Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll come back to that, but I just want to finish the passage on 1591 until the top of 1592, and then I'll ask you to comment.
"No, I do not understand the motivation of the unknown persons, if they bring the Goldie file and show to me that there is no reference to Dr Webster."
		"I do not know why you do not understand it."
You say to the Judge.
"Now I would like - I have put my problem to you and we all know who Region 6's persons were and you functioned on a cell structure, you did not know what the problem was."
		"Yes, but there were unaware members whom I do not know of."
		"Yes, but these unaware members could not confiscate the files because they did not know about the emergency plan. An unaware member could in any plan be informed.  In other words, you say that unaware members had access to CCB files?"
		"Not to CCB files, but probably specific files, that is possible."
		"But all the internal files?"
		"No, I cannot say because they left together.  I don't know, but it could be, it's possible."
		"But that is preposterous."
Says His Lordship.
"No, Chairperson."
		"How can an unaware member firstly know where the offices are and what the emergency plan is?  Then he should be an aware member."
		"No, it could have been handed over somewhere in a chain, where I cannot tell you now who in that chain handled it.  It doesn't even have to be a member of the CCB."
		"Yes, Mr Verster!"
And the Court adjourned.
	Now in this passage His Lordship says that on your version, as you had told him at the time, that you were innocent of any attempted murder or conspiracy to murder Omar and Evans, the file would have been of absolute importance to you, do you agree?

MR VERSTER: That's correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you had been telling the Commission the truth you would produced the file and said "daar's hy", it didn't go beyond reconnoitring, but you knew that you were lying to the Commission and that if the file was brought, it would have made you guilty of conspiracy or attempted murder or Omar and Evans.  Do you agree?

MR VERSTER: No, I do not agree, because I have already explained what the circumstances were, the whole process, the whole attempt on which we sat in at that stage was in order to prevent that the police get particulars to focus more on us than on themselves.  And I've already put forward the reasons here this morning.  So everything was a struggle for survival because we were being blamed in place of the police.  And you are repeatedly saying that Chairperson, and I feel that I have already explained why we did everything that is now being read with regard to the Harms Commission.
	There was no certainty on our side that we would not be locked up again, that particulars would not be removed from files, that we would be held responsible for strange conduct which someone else is responsible for, but they are saying that this is us.  And did happen later that way.

GEORGE BIZOS: And opportunity was given to you by His Lordship Mr Justice Harms, to corroborate yourself, why aren't you anxious to get the Omar file and the Evans, so that you can prove your innocence the way you are telling me here?  And the reason for my question, Sir, is whether the Committee can believe in what you said to the Commission and what you are saying to the Committee, because the denial that you were guilty of attempted murder of these two, was a wilful untruth and this is why you took, amongst other reasons, extraordinary steps not to make the files available when you could have done so.  You want to say anything about that?

MR VERSTER: I've already told you what it is, but have you thought about it that there could have been guidelines that came from other structures that said "hide the files, you will get into problems"?  If you see it in the full context - the more you concentrate on my project, I understand why you do it, Mr Chairperson, but the fact of the matter is that I had to make a decision on my own concerning this matter and I decided in this way at that time, but I've explained to you that between then and now - otherwise I would not have been here today, an Act appeared, another approach was taken, there was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and I am now trying to on this basis obtain amnesty and this is why I did this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I think this will be a convenient time.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I just put one, because I want his reaction as to whether I'm going to read him any more passages.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to put to you that there are numerous occasions on which Mr McNally and His Lordship Mr Justice Harms implore you to cooperate and to help the Commission by assisting them to locate these files and produce them, and do you agree that you promise on a number of occasions to do all that but with always a bit of a tail that it may be beyond your knowledge or ability to do so?  Do you agree that I have correctly summarised your answers in order to spare time?  I have them marked if you want me to read them, but do you agree that that is the position?

MR VERSTER: I agree, for the reasons that I have given you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: This would be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment, tea for approximately 20 minutes.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: (s.u.o.)

GEORGE BIZOS: (Cont)
	Thank you ...(indistinct - no microphone)
	Now that you have admitted that you were untruthful to the Commission in the respects that you have mentioned, are you prepared to admit that the conclusion that the learned Judge came to in bundle D, page 39 - I will read it to you -
"The Commission has a serious problem about relying to any significant extent, on any of the witnesses that gave evidence on the various internal projects of the CCB.  On the one hand there are witnesses such as Verster, Christo Britz, Braam Cilliers and Shaun du Plooy, whose evidence is so vague or contradictory that at various points it is of no value."
Are you prepared to agree with that judgment in view of your admission that you were untruthful?

CHAIRPERSON: First of all, perhaps - insofar as it refers to yourself.

MR VERSTER: That was for a reason, so I do not agree with it.  I accept that that was the Judge's opinion, for the reasons that I have mentioned.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
ON RESUMPTION

GEORGE BIZOS: I would like you to please explain to the Commission what the reason was why you chose to claim privilege for the bomb blast and the Apie incident on the one hand, and you chose to be untruthful about the attempted murder of Omar and Evans.  Did you make a deliberate choice?

MR VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, it was a result of the unsolved dispute between myself and the General and because I signed it and the General totally distanced himself from it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now did you know or did you think that nobody had been injured at the bomb incident?

MR VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I might have forgotten it, but I was at some stage under the impression that no-one was injured.  Later on I heard that someone was injured.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  At the time that you made the decision to claim privilege in relation to that, you didn't know that anybody had been injured.

MR VERSTER: Yes, that might be the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: You also regarded the Bishop Tutu happening as a joke.

MR VERSTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: The punishment that you might have expected if convicted of taking part in a joke and in an explosion which no-one was injured on the one hand and two counts of attempted murder or the other, didn't have anything to do in your choice?

MR VERSTER: No, I've already given the reasons why I did that.