Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR DIAZ: No that is - sorry, insofar as Zazi Kuzwayo, I represent Mrs Kuzwayo the wife, the surviving spouse.  Her instructions to me is that the applicant has it would appear to her, been reasonably or satisfactorily honest and truthful about his testimony insofar as that murder is concerned.  She does not support his application for amnesty, she does not oppose it either, she would leave the matter in the hands of the Honourable Committee Members.
	Insofar as Mrs Mkhize is concerned, the surviving spouse of the deceased Mkhize, Mrs Mkhize however wishes to testify - would like to confer with me further - has not had proper regard to all the documents before us - would like to confer with me - give me a detailed statement and for that purpose it would appear that I would require much time.  
	I would imagine the first difficulty insofar as her statement is concerned is the fact that she speaks in Zulu, is slow at giving instructions - wants to come to terms with all the things that have been said, is somewhat emotional as well.  If I could beg this Committee's indulgence in seeking an adjournment perhaps to consult with her further to be properly instructed and then to deal with her testimony.
	Insofar as the last family member that I represent is concerned, that is Mr Kuzwayo whose the next of kin of Kushana Kuzwayo, Kushana Kuzwayo being his deceased father, he also is in a position where he would required to consult with me further - would like to deal with the contents of these papers - feels that as the matter stands presently that he would like oppose the application and would like to testify to that effect.
	Mr Chairman and Honourable Committee members, my present position is that insofar as the three clients are concerned, to summarise, the one person does not oppose, does not stand by the application, would follow this Committee's stand.
	Insofar as the other two clients are concerned, they seek this Honourable Committee's indulgence to instruct me properly and further.
	Sorry Mr Chairman, may I just mention this as well, lest it be said that it hadn't been said, the family members of Advocate - Judge Tshabalala are here, they have indicated to me that he is indisposed and they feel that he ought to have been present.  They have spoken to me briefly about the need for them to intervene, they feel that the applicant has not been absolutely honest with all that he has said.  They have not instructed me but it would appear that, that discussion would be necessary as well before they proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, what is your attitude in this matter?

MR BRINK: I have no objection to the matter standing down.  I would suggest possibly till 2 o'clock, bearing in mind tomorrow's matter will not be going on and even if we're able to start at 2 o'clock, we may well finish today, I don't know.  I won't be long in this matter but I can't speak for my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: The application for the matter to stand down?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BRINK: Sorry.

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  If my learned friend here could give us an indication as to how long will it take him to get his instructions because I'm of the view that if it's possible that he could take instructions, I would follow the route pursued by my colleague Mr Brink.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have the assistance of an interpreter?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, unfortunately not, but what I was hoping to achieve is to take the family members to my offices and using interpret I have there and perhaps in the course of the balance of today, take proper instructions and revert on some later date.  As I indicated earlier, the difficulty I have with Mrs Mkhize that she's one very distraught and emotional and would like to talk to me as soon as she has got her emotions together.

CHAIRPERSON: It's unfortunate that you have that kind of problem but I think that the Committee would like to proceed with these applications as expeditiously as possible and if it means working till late, we'll have to do that.  I can't refuse your application for some time to enable us to proceed.  Some of the consultation you may have to do a little later but I would like us to adjourn to afford you an opportunity until 2 o'clock to take sufficient instructions so that we may proceed this afternoon and get as much done as we may.   ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: And see if we can't deal with those this afternoon.  So, we are going to grant you an indulgence, we'll resume at 2 o'clock.

MR DIAZ: ...(inaudible)  that will suffice.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps Mr Brink, could somebody of R and R, the Reparation Committee assist him in dealing with the victim that needs help.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, if somebody - is a representative of the R and R Committee present?

MR BRINK: No to my knowledge but I'm told they're aware of the application.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) adjourn now.

MR BRINK: I'll make ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Will you make ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: I will do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: I will do that, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Shangweni, could you kindly assist me, are you applying or your client applying as a member of a political party or as a member - or as an employee of the State?  If you could think about it and have a look at Section 20, Sub-Section 2 and when we resume try to assist us.

CHAIRPERSON: As things stand presently, he can't be an employee of the State.  It seems that he'd been carrying out instructions as an employee of the man whose name is mentioned, Mr Djamile.

MR SHANGWENI: And a member of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: That's correct.  And he was a member of Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct but the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct but the question of membership, I don't think it is in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  All we have is his word that at some stage he ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: With your permission Mr Chairperson, I need direction in respect of the matter of Mrs Pearl Shabalala.  According to my instructions the applicant is applying in respect of Zazi Kuzwayo, Nicolas Mkhize, the attempted murder of Begelita Letule and Cornelius Nsomi.  We mentioned Mrs Pearl Shabalala for the purpose of full disclosure because we felt that it was necessary, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct, I wanted my learned friend to take that into account.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) mind the application is not in respect of the killing of killing of Mrs Shabalala, you'll bear that in mind.

MR SHANGWENI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn and begin at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

MR DIAZ: Thank you Chairman. I propose to cross-examine the applicant ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: : The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

CROSS- MR DIAZ: (cont)
	Certainly, Mr Chairman.  Firstly I would cross-examine the applicant in regard to the death of Mr Mkhize, Mandla Mkhize acting on the instructions of his surviving spouse Mrs Tandi Mkhize and on an aspect of that testimony supported in corroboration by Mrs Prisile Kuzwayo, surviving spouse of Zazi Kuzwayo, thank you.

MR_DIAZ: Mr Hlope, you have been charged at some stage with the murder of Mr Mandla Mkhize and other persons, do you recall?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) in fact convicted of that.

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do remember that.