Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-11

MR NGUBANE: Are there any operations that you conducted in the company of Israel Nyoni Hlongwane, on of the applicants?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No.

MR NGUBANE: Did you have a hit-list of UDF people that were to be eliminated at Mpumalanga?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I did not but I knew that here at Mpumalanga there were comrades were so and so and so and so and so and so.

MR NGUBANE: So there was no written hit-list that was given to you, that you should attack certain houses and attack certain people, is that your evidence?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, there is no such.

MR NGUBANE: The gentleman who you talked about who was a policeman, Mabeda, did you attack his family or his relatives at any stage?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: You say Mabeda?

MR NGUBANE: Sorry, sorry, that's the wrong name, Ntagani.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, where we were attacking was the Chonco's house which was the base of the comrades, where they used to camp.  Our attack or the purpose of our attack was because we were told or we have heard that he was there at that particular time.  Whether he was a relative or whatsoever, I don't know.  What we know is that he was there because he was a comrade and they were the comrades.

MR NGUBANE: So you wouldn't know, from what you have told us, you wouldn't know anything about the killing Nkosinati Ntagani, Sofiso Ntagani and the disappearance of Mkosinati Ntagani?  You don't know those people?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I know nothing.  What I know is that he died but by then I was no longer at Mpumalanga.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know a gentleman who was a KwaZulu MP, by the name Mandla Ndlovu?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I know him.

MR NGUBANE: Did you receive any command from him to conduct any of the operations?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, never.

MR NGUBANE: You were attacking UDF strongholds, were certain schools in Mpumalanga branded by you in IFP fold, as the UDF strongholds?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, there were schools that I knew but I've never participated in any of their attacks.

MR NGUBANE: Now you have told us about one Jabulani Makatini, the policeman you were working with, do you know what became of him?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I don't understand your question, what do you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to Jabulani Makatini?  You've spoken about Jabulani Makatini, is he still alive, do you know what happened to him if he is, where did he go, do you know what happened to him?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: The last time I saw him was in 1994.  I don't know his whereabouts now and I've never heard anything thereafter.

MR NGUBANE: Turning to your brief spell in Pietermaritzburg, in the area known as Natengi, can you recall when a bus was attacked coming from a funeral of one, Aron Mabuza?  Do you know anything about that?  That was on the 30th of December.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I did hear that a bus was attacked
attacked at Natengi.  I had just left by then but the details I don't have, and who attacked there I don't know, and whose funeral that was, I don't know but I heard that there was a bus that was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that attack take place while you were spending your time in Pietermaritzburg, at the time you had your brief spell there?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, by that time I had left Maritzburg.

MR NGUBANE: Coming back to Mpumalanga, did you know a lady who was a UDF activist by the name of Mrs Mvelase who resided at C503?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just repeat that name again please Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Judge.   Mrs Mvelase: M-V-E-L-A-S-E.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I don't.

MR NGUBANE: Now is it your evidence then that there are no other UDF targets that you participated in executing, other than those that are contained in your affidavit?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, that is my evidence, except for when we were doing patrols.  I explained there that I do not know whether some person died or was injured but besides that that is all my evidence.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  And in your affidavit you refer to the incidents in Clermont, do you know anything about the attack on the house of a prominent lawyer by the name of Mr Aubrey Nbezi?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I don't have any knowledge about that.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.
	Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions to ask?

MR HEWITT: Yes, I do, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Khumalo, I want to turn to the killing of Mrs Xhaba.  Now before you killed her did you ever have any personal dealings with her?  Had you ever met her before?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I had not spoken nor met her before.

MR HEWITT: So there's no question of you having had any personal grudge against Mrs Xhaba?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I had not seen her before so I did not have a grudge against her.

MR HEWITT: So your killing of her was strictly a professional killing in the line of duty, as you saw it?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR HEWITT: So can I take it from that answer that it would be out of the question for you to want to torture her before killing her?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I had no reason to torture her.

MR HEWITT: Right.  I want to turn to your affidavit where you deal with the killing of Mrs Xhaba, and at page 365, at the bottom of page 365 where you state the following
"As she climbed the last staircase I caught up with her"
Do you see that there?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I see it.

MR HEWITT: Could you please indicate to the Committee how far you were from her when you caught up with her on the staircase?  If you could do it by pointing out with your hand to some point in this hall so we have an idea of where you were in relation to her when you caught up with her.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: ...[no English translation]

MR HEWITT: Are you now pointing to - sorry, I didn't wait for the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, if you could repeat your answer so the Interpreters can catch it.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I could have been sitting there and she was just right at the corner of this box but she was ahead of me because I was at the bottom of the staircase.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt, the distance indicated from where the witness is sitting to the corner of the interpretation box is approximately two and a half paces, would you agree?

MR HEWITT: I accept that Mr Chairman.
	So that distance you've indicated at two and a half paces is the distance you were behind her when you caught up with her and her back was still towards you, is that correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Please repeat the question.

MR HEWITT: That distance you pointed out now is the distance that you got to her when her back was still turned towards you, correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, she was in front and I was behind her.

MR HEWITT: Yes, and her back was facing you when you were that distance of two and a half paces from here, correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, she was in front and as I stamped on the last staircase she turned.

MR HEWITT: So when you stamped on the last staircase, did she turn to face you at that distance of about two and half paces from you?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, she turned her head.  I cannot be sure whether she just turned her upper body or her whole self.

MR HEWITT: But in any event she was two and a half paces from you just before you stamped your foot, and she was two and a half paces from you when she turned after you'd stamped your foot and you then shot her, correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWITT: You were armed with an HMC, correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR HEWITT: HMC stands for Hand Machine Carbine, doesn't it?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR HEWITT: That is an automatic weapon?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, it is.