Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The purpose was to create the impression among them that we arrested these people in order to interrogate them and they were left with this impression.

CHAIRPERSON: But you could still have created that impression even if they were not present during the interrogation - even if they were sitting outside the house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Given the fact that they would have been useful with regard to the kind of information you would have been wanting from the deceased, is it not more likely that the Askaris would in fact actively take part in the interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That might be so but in that case it did not happen, I did the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

ADV LAMEY: You knew that among these Vlakplaas members were Askaris and as you know Askaris were former ANC members and also MK members, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lamey, I interrupted your cross-examination earlier on -  I think we should get a little bit direct to certain points and no really take a long way about it to get to them because I think issues get clouded if we don't do that.

ADV LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	The Askaris had a special background knowledge and a dimension which would have been handy to include them in the interrogation so that information which could possibly come forward could be verified by them.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct, but can I just explain?  Let's just take an example that if one of the deceased had named an MK member then they could possibly have assisted us in saying that they could have seen that person at a certain camp.  In that regard it could have been so or for the identification of person that we did not know about.

ADV LAMEY: These specific three people, had they been detained previously and questioned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I only know about Mr Hashe.

ADV LAMEY: Do you know whether he was assaulted during any previous detention?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not that I have any knowledge of.

ADV LAMEY: Were you present during the previous interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, on the occasion I did question him.

ADV LAMEY: Was it your impression that these persons were strong leaders, fearless of the security police as Major du Plessis testified?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

ADV LAMEY: If you were interested in this information, how did you think did these persons would tell you or give you this information if they did not fear the security police?  (transcriber's own translation)

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: During the interrogation of the deceased I confronted them directly with facts at my disposal and they replied to my questions.

ADV LAMEY: If they were so fearless, how did it occur that they said they were prepared to become informants?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I saw this in view of the fact that they were all three detained in the garage together and I thought that it was a strategy from their side and that is why I did not believe them.

ADV LAMEY: How did the aspect regarding the AK47 come to light?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because I had the information that Mr Hashe had been in Lesotho for a period of time - I questioned him in this regard and he mentioned it to me that an AK47 was hidden in his sister's house, I did not believe him because I thought that it was a code he wanted to send through to his family to give the impression of where he was at that moment.

ADV LAMEY: Did you know at that stage that - immediately after he had given the information regarding the AK47, that is was not correct information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did not know that.

ADV LAMEY: Are you saying that you did not know that it was correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did not believe him.

ADV LAMEY: You did not believe him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV LAMEY: I want to put it to you that the two applicants whom I represent will testify that Mr Hashe was assaulted that evening after he arrived at that old farmhouse.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny this most strongly.

ADV LAMEY: And it is then that he spoke about the AK47.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's not correct.

ADV LAMEY: And that Mr Godolozi was also questioned that evening and also interrogated by means of beating him and kicking him.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny this most strongly, I did question him that evening.

ADV LAMEY: If I say that is their testimony, I just want to say that Mr Koole doesn't know about Godolozi but Mr Mogoai will say that it was Godolozi.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I question or interrogated all three the deceased that evening.

ADV LAMEY: The point is that it is their testimony that they were assaulted, that you beat and kicked them.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny this.

ADV LAMEY: And this assault or interrogation did not take very long because it was late and they had already gone to bed or that in their presence it did not take very long because they went to bed.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I've already said, I questioned them for approximately three to four hours and I take it for granted that they did go to bed, I'm not sure.

ADV LAMEY: Did you think that the information that these people had, that they would give it to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They did not give us any new information.

ADV LAMEY: No, the question is: "Did you think before this that they would give any information to you - the information that you were looking for"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV LAMEY: And you testified that you arrived there at approximately 11 or 12 o'clock that evening and why then did the interrogation take so long - until the early morning hours?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I interrogated them and this is what I can remember as the events occurred that evening.

ADV LAMEY: If you knew that these persons were not going to give you the information, surely then you must have had a reason to persuade these people to give you this information by means of assaulting them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did not assault them.

CHAIRPERSON: The gist of the previous question as to why it lasted so long was, it these people were co-operative during the interrogation to give the information without pressure and so on and so forth, why did the interrogation have to take so long?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I interviewed or interrogated each one of the deceased and I confronted them with the facts at my disposal and I accepted that after three hours of questioning - and secondly we had to create the impression amongst the Askaris and the members of Vlakplaas that we were interrogating these people.

CHAIRPERSON: When you stopped the interrogation, where you satisfied with the information that you got from them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In my opinion they gave us no new information.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you satisfied that they had given as much information as they were possessed of?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They denied some of it and they confirmed some of the questions that I put to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you satisfied that they had given you all the information that they were possessed of and which you wanted from them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't believe that they gave us all the information.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason why subsequently you interrogated them again?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Are you referring to the morning of the 9th?

CHAIRPERSON: That is correct, in the morning.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did they give you the information to your satisfaction, in other words did you become satisfied that they had given all such information as they might know of which you wanted of them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, they did not satisfy me, we did not obtain any new information - they covered a very wide spectrum.