Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR MOERANE: Yes, and at the time of the incident in 1988, what was your rank?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: On the 12th of June 1988, I was a Lieutenant.

MR MOERANE: I see, so you were an Officer?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is right, a Commissioned Officer.

MR MOERANE: Commissioned Officer?   Did you discuss the statement that you deposed to, the one on the 8th of June 1989, with Brigadier Van Wyk?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I believe that that would be the case Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Yes, because you say that certain things were included in that statement to fit into the version that was going to be placed before the inquest?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I accepted it as such.

MR MOERANE: Well, what gave you that impression?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Because those were not the facts as I recalled them regarding that which took place on the night of the 12th of June.

MR MOERANE: What I am trying to ascertain from you, Mr Rorich is whether you raised this with Brigadier Van Wyk and said "this is not as I remember it?"

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I believe that we discussed this with each other.

MR MOERANE: And well, he told you that it has to fit with the version?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is why I signed this document.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Were you aware that Brigadier Van Wyk had succeeded Warrant Officer Pienaar as the Investigating Officer of the two incidents, the one of the 8th and the one of the 12th?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I understood that later when he took the statement.

MR MOERANE: You see the first inquest, the one into the death of the people who were killed on the 8th of June 1988, had received quite wide publicity, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct yes.

MR MOERANE: You must have realised that it was somehow linked to the second event, in the sense that the second inquest was pending at the time?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct, because I was not involved with the matter regarding the first incident or the inquest for the first incident because I was already at Witbank.

MR MOERANE: What I am trying to get at Mr Rorich is that it must have been known to the police in the Eastern Transvaal that one inquest is proceeding and as soon as that one is disposed of, the other one relating to the 12th of June, will start?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Well Mr Chairperson, I feel that my personal opinion of that which has been put to me, is the fact that every incident would be registered for a post mortem inquest and it would be investigated separately from every other incident so I don't really understand what you say when you say that the one had to be finished and the next would follow.

MR MOERANE: Well, were you not aware of the arrangement that it was intended that the first inquest be disposed of first, particularly because to a large extent it involved more or less the same people as in the second one?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, I wasn't aware of that.  That actually had nothing to do with my office.   My entire involvement was with regard to the second incident, where I provided the bus and where I performed my share and from there I went back, and that was the end of the story.

MR MOERANE: Did you attend a scene whereby the events of the 12th were reconstructed?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct, I was present.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and that occurred on the 24th of May 1989, about two weeks before you signed your statement, can I refer to your statement, page 52, paragraph 7.

CHAIRPERSON: It is paragraph, yes, 7.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, as I have written it here, correct.

MR MOERANE: And there you must have met the people who were involved in the first incident?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I am not certain who the persons were until I got to these proceedings, I was not aware of who the persons were that were involved in the first incident because I wasn't present during the first incident.   The reconstruction in which I was involved, was the reconstruction of the kombi and not of the Toyota or the Corolla or whatever the vehicle was which was used during the first incident.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to this reconstruction at the scene, were there people there besides those who were conducting the reconstruction, were there people showing out spots, etc, who weren't involved in the second incident, the one involving your kombi?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: The second incident, Chairperson, was the incident of the kombi during which I was present, and our people were there, not all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there people there that were not involved in that incident, who may have been involved in the first incident?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, that I won't be able to say but what I can say is that C1, Colonel De Kock's people were not present during that reconstruction.  There were other policemen who were placed there, simply to sort out aerial photo's and so forth at the scene, more or less the way we could remember who stood next to who.

MR MALAN: And you do not know about any reconstruction of the first incident, you were not present?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, I was not present at all.

MR MOERANE: But is it correct that at the reconstruction that you attended the following people were there, Mr Hayes?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Mr Hayes?  Yes, he was there.  If I can recall it correctly.

MR MOERANE: Yes, Mr Barnard?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I think so, yes.

MR MOERANE: Mr Theron?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Theron was there, yes.

MR MOERANE: Mr Pienaar?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Pienaar was there, Van Zweel was there.

MR MOERANE: And Van Zweel?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, and Deetlefs.

MR MOERANE: And Deetlefs.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: If I recall correctly Chairperson, then that is so.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and as you correctly say the people from Vlakplaas were not there?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: On that occasion, was there any discussion about the first incident?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No Chairperson, it had nothing to do with that construction.   I cannot recall that anything about that was said.

MR MOERANE: But you knew that the first incident had occurred at the very same place?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No Chairperson, I only came to hear of that during these proceedings.

MR MOERANE: You mean for the passed nine years you didn't know that the incident in which you were involved happened at exactly the same place where the incident of four days before that had occurred?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, let us just get something straight here.  I think what Mr Moerane is asking me is whether I didn't know exactly where the previous incident had taken place, I knew that it was on the same road, but I didn't know that it was the same place, I only came to know of that during Mr De Kock's evidence here.

MR MOERANE: In other words the issue didn't arise at all at that reconstruction on the 24th of May?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, not as far as I can recall.

MR MOERANE: When this incident occurred on the 12th of June, for how long had you been a member of the South African Police Force?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: My police career began on the 24th of February 1964.  My career in the Security Branch began at Ermelo on the 9th of January 1973.

MR MOERANE: 1973?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And from 1973 u p to about 1984, you were involved in arrests of people who were infiltrating into the country, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And those that were arrested, were charged?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And most of them were convicted?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.