Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes and a fourth point that there is a commentary by Capt Botha attached to that report which begins at paragraph 37, Capt Botha as a processor of that report would have found a way, if Charles Ndaba was at that time his informant, to find a way to begin to secure his safety.  By the comments that he's put, he has a comment starting 37.  On paragraph 37.6 he deals with the identification of Charles Ndaba from a photograph.  It is his comments I understand, that go through from paragraph 36 onwards to almost the end of the document.  So if he was at that time the handler of Charles Ndaba, he would have found a way through his comments, to begin to disguise or shift attention from Charles Ndaba, or that's what I would have done.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now we're going to deal with those four issues, Mr Maharaj.  First of all, just to bring some clarity in regard to what Exhibit J 1 purports to be.  Would you agree with me that during the conflict of the past, one of the ways of dissemination information of Security interests was by way of Security reports made by the various divisions to Headquarters to be disseminated to other Security Branches who might have an interest in that information?  You would agree with that Gen Steyn.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, I would agree with that but that's within the Security establishment.

MR VISSER: Yes, obviously.  This J 1 purports to be exactly such a security report.  Would you agree with me that what this document professes is that Sgt Wasserman was the person who handed in the report?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That's what the document says.

MR VISSER: That's what it says.  And that the report concerns information which he received from an informer whom he identifies as PN 666.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, 664.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Maharaj, just look.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Oh, code number of source, yes.

MR VISSER: 666

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, right.

MR VISSER: And it concerns ANC activities in Durban and Swaziland and in the right-hand column, I put it to you that those Security Branches are the ones that it was thought would have an interest in the information.  Would you accept that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now in paragraph 1 on that page, there's a reference to "Beruggewer PN 664".

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: And in parenthesis behind that there's B2 which is the rating of the value and reliability of the informer, you can take that for granted, but it has a reference to Maj A R C Taylor, which seems to suggest that that particular informer was the informer handled by Col Taylor, Major at the time.  You would agree with that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That would be a reasonable deduction.

MR VISSER: Alright.  The report itself starts with paragraph 2, with a synopsis.  The synopsis is given, obviously by Wasserman, dealing with what the report was and that report one finds at paragraph 3, at page 3.  You would agree with that?  So he's giving a summary,

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Of the contents of paragraph 32, page 9, I believe it is, page 9 paragraph 35.  That is what the PN 666 tells him and he now deals in paragraph 2 with the summary of that for the convenience of the reader, one would imagine.  Alright.  Paragraph 2.1. he starts off by summarising the information by saying that on the 12th of February 1988, PN 666 visited Swaziland in order to make a report on behalf of one MK Lucky and to receive instructions from the ANC Natal Machinery.  So that is pretty obvious.

CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph is this?

MR VISSER: This is paragraph 2.1. Mr Chairman, when it's in parenthesis, I'm simply going to refer to it as 2.1 instead of, unless you, perhaps I should more accurately refer to it as 2(1).  Mr Commissioner Lax certainly doesn't like that suggestion, so I'll refer to it as 2.1  That's at page 1 of Exhibit J 1,  and he goes on to say from paragraph 2.2 onwards, gives a summary of what this man told him happened to him.  He reported at the tavern hotel, he telephoned certain  Mdu (M-D-U), which is identified as Mduduzi (M-D-U-D-U-Z-I) Milletus (M-I-L-L-E-T-U-S) Radebe (R-A-D-E-B-E), I'm informed one pronounces it Gadebe.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It depends whether it's Zulu or Xhosa.

MR VISSER: Well, I wouldn't know.  But a reference number is given S4/44328, which obviously refers to Mr Radebe.  Okay.  Now if I may pause there to inform you what I have been instructed in regard to the abbreviations or the letters preceding numbers etc in this document.  I am told that the S prefix refers to Security Headquarters.  I am referred to also, that the initials F A, Freddy Allen if I may put it that way, refers to Photo album.  That album is an album which contained hundreds if not thousands of photographs of people suspected of being ANC MK SACP Azapo, Azano supporters which were all in a bundle for purposes of identification.  I'm informed that wherever there's a reference to NGN, November George November, NGN, it stands for "Nie geidentifiseer nie", loosely translated as not identified.  And then you will find, Mr Maharaj, as you no doubt have observed, in the document there are references to V for victory as a prefix to other letters and numbers and you will sometimes find a V1 or a V2 or a V3 or a V4.  Now I am told that what that represents is "Veiligheid" or Security and the 1 was the category dealing with whites.  V2 was the category dealing with coloureds, V3 was the category dealing with Indian people and V4 was the category dealing with blacks, so that if you had a reference to a file and it was a black person, it would then in the division itself be referred to as V4 etc etc.
	Precisely the same obtained as regard to Security Head Office references.  The S would be followed by the equivalent of 1, 2, 3, 4, denoting exactly the same categorisation, according to race.  So in this document or in these documents Exhibit J, contained in Exhibit J, you will find such references and when you do you will then know what that is intended to denote.

CHAIRPERSON: So far you've given very good evidence, Mr Visser, you haven't asked a single question.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm just, this is a question of background and if needs be the evidence will be presented to you.  I've got to put it to the witness because ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: He may be able to confirm some and not others.  That's what I'm getting at.  You're putting the whole thing to him and I think you should ask, does he know this, does he know that?

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Maharaj, I departed from perhaps an incorrect assumption that you wouldn't know this, that  this would probably be news to you.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Well, so far the news has been the 1,2,3,4.  I didn't know the extent to which race classification had followed them and I'm sure that V 4 or S 4 wasn't blacks it was Bantu.

MR VISSER: Or whatever, but black people then.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there were categories such as S and V?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: S, yes I am aware, V was a bit puzzling to me, but I'm obliged to the counsel for that.

CHAIRPERSON: You accept it?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the others, do you accept what you've heard so far?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: F A, Photo album, perfectly acceptable and something that one had guessed at.

CHAIRPERSON: N G N?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: One was puzzled, I'm obliged to the information.