Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears from the information that that was Mr van Rooyen, who worked in Sterkspruit in the bakery.  And you've told us that was the only person you attacked on that day, do you remember that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolo told us you attacked more than one person, but you have been quite adamant that you only attacked one person on that day, and that was the man from the bakery.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question, sir?

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) you have told us about, you are quite adamant you only attacked one person, one car driven by a white.  You threw molotov cocktails on it and then you went home.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were told who to attack by you Commander?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: You were told who to attack by your Commander.  He was there in charge of the operation.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you've told us a moment ago that you, as I recollect, you say that you were just a soldier.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But on the first operation you went out on, you went out as a leader didn't you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I think that was still about the operation at Lady Grey where I was a soldier.  We have not talked about other operation.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a leader on the first operation you went out, weren't you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: As I have said that I have been involved in operations, I can't remember which operation came first and which one came second.  Can you please remind me, Mr Chairman, which one is the first operation.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you made, which has been referred to a number of times, you said it was to go and set a farm on fire, and Phila told you that you would be the leader.  You went out with petrol bombs and pangas.  Do you remember it?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.  I can't interpret.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 37, annexure "B", bottom portion of the page.  Are you showing it to him, Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you had in fact discussed this statement with him.  He is aware of the contents?

MR MTHEMBU: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you've told us about the leaders of units who you went on operations with, but who gave you general instructions as to the aims of APLA?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We used to receive instructions from Comrade Phila Pawa.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Pawa, Phila.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was higher up the train?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: By then Comrade Phila Dolo had not arrived in our unit.

CHAIRPERSON: You ...(inaudible) in you application form, page 1, paragraph 11(b), you set out the details of this.  Are you reading what you set out there?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I'm reading it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is what you set out there correct?  Were these orders issued by ...(intervention)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who then issued the orders?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It was Comrade Phila Dolo.  When he gave us these instructions we were sitting together with Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele, but the person who was giving out the instructions, the Comrade I was under, he was Comrade Phila Pawa.

CHAIRPERSON: What you say in your application is the orders were issued by Mr L Mphahlele.  That's what you say there, isn't it?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the truth?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is the truth.  Comrade Mphahlele was a High Commander.

MR MTHEMBU: Can I, sorry, Mr Chairperson.  Can I take you to the incident where the lady teachers were stopped, and I am referring you to page no 13 of the second bundle, and I just want to get a clear picture as to how they were stopped.  Because according to Mrs Booysens you people pointed firearms at them, but according to the affidavit of Mosesiwe Dlepu, I will read it ...(inaudible)
"when we're talking about that vehicle, there appeared four men hiking to our vehicle and they were hiking, coming towards our vehicle.  Mrs Booysen stopped the vehicle since the said men, they were blocking the road"
Where you all in the middle of the road, all four of you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We were not all in the road.

MR MTHEMBU: But ...(inaudible) Mr Dolo raised his right hand.  What actions did you do, what did you do the other three of you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I was standing next to him by then.

MR MTHEMBU: The other two, what did they do?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We were on one side of the road, all of us, although we were not standing in the same area.  It is me and Comrade Dolo who went to the car.  The other two were standing a bit away from the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  No, I'm sorry, one other point.  Mr Mthembu we have as you know, you've been given a copy some time ago, we've all been given copies, of the confession, it's called, that he made.  There's nothing in that that he wants to raise, is there?  I don't propose to put the whole of it to him, but if there's anything that you think ought be raised, this is your opportunity to raise it.  Various portions have been put to him.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, my instructions of that statement is that the statement was not made voluntarily as such, but it was initiated through torture and other means, but not the whole contents thereof.  Some aspects of it are indeed the truth, like for instance the personal ...(indistinct) of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: So you have no objections to the reference to it?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Just one last question, Chairperson.  The handwriting on this form, your application form, that's not your handwriting is it?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, it is not my handwriting.

MR PRIOR: Whose handwriting is it?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is Oupa Khotle's handwriting.

MR PRIOR: I thought you said you filled this form out on your own?  That was your evidence to us earlier.  No-one helped you fill it out you said.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What happened is that I was reading the story to him and he would write what I was saying.  The reason for this is that I can't write English correctly.  I can't understand English correctly, or well.  But what happened is that I was reading the story to him and he was writing what I was saying.

MR PRIOR: Are you sure that this is not Mr Mbandwa's handwriting.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: No, what?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I don't know Mbandwa.  I know only Oupa who helped me to write my story.

MR PRIOR: Mbandwa is a lawyer that went around helping people fill out their application forms.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I don't know him.

ADV SANDI: You said Oupa assisted you to complete this form.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

ADV SANDI: You were telling him what to put in the form, what to say in the form and he was writing?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: His work was only to write, it was me who was reading the story to him.  He would translate what I was saying in Sotho to English.

ADV SANDI: At the end of that exercise did the two of you go together through the statement to see if, through the application form, I'm sorry, to see if it reflected correctly what you have said to him he must write in the application form?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he read it to me, trying to explain to me what I have said to him and I agreed with him with everything and then the application was made.

ADV SANDI: I take it that even at that stage he was simply telling you what he had written in the application form, because you cannot really read English, is that correct?