Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: through the veld.  And we waited at a particular place until 
about one o'clock in the morning.  We were all dressed in 
dark clothes.  It wasn't camouflage type of uniform or 
clothes, it was just dark denim clothes and sweaters.  
	I then heard that the person whose house and business 
it was, was one Mr Kahn.  Later that night we crossed the 
river.  There is a specific place where a type of a wall had 
been built and we crossed there.  I had heard that there 
were crocodiles in the river.  I was part of the so-called 
back-up team, Andre Andronowitz and myself.  We walked right 
at the back.  But at that particular place where we crossed 
the river, Eugene de Kock first waited for us all to cross 
and then he crossed, and then he passed us again.  
	I was at the back the whole time to make sure that 
nobody was following us or pursuing us or that nobody saw 
us.  Near the business premises and home, which was fenced 
around completely, and there was a type of an incline there, 
I couldn't see exactly what happened, but Col De Kock - I 
can't remember which leg it was, but he tore the ligament in 
his knee, near the shop, and after that he had to be 
carried.	If I remember correctly, Louw van Niekerk and Douw 
Willemse stayed with him.
	I entered a gate and I think on the left-hand side 
there was a black shack, asbestos shack, but they told me 
that the night watchman was there.  I went past this place 
and after having passed the shack I heard the night watchman 
coming out.  He must have heard something.  He was shot 
there several times.  He shouted - I can't remember who shot 
him, it was very dark and I had already passed that point.  
	I was inside the premises to perform security and 
defence functions there and I went to the shop to see if 
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UNKNOWN: 80

UNKNOWN: there were any people there.  The shop is on the left-hand 
side. I went around it and I was between the outside fence 
and the shop on the premises.  The direction which I was 
facing was back towards the border of South Africa.
	From the members went into the house next to the shop 
and people were shot.  The people, I think Marthinus Ras 
Jnr, he was in the house, he went into the house. I think 
Willie Nortje as well and others.  I can't remember exactly 
who, but I am virtually certain of these two.  
	I later heard that an Indian man, his wife and two 
children had been killed in this operation or died in the 
operation.  They were sleeping. They were shot, explosives 
were placed in the house. 
	Yes, Willie Nortje now works for National Intelligence. 
 He is also a State witness and he was one of the people who 
went into the house.  
	Whilst after we had moved away from the house for some 
distance the house exploded, was blown-up.  The explosion 
took place whilst we were already moving back towards the 
border.  Nobody knew - when I say nobody I mean Lieut Ras, 
Marthinus Ras Jnr, he knew who was inside the house.  It was 
his information and the security branch Zeerust.  It was 
information I didn't know.  
	Specifically who were in the house - the instructions 
were that the residents had to be eliminated because there 
might be terrorists in the house.  There was no information 
available beforehand that there would be children in the 
house and nobody expected any children in the house.  If I 
had known that children would be shot dead I would probably 
have had a problem to continue with the operation.  But I 
would like to add here that I would still have gone along 
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UNKNOWN: 81

UNKNOWN: with the operation, I wouldn't have taken place in cross-
border operations after being told that children could 
possibly be killed.  I would have had a problem with that, 
but I wouldn't have told De Kock and them no, I am not going 
with.

UNKNOWN: What effect would that have had if you had 
told them no, you weren't going to go with them, that you 
refuse?

UNKNOWN: Well, in the first place I already knew of a 
cross-border operation which was to take place.  I don't 
know what they would have done with me, but they could have 
eliminated me, because perhaps I had become a risk through 
knowing too much or they could have transferred me. But I 
would have been worked out of Vlakplaas. 
	If I can describe it like this  such as a platoon 
which had to march, and if you take out the marker or a 
specific person then the platoon is no longer functional, it 
doesn't have sufficient people.  So I just went along with 
the stream.
	I personally would not have shot an innocent child 
there, but as I have already testified, I didn't go into the 
dwelling house. I was just securing the area around the 
house.  I would have gone along in a group context, as I 
have already said.
	I still have a problem with this operation, I think 
about the children who were shot, and I don't live 
comfortably with this fact. 
	If I could put it this way; it won't comfort me in any 
way, but at that time I tried to deal with this, and I told 
myself that the Defence Force did aerial raids across the 
borders, also on foot, and there were other operations as 
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UNKNOWN: 82

UNKNOWN: well where innocent civilians were killed.  
	Furthermore, the terrorists planted bombs in the 
Republic, landmines as well, and children and innocent 
civilians were also killed in those incidents, and that is 
the way in which I tried to deal with this incident.
	As I have already testified, Vlakplaas was the military 
wing of the security police, of the South African Police for 
the government of the day, the National Party.

JUDGE WILSON: And Vlakplaas was called in to perform 
precisely these sort of operations?  Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.	When we left the premises, I 
was once again part of the back-up team. I can remember that 
we struggled to carry De Kock because he was a big man.  So 
we progressed quite slowly.  Andronovitch I once again 
walked quite fast or slow jog and we kept looking back 
towards the Kahn house. I can remember that there were other 
lights close to this particular place, and I thought that 
this must be a little village or something.  We had to check 
that we weren't being followed or that somebody close to the 
premises had seen or heard us.  That is what I meant when I 
said I was part of the back-up team on our way back. 
	We once again crossed the river to the vehicles.  We 
had already reached the vehicles when the place was blown 
up.  As I said we were already in the Republic at that 
stage.
	We then went back to the farmhouse, from which we were 
operating.  After which we packed our stuff and early the 
next morning - I remember we didn't sleep.  Early the next  
morning we drove to Richards Bay to constitute an alibi for 
us.  Col De Kock was lying on the back seat because his leg
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UNKNOWN: 83

UNKNOWN: was injured.  I drove the vehicle.  I think we bandaged his 
leg but he didn't get any medical treatment for his leg.  We 
just drove to Richards Bay with him in that condition.  In 
Richards Bay there were other members that had already 
booked places and made arrangements and preparations for our 
accommodation.  This was under the command of Warrant 
Officer Piet Botha.  He is now Capt Piet Botha.
	They rented rooms for us and they would have done 
things to our beds to make the cleaners believe that we had 
actually slept in the bed.  As I have said, that was to have 
an alibi.
	As I saw the operation it was essential to eliminate 
this passage used by terrorists. I gave no orders and I only 
acted on instructions and orders.
	The persons who were killed, four persons, including 
the two children.  The names of the persons are unknown to 
me.  As far as I can remember it was the Kahn family and 
their house had been blown up.   It was only the home which 
had been blown up, not the shop.