Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: When Sicelo was killed did you agree that this was a good thing?  You say you were given reasons subsequent to that.  Did you agree that it was a good thing to kill him?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't want to say whether I agreed or disagree, I have no answer but as I already said, the community at large also knew that if one has been found or it has been established that one is an informer there were no any other means but to kill.

ADV SANDI: If Sicelo was an informer, would it have made any difference to you as to whether he was in a position to convey information to the police?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't know.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Zungu, did you see this transmitter that Sicelo been carrying?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

DR TSOTSI: You just accepted without question that he had in fact been carrying a transmitter?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I was only told once.

DR TSOTSI: Yes but you say you didn't say the transmitter, you were told that he was carrying the transmitter is that right?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Now the only reason therefore according to you that Sicelo was killed was that the fact that he was carrying this transmitter?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: You mean according to me?

DR TSOTSI: Yes according to you, I'm talking about you.

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: What I heard is that.

DR TSOTSI: No you told us before that the decision before had been that you should call Sicelo when had a ...(indistinct) and the question about what he had been doing, isn't that right, but that the possession of a transmitter changed that situation and it was therefore decided he would be killed?

MR KOOPEDI: With respect Honourable Committee Member, I do not recall this witness saying that was said by previous applicants but not him.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

COMMITTEE MEMBER: When Sicelo disappeared and you didn't see him, did you as a group discuss his position?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I was told that Sicelo has disappeared and therefore we must be alert, vigilant.

DR TSOTSI: Is that all that was said?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Did you anticipate, did you except that Sicelo would be killed when he arrived or were you taken by surprise when in fact he was killed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I had no idea as I said because I did mention that I was only told after the incident.

DR TSOTSI: Alright, that you had accepted the fact that Sicelo had been killed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I did not say that.

DR TSOTSI: You didn't say that after a time you had accepted?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Please may you repeat your question?

DR TSOTSI: Did you accept that it was correct to have killed Sicelo when he was killed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Even when I realised that but at that time there was nothing much I could have done or I could do.

DR TSOTSI: Isn't it a fact that you were persuaded to accept the killing of Sicelo because of these allegations that he was carrying a transmitter?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Please repeat that question?

DR TSOTSI: That isn't it a fact that you associated yourself with the killing of Sicelo because you heard that he was killing a transmitter?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: If that had already happening whether I was also associating myself or not it mattered not.

ADV SANDI: But Mr Zungu, sorry, I must say that may you sound very vague and non-committal in your responses to the questions that are being asked but why have you applied for amnesty for this incident?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I'm now applying for amnesty because this happened in the company of my comrades and I was part of them as well.

ADV SANDI: You didn't do anything, you did not even know why he was killed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Yes as I already said I only got the explanation afterwards.

ADV SANDI: Did you accept that explanation, did you feel that those reasons were sufficient to kill Sicelo?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I had no any other way but to follow what was happening.

ADV SANDI: Why did you not disclose what had happened to the organisation or even to the family including the police?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: The state in which we were working and exposed to was obvious that whatever we were doing had to happen underground and to take place underground.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, sorry ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: And it's correct is it not that you did not inform anyone of what you had seen happening that evening?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR RICHARD: As to the further witnesses, at present I have two.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any other witnesses?

MR KOOPEDI: I have no other witnesses to call.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) Richard?

MR RICHARD: Sorry Chairperson, I was participating.  I have two witnesses present, Mr Joe Tlhwale has arrived.  My request is that we adjourn for about 10 minutes while I confirm and take - otherwise I'll be leading him on ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll take a very short adjournment.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ADV SANDI: Can you please give us your full names?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: (sworn states)

MR RICHARD: Sir, I must start by thanking you for coming to the hearing at such short notice and thank you for waiving proper notice of service of the subpoena.

CHAIRPERSON: We will add our thanks to that so that we can dispose of this hearing.

MR RICHARD: In and during the period 1986 through to 1988, where were you working?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: At the Detainees Parents Support Committee as a welfare officer.

MR RICHARD: What did this organisation do?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: We were looking after the needs of the detainees and political prisoners.

MR RICHARD: Now who else worked with you at the time?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: The late Sifuma Sita, Daphne Mashele and Tommy Mashabane and also the late Sicelo Dhlomo was working as a volunteer worker with us.

MR RICHARD: When did the deceased, Mr Dhlomo, start working at the organisation?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I can't recall the date but I think he came in just after his arrest.  When he was arrested I'm not sure when in 1987, when he had a pistol with him, just after coming out of detention into the office and he was given a position as a volunteer worker.

MR RICHARD: And when did you first meet him?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I met him around '86.

MR RICHARD: Was it as a result of his approach to the DPSC for assistance?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now how many days would he be there?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Usually he would come to the office from Monday to Friday and even sometimes we'll have tea parties for parents of detainees.  He'll also help in those situations.

MR RICHARD: And now in October 1987 were you aware of any particular events, was he detained?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I know that he was detained.

MR RICHARD: What do you know about that detention?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think on that day he was in the office with us and what happened was that mainly the ...(indistinct) which was bombed, the entrance downstairs, the security guard had there an alarm system ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: I'm talking about October 1987, January 1988, there were two events.  Now according to my instructions on the 12th October 1987 Mr Dhlomo was detained while on his way to school, are you aware of that incident?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I'm not sure whether I can recall that or not.

MR RICHARD: Now at that stage did you receive any request for accommodation or rearrangement of his sleeping arrangement?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I think he did because of the harassment which we got from the police and I had a flat in Hillbrow and I offered that he can come and stay with me because I was staying alone in that flat.

MR RICHARD: Now when he came to stay with you, do you remember from when it was?