Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: That is not what he said, somebody else was busy closing his shop.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just determine exactly.  You said yesterday that somebody had placed books in the vehicle.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: This is the man I was talking about who ran away.  There were three people originally, Mlangeni and Msibi are the victims.  I don't, I have not spoken much about the third person, because that person ran away.
	According to my knowledge, I did not shoot that person.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well.  But that wasn't very clear yesterday from your evidence, you didn't testify in the same way as what you are testifying today.
	Evidently you have studied your statements again.  Let's take it step for step.  You said that one person was placing those books in the vehicle.  Where was Mr Msibi at that stage?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He was in the front of the car sitting, the driver's seat, his door was open.

MS VAN DER WALT: And at that stage, the other person was placing the books in the back of the vehicle?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.  That is when I got out from my place of hiding to go towards the car.  That is when I also shot at Msibi and he made himself fall on the ground and he went underneath the car.
	When I was shooting, this man had a till and he was closing the doors.  He had a hand underneath the till.  As a soldier I thought that he had a gun and he was preparing to shoot me, that is why I shot at the person.
	I then went back to shoot Msibi to make sure that he was dead.  I then instructed Hlaza to go and get the till, and after that we ran off.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, you are trying to hide behind the excuse that you don't always understand everything so well, but I think that you realised yesterday exactly what cross-examination is aimed at.
	In Exhibit A and in the statements in Volume 1 on page 36 and 37, and also not in your evidence yesterday, did you say that the person who came out of the shop with the till, had his hand underneath the till and that you thought that he was going to shoot you.
	Why didn't you say that with any of these opportunities, why only today?

MR BLACK: No, I must object to this.  He definitely said so yesterday, most definitely.  I must also object, my learned friend can speculate as much as she wants to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can anybody else help us as to whether that was said or not?  I hold an independent recollection on it.

MR PATEL: May it please the Committee.  I recall that the witness had testified about that, the hand underneath the till, thought it was a gun and shot at him.  As it pleases the Committee.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I had a special interest in this particular point of evidence, he definitely stated that he was afraid that he was going to be shot at.  That he did say yesterday.
	I cannot recall at all that he mentioned a pistol or a hand underneath a till.  It is possible that he might have said so, but I don't recall it, but he did say that he was afraid.

MR HATTINGH: To be honest sir, unfortunately I cannot recall.

MR MAPOMA: I have a brief note
"He had a till in his hands, I thought he was armed.  The till fell down"
That is the note I have.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, you also did not mention yesterday that the third person ran away?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: If it is so, then that was a mistake, but I am telling you what happened because I was there.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mrs Van der Walt, I think he did mention something yesterday about someone running away from the scene, but I am not sure whether he said it was the second or the third person, because today he seems to be too specific about having a second and a third person on the scene.
	But does anything turn on the issue anyway?

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect yes, because I wanted to question him and I will refer you to the exact place in his statement, where he states that Themba ran away and that he then shot him.  That is why he is prepared today and yesterday with his evidence, because if that was the case, his order was to shoot Mr Msibi, why would he then shoot an innocent person who was running away?
	Because then he could not receive amnesty for that case that wasn't part of his order, it wasn't a question of cross-fire, but I would like to tell you exactly what he said if you could just grant me a moment.
	On page 37, paragraph 16 - Mlangeni tried to run away and I shot him.  He died immediately.  Nothing about what he thought, but you must remember now, according to this statement the till wasn't outside.  He first went into the shop to get it.

CHAIRPERSON: The fact that he shot Mr Mlangeni under certain circumstances, what has that got to do with the application for amnesty concerning Mr Msibi?

MS VAN DER WALT: Well, I would like to argue that it is one act that was - and he is asking for amnesty for both incidents.  I do not think that you could separate them.
	Surely at the end of the day, I could address you concerning this act.  I haven't got, or received any instructions from any of the next of king of Mr Mlangeni, and I would like to indicate his actions to you.
	But if I can then continue, I do not know if you are finished, thank you.
	You see sir, I would like to put it to you that you once again are trying to colour in your evidence to suit what was already put to you.
	I would like to continue, you also say and I would like to refer you to paragraph 16, page 37.  You already said that you were not inside the liquor store to look for weapons.  It was a mistake, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you continue with this paragraph, it is also a mistake because it seems as if you did go into the shop and then you took the money from inside of the shop?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is not so.  I was outside, Msibi would say that, Msibi was there.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to put it to you again, I did not hear your answer I am sorry, then it is a mistake that you did not go into the shop to go and get the money as it appears in paragraph 16?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I tried to say and explain that when I got there, they were preparing to close the store.  As I said there were people getting out of the store.
	Now Msibi had his car door open, the one person was putting books into the car.  It was not the whole till, but the tray from the till with the money, that the person had.  I did not go inside the store, everything happened outside the store.

MS VAN DER WALT: I will not repeat my question.  Sir, you yesterday testified that Hlaza took the till drawer or tray and as you ran, the money fell out of this tray, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the end of the day you only had R600-00 is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you during your court proceedings and the Court also found that you received R1 000-00 or got R1 000-00?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: You also say that that was from the court.  All those Judges, the Prosecutors, the police were from the apartheid regime.  They were absolutely against any member of the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, you gave evidence before a Magistrate and what you are telling this Committee now is that you went and shot Mr Msibi and that you took money and that it was R1 000-00?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: At that time, I was from the hospital.  I had been very tortured by the police.  I just saw a white Boer, woman, that I had to speak to at Witbank.  I had just been tortured and threatened.
	Yes, after those conditions, I must have done that because I wanted to at least save my life.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, I did not see that confession.  Does it say in that confession that R1 000-00 was taken or that R1 000-00 was received?

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to make sure.  I then took R1 000-00, that is all.