Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

ANDRIES MOLAOA: They ran away.

UNKNOWN: Did they take the keys with them?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, they did.

UNKNOWN: Who took the keys?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: This one who was in the car.

UNKNOWN: Did your brother at some stage pull out his firearm, or made a sign as if he was pulling out his firearm?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: No, no, he never did that.

UNKNOWN: So is it your evidence that he was shot because the other one said he must shoot him?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: What were you doing in Alberton?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: We took our father to a doctor.

UNKNOWN: You've heard the evidence of the applicant, he says that he identified you as policemen because there was a microphone in your car, was there a microphone in your car?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, there was.

UNKNOWN: Where was it?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was underneath the dashboard.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it anything to do with that contraption hanging on the windscreen?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Nothing of that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller, have you got any questions?

MR MILLER: Yes, Chairperson.
	First of all, where did you father live, where was his home?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: His home was QwaQwa.  He was here on duty.

MR MILLER: Now just hang on, you say "on duty", do you mean he was a policeman?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: No.

MR MILLER: So what duty are you talking about?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He had broken limbs and my brother took him to a doctor.

MR MILLER: So while he was here in Johannesburg area, he surely stayed with you at Pimville, Zone 3?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: No, he didn't stay with us.

MR MILLER: Where did he stay?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He stayed at work.

MR MILLER: Well where was his work?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Sharpeville.

MR MILLER: Sharpeville, that's near Vereeniging.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Rosherville.

MR MILLER: Rosherville.  Is that on the East Rand?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I'm not au fait with the fact that it's in East Rand or at what place it is situated.

MR MILLER: Okay well, you see the reason I'm asking you all these question is, you say you took your father to a doctor in Alberton, right?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MILLER: No wasn't this doctor some very far distance from where your father was staying?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in dispute that the incident occurred near Alberton?

MR MILLER: No, it's not.

CHAIRPERSON: So what are we squealing about?

MR MILLER: But what might be in dispute is possibly what exactly they were doing there and how they came to be there.

ADV SIGODI: Does it matter what they were doing there?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter what they were doing there?  Your client says he shot the policeman there in Alberton.

MR MILLER: Well I'll leave it there then, Chairperson.  	Anyway, are you a policeman also?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I am not a policeman.

MR MILLER: But the car you were driving in, it was a police vehicle wasn't it?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: The car that I was driving in was the one that was used by my brother.

MR MILLER: In the course of his official duties?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, on this issue of the car, was it his own private car or was it a car that he had been given at work?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was an official vehicle the he used during the course of his duties.

MR MILLER: And it had various police equipment in it, including a radio?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I don't understand your question.

MR MILLER: It had a police radio inside it?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is correct.

MR MILLER: What colour was it, was it the usual yellow that the police were then using?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was white in colour.

MR MILLER: White with the blue stripes, as you now see the police cars?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller, it is your client's case that this was an unmarked vehicle.

MR MILLER: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I would imagine blue stripes would be regarded as marked, not so?

MR MILLER: I'll leave that question then.
	Now this is some time ago, this happened in, when, in 1992, which is now very nearly seven years ago, right?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is correct.

MR MILLER: Do you still remember clearly what happened that day?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I do not remember clearly what happened there on that day, there has been a number of years since this incident took place.

MR MILLER: So if I said to you that my client, Mr Nhlapo, was on the passenger's side - I understood you to say he was on the driver's  side, have I got it right?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He was on the driver's side.

MR MILLER: And if I said to you he was on the passenger's side?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That won't be correct.

MR MILLER: Can you be sure of that after a period of nearly seven years?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes.

MR MILLER: So, you said in your evidence that the person on the left-hand side got in the car, now that must have been my client, Mr Nhlapo, because the left side is the driver's side.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it depends on which way you're looking at the car, isn't it?  If you're sitting in the car, the driver's side is on the right-hand side.  If you're facing the car from the front, it is on the  left.

MR MILLER: Well let's ask the witness, Chairperson.
	When you say the left-hand side, which was are you looking at the car, from the front or from the back?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: From the back.

MR MILLER: Right, then I'm right, the left-hand side is the passenger's side.  So you say the person on the left-hand side got into the car and demanded the keys, right?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I do not understand your question.

MR MILLER: Well you say that the person on the passenger's side got in the car and demanded the keys.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MILLER: Was it not the person on the driver's side?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Who was demanding the keys?

MR MILLER: Yes.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, it was not the person on the driver's side who demanded the keys.

MR MILLER: Now wait a minute, you just told us one second ago that it was the person on the passenger's side, now you say it was the person on the driver's side, now which was it?

UNKNOWN: Sorry Mr Chair, the witness said it was the person on the left-hand side and not the person on the right-hand side.  That is how I heard it.  Can the Interpreter maybe clarify it?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is what the witness said, as you say.

MR MILLER: Thank you.  And tell me, my client's colleague, was he armed?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I did not see whether he was armed or not.

MR MILLER: You see you say the person on the passenger's side, who according to you was not my client but his colleague, was pointing a firearm.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was Mr Nhlapo, not his colleague, his colleague was the one who got into the car.

MR MILLER: Did you not see a third person at all there?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I never saw a third person.

MR MILLER: But you can't dispute the fact that there might have been a third person standing some distance away, keeping observation?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I never saw the third person at all, I only saw two people.

MR MILLER: No, but listen to me.  If I say that there was a third person, can you say that it's a lie?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I say I only saw two people.

MR MILLER: Now is it not so that my client demanded from your later brother his firearm?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is not so.

MR MILLER: Well what I forgot to ask you was, was your brother in fact in possession of a firearm?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He didn't have it in his hands, but he had it around somewhere in his body, but not on his hands.

MR MILLER: In his waist in a holster?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And you, were you armed?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: I was not armed at all.

MR MILLER: Well you've heard that the reason why this all happened, according to my client, is that they needed arms to defend themselves as the squatter camp, against the IFP, did you hear that?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, I've heard that.