Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, I did not meet with the child.  I met a woman who came to tell us that Sonti has told her to tell us to go and fetch the child at a certain hotel.

MR MALINDI: Can you tell the Committee more about this woman who came to tell you to fetch the child?  When did she come and what did she tell you and what did you do as a result of what she told you?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: This woman came to us on a Saturday, but I forgot the month.  She told us that she'd been told by - that she's been sent by Nomasonto.  She came on Saturday and left the following day, on Sunday.  Sonti had told her that we should go and fetch the child at a certain hotel.  I told her that we do not have the passports, but she told us we can manage to go there using our I.D.'s.  We left the following day, we left to Lesotho and it was the first time that we went to Lesotho.  When we arrived, we could not enter the country using our I.D.s, we were told that we need to use our passports but we ...(indistinct) there, that is at the border gate.

MR MALINDI: After you were not allowed in, what did you do?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: We went back home.  When we arrived at home the two male people arrived with a car late in the afternoon and when they arrived, they told us that they had been sent by Sonti to bring the child and they told us that they have left the child at Mokhele's place.  She had told them that if they were not present at home, they should take the child to the Mokhele family.  They told us that they were sent by Sonti.  We left that night to Mokhele family and when we arrived there, we found the child there and we were also give the letter which was sent together with the child.

MR MALINDI: Who gave you the letter?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: These two people gave us the letter.

MR MALINDI: Did you read the letter before going to the Mokhele family?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: We read the letter, I gave it to my daughter to read it for me.

MR MALINDI: And what did the letter say?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: It was written in Zulu, but it was read by my daughter.  She's the person who can explain what was written in that letter.

MR MALINDI: Did you yourself see the letter?  Did you see the writing in the letter?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I did.

MR MALINDI: And do you personally know Nomasonto's handwriting?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I cannot read.

MR MALINDI: And then you say you then went to the Mokhele family after these men had been to your house?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, that is myself and my husband, we went to the Mokhele family to see the child.

MR MALINDI: And then when you got there, did you find the child?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, the child was there.

MR MALINDI: After the child - sorry Chairperson, may I rephrase?  The day that these two men came to your house and they gave you this letter and told you that they had left Nomasonto's child with the Mokhele family, did they say they left the child on the same day, or on another day?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, because we had just arrived from Lesotho, they arrived after our arrival from Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: After this child was delivered to the Mokhele family and there had been these meetings between the two families, did Nomasonto ever communicate with you to ask maybe whether you received the child or not?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, Chairperson, she never wrote us a letter after that.

MR MALINDI: To this day you have not heard from Nomasonto?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, we have never heard anything from her.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malindi.  Mr Visser any questions?

MR VISSER: Yes please, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Are you Zulu speaking?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, but I do understand Sotho.

MR VISSER: And your husband, is he Zulu?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is your family Zulu speaking?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, we are Zulu.

MR VISSER: Was Nomasonto also a Zulu?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, she was my daughter.

MR VISSER: Now you say that Nomasonto left, as I heard you, for exile in 1987, but it could have been around 1977, is that what you said?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I said 87, not 97.

MR VISSER: Now in 1987, was there a relationship that you knew about between her and Mr Tsietsi Mokhele?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I did know.

MR VISSER: I see.  And were they then both, Tsietsi as well as Nomasonto, were they then both still in South Africa?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, when I knew about their relationship.

MR VISSER: Did Nomasonto have trouble with the police while she was in South Africa?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, I don't remember.

MR VISSER: Did the police ever come to your home and harass you at your home?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: They did not arrest her, but they were looking for her.  They used to come looking for Nomasonto, that is after she had left.

MR VISSER: After she had left?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did they then search your home?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, they would come and search in all the bedrooms.

MR VISSER: Were they looking for letters?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: They told us that they were looking for Nomasonto.

MR VISSER: Were they also looking when they were searching, were they looking for letters?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: They said that they were looking for Nomasonto, they did not lift up the property while they were searching.

MR VISSER: Did you know that the police intercepted mail during those times when they were looking for people?  Did you know that?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It would be difficult, she's unlettered.  It would be difficult for the witness, she's unlettered.

MR VISSER: I'll accept that Chairperson.  Perhaps it's a matter more for argument, if necessary, than for cross-examination.  When Nomasonto wrote to you, you say you can't read, I take it you also can't write then.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you reply to Nomasonto's letters through someone else?  Did your daughter write on your behalf to Nomasonto?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, we did not reply, because we were afraid of the police, we were just receiving the letters from her, we never answered her letters.

MR VISSER: So you were aware that there was a danger in writing letters because of the police, is that correct?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now did I understand you correctly to say that after Nomasonto left South Africa to exile, she wrote to you four or five times?  Am I correct in what I heard you say?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And then at one stage you said, you later corrected it but at one stage you said the last time you received a letter from her was when she was pregnant, do you remember that?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, that was not the last letter, she wrote to us after that.

MR VISSER: Okay, that's how you corrected it later, but my point is this, were you first informed of the fact that she was present in a letter written by her to you?

MR LAX: Sorry, you used the word present, do you mean pregnant?

MR VISSER: Pregnant, I'm sorry, did I say present?  Pregnant.  Let me repeat it for you, I don't want to confuse you.  Did you hear for the first time that Nomasonto was pregnant from a letter that she wrote to you telling you that she was pregnant?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, that was the first time that she wrote to us.

MR VISSER: How certain are you that she left in 1987?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the answer elicited by Mr Malindi was that she was certain, she mentioned a date and said:  "I am not sure".

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, that's why my first question to her was how certain is she when Nomasonto left, because she also said 77.