Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I did not stand at one point and listen but I understood that he spoke about the secession or something like that of the Volkstaat and those type of things.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about the secession, does that mean that the Volkstaat would be introduced by means of secession?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's how I understood it Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: The AWB, after this meeting, was the country divided into different regions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I asked someone why there were so few people and he said that what was happening here was happening all over the country because the country is divided into different regions and everybody must hear what was going on.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also spoke of General Ackerman who during the meeting at Ventersdorp, he was also a speaker, what was the message he conveyed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: During that time I was also there when the meeting took place and I heard General Ackerman speaking and he said there's no more time for talk, it's time for war and at one point the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche, when he spoke he, the officers who were sitting there were screaming war, the people want war and then I heard Terreblanche saying to them do you know what you're talking about ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now Mr Terreblanche?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Terreblanche.  And he said I give you 2 weeks, go back to your people and then you come back to me with an answer and tell me what the people want and they shouted the people are tired they want war.  That is what it came down to, maybe it is not the exact words, but that is what it came down to and then when General Ackerman spoke he said there's no more time for talking, it's time for war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the people who were shouting, you mentioned officers, are those the people you are referring to?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that's the way I understood it, it was a closed meeting and an officers meeting and that's why there were only officers.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this meeting take place?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: First there was an open meeting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No but there where the people, the Generals as you call them, said that the people want a war, when did that meeting take place?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At the Trim Park in Ventersdorp that same day.

CHAIRPERSON: When during the year would that have been?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was in February Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: 1994?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that the people in Ventersdorp gathered together, as the previous applicant testified, in order to start a war or do I have it wrong?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson as usual we got instructions to go to Ventersdorp to do the security there and when we got there I saw that the majority were officers so it was not the same as the previous meetings in the Town Halls where the general AWB Wen Kommando members were addressed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the time when everybody went with children, wives and all their belongings to Ventersdorp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No not yet, that was later.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I could just put it on record that if you look at Mr Le Roux's application he does not deal with this specific meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you.  I would just like you to try and explain to the Committee that when you said there was a meeting for officers only - you also testified to the extent of an open meeting.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just clarify those two concepts, you did the security of both these meetings.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you explain?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The first meeting as I understood it was concerned with the general aspects of the Volkstaat, secession and a lot of other things, I was not involved the whole time because I had the men under me and I was looking after security.  The second one was where the officers were and they spoke about a map where the Volkstaat then would have been, something of that nature.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie the first meeting was that attended by the general public?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes there was general public present at the first meeting.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was it then at the second meeting that there was talk about the war?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes about the war.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie was this in a building at the Trim Park or was it in open air?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was a cement platform with a roof.

ADV BOSMAN: So if you did the security, could you hear what was said at the meeting or were you outside the Trim Park?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: With the closed meeting at the Trim Park I couldn't hear everything when I was moving around in the Trim Park.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the closed meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: With the closed meeting I couldn't hear everything that was happening, the open meeting there were loudspeakers and if you wanted to listen you could hear what was being said.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you heard what was being said with regard to the war?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know Brigadier Chris Van den Heever?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I know him, he was in my area and I was under him when I was in the Wen Kommando and I was Commandant.

MS VAN DER WALT: What type of rank did he have, was it a special type of rank as Brigadier?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As we knew he was a fighting Colonel and he served under General Japie Oelofse and he was part of the special task force and he was also an instructor in the special forces where he gave special training to the special members.

MS VAN DER WALT: The fighting General that you just referred to within the AWB, what was his job, did he have special tasks?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know what his tasks were because he served under Oelofse, but I know that he - you find people like you say, people who bragged, well he bragged that he was training these people in the special force of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: To do what?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well I believe it was for purposes of war, that type of thing.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you assist the Committee with regard the rank structure of the AWB.  The previous witness spoke about the Generals in staff, how did you understand this, what was the structure?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I knew that the leader was the head of the AWB then you find the KG ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: What is that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is the Commandant General in the AWB, it was first Mr Christiaan De Wet, I think he was a former policeman and then later when he wasn't there anymore it was General Cruywagen.

CHAIRPERSON: These Generals you're talking about - I do not know how to put this, but these were AWB Generals they were not normal Generals in the Defence Force?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who took the decision for any actions which were to take place within the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I assume it was the Generals in staff who made the decisions and I am sure they must have received approval from the leader of the AWB which is Eugene Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt can we just finish with the rank structure and just learn the identities of these people?

MS VAN DER WALT: You mentioned the KG, and then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Under the KG or Commandant General you would find normal General.  A few of them that I knew was General Oelofse, Dirk Ackerman, General Smit, General Etsabeth and General Nick Fourie and I also think there was another General Faan Fourie, then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And Nico Prinsloo?