Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: No, I never had a bodyguard.

ADV SANDI: Did he, possibly, have a firearm in his possession?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: No, Sir, he did not.

ADV SANDI: At the time you fired the first shot, if you were to guess, would you be able to estimate approximately how many stab wounds you had sustained?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: That was not the first time I had been stabbed.  When you are being stabbed, your whole body becomes hot and you do not know how many wounds you have sustained.  The only time you can establish that is when you are being treated.

ADV SANDI: In your affidavit, in your sworn affidavit you say that both Port Alfred and Grahamstown are places where you are welcome in the community and where you worked in the community so this surprised you.

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: I would like to start with the Port Alfred incident.  Even though it may not be clear to the community that I was a freedom fighter, it is true because when the ANC started out here in Grahamstown I was active and when I went to Port Alfred, when I was transferred to Port Alfred I found that people were being charged for services where there were no services, there were no roads in Port Alfred.  There was only one tap, there were none of these services which they people wanted, were supposed to pay for.  People's cows were being taken from them, their livestock and I tried, by all means, for them to have a better standard of living.  I did not go of my own accord, I had resigned from the church for good reasons.  I was elected by the people.

ADV SANDI: In your statement or at least not in your statement, you said that these people had on masks, that their faces were covered, but you suspected that they were Comrades.  What made you think so?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: The way in which they handled me.

ADV SANDI: Did that make you realise that they were Comrades?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: That was not the first time that I was attacked.  They would not just attack me for not having done anything.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much, Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Tiny Maya.

MS MAYA: Thank you Chairperson.  I only have two questions.  Mr Botha, you said that Mr Kuhlane, the late Mr Kuhlane, you regarded him as your friend since his wife was also a Gadebe and you people played soccer together and you knew each other.  Since you regarded him as a friend and then heard that he was you had killed, did you ever attempt to meet with his family and relatives to let them know that that was a mistake?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: As you heard, the mother said that his father was still alive at that stage.  I spoke to his father at Port Alfred and I met him at Boniswa's place again at a later stage and spoke to him and he realised that I would not have done that under any other circumstances.

MS MAYA: What I want to know is does his mother know anything about your talks with his father?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I would not be able to say whether the father told her.

MS MAYA: How do you feel know about the death of this young man?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: I am remorseful about his death, because as a Minister of religion I had no intention of doing anything in spite of what people might say.  People of Grahamstown would agree with me saying that I am the one that use to work in the community of Grahamstown and I use to move around freely.

MS MAYA: Mr Botha, thank you very much.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Thank you very much Chairperson.  I have a question I would like to put to you.  Do you recall, since 1983 up until the period which you have mentioned, that there were feelings in the locations that councillors were not welcome and civic organisations were established where it was felt that councillors should not proceed with their work, because the community did not accept them, because they were delaying the freedom, the process of freedom?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: No one came to me and said, stop what you are doing.  It was being said in the location, what I cared about was as part of the liberation struggle, people should come to me and speak to me directly.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to request everyone's co-operation.  The question being put by Reverend Xundu, if I understand it correctly, is that he wants to know if you had any knowledge of the fact that people did object to the presence of councillors.

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: Yes, I knew about that.

REV XUNDU: I am trying to establish because here we are talking about conflicts influenced by politics, we are not talking about ordinary conflict situations.  We are talking about a situation where councillors were regarded as traitors as the people not just here in Grahamstown, but throughout South Africa.

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: I understand that, Sir.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsikelelo, I thank you.  We have several questions and much as we would like to put them to you, as I have indicated, we are going to have to call you back after the victims hearings when we are going to have to make a finding in trying to find out who killed who.  We will not be able to make a finding with regards to a perpetrator without having had an opportunity to go into this matter in
depth.  There are several issues which we would like to question you about, but because we are in this type of hearing, I would like to put this question to you and it is up to you whether you would like to answer it or not.  Do you regret what you have done?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: I have already indicated, Mr Chairperson, that I have absolute remorse for what has happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to be put into contact with this family so that you can make peace with them?  Do you regard this as terrible, what you have done?

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: Yes, even though it was a mistake, it was something terrible.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We are going to take a recess now for lunch and we will come back here at two o' clock.