Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions you would like to put Ma'am?

MS PRETORIUS: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Mkhize, you indicated in your early part of your cross-examination when you were being questioned by Ms Tanzer, that you had received threats from some of the residents.  Do you remember saying that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Who gave you those threats, which residents?

MR MKHIZE: I already mentioned that those threats were from the residents of the hostel.

MR LAX: I am asking you which residents threatened you?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you feared that you could be attacked by the residents of kwaMadala, what do you mean?

MR MKHIZE: I mean that when they placed these complaints that they were being attacked and killed by people from Boipatong, they actually uttered that if I could not protect them, or if I could not take a decision about what to do, they would actually take the matter into their own hands.
	Even though they did not give a direct threat, but that is what I thought.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any of the residents of the hostel directly threaten you?

MR MKHIZE: No.  But the residents in general were complaining that they were being killed and I was not taking any action.

MR LAX: You said that you were elected to this position as head of the AmaButho, why didn't you just resign if you didn't want to go on with this attack?

MR MKHIZE: It did occur to me, but I thought that would make no difference because the situation was such that it had already gone too far.

MR LAX: But you see, you have already told us that it wasn't IFP policy to do this sort of thing, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: You also told us that Mtwana didn't want you to do this sort of thing, he wanted you to wait.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: You told us you didn't want this attack to happen yourself?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So why did you have anything to do with it, why didn't you just resign and leave it?  You could have said let them do it if they want to do it, I don't want to be any part of this.

MR MKHIZE: It was because of the fear and confusion I felt at that time, because people were indeed dying.

MR LAX: So you were on the one hand, slightly in favour of this attack as well, is this what you are saying?  You said there was confusion.
	Was the confusion in your own mind?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is what I mean.

MR LAX: Who gave the order to return back to the hostel once you had got to Slovo Park and you had assembled there?

MR MKHIZE: I gave that order and Mr Qunchu as well.

MR LAX: So you met Qunchu at Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So his group and your group had obviously joined up by that time?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we had joined up at the time.

MR LAX: And then you jointly left the area back to kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And did you follow a different path on your way out of the township or did you follow the same path?

MR MKHIZE: We took a different route.  We actually took a route that was actually towards the township.

MR LAX: Please explain what you mean by that, towards the township?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually going up towards the hostel.  When we went to the township, we took an easterly route, but when we returned, we actually took a route in the opposite direction.

MR LAX: The question was did you take a different route on your way back through the township, not a different direction?

MR MKHIZE: It was a different route.

MR LAX: Are you able to describe that route to us at all?  Do you remember any of the roads that you went through?  Did you come out at a different place, can you describe that place, that is what we are trying to understand?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.  It was a road that actually went up.

MR LAX: When you came out of Boipatong, did you come out near the factories, near the firms?

MR MKHIZE: On the inside of the township, but it was near the firms.

MR LAX: When you went in, you went in much more on the other side, closer towards what your lawyer referred to as the highway?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat that.

MR LAX: When you went in, you went in on the other side, much more of a westerly side, westerly part of the township?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.    Mr Mkhize, in your capacity as the Commander or leader of AmaButho, did you have power or authority to take such a decision to attack the residents, or were you supposed to get approval from any person above you?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I did have the authority.

MR SIBANYONI: After you converged at Slovo Park and you started moving back towards the hostel, were there any attacks on the residents of Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I did not hear, please repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you broke up into two groups and you met at Slovo Park, and then thereafter you started going back to the hostel.  My question is, were there any attacks on the residents inside Boipatong, not in Slovo Park, inside Boipatong when you were moving back?

MR MKHIZE: No, there were no further attacks on Boipatong.

MR SIBANYONI: Was Prince Vanana Zulu aware of the pressure which was mounting for the people to attack, was he aware that you were under pressure to make such a decision?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I had informed him before, but he was not present on this particular day.
	He requested me to inform the people to hold on so that he could communicate with leaders from Boipatong.  On the day of the attack, the Prince was not present.

MR SIBANYONI: You said a decision to attack, was taken some time before the actual attack.  Was Mr Zulu aware that the attack was now going to take place?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not aware.  He was in fact not in favour of carrying out such an attack.

MR SIBANYONI: So when he left to Natal, was the decision already taken or it was not yet taken?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it had been taken already.  But it had not been decided exactly when the date would be.
	He was not aware that such a decision had been taken, because he did not approve of it.

MR SIBANYONI: We are aware that this attack took place at night, but is it possible for you to give a rough estimation of the number of the people who participated in this attack, a rough estimation?

MR MKHIZE: It would not be easy to estimate the number, but there were many people who were there, because everyone who was in the hostel, actually went out on the attack.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, you said you saw the caspir travelling on the road.  Was it at such a distance that the people in the caspir would easily identify you, easily see the group, your group of people coming from Boipatong?  Was it at such a distance?

MR MKHIZE: It was a bit far so it was possible that they could have seen us, or maybe they could have not, I do not know.

MR SIBANYONI: When you left, I am sorry Mr Chairperson, two more questions, when you left the hostel, where were the security which were supposed to be at the gate?

MR MKHIZE: They were not at the gate, I did not see them.

MR SIBANYONI: And when you returned?

MR MKHIZE: No, they were not present.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chair, just one question that arose out of my colleague's question.  Did Vanana Zulu ever speak to you after the attack, on his return from kwaZulu and say to you what is going on, why did you do this thing, why did you just go ahead, you knew I didn't want this to happen?  Did he ever question you about it?