Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I can.  I will explain that the ANC, it wasn't its aim to kill people, their political opponents.  The ANC's aim was to fight the nationalist government.
	Any ANC member, bottom or up, knew that if you are ANC, you  shouldn't attack your political opponent, but because of the situation, we were forced to kill each other, IFP and ANC because a lot of people were killed, it was the situation that forced us to do that.

MS THABETE: Where is Mr Bukela Luthuli right now?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I wouldn't say where he is, because I have been in jail for a long time, but I know he is outside.  He is working, the last time I knew about him, he was working, but I wouldn't say where he is as it is, because I am in jail.

MS THABETE: Where was he staying at that time, and where was he working?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: At Macubeni.

MS THABETE: And where was he working?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In a contract, SICOR contract, he wasn't a full time, or permanent, he was in a contract with SICOR.

MR LAX: Is that SICOR, that is the big factory at Umkomaas?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, just one question, sorry I should have raised it earlier, where about did you get your weapon from, your gun?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I initially explained that the guns, the defence guns, we used to get them through donations.  The money that we used to collect by the community and the ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get your gun from?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I have indicated that it wasn't my gun, it was the community's gun to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had it in your possession when Mbutho came?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I was the one who was using it on that particular day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: If I could just follow up there, yes it is true it may have been the community's gun, and it was used by a number of different people, but you had it at your home, not so?  That is what you told us?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, the guns, we used to hide them away from the soldiers, because there were soldiers who were actually guarding the situation.  They would actually distribute the guns, it would be on reliable people like myself, I had a gun with me, not a shotgun, but just a gun, that we were using, they were home made and small guns, who were distributed amongst people because we couldn't put them in a centralised place because of the police.

MR LAX: We understand that, we fully understand that there were constant searches for firearms by the police and by the army and all sorts of people.  The question is though, who gave you the gun?   Who did you get it from, I can't understand why you won't tell us?  If you are here to tell us the truth, you must tell us who gave you the gun, it is really quite simple?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The person who actually showed us, it was Bukela Luthuli, as the person who was a Commander, the one who was in charge.
	He is the one who was in charge of the guns.

MR LAX: So did he decide who was allocated which firearms?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: When the community collected money for firearms, did they give the money to him, did he acquire the firearms for you, whether they were home made, whether they were shotguns, whether they were handguns, was he the one that organised that they should be bought somewhere or obtained somewhere or whatever?  That is what we are trying to understand?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It was a secret, he didn't, the community was not supposed to know all that because the spies would tell.

MR LAX: The issue is, did he organise all of that?  Yes or no?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, he is the one.

MR LAX: Now, one last issue, and I am sorry I didn't raise it earlier, it slipped my mind.  The attack on Jogolo, the attack in which Jogolo was shot, and he wasn't killed when he was shot, happened before this attack on Mkhize, is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Some people might argue that you killed Mkhize out of revenge for the attack on Cele, on Jogolo.  How do you respond to that?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Well, I wouldn't say that.  We were protecting ourselves and the community and the ANC members, we were not revenging at all, because a lot of people were dying there.

MR LAX: Well you see, in your application and I refer you to the translation at page 75, 10(b), you used the word revenge.  You say the IFP had attacked us before, and we also did this to revenge on the political situation?
	Those were your precise words there, and if you want to you can read the Zulu, it will be on page - he wrote it in English himself.  Sorry, it has just been clarified to me, just to put it on the record that this is actually your application as well, not a translation.
	Page 75, 10(b) you yourself used the words revenge there?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I will explain to the Amnesty Committee that these forms, I was not writing them myself, Ms Zulu was filling in the forms on my behalf, who is working there, because English is not my mother tongue, that is how she put it, she put it as though it was revenge.  I would apologise in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubane, any questions arising out of this last set of questions from the Committee?

MR NGUBANE: No, I have no questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Msani, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I have been requested to adjourn slightly earlier for the lunch adjournment and the lunch adjournment will last until quarter past two.
	We will take that slightly extended lunch adjournment now and recommence at quarter past two, with the continuation of this application.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS