Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.
	In the first place, I think, using the example between Makarov and Pinda doesn't go up, because the applicant specifically stated that he grew up with Pinda, so he's known him for many years.   Makarov he saw occasionally at meetings, and I don't think that that really goes up, and knowing code names, that is so, he knew the code name, but again it doesn't go up, I really cannot see the relevance of that part of it.   He grew up with Pinda, they were at school together, they were in the same street, same neighbourhood, they were kids on the block, and that's why he knew exactly, he knows four, five names by which this person was known, because they had an intimate relationship with each other, they knew each other.   Makarov he saw as a chairman at meetings, and we know that he didn't go to any other meetings, as such, so I think we can deduct from that that people were not that important and what their names were to him.
	The social aspect, I think was dealt with, and then Inkatha is not something that came up, it's in his papers, when he made the initial application.   He again said it under oath in his examination in chief, and he again mentioned it under cross-examination, and I don't think it does justice to the applicant to say it was just mentioned in passing, Inkatha was mentioned all along.
	As far as my learned friend, what he said about the street killings, policemen being killed in streets and the weapons used later in robberies, I accept that, but do we have statistics where police stations were hit with the object of obtaining firearms and whether they were used in ordinary crimes, etceteras?   I don't think so.   It's very easy to hit the lone policeman on a street doing duty, it's a bit difficult hitting a police station.   There were shots fired at them, we know that, they could have been killed, they ran that risk.   Where you mug the odd policeman on the street, that risk doesn't really exist, and really it's my humble opinion that he does satisfy the criteria for amnesty, and I would request the honourable chair and the honourable committee to find in his favour.
	Thank you very much.   
	And I want to thank my learned friend, it was good seeing him after many years, I want to thank him for his assistant.   
	On that I just want to say I received instructions fairly late, the applicant has been in custody for six years, whether Pinda is still alive, where he is, we don't know, and we cannot give answers to that.
	Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan.   We will reserve our decision in this matter and endeavour to get it out as soon as possible.
	Mr Mpshe, with regard to the question of the victims, you said you would mention it later.   This would be ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, I'm making an application, in compliance with section 22 of the, I don't know what you call it, the TRC Act, it's very long, section 22 of the TRC Act, that the following people be on record as victims, and their names are:  Abueng Pauline Magae.  Now she is the wife to the deceased, Isaac Magae;   and Nthabiseng Constance Magae, now that is a 12 year old girl, the daughter to the deceased;  and Mothusi Enoch Magae, a nine year old boy, the son to the deceased.   The address, Mr Chairman, is P O Box 2091, Mogwase, code 0314.  That is in respect of the first deceased, Mr Chairman.
	In respect of the deceased, Johannes Bokaba, may I again apply that section 2 be employed, even in the absence of the next of kin to the deceased?   The next of kin to the deceased is Mogotsi Eric Bokaba.   Now, Mr Chairman, this is the father to the deceased.   Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, with respect, I am not in a position to can provide the committee with the address, but I will endeavour to get hold of the address and to forward it to the R and R co-ordinator.
	That is all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mpshe.   Mr Mpshe, is there any possibility that the father of the - that Mr Bokaba will he here tomorrow?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I do not foresee any possibility thereof.   What I had in mind, Mr Chairman, with the committee's permission, is that since we'll be in Mabupane, and Mabupane is 45 minutes drive... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Closer to... (intervention).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To Themba.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) than this place is?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Indistinct) engage the services of our investigators in Gauteng to go to Themba to fetch her to bring her to where we shall be in Mabupane, and explain, I'm sorry to him, and explain the whole process to him, and perhaps I think it would be apposite to bring him to meet the committee and to say whatever he may want to say, it is the closest where we shall be.

ADV MOTATA: Are you suggesting, Mr Mpshe, that if he does come there, say whatever he says to us, what about the applicant, because I think he has a right to hear what they've got to say, whether they say, "We're not even objecting" or some of that nature, he's entitled to know that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, that is very correct.   Mr Chairman, I'm in constant contact with my colleague.   I think whatever is said by Mr Bokaba tomorrow, I will convey to my colleague.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you also now suggesting that it would not be necessary for us to postpone this matter here until tomorrow morning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is my suggestion, Mr Chairman, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourn from here, it will be to Mabupane for commencement of that hearing there on Thursday morning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I'd like to, before we adjourn, just thank all the people who made this hearing possible.  As mentioned earlier, I'd like to thank Mr Mulligan, Captain Wiese and others for allowing us to bring this matter forward to today.   I'd also like to thank the interpreters who have interpreted today, in their difficult task.   The sound technician, who set up and provided us with the sound facilities.   I'd also like to thank the caterers, who catered so well for us, and those staff, Elizabeth, etceteras, of Ashley, who worked so hard on the logistics side of setting up this hearing, it's never an easy task.  I'd like to thank the police services for providing their security for us, not only at the venue, but they've been very diligent and have even provided security for us at the hotel, but everything's been very peaceful there and I'm sure their presence, although it was appreciated, we never felt like we were under any threat here.   I'd also very much like to thank the authorities for making available this very nice venue, it's an excellent venue, and if I've forgotten anybody, it's not with any malicious intention, I'd like to thank everybody associated with this hearing for allowing it to happen as smoothly as it did.   Thank you very much.   We will now be adjourning and we will be reconvening again in Mabopane on Thursday for another application.    Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS