Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: To the best of my knowledge there was no organised operations from any MK structure at headquarters. It's clear from operations that were conducted arising out of the oppression in the Ciskei that former MK cadres were involved in hitting back, in responding, but this was never discussed at the MK command level. Mr Modise is unfortunately not with us at the moment Archbishop, he's been called to speak to the President on the phone, as far as I'm aware there was never any report or discussion concerning on-going operations for the Ciskei. So my answer would be that this was something that had developed within that area by those on the ground. I think once Mr Modise is back perhaps at some stage we could refer to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Mr Maharaj would like to add something here Bishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson my acquaintance with this issue arises from the negotiating process. What was clear in that period was the degree to which the structure imposed by Brigadier Gqozo's regime had reached the point where even villages were organised and legitimate headmen had been removed and others imposed on these communities. There was an atmosphere of extreme repression and intimidation. I think that context needs to be understood. Clearly from our side we did not engage in armed activity. We sought to mobilise the masses in political activity and it is therefore a matter which we would like to again offer our cooperation to the TRC. If there are any cadres who claim to be ANC, who say they want amnesty for some activity such has been put in the question, we would offer ourselves to quickly verify, on the background that they may have acted spontaneously and we would come back to you to facilitate your addressing their amnesty applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop. I want to move on to another issue now. This issue relates to certain amnesty applications. We have had four amnesty applications from persons serving long sentences for acts like murder and armed robbery, who have quoted the then ANC Youth leader, Mr Peter Mokaba's statement, "Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer" as political justification for their acts.
What we need to know is was this ANC policy? And what steps did ANC take to neutralise possible consequences of Mr Mokaba's statement?

UNKNOWN: No, the Chairperson, we need to talk about African tradition, there is no such thing as - this was not a statement, it's not a statement of any kind, and wouldn't be read by any of these African youth as a statement. In Xhosa this particular form of art similar is called EKWIJO(?), and Ekwijo is not a statement, it's not a political statement, it's a chant. You use it to - for instance amakwengwe(?), you know when they are going over long distances they would be doing this thing, it's not a statement. You see part of the problem with this is that somebody who comes from outside of that African culture interpreted it and indeed when you then write there Peter Mokaba said, "Kill a Boer, Kill a Farmer", he didn't in the sense of a statement which represents policy.  And it would not have been taken as a statement that represents policy. So there is no ANC policy which says "kill a farmer, kill a Boer" and all that, but there would be amakwejo(?) of all sorts. You have a Zulu song, not quite ekwejo but it's traditional songs, (sings in Zulu). Now that's not a statement, it's not a statement I'm making that I will never visit Zululand, it's a song. I don't think we really - I really don't think that this, certainly, I don't know whether Peter is here, he likes doing these things and you could do different ones and you could translate them. There are different chants, and they will be saying different things, different things about the struggle. This particular one was picked out, as I say, and interpreted from outside of African culture and presented as a political statement, it never was.

MR VALLY: The reality is that whether it was a chant ...(intervention)

PREMIER MATTHEWS PHOSA: Chairperson before he proceeds when we were handling the indemnity applications we did come across these sort of things where someone applied for indemnity for having raped the child, the daughter of a councillor and in his motivation he was saying because of apartheid. Now I would like to describe those type of applications for amnesty which are trying to pin down Mokaba in that particular manner, as the same one as these ones, of a person who goes to rape a child of a councillor and he says because of apartheid and I'm asking for indemnity.
In addition you had a lot of freedom songs which had this line, "kill the Boer", which was meant merely to motivate our soldiers, in many freedom songs they are there, it's not belonging to Peter Mokaba, and I think we need to make that very clear. The people who said it belonged to Peter Mokaba were the farmers and again it was a shift of perception after the death of Chris Hani when the pressure was no the government, after the death of Chris Hani there was a shift of perception which put pressure on Mokaba in particular as we were chanting and toyi-toyiing.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand.

UNKNOWN: May I just follow on this because I think it's a very important statement that was shared with us now from the Deputy President. Would I be correct in saying that what you have communicated to us is more-or-less what we have in most traditional cultures, also Afrikaans songs, like Simbamba Mamma se Kindjie, Draai sy nek om gooi hom in die sloot, trap op se koppe, is hy dood, but you rock the baby to sleep, that's what you are saying to us? Or Rock-a-bye-baby in the treetop, when the wind blows, cradle will fall, down will come baby cradle and all. Are you saying there is no meaning to be read in the words at all, that it's simply a chant?

UNKNOWN: Absolutely no ANC policy to kill farmers, absolutely none.

UNKNOWN: Like it's not Afrikaner policy to kill their kids when they rock them to sleep. (General laughter)

UNKNOWN: Absolutely. Or the calypso song, Brown skin girl, throw away the brown - the damn baby, there's no Caribbean policy to throw away babies.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson. I agree entirely with African culture as far as that goes, but there are also some songs that are perpetuated even today which may have had a certain political context. For instance at funerals even today we still have the refrain that goes like - (speaks in African language), and it's just a song, but what do you say about that?

UNKNOWN: No we actually - there has been some discussion about this informally to discourage it, this particular song. There has been some informal discussion to discourage it because I think everybody is sensitive precisely to the point that you are making, but again as people sing it they know that it wouldn't carry the meaning today that it would have carried in the past.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hanif.

MR VALLY: A very brief follow-up. I note the statement that it was never ANC policy to state that what had happened in reality is there were a number of attacks on farmers in this period. We are talking about after the truce. And I also know there was a lot of controversy around this issue which led to Mr Mokaba then saying "Kiss the farmer, kiss the Boer", which led to Afrikaans papers asking which was worse. But the important thing is the question has been answered that it was not ANC policy.
If we could go on. I want to move on to a new section now. Unless you want to take tea first or should we go on?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I am trying to preside over this, thank you very much.