Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am going to refer you to page 22, page 22 of that document.  I am aware you don't have it in front of you but I will read it out to you and my question will follow therefrom.  Page 22, the last paragraph, for the convenience of members.  I will read that paragraph.
"Passions became inflamed and Mr Mokgatle was then thrown out of the mini-bus and assaulted by members of the group with ..."
The important part follows -
"... a variety of hand-held weapons."
Did you hear that?

MR K C MOKGATLE: The part I took is the part that I have
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already explained, that I used the panga.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I have heard the interpretation here, but I am not saying the interpretation is not good.  I said did you hear what I have just quoted from the document on page 22?  I will repeat that portion for the purpose of the interpreters
"Passions became inflamed and Mr Mokgatle was then thrown out of the mini-bus and assaulted by members of the group with a variety of hand-held weapons."
Did you hear that?

MR K C MOKGATLE: That's true, I have just heard it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What were the weapons used?

MR K C MOKGATLE: The instrument I saw is the one that I have already explained or described which is a panga and the knobkierie.  Those are the only instruments that I saw.  I am talking about what I saw, I can't give evidence about what I haven't seen.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct - (microphone no switched on) ... post-mortem report?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't see the post-mortem report.

JUDGE WILSON: And in the judgment, the Judge who tried the accused, found, and I quote from page 8
"He could have known that to pulled a man of 83 or 84 out of his house and to kick him, while others were slashing him with the panga, certainly does not evince a strong sense of right and wrong."
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Is there any evidence from the trial record that any weapon other than a panga was used?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am not aware of any admission of that sort from the record.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But I am here referring to a document used by the applicant wherein they allege themselves that a variety of weapons was used, and it is in my view that if such a statement is included and that the document was read onto the record, then an explanation, if it has to come, has to come from the compilers of the document itself, and that is, one of them is the applicant, the witness present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Thank you, everybody. I think we should deal with that aspect the correct way. I think let us ask this witness the following question, if you don't mind. This information which has just been read, did it come from you?

MR MOKGATLE: This information that has just been read, comes from, part of it comes from me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I asked you whether this portion came from you.  A variety of hand-held weapons.  In other words the deceased was assaulted by members of the group with a variety of hand-held weapons.  Did that portion come from you?

MR MOKGATLE: This portion comes from me.  I answer the counsel's question by saying, those instruments or the instrument that I saw were the only ones that I have already talked about. That is the panga and the knobkierie.  The knobkierie was used there and the panga was also used.  Those are the only instruments that I say were used in this attack.  The knobkierie was held by Mosibo Gupani.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Not hold it or possess it, use it?
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MR MOKGATLE: I saw him using it inside the mini-bus.  He hit Mr Glad Mokgatle with that knobkierie.  When I saw him doing that we were in the mini-bus.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many times did he assault the deceased with that kierie?

MR MOKGATLE: I didn't count how many times he hit that deceased with that knobkierie, but it was numerous times.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this told to the Committee by yourself when giving evidence?  Or was this disclosed by yourself?

MR MOKGATLE: I didn't tell this to the Committee until - I didn't say to the Committee what happened in the mini-bus.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mokgatle, finally, why was this thing bad as it is, done by yourself?  What was the motive behind all this?

MR MOKGATLE: You mean the actual killing?  I was influenced or the motive was to be afraid to get arrested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified yesterday that you are a member of the ANC, the African National Congress.  Do you remember that?

MR MOKGATLE: I still remember well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When did you become a member of the African National Congress.

MR MOKGATLE: In 1990 I started fighting for the ANC membership.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know when was this, the year perhaps?

MR MOKGATLE: When I started talking to the ANC it was in 1990 until I lost touch with them and then joined and was then arrested without having obtained my rights.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
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HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination, Mr Currin?

MR CURRIN: Yes, there is an issue which was taken up yesterday by my colleague.  I had hoped that he would take it up again today, and that is the question of reconciliation. I would prefer those questions to come from the Commission rather than from us, but if he hasn't put those questions I would like to put those questions about reconciliation.

HASSAN MALL: You may proceed.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  Are you sorry about - do you feel remorse about the murder which you committed?

MR MOKGATLE: I couldn't hear the question clearly, the microphone just went dead.

MR CURRIN: Are you sorry and do you feel remorse for the murder which you committed?

MR MOKGATLE: I am very touched by what we did, that is the actual killing, and I regret what I did.

MR CURRIN: In your view do you wish to reconcile with the family of the deceased and maybe you could also tell us whether there was any relationship between you and the deceased and the deceased's family.

MR MOKGATLE: If the Committee could allow me, I would like to point out to some people and thereafter explain my relation with the deceased.  That's my plea.

MR CURRIN: You may do that, yes.

MR MOKGATLE: I would like to ask all the grand-children from Batshitshi to stand up, please.  So that the Committee could see them.  My sister's children who are here.  The lady there who is standing up is my sister's child.  His mother is the second born in our family, second born.  This child's father which is Tshitshi, the grandfather, and Mr
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Glad Mokgatle's wife are sisters.  Therefore, I am very sorry that I killed their uncle.  These children of Mr Glad Mokgatle are my brothers.  Therefore, the trouble that I have here in Phokeng, didn't satisfy me because I saw that if I am in jail, it is not satisfactory for me to work for my uncle, because I have killed him.  The better thing was to kill myself. Therefore I didn't have food for about 76 days.   That was not the only deed that I did.  I thought because I wouldn't die because of hunger, I tried to hang myself about three times, but I didn't succeed.  That's why today I come here in front of the Commission and the Baphokeng tribe, and the grand-daughters of Mr Glad and I have come to please ask for forgiveness from them. I have come here to ask for forgiveness in front of the Baphokeng tribe and the children of Mr Glad Mokgatle, and also my grand-children, because I feel I am alone, I don't have any family any more.  Thank you.  (Applause).

MR CURRIN: I have no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, you are entitled to ask questions arising out of what has been said, if you choose to.