bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

MS GOBODO: Thank you Glenda, thank you  [indistinct] .  This - the story of our lives cover up destruction's   and all of that.  I often find it very difficult to reflect on the pain and suffering that witnesses bring on stage to the hearings of the Truth Commission.
We - many times we are moved into associating the suffering and pain that witnesses have gone through with heroism but that I our interpretation of what people go through.  [indistinct] heroism and  yet there were many moments of venerability that people go through and we loose sight of that venerability.  
 This is why that sometimes when people come up here they are moved to tears because remembering the pain and suffering brings back the memory of the humiliation, degradation and the loss of dignity that they had to go through.
 Your story is the same as the others but it is also important at the same time to remember the pain that is being experience by people is not the same.  Your pain is not the same as somebody else's pain.  It is different because within your pain that you feel there are a lot of things that had happened.  As you are saying you are going back, you are not progressing.  You have lost a job, you'll have to start a fresh again looking for  a job.
 So meaning there's a lot of things that look place.  The first one is the one that were prosecuted, you were [indistinct], you lost your dignity by the time you were being prosecuted.  You had to start a fresh with your life because of all that, I want to say we sympathize with you, we thank you very much by coming forward to show us the other way that the people of Paarl were harassed. 
We thank you very much, we promise that we are going to try and make - and do something about all the files that are lost right now.  We are going to try and get a clear picture of what happened,  thank you very much.
We would like to propose that we  [indistinct]

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson,  I'm going to ask, for a short while after having talked to Rev Qumza to find out about if - certain issues and to find out what was he actually - what he actually wanted to say.  We found that - that Rev Qumza wanted that there should be reparation done to Malusi's mother and he was giving some explanation that in that whole process of trying to assist that family after this incident, during the State of Emergency he himself had - he incurred some expenses and he even borrowed money from people so as to meet this family towards the funeral expenses.
And he therefore could not go back to the college because he had exsorceted his finances.  This is what he was trying to say - at the time he was asking that this Truth Commission  should give some compensation to him after investigating about this matter.  
 And make some recommendation to the State President about his contribution so we thank him for that.

MS GOBODO: [indistinct] your statement and for misrepresenting your intentions.  I therefore also  [indistinct] now on stage please with the briefer, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you Ms Konjwayo and your son - we try as much as possible to console people because of the pain that they endured.  We also would like to be - it's God that - who will be the real comforter - who has to strengthen you though your suffering and also those people who are with here.  This Commission is going to investigate as to what happened and who did what and also your request in connection with Vuyo pertaining his education are going to be considered and forwarded to the President to offer the State.  We thank you.
 Thank you very much  [indistinct]  see you 9 o'clock tomorrow.  Please stand and let the witnesses go  [indistinct] .  Order please, order please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

MS MANYEFANE: Amongst these AZAPO children as I recall this child is called Ivan but this child's name is in the statement.  He is from the Q-block.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ma'am, I thank you very much for the statement.  Our investigators will go to the police and to court and try to retrieve the statement.  Thank you ma'am.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

MS GOBODO: Than you Mr Chairman, thank you Denzil, thank you Reverent.  Reverent if you had not come here, we would not have heard about Mathelele and his death.  As I sit here and listen to your testimony - when you started your testimony I was saying to myself it is so good that people are empathetic towards others such that they would help the other people to appoint where you come to the Commission.  
But in the middle of your testimony I was shocked when you said you want reparation for having help this man.  I then get quite confused because at a Christian example is that one helps another person without expecting anything back. 
I then wonder what kind of example are you giving us that you - you do such  a good deed and then you want to be paid back for that deed.  But we thank you for that because these are difficult times.  It goes to show that life is tough, Ubunto?? from the heart is no longer there.
You do a good deed only to be paid back, it shows that life is tough for our people.  I criticize you but constructively sir, the Commission is not - unfortunately - is not here to pay back for the good deeds that people did a while back.  The pains of the people that were victims and their losses after the - the previous unrest.  The Commission therefore will endeavor to help Malusi's mother.  It will not be able to help you - to pay you back for the good deeds towards Malusi's mother, but  we do thank you sir.  If you had not come, we would not have been able to hear of Malusi's death.
We will investigate everything and we will ask you with reverence to pass on the message to Malusi's mother.  Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

REV QUMZA: The reason why I spoke like this - I spoke like this because I was reveling my heart and I was putting my feelings and desires at the table openly, thank you very much.

