Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling Mr Makoma?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Makoma, where are you staying at the moment?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: I stay at Khayelitsha, Site C.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you work?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No, I'm unemployed.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you doing anything useful?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: I'm studying, I'm corresponding standard ten with a certain college.

NORMAN ARENDSE: What is that college's name?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: It's Lyceum College.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How old are you now?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: I'm 22 years old.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you were involved in an incident with Walter Tanda.

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: In 1992, is that right?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: At that time you would have been 16, is that right?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, that's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: At the time, were you a member of the PAC?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, that is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you a member of APLA?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No, I was only a member of the task force.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The PAC task force or APLA task force?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: The PAC task force, that was the defence unit of the PAC that was being trained by the members of APLA.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Who was the commander of the task force you were a member of?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: It was Tanda.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did he recruit you to join this task force?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, I was recruited by him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you - tell us about, were you at school at the time?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, I was still at school, I was doing standard seven.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, this particular incident at Khayelitsha, when did you first become involved in it and how did you become involved in it?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Tanda came at my home, he asked me to go with him as a member of the PAC and as a person who was in the leadership, that was the normal thing for me to do.  We went to a certain house at Site C where we found two comrades.  He introduced them as PAC members and he told them that I was also a member of PAC.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did they have names and if so, what were their names?  Did he introduce them to you by name or code-name?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: He introduced them as members of PAC, he never mentioned their names.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you ask their names?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No, I never asked.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Why not, isn't that odd?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: It is not a normal thing to do, to know the people with their names.  If you are told that these comrades are members of PAC, that should satisfy you.  I was not interested in knowing their names.

NORMAN ARENDSE: After you were introduced, what happened then?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Tanda left the house and he said he was coming back.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And he came back?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, he came back.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did he come back with anything?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: He came with a bag, a blue bag with firearms inside.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you get a firearm?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, I got an AK47.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you going to do anything with this AK47?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: He told us after some time that we are going to do something because we checked these firearms, if they were working properly.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Before this, did you handle a firearm before this particular or before he gave the AK47 to you?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, I once handled a firearm.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And that was during training I take it?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: This particular operation, had you been on one like this before or was this your first operation?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: That was my first operation.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did he tell you that you were now going to carry out an operation, this is now Tanda?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, he told us that there is a work that we are going to do.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did he tell you when it was going to happen, where it was going to happen, who was going to be the object of this operation?  Did he give you any details?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No, he never gave details.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So what did you do then, did you leave the place?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, he told us to leave the house and we all left together.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And where did you go to?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: We went - we took a direction to Site B, we took the road coming from Site B, we went to Site C.  We took a road from Site B to Site C.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you on foot or did you drive?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: We were on foot.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And when you got to Site C, what happened?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: He instructed me - as I was standing next to this road from Site C to Site B on the left-hand site, he instructed me to stand there and if I see the police van I was to give a warning by shooting only once with this AK47.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And did you do so, did you shoot once?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: The van never appeared from my direction, it appeared from another direction.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And what happened?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: There were gunshots, a lot of them followed, a lot of gunshots and a van passed next to me and it stopped at a distance and Tanda gave an instruction for us to leave the place.  We went back to the veld and through the veld we went to Site C.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you fire any shots?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know who fired the shots?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: It's Tanda and the other comrades, but I don't know among them who shot but I know that they were the people who were shooting because they also had firearms.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know whether anyone was injured or killed during the attack or as a result of the attack?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No, I do not know.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Why did you form part of the attack, why did you become part of the operation?  What motivated you to become part of the operation?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: As Tanda was the leader of the task and as a member of the PAC, when he came to me and instructed me to do something I went there willingly because I knew that I had a perception that this is done to further the aims of PAC.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you - and I'm referring here Chairperson, to page 39 of the bundle.
	You also applied for amnesty in respect of the attack on the St James Church in July 1993, is that correct?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, that is so.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You made an application there and also a full disclosure and also motivated why you were involved in that attack, you can remember that?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, I do remember.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you've been granted amnesty in respect of that incident?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes, that is so.

NORMAN ARENDSE: This particular incident, were you arrested at all?  Did you appear in court?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: No, I was never arrested and I never appeared in court.

NORMAN ARENDSE: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just one Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Makoma, why do you apply for amnesty for this incident, you never shot anyone?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: I'm applying for amnesty because I was there, even though I didn't shoot anyone.

MR MAPOMA: Do you associate yourself with the shooting that took place on that day?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: Has anyone been able to ascertain what the police docket has got to say about this, what is contained in it?  Were there any victims?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Advocate Sandi, no.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I confirm Chairperson, there appears to be no victim in this matter.

DR TSOTSI: Did I understand you to say that you belong to APLA task force, not the PAC task force?