Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.
	Mr Nortje, just one question.  Do you know anything about an aborted or a failed attempt to collect ANC members between the 8th and the 12th of June?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, the reason why I wouldn't know about that is because at that stage I was - I also didn't hear about it on the day of the operation or after the 12th, I was with C2, I was involved with something else, I didn't have access to that sort of information.  They also wouldn't have told me about it because we were not working with the operational persons.

ADV GCABASHE: Then one other question.  Mr Manzini, in his Section 29 hearing, appears to think that he was shown the place where he had to go to, the day before the incident itself.  Would you know anything about the pointing out and the preparations taking two days instead of just one day?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, I don't about it, I only know that on the day that we arrived there the point was indicated to him where we would be that night.  It may have happened, but I don't know.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, do you have any questions?

MR MALAN: Mr Nortje, in bundle 6 we have the Section 29 transcription of the evidence of Manzini and we have the information that Ms Gcabashe refers to.  Manzini refers very clearly to an abortive incident, he indicates that it may have taken place on the Friday initially and he alleges that Theron took him out to see the place and there is evidence that he went to pick up people, that there was nobody, that he stopped on the right side of the road at the point where the vehicle was to come to a standstill and that there was no-one.  He was only shown once where the place was, which would indicate that this does not concur with your evidence that your recollection indicates that you were with him when the place was indicated to him.  Do you have anything to say about that?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: As I recall it we went to the scene that afternoon to see where we would set up the ambush, that is what I recall.  I recall that Manzini accompanied us so that we could give him the final plans there.  That is what I recall.

MR MALAN: And who accompanied you to the scene, was it you, de Kock?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Mr de Kock would have gone with ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, I'm not asking who would have gone with, I want to know if you can remember who went with.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I'm not certain, I cannot name any names.  It would have been the people who were there with us.

MR MALAN: Well why do you remember Manzini if you don't remember any of the others?  Could you be mistaken?  Isn't it probable that you are mistaken, why would they show Manzini the place twice?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: It is possible, but that is how I recall it.

MR MALAN: Very well.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask you on the same point, Mr Theron also said he went to show Mr Manzini the spot.  Would you recall if he was there?  Mr Theron.  You can't place him either.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I cannot recall him specifically.

ADV GCABASHE: But in any event, Mr Manzini was the only black member who was involved with you at that time?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: As far as I know yes, there were not any others.

ADV GCABASHE: And there is certainly a time, in respect of this incident, that you were in his company and showing him the spot that he needed to know about?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is what I recall, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nortje, you would have heard the evidence of some of the applicants, that there was or they were under the strong impression or convinced that a bullet hit the tar on the tar road between them and the vehicle towards which they were running.  Could that have happened, from what you saw?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: If you ask me, I think it was one of their own people who shot there in the road when they approached.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, Chair, I missed another aspect that I wanted to canvass.
	Mr Nortje, you said that the person in the front on the left, you saw the door going open and that Mr de Kock fired a shot.  You say that his feet had not reached the ground.  In other words he had not yet climbed out, and Mr de Kock fired at him immediately, but your evidence is that he was found next to the vehicle, dead.  How did that happen, wouldn't he have been killed in his seat and fallen to the inside instead of the outside?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: After the shooting he lay outside the vehicle on the ground, so it must have happened during the shooting that he fell out.  But when he shot him he didn't fire back, so he must have died instantly or have been seriously wounded, but that's when the shooting took place and when we stopped shooting he lay next to the vehicle.

MR MALAN: If such a great number of shots are fired at a person, wouldn't you expect him to fall over in the direction of the bullet, instead of falling in the converse direction?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Well maybe he had it in mind to get out of the vehicle, if he was not yet dead.

MR MALAN: To climb out in the direction of the man who was shooting him, who was about a metre to two metres away from him?  That sounds improbable and that's why I'm putting it to you, because it doesn't really concur with the observations of the others, that he climbed out much further than what you recall.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, he collapsed directly next to the wheel where he climbed out.

MR MALAN: Very well, thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising?  Thank you, Mr Nortje, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's now ten past one.  This would be a convenient stage to take the lunch adjournment ...(intervention)

MS LOCKHAT: If I may just interrupt you, Chairperson, that concludes the roll in terms of the applicants, Chairperson.  Adv Moerane does have a witness, who will be called tomorrow, Chairperson.  So I suggest that we hold, that we postpone until tomorrow, that we adjourn until tomorrow, Chairperson, but I shall leave it in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder, we'll have to make some arrangements about tomorrow, as to when we'll be sitting.  I
know certain people have to catch aeroplanes, etc.  Could we just have a short adjournment now, I'd just like to speak to the legal representatives in the office and then we'll come back and make an announcement as to whether or not we're postponing now until tomorrow, or whether we'll carry on today.

MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, I apologise for the delay that has occurred in this matter, but we've reached a stage in the hearing where we are awaiting the advices of a legal representative as to what the next step will be.  The legal representative concerned has not had the opportunity yet I am told, to properly consult with his client.
	We, since lunch have been waiting in the expectation that this would happen each next minute, but it hasn't and time has passed us now, it's almost 4 o'clock.  So I think whatever happens now, we've arrived at that time of the day where we would have to in any event adjourn until tomorrow.  The expected consultation I'm told, has not taken place yet.  So in the circumstances, all that we can do is to postpone until 9 o'clock tomorrow.  
	I apologise for the inconvenience that has been caused and I hope we'll know at 9 o'clock what he position is, whether we will be proceeding with further evidence or whatever will occur tomorrow, I don't know, I can't say at this stage until I get further advised.  So I apologise for the inconvenience and having us all waiting here in vain this afternoon, but unfortunately that is the situation.  So we will then just have to adjourn until nine tomorrow morning at this venue.  Thank you.