Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, I'm Judge Pillay.  I am going to ask my fellow Panellists to identify themselves for purposes of the record, and then also the other members who are party to this hearing.

UNKNOWN: It's Advocate Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.

DR TSOTSI: Doctor Tsotsi from Port Elizabeth.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Dawie Claasen, attorney from Pretoria, appearing today on behalf of the applicants, Mr Sigudu, Mvelase and Manqele.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee, Ms Thabile Thabete, the Evidence Leader for the TRC.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I thank the Committee for its indulgence.  I would like to start by calling Mr Thulani Aaron Sigudu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to the taking of the oath?

MR SIGUDU: (sworn states)

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well Mr Claassen, proceed.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Sigudu, you are the applicant for in the application for amnesty in terms of Act 34 of 1995, before this Committee today, for a crime which you were sentenced on the 9th of December 1994, is that correct?

MR SIGUDU: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu are you a member or affiliated to any political party?

MR SIGUDU: I am a follower.

MR CLAASSEN: A follower of which party?

MR SIGUDU: Of the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: How long have you been a follower of the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: Since I was at school.

MR CLAASSEN: Can you tell the Committee what year that was approximately?

UNKNOWN: It has been many years now.  I have forgotten the count of years.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, at the time of the Commission of this offence for which you are seeking amnesty, were you a member or affiliated to the IFP at that stage?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Were you an ordinary follower, or did you hold any position in office within the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: I was an ordinary member.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, you submitted a Form 1 application form for this Amnesty Application in December 1996, and annexed to this particular application was, also marked Annexure A, was a statement written on your behalf which was also signed by you, is that correct?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: And you are aware, and know the contents of this said statement?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, if I may just point you to a few points in this statement made by yourself, could you just very briefly, very, very briefly, tell the Committee what exactly occurred on the day of this particular incident.

MR SIGUDU: On that particular day, it was myself and the people who were in my company and it happened that we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who are those people?

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairperson, I don't seem to be coming through, he doesn't seem to be hearing anything.

MR CLAASSEN: I don't know if the reception is any better, if the Interpreter could just perhaps speak to him.  He seems to be hearing now.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people in whose company you were?

MR SIGUDU: It was Manqele, Thulani Mvelase and Ziegfried Mzolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thulani who?

MR SIGUDU: Thulani Mvelase.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MR SIGUDU: Sampson Manqele and Siegfried Mzolo.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Sigudu, would you please continue, what happened on that particular day?

MR SIGUDU: On that particular day we committed a crime, myself, Siegfried and the others and this white person, this white lady was shot and we took the money, but I must indicate that we did not succeed in fleeing with the money because the police came and they fired shots and Mvelase was injured.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, could you just chronologically just very briefly state what actually occurred when you committed this crime.

MR SIGUDU: What happened was that we, Manqele came to us and he showed us the place after having been showed the place by Mvelase and they showed us the people and we went to these two people and we pointed our firearms at them and we demanded money.   At that very same instant this white lady who was in the company of another white person got injured and an alarm went off and we fled.  The police came and pursued us, fired shots at us and Mvelase got injured and that is how we were arrested.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, this affidavit which you submitted as Annexure A with your initial application, who took this affidavit from you?

MR SIGUDU: I did this affidavit with the assistance of an IFP legal representative.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, you, in this particular affidavit, you state that on that particular day, that you had been armed with a .38 special pistol, is this indeed correct?

MR SIGUDU: I did not have a firearm that day, only Manqele and Mvelase had firearms.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, have you got any explanation for this apparent mis-communication between yourself and the person who took this statement from you?

MR SIGUDU: May the speaker please repeat the question.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you.   Mr Sigudu, have you got any explanation for this apparent mis-communication between yourself and the person who took this statement from you?

MR SIGUDU: He said it transpired that I had a firearm and I indicated to him that I was not in possession of any firearm, only Manqele and Mvelase had firearms.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Sigudu.  You, by your own ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why is it then, that the person who recorded your statement, how did it come that that person wrote down there that you were armed with a .38 special pistol?

MR SIGUDU: Maybe that is how he wanted it because he also learned that I was also charged for being in possession of a firearm.  Truly speaking, the one person or persons who had firearms were Mvelase and Manqele.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Sigudu, you were, by your own testimony, part and parcel of what happened that day.  What did you seek to achieve by what had happened there?

MR SIGUDU: We intended to strengthen our organisation financially so that we could purchase firearms.   This resulted from the situation that prevailed at the time or the atmosphere rather.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, this atmosphere that you are referring to, what do you mean by this?

MR SIGUDU: I am referring here to the conflict between the IFP and the ANC.  There was a conflict going on so that there was a need for firearms so that we should be in the position to protect ourselves in case we are attacked.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, where did you live at the time of this incident and why do you keep referring to "ourselves", what do you mean by that?

MR SIGUDU: By "us", I am referring to "us" as an organisation and I was staying at Dube Hostel.

MR CLAASSEN: Your co-applicants before this Amnesty Committee today, where did they reside at the time of this incident?

MR SIGUDU: They were at Dube as well.

UNKNOWN: Were they at Dube at the hostel or were they at Dube, at the township?

MR SIGUDU: They were at Dube Hostel.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, do you know if any of your fellow applicants were also affiliated to a political party?

MR SIGUDU: They were members of the organisation to which I belong.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, did you receive instructions from anyone to commit the crime that occurred on that particular day?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, there were instructions that we received.

MR CLAASSEN: From whom were these instructions received?

MR SIGUDU: These instructions came from Wiseman.

MR CLAASSEN: Who was Wiseman?

MR SIGUDU: He is one of the inmates at the hostel.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu do you know if Mr Wiseman was in any way affiliated with a political party?

MR SIGUDU: He too was a member of the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me Mr Chair.  Mr Sigudu, do you know if he was anything more than an ordinary member of the IFP, what was his standing within the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen tell me, is your client handicapped?

MR CLAASSEN: No Mr Chairman, he is not.