Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  In any case and that Mr Mohape was taken into the veld and was seriously assaulted by these five persons I've mentioned.  Do you know anything about that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you make any arrangements or give any instructions that something like that should happen?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And we know that in 198 Mr Ngo was still at school.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is absolutely correct.

MR VISSER: Then Mr Ngo also applied for an incident on page 25, Capital Letter B in which he refers to the kidnapping of an IDF member which he initially refers to as Pape, he referred to him as JJ.  Do you know anything about this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: On page 27 of his application Mr Ngo also applied for assault and torture of comrades in Bloemfontein. This refers to a group, that is a group of 19 who were arrested in the Ladybrand district and were transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein.  Do you relate to which incident I'm referring to?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes, I know to what incident you are referring to.

MR VISSER: Can you tell the Committee what you know about this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I know that such an incident had taken place.  A group of people were arrested by the Defence Force.  I had nothing to do with their detention or interrogation.  At one stage during a weekend I did visit them as a service officer while they were being detained.  I assume it was much later than that incident, that was while they were being detained as.

MR VISSER: What were your duties during that stage when you were a service officer and when you visited them in the prison where they were detained?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I was still a member of the Security Branch at that stage.  I was in a different branch of the Security Police.  I was behind a desk and not operational.

MR VISSER: Who was your commanding officer at that stage?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: At that stage it was Lt Col Smit.

MR VISSER: You were not involved in the interrogation of these people in Fontein Street?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No I was not involved in this.

MR VISSER: Were you present while those people were being interrogated?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I was in the building yes but I did not visit them in their offices.  I was busy in my office in the same office building.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo on page 30, he says that you were one of the members who with Col - I'm sorry - that you were one of the members, who Col Coetzee and Stevenson  gave instructions to that these comrades should be assaulted or tortured, what would you say about that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not true Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What is the situation regarding Mr Stevenson?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman according to me he was transferred to Bloemfontein from Bethlehem, he came to Bloemfontein and I was under his command.

MR VISSER: While we are busy with this, during cross-examination, it was mentioned or suggested that when you people in Bloemfontein, the Security Branch, wanted to do something special, you got people from somewhere else to come and assist you.  For example Mr Modakile from the Theft Unit to come and assist you in whatever way.  Can you give us some information regarding this?  Did these things happen?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: The only people that I know of who were not part of the security police who had to come and work here, were people who were involved with special investigation, for example the investigative team was part of the Security Branch at that stage.   At the Security Branch a uniformed policeman was not easily used for this type of work.  I worked in the Western Transvaal but I worked as a member of the Security Branch.  I don't know of any such occasions as you're referring to.

MR VISSER: If it is then suggested that for example, you wanted to kidnap and assault Mr Mohape, that you would then get Security Branch members from other places because they would not know them, what would you say in connection with this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know anything about this, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: On page 34 Mr Ngo refers to an incident where a group of 40 to 45 pupils from the KGAWO the high school at Botsabelo, they were arrested during a raid.  We accept that it was in 1986 and we know that this group was taken to the Botsabelo Police Station where they were processed.  Do you have any knowledge of this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Were you involved in this incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And if Mr Ngo is then saying that you were personally and physically involved in the assault and torture of these people, what is your comment regarding that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He's not talking the truth Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Before we continue, Mr Motsamai told this Committee that he was a security policeman.  He told us that he was a Security Branch member in Bloemfontein, is that correct.  No he never was member of the security branch here.

MR VISSER: But it is so and you've already said that.  We're not going to expand on this, but he did come and give assistance here in the sense that you've already referred to?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that is correct Mr Visser, he gave assistance.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us when he gave this assistance?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: You will remember  that I've already provided that evidence.  That is we accept that it's from February 1986 up to June.  But let me lead this evidence.

MR VISSER: I can ask the witness himself.  At any stage did he, after he attended the police college, did he temporarily or for a day or two, did he come and do some jobs in Bloemfontein?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No he was stationed at Unit 19 only.

MR VISSER: Just to complete this point, after he joined the Security Branch after February as you've mentioned, did he leave Bloemfontein at a certain stage before he went to the police college?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Mr Chairman, I think he was transferred to Ladybrand just for a short while.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I want to refer you to an exhibit which was referred to you yesterday during evidence and this is a document on page 63.  If I remember correctly on page 63 of bundle B there is a letter, I'm not going to repeat everything because you've mentioned this yesterday, it is a letter the 18th of June 1986 page 63, and that is document which has your name.  I only have one copy unfortunately.  Mr Stander you have this document in front of you.  My learned friend Mr Stander will give you his copy. Can you just have a look at this document, I'm not going to waste time reading through all of it?   I've taken note of it's contents.  Please explain to us the style used in your correspondence.  What do the words mean, is this something you've written and what does this enquiry mean Lt Erasmus?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That refers to the person who has person knowledge of the enquiries and all enquiries should be addressed to him regarding this matter.

MR VISSER: Could we then make the inference here that you were instrumental in the request of a transfer for Mr Ngo to Ladybrand?  If you look at the following page, page 64, it's not easy to read, but this is a letter dated the 19th of June, 1986 and it appears that it is a letter from the Divisional Commissioner. To whom was this addressed?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It was addressed to the commanding officer and also to the district commander at Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: And what is the content of this letter?