Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I have no doubt you'll even tell me the name of the sheep.  (General laughter).  But I am talking about what was written on this piece of paper.

MR SIBAYA: What was written on the piece of paper?  Do you want me to tell you now what was written there?

CHAIRPERSON: I am waiting to hear.

MR SIBAYA: Do you want me to tell you what was written on the piece of paper?

CHAIRPERSON: I said yes.

MR SIBAYA: It was written the direction lines from Observatory you turn right past the stadium, Hartleyvale Stadium, you turn left after that, you drive over the bridge, Tafelberg will be on your right-hand side.

JUDGE WILSON: Is he reading something there, he is looking down?

MR SIBAYA: No I am making an example.

CHAIRPERSON: .... everything else that was on that paper, is this all it said?

MR SIBAYA: There is no more that was written there.

CHAIRPERSON: It says Observatory, turn right, past Hartleyvale Stadium, drive over the bridge, Tafelberg will be on your right-hand side, is that what you said?

MR SIBAYA: Heidelberg will be on your right-hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Heidelberg.

MR SIBAYA: Heidelberg will be on your right-hand side from the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any special reason why, after you handed this piece of paper to the police that you still each word that was on that piece of paper?

MR SIBAYA: You are asking for a reason, please clarify your question.  We were shocked first of all, this is why I remember everything clearly, we were shocked.  We wanted the police to hurry.  I memorised that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you memorised those words on that piece of paper, is that it?

MR SIBAYA: There is not one single word that I am mistaken about.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this a typed document or was it handwritten?

MR SIBAYA: Handwritten.

CHAIRPERSON: In English or in Xhosa?

MR SIBAYA: English.

JUDGE WILSON: Just one matter I'd like to clear up, I'm a little confused about, where were you building a house in 1993?

MR SIBAYA: Back home in the rural areas, Xolo.

JUDGE WILSON: And you had R40 000 or R43 000 to spend on it?

MR SIBAYA: Yes, it is the amount of money I had at the bank.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibaya, just about the piece of paper, when you saw something in this piece of paper talking about Heidelberg did you know what it was referring to?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know Heidelberg, I didn't know Heidelberg at the time.  Even the police said Heidelberg is up country, but what I thought that this car's registration number, that is why they had a map it's because they are looking for the directions.  I thought that they are looking for the directions because they are talking about Observatory and Heidelberg.  But the police said no, Heidelberg is up-country, maybe these people are on their way to somewhere else.

ADV SANDI: This Heidelberg was a new name to you?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know anything about Heidelberg here in Cape Town, I don't know if there is a Heidelberg here in Cape Town.

ADV SANDI: But you can still remember Heidelberg as one of the details that were mentioned in this piece of paper?

MR SIBAYA: In this paper as I am explaining it's says from the right, from Observatory turn right, past Hartleyvale Stadium, go left over the bridge, Heidelberg will be on your right hand.  It was not a lot that was written there.  There were not a lot of things that were written there.

ADV SANDI: You have given us the details of the directions that were being mentioned in the piece of paper, what I am trying to say to you even today you are still able to remember that one of the names that were mentioned in this piece of paper was Heidelberg, yes or no?

MR SIBAYA: I remember everything that was written on that piece of paper.

ADV SANDI: Now let us talk about Mr Mazibuko.  Did the police show any interest to talk to Mr Mazibuko?

MR SIBAYA: The police from Bellville South they said they wanted both of us, but I told Mr Nombowsa but he said I must go and look for Mazibuko when I was on my way from work on that particular Monday.  I went to the taxi rank and I talked to him and he said he's not prepared to be a witness there.  And I went back to the police station and then they said I must go back again and tell him to come, but they said they are not going to force him.  That was the third day.  I think it was on a Wednesday or a Tuesday, but I can't remember.  They said okay then don't mention anything about him.

ADV SANDI: What I am trying to say to you is that, do I understand you to say when Mr Mazibuko said he was not going to talk to the police the police did not take it any further, that was just the end of the matter?

MR SIBAYA: Nombowsa also went - it looks like Nombowsa also went to the taxi rank looking for him but he couldn't find him.

ADV SANDI: Lastly, can you talk about the person you mentioned in your statement as well as your evidence-in-chief as your girlfriend, have you changed your story now?  Were you making a mistake to say that she was your girlfriend?

MR SIBAYA: She was my girlfriend in that we met at the shebeen, went to her house that night, slept together and then the next day you forget about it, it happens.  She must be ashamed of it right now.

ADV SANDI: How many times did this happen, did it happen regularly or only once?

MR SIBAYA: It happened, it is only the one night that I slept with her.  I did not find her on the Tuesday, that was the end of it.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said she was always denying that she was your girlfriend?

MR SIBAYA: Yes she did deny because I never went to her again.

JUDGE WILSON: But how did she deny it, you met her on one occasion you told us, you left the next morning and you couldn't find her again?  Where is this denial that you were talking about Mr Sibaya?

MR SIBAYA: She denies that I was her man then.  She is now a family woman with children, I emanate with police inconveniently for her, that was the last time I saw her.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  Leading on from that question ...(intervention)

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman I have a few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You have?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Well please do put, I am sorry, sorry Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you.  Mr Sibaya ...(intervention)

MR SIBAYA: I am listening.

NORMAN ARENDSE: On the 13th of August 1997 this year Mr Killian met with Sergeant Nongausa and Sergeant Nongausa could not remember talking to you, he couldn't remember anything about the white Audi or you for that matter.  Are you still sure that you had any conversation with Sergeant Nongausa after the 31st of December 1993?

MR SIBAYA: He went to my house three times.  When I got home I was told that he'd gone to look for me.  The next morning he went to fetch me and took me to Bellville South. I did not, however, relate the story to him at all.  He just fetched me from my house.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, the references he made to Mr Killian who took him to Sergeant Nongausa, I think the reference should be to Mr Lubbe.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry, Mr Lubbe then.

MR PRIOR: If my learned friend is referring to page 6, page 8 of the second....

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: On the same page Mr Chairman there is also a reference to Mr Lubbe interviewing a Sergeant Ndoniswa on the 18th of August this year.  Now Sergeant Ndoniswa was on duty that night at the Guguletu Police Station and he cannot recall anyone coming to report an incident about a group of person wielding rifles on the night or the morning of the 31st of December 1993.	The name Ndoniswa also appears from the Occurrence Book Mr Chairman, we had a quick glance at it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just your comment Mr Sibaya.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just make it clear as to what it is that you want him to comment on.