Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  I had really finished the question, perhaps if the witness could answer it, or try to answer it, and if I need to explain, I can try that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I was not calling upon you to explain, I just wanted to be fair to the witness.  I just wanted to be fair to you that we may have in the Commission information that we have heard under oath which if you were aware we have, might possibly influence you to give a response which you would not give were you not aware of that information.
 To be specific there is evidence that we have gathered on the operations of the CCB and which, yes, we have that sort of evidence.

MR LAX: Mr Chairman, would it not be fair to give him some indication of what the evidence might be to ask him his reaction to that or to reply to it?

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, maybe I can explain my question because it is not based on specific instances.  I was wanting to understand the import of the evidence that General Joubert has given thus far and clarity it so that I understand exactly what he is saying.
 And that is that from what you've said, Special Forces operatives, including CCB operatives were not deployed clandestinely, covertly inside the country unless they were deployed in support of the SAP.  That is your evidence, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, that is correct, but I said that was in my time.

MR GOOSEN: All this is up to 1988.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, this is in my time.

MR GOOSEN: Truly I am not trying to suggest that you would have any knowledge of what would have happened post 1988.
 And you've indicated that Special Forces operatives, including CCB operatives, were not deployed internally in the country clandestinely, I think I've just said that, unless they were deployed with the SAP.  No deployments of that nature post the introduction of this procedure, the beginning of 1987, were to your knowledge approved?

LEGAL COUNSEL: Mr Chairman, with the greatest of respect, I think my client has answered that question now a couple of times.

MR GOOSEN: But it would follow then that the use of CCB operatives, actions by CCB operatives, where they were either not supporting the SAP or were deployed, they were not authorised in that deployment, post 1987, beginning of 1987 through to 1988, that you have knowledge of?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Not that I know of.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, that is as far as I wish to take it at this point, I have no further matters that I want to raise.

MR LAX: Just for the record General Joubert, can you confirm that when you use the word eliminate, you in fact mean kill, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I think we should be very careful when we look at the word eliminate.  I can eliminate a person by arresting him.  I can neutralise him by arresting him.  Each case must be dealt with on its own merits.
 If you can eliminate a person by not killing him, then you've eliminated him by means of arresting him or something like that.  But there may be cases where eliminate or elimination in fact meant killing.  I don't think we must generally accept that the term eliminate means kill.

MR LAX: No, I accept that, but in the context of your being OC, Commanding Officer of Special Forces, from 1986 to 19- whenever it was when you left, were there cases in which Special Forces cooperated with the police in eliminating people, ie killing people in accordance with the plan that you testified to before lunch?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR LAX: And are those the matters in respect of which you have applied for amnesty?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR LAX: And could you tell us how many people Special Forces acting together with the South African Police, eliminated and when I say eliminated, I mean killed?  I am not going to go into the specific details but I just want you to give us a figure of how many people were in fact killed by Special Forces cooperating with the SAP that you are aware of?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, as it stands in my application quite clearly, I haven't looked at it but it must be around 12 persons.

MR LAX: And I think as you have said in your amnesty application, these people were not necessarily only ANC people, they were people who supported the ANC or assisted or followers or hangers on and they could, and they did in fact include ordinary civilians, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct yes, but not ordinary civilians.  Civilians being involved in the system.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Goosen and thereafter ...

MR GOOSEN: General Joubert, the operatives who were involved in the operations which were carried out in accordance with your plan, how would those operatives have understood their mandate when informed that their function was to eliminate specified or identified targets?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, before any operation they would have been thoroughly instructed about what to do.

MR GOOSEN: And when you became aware of the fact that unconventional methods were to be employed, you understood and that involved the elimination of targets, you understood that that meant that people should be killed?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is, Mr Chairman, that is what I tried to explain.  If the circumstances was such that those were the best ways to eliminate a person, it would then have happened that he would have been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  I will be very quick.  General earlier, right in the beginning of your evidence, when we first canvassed the issues of these unconventional methods of these revolutionary methods, you said that everyone of importance realised that these methods had to be used at that stage, and in essence approved that.  Do you remember that, do you confirm that?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I think so.  When was this?

MR LAX: That was right in the beginning when we were canvassing those methods, you said everyone of importance accepted that that was what had to be done at that time. I think you say so in your amnesty application as well.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR LAX: Who was everyone of importance, who were those people?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, as I understand the words everyone of importance, was everyone involved in the security situation in this country.

MR LAX: Give us specifics because that is incredibly general.  If I was a troop on the ground, then I would have been involved in the security arrangement, I didn't know that.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, well as far as I am concerned, Mr Chairman, as far as I was concerned, it was the government of the day, the departments involved in the security or responsible for security such as the Defence Force, the Police and so on.  I think the State Security Council also had a certain say, that is what I meant by everyone of importance.

MR LAX: Would the Cabinet have known about that?  Did you understand them to know about it, let's put it that way that is what your evidence is?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Well, it would have been very strange, very strange if they wouldn't have known about it.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question.  Did you in your time as Head of Special Forces, know a person with a name Johan Frederick Verster otherwise known as Rick Verster?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I never knew him in Special Forces.  I knew him in the Directorate of Counter-Intelligence, Military Intelligence, but in Special Forces, I never met him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in any event have any dealings with him in terms of which you could have given instructions to perform certain tasks?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: No.