Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, this came about with the disclosure, it was hidden from me and it was wrong.

MS COLERIDGE: Can you tell us why it was hidden from you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Because there were direct instructions that a person who was sacked was not to be used again.  Mr Barnard was just an example of one person, there were many other similar incidents where persons were sacked and then the policy was that he may not work in another region again.

MS COLERIDGE: So Mr van Zyl basically didn't follow your orders, is that correct?  Was he aware and alive to the fact?

CHAIRPERSON: Was that Mr van Zyl or Mr Burger?

MS COLERIDGE: Mr van Zyl.  Was he aware of the fact that Barnard was dismissed by you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he went contrary and against your orders, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes I can see, if I read the documents I can imagine how his mind worked but it was against my orders.

MS COLERIDGE: Yes because even Mr Wouter Basson in his Section 29 stated that at your training, at their training, they were informed that once a member was dismissed that members part of the CCB should not be used again, I mean they were all aware of that fact?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that was the policy.

MS COLERIDGE: And that's at bundle C, Chairperson, just for reference sake, page 203.
	Then just in relation to Mr Kalla Botha, we believe that he was also placed on ice, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Can you just tell us why?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, placed on ice?  What does that mean, was he fired or was he just rested for a while?

MS COLERIDGE: That's just that, I think he can explain to us Chairperson, it's their language, one of his own operatives used that word.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, it only meant that he was not used but he had not been sacked yet and the incident was a regional incident.  I cannot elaborate more on the detail here but I think Mr Christo Britz will be able to explain properly to you what led to this but I do know that there was a dispute between Mr Staal Burger and Mr Botha and eventually Mr Botha was then put on ice.

MR LAX: Would suspended be an appropriate term?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes I'm just trying to find the Afrikaans for it.  No, suspended means that he was sacked while in his case he was not sacked but as one would say in the newspapers he was on paid leave or it was said he will not work but we shall still pay him.

MS COLERIDGE: So just for time reference, what period was that suspension period of Kalla Botha?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: His Regional Manager will know, this was one of many reasons.

MS COLERIDGE: Because he was also involved in the Athlone Learning Centre incident.  Was that in the time period of his suspension?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: We have to confirm that with his Regional Manager, I see what you are leading to but it is possible, maybe on the same basis that it had happened.

MS COLERIDGE: So then it's possible that he was then obviously not to partake in any operations?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: If it was during that time period then it was so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he later reinstated as a full operative or did the CCB come to an end while he was still on the ice?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I would think it was quite close to that time, not much happened then because the first problems developed round about July if I recall correctly, July or August of 1989, I don't have the exact dates so I don't think much was going on during that time, I cannot think of any other.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: Was it generally the feeling that everybody was unhappy with the performance of Region 6?  Can you comment on that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I would like to state it as follows that Region 6, Chairperson, was in the process of development, Region 6 did not have the same Special Forces training but I do think that to the best of their capabilities and in this process of development, Region 6 started with much activities and they were developing so there was no feeling of dissatisfaction about them.  If there was any problem it was with regard to procedure and that they had not yet worked according to the standing procedure and that they did not make any plans as the other members who were trained made or formulated plans, they went about their own way but they were in the process of changing.

MS COLERIDGE: But isn't it true that in a situation like your covert operations that discipline is very, very important, that all members should be disciplined and follow the orders of their commander, isn't that so?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is definitely so, yes.  I ascribed it to the difference in culture and it is known to me when one is in the Defence Force one goes through a process where one has to do something as to what is the plan and what is the objective, that is how a soldier works and in the case of the police they acted impromptu and acted on their own so it is not necessarily negative but discipline is much stronger or has to be much stronger when one works alone, that is true yes.

MS COLERIDGE: That is correct because especially when you're entering and doing incidents such as bomb blasts etc. etc., that you'd expect people to disciplined in that scenario and not for Slang van Zyl for instance to go against your command and actually use people like in the Dullah Omar incident.  Barnard, which was against your orders, to actually go against you and to use those people and yet he was quite aware of that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is correct, it was the incorrect procedure.

MS COLERIDGE: Even Basson, Chairperson, in bundle C, page 30, the last paragraph, he also just makes a statement in relation to Region 6.  I shall read it, it's page 30, bundle C, just the last paragraph.  Mr Basson states
"I was unhappy with the person Van Zyl and I was unhappy with the Region 6 which did not follow procedures which was unprofessional according to me."
Will you agree with that statement?  Would it confirm your position?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I agree, I must just add that Mr Basson was the co-ordinator so from my side there was much pressure on him.  His biggest problem in life was having my orders executed in Region 6 so I can see how he felt, why he felt that way.

MR LAX: May I interpose?  Would it not also have been so that as regional co-ordinator or Regional Manager rather, or as the co-ordinator he would have had much more to do in terms of co-ordination more directly with that region than you would have?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, yes.  The Regional Manager could at any time speak to me but the day to day co-ordination of all activities were handled by the co-ordinator for all regions.

MS COLERIDGE: Who was Gen Webb's commander?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Gen Webb's direct boss was the Chief of the Army because Special Forces were a combat or in the service or at that stage he was not in the service of the army, he was directly under the Chief of the Army which was Gen Geldenhuys but earlier I said that for certain actions the action was seconded to Special Forces but the commander of what had to happen was Gen Kat Liebenberg, he was responsible for the combat on land so the direct boss of the army was ascribed to the army and Special Forces were co
opted to assist in that action, we couldn't do it on our own but we made a contribution.

MS COLERIDGE: So would you say that Liebenberg and Geldenhuys, if he was still the chief at the time, were they aware of the CCB actions?  I assume so because they were part of the architects of the CCB.