Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude explained that there was going to be a match and many white people are going to be there and when we placed that in the vicinity of the stadium, white people would get the message clear.

DR TSOTSI: Was the stadium attended by white people only?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: According to our history we knew white people to be the ones attending rugby.

DR TSOTSI: So you did not anticipate that there might be black people as well in the stadium?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We never anticipated that.

DR TSTOTSI: Was the stadium fenced in, do you know?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Could any people within the stadium have been injured or killed by the blast of the bomb?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The car was parked quite a distance from the stadium.  It was impossible for the blast to effect people.

DR TSOTSI: So you are saying the manner of the people who were killed or injured, sustained injuries or killed inside the stadium itself, is that correct?   Perhaps I should get assistance here from Advocate Prior?

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence available is that all the people who were injured had left the stadium and were in the streets.  I think that is common cause, isn't it?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, we haven't considered that carefully but it would appear to be the case from the affidavits and statements at least, yes.

DR TSOTSI: Are you yourself trained in the use of bombs?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I don't have.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: Must I hold it on?  Did - was Dumakude the only one among you who had knowledge of use of bombs?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, my lord.

DR TSOTSI: You yourselves didn't have any say, you yourself did not have anything to say, you just carried out his instructions in a sort of blind fashion?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.  We were only executing the orders.

DR TSOTSI: Did you at any time anticipate that the bomb might go off while you and Dumakude were still handling it or before you left the precincts of the stadium?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: When you agree to become a member of the M.K. you are saying yes to death as well as life.  When death has arrived it has arrived.

DR TSOTSI: If you can avoid death even if you're in the M.K. you avoid it?  For instance you got out of the car with the bomb before it got to the place where it was set.  Why was that?  You've told the court that you got out of the car that was carrying the bomb before it got to the place where it was set.  Why did you do that?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was part of our plan.

DR TSOTSI: What was the purpose of the plan?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We didn't want to be seen getting out of the car simultaneously.

DR TSOTSI: Were there people around there to see you?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I have explained that there were policemen and traffic cops but standing a little bit far.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  But Mr Matshididi, do you accept that the role that you played in the assistance you gave to Mr Dumakude, it seems to be very little, you just seem to have accompanied him on this operation.  You don't seem to have any input yourself apart from the reconnaissance on the Friday.  But do you accept that your conduct in so far as you associated yourself with Dumakude's actions of constructing and planting a bomb as it was planted at Ellis Park that that led eventually to the deaths of the two persons, Mr Klukas and Marais and to the injury to the other 31 persons who were in fact injured?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I accept that it was unintentionally done.  It is a set thing that happened, it was not my intention.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying that all you expected to happen was the bomb to have exploded, there would be loud noise that would then send a message to the white people attending that particular sporting function.  Is that what you intended?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That was my vision Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it he is saying that the killing was accidental, there was no intent and in so far as it is anything it might be culpable homicide.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Matshididi is there anything you would like to say to the victims present today?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Yes I want to say something.  I want to say to those who lost their loved ones, it was not my intention or the group that I was with on that day, but I know it would be difficult for them to forgive us but we are really sorry for the loss of life that occurred on that day.  We really are sorry.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there's one final matter on my side.  I need to ask this question.  Does the name Hein Groskopf mean anything to you or the M.K. name Acquina - Acquilla, sorry.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I've heard of the name Groskopf but I've never seen him.

ADV PRIOR: In this particular operation I need to know are you able to assist this Committee, did this person as far as you are concerned, to your knowledge, have anything to do with the Ellis Park bomb?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: No Sir, not at all.

ADV PRIOR: And finally, are you aware of who within the structure of M.K. gave Mr Dumakude his instructions?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I do not bear that knowledge Sir.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman it may be appropriate at this time to ask the victims whether there are any questions from their side?  I believe Mrs Klukas has a few questions.

MRS KLUKAS: You killed my husband, an innocent man, who went to watch a rugby match.  He never returned home.  He did nobody any harm.  He wasn't involved in any political party at all.  We've got two children.  Why?  Okay you say it was the whites but he had nothing against anybody.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Mrs Klukas, this was not intentionally done, it was not my intention to kill your husband.  I know how sad it is to lose your loved one, just like you, but I am saying this again - it was not our intention.

MRS KLUKAS: To plant a bomb that did that damage you must have known that somebody would be killed?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The death was accidental it was not intentional, we did not plant the bomb with the intention of killing people.  I have said already that if it was our intention to kill people, we would have planted the bomb inside the stadium but we placed it far away from the stadium.

MRS KLUKAS: People had to walk past that car.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: At the time of planting the bomb there was no one close to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not the time that the clock was set for, was it?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I would not answer that question because I don't know what time those people passed close to the car whether it was before or after, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You know very well the bomb was not timed to go off when you left the car because it would have blown you up, don't you?  You know that the time that you left the bomb there it was not timed to go off at that time?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, it was set for the time it was supposed to go off.

MRS KLUKAS: You've shattered our lives, we can never go on with our lives again.  Losing a father, a husband, who would never have harmed anybody.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Mrs Klukas, it is sad that it happened.

MRS KLUKAS: Do you think it was worth it now?  Did it gain anything?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Many things happened in those years and many of us are still saying they were not necessary.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mrs Erasmus who was the widow of Mr Marais, that's the other victim, has declined thank you.  That concludes my questioning and the victims' questioning of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS KLUKAS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Landman?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, may I ask for a short adjournment?  My instructing attorney wishes to give me certain instructions.