Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You were obviously interested in the AK47 as to defend yourself against the A Team and possibly the Security Police, is that correct?  I beg your pardon?  What is the answer Translator?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter did not get the answer because he doesn't wait until the interpreter finishes.

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Will you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR CORNELIUS: You considered the Security Police as your enemy and you were interested in the AK47, obviously to defend yourself against them and the A Team?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And finally, you testified that when this group left the room, you were suspicious?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: I am not sure what group you are referring to.  I said a lady went out of the room and after that I requested to go out to relieve myself.  Those who were left inside were only two.  They refused, they did not want us to go out.

MR CORNELIUS: You were suspicious?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, after that I became suspicious because we were chatting nicely with them.

MR CORNELIUS: I understand that.  Last question, they did arrive in a kombi on the scene, is that correct?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Will you please repeat the question Sir?

MR CORNELIUS: Lastly, they did arrive with a kombi at this specific house?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, but I cannot say they came with a kombi, but the kombi was parked there at the joint where they were before.  After being shot at, I heard the car starting.  I do suspect that the sound of the engine was the kombi, the E20.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Mbatha.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Has the Panel got any questions?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.

MS PATEL: Mr Mbatha, the other persons who were killed in the room that evening, can you tell us whether they were also involved in activities against the police during that time?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Ray - I know nothing about him concerning that, he was coming from Chesterville but he normally stayed at Ntuzuma.  He used to stay in the shebeen.  During those days the activists wouldn't be found in the shebeens, that is why they found him there. Ray was the on who went to wake us Sandile at his place because Ray had no knowledge about the whereabouts of the comrades.  Sandile woke up.  He had nothing much to do with politics, but he was staying at road 16, that is where a lot of things would happen, therefore they would see some of the things.  At least he was a bit older.  I can say the people who were that involved in politics was myself, Russell and Stanley.

MS PATEL: Okay and then finally, can you tell me, a number of cartridges were found in the room, can you recall whether any of the group that had come there, had come into the room to shoot?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: During the shooting, the people who came to us were three gentlemen and one lady and during the shooting she called them outside and they started the shooting.  I do not know who actually fired, but I had 9 bullets in my body or 9 bullet wounds in my body and the others, some would be found with 20 bullets in their bodies and the other one had 15 bullets, that is the information that I received while I was in hospital.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel.

ADV DE JAGER: Had there been a light in the room switched on when they were there and when the shooting happened?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, it was bright, but during the shooting it became dark, that is as far as I'm concerned, it just became dark because after feeling a burning sensation on my body, it was dark.

ADV DE JAGER: The door, when the shooting started, when the light was still burning, can you remember if the door had been open, or did they close the door when they left?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: The girl knocked and the door was closed.  It's not that it was locked, but he was just leaning against the door and she had closed the door.  When she whispered, she opened the door slightly and when they went out, they went out with pulling the door, they went out with the door, pulling it, that is.

ADV DE JAGER: Was the door closed then, when they went out?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, I can say so.  The door was opening into the inside therefore if you were going out, you would pull the door.  When they went out we were left all alone and the shooting started immediately.

ADV DE JAGER: I know it's very difficult to remember, it happened so many years ago and it's a rather confusing affair, but did they kick the door open before they started shooting, or did they just shoot through the door, or what did they do?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: There was no time when they hit the door because we were sitting there nicely.  I think when they went out they closed the door and they even shot at the door.  I think so because immediately after they went out, they started firing.  I think they were ready for the action and the house that we were in was very small.  I think it was the size of the space there from that table up to here.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it just one room?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: There was only one window, a small window.  I cannot remember very well but the house was very small and it had a very small window.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of light was there inside, before the shooting started?

MR SIBANYONI: Is Mr Mbatha listening to the interpreter or to the...you are not listening to the correct channel.  Can you help him Mr, I mean, use the channel there.

ADV DE JAGER: Just...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold on, hold on, they're just fixing up this thing, it's not working.

ADV DE JAGER: You say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold on, hold on, just a minute.  Just indicate to us when, Interpreters, just indicate when this thing is fixed up please.  I can't see, you'll have to tell us.

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Though I cannot remember, I think it was a bright lamp because some of the people who were there, I could still identify them, that is why I am saying I think the lamp was rather bright.  I can even tell you the clothes that they were wearing.  The other one was wearing a grey jacket and a jeans, with a sling body.  The lady was wearing a khaki trouser, a black jacked and a hat, though if it was dim I couldn't identify them.  The other one was wearing a cream jacket and some trouser and shoes.  If it was dim, I couldn't see those colours, but I still remember very well the colours that they were wearing.  I can say it was bright.

ADV DE JAGER: At the first house where you had been, they arrived there with a motor vehicle, is this correct?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Where - they did not come to the first house where we were sleeping, we were woken up by Sandile and Ray.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.  Where did you see the Nissan E 20 minibus?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: The minibus was 16 and we were at 16 road and 15 was up the hill on our way to sleep at Manzini's house.  You would see the car at road 16 and we even commented about this car and even Ray said that they had seen this car before, but we decided to go and sleep after that.

ADV DE JAGER: And then after the shooting did you hear a vehicle depart?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes and I heard where it accelerated and it left at a very high speed, I could hear that too.

ADV DE JAGER: Did it depart close to the house where the shooting took place, or was it a vehicle that had left far away from the house?