Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV FORD: You then refer also at page 329 of your affidavit Mr 
Nieuwoudt, I am reading the last sentence, and the direct 
consequence of the leaking of this sensitive information was that a 
source was detained in the Quatro camp in Angola to be interrogated 
and then we refer to annexure 15 and 20.
	Now, annexure 15 deals with the party triumphant from 1969 
to 1975 through to mutiny in 1984.  Could you explain how this had 
any relevance to this incident in 1989?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All I wanted to indicate there was that the 
people were detained in the Quatro camp.  Some of them were 
detained in Quatro camp after the unrest.

ADV FORD: And then we have also, or the Commission with 
respect, is referred to the unsigned statement of one Maqonga, 
annexure 20 at page 490.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: That deals with, if we are to place any reliance on 
this whatsoever, with what happened to him in 1985 and I think that 
is the latest date I can find in that affidavit or what purports to be 
some sort of statement.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: What earthly relevance has that got to an incident in 
1989?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I have already said this was just in support 
of the fact there was a Quatro camp where people were detained and 
interrogated and this was precisely what happened to Maqonga.

ADV FORD: And then over the page, Mr Nieuwoudt, you deal with 
this interrogation was done by the late Chris Hani and the purpose 
was to create a profile of myself and the role of the Intelligence and 
the role of the SACP/ANC alliance.  	Well, now it became personal 
didn't it, there was a profile being set up of you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: A profile which could have been used to attack you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was possible yes.

ADV FORD: Well, in so far as the Intelligence Unit, that is the 
Unit which you say came into being in June 1989, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Well, not too much could surely have passed in the 
time in the few months from its creation to when this information 
was being made available to you, Mr Nieuwoudt, or is that an 
incorrect statement?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

ADV FORD: Why was this other then for the personal profile of 
yourself, why was this of any great relevance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All I am saying here is after that informer who 
was exposed, when he came back, he told me that, that is why I 
included that.  This was why I mentioned this.

ADV FORD: Where did you get the information that the 
interrogation was conducted by the late Chris Hani?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I heard it from my source.

ADV FORD: Did you speak to this man personally?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

ADV FORD: Where did that take place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Here in Port Elizabeth.

ADV FORD: So this man was able to move from Lesotho to Port 
Elizabeth and back again?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Well, how did he know what was happening in 
Lesotho then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In this case I am referring to Quatro, that is in 
Angola.  That is not in Lesotho.

ADV FORD: I am sorry, I am referring to the beginning of that 
paragraph where you say information was received via an informer in 
Lesotho.  Could you explain the mechanics there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is like that.  We had a whole intelligence 
network where he conveyed the information to me via courier.

ADV FORD: I am sorry Mr Nieuwoudt, your informer was in 
Lesotho, is that what this paragraph is saying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Is that the previous paragraph?

ADV FORD: It is 25, no it is the same paragraph.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was like that yes.

ADV FORD: What is so?  Was your informant in Lesotho?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you spoke to him in Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: So then he moved from Lesotho to Port Elizabeth to 
speak to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, he used the intelligence network and that 
was how he conveyed the information to me.

ADV FORD: But you spoke to him personally, Mr Nieuwoudt, you 
just told us that.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I was under the impression you were referring 
to this case of Chris Hani.  I am on page 35 already.  I am sorry if I 
have misinterpreted you.

ADV FORD: We are talking about the same thing Mr Nieuwoudt, it 
is the same paragraph.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV DE JAGER: I think you are at cross purposes.  He received 
information from a informer in Lesotho, but he is annexing an 
affidavit which was made much later which confirms what the 
informer said to him that there was a camp like Quatro and there 
were people detained in Quatro.  I think that is the only reason why 
he is annexing this, as I understood his evidence why he is annexing 
those annexures.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is like that.

ADV FORD: Is that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV FORD: Well, then we get back to what my real question was 
and that is the informant from Lesotho, did you speak to him 
personally?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: You got it conveyed to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: How many people were involved in the conveyance of 
this information to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I worked this according to a courier system, 
where his report to me was in writing, it was encoded and he was 
doing target analysis in Lesotho and that information was conveyed.

ADV FORD: So you had a written report from your informer in 
Lesotho?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Do we have that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Brigadier Gilbert got that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Who got that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It went to the Security Branch and in 1991, 
these files were sent to head quarters.

ADV FORD: So if you were so able to intercept mail and 
documents going out, did you have any reason to suspect that the 
ANC weren't able to intercept documents coming this way?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was possible, yes.

ADV FORD: So the ANC might well have intercepted written 
reports from this man?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't think so.  Not in that instance.  The 
only documents they could get hold of were those documents 
provided by the four deceased, but it could not have come from my 
own source.

ADV DE JAGER: Could they not intercept in one or other way the 
letter from the courier?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If that information was known to everybody in 
the network, it could have happened.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, you are an experienced Security 
Policeman, you have referred to a lot of the literature, you have 
referred to John McEwan, is it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Do you know of work by Brigadier Fraser, are you 
aware of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't think of that now.

ADV FORD: Okay, you read extensively in so far as literature is 
concerned, relating to security, insurgency, counter-insurgency, 
intelligence, counter-intelligence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: What is the value of a Security Police operation of a 
double agent?  When you have somebody who is feeding information 
both ways, as it were?  Is that an important thing to have, is such a 
person important to the operation of a network?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If he is a double agent, no.