Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Well, obviously he never said that.  Mr Makhubalo, I will give you another opportunity.  Tell us about the other assaults, apart from this one occasion which I referred to if you can.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: From 1984 until 1989, I was a victim of the Security Branch.  I am not able to remember those people who take part in my assault or torture in that duration, but the only thing I can tell is that I was tortured during that period.

MR VISSER: All right.  Can you tell us why you were tortured?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I took part in COSAS.  I was the Chairperson of the Mangawu Youth Congress.  That was a problem to them, that is why I was tortured.

MR VISSER: The Security Branch members knew what you have just told us.  They knew you were the President of COSAS, they knew about your activities, isn't that correct?  They knew about it?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I never said I was the President of Mangawu Youth Congress, not COSAS.

MR VISSER: Yes, sorry, and the Security Branch people knew that all along?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, they did.

MR VISSER: Yes, then there would be no purpose for them to torture you to tell them that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understood he said that, he said he was tortured because he was that, have that position, not to tell them that.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, I refer you to page 3, paragraph 4 of your affidavit.  Have you got it in front of you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: That paragraph says the torturing was done to confess my activities in the Mangawu Youth Congress which organisation was affiliated to the United Democratic Front, is that correct?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now if the police knew that, why would they torture you to confess it?

CHAIRPERSON: Knew what Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I think it is perfectly obvious, that he was the President of the Mangawu Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit says my activities in the Congress.  That is a very different thing from the office I held.  They wanted to know what he was doing, according to the affidavit.

MR VISSER: And I asked him.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked him, if they knew that, why did they torture you.  They knew he was the President.  There has been no evidence that they knew what his activities were Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Did you see any person being assaulted on these numerous occasions when you were taken to that building?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Blood against the walls?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said that.

MR VISSER: Did this happen on every occasion when you were taken to this building, that you saw this?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: May you explain your question clearly so that - do you mean that every time when I went there, there were blood stains?

MR VISSER: I am asking you that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Visser, the witness asked you to explain whether when you say you saw that every occasion, whether you mean he saw the blood every occasion, or whether he saw the assault on every occasion.  He is asking you to explain that.

MR VISSER: I am referring to the blood.  Did you see blood splashed on the walls of the passage every time you went to that building, when you were arrested on these numerous occasions which you told us about?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No, that is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on.  You've told us you were tortured on each or many occasions.  What do you mean by torture.  Will you tell us what was done to you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was beaten.

CHAIRPERSON: With fists or with weapons?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They were using electric shocks to my private parts.

CHAIRPERSON: What else did they do to you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am going to have problems here, because  am I asking about this particular incident, when we were arrested being 19 or in all the instances when I was detained.

CHAIRPERSON: No, in the other.  You said there were all these incidents that you were detained and tortured.  I am just asking what type of torture did they use on those occasions.  Not the 19, you've told us about that in detail.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was kicked and I was hit with fists and they would hit my head against the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was violent, physical assault?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is assault.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they then let you go?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was detained.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: The way I was detained so many times, I am not able to remember how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you kept?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was detained at Grootvlei, Clan police station, Three Ways police station, Batu police station.  Grootvlei prison, Three Ways police station, Clan police station and Batu police station and Ramkraal police station.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I heard the Interpreter saying Ramkraal police station, but there is no such police station.  It is a prison in fact, which is called by the community of Bloemfontein, Ramkraal.
	Moreover, I want to place on record that Three Ways police station, is called this by the community, although it is actually the Heidedal police station.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: The last one is Bloemspruit.  That is police station.  Ramkraal is Bloemfontein prison.

MR VISSER: Can you give us the name of one person on any of those occasions, who assaulted you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Motsamai, Mamome.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Is that all the perpetrators that you can remember that assaulted you at any time?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: You said I should give you one name, so I gave you an extra name.  You didn't say I should give you names of people I remember.  But if you need me to give you the list of people who took part in my assault, I will give you against the list I gave yesterday.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, let's make it perfectly clear.  I am not referring to the incident which Mr Motsamai gave evidence about.

CHAIRPERSON: But your question Mr Visser, was all the perpetrators who assaulted you at any time.

MR VISSER: And he is now giving us the two names about this one occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: And he has offered to give you the list of names.  You said at any time, you did not exclude that incident.  I am merely pointing that out to you so that you should phrase your questions carefully.

MR VISSER: Apart from the time where Mr Motsamai, according to you, and Mr Mamome, suffocated you in Mr Mamome's office, can you give us any names of any other people who assaulted you or tortured you at any other time?

CHAIRPERSON: You are now confining it, you don't want to know what happened in Mamome's office?  You do still want to know what happened on the 4th floor on that day, I take it?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, my question, with great respect, I say, is perfectly clear.  The question here is, we have got one incident here, I am not talking about that incident, I am talking about the other incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do that, don't talk to him and say apart from Motsamai and Mamome who tortured you in Mamome's office, because we know the evidence is that the other torture took place on a different floor, exclude the whole of that incident when they were 19 people there, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Did you understand what the Chairman has just said?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you give us any names please?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: The way I was tortured, some of the names I am not able to remember.  The people I know are those I have already given a list, appear on the list I have already mentioned yesterday.

MR VISSER: Are you therefore saying that the list that you gave in paragraph 5 of your affidavit, are the people who tortured you not only on the occasion when the 19 of you were brought from Ladybrand, but also on all the other occasions when you were arrested, apart from that incident?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I say to you some of the names I don't remember.  But mainly I appear on the list I have written on there.