Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, there could have been other people but I can't remember.  I can't remember exactly who the people were because normally we will do these things while being only three, Managa, Nesamari and myself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there any occasion when you were joined by other policemen during such interrogations?

MR RAMALIGELA: No.  In the particular office we were only three except that the late Mr Sifuwa who will come just to make sure that the report is handed to Thohoyandou office.  And if Mr Ramushwana was able to hear what was happening he'll come around as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ramaligela, Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela will give evidence that you are the person in charge of their interrogation and you are the person who tortured them the most.  Do you deny this?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I can't deny that I tortured them so much or extensively, however what I can not agree on what they are saying is that personally I didn't really touch them personally on my own.  I can't remember touching them.  Well yes, they were tortured, because they were arrested and I was also part of the people who ...(indistinct) them.  We did deprive them of their rights.  We detained them and some of them were not really properly functioning at our works, and some of their businesses were not operating as normal as it would appear. (The mike is not on)

MS MTANGA: If you say you did not torture Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela, who are the persons who tortured them?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Hasn't he said he can't deny?

MS MTANGA: He said he didn't touch them, he can't deny but...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Well it is a little confusing because on the one hand he can't deny but also from his previous evidence he hasn't touched them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who tortured Chikororo and Mahumela?  Those two victims.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I am quite sure that he, as far as the people who are going to speak they will be able to explain who tortured Mr Chikororo.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am asking you. Do you who tortured Mr Chikororo and the other gentleman, Mr Mahumela?  If you can't remember, say so.  If you can remember who did it, please tell us.  It is a simple question.

MR RAMALIGELA: But I can remember with regard to Mr Chikororo, he was tortured by Mr Nesamari.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question that has been put to you by Ms Mtanga is that Mr Chikororo will come here and give evidence that you personally tortured him.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I can't deny that as well, that I did torture them, that is why I am trying to explain that I can't remember vividly.  The fact that he was one of the arrested or detained, yes I do remember that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence in chief you were explicit on this issue.  You said you didn't touch Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela.  How can you now say during cross-examination that you can't deny that you tortured Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela, when you were initially were very very explicit, you were firm.  You knew you had never touched them.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes it is true.  I am trying to explain that these people were tortured.  I was part of the people who were torturing the two, the detainees.  However personally I don't remember touching Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What Miss Mtanga is saying is that Mr Chikororo will come and say you, and only you, tortured him and Mr Mahumela will also come and say the same thing, that you and not anyone else, that you personally tortured him.  You would dispute that, is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I can't remember vividly touching them on my own or personally.  However, if they are saying...

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember vaguely whether you ...

MR RAMALIGELA: No, not the least.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is not the impression that I personally heard during your evidence in chief.  You were crystal clear on this issue that you never touched them.   I just want to remind you of your evidence in chief.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: The victims will be giving evidence on the extent of their injuries, especially the visible ones.  Are you able to tell this committee how seriously wounded were these people that you were torturing, at the end of your torturing session? How seriously wounded were they?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to this case I think I did explain to the committee that it is true that I tortured people, I assaulted them, I kicked them.  I did everything that I mentioned on these people.  That I am also able to realise I was really torturing people, so much that I am not saying that any person who may come and say contrary to I am saying, however what I have explained is that the people that I work with directly were...
(break in recording)

MR RAMALIGELA: That's true.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaligela it is the victims view that the way you present your evidence regarding the extent of the tortures on them, you are under playing the seriousness of the wounds they incurred as a result of your torturing.  What do you say to this?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to the seriousness of the wounds, I can't tell exactly how big they were, because on our own, they couldn't tell us exactly how badly injured they were because I couldn't see any evidence, or anything coming from the hospital and I am not saying I am disputing that this people had, I couldn't see anything visible or written by the doctor that this is how they were injured.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaligela, Dr Farisani whom you have testified that you seriously beat him more than all the victims that you are applying for, he had blood coming out of his ears.  Do you dispute this?

MR RAMALIGELA: No I don't dispute it.

MS MTANGA: Can I be given a second, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani will also testify to the effect that his torture went on for two days and it was two full days.  The fourth and the fifth of January 1982.  Do you dispute this?

MR RAMALIGELA: No I don't dispute that.  I did say that in my evidence initially.

MS MTANGA: I have also been asked by Dr Farisani to ask you what was the basis of his arrest?  What was the grounds for arresting him?

MR RAMALIGELA: Dr Farisani was arrested because we received information that during the time of the plan of the police station bombing, he was told about it and he was quite aware and that there were some two people who were looking for him whom we thought they were the same people who bombed the police station.  That is why he was arrested.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Mr Meyer, do you have any re-examination?

MR MEYER: Nothing, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sir, you've just, Mr Ramaligela, just stated now that the reason why Mr Farisani was arrested was because you received information that connected him to the planning of the attack at Sibasa police station.  When did you receive information that connected him to the attack?

MR RAMALIGELA: It was after we had arrested these other people who had link with the Dean.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, you arrested him on the basis of the information that was obtained by you when you were interrogating these suspects, some of the suspects that you have alluded to under paragraph 15.  Is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which information was obviously obtained when you had administered the various methods, unconventional methods of torture as you have testified to before us.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I, could you just repeat the question please?

SISI KHAMPEPE: You received information that connected Mr Farisani to the planning on the Sibasa police station attack and that information was obtained from the suspects that you had interrogated and subjected them to torture.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.