Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR DREYER: But I do not understand what you are saying to me, when were these criminal procedures and when were you in prison, and why is it the first time I heard about this?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Japie was with us when we waited for the trial.

MR DREYER: You're the first applicant who came and said that Japie told you what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not correct.

MR DREYER: I will retract that statement, Mr Chairman.   If you say that, let's get the chronological order correct here, when did Japie Oelofse told you what you should say during the trial?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: While we were waiting for the trial to start.

MR DREYER: Now why would he tell you on one side, now let's make this fair towards you, because otherwise maybe it's said that I'm not making a correct statement towards you, I do not want to mislead you, are you telling me that Japie Oelofse told you what to say during the criminal procedures which was not true?

CHAIRPERSON: You know, he'll sit here the whole afternoon telling us what that person said.   You've got to be specific... (intervention).

MR DREYER: I take note, Mr Chairman, I will rephrase it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...because that question knows of no limits.

MR DREYER: I take note, Mr Chairman, I'll limit that.   Let's put it - and this question was also asked to the other applicants, specifically to Kloppers, because Kloppers gave the same reasoning, he said that he tried to protect Oelofse, and it was pointed out to him that in his evidence during the criminal procedures, in any ways he involved Oelofse and other people, so if Oelofse told you to go and say certain things in order to protect him, then it would seem that it did not happen, because eventually he was incriminated during the proceedings, and I do not understand what you are saying to me?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Our case was separate from theirs, I did not give evidence, so I could not incriminate him.

MR DREYER: I accept that, let's return to what I've said, you said you heard specific things, all that I'd like to know is, the day when you were at the roadhouse, at the road cafe, before you reached the roadblock and the two shotguns were shown to you and you said you do not know how to work it, in that evening did you know, with your own knowledge, that those guns come from Japie Oelofse?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, it was, someone said that it comes from him.

MR DREYER: But it does not say that in your statement or application.   Let me ask you another question, you gave evidence, and you heard about the ear, or you saw that there was an ear that was cut off, what do you know about the ear, what do you know about the discussion concerning the ear?   Were you not present when it was said that the ear will be given to Oelofse the next day?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I believe that if you were in my position, after what happened, you will also not hear every single thing that happened.

MR DREYER: I accept that you cannot remember it, and I understand it and I realise it was a traumatic experience, all that I'd like to know is, when the ear, or the topic around the ear came up in the car, and it was held in a plastic bag, what was said there then that you can remember concerning the ear?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I cannot remember.

MR DREYER: You do not know who cut the ear off?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I heard at one stage it was Deon Martins.

MR DREYER: You heard it, you do not know?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct, yes.

MR DREYER: And when it was done and you heard about it, did you not know why it was done?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That's correct, yes.

MR DREYER: Let me come back to my original question that I asked to all the other applicants under evidence they gave, you reacted on a command which you believed came from the general's staff, and that was conveyed to you by Kloppers?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, I believed that that was an instruction that come from the generals in staff via Commandant Kloppers.

MR DREYER: And you believed, as a supporter of the AWB, and in the rank order of the organisation, and it was within your conviction, that you will execute that order?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct, yes.

MR DREYER: But now that if it seems that there was no such an order, what then?   In other words, if there were no other order higher up in the ranks, what now, what then?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Then Commandant Kloppers will have to answer that question.

MR DREYER: Well we have dealt with that.   Let me ask you questions about the festivities around the Voortrekker Monument.   Were you there?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR DREYER: Were you in the area or where you lived, although you did not attend the proceedings... (intervention).

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct, yes.

MR DREYER: ...did you also in that evening understood that tonight, the 12th or 13th of December, that evening or morning, the revolution will start, did you understand it that way?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, I did.

MR DREYER: You go out with this group, there's a specific incident, did you think that it was an isolated incident, or did you think that this is part of a full-scale, country-wide, revolution?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I thought that it was a full-scale revolution.

MR DREYER: When you, it was the 16th or the 20th of December, realised, I'm not talking about explosions, I'm talking about the evening when this incident occurred, when a week later you realised that that evening there was seemingly only this one incident, as far as I understand this is what happened, did you not start to doubt how it is possible that this is the only incident that occurred on a national level, didn't it bother you?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes it did.

MR DREYER: Now sir, in your own words you said it did, may I ask you why did it bother you?   Didn't you start to doubt if there was such an order?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, for us it was, or we were told afterwards the people did not work and that was that.

MR DREYER: Okay, let us get to that statement, because that was mentioned earlier on. Evidence was given that Eugene Terreblanche at one stage in a visit said to you while you were detained that if everybody did what was expected of them that evening, the revolution would have succeeded, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR DREYER: Now I'd like to ask you, at one stage amounts or numbers were mentioned of how many then commando members, or active members, there were in the AWB at that stage?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I had no input in the logistics, I cannot remember the amounts, but I know there were a lot.

MR DREYER: I think Mr Kloppers gave evidence regarding this   Now I come back to my question, did you believe that the AWB, as an organisation, existed countrywide?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: In certain areas it was stronger, yes.

MR DREYER: I come back again to my question, did it truly not bother you that you were the only person, or only group of nine people out of the total number of AWB members, who were obedient to the top structure of the AWB in that "today the revolution starts", didn't it bother you, how is it possible within a rank order in an organisation like the AWB?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: You've asked that question and I said yes, it did bother me.

MR DREYER: You thus say that notwithstanding that you did not doubt that in the higher ranks such an order existed?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I received my instructions from Commandant Kloppers and where he got his instructions, he will have to say, I'm not going to say what he - I have to report back to him.