Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mtshali, I just want to know the number that is how many members comprised the SDU and in this respect, let's just confine ourselves to those who were patrolling Muleleki Section as a whole A to E or F, how many members, how many were you in the SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There were many of us Mr Chairperson.   I can estimate to around 45 upwards.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that when you first arrived at the spot where Bulelwa's body was laying, you were told that people with blankets were not welcomed.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said Buthelezi said this?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Buthelezi who was subsequently killed?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why Buthelezi would have said that people with blankets are not welcomed there?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I know Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was that?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: It is because he was not part of the ANC struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that he was not a full member of the ANC?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.  He was not a full member of the ANC.  Will you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: He was not a full member of the ANC?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: It is because one day there was a truck, a paraffin truck that was hijacked by the Youth and they took this truck to a place between Block F and Block E.
	And when I got out of the house, I saw the community running with buckets, water buckets and plastic water containers.  When I rushed there to establish what was happening, I saw on the tar road separating Block F and Block E, I saw this truck and that is where the community had gathered.
	The route came from comrade Buthelezi.  He too was standing outside in the street.  When I went to him, that is when I could actually see what this truck was all about.  I then said to comrade, when I realised that people were pushing that, I realised that people were differing on this thing.
	When I got there, it was a paraffin truck.  I then asked him is it the right thing to do and he said this thing belongs to the Boers, you don't have to worry.  I then went back into the house.  	That is why I got assurance that he was not an ANC member because he was supposed to call the youth to order when they made mistakes, because that paraffin was going to help us.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other reason why you suggested that Buthelezi wasn't a full member of the ANC?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I do have another reason.  That refers to the formation of the Self Defence Unit when there was one already in existence.  This is also something that I concluded will create a problem in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I don't have any other reason Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand from you, the decision to form the new SDU was taken by the residents of F Section, because I gathered from you that there weren't many members of the SDU there?  Is that right?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you therefore consider the other residents of Block F who decided to form the new SDU, not to be full members of the ANC?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: They were members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Notwithstanding the fact that they had decided to form a new SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: They were instructed by Buthelezi because these were his ideas of forming the new SDU.  I would say they agreed to being forced to submit.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there many members of the SDU at Block F?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There were two SDU members in Block F, among those who have applied here.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those two members enough to patrol the whole of Block F?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, they were not sufficient.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Blanko's house, were there many people who had gathered there?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any members of the SDU present?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not stay there, you just went there to observe the damage and then you returned to where Bulelwa's body was?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any specific reason why you didn't stay there at Blanko's house?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There is no reason Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you left Blanko's house to return to where Bulelwa's body was, did you hear what people were talking about there?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they talking?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, they were talking.

CHAIRPERSON: But you couldn't hear what they were talking about?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you then returned to the spot where Bulelwa's body was?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There people were talking about the unrest and crime?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You could hear people talking about that?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any suggestion as to who had killed Bulelwa, at the meeting?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the suggestion?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: It was said the Youth was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: When you returned to the spot where Bulelwa was, you were not longer wearing the blanket, were you?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I still had my blanket on.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you to go, to leave the spot in the first place?  Well, you told us that when you arrived there Buthelezi said that people who were wearing blankets were not welcomed here and you left, right?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you returned later wearing the same blanket?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you leave in the first place?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I came back the following day Chairperson, seeing other comrades who were wearing blankets there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any suggestion at all that Bulelwa had been killed by the members of the SDU?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you did not know?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I did not know that Bulelwa was killed by the SDU members.

CHAIRPERSON: There were rumours and talks, are there rumours that you came across to the effect that Bulelwa was killed by SDU comrades?  Is there any reason why you did not go to the veld where the people were killed?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There is no reason Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you left, did you say that you from where you had been, that is at the spot where Bulelwa's body was, you returned to your house?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.  When the corpse was being taken shortly after the car had arrived to pick the corpse up.

CHAIRPERSON: When the body was removed, were the deceased still in the shacks, locked up in the shacks?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Which deceased are you referring to Chairperson?  The children who were killed in the veld, yes, I would say so even though I was not there personally, I was in the community, guarding over Bulelwa's body.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see the deceased being removed from this shack to another shack?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what was going to happen to these persons?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever think what was going to happen?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I did not because I did not know what decision the Commander will take.