Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-10

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, I don't whether you understand the input of my question.  You've already testified that the community got sick and tired of the problems that were presented to them by the Toaster Gang and then they decided to do something.  What year was that, it can't be between 1992 and 1993?  It was as a result of that that you had to go to the ANC to seek direction and that's when you were given permission to establish and become a member of the self defence unit and your evidence in that regard is that you were given such permission and directive in 1992 so your permission must have preceded the meeting of the community?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you, now I understand the question.  Before joining the SDU I went to the ANC office as well as the MK office at Shell House and informed them about the situation in the township and they granted me permission to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my question is you have already given evidence that there was a time when your community came together to consider the problems that were being presented to them by members of the Toaster Gang in robbing, in raping, in maiming the members of the community.  When was that, you didn't give us an indication of the period in which that meeting took place by the community?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: We held the meeting in 1992 around May, I'm not quite sure of the date.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Shakoane, I'm sorry.  I just wanted to make sure that I rounded up the time period in respect of the evidence with regard to that meeting.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you Madame.
	You were just saying that you went to the ANC and the branch at Tembisa and also in Johannesburg.  Did you get that approval that you wanted?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I did because they also wrote me letters.  I'm talking here about the Tembisa Branch as well as the headquarters.  I also had the letters with me.

MR SHAKOANE: The letters that you refer to, are those the letters that are in the record?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: That is correct.

MR LAX: That's at page 93 and 94 Mr Shakoane.

MR SHAKOANE: ...[inaudible]
	Now once the approval was given what happened?  What did you do after the MK headquarters and the branch in Tembisa authorised the request that you took to them?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I joined the SDU's and there were other SDU members with whom I worked and trained in the township.

MR SHAKOANE: What was the aim and the objective of the SDUs in the township as such?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: The objectives of the SDUs in the township was to defend the people, control the township to make sure that people are not robbed of their things and things such as rape etcetera are stopped.

MR SHAKOANE: Were the SDUs also involved in the fighting between the organisations themselves that for example between the ANC and the IFP?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: Now were there any weapons used to achieve the purpose?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it what purpose, of defending the community?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: By the SDU members?

MR SHAKOANE: Yes Madame.

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes we did use weapons.

MR SHAKOANE: What type of weapons were those?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: We used AK's as well Stechems.

MR SHAKOANE: Now on the 25th October 1993 there was an incident that occurred in respect of which you are before the Commission today.  Would you explain to the Commission what happened?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: On the 25th October I was at home and I heard a gunshot and on going out to investigate I saw nothing and when I went towards the shops, the shops are not far away from home I think it's about 60 metres from home ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshaba, we are again going to request you to give your evidence in such a way that we are able to take it down as we have to write it and the interpreter is able to interpret each and every word that you say.  So we'll request you again to give it in a much slower pace than you've been doing.

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you.  Can I start all over again?

CHAIRPERSON: You may start again, on the 25th October 1993 you were at your home when you heard a gunshot, you went out and then what happened?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I went outside to investigate and outside I came across Ndlandla Ngala who came to me and he said that the Toaster Gang had fired shots at the shops and they robbed him of his money and a watch.  They went into the shop and robbed them of money as well and as he was showing me these gang members they walked past the street and I walked behind them, following them from a distance, so that they could not identify me.  I followed them until they came to a house at number 25 wherein they stood.  As I was following them I stood somewhere and watched them at a place that's almost like a bush and I went down that bushy path and got into the second house from where they were standing and I approached them from the corner from a different direction.  I spoke to them and I said to them please take back the money to the shop.  They had their guns lying down next to a wall and they were drinking liquor.  One of them went for his firearm and I realised that I had no chance here, I fired a shot during which time he fell and I went back home.

MR SHAKOANE: You said one of them, who is this person you're talking about as one of them?  Do you know him?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes, Boy Buthelezi is his name and there were three of them actually and after falling, these other two fled to the other side of the tar road and I did not get a chance to shoot them fearing that I might shoot innocent people.  This thing happened at roundabout 5 and everybody was back from work.

MR SHAKOANE: Were there any other persons you know who saw the incident?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes.

MR SHAKOANE: Do you know who they are?

CHAIRPERSON: How would he know that, isn't that a leading question?  Was he with any - there is no evidence to suggest that he was with anyone when this incident occurred?

MR SHAKOANE: Pardon Madame Chair, what I was - the import of the question was actually whether or not he would have somebody as a witness who might have seen the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: But when this incident occurred he wasn't aware whether anyone had seen anything, is it no so?

MR SHAKOANE: It's so Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: And he became aware after?

MR SHAKOANE: After.

CHAIRPERSON: I think put it to him in that regard that subsequent to the occurrence of this incident he became aware that other people had witnessed this incident.

MR SHAKOANE: Are you aware of any person of whom you subsequently knew that he saw the incident?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes.

MR SHAKOANE: Who could that be?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I do not quite understand, would you please repeat the question?  I don't know which people you are talking about here.

MR SHAKOANE: Do you know the name of the person whom you subsequently came to know has witnessed the incident?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR SHAKOANE: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shakoane, may I just come in?  I don't understand the relevance of you eliciting that information now whilst he is still giving us details of how the incident occurred.  Shouldn't you exhaust your questions in leading him to the particulars relating to how this incident happened and thereafter proceed to deal with his political motivation or justification for having committed this offence then you can introduce those questions by way of enabling yourselves to bring in further witnesses which will support his version?

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you Madame.  Mr Seshaba, what was the reason for following these people and ultimately shooting the deceased?