Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

MR LAX: This witness you talk about, is that a person who actuallysaw what happened to your son?

WITNESS: I was at work. I just heard that they were together, that is Mzimbiand my son.

MR LAX: How old was your son? When was he born?

WITNESS: When he died hewas 25 years old. He was born in 1968 on the 5th of May.

MR LAX: Thank you. Have you receive any documentation with regard toyour son's death, any death certificate, or do you know of any cases that mighthave happened?

WITNESS: What I got was a death certificate. I do have it. I got it.In 1993, on the 23rd of February, I got a letter which said I must go to court.They also phoned me and asked me whether I had got the letter. My boss releasedme so that I could attend to this matter. I told her that on the 23rd of FebruaryI am supposed to be in court with regard to my son's death. I went to the court.Our names were called, but nothing happened. Even the person who shot my son,that is Ronnie Mudikwe, there's nothing that he said.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... was this?

WITNESS: That was in Heilbron.

MR LAX: Since then have you heard anything more about the case? ---There is nothing I ever heard thereafter. Up til today I know absolutely nothing.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... will look into that and be able to try andget back to you with what actually happened about that case. Chairperson, justfor a moment, with your guidance, should we proceed with the other statementbefore we ask questions, or do you think we should ask questions at this stage?I will just wait for your instructions.

UNKNOWN: I think it would be more helpful to the witnesses to continue and then have the questions afterwards.It's a very painful thing this. And also we might be able to get a little moreinformation and save duplication. Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you. If we could turn to you now, Mrs Tsetsi.If you could tell us firstly about your son, Kipi. How old was he when thisevent happened?

WITNESS: He was 14 years old when this happened. It was 12 o'clockin the afternoon. He was just playing outside. He said he was scared to roamaround the location because the soldiers were... (incomplete - end of Side B,Tape 4) ... the other street. I got a car on that street. I asked that person,the driver, to give me a lift and take me to the hospital. We got to a mainroad, where we met people from the Civic Association. They were coming fromthe court and they were in a kombi. They said to me, "There is my son," andthey told me that my son had been taken to Mapetla. That's another location.They gave me a lift. I thought I was going mad a that time. I didn't know whatwas happened. When we got to Mapetla we found that there were police cars aswell as police Casspirs. They took me there. When we got there they said - theComrades requested the soldiers to disclose the whereabouts of my son. Theysaid they didn't know the whereabouts of my son. Thereafter they said the carhad turned at Izulu Street. By that time we tried to follow it. Then they said,"No, there it is. It's speeding up, it's going towards town." Then they putme again in the kombi, they said, "We must follow these people." We followedthem. All of a sudden they disappeared. Then we rushed off to the hospital.When we got to the hospital, as we were crossing the railway station just approaching the hospital,we saw an ambulance flicking its little red light. When we got to the hospitalI asked the ambulance drivers as to where my son was. I don't know who startedby telling me that my son was in Kroonstad, but there was a group of people.I asked them, "How could my son be in Kroonstad within five minutes?" They toldme to go back home, and I was a little bit mixed up because I didn't know whatwas happening. They took me, they put me into the kombi, they directed me togo home. When I got home I sat there, and my mother asked me where my son was.I told her that they had told me he's in Kroonstad. I sat outside wondering.Now I was totally - I didn't know what to do because I didn't know what washappening. Then my mother said to me I must just wait and see. Nobody showedup except for a young girl whose name was Busisiwe.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... please take your time. (Pause)

WITNESS: These childrencame. They had brought my son's T-shirt. It was soaked with blood. I took theT-shirt and asked, "Where is my son when my T-shirt is like this? How is he?"Then they said a policeman shot him. I took the T-shirt and soaked it in water.I lifted the T-shirt up and I saw quite a number of holes in the T-shirt. ThenI started to wonder how is my child if a T-shirt can be so full of holes. Iwent to sleep. Round about 7 o'clock in the evening I woke up and went to anothermember of the Civic Association. When I got to him I said to Mr Ndio, "Whereis my child?" He told me that we were going to try and hire the car and go toKroonstad. Approximately at 9 o'clock I saw the kombi. They said I mustgo to Kroonstad. I said they must take my sister as well as my other son, because I wasn't able to go. Then they went to Kroonstad.As we were sitting until 3 o'clock, at 3 o'clock they came back. They lookedat me. Each and every one of them just looked at me. Then I asked, "Is he dead?"They said, "Yes." I asked whether he was in Kroonstad. They said no, he wasn'tat Kroonstad, they said he was in Heilbron. I asked them how did they know thathe was in Heilbron. They said the Civic Association members phoned to try andfind out where my son was, so they went to Bloemfontein. They actually threatenedthe police. They told them that, "If we don't get him in Bloemfontein you aregoing to be in trouble." When they got there we didn't know what to do, we juststayed for the whole morning until dawn. I couldn't sleep. I was told to goto the police station to go and report that my child had died or had been killed.I went to the police station. There was a man who was working at the mortuary.He was also expecting me. When I got there they pulled my child's corpse. Istood there in silence and I looked at my son. He had a lot of holes in hisbody. Blood had seeped out of his back. He wasn't even wearing a T-shirt. Thisgentleman asked me whether I was satisfied, I had positively identified my son.I said yes. My sister said she wanted to see if it really was him. Then shewanted to find out about post-mortems, as to where they should be taken fora post-mortem. She was told that they were being taken to Gauteng for a post-mortem.My sister told them that they must know that we are also going to take him toa pathologist, who was going to try and find out the cause of death. They toldus that we would get the corpses on a Thursday. They took the corpses. The corpses came back. We buried them. From there we stayed until1993. That's only then that we were told about our children. They told me thatmy child had died due to loss of blood. That was all they could tell me aboutmy son.

MR LAX: Are you finished, Mama, for now? Can I just confirm somethingwith you? You received a letter to come to court to an inquest hearing. Do youremember that?

WITNESS: Yes, I did get the letter.

MR LAX: Did you actually go to court?

WITNESS: Yes, I did go to court.

MR LAX: What happened there?

WITNESS: When I got to the court we sat there.We were read a Bible, a very big Bible by the Magistrate. From there he toldme that my child had died. He told me that he had lost blood. That's all thathe told me.

MR LAX: Do you remember when - what date that was that you went tocourt by any chance?

WITNESS: It was on the 23rd in 1993.

MR LAX: Thank you. This person that you spoke about as a witness, BusisiweMoloi, is that the Busisiwe you're talking about?

WITNESS: Yes, it is the Busisiwethat I have been talking about, Busisiwe Moloi.

MR LAX: And do you know where we could find her if we wanted to getsome information from her?