Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR BERGER: You also wouldn't be able to explain or comment on the evidence of Mr Diaz, you heard me put it earlier this morning whilst you were in here to Mr Stephens, that Mr Diaz says there was a man with an AK47, in fact firing.  In his statement he says: "spraying Shell House", but then in his evidence later, he said: "firing an AK47 into the air", right in front of his shop.

J M S POTGIETER: No I didn't see somebody like that.

MR BERGER: He was there, you ought to have seen him.

J M S POTGIETER: If he had been there we would have seen him, we were in the street, but I didn't see that person.

MR BERGER: You also never saw any marcher shooting towards Shell House at any stage?

J M S POTGIETER: No, I saw no shots being fired from that side.

MR BERGER: We know that shots were in fact fired at Shell House, but you didn't see that?

J M S POTGIETER: I didn't hear or see them.

MR BERGER: You had received no specific instructions when you arrived at Shell House other - from Major Nel, other than to do general patrols around Shell House?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were quite worried were you not, that you as Policemen were under-staffed, should any trouble break out at Shell House?

J M S POTGIETER: At that stage we didn't think that any difficulties or problems would arise.

MR BERGER: During the evidence at the inquest it was either Sergeant Gollach or Sergeant Scheepers who said that - I asked them "were you not afraid what should you do if trouble broke out", and the one of them's evidence was "yes I was afraid, in fact I asked Sergeant Potgieter what we should do and I discussed it with him, and he also didn't know, he was also afraid".

J M S POTGIETER: At that stage I wasn't a Sergeant.

MR BERGER: Well he spoke about Potgieter.

J M S POTGIETER: No, I can't remember anything like that.

MR BERGER: The Policeman in charge was Major Els, is that correct?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at the critical time of the shooting he was nowhere to be found, is that also correct?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And I see a smile coming onto your lips because you know what the next question is, isn't it correct that you pulled him out from under a car, he was hiding under a car during the shooting?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: He had been - just before he took cover under a car, he had been at the corner of Plein and Klein Streets, am I right?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct, that's where the car was.

MR BERGER: And that's where you found him taking cover?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now the ANC guards who came to the corner of King George and Plein Street, came in a group - there were a number of them who came to the corner, is that correct?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee today that they were armed with handguns and an AK47?

J M S POTGIETER: In as far as I know.

MR BERGER: Those would be 9mm handguns and one AK47?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, one could call them handguns, 9mm 762's as well as AK's.

MR BERGER: So when you say in paragraph 5 of your statement at page - of your affidavit at page 14, that:  "They had shotguns and 9mm pistols", that's incorrect?

J M S POTGIETER: I can't remember everything, but I know about the pistols and the AK, a man was lying there and shooting.

MR BERGER: This evidence of an ANC guard pointing a gun at you and saying that he would shoot at you, that's not correct is it Sergeant Potgieter?

J M S POTGIETER: It is correct.

MR BERGER: You made this up after the event didn't you?

J M S POTGIETER: Negative.

MR BERGER: Other than the shots that you've testified to about down at Wanderers Street and the one shot behind you, there were no other shots prior to the actual shooting incident, you've already said that to the Committee.  You never heard any shots in De Villiers Street shortly before the main shooting?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: You never heard any shots coming from the direction of Park Station shortly before the main shooting?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And at that time you were stationed at the corner of Plein and King George?

J M S POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You'll recall Sergeant Potgieter, that when you gave evidence in the inquest we did an exercise in Court and we - to get an approximation of how long the shooting lasted?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: And we agreed that it was approximately 12 seconds?

J M S POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: From the time that the marchers were shot at until the shooting ended, 12 seconds.

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, approximately that long.

MR BERGER: And at no stage did you hear any warning shots being fired?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And also at no stage did you witness any shots being fired into the overhanging ceiling at the corner of Plein and King George?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: You see, because we know from the ballistic evidence that shots were fired into that overhanging ceiling, and we know specifically that two 9mm shots were fired, to use the words of the expert "directly upon into the overhanging ceiling at the corner of King George and Plein", you never witnessed that?

J M S POTGIETER: No, I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: It's your evidence that there was an initial shot from amongst the group of ANC guards.

J M S POTGIETER: There was the one shot, and then a millisecond later the gross shooting took place.

MR BERGER: You never saw a man in green running across the road and firing shots down the western pavement of King George Street?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Now you saw Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen moving down - or north up King George Street to the intersection to try and prevent the marchers from coming down?

J M S POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You saw that they had their hands open and they were clearly indicating to the marchers "don't come down this way"?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You saw that they were completely ignored by the marchers and your words were "pushed out of the way"?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know that Sergeant van Greenen received an injury in that process?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, we found that out subsequently.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that prior to the main shooting incident you thought that the Police needed reinforcements?

J M S POTGIETER: There was a large group of people, yes.  One would have expected or needed greater assistance.

MR BERGER: From where did the marchers come?

J M S POTGIETER: In King George from Noord Street in a norther direction.

MR BERGER: From north to south down King George?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw any marchers coming from De Villiers, from west to east towards King George Street?

J M S POTGIETER: No I didn't see anything like that.

MR BERGER: You'll have to speak up.

J M S POTGIETER: No I didn't see such people.

MR BERGER: I take it that you were particularly concerned to see what was happening in the intersection when Van Reenen and Van Greenen went up to stop the marchers?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at no stage, is it correct, did you see a tall, thin white man with long hair also attempting to stop the marchers from proceeding down towards Plein Street?

J M S POTGIETER: No I didn't see such a man.

MR BERGER: Isn't it possible Sergeant Potgieter, that you were not observing the marchers at all relevant times?

J M S POTGIETER: No, I did observe from time to time.

MR BERGER: You see, because there's no doubt that that man, his name is Mr von Eggedy, that that man was in the intersection at the critical time.

J M S POTGIETER: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: And therefore I put it to you that you were not observing the marchers at the critical time.

J M S POTGIETER: I did.