Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-11

MR DORFLING: I beg you pardon Mr Chairman, yes indeed, we mean the objector's affidavits.  It sets out the detail of the nature of the injury and the circumstances in which it was sustained.  In other words, whilst I'm in a jacking mode or running away, shot from behind, shot from the side, those particulars do indeed appear in the objector's affidavits.
	Then, Mr Bizos in the request for further particulars seeks the objectors to admit to certain facts, for example speeches of Mr Humphrey Ndlovu, radio transcripts which transpired between policemen and members of the ANC.  At present my position is simply this, that I'm appearing on behalf of nine individual objectors.  I'm not in a position to admit facts that don't fall within the ambit of the knowledge of those individual objectors.  I cannot therefore make admissions that might bind and might have legal consequences on parties on whose behalf I carry no mandate to appear.  
	Certain suggestions were made that we should be able to admit that the meeting that the meeting took place, for example, at the instance of the IFP.  Appearing on behalf of the objectors without knowledge of this fact I'm not in a position to either admit or deny such facts and therefore, their response in the request for further particulars that we're not in a position, it might have a lot of legal consequences and therefor, we're not in a position.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you saw a letter applying for permission to hold a meeting and giving reasons for the meeting, does that not put you in a position to answer the purpose of that march or the procession?

MR DORFLING: No, Mr Chairman, with the greatest respect, without having a mandate to take specific instructions from the party or entity involved, being the IFP in that instance, I'm not in a position to admit to those facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Will it be some time before you are going to get that information, or is it that you have had not had time to get instructions on that?

MR DORFLING: No, it's simply a question of me not having a mandate to appear on behalf of the IFP.  I'm simply appearing on behalf of nine objectors ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR DORFLING: And they don't have any mandate to either admit or deny that on behalf of the IFP.  Those are basically the points I wanted to raise, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else who wishes to make comments at this stage before we start hearing evidence of witnesses?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Mr Chairman, with your permission, the document that Mr Bizos referred to as Dr van Wyk's answers or replies to his question actually is a document with a heading that it is the replies of the legal representatives, jointly myself, my colleague Mr P A van Wyk and Dr van Wyk and therefor on behalf of those objectors.
	Secondly, insofar as the objectors we represent, on page 78 and further of the documentation the Committee will find an affidavit of Arm Johannes van Wyk, who is Dr van Wyk.  In particular, it answers all the questions raised by Mr Bizos.  Insofar as the grounds is concerned, he specifically set out the grounds as it appears from page 80 with reference to paragraph 4 and further.  I wish to refer to paragraph 6 where we set out in detail that paragraph 1:
"None of the applicants made a full disclosure of the relevant facts as is required by the section 21 of the relevant act."
Point 2:
"The applicants blatantly lie about their motives why they shot at Zulu marchers on the particular day,"
And that thereafter in full it is set out why we say so, or the objectors say so.  Mr Chairman, I do not wish to read out the full affidavit, but it is there for the Committee.  
	Insofar as the admissions my learned friend sought us to make, I wish to state the following:  It is our specific instructions as is set out in affidavits as well as in the affidavit of Dr van Wyk, that the objectors who we appear for were approached by the Indunas, the Zulu Indunas and informed them of a gathering on behalf of the King or in support of the King.  They reacted to that request and they wished to attend this meeting on behalf of their King.  
	They do no, or they are not aware of the applications made by members of the IFP and furthermore, are not aware and were not aware at least, of speeches referred to by my learned friend, Mr Bizos.   More in particularly, seeing that they did not even reach Library Gardens, they were not aware of that particular speech and cannot therefore associate therewith.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: They were not there.  They were not at Vosloorus.  I think it's common cause that the objectors which we act for were from Mansfield Hostel, which is not Vosloorus and that therefore, whatever was said by the IFP leaders there, cannot be made part and parcel of the objectors that that is them or that is their attitude Mr Chairman.
	They deny that they were ever involved in any attack on Shell House and will state that they were shot by the applicants without any reason.  In due course evidence to that effect will be led.  Insofar as it answers the questions raised by Mr Bizos, I wish not to deal with everyone as I've indicated to the court, that is it, unless there's further questions, Mr Chairman, or members of the Committee would like me to answer to.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I'm not going to ask you to reply to what I have heard and I have no doubt that the points that have been raised by you and that have been raised and the answers given are all going to form part of the evidence that will emerge during the hearing of the evidence, so let us just then proceed.  Thank you very much.

GEORGE BIZOS: We call the first applicant Mr Chairman, Mr Gary John Kruser and whilst he's being sworn in, may I hand up maps to be attached to the bundle with the next page at 255.  This is a map of the general area and reference will be made to the streets.  For the Committee's convenience we have highlighted the streets that are of particular relevance, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That's to be page 255 of bundle B?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin, I'm sorry, before the evidence of this witness is led, I omitted to ask you whether there was any comment you wish to make on the issues that we've been talking about.

MR CURRIN: I have comment on the issues, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Your full names for the purposes of the record?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: (sworn states)

GEORGE BIZOS: What is your present occupation?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm presently employed by the South African Police Services as a Director and as Head of National Protection Services.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible]
I'm with the rank of Director and I'm the Head of National Protection Services of the South African Police Services.

GEORGE BIZOS: When were you appointed to this position?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: About July '95 if I remember correctly.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what was your occupation during March 1994?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I was Deputy Head of the African National Congress, Security Department.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the Head of the Security Department?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The Head was the late Commissioner Gadu.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did he pass away?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: He passed away in '97.

GEORGE BIZOS: You have applied for amnesty and there's an amnesty application which is to be found on pages 1 - 8.  You also made a supplementary affidavit to your application for amnesty which is to be found on page 29(a) of bundle A.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You made two affidavits and a statement which are to be found on pages 8 - 29 of bundle A.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, before we go into any details, could you please tell the Committee, Mr Kruser, when did you become involved in political activity in South Africa for the first time?