Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MR POPANE: Whilst the comrades were entering the house of the deceased looking for him, they couldn't find him there.  I went at the back of them when they were all of them out, then I went into the house to look for him.  I entered through the window because at the time the doors were opened, then I entered through the window.  Then I found the wife of the deceased and a certain lady called Lizzie inside one of the rooms.  When they saw me to believe that maybe the deceased is in the house.  The way they were acting they were acting suspicious to show me that maybe the deceased is inside the house.  They were looking frightened.  The wife of the deceased took off the clothes and then he said he should not talk, she will give me.  She took off her clothes that I should tell other comrades. As a disciplined member I knew that I didn't come here to have sex with her. I went straight to the wardrobe then opened the wardrobe and then pick him out. Their eyes when they were talking with me,
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they were showing me that there is something in a wardrobe, then I went directly to the wardrobe, then I took him off the wardrobe.  They tried to plead with me, the wife exposed her thighs, so that I should just keep silent, because the comrades are angry they may kill her husband.  Then I took him by the hand then I shouted, then I shouted at the comrades that the person they are looking for, here is he, who is a liar. The first one who arrived first is Frans Masike, he's the one who met with me after I've shouted, then he entered.  Then he was followed by other comrades.  Then they took him off outside the house, it is then that he started being assaulted, then other comrades came again, some of them were comrade Andrew Moloto, Comrade Rangamanju, Comrade Bulelane, Comrade Coloma, Comrade Charlie, Comrade Albie Fasie. When he went out of the house he was assaulted already.  We went out through the door, being assaulted at the time. At the time other comrades were coming again and there were many.  Then they took him out, they turned through the passage, to the taxi rank.  I was following other comrades. When they were still assaulting him, those which I have already explained about, Comrade Frans was having a knife in his hand and Comrade Bulelane also was having a knife in his hand.  They stabbed him on the neck.  At the time he was powerless and then Comrade Bulelane were the ones who finished him off.  After that other people came with their stones and hitting him.  Comrade Andrew Moloto, when he was already finished, at that time he was having petrol, Comrade Moloto sprinkled him with petrol and he wanted to burn him.  It was not possible, one of the comrades prevented him not to burn him because he's already dead. Thereafter, then we went to Mary Agnes, at the time 
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the deceased was dead and the police came, then we went to Mary Agnes' house.  We advised the comrades who were seen doing the act to leave.  To the wife of the deceased I ask forgiveness what I have done because now she doesn't have the husband anymore. To the mother of the deceased, to Mrs Mazwi, I say sorry because she doesn't have a child any more and because of that I really ask for forgiveness and not forgetting to Charles I ask him forgiveness.  As we are now in the time for reconciliation we should forget what has passed. Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: You mentioned that you went through the window. Was this window open or did you break this window for you to enter the house or the bedroom?

MR POPANE: The window was opened, everything was opened all the doors were opened, windows were opened.

<UNKNOWN>: We were advised as to the conduct and activities of the deceased here, Mr Mazwi, now I want to know from you as a member of the political organisation at the time, would you say that such conduct of Mazwi was a hinderance to your activities?

MR POPANE: They were impinging our political activity at the time. Things which he has done, they were impinging on the political activity.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The killing of the deceased and the assault on Charles, did it make your organisation attain or achieve anything?

MR POPANE: I would say his death and assault of the other person did show that there was a sort of freedom in Kuma because thereafter we were able to have our rallies without
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any disruptions which happened, and the community were able to walk freely.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Couldn't that particular freedom and activity have been achieved by other means other than killing and assaulting?

MR POPANE: We tried to talk with this group.  We had so many meetings with the deceased and his gang, trying to bring solutions peacefully, we failed, all the times have failed to reach a peaceful settlement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What attempts were taken by your organisation towards this peace settlement?

MR POPANE: We had so many meetings with the vigilante group, we had a meeting at Vraganelo(?), we had another meeting at AMA Church, where the president of SAYCO was there. We had meetings with the Lawyers for Human Rights.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At all the three meetings you have just mentioned, were the vigilantes represented?

MR POPANE: They had their delegation in the meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Mzimeni one of them?

MR POPANE: In all the meetings we held, he was there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your own opinion would you say Mzimeni and company had some kind of force or authority behind them spurring them to do what they were doing?

MR POPANE: I would say the way we tried to talk with them you'd see that there is something behind them, there is something to make them to do all those things which they did. It was found at a later stage that these people, there is a person behind them and the person who's behind them is Pretorius and de Kock who were policemen.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Had you on your own ever witnessed some form of, or any action indicative of collaboration between the
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two police officers and Mzimeni and company, any incident?

MR POPANE: I have never seen any incident except the revelations which were made by one of them whom we have caught when we were, he's the one who talked about that and the other one is, when I entered the SAYCO office, I got a briefing that there were revelations which were made by Charlie to the comrades.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chairman, no further questions.

ADV DE JAGER: Weren't Mzimeni and Charles opposed to any peace talk with the police and working together with the police?

MR POPANE: Yes they were working together with the police as I said.

ADV DE JAGER: No my question was, were they, they opposed to the formation of the Peace Accord Group and wasn't that the reason why they broke away sort of, from the ANC?

MR POPANE: Altogether they were not prepared to bring peace in the location.

ADV DE JAGER: And were they against the Peace Accord, the Groote Schuur Minute?

MR POPANE: It shows that because we went to the meetings, in the meetings which we've held we did make some peace accords and they did agree with the peace accord then.  Thereafter they cast aspersions to their disagreeing with all the accords we have made.

ADV DE JAGER: And at the mass meetings, didn't they express any opinion?

MR POPANE: Their opinions were not exposed or expressed in public.  They were just coming to disrupt our meetings.

UNKNOWN: Mr Popane, I just want to make a follow
up on what my committee member has put to you.   When Mr 
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Mzimeni or Mr Mazwi attended the meetings which you had as the working group, did he cooperate with the people who participated in that working group?

MR POPANE: Altogether he was not in agreement and he was not cooperating with all the members.

UNKNOWN: Yet you would proceed to seal agreements which he in turn would not be able to comply with?