Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

GEORGE NDLOZI: What I would say is that at that stage there was a lot of confusion.  You didn't know what to do, you prayed and you thought your prayers - God is not there, prayers are not answered.  You do everything, you cry, you do whatever, and there is no answer to the solution.
 And at the end of the day you attend to a person whom you laugh when you heard someone has died, and you just smile or laugh and say oh, our comrade is gone.
 And if one can understand that confusion, then one would be able to understand that the Commanders and other political leaders were in another state in which they sort of failed enough to concentrate on how to convince younger people from not getting involved.
 And there was a situation where you  had to choose in which way do you go.  It is either you come on this side or you become on the other side, because you cannot be neutral in that area.  It was not possible for you to be neutral.  If the attacks were launched, you are also affected and your family would be killed.
 So what I will say is yes, things went wrong and we will actually like to ask the Commission to make sure if it had powers, that in future younger people are not getting exposed to this kinds of things because at the end of the day they get a disease that is called post-stress disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, which if you look back to some of them, they went back to school, but they can't cope any more, they can't cope and they come back and they just leave school.  There are a lot of them in the township.
 Some of them have made requests to the TRC that the TRC organise vocational training for them and some of them can't go back to schools, because when they left school they were about 13 years and some of them left school when they were in standard 6, and now they are today about 21, some of them.
 And you know it is very difficult for you at that age to go and sit in a classroom where there is a kid who is about 12 years old, it is very difficult.
 Moreover knowing where you come from and understanding that you didn't actually leave school because you liked, but it was because of the situation.  The conditions forced you to be involved in whatever you were involved in.
 And some of them are also asking for counselling.  And I mean if you understand it according to those lines, I think it will not pose contradictions in a sense that there was a confusion and today we can now sit down together and say let's plan that in future, such things do not happen again.
 We indeed need people who can carefully sit down and think about these ideas.  I've heard people talking earlier here on this platform and some of the things are very touching.  And when they sort of talk, you sort of get a picture of what was going on and then understand it.
 Sort of see things happening, when they talk.  It will be very important that in future young people don't get exposed to such things.  Although we know that they acted as a catalyst into bringing about changes in this country, but there are exceptions.
 We need to make sure that in future, there are things that they can do and there are things that they cannot do for the sake of their future.
 I mean one can go into a broad debate, I mean a broad debate, which as well includes starvation.  But that is why I am saying it needs people who can carefully think about items which will make young people not to get involved in such issues in future.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much George.  Dr Randera will ask you the last question.

DR RANDERA: George, just one question.  Katorus was chosen as a Presidential lead project soon after the 1994 elections.
 Is there any part of that project that lends itself towards assisting hundreds of young people that you have been speaking about today and the problems that you have so eloquently talked about?

GEORGE NDLOZI: Yes.  Some of the SDU and SPU members were incorporated into the police service.  One never believed that these two groups will work, you know, without problems with each other.
 But through the series of discussions that took place amongst them, today the crime around that area is decreased looking at the statistics, at the police statistics.
 Although not all of them were incorporated, there were some projects that also came to place and there are some security companies which trained other people around there to have certificates so that they could get jobs.
 And there are a lot of youth groupings trying to formulate themselves into some kind of a club.  For instance I can mention Itembalethu, which is existing in Katlehong, trying to bring all the youth who were affected by the violence, together and think about things that they might do to try and develop the community, to try and restore a dignity of the youth, to try and sort of, restore culture of living because the most problematic thing is going to school.
 Although we might say there are some of the people today who have decided to become criminals, but there are a very few.  You can name them, there are about four, five.  And the question of the community discussing issues, I think they can find remedy to that situation.

MS MKHIZE: Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I am sorry George, my question perhaps ought to have even come before this last one, that from all the possible information around, it seems what you are describing is how the third force triumphed in Katorus, am I correct?

GEORGE NDLOZI: I beg your pardon?

THOMAS MANTHATA: What you are describing is the success of the third force in Katorus, am I right?

GEORGE NDLOZI: Correct.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much George for coming forward.  I mean the way we have interacted with you, it is a situation where one has got a split between one's heart and one's mind.
 Given the nature of issues we are dealing with, there was the part that was saying let's protect a  young person we have seen a lot, but at the same time in our minds, it is critical at this point in time, to try and make sense of what went wrong in the past with good initiatives in some instances.
 So hence the dialogue which questioning and almost cross-examining what you are saying, it is that need to clarify, to get to the truth as to what went wrong.
 Having made that almost apology on our part, I really want to thank you.  You are one of the survivors in this country who is a source of encouragement that the past was difficult, but young people given an opportunity, they are able to make sense of what they went through and to pursue positive goals and we thank you very much.
 We hope you will be the agent even in your community to help other young people to think about these things and to plan for the better future for all.  Thank  you.

GEORGE NDLOZI: Thank you.  There is also one last thing that I would like to say, that when the Truth Commission went on, but I haven't seen any - some kind of a Union for Sangoma's coming forward because I think it is important that it should be mentioned that they also played a role in the township during that period of violence.
 They came with muti's for people to, you know some of them call it intelezi, where you have to drink it and get courage for yourself to be able to withstand the war, to sometimes smell blood.
 Without me killing any person, it won't be enough, so whatever war that approaches you, you went mad, you went mad and you said I will conquer the war and I will be able to overcome these people and I think that is a very important point that the Union of the Sangoma's also have to make an input about such things because they also had a great impact into the township.
 Some of the boys never had firearms, but because of drinking that intelezi, they said no, we are going forward without us having firearms.  If one person with a firearm falls, we will retrieve that firearm and we will use it.  Thank you very much.