Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Well the new 400's we bought just subsequent to that, when was it, '91, 1991, were 135 million dollars, you can work out the rand value.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: So it was, would a figure of 400 million rand be close, give or take a few shillings?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Small change?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja.   350, something like that, or depending on - okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Let me put to you an interpretation on what Margo said to Scott.   "The country cannot afford, it's going to cost the country 400 million rand", which is give or take a few shillings, the price of a Boeing.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay?   And the interpretation which I wish to place on that is that if the insurers had known about the true facts of the Helderberg, they would have delayed or refused to pay out that claim.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja, one can make that deduction.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Did they ever pay you out the claim?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes, they did.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Lloyds of London paid out the full amount?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know whether it was Lloyds, because we go through a whole consortium.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But believe me it was Lloyds.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And they paid out?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes they did.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Did you ever make any disclosures to Lloyds that the airline may or may not have been carrying weapons of war?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Did you ever say to them, "On the odd occasion, we're going to be carrying explosives for Armscor"?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: We never did.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: So if they found out about the fact that you were, that would have been a material non-disclosure?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And they would have told you to take your claim and take a hike?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: And that is probably what Margo meant when he said that to Ray Scott?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I mean... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, let me deal with another point.   The role of a radio operator at ZUR, how would you describe that in the hierarchy of SAA, was it close to your position... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...in terms of seniority, was it a lowly position?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Very lowly?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I wouldn't say very lowly.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well how much lower could you get than a radio operator, apart from being possibly a cleaner or one of those very menial tasks?   It was, as I understand his job, it was menial and it required very little skill, he had to keep notes of what was said... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...and he had to see that the tapes didn't get fouled up, and it was not a job that required a rocket scientist to do?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: What is Mr Nadel doing now?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Was he the operator?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I have got no idea.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware that he became the area manager for SAA in Miami?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, that was subsequent to my time.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It was very close to your time that that happened.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: When was this?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It was shortly after the accident, Mr Van der Veer.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: You retired in '93?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That's right, but we didn't fly to Miami then.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: We started flying, when was it, July, was it 1990 again.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: And I introduced, we introduced, when did we introduce the first flight to Miami?   I can't remember.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You tell me.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Probably '91, I don't know.   I'll have to check up.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: '91?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Was it?   I think so, I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I honestly don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct, which is two years before you retired?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And therefore you did fly to Miami shortly after the accident?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, that's not shortly after the accident... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It's within a year?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...that's four, five years later.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No, '91?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm sorry, the accident happened in '87.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.   Yes, after the inquiry.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: After the inquiry.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: When was the inquiry?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: The inquiry happened about 18 months after the accident, so that... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: So that's '89.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...must have been the middle of '89.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And within two years, in other words within a year, 18 months, Vernon Nadel was the manager for SAA in Miami, is that correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I cannot, I cannot, sorry, if you look at the records, then that's correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That is correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay, I'm not denying that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I want to put it to you that that is correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Is that, in your experience, a fairly meteoric rise?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, not necessarily.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Can you give me the name of one other person who has enjoyed a similar rise from radio operator status to area manager in your airline?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm sorry, I can't answer that question, you can look at the records, but the point I'm trying to make, first of all, cargo, at one stage, at that stage, was not the most important section of SAA, we had no cargo division, if you remember, and the reason for that simply is this, because in the sanction time we had to fly around the bulge, and the aircraft has a limited payload, so you carry the kilo that brings you the best result, which means passengers, so it was only, if I'm correct, round about '91, and I stand corrected, you can look at the records, that we started in fact with the cargo division, okay?   So if he was cargo manager, Miami, at that point in time, I don't know how many flights we had, but it's probably one or two flights a week, initially, and that would not be a very high job.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No, it wasn't cargo manager, it was area manager.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Was it area manager?   Well then he was, gosh, you're talking '91, I think it's later than '91.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Do you remember Vernon Nadel?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja.   I remember the name.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Does it not strike you, because it has struck many people, in the airline and outside the airline, as a rather spectacular rise in fame and fortune?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I can't comment.   I would have to look at the gentleman's record, okay, where he had been, what his background was.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: All right?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, let me ask you another question, if a serious incident occurred aboard a South African Airways plane on a foreign airfield... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...is it likely that you would get to hear of it?   Let's assume a nuclear cargo fell out of it on Miami Airport, would you get to hear of that?