Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: First of all it says that this student, referring to Mr Ngo had to undergo training until the 4th of July and he had to be transferred to Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: And then secondly he said he had to leave for Ladybrand immediately, there's a code attached there.  What does that refer to?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is the payment point number.

MR VISSER: And the third paragraph says this is not regarded as a transfer, therefore transfer must not be reported according to the SAP.  What do these words mean?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: The SAP 172 is a form used by the police to indicate any changes in the personal circumstances of any staff member and it's reported to head office by this form, and this means that the point where his salary is paid is changed and the area commissioners are involved here regarding correspondence.  A 172 transfer entails a lot of administrative work and it is my conclusion to prevent this, all these administrative arrangements that he should be transferred.

MR VISSER: For this month in Ladysmith you're not going into all this administrative work.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And this was the instruction from the office of the Divisional Commander?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Do you see anything sinister in this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, and I'm going to lead you through all of these, Mr Chairman because at a certain stage Mr Motsamai said during evidence that in all these instances he did receive instructions.

UNKNOWN: Mr Visser are you still busy with Mr Ngo, have we finished his matter because you're referring to Mr Motsamai now?

MR VISSER: I'm busy with Mr Motsamai now Mr Chairman.  Mr Motsamai applied in 14 paragraphs from page 146 to 148 from Bundle A.  Firstly he refers on page 146 to a murder in Melk Street in Botsabelo and today we know that this refers to the murder on George Mutsi.  Do you have any knowledge of this matter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Last year during - I've heard about this for the first time.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with this murder?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Either as a person who gave instructions or participated in any way?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Secondly the second paragraph refers to the arson regarding the house of Winnie Mandela in Brandfort.  We know Mr Erasmus from registers presented as exhibits before the Committee that Mrs Mandela's house as well as her clinic were attacked during two occasions in 1985.  Did you have anything to do with this or did you give instructions regarding this, that this should be done?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you have knowledge of any member of the Security Branch being involved in this matter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 3 reference is made to a petrol bomb attack on a house of a member of Umkhonte we Sizwe, namely Bobby Mbotsa.  Mr Motsamai qualified this by saying that this was the house where Mr Mbotsa's parents lived in Mpinda street in Botsabelo.  Did you give any instructions in this regard that this offence should be committed.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Then in paragraph 4 on page 146 he referred to an attack by means of petrol bombs on the house of a businessman with the name of Nikos in Plaatje Street in Botsabelo.  Is there anything you can tell us about this.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you give any instructions or did you participate in this attack?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 5 reference is made by Mr Motsamai to the setting alight of a motor vehicle belonging to Jannie Mohape.  Did you give instructions in this regard or did you participate in any other way in this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: On page 147, Mr Motsamai alleges that he, Mamome, Lathale, Miningwa attacked with petrol bombs the house of Sidney Mosongwana.  Do you have any knowledge of this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you give any instructions in this regard? Did you participate in this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 7 on page 147, Mr Motsamai said that he and Mr Mamome arranged it in such a way that members of the uniformed branch, Mr Sydney Msuswana's youngest brother referred to as Mathews, had to be shot by the uniformed branch. Do you have any knowledge of this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I know that such an incident had taken place and Mathews Msuswana was shot by the police.

MR VISSER: There was a civil case arising from this matter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct, as far as I know the police had lost the civil case and they had to pay certain moneys. The police had to pay damages.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with this incident? by means of instructions or anything else?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 8 on page 147, Mr Motsamai says that he applies for amnesty for an incident during which he and Mr Mamome and Mr Ngo were involved in a petrol bomb attack on the house of Sydney Mzuzwana, that was in the Xhosa sections in Rocklands, Bloemfontein or in the previous Xhosa section.  Do you have any knowledge of this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No nothing in detail.  Regarding this incident, many of these types of incidents of houses being set alight took place, I don't know of this specific incident.

MR VISSER: How often were houses set alight during '85/'86 in the townships?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Various houses were burned to the ground during that time.  In my capacity as an officer we received report-backs during the management meetings every morning, that's why I knew about these incidents.

MR VISSER: I don't know whether I've already asked you this, did you receive any instructions regarding these incidents?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 9 Mr Motsamai applied for amnesty for an incident where he says that he and Mamome used petrol bombs to attack a motor vehicle belonging to a female teacher Thabang.  Now Mr Mamome said that that should read Thabata.  Do you know a person by the name of Thabata?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What do you know of this person? Who was this person.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That was a person who at a certain stage she was also suspected by the Security Police.  I never had anything to do him but the name was well-known to me. He was a man.

MR VISSER: Did you give any instructions or had anything to do with any assault by means of petrol bombs on his motor vehicle?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 10 Mr Motsamai said that he, Mamome, Morakile, Muchehala, Litsheo and Lesale, used petrol bombs to attack the house of a teacher Velasa.  Do you know anything about this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know anything about it.

MR VISSER: Did you anyhow give instructions or participated in this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And on page 147 paragraph 11, Mr Motsamai said that other houses of political activists in Mangahoem were attacked by means of petrol bombs by him and Mamome and he says, he refers to two incidents, the one was the house belonging to Khuze and Sekgopi Malepo.  Do you know anything about the arson of the houses belonging to these people?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.