Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

YASMINE SOOKA: And have you ever tracked down the other approximately 170?

WITNESS:   Some are dead and I've got a list of them and we've managed to trace a couple of them that we've spoken to.  They've made statement to us and some are convicted, some are in gaol.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions to be put to Superintendent Marion?  Mr Lasich.

MR LASICH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Marion, you said that Daluxolo Luthuli was arrested for, inter alia, attempted murder, murder and possession of firearms.

WITNESS:  That's my recollection, yes.

MR LASICH: /Now, I stand

MR LASICH: 4A Now, I stand to be corrected, but my recollection, and I'm speaking from my memory of the Msane trial, was that it was simply for possession of firearms, not murder or attempted murder.

WITNESS:   Well, my recollection of it he was charged for murder and attempted murder.  I could be wrong.  As I said, this comes from my personal recollection and, as I said, the dockets were missing.  There was no trace of it at Mpumalanga.

MR LASICH: And Zweli Dlamini's charges, when he was in Edendale Hospital, when he was shot by the military, what were those?

WITNESS:   Attempted murder.

MR LASICH: Not possession of firearms?

WITNESS:   No, no, he was found in possession - well, at that stage, you know, we were looking a bit stupid, but he was found in possession of this appointment certificate which purportedly gave him the authority to carry this HMC which we found in his possession, but he wasn't charged for it because he had this appointment certificate in his possession.

MR LASICH: Right, now you've given the panel a list of suspects and you've mentioned these appointment certificates and other aspects.  In a nutshell, no charges or no indictment has been forthcoming from the Attorney-General's office for either impersonating a police officer or being involved in hit squad activities?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR LASICH: Have you been given any indication as to why?

WITNESS:  Mr McNally is of the opinion that the matter would not succeed in a court of law.

MR LASICH: And you've mentioned that dockets are missing.  I don't want to make myself a witness, but it seems nowadays even more dockets are going missing at the courts.  Would you agree?

WITNESS:   Probably in Gauteng.  But in the normal

MR LASICH: /function of

MR LASICH: 5A function of the police at the moment it's not as high as it was in the past.

MR LASICH: I'm sure we can ask the prosecutors at the Durban Courts about that.  Mr Chairman, just one thing.  I didn't anticipate Superintendent Marion giving evidence.  I haven't prepared cross-examination on each detail, but I don't think it's going to take it any further and we have time limitations, so I have no further questions.  Thank you.

MR LASICH: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LASICH

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else?

MR VISSER: While they are sorting out their pecking order, Mr Chairman, may I ask my few short questions?  We heard evidence today, Superintendent, and you may have been present to hear the evidence, that is of the previous witness, Mr Mbambo, that - perhaps I should ask you this first - were you present at any time or all of the time during the Mbambo trial?

WITNESS:   No, I was not.

MR VISSER: You were not.  So it would be pointless asking you whether you know about witnesses who testified and what they testified to?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  It may be helpful if you have the information available to provide us with a list of the names of each and every Caprivi trainee that you testified about that were arrested and charged with offences.  That would be very helpful if you could do that.  I'm not insisting on it, I'm just making a request.  I think the committee members will also find that helpful.  The last thing, Superintendent, if I may ask you this, I take it, although you didn't say so, you were at all times attached to the South African Police throughout the evidence which

MR VISSER: /you gave here

MR VISSER: 4A you gave here today, throughout that whole period?  You were not a KwaZulu Policeman?

WITNESS:   No, no.

MR VISSER: So when you talk about, "The police", what you are doing you are distinguishing between the South African Police and the KwaZulu Police.  Am I correct in assuming that?

WITNESS:   I don't know in what respect you are talking about, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Well, when you say that, "We were looking - that is the police were looking for people to arrest them", you're talking about the South African Police.

WITNESS:   Well, I mentioned very clearly, the investigators and myself went to the KwaZulu Police and made enquiries there.  That's my clear distinction, yes.

MR VISSER: That's why I'm making it quite clear.  And is it correct that, from a police point of view, you were trying to do your job.  You were trying to find culprits or criminals.  You were trying to arrest them and bring them to court.  Is that a fair statement of the situation?

WITNESS:   That's correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR VISSER: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, we have no questions here in the back row.

MR COETZEE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Superintendent, one small issue first.  This person you referred to as Mandla Mchunu, who you found with a boot full of firearms, did he also have one of these police appointment certificates on him at the time?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct, he had an appointment certificate.

MR WILLS: /Okay, now,

MR WILLS: 4A Okay, now, in your investigations, in following up these matters, have you found that - have you had to speak to other South African Policemen, be they in any unit, the security branch, or whatever, to follow up these investigations against these people that you've been investigating?

WITNESS:   Well, Mr Chairman, you know, when we go to meetings, when we had this riot investigation unit, people from different units would be at this meeting where we would discuss problems, you know, with the riot unit, the security branch, the normal detectives and the riot investigators and these aspects would be discussed with regard to who was wanted and where they can assist us.

MR WILLS: Now, there has been evidence from Mr Luthuli specifically that his operations essentially were assisted by particular South African Policemen.  He referred to a person by the name of Pollberry.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he was military intelligence.  That was the evidence.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I withdraw that question.  The point that I'm driving at, concerning your later investigations into - from the time you became a member of the ITU - were there instances where the South African Police were not co-operative as regards your investigations?

WITNESS:   Well, there were a number of occasions where they wouldn't co-operate at all.

MR WILLS: My understanding is, having had dealings with a number of the members of the ITU and I refer specifically to discussions that I've had with - is it Superintendent Dutton or Colonel Dutton, as I knew him, and others, that, in fact, they became very unpopular as regards the main

MR WILLS: /stream of

MR WILLS: 4A stream of the South African Police.  Would you ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, is Mr Wills giving evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it sounds as though you are giving evidence, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: If I can just ask the question specifically in relation to this person.  I will rephrase the question.  How does the main stream - have you had any indications from the main stream police as regards whether they like what you're doing or whether they don't like what you're doing?