Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

CHAIRPERSON: It's never possible to do things the way one would like them to do with all these difficulties that conspire against you.  However, Mr Webster is here and may we proceed with the matter in which Mr Webster is involved, as  counsel.
	You were being questioned at the end of yesterday by Mr Webster, you're reminded that you're still under oath, do you understand?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	We broke off yesterday when I had asked you about the radios and being in radio communication, do you recall?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson

MR WEBSTER: Were you in fact in radio communication?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: With all the participating people?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I'm not sure whether we had radio contact with all the vehicles but we were in contact with some people.

MR WEBSTER: One would have expected every vehicle to have had a radio, do you agree with me?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is possible.

MR WEBSTER: I just want us to back up a bit and get back to the police station at kwaMashu.  Obviously somebody was in charge of the operation, do you remember saying that is so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: And was that Breytenbach?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Lt Breytenbach was in charge of the reaction unit.

MR WEBSTER: I'll go back, Mr Botha.  Somebody was in charge of the entire operation, is that not so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The senior man in the entire operation was General Steyn.

MR WEBSTER: Was he in charge of the entire operation?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Globally yes.

MR WEBSTER: I'm not talking of seniority, I want the person who was the man who was in charge to whom communications had to be made who was going to give orders and all that.  Was that the general?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As the senior man at the police station yes, that's correct.

MR WEBSTER: Please Mr Botha, I'm having difficulty.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to him if you think it was somebody else.

MR WEBSTER: Was it not Breytenbach who was in charge of the entire operation?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Lt Breytenbach was in charge of the reaction unit.

MR WEBSTER: And you said he was the person because of the training, of the specialist training, who were going to take charge about stopping the vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: So insofar as stopping and arresting those people who was concerned, that was a responsibility and it fell under direct command of Breytenbach?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: So he was in charge?

MR WEBSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I thought you said who was in charge at the kwaMashu Police Station?

MR WEBSTER: Sorry, that is where it was determined that this is a person who is in charge before they go out, in other words from the moment that you then left the police station it was known that the officer in charge was Breytenbach?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, let me put it this way, a person in charge as far as the arrest and the entire operation, that was Lt Breytenbach of the reaction unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's progress.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Chairperson.
	In other words from the moment that you saw the vehicle you were supposed to report to Breytenbach?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, I think that was the case.

MR WEBSTER: And then Breytenbach was the person who would give instructions as what was to be done?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: In respect of his people in the reaction unit, yes.

MR WEBSTER: Not the entire operation, about the apprehension of those people?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Perhaps I should just explain that Lt Breytenbach was the person in charge of the reaction unit but as regards what happened at kwaMashu Police Station there were more senior people than Breytenbach, but to answer your question as regards the action regarding the arrest of the people, that was the responsibility and task of Lt Breytenbach.

MR WEBSTER: So despite the fact that you were aware that the stopping of that vehicle, the arrest of those people was the responsibility of the specialised unit, you decided to usurp their authority and proceed to try and stop the vehicle untrained and inadequately trained as you were?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The other members who were present were there in support of the reaction unit.

MR WEBSTER: Yes but you didn't have that experience don't you agree?

CHAIRPERSON: They worked as a team.

MR WEBSTER: I understand Chairperson, what I'm saying is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter very much?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, insofar as the full disclosure, this is our point.

CHAIRPERSON: No you see full disclosure must be on something really substantial.  You know, there might be minor differences of who did what and who did when.

MR WEBSTER: That is quite so, Chairperson, I agree completely with you.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think if it was something substantial then you must make that point.

MR WEBSTER: The point that I wish to make here Chairperson is and probably with a little digging we might have gotten a little further but the point that I want to make to Mr Botha is this
	That it had never been your intention to apprehend those people, that in fact it had been decided that those people would be just butchered and killed and that is why, knowing that Breytenbach was the person responsible for the operation, that is namely the arrest of those people, you went above orders contrary to the arrangements and decided to shoot at the occupants of that vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the purpose was not or there was no prior decision taken beforehand that the people had to be killed.

MR WEBSTER: I want to take to the scene now of the shooting as you were then travelling on the road.  You told us that you were in the left lane, the vehicle was in the centre lane, remember?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: And before it stopped you slackened a bit so it was slightly ahead of you?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You then say that the kombi overtook the vehicle, drove in front of the vehicle, stopped so that the vehicle collided into the rear of the kombi, remember?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: Is that when the firing then started?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The shooting had already started before that, before the vehicle collided for the second time the shooting had already taken place.

MR WEBSTER: You didn't know where it came from?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I shot, I fired shots.

MR WEBSTER: We've heard that you shot at the wheels?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: Now you don't know where that shooting came from?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As far as the other shots are concerned, it came from the right hand side of that vehicle, that's where it originated from.

MR WEBSTER: Now it could not then have come from the kombi because the kombi was already ahead of that vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No but the kombi was in front of the vehicle after the shooting had already taken place.  The shooting took place whilst the kombi was on the right hand side of this suspect vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: Now we have an application from Wasserman and from that application it appears that the shots which he fired or that could have been fired into the vehicle could not have been a fuselage or a number of shots but a couple of shots?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I would like to hear from my learned friend where he finds that in Wasserman's affidavit?

MR WEBSTER: Sorry, we'll get the evidence from the applicant himself when he testifies.
	But are you saying that there was heavy firing from the kombi before the kombi drove ahead of this vehicle and stopped?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Shots were fired from the direction of the kombi.