Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

RUSSELL ALLY: And you still have not been given a death certificate of Walter because in your statement you say
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there was no death certificate.  Is that still the situation now?

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: No, they did not give me a death certificate.  I do not have it in my possession.

RUSSELL ALLY: And after this event did you have anymore trouble with the police?  Did they still harass you and come to the house?  What happened after Walter's death?

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: Yes, they still come to my house.  They are looking for the uncle to these young boys and they ended up killing his uncle and since then the police have not visited me anymore.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry, can you say, they killed his uncle.

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: Yes, they also killed his uncle.

RUSSELL ALLY: Walter's uncle.  How did he die?

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: Yes, it is Walter's uncle and he was killed by the police.  Maybe he was on his way to Johannesburg, I think, going to the offices of a certain organisation and they shot him on his way to Johannesburg.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mama.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions?  Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Ledwaba, this story you are telling us is almost similar to the one of Oupa Masuku that we heard on Monday.  Did you know Oupa or was Oupa known to your children?

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: Who do you mean?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I mean Oupa Masuku.

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: Yes, he knew Skwitch.  Oupa Masuku, yes, he knew Skwitch.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: And I was telling him on Sunday that you Masuku you no more come to visit me and comfort me and check PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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on how I am living and he said he was not available, he had gone overseas by then.

CHAIRPERSON: Mam, what can one say.  We have no words to comfort you because whilst you are speaking, you are speaking about one grandson.  There are two children of yours who have been killed.

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: They are all three including their uncle.  They did not put their uncle's name in the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: What I am saying is maybe you are feeling very weak.

ELIZABETH LEDWABA: Yes, I am losing hope.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not even know what to say about what we are saying to you, trying to comfort you, but all the same we have a very true court, the court who can speak, the court who is not blind.  Even though we had problems we use to say to our people God can see what has happened to you, He can hear what is happening to you.  One day He as He did to the Israelites or to the children of Israel, he would come and lead us and release us and give us freedom.  It looked as if we were dreaming by that time and what we were saying was not true and we also said let us all know that we are not going to easily get what we need.  We are going to have to go through many troubles before most people are going to be sent to prisons, many are going to be killed and it is a very hurting thing to have two young people dying from your family and remaining with a cripple.  We all say to you we have God who takes care of everyone and He is the one who can heal us.  He is the very same one we are asking today to smooth your wounds.  I thank you.  I wish that He could be the one who would heal you, take care of your wounds with his Holy bandage.  We thank you.  We say you
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bore us heroes because today we are being looked at as people and we are proud of ourselves.  We thank you. 
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