Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Ms Tsemane, can I just interpose for a minute.  But Mr Mbandazayo, my understanding is that no allegation specifically has been made about Mr Pitso, why are you dragging him into this?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm coming to that point.  I think at page, where it was said that he was used both these people, Mr Pitso and Mbele Bhele were used, they had football clubs and they were rivals.  I'm still going - so they were used by them.  So that's what I'm trying to get at.

ADV SANDI: Pitso was in rivalry with who?

MR MBANDAZAYO: According to the record, it's page ...(indistinct), Chairman.  At page 177, second paragraph
"Ms Tsemane.  The places you were always at Mbele Bhele and Pitso where I saw you most of the time, do you know that all these people had football clubs?  That is why I say to you they were using you for their aims."

MR LAX: Actually there though it doesn't relate to her father, it relates to the rivalry between Mbele Bhele and Pitso, if I understand that testimony correctly.  So ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm sorry, with respect the record does not reflect exactly what, in fact it doesn't even make sense, this thing which is here, according to my recollection and my notes.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but even so, that was not her testimony, that was questioning.  She was questioning Makuala.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no testimony by her about this.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, there is no testimony about this, but one would like, definitely it was put to a witness, to testimony, that there was something.

MR LAX: Mr Mbandazayo, couldn't you draw whatever inferences you want to in argument in relation to this matter and just leave it be?  It's up to - I don't want to tell you how to run your client's case, but the witness may have put something then never testified about it and now you want to bring it back in in viva voce evidence.  Look it's up to you, I think you must ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR NAUDE: I haven't got any questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NAUDE

ADV PRIOR: Can I maybe be permitted just to ask one question?
	Ms Tsemane you will notice that Mr Naude is here as a result of investigation of allegations that you made at the last hearing, Mr Hatting was present, do you know Mr Hatting, have you had any dealings with Mr Hatting in the Sterkspruit area?

MS TSEMANE: No, I only know Mr Hatting, I'm sure he's the son, he's not the old man that I saw today.

ADV PRIOR: Okay.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, and thank you for having come here again.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Chairman, may I just have a moment, there's just one aspect that she wants to clarify with me.    If I may just have a moment with her?
NO SOUND

ADV PRIOR: ... arising out of that discourse that needs to be placed before you and Ms Tsemane may be excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV PRIOR: Yes, that's the evidence, Mr Chairman, arising out of that allegation.  May I possibly just make it abundantly clear that Mr Hatting's presence, or notice was given to him as I've explained earlier, arising out of the possible inference that possibly may be drawn or which could have been drawn from any evidence which indicated that Mr Buyafuti or Mr Tsembeye was in some way implicated, and it was for that reason only that we as the Amnesty Department felt that in fairness to Mr Hatting, he should be given proper and timeous notice.
	Obviously the overview given by Mr Mather sets the record straight and puts it in perspective.  There's no direct allegation, there's no direct evidence against Mr Hatting.

ADV SANDI: It was just - as I understand it, Mr Prior, it was all perceptions and rumours?

ADV PRIOR: It was certainly the feeling of the community at the time based on what was going on, and obviously in a situation of that nature there were perceptions abounding and there were obviously speculations and there was rumour.  Obviously we had to discharge a duty placed upon us, that if he possibly was implicated we had to give him notice.  In fact it was indicated to Mr Naude that Mr Hatting did not have to attend, but that he had to just take cognisance of the fact that he may possibly be implicated.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we hear argument, could I indicate on behalf of the Committee, Mr Naude, that subject of course to anything we may have said to us, we do not intend to make any finding implicating Mr Hatting in any way.

MR NAUDE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, may I then be excused at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it, Mr Prior, you are not going to advance any argument in that regard?

ADV PRIOR: No, Mr Chairman.  And I take it you are not either?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, no, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may then be excused.

MR NAUDE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF