Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that in Tereblanche's office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said Motsamai and Ngo participated.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, I am saying they took part - Motsamai and Ngo, in assaulting me.

CHAIRPERSON: In Tereblanche's office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you have just told Mr Memani you agreed it was correct that they didn't take part in the assault in the Investigative Unit's offices?  That is what he told you, isn't it Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: I think he was agreeing to having heard the evidence, My Lord.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, if I understand correctly,  I don't really know the offices because I didn't work there.  I was in an office and he was assaulted there.  That is the impression I gained.  He did not say specifically it was in the office of any particular person or Tereblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: He did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What he may not know is whether those offices were the offices of the Special Task or whatever.  He may not know those sort of classifications, but I think he mentioned that ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said clearly after being suffocated, they took me Tereblanche's office.  I was put on a chair and paper was put on the table.

MR STANDER: I am sorry, that is indeed correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he also agreed that it was not on the same floor as Mamome's.

MR STANDER: It is indeed correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And you heard Ngo and Motsamai say that they only participated in the assault on the fifth floor, and they were not present when you were assaulted on the fourth floor.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: They later saw you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I think that could lead to confusion.  You are now asking him whether he heard that Ngo and Motsamai said they were not present and he said it is correct.
	But I don't know whether he is agreeing that they in fact were not present, he agrees with that they gave that evidence, but was it in fact - does he agree that they were present?

ADV MEMANI: I am getting to the point.  Mr Makhubalo, it was not put to these people when they testified, that you are going to say that they participated in your assault on the fourth floor.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I must also mention that in fairness the witness said he did not know which floor it was.  That is true that the Special Investigative Unit was on the fourth floor, but the field workers were on the fifth floor, but I understood that the witness said he didn't know exactly which floor it was, he had been taken to various offices.

ADV MEMANI: It was not put to these applicants when they testified that you would say that they were present in the office where you were beaten up with a bat.

MR STANDER: No, Mr Chairman, this is not this at all.  I asked Mr Ngo during his interrogation, I asked him specifically had he been hit with any objects including a cricket bat.  I specifically asked him that.

ADV MEMANI: But what was not put was who was present when he was assaulted like that.

MR STANDER: He admitted it.  Mr Ngo admitted this when I asked him.

CHAIRPERSON: My note of Mr Ngo's evidence when he was questioned by Mr Stander who said to him that Joe Makhubalo, Oupa, is here and he agreed.  And he said they were regarded as senior people, we were instructed to assault them more than the others.  They were taken to the Special Investigative Unit where we continued with the assaults.  He was then asked did you use a cricket bat and he said we used many things, sjamboks, planks, anything we could use.  Hit their heads against the wall, hit their heads, kicked them, chopped them.  So it was put to him, and he agreed that he was in that, took part in the assaults in the Special Investigation Unit's offices.

ADV MEMANI: I will leave the matter there, but I can say it is not clear whether he was agreeing that he was at the offices of the Special Investigative Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: He said so.  I have read to you what he said.  He said - oh, you say this witness hasn't?  Isn't it clear they were.  Mr Ngo said they were taken to the Special Investigative Unit where we continued with the assaults.  Where we continued with the assaults.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.  Now, is so far as Mr Motsamai is concerned, it was not put that he would have been present on an occasion where you were beaten up by Tereblanche.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I didn't put it to Mr Motsamai that he had been present in the office when the witness was assaulted by Mr Tereblanche, but you will remember that Mr Motsamai admitted that Mr Makhubalo had been assaulted several times  in his presence.   I didn't find it necessary to mention each and every office.  The evidence says that he was attacked and assaulted at various occasions, but we are limiting ourselves to two events, so I object to this statement.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Perhaps what was not specifically put, could very well be that he, Motsamai, did in fact personally also take part in the assault of the witness in Tereblanche's office.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, this is true.   But what I said to Mr Motsamai was that he had been attacked on various occasions and it wasn't necessary for me to specifically mention each event because there had been several such events.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Don't you think where you were in possession of the evidence that not only was he present but he did in fact take part in the actual assault, don't you think that warranted to be put to the witness if you did have that information?  Is it enough just to say I was present?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I think this is an aspect we can leave for argument, I don't want to get involved in an argument.  It is unfair to make the statement that I should have put it regarding that event.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, your clients - are they opposing the application for amnesty?

MR STANDER: Not at all, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't know even if you he to put anything to them or you need not even to give any evidence.

MR STANDER: That was my feeling as well, but I felt for the sake of truth that I wanted to put all the facts in front of the Commission and for this reason I did it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Wait a minute, but this could be important, because if your witness tells us that Motsamai also took part in the assault in Tereblanche's office, that could very well mean that Motsamai did not make a full disclosure and that is why Mr Memani is troubled by the fact that it was not put to Motsamai that he did more than what he told us, it wasn't put to him that he actually took part in the assault in Tereblanche's office.  He did tell us about the assault which took place in  Mamome's office.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, with all respect to Judge Ngoepe, it is not my task to illicit so much evidence, all I am trying to say is the disadvantaged people are not opposing the applicant's applications.  I didn't find it necessary to mention each specific incident in which Mr Motsamai was involved in the form of a statement.
	I cannot take this aspect any further than this.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see no problem why Mr Memani shouldn't put the question that he wanted to put to the witness.  He wanted to put to the witness that it was never put to Motsamai that Motsamai assaulted the witness of Tereblanche.
	That to me is a valid question, because it was in fact not put to Mr Motsamai, for whatever reason.  I don't think you can prevent Mr Memani from asking that question.

MR STANDER: As the Chairman pleases.