Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: Eventually the people started arriving at Alldays, correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Did you receive instructions there?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Chairperson, yes.  After the bodies were photographed, and the ammunition was photographed, I was appointed as the Investigating Officer in a conversation between Dreyer and Erwee.

ADV VISSER: How long had you been attached to the Security Branch in the Far Northern Region at that stage?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: At the end of 1985, it was after Christmas, round about the 27th of December, 1985 I arrived in Louis Trichardt and I spent about three, three and a half months there and then I went on an Officers' course and came back from the Officers' course on the 4th of July.

ADV VISSER: 1986?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: 1986, and it was only on the 7th of July that I started working again and on the 10th of July this incident happened.

ADV VISSER: Had you already said that you were appointed as the Investigating Officer?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: Can you tell the members exactly what you did.  When you were appointed, was there a specific instruction given to you as to how you should complete your task?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: Who gave you the instructions?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Captain Erwee and Lieutenant Dreyer.

ADV VISSER: What did they tell you?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That due to the circumstances of this particular case, the protection of the policeman and the informer was important.  It was also important to protect the information networks as well as the modus operandi of the Security Police and the shallow border or cross border operations and Intelligence gathering, and all these things should be protected.
	And that we should keep the statements as short as possible.  That we should omit certain facts from the statements which could possibly harm these people and that was basically that.

ADV VISSER: In brief, you were told to only put the bare minimum which was necessary for the inquest into this statement?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: You tried to identify the deceased, is that correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: We have already heard from Mr Dreyer that the identity books found on these bodies, were no aid in identifying these people?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: The ID books, apart from the photographs, the names and ID numbers were of no value.  The particulars sent to Home Affairs and other bodies, led to no further clues.

ADV VISSER: In other words it was incorrect, this information?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: And the finger prints in the ID books?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No, they also similarly had no value.

ADV VISSER: And you were able to positively identify three people?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And that was on the basis of finger prints?  Now, today you were shown certain photographs.  No, it was not you, it was Mr Fuchs.  However, what happened to the persons who were identified, as to the bodies?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: The families of the identified people came to fetch them in Louis Trichardt.

ADV VISSER: And those who weren't identified, what happened to them?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: After attempts were made to identify them, and these attempts were unsuccessful, they were buried as pauper in Louis Trichardt in the cemetery.

ADV VISSER: Do you know what the procedure is for the burial of a pauper in a municipal cemetery?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.  If I am correct, then an order must be obtained from the Magistrate for the burial of these people.

ADV VISSER: So their would have been a record of that?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: In the process of completing your documentation for purposes of the inquest, did you receive a sworn statement from Mr Erwee?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And you also made a sworn statement which was attested by Mr Dreyer, is that correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: In your sworn statement, the facts set out there are they all strictly correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.

ADV VISSER: In what respect is your statement not correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Chairperson, I did not transport the bodies from the scene to Alldays.

ADV VISSER: According to you, who would you guess was the person who would have done so?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I really don't know.

ADV VISSER: You are also requesting amnesty for any contravention of offence which you  might have committed in that respect?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: If I could take you back before the incident took place, are you aware of any orders as to what should be done with the passengers?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Could you tell us?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: The evening at Alldays there wasn't much talk on this issue, about the planning, but the morning of the incident it was made very clear to us that we should arrest these people.

ADV VISSER: At all costs?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: At all costs.

ADV VISSER: That that was what it was about, the arrest of these people?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: And it was also said to us that should problems arise and if a confrontation arises, we shouldn't endanger our own lives.

ADV VISSER: When you got upright and you started shooting, the question could arise, why did you start shooting at that moment?  What were your reasons?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Shots came from the direction of the combi and I personally felt threatened, my life was in danger, I was being shot at.
	My colleagues' lives were in danger and that is why I fired.

ADV VISSER: As a policeman what were your instruction in situations where you were under fire?  How were you told to respond?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: In our training, we are told or trained to handle such a confrontation in such a way that I should answer the fire with fire until there was no resistance left.  All resistance should be eliminated.

ADV VISSER: So you should deliver maximum fire power until all resistance is eliminated?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts, are you aware of what happened to all the weapons that were found at the combi?  What happened to it?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: It was taken to Louis Trichardt, to the Security Branch and I didn't deal with it after that.

ADV VISSER: I don't have any further questions.

ADV VISSER: .

MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR ROSSOUW: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes, sir, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Swarts, at Alldays you say that you were then appointed the Investigating Officer?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BLACK: And to use a general word, it was in fact to try and cover up certain facts from being publicly known?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Could you repeat the question please?

MR BLACK: First of all you agree that it is rather unusual to appoint a person who participated in the incident to be the Investigating Officer?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No, at that stage I didn't think that it was abnormal.

MR BLACK: That you had to investigate an incident in which you personally also took part in?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Was this a normal practice amongst the Security Forces?