Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR VISSER: Yes.  He tells me that he was present when you were detained and when you were at Fountain's and where he differs from your evidence is he says that he interrogated two of the three sisters and he mentions Mathapelo and you have told us that Mathapelo is - bear with me, Mr Chairman -is Daureen.  So, he can remember the name of Daureen, but he could not remember another name and I am prepared to accept that it might have, that it would have been you.  All that I am putting to you now is, is it correct that only two of the three of you sisters, not much turns on it, but two of the three of you were in the same room.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: The audio instrument does not work well.

MR VISSER: Perhaps point it upwards so that it can receive signals.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I can now hear, Sir.

MR VISSER: Yes, I just want to put to you what he can tell the Committee, is he ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: For how long have you not heard what counsel has said?  Did you hear him say that he was putting to you that it was not Molefe, but somebody known as Mmelesi, Sergeant Mmelesi?  Did you hear counsel put that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, I heard him saying Sergeant Mmelesi.

MR VISSER: Yes, perhaps, Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness, I should take it up from there again.
	Do you know a Sergeant Molefe, Mmelesi, I am sorry?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, I do know him.

MR VISSER: Is that the person that you intended to refer to in your affidavit when you referred to Molefe in 5.3 of your affidavit?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That Molefe was called Davu?

MR VISSER: Somebody quite different from Mr, from Sergeant Mmelesi, not the same person?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, that is a different person.

MR VISSER: Oh, all right.  Well, then let me tell you that Sergeant Mmelesi says he, in fact, interrogated two of the three sisters who were in detention and he specifically identified Daureen.  Was there a time that Daureen and one of your other sisters or yourself were, the two of you were interrogated by anyone during your detention at that time that you can remember?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I am requesting that you repeat your question again.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, sorry, with your permission, can I just ask this?  Were you ever interrogated by Mmelesi?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If Mmelesi had interrogated two of the three sisters would it be, would you be one, would you have been one of them?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: No, Sir.

MR BRINK: Mr Chair, may I suggest that if Mr Mmelesi is now in the hall, if Mr Mmelesi is in the hall, I wonder, to save a lot of confusion, if he could stand up and see whether this witness recognises him as being one of those who interrogated her.

MR VISSER: In fact, the same solution occurred to me, but it was to no avail, because he cannot remember, Mr Chairman.  The fact of the matter is not much turns on this, with great respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Well (...indistinct) waste time on it.

MR VISSER: I am not going to waste time on it, Mr Chairman.  I am not going to waste time on it.  The result of that is that we are left only with Sergeant Mamome and Sergeant Mamome, I put it to you, will deny (...indistinct) ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, I do not know whether your microphone is on, but I cannot hear you at all and I am listening to the Afrikaans.  So, either you must speak closer to the microphone so that I can hear you, otherwise I cannot hear the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman, I am sorry, I did forget to switch it on.  It is now switched on.
	I put it to you that Sergeant Mamome will deny that he assaulted you or anyone else during that period time or that you were assaulted in his presence by anyone that he knows about.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I saw him.

MR VISSER: Those are my questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, have you got any questions?

ADV MEMANI: No questions, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: No.  No further questions.  Very well.
	One aspect that was raised yesterday, perhaps you can tell us a little about it.  You have told us that when you were taken to Ramkraal Police Station there were female police officers there.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, can I just assist you.  Ramkraal is not a police station, it is a name for the former prison services here in Bloemfontein.  The building has been evacuated, it was known as Ramkraal, it is not a police station.

CHAIRPERSON: There were women officers there who gave you dresses, you told us.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct, they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any women police officers at Fountain Police Station or Fountain Security Branch offices when you were taken there?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to take it further.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps because it is relevant to your question I should just take up one further point.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: Were you kept over the weekend in custody as well after you were arrested?  Perhaps I should ask you how long were you in detention?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Three months, Sir.

MR VISSER: Over the weekends were you sometimes visited by female police officers to discuss with you whether there was anything that you had a complaint about?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I have not seen any female police coming to visit.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, may I ask a question which arises from Mr Visser's question?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  Now, did you at any stage see Erasmus visiting cells at the police station or at the prison?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: No, I did not see anybody.  I did not see Mr Erasmus.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you know him?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, I do know him.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.  We will take the short adjournment now.
WITNESS EXCUSED
HEARING ADJOURNS

MR STANDER: If we could just wait a moment, Mr Chairman.  Daureen Lekitlane is most probably still having tea.  She will most probably be here within a minute or so.  Unfortunately, I do not have any other witness to call.  Otherwise you must just grant me leave to go and call her.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am switching on my microphone (...indistinct) speaking, but rather just to amplify my voice.  I am hoping that ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: You will switch it on.

MR VISSER: It was switched on, Mr Chairman.  Can you still no hear me, Mr Chairman?  That might help.  Can you hear me now, Mr de Jager?

ADV DE JAGER: (...Indistinct) very well (...indistinct) can hear you.

MR VISSER: I am not sure whether it is being interpreted.  She says it is being interpreted, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, I was just trying to take up the lull that we had by wanting to ask your directions on a way forward today, but the witness is here, I do not want to delay proceedings.  We can do this later, Mr Chairman.  
EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER

MR STANDER: Can you just give us your full names once again and spell it please.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Mathapelo, M A T H A P E L O, Daureen Lekitlane, L E K I T L A N E.

MR STANDER: Tell me if I am correct when I say that you were also a member of the group of persons who were arrested when you tried to skip the country in the vicinity of Ladybrand?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct, I was present.

MR STANDER: You were brought to Bloemfontein later and that was on the sixth of April?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Nineteen eighty six, Sir.

MR STANDER: Where were you initially taken after you arrived in Bloemfontein?