Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

MS PRETORIUS: That is correct, I am sorry, I didn't refer to that.  That is correct Mr Chairman.  That is the document that Mr Lowies today has been asking you about, that is the first document that is in front of the Committee, that you admit to, speaking about Boipatong because the unsigned document is not, you didn't sign the unsigned document?  The second document, the application form, the second application form, you did not admit to and then also the letter that you wrote, let me just say the second application form is the document on pages 11, 12 and 13, that is the other one you did not admit to and then this document that is for indemnity, you also said it is not your signature, the next letter is a letter written by you, but there Boipatong is not mentioned, so the first document that you admit to about Boipatong, is the one that was taken this year, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.

MS PRETORIUS: Because I want to put it to you that when this Committee started, there was no application of you in front of this Committee and it was only in January, the 19th of January that any statement was put before this Committee that you admit to, that was in connection with the Boipatong incident?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know how it happened, I don't know.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva, do you also need a month?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, you ruled on Monday afternoon that I wouldn't ask questions, so ...

CHAIRPERSON: You have a version that you have to put and you are fully entitled to have that denied or ...

MR DA SILVA: Well, the witness doesn't implicate my client.  There is only one aspect that I wish to canvass if I am allowed to do so Mr Chairman, a very short aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before we come to you, because you are an implicated person, why don't we finish with the applicants first, and that will be Mr Strydom.

MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is if he has any questions.

MR STRYDOM: I've got a few.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Just as an introduction Mr Nosenga, I just want to put to you three things that has been put to you again, but on behalf of the applicants that I appear for, I just want to put it to you.  Firstly I want to put it to you that you were not staying in the hostel during June 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not correct.

MR STRYDOM: Secondly I want to put it to you that you were  not part of the attackers that attacked Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was present at the time of the arrest on Boipatong on the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: Thirdly Mr Nosenga, I want to put to you therefore your implication of the Police in this attack,  is false.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it is not false.

MR STRYDOM: You told us that you grew up in Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go to Boipatong from time to time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was for the first time in 1991 that I was fleeing from the ANC comrades of Everton, that is when I went to kwaMadala hostel.  I only went there for the first time in 1991.

MR STRYDOM: No Mr Nosenga, I am asking about Boipatong.  When did you go to Boipatong for the first time in your life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall, but yes, I used to go to Boipatong before I went to stay at the hostel of kwaMadala.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any reasons why you went to Boipatong from time to time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had relatives who had been killed there, I had relatives, I was visiting my relatives.

MR STRYDOM: You also said that they were killed.  Were they killed during the Boipatong attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any names of any of your relatives that were killed during the Boipatong attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, not now, maybe if you could go to my family they will give you names, because we have Nosenga's as our relatives in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: But why did you say that relatives of yours were killed, do you have specific knowledge in that regard, or is it only speculation or why did you mention that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am not speculating.  My family came to tell me that I also participated in killing my relatives in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked Mr Nosenga, why did you go to Boipatong before the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that you used to go there because you had relatives that you were visiting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct and friends as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Friends?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that your relatives were killed during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but you did not know the names of these relatives?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know them.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something please, the people you don't know, are the people who were killed in the attack, have I understood you correctly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the time we were attacking Boipatong sir.

MR LAX: What I would like to ask you is what about those who were killed before the attack, who were the reason why you went to visit your relatives there, who were those people?  Do you understand, you are looking puzzled?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't understand.

MR LAX: You have just told us this, you were asked had you been to Boipatong before the attack and you said yes, you went there to visit relatives and friends who had been killed there.  This was before the attack, you then went on to say that there were also relatives killed during the attack.  What I want to know is which of your relatives did you go and visit before the attack in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know their names, but yes, we have our relatives bearing the same surname in Boipatong.

MR LAX: And do you know how they were killed and why they were killed, these people whose families you went to visit?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is at the time when we went out on this Boipatong massacre, they too were killed because they were also residents.

MR LAX: No, you are misunderstanding me.  We are talking about people whom you visited before the attack, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: Now, what we are trying to understand is those people killed before the attack, how were they killed and what was it over and was it in violence perhaps or was it just natural causes, we don't know so we are just trying to get a picture of why you went to Boipatong and what it was about.  Do you understand?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: Can you help us?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were killed during the times of violence at Boipatong.

MR LAX: Can you recall approximately how many times people were killed from your family who were living there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LAX: Can you recall by whom they would have been killed, if they were killed in the violence, it would have been by one or other of the sides or the people involved in the violence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know really.

MR LAX: So you don't know to which political grouping or supporters they may have belonged, the people who were killed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I can explain shortly about my family.  Most members of my family are not involved in politics, they just go to church.

MR LAX: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I then understand you to say some of your relatives were killed during the unrest in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And others were killed during the attack on Boipatong?