Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Just for our record purposes it's paginated page 10 of that bundle F.

GEORGE BIZOS: And 2120 is page ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Page 2120 of our ...(indistinct)

MS COLERIDGE: 66, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct)
"MR MCNALLY:   The following project I want to treat with you is the project with the name "Apie", meaning the project where the foetus of a baboon be hung at the house of Archbishop Tutu.  Do you want to answer on that?"
		"I refuse to answer questions about that because it may incriminate me in the future."
		"Then we come to the bomb incident in Athlone.  You heard the full details this morning, what is your stance on this?"
		"Thereon I also refuse to answer questions, it may also incriminate me in the future."
Did you say that, and did you claim privilege?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you refer to the end of your cross-examination, which I am going to refer to you and then I will ask you a question.  I want to read that into the record.
"CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BURGER:  (on page 66)  Just shortly please, did you during your term of service as Chairman of the CCB, ever get approval from higher authority to carry out deeds of violence internally?"
		"During my time the Special Services were - never ever approached me on any such operations." (sic)
		"It was insinuated to you that Dr Webster ..."
It doesn't matter.  Now do you still want to persist that you did not claim privilege for those things?

EDWARD WEBB: I never denied it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.  That is all for my purposes, if your counsel wants to ask you any more questions about it, he can do so in re-examination.
	Now, isn't it a function of a higher officer to take responsibility for the action of his underlings?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the Harms Commission, were the operatives  in any way let down by you and Mr Verster in relation to their authority?

EDWARD WEBB: Not by me, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: By Mr Verster to your knowledge, whilst you were sitting there?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well why protect a Colonel and let the other people that were authorised to do the dirty work, hang out so to speak?

EDWARD WEBB: I didn't know the operatives, it not excuse Chairperson, I tried to protect Joe Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, when you tried to protect Verster you knew that Verster had authorised them.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that consistent with what is expected of a high-ranking officer in the Army?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you did it nevertheless.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now throughout your evidence, including at page 2120, you seem to concede that if there was anything to happen in relation to the murder or serious injury or serious damage to anyone within the country, you would have had to take it to higher authority.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now who told you that, when did he tell you and under what circumstances was that said to you?

EDWARD WEBB: It was during the briefing given to me by Gen Joubert before I took over.

GEORGE BIZOS: Implicit in that conversation was an indication to you that there was a scenario which might occur that the harm mentioned before would be directed against some individuals internally.  Did you ask Gen Joubert, your predecessor, "But what are you talking about, what is this business about death or killing or damage to property that I've got to go to higher authority for?  On what basis are you telling me this?  Who is going to do it and on whose authority and who will come to me and who will approach me to get authority?"  Did you ask any of those questions?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

EDWARD WEBB: As I testified yesterday, Gen Joubert never spoke to me directly about internal operations.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've already settled that aspect by your answer to the previous question, that Gen Joubert expected someone might come to you for higher authority for internal operations.  From one General to the other, one would have expected "What are you talking about, who is going to come and ask me to commit murder or blow up a building or play any other dirty trick against any individual that I have to go to higher authority for?  What am I letting myself in for?"  Isn't that the natural reaction of one General to another, if what you are saying is true?

EDWARD WEBB: It should be like that, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why wasn't it as it ought to be?

EDWARD WEBB: Because it was left in the air.

GEORGE BIZOS: But how matters of life and death be left in the air, General?

EDWARD WEBB: As I said yesterday, Gen Joubert never told me, never spoke to me about the fact that I could operate internally.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, we've already settled that, Sir, the question was, how could one General to another leave matters of life and death in the air?  Please answer that question.  It wasn't asked of you yesterday, it is asked of you for the second time now, please answer it.

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well what does that mean, you don't know?  Either you are suffering selective amnesia, or you are not telling the truth and that is the reason why you cannot answer that simple question.

EDWARD WEBB: I have no explanation, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we'll leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, General Webb, this briefing that you had with Gen Joubert, did he make no mention of Region 6?

EDWARD WEBB: No, he told me, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that's an internal - and he told you that's an internal region?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, the details I got from the CCB, the detailed briefing.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to understand your answer saying that he didn't talk about internal operations or he didn't mention ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: Internal operations, no he didn't speak about that.  But by insinuation, because we founded this internal section where Special Forces were already operative internally, by insinuation yes, we had the capacity to operate internally.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and then the actual modus between how operatives conducted themselves in Region 9 and Region 6, was there any difference?  There was any difference stated, was there?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, except because in Region 6 there were former police officers and it gave them further possibilities.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Bizos.

MR LAX: Sorry, just if I might.  Who briefed you together with Verster on the CCB itself?

EDWARD WEBB: General Joubert ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You said you had a briefing with Verster.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR LAX: Was Verster present when Joubert briefed you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So who was with Verster when he briefed you on the CCB itself?

EDWARD WEBB: Col Verster briefed me on my own and then also with regard to Region 6.  Staal Burger was present and Verster was also present.

MR LAX: So when you were briefed on each region separately, was each Manager of that region present?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Verster and Hymer briefed me about the rest of the CCB and Staal Burger and Joe Verster were present when he briefed me about Region 6.

MR LAX: Yes, and just one other aspect if you'll allow me.  Sorry to intervene Mr Bizos.
	You seem to be giving the impression that you were just a conduit for authority, that if there was a decision and it involved a killing, well you would have just passed it up the line, but surely that isn't so, you had to make a qualitative choice yourself?

EDWARD WEBB: Of course, Chairperson, I would have made a contribution.

MR LAX: And if you thought something was a non-starter you would have refused it?

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.