Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-29

FERDINAND BARNARD: The second meeting.

MR WESSELS: I see.  You also involved Brenda Mills.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I involved her in that I had problems with the observation and as I explained yesterday if we go to the shopping centre, the one that I loved to visit and we go out I would drive past with her and on the way back I would again drive past there to see if there were any movements at the house.

MR WESSELS: And you held these observations with your own vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No it was different vehicles.  Sometimes we drove with her vehicle and sometimes with mine.

MR WESSELS: Was this the vehicle that you received when you joined the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And the other vehicle, you said that was Brenda Mills' vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And the day when Dr Webster was killed did you decide on that day, today is the day, or was it just by coincidence that he was killed on that specific day?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson every single opportunity that Mr Botha and I went to the residence of Dr Webster I prepared the vehicle operationally by putting different registration numbers on.  The weapon was ready.  Then we would leave.  On that specific day, because it was Workers' Day, and a public holiday, I woke up that morning and thought maybe we should go and drive past there today and maybe we will see him.  I contacted Botha and I went to go and pick him up at his house and we drove to Webster's house.

MR WESSELS: So all that you did was you prepared the vehicle operationally?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, as if the job will be on on that day.

MR WESSELS: And what did you do to the vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I just changed the registration numbers.

MR WESSELS: So the same vehicle, the same colour, just with different registration numbers on?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.  There is a reason why I chose that vehicle.

MR WESSELS: And why did you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Because it was a very general, common vehicle.  The colour was white.  I made the comment yesterday with Janus Walus work, I think they made use of a red vehicle, now any policeman or somebody with a police background will tell you which vehicles will stand out and what colour will stand out.  If somebody is on a lookout and you are in a police vehicle and they tell you there is a white Golf or a Laser or Conquest they look the same as they drive past you, and every second one is a white one.  So there's a reason for that.  It creates confusion if you have to look out for it.

MR WESSELS: What was this vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was a Ford Laser.

MR WESSELS: Was this your vehicle, or was it Brenda Mills' vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes it was Brenda Mills' vehicle.

MR WESSELS: The same vehicle that you did the observation with?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I will not say that I observed with it, but I'd say we did drive past the house in her vehicle.

MR WESSELS: And that you put different registration plates on every single time?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No I did not.

MR WESSELS: Is it just the same ...(intervention)

FERDINAND BARNARD: Original number plates.

MR WESSELS: You used the originals, you had the originals and when you then drive with that vehicle you will put different registration numbers on.

FERDINAND BARNARD: For the operation I made a set of plates, the same as I did with the Advocate Omar case.  I will look for another vehicle while I am in my normal routine, a similar vehicle, the similar model, the similar colour, then I would take this vehicle's registration plates and I will make plates.  This is done for example if a normal policeman does an enquiry about a stolen vehicle there is evidence that it's not stolen and it will show that it is the same make and colour, but if somebody comes to look at the engine number or registration number they will realise that it's a different vehicle.

MR WESSELS: And upon how many occasions did you and Mr Botha drive past there?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Are you referring to the particular day or since the beginning?

MR WESSELS: Since the beginning.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Since the beginning I would say approximately four to five times.  I don't want to confine myself to a specific number but I would say five times until the incident took place.

MR WESSELS: And on the particular day?

FERDINAND BARNARD: On the particular day we departed for the residence and I explained that it was a one-way street.  We came from the top and drove past slowly, twice, possibly thrice we drove past, and then drove around and then came back later from the top again.  And then I decided that we would stop for a little while because we could not see the bakkie in which we had seen Dr Webster before.  We could not see the bakkie.  We decided to wait for a while and then the bakkie arrived from behind.

MR WESSELS: And did you foresee that you would use a disguise?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No the disguise that I would use would be the balaclava.  It was the best form of disguise.  All those stories of wigs that I wore and things like that are a myth.  I never did anything like that.  I later discovered that the person who compiled all these different identikits was someone from the Defence Force.  I thought it was something which was set-up by the CCB in order to create confusion.  I don't know to this day whether that was in fact the case.

MR WESSELS: And it was always foreseen that this would probably take place during the day?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The day?

MR WESSELS: Yes.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, not necessarily, I cannot say that.

MR WESSELS: Did you ever discuss these aspects with Lafras Luitingh and Joe Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Which aspects?

MR WESSELS: That you should be disguised.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir these people hired me as a murderer.  They hired me for my capacity to kill people, not for my capacity as an Intelligence Officer or a detective.  When they hired me they didn't want to see anything except the devilish streaks that I had in me.

MR WESSELS: So if you testified upon any occasion that you were hired or that you became a member of the CCB because you had contacts in the underworld and in the drug networks, then it would not be the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It is so.  I did it because that is where the original information came from, and if you look at the information that emanated from those sources that specific information was target-oriented information upon which the CCB acted abroad.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard when you commenced your evidence yesterday, in your evidence-in-chief you stated words to the effect that everything that has been said about you is the truth and then some and then some more.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you were serious when you said that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And it is the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It is the truth.

MR WESSELS: Willie Smit testified during your criminal trial before Judge Els, isn't that so?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And he told Judge Els what you told him and when I say that you told him things I mean that you made certain admissions regarding the death of Dr Webster.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes it was one of his versions thereof

MR WESSELS: And Judge Els accepted his evidence.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot say that, I don't know.  I did not read Judge Els' judgment.  I was in C-Max.

MR WESSELS: Well the decision is here and his evidence was accepted.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot comment on that.   There was also another Judge who rejected his evidence, Judge Stegmann, on a previous occasion after he began to speak in a very confusing way during cross-examination and basically contradicted everything that had been said.