Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

MS SAMUEL: And you also told us that this is something that you, it's very painful to you, but this was part of a whole - that this was an ongoing thing that was going on during that time.  Did you not realise that on the other side there was also a family that was now being torn apart as a result of these actions?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Definitely, definitely, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: According to the family, as a result of what happened to this person two of his sons today are in fact in prison because of lack of fatherly care and nobody to bring them up.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: That is quite possible, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: Did that not come into your mind at that stage, did that not occur to you?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Over the last 20 years I've agonised about such things.

MS SAMUEL: After this incident, did you continue to remain in the Security Forces, or did you in fact leave?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I stayed for another year, two years.

MS SAMUEL: What made you then come back thereafter?  Because you indicated some time in your papers that in 1984 you were recruited once again.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: In the light of the fact that you agonised over this whole thing, why did you decide to join the Security Forces once again?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well you see the job that I was offered the second time, was a job that was pure intelligence, it was just intelligence gathering.  I wouldn't be put in a situation where I would have to do any shooting or firing, in fact I didn't even have a firearm.  So it was pure intelligence work.  And because of the enormity of the things that were happening, because of the savagery of some of the incidents that were happening, I could not stand on the side anymore and watch.  I tried very hard, but I couldn't and I accepted the offer and I came back into the Security Branch, into the Intelligence Section, where I worked undercover.

MS SAMUEL: But as a result of becoming involved in this intelligence work, would that not have led to the same sort of situation where persons would have been eliminated?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Not necessarily.

MS SAMUEL: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS SAMUEL

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Ms Samuel, the Scorpion name, is that known to your clients, the name that says Scorpion?

MS SAMUEL: Could I just take instructions?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MS SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, the name Scorpion is known to client.  On his return from Angola he had taken on the name of Scorpion.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Mr Gold, during the time when there was a conversation with the deceased, when you captured this name being called to him, what was the nature of conversation?  Was it interrogatory or not?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No, maybe "We've arrived, will you get into this car, get out of that car and get into this car, please get out of the car", that kind of thing.

MR MAPOMA: Was he, the deceased, in your presence interrogated or confronted at all about the allegations of double-agents?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: I would like to get your comment here.  The deceased's family dispute that the deceased was a double-agent at all.  Do you have any comment on that?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I wouldn't have any comment about that, Mr Chairman, I would not have any comment.  I was just told what I was told, further than that I had no knowledge of this person before that morning, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  What did they say in fact, was he an active member of the ANC?  We've heard he took on this name coming back from Angola, was he an active MK member, what was his position?

MEMBER OF VICTIM'S FAMILY: A recruit.

MR MAPOMA: Their version is that he was an active MK operative.

ADV SANDI: I was going to say, Mr Mapoma, I hear you saying that the family of the deceased deny that the deceased was a double-agent, but is it not in the nature of being a double-agent - I'm not suggesting for a moment that the deceased was such a double-agent, but isn't that something normally people would keep in secrecy?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: They would not even tell their spouses about it.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, it does happen, Chair, but I wanted to put this version because if the victim's relatives testify they may delve further on why they come with that version.  I mean in substance than just putting the version now as I do.
	I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR LAX: Just one thing, Chair.
	Mr Gold, I'm just puzzled by this aspect in the papers at page 18, that was alluded to by Ms Samuel and that is the question of van Zyl showing you how this was to be done and you said you might be mistaken about   that.  Why would you have said it in the first place?  I mean you didn't know how to do it yourself and so the inference is that somebody showed you what to do because you were the expert in explosives but you hadn't done this sort of thing before.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I think I can explain this, Mr Chairman.  I think Mr van Zyl could see that I was shocked and numbed by this whole thing and I think his assistance there was due to what he saw.  I think that's what happened there.

MR LAX: So are you saying rather than showing you what to do he just took the lead and took over?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: He didn't take the lead, he just helped me with what I was doing I would say.

MR LAX: So it doesn't clearly express what you intended to say, is that what you're saying?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Not really.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Thank you, Sir.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, is Mr Gold excused at this point in time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, could he be excused?  Any objections?  On the condition that if we need him we'll let you know and he kindly shouldn't go as far as an air flight from Durban if possible.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I call Mr Visser.