Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: Then there is a just a final amendment.  Is it true that during the proceedings you and I had a conversation, you came to me and I said to you that I am not at liberty to discuss the facts of the matter with you, due to ethical reasons, but I would advise you to seek the assistance of a legal representative who will be able to see to your interests, that I would suggest to you that you do not approach any person or a legal representative who had an interest in this case but that you would appoint someone else and that you would only tell that person the truth?  Is that what I said to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Did I tell you at any stage that you should change your statement?  Just think very carefully.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, you told me that I should see to my own interests, that I shouldn't worry about Slang and the others, that they're sorted, that I should think only of my own interests and state exactly what happened, that you could not be involved in this case with me, because you are here as a victim and as a representative or a spokesperson for the victims and that is why you told me where to go.  And I went to the secretary and I thought to myself, 'I still can't trust Pietie, he just wants to fuck me around again and mislead me'.

CHAIRPERSON: I gave you two telephone numbers.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.  You phoned me at home or the secretary or somebody phoned me, because my mother kept on telling me: "Pietie's people have been phoning you", or "here are the numbers that Mr Williams gave you and they have contacted you", but I never phoned them back.

MR WILLIAMS: I gave you two numbers, one was the number of Lynn Coleridge and the other was 424-5165 or 1.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot dispute that, you did give me numbers.

MR WILLIAMS: I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Williams.  Mr Kahanovitz, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Hardien.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I do.
	Mr Hardien, maybe I just explain to you who my clients are.  I'm representing the foundation that owns the Early Learning Centre, I'm also representing somebody who was injured in the bomb blast, do you understand?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now you say you have problems remembering things, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you have problems remembering things that happened this year?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: This year?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I forget very easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you have problems remembering things that happened last week?  How far back can you remember?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot respond to you, I cannot tell you, all I can say is that I forget very easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You wait to hear the question and then you decide whether it's something that you can't remember, is that what you're telling me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: All I can say is that I forget things very easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you appear to be able to look at a statement that you handed in, sorry, a statement that you prepared fairly shortly after the event, many years ago you gave the police at a statement, correct?  You've been referred to that statement on numerous occasions, the statement that you made in detention.

CHAIRPERSON: It was made approximately four months after the bomb went off.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Is this statement?

CHAIRPERSON: It's the Secunda statement, yes, the same one.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But if I understand your evidence correctly, more than 10 years later you are able to look again at that statement and recognise that certain parts of it are false.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I've never again studied these documents, this is the first time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were referred to it today, but you were able to remember that certain parts of it were false, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Notwithstanding the problems that you have remembering things.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, if they refer to it and I can remember it, then I will say so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You have attended most of these proceedings, isn't that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, it was only that I phoned Lynn.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe you don't understand my question.  When these hearings started they were in the centre of Cape Town, do you remember?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I was there once or twice.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were there, you listened to some of the evidence.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The last occasion when we were in this hall you came and you listened to the evidence, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you've been here for most of the past two weeks.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you've heard a lot of the evidence of other witnesses on what happened at the Early Learning Centre, correct?  You must have, you were sitting here.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I wasn't here when Mr van Zyl testified and I also left while Mr Botha was testifying.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You specifically left the room so you wouldn't hear that evidence, is that what you're saying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, not at all, I simply left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh, I see.  You heard some of the evidence, but not all, is that what you're saying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I didn't really hear anything of Mr Botha's evidence, because they were referring to the other matter that he was involved in.  My own lawyer doesn't even know when I left.  He simply just realised the following morning that I was here again.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You had a number of conversations with Mr Slang van Zyl in the course of these proceedings, I saw you with my own eyes, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We discussed other matters.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Really?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm still working for the man.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You still work for him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I'm working for him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In what capacity do you work for him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He investigates him and I assist him.  How am I supposed to earn a living?  I work for him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, so does he pay you for the work that you do?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, who is going to work for free?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not saying I have a problem with this, Mr Hardien, I'm just asking you a simple question.  I don't expect you to work for free, it's a simple question.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Well obviously, I  have to get money from somewhere, how will I continue with my life?

MR KAHANOVITZ: When did he first offer you employment?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was last year.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you remember round about what month?  Was it late in the year?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It must have been after Easter or whatever.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  But you've been working for him throughout the duration of these proceedings, these Truth Commission proceedings.  Since the beginning of this year you've been working for Mr van Zyl, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Since last year.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Since last year, alright.  Do you get a monthly salary?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How much is your monthly salary?

ISGAK HARDIEN: R1 500.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And do you get extra money for additional information that you supply?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, straight.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No bonuses?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.  At the end of the year, Xmas time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I assume you and Mr van Zyl must have had some discussions about the nature of the evidence that you were going to give here.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Never?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Isn't that very unnatural to not have that kind of discussion?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, we never discussed the matter.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You just talked about everything else under the sun, all those things that the two of you have in common besides this case?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We never discussed this matter, if we discussed things here it was work.