Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

MR VISSER: That is a different story, I am not asking you whether the doctor asked you.  I am asking you in general, when you have a body on the table in an advanced state of decomposition, what would normally happen to the clothes, and you said it would be cut off, which is an obvious answer.
	When Mr Wills asked you the same question, you say especially when in an advanced state of decomposition, the body, the clothes would not be cut off, now how does that make sense?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: You see at times when a body is in an advance state of decomposition, the clothes are also decomposing, so we don't normally cut those clothes off.

MR VISSER: What do you do then?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It remains on the body.

MR VISSER: During the post-mortem examination?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Pardon?

MR VISSER: During the post-mortem examination?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Are you serious?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: A post-mortem examination is carried out by a doctor and the clothes are on the body, is that what you are saying?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Ismail, I will make certain submissions in that regard, of your answer.  The other thing, Commissioner Bosman asked you whether you measured the bodies and you started off by saying "yes", and then you were asked now what about completely decomposed bodies, and then you said they were rarely measured when they were completely decomposed, but they would normally be weighed.  That is how I understood your evidence, have I got that right?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now why weigh which is a more cumbersome exercise, than simply putting your measuring stick next to a body and say "all right, this is the length of this body"?  Why would that not be done?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I suppose when a body is decomposed, it is not in its complete state, it is difficult to measure from head to toe at times the bones of the feet and the hands are out, so it is difficult to measure it completely from head to toe.

MR VISSER: I see.  All right, but assuming for a moment, assuming for a moment that the body is more or less laying in a straight, stretched out position, and it is completely decomposed, would a measurement then be taken of the length of the body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Physical measurement?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Not always.

MR VISSER: But sometimes?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: I see.    Now you say the doctor would in other cases, make an estimate of length?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: This body would land on the same examination table as all the other bodies, not so?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you measured many bodies, the length of many bodies I take it?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am sorry?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And would you after a while have become accustomed when a body was on that table, to be able to judge just by looking at it, more or less the length pretty accurately, knowing how long the table was, normally how long the corpses are that you measured there?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes?  So if the doctor would for example in any particular case say 1.8 metre, would that be fairly accurate in your estimation based on your experience?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I would say so.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

ADV BOSMAN: Chairperson, I do have one more question before we - thank you.  Mr Ismail, were there any guidelines, was there perhaps a checklist from which you worked, when a body was brought in at the mortuary?  Were there any guidelines as to what you should do, or a checklist that "I have done this, that and the other" when a body was brought in?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Or did you develop your own rules?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you assist us, what did such a checklist or guidelines say in regard to say a decomposed body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: As far as my duty was concerned?

ADV BOSMAN: Okay.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Especially when you picked the decomposed body up, at the scene from the place where we picked the body up, it was bagged and then brought to the mortuary and we had special cubicles for decomposed bodies.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: They were put in there and the following morning the doctor is to come in and we should take the bodies out, cut open the bag and show him the body.  Thereafter he should take over, whether he requested a ...

ADV BOSMAN: It didn't say anything in regard to for instance remove the clothes and the manner in which the clothes had to be removed and what had to be done with the clothes?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: If he asked us to remove the clothes, then we did.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: And thereafter we put that into plastic bags, marked them and kept them in a room.

ADV BOSMAN: I am more interested in a possible checklist or guidelines.  Were these written instructions, guidelines?  Your duties, were they set out in writing?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: You don't have a copy available at all that you could assist us with?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Here?  No.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you.

MR LAX: Just one thing, in those cases where the clothes were not removed from a decomposed body, can we safely assume that a thorough post-mortem wasn't done in those instances?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.  Yes, you can say that.

MR LAX: Because if a thorough post-mortem was done ...

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: The clothes would have been removed, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions, further questions arising?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chair, I haven't had my turn yet.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is why I am asking, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.   Mr Ismail, I want you to look at page 68 of Bundle 2, your estimates.  You have said this is in your handwriting, or your notations there, should I rather say.  This is in your handwriting?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR WILLS: I see that there is no sort of fractions or serious fractions in regard to the height, it is 1.6 and it is just marked at 60 kg.  Are you able to say, because this is your work here, are you able to say that there is a probability that you didn't measure this body or, and this is an estimate or otherwise?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In fact, I cannot remember this specific one, but I just wrote from what the doctor asked me to write.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, you see ...

CHAIRPERSON: But sorry Mr Wills to interrupt, I thought if a body was weighed, you would actually do it?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the doctor?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: What I am trying to say sir, I never always scribed, if I wasn't scribing, I may have been helping to weigh the body or cut open the body.  This particular, it is my handwriting, so I was scribing then.  I don't know whether it was weighed or wasn't weighed, I am not sure.

MR WILLS: Possibly I can ask, was - if you did weigh the body and you did measure the body yourself, would you do that in the presence of the doctor?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Well, yes.

MR WILLS: Would you fill in these two items at the same time?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No, we wouldn't fill it in, if I was measuring the body, then I would tell the doctor the weight and height and he would tell the guy who is scribing, it was difficult for the doctor to write, all dressed up and messed up.

CHAIRPERSON: In the case where you are the scribe, let's assume like in this matter where it is your handwriting, you are the scribe and you weighed the body, what would happen?  You would put the body on the scale, you would look at the weight, then what?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In this case, if I was the scribe, then I definitely didn't weigh or measure the body.

CHAIRPERSON: So you wouldn't have been the scribe and done the weighing?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.