Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR RICHARD: Sorry
"... is it correct ...", do you have that quote?

MR BERGER: And it is the second page 132, there are two page 132's.  There is page 132 in-chief and then the numbering starts again.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got that now, so it is the second page 132.  I think if you could just read it from the beginning again, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  The question put by Mr Trengove was
"... is it correct that the ANC policy was never to select targets whose sole objective was to strike at civilians?"
	And your answer Mr Ismail was -
"... yes, that is correct."
	My question is whether you would like to add anything to that answer or amplify it or confirm it?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I confirm it Mr Chairperson.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  The next question put went
"... it is also correct that when cadres departed from the ANC policy as did happen, the ANC acted to reassert control",
	then your answer at that hearing was -
"... that is so, especially with reference to what Adv Visser had talked of with the Wimpy Bars or whatever, that at that point, when the NEC felt that it was going in the wrong direction, they immediately instructed all of the Military Headquarters to go out immediately and deal with the matter."
	My question is the same, anything to add or subtract or simply confirm?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I confirm Mr Chairperson.

MR RICHARD: Now, I do not intend to reopen the Wimpy Bars debate, that was sufficiently canvassed at that hearing, but in relation to car bombs, was there ever any discussion at NEC level or any instruction given to the various Military Headquarters?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chair, if the question is was there any problem with regards to car bombs and the targets chosen, there were no problems with that, not that I know of.

MR RICHARD: And the second part of that question, simply to put it into the record, were there or were there not any instructions given regarding car bombs?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Are you talking now broadly, about all car bombs, about whether we should use car bombs or not, or are you talking about problems that may have arisen out of it, I am just trying to...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Richard, also if you could perhaps just make it clear, instructions from what level to what level as well?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, to clarify, in your answer to Mr Trengove's question, reference was made to Wimpy Bars.  I don't intend going into the Wimpy Bar story, it is traversed in this bundle.   Now as there were instructions from the NEC concerning Wimpy Bars and limpet mines, when they instructed all of the Military Headquarters, my question then is was there or was there not an analogist or similar instruction ever concerning car bombs?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, there was no analogist instruction with regards to car bombs.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.   Now, before I put a photograph before you to describe and tell us about, can I ask you what is your knowledge of explosive devices?  Do you have knowledge?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I do.  I in fact was an Instructor in the use of explosives.

MR RICHARD: I hand you five pictures, numbered 72, 73, 74, 75 and 76.  I will describe what they are after walking across.  Those photographs were exhibits in a trial of Mr McBride and were items allegedly found in one or other of the Dead Letter Boxes or caches.   My interest in them is to hear from you what they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they all the same or are they different?

MR RICHARD: Regrettably I haven't had a chance yet to make copies.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can deal with them by number Mr Ismail, starting with number 72, through to 76 and then just say what it is, whether it is a limpet mine or whatever, or handgrenade, or whatever it is.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson ...

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I just interject at this point, I am being corrected by my client in so far as the reference to these photographs as being exhibits in the trial are concerned, I am told and it would appear correct, I remember this trial occurred more than, I think in the year 1986, so I cannot remember each and every detail, but that the bundle consisting of that Leverarch file which Mr Richard has, was used in the trial, but not every photograph was handed in as an exhibit, so that these photographs may in all probability not be exhibits per se.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you accept that Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I accept that.  As I have explained ...

CHAIRPERSON: We will just regard them as photographs, where they were used in the past, etc, is of no consequence.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, with regards to Exhibit 72, that looks like a photograph of the extended charges, two of them.  I believe if my memory serves me right, they were the SZ6 charges which are at the bottom and the one at the top, is a square mine, also high explosive, which is I think an SZ3.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, well, it is not a mine as such, it is an explosive that has been encased.

CHAIRPERSON: In a square casing?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Square casing.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is an SZ6?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: SZ3, I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Something like that, yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: The rectangular charge.  The lower one, Exhibit 73 is a close up of that and showing the hole ...

JUDGE PILLAY: Of what was that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: At this point?

JUDGE PILLAY: Of the rectangular?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Of the rectangular mine, it is showing the point where a detonator is fitted in.  Again, it is a close up of that, of the SZ6 at the bottom and I believe they are connected by a wire or it looks like something just to keep the two mines together.  Exhibit 74 basically on the one side shows the SZ6 mine and on the other side, the rectangular charge with the underside and I don't know whether this is just scrapings of paint or - that came off the charge, and it's got the markings in Russian on the side here.

CHAIRPERSON: It is basically the same mine, the same square...

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If we call it the square mine?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.  Exhibit 75 would be the two SZ6 mines, the ends of it, showing the end at which the fuse, a fuse can be inserted on the other side, where a detonator can be inserted and at the bottom there, it would be a handgrenade fuse.  That is 75.   Mr Chairperson, Exhibit 76 which is a black and white photograph, basically shows two mines, again linked together, the SZ6 mines, long ones, with the rectangular charge on top of them, and then a handgrenade in front of it.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  And the square explosive device or mine, what would that be used for?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It is basically a charge, it can be used under varying circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be used as a mine as such, would it send off shrapnel?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And kill people if it went off in their presence?  It wouldn't be used as a mine like a limpet mine?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, no, it is not, in fact it might be closer to a limpet mine, because it is a charge, which is simply encased in a box.  It is not a mine as in a landmine in the ordinary sense that if you step on it, it would go off, or in the case of an anti-tank mine, if a heavy vehicle went over it, it would then be set off.  It is basically just explosives that are packed in and for ease of use, it has the holes in it, etc, so that people then don't have to handle ordinary explosives, but it is an explosive that is encased.  All of these are encased explosives.   The one point I think that we should just take note of, is that all grenades, landmines, etc, all of those things, do have a shrapnel affect.  In fact if you took an F1 grenade, the bulk of it is the metal part around it, and you know, you have a small core of high explosives inside of it.  When it explodes on the inside, it will send out shrapnel.