Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

MR ZILWA: Now, we have also heard from Maxhayi that after they heard the call of President Mandela appealing for calm and for people not to let their anger and grief get the better of them, and not to take the law into their own hands, it was decided that similar operations should not be undertaken any more, do you confirm that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: If you had heard or you had received the message even before the operation itself, that the leadership of the ANC, especially President Mandela, had made that appeal, would you have commenced with that operation at all?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Surely we would not continue.

MR ZILWA: If it was to be suggested to you that even at the time you did the operation, you were aware of the stance of the African National Congress, that is a stance against political violence, and that your operation itself was going contrary to that stance, what would be your response to that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is true that the policy of ANC is against violence, but what I would like you to know is the fact that the Self Defence Units were the Units of Umkhonto we Sizwe, or affiliated to Umkhonto we Sizwe, whereby during their training, they were being trained by the members of Umkhonto we Sizwe and the same Self Defence Units would be in situations whereby they had to take an initiative and decide upon something, according to conditions prevailing at the time.

MR ZILWA: If it were to be suggested that you knowingly acted against the ...(indistinct) of the ANC regarding violence, would you agree with that proposition in those prevailing circumstances at the time?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, ANC as the liberation movement, we would have some disagreements.

MR ZILWA: I don't know if you understand my question.  Please listen carefully.  I am saying if it would be suggested that your operation constituted a violation of the policy of the ANC of non-violence, viewing the circumstances surrounding the death of Chris Hani and everything that was happening at the time, would you agree that you knowingly acted contrary to the policy of the ANC?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: If you explain it that way, that is not true, because in the ANC, the ANC at large was, it was not accepted, the death of Chris Hani was not accepted, though he was totally against violence.

MR ZILWA: When you carried on the operation in retaliation for that death of Chris Hani, what did you hope to achieve, what objective did you hope to achieve by your action?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The objectives if one can remember, we used to see the, view the negotiations, see the negotiations at World Trade Centre that the whites were actually hiding the truth because there was an agreement to suspend the armed struggle during the negotiations.
	But, what was happening in front of our eyes and in front of the whole nation, people were dying and the government of the day, was involved.  An example of that is Boipatong incident.  That actually gave us a view that at World Trade Centre, there was some hide and seek going on.
	We wanted the then government to feel the pressure, we wanted to exact pressure on the government, to bring some concrete measures that would lead to the liberation of the people of South Africa.
	For example, I remember just before the date of election was announced, it was very difficult for them to actually say the date.  We wanted to pressurise them to set a date of the election.

MR ZILWA: Did you entertain any fears that any leaders of your organisation such as Chris Hani, might suffer the same fate as Chris Hani, did you have any such fears?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.  We wanted to convey the message that if it happened again, as Chris Hani was killed, it is something that cannot be tolerated.  We wanted them to take note that if that happened with the other leaders who were also in the list, as Chris Hani was the first person on the list, so we wanted to ensure that that doesn't happen, and we wanted them to know that they cannot continue because of our pressures.

MR ZILWA: Are those things you have mentioned, the political objective which you wanted to achieve by your action?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Is there anything else which you have not disclosed to this Committee regarding everything that occurred that you can think of, pertaining to this incident?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Are you referring to the operation itself?

MR ZILWA: As you are sitting here, you are asking for amnesty, and now one of the requirements is that you must make a full and complete disclosure of all the relevant or material facts pertaining to the incident, in relation to which you are seeking amnesty.
	What I am asking you is, is there anything else that you can think of which you feel you have not mentioned, because in order to qualify for amnesty, you must make a complete and full disclosure?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: If there is something else, maybe it is forgotten, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

MR ZILWA: Now, to the families or relatives of your victims, your innocent victims as it seems to turn out, now, what would you like to say to them regarding the loss of their beloved ones in your hands?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: To the relatives of the victims, I apologise and I would like to request them to understand the fact that I did what I did, under the situation at the time, during the then government with the aim of achieving liberation or liberation for the whole nation, under the difficult conditions and oppressions that we were under.
	As I am deeply sorry, this is - all that I am saying is from the bottom of my heart.  If I had power, if I had power to raise them from their graves, I would do that, but unfortunately I cannot do that.

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman, this is the evidence Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ZILWA

MR SMUTS: Mr Hermans, you were Publicity Secretary of the ANC Youth League, is that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Were you still Publicity Secretary of the Port St Johns ANC Branch in April of 1993?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No.

MR SMUTS: When did you occupy that position?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In 1992 - from 1991.

MR SMUTS: What was the role of the Publicity Secretary?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It was to inform people of the area about the meeting to be held and I would be in contact with the region, in order to get someone from the region.

CHAIRPERSON: As Publicity Secretary you would also be charged with distributing information about policy as it changed from time to time?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were aware during 1993, April, that the ANC had publicly taken a non-violent stand, correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Did you  inter alia receive the regular statements from the ANC Department of Information and Publicity which conveyed the policy and approach of the organisation to events, as they occurred?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, there were such things in the offices of the ANC.

MR SMUTS: And at no stage, prior to the attack on the 13th of April 1993, to your knowledge, was there any change in the policy of the ANC?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: In what manner did you learn of the death of Mr Chris Hani?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I heard this from people in town, but I didn't believe it.  I didn't believe that that was the truth, but late that day, I watched the television news and then I was sure that Chris Hani died.

CHAIRPERSON: When you watched the news, did the State President perhaps make an announcement there or addressed the nation?  I am talking about Mr Mandela?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No.  I didn't see him that day.