Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-21

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: After Bongani was shot, David took him and he threw him across the road, on the other side of the fence.  He then went to his car, we went by this car to the Athlone police station where other police were waiting for us.  When we arrived there, they asked us where we were and then David, the askari, said:  "Here is Bongani.  He's in the car."  They were all happy and they went to Bongani and they affected his injured leg and they assaulted him and they went with him to Culemborg and then they interrogated him.  I went with Yengeni to the other office.

MR RHEEDER: It has now been translated that they affected his leg, it is correct that he was shot in the leg?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RHEEDER: When you say, what did they do to his leg at the time, at Athlone Police Station?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: The leg that was shot was also assaulted there.

MR RHEEDER: Could you see that Mr Jonas...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Ms Interpreter, I think the applicant said ..., meaning that he twisted the leg.

INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.

MR RHEEDER: Thank you, Honourable Committee member.  So, and who did this?  Who twisted Mr Bongani Jonas's sore leg?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: There were a lot of people there.  Mr Benzine was also there.  He was also twisting his leg.  Each and every person wanted to hold something to Mr Jonas, so that he can feel pain.

MR RHEEDER: You said that you went back to Athlone Police Station and there were policemen waiting for you.  Were these the policemen, the Commanding Officers and the other Security Branch policemen and the askaris, which would have followed you to the meeting place?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That is correct.

MR RHEEDER: And after Athlone police station, Mr Jonas was taken to Culemborg.  Did you see what they did to him at Culemborg, at your Headquarters?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: When they were taking him out of the car, when we were going inside, they were kicking him in this leg and they would hold this leg and kick this leg when we were going to Culemborg.

MR RHEEDER: Whilst, you also testified and said that you were at the Security Branch from 1985 to 1992.  You also said that your main duties consisted of taking care of the Section 29 detainees.  Can you maybe explain that a bit more?  What were you doing at the Security Branch?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: At the Security Branch, we as the police, were also oppressed.  We would be given duties as security people because if a person would be tortured, he would be handed over to us.  We would take that person to the doctor and then we would give them food and clothes that they needed, etc.  Those were the duties of the black officers.

MR RHEEDER: How many black officers were there, or policemen?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Plus minus 7.

MR RHEEDER: And all of them had these duties?  Those were your and the other 6/7, those were your main duties?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RHEEDER: It's also correct that you acted as interpreters?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That is correct.

MR RHEEDER: The David that you mentioned, you also mentioned whilst you were testifying that you're not able to recall his surname, were you able up until today to remember what his surname is or was?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I don't remember because the identity of the askaris was hidden from us.  We didn't have the information about them as black members of the Security Branch.

MR RHEEDER: During your testimony, you also mentioned that David at some stage, whilst you were driving to the meeting place, requested from, or when you saw the Mercedes Benz approaching from the opposite direction, David asked Mr Yengeni if that is Mr Bongani Jonas.  Did you have a description of his motor vehicle at that stage?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: The askaris knew, as they were also trained, they knew Bongani as they were also trained.

MR RHEEDER: At the time when you, or the time period that you acted as a policeman at the Security Branch, did you see any other people being tortured?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes a lot of people.  One would try to see what was happening but this whole process was hidden from us.

MR RHEEDER: Can you maybe remember some of the people that you saw that were tortured?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rheeder, is that going to assist us?

MR RHEEDER: Just general - I'll leave it at that, Honourable Chairperson, it's not ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RHEEDER: Is there anything that you would like to add at this stage, Mr Siyali?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes.  I am going to be out of context a little bit.  I want to say thank you to Bongani and I am so glad that I never triggered the bullet.  I'm here because I'm hurt.  I want to say thank you to Mr Yengeni because during those times of the askaris, it was very difficult for us because even if you would try to escape there, it wouldn't be easy for us to do anything.  Thank you.

MR RHEEDER: No further evidence at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RHEEDER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Rheeder.  Mr Williams, have you got any questions?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLIAMS: Good morning Mr Siyali.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Good morning, Sir.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Siyali, for which specific acts are you applying for amnesty?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Pointing Bongani with a firearm and shooting at Bongani and during the shooting, I was also present.

MR WILLIAMS: Now on page 2 of the bundle, you state that you are applying for
"any acts, offence or omission during my time in the Security Police in Cape Town from 1985 to 1992."
You obviously know that you cannot apply for amnesty for a particular incident without disclosing the incident, is that correct?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell this Committee, why do you only remember one or two human rights violations that you were involved in over a period of seven to eight years at the Security Branch?   Are these the only incidents that you were involved in?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, we would not be taken with on trips, that is the only incident that I'm involved in.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ever torture people or did you ever kill people?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, not at all.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you've stated to the Committee just now that you acted as interpreters.  Now surely if you act as an interpreter, you must be at the scene where things are happening, is that correct?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And you've also stated that you've witnessed tortures, but my question to you is did you ever participate in any of these tortures?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you've just stated to the Committee that you are applying for amnesty for pointing a firearm and shooting etc.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it an offence to point a firearm or to shoot a person - would you consider it an offence to point a firearm or to shoot a person under the conditions under which you did?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, it is an offence to point a person with a firearm.

MR WILLIAMS: Why do you say that?  I'm talking about the specific conditions under which that act was committed by yourself.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, it is an offence under any circumstances.  It is always an offence to point a person with a gun.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it an offence for a policeman if he attempts to arrest a person in a bona fide manner, to point a firearm or if you want to apprehend a suspect, is it an offence to point a firearm at that person?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, it is an offence because I shot at the person.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, Mr Siyali, I will return to that later.  Now it seems from your statement that you had a meeting at Milnerton police station and that you were briefed there.  Can you inform the Committee, who is the person who did the actual briefing?