Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, my brother contacted me and said that the Attorney General's Special Investigation Team was looking for me and that they could not find me, and gave me ...

MR VISSER: Just go a little slower, there is nothing to rush you, just go slower, yes.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: And gave me a telephone number to call which was that of Captain Holmes.

MR VISSER: Captain Holmes?  Yes, did you call him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I called him and they asked me to come into the office because they had some questions to ask me about incidents.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did you go?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Under extreme stress, yes, I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What transpired there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was confronted by Captain Holmes, I think it was Brigadier Human and one or two other people and I was confronted with the statement made by Steve Bosch, with regard to the Bhila incident.

MR VISSER: Was that the witness that gave evidence yesterday?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: How do you mean you were confronted with that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was confronted with that in the fashion that it was put in front of me and said, we already know what has happened, you might as well cooperate with us.
	If you don't cooperate, we are going to arrest you.

MR VISSER: Arrest you for what?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: For the murder of Bhila.

MR VISSER: I see.   Was the contents of Mr Bosch's affidavit then conveyed to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: In broad outlines, yes.

MR VISSER: Would that have been in what sense, in the sense that it would be read to you that Mr Bosch says this, what do you say about that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Very much so.  Captain Holmes would say Mr Bosch says X, Y and Z, what do you say about that.

MR VISSER: Yes, so indeed in your affidavit you dealt with issues even if it was merely to say I can't remember that, whatever the case may be, and we will come to that in a moment.
	All right, from Annexure B it would appear that you were in Durban in 1987, between the 10th of February and the 27th of February, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: That is the third paragraph on page 1 Mr Chairman.  I don't know whether your pages have been paginated, I hope they have.  It is from page 1 - 7.  I do apologise Mr Chairman.
	The last paragraph, the second last paragraph states that this is a Section 204 affidavit and it says, this affidavit says, what I am going to point out later, might not be used against me as evidence in a court, for what that is worth.
	Then at page 2, I wish to address your attention to.  You were now clearly asked about Frank McCarter and Steve Bosch in the first paragraph, you deal with that, and then I want to come to the third paragraph where you say first of all that the group was sent by Major De Kock to go for that period which you referred to, to Natal.  
	We heard here yesterday from Exhibit D, that there will be evidence that Major De Kock was in fact on leave at the time, and this is supported, that is the second page Mr Chairman, second paragraph, in fact it is numbered paragraph 5 of Ramatala's evidence in E, I said D, it is E, Exhibit E.  It is the second page, paragraph 5.  He refers to the use of motorcars which to his mind, supports his statement that Mr De Kock was on leave, so first of all, let me ask you this, are you clear in your mind, and can you positively state that you were sent to Durban by De Kock?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot positively state that Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you simply assume that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I assume that, because Mr De Kock would normally task us.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  Al l right, now let's just go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, you obviously had experienced this before.  Is the position that requests would be made to Major De Kock, was he then, from police officers elsewhere in the country, for assistance on routine matters and a group of you would be sent from Vlakplaas to the area to assist the officer in charge?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And whilst in that area, you would be responsible to the officer in charge of that area and report to him, and take instructions from him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, with feedback to Major De Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a feedback to Major De Kock, he was told what you were doing?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is right.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Except that in this case, apparently Major De Kock says that he knew absolutely nothing about it, and which might be another point supporting the contention that he was on leave at the time.
	In any event, you don't know what happened in this particular case as far as reporting to Major De Kock was concerned?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I have no direct knowledge of that.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just ask then, on what basis are you, do you say that you have knowledge that there was reporting back to Major De Kock.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I said from my previous experience with the units, working in different areas, I know that there were reports given back to Major De Kock on our activities, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Did you personally report to him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I did not.

MR MALAN: So, how would you know that others did?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Because I would be with the person in charge of the unit, either when they were speaking to him telephonically or whatever the case may be.

MR MALAN: And in this instance, you have no recollection of any feedback?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman and Mr Malan.  Just to go back to the question of the Chairman, there will be evidence later from other applicants in the other incidents, but is it your recollection that Major Andy Taylor at the time, was the Commanding Officer if you will, of the Terrorist Desk, Section?  Let me repeat that, of the Anti-Terrorist Section - a tongue twister - in Durban?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would he then have been the one to request a squad from Vlakplaas if he needed assistance in the monitoring and pointing out of suspected terrorists which may have infiltrated into the area?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And would he then have been the person from whom you would have, your squad or your squad leader would have taken his instructions?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is also correct.

MR VISSER: Your previous evidence was that Mr Wasserman was the person who normally briefed you in that situation, on the facts, all right, now we understand.
	Now, coming to the discussion which is at the bottom of page 2.

MR MALAN: Mr Visser, just before you proceed there, in the same paragraph which you have covered now, the second part of it, Mr Rosslee states from time to time we received instructions from Major Taylor.  These instructions were discussed with Major De Kock beforehand, in order to gain his approval before we did any acts.
	Can Mr Rosslee tell us if in this case, whether did Major De Kock while he was on leave, or whoever was acting in his place, was he contacted in order to get approval?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no recollection of getting approval from anybody on the farm for this specific incident Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Why did you then - I am sorry - would you then please explain why you said so in this affidavit, because it appears that you might be referring to this particular incident, rather than speaking generally, does it not?