Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: At one stage, after the shooting..(intervention).

MR WILLS: No, I'm talking about before the shooting.  I realise what happened, what he did after.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Before the stage, yes Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, when we got there initially, he took me from the vehicle to this place, 20 or 30 metres or so, then came back and then he stayed there.

MR WILLS: And you say you made them sit down?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I did.

MR WILLS: And how did you do that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well after relieving, we all relieved ourselves, then after that I suggested, "Let's sit here, we're not ready to move yet", then even I sat down.  All of us sat down and then the two gentlemen were shot on either side of me.

MR WILLS: Yes, but the evidence has been to the effect that you made them sit down.  Did you ask them to sit down and they co-operated, or did you push them down?  Sorry, I know that I was concentrating on something else when you gave this evidence in chief.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, we had discussed with Botha that I would attempt to get them to sit down.

MR WILLS: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Surreptitiously and I said "listen, we are not ready to leave, let us sit down" and I placed my hands on their shoulders.

MR WILLS: Both of them at the same time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, and started to sit downwards and they sat down with me.  Then very, very shortly after that both shots went off, Sir.

MR WILLS: So even when you were making them sit down, surely then they would have at least gasped or indicated something, because they must have been terrified?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think that they were not aware that they were about to be shot.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Botha tell you that you should try to get them to sit down?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he had made this plan up at the house, at the house in Verulam.

MR WILLS: We've heard of how you disposed of their bodies, I won't dwell on that.  You had given evidence, or there has been evidence that you operated in a number or you had a number of farms at your disposal.  You had at least two that I know of, the one in Camperdown and the one in Verulam.  Is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to be strange that you go to the trouble of taking them all the way to the Tugela River where you could have just done the same job at the farm.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman and even to me that decision was strange when it came.

MR WILLS: Yes, it's strange to me as well.

MR LAX: You see, particularly in the light of the fact that you already killed somebody on that farm before and buried them there.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I had no idea where this plan of the river had come from, it was totally out of normal context.

MR WILLS: Prior to your application, did you become aware that there was a unit investigating this killing that was under the auspices, I think it was known as the d'Oliveira Unit, under the auspices of the then Transvaal Attorney-General?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: This was prior to your amnesty application?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not too sure if it was prior but I knew Mr d'Oliveira was working on this one.

MR WILLS: Now I've spoken to the Investigating Officer, Mr Holmes and I was hoping at this stage to have the statements and I've just spoken to him.  Did you know that Capt Holmes was the Investigating Officer?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I didn't know that.

MR WILLS: Well, I've spoken to him telephonically and unfortunately I'm not in a position to verify this with documents, but at this stage he says to me that he has information that Ndaba and Shabalala were not killed at the same time.  you deny that obviously?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I deny that emphatically.

MR WILLS: He also indicated to me that he had information and I don't know what the state of this information is, but that Ndaba was taken out in a Natal Parks Board boat and his body was blown up some miles off the coast.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, that's incorrect, Sir.  That's nonsense.

CHAIRPERSON: This evidence appears to be vital to the whole application.  If it is true, if there is such evidence, it is quite clear there has not been full disclosure.  What arrangements are being made to have this evidence made available to the hearing?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I've asked Capt Holmes to give me that evidence.  I spoke to him on Friday last week.  he indicated to me that he would have this evidence available by Monday afternoon.  Unfortunately when I got hole of him, I only traced his number down on Friday, when I got hold of him on Friday afternoon he was in some operation in the Eastern Cape and he was expected back to his offices on the Saturday.  He indicated to me that on the Saturday he would look through the information and give it to me.  I spoke to him on the Monday morning, he indicated that he'd been delayed in the Eastern Cape but that he would endeavour to give the information to me.  I'm still expecting it Mr Chairperson.  I have asked the Truth Commission, in the form of Ms Deborah Quinn, to assist in this process but we haven't been successful at this stage and that's, I don't have any power to get hold of this information other than that.  I am expecting affidavits to come through.  Mr Chairperson I didn't, I raised this information at this stage obviously because it would be fair for me to put this to this witness.  The information I've just revealed now was given to me as a result of a telephone conversation with Capt Holmes on Monday morning after the cross-examination of Mr Botha had been completed, but I would certainly appreciate assistance from the Committee as far as getting Holmes here.  It would assist me greatly.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that if there is such evidence, it should be made available, it should be put to the witness.  Is it possible to continue his cross-examination on other aspects and to continue, we will do all we can to make sure such evidence, if it is evidence, is made available and can be put before the Committee.  Obviously it's something which should be put to Botha certainly if it's going to say that his version is completely false and we have to put to the other applicant.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, we agree with you.  The - Please allow me say that it is startling that after two years down the line when everybody knew in the TRC of these applications, that we should be faced with this 90% through our, or 80% through our applications.  It is just really unacceptable, but Mr Chairman, as usual we will not complain, we will fall in, because clearly we want to know what the truth is and we agree with you, but can my learned friend just tell us everything that Holmes told him?  We now know of two things.  Is there more, may we ask, Mr Chairman?   And what's - surely my learned friend must have asked him, "But why do you say this, what is this based on?  Is there somebody that can tell us?"  I mean surely there must be more information?

MR WILLS: The only, I mean I don't know if I'm obliged to answer questions about consultations I have with witnesses but be that as it may, the only information that I have got related to that, but related to the two facts that I've given and to my recollection of the telephone conversation I had with Holmes, the impression I gained was this was through his investigations and I assumed it was through information contained in the dockets.  I did request that statements be faxed to me to the number at, in the media room.

MR VISSER: May we assume that this is then all that he said?  These two points.

MR WILLS: At that stage, yes.