MS GOBODO: I've been asked to apologize again for the lack of the translating devices - the headphones in the room.  We do hope that we - we trust that you can take seriously the promise that was made yesterday that we'll get additional headphones.
We really apologize, it's going to be very difficult to get a mixed audience in the long term if we cannot get the proper translating - I mean sufficient headphones in - at these hearings.  And also I would welcome the group from the Journalism department at Stellenbosch University.  Welcome and hopefully you would be able to mingle with the - with the journalist who are covering the events.  We trust that you can meet some of them if you need to.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

WENDY ORR: The next witness ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Silence please, Dr Wendy Orr has a soft voice and you wouldn't be able to hear her if you are not completely quiet.
If you are going out try and do it quietly, if not I will call our new police to stop you.

WENDY ORR: Patric I just want to check that you can hear me through the headphones.  Can you hear the translation?  Can you hear me?

MR QUMZA: I cannot hear you, you keep going on and off.

WENDY ORR: Patric can you hear me now?  Thank you very much for being here today, you've had a very long day, you're our last witness today but that doesn't mean you're the least important.  Thank you for sitting so patiently.  Would you stand now to the oath?
PATRIC QUMZA Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Patric we have already heard today from Ms Ndinisa and Ms Phike who's sons were both killed on the 26th of December 1985.  You were also one of those people who was attacked in the UDF, AZAPO, PAC, ANC conflict of that time.  You were attacked on that same night but you survived.  Can you tell us what happened to you that night 26 December 1985?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

WENDY ORR: Welcome to you Mr Faas and to you  Louisa, thank you for coming here today to tell us your story.  Mr Faas could you stand to take the oath - the affirmation.
ALEXANDER FAAS  Affirmed for truth

WENDY ORR: I'll now hand you over to Adv Denzil Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Wendy, Mr Faas good afternoon and Ms Faas good afternoon to you to.  A hearty word of welcome to you here, your evidence is related to the shooting incident in which your son, Adri Faas, was shot and killed by a policeman on the 28th of August 1985.  
 Perhaps tell us a little bit more about your son, how old was he when he died?

MR FAAS: He was 18 old, he was at University of the Western Cape.  He was a first year at the University.

ADV POTGIETER: What course was he doing?

MR FAAS: He was doing Law, he wanted to become a lawyer.

ADV POTGIETER: And what was his progress like?

MR FAAS: He was doing very well, he  attended University as from the beginning of 1985.

ADV POTGIETER: So his prospects were excellent, the prospects of his studies?

MR FAAS: No he had non - no problems with that what so ever.

ADV POTGIETER: Then the 28th of August 1985 came, that was a stage when there was turmoil in Paarl and what happened on that specific day and how did it happen that he was shot and died?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

MS GOBODO: One last question.  Could you describe to us also how the riot squad operated.  Where - where was the main operation base and where was it commandeered, can you just give us a picture of how that was structured?

CAPT CLAYTON: They, at that stage, were stationed at the old Police Dog Unit in town - that's where they were stationed.  Their offices were there and that's where they operated from to Paarl East.

MS GOBODO: Thank you, my colleague Denzil has asked me to found out from you it you know what happened to Lieutenant Oosthuizen?

CAPT CLAYTON: I think he has retired.

CHAIRPERSON: We admire your bravery and your courage and I think one would have said that one of the witnesses - what one of the witnesses said was that they think that the policemen who shot these people had a firearm like - like this was used in this case people would have thought  they were - they were lying.
And we appreciate that you have come here, to come and affirm what Mr Faas has said.  We - our appreciation is even more so because we are trying to form a new system with our police but the relationships between the police and the community so that that could also change.  And we would like to express our gratitude towards you for having taken the  [indistinct]  to advance this process.  
We - we are very grateful and - and  we hope that one day we will see you Commissioner

CAPT CLAYTON: I would like to just put one last point as why I am doing this - my reason is because it has bugged me ever since that day and every time I see Mr Faas he reminds me there - about that.  I saw him in CAN two weeks ago and I looked and I hesitated for two minutes whether I should speak to him or not and I decided I will speak to him.
 And I thought this is the best way in which way to do it, to do it here and I would also like to say to you that up until 1987 I compiled a report in which I asked certain - for certain things that are taking place.  My report is dated the 20th of February 1987 where I named a few things as to how the police force should be and that such things should happen - like what was happening today and who was going to protect who, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

ADV POTGIETER: How do you feel about this incident, about this police just shooting down your sister in the street and the court finding that nobody could be kept responsible?

