Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you were still busy with your case.  Yes, would you call your next witness please?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, thank you, sir.   May I call Elphina Motloung.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: (sworn states)

MR MAPOMA: Miss Motloung, where do you reside?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: I stay in Tokoza.

MR MAPOMA: Are you aware of the incidents that are the subject of this hearing?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: Yes, I know them.

MR MAPOMA: Amongst the deceased victims about this hearing is Vips Motloung, do you know that person?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: Yes, he is my son.

MR MAPOMA: The applicants are here to apply for amnesty in respect of the killing of Vips Motloung, amongst other persons.   What is your feeling about that application?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: I would like to know that I'm here since Thursday, I never heard a single one committing himself to having committed the crime.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, what does that mean to you then?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: It means they have not told me the truth about my son.

MR MAPOMA: Are you aware as to whether your son was a member of any political organisation?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: Yes, I know.

MR MAPOMA: Which organisation do you know that he was a member of?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: ANC Youth League.

MR MAPOMA: Did you get any reports of criminal activities committed by your son, did you ever get any reports of those criminal activities allegedly?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: None.

MR MAPOMA: The applicants say that they killed the deceased, amongst whom is your son, because those persons were engaged in criminal activities?

CHAIRPERSON: Because they killed Blanko and Bulelwa.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chair.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: If these people had not killed Blanko and Bulelwa, they would not have been killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer, madam?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: That was a question.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I want to get your view on that reason, what is your view on that?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: That they were criminals, or they are the ones who killed Bulelwa and Blanko?   Will you please repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: The applicants say they killed the deceased because the deceased killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: I don't believe that our sons are the ones who killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

MR MAPOMA: Now the applicants are applying for amnesty, and they also ask for forgiveness from the parents of the deceased persons.   What is your response to the request for forgiveness from the applicants?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: I would forgive them if they could give me Vips's head, I should say eyes and hair, if they can give me those things, I can forgive them, but if they cannot give me those things, I cannot.   I'm not satisfied that they killed him because he killed Bulelwa and Blanko.   If they argue that he was a criminal, I would not accept that.   I don't know how they can say he was a criminal.   His report does also indicate that he was going to school and he passed.  I'm just wondering what time he committed these crimes?

MR MAPOMA: Now is it your feeling that they are not supposed to be given amnesty because they have not told the truth?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: On my side, I think they have not divulged the truth and therefore I cannot forgive them, because it is not enough to say I forgive them whereas I am hurting inside.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Ms Motloung.   Thank you chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR MADASA: Mrs Motloung, are you saying if you had heard how Vips was killed, you would not oppose the amnesty application?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: I would object to it, because as a parent, they did not come to me to explain to me that my son was committing crime.   They, like parents, were supposed to give me a chance so I could speak to my son.

MR MADASA: I am saying, madam, if you had heard from them how Vips was killed, you would not oppose their application?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: If they could tell me exactly how he was killed, and therefore give me his body parts, I would not object to the application for amnesty.

MR MADASA: I cannot remember which applicant, but it was stated here by one of the applicants that Vips was killed at Khumalo by Manyala and others, did you hear that?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: Yes, I did hear about that.    If he was killed in Khumalo by Manyala and others, why then did they include Vips's name in the list, because they did not kill him?

MR MADASA: The list was not compiled by them.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think the point that the witness is making is that, to the extent that they are applying for amnesty in respect of the deceased, Vips Motloung, how can they be heard to say that they didn't kill him?

MR MADASA: Madam, the applicants said Vips was captured by them, but he was not killed with others, because he escaped and he was killed by Manyala, so they have told the hearing the extent of their involvement in Vips's capturing, they have not hidden that, but the killing, they say it was done by Manyala, they were not there.   They have admitted killing others, they had no reason to omit Vips, they've killed others, but they don't know who killed Vips, they think Manyala and others did so at Khumalo, that is what they are saying, but they captured him.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: Who captured him, who captured him with his own hands?

MR MADASA: They say Vips was captured by Manyala at Khumalo in a taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say in a taxi?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: So Manyala is the person who dealt with Vips?

MR MADASA: Oscar says Manyala and Ngosi captured Vips at Khumalo and they killed him.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: There is also one more of these who are applying for amnesty.   He says Vips was carrying a gun, he tried to shoot him and he fled.   What time, therefore, did they capture him?   Can I get an explanation on this one?

MR MADASA: Thank you, Mr Chair.   Sonti says Vips, he says they went to Khumalo to get others.   Vips Isaac Mbijana and Miles, they found them at Khumalo, but Vips escaped from them, ran away from them, they brought others to the shack, and later on Ngosi and Manyala hunted down Vips and they found him at Khumalo and they killed him.   So he escaped from Sonti and others.   So Vips was with Isaac Mbijana and Miles, but he escaped.   So Manyala and Ngosi found him later and they killed him.   So what I'm saying, madam, is that they cannot say anything further about Vips, because Vips was not in their hands.

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: I am now satisfied.   She was not in their hands, but the information they know.   Even though I was not residing at 6, some residents are saying after killing him, they were told that he was killed.   They too knew how he was going to be killed.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, just two questions, Mr Chair-person.   Ms Motloung, I was just looking at your statement and I noticed that you said you went to your uncle, Queen(?) Motloung, and he said to you that the children were killed by the Xhosa men, the SDU.   Now you have been listening to the applicants who were testifying here applying for amnesty.   Do you agree that they are not Xhosa men, some of them were speaking Sotho, others Zulu, and also others Xhosa, do you agree with me?

SELENA MDONBISIMENGE MOTLOUNG: Yes, I concur with that.

MR SIBANYONI: And then also you said that after you discovered that your son was killed, you went to the Peace Committee.   My question would be, why didn't you report this thing to the police?