Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: ... the same as far as the Panel is concerned and for the applicants I'm going to ask the representatives in matter in which the victim Frans Mavhandu is involved, to announce himself for the purposes of the record.  So can you announce yourself for the purposes of the record, please?

MR MUSHASHA: Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, my name is Milo Jackson Mushasha, advocate of the Supreme Court.  I represent the victims in this matter.

MR NDOU: My name is Patrick Ndou, I'm an attorney from the firm Uys & Louw Inc in Thoyohandou.  I represent the applicants.

MS PATEL: Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ndou.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I now call applicant 7254, that is Samuel Kudzingana.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kudzingana you are an applicant appearing before the Amnesty Committee and you've deposed a document which has been signed by yourself in front of a commissioner of oaths.  Do you have any problem if I read this document into the record?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to read him the record Mr Ndou, we have been trained to read.

MR NDOU: Okay Mr Chairman, thank you, will it be necessary for me or will I just allow the Committee to take note of it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we'll have to read it and take note of it, let's mark that Exhibit A.

MR NDOU: Thank you.  Now you were born on the 25th of December 1966, is that correct?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes it's correct.

MR NDOU: Now you've sent an application to the Amnesty Committee asking that you be granted amnesty in respect of which offences?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I've got fifteen years for murder and three years for arson.

MR NDOU: And murder in respect of who?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: In respect of Frans Mavhandu.

MR NDOU: And the arson?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: The arson occurred in Frans Mavhandu's home.

MR NDOU: Now could you explain to the Committee as to how it came about that this happened?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I can.

MR NDOU: Please do so.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand you correctly then Mr Ndou, he's making application for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr Mavhandu, and one count of arson in respect of the home of Mr Mavhandu.

MR NDOU: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Both occurred on the same day?

MR NDOU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed. It happened in the same incident broadly speaking?

MR NDOU: That is so.  You can proceed.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: On the 6th of March 1990, it happened a meeting was held at the dam where we were discussing the issue of witchcraft - how are we going to deal with witches seeing that they are there in our community, because there was another meeting which was held before the 6th which happened at the chief's kraal, headman Nmbuleni Simon Sintumole.  There we discussed the same issue that there are witches in our community and how can we deal with this issue.
    Then the youth decided that youth were in danger because there was nothing that they could do in the village, so the youth decided to burn the witches.  The main aim being that the Venda Government should be ungovernable, and as such we decided before the 6th of March where the youth organised themselves and went on the 6th.  After the meeting there at the dam, myself, I was from Madumbija on that day, so as I was coming using the path between the bushes I found the people going to the place the home of the deceased and then I joined them ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at the meeting?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: No I didn't attend that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about the one at the dam.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes the very same one I didn't attend, I joined them on the way to that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you join them?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I was invited so I joined and then I was told where to go.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you join?  Okay you were invited now.  People get invited to weddings and whatever else.  Why did you join?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: On that time there was no time for reasoning as to where we are going so there was no time for questioning anybody or to ask anybody because there were so many.  So on my arrival I decided to do what they were doing at the very same time.  That is how I joined and then I went with them to the home of the deceased.  Before we arrived there we found the deceased accompanying certain two men.  I'm not sure if they were visitors on that day.  Then on our arrival the deceased went back to his home taking two big knives and when the mob arrived the deceased was prepared to defend himself.  Then the mob decided to throw stones at him.  There at home was his wife who also went out when the mob arrived and ran away and the man remained.  Then the man ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How big was this mob?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: About 500.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what were the mob going to do there?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: This mob went there because Frans was suspected to be a witch and then other people I think in the meeting which was held where witches were identified people like Frans was also identified.  Such kinds of people were once told that they must be evicted and then Frans was one of the people who refused to be evicted.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know Frans?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I knew him.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you staying in the same village?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you attend the meeting at the headman?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: The meeting at the chief's kraal, I didn't attend that one.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't attend that meeting, you didn't attend the meeting at the dam?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: No I didn't attend them.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the mob going to his house for?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I discovered that the mob was going to ask him to go because he was accused of practising witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you find that out?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: On the very same day on which these things happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Before or after they reached the deceased's house?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I think it's before we arrived, when I saw the deceased coming out with those big pangas or knives.  Then I asked somebody whether we are here to ask him to go and then I was told in passing that you must know that people who are witches are expected to leave this village because it's known for a long time that witches must leave that village.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I agreed with that Your Honour.

ADV DE JAGER: Why should witches be chased away, what was the reason?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Witches were alleged to be giving the people just like the ministers, they were giving the ministers ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The government, are you talking about the government?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I'm talking about the former Venda Government.

CHAIRPERSON: You say the witches were thought to be giving what ...?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: They were thought to be giving the high officials, the people who were running the Venda Government, they were assisting by giving them muti so that they can be intact in their positions.

CHAIRPERSON: What was wrong with that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: During that time the Venda Government said it must be incorporated because people were no longer interested in it because the people in the government were said to be committing ritual murder and corruption in the very same government.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words as I understand your evidence is that the people of Venda wanted reincorporation and the ministers wanted to keep their positions as a separate homeland.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Ja they were supporting that.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was thought that they were able to do so with the assistance of witchcraft.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes that's the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that the reason witches were then targeted?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: That is what was done.