Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: We were from Tokoza.  The shortest route to Duduza is to go through Vosloorus.

CHAIRPERSON: From Duduza, you have the weapons, you are going back to Tokoza now.  What happened?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: That is what I am trying to explain.  When we were entering Vosloorus, there was a major roadblock.   I was supposed to turn left, but instead of doing so, I had to turn right, because I was running away from the roadblock, or I was avoiding the roadblock.   That path led me to Dawn Park, and I entered through Dawn Park.
	It was becoming darker and I parked next to the street lamp, because I wanted to communicate with the other comrades, as to whether they knew any road that was going to take us to the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us who was with you when you came from Duduza and when you went to Dawn Park, who was with you?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: On my way to Duduza, I was with comrade Thami, comrade Jamane and comrade Vusi.  We were four.

CHAIRPERSON: And Vusi?  Carry on.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When I arrived there and parked the car, comrade Vusi and comrade Thami, were at the back of the bakkie because the bakkie had no canopy.  When I was on my way to them, Vusi alighted from the vehicle.  He went straight to the behind of the car, he was relieving himself.  I was still waiting for him to come back, I was talking to Thami.
	Jamane was in the passenger seat.  There were traffic because we were parked next to the road.  The cars were moving up and down.  I noticed a car that indicated and it pulled next to the road.  When I was still looking at this car, the doors of this car opened.  Comrade Vusi, because he was nearer, he screamed or shouted that these people were bridging their firearms.
	What came to my mind at that time, because I knew that I had avoided the roadblock, I thought that maybe in that roadblock, there were people who noticed us or perhaps the people, those people were the people who were in the neighbour watch, who were patrolling that suburb that was for Africans and whites.
	When I went to the car again in front, I heard a gunshot and comrade Thami ran from the behind of the bakkie, he went to the front.  When this shot was fired, comrade Jamane was busy opening that back with firearms.
	When he opened the back ...

MR MASHABANE: Where did the shot come from, from your side or from the other car which had just stopped?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When this car parked, I went inside the car.  I don't know where the shot was coming from, because when I went out again, I saw comrade Vusi laying on the ground and I think it came from the people who were in this other car, though I am not certain about that because I did not see the person who fired.

MR MASHABANE: And you say Vusi was laying on the ground?  Why was he, was he hurt or why was he laying on the ground?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I went out of the car after Jamane gave me the rifle.  I could not see Vusi but the person that I could see was Thami and comrade Jamane.  Those are the people that I saw, because we were on the other side.
	There was a shootout because when I came out and comrade Jamane, we were also shooting but we couldn't see comrade Vusi at the time, because I was just on the other side of the bakkie.  I later saw him laying on the ground.

MR MASHABANE: When you saw him, at that stage, was he injured or ...

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When I saw him there, after some time, that was after the shooting, and even the people who were in that other car, were no longer shooting back.  I saw him, I saw Vusi laying down on the ground, and he was still alive, but he was full of blood.  I think he was already injured.

MR MASHABANE: Thereafter, what happened?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: As I was also confused, after the shooting had subsided, I went back to the car, talked to comrade Jamane and Vusi and Thami.  I told them to get into the car and leave.
	I made a U-turn.  I remembered comrade Vusi that was left behind, laying on the ground.  I alighted from the vehicle.  A person fired from that same car when I was taking the U-turn.  That is when comrade Thami was shot at because when I was taking a U-turn, he was no longer in the car, he was already shot at.

MR MASHABANE: When you got into your car and made the U-turn, where was the other car at that stage?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: It remained standing where it was.

MR MASHABANE: And where were the people who were in the car?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The person that I was exchanging fire with, I am not sure how many people were inside, but the one who opened the door, he ran away towards the direction of the houses.  There was also something that looked like a veld nearby.

MR MASHABANE: You may continue.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When I made that U-turn, thinking of going to fetch Vusi, comrade Thami couldn't walk.  He was also on the ground.  I heard a siren behind me, that was a police siren.
	When I heard that, I did not go back to comrade Thami and Vusi, I went back to the car.  Comrade Jamane had already started the car, because when I left the car, I switched the car off.   I thought that if I get into the car, these police might shoot at us or arrest us.  I took a rifle from him, because the rifle was in the front of the car,  I took that rifle from him, I took a cover using this car and the police car was coming from behind.
	When they saw this rifle through the window, the police shot at me.  When they saw me handling this rifle through the window after Jamane had given me the rifle, the police started shooting.
	As I was shooting back, the car was also moving forward and comrade Jamane was shooting, was driving the car and reversing at the same time and the police were also pursuing the car.
	I arrived at the stop street, I had run out of ammunition for my rifle.  I went to comrade Jamane, I pushed him to the other side, and I got into the car and I started the car because I couldn't trust his driving, so I had to drive the car.
	When I was trying to drive this car, the car came to a standstill, I think the tyres were already shot at.  That is when I left the vehicle.  The pistol that I was using when I was, the pistol that I had when I was going to Duduza, it was still with me.  I managed to fire about four times, so that I could get a chance to run away.
	Comrade Jamane managed to escape.

CHAIRPERSON: Vusi, or let me put it this way, you talk of police that were shooting at you.  The people who were shooting at your group,  were they in that motor vehicle that came to your car, to your bakkie - whom you thought were the police?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In retrospect we known now that they weren't police, it was Thompson and company.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I heard that in court.  As we were shooting, the only car that I noticed that it belonged to the police, was the vehicle that was yellow with a blue lamp on top.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: After making a U-turn.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now do you remember in your trial it was suggested, or the issue arose that you were connected to the burglary of a house in that street?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: And that when you were parked there, people associated, coming from that direction of where these goods were eventually found in the veld, do you remember it was raised in your trial?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I remember that was suggested in the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say about that?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Though it was put during the trial, it is because, it is how the complainant had put it, because they saw a van that was parked there, they suspected that there was a burglary.
	When they came to approach that van, that van that was parked in the street, it is when they came to us and the shootout started.  Even in court they mentioned that they were suspecting.