Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: One firearm was with the policeman who was inside but it was not in his hand.  After kicking the door open I saw the firearm that had fallen on the other side and the policeman was standing on the other side crying and the second pistol we got it from the policeman who was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any ammunition in the firearms?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes there was ammunition, yes there was ammunition in both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the magazine that was in the pistol.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes, each pistol had it's one magazine?

CHAIRPERSON: And that was all?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes but I don't know how many bullets were in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you.  Carry on?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When we left the police station we drove to a certain house in Mdantsane.  When we arrived there this house was used by the comrades, the ANC comrades were using this house.  We got in there and we made friends with these comrades but they didn't know anything about our visit but they saw the firearms but they didn't know how did we get the firearms and the operations that we were involved in, they knew nothing about it.

CHAIRPERSON: What eventually happened to those firearms?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We went to Cape Town with these firearms.  After that as we wanted the firearms to train people we gave these firearms to the other people to train the comrades.  That was the last time we saw those firearms, we handed them over to the comrades in the townships in order to train the other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you give it to?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: There were many comrades there.  Some firearms were kept ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't ask you how many comrades, I asked who did the firearms - who received the firearms?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We gave them to comrade Dalasile, he was the one who was keeping the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Dalasile?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Dalasile was a comrade who was also a member of the MK, who was also a member of SANCO.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it his job to see to training or to co-ordinate training in Cape Town?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The duties that were given to him was to keep the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you next see Mr Hani?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I did not see him after coming back from the Ciskei.

CHAIRPERSON: No, when did you see him after leaving the police station?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I did not see him after this incident of the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether a report was made to him about the success or otherwise of this operation at the police station?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I suspect but I cannot say for sure because after that we were taken by the provincial command who wanted a report and he made that report.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was still answering the questions.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you went to Mdantsane and you met these comrades, what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: He went to Cape Town and handed over the guns to Dalasile in Cape Town whose duty it was to keep the firearms in safe custody.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairperson, there is another incident which occurred at Mdantsane.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.  Now you met the comrades at Mdantsane, you made friends with them, what happened?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: After a day or two, after this incident of the police station, Frankfort Police Station, one of the comrades, Kabane Muntsu ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Kabane Muntsu?

MR JAMIE: Kabane Muntsu, it is M-U-N-T-S-U.  That was a combat name, his real name was Pumalele but I do not know his surname.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Kabane Muntsu, how do you spell Kabane?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Kabane means comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is that not his name?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Muntsu - carry on, you met this Muntsu there?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Comrade Muntsu and asked me and Monandise to accompany him, he would like to see a certain family that he hadn't seen for a long time and he also had a friend there that he wanted to see.  On our way to this place we met with a police van, they tried to stop us.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were there?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The three of us, it was myself Monagise and Muntsu.  Muntsu was a driver, Monagise was occupying the passenger seat and I was at the back seat of the car and we were armed because we were expecting anything to happen at that time.
	We met with this police van that was coming from behind.  I saw them when they were flickering lights, trying to pull aside and wait.  We did not want to stop here and we told the driver to continue driving, he was told by Monagise to continue.  As we were approaching the cross-roads junction and Monagise told him to continue driving and turn to the right hand side and accelerate.  Just before he could do that, as he was trying to turn to the right hand side at this cross-roads junction, as we were still approaching this cross-roads junction, the police van was trying to overtake and block the way at the front and we had to go through to the left hand side of the car and firing took place in that process.  Monagise was armed with an R5 rifle, he fired and shouting to the driver to stop the car and the car stopped and we alighted ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So both parties started to shoot at each other, there was a shoot-out?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No, the first person to shoot as far as I can remember was Monabise.  When the police were trying to overtake Muntsu was trying to turn to the right but the police tried to overtake on the left hand side and block the car and they came straight to Monabise's side and he started firing and he shouted that the driver should stop the car and then the car stopped.  We alighted and we were shooting going towards the van.  Before I could alight from the vehicle I realised that the van was no longer on the road, it was on the other side of the pavement and it looked like there was a stone on the other side, a big stone.  The car was not straight, the police van was not straight because of this stone that was underneath.  I noticed that and I got out of the car and I started firing.  I opened the door of the car and I took this 9 mm parabellum, the one that was from the policemen and I took that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're going too fast.  This motor vehicle the police was driving in, what was it, a van or a car or what?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It was a van.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When I got into that van I opened the door, I took this 9 mm parabellum.  After taking this firearm and we searched these people because we thought it's either they were dead or they were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this police van overturned somewhat?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It was slightly - it had slanted because of the stone, the big stone that was underneath.

CHAIRPERSON: And then when you opened the door there how many occupants did you find?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I saw two policemen, two policemen were in that car.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they conscious?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When I looked at them I told myself that those people were dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you removed what?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We took two pistols, a 9 mm pistol ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You took it?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I took one 9 mm, the one that was lying on top of the policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: And who took the other firearm?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I cannot remember about the second one but after doing that we ran away, we did not go back to the car and we went to a wall or fence and we jumped over that and we threw the firearms on the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: You what?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We threw the firearms on the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: What's happening?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: After taking these firearms we did not go back to our car.