Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes I knew it was in our house, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that the only gun that you had or the only firearm that you had in your house?

MAUREEN VENTER: No, we also had licensed firearms in our house.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many?

MAUREEN VENTER: My husband had two licensed firearms at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: What sort of arms did he have?

MAUREEN VENTER: No sir, I'm not an expert on weapons, I'm not interested in weapons, I've never handled a weapon, it's not important for me which kinds of weapons they were.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were they pistols or rifles?

MAUREEN VENTER: No sir, I can't say.  I just explained, I'm not an expert on weapons.

JUDGE WILSON: Rather than pistols, which may be technical, were they handguns?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes they were handguns.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your husband had two licensed handguns, did you never ask him why he was putting himself in danger or breaking the law by having yet another unlicensed handgun?

MAUREEN VENTER: I knew that it was not according to the law and I knew that my husband had that firearm.  I knew that the weapon had been given to my husband.  I trusted my husband, I relied on my husband and it was of no relevance for me, I did not question him about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you for the first time learn that Mr Derby-Lewis was interested in that unlicensed firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: The first time I heard about that was on Wednesday the 10th April - no the 10th March 1993.

GEORGE BIZOS: 10th of March, yes and what did you hear about it?

MAUREEN VENTER: My husband told me that he had discussions with Clive Derby-Lewis and that Clive Derby-Lewis had told him that they were busy to store weapons, to gather weapons for problems which could arise in our country.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who were the "they" that were gathering firearms for the problems in our country?

MAUREEN VENTER: I would think - I did not question him - but because I knew Mr Derby-Lewis was involved in the Conservative Party I accepted it like that but nobody explained it to me like that, but I did not query him about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: When were you first asked to give evidence in relation to this application?

MAUREEN VENTER: Is this regarding today's hearings?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MAUREEN VENTER: It was yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you asked before yesterday that there was a possibility that you may be called upon to give evidence?

MAUREEN VENTER: No, no mention had been made at any other stage that I would be called to give any evidence.  I was not aware that this hearing was going to continue today.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you were only asked to cast your mind back on when that day was that this conversation was between your husband and yourself in relation to Mr Derby-Lewis' requirements was yesterday?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was your husband also approached yesterday for the first time?

MAUREEN VENTER: No, my husband had not been approached.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did your husband not tell you that he had come all the way to Mamelodi to give evidence about this matter?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes, I know about that but that was a long while ago, it was not yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes and did he ask you when he came back or did you ask him what he was questioned about?

MAUREEN VENTER: I did not ask him pertinent questions, we discussed this matter and he told me more or less what it was all about.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you actually knew all the time before this tea party and apple pie on the Saturday morning that Mr Derby-Lewis was interested in an unlicensed firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: I don't understand what you mean by saying "you've known all the time" I don't know what you're referring to, please put it clearly.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew from the morning that you got the telephone - or prior to the morning that you got a telephone call that Mr Hani was murdered - you knew that Mr Derby-Lewis was interested in an unlicensed firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew that from the 10th March?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did nobody at all ever ask you before yesterday to speak about this unlicensed firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: I had no idea that they would call me - at no stage I was involved in anything, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, weren't you called upon to make a statement to the police or to anyone like that?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: You never made a statement to the police?

MAUREEN VENTER: No, I've never made a statement to anybody at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are Maureen Venter are you not.

MAUREEN VENTER: I am Maureen Venter.

GEORGE BIZOS: I would like you to please look at the third page of the document which I am now showing you.  Just don't worry about the rest of it - just look at the third page and please tell us whether that is your signature or not?

MR PRINSLOO: Can we get a copy of this document please?

GEORGE BIZOS: The simple question is - is that your signature or not?

MAUREEN VENTER: The top signature is mine.

GEORGE BIZOS: Copies will made during the course of the adjournment, Mr Chairman, we did not know until a few minutes before the proceeding commenced that this witness would be called.  Now, if I were to put to you that you were - a statement was taken from you on the 22nd April 1993 by Sergeant, it looks like P or F.S. van der Walt, what would you say to that?

MAUREEN VENTER: Then I have to say that at this stage I can't remember what statement I had made and what it's relevance was.  Can I ask you to tell me what this statement was about?

GEORGE BIZOS: I will tell you in good time, be a little patient with me please.

MAUREEN VENTER: Then I will know what I have to respond to.  At that stage I have to say honestly, I can't remember I have made a statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, do you remember whether any police officer asked you anything relating to Mr Hani's death?

MAUREEN VENTER: I can remember at various instances and I think they bothered me a lot, every half an hour they knocked at my door because they wanted statements and I told them I can't give you any statements because I don't know anything.  That is what I told them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, whether you're not interested to know, from you, whether or not you were with Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis on the very morning on which the late Mr Chris Hani was murdered.

MAUREEN VENTER: Did you ask a question?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, you want me to repeat it?

MAUREEN VENTER: Please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did the police want to know from you whether you were in the company of Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis on the morning on which Mr Hani was murdered?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes, they wanted to know that from me and I told them and at no stage I told them anything else.  I told them that Mr and Mrs Clive Derby-Lewis was at my home that morning when that had happened.  They've asked me that and I've told them yes, they were at my house.  I had no reason to give them any other information because they had been there.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you knew that your husband had given an unlicensed firearm to Mr Derby-Lewis?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes, I knew about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did the police tell you that they knew that your husband had given an unlicensed firearm to Mr Derby-Lewis?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes they told me that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they ask you whether you knew anything about this gun?

MAUREEN VENTER: It's possible that they could have asked that, yes and I would have answered yes then.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, try and be a little bit more specific.  Do you remember whether or not one or other police officer asked you whether you knew anything about this gun?

MAUREEN VENTER: If I have to be very specific I have to tell you in all honesty I can't be specific because they've asked me many questions at that stage and unfortunately I did not take any notes.  I did not keep a diary.