UNKNOWN: I felt very sorry that they said they could not do anything because it was on of their people who had shot my sister.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, Mr Dennis can you just come nearer to the microphone please.  Thank you very much, we have listened to what your wife has said and we know the circumstances surrounding this case.  Is there anything you would like to add to this evidence?  Please go ahead.

UNKNOWN: It was a very hard time for us and at the moment I also get a disability grant because I have problems with my back.  I looked after those five children - Yvonne's five children and what I would like to request is a tombstone for her grave.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Mr Dennis.  Is that all you wish to add?  Thank you very much for coming here today.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.

ADV POTGIETER: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other further questions?  Mr and Ms Dennis once again one needs to say that it is unbelievable that incidents like this could take place in our country.  And as you alleged that the police could say things like they did when you went to the police station to report your sisters death.  Things about hotnot and things like that.  We would like to say that we feel very sorry and very sad especially about - about your suffering.  
And we hope the fact that we have a new dispensation today - now today we are a free nation and your sister's death made a contribution to this process of liberation.  But we will try to establish who was responsible for your sister's death.   We have listened to your requests, to your husband's request for a tombstone but thank you very much for coming here today.  
Thank you that you are people who do not have revenge in your hearts.  We want to say that we are a very happy country to know that there are people like you and Mr Viljoen and others who can say
No we are willing to forgive.
Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to speak the truth  today.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] and we - we appreciate the fact that you actually have gone to these lengths to protect the interest of this - of the child - the miner child.  Now have you got anything else that you want to bring to our attention?

MR MASOKANYE: That is all that was problematic to me, it was the R20,000-00.  That is why I'm here today.  I will not be able to pay the R20,000-00, if I will have to pay it, it will mean that this child's live will not be as good as it would be with the R20,000-00 remain with us.

ADV POTGIETER: When Liziwe was shot, what was the situation like in Khayamandi?

MR MASOKANYE: There was a lot toi-toiing that day, the police were driving up and down in their Casspirs.  Some of the streets were being burnt with tyres, that is what was going on that particular day in Khayamandi.

ADV POTGIETER: And - and just in conclusion, what did the court find which policemen were responsible for the shooting.  Can you still remember the names?

MR MASOKANYE: He's still around but I've forgotten his name but their commander was Els.

ADV POTGIETER: From Stellenbosch?

MR MASOKANYE: Yes, it was a policeman from Stellenbosch.

ADV POTGIETER: How old was Liziwe when she was killed?

MR MASOKANYE: Liziwe was about 18 years of age.

ADV POTGIETER: No other questions, thank you Mr Masokanye.

MS GOBODO: Thank you Denzil, anyone questions. No, I just want to ask one question sir.  What is Liziwe's child's name.

MR MASOKANYE: It is Andiswa Felicia Masokanye.

MS GOBODO: When was this court case, was it this year - exactly when was it?

MR MASOKANYE: It was last year November.

MS GOBODO: This - so this is last years incident all together?

MR MASOKANYE: Yes, it is.

MS GOBODO: Thank you very much, your story depicts to us how children would loose their parents in a terrible way.  So many children are orphans as a result of that.  It also reflex the injustices of the previous regime.  This is why the Bishop said yesterday sometimes to go to a court of law was never an answer as such to help people.  
 Perhaps to come to the Truth  Commission is what will help people.  Thank you for making that option to come to the Truth Commission.  We promise that we will at leased  [indistinct]  to help you with your request, thank you sir.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, I did say that truly women are wonderful people because  they have the courage even during the struggle they showed that courage and they were - man would think that they were actually the hero's and yet the heroines were the women.  So we thank for your contribution and we are going to  continue investigating how it happened that people were made to fight each other as the white people were responsible for the black - to black violence.
 Because even as a black you would go asking for help, they would always made us a laughing stock and say you are killing each other.  Even now some of them are still saying that.  We are therefore going to hear from the police one day as to what was happening exactly at the time, but for now we must thank you and comfort you and you must know your efforts led us to what we are today and to where we are today.  We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-16

WENDY ORR: Good morning to you Mr McClune and I believe you have your wife Lilian with you, is that correct?

MR MCCLUNE: Yes.

WENDY ORR: Welcome Ms McClune, it's - it's a particular pleasure to welcome you as Mayor of Wolseley to these hearing which are taking place in your area.  It's very important that community leaders support in their community when they come forward to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission so we're very  pleased to have you here.
 Before I lead you in your evidence would you please stand to take the oath.
ADAM McCLUNE Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much, please sit down.  Mr McClune your are going to give us a factual account of what happened in Wolseley on the 24th of November 1990.  Before you - you tell us what happened can you tell us what your position in the community was at that time.  Where you a leader or what was your situation?

