Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Chairperson, we went from Piet Retief to an area close to the border that I don't know very well, we hid our vehicle, we crossed the border and we waited next to a road.  A vehicle stopped and as I have already said, a person climbed out of the vehicle, opened the boot, weapons were cocked, the person left the vehicle, we waited for a while, we approached the area closer.

MR MOERANE: Yes, I am particularly interested in that time from then on, just describe the events slowly.

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: When the persons moved away from the vehicle, we waited a while and then began to move closer to the vehicle, we took up position next to the road.  The road made a slight embankment behind which we took up position and waited until the persons returned to the vehicle.

MR MOERANE: Yes?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The instruction was that we should wait until the persons had re-entered the vehicle and then we were to shoot them.  However, Mr Van Dyk opened fire when the persons were not entirely in the vehicle again and then everybody opened fire on the vehicle.

MR MOERANE: Yes, proceed please.

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: After the order was given to cease fire, we moved closer to the vehicle.  I cannot recall precisely where the person lay, but a person lay next to the vehicle, there was a Makarov firearm next to him, I took the firearm.  I cannot say precisely who shot the petrol tank, after which the vehicle was set alight and we departed from the scene immediately.

MR MOERANE: Who actually set the vehicle on fire?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I cannot say exactly, I only heard about it here.  When I made my statement, I could not recall precisely who the person was who had set the vehicle alight.

MR MOERANE: Well, could it have been you?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No, not definitely not Chairperson, then I would have known.

MR MOERANE: You must have been aware that the motor vehicle had been set on fire, not so?

MR BOOYENS: No Mr Chairman, I think my learned friend misunderstood something.  He does not say that he is unaware that the motor vehicle was set on fire, he said it wasn't him that set the motor vehicle on fire, because then he would have known it, he would have remembered it.  In other words, he did not know which of the other three individuals set it on fire, that was the tenure of the answer.

MR MOERANE: Were you aware that the motor vehicle was set on fire?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You saw it?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Why didn't you mention it in your application?  It is on page 230.

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: If I did not mention it, at that stage when I made my statement, it must have been that I simply didn't think about it, but it was not my intention to omit something such as the setting alight of the vehicle.

MR MOERANE: Why did you say that these people began to fire on you?  That was not true?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Chairperson, what was not true?

MR MOERANE: That those people fired on you?  The one deceased and the one that got away?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That was my reconstruction of the scene, I believed that I had been shot at, and that is why I reported it as such.

MR MOERANE: Mr Tait, if a person fires on you, there is no way that you are going to forget that, there is no way that you are going to mistake that, not so, particularly with your experience of about 200 contacts?  It is either these people fired on you or they did not fire on you, what is the truth?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The true position is that I believed that those persons shot at me.  When the first shots were fired from the person who shot first, I believed that this came from the enemy who were shooting at me, however, I believed that I was shot at and I also reported it as such.

MR MOERANE: I suggest to you that that was a version that was put up at the time that you  made your application, but which you know is not true.  What is your comment?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: My comment is that when I made this statement, for a very long time, I had had no contact with any of these persons and I also did not have any insight into what these persons had to say, I did not speak to them regarding the incident, I did not read anything about these incidents, what I have written here is my own version of what took place there.

MR MOERANE: It is not clear to me when you made your application for amnesty.  On page 233 there is no indication of a date, can you help us please with regard to the date?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I really cannot tell you at this moment precisely when I submitted my amnesty applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, more or less then if you can't do it precisely.  Do you remember maybe the year or the month?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I believe but I must say that I really am not certain, it may have been in 1998.  I am not certain, I cannot tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: It couldn't have been in 1998, because your amnesty application number is a 1996 number and in any event, 1998 you would have missed the boat because the final cut-off date was September 1997.

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Then I would accept it as 1996.

MR MOERANE: I have no further questions for this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Just one question, thank you Chairperson.  You said that you found a Makarov pistol at the scene, what did you do with that pistol?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Chairperson, as far as I know I gave the pistol to Warrant Officer Ras.

MS LOCKHAT: Do you know what he did with it?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No Chairperson.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any re-examination Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Just one aspect Mr Chairman.   Mr Tait, you were asked by my learned friend about the approximate number of persons who had died in contacts during the former South-West Africa and you provided a figure of 200 to 300.  Are those persons who were shot by you yourself, or persons who were shot dead during contacts in which you were involved?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: These were deaths in contacts in which I was involved.

MR BOOYENS: Thus you are not alleging that you yourself shot 200 to 300 people dead?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No Chairperson, that would be the total number for all the contacts.

MR BOOYENS: Perhaps something else Mr Chairperson, which does not necessarily emanate from what has been said here, but just to make things clear, you referred on page 230 to the member of the Piet Retief Security Branch as Botes, what is his actual surname, did you know him as Boats actually?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, that must be why I referred to Boats, it is actually Botha.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: On page 229, the sixth or the seventh line, Colonel De Kock was of the opinion that both these persons who were going to enter the country, it would appear that you also had information that only two persons would be infiltrating the country, is that correct?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Chairperson, I may have meant to say that those were actually the two persons who were going to bring the people into the country, it may have been an error or my part.

MR MALAN: But you recall that Ras gave evidence and you were present here, and he said that he thought that it would be two persons infiltrating on that night and here you refer to both the persons who were going to infiltrate the country as well as those persons who were going to assist them, and these were the persons who had to be eliminated.  It doesn't seem to be very important, but it would appear that ...