Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR MCADAM: Certainly they would be the super soldiers of the Defence Force. The persons most proficient in the use of all types of weapons, explosions, demolitions, as a top fighting elite?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: No, they're not the top fighting elite, everybody is elite when we're fighting a war. There is no differentiation between categories but the question you want to ask is whether they would be trained in various weaponry. Yes they would in other bodies of the Defence Force they would concentrate on a certain body, infantry or whatever. They would not have the same level of training in that main weaponry but they would also have demolitions, etcetera, training. The special forces, the name of the special forces is aimed at having more training in a special direction.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) were primarily deployed externally, on external operations and external intelligence gathering?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I was never involved and I must put it to you this way; I was never involved in operational units, not as Minister. Those were aspects the head of the defence force would decide. What you are saying now sounds correct to me. Internally it would not be used in the fighting or the combating of revolutionary onslaught because it would not be required therefore. Except if armed forces come in or if there is a hijacking of a South African aeroplane but overseas, yes.

MR MCADAM: At the hearing in October this year we heard General Geldenhuys state that in the mid-eighties he told General Joubert, whose was the commander of special forces at that stage, that he should devise a plan to assist the police internally. Why would General, would you accept that firstly?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: If he said that, I will have to accept.

MR MCADAM: But he never actually, physically reported that to you or did he?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: No.

MR MCADAM: Have you any, do you know of any reason why General Geldenhuys would give an instruction to special forces to help the police internally?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: No. I think that's the kind of question you must pose to him. I was not that involved in operational circumstances that I would have been involved. I had the politics and the management of the department on my hands. He had to deal with the nitty gritty of the operational unit.

MR MCADAM: The reason why I ask you that is because at that stage the only assistance that the army could give to the police would be to back the police up when they went to arrest people either for detaining them without trial or for ultimately bringing them before courts of law on criminal charges.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I accept that.

MR MCADAM: And if we look, you said it out very clearly that at that period the major problem was the anarchy, the necklacings, the destruction of property, the boycott actions?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Correct.

MR MCADAM: Could special forces possibly be of assistance to the police in that circumstance? And specifically in the instance of the powers which the police could exercise internally at that time?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I don't know. I can't answer that question.

MR MCADAM: Would it not have been more appropriate to deploy infantry into those townships? I mean patrols would deter all these mobs from necklacing, destruction of property, protection of people who were branded as collaborators?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I don't know what you are referring to but let me put it in this way. If we come back to the underprivileged, if the Defence Force had to support the police it would have been according to certain assessments, operational assessments that were made. And the Defence Force would then decide whether it's better to give this under these circumstances. I do not know what the circumstances had been and what the information assessment would have been or what the task would have been. But in general I can assure you that cordons were thrown and there were roadblocks, etc. That kind of, during those kind of operations the Defence Force supported the police.

MR MCADAM: And a person in the position of General Joubert, a man of impeccable credentials, who was previously the commander of five South African infantry, the commander of sector ten in Namibia, the commander of a mechanised infantry, I take it would be very aware of what the army could or could not do inside the boundaries of South Africa in support of the police?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I would accept that.

MR MCADAM: Now what I found extraordinary is that when General Joubert testified he said that his plan involved the elimination of the ANC as a political and military organisation. It extended not only to actual armed combatants of umkhonto weSizwe but their helpers, their supporters, the facilities they used. And he was very clear that these persons instructions had to eliminated as in kill.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Inside South Africa?

MR MCADAM: Inside South Africa.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Ask him where he gets that. I won't know. I testified that any actions, any illegal actions domestically would not be allowed.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) the South African army was not above the law internally, externally. There were checks and balances in place. There were clearly defined laid down procedures?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair if we can come back to the question of the counter revolutionary war I will have to spend some time on that. There are three groups; Mao Tse Tung, define this concept there was the masses and a small group who supported the government and a group against them. The struggle is then who can get the masses on it's side? If the government wants to do that he will have to find a workable solution. It can only get the people on it's side by giving better things in the sense of a roof over his head, food, education. Where the other group that wants to overthrow the government works with acts of terror and by creating fear. And by taking those kinds of steps. In other words he forces the people in his direction. If a government starts transgressing the law or then you'll have problems. I will come back to that problem. Internally it's unacceptable to do these things, never mind a legal perspective. One would be working counter productively because a government if you are linked to the government and if you are busy with other activities, you will be bringing the government in discredit with the masses. In that spirit I'm telling you that one cannot act illegitimately and one has to act within the boundaries of the law.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) if he carried out an order from the chief of the Defence Force that he would have reported back to the chief of the defence force and said: "This is what I've done in compliance with your order," as a check and balance. That the Chief of Defence will say: "Well fine what you're doing is perfectly acceptable go ahead or no it's out of the question." You don't implement that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Sure.