Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Here you explain about - if you will justallow me, Mr Chairman.  Because you see you have been asked hereas to why you killed Boetie and whether you knew what the dutyof the Municipal Police was.  If you say somebody is a policeyou know what a policeman must do.   Do you know what is a policeman?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you have any doubt about that,surely.

UNKNOWN: I will concede it, but what I wanted to findout from the applicant, just for clarity for our purposes, I thinkit will get clear what I am trying to get.  If the Chairman canjust allow me to ask my next question.  With your permission,Sir.   Let's forget about Boetie now.  Did you perceive the policeas enemies to the community, or did you perceive them to be onthe part of the community during these activities?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I perceived them as the enemies tothe community.

UNKNOWN: Did you perceive Boetie as a Municipal Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you see him as a police even though hewas a Municipal Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Gubuwe, I am going to refer to your applicationform, page 3 thereof.  I will read what you said in Afrikaans. You said "Hy", and I want to believe here the "hy"was the deceased, "Hy het die 3 miljoen bendelede ook beskerm". Do you understand that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: May you please repeat the questionor what you have just said.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In English you are saying, the deceased wasprotecting the members of the 3 million gang.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No.  I cannot hear you.   No, I don'tcarry any knowledge of that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am going to request Mr Gubuwe to speak loudwhen you answer me, please.  You testified when your counsel askeda question about the application form, you testified to the effectthat this is your handwriting.  Just remember that.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which means that what is written here is whatwas said by yourself or what comes from you.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now I want you to look again now at this sentencethat I have quoted, the sentence wherein you say he, I want tobelieve it was the deceased, was protecting members of the 3 milliongang, do you see that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Please speak loud.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.  I can see that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is it which you experienced or have seenof the deceased for you to conclude that he was protecting the3 million gang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: According to the way he approachedhim, I thought he was protecting them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The manner in which he came to you then youbelieved that he was protecting the 3 million gang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, because he said nothing to me. I asked him what was his reason.  He never gave me a reason. As soon as he saw me he drew out his gun.  And I didn't thinkhe wanted to kill me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At that moment were you involved in a fightor a scuffle with any member of the 3 million gang, the time whenthe deceased came on the scene?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I didn't fight with any of the3 million gang  members.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now how can you say the manner of his approachshowed that he was protecting the 3 million gang member?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: May I speak?  This person was askedwhat was the reason for him to scuffle me and he never answered. All he did was that he drew out his gun.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Gubuwe, to save time, I take it that youdon't want to answer my question.  Let's proceed to the next one,the same paragraph.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe, sorry, could I just find out. Who helped you to complete this form?  Or who told you what towrite in the form?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I was with Koot de Ring(?)

UNKNOWN: And did he tell you what to write in theform?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, he was only helping me with Afrikaans.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just to make a follow-up on that.  If he washelping you in the Afrikaans language, will I be correct to saythat the idea is yours?  The answers are yours.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, he only helped me in the Afrikaanslanguage.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Correct.  If you move further down on that sameparagraph, I will quote, "Ons was ses lede van die YouthLeague".   Do you see that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I can see that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Earlier on I recall I asked you a question asto how many were you when you attacked him, do you remember that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You said to me you were three, do you rememberthat?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.  The people who perpetrated theincident were three.  But when things started we were about five.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's continue on that sentence, the spiritof the sentence.  "Ons was ses lede van die Youth Leaguesaam toe ons hom op straat ontmoet".  How do you explainthat one?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No.  What I know is that we were fivewhen we met on the street, but the people who perpetrated thisincident were three.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you meet him in the street, did you meetthe deceased in the street?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I saw him on the street;  whenhe got out of the house, we got out after him, and then we methim at the corner.   That is where we met him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My question is so simple.  Did you meet thedeceased in the street?

<UNKNOWN>: : I cannot gainsay that.  You say "ons hethard teenoor hom gehaat omdat baie van ons lede deur hulle gedoodis".   He say we hated him, free translation, because manyof our members were killed by them.   Who is this them?   ANSWER:  What I would ask is, I don't understand Afrikaans at all andthe person who was helping me to write maybe he can understandwhat I was saying because I never talked about hatred.   Maybethe person who helped me with the Afrikaans is the one who canunderstand me.

JUDGE MGOEPE: : Mr Gobuwe, in your answer to what Mr Matsepeasked you, you said you regarded the police as an enemy?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did I understand you to mean that you alsoregarded Minister of Police as an enemy?

ANSWER: Everyone was a policeman sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : Including Minister of Police, that I'm askingyou?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : My question really is why did you regard Ministerof Police as an enemy?

ANSWER: These people sir according to how things happenedat Maokeng that is what made me perceive them as enemies becausethey were not able to help us when we were being attacked by theThree Million Gang.   So such people I perceived them as enemies,especially because they were wearing uniforms and they had gunson them, so that meant that they were able to protect us and especiallybecause people who were dying had never committed any offencebut they couldn't do that, they couldn't help us out.

JUDGE WILSON: : You've been asked quite a lot about thisparagraph in your application.   I think to make it more sensible,I want to put another sentence to you.   The second sentence ofthat paragraph reads
  "Dit was algemeen bekend aan ons dat hy (dis die beskuldigde)in meeloper was van die Drie Miljoen Bende wie baie lede van dieANC, SANCA en publiek vermoor het."
 Can you read that there?   Do you see that there, the secondsentence?   That's what you put in your application form, thatthe deceased was known to you.

ANSWER: May you please repeat your question?

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you say, you have said, do you agree youhave said in the application form, it's in front of you now
  "Dit was algemeen bekend aan ons dat hy 'n meeloper wasvan die Drie Miljoen Bende wie baie lede van die ANC, SANCA enpubliek vermoor het."
 You said that in your application form.   It was after that yousaid: 
  "Hy het die Drie Miljoen Bende lede ook beskerm."
 Is that so?

ANSWER: No I didn't say such things the way they wereput, I think it's because I don't know Afrikaans, maybe this personwho was writing may have been Afrikaans, he couldn't understandme well.