Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR LAX: Please be seated.  Can you hear us properly on the microphone?  Sorry, just speak up so that we can just test that your voice is going to be recorded properly.  Just say yes.

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: If you could maybe come a little closer, pull your seat in.  Let him pull his seat in.  That is much better, thank you.  Can you hear him in the witness box, the translation box?

INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thutha, do you confirm that the affidavit before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by it?

ZAMA THUTHA: I would like to see it first.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am trying to explain to him that there is a difference, he is talking about the actual application which is before the Court, and this is the affidavit you made and you signed yesterday before the Commissioner of Oath, the same information you gave me regarding your application?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, this is my affidavit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you abide by its contents?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just to ensure that we do not encounter problems on the way.  Mr Thutha was that affidavit read to you before you signed it?

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't remember.  I don't know whether it was read to me or not, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you read it now?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, I didn't read it.

MR LAX: Can I make a suggestion?  Mr Mbandazayo, I think you better read him this affidavit and the other one, and let's take a short adjournment and come back when you have done that, because it wouldn't be fair to him if he can't remember it and we are going to question him on that.
	I think you should just take a bit of time and go through it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I think it will be better for me to do that again Mr Chairman.  I did it yesterday Mr Chairman, before he signed, but I will do that Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Will you just indicate to us when you are ready, we will just take a short adjournment in the meantime?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

MR PRIOR: The matter, the other matter that was on the role but obviously we will never get to it for the reasons stated earlier on in the week, Mr Ntonga appears for Bobby Tsala and one Seyo, Mr Seyo, may this application be adjourned until the 5th of May to East London, to the same venue?  It is a Tuesday.

MR NTONGA: I confirm the arrangement Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this matter is adjourned and I make it clear that this Committee is not seized at the present time, but it is adjourned till the 5th of May here in East London.

MR PRIOR: I am indebted to the Committee, thank you Mr Chair.  May we then proceed with the matter at hand?

ZAMA THUTHA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can try again.

MR MBANDAZAYO: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thutha, you see the affidavit before yourself which is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Thutha, I will take you through certain portions of the affidavit of Luvuyo Kenneth Kulman, which you in your affidavit indicated, that it must be incorporated in yours regarding this incident.
	Can you tell the Committee at which stage did you become aware that you are going to go and take the truck of Donnie Meyers and also kidnap him?

MR LAX: Sorry it is Mike Meyers, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the truck of Mike Meyers.

ZAMA THUTHA: The morning of the 27th of August.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, just take the Committee through the steps, what happened in that morning?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue.

ZAMA THUTHA: That morning Thandekulo arrived and told me that that day I am going to meet Maxwell Mneya, I would get all the information from him.  He said that I was going to go somewhere with him.
	I did go to Maxwell Mneya where he was and he told us where we were going to go.   He told me where we were going to go and then at about half past seven, Thandekulo came in a car, picked us up.  We used the Umtata road to Nqobo.
	There was a branch or off ramp to Sibekhi on the way, on the left hand side, towards Nqobo.  Next to that turn off going towards Sibekhi Police station, we were at (indistinct) on the way to Sibekhi.  We saw the truck, it was parked.
	Before we got to the truck, we drove passed a bridge, a sort of bridge, that is where we parked the car.  You can't see the car from where the truck was parked, one couldn't see the car.
	From the place where we parked the car, next to the road, you could not see the truck.  Now, if you had moved from where the car was parked and you stand on the road, you could see the truck.  Can I proceed?
	My co-accused, Maxwell Mneya and I went towards the truck, we left Thandekulo behind.  However, on the way next to the road, Thandekulo was following us, but he was not with us.
	When we got to the truck, my co-accused told me that I must stand behind the truck and watch people who were selling and he was going to take over the front.  He said that I must be alert as to what was happening around.
	Whilst I was behind the truck, I kept on peeping also around the passenger side where my co-accused was.  After a short while I heard a bang.  When I looked on the left side, where my co-accused was meant to be standing, I couldn't see him.
	I then went around the truck on the right side.  When I got there, I could see the white man getting out.  I then ...

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just slow down a little bit.  I think you are going very, very fast please, it is difficult for the translators to keep up with you.
	We are not trying to cut you short, it is just very hard for them to translate when you are going so fast, thank you.  And it is also hard for us, we are writing notes, to keep up.

ZAMA THUTHA: The gun that I was carrying, I  had put it in a sack of potatoes, where people could not see it, the rifle, home made rifle.  Can I carry on?
	After that, after I had heard the noise, I could not differentiate whether it was my co-accused being shot or who it was.  However, when I looked on the left side, I could not see my co-accused.  I then went towards the right side of the truck.  I saw Mike Meyers getting out of the truck.
	His right hand side was behind him as he was getting out, as if he was trying to do something in the truck.  I then thought that he was preparing himself to shoot me, because I could not see my co-accused, I thought it was my co-accused who had been shot.
	I then shot him.  He fell on the ground, stumbled and fell on the ground.  I went to him immediately and I noticed that he didn't have a gun with him.  I went back to the truck.  When I got to the truck, my co-accused was inside the truck.
	There was then the second white person, then I could not say what she was.  I just saw a person.  What I did is I looked underneath the driver's seat to see if there was anything.  I also looked at the front, I could see that there was nothing.

MR LAX: Sorry, what were you looking for.  You said to see if there was anything, what exactly were you looking for?

ZAMA THUTHA: I was looking for a gun or any weapon, or anything that would be dangerous.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

ZAMA THUTHA: On the left side there was a bag of tools, a bag of car tools.  I did not check properly, but I just looked and perused the tools.
	I then started the truck and drove.  My co-accused had put this white person on the floor so that people could not see her.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, can I just interrupt there, what did your co-accused do, could you just repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: Put the white person on the floor.

UNKNOWN: Could you just repeat that what your co-accused was doing with the white passenger?