Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, obviously one has to take into account the realities of the situation.  If the Committee comes to a decision that it cannot grant amnesty on the basis of this, and the situation arises which I foresee now, obviously one will then have to deal with a situation at that time, but Mr Chairman, I have to, on behalf on my clients, present the Committee with the question how to formulate a decision on this and to make a decision on this.

JUDGE WILSON: But this is something he says he doesn't say he's done. I'm not talking about the explosives, there he has a recollection, here there is no evidence at all, no information as to the killing. It might have been a blood-thirsty murder, we can't give amnesty.

ADV DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairman but he says there was a possibility, that was his evidence, and secondly Mr Chairman he also testified that, in respect of this and specifically in respect of the possibility that there was a murder, such a murder could not have been committed otherwise than with a political objective.  That is the evidence before the Committee.  And Mr Chairman I will address you in argument on this, and if the Committee, and I specifically want to answer His Lordship Mr Judge Wilson, if the Committee makes
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a decision that amnesty cannot be granted in a situation such as this, I have done my duty as far as humanly possible, and obviously if the bad scenario that I sketched arises later on, I will be able to deal with it legally, but if I don't deal with now it would not open any other possible legal avenues on behalf of my client's open later.

HASSAN MALL: Are there no further questions of this witness?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairman I have finished this application.   The next incident I want to deal with concerns W/O van Vuuren.

HASSAN MALL: Yes thank you.

JACQUES HECHTER: Thank you Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
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UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, before the witness is being led, the applicant is going to testify on the matter on page 44.  I want to remind the Chair and the Committee that there is an implicated person here, Eric Goosen, and that his counsel, George Alberts did approach the Committee in chambers in Pretoria.  I'm made to believe that a ruling was made that he need not be here, and he said if it comes to Cape Town he won't be here but he has no problem that the matter goes on.  He just wanted that to be on record, thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed?

ADV DE JAGER: He didn't furnish an affidavit?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Sir, he didn't.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Warrant Officer van Vuuren, your application starts on page 44 and you say that it was either '85 or '86, was that at the beginning of your counter-insurgence operation?

UNKNOWN: Yes that's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 45, can you start there and read the first paragraph to the Committee?

UNKNOWN: Sergeant Eric Goosen and I with Kalla Botha and another person whose name I can't remember, I suspect they were from Special Forces, we went to Mamelodi where we received information that arms were brought to a certain person on a certain night in Mamelodi.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can we just stop there.  The word the must be a, a person not the person.  This person in other words is not a person who acted with Special Forces?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The person at the end of this paragraph is CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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therefore a different person?

UNKNOWN: That's right.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please continue.

UNKNOWN: We picked up a black man who was probably a courier of the ANC.  We questioned him and during the questioning we beat him.  Thereafter we locked him in Sgt Goosen's garage and  we left him in the veld the next morning.  We did not get any information from him, he was seriously assaulted during the questioning.  Brigadier Cronje called us in after Kalla Botha reported to him and after Brigadier Cronje was called.  We explained it to Brigadier Cronje, he was worried that the person was dead.  He wasn't dead.  The Brigadier then reprimanded us, we were sent to his address and we ascertained that he was only injured.  He was still living.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In other words on page 46 you describe his injuries, the person was injured, his face was swollen, his lips and eyes were hurt and his nose was bleeding. Mr van Vuuren can you remember specifically this person, the information that you received, if I can take you back to page 45, the first paragraph, you say,
"Information was received that two terrorists with weapons would come to this person in Mamelodi".
Where did you get that information from, can you remember?

UNKNOWN: It was from Kalla Botha and his people, if I remember correctly.  They had an informant who was with us that evening, it was a Black woman, if I remember correctly.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Warrant Officer van Vuuren, what was the information the informant gave with regard to the information you wanted from this person?

UNKNOWN: The information was that this person had
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housed terrorists and that there had been weapons in the house.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In your mind, against whom did you think you were acting?

UNKNOWN: Against the ANC and against terrorists.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you go to the Political Motivation, page 47, General Motivation for Interrogation, can you verify this?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But more specifically on page 50 and 51?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: You discuss the order on page 52, can you just read that to us, 11(a).

UNKNOWN: That's correct.  The specific order was given by Loots, at that stage Eric Goosen was with the White section and they did not know the Black areas, as we from B Section did not know the White areas.

ADV DE JAGER: The instruction to which you refer from Brigadier Victor and Brigadier Cronje, was it the general instruction or was it, in this case, a specific instruction?

UNKNOWN: I will say that this from Brigadier Victor and Cronje, according to me was not really correct, I had a specific order from Loots.

HASSAN MALL: Was Brigadier Victor aware of the specific order that you say you had?

UNKNOWN: No.
(...indistinct)

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Victor, yes he should have been aware but I do not believe he knew of the specific order I received from Colonel Loots.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry who should have been specifically
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aware, Brigadier Cronje or Brigadier Victor?

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Victor and Brigadier Cronje would not have been aware of this specific order, it was Col Loots or then Capt Loots who gave me the specific order. I do not believe that Brigadier Victor or Cronje were on that day aware, or that night aware of what was going on

HASSAN MALL: Was the instruction by Col Loots given to you personally?

UNKNOWN: Yes it was to me personally.

HASSAN MALL: Can you recall precisely what his instructions were?

UNKNOWN: He said that there was a person with A Section who had information that a certain house in Mamelodi, there had been ANC terrorists, they came from Johannesburg and that I must assist them in the operation.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you make any effort to try and trace this person?

UNKNOWN: No I didn't?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why?

UNKNOWN: It was 10 years back, I would never be able to find the address again.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you try to contact your informer or the person who took you to the injured person?

UNKNOWN: No it was not my informant, it was Kalla Botha's informant, I did not even know the name of the informant.