Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

STANLEY GQIBA: In this instance I am talking about the information to the effect that they were continuing about the activities on which they were warned about passing information on to members of the police, and those who were killing the community, the SPUs' we used to refer to them as MSPU.  They were the self defence unit of IFP residing at the hostel.  They would come to the township and shoot people, using vehicles.  I can quote a number of people who were killed. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You are deviating from, you are deviating from the ambit of the question.  Did you, in this case, know about whether the women concerned continued with the activities for which they had been warned by the community, which activity you described as having passed information to the police?  I'm talking about the 15th of August.

STANLEY GQIBA: I have no knowledge in that regard.  They are the ones who are in a position to say because they were close to these people, especially Abraham Mkhwanazi.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible) in fact correct, isn't it, Mr Gqiba, that you didn't even know who they were talking about on that day when you spoke to them?

STANLEY GQIBA: Would you please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Is it not in fact correct that on that day when you spoke to these two comrades of yours, you didn't know who these people were who they had captured?  You had no idea who they were.

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I did not know.  Not even the time during which they were captured.  I only knew the following day what their identities were.

MR LAX: Continue please.

MS MOLOISANE: Just before they left Hollywood Night Club is there any other thing that you told them as they were leaving, concerning the operation that they wanted to carry out?

STANLEY GQIBA: I was not in the nature of issuing instructions to members of the SDU's.  It was for the first time that they came to me with such a request, so I did not say anything to them.  I did not tell them anything.  They would not have taken my instructions above those of their commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you just put it to him what is alleged to have been said by him?  That is categorically by Mr Radebe, about him having to do a clean job so that he cannot be traced.

MS MOLOISANE: Now Mr Radebe testified to the effect that you told them that they should do a clean job.  Do you have any comment thereon?  And that they should make sure that they are not traced.  Do you recall saying that to them?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I said that, it was upon me to say that.  There was no way they could have done a thing without being arrested.  I had heard about that and I requested that they do a clean job because we didn't want to be arrested.  My understanding was that what they were doing was part of defending the community.  Yes I requested them, and appealed to them to make sure that they do a clean job.

MS MOLOISANE: So that is your evidence?  That you in fact, indeed, issued that statement?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you, did they specify what operation precisely were they going to carry out, that is regarding their captives?

STANLEY GQIBA: At that time we used to have a certain language.  We used to refer to informers as Imidwembe.  That is when it came to me as to who these people were.  I learned that Imidwembe were captured, and I then knew that there were our enemies.  These are people who are making our lives difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: The question put to you Mr Gqiba is a very simply and straightforward question.  Did Mr Radebe or Mr Mkhwanazi specify to you what they intended to do to their captives?  That is the question, and the response that you have now given to us does not address the question put to you.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

STANLEY GQIBA: It was known ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to listen to hearsay evidence.  You are here to give us facts about that which you know in relation to this incident.  I suppose that was explained to you quite precisely by Ms Moloisane.  We do not have time to waste.  We don't want to hear any hearsay evidence.  We want to have evidence that is within your personal knowledge.  So don't tell us about what was known.  Tell us about what happened on this particular day.  That is the 15th of August.  Did they specify what they intended to do to their captives, yes or no?.  If yes, what did they say?

STANLEY GQIBA: They did not give me any explanation.
...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that although your, although your microphone was not on, the translator was able to pick up what you were saying.  There is something wrong with the lines because your microphone is on.

STANLEY GQIBA: It was known that when they want ammunition obviously the captured were going to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, I want you to confine yourself to what is being put to you.  I thought you had concluded your response to the question that was put by Ms Moloisane, whether they did specify what they intended to do to their captives.  I thought you said they didn't say anything to you.

STANLEY GQIBA: They did not tell me what they were going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: But by virtue of your position as chairperson and the language that you used that is ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Are you not leading this man on?  Are you not leading him?  Are you not leading him?  You're telling him what the answer to your question is the way you're putting it.  Do you know what a leading question is?

CHAIRPERSON: Kindly rephrase your question Ms Moloisane, so that it does not suggest to the witness what answer he should give.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.  Now you said when they asked you for ammunition it was known what would happen to the captives.  Just clarify that point.  Did you personally know what they were going to do with their captives, or didn't you?

CHAIRPERSON: How could he, when he has just responded to your question by saying they didn't say anything to him?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct, he says ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not actually wanting him to speculate?

MS MOLOISANE: Then I'll leave it there Madam Chair.  Let me leave it there Madam Chair.  Now, do you know how your structures, your SDU structures, operated within the township, Sebokeng township?

STANLEY GQIBA: It would be difficult to explain the operations of the structures, because usually these structures were operating according to blocks with commanders.  We as people who were involved in politics were not so much part of the SDU's.

MS MOLOISANE: Were these SDU's at Sebokeng not aligned, or not attached, to the ANC itself?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, they were, but there were times where certain things would happen without involving the organisation.  I'm talking her about decisions that would be taken by the SDU's and only inform the organisation about the decision at a later stage.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know a person by the name of Bonga Khumalo?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I know him.

MS MOLOISANE: What portfolio did he hold?

STANLEY GQIBA: He was secretary or the political affairs within the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, I think your question was a little more elastic.  You didn't confine it in terms of months and years.  Won't you just find out what portfolio he held ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: by August 1993.

MS MOLOISANE: I will do so Madam Chair.  During August 1993, what portfolio did Bonga Khumalo hold within the organisation itself, and within the SDU structures?

STANLEY GQIBA: I would not say what position he held within the SDU, but at least we as the organisation had deployed him as a repatriated MK from exile, so that the entire SDU's should fall under his control.  We used to consult with him quite a lot pertaining to the SDU's.