Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, yes, I don't quite understand your answer.  On two occasions within the last five minutes you
told the Committee that Venter was working with "us", referring to whom?  Who were the "us" that you referred to on two occasions?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: For example if you have an informer who is giving information to the Security Branch, he doesn't only give information to the security of the person, he's always protecting the security of all the policemen who are in charge or who are present at that time or who were working at the Special Branch.

MR VISSER: Did he ever have to give you information Mr Ngo, I am talking about Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was not my informer, he was informer to Mr Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Did you ever see him or hear him give information to any policeman, yourself?  I am talking about Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mr Erasmus was handling Mr Venter so I don't know what kind of informations they were collating at that time.

MR VISSER: On what factual ground are you saying that Erasmus was handling Venter, will you tell the Committee please?  On what factual grounds are you saying that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The first thing is he told me that he must protect me, he did protect me.

MR VISSER: Who told you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Lieutenant Erasmus told Venter to protect, Mr Venter did protect me.

MR VISSER: Yes, incidentally that will be denied but please carry on, yes, and is there anything else?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Like what Sir?

MR VISSER: Well I don't know, you are saying that Mr Venter was an informer, we would like to know why do you say that, because the police say that's not so.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I think the question was on what factual basis do you say that Mr Venter was handled by Mr Erasmus, and then you started by saying "in the first place", that's why Mr Visser wanted some more information from you, he thought that you are still going to add some more facts.  Because you started off by saying, "in the first place Venter was told to protect me and he did protect me".

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is the reason I was trying to explain that he was able to carry the instructions which were given by Lieutenant Erasmus that he must protect me, to give me proper protection, he did agree when he was told to protect me.  So that is the reason why I was satisfied that he was an informer and he was working together with Lieutenant Erasmus.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is that the only reason ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Because he protects someone who has been beaten up by a crowd of students, you think that means he is an informer?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was told by Mr Erasmus that Venter is Mr Erasmus' informer, that is why - that is how I was able to get hold of that information that Mr Venter is an informer.

MR VISSER: Will you please tell us when Erasmus gave you this information, when was that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which information Sir?

MR VISSER: The information you have just told the Committee for the first time about, that Erasmus told you that Venter was his informer?

MR NEMANE: Objection Mr Chairman this is misleading - my learned friend is not being fair to the witness, the witness' evidence-in-chief was that he was
informed by Erasmus that Venter was an informer and that has been the theme throughout, it has not been new evidence before the Committee.

MR VISSER: I will withdraw that question or that statement Mr Chairman it's not that important.  When did Erasmus tell you that Venter was an informer?  What year was it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is the time when he took me to Mr Venter when I was assaulted by the students, then I was taken there for protection, that's when Mr Erasmus told me about Mr Venter to be an informer.

MR VISSER: What year was it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I think it was in 1985.

MR VISSER: How old were you then?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't remember how old I was then.

MR VISSER: Well work it out please Mr Ngo, when were you born?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was born in 1963.

MR VISSER: 22 years old, and you were still at school and you were then assaulted by your fellow students and you were taken to Mr Venter, and you were approximately 22 years old, would that be correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If your calculation is good therefore that's true.

MR VISSER: Okay, now you say in your application form, at page 3 Mr Chairman, under 9C(ii), you refer to the victim as Mr Venter and you say the occupation and address of the victim and as his occupation you say he's a "trade union member", Mr Venter, do you stick to that evidence today?  That the occupation of Mr Venter was being a trade union member.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I know is that he was involved in the worker's activities and that includes trade union.

MR VISSER: I didn't hear the last part, "and that..." what?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That includes trade union.

MR VISSER: Okay, of which trade union was he a member according to your personal knowledge?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said he was in the trade union but I am not sure which kind of a union is that.

MR VISSER: But you are a policeman, were you aware of what trade unions were at large in - and operating in Bloemfontein at the time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I know of South African Railway Workers Union, I am not sure as to whether Mr Venter belonged to that Union or not.

MR VISSER: I see.  You see Mr Ngo you are the one who made the allegation, you made the allegation in writing saying that he was a trade union member, I know simply ask you of which trade union and you can't tell us.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is why I didn't write the actual name of the trade union, if I knew I did, if it was Cosatu or whatever Union I would write it down but I know that he was in the worker's struggle at that time.

MR VISSER: How do you know that he was member of the trade union and not merely a employee of the South African Railway?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was working at the Railways Sir.

MR VISSER: If you work at the Railways does that make you a member of the trade union automatically?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The information I got, or the impression I got is that Mr Venter was involved in the workers' struggle in the trains in - therefore I knew that if he took part in that struggle he was a member of a particular union.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now let's just, please would you define, for the members of the Committee what precisely Venter's part was in this struggle that you are talking about, what did he do?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was not monitoring his political activity, I was not his monitor therefore I cannot tell anybody about what he did.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, he was your friend, you stayed there for a while, you borrowed his car, you "loved the man" in your own words, please don't tell us that.  What was Venter doing that the police might have been interested in?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: On what did you base your impression that he was involved in the struggle?  Or on what information, or what information did you have that he was involved in the struggle?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I got the information from the information I got that he is involved in the workers' struggle and that he is informer to Mr Erasmus, as to whether he belonged to what organisations I don't know.

MR VISSER: So the answer to the question is your allegations of his activities in the struggle are based upon what Erasmus told you, is that the answer to the question?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I know that he was involved working with the Security Branch and he was an informant, but I don't know about his political activity or his Union activity.