Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-18

HASSAN MALL: ... by the paragraph it can't, because a decision is taken.   Everybody is aware of the decision. They go looking for this woman.  They do not find her.  The following day they go there determined to carry out that decision.  They succeed in carrying out their decision and you, then you say here in the application form, "it was accidental."
	Now you have passed matric, and I am sure you must admit that by the most stretch of the imagination can it be said that Mrs Mphambane had died as a result of an accident? Her killing was intentional, is that not so?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: We had intentions Sir, to kill her.  We had intentions to kill the late Mrs Mphambane.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You see Mr Mphambane, the difficulty that we have is that it is not only paragraph 11 that you have been referred to wherein you seem to indicate that the decision of the ANC Youth League that was taken was not to kill her, but to discuss with her about her involvement or the allegations that she was involved in organising ADM members from Bele Location to kill ANC members.
	In your application when you were responding to the questions in paragraph 9, you go on to say, 
"The Youth League organised a meeting to tell Mrs Mphambane that what she was doing you were against".
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MS KHAMPEPE	146	MR MPHAMBANE
	And you go on to explain in your Annexure A in which you said contained the true fact of what happened that day, you go on to say. "... the Youth League decided...", do you have your Annexure A, now on the third line of your Annexure A you say,
"The Youth League decided to go to her house to discuss the above matter with her and we were a group of about 300".
Now unless you want to tell us that it was another meeting wherein the Youth League took a decision to meet with Mrs Mphambane in order to discuss the allegations that she was organising members of the ADM to kill the ANC members, we cannot, I cannot reconcile what you are saying now in respect of paragraph 11, to what is also contained in your application in respect of the other paragraphs.

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: There was one meeting on the 22nd, sorry the 26th of April, there was no second meeting on that particular day.  What I am referring to where I say that we tried to discuss with Mphambane, this was just to show that the Youth League made efforts to try to talk to Mrs Mphambane.  These were in vain, because when we tried to go to her house she would chase us away, swearing at us.

JUDGE WILSON: When you went to her house that night you say the house was open, she was not there and you went back to the school, is that so?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: ...(indistinct)

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes it is the truth, because we went back to school, but we did not go inside the school.

JUDGE WILSON: You see when you made your application you said,
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
JUDGE WILSON	147	MR MPHAMBANE
"When we approached her house she ran away before listening to us, what we were going to say, and we did not chase her".
That is not the same as coming and finding her house empty, is it?   But you now say you did not go into school, you told us that one of the comrades told you not to go, the police would find you there and you went to this house where you stayed in the three rooms.   Do you remember telling us that?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes Sir I did say so.

JUDGE WILSON: Now in your application in Annexure A you say,
"When we arrived at the school hall we decided to wait for her until the following morning.  During the course of the night we were busy discussing other matters pertaining to the way African Democratic Movement members were treating us.   We stayed in the hall for the whole night".
Where is this, going to somebody else's three rooms, and once again, a completely different version.   Which is the truth?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: The truth is we ended up going to our comrade's house.   By saying that we went to sleep at the school in my application, because there were so many of us, we could not all fit in into those rooms.   (Tape ends.)	.... whether they should go to the house or not.  This is where I think that they went to sleep at the school.

JUDGE WILSON: What you said is,
"We stayed in the hall for the whole night".
"WE", it's not other people, is it?    That is not true is it?   I just want to know why you put so many things into 
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
JUDGE WILSON	148	MR MPHAMBANE
your application that don't accord with the evidence that you have given here today.

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: The reason why there is a discrepancy between my evidence here today and my written application, what I am saying here today is the truth.   My saying that we slept at the school hall the whole night, we were one, I was one with the people who slept over at the school.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you were completing this application form were you and your friends all together, probably in one place?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes we gathered in the same place.  It was difficult to fill in this form as individuals because some of us are almost illiterate.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were you under some kind of stress?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, because when these applications arrived we had to fill them in and complete them the same day.  We were not given time to fill them in properly or give proper detail.  We were just given these application forms and were told to fill them in very quickly.  We were in a hurry.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who told you that you had to complete them quickly?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It was at the prison.  They would tell us that they had to post them immediately.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you not told that you could be legally assisted in the completion of such application forms if you so requested?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: No we were never told that.  I was surprised when I read a book on the amnesty of the Truth Commission that, because this application is quite lengthy, there must be someone who is legal who would help us.  I was surprised because when we filled in this form the circumstances were
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MS KHAMPEPE	149	MR MPHAMBANE
contrary to that.

HASSAN MALL: It may be convenient to take the adjournment at this stage.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think the Interpreters did not pick up your response.  (Question inaudible)

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: She was my aunt.  Her husband is my father's younger brother.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you know the deceased to have been a very active member of the ADM?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was she active because she was the organiser of the African Democratic Movement?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, because she would go to Bele to organise ADM.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mona was the Chief at the time.

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And by virtue of his position as Chief, was he the Chairman of the Council, you have actually - I think the previous applicant has referred to him as a member of a Council.   Was he a Chairman of the traditional Council - Mr Mona?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes Mr Mtsibele Mona was a Chief at the village.  We heard that Brig Qozo, saying that all the people that were headmen should go back to their status and they should join the ADM.  He came back and he resumed his seat as Headman again.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is he presently still alive?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes he is still alive.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he not considered a threat to the ANC
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MS KHAMPEPE	150	MR MPHAMBANE
to the extent that Mrs Mphambane was?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes he was perceived as a threat just like Mrs Mphambane.  When he accepted his seat as a Headman, that caused the violence and chaos in the village.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.