Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman and the evidence is that they wanted him in the meeting to explain their pensions and their future.  There is no evidence that they wanted him to come and resign in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't that what Mr Mfene was saying?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He was saying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If he's - once he is there he is there and he's in their power.  They wouldn't release him, they wouldn't allow him to go until they had reached what they intended to reach?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman but Mr Chairman with respect, Mr Mfene goes to Brigadier Gqozo, Brigadier Gqozo says "I've resigned".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: He does not take him to the meeting to convince the meeting that here he is, he is sent to fetch Brigadier Gqozo, he was not sent to say anything to Brigadier Gqozo other than fetching him.  He does not do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but Gqozo then promises, he says "look, I'll be addressing the nation tomorrow at the stadium, I'll be confirming this" and then Nkwenkwe goes back and he says to the meeting, "look, that man has resigned."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: "He'll be having a meeting tomorrow in the stadium".

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman, but now the issue is that despite what Nkwenkwe said, they still continue to violate other people's rights.  Instead of going to the street joyous and all that and taking key positions to make it upon that what they have achieved they're protected, they don't do that, they stay in the hall.  Instead all they do they send people to fetch some other people and they don't say to those people "people, we want you to be with us now because we have achieved this."  They say "look tell us about the money, tell us about your girlfriend, tell us about this."  Now, that is no political objective at all.
	Lastly, Mr Chairman, I ask the Committee to recommend, the Commission to recommend to the TRC, Mr Chairman, that the victims I'm representing were victims of gross human violations.  Therefore I ask, Mr Chairman, that the applicants have failed the test and as such their applications should be turned down.
NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett have you got any submissions?

MS COLLETT: Just a few Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, the Act is quite clear, the Truth and Reconciliation Act, it's quite clear that acts must be committed in pursuance of a political objective and that political objective must be disclosed and must be viable and must be made known to the Committee.  Now the applicants would have this Committee believe that what they did on that evening was political.  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that what they were doing was initially supposed to be political.  Let's assume that they were asking, wanting Brigadier Gqozo to stand down.  Let's assume that they caused Brigadier Gqozo to step down.  The fact of the matter is that as early as 6 o'clock that evening it was communicated with them by one of their own that Brigadier Gqozo had told him that he had stepped down.  In addition to that the interim administration in the form of Jurgens, Goosen and Vienke visited them and told them to disperse.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that appointed, when was the interim administration appointed?

MS COLLETT: It hasn't come up from the evidence but that very evening the arrangement between Pik Botha as I understand it was that the interim administration was in the wings ready to take over the minute Brigadier Gqozo stepped down, that interim administration was already in being.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the night of the 22nd and the morning of the 23rd?  What was their statement?

MS COLLETT: Sorry, I never heard?

CHAIRPERSON: The night of the 22nd and the morning of the 23rd March 1994, what was the status of these individuals, Goosen, Jurgens and Vienke?

MS COLLETT: They were already the interim administration, as a matter of fact it was announced on the 8 o'clock news that evening with Brigadier Gqozo's stepping down that the interim administration had taken control and if Mr Chairman, if you can pick up from the evidence of the applicants they were told they're in charge now, in other words the interim administration, Gqozo had stepped down, please they must now disperse for that reason.  That was after Nkwenkwe had gone back and told them that Brigadier Gqozo had said he'd stepped down.  But it went further than that because one of the people from amongst those police was actually interviewed on the television that evening and by implication and by logical deduction, they must have known that Gqozo had stood down and they must have had a belief in that because it was confirmed on the TV that they were happy, they were happy with the fact that they had stood down.
	Here's the question that needs to be answered.  Let's assume that they did have all the political motives in the world that they wanted Gqozo to stand down and it was a show of force that they were displaying at the college.  The question is and let's assume that they wanted to go to the meeting the next morning to hear what Gqozo had to say, the question is why did they then do what they did.  Why did they kidnap people, violate the liberty of people, violate the dignity of people, hold them against their will at the police college until the early hours of the morning.  There cannot be any political motivation for that at all.  
	Even if this Committee should find and I submit that there is very little evidence to support it, but even if this Committee should find that they had a political objective, that political objective must have ended when they had received confirmation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but that is the rub, what was that, what was the confirmation.  You're gathered in a hall, you are surrounding yourself with armed guards, you're keeping the rest of the world out, particularly the stability unit from South Africa, you're sitting there, you have been struggling to get hold of the Commissioner, you eventually get hold of him, you sent people to Gqozo, Gqozo says "yes, I'm going but I'll speak to tomorrow, I'll address you at the meeting, so when was the confirmation that he had finally resigned?

MS COLLETT: If that was the only thing that was present, if that was the only piece of evidence that was here that Gqozo had told them he had stood down ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: That would have been one thing, but it wasn't.  It wasn't for sure.

CHAIRPERSON: What else was it?

MS COLLETT: There was Jurgens, there was Vienke, there was Goosen who went to them on two occasions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: On two occasions to say to them please disburse, there was the T.V. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now was it unreasonable to consolidate and keep their position until the next day, until the meeting at the stadium?

MS COLLETT: Let's assume that it wasn't unreasonable, let's assume it was quite reasonable for them to keep their position.  Was it reasonable for them to deprive the persons of their freedom, was it reasonable of them to humiliate them, was it reasonable of them to kidnap innocent civilians and put them in the hall?   Let's assume that they wanted the confirmation the next morning.  All they had to do was stage a sitting in the hall or have a party or sing freedom songs all night.  Was it reasonable for them to commit the crimes which they did and I submit not.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying that they should have frozen the entire operation?

MS COLLETT: What operation, Mr Chairman, with respect, what operation was it that they were freezing?

CHAIRPERSON: Collecting these officers, bringing them in, consolidating their own position?