Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes woman are used to nice facilities and luxuries.  The bathroom which was there, the one toilet was not enough for everybody, there were too many women and children and the women were not happy so they decided they'd find us another place to stay, this is for the women and children so then we went to the head office where we met Jan De Wet and his wife, he's also an applicant here and then they took us to Ottersdal, the farm which he was living on then.

MS VAN DER WALT: Several times in your evidence you mention that you went to head office, so head office was there in Ventersdorp and that's where Terreblanche governed, he governed from that head office.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: So Terreblanche, him the leader, he must have known that the people were gathering together there and what was going on?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes definitely because we greeted him, he must have known.  How else could he make people come to Ventersdorp and he doesn't know, otherwise he would have asked us questions, what we were doing there.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you saw him at head office?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then the men eventually went to a game farm at Magaliesberg, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.  We then left the women behind and went back to Ventersdorp and Major Smit told us that h received an instruction from Brigadier Van der Merwe that we must return to his house.

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now from Ottersdal?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Ottersdal, that's correct.  So off we went.  In that time I did what Major Smit told me because there at the trees the people were speaking and Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe said that nobody should carry his rank anymore.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this at the Trim Park?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes this is at the Trim Park.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Before we went to Cliffie's farm and we were not wearing uniform or anything of the kind.

MS VAN DER WALT: What made you understand and why were you told that you were not going to carry rank anymore or wear your rank anymore?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I think it was in order to avoid becoming a target because if you occupy or protect a place, as you learn in the army, if you carry a rank and you can see who are the officers then they would use sharpshooters to kill them.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage did you realise you were in a war?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At that stage no, I did not know exactly what was going on.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you accepted what you were told?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you go to the game farm in Magaliesberg?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes and we went with an escort.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you got there, were any instructions given?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When we arrived there there were already some other people and I learned from the men that General Nico Prinsloo and Jannie were busy with the construction of poles for the radios.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this Jannie Kruger?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, to be able to be in contact with head office and with the farmers in the vicinity, in order to be in radio contact with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: So do you carry any knowledge with regards to the fact that radio poles were erected?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes they were because I saw and others must have seen as well how Jannie Kruger had problems with the radios and trying to connect with the others and then they went back to change the poles a bit.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know that Jannie Kruger was also involved with head office?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the AWB head office.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes the AWB head office in Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was he also a member of the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: So if I understand you correctly then you had connection with head office and head office would have known that you were gathering at this game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The way I understood it was that if there were any problems with regards to the farmers, they would make contact with head office and head office would let us know what to do.  That is why they used that area because it was quite high and it was situated in the middle and that made it easy to have better contact with people around that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie who would have given you all this information?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If you are together then you can see the people are busy and then you would ask what is happening and then they will tell you that we're putting up the radio poles because we must be in connection with head office and then they would say yes head office would let us know if there were any problems.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem to me that a lot of promises were made, the question of this is going to happen and in case it wasn't going to work, did you make back up plans.  Now where did all this information, how did you receive all this information, you as a group gathered together there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When we were in Ventersdorp at that moment we did not know about the radio poles or the game farm.

CHAIRPERSON: But the time you were spending there you received this information, is that no so?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At the game farm?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, yes.  Now who carried all this information, who was the messenger.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At the game farm Jannie Kruger told us how the radios would work.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the game farm, after you arrived there, were you then appointed as Camp Commandant?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe came to me and said to me, AB you are appointed as Camp Commandant and you must make sure there is good hygiene.  Holes were dug and all the rubbish was thrown into that, and don't throw a lot of rubbish around, he said that to me and Commandant Duppie, he said that Duppie would be the Commandant of operations.

MS VAN DER WALT: This is the applicant Johan Du Plessis?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Major Smit?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Major Smit would be in command of the guards.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you explain how this camp was organised or managed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Guards were put out at the gates, the bottom in order for no one to just come in and out as they wish.  There was a radio person who worked in shifts, guards who walked around and some of us had to patrol the roads etc in order that if we saw something wrong we could report back.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I just ask you, you talk about guards who walk around, it is maybe an expression that no everyone will understand?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It's guards who do not just stand still at one post, they roam around to make sure that there are no problems anywhere.

MS VAN DER WALT: The people who gathered there, could they leave the camp if they wanted to?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: First they had to ask permission to leave?

ADV BOSMAN: Who had to give this permission Mr Fourie?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If for example Commandant Duppie as we called him, if he was not there then they had to come and ask me because I was the Camp Commandant and they had to tell me where they were going.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie I would like to clear something up.  It seems as if you were responsible for the households of this camp, you were not really involved with instructions and orders and that you just stood in in order to give leave to certain people.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I accepted it as such.