Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes we did.

MR BOOYENS: Did you stop there, sleep over at people or anything like that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No we did not.

MR BOOYENS: Would it have been the normal route to go via Ermelo to the Eastern Transvaal, that's from Bloemfontein?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it is the route that I knew.

MR BOOYENS: Because you were stationed in the Eastern Transvaal?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any contact with anybody from the Security Branch at Ermelo?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: Did anybody know that you were there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember if you stopped there, not to put in petrol but for any other reason?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: When you arrived at Komatipoort you met Dirk Coetzee and Roy Otto, tell us what happened then?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: They drove ahead of us and we followed.  I didn't actually know that part and I cannot remember whether we drove for approximately half an hour when we turned off onto a gravel road we came to a bushy area, a forest area and that's where we stopped.

MR BOOYENS: What happened then?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: We got out of the cars, I explained to Coetzee and Otto once again what the problem was and what my suggestion was and we had to eliminate the man and whether it was possible to get the body to the Mozambique side of the border and so forth and Mr Coetzee then made the suggestion that if we did not want the body to be found then he suggested that we burnt the body.  They had wood and a great deal of wood was available and that we should rather burn the body and they would ensure that the remains would be thrown in the Komati River where it would drift away to Mozambique.

MR BOOYENS: From where you were could you see the river?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: What happened then?  If you can just tell us what happened there.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I agreed with Mr Coetzee's suggestion and Mr Coetzee also mentioned to me that he had a sleeping drug and whether it would be necessary for him to give this to the man so that he could fall asleep so that we could eliminate him while he was asleep and not while he was awake, and I said yes, I thought that was a very good suggestion, and that he could go ahead.
	We braai'ed some meat and we ate.  This man sat close to us with his back against the tree trunk, his arms were cuffed in front of him.  He was also given some meat which he ate.  I did not see Mr Coetzee put anything in his drink.  Mr Coetzee gave him something to drink, I don't know whether it was cool drink or a beer and he drank it, and approximately, I will have to guess, but approximately half an hour after that the man started swaying slowly.  His head lurched and he went to lie on his side. And then somebody then said that we should now finish off.

MR BOOYENS: Who was this person?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I am not sure.

MR BOOYENS: Could it have been you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes it could have been me, but I am not sure.  While I was still sitting there Mr Otto jumped up and the next moment I saw what I suspected was his official firearm, he bent over the man and fired a shot.  I am not quite sure whether he shot him in the temple or behind the ear, I suspect that it was one of those two places.  Some of us helped to carry the wood and to pile it on top of one another and somebody lit the wood, the fire and this way he was burnt the whole evening and wood was added until the early morning hours, until the body had been incinerated.

MR BOOYENS: And did you leave?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, then we left.

MR BOOYENS: I have just missed something.  Did you get Kondile's car in Bloemfontein?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes we did.

MR BOOYENS: Who drove it from there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Raaths drove it.

MR BOOYENS: What happened to this car?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think that we left the car somewhere between Badplaas and Barberton, but I would say closer to Barberton.  We drove it off the road among the bushes.

MR BOOYENS: And then Mr Raath drove with you from there on?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you leave there that morning?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you go directly back to Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You confirm therefore with what you've already said orally as appears on page 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, do you confirm what you have said that you lied to the Harms Commission?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the evidence as set out on these pages of your application?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I confirm this.

MR BOOYENS: You have already mentioned, or Mr du Plessis mentioned that there was co-operation on high levels between the Defence Force and the police, were you also aware of this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I was.

MR BOOYENS: And later when you were at head office, did you also have knowledge of the fact that on high level they were working actively at the successful combating or fighting of this war?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I was aware of it.

MR BOOYENS: When some of these things were investigated, when there were enquiries etc, you are an experienced policeman what was your impression regarding the standard of those investigations?  Were they enthusiastic about investigating the disappearance of possible activists or people who were murdered?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, most cases that I can remember, the specific section asked for a report.

MR BOOYENS: So no real attempts were ever made to investigate this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You deal with your political objectives on page 10 and 11 although it's also interwoven in the rest of your application, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Perhaps just to summarise, what in your opinion, I am now speaking about '81 when the Kondile incident took place, what in your opinion was the function of the Security Police, why were you there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: We were there to combat the revolutionary Communist onslaught directed at the country in order to oppose the ANC Communist alliance, to prevent them from succeeding in overthrowing the government of the country and paralysing the government.

MR BOOYENS: And what was spelt out to you, what was your role in this regard as Security police, what did the politicians, head office and your senior officers tell you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That we had to oppose this with everything that we had at our disposal.  We had to do everything in our power to prevent the country from being overthrown, or the government from being overthrown.

MR BOOYENS: You said that you did not know Mr Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You became involved in his murder?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why?  What is a personal thing?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.  I became involved because in my opinion at that stage this man was being a threat to our safety and....

MR BOOYENS: Were you also aware of the fact that Mr Kondile was a trained ANC cadre?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes Mr du Plessis told me this.

MR BOOYENS: Did you - you have already said that you did not know him personally, did you have anything personally against him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No not at all.