Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

UNKNOWN: No, to me.  Whilst he was in Gaberone he told me that he had to go to Zambia, specifically Lusaka for further training.  The ANC apparently already knew at that time that he was one of our informers and he told me that on the boat crossing the Zambezi River, they assaulted him and broke his arm.  He was taken to Quatro Camp where he was further detained and tortured.  As a result of the above the whole plan went awry and I later learned from the newspaper that the bomb the bomb exploded unplanned.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you stop there, unplanned, what do you mean by that?

UNKNOWN: By that I mean that the bomb exploded without Mnisi or any of the other two being in the vehicle.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you have any knowledge of exactly how the bomb exploded?

UNKNOWN: I don't but I have a suspicion which I can express here, that what happened, the bomb exploded when the secret compartment was opened and the light sensor was activated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But you don't know exactly?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you continue with that middle paragraph?

UNKNOWN: After the bomb had exploded the number of the plates of the vehicle were traced by the Botswana Police and in this way it became known that the vehicle was Mackenzie's vehicle.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier perhaps just continue with the last paragraph.

UNKNOWN: I remember when the bomb exploded in Gaberone, there were a lot of headlines in the newspaper and CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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the Botswana Government made objections to the South African Government and the Foreign Minister, Pik Botha at the time alleged that Mackenzie was a member of the ANC and had blown himself up with the vehicle.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier could we stop there for a moment before we continue.  Was there any report back to you about this operation?

UNKNOWN: No, the operation was actually Brigadier Loots's affair and I just assisted in the whole operation.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, in relation to the exploding of the bomb, what was the actual target for the explosion?

UNKNOWN: It was Mnisi, Pulu and Demakudu.

ADV DU PLESSIS: According to the planning, would the bomb have exploded if civilians could be injured in the vicinity?

UNKNOWN: No not at all.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Would the bomb have exploded if unknown people were in the vicinity?

UNKNOWN: No that was not part of the planning.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the Special Forces agent, was he in Gaberone?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The person operating the remote control?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was he the person who would have operated the remote control, in other words would he decide when the bomb was to explode?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Yes he had photographs of these people and he would only explode the bomb if they were there.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you turn to the next page, page 160.

UNKNOWN: There's no doubt that Minister Botha must have known what the true situation was, it was essential to CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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eliminate Mnisi, not neutralise, eliminate because he was the main planner of many of these operations in the RSA, and had planned numerous acts of terror and also executed these, I've already dealt with this above. 
	This action was also taken during a time when there was a situation of total onslaught or war in the country and it was general policy in respect of ANC terrorists, especially those responsible for serious acts of terror, to eliminate these. It was also in line with the pro-active conduct of the defence force and was also in line with the general instructions from Brigadier Victor and Brigadier Schoon and furthermore, also that General van der Merwe approved of these plans.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you please turn to page 161, you say paragraph B, could you please read it?

UNKNOWN: I am not aware whether anybody was killed or injured in the explosion, as far as I can recall there were reports that somebody was killed.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Right page 162, from 162 onwards to page 167 you set out the general political motive, do you confirm that as correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And page 167, the last paragraph, please read the last paragraph on that page.

UNKNOWN: The objectives were to, in respect of Demakudu, Pulu and  Mnisi, to eliminate these because they were involved in several acts of terror, inter alia, bomb explosions and the death of seven innocent people.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Page 168, please read that.

UNKNOWN: It was essential to eliminate them and it was also essential in view of the situation of war which existed CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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in the country. It was war and elimination was part of the battle against the ANC/SACP, and others who wanted to topple the government. No other steps were possible against Mnisi apart from eliminating him.  He couldn't be arrested because he was in Botswana and there was no other legal way in which we could act against him.  The only way to effectively neutralise him would be to eliminate him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could I take you to page 156?  I want to take you to the heading which reads
Motor bomb explosion in Gaberone in Botswana and possible death of members of the public.
Do you have any personal knowledge of the question about who or whether anybody had been killed or injured?  Were you personally aware of any such fact?

UNKNOWN: No, only what I read in the newspapers.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you have any personal knowledge whether these were members of the public?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

HASSAN MALL: You say that Mnisi was a resident of Swaziland, was he a South African citizen?

UNKNOWN: Botswana.

HASSAN MALL: Botswana.

UNKNOWN: Yes Chairperson he was a South African but he had gone to live in Botswana.

HASSAN MALL: To your knowledge was any inquiry held after the explosion of this bomb?

UNKNOWN: I think there was, I think there was an investigation by the Botswana Police.
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HASSAN MALL: And do you know what the outcome of that inquiry was?

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know what happened to Mackenzie?

UNKNOWN: Yes Chairperson, Mackenzie, after the negotiations were over and people started coming back he came back from Lusaka and I spoke to him again. I also heard that Mackenzie was killed in a gang fight in Eersterus in Pretoria a couple of months ago.

ADV DE JAGER: In the heading you say that the probable injury and deaths of members of the public when the bomb was planted.

UNKNOWN: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you refer here at the stage when the bomb was planted, do you refer to the fact that you foresaw possible deaths of members of the public or do you mean that as a result of what later happened that it was probable that people would be killed?

UNKNOWN: That it could probably happen but it wasn't part of the planning.

ADV DE JAGER: It wasn't something that you foresaw, it wasn't an objective.

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand it the bomb was in a secret compartment that was used to smuggle explosives or firearms.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So it is extremely unlikely that anybody would have opened that in the presence of members of the public?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe do you have any questions?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Sir, just one.  What is the name of the agent from Spesmagte, the one who had the remote control?

UNKNOWN: I really don't know it was one of Charl Naude's people, so I really don't know what his name was.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

HASSAN MALL: Was he not a member of the security force?

UNKNOWN: It is possible that he was one of Charl Naude's subordinates, that is possible.