Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

ERIC WILLIAMS: I never understood any part of that statement, this policeman had a paper and handed the paper over to me, they were speaking in a foreign language, they asked me whether I knew some guys, I denied it and I said I knew the other one with whom I was working but at a later stage they wrote the statements themselves and made me sign it.  I did not understand a word of it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I don't think I'll have further questions though I would pursue this regarding the questions which the witness was asked before he made the statement, but I won't take it any further, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Mpshe do you have any re-examination?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, with your permission, just one point that I forgot to take up with him?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly then I'll give Mr Mbandazayo another opportunity to ask questions if he requires it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Williams, do you remember when I spoke to you and I consulted with you this morning when we were standing behind the interpretation boxes?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  You remember I asked you what was to be done with the money had the operation succeeded, do you remember the question?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you remember you said to me the money was going to be given to the organisation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes that is what I was told by Sipiwe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember I suggested to you in the presence of David Nene that if you operate as a group, if you carry out an operation and you get money, normally you share the money, remember me saying that?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I do remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you disputed it, you said it was not to be shared but to be used for the organisation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I said to you I was told that the money was to be used by the organisation not that was my own personal knowledge, that was what was passed on to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.  You remember in the presence of David Nene again when I asked the same question, David Nene said to me in answer that the money was to be given to a particular person?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I do remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions of this witness?
ADV. BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
   Mr Williams, for what purpose did you obtain these guns, was it simply to sell so that you could make money out of it or was it for a particular organisation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Sipiwe was involved with politics, he approached me because he knew that I was from Mozambique and he requested me specifically as to whether I knew anyone who was dealing in guns, that's when I went to Mjaban and I told Mjaban that there were people who were in need of guns and Mjaban brought them and they were sold.
ADV. BOSMAN: Did you know for which organisation Sipiwe was working?

ERIC WILLIAMS: He was in the PAC.
ADV. BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Motata?
ADV. MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, just probably two.
	Was Sipiwe, Mr Williams, was Sipiwe involved in that Stilfontein operation, do you know, do you possess special knowledge of that?

ERIC WILLIAMS: No, he came to me to talk about guns as to whether he participated or not I have no idea.
ADV. MOTATA: But I think when you were asked you said Sipiwe told you again that these guns were used in that operation at Stilfontein.  I think that was your testimony, would I be correct?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes that is what he told me, I did not ask him as to whether he went there or he did not.  He could have said it that the other people went so he came and told me that but as to whether he went or not I'm not sure.
ADV. MOTATA: Did he tell you that to whom he gave these guns after getting them from you, after being handed over to you by Mjaban?

ERIC WILLIAMS: No he never told me but I knew these guns were designated to the PAC or for the PAC.
ADV. MOTATA: Would I be correct Mr Williams that other than Portuguese, you speak Shangaan as well, would I be correct?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I am able to speak Shangaan but the Mozambique Shangaan is not the same as the local Shangaan.  I'm not a Shangaan speaking person I'm a Tjope, I speak a little bit of Shangaan but it's not the same as the local Shangaan that's spoken here in Soweto.
ADV. MOTATA: You would find that Tjope is a mixture of Shangaan and Sepedi, am I correct and a little bit of Siswati, would I be correct in saying so?

ERIC WILLIAMS: That is not correct.
ADV. MOTATA: When you say Tjope, what is the mixture there when you say Shangaan with Tjope there what are you actually referring to?

ERIC WILLIAMS: These are totally different languages when you're saying ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: Unfortunately we do not understand whatever the witness is saying because he is making reference to the Tjope language of which we cannot interpret.
ADV. MOTATA: Let's make it short, do you understand Shangaan?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I do.
 ADV. MOTATA:   If you turn to page 34 of the papers there.

ERIC WILLIAMS: 34?
ADV. MOTATA: Yes.  We would require our Afrikaans interpreter in the box.  Just further down it says
"The statement was taken by Sergeant Ramabula of the South African Police at my private office and in this office it was myself, the person making the statement, Makumu the interpreter and nobody else."
And if you go further up the question is:
	"To which ethnic group do you belong"
and you answered and said:
	"I am Shangaan"
Do you see that?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I do.
ADV. MOTATA: And you turn to page 37 now.  You'll see that you signed because this was now typed and Makumu also typed, that is the interpreter, do you see that?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I do.
ADV. MOTATA: Did you tell them that you were Shangaan?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes I did.
ADV. MOTATA: And why you come here and say they didn't want to give you a Portuguese interpreter, why didn't you say no, I did say I can speak Shangaan?

ERIC WILLIAMS: It's because all the people from Mozambique are being referred to as Shangaans that is why they said I must speak Shangaan and I forced issues to speak Shangaan and we did not understand it each other.  That's when I realised that Shangaan that is used here and from Mozambique is not the same.
ADV. MOTATA: Was it the first time that you realised when you were making the statement that the Shangaans are different?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I do not know Shangaan, that's not my mother tongue, I do hear people when they speak Shangaan, it's just like Zulu.  I try my level best to communicate or speak in Zulu but I'm not perfect and I cannot express myself perfectly in those languages.
ADV. MOTATA: But the person who signed Makumu, says he translated from Afrikaans to Shangaan?  That's what the papers say, it's not me.  I just want clarification from you?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Makamu is the person who arrested me, he can sugar coat all this because it should sound to you because he is the one who arrested me.
ADV. MOTATA: Was he present when you were interviewed?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes he was.
ADV. MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just very briefly, Mr Williams, you heard - you were sitting in the hall today when the applicant testified and the applicant in his testimony clearly said that you were involved in the operation at Stilfontein and also prior to Stilfontein in the planning.  Do you dispute all the evidence of the applicant insofar as it relates to yourself?

ERIC WILLIAMS: He's telling a blue lie, I was never involved because I only met him on the day that we were arrested or when we were in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Mpshe do you have any questions arising?