Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, the Committee considers this application, my applicants will submit that it will be pertinent to consider the political climate in Ciskei at the time.  There had been a lot of political activity against Gqozo, Biso Mashake, his testimony to this, the ongoing fights between the party that he created, the ADM and other movements on the ground.	
	Your worship, the applicants have stated that the police lived as they still do in these communities.  Their houses were being burnt down, they were ostracised by the community and also what complicated things for them was that Gqozo as Mr Luwana has so eloquently testified, Gqozo was against the police.  He ignored them so the police found themselves in this no win situation, the community doesn't like them and Gqozo doesn't like them either.
	Mr Chairman, the meeting, a lot has been made in cross-examination about whether the meeting was organised, whether there was any agenda, there was any action planned.  Mr Chairman, with respect, this is an oversimplification of the state in which the police found themselves.  Firstly Mr Chairman, we're dealing with policemen here, we're not dealing about members of a liberation movement who would have formed cells to discuss issues and form out plans of action.  That's one aspect.
	Secondly Mr Chairman, it would be unrealistic to suppose that it would have been easy for policemen to meet in those numbers on any other given day.  Police, Mr Chairman, are subject to the orders of their immediate officers etc., they cannot just attend meetings unless instructed to do so.  So accordingly that particular meeting presented an opportunity for those who had an agenda.  Mr Chairman, it is clear and needs no repeating that the meeting was accordingly hijacked by people with a political motive.  It may very well be so, Mr Chairman, that not all the applicants knew, in fact they told the Committee that the meeting would take a certain turn but once it had taken such a turn they identified with the proceedings and took part in the manner and form which they testified to.
	Mr Chairman, the meeting was essentially political.  Chanting slogans "down a head of state" is by it's very nature political.  I needs no further explanation.  Police armed themselves, battle plans were put in place, guarding the perimeters of the Bisho Police College, Police armed themselves with automatic firearms, officers were rounded up, Commissioner Nqoya himself was sought, Gqozo was sought as well, the soldiers joined in the meeting and one of them, we heard the evidence, took the microphone and addressed the gathering to the effect that they were supportive of what was going on and indeed Mr Chairman that was correct because even Gqozo himself was told likewise by the soldiers.  
	Now Mr Chairman, an attempt is being made to split the events of the meeting into piecemeal kind of fashion, that is an attempt is being made to separate the questioning of the officers from the meeting itself.  Now I'm not too sure Mr Chairman how this is possible.  The officers, Mr Chairman, were close to Gqozo, Mr Luwana has so testified or the police were being perceived and Mr Chairman I'll submit that that is sufficient.  Now they were disarmed.  Now the people in the know which was Mfene and Nkwenkwe say the idea was to have them all here so that Gqozo could see.  Now it is important also Mr Chairman that the police once gathered there got to understand that the soldiers had also gathered at the Bisho Military Base which would then explain why they refused to carry out Gqozo's order to go and disrupt the meeting.
	So Mr Chairman, the evidence by Mr Luwana which seeks possibly to have us conclude that we must accept that the refusal by the army to carry out the instruction by Gqozo was political in the sense that it led to him stepping down but we must not say that the conduct of the police was political.  Now your Worship this would ...(indistinct), honestly.
	What is clear, Mr Chairman, from the evidence is that the army people joined or at least associated themselves with what the police had started.  Mr Luwana has told us, Mr Chairman, that there were chants to the effect that down with Commissioner Ngoya in his presence by junior officers.  Now that on it's own Mr Chairman speaks volumes about the general mood of the meeting and the underlying intention which was to manifest itself as the day progressed.  Mr Chairman, Gqozo it is common cause resigned that particular evening.  Now Mr Chairman, the opponents of this application have not even touched that aspect as to whether the Commission should regard this as a coincidence.  Pure simple coincidence.  Well surely, Mr Chairman, they couldn't do so because there is no such coincidence.
	Your Worship, the question of the questioning of the officers Mr Chairman, we're dealing here with human beings like myself and Mr Mapoma next to me.  We are seated in a meeting, people are being brought in, what would have been expected would happen that people in the meeting would keep quiet and do nothing for the rest of that night?  Surely not?
Now  the question is maybe after the hearing that Gqozo had stepped down, nothing further should have been done but Mr Chairman that is to oversimplify the issue of - your Worship we know that the events that occurred in Boputhatswana where the soldiers believed that they had overthrow Mangope only for certain other soldiers to regroup and round up the mutineers and that could not succeed.  So Mr Chairman, what I'm saying here is that one who has got to understand that we are dealing in this matter with people who are essentially part of the armed forces of a country so they know how the armed forces functioned.  You may believe this and in fact the opposite would happen so in any event, Mr Chairman, no letter was presented to this meeting under the hand of Brigadier Gqozo to the effect that he had resigned, that's one issue.  No radio announcement by Brigadier Gqozo in person to the effect that "I'm resigning" or "I have resigned" was published at all.  He never appeared on T.V. to say "I've resigned" so that the people of Ciskei could confirm this for themselves.  At most there was an allegation to the effect that he had phoned Pik Botha to advise him of his intention to resign.  So Mr Chairman, it would be expected too much to suppose that the police should have dispersed at about 7 in the afternoon or in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Or in fact until the meeting the next day in the stadium?

MR OBOSE: Yes, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Which Gqozo had told them he would attend and address?

MR OBOSE: Yes Mr Chairman, hence the issue had to be carried to the stage that everyone had to be convinced that that is in fact so.
	Mr Chairman, on the other requirement of full disclosure, Mr Chairman there has been full disclosure by the applicants.  They have disclosed with regard to their participation in the meeting.  Mr Chairman the issue this matter occurred in 1994 in the event it appeared that people had forgotten things, that can be understood.  But the issue Mr Chairman is whether the events relevant to this application have been disclosed and Mr Chairman I'll submit that that requirement has been satisfied.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, any submissions?