Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: All I can say is that that is not so.

MR PHOSA: I don't propose worrying you about something you haven't read and that you haven't discussed with your counsel regarding Mr Bobelo, save to say to you, I have personally interviewed Mr Bobelo and what I interviewed him about confirms - he confirms what appears here.
	I had a talk with him this morning, he confirms what appears here.  Now obviously there's nothing we can do about that because you don't know what's contained in it?  There's nothing we can do about that,  you know nothing that's contained here.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly assist me and refer me to the exact passage that links Mr Bobelo and Erasmus in the affidavit please?

MR PHOSA: I just thought that this gentleman is in charge of all the police who interrogated Mr Bobelo - Mr Mthimkhulu ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, I'm only asking you a question, could you kindly refer me in the evidence in order to assist me to evaluate things, where Mr Bobelo said that he implicated him in this affidavit?

MR PHOSA: I repeat, ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, no please, I'm also going to repeat my question and I'd like an answer to that too.

MR PHOSA: Now I'm not so sure that I'm being cross-examined here now, I'm giving the answers as a lawyer as I understand the legal position.  This witness has claimed from time to time that these people were under him and the reports of interrogation have been reported to him, so when a witness - a person from his area says, the relevant person was assaulted I don't want to see a statement here saying: "I told so and so".
	The matter can be argued later if I'm wrong, I really don't ...[inaudible] further.  I don't see why I should do that, how can I do that.  I the suggestion is - I don't understand why it should be made, that the head of a team - of an area, when members of this team are reported by part of his team to have assaulted ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: The only thing I'm asking is, whether this affidavit - whether Mr Bobelo said somewhere that he reported it to Erasmus, that's all I wanted to know.

MR PHOSA: The record is before the Commission, they had it before I came, the contents of it are there, I've given my views on it, I cannot do much more than that.  I cannot do ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I only asked you to assist me.  If there's some specific passage here where Mr Mabola said - Bobelo said: "I discussed this with the witness".  Kindly assist me in pointing it out so that I can write it down, it'll sort of make it easier for us in the long run to judge the whole matter and I've asked your assistance but if you can't give it to me, it's okay, I'll do it myself.

MR PHOSA: Besides that Mr de Jager - Mr Commissioner - Committee member, I have difficulty in law as to why you want me to do that.  It has no relevance because ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Because it's only decent for counsel to assist - it's only decent for counsel to assist Committee members and that's the reason why I asked you to do so but if you're not prepared to do so, I'll do it myself, I've already said so, so could we kindly continue.

MR PHOSA: Except that Mr Commissioner, my difficulty is you asked me to answer and explain and when I explained you stopped me.  All I'm saying is the way I see it, it is not necessary for the Commission or the Committee to find that kind of answer from the witness - from the potential witness or this security policemen, all that is important is that he accuses that team of assaulting the very Mthimkhulu in an interrogation that has been mentioned here - during a period mentioned here and therefore I would therefore expect that by definition that is relevant to Mr Erasmus.  Now, I ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I'm not disputing that, I've asked you only to assist me in giving me the passage and that's all I've been asking you, I'm ...[inaudible]

MR PHOSA: No, I'm unable to assist.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, may I reluctantly join in the thray?  On the basis of the questions and the fairness to the questions to Mr Erasmus, I wish to point out that nowhere in this affidavit has Mr Gerrit Erasmus been implicated by Mr Bobelo.  In point of fact Mr Bobelo himself, refers to a period of time which you will notice at page 9 the second last paragraph, where he states that Nick van Rensburg was in charge of the security branch.
	So, I don't know Mr Chairman, whether this refers to the occasion when Mr Mthimkhulu was detained in 1981, bearing in mind that it is common cause that he was detained on more than one occasion.  So I didn't want unnecessarily to object ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It says 1981 on the first page of it, a  Friday in 1981.

MR VISSER: Oh yes, oh yes but the problem remains a problem Mr Chairman, and with respect there is no implication of Mr Erasmus in this affidavit nor any reason why this should have been given to him to read or detail - discussed with him in detail.

CHAIRPERSON: I would have thought it was extremely cogent when there are allegations that this man was detained for 5 months, assaulted by the police, an action has been instituted against the Minister and now there is an affidavit from a policeman who says he was there.  I would certainly have discussed it with my client Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, only insofar as the allegation is concerned but not the detail yes, certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're about it don't you Colonel, that an action was instituted against the Minister for damages arising out of the alleged assault during detention?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I know about this action which was instituted.

MR PHOSA: Now you have repeatedly said how remorseful you feel about what has happened - I'm dealing with the elimination of these two young people, isn't that so?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Once more, when that particular aspect of your evidence was tendered, I listened exclusively to the English interpretation so I want to be sure in my mind that you said so.  Did you say that the - when the earliest opportunity for you to clear your heard - your breast of this matter, presented itself you did so?
	I would not like Mr Visser to say: "He didn't say so" and shake his head because the witness is next to him, please.  Commit yourself - I have - I'm referring to evidence, did you say  - and please remember this evidence, did you say that when the earliest opportunity arose for you to indicate your remorse, you did so.  Did you or did you not say that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What I said Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, is that this opportunity which the Commission is offering which I'm putting all the facts on the table, that I'm using that opportunity.

MR PHOSA: It will be important and you can make your decision on it, and I'm not going to ask further, I just want your answer.  Are you saying I am wrong in saying that you said, when the earliest opportunity presented itself you took it? Now you can say you didn't say that or you did say that.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I can't remember whether I've said the earliest opportunity, you may be right but what I'm saying is, an opportunity had been created by the Commission, whether it was the earliest opportunity, perhaps it was.

MR PHOSA: For 15 years Mr Erasmus, you kept this terrible deed as your own secret - you and your colleagues, I'm talking about you now, as you own secret?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Not only that for part of that 15 years - you get up out of that 15 years - sorry my apologies, ...[inaudible] but for part of that 15 years - the early portion of it, you continued as on paper a respectable honest policeman, isn't' it?  You continued working as a - sorry, highly placed policeman, isn't it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.