Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, does that relate to the Boipatong Massacre?

MR BERGER: Indeed it does.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please let's get to the point at some point.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if I could just tell you that this document came out of the docket.  It has a covering sheet, the subject is
"Moord: Boipatong 92.06.17"
And it says and I'm translating:
"Attached is a statement from a nameless person which has been obtained in a very sensitive way"
Second paragraph:
"The content of the statement was for me however of great value in the investigation.
		Please hand this over to Lieutenant Colonel Eager and explain the situation to him"
And then it speaks about one of the people mentioned in the statement.  Now this statement is particularly relevant to the Boipatong attack, I would submit.  I've tried to get to the point as quickly as possible by, instead of asking a whole lot of questions, to say to the witness: "Can you confirm this", and to take him through the statement.  I can't think of a quicker way of doing it, thank you.  
	I will try and summarise large chunks and then you can tell me whether you agree or don't agree Mr Mthembu.  I will leave out the non-important parts.  He says:
"All the residents of the Kwamadala Hostel are members of the Inkatha Freedom Party.  Amongst the residents there are individuals whom are leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party"
Correct?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.
MR BERGER
"Amongst them is one, Buthelezi"
One of the leaders, yes?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He then says
"A system exists at the Kwamadala Hostel whereby each resident becomes part of a unit"
Is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.
MR BERGER
"I was placed in a unit consisting of four members"
Mr Mthembu, how many members were in your unit?

MR MTHEMBU: There were three.

MR BERGER: And who were the people in your unit?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Thembelani Buthelezi, myself and Ntwzee, the secretary.

MR BERGER: Do you know people in any of the other units?

MR MTHEMBU: There were some although I cannot specify their names but there were people in other units.

MR BERGER: And what were these units called, what was the name given to these units?

MR MTHEMBU: They were the Indunas in the hostel.

MR BERGER: Were you an Induna?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: I don't understand, but let me continue.  He says
"I was trained in the use of weapons by Buthelezi"

MR MTHEMBU: I don't know anything about that, I don't even know who you are talking about.

MR BERGER: Well he goes on to say
"Every resident is trained in the use of weapons"

MR MTHEMBU: I don't have knowledge of that.

MR BERGER: Well you were trained in the use of weapons were you not?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: How was it possible for you to successfully apply for three firearms if you had no training in weapons?

MR MTHEMBU: I think that is a mistake, there were two guns not three.  I went to the Vereeniging shooting range and that's where I practised shooting.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I don't have copies available for the Committee at this stage but I have a document which is also taken from the docket, which is an extract from Mr Mthembu's identity document and in there there is space for firearm licences.  There are three firearm licences reflected there.  I will make copies of that document and hand it in to the Committee.
	Two of those guns I can tell you Mr Mthembu, were applied for and granted at the beginning of 1992 and the third gun was applied for and granted at the beginning of June 1992.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, I admit that I applied for licences for my guns but what I do not agree with is the amount, the number of guns.  I explained even yesterday that I have only two guns.

MR BERGER: Did you or did you not successfully apply for a licence at the beginning of June 1992?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's assume this man had 20 firearms, how is that relevant to the question of whether or not he went to Boipatong and was part of the attack and indeed he took part in the attack?  I think the point has been made. I gather that you're going to give us some documentation to support what you're saying, and that is that he had three firearms issued to him and he says on the one hand that he only had two.  He's given us an explanation yesterday as to how that occurred.  Can you take the matter any further, because I think all that you need to do is just to provide us with the documents which indicate that.

MR BERGER: As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because I don't think we'll take the matter any further now, you've made the point.

MR BERGER: The question I want to ask you Mr Mthembu is, why were you applying for so many weapons and why were you making application in June of 1992 for another weapon?

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, the reason for applying for these licences was for self-protection where I resided and also in the streets.

MR BERGER: And for that you needed more than one gun?

MR MTHEMBU: I applied for two because I needed them.

MR BERGER: Let me continue with this affidavit.
"I am aware that other members of other units who were also trained in the use of weapons"

MR MTHEMBU: I don't have any comment on that.
MR BERGER
"I have seen many arms and ammunition stored in the Kwamadala Hostel"

MR MTHEMBU: I don't have any knowledge of that.

MR BERGER: Well let me refer you to page 6 of your amnesty application, page 6 of the bundle, paragraph 7.  You say there
"Vanana Zulu was in control of the weapons at Kwamadala Hostel.  The weapons that I can recall were AK47's.  There were more or less 20 and hand weapons.  There were more or less 8 to 10 that I saw.  These weapons were brought to the Kwamadala Hostel by Xoltlo from Vosloorus"

MR MTHEMBU: That so correct.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Well then why do you dispute the sentence which I just read out to you
"I have seen many arms and ammunition stored at the Kwamadala Hostel"

MR MTHEMBU: I don't understand where you get that from or where it comes from.

CHAIRPERSON: The difficulty that you have there Mr Berger is this, you're reading a document in which the person who made that statement claims that he saw these firearms.  Now when the witness says: "I can't comment, I don't know about that", he may well be saying: "I don't know whether there person saw those weapons".  Do you see the difficulty?

MR BERGER: Perhaps my question was too loose.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed, indeed.

MR BERGER: You do know about arms and ammunition stored at the Kwamadala Hostel do you not?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, I do.

MR BERGER: For how long had those arms been stored at Kwamadala?  Since you arrived were there arms or was it only after you arrived?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not know about that because when I arrived there were already residents at Kwamadala Hostel and I did not know whether they were already stored there or not.

MR BERGER: When did you become aware of the fact that arms were being stored at Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I first knew because I saw them when we went to attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Was that the first time that you became aware that weapons were being stored at Kwamadala Hostel, the night of the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: Before that night, before the 17th of June 1992, you were not aware of any arms that were being stored at Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: No, Sir.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say in paragraph 8, page 6
"These weapons were kept by Vanana Zulu and he hid them away.  I saw these weapons when they were handed to us by Vanana Zulu one by one"
Are you saying that that is on the night of the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I am trying to explain here that I saw the weapons on the night or on the evening that we were supposed to attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Yes, but when you say in your affidavit
"These weapons were kept by Vanana Zulu and he hid them away"