Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, with your permission, if I might take it slightly wider here.  We are dealing with a period when there was a state of emergency.  We are dealing with a point in time when the armed struggle was escalating at an alarming rate.  We are dealing also with us having to detain people in terms of the emergency regulations.
 We had a vast, a vast amount of work to do.  There were many organisations that had to be monitored as well.  Although with all due respect, Mrs Mandela was a prominent figure, she couldn't solely be given all the attention of the whole Branch in Soweto.  We had to do what we could do with what we had to do it with, if that answers the question sir.

MR VALLY: So your priority was not the death or alleged death or torturing of individuals in Soweto, your priority was what?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: I deny that I did not regard that as a priority.  I most certainly did, and I think my record speaks for itself during my time in Soweto, but part of our work as well was, one has to bear in mind there was unrest at that stage, we are talking necklacings and all other actions which we also had to prevent.
 We also had to monitor meetings.  With all due respect, I think it is an unfair allegation Mr Chair, that I am accused that I didn't bear human lives as part of my responsibility.

MR VALLY: My question is very simple, there are these serious allegations some of which involve torture and murder, surrounding the Mandela United Football Club.  There are charges laid regarding abduction, yet you tell me you had other priorities, I ask you why?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chair, we could possibly pin this down to a particular month, time or date, as I said I left Soweto in 1988, during December.

MR VALLY: November and December 1988?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: As I have said, it might have been put on the morning table, but it was not my priority to deal with that which went on in the Mandela household.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the abduction and charges being laid regarding Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Tsabalala?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Subsequently through the media, yes Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Not at the time?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: No sir.

MR VALLY: Where the Security Branch members had taken statements from individuals involved in the abduction of Sibuniso Tsabalala and Lolo Sono where you tell us you had morning briefings, were you tell us that your primary focus was to look at incidents involving individuals who were politically active in Soweto and monitoring them.
 You tell me that you didn't know about it until recently?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, in Soweto where we were, it was a very large building.  We were on different levels, we were compartmentalised and every, most things as far as intelligence any way was concerned, was on a need to know basis.
 I certainly do not think at this stage that at every morning meeting, an Investigating Officer or his Commanding Officer would put on the table as to whose statement he had taken or was going to take.  I trusted those who did the investigations would do it according to procedures and to it thoroughly.
 It was not for me to question as to who would take what statement, there were people more senior than I who were in command of the Investigation Unit, sir.

MR VALLY: You were a Major at this stage?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: And that is a fairly senior rank?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: How many Majors were there in the Security Branch in Soweto?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: At that stage I would say five, maybe six.

MR VALLY: Five or six?  You have an allegation that Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela had been involved in an abduction and assault of two youths.  You are telling me that this was not discussed at the morning briefing?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, I can certainly not recall that I was present at a meeting where this abduction was discussed, I cannot call that to mind sir, I am sorry.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any information which was put forward at your morning meetings, regarding unlawful activities of the Mandela United Football Club?  Any single one?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: I cannot deny it implicitly, it might have been, it is probable that it was done, but I cannot remember any single incident that might have been put on the table on a particular day.  Sorry Mr Chairman, I cannot remember that.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the time when a machine pistol was found at the Madikizela-Mandela household?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes, sir.  May I have a moment to explain to the Commission how this came about?  I presume it was the matter where I was called out as a Duty Officer early one morning, where young people had been found shot in a house somewhere in Soweto.  I can't recall where.
 Upon arrival there, the Investigation Unit was already there.  To my knowledge information was gleaned on the scene that certain people were involved and that this had taken place due to an action by an individual to recover a Scorpion machine pistol and that he had then subsequently killed these people.
 And the follow up action there was done by the Investigation Unit.  Although I can recall, if I am not mistaken, I was part of the party that afternoon which visited the Mandela home, that is as far as that is concerned.

MR VALLY: So you personally visited the Mandela home?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: That particular afternoon, yes sir.

MR VALLY: And you were present when the machine pistol was found?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: No sir.

MR VALLY: So when was the machine pistol found?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, what I am saying is the Investigation Unit did the necessary investigation.  The procedure there that afternoon is that we did a penetration of the premises in order to secure the premises, to make sure that armed people there did not attack us or whatever, and then the Investigation Unit moved in.
 That is standard procedure sir.  We don't trample up a scene or whatever, the Investigative people do it and they do it according to procedures.  Whether they found it in which room, or in which possession, that I really cannot say.  I will not say anything about that.  ... incident where it went around, the recovery of a machine pistol which had been taken from a cadre due to the fact that he was allegedly drunk and undisciplined.

MR VALLY: You know Mr de Jager, for the Intelligence gathering component of the Security Branch in Soweto, the impression one gets is that you people were remarkably ignorant by virtue of the fact that we've had a number of community leaders here who talked about the illegal activities, they used words like gangsters, they've used words like thugs, we've had a number of Mandela United Football Club people sitting where you were, while serving sentences for murder, and you are telling me that you, whose job it was to monitor this kind of issue in Soweto, was not aware of any of these activities?