Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

MR MONTATA: Thank you Mr Mkhiwane.  We don't mean to bring back into your mind the sad past of September but if we do ask you questions related with that period, is simply for you to guide us, to give us a clear picture of what had
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happened or what took place and it is in that process that we will be in a position to share with you your frustrations and the hardships that you have sustained. Could you please relax. My first question would be, when your wife phoned you, where were you at that time?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: I was in my office at my work place that was AA Insurance Company.

MR MONTATA: You left home in the morning for work?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: That is correct.

MR MONTATA: How was the scene in the morning that day in the farm?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: It was a quiet day but immediately when I went out of Everton, next to the cemetery I saw a lot of trucks as well as busses and I say many people carrying sticks as well as traditional weapons and iron bars. I proceeded to work, I never thought anything could happen thereafter.

MR MONTATA: At that time, these people, didn't they have placards or posters with them that they carried aloft?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: No I never saw any placards or posters.

MR MONTATA: But before even this time, as a councillor, had you ever heard what the feelings of the people were towards the councillors or towards the Council administration as a whole?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: Yes there were some rumours that we as the Councillors, we were supporting the then government, that is the government of oppression. There were rumours and the rumours were quite right, that the councillors should resign from their posts because they were supporting the government of oppression.

MR MONTATA: And the councillors did consider the call of
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the people?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: We once talked about this matter at executive level but it was apparent that the person who was actually involved with a certain political party was myself. Other people wanted to distance themselves from a certain political party and I warned them that they should be aware of those things.  But I failed to persuade them to align themselves with a certain political organisation because
our main aim was for us to have a voice in the present government, or the then government of the day. That was the only way that we would be able to approach the higher hierarchy in government so that we could get our rights.

MR MONTATA: That is you talked amongst yourselves as councillors.  Was there ever a joint approach to the government itself as councillors with regard to what the people were saying?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: We did. In 1985. In 1986 we went to Cape Town in Parliament and we were afforded a chance to see the then President, P W Botha as well as the Minister of Education, as well as the Minister of Finance as well as Mr Malan and Mr Le Granje. We spoke to them and we told them about the dissatisfaction of the community. We were afforded an opportunity to get municipal police. Some of the rights that we had requested were that they should put an end to the restriction of pass as far as Black people were concerned.  We wanted to put an end to borders that were being set of having passports.  Those were the things that we listed as our grievances to the government but we were not assisted in any way.

MR MONTATA: You will excuse me once more to ask you, so many questions because what happened in the Vaal on that day HRV/1049 had/...
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had national and international repercussions. That is why I will come back to the question.  You belonged to ANC in the '40's...(intervention).

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: '43 yes.

MR MONTATA: '43 yes. My question would be, at what point did you break away from the tradition of ANC of not listening to the voices of the people?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: I never lost that tradition. I'm still a member of the ANC even now. The fact that we should not assist the people, you can take a cup of boiling water and pour it in the sea it will never make the sea water to boil. I was all by myself with nobody assisting me within the group. I was like a voice in the wilderness at the time. Even when I joined the Council, I was elected or requested by the community and I wanted to know as to what was contained by the Council that was representing the people and I got it and I knew it and I know it now.
 I also wanted to know the core of the whole matter. I did not want to be scared away.

MR MONTATA: Right.  But later, more especially when you discovered that your house was burned down, you could have read the attitude of the people that you thought you were representing in the Council, namely that they seemed to demonstrate their disapproval of your presence in the Council.

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: The people in my ward as well as other wards, even today seem to like me, even in November, in the November election, they had brought money and they wanted me  to stand for election in the Council, because I could not be bribed. I did what I deemed fit for the community.

MR MONTATA: And if I understand you well, at least the
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process of reconciliation with the people, in your case has started already?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: That is correct, even in 1985 and 1986, I used to drive my car and park it and take a walk in Zone 7B as well as A.  There was absolutely no aggression and I was revered at all times and they showed sympathy as to what had happened to me. The people even today respect and revere me.

MR MONTATA: That's a very encouraging picture and I would love that it be maintained. But my next question would be, even thereafter, and even in the early '90's we still had a lot of problems here in the Vaal. What was your position or what was your opinion in terms of having to stop all this conflict?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: I have tried all my best to, with certain people within the community, so that we could discuss these matters. I have told them several times that the Council is not their enemy but it is their rod to try and bring together the community and fight against the enemy. So we should come together as a community and fight this issue. We used to discuss those issues with other men but the fact that certain people were now very angry and aggressive, we could not succeed.  We were torn apart, we did not actually see eye to eye.  The community was divided as the majority did not seem to understand the way forward.

MR MONTATA: It appears, subject to correction, that the majority in the Vaal belonged to ANC and at this time, that is the late, more especially after the '90s, who did you consider as the main enemy of the Vaal?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: I'll start by saying, I cannot point a finger but there was an enemy.  There was an enemy but I don't want to point fingers and say this was specifically the enemy or
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that was specifically the enemy. There were many ANC members who died, who lost their lives within the Vaal Triangle.  They were also trying to create peace and I was amongst those members of the ANC who had lost all my possessions that I had worked so hard for throughout my life. There were enemies and whenever they would fight, you could not choose a side if you decide to hit, you hit even the tree that's in front of you. That's where I'll stop.

MR MONTATA: You didn't belong to any structures that were pleading for peace, trying to bring the people of the Vaal together to end all those divisions?

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: In reality I could not give it a name, but had certain names that we had come together with. We used to discuss issues, make meetings and we would discuss our problems as well as portable resolutions but simply because as we were just a group who was conducting those meetings, we couldn't get any good out of the struggle.