Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MR RICHARD: Forgive me, Chairperson, if I listen to the interpreters dialogue, I thought some names were mentioned.  I'd like to hear the names.  What were those names again?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: No, I did not mention names of people.

MR RICHARD: Were there local persons in the Northern Province, in your area, who supported the apartheid government?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: According to my knowledge one such person was the King, who was our leader, because he supported the then government.

MR RICHARD: Now did that person have any particular relationship with either ngakas or molois?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that they had dealings with the witches, then the doctors.

MR RICHARD: And what did that person who was a leader of your area, who supported the apartheid government, want of the molois?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: His name was Mpho Nylete William Mashabela.

MR RICHARD: And what did Mr Mashabela want the molois to do for him, according to your belief or knowledge?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Amongst other things that I think he wanted the witches to do for him, was to fight against the youth who belonged to the ANC Youth League, so that the ANC Youth League should not develop.

MR RICHARD: How would that fight have been carried out?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that amongst other things that would be done would be to kill the youth, like they did to Moses Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Right, let's go back to Moses Phasha's disappearance around the 16th of January.  How long did it take for you to notice that your brother had gone missing?  Did you notice it immediately or was he missing for a few days before you noticed?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Like I've already said that he was a sickly person, the first day he disappeared we became aware that he was missing because we could not find him in any of the family households, and that is how we realised that he has disappeared.

MR RICHARD: What efforts were made to search for him?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Before the community became involved, the family and relatives started searching for him, even in other villages where we thought that he might be there, but after realising that he was nowhere in those areas we went to seek for help from the traditional doctors.  We wanted them to show us whether he has disappeared or not and if he has disappeared, what could have been the cause for his disappearance.

MR RICHARD: And what did the traditional doctors tell you?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They told us that Moses has been abducted.

MR RICHARD: And what had happened to him as a result of his abduction?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The person who was actually involved in that was Jan Mashyani.  He was the person who was in contact with the traditional doctors and then he would take that to Moses' family, and then he said the doctors said he has disappeared, he has been abducted by the traditional doctors.

MR RICHARD: When you say he's been ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: By the witches rather.  I'm sorry.

MR RICHARD: Now who said Jan Pasha was involved?  I didn't quite follow.  The traditional ngaka the nyanga?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Jan Mashyani Phasha was the person who was involved in the family, to help the family to find out from the traditional doctors what happened to Moses and what help is available from the traditional doctors to find him, so he would take the report from the doctors to the family.  In other words, he was the person who was the link between the family and the traditional doctors.

MR RICHARD: Now does that mean that Jan Phasha was pointed out as a moloi?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: No, he was not pointed out as a witch, but he was the person who had the knowledge about Moses and what happened to Moses and what were the reasons for his disappearance.

MR RICHARD: Now was he the only one pointed out?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I don't understand your question, do you mean him being pointed out as a witch?

MR RICHARD: Well he was pointed out as being involved with the witches in Moses' disappearance.  My question then is, how many others were pointed out at this stage, as being involved?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Mr Richard, the applicant is saying that Jan Phasha was not pointed out as a witch, he was a go-between between the family and the traditional doctors, in order to try and find out what had happened to the deceased.  So he wasn't pointed out as a witch, hew as simply helping the family.

MR RICHARD: I stand corrected, thank you.
	Now what did you do with that information?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: As family members or relatives, we were trying all the means to find, or to look for him where we thought he could be.  We even informed the chiefs in the neighbouring villages, asking them to tell us whenever they see him.

MR RICHARD: Now did you consult ngakas again, so as to find out what had happened to Moses?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The reason why we went back to the traditional doctors was that Jan Phasha went back to them to ask for help because they are they are the people who knew what happened to him.  He asked them to help the family by returning Moses back to the family.

MR RICHARD: And what did the traditional doctors say in response to Jan's request?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: What Mashyani Phasha told us was that the traditional doctors have instructed him to go where Moses was hidden and then he'll be able to find him there, and that is where he was found.

MR RICHARD: Now before he was found - let me put the question this way, at what stage did the youth of the area become involved?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: After that Jan returned from the traditional doctors, he went to the chief.  He requested the chief to give him some members of the community to go with him to that place where the traditional doctors said he will find Moses at, and that is how the youth were also involved in this issue.

MR RICHARD: How did the chief react to Jan Phasha's request?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The chief agreed and he wrote letters and he sent those letters to various schools in that village, instructing the schools that they should stop with their activities so that everybody can help in the search for Moses.

MR RICHARD: Now if you turn to paragraph 10(b) at page 15 of your application, there you say
"There were one of the ANC Youth League at KwaMatabela village, who had been lost.  The people of Matabela village include with the ANC youth at that village, were started to be angry and their captain, mentioned at paragraph 9(c), was granted letters to two high schools in his village to release the students to be helped by hunting that lost person to the mountain caves."
What do you mean "to the mountain caves"?  What do you mean by that?  Where are the mountain caves?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: This mountain I'm referring to is in our village.

MR RICHARD: And - carry on, sorry.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The problems that ensued at the mountain was that after that the youth have searched the mountain and they did not find Moses, they became angry towards the chief because they did not find Moses, so they wanted to know from the traditional doctor what has actually happened.

MR RICHARD: How many people went to the mountain cave?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: More than 500 people, because there were so many people there.

MR RICHARD: Now when the search for Moses was unsuccessful, what happened next?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Because Mashyani Phasha was confronted by the youth he gave the youth the names of the people who were involved in Moses' disappearance.  That is when the youth decided that it will be better if they can get those people who have been mentioned as witches, so that those people could help in the search for Moses.

MR RICHARD: Now did they act out what had to be done on that decision?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, they did.

MR RICHARD: What did they do?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They went to the chief's kraal.