Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: For the record it is Friday 18th June 1999.  We are continuing with the amnesty applications of N R Nkwenkwe and sixteen others.  Yes Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I have Mr Nqinana ready to take the oath.  His application appears at pages 58 to 64 Mr Chairman.

M C NQINANA: (sworn states)

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Nqinana, you are a member of the South African Police Services.  What rank are you holding?

M C NQINANA: I'm an inspector.

MR OBOSE: What rank were you holding during March 1994?

M C NQINANA: I was a Sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Where were you stationed in March 1994?

M C NQINANA: At Bisho Training Centre.

MR OBOSE: Is that what is also known as Bisho Police College?

M C NQINANA: Correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend a meeting which was held at the Bisho Police College Hall on the 22nd March 1994?

M C NQINANA: I was invited when the meeting was in process.

MR OBOSE: What do you mean invited, how did this reach you that there's a meeting?

M C NQINANA: We were called from our offices by the people who had attended the meeting.  As I was a training officer and there were people who came from the hall to call us to tell us to go to the hall.

MR OBOSE: Did they tell you why you were needed in the hall?

M C NQINANA: They said Commissioner Nqoya was going to address us at the hall and he wanted all the police, Ciskeian Police.  I am not sure as to what time was it but I think it was before or after 10 because it was in the morning, it was not in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: Did you then go to the meeting?

M C NQINANA: Yes.

MR OBOSE: What did you find happening at that stage of the meeting?

M C NQINANA: We were told at the meeting that Commissioner Nqoya was there and then he said all the Ciskeian Police should be called and then he would be coming back to address them.  All the people who had problems or grievances should forward those to him.  I remember Inspector Mfene.

MR OBOSE: Okay.  So what then happened, were any issues raised in the interim while you were waiting for Commissioner Ngoya?

M C NQINANA: Yes they were expecting input from the members therefore people were confused, they wanted to know what was going to happen, what was to be the future of the Ciskeian Police.  We had to write those down so that Commissioner Nqoya on coming back he would address the police on those issues.

MR OBOSE: Now when you got there in the morning were officers there?

M C NQINANA: Yes they were present and the others came with us because there were others who were called from their offices and Colonel Vusi from logistics and Brigadier Bongusa arrived with us at the hall.

MR OBOSE: So the impression you got was that everybody who was a policeman at Bisho Police College was called to the hall?

M C NQINANA: Yes, including the students.

MR OBOSE: Right just go on.  Did you remain in the hall throughout the day?

M C NQINANA: No I was in and out of the hall, I was not sitting there at the hall all the time.

MR OBOSE: Why would you leave the hall on those occasions that you did?

M C NQINANA: Most of the time we were being asked, we were working at the college and this thing was taking place at the college and sometimes we would go, we would be sent to go fetch water and give it to people and the other people who were hungry we had to go and get the food for those people so I was not in the hall most of the time, I was just in and out of the hall because we were the people who were used to do some of the things outside the hall.

MR OBOSE: Now as the day progressed, how did the mood of the meeting become?

M C NQINANA: The mood changed more specially when it was realised that the Commissioner was not coming back, the people panicked and when I came back I heard people saying that "Viva Cosatu" slogans like that, "Viva Popcru" and so on, so the mood had changed because the people were in panic as they were waiting for the Commissioner.  That is what I saw.

MR OBOSE: Was there any singing going on?

M C NQINANA: Yes they were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: Were any slogans shouted?

M C NQINANA: Yes they were saying down with Gqozo and the other slogans.

MR OBOSE: Did it seem like that the policemen who were in the hall were of this opinion or it was only a certain group that was singing or shouting slogans?

M C NQINANA: All the policemen in the hall were doing one thing, there was no specific group.

MR OBOSE: Did you yourself associate yourself with what was going on?

M C NQINANA: Yes that is correct, I also became part of what was happening.

MR OBOSE: You also sang and chanted slogans?

M C NQINANA: I couldn't shout the slogans because I would come in and join in the singing and I would go out again.  I didn't go to the front and shout the slogans.

MR OBOSE: Okay.  Now did at some stage soldiers join the police at the meeting?

M C NQINANA: Yes they arrived late, I cannot remember the time and I cannot say how many were there but they were driving a car but there was only one who went up to the podium.  There's a tent that was used.  They told us, they used to refer to us at Makaya, they said "Makaya, do not worry, we are with you" meaning that they were with us in this attempt of overthrowing Gqozo.  They were telling us that they were with us in this whole action therefore we shouldn't worry about anything, they would give us a back up.

MR OBOSE: Now were officers in the main brought to the meeting?

M C NQINANA: Yes they were brought to the meeting as a result of the instruction that came at the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Could you establish why they were brought or what reason was given for them to be brought?

M C NQINANA: I was not at the meeting all the time therefore I couldn't get everything that was said.  The reason for the officers to come is because they were regarded as the people who were supporting Gqozo's regime.  There was a feeling that they should also be there in that meeting.

MR OBOSE: Right, now when they got to the meeting were they asked questions, were they interrogated or the singing went on and they were ignored?

M C NQINANA: Yes they were being questioned when they arrived.  Some of them I did not see everything in that process because as I was saying I was not always in the hall, I would come and see a person perhaps asking a direct question to a specific person.  I cannot even say what kind of questions were being asked.

MR OBOSE: Did you get the news that Gqozo had stepped down at any stage that evening?

M C NQINANA: Yes I did get that information.

MR OBOSE: How?

M C NQINANA: It was late.  As they were making announcements there it was also mentioned that Gqozo had stepped down, he had surrendered.  I don't know who had brought that kind of information but we got that information from the people who were speaking there, different people were addressing the meeting, I heard such words being uttered.

MR OBOSE: And how did the mood become in the hall after that announcement had been made?

M C NQINANA: People were excited.  No one was assaulting anyone, no one was hurting anyone but people were just excited.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that at some stage police armed themselves with R5's and R1 rifles?

M C NQINANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Do you recall the circumstances surrounding this?

M C NQINANA: It was realised that SAP was to go and take over the police college or to try to prevent their action and most of the police did not have firearms because for their own safety they had to be armed and do some guard duties around the premises.  That is how they armed themselves.

MR OBOSE: Did you fetch any officer?

M C NQINANA: Yes, it was Captain Sawuti.

MR OBOSE: Why was he fetched?