Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-13

MR WILKINSON: Why do you think Black people attacked Whites that morning  the beach?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: I do not know because I was not there.

MR WILKINSON: Do you think politics could have played a role?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: No English translation.

MR WILKINSON: Is it possible that politics could have played a role in the attack?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: I do not believe that it had anything to do with politics.  I think they just intended to kill Black people.

MR WILKINSON: No, please listen to my question.   The attack that morning by Black people on White people, could that have been done for any political motive or for political gain?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: I have absolutely no knowledge thereof.

MR WILKINSON: Is it possible?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: As I've already explained, I said I don't know.

MR WILKINSON: Why would thirty people armed with knives run down a street and start stabbing people left and right?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: I was not there - I don't know -  I cannot answer that.

MR WILKINSON: Is it entirely impossible that the attack that morning could have been politically motivated?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: What I can say to your question - I do not want to answer that because I can see you want me to agree with you whereas I do not want to.  I've told you, I don't know.

MR WILKINSON: Sir, I would actually like you to answer the question in respect of reconciliation.  Will you agree with me that the incident could possibly have been politically inspired?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: May I point this to you, I do not know - I cannot stress it - I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: Will the answer one way or the other make any difference? Will it actually assist us in any way as far as the application is concerned?

MR WILKINSON: The applicant's case before the Committee is based on the fact that the attack was a reaction to the attack earlier that day - that morning.

ADV DE JAGER: But that is something about which the Committee will have to decide on the facts before it.  Somebody who was not involved cannot really give an opinion on the matter.

MR WILKINSON: He has formulated  certain rather strict opinions but let us leave it there for the moment as it pleases the Committee.

MR WILKINSON: Can you deny that the applicants testified that that evening, they were acting as a reaction to the morning's attack?

JUDGE WILSON: We heard them say that.  What's the point of asking him if he can deny they said it?  What's the relevance of it, I'd like to know?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on, it cannot be interpreted.

MR WILKINSON: Since the conviction of the applicants and up till today, all three applicants have  been  in custody for five years  of which  three  and a half years were spent on death row.  How do you expect the applicants to have been able to pay you any compensation or assist in compensating you?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: I have a belief that their organisation had sent them to do this, so they can see to finish what they do about the whole situation.

MR WILKINSON: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Zulu, did you know some of the passengers in the bus?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: Yes, because we used to board the very same bus almost every day.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where were they from, as far as you know?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: Do you mean the same people that we board the bus with?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: We were staying at different places because the bus was going to the tents.  There were those who were staying at Canning as well as Nozaza, as well as at the ...[inaudible]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let me put my question this way because I realise it was ambiguous.  You were coming from work when you boarded the bus
...[intervention]

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, these other people that you knew that you used to board this bus with, as far as you know, where were they from - that evening?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: We always board the bus with them when we are coming from work so they were also coming from work.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: How old are your children.

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: My son that is my first born, finished university last year.  The other one is doing matric at the moment.

ADV DE JAGER: A boy or a girl?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: He's also a boy.

ADV DE JAGER: And the rest, are they all at school?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: The other one is a girl, she's at boarding school at Vryheid.  She's doing standard nine.

ADV DE JAGER: So all the rest of the children are still at school?

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you request the Committee in the event of them coming to a decision to consider to send your application through to the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, that's a Committee that could negotiate with the Government for compensation or reparation, rather.

TABANI RICHARD ZULU: I think that can be handled by my attorney.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to the witness?

MR BRINK: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Purshotam, any re-examination?

MR PURSHOTAM: No, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zulu, thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Purshotam
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PURSHOTAM: Mr Chairman, I now propose to call Themba Buthelezi.

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

MR PURSHOTAM: Mr Buthelezi, what is your age?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: I think I can't hear properly.

MR PURSHOTAM: Mr Buthelezi, what is your age?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: I'm 37 years old.

MR PURSHOTAM: Do you have any children?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR PURSHOTAM: How many?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Three.

MR PURSHOTAM: What are their ages?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: My first born is nine years old, my second born seven years and third born six years.

MR PURSHOTAM: Are you employed at present?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: No.

MR PURSHOTAM: When did you loose your job?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: When I got injured.

MR PURSHOTAM: Are those the injuries which you suffered in the incident which has been mentioned this morning?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR PURSHOTAM: You've already heard Mr Zulu relating to the Committee the circumstances of the incident, do you agree that what he related to the Committee is what happened on that particular day in the bus?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do agree with him.

MR PURSHOTAM: Do you have anything to add to that, without repeating what he said?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do have something to say, more especially about myself - how I got injured.

MR PURSHOTAM: Yes, please proceed.

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: I will just relate to you what I've seen.  Usually I used to go to work at 2 o'clock and knock off at 7 o'clock.  In the evenings and day we boarded the bus.  It took the Red Hill Road.  When the bus was approaching the bridge, I only heard gun fire but I didn't see the people, I only heard people screaming.

MR PURSHOTAM: Yes, and were you shot as well?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Yes, that's how I got shot.

MR PURSHOTAM: In which parts of your body were you wounded?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: I would show you where I was shot and one bullet is still remaining inside me.  They said they couldn't remove it because it's in a very dangerous place.  It's still there, it's still inside.

MR PURSHOTAM: How long were you in hospital?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: I think it was three months but I'm not quite sure because I lost my consciousness for a long time.

MR PURSHOTAM: Have you applied for employment since your discharge from hospital?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR PURSHOTAM: And what was the result of your application for employment?

THEMBA BUTHELEZI: The problem was that I couldn't get employment because I'm now ill and I'm always ill.  No employer wants to employ someone who'll be always absent at work.