Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Yes.  Yes, it was so because he also held his sister with his hand.  I was not there, I was at work.  Even when he was killed he was together with his younger sister and this young sister of his could not explain to us how it happened.  Even though he had held her in his hand, she was able to speak at that time.  Even when I ask her now how Lucky got killed she cannot explain at this moment.  I tried to remind her that you were at Makopane's place, but she cannot remember anymore.  The other girl removed Lucky's body from this younger child.  It is not this young child who did that.
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CHAIRPERSON: Was Lucky a scholar by then?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he not go to school on that day?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I do not know whether these school children had not attended school on that day, but he was a scholar by then.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the police ever visit your home to look for Lucky?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: No, that did not happen while in my presence.  There was no police who came to my house looking for Lucky in my presence.  That is why I was surprised when I heard that the police were at my place looking for Lucky.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Lucky always at home or did he from time to time get called for, by Comrades for meetings?  I could not hear your answer.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Yes, he use to attend meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: I will invite questions from my panel.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good day to you Mr Phatlane.  In your statement you say that Lucky did not die immediately, he ran and two white policemen, you say, came into the yard of the house where, that he ran into.  These police ordered my son to open his mouth and they shot him through the mouth.  Now that information, you say that you heard that, but you also in your testimony said that you actually went to the mortuary where Lucky was lying.  Now, did you actually have a chance to look at the body when you and did you actually see when you looked at Lucky, were there any indications that he had, perhaps, been shot in the mouth?  Were there any wounds anywhere near that part of his body?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: What I saw at that time because our ...  I could not hold myself at that time because Lucky was close
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to my heart.  If I had been brave I could have opened his mouth.  This I heard after being to the mortuary and the hospital, but what surprised me was the blood oozing from his ears.

RUSSELL ALLY: And was an autopsy ever performed?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I have never heard of such autopsy that was conducted.  Whether they did do a post-mortem to discover what killed him or what was the cause, I do not know.  I was never informed of such.  Until we buried him I could not stomach the pain of looking at my son.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just a last question.  The court case, because there was a case in the Magistrates Court in Pretoria.  Can you just tell us a little bit about that court case, what you recall?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Do you mean the case that was in Pretoria?  There was a file that was brought to my place.  My name was written on that file.  Then I left for court.  They said that I have to appear before court because of Lucky.  Magistrate asking me are you Lucky's father?  I said, yes.  He asked me again, was your son killed by the police.  I said, yes.  Do you have evidence that he was killed by the police?  I said, those who witnessed can bring evidence. Even they say the cars that were around when Lucky was shot until he fell in somebodies yard.  Even when the police came the second time they witnessed that incident.  Unfortunately, I could not find those witnesses.  I forgot the second the part of your question.  Could you please repeat the second part of your question, please.

RUSSELL ALLY: That is fine, thank you very much.  I was asking about the court case and what you remember about the court case.
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WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: The Magistrate said to me your documents say that your son was killed by the police, but there is no evidence to that effect, but I told him that is so, but however due to what I heard, it is the police who killed him and I told him that there is no police who came to my place to ask about Lucky.  However, later on they came to enquire about Lucky, whether he stays here.  I said, yes. When I asked them what they were doing at my place they said they wanted to know the facts surrounding Lucky's murder because I was at work I could not tell them what happened.  Then after that they left.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Phatlane, I would like to ask you just a few questions about your own circumstance.  You are 69 years of age and you are not working.  Who is caring for you?  Do you get a pension?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I do receive a pension.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Thank you and your children, how many children do you still have apart from Mmaphefo, the small daughter?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Do you mean children who are supported by me?

PROF MEIRING: Yes. It is his brother.  Those who are my dependents are four in number.  Those that I look after.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you and just a last question.  Mmaphefo, the little girl who was there, she must be now round about eight years of age.  How is she?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: She is well and she is attending school also.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Does she still suffer, you say that she cannot remember, she cannot retell what happened, but does she still have nightmares or do you ...

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: She does not remember anything.  Even when we try to ask her, but previously she would tell us what
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happened on that day.  She did tell us even when his brother was shot for the second time.  She said he knelt down and then he fell on his side.

PROF MEIRING: Are you satisfied that she is through the process or do you think she still needs some counselling or help?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Who?

PROF MEIRING: Your daughter.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I do take care of her with the little money that I receive from the Government which is pension funds that I receive, I do take care of her.  If Lucky was around I would say, maybe, I would have financial problems, but now I am surviving with the little money that I have I can manage to feed my children.  However, I still have problems, but with the little girl, I do not have much problems.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.

MR LEWIN: Mr Phatlane, could I just go back to the court case a year after.  Were there, were the police in court, were they were being charged at the time?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Could you repeat the question please?

MR LEWIN: Again.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: They were not accused, they were not even arrested.

MR LEWIN: Because you mentioned also that there was one other child who was buried with your son who had also been shot at the same time.  Were there, was there never any indication of finding the people who were responsible?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: My son was buried together with the other two.  The other one was shot, I cannot tell where his father is at the moment.  He was shot the same day when my son was shot and killed.  They were buried together, the three of them.
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CHAIRPERSON: I would ask the last question.  When you arrived at the mortuary and you came across these corpses, as you say, would you say all of these corpses had to do with the police shooting because there was a march at that place?