Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-28

MS WILD: I'd just like to direct to you the fact that I've spoken to Ms Hudson, she's the young lady who is sitting behind me here, she's 17.  She never really knew her father, but she would like to thank you for being as frank as you have been and she'd like to indicate that she does feel willing to forgive you, that's at this stage you, she's hasn't heard your colleague yet.  Thank you.

PUMZILE MAYAPI: Thank you.  I am so thankful that she understands the fact that this was not aimed at her father.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wild.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I will be brief.
	Mr Mayapi,  you state in paragraph 8.2 of your application, not of your application, sorry, of your supplementary affidavit, that the place was reconnoitred or:
"We reconnoitred the place three days before the operation"
Does "we" include you and who else?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: I am referring to myself, my colleague, Ndibulele and my late colleague China.

MS PATEL: On what basis was the toilet chosen as a spot on which to plant the bomb or the limpet mine?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: As I'm saying, after the reconnaissance was done we, during the reconnaissance we realised that at least this toilet was not as frequented, there was a great possibility that during the explosion there would be no-one in that toilet.  There was that possibility.
	Secondly, there was no other way of getting right into the casino as we were not workers or employers there.  We wouldn't be seen in the other corners of this casino without being suspected.

MS PATEL: But this was a public toilet, Sir, on what basis do you say that there was no possibility that no-one would be in the toilet at the time that the bomb was predetermined to go off at?  I mean you say you set the bomb, the time you left the bomb there was 7 o'clock and it was timed to go off three hours afterwards, which is 11 o'clock, which in terms of I guess casino operational times, it would still be fairly early and there would still be people around.

PUMZILE MAYAPI: That is why I say we made note, we reconnoitred the place and we realised that at least at about 10 o'clock the casino is not as busy as at 7 or 8 o'clock.  That is what we learnt during the reconnaissance.

MS PATEL: Did you at the time when you placed the limpet mine, reconcile yourself with the possibility that people might be injured?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: Yes, it is so, there would be people there.  I wish that you can understand this situation.  Say for instance a person who is going to attack the police station, when he arrives there as a cadre of an organisation, when he gets in that police station and it so happens that unfortunately there are civilians who are there to lodge their complaints, they get affected.  Shortly, or briefly I want to say it is not easy in a war situation to act with caution because it is a situation that is always full of uncertainty, you cannot be that accurate.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you, Mr Mayapi.  I just wish to inform you that the person whom I'm assisting at this hearing, Mrs Dlamini, is the mother of the caretaker of that specific part of the casino and it is a tragedy that the person or the people whom you say you had hoped to uplift, were in fact the victims of your act.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel.  Has the Panel any questions?  Mr Ntanunu, any re-examination?

MR NTANUNU: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you very much.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NTANUNU

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want Mr Mayapi to be excused?

MR NTANUNU: No, Honourable Chair, I wouldn't like Mr Mayapi to be excused because I just want to Mr Ndzamela to take an oath and just lead him so that we get excused ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean from the witness stand, for the moment.

MR NTANUNU: Oh, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll excuse him from the witness stand, not from the proceedings.

MR NTANUNU: Sorry, sorry, Mr Chair,  yes of course, yes of course.  Thank you, Honourable Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED