bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: Mrs Mabalane I am going to stop at this moment and ask if my fellow Commissioners and Committee members would like to ask some questions.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I would like to ask you about Zero Thebe.  Have you ever known what his real name was?

MS MABALANE: His name is Zero.  His name is Zoro.  Yes, it is written Zero.  I do not know his surname.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So you don't know his surname?   OK we will leave that question out then.
The people who came to fetch Frida at home, were they youths or were they adults?

MS MABALANE: They were youths.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Do you know if they were school children or
just youths who were roaming the streets?

MS MABALANE: No, I do not know because they had their copper heads on.

THOMAS MANTHATA: These young people do you know which organization they belonged to as it was said there they were Civic Associations and other organizations.

MS MABALANE: No, we never knew.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Seemingly, there was an organization by the name of UDF.  Did those youths belong to the UDF?

MS MABALANE: Yes, they belonged to the UDF.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I will return to the name, Zero Thebe.  Was he also a member of the UDF?

MS MABALANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: After this incidence I see here you said there was a family friend, called Louis Manyedi.

MS MABALANE: Yes, he was my uncle.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did he continue to visit your family after this incidence?
MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
7 P MABALANE

MS MABALANE: No, he never did, because he became ill thereafter and now he has passed away.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Was there a court case after the death?  Did you know who was handling the court case at the police station?

MS MABALANE: It was Sergeant Mogatsha.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Mabalane I'm going to repeat what Dr Randera has asked you.  Have you any idea why they have killed Frida?

MS MABALANE: I think it was because my uncle was a
policeman.  The two of my uncles were policemen.  Now I think they killed her because they thought she was related to two policemen.

MS SEROKE: So they have accused her of staying with policemen?

MS MABALANE: Yes, even if she went to the meetings she would be told that she was a spy.

MS SEROKE: What do you request from the Truth Commission with regards to this matter?

MS MABALANE: I would liked to be helped with my house.

MS SEROKE: Did they burn your house?

MS MABALANE: No.   I'm staying with my Granny.  I do not have a place to stay and I would like to have a house of my own together with my children.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Mabalane we have listened to your horrific story. We don't know if we will listen to the testimony from Dipho, but we want to thank you that you came to the Commission to tell us the pain that you have been through and the heavy burden that is still inside you.  We will request God to be with you in this time of trouble and would MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
8 P MABALANE
ask Him to console you.  We don't have those powers, the Commission, but we are going to try and see whether there is any way we can help you.  We want to thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: My last question.  Where were all these other pellets?

THABISO MOLALE: They were not there on the first day that I arrived at the hospital.

DR RANDERA: You say you were a very injured person.  Where were all the other pellets that were removed from your body?  You say you've only got one left in you head.  Where were all the other pellets?

THABISO MOLALE: The other, two were in my leg, another one in my buttock, one in my back and one was in the head.  They could remove the other four, besides the one that was in my head.

MS SEROKE: We thank you for coming to share with us your story.  We trust and hope that you will try to get back to life and accomplish your ambitions.
 Who are you living with now?

THABISO MOLALE: I live with my grandmother.

MS SEROKE: Is that your grandmother next to you?

THABISO MOLALE: Yes.
MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
7 T MOLALE

MS SEROKE: Are you working?

THABISO MOLALE: I am not working.

MS SEROKE: I thank you for accompanying him.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: Edwin, are you comfortable?  Welcome, I see you have some people with you.  Would you like to tell us who they are?

EDWIN B MOLAOLWA: The other one is my aunt with whom I stay, and the other one is a neighbour at home.

EDWIN B MOLAOLWA: (sworn states)

THOMAS MANTHATA: Edwin when you were meeting the police what happened?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I said I last saw Beebop when I was released from prison.   He was there when we were released.  Since he got arrested he never got home.  I last saw him when we were at prison.

MR MALAN: You don't know where he was shot?  At what location, in what area?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: No I don't know but I still say I last saw him at the police station.

MR MALAN: One other question to you.  This case that was continued against the four.  What happened to this case? Do you have any idea?  Do you have a Case Number for us?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: Are you asking about those who remained in
jail?

MR MALAN: The case on the burning of this girl, Galebale.   13 were involved in the case.  Some went home, the case against them were dropped, and only four remained behind.  Do I read that the case was further proceeded against them?  Were they convicted or were they found not guilty?  Do you have any information on that?
Do you have a Case No on that?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: No I don't have any Case No.

MR MALAN: What happened to that case eventually?  Were they found guilty?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: The case went to court.  I don't know how
MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
7 L M MOTHIBI
the case ended up.

CHAIRPERSON: Lucas, we want to thank you.   It is clear that you lived in a difficult time and you don't know how these things happened.   And people were arrested and accused of being the people who actually did bad things.  And you don't know what happened, because you didn't even take part.
 What you have told us today - we agree that we have to investigate and then the Commission will try by all means to see if there is any help of any kind that can be given to you.  We wish you strength.

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I also thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

MS NGIXE: The thing is, it was not Yvonne, it was not Yvonne alone.
 After those events she also had a problem with her teeth which she had pulled out, after those events, after those assaults.   I thank you.

DR RANDERA: Yvonne, I would like to ask you, what would you like the Truth Commission to do for you in this case?

MS YVONNE BABE: Because I have ten years without hearing and I am struggling to communicate with my parents, I would like the Commission to help me with hearing aids.
 This is what hurts me most because I can't  establish myself in this world, because the police has done these bad things to me.

DR RANDERA: WhO do you live with, Yvonne?

MS YVONNE BABE: I live with my father.
MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
7 N F NGIXI

DR RANDERA: Is your father working?

MS YVONNE BABE: There is no one who is working at home.  My father is on pension.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard your requests.  We do not have
the power to say we can immediately purchase or buy you a hearing aid, but your request will be referred to the  relevant people who might help you.  
 I would also like to thank you all there for coming today to testify before the Commission.  We are very hurt about what happened to you.   
 Sorry, also because you have lost your teeth and you cannot hear properly now.  We trust and hope that you will with time forget all that has happened to you and move on.
 Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

MR RANDERA: I want to call Malebu Wilfred Oliphant to the table now please.   Malebu welcome.  My colleague, Mr Manthata will be leading you, but before we do that will  you please stand up and take the oath.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you briefly tell us what happened that lead to your conflict with the police.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: Mrs Mabalane I am going to stop at this moment and ask if my fellow Commissioners and Committee members would like to ask some questions.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I would like to ask you about Zero Thebe.  Have you ever known what his real name was?

MS MABALANE: His name is Zero.  His name is Zoro.  Yes, it is written Zero.  I do not know his surname.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So you don't know his surname?   OK we will leave that question out then.
The people who came to fetch Frida at home, were they youths or were they adults?

MS MABALANE: They were youths.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Do you know if they were school children or
just youths who were roaming the streets?

MS MABALANE: No, I do not know because they had their copper heads on.

THOMAS MANTHATA: These young people do you know which organization they belonged to as it was said there they were Civic Associations and other organizations.

MS MABALANE: No, we never knew.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Seemingly, there was an organization by the name of UDF.  Did those youths belong to the UDF?

MS MABALANE: Yes, they belonged to the UDF.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I will return to the name, Zero Thebe.  Was he also a member of the UDF?

MS MABALANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: After this incidence I see here you said there was a family friend, called Louis Manyedi.

MS MABALANE: Yes, he was my uncle.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did he continue to visit your family after this incidence?
MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
5 P MABALANE

MS MABALANE: No, he never did, because he became ill thereafter and now he has passed away.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Was there a court case after the death?  Did you know who was handling the court case at the police station?

MS MABALANE: It was Sergeant Mogatsha.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Mabalane I'm going to repeat what Dr Randera has asked you.  Have you any idea why they have killed Frida?

MS MABALANE: I think it was because my uncle was a
policeman.  The two of my uncles were policemen.  Now I think they killed her because they thought she was related to two policemen.

MS SEROKE: So they have accused her of staying with policemen?

MS MABALANE: Yes, even if she went to the meetings she would be told that she was a spy.

MS SEROKE: What do you request from the Truth Commission with regards to this matter?

MS MABALANE: I would liked to be helped with my house.

MS SEROKE: Did they burn your house?

MS MABALANE: No.   I'm staying with my Granny.  I do not have a place to stay and I would like to have a house of my own together with my children.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Mabalane we have listened to your horrific story. We don't know if we will listen to the testimony from Dipho, but we want to thank you that you came to the Commission to tell us the pain that you have been through and the heavy burden that is still inside you.  We will request God to be with you in this time of trouble and would MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
6 P MABALANE
ask Him to console you.  We don't have those powers, the Commission, but we are going to try and see whether there is any way we can help you.  We want to thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: Chairperson, we would like to ask Garekwe Surprise Thekiso to come forward.
 I would like to welcome Mrs Africa to the  hearing.  She is the wife of the MEC for Housing and Local Government.

GAREKWE THEKISO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please take us through your statement and tell us your story.  We have a very limited reference, because we have only a single page of your statement.  Take your time, please tell us fully what it is about and help us in understanding what it is.  Please go ahead.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

E M THUNYISWA: We were against Afrikaans in our schools.
We didn't want Afrikaans, because most of the subjects like house crafts we were doing them in Afrikaans, and we did not understand Afrikaans quite well and we were acting against Afrikaans.

MS SEROKE: What were you at ...(intervention)

E M THUNYISWA: I was just a member, an ordinary member.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: What can a person say?   What can we really say that will be like oil that you apply on the wound?  When I started I said so many things happened, many bad things happened and many a time you would think, I have heard them all.  And we still hear stories that are shocking.
 Maybe if we'd say to you that the pain that you felt is the pain that helped us that today we'd be sitting here having freedom, we have seen the civilization.   
 Most people like yourself, especially the youth who sacrificed themselves, we now reap the fruits of your toil
maybe by saying this a person might see or might receive some little condolences.   And we want to say we thank you very much for what you did.   Even if you had been through pains we feel for you together with your family.  We want to thank your husband for being a person to support you 
throughout in these terrible situations.
 We have listened to your requests.  We will forward it to those in charge, those who have power to take decisions.   We want to thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

EDWIN B MOLAOLWA: Yes, people were coming to my house every time to bring their condolences and the church people also were coming to my house.  There is nothing very interesting like seeing people who are willing to come and console you.
MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
6 M G YAKWE

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much.  I'm finished with my questions.  We want to thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of help would you request from the Commission?

EDWIN B MOLAOLWA: If the organization can help me because they want us to tell the truth.  I would like them to do anything that can comfort me.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't know what to say.  You are giving us words of peace.   When you told us about the comfort that you got from the church people and other people and even your requests are amazing because you are not asking any financial assistance but you want prayers.  I don't know what to say.   Because we are just helpless when we see people like yourself who have been through hard times and who have been struggling like you did.  And today you can still laugh.  You are showing us humanity.
 This is a miracle in this country.  That people after being tortured they don't have any hate, they don't want to revenge and they are just willing that things can be right in our country.  
 We want to say to you, be blessed together with your 
family.  May God bless you.  We will try to see if there are any help that the President can offer you.  We want to thank you again.   Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mooiriver — 1997-05-28

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Zuma, thank you very much for coming in today.  I don't think you were here for most of today, but if you were you would have heard stories about people who were shot in churches, elderly women who were shot in their houses, children who were shot in their houses, a young child of four years old who had a large rock thrown on her chest - terrible things done by groups of armed men, men armed with terrible weapons, guns and spears and sticks, and the story that you have told us is similar to that.  As you have said yourself, your uncle was a disabled, elderly person, and it's a terrible, callous and brutal thing to have attacked and killed that person, who could not possibly have defended himself.  And we understand some of the pain that you still feel for that family member of yours.
But it's important that you have told us that story, because it gives us a much clearer picture of what it was like for people in Brandville during those terrible years, 1990 and 1991, and we hope that those sorts of experiences will not take place again here in Brandville, and that there will be peace between the hostel residents and the township residents.  And if there isn't, that the police force that we have now is a better one, and one that takes its public duties seriously.
So again we thank you very much for coming in and telling us your story.  
PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  TO  1997/05/29
/PROCEEDINGS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I had the earphones on so I did not hear any disturbance.

UNKNOWN: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Please remain quiet so the witness can continue.  Prince Mahlangu, I will appreciate it if you could focus a little on your own experiences and I failed also to welcome your wife.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Georgina Mahlangu, you are very welcome.  Thank you for being with your husband.  If you could focus on that and narrow it down to the exact, please, occurrences also around that week from the seventh ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... of May through.  It is a very important period and we would like to have some evidence and the time is not unlimited unfortunately.  I do not want to rush you, but I do want you to assist us in getting.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: The next witness which is Mr Solomon Mahlangu who will talk to us about abduction and witness to deaths.  Please get to the stand, we will appreciate that.

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.  Thank you very much.  I will ask Dr Russell Ally to assist you and we will then, of course, again keep the opportunity open to put further questions to you after your story, but at the moment I hand over to Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Welcome to you Mr Mahlangu, Solomon Mahlangu.  You are going to speak about an incident that took place in April.  To be exact on the 14th of April 1986 when you were abducted and shambokked and beaten and also you say that you were witness to other assaults and also to other killings while you were in captivity.  Will you please give us an account of your experiences.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: I did not understand when you were saying all the money.  How much was the money you received?
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
6 M L BOPAPE

MOSENYA LINAH BOPAPE: I do not know because it was brought by the police.  The other money I was taking them from post office.  I do not know as to whether I did get all the money.  What I know, the last payment I got was R1 800.00.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it over R1 800.00 the money you got.  You mean the money you got, the first payment you got, did you get.

MOSENYA LINAH BOPAPE: The other one is R2 000.00.

CHAIRPERSON: We will try to investigate to find out how much did you get.  We thank you that you are here now.  People were killed in all sides during that time, during that troubled times and you are the mother who fell prey, whose son was killed.  The pain you hear is the person who is hurt by any parent.  We bring comfort to you knowing that others who were killed were policemen because at that time people thought that the police were assisting those who were their enemies.  We say God has given us this gracious time of independence hoping that those acts will never happen again in our country.  We thank you, Mam.

MOSENYA LINAH BOPAPE: I thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to say thank you to the organisers for the two seats that they have put a platform which enables you to see the witnesses which did not happen earlier.  I think they deserve a nice little clap.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Father.  The next witness was also not here this morning, but just to check if the witness is here.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-15

DR RANDERA: Captain Kekane, thank you very much for coming and for giving your understanding.  There is just one thing I want to ask you which I would like you to corroborate.  When you made the arrangement to meet did either you or Lieutenant Fourie indicate that you would be able to recognise him because the blue light on the police car would be on.  Was there any visible way that you were going to recognise him when you got to the spot?

CAPT KEKANE: Are you saying would I be in a position to see him on the spot when I approached?

DR RANDERA: That is correct, yes.  Was there a suggestion that he would put on - he was in a police car, not so?  And that he would put on the police light, the blue light of the police car.

CAPT KEKANE: But I don't know, it wasn't necessary for anything because I knew his car.

DR RANDERA: No, I appreciate that.  I am asking whether, because it was at night. I know that you knew his car.  Was he going to have any light on or was he just going to wait for you and you would come and you would recognise his car?

CAPT KEKANE: I would be in a position to see him because he was going to park the other side of the road and I would come approaching and I would see that there is his car parking.   It wasn't necessary for him to maybe light a blue police van.  It wasn't really necessary.

DR RANDERA: So when you arrived there, it was dark and there as no light shining in the car or no light on or anything like that.

CAPT KEKANE: No light was on.  Let me put it this way.  I don't remember any light that was present, even his headlights were not on.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
12 KEKANE

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much, Captain Kekane for
volunteering to come, to speak to us.  We really appreciate it and as I said to Mrs Fourie we will see what leads we can follow and if we do find out anything I am sure you would also be as keen to want to know. Thank you very much for coming.

CAPT KEKANE: I also want to know what happened really and I thank your office.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: Russel.  We thank you Mr Mahlangu.  We have
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
14 K S MAHLANGU
listened to your story and how you were troubled.  We so wish that the people of this province can listen to the King's wish that let their be unity.  Let the nation be one so that the past can be forgotten and people reconcile and be one thing.  Thank you.

MR MAHLANGU: I will also be happy that when we reconcile the truth has to be put on the table so that we can see that this person really wants reconciliation, but if someone is avoiding the truth then, I am sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Let me request the audience to behave.  Sometimes we listen to stories that open up wounds of the past.  Let us listen.  We know it is going to be difficult, but when a person is here and is saying something that you do not wish to hear, let us say to the youth we have a new democracy and democracy says you have to listen even if a person says something you are against.  Do not just keep quiet, you will also get your chance to give your side of your story.
 You know in the past it use to happen that when you have altercated with a person, you would kill each other.  Things have changed now.  We have to talk, we have to argue, we do not have to be in a boxing ring and hit each other.  Let the world see that we have come out of the darkness, we have come out of slavery of apartheid.  We have now moved into a new era.  It is very important that when we come here, when we say please be quiet, be quiet.  We do not have to remind you every time, keep quiet, keep quiet, you at the corner keep quiet because people are going to say, no, they have their freedom, but they are still asleep.  I know you will behave well.  Even if you do not go along with the person's policy.  We are a free nation.  
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
15 K S MAHLANGU
 I want to welcome Prince James Mahalangu.  We welcome you Sir.  Can you please welcome the Prince.  Thank you.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask before you go through your statement which I know you've prepared for us, if you would please take the oath with Commissioner Randera.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

MS MHKIZE: The case I was referring to raise, when people were raided in their communities, house to house raids, and the police would come in their hippos, assisting the so called Mbokotos, or standing aside to let them do their job. I'm referring to that as well. Your own police who would go in your hippos, government property and load these people or protect them.

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, that's most probably the best question, and this perspective has never come to the fore. At the end of my time we had police uniforms.  We had three bases, that is now the South African policemen, every three months they are changed, and then we also had a base in van Reenen, there's one in Tweefontein and there's one in Vaalbank, and they travelled with hippos, we didn't have hippos. I'm glad she asked the question, Kwandebele police never had a hippo.  That was General Wandrag's people and
the soldiers had the Buffels, that was General Moller's people.  We had a few police vehicles and when there was trouble then I had green vehicles, just so that people could see that it's not a yellow vehicle, so we then painted them green, just to show the  public, but the perception was MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
25 HERTZOG LERM
already there. We were 800 policemen, we were 40 or 50 when I came here, but there were more or less 800 who were rotating, they were the people with the Caspers and they were the people hitting, knocking and we had cases from them, they came from Mossel Bay, Cape Town, they came from all over, they had no loyalty towards this place, that was not my problem, it was forced on us.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier Lerm, thank you very much for that submission and for the information that you have provided Sir.  Thank's for coming to the hearing. Thank you.

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson can I just say something and I say it on behalf of all the people here.  You know the Truth Commission, I don't know who created this idea, I know in Chile where there was also oppression, but this is the most wonderful thing that could have happened to South Africa. And I already told Dr Ally, I already see a change. I was only once at the Truth Commission and that is today.  I never attended the Parsons Commission, only when I had to go but I came here today and I had an experience here, the way in which everyone acts, each one of you, you are wonderful commissioners, each one of you.  How you place perspective, how you listen, you're not cross with anyone and if we leave here and we go to dining room, it was an experience to eat with the people because I'm used to being among my people, but you're the Truth Commission, I thought Bishop Tutu was here today and that's why I brought this
psalm, but you actually give light in the dark. Thank you Chairperson.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, finally it is very clear that what should have ruled the Kwandebele region or what should have influenced the rule of the Kwandebele people should have
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
29 MAHLANGU
been the blood that flowed in this area.  I mean when we talk about whether the blood was let flow by Mbcoto or those who resisted immediately Mbcoto itself, let alone independence, that should have made the people who were capable to make influence, to have been influenced by just that blood, whether to let it spill all the time or to stop it and it is in that regard that rulers of the world have been judged along that line.  We are very thankful for your presence, Mr Mahlangu.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Elsie, thank you for coming to us.  We will have to look at some of the matters that you shared with us.  It is very confusing if there is no external evidence to the fact and especially if one cannot understand it and, unfortunately, your not having asked questions at the time makes it very difficult for us to understand the frame of mind of those that did assault you, but nevertheless, thank you very much for having come to us and we wish you well.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

CHAIRPERSON: We want to understand that what is our
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
15 AMIGO
purpose, we want to know and we understand that political situation in Kwandebele at that time which was the confused state as we understand you, you are explaining the situation that there was no proper leadership which will be able to know the complaints of the people because of that confusion.  That is why we say we want to understand the situation at that time so as to understand to be able to explain to Mary the death of children happened in which situation in Kwandebele at that time.  That is why we say Mary do you really see the situation which was there at that time in Kwandebele in which your son was killed and it was in which situation?   It was a situation which was not necessary in any time of its history.  It was a terrible situation which we don't envy.   That is why the death of a child is painful and as we see your condition it seems as if your child was one of the leaders at that time. For peace to be there leaders are sacrificed.  Those are the people who paved the way, then they would say the person who creates the way is not the person who enjoys the fruit.  Then we say we comfort you, we are with you, then those who are left behind we are always with them.  We thank you for your testimony.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

YASMINE SOOKA: No, it is just that I think flowing out of the questions on policy we would like to prepare a series of questions which we want then to submit and get them to answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: If that could be tackled in your next sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me start again.  All of you have been very, very nice people.  Everybody wants to be commended, but quite seriously each of us has a contribution to make to
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
21 R MEYER
this new South Africa.  There are some of us who think that because we now have freedom that that freedom is really licensed, but in fact, I mean we have a new struggle.  We had the struggle to get rid of apartheid.  Now we have the struggle to make our country the success that it must become and each one of us must fold up their sleeves and put their shoulders to the wheel.  Each one of us, black, white, coloured and whatever, now that we know that we belong together.  So from here these people say they are going to have quite a number of other questions that they would like to put to you and you have very graciously said yes.  Thank you very, very much.  
 Will you kindly leave these things at the door if you have got it.  If you take it out it is very dangerous this thing, it will bite you.  You should please leave it at the door there, but I just want to say again a very big thank you to everybody.  Thank you to the police, thank you to the briefers, thank you to our statement takers and thank you to my colleagues on the panel here, thank you to the interpreters, thank you to the technicians, thank you to all these beautiful nurses and the people who fed us.  We are enormously grateful so I am going to clap you and then you can join me in clapping you.  Thank you.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

THOMAS MANTHATA: ... to tell us about the torture that you went through when the police arrested you in 1985 when you were a leader of the UDF.  Mr Mogaswane, what were you doing at that time?   What are you doing now, are you working?

MR MOGASWANE: No, I am unemployed, I am just trying to make ends meet.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What are you really doing?

MR MOGASWANE: I am a hawker, I am selling.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Where is your wife?

MR MOGASWANE: My wife is at home where I am running this small business of mine.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What is she doing?  Where are the children?

MR MOGASWANE: They are schooling but you see now it is holidays and they have gone out to visit.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Let us then carry on.  Tell us about the torture that you went through when you were in the hands of the police.  It was in 1986.  I have to correct you.  It is not 1985.  Because in 1985 there was no strong violence but towards the end of 1985 this unrest blossomed and everybody could realise that there was unrest.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath.

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You may be seated.  Mr Tom Manthata will assist you.  I hand over to Mr Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are you Michael.

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: Yes, I am.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Michael, where are you working?

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: I do not work anywhere. I am self-employed.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What are you doing?

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: I sell at the shop which I have built.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Where is your wife?

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: She is there at the shop.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is she at work?  Are the children at school?

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: There is just one, is the one first born.

THOMAS MANTHATA: The young ones, are they at school?

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: Okay, the last one, sorry, the last one was the last born.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And the elder brothers and sisters are they working?

MICHAEL MOKHONOANA: The others are their at their own houses.

THOMAS MANTHATA: May you tell us what do you know about the death of your son.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

RUSSELL ALLY: Tata, thank you very much for coming to speak to us.  We have heard so many of these stories of people caught up in this conflict and the tragedy of this decision of incorporation where before that the testimony that we hear is that people lived together quite harmoniously.  There may have been tensions and difficulties but there was very little conflict and very little violence between Moutse people, Peddie people, Ndebele people.  But once this decision about incorporation was made and forced onto people the whole area erupted into violence and conflict and there were so many tragic and so many senseless deaths. Now there is very little that anyone can say to someone who has lost a loved one but maybe when one understands the background and the history maybe that can be of some assistance.  It can't take away the pain but maybe can bring about some understanding and it seems that in the case of your nephew as well was one of those deaths which took place as a result of this conflict, during this conflict.  You say in your statement that the witness says that it was the South African Police.  When we don't have anything specific to go on other than just a general statement like that it is very difficult for investigation because one doesn't know which
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
7 MONAGENG
member or which unit but we are trying to follow up on every statement to follow up on every lead but the most important thing really is for people to come forward if they believe that loved ones have been victims, suffered gross human rights violations so that when we make a report at the end of the life of the Commission to the President and through him to parliament, then that account of what happened to your family member, to your nephew can be in that report and it is then the responsibility of government to decide whether the recommendations which the commission makes, whether those recommendations will be followed through so that something can be done for those who actually lost their lives during the conflict over the last 33 years, the period covered by the Commission.  So thank you for coming and sharing what must have been a difficult and painful experience. Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much for your statement, Mr Motsepe.  We will see, we do have Captain De Jager here and when he has a chance to come to the witness stand we will ask him about this incident and what his views are and whether he wants to comment on these allegations which you have made about the arrest and the detention and assault.  But thank you very much for your statement and for shedding some light on the incidents of that period.  It is very important that we clear up some of the factual stuff, especially the dates which you mention in your statement.  So I hope that with one of our statement takers we can clarify that and clear up that confusion.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Just to try and clear up something.  Often names come up over and over again and there is not necessarily always a connection but the name Mthimunye has come up in quite a few statements by other people as a member of Mbcoto as implicated in certain acts against people who seemed to be on the other side of the conflict.  As far as you know your son was  he ever - do you know him to have been a member of Mbcoto?  To have been involved in any Mbcoto activities?

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: No, I didn't know that he was involved in Mbcoto's activities.  And I was never told whether he was a member of Mbcoto or not.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you know whether he was a friend of Majozi Mahlangu, were they acquaintances, did they know each other?  Do you have any knowledge of that?

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: I do not know.  I really don't know.

RUSSELL ALLY: Well we do have Mr Majozi Mahlangu appearing later so maybe we can ask him that question, but thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understood you well you said Richard was working together with a certain chief or an induna in Kwandebele.    Did I hear you clearly?

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: Yes, he was at Kwashote at number 2.  That is the chief's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that Chief Tjotie was working with Mbcoto or what kind of a person was he?

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: I didn't know him to be a member of Mbcoto.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
7 MTHIMUNYE
My son wasn't a member of Mbcoto also.  Nobody told me that he was a member of Mbcoto.   Maybe perhaps because he was always working with somebody maybe he was a member of Mbcoto.  Maybe he was mistakenly taken because they believed he was a member of Mbcoto.

CHAIRPERSON: You answered me.  I thank you.   We thank you Mr and Mrs Mthimunye.  Was he your only child?

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: No, there were three.  There were four.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the only one who has died?

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: The three are still alive and he was the fourth one.

CHAIRPERSON: We sympathise with you.  I hope that even the children have not been affected.  We look at you, you still have that pain and we are together with you in that situation.  We thank you that you were able to come.  We will try to investigate who killed Richard.  After our findings we will come back to you.  We thank you.

BIKWAPHI MARTHA MTHIMUNYE: I also thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-02-01

MR MALAN: I am not sure that I understand this.  You said
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
6 MTSHWENI
in your evidence that he worked for Piet Ntuli and I think you said something to the effect that you are loyal to the one who pays you.

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: That is correct.  He was working for Mr Ntuli and Mr Ntuli was giving him his salary and he would take the salary to his mother.

MR MALAN: Now what did he do for Mr Ntuli?  What was his work for Mr Ntuli?

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: He was cleaning the hall.  He had to keep the hall clean at all times because it was used for many activities around the township.  He had to take care of the hall.

MR MALAN: Was he not a shopkeeper?  Because in your statement, if I can just point this out...

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: He wasn't a shopkeeper.

MR MALAN: Well then that information is wrong and that is what confused me.  He worked at the Seobuswa hall and his responsibility was to keep that in order.  To administrate that.  Is that correct?

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: He was a caretaker at the hall.  That is all he was doing.

MR MALAN: Was he paid by the government or by Mr Ntuli?

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: He was paid by the government.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtshweni, this old woman who was taken care of by Piet Mtshweni, is she still alive?

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: You mean the Mtshweni's mother?  Yes, she is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: With whom is she still staying?

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: She is with the other siblings of our family.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtshweni we are grateful that you are here. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
7 MTSHWENI
You will see that we are talking about terrible times in Kwandebele.   We are here to investigate exactly what was happening.  We are looking for the full truth because it is the truth which will give us peace and know that where should we go from now.  That all things which were committed previously should not happen again.  We seek national reconciliation and therefore would say Piet died at the time when there was no peace and he died that there should be peace.  That is why we say we sympathise with you, then you must tell them at home that we sympathise with them and that we are always with them. We thank you, sir.

HENDRIK PETROS MTSHWENI: I also thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

CHAIRPERSON: With whom are you Mr Ndalanda?  Is he the one who is helping you.  We thank you.  I will hand over to Mr Wynand to lead you with the oath.

JOB NDALANDA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Joyce to lead your evidence.

MS SEROKE: Good afternoon Mr Ndalanda.  You are coming here to tell us about yourself having been abducted by some other people in April 1986.  You were also taken away in June 1986 and you witnessed a person being shot.  This was during the time when there was unrest in Tweefontein from 4 to 12 1986.
We will request you briefly to tell us as to what happened to you on those two days.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

MS SEROKE: Can you continue how they used to burn their own shops, if that is possible, or you want to tell us somewhere what your objectives were.

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: When I gave my statement they channelled us that we should give this kind of statement.  They didn't want us to give them a long statement, they wanted to make a short statement.  That is how we gave our statements.  It was not the first time to give our statements before the TRC.  Some few years back we gave some statements.  So when the UDF was formed, when the commissioner asked me, Commissioner Wynand Malan, said we don't want which political affiliation does one belong to.

CHAIRPERSON: I wanted to know as whether did they make it to give you a short statement.  You wanted to make a longer statement, that is why we said to you you may extend your statement by being given a chance to be heard in camera.  That is what we want to know as to whether you want to appear in camera when we adjourn here.

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI: Mr Chairperson I understand but when I go and make another statement it might differ with my testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Magau we thank you.  We understand the way you were assaulted, they made you to drink petrol and wanted to set you alight.  Those are terrible things and we support you. We are happy that you were not killed and then you had strength to know that that was wrong and again that you are able to talk about it outside. We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, may I just get this clear.  Did your husband, did his brother identify the people?

MARTHA SITHOLE: I do not know as to whether he saw them, but we are in the same area.  I believe he saw them when they left, but I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to observe that it makes it extremely, and this is a general statement really to everybody.  If we call names of people from what we believe instead of from what we know, makes it exceptionally difficult and also the accusation hurts when a person is accused and might not have been involved.  So, we have got to be ten times more careful in the future, as not to be naming people if we want to live in unity and reconciliation except if we have the evidence to support it.
 It is common cause that your husband was taken away by people.  It is common cause that he did die.  There is nothing much that we can help you with except to tender our sympathy and condolences and to hope and pray with you that somewhere in the future you will also find meaning to his death.  Thank you for sharing your painful experiences with us.  It must have opened up all the wounds.  We appreciate your joining us and giving your testimony.  Thank you.  
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

MRS B SKOSANA: No, I do not have an idea.  I am sorry.  He was sent back and we had to bury my husband and we were told that we will never bury him on Saturday.  He had to go back to Bronkhorstspruit.  He was buried on Tuesday and we decided to leave the place to go to Vosloorus.  I do not know what happened thereafter.  I came back when Makawe died.

MS SEROKE: Selina, you said the comrades were arrested.  Why were they arrested?  Do you have an idea?

MS S SKOSANA: The comrades said to the Imbokhoto people you MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
11 S SKOSANA
killed Mr Skosana and he was assisting the school kids.  The police said to the youth get out of the yard and the youth refused and a teargas canister was released.  Then the youth were arrested.

MS SEROKE: Maybe I do not understand your point.  You said they did not want to get out of the yard.  You said to them please leave because you have just been released.  Tell me you said they have just been release.  Why were they arrested before?

MS S SKOSANA: They were arrested for burning Makawe's store.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Selina, in your statement you mention certain people as the alleged perpetrators.  There are four, five names that you give.  Now, these people, did you see them there?  Why is it that you name them and can you tell us if you know where these people are today?

MS S SKOSANA: It is difficult to call people's names.  I was told that the statement is confidential.  I can name them.

RUSSELL ALLY: No, I do not want you to name them because it is in your statement.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA