Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR VAN DEN BERG: During '86 several groups of youth were arrested and detained.

MR VISSER: If I merely say to you reference is made to an incident where 40 to 45 people were arrested, would you due to those facts be able to identify an incident in your mind?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No.

MR VISSER: Is that because it occurred quite often?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, he must stop leading the witness.  He must not suggest, he's not cross-examining this witness, he must not suggest the answer to the witness.

MR VISSER: Mr van den Berg, you said that you cannot identify this specific incident, we'll leave it there.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you assist me, wasn't it scholars from a certain school?

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you for reminding me

ADV DE JAGER: It may be that Mr Memani will follow this up.  I think he objects to you mentioning the name of the school.

MR VISSER: Can I just mention it, perhaps he does not object. On page 31 reference is made to students of a K-g-a-u-w-o high school who were arrested, does that ring a bell?

MR VAN DEN BERG: There was unrest, that was amongst others others one of the schools where there was unrest, and it is apparently of those students that were arrested.

MR VISSER: However it may be, can you just tell the Committee members that when such a raid was made while you were at Botshabello how were these people dealt with and processed and where did it take place?  Can you just sketch us a picture of how such a typical raid and further processing would have been done.
	If you will just keep in mind that what you are saying is being interpreted so if you could just wait a little while and break your sentences so that interpretation can be done.

MR VAN DEN BERG: At that stage the people were detained in terms of Section 50 of the Internal Security Act after the state of emergency was announced they were detained because there was unrest. Such action took place as a result of the information we had where people were identified as culprits or and they were responsible for the unrest.
	Lists were made available to people who assisted us in arresting these people, then they were either taken to back of the charge office but in most cases it was done in an open space between the cells and the police station, it was done there.

MR VISSER: If you say an open area or space, what do you mean by that?

MR VAN DEN BERG: A section between the charge office and the cells which is closed on the one side by a wall but on the front of the police station there is a safety or security gate, a trellis gate .

MR VISSER: So members of the public who moved towards the charge office, would they be able to see into this courtyard or whatever you want to call it. Would they be able to see into it?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct, if one looked through the trellis work one could see the whole courtyard.

MR VISSER: Regarding this group once again, when you became aware that you were being implicated in this incident, did you do any thing in order to try to establish exactly which incident is being referred to?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

MR VISSER: What did you do?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Somebody at Botshabelo, Sergeant Matina, I phoned him and asked him to look at or to establish at the charge office whether the warrants were still available, were there detention warrants at that stage.
	Whether these specific warrants which were filed with the normal warrants, whether they were still available and he informed me that as a result of a routine destruction these things were no longer available.

MR VISSER: On page 35, it is being stated by Mr Ngo that the members of the security police, as he called them, and the unrest unit who took part in the assault of on these persons who we are referring to were among others Captain Tsomela and then mention is made of Warrant Officer van der Berg, Warrant Officer Mbanjani	Mbanjani and then Katlake Sergeant Smith, Thulo, Sesedinyane and Lesale.
	Now speaking for yourself, did you assault people there at any stage people who were arrested and processed?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No.

MR VISSER: Would you have seen any need in assaulting anybody?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No.

MR VISSER: If I may suggest it to you, did you not want to obtain information from these people whom you detained?

MR VAN DEN BERG: The people were detained preventatively as a result of the unrest situation.  We already that they were responsible for the unrest and we did not necessarily require any further information from them.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	  Captain van der Berg, were you aware that Mr Ngo was transferred to Pretoria for training?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No, I did not know Constable Ngo.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: I have no questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: You've told us that Sergeant Kotze worked at Botshabelo with you isn't it?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't catch the name?

ADV MEMANI: Kotze.
	And do you recall that at some stage he used to drive a four by four Datsun vehicle?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.  Sergeant Kotze during the course of 1986 he was transferred to Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: And you've told us that you looked for the warrants of detentions when you tried to recollect the incident in which Mr Ngo implicates you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Did you make enquiries about the occurrence books?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I asked sergeant Matinya to check all existing documentation and he gave me the assurance that the documentation of that time no longer existed.

ADV MEMANI: Did you ask him to look for the cell register?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct, I asked him to look at any documentation which could give us an indication as to who had been detained and when.

ADV MEMANI: Did you specifically ask him to go and have a look for the OB of the time?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I asked him to go to the station commander and to look if there was any documentation such as the warrants and the occurrence books to determine who was detained and when and he reported back to me and said that they no longer existed.

ADV MEMANI: Now that having failed, did you ask any of the persons who were implicated whether they could recollect the incident which Mr Ngo might be referring to?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I did not ask them.

ADV MEMANI: Those those are my questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't ask the then station commander of that particular police station who is Deputy Commissioner Tsomela ?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I did not ask Commissioner Tsomela about this.

ADV DE JAGER: Sergeant Kotze, or whatever his rank was, how long was he there in Botshabelo?

MR VAN DEN BERG: From 1986 probably for three or four years, three years, I'm not quite sure.

ADV DE JAGER: You don't know whether he was still there in 1989 or '90?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I don't believe that he was still there.  1989?  I'm speaking under correction I'm not sure but I don't think that he is still was still there.  I think that he had already been transferred back to Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER