSON: By that, I think I would like clarity, whether your involvement prior, in other words, Dr Hartzenberg knew nothing about the fact that you were planning to do what had happened?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: He  ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Bizos, are you going on with what happens thereafter on this article?

GEORGE BIZOS: "He said in the debate about the State President's budget, he asked whether Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, the CP member of the President's Council who was this weekend arrested in connection with the murder of Mr Hani, whether he was going to be charged, and what he is going to be charged for."
Further evidence that he knew nothing about it and he cast aspersions about the integrity of the persons who arrested or caused his arrest.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And then he goes on to say that
"Dr Hartzenberg had said that Mrs Winnie Mandela ..."
He mentioned two names in the London Times of two ANC members who allegedly were involved with the murder of Mr Chris Hani, but the Government is too scared to arrest them. Tell me, you didn't co-operate with two ANC members in killing Mr Chris Hani, did you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well, we can disregard that report then.
"The Government will not also arrest Mr Mokaba, the leader of the ANC Youth League, who said that Boere must be murdered.  The CP can be investigated concerning the murder of Mr Hani, because nothing will be found there, because he is not involved with murders; the ANC should be investigated."
Well, that's a false statement that was made by Mr Hartzenberg, false in fact, he - I am not saying for one moment that he knew of your involvement, but it was false in fact, is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but understandable in the circumstances, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see, yes.  What is understandable?  That Dr Hartzenberg should blame the ANC and the National Party Government and not you?  Is that what's understandable?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't say that, Mr Chairman, because he wasn't talking about me, he was talking about the ANC.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, he said that the ANC and the Government were responsible when you knew - when you know that you and Walus did it alone.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He didn't say the ANC and the Government were responsible, Mr Chairman. It is clear from this statement that he was pointing fingers at the ANC only.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, and that the Government was too afraid to investigate it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, very well. Now let's - can we please go to the next one. Section C, page 1, in The Citizen.   R3, page 1.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "CP Derby-Lewis Smokescreen.
The arrest of Conservative Party President councillor, Mr Clive Derby-Lewis ..."
It is the same speech, but reported in another paper -
"....CP Deputy Leader, Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg said yesterday.  Speaking during the debate on the State President's Vote he said that the CP did not kill people and that the Government would not find anything out which it could hold against the party."
That too turned out to be incorrect.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's right, Mr Chairman, because he was not aware of the details.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was - not of the details, he didn't know that one, and he was shocked, that one of its leading members had made himself guilty of murder.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, he wasn't shocked at that. He was shocked that I was arrested on suspicion of having committed the murder.  Because he didn't know at that time whether I had committed a murder or not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh. Are you going to say that if he knew that you had committed a murder, he would have sent you a congratulatory telegram? (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not saying anything, Mr Chairman, because that would be pure speculation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now what I want to put to you, Mr Derby-Lewis, that you are denying the obvious and that you are denial is false.  Not only are there these cuttings, but also we will show a full interview with the leader of the Conservative Party, of an interview between Mr Lester Venter and him on the SABC, in which your leader in the Conservative Party, dissociates himself and the Conservative Party completely from the policy of violence and from you, if in fact you were shown to be guilty. Have you any comment to make if those - if the facts as I've put to you up to now are correctly reported, and if that interview with Mr Lester Venter is shown to the Committee?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, could Mr Bizos, before I answer that question, tell me what date the interview was carried out?

GEORGE BIZOS: Shortly after your arrest.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What date, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: The tape, Mr Chairman, is in the possession of the Commission. From the content it is clear that it was shortly after the funeral of Mr Chris Hani, but we will establish the precise date.