Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-09

MR RHAMAPHOSA: I will not be able to speak with any form of expertise sir, but the evidence that we have is that there was a collection of soldiers, not all the soldiers were there but a collection of them who were seen to be harbouring behind the shrub, behind the earth mound so that when people broke out, they had to reinforce those who were there so they ran, in my view, to try and actually shoot because most of the people were shot...

CHAIRPERSON: ... [Indistinct]

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson thank you, there are two matters on which I would like to hear Mr Rhamaphosa's comments.  The first one deals with the question of a possible ambush.  Mr Rhamaphosa you will note that the three enquiries into this matter, the Pickhard Commission, the Goldstone Commission and the CDF Board of Enquiry.  I know that the Pickhard Commission did not co-operate with and the CDF Board of Enquiry did not co-operate with, but Goldstone as well, all reject the possibility of an ambush.  You seem to be quite convinced that there was a clearly, carefully, intelligently planned ambush.  I would like to hear your comment on why these three enquiries have rejected that theory.
 The second question is on the question of the break-away led by, in your submission, by Mr Kasrils and Mr Hani.  You are aware that Mr Kasrils has been criticised by all these Commissions - Pickhard of course which you would expect because you did not submit to them but Goldstone as well, criticises Mr Kasrils almost individually for this break-away.
 Your submission to the Commission today is that this was an ANC position, thoroughly discussed, thoroughly canvassed and it was an implementation of an agreed upon strategy.  Did you submit this to Goldstone and why did Goldstone ignore it?  We will of course raise the question with him as well at a later date.

MR RHAMAPHOSA: Chairperson, Mr Ronnie Kasrils is sitting right next to me.  For some reason or other, he believes that his freedom of speech for the moment has been completely curtailed in this Commission and he is boiling inside and would like to respond to those two questions because he was much more directly involved with those two.  I don't know whether he is permitted or that should stand until he makes his own statement.

CHAIRPERSON: He will be speaking.  We suggest that he reduces his temperature.

MR RHAMAPHOSA: [indistinct] ... therefore with your permission possibly the two questions can then be answered when Ronnie Kasrils speaks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Rhamaphosa thank you very much for availing yourself to the Commission and for a very succinct and eloquent disposition.  We are grateful and the Commission allows you to stand down.

MR RHAMAPHOSA: I have -  thank you very much Chairperson, I have documents and a video tape that we would like to submit as evidence to the Commission.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 1 - 9 SEPTEMBER 1996

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Right you are.  Mr Ngonyama are you not remaining behind?  Order, order, order!  It's quite important, I mean I want to, I don't want to be too rough on you but I think it is important that we make quite clear that this is a Commission.
 It really is, it is important, it is important because when we make our findings, people mustn't say that the Commission has been swayed by, you know, and we need to, because there may come people whose views you do not particularly like and I have to protect them and would want us please to be, don't make our life more difficult than it is already.  I'm therefore making an appeal that though, whilst, I mean I understand your feelings and now and again I allow you to express them but on the whole, go to the stadium to hold the rally, this is a Commission.
 All right, I mean I don't want to be too rough on you.  I think I mean that on the whole you behave well but it is, it is important that people don't get the impression that we are being swayed.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Mr Ngonyama, again welcome and thank you very much for coming to the Commission.  You have also tabled a statement and without wanting to reduce your freedom of speech, I want to suggest that quite a lot, understandably quite a lot of the first part of your statement has already been referred to by Mr Rhamaphosa.
 Not quite as well as you've done it but nevertheless he has covered it.  What I would like to ask you to do and obviously you are free to do as you wish before the Commission but it would help us enormously in terms of time and in terms of our opportunity to actually ask you questions, if perhaps you could start your submission around about page seven which is paragraph 17 which actually starts with the march itself.  I think that's what the Commission really wants to hear from you because you were there, you played a leading role, you could give us information.
 We could read a great deal of documents and we will and we will have to, and I promise you we'll read your full submission as well and our researchers will go through it very carefully but if you could consider helping the Commission by starting there, I know we'd be very grateful and when you are ready, please start.  Thank you.