Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-26

CHAIRPERSON: Now were there any people in that direction in the main road under the trees?

ANDILE JACK: I saw only three people under the trees.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes Mr Riley?

MR RILEY: Thank you Chairperson.
	So when you in fact supposedly heard these voices the car's windows were turned up and the car was moving, is that correct?

ANDILE JACK: He stopped and when he was reversing he was winding down the window.

MR RILEY: So when he in fact pulled up next to the men, the window was already down?

ANDILE JACK: Yes the window was slightly open.

MR RILEY: I understood your earlier evidence to be that he only rolled down the window when he in fact he was standing there next to the people, he had reversed and pulled up next to the people?

ANDILE JACK: He did not open the window when he was next to the people.

MR RILEY: That's how I understood your evidence, he stopped and proceeded to a spot under the trees?

ANDILE JACK: Yes, he stopped at a stop sign, he reversed and he went under the trees, he went to a spot under the trees.

MR RILEY: Yes I don't want to harp on this point but you testified now that the window was in fact rolled down at the stop street, presumably that is ...(intervention)

ANDILE JACK: The window was not open at the stop street.

MR RILEY: Maybe I misunderstood you but that is what I heard you say?

ANDILE JACK: The window was not opened at the stop street.

MR RILEY: Well where was the window opened for the first time then if you would be kind enough to tell us?

ANDILE JACK: When he rolled down the window he reversed, he only rolled down the window when he was getting under the trees.

MR RILEY: Now your evidence was in fact that he stopped and proceeded to a spot under the trees, he had his lights on, he rolled down the window to talk to them, that's what your evidence was, is that how it happened?

ANDILE JACK: The window was not opened completely, that's what I said.

MR RILEY: So the window was then open at the stop street, sir?

MR JAMIE: Sorry, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

ANDILE JACK: That did not take place at the stop sign, he only rolled down the window when he was getting under the trees because he wanted to hear what these people had to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Riley, I'm not sure how much turns on this point but in any case we've heard what the evidence is.

MR RILEY: No, I just wanted to clarify that, I was trying to ascertain how he managed to hear the calling from outside and I got the impression that he had said that the window had been rolled down and that is why he could hear and that is what I wanted to clarify with him.

ANDILE JACK: When the people were calling the window of the car were closed.

MR RILEY: Now what happened when these persons started shooting there, what happened to you, what did you do?

ANDILE JACK: When they started shooting, the deceased pushed me, I went down under the dashboard.

MR RILEY: Did the deceased push you down or did you yourself hide under the dashboard?

ANDILE JACK: The deceased pushed me under the dashboard after seeing the firearm and I also tried to get under the dashboard myself.

MR RILEY: Now you did make a statement, I'm just asking you this because I wasn't aware that the deceased did in fact push you, in fact this is the first time you're testifying about that.  In paragraph 9 of the statement that you made you said and I quote
"The men then approached the driver's side of the car.  When they got to the vehicle they produced rifles and fired at Pro from point blank range.  One of the men carried a gun in addition to the rifle.  Pro was shot and fell on top of me.  I took cover under the dashboard in front of my seat.  Through the passenger window I saw the men walking around the vehicle to the passenger side."
Do you want to comment on that?

ANDILE JACK: Will the speaker please repeat the question.

MR RILEY: I'll just repeat the section that is important.  Your evidence today is that Mr Jack, the deceased, pushed you down when the firing started but when you made your statement you said one of the men carried a gun in addition to a rifle and then you go on and you say
"Pro was shot and fell on top of me.  I took cover under the dashboard in front of my seat."
So that is different from what you're saying today?  Do you want to comment on that?

ANDILE JACK: He pushed me and he fell on top of me and I got under the dashboard.  It's not that he remained there after falling but he pushed me under the dashboard and I also tried to get under the dashboard.

MR RILEY: Just one moment, Chairperson?  Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I've no further questions at this state, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RILEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Riley.  Mr Williams, have you got any questions?

MR WILLIAMS: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Toyise, have you got any questions?

MR TOYISE: No questions, Chairperson.  Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR TOYISE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I won't be very long, there's just one minor aspect I want to clarify?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: Mr Jack, can you just - the Committee hasn't been to the scene so they don't have the benefit of what the place looks like.  Can I just for purposes of record confirm with you that 1st Avenue is in fact a two way traffic road, that it's a single lane up and a single lane down?

ANDILE JACK: We have 1st Avenue on the other side and there's a corner and there's Emms Drive and there's another corner again at the main road.

MS PATEL: It is in fact just two lanes in which cars can go down the one lane and come up the other.

ANDILE JACK: Are you talking about the 1st Avenue?

MS PATEL: The 1st Avenue in which you turned left into.

ANDILE JACK: Yes.  It is a two way traffic that was the road that we were using.

MS PATEL: Okay and when Pro Jack reversed the vehicle after having heard his name being called he in fact reversed across the road onto the opposite lane and then onto the embankment on the other side, not so?

ANDILE JACK: Yes he went to the other side of the road because he was going straight to the trees.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jack, while you were watching television, where was Mr Pro Jack at that time?

ANDILE JACK: He was there with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also watching television.

ANDILE JACK: Yes he was also watching TV and also playing with the children.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any prior arrangement that he would be taking you home with his vehicle?

ANDILE JACK: Yes he made arrangements because when I was about to walk home he told me that he was going to take me home.

CHAIRPERSON: So would it be correct to say that up to point when he said to you that he was going to take you home you were under the impression that you'd be walking home?

ANDILE JACK: Yes, he told me that he was going to take me home because he was also going to his home and that road was not far from his home.

CHAIRPERSON: At whose house were you watching television?

ANDILE JACK: It was at my grandmother's place, that is his mother.

CHAIRPERSON: And since when about has he been at the house of your grandmother. You say that you left between 9 and 10 in the evening?  Since what time had Mr Pro Jack been at that house?

ANDILE JACK: I do not know about that because I was busy playing outside with my friends and I found him in the house.  I don't know for how long had he been in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: So you found in inside the house I assume when you went inside.  Now how long about was that before you got a lift home from him, a few hours?  For how long was that?

ANDILE JACK: Just a few minutes, ten minutes or so.