Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-25

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes, may I throw my voice in with -in support for the venue to be at Kimberley.  We believe it is the obvious thing to do, but may we add one further issue.  It really doesn't concern us any longer because we have battled until we got hold of all the relevant documentation, but what we find disturbing, Mr Chairman, is that the other counsel here, even the counsel for the applicant, does not have in his possession which is going to be necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I have.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, well, as I have told you there are 271 pages which you may find will be relevant in hearing this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Visser, it would appear that you by implication are saying that your pre-trial conference was not a very successful event, and if that is so, may we suggest that when you do have another pre-trial conference and from the look of things I think it will be necessary for you to have another pre-trial conference, that we invite one of the members of the Committee that would be sitting for this particular hearing.

MR VISSER: Well, I hear what you say, Ms Khampepe. I wasn't suggesting that - to criticise the pre-trial conference. I am just pointing out that certain documentation has not been made available and we believe it should be made available.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Mpshe, you will take note of the various points that have been made. Those that are capable of being implemented without any difficulty should be implemented.  A courtesy notice should be sent to United Nations' representatives and there are monitoring proceedings in this country and other countries, and have an important role to play in that regard. So out of courtesy they should be notified.  On the question of the venue there just can't be any argument against that.
	Now as to a full set of documents, you will apply your mind to that and find out what you consider to be relevant and make all relevant documents available to whoever is going to constitute the Committee when it next meets to consider this application.  I am now not going to go into details as to what documents are relevant and not relevant at this stage, because it serves no purpose. It is something that you will apply your mind to and make sure that relevant documents are made available to all parties concerned.
	As far as Press statements made by Mr Matthews Phosa is concerned, I want to tell you that we don't take notice of Press statements by anybody. This Committee is concerned with evidence that we hear and evidence that is placed on oath before us.  We can't go around saying that we will subpoena Mr Matthews Phosa, without having any idea as to whether he has anything more than Press statements himself.  But Mr Mpshe will make enquiries in that regard and necessarily give notice to Mr Matthews Phosa that in this inquiry if he has relevant information, will he kindly make that information available to us and to all counsel and all other interested in these proceedings.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I will do that but I will wait for the Chairman to finish.  There are certain issues I want to comment on that have been said by my colleagues here.

CHAIRPERSON: These are not proceedings in accordance with the Rules of Court so you may just make the points as we go along.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, let me kick off with the last one that the Chair just mentioned of Mr Matthews Phosa, Mr Chairman.
	I do not want to be understood to be not keen to conduct Matthews Phosa, but I want to state that this has been done by my colleague, Prof De Koker, in writing to Matthews Phosa and nothing has come out of it. It is upon my advice to him that since you have written him these letters and nothing has come out of it, the only solution thereto will be a subpoena. I do not want to say to the Committee that I will stand contact him and still land in the same position as Mr De Koker has landed. I have copies of ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think that if he hasn't succeeded, nothing is lost by you making contact with him, just to make assurance doubly sure if Mr Phosa says he has nothing to give you, well, at least you will tell us that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will let the matter rest there.
	Mr Chairman, coming back to what the honourable Committee member has stated about ensuring that this matter comes on as soon as it is possible, I want to put this on record that it should be on record that Mr De Koker's mandate in as far as this person Cassandro is concerned, has now terminated, as he had put it clearly that he was only here on the point in limine, so he is no more his lawyer.  But, I have tried to contact him on the basis when he said that we should not be bound or we are not bound by the fact that he will here by the 1st or the 2nd of September, he can be made available if he is given due notice.  Now I indicated to Mr De Koker during the short break that we still have two weeks hearing in Bloemfontein; is it possible for him to be notified and to be here in Bloemfontein during those two weeks, upon which it was indicated that it is not possible.  So the matter won't come as soon as possible as the Committee would desire it will come up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I mean, when we say as soon as possible, you must take all the circumstances into account and an important consideration is that the sitting should take place in Kimberley.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the question of the sitting, with respect, will not be a problem. If he can be available in the next two weeks, we can arrange it.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to hear any further discussion about what was going to be a suitable date, please.  The Committee can make no sensible contribution in that regard. That's a matter which you must decide, taking into account all the factors that you are confronted with.  The word as soon as possible doesn't mean this week, next week, next month.  As soon as possible means as soon as reasonably possible to all parties concerned.  (Indistinct....) and Mr Cassandro is not available for a long time to come, it may well then be for us to proceed with this application, and for Mr Cassandro to submit whatever he has to submit by way of affidavit. You understand?  So Mr Mpshe, as soon as possible really means as soon as reasonably possible.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I take the point.
	Finally, Mr Chairman, on the issue of - this affects Adv Louis Visser, in as far as the implicated, alleged implicated persons are concerned.  He addressed the Committee and I wanted to clarify the Committee further on the question whether his clients are implicated or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I hear that at this stage, Mr Mpshe.  Just now you are going to submit arguments and he is going to reply and we are not dealing with the application now. We are adjourning this application.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, with respect, I am well aware that we are not dealing with the application, but I want a directive from the Committee for the future, Mr Chairman.  But if the Chair rules that it should not be discussed here, I will rest my case there, but I wanted it to be dealt with now for the future, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you can meet me in chambers today, tomorrow or at any other time, to discuss this as a matter of principle or as a matter of guidance on how you should proceed in the future.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then I rest my case, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, that brings to a conclusion the proceedings for today. We will now adjourn and we will resume tomorrow morning at 09:30.  Thank you.
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