Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: So how was the killing of those people a protective measure for the community?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: The killing of the members of the Youth League?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: It would protect the community because the community was complaining, they complained about the hijackings, the spaza shops were broken in.

UNKNOWN: Did you benefit anything from the killings, personally?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I did not benefit anything, sir, I was only protecting the community.

UNKNOWN: No further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

MR MAPOMA: Amongst the people who were killed on the 7th of December 1993, whom did you know to be a member of the PAC?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I did not know all of them, sir.   The slogans, or rather the clothing that they put on was written PAC/ANC, and they were together during their rallies at Hunters Field.

MR MAPOMA: Whom did you see wearing a T shirt belonging to the PAC amongst those who were killed?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I did not specifically look, because I was part of them when we go to the rallies, I cannot tell their by names.

MR MAPOMA: No further questions, thank you, sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: In your evidence, Mr Mokoena, you said that when you went to round up, who was the person, Mavuso, you asked permission from his mother and sister and you said that the commander wanted to see them.   Did they say anything?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I was listening with my two ears, sir, they asked, "Where are you taking him to?", and their reply was, "Comrade Dondolo Mchebe wants him, he wants to know something from him".

MR MALAN: Did they ask you what it was about?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Can you repeat yourself, Chairperson?

MR MALAN: Did they not want to know why Comrade Dondolo wanted to see them?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: They wanted to know, sir, but we replied by saying he wants to ask them questions, but we didn't tell them the nature of the questions.

MR MALAN: Did they ask about the nature of the questions?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: They asked me, sir, and I told them that I do not know what kind of a question he's going to ask him, because we were only ordered to fetch him.

MR MALAN: Did he, at that stage, ask any questions, this is Mavuso now?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: On our way he was talking to Themba and Shongwe, I only held him, he was talking to them.

MR MALAN: Did he want to know why you were taking him, did you hear what all the talking was about?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: They were facing each other and I did not hear what they said.

MR MALAN: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, chairperson.   Mr Mokoena, you said sometimes you used to attend the rallies with them at Hunters Field.   Did I hear you correctly?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: You heard perfectly well, sir.

ADV MOTATA: Now when you attended these rallies, under which umbrella were you attending, SDU, ANC Youth League or PAC, under which umbrella were you attending?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I cannot tell specifically in which year did we go to the rally, but I think Mandela was present at that rally.

ADV MOTATA: Did you belong to the ANC Youth League?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I did not catch your question, sir?

ADV MOTATA: I say you personally, did you belong to the ANC Youth League?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: No, I was a member of the Self Defence Unit.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena, you may return to your seat.   Yes, Mr Madasa?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Chairperson, before I go back to my seat, I want to ask for forgiveness from the parents of those who I killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do you know their parents?   Yes, you say you want forgiveness from the parents of the persons?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I'm saying the parent to Mavuso and the parents of (Indistinct) Motsi, I really ask for their forgiveness, but I did not take part in the assault of Motsi.   I'm asking for forgiveness from Mrs Mavuso.

CHAIRPERSON: I think after this you may have the opportunity to go and speak to Mrs Mavuso if she's here.  Is there anything further you want to say?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Sir, I'm not only speaking on my behalf, I'm speaking on behalf of all the members of the Self Defence Unit, all the mothers who are gathered here today, please forgive us, I'm not saying forgive me, forgive us all.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that you are asking for forgiveness.   Are you doing so because you recognise that what you did was wrong?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: That is correct, My Lord, I'm asking for forgiveness because I realised that what I did was wrong.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mokoena, you said you are not only asking for forgiveness for yourself only, but for your co-applicants and co-members of the SDU, is that right?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Chairperson, I have already said I am not only asking for forgiveness for myself, as the SDU's we ask forgiveness for what we did.   We had reasons.

UNKNOWN: Now as you are seated there, Mr Mokoena, do you have mandate from your comrades that you should speak on their behalf and ask for forgiveness from families of the victims?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: They did not mandate me, I am doing it out of my person.

UNKNOWN: Have you, as members of the SDU, either before this week or during the course of this week, discussed this and shown, or any member shown remorse of the wrong deeds you perpetrated?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: That is correct, My Lord.

UNKNOWN: And would we be understanding you to say, whilst you ask for forgiveness on behalf of everybody, your deductions are that whilst discussing this, other members of the SDU showed remorse?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Yes, because we are here, sir, to ask for forgiveness, to ask for amnesty.

UNKNOWN: As we are seated here, we are not aware of the individual members of the families, but we do have a list of the next of kin, when you say they must forgive you, are you saying you want to approach them before you take your seat, to ask for that forgiveness, or are you merely saying it from where you are seated, that you ask for forgiveness?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I would like to go to them, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the committee will take note of the statement that you have made and the forgiveness that you have asked for.   I would suggest that after the committee has risen this afternoon, you approach your counsel and discuss the matter with him.   Do you understand that?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Thank you, sir.   Is there anything arising?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mokoena, you may return to your seat.   Yes, Mr Madasa?
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I call Luphindo, Thobile Luphindo, No 11.

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: How old are you?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I'm 35.

UNKNOWN: How far did you go in school?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Standard three, I went up to standard three, sir.

UNKNOWN: In December 1993, did you stay at Moleleki?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Which extension and block?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: Block D, Extension 2.

UNKNOWN: Right, in the SDU were you an operator or an ordinary patrol?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I used to patrol.

UNKNOWN: Did you capture any people in connection with the killings of December 1993?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: No, I did not capture anyone.

UNKNOWN: Were you present when the victims were put in the shack?

THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO: I was absent.

UNKNOWN: Did you go to Blanko's place when it was burning?