Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

CASE NO: CT/00269

<UNKNOWN>: SENTENCED TO DEATH &

TESTIMONY BY: PHATHEKILE HANS [ brother]

WENDY ORR: Mr Hans can you hear the translation coming threw the earphones?

GQIBILE HANS: No.

WENDY ORR: Can you hear me now?

GQIBILE HANS: Ja.

WENDY ORR: Thank you, Mr Hans would you please stand to take the oath.
PHATHEKILE NORMAN HANS Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much, I'd like to say a very worm welcome to you Mr Hans.  Thank you for coming here today to tell us about something which happened a long ago, but I'm sure it's still very fresh in our memory and I'm going to hand you over to Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela who will be facilitating your evidence.

MS GOBODO: I also thank you on behalf of this panel.
Could those people who don't need their phoned, pass them on to those who need them please.  The first two witnesses are Xhosa speaking and all Xhosa speakers please pass your cell phone - headphone on, could you. Thank you.  You are not going to need the headphone because you shall be communicating in Xhosa and there's no need for it, thank you.
You have come now the tell us about your brother, Gqibile, who was hanged in 1967.  We would want you to give us a background to all what happened and explain to us what was the cause of his arrest.  Was he perhaps an activist, politically, and give us  a full picture of his activities which led to his arrest.  Gqibile was a POQO activist.

GQIBILE HANS: Yes

MS GOBODO: What was his activity in POQO?

GQIBILE HANS: He was one of the members of the POQO but quite active.

MS GOBODO: What year - what - in what year was he arrested?

GQIBILE HANS: He was arrested in September, on the 28th in September 1961.

MS GOBODO: What were the causes that made him to go to jail?

GQIBILE HANS: Those times it was difficult, people would be arrested for just being a member of a political party and people would be detained and would be kept in jail for about a year without going to court and until the person would appear in court after a long time.

MS GOBODO: Now I would like us to emphasize  mostly on Gqibile and tell us exactly what was the exact cause for his arrest?

GQIBILE HANS: There were many incidence but he was arrested because he seen as a person who indented to over through the Government.  They were just taken from home only because they were member of the political parties.

MS GOBODO: So we did hear from Mr Maart - Rev Maart that people who were dying at the time.  Now in September when Gqibile was arrested, were there any other people who died in the - as  community members?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, there were.

MS GOBODO: Why were the people killed at the time, just before Gqibile was killed?

GQIBILE HANS: We heard that people who were killed were the informers and those who were alleged to be informers.

MS GOBODO: So you say those people who were killed were those who are alleged to be informers?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes

MS GOBODO: I just want to have a clear picture of what was happening.  How were these people killed in 1961?

GQIBILE HANS: People were killed anyhow.  Some were wrapped in blankets and burnt.

MS GOBODO: So in the location you say people were being burnt as soon as they were suspected that they were informers?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, that was what was happening in Mbekweni.

MS GOBODO: So this POQO organization - how was it active at the time.  Where exactly was it very active?

GQIBILE HANS: It was active at the place called Emma  [indistinct]

MS GOBODO: Now I want to again have a clear picture.  I want to know where was Gqibile living at the time?

GQIBILE HANS: He was living Langa Bowhja.

MS GOBODO: Did he have any assosiation with some people in Langa Bowhja and Mbekweni?

GQIBILE HANS: As - community members were working together struggling for freedom and we used to get some work, but we would be told that this work would no suit you because you happened not to be the right person.  And this work would be given to a white person.

MS GOBODO: So when Gqibile was arrested it was during that time?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes

MS GOBODO: Now, could you explain what happened after he was arrested?

GQIBILE HANS: It went on - they were in jail for quite some time and many things happened.  Some people in town was shot and Gqibile was arrested in September and people went in town - they marched to town.

MS GOBODO: Did the people kill any white man during that time?

GQIBILE HANS: Several events occurred but we did not witness all those - those were just roomers.  I was working at Woollens at the time and I could hear the shooting sounds.

MS GOBODO: Now lets go back to Gqibile  once more.  You told us that he was arrested because he was a member of the POQO organization.  What was the charge that was laid for his arrest?

GQIBILE HANS: In Supreme - in the Supreme Court after three years in jail ...[intervention]

MS GOBODO: Just tell us why they were given three years sentence?

GQIBILE HANS: In 1961 they were - they were detained for more than a year in jail and sentenced to 3 years imprisonment after which they again appeared in - before the Supreme Court and then sent to Robben Island.

MS GOBODO: Could I again refer to your statement and say you say your brothers trial lasted for two years.  Were you going to court.

GQIBILE HANS: Not all the time.

MS GOBODO: What were the main issues that were mentioned during the court hearings?

GQIBILE HANS: They wanted to know what was their aim for wanting to overthrow the Government and so they were sentenced for that according to particular laws of the time.

MS GOBODO: And I just wanted a clear picture because our investigators could not get the files on these trials.  So it would help us it we were to hear from you what were the actual issues that were mentioned there in court.

GQIBILE HANS: So he was sentenced and sent to Robben Island for three years and transferred to Victor Verster.

MS GOBODO: Now could you explain to us why was it that after three years he was later transferred to Victor Verster?

GQIBILE HANS: Whilst they were in Robben Island one of them - a accused - who had been sentenced was made a state witness and was taken out of jail.  And he was taken to some other place and they became suspicious.

MS GOBODO: So instead of them being taken out they were transferred to another jail?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, they were sentenced once more.

MS GOBODO: Was there another court case?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, the other court case - the other allegation was that they wanted to overthrow the Government.  That is the reason therefore - why they had to be hanged.  And therefore they were either told that they were going to be in jail for life or they were going to be hanged because of their attempt to overthrow the Government.  So Gqibile said that was all right referring to the judge that whatever his dogs had said to him he should take and consider and do as they have told him.

MS GOBODO: Do you still remember the name of the presiding judge?

GQIBILE HANS: No

MS GOBODO: Which Supreme Court was this - were about?

GQIBILE HANS: It was in Cape Town Supreme Court but I don't remember the name of the judge.

MS GOBODO: In your statement you have referred that this - he sentenced in 1967.  What was happening in the previous years from 1963?  Do you understand what I'm talking about?  So you say in 1966 they were transferred to Victor Verster.  Were your parents still alive at the time?

GQIBILE HANS: Yes, my mother was still alive and she sustained a stroke from that and she did not enjoy good health.

MS GOBODO: How old was she at the time?

GQIBILE HANS: She was quite old.

MS GOBODO: And your father?

GQIBILE HANS: No, she died whilst my brother was in jail.

MS GOBODO: How many were you at the time in your family?

GQIBILE HANS: There were eleven of us.

MS GOBODO: Were you males or females?

GQIBILE HANS: There was seven males and the others were females.