Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I said quite clearly that while we were dealing with Oliphant - so we're talking about him, that I was going to put questions about him.

ADV MEMANI: It seems my mind was not the only one who was lost.

MR STANDER: I'll put it in greater detail.  I'm now going to ask questions about the Oliphant case.  I have no further questions about the death of George Musi.
	Is it true Mr Motsamai, that when the group arrived, Mr Oliphant and Mr Makhubalo had been identified as the leaders of this group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR STANDER: Do you know what happened to these leaders, were they interrogated separately - separate from the rest of the group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When we reported for duty when we received the information as to whether where they were arrested and where they were going from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, they said to us we should assault these people so that we should dig information from them.  We went to the 5th floor, there is a board written -  when you enter the door there is a board which is written, Violent Street.  It's a long passage, it would start at my back to - it would pass through the wall.  We made them to do frog jumps ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to estimate that distance

MR STANDER: I didn't see the distance that was being shown.  I would say that's about correct.
	Tell me, these leaders, were they members of the same group that was being interrogated?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No English translation.

MR STANDER: Isn't it so Mr Motsamai, that the two leaders - in other words, Mr Oliphant and Mr Makhubalo, they were taken to different offices because they had been identified as the leaders?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.  They were taken to the investigative unit's officers which dealt MK, ANC and APLA, that is at 4th floor.

MR STANDER: Tell me, did you ever take part in the assaults of either Mr Oliphant or Mr Makhubalo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I took part when they were in the 5th floor.  On the 4th floor, they were assaulted by others.

MR STANDER: Could you tell us broadly what kind of assault took place while you were present?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The first instance was that one at Violent Street where they would do frog jumps, all of them would do that.  It wouldn't matter as whether it's a woman or a man.  At that time whilst they were doing the frog jumps, the one who says he's tired or she says she's tired, he should be assaulted with a clap - an open hand and be kicked.

MR STANDER: How long did the assault take place, did it last the whole day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, it didn't take the whole day.  That is where we took Oupa Makhubalo, myself and Sergeant Mamome, we took him to Mamome's office, we tightened his hands at the back, we put him on the chair, Sergeant Mamome took a tube and made him to suffocate.  When we say he suffocated him, it's not on the neck but we would put it on the face and we'd make it impossible for him to inhale and exhale.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] you did this to?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We did this to Oupa Makhubalo.

MR STANDER: What the reason for this assault on Makhubalo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The reason was to dig information from him as to whether who was responsible because we took a long time searching for them, then we asked him who was hiding him and who was giving him food the time they were in hiding and then again as to whether who was making them to escape the country because when they were crossing the border, that person was the person who had contacts in Lesotho with the MK.

MR STANDER: Tell me, were you present when Mr China Oliphant was assaulted?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I was not present, he was on the 4th floor.

MR STANDER: At any stage, could people's screaming be heard while assaults were being done to this group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we were able to hear people screaming from the 4th floor if they made a mistake that the window of that officer where they were torturing the people, it was opened.

MR STANDER: What happened after the assaults on the first day to this group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: After the assault of Oupa Makhubalo, he was taken by the people of the floor under us, which was the 4th floor.  In that assault we were given instructions to do by all means that when we were going to detain them - there is a big book which was used by the police called - that it should not be written in that book that they were assaulted or tortured.  They were taken to ...[inaudible] stations.

MR STANDER: Tell me, previously you said that for each of these persons there was a file, was the fact that these people had been detained, noted in this file?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, each and everyone who was there who were trying to skip the country, had files and their files would differ in size depending on the information from when he began to be a member of COSAS, UDF or MYKO.

MR STANDER: Do you know whether they were brought back the next day to be assaulted again?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before my learned friend goes to the next question, I suspect that there could have been a misunderstanding.  The question was asked whether the fact that people who were assaulted, was noted in the file and the answer was yes, everybody who was interrogated had a file and I wonder whether the "yes" referred to confirming that a note was made of the assault in the files.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood the question, it was everybody who was detained.

MR STANDER: That is in fact so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was not if everyone who was assaulted was noted in the file, but if everyone who was detained.

INTERPRETER: May we ask Mr Memani to repeat the question because there has been a little confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a perfectly simple question, why do you say it will raise confusion?  You weren't listening to it obviously, or are you saying it was wrongly interpreted?

INTERPRETER: It's the interpreters who's saying there's been a little confusion in the booth.

ADV MEMANI: It's the interpreter speaking to you now.

INTERPRETER: We ask if the question should be repeated.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I thing that should be cleared.  Did you say that the fact that people were assaulted was noted in their files?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, in those security files you would not write the torture, you'd write the information from them if we're able to find that information.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it now - are you satisfied Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

MR STANDER: The question I put to you was whether this group had been brought back another day or were they released the same day - what happened, what was the position?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were not released, they were brought there in the offices frequently.  And again I'll try to explain to the Committee, I don't know as whether they were detained under Section 29 of the Security Legislation because that decision was taken by the above officers.  The Colonel would make a decision about who should be detained under section 29 - if I'm not mistaken, there is a certain section of the Security Legislation which is for 14 days, I think it's Section 54 - I don't know as whether they detained under Section 54 or Section 29.

MR STANDER: Did you take part in the subsequent days assaults on any of these groups?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I didn't take part because they were now under control of unit - Captain du Plooy's unit.  If I'm not mistaken, it was Constable Mafisa, Constable Melesi and others.

MR STANDER: Did you see them again after the first day's event in which you were involved?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you please repeat that question?