Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So you were aware of the pipe bombs which would have been built or which would have been thrown or which would have been used?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you reconciled yourself with that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I also note that these groups that were put together there was a Gert Fourie.  Is that family of yours?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's my brother Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you also discuss this with him?  The pipe bombs that is.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He told me that he was going to Pretoria.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did he tell you that he was going to take pipe bombs to Pretoria?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He said he was going with the men.  He was appointed to go with them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did he tell you what they were going to do with the pipe bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He did tell me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What would they have done with them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They must go and detonate those pipe bombs in Pretoria.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did he say where and what the target was?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Were you not interested in the target?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.  I assumed that they knew what they were supposed to do.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Just a few more questions.  After Rustenberg you returned to the head office of the AWB and you spoke to the leader there, is that correct?  And he made rude remarks with regards to the colleagues or with regards to his staff?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: How did you feel with regard to your leaders at that stage?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was as surprised as he was that the men who were supposed to arrange things and if the leaders were so shocked and the expressions he used and I thought what would happen to our men.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And then you went on the run?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.  When we left there we went around another farm where we were told the people were arrested on the shooting range and from there we went on the run.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yesterday you indicated that you are no longer a member of the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And no longer of the Ysterbrigarde either?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was never again involved with any of that Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why is it then that you still have this identity document and you carry it around with you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson I consulted with my advocate and said, we talked about the identity document and it was necessary for me to submit it Committee and I brought it from my house.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So you do not carry it around with you, you only brought it as an exhibit?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.  My real documents, the proper ID documents I have in my pocket every day.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The leader, Eugene Terreblanche, is not willing to assist you with your application, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know what his idea is Chairperson.  I must fight for myself and my family now.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What is your current thoughts of the then leader?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson I had much greater respect for him then.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And now?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know what to think.  It's difficult when you believed in people and they let you down, then it's difficult.  I do not know what to say.  I feel really bad about it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If you do not know what to say, why do you feel bad?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know what expression to use Chairperson.  I don't want to be insulting towards others.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Do you still respect him?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I just hope that one day he'll come to the front and he will accept responsibility in front of this Committee.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The question is really how do you feel about him now?  That's why I'm asking.  Do you still respect him?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not feel towards him the way I felt towards him in the past.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But how do you feel about him?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: How can I say.  Between a parent and a child, I feel like an orphan, if I can use that expression, if that would satisfy you.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: He sold you out?  He gave you away?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's how I feel Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I want you to use stronger words, he's a coward?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I place on record, and I didn't know when the opportune time was to hand up the statement but I circulated copies of a statement provided by Attorneys Van Niekerk who are the attorneys for Mr Eugene Terreblanche.  The indication from that attorney, Mr Van Niekerk was that Mr Terreblanche will not be attending in person hence the provision of his, I think two or three paragraph statement, five paragraph statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you read on that, what is the status of that document?

MR PRIOR: Yes.  It certainly, well it can't be cross-examined but I place on record that was the indication to me as Evidence Leader that Mr Terreblanche will not be coming and he sent through an affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: So be it.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Fourie, I just want to understand your evidence well. When you responded to the call up apparently to move to the Western Transvaal it seems to me the main aim was to go and establish the Volkstaat, is that impression correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I did not go there to found the Volkstaat, that was the responsibility of the leaders but the Volkstaat would have been established there, then it was my purpose to protect it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you would have lived there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the political objective was to obtain this Volkstaat, to live there and to protect it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you.  And to the extent that you then mention that you regarded yourself being in a war situation?  Would it then be within the same context, that you wanted, you were at war with those who were at war with your idea of establishing a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And maybe leaving that point for a moment.  As a member of the Ystergarde, would it be fair to say to you that seeing that this was the elite unit within the AWB you would be expected to be in touch with what were the policies, the principles of the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: [no English translation]

MR MOTLAUNG: [no English translation].  What they stood for.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: What was the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie in that book you submitted yesterday, the first two pages I think, there you will find the policy of the AWB.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the question is, did you know that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I read it many years ago, so I read it a long time ago.  I read it when I joined the AWB and I signed a form for my identity document.

INTERPRETER: Speaker's microphone is not on.