Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

MR STANDER: I also want to add, I do not waste the commission's time, I just want to inform the commission that the possibility exists to assist the commission. If such persons come forward it will happen during the course of next week.  If the commission tells me that I do not have to do anything further in this connection, I will leave it as such.

CHAIRPERSON: No, if you wish to notify them, or somebody wishes to notify them, I'm not saying he shouldn't.

UNKNOWN: And I should say that when I asked that question, I was not suggesting that we should open these proceedings in such a way that they should look like it's just a free for all situation.  These are formal proceedings and people should come in at the right time if they want to testify and I did not suggest that proceedings should be just opened up and be allowed to get out of hand like that.

MR STANDER: I have understanding for the situation, I will leave the matter there.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, to save time, can the witness go to the witness stand so long, the next witness?

UNKNOWN: Mr Sesedinyane please?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps there should be some enquiry made Mr Stander, because I have drawn your attention to the fact Mr Ngo names at page 35 of his application, names four of the victims.  The victim Maloshono Malakane was interviewed by, on behalf of the TRC apparently and she informed the interviewer that she had never been tortured or detained at the Botshabelo Police Station in 1986 and she knows where the other people are.  So if anybody wants to, they can enquire from her.  She's told where the other people have moved to, she has a telephone number.

MR STANDER: I undertake to - if possible, to get in touch with these specific persons and I will inform the commission on Monday what has been done about that.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: May I continue Mr Chairman?
	Mr Sesedinyane, is it correct that your name is spelt S-e-s-e-d-i-n-y-a-n-e?

CHAIRPERSON: S-e-s-e-d- ?

UNKNOWN: It's P41, Exhibit P41 Mr Chairman, I was just going to refer you to that but I will spell it again - S-e-s-e-d-i-n-y-a-n-e, and his christian names are B-u-t-i-n-y-a-n-e Simon.
	Now, Mr Sesedinyane, you have a problem with your interpretation?  Mr Sesedinyane, are you a member of the South African Police Service?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Since, or rather when did you join the South African Police?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: From 1973 Sir.

UNKNOWN: And is it correct that you also became a member of the security branch here at Bloemfontein.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly assist me, sorry to interrupt  you.  It's Exhibit?

UNKNOWN: P41, 41 Mr Chairman.  It may have been bound in a bundle, let me just see Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: 13, page 13 of Exhibit B.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I was just going to look for the page.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it's not page 13.

UNKNOWN: No, it's not page 13.

UNKNOWN: It says 13 on the index.

MR BRINK: If it's the affidavit, it's a page 108 I think.

UNKNOWN: Indeed, it's page 108 of bundle B Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct that you became aware that certain allegations of illegal activity were made against you Mr Sesedinyane?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And did you thereupon make an affidavit with Attorney Wagner?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Is that the document now being shown to you and was that signed by you?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And did you make that affidavit out of your own free will without anybody cohersing you?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit as being true and correct?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: In paragraph 2.3 you refer to an annexure B of an applicant.  Just by way of explanation, that is an annexure which refers - that refers to an annexure to Mr Motsamai's application, is that correct?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, why I'm making this point is you will recall, there is an Annexure A and the same document became an Annexure B and then there were cross-references, Annexures A and B, but they were the same document.  Perhaps it will be less confusing if you bore that in mind.
	But apart from the allegations contained in paragraph 12 to which we'll come in a moment, by Mr Motsamai, is it not true that you were implicated by a Mr Ngo in his application?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And that concerned the item of the, what we refer to as the Botshabelo incident?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this, where is the reference?

UNKNOWN: Page 31 of bundle A Mr Chairman, page 31.   We must just place on record Mr Chairman, that it's not altogether clear that this is the particular person that is implicated.  If you look at the handwritten document at the foot of page 35.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he names a Samuel.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the second last name.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the only reference to a name isn't it, at page 35?

UNKNOWN: We're departing from the point of view that he may implicated and that's why he is presenting himself to you as a witness, Mr Chairman.
	During 1985 and '86, what were your duties as a policeman?  Where were you stationed with what unit were you working and what were your duties?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I joined the police in 1973.  I was stationed at Park Road uniform branch.

UNKNOWN: And in 1985?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: In 1985 I was in the uniform branch and in 1986 or 1985, I was working at special duty in East London.

UNKNOWN: Alright.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: And in 1986 on the 7th month on the 24th, I started at the security branch in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: At what date?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: On the 24th of July 1986, on the 24th of July.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, did you say June or beginning of July, still in East London?  that's 1986?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I was in East London and when I left I went straight to the security branch.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before Mr Visser proceeds, we have just been instructed that the person implicated, Samuel Sinyane was a special constable at Botshabelo and is not a member of the security branch and therefore Mr Sesedinyane can go and have a rest.

CHAIRPERSON: Person implicated by who?

ADV MEMANI: By Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: But what about Motsamai?

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases.  Yes I remember now he's implicated in the forming of the church.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You don't say that that was not him.

ADV MEMANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say that the Ngo one, that although he is referred to there as constable it was a special constable?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  Mr Visser may proceed Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Alright, well then lets confine ourselves to paragraph 12 page 148 of bundle A, Mr Chairman.  Here, Mr Motsamai in his application said that he, Mamome, Sergeant Sesesidayne, that's you, and Constable Morakile petrol bombed a parish house in Botshabelo.
	He says he cannot recall the name of that parish or the church, he says the priest who was staying in that house had been involved in political activities.  "Sesedinyane can furnish further information regarding that incident"
So what Mr Motsamai says is you were part of the group of people who petrol bombed the parish or the church and you can give up yourself - can give further information.  Can you comment on what I've just read to you?  What do you say about that?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: The issue that I took part in that group which petrol bombed the church or the parish, it's a lie.  I dispute the whole issue.