Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Gouws, I just want to refer you to the letter which was written by Free State Agricultural Union.  I don't know whether you had insight into it, there isn't a big deal about it, but the letter was handed to us one of the Exhibits, I think Exhibit F last time.  I think it was written by Mr Els, that is the Chairperson I believe of the security section of the Committee.  I notice, or perhaps I should say that I appreciate, I understand this letter to have been written as, you know, as some way expressing some support and understanding to the applicant's application.
	On page 2 thereof,  the paragraphs starting "gesien teen hierdie" etc, etc, I think it is the third paragraph, the last sentence thereof in that paragraph "in hierdie uitvoering van sy opgelegte taak moes hy mense wat die apartheidstelsel omver wou werp, seker elimineer.

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Seker elimineer?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, "seker elimineer".  Now, I - am I correct in saying that the support is being given to Mr De Ru and understanding being given of his situation by the Union on the basis that the people he killed would have been people who were - who would have committed the crimes in the process of trying to overthrow the Government, in other words political?  Is it on the understanding that the people he killed were, shall I say, terrorists or people who were trying to overthrow the Government?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Chairman, may I first of all say that as you see it is written  under the  name of Mr Jannie Els, I see it now for the first time this specific letter, I personally would never have put the sentence in here, because I don't think we sit in a position to judge basically, to make judgements regarding this specific sentence as it is standing here, to say that he had a job of eliminating these people.  What I - I have never seen the police task - written task as eliminating people, you know, I think when you do that, you do it with political motive or something like that, that is why you would do that, but it cannot be part and parcel of the job of a policeman and I find this an unfortunate sentence standing here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  All right, perhaps let me leave that.  And without saying that, I mean I don't want to convey that Mr Els actually wanted to say that but I thought he was just saying that we don't approve of what he did, but we understand it if he did - if he thought he was killing people who was terrorists, I didn't understand him to say that he was actually approving of that, but any way.

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Chairman, no I would like to address this point.  I do think in a farming community you will see that in many, many cases like for instance this slaughter of this little girl in Ficksburg, I cannot remember her name, she was killed, shot through the window and the people just disappeared, and if you talk to her parents today or to that community today, they would be glad if anyone gets hold of that criminal, that political criminal, because they see it as a political deed and there has not been forgiveness in that community, there is not reconciliation in that community, they still see it as a political act that got away unpunished, so I must convey to you that amongst the farming community, there would be tacit support, if not open support for political murderers to be dealt with extremely harshly, whoever gets hold of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Just finally, I am just - wouldn't you given as you say perhaps the systems of defence employed by the farmers, how the penetration would occur the like and the way these people would be well armed, wouldn't you expect that genuine APLA people and the like would be armed with firearms?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: I can turn the question around Chairman, that no ordinary criminal in his right mind would go into a  house knowing that those people are extremely heavily armed, that they are vigil and that they would kill on sight, they would shoot on sight, so my argument would be, the way I look at it reasonably, would be that you must be an extreme case when you go in with these odds stacked against you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Dr Gouws, this does not have relevance on this particular case but you mentioned that Mr Fourie visited you and shortly thereafter he was murdered.  This is a different matter which is part of our hearings, it will appear before us and maybe you can give us some additional information.  In what regard did Mr Fourie visit you on that particular day just before he died?  You don't have to answer this, if it is privileged information, but did it have to do with security matters?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: I just wanted to call on the Chairman, because it is very quickly.  My apologies Adv De Jager, Mr Fourie was a retired engineer and the visit had to do with activities concerning planning that he had done on the particular farm and in his conversation with me, he extensively discussed the security situation with me, he was deeply concerned about his personal experience of the worsening situation.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you  know what Mr Fourie's political affiliations might have been?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: I had heard and this is hearsay, I know that Mr Fourie was considered to be a very liberal person, I think he was a member of the Democratic Party, that is what I had heard.  I never personally asked him about his political affiliations.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, sorry to interrupt you Mr De Jager, is Mr Fourie one of the victims in this case or is it a different Fourie?

ADV DE JAGER: A victim in a different case, in the Verkeerdevlei case.

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't like to listen to that case because when that case comes, I may have to recluse myself.  When that particular matter comes, I may have to recluse myself so I will be happy if very little is said about that particular case because when an application in respect of that case comes, I would have to recluse myself.

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Chairman, I can perhaps help out - if I can be of any assistance in this because I feel as President of the Free State Agricultural Union - it doesn't matter if they are Black or White, if they apply for amnesty the full facts should be on the table.  If I must be or can be of assistance, and you feel the need should arise for that, I will try, or I will make myself available to help because the Free state for me and to find finally peace and to bury the past and to get rid of those that we can carry on with our lives, I think it is very, very important.  But may I add at the same time with your discretion allowed, I am very disturbed Chairman, that the Agricultural Union should be here today and not senior police people and senior political people, because they can testify about what I am talking about, what I have been talking about here today perhaps much more intimate detail.  We in the farming community at present regard the policemen sitting in jail being dealt with already through the judicial system etc. as the poor little foot soldiers down at the bottom of the barrel and they pay a price for a much larger and a much bigger barrel where they had been tiny little pawns basically in a total game and that is the view I would say most of the farming community holds.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Thank you Chairman.

MS THABET: No further questions, Mr Chairman.