Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

ANDILE SHICEKA: After that he returned and said everything is okay.  When he did so I said: "Let's go ...[indistinct].   We went inside, myself and Scorpion stood at the door.  We did not go inside, we stood at the doors, we shot inside. After having done so we went back to our car, we drove back to Shauna's place.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you - you stood at the door and you just shot, you just shot indiscriminately, you didn't look at who or what you were shooting at?

ANDILE SHICEKA: DK had already checked that everything is okay.  When we went there we did not go to check again, we went there to shoot.  As to who was inside, we knew that it was white people and we had gone there to shoot them.

NORMAN ARENDSE: What was the objective?

ANDILE SHICEKA: To fulfil the aims and objectives of the PAC.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Which was?

ANDILE SHICEKA: To liberate the African masses from the white oppressors.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How were you going to do that by standing at the entrance of a restaurant in Claremont and shooting at people inside the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We saw those people inside the restaurant.  The restaurant has windows, you can see who is inside.

NORMAN ARENDSE: My question is, how were you going to achieve the objectives of the PAC and APLA by shooting at people sitting inside the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We would achieve these aims and objectives in this fashion:  A white person is an oppressor, nobody does not know this then.  If we hit white people hard, clearly white people are going to go to their leaders, de Klerk or whoever was leading them in parliament and say: "Gents you can see it is difficult, these people are attacking us, please give the land back to its own people".  We must put pressure on the white public to show that we are very serious about what we want.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say then that it is not as if that evening or during that operation you were going to immediately achieve your objective, but it was a form of applying pressure on the government of the day, the apartheid government of the day?  You're nodding, the machine can't pick up your - what is your answer to that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Can you please repeat?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Would it be correct to say that operation that day or that night, you weren't going to achieve your objectives immediately.  The operation was a form of applying pressure on the apartheid government of the day, for them to realise that you are serious about liberating the black masses?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: If I may just deal with this also. There were also a number of attacks around that period, St James, Heidelberg, the Newcastle Disco, was that part of a pattern?  Was that part of the same pattern of attacks that were now being launched by APLA?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You were involved in the Newcastle Disco shootings.

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You applied for amnesty and you were granted amnesty in respect of that incident.

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The objective, was the objective in that attack the same as with this one, the Claremont restaurant attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: After the - the attack, did it last a matter of minutes, seconds, how long did it last?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Seconds.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you remember how many rounds you fired?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: After the attack was finished you obviously ran back to the bakkie and you drove off, what happened to the bakkie?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We abandoned it at Downto(?).

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know what happened as a result of the attack, have you learnt subsequently what happened?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, we got to hear.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you make a report on the attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, I did make a report and the operation was claimed by APLA.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Who did you report to?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Power.

NORMAN ARENDSE: After the attack, did you stay on in Cape Town?

ANDILE SHICEKA: For some time, yes.  I stayed for some time, yes.  I stayed for a short period.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You left Cape Town?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I only left Cape Town the following year because this happened on the 26th of December and then I left in January 1993.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So it wasn't long after the attack that  you left Cape Town?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I'm sure I stayed three to four weeks.  I'm sure I left at the end of January.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you arrested at all in connection with this attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I was not arrested for this case.  What happened I was arrested for the one at Newcastle and the police as a further charge, charged me for the one at Claremont.  They charged me for the one at Claremont but through the lack of evidence the case was withdrawn.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You were arrested subsequently in connection with the Newcastle matter, is that right?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And there you were convicted and sentenced to 25 years?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But this case was withdrawn, the Claremont case?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just in retrospect.  Now it's 1998 in September and this attack happened in December of 1992, how do you now feel about what happened, about the attack?   And that it could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed as a result of the attack.

ANDILE SHICEKA: We do not complain today about that.  What happens, for the part of reconciliation, let us forgive each other and not accuse each other about this or that.  All wars are not exciting because people die, especially those who are not guilty.  Those who are involved as perpetrators do not die.  This is very sad.  I feel very sad.  What could we do?  We could not allow our people getting killed whilst we were there and allow ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: What happened about the attack?  It could have been worse, a number of people could have been killed because of the attack, fortunately no-one was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a question or is that a fact?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I speak under correction but it is a fact that no-one was killed as a result of the attack.  Some people were injured.

ANDILE SHICEKA: ...[inaudible]

NORMAN ARENDSE: The people who were in the restaurant at the time - Mr Chairman, just for the record, I'm referring not to page number 2 of the bundle, but the second page after the index of your bundle.  There is a short summary of the attack and there is also a list of names.
	It will be said that these people whose names appear here as victims, Mr Malcolm Visser, owner of the restaurant, Lizette Theunissen, Dennis Smith, Jason Collie, Alan Williams, Amanda Warner, that these persons were innocent and unarmed.  You were armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle, whatever it was, standing in front of a restaurant or shooting at them.  Do you want to comment, that the attack was launched on innocent unarmed people, white people?

ANDILE SHICEKA: What I can say is that a white person, all of them, all of them who underwent compulsory military training.  When people say they are innocent civilians I may not understand, because when you undergo military training that person is a complete soldier.
	What I want to say in relation to what is written there, all of those people must come together with us and let us talk reconciliation so that what happened in the years past can never happen again, and all of us build our country together.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now Chairperson, I take it that by now you have a copy of this affidavit in front of you, it's by Amanda Warner.  She is represented here today.  It looks like the date is 7, at the back here: 7.09.1998, I'm not sure.  7 September '98 ja, is the date of this affidavit.
	Andile, you've also had a look at this affidavit, is that correct, the one by Amanda Warner?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I've seen it already.