Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I know, but you know if you are telling the truth, which you are attesting here, you must be able to give rational reasons why you did something and why you didn't do other things in order to secure your purpose.  You and Mr van Zyl before you, whenever you're asked these questions, follow the same pattern "We did it because we did it, we are not prepared to debate with you why we did it and what other avenues were available to us."  Please try, if you want your version to be believed, to tell us why you didn't do the other things that are reasonable that I am suggesting.  It's not an answer to say "We did it this way because we did it this way."

EDWARD WEBB: We received information that it was to be in the Athlone hall and our information indicated that it was at Athlone hall, plus I was told that the source didn't want to reveal his identity and that's why for instance, we couldn't hand the matter over to the Police.  That alternative was not an option, and then I decided we were going to act.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let us just take this step by step.  You needn't have told the Police the identity of the information in order to warn them that "These dangerous terrorists that meet over there, we have the names of some of them, we have a letter from one of them admitting it, follow them, search their houses, find explosives."  Why didn't you ask whether this was weighed before the proposal was made to you?

EDWARD WEBB: If a member of the CCB was to approach the Police, the Police would ask you "But who are you, what's your business here?"  It would have simply blown the cover of the entire covert operation, so it couldn't work that way.  So the member who had the information couldn't even reveal his own identity.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was this information given to the Special Forces Information section in order to check it?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, there was no time.

GEORGE BIZOS: There was no time.  So that you are telling us that neither you nor anyone else checked it with the information department of the Special Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: No, the information came from the CCB and I accepted it as such.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now was it disclosed to you that the information came from a gangster?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you have approved it if you were told that the information came from a gangster which wasn't checked by anybody?  Would you have approved it?

EDWARD WEBB: That was not the modus operandi of the CCB to tell me where they got the information from.

GEORGE BIZOS: But were you a mere rubber stamp or did you have to exercise a discretion as to whether an offence would be committed against people or not?

EDWARD WEBB: I bona fide believed in what I did and I had a bona fide belief that what I approved and authorised was right in the circumstances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Answer the question please.

EDWARD WEBB: Please repeat it then.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you consider yourself merely a rubber stamp or did you have to satisfy yourself on the validity of the information that was placed before you and the necessity for it before you authorised crimes to be committed?  Were you a rubber stamp or did you have a discretion to exercise?

EDWARD WEBB: Of course I had a discretion to say yes or no, and I said yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but did it have to be a "somer so nee of ja", or did it have to be an informed and reasoned "nee of ja"?

EDWARD WEBB: It was an informed and considered yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see, right.  So it had to be a reasoned decision, a decision on good and valid reasons.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Otherwise you would not have approved it?

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Now you know, would you agree that military training or ...(indistinct) training possibly to a lesser extent, would be an inhibiting factor in too easily deciding whether a person or persons were really enemies of the State?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: The opinion of a gangster would of necessity lack that - who lacked that background and training, would be very dangerous to rely on.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if you had been told that the information came from a gangster, you would not have approved it, you might have wanted to have confirmation of the facts?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson, except I repeat, that was not the way the CCB operated, they didn't tell me where they got their information from.

CHAIRPERSON: If you asked would they have told you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, because names even down to the lower ranks were not known to me, that was the modus operandi of the CCB and we stuck to that very closely.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say it's the work of the CCB, you were the top of the pyramid of the CCB, General.

EDWARD WEBB: But would I ask ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you distinguish between the CCB and yourself?

EDWARD WEBB: I'm not making a distinction there, or ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: So you say this had nothing to do with me, the CCB was the - which shows that you distinguish yourself.

EDWARD WEBB: No, I said I that I approved the operation, so I'm not distancing myself.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but in giving evidence you say this was the CCB's work, not mine.

EDWARD WEBB: Modus operandi, that's what I said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now Mr Verster told us that you had channels of communication with the Police, contrary to what you tell us, who is telling us the truth?

EDWARD WEBB: I had no channels of communication with the Police during my tenure.  I was never told of any contact person at the SAP.  For some or other reason he didn't exist anymore.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll repeat the question that the Chairman asked one of the previous witnesses.  If there was a letter of an admission that a person was responsible for acts of terror, it would have been an open and shut criminal case.  Was that letter shown to you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was any mention made of that letter in the report by Verster to you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you describe the people that you wanted to frighten as a "bende", is that a gang?

EDWARD WEBB: A gang.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was the information given to you that the people that this was directed against were gangsters?

EDWARD WEBB: A gang committing acts of terror, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But in relation to the Western Cape and the people in the flats, a gang, does that mean that its membership consists of gangsters?

EDWARD WEBB: I was told that it was a gang committing acts of terror.

CHAIRPERSON: Usually the word "gang" refers to a group of people who commit crimes, not particularly political crimes, people who rob, deal in drugs, assault people, is that how you considered them, but they also participated in acts of a political nature, or did you in your own mind believe that they were a political group of people who committed political crimes?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what ...

EDWARD WEBB: Political, a group who were politically motivated to commit acts of terrorism, but the words were used "a gang" committing acts of terrorism.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't consider that they were a bunch of gangsters in the usual sense of the word, but who also indulged in political acts?

EDWARD WEBB: No.