Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That logically sounds very ridiculous to me.  I know nothing about it and I don't know of incidents where boys were forced to join the club.  That was not my understanding of how they functioned.

MR SEMENYA: Then Ma'am, we have also heard the evidence of Paul Erasmus around the disinformation that was circulated around the time.  What do you know about this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that time, I did not have official information about STRATCOM.  All I knew at that time, was that there was this machinery used by the State to discredit the African National Congress and that I had been targeted for that.

MR SEMENYA: What type of stories were made in the media about you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There was very negative reporting.  As a matter of fact, the negative reporting which started then has culminated to where we are today.  That is why when no one owned the document which purported from the Crisis Committee, I personally believed that it had STRATCOM connections because we knew, at least I knew at the time, that there were reporters who alleged to be working with the police, who were in fact planted by the police, by the Security Branch in the media.

MR SEMENYA: Was there any truth about these allegations and stories that were written about you for instance ... (tape ends)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Reporters like Thandi Khubule, reporters like Norma Venda, who were alleged to be associated with the police at that time.  I then concluded that they must be STRATCOM reports.

MR SEMENYA: Well, I must put it that was there any truth to the allegation that you would have had a relationship with the Archbishop?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I hope he didn't hear that.  It is as ludicrous as it sounds now.  There were pamphlets all over Soweto and a large number of them, dumped in my house which was under construction at the time.  There was a photograph of myself and him.
 I think it was one of the occasions when I attended a meeting and he hugged me as he does here every day.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk about Lerothodi Ikaneng.  Did you order that he must be killed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave no such an order, it is ludicrous to suggest that.

MR SEMENYA: Now, part of the explanation which is offered for the killing of Dr Asvat, is that he would have been killed because he had advised you that the medical condition of Stompie required him to be taken to hospital.  Was there such a discussion between you and the Doctor?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Evidence has been led here by the very people who are supposed to have been subjected to these atrocities, by myself.  They themselves have confirmed that they were not seen by Dr Asvat.
 I did not take any of those boys to Dr Asvat, nor did he come home to visit them and examine them.

MR SEMENYA: And there was an allegation of an altercation between you and Dr Asvat, is this correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is one of those hallucinations I have heard here for the first time.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is one of those hallucinations I have heard here for the first time.  I could have never entered into any arguments with Dr Asvat.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Vincent Siphako?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have heard here that Vincent Siphako is the person I knew as comrade V.

MR SEMENYA: He would have died in a car accident?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.  Comrade V died in a car accident.

MR SEMENYA: It is said that his death was then revenged, I think that is the connotation that comes, by the members of the Mandela United Football Club.  Do you know anything about this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is the most ridiculous suggestion I heard here.  Firstly he had no direct communication with the boys who were in my premises, except those who were couriers.

MR SEMENYA: We have also heard the evidence of Thamisa Tswayo.  Did you know him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not know him.

MR SEMENYA: Phumsile Dlamini, the lady who testified and said you had assaulted her, did you know her?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recollected seeing her face when I saw her here, otherwise I did not know her, so I did not even remember her face when her name was put across to me.

MR SEMENYA: The evidence of Pelo Mekgwe, he is one of the gentlemen that was with you at a press conference, can you tell us what were the circumstances, how did you make contact with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He telephoned me from the base in Port Elizabeth.  He said that he was very concerned about the reports he was seeing in the media and he wanted to be put through to my lawyers, to assist me in clearing those perceptions.
 At that stage, I think it was in all the papers, that I was to be subpoenaed by the Truth Commission.

MR SEMENYA: And part of the rumour that was circulating at the time, is that you would have facilitated his escape out of the country.  Did you do this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not do so, as he testified himself, to that effect.

MR SEMENYA: And speaking about leaving the country, did you help Katiza Cebekhulu to evade the cause of justice and leave the country?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not.

MR SEMENYA: Katiza said at length to be describing how you would have made an ultimatum to him that if he did not leave the country, you would kill him.  What is your response to this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As far as I am concerned, Katiza is a mental patient and he would have hallucinated like that, there was nothing like that.  That is pure fabrication on his part.

MR SEMENYA: And in pertinent details he says that he saw you stab Stompie with a object, twice.  What is your response to that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well the murderer of Stompie testified himself to the effect that that is ludicrous.

MR SEMENYA: What was your understanding of the circumstances that led to the mass democratic movement distance, making a national call that democratic formations must distance themselves from you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is the question?

MR SEMENYA: What was your understanding of issues at the time when the MDM called that democratic formations must distance themselves from you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My understanding was that in fact they based that on the perceptions surrounding myself and the Football Club at the time.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Susan Maripa?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not know Susan Maripa.

MR SEMENYA: Peter Dlamini?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know Peter Dlamini.

MR SEMENYA: Speaking about this, how did you address the young men that were staying in your house?  Was it with their full names and if not, why not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I addressed them with their nicknames for their own security.  As I have stated earlier most of them were on the run from the Security Forces for one thing or another and it was safer for all of us to know them by nickname.

MR SEMENYA: And were there any MK's that were staying in the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How could any cadre stay in a police station.  My house was virtually a police station.

MR SEMENYA: What was the arrangement at the house though, were any of these young men living inside the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, they lived in their own back room, a little hut which was there.

MR SEMENYA: And did they leave and come on your instructions as we are told ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, if you could just help, sorry to interrupt you, saying the house which - it will be just a help if you said Orlando West, the new or the old and Diepkloof.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  Maybe let us describe the houses.   The Orlando West house, what type of house was this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was originally a two roomed house which I have partitioned and it has back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: Where was  Zinzi's bedrooms?