Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On the list is written, he is written twice on eight and nine, Mr Chairman.  On the list of victims I have indicated.  They wrote his name twice.

JUDGE WILSON: Where is the list of victims?  Which page?  Where is this list of victims you are referring to?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The Investigation Report, Mr Chairman.  I will check the page quickly.  Page 38.

JUDGE WILSON: I think the list at the indictment is far more reliable.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am indebted to the Chair, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Number nine there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mthembu, is it correct that you said you want to come and testify, but you want to put to the word that you testify as how you feel about the whole incident?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will you please do so and tell the committee how you feel.

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: At Gengeshe violence erupted between the ANC and the IFP.  There were divisions between the two organisations.  They hated each other, therefore there was always conflict between the two organisations.  We heard while I were at home, lower Umkumazi, we heard that Poswa's son by the name of Mandlenkosi has been shot.  While we were trying to go to the place to see what happened, we were told that the Poswa family have left the area.  Only the IFP members are staying in that area.  After that we heard from the IFP that all young men should go to Indaba Zimboeza Poswa's area, who was the Induna at that time.  I was at home myself.  I said it should not only be children, why should it be children.  Is it a war or what is going on, because this is a family matter within the Poswa family.
	However, the headman said they should come.  The young men listened.  They went to the area and my son also accompanied them.  They were there to guard his family, that if ever he is attacked, they can protect him.  After that I left the area to stay in Durban, because all the people have left the area and I went to stay in Pinetown.  One particular day we listened to a radio and we heard that people have been killed at Gengeshe.  It was another ten people who were killed.  I was also listening, because I did not know whether my son was involved.  We were listening, on the second day they mentioned my son's name, that he died on that particular violence.  That his name was Dumisani Mthembu.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mthembu, sorry for interrupting.  Do you belong to any political organisation yourself?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: I use to be an ANC member.  People did not know me as an ANC member in my area, because I was only known as ANC member in town.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you not want it to be known in the village that you are ANC?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: There were no organisations at that time.  Organisations were operating in towns.  In towns, at homes we were under a chief.  The organisations started late.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, you have testified so far that your son, Dumisani Mthembu, was also killed.

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he, to which political organisation did he belong?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: He died in an, as an IFP member.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, how did you, how did the death of your son affect you, if it did affect you?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: This hurt me a lot, because he was about to be married, but I blame the political situation, because before this political activity in the area, we were living in peace.  There was not an IFP or ANC, it was a peaceful situation.  Therefore, I blame politics and the organisations which had caused the death of my son.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mthembu, part of the mandate of the Truth Commission is to foster reconciliation particularly between or amongst people who have been torn apart by politics.  Do you understand?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, what is your view about this reconciliation?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: I knew that we were not enemies.  It was only the politics which infiltrated the area and at the moment, I will say, we have reconciled in the area.  People at Patene and Richmond have reconciled and even at Gengeshe and I would like to see peace in this area, because we are not enemies, but the organisations made us to be enemies.  Although I lost my son I will still think we should be reconciled.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The two applicants, whose evidence you listened to today, they are before this committee, particularly, for amnesty and they are also asking for forgiveness.  What is your attitude towards that?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: I do forgive them, because I knew we were not enemies.  It was politics that caused the animosity in the whole world and even today when we talk to them, they are so nice to us and they also wish for reconciliation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mthembu, finally, what you have, what you are saying now, is it your, how you feel or is it the feeling of your family as well as the Poswa's family at home?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: I will say my family and the other families around us.  I am saying, I am begging Gengeshe, I am not saying Gengeshe, but our people are trying that we all come back at that area.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

MR WILLS: I have no questions.  I would just like to express my great respect for the witness at this stage.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY MR WILLS

JUDGE WILSON: I would just like to ask you one or two questions, Mr Mthembu.  As I understand it, after the death of young Mr Poswa's son, you went to try to find out what had happened?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: I did not try to go there, because we did not visit each other at that time.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you told us when you went to find out what was happening, you were told that the Poswa family had left the area?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: May you please repeat your question.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought, I may have misunderstood you, I thought you said at your, in your beginning of your evidence that when you went to find out what had happened, you were told that the Poswa family and the others had left the area, that there were only IFP people left.

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: Yes, I met one of, a young boy from the Poswa family and I asked him, he is by the name of Mandlenkosi, I asked him where were they, where are they.  He said they ran away and, therefore, I did not go on to that, towards the area, I just turned back and went back home.

JUDGE WILSON: And it was after that, I think you told us, that the IFP headman ordered all the young men to report to him?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: That was the headman of youth.  He is the one who called them to come and gather at that place.

JUDGE WILSON: And he gathered all the young men together including your own son?

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: He was shouting above the hill, saying all the young men shall go above the, towards the hill and they shall be armed in going towards Gengeshe.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: You were opposed to this and you left the area?  You went to Pinetown.

ALFRED SIKILELE MTHEMBU: I did not agree with that, because I wanted us, we as other to go there to hear what was happening.  However, he called the youth and they went there and also my son went to the place.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mthembu, I would like to express the vies of the committee, that we sympathise with you in your very tragic loss and we admire this forgiving approach that you have adopted and respect you for the honesty that you have shown in coming to tell us all what your feelings are today.  We would like to thank you very much for all you have done here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairperson and members of the committee.

JUDGE WILSON: Does that conclude the people who wish to make representation or make any statement.