Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

MR WESSELS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will be very brief.  I will just swop places.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, would you do that.  What about you Mr Majokweni?

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Colonel, if the instruction to Braam Morse was to cross the border into Transkei and to seek and kill Ndondo, then it would have been a covert operation, do you agree?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, but it would have been one of the illegal ones.  That couldn't have been decided by Dan Naude or Griebenouw or Kawe.

MR WESSELS: In the event, if it was in fact a covert operation, then the presence of the Transkei Policemen would not have been needed?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  We now find members of the SAP with weapons inside an independent State and if they drive and meet with a roadblock or they are involved in an incident, then they could be arrested by the Transkei Police and be locked up.

MR WESSELS: As I understood your evidence Colonel, the presence of the Transkei Policemen would be because the Askaris would not have any powers of arrest and that is why you would need the Transkei Policemen to be there to effect an arrest, is that the position?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: But now, if it was a covert operation, if the intention and the direction or the instruction was to seek and kill, in other words a totally covert operation, then you would not have needed the presence of the Transkei Police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR WESSELS: So judging from the de facto situation here, when Dandala was in fact brought into this operation, would you agree that viewed from your point, with your experience, that this operation has the hallmark of a non-covert operation, in other words, it fits in with an operation where the sole intention was to seek and arrest?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.  I just want to bring this into context, covert operations.  If I send somebody in private clothing, to buy some dagga from somebody on the corner for me, that would be a covert operation.
	In this case the Askaris moved as a covert group for the Security Police, for the purpose of arrest.  It wouldn't be a dirty operation, or a dirty trick if one had to call it that.

MR WESSELS: But the emphasis really Colonel, lies therein that the presence of Dandala would seem to swing the probabilities to this operation being a non-covert operation in the sense that it was not an operation where the sole intention was to seek and kill, but it was rather then an operation to seek and arrest?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.  It would have been a seek and arrest, however if it would be necessary, it was within their power to use their weapons in order to achieve an arrest.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wessels.  I understand Mr Majokweni, that you have no questions.

MR MAJOKWENI: That is correct.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJOKWENI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr De Kock, you gave us briefly your history and I took it that you said you were appointed Commander of Vlakplaas in 1985?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Which month?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: July, the 1st of July.

MR SIBANYONI: And when the incident, the arrest or abduction of Batandwa took place, you were already the Commander?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Isn't it so that as a Commander you would be informed about everything on the ground before it took place, in other words if there should be an operation, if there should be a person who should be arrested outside South Africa, I take it that maybe that should be known to you first?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, not necessarily.  The action was not launched with the objective of achieving anything unlawful or covert, in the line that somebody had to be killed.
	The Unit, when they left Vlakplaas, and this was of application to all the Units, would report to the Head of the Security Division and would then fall beneath that person's command for discipline and control.
	Thus, I would not receive ten phone calls from ten groups which would say, okay, we are going to make an arrest now.  The communications systems which I tried to maintain, were as efficient as possible.  The death of this person was not foreseen, as far as I know, and it was not a planned shooting operation, not from Vlakplaas members.
	If there was another agenda, I would not be able to comment on that.

MR SIBANYONI: This question I am going to ask you, I did ask Mr Tshabalala, I would like to have your response to it.
	Ndondo was a citizen of Transkei, which was an independent State at that time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And if he was arrested for having undergone training in Lesotho, coming back to Transkei, I take it the court, the proper court where he was supposed to be arraigned, was supposed to be Transkei.  Now, we understand that he was supposed to be arrested and brought to South Africa, where was he going to be charged and tried?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, that is a question that I would like to pose as well, but I would like to pose that question to Mr Naude.
	They must have had a specific reason for wanting Ndondo there.  Captain Morse and the others were specifically referred to Ndondo and there would have been a definite reason for wanting him in the Republic.
	I will concede, that is a question for which I am also seeking an answer.

MR SIBANYONI: I heard you talking about Shoza, you were referring to Shosha I suppose, the female Askari who was in the kombi?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, you testified that according to your information, Norma Shosha shot the deceased?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who provided, can you recall, who provided you with that information?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: My recollection is that it was Lieutenant Adamson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You have heard the Inspector Dandala and Mr Tshabalala say that Norma Shosha never left the kombi, she remained in the kombi.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If the deceased was indeed shot by Tshabalala and Captain Morse and Inspector Dandala, why would you be told that it was Norma Shosha who shot the deceased?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, perhaps just to explain, during the incident in which the deceased's legs were grabbed, inside the minibus when it appeared that he was going to fall out, she then shot him in the leg with her 32.  I am just mentioning this for the sake of thoroughness, for in case there is another witness later.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  But were you told who shot and killed the deceased?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I was told that he was shot on a continuous basis until he fell.  There was nothing like a coup de grace.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Did Captain Morse give you any report as to what had happened in the Transkei?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, surrounding the shooting and in the basic line as I have also given it to you here.  He did not mention the shot which Shosha fired.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: And he also didn't mention anything about cover ups.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  He merely told you that he and Dandala and Tshabalala had shot at the deceased who was running away?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary to give Tshabalala another identity?