Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson what I can say is that the community of Esikoweni and surroundings I request from them for forgiveness for what I did to them. And it should be a lesson to the youth that they should not be used by people who were more intelligent than us. Because all these incidents that I have mentioned I was brought by people here. I did not know Esikoweni. I did not know the people of Esikoweni, not even one person. But because political leaders managed to exploit us in an improper manner it was in that fashion that one got involved in such activities. Therefore I request the community of Esikoweni to forgive me for what I did to them. But it should also be a lesson to the youth that it should not fall into the same trap that we did. Thank you Chairperson.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini there you and your colleagues have over these last ten days mentioned many high up people and leaders who you say gave you instructions and influenced you to do these things. And today they are denying it and washing their hands of you. How does that make you feel?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I will say that it is painful to me that after all these activities that we committed that people should deny our existence and call us criminals. When I went for training at Caprivi nobody called me a criminal. When I killed people here I was not called a criminal. Today they do call us criminals and deny knowledge of our activities and ourselves. No IFP leader is prepared to stand before the commission and admit to these activities. We decided amongst ourselves to expose these activities. We in fact were not mad persons who just took weapons and started shooting people at random. Therefore it hurts me very much for the IFP to desert us and say that they do not know anything about us. When they know in fact that they were in fact responsible for all these things. They transported me. I think that the youth will also learn a valuable lesson from us that they do not get into the same trap as we did. Thank you Chairperson.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Wills do you have any questions to put the witness?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini it is apparent from your evidence like those applicants I represent that you have been involved in numerous attacks in Esikoweni area. Is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now the applicants whom I represent are adamant that at no stage was Mrs Mbuyazi's car ever used in an attack. Can you comment on that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson I will say that is true because it should be remembered that those statements were written over a long period. We mentioned a lot of things in those statements and mistakes were committed. We did not use Mr Mbuyazi's car but Mr Biyela's in carrying out our activities.

MR WILLS: Particularly with reference to your incident two and three if you can just bear with me members of the committee? Yes sorry, specifically your incident number two that there is a possibility then that you were in fact using the kombi? It is page 393. A white kombi that was bought from Mr Seli.

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I am still checking.

MR WILLS: Sorry page 393. Your paragraph 42 incident number 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini have your pages got the?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Page 393? Yes it is there.

MR WILLS: Mr Dlamini my question was is it not possible that when you report that you used Mrs Mbuyazi's car in incident number two (2) that you could have in fact been in the white kombi? But possibly I should explain Mr Dlamini that my client, the applicants I represent have the same problem as you. They also admit that they were involved in a lot of incidents. So they are not saying here that you are necessarily wrong except they are adamant about Mrs Mbuyazi's car. They say that the only cars that they used in attacks, well the cars in the main that they used in the attacks were the white kombi and the mayor's car. But what they are saying is, is it not a possibility that this incident you are referring to you were using the white kombi?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I have mentioned that we mentioned a lot of activities when we wrote those statements. I could have made a mistake. They are right, we did not use Mrs Mbuyazi's car much. I think I mentioned it by mistake.

MR WILLS: Mr Dlamini another thing that concerns my clients which all of them are adamant about and that concerns your incident number one (1). Now they all say, and that is Mkhize and Hlongwane, you do not mention Mr Mbambo in this incident. But Mkhize and Hlongwane are adamant that they didn't get involved in the attack on Paul NGema's shebeen. And in fact Mr Mbambo tells us that he knew about the attacks on certain shebeens and that he was implicated in the sense that he supplied the weapons. But in the main the persons who were utilised in those attacks were Nkanalipo Mathengua, Ben Malambo, Sibongo Mbuyazi and Lucky Mbuyazi. Now again my question is this, is it not possible that when you referred to this incident that it could have been those younger boys who were with you on this attack and not Mkhize and Hlongwane?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson there are a lot of activities that went on at Esikoweni. But I would say I do not remember clearly well the people I was with in this particular incident. Because there were a lot of operations that we carried out together with Nthena and Romeo because there were a lot of operations that I carried out in their company. It could be that I mentioned them because I was with them on a lat of operations.

MR WILLS: No further questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Ngubane do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I do. Mr Dlamini you attended school, what is the highest standard that you obtained at school?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Standard eight.

MR NGUBANE: When did you finish school?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I left in the middle of the year when I went to train at Caprivi.

MR NGUBANE: Well what year was it when you left school?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Around 1985.

SISI KHAMPEPE: (...indistinct) Mr Ngubane, Mr Dlamini when in your affidavit you state that you have completed standard eight, that is what you say in your affidavit and you go on to say that you have completed you standard eight in 1984 would you have been mistaken?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I completed standard eight. Thereafter I could not proceed to standard nine because I had to go join the KwaZulu police force.

SISI KHAMPEPE: (...indistinct) misunderstood Mr Ngubane. Because Mr Ngubane wanted to know what standard you had obtained and you said standard eight but that you had not completed standard eight because you had to go to the recruitment by Mr (...indistinct). Maybe I did not understand.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, sorry if I can just. My understanding of the witnesses answer was that he completed standard eight in 1984 and then thereafter he was in school proceeding to the next standard and it was then when his schooling was interrupted. So he had done some schooling after standard eight but had not completed any standard.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you if that was what, maybe I did not get his (...indistinct) Thank you for that correction.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Now Mr Dlamini were you taken directly from school to go to Caprivi for training?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I explained that I was a prominent member of the youth league at Mpumalanga. I was not removed from school directly. They discussed the matter with me and I agreed that I would join them.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) mean is not that you were physically removed from class. What I mean is were you still attending school when you were recruited to this group that was going to be trained at Caprivi?