Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : Before I go further about her, let me understand this would she be, as far as you recall, would she be one of the people who would throw more light on the question of collaboration with the police?

ANSWER: Yes, her husband was actually murdered by the vigilantes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry could you please repeat your last answer?

ANSWER: I was saying Mrs Lomandla, her husband was murdered by the vigilantes, she was just an ordinary person.

<UNKNOWN>: : I don't expect to exhaust all the names that, the names of the people from whom you took statements who could give such information, but I would like you if you can to furnish a few more names because this issue of collaboration with the police has emerged many times, not only in the township, but in many townships.   Just furnish more names please if you can?

ANSWER: There was a youngster by the name of Nexon (indistinct), unfortunately he is late(?) now.

<UNKNOWN>: : So he's out now he can't help us.

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Let's get on to someone else.

JUDGE WILSON: : Can I interrupt for a moment?   Were these
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statements taken by Lawyers for Human Rights or were they taken by you?

ANSWER: Yes they were taken by the Lawyers for Human Rights and the independent board of enquiry.

<UNKNOWN>: : Would they have copies of all the statements they took?

ANSWER: The people I'm sure that are still having the copies, I remember so far the researchers from the independent board of enquiry.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where are they?

ANSWER: The statement?

<UNKNOWN>: : No, where are these people?

ANSWER: They are in Jo'burg.

<UNKNOWN>: : You would have their address for further contact to them?

ANSWER: (No audible reply).

<UNKNOWN>: : We will leave that aspect there.   To a question asked you said that there were no instructions from any structure as far as you know that specific people be killed?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did the killing of the deceased surprise you, did it come as a surprise?

ANSWER: Given the situation then it was no surprise.

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry I will have to ask you this just to tidy up this aspect.   You say given the situation, just contextualise your answer I don't want to put words into your mouth I would like you yourself to contextualise your answer.   I have a good picture in my mind what situation you are referring to but I'll be a lot happier if you did that yourself.

ANSWER: I would maybe go to the extent of saying the
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situation that existed then was that of war because of the pitched battles that  was fought.

<UNKNOWN>: : Between?

ANSWER: The vigilantes and the political activists, mainly the youth.

<UNKNOWN>: : What was at stake?

ANSWER: I think what was at stake was a free political activity.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it there?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why not?

ANSWER: Just because of the harassment of the political activists by the vigilantes with the police.

<UNKNOWN>: : While on that aspect, one of the applicants made reference to interference by vigilantes at so-called political funerals, that is at the vigils held in respect of some of the comrades and I can't remember something else, maybe I will remember it but what is your comment on the aspect that I have made?

ANSWER: That is a correct statement.

<UNKNOWN>: : In what other way did they inhibit political activity, that is the vigilantes?

ANSWER: I think in the main those already mentioned, interference with political gatherings, funerals and the night vigils in the main.

<UNKNOWN>: : To your knowledge did at any time some of the, especially, well did some of the political activists have to run away from Kusong?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why, what was the cause?

ANSWER: They were in fear of their lives because we
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actually advised them to get out of the area for their own safety.

<UNKNOWN>: : Eventually peace prevailed or relative peace prevailed in Kusong, at some time or another, am I right?

ANSWER: Hmm.

<UNKNOWN>: : After what events did peace, relative peace prevail?

ANSWER: It was after a series of peace talks that were held, mostly by the local leadership, trying to bring the two warring factions together.

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry who initiated these peace talks, I missed that one?

ANSWER: The executive committee and the other leaders in the area from the other structures.

<UNKNOWN>: : The executive committee of what?

ANSWER: The ANC executive.

JUDGE WILSON: : Who were the two warring factions?

ANSWER: It was the Youth League together with the vigilantes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know when the deceased was killed?

ANSWER: It was late in December 1990.

<UNKNOWN>: : When was it when these talks were held, was it before his death or after his death?

ANSWER: It was just before and they continued even after that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were initial attempts successful?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : That is why obviously they continued?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was the deceased ever involved in these peace talks because you say that they started just before his
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death?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he present at any of these peace talks?

ANSWER: No he wasn't.

<UNKNOWN>: : From what you are saying I assume that, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that there were representatives from the vigilante group?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Under which he fell?

ANSWER: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: : The deceased David was a young thug of 18 wasn't he?

ANSWER: He was?

<UNKNOWN>: : 18 when he died?

ANSWER: I'm not sure about his age.

<UNKNOWN>: : About that, he was a youngster.

ANSWER: He was a youngster yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : One matter I'd like to clear up with you is the evidence that Mr Johnson Ngcube has given that he went and got the gun from the ANC executive committee.   You say that never happened?

ANSWER: Not in my presence.

<UNKNOWN>: : You see, he went on to say
"...the gun was given to me by the whole executive committee because we had discussed the issue of guns before".
Are you aware of that?

ANSWER: I was not aware of that.

<UNKNOWN>: : He told us that he got the gun from the Gauteng branch of the ANC of which you were the chairman.   You say you had no guns in your committee?
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ANSWER: /...
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ANSWER: And I was not even the chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: : But you had no guns your committee?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : So that is untrue.   A final factor I'd like to mention to you which may have contributed to the peace that came, was that the ANC itself on August 6 formally committed itself to the cessation of armed hostilities didn't it?

ANSWER: Which year is that?

<UNKNOWN>: : 1990.

ANSWER: I am not aware of that exact date.

<UNKNOWN>: : Well I am quoting from the submissions made by the African National Congress to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, paragraph 6293 where they say
"On August 6 1990 the ANC formally committed itself to a cessation of armed hostilities."

ANSWER: Where in the country or in Kusong?

<UNKNOWN>: : In the country, the dealing with the problems they then had with vigilantism and the ANC was firmly committed to try to bring about peace in the land, wasn't it?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : How many of your youth joined this, or defected from the ANC youth and started terrorising the community?

ANSWER: It was in fact a very, very small group of not more than 20.

<UNKNOWN>: : This was in 1989?

ANSWER: Yes, late 89.

<UNKNOWN>: : Had there been trouble in that area before?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon?

<UNKNOWN>: : Had there been trouble in the area before,
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violence, or was this the beginning of it?

ANSWER: That was the beginning.

<UNKNOWN>: : Because again we have had evidence from Ngcube that he left home in 1988, now that must have been some personal reason for him would it, there wasn't general trouble in the area in that year?