Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MR GOOSEN: So I take it from that that an operation involving Special Forces people inside the country, and involving the elimination, the killing of an individual, had been carried out and that came to your attention subsequent to that operation and that in consequence thereof you then moved to set up a procedure to deal with those situations, is that correct?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: I have already said so Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: May I take it then that an operation involving a member of the South African Defence Force which involved the killing of a person inside the country which had not been authorised, had not been authorised by you, prior to it being carried out, would represent quite a serious problem for the South African Defence Force, is that correct?  It is in fact a crime?

CHAIRPERSON: In fact in the interest of time, may I just ask the question.  Now that when you came to know that people had been killed consequent upon General Joubert having gone ahead with an operation like that, did you as Chief of the South African Defence Force take any action against General Joubert?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Yes, Mr Chairman, it must have been some weeks after the event, that it was brought to my notice.  And by that time, there were already police investigations into the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: He remained Head of the Special Forces after that event with your knowledge of his involvement in those sort of things?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And at no time was he removed as a result, was he removed as a consequence of his involvement in that specific operation, when he was removed?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, I didn't want to meddle into the matter when it was brought to my attention, for reasons as I have said that there was already a police investigation on the go.
 And I thought that the best way to handle this would be to let justice take its course.  And to decide afterwards, but in the meantime, I convened this meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Not to remand him, but to set procedures for such operations to take place with a certain approval?  It was certainly not to reprimand him?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: It was Mr Chairman, to prevent another occurrence of the same type, but in the meantime General Joubert's position was that he thought that he was acting bona fide and that the operation was in fact authorised by the Police Chiefs.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you accept that?  Did you accept his understanding of the position?  I am talking about you as his Chief, as his boss?  Did you accept the reasonableness of his understanding at the time and was that the reason that you felt that you shouldn't proceed against him?
 It was something that in your view had been carried unlawfully, a person or persons had been murdered by a person who reported directly to you.  Are you saying to this Commission that all that you could do in the circumstances was simply to say, these things should never happen again?  But to the extent that the Police are enquiring about it, I will do no more?  Was that all that you could do as Chief of the South African Defence Force to take preventive measures that these should not take place again, was that all that you could do?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, the only thing I did was not just to say it should not happen again.  I created a mechanism to take control of the situation.

MR GOOSEN: General Geldenhuys, you were confronted a few weeks after the incident with knowledge that a person under your command had authorised the murder of an individual or individuals.
This is a serious crime.  You knew that there was a Police investigation underway.  It no doubt also represents an offence in terms of the Military Discipline Code, unlawful, unauthorised actions carried out by a subordinate Officer and you did nothing about it?  You didn't court martial him?  You didn't report it to the Police?  All you did was you took control of the situation by putting in place a mechanism in terms of which future such operations could be authorised?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: No Mr Chairman, it had already been reported to the Police.

MR GOOSEN: Did you report to the Police that an Officer under your command had authorised the murder of another person in this country?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: It was reported to me by my second in command, if you like, who was the Acting Chief of the Defence Force in my absence, that it had been reported to the Police and that the investigation was already in some stage of progress, details I can't remember, but it could have been that they said that the inquest has already been initiated.   That a suspect had been identified, and that an identification parade had already been done or was being arranged.  And if at that stage, I would have established an enquiry, a Council of Enquiry, I had to use the same witnesses like the Police were using.  At that stage, if I had established a court martial, it would have been interference in the normal course of justice.

MR GOOSEN: Did you approach the Attorney General's office with information to the effect that General Joubert had in a discussion with you confirmed that he had authorised the murder of an individual or individuals?  You had very relevant information, evidence which you could tender.  Did you at that stage, approach the Prosecuting authorities to make available that evidence, yes or no?

CHAIRPERSON: Can I piggyback a second question on that question.  Did you for instance, when you understood that it was General Joubert's impression that the South African Police had authorised this thing, did you consult the Head of the South African Police and say listen something has happened here, and it is the understanding of the person who was involved in this thing, that you were actually authorising or you had authorised this thing?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, this information was already given to me that these steps had been taken when it was reported to me a few weeks after the event.

CHAIRPERSON: The question still stands.  It is a question, we just want a historical fact, both Mr Goosen and I.  Did you do it?  Did you ask the Attorney General, did you ask the Chief of the Police as the Head, whether there was an acting person, but as the Chief of the Defence Force, did you say okay, they may well have reported the matter to the Police, but now I am possessed with this knowledge of a murder or murders that have been committed by a person who is my direct underling.

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, all these things which you have mentioned now which I should have said to the Head of the Police, had already been told to him by my predecessor.  As I said it was not a few days after the event that I arrived back, it was a few weeks after.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we do understand that evidence.  But we want to know and it is a simple thing, if you did you did, if you did not, you did not.

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, I did not go to the Attorney General.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did not seek to know from the Head of the Police whether in fact General Joubert's understanding that here had been authorisation by the Police for that operation to take place, was in fact so?  You did not?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, I might have done that, but I can't remember those details.

MR GOOSEN: If I may just come in here, General was there in fact a full inquest into those deaths?  In fact you know that there wasn't.  There wasn't an inquest at which General Joubert gave evidence, was there?  In fact the deaths were completely covered up, isn't that correct?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Not as far as I know Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: Did General Joubert give evidence at an inquest into those killings?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: I can't remember Mr Chairman.