Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: This is not what you are being asked.  It was just put to you now that Mtwana Zulu was not present during the attack and your response was he could not have been absent because he was the leader, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Moses Mthembu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I know the induna who used to stand guard at the gate.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see him that night of the attack in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not see him.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know what kind of clothes Mtwana was wearing that night, can you give any description?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not notice.

MR STRYDOM: So what you are saying is that Mtwana shouted the names of Dudu, Morene and Lucky and thereby announcing his presence in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know how to tell you this, I said these people used to be involved in this traditional dance together and we never thought that he was capable of doing this type of act.  We knew very well that it was him who called out to these boys, I saw him clearly.

MR STRYDOM: What I am in fact putting to you is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, what do you mean when you say we knew that no other person could have called them, other than Mtwana?  What do you mean when you say that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As he stood there when he called out to these boys, he is the one person who knew all their names.

MR STRYDOM: And according to you, he was not hiding the fact that he was in Boipatong because he shouted names of known people to him, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is what surprises me.

MR STRYDOM: And when he shouted Dudu's name, you said he must go and hide himself?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How far does - you mentioned that Mtwana's in-law's lived close to your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, the fourth house from mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mtwana Zulu known in and around your area?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Even a  young child knows him.

ADV SIGODI: Can I just clarify something?  When you saw Mtwana Zulu and when you heard him calling out to your son, was this after your house had been attacked?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was before it was attacked.  That is why I saw them clearly.

ADV SIGODI: And how many people, how far were the attackers when you saw him?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The crowd that had been carrying goods, was all over the street.

ADV SIGODI: So the crowd that was carrying the goods, how far was it from your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Some distance away, but not too far.

ADV SIGODI: How far were they from Mtwana's in-law's?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were near, I can say they were about the fourth house away.  That is the estimate I can give, but they went into Nqwani and Buwa's households.  When they came out of these houses, they joined the other group.

ADV SIGODI: How many people were in the street, was the street full of people at that time?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I estimated, there were 500 or more, there were many.

ADV SIGODI: I know that there were many people, but how far were they from your house, were they already opposite your house or were they still coming towards your house when you saw Mtwana, at the time when you saw Mtwana Zulu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: they were still approaching.

ADV SIGODI: How many people were in the street opposite your house when you saw Mtwana Zulu?  I am not talking about the attackers, I mean how many people were there in that vicinity where Mtwana Zulu was?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw them as they were approaching, there were many of them.    At that time I was watching them as they were attacking the Nqwani and Buwa households.  That is before the other group arrived.   After they had finished the attack on these two households, they left carrying goods.  When the people left Nqwani's household, they came to my house.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen carefully, we know from your evidence that there were approximately 500 people going passed your house that evening, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We also know that there were people who were walking along the side of the road?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I think there five or four.

CHAIRPERSON: What my colleague wants to find out from you is, at the time when you saw Mtwana Zulu, how many people approximately were in front of your house, do you understand the question?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I do understand you now.  I was not in a position to count them.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us, we know, that at least those who were walking along the side were approximately five, right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that were in there, were they five, ten or was the street full of people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The just broke windows and did not get into the house.  I am not in a position to say how many they were.  That is when I started to see Mtwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take this step by step, you have said you now understood what the question was, right, what I explained to you ...

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What my colleague wishes to know, approximately how many people would you say were in front of your house at the time when you saw Mtwana Zulu?  Do you understand the question?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that at about that time, people had already started attacking the houses, Victor Nqwani's house, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there were people in Buwa's house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you saw Mtwana after these two houses had been attacked, is that right or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you saw Mtwana Zulu in front of your house, approximately how many people were in the road next to your house, do you understand the question?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  The other group had not as yet arrived, it was just the people who had gone into the houses.  There could have been five people each who went into these houses.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, must I carry on at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure you are about to finish?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, about this Mtwana issue, just two questions basically.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean your cross-examination?

MR STRYDOM: Unfortunately not Chairperson.  There are certain other aspects I will have to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: I hope thereby limiting my learned friend's cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just carry on and at a convenient point, will you let us know, then we will rise at that point.  Do you want to close this Mtwana aspect?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, let me do that.  Do you then say that Mtwana was also one of the people that went into the houses opposite you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not saying he attacked those houses, I just saw him outside there.

MR STRYDOM: Did you first recognise his voice or did you first see him?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were standing by the window watching him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he wants to find out is what is it that made you recognise Mtwana?  Is it because you first saw him or is it because you first heard his voice?  Do you understand the question?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I first heard his voice, thereafter I saw him.

MR STRYDOM: If I put to you that there is a chance that you are making a mistake because the light was not good, you were looking from inside the house and add to that, that I put to you that Mtwana was not there, isn't there a possibility that you are making a mistake?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying it was not dark, there was sufficient light, it was as bright as daylight.  It was at night, but the lights are very bright.  It is as if it is daylight.