Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Lamey, I just wanted to have that cleared up.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Then you say that a week or two after the meeting, you left for East London.  Two groups went down, the one group was Martiens Ras, Dave Baker and Hoffie Hoffman, they did not have any knowledge of the operation?  They were sent for normal duties to East London?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And the second group was yourself, Colonel de Kock, Lionel Snyman and Snor Vermeulen, who drove a day later with a Cressida vehicle?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And you also further state that Colonel De Kock and yourself went to the cabanas at the beach front and Snor and Lionel remained with the first group at the holiday resort?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.  I would just like to make a correction here, as Mr De Kock explained it, that is how it happened.  We first went to the holiday resort, and then the members from Security Branch went back to the hotel where we locked up the bakkies in the garages.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the hotel, that is the cabanas?

MR NORTJE: Yes, the Windsor cabanas.

MR LAMEY: And you say the packaging of the weapons was done the following day, and you sealed it, is that correct, in black refuse bags?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And you discuss a meeting which took place, can you shed some more light on this meeting?

MR NORTJE: The meeting as far as I recall, took place in the bar of the Osner hotel, where Anton and Clive Brink came to see us.  I would recall that other people were present, because I know at some stage, there was more than one meeting, but at some stage, there were other members of the Ciskeian Intelligence Service, I don't know who they worked for, but there were other persons who met us at some other stage, there was definitely more than one meeting.  This meeting could have been the following day, I am not certain, but a meeting did take place between Clive Brink and Anton, that is true.  I cannot say whether it was planned.  I would assume that they had spoken or liaised with Mr De Kock, I just know that they arrived there and there was a discussion.  I don't know ...

MR LAMEY: This was probably with regard to the supply of weapons?

MR NORTJE: Yes, the supply of weapons, but I did not note as to what was exactly discussed there.

MR LAMEY: But is it your recollection that that meeting took place before the weapons was supplied to Duli?

MR NORTJE: I have to concede that I am not entirely certain.

MR LAMEY: But what you do recall is that there was more than one meeting?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Very well.  There was a meeting with Mr Duli in the hotel before the weapons were supplied?

MR NORTJE: I would imagine that it was the same day, because Duli stayed in the Osner hotel and there was a meeting there as well, and I cannot recall whether I was present there, but I would assume that afterwards, I spoke to Mr De Kock and he told me that they were not interested, or what arose from this was a specific agreement as to where they would meet and where the weapons would be handed over, the final planning was there, the details with regard to where the weapons would be handed over.

MR LAMEY: Can you continue from there, what happened then?

MR NORTJE: As I said here, we had the 16 AK's, and as Mr De Kock told it, I remember correctly, it might have been 4 AK's and 16 magazines, but as I recall the kombi was already packed and once again ...

MR LAMEY: Excuse me is that the large quantity, in your statement you mentioned that you hired a kombi vehicle from one of the car rental services, from Avis or Budget, and the weapons were taken to a race track in this kombi but during that time, or you are not sure at what stage, but there was a request to the amount which you described as 16, but which might have been four AK's and 16 magazines, was taken aside or was withdrawn from the larger amount of weapons and would find their own way to Transkei or by means of another way, be transported to Transkei?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nortje, this race track that you are talking about, is this a motor car race track on Westbank, where they have motor car races, thank you?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Very well, it is at that race track ... (tape ends) ... the weapons to Craig Duli?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this during the night or day time, the hand over?

MR NORTJE: This was in the evening.

MR LAMEY: And then furthermore you say in your statement, that afternoon you departed for Maclear and you met Duli at approximately eleven o'clock in the evening in the (indistinct) area, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct, I don't recall in which town it was, but he only arrived at eleven o'clock that evening, and he was not alone, his driver was with him, this coloured person, Boetie Davis I think his name was, and they said that we should drive behind them.  About 20 kilometres outside the town, we encountered a group of vehicles there, bakkies with black men, we stopped there.  Initially we remained in the vehicle, or we climbed out but the vehicle was - it was loaded over.

MR LAMEY: You say in your statement that during the handing over of the weapons, you remained in the background?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then, if you have a look at page 18 of the statement, do you have it before you, you say that - in a paragraph there you say that De Kock, Van der Westhuizen and Nieuwoudt received great financial benefit from this and in the sentence before that, you say it was just before the weapons were handed over on the RSA side, but it would seem from there that there was a monetary transaction there, during the handing over of the weapons, can you comment on that please?

MR NORTJE: In the context in which this sentence appears, it does not fit here.  The fact that I said that they received financial benefit, this was an opinion which I formed long afterwards, this arose from discussions, things that I had heard, assumption that I had made that there must have been some money involved, but I cannot say specifically in this operation, that money was involved.  As you know there were other operations where money was involved, and I just mentioned it here.

MR LAMEY: When you made this statement in Denmark, did you mention it to the person who took the statement from you, and he slipped it in chronologically here, but it is not within this context, you just mentioned it on the side?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You went back to East London and the following day you heard that the coup was unsuccessful and that Craig Duli had been killed?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And from information which you received from a certain source, was that Duli was arrested by Holomisa's bodyguards and was executed in the presence of Holomisa?

MR NORTJE: That is correct, that is something that we had heard.

MR LAMEY: And afterwards, you returned to Pretoria?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: To summarise Mr Nortje, your instruction, or can I put it in the following manner, from whom did you receive your direct instruction to be involved?

MR NORTJE: From Mr De Kock.

MR LAMEY: And the instruction had regard to the supply of weapons to Craig Duli, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You understood that this coup operation would be in co-operation or would have been planned in co-operation with DCC, the persons Anton Nieuwoudt and Henry van der Westhuizen as the main role players?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Your instruction did not reach as far as to be involved with the execution of the coup?

MR NORTJE: No, it did not.