Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

DR BORAINE: Okay.  Then the last question, the interview and you have had many interviews, I accept that, this was a very special interview because it was then shown throughout South Africa and there was a great uproar about this video and people must have talked to you about it, even if you didn't see it.  But you were certainly interviewed and there in some card, you said yes, this is my handwriting, yes, I had the date stamped.
 Do you think it must have been another card or how do you explain the difference?  I am talking about the card number K569?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.  No specimen of urine, no weight, just a blank card.

DR BORAINE: Do you think that Katiza Cebekhulu because there is a card for him, must have come when you were not there?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I should think so, because I don't remember even this Katiza in my clinic.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mrs Sisulu, did Dr Asvat make home visits to  patients?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: And when he made those kind of visits, how did he record the medical history of the patients that he saw?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have no idea, because even when he visits those patients, he will just say I am going out for a visit, he would not even mention that I am being called at Winnie's place.

YASMINE SOOKA: So it is quite possible that he could have gone to the house to see Stompie but you would not have known about it?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Absolutely, absolutely.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also mentioned in your evidence that the reports you heard on the Mandela Football Club were through the newspapers, but were you personally ever advised by the residents in Soweto of the incidents involving the Mandela Football Club?

ALBERTINA SISULU: They used to come, individuals used to come, sneak in and report whatever is happening in their homes.  I used to refer them to the police to report.

YASMINE SOOKA: But you did then receive reports yourself?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, yes, from individuals.

YASMINE SOOKA: My last question is is it possible that someone other than yourself or Dr Asvat, could have completed any of the cards?

ALBERTINA SISULU: The fact that there was this lady when I was not there, this pregnant woman, it is quite possible because I don't print when I write.  I don't.

YASMINE SOOKA: But Mama, was it the practice of Dr Asvat to have someone filling in for you on the days when you were not there?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Supposing that day he is being helped by somebody, somebody had to do my work and write the cards and do everything.

YASMINE SOOKA: One final question, if what I hear from you is correct that when you filled in a card, it was automatic and routine that every patient who came in would have his urine sample taken and the weight measured, so all the cards that you completed, would have those particulars?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mrs Sisulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Khosa Mgojo?

UNKNOWN: Mama, I am sorry that I have to ask you this question, but it is going to be very simple.  You are the mother I adore, and I have adored you for years, I am sorry that I have to put questions to you.
 I just want to get a picturesque about the episode, this sad episode during Dr Asvat's death.  There you heard the bangs and you screamed and there was the picture of an ambulance chasing the two young men.  Later the ambulance comes back and says that the young men have disappeared into the park and the policemen had come.  Do you know who had called the police?

ALBERTINA SISULU: You know, there were so many people helping me now, because I was really shocked, I was running around, I didn't know what to do.  They were helping me.  I think the people must have called, or the ambulance drivers when they failed, must have gone to the police station.
 But I did not call the police.

UNKNOWN: Okay, the people are there in the park.  Did the police do anything to try to get these people from the park?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't know anything.

UNKNOWN: You don't know anything?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif, yes?

MR VALLY: Mrs Sisulu, I just want to point out one thing to you which is on page 119, second section 29, there is no dispute that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela did go and see Dr Asvat with Katiza Cebekhulu.  I will read out a small portion of what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela told us.  You won't have that in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness does not have that.

MR VALLY: Yes, I will just read out a small portion.  I started off by asking Mrs Madikizela-Mandela there is an allegation, it starts off at the bottom of page 118 section 29, there is an allegation that you saw Dr Asvat in his surgery the day he was killed, on the 27th of January 1989.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, no that is nonsense, Mr Chairman.  I saw Mr Asvat, Dr Asvat once when I took Cebekhulu.  I asked did you see Dr Asvat at all in January 1989 besides the time you took Cebekhulu.  Answer, I have no recollection of seeing him again.  Question, so the last time you saw Dr Asvat before he was killed, was on the 30th of December 1988?  Answer, I last saw Dr Asvat to my  memory when I took Cebekhulu to him.  Question, do you know what date that was?  Answer, I said I would have to refresh my memory, I cannot remember those dates so long ago, but it was at the end of the year.
 So on Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's own evidence, she did at the end of 1988, she wasn't clear on the exact date, at the end of 1988, she did go and see Dr Asvat with Katiza Cebekhulu.  Having said that, Mrs Sisulu, do you normally work between Christmas and New Year?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.  Except the Christmas holidays when everybody is off.

MR VALLY: When you say Christmas holidays, you mean the actual day, Christmas day, Boxing day etc?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: And if you were not there, do you ever recall a pregnant nurse filling in for you in December 1988?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have no knowledge of that.  I only heard now that there was a nurse when I was not there.

MR VALLY: All right, thank you Mrs Sisulu.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to point out before I ask Mrs Sisulu to stand down, that Commissioner Ntsebeza is, when he asked that question, because he is not only asking that of Mrs Sisulu, he is vocalising impressions as he is listening to the evidence, and he is saying those are prima facie impressions to which all of us are entitled and he can obviously change the tenor of the impressions as the evidence unfolds.
 He had hoped that his comment as he made it also to other people, would illicit an expression of views that might persuade him to change the particular impression that he has formed and actually that is all that I think he is doing.  You will recall that he did that last week with a few of the leadership, when he asked them whether the way they were operating, was that they were taking account of at least two facts, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was a formidable political figure, leader in her own right and secondly that she was the spouse of a greatly revered leader and that perhaps this had a very significant impact on how people were operating with regard to her.
 Thank you Mama, you may stand down.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: We now call Zakhele Mbatha?

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I thought we are calling Mr Dlamini first?

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  We will change that and we will call Mr Thulani  Dlamini.   Good day Mr Dlamini.  Will you be speaking in Zulu or English?

MR DLAMINI: I will speak in Zulu, but I am not feeling very well, I am having a tummy problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to say settle down, but I can't say that to you comrade Walter, I will wait until - anything you want to do, you are free to do.  I would like to find out as to whether you are able to give testimony?