Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: Mine is not putting it, it's a question.
	I'm asking you, as at the time that you decided to eliminate these two - that is the ones we are talking about Mthimkhulu and Madaka, were you personally unaware of what the attitude of the politicians would be?  Were you or were you not?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I had my perceptions of what I believed about this, that they would not - if I would apply or ask to do something like this, that they would not approve of it as long as these - these actions would be correct as long as they were just not involved and that's perhaps the way to refer to it.

MR PHOSA: Are you saying that you made your own deductions, or did you find anywhere an indication to that effect that you could go ahead but please don't involve us?  Did you - was it your own deductions or conclusions?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was my own deductions as a consequence of public statements by politicians.

MR PHOSA: The visit you are referring to by Mr le Grange the Minister - in relation to this incident, when was it - before or after?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I'm quite certain that it was after this incident.

MR PHOSA: Right.  Now you, I take it like Mr Erasmus, at no stage spoke to any politician whether at a meeting or outside, about the eliminations?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I hadn't.

MR PHOSA: Was your impression, your personal impression that if you - if the politicians get to know that you want to eliminate a politico, they would say: "No, don't do it"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I believed that if I had to approach them directly, that would probably have been the answer.  In my view no political person would directly give such an instruction.

MR PHOSA: And who was your - at head office, who was the Commissioner of Police at the time of the killing of these two?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know for certain whether it was General Coetzee at that stage or General Geldenhuys, I'm not certain.

MR PHOSA: Now, had you ever discussed with whoever the General was - who the Commissioner was then, had you ever discussed this concept of elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I hadn't.

MR PHOSA: Had you ever heard him make reference to elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Now he of course is not a politician - he wouldn't be referred to as a politician, he would be a policeman?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: So you did not know the attitude of senior policemen in this regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I did not know what their attitude was but the pressure that was consistently exerted from above left certain perceptions with me.

MR PHOSA: I have this difficulty and it may be mine alone, if at meetings the word: "elimination" - sorry, not at meetings, if generally the word: "elimination" was used as one of the methods of solving the political situation - it was used publicly and as far as you knew everyone understood it meant killing, why couldn't you get someone if you could do it yourself to say: "That stage for elimination has arrived in the Eastern Cape".   Why would it be difficult to do that?  Do you understand my question?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I don't see a problem with that but it was not said, it just wasn't said.

MR PHOSA: You mean it just wasn't said by you people?  I don't understand you too, I'll just repeat my question.  Seeing that - according to you, it was generally accepted that people like these must be eliminated, what difficulty would you and your colleagues have had in saying: "We have reached a stage where it seems to us - say: "It seems to us", that that elimination solution is the only one?  Why couldn't you have done that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, but that is exactly what we had said to each other before this incident.

MR PHOSA: No, you're missing my portion - my question still and I want you to understand it very clearly because it is significant the way I think.  You see, it would appear that people like the Commissioner of Police according to your understanding, would have been aware of the - of elimination as one of the solutions, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I would assume so.

MR PHOSA: You understood so then?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: And this was being mentioned quite openly by them to you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Okay, it was being mentioned publicly and you picked it up - just mentioned publicly that elimination is one of the solutions?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not by senior police officers no, not that I'm aware of.

MR PHOSA: Any knowledge to whether senior police officers were against elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I'm not aware of whether senior police officers - whether all of them were in favour thereof, I'm not sure.

MR PHOSA: Well that is just one of them, when I say officers I don't mean all of them.  Were you aware of the general attitude of senior police officers to the concept of eliminating politicos?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I'm not aware what their general attitude regarding this matter was.  I only made deductions as a consequence of the pressure that was exerted on us from the senior officers.  My impression was: "You have to make plans now, other plans than the normal plans, you must act in a drastic manner, you must stop this violence now at all cost".  And in terms of that I made certain deductions.

MR PHOSA: It's not clear to me now, are you saying it was said in so many words or you understood that that's what they meant, that you must take drastic steps?  Did they say so at any stage in so many words?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that we had to take drastic steps, actions.

MR PHOSA: Now who said that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well, I can't remember exactly who said it, it was sometimes feedback given by the chief who had been at meetings in Pretoria, it was sometimes passed on by a senior officer at a desk who would phone and say: "What are you doing about those people and their activities"?

MR PHOSA: This was before the death of these two gentlemen?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: Therefore from what you have just said, you understood that they were suggesting that you should eliminate them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: ...[inaudible] my question then.  Since you understood that they were - the police now, were suggesting that you should eliminate these people, what was the difficulty in saying to them: "Look, we also have come to the conclusion and it appears to us that the only answer is to eliminate", would that have been a problem to say that to them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I wouldn't have said so to them.

MR PHOSA: I don't necessarily say it should have been said by you but if the message was passed to them, would that have been inappropriate to say that to them - to say: "Look, listen I think you are right, we must now take drastic steps and it seems to us that that means what you say, the elimination of problematic people".  Now couldn't you have said that, couldn't that message have been passed to them - the message passed to them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't believe it would have been the right thing to do because we were dealing here with a secret method, clandestine methods which were dealt with on a must know basis and  I didn't want one of those people later to turn around and say I had said things like these, it had to be on a must know basis.  This is the way in which you deal with this kind of matter.