Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: Alright, so it's an hotel close to the taxi rank, is that what you're saying?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did she tell you and did you ask her what Nomasonto was doing at this hotel?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She told us that she was there with a baby.  She was waiting for us there for us to fetch the child there at the hotel.

MR VISSER: Just staying at the hotel or working there?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She was not working there, she said we'll find her there.

MR VISSER: Any time you arrived, day or night, you will find her there?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.  That's what we were told.  We left because we knew that we would find her there.

MR VISSER: Did you infer from that Nomasonto was living at the hotel?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She was not staying in that hotel, she just said that we'll find her there at the hotel.  This woman told us that Nomasonto was staying at her place in Maseru.

MR VISSER: Why didn't she say:  "Go to Nomasonto's place in Maseru" to pick up the child there?  This is a strange situation, don't you agree?

CHAIRPERSON: It would be difficult for Mr Visser, this is relayed to her.  I think that question would be slightly unfair to her that somebody comes and we should - she should imagine what Nomasonto said to this lady and why she should think that should happen, I think that's unfair.  That's an unfair question, I won't allow that question to this witness.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Anyway, you made no further inquiries from this person, you just accepted at face value what she told you and you went off to this hotel?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: I want you to think back and to tell this Committee when the last time was when you received the four or five letters from Nomasonto which you gave evidence about.  When was the last time that you received a letter from here, can you tell us?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: After the child was brought to us, she never wrote to us.

MR VISSER: When was the last time, can you tell us?  If you can't just say so.  When was the last time that you received an letter from Nomasonto while she was in exile?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I don't remember, I can't.

MR VISSER: Yes.  But am I correct in drawing the inference from your evidence, that she didn't correspond with you regularly, it happened very seldom over the period of time that she left for exile, is that correct?  It was seldom that she corresponded with you.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She was writing to us regularly.

MR VISSER: With all due respect, five letters over many years, what does that signify to you?  That's all on your evidence.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes I think it could be five letters.

MR VISSER: Over many years, you said many years.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, she was writing to us because we used to keep those letters.  We burned those letters after we were being harassed by the police because we realised that they would put us in danger, that's when we burned those letters.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you then concede that when I asked you whether the police were looking for letters?   When I asked you that, why didn't you say:  "Ja, we burned the letters because we were afraid that the police would get hold of them"?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, before the witness answers, I don't know if the question is fair.  The witness doesn't know what the police are looking for and I think that was the gist of her answer.  They came looking for Nomasonto mainly and they searched the house.  She doesn't know what they are looking for.  It's not fair to say:  "Why didn't you tell me that they were looking for letters".

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I asked her specifically whether they were looking for letters, there was no issue about it, no question about it, I asked her specifically that question.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not recall, but I remember, I'm subject to correction, what I remember is that when you said that police were intercepting letters, I said it's unfair, this witness wouldn't know that, but I'm not saying you did not, I'm not staying that, you may restate your question.

MR LAX: Sorry, the other thing she did say in her answer was that they didn't look under beds and cupboards, what have you, they were just looking for her, that's what she said, so it was clear from her evidence that she didn't think they were looking for letters.

MR VISSER: The point I was trying to make and the issue that the whole line of questioning was directed at, was that there was a danger connected to corresponding with a person for whom the police were looking.

MR LAX: Yes, but that was her corresponding with Nomasonto, not Nomasonto corresponding with her.  That was the context within which the letter was asked.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, with great respect, ...(intervention)

MR LAX: I'm busy speaking, please don't interrupt me.  When I'm finished then you can say your point.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just have some order.  Yes, just finish off.

MR LAX: Sorry, my mike just got cut off and I couldn't finish what I was saying.  The point I'm trying to say is that her evidence on this issue was in relation to the searches, then you went on to a question of did she write back to her and she said:  "No, we didn't write back to her because we were afraid of the police", that's where the issue of the fear then arose, so the two weren't said in the same breath, in the same way.  That's why I'm backing up what the Chairperson says.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser rather than talking about this a lot, I would say, let's start, let's have a build-up to that, I think it would do us more good.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm going to make it easier than that, I'm going to leave that because there's enough on record for the point that I've wanted to make.  It's already on record, in my submission, because how a letter written by this witness to Nomasonto could ever have been a danger is something I don't understand.  One would imagine that it is common sense that if the police came into the house and found a letter written by Nomasonto, the very person for whom they were looking, that would have represented the danger, but Chairperson, I'm not going to go on with that and frankly Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions for the witness?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Ma'am where were you born?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I was born in the Free State.

MR MAPOMA: Where, actually?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I don't know, but I was born in the Free State and I grew up in the Transvaal, but I was born here in the Free State.

MR MAPOMA: Where in the Transvaal did you grow up?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: At the farm.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever go to school?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, I used to look after my father's cattle.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  When you left for Lesotho to look for - I mean to fetch the child from Nomasonto, did you return on the same day?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Any re-examination Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, just two questions.

MR MALINDI: Mrs Mashiya, you testified that you knew of the relationship between Nomasonto and Tsietsi.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I did know.

MR MALINDI: Did you know that Tsietsi went into exile?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I knew after that he left for exile after.

MR MALINDI: In relation to Tsietsi leaving for exile, when did Nomasonto leave?  How soon after Tsietsi or how long before Tsietsi, or did they leave at the same time?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Nomasonto left first.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Panel Members, Mr Lax any questions for the witness.