Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Patrick, we, when I addressed this Committee before, I said I intend not making you repeat what your co-applicant had already said.  Only in a nutshell, we know
2A.	already/...
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already that you went hunting for Nzimeni but let's come to the time that you found Nzimeni.  When Nzimeni was being 
stabbed with pangas, stoned, you were present there, isn't it?   What role did you play there?  What did you do?

JUDGE WILSON: I don't want to interfere, but as I understand it, there was an earlier crime that he was convicted of, that's the attempted murder and he's asking for amnesty for that too, so I don't think you should cut him that short.

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson I'm leading the applicant on the question of murder.  He will be led as well on the attempted murder charge.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think what my brother is saying to you is that if my impression is correct, the attempted murder was committed first and then the murder later, and to take the witness and make him jump around like that, he's going to get confused.  So let him narrate the events in sequence, in the order in which they came. If I'm correct in thinking that the attempted murder was committed first, let him start with first things first to avoid him being confused.

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson I will accept the directions from the Committee.  Patrick, then I will ask you then to revert back to the taxi rank to the instance where Charles Mhlambiso was found. Then what happened?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: The first person to saw Charles was Ranka Solomon.  He pointed at Charles Mhlambiso, and then we ranked what's his direction. I was the first person to reach where he was and I grabbed him.  I said Charles, tell me what are you guys doing?  And he said to me, what are you talking about, my brother? And other comrades came and on their arrival I was still holding him with my hands and they 2A.	started/...
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started beating him. And this thing troubled me because  matters seemed to be getting very difficult, and I pushed him into furrow, trying to save him and the comrades followed, they got into the furrow and they assaulted him in that furrow. And Pina Tlandsizwe Tlanjwa came out and then we helped each other, we stopped the comrades not to carry on with this act. Charles was already poured with petrol and we asked Solomon and Mututuzeli Luma to take Charles Mhlambiso to the police station.  They took him, they left with him, they took him to the police station.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you do anything to Charles other than pushing him?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Besides grabbing him and pushing him into the furrow, there's nothing else I did.

JUDGE WILSON: And that was done to save him did you say?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes.
(Tape 2A ends).
(Start tape 2B day 3)

<UNKNOWN>: ....then pushed him into the furrow.  When you grabbed him the first time that was not to save him. To save him was when you pushed him into the furrow. Am I right?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Can I please repeat that?

<UNKNOWN>: You were the first person to grab him, at that stage there was no question of saving him, you were just grabbing him.  And then he got assaulted and then you pushed him into the furrow.  By pushing him into the furrow, you were trying to save him?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Let's move to the question of murder.  How did then you come to Nzimeni and what happened to him, what role did you play there?
2B.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: /...
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PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I didn't do anything even in his killing.

<UNKNOWN>: What is there that you saw happening to Nzimeni in your presence?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Would I start just at the back so that I can bring facts. After Charlie was taken to the police station we were now left with another problem which is Nzimeni. Tqhina got into Nzimeni's yard and I was following him and the mother to the deceased asked where is Nzimeni. And then the answer was Nzimeni fled. Tqhina went out of the house with the mother of the deceased, they were using the front entrance, and I was following them.  As I was still waiting the mother to the deceased came back, I don't know where she was coming from but she was using the other street, Dingaan Street, and she got into the yard and she used the back entrance and then I followed her.  Every time, or all the time I was under the impression that Nzimeni was not present, he fled.  My home was very close to Nzimeni's home.  She was moving at the front and I was behind her, and she got into her house and she jumped fences, she was running, I don't know which direction she was taking and as I was walking I heard a noise behind me, and as I turned I saw a group of people using the passage that was leading to the taxi rank and I said, let me follow, and then I followed. That is where I saw Nzimeni being assaulted, being stabbed with iron bars, everything was on his body and he fell at the taxi rank site and that was the end of him.

<UNKNOWN>: Who did you see assaulting Nzimeni? Can you mention, name them?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Frans Masike, Bulelane Ngoloma, Shephard Charlie, Albie Fasie, Baring Letia and others whom I cannot remember their names.
2B.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
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<UNKNOWN>: Patrick, the impression conveyed to this Committee is that you did not take part in the two acts. Can you then elaborate or explain, what do you think then why were you convicted for the two charges?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I was arrested and I appeared before the court of law and I gave the evidence that I'm giving you now. But I was sentenced.

<UNKNOWN>: The question is why do you think you were convicted?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I don't know but I think it's because I was a leader in the youth organisation in the township.

<UNKNOWN>: What leadership positions did you occupy in the South African Youth Congress Kuma Branch and the ANC Youth Congress?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I was the publicity and media officer for the SAYCO Kuma Branch in 1990, and when it was transformed to the ANC Youth League, Stilfontein Branch I was still their publicity media officer.  In 1991 I was elected to be the chairperson.

<UNKNOWN>: At the time of the assault of Nzimeni, do you think or would you say that had you had the necessary muscle at the time or the power at the time, to could have saved him from the mob or from the people that you mention to have assaulted him?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: The powers were there to intervene but the anger of the people would have never been stopped by those powers.

<UNKNOWN>: But you think that had you intervened or showed an attempt to intervene you would have probably saved the life of Nzimeni?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I think so.
2B.

JUDGE WILSON: /...
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JUDGE WILSON: Were you there when they were attacking him? I understood that you saw them going down a lane and that
you followed and when you arrived they were stabbing him and he died?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I said I was following them as the action was taking place.

JUDGE WILSON: I ask you were you there when they started attacking him?  Did you see the beginning of the attack? Because that's not what you told us a short while ago.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: When they started assaulting him I was not there.  From the passage to the taxi rank I saw when he was assaulted.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't expect of you to give us in detail the evidence that was led against you and I have heard you as to what you have told us that you did not take part and the like.  But did people during your trial testify and say you did take any part?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did they say you did?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: There were many people giving evidence, I forgot some of the evidence but the mother to the deceased said I finished him off.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What does that mean?