MR MCCLUNE: Yes, that year I was the leader of the Wolseley Civic Organization on - that was established on the 27th of September that year.

WENDY ORR: [indistinct] meeting on the 24th of November?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-16

MR MCCLUNE: Yes, advocate maybe I could just mention that Sergeant Kriegler - the Station Commander, he was the Station Commander at the time.  Captain Hougaard was in front of the Community Hall.  He was in charge at the Community Hall, I see that they do not mention - they do not make mention of Sergeant Kriegler as being the Station Commander.  I was involved in talks afterwards with Sergeant Kriegler who was the Station Commander at the time and he said to me  Mr McClune a terrible thing happened there at the Community Hall, if I was in charge that day there wouldn't have been a shooting incident.  That is what I can say about that.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Mr McClune.

WENDY ORR: Can I have just one more question of clarification.  The man who died Mr Booysen, was he one of those people who gathered on the lawn outside Dr Nell's surgery or was he not part of that group.

MR MCCLUNE: That is a very interesting question, I forgot to mention it in my address.  Edward Booysen does not know about the incident on that day.  He went to play cricket on that day and I do not know where they played - they played elsewhere not in Wolseley and when he came back he - he was still in his white cricket gear and he was shot in his cricket gear.  Where they found - that is how they found him in the cannel - in his white cricket clothes.  He was not even part of the placard demonstration on that day.

WENDY ORR: But  [indistinct] shot in the events that surrounded the march, has that issue been cleared up or - or is there still uncertainty about it?

MR MCCLUNE: What is so interesting  is that 2 of the policemen at the time of the shooting the - at the time of the shooting the police moved around in the community and 2 of the policemen went to the former school principal.  They ran in at his house and they shot at people from his yard as well.  And where Edward Booysen was shot they had to had fired the shots from the school principals yard.  That is  where they shot him.

MS GOBODO: We wish to express our sincere appreciation for coming up here to give us a very loused account of what happened on that day.  Thank you very much and you're really welcome and appreciate your contribution to set the pace for the rest of the witnesses, thank you.

MR MCCLUNE: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Witbank — 1997-06-05

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  We're very sorry to hear that your son died.  Thank you very much for coming and telling us to-day what happened to him.  We hope that you get strength from what happened to-day and that you get stronger as the days and years go by.  Thank you very much.  This would be an appropriate time to stop for tea.  We'll come back at twelve o'clock.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Witbank — 1997-06-05

UNKNOWN: I tried to get treatment from the medical doctors but they told me there's nothing much they an do for me because I'm paralysed and the bullet is still inside but there's nothing that can be done to take it out.  During winter I always experience pains in that hand.

MS MKHIZE: The Commission would like you to help them by showing them where the bullet is.

UNKNOWN: The bullet is where he is showing you.  It's still inside.

MS MKHIZE: As a person who was employed by the Government, did you receive anything after you got injured?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't get anything.

MS MKHIZE: How long have you been working at the hospital?  How long have you been working as a nurse?

UNKNOWN: Stafnurse is my name.  I was not employed as a Staff Nurse at the Hospital.  I'm just a domestic servant.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.  Mrs Mzwakali can you please just tell us, and I don't want you to mention the name of the doctor.  Why did this doctor refuse to treat you?  Sorry, can I repeat the question?  I said at this time ... (interrupted)

UNKNOWN: I really don't know why the doctor refused to treat me.  He just said no, my condition is serious and I should be transferred to the hospital.  He refused to treat us.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Is there anything else you wish to say?

UNKNOWN: No, nothing else.

DR RANDERA: Ma'am I thank you for coming here to-day.  In the last fifteen months we've heard of so many stories where people have been shot as they're walking past a situation where there may be unrest, walking to the shops, standing in their gardens.  Sometimes very fatally, sometimes left with disabilities as you have been left with.  We've heard your story, we've taken note and we will come back to you.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: I would like suggest that we break for lunch.  Can you please leave your little boxes and headphones behind as you go for lunch.  Thank you very much.  We come back at two thirty.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Witbank — 1997-06-05

MS MKHIZE: You said something that is not clear.  How did you survive being a thief?

UNKNOWN: I wasn't chronically sick, I could touch and walk and I could do a few other things in order to make my moves.

