Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MR LOWIES: On your own version further there were adults in the house, residing there at the time of the attack, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know these people.  Maybe they were staying there without me knowing.

MR LOWIES: I don't want to argue with you, Sir, just please listen to the question.  Is it not so that there was a chap that was 37 years of age residing with you?  Please.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know now.  I don't know what you are saying now.  Are you saying other people, one of them is 37 years?  I don't know these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, I think what he's referring to, he's referring to members of your family.  He says that at the time of the attack there were members of your family  who were adults.  He says one of your members of your family was approximately 37 years at the time.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: My children?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, he should say that.  Maybe he's not in the position to say that.  Look I cannot just answer when he's talking about people, I have children you know.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereby people ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I do have a child of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, by people in your house he's referring to your family, the children.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they are my children.

MR LOWIES: Now who is Mando?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Mando.  Mando is my daughter.

MR LOWIES: Were there any grown-up men in the house, residing there at the time of the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Who were they?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said Pitso is a police, he is one of the police that are using these Koyokos, another one is Silo. These are males, and his nickname is Dodudu.

CHAIRPERSON: Dodulo?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Dodudu.

MR LOWIES: What is the age of Pitso?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would not say, I would have to ask my wife.  I cannot state.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these ages not given to us yesterday?

MR LOWIES: I haven't got that age.

CHAIRPERSON: Were we not given those ages?

MR LOWIES: Sorry, Chair, he didn't mention ages as far as my note reads, of these two.  He did mention ages of other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Of Howard, Ugabe, Cleopatra and Mando.  Yes, very well.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Pitso is an adult.  He has his own family now.  He stays in Zone 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I think he says he's going to ask his wife to get the correct ages.

MR LOWIES: But he was a grown-up person?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So was Silo.  You can't tell us his age can you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Silo is still young and he's a grown-up now.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is older between Silo and Mando?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Mando.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR LAX: Can I just ask this, is Silo older than Howard?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Very much so, far much older.  Howard is still young, he's about 17.

MR LAX: That's all I was trying to ascertain.

MR LOWIES: Were they there the night of the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The one who is a police was at work.  Silo was in the house.

MR LOWIES: When you were watching TV, did you do so in the dark or was the light on?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, the lights were off.

MR LOWIES: Was everybody watching television or just yourself?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Not everyone.  People were watching television with me but everyone, each one of us left for our bedrooms as we pleased.

MR LOWIES: To go and sleep?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Who went to sleep, who left for their bedrooms?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would not say.  You see my house is big, sometimes they would just stay there in their bedrooms and sometimes they would sleep.  I do not follow them around you know.

MR LOWIES: The reason why I'm asking you is because in your evidence-in-chief you said you instructed everybody to stay up because you thought the attack was imminent.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was the one who was watching all the time.  I am the man you see, in the family.

MR LOWIES: Now but Sir, you must listen to the question.  The question is, on your version now it seems that some of them went to the bedroom to go and sleep, yet in-chief you said the situation was as follows;  you expected an attack and you told everybody to stay up.  What is the truth?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is true, I had told them so, not to go to sleep.  But I would not say whether they were asleep when they went to their bedrooms or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I was left with the impression - it may be wrong, but I was left with the impression that what was conveyed to other family members is that you've got to be on the alert because there is an attack which is imminent.  And I think as I recall his evidence he was left watching TV with Silo, if I'm not mistaken.

MR LOWIES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I hear what you say.  I also had it that there were actually two incidents, but I'll canvass it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, but do canvass that.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is relevant.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chair.  Now you see, Mr Baloyi, when Father Patrick phoned you he was not sure whether an attack was going to be launched at Boipatong, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying that when somebody tells you something I would not say whether ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question, we'll move faster.  If you'll just answer the question.  What he is saying is that when the Father conveyed the message to you he was not sure whether the attack was going to be on Boipatong.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct, because he spoke about two places.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: Did you do anything as a result of this phone call?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I then informed my family that we might be attacked and I kept watch over my son and told them that they must lock the doors and keep them locked.

MR LOWIES: Now did you also phone the police?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did and I spoke to one police person at the police station.

MR LOWIES: What did you tell him?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I told the police that rumour has it that we are going to be attacked and he said there's nothing he could do, I should phone Sebokeng.  I said I cannot waste my money and phone Sebokeng.  "If you don't want to phone Sebokeng, that's not my problem".

MR LOWIES: Now which police station did you phone?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Vanderbijlpark.

MR LOWIES: Did you also get in contact with the comrades?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Very much so.  We were working together.

MR LOWIES: That night?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't roam the streets, not even people like Madala - I mean the older ones.  The older ones do not roam the streets.

MR LAX: Sorry, I just can't get this clearly in my headset.  I'm not sure what - what exactly is your answer?  Maybe you can just repeat it again.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying I did not spend my time with them in the streets.  They were younger.  They are the ones who had the responsibility of guarding the streets and we older ones remained behind at home.

MR LOWIES: But my question is, did you seek protection from them on that night?

MR LAX: Sorry, your question was; did he contact them.  That was your question.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.  Now did you contact them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were in constant communication.  Each street had this constant communication with them.

MR LOWIES: Did you tell them that night that there's a possibility of an attack, after the phone call by Father Patrick?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I told some of them.

MR LOWIES: And were they around the house after you spoke to them, or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were always waiting outside.