Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

MR WESSELS: The information that you had with regard to Gavin Evans, where did you gain this from and from whom did you gain this?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, the information was a collaboration of several sources and in this regard, if my memory serves me correctly, it came from ground level.  In other words Region 6 had connections with the police and through these channels and other sources, they fed it back to us and to Headquarters level.  It was then verified as part of the information system of the whole Defence Force and of the State itself and thereby the information was confirmed with regard to the activities of, for example, Evans in this matter or in this case.

MR WESSELS: Did the authorisation take place as you have already explained, through normal procedures?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In this regard, if I recall correctly, it came from ground level.  It came to me and I then used Defence Force structures in order to confirm it and I had them continue, but at some stage I submitted it to the hierarchy, namely the Chairperson of Special forces.

MR WESSELS: On page 191 you refer to the second incident for which you apply for amnesty.  Will you please ready that?
MR VERSTER
During 1989 members of the CCB were given instruction to watch one D Omar in Cape Town.  The persons who were involved here were Staal Burger, Slang van Zyl, Kalla Botha and Wouter Basson.  The monitoring of Omar was done on instruction of myself and it was in preparation in order to kill the mentioned persons, but no onslaught was made on the life of that person and he was not injured in this regard.

MR WESSELS: In this regard where did the information come from?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Once again the information came from ground level, from the region itself.  Because of their connections with the underground and with members of the police, it was then submitted to me.  We confirmed it.  A plan was formulated by the region and then we authorised it according to that.

MR WESSELS: And then in paragraph 1.3 you deal with a bomb at the Early Learning Centre.
MR VERSTER
The explosion of a bomb at the Early Learning Centre in Cape Town during 1989, this bomb was exploded there by members of the CCB on my instructions and the purpose was in order to frighten persons who were responsible for bombs going off in Cape Town.  This bomb exploded during the late hours and according to my information, no one was injured.  Persons involved here were Wouter Basson, Kalla Botha, van Zyl.

MR WESSELS: Then you continue in paragraph 2 that Mr Omar was a member or supporter of the ANC and will you please read 2.2.
MR VERSTER
These actions were actions which I had instructions from above and was authorised according to procedures and which instructions were given down by me.  This was - the action was conducted bona fide.

MR WESSELS: You can stop there.  Mr Verster, is it correct that this incident was comprehensively described and details were supplied as to what happened and what had taken place before the Harms Commission in 1990?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WESSELS: Where Mr Slang van Zyl who was involved in this incident, had given comprehensive evidence with regard to what had happened there, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WESSELS: You have also read the statement of Mr van Zyl?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, I have.

MR WESSELS: And those statements, with regard to the facts as far as you know, are they correct in essence?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I cannot testify as to how correct their statements are, but with regard to where it touches upon me, where I gave authorisation for the operations and what the purpose and function of the structures were, they were correct, but because we worked on an indirect basis and for example Mr van Zyl had his own operatives on ground level, I did not have access to information at that stage, but in essence it is correct, this concurs with the purpose of the Civil Corporation Bureau.
	I would also just like to add that, Chairperson, that the CCB was an Executive structure of the South African Defence Force.  The South African Army back then was responsible for battles on land.  Special Forces were co-opted by the Chief of the Army to assist South African Defence Force and the CCB was the structure who moved on the terrain where the enemy chose to move and this was under civilian circumstances.  Our purpose was to destruct the enemy and if it was necessary, to kill the enemy.  We saw it as a military operation, as part of the structures of the then structures and we tried to execute it to the best of our abilities.

MR WESSELS: Were you aware of the identity of the operatives that Mr van Zyl had used in order to perform the tasks that had to be performed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were certain instances where names were given to me, for example Peaches and so forth, Chairperson, but I did not have any clue as to their real identities and I had no connection with them.  This would have been in contravention of the rules that we had.

MR WESSELS: Were you aware that Mr Barnard was used?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Under no circumstances was I aware that Mr Barnard had been used by Mr van Zyl.  I only learned this later when I read their statements, Chairperson.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Chairperson.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

MR MARTINI: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, any questions?  Mr P du Plessis, any questions?

UNKNOWN: No questions thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr H du Plessis, any questions you'd like to put?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I need to get instructions from my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Coetzee, any questions?

MR COETZEE: On behalf of Mr Barnard, I've got no questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR VAN ECK: As it pleases the Chairperson.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Verster the reference to giving of instruction, the names that you have given there, that was in the group as a whole and not to individuals?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, yes, the structures functioned to the effect that where I will speak to the Regional Manager and the Regional Manager will contact the person who was directly tasked with the operation whom I cannot recall now, but depending on which project it was, we worked in that manner and it was not necessarily the whole group as a whole.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, may I just mention at this stage that we have no questions and we reserve the right to ask questions later, Chairperson?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, do you have any questions you would like to ask this witness?

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Verster, I want to read to you from volume 2 of the Commissions' report at page 143, paragraph 4.1.8.  Have you got that document?  I'm sure that your counsel has.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the report...

GEORGE BIZOS: The report of the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, if I could just ask, oh, we've got copies here, thank you.  This comes from volume 2 of the Commission's report which was published about 18 months ago.  Mr Bizos, we'll receive this photocopy as Exhibit D.  It's to page 133 paragraph, I didn't catch - page 143

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, have we got that here Ms Coleridge?

MS COLERIDGE: I just want to check with Adv Bizos.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if - I think there's only one edition but I think we might have the wrong pages here.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.