Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I asked him about his visit, why was he there.  He first said to me the people want to burn him in the township because they said he was an IFP member.  I asked him what is it that he did that made the people to say that he was an IFP member ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, that's not really the question, the question is you say that Nosenga spoke Sotho.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he spoke Sotho.

MS TANZER: Now what you've been asked is how did you communicate with Mr Nosenga.
	Is that the question, M'am?

MS TANZER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the question?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I understand the question.  He first greeted us, he said ...(Sotho).  That means he was greeting us in Sotho.  I noticed that he was a Sotho-speaking person.

MS TANZER: But my question was, in what language did you communicate with him, how did you talk to him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I can say I was born here in this Vaal Triangle.  I can speak both languages, Sotho and Zulu.

MS TANZER: So were you conversing with him in Sotho?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MS TANZER: What was he relating to you, his reasons for joining the hostel?  You were telling us beforehand what he was telling you, can you just tell us again?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: When I asked him why he was out of the township, he said the people were saying that he was an IFP member ...(end of tape) washing Hollie Bajosi's car.  I don't know what is it that he told the other gentlemen.
	After a few days I heard Joseph Radebe who was also a witness during the trial, though he did not go to Pretoria, he told me that this person said he was sent by the ANC to try and inspect the place as to where can he plant the bombs.
	I got a shock because I realised that we were staying with someone who wanted to kill us.  I asked him;  gentleman, I asked you yesterday your reasons for being here in this hostel.  He said no, I was afraid, I was too scared.  Then Nosenga was then to be taken to the conference.

MS TANZER: Are you telling this Committee that he admitted to you that he was an ANC spy sent to plant bombs in the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was not alone, he admitted, I was with the other people.

MS TANZER: Did you discuss the attack with Mr Nosenga when he joined the hostel?  Did you relate details of the event of the attack to him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Joseph Radebe would make an example about someone else in front of him.  I think this is where he got some idea.

MS TANZER: What motive would you then give to Mr Nosenga for alleging that he participated in the attack if he did not participate in the attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The motive behind him saying that he was one of the people who participated in this Boipatong incident, perhaps he was regarding himself as a journalist, I don't know, or a newsman, I don't know.

MS TANZER: Now you've heard the version of Mr Nosenga that I've placed to all your fellow applicants to day, from the meetings that took place leading up to the attack and the attack itself.  I don't want to waste this Committee's time any further, so I'm just going to put to you that that is Nosenga's version, that there were policemen at the time assisting in the attack at Boipatong and that he did participate in the attack at Boipatong.  What are your comments and your comments regarding his statement?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I dispute that.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you, insofar as your version contradicts and differs Nosenga's that he is telling the truth and that you are not completely honest and open with this Committee, what are your comments?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I'm the one who is telling the truth.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Buthelezi, after you became aware of Mr Nosenga's statement that he was an ANC spy and that he had been sent by the ANC to come and plant bombs in the hostel, what steps were taken to isolate Mr Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: What do you mean, isolate him?

MR BERGER: Well, were any steps taken against Mr Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: What steps were taken were that he was taken to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: How long after the allegation that he was an ANC spy was it until he was taken to Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did get the question, I'm still thinking.  No, I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Well, was it a week, two weeks, a month?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I cannot even begin to estimate.

MR BERGER: This was shocking news wasn't it, for you to discover that the man who is sleeping in your room is an ANC spy who has come to kill you, and you can't tell the Committee whether he continued to sleep in your room for a week or for a month after you became aware of that allegation.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He was always under our watchful eyes, even though he went to the toilet at night.

MR BERGER: Is that your answer?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And then how did you become aware of the fact that he was being taken to Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: A meeting was convened at Kwamadala to the effect that on a particular day people would be going to a conference at Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Who addressed that meeting?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot recall.  I was not quite familiar with the community at the hostel, only a few people.

MR BERGER: That was a meeting attended by all the residents of the hostel, is that right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting it was announced that Mr Nosenga is to be taken to the conference in Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Nosenga at that meeting?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he too was present.

MR BERGER: So one can assume then that the entire hostel knew about Mr Nosenga and knew about his confession to be an ANC spy.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And nobody attempted to harm Mr Nosenga in any way, is that right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct, we received an instruction to the effect that we should not harm him.

MR BERGER: Oh, from whom?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: This came from Mr Thembankosi Khumalo.

MR BERGER: Was that also at a meeting held in the hostel immediately after it became known that Mr Nosenga was an ANC spy?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Would you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR BERGER: This instruction from Mr Khumalo, was it issued at a general meeting in the hostel immediately after it became known that Mr Nosenga was an ANC spy?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know who went to Ulundi with Mr Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, there were people with whom I shared a room who went to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Who were they?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Joseph Radebe, Serame Mokoena and Papie Skumbuzo.  In my room I think it was myself and a few others or should I say two boys who were twins.

MR BERGER: Did you go to Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: So Joseph Radebe, Serame Mokoena and papie Skumbuzo, they went to Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they did.

MR BERGER: And when they came back from Ulundi, did they tell you what happened there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, they just informed me that Nosenga was put on stage, introduced and he was made to explain what drove him to Kwamadala.

MR BERGER: He was put on stage at the national conference and made to explain himself?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was this in front of the top leadership of the IFP?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That's how they told me.

MR BERGER: And did they tell you what Mr Nosenga said when he was on stage?