Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

UNKNOWN: Mr Mtsweni, what did your parents' death have to do with the ANC's political struggle?

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, I think my learned colleague has made an error, it wasn't this Mr Mtsweni whose parents died, it was the first one.

CHAIRPERSON: The other one.

UNKNOWN: Oh yes.  Mr Mtsweni, I will refer to the parents of July Mtsweni as your relatives, what did the death of these two relatives of yours, have to do with the ANC's political struggle?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: The deceased of July's parents had to do with politics, because the leaders  of the ANC said witches were disturbing development and we should kill informers and witches.

UNKNOWN: Before the comrades got involved in this matter, did you consider the issue between July's family and Emma Mtsweni, a family matter?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I saw it political.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying you saw it as  political or you saw it as a family matter, before the involvement of the comrades?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I think you have just explained your point now, you clarified it.  Initially when the family members were holding meetings, I didn't see it politically, but as time went on, I changed my perception and I could tell that it was political and comrades were saying "kill the witches and kill the informers."

UNKNOWN: So would I be correct to say that in your opinion, it only became political when the comrades became involved?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, when I realised comrades were getting involved in this matter, I could tell that it was political.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Does the Panel have any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes Chair, just one question from me.  Mr Mtsweni, can you give us names of political leaders who said this person should be burnt?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I can.  It was Scwadi and Skosh.

ADV SANDI: Where did say this?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You say it was Scwadi and Skosh, I am asking you where and when was that?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I am saying so because they were the people in front and everything that happened happened after they had explained to us.

ADV SANDI: Yes but did they specifically say that Emma must be burnt?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, they said so.   They said that Emma must be burnt, even though they didn't say this to me.  Everything that happened there, it was on their instruction.

ADV SANDI: Where were you when they said this, you say even if they did not say it to you?  Who was there when they said that Emma must be killed?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I am saying so because they were the people who were on the forefront and they were the people who were instructing people what to do.  That is why I am saying they said so, because people were following what they were saying.

ADV SANDI: I understood you to say that you were not sure if they were at the mountain where she was burnt?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I said so because I said there were quite a number of people and it was already dark at the time when we were at the mountain therefore one could hardly see someone in the face, even though you can see people moving up and down.  That is why I am saying I am not certain whether they were there still with the group.

ADV SANDI: Okay.  In other words when you say that they are the ones who said the deceased should be killed, you are not saying something that you know as a matter of fact, you are simply expressing what you think, you are stating an opinion?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I am not certain whether they were present, but the things which were happening there and the instructions which were issued were issued by him.  They were present but I didn't see them with my eyes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Re-examination, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Two or three questions.  Did you hear either one of the two leaders you named, say "Emma Mtsweni must die and be burnt", with your own ears?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I didn't hear that with my own ears.

MR RICHARD: My next question is once you knew that the crowd of comrades were going to burn Emma Mtsweni, did you at that point in time, see either one of the two leaders?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question, I didn't follow it?

MR RICHARD: Let me try it this way around, at what point in these proceedings did you know that Emma Mtsweni was going to be killed, was it on the mountain, at Vaalbank, the school?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Where I actually saw that Emma was in danger, it was when she had revealed that there was a man who had given her muti to kill July's parents.  That is where I realised that she had no chance because people started wanting to know who else were involved.

MR RICHARD: Where was she when she said what you have just related?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Where we dropped her.

MR RICHARD: Where was that, was that at the school, at the mountain or somewhere else?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: At the mountain, on the foot of the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Did you see either one of the two leaders near her and able to hear what she had just said?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: It was dark at that time, one couldn't see the faces and I do believe that they were there, they were present even though I didn't hear or see any of them.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mtsweni, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: The next applicant to be called is  Speelman Ernest Mtsweni.