Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

ADV PRIOR: I see.  When you gave up an answer earlier that you did not always accept or believe what was printed in the newspaper, did that not refer to this announcement of the suspension of the armed struggle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying that when you went out with your unit and attacked all these places and people that you've said, you did not know that the PAC and/or APLA had made a public announcement to suspend the armed struggle running up to the election in April which was only a matter of weeks away from when you launched these attacks?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: If commander had told me about such a thing I would have known because he never told me about it.

ADV PRIOR: I just want to try and understand you, from January '94 until before the first attack that you've mentioned in your evidence, are you saying to the Committee or do I understand you to say that there was never, as far as you were aware, any discussion or any talk in your own social group, your own unit or your town or your home, about the suspension of the armed struggle which had been announced in a very public way by the PAC and APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I heard people talking about it on radio but I did not accept it because I could not hear through the radio, the television or the newspaper.  What I was supposed to hear as true must come from the mouth of the commander, he must tell us that today that is what is happening.

ADV PRIOR: Well, if you had heard this and you didn't believe it and you wanted to hear it from the mouth of the commander, did you perhaps at any time ask Mr Jimmy Jones whether this in fact was true or not?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question be repeated please?

ADV PRIOR: Did you at any stage before you went out on these attacks in March of '94, at any stage contact your commander or ask your commander whether the news that he armed struggle was being suspended because of the elections, where that in fact was true and whether that in fact affected you as a cadre?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not talk that with him.

ADV PRIOR: You told the Committee that Mr Leklapa Mpashlele gave evidence at your trial in the Bahai matter and he supported what you had said or had supported you in the following way, that he confirmed that there was an instruction given by the military structures to attack Bahai, that was the sense of what he told the Court, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: You see I'm going to suggest to you that in light of the suspension of the armed struggle, that instruction could never have come from the military structures of APLA who had announced the suspension of the armed struggle as is reported in the press releases.  Just for your comment, can you say anything about that?  Do you agree or disagree with that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What happened could not take weeks, days or months, it could take 6 months that all APLA soldiers who are around in South Africa be told that the armed struggle has been suspended because APLA soldiers were not in Transkei, they are full in South Africa.  It was difficult that all of them could be informed timeously about it.

ADV PRIOR: Can I just maybe ask you this question, were  you aware whether your commander, Mr Jimmy Jones, was in communication with anyone higher than himself,  for example a person like Leklapa Mpashlele, the operational commander or military operations in APLA?  Did you know whether they communicated with each other?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not know.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be much longer Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, I've basically just got into the general ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, would this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We took a slightly shorter adjournment yesterday, did that inconvenience any of the other people?  Would it inconvenience you if we adjourn until a quarter to two?  Very well, we will adjourn until a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: (s.u.o.)

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, are you able to comment on the following proposition, that the group that you've referred to being commanded by Mr Jimmy Jones, also know as Xholile Mbabani, was that a dissident group, and what I mean by that, a group that wasn't or didn't consider itself to be obedient to the rest of APLA or to the rest of the PAC?  In other words, a group that did not want to suspend the armed struggle and had decided on its own to continue with attacks.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I don't agree.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I didn't have my headset on, did you say: "no that's not the case"?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes.  No, that's the yes.

ADV PRIOR: The objective that you stated was the objective of your particular group and all these attacks,  you say was to assist liberate the country from the white settlers or the white colonialists, correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Given the time frame or the time span between the attacks and the general election that occurred a few weeks later in April, can you tell the Committee what benefit did those operations have, in other words do you think that they effected the outcome or the result of the - sorry, not result of the election, the fact of the election in any way?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: There was to be an election, you knew there was to be an election in a few weeks time when all the people in our country were going to vote, is that not so?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you must have known.  Everybody in the country who took any interest knew the election was coming.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you now hope to achieve by continuing to kill whites including white school children, a few weeks before the election that had already been arranged?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not think of benefitting anything except to follow the instructions I got.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree that there was ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Well didn't it strike you as somewhat peculiar that you were receiving instructions that weren't going to further your political mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: Doesn't it strike you as strange that you were following instructions to do things that would have no liberating effect whatsoever because the elections were due to happen?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not see it that way.

MR LAX: How did you see it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I saw it the way the instructions came, as my commander who gave these instructions would not give me instructions that were not valid at the time,  that is why I carried on as per instructions given.

MR LAX: So you didn't apply any of the political education you'd acquired, to consider these instructions or to consider the PAC's policies or to consider APLA's policies, you simply followed your instructions?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said already, all that happened at the time I was simply following orders that I was given, I could not have done otherwise because I could not contradict them.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy.
	Was there room for a discussion of these orders at any stage?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Perhaps who would discuss those?

MS GCABASHE: Yourselves as a group when you were either getting your political education or at any other time, just as a group discussion the types of things that you were doing as an organisation.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be asked in another way?

MS GCABASHE: You weren't simply a hit squad, you were a member of an organisation, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so, yes.

MS GCABASHE: Now as a member of that organisation you went for training, both military training and training on the policies of the organisation, is that correct?