Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: You captured these persons?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, we did capture them Sir, we took them to the community in block F where there was the first corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Under way Sir, as we had captured them, the one that I know was Charles, I mean Motibang.  His father was a person whom I knew very well before because as I arrived in Moleleki Extension 2 I used to know him from the previous meetings that we addressed there.
	I was surprised when I saw him carrying belongings of Giana, things that belonged to Giana and that bottle.  As they had started accusing each other on the way, saying Tusanang is the one who landed them in trouble.  By that time we had not seen Tusanang and everything that was happening in Moleleki Extension 2.
	As the ANC Youth League was under the ANC umbrella or the civic and these cases, the people that I had spoken about.   As I have explained, in these instances of these dead people, as we had this violence, the ANC Youth League and as they were people who were in Moleleki Extension 2 in incidents that occurred in Moleleki Extension 2 they were not there when a person is dead.  They would not come to cram around the dead person.  That gave me - it gives me assurance that these cases that I have spoken about came as a result of them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to where the community had gathered in and around a spot where Bulelwa's body was found and you've told us that these persons that you had captured had began accusing one another, saying that Tusanang was responsible.  Yes, proceed.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, it is so.  On arrival Buthelezi, I think he is the son, as he was captured by myself holding him with the left arm he had a belt on the upper arms and when I asked who he was he said he is Buthelezi's son.  I did not that that very same Buthelezi was the one in block F or somebody else or because they are so many Buthelezi's in Gauteng I did not know which Buthelezi he was talking about.
	He said: "Our father is to blame" and they were blaming each other on the way.  And I said to them: "My boys, because we are going to the community you will explain the rest when we get there".  Indeed we arrived and we produced them to the community and we then left immediately.  We did not arrive at the Red Cross that we were going to and Ntjebe himself did not show up together with Sepo Baloi ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] to them, to the community, did you leave them with the community or did you go with them, the captured?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We left them with the community under the supervision of our comrades belonging to the self-defence unit together with the shack community.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Bulelwa's body was found?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, the corpse was still there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - were these persons then put in one of the shacks?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: In this shack ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] were put in a shack whilst you were there?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I know.  We went on our way to try and get hold of the Red Cross, summoned help now that we had two corpses.  When we were at A Tusanang showed up from the B direction.  He was wearing an overall and the sleeve on the left hand was loose and he was carrying an AK47.
	If I am not mistaken there were three of those that we caught.  I did not know the two and because we were on our way to the Red Cross it was not easy then because here are these people, they come from block B rushing through, running away to block A carrying these guns and others were carrying these looted things from the Spaza shop, Blanko's Spaza shop.  
	Myself being a person who was with Tusanang indicated that this is exactly what we were talking about, Tusanang wanted to beat him up.  According to my knowledge Tusanang stayed in block C and to be found in that place in block A coming from block B became something very strange, very strange.  
	What I'm trying to say here, we escorted them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who was with you when you came across Tusanang and the to others?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I was with comrade William Ramabele, called Sugar.  We escorted them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] okay.  You had gone to look for assistance in view of the two dead persons namely Bulelwa and Blanko.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That's correct.  Sir, we finally got to block F and when we got there there were now six of them and comrade Ramabele Miageti suggested that they join the other three and I refused with reference to Tusanang because these three that we first apprehended and the other three, I felt that because the community was still there, we wanted an explanation as to what the origin of this is and where it is headed.
	I refused to let Tusanang be one of those who are taken into the shack.  Ramabele wanted Tusanang to be part of the people in the shack.   ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: You say Tusanang was accusing Ramabele, did you say that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I am saying Tusanang, that is - and the three that we caught earlier on protected him.  Ramabele wanted Tusanang to be part and join the others who were locked up in the shack and I refused.  We wanted an explanation because the community was there and there was Bulelwa's corpse there as well.  We wanted him to explain what was happening, what went wrong.
	I did not agree to hand Tusanang over to the other group in the shack so that he could explain to the community.  We went on trying to get help from the Red Cross ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: Sorry, what did you do with Tusanang, did you leave him?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We left him there with the community and as we went - it was now daylight, we asked for a kombi.  One person whom I remember at the rank in Moleleki Extension 2 - during those days it was difficult for taxis to operate, I still remember Bennet Mnyaka Ndaba who is also applying for amnesty and Ramambele.  Those I still remember very well.
	We started at comrade Manyala's place.  Before we went for the kombi at the rank we saw Sepo Baloi coming alone without Ntjebe together with whom sent to someone for help the previous night.  When we asked Sepo as to whether Bulelwa's corpse was still lying there, what was wrong?  It was indicated that they were shot, Ntjebe himself and the owner of the car.  
	And you were shot, what happened next?  Each one of them fled, I don't know where Ntjebe is.  Sepo is a person with him, I don't know whether it was mud or soil in his hair and we said: "There then is the corpse and we also have the second one, Blanko, in block A.  We are now rushing to comrade Manyala's together with the Red Cross and with the Red Cross rather.  
	When we arrived at Kumalo value where Manyala used to stay we saw four of these boys.  They may have been members of the ANC Youth League.  As we were getting out of the kombi they fled.  The one that I caught, if I still remember very well, was Miles or Millie Simelane, the other one was Izak Mgati.
	Vips was one of the four, he is the one who fled.  I cannot remember the other one, the third one.  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Izak Magati.  On arrival they did not want to listen what Manyala was saying, they just fled.  Miles, as I caught him, had a packet of cigarettes, a carton of cigarettes and a smaller piston, a brown one.  I don't know whether it's 2.2 or something else.

CHAIRPERSON: Miles, did he have a carton or a packet of cigarettes?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: He had a carton and a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?