Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Khungwane, thank you very much for your testimony and for having participated in the proceedings.  We have noted all of the points that you have made and we sincerely hope that at least having been present at this session, at the hearing, that you at least have heard firsthand what case it is that the applicants have presented to us.  I think Mr Mapoma has explained to you what the legal requirements are, and of course our duty as a panel is to test the case that was placed before us against those requirements, and that is really, you know, the duty that we have.  But thank you very much for having come and having at least participated and shared your views with us.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are there any other witnesses?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.  I would like to call Leonard Khungwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him sworn in?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I would like him to be sworn in.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Khungwane, will you please stand.  If you can just switch on your microphone please.  Sorry, it's going to go off.  If you can just put it on again.  Right.

LEONARD KHUNGWANE: (sworn states)

MR LAX: You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, will you try to get those two microphones working together again?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Khungwane, is it correct that you are the brother of the deceased Simon Khungwane?

MR KHUNGWANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And that you were present at these proceedings and listened to the applicants applying for amnesty for the killing of your brother, is that correct?

MR KHUNGWANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And that having listened to the application being made by the applicants, you would like to say something, is that correct?

MR KHUNGWANE: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Khungwane, if you can try not to drop your pen on the table.

MR KHUNGWANE: Okay.

MR LAX: The microphone picks up the noise and it's creating a bit of a problem for the interpreter.

MR KHUNGWANE: All right.  Okay.  First, what I would like to say, at the PAC I've got a friend in the lady, she works at there.  I once ask her if do they know their cadres.  Then she said to me, "We know them".  Then I said to her, "Just go and find out if you know about this Mvijane", because I had his first application amnesty at home.  Then unfortunately I didn't follow the procedure because of the problems which I'm having at the farm.  Secondly, what I would like to say, I would say to the Committee and the members of PAC.
	Firstly, Mvijane has not shown any remorse or any regrets.  He's proud, and I would say to you people of PAC, don't mould youngsters to be criminal if it's not like that - if it's like that, don't mould youngsters to be criminals.  Mould youngsters to be the people of the next generation, because the minute you mould these youngster to become criminals it's where you're spoiling the country.  Whatever is happening now recently in Congo is going to happen here in South Africa.  I'm telling you people.  You can say whatever you like, it's coming here.  It's coming here.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, just a minute.  Just a minute, just a minute, just a minute.  Can I please ask, one understands that when we have to deal with this kind of matter that there are different views expressed.  Some that one agrees with, some that one disagrees with.  But we have to do our work.  We have to hear all of the information that can assist us in coming to a fair decision on a matter that we have to decide upon.  So, please can I ask you to ensure at least that we are able to take note of everything that is said here and even if you disagree with a point that is made, the person is entitled to make the point.  That is part of our democracy that we have now at present.
	So can I please just ask everybody just to restrain yourselves so that we can hear what the witness says.  Give him an opportunity.  We've given everybody else opportunities to put their case.  So, Mr Khungwane, please just carry on where you stopped.

MR KHUNGWANE: I said to Mvijane, he doesn't show any remorse or regrets and I said to the PAC members, mould youngsters to be the future of the next coming generation.  Let them build the country.  Let them not destroy the country.  Secondly, when I come to Lulamile.  Lulamile, today you have disappointed me very much because I had faith on you because I believe your family once told us about you, and it's a pity you went to gaol for the thing which you were not there.  You were not even present.  The only thing you were only sentenced in gaol because of being in a bad company.  And I believe you have destroyed your future up to now.  And all I can say to you, I'm very disappointed because you never told the truth.  I don't know if you are afraid of Mvijane or whatever, because ever I've known Mvijane and what I would like to tell you, the place where you shot my brother it's where he attended school, because he used to attend school at Muzi High, and any person, even his friends who stays next to the place where you shot him, they were surprised because he attended school there and he had lots of friends in Pimville.
	So, to you, on behalf of my family and I'm standing here because my father was supposed to sit here or my mother was supposed to sit here, on behalf of my family, we are not prepared to give you, I know because of the Act which Mr Mandela produced, but on behalf of my family we are not prepared to give both of you any amnesty.  Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  That is it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Mr Mbandazayo, any questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I assume that you don't have anything else that you want to add?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  There's no further evidence now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khungwane, thank you very much for having come and for having presented your views to us.  We have taken note of that and we hope all the best for you and your family.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I suppose that ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just, Mr Chairman, it's just a request, Mr Chairman.  I happen to have a note, but I don't want it to be something of counter accusation.  The honourable gentleman, Mr Khumalo, wanted just to say something to the family of the deceased on behalf of the PAC.  But I'm in the hands of the Committee.  He wanted just to talk to the family please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  One assumes it is something that is constructive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, it's something that is constructive, Mr Chairman.  It's not something to down, he just want to say something to the family on behalf of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I have consulted with my colleagues on the panel here.  Of course, in the normal course of events that would not really form part of a process of this nature, but we are aware that there are bigger and more important objectives and that the process of which the Amnesty Committee is part of is trying to achieve in the country, and it might very well be that there is no other similarly suitable situation where an exchange can occur.  And under those circumstances I would grant your request and get Mr Khumalo to perhaps say a word or two to the family.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Khumalo, can you come to the mike.
JABULANI JOSEPH KHUMALO