Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: I'm talking about Mr Thulani Dlamini, was he not convicted with you for the robbery of Mr Ephraim Ndlalose on the 28th of June 1988 at Ngoma?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes.

MR VALLY: So you two have been accomplices before in another very serious crime - robbery with aggravating circumstances?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was arrested for the very first time with regard to Doctor Asvat's death, I don't know anything about else.

MR VALLY: I'm aware when you were arrested, I'm saying that at the time of your arrest you were charged not only for the death of Doctor Asvat but you were also charged and convicted of a robbery in Ngoma which took place on the 28th of June 1988.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was arrested and charged with regard to Doctor Asvat's murder, the other one was a further charge and I was told that I was to appear at the Supreme Court but I have no knowledge of that robbery.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, I won't take this any further, it's a matter of public record that both Mr Thulani Dlamini and Zakhele Mbatha were convicted of robbery with aggravating circumstances relating to the crime I've referred to.   (End of tape - no sound)

CHAIRPERSON: ... leads to is the murder of Doctor Asvat.  He was surprised that this second charge was brought against him, he doesn't know anything about it - that is what he says.

MR VALLY: I hear you Archbishop.
 But the fact is there were witnesses led, witnesses you identified you and you were subsequently convicted of that crime.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Can I just explain to you that the time is being referred to - that is the time of the robbery, I wasn't even in Natal at that time, I was here in Johannesburg.  I even do have a hospital record that confirms the fact that I was admitted because I had been stabbed, so there is no truth in that statement that I was in Natal or in the region of Natal and I committed that robbery, I wasn't in Natal, I was in Gauteng.

MR VALLY: Let's move on.  You were arrested - I believe it was the 17th of February 1989, and your first statement you made to a Lieutenant Page on the 19th of February 1989, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: This is a statement in which you say that there was a Johannes Ndlovo who carried out this crime, that you weren't party to the crime and that you also didn't know who Mr Thulani Dlamini was, is this correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is the statement that I submitted and I do admit I referred to Johannes as to what his surname was is news to me, I don't know what his surname was - I had just been given the name Johannes without the surname.

MR VALLY: I'm sorry, I've got it wrong.  The statement you allegedly made was that Johannes Ndlovo gave you the gun and you in fact shot Doctor Asvat - this is the statement you first made to the police on the 19th of February 1989, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is the statement I was forced to submit.

MR VALLY: Fine, this is the one you said was tortured out of you and where you were told what to say, is that what you alleged in your evidence?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR VALLY: You appeared in the Magistrates Court and when you were asked to plead you made another statement in court, do you recall that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: Was the statement you gave in court when you made your plea also forced out of you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: The statement that I submitted in court, I said I was not guilty because I did not want to go to prison.

MR VALLY: Well, from the court record you seem to have said something totally different.  I will read you a small extract
 I don't know if the interpreters can interpret from Afrikaans?
I've got three heads nodding: "no", so I'll just translate it myself as we go on Archbishop.
"Do you know Abu Bakker Asvat"?
Your answer was: 
"Yes, I know him"
"Do you acknowledge that you shot the said person with a firearm"? 
And your answer is:
"Yes, twice, I wasn't sure if the first shot hit him but the second shot hit him in the chest"
"Why did you shoot him"? 
Answer: 
"I did not want to fight with him, I came onto the premises with a gun, he was a medical doctor and I went into his consulting rooms to rob him of the money he had earned and that is why I wanted to use the gun.   I shot him because he wanted to fight with me and take the gun from me"
Do you recall all that happening?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: You then go into great detail and this is court, this is not your statement you made to the police about
"He pulled the curtains open, he had his back to me and then I got up at that stage"
and then you shot him, he grabbed your knees and you went on at great lengths about that - similar to the story you've given us now, do you recall that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: Well how do you explain this statement in court then if you were not forced to make it?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was still under the authority of those policemen who forced me to submit the statement so I knew it was one and the same system that interrogated me and the one that put me to court or made me appear before court, that's why I kept on saying what I said.

MR VALLY: Although you were not forced to make this statement, you felt that because the court system was part of the police system you would make the same statement, is that your answer?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you repeat your question.

MR VALLY: You felt the system was the same - because you were in court the legal system was the same as the police system and that's why you repeated the same statement, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I submitted the same statements, it was one and the same thing that they had force me to say or to submit in writing and they forced me to say it in court.

MR VALLY: When you were arrested you persisted in giving a false name until your ID book was found, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: Why did you do that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When they found me I was asleep and I was scared, I didn't know what was happening that is why I gave them a wrong name and my conscience was hammering away at me because I knew what I had done earlier on.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] a statement to the investigators from the Truth Commission?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.