Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I think just before re-examination, Mr Wills, I just ask the other representatives if they have got any questions, further cross-examination arising out of this new evidence we have heard.  Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Yes Mr Chairman, I do have certain further questions I wish to put.  I have noticed Mr Hlongwane, while you have been cross-examined by my learned friend Mr Patel, that you refer to separate sheets of paper that don't appear to be part of your affidavit.  Is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, that is not true.  It is a lie.

MR HEWITT: I have also observed that you referred to those separate sheets of paper which are at the front of the table where you are sitting, whenever you are asked to give the names of people who performed certain deeds and were associated with you, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I look at the names of people just to refresh my mind.  I do not know whether it's not allowed, and I'm sorry if it's not.

MR HEWITT: All right.  Okay.  Those separate sheets of paper, do they contain, and from what I have seen from here, it looks like they contain lists of typed names, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.  Those are the names of the Black Cats.  Names which are typed down.

MR HEWITT: How many lists do you have in front of you there, separate from your affidavit of people's names?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: One, I only have one.

MR HEWITT: And the other document upon which your left hand is now, what are those documents that you have there as well?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Let me take it one by one.  The paper I'm holding is names of the Black Cats in the leadership ... (intervention)

MR HEWITT: All right.  Just let's just do this - just wait.  Let us just do this step by step so we know what we're talking about.  The first document that you handed.  How many separate pages do you have there?  How many separate pages do you have there now?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: There are two.

MR HEWITT: Only two?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: And do each of those pages, does it have typing on them or handwriting?  Okay, okay sure.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: They are all typed.  Both of them are typed.  One it's with me and the other is with my legal representative.

MR HEWITT: Yes.  And the typing on each of those sheets of paper, are they all names of people?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: And are there names of Black Cats there?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names of members of the South African Police there?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names there of leaders of the IFP in Ermelo, for example?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names there of leaders of the IFP in Davula or Davel?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names there on that list of the higher structures of the IFP?  For example, the leadership in Ulundi.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, they are not here.  The people who are here are Black Cats, police, and the leadership in Ermelo and Davel.  Not even a single one from Ulundi is mentioned.

MR HEWITT: Right.  Now, you told us the various people who's names appear there.  Are the names of the police on your lists, are they under a heading of some sort?  In other words, do all the names of the policemen appear under a heading like the South African Police?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No.  I've just written "Police, Davula Inkatha leadership, Ermelo", and that's how it's written.

MR HEWITT: Is that at the top of each list?  Are the names in categories?  That's what I want to know.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, they are mixed up.  I just wrote them as I remembered the names.

MR HEWITT: But they're typed, are they?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, they are.

MR HEWITT: Now, are you saying to us that you might have  a policeman's name, like a white policeman's name and directly under it a black mayor's name of Davel, or are they separate under headings of white policemen, members of IFP at Davel?  That's what I want to know about your lists.

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't it be easier if he had sight of it instead of spending all this time trying to extract it?

MR HEWITT: Well, the reason I'm doing this, Mr Chairman, I don't know what other information may be on there that the witness has written himself which might be privileged.  That's why I'm not venturing into that field.  But if they can be handed up with consent I don't mind, but that's obviously a matter which my learned friend Mr Wills must address his mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know what Mr Wills' attitude is.

MR WILLS: I'm not sure which documents are being referred to.  I'd like to have a quick look at them before I ... (intervention)

MR HEWITT: Well, before we do that, Mr Chairman, I would like to ask just one question before we do that.  Who gave you those lists?  Who gave you those lists that we're talking about with all these people's names on it?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, listen, nobody gave me the list.  I'm the one who type or write down all the list, because I wanted to refresh my memory with the list.

MR HEWITT: Did you do the typing of those names?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, they were typed by my girlfriend from KwaZulu-Natal, not from Ermelo, but KwaZulu-Natal.

MR HEWITT: Right.  And on that list are there names of people that are not referred to in your affidavit, because we've heard that that is the position in your evidence today?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, since I had to type it.  I wanted to refresh my memory.  So it's possible.

MR HEWITT: So, at the time you made your affidavit, you didn't remember those people's names but you subsequently, after making your affidavit, you got your girlfriend to type the names of certain persons that are not mentioned in your affidavit, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, if you are here you might have heard that some things that I remembered later, and I'll mention them if I do remember.

MR HEWITT: Yes, we know that.  Those lists that we've been asking you questions about, those list, were they all typed up by your girlfriend after you made this affidavit in support of your amnesty application?  That's all I want to know now.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: So, you remembered the names of people on that typed list your girlfriend typed out that are not in your affidavit?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: And you remembered them much later than you made the affidavit?  Correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, you are correct.

MR HEWITT: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Black?

MR BLACK: I've no questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: I have two short questions, Mr Chairman.  Might I just at the outset, I'm unsure whether I did this initially under cross-examination, one of accused that has been indicted, that has also been mentioned here, is also Bafana Oscar Khumalo.  I'm unsure whether I included him in that group.  He's also one of the people who are accused and who is currently making use of his rights not to implicate himself.
	Now, Mr Hlongwane, I could not help it but notice your tendency to initially forget incidents and then after leading questions by my learned friend Patel, come up with specific names and specific people who did things.  Now, as far as the hacking to death incident that you canvassed is concerned.  You mentioned that Mdu was present as well, Is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.