Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

MR GOOSEN: I am not going to take it any further, simply to put it to you that on the basis of the positions adopted in respect of the legitimacy of targeting White civilians, that by typifying White civilians in the manner in which you did, carte blanche, you would have violated international law in respect of that.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: I think to clarify, you, that the vocabulary of Apla and the PAC is that of the, we use to refer to as, European settlers and the African oppressed majority.  If people want to make it a racial, racist issue, it is up to them, but, basically, it was the question of the liberation of the African oppressed against or from the European minority regime.  Do you want to contribute on that.

LEKLAPA: Thank you.  I think this point must be made clear once and for all.  We did not attack White civilians, but we destroyed European invaders, dispossessors, criminals, because here you want to create a situation whereby our struggle is as recent as the PAC and that is not the case.  Our struggle against colonialism is as old as when the colonialists set their foot here and showed their sinister motives of dispossessing our forefathers of the land and the whole struggle, the whole armed struggle was the continuation of that.  Actually, we can draw the ancient wisdom from our forefathers when Dingaan said to the Zulu warriors (not translated).  What did he mean?  He meant that those dispossessors (not translated), the Zulu warriors did not ask among themselves who were the abatagati, who were the wizards, but they knew who the wizards were and they were Whites.
 When Moshweshwe, King Moshweshwe of Basuto, in his wisdom, said (not translated) meaning that the Whites will always have solidarity in oppressing the Africans.  He drew that from experience, from the practical experience that was going on and, I dare say, that the TRC is more concerned with the White life, because even the questions are being feted by a man who benefitted hugely from the dispossession of our people, because, as far as I am concerned, he who benefits by crime is guilty of that crime and every White person in this country benefitted from the crime of dispossession, benefitted from the crime of colonialism, benefitted from the crime of apartheid, but now you want to extract yourself from this crime and it is so displeasing that the grandsons and daughters of Moshweshwe, of Chaka, of Sekukuene are now bearing the burden of their abusers, because you are the abusers and you cannot deny that.  
 Because I have been waiting, let me just fire all my salvos so that I do not have problem at the end of the day.  Now, I am standing here or seated here as someone who has been abducted from his sovereign country, that is Lesotho, and I have got documentations here which authenticate my case and that, as far as I am concerned, is an international thuggery and let me read it to you.  It is from Ministry of Home Affairs, Local Government, Rural Act - no, no, this is very relevant, because the TRC classifies abduction as a gross violation of human rights, but you should know today that you have an abductee in front of you.  You have called an abductee from another country and a comparison has to be made, because we have Katiza, on one hand, who is in a kingdom, a White owned kingdom, that is England, and you had me in exile, who was in an African old kingdom, that is Lesotho, but I was abducted, because of the perpetuation of White supremacy.  Now, I, this should be clear that I appear before you as someone who has been subpoenaed under protest that you have violated your own rules.  You said abduction is a violation of human rights, but you have me abducted from Lesotho, come and testify before you.  
 Secondly, we have made it, Comrade (indistinct) and Comrade (indistinct) have written to the TRC Chairperson to tell them that Apla documents have been stolen in Umthata and Maseru and that makes it very difficult for Apla applicants to furnish you with sufficient information that you are hunting for.  It is a fact that those documents would have made a difference in the applications of the cadres and nothing is said about that and, thirdly, because the TRC has been running, you know, skirmishes with me over my non-appearance before the TRC, let me make it clear that I am not going to appear before TRC on cases involving Apla cadres as a person who has given an order until de Klerk, F W Botha, Malan and Viljoen and company appear and own up the evil deeds of South African Defence Force across the countries and inside the country.
 And the TRC is all out to criminalise our struggle.  For instance, the most successful urban campaigns, military campaigns in South Africa, perhaps in the whole African country were carried out by Apla cadres using scorpion machine guns.  Those Apla cadres have applied for amnesty and one of them is Mishak Bhengu and had his amnesty application turned out, because the Act, according to the TRC, was criminal and for self-enrichment and that is a clear distortion of history.  If attacking the South African Defence Force personnel is criminal, then which thing could be political?  So, now, the TRC must desist from criminalising our struggle and not only Comrade Shadrack Bhengu, also Comrade Fichler, Colonel Fichler here, had his amnesty application turned down because, according to the TRC, what he did was not for political gain.  The whole, military intelligence director, someone who had acted as a chief representative in Zimbabwe, this is a clear criminalisation of our struggle.  
 Thirdly, we have got George Nongabe and Daniel Rogers, during the lunch I retrieved messages from my (indistinct) link saying the TRC has turned down the applications of these two comrades.  Now, if you are a commander, like myself, a Director of Operations, you lead to people to war.  Applicant after applicant is declared to be a criminal.  That is one way of saying you are a criminal yourself, because you have been a commander of criminals. 
 Now, fifthly is the question of truth.  You have got so beautiful rosy definition or motto, truth, the road to reconciliation, but this is just a holy declaration.  The TRC does not encourage people to speak truth.  If it ever encouraged people to speak truth, we would not have people like Siphiwo Bolo, for instance, the (indistinct) of people who are now serving in Pretoria Central, being behind bars. We would not have people like myself who has been charged of something that he has never done, because when I was kidnapped from Lesotho I had no possessions of machine guns, of explosives, of ammunition, but that is what I am charged of.  Then for me to get out of the hook of the law, I must lie to the TRC and say I did it and this is the sufficient details.  
 Now, all in all, the TRC does not encourage people to speak truth and, I dare say, this whole farce, this whole circus is doomed for failure, is doomed for failure for obvious reasons, because you cannot reconcile the dispossessed and the dispossessor, you cannot reconcile the oppressor and the oppressed and the fact of the matter is that the Whites are still firmly in power, the Whites are still calling shots and, lastly, to show you that the Whites are calling shots here - just pick this thing for me please - here you have returned L H Mphahlele.  Well, I did not want to kick dust over this.  I know L means Leklapa, I do not know what H means.  Can anyone of the TRC tells me, I mean, tell me what H means or should I keep on guessing that H stands for something?  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr, sorry.  I think going back to ... (intervention).

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Thank you very much, Mr ... ... (intervention).