MS MKHIZE: When did you get chronically sick?

UNKNOWN: In 1986.

MS MKHIZE: How did it happen?

UNKNOWN: I was stabbed on my head and I was paralysed on my left side.

MS MKHIZE: Could you explain that incident to us?  Is it because of being a thief or were you struggling?

UNKNOWN: No it has nothing to do with political things or any struggle.

DR RANDERA: Mr Buhali, is there anything else you want to say before I finish?

UNKNOWN: Yes,  if it is possible, with my Standard Eight qualification, I would appreciate being employed.  I'd highly appreciate any kind of compensation.

DR RANDERA: Mr Buhali, your torture that you've described so aptly is reminiscent of so many other stories that we've heard.  I want to say that this idea you put forward of Black Power in 1976, clearly from the documents we have in front of us, the Black People's Convention, SASO and other Black conscientious groupings seemed to have quite a lot of influence in this area and clearly you were influenced by that grouping as well.  The reason why that question of the UDF has come all the time is because UDF was not formed until the '80's and that's why people have kept asking about the UDF.  Thank you very, very much for coming and sharing your experiences to-day.  We have noted your request for employment but as I said earlier, the Commission does not have that sort of power but we will actually make a note of that when coming to a Reparations' policy.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Witbank — 1997-06-05

DR RANDERA: Ladies and gentlemen, although it's not part of your programme, we had planned it as such to-day but we were waiting on Mr Mark Shinners who's with us now.  In 1977 there was a very big trial in Bethal of eighteen people who were members or thought to be members of the PAC, Pan African Congress, South Africa.  Mr Mark Shinners was one of the people ............  Mr Shinners, good afternoon.  Thank you very much for coming.  Mr Shinners you heard my introductory remarks already so I'm not going to waste any more time.
 As the panelists may well ask you questions at the end of your statement, I feel that you need to take the oath nonetheless.   Could you just stand and repeat after me, I swear that the story I'm about to tell is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.  The floor is yours.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

MR MRUBATA: I was also surprised, I couldn't understand why it couldn't go further.  The lawyers who were handling this was Advocate Joel Henk Smith but that one went away, he went to South West.  Joe Krige was also amongst those and Allan Dodson was the only one who was now left behind.
The Judge who presided said this was finalised and I could not understand then why didn't it continue to present the claim.  We found the lawyers - State lawyers and the Judges -  we just got inside during the court hearing.  When I went out - I was a bit disorientated, I didn't quite understand what was going on even during  the court hearings. 
I asked Henk what was happening, and he stated that he had tried his best but the State doesn't want us to continue with the case.  So that is how  was the case was unsuccessful.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] in that court.

MR MRUBATA: Yes I did.

ADV POTGIETER: Or let me ask you who else gave evidence,  who did you accuse at that court.  Did you accuse these vigilantes ?

MR MRUBATA: Yes, I was laying charge against the vigilantes.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] as well?

MR MRUBATA: Yes they did.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you remember who - who gave evidence specifically?

MR MRUBATA: It was Panie, Lusizi, Klaas.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anyone else you could remember, or was that all?

MR MRUBATA: Ndoyisile was also there, he was just with the lawyers.  I didn't see him at the witness stand.

ADV POTGIETER: We thank you for that information

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ntando.  We are here to share with you the pain that you endured for the past few years, it is very painful to see you confined in a wheelchair but we are grateful that you could still smile with all your handsome face.
We think that because of the pain that was inflicted on you, you could be a person whose always angry and bitter,  but we are grateful that we can see that you have this spirit,  the humanity, the ubuntu which we think that it is going to help us and assist us to heal the nation.  
We would like to realise that the pains that you had endured should not be regarded as just something which is worthless, it should be realised and regarded as one of  the most important tools which have assisted us and expedite the liberation of our country from the repressive laws of the previous regime.
We are here today listening to you and we can regard ourselves as liberated because for the mere fact that we are witnessing your evidence it means that we are liberated.  Thank you very much for your contribution.

MR MRUBATA: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-26

MARY BURTON: And this was because you and your companions had tried to resist the pass laws and the segregation of premises  like the cafe and the railway station were you involved in other political activities?

NYEMBEZI MAKHUBALO: As we knew that we were completely against the passes and we knew that our action was so unacceptable to them that we could be killed if we were caught by them but we thought, let them kill us if they want to kill us because the situation that we are in is intolerable.  The way that we lived was so terrible that we were willing to take these risks to get rid of the laws the were oppressing us.

