Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR STOFILE: The question is, I put it to you that you were taking an escape route to Myapi.  It is not correct that you were conscientised by them.  The position is that it was during the period of transformation, you know when the political prisoners were not...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't go on too long, he'll get confused.  Put it to him, what's your comment on that Mr Siqhola?

MR LAX: Sorry, if I could just intervene here?  What are you putting to him?  Are you putting to him that he's fabricating this story about this Damascian conversion?

MR STOFILE: He's exaggerating it, the actual situation is that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You see because I'm not clear from what you put to him before, whether you're saying he never spoke to those two people, did he speak to them?

MR STOFILE: Well, what I gathered from one of them is that it is not correct that they conscientised them when they were - you know they changed him.

MR LAX: Well, you see it's a big difference between whether - they don't know what happened in his mind and you don't know what happened in his mind and we don't know what happened in his mind and either he spoke to them or he didn't.  Now that's a fact you can either put to him that he did or didn't speak to them.  What the effect of that was they may not be aware and we certainly aren't aware and you're putting to him that he is fabricating that his mind was changed?

MR STOFILE: I put it to you ...(intervention)

MR LAX: On what basis are you putting it because you haven't laid a foundation for that yet?

MR STOFILE: The question that I wanted to put to him was that it is a strange thing that at the time when you decided to - you said you changed mentally, you were influenced by Myapi and Zamele because Zamele said it is not the case, they didn't speak to you about politics?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Are you trying to say that I am lying because I am telling you they were unaware that they were changing my mind through our conversations.

MR STOFILE: The thing is they say they didn't speak to you about politics but you know, they conversed with you in the normal, not about politics, to politicize you, there's a difference when you talk with somebody about general things without politicizing a person.  Anyway, I'll accept that as an answer and leave that for argument.
	When you changed your mind you were not taken to task because you were breaching the oath which you took with the security police.  Do you remember you earlier said that when you joined you were made to take an oath, did that oath fall away when you breached this?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: When a person changes he changes.  Even now I'm a changed person, I'm a believer now, I was not a believer then so you don't concede that the past things when you change, you change completely.

MR STOFILE: Every time you spoke to the askari it was before you had contact with Myapi, is that case or am I correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Which askaris?

CHAIRPERSON: Which askari are you talking about?

MR STOFILE: The askaris which were influencing to join them, I think he mentioned that in his evidence in chief at some point.  I just want to be clear.

MR LAX: If you look at paragraph 16.2, it was in 1987.  Paragraph 16.2 of Exhibit A page 15 of the annexure.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was before?

MR STOFILE: And you were politicized enough to say that you were not prepared to join them?  Was that the case?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I don't understand your question can you rephrase it?

MR STOFILE: In 1987 you were so politicized that when the askari people called upon you to change because my understanding that your transformation took place after you had spoken with Myapi later on ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Stofile, it might help if you laid a proper foundation for what you're putting to him.  If you asked him why he wouldn't join the askaris.

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chairperson.  Can you tell us why you didn't join the askaris?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I can tell you.

MR STOFILE: Please tell us?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not want to kill people, that is the main reason.  You see, I've got a problem with that because when you were assaulting people you had made admissions here that you know, they were so extreme so that you foresaw that they could die but yet you tortured them.  Now the difference between the askari and that method, to me there is none.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm having difficulty with what you're trying to get at, Mr Stofile.  You're questioning him, you're saying "why didn't you join Vlakplaas or the askaris?"  Now he says "I didn't join them because I didn't want to kill people".  Now you say "okay, I've got a problem with that, you tortured people but you've got a problem with killing people?"  Now what are you trying to say, are you trying to get at that - yes what must he say "I didn't want to go and live in Pretoria or East London" or what are you going to achieve by it.  That's what I'm trying to understand by your questioning.

MR STOFILE: My reason, Chairperson, is that the reason given by him is not convincing because he was doing what the askaris were doing.

MR LAX: That's a matter for argument, Mr Stofile.

MR STOFILE: Yes Chairperson.

MR LAX: You must deal with it accordingly.

MR STOFILE: As the Chairperson pleases.
	Mrs Matoti - it's something I've left over, Mrs Matoti mentions that during the time he was at Norwood one of the police officers asked her because she had not eaten, he bought some food to eat.  The one who was in the car when she was arrested who pretended to be a prisoner then you, when the food was brought, you said Mrs Matoti is a terrorist, she can't have food and you ate that food.  Do you remember that?  Is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, that is not correct.  That is wrong.

MR STOFILE: I suggest, I put it to you that the victim says that you did that and you ate the food and without any conscience because you were saying that she's a terrorist?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'd like to explain ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Stofile, just tell me, when exactly that happened?  I was just slightly distracted, I apologise.

MR STOFILE: It's at the time she was being interrogated at Norwood.

MR LAX: That's on the 16th?

MR STOFILE: Yes because one officer who pretended to be a prisoner suggested that she must be brought some food because they've been keeping her for too long.

MR LAX: Right, thank you.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The detainees would be bought food by the security branch, we would be the ones to buy food for them, they would tell us what they want to eat and then we would go out and buy for them.  So I don't see any reason for me to eat Mrs Matoti's food because I was the one who was buying food.  There was money in the safe that was used to buy food for the detainees so there was no reason for me to take Mrs Matoti's food.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless you're hungry.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Unless I was hungry but I was the one who was buying food for the detainees so there was no reason for me to take her food.

MR STOFILE: Mr Siqhola, this is no joke, the victim's family says that you ate that food without any conscience alleging that she was a terrorist and she didn't have anything to eat that particular day and for the consecutive three days.  those are her instructions, firm instructions?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There is no such, Chairperson.

MR STOFILE: Do you dispute that that ever occurred?

CHAIRPERSON: He's just said there was no such, he's disputed it.

MR LAX: Just while we're there, do you know whether she was given food on the following three days or not?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I don't know.

MR LAX: So if she says she wasn't, you can't dispute that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I can't dispute that.