Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DORFLING: As it pleases the Committee Mr Chair.  Mr Beea may I as you about the group that you saw coming around the corner.  As I understood your evidence at the inquest court, your evidence was to the effect that as you arrived at the corner and as you ran towards the intersection of de Villiers and King George Street you saw the marchers coming around the corner.  Maybe I could just read from the inquest record for you to just clarify that that is the position you maintain today.  I'm reading Mr Chair from page 6912 at lines 27 and further.  Maybe I should start reading at line 19 just to put the full picture before the witness:  "Alright and what did you then do regarding the main incident, where did you go and where did you stand and what happened, can you tell the court in your own words?", "Yes, after rushing down, after seeing the group" - that's now from the boardroom as you've put it now today - "after seeing the group I rushed down primarily to inform my colleagues and comrades and immediately after turning into King George towards de Villiers, I think I was halfway towards the corner of de Villiers and King George when suddenly a group of marchers which I want to believe is the group that I saw when I was on the 18th floor, came around the corner charging, running and shooting".  Do you confirm that evidence?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I can't find that but yes.

MR DORFLING: Sorry sir, I would like you to have it in front of you, it's page 6912 at line 19.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair can I quickly run through this?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Thank you.  Yes.

MR DORFLING: Do you confirm the evidence Mr Beea?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes I do.

MR DORFLING: May I also then refer you to page 6916 at the top of the page, the first four lines.  Have you got that?  It reads as follows:  "What happened then - alright I take it back - you say you saw the people rushing around the corner, what happened then.  What else did you see?"  "Immediately there was shooting and one had to retreat".  In other words as you saw the marchers coming around the corner, whilst you were preceding up King George Street towards de Villiers, immediately as the crowd turned around the corner there was shooting.  That was your evidence, is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes that's correct.

MR DORFLING: And may I lastly also refer you to page 6911 from the third line onwards with reference to this specific group.  "Alright and can you describe this group, can you describe the attitude of the group?"  Have you got it Mr Beea?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes I do.

MR DORFLING: Your response is the following:  "Yes because one had seen other groups before.  This groups was different in that it was approaching Shell House very very quietly".  Do you confirm that evidence?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes Chair I do.

MR DORFLING: Now Mr Beea I want to put it to you that this evidence of yours pertaining to this group is in direct conflict with some of your colleagues and co-applicants in these proceedings evidence.  The evidence for example of Mr Kruser was that as the group got to the corner they hesitated, it seemed like they regrouped, there was a kind of a war dance, Mr Zuma explained to him that these people were doing a war dance and only then did they start charging forward.  It is in direct conflict with your evidence.  Would you like to offer any explanation why there would be such a dramatic difference between the two versions?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I don't see the difference because I think I have stated initially that if I have to say this and I don't mean that, that I felt and I can feel that probably I was ambushed.  I was not at the corner for longer than a minute.  I bumped into fire so I never had the opportunity and liberty to observe the dance and the song.  I came at a time when the group was charging.

MR DORFLING: No but Mr Beea your evidence at the inquest was quite clear, the first sight you had of these people was as they entered coming around the corner.  In other words they hadn't reached the corner before you, you were already in King George Street going north towards de Villiers and only at that stage did those people, the marchers, come around the corner.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I believe so and I still do.  Because I found people outside waiting, these are people who say that group did one, two, three, four.  I was not part of that.  At the time that I came out that's when there was fire in exchange and the charge and all that so I never had that chance to see that, I wasn't part of the group that saw that, I joined the group with the intention of alerting them but I bumped into this.  As to whether it happened or it did not, I cannot - I don't know what else to say Honourable Chair, I did not see that.

MR DORFLING: Mr Beea it couldn't have happened prior to your arrival because at the time when you were already in King George Street, only then did the group enter into that or came around that corner.  It couldn't have happened in that intersection prior to your arrival.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Chairperson I arrived there and it didn't take a minute whilst I was there.  I cannot even recall as to whether I was stationary, whether I had taken position or not because I used the pillars to retreat, I was not stationed waiting for people ready, pointing a gun it is in that intersection - excuse me - it is in that period, in those seconds that this thing happened so I never had chance to actually stop and wait, I was forced to retreat before I could even stop to observe anything.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I, for purposes of reference to the Committee, just indicate the passages I'm referring to in Mr Kruser and Mr Molefe's evidence in this regard which I indicate shows the contradiction.  As far as Mr Kruser is concerned, page 2640 of the record from lines nine to twenty.  2640 Mr Chair, lines nine to twenty and as far as Mr Molefe is concerned, page 3026 lines sixteen to twenty one.  I put it to you Mr Beea that the contradiction between your evidence and the evidence of Mr Kruser and Mr Molefe and the reason for the contradiction is because you are fabricating.  Would you care to comment?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chairperson my understanding is that contradictions do not necessarily mean a lie, there could be contradictions.  I saw what I saw and I'm relating events as I saw them.  Mr Kruser saw events the way he saw them, he's relating them the way, it's how I understand, the way he says he saw them and there is bound to be contradictions.  If I'm allowed a minute just to try and illustrate this that let's suppose it's the end of the month, we all have money.  You go into Sandton City, into Hyperama to shop.  There's a lot of people, pandemonium and all that.  If I can take out my weapon in that shop, shoot in the air, people scatter, you regroup them ten minutes later and ask them individually as to what happened, I do not believe that each and every one of them will give you an exact, there is bound to be contradiction and I'm not to sure if those contradictions mean that those people are lying.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that those people are lying, so just that your evidence was fabricated, as I see the word?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I do not agree Chair.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling just for purpose of my record, what is the conflict that you're referring to here.  Does the conflict relate to the fact that the group was approaching very quietly?