Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: We were at Pumulung in Masimung Street(?). We were sitting there, five of us in number.  Whilst sitting,we were at a girl's place called Mansu(?).  We were right insidethe yard.  Now the house is very close to Jack Nose Tavern.  AndI left.  The other comrades, I went to the Tavern to buy a packetof cigarettes and a packet of Simba chips.  Now when I left thatplace I got inside and I met my girlfriend inside this Tavernand I talked to her for a few minutes and I went straight to thecounter.  When I came back she was now at the place called Sebengand she was now in this place called Sebeng.  It is inside JackNose Tavern.  And I went straight to her.  And I was asking herwhat does she want there and she said I am here to entertain myselfand I said to her I've been looking for you, where were you andshe said to me no, I've been ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can we avoid some of this detail or is it reallynecessary for your case?

UNKNOWN: No, I concur, Mr Chairman.  Listen, I wantyou to do this.  When I ask you to explain everything, and ifI want that question I'd ask you, but I want you to remember thatthere is a person who has been killed here and his name is Boetie. Now tell us the moment when you decided to kill him.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: While I was in Sebeng Boetie camein and he grabbed me by my clothes and I asked him what are youdoing?  Before he could give me an answer Comrade Pasa Kamponde(?)came and he said what's the problem.  There was no answer still. He took his gun out and then myself and Pasa ran away, we wentoutside the house.  And then when we got outside some of the comradeswere there, Mahawu and Robert Thule and we told them what happened. We told them that Boetie is inside, we don't know what is happeningwith him.  He is taking out his gun and we don't have any clashwith him and we left.  We went next door to a house belongingto a member of the ANC Women League.  The deceased appeared againwith a gun.  We were next to Mrs (indistinct) house and then heleft.  He got into another house opposite.  It was a house belongingto a police called (indistinct) Mutsi.  He was still holding hisgun in his hand and we went to him because we realised that hecouldn't see us and at the corner we grabbed him and we stabbedhim with our knives.  He ran to the next street, we followed him,we stabbed him and he fell the second house.  That's where theincident took place.

UNKNOWN: We must understand that this incident - whyactually did you decide to stab him?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It is like this, Sir, if you wantto know.  The police, their actions against the people and ourselves,they have given us that idea.  The police have been with thisgang called 3 million gang, because some of the police were workingtogether with these 3 million gang people, but they were doingit in disguise.  And we only knew one or two of the police, butin most cases we would find out that most of the policemen weresupporting this gang.  Because the community of Maokeng triedto report the gang to the police but nothing would be done, andthat is why we decided that the SDUs must be formed, because thepolice have failed in their duty.  The 3 million gang was killingpeople and it was robbing in town.

UNKNOWN: Was the deceased, Boetie, a member of the3 million gang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, he was a member of the PoliceForce.

UNKNOWN: I am asking was he a member of the 3 milliongang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I don't have any knowledge ofthat.  No. I am not certain.

UNKNOWN: After you were arrested, were you convicted?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You must realise that Boetie also had a family. This you did unto Boetie, how do you feel about it?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I am very regretful of what we did,really I am regretful about what I did.

UNKNOWN: Are there any way words that you can directto his parents or his relatives?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I will ask you again.  Are there any wordsthat you can direct to his family?  You must understand that youhave taken someone's life away.   Someone who was loved by hisfamily.  Isn't it?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, it is like that.

UNKNOWN: Therefore, are there any words that you candirect to his parents, what can you say to them?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I would like to say to them, his parentsand the whole family, please forgive me for what I did.  It wasn'tmy intention to do that.

UNKNOWN: When you say it wasn't with your intention,what do you mean, because you took a knife to stab someone.  Weren'tyou aiming to kill him?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, it was because I was angry.  Iwas very emotional at that time because of the situation thatreigned at that time.

UNKNOWN: When you say you were angry, do you mean youwere very aggravated?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What were you trying to say?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I was saying I was very emotionalat that time and that is what caused me to do that.  We had lostfaith in the police by that time, that is why I took upon myselfto do that.

UNKNOWN: Was Boetie a member of any political organisationthat was against the African National Congress?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, Sir, I won't say he was a memberof any political party.  But because of the knowledge that thepast regime was oppressive and the people who worked for thatregime were the people who were against the ANC, especially thepolice.  They were really against the ANC at that time.

UNKNOWN: You said Boetie had a gun on him, what happenedto that gun?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I don't know what happened to thatgun, but I saw it on the following day on another person.

UNKNOWN: Didn't you on your own take that weapon?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: When you attacked him, did you have any objectiveor intention to take his gun away from him?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, our intention was just to killhim because ....

UNKNOWN: Will you please raise your voice.  I can'thear you clearly.  What was your intention?  Was it to take hislife away?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: When this happened we had lost ourfaith in the police.

UNKNOWN: Is there anything that you want this Committeeto know which I didn't ask you about which you think maybe isnecessary for the Committee to know?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I can't understand you.  Will youplease repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: Is there anything that you want the Committeeto know about regarding the testimony you are giving us or maybeanything I didn't ask you about?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, there is.

UNKNOWN: Are you finished with your testimony, or isthere anything that you want to say to the Committee?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: If it is necessary yes, they can askme questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We are agreed that the deceased, Boetie, wasnot a member of the SAP.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I couldn't hear you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We are agreed that the deceased was not a memberof the South African Police.   I will repeat the question.  Weare agreed that the deceased was not a member of the South AfricanPolice.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I knew him as a policeman.

JUDGE WILSON: When you say "we" do you meanyourself and counsel for the applicant?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Myself and him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will repeat the question.  Do you have anyproblem in hearing the interpretation to you there?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if you will allow me.  There isa little misunderstanding here.  The applicant did actually respondin Sotho and said I knew him to be a policeman.  That's what hesaid in Sotho.  And how that is going to be interpreted to theinterviewee I wouldn't know.  But we did get an answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just record what he has given as hisanswer.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, perhaps he spoke too soft thatI couldn't hear him, because I am listening directly from him. I am not using the overheads.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right.