Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we didn't speak to each other.  We couldn't see each other.

MR MALAN: According to the evidence also at the trial, evidence was given that some of the attackers moved around the bakkie and shot the kids from the back and from the side there, broke the windows.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I don't know anything like that.  We didn't do that.

MR MALAN: And that the canopy was almost shot like a sieve, if I may paraphrase.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, the canopy was shot at.

MR MALAN: You say you saw these people, but you never saw that any of them were children?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: You heard them scream, but you never heard that it was children screaming?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I couldn't hear that they were children because I was running away. I couldn't tell whether the scream was from children or adults.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  In your application on page 2, you state that your brothers, Qeda and Sibusiso were arrested and convicted and sentenced of this offence, but you haven't mentioned them here.  Would you explain why you haven't mentioned, it's page 2 number 9.4 of his application, 9(a)(iv).  My question is, were they involved in this incident?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No they didn't, they were not involved.  They didn't take any part.

MS THABETHE: Were they ever at the scene of the crime or of the offence?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, they were not.

MS THABETHE: You see my instructions from one of the kids who was shot, he claims that he was there and further that he pleaded with him not to shoot him, but he nevertheless shot him.  What is your response to that?  His name is Bongane Kuala.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: That is a mistake, a very big mistake, because he wasn't even there, he was at eSnatengi.

MS THABETHE: You have also stated that it was not your intention to kill the school children.  My question is, if you had known that this cream-white bakkie was carrying school children, would you still have attacked it?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we were not going to attack because we would have known that there were school children.

ADV DE JAGER: But suppose the driver was Makeke?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: If we knew that Makeke was transporting school children we were not going to ambush the car because we would have known that if we attack Makeke, these children were going to be hurt or injured.

ADV DE JAGER: But now you've attacked Mr Ngobane, you didn't attack Makeke.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: That was a mistake that it wasn't Makeke as I've already mentioned that we didn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: With your permission Ms Thabethe, your attention has now been drawn to paragraph 9(iv).  I intended to ask questions after Ms Thabethe has concluded her cross-examination, but maybe in the interest of time I might as well just put this question to you.  In that paragraph you state quite unequivocally the following, "that a fight broke out between the IFP and the ANC members".  Let me pause there and ask you if, was there a fight as alleged in your response to paragraph 9(iv) of your application.  Now you will recall that we already have had an application by yourself through your lawyer amending the date or the month that's reflected in that paragraph as February to March and we have done so.  So you say on the 2nd of March a fight broke out between the IFP and the ANC.  Was there a fight between the ANC and the IFP that broke out on the 2nd of March 1993?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Not on the 2nd of March.  There was a fight on the 26th of February.

CHAIRPERSON: So your evidence as it stands under that paragraph is incorrect?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I wouldn't say it's a mistake, or it's incorrect.  What I can say is that there was fights between ANC and IFP from the 26th of February.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about the 26th of February, Mr Zulu.  I am talking about what you have alleged in your application as the 2nd of March 1993, not the 26th of February.  Was there a fight between the ANC and the IFP on the 2nd of March 1993?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: On the 2nd there was not fight.  We were waiting, or we were about to launch an attack.  We don't even know whether he had a gun or not, we don't even know whether he shot or he didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a fight between the ANC and the IFP on the 2nd of March 1993?  I expect you to say yes or no.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who against the IFP attacked you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We were the ones who actually attacked them when we went and ambushed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you went and ambushed Makeke.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody from the IFP attacked you.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I knew that Makeke was always armed.  After we shot we ran away, I don't know if he shot back at us.

CHAIRPERSON: You proceed to say "6 Inkatha members were fatally shot."  You proceed to say you do not know their names.  How did you know that 6 IFP members were fatally shot?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I heard from the radio that 6 children were killed and 15 of them were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the radio say these were IFP members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: The radio said children, they didn't say IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your statement saying 6 children were shot?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Even though my statement is not saying so because for all I knew there were other adults in that car apart from the children.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your statement saying anything about children having been shot at?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I don't think that I've mentioned anything about children but what is mentioned on my statement is that IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: It is incorrect to state that the radio said anything about IFP members having been shot at.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I wouldn't say it's a mistake because this is what I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you actually gave us incorrect facts.
Can we have your response?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, it was a mistake.  The reason is because I heard that 6 members of IFP were killed.  It wasn't so clear that it was 6 children of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you may proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  Mr Zulu, now how is this act of killing school children associated with a political objective?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Children are not associated with politics.  It wasn't our intention and aim to kill children.  We wanted to kill the person we wanted to kill.

MS THABETHE: No further questions Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MR MALAN: May I just on this last point, I understand your evidence.  I want you to again consider and give me an answer.  If the person you wanted to kill who you suspected to be your target, the driver, got away and 6 children died and 9 or 15 others heavily injured, seriously injured, how can you convince us that you were really targeting the driver, if the driver escapes, certainly wounded, but he escapes?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I would like this Committee to believe what I'm saying because the reason I'm here is because I cannot rest because of what I have done to those children, but it wasn't my aim to aim at children and I wasn't forced by anyone to come before this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla, do you have any re-examination?

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, yes, just one or two points I'd like to clarify.

MR SARDIWALLA: You were involved in this incident in 1993, on the 2nd March 1993, is that correct?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR SARDIWALLA: You made your statement some three years later as your application to the Amnesty Committee on the 2nd August 1996?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that's correct.

MR SARDIWALLA: When making that statement did you apply your mind to the very specific fine details about the conflict and the incident?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I did remember some of the things and some I cannot remember so well, but I can remember most of the things or the circumstances surrounding this incident.