Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR DU TOIT: I got the feeling that the people trusted me and I had confidence that the people would take the necessary steps and that they would take this whole situation very seriously.

MARY BURTON: By the people now do you mean the community?

MR DU TOIT: No I refer to the Police, that the Police would react ...(intervention)

MARY BURTON: That they would believe the information you gave them and they would take serious steps to prevent conflict?

MR DU TOIT: Beslis - hulle sal beslis verstaan die boedskap dat gevaar dryg en hulle opskerping doen in daardie verband.(not translated)

MARY BURTON: In this last day or two we have been hearing testimony from people who have spoken time and again of casspirs in the area, of the might of the Police force, very visible but yet not taking action to keep people apart to prevent conflict breaking out, are you aware of that, certainly that very strong view held by observers and people in the community?

MR DU TOIT: The casspirs and the Police vehicles patrolled the area.  It is difficult for me to answer that question of whether the Police did not act.  It is difficult for me, I was not present there during specific incidents, so it's difficult for me to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala wants to ask a question Mary, Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr du Toit in Mr Knipe's testimony yesterday he stated that, and I quote, "you carried a torch for the vigilante leaders in Crossroads", and then he later said that while he was at the unit you never supplied him with any information which was of any value.  Why would Mr Knipe have had such an opinion of you?  And wouldn't this suggest to you that you were not helpful in his investigation where it dealt with the Witdoeke?

MR DU TOIT: Madam Chair regarding Mr Knipe I do not have much to say.  I did cooperate with the detective branch, not with him specifically but with his other colleagues.  I had a close relationship with his other colleagues and I gave my full cooperation at all times.  Regarding any investigation, not specifically referring to Mr Knipe specifically because he was involved in other units, but I did cooperate closely with the detective branch.
 And what was your second question, could you repeat that please?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Can you give us the name of the person with whom you cooperated in the detective branch?

MR DU TOIT: I cooperated with all the members of the detective branch in Guguletu, I knew all the members.  It's difficult for me to make a distinction between those people.  I had contact with all the people.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So you had contact with all the people except Mr Knipe?

MR DU TOIT: Yes Mr Knipe was involved in other units.  The Police is divided into various sections and groups and it is not on purpose that I did not have personal contact with Mr Knipe.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  I'd like to go back again to the question of possible prevention.  I have the sense that you were very close to the ground, you understood what was happening in the community.  We have the feeling that perhaps you were closer to one grouping than another, as has been said the image was used that you "carried a torch" for Mr Ngxobongwana and the people who were referred to as Witdoeke.  But in any case you knew this area, you knew the people who were involved and you were giving warnings to the Joint Security system as a whole, right up to the very national levels about what was happening and what could happen, surely it was terrible for you to watch this conflict break out in spite of the warnings that you were repeatedly giving?

MR DU TOIT: What is your question exactly?

MARY BURTON: My question is how did you feel about the preventive action which you had hoped would take place and what steps were taken on the basis of your advice?

MR DU TOIT: I felt that the Police were deployed, that the had the necessary information and that they could also personally observe the situation.  It was a period of violence and the Police functioned at its top potential.
I did not know what the Police could have done otherwise.

MARY BURTON: I think it was in one of the interviews with our investigation unit you used the phrase "cleaning up operations", could you elaborate on what you meant by "cleaning up operations"?

MR DU TOIT: No I don't think I ever used that term, it was a misunderstanding.

MR BRAND: Chairperson if we could just have an indication of where to find the reference, if we might just get a reference to the document we might perhaps be able to answer the question.

MARY BURTON: If I may I will just ask the investigation unit if they can look it up so that I don't waste our time while we do that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We've just been told by the investigators that it is part of his testimony given.

MR BRAND: Yes I accept that it is ...(intervention)

MARY BURTON: The page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh the reference.

MARY BURTON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which testimony was that ...(intervention)

MARY BURTON: We will go on for the moment and see how it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

MARY BURTON: I am still just trying to press for a feeling about what steps you think could have been taken to prevent the levels of conflict that happened.  Did you for example report to Mr Odendaal about your anxiety about the levels of conflict?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, Major Odendaal and myself often talked about this matter.  We were worried about this matter, we were worried about the situation, there was correspondence and faxes, telefaxes in this regard and personally we also talked about this situation.  I was convinced that he was doing everything possible to prevent the conflict.  I could not think of any other steps which he could have taken.   It's very difficult for me to explain any further.

MARY BURTON: It just seems to us, I think, after all we've heard that with all the might of the security services that it was impossible to prevent such a serious conflict breaking out between two groups of people who had weapons but who were certainly armed in a way that would have prevented them from resisting action taken by the Police.  Anyway I think I won't pursue that any further.
 I'd like to just go back once again to the gathering of information and to ask you whether you were aware of the presence of members of Umkhonto weSizwe in the area, in any of the camps prior to the major attack on the 9th, 10th and 11th of June?

MR DU TOIT: I heard rumours that members of Umkhonto weSizwe were present in the area but I could never affirm that, it was only rumours.

MARY BURTON: Not part of any formal reports that were given to you?

MR DU TOIT: No, never.

MARY BURTON: So it was unconfirmed as far as you were concerned?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

MARY BURTON: Chairperson I have no further questions at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Members of the panel, Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair.  Did you continue to function as a gatherer of information and as a person who reported on the information you have gathered after the incidents of the 9th, the 10th and the 11th of June 1986?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I provided a full report on these events.

MR NTSEBEZA: And who did you provide those reports to?

MR DU TOIT: Those reports were provided in the usual way.  It was to Pretoria, the Commissioner of the South African Police and the Divisional Commissioner in Cape Town.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you supply any reports to the Murder and Robbery Squad?

MR DU TOIT: No that was not the routine we followed, the Divisional Commissioner had to distribute these reports to the various branches of the Police.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you expect that those reports would have come to those people who were doing investigations as to the crimes that could have been committed in those two days?

MR DU TOIT: Yes it was investigated.