Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: M'Lord, I'll repeat what I've already said.  I don't want to talk about the race, because you want me to talk about the race, I don't see any white person here, I only see people, we wrote this for you to understand.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I'm talking about the supermarket, because I'll tell you why I'm asking this, because Comrade Bhani, if I'm not mistaken, said something different.  He said the idea was to kill mainly the white people, or no, he said actually only the white people.  Now that's why I'm asking the question.  Please, do you understand this and can you please answer the question?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Do you have a problem with white, the word "white", or the attack itself, can you please help me with that, because really I don't understand your problem.  Do you have a problem with the word "white" or do you have a problem with the attack on the supermarket?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is that Mr Bhani gave evidence that they attacked, the objective was to attack and kill only white people, that's the question that's now being put to you.  Now whether those white people are oppressors or non-Africans or simply white, let's not argue the language, we know what we're talking about, are you saying the same, or are you saying the objective was to kill everybody there?  This is really the question.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Now I understand it now.  When coming to your level, it was to kill the white people only.

MR STEENKAMP: So Sir, I have to ask you this, was this then a racist attack on the supermarket?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, I think we have canvassed that, it's... (intervention).

MR STEENKAMP: All right, I'll leave that question, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: May I follow that question through, because you're now saying it was only to kill the whites or oppressors or non-Africans or whatever, let's not argue the debate, and in that sense to kill only the white people, but you responded immediately and you said that the objective, in cross-examination by Mr Steenkamp, you said the objectives were twofold:  the one was to get money;  the second was to kill everything alive in the supermarket, and the question relates not to your broader policy, but to the supermarket attack. The question is, in other words, if there were indigenous people in the supermarket, would they have been killed or not?  If there were non-oppressors in the supermarket, if there were oppressed people in the supermarket, would they have been killed or not?  That's the question?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Yes, oh yes, I should have heard it, that is in exception of the attack should, I mean everything should, living should have been killed in except, or in the exception of the oppressed and the exploited.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not say that, you repeatedly said, or said on more than one occasion, "I told them, I told the unit commander that everything that is alive must be dead", no distinctions, everything that is alive must be dead, that is what you said you told your unit commander.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do that, is that what you told them?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I can say they went there knowing very well that there will be two people, the oppressor and the oppressed.  If it happens that the oppressed will be there, maybe waiting there, they will have to try by all means not to involve them in that attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever say to that to them?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you tell us about it, why do we have to ask you these questions and then to get it in a round about way?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Khotle, the difficulty is that, as the Chair has pointed out, on several occasions you said that the instructions were to go into that supermarket and kill everything alive, you said it on several occasions, everything alive.   You never said oppressors, you never said white people, you never said Europeans, you said everything alive, or is everything alive meant to be understood to be only Europeans or oppressors or settlers or whatever you want to refer to them as?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I understand your problem.

MR STEENKAMP: No, Mr Khotle, it's not my problem, it's your problem, because you've got to be able to tell us what you want to tell us.  If we don't understand you, it becomes your problem.  We have to make a decision and we want to understand you.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: What I can say is that the hearing is continuing.  That which I have not said, because the hearing is continuing, I don't think that will be a problem, because the hearing is still continuing.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm not sure whether it's the interpretation or the answer, could you help us?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: What I'm saying is that, that which I did not say, what I said is that the attack should be directed to everything that is alive there, so I'm saying that it is good that the Member of the Committee has managed to ask me.  So my understanding is that the hearing is continuing, so I don't see any problem why should this be an issue, because you are still continuing with the hearing?

CHAIRPERSON: Because you are supposed to tell us the truth and to make a full disclosure, and if you have not been doing that, you will not be granted amnesty in terms of the Act.  It is not our function to go on questioning you for hours on end so you can come up with a different version after a different version.  Your counsel has consulted with you, he has led your evidence, and you chose to adopt the line that the instructions you gave were the strong instructions to kill everything that moved, everything that lived.  That is the evidence you chose to give, and it is not our function, as has been pointed out to you, to go on asking question after question so that you can then come out with another version.  Do you understand?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I don't have a problem with that, Mr Chair.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, the Committee, what it wants is that can you explain what do you mean when you said that they must kill everything that was alive in the supermarket, does that mean include even the oppressed people, that's what they want to know, what is the meaning of that statement?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I will answer as follows, like I've already said before, it is true that I said everything that is alive should be killed, it is also true that I didn't add the explanation that except the Africans.  Now I'm giving the explanation, or I added what I've already said when I said everything that is alive should be killed, with the exception of the oppressed.  So that is the explanation that I'm giving now.

CHAIRPERSON: Would "everything alive" include foreigners or tourists from other countries?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Firstly, if there are people like tourists, they came here knowing the situation in this country and they were not written that they come from abroad.  If it happened that way, then it would have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not now telling us that, in order to identify oppressors, you look only at colour, that's why you would mistake a visiting tourist to be an oppressor?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: How would I know that they are tourists, how would I know that they are Chinese or they are Russians, how would I know that they were French?  What is important is that, what was important was my freedom and the freedom of Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: So, for that reason, you would kill everybody white, wherever they came from, for the sake of your freedom, is that what you are now telling us?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That is exactly what I'm saying, as long as I would get the freedom of my land, then I would do that.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm finished, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP