Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: As far as I can remember Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now I take it from your evidence that at no stage were you given orders or was the order communicated to you from General van der Merwe that you were not to arrest the people whom you were observing?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not receive such an order.

MR WILLS: This was never discussed with you at any stage?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So if Botha says he met with you after his return to Pretoria on the 12th, if he did that this order was not given at that stage?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He did not give me such an order, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you also like Wasserman essentially receive orders not to cooperate with De Beers unit and to keep the fact that these two were arrested quiet from De Beer?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot remember an order to this effect, I accepted it as something that would just be like that.

MR WILLS: Why?  The security branch - is De Beer in the security branch?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So is it common for you to keep something secret from your own colleagues?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You had a discussion with Colonel Botha which has been referred to, I just want to canvass one or two issues, the discussion with Botha on the telephone I think it was regarding the decision what to do with these people, do you recall that?  I think it was on the day of their death, he tried to phone General Steyn, he couldn't get hold of General Steyn so he spoke to you.  I don't know, was it a telephone call or was it a physical meeting?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Botha contacted me and told me to come to the farm.

MR WILLS: And so you went there?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now certain options, Botha has in his evidence claimed certain options were discussed with you.  Can you tell us what those options were?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So when you list the discussion in your affidavit, that's not from your own personal memory, you cannot remember anything about this discussion from what has been told to you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, he discussed options with me about how the elimination would take place.

MR WILLS: What options did you discuss about how it would happen, what were the options that you discussed about how you might eliminate them?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: About how they would be killed.

MR WILLS: What options did you discuss?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think - I cannot remember what we discussed or what other options we considered.  What I can remember is what we had decided upon namely the elimination at the river.

MR WILLS: You see we've had no evidence whatsoever that any other options were discussed as to how to kill them, none whatsoever, this is the first we're hearing that there were options debated about how to kill them?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I do not know if Botha was questioned about this.

MR WILLS: Whether he was questioned about it or not is neither here nor there, no one else has mentioned it, at all?

MR VISSER: Chairperson with respect, I don't want to interrupt but it's not entirely fair.  If you look at Exhibit D paragraph 69 you'll see that that's exactly what Botha said.  The first sentence and it also appears at page 21 of the original application Chairperson, the last paragraph.

MR WILLS: Then I must have been asleep when that evidence was led, I withdraw that remark.
	Mr du Preez, sorry, I'm going to get to that part of the discussion but I'm referring specifically to the time when and I'm referring to page 18 of the original application, page 18 of the bundle where Botha phoned General Steyn to quote in English or my translation:
"that afternoon to inform him but he was not available and I suspected that he had already departed for Pretoria due to the fact that there was no one else with whom I could discuss this problem, I contacted Sam du Preez and I appraised him of the problem and discussed the following options with him."
Okay, have you got that in the affidavit?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wills can you just give us a reference please?  I seem to have lost that part.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I don't know if my translation is annotated as accurately as it should be but it's page 18 of the bundle, the first application.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to check your translation, I just want the reference, thank you.

MR LAX: We've all got it I think.

MR WILLS: Thank you but the one that I'm concerned about is that, is the first one here, the options in relation to Shabalala is the fact that he gives no co-operation.  Do you remember that being discussed?

MR WILLS: Chairperson, I can see a lot of things that Botha had considered.  These are things that he mentioned to me, these are his options that he told me about.

MR WILLS: You see, what Botha says is that he discussed the following options with you, options in relation to Moosa Shabalala and I'm just asking you if this occurred.  Gives no co-operation - was that discussed?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: This was general knowledge.

MR WILLS: Well what was discussed about it, I'm asking you not whether it was general knowledge, with respect, I want to know what was discussed as regards this option?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So can you remember whether he discussed it with you or not?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can't recall this, it is possible that this might have happened, I cannot exactly remember what was discussed.

MR WILLS: He says further that he was not prepared to testify, was that discussed with you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Not that I can remember, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: He said that he was not prepared to become an informer, was that discussed with you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson as I have already said not one of these things, I cannot remember that we discussed one of these things.  It is possible that Botha had mentioned it to me, I cannot remember it.

MR WILLS: Did he discuss that his release would further harm further Vula Operations?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: As I have answered Chairperson, I cannot remember.

MR WILLS: So the short of it is, is that you can't recall that discussion at all?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No I can't Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if it happened?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson I cannot remember this discussion.

MR WILLS: Why don't you say that in your affidavit?  You say you have read the affidavit of Botha and you confirm the contents therein so far as it relates to you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why don't you say in your affidavit that you can't remember that this discussion took place?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot specifically remember it that this point was discussed.

MR WILLS: I'm asking you why you didn't tell us that.  You see, why I ask this and what concerns me about this whole application with all five of you is that you all get together and you make these statements after reading everyone's affidavits and you submit these affidavits as if this is the whole truth and yet here we've come across something where you can't even remember it but you've gone up and you've given evidence under oath that you can remember this discussion and it's true so how can I believe what else you say?