Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

MR NDOU: What I understood the question to mean was whether he agrees, is there any other thing that he doesn't agree with in the document and I thought at that stage it will be very dangerous for him just to say yes or no unless he ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Look, I can appreciate that.  All I'm concerned about is of the import of the question was does he know that document and then he decides to read it to find out if he knows the document.  Let's proceed because I'm not very happy that people come sit and read documents that they should be reading long before they come here.

MR NDOU: Maybe the problem is he didn't understand the question because I also didn't understand the way you're putting it to me now.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.  Okay now the answer or the question was do you know the contents of that document plus the annexures?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that bit of the document, that annexures intended by you to be part of the application?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: All those things which are in this document, this is what is exactly the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not asking whether it's the truth, listen to the question.  When you made your application did you intend the annexures to be part of your application?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you there with that answer you agree with the contents of these documents because it has been included, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: You agree with the contents of this document because you consented it to be included in your application?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I didn't hear your question properly, could you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: By the very fact that you agreed that document, your application must be supplemented by the annexures.  The question is that you wanted the contents thereof to be part of the application?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm going to be quite fair to you and I want you to think very carefully on the question.  Think about it, don't answer as a matter of convenience.  All the facts as contained in those annexures, 1 and 2, do you agree with everything or only part of it or what is the position.  Do you want both to be part of your application or sections of it?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: All the sections in annexure A and B, I want them to be part of my application, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) section?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: When was the first time that you saw these annexures?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: If I can remember well I think I've seen them for the first time in 1997.

ADV SIGODI: So when your application was sent to Cape Town had you already seen these annexures?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: When my application was sent to Cape Town by then I have not seen them, but I have seen them when my application was already gone to Cape Town or sent to Cape Town.

ADV SIGODI: Who gave you these annexures.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: A certain representative of us who is working with, there is a certain gentleman in a committee we formed who is working with our representative and I think his name is Abraham who is working with Mr Ndou will see to it that our things will go in order.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Now when you consulted with your legal representative, did you bring to his attention the fact that the date of birth is incorrect on the form?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I did explain to him.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Can you just tell this hearing what offences have you been convicted of?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's murder and arson and assault.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How many counts of murder?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Three counts.

CHAIRPERSON: For what do you make amnesty application?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I'm making amnesty application in all those counts seeing that all these counts in which I was found guilty had happened on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in respect of whom do you make the murder applications, who are the victims there?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's Maphaha and Madadzhe.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes and the third one?  Who is the third person you have been convicted of murdering?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: There's no other third person that we were alleged to have killed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You've just testified that you've been convicted of three counts of murder, who is the other person?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he intended is to say three offences, two murders, one assault, one arson.  Did I understand that correctly?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Because it's two counts of murder, arson and assault, it's four?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes, it's four.

CHAIRPERSON: The assault, GBH, on whom was that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Assault, GBH, occurred Chinak Simete, if I'm giving the right surname, I'm not sure of the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say the surname was?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Simete.

CHAIRPERSON: And the arson?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: We burnt the house of Mr Mbatha.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Now what was your sentence for each of these four counts that you've been convicted of?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: In these counts I was sentenced to 46 years.  The difference is that all counts would run concurrently so if they're running concurrently it was decided that I will be in jail for 20 effective years of which three years was suspended and so it remained being 17.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, what I want to find out is for each of the offences what was your sentence, each separate.

CHAIRPERSON: Well at best it must be 20 years or less.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Count one, I was sentenced for 20 years.  Count 2, I was sentenced for 20 years, count 3 it was 5 years, count 4 it was 12 months.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay and tell us about the assault on this Mrs Simete.  When did this happen?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It happened on the very same day on which all these counts were happened, that was on the 2nd February 1990.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And how did you assault her?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The only lady Chineko Simete is the person who was being interrogated before being assaulted.  She was asked to name the people you used to commit those crimes with and it was seen that she was not prepared to talk and then we decided to use our bare hands and then I used to lashes and today two people who were there who was using sticks in their possession.

CHAIRPERSON: What was she doing with other people?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: What was she doing that you were wanting to know she was doing with other people?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I think yesterday I explained that while we were in the meeting people were naming other people, I was writing the list, she was falling under the people who were in the list of witches.

CHAIRPERSON: So you wanted to find out from her who the witches were with that she was working?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes on that day we were intending to find out from her other people with whom she used to work in witchcraft.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you trying to extract from her information about other witches, also to add them onto the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And did she give you those names?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes she gave us those names.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How many people were added onto the list because of this interrogation on the old lady?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Two names.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What two names?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: They gave us Kambani, I don't know the first name and again Makawu's name.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was Makawu's name already on the list at that stage?