Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MS THABETHE: Which comes to my next question.  Would you say your decision to eliminate Ndaba now, not Shabalala, was influenced by what Mr Steyn said, or your evidence would be that it was your decision, Mr Steyn had nothing to do with it, or these words from Mr Steyn had nothing to do with it?

H J P BOTHA: I think at this stage what would I do if I could not get his head read?  We have no option other but than to eliminate him but try your best to get his head right.  The final decision which I had taken was mine.

MS THABETHE: Did Mr Steyn have an influence on your final decision, that's my question?

H J P BOTHA: No.

MS THABETHE: When you decided to take Mr Ndaba and Shabalala where they were eventually going to be killed, would you regard Mr Ndaba's - would you say Mr Ndaba was under the impression that he's still working for you at that stage?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he was.

MS THABETHE: My question with regard to that is, by killing Mr Ndaba, weren't you killing one of your own?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he was one of our own.

MS THABETHE: why I'm asking this, I don't know whether it's for argument, it should be addressed by Mr Visser, or I should direct the question to you, but Mr Chair will give me direction on that, why I'm asking this it's because in terms of the Act, it states that the act for which amnesty is applied for should be an act done by one organisation against another organisation.  Now if you were killing your own person, that is a person who was working for you, how would you justify amnesty being granted for that?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I am not an expert with regard to the law and the Act which makes provision for this but what I understand is that nowhere there was a reference that it has to be two opposing parties, as far as I know it should be the conflict of the past.

MS THABETHE: Unfortunately Mr Botha, I don't have the Act in front of me, I would have read it out for you.

CHAIRPERSON: But you'll have time to argue.

MS THABETHE: Yes, on that point, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have one matter for re-examination.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, when Mr Wills cross-examined you yesterday he put questions to you with the point of reference that Mr Shabalala was a suspect and that you had consequently wanted information from him and that would indicate that you would have assaulted him.  What I want to ask of you, please explain to the Committee, after you had arrested Mr Shabalala, was there information which you thought that he could give to you, which you did not have from Mr Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, the role of Mbuso in contrast to Charles, was that Charles was the senior of the two within the structures in which they worked and consequently it was not necessary.  Everything I could obtain, I obtained from Charles which he voluntarily gave.

MR VISSER: So is the answer then...(intervention)

H J P BOTHA: No I did not, it was not necessary to get information from Shabalala.

MR VISSER: Did you give any instructions to du Preez or Wasserman or van der Westhuizen to question Mr Shabalala?

H J P BOTHA: No, there was not specific instructions with regard to questioning.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr chairman, that's the only issue I wanted to, arising from cross-examination, which I wanted to address.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Botha who looked after these two abducted persons while you were in Pretoria?

H J P BOTHA: Wasserman, du Preez or van der Westhuizen and there were also the 4 members from C20 present at the house.

MR LAX: And did all of them take turns in guarding these people or how did you lock them up there, what steps did you take?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, the lay out of the place was of such a place that there was one common place where there were two rooms and outside was normal burglar bars so you could not exit the rooms to outside.  They were detained in the rooms.  I think Shabalala was cuffed and as far as I know Ndaba was not.  There was always somebody present to guard them.

MR LAX: Now, there was an issue that arose from this morning's cross-examination which got me quite puzzled and that was your return from Pretoria.  At one stage under questioning by Mr Wills, you indicated that you returned on the 11th in the afternoon of the 11th.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson we were in Pretoria twice.  If there is any confusion with regard to the dates, but the first occasion, if I recall correctly, it was the 10th that we went to Pretoria and the following morning we spoke to Gen van der Merwe and the very same day we returned back to Durban.  The reason why I recall that is when we saw Gen Smit the first day, he arranged that Gen van der Merwe would see us the following morning and it was early, before the normal day's activities.

MR LAX: That's correct, and then you saw van der Merwe on the 11th and you returned back that day, the very same day.  That was your evidence.  Later on under cross-examination you said you then stayed behind for some briefing to the President.

H J P BOTHA: It was still the same day, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And then you said you only returned on the 12th.

H J P BOTHA: Then I must have confused myself, been confused about the dates.

MR LAX: That's what I wanted you just to explain to us because there is an obvious contradiction.  So you're just making a mistake?

H J P BOTHA: It's possible that I may be mistaken there Chairperson.  The first occasion we departed the day, we stayed the night and the following day we saw Gen van der Merwe.  the arrest of Nyanda was the 12th and the day afterwards we went back to Pretoria.

MR LAX: That was on the 13th?

H J P BOTHA: That's the 13th, correct.

MR LAX: Because the issue that Mr Wills was dealing with you about at that point, was why did you not have time to inform du Preez and others who were observing Nyanda, of the instructions you'd received from Gen van der Merwe.  Now, and that's where you said "well, I only returned on the 12th and there wasn't time, etc."  If in fact you returned on the 11th, then there would have been time to inform them, because they only arrested Nyanda on the 12th, so in the light of that could you review your explanation and maybe see why you didn't inform them earlier?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot explain exactly why, all that I know is that I did not convey the message to them before Nyanda was arrested and I want to differentiate between the instructions from van der Merwe is that it was not that you must not arrest anybody, it was that preferably do not arrest anybody, interpreted by me, until the week of the 16th.  There were certain procedures which had to be followed or that he wanted to follow with regard to information with regard to information from other departments.  Us, we were not going to arrest anybody because the whole process was that we had to gather more information and in the meantime I had the problem of, I had Shabalala with me and Ndaba, the informer, which we had to place back was also with us.  Many things happened and in my own mind I cannot recall whether I told them or I did not tell them, but before du Preez arrested Nyanda, I think I did not tell them.