Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-16

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, I do sincerely request amnesty.  I'm not sure if I can be given a chance to explain just what I seek amnesty for?
	Firstly, I would like to seek forgiveness from my former comrades who sent me into this country to fight the regime, which I did not do.  
	Secondly, I would also like to request forgiveness from the deceased's family.  I did not know that they were going to kill him.  When I abducted him, I thought that they were going to follow the legal proceedings of the land.   Yes I did play a role when I pretended to be an MK guerrilla and in that way I handed him over for them to kill him.  I am not a murderer, I have never killed a person but I did work with murderers, therefore indirectly I did kill.  I am not very different from Judas Iscariot who betrayed the Lord Jesus.

CHAIRPERSON: After you met him at the Pinetown post office, you said you took him to a pre-arranged spot.  What does that mean?  With whom was this arrangement?  Who was this person with whom you had pre-arranged?

BERNARD MWELASE: It was Col Taylor.  He is the person who was in charge of everyone, therefore the decision came from him and the person on the ground cannot defy the decision of the person in charge.  Col Taylor was the person in charge and every decision came from him.  We were under de Kock who had given us over to his friend, Col Taylor.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, when you saw this man for the first time at a house, he was with his girlfriend, at that stage you pretended that you were an MK cadre?

BERNARD MWELASE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he appear to be satisfied or believe what you said?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, he did believe it.  We even asked him if he is the person who handed that explosive device to these two persons, one of whom was deceased and he admitted that yes, he did and we asked him where he had got it from and he said he had been, he had received it from some guerrillas who had left and never returned.  He said that he had not used this device for a long time and we concluded that maybe it had become rusted, that is why it exploded when it did and he gave this device during the Inkatha/ANC war.  That is what he told us and he admitted to us that yes, it had been him who had handed over the device but that was the only one that he had had in his possession.

CHAIRPERSON: From that I conclude that he had no other weapons?

BERNARD MWELASE: I do not know with regards to his home, whether he had any stored there, but when we met him at the post office, he did not have any on him.  I do not know whether he had any of these around his home.

MR RORICH: Chairperson, that's the evidence for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RORICH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are there any questions you wish to put to him?

MR VISSER: Two matters, with your permission, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Mwelase, is my understanding correct that when the askaris and their handlers went from Vlakplaas to different areas in the country to attempt to trace terrorists and to identify and arrest them, that you would fall under the command of the Commanding Officer in the area in which you worked, would that be correct?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, that is correct.  We were under the command of Mr de Kock in Pretoria, but when we came to Durban we would be under Col Taylor's command, who was responsible for the Natal region.

MR VISSER: And that would explain why Col de Kock really didn't feature in this incident at all, you got your orders from Col Taylor?

BERNARD MWELASE: That's correct.  Col Taylor had his own unit and he was recruiting others as well.

MR VISSER: Now another matter which you mentioned, you said that you thought that Taylor would follow the normal legal procedures, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Just enlarge on that because by itself that question...

MR VISSER: Yes, well towards the end of your evidence you said that you handed the man over to Taylor and you then added you thought that they would follow the normal legal procedures, I take it, with him.  Is that correct?

BERNARD MWELASE: I was certain, it's not something that I thought. I was certain that they will investigate and know because they did the same with us.  They investigated and they interrogated us and they got the truth, I thought they were going to do the same with him.

MR VISSER: So, normally in your experience, when somebody was arrested, he would be interrogated, is that correct?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Taking your own example, there would be an attempt to recruit him to work for the Security Police, is that correct?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, that person will be recruited and if they cannot recruit the person, then the person will be prosecuted.

MR VISSER: That was my next question.  Now so knowing what you know now, according to your experience this was an exception, the fact that as we know now Mr Ninela was in fact murdered, that was an exception to what you were used to?

BERNARD MWELASE: When I was in exile as an MK, I knew that, that the Security Branch will sometimes kill you after they have arrested you, more especially when they arrest you when there is no witness to witness that arrest, then they will kill you.

MR VISSER: The point is that would be the exception, in your experience?

CHAIRPERSON: What does it matter?

BERNARD MWELASE: I wouldn't know because there are different units.  Some units may have done things like that but I didn't know.  My work was just to identify the people.

MR VISSER: Let's leave that then.  But normally if you had identified a person, that person was arrested, would he not be normally taken to a police station where he would be booked in and kept and charged later?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, the person was arrested and interrogated at the police station.

MR VISSER: That didn't happen in the case of Mr Ninela, did it?

BERNARD MWELASE: No, it didn't happen that way.  We left him in a certain forest, in an old house.

MR VISSER: And you yourself say that you're applying for amnesty for his abduction, so you knew he was being abducted?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, because we told him something which was false.  We told him that we were helping him to escape and that's why I'm saying, I'm asking amnesty for getting involved in the abduction of Mr Ninela.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So right from the word go, normal legal procedures were not followed, that's all I want to ask you.  Do you agree?  In the case of Mr Ninela.

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, we didn't follow the normal procedures.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gabriel.

MS GABRIEL: Mr Mwelase, I just want to go back to something you told us earlier on, when you went to the hospital.  Do you remember that area?  You went to the hospital to look at the brother of one boy who had been blown up.

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, I do remember.

MS GABRIEL: Okay.  You said,
"We went to the hospital to see this young man.  Taylor asked this young man who had given him the mine and he said Ninela gave it to him."

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, Taylor was asking him.  We were at the corridor of the hospital and he and Taylor were inside the ward and it was closed but we could hear what they were talking about, even though we could not follow the whole conversation, because we were also talking about how injured he was, therefore I could not tell everything Taylor had spoken to the man, but I did remember hearing Taylor asking him who gave him the limpet mine.

MS GABRIEL: Right then after you told the Committee that, you said next,
"Myeza then had to plan the abduction of Ninela.  We had to pretend to be MK cadres because if Ninela was approached by the police, he might divulge everything."
What did you mean by that?

BERNARD MWELASE: You mean in hospital?

MS GABRIEL: Oh, you meant the man in the hospital?