Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I think many people have been sentenced all over the world in the past where the body has not been discovered.  Certainly that is a very, very substantial point but I think that should be asked to the Attorney General because I think we all know exactly how the system works.
 When you submit a case docket to an Attorney General, that person has the final authority to make a decision on that docket and that was really what's on the docket and out of discussions - as I received information from the investigators, between themselves and that specific Attorney General.

MR RICHARD: But you'd agree with me that the mere absence of the body is not an adequate explanation for a decision not to prosecute?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I'm in agreement.

MR RICHARD: And secondly, somebody could have been - evidence has been led at these hearings regarding an allegation that Mrs Mandela was seen in the presence of Lolo Sono in a Kombi on approximately the 13th of November 1988 when Mr Lolo Sono was in an assaulted condition and that despite the protestations of Mr Nikodemus Sono, Mrs Winnie Mandela refused to allow Mr Lolo Sono to leave the Kombi and return home - return to the custody of his father.
 It therefore appears to me that Winnie Mandela could perhaps be charged on this allegation for kidnapping which amounts to the unlawful and intentional depravation of someone's liberty.   So, do you think that the Attorney General's decision not to prosecute Winnie Mandela - given those circumstances, is a good one?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, exactly what has been said was conveyed to me by the parents of Lolo Sono in my office.  As I've indicated, I directed the Detective Branch to reopen the case, to have a fresh look at all the available evidence and to attend to all the alleged loose ends.
 Afterwards, the docket was once again taken to the Attorney General and the investigators explained to the Attorney General exactly why it was reopened on the direction of the National Commissioner together with the whole history and once again the Attorney General declined to prosecute. 
 In the documentation received from the Attorney General, it's quite clear that they don't have sufficient evidence in the police docket to prosecute any person or to lodge a criminal charge against a specific person.  So, normal practice is really that you have to respect that decision of the Attorney General.  You can't - as a police officer, you can't do anything about it and that is the point.

MR RICHARD: In the light of Gerry Richardson's Amnesty Application in which he will say - I understand that he was responsible at least for the disposal of the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala under the directions of Mrs Mandela, don't you think it's important that that docket be re-submitted to the Attorney General or reopened for further and better investigation?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, certainly the basis of reopening and re-submitting a police docket to an Attorney General will be on the basis of new evidence.  If we have any new evidence, then of course it makes out a proper case to reopen and re-submit the case docket.

MR RICHARD: The problem as far as I'm aware, is of course that the docket in respect of this incident has gone missing - I speak subject to correction, my information I think comes from the TRC.

MR PIGOU: Perhaps I could just clarify here.  In conversations with Superintendent H T Moodley, he indicated to me that he couldn't remember exactly where the docket was but he thought the last time he had seen it was when he handed it to the Attorney General.
 The Chief Investigator of the TRC in Johannesburg told me that he contacted Attorney General de Vries in relation to this and they didn't have - that office responded, they did not have the docket.  There is some concern on our side that we've been unable to locate that docket but perhaps Superintendent Moodley will be able to help us on that.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, I think that's a matter of concern and we have to follow it up from the side of the police service as well because somewhere in the channel we have to find the police docket, it must be available somewhere.

MR RICHARD: So I'm sure that the police service will take earnest steps to find out where that docket is - I think there may well be two dockets, one for Mr Sono and one for Mr Shabalala, and then to look into the question of reopening the investigation given the new evidence that's become available through Mr Richardson.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson yes, we'll do that.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Sir.  Sorry, one more point, I just wanted to communicate my clients appreciation to you for seeing them in Cape Town in 1995 and taking the trouble to see the matter being reopened and investigated, thank you.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cades?

MR KADES: Thank you.  Commissioner Fivaz, Cades on behalf of the Asvat family.  Investigations were reopened in the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat as a result of representations made to you by Mr Tony Leon MP.  Were you also influenced by the fact that the current Minister Sydney Mufamadi, had also requested a reopening and a re-investigation of this matter?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, I think there were a number of issues which convinced me that we have to look afresh at the total investigation.  There were reports in the media, some very unsubstantiated and of course there was a concern from the side of the Minister, at one stage we discussed it and there were telephonic conversations between myself and Mr Leon prior to our meeting with the parents of Lono Sono in my office.
 So, there was a build-up of requests really to reopen and that is why I've decided with Mr Tony Leon to see his clients - he brought the people to my office, and I listened to them and I thought we have to convince at least that we are following up every possible lead and that is really why I decided to reopen.

MR KADES: Well Commissioner, one of those leads was Mrs Madikezela Mandela herself wasn't it?  Because insofar as the murder of Doctor Asvat was concerned, fingers were being - rightly or wrongly, fingers were being pointed at her - in her direction, isn't that so?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: That's correct.

MR KADES: Do you know whether your offices - did you direct your offices ever to take a statement from her concerning what information she had concerning the murder of Doctor Asvat?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I never directed my offices to do it.  Once again Chairperson, an investigation is not conducted under the auspices of the National Commissioner, there is a very specific structure - normally we'll investigate with the assistance of the Attorney General.   I never directed them myself but certainly that should have been one of the options.

MR KADES: Absolutely.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: That should have been one of the options and certainly experienced investigators like in this case, would have considered that option so I think that question should be posed to them.

MR KADES: I'm aware of that and I'm aware of the fact that you're being asked so many questions about which you have no information at all, having not been involved yourself.  Do you know whether any of your investigators in fact did approach Mrs Madikezela Mandela requesting a statement from her concerning the murder of Doctor Asvat?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I'm not sure about that one, I'm certainly not aware of a report back to me that that specific meeting took place or that there were attempts from the side of the investigators that were not reported to me.