Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: On the issue of the Task Force, I explained already that these people were speaking Zulu, they did not understand Sotho and I told them at some instances I recall I had to make them rub off what I told them and I said:  "No listen, you have to write this one."  I told them that I joined AZANYU.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm just speaking of your application form now, I'm just speaking of your application form.  Let Mr Mbandazayo show you what I'm talking about.  You see 7 (a) it is written Task Force and something else, on towards the end, right-hand side has been rubbed off, you see that?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, I'm aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you want to convey by Task Force?  That's what I'm asking you.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I wanted to explain my shift from the Youth Organisation into the much bigger organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow.  Your shift from?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I can't hear you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying here they asked you with regard to the organisation and you say, you have written here Task Force, I want to know from you, what is it that you wanted to convey by the use of the word Task Force?  They asked you the organisation in which you belonged.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, Sir, I'm explaining that I wanted to tell you how did it happen that I moved from the Youth Organisation into the Task Force.  They did not ask me anything, they only asked me as to the Force, where were you in the Force and then I explained to them.

CHAIRPERSON: You are repeating it again Sir.  7(b), you repeated that.  They asked you, State the capacity in which you served in the organisation and then again you wrote Task Force.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They asked you, were you an officer or what were you?  You say here:  "I was a Task Force."

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what is the difference, because you wanted to tell them that you were in this organisation and you moved from that organisation to the next one.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No, I wanted to give them full details, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you're saying the organisation that you belonged to was AZANYU?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, I was in AZANYU and I was recruited into the Task Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tuis, what would be the difference then if I were to say to you:  "I am a member of the Pan Africanist Congress" and they ask me the next question:  "What was your position in there?" and then I respond by saying I was the member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army, is there a difference there?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No there wouldn't be a difference.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it's one organisation?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The others are political leaders and the others are the fighters?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what I want you to explain for me is, you say you wanted to give them the full details but you only wrote Task Force.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No, they did not want to know anything about other organisations, they only asked me about this Task Force and I gave them this Task Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, in view of the fact that you have already asked, I was going to come to that, can I follow where you have left, because I was going to ask him about organisation and all such things.

CHAIRPERSON: I said that because you apparently owe me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So that I can also follow it up Chairperson, I wanted to finish the statement, but in view of the fact that you have started with this point.  You indicated to the Chairperson that you joined the organisation AZANYU in 1990.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell the Committee, when you were in prison you were visited by Dlogodlo, what sentence were you serving?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: It was 2 years sentence, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When were you sentenced?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I was sentenced in October of 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What you were - did the sentence you were serving had anything to do with politics, that is the offence you committed before you were sentenced, had anything to do with politics?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No, it was not connected to politics.  I ended up in there because I was inquisitive.  The car that I was found in was hijacked by my friends and I met them in town and I got in the car and we went for a nice time, not aware that this was a stolen car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, thank you, I just wondered whether it has to do ...  At that time when you were arrested for this offence, did you know Dlogodlo before that?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I did not know him Sir.  I first knew him in 1993 on the 10th of January, the 10th or the 16th of January.  He arrived with Pitso to me and Tabiso, I was at work at Tempe, that's when I first knew him.  He came to ask me whether ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you were in prison at that time, am I correct?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, I was a prisoner at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now the place in which they visited you, were you not at work and you were guarded there, am I correct?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I was at work, I was guarded, that's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you allowed visitors at that time?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I was not allowed to have visitors, but the way they arrived, they were driving in a private car and I requested the person who was guarding me, I said to him:  "There's my brother, can I please have a word with him?" And he allowed me.  I got into the car, I spoke to him and he asked me when was my release.  I told him when I was going to be released and he told me not to go anywhere, they will arrive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And Dlogodlo did not know you and you did not know him?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: That is correct.  Pitso introduced me to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, can I then go back to the statement?  Now, I would like to summarise the statement.  So is it correct that Dlogodlo visited you whilst you were still in custody and told you that you should not go anywhere on the 3rd, you mentioned the 3rd of February, am I correct?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.  I was not in prison when he came to me.  He did not go to the prison, he came with Pitso and Tabiso, I was at work at Tempe.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, we understand that but you were still in custody at that time, whether you were not inside the building or the prison walls, but you were still in custody, that's what I'm trying to say.  Now can you tell the Committee did you mention the name - who's William Verulam Nkosana?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: He's a member of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Lebohang May?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: He's a member of APLA.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did they know about this operation?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you meet them before this operation?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: May and Tabiso trained around the 1990's and taught me how to handle the firearm, that was in January.  He was together with Tabiso when he taught me how to handle a firearm.  He did not know about the attack, the persons who knew about the attack were Tabiso and Dlogodlo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let's go to paragraph 2.4.  Now is it correct that on the 3rd of February Dlogodlo came with Tabiso, Makwala, Pitso and Donald Mologwai to you?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: At home, yes and I was release, I was at home, they arrived at home, yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And they were driving a private car?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: They took you to Bloemfontein at 1910 Bar, is it correct?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You sat outside in a car outside a parking - on a parking?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: We were inside a car parked at 1910 Bar.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that you swear Dlogodlo gave you instruction to kill the whites in Free State, take the money if it is enough, bring guns and weapons?