Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR DREYER: You do not strike me as a person with a problem, with a language problem and I always through the Afrikaans word "bysaak" means that I have a primary goal, but the other things going along with this, but - or do you understand this differently?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, I am putting it quite clearly about what was going on, we are getting technical now about language.
	I am saying it here and I am saying this to the Commission, we went out and there was consensus, to kill people.  I do not know why you want to send this in another direction sir.

MR DREYER: I want to send this in another direction, that is the task of cross-questioning.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I was there, you were not there.  Your client can confirm this, he was there but you were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, you must be quite careful, you are not supposed to get excited because then if you are excited, you are not going to understand all the questions properly, and your answers are going to become more and more difficult.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I take notice of that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that sometimes emotions do run very high, but please you must try not to allow that to happen.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson, it is just difficult for me that when we come here and we speak the truth and people try by using technical aspects, or the use of language, to say something else.  I came here in order to disclose myself in front of the Committee and I am giving you the assurance Chairperson, what I am telling you is the truth.
	Tragedies took place and people are in prison, and I have no need or feeling to hide things, I do not want to twist things either.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, the problem is this that certain very serious allegations are made against his client.  He finds himself in a difficult situation and these questions he has to ask, because he is Oelofse's legal representative as you know.  He must ask these questions.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I accept that Chairperson.

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Let's go to another aspect Mr Kriel.  You said that you heard that Oelofse was in command of a so-called hit squad or whichever way you want to describe it?
	If we look at this specific incident, then the first thing that strikes me is that if it was the case that Oelofse was specifically focused on these kind of activities, can you then give us an explanation why according to your own version and that of the applicants in front of this Commission, why one of them only joined the AWB a week before this incident, he did not even have a uniform yet and three of the nine people wee involved in this incident, did not even have firearms?  Does this sound to you like a so-called death squad?  A highly trained death squad, does it sound like that to you?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes Chairperson, we made use of people we could get hold of.
	In this case I was not present, but we were ready with the revolution to accept people who come, and to handle them.  I do not know what was the background here, I do not know if these people had military backgrounds or not.  But I never said that these people were professional or that they were really very good at what they did or praised them.  We worked with the material we received.
	I cannot say that they were highly trained, that was simply the situation.

MR DREYER: Mr Kriel, I must differ from you because you spontaneously testified that at Ventersdorp you met Kloppers and you were given a testimony with regards to his expertise and the training he received in the Army and the impression I got was that the only reason why you gave that evidence, was to tell this Committee that these people who were here, these applicants, were not just normal commando members of the AWB, it was a highly specialised cell group who was focused on certain tasks and in this case, that of a death squad?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, with respect, he referred to Kloppers as the person he met in Ventersdorp, he wasn't referring to all of them, that is a wild conclusion my learned friend is making.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe before we go very far, maybe you should ask him whether that is the impression he wants to create.  Maybe that is not the impression he wanted to create.

MR DREYER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Unless you can convince me otherwise, I am telling you that the impression that I received from your evidence was this was the use of this group of applicants.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: There was no doubt whatsoever that Kloppers was very competent.  Today if you look at it again and say maybe he was not as competent, it maybe so, but at that stage he was considered very competent.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to interrupt here Mr Dreyer, unless you feel otherwise, I think we must put an end to this thing.  We can't keep on mentioning people's names, particularly in the context of death squads and all that kind of thing.  I am going to ask you Mr Kriel, you say you were told this by Mr Terreblanche that Mr Oelofse was in charge of a group of people whose task it was to kill others?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know whether that is true or not?  You don't know whether Terreblanche was telling you the truth when he said Oelofse was in charge of a death squad, a hit squad?  You don't know whether that is true?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, I spoke to Oelofse and with the other Commanders and we all knew, it was general knowledge that the task forces was under the command of Oelofse, amongst the Officials it was no secret.

MR MALAN: Does this include the Officials who were not trusted?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, it was generally known that he was in charge of the task forces and the specific operations, I don't think they would have known about that.  But the existence of the task forces under Oelofse, was general knowledge.
	When I got out of the AWB, he was still in command of the task forces.

MR MALAN: But with respect Mr Kriel,  to be in command of task forces does not imply to be in command of hit squads?  If he is a Fighting General, he must have a general responsibility.  This does not mean it was concerned with the elimination of individuals.  It doesn't say that anywhere, or does it say somewhere and our knowledge is wrong?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I do not have such a wide knowledge of language, but the word task force was used, and that resorted under him, and there is a difference between us who planted the bombs and the task forces.  They were seen as people who killed people and the bomb planters were those who started terror.

MR MALAN: The question I am asking, the concept task force and one is also loaded with a personal idea of what it means.  If the soldiers that copes with the conflict situation and the person who is responsible for it, it is not meant to kill individuals one by one, that is not the purpose of a task force.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you still want to pursue this.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, I've only got two statements.
	Firstly, the conclusion is still you have no personal knowledge that such a command was given or what the content of it would have been, although Kloppers or anybody else say that they did receive the instruction, you were not present?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I was not.