Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

MR PRIOR: And you fired shots in their direction?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you aiming at anyone in particular?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: These people, the whites were apart from the African ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: You weren't shooting at the black man, you were shooting at the other two?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was shooting at them.

MR PRIOR: Were you shooting out of the hip, or not aiming in particular at any specific point, or just shooting in their general direction - I'm just trying to establish that - as you were moving forward?  Or did you stop, take aim and fire in their direction?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't understand your question.

MR PRIOR: From what I understand, as you were moving forward, you changed your magazine, people were running away from the car that had come to a standstill.  Did you continue -you said the black man was apart from the two white people, and you shot in their direction.  Did you simply take aim at them as they were running, or did you just fire in their general direction, without particularly aiming at anyone specifically?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Let me put it this way.  It's not that I was aiming, because I could not aim at that position, I was changing a position.  I was either in a hip or shoulder position.  I was shooting as I was moving.

MR PRIOR: Then you came up to the motor vehicle, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you find the deceased, Mr Smith, that's the man who was eventually shot, was he still in the vehicle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, he was outside the vehicle.

MR PRIOR: Do you know how he got out the vehicle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I don't know, because two people came out of the other side if I'm not mistaken, or it was one person, I'm not sure.

MR PRIOR: When you saw him for the first time, or when you got close to him, was he in the position "G" on photograph 10, that is where the Policeman, or the person is crouching to the right of the photograph?  Or was he closer to the car when you first saw him?
	If you can indicate to us and be of assistance, can you maybe mark on photograph 10 on your copy, where you found the deceased, or Mr Smit - I'm referring to him by that name, because he's the person that died - in relation to the burned out car.  Are you able to do so?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot be sure of the specific place, but he was on the left side of the car.

MR PRIOR: So as far as where the people are looking in the grass, or was he a bit closer to the vehicle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That would be difficult, because things were happening in a split second, so I cannot be sure.

MR PRIOR: When you got to him, you said Ben, one of your Comrades, was standing with him, or near him, pointing a fire-arm at him.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Where was Mr Letlapa Mphahlele?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: As I've already said, he was on the left side.  He was a distance from them.  He then came at the time when we were with this white man.

MR PRIOR: Mr Smit was sitting in a sitting position, is that right?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: He was breathing, obviously, he was alive.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you speak to him, did you say anything to him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, because I was not there to speak to him.

MR PRIOR: So, you never spoke to him.  Did Ben or Mr Letlapa Mphahlele speak to him at all?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't know why they would speak to him.

MR PRIOR: Mr Smit, the deceased, did he speak at all?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't know whether he spoke, because I was not interested in what he was saying.

MR PRIOR: We're finding out, or trying to find out because we weren't there, was he pleading for his life, asking you not to shoot him, not to kill him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Even if he said something, I could not record that because I was not interested in what he was saying.

MR PRIOR: What were you interested in, if you were not interested in what he was saying?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was interested in what I was there to do?

MR PRIOR: And that was to kill him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that in the position that you found him, he must have been injured at that stage, because he couldn't get away from you there?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It might be so.

MR PRIOR: Did you see any injury on him, or blood on his clothing that would indicate that to you at that stage?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I didn't notice any blood.

MR PRIOR: Can you say whether he had his hands up, put his hands up towards you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was not interested in what this white man was doing.

MR PRIOR: Tell, us, you were there, and we need to know everything that happened there.  Did he raise his hands as if to show that he had nothing with him, he was unarmed?  Did he, or didn't he?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I can say that, but I cannot remember clearly, but even if a person is going to be killed, he'd lift his hands.

MR PRIOR: You could have taken him prisoner, is that right?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Unfortunately we were not to take any prisoners.

MR PRIOR: Who told you that, and when was that said to you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I'm sure that in the history of PAC you did not hear about that.  Where would we keep him, because we were not there to take him.  Where would we keep him?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I hear that answer, and the reason why I asked that question is that because we've seen the 15 points of attention that have been brought to our attention by APLA, that have been submitted in many of these hearings, and are you familiar as a trained soldier of APLA, with the 15 points of attention?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Can you tell us what point 14 says, out of your own, or would you like me to read it to you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: You can read it.

MR PRIOR: It says "do no ill-treat captives or anyone in your charge".  Are you familiar with that point of attention?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) analyse that, Mr Smit as he was there, he had been shot, or injured, he wasn't going anywhere.  You said he may well have had his hands up, in that circumstance was he not your captive or in your charge?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Are you referring to the 15 points of attention?

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) and you've heard me well on that.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: My answer is that you must look at who wrote the 15 points of attention, under which conditions how are we adopting this, because the 15 points of attention are referring to the people in liberated areas.

MR PRIOR: Well I don't know what captives the 15 points of attention refer to, but be that as it may, we'll leave it there.
	How many times did you shoot Mr Smit with your R5 rifle while he was sitting in front of you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I could not count because the firearm was in rapid, so I could not count.

MR PRIOR: And then after you had shot him, did he fall down, was he laying on the ground?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Mr Letlapa Mphahlele then came with the .38 special revolver, is that right?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) his head?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: In the back of the neck or the front of the head?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was in the head.

MR PRIOR: At very close rang?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, it was in a close range, because this white man was sitting here and while I was shooting him he was sitting right here.

MR PRIOR: I want to establish, after you had shot him, did he fall over, or was he still sitting when Mr Letlapa Mphahlele shot him in the head?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He fell.

MR PRIOR: Was he still alive at that stage, or was he dead, or was he moving, or what?  What was the position?