Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

MR HATTINGH: In your supplementary statement which we find on page 151 and further and in particular on page 152, under paragraph (c)(4), it is stated that the background statement submitted with my application, and expanded upon in the document headed Brief Historical Background, do those other two documents in fact form part of your application?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Would you please refer me to something really tangible on this page, I do not understand what you are talking about.

MR HATTINGH: Do you understand or are you able to read English?

PELELE L SHONGWE: As I have indicated, I don't know English quite well, yes, I do try.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen, it seems your Attorneys in their wisdom drafted two documents relating to the history of these applications and the incidents for which these applications are made.  Do you understand?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: In your form of application, one or both of these documents have been referred to.
	Do you understand that?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I do understand now.

CHAIRPERSON: All that the Advocate is asking or let me ask you this before that, do you know what the contents of these two documents are?

PELELE L SHONGWE: No.  Perhaps if you could give me a chance so that I could peruse through this.  I wouldn't say I know it, maybe I do, but then I would be in a position to say once given a chance to peruse through this document.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, does anything much turn on this issue or do we need him to read it?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, not so much on the background statement as the two statements from pages 5 to I believe approximately page 20, the two statements.  Not much turn on that, but I think we should get some clarity as to what comprises his application for amnesty.
	At this stage it would appear that we have ...

CHAIRPERSON: If he is given an opportunity to read it now and he comes to tell us, then we know.  I see it is quarter past four now and I am trying to finish this witness, hence I ask if anything, a big issue turns on this.
	If you tell me yes, then I would have to give him a chance to read it.  If it is just a mundane question, not relating to anything major, then maybe you can tell me.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no, I believe we can carry on without having him necessarily have to read those other two documents.
	I think my next question would then perhaps show whether we need to allow him the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see then.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Shongwe, the document that we find on page 151, 152, 153 and 154, have you seen this document before?

PELELE L SHONGWE: As I have explained, I would like to be granted an opportunity to look through this document, after which I will be in the position to say whether I know it or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he sign this Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long ago did he sign it?

MR PATEL: I am under correction, it might have been Tuesday or Wednesday last week.

CHAIRPERSON: Last week.  Mr Shongwe, you signed a document because your Attorney came to show you this document maybe Tuesday or Wednesday last week, do you remember?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a supplementary statement to your application?  Do you recall?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I do remember Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you signed it?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the document the Advocate is talking about.

PELELE L SHONGWE: As I have explained, the manner in which we signed it was in a haste, and therefore I didn't have a chance to read through it.  My lawyer made me sign this, he didn't give me a chance to look through the document, because we were in a hurry.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would prefer that we finish with this witness today, but perhaps it would be necessary for him just to confirm at least the supplementary statement, that he understands the contents thereof.
	I did not foresee that we would run into a problem of this kind at this late stage.

CHAIRPERSON: In the statement that you signed, you say that the offences, acts and omissions in respect of which I claim amnesty, are detailed in the document headed Schedule Detailing Offences for which Amnesty is Claimed.
	You have already confirmed that, I can't see that being a problem.

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then it goes on to the circumstances and events giving rise to such offences are detailed in the background statement submitted with my application and expanded upon in the document headed Brief Historical Background.  Those are the two documents you find on page 5 to page 20.  Do you understand that?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what concerns you Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I think all that I would like to know is if in his own mind, he wants to make pages 5 to 20 part of his application or not.  At this stage it would appear he doesn't know about the other documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I am going to make it as easy as possible for him.  It depends on what questions flow out of it, then maybe you must give him an opportunity to read it then.
	Mr Shongwe, these two documents have been drafted by the Attorney with the help of this broad Committee that we have been speaking about all the time.  In so far as these two documents relate to you, is it your intention to have it part of your application, because that is what your supplementary application says?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There you have the answer Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if that is the position, then I suppose we should allow him the opportunity of having a look at those papers, those documents which he would like to make part of his application?
	I am not going to be very much longer with this witness, this applicant, so if we leave it until tomorrow, we can within ...

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, that is why I asked you what is the point that you are leading up to, I am not too sure what it is.  Is it going to make a big impact or don't you know yet?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, perhaps I should just carry on and see where we are going to.
	Mr Shongwe, you completed the original application form yourself, correct?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: In your own handwriting?

PELELE L SHONGWE: No, that is not correct.  I didn't use my own handwriting.  I was talking and my lawyer was doing the writing.

MR HATTINGH: Were you given the opportunity of reading the application form and making sure that everything was correct before signing it?

PELELE L SHONGWE: As I have explained that I signed this document here in a haste.  I don't know whether you are talking about a different statement, apart from this one.  I do not follow you now.

MR HATTINGH: I am referring to page 149 - on page 6 of the application form, where we find a signature.  Perhaps you can just tell us whether it is your signature.

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, that is my signature.

MR HATTINGH: Now if you have a look at page 150, that is page 7 of your application form, it would appear that this document was signed and confirmed on - sometime in May 1997 before a Commissioner of Oaths, a certain Radebe, in Rooihuiskraal?

PELELE L SHONGWE: As far as I see, when we finished discussing this with our lawyers at our offices, it became necessary that we have somebody to conduct the oath.
	We couldn't find him.  I don't know this Radebe.  My lawyer therefore then went looking for this Radebe for the signature.

MR HATTINGH: So you were not present, you never saw Mr Radebe and you did not sign this application form before a Commissioner of Oaths?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I don't know Mr Radebe.  I think that maybe my lawyers were trying to facilitate my application, because I am not here most of the time, I am at the Army.