Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

CHAIRPERSON: Then in your mind, did it cross your mind that the whole building might have been blown to smithereens, bricks and all, raised to the ground?  If you didn't know what the affect of the bomb would be.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I only thought it was something that would frighten them.  I got a fright myself when I saw what the damages were.  I never left the scene.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now we're going to call a witness who will say that the lights were on in the hall at the time the bomb exploded, are you in a position to dispute that?  You can't remember.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you can't dispute that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We're going to call a witness who will say that there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded, I assume you're not in a position to dispute that, you can't remember?

ISGAK HARDIEN: All the cars were out, because we ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: How come you can remember?

ISGAK HARDIEN: ... we sat there and waited until all the cars left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you are a hundred percent sure in your own mind that all the cars had left the parking lot?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you think of any reasons why somebody who is called to say that there were cars in the parking lot, might want to lie about that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not if she's going to tell the truth or not the truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I'm asking you if you can think of any reason why anybody would want to tell lies about that.  There's several statements, you will see from the police statements several people say there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded.  I want to know if you can advance any motive as to why these people might want to lie about whether there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know, I cannot give you an answer.

MR LAX: You might also just want to think about this, those statements were taken very soon after the bomb did explode, those people didn't know there was going to be this process years and years later.  You understand?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.  There were many people who made statements because I stood there.

MR LAX: The point is, why would they have lied then to say there were cars in the parking lot, if there weren't?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you ever tell anyone that meetings were held in this hall where acts of sabotage were planned?  Do you understand what sabotage is?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What is sabotage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Like the things we did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, yes.  Now letting off bombs for instance, did you ever tell anybody that you had information that meetings were held in the Early Learning Centre, where plans were made to explode bombs?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember if I told anyone.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's the kind of thing you would have remembered if you'd said it.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say yes or no, I cannot recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you agree with me - as you sit here today, you have no such information?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You have no such information.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

SIBANYONI: Excuse me.
	You said as the statements were taken you stood there, was it the same night the bomb ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: The same night, yes.

SIBANYONI: Did you drop ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: I went to go and drop Mr van Zyl them off at the airport and I returned to the place.  The Bomb Squad was there, there were ambulances, I stood there.

MR SIBANYONI: Now how soon did you return to the scene?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It took me about, not more than half an hour, let us say half an hour, because I took the freeway.

MR SIBANYONI: Now notwithstanding the fact that you said to Williams you have planted a bomb there, you were brave to come and stand there as the statements were taken?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I stood there, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were not afraid?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I stood there.  The next day I walked to my work like a normal person would.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you see Mr Williams after the bomb had exploded?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember if I saw Mr Williams again, it is possible that we saw  each other again, but I cannot remember if I did.  I cannot even remember how many people were there, who was there.

MR SIBANYONI: But were there members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I'm saying now again, I do not know who was there or not, a lot of people were there, all the people living in that area were there.  The next morning I did not come to look.  That same evening when I dropped Mr van Zyl them off at the airport, I went back to the scene, I stood there as a normal person would.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Kahanovitz.

MR LAX: Sorry, while you were there, did you see people injured or not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm sorry?

MR KAHANOVITZ: While you were there on the scene, did you see if people were injured or not?  Was there ambulances there helping people?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, there were just lights, so I cannot say precisely whether they carried people out of there.  Everyone was just inquisitive about the bomb that went off.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR LAX: So you don't know if people were injured or not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct, I cannot say whether people got injured or not.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MS COLERIDGE: Excuse me Chairperson, I've just had a request if this witness could just stand down for a few minutes, then we'll proceed again.

CHAIRPERSON: You want a short adjournment.  Yes, we'll take a short adjournment.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ISGAK HARDIEN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: (Cont)
	Thank you.
	Mr Hardien, as someone who doesn't read and write, I assume you would not have been in a position to collect documents which emanated from the Kewtown Youth Movement, pamphlets, posters, whatever.  You wouldn't be able to pick it up and identify documents as belonging to the Kewtown Youth Movement, 'cause you can't read them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I could see Kewtown Youth Movement or Football Club, those are the everyday things that one would read.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you saw the word Kewtown written, you'd be able to recognise that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But if the document was about politics, would you know?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I would have asked somebody.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You'd have to ask someone.  Did you ever collect any documents of the Kewtown Youth Movement and hand them on to Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You did.  How were you able to know that the documents came from the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I obtained from, I cannot remember from who, but I know that it was someone who was with them in meetings all the time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So they freely gave these pamphlets to you, it wasn't something you had to go and steal?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you know what was in these documents?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now were you asked by Mr van Zyl to burn a printing press?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember that he asked me something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember him asking me something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Might it help if I refreshed your memory?  You see, does the name Esquire Press ring a bell?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, you told the Truth Commission Investigators that you had committed arson at the premises of the Esquire Press.  Can I read you your evidence that you gave, would it help you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Perhaps it will.

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle B, page 182.