Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: From the security establishment, in the interest of time I am going to ask them to go the podium at the same time and we will take their testimony together and then we can ask whatever questions of clarification we wish, although that should be limited from the way things are.  So can I ask both of you, Brigadier Ngcobo and Superintendent Raymond Simms to take the podium please.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MR POTGIETER: Brigadier Ngcobo we will start with you and I am not going to waste any further time.  I am going to ask you to take us through the submission that you want to make in regard to the Bisho incident.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Before I start I will just request to give my evidence in Xhosa.

MR POTGIETER: That is perfectly in order.  You may proceed.

UNKNOWN: First of all when Brig Ngcobo had taken his position in the Ciskei the senior officers in the Ciskean Police, he demonstrated and showed that he did not trust them.  They were officials from the Republic of South Africa that came to Ciskei, both in the defence and the police.  The whole time the Commissioner in the Ciskean Police were Black people, but after Gqozo took over people like General
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Viktor were called in.  That showed that he did not trust us.
 I would like to proceed with the day of the march.  First of all on the 28th of August 1992 we were called as senior officers to the Commissioner's office.  We were called by General Viktor.  There were also officers of the defence force there.  He told us about instructions about the march from Brigadier Gqozo that there's going to be a march on the 7th of September.  He told us that there is not going to be any permission for the march.  In that meeting on the 28th of August Colonel Simms and myself were pointed out and delegated that we are going to be in charge of certain duties.  
 On the 2nd of September 1992 there was yet another meeting.  Colonel van der Bank was the Chair of that meeting.  In that meeting Colonel Nkosana was pointed out as being in charge of the defence force. Even in that meeting it was stated that permission for the march will not be granted.  This is how things were planned.
 The police were supposed to control the crowd.  The defence force would be at the Bisho stadium and then the rest would be behind the Ciskean Development Bank.  They would be called by the police should need arise.
 The last meeting with the defence force was on the 6th of September in the offices of the defence force.  Even there there was no conclusion as such.  We continued with the decision, that is the police that would be in charge of controlling the crowds, they would then call on the defence should need arise.  
 On the 7th, that was the day of the march, I reported at work as usual at 6:30.  What shocked me and surprised me 
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when I got there things did not go according to our decisions made in the meetings.  I was surprised to see a member of the defence at that Fort Hare campus.  I took my car and drove around.  I saw members of the defence force next to the telephone exchange building.  I saw yet other members of the Ciskean defence force on the northern side of the Bisho stadium.  After I came back I went to General Viktor.  I then asked what had changed and how.  He pretended that he did not know anything.  
 I picked up the phone and phoned the man that was supposed to be in charge of the defence on the ground.  That was Colonel Nkosana.  I did not get hold of him.  I personally went there to the offices.  I did not have the right to talk to the members of the defence force.  I did not get any officer of the defence force. I think this was after nine o'clock.  I was supposed to be in charge of the operations.  I still did not know that permission had been granted.  It was only after nine o'clock that I got the information that permission had been granted.  I asked General Viktor if permission had been granted, he said yes permission had been granted.  I asked how the route goes.  He then said that when the crowd arrives at the border they will turn towards the stadium.
 At that point I went back to the police that had been deployed to the Bisho routes.  Our aim as we planned was to protect the government buildings at Bisho. The way from Zwelitsha to Bisho had police.  The gravel road from Hanover to Bisho also had police in it.  The route from Kei Road to Bisho also had police.  Next to the telephone exchange there were police there as well.
 On that same day, if I remember well it was towards one EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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o'clock or after one.  The people from the march came towards the main road, towards the razor wire that was supposed to be a barrier.  I was not too far from this.  When they got there the first group turned towards the stadium and the others followed. The first group entered the stadium and then there was another group on the northern side of the stadium.  At that point I heard shots.  The people were not going according to the three meetings that we'd had.  It is not the people that were going towards the stadium and Bisho that were shot only, but also the people from the main road in King Williamstown towards the stadium were being shot at.
 I was under the impression that the permit stipulated that they would go from the borders towards the stadium.  I don't know what the shooting was for.  A lot of damage and people being injured were people from on this road towards the stadium.
 During this time that I was on the scene I had a Commissioner, General Viktor, he took command from me. 
 Lastly I would like to say, besides the three meetings that I had held with the defence force it is clear that there are other meetings that were held that I did not know about.  The deployment of the members to the Fort Hare branch, telephone exchange and the northern side of the stadium I know nothing of.  I only saw this on the day of the march in the morning.  That is all I have to say.  Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: I am going to go over to Superintendent Simms and we will ask you to just get the microphone to your side.  I am going to ask you to proceed.  You were the head of the Riot Unit of the Ciskei police at that stage is that
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correct?

UNKNOWN: The Ciskei Riot Unit.

MR POTGIETER: Okay.  Would you like to proceed.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman just before I proceed my statement is in Afrikaans.  It is not to delay the Commission's inquiry or anything to that effect, the reason for that is it's a copy of my statement in the criminal docket which is still at the Attorney General's office for his decision.  Permission if I can read it in Afrikaans and then I will answer the questions to the best of my ability in English.

MR POTGIETER: Very good.  You may proceed.

UNKNOWN: ... in what General van der Bank said regarding feeling sorry for the family and the relatives and friends of the people that were killed in the massacre.  You know Sir it's easy to say you're sorry, it's only that word "sorry" after a problem has occurred and something like that has happened, but I just want to say that we all in South Africa say nowadays that we are Christians and now I don't want to quote pieces out of the Bible and that, and make as if I am an angel or that, but I think that we must move away from this "I, I", self ego-centred problem and start working together and then we'll get much further.  I am going over to my statement Sir.
 I, Raymond Pieter Simms declare under oath in Afrikaans.  I am a superintendent in the South African Police stationed in East London, area commissioner's office.

MR POTGIETER: Could you please be a little bit slower.