Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR COETZEE: Chairperson, indeed it might be hearsay evidence, but these are aspects which came to Mr Barnard's attention which he would like to disclose.
	It is brief.  There are two incidents that he wants to refer to.  There isn't anything that will take much longer, but there is much evidence to follow.  In the scheme of things, it is a very minor aspect of his evidence, and I will ask him to refer to it very briefly, if the Committee would allow me to do so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may we be permitted to make a submission with regard to the objection?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: There is a difference between hearsay evidence and statements made in furtherance of a conspiracy during the course of the conspiracy, when the evidence is admissible in order to prove the nature and objectives of the conspiracy that we are dealing with here.
	We do not agree that this is hearsay evidence and that it is inadmissible, although we would associate ourselves with your remarks that they should possibly be bridged, for the sake of saving time, but most certainly anything that is said in the furtherance of the conspiracy during the course of the conspiracy, is admissible.  There is very clear authority in the Appellate Division and other decisions to that effect, Mr Chairman.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, we had this argument on the first day of the proceedings, the Act is very clear on that.  The Act says there is a certain procedure to be followed, that all relevant information is to be supplied in regard to that act for which amnesty is being applied for.
	This is an abuse of the process that is set up by the Act.  My objection remains.

CHAIRPERSON: We will allow it to continue, but if it can be as brief as possible, the questions, the matters that he has heard from other people.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, would you refer to it very briefly without going into unnecessary detail?  Could you just tell us what you heard?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes Chairperson, in essence Mr le Roux said to me in a nutshell that there was a project where poisonous snakes were purchased in South Africa, in the Northern Transvaal, that they were placed in a specially manufactured cage, in a carrier bag with a mechanism which, when activated, would make the bottom of the case drop out.  An unknown agent was recruited in Namibia, who would then attend a large meeting of SWAPO members, which would be addressed by former exiles.  This person would have caused a stampede among the people present, by activating this cage.  If people were bitten by the snakes, then it would be as such, but the idea was to get people to trample each other to death during such a stampede.
	Whether this really took place, whether the plan was ever implemented, I don't know.  Furthermore he told me of the sabotage of vehicles, that a project was to be launched which would disrupt SWAPO's logistical structure, which would involve taxi's, which transported people to the major centres such as Keetmanshoop and Swakopmund.
	There were mixtures of liquid which were manufactured to get the vehicles to stall.  Experiments were conducted with gas cans which would be placed in the exhaust systems of the cars as well as causing an explosion in the silencer systems of the cars.  Then there were also persons in SWAPO who were targeted, for their vehicles to be burnt out so as to discourage other white people from becoming members of SWAPO.
	I thought that the second scenario was a complete waste of time, and I said so, but this was what was conveyed to me.  Then with regard to the Hamutenya incident, there were no developments.  As I have already told you, later I flew back to Pretoria so that I could be further informed regarding Namibia, but this never took place.  
	Then there was the Mati Attasari incident, in which I was personally involved in South-West.  Mr Mati Attasari was the same person who along with Cyril Ramaphosa visited the stockpile locations.  He was the Chief Representative of the United Nations, UNTAG in Namibia at that stage.
	Kobus le Roux came to see me one evening in the hotel and told me that there was something else that had to be done, that he had been tasked about this, and he used words to the effect that "Mati Attasari had to be fucked up good and well."  He asked whether I would be prepared to do so.  He was not supposed to be killed, but he had to receive a good hiding.
	He asked whether there was any information available and I was told that the CCB had information available that Attasari on the following evening, would be at the Keetmanshoop Hotel attending a meeting, or addressing a meeting, I am not certain which one of the two.  There were two vehicle registration numbers and two descriptions.  One was a sedan vehicle, and the other was a United Nations UNTAG kombi.
	They said that he didn't move with bodyguards, but that he did have a driver and that the meeting at the hotel would  commence at approximately eight o'clock that evening.  I discussed the matter with him somewhat, he would assist me with regard to the getaway vehicle.  I thought of taking a baseball bat, we drove to the premises to reconnoitre it, and there was a regular flow of pedestrian traffic in and out of the hotel.  It did not lend itself to the use of a baseball bat.
	We had to figure out what to take, which would injure the person without killing him.   I foresaw that once I saw him, I would run into him and simply do him in.  What then took place was that I suggested to Mr le Roux that I suggested to Mr le Roux that he buy me an iron saw because the grip handle was a very good knuckle buster, one could make a good knuckle buster out of such a handle.
	I knew this due to my movements in and around the Johannesburg night-clubs and because with the gangster wars in the earlier years, and that was a favourite weapon and I was also involved in this whole set-up with this people at that stage.
	I knew what sort of damage such a weapon could cause and I knew that it also offered absolute protection to one's hands in case of injury or cuts or bruises.  It was also the kind of thing that one could conceal in a pocket and then bring out at the last instant.
	However, there was always the possibility especially if one was attacking somebody who was older than oneself, and also smaller than oneself.  I knew what he looked like, I had seen pictures of him in the media, they had given me a photo of him as well.  If one were to hit him and hit him in the wrong place, one could kill him.  I said this to Mr le Roux, and I said "there are no guarantees with the job.   I am going to try, I will try to hit him on his body and attack his limbs and make a quick getaway".
	We had a 4 x 4 vehicle with false number plates, which we were going to use as the getaway vehicle.  We went to reconnoitre the place, we bought two iron saws.   One for me to use the handle of, and I thought that we should take the other so that I could modify it to a certain pro forma, but it was fine just the way it was.  Then we departed to execute the project.
	Attasari did not arrive.  We waited the whole evening, until approximately 23H00 that evening, when we withdrew.  The following day he came to me, that is Mr le Roux, and he said that the order was quite serious, that we were on standby, that they were trying to obtain further information regarding where Mr Attasari would be next, but it never materialised.

MR COETZEE: Very well.  Was there any other involvement in which you yourself were involved, externally?