Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

ROBERT V O ZUMA: It wasn't easy because we didn't have much time to contact ANC leaders to talk to them because the fighting was continuous since from January.  We fought until June where we had to be arrested.  We didn't get a chance to sit down and contact maybe Babin and  Vezi to sit down and talk about this violence.

MR RATHMAN: When you got to Ndaleni why didn't you go and see chief Majosi?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: It was because we intended to attack the ANC members because they terrorized us.  They came to our place, shot us and burnt people ...(inaudible).

MR RATHMAN: Did you recognise any of the people who shot you, shot at you?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I knew most of them especially those from Magoda.  Some of them are in prison now.  These were people who were shooting police and I knew that when we arrived they might injure us.

CHAIRPERSON: Rather than contact your chief for help, don't you think you should have sent a warning to your chiefs that you were going to attack the ANC that night and they better be ready to protect themselves against retaliation?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I think the chief wasn't going to allow us to go and attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why?  Do you think the chief would have allowed you to be injured and maimed and killed by the ANC without giving you an alternative to such attacks?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I will put it clearly.  Chief Majosi was at Ndaleni and they also used to shoot or attack him, he didn't do anything.  ANC members were shooting at him.  I knew that he was not of the view that we should fight back, that's why I'm saying that he wasn't going to allow us to go back and attack these people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What about the leader of the IFP in your area, was that his attitude too that you should not fight back?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Vezi was not going to allow us to because he was one of the persons who wasn't involved in conflicts.

MR RATHMAN: I'm told there was a van driving about Ndaleni that night carting people, are you sure you didn't see one?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question.

MR RATHMAN: I'm told that that night when you made the attack there was a van driving around Ndaleni carrying people, didn't you see it?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't know anything about that and I didn't see the van.

MR RATHMAN: The people you've mentioned as seeing at Ndaleni are now dead aren't they?  Mtusi, Ndoda Mtusi, he's dead isn't he?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I heard in 1991 or 1992 that he died and chief Majosi died.

MR RATHMAN: And Ntolo also died, didn't he?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't know what happened to Ntolo, I last saw him in 1991 at Ndaleni.  I don't know where he went to.

MR RATHMAN: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RATHMAN

CROSS- MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Zuma, in your application and letter attached to the application - I'll refer member of the Committee to page 34, point 2 of the bundle - the translation of your letter.   I'm going to read from paragraph 3 thereof, which reads
Honourable members, I want to make it clear that nobody ordered me to attack the deceased but I was revenging the death of my brother.
Did you hear that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I heard that my brother was injured but I don't think, I don't think I would have said that because the brother who got injured was injured after I was arrested.  I don't know because I didn't write the letter, it was written by Mrs Knobe.  My brother died after I was arrested, I don't know that, I deny that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying you did not write the letter?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I can't say, I can't agree that I didn't say my brother passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you write the letter?  Have you seen the letter we're talking about?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I made an application for amnesty.  Yes, I would say I did write this letter.  I accept the letter as written by me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think in fairness to you Mr Zuma, the translation is incorrect as it stands, if you pass.  You are saying and I quote
	The Honourable, I want to put it clear is that nobody sent me ... (in Zulu that means your brother was seriously injured -  it's an expression in Zulu).  I say that ...(inaudible)  It wasn't because someone died.  What you are trying to say here is that your brother was seriously sick, terminally ill.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I'll say that's it's a problem because since we are in prison we normally, I normally sometimes loose my mind so while I was writing maybe I didn't understand what I was writing.  As a prisoner something may have affected my mind, that's why at the moment I'm disagreeing with that.  When I gave the amnesty application forms, I knew that I'd be given a chance to speak.  My younger brother died after I was arrested therefore I will say that that may be the reason why I can't comprehend the situation very well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What we're trying to explain is that when you used these words you didn't want to say that your brother had died at that time.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct, I wanted to explain that my brother was injured and died after I was arrested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the time when you launched the attack, had anything happened to your brother?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Nothing happened to our home, our homestead was burnt and we couldn't stay there and that's all that happened when we were attacked.  Our family was at the outskirts and that was the first family on the border.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Zuma to avoid further confusion, my question is so simple, at the time when you joined the force and attacked, had anything happened to your brother, the one you're referring to in the letter?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when you say ... no English translation  how can you say you revenge because your brother was injured when nothing had happened to him at the time you launched the attack?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: As I've explained before, I was confused while writing the letter.  I did intend to say that he died because of the violence which continued in my place.  I'm trying to correct that because while we're in prison we normally don't see things very well or clear.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now if that is the position, on whose behalf were you revenging when you launched this attack?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Many family members and neighbours were killed.  One of the girl mother died and some other family members were injured and they were attacking the Inkatha families therefore as an Inkatha we had to pay revenge because when those others were attacked and injured, I thought I could be injured at any time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I thought I heard you say that the attack was not sanctioned or ordered or commanded by the IFP, did I hear you correctly?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes that's correct, we were not sent by the IFP.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I then be correct to state that when you went there to launch that attack, it had nothing to do with IFP as an organisation?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I won't agree with that because it was ...(inaudible) which organisations which we were fighting although I won't say I was, we were sent by IFP, I would say it was IFP and ANC people who were fighting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Zuma - I'm sorry Mr Mpshe- I'm a little perturbed by the evidence.  I keep on listening from Mr Gumbi and now from yourself that you - the IFP leadership did not know anything about the attacks which were happening in Richmond.  We've already heard evidence from Mr Gumbi and you have now also testified thereto that there were repeated incidents of attack in Richmond.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes.