Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

MR CORNELIUS: Gen Van der Merwe, during the Khotso House hearing answered as follows - Chairperson, and I quote from the record, the transcription thereof.  I asked Gen Van der Merwe what would happen if an order was not followed, and he answered as follows
"... no, it would not create a security risk, but if a person refuses to carry out an order, it is obvious that such a person would be removed from that Unit.  Nobody would have wanted to work with such a person, if that person was not willing to participate in a task with the rest of the Unit."
	Is that your feeling as well?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson, I would like to qualify it.  It was that C1 at Vlakplaas was a voluntary Unit, people applied to come there, they were never forced or coerced to join.  And then before any operation was launched, the group which was selected, was called aside, they were informed as to the nature of the operation and to those members who wanted to withdraw from this operation, I would then replace them with other members.  This was not concerned with the fact that other people were scared.  Our tolerant level are not the same or as high as the other members, it is not the same for everybody, but some members requested not to be sent on a particular operation, but would go on a next operation.

MR CORNELIUS: But the members right through, had all the political motives to keep the government of the day safe and to fight the enemies of the State?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, they were very committed.

MR CORNELIUS: I quote once again to an answer of Gen Van der Merwe
"... if it concerns that this person would be removed, thereof I have no doubt but no further steps would be taken against this person, except for the fact that I think in general, such person would have had a difficult life in the South African Police."
	Would you agree with that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, I would.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  Mr Rossouw, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?  Sorry, Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do.  Mr Chairman, I do have a few questions.  Mr De Kock, in the annexure to Mr Nortje's application, Mr Chairman, may I just enquire whether you have been provided with the supplemented portions of the amnesty application of Mr Nortje yet, I do intend just to ask a few questions on that aspect, specifically ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to this addendum, this supplementary affidavit?

MR LAMEY: No Mr Chairman, that is also an additional portion, but I am referring specifically to the Form 1, that one before you.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will refer to this new Form 1 as Exhibit B and the affidavit as Exhibit C?

MR LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Mr De Kock, just as an introduction, as a review to your involvement at Vlakplaas, before this, you were an Operational Commander in Koevoet in Namibia, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje was also in your group in Namibia, he was part of Operation Koevoet?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje in his amnesty application, I don't know if you have had regard for the documents, I have given it to your legal representatives this morning, but at some stage he requested a transfer to Unit C1 at Vlakplaas and you had assistance in this application.  Mr Chairman, I am referring to paragraph 2.2.1 on page 7 of Exhibit B.

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje says that his future involvement he saw as a continuation of his experience in the bush in former Southwest Africa and he would continue it in the Republic and against the liberation movements and all related organisations?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.  This war had never stopped, it just continued.

MR LAMEY: What is of import here, and I deduce from this and I would like you to comment on it, that before your time as a Commander at Vlakplaas, when you took over command at Vlakplaas, this type of persons who had this operational experience were the ideal candidates to become members of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Such a person had foreseen that during his involvement at Vlakplaas, he would - his operational experience would be put to use during operations against the known liberation movements?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And he also further states, paragraph 2.2.5 that as you also have said that from his viewpoint, the border war had just moved to inside the country, to combat the liberation movements and the purpose during this process, was to keep the government in place?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And he further states that because of his exposure at that stage, that he was highly motivated to fight for the government and to stop the liberation movements?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson, he was one of the best there was.

MR LAMEY: Mr De Kock, it is also true that as Commander, before a planned operation, you would select the persons who would be involved?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Your selection, was this that they would be selected for that task because of their merits of previous operations and the trust that you had in them, that they would be of assistance to you and had the necessary knowledge to carry out the operation and you had the confidence in them and that they would adhere to the secrecy of a covert operation?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: I would like to return to the role that was played by the DCC and Commandant Anton Nieuwoudt, in this specific instance, let's call it the Duli coup, just to distinguish from the other coups that was attempted, Mr Nortje in his amnesty application states that - let me ask you in the following manner, is it correct that Mr Nortje was only involved in one of the three attempted coups?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, no, I believe that he was involved with the third instance where we delivered the weapons to Mr Kruger, Casper Kruger, who was under the command of Commandant Nieuwoudt.  It was delivered at his house and it was later moved to an undisclosed place.

MR LAMEY: Is your recollection unsure or are you definitely sure?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I have a vague memory thereof.  I do not want to confirm it as irrevocable.

MR LAMEY: My instructions from Mr Nortje is that he was not involved with the third coup or with the supply of weapons thereof.

EUGENE DE KOCK: I would accept it as such Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: What he does say in his application is that - the date 1992, it would seem that he says it would seem faulty, it was during 1990 that you told him that DCC was planning a coup and that Anton Nieuwoudt and Hendrik or Henry van der Westhuizen from DCC would be the particular persons involved with the planning thereof?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, that was the first instance.

MR LAMEY: Would you then say that there was no role that Van der Westhuizen and Nieuwoudt had played previously with regard to this specific attempt?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Is this the first or the second?

MR LAMEY: The second?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, it is my contention that Anton Nieuwoudt played a very invasive role in the second attempt and during the first attempt, Henry van der Westhuizen delivered the weapons, because Anton Nieuwoudt and I flew to Vienna, where we recruited a senior ANC member.

MR LAMEY: Could you just shed some more light, what role did Van der Westhuizen and Anton Nieuwoudt play before this operation was launched with regard to the second attempted coup?