Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-03

MR KEMP: Can you remember more or less what time it was
when you finished the preparations?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: We left the scene, round about four o'clock that afternoon, we left Port Elizabeth at four o'clock that afternoon.

MR KEMP: Where did you go to?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: We went back to Pretoria.

MR KEMP: And when did you arrive in Pretoria?

MR KEMP: I can't remember the exact time, but it was late that night, early the next morning. I'm sorry, we arrived there the same day.

MR KEMP: At a later stage did you hear that an explosion had taken place in Port Elizabeth?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: We heard over the media that an explosion had taken place and four people had been killed.

MR KEMP: Did you know who those people were, the people who were the target of this bomb?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, I did not know the people.  Even if they had conveyed the names to me, I would not have recognised them.

MR KEMP: After this had happened, were you part of the attempt to cover all this up, to cover the involvement of the security police?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes, I was part of this cover-up.

MR KEMP: You know today that four people were killed because of this action?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: To take those lives, how do you feel about that today?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: It is never an easy situation. I am not saying that because of a lot of experience, but it can't be an easy thing for any person to be involved in the killing of other people.  In my case it was very traumatic, it is still traumatic and it will remain like that.  Here, at this forum, I would like to convey to the family my sympathy and to say that I am very sorry that I had an instrumental role to play in killing their relatives.

MR KEMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, that is the end of the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: (Indistinct ... microphone not switched on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: We have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
	I am indebted to you, Mr Chairman.    If you can look at page 151 of the document, there is something that is not clear to me.  You describe a discussion here where you will see that De Kock has told me, on page 151.  Then you refer
that -
"Major Nieuwoudt also told me ..."

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was that during the same discussion where the three of you were together?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then you go further on page 152, page 8 of the application, where you explain how Nieuwoudt gave some detail. Was that during the same discussion?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes, it was happening at the same time.

MR BOOYENS: This was this discussion in your office at Rebecca Street at the technical division.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: That was the only time you had a discussion with Nieuwoudt?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, thank you, I have got no questions on behalf of Mr Snyman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions on behalf of Ras, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: No questions on behalf of the seventh applicant, Vermeulen, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.	If you will just give me a moment, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: While Mr Ford is busy, I want to refer to something at the bottom of page 151.  You are saying Nieuwoudt expanded and told us that
"The intelligence structures determined that discussions have already taken place between these people and members of the ANC, and this gave it a very actual dimension."
With this discussion is meant that it involved people who are in the process of defecting to the ANC, and they were regarded as ANC supporters, who were directly against combating the total onslaught.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that correct that that was told to you at that stage?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR FORD: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Du Toit, it is so that you were convicted in the criminal trial which was held. Is that correct?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That's correct.

MR FORD: And that conviction is presently on appeal, is that correct?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR FORD: And what is your sentence?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Fifteen years.

MR FORD: Now Mr Du Toit, at the time of this incident, you were relatively speaking, a senior officer, would you agree with that?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: To what are you referring? The period or the trial?

MR FORD: At the time when this incident happened, when you were confronted in your office and agreed to do the necessary.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: In our terms it is regarded as a middle manager.

MR FORD: There would have been no great terror for you in questioning an order from a senior officer? It would have been legitimate for you to have done so?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I think so, yes.

MR FORD: Or at least to understand the motivation behind an order with such drastic consequences as was the case in this matter?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Somewhere in my application I have explained the way in which we operated regarding this type of operations.  The motives were never questioned by members of the technical division.  We never evaluated or judged those decisions.

MR FORD: Yes, we know that you said that in your application, Mr Du Toit. What I am asking you now, is that would there have been any serious consequences in so far as you were concerned, had you at least asked for some explanation as to why you were being required to participate in this drastic operation?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, I don't think it would have had a drastic implication.  But I did not doubt De Kock's word and I did not doubt his integrity. It would not have a drastic impact.

MR FORD: Now you heard the questions which I put to Mr De Kock, concerning the legitimacy of orders and there must surely come a time when you question an order which is given to you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: It can be like that, yes.

MR FORD: Now if your evidence is to be believed, Mr Du Toit
"To taking of lives is never an easy decision."
It is a discussion you made and you don't seem to have had any difficulty in making.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: To give the necessary perspective, I am trying to say with that, that I did not have any say in the decision to take lives. I got involved through preparing the explosives.

MR FORD: You never thought of questioning that order in any way?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No.

MR FORD: Your involvement in these matters was somewhat removed, was it not?  Specifically in this matter, you weren't required to push the button.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Correct.

MR FORD: Your expertise was only used to plant the bomb.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That's correct.

MR FORD: Are you saying that even in those circumstances it was a difficult decision to make?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: It was, yes.

MR FORD: Well, then why didn't you even consider questioning, Mr Du Toit? If it was difficult, and you were not going to in any way compromise your position, why didn't you consider questioning?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I can't explain that to you. I will regard that as part of my work.  I did not question De Kock's motivation and/or neither his integrity.