Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR NTSEBEZA: Now do I understand you to be saying there never were instances where you deliberately spread untruths about Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No I don't say there never were such incidents.

MR NTSEBEZA: Let's confine ourselves to those instances that you know of where disinformation or information that was obviously false, deliberately false, known to you as an operation to be false, was disseminated about Mrs Madikizela Mandela.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I can't think of a specific incident now but I'm sure that the Soweto people and Witwatersrand people disseminated information in forms of pamphleteering through their fronts and as you've seen books that were written and I think through news reports.

MR NTSEBEZA: No I was not asking for specifics.  I'm simply wanting to understand whether you as a person who was in charge of Stratcom are prepared to accept under oath and say so if you are able to say so that you are aware that false information about the character of Mrs Madikizela Mandela was spread by your operation in the knowledge that it was untrue?  Are you able to?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I am sure that there would be some incidents that would have been untrue.

MR NTSEBEZA: And on that basis do you concede that to the extent that that was untrue, it is the sort of thing that has done incalculable harm to her?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: It depends what the incident was.  I can't judge it now because I don't know what specific incident or incidents you are referring to.

MR NTSEBEZA: In general terms Mr McPherson, when you are spreading a falsehood about a person who's a national figure, do you concede that when it is false, whatever aspect it is, it does incalculable harm to her?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: It can do incalculable harm, that is true.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now have you ever as a person considered going to Mrs Madikizela Mandela and say this is what in my employment I was involved in, I'm sorry about it?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I can't say, I'll go and speak to her yes but I am not going to say I'm sorry.  The reason being, this Stratcom operation was started as a counter for similar operations that the African National Congress and SACP were also running, so therefore if you look at the Sechabas and the  Nkhululekus, and the African Communists and so forth, so this was as we would say, was war and it was necessary for a psychological war and many other political figures on the other sphere or other side within the previous government also there bore the brunt...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Well it is something that you did on behalf of the government of the day on behalf of the Nationalist Party.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No it was part of the government of the day.

MR NTSEBEZA: There never was another government, the government of the day was the Nationalist Party.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Ja it happened to be the ruling party.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr  McPherson you'll be relieved to know that you are very nearly at the end.  But I, without I hope abusing the chair, would like to ask you just one or two small questions.  Would you consider if you think back when you were heading up Stratcom, would you consider Archbishop Tutu as someone who advocated violence?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes Archbishop Tutu was also one of our subjects.  I'm saying this because I believe that Mrs Madikizela Mandela I was told felt that this operation Romulus was just directed at her but as I said in my earlier statement it was directed at quite a broad spectrum of people.  It was from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town, to the whole country.

DR BORAINE: It was right throughout the country and very fair but well you didn't answer my question.  I asked you if he was one of your subjects as you put it, was it because he was advocating violence?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No.

DR BORAINE: Was he then revolutionary?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Let me look at my.

DR BORAINE: You must know sure..

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No I would rather place him in the category of persons against, well you must see it in those days' context, persons against peaceful change.

DR BORAINE: You thought he was against peaceful change therefore you had an operation against him.  Would you say the same about opposition members of parliament during that time?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No, this...(intervention)

DR BORAINE: Why was I on the list?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Mr Boraine, Mr Chairperson you wouldn't believe it, I think you were in Durban at one time.

DR BORAINE: I was in Durban but my name was on the list in terms of the State Security Council while I was in parliament.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: In which category then?

DR BORAINE: Stratcom.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Pardon?

DR BORAINE: On the list of subjects under Stratcom.  Anyway it's not material, I just wanted to try and test the definition you gave us which you suggested was that this was an operation directed against all individuals and groups within South Africa advocating violence, considered as revolutionaries, persons against peaceful change.  It must have been a very very long list.

DR BORAINE: Anther question and that is, and perhaps I should put this to your colleague but let me find out if you know.  Was there such a thing in Soweto as and I'll use the phrase without any disrespect, a Winnie Mandela Desk within the Security Branch?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No at head office we did not have a desk on individuals.  We had a desk on the African National Congress, a desk on the South African Communist Party, a desk on the Pan Africanist Congress.  Then we had a desk for intelligence, we had intelligence gathering and we had a desk that controlled the secret funds and an administrative desk but we never had a desk on an individual.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  My last question, my colleague the Chairperson has a question as well, I may allow him to ask that, but let me just finish quite quickly.  To your knowledge, is there anything like Old Stratcom in terms of  your definitions, in any form within the police service today?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I don't think so.

DR BORAINE: I hope you're right.  Archbishop Tutu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  On page 11 of your submission relating to Annexure C, you are talking about something that happened on the 8th of November 1990, page 11.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Ja the annexure is dated 8th of November.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I don't want you to refer to the annexure itself because I'm interested in the fact that you speak about the formation of this Return Exile Coordinating Committee and then you have 24.2 which speaks about the purpose for the establishment.  I'm just interested in the date.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes the date...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No no I'm interested in the date.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: 8th of November 1990.  Yes, this is the date, they had to get approval, Stratcom had to get approval to use Bikock and this is the information note that was sent to the General for approval for the conference.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja I just want to ask that question.  The question is, this is after February the 2nd.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: After the President was released.

CHAIRPERSON: After the ANC and all of those organisations are unbanned.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: And negotiations...(intervention)

DR BORAINE: Could you just listen to the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please yes.

DR BORAINE: I'm protecting you.