Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr De Jager.  So just for the record, the counsel have indicated that they are ad idem
 /with
2A with the questions put to the witness by Mr Maritz and will not go over the same territory as it were.

MR MACADAM: Possibly just one question emerging out of questions that are raised already.  With you - how familiar are you with the conflict which existed in KwaZulu-Natal in the mid eighties?

WITNESS:   A very broad understanding from what have been presented here and from what I've read about it.

MR MACADAM: Would you identify, at that stage of the conflict, a need for rural communities to arm their villages with mortars to defend themselves from attack?

WITNESS:   I think once again it comes back to the point that was made earlier, that you've got to make a pretty comprehensive political and military threat - if you villages are coming under military attack with whatever type of weaponry, then you'd devise the appropriate counter measures and I think that stage is more typically associated with Stage 3 of counter revolutionary warfare where you've moved from political mobilisation into the initial stages of armed struggle into a much more fully fledged rural armed struggle.  Once you've reached that stage you could - and that would probably more accurately describe the scenario in Northern Namibia in the mid eighties onwards, where you had large amounts of insurgents coming in, hitting bases, hitting villages.  To my knowledge that was not the situation in KwaZulu-Natal, there were limited rural skirmishes.  There's a high level of political presence and organisation within the urban areas, but even militarily, your urban operations there were largely, as far as I can recall, limited to special operations type of attacks, armed propaganda.

MR MACADAM: /And

MR MACADAM: 2A And - I don't want to give evidence myself, but my own understanding of the conflict at that time was that the South African Defence Force was deployed in these areas primarily to deal with the - I would say the hard type of excursion.  If there were a group of fully trained MK members who had crossed the border from Mozambique carrying RPG7s, heavy machine guns, that would be dealt with by the SADF itself, which was on patrol in those self-same area, whether or not the KwaZulu Government administered the areas?

WITNESS:   Well, typically units like 121 Battalion in a rural counter insurgency capacity would be doing that task of border protection, cordons, needs-be searches of areas.

MR MACADAM: And I don't want to dip into your own knowledge, but are you aware of any objections that were raised by the KwaZulu Government that the SADF was performing this functions in their areas ... (intervention)?

WITNESS:   Not to my knowledge, but as I say, I only have a very general knowledge of the period.

MR MACADAM: And it has been suggested to you that the training that these people received would be no different than the enormous number of conscripts(?) that went through the ordinary military training for the Defence Force.  I'm just wondering how persons would - to perform their duties as ordinary law-abiding members of any defence force would need to know how to lie to the police, escape from police custody, as certain of these witnesses have claimed they were trained?

WITNESS:   I think any - military people are trained according to the corps and the function, the specialisation that they're brought into.  I think what is unique about the type of training that these people

MR MACADAM: /received

MR MACADAM: 2A received ... (intervention)

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry, my belated effort is caused by the fact that I didn't have a microphone available, but I want to object to this question.  I went over the evidence which was available to me, over the weekend and the closest that I could get to this suggestion is that contained in the evidence of Mr Dlamini.  Now Mr Dlamini said  if you'll just bear with me - on the record, when he was questioned by the police, the question was by Mr Macadam

MR MARITZ: "Now were you at any stage in the camp where you were taken to from Ulundi given any training or instructions as to how you should react with the police?".

MR MARITZ: The answer was this, "Yes" -

MR MARITZ: "Will you tell us about that?

WITNESS:   The said we should avoid them, not mix with them.

MR MARITZ: Anything else?

WITNESS:   I have forgotten".

MR MARITZ: There's nothing sinister in that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Maritz.  There was also evidence from Mr Mkhize who said that they were trained to run away from the police on day one.

MR LAX: Armed combat.  They were also trained how to resist arrest by making reference to personal combat techniques and where to hit people so they could escape easily;  how to break out of custody.  That's what he alluded to in his evidence.  So I don't know if you - maybe you didn't pick it up in his evidence at all, but my recollection is intensely clear in that regard.
/
MR MARITZ
2A

MR MARITZ: Probably I didn't hear it.

MR LAX: Ja.

MR MARITZ: But it was certainly not said in evidence-in-chief.  That's my recollection.  Not by Mr Mkhize either.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the record will show that it was said in his evidence-in-chief and the record is available, Mr Maritz.

MR MARITZ: I have been corrected by my colleagues.  They say that it was said.  I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: Could you then answer that question?

WITNESS:  I think what differentiates the type of training that was received here, it was most probably typically akin to the type of training that Special Forces personnel would receive, although it wasn't as extensive as that, in the sense that they received training in basic infantry weapons, more advanced infantry weapons and plastic explosives which are your classic engineering skills and then in the range of type of skills that were referred to earlier on and that is house penetration, concealment of evidence, abduction and that's what makes it different from the normal generic type of training the people would receive.

MR MACADAM: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

MR MACADAM: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM

CHAIRPERSON: If there are no further questions for Dr Williams, then we will let him go and proceed with our next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is probably convenient now to break for lunch until 2 o'clock.  I think it might be convenient
 /to
2A to try and get through any new witnesses which we have to day, it's Mr - Inspector Marion and Mr Mbambo.  So I think if we could limit lunch for 45 minutes until quarter to two and resume here at 1.45, quarter to two, please.
LONG ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Please resume your seats.  We are going to start now with the evidence of Mr Mbambo.  Mr Mbambo, please can you give us your full names.

ROMEO MBUZO MBAMBO: (Sworn States)

MR MACADAM: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I'm just trying to ascertain in which language the witness wants to give evidence in and he has indicated that he wants to give evidence in Zulu.
THE WITNESS ELECTS TO GIVE HIS EVIDENCE THROUGH AN INTERPRETER

MR MACADAM: Now is it correct that you were once a member of the KwaZulu Police, but that in 1995 you were convicted of a series of crimes, sentenced to a term of imprisonment and you are now serving that term?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MACADAM: And is it further correct that you applied for amnesty in respect of these cases in which you were sentenced as well as other offences for which you have not as yet been charged?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MACADAM: Now in the 1980s, did you become a card carrying member of any particular party in KwaZulu-Natal?

WITNESS:   Inkatha Freedom Party, yes.

MR MACADAM: And is it further correct that you joined the KwaZulu Police in 1990?

WITNESS:   That is true.

MR MACADAM: /And