Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi, may I also request you to keep your responses short and to the point?  Now the question was, why did you not include this information in your application?
Can you just repeat for purposes of translation to the translators?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Could you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not include the information about how you obtained information when you obtained information from Morapapa about the targeted house, why was it not included in the body of your application?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: The manner in which in filled in my application form was such that I did not give extensive information when the application was written or when it was filled in but talking is different from filling in the application form.  You expatiate and give more information or extensive information when you talk and when you explain yourself in your own language, you are able to say certain things.

CHAIRPERSON: What standard have you passed Mr Hlelesi?  What standard of education have you passed?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It's only know that I've just written my matric.

CHAIRPERSON: Now at the time when you completed this application which is not too long ago, what standard had you passed then?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was standard six, standard seven, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was this application completed?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: The first form, there were a lot of forms that I filled in, I don't know which one you're referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the one which bears our stamp dated the 17th January 1997.

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I think that was during 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: You see on page 8 there is a letter that you addressed to the Amnesty Committee care of Ms Lulema Mdanga which is dated the 5th October 1998.  Did you personally write this letter?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes.  Yes this is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: This is where you gave testimony that you received information from a garden worker about your target and that's how you came to target the house which you subsequently attacked, that is so, isn't it?  This is your handwriting?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you came from a family of PAC members, your parents and relatives supported the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct, even my brothers.

CHAIRPERSON: So you basically knew broadly without knowing the specifics the basic policy of the PAC, I mean what the PAC was doing fighting for the land, making sure that the people who had been disenfranchised until 1994 got an opportunity to air their views and vote for the government that they wanted in power?  You knew all those things?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get the translation?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] very important that in your fight that you ensured that the oppression and the frustration that you've alluded to in your application was something that you achieved, you put aside and you could only do so by making sure that people at least enjoyed a vote?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes that is correct but voting with limits was a different issue.

CHAIRPERSON: What voting with limits are you referring to?  Didn't the PAC participate in the first ever elections in the history of this country which included all people?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes, they took part but I mentioned earlier on that Morapapa was my commander, he ordered us.  According to him we did what he wanted at the time he wanted, where he wanted.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why you joined the PAC because you wanted to further the objectives, is that not so?  Not to answer to the whims of Mr Morapapa, you wanted to further the objectives of the PAC, that's the reason why you became a PAC member?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a PAC in 1993 when you were recruited by Morapapa, is that so?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew the objectives of the PAC, you couldn't have become a member without knowing the political objectives of the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: According to what he explained to me, he told us or told me that the war should still go on that is why we were still looking for weapons and that is why I acted in accordance with his instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi were you really a member of the PAC and you existed, I suppose, within your community is it not so?  You stayed with the community of people who were supporting PAC, the ANC and other liberation movements.  Are you saying that you were not aware that on the 27th April 1994 there were elections in which the PAC participated wholeheartedly?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes all that happened and I also came to be aware of it.  As I've already explained before, I'll go back to my words, as a new recruit within the organisation I heard most of the things after the operation.  I don't know whether I've answered your question.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, what do you mean?  You keep on referring to being a new recruit, a new recruit of what?  Were you just not an ordinary member of the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I was a supporter.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any membership card with the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: At that time I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were merely recruited to be a supporter?  I thought you were a member of a particular cell?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes that is correct in the way that I have explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlelesi, I think Mr Malan would like to ask you a question?

MR MALAN: I really have only question in my mind.
	When you went to this house why did you think you were going there?  Remember at that time, if I can just tell you why I'm asking this question, you told us that you weren't informed beforehand about weapons, about the objective, about the information that they got from the garden worker or ex-garden worker.  You just went to the house, you were only told after the operation what the purpose was really and where the information came from.  What did you think you were going to do at the house?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: To explain that I had already explained that we had gone there to retrieve or get some guns but what I did not get was how the information was obtained, that is why I say I obtained the information at a later stage.

MR MALAN: No further questions Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Madam Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you propose to call any further witnesses in support of Mr Hlelesi's application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Madam Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You close your case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is correct Madam Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to address us now or do you want us to adjourn to enable you to address us in the morning, first thing tomorrow morning?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chairperson, I'm in a position now, I would like it because I have to leave for East London today.

CHAIRPERSON: I seemed to have jumped the gun, I think I have now to go back to Mr Prior now that you have indicated that you'd like to conclude the matter today.
	Mr Prior, do have any evidence to call on behalf of the victims?