Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, to continue on page...
1b ANSWER: /...
MR DU PLESSIS 567 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: I don't know exactly at what date he retiredChair.

JUDGE WILSON: : What year, approximately can you say, howlong was he there?

ANSWER: He would probably have been there for about twoyears, but I cannot remember.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman I know this is a strange wayof introducing evidence, but my instructions are that part ofthe reason why he was transferred and why he went out of the forcewas as a result of the Parson's Commission and the report of theParson's Commission in respect of what happened at Kwandabele.  The one date that my one client has mentioned here is 1988,but that's an unverified date.

JUDGE NGCOBE: The Parson's Commission in fact found thathe had acted irregularly in many respects, Brigadier Lerm.

ANSWER: That is the case, he was also charged to appearbefore that Commission.
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, just to make it entirely clear,you retired in 1987?

ANSWER: In June 1987 I had an operation, I stayed offsick until the end of 1987.

<UNKNOWN>: So you were no longer actively involved afterthat date and you would with difficulty be able to remember exactlysubsequent to that?

ANSWER: No, after that I have difficulty rememberingwhat occurred.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier could you page to page 247, I can'tbe serious my apologies, it's not 247 I want to refer you to page126 from the paragraph "in daardie tyd", that's thethird paragraph.
2. ANSWER: /...
MR DU PLESSIS 568 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: "In that time, the chief strategy of the ANCand PAC was to make the country, and in particular Kwandabele,ungovernable by means of unrest, arson, attacks with hand grenadesand other arms, public violence, school boycotts and strikes.  Mr Pete Ntuli, with the assistance of an organisation knownas the Mbkhoto, acted in an intense and aggressive manner to participatein this process.   Although Mr Ntuli was not known as an ANC supporterand although his organisation claimed to be opposed to the ANC,I had to take into account the following facts; Kwandabele wasturned into a boiling-pot of violence by ANC and PAC activists,their purpose was to make the country entirely ungovernable andthis purpose they largely achieved."
MR ?:: Mr Du Plessis the particulars in this applicationwere confirmed under oath by the witnesses.   What would yourview be, would these written materials be part of the applicationthat we have to act or must it all be repeated verbally?

MR DU PLESSIS: : The reason why I draw attention to certainfactors Mr Chairman is the fact that in respect of each incidentafter the general motivation of eliminations etc., there comesa specific motivation in respect of that specific deed and thatis why I draw attention to that every time.   In this instancehe has testified about that so, a final question, Judge Wilsonasked you a question, this was with regard to the ANC and a particularquote of Chris Hani which you read yesterday, in which he claimedthat an MK unit had been responsible for the death of Pete Ntuli.
2. Could /...
MR DU PLESSIS 569 J H CRONJE
Could you comment on this?

ANSWER: We were aware of this claim by the ANC but ofcourse this suited us, we wanted to leave the impression thatthe ANC had been responsible for the death of Pete Ntuli and forthis particular incident.

<UNKNOWN>: It would have suited the purposes of the Governmentthat they did not have to eliminate their own man, or apparentlytheir own man?

ANSWER: Yes indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, there had never been any admissionon the part of the Government that you were responsible for thedeath of Pete Ntuli, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is indeed correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, I think it was fairly known andobvious during that time that during the operation of Mbkhotothat Kwandabele was highly destabilised but isn't it so that ingoing about doing his business in the way that he was doing, PeteNtuli was in fact trying to strengthen the Kwandabele Governmentand drive it towards independence?

ANSWER: Mr Chair, Pete Ntuli with his Mbkhoto in actualfact did the ANC's work for it.   He could not at that stage havebeen working for the Kwandabele Government.   I felt, and it wasmy honest opinion, that Pete Ntuli was directly opposed to independenceand the Kwandabele Government.

<UNKNOWN>: If the media, if things which were reportedin the media about what he was doing, if those things were correct,there is no doubt that he was sowing havoc in Kwandabele.   Thedestabilisation that he brought about didn't he do that unwittingly,it may be that he achieved
2. precisely /...
MR MPSHE 570 J H CRONJE
precisely what, as you say the ANC would have wanted, namely destabilisation,but the way I understand Mr Ntuli's activities would be that heachieved in a rather unwitting manner destabilisation.   Yourevidence tends to suggest that he deliberately wanted to achievethe same results as the ANC, do you understand my question?

ANSWER: Whether he intended it Mr Chair I don't know,but it definitely created the impression with me and the Governmentthat he was destabilising the whole area for his own purposes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now don't you deal differently with a personwho unwittingly, unwisely, foolishly, causes destabilisation asopposed to a person who like an ANC person deliberately bringsabout destabilisation?   Why didn't you re-educate him or educatehim properly and call him in, he was on the South African Governmentand say to him don't do this because you see you achieve the resultsof the ANC, rather than eliminating him, this is the point I'mtrying to make?

ANSWER: Pete Ntuli was a member of Cabinet and it wouldcertainly have been the duty of Government to do that, I couldnot go and speak to Ntuli in that way.

<UNKNOWN>: But yes, you might have but would it not havebeen within your task to, as a solution, to suggest and say thatinstead of eliminating him let him be dealt with in this way?

ANSWER: That is why I suggested Pete Ntuli's detentionin accordance with security legislation, I wanted to withdrawhim from society in that way but Government did not want to dothat.   I think in reports about his involvement and I certainlythought that if Government thought it necessary, they would havespoken to him about it.
2. JUDGE /...
MR MPSHE 571 J H CRONJE

JUDGE WILSON: : I don't know as much about this man asmy Brothers on the Bench but do I understand from you that hewas regarded by the public as the South African Government's man?

ANSWER: He did give himself out to be that Mr Chair,he did pretend to be working for the Government.

JUDGE WILSON: : He continued the violent actions, arson,school boycotts and what have you, giving out that he was workingfor the South African Government?

ANSWER: He did pretend that because he was in Cabinet,he definitely pretended that.

JUDGE WILSON: : There's a difference isn't there betweenbeing a member of the Kwandabele Cabinet and working for the SouthAfrican Government?   Did he pretend that he was more than merelya Cabinet Minister, that he had connections with the South AfricanGovernment?

ANSWER: Can I put it in this way, if a member of Cabinetof Kwandabele he was also working for the South African Government.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Mr Cronje wasn't it common knowledge thatprominent members of Mbkhoto were in Government and consistedof prominent members of Parliament in Kwandabele?

ANSWER: I don't know anything about that.   I know thatsome of the business people were members of Mbkhoto.

CHAIRPERSON: The impression I got from your evidence wasthat at first Mbkhoto did appear to be an organisation that workedwell with the Government?