Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR KRUSE: Now do you remember the torture methods you used on Niclo Pedro?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I have just got to get this into perspective.  He was arrested by the Security Branch, Aliwal North.  I think it was on the border with Lesotho, at (indistinct)

MR KRUSE: When he came to Culemborg, what methods were used on him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I used the black bag method on him too.

MR KRUSE: Besides the black bag?  That is a pertinent, I am sure you remember, it was very important for you to get the rest of the people.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: So you should remember.  I put it to you that Yasmina apparently will tell you that she saw you doing the same method you used to me, on him.  She saw you doing that, hanging Niclo Pedro up.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It may be possible Your Honour, although Niclo Pedro and them were brought down by the Eastern Cape ...

MR KRUSE: That is not the question, the question is she says at Culemborg when he was in your hands, when you were interrogating him, you hung him up in a similar fashion, and you should remember that because that was a pertinent arrest?  You remember that day, don't you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think the hanging up and handcuff to the trellis, maybe interpreted differently by different people.

MR KRUSE: I think we are quite intelligent people, we know the difference between handcuffing and hanging up.  I think we made the distinction.  My hands would not have bled if I was just handcuffed to the trellis.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is 10 years ago Sir, I am battling, but as far as Niclo Pedro is concerned, I am almost sure that he had come down early the morning with Aliwal North's people and he was kept in that room as a confinement and not as a torture.

MR KRUSE: I will continue with myself.  I mean, at the end of the first day after about an hour or so, your people were called out and you received no information from me yet, at that stage, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure, I worked your interrogation after your arrest.

MR KRUSE: You were heading my interrogation, I am telling you now.  You were heading my interrogation.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Okay, and you say we got no information from you?

MR KRUSE: I only gave you misinformation on someone's address, which you went to and find no one there, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, we went to an address where we couldn't find the person.  He lived there, but he wasn't there.

MR KRUSE: No, he didn't live there, his granny stayed there.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Okay.  Isn't that true that you then took me to Sea Point police station?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot remember the sequence of events Sir.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that you told them not to book me into the register, so I can't re registered there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not aware of that.

MR KRUSE: I think Sea Point registers will indicate that I was not booked in there that night.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure, I am honestly not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps this might be a convenient stage to take a break.  We will adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS FOR 15 MINUTES

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where Mr Kruse is?

MS INTHANGA: No Chair, I don't know.  I can go and check  where he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, will you ...

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, can I make one remark.  During the break, I consulted a Psychiatrist, Dr Kotze, she is a Psychiatrist and she will prepare a report which would be submitted to the Committee tomorrow.  She will fax it tonight and it amounts to this, because of the trauma experienced by my client, and all the various experiences, there was a psychological block and therefore he cannot remember certain incidents.
	And it is not because my client is not cooperating fully, but there were certain mental blockages.

ADV DE JAGER: Will she be available to give evidence, to be cross-examined?

UNKNOWN: She has a problem with that, in the sense she is fully committed, and she did not know beforehand that she had to be available, but she is prepared to provide you with a full report.
	But it is a general psychiatric condition in any case.  This results from trauma.

CHAIRPERSON: We will consider the report and we will have to decide how much weight to attach to its contents.

UNKNOWN: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: What is happening Mr Brink?

MS INTHANGA: We have been informed that he is on his way up, Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: I think they get taken down, I think it is the 7th floor, for briefing and that sort of thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think that they should be told that there is a break, when we adjourn for 15 minutes, we try to resume within that time.

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are you aware of how many other people would be asking questions of this witness?

MR PAPIER: I don't have any instructions with regard to these matters, but we would still be calling the two sisters of Ashley Kriel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS INTHANGA: Chairman, I would like to advise the Committee that I had been approached by one of the speakers from the victims of torture, and I have been informed that Advocate Donen will be speaking on behalf of Mr Anwar Dramat and Niclo Pedro who are unable to attend today.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kruse, I hope you have a very good reason for keeping us waiting.

MR KRUSE: Sorry Chairman, we went down with the people of the TRC and they brought us up, but I didn't know the time.  We get lost in the building, so we had tea and they just spoke to me to calm me down and then I came back.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have a lot to do and when we say we want to adjourn for 15 minutes, we try, we try.

MR KRUSE: I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may resume putting questions to this witness.
JEFFERY T.BENZIEN: (still under oath)

MR KRUSE: (continued)  I think we were at the stage where we were at Sea Point police station, Chairperson and do you remember what happened at Sea Point police station?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Your Honour, I do not.

MR KRUSE: Were you in a sober state of mind at that stage?

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage is that?

MR KRUSE: At the stage, after torturing me and taking me after an hour or so to the Sea Point police station?

CHAIRPERSON: He says he cannot remember actually whether he took you there?

MR KRUSE: That is why I am asking if he was in a sober state of mind, he doesn't seem to remember anything.

JUDGE WILSON: If he can't remember you going there, how can he remember what state of mind he was in?

CHAIRPERSON: It is 10 years ago.

MR KRUSE: The question I want to know, let me put it to you this way, when we came to the police station, I was put in a cell and not entered into the register.
	Do you concede to that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember going to ...

MR KRUSE: I think the registers at the police station will reflect that.  Do you remember giving instructions to the guard at the gate not to allow me to sleep that night?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't remember going to Sea Point police station, Sir.

MR KRUSE: You don't remember fetching me the next morning, early, either?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember the morning you used the black bag treatment on me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I remember a morning where I used a black bag on you, yes.

MR KRUSE: Where did you fetch me from before you gave me that black bag treatment?

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you?

MR KRUSE: Where did he get me from to bring me to Culemborg to apply that method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was under the impression somebody else brought you from Sea Point, if you were at Sea Point.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that Liebenberg said to you that I am "hardegat" and I am refusing to speak and you must deal with me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is possible that he could have said that, yes.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that you and Goosen then started punching me in my face?