Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-30

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just to follow up on the last question.  If you thought that at the time he shot, why did you ask him afterwards about why he had shot him?
	If, as a trained person, you knew why he shot him, why did you ask him about it?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I thought about it, but I had to confirm it with him.

MR LAX: You see your previous evidence was that you didn't know why he had done that at all, not that you even had an inkling about it.  Your previous evidence was that you knew nothing about why he had shot him.
	Please explain that to us.

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Maybe it is because there were a lot of questions being asked.

MR LAX: Lungisani Nqabe, who is he to you?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He is my cousin's son.

MR LAX: How well did you know him?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I know him well.  For instance on one occasion he was one of the people who were supposed to be trained in Umtata.

MR LAX: So he was someone you would normally have trusted?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, I could have trusted him, although you could never be too sure about a person.

MR LAX: You weren't on any bad terms with him?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: No.

MR LAX: You see, the evidence he gave at your trial is almost exactly the same as the evidence Filo gave.  I say almost because there were some minor differences.
	Why would he give evidence against you?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: When Lungisani reported, the police kept him at the police station in Camperdown.
	In that way he had become one of them, and he had to work with them so that I would be convicted.

MR LAX: When were you and Filo arrested in this matter?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I was arrested in March.  Filo was arrested, I think around August.

MR LAX: Were you aware that Lungisani made a statement to the police immediately after this event, the very next day?  It appears from the judgement of Justice Maggett and in that statement, he never saw any shots fired by Filo, he says that in there.
	It was on, let me just explain further, it was on that basis that the Judge absolutely rejected the idea that there might have been a conspiracy between Nqabe and your co-accused, Mthetwa to create a version that would implicate you only.

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I think the deceased Nhlamvu Mkhize was killed or was shot using a G3 and Sbusiso Mlaba was shot, using a 7,65.  I would not have been able to use these two guns simultaneously.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Committee member.  Again I am quoting from this evidence report, and I don't know which statements they are referring to, whether or not it is the same statement made by Lungisani Armstrong Nqabe in the trial, or whether this is a separate statement that the Truth Commission Investigators took, but it is clear from this that this witness did not see who shot Sbusiso.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is clear from the judgement as well.

MR LAX: Absolutely, I am not suggesting that.  All I am saying is and the thrust of my point is simply this that Nqube made a statement the very next day in which he in no way  implicates the co-accused.
	The Judge's logic was that there was so little opportunity to create a conspiracy at that stage, and bearing in mind that the co-accused was only arrested some six months later, the chances of them to concoct a version, are very minimal.  Do you get the thrust of what I am saying?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, I understand what you are saying.

MR LAX: There is just one other aspect that I want to ask you about that worries me a little bit and that is this, in the judgement it is clear that the Judge refers to the medical evidence of the pathologist who looked at the second deceased's body and the conclusion that the pathologist came to, was that the deceased could only have been shot execution style in the back of the head.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Mlaba, the deceased Mlaba?

MR LAX: Yes.  In other words, he would have had to be in a kneeling position, with a bullet wound from the top of his head, downwards and the way you have described him being shot, simply wouldn't be possible to do that?
	Can you comment on that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Sbusiso Mlaba was not on the ground, he was not shot on the ground.  He was killed whilst he was on the bed.

CHAIRPERSON: When that shooting took place Mr Mlaba, of the - we will call him the second deceased, Mr Mlaba, Sbusiso, was the person who shot him, Filo, close by to him when he shot him?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Filo was sitting next to me and the deceased was about the distance the table is from where I am.

CHAIRPERSON: About four or five paces?

MR LAX: If the positions of the two people were as you have indicated to me, that Mthetwa was sitting next to you on the bed and this person was on his bed, across the room, trying to get out of the window, how could he have sustained such an injury?
	It is just physically impossible?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Who are you referring to?

MR LAX: We are talking about Mlaba, Sbusiso Mlaba?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: The room that we were in, is small.  Nhlamvu was sitting on the ground and Sbusiso was on the bed, and we were next to the door, sitting on the sofa.
	When I finished shooting Nhlamvu and Sbusiso was trying to flee out of the window, Filo shot him at that time.

MR LAX: Well, was Sbusiso standing up, trying to get out of the window, was he standing on the bed, trying to get out of the window?
	How would he get out of the window, laying down on the bed, sitting on the bed?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: The window is next to the bed, it was next to the bed.

MR LAX: So how did he try and get out of the window?  You were there, I wasn't there, I am trying to understand, you've got to help me please.

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: From what I saw, the window was almost open when Filo hit him.

MR LAX: Filo was sitting next to you on the bed after you shot this man, is that right?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And four, five paces across the room, was the second deceased, Mlaba trying to desperately open a window so that he could get out?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR LAX: Filo then shoots him from across the room?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.  He shot him whilst he was on the bed, trying to get out.

MR LAX: They both were on two beds basically, Filo is sitting on one bed and this man is across the man, on another bed, correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: No, we were on a sofa, myself and Filo.

MR LAX: You were sitting on a sofa?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR LAX: That still doesn't explain how he had got the bullet wound in the head that indicates execution style killing as opposed to the sort that you have just tried to demonstrate.
	Maybe you can help us?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I cannot explain anything other than what I have just told you.  I had the G3 and I shot Nhlamvu and Filo had the 7,65.  I think that if that person had been shot, using a rifle, maybe his head would have exploded, but because he was hit with a pistol, it did not.

MR LAX: Yes, I won't get into debating the merits or demerits of the different velocities and what their likely impact would have been.
	Just one final aspect, why didn't you in the trial tell or indicate the whole political nature of this offence?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: It was not easy to reveal this, because in court you deny charges until the very end.  I thought that if I admitted to the charge, I would have been convicted for a very long time.
	Secondly, when Filo gave evidence, he actually gave evidence against me and I was the one who was actually charged with the entire offence, and it was just left to me, so I denied it.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Chief Mlaba's position in that community?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He was a member of Parliament in kwaZulu Natal and he is the traditional leader at kwaXemba.

CHAIRPERSON: What party did he represent, was he there in his capacity as a Chief, what was his political leanings?