Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

UNKNOWN: Captain Bellingan, do you recall that at some point in the intersection there was no longer any shooting?  Do you agree?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot remember that.  I was not only at the intersection.  I had gone back to the motor vehicle, I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: Today you do not recall that there is a conceivable break between the shooting in the intersection and the shooting in the bush?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, we heard that there was a break in the shooting, there was also a Caspar there.  I cannot comment on that.

UNKNOWN: All right, let, perhaps, we can help you with some of the evidence at the Weaver Trial.  You see, the evidence of Major Odendal at the Weaver Trial was that he recalls very specifically that this incident, the shooting as you refer to it, was completed by approximately 25 to eight that morning.  What do you have to say about that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was about 07H30 that morning, yes.

UNKNOWN: And Major Odendal also said at the Weaver Trial that he recalls very specifically that there was one then one further fuselage of shots that had come from the area of the bushes.  Do you recall that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If that was how he testified, that was how he testified.

UNKNOWN: And you will recall that he said that that had occurred approximately a few minutes before eight o' clock?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That, it might be so, the person on the video also said that.

UNKNOWN: Right and we also know from the evidence of Warrant Officer Barnard and Warrant Officer MacMaster at the Weaver Trial, that they were the only two persons who fired their shotguns in the bush.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If you say so and the documents substantiate that, it is so.  I did not see it, I did not read it, I cannot comment on that.

UNKNOWN: But you will agree that if the firing that we see on the video is the only other firing which occurred in the bush, then it has to be Warrant Officer Barnard and Warrant Officer MacMaster?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It must be so if that is the inference.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not the deceased?

UNKNOWN: All right.  Sorry, your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not the deceased ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Who were found ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... who had a pistol in his right hand?  The deceased was found with a pistol in his right hand.  Why should one infer that he was not shooting if people were shooting at him?

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, the, if I can, Mr Chairperson, if I can help you with the evidence of Warrant Officer Barnard.  Warrant Officer Barnard and Warrant Officer MacMaster at the Weaver Trial had indicated that they had chased those two deceased for a distance of approximately 400 meters into that bush and they said that they were no further than approximately "15 tree", if one can assume that means metres behind them at any one time.  Warrant Officer Barnard and Warrant Officer MacMaster had indicated that at no stage did the deceased who was found with the Tokarev pistol ever fire it at him.  The only person who fired shots, according to both Warrant Officer MacMaster and Warrant Officer Barnard, were themselves when they fired at those two deceased's.
	The evidence of Warrant Officer Barnard at the Weaver Trial was that he shot the first deceased, the person who was found with the Tokarev, as this person had turned to point the firearm at him, he fired at this deceased and he was killed.  He and Warrant Officer MacMaster, moments later, fired upon the other deceased who was found in the bush and that is the deceased whom we see on the hand grenade, on the video who allegedly had a hand grenade between his legs.  Their evidence was very clear at the Weaver Trial that there was no other firing in the bush.  
	Now, the question is and the question that I want to ask Captain Bellingan is if it is correct, if one can correctly assume that the firing that we see on this particular video at 07H56, has to be the firing of Warrant Officer Barnard and Warrant Officer MacMaster, how is it possible that a frame before that someone is talking about a Tokarev already?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment.  We have to identify those people.  I hear that Barnard is deceased, we should ask Mr MacMaster and the person who is speaking there, Labuschagne, has also died.  One evening a hand grenade was thrown at him in Crossroads.  I cannot comment on all that.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps we can just play the video a little bit further where they actually refer to the Tokarev now being at the deceased.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, ...
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:  ... wat die bosse ingehardloop het en hier deur die polisie aangekeer is.  Op die oomblik is die optog nog aan die gang en lede van die SAP is besig om die bos te vee.  Dit kan gesien word dat hierdie bosse reedelik ruig is.  Nog een van die Swartes.  Die Tokarev pistool le nog steeds langs hierdie Swarte."

UNKNOWN: Captain Bellingan, you will, having looked at the video, you will see that there is now a reference to a Tokarev which was allegedly found at one of the bodies of the deceased in the bush, but moments before that we hear two people talking about a Tokarev and the fact that Trompie has the Tokarev.  Can you explain that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I do not want to comment on what I am hearing on the video.  I was not there.  The person who made this video must come and, come here and explain to us whether this is an original video or were these were various cuts from different videos.  I cannot comment on that.  We should ask him whether that was the original video, whether any cuts were made and whether they were spliced together afterwards.  I cannot comment on that.  I am listening to what he is asking, I cannot answer that.

UNKNOWN: So, Captain Bellingan, you are, you concede the possibility that there may be sections of this video, of  the shooting itself, which we do not see?  You concede that there is that possibility?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, the person who took the video should come and explain.  I cannot come and comment on what he has made.  I cannot comment, I do not want to speculate.

UNKNOWN: Yes, and you, right and then you are also conceding the fact that this video that we are seeing may be a spliced video?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It is a possibility, Sir.

UNKNOWN: It is a piece of patchwork.  Would you agree?  Would you agree, Captain Bellingan?

CHAIRPERSON: He has said he cannot comment.  Will you please go on with your questioning.  We know that the person, at least as I understand the video, the man had said at 07H56 people are still shooting at the police from the bush.  Is that what appeared on the video?

UNKNOWN: That would appear to be the case, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: On the evidence you have just related to me that is not true, is it?  You have told me that these two policemen chased these men, they were not, did not fire any shot at the policemen and the policemen shot them.  So, what, is appears on the video is incorrect.

UNKNOWN: On the contrary, Mr Chairperson, perhaps, you have misunderstood me.  What I am saying is that what appears on the video, in other words, the shots that we hear in the bush at 07H56 are, in fact, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: The man says the people are still shooting at the police, does he not?

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, that may be correct, but all we are hearing are shots.

CHAIRPERSON: I am referring to what he said.  It is not correct, is it?

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, it would appear not to be correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, carry on.

UNKNOWN: A question regarding your evidence in respect of Jimmy Mbane, in your evidence in the Section 29 hearings, you mentioned the fact that you could not remember seeing Jimmy Mbane exiting from that vehicle that was parked in the intersection.  Do you recall that?