Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the shooting on the Saturday, when everybody had gathered at Magwaza's place.  What was the size of the IFP group then?

MR MPONGOSI: That will be difficult for me to say, because I was so infuriated but yes, I must give an estimation.  I cannot be sure, they could have been thirty-something to 40.  That is my estimation.  I am not certain about that because it was quite busy.

MR DRAHT: Sorry Chairperson, Mr Mpongosi how many people was before the shooting in the ANC group?

MR MPONGOSI: They were so large in number, such that I cannot even begin to estimate, but yes, they were many.  They could have been two big groups, two very big groups.

MR DRAHT: You said that the IFP were about 40 persons.  How many times the IFP group, would the say the ANC group was?

MR MPONGOSI: We could have had to be many many times in a group to equal the ANC.  Maybe three times.

MR DRAHT: The firearm you had in your possession, was it your firearm?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes, it was my firearm.

MR DRAHT: Did you have a licence for that firearm?

MR MPONGOSI: No I did not.

MR DRAHT: Where did you get it from?

MR MPONGOSI: I had bought it had Zevenfontein.  I had had it for days, at the time.

MR DRAHT: Can you remember from who did you buy it?

MR MPONGOSI: There are Shangaan boys who came.  I used to refer to them as Sambonani.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you buy it?

MR MPONGOSI: Around those days it had become apparent that we would end up fighting, because there was fighting between the IFP and the ANC all over the place, that each one of us had to prepare themselves.

MR DRAHT: How much ammunition did you have with you?

MR MPONGOSI: I had six loaded, but I did not have enough.  I had six loaded and four extra.

MR DRAHT: What type of firearm did Mr Sithole shoot with?

MR MPONGOSI: I noticed that he had an AK, because of the barrel.

MR DRAHT: Can you remember how many persons were injured that day, from the ANC side?

MR MPONGOSI: I have no certainty, I only learned well whilst we were at Morningside at the police station where I was informed that four people were injured, actually four died, and seven of them were injured during the fighting.  This was confirmed at the police station.

MR DRAHT: The person that you referred to earlier on being shot, the person that fell to the ground, did you know him?

MR MPONGOSI: No, I knew the ANC, but I didn't know the names of the people.  I just knew them by sight.  I just knew him by sight.

MR DRAHT: That will be all Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Mr Claassen do you have any questions?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, just maybe a single aspect.  I do not want to inconvenience the Committee, it's just something I would like to perhaps clear up with ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, you've got the right to do so.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I could just approach you, without even ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Approach.  Mr Draht?

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, Mr Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh Mr Sithole yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole yes, that is correct.  Something was just said about him, which I would just like to get some clarification on if I may.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  That's cleared up, I've got no questions for this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Claassen.  Mr Cachalia, do you have any questions?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Mpongosi you told us about what had happened on the Saturday morning as you were coming from the Jukskei River.  And your confrontation with Mr Majola.  And then you told us about a meeting with the people on the sports field, with spears and whatever else they might have.  When was the first confrontation with the Majola incident when you were coming up from the Jukskei River?

MR MPONGOSI: I did explain that, that this happened to me and Majola, or what happened to us, or maybe I don't know the time but it was not too far apart.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Coming up from the river first happened and then you met the people on the sports field.  Am I right?

MR MPONGOSI: You mean coming from the river?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm just trying to establish the sequence of events, this is what you've told us in your evidence-in-chief. You first told us about your on the Saturday you were coming from the Jukskei River you were going up to Magwaza's place there was a problem with a with a Mr Majola at Majetani's shop.  You said this is around twelve or past one, then you talk about the meeting at on the sports field.  Now was that after you had had the problem with Majola?

MR MPONGOSI: We're already done at Majola's, in other words the Majola issue comes first.  Then the ground or the soccer field event follows the Majola.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That's what I was suggesting that that is because it was in a sequence its it was second.  What time was that about Mr Mpongosi?

MR MPONGOSI: As I said, it was not too long after that had happened.  I don't know exactly as to what time but my estimation will be around past eleven, because I did not waste time at Zwane, we hurried to Sithole's.  I did not have any watch, or I don't know the time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Clearly that would be incorrect because you said that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I think what he's saying Mr Cachalia, he estimated first of all between twelve and around one, and now he's estimating between, let's say eleven.  He said it was overcast and he's estimated, but we know the sequence.  It was first Majola and then Justin and the group on the field, but we know that it was on his estimation some hours before five o'clock in any event.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now Mr Mpongosi the person you referred to as Justin, is that the Dastile, the chairperson the ANC that you're talking about, or is it his brother who is sitting next to me?

MR MPONGOSI: It was the brother, the late.

AZHAR CACHALIA: He was the person you met with six or seven other people on the sports field?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And they were armed.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you say that you asked them not to approach you and there was a shot fired and they ran away.  By your companion ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said.  He said that.  I don't think we need to get him to confirm it.
...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I am saying that this sequence of event about the sports field with the late Mr Dastile is the first time that we've heard it even from you and from any of the other applicants.  It has never been mentioned before.  Do you agree with that?

MR MPONGOSI: Well it's my first time tendering evidence here.  This is why now I want to tell you about what happened to me and things I did myself.  This is in relation to me.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You reported that to Mr Sithole, is that right?

MR MPONGOSI: The people who approached from the other direction, I was already coming from Mr Sithole ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpongosi the question is, did you report that confrontation you had with, the late Mr Dastile on the sports field to Mr Sithole.  That is the question.  The answer is a yes or a no.

MR MPONGOSI: I never went back to Sithole.  I went downwards to Magwaza's house or place.

MR LAX: The question was not did you go back to Sithole's house and report to him.  Did you report it to Sithole at any time either before or after the incident?

MR MPONGOSI: I already reported to Sithole.

MR LAX: You're missing the point.

MR MPONGOSI: This issue had not yet happened at the time you reported to Sithole.  We're talking about the point at which you were attacked by the second group in the middle of the sports field, when Zwane fired a shot which then dispersed those people.  After that point in time, did you report it to Sithole, or Magwaza, or someone else for that matter?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you report it to Sithole?