Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-03

MR POTGIETER:  Now if one looks at the circumstances, you see it was at night this thing took place.  You weren't really in a position to say whether this child had been stoning your house.

WITNESS:  Yes I can actually confirm it because there was moonlight.  My wife and I came back from church, we went into our house, they started throwing stones, I went outside and the one I shot was wearing a white shirt.  I could identify him by his white shirt.  The other one, the other boy, one of the other three was wearing a straw hat and this straw hat was left behind at the scene and Warrant Officer Sybrand de Waal from  ... [indistinct]  came and picked up the hat so I am quite sure that the deceased was involved in the stoning at my house.

MR POTGIETER:  If I think about these circumstances on that day, there must be a lot of doubt.  Was there ever a risk that you would have been charged?  How did the police handle this matter?

WITNESS:  That is what I would like to tell you about.  I was never taken to court.  I just heard from Sybrand de Waal that there had been an inquest.  At that stage I was new in the police force.  I didn't know exactly what an inquest was but he told me that the Attorney General declined to prosecute me and that was the end of the matter.  So he told me, he said to me don't worry, the case has been finalised, it's all over.

MR POTGIETER:  Now were, there had been an inquest, you will know from your experience as a policeman that when a person dies in unnatural circumstances like here, an inquest must be held so a decision can be taken as to what should happen.  So an inquest had to be held in connection with this incident.  Are you saying however that you never testified in a court?

WITNESS:  Not once.

MR POTGIETER:  So this case was decided without your version having been heard and you were actually the only person who could have explained what had happened but they didn't even listen to your evidence?

WITNESS:  No.  No, they just took my statement, Sybrand de Waal took my statement and the next day was New Year, New Year's day and the local fingerprint office people came to take photographs of my house and then they took my statement.  They took my firearm.  My firearm was sent away for ballistic tests and Sybrand de Waal then said to them, give me a weapon immediately and I was given a brand new weapon.  On that very same day I was given a brand new weapon.  They took a statement from me and if I didn't go to Warrant Officer de Waal to ask him what progress had been made in the case, I wouldn't have heard anything.  He then said to me no the case had been finalised a long time ago, it was an inquest.

MR POTGIETER:  Now as I mentioned to you, we heard evidence yesterday, it was Ms Xjoliswa Lumkwana's evidence ... end of Tape side A ... and that according to what people told her, you were the person responsible for the shooting.

WITNESS:  Yes I shot, I did shoot, I admit that.

MR POTGIETER:  That person also died, according to Ms Lumkwana's evidence.  Is that now Mata Jonga?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Now what happened there, because Ms Lumkwana was not present at the scene so she couldn't really explain to us what happened.  Maybe you can tell us.

WITNESS:  Yes well you see as I have just said in my statement, my wife and I and my children were walking from church, we were on our way home and when we arrived home and we were in our home and preparing to go to bed ... [intervention]

MR POTGIETER:  I am sorry, I have to interrupt you here.  I think I am not understanding it properly, is Mbulelo Jonga is the person you have just referred to, the person wearing the white shirt, Mata?

WITNESS:  Yes, Jonga.

MR POTGIETER:  Right I understand now.  So that is the same incident?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.  So Ms Lumkwana is also now able to know what the circumstances were regarding that incident.

MR POTGIETER:  Mr Links perhaps just in conclusion, you have thrown quite a bit of light on a situation which we came across in Upington where our investigating team were told when they went to the Upington police station to look at the records and documents, they were told that the documents relating to the time between 1985 and 1992 had been destroyed.  Now you have thrown quite a bit of light on that aspect.  You are now in the employ of the police.

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Do you have any fears or problems, any concerns regarding the fact that you have now testified as you have done today?

WITNESS:  Well advocate, we're here, sitting here today at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  I can't come here and lie.  Here I must speak the truth.  If they want to discharge me from their service that's their problem.  If, then I will talk about it and I will say what I know.  Perhaps I will lose my job, I don't know.  There is something in the police, they call it, you are systematically, there is a SAP incident report which has to be written on a monthly basis - are you reliable etc. do you do your job well - now they might want to grind me in these incident reports.  They might give me bad reports.  They might not like me now very much because of what I have just said because this hall is full of policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Order!  I told you at the beginning that we have a particular way of behaving and I allow you to clap at certain times but we have to be careful that we don't let this degenerate even when you are feeling very strongly, you have to try to restrain yourselves.  This is not a concert or a rally.  Please.

MR POTGIETER: Mr Links the persons that you mentioned who came to your house after the shooting - Inspector Swanepoel, you mentioned a lot of names, were they all policemen?

WITNESS:  Inspector Swanepoel is still in the police force here in Upington.  Fanie Burger has left the police force.  Captain Tarrie Smit, he is at Kanon Island about six or seven kilometres from here.

MR POTGIETER:  And Captain Botha?

WITNESS:  Captain Botha has died.

MR POTGIETER:  Is there anything else you would like to add to your evidence?

WITNESS:  Yes.  This afternoon I would like to say to the Truth Commission, to the members of the public and to the family of the victim, I would like to apologise.  The community has accepted me but I feel that I must say it personally here in public.  That's all.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Links.  Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  This is not the first time that we have been made aware of the terrible situation experienced by municipal policemen and people referred to as kitskonstabels stuck between the difficulties of their own communities and between the strong arm of the law.  It is my first experience of having somebody testify before us and make a public apology and I would like to thank you for that.  I would also like to ask you just for clarity sake, you said that the shredding of documents which you witnessed recently, took place three weeks before you made your statement to us.  I just want to know whether that statement was made now this week or whether it was made when our statement takers were in this area a week or so ago, just so we get the timing right?

WITNESS:  That's correct.  I gave my statement in the time that the investigating team were here.  Mark and Milanie, I gave my statement when they were here, yes.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.