Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR NGUBANE: Yes.  Is it your evidence that at that time, you believed that you could point out the place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I believed at that time, as I do now, that there were cliffs and due to that, I would be able to point out the place.  I was proven wrong when I came down with the Attorney General's people.

MR NGUBANE: And when you went to that place, where Mr Bhila was killed, did you carry a torch or something in order for you to see that place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do not remember there being any torches.

MR NGUBANE: Were you directed by either Mr Lembede or Mr Mhieza to that place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I had said in my earlier evidence, I believe whoever the member was who was with us, he took us there, so he wouldn't have given us directions.

MR NGUBANE: Did you gain the impression that whoever pointed out that place, he knew that place very well?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, he obviously knew the area, or must have known the area.

MR NGUBANE: Did you not enquire whether it was safe to carry this dirty operation at that place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Sorry, I didn't quite hear that.

MR NGUBANE: Did you ever enquire whether it was safe to kill someone at that place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I just went on the assumption that being local, a person would know a suitable place.

MR NGUBANE: You didn't even ask whether some other people had been killed and thrown at that cliff?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No.

MR NGUBANE: Now, let's come to Mhieza now.  I want you to come out clear, was Mhieza involved in this operation, was he there or you can't recall whether he was there?  You can't state as a fact whether he was there, or he was not there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot now remember if Mhieza was present during that operation.

MR NGUBANE: But if someone were to say that Mhieza was present, you wouldn't deny that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember him being there, if somebody else remembers him being there, it will be my word against his and vice versa.

MR NGUBANE: No, no, it can't be your word against his, you say you can't remember.  My question is if someone were to positively say that Mhieza was there, because you can't recall, you won't be in a position to deny that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I won't be able to deny that.

MR NGUBANE: At the shooting range, that is at the risk of using a misnomer, where you waited for Bhila to be transported, did you see Bhila coming there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot as I am sitting here, remember Bhila arriving.

MR NGUBANE: But do you remember when Bhila was there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: He was there during the day, yes.

MR NGUBANE: Was he injured?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall.

MR NGUBANE: Was he naked?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no recollection if he was dressed or naked Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: What of him do you remember as you were there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember anything of him Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: When he was shot at the cliff, was he shot on his foot, on his head or on his body?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: He was shot in the head Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: You remember that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I do.

MR NGUBANE: But you say you can't recall whether he was interrogated or not?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is right.

MR NGUBANE: At the shooting range?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection was that I cannot remember.

MR NGUBANE: When the statement of Mr Bosch was read to you by Captain Holmes, can you recall whether it did state that Mr Bhila was interrogated at the shooting range?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember what Mr Bosch said in his statement, about that.

MR NGUBANE: What you put in your statement, Exhibit B, that he was interrogated, can you account for that, whether it was out of your own volition?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot, as I said earlier, the only explanation I have for that is that I have probably superimposed the other application, amnesty application with this one, because from evidence, there apparently wasn't.

MR NGUBANE: You were saying that you had evidence yesterday, and is it your evidence that you consulted with your co-applicants after the evidence was led yesterday?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: We spoke, yes.

MR NGUBANE: And did you discuss about the interrogation?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't believe we spoke about the interrogation.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, can you tell us briefly what you consulted on?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say we spoke about the proceedings yesterday, and how they went Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, what in particular that you can remember about the proceedings yesterday?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: We spoke about McCarter going first and it being difficult to go first and what we remembered in broad terms, about the application, what happened.
	I don't specifically remember us talking about the interrogation.

MR NGUBANE: There was a specific request made to you yesterday, about the whereabouts of the body, didn't that concern you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: In what regard Mr Chairman?

MR NGUBANE: Concern you to such an extent that you consulted extensively on that, trying to relocate the place in the interest of the family?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, we most definitely spoke about, amongst ourselves as to the fact that could any of us remember of possibly find where Mr Bhila's body was disposed of and the conclusion of that was, I don't think anyone of us can remember where it was or go to the exact place again.

MR NGUBANE: I take it it was not of primary concern to you?  Is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, coming as a request from the family, it was of concern to us and hence we spoke about it.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, I used the word primary concern, it was not of primary concern to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, my primary concern is giving the right evidence here and getting through this hearing.

MR NGUBANE: Yes.  By implication, are you telling me that it was of no primary concern to you, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, either it is of concern to me, or it is not of concern to me.  It was of concern, because it was a request from the family.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Rosslee, a theory has been advanced to me by the families, that maybe that place where Bhila was killed, was a killing field and you are hiding that place, because you know that more can be unearthed.  What are your comments to that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I find that strange Mr Chairman, in that I have only applied, or I have applied for two incidents, of which only one was in Port Natal.
	I have been down here, and I have thought about it, I couldn't find that place, I have no further knowledge of if that place was used as a killing field as you say, or for any other reason.

MR NGUBANE: The other incident, other than this one, were you also threatened with prosecution in that one?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I was.

MR NGUBANE: So you only talk about matters where you have been threatened with prosecution?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, my application is for two incidents and only two incidents, and on both occasions I was threatened with prosecution, there weren't other incidents.

MR NGUBANE: And did you know of any other incidents where other people were involved, where innocent people were killed at Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I had no knowledge of the doings of other teams and the specifics with what they were busy with when they were away Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Now, at Vlakplaas,you spent a period of about a year, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And during that period, were you only involved in legitimate operations, legitimate in the sense that you didn't kill innocent people, everything was legal?