Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Now, this business premises, with reference to the hotel where you spent the evening, how far is it situated from the hotel?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: From the hotel where we were, it's like from here and where the policemen are sitting.   There's a fence in between and then on the other side of the fence, those are Thalede's businesses, in other words this side is Makwena's businesses and the other side of the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you approximate that in terms of metres or paces, Mr Oosthuizen?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Excuse me, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you approximate that in terms of metres or paces, can you say about... (intervention).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Madam Chair, I would say it's about... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...six, seven paces?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Ja, maybe - ja, six to ten, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And the name of the business of Mr Thalede, is that familiar to you?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: He had two businesses, one was Chicken Licken and the other one was a supermarket.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: So Mr Makwena's hotel and Mr Thalede's business were situated directly next to each other, and they were basically neighbours, is that right?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: That's correct.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And you testified that David had to go and look and see if Mr Thalede is at his business.   What was David's reaction on that?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: He didn't respond, he just went and did as he was told.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And what did he told you when he came back?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: He said Mr Thalede wasn't there, it looked like he was in Jo'burg.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And what did you do after you received this news?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We decided to sleep there and that we were going to go to Durban the next morning.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Was the plan that all three of you, being Mr Willie Makwena, yourself and Mr Romeo Mbambo spend the night at the hotel, and some of the other members that was with you, of the other hit squad members?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: In the hotel it was Mbusa Mbambo, myself, he left us there because he's married and he went and sleep in the house because the house and the hotel, it's in one premises.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: What happened the next morning?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We woke up late in the morning.   Since we were not prepared for this trip, we didn't even have clothes to change, we decided to go to Durban, but first we took a bath, and Mr Makwena came to us and he said that we should first come to Nelspruit so that we have breakfast before we leave for Durban.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: You can proceed, what happened then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We got inside his kombi.   Me and Mbambo, we sat at the back, because we didn't want people to see us in this area.   As we were going to Nelspruit, we met a certain car, which was a Honda Prelude and it was maroon in colour, and Mr Makwena said to us that was Mr Thalede.   We waited for a while and then we made a U turn, we followed him.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We followed his car at a distance, but we didn't want him to be suspicious that this car was following him.   We followed him until he entered his business premises and Makwena as well did the same, entered his own business premises.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And what happened then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We went back to the very same room which we had put up.    We waited so that it was dark and so that we can carry on on what we came there for.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Late in the evening, we looked for guns, or we demanded guns from Mr Makwena.   David, Mr Makwena's brother, left and came back with an AK47, and he gave that AK47 to Mbusa Mbambo.   Romeo took the AK and checked it if it was in a good condition, but the gun had mud, it looked like it wasn't going to work properly and it was too stuck, stiff, and then he said he didn't think that it was going to work, that very same gun.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Which guns were you planning to use then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We decided that we were going to use the same guns which we were given as hit squad, the ones which belonged to the police or who were given to us by the police.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Where and what... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a policeman?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you obtain the firearm that you used, that you had with you on that day?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: These guns were brought from Skaweni and some of them from Ulundi, they were hit squad guns.

CHAIRPERSON: And who had given you that particular gun?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I took it among other guns which were also used for such operations.   Mbambo had his own gun, I only took one from those guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you take it from?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Where Mbambo was staying.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take it at anyone's instruction?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: There was no need for me to be instructed by anyone to take a gun, because I was already being sent on an operation, therefore I took one gun from those guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you used that gun previously in any of the operations?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Oosthuizen.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.  What type of gun did you had and what type of gun did Mr Romeo Mbambo had?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: He had a 9mm Z88, I had a 9mm Baretta(?).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Do you know if Mr Romeo Mbambo knew what Mr Thalede looked like?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I only know that he knew him, this is what he told me as well.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Were you aware of any bodyguards or protection that Mr Thalede had?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I was told that he had one bodyguard, who usually will arm himself with a shotgun.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And are you aware, or were you aware if Mr Thalede as armed?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: If you can repeat that please?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Were you aware if Mr Thalede himself was armed?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, Willie told me so when we were at the hotel.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Were you told what kind of weapon he had in his possession?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: They said he usually carries a revolver, but they were not sure whether it was 38 or 357 magnum, but it was a revolver.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: After you got this information, what did you do?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I decided to put a bulletproof vest.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And tell us from there what happened?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Before we left for Mr Thalede's house, Mr Makwena asked Mr Mbambo if he could remember Mr Thalede, more especially his identity, so that he doesn't confuse his identity with somebody else.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And what was his reply to that?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Mbambo said yes, he could remember, and he said he's got a short hair, and Mr Makwena explained to him that no, he doesn't have a short hair anymore, he's now greyish.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And after that you left for Chicken Licken, is that right?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: That's right.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Tell us what happened from there?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We decided that we were not going to use the front gate when we were going to Mr Thalede's house, we decided that we were going to use the - or we were going to use the road which is behind the businesses, so that we enter Mr Thalede's house from behind.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Was there a gate at the back?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We jumped the fence.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: You may proceed.

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We went and we entered to the Chicken Licken.  Our aim was to see if Mr Thalede was there, even though we pretended to be buying something from the Chicken Licken, and we discovered that Mr Thalede wasn't there.    When we left... (intervention).