MARY BURTON: And then after a while when you  lost your job, were you then later able to find work again?

NYEMBEZI MAKHUBALO: I did find work later and also when they started issuing new reference books.

MARY BURTON: And now you are a pensioner you receive a pension?

NYEMBEZI MAKHUBALO: Yes, I'm now receiving a pension.

MARY BURTON: Mr Makhubalo thank you very much indeed for this picture that you've given us of Zwelethemba in the 1960's - I'll just see whether any of my colleagues want to ask any other questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much father, we thank you very much for your evidence.  I just want to ask one question, did you come from Worcester?  Where did you come from?

NYEMBEZI MAKHUBALO: I came from Herschel and I came to find work here in this area.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I thank you very much and I thank you very much for the way that you have reported to us the way in which you were treated.  That terrible time, that dark time in 1960 where so many people do not know these days what happened, especially the young people.  They have forgotten the history of what happened in those days what people like yourselves were up against.  We are therefore very grateful that someone like yourself has come forward to tell us what happened.  Your particular story that you have told us we will be giving over to this Committee of Reparation and we will be returning to you when we have some idea of what we can do to assist you, thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

ADV POTGIETER: Let me just check with you Mr Lengs, do you hear the translation through the headphones.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay, well good afternoon and welcome here, is it your wife that's accompanying you - sitting next to you.

UNKNOWN: Yes it is my wife.

ADV POTGIETER: Well welcome to you as well Ms Lengs.  Before we deal with your evidence, you will have to take the oath, so I am going to ask you Mr Lengs just to - just Mr Lengs to get up please.
TUTU PHILLIP LENGS Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much you can sit down.  Mr Lengs my colleague Pumla Gobodo will assist you with giving your evidence and I hand over to her now.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson.  You have come to tell us about how a group of people called NKATHA assaulted you, shot at you.  We've had similar stories before this morning and in the past and it seems to us that the police worked in collaboration with a number of people to suppress anti apartheid activism not only in Ashton in the Boland, but in many other parts as well.
 We've also heard how sometimes in fact very often people when they wanted to know - to find explanation to the type of things that happened to them and their loved ones, how the Courts were never helpful instead we heard how the Courts tendered to be on the side of those who perpetrated the crimes.
 We've also heard how police worked in communities, within communities to split communities and create opponents within communities using members of the community to hate fellow compatriots, fellow members of the community.  It's very sad that this has taken place in our country and we understand how difficult it is for you and others to live among people who were perpetrators and working with the police.  We ask you to help us to understand what has happened to you through the actions of those people called Incatha.  In the beginning we ask you to tell us that those people known as Incatha, what were they doing

UNKNOWN: Those people who were known as Incatha were people who beat others in the township even if you'd done nothing, you were beaten.  I you were just sitting there and doing nothing they would get angry and beat you.  Those were the people known as Incatha.  They were helping the police to oppress us and to beat us and there was nothing that we could do in return.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In other words those people known as Inchata were working together with the police?

UNKNOWN: That name suited them, this Incatha because they were people who worked with the police to oppress us.  So this connection between Incatha and Buthalezi and the youth comrades was that it was seen that those people were working on the side of the police against the comrades.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Those people known as Incatha, were those people also known as vigilantes?

UNKNOWN: Yes those were the very people known as vigilantes, those people who beat others.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So sometimes they were known as Incatha and sometimes they were known as vigilantes.  We would ask you Tata Lengs to tell us exactly what happened.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mr Lengs I just have one question for you and that is to find out whether you  have had any special tests whether the doctors did any special tests after you were discharged from hospital, till today, have you had any special tests done on you?

UNKNOWN: No there were no special tests except that I got pills on that day from Beyers and Bos, I got pills on that day and that was all.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And do you know what type of tablets those were?

UNKNOWN: No they were just ordinary tablets, they were pink in colour.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay, so you - you don't know exactly what is the cause of these pains that you are having now, the pains in your joints?

UNKNOWN: Ever since I was beaten those pains are there.  I'd been beaten on the kidneys and ever since then I've had these pains and I've never received treatment for it.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much Mr Lengs.

ADV POTGIETER: I would just  like to enquire from Ms Lengs on the instruction of my colleague, request of my colleague Ms Gobodo, whether you - you wish to  say anything, add anything to the evidence, because if so, then I am going o have to ask you to take the oath as well.

