Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you agree with that?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes, I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you considered yourself party to that murder and to attack his house?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: You considered yourself party to the killing of Mr Maphaha and the attack on his house.

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes I see myself as part of the group because I also participated.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you speak English?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want you to deal with this.  In your application, paragraph 9(a)(i) you were asked to say what act you committed in respect of the offences for which you make application.  There you say you assaulted the deceased with a stick.  At best for you the deceased is the plural there.  I just want you to explain even if it was one of the deceased that was referred to there.  Explain that to me if you say in your evidence that you never hit anybody?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: What happened is that on the deceased I didn't manage to reach him but I'm the only person who broke the window panes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking that, I'm asking to explain in your application form, you say that
"I assaulted the deceased with a stick"

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: It means maybe I didn't manage to put in the right order but what is true is that on the deceased I never assaulted the deceased but I broke the window panes of the house belonging to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about any of the deceased.  There's two deceased.

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: The deceased, Mr Madadzhe, while he was thrown in the house once by the stick on the leg but then he was already dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you hit him with a stick then if he's already dead?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Because I was expected to participate seeing that we were doing the same thing so I should also participate in the other way as the others are doing or were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ndou?

MR NDOU: That is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mulaudzi, where on this application form of yours is it indicated that you're making application for amnesty for a murder?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Could you please repeat the question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I will repeat the question.  I want you to show me from the amnesty application form where it is indicated that you're making application for murder that you have committed?

ADV DE JAGER: Could we perhaps try and solve something before we - can you read?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Who explained the form to you?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: It's my colleagues who were working together jointly with the Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't fill in the form and you don't know what's been written there because you can't read and check it?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: All in all it can also be myself because I'm the person who explained how this case came about even if I'm unable to read.

ADV DE JAGER: No, I understand that.  Did you sign the form or did anybody else sign the form?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: I signed it.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you write?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes I can write but I'm unable to read English.

ADV DE JAGER: Alright, thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	So you don't know anything what is included in your application form?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: I know some of, not the contents, it is talking about the murder case and arson and assault.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So how do you know what is in the form if you can't read English?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: ...(inaudible) that they indicated that I've committed the murder, arson and assault, GBH crimes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That's not what I'm asking you, I'm asking you if you can't read, how can you know what is included in the form?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: I can know if I can call a person who is illiterate who can read and explain the contents of the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, we're not asking for some smart answers.  It seems to me that you can't say that you know what the contents are, now let's say that, it's nothing to be ashamed of, do you understand?  You're not able to say what the contents of the form is so let's leave it like that.  We won't hold it against you for not knowing.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now if I asked you for instance to look at paragraph 9(a)(i) of page 1 of your application form will you be able to tell us what is written down there, what acts, omissions or offences you committed or not?  Will you be able to tell us or not?  Look at the form please?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Because I'm unable to read I cannot tell what's written there.  If maybe somebody could read to me and ask me whether I know these things.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Now I think you agree with me that this form and the information that it contains is very important for your amnesty application, is that not so?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who helped you fill this form in?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Mr Abraham Ruali.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Somebody who was assisting us in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he an attorney?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: No, he's not an attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: What does he do, where does he work.

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: He's a mayor.

CHAIRPERSON: He's a mayor?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: He's working in Messina, he's a mayor in Messina.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when he filled this form in for you or helped you what was he?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: By then he was a mayor, by the time he assisted us in doing these things he was a mayor.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand your evidence you're not exactly sure what was filled in here?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: I'm sure of the contents but the only problem is that I cannot read.

CHAIRPERSON: No you can't be sure of the contents because you don't know what is in there, you can't read?  You've got to take the word of somebody else if they tell you what is in there.  Not so?  But you yourself cannot say what is in there?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and I don't mean to be insulting, there's nothing to be ashamed of.  So can you explain if there is something wrong in this statement, your application, you are unable to tell us why it's so because you never filled the form in, it was filled in on your behalf, is that correct?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes it's correct but he filled in when he was explaining to him how these things came about because he was not aware of my crimes, then I explained everything to him.

CHAIRPERSON: But if he recorded it incorrectly you can't explain it, not so?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: So because I'm blind simply meaning I cannot read, if there's something incorrect then maybe he would have identified this and this is wrong is this and this is in this way then I would have explained to him that this is not true.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you tell us why did you kill these two people, why did you assist or associate in killing these people, what was your reason?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: The main idea he raised when we were told about the meeting in the playing ground, what was discussed there is when we were discussing on the issue that the Venda country is not well governed because the people who are in the higher offices in the government were people who were co-operating with witches so for us to read our objective of making the government to fall is for us to sit down and find out that how we can make this government fall which is supported by the witches.  It's then that we decided to kill or to target the people who are supporting those people in the government.

CHAIRPERSON: In this case, witches?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: Yes, we targeted the witches.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Can you read any language or is it just English that you can't read?

NNDWELENI MULAUDZI: I can read Venda and then it's English that I cannot read or I'm unable to read.