Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: A cream-white poloneck.

MS THABETHE: You have indicated that you never saw her after that, is that correct?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Mr Visser, are there any questions that you would like to put to Mrs Dludla?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chair.

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, before my learned colleague, I am sorry for interrupting, there is just one question I forgot to ask, can I?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.   In your own description, what would you say Ms Ntombi Kubheka looked like, or what was her weight, in your own words?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She was a little bit taller than I am and she had quite a small breast, and a flat stomach and she had hips, large.

MS THABETHE: You say she was a bit taller than you?  Do you know how tall you are?  What is your height?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I don't know how tall I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, Mrs Dludla, would you mind just standing up, perhaps we can see, I didn't notice you when you were standing up.
	Ms Thabethe, do you mind standing up?  Yes, Mrs Dludla is a good half a head shorter than Ms Thabethe, although I must say I cannot see what sort of shoes they are wearing, but as they are standing here.

MS THABETHE: She is wearing flat shoes.

CHAIRPERSON: Flat shoes and Mrs Dludla, with respect, Mrs Dludla, that you are quite short.

MS THABETHE: Yes.  I can take off my shoes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now it is a third of a head, the difference, thank you.

MS THABETHE: Mrs Dludla, you have indicated that she was a bit taller than you, would you say she was my height approximately?  Would you say she was taller than me or shorter than me?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Almost your height, because she wasn't that much taller than me, but she was a little bit taller.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MR LAX: Sorry, just one thing, how well did you know her?  Were you friends, were you neighbours, did you know her casually, did you know her very well, how well did you know her and for how long?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: We have been friendly for a long time.  She was married and she was staying at eSikhawini, we were still friends and we used to visit each other.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mrs Dludla, what is your address where you stayed in April to May 1987?  Was it 921 Ndlondlo Street?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.  It is not Ndlondlo, it is Ndondakusuka Street.

MS THABETHE: Spelt ...

MR LAX: Carry on Ms Interpreter.

INTERPRETER: N-d-o-n-d-a-k-u-s-u-k-a.

MR VISSER: And did Ms Kubheka live in the same street?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: At 923?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Why I am asking you is that there is some evidence that at the time of her disappearance, she was living with her mother?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, she was.

MR VISSER: Was that at this place, at 923 Ndondakusuka Street?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did her husband live at this address with her before?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, the husband was staying at eSikhawini.

MR VISSER: Is it your evidence that Ms Kubheka lived in eSikhawini and that she at some point in time, came to kwaMashu to live with her mother at 923 Ndondakusuka Street?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can you remember when that happened, when she moved to kwaMashu?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I cannot remember.

MR VISSER: Well, can you give us some sort of idea, was it years before the date when she disappeared or was it a question of a few months before that time, or a few weeks?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: After months, even though I do not remember how many months.

MR VISSER: After months?  And you say you knew here beforehand when she was living with her husband at eSikhawini?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: How is it that you knew here there, how did that happen, when she lived at eSikhawini?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: As I explained she only moved to eSikhawini after she got married, before she got married, she was staying at kwaMashu.

MR VISSER: Alright, so you were friends before she moved to eSikhawini, is that what you are saying?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: How long before she disappeared was that, can you remember more or less?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I don't remember the month, but all I know is that she disappeared and two to three weeks passed, and then there was a June vacation.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright, it does not matter.  You see why I am asking you about her mother is in Bundle 2, at page 94 there is a statement, perhaps you should just look at it, page 94 to 96 and 97 to 98.  Are those statements which you  made and signed?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I am not hearing any answer.

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  You see at page 94, it is recorded here, well, first of all, let's just establish the person that you made the statement to, was that Mr Holmes?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, I do remember giving someone my statement, even though I don't remember his name or last name.

MR VISSER: Alright.  It is recorded at page 94 that you said that Ntombi lived at that address, 923, alone with her daughter in that house.  Is that incorrect?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: It is correct.

MR VISSER: So her mother didn't live there as well?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She was staying there.

MR VISSER: I am sorry Chairperson, I was being unfair to the witness, I beg your pardon, I have just noticed at the bottom of that page, you actually say so, I do apologise, Mrs Dludla.
	You see, I want  to come to this clothes issue.  First you tell the Committee today that you cannot remember from your own memory what clothes she wore on the day she disappeared, but you said that later when you were shown a dress, you recognised that as a dress of Kubheka, is that correct?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you recognise it as a dress of Kubheka, or did you recognise it as the dress which she wore on that day of her disappearance?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I recognised it as the dress she was wearing on the day when she disappeared.

MR VISSER: Why did, seeing, had you seen that dress before the day she disappeared?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I have seen it before.

MR VISSER: And have you seen her wear that dress before the day she disappeared?

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, can I request maybe that she repeats, because it is ambiguous, the answer that she gave.

CHAIRPERSON: What?

MS THABETHE: She, in Zulu she said it is only after seeing the dress that she recognised that it is Ntombi's dress, it doesn't necessarily say she had seen it before.  Maybe if there can be clarification.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can just repeat the question, Mr Visser, please.

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly Chairperson.   Had you ever seen that dress before the day that she disappeared?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: When you saw that dress before that time, was it when Ms Kubheka was wearing it  or did you see it in her cupboard?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: It was her dress, and she used to wear it.

MR VISSER: How did she normally wear that dress, alone or together with other articles of clothing?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: In summer she will wear that dress alone, but since this was towards winter, that is why she had worn a poloneck, and I do remember seeing the poloneck underneath the dress.

MR VISSER: Yes, you see, that is the other thing I wanted to ask you because you said you didn't remember what she was wearing, but you recognised the dress as the one she was wearing on that day, and then yet, you now remember that she was wearing a poloneck T-shirt, skipper or jersey on the same day?  How is that possible?