UNKNOWN: I'm sorry there's nothing I'd like to say, he's said everything because his sickness that he's got ever since the day he was beaten, he'd just go to work for 2 or 3 days, there's nothing he can do.  He doesn't have a permanent job and yet he is still supporting his kids who are still at school, thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Ms Lengs thank you very much as well for - for that statement, I'll just check if there is  anything else that my colleagues want to clarify before I  finish off.  
 Okay, Mr and Ms Lengs we must thank you for coming waiting until the afternoon to share your story with us, with the Commission and with the people who are here.  It's a story that we have - or a circumstance I should say that we've heard often today, which prevailed in Zolani.  We've heard a lot of witnesses speaking today about the conflict which existed there between the vigilante's, Amasolomzi and a section of the community.
 We are surprised that an innocent activity like watching TV can spark off an incident like the one that you have testified about, that's the only possible explanation that you can think of for the viscous attack that was launched on you.  We have noted your request, we have limited capacity and  limited means as a Commission, but we will certainly seriously consider your evidence and your request and see if there is  anyway in which we can somehow try to help you to  ease the pain that you obviously still have, which we have witnessed this afternoon.
 But to  both of you, thank you very much and go well.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-26

NOWOWO EMILY TSENZE: Yes before we were beaten.

MARY BURTON: What I am really trying to find out is why the police should have been so angry as to behave in that way, do you think it was because of that?

NOWOWO EMILY TSENZE: I cannot say.  They could be angry with meetings but I cannot say.

MARY BURTON: So from your experience it was just - it came as a complete surprise that this happened to you.

NOWOWO EMILY TSENZE: Yes we were taken by surprise with this assault as we were not prepared for it at all.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Mamma you can take off your earphones again.  Thank you very much for coming and telling us how people have been bullied in these ways that you have described.  As Mrs Burton has asked you, was this thing done to you out of anger by the police that they should have treated you this way and that I think is the truth of it.
 When they're angry they feel free just to storm in and bully people in the area and the reason for this beating is clear to us now at this point that people who were staying in their houses were simply stormed in upon and bullied in this way and told to clean the place where they stayed as if you don't know that you should be doing that.
 The request that you've made to the Commission we will investigate and see if there is anything that can be done to answer to your request.   We will write to you  and tell you of the progress that we make in this matter and the decisions that the Commission will arrive at, thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

CHAIRPERSON: [indistinct]  to a news item that has been fairly prominent.   As a consequence of the various news reports circulating this morning about the letter received by the Commission last Friday,  I will read a brief statement on the situation
A lawyer representing twenty two members and ex members of the South African Police has written to me saying that his clients are prepared to approach  the Commission with Amnesty applications.
He has told me their actions  are supported by  Mr Vlok and various former Generals of the SAP  who will accept where applicable collective responsibility and also  may also apply for Amnesty.
The lawyer has also provided us with the list of incidents to be covered by the proposed applications.  No Amnesty applications have been received yet.  Reports that Generals themselves have written to us,  are not correct and it is also incorrect that twenty  Generals are  involved.
The Commission will not at this stage provide any further details of the letter.  The lawyer who wrote to us have not yet had a reply whether the news emerged which we regret and we would prefer  to conduct discussions directly with lawyers and not through the media.
We are determined handle this matter carefully and correctly 
and we will of course be consulting with the Chairperson of the 
Amnesty Committee, Judge Hussan Mall.
The potential Amnesty applicants will be treated in the same 
way as any other Amnesty applicants namely in a 
dispassionate and even handed manner.  Thank you
Please stand and wait until the witnesses and their supporters families leave.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Douglas Ndakuthini Zweni 62 a community Councillor from Zolani township was found stabbed to death in a field in the morning of Saturday 26th April 1986.  Mr Douglas Zweni was implicated in a number of Amasolomzi actions in Zolani.  Police later raided Zolani community and arrested 81 people of whom 47 were juveniles.
 By the time of Mr Zweni's death the Supreme Court of Cape Town had already issued out an interdict restraining Amasolomzi from their activities in Zolani.  A member of the Zolani community claims that Amasolomzi and the police continued with their activities despite the interdict.
 Four people were later charged in connection with the murder of Mr Zweni and other charges.  They were acquitted on murder charges but found guilty on charges of malicious damage to property and sentenced to community service for two years.  Basically, the community service they had to perform was to pick up dirt from the streets in Ashton.  The four accused were
* Mr Lemi Mhlomi
* Mr Timothy Thyalisisu
* Mr Charles Msoki
* Mr Basie Mangcola
 The controversy surrounding Mr Zweni's murder is that
Mr Zweni was alleged to have been a member of Amasolomzi who patrolled the streets of Zolani at night.Amasolomzi moved in groups during their patrols and Mr Zweni would be expected to have been part of a group.Due to Amasolomzi patrols it would be expected that no members of the community would be found roaming the streets at night.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-26

