Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR PATEL: This is the first time the Committee hears about this, am I correct?  You didn't say anything about that this morning.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true and it is the first time I mentioned Judah Mangethi, because if I remember will mention them.  He's just one of the persons I'm remembering now.

MR PATEL: Yes.  So, if faced with a situation then you will remember.  If we can't prompt your memory then you can't remember.  Is that the story?  Tell me, Judah Zwane is the same person as Judah Mangethi?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it's the same.

UNKNOWN: May I interpose, Mr Patel.  Was the weaponry that you received from Mr Humphrey Ndlovu used in the acts that you are applying for amnesty for?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, they were used by the Black Cats.

UNKNOWN: So they were not used in the offence for which you are seeking amnesty before this Committee?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will say police were recovering all these weapons because people were using them when they were drunk.  I don't remember any of these firearms being used.

UNKNOWN: No, my question is, did you use any of the weaponry supplied by Mr Humphrey Ndlovu in respect of the offences for which you are seeking amnesty?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I used one bomb, the M26 and I never used the home-made firearms because I never use it in Ermelo.  I don't remember the other people with me using these firearms too.  I will say these are the home-made firearms which we use and they never even give me a report to that regard.  They M26, that's the one we use at Zini.  That's the one that I'm asking amnesty with regards to.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: Right.  Is that now an exhaustive list of all the weapons that you had in your possession whilst in the Ermelo area, or did you have any more weapons and who did you get them from?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: The last one was given to me by the police by the name of Mavuso and it was a .45 Magnum pistol, and that's all.  He was a policeman at the municipality.

MR PATEL: I see in paragraph one hundred and seven (107) of your affidavit you talk about having brought back with you from Ermelo a P38 pistol and a 357 Magnum.  Where did you get this from and why didn't you tell the Committee about this before?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Let me try to differentiate this.  The 357 Magnum are the ones that are normally used by the companies which has got money deliveries.  The other one was the one that was issued to me and I couldn't use it.  That's the firearm or the gun that I used to keep with me.  The P38, if I'm not making a mistake - I think I'm making a mistake.  I wanted to say a 38.  That is the one I got it in Ermelo and I used.  P38 is a pistol revolver.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just going to say the 38, is that not a revolver.  What is a pistol revolver?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I can't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that the P38 was a 38 pistol revolver.  I'm asking you what is a pistol revolver?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: A P38 is like a 9mm, there's a cassette.  A 38 gets broken.  The P38 has a magazine, a 38 has a flywheel.  That's how I differentiate them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, you can ... (incomplete)

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  You've testified with regard to paragraph one hundred and seven (107) already, am I correct, at another hearing?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: And at that hearing did you correct the apparent mistake which you see in paragraph one hundred and seven (107)?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.  At the hearings at Natal, you are correct.

MR PATEL: And you corrected it there?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, the 357 Magnum that you're talking about, you say this was issued to you.  Where was it issued to you?  Where?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was given to me by M Z Khumalo who was an assistant to M G Buthelezi.

MR PATEL: Prior to coming to Ermelo?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.  Yes.

MR PATEL: The first attack, could you just give the Committee a little bit further detail.  Did this place, this Isikhumplazi, as I understand it, it's a shopping complex?  There's a few shops there, am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I didn't put it that way.  I said there is a shop, if you're coming from Estancia you cross a bridge and there is a shop, and at the corner there is a shop for Mr Ndebele which are a distance from each other.  There is only one shop I'm referring to, and from that shop you move a bit and you find another shop for Mr Ndebele.

MR PATEL: Okay.  As I understand you, can you tell me when did this attack take place?  You say it was during 1990.  Can you remember the month?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I won't be able to remember the exact month, but I remember very well that it was in 1990 because I had just arrived in the area.

MR PATEL: It was not long after you had arrived in the area, would that be correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, if I understand your evidence correctly, the political objective sought to be sought by bringing you to this area was initially to get rid of the leadership of the ANC, that was your task that was said to you, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, it's not true.  It was not only the leaders.  You are right when you say I was supposed to eliminate the leaders of the ANC and, however, thereafter and also the followers of the ANC or members.

MR PATEL: I may have misunderstood you.  I understood your evidence to be that your initial instruction was to target ANC leaders and then Mr Noah got frustrated because you weren't able to do so, and then you were given carte blanch and you can knock off any ANC people.  Is that not how it went?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I didn't put it that way.  I said, sir, I failed to get the leaders and I went back with a report to Noah as the person who was issuing instructions to me, and he said I can also attack the youth or members of the ANC if I can't get the leaders, and that's what I did.

MR PATEL: Yes, it was a subsequent instruction that you got.  You could attack the youth and members of the ANC.  Your initial instruction was to go for the leadership of the ANC.

MR WILLS: Sorry, with respect, Mr Chairperson, I must object.  That's a slightly misleading question.  If one refers to paragraph fifty one (51), particularly the last sentence or the second last sentence, it reads that through Peter Msane, and I quote
"I should go there and kill all ANC/UDF members so as to enable the Black Cats to regain control."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was the impression I got as well from the evidence given today, that it was to go there because the Black Cats were suffering.  They had problems there and he was recruited to get across there to sort out the problems.  If you heard it differently to me, Mr Patel, you can carry on, but my impression was that the initial mandate wasn't to go specifically to eliminate leaders, but it was to attack ANC people.  But if I'm wrong you can carry on.  If I can just check my note.

MR PATEL: If I may just reply on the following basis, Mr Chairman.  As I understood it, the applicant's initial instruction which came from Ulundi was to go and assist and everybody was fair game if they belonged to the ANC.  However, when he arrived in Ermelo his commander in chief is now replaced.  It's no longer the man in Ulundi, it's now Noah.  Noah's instruction to the applicant is to take out leadership.  Thereafter that becoming futile, the instruction changed.  That's how I understood it.

UNKNOWN: Yes, obviously in context.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, put it to him then.