Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-17

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would say in terms of Region 6 because the Western Cape was allocated to me I would accept responsibility.  I was the primary source of information for Region 6 but I think it would be an incorrect inference to say that I was the primary source of information for the whole CCB structure regarding the Western Cape.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, if you'd gone into a meeting where a presentation was being made on whether Minister Omar should be eliminated or some other action taken against him and somebody had stood up in that meeting and said we think the man should be killed.  If you disagreed with that, you could stand up and say look, I know about politics in the Western Cape, it makes no sense to kill Dullah Omar in terms of the way in which the CCB defines its targets and its projects, do you agree with me?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR KHANOVITZ: Did you do that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KHANOVITZ: Why not?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I agreed that Minister Omar had to be eliminated.

MR KHANOVITZ: Can you tell us, give me the names of eight other or five other prominent UDF leadership people in the Western Cape at the time?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You can remind me, I can't think of any other names at this moment.

MR KHANOVITZ: Well you were the expert on Western Cape policy?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No please, Mr Chairperson, I do not ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: It's not what he said, with respect Mr Khanovitz, let him not pay for the gallery, my client at no stage said he was an expert on Western Cape politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but in response to the question can you name any other prominent UDF people in the Western Cape, what's your answer, I didn't catch it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I might be able to think of names like - and I stand under correction but what I do know who was also prominent figure in the Western Cape at that stage is our current Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel.  He was possibly a member of the UDF, I do not know, you'll have to ask him that.

MR KHANOVITZ: Well maybe you could explain to the Committee why Dullah Omar had to be eliminated and not Trevor Manuel?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is simply because I did not know Mr Trevor Manuel's name, I registered a project regarding Mr Omar because I received a specific instruction to do so.  If they gave me an instruction to do it in regarding Mr Trevor Manuel instead of Mr Omar then I would have done that.

MR KHANOVITZ: So you will agree with me that if Peaches instead of telling you that Dullah Omar is a person that you should focus on, if instead he'd come and he'd said Trevor Manuel is the person that you should focus on, will Trevor Manuel's name would then have ended up on that list as a target for elimination?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not necessarily, but possibly.

MR KHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl, it's clear that the process was entirely haphazard?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: What do you mean?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You know one would expect that if you were a professional organisation making intelligent decisions about which of your enemies should be eliminated in the Western Cape you would have done so on a scientific basis, do you agree with me, an informed basis?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I agree.

MR KHANOVITZ: You would agree with me that whoever was going to evaluate information to decide whether someone should be killed, that person should have an intimate knowledge of Western Cape extra-parliamentary politics, should have some understanding or guerrilla activity, Umkhonto weSizwe and so on and so forth.  Do you agree with me?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I agree.

MR KHANOVITZ: Otherwise how are they going to know who should be selected as a target?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That's obvious.

MR KHANOVITZ: And you will agree with me that I don't even need to start testing your knowledge on those aspects you had no intimate knowledge of Western Cape extra-parliamentary politics?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I did not.

MR KHANOVITZ: Which explain why you might believe the kind of information that someone like Peaches would feed to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The information that I received from Peaches I accepted it in good faith and I processed this information and whether a project on Minister Omar was eventually registered as a result of the initial information that I got hold of and whether this information played a role or not I do not know.  I'm trying to explain to the Commission what role I played in the project of Minister Omar.

MR KHANOVITZ: Your legal representative asked you in chief about the use of informers and your evidence was something to the effect that you know this was not unusual standard Police practice, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KHANOVITZ: Why do the Police use informers?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: To gain information, Sir, that would otherwise be impossible to get hold of.

MR KHANOVITZ: You'll agree with me it makes sense if you want to find out about what drug dealers are up to, it's useful to get an informer who is involved in the world of drugs?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KHANOVITZ: If you want to understand politics and the role of political organisations in the Western Cape, what possible sense can it make to rely on information supplied to you by a self-confessed gangster and criminal?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, if one looks at our crime history and if one looks at the statistics, the largest and the most amount of crime today in this country and in the past was as a result of information that was gathered by informants.  This is a standard practice.  In the past there was an informant system and I said this.

MR KHANOVITZ: Sorry, Mr van Zyl, I don't want to confuse issues, if your evidence had been that we recruited somebody on the executive of the United Democratic Front to get information about the United Democratic Front, I wouldn't be crossing swords with you.  What I want to know is what possible sense it makes to use a gangster to gather information about politics in the Western Cape?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Well it's quite logical that that member and that gangster had in all probability had contact with a person who was possibly connected with the UDF and who would be able to gather information from this structure.  You would recruit a source not for a specific aim, I mean a vehicle theft source would give you information on a security matter and a security matter source would give you information on a bank robbery that happened.  It is a diversified field.  He's not given a specific area and he's told that you're only going to give me information regarding the UDF, he can use his own discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanovitz, if I could just ask a question, it's not entirely in point but it's got to do with informers before it slips my mind particularly that it might do with the adjournment that we probably will have or that we will have in this matter?
	We have heard yesterday that you were the only person in Region 6 who had informants, unaware members reporting directly to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: At that stage, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What I can't understand and I must say that came as somewhat as a surprise to me, taking into account that you were all ex-members of the Police Force, a lot of you were attached to the murder and robbery squads.  Now an informer is an informer, surely as policemen you had informers working for you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why should you lose contact with those informers just because you're now working for the CCB?  The informer would never know that, why did the others lose informers who were so vital to their function, I just can't understand how the people up in Gauteng, not one of them had an informer when they were all previously murder and robbery squad policemen?