Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: Today we are hearing the applications of Pudumo, Ernest, H L Gqomfa and others and yesterday afternoon we said we would start with Mr Pudumo, if I'm not mistaken Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We would as usual place ourselves on record, those who would be involved in the Pudumo matter.  I am Motata from the Transvaal Provincial Division, chairing these proceedings.  On my right I have Judge de Jager, also from Transvaal Provincial in Gauteng and on my left I have Adv Sandi from East London in the Eastern Cape.  Would the legal representatives also place themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo.  I'm representing the applicant in this matter.  Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear, Ms Mtanga, there's no representative for victims.  Do we have victims here?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the victims were notified and they declared that they're not interested to attend this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, in which language would the applicant testify?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sotho Chairperson.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo is it correct that you were born on the 1st of March 1953?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were born in Lesotho?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo, can you tell the Committee, how far have you gone at school?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Standard 6, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo, can you tell the Committee to which organisation do you belong?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: In 1990.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Exactly where in 1990 did you join PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: In Virginia.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who recruited you into PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It's Sibande.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Msibande or Sibande?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Sibande.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who was Sibande?  What was he in PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I knew him as a member of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did you have a branch in Virginia of PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What activities were you involved in?  What PAC activities were you involved in since your joining of the PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The activities that I associated myself with in the PAC were the orders given to me by my superiors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who were your superiors?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I have mentioned the name of Sibande already.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What orders were he giving you?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: After recruiting me into the PAC, he showed me, he introduced me to Rasta Moloto, that's how I came to 43know Rasta Moloto and together with Sibande, they were known to me as members of the PAC.  In 1991 they arrived at my place, three of them, it was Rasta Moloto, Sibande and Lebohang Mehi.  In other words he was going to introduce the three of them to me and that was the last year of seeing me.  He didn't see me thereafter and the two that were left with me, they informed me about the aspirations of the organisation and what the organisation expected of me.  I also took an oath that I will support the organisation with whatever it needs from me.
	Myself and Rasta Moloto and Lebohang Mehi, on that day Mr Mehi gave orders to Rasta Moloto.  The instructions were that:  "Fulfil the aspirations of the organisation".  All orders were given to Rasta Moloto and he in turn passed them to me.  Lebohang Mehi, we separated with Lebohang Mehi at that stage.  What Rasta Moloto told me was that:  "Man, now you must be aware, we have to join the Task Force".  I tried to ask him what the Task Force was and what was it all about, what its functions were and he reported that the duties of the Task Force is to assist the organisation with whatever it needs and whatever was needed by the military wing of the organisation.  Because I had committed myself I said:  "Very well, I will go ahead with that."

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the Task Force?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: In 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you trained in anything?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who trained you and where?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The person who trained me is Rasta Moloto.  He said:  "I will give you certain training."  It was in Virginia.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At that time, what were you doing yourself before you were recruited to PAC?  What was your occupation?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I left the job in 1990, that was due to the retrenchment.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where were you working?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: In Harmony Mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Pudumo, is it correct that you are a Lesotho citizen?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, I was a Lesotho citizen at that stage.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What do you mean by that?  Does that me now you are no longer a Lesotho citizen?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: From 1990, I was responsible for a house in Virginia, so I was staying there, I was residing there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Responsible for a house in - what does he mean?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: What I'm trying to explain is that from 1990 I was not a resident in Virginia, I owned a house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you pay for the house, or how did you come to own the house?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I paid for the house myself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, my question actually was, what did you pay for the house, how much?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The person who sold the house, sold it for R350.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to follow up what has been asked by the Member of the Committee on the question of the house, according to the Court record is that the house in which you were staying did not belong to you.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It was my house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Let's then proceed.  You were trained in Task Force.  How many were you in your unit of the Task Force?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We were two.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you come to the incident of the 21st of December 1992 and tell the Committee what happened.  Who planned this attack and who came up with this idea and why?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It was in the morning in 1992, Rasta Moloto came to me, he said to me:  "Man, there's an attack that we should carry out.  This attack will take place in Theunissen" and he organised everything and I asked him:  "Seeing that you have already planned the attack, where did you take the order from?  Where did you take this idea from?"  and he said because he had been given orders, he has the responsibility.  We planned that attack, but he was the leader in this whole issue.  It was in 1992 on the 20th when we did the reconnaissance.  It was the two of us.  When we arrived we discovered that the area needed more than two people.  He said he will then look for the other two people and I should organise transport in the meantime.  We went back to Virginia and I looked into the transport issue and he came about with two people.  The names of the two people that were joining were Potsotso and Johannes Leabe.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they - in which organisation did they belong, these two?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I do not know which organisation they belonged to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Did you ask them, or did you ask Rasta about which organisation they belonged to?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I only asked whether these were the people who were going to assist us and he said yes.  The plan was just to get people just to assist us with the execution of the plan, that is why I went on with the arrangements of getting a car.  I went to the taxi rank and I managed to get hold of a private vehicle.  We got into this vehicle and then we left.