Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR HUGO: (Cont)
	Mr Mbane, just before the tea break I asked you about the clothing aspect and I'm not sure now as to what your evidence is.  Initially you couldn't remember that there was an agreement that she would be wearing a specific outfit and then when we had a look at our notes and the Chairman said that he had notes to the effect that you did have an arrangement that she would be wearing a specific outfit, you changed your tune a little bit, are you now sure that there was a specific agreement that she would be wearing a specific outfit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: But I thought you said, you told this Committee that she actually said to you that she would be wearing a floral dress etcetera, and you gave a description as to what she would be wearing.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't remember clearly, I just thought that she might have said that.

MR HUGO: May I ask you, why, if there was an arrangement like that, what was the reason for such an arrangement?  Why did you have to arrange with her to wear a specific outfit when she went to the railway station?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it's a question of arranging for her to wear a specific outfit, but why would it have been necessary for her to inform you what she would have been wearing?

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know.

MR HUGO: You see let me put it to you, I cannot see any reason as to why this was necessary, in the sense that you had meetings with her, you knew exactly what she looked like and you also testified that she was a big woman, so on the probabilities, in my mind there was absolutely no necessity for such an arrangement to be made.  You would have recognised her immediately at the station, is that not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is so.

MR HUGO: Yes.  When you arrived at the station, were you driving the vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I was driving.

MR HUGO: And if I recall your evidence correctly, you were then also driving the vehicle when you went to Battery Bay, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And is it also correct that when you arrived there, you actually gave a signal by pressing the brakes two or three times, so that the white policemen could see that you had now arrived at Battery Bay.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And I take you're absolutely sure of this particular fact, the fact that you drove the vehicle and you gave the signal?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Now will you just please go to page 1718 of the record.  Before we have a look at the record, can you just tell us if you were the driver, who sat next to you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Dube.

MR HUGO: And behind you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Simon Radebe.

MR HUGO: And in the rear left passenger's seat?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Ntombi.

MR HUGO: And you're absolutely sure and convinced of these facts?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I know is that Dube was next to me and Simon Radebe was on the back seat, whether he was directly behind or on the other side, I'm not sure, but I know that he was on the back seat.

MR HUGO: One fact that is very clear in your mind though, is that you were the driver?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now would you just look at page 1718 of the record, right at the bottom, once again it's Mr Samuel and he puts the following to Mr Botha
"He will state that Mr Radebe was driving the car and Mr Dube was seated in the front passenger's seat."

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know how this happened, because I was the driver and I'm the one who made the signal.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And then just once more look at the record, page 2024.  Maybe before we go over to the next reference in the record, page 1719, you don't have to look at it, I'll just read it to you.  Mr Samuel also then says that he, being you, will also state that he was present in the back seat of the car with Ntombi.  What do you say about that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I know is that I was the driver of that car and I'm the one who made the signals, so I can't understand how I could make the signal being on the back seat of the car.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Will you please go to page 2024 of the record, it's two-thirds down the page, it's Mr Samuel and he says
"He will also tell the Commission that in fact he was not driving the motor vehicle, but rather Mr Radebe was driving the motor vehicle on the day in question and even at the time when they arrived at Battery Beach."
Is this once more wrong?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it is wrong.

MR HUGO: You see what I don't understand is, you were sitting next to Mr Samuel when these things were put to the various witnesses and you must have realised that wrong facts are being put to the witnesses, is that not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is so, but then it didn't happen that way.

MR HUGO: Well what I want to know is, why didn't you correct him?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I did not think about doing that.

MR HUGO: You see it's even stranger to me is that I noticed yesterday that you're quite assertive, in that when Mr Samuel concluded your evidence-in-chief, you actually stopped him and you switched on the microphone again and you said to this Panel there's further evidence that you want to lead, can you remember that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: The operation at Battery Beach, what time did that take place, more-or-less, the time of the day?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was dark at that time, I think it was about seven.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And I don't want to go into unnecessary details here, but you then went to Winkelspruit, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And you were driving the vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Which vehicle is this?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Corolla.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you have a driver's licence, Mr Mbane, or did you at that time have a driver's licence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No.

MR LAX: Did you have any other kind of driving permit, other than an ordinary licence?  I mean for example, some people if they work in the Police or the Defence Force, they sometimes get a permit within that context, to drive vehicles.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not have a permit.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbane, was there any particular reason why Mr Radebe didn't drive, because apparently the vehicle was allocated to him?  Or a vehicle was allocated to him.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I was the one who used to drive the Corolla ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On that, you had given the impression to Ms Kubheka that Radebe was your transport man, your driver right from the beginning, why now dispel that image that you've created about Radebe being the driver, by you driving yourself, especially when you don't even have a driver's licence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We used to go to visit her without Radebe, so that was not the first time that I was driving.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So when you arrived at Winkelspruit, what was the time then more-or-less?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember the time.

MR HUGO: Can't you even say whether it was 6 o'clock, 8 o'clock or 10 o'clock?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was dark, but I cannot remember what time it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbane, after Ms Kubheka was taken by the other policemen at Battery Beach, out of your car and put into their kombi, in your evidence-in-chief you said that they then went off and you waited a while in your car and then you drove to Winkelspruit, now for approximately how long did you wait at Battery Beach after the others had left, before you went to Winkelspruit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think it was five to ten minutes.

MR HUGO: Five or ten minutes.  And then did you drive from Battery Beach directly to Winkelspruit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't make any stops along the way, to buy food or drink or anything like that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we didn't stop.