Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR KAHANOVITZ: Wasn't it your evidence earlier today when you were being asked questions by Ms Coleridge, that you did not give Mr van Zyl the times that the meeting would be held, you only told him it was at night?  Was that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I did not say to him there's going to be a meeting in the day, I told him there's going to be a meeting in the evening.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you couldn't tell him what time the meeting was?

ISGAK HARDIEN: As I've said before Sir, if I gave him a time I did.  I cannot say to you that I said it or not.  It is possible that I could have said to him: "Slang, look the meeting is at seven o'clock."  I will not dispute that.  I had to tell him what time the meeting was.  He doesn't know of the meetings, he doesn't know when they start of when they finish.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz.
	At that time did the Kewtown Youth Movement hold regular meetings?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I think once a week.  I cannot recall, but I do know they have meetings there.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the meetings usually start at more-or-less the same time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Chairperson, I cannot exactly say it started every week at 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock or 5 o'clock, but if they wanted a time I would have given a time to Slang.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, if there was evidence from a witness that you gave Mr van Zyl the time that the meeting would start and the time that the meeting would end and that the timing of the bomb blast was planned around that information, is that evidence true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm not disputing it, I could have given him a time, I could have said to him: "Slang, the meeting starts at 7 o'clock, it will go up to this time."  I do not know what time the bomb exploded.  My concern was that there's nobody in the hall, everybody left.  What they thought was their business, my main concern was that we agreed that nobody must be injured or be killed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I know you can remember your lines, but please answer my question.  What was my question?  Do you remember my question?

ISGAK HARDIEN: If I gave the time to Mr van Zyl.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In part.  I'm asking you if there is evidence that you gave the times to the CCB that the meeting would start and the meeting would end and that the planning as to when that bomb would go off was based on that information, is that evidence true?  That's what I asked you.  A simple yes or no would suffice.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall if the bomb will explode at that time or not, it could be that I gave them a time as to when the meeting started.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you had to drive them to the airport.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What time was their plane going to be?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I do not know when their flight was, I only had to take them to the airport and drop them off and I then left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you'll agree with me that - where were they going to fly to, Johannesburg?

ISGAK HARDIEN: They did not tell me if they were going to go to Durban, Jo'burg or P.E., I just had to take them to the airport.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did they not mention to you that their flight was at a particular time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm sorry?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did they not mention to you that their flight was at a particular time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not as far as I can recall.  Not what I can recall.  All that I know is that I took them to the airport and I went home afterwards.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When you drove to the airport did you drive slowly, did you drive fast?  Were you in a hurry to catch the plane?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I drove a normal speed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Normal?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not speed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you agreed to do this job for no payment at all, is that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: They did not say anything about money.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're the kind of person who agrees to go and place bombs for no payment?  What was your reason for ..(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: I will not say that.  During that time the UDF, the United Democratic Front and the Kewtown Youth Movement, this was now in the political time when everything was burned and I was against them or opposed them, I was part of the National Party all these years and this is now the opportunity to frighten them, I'm going to do this to frighten them.  It was not about money.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So out of your hatred of people in the United Democratic Front, you would have planted the bomb for free, is that your evidence?  That's how I understand your evidence.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz, if I could just ask a quick question.
	When did you for the very first time, learn that you were to place a bomb in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Really I cannot remember which month it was, if it was the day when Slang them phoned me to pick them up at the airport, I cannot remember if it was that day or at a previous opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't at the airport when you saw the bag with the bomb, it was before that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was at the airport.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before that that you knew about the bomb, or was that the first time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That was the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: So before that you had no idea whatsoever about the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.  I cannot remember if they mentioned it before, but I remember that day when they phoned me I received the bomb.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It must have come as a very pleasant surprise to you when Mr van Zyl handed you this R18 000 afterwards.  Was it a big surprise?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The biggest surprise was that they told me: "Gakkie, here's  R18 000 for you, the project was a success."

MR KAHANOVITZ: But I would have thought then you would have turned around and said: "But Mr van Zyl, why are you paying me money, I planted this bomb out of patriotism?"

ISGAK HARDIEN: Just ask again please, I did not hear.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I would have thought you would have refused the money, on your version, because you didn't want payment, you were doing it out of patriotism, for the love of your country, for the love of the National Party.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand, but here this person now brings me money, who's going to refuse?  I'll never refuse.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You know Mr van Zyl explained to the Committee why he offered you work in the first place, did you hear that evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I do not know anything about what Mr van Zyl testified.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl said he was looking for a criminal who would commit crimes for money.  What do you have to say about that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What do you mean you don't know?  Why do think this man comes - of all the people in the Western Cape that he could have hired, why you and Peaches?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I do not even know how this man came to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, that is not so, you know that your friend Peaches introduced you to Mr van Zyl.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Afterwards I found out that Peaches connected me with him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well don't you want to explain to the Committee why it is that you were offered that job?

ISGAK HARDIEN: All that I know is that the reason is that I knew all the people, I knew the area, I had access to any place, they will not ask me any questions, everybody knows me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It had absolutely nothing to do with your willingness to commit crimes?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I see.  So it must have come to as quite a shock when he asked you to go and plant a bomb, just out of the blue.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I will repeat it, it was not a surprise to me to go and plant a bomb because in my mind it's that we are going to scare the enemy, "UDF, and you will not have any more meetings in Kewtown."