Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: This is something which happened to me in my life and I and my family are suffering because of this.  I am very sorry about this, and I will have to carry this burden for the rest of my life.

UNKNOWN: When you were given the instruction by means of du Plessis' request and you said yes, why did you say "yes you would follow instructions" what was the reason, what was the background?  Why did you execute this instruction?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: In the first place where I was working from the morning till the night this unrest and violent situations, what I saw there where I was working as a security policeman on grassroots level and suddenly all things just overwhelmed you.  You can't describe to anybody what type of life you led.  To see schools burning every day.  You send this way, you send that way.  There are trained people who are infiltrating over the borders, they are bringing explosives, ammunitions.  There were bomb attacks, and from my point of view there was absolutely chaos during those time.  This person was definitely identified through interrogation as a trained terrorist, a courier who also assisted in smuggling weapons and explosives and ammunition into the country.  He was working for the ANC in Lesotho.  I can go on and on.
	Taking all these things into consideration it just felt for me that I had to serve the government of the day.  As a policeman I had to do this and I had to assist in maintaining and enforcing law and order and to prevent the unrest situation as far as possible, and I felt this is why I said yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I notice it is precisely one o'clock.  I don't know if you wish to take the luncheon adjournment now.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just to round off Mr Raath, in your written application you have referred to certain political objectives and I am referring to volume 1, page 25, 26 and 27, do you confirm that?  You don't have it in front of you.  It's paragraph 10, A and B, page 25 to 27.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And in paragraph 10 on page 27 you have requested the honourable Commission to the Foundation for Equality before the Law and also van der Merwe's submission, to incorporate that into this application.
	Mr Raath if you want to summarise, what were your political motives when this instruction regarding Mr Kondile was executed?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Your Honour my primary task was that I had sworn allegiance to the State.  I did not do it for my own personal gain, but I acted as a policeman against the liberation movement.  I felt that that what I had done, seen against the background of the unrest situation in the area and in the country was something which was associated with my duties as a policeman.
	My political convictions, I acted in terms of my powers as a member of the South African Police to combat the terrorists and people from the liberation movement.  My activities were in the interest of the country to maintain the government of the day.

UNKNOWN: After a struggle had been concluded, it doesn't matter where, it's only the people who are the victims.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: How do you feel today?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: This was a struggle in which we were involved and I am very sorry for the losses on both sides.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman that is the evidence, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

MR MOOSA: Mr Raath, exactly who was involved in the interrogation of Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was I and Captain du Plessis.  He was also interrogated at a stage by member of our East London security branch.

MR MOOSA: But with regard to interrogations by the Eastern Cape Security branch it was only you and Mr du Plessis, is that correct?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct, as far as I know.

MR MOOSA: In your application on page 24 Mr Chairman, in your answer to paragraph 9, subsection A(iv) you say that you associate yourself with the statement of Mr du Plessis, in fact you make no statement of your own there, is that correct?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: 9(A)(iv).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I want to refer you to the corresponding paragraph of Mr du Plessis' affidavit which appears on page 14 of the first bundle, and in particular to the last sentence of the second paragraph thereof, have you found that?  That begins - "since his detention..." etc.  Can you read that sentence.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.
"Since his detention in the Eastern Cape he was interrogated by myself, members of my personnel as well as members of the Border Security Branch".

MR MOOSA: I want you to focus on "members of my personnel", it's members in plural and the only member you are referring to is yourself.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.  I think what he meant there is that Danster was also involved but he was not intensively involved in the interrogation.

JUDGE PILLAY: To what extent would he have been involved in interrogating?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: He was only involved in the guarding of Kondile.

JUDGE PILLAY: Not interrogating?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MOOSA: So in fact that's not an application in that Mr Danster was never involved in the interrogation of Mr Kondile, am I right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: So how do you explain this which you have incorporated as part of your statement, what other members of Mr du Plessis' team are being here referred to?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I do not know whether Captain du Plessis referred to the team that worked with him.

MR MOOSA: Now that we are talking about Mr Danster, it's also stated by Mr Danster that he was amongst the people who went with you to fetch Mr Kondile from Bloemfontein.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is not true.

MR MOOSA: In fact the only person you have mentioned to us is a Capt Greyling, is that right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct, yes.

MR MOOSA: I take it then it was only the two of you and no one else?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: Not the late Mr Buzane and definitely not Mr Danster?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Buzara?

MR MOOSA: No, Buzane.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Buzane, no.

MR MOOSA: Could you tell us where this Capt Greyling is at the moment, where can we find him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I have no idea where he is stationed at the moment.

MR MOOSA: And you've said that you fetched Mr Kondile at the Security Branch in Bloemfontein, is that right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct, yes.

MR MOOSA: Who did you deal with in the security branch in Bloemfontein?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I cannot remember.

MR MOOSA: In what type of vehicle did you proceed from the Eastern Cape to Bloemfontein ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is there some doubt about all this?  If there isn't any doubt about it then what is the purpose of these questions?

MR MOOSA: Mr Chairman it goes back to the question you asked me, which is, our version is that Mr Kondile was abducted from Lesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that.

MR MOOSA: I am leading up to something with the vehicle, it will become apparent in the next question.  What type of vehicle was used Mr Raath?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was a sedan, it was Capt Greyling's official vehicle.

MR MOOSA: So it was not a Datsun Laurel?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MOOSA: You are aware that Mr Danster has made a detailed statement, in fact it was put to you in evidence-in-chief, where he says amongst other things that you went to Bloemfontein and that there was discussion with Mr Kondile on the way back.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No, not at any stage did Danster travel to Bloemfontein with me.

MR MOOSA: Was there any discussion with Mr Kondile on the way back?