Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

UNKNOWN: Belief in witchcraft is not something new.  Even before 1989 we did have belief in witchcraft here but what was different was the treating of the suspects.  In the past you would be given the whole opportunity, if you were really cleared you were never killed, but with the present youngsters once they say A is a witch, that was it, they're going to kill you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  I'm referring to the previous statement which you agreed with that persons are killed as witches or people are actually killed because they were political informers or state informers, under the veil of witchcraft.  I am referring to that statement which you previously agreed with.

UNKNOWN: I think I was not understood.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Perhaps what I'm asking of you, perhaps I can put it more bluntly, are you saying that the youths at one stage had taken over that role of pointing out witches, for whatever reason now, it doesn't matter, we'll come to that just now.  So instead of going to a traditional healer who points someone as a witch, the youths have taken over that role?

UNKNOWN: I said quite clearly that the youth took control of tribal courts, so the chief were rendered useless.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) before 1989, if there was a rumour or an accusation that Mr A or Mrs A would be a witch, they would be given the opportunity to prove or to obtain evidence that they are not witches and that would be afforded through the chief to a big Sangoma but after 1989 the youth themselves decided straight away whether he's a witch or not a witch.

UNKNOWN: I'll answer this way, I said earlier that before that date, since the chiefs had accepted this Anti Witchcraft Act the people who were annoyed, or perhaps angry that their son was dead they will go to the ...(indistinct) village, no we are no longer allowed to try such cases, please don't come to me.  Where do you go to because you are supposed to sort of reconcile us says "Makuhabatendi" (whites don't want that) - white people don't want this.  So now the case will just remain hanging.  So when this crisis started chiefs were then now settling all scores.  We have been coming to your own place to say - "please listen to us.  You never listen.  Now who will make you listen" ...(indistinct)

MR VAN RENSBURG: Professor, is it your evidence that round about 1990 the youths of this area killed people for political motives and then masked it to be witchcraft murders?

UNKNOWN: They didn't just that say we are killing people openly, it's only when you analyse it, you will find that the reason behind was to have a new order.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, and that was the youth that had actually driven that decision to cancel the old order and to replace it with something?

UNKNOWN: And the same that whenever they are attacking people they would be singing Viva, Viva.  They'll be singing national songs.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  Now I refer you to page 15 of your report under the heading of Questions and Answers and the question that you have written down there is,
"Why does a group of people participate in the killings?"
and the answer is as follows,
"According to the perception of the youth they are protecting the community, as traditional or tribal courts are no longer allowed to try people accused of practising witchcraft, for example at Mabitsela a young high school student said that ever since they killed people causing lightening, nobody has been struck by lightening and at Park Hotel, Potgietersrust a young steward when asked whether it was right to kill witches answered as follows : What do you do when you have cockroaches in the house?  You kill them."
Now my question Professor is, shouldn't you have included your theory that the youth was actually trying to change the system for political reasons under this specific question, or the answer to the question?

UNKNOWN: It was not as easy as all that.  I personally put that question to a boy at Park Hotel.  Did you believe in witchcraft?  In answering me he said "Well, if you've got a cockroach in the house, what do you do?  You must kill it."

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we have read that statement.

UNKNOWN: Okay right.  We asked him further, "What do you mean by cockroach?"  "I mean this thing that are just found in dirty rooms and so on."  " Are you saying that your parents and chiefs are now dirty?"  He said "No, but they represent what is no longer acceptable."

MR VAN RENSBURG: The point I am trying to make is that, and we must realise that we are dealing here today with a case exactly where a whole group of people, I think there was about 300 of them, participated in the killing of the victim of this hearing and if I read that answer to your question, it does not refer to the breaking down of an old order or anything like that for political motives.  What I read here in your answer which can be made applicable on the case in casu is that the youths actually acted to uphold the traditional values.

UNKNOWN: I said earlier that these boys, when attacking their own victims or when killing people, they did so singing national political songs, they were not singing traditional songs.  So if they were singing the old songs, they wanted us to go back to the old days, but instead they were saying, singing those songs which were favoured, those songs which were created by the nationalist movements.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, let's talk about that liberation song theory of yours.  Somewhere in your report here I've read that at one of your case studies, perhaps you can quote it better than myself, at one of the killings, the people were singing a certain son with the name of Hogo, now isn't Hogo a traditional song associated with young boys adhering their initiation rituals and used by those boys.

UNKNOWN: I'll give you a nice reason.  Hogo is something new among the Venda people, it is not an old Venda practice.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And Hogo, you agree with me, it means defeat?

UNKNOWN: No, this is sort of, Hogo is in fact an inspirational song, when you are going to do your own thing, if you are going to fight, if they are going to that school, they will sing that song.  But I want to stress this, Hogo is new among the Venda people, so I cannot stress that they wanted to go back to the olden days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  The point I am trying to make is that if you're referring to liberation songs that they are singing during these killings for whatever purpose, is it not merely a case in many circumstances, where traditional songs have become liberation songs?

UNKNOWN: Let me help you here.  I stressed one thing from the start, we should not generalise.  I did not say every killing was for political reasons.  I'm only here to come and sort of explain the conditions, situations during those days of killing, but I am not saying that every killing was done for political reasons. It is up to you to go to each case and see was each case indeed a result of that.  I cannot honestly generalise.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see.  You testified that traditionally it was a severe punishment, one of the most sever punishments, for a person accused of being a witch, that he be expelled from that specific area and that he must go and live somewhere else.

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If such a person would refuse to leave, what do you think traditionally would have happened to him?

UNKNOWN: He could never refuse to leave the area.  The chief was the boss in the area.  There was no question of Pretoria Supreme Court.  There was no question of Bloemfontein.  The chief was the most upper chap, so once he said out, you were out.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, but if the chief for instance does not agree with that ruling and says the man must not go whilst the community still feels that he should go, what should happen to such a person?