Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, I think from what was just said, it is as far as a political motive is concerned that is, I think that that stands clear that obviously it was politicised.
	As far as the question of full disclosure is concerned, Mr Chair it is my honest submission that, also looking at the events leading to what occurred on that specific day, the question remains who actually attacked who.  I think it was said by Mr Mbatha who said the IFP acted proactively because they knew that they were going to attack and they wanted to defend themselves because, I think it was Mr Mpongosi said, there was women and children and they knew that the ANC were coming from them.  
	Mr Chair it's my submission that this version of events, or what preceded the actual incident, is to a great extent supported by the witness Mr Dastile, in stating the frame of mind of this ANC group of people before this actual shooting occurred.  Mr Chair if I may I'd just like to refer back to Mr Sithole's application.  He does not deny that he was armed with an AK-47 and he shot at people, and he believes he also shot Mr Dastile, but I think his evidence was, as far as the incident itself is concerned, he said that it was confusing, it was hostile, a shot rang out and he believed that shot to come from the ANC side, and once again referring back to Mr Dastile's evidence that people were armed with machetes and assegaais and kerries, and he specifically mentioned firearms.  Now whether that was a mistake is to be argued.  But I believe it was quite clear that he did mention firearms in that specific group.  Which obviously leaves the question, is it not possible, or indeed the version of the applicants, or Mr Sithole specifically, had said a shot rang out.  I don't think he even goes as far as saying, he presumed the shot came from ANC side and upon that he started firing.  
	Mr Chairman it's my submission that looking at all the surrounding circumstances I think it's, it wouldn't be accurate to say the IFP as such attacked the ANC.  I think if I might refer to a specific choice of words or the way it was translated by the interpreters, to a question put to Mr Dastile himself, I think he said in discussion between his brother late Mr Dastile and Mr Sithole, Mr Dastile said to him we must not allow the people to fight.  Mr Chair it's my submission that it was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's clear from Mr Sithole's evidence that that was his attitude, and when he went to Magwaza he went to Magwaza to talk peace, but when he got there he had an AK-47 thrust in his hand and was told by his leader, the time is too short, it is now time for action.  So Sithole right until the last minute tried to get peace, but he wasn't given that opportunity when he went to his people, instead he was given a deadly weapon and told to go and use it, and he basically obeyed, on his version, he basically obeyed an instruction from a leader, which the Zulu thing to do without questioning.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, and just in taking where you left off, that is exactly the structure in this community, I think it was unthinkable that within the Zulu community, the IFP as such, members would not partake in what was obviously going to happen.  Mr Chair and I believe that all preceding incidents taken into account, there was, as Mr Sithole said, he was left with no choice.  They were under the firm impression that they were under attack, there was going to be bloodshed, and the only thing that they were left to do was, according to him, to defend themselves, which was in the end what they, which is my submission, what they did in the end.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you say, and I'm just raising it, we know from the evidence that the IFP supporters in that community were preparing for trouble.  They had sent around collection, they had in fact acquired communal firearms.  We hear from Mr Mpongosi that you know, the first thing he did was he ran and got his own firearm, as did Zwane and others.  Then they had the communal ones, and these were given out.  Does that, it's also, does that give an indication that they, or a confirmation of the fact that they may have been the aggressors?  They were preparing for this sort of thing and they were more or less ready.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  I think it was upon a question to Mr Mpongosi, why did he buy this arm, I think he testified it was even before he want away in December and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said he got it in November for defence, and because he'd heard about all the troubles elsewhere in the country.

MR LAX: I might just add, initially he said he bought it a few days before this incident, but when he was pressed on the issue it became clear that he bought it some months before the incident.  But one of the other applicants also spoke about how he went down to the river with somebody, and then finding the river full they decided to join the group that were heading up.  And there was an interesting use of language there where he said, "...We were going to go and join the others in the fight, in the attack."  That's how he put it.  I can't remember the precise thing, I can pick it up later.  There was a choice of word which is implicit of wanting to attack, of being involved in an attack, because you will recall I questioned that person to say, well, why didn't you just flee, how come this exact opposite kind of intention.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Lax.  I think just to start at the end of what you said, I think it was also mentioned by several people that the river were in flood and some of them contemplated the option of fleeing but apparently it was not a viable option.
	And just getting maybe back to Mr Chair's question about the question of firearms, I think Mr Mpongosi also said that the reason for acquiring these firearms were because they were anticipating trouble.  Now be it as it may, I think it might be speculative to say that anticipating trouble necessarily implies that they wanted to attack anyone at any stage.  And if I'm not mistaken Mr Chair I, you made mention of the communal firearms, I think Mr Sithole or one of those applicants specifically mentioned that those were Mr Magwaza's he had extra firearms.  
	I think that also on the question to Mpongosi after he said he donated twenty rand to buy these firearms, I don't think, if I followed correctly, that the firearms which they intended buying were already bought at that stage.  I stand to be corrected but I think it was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'll check that up on the record.

MR LAX: I can help you there.  It was the group, they went to the group which he called Sanibonani, Shangaans, and they bought the weapons from those young people.  That was quite clear that the money raised was used to buy those weapons from those people.  Because we asked where were the weapons from, hang on, I'm confusing something, yes.  I beg your pardon, I am confusing something.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Lax, I believe he said that's on the question from Judge Sigodi I think that's where he said he got his weapon from.  I stand to be corrected, I think at that stage, maybe there's no evidence that the communal cache  as such were already bought by them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who had his uncle's weapon?

MR LAX: That was Mpongosi.

CHAIRPERSON: He got it from his uncle.

MR LAX: Mpongosi got his from his uncle.  One of the other bought his weapon from the Shangaan people.