Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

AZHAR CACHALIA: As the Court pleases.  Sorry, as the Committee pleases.  Mr Sithole, I'm quite aware of that particular position.  I am saying that Mr Magwaza was consistent with his version in Court, denied all involvement.  Is that correct?  Is that correct Mr Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: The last I heard him denying or disputing that, it was during the time when Colleen was consulting with us.  And when I then arrived he admitted then and said, you now can say and be free that I gave you the firearm, because I have no any other alternative but to tell the truth.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Magwaza, sorry Mr Sithole, all I am saying to you is that Mr Magwaza had made a statement consistent with what he had said in Court.  Why did you not take that option?

MR SITHOLE: I came here then to tell the truth.  I parted with it, completely divorced myself from what I had said at the Court of law, or in Court.

AZHAR CACHALIA: But Mr Sithole what you are just saying is incorrect.  You did not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think we're beginning to flog a dead horse now.  I don't know if you'll ever get to it.  Raise it in argument I think Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As the Court pleases, thank you sir.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, there was a meeting held between yourself and other members of your IFP, I think it was Mr Zwane.  I speak subject to correct, I'll correct it if necessary.  With members of the ANC on the Wednesday when a meeting was arranged for the Saturday the 12th of February 1994.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, we had a meeting together with the ANC but I don't know as to what date it was.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm suggesting to you that the meeting was on Wednesday Mr Sithole.  It is possibly correct.  Is that what you're saying?  Sorry the Wednesday before Saturday the 12th of February 1994.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now, one of your members came and made a report to you about her discussion about the availability of shacks, the availability of place to put on her shacks, her shack, on the designated land, as you call it.

MR SITHOLE: I don't understand.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm saying one of your members came to you and said that, you know I went to the ANC and this what they have told me, and as a result of that you went to the ANC.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And there you met Mr Sandisile Dastile, the late Mr Dastile, and others.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And they disabused you of what was told to you by the lady that made the report to you.  Let me put it more simply.  They said to you, what the lady told you is not correct, we have no problems with the ANC, sorry with the IFP member putting a shack in the area.

MR SITHOLE: I don't quite follow you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Anyhow, as a result of that particular.  It's not very important what I'm saying but I just thought I'd lead you through it so that we have the sequence properly, but, as a result of that you agreed to meet on Saturday, the two committees, the civic committee and whoever else was necessary at the sports ground on Saturday at five o'clock in the afternoon on the Saturday the 12th of February 1994.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: What's confusing is what you said earlier on that my members came and told me that we're having a meeting with the ANC.  They were talking about or referring to the land.  That's what's confusing to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I think okay, we, Mr Cachalia said he was just leading up to the events just to get it in context, but the question he's putting to you now Mr Sithole, is, at that meeting on the Wednesday, or on that Wednesday, it was ultimately agreed, it was ultimately agreed that there would be a further meeting at the sports ground on the following Saturday, which was the 12 of February 1994, at five p.m. in the afternoon.  Is that correct?  That's what he's asking you.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it is so, to discuss about the committee.  This committee that was allocated to us.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Let me proceed Mr Sithole.

MR LAX: Just before you do, what his, his answer is not in agreement with what you put to him.  You suggested to him the meeting was about the allocation of land.  He's saying no, the meeting was about which committee would represent the people.  I just want to make that clear because we may go on to another issue and leave this unsaid, and then confusion could result.  Is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we could just sort out this issue and then it will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment, I see it's past one.  About the issue about what was the main purpose for that meeting on the Saturday.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.
	Mr Sithole is what I am saying to you is that you decided to meet on Saturday at five o'clock in order to discuss the allocation of land for putting up shacks and who was entitled to them, and those type of issues.  Is that correct, or not correct?

MR SITHOLE: No, that is not correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Tell me what were you going to meet for?

MR SITHOLE: We were meeting there about the committee issue, because the ANC had said they are giving us this committee, and we said no, you cannot give us any committee.  It's best for you to call the entire community, and then allocate us a committee from there, and they decided that I give a specific date for us to convene another meeting.  And I decided Friday, and they said no they cannot, and I gave them that leave to give us the date for the meeting and they had said on Saturday.  The issue was about the committee.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole I just want to finish off by saying that there is a difference in approach but that's not very fundamental to your application, so what I wanted to just correct before we adjourn for lunch, Mr Sithole, is that I have been told that that meeting was not on the Wednesday but it was on the Thursday, that would be the 10th of February 1994.  I just thought I should put it to you if you wish to make any comment about that.

MR SITHOLE: What I know is that that meeting was based on the issue of a committee.  This land you re bringing to my attention, I bear no knowledge of.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time then Mr Cachalia?  We'll take the lunch adjournment until twenty to two, quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I remind you that you're still under your former oath.

JOHN M SITHOLE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: (Cont)
	Mr Sithole, is it correct that you have responded to the Chairperson of the Committee when dealing with your evidence, that you have said that you had learned to fire the AK-47 while you were still in KwaZulu Natal at your home?  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Was that an AK-47?

MR SITHOLE: It was something similar to what I had used on that day in question.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Was it not an AK-47?

MR SITHOLE: It was AK in fact.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Whose AK was it?

MR SITHOLE: It belonged to one of the guys there at home.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, the name?

MR SITHOLE: I don't remember the name.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Why did he give you the gun?

MR SITHOLE: It is because I borrowed it from him for the purpose of shooting the animals.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What animals were you shooting sir?

MR SITHOLE: Those will be bucks.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now, you are saying to us Mr Sithole, and please you must understand that you are required to make full disclosure and you're not supposed to hide anything.  You are saying you went and borrowed an AK-47 for the purposes of hunting back, from a person that you do not know.  Is that what you expecting this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, from a person that he can't remember his name.

AZHAR CACHALIA: From a person whose name you do not remember.  Is that what you're expecting us to believe sir?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How long ago did that happen?

MR SITHOLE: It's quite a long time ago.