Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So sometimes you found that they were jealous, they inflict diseases on other people, they are causing death to other people.  They were crippling people somehow, so they felt that before we get this freedom we are talking about, we must be free of ills amongst us, that's why we said that those witches have to be eliminated before we get that freedom because it is no use getting freedom with obstacles on our doorsteps.

MR NDOU: Now how did you come across the deceased?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The time when we cam across the deceased was the time when we were coming from one such rally in Thohoyandou.  It was at about, round  half past 5 to 6.  We were gathered at the school soccer ground at the time.  We were about to address the people who stayed behind, of how ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Yes please, you should go slower because I've got to write down what you're saying, and if I can't write it down I can't remember what you were saying, so it's very important that we write down what you're saying.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I'm sorry.

ADV DE JAGER: You started off by saying that you came across the deceased while you had a meeting or a rally at a school.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We were coming from a rally.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So during that time we were chanting freedom songs.  So then we heard a voice shouting.  The voice was shouting "who are you, who's there?"  So after that we stood still, no one was chanting.  We were expecting that voice to come forward.  Then after a time we heard that the voice was not coming nearer and that made us wonder who can be this person who is shouting at us and then failed to show himself or herself.  Then we heard the voice again.  The voice was saying "Are you the comrades?  What do you think you're going to come up with in my place?  In my place I don't have freedom fighters, I don't have comrades and I don't like comrades at all."  Then we realised that the voice belonged to Mr Edward Mahvunga.  So, he wanted to know what was the real reason why we converged at the soccer ground at the time.

MR NDOU: Did he come to you?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No, he was not close to us, he was on the footpath.  And then we told him we are chanting because we are happy.  The big man has been released.  By the big man I am referring to Mr Nelson Mandela.  Then he asked us "Who is this Mandela?"  and then we tried to elaborate to him who is he.  Then he told us it is his first time to hear such name being announced in his place, so he don't appreciate hearing such things because he is not a politician, he is not a comrade.  We just gave him a passing glance and thought that maybe he is disturbed.  The next day when we held another meeting again, he came back again saying "Oh, it's that meeting again" so we told him what we are doing does not concern him, then he said "I think I'll be hearing for the last time, because I don't appreciate the idea of comrades chanting when we are asleep".

ADV DE JAGER: What time of the day or night was it?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It was about half past 6, 7 in the evening.
And again he was dismissed as someone who was not in full command of his senses but then he said he is going to take major steps to see that these things, it is going to be put in hand, the thing of our chanting all around the village.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he tell you he's going to take steps?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.  Then, when we were about to hold the third meeting,

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It was three or four days after that meeting, we thought of holding that meeting I'm talking about now, the third one, on a mountain so that maybe it will be safer or maybe he won't hear us chanting on the mountain.

ADV SIGODI: Why did it worry you that he should not hear you chanting?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I beg your pardon?

ADV SIGODI: Why did it worry you that he should not hear you chanting?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I don't know what he was worried about because we tried to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, why did you worry about him?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The problem was one, he was the one who was concerned about our chanting and all those meetings that were taking place in our village.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but the question is, why did you deem it necessary to move and actually hold a meeting on the mountain in order to get away from him.  Why was it necessary?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We thought, maybe, because he is the one who is pestering us with his questions and all the likes, we have to give him room, if he wants to be the boss of this village, then we have to leave him in the village, then we must go on the mountain and there we will have to hold our meetings.

ADV SIGODI: But you were asked several times what was his position in the community and you said he was a commoner.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, he was just a commoner.

ADV SIGODI: So why was it necessary to go away from him?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: In fact he was an aggressive someone, because he used to have some confrontation with the headman also.  People were not in favour of him as such because he was having negative attitudes towards everything the village agreed upon.

ADV SIGODI: But where would you hold these meetings I mean where he would hear you?  Was it not at the stadium.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No, it was in the soccer field at home.

CHAIRPERSON: He wouldn't hear you from the soccer field?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It's not far from his place.

CHAIRPERSON: What the question is directed at is, why were you scared of him, what was so special about him?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We were afraid of the major steps he had promised us that he was going to take.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think he was capable of doing that?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We used to know him because he was an aggressive person and we knew whenever he said something, he meant it, so we didn't take chances.

MR NDOU: And how did he himself perceive himself to be amongst the people of Mahvunga?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: There was a saying that, he used to say that he has been robbed of the chieftainship, he should have been the headman in fact.

MR NDOU: So what you are saying is that he regarded himself as the headman of the area?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, that's why he was trying to tell us no, I don't want to hear you chanting all around here because it makes me angry whenever I hear comrades chanting and all the likes, because we know the headman himself he was tolerant to what we were doing, but he himself was against us so we were surprised.

MR NDOU: Let's take it very slowly.  It's very important that the Committee understands exactly what you are saying.  Now as I understood your evidence, the headman works in Johannesburg, is that correct?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.

MR NDOU: The real headman?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: That's what you have told the Committee.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry who was he?

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the headman?

MR NDOU: Oh, he mentioned his name, Adam Mahvunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Adam?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, they had a common uncle.

MR NDOU: Yes.  So when Adam Mahvunga is in Johannesburg, Edward perceived himself to be the leader in the area, is that correct?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, I think I have to object to that question, I don't think that was what the evidence was.  The evidence was that he would have liked to have seen himself as the headman.  That was the evidence.

MR NDOU: Yes, that's why I say he perceived.  I think the word perceives, it makes a great difference there.  He perceived himself to be the leader of the people in the area.  I didn't say that he was the leader, I said he perceived.