Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, I'll start with the question of disclosure and non-disclosure.  I submit Mr Chairman with respect, out of all the applicants there are two applicants who disclosed what they did and what happened.  It is Mr Toto and Sibuqashe.  Now if one looks at their evidence, Mr Chairman, they disclosed everything as they saw it happening and on their own evidence Mr Chairman, nothing suggested that there was something political.  All I say is that slogans were chanted and also freedom songs were sung but there was at no stage where it was said that look, our aim is to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo.  They are saying it was said that the people were interested in the their pensions, the people were interested in the question of the monies which have been misappropriated by their officers.  Now it becomes very clear that even if ...(indistinct) this notion of Brigadier Gqozo resigning, from the evidence as a whole, that was never communicated to Brigadier Gqozo.  Now how on earth can it be said that A wants B to do this but yet B is not told?  Therefore on the question of this being a political, this having a political motive, I submit Mr Chairman with respect, it does not meet any of the means test in the sense that chanting of slogans and singing of freedom songs, it's a daily thing, which happens every day.  At times it does not have any meaning.  The policemen, Mr Chairman, never addressed a question of Brigadier Gqozo resigning.  All they addressed were their pensions.  All they addressed was their future and it cannot be said that they were having a political motive.  Coming to the question of the resignation of Brigadier Gqozo.  Brigadier Gqozo, Mr Chairman, did not resign because the police wanted him to resign.  I am saying that Mr Chairman because firstly that was never communicated to him.
	Secondly, he resigned after he has communicated with the army but is it that he was communicating with the army?  He was saying "army, go and assist so and so."  Now the army said no, the concerns the police are having are the same concerns we are having.  We want to know about our pension.
	Now Mr Chairman, the police had sent somebody to discuss the pension with Brigadier Gqozo, Mr Nokala.  The army has not sent anyone.  All Brigadier Gqozo is doing is saying the concerns of the police must be addressed.  He doesn't know that the police don't want him, that was never communicated to him and amongst the policemen who were in the hall, Mr Chairman, there is not a single policeman who says we won't leave this hall unless Brigadier Gqozo has resigned.  None.  There is no evidence to that effect.  All that was there was "down with Brigadier Gqozo."  Understandably so because they believed that their pensions, they can get them from Brigadier Gqozo, which was not the case and the fact that, Mr Chairman, they demand from the Commissioner of Police to disclose their pensions.  It shows how short sighted they were, to think that the commissioner is the one who is handling the funds whereas in truth and reality it was the Minister of Finance.  
	Now arrangements were made, Mr Chairman, for them to see the Minister of Finance although it has not materialised.  Now it is very clear Mr Chairman from the evidence led that there was nothing like a coup planned by the police and also there was nothing that was agreed to, that it's going to be a programme of action for the day.  
	Now the other issue Mr Chairman is the issue of whether there was a violation of the rights of the victims.  It is clear Mr Chairman from the evidence of Toto and Sibuqashe and other witnesses that the officers were taken against their will.  The officers in the hall were detained against their will and Mr Chairman it would be a great mistake to think that people, with respect, are in the hall and yet what is happening in the hall is not communicated to them like that, look we can only release you guys after Brigadier Gqozo has resigned.  There was no such talk.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the pension monies paid out to the police?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I'm sorry Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: The pension monies, were the monies paid out to the police?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, all we know from the evidence is that the money which was allegedly held by the officers in particular Nqoya was withdrawn and paid out to the police the following day and they left the stadium without taking care of other people's interests.  These are people with a political motive yet they leave the stadium and people were so disillusioned, they said there they are, they are only looking after their interests.  So it is very clear, Mr Chairman, that these people never had any political motive.  Had Nqoya came back, Mr Chairman, we would get a clear picture.  When Nqoya has been taken back to the college, it is not said, he is not asked what is happening.  All they're doing, they're humiliating him.  Now, how is it political?  How is it political related?  And, if they wanted to achieve an objective of Gqozo resigning, Gqozo had already resigned when Mr Sawuti, Mr Adoni were brought there and when they arrived there they are asked about the monies.  Subsequent to that they are charged.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it clear to them that Gqozo had resigned?  Was it during the course of the night or when was it ...(indistinct) that Gqozo is now off the scene?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It was at the time Mr Chairman when Inspector Nkwenkwe went to Brigadier Gqozo and Brigadier Gqozo said "look, you've disappointed me and the soldiers have disappointed me, I'm all by myself now, I have already resigned, I have spoken to Pik Botha."  Now there is evidence Mr Chairman that one of the policemen on TV said we have overthrown Gqozo or Gqozo has resigned and that clearly shows that they believed in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Or the one that was interviewed?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Or that one believed in that, the one who was interviewed.  Moreover, Mr Chairman, Nkwenkwe had told them already that he has phoned Pik Botha, he has resigned and Mr Chairman, after that they still continue asking people about monies.  That would be expected of people who want somebody to resign, was then to go to the key position.  If those people had committed a coup as they claim, they would go to the key position, amongst others, they would go to the radio station to announce to the nation that we did this, this is the situation and it would be expected of them, Mr Chairman, to at least have a plan that after he has resigned we to do A,B,C.  They don't have a plan, all they do, they go to the stadium, they are told that their monies are ready.  They leave everything now, they go to their monies, those are the people with a political motive?   I submit Mr Chairman with respect there was no political motive.  Lastly Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Before you take your last point Mr Nompozolo can you just assist me here.  At the time when Brigadier Nqoya said that he was going to see Brigadier Gqozo, the meeting knew about it, was there any evidence to suggest that he was asked to convey to Gqozo that they wanted him to resign?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you counsel.  The situation is, the evidence is to the effect that when Luwana went to Nqoya and said that Brigadier Gqozo wants to see you, he announced it and he said to them give me your grievances, I'm going to take them to Brigadier Gqozo and their grievances, Mr Chairman, were pensions and their future.  So there is no evidence that Nqoya was told that Brigadier Gqozo must resign.  It was so easy for them to do that, to say he must resign because they were not going to communicate with him directly.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they want him at the meeting, wasn't that the purpose?