Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Now, I told Vuyani to indicate with a car hoot, if it is really the whites, to confirm that because we were not absolutely sure that the car was theirs, because we didn't, we didn't know their car.
	So Vuyani confirmed really with a car hoot, so I myself, I also confirmed.  I was laying in a hidden post, there was a vegetation there.  Vuyani, Guleni, that area is in the hill, it is moving up that ...(indistinct) graph, Guleni and Timan were just below myself.  I was in the vegetation there, in a hidden post, because it was a bend.  
	Vuyani indicated that this is the right car.  I heard a shot, I cannot be certain whether it was Guleni or Timan who shot, but before I pulled the trigger, two shots have already fired at the time.  The car approached the area where I was.  The car approached my position, then I pulled the trigger myself.  The rifle was on the automatic option, because my aim was to overturn the car.
	I concentrated on the front seat occupants with my aiming, because I wanted the car to capsize.  I shoot the whole magazine, which carried about 35 rounds, right on the car, aiming on the first occupants.
	At that time, it was a Twincab, this was a 4 x 4 Twincab, there were also some of the people who were on the back seat.  I realised that the car now was jerking and it failed to pull off and then it, at the time the car was on the side of the road.  The area, the road, the road is on the hill and that side is a steep, it is a ...

CHAIRPERSON: Cliff?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a cliff you are talking about?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, it is a cliff that side, but not that much cliff which is, it is a cliff because the road is on the hill.

MR ZILWA: In other words the road is carved out of the hill, there is a sheer drop to one side, at an angle though?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.  Now at the time when the car was starting to jerk, it was right at the edge of the road, that side of the hill.  Then it failed, then reversed a small distance, and then it capsized.

MR ZILWA: It other words it went off the road to the side where the drop is?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR ZILWA: Please carry on.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Some of the comrades were interested in going, on making a follow up, but I stopped them and instructed the comrades to go to the car and then we pulled off to Majola, where we dropped the comrades that we got there, and then we proceeded to the town.  We dropped Fundisile Guleni and Pumelele ...

MR ZILWA: Sorry, let's get that aspect which you have just mentioned, let's get that straight.  You say some of the comrades wanted to follow up and show that, when you say that they wanted to follow up, what was that meant to establish?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: What happened was that after the car had capsized, the comrades moved from the car, joined the two comrades, Fundisile Guleni and Timan, because they are not in the hiding point, in the hiding position.
	At the time the car was overthrown, the comrades were going up from the car.  Some of them, one that I can remember is Lungile Mazwi, were interested for instance, on going to the car to make sure that we have done our job, we have killed those people, there are no people who would really survive, but I decided to call them.   I instructed them to go back to their car and we pulled off.  That is what happened.

MR ZILWA: The reason for that really, were you reasonably certain that you had hit the occupants that you were aiming at, at least the front occupants?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The reason was that we had done the job, because ours was to show that really, it is wrong that leaders like Chris Hani, could be killed.  We were not there to really kill, even if the message has gone to where we were aiming at.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly, you just wanted to do enough to get the message across?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.  According to my own analysis, it was enough at that time, that the car had capsized and as I said earlier on, I aimed at the first occupants.  I was certain that there would be people who cannot survive there.  I was certain of that.  Especially those who were in the front seat.
	Because I couldn't aim thoroughly to those who were at the back seat because some were going down there and so they were not really in my own sight at the time.

MR ZILWA: Let me see if I understand you correctly, in other words, you were certain that the message had gone across because you were reasonably certain that you had hit at least the front occupants of the car, and it was not really your objective to kill each and every person in that car.  You were certain that the message had been sent across?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Please carry on.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Fortunately they agreed with me and we went back to the car.  Then, we aboard the car.  We went to Majola to bring those who belonged there and then back to Port St Johns.  We left Pumelele Hermans and Guleni and then we went back to Flagstaff, the three of us.

CHAIRPERSON: That same day?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The same day.

MR ZILWA: Now, approximately at the time of the actual operation, the actual firing at the car, approximately what time would it have been?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Approximately it was maybe half past - five to half past five.  I am not certain.

MR ZILWA: Okay, please carry on.  For instance you have stated that after the operation, you boarded the vehicle and those people from Majola were delivered to Majola.  Can I assume that those you had picked up in town, ie Hermans and Guleni were also delivered to town, and then you of Flagstaff drove back to Flagstaff, would that be correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Anything else you haven't told us with regard to the operation itself?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: After we had carried out the operation at Port St Johns, I reported it to Max who later told me that he had gone to report the operation in turn to one comrade Prince Madikizela, an Attorney in Bizana who was at the time, serving as the Chairman of the ANC sub-region F.

MR ZILWA: What was the reason for you to report the operation to Max?  Is it because it was done under the auspices of the organisation, let's get it from you.  What was the reason for you to report this to Max?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The reason is that we carried the operation within our political scope, within our programme as the SDU's and ANC Youth League, let me say so, that is the political programme.
	We carried that to ensure that the government of the day, which was not really legitimate, to respond so as to liberate the people of this country.

MR ZILWA: If a view could be expressed that that was during the time that the transitional process had at least been commenced, and it was not really necessary for you to do that, what would be your response?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I agreed that the time of the negotiations, but at that time, I can say the government of Mr De Klerk was really playing hide and seek there, because at that time, there was a delay in terms of setting the date of the elections.
	If one could remember, the ANC there at ...(indistinct), had certain conditions for the then government, but those conditions were not taking place.  For instance many people were dying, especially in Gauteng, and there was an element that a Third Force was there, which was really associated with that government.
	So, in those grounds, I think we did the right thing to show the government, which was not yet, which was not honest to the ANC at the negotiations there.  Because one would remember that for instance the question of hostel dwellers, the ANC had demands there that each hostel should be proved in certain ways, but the government was not cooperating.
	So, that is the reason.