Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: So what do you propose doing?
MR ?: Chairperson I'll propose an adjournment for these witnesses early in the morning of tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you propose calling any witnesses?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, at this moment, I do not have witnesses to call Mr Chairperson. However, I will submit to the Chair a document from the Investigative Unit as to how unsuccessful they've been with tracing their witnesses. Mr Chairperson what I'm going to say now may also take care of our late starting after lunch.  I have been in contact with the captain of the police, Captain Fleming, during lunch time I went to the police station to find out if these people cannot be traced in Klerksdorp and he promised that if we adjourn earlier than I can drive with him to Klerksdorp to go and look for these people.  I can only be in a position to tell tomorrow whether we've found them or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the people that you are talking about?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is the mother to the deceased as well as the complainant Charles.
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JUDGE WILSON: /...
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JUDGE WILSON: What about the wife of the deceased?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is one of the persons I have mentioned Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, the other application of the Van Straaten Brothers is set down for tomorrow as well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is set down for tomorrow, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, that is going to carry on isn't it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It will carry on tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication as to whether the members of parliament are on there way to this meeting this afternoon or do you not know that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chairperson I got this information from the ANC Northwest from Mr Vuya who took charge of calling them.  He advised me during lunch that indeed he did call them and they assured him that they are on their way to this meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you know long it takes to travel from Mmabatho to here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It's about two and a half hours.

CHAIRPERSON: You see its quite early in the afternoon and we want to try and avoid wasting time. We lose a lot of time in between. Do you think that any point would be served if we adjourn for a short while and maybe on a cell phone you could enquire where they are.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I propose that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You will call us as soon as you're in a position to do so?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will do so Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson the witness before the Committee is Mrs Mary Agnes Kunwana. Mrs Mary
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Agnes Kunwana will give her evidence in Sotho or Tswana.  May she be sworn in please?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Chairperson.  For record purposes, Mrs Mary Agnes Kunwana is presently serving in the North West Provincial Government Parliament as a member of parliament and the steering committee of health for the North West Province. Mrs Agnes I wish to appreciate your coming to this meeting despite within the short space of time, we appreciate your being here.  The reason for you being called to give evidence is because we have three applicants this morning who led evidence and who in their evidence have featured your name prominently as the person who was involved at the time, that at the time of their act, they have now are asking this Committee to grant amnesty on.  They were housed at your place and the three are, Mr Musiwa Mishek Popane.  We have Sindisiwe Gcinisizwe.  We have Patrick Mukontwana.  Maybe we should start it as follows.  These three applicants do you know them well?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Yes I know them very well.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you know them?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: We used to belong to the same organisation, ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: And is it true that at some stage during the period of 1990, they were in fact staying at your house?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you please give reasons why they were staying at your house?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Thank you. In 1990 the ANC Youth League was not yet known as ANC Youth League.  It was named according to the township where the people used to stay.  So our ANC
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Youth League  was KUYUCO and all these boys, that is the vigilantes and the ANC Youth League belonged to the same camp. They were all ANC members.  And unfortunately 
the police infiltrated our organisation.  That is Mr de Kock, Pretorius, and Vermaak. They divided the organisation into two.  The other group was the ANC Youth League, and the other group was KUYUCO and the KUYUCO was the one which was bribed by the police. So the police used these boys left and right.  They gave them weapons, they gave them drugs, they gave them marijuana, they gave them liquor and they used their leader's house as the office and the police provided them with a telephone, so that they could phone and inform them.  And they used to make it a point that people in that house were as comfortable as possible.  Every day in the afternoon there was a house which was burned, which was burned on the 16th of June by the youth in our community, which was occupied by one of the police who was also one of the chief movers, who wanted to see us all dead because they did not want the ANC.  They used to dump food there and everything and these boys would smoke their drugs and from there they would go hunting for the ANC Youth League.  They used to chop them with axes, they used to attempt to shoot them.  It was terrible. It was youth against youth. It was Black against Black.  And when we called the police, the police used to protect them. They would teargas the Youth League so that these people could get a chance of doing whatever they wanted to do.  And as a result, all these boys, the Youth League, the ANC Womens' League, Civic Associations, COSATU, SACP, every organisation, used to stay in my house because whenever we went out we used to be beaten up.  When we go to work we used to go in groups.  
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When the children go to school, they used to go in groups. That's the life we used to live.  And every five minutes I was in jail, I was arrested by de Kock and he would tell me that INKATHA is going to burn my house and all those boys who are staying there will all die. But he never made it to that. So to come to the short story of the whole thing, why this boy was murdered.

<UNKNOWN>: Let me interrupt you for a while before we come to that one. Would you now say that your house was being used as some sort of a refuge for these boys that you are talking about?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Yes, they used to call it Khoto house.

<UNKNOWN>: Now in your testimony, you made mention of the Youth League boys and the vigilantes and then you further said this KUYOC. Who were these vigilantes?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: We used to call them vigilantes because they broke off from our organisation and they started being vigilantes.  They started fighting us.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know who were in the leadership of this vigilante group that you are mentioning now?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: One of them was the late, his name was, I forgot his name.

<UNKNOWN>: Does the name Abednego Mzimeni Mazwi ring bell to you?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: That is the right name.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, you can proceed then cutting the long story short.