Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I cannot remember seeing the officers coming in.  I would just see the officers up in the podium as the people who used to be respected.  We did not respect them on that particular day because of what was happening.  They would come in and they would be called to go up to the podium.  I remember in the middle of the night when they were talking about two white men, Maj Simms and Col Oosthuizen, Insp Mfene suggested that they be released but the police refused.  They said these people who were called seconded officials in the Ciskei, were part and parcel of the Ciskeian police.  I remember they were already on their way out and they had to go back again to the house and the police refused.  Among the black officers, I do not remember any of the black officers wanting to leave.  The people who had requested to be relieved were Col Simms and Col Oosthuizen.  I don't know whom did they approach to announce that in the hall but that was never accepted.  They were told to remain there because we wanted this action to be seen as the action of the police at large, the police were in one voice, were one.

MR OBOSE: Now, generally speaking were police in favour of the continued rule of Brig Gqozo or not, on the whole?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I am not going to speak on behalf of the senior officers.  The police at the lower ranks were not satisfied about Brig Gqozo's rule.  I remember one day, on a Sunday, as I was still working for the riot unit, I heard that the soldiers were shooting one another.  They wanted to overthrow the government.  We went to the base to assist them but their officers in the army, during the attempted coup d'etat of Brig Jamane, we were shot at, we couldn't get inside, but if there was a way of removing Brig Gqozo, we were prepared to do anything to help anyone who was saying that Brig Gqozo be removed, because to us he was a monster, he was the worst monster, and I was even there when the people were being shot at the stadium, innocent people, and even the soldiers began to shoot one another.  The previous night as we were given the briefing at the stadium there was no sign that there would be a shooting.  We got a surprise when we saw people being shot at.  That is when the dissatisfaction started.  I did not like him at all, because even when we went to his office, we used to fight with words and I asked him how could he kill people that instead of telling the people.  When we went to the state house the following day he was not there, he had run away.  The only people who came were people like Zamtus, Titus and Smarts Ngonyama.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Commissioner, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose.  Any questions Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nkwenkwe, at the time you and the other group of people, you went to Brig Gqozo's place or palace, you went there to look for Mr Nqoya, am I correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: We did not go there to look for Mr Nqoya, but we made mention to Brig Gqozo that we had some information that Mr Nqoya was there and we also wanted him to go there to the college.  The police wanted to be addressed by Brig Gqozo, that is what we told him.  That is what he totally refused, he did not want to go to the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I must have misunderstood your evidence.  I understood your evidence to be that Nqoya, there was a group of people who were sent to look for Nqoya at Mr Gqozo's place and they came back saying that they couldn't find him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no. no. that's not the evidence.  The evidence was that after a number of delegations had been sent to look for this commissioner, unsuccessfully.   At one point this witness was a member of a delegation that was also sent to look for the commissioner.  They also didn't get him.  At some later stage they were delegated further to go and call Brig Gqozo to come and address the police in the college and that is how they went to wherever Brig Gqozo was living at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.  Anyway, be that as it may, there at the college, on your evidence as a whole, there is nothing which suggests that there was a discussion that Brig Gqozo should step down.  Am I correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: That was not mentioned, that is Brig Gqozo stepping down because we were also afraid because that information would be had by the people who were close to Gqozo and we would be arrested.  We were just calling him but if he had gone to the college he wouldn't be able to get out again because we did not want to include that in our agenda, that is the overthrowing of Brig Gqozo, we did not want that to be included in our agenda.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And secondly before you went to the college you never met Insp Mfene.  Am I correct?  That is on the 22nd.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Myself, I'm going to speak about myself, I met with Insp Mfene many times, but we were not meeting to discuss about what was going to happen at the college because we were working at different places.  As a person who was staying at Nqushwa, I would go via his place and ask him about anything or what is happening, and then he would tell me that there is a meeting on the 22nd and then he would say - then we would meet at the meeting on the 22nd.  I knew very well that on that particular day, the 22nd that is, something was going to happen because I knew very well that the masses on the ground were very dissatisfied with Gqozo's rule.  We had our own hidden agenda.   Even if Gen Nqoya didn't summon us, sergeants would go there because that meeting was not called for sergeants and we knew that the sergeants would go there and disrupt the meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where was this meeting, oh I'm sorry.  Did you and Mfene and others ever discuss the question of Brig Gqozo stepping down?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: No, we never discussed that but we knew that something was going to happen because that was towards the 27th of April, that is the voting or the elections, but the people were continuously being killed by the ADM and we knew very well that we would not be able to vote in that area.  We did not vote, we were also interested in voting but only the National Party people were voting.  We did all that underground, we wouldn't stand up and tell everyone about it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So am I correct to say there was no common purpose between you and Mfene and others that on that day Brig Gqozo should step down?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Some of us knew that Brig Gqozo should step down on that particular day, but we couldn't tell everybody.  First of all, Gen Nqoya had bodyguards, people like Muket and such in line.  The information would leak and get to Brig Gqozo's ears via people like Nqoya but I myself knew very well that on that particular day, he was supposed to step down and we were even prepared to die.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was the plan that you had for Brig Gqozo to step down?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Gen Nqoya did not come back, that is when we took a decision that we should go straight to Brig Gqozo, but our route would go via the soldiers who were safeguarding him.
We managed to talk to the soldiers after they had been to the college telling us that they were sent by Brig Gqozo to inspect, or to see or to check what was happening at the college.  I don't know whether that has answered your question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Not really.  What I want to know, there at the college, did you have plans of how to topple Brig Gqozo?