Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know his first name, I only know his surname.

MR MALAN: What is his surname?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Thipe.
MR MBANDAZAYO
"A week after the above mentioned people left, I sold or my sister told me that two women was going to come and stay in my shack.  I will go and live with my sister while the two other women would go and live in my shack.  On the 14th of July 1993 the two black women moved into my shack and on the 16th of July me, Vinger, Thonda moved the weapons to Thonda's shack on Monyakeng, Wesselsbron.  On Friday the 22nd of October" ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you given us Thonda's other name, Thonda, it's Paulos Mohape?
MR MBANDAZAYO
"On Friday the 22nd of October 1993 I was questioned by the police with regards to the weapons.  I said that I do not know where the weapons are but later on I took the police to Thonda's shack where I dug out the weapons.  I saw the weapons and I assumed there's got to be four of them.  I was then arrested".
Now Mr Mazete can you explain the omission of the question of the money which you mentioned before the Magistrate in your statement.  In this statement you told the Committee that Bhani came on Sunday and also on Monday, given R150,00 after you have counted money but in your statement to Capt Hugo there's nothing of that sort.  Can you explain that to the Committee?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It would be possible that in those two statement as they were I did not mention all this facts.  There'd be other issues which I would not include in other statements like this one.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Mr Chairman at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR MALAN: Are you saying that your explanation is that you didn't include all the facts in all the statement, that's why there's no reference to the R9 000,00 in the statement to the police?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.  It would be possible that I put it in.  I'm surprised that I did not say about it in this ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: Why are you surprised?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Because I did not mention it.

MR MALAN: So should you have mentioned it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Because it was not my intention to mention it in the first place.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that it did indeed happen?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So did you count the money?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: So what did happen?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Nothing happened.

MR MALAN: Can you please try and lead me through this again.  You said you see that in your statement to the police you did not mention the R9 000,00, but you did in your statement to the Magistrate.  Is that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You also said you were surprised, you are surprised to see that you did not mention in your statement the R9 000,00 to the police, in your statement to the police. ?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now what is the story behind the R9 000,00, tell us about the R9 000,00?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: There's nothing about the R9 000,00.

MR MALAN: Why did you tell the Magistrate about the
R9 000,00?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To act the evidence I gave before the Magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: To do what?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To act on my evidence which I gave before the Magistrate.

MR MALAN: Did you hear - what's his name, Mr Joao De Castro, did you hear him when he gave evidence here earlier this morning?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you hear him say that according to their calculations approximately R8 700,00 was stolen?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It might be so, even if I don't remember.

MR MALAN: No but did you hear him say that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Can you explain why the amount that you mentioned, the R9 000,00 and his assessment of about
R8 700,00 is so close to each other?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I just picked the R9 000,00 so I don't know anything about the R8 700,00.

MR MALAN: When you were asked, when you were taken through the statement about the R9 000,00 by your counsel you explained it, you said the R9 000,00 that you mentioned in your statement to the Magistrate is not true and you were then asked to explain why that was mentioned.  At that stage your answer, which I wrote down, is that you told it to the police so that they would release you.  Is that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But Mr Mazete that statement was not to the police, that statement was to the Magistrate, isn't that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: You're correct.

MR MALAN: And to the police you didn't mention it at all.  Isn't that also correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: You are not correct.

MR MALAN: Let me put it differently, in your statement to the police it is not mentioned at all.  Isn't that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now you also said that when you gave your evidence to the Magistrate, when you made the statement to the Magistrate, that was a free statement, in fact if I remember correctly, that was about the only statement or part of the statement that you denied, the rest you confirmed.  Isn't that also so?  Well it's not really necessary for you to reply to that.  Let me just ask you this again.  Could you give your explanation to us as to why the R9 000,00 was mentioned in the statement to the Magistrate but not in your statement to the police?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I have already told the police about the    R9 000,00 maybe those people who were writing omitted it.

MR MALAN: But isn't that a very crucial part of their case?  Why would they have omitted such a crucial part of their case?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't have a reason, I don't have any idea why did they leave it out.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why did you tell it to the Magistrate?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: As I've already explained that I told him just that because I was making a confession statement.  Why he wrote it I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told him this, you made it up?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not tell him that I made it up.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you invented this R9 000,00 you've told us.  Is that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you told the Magistrate about the  R9 000,00 you'd been given to look after?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  Why did you tell it to the Magistrate?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: But this is how I made my confession statement and because I've already mentioned it to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: But why tell it to the Magistrate, if police hadn't written it down?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not know, I mentioned this before the Magistrate as I did before the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you chose to mention it.  Is that what you're saying?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You thought it would help you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember you gave evidence yesterday?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember saying: "I made a statement to the Magistrate and said I'd been given
R9 000,00 and R50,00 after the money had been counted"?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: "I was forced to do so.  Even before I made the statement, I was threatened by the police that I should tell the Magistrate"?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not tell him.

CHAIRPERSON: You've just told us you told the Magistrate and you chose to mention it because you thought it would help you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: "I was forced to do so.  Even before I made this statement I was threatened by the police that I should tell the Magistrate".

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not tell him.