Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: At the beginning I said on my arrival there, I assessed the area, and other places there, and after that I made a collective assessment of the whole region.  In other words it means that myself, I realised during that assessment that in a particular area the community there behave in a certain way, the police in that area behave in a certain way in different times, like for example at the end of the month.  So what I'm trying to say here is that there is no-one who told me, but I found that out myself when I was doing my assessment, I realised the way in which they behave, I realised that they relax.

MR MALAN: And after Mr Bhani reported to you that he identified the target, you nevertheless deemed it fit to go out twice to confirm this again, do I understand your evidence to be that?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: It was necessary that I should also go there and make an assessment.  As a regional commander, it has to be clear that I was not commanding the air but the people, their security.  If anything happens to one of them, or when they meet, if anything happens to them, I will be responsible and then I will have to answer how did it happen to Africa, in other words I have to be responsible and account to anything that will happen to them, that is the members of APLA.  Like I've already said, I was a member of the security, they were also members of our security.

MR MALAN: Let me ask you this last question, what did you learn on those two follow-up visits, after identification of the target, and you say it was over weekends, that you did not know before?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Can you please repeat your question?

MR MALAN: What did you learn about this target when you specifically went there by taxi on two weekends that you did not know before from your general reconnaissance and getting to know the area, because you told us you knew that supermarket, you knew the area, you knew the police's behaviour, you knew that they were reclining and relaxing and drinking over weekends, what did you learn after the identification of the target that you didn't know before?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: The most important thing was to make sure what M'Afrika told me was true, and to ascertain what I have gathered will corroborate with what M'Afrika have told me, the information that he gave me and the information that I have gathered myself, it was just a question of corroborating the information that he brought to me.  On the other side, I also have information that I gathered myself from what I saw there during the weekend and that which M'Afrika told me, whether it's in line with the information that I already have.

MR MALAN: Now what information did he give you that you needed to corroborate that you didn't have before?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: The information that he gave me that I already knew was that that place was frequented by the police and the members of the AWB.  I already knew that information, but the most important thing that I want to say, the reason why I went there was that, one, first, as a regional commander I have to be responsible and account to my seniors, because if one of our members die or get injured in a particular place, I could not rely... (intervention).

MR MALAN: We've heard that, you don't have to repeat that.  Frankly, I simply asked you about additional information, I don't ask you about your responsibilities and duties, I asked you whether there was any information you got from Bhani that you did not have before.  Was there any or was there not?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Okay.  He just confirmed what I already knew.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now, can you tell the Committee your role regarding, did you play any role regarding the transport to Wesselsbron and also your involvement regarding the firearms that were used in the operation?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Starting with the weapons, I will say I sent the late Comrade Zukwa, I sent him to Umtata so that he can go and get supplies of arms, money and the weapons.  What would happen is that he came, together with Comrade Moalusi.
	Unfortunately when they arrived with Comrade Moalusi, I was not there, I was in Kroonstad.  The following day, in the morning, I arrived again in Welkom, and then I met Comrade Zukwa waiting for me at the hostel as we have arranged.  On my arrival at the hostel, he told me that he has brought with him the parcels.  So when I inspected the parcels, I realised that they are R4's, grenades, ammunition and the rifle grenades.  So the other Africa had already left, that is M'Afrika Moalusi, he had already gone back.  
	On the arrival of these weapons, I took one rifle and I gave it to Comrade Ryder, I was left with only one rifle and then I took three bullets, I gave them to Themba Ngesi.  I gave one ammunition and rifle to Comrade Themba and three I gave it to Themba, I told him to hide it and I was left with one.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I'm getting confused, could we stay with the names of the individuals that we know, as we know them?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll try my best, the problem is that they don't know themselves with the actual names, so that's why he's (indistinct) now in the affidavit we have used the actual names, so that's why most of the time they use the names they were using in the operations.  So, Comrade Chairman, I think Zukwa he said is Sebinzile, if I may correct, do you confirm that Mr Khotle, and Themba Gesi is Silimela Ngesi, Mr Chairman, the second applicant, who has already testified before you.

CHAIRPERSON: And Moalusi?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Moalusi Morrison I think is the fourth applicant, Morrison, Mr Chairman.  Proceed, Mr Khotle.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: You asked me two questions concerning the arms, can you please remind me of another question, can you please repeat the other question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I've asked you whether you did play a role in getting the transport which was used in the operation?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: When coming to transport, the role that I played was that I sent Dennis Sibande to go and meet Stanley Tshoane to tell him that he must be ready about the bus that we have already talked about.  My arrangement with Tshoane before the incident, before I sent Sibande, was that if I do not manage to get to him, I'll send somebody and then when he arrived there, talking about the parcel, he should know that he was sent by me.  So I told Tshoane to be ready with the transport.  Thereafter, that is on the day of the attack, I went to fetch Tshoane, then I sent them to Wesselsbron together with Comrade Ngesi and Comrade Sibande and Comrade Sebinzile.  So that is the role that I can say I played inasfar as the transport is concerned.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, Mr Khotle, my last question to you, you confirmed before this Committee that Wesselsbron Supermarket was attacked on your instructions?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you will be?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll push along, Mr Chairman, I'll push along.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can you just remind me again, what was your political objective you sought to be achieved by attacking the supermarket, what was your political objective?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Specifically the supermarket itself will not bring us to freedom, but what was important is that the supermarket itself would help us to move forward with our war, that is our struggle.  So that was one of the ways that would help us to move forward with our struggle.

MR MALAN: You, in your evidence in chief talked about the money as the objective there, that would fund you for further moving forward, is that correct?