Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MARY BURTON: Yes, before that you were in Guguletu and then in Brown's Farm, is that right?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MARY BURTON: And really part of all of that was because families were trying to get the right to live together in Cape Town where the breadwinners were working?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MARY BURTON: So you remember the days when there was almost nothing in Crossroads except sand and just one or two new shacks?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I still remember.

MARY BURTON: And it was the start of a very long struggle against the pass laws?

MR NDIMA: Yes, that is where the fight started to fight for the pass laws to be demolished.

MARY BURTON: And in fact the pass laws were repealed in 1986, the very time that we are talking about?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MARY BURTON: It was a victory in a way against the pass laws?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MARY BURTON: But it was also a terrible, terrible price to pay to bring about a change in that policy?

MR NDIMA: Very much, yes.

MARY BURTON: And you would remember the time when the leaders in Crossroads were a united committee, I remember myself when they used to meet in that one shack always, the committee together?

MR NDIMA: They were not meeting, except I am also there.  The only people who were responsible for the meetings, was myself.

MARY BURTON: That is right, I remember that.  How did it happen then that divisions came about and this terrible war as you say, unofficially declared war happened?

MS NDIMA: The only reason that caused this conflict is because of what I've said already.  Memani was the only person who started this.
 I said to Memani as you are Ngxobongwana's vice, please when Ngxobongwana is not in a meeting, take the minutes and our decisions to Ngxobongwana.
 And you show him what we have decided and he didn't agree.  If he didn't agree please come back to us and we will correct that as he was the leader, he has the right to see our failures.
 Now, Memani didn't do as we told him.  He just do it once or twice and on the third meeting, he didn't take the report to Ngxobongwana.  When I asked him why didn't you take the report to Ngxobongwana, did you take it, he said no, Tom said there is no Chairman who is bigger than the other.
 I said to him, Memani you are not the Chairman.  You are Ngxobongwana's vice, you are Ngxobongwana's secretary, you can't listen to Tom.  I also told him that Tom, I didn't know Tom when I elected Tom from the general to be a committee member, he will cause this conflict and differentiation.
 I was just posting this because I was not meeting with Tom.  I knew that he will - these words will reach him because I thought he was a brave man, that's why I elected him as one of our committee members.
 One day, when Memani left, they went to meet at Tom's place, they didn't come to our place, they went to Tom's.  And now Tom decided to go and build a place in Sizamile where Memani was.  One day Memani phoned and said I find him phoning, I asked him who is he speaking to and he said it is Tom, he is at work.
 And Tom asked on the other side, who are you talking to Memani and he said it is Chawe.  He said when I am finished with you, please give the phone to him and when I am about to leave, Memani said I must not, because Tom would like to speak to me, and I waited.
 And he said I thank you Mr Ndima, for saying that you didn't know that you were electing a stupid person who will disorganise the committee.  Yes, it is true that you elected me as one of the committee members, but I thank you for seeing me as a stupid person.
 I told Tom that I was posting it, I knew Memani would tell you.  I wanted you to know, I wanted it to reach your ears.  And he said okay, Mr Ndima we must see each other and talk to each other and state the reasons why I left your place.
 I said okay and we were finished then.  So that is how this conflict came about, that is how they left Ngxobongwana.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Ndima.  Then you told us that you believed that Mr Bezuidenhout was the person who gave guns to Memani and that that was an additional ...

MR NDIMA: Yes, they said so, it seemed.

MARY BURTON: Now, you also told us that you had, your group had guns which you had hidden.  And how did you manage to obtain those guns?

MR NDIMA: They were ours that's why we hid them.  We bought them, that's why we hid them from the people who were selling them.   Because when you are a man, you must have something to defend yourself.

MARY BURTON: And that was people who were selling the illegally, I suppose because you said you couldn't get a licence?

MR NDIMA: No, these guns were illegal.  If you buy something legally, you must go and buy it from the shop.

MARY BURTON: And just one more question if I may, please Chairperson.  You told us about the time that you had told the authorities that you couldn't find Mr Ngxobongwana, that he was missing.
 Just explain to us again why it is that you had to tell them that, when you knew that it wasn't so?

MR NDIMA: I wanted Ngxobongwana to leave.  I wanted them to think that we were looking for Ngxobongwana, while we were about to attack Memani.
 I wanted to think that we were still looking for Ngxobongwana.  We wanted to attack Memani as if we were on our way looking for Ngxobongwana.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Madam Chairperson, I do greet you Mr Ndima.  You can take off your earphones.

MR NDIMA: I can hear clearly from them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Mr Ndima, can you please take from Mr Ngxobongwana's issue, you said when there is about war to start, you ask Ngxobongwana to leave because the leader must not be around the war.
 Can you please tell us about Ngxobongwana, does he have an idea of what was going to happen?

MR NDIMA: Yes, he knew.  I was not just letting him go before he knew what was going to happen.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now that he was leaving, you asked him to leave, he knew that there was going to be a war?

MR NDIMA: Yes, it was our agreement.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay.  We've heard that from other witnesses that there was a court, a big shack court, we heard that from yesterday from Ruth Dibisela and we also heard from Mr Veneni.  And there was also Mrs Nsokoso who was here who agreed with that and we also heard about one of the policemen who was here yesterday, he was a detective, saying that there was a court.
 Do you know anything about this?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I know about it.  It was for those harsh people who were causing violence, we used to take them there so that we can take them to the police station the following day.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Does this prison that you mention, was it an allocation with the policemen?

MR NDIMA: Yes, we agreed with the policemen that when someone has disobeyed or broke the law, we must arrest them and take to them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Oh, which means that yours was a halfway station so that they can go there and then to the police station?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now can you tell us why would sometimes people be killed when they were taken to this prison of yours?

MR NDIMA: Well, the one that we arrested were never killed, the people who were to be killed who were also saved by me, they were six people.  It was at a time we were fighting the comrades, we were "witdoeke" and they came to me, they didn't know poor souls, and they found some men surrounding me, the men who were guarding me and they said they wanted Chawe ...

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you because we have got a time constraint here, I just want you to explain what appears to be the reason for killing people there?

MR NDIMA: No, no, I won't know.  Because I was never brought anywhere where I was likely to be injured.