Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just add something there.  Obviously we realise that you are not lawyers and in fact most of you have been allowed to ask questions which had you been lawyers you would not have gotten past those questions.  But we definitely leant backwards to try and accommodate, because we understand these are matters of great sensitivity, but at the same time, we are trying to balance a very difficult situation.  We are trying to get to where we should really get.
	Perhaps, you know, Mr Jonas, what you should do really is, what you must remember is that you oppose his application for amnesty, in respect of the assault on yourself.  You know, basically that is your interest in this proceedings, because you are a victim and as I understand you, you are not happy that the applicant has made a full disclosure, but when you look at that question as to whether or not the applicant has made a full disclosure, bear in mind that it should be in relation to the assault, basically the assault on yourself.
	It may be that he is not applying for amnesty in respect of certain matters, maybe he knows he won't get amnesty about those matters and therefore for somebody else who knows about those other matters, to come in and put a lot of questions to this witness, it won't be taking us anywhere, because after all as I say, maybe the applicant is not asking for amnesty in respect of those other matters which you may regard of some interest to the public, but which in fact are not before us.
	What is before us is his application for amnesty in respect of the assault on yourself.  That should be the parameters of your cross-examination.  Thank you.

MR JONAS: Okay, let's come back to the hospital.  What orders then did you give to the people who guarded me in terms of the treatment in the hospital after then you became aware that I was critically injured?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure if I understand the question, what treatment you were supposed to be given?

MR JONAS: Okay.  I want to just remind you that I was guarded by nine police, 24 hours a day for the whole period I was in hospital and  I was not entitled to go into any conversation with the medical orderlies and the other leg, whilst the one injured was in traction, the other one which was not as critical as the other, was chained with a chain and a padlock on the bed.  Is that normal practise of an injured person to be treated like that for the whole  period I was in bed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: You would remember that I did not visit you too many times in hospital, but if that was the arrangement for your detention and under the circumstances, I think it would have been correct.

MR JONAS: Who then would arrange that if maybe as you were the person that took me to hospital.  Who would then have arranged for those conditions?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The custody and wellbeing of you in hospital would have been delegated to some or other persons not directly attached to us.  I think the policemen that guarded you, if I am not mistaken, were from local police stations.

MR JONAS: There were eight uniformed police and one Security Branch police, right through.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't answer this.

MR JONAS: And the  police were just there to guard and interrogation was only done by the Security Police who was specialists in that field.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, carry on, that may be so.

MR JONAS: Come again?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, that might be very well so, what you are saying that there were so many policemen guarding you.

MR JONAS: And police were instructed, because they are not trained in security matters, not to enter into any conversation with me.  If I have to talk to anybody, it is the Security Branch police that is there and you visited me in hospital on more than one occasion, would you agree?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I have already said, I have visited you there.

MR JONAS: Is it a correct procedure then to have someone injured, who is in traction and medication, with nine policemen guarding him, armed also be chained to a bed with a chain, naked chain?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know if there were nine policemen all at one time or at Units that made up a total of nine, but that was out of my hands.  I was not the person ...

MR JONAS: The numbers of the police is not the issue at hand.  The question is about the use of the chain.  Even if it is three police, those are professionally trained people.
	What I am asking is, is it a normal practice to chain a person, a human being with a naked chain given the circumstances?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Given the circumstances of an identified terrorist in hospital, I think it could be the normal norm.

MR JONAS: Is it the doctrine of the SAPS, or I mean of the then SAP?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me, I didn't hear?

MR JONAS: Was it a doctrine of the then SAP to chain even if a person is an identified terrorist, because in hospital I am a patient?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: With all respect, Mr Jonas, I cannot answer for what the procedures are or were laid down by somebody else.  I was not the person who laid down the procedures.

MR JONAS: But you were the person who brought me to hospital - where does your role ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give instructions to the hospital authorities that he should be chained to the bed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir.  But I know he was chained to the bed at a stage when I visited him.

MR JONAS: Where does the role, I mean I want to establish, he took me, he was not in the foreground when I was tortured, he was at the foreground when I was taken to hospital, he was with me.  Where does his role play and who took over from him?   Definitely no one can just come from the blue and take over.  He must be introduced in.  If he took me to hospital, then the authority would have handed over to the second person.  If he never gave orders for me to be chained, whom did he give orders to then to take over my incarceration?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That I find difficult to answer this question, I may perhaps enlighten the court - on the first night of Mr Jonas' detention, I doubt if he was in chains.  He refers to chains, I presume it is footcuffs.  But both his legs were incapacitated if I am not mistaken.  One was in traction and I doubt if the first night, I am speculating if he would have been shackled to the bed.  Maybe as he became more stronger, those instructions would have been given.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is directed at you whether you gave instructions to somebody that he should be so shackled?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: When he was detained in this hospital, presumably some police authority would be responsible for him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: I take it that would be the police station under whose jurisdiction the hospital fell?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In normal situations, yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we move on Mr Jonas?

MR JONAS: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JONAS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS INTHANGA: We would like to call to the stand Mr Peter Jacobs, Mr Chairman.

MR JACOBS: Good day.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Hallo Peter.