Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I wanted just, it was going to be the last point I wanted to canvass with him.  Now Mr Pudumo, you indicated that you joined in 1990 and this operation took place in 1992, would I be correct to say at that time you were well versed with the aims and objectives of the PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you what were the aims and objectives of the PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will you tell the Committee about those aims and objectives?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The aims and the objectives of the PAC were to get back the land.  Those who illegally occupied the land were supposed to be removed, that is why we ended up pursuing the inspirations of the organisation, its because we wanted land.

ADV SANDI: Just further on that, did they tell you when this organisation the PAC was founded?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What did they say?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: They told me the organisation was founded in 1959 on the 6th of April.

ADV SANDI: Let's go back to the stage where you were travelling in the car, it was the taxi driver, yourself, Rasta and these two strangers.  Did you talk to each other, by referring to each other with each other's name?  Or call any name, genuine names?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Let me explain how the seating arrangement was in the car.  The first one was the driver and the passenger seat was occupied by myself and behind me it was Rasta Moloto, my Commander and next to him was Potsotso and on the right side was Bless, that is Johannes Leabe.  When we left Virginia, when we drove out of Virginia I asked them, I had known the driver already from the taxi rank and I asked him:  "What's your name?" and he told me that his name was Seun Dasi.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, was he not the driver?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Seun Dasi was the driver.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, other than Seun because you secured the transport in other means.  Just come back with the names of the people who were involved there, it was yourself, Seun Dasi.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I said leave Seun Dasi because he was the driver.  You didn't even get next to the place because you said:  "Stop here and turn back", if I understood your evidence.  Didn't you say so?  So I said those who went actually to the farm. It's yourself, Potsotso ...(intervention)

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No, My Lord, it looks like we do not understand each other.  Let me put it this way.  Rasta said to me:  "These people are going to remain here, we are going to the farm.  Me and you are going to the farm.  We're going to the farm, the two of us."  The car was stopped and Potsotso and Johannes Leabe remained behind and the driver Seun Dasi, those were the people who were left behind.  In other words it's only two of us, myself and Rasta, who went to the place of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I don't follow.  How would these others carry what you repossessed when you left them behind?  Because you said when you looked at the place you realised that you must be four there, because the other two would carry what you had repossessed.  Did I follow you correctly?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: What I said is that the driver and these two people were left behind.  My Commander said:   "After finishing the job we are going to call you to come and get items".  They were not going to fight, they were going to assist in carrying the items, that was the agreement between me and Rasta Moloto.

CHAIRPERSON: So, in your reconnaissance, you realised you could take the whole day in doing this because you would go attack, kill the people, then go back, call the people to come.  How long in our reconnaissance in other words did you think you can execute the mission, how many hours did you need to execute that mission?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We left the people at a place that was conducive enough for us to go and get them after we had done the job.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, how long, how much time did you need for this operation?  That's my question.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We would even take a whole day, Sir, we were trying to get the job done.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your reconnaissance what estimation did you give that the operation needs in terms of time?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We only managed to come to a point that the operation needed to be done midday and we would need so many people, that is why it was carried out in the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, we were on the objectives and all that and I'm sorry, I hope we haven't derailed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, Chairperson, in fact I will pass that one.  Let met - my last point to ask you, do you know the motto of the PAC?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was the motto?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: One settler, one bullet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was not one settler one bullet the slogan of APLA?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But I'm asking the motto of the PAC.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It's ...(ethnic).

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Lastly, why should you be granted amnesty in respect of this incident?  Tell the Committee.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The Committee should grant me amnesty firstly because we were doing what the organisation ordered us.  What we did was ordered by the organisation and that is why the Committee should grant me amnesty as requested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence, Chairperson and Honourable Members, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

JUDGE DE JAGER: One thing I want to ask you about.  Where was your wife staying at the time?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: She was staying with me in Virginia.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Wasn't she in Lesotho with the child?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No, we were in Virginia.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is it not the position that at the time you were actually a citizen of Lesotho?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I was already a South African citizen.

ADV SANDI: When did you become a citizen of South Africa?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I arrived here in 1985.

ADV SANDI: I did not ask you when did you arrive here, I was asking when did you become a citizen of South Africa.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: In 1990.

ADV SANDI: How did you become a citizen of South Africa in 1990?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: After given accommodation, I applied for a South African identity document.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I wish to refer you to page 37.  The Judge said, you made standard 6, you worked on a mine for seven years and you were unemployed at this stage.
" It is also not in dispute that the accused is a citizen of Lesotho and that he grew up in Lesotho and that he has a wife there."
Where did that Judge hear this and it wasn't disputed at the trial.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I recall this was one of the issues during the trial and I asked them: "Where am I now?" and what was emphasised there was that where they found me was my house and I asked them:  "If this is my house, why do these people tell me that I am a Lesotho Citizen?"  The Judge did not respond to that.