Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm the one who mentioned the fan.  When she fainted we set the fan on because we wanted her to regain her consciousness.  We did not take that to her nose and even when we poured the water we wanted her to wake up, regain her consciousness.

MR STOFILE: Now you mentioned that you poured water but you denied it earlier on.  I just want to draw it to your attention.  You just mentioned that you poured water?

CHAIRPERSON: I think there's been a bit of a confusion here Mr Stofile.  He denied the part about pouring water down the nostrils but he said that they did pour water on her and used the fan in an endeavour to revive her after she had lost consciousness.

MR STOFILE: I'm indebted to the chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how her clothes got wet, etc and they couldn't take her to Wellington.

MR STOFILE: And after the victim regained consciousness you then after assaulted her together with the others?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I left once she regained consciousness.

CHAIRPERSON: We know you left, you said you left, but what is being put to you is that Ms Matoti contends that once she was revived after having lost consciousness she was again assaulted by your colleagues including yourself?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I had already gone by the time, I cannot dispute that she was later assaulted because I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still saying that you left her while she had fainted?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I left her after she regained consciousness.

MR STOFILE: When she fainted you didn't see any need to take her to a doctor?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: She was going to be taken to the doctor but I left the place, I was not present there.

MR STOFILE: I put it to you that my instructions are that you were there throughout the period of the assault and you are the one who drove her away from the Norwood security offices.  You didn't leave her behind.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I am going to answer that question the sixth time, I was not present when she was taken somewhere else, this was for the sixth time giving the same response to that question.

MR STOFILE: Further than that I put it to you that you actually drove her to Lebodi not Engangaliswe at first, to Lebodi Police Station.  You were driving the vehicle and there were five of you in the vehicle.  She was in between all, let me not make it long.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Where in Lebodi because I was never in Lebodi.  I left the office leaving Mrs Matoti behind.  There was nothing like that.

MR STOFILE: She says you took her to Lebodi Prison but she was refused to be admitted at the prison and why the victim remembers this, she says on the way to Lebodi you stopped the car and suggested that - you know they use the word "marangwenwe" and then you turned in to ...(indistinct), you turned into the forest next to Kogang then one of your colleagues persuaded you not to do that and asked you to proceed to Lebodi.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I've been denying this over and over again.  There's only one question that I cannot agree with, I've been denying that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's quite clear that what he says - I mean it's not a trial situation, you don't have to put the whole version.  We know that he's going to deny anything about taking her away.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Chair, I just wanted to remind that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stofile carry on, I'm just saying that we can expect what the answer is going to be.

MR STOFILE: Yes.  Anyway, the instructions are that at Lebodi you went out together with one who was in front and then she remained with the two behind and then you came back and reported that the prison is full, there are no females there, in fact the males have been occupying the female side and then you had to go back and debated amongst yourselves.  I know you're going to deny it but I'm trying to make you recall it, perhaps you'll be able to recall that?  Then you debated and decided on the spot that you must take her to Lusikisiki Prison?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I think I am not on trial here and I'm here to tell the truth and not lying when saying that I left Mrs Matoti in the security offices.  If you want to persuade me to say yes as if I'm on trial, there's nothing, that no one persuaded me to ask for - to apply for amnesty.  I cannot lie.  That ...(indistinct) that you are saying is not true but what is true is the one that I'm telling now and the truth is coming out of me, it's coming from me, no one forced me to ask for an apology for Mrs Matoti, I did not do that under duress.

MR STOFILE: In the light of that strong denial let me ask you - the witness insists that you are the one driving but the long and short of it, I'm not pursuing because I take it that you are going to deny that but ultimately the witness says you went to pick up petrol, you put a blanket so that he's not seen by the attendants then you drove to Gangula, you changed your mind from Lusikisiki and say you are tired, you must take her to Engangaliswe.  I know you're going to deny but I put it because the witness is affirmative about that.
	Chair, there's another aspect of the assault, if he has got no response to that because I take it unless he's going to - because I take it he's going to deny.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can assume he's going to deny from his previous responses.

MR STOFILE: The victim says that at the time she admitted she was being assaulted and she was lying like this on the chair, you and the others you were putting burnt cigarettes, force it down her throat.  Not -  you and the others, she doesn't know the name of the others.  What do you say to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say burnt cigarettes were they actually burning or were they just stubs that had been stamped out?

MR STOFILE: Stubs, burnt cigarettes.

CHAIRPERSON: Burnt stubs, they weren't hot, to burn?

MR STOFILE: They were actually forced down her throat.
What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There is nothing like that.

MR STOFILE: Is it perhaps you have forgotten about that and due to the lapse of time?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said I requested you to give me an opportunity to tell you this story because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Siqhola, you're being asked questions now, we've heard you say that and Mr Stofile's got the right to answer you, ask you questions so if you could please just answer his questions?

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chair.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Can you repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: He said is it possible that because of the duration of time that has passed you may have forgotten that cigarette stumps or stubs were put down her throat when she was sitting in the chair in the office in Norwood?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said that I cannot dispute that.  Maybe it happened when I was not there but when I was there it did not happen, I deny that.

MR STOFILE: Do you also - are you disputing that in your presence not only you but the others did exactly that, some of you - are you disputing that?  In your presence?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not see them.

MR STOFILE: The victim further states that - I'm putting the question to you that this thing of canvas was not done once it was done several times from about eleven, twelve in the morning in between the other assaults, you wait until she recovers then you do it not once, it was several times.  That's what the victim says.  You also do not remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It happened once.

MR STOFILE: You have been wanting to be given an opportunity to state it on your own, can you tell me about the assault part if there is anything that you've left, you've been wanting to relate your story.  Can you tell me now, I'm giving you an opportunity, whatever we've left about the assault part.  Either by you or the others?