Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr van der Berg, if you were there at that time and being in the situation that I was, and after so many years, you cannot recall everything to detail, minute by minute.  You'll recall some things and some you will not recall.  And some things you would recall if a person like you, Mr van der Berg, starts asking me questions.
	You must take note of the fact that you cannot recall everything.  You cannot tell me, Mr van der Berg, that you can recall everything that happened in your life thusfar, anything that's happened ages ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Berg, ...

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you Chairperson.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, but this is what is so important, this is what is your case, the crux of the matter.  You don't mention that in your affidavit.  It's a very important thing you forgot and that is what I find quite strange.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You cannot recall everything in detail, regardless of how important it is but because this is of importance to you, you feel that I should not forget it.  Everyone is prone to forget, including you.
	You have been asking me questions and the Chairperson has been constantly reminding you that you've asked that question and you have accepting the fact that you have forgotten the fact that you have asked that question already.  You are also human just like me, we forget.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, I remember what the Chairperson told me, you don't have to remind me of it.
Mr Menyatsoe, you testified that you immediately shot the AWB person who moved his hand to his hip, and this implies that if you shot him at that stage surely his hand would have been next to his hip in that position and not in front of him as the photos indicate.  Can you comment on that?

MR HENDRICKSE: Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt my learned friend's cross-examination, but clearly this is a matter for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: I think so, Mr van der Berg, and also it would be a question of opinion as to where the hand of the deceased might have ended up being after being shot.  There's so many variables and I don't know if Mr Menyatsoe's opinion is going to sway the matter one way or the other.  It's essentially a question of argument.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you, Chairperson.  I think at this stage there are two aspects I'd like to mention.  Firstly, I understand that the journalist is here and also we would also like to show a video of the events.  Maybe this is then an appropriate time to adjourn so that we can get all these things fixed up and put in place.

CHAIRPERSON: What we'll do, Mr van der Berg, is we will take the early tea adjournment.  We won't adjourn for tea, we'll take the tea adjournment now.  Instead of us seeing the whole video with the politicians talking etc., if you could perhaps get it to a point where you want us to see, namely the actual shooting and that might save a bit of time as well.  What we'll do now is we will take the tea adjournment at this stage, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Berg, what is the situation relating to the journalist who came this morning?

MR VAN DER BERG: Yes, Mr Chairman, we do have a Mr Peter de Ionne here, he is available.  And I think the best is, with respect, Mr Chairman, to lead his evidence first so that he can then go back to Johannesburg where he comes from.  Mr Peter de Ionne is here and available to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendrickse, would you have any objection to that?

MR HENDRICKSE: I have no objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: No objection, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terreblanche, do you have any objection?

MR TERREBLANCHE: I have no objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you going to call the witness now?
	Mr Menyatsoe, what is happening now is there is a witness being called, it's going to be interposed in your evidence because apparently the witness is only here for a very limited time.  So if you could stand down for a moment, then we'll continue with you thereafter.  Thank you.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling the witness, Mr van der Berg?

MR VAN DER BERG: I'll call him, Mr Chairman, but he's not been sworn in yet.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: My name is Peter Dominique de Ionne.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Ionne, do you have any objection in taking the oath?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: (affirms)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr van der Berg?

MR VAN DER BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr de Ionne, you were in Mmbatho during March 1994 and more specifically on the 11th of March 1994, is that correct?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: That's correct.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr de Ionne, can you recall what happened on Friday, the 11th of March when the three AWB members were shot?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: I was present after arriving on the scene after their vehicle had been stopped by the Bop Security Forces.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, in what capacity were you there, Mr de Ionne?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: I was a reporter for the Sunday Times.

MR VAN DER BERG: And when did you arrive at the scene where the Mercedes Benz was stopped or came to a halt?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: We were approaching - we were driving towards Mafikeng on the road that goes past the police barracks, the shooting broke out and we arrived several minutes after the shooting had stopped.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr de Ionne, can you just tell the Committee today what you observed during that time when you were at the Mercedes Benz and the incident that took place that day.

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: When we arrived, we saw that several, three men were on the ground alongside the vehicle.  They were wearing AWB uniforms.  They appeared subdued and the police were milling about.  There were several policemen and a number of journalists had just left the scene.

MR VAN DER BERG: And can you please proceed.  Did you interview the three AWB members?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: One man lying alongside the vehicle appeared to be dead and I spoke with the other two who appeared not to be seriously injured.  I think the man, Wolfaardt was lying on the ground, face down and the man Uys was up against the rear wheel of the vehicle.  I spoke to them.
	Uys was very distressed and I couldn't get coherent responses from him but Wolfaardt after some persuasion, answered several questions and refused to say anything else.  The photographer with me took pictures.  I spoke to an officer, I thought, from the BDF.  I think he was a Colonel Marx(?) and asked what was going to happen to these men, and he said an ambulance had been called.  We decided to wait on the scene until the ambulance arrived and take more photographs and watch what happened.
	A number of other journalists also spoke to the men on the ground and we, after a short time, I think it was a Bop police officer who was wearing a hard riot helmet, I remember that very distinctly, approached the men with his rifle, pointed towards them and started threatening them.  He became very abusive.  I approached him and I put my arm on his shoulder or hand on his shoulder and told him to cool it, to calm down, you know, everything was under control.  
	Another security officer came along and sort of walked away with him.  And after several more minutes a man wearing green fatigues, Bop Police uniform, approached from, if I was facing the car, from my left and my recollection is he shot Wolfaardt in the head, in the back of the head and ran to the other man and shot him as well.

MR VAN DER BERG: How long were the three AWB members lying on the ground, do you remember?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Sorry, I didn't hear that.

MR VAN DER BERG: How long were the three AWB members lying on the ground?