Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will take a lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

MS VAN DER WALT: (cont)
	Mr Fourie before we adjourned we were at the camp at the game farm and you gave evidence regarding the procedures that were followed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt can you just hold it please.  Can we settle down please?  Can we close that door?  Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: We were at the game farm as you call it, at Magaliesberg and according to your evidence there was strict discipline within this camp.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes we tried to enforce it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you, except for the Camp Commandant, did you have any other duties or services that you had to render?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there patrols?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes there were patrols in which I took part, Gert and myself.

MS VAN DER WALT: Albie Breers who was also arrested with you but he was never accused?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: These patrols, what did they entail?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well Commandant Duppie as we called him, he was in charge of these patrols.  We had to drive around on these farm roads to see if we find something wrong and then report back to him and remain in radio contact and do for example security.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, why are you applying for amnesty?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I was convicted and I must apply for amnesty in order for my release.

CHAIRPERSON: For what is this amnesty, for what charges?  Can you name them for me please?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not have everything with me.  They held me responsible for all the bombs that went out, the murder, explosives, possession of explosives, detonating devices that were in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: The three bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They said that I was responsible for all the bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: For all three bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: For all the bombs yes, the pipe bombs etc.

CHAIRPERSON: The bombs that were used in Bree Street?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That was used in Germiston?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that which was used at the airport?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct as well as the pipe bombs and explosives that they found when the people were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you applying for amnesty regarding the charges concerning Randburg?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words it's the four places?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us complete then your involvement with these four places?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes we're getting there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you say Randfontein?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I said it was Randfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us take it incident by incident, we don't want to hear about what happened before or what your position was at the farm.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I can't really hear what you said now.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want you may use the equipment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson with respect I would like to ask or state the applicant's evidence will now follow just after he arrived at the game farm.  It is actually impossible to take it incident for incident because I do not want to take it forward, all the evidence because at certain stages certain bombs went out because the other applicants who were for example just involved in the Randfontein incident, but his evidence entails an overview of all the bombs because he personally did not go out with the pipe bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Fine I am in your hands, I'm trying to prevent unnecessary evidence.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes I'll try my best but it is unfortunately as his evidence goes.  You said that you were patrolling the farm - on page 33, paragraph 22 this applicant would like to amend it, it is the same incident where Mr Le Roux also amended his.  It is a small amendment but it creates a wrong impression.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the amendment?

MS VAN DER WALT: This evidence, it is not as it says here that Barnard heard from him who was qualified in explosives and also that Le Roux already told Barnard that he knew Johannesburg.  That is actually the essence of the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying then, that on 23 April 1994 Clifton Barnard asked this witness for Koekemoer?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that Le Roux already told Clifford Barnard at a previous opportunity that he knew Johannesburg, he did not ask him at that stage.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You mention here paragraph 22 on page 133.  The first amendment was on the second line of that paragraph which must read as follows:  While we were at this game farm on Saturday 23 April 1994, Clifton Barnard asked me where Koekemoer was.  And then it goes on:  ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: The fact that he was an expert in explosives must also be added into that sentence.

MS CAMBANIS: Excuse me Mr Chair, it would appear that two rather substantial amendments are being made to paragraph 22 and perhaps it would be better if the applicant gave the evidence of what the amendment are because it appears from consultations that there's some doubt now whether those are the amendments and he is better placed in a position to say why these amendments are there than out of the mouth of his counsel.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I must comment, I would have expected representatives to have consulted each other on proposed amendments instead of just putting it on the table and there may be an objection to it.  So from now on clear it up with your colleagues before you put it on record.

MS VAN DER WALT: I apologise, it is basically just that the applicant is not satisfied with the words as they stand there but I think he should place it on record himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie would you like to repeat paragraph 22 as you would like it to read?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.
"While we were on the game farm on Saturday 23 April 1994, Clifton Barnard told me to go to Koekemoer and to hear from him if he knows about explosives and then send him back to me, that is now Clifton".
Please repeat?  
"Clifton Barnard told me to go to Koekemoer and to hear from him if he knows about explosives and then to send him to him.  ... (inaudible - end of tape).  Pieter Koekemoer confirmed this with me and then went to Cliffie".
That is how that paragraph should read Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are then any other amendments you would like to make concerning this paragraph?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The rest of this paragraph regarding Etienne who asked me who knew Johannesburg, this happened beforehand.

CHAIRPERSON: Please rectify the whole paragraph as you want it.

CHAIRPERSON: Must we remove that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So that which you have asked to be removed no longer exists? ...(transcriber's translation).

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that must be deleted.

MR PRIOR: Excuse me Mr Fourie you say that the part concerning Barnard, this happened earlier.  But if it did happen earlier, you must have knowledge of what it says here? ...(transcriber's translation).

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, Barnard in our presence - yes, okay now I understand your point Mr Chairperson, I do carry knowledge that Etienne Le Roux knew about Johannesburg.

MR PRIOR: So what is said here is correct, it just happened earlier on.  But it is saying that Barnard, earlier on on his farm, wanted to know from me who knows Johannesburg and Etienne Le Roux said that he knew it fairly well.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not want us to waste time on something that has already been discussed.