Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is true but I think what contributed to a large extent was that they didn't wish to testify.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I ask you about a hit list which was found either in Mrs Mandela's house or in Mrs Mandela's office that was found in the course of the Stompie investigation, can you tell us anything about that?
It was referred to in testimony in the trial of the 
State v Lerothodi Ikaneng.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I heard that statement, it was with the death of Maxwell Madonda.  Personally I never saw that hit list, and firstly I never had any notice of it. The investigating officer was a Sergeant van Zyl and I think he gave that testimony to the court.

MR UNTERHALTER: And did you not seek and follow this matter up with Sergeant van Zyl, after all you were investigating matters surround the Football Club?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Sgt van Zyl's case did not clash with my case at all.  The only clashing at such a point was that Mr Madondo member of the Football Club.

MR UNTERHALTER: Have you any idea where that list might be?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I have no idea, I think that during the court case they were also unable to find the hit list.  I am speaking under correction.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Joseph.  You know that you have a record to maintain.

MR JOSEPH: Superintendent, my surname is Joseph, I represent Katiza Cebekhulu and Emma Nicholson.  I have a few questions to ask.  I think it was you Supt Dempsey who gave evidence to the effect that you found certain clothing and other items that belonged to Katiza Cebekhulu in the home of Mrs Mandela. Is that correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes that is so Chairperson.

MR JOSEPH: Can you remember precisely where you found these items and the clothing?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I'm not entirely certain but I think in the outside room, the first one at the back door.  One walks past the back door, the first room on your left.

MR JOSEPH: And can you describe the nature of the articles that you found?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: It was clothing and one or two books on which his name had been written.

MR UNTERHALTER: As if, did you draw the inference that he might have lived in that room, use the room as a place where he went to sleep at night?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I came to the conclusion that he had been there because those goods were found there.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now I certainly don't want to criticise you two gentlemen, as I believe I have an understanding of what your duties are in so far as investigating crimes are concerned.  I also recognise that both of you are police officers with many many years of experience.  I find this puzzling.  In regard to a simple crime, the crime of assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm on the person of Lolo Sono, that simple crime.  From your testimony you had uncovered evidence with three eye witnesses, those three people being the father of Lolo Sono, Nicodemus Sono's wife and the driver of the motor vehicle, Michael, I forget his surname.  Is this correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: No perhaps you misunderstand.  In those statements there was no mention that they had seen the assaults.  Sono's face was swollen. He does not state in this statement how Sono had sustained the injuries.

MR UNTERHALTER: I beg your pardon, did they confirm Mrs Mandela was present in the kombi?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did they confirm that Mr Sono had asked Mrs Mandela to give up her son, his son to him to let him take his son out of the vehicle, did they confirm that?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes I may speak under correction, it was some time ago, I can't refresh my memory about it but as far as I can remember Lolo Sono had been sent home with one of the guards or one of the persons who were in the kombi to go and fetch a jersey.  That is my recollection from the statements etc.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, I have no further questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Miller.

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, I have questions for Senior Superintendent Moodley.  The name is Michael Miller and I represent Thulani Dhlamini.  Now first of all Senior Superintendent, there was some evidence now that the cells of Mbatha and Dhlamini were bugged. Could you tell us some more about it, how you did this and what information you learned as a result?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: As a result of what was told to us we went to then convicted prisoners from Leeukop, one from Leeukop and one from Westville prison and put them in a cell at Central Prison. To hear perhaps from the conversations they had that we wouldn't pick up some sort of information that may lead us into the further allegations that were made that Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela was involved in this murder, that she had given instructions or something like that.  Nothing had come up to light at that stage.

MR MILLER: And when was this, this year or last year or...(intervention)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No 1995.

MR MILLER: 1995 and so you had no luck with this?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No but I had subsequently had, before I brought him up to Pretoria I got another statement from Thulani Mbatha.

MR MILLER: Yes I think that is before the Commission.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's before the Commission yes.

MR MILLER: Now at the trial they were charged with and convicted of robbery R145 from the late Dr Asvat.  Is that correct?

MR MILLER: And yet we have heard the evidence this morning of Dr Ebrahim, that there was nothing missing from Dr Asvat's surgery, they balanced the books, there was no
money missing.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I don't know where the figure came from but we got the figure of that amount of money that was missing.  I didn't tell you how the figure had come up but I'm sure Henk Hesslinga can tell you that, but we did have that figure, a figure, I don't think even the figure you're telling me now, I'm not even sure if it is the right figure or not, I cannot vouch for that.

MR MILLER: Well I'm going to put it to you Superintendent that in fact there was no money stolen from the surgery, nothing.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: What I am saying is what I know at the time was money stolen, I can't give you the exact figure.

MR MILLER: How did you establish this?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Well from the trial itself and from what Henk has said.

MR MILLER: No but you were the investigating officer weren't you?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I wasn't Henk was the investigating officer.

MR MILLER: I understood that you had all the time been the investigating officer in this case.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I assisted Henk in the investigation, I was never the investigating officer of this case.  It was mentioned by ...(indistinct) just now. This is why he wanted Henk to answer a few questions.

MR MILLER: But did you attend the trial in this matter?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes I did.

MR MILLER: And it is correct that Dlamini made a statement before Superintendent Zeelie at Brixton Murder and Robbery in terms of which he stated that Mrs Mandela had promised him R20 000 to commit the murder.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes I'm aware of that.

MR MILLER: And this statement was never put before the Court?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes.

MR MILLER: Is that correct?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes that's correct.

MR MILLER: In fact we've been given to understand that the prosecutor and apparently the police investigators also laughed at this theory and were not particularly impressed by it.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No no I don't know about the laughing part of it but all the documentation that we collected at the time and all the evidence we collected was given to the Attorney General, he decided not to use the evidence.

MR MILLER: Do you know why?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No I don't know.

MR MILLER: Thank you I have no further questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kades.