Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: If it was suggested to you that the Allan Taylor unit broke up at the time of the trial or the arrest of the accused in the Ramlakan matter and was never regrouped, what would your comment be?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I would doubt that very much Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Although you don't have any information about specific persons who were actually members during 1987 and 1989?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I can't recall that portion.

ADV PRIOR: And you worked closely with Mr Botha, did you not?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: So it was virtually, it would have come to your attention had there been active members, other than Nxiweni involved at Allan Taylor?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, there definitely were active members, there definitely were, I just can't recall the names.

ADV PRIOR: During the arrests of the accused involved in the Ramlakan trial, was a DLB also discovered at Allan Taylor?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I actually can't recall specifically but there were weapons recovered, yes.

ADV PRIOR: And I understand standard procedure for example a container, that would be dusted for prints?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: I mean that is written in the book?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: On this occasion, after the arrest of Nxiweni, you discovered a DLB at the Allan Taylor residence, in a storage room?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Was that dusted for prints?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, not at all Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Against procedure?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Against procedure Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And we have gone through this with the other applicants, there was a golden opportunity to prosecute Nxiweni and have him removed out of circulation for a number of years, on the strength of the ammunition and explosives and that DLB?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, I heard that evidence given.

ADV PRIOR: Can you maybe advance a reason why there was this departure from the normal practice?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I have to concur with the evidence given previously by the other applicants.

ADV PRIOR: Unless the decision was already to eliminate Nxiweni, and not to bother about investigating any charges against him?  That would seem to fit the scenario, would it not?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I am unaware of that particular setup as you are outlining it now Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: It seems to my mind that Nxiweni was unlikely to be a person to be turned, I am talking about 1988?  Would you agree?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I agree Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Can we then accept that the only reason why Nxiweni was then detained or arrested, was for purposes of his elimination?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I am unable to answer that Mr Chairman, my Commanders would have to answer that.

ADV PRIOR: Well, what was your sense, you worked very close to Botha?  I mean surely he would have discussed with you what the strategy would be, would have been?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Sorry, there is too much noise from down here, I couldn't hear anything.

ADV PRIOR: I will repeat it.  I just get a sense from replies that I have heard today and over the last couple of days, that everyone seemed to just have their own agenda.  Surely Botha would have discussed with you what was to happen with Nxiweni, that there was a plan to have him arrested and once he was arrested or detained or abducted, whatever the position was, whether to prosecute him, to turn him or whatever?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when this gentleman was arrested, I wasn't even in this country.

ADV PRIOR: Where were you?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was away, I was in Swaziland.  So, I wasn't aware of this.

ADV PRIOR: All right.  The weapon you used to kill Mr Nxiweni, what was that?  Was it also a Scorpion?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I never shot Mr Nxiweni.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Du Preez shot him, you were together, acting together?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Scorpion.

ADV PRIOR: It was a Scorpion, and he was only shot once?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: It seems from the post mortem report at page 510, in bundle 4 Mr Chairman, one sees the entry wound on the left side of the skull, probably just behind the left ear and exiting on the right hand side.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I see that and concur with that Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Was he shot from very close range?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Was it almost a contact shot or can't you say?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was very, very close indeed Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: What, a few inches or a few millimetres or a few centimetres?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Like that.

ADV PRIOR: He was laying, standing, seated?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: He was standing Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Was lime also, I think you said that, all right, just one other aspect, you said Taylor had begun or had started to dig the grave for Nxiweni?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: Himself?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Himself, yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: That is what he said in his amnesty application.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't know what he said in his amnesty application.

ADV PRIOR: Was it unusual that he should have dug the grave?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, not when you knew Mr Taylor, Mr Chairman, no.

ADV PRIOR: I want to deal with Fila Ndwandwe's incident.  This was a, the foray into Swaziland was a well planned operation, was it not?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Given the evidence we have heard today, General Steyn, et al Mr Botha over the last few days, would I be correct in understanding that the planning was such that the risk of things going wrong, was reduced to a very, very bare minimum?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman, that is right.

ADV PRIOR: And obviously you people didn't want to spend any more time than you had to, in Swaziland, after the abduction of Ms Ndwandwe?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And I would also like to believe that you would have planned the whole operation that you would have been able to return before the border post closed at ten o'clock on the same day?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We had planned that Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: In other words, you left yourself sufficient time to get back to the border post, to exit Swaziland?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

ADV PRIOR: It would be dangerous to remain back in Swaziland, particularly if word had got out that she had been abducted by the Security Branch?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well, it wouldn't have been ideal to be there.

ADV PRIOR: Precisely.  Now, what time did you get to the border fence, that was where obviously you had got through a hole in the fence or whatever, the fence was cut or whatever it was, near Onverwacht.  What time was that approximately?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Half past eight, 9 o'clock Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: That seems to be Colonel Forster's recollection as well.  Now from there to Culel, or to Lavumisa, which is on the Swazi side, how far is that approximately by vehicle?  Less than 50 kilometres?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: About 30?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: About 30 Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Would it have taken you more than an hour and a half to leave Onverwacht where you had dropped off Botha and Ndwandwe to get back to Lavumisa, to travel that distance to the border post?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was very, very wet, the road was very muddy, that is why only the vehicle, the 4 x 4 could continue.  To go back on that same broken road, the road was pretty mushed up from merely getting there.

ADV PRIOR: All right, just look at page 443 of bundle 4.  You were in the vicinity where the road that looks like a dirt road, crosses the border, is that correct, the international line?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: So would you have driven back to the crossroad with Hluti?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: And then you would have turned to the south towards Lavumisa?