Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, besides you having been told by your commander about the political climate in Bophuthatswana, did you have your own personal knowledge about the circumstances?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was you knowledge about the position in Bophuthatswana?

WALTER SMILES: Bophuthatswana was a Government that oppressed Black people, they had no option, they couldn't join the Northern Cape - Kimberley.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In launching this or in throwing the hand grenade, did you believe that that operation was going to bring about a change in that region?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, what type of change did you envisage?

WALTER SMILES: A new Government.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, in your own judgement, did you deem it necessary to throw the hand grenade in order to bring about the new Government or the change?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Mr Mpshe, because they oppressed our people of Bophuthatswana, Hartswater, the whole of the Northern Cape as well as the University of the Witwatersrand.  They were torturing our people, they took out raids and this why I thought I had no option - as a member of MK, I had to act.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Aren't you making a mistake Sir, the University of Witwatersrand is and was not in Bophuthatswana.

WALTER SMILES: Hartswater is where their people are.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What about Hartswater?  Are you saying people of Bophuthatswana were staying in Hartswater?

WALTER SMILES: No, Bophuthatswana people lived all over the Northern Cape, I mention Hartswater as part of the Northern Cape - Bophuthatswana people stayed there as well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It has been made clear that there has been conflicting statements by yourself, are you now in a position to tell this Committee honestly that you have made a full disclosure?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Mr Mpshe, I gave you the truth - I accept the case now, as it is I've made a full disclosure.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want you to have a look at your application, page 13 - I withdraw Mr Chairman, it has already been asked - I canvassed it right at the beginning, no further questions, thanks.  That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, if this is perhaps necessary for me to mention, it seems to us that Lieutenant Golf, Inspector Erasmus, Sergeant Kabanda, Superintendent Roussouw and Captain Stark have not even been mentioned by this witness.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we did notice yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  It seems to us that the status quo remains, the only concern Mr Chairman is that of course that they be dragged in by implication but I'm quite certain what has happened here, you're not going to do that in your Committee - in your findings.  So, Mr Chairman yes, that accords with how we view this situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.	Did you want to re-examine?

MR TSHOLANKU: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further evidence?

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Chairman, yesterday I pointed out that we will be leading further evidence pertaining to the attitude of the ANC and MK as far as the Peace Secretariat was concerned, unfortunately the witness that we intended to call - we have not located him, we have
tried on a number of occasions to get in touch with him.  
	We feel that Mr Chairman, without taking much of your time, we will not pursue that aspect.  We have tried all that is reasonably necessary in our capacity to get hold of this witness, we can't get hold of.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you closing your case in respect of both applicants?

MR TSHOLANKU: We're closing our case in respect of both applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smiles, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Chairman, if I may, I don't know where do I stand procedurally with what I intend saying to the Committee now but as one of my functions is to bring to the attention of the Committee, whatever information that may be necessary to assist the Committee in arriving at a just decision.  I've just been given documents that had been faxed from Cape Town, now this document may be able to shed light on the cross-examination by Professor de Koker - right towards the end, as to whether Walter Smiles when he threw this hand grenade on that day was it for the first time or not.  If I recall well, it was to the effect that he threw another one at a military base after this very incident - if my memory is correct, I think that is what was said.  I have in my possession a document and a newspaper cutting which I can show to the Committee wherein a hand grenade was thrown at the SADF Support Base and this was on the 5th of May 1993, that was surely before this very incident - if it will be of any assistance to the Committee, I have copies thereof.

ADV DE JAGER: But do you have any indication that he threw the hand grenade?

MR TSHOLANKU: No, there is no indication but there is a covering letter that comes from his commander explaining that it was the first time that he did what he did but ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] the trouble is, if it's - there's an implication that it could be him, he's not applied for amnesty for that.

MR TSHOLANKU: Yes, I concede to that.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

MR TSHOLANKU: I concede to that yes.  That's why I was saying, I don't know where it stands, it may shed light or it may cause more confusion but I'm in the hands of the Committee - I just wanted to make this information available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'll make this remark, after actually I've asked the witness in that regard.
	Mr Smiles, you are still under oath.  Mr Smiles, is it possible that the hand grenade that you threw at the military base was before this incident?  Could you be making a mistake this morning when you told us that the hand grenade at the military base was thrown after this incident?

WALTER SMILES: That is so Mr Mpshe.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not Mr Mpshe.   Just say: "Yes", you can leave it there.  Do you understand my question?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I completely understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your ...[indistinct]

WALTER SMILES: Mr Chairman, that was the second time I've thrown the grenade, it fell on the roof of the military base.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before or after the Trust Bank incident?

WALTER SMILES: Trust Bank was first.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I asked you this question was because yesterday I got the impression that you said the hand grenade at the military base was before and now you are saying that it was after -  all right, thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you recall Mr Smiles, that when I asked you yesterday whether it was the first time for you to throw the hand grenade, you were almost positive that the military base in Vergenoeg incident was the first one and the Trust Bank incident was the second incident in which you were involved in launching a hand grenade.

WALTER SMILES: I apologise because I misunderstood.  I have to explain, military base was second, Trust Bank first - this is how I can remember today.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well now, you are excused Sir, you can step down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Professor de Koker, do you have any witnesses to call?

PROF DE KOKER: Chairman, my client is available as a witness but I think it is clear at this stage as we've progressed during the past two and half days, that the type of information that she can provide is in a sense peripheral to the specific issues on the table at the moment but my client is available as a witness.
	On the other hand, we have also affidavits which were prepared some months ago when the hearing was still going to proceed in August in which my client simply furnishes information which seems at this stage to be common cause.  That might therefore be another way of putting the information in front of you and perhaps saving time in that way, if you will perhaps permit me to quote one or two paragraphs from the affidavit.