Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MR VISSER: Yes, or whether they conducted a safe house in Botswana for MK's in transit, you wouldn't know about that, if it were true?

MS MBETHE: Their house in Broadhurst was an open house, you know, I mean it's a house where in fact at some point they hosted Hugh Masekela, you know he stayed with them for some time, it was a house where people were always there listening to music and having fun, you know it was not a house where you could house MK operatives.

MR VISSER: How far was this house from where you lived, where they lived?

MS MBETHE: It was 10, 15 minutes drive.  10 minutes drive.

MR VISSER: Yes.  It wasn't a house where you would frequent every day?

MS MBETHE: Not every day, but you know ...

MR VISSER: You went there often?

MS MBETHE: Very often and they came to my house quite often.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Ms Mbethe, you were asked the question whether any of the people that you speak about in your statement were involved in MK activities and would you know and you said:  "No, but I would be surprised".

MR VISSER: She said she would be surprised about some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let him complete the question.

MR BERGER: No, she didn't say:  "I'd be surprised about some of them", but I'll ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not quibble about it.  Get to the bottom of it.

MR BERGER: Well which of the people, if we can go through the list, which of the people in your statement would you be surprised if you were to learn today that they were involved in one way or another in MK activities at that time?

MS MBETHE: Let's start with Thami.  You know Thami was so heavily involved in the work of Medu, in the work of the Graphics Unit, he had trunks and suitcases packed, as I say in my statement, he was ready to go.  You see for some time there was word that a few of the comrades had to leave the area and it took Thami a long time to actually take the decision to pack and move to the rear, which is you know places like Lusaka or any other place, but finally that week he had made up his mind and he was leaving Botswana and he had packed his artwork, he had packed his things and he was going to be going to Lusaka and as I say, he was also going to go and participate in this International Youth Conference, so I would be surprised that a person who was so heavily involved in the kind of work that he was doing, would have had any time to have been engaged in anything else, let alone MK and then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mbethe, just to get it in its context.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In order to avoid me having to deal with an argument that we didn't deal with in evidence, if we're talking about June 1985, it's not every day a person moves house, it's not every day that someone has an opportunity to go to a conference in Russia, now do I understand you correctly that you would be surprised if he had time to involve himself in MK activities, because he was busy moving house and he was preparing to go to this Conference?  What about other times?

MS MBETHE: What I'm saying, on an ongoing basis in his life while he was in Botswana, Thami was an artist, that was just who he was and I mention here, for instance, the Poster Culture that emerged inside South Africa.  He was continuously involved, you know, in interactions with people coming from South Africa also on that level, on those kinds of issues, which in fact would befit a description like political work, because that would be political work.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying his enthusiasm for the arts didn't leave him much time to get involved in anything else?

MS MBETHE: I don't think so, that is my view.  And then we come to Mike Hamlyn.  Mike Hamlyn was a student, a very young, white South African who had come to Botswana and one of those, in fact, who I dare say would have been scared to go to MK.  You know, he was just a student.  The old man Mtsweni, was an old man, he basically just drove for the ANC, did all sorts of things where he needed to drive the van of the ANC, delivering supplies all over Gaberone.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS MBETHE: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What did that entail, driving and delivering supplies?

MS MBETHE: Supplies are like - you see the ANC in its different communities in exile at that time would look at its members in that area and there would be some of those people who were full-time engaged in the work of the ANC or who were young people on their way to schools abroad, in other  countries, and therefore the ANC is fully responsible for them wherever they were, so they would be accommodated maybe in a house and all their needs would have to be taken care of.  If they needed to be driven to hospital, to clinic, you know ANC transport would have to do that, but on a monthly basis, groceries would have to be delivered.  At that time I was actually one of those people.  I had a husband who was working, who was earning a salary, but for me and the children the ANC took responsibility and so the truck would come and deliver some supplies at my house as well, so I'm saying you know, there was that sort of thing that was happening and this old man helped in that kind of work.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, and I'm not for one minute suggesting that what I'm going to say now is true, in delivering supplies, do you discount Mr Mtsweni delivering supplies to MK, for example ammunition?  Do you discount it?

MS MBETHE: Ammunition. I doubt that he would be delivering eggs and ammunition at the same time.  You know he would ...

CHAIRPERSON: Survival supplies.

MS MBETHE: Yes.  Then George and Lindi.  George and Lindi, I mean Lindi was a civil servant in Botswana. You know she travelled all over the world on behalf of the Botswana Government.  George was full-time a business man.  He was up and down with these busses and they were at our house often.  Sometimes in fact they would complain that they are not told when there are alerts and yet know this because they will just come here one of these days and kill everybody.  You know, they sort of felt sometimes that they were not always told when there were alerts.
      George and Lindi, in fact they were due to go to Harare the day before, I don't know why they didn't go, so again that would be a couple I would say I would be surprised if anyone were to try ...

CHAIRPERSON: Were they connected to the ANC in any way?

MS MBETHE: They were ANC members.  All these people I'm talking about are people that I understood to be ANC members, we were all ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: And any connection to MK?

MS MBETHE: Not that I'm aware of.  They told me for instance about this man I say had become an askari, they told me that before they came to Gaberone they had been living in SeliwePikwe or somewhere, one of the smaller towns, and that they would from time to time be asked to accommodate someone who was in transit somewhere and that they remembered this man who was now an askari, trying to recruit George, as one of those people that they had accommodated in their house and of course, when you accommodate someone you are never told what this person is doing or where they are going, or whatever, they just gave accommodation, at least to that particular man.

MR BERGER: You described them as socialites in Gaberone.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Were they well known as socialites?

MS MBETHE: Oh ja, they were quite well-known.  Gaberone is a very small community, you know, so people like the South African community, tended to stick out.

MR BERGER: Alright.  Thank you Ms Mbethe, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
WITNESS EXCUSED
MIKE TURNED OFF
ON RESUMPTION