Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Where he himself, he was representing members of the security branch - they left the office with one voice and when they appeared in court there would be people who would take their own directions.   I kept quiet that the thing which I thought it home is now starting to surface, I had to use my mind as a member of the security branch so that I should be out of this thing.  He informed us that he will take all our statements, one by one and then all things which we should say should be against what Ngo is going to say.
	We went to his office individually and then he made statements with the understanding that if you are a person who has an understanding knowing that if you don't do that, something may happen.  I know how the security branch used to work.  I went to his office, I sat on the chair - before then he asked us one individually, as to whether among us: "how do you want this case to be worked out"?  
	I kept quiet all the time when others were talking and all of them were denying this thing.  He himself asked me directly as to whether: "why are you so quiet"?  I said to him: "I understand about this case which we are discussing but according to me, I want that each and everyone should speak for himself in the Truth Commission".
	He said: "No, I don't want it that way, I want us that we should discuss it here and finish here that it should come up with one voice so that each and everyone should appear there.  I want to finish up this Ngo's case, Ngo before the table.  All of us who are here should not be questioned, I've got to finish it alone in the Truth Commission".
	We went there individually or one by one.  I went to that office, I presented my statement with the knowledge that here something has been planned which I don't have an idea.  Those officers have no knowledge of the members of the security branch, what kind of people are they but he leads us to the point where we don't want to be.  
	Then I made my statement, then he asked me questions and then I was answering those questions, then all of us made statements before we took an oath.  He came again - again before that he said he has been given instructions by the person on his right hand side - he phoned him - he was not present, he said he went for duty somewhere then he phoned him that we should be united.
	We left there after he told us that: "you are now going to take an oath, then these things - you're things are going to be read before you sign or before you take an oath".  Mamome said: "no, we don't want it to be like that".  When we arrived, we saw that there is a police station somewhere.  There are police who were working on top of their office so which means they are related to the police.
	We left with those papers.  He gave Coetzee instructions that we should go and show us upstairs where we're going to sign, as if we were children.  So, I could see that our case has been strengthened that they wanted to ensure that those papers are signed.  We went upstairs - when we arrived there a certain Captain came - to show that he knew Coetzee, he saluted him, then he was calling him Brigadier.  
	That Captain, he went with us and looked for a stamp.   We went downstairs, he found a stamp for an oath in that building.  He went with us in a certain room.  They were signed.  He took them and then he signed them because he was there looking, he signed them - that is not an oath, even the way he was signing he was in a hurry.  
	What I'm saying is this, even if you can check those papers from Mamome, mine and Mtyala and some members whom we worked with, you would see underneath that it is the same time when we made an oath to show that it was made in a hurry - the time is the same when we made those statements.

MR VISSER: Are you quite finished?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I'm finished.

MR VISSER: Let's try to start again.  Ten minutes, Mr Chairman.
	What were the tricks that you referred to that Coetzee and Mamome played?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's to be taken to your offices without our knowledge.  I thought we were going to apply for amnesty - they were going to look for a person who was going to represent us.

MR VISSER: Did you tell either Coetzee or Mamome that you'd applied for amnesty before you left?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Why should I tell them?

MR VISSER: Why don't you just answer the question, did you did you not tell them?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't understand why should I tell them, that's my answer.

MR VISSER: So Mr Motsamai, if you didn't tell them, how could you assume that you were going to a lawyer to apply for you for amnesty?  Please tell us.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That's how we were taken that we were taken to a lawyer.

MR VISSER: How could you expect that that lawyer would apply for you for amnesty if you had told nobody that you applied for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I couldn't have told them because I've already asked amnesty before then.  I just wanted to have a legal representative from them.

MR VISSER: But you applied for a legal representative we know that, didn't you Mr Motsamai, to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?  We've got the form, Exhibit P28.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Where?

MR VISSER: I'm asking the question.  Did you or did you not apply for a legal representative to the TRC?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Mr Mpshe helped me.

MR VISSER: So you did apply for legal representation?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: But in your request there is one which was made by you.  The person next to the left hand side said we should leave the spaces then he know what he was going to do.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Motsamai, we'll come to all of that.  Just one question - I'm going to make it as simple as I can.  Before you went to Pretoria, had you applied to the TRC for a legal representative to represent you in your amnesty application?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true I told them, then they said they are going to prepare for me but they took time before they responded, up until the day when we started with the hearing, that is where Mr Mpshe helped me.

MR VISSER: Therefore Mr Motsamai, you couldn't have thought that Mr Coetzee and Mr Erasmus and Mr Shaw and Mr Mamome and all those people were going up to Pretoria to apply for amnesty, you couldn't have thought that.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I said - should I repeat what I said?

MR VISSER: No, I'm just asking you, did you really think that?  All of you were going to go to a lawyer to apply for amnesty, is that what you thought?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That's what I thought.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Did you ever receive a notification of the application of Mr Ngo for amnesty?  Was that ever served on you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, the Truth Commission's staff sent that to me.

MR VISSER: Did you receive that over the week-end of the 10th to the 14th of March?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They sent it to me.

MR VISSER: Of the weekend of the 10th to the 14th of March?  I'm sorry, I said weekend, I meant week, week.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I think that is so.  That is correct.

MR VISSER: And after that week of the 10th to the 14th of March, you went to see Mr Wagner in Pretoria, am I correct?  In fact on the 18th of March.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is the thing which took me there and that is the idea but the thing which created many ideas to me, was that all these people did not know as whether we're going to Wagner, nobody knew that we're going to Wagner.  I'm telling the truth, these are old people, they're matured people - I'm not lying.