Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

MR VISSER: Yes it's a medium sized, it's a smallish medium sized motorcar.  I want to put to you, and I do that for the reason that anyone can then check it if they disagree, that the top of the roof of a Nissan motorcar is 1,35 metres, given a millimetre or two either side - I'm not going to argue about that, but roughly 1,35 millimetres(sic).  Would you - well I wouldn't ask you to agree with it or not, I'm just placing it on record.  And I'm putting to you that if you took the measurement of a person's head, it would come to approximately 20/30 centimetres, which would bring us to around 1,6 metres.  Was that how tall Ntombi Kubheka was?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I cannot estimate that, but all I can say certainly for sure was that she was slightly taller than me, as I said.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Would you really ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just to be fair, Mr Visser, you did run the thing right along your head from around, rather than in a straight.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, this is not a scientific evidence, but 25/30 does - around 1,6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, 30 centimetres in the old terminology is a foot.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My hand is 8 inches.

MR VISSER: Yes, 37 would be a ...

CHAIRPERSON: So it's less than 30.

MR VISSER: Ja, make it 25, plus 1,35 brings you to around 1,6.
	Would you Mrs Masetla, ever have described your sister, Ntombi Kubheka, as a considerably short person?  Would you have described yourself as a considerably short person?  As a female person.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I am short myself, but it's easier for me and also as we were growing up, you know we are - my family is not tall, but it's easier for me if I make it in relation to us, because I'm taller than my sister.

MR VISSER: Which sister?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: My sister, Sibongile.

MR VISSER: Sibongile.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: So this is why it's easier for me to say my sister was slightly taller because the two that are late, were slightly taller than us.  So it's not tall in general, but it's compared to the other members of the family.

MR VISSER: Yes, I accept that.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: This is why it's easier for me.

MR VISSER: Fair enough.  And Ntombi Kubheka's daughter, she's very tall, isn't she?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, she is.  I don't have to justify that also, but it's important to note that the father's side is very tall and in all respects she resembles the father.  In the same fashion you look at the son also, he is tall.

MR VISSER: Yes 1,7 or something.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: We do not - when we reflect on the height of the family, like I'm saying I'm comparing my sister with her siblings, we do not reflect on them because the children are taller.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mrs Masetla, you said that on photograph, Exhibit R27, if I understand your evidence correctly this photograph was taken after you had left in - you said February ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Are you referring to R27?

CHAIRPERSON: The photograph of Ntombi sitting on the bed with what seems to be some money and a note book.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.
	Now you say, or you said in your evidence:
"This was taken when I left the country"
now do you mean to say this was taken after you had left the country?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: "After I had left the country", qualifying that is the fact that my sister knew the house more than I did then because she had lived with my sister, but also for me she's counting money.  She had no business then when I was still in the country and the only business they had was one of the taxis which of course the husband when he was staying here in Durban, in Inanda, he only went to eSikhawini, joined her or joined us at eSikhawini over weekends.  So she had no reason to count the money.
	Now this is why I'm saying "after I had left", because they had a business of the car workshop and she worked in that business, she ran it, that business.  So for me she's counting the money.  And my sister confirmed that she recognised the bedspread.  She recognised the fact that my sister was breastfeeding then.  So those are all the factors that made me realise that, or roughly say I had left the country already.

MR VISSER: Yes, you know I was really only going to ask you whether anybody thought that at the time when this photograph was taken, Mrs Kubheka was pregnant.  But that's not your inference, is it, that she was pregnant at the time?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Myself I did - maybe you picked up the passage talk, I did say on the corridors when we were talking, we were trying to speak to recognise ...(indistinct) I did say "Sibo, wasn't she pregnant at that time?"  That's what I thought, and Sibo said - that's my sister, she said "No, she was breastfeeding."  ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: So it's really her evidence, not yours, that's what you're saying?  You're drawing all sorts of inferences from she told you?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I think I've qualified that with my reasoning also, that there is money being counted, she's got a book there and when I was staying with her before I left the country, that facts was not there.

MR VISSER: When did ...(intervention)

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: So I qualified hers with mine.

MR VISSER: When did the husband, as you referred to him, start with his taxi business?  Wasn't it at the time between 1979 and '83, when you lived with Ntombi Kubheka?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: He was - Kehla, Kehla Ngcobo, he was a taxi man even before they met with my sister.  He was coming from Inanda area.  He was running taxis in this area, Inanda and Durban.

MR VISSER: And I take it as a good husband, sometimes he would give Ntombi Kubheka money, surely?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes of course, he would give her money, but I did say she had no reason to count the money and also I know very well, it's a fact that I stayed with her.  I went to stay with her when eSikhawini was opened, because it was a new area.  I went to stay there with her.  I know for the fact.

MR VISSER: Yes.  When you say Exhibit R26 refers to the daughter, are you talking about the person who is referred to as Tuli?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: That's Tulisile Pheki.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And that is the daughter sitting here?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: That's the only daughter she has, the one sitting here.

MR VISSER: Did you ever know this child as a baby, or had you left already?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Come again?

MR VISSER: Did you know this child as a baby?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I didn't know her as a baby, I had left.  She was born shortly after I had left.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So how would you know that this - because you were asked and you said
"This is her when she was six months old."

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Did I say she was six months old?

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed, you were led to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: You said approximately six months old and it was estimated that this photograph was taken in the latter part of 1983, and the child was born as far as I can recall you saying, in March 1983.  I think that was what was said.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: When I said roughly the second half of 1983, I knew because I was sent the photos of her as a baby and amongst the collection of my photos I've got her there.

MR VISSER: Now I want to talk to you about that collection of photographs.  Do you have more photographs of Ms Ntombi Kubheka?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Apart from the ones that I provided, I do not.

MR VISSER: You do not?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: No.

MR VISSER: In September last year - let me ask you this first, do you live in Pretoria?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I live in Johannesburg, I stayed in Pretoria then.

MR VISSER: Alright.  In September last year we were told that one of the sisters, and I think it was you, had photographs in Pretoria of Mrs Ntombi Kubheka and that they would be provided later ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry, where was that told, Mr Chairperson?  If we can just refer to the record in that regard.