Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: You are saying it is what he did that made you
suspect him to be an informer, or is there anything in particular that you can name and mention to this Committee that you believed because of that he was genuinely suspected to be a spy?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I don't know where to start answering this question as to be in the manner that you want me to answer you.  But when a person starts behaving like that in the Organisation and within the ranks of the ANC Youth structure, somebody who tries to be against the leadership, somebody who behaves in the manner in which Nzimeni was behaving, you could just clearly see that there was a motive behind. He was a person that when you analyse him you could see that he was just acting on a mandate.  That was the thing that made us to have suspicions of him.

ADV CHRIS DE JAGER: Isn't the position that he wouldn't abide by the decisions of the ANC, maybe even he was jealous of your leadership and he wouldn't accept the ANC's discipline?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: There was a revelation that was made by Charles Mhlambiso, the one who was on attempted murder, there was a revelation that he made to us when we had caught him. That revelation was tape-recorded by the comrades. That tape record, we took it to the ANC National Headquarters, that tape regarding the revelation of Charles Mhlambiso, about the fact him and Nzimeni were being used by a certain Mr de Kock and a Mr Pretorius. Charles Mhlambiswa told us
1B.	this/...
163
this, whether he told us that because he was being intimidated and scared that we might beat him up but that was the revelation that he gave us.  One of their group members on the 30th of October, he jumped off at Kumbe and he made similar revelations that were made by Charlie and we took him to the police station instantly.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me the name of these two policemen again?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: A certain Mr de Kock, I know him as Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius.

UNKNOWN: When was this revelation made to you by Mshambi?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I don't remember the date clearly, but it was before Nzimeni was killed.

JUDGE WILSON: You have said, and I just want to make quite sure I understood you, the revelation was made by Charles Mhlambiso "when we had caught him", so it was you who caught him, is that so?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: No the comrades caught him and I found him at Mary Agnes. I found him at Mary Agnes being caught by the comrades.

JUDGE WILSON: That's not what you said a minute or so ago, you then said, "when we had caught him".  Where was this tape recording taken?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Detect a problem, because when I say we, I use a collective approach, so I have a problem that I'll have a problem with that.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.  And where was this tape recording made?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: In Mary Agnes' house.

JUDGE WILSON: So he was taken to Mary Agnes' house, questioned, a tape recording was taken and when was he
1B.	assaulted/...
164
assaulted?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: He was assaulted on the 31st of October. On that day he was not assaulted. It was before the attempted murder when he gave that revelation, he was not assaulted on that particular day.

UNKNOWN: Why had your group caught him, why had you apprehended Mhlambiso?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: It's because we were looking for them, we were looking for them desperately. We were fighting with
their group. We were fighting with them, and the struggle as well.

UNKNOWN: What did you intend to do with him after you had caught him?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: As I've said, as I've already mentioned that I was a member of the working group and after having explained this and Patrick Nkondona in the meeting of the working group, Mr de Beer said that they couldn't find them, they have run away.  That's one of the reasons that made us to look for them desperately, to search for them, Charles and Nzimeni.

UNKNOWN: You haven't answered question did you catch him with the purpose of taking him to the police station?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you take him to the police station?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: No we never took him to the police station. He asked us not to.

JUDGE WILSON: Well that's fairly probable isn't it, why did you listen to him? You caught him because you wanted to take him to the police station because you were fighting with his group, why didn't you?
1B.	MR GCINISIZWE/...
165

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: The thing is we were satisfied by the information that he gave us and we had to take this information to the National Office of the ANC so that they should guide us as to what to do after these revelations by Charles. The issue of the police, we'd see to it afterwards, because he pleaded with us that should Nzimeni know that he was there, then he would be in trouble.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't it likely he would go and tell the people he was working for, Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius that you had captured him?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Can you repeat the question?

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't it likely if you released him that he would go to Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius and tell them that your gang was after him, that you'd captured him, you'd forced him to tell you what he was doing.

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: No we never thought about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps this might be a convenient stage to the short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may proceed.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Gcinisizwe, we had the background and the events of the time and what happened to your involvement that is the role.  The question that I want to ask you now is, do you believe in your mind that what happened or transpired at the time was politically motivated?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I believe so.

<UNKNOWN>: Referring you to your application again, Chairperson, members of the Committee, it's in this
1B.	application/...
166
application form, Section 10B.  You said the Court acknowledged the fact that the offence was politically motivated. The question that I want to pose to you is when you wrote this statement, are you, or did you rely on your memory of what happened at Court during trial or on some documentation you may like it to be produced for members of the Committee?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Both and documentation.

<UNKNOWN>: The documentation I want to assume that what I have in my possession, it's a, I don't know if you are
referring to  it, it's only an article of a newspaper. Are you referring to it?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I'm referring to the article of City Press 20th March, it was written by Dan Dhlamini, in the documentation.

CHAIRPERSON: 20th of March of what year?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: 1994.

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, I believe members of the Committee were afforded this article.

JUDGE WILSON: Before you go on, I don't know if it's only my paper that's a problem, is if you look at 10B, it says, the Court acknowledges the fact that the offence was politically motivated, then, see enclosed separate pages for a brief motivation. Now I take it those are the pages which are numbered 5, 6, 7 and 8. They follow immediately after, are those the pages?

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, if it is referred to the page 1 that is written Section 10B and others that follow, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Then it says, full disclosure, motivation has been submitted to the Department of Justice. Now I don't
1B.	know/...
166
know if we are supposed to have that document before us, I have not seen it?