Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR DU TOIT: No I am not trying to mislead you.  I don't know anything about the Reverend's arrest.  There were many incidents.  I myself wasn't present when that took place and I can't recall any such incident.  It's possible, because I don't know the Reverend, I suppose I wouldn't really remember the incident, so I can't say anything more about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know if any other Reverend, persons, members of the clergy fraternity were there and gave eye witness accounts of what happened?  As an information gatherer did you manage to pick that up, that on those three days there were eye witness accounts given by other ministers, did you manage to pick that up?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes I was aware that church people had testified that they were on the scene.  I later became aware of that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you not aware shortly thereafter that there were church people who claimed to have been eye witnesses to what happened on that day?

MR DU TOIT: No, I wasn't immediately aware of that because I wasn't present at those incidents or scenes.

MR NTSEBEZA: You don't have to have to have been present to have been doing your job properly as an information gatherer.  On the Wednesday, June the 11th, the Cape Times ran in its leader page a detailed account of who the witnesses were.   Reverend John Fryer.
"We saw Police covering the Witdoeke and firing on the defending shacks".
 Reverend John Freeth,
"It was very clear that the Witdoeke were operating under Police protection".
 Reverend David Cooke,
"Right in front of us there were three casspirs.  No attempt was made to stop the looting, burning and fighting.  I saw a policeman shooting with a rifle into KTC defenders to prevent them from defending their property".
 Father Desmond Curren, St Gabriels Guguletu and Mrs Emma Huismans, Editor of Crisis News, they all gave accounts.  
 Now are you saying this was as it was happening, it was reported as it was happening, are you saying, as a person whose duty it was to gather information that you were not aware that not only were there these people who were there but they were making those claims?  Did you become aware for instance as at that date that there were these claims that were being made?

MR DU TOIT: I also read about it in the media and the press ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much.

MR DU TOIT: Thank you.

MR NTSEBEZA: When once you read that these are the people who were giving accounts did you endeavour to contact them?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I didn't contact them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Didn't you consider that it would have been useful for your report to be a balanced report, especially as you were going to take it ...(intervention)

MR DU TOIT: No, no I reported regarding the media and press reports as to what had happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, I am asking a specific question Mr du Toit. Didn't you consider it was in the best interests of a balanced report for you to contact the people who were making these claims, or were reported to be making these claims?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, no I didn't ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Now what is your answer, is it yes, is it no, is it yes-no?

MR DU TOIT: No I didn't consider it necessary to contact them after the statements I had read, statements that they had made in the press.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why didn't you consider it necessary to contact them?

MR DU TOIT: Because I had already seen their views in the newspaper.

MR NTSEBEZA: And - because you had seen their views in the newspapers, was it because you didn't like their views that you felt that it is not necessary to contact them?  I don't understand.

MR DU TOIT: No, no Chairperson, it's not that I didn't like them or what they were saying, I accepted that they were saying that that's what they had seen.

MR NTSEBEZA: Right.  Did you incorporate those views in your report to whoever you were reporting?  Did you say, there is also an account here, there's an account which says - by John Fryer, this person this, did you incorporate those?

MR DU TOIT: Most definitely.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you have a copy of that report or can you find it?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I have no copies.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala wants to make a follow-up question.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr du Toit you have had 11 to 12 years to think about this, upon reflection do you think you should have included this information in your report?  I am talking about now.  You've had quite a bit of time to think about it, I hope you've thought about it.  Do you think that you should have included this information from the clergy in your report?   I am trying to get your thinking today.

MR DU TOIT: You want to know how I feel about it today, I am not quite sure what you mean.  Could you please make it a little bit clearer.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, 60 people were killed, numerous others were injured, almost 60,000 people lost their homes, during this past 11 to 12 years have you thought about this, have you been thinking about this?

MR DU TOIT: Oh yes very definitely, I've thought about it a lot.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: What specifically have you been thinking?

MR DU TOIT: That it was cruel, it was inhumane to kill people and you abhor it, and it happens.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Now Sir, having thought about it and reflecting about the nature of your report do you think that you should have included the information - or actually, do you think you should have interviewed the clergy about what they saw, in your report?

MR DU TOIT: No I still believe that I acted correctly, I acted correctly, the way I acted was correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And you don't think that your report was not balanced?

MR DU TOIT: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am just going to ask mechanically questions that you should reply to as best you can.
 Now for instance in your report did you mention that prior to the attacks on KTC, on the morning of 9th June, policemen were seen at meetings with Witdoeke in Crossroads and Khayaletsha where the advance on KTC was discussed, was that part of your report?

MR DU TOIT: Could I perhaps see that, I don't have it in front of me, I don't ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: You are the one who made the report Mr du Toit, don't let us play games here.  You made the report, if you recall whether you had mentioned it you can just say it.

MR DU TOIT: I can't recall, could I perhaps see a copy of this ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: I don't know, this is from witness accounts.  Do you recall if in your report you had mentioned that on the morning of the 9th of June policemen were seen gathering at meetings with Witdoeke in Crossroads and Khayaletsha where the advance on KTC was discussed, do you recall if that was part of your report?

MR DU TOIT: No, no ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: You didn't report that?

MR DU TOIT: No that wasn't part of my report, I don't know anything about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Because you didn't have that information?

MR DU TOIT: No, no, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry can I just ask you, what then was the conclusion of your report?  What was the conclusion of your report - you remember very clearly that that was not part of your report, but can you tell us what was the conclusion of your report?

MR DU TOIT: I still don't understand the question, what do you mean what conclusion?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did your report allege that when the Witdoeke gathered in their thousands on the western end of Crossroads from early in the morning of the 9th of June 1986 the Railway Police were present?  You had been talking with Dolf on a fairly intimate basis before this ...(intervention)

MR DU TOIT: Yes.