Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR FORBES: I think the question was, the question that should be asked is why did I for example at, just after my suicide ask or complain to the Psychiatrist, then Mr Zabouw, that in all the three months that I had been under Section 29, that I had not been able to get a Bible or even a Khoran into my cell.	And that he had said that he would try and persuade you to give those books to me.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Commissioners, it was a regulation by the then South African Security Branch to foresee every detainee with at least, excuse me, a Bible of their choice.  That was left to members whose sole purpose was to visit the detainees.
	The point I am trying to make here, irrespective of what Mr Forbes says now, I am asking him and he is evading the question, that I not on one occasion, but out of my own, contrary to police regulations, took him Western books to read.  I used to go visit him on a Sunday afternoon, sometimes at Milnerton I would bring you fresh fruit.
	At that stage you were smoking, am I correct?  I can even remember at one stage in my office, where I was almost chain smoking and you said that I have taught you to smoke again.  And after that you used to get cigarettes from me, correct?

MR FORBES: Mr Benzien, if you could just focus on the suicide for a moment and I think, at this point I am still just a little, not satisfied in terms of your explanation to actually try and help the Commission and us ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just formulate the question again, about suicide.

MR FORBES: Why is it, why does Mr Benzien think I may have tried to commit suicide after three months, just prior to the 16th when he for example says that he was only with me for half an hour on two occasions?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sorry Sir, the half an hour, Mr Forbes is putting out of context.  I said and I said it in - that I had spoken to them on occasions, up to 14, 15, 16 hours a day after the initial interrogation that I did, we sat and worked out pages and pages and pages of documentation, that you told me about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Forbes, can I come in here.  I think the question is, you see Mr Forbes put to you earlier on that you either assaulted or threatened to assault him on the 16th of every month, which you denied and now what really he is saying to you is, why if that is the case, why if you did not on the 16th of every month either assault me or threatened to assault me, why would I on the fourth month, just before the 16th, what would have pushed me, what could have pushed me into committing suicide?	If you did not on the 16th of every month not assault me or threatened to assault me?  I think that is the question he is asking you, or part of it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Unfortunately Sir, I cannot say what motivated him to do that.  What I am definitely saying is that he is making a mistake about this every 16th of the month.
	I have tried to jog his memory by saying the way I treated him, but whatever drove him to suicide, I can understand the method of detention and being cut off from humanity and that, could surely cause a person to be suicidal.

CHAIRPERSON: But on your version, you developed a fairly good relationship with him and you seem to have seen him, visited occasionally, bringing him books to read, cigarettes to smoke, why then all of a sudden, what drives him to this drastic decision of taking away his own life?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know Your Worship.  The books I think came after, he had first been at Sea Point, my memory is vague here, but then he went to Milnerton and after that we had done a couple of trips through the country and at Milnerton I think it was, where I started giving him books and that, that was after the suicidal attempt.  Correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I am not able to reconcile this, the drive you had.  You yourself said that you did hear that he wanted to commit suicide.
	I can't reconcile that with the description you gave us of a person who was taking us to braais, go around building up some snow men and all that sort of thing.  Why would a person who was treated in that fashion, be driven to committing suicide, I can't reconcile this.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Worship, this came as a surprise also because after my initial assault on Mr Forbes, he was then at Sea Point if I remember correctly,  when this suicidal attempt came.
	What drove him to it, I can only think as I say, but I have got no, maybe the hospitals or that could say why.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you the only policeman seeing him at that time, assaulting him and torturing him or were other police also involved?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, there were other people that would visit him, like the Duty Officers, the Inspector of Detainees, District Surgeons.  What policemen visited him, I know I visited him, he accompanied me on trips into the country and mostly after his detention in Milnerton, I visited him.
	And as I say, that used to be on a Sunday afternoon more or less.  During working hours, because we had this good rapport, he was telling me things about Umkhonto weSizwe, how the whole set up worked and what have you.
	And that was in sometimes, he would get paper, he would go write, he would come back and we would work on this.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he distressed because of giving you information about his colleagues after being assaulted and knowing that he is sort of betraying his comrades?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, it is a long time ago.  I seem to recollect that on times he was down.  If I say down, I mean depressed, but then again I can also remember on occasions when he was jovial.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Benzien, having regard to the fact that you had a reasonably good relationship with Mr Forbes, did you after hearing that he had attempted to take his life, discuss that with him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me, after I heard that he had taken ...?

SISI KHAMPEPE: He had attempted to take his life, did you discuss that aspect with him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Madam, it is a long time ago.  I can't really remember.  In the context of him being a Regulation or Article 29 detainee, I think that the book business and that was more to keep his mind occupied because with all the detainees in solitary confinement for that long time, they had really nothing to apply their minds to.
	I can't specifically remember discussing the reasons or the methods or what have you.  If I can remember correctly, he was being treated by the District Surgeon for some or other disorder and he accumulated the tablets or something that was given to him, is that correct?  I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we move on to some other aspect of the matter now, Mr Forbes.

MR FORBES: Maybe I can just ask also about after I was, after I tried to commit suicide I was sent to the hospital and do you remember trying to use the black bag method on me again when I was in hospital or the wet bag method?

CHAIRPERSON: When you were in hospital?

MR FORBES: That is correct, after the suicide attempt?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, it shocks me and causes me to be sad to presume or that I had presumed that this meeting is truth and reconciliation and that Mr Forbes now puts it to this Forum that I tried to put a bag over him while he was in hospital and he was detained in Groote Schuur hospital at that stage.
	I think  it is, I don't know what to think Your Honour, I am exceptionally disappointed.

MR FORBES: Do you remember that I was first kept in the kind of communal ward and thereafter I was moved to a single ward after there was some, after the families tried to visit me and that I was taken into a room or into a hospital ward where I was alone in one room?  Do you remember that Captain?