Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: Not really perjury.  You know, people can say: "I've seen somebody", you can see even in the statement somebody said: "I saw some people that looked like them because I once saw them addressing the meeting".
	It's not somebody who knows these people, it's only Mrs Jacobs who knew these people who said: "Mr Hashe was even reading a newspaper at the police station" you know, let me help you that ...[indistinct]  And then there's a man in the whole thing that you deliberately not pointed out, who came nearer to my version.  
	This man was an employee, I don't have his name here, he was an employee of the airport of Port Elizabeth who claims that he saw these people coming at half past seven and he saw a group of white policemen, I think the - the attorney put that this is the man.  He says he saw a group of policemen, white policemen and a black policeman at night.  
	That was not written today, it was written a long time ago, this thing, 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay Mr Mamasela, you have made your point, thank you.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: I'm sorry to interrupt.  Mr Chairman, I understand that Captain de Lange is here and an undertaking was given to him that if he arrived he could be interposed for the purpose of cross-examination by the applicants' representatives.  He's very anxious to be heard so that he can get back to official duties in Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we could only interpose him only after Mr Lamey has finished putting questions to the witness.

MR BRINK: Can Mr Lamey indicate how long expects to be?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he's not going to be long.

MR LAMEY: No, I'm not going to be long.
	Mr Mamasela, was any sack placed over Mr Godolozi's head at a certain stage during his assault?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it was at the police station, there were no sacks there, there was nothing.  It was not the normal police interrogation, you know the brutal interrogation.

MR LAMEY: To such an extent that he suffocated, you deny that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, he did not suffocate from a sack, there was no sack used there.  It's just somebody else's figment of fatal imagination.

MR LAMEY: So, that is the figment of the imagination of Mr Mogoai?

JOE MAMASELA: Most probably yes, if he's the one who comes with that version.

MR LAMEY: Now can you think of any reason why Mr Mogoai would also describe quite serious and vicious assaults on Mr Hashe and Mr Godolozi by, at a time, which assaults are denied by the Port Elizabeth people and what his motive for that would be?

JOE MAMASELA: Piet Mogoai, last week Tuesday I was with him near the offices of his lawyer and he told me that his lawyers wanted him to come here to come and lie and to come and discredit me.

MR LAMEY: Oh?

JOE MAMASELA: I was with him last week Tuesday at 10a.m.

MR LAMEY: Oh, I see.

JOE MAMASELA: And Piet Mogoai told me that he will blatantly refuse, that I'm not surprised that Piet Mogoai is not here.

MR LAMEY: Oh, I see.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And how did it happen that you met him Mr Mamasela?

JOE MAMASELA: You can check the records, I had an appointment with the Attorney General which I made two weeks before and the Attorney General told me that he'll only be available for me on Tuesday at about 10 o'clock.  I went to see the Attorney General at about half past ten, when I came out - the office of his attorneys are next to the Attorney General, somebody screamed at me and said: "Joe, Joe, Joe" and when I looked out it was Piet Mogoai with blue overalls.

MR LAMEY: Is that the only motive that you can think of?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I don't think of any motive, I'm stating a fact not a motive, not a perception.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, I want to put it to you that what Mr Mogoai has said in this Committee he has also stated in his affidavit to the Attorney General.

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not surprised, just look at the date when he did decide to go to the Attorney General, maybe we'll get a clear picture.  And if you look at the facts, the records, when did Mamasela come out with the truth alone.

MR LAMEY: Now I want to come back Mr Mamasela, to another aspect which your version differs vastly from that of Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole and that is with regard to the events at the airport.
	Am I correct in that you stated that, in your affidavit that:
"Upon arrival of the PEBCO 3 at the airport Mr Godolozi and Mr Galela got out of the vehicle"

JOE MAMASELA: That's a fact and it's true.

MR LAMEY: Now where did this vehicle of theirs stop?

JOE MAMASELA: I've indicated that they stopped on the pedestrian crossing just opposite the, almost opposite the doors of the airport, the main entrance.  And our vehicle was parked next to the entrance door.  So when they stopped there they had to come and jump over the main road and pass our vehicle in front.  So as they came we saw them and we quickly intercepted them before they could enter the entrance of the airport.

MR LAMEY: Did you wait for them to proceed towards the entrance of the airport?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, because it was going to be foolhardy exercise to try to intercept them when they were coming because they will run away and lose us.  So we waited for them to be nearer our bus so that we can grab them.

MR LAMEY: So your intention was just to grab them.

JOE MAMASELA: To abduct them and take them away.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And why did you produce your appointing certificate?

JOE MAMASELA: No, just to neutralise them, just to make them not to be afraid because we were not wearing uniforms, so if we produced our appointment certificates a man relaxes, he thinks he's safe, he's in the hands of the police, that was the ruse.

MR LAMEY: And if that is so, why do you state in your affidavit that you had to grab them and put them quickly into the minibus?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, so that other people, other people mustn't see what is happening.  We were afraid to cause unnecessary attention, that was the intention.

MR LAMEY: But that is what I don't understand.  If you were afraid to cause unnecessary attention, why do you wait for them to proceed to the entrance of the airport building and produce police appointing certificates which will connect the police to their abduction?

JOE MAMASELA: Who will connect that to the abduction?  When somebody is near you, you point your "aanstelling" and you quickly grab him and you know he's going to die, who will identify you, that you are Mr so and so, a policeman?

MR LAMEY: And while you were doing that, what was the third person doing?

JOE MAMASELA: The third person, I told this Commission on numerous occasions and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The third person went to go and park the vehicle.

JOE MAMASELA: To park the car, yes.

MR LAMEY: How far from the place where you abducted the other two?

JOE MAMASELA: I didn't take the measurement but I would say plus minus 15 to 20 metres.

MR LAMEY: And I take it that your evidence is that Mr Hashe who was parking the vehicle didn't witness this, that his other two fellow PEBCO 3 members are now grabbed by someone else?

JOE MAMASELA: How could he witness that?  It was at night on the 8th of May, it was dark and he was busy manoeuvring his vehicle, looking for parking.  How can he possibly see what was happening behind the kombi of ours?  It was impossible ...[indistinct] for him to have seen anything.

MR LAMEY: And after this you took time to search the two people that you have now put into the minibus before proceeding to grab Mr Hashe?

JOE MAMASELA: Search is one word that suits you.  I will say I frisked them, I quickly frisked them.  You know there is a difference between search and frisk.

MR LAMEY: Why couldn't that be left over to the other ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt but hasn't this been covered in detail by cross-examination on Monday on Tuesday?