Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before anybody else, let me get in with one question.  You told us a moment ago, that you were involved in the Deon Cele matter.

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that those who were involved in that with you, were Colonel Taylor?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Botha?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasserman?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Verwey?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Labuschagne?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And Brooks?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Several of the same people as in this one?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in that one also the reason advanced was that you were trying to recruit him?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

MR MALAN: I would just like to come back Mr Forster, to the reasons that was considered why the elimination must continue.
	You heard the evidence of Steyn and Botha in that the decision was taken beforehand and that there was a small chance that she could have been recruited?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, I think it would have been the first prize, that was the words used.

MR MALAN: Was this discussed with you beforehand?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, it was discussed beforehand.

MR MALAN: So you also went into this knowing that the possibility was that she would be eliminated, and that there is a small chance that she will be recruited?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: As you say, yes.

MR MALAN: These formal options that was considered, was it considered case by case?  You mentioned now the Cele incident, there the same options come to the front?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So would you say that this was a once off orientation or decision in that a person who do not cooperate, we eliminate him?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No Mr Chairperson.  It depended on the person and what the incident was.  There was no recipe if I can put it this way.

MR MALAN: But in this case, there was a recipe?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes.

MR MALAN: And in the Cele case there was a recipe?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes.

MR MALAN: Can you give us an example where you did not apply this recipe?  You do not have to mention a name, but I would prefer that you do not mention a name, but I would like to understand the circumstances where putting the person back, was a possibility?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: If there was another incident, I would have applied for it, if there was such a recipe.
	Let me try and explain to you.

MR MALAN: Let me make it easier for you.  Can you remember any incident, and just name this person A.  You know the circumstances and you can describe where placing the person back, actually occurred?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I am now really trying to help the Committee here.  You can return a person by testing him or her, you can provide that person with disinformation and see what happens at the other end through the network of your own informants.
	In other words, there were cases where people were returned without eliminating them, and then continue with the process.

MR MALAN: With respect Mr Forster, I asked you to remember an incident.  That is now an incident where you are going to Swaziland, you abduct a person, bring that person back across the border, interrogate the person, see if you can recruit the person, and then return this person.  The person is now abducted, the person knows what is going on, can identify the people who was involved, how can you return this people?  Would the informants be in danger?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, well in that instances, informants would not have been used because we were known to them.

MR MALAN: The person that you wanted to recruit, would that person then continue with activities?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It depends on the type of pressure or hold that we had on this person, in that the person would then rather go back.

MR MALAN: It seems as if we will not succeed in this line of questions, it seems as if it remains in the abstract.
	I would just like to ask you a few questions about your background.  You said that you grew up in a conservative background?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct, yes.

MR MALAN: Are your parents still alive?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No.

MR MALAN: When did they die?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: My father died in 1992 and my mother in 1976.

MR MALAN: Your father, was he a supporter of the National Party?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: He was a supporter of the National Party.

MR MALAN: Where did he live?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: At that stage he lived in Pretoria, in a clinic, but he actually lived in Pietersburg.

MR MALAN: I see in your application that your wife joined the ANC women's league, when was this?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That was in 1987, 1986.

MR MALAN: That was in this time of these incidents occurred?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, it was just after I was transferred back to Pietersburg, I think it was in 1987.

MR MALAN: Then you already experienced problems in your marriage, so the problems did not occur or started because she changed her political alliance and moved over to the ANC?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Well, it was part of it, yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to ask this question, in the safe house, do you know if there were any instruments of torture?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, there were none.

ADV SIGODI: Was that because you did not see them?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, there were none.

ADV SIGODI: Even in the other previous incident of Deon Cele,
were there none?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, there wasn't any.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: In the other incident of Cele, after it had been decided that he should be killed, he was taken out of the house, and Wasserman hit him on the head with a heavy wooden instrument?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He was taken to the grave where he was stripped, except of his underpants?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then shot?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it decided to take his clothing off?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Mr Chairperson, because afterwards we would burn it and in order to cover up the identity of the person.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose idea was it?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: At that stage it was Wasserman's idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it Wasserman's idea to hit this unfortunate man over the head?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, it happened like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Chairperson, in order to incapacitate him, render
him unconscious.  I am talking now as I saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you had to carry him to the grave?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct yes.
WITNESS EXCUSED