Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: I think Advocate Kemp is wrong because Mr  Mabotha is an Askari who apparently mutinied and if an Askari is different from an informer or a "beriggewer", as it is put in Afrikaans, then I find that very strange.  However, I will show other aspects of the same affidavit which shows these contradictions.  Let's look at your paragraph 9.
"The kidnapping, assault and murder of Stompie Seipei took place before I was at the security branch in Soweto".
Mr Du Toit, were you not aware of the controversy surrounding Mr Seipei's disappearance and subsequently his body being found?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, after I started one heard of the circumstances of the death but again the matter misleads me because in paragraph 9 we deal with the abduction, assault and murder and of that I have no knowledge.

MR VALLY: What is clear to me is that you were there on the 1st December 1988, that the kidnapping of Mr Seipei took place I believe on the 29th December 1988 so you were already placed in Soweto.  The body of Mr Seipei was found subsequently early the next year.  The arrest and the raids on Mrs Madikizela-Mandela house also took place early in 1989.  So you were at the centre of all the action in the security branch at all the relevant times regarding Stompie Seipei's murder.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: According to my records it shows that on the 1st I started there.  I was first on leave and actually went to work on the 2nd January.  It is true that I do not know when Stompie's body was found.  It might have been early January but that is not all matter that was handled by the security police at that stage.  There were many cases.  That was not the only important matter.  Each investigative officer handles his own matters.  I had heard of this but I had nothing to do with it.

MR VALLY: We've heard that answer consistently from other people, Mr Du Toit, we were so busy with other matters we couldn't apply our minds to the kidnappings and the murders that were taking place.  That is what you are in fact saying.  Let us go on.  Your paragraph 9.
"I want to make it clear at the time of his arrest there was no connection between him and Stompie Seipei but he was arrested because he was an Askari who mutinied and the understanding was that he was involved in unlawful activities".
Can you tell us what these unlawful activities you believe he was involved in?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, these were just suspicions.  A person who is a trained terrorist of the MK and who deserts from Vlakplaas, any normal person would assume that such a person would be busy with illegal or political activities because he was trained therefor and that is how the suspicion originated.

MR VALLY: I put it to you with all the (...indistinct) that the name he used on the phone was George.  That as a result of the conversation you presumed that he was a trained ANC cadre and therefore you went to arrest him in Groblersdal.  You did not know he was an Askari at that stage.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, I have no knowledge of the phone transcriptions.  I found out about that later.

MR VALLY: Your colleagues seemed to keep you very much in the dark.  It just sounds very strange to me, and I don't want to go into that because there will be sufficient evidence coming subsequently to tell us about this telephone tapping.  I want to give you the opportunity to come clean.  I want to give you that opportunity because we have as evidence, and I am going to keep putting this evidence to you, I would rather you tell us what has happened rather than me having to drag it out of you.  Are you saying that at the time you went to Groblersdal you knew you were dealing with Themba or Mr Mabotha?  You already knew that?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: As far as I know, Mr Chair, I don't deny that there were phone calls or tapping.  All I am saying is that I had no knowledge of it.  I just heard that we were going to Groblersdal and if I remember right they gave me his name, but that is all.

MR VALLY: Now this affidavit that I have just read into the record was given by you on the 21st March 1989.  Do you recall taking an affidavit from Mr Mabotha at the time that you arrested him?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I remember that there was a statement taken.  Yes, I think I took it down.

MR VALLY: "Johannes Kabodi Mabotha, declared a black man. I am rresident at 574 Lebowagomo in Pietersburg.  On the 20th February 1989 at about 12h00 I was arrested in Groblersdal.  I was staying with a friend at Motatuma.  During my arrest I had certain documents which had been written in my own handwriting.  The documents were taken by the police.  One document contained a message which I had to convey to the media.  It was about a black boy Stompie Moketsie.  I got this information from Winnie Mandela at her house.  I had to travel to Botswana on 18 February 1989 until the 20th and to phone from Botswana to tell the media that Stompie is in a refuge camp in Botswana.  I also had to discredit the security police by saying that Stompie was running away from the police.  However, I did not perform this instruction of Winnie Mandela.  I am familiar with the affidavit and the rest.                           Signed Johannes Kobodi Mabotha".
And the number is on there.  It was taken down by Du Toit.  Do you acknowledge that this is your signature on it?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is my signature.

MR VALLY: You had all this information on the 22nd February 1989 when you effected the arrest of Mr Mabotha did you not?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: You had information there regarding the disappearance of Mr Stompie Seipei?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: And you had information regarding thealleged involvement of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: So you had substantial information as at the 22nd February 1989 alread?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: I won't go into why I feel your affidavit was certainly lacking in detail.  Let's go onto your paragraph 10.  Here you say to the best of your knowlege after Mabotha was arrested you let Col Eugene de Kock know he was arrested because he had "gedros" absconded, mutinied from Vlakplaas.  You don't remember the details, you remember Col De Kock joined you later.  Your recollection is that you gave Mabotha to Col De Kock but you cannot remember if he asked you to take Mr Mabotha back to Soweto.  You can't remember if you were at all involved in any other way with him.   This is what you say.  Do you still stand by that?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.  As I testified I can't remember that I had anything to do with his investigation.  It could be that I actually took down an oath later but I certainly didn't have anything to do with Mabotha that I can remember.

MR VALLY: How many of you were present at the time of Mr Mabotha's arrest in Groblersdal on the 22nd February 1989?  And I am talking about all the policemen that you can recall.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is difficult but I think - I can't remember, I know it was me and Col Grobbelaar, a person called Frans, I can't remember his surname but I later heard that he died in a car accident.  I think there were five or six of us.

MR VALLY: What did you do with Mr Mabotha after you arrested him?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair I think we took him to the security branch at Marble Hall, to the farm.   We waited to hear from De Kock but I am not 100 per cent sure.  I knew we waited and then at a stage we came back to Johannesburg and I personally can't remember that we brought him back but if we look at other documents it is clear that we did bring him back with us.

MR VALLY: May I remind you that you took him to a certain, was it a farm in Marble Hall.  Do you recall this?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, I don't think that is correct.