Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: When I arrived at Nkosi Nqobo, I found a team that had been sent from Ulundi, it was headed by Nkosi Kaula.  There was also another hit squad, headed by Captain Hlengwa of the KwaZulu Police that we already found in the area.
	Therefore the trainees that I had gone with, were those belonging to the contra mobilisation.  Captain Hlengwa and Captain Kanyela who headed the BSI in KwaMashu were heads of the BSI of the KwaZulu Police.
	Therefore the relationship between myself and them, was not hidden.   When I found them at Nkosi Nqobo's house, I realised that there was a problem.  Nkosi Nqobo was under pressure, being questioned why his area was an UDF area.
	He was then asked to call a meeting.  This is the discussion that went on in Nkosi Nqobo's house where there were MP's from Ulundi, headed by Nkosi Kaula.
	I distinctly remember (indistinct) Ndlovu being there, (indistinct) Bengu was also there and others.  Therefore the inkozi was told to call a meeting of the community.  Those who did not attend the meeting, would have to leave the area and move to areas which were controlled by the comrades.
	I realised that the inkozi was in trouble because he was put in a situation where he didn't really belong in.  He was being forced to call a meeting.
	Those who didn't attend these meetings, would be killed by hit squad, the Hlengwa hit squad in the night.  In Mr Hlengwa's hit squad there was one Caprivi trainee, Bigboy Ndlovu who was born and bred in Pietermaritzburg.
	He would take the group - I remember it was one reported that there was a Counsellor who had refused to come to a meeting and he had made it known that he was an UDF member.  At that time, Hlengwa was asked if he understood what this Counsellor was saying.
	He then told his group to go with the induna to go attack this Counsellor.  They then did so in the night, and came to report the following morning that they had done so.
	I have forgotten the Councillor's name.

MR STUART: Did this group of Hlengwa attack, conduct other attacks as well?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: This was a very active group in Pietermaritzburg.

MR STUART: At that time when you were there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, at that time.

MR STUART: Were you involved in those attacks?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I was not.

MR STUART: What was your role when you were staying there at Nkosi Nqobo's place?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Because I had come with the contra mobilisation group, it was to accompany the Nkosi when he went to meetings in different districts.
	Then the contra mobilisation would educate the youth about Inkatha and at the same time, they will train the youth on how to protect themselves and in the handling of guns so that they could assist the Nkosi when we left.

MR STUART: Were Hlengwa's group involved in the seizing of cattle?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.  They would use the name Amaqabanyana to refer to this cattle.
	This referred to cattle that were seized from UDF areas.  They would collect this cattle and bring them to the Nkosi.  When we were at the Nkosi's house, we used to slaughter this cattle.

MR STUART: What was the political objective of such activity?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was to show the strength of the IFP in the area and to discourage people from joining the UDF, to encourage them to join the IFP.

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, I am going to take you back to Mpumalanga now in a later period, in the period when you were there in 1987, 1988.
	What was the situation there at that time between Inkatha on the one hand, and UDF/ANC on the other?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say the situation was bad, but the people who were involved in the violence at the time was Inkatha.

MR STUART: Were there some areas that were controlled by one grouping, and the other areas controlled by another grouping?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, there were areas that were controlled by the UDF and areas that were controlled by the IFP.  But the ones that were controlled by the IFP were very few.  The reason being that people were fleeing the area, fleeing the violence.
	They were choosing to become UDF members instead of joining the IFP which was involved in killing, kidnapping, rape, stealing, burning and the shooting of, killing of people in broad daylight.
	Those activities led to the fleeing of a lot of people from the area, to go and join the UDF.

MR STUART: What was your role when you returned there in 1987, 1988?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Firstly I was supposed to clean up in the IFP, to help them remove themselves from those activities.
	At Mpumalanga at the time, the UDF was not yet involved in bad activities that they were carrying out in other areas.  Therefore there was no reason for the IFP to react in the same manner that they would react to in other areas.
	Therefore my role was to try and regroup or rebuild the organisation.

MR STUART: There was a time when there was an attack on the house of Walter Ntalani.  Do you recall that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.   Mr Ntalani was one of the Caprivi trainees.

MR STUART: Was someone killed in that attack?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, his sister.

MR STUART: And who did you think perpetrated that attack?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was the UDF because they did this in broad daylight, then they were seen and identified.

MR STUART: What did you do about that attack?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I spoke to other Caprivi trainees who stayed near the area where Mr Ntalani's sister was killed, that they should go and retaliate urgently, because the people were known.
	One house was also mentioned.  Other houses belonging to UDF members, were also mentioned.  I remember Dan Molefe, Topia, Vivian Qobane, Ntalani, Zweli Dhlamini and other Caprivi trainees, Sibisi and one Qolo boy and others that I cannot recall correctly.

MR STUART: What did you do with them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I collected them one night so that they could attack the house that had been already mentioned.  A person who knew that house was Walter Ntalani.
	On our way to that house, we don't know what happened, but Dan Molefe - he actually fired the gun that he had with him.
	We were then not sure whether to proceed.

MR STUART: Just to clarify, there was a lull in the translation.  Were you saying that he accidentally fired the gun?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR STUART: And then what transpired?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We continued although we were conscious that the shots had already been heard.  When we arrived at the house, it was pointed out to us and the boys threw petrol bombs at the house.
	Some people came out of the house running, they were shot at, we don't know whether they were killed or not.  I then said that we should then proceed.  I left the matter with David Ndlamini, Sibisi Nqolo for them to proceed.
	They later told me that there were other houses that they attacked, although I don't have details of those attacks.

MR STUART: Were you, yourself, involved in other attacks in Mpumalanga at that period?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, there are many.

MR STUART: And they were in one way or the other, similar to the attack you have told us about?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR STUART: There came a time when you were arrested by Detective Warrant Officer Van Vuuren of the South African Police in Pietermaritzburg, do you recall that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR STUART: How did that come about?