Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  I am not a lawyer, I use the tools of (indistinct) and I have looked at your statement on page 7, I want to understand it.  In your statement you do say that after your brother was gunned down, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was informed about the death resulting to her taking some steps of telephoning the family, the Asvats and going further to do the visit, is that true?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And later, I am confused about the last sentence which says that the family found her behaviour strange.  What does that mean?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, we found it strange in the sense that there wasn't any real grief shown by Mrs Mandela, she knelt next to my sister-in-law in the room and she sat there kneeling for quite some time, for about half an hour.
 This occurred at about mid-night.  And it was just a behaviour which everybody felt was not the normal type of behaviour.

UNKNOWN: What would you have expected generally in the normal way of life?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, basically I would have expected her to be more sympathetic, more supportive with regard to my sister-in-law.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MKOJO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kades?

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Commissioner.  Dr Asvat, you will know as a result of your late brother's relationship with Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, was he accustomed to charge in respect of patients referred by her to his consulting room?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I would expect him not to charge if they were referred by Mrs Mandela.

MR KADES: And in fact in the case of Cebekhulu, Katiza Cebekhulu, we find the mark, the word, the mark n/c, no charge?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No charge, yes.

MR KADES: Would that also have been relevant to Richardson's treatment?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I presume it would be done, yes.  In big writing sent by Winnie, I would presume.

MR KADES: Would you also with regard to the, if your brother had indeed made a home visit to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela concerning the injuries to Stompie or to examine Stompie or to see the other boys who had been abducted, and were being held at the house, you say that you would have expected your brother to have made a note of this?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, I would have expected him to.

MR KADES: Well, he didn't ordinarily carry these cards, patient cards with him, did he?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR KADES: Well, when would he have made that?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Possibly when he returned to his consulting rooms.

MR KADES: I see.  Did you find, do you know whether your brother did in fact make home visits to the home of Madikizela-Mandela?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, he did make visits there when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had called him for illnesses or whatever, he would go down there.

MR KADES: And did you find records of such home visits amongst the documentation that you inspected?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, I didn't find any documentation.

MR KADES: Can I just then, because the matter has been alluded to, can I refer you to the entry of the 27th of January of 1989, on page 6 and that is with regard to the Attorney Eunice Mayet.  I think you have told us that he denied that he had spoken to your brother on the day of his murder, is that correct?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR KADES: But the information that you had from Sandra Naiker, who was his receptionist, was that your brother had spent approximately 45 minutes with him?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR KADES: Prior to the murder?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes.

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Commissioner, I have no further questions.

MR KADES: .

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson, I just want to clarify one thing Dr Asvat.  When you had that conversation with the State Prosecutor about a statement which he said might be useful to you, did he just show you the statement which had been made by this person or did he give it to you into your hand?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: He gave me a copy of the statement.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you still have a copy of that statement?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: It was in our lawyer's file, I went to look for it some time before appearing at the Commission, I didn't find it, but I see there is a copy which has been attached to one of the reports.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

MR KADES: May I just clarity that the lawyer that he talks of Mr Commissioner, the lawyer that you talk of is a lawyer who previously acted for you, an Attorney and who has now left the country, is that correct?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is right.

MR KADES: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It is important to make that clarification.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Just one question Archbishop.  If you look at page 2, paragraph 6 of your submission to us, the way it is phrased, I just want to get clarity on this.
 You talk about Stompie Moketsi being seen by Dr Asvat and that you saw this in Katiza's journey, you then go on about Katiza Cebekhulu as being examined by Dr Asvat on the 30th of December as recorded on his medical record card and double entry patient registration log book, now in police possession?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, this is the system they ran that whenever a patient arrived at the consulting room, they would be entered into this log book, the name would be taken down, the address, the date and a particular number was allocated to their record card.  And that was, that log book stated also that it was the 30th of December 1988.

MR VALLY: That Katiza Cebekhulu was at ... (intervention)

EBRAHIM ASVAT: The consulting rooms.

MR VALLY: Right, any reference to Stompie Seipei in that record book?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No.

MR VALLY: Thank you Dr Asvat.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much, you may stand down.

<UNKNOWN>: .

MR KADES: Mr Chairman, may I ask an indication from Mr Vally whether the police docket relating to the trial of the murderers of Dr Asvat, has been found?

MR VALLY: We are still, as far as I know, tracking it down, but I believe when Superintendent Moodley will be called today, that is an issue that will be taken up with him.
 I will, there are people monitoring us right now and if any one has an answer, they will send it up to me and I will let you know.

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I call Mrs Albertina Sisulu.  Good morning, Mama.  It is lovely to have you.  I am sorry that we have made you and your youngish escort come here so frequently, we are deeply grateful that both of you had been able to come and may I just take the opportunity of expressing our deep appreciation to you and to him for what you have meant to our nation, what you have meant to our struggle.
 Both of you have been quite outstanding and I think one should say it goes also for your family.  And we are just proud to have had you as one of the leaders of the struggle.  I might point out to you that you had a great deal to do with making the United States Congress pass the sanctions legislation, because two congress men who had come, who had not been supportive of sanctions when they came to see me in Cape Town, they said there were two people who made them change, you and the then State President.

ALBERTINA SISULU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please identify yourself.

MR GOBEDI: Good morning, my name is Brian Gobedi, I am appearing on behalf of Mrs Sisulu.  I will be leading her evidence.  I note honourable Commissioners, that Mr Vally had just gone away to get a copy of an affidavit.  Can I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR GOBEDI: As the Commission pleases.  Mrs Sisulu, you have been invited to come and testify in this Commission and you were given a letter which is annexed to the submission you have given to this Commission,is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR GOBEDI: On the items that have been listed on your invitation, you have elected to specifically give evidence about the events surrounding the death Dr Asvat, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: That is correct.