Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MR MTHAMZELI: Was he the part?   Michael James was an informer, because he became a kitskonstabel in 1987, he was still an informer then.  Even 1985 and 1986 he was working in the rent office - in the family affairs.  I couldn't also believe it that my uncle could be an informer.
 Policemen were there when these people were beating us, he was not part of the law enforcement people - he was not even a kitskonstabel then.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In our statement you say that you yourself was accused of being a sell-out by the police.

MR MTHAMZELI: Yes that's what on he statement - that's how I was accused of.   Those were my co-accused some of them were my friends, some of them believed me -  some they didn't because the boers asked me to say the truth, because the others who are with you have said it already, you are the only one left, as they are using to the others, because Gama had done it, that has  - told the truth.  
 So I think that was there procedure, they didn't know that they are causing conflict between us, so even today you are still -  we haven't reconciled.  Even if is there a social activity they just can't tell me because we are no longer friends, I will just heard it some time after it had passed, because of what the boers did to us.
 I would also like to know  - I would also like my friends to know that it was the boers who tried to make this conflicts between us, it was not me, that is their way - that was their procedure of searching for the truth that were - they looking for.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: You were detained for is it 19 days or 14 days?

MR MTHAMZELI: Before I went to court it was 14 days.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: [indistinct] during your detention you say that they used the famous genital  torture method, how many times did they do that during your detention?

MR MTHAMZELI: They did that in 1985 by the time they were accusing me of the public violence.  It's the time where they fetched me from school - as they said they were going to ask me some questions, they assaulted me that way.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson I will  [indistinct]  to my colleagues and I may come back for some other questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Gama the first time they arrested you was in 1985 when you were 15 years old and you were accused of burning down the rent office, and cars and that time your punishment was 8 lashes - did you go to court and did they find you guilty, how did they decide on 8 lashes?

MR MTHAMZELI: They decided on this - we did go to court, but we changed the magistrate.  It was not one magistrate who was taking control of my case.  When we went out for tea time - then I come - we come back, this is not the person on the chair as - as it happened even after lunch, the person on the chair was not the one who was there before the lunch time.

RUSSELL ALLY: [indistinct] any lawyers who - a lawyer who was representing you?

MR MTHAMZELI: We had no lawyers then - we tried - the youth organisation tried to get some lawyers, that was late in 1986 that is when I joined  [indistinct] so it's then they tried to get lawyers for  us, but in 1985 I had not lawyers, it was me and my  co-accused we were not having lawyers.

RUSSELL ALLY: So did the State provide any legal representation for you in 1985?

MR MTHAMZELI: No not at all the Government of apartheid didn't do that - he didn't have - the Government didn't have that sympathy.  They couldn't even take the juveniles out and let them come back after some time, so we had no lawyers all in all.

RUSSELL ALLY: [indistinct] you ere arrested again, that was the second time under the State of Emergency and your statement says that you were sentenced to nine months imprisonment, what was the charge?

MR MTHAMZELI: I was not accused of anything in 1986 - I was working then I was a part-time worker, they just took me from my work place, I asked the reason and they said no you are going to be detained, because you are well known even in the law enforcement place like police stations.  You can't stay out - you  must be detained because you can - you will apply and influence other children.
 They had nothing to accuse me of.  Even by the time they were trying to take me to the police station, I tried to beg them and told them to ask my employer about my money and my service there so that it cannot be terminated - take it to my parents, more especially my mother was not even a pension - didn't get any pension fund then, it was only my father, but she was still on the waiting list, that's why I begged them to talk to my employer.
 I told them to talk to my boss, they can do anything as long as they talk to my boss with my financial  [indistinct] they couldn't even do that, even when I went out - when I was released from prison, the project was over and that - the employer was gone.

RUSSELL ALLY: [indistinct] I am just going to read something from your statement which I'd like you to - just to explain to me.  In your statement you say that
On the 16th of June they arrested me in terms of the State of Emergency, they hit me with the  [indistinct] of the gun in order to me into the Casspir.  I was sentenced to nine months imprisonment.
 Now were you sentenced to nine months imprisonment or were you detained for nine months?

MR MTHAMZELI: It was - I was detained, it was nine months, it was six months that I was detained of, not nine months imprisonment, six months in detention.

RUSSELL ALLY: [indistinct] in 1986 there was never any court case against you.

MR MTHAMZELI: That's what I am trying to say in 1986 there was no court case, the court case was only in 1985 where I was sentenced to 8 lashes, not in 1986.

RUSSELL ALLY: One last point, you say that as a result of the torture, as a result of them jamming your penis in - in a drawer, you can't have any children.  Have you actually had any medical examination done on your to establish that fact.

MR MTHAMZELI: I never get any examination, that's what I want to do  because I think now  I am old enough then I was very young, my parents didn't have money that's why I couldn't go there, more especially us blacks.
 We couldn't even get the courage to sit down with your parents and discuss the situations like these, because they were going to ask what am I talking about that's customary.  That's what I couldn't - that's why I couldn't go to the doctor then, it's - that's my aim now, I want to go to the doctor.  I am 27 years, next month I will be 27 years full on the 6th of July.
 It's time for me to be in love, I have got three years with this lady this is her third year because we wanted to see whether I could conceived any children.  And then I told her not to let her go off the injection so that we can't have any children.  Unfortunately she did,  but during then I could - she couldn't conceive, so that's why I am doubtfully, that's why I am doubtfully, I am not sure that I will bear any children in future.  So I am worried about that.
 I am sure that I won't have any children, although I haven't go to the doctor yet, so I would like to go to the doctor and get an examination.  I think I do need funds to go there.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you I am sure that the - the people in the Reparations and Rehabilitation have heard your request and I am sure that they will try and do something about that particular issue.

MARY BURTON: Mr Mthamzeli you were detained in Mossel Bay did they keep you in the police station or in prison cells, was there a particular people where people who were detained were held and interrogated?