Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

CHAIRPERSON: Was it never suggested by Samuel Neti that you rape Ms Ndumo after she had been shot by Mr Radebe?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Radebe maintains that version that he gave in Court, what would be your comment?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not agree with what he says, I know it is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that Mr Radebe said Mr Neti suggested that you and him rape Ms Ndumo after she had been shot at by him, but that you refused?  Are you aware of that evidence having been led during your criminal trial?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I'm not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not present when Mr Radebe testified against you at your criminal trial as a State witness?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying therefore that the judge has summarised the evidence that was never tendered in Court by Mr Radebe?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is the evidence that was given by Mr Radebe in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the information that you received from the gentleman who stayed at - I'm trying to get the name, Eating Site, that is Skhalo that suggested that Ms Ndumo was spying for the IFP, what other information did you have other than that one?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, we got information from comrades of other areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Which areas are those?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We once found information from Zone 11.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was to what effect?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Seemingly a member of IFP was captured in Zone 11 and that member was questioned and the member revealed Hapile and friends.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not have any information that is within your personal knowledge that she was such, apart from the information that you were given by other people like Skhalo and the other comrades who would have extracted that kind of information from people who were about to die, is it not so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is so, I got the information on the day of her death.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your affidavit you say that after you had killed Ms Ndumo and seriously injured Ms Mokoena, you reported the incident to your sub-branch.  My question is, when you got that information about Ms Mokoena and Ms Ndumo, did you discuss it with the leadership of your local branch, prior to killing her?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: At times it happened that when we were at the office we would chat among ourselves regarding such issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you discuss the information with the leadership in your branch is the question that is put to you.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who in the leadership did you discuss this information with?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was Stanley.

CHAIRPERSON: And what position did he at the time of your discussion, occupy in the leadership?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He was the Chairperson of the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: And when were these discussions, in terms of years, was it in 1991/1992 or in early '93?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: From late 1992 we had some discussions whilst at the office.

CHAIRPERSON: And what attitude did he adopt with regard to that information you shared with him about the ladies in question?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: The issue regarding attitude was not important in our discussions, we only discussed issues relating to stopping them from entering the township, or if they are in the township what do we do with them.  Those are issues we discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you suggest that you could proceed to eliminate them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Moloisane?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi, Mr Samuel Neti was with you when Ms Ndumo was shot by Mr Radebe, not so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that Mr Neti was armed with a knife?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was not aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr Neti produce a knife at any stage either before Ms Ndumo was shot at by Mr Radebe, or immediately after she had been shot at by Mr Radebe?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you witness Ms Ndumo's clothes being torn off her body by anyone?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where was Mr Radebe immediately after Ms Ndumo was shot?  Were you not with him?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if, during your criminal trial, he said that you both saw Samuel Neti dragging the body of Ms Ndumo some distance away from where she had initially fallen to, and further tearing off her clothes, what would be your comment, if you were with Mr Radebe all along?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I did not witness that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that you could be there at the same time and you witnessed different things, particularly concerning a target that you had just eliminated?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I saw everything that happened during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: But you saw differently to your colleague, Mr Radebe?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We saw one thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your evidence you say that you returned the next day because you wanted to collect empty cartridges, did I understand your evidence correctly in that regard?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not collect the cartridges immediately after you had shot Ms Ndumo, why should you wait until the next day to do that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was already dark.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was it?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was round about 7 to 8 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you return to the scene the next morning?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: In the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: What time?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Round about past 5 to 6 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you, it's then that you witnessed that Ms Ndumo's body had been desecrated?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know who's responsible for that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know who's responsible for that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you returned you saw her lying dead on the ground with the word Inkatha cut into her thigh?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she clothed?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she naked?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, the clothes had been taken off.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions put by the Panel to Mr Mkhwanazi, do you have any re-examination to do on him?

MS MOLOISANE: I have no questions in re-examination, Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, we don't know how you propose to conduct these proceedings, but we would appreciate if we could have Mr Radebe coming to give his testimony in relation to this incident and thereafter we afford the victims who are opposing the application of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe in relation to this incident, testifying in opposition of your clients' applications in relation to the Ndumo incident, and thereafter afford Mr Radebe an opportunity to testify in support of his application in respect of the other incident.  Will that accord with how you want to conduct your clients' applications?

MS MOLOISANE: I have no objection as to the way in which evidence can be led.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think this will just ensure that we have some order in our record if we followed the procedure recommended by the Committee.

MS MOLOISANE: I agree, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Ms Thabete, do you agree with the suggestion?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   I note that the time is half past four and we have to hear the evidence of Mr Radebe in relation to the incident testified to by Mr Mkhwanazi, do you think it will be in order for Mr Radebe to be here for 30 minutes and then leave for prison?