Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, because I've heard personally in many of these hearings that to be trained in the use of a handgrenade, five minutes is enough and if you are an expert, you got top marks at the demolition course, you wouldn't have to actually be trained in the use of a handgrenade just because it comes from Russia or China, you'd know wouldn't you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The training of explosives I did everything all at once.  Those coming from China or from wherever in South Africa, I got that course, all of them at once.  I was given these handgrenades to use them, not to be trained.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gumengu, when you received the handgrenades were there distinctive markings on the outside so that you can ascertain that it was South African origin?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And the purpose of receiving the handgrenades, was it for a specific task or was it merely to keep in your custody to be used whenever required?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I had to keep them in my possession and wait for instructions to use them.

MR MALAN: And the person that you mentioned where you received the handgrenades, was he known to be one of the Security Police or any other official structure?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was the person who was in charge of the explosives in the Transkei.

MR MALAN: Right.  And you know that from your own knowledge?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: If we can go back in the first instance.  We would like to deal with the attempted murder on the deceased, Mr Zokwe, during August 1987.  Was Mr Zokwe in your mind, part and parcel of the political enemy that was sketched to you through all your courses and training in the Police Force?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, he was part of the enemy.

MR MALAN: How did you ascertain that?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was first given the files to read about him, secondly we monitored his activities.  We would from time to time follow up on clues that we would get.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, would you please just give the last part of that again, I didn't hear that.

INTERPRETER: He said they were monitoring his movements, his activities and even the follow-up on clues that they were given.

MR MALAN: Thank you so much.
	Alright.  Capt Mfazwe at some stage before August '87, tasked you with a certain task, would you please reveal this in detail to the Honourable Committee.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.
"In 1987, after so many reports or bits of information that was received about Sthembele, Sthembele is the one who was campaigning in the firms or factories for the unions, mobilising them to take part in the strikes and he was also giving people in Nxaleni, Lebode, military training and the people that he would take and help them cross the borders to Lesotho, and he also had some weapons that he would go and fetch them and use them inside the country.  What was the most important is that he was planning to attack the Security Police in Butterworth.
	Capt Mfazwe then in all these reports before taking place, he called me one weekend, I was at my home in Butterworth after coming from Johannesburg, he told me that there were people who were in the office in Butterworth.  There was this person in Butterworth in the office who was looking for him, that he couldn't help that particular person, therefore he asked me to go there and help out this person because this person was saying that Sthembele was in Bika and he was in the company of one gentleman that was found to be having the arms and that person, it's alleged that he had required training across the borders.  Therefore I had to try and bring Sthembele forward and after that I would arrest him and if the situation does not allow that one of us should die.  I did go to the office from my home, I saw this man that was unknown to me and I was told not to ask questions and this gentlemen had to take me to direct me to the place.
	Just before reaching our destination, Bika, just turning at the last junction from Bika where you are about to get into the township, we saw his car getting out, he was in the company of this person and then this gentleman told me that these are the people that I was talking about."

MR MALAN: Sorry who was this gentleman that you're referring to?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It is this person who was giving out information to Capt Mfazwe.  That was Capt Mfazwe's informer, I was to know his name, I had to do what I had to do.
	I tried to flash the light, trying to stop this car that Sthembele was driving in but he refused to stop.  I followed the car and it was driving in the direction of eDudjwa.

MR MALAN: Were you alone in the car at that point in time?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was with this Capt Mfazwe's informer.

MR MALAN: You referring in your affidavit to two names, namely - I hope I pronounce it correctly Mcukana, who was the driver and the one, Shologu, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is another incident, the one that you are talking about, I'm not yet there.

MR MALAN: Sorry, proceed.  You can proceed.
MR GUMENGU
"I followed this car to the direction of eDudjwa.  When he was at this turn-off that was going to Willowvale, I'm not sure if there was a board that was written "The Dam" or something, but he turned right but when he turned there I heard a gunshot pointing at us.
	After that I followed him, I chased him and he disappeared and as the road was a gravel road, there was a lot of dust that made me not see where he went to, therefore I had to go back to Capt Mfazwe, still driving in this same car."

MR MALAN: Alright.  You referred earlier that the deceased, Mr Zokwe, also used to involve himself in the activities of the unions, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And in retrospect, was that an offence?  Didn't the law provide for activities with the unions?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: So if the deceased did so, he didn't contravene any law at that point in time but it was a thorn in the flesh for the government, am I correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Alright.  Can you please proceed with the matter, the first incident where you apprehended Mr Zokwe.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I would like to place the story in a certain logic because it looks like there are some information that you are going to skip because his arrest was the last thing, therefore I would like to place these events in some logic.