Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-10

CHAIRPERSON: I would like us to make a start and I begin by welcoming all of you who are attending this hearing.  In a moment I will formally welcome the delegation from MK high command.
 I want to put this in context and mention, for the record, that this is the final day of a four day hearing which started on Tuesday when the Apla high command was present and made a statement and answered questions.  They, on the Wednesday we had the former SADF who were here.  And yesterday the former South African Police and today we have former leaders of MK.
 The purpose of the hearing is to try and reach as much information as possible to assist and enable the Commission to do the work which the Act of Parliament lays down.  And in particular the Act demands of us, as a Commission, that we have as close to a picture and as full a picture as possible of what took place during the period of conflict, both motives and perspectives, perceptions, decision-making, communication, chain of command, accountability, etc.  These are the kinds of questions that we have been putting all week and we will continue to do that today.
 I want to remind you that this is not a court of law. No-one is on trial. At the same time we would ask that the decorum of a normal court shall be observed. 
 I want to also state that there is translation available, English, Afrikaans and Xhosa and if anyone wishes to avail themselves of that there are headphones and if you don't have a headphone please indicate that to one of our members of staff and we will make sure that you get that.
 The Interpreters are a very hard-working group of people in that box over there.  From time to time they may complain that one of us, either from the delegation or from the panel, are speaking too fast, they will indicate that if necessary and I will try and convey that so that we can achieve our work as efficiently as possible.
 I want to welcome the media who are present and are present at all the work of the Commission and to remind us again that a formal decision was taken in the Parliamentary debate that the work of the Commission should be in public and not behind closed doors and there was a reason for that.  The major reason as far as the Commission is concerned is that we do not want to see the TRC as a group of people sitting somewhere totally isolated from the rest of the country.  That if there is any worth in the work of the 
Commission at all, and I know there are many who would doubt that, but if there is any worth in the work of the Commission then it is right that as many people of the country should be apprised of that and obviously without the media we simply could not do that.
 The final point in this regard is this, that if there is to be unity, if there is to be reconciliation in this country then you cannot reach that at least without knowing the truth.  One of our objectives is truth-seeking and whether it be from victims, survivors or perpetrators, whether it be from the security forces or liberation forces makes no difference.  We want as complete a picture as possible, so we are grateful for the cooperation that we have received from so many.
 I want to introduce my own panel before moving directly on to the delegation.  On my far left, Ms Mary Burton who is a Commissioner and is a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and is based in Cape Town.  On my left is Dumisa Ntsebeza who has many titles, one of which is head of our Investigative Unit, but also in the absence of Archbishop Tutu he is acting deputy chair of the Commission.  On my right, Ilan Lax who is KwaZulu Natal, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and he's come to be part of these hearings for the entire week.  My name is Alex Boraine, I am the acting chair of the Commission and will chair this session at least until lunch time, 
after which I am hoping very much that Dumisa Ntsebeza will chair the afternoon session.  Mr Goosen on my right, assisted by Paul van Zyl will direct most of the questions, but obviously members of this panel are free to ask any questions and make any comments as well.
 Mr Modise I would like to welcome you very formally as the leader of your delegation and I hope that you will introduce your delegation to us.  All those who participate obviously have to take the oath, so once you have indicated what form this is going to take I will ask Mr Ntsebeza to assist you in taking that oath.  So welcome and we would like to hear from you now.  Thank you.

MR MODISE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  The delegation on my side is composed of Mr Abubakar Ismail, Minister Mac Maharaj; Deputy Minister Ronnie Kasrils; General Sipiwe Nyanda.  In addition we've got Premier Matthews Phosa, who is part of the delegation.  We have got Mr Sydney Gosho; we have got Miss Thandi Modise; we've got Mrs Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi; we've got Johannes Shabangu; we've got Zola Kakota; we've got Mrs Nosiviwe Naqkula.  This is our delegation.  We will do everything in our power to give this panel our fullest cooperation.
 Mr Maharaj will field most of the questions that are coming, in fact he is leader of this delegation.  Having said that Mr Chairperson I will then hand over to him, he may have a few remarks to make.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Modise.  Mr Mac Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I think the leader of our delegation seems to be making a distinction between commander-in-chief and leader. It's one that I am not familiar with.
 Mr Chairperson as you are well aware this is the third time we will be present before the Truth Commission in its public hearings.  We were in a little bit of difficulty when we received the subpoenas because we thought we had, as exhaustively as possible sought to answer the questions.  So this time we are not opening with any statement, what we would offer you is our cooperation in responding to any questions that you may want to put to us, both for further clarity or any new matter.  
 For the rest let us repeat that we think that the Truth Commission process has been very important for our country.  That many things that feature in our submission have been further elucidated by the work of this Commission.  It is now possible in many instances to say that what we asserted as a general understanding from the point of view of the African National Congress have now been substantiated by the work of many hearings.  
 So we would say once more that the work of this Commission is very important for the processes in this country in healing the wounds of the past, in adding to the basis for reconciliation and taking us forward as a nation and as a country.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson.  I am not so sure whether all of the persons that you mentioned Mr Modise are going to be testifying in which event it may be convenient to swear all of you now.

MR MODISE: I think all of us will testify and I am sure we are ready to take the oath.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I don't want to proceed on the basis of any assumption, are you all going to take the oath or are some of you or all of you going to make an affirmation?  In which event those who are going to make an affirmation maybe I will just ...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: There will be clearly some affirmations and some oaths.

MR NTSEBEZA: I would have expected so.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: We are a broad church after all.  (Laughter)

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Maybe let's start with all of those who will take the oath and if they can stand and Minister Modise will read the names of those into the record.

MR MODISE: I omitted the name of Mr Fana Hlongwane who is also behind us.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now are these going to take the oath?  Can you
read their names into the record?
GENERAL ABUBAKAR ISMAIL

JOE MODISE: (sworn states)

GEN NYANDA: (sworn states)