Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mlifie's firearm was taken from him, what I did, I threw him down and one of the Riot Squad members disarmed him and that is after Mlifie indicated that he will take us where the rest of the group was.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I understand all that.  The question simply is who disarmed him, who took the firearm away from him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, I do not know the names of these people.  It was the first time I worked with them.  I do not know their names.

UNKNOWN: You also have no idea who fired the second shot at Mr Mlifie while he was lying on the ground?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I think it is a Sergeant, but I do not know his name.

UNKNOWN: Is this the same Sergeant whom you allege gave you the instruction to shoot him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: And you say you do not know who this person is?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Did you stay by Mr Mlifie's body?  Did you stay by ...

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Sir.

UNKNOWN: You did not stay there even momentarily whilst Mr Mlifie was lying on the ground after he had been shot?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It, I was just standing around there, but we were being called to come and identify the bodies that were lying around.

UNKNOWN: Whose idea was it to place Mr Mlifie's firearm back on his body?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not know, Sir, but I think it was for the photo session purpose.

UNKNOWN: What was it intended to convey having put Mr Mlifie's firearm back on him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I think it was to show evidence that they were armed.

UNKNOWN: Is it not correct that it was also to show that these people had tried to use their weapons, not so, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is the thought that occurred to me at a later stage.

UNKNOWN: That was certainly the statement that you made at the time, Mr Mbelo.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that for the same purposes a similar thing could have been done to each of the other deceased apart from Christopher Piet and apart from Mr Mxinwa, who it is alleged, lobbed the hand grenade.  What do you say about that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is a very difficult question for me to answer, but according to the things that happened, I would agree with you.

UNKNOWN: As a Vlakplaas operative, Mr Mbelo, do you not think that it was perfectly possible that it could have happened that way?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, Vlakplaas is capable of a lot of things and that is possible also.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps I should just help you.  You will recall that in the previous proceedings Mr Mxinwa, and to help you on the plan, that is the person at point Q, had allegedly been found with an undischarged hand grenade lying between his legs, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it has appeared even on the photos.  That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you will agree that Mr Mjobo, who is the person allegedly lying at point, the person lying at point S, was found, allegedly found with a pistol at his side which, according to the policemen at the time who had killed him, he had never used.  Do you agree?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.  It has appeared even on TV.

UNKNOWN: And we also know that Mr Jabu Miya, the person who was allegedly found at point B, was also allegedly found with an undischarged hand grenade, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And we now know that your Mr Mlifie had never attempted to use his firearm and yet it was placed back on his body, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is so.

UNKNOWN: You remember (end of tape 1A) seeing Captain Liebenberg there on that day?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, he was present at the scene immediately after the shooting.  I saw him walking around together with some other men.

UNKNOWN: Was he not there before the shooting, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Liebenberg was present even at Wingfield.  As to who he was with, I am not positive.  At the time of the shooting he was present at the scene nearby.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember the then Major Odendal testifying that Captain Liebenberg and the video crew were in one vehicle?  Can you dispute that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to the testimony that has been given, yes, I do remember.

UNKNOWN: Now, would you agree then that the inference is inescapable that Captain Liebenberg and his video crew were right there before the shooting went down and during the shooting, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do agree, they were in the vicinity.

UNKNOWN: I want to put it to you that you have seen another video to this incident, apart from the one that the Committee has had the benefit of.  What do you say about that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not agree with you on that aspect.

UNKNOWN: I would ask you to think very carefully about that, Mr Mbelo.  What do you say?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: After the shooting we were not shown any other video.  This is the video that was shown to us in court.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I am aware this is the video that was shown to you in court.  I am talking about a video that you had seen outside of court, do you know about that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: There is no other video that was shown to me besides the one that was shown in court as well as here.  Probably, if it was shown, it was shown to the Whites and their seniors or the people who were in power at that time, but not us.

UNKNOWN: Do I understand you to be acknowledging the existence of another video, but that you have not seen that video?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: What I am saying is that if the cameraman is there when the shooting takes place, it is possible that they made their own video, but that I am not aware of.

UNKNOWN: All right.  One last question on the video.  Did you see the video crew there at the time that you shot Mr Mlifie, were they very nearby you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I never saw any camera crew.

UNKNOWN: When you went up in the helicopter was there any camera crew with you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, there was a camera man above who was taking photos of the scene of the shooting.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall seeing the same camera man also on the ground that day?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not recall quite well.  It is probable that he was there.

UNKNOWN: Can you give the Committee the benefit of this person's name?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not know his name.

UNKNOWN: All right.  Now, you have annexed some or you have referred to some documents. I am not going to be too long your Worship, five more minutes, you have referred to some documents in the, in your application, the affidavit, sorry, in this application.  I would like to ask you have you read the document called "Planning for a Peoples' War"?  Have you read that document?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I have never read that document.

UNKNOWN: Did you attend the submission, the second submission of the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were you there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you read a document titled "The Second Submission of the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission" dated 12 May 1997?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That document came to my attention through my attorney.

UNKNOWN: I see.  So, if there is any impression created here that you have read any of these documents and that these documents are what strengthened your personal perceptions at the time that this incident happened, that is quite incorrect, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Chairperson.