Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

MR BRINK: Mr Chair, members of the Committee, this is the...(talking in background - no microphone)...and I understand that my learned colleague will be asking for this matter to stand down for a short while to take instructions from Mr Madlala.

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman I am Banade from the Free State Bar.   I am acting on the instructions of Goodrick Franklin of Bloemfontein on behalf of Mr Harrington and Erasmus at this Committee meeting.   I have received complete instructions from them with regard to the aspects which have to be covered here today, although it was at short notice we consulted on Saturday.   When we got here, we discovered the friend Mr Madlala here and he asked me if I would assist him as well.   Unfortunately I have been unable to have a brief with him, I just got here this morning and I just briefly discussed with him what was going on here but I have been unable to consult with him and take proper instructions, thus in the light of the request by Mr Madlala I would like to request a short adjournment to enable me to consult with him.   If I could get at least half an hour just to get an idea of the evidence that is to be led, I would like the Committee to consider this request please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madlala, do you understand English?

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...please say something so we can see whether Mr Madlala is on the right channel?

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Madlala listen to the machine now, can you hear what I am saying to you?

INTERPRETER: He can't hear anything it's probably the earphones, he can't hear anything.

JUDGE WILSON: Try again with those earphones, can you now
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hear what I am saying to you?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of your attorney?

MR MADLALA: I wasn't able to get an attorney because I was notified quite late that I should get an attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: ...somebody who said that he was your attorney contacted Mr Brink, what is the name of that person?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I have asked him to appear on my behalf at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: ...to Mr Brink.

INTERPRETER: There seems to be something wrong with the earphones, the witness is not getting the interpretation from the booth.   Zulu is supposed to be in channel 3 from his apparatus.    He is getting the interpretation now.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you ask him to give us the name of his attorney, the person that was acting on his behalf and informed Mr Brink?

MR MADLALA: I do not know his name because I was told quite late that I had to appear before the Amnesty Commission, then I asked Mr, this one who is in front of you to represent me.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman I think the name of the attorney was Mr Mlaba, I'm not quite sure it rings a bell, a Mr Mlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it not appear from the application form?

MR MADLALA: No it's not Mlaba who is appearing on my behalf, I am not the one who is represented by Mlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your wish that you be represented by Mr Banade?

MR MADLALA: Yes it is my wish.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Mr Banade hasn't had a chance to discuss this matter with you so that he can be better prepared to represent you.   Do you understand that?
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MR MADLALA: Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...to afford him an opportunity to do so by adjourning this hearing, but I want to be satisfied, my Committee wants to be satisfied that you do want to be represented and that you are quite happy that you should be represented by Mr Banade?

MR MADLALA: I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.   Mr Banade we will adjourn to enable you to have an opportunity to discuss and take instructions from Mr Madlala.   If it transpires in the course of your instructions that there may be a conflict of interest between one or other of the applicants, you will then have to advise us on what you propose doing.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman, we are very thankful to you for this adjournment and I will let you know as soon as we are ready to proceed.   We will adjourn and we will come in as soon as counsel tell us that they are ready to proceed.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman I thank you for the opportunity to consult, we have done so and I am ready to lead his evidence.   May I inform you at this stage, since the amnesty application form with regards to Mr Madlala is unclear that he was applying for amnesty with regard to the murder on Jama and also the murder on 24 February 1991.   We will look at that.   If you are then prepared to proceed, I would like to ask Mr Harrington to be sworn in so that we can deal with his evidence first and then Mr Erasmus and Mr Madlala.   It has been cleared up as such with them as well, if you accept it as such.

JUDGE WILSON: Did his original application form deal with
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the murder of 24 February 1991 or is this a fresh application?

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman to the best of my knowledge his original application also deals with that, specifically the Jama incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Banade will you ensure that before we proceed with his evidence that a legible application form on behalf of Madlala is handed in because I understand the form that he's made available to us is a very, very poor copy and it's difficult to read what he said.

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman I will do so, since we are going to start with Mr Harrington and Erasmus, I assume that there will be a break as we proceed with the day's hearing and I will obtain a form and assisting him in filling it in.   As you please.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Banade you say that you are going on with the application for amnesty with regard to the offence of murder.   Is that the only amnesty Mr Harrington is applying for or are you applying for the other aspects which he mentioned, the third force activities, "C" Annexure.

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman the main application is with regard to the murder of Jama on 24 February 1991.   Mr Harrington has indicated in his application, has indicated about third force activities and I have cleared it up with him this morning and I will take it up with him directly, whether the third force activities which he refers to have got anything to do with UDF and ANC members over a period of time, specifically before this date.   He cannot specify that Mr X and Y were assaulted on any specific dates, he cannot be specific.   We will not be able to point out the victims that is why I agreed with him that if the Committee so
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pleases, because the spectrum of third force activities is so wide that we will deal mainly with the murder of Jama of 24 February.   I would also like to mention to you that Mr Harrington and not Mr Erasmus has been cleared with regard to assault, as far as I know things that happened before 24 February, he has been acquitted.

MR DE JAGER: I do not have a problem with that, the fact is that if he is not applying for a specific action is he aware that should he be granted amnesty that he can be prosecuted for the other actions?    I do not know if it was part of third force activities, but if you are going to give us specific incidents, he cannot be granted amnesty for incidents for which he has not applied.   If it is not clear that is why I am asking because as it is set out here it is not too clear and you have to clear it up because we cannot grant amnesty for third force activities. (The speaker's microphone is not on)...

MR BANADE: If it is an official decision by the Committee and I'd like to find out if it is, then I would like to consult with them briefly with regard to this aspect, but we will stick to the application for the murder on Jama.