Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I just explain briefly the reason why this, it was simply that there was no proper index and album of photographs could be found from either the police investigation or the court record, so we're doing our best to maybe paint as full a picture as possible, and I was unable to find anyone who could, with any clarity, give me a - make any sense of these photographs, but it seems to be a general pointing out.   Photograph 7 looks like he's pointing to a, it looks like a R10,00 note, a green note, under a stone.   Can you remember that?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: It looks like R10,00 that may have fallen from that truck.

MR PRIOR: Do you remember that there was money, or a R10,00 note, lying there, or don't you remember, independently of the photograph?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: I do remember something relating to money that had fallen down.

MR PRIOR: All right.   Photograph 8, you had already indicated that documents had been lying there.   It looks like documents, are those documents letters or whatever, can you remember that, photograph 8?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Yes, I remember.

MR PRIOR: Photograph 9 is a, it also looks like an item of clothing near a stormwater pipe.   Can you recall that, and are you able to identify that piece of clothing?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I do not remember that place, sir.

MR PRIOR: As also photograph 10?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Even 10 I do not remember anything about, sir.

MR PRIOR: But is it correct that Mr Tuta was pointing out certain places at that spot where Mr Makase had indicated to you earlier on that day?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Mr Tuta may have been pointing out these places, moving with the photographer.

MR PRIOR: Do I understand from that that you never went, you weren't walking with the photographer when these were taken, but you were in the general area at the time that photographs were taken?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Correct, I did not move around with the photographer.

MR PRIOR: I need to put this to you, I believe at the last, or I remember at the last hearing in April, there were allegations from the applicants while you were sitting in the audience that you were one of the policemen who assaulted them, in fact you were asked to stand up.   Do you wish to comment, you have now an opportunity to comment on those allegations?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No sir, I cannot comment on that.

MR PRIOR: Well did you assault these people, after they had been arrested and at the spot where they were, obviously there was pointing out done?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I did not assault them.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them being assaulted?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I did not see them being assaulted.

MS GCABASHE: Just to finish off, well for me, this point, but if you look at C2, photograph 1, and you look at Mr Tuta's face, it would appear to me that he had been assaulted?
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MPHAMELO PANGELE: A very, very short time.

MS GCABASHE: Roughly five minutes, one hour, just an indication?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: It could be one hour, about.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYA: At the time that the helicopter arrived there with Zama Tuta, were there some local people there at that point or at that spot, waiting?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, there were none, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYA: You cannot recall seeing any local people there at that spot, and their attitude towards Mr Tuta at the time he arrived there?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I do not remember well, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Pangele, at what time did you arrive at the spot where the body of Done Meyer was discovered?   Can you still remember the time, what time did you arrive?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: It was afternoon, I do not remember the time accurately.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Can't you say whether it was three or four o'clock or five o'clock?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: It may have been about those times.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Am I correct to say that you did not move from that spot until the other policemen arrived with the suspects?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Correct, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Did you see them on their arrival?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: I saw them, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Did you see the condition of Mr Tuta?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: I saw it, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYA: And you could see that he has been assaulted?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I did not see him as if he had been assaulted, but I could see that he had a torn overalls.

MR MBANDAZAYA: You did not see that his eye was swollen and almost the right side of his face was swollen, almost closed, the other eye?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I did not notice such a thing, sir.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Is it your evidence that, here in this committee, that what was said by Mr Tuta in the last hearing, that you assaulted him severely, is not true?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No sir, it's not true that I assaulted him.

MR MBANDAZAYA: If you had done that, would you have been in a position to tell the committee that you had done that?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Yes, I would have told the committee.

MR SANDI: Yes, but Mr Pangele, sorry for the interruption, Mr Mbandazaya, I thought your attitude was to make no comment at all about the allegation of assault until Mr Prior asked you to admit or deny the allegation?

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is, Mr Prior, you invited him to comment on it?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, to comment on the allegation that was made in public... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRIOR: ...at the last hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and (indistinct) he said he couldn't make any comment.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman, or is it still on the floor?   Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Now in your statement you said that at around half past one on the day in question, you received a message on the radio control, you said it was around half past one.   If it was around half past one, can you estimate to the committee at what time did you arrive at that spot after you have received it at half past one, the message, that there is this incident that took place?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: I cannot estimate, but what happened that afternoon, me hearing about the whole matter and me getting to the body, I did not see the time.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Oh.   No, I agree with you, you received the message at half past one, but what I'm trying to get at is what, after you have received the message at half past one, how long did it take you to arrive at the spot where the body was discovered?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: I cannot estimate how much time I took to get to the body.

MR MBANDAZAYA: You are also not in a position to estimate the distance you travelled, how long the distance was when you received the message that there's this incident that took place, distance to that spot where the body was discovered?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I cannot estimate.

MR MBANDAZAYA: But you are able to estimate that the distance from the brickyard to where the truck is was 200 metres?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: Yes, I can.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Thank you, Your Worship, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYA

MS GCABASHE: The questions I have really relate to the village where the incident occurred.   I don't know if you would be able to assist me with just a few details there.   It's not evidence that you have given.   Can I continue?   Do you know the village at all, where the incident occurred?

MPHAMELO PANGELE: No, I do not know the place where the incident took place.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you, then you will not be able to assist me.   Thank you, no other questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, we also thank Mr Pangele for travelling from Umtata to attend.
WITNESS EXCUSED