Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

MR LAX: While you are busy, can I just ask something.  There is a term that is used throughout this post-mortem "completely decomposed".  It appears in two, the hand-written one, and then the word decomposed is used, body completely decomposed, decomposed on the other pages.  We are told there is a page missing and I would have preferred you to see the complete document, so that you can have a complete picture.  For example page, of these documentation, page 69 is from a different post-mortem, so it would appear on the face of it, and then there is a page missing ...

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Lax ...

MR LAX: Yes?

MS THABETHE: I've got an original here, but I don't know whether I can hand it in.

MR LAX: No, what we should probably do is copy the missing pages from that original, distribute them to everybody, but perhaps for the time being, if Dr Naidoo can refer to the original and not the photocopies, that would be a good start at least.
	All I was really wanting to get from you was a sense of, we see this term used here, and firstly, what in your view, does it mean, and secondly does it have any specific, is it a term that is used with a specific meaning in the context of post-mortems or is it just a generalisation?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Firstly, decomposed, completely decomposed would correctly mean so surviving soft tissue.  But often times, this is a loosely described entity, there may still be some surviving soft tissue, but it is such a process of advanced skeletonisation, it looks to be just bone and this term is often loosely used.

MR LAX: We heard yesterday about the difference between completely decomposed and skeletonisation and there was a distinction drawn between the two terms that if a body has become skeletonised, that would be different in other words there was no, there was no soft tissue remaining at all?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  Well, I could agree with that loose definition, that is completely skeletonised bone would almost be ...(indistinct) almost, a skeleton in a museum, just the bone, or even after several years in our context.  But a completely decomposed body would be just at the end of decomposition, and just attached by bits of a leathery ligament and ...(indistinct) in some sort of anatomical continuity.

MR LAX: Thank you, that is very helpful.

ADV BOSMAN: And that would be compatible with a body that had been laying in the veld for two months?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  There is a question I omitted to ask you Dr Naidoo.   With regard to the clothing, was there any underwear?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't hear the question, was there any...

MS THABETHE: Was there any underwear?

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any underwear?

MS THABETHE: Yes, besides the petticoat and the bra, panties to be more precise?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I did not record seeing a panty or any other underwear, apart from the bra and the petticoat.  Had they been there, I would have recorded them, so I must conclude that there was no panty or other underwear apart from a bra and petticoat?

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the clothes or portion of the clothing that you found when you opened the bag,  separately bagged?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No Mr Chairman.  Particularly the polo-neck jersey, they were all in such a way that the bones were in the clothing.

MS THABETHE: With regard to the bone structure, can you determine the size of the person whilst she was still alive, from the bone structure of the skeletal remains that you had?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  In terms of size, the bone structure can help to determine height, principally height alone.  One important point is that a bone  appearance in the skeleton has a poor reflection of weight or shall we say, gird, abdominal gird, chest gird, it is a poor reflection.
	So whilst we can determine height, we can rarely say weight, because people, that will fluctuate from month to month and from year to year in adults.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

MR LAX: Doctor, can I just ask you something that has been worrying me, I should have asked it to you earlier when we dealt with the issue of heart attacks and so on, there is some evidence to suggest that if this is the same deceased, that Ntombi Kubheka was overweight?  Would heart attacks be likely given your understanding of the demographics, etc for an overweight African person, female of that age?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Putting it ...

MR LAX: I am just saying that is some of the evidence, I am not saying that we have necessarily made a finding that she was or wasn't overweight.  I am just saying, if that is the case, what is your opinion?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Okay, thank you.  I must try and be as brief as possible in the answer, obesity we know is a factor that leads to heard disease or shall we say, that contributes to a heart disease, but only in the instance where the other factors actually produce organic coronary narrowing.
	I think it is well accepted that obesity alone, like in the black female, will not cause a heart attack.  It is just a minor factor in coronary heart disease.  It is, in my opinion, it probably plays a lower role to the contribution of coronary artery disease, than do hypertension which is high blood pressure, and smoking and diabetes and genetic tendencies, those very factors.
	Just to summarise, obesity doesn't cause heart attacks on its own.  If it ever causes deaths on its own, obesity, it is something that is unknown to me, on its own.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: In summary, Dr Naidoo ...

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Sorry, I thought I was also going to be questioned on, you gave me this, Dr Chetty's post-mortem report.

MS THABETHE: Oh, okay.  I thought you had completed commenting on it.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, I don't know if you wanted ...

CHAIRPERSON: Those questions related to the question of fully decomposed and decomposed, which has been dealt with.  That is what Mr Lax raised.

MS THABETHE: Maybe what I have overlooked is the fractured ribs on both sides, recorded on page 69.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, I actually ...

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't that the wrong page?

MS THABETHE: Oh, have we agreed that it is a wrong page?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we haven't agreed, but it seems to be, but any event, did you find fractured ribs, you have mentioned some fractures?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: There were, shall we say there were defects and erosions on the ribs as I did find in the right forearm and the pelvis, which I was under the impression that was post-mortem artefacts.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something.  You have been given what appears to be an original?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR LAX: Is there a page 69 equivalent amongst that, and does it refer to fractured ribs on both sides?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Actually Mr Chairman, I actually brought this to the attention, I find that the problem is blurring.  When I looked at the docket yesterday, I phoned through to Phoenix mortuary to see, because this is really 530, to find out exactly does this belong to another post-mortem examination, and I believe it does, from what was read out to me on the telephone.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: What I believe is, in 1987 we didn't have computers at the mortuary any way at that stage, what I believe is that the typist, what they did was, make copies, typed copies in triplicate or duplicate, what was done was a simple page that was thrown off into a discard tray, from another post-mortem was used as the backing sheet on this one, this is a backing sheet.

MR LAX: Okay.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: A carbon copy backing sheet.

MR LAX: Just to save the forest, basically?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?