Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Can it be interpreted to him, please.  Just explain to the witness how he could use this microphone please.
INTERPRETER EXPLAINS USE OF MICROPHONE TO APPLICANT

MR SIGUDU: Yes, thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.   Mr Sigudu, just getting back to the question of Mr Wiseman.   Do you know if he held any specific or special position within the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: I would not say I have knowledge to that effect but he was present during meetings and I assumed that he is one of us.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, did you in any way yourself stand to benefit anything from committing this particular crime?

MR SIGUDU: No, I did not intend to gain anything.   This was intended for the IFP, not for any personal gain.  I wanted to strengthen my organisation.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, the victim of this incident, did you know her or have anything particular against the victim?

MR SIGUDU: It is precisely for this reason that I have come before this Commission.  My profuse apologies for the injuring of these people or this person.

MR CLAASSEN: Are you presently still a member of the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sigudu, just in conclusion, was there anything else you could have done to further the cause as you say, of the IFP, why was what occurred on that specific day, why was it necessary?

MR SIGUDU: At the time, during those years, it was not easy to do something else in strengthening the organisation, so that the one person who led us to that, saw it as well as we did, fit to do as we did to strengthen our position.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions for this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.   Mr Sigudu, you have testified that you are a follower of the IFP, were you also a member of the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did you have a membership card?

MR SIGUDU: I took receipt of the card many years ago whilst I was still at home, I don't have the card as of this moment.

MS THABETE: Before you committed the robbery in question, were there any other activities that you were involved in as a member of the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: The role that I played was that, as a hostel inmate, I had to partake in the protection of the hostel community in case we were attacked.

MS THABETE: And how did you used to protect the community that you were staying with?

MR SIGUDU: It is known that there was a conflict between the IFP and the ANC and we sometimes suffered attacks and myself as a hostel inmate, had to fight under those circumstances.

MS THABETE: Coming back to the incident in question, on page 5 of your statement, you mention the four of you that is, Sampson Manqele, Thulani Mvelase, Mzolo and yourself, who planned, or to embark on a robbery of the deceased.  How did it come about that the four of you planned to rob?

MR SIGUDU: It was for the reason that we had to get money, for example if we had lost some of our supporters during violence or going to rallies, we had to have money.

MS THABETE: Maybe you did not understand my question properly, my question is how did it come about that the four of you specifically decided to rob?   Were you chosen by the organisation or did you just decide by yourselves that you that you want to rob?

MR SIGUDU: We did not take that decision, Wiseman took that decision.  He was part of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You see in your statement, you say there that
"we decided to embark on a robbery"
That is why you are being asked now.  Who was the author of this plan, was it an organisational decision or a decision of the four of you only?

MR SIGUDU: Wiseman is the one person, Wiseman Kanyele, came up with this idea.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Sigudu, on page 10 Manqele seems to say that they received no instructions from anybody to carry out this, but you say you got this from Wiseman, Wiseman Mvelase.  On page 10, it says "we" and then
"I did not receive any instructions from anybody"
...  and so on.  What do you say to that?

MR SIGUDU: I think he is referring to the higher echelon of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that it was IFP policy to conduct itself like this?

MR SIGUDU: It is for this reason that I am before this Commission because I know that it is not the policy of the IFP, I actually broke the policies of the IFP.  The IFP should forgive me and the family of the deceased should forgive me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you then correctly, there is no issue or question of instructions from higher up because that was not the policy of the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, I would say that is correct.   It is precisely the reason why I am before this Commission to apologise to the IFP as well because this is not the policy of the IFP.  I would like to apologise to the deceased as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we come back to the question that Dr Tsotsi asked, have you got any comment on the application of Sampson?  He is likely to come tell us when he testifies that what you people did was not the result of any instructions from anybody.

MR SIGUDU: As far as I know, we were following instructions because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: From who?

MR SIGUDU: Wiseman.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what we need to know.  I am not trying to trap you or catch you out here.  You say that the IFP did not have a policy of robbing and murdering people, where would Wiseman then have got the authority to give you the instruction to go shoot these people and get the money?

MR SIGUDU: I would say that is, or should I say that followed his perception of the situation, that's all I can say.

CHAIRPERSON: Look you must try to help us, you've made an application for amnesty.  We still don't know for what yet.  You must help us understand your application, do you understand? ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: Part of your case is that you received instructions to embark upon this crime or crimes, then you say that Wiseman is the person who gave these instructions.  You also tell us that the IFP did not have a policy which would justify your actions, hence we must try to find out then on what basis could you have accepted that Wiseman was giving you a proper instruction, an organisational instruction.  That's all we are trying to find out?  And we are not trying to be difficult, we just need to understand it.

MR SIGUDU: Yes, I can answer that.   Yes, I am saying this was not the policy of the IFP, that is why I decided to come before the Commission to apologise to the IFP and the entire South African population, but then the situation at the time was such that such things as we did were happening.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you able to act on behalf of an organisation in a manner which would not be condoned by that very organisation?

MR SIGUDU: I indicated that we were trying to get some money to assist in the event of one of us dying or attending rallies. I was doing all of this following the circumstances that prevailed.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow you.  At the end of your statement you say that you intended giving all this money to the IFP, do you recall that?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you going to explain to the IFP when you handed them the money, where you got it from and how you got it?

MR SIGUDU: Wiseman was the one responsible for the explanation because our intention was to hand the money over to him.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Sigudu, exactly what was your plan with regard to the robbery?

MR SIGUDU: Our plan was to assist our organisation financially in the purchasing of firearms.

MS THABETE: Maybe I didn't put my question clearly.  What I am asking is, with regard to the robbery of Miss Govender, exactly what did you plan, how did you plan to rob her?