Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-10

MR FORTUIN: I withdraw Mr Chairperson.  Just maybe just to say that if somebody wants to get detail of his membership, if he is a member of the PAC, and he wants to confirm that he is a member of the PAC, is it very easy for that person to go to the Branch and get the detail of his membership or is it a difficult process?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: It is easy if you want to ensure that it proves that you are a member, to get those details from the Branch Executive.

MR FORTUIN: Now coming to the conflict sir, you say the conflict started, the domestic problem which eventually became a problem that the PAC and its members were being attacked, started in 1991, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Correct.

MR FORTUIN: Do you know of - was that the period as was commonly known in the Western Cape where the Witdoeke and the comrades were in conflict with one another, 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The Witdoeke's period was in 1986, not 1991.

MR FORTUIN: You say that the conflict started in 1991, and then PAC members were attacked.  Did these attacks take place from 1991 up till what year?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: After the attacks stopped, the attacks resurfaced again in, now as they have now again been established, as we now have this problem of PAC members being attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that, when did they resurface?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The present ones started as the community problems being referred to by residents to the Council, but now what is happening is that we currently have four members of the PAC who have been killed, as I am speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was, you see, there were these attacks which took place in 1991, you say then there was a period of quiet and you said that they resurfaced.  I want to know from you when did they resurface?
	I am not talking about the day, I am talking about after 1991 they ceased, when did they commence again?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I think they started there around 1993, by the time Yster and Hlaheta were being shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So you say the attacks first took place in 1991 and it resurfaced in 1993, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Correct.

MR FORTUIN: So you are quite sure it is now 1993 and you are not thinking any more, but you are quite certain it is 1993?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: You see, the reason why I think it was in 1993, I am just calculating the time we had the lull from 1991 and the time when the killings started again.  I think and become certain kind of, that it was 1993 the time that they resurfaced.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know when the Task Team was formed of the PAC?

CHAIRPERSON: The Task Force?

MR FORTUIN: The Task Force, sorry?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: No, I would not be able to know anything about that, I am not connected to those.

MR FORTUIN: When did you report the incident, was it in 1991 when the Organiser said he would refer that to the Task Team, the Task Force, sorry?  So the Task Force was established in 1991, is that correct?  Or it was in existence in 1991, the Task Force?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I do not know when the Task Force was first established, but I know it is a long time that we had the Task Force around.

MR FORTUIN: I just want to confirm that the Task Force was in existence in 1991, is that correct?  When you spoke to your Organiser, he said he was going to refer that to the Task Force, so in 1991 the Task Force was established already, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: It was yes, in existence.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know if anything happened with the report that you gave the Police about the attacks in 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Like what?

MR FORTUIN: Do you know whether the people that were caught, or rather let me say do you know whether people were caught and arrested or prosecuted or do you know anything that happened of the incident that you reported to the Police, I assume in 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I heard around about that, but I cannot tell myself.  I do not know directly as to that did happen.

MR FORTUIN: May I ask you what did you hear?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: That there were members who had been arrested.

MR FORTUIN: Did that members belong to a political organisation?

MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, if I may come in.  I am not so sure if there is not a misunderstanding.  If the question can be repeated to the witness to make sure that the reply that we get, relates to the same incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Just clear that up.  Please listen to me.  After the house was attacked, the matter was reported to the Police, you reported it to your Branch.  The question is, did the Police do anything at all about it after it was reported?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: On the side of the Police, nobody was ever arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned, nothing further happened?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR FORTUIN: Can you tell the Commission when in 1993 did these attacks start again?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I would not be able to remember the month.

MR FORTUIN: Excuse me sir, can we make it easier, was it in the beginning of the year, the middle of the year or the end of 1993?  You don't have to mention the month.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I think in the middle of the year.

MR FORTUIN: Are you quite certain of that sir?

CHAIRPERSON: He just said he thinks.  There is hardly anything about certainty.  He doesn't know the month.  You asked him whether it was the beginning or the middle.  He thinks it was in the middle of the year, now how much further can you take that?

MR FORTUIN: Did you also in 1993 report the attacks to the Police?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: We did so.  We reported the matter to the Police.

MR FORTUIN: Do you know who was responsible for the attack on Mr Depoutch Elese's house or his uncle's house?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I do not know.

MR FORTUIN: Can you tell the Commission where Mr Maduna lived before he was arrested?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: As far as I know him, he used to stay at Nyanga.

MR FORTUIN: And does Nyanga have a separate PAC Branch to the one of Crossroads?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Nyanga attaches to Crossroads because they do not have many members at Nyanga.

MR FORTUIN: You also testified that you could not identify the people that was responsible for the attacks on PAC members, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: You know it is not a question of identifying people, he does not know who attacked.

MR FORTUIN: Maybe I can just rephrase Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know or was the group who attacked PAC members, identified as a specific group?  Do you know of any individuals that were identified that was involved in the attacks.  Do you know whether it was ...

CHAIRPERSON: Too many questions.  One question at a time.  Just answer this.  Do you know who attacked the PAC members?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the end of the matter.

MR FORTUIN: Lastly sir, when you - do the PAC support the application of Mr Maduna for amnesty and is there any statement as regards to the application of Mr Maduna that the PAC has produced regarding his application?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I would not know about the National Office because everything emanates from the National Office.

MR FORTUIN: Therefore sir, do you have a mandate to testify on behalf of the PAC as to regards to the membership of Mr Maduna if everything emanates from the National Office?

CHAIRPERSON: He was approached yesterday by the lawyer of Mr Maduna as a witness.  He says he has come from work, here and I can't imagine any formal decisions being taken at an organisational level for him to come and give evidence.
	Now, if you are saying that he has no authority to talk on behalf of the PAC, then you must put it on that basis, no formal authority.  If that is what you are trying to say.

MR FORTUIN: I take your point Mr Chairperson.  Maybe I should just rephrase that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.