Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR MAPOMA: Did you anticipate that he might have been inside the motor vehicle when you shot?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: That's true.

MR MAPOMA: Did you see at all that there was somebody inside the motor vehicle?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: I could not see at the time but when the firing started between us and the people who were guarding Mr Mkhize, there were shots that were being directed at us very close to us, so we had to take cover, lie on the ground so that we could identify the person who was shooting at us.  It was after about 15 minutes that we managed to identify that person and see that there were persons, or that they were in the car, that was when we started firing at that vehicle.

MR MAPOMA: Now it has turned out that those persons who were inside that car were Mr Shekumbuso Ndlalose and Sheabona Ngcobo and those were the persons whom you were convicted of attempting to kill.  Now, I want you to explain this.  Your intention was to kill Mr Mkhize, now you shoot at Ngcobo and Ndlalose.  Why?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: Mr Ngcobo was Mr Thulane Mkhize's guard.  At the time that we were firing, we could not really identify whether it was Mr Mkhize himself, or the police who were guarding him, because when I tried to jump over the fence into the yard, soldiers approached, so I could not even surely get into the yard.

MR MAPOMA: Now, these weapons that were used on that day, where are they now?  Do you know?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: As of now, I do not have such knowledge because after my arrest those weapons were returned to Maqongqo.  Most of the people who were with me at Mr Mkhize's house were from Maqongqo.  Those were the people who used to assist us.  Those weapons were used to shoot at a vehicle in which a child was found.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mkhize and Mr Ndlalose who are here, have indicated that in the area where this incident took place, there is now peace there, there's peace between the ANC and the IFP and they are eager to know what your attitude is regarding that peace.  If you get amnesty, aren't you going to foment the violence again?  I just want your comment on this.

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: I would say in actual fact I need to apologise to Mr Mkhize, Mr Ndlalose and Ngcobo for the commission of that act, but I hope they know that I am not a violent person.  What happened was necessitated by the situation.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Maseko.  Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I just have one question.  Tell me, Mr Maseko, have you been in the ...(indistinct) prison, when you were initially sentenced?  Have you been there all the time?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: No.  I was attending trial in Pietermaritzburg.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, at the time when you were applying for amnesty were you in the Ngome prison?  I'm just asking this ...(intervention)

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: I first applied when I was in Pietermaritzburg in 1995.  I was transferred to Ngome and I also put in another application when I was there in 1996.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, the question I actually wanted answered is, do you know whether the people at Ngome prison were informed of the amnesty process?  This has something to do with another matter, so it's not to trap you or anything, I just want to know whether at this Ngome prison, whether people were informed about the amnesty process.

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: Yes they were informed.  We were also informed at Pietermaritzburg.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, fine, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just to assist Madam Chair with regards to her question, the applications, Mr Maseko, who at Ngome prison informed you of the application for amnesty?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: It was the authorities who explained to the prisoners in general.

ADV BOSMAN: If you would just allow me one more question.  There's just something in regard to your own matter which I'd like you to clarify.  On page 3 of the papers under paragraph 11(b), you stated that Mr Baba Mahladla gave the order but in your evidence you stated that Mr Mathe gave the order to attack Mr Mkhize.  How did that come about?  If you could just clarify that for us?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: When we went out to commit that act Mr Mahladla was already deceased.   The person who was the leader then was Mr Mathe.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is, why did you state in your form that it was Mr Mahladla?  Perhaps your legal representative could just show you the form where it was stated that Mr Mahladla actually gave the order.

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: I would put it this way.  Mr Mahladla ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Please, can I just ask you everybody, please just switch off those cell phones.  Yes carry on.

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: After Mr Mahladla's death Mr Mathe assumed that position and he was assisted by me but our leader was Mr Mahladla.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a mistake in the form, is that what you're trying to say?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: I think the mistake was made by the person who assisted me because when I filled in my form I had mentioned both of them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  It's just to make sure that the people who are the victims here understand who gave you the order and it wasn't Mr Mathe, this is an error.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Just one question.

MR PANDAY: Mr Maseko, you mentioned that you know the police that were guarding Mr Thulane Mkhize were the KZP, is that correct?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Do you know who at the time was in charge of the KwaZulu police, KZP?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: I did not know.

MR PANDAY: Let me just rephrase that question to you.  Do you know, we had the South African police and the KwaZulu police in Natal?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: Yes, I am aware that the KwaZulu police belonged to the then KwaZulu government.

MR PANDAY: To the KwaZulu government, and who was the KwaZulu government?  Who were in charge of the KwaZulu government, which party?

ALBERT SBANGELISO MASEKO: It was the IFP.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Maseko, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the applicant is the only evidence that will be led, the evidence of the applicant in respect of his application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I just want to have a minute to talk to ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)  Yes, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I have just consulted with Mr Mkhize and Mr Ndlalose, they say they confirm some, almost all what the applicant has said and they would like it to be placed on record that they would wish that Mr Maseko would stick to what he has said about peace in that area.  That is all, Chairperson.  I would also, at this stage, would like to point out that Mr Mkhize's motor vehicle was damaged during the shoot-out.   Mr Shekumbuso Ndlalose and Sheabona Alfeus Ngcobo suffered gunshot wounds as a result of the attempt on their lives, arising from the shoot-out.  That is all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  We have noted what you have placed on record and we've noted the attitude of the two interested parties.  Where's your client now?  Or perhaps let me just hear from you, perhaps it's not necessary to ask him.  Is it common cause that the vehicle was damaged in the attack?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Then there's no need to ask your client.  I assume Mr Mapoma, the damage  was caused by the bullets that were fired at the vehicle?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.