Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Well yes I am coming back to that brochure because we found it very surprising that you put your name to the foreword there, because the very person who started off with Protechnic, Dr Jan Lourens, he told us it was a front company.  He made it clear to us it was a front company.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally the information I had at my disposal was that Jan Lourens started a company called SRD, if I remember correctly.

MR VALLY: SRD, yes.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He then sold it to Charles van Remoortere, which was a private concern.  Now Charles van Remoortere was the man who came from Belgium to buy it.  And I think you've had evidence from him as well.  But...

MR VALLY: Please go on, I am listening to you.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I just can't see what exactly is the concern about the private company.  I understood it to be a private company and that's what I'm testifying.

MR VALLY: Alright, fine.  Well let us go on.  I am putting to you that before the demarche you were approached by Dr Jan Lourens who told you that he was being asked to manufacture, by Dr Wouter Basson, applicators, screwdrivers, walking sticks etc to inject poison into people.  Were you concerned by this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Of course I was.

MR VALLY: Did you do anything about it?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I did.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what you did?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I reported at the Coordinating Management Committee about the incident where General Liebenberg was present and he said he doesn't believe it, and I was happy that the Coordinating Management Committee shared my feelings.
 However, as I explained to you the events that led up to the demarche gave me additional evidence and that is where I got to the point where I said now it has become evident to me that there has been irregularities.

MR VALLY: Well let's go on, let's go on. From what you say the Coordinating Committee was aware of the fact that there were these screwdrivers and walking sticks being made to inject poison into people, on an individual basis.  You made them aware?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I made them aware.  I made them aware of ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: And they said they did not believe it.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I made them aware of the fact that I had been informed by Dr Jan Lourens ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Right.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: ...about this fact.

MR VALLY: Right.  And you heard Dr Lourens' evidence that when he went to talk to General Kat Liebenberg about it, the response of General Kat Liebenberg, who was head of the South African Army at the time, was "ek soek my speelgoed terug".  I want my toys back.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes that was remark to Dr Jan Lourens.

MR VALLY: That's correct.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And that is what Dr Jan Lourens told me.

MR VALLY: That's correct.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: What did you expect me to do now?  To confront ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Right, now the point I am making is clearly General Liebenberg was aware that there were individual instruments of death.

MR VALLY: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Nothing to do with the chemical offensive or defensive capability, just murder instruments.  And General Liebenberg, what was his role in this Coordinating Committee, because his name appears on the top of every document of meetings, minutes of meetings, was he the Chair?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Say again, I am sorry.

MR VALLY: I am sorry.  Of the Coordinating Committee was General Liebenberg the Chairperson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: At a certain stage, yes.

MR VALLY: So am I to assume that the Coordinating Committee was, at very least, aware of individual instruments of death, injecting poisons into people, that they were aware that this was happening through military front companies?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir, I can't confirm that.  I am saying that they were aware of the information that I gave them that Dr Jan Lourens gave me.

MR VALLY: And you are aware what General Liebenberg allegedly told Dr Jan Lourens?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I was aware of that.

MR VALLY: So if you gave him this information at a meeting of the Coordinating Committee ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No but I did not inform General Liebenberg that he was named by Dr Jan Lourens.

MR VALLY: Fair enough, but you told them at a meeting of the Coordinating Committee, that this had happened.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And there was no concern?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  Let's just go back to the famous "verkope lys". Sorry I just had to bring to your attention - who else raised concerns to you.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Oh yes, yes.

MR VALLY: Dr Lourens stated on a second occasion regarding the offensive capabilities and concerns he had regarding RRL, that he tried to meet with you and you refused to speak to him and his lawyer, Mr Kobus Bekker.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No that is not true, that is not true.  I was phoned by Mr Meyer that he had seen Dr Jan Lourens, along with his lawyer, and would I please interview him, and I did so.

MR VALLY: I see.  Alright.  Did Dr Lourens approach you for a second time at all?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I am not aware of a second time.  I'll tell you where I did see him a second time, I saw him at the 10th Anniversary of the Protechnic Company and I approached him and I said, have you sorted out your concerns?  And I said to him, I encourage you to take part in the investigation of the TRC because he indicated to me that he was contemplating applying for amnesty.  My advice to him was to tell the truth.  And I am sure that he will confirm that to you.

MR VALLY: And did Mr van Remoortere advise you that he was concerned about certain irregularities regarding military front companies?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr van Remoortere advised me about the reasons why he dismissed Dr Jan Lourens.  At the time that he advised me was at the same time when he consulted with me as to what he had to do with this company, that he was considering selling it once again and I was the one who said that I think that company has capabilities that is important to our country and that we should not lose that capability, and that we should try and get it to be taken over by Armscor.  We had those discussions.  I informed Mr Jaco de Jaar of Armscor about my recommendation.  I introduced them to each other and they had negotiations and it resulted in Armscor taking over Protechnic.

MR VALLY: I want to go back to the question before we got sidelined.  That this TRC52 delivery list, "verkope lys", deals with the period of, I think, about five months, 19th of March '89 to 21st of October '89 with all these, and we've now agreed, instruments of murder, did you try and enquire if there were any other deliveries at other times, did you try and make those enquiries when you discovered this list for the very first time in February 1997?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally when this list came to my attention, together with that of Colonel Steyn, we discussed it with National Intelligence because the information or the contents of the trunks were in their keeping.  Now you are asking if I did enquire any further as to any other lists, if I understand you correctly?

MR VALLY: As to any other deliveries, as Surgeon-General and as the person who was responsible for Project Jotta under which RRL fell ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No, the answer is no, I did not make any enquiries.  I was at that stage cooperating with National Intelligence and drawing up the Project Cloud document.  And you have -  everything that is written in the Project Cloud document you have available.

MR VALLY: So for all we may know, and the country may know, that this delivery of cholera, for example, is just one of many, many deliveries of cholera which may be lying in someone's fridge, for all we know?