Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR MAMOME: I know him, I've helped his sister when he was raped.
MR. MAMANE:: Helped his sister when she was raped, is that what you said?

MR MAMOME: That is correct

ADV MEMANI: And do you know Yster?

MR MAMOME: I know Yster he was my friend.

ADV MEMANI: As far as you are aware are there any ill feelings between yourself and Jeff Mabilo

MR MAMOME: No Sir, not at all.

ADV MEMANI: Indeed he must be indebted to you if you helped his sister, isn't it?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman I'm just trying to cut out some of the questions.
	Isn't it not so that there are no differences between yourself and Mr Motsamai?

MR MAMOME: I regarded him as my younger brother we, did not a conflict or an ill feeling.

ADV MEMANI: Now you told us that you knew Kabusa and Kabusa was your friend, isn't it?

MR MAMOME: Kabusa was my colleague not a friend.

ADV MEMANI: And Nicos was your friend?

MR MAMOME: That is correct, that is correct Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it correct that at the time when Nicos' house was bombed Kabusa was not living there?  In fact those are my instructions from Nicos himself.

MR MAMOME: I'm not sure of the days Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: But are you aware that at that stage Kabusa was no longer living at Nikos' house?

MR MAMOME: It might be possible but I'm not sure.

ADV MEMANI: Now yesterday you also told us about the little girl who disappeared and the last person that was seen with the little girl was a little boy, isn't it?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: And no-one was charged for the death of that girl because the little boy had killed the child isn't it?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, when we asked this boy he agreed that he killed that little girl.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was this little boy?

MR MAMOME: 14 years Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: I want us to deal with Oupa Makubalo.  My instructions are that you are the person who came into the - just one second, my instructions are that you are the person who came into the kitchen and said that your informer had told you that he had seen Oupa.

MR MAMOME: You saying he saw Oupa?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct, Makubalo.

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, it seems to the question is incomplete, I request Mr Memani to put it again.

CHAIRPERSON: What he said was you were the person who came into the kitchen and said that your informer had seen Oupa.

MR MAMOME: There was nothing I've said about Makubalo except the time when we arrested him in Botshabelo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: This aspect was not taken up with a number of previous witnesses who kept on saying it was Mr Motsamai who came in and said, and made that kind of report Mr Memani.  I'm just mentioning this because it strikes me as though this was not put to the other witnesses unless I missed that aspect.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, that was denied.  I do not recall if I specifically put that it was Mamome but if if I did not put put it to the other witnesses it was due to oversight.  My recollection would be that even in his evidence Motsamai said Mamome came and made the report.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Alright, we'll check the record, thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now my instructions are that you are the person who came and made the report that your informer had seen Mr Makubalo.

MR MAMOME: I dispute that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: And my instructions again are that the informer who was killed by Makubalo was was in fact your informer.

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, we speak about human life, a person who has been murdered.  He has been stabbed and poured with petrol and then he was hit with a stone on the head.  Today's the first time, hearing Mr Motsamai through Mr Memani, that that informer was mine.
	It is surprising, we speak of human life a human life.  Maybe the truth would not come out but the person who has killed and the person who handled that person would surface.

ADV MEMANI: Now, when you arrived at the place where Makubalo was, we are told that you shot, you  first without speaking to Makubalo.

MR MAMOME: It is not like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Now you also told us that you the person who caught Makubalo, isn't it?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Did you at any stage say that Motsamai must stop shooting?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And Makubalo told us that he heard gun fire until the time when he decided that come what may, he was no longer going to run away and you came and tripped him.

MR MAMOME: It's not like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Now, as you were running, were you the one who was at the forefront?

MR MAMOME: I came with a car then I stopped it just in front of him.

ADV MEMANI: And you started pursuing Makubalo?

MR MAMOME: No, I caught him Mr Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Didn't you pursue him?

MR MAMOME: Oupa was standing next to - at a house, then he saw Mr Motsamai, then he ran around then Mr Motsamai started shooting then he jumped a fence to the next street, then I came with another street, then we met somewhere on that street.

ADV MEMANI: Did you not pursue him?

MR MAMOME: Yes, I did.

ADV MEMANI: Then why did it take you so long to concede that you pursued him?

MR MAMOME: Mr Memani, I've explained how it came about that I should caught this person.

CHAIRPERSON: But a moment ago you when you were asked you specifically said: "I did not pursue him, I caught him", now you say you pursued him.

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I pursued him with a car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did the others run after him and you drove round to another road in a car?

MR MAMOME: That's correct Sir, that is like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: You see in order for you to catch Mr Makubalo, if you were running on feet, you would have been the one who was at the forefront isn't it?

MR MAMOME: No Chairperson, it's not like that.

ADV MEMANI: You see, because Mr Makubalo told us that the person who caught him approached him from behind and tripped him.

MR MAMOME: It's not like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Or let me say that the impression that I got is that the person who caught him approached him from behind.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I'm a bit confused now also because a moment ago you put it to the witness that  that Oupa decided that he'll come out and he stopped running and came forward and was caught by this person.

ADV MEMANI: It may not have been correctly interpreted to you.  I said that he decided come what may he was not going to run away anymore and the person then came and caught him.

COMMISSIONER: Was he standing waiting for this person to come up: "Come what may, I'm not going to run away anymor".  Was he stationary when he waiting for the person to come forward?

ADV MEMANI: I'm sorry to interrupt you Mr Chair, his evidence that is was that he stopped running and just walked.

INTERPRETER: Interpreters are disturbed by a Radio Chairperson.
[RADIO DISTURBANCES]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I've just lost my cushion here.
	Now Mr Mamome, we were told that the car was parked at the spot where it stopped when Makubalo was first seen.

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir, it's like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Well, let me say near the -  next to the vehicle.

MR MAMOME: I was the driver of that car, I'm not sure that there was a person who remained in the car.

ADV MEMANI: I think it was Mmelesi who said he did not join in the chase, he stood next to the car while the rest of you chased Oupa.

MR MAMOME: I pursued Oupa with a car, I was not pursuing him on foot.  When I arrived next to Oupa I stopped the Kombi then I said to him: "Stop", then I did not run after him but I pursued him with a car.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand from what you've just said  that the car you pursued him in was the Kombi that you'd come from Fountain Street in. Is that so?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Mmelesi did not have any reason to lie about the vehicle isn't it?