Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you related to Sebenzile Ndabeni?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, we are related.  He grew up in my own at the other house but at that time he was staying at his home.

DR TSOTSI: Where is your home, or where was your home?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: In Port St Johns in the Transkei.

DR TSOTSI: And Nozulu, where was his home?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I'm not sure, others said he was from Nxeleni.  I tried to investigate but I couldn't find out.  Others said he was from Xholo, so I'm not sure exactly where he was from.

DR TSOTSI: What happened to him, where is he now?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I don't know where he is now.  Joe is the one who came to us.  I last heard that he was in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
	In the Court record there is a mention of your conspiracy to rob a certain farmer, do you know anything about this incident?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: No, I heard this in Court, I didn't know about this because we were on our way to Natal.  I didn't know about this, and the person who was testifying said he didn't know.

MR MHLABA: Do you have anything to add in support of your application?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I would like to say to the South Africans, I ask for forgiveness and I ask for forgiveness to the families of the police who died and to the people who were with us, I would like to ask for forgiveness to their families and to the families of the police and the families of the deceased that were with us and South Africa at large..

MR MHLABA: That concludes the evidence-in-chief, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba.  Do you have any questions to ask the witness, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.
	Mr Ndabeni, you were the driver of the motor vehicle?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Whose motor vehicle was it?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: It was my car.

MR MAPOMA: Now before the shooting took place, were you ever stopped by the police on the way?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: No, we were never stopped.

MR MAPOMA: Did the police ever ask to search you?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: No, the police only stopped us during that shooting, on our way they didn't stop us.

MR MAPOMA: Now is it not correct that the police, when they arrived the car was already stationery?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: When the police arrived I was just finished putting the new number plates.  We were then going to be on our way.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, when the police arrived was your vehicle still stationery, you weren't driving?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I was driving.

MR MAPOMA: No what I'm saying is, at the time when the police arrived you say you had just finished replacing the numberplates, was the car not stationery at the time when the police arrived?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: When the police arrived I saw them coming towards us and when they were near us I was leaving.  They then stopped the car when I was leaving.

MR MAPOMA: Did they ever ask to search your car?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: We didn't understand each other because when I was trying to reply they pointed us with the firearms.  I lifted my arms at that time, both of my arms.  I didn't understand what they were saying.  They then started shooting.

MR MAPOMA: And then your colleagues shot back?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, they shot back.

MR MAPOMA: Did you yourself shoot?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: No, I didn't, I was the driver.  I didn't have a firearm at that time.

MR MAPOMA: And they shot back because they didn't want the police to get hold of the weapons, is that not the case?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, that is correct, they didn't want the police to get hold of the firearms and get information.

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Fokazi was not there at the time, was he?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, he was not there.

MR MAPOMA: I'm asking these questions because - Chairperson, I'm sorry, perhaps this question may not be proper but unfortunately I missed this to canvass with Mr Fokazi.  In page 8 and page number 11 of the paginated bundle there is correspondence where Mr Fokazi says, on page 8, paragraph 2
"On our way to Bethlehem we were confronted by police who stopped us to search us.  We then opened fire on them as a result of this."
Then on page 11, on the 1st paragraph there on that page he goes on to say:
"On our way we were stopped by the police who demanded to search our car and we refused to be searched since this was clearly an obstruction of our objective."
These two, Chairperson, to a certain extent may, I would like to get ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can put it to you him and ask him what his comments are on that.

MR MAPOMA: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Ndabeni, you have just heard what I've read in this bundle, these are the statements which were made by Mr Fokazi.  Would you make a comment on these statements?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Fokazi was explaining about the shooting of the police.  He was not there, I was there.  He was not there at that time.  When we were confronted by the police he was not there.

MR MAPOMA: So what do you say about the correctness of this statement which was made by Mr Fokazi?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: What I'm saying is that this is not correct because I didn't understand what the police said to us ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying is because you didn't understand, I think isn't it as far as you can go is to say they may not be correct because the policemen might have spoken in Afrikaans saying: "Stop I want to search your vehicle", but you didn't understand that?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, I didn't understand, I just assumed that maybe they wanted to search us.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson, that was all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any re-examination?

MR MHLABA: None, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, just one question.
	You said you stayed in the dam for two days, where exactly in the dam?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I went next to the dam and I took grass too and I placed in on my face so that they could not see me.

MR SIBANYONI: That's the only question, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You said, Mr Ndabeni, that when the police arrived your vehicle stopped, you stopped and they got out, you spoke to each other but couldn't understand each other, the police then pointed firearms at you and you raised your hands, is that correct?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: That is correct, I was the person who got out of the car, they others I left them behind.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you said that the police, after you raised your hand the police started to shoot, did they shoot at you or towards you?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, they were shooting towards me but they didn't shoot me, I don't know how that happened.  They shot a person who was in the bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why the police should shoot at you if you were standing there with your hands in the air?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: There's no reason.  I think that they saw what was happening at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reason for changing number plates?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: The reason was that when we had weapons in our possession we would use the wrong numberplates in our cars.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you have the correct number plates on until that time that Joe said you should change them?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, we took out the right numberplates and we replaced them with the wrong ones.