Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

BENNET SIBAYA: First of all, he said that he'd come back to look for him and the second time he said I must leave him, I mustn't worry about Mr Mazibuku.  The second week he told me that Mr Mazibuku had been shot by other taxi drivers, he then showed me where all this had taken place.  He said that I must say that Mr Mazibuku had knocked on ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The witness is going too fast.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell the witness to ...[intervention]

MR DONAN: Slower, a little bit slower.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

BENNET SIBAYA: The last time Mr Segal said I must wait by a restaurant in Kenilworth when it was dark, we then went to 121 where all this had happened - 129, I apologise.  He said that I must say that I knocked on number 3 on 129 and he asked me if I still knew the registration number and I said: "Yes", he said: "Those are the important things.  He said that I must say that the map had fallen off from the car and Mr Madasi had left the cap from the black car or the darker car, these are the things he told me to say.

JUDGE WILSON: When was this that he told you to say these things?

BENNET SIBAYA: Early 1994.

MR DONAN: Did you satisfy yourself that Mr Mazibuku in fact had been murdered?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was shocked when I heard this but then I thought taxi drivers fight all the time but I was a bit scared.

MR DONAN: When was he murdered?

BENNET SIBAYA: Two weeks after I'd spoken to Mr Segal.

MR DONAN: You've made a subsequent statement to Mr Lucky Najuzela - you're not finished?
	Mr Chairperson, may we have a very short adjournment, my client is not feeling well and he just wants to be excused if he may?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

BENNET SIBAYA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: Thank you, I'm indebted for the indulgence of the Committee.
	Mr Sibaya, on the 3rd of November 1997, you made a statement to Mr Lucky Najuzela of the Truth Commission and that statement is item number 8 at pages 22 to 26 of Exhibit G, could you look at that statement and confirm that what I'm saying is correct?  Is that the statement that you made to Mr Lucky Najuzela?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, that's correct Sir.

MR DONAN: In that statement you explained that you had given false information and you gave the reason why you'd given that false information?

BENNET SIBAYA: That's correct Sir.

MR DONAN: At paragraph 24, you very briefly explained why you'd given the false information, you said
"I was extremely afraid of Mr Desmond Segal because he'd assaulted me and also advised me that he had a device in his car which could destroy my house"
Is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That's correct Sir.

MR DONAN: Did you see the device in the car?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, he opened the boot and I could see it.

MR DONAN: And what did he tell you?

BENNET SIBAYA: He said I must never ever change that information because he was going to kill me and my children because he wanted to go to the Judge with full information so that he can be able to implicate Mr Ntsebeza.

MR DONAN: Now, after you made that statement, you were persuaded by Archbishop Tutu to go into protective custody, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, that's correct Sir.

MR DONAN: And you remained in protective custody till all the evidence before the Goldstone Commission of Enquiry had been concluded, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, Sir.

MR DONAN: You tendered and testified before the Goldstone Commission, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That's correct Sir.

MR DONAN: It is correct too - will you confirm that Mr Lubbe testified before that Commission and said that he too was not prepared to take the Truth Commission into his confidence and therefore withheld certain documents from it when he was investigating the allegations which you had made?

BENNET SIBAYA: May you please repeat the question?

MR DONAN: Mr Lubbe testified before the Goldstone Commission and he said that - he presented certain documents there which he had not presented to the Truth Commission when he had already received them during the second half of 1997, he said he did not present those documents because he did not trust the Truth Commission?

JUDGE WILSON: Where does that appear in the Goldstone Report?

MR DONAN: It is not in the report, I'm placing it on record - if I may, to place the response and the conduct of my client within a particular context.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible] that Captain Lubbe volunteered that when he left the employ of the TRC, he decided to take the original documents with him because he didn't trust the TRC.

MR DONAN: It is just the final clause which I'm attempting to place on record, if it is common cause then I shall take it no further.
	Now, between the time that you testified before the Goldstone Commission and the present day, have you remained in fear of the police?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was from the shopping centre and the police called me, they said they wanted to protect me against APLA and I told them that I don't know anything about APLA, they must just leave me alone and I went back to my house.
	Even now - December time, I was from the shopping centre and I saw two policemen driving in a van, they called me and they said: why did I relieve Mr Ntsebeza from all these implications and I told them that I had no reason - because I don't even know who's the APLA, I was just telling the truth.
	They couldn't make a U-turn because they were driving on a one-way road and I had to run away from them.  I went to one of the houses and I knocked in this and I heard them ringing the bell at the front door.

MR DONAN: When did this event occur - this latest episode with the police?

BENNET SIBAYA: It happened December time, I can't remember whether it was the 18th or the 17th of December.

MR DONAN: Have you ever been a police spy?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, not at all.

MR DONAN: And have you ever received payment from the police, either for spying or for testifying in their favour?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, not at all, there's not even a single policeman who can say I did that.

MR DONAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Thank you Mr Sibaya.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, any questions you wish to put to this witness?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, there's just one aspect which concerns me and the applicants and that is - I want to make reference to page 327 of the typed transcript, where Mr Sibaya was being led by Mr Prior and it's the last 10 lines or so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

NORMAN ARENDSE: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya, Mr Prior asked you the following question
"Were you able to describe any person that you saw in the street at or near either the dark vehicle or the white coloured vehicle"?
Mr Sibaya, you replied:
"I said to the police there was people that arrived with weapons, I could not identify them because it was dark.  I just heard one of them saying:  "Madasi, you left a cap in the car", however the one we had found in the car - I told them it was a well-built man"
Now, that's what you said when you gave evidence there - I just want to ask you, why did you mention the name of Madasi who is one of the applicants sitting over there with the white top, why did you mention his name when you were sitting here giving evidence under oath - Mr Segal wasn't here, in fact by then you knew he had died, no-one had put you under any pressure, why did you mention his name that day?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mr Chairperson, I'd already said that Mr John Lubbe - I didn't know that he wasn't one of Mr Segal's people because he brought a photo of the person that Mr Segal brought to me but he said to me he was a policeman from the Truth Commission.  I don't know those people, that's the information that I got from them because they wanted enough information to implicate Mr Ntsebeza.