Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR WILLS: Yes.    I am wanting to get your role, is it your version that because there is - the Vlakplaas people were infiltrating on a direct basis into this so-called cell, that you people just stood back and did nothing?  When I refer to you, I am not in this instance referring to Mr Botha, I am referring to the lower ranking policemen, that is you, Mr du Preez and Mr Wasserman and obviously Mr Basson?  What did you do?  I mean you are involved in this big operation, you brought askaris down from Jo'burg, surely you must have played some sort of role prior to her arrest, I am wanting to know what that role was.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In regard with what Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: In regard to the operation concerning Ms Khubeka, what Mr Wills is saying is Vlakplaas were called in, C1,  particularly for the use of the askari contingent to infiltrate.  Now prior to the day of the arrest, because we know that this infiltration took place over some period of time, what Mr Wills wants to know is what was your role and people of your rank, he has mentioned Mr Wasserman, Mr du Preez, Mr Basson, what did you do once C1 moved in, did you have anything to do with the operation actively and if so, what was it?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: If I can recall correctly, there were other informants and I think as Mr Lax has just said, we were busy with other operations as well, so I cannot recall where we would have concentrated specifically on the Khubeka matter.  I cannot say specifically what we would have done after the C1 members had been sent in.

MR WILLS: You see what I would have thought would have been the case, and it is up to you to correct me, I would have thought that what would have happened would have been that the C1 people, because they were also black people, would have been brought in to infiltrate because obviously it would have been quite difficult for a white person to do that at the time, and they would have acted as if they were guerrillas from outside, they would have collected information and then they would have come back and shared the information with either yourselves or just Mr Botha and then as a result of that information, Mr Botha would have issued certain instructions to his other people and by that I mean yourself, du Preez and Wasserman?

MR VISSER: Like what Mr Chairman?

MR WILLS: Like for example to help interrogate the woman?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't understand now.

MR VISSER: My learned friend is putting questions as to what happened prior to the incident, now he is at the incident, when he is challenged to tell the witness what he expected him to do, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I couldn't quite follow that Mr Wills, because ...

MR WILLS: What I am just trying to establish is that I cannot see, the strange thing about this operation to be frank with me, is that the only thing from the evidence so far, that you, du Preez and Wasserman are brought to do, is to assist with the interrogation, apart from that you do nothing?

CHAIRPERSON: The detention, the arrest and only on the day in question.

MR WILLS: Only on the day in question?  There is this big, important operation going on, there is a dearth of silence with respect about your role until the day in question when you arrest her and you torture her to her death, and apart from that, you are completely silent about what your involvement is and I want to know what your prior involvement was.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall what my prior involvement was in the investigation, as I have said, members of C1 was sent in to infiltrate her, we did not undertake surveillance on the house that I can recall, I was never involved in any surveillance on her house.  We were busy with other operations.  I cannot what other involvement I had before the arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have had any involvement?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I believe we would have been briefed about what C1's members had reported back to Botha.

MR LAX: If you allow me Chairperson, the impression that I get and you can help me here if I am wrong, is that you weren't really involved in this operation in the sense that it was an operation.  The impression I get is that, certainly from what you are saying, you cannot remember anything, all you really remember is a briefing and then you participated in an arrest.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I recall the information that Ms Khubeka was involved with these persons, with a cell and that members of C1 had infiltrated her and from there, my involvement with her personally started with the arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, I would just like to get some general information Mr van der Westhuizen, the Durban Security Branch, we have heard of various names here, Mr du Preez, Wasserman and yourself, Botha, how large was at that period, the Durban Security Branch, are we talking about 100 members, 200 members or was it just a small unit of half a dozen members?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Durban Security Branch was a large Branch.  There were approximately 200 members or 150 members.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you operate, did you always operate under the same person or ...

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had units, you had sections?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: All the names that we have heard now in this hearing of the Durban Security Branch, were all members of a particular section?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Within the larger ...

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Just to clarify this, for the Chair's sake, you were part of the Intelligence section of the Terrorist Unit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: How many other members were in that section with you, besides the ones that we have heard about so far?  Let me help you, you had Botha who was Head of your Unit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Then you had du Preez?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Who else was on that same rank level?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There were no other, it was Botha, du Preez, Wasserman, myself, Basson although he was from Port Shepstone, he also brought in MK Intelligence.

MR LAX: Did you only work on MK cases or did you work on PAC cases, APLA cases as well?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, there was another section who handled PAC.

MR LAX: Okay, so that is that, the five of you basically?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just take that a bit further please Mr Chairperson.   Mr van der Westhuizen, that Sunday afternoon when you received the briefing, was the whole section on duty or were you specifically  called there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: As in this instance, if such an operation would be launched, they would call us in.  I think I was specifically busy at C.R. Swart with something else when this happened, I cannot recall that I was specifically called in for that on that day.

ADV BOSMAN: But usually all six of you would not be on duty?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, just to assist perhaps, it was Botha, du Preez, Wasserman, van der Westhuizen, Basson and Brand Visagie, there were six.

ADV BOSMAN: And Taylor?

MR VISSER: No, no, Taylor wasn't in this unit.

CHAIRPERSON: It is just the six.

MR VISSER: Just the six.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you.   Talking about the arrest, now the actual arrest, we know that you were involved, we know that Mr Botha was involved, we know that Mr du Preez was involved, it is common cause, I think that Basson was involved?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Was there anybody else involved, I am talking about in your car, I know obviously there is dispute about who was in the other car, in Mbane's car, I am talking about your car?