Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

MR NKGWEDI: Grootvlei, Goeiemoed, Kroonstad and Leeukop prisons.  Some of the parents are still under the impression that their children have escaped from prison.  For an example Tokyo Sexwale's next of kin have been shot by some of the farmers, they were under the impression that the relatives escaped, however their remains were exhumed from farmer's farm here in the Free State.  However, we may not forget that the land is ours despite all the explosions that you can devise.  Even if I can die a poor man, I do not have any worry because this is the torture that we received at the hands at the White man even if my children would die, I would not mind because I know we are slaves, slaves of the Boers for more than 40 years.  Since 1652, April when they settled or set foot here they killed our Commanders and stated that it was a car accident, they shot our Commanders in Pretoria.

MS THABET: Mr Chairman, can I say something?  I am not sure what is the relevance of what the applicant is saying to his application and can I ask a question?  Mr Nkgwedi, why did you apply for amnesty?

MR NKGWEDI: Are you referring to my application for amnesty?  Would you repeat your question please?

MS THABET: Why did you apply for amnesty?

MR NKGWEDI: The crux of the matter is not that I made an amnesty application, the objective here is to publicise throughout the world so that Africans must know that we had a role to play to fight the oppression of the White man, so that we liberate other Africans from apartheid.  It is not that Nkgwedi's objective was to expose or disclose of the corruption done by the Boers, nothing will remain a secret.  Everything will come out in the open, even if you do a thing alone, it does come out in the open.  Whilst you were still punishing us, did you know that the TRC would be established?

MS THABET: Mr Nkgwedi.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Nkgwedi, with due respect sir, what you are saying now has no relevance on your application sir.  We still have Mr Magoda who is to testify as well.

MR NKGWEDI: All right.

ADV MTHEMBU: If you have nothing more to say which is relevant to your application, sir, I would ask Mr Chairman to excuse you, if there are no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You may be excused.

ADV MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.    Mr Chairman, I will call Mr Magoda.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you call Mr Magoda.  Mr Nkgwedi, I, if you an just listen to what I am about to tell you now, the interpretation will come through.  If there are other things which are worrying to you, with regard to the maltreatment of people in prison or in any way that you feel there had been some gross violations of human rights by whoever, you can let us know and tell us whether you will be keen to make statements so that we should arrange that members of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission can come and visit you in prison, consult with you, take down all those complaints and then investigate them properly.  Do you want us to do that?

MR NKGWEDI: You have pleased me by saying that.  I am relieved now, I will do so.  I will expect you.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, we will try to make that kind of arrangements, thank you.

ADV MTHEMBU: I thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Is there someone here from the prison?  Is there someone here from the prison?  Do these, what time do you have to return these prisoners.  "Daar is geen tyd"?

MR MAGODA: (sworn states)

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Magoda, is it true that you were arrested at house number 1684 K Section?

MR MAGODA: No, I was not arrested in Section K, I was arrested at block M.

ADV MTHEMBU: Okay, now I read to you paragraph 21, page 5 of a statement made by Mr De la Rey.  It reads as follows: "At 12h35 I visited the accused 4's home at 1684 K, due to information provided by himself.  He handed the following to me.  One yellow plastic bag containing one Pentax camera, one grey bag containing an injector, one bag for glasses containing a Tedelex calculator, three shaving devices Braun, Hitachi and Remington, one black container containing eight pens.  On one of these pens the letters RJJF appeared.  The mentioned above was in the bedroom of accused 4.  Two plastic bank bags containing old and foreign coins (hidden in the flower pot in the sitting room), one tin of mussels and one tin of oysters in the kitchen cupboard.  One pair of brown mens' shoes or tackies with blood on the tackies, one blue overall.  There were white gloves in the back pocket of the overall.  Mr Magoda, do you have any comment to make regarding this statement made by Mr De la Rey?

MR MAGODA: I would say unfortunately it is as  you were saying that there was a camera and unfortunately I did not look what was inside that bag because I was given it by Mr Leeuw.  As  you have listen overall and with the plastic tin and the tackies and two plastic bags containing coins, those are the things I know.  Those plastics were covered, I gave them that way, I gave them to the police in that way, I didn't look what was inside those bags.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now do you have anything to say about the one tin of mussels and one tin of oysters?

MR MAGODA: With regards to this tin of mussels, I cannot comment that I have any knowledge of such articles.  I know of these things that I have told you about.  I know about the yellow plastic that was - and the two plastic that contained the coins which were in the lounge.  Others that he says that were groceries, I know nothing of because I am not a person who usually scouts around for groceries in the house.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Magoda, I want to know from you if the cans of oysters and mussels, were they found in one of your kitchen racks or not?

MR MAGODA: I saw the police with all these articles.  There were many policemen in the house, three were in the bedroom, others were in the lounge, others were in the kitchen.  They didn't show me these articles that they are referring to today that they found in the kitchen.

ADV MTHEMBU: The grey pair of tackies with blood on them, do you know those tackies.  Mr Magoda, can you explain the tackies first?

MR MAGODA: Those belonged to me, the overall and the running shoes, which were stained with blood.

ADV MTHEMBU: And the white glove that was found in one of the back pockets of the overall?

MR MAGODA: Yes, they were mine, I used them.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Magoda, do you have anything further to add to your submission?

MR MAGODA: Briefly I would say the police at that time as I, we hear from the statement, they are supposed to say, tell such things, they worked in close harmony with the previous regime which oppressed us.  They were in trouble through their acts they committed, that is as far as I would go.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now, why were these yellow plastic bag, why did Mr Leeuw give it to you and the two bank plastic bags containing those coins?

MR MAGODA: What he said was that he would come to collect this plastic bag, he didn't explain what he would do of this plastic bags.  As Africans of the  PAC we have secrets which must not be public knowledge because others might betray us, that is why he did not explain to me what he will do with all these articles.

ADV MTHEMBU: Is that your evidence sir?  I am saying is that your evidence or your submission?

MR MAGODA: Yes, that is as far as I would go.

ADV MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS THABET: No questions Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know whether you were going to sell these articles or whether you were going to keep them?

MR MAGODA: As they were put there and he said he would come and collect them and keep them, I didn't know what he was going to do with them and when he was going to collect them.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't know for what purpose he would come and collect them?

MR MAGODA: He did not explain whether he would come and collect these articles to sell them or do whatever with them.  As a Commander he knew what he was supposed to say to me and what not to say to me.