Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-03

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, the legal representatives amongst themselves have agreed, subject to your approval, that the following witness should be Mr W A L du Toit.  Subsequently Mr De Kock, the technical people involved.  If that should meet with your approval, I will ask that we just adjourn for about five minutes, because the witnesses have to reassemble on that side for the ease of the interpreters.  So we will have to move to that side.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, Kemp on behalf of the sixth applicant, Wybrandt du Toit.  We thank for the Committee for the indulgence. We will be initially referring the witness to volume 1 of the documents before the Committee.  Before I lead the evidence, Mr Chairman, you will note that during the adjournment, we have placed documents before you. It is simply a document in which we apply for a slight amendment to paragraph 9(a)(i) of the application for amendment, merely to extend the request for amnesty also to those crimes as set out in paragraph two of this notice.  It follows from the same incident and it is done for the sake of completeness, in line with that done by previous applicants in this hearing.
	The witness is ready to take the oath.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: (Duly sworn, states).

MR KEMP: Mr Du Toit, you are the sixth applicant applying for amnesty in this incident.  I want to refer you to page 145 of Volume 1 of the documents before this Committee.  This is the amnesty application in terms of Section 80 of the Act, completed by you and handed in last year. Is that correct?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes.

MR KEMP: Will you look at this document, it ranges from page 145 to page 164. Is this your application as prepared by you and handed in?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: The first page is just to give your names, date of birth, address, your career history and other background information.  Do you confirm the correctness of this information, as put in this document?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I confirm this.

MR KEMP: From page 151 in this document you refer specifically to the Motherwell incident. Is that correct?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes.

MR KEMP: You will also find that in this document or in this volume, as from page 115, there appears the document titled Framework.  Is that correct?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Correct.

MR KEMP: Is that a document prepared by you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes, I prepared that.

MR KEMP: This document gives an explanation of your personal history, your career history, the background to the technical division of the security branch, involvement of the technical division and broadly, also the background for your amnesty application. Is that correct?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes.

MR KEMP: Do you confirm the correctness of the information in this as far as it concerns you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I confirm that.

MR KEMP: I specifically want to draw your attention to what we are here for, that is the Motherwell incident.  It is common knowledge that during the day of the 13th of December 1989, De Kock and Nieuwoudt visited you.  Where did that take place and can you remember at what time more or less on that specific day?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I can remember that it took place in my office in the official offices in Rebecca Street.  The time I am not sure of, it could have between eight and eleven. I think during the consultation I told you that it could have been between ten or 10,30.

MR KEMP: You have no independent recollection of the time?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No.

MR KEMP: Can you remember how it happened that these people met you?  Did they make arrangements, did they arrange for a meeting?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I can't remember such arrangements. I can just remember that they came to my office together.

MR KEMP: You knew De Kock at that stage?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes, I knew him.

MR KEMP: How long have you known him at that stage?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I knew him for about six years, I think.

MR KEMP: Was there a relationship of trust between you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I think there was a particular relationship of trust.

MR KEMP: Did you know Nieuwoudt?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, I did not know Nieuwoudt.

MR KEMP: Can you remember whether he came to your office together with De Kock or did they come separately?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That detail I can't remember, but as I recall it, they came more or less at the same time. If they made an arrangement to come there, I can't say specifically.

MR KEMP: After they arrived there, what did they tell you, what was the purpose of this visit?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Mr De Kock told me, he started the discussion and said there were certain problems in the Eastern Cape.  This resulted from offences committed by members of the security branch and they were a security risk, and on a higher level a decision was made to eliminate these people.

MR KEMP: Can you remember whether at that stage it was told to you who at the higher level gave the instruction?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Possibly it could have been told to me, but I can't remember pertinently. In my statement I have said that it was Genl Van Rensburg.  It was conveyed to me that this decision was taken at head office, and the authorisation was given at head office.

MR KEMP: Was there any reason to doubt this what they told you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Not at all.

MR KEMP: What was the request to you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Shortly, they requested me that I should develop a mechanism to eliminate these people by means of a bomb. This should happen in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth.

MR KEMP: Did they explain to you why it should be a bomb?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: The reason for that was that the responsibility should be put before the door of the ANC.

MR KEMP: How would they achieve that?  How would they achieve that, to blame the ANC for that?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: At that stage we did not discuss those details.

MR KEMP: At that meeting was it discussed which members of your division would participate?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: After De Kock had left, I had not taken this decision. I first had to survey the various circumstances, which staff were available. I gave him the undertaking that it would be done, that we would be involved, and that we would be ready by the next day.

MR KEMP: Would you receive any support or assistance from De Kock?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes, to the effect, because he made a vehicle and funds available, and also members of his staff, to support us.

MR KEMP: And was a vehicle and cash provided to you later on, as promised?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: The money which was given to you, was it a kind of remuneration for your services or what was that for?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, the money was put in an envelope and it had to be used for the cost incurred during our journey.

MR KEMP: And this was just then to be used for expenses?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes.

MR KEMP: When did you have to do this?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: It was explained to me that this was an urgent matter and it had to be done the next night.

MR KEMP: How would you get to Port Elizabeth?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Mr De Kock would provide transport and we had to travel by car.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: After De Kock and Nieuwoudt left your office, what happened?