Amnesty Hearings — Witbank — 2000-01-31

MR MBETHE: ;   He already, Madam Chair, has said that there were devices that were put in the bomb for it not to explode whilst they were travelling towards the place.  Now my question relates to what happened thereafter, you know, as to what time the bomb would go off, you know, as soon as they had left, that was never discussed and it was never a consideration.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't his response in that regard been made by him, over discussion around when the bomb would be detonated, was made and the discussion was it would be detonated during that morning.

MR MBETHE: Yes, Madam Chair, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You want to know the precise hour?

MR MBETHE: Yes, morning is a very long time.

MR KOOPEDI: If I could interpose, Chairperson?  The witness has testified that a remote control gadget was used.  This bomb was to be detonated by way of a remote control.  I think it should be clear in terms of his, of the applicant's testimony, that this was not a bomb that was to be left without caring as to what will happen when.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Mbethe is aware of that.  He's quite aware of the Mr Koopedi.  He wants to know whether there was a time limit specifically put to when the detonation would be made by the one who was going to handle the remote control.

MR KOOPEDI: ;   Okay Chairperson.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Thank you.  I've explained, immediately the bomb was in place next to the target, from then onwards the person who was in command could detonate it, there was no specific time, that 11 or 12 or whatever, but immediately the bomb was in place.

MR MBETHE: In other words, Mr Nyalunga, is that you assembled this device during the morning.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR MBETHE: And you left towards the targeted place.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

JUDGE MOTATA: But could you give an indication when you left for the actual target and left the car there and detonated?  That's what I think Mr Mbethe is looking for.  Would I be correct?

MR MBETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, yes, that is true.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think it was between 8 and 9 somewhere.

MR MBETHE: So your involvement in the whole incident simply to assemble the bomb and leave the area and there was someone who was to see to the explosion or to the time period as to when exactly this bomb would explode, would I be understanding you correct if I say that?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think I explained that he immediately parked the car, came back and joined us in the other vehicle and immediately detonated the bomb, we were together in the same car driving off.

MR MBETHE: So when the bomb was exploding, all of you were in a car and you were driving out of Witbank?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR MBETHE: In that case Mr Nyalunga, did you, did any of you, yourself or the other two comrades that you've told us about, not foresee that some innocent people might be killed by the bomb?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: That we did consider that the possibilities are there.  There was no way we could avoid it.

MR MBETHE: And in fact we know now that indeed innocent people were the ones who were affected by the bomb.  Now, I would assume, I am not necessarily well-versed with the operations in the military, but seeing that it was not in the field where two sets of armies were fighting, this was a place which would have casual people who would not even know about the bomb being in the place.  What is it that either you yourself or the other people who were involved in the car did in order to make sure that even though we don't have victims, that we must not have too much casualties, so to put it?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think we are talking about a situation that is completely different.  We were involved in an urban guerrilla warfare, it's not a situation where the enemy is that side and we are this side and you'll find that the enemy has placed itself in buildings, that there are civilian offices underneath.  We did consider that well other people will be injured, but there was no way you are going to stand there and write there "Warning important, people not to pass there" because that is going to happen, otherwise we won't achieve our goal, we are sorry for those who passed there during that time.

MR MBETHE: So basically what you are saying is there were no rules as to how this whole thing had to be done.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I do not understand the question you ask.

MR MBETHE: You've already alluded to the fact that there was a possibility that innocent people would be killed.  Now I would assume an operation like that one could have casualties, people who are innocent, but the target, at least the bomb should do the damage to the target.  Now the way I understand it, whilst you did consider that some innocent people might be injured ...(indistinct), but there were no particular steps that were taken in order for it to, or for you people to make sure that the real target is hit.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think that was considered by the mere fact of the time that was chosen, by that I mean, it was not yet that busy, particularly in that area.

MR MBETHE: In the morning?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: In that time in the morning, particularly down in that area next to those offices.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Wouldn't that be the time when all the people are going to work between 8 and 9, still moving in the streets towards their offices?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes, that will be the time but I think if it would have gone off later, it would have been worse, so during that morning, according to the information that we had, is that the intended targets report in the morning to get their task and then go out, so ...(indistinct) during the day you would find very few of them.

MR MBETHE: According to the information that you had, who gave you this information?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think I did explain to ...

CHAIRPERSON: The Commander, Mr Mbethe.

MR MBETHE: Yes, but my question essentially relates to the fact that whilst you had made considerations and you had taken steps to assure or to ensure that the target that you had was going to be there at the time or the people who you were targeting were going to be there at the time, but we know now that none of those people were hit by the bomb, so what I'm asking you is, did this not - did you not think about this prior?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Did I not think about what?

MR MBETHE: About the fact that innocent people, between 8 and 9 o'clock, this is the time when people are going to work.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: That was considered.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I rephrase your question, Mr Mbethe?

MR MBETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Mbethe is trying to find out is whether there were any steps that were taken to minimise casualties around the target, bearing in mind that the bomb was going to be placed in a busy area, frequented not only by the intended target, but by a number of civilians at about 8 to 9 in the morning.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think that was considered.  If the bomb was planted earlier in the morning, particularly in those offices, the people who were reporting in the morning were the police at that time and not necessarily civilians, civilians who will be caught in the cross-fire would be people who are passing, but these would not be intended targets, it's just unfortunate that some of them died, but that was considered.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you have any knowledge that the police would only report for work as late as between 8 and 9 in the morning and not at 8 o'clock or earlier?  Later than 8 o'clock?