Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

GEORGE BIZOS: Insofar as anyone may have said that you were not in the car at that time was untrue?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You have asked me and I said I was in the car.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you press the button or did someone else press the button?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I pressed the button.

GEORGE BIZOS: If anyone says that someone else pressed the button, that evidence isn't correct.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again, I have told you I pressed the button.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anyone try to press the button before you did?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Abram van Zyl.

GEORGE BIZOS: And before Mr van Zyl, did anyone attempt to let the bomb go off?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you change the batteries?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: If anyone says that the batteries were changed and that was the reason why there was this delay in letting the bomb off, will that evidence be correct or incorrect?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: My response is that I did not exchange the batteries.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the batteries changed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not as far as I know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there anything wrong with the remote?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The remote stalled in detonating the bomb, I examined it, there were various possible factors, such as the safety or a contact point which didn't make the connection.  It took me a number of seconds to examine the device and then I activated it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any plan at any stage that Hardien would press the button in your and Van Zyl's absence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think that was part of the pre-study.  I think it was part of the initial plan.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you and Van Zyl dropped away from the vicinity of the centre shortly before the button was triggered?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: If anyone says that was so, would that be untrue?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: My answer is no.

GEORGE BIZOS: You're not prepared to comment on why this conflicting evidence was given, conflicting between you and Hardien, Hardien and Van Zyl and you and Van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You asked me a question and I gave you an answer.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, I've missed all that, something went wrong with ...

CHAIRPERSON: How long have you been ...

MR MARTINI: Just now, the last issue about ...(no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, would you mind just repeating.   I think just go back to about where you were asking about the contradictions in the evidence, if you could just repeat that for us please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you able to explain why in such a simple transaction as pressing the button for a bomb to go off, there would be contradictions between you and Hardien, Hardien and Van Zyl, you and Van Zyl?  Can you explain why those contradictions may have come about?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have given you my version which I accept as the correct version.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you yourself ever say that you and Van Zyl were dropped off some distance away from the centre?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did say that at a certain stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now what was the purpose of that untruth?  If your present evidence is correct.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will once again refer you to my Section 29 statement and everything that went along with that.  I do not see the necessity to elaborate on this yet again, I've explained the reason to you at the time of deposing my Section 29 statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any discussion with you that it was a Coloured woman that was going to place the bomb in the hall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I suspect that I also stated it as such in my Section 29 statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: But what is the purpose of that untruth?  Am I to understand that there was no such discussion?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is a possible inference that I drew due to a discussion that I heard between Van Zyl and Hardien and everything that went along with that.  As I've said, I cannot say for certainty where it comes from.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.
	Just to get back to that last one about being dropped off, you're saying you were definitely not dropped off.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You stayed in the vehicle the whole time.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For what possible purpose?  If you want to make up facts to mislead the investigator or whatever, what can you achieve by saying that you got out of the car?  Nothing turned around whether you were in the car the whole time or if you got out of for a short while, so why should it even come into your mind at all to say it, if it's such an insignificant little detail that has no consequence at all?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Chairperson, my only answer is merely because I was completely uncertain of what to say during my Section 29 statement, because I didn't know what, where, how, what I was supposed to say.  It was my only motivation at that point.

GEORGE BIZOS: The passage about being left some distance behind, the sixth paragraph on page 5 of B, Mr Chairman.  Now was the mechanism, the calculator ever handed to Hardien?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anyone - did you hear anyone say that it was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, except that I think I stated it in my 29.

GEORGE BIZOS: You actually said so under oath?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In my 29, most probably yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the purpose of that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I explained to you yesterday how I would investigate a matter as a detective and I wanted to distance myself from the scene in as far as it was possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: So this was not - far from this being said as a result of any confusion or any pressure, it was for the purposes of exculpating yourself?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Amongst others, Sir.  I told you there was numerous reasons for me acting the way I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's deal with this one, the specific reason for this one, that you were well enough to - I can think only of the Afrikaans, of the investigating officers "om die bos to lei".

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I made my entire statement to mislead them.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Have you got any yardstick by which the Committee can measure when you are telling the truth and when you are lying?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: All I have to offer you is my integrity which I have tried to illustrate to you in conjunction with the fact that I'm here to speak the truth, as well as the fact that I have no need to mislead the Committee, and simultaneously, there would be no sense to it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you a religious man, Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I beg your pardon?

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you a religious man?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I am.

GEORGE BIZOS: We've heard that you offered a prayer before this bomb was exploded.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will explain my Christianity to you briefly.  I am a Christian in the true sense of the word, I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and the eternal life which is attached to that.  Since I can remember, since childhood I would practise religion every evening of my life and everyone who knows me would be able to tell you this unequivocally, including Mr Burger, Mr Barnard and Mr van Zyl.  And whenever there was a function people would make use of me to lead them in prayer during such a function, being the opening of a place or a birthday function or whatever the case may be.  Mr van Zyl and I practised religion that evening, not specifically for the purposes of detonating the bomb, it was a regular ritual that we practised.  I happened to be in the same place with him at that time and we held our religion together.

GEORGE BIZOS: He said that you prayed for the success of your project.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We asked for the Lord's will to preside.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well perhaps the Lord's will was that the bomb ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.