Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KADES: Please.

BISHOP STOREY: I think the misunderstanding lies in the language of my notes.  The discussion with Dr Motlana, as I recall, was a telephone discussion.  The fact that I set about convening a meeting does not, necessarily, imply that the meeting took place then.  I think the meeting that I set about trying to put together, in fact, is the meeting referred to on Monday the 30th, but what I did do, and I think this is a slight revision of my answer to your question earlier, I spoke with Dr Motlana on the phone and I, I'm sure, initiated that phone call, and I wanted to know from him what kind of possible, even, whether there was anything rational, at all, about this kind of allegation that had been made in the Sunday Times, and that's when he used the words that I've written there ... (intervention).

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: ... about such evidence not being possible.

MR KADES: And when you talk of convening a meeting with key community leaders, is it correct to assume that the key community leaders you speak of were the members of the Crisis Committee who were concerned in this matter and with whom you had had dealings throughout this period?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, as I indicated, it is also very difficult to get a consistent group of people together, but the people are mentioned on Monday the 30th, there is Dan and M, that's Dan Masoge, Nat Ramagopa, Stewart Ngwenya, and somebody whose surname I didn't and can't remember, and they were not the Crisis Committee, in fact.  As you will see, something of the tenure of the discussion in that meeting was impatience with the Crisis Committee.

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: So, you actually had two groups of people. You had the Crisis Committee, who had been entrusted with handling this crisis, but you also had other community leaders who ... (intervention).

MR KADES: (...Indistinct).

BISHOP STOREY: ... vacillated sometimes in terms of the degree to which they believed the Crisis Committee was doing its job.

MR KADES: Yes, who had an agenda maybe different to that of what the Crisis Committee might have been perceived to have at the time?

BISHOP STOREY: I don't know what is implied by that.

MR KADES: I'm not implying anything ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Thank you.

MR KADES: ... but presumably ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Then I will not respond.

MR KADES: ... presumably members of the Crisis Committee will tell us why they were not available.  These people that you mention here, Dan M, Nat R, Stewart Ngwenya and Elias, are those people whom you regarded as ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Community ... (intervention).

MR KADES: ... as key community leaders ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I think ... (intervention).

MR KADES: ... at the time?

BISHOP STOREY: I think the right word to use is underground community leaders.

MR KADES: Did you ever have any discussions with any members of the Crisis Committee, and, please, if you did, will you name them, concerning the murder of Dr Asvat and their investigations into that murder?

BISHOP STOREY: I don't think so.  I don't think so.  I've no independent recollection of that.

MR KADES: And you can't recall any discussions with any of them that you linked to the death of Dr Asvat, you yourself or they?

BISHOP STOREY: I think all I can say is that, obviously, first the murder and then the accusations carried in the newspaper were a great shock, and so I've no doubt that we did talk about it, that it was raised, that it was talked about, but I can't at any point recall that, or let me put it this way:  if the Crisis Committee decided that that now fell within the ambit of their responsibilities, they didn't necessarily share that with me.

MR KADES: But not even in general discussions concerning the events of that period, do you recall anything?

BISHOP STOREY: I don't recall anything of significance, but I'm quite sure we must have, it must have come up in conversation. You could not avoid it.

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: But I don't know what was said.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to find out how much more, you know, I'm going to be sticking to time, have you? Right.

MR KADES: The statement of the 16th of February 1989, the Mass Democratic Press Conference which you have referred to.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, sir.

MR KADES: Did you ever receive or find any information relating to the reason for the making of that statement, the reasons behind that press conference, did any member of the Crisis Committee ever discuss that with you, tell you what their findings were ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR KADES: ... that led to the statement?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I welcomed the statement. I believed it was principled, that it was the least that could happen, given the kind of thing that was coming out day after day and given what we had been wrestling with, and I've already indicated that I believe it was one of those few moments when in politics principle rises above expediency and courage above cowardice, but I never discussed with anybody,  neither did anybody ask me or consult with me prior to the issuing of that statement.  It took place at the Central Methodist Mission and I was there for part of it, I remember.

MR KADES: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any other?  Yes.

MR KUNY: Chairperson, I just have one ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Who am I speaking to, sir?

MR KUNY: It is Mr Kuny representing Ms Falati.  I just have, there is just one issue that I would like to clarify with you.  On page 12 of your memorandum you refer to the fact that you go home and view a video.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: And you then proceed to describe in some detail what appears to be what Mrs Mandela had said on that video.  Is that correct?  I wonder if you could just perhaps ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... have a look at page 12 ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... at the top, the first paragraph.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: And it starts, "In the video Mrs Mandela ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... claims.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: And then about six or seven lines down there appears to be, what appears to be a quote,
"The tragedy is the issue of the Reverend Paul Verryn that there ... (intervention)

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: "... is a medical problem".

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: You actually gave evidence about that.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: Could you just tell the Commission, is this a precis or a recounting of what you viewed in that video?

BISHOP STOREY: I think it is a verbatim, you know, I've put it in quotes, and I think it is verbatim what Mrs Mandela, it's not everything she said at all but it seemed to me to be the meat and the heart of what was particularly of concern to me, which was the references to Paul Verryn and the Church and cover-ups and things like that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I'm sorry to interrupt.  Mr Kuny has got a transcript of the TV interview in his file.

BISHOP STOREY: Well, then, a comparison can be made and if I've been inaccurate at all you will discover that, sir.

MR KUNY: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, if I could perhaps just finish the question and establish, does that go to the end of the paragraph, "Church....", the last sentence, "Church in a problem and their only interest is covering their image"?