Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you Mr Pienaar, I have one question and then I  will proceed to  my colleagues.  Much has been said about the brilliant strategy of black on black violence.  In your opinion do you think that  the kitskonstabels were one of that strategy especially since they could move around in the townships and they could gather information in very unique ways.
 Is, was this one of the strategies of black on black violence?

MR PIENAAR: Well if one probably - if one sees it as black people being employed in a way with - without being trained with shotguns, with tear gas canisters, with sjamboks and batons,  and literally let loose to walk a ground as a group as they did in - in Bhongolethu and what came out of that.  
 I would think it definitely helped or pushed violence from black people to black people - especially in Bhongolethu where many of the - of the kitskonstabels of the time as I understood, subject to being corrected, but I understood that a number of them actually came from the area and were then re-deployed.
 But often it also seemed to be that they were people who without employment in any event and they would then earn a salary  of R400-00 a month - get a place to  stay, be given power.  So they were in some way maybe also victims of circumstance there.  But I would think the thinking behind taking in the kitskonstabels that one needs to call Adriaan Vlok to come and answer and find out exactly how these arrangements were made and how the decisions were taken.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson  [indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Any - no - well thank you very much I - I just one or two observations - the first is to comment you because it could not have been easy to have taken on the role that you did take on of being willing to  represent legally people who were generally regarded as distractible and I want to say on behalf of all of them and of ourselves, thank you  that you did take on that.
 And it is not insignificant given where we are in this country, that you are Afrikaner, and it is important for our country - for this part of  our truth to be known - where we could show very easily say the wrong was done - I mean largely done by Afrikaans speaking people.  It is - it is an important point  to stress.  But there were very many too such as yourself, Afrikaans speaking who stood out when it was not easy, in fact it was often certainly unprofitable if not dangerous.
 The second is and speaking  about an arm of the Police Force that was being used in this way, very characteristic I think of how  often the police were politicised in the period that we are bidden to  look into.  And it is - it is good ... end of Tape 1, side  A  ...  where do you come from, now we are seeing the Police Force being turned into the friends of the people and we have them here and now providing us with security and we - we want to give thanks for that development as well, thank you.

MR PIENAAR: Thank you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I  just want to ask Mr Pienaar, and this may be incorrect, but you yourself were arrested and assaulted at one time, is that correct?

MR PIENAAR: No I  - there has been some threats of arrest, but that never took place.  I  - I have been assaulted but it wasn't by a policeman, it  was by somebody who kicked us out of a municipal caravan park for not being all white.
 But I did receive some - I did received a threat and had my car slashed in about - it must have been August 1987 - during this time where I  was living in Knysna.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you anyway.

MR PIENAAR: Thanks - and thank you Mr Chairman for your kind -  kind words.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Pienaar.