Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

MR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, remember this is a - in fact this was the final Co-ordinating Management Committee, it didn't have a function any further.  With regards to the project, that component had been completed.  By this time the discussion about the documents and about the control over them and about the demarche and about the position of Dr Basson was at the level of Government.  I have said to you that we discussed this after the briefing I had from National Intelligence, along with Mr Coetzee, we discussed it during the demarche with the President, with the Chief of the Defence Force at that time, General Meiring, and with the Minister.  That was already in February '94.  After the election we had to wait quite a while before they had the opportunity to brief Mr Mandela and Mr Mbeki and Mr Modise, Mr Kasrils, that had been done in August '94.  At that stage both I myself and Mr Mike Kennedy as you see from his own affidavit had regular meetings with the President and the Deputy President together and separately, and we had discussions, some of which were formal discussions of which minutes were produced, some were informal discussions.  And the main issue then, as I explained in my affidavit, was to deal with the demarche because this had international relations implications and proliferation implications, and to deal with Basson separately.  And we did, we did - at that meeting when I briefed President Mandela, we discussed the position of Dr Basson personally, and at that point we had agreed, both I and National Intelligence informed President Mandela, in front of President De Klerk that his initial dismissal founded on or based on the Steyn Report, was in fact an unfair dismissal, he had never been charged with anything, he'd never been given a chance to give an explanation.  He should have been given that opportunity, or he should have been placed in a position where he could be questioned properly.  The only persons who had any dealing with Basson directly was myself and Mr Kennedy of National Intelligence.  And on the basis of what he said to the President they had agreed to satisfy the concerns of the Americans and the British, to re-apply him on permanent basis.  For that we had to apply to the Commission for Administration to do that, because a person who is on pension cannot just simply be taken back on a permanent appointment.  The Commission for Administration took almost a year before they acceded to our recommendation - in fact Mr Mbeki personally had to go and see the Commission for Administration in order to be able to get him re-appointed.
 So concerned were they about the control over Dr Basson, over his movements and so on.  But the point that I'm trying to make, Mr Vally, is all of us, I put it in my affidavit, at that point everything I knew, everything that I was concerned about was shared with the President and the Minister and the Chief of Defence Force.  It was not any longer at the level of a Co-ordinating Management Committee to make a decision.  So from the point of view of what they could have done at this which turned out to be the last meeting, was nothing, it was rather at the level of the Chief of Defence Force, the Minister and the President.

MR VALLY: Well, let's look at annexure J3, the minutes of the Co-ordinating Committee meeting of the 2nd of December 1994.  If you look at paragraph 3 there, on the 2nd of December 1994 this Co-ordinating Committee again approves payment ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: Just hang on a second.

MR VALLY: Sorry, I beg your pardon.

MR KNOBEL: I'm not - yes, I've got it, thank you.

MR VALLY: 2nd of December 1994, paragraph 3, it says, Brigadier Basson's claim in respect of travel and living expenses was discussed, he explained that he had to travel business class because he had to make travel arrangements at short notice and the meeting accepted as reasonable his claim of R240 000.  This is now 2nd of December 1994, a further       R240 000 is paid to him.

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Any documentation provided by him?

MR KNOBEL: Yes, there is documentation which I believe is still available and which has been made available to the Office of Serious Economic Offences.

MR VALLY: Because there is no reference to it here in this meeting.

MR KNOBEL: No but it was available, I assure you, the travelling documents and so on, they still have it.

MR VALLY: So the R240 000 for travelling and living expenses is justified?

MR KNOBEL: No, sir, no, no, no, this refers to the document that you showed me the other day about the 75 000 US Dollar loan from Passload Flights, do you remember, we discussed it then?

MR VALLY: You see there - yes, we did talk about it, that's TRC 28.

MR KNOBEL: Which were expenses incurred somewhat earlier that the date referred to.

MR VALLY: But that was 7th of May 1994, and that had to do with 75 000 US Dollars that had been advanced to him.

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And he was justifying the bribes ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: That had to be paid back though.

MR VALLY: ... in Chad and bribes in Cameroon, etc.  Again no documentation there.  This R250 000 seems to be different, this is a claim for R250 000 as opposed to TRC 28, 7th of May 1994 which was a justification for 75 000 US Dollars which had been paid in advance to him.

MR KNOBEL: Which had to be paid back though.

MR VALLY: Well, no, he did have to pay it back, but he said he spent it.

MR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, the question that you're asking is that at this date in December '94 we are still approving money being paid.

MR VALLY: Large sums of money.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, that's true, but the point is, in January - I beg your pardon, in March '93 when he went onto pension, he was kept involved in the project in a part-time capacity as a Citizen Force Officer to clarify certain issues around the Croatian transaction as well as accounts that had to be closed in Europe, which he was the only person that had signatory rights, etc, etc, and that was approved by the Chief of Defence Force.  And all the expenses that had been incurred during that period, as well as the expenses that had been incurred when he had to appear in court in Switzerland, etc, were reflected, as far as I can recall, at this meeting.  Again if you will see the Chief of Staff Finance and Brigadier Koertzen was asked to attend this meeting because they were the persons who knew the details of the financial aspects and had to advise the Committee on it.
 As far as I can recall, this is what this refers to and again I assure you that the expenses that he incurred and the documentation to that effect is still in existence.  Those are the only documents that have not been destroyed, are financial documents.  In terms of the Companies Act you cannot destroy financial documents, and there are 14 trunks of D John Truter's financial documents that have been made available to the Office of Serious Economic Offences in order to help them unravel this.

CHAIRPERSON: This should be a convenient stage for us to take a tea adjournment, Mr Valley.

MR VALLY: Could I just put one thing on record before we take the tea adjournment, Mr Chair.  General Knobel, in your affidavit to you us you did ask us to call Mr Mike Kennedy.  He has subsequently submitted an affidavit to us, I understand that you are satisfied with the contents of the affidavit.  Do you still require him to be called?

MR KNOBEL: I would certainly like that affidavit to be read into the record, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: You want the entire affidavit to be read into the record, or to be taken as - as given as forming part of the record.

MR KNOBEL: No, if I may request that it be read in, it's not a long document, it can be read in very quickly.