Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And presumably your Unit would have been interested 
in setting up and maintaining your own safe houses, unrelated to the 
other Security Branch safe houses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, they formed part of my Unit.  So I used 
their facilities.

ADV FORD: I am sorry, what formed part of your Unit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Captain Van Vuuren who already at that stage 
had a safe house, formed part of my Unit.

ADV FORD: But was there any reason why your Unit could not 
establish its own safe houses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, but there were cost 
implications and contracts to be drafted and there were many other 
factors to be taken into consideration, needed authorization from 
head office, and all those things had to be considered, it wasn't such 
a simple matter of just going out and finding a house.

ADV FORD: You are not suggesting that these four men were 
killed just because it was a matter of spending a bit more money and 
a bit more red tape?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: And the operating premises that you refer to later, 
what precisely did that entail?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Those were also premises where all the 
operatives and the handlers performed their administrative duties.

ADV FORD: Once again, a bit of money, a bit of arrangement, you 
could have organised a new operating premises without too much 
problem?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, but there was a lot more to it 
than that.  It wasn't such a simple matter and you had to motivate it 
properly and head office would have to consider the matter.

ADV FORD: We are talking about a calculated decision to kill four 
people Mr Nieuwoudt, as opposed to the proportionality, as opposed 
to a little bit of inconvenience and a little bit of cost of changing 
your houses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't make the decision to eliminate them.  
It was Brigadier Gilbert.  Whether he considered those factors, I 
don't know.

ADV FORD: But we know, because you have told us, what 
Brigadier Gilbert's immediate reaction was, transfer them.  He didn't 
want to kill them.  You pushed him into that, didn't you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not.

ADV FORD: By repeated returns to Brigadier Gilbert and which is 
apparent from your application, you pushed him into that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.  I couldn't give him orders.  It is 
unacceptable, I don't agree.

ADV FORD: Well ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it is not suggested that you gave him 
orders.  I think what is being put to you is that you impressed on 
him the fact that these people should be eliminated, in other words, 
you were not quite happy with the transfer?  You impressed on him 
that the best thing would be to eliminate them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I only made a suggestion to him.  I didn't place 
any pressure on him.

ADV FORD: So the suggestion that they should be killed, came 
from you Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.  No.

ADV FORD: Well, what suggestion did you make then Mr 
Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I said, I told him what the implications 
were as I saw it and it wouldn't help to transfer them.

ADV FORD: Well, Mr Nieuwoudt, I want to take you to page 327 
of your application, paragraph 21, where you say Brigadier Gilbert's 
spontaneous reaction was that these people should immediately be 
transferred from the Security Branch and that he was prepared to 
immediately make the necessary arrangements with head quarters.
	This was after listened to their talk in the tea room as you 
have alleged, this was after you had been monitoring them, this was 
after you had intercepted Mr Mgoduka's post.  Brigadier Gilbert still 
thinks that an appropriate procedure is to transfer them.  The idea 
was that these people would be transferred to a centre outside of the 
Eastern Cape to prevent any further damage being done to the 
information network.  And then you go on Mr Nieuwoudt, however, 
I focused Gilbert's attention on the fact that this matter was a lot 
more complicated and sensitive since these particular members had 
been attached to the Security Branch for quite some time.   What are 
you trying to tell us there, Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Gilbert didn't know the members, and he 
didn't know the circumstances.  And I simply explained the issues to 
him.  That is what I mean.  I drew his attention to that fact.

ADV FORD: Are you suggesting Brigadier Gilbert didn't know the 
persons under his command?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is not what I am saying here.

ADV FORD: Or how long they had been with the command?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I believed that he knew.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, was this anything other than an 
attempt to convince Brigadier Gilbert that the only way here was to 
kill these persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Maybe you didn't understand my question.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What did you have in mind?  What I brought to 
Gilbert's attention was that transferring would not be a solution, 
because they could escape and then all the information which they 
possessed, they would be free to convey it to the ANC.

ADV POTGIETER: You did not agree with them being transferred, 
so what did you have in mind?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At that stage I didn't have anything in mind.

ADV POTGIETER: Would you have been satisfied with a transfer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If that is what he decided, I would have, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And you would have accepted it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And you wouldn't have had further problems 
with that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The only problem which I would have foreseen 
would be that they could defect to the ANC and endanger our 
security network by exposing information and that they could 
identify informers and policemen, etc.
	That is what I had in mind.

ADV POTGIETER: So those are all the possibilities that existed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: But if the idea was that they should be 
transferred, you would accepted that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If that was his order, that is how I would have 
accepted it.

ADV POTGIETER: So one could have solved the problem by 
means of transfer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.  I couldn't make that decision.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nieuwoudt, if I am transferred and I have the 
names of four informers, and I go to the ANC and I give them those 
four names, what would happen them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In my view, they would have been eliminated 
and our intelligence network would be prejudiced.

ADV DE JAGER: So the only solution was you had to either put 
them in a prison where they weren't able to convey the information 
and weren't able to defect to the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, why was that not a solution?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because according to knowledge that I had, 
some people had already leaked information by means of visitors 
which they had received in prison, so there are many ways in which 
the information could be passed on.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, while we are on that, you referred in 
your evidence to Section 29 of the Internal Security Act, is that 
right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Your powers went a little bit further than that at that 
stage, didn't they?  There were certain Security Emergency 
Regulations in place, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And we all know about Section 3 of those Emergency 
Regulations, arrest and detention of persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: We all know of the prohibition on visits?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not under the Emergency Regulations.