Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

MR BERGER: And did you tell Brian that you had seen on the television that the hearings were under way and that you were not there and you were worried about the fact that you were not there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, I told him so.

MR BERGER: What did you ask Brian to do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I spoke to him and I expressed my concerns to him seeing that I had submitted my application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is what did you ask Brian to do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I requested him to come over to me and he promised, indeed he came.  He came if I still remember very well.

MR BERGER: So, you asked Brian to come and see you at Stofberg, is that what you say happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  Because he told me that he had been informed by Mongezi about my application.

MR BERGER: And when Brian came to see you at Stofberg, he came with me, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And who else did he come with?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember, except for Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: How many of us were there who came to visit you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only remember Mr Berger and Mr Brian.

MR BERGER: Do you see my colleague sitting here, Ms Cambanis?  She is putting her hand up?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see her.

MR BERGER: She was with us when we came to visit you, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, it is possible, but I can only remember Mr Berger as well as Mr Brian.  Maybe I just didn't notice her presence.

MR BERGER: You say it is possible, but you don't remember that she was there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I can only remember Mr Brian as well as Mr Berger very well.

MR BERGER: And did I tell you who I represented?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember very well.

MR BERGER: You don't remember that I said I acted for the victims of Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember very well.

MR BERGER: And did I ask you if you had a lawyer?  Do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I don't remember.  There are many things that we discussed, because Brian was also talking as well.

MR BERGER: If I were to ask you now who was your lawyer at the time that Brian and I and Ms Cambanis came to visit you, who would your lawyer have been?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it was Mr Brian, because he had been referred to me by Mongezi.

MR BERGER: And what did we ask you about?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think you asked me questions pertaining to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Do you remember if we had your statement with us?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember very well.

MR BERGER: Do you remember what we asked you about Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think you asked me as to what happened at Boipatong and I explained, mentioning the presence of the Police as well.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that we asked you about the Police specifically?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, if I remember very well, yes, you did ask me that question.

MR BERGER: And we asked you about Themba Khosa specifically?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And we said to you that we did not want to ask you any questions about your specific involvement that night, what you did in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I remember.  I cannot dispute that.

MR BERGER: What did you tell us that you wanted to happen, what did you say you wanted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think if I still remember very well, as I was talking to Mr Brian, I indicated that I too wanted to appear before the TRC because I was involved in the Boipatong massacre, but I was not arrested.

MR BERGER: And what did Mr Brian and I say we would do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think if I still remember very well, Mr Brian indicated that he was going to inform me as soon as the hearing on Boipatong assumes.  I asked him or should I say I indicated to him that I would like to come before the Commission, because I was also involved in the Boipatong massacre where the Police were involved, and Mr Brian said he was going to get back to me.

MR BERGER: Mr Brian's full name is Brian Kupedi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I think that is the one, but I just know him as Brian.

MR BERGER: And he came to see you with me and Ms Cambanis, it was on Monday the 10th of August 1998.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said that is correct, because Brian came in the company of Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Do you remember that we told you when the Boipatong hearings were going to start again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: They were starting the next day, the Tuesday, the 11th of August 1998.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand that, but I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Okay.  And do you remember that we promised you that we would give your details, your particulars and your statement to the Amnesty Committee the next day so that you could be called to come here to be an applicant?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember very well, so many things were discussed, I cannot remember very well really.

MR BERGER: Well, when we left you, what did you think was going to happen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I thought something was going to happen, I was hoping to be represented by Mr Brian because he had informed me that Mongezi had been transferred to Cape Town.

MR BERGER: You were hoping that after we left you, somehow you would come as another applicant together with the other applicants, before this Committee where Mr Brian would represent you, is that what you were hoping?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that we took down certain details so that you could be contacted, like your prison number, the name of the person at the prison who could be contacted, the telephone number of the prison, do you remember that discussion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying we discussed so many things, I cannot honestly remember everything that we discussed.  Yes, that is possible.

MR BERGER: What is the next thing that happened to you after our visit?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think it was on a Wednesday I came here in this area, this is where I met with the present legal Counsel, my present legal Counsel.  I spent the whole day in a Police van on the premises of Iscor.

MR BERGER: Yes, Brian and I and Ms Cambanis, we came on the Monday and then you came here on the Wednesday, two days later, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, I don't know if you will be able to comment on this, but just to place it on record that Mr Brian didn't have a copy of your statement on file at the ANC office, so he asked the TRC in Cape Town if they had a copy of your statement.  On the 27th of July 1998 this is before Brian and Ms Cambanis and me came to see you, the TRC in Cape Town sent a fax to Brian, or to Brian's office, containing a copy of your unsigned statement which is pages 8, 9 and 10 on Exhibit R as well as a copy of the first three pages of your application form which is 1, 2 and 3 of Exhibit R.  After that it didn't come out any more and that this was sent from the office of the Executive Secretary, Adv Martin Coetzee, to the ANC on that date.  You wouldn't have any knowledge of that Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no, I would not have knowledge of that.

MR BERGER: Now, when you came to the hearings on that Wednesday in August, the 12th of August 1998, you say you spent the whole day in a Police van?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, if I am not mistaken I spent the entire day in a Police van outside.

MR BERGER: And you saw your present legal representative, Ms Tanzer on that day, you spoke to her?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, I spoke to her.