Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

PRESIDING OFFICIALS: DAY 3 - 23 MAY 1996
Reverend Bongani Finca - Chairperson
Ms Yasmin Sooka
Dr Mapule Ramashala
Mr Ntsiki Sandi
Ms Tiny Maya
Reverend Mcebisi Xundu
Ms Pumla Gobodo

CHAIRPERSON: We will all stand to show respect to the witnesses as they come in.  Could we all rise.  I wish to declare that the meeting of the Human Rights Violation Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is now in session.  As it is normal I would ask us all to stand to honour those who in the witnesses of today are going to mentioned who have either died or disappeared.
We remember Siphiwo Mtimkulu, Topsie Madaga, Sizwe Douglas Mazungula, Abraham Tamsanqa Tyhulu, Glen and Allister Whitley, Mtutuzeli Michael Heshu, Thozama Fibi Mani, Lundi Bekwa, Monwabisi  Kwanda Mbeki.  May they rest in peace.

PRAYER: God of our ancestors, we have come again today in this house because of Your will and because of Your power.  We thank you for Your greatness and the way You have kept us in a safe place.  We  thank you, Lord, for giving us democracy in our country and the freedom that we have achieved.  We also thank you for the blood that was flowing at the time so that we can get this freedom.  Here is a Commission, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it is meeting here again this morning.  Please, Lord, have Your mercy on us.  Have grace on us.  Be at the tips of our tongues and the tips of the witnesses tongues when they are about to expose a lot of events.  Soothe the wounds, the wounds that have been caused during this struggle.  Make them heal, Lord, so that all those who have died may please rest in peace under Your wing, Lord.  [Information lost due to recording] ...the deliberations of this Commission this morning particular the Chairperson of this session and those who assist him so that justice can be done and the stories can be heard.  Bless them as they deliberate.  Give them wisdom, Lord.  Go before them so that whatever they are going to decide will not emanate from their own qualms and wishes but from Yourself as the truth, the life and the way.  So bless us.  Give us time, for time is in your hands.  Lord, we are answerable to You for the way in which we use Your time.  So be present, protect us from the evil one.  
May Your Holy Angels be with us now.  We ask all that in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, God, three bodies in one, forever, amen.

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, we warmly welcome you to this sad and last session of our hearings in Port Elizabeth.  The last two days, Tuesday and Wednesday, have been moving days with a lot of pain and also with a lot of...  the joy of the possibility of healing.  I think we cannot thank the people of Port Elizabeth sufficiently for the wonderful support that the community of Port Elizabeth have given to the TRC hearings.  We have now had five hearings throughout the country.  This is the sixth one and nowhere, throughout South Africa, has the turn out been as wonderful as the turn out we have had in Port Elizabeth.  You have put to rest once and for all any thinking that the TRC does not have the support of our communities.  You have demonstrated very clearly that you stand behind this process of reconciliation through the process of telling the truth.  I also want to pay tribute to you, the people of Port Elizabeth, for the manner in which you have conducted yourselves in our hearings with dignity, order and respect for the proceedings of this Commission.  I read in the newspaper, I think it was yesterday, that they were estimating that we had, in this hall, close to 4 000 people, maybe a bit of exaggeration, but the dignity that this audience have accorded our hearings has been outstanding.  
It is not so easy to have so many people in one place and still feel that you are maintaining the spirit which should be maintained in these hearings of dignity and respect.  For that we thank you very much.
Today is going to be a difficult day.  We are having more witnesses who are coming to the podium today for this hearing and we are going to find it strenuous perhaps to try and control the time in time for this hearing to be finished possibly by 17h00.  We will again appeal for your co-operation, that you continue to behave yourselves in the manner in which you have done in the past two days.
I wish to welcome, on behalf of this region, those who are visiting, Commissioners and Committee members.  Dr Mapule Ramashala who will be co-presiding with me today.  She comes from Cape Town.  She is a Commissioner.  She was here yesterday.  She loves the Eastern Cape and we are delighted to welcome her.  It is this very beautiful lady next to me.  On the extreme end of this table we have Mrs Joyce  Siroke who comes from Johannesburg.  She is a Committee member of the Human Rights Violations Committee.  She has come this morning to attend our hearings.  Joyce, we are most grateful that you have taken the time to be with us.  I will now hand over to Mapule to call on the first witness to take the stand.
Dr

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson, I invite Mr Mkhuseli Jack to the witness stand please.
Mr MKHUSELI JACK D.S.S.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jack, you may be seated.  We welcome you and we are indeed very delighted that you have taken the time to come and testify before us.  You are very well known to many people in this hall.  Your contribution is recognised, it is well documented and it is respected.  We look forward to hearing you as you testify about your torture and detention.  You are aware, and I wish that all the other witnesses who are coming after you may also take note of this, that we had a court order which was issued yesterday.  According to that court order we are required to put a question to each witness at the beginning of the testimony.  The question that we are required, according to that court order to put to every witness, is to ask whether that witness intends to name Gideon Niewoudt as a perpetrator.  If a person says, "Yes, I intend  to name Gideon Niewoudt as a perpetrator", we then have to warn that according to that court order we are required to ask him/her that him/her does not name Gideon Niewoudt.
We have decided, and we thank the witnesses for co-operating with us in this regard, to honour this court order because we think it is in the interest of the work of the Commission not to defy it.  So we will ask you that question now, Mr Mkhuseli Jack.  Do you intend to name Gideon Niewoudt as a perpetrator in your testimony?

WITNESS: I think 70% of my testimony would have dwelled on the matters relating to the person you have mentioned.  However, in the interest of the country as a whole, particularly in the light of the international interest, in our contact in our land, I will set an example personally of trying to show that in South Africa we respect the courts of the land and I will try to do this under very difficult circumstances because I believe it would have been very good for me to come and put this story across.  But in the interest of the justice system of our land which is the backbone by which the international community looks upon us, it is important that I abide by this as a citizen of this land under the Constitution that I fought so hard for.  I will not mention him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mkuseli Jack.  The record will show that Mr Mkuseli Jack intended to name Gideon Niewoudt as a perpetrator and he has accordingly decided to abide by the order of the court.  Could you proceed, please?  I will ask Ntsiki Sandi to lead the witness.
Mr

N SANDI: Mr Jack, good morning.  Are you going to testify in English or Xhosa?

WITNESS: I beg your pardon?
Mr

N SANDI: Are you going to testify in Xhosa or English?

WITNESS: I will use both languages.
Mr