Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I cannot say what Mr Botha can remember and not remember but it did happen like that.  I do take note of what you have just told me.

MR VAN ECK: I've got no further questions, thank you chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Eck.  Mr Wessels, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Barnard?

MR WESSELS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I have questions.  I will ask some questions and then I will ask for the matter to be postponed, to enable me to get some documentation and to prepare fully for the cross-examination of Mr Barnard.  But I will proceed in the meantime with a few questions I have.
	Mr Barnard, you are currently serving a sentence?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: What does your sentence entail?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was two life sentences and 63 additional years.

MR WESSELS: Why were you sentenced?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Various crimes, amongst others murder, attempted murder, bomb explosions, possession of explosives, defeating the ends of justice, fraud, possession of machine guns.  That is what I can recall now and armed robbery.

MR WESSELS: The life sentences that you are currently serving, the one sentence is for the death of Mr Webster and the other one?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The murder of Mark Lionel Francis.

MR WESSELS: And the attempted murder, you got ten years' sentence, attempted murder on Adv Omar?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: What did you get for the fraud charges?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, it is impossible for me to say.  There must be documentation that will be able to assist you, there were various charges and convictions.  The only one that remained with me is the life sentence.
	If you are sentenced for a life sentence, all the rest fall away, because you've only got one life to serve, you do not have more than one.  I did not really bother with the rest.  I never had insight into it again, apart from the fact that I was in shock when I was sentenced, the one thing that remained with me was the life sentence.  I did not go back to see what I got for the other charges, but I am sure the documentation is available, maybe through my Attorney.

MR WESSELS: You are now here today, you have just opened your heart and you made a full disclosure, you are telling the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, today and yesterday.

MR WESSELS: Is this the full truth, and the whole truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The way in which I recalled it, yes.

MR WESSELS: Did you take the Commission into your confidence and told them about all the incidents that you were involved in?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Mr Chairperson, I cannot say that because there were various things that I could have left out.  You must please remember that I was a drug addict for years.  I became numb and isolated, my whole life became as small as a soccer ball, and that was my whole universe.
	I cannot tell you off the cuff that I made known all the criminal activities in which I was involved in.  I am however willing, if somebody pointed out something to me, that I will testify about any additional criminal activities.  If it would mean that further charges will be laid against me, or if I would then receive further sentences, I do not care.  I have already incriminated myself in my evidence-in-chief.  If there are further investigations or further prosecutions in this regard, it really does not matter to me.
	If I get seven life sentences, I've only got one life, it doesn't really matter.

MR WESSELS: You see, Mr Barnard, it is very easy for you to come here and say what you want to say because of the protection that you get from prison.  You come here and make very serious allegations against certain people and it doesn't really matter, because you are already serving two life sentences, so it really does not matter what happens to you further on.  Nothing more serious can happen to you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is not correct Mr Chairperson.  I am doing it because it is the truth.  I am the first one, and I have said it in my evidence-in-chief, I was a stranger to the truth and the truth may not be easily acceptable, because he is just as big a liar as I was, or am.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, you say that you cannot recall if you committed any other crimes, you were a drug addict, you are now in prison and you could have forgotten about it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, what I am saying is that I led a life of crime, sometimes under the influence of drugs, sometimes when I was sober and sharp.  I cannot say to you now what other crimes I committed.
	If you pointed out to me, I will testify about it.  If the Attorney-General comes to me and takes my fingerprints, so be it, it does not really matter.

MR WESSELS: But why can you not recall it, that is my question to you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, because it is not really important.  I am in prison, I do not care if there are any further charges.  It does not matter.

MR WESSELS: It will not affect your memory, the fact that it does not matter?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think we can deal with it very simply, tell me what I did and I will tell you if I did it or not.

MR WESSELS: No Mr Barnard, I want to know from you why you cannot remember any other criminal activities in which you were involved in, is your memory not very good concerning this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I did commit further criminal activities, but I just cannot recall it.

MR WESSELS: I want to know why you cannot recall the other criminal activities, is it a problem with your memory, is it because of the drugs you took or are still taking, what is the reason for your bad memory?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot tell you sir, I cannot remember all the things that I did in my past.  In the same way, if you or your client can do it, then I would ask you to phone the Guinness Book of Records and it would be a rarity then.

MR WESSELS: Well, it is very strange to me and remarkable rather, that certain incidents you can recall and you can provide us with a lot of details, but you cannot even recall if you committed any other crimes in the past, because your memory does not allow you to do it.  That is what I find very remarkable.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, no criminal who is arrested and sentenced, not one of them are sentenced for all criminal or crimes that he or she committed.  It is exactly the same with me.  I cannot recall everything.  The things that I can recall, you can begin to play with words and a choice of words, was the light on or off, what was the colour of Joe Verster's bowtie, I cannot tell you.
	But where I was involved in, and who was with me and who gave me the instructions, that I can recall specifically.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, is it possible that you were involved in other murders in the past?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I was involved in murders in my police capacity, that I see today as murder, but what was dealt with then as ...  I cannot recall, but in terms of where you were authorised to shoot as a policeman.  We violated that whole section any way, which way we could.

MR WESSELS: Can you indeed recall that you did commit other murders?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Do you remember it now for the first time?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, not for the first time.

MR WESSELS: Why didn't you tell me  before that there were other murders that you committed while you were a policeman?