PETRONELLA ESTERHUIZEN: There is reference to Hennie and Hennie's contribution, the way in which they'd experienced it.  He saw Hennie as they were on Robben Island together, as well as the warden in his book mentioned the contribution that Hennie made.  As the previous speaker said that language was a problem, they were able to use Hennie who also had the kind of personality that enabled him to communicate with people so he was a sort of link between various groups of people.
 The struggle I have inside me is that I find that Hennie's death, we still speak of him every day, it's as if he is still alive in our hearts because he was such a person with strong values, values on which we can live and on which we can rest and which are foundations for our lives.  I feel that his children who are everything to their grandmother, have been forgiven and there is a responsibility that people bear towards these children.  I might die to-morrow.  These are my fears and Hennie's mother's fears.  I've learnt to work hard and I'm able to work but if I die what happens to my children.  
 If there is some sort of recognition for Hennie's children, because Hennie might have died but his children didn't die with him.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you Patti I have no further questions but maybe my colleagues might have questions for you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you is there anybody - no.  MRS FERUS and Patti we thank you very much for coming to share your pain and as Patti has indicated to share it publicly for the first time.
 Patti I was extremely humbled by many of the things that you said in your testimony.  I think you right to say that these kinds of experiences are a test for ability to forgive.  I think you right, therefore we should not take it for granted that when people come up here, coming up with the - a sense of forgiveness, I think what you also pointing out is that we begin to process of forgiveness after processing - our experience of the pain, our re-experience of the pain, what it meant for us to share the pain publicly.
 And thank you very much for reminding us of our responsibility to the witnesses who come up here, not only for the particular day that they come to give evidence, and their testimony, but the fact that we have to ensure that once that pain has been retouched, we then have other processes that will make sure that, that pain is content, thank you Patti and thank you MRS FERUS.

MRS FERUS: Thank you very much

PETRONELLA ESTERHUIZEN: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

MR NTSOMI: Yes, I have a couple of things I would like to ask from the Commission.  As I have said before, I don't think and I don't accept the situation that the proceedings of the case took place.  I don't know whether I have a wrong believe.
I was found not guilty from the Supreme Court, so I can't see why the court decided to dismiss my claim with all the costs, so I would like the Commission to investigate the matter if it is possible and to open the case and lay a charge again.
And I would like to see and I would like the Commissioners also see that it goes in the right direction and this cost of about R45,000 as if I paying a car or a house bond -  I am not prepared to pay that amount.
And I would like the Commission to assist me in that situation too.
What I would also like to ask from the Commission now that I was injured I need some assistance like my artificial leg that I've got, I must  change it annually.  And I am paying a very high cost and it is very expensive because I must go to Tygerberg Hospital from here to Tygerberg and I am - there are fees - I must pay - I paid R218,00 last year so I think that fee won't stay there, it will increase as time goes on.
At times I had to go to Red Cross, they had a prostheses department where I had to go and fit in the leg and then -  I am working here in Worcester but I have to travel all the long way to Cape Town.   I come back here, they phoned me again, I had to go back again to Cape Town, fit the leg again.  If it is not okay, I have to stay there for some days - maybe I will just make an example.
If I arrive in Cape Town Monday I must stay some days in Cape Town, I must ask for relief at work and stayed in Cape Town fitting the leg up until  it's okay, because it's a special treatment that I am getting.   
I just can't stand that situation and I can't even manage to go through that process because at home I am the breadwinner at the moment.
I don't know whether you will be able to do anything - to do, if you are able, I  will ask you to do something for me to solve my problem.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct]

MR NTSOMI: Okay.

DR BORAINE: Mr Ntsomi, we have listened very carefully to your story.  You bear not only on your body but in your mind and spirit the marks of the past.  We will certainly look at the requests that you have made.  The Commission has not unlimited funding or resources, but what we do have we will make use of in order to assist you in whatever we can.
We thank you very much for coming today, we know it is very hard and we are full of admiration that even though you have gone through such a bad and bitter time,  you are now working -  you are able to walk, you show great courage and we commend you very much.  Thank you very much for coming.
 Ladies and gentleman I think this is a good time for the adjournment - we will adjourn.