Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And I'm correct to state that these taxi's were attacked because they were seen to be collaborating with the comrades?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair you cannot just say that the reason to be, it would - that if they were not working with them then they would be able to defend those people who are there, so it's obvious that they were working together with them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This was as result of the assumption that they were working with them, you assumed that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair as I've explained, yes they were working together, not that because we were assuming.  Those taxi's were no longer actually entering for where we were staying.  Therefore there were community cars which were escorted by the police when people are going to and from work, and they would wait for them there by the police station and the community cars would actually take them.  The taxi's were not actually coming in here at ...(indistinct).  In actual fact they were actually working with the comrades.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's move on to the Ndwedwe patrol.  Is it correct that when you were patrolling the area you were doing that for the soul purpose of curbing crime, to maintain law and order in that area?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair I was not trained to finish violence.  What I was trained ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry I missed that, he's speaking away from the speaker I can't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu the interpreter missed what you said.  If you can just speak into the microphone please and just repeat what you've said so it can be interpreted.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: There at Ndwedwe we were posted there to protect IFP people, and now we were told that the comrades are bothering IFP people.  Secondly, the police who were working there were no longer residing in their areas because the comrades chased them away, they were staying in the police station.  That is the situation that we went there to correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps to sum it up, you're saying the police force went to that area to protect IFP people in the area.  Is that the position?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes that is what we were doing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If I may interpose Mr Mpshe, how were you to protect IFP members in that area?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair if it happens that they're being attacked or maybe they were in a meeting, we should actually accompany them and so on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that was the protection you were supposed to give them?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now the house to which you went, you know, when you were parked somewhere and you could not go down to that house and a van came with reinforcements - the house to which you went, what was happening?.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I did explain Chair that there were people who were on the yard there, and amongst them a shot actually fired, a gun directed to us where the truck 325 was standing.  We couldn't actually use the truck to go there to find them quickly so we just forced in that we actually have to use the walkie-talkie to the police station to get a smaller van so that we can quickly go there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now the shots that were fired, were they being fired at any IFP person in the neighbourhood or to the police who were up on the mountain?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair we were the people who were there on that hill, so it means it was actually directed to us because the bullet crossed our truck.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And not to any IFP member down there, not so?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: No there were no IFP people around.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's move down to the school where people were shot as they were running out of the school premises.  Are you in a position to can tell this Committee as to the composition of this crowd that ran out, whether there were children and women, and that kind of thing?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I did explain Chair, that it were elderly who were there who had their meeting.  I don't remember seeing a child around there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By elderly people that would include also women?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before you could open up fire on them, did they say anything to you or did anything happen to you - or you just saw them run out and you started shooting?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes to what, you just saw them and you started shooting, or you saw them, they said something, you started shooting - yes to what?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: We just shot, they said nothing to us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The soldiers who had accompanied you, did they also partake in the shooting?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes they did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will you perhaps know the reason why the soldiers also partook in this?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: ...(no English translation)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Soldiers.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: The soldiers then asked from us about that area, as I explained that we send the youth there so that they can go there and scare them using the applies as if they are throwing hand grenades, so that they can run away and come to us and ask for help from us.  In that sense we were able then to tell them that the people who were doing that were the comrades, so that they can come to us for help and then I should think that they were also paying revenge such that they got injured others ...(indistinct)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I have to conclude from what you have said, is that the soldiers took part in shooting at the crowd because of your disinformation to them, is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's move to the Bongane Ntombela matter.  You were convicted for this offence, not so, charged and found guilty?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes indeed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And in that court you relate what happened on that particular at the killing of Ntombela.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was any woman involved in this incident?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair I cannot say that this person was involved because we met and she was not by herself, there were two of them, and again Chair, I would like to explain there because you are giving me a chance now.  This female, her name was Tobele, and staying there at Unit 2.  I greeted her and I asked for her ...(indistinct) and then she stopped and I asked her name and surname, she told me.
	And then I as a male, I was then starting to propose and then she said it's difficult for her to talk to me because the comrades are looking at her as she's talking to me.  If she continues talking to me her house will be burnt, her home.   The only thing she will give me her telephone number where I wrote it on a box of matches.  I can't quite remember what happened to that number because after my arrest it got lost.  So that's how we parted with that girl.  I never saw her until I saw her in court in that incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you not molest this girl?  Did you not molest/assault this girl?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: No not even touching her by the hand.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm asking you this because I'm in possession of the judgment in this case, and the facts, summary of substantial facts are mentioned thereon.  Do you remember that?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson I must object to the this, the summary of substantial fact forms part of the indictment to my recollection, and Mr Mpshe can correct me if I'm wrong, there's no reference to any violence against the woman in the judgment, but I stand to be corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mpshe just from personal knowledge and experience, it often happens that the summary of substantial facts differs substantially from the evidence that is ultimately led in a trial.  But is there anything in the judgment relating to this, or is it just contained in the summary of substantial ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is contained in the summary of substantial facts Mr Chairman, I didn't have time to go deep into the judgment, but I will ...(intervention)