Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman we are dealing specifically with the evidence that Mr Erasmus arranged for Mr Ngo to be taken to Mr Venter's house and that Mr Erasmus knew Mr Venter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If this issue of Kwaggafontein and the plot and this sort of thing, are they all about that aspect?

ADV MEMANI: I'm sorry Mr Chairman I - you said Kwaggafontein and what?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I was trying to find out whether for the past five minutes this aspect that we are to deal with because there can be a way of putting your question to Mr Erasmus to clear this up.  Is the issue that the witness had arranged accommodation for Mr Ngo to be accommodated with Mr Venter?

ADV MEMANI: It's one of the issues Mr Chairman that generally he knew Mr Venter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it so that you at some point you arranged accommodation for Mr Ngo with Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Honourable Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You said that you knew Mr Venter at some stage.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, after Mr Ngo introduced me to Mr Venter, when he was already there, I met him there at Mr Venter's.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What would you say to a suggestion that after Ngo experienced I think an attack or something, Security Branch arranged accommodation for him with Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman that he was taken to Mr Venter after his attack by the Security Branch, I believe this  happened, I was not personally here at that time but the point is Mr Ngo stayed there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Already before he was attacked he was already living there with Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And was it arranged by the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman, I met Mr Venter after Mr Ngo introduced me to Mr Venter and then Mr Ngo told me that he was living there.  It was long before this incident.

ADV MEMANI: Now I want to ask you about another aspect, the relationship between you and Mr Ngo.  Is it correct that the reason why you recommended the employment of Mr Ngo despite the fact that he had previous conviction, is it because you trusted him or believed that he was a capable person?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes I believed he was a capable person and he was rejected by his community and that was caused by the police action and I tried to attempt to create a career for him so that he could do something with his life.  I trusted him, I trusted him sincerely.

ADV MEMANI: And did you trust in him ever cease to exist?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman after the attack or the murder on Mr Venter, I was very disappointed, I could not believe that he was arrested for that murder. But afterwards I couldn't help but believe in that.

ADV MEMANI: You ceased trusting him once you believed that he had been arrested in connection with the murder.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now  Mr Erasmus, when Ngo started living with Mr Venter, did you make enquiries with Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman, I met him he invited me into his house.  At later stages he presented me with coffee, we drank some coffee and he told me he was working at the railways.  I made no enquirers regarding this man.

ADV MEMANI: I think we are hearing it for the first time that Mr Venter was with the railways.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: The record is full of that evidence Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: That  Mr Venter worked for the railways.

UNKNOWN: Mr Erasmus, to go back to Mr Venter.  Did Mr Venter ever tell you that Mr Ngo worked with him in the garden and worked for his mother in the garden?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, he did work in the garden for Mr Venter; he was washing dishes one evening when I came there, he also worked in the house. The question regarding his mother, I did not know about that, that he also worked for her.

ADV MEMANI: Now we look at the record later, but it is not my recollection that it was ever admitted that Mr Venter actually worked for the railways. Now let us proceed.  Did you find anything else about Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I made no enquiries concerning Mr Venter, he was an ordinary member of the Community, nobody outstanding or extraordinary.

ADV MEMANI: But were you not curious to know with what sort of person or person of what background your informer was living?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman there was nothing strange about Mr Venter, he was an ordinary railway clerk.

ADV MEMANI: No I'm not suggesting that there was anything strange about him, but purely as a matter of enabling you to work well and properly with your informer, didn't you want to know the background or have some information about the person who is now accommodating your informer?
What if he was a member of MK or APLA, Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Regarding that I initially did not tell Mr Venter the truth, I told him that my relationship with Mr Ngo was related to drug smuggling or dagga smuggling at schools and we required information regarding that.  I never told him the real reason for working with Mr Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Does that mean you didn't quite trust him?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well I had to explain my presence there, why I met him there and that's how I explained that.  I don't know whether Mr Venter ever knew what the real reason was why I came to see Mr Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Did you ask Mr Ngo as to why he went to live with Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He explained to me Mr Chairman that he was working in the garden in his free time and that Mr Venter gave him accommodation there, offered him accommodation and that's why he was staying there.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that all he told you about the relationship?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't you say something rather more in your affidavit?   Paragraph 3.3 of your affidavit.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, that inference I drew after the court case.

ADV MEMANI: Did you know that Ngo apart, Mr Venter lived alone in that house?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes I knew that.

ADV MEMANI: Was it a big house?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes it was an ordinary house for that residential area with three bedrooms, two bathrooms, two garages.  It was quite a big house.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Venter wasn't exactly a very young person.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct yes.

ADV MEMANI: You didn't wonder why is this man living alone in such a big house and then go and live there - but what sort of person is he?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I often wondered about that, that is correct; but my interest was to meet Mr Ngo there.  I had no direct interest in Mr Venter and that is why I'm saying that the conclusion I came to in my statement was after the trial.  Many things became clear then.  At that stage I wondered about many things.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus do you want us to believe that an employer would have been happy to hear that his employee, his gardener was actually a drug smuggler and continue to employ him?

JUDGE WILSON: I don't think that that was said, what I understood Mr Erasmus was that he was investigating drug smuggling.  That's, wasn't it what you put in that Mr Ngo was assisting you.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Mr Ngo had to obtain information among the school children.

ADV MEMANI: Now I might have misheard you then, then Mr Erasmus, according to you that you still know about Mr Venter himself.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I did not give so much attention to Mr Venter, I wasn't interested in him.  He gave accommodation to my informer and I was happy about that.  I did not visit Mr Venter's house everyday.  I count the times I visited his house on my two hands.