Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

MR BRINK: Were you friendly with him?

DITINI THYIDO: He used to be my comrade in the struggle.

MR BRINK: Did you do things together, did you play sport together, were you friends in that sense?

DITINI THYIDO: There were a lot of activities that we used to be together in.

MR BRINK: Why didn't you go to him at his house with your other comrades to talk to him about the allegation that he was stealing the money?

DITINI THYIDO: We had discussed this issue initially, just before the accident with him.  Because Mr Mpisane at some stage he was once a leader, and as myself also as a leader, I was working under him, I was his subordinate because there were lots of things we were discussing concerning this money.

MR BRINK: Yes, but the point is you had every opportunity, you and your comrades, even if he was your superior, to go and talk to him about this money and find out exactly what the position was.

DITINI THYIDO: We discussed with Mr Mpisane and his group more than once, but on this particular day of the 29th our aim was not to talk to him, to discuss anything with him.

MR BRINK: No, I am not talking about the 29th, at any time before the 29th, could you and your comrades have gone to him and spoken to him?  It must have been a concern to you as money was being misused?

DITINI THYIDO: As I've already told you that we had more than four groups - it happened more than once.  We discussed the issue with him.

MR BRINK: And what did he say?

DITINI THYIDO: He used to respond, there was an agreement that the money was going to be used for the purposes of the organisation, but that never happened.

CHAIRPERSON: One question is, what did Mpisane say to your questions about the money, what did he say?

DITINI THYIDO: It will be difficult for me to note what he said, he was responding because we were asking as the constituents, we were asking them as the leader.  So it will be very difficult for me to say his actual response.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you there when it was discussed with him?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Why is it difficult to say how he responded, that is what he said?

DITINI THYIDO: As I am telling you Mr Chairperson, that I was not asking him about money, it was the Self Defence Unit, we were actually wanting to know the whereabouts of the money that was actually budgeted for the arms.  We didn't get his actual response because we were asking him as the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you are asking him as the leadership and the leadership wanted an answer.  My question is what was the answer?

DITINI THYIDO: The money that was budgeted we were actually talking about the budget of the money that was going to be used in the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Please let's not waste time.  I think you don't understand me.  Mpisane was suspected of having misused funds, is that right?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He was questioned about it?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to know what happened to the money, is that right?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What I am asking you is what explanation did he give, what did he say?

DITINI THYIDO: The only explanation that they gave, I cannot remember clearly but what I remember is that he agreed with us that the money was going to be used for the purpose that it was actually meant for initially.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Thyido, what was the purpose of going to Mr Mpisane, didn't you go there because he had misappropriated funds and that was the basis of your enquiry, the misappropriation of funds and not the budget for the buying of ammunition?

DITINI THYIDO: As I've already stated, initially we discussed about this money, but on the 29th we didn't go there for the money, but we actually wanted to get him and talk to him, but if we couldn't get him, there was nothing we could do at this stage.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't think Mr Brink was specifically referring to the 29th, he was referring to the meeting that you had initially held with Mr Mpisane where you made enquiries about his misappropriation of funds.  We are not referring to the 29th of August as yet.
	Did you or did you not have that meeting with Mr Mpisane before the 29th of August?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I wanted a meeting with him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And at that meeting, did you discuss with him about the alleged misappropriation of funds?

DITINI THYIDO: What we discussed is that we still need to sort out the problems that we had with our leadership, that included the maladministration of funds.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what was his response, that is what we are seeking to get from you?  What did he respond to the allegation of misappropriation of funds?

DITINI THYIDO: What I remember is that he is the one who said that we still have to discuss this issue.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: It must have been a great concern to you to have heard that Bongi was using money for his own purposes?

DITINI THYIDO: Can you please repeat the question sir?

MR BRINK: It must have been of great concern to you and indeed your comrades, to learn that Bongi was stealing money?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: And you and your comrades must have discussed this matter because it was a very serious matter?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: People have been volunteering to give money to buy ammunition and arms.

DITINI THYIDO: That is right.

MR BRINK: Bongi is one of your leaders who apparently is putting that money in his own pocket?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: I come back to my question, I am sorry to labour it, did you not go and see Bongi with your comrades to discuss specifically the fact that he was stealing money which had been given to the organisation by the residents?

DITINI THYIDO: At some stage we discussed this issue.

MR BRINK: With him, Bongi?

DITINI THYIDO: It was Bongi and the others, and his co-accused.

MR BRINK: And you?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir.

MR BRINK: Where did this meeting take place?

DITINI THYIDO: It was in one of the local schools called Sosovenza.  It was at Site B.

MR BRINK: How many people were there altogether, do you remember?

DITINI THYIDO: I can still remember there was a lot of people, but they were acting on the leadership level and the other members who were from the Regional ANC organisation.

MR BRINK: So a direct accusation was  put to him then that he was stealing money?

DITINI THYIDO: He was accused with his constituents, the people who were also responsible for collecting the money.

MR BRINK: Yes, but he with others were accused of stealing money?

DITINI THYIDO: It was not clear how they used this money, so we were expecting them to explain the whereabouts of the money.

MR BRINK: What explanation then was given?

DITINI THYIDO: What I can still remember is that the money was still in the office, but we were asking where is the money, those were the questions that we were posing to him, where actually is the money?
	They said they were still looking for the places where they could buy the ammunition and the procedure that would be followed when buying that ammunition.

MR BRINK: Mr Thyido, my question was when he said the money was in the office, what did you say to him, what did you ask him?  Not concerned about what was going to happen to any further monies which came in, I am concerned about the money which it was said that he had stolen.