Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Please switch on your microphone, Father. Thank you.

FATHER BUTI THLAGALE: Perhaps before one makes some comments on the way forward,   just to raise a number of concerns or issues that puzzled us. 
There's certainly a concern with the political expediency that gave rise to   this process of the Truth and Reconciliation. We admit that we cannot undo history   or the political comprises that were made in order to achieve a settlement.   There is, however, a concern that the victims may have been asked to sacrifice   individual justice for truth. We see that many victims not only had to sacrifice   justice in that sense but also the truth, for example there are people who still   don't know who killed their loved ones, where the body of their loved one is,   or who is responsible. Justice and truth, in a sense one can argue, have been   sacrificed for reconciliation. We are concerned that some of the perpetrators   of gross human rights violations do not take personal responsibility for their   actions, but keep on referring to their superiors. We can legitimately say that   we are angry that some political parties and leaders of the day have not taken   responsibility for the abuses which took place. 
Finally, we are concerned that the perpetrators, upon receiving amnesty, are   not always willing to make reparations personally. Indeed while the commission   might have a short life span, we are also concerned as to how this process will   evolve after this. The Catholic Church is committed to promoting the principle   of mutual acceptance and mutual recognition. Political arrangements by the State   may cater for this, but the State is not necessarily in a position to enforce   mutual acceptance and the respect for persons. And so faith communities could   cultivate the need to actively, visibly and consistently promote the spirit   of reconciliation. 
At the same time, we do ask ourselves about the very word we use reconciliation.   In our Catholic understanding of our own history, we rather call for a confession   and forgiveness and restitution. The Catholic Church is committed to promoting   rituals of reconciliation and to celebrate in those rituals publicly and in   so doing will seek the collaboration of the other faith communities. It seems   as a practical level there will be a need to identify appropriate public holidays,   religious and cultural events, during which these rituals can be celebrated.   There is need to bring people from diverse cultural backgrounds together if   we are going to achieve this goal of nation building. Furthermore, reconciliation   is not only between the victims and perpetrators, but also between the communities.   In this regard it seems desirable that there ought to be a body after the demise   of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that will co-ordinate the work of   promoting reconciliation and perhaps solicit funding from interested parties   such as the business sector. 
Such a process, we think, could then evolve a national calendar dedicated to   promoting peace and reconciliation. The Catholic Church is committed to supporting   efforts by government local authorities, non-governmental organisations and   community initiatives to promoting peaceful co-existence and good neighbourliness.   The Catholic Church on its part will urge and encourage leaders of different   faith communities and work together with them. And leaders of the various communities   who will be seen to be publicly working together for the common goal. 
There's fear that activities with regard to reconciliation in the post TRC   era might be left to chance. And therefore the church suggests that indeed there   ought to be a process put in place that will take care of this. ...[inaudible]   lobby the national government, business sector, unions and communities for symbolic   gestures of reconciliation. In particular, the Catholic Church recommends the   building of a memorial in the name of all those, all who lost their lives in   the struggle for freedom. We are aware that the reparation committee might have   a long list of these suggestions, but we think that the erection of a national   shrine to the unknown comrades, for example, or public event that will draw   people from diverse backgrounds together to celebrate this reconciliation will   go a long way towards creating a peaceful atmosphere. We further recommend that   in a symbolic fashion, it is still a desirable activity to have symbolic re-burials   of some of the people in South Africa who died or who were killed in exile. 
Finally, while we recognise that these will contribute towards the spirit of   reconciliation, we firmly believe that the crux of true reconciliation can only   come about through the creation of a fair and just economic system in which   ordinary people can live without fear in their homes, enjoy employment opportunities   and take care of their families. This has been the desire of the majority of   the oppressed people. We also believe that in attending to these, we will be   attending to a component of the kingdom of God on earth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Would you please switch off your Thank   you. Thomas?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I don't know to what extent does the Catholic Church admit that   there could be perpetrators within its ranks, and therefore offered to urge   and support these perpetrators to tell it all, as you put it. And of course   even to support their families to enable these people do exactly that, that   is rather than to tell it with the impunity of reserving some of the facts,   just to give it as it is and as they took part themselves in the whole murders   and abductions. You know, right through the process of TRC we have been meeting   the English speaking communities, assuming that the Catholic Church is largely   English speaking, who have always given a front that they were not the oppressors.   They were not the perpetrators. So I don't know when you refer to the perpetrators   who have not told it all, are you saying that perpetrators from other churches   or even perpetrators from within the Catholic Church, even after the Catholic   Church itself has given them the healing, the counselling, the support that   they should do so?

FATHER BUTI THLAGALE: I am not sure whether I have understood the question   well, but I think we see this as part of the public exercise in the first instance.   In other words there is a perception apart from singling out whether in the   Catholic community there are perpetrators on not. Yes there are perpetrators   within the Catholic community, but we are here talking about a perception which   therefore applies to everybody that somehow the perpetrators ought to take responsibility   for their acts and to be seen to be making reparation. So this would therefore   be irrespective of what community in particular you belong to. What we are really   saying ought to be addressed is the perception that perpetrators do not, apart   from perhaps some individuals, that in fact this is not why they have spoken   the truth as they see it, as they experience it, that is enough. And there seems   to be an unhappy state of affairs.