Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

GEORGE BIZOS: But there is /2, who was the other person that you were supposed to monitor in this context?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Frank Chikane was the name that was given to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you explain, if you were not seconded to do this, why the diary should mention that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot comment on that.

MR LAX: Just for easy reference, Mr Bizos, could you just give us the page reference of the diary or the date or whatever, it just helps us go back to it later.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) May, Mr Chairman, the bottom left-hand corner.
	Is the number 2 there Frank Chikane or do you not know?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't know, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well who were the two people that you were seconded to?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Bruce White and Frank Chikane.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, might I give you a reference in relation to a disputed matter on the record?  The evidence of Mr Verster at page 389 of the record, cross-examined by Mr Hockey
"So you are saying that you have no knowledge of this project"?
		"MR VERSTER:   No, if I remember correctly I read it in the documentation and I imagine years ago I read it in the newspapers, but it is not a project that was officially authorised by me, there could be an interpretation on regional level, but the Regional Manager can answer that question."

CHAIRPERSON: Was that relating to Rosscam?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) I've shown this passage to my learned friend Mr Wessels, he has a recollection that in cross-examination by another counsel ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Eck.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) be that as it may ...(indistinct - no microphone).  Apparently this goes off for some reason or other.  Will you please switch off when I am speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think the problem's not so much with that one, it seems to come from when these ones are put on it goes off.

GEORGE BIZOS: Alright, we'll be careful then.
	Can you give us a date for Rosscam's car please, a month will do.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If I remember correctly it was during September.

GEORGE BIZOS: Before or after your supposed suspension?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: After.

GEORGE BIZOS: After.  How long after the Early Learning Centre?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Possibly two weeks.

GEORGE BIZOS: As far as Hamutenya is concerned, you say that it was due to incorrect identification and did you say that this was Staal Burger's project?  Staal Burger denies this.  Have you any comment to make?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I do not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you stand by your statement that it was Burger who gave you ...

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: These were names that were mentioned and this is an assumption that I made.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say that Hamutenya was Burger's project, where did you get that from?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is maybe during a co-ordinating session that the name was mentioned, I cannot say today.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that in speaking about Hamo, H-a-m-o T-e-n-t-j-a, was an attempt to spell Hamutenya?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It's possibly so, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Ja, it's the only thing that makes sense.  Very well.  Why was there panic when Aitchison was arrested?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because of the fact that he was connected to our cell.  That was my interpretation.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) chief about it, perhaps we will just argue about it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: But do you agree that generally speaking, people panic when there is a danger of them being exposed for the wrongs that they've done?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Maybe just expose.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... he was merely to monitor, there was nothing to really worry about, was there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think there was.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were documents destroyed in relation to Aitchison and Lubowski?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With specific reference to the book, yes we attempted to get hold of the book at the Royal Ascot Hotel.  If it was destroyed afterwards I cannot say with certainty.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the purpose of it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a traceable book with the connection to Mr Maree.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well that's consistent with the CCB wanting to put distance between itself and Aitchison.

MR LAX: Just repeat your question, the Interpreter was still translating what you were saying ...(indistinct - no microphone)

GEORGE BIZOS: The whole purpose of it was to put distance between you, the CCB, and Aitchison.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anybody ever suggest that defeating the ends of justice is a serious crime for which you can go to prison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have already told you what my viewpoint was concerning prison sentence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Nobody worried about such niceties.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because we would not go.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now after the killing of Webster - this is the last issue, Mr Chairman, with which I'm going to deal.
	After the killing of Webster, was there an enquiry as to what role, if any, the CCB had played?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: From where, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Verster, the investigating officer, one or other of the Generals.

CHAIRPERSON: And internal enquiry.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There was, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well tell us who approached you and what did they say to you and what did you say to them.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, during a co-ordinating session enquiries were made concerning Dr Webster, it was mentioned that the request came from Joe Verster.  At a certain stage myself and Mr van Zyl informally discussed this.  That was approximately the 2nd of May, and that is in chief what I can recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well was there anything said about why Verster was interested in this one?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, he wanted to find out if Region 6 was involved in it, which was a concern to me because based on what happened he forced me to keep quiet.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry I didn't hear, you say that - did you mention the word "sukses"

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did you say?  I'm sorry I didn't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Find out if Region 6 was involved.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  What would have made him think that Region 6 might have been involved?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, that was - I did not know that either, it forced me to keep quiet because of the fact that Mr Verster wanted to distance himself completely from a project that he approved of, according to my knowledge.

GEORGE BIZOS: The message to you was that Verster was going to deny what you knew he had done?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's how I interpreted it.

GEORGE BIZOS: What he had authorised.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: He must have suspected that one or other person in Region 6 might have helped Barnard.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I wouldn't say so Sir, no I don't know.

MR LAX: What do you mean you don't know?  You knew from your discussions with Barnard that he'd authorised it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I'm sorry, could you just repeat.

MR LAX: You knew from your discussions with Barnard that he had authorised it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right.

MR LAX: So on the one hand you know he's authorised it, on the other hand you know he's wanting to give the impression that he doesn't know what is going on.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is exactly so.

MR LAX: So the thrust of the question was, why should that happen?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: To distance himself from the project.  I do not know, that was just as strange to me, it was unbelievable.

MR LAX: Precisely.  Why should he be asking his own operatives, some of whom would understand that this thing happened inside in Gauteng, a strong possibility Region 6 is involved?