Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, in that regard I am totally satisfied in submitting this document.  We have nothing further to add and think that the document is complete.  It dealt with all the incidents in which he is alleged to have been involved and we have nothing further to add in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Mpshe, is there anything you wish to comment on?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Marais.

MR MARAIS: Although this is a statement under oath by Mr De Kock, it is not challenged in cross-examination and the value of the statement I will argue in the written  heads that will be submitted at a later stage, suffice to say at this stage that it is interesting to note that Mr De Kock is making a point of the fact that Mr Nofomela lied under oath about the incident where Maponya was shot, which lie Mr Nofomela yesterday explained to the Committee.  This point is made by the same person who under oath misled the Harms Commission with Mr Mamasela to the extent that no report of any value could be brought out at that stage which allowed the Security Forces to continue with what they were doing for another four years after the Harms Commission.
	He also challenged all allegations against him in a criminal trial which had to last for over a year before he could be convicted, amongst others of this specific murder.
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His evidence under oath will also have to be seen in this light, which I will argue further in the written heads.

MR HUGO: As far as this incident is concerned, the allegation that Mr De Kock would have disputed the allegations in his criminal trial are devoid of any truth.  He did not give a version with regard to the Maponya murder.  There was no version put to him and he did not deny anything and as was his right the evidence which was led was tested.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wagner, is there anything you wish to say on what has been said by counsel for Mr De Kock?

MR WAGNER: No, Mr Chairman, not at this stage, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We move on to another aspect of the matter, Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if the chair allows, the next matter that is to be dealt with is the matter of Ace Moema and that I leave in the hands of my colleague, Adv Jansen.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, as indicated previously, evidence will be led in full on this matter.  Mr Chairman, it is matter No 4 in the application.  It starts in the application on paginated page 12, typed page 8.  In the manuscript the incident is dealt with at page 107 paragraph 5.4.15.1, it is the matter of Ace Moema.  If I could then recall Mr Coetzee to continue his evidence.

UNKNOWN: s s

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I may at the outset just hand up two documents.  These are again affidavits  handed in at the Harms Commission.  The first one is by Mr Jacob Zuma, member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC, and the Chief of the Intelligence of the ANC at the time.  This affidavit deals both with the cases of Mr Ace Moema and the case of Mr Siswe Kondile and what was known
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to the ANC intelligence at the time concerning these two men.  If I may hand that up as EXHIBIT Q.
	And again just to assist, Mr Chairman, as EXHIBIT R, an affidavit by Mr Martin Tembisile Hani, generally known as Mr Chris Hani, the Chief of Staff of Umkhonto we Siswe at the time, also an affidavit presented to the Harms Commission which deals with the matter of Siswe Kondile.  This document was not available to us at the time dealing with Mr Kondile's matter.  I would ask, Mr Chairman, with your permission, that it be seen in the light thereof.   There is nothing I think contentious in the matter, something that would be of interest to the Kondile family.  I think it is just for a matter of completeness at this stage, just to place before the Committee what was known by the ANC Intelligence Services at the time concerning Mr Kondile's disappearance.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this will go in as Exhibit R.

MR JANSEN: May I then proceed with the evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee, do you know the name Ace Moema?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

MR JANSEN: From where do you know this person?

UNKNOWN: It was the name of an ANC cadre who came to Vlakplaas in the late 1981s, towards the end of the year, as a person that had been debriefed already through all the relative channels and he was then placed in Vlakplaas with me under my control.

MR JANSEN: So what would his work have entailed had it not been for the events that are described later?

UNKNOWN: The same as all the other Askaris, being allocated to a group, one of the four, and operating with
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them in different areas as requested.

MR JANSEN: Would he have been in a position comparable to that of Peter Dlamini?  As far as what he would have come to now of Vlakplaas and its operations?

UNKNOWN: Absolutely.

MR JANSEN: What do you know of the eventual fate of Mr Moema?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I should just say he was a very observant, quiet, if I remember right, non-smoker, non-drinker and asked a lot of questions, which concerned me and the rest of the policemen at Vlakplaas.  At that stage I got the impression that there might be a hidden agenda.  Captain Koos Vermeulen suggested that we should take him out ....(intervention).

MR JANSEN: Meaning?

UNKNOWN: Meaning assassinate him, upon which I recommended that we have a meeting with Brig Schoon on the matter in his office in Headquarters, which we did.

MR JANSEN: Was this a special meeting or was it one of those meetings that you had regularly I think on almost a daily basis with Brig Schoon?

UNKNOWN: No, it was a special meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to consider this suggestion that was made.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Tell the Commission what happened at that meeting?

UNKNOWN: Koos Vermeulen offered and suggested to assassinate Mr Moema, Isaac Ace Moema, as he was known, and the final reply of Brig Schoon was that Vermeulen should do as he seems fit.

MR JANSEN: Again would you be able to recall the exact
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words used with Brig Schoon that day?

UNKNOWN: The whole conversation, not by word, but in broader context that is what it consisted of and the final was that Koos should do what he seems fit.

MR JANSEN: Would it have been clear to somebody in the position of Brig Schoon that you were conveying to him that you intended - or that Vermeulen intended killing Moema?

UNKNOWN: In no uncertain terms, for sure, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: What was your personal attitude as far as the killing is concerned?

UNKNOWN: If Koos sees his way open to do that, that he should continue with it in his group, which eventually he did.

MR JANSEN: So you accepted at that stage, you either expressly or tacitly approved of what was about to happen to Moema.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I hear you to say that he did not or whether he did tacitly approve?

MR JANSEN: Whether he did.  What more do you know about Mr Moema's eventual fate?

UNKNOWN: He accompanied Mr Vermeulen into the Eastern Transvaal region towards, as I said late that year, it must have been November/December and after they had been operating in the area he came back with his group.  Mr Moema was missing and he reported that the issue has been dealt with.

MR JANSEN: To whom did he report?

UNKNOWN: To myself and Brig Schoon.

MR JANSEN: Who else was on his group?

UNKNOWN: It is difficult to say, Mr Chairman, I cannot
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remember exactly,  but it was the usual Western Transvaal group with whom he operated in the area, names of people mentioned in exile was upon others Chris Mnisi, who defected to the ANC later, and as I say one should check records, I cannot remember exactly.