Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: I'm not sure what you mean by that Mr Mhlaba.  Can I just put it to you again.  In front of you there was a group with many hundred-strong under the charge of Induna Mbatha.  Behind that there was a second group, you were in that group.  As you approached the intersection, the front group was stopped and Induna Mbatha said become one group, and the front of your group went up to the back of the first group.  Is that what happened?

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And were you still on the - you yourself had not yet reached the intersection?

MR MHLABA: I would say even the other group, they haven't yet reached the intersection, we were all about to reach.  When we came into the intersection we were now proceeding as one group.

MR TIPP: To be clear about that, the front of the first group had not yet reached the intersection at that stage, the stage when you became one group?

MR MHLABA: Yes they were not yet at the intersection, they were just near the intersection.  They were just before the robot, they were not yet into the intersection, they were about to enter the intersection.

MR TIPP: Could you perhaps indicate to us here how far you were at that time from the front of the first group?  In other words the very front of the now combined group.

MR MHLABA: Are you talking about the second group, how far we were, or you mean all of us combined as one group?

MR TIPP: You've told us that you became one group, correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now all I want is for you to indicate where you personally were, how far were you from the front of the group?  In other words the front of what had been the first group.  Do you follow?

MR MHLABA: Ja.  I will estimate the distance as it - I will from the Interpreter, the lady Interpreter, it will be distance from where I am to the Interpreter, the lady Interpreter.

MR TIPP: About 20 metres Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's about 20 metres.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, we know that in that intersection there was a white man with long hair, a tall man, who circled in that intersection, calling on the marchers to stop.  Did you see that person?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see the person.

MR TIPP: We know that his efforts were unsuccessful and that he was overrun when the group advanced and was in fact struck a number of times and injured.  Did you notice anything of that sort happening?

MR MHLABA: As I said, I didn't see any person getting injured.  I don't know, maybe one of those who were in front will have seen that, but myself as a person in the middle of the group, I didn't see anybody.

MR TIPP: You say that your group was just moving forward, or the entire group was just moving forward slowly and very peacefully?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Did you see two uniformed policemen approach the front of that group in a clear attempt to stop it and to divert it?

MR MHLABA: Where were these police standing?

MR TIPP: They came from the direction in which you were heading, straight towards the front of the group with their arms outstretched, calling on them to turn away and making it clear that they shouldn't proceed further down that street.

MR MHLABA: I didn't see them.

MR TIPP: Well they have given evidence, they have explained that they were knocked aside by this group, one of them was injured as a result of being struck with a spear.

MR MHLABA: I would not deny that, but what I know is we were told that the police were there to protect us.  I don't think all this happened, it might have happened another day where I was not present.  It's possible that when you're in the middle of a group you might not be able to see what happens on the other side of the group.

MR TIPP: You see I'm putting it to you that those are not disputed descriptions of what happened, and I want you to explain as far as you can, how it can be that such incidents take place in respect of a group that you say is moving slowly and peacefully.

MR MHLABA: I am also asking the same question as to why were we attacked, because we were peaceful, no-one was provoking any person.  And I'm asking the same question, why were we attacked, because I didn't see any problem amongst us as we were marching.

MR TIPP: Do you want me to repeat the question Mr Mhlaba, because I'm not asking you to ask questions, I'm asking you to answer them.

MR MHLABA: You can ask the question.

MR TIPP: Yes well let me put it again, and I'll put it more clearly.  The white gentleman that I've referred to has given evidence, or evidence has been accepted given by him under oath, that he was beaten by members of the group in which you were moving who were charging forward waving weapons in the manner of people carrying out an attack.  That evidence was given in the inquest, it was not challenged and it has been accepted here.  Now what do you say about that?

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect, I do not want to interrupt unnecessarily Mr Chair, but the interpretation of Mr von Eggedy as to the movement of the crowd was specifically canvassed at the time of the inquest with him, and there was also specific interpretation given to that evidence by Mr Justice Nugent in his judgement.  And I think if I recall correctly, specifically at page 137, in which Mr Justice Nugent made it quite clear that Mr von Eggedy's interpretation and the way he defined the movements was perhaps not that accurate, and to that extent that evidence is not accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: You can put what the evidence of Mr von Eggedy was, whether it was accepted by the inquest court or not.

MR TIPP: Yes, we'll deal with that in argument.  I'll put it on that basis Mr Chairman.
	Evidence was given by him that the crowd ignored his attempts to stop them, that they charged forward in the manner of people carrying out an attack, waving weapons, in the course of which he received a number of deliberate blows and was injured.  Now you were in that crowd, what do you say about that evidence?

MR MHLABA: I personally I was with the group.  I didn't see this white policeman getting injured from the position in which I was moving.  I won't be able to know, maybe on the other of the group he might have.

JUDGE NGCOBO: From the position in which you were in this group, could you see the front of the group after the two groups had merged?

MR MHLABA: Yes, before we formed one group I could see the front but after the merging of the two groups I couldn't see what was happening in front.

JUDGE NGCOBO: The lawyer is telling you that there was evidence given that there was a white man who came to stand before the united, the one group which was formed, he was trying to give them instructions but however he got injured, he was attacked.  He's saying the police also came to try to stop the group and you disobeyed them, is that true?

MR MHLABA: I would say I can hear what you're saying.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you say this group was proceeding peacefully and that some of the instructions given to you was that to follow people who were in authority, this means the policemen, how did it happen that this kind of incident could take place?

MR MHLABA: I would say that from my position as I was marching within the group, I didn't see any conflict or any problem as we were marching.  I only met the problem when we started getting shot or one of us was injured.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, we do accept that you didn't see these things happening, however the lawyer wants to find out that when you say you were marching peacefully and you were listening to instructions from police, why was one of the policemen who was trying to stop you, you didn't obey them and one of them got injured?

MR MHLABA: I will have an answer to that, I will say I was not in front but from my own knowledge from the time when we were deployed we were told to go to the meeting, we were told that we should co-operate with the police. However I'm not going to deny that any police was injured while marching.