Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

MR LOWIES: Where do you get this information from, did you supply this to Mr Kjellberg or do you say that he wrote it out of his own?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I am saying is that small guns were also present, they were there, but I cannot explain just what type they were.

MR LOWIES: You would never have supplied the name 38 Special to him, or 38 Special?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, it must follow mustn't it, if the man says I don't know what a 38 Special is?

MR LOWIES: I withdraw the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you've got to be able to distinguish between matters that are for argument and matters that you can canvass with the witness.  Because otherwise if you are going to begin to argue with the witness, you are going to take a lot of time.  You can only canvass facts with the witness, once a man has said I don't know what a 38 Special is, that is the end of the matter.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair, I take cognisance.  Mr Nosenga, at that stage, were there already traditional weapons in the stadium or not, or did the people have to go and fetch them after that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The people who had spears, brought them into the stadium when the siren was sounded.  The people did bring traditional weapons into the stadium, it was only firearms that were put in a pile and people were asked to choose from that pile.

MR LOWIES: But how would they know to bring their weapons with when there was only a signal at six o'clock?   I mean how did they know that this was going to be the time to bring weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, we went into the stadium and we were told that the day had arrived to attack Boipatong.  Darkie Chonco brought the firearms and the other residents of the hostel brought their own traditional weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: When the siren went off, did people on their own, go to the stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, when the siren was sounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Has this been interpreted to you, what I have just said?  Has this been interpreted to you, what I have just said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard what you have just said.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear the interpretation of what I have just said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  He is asking me on how people knew that they should bring their weapons to the stadium, and I am explaining that when the siren was sounded, people went into the stadium and they were told that the day had arrived and then they went to fetch their weapons from their rooms.

CHAIRPERSON: So people first went to the stadium and that is where they were told that the day has arrived for the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then they went back to fetch their spears?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Weapons like spears and axes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, during the tea adjournment, you were in the presence of your legal representative here at the back and she was reading the statement to you in English, without assistance of an Interpreter.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true.  How can she read English to me, because I am uneducated.

MR LOWIES: Well in Afrikaans, the question is there is no Interpreter, do you agree with that?  She read a statement to you, whether it is Afrikaans or English, but in the absence of an Interpreter?

MS TANZER: Chairman, if I may, he barely understood what I was reading, I barely understood what I was reading, it was all in Afrikaans.

MR LAX: Sorry, I don't understand what is going on here.  Who said anything about Afrikaans, I haven't heard anything on the record about Afrikaans at all.  What is going on?

MR LOWIES: Chair, no I just want to make a point, this witness understands Afrikaans and English because I saw that his legal representative read stuff to him in Afrikaans or English, one of the languages.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you are adamant you can take the oath and come and give evidence to that effect.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.  Do you deny that you understand Afrikaans?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not understand it well.  There were some parts where I did not understand her.

MR LOWIES: So if she reads a statement to you in Afrikaans, you would understand certain portions of it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, I don't understand that language, but she was reading the statement and there were parts that I did not understand.

MR LOWIES: Were there parts that you did understand?

CHAIRPERSON: If there were parts that he could not understand, does it not necessarily follow that there were parts that he could have understood?

MR LOWIES: I retract the question.  Do you understand English?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not.

MR LOWIES: When she consults with you, does she consult with you in English?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She does speak in English and sometimes Afrikaans, but I do not understand her.

MR LOWIES: But sir, she went through Exhibit U with you, she asked you regarding Exhibit U, without the assistance of an Interpreter, whether your signature appears on certain pages of Exhibit U, correct or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, she did ask me in Afrikaans, and she was showing me the pages and the signature.

MR LOWIES: And you need to respond to her yes, this is my signature, no, this is not my signature, you could do that?  Have you got an answer?

CHAIRPERSON: ... if you don't have any other questions which are relevant to these issues, hand it over to your other colleagues.  The point has been made.  We know that he has pointed out the signature.  Whether he understood or didn't understand, we have not been told that.

MR LOWIES: I will proceed Chairman.  When you left for Boipatong on the night of the attack, did you see at that stage any Policemen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only saw those who were in the casspir, the Police who accompanied us on the attack.

MR LOWIES: According to you, who were the Policemen who accompanied you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The Police Officers that I knew were Peens, Danie, Rooikop, Chaka and some other big Police Officer who was driving, but I did not know the rest.

MR LOWIES: How would you have been able to recognise each other during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, we could.  We did have identifying marks that we used to recognise each other.

MR LOWIES: What were these marks?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We all wore red headbands and the Police were wearing copper hats when they entered Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: They were wearing, what were the Police wearing?

MR LAX: He said copper hats, that is a word for a balaclava.

MR LOWIES: Oh.  What was the colour of these headbands, only red?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were wearing red headbands.

MR LAX: The question was were you wearing only red headbands?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only saw the red headbands and we were in our private clothes.

MR LOWIES: Can you describe these headbands besides the fact that they were red?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know that they were red and we wore them around our heads.

MR LOWIES: Have you seen red headbands like these, before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR LOWIES: Have you seen red headbands like this before?  Before the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw them when we were issued with them on the night of the attack.

MR LOWIES: So it was issued to you?  By whom?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were given by Darkie Chonco, so that we could identify one another.  We would use those headbands to identify one another, so that we don't shoot one another.

MR LOWIES: You do not know where he got hold of them?  Did you see?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not  know.  I just saw him carrying them in his possession, I do not know where he got them from.

MR LOWIES: When was the decision taken to have these headbands, to wear them?