Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-09

ADV DE JAGER: And is it correct that it was dated the 8th of July 1981?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, it seems like that.

ADV DE JAGER: So this was before they came to Port Elizabeth?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: You have already told us what the importance of Mr Kondile was as an informer, what kind of reception did you get from his side when you wanted to convince him to work for you?

MR DU PLESSIS: The normal fears, that we could give the necessary assurance that he would not be identified as an informer.

UNKNOWN: I think you are one question ahead of me, what was his attitude, was he prepared to co-operate or not?  What was the situation?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, he was prepared to co-operate.

UNKNOWN: And did you then start discussing the matter with one another?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage was it that he was prepared to co-operate with you and when was that?

MR DU PLESSIS: It's very difficult for me to tell you now exactly when, it was during his interrogation - I don't know exactly when it was.

UNKNOWN: Let me put it to you that if you could possible help His Honour - you can't be exact, that's you said.  Approximately how long - you said that you met him on the 10th of July, approximately how long after you started interrogating him did you start questioning him about the possibility about becoming an informer?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would say approximately two weeks after that.

UNKNOWN: And you said that Mr Kondile indicated that he was prepared to co-operate with you?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And as far as you were concerned, you already said that he was a well placed person and would have been a valuable source?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: At that stage, was a network established in Lesotho?  If I refer to a network, I'm talking about an information-gathering network of the South African security branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: How did you want to use Mr Kondile in Lesotho?

MR DU PLESSIS: The only way in which we would be able to use him and to get the information from him again, was to make use of a principle agent who at that stage already had several informers in Lesotho and the Transkei and he would have to communicate with him.  	This person had access to Lesotho, as well as ANC circles.

UNKNOWN: We weren't all in the espionage business, I think you must perhaps just explain to us, what kind of thing is a principle agent and what's the difference between that and an informer?  If you could perhaps just explain how these things work.

MR DU PLESSIS: The principle agent acts between you and the informer.  He often deals with informers or recruits them on his own, which - you have knowledge of it but you have not personally met these people.

UNKNOWN: It seems as though he's a manager of a team of informers, to put it in ordinary language?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: The principle agents, were they policemen or policemen who worked underground?  What was their position?

MR DU PLESSIS: Many of them were policemen.  This one, one can say that he was a policeman but not trained as a policeman.

UNKNOWN: Was this person based in Lesotho?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, there - let me make it more general, in the Transkei and Ciskei as well.

UNKNOWN: And did he have his various informers which he recruited himself and which infiltrated the ANC machinery in Lesotho?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And did the informers report back to him and he gave the information through to you again?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Did the informers have to be aware of how to make contact with the agent and who he was?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: And this information, was it conveyed to Mr Kondile?

MR DU PLESSIS: At that stage I did not have a choice, I had to.

UNKNOWN: If you say you did not have a choice?

MR DU PLESSIS: The information that I tried to obtain was information that we needed very urgently and therefore it was essential for me to have him transferred as soon as possible, so that I could gain - obtain the information from him, that's why I had to inform him as to how it was going to work and who would make contact with him.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you're saying that you told Mr Kondile who your principle agent was with whom he would be working?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Just to give an idea, this part of the network that the principle agent in Lesotho dealt with, that you have told us about - I think you've already testified as to this in another matter but I don't think it was before the same Commission, exiles from South Africa who went to Lesotho went to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The police had a photo album of exiles, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] that you had a very well established network which was established in Lesotho for example?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.
from South Africa who went to Lesotho went to the United Nations High Commissioner for refugees, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The police had a photo album of exiles is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: I mentioned the agent, the United Nations High Commissioner and the photo album, can you tell us how these things all fitted together?

MR DU PLESSIS: We had informers inside the United Nations High Commission for Refugees' offices.  This agent dealt with those informers.   In this way he obtained photos of people who applied for refugee status.   He also dealt with informers at the airport so that we knew who was flying and to where they were going.  I can also mention that the people he dealt with in the ANC on occasions we obtained the so-called biography of the exiles from Lesotho.

UNKNOWN: So in reality there was a well established network in Lesotho?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: And this agent of yours and his network, how would you describe or state his importance regarding the information-gathering machinery regarding the Lesotho activities?

MR DU PLESSIS: Our intelligence network mainly went through him.  There were reports that we obtained in other ways.  It was very difficult and the method of using him, this worked and that's why we used him.

UNKNOWN: We are now referring specifically to Lesotho, what was the Lesotho association with the Eastern Cape?

MR DU PLESSIS: Lesotho was the machinery for the Eastern Cape, Border, Transkei and Western Cape.

UNKNOWN: So in other words this was the foreign head office for these areas?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: And the intention was that Mr Kondile would also form part of this network, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I see it's nearly quarter past 11 I apologise, I didn't realise I had gone over the time already.  May this be an appropriate time to take the short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment and resume in 15 minutes.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HERMANUS DU PLESSIS: (s.u.o.)

MR DU PLESSIS: (cont)
	Before the adjournment you told us how the network functioned in Lesotho and why that network was important for the Western Province Security Branch.  Very shortly, Mr du Plessis, what was the situation in the Eastern Cape round about July, August 1981?

MR DU PLESSIS: Your Honour in the first place internally they were politicised and the ANC infiltrated more and more.  There were various onslaughts on the border and in the Eastern Cape there were bomb attacks in the Eastern Cape, especially on policeman and I think it had gone a far way at that stage.

UNKNOWN: And without an informer network an intelligence-gathering institution like the Security Police, could it function without that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Not at all.