Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: I explained that we went to Nelspruit three times.  On our first - the first two occasions we didn't manage to find Mr Theledi.  I don't remember whether I was referring - whether it was the second or the first time where we have to go via Mrs Mbuyase when we were coming from Nelspruit.  However, if I remember well, that the first time I heard about the Nelspruit operation I was called by a telephone to go to Mrs Mbuyase's home and I went there.  I found Siphiwe Mvuyane in the house.  And the second time it was when Siphiwe came to pick me up from my house and we went via Mrs Mbuyase's house to Nelspruit.

UNKNOWN: Your statement is in fact wrong then as it stands.

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: I would say yes, the first paragraph said Siphiwe came to the house on the first occasion.  He picked me from the house to Nelspruit.  It should be the second instance.

UNKNOWN: But at paragraph ninety four (94) you state that this happened in January 1993.  Would that period still be incorrect or would that remain correct?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Mr Chairperson, I won't be sure about the dates of the incidents.  I will say it would be January, but I'm not sure.

UNKNOWN: You've also stated in your viva voce evidence that Mr Nconco came to you to ask you to proceed with the elimination of Mr Theledi as he was a problem amongst the IFP people in Nelspruit?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: And then you then went to Mrs Mbuyase and Mrs Mbuyase gave you the approval to proceed with the elimination?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: (REPLY NOT INTERPRETED)

UNKNOWN: Didn't Mr Wiseman Nconco know Mrs Mbuyase?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: He knew her.

UNKNOWN: Why didn't he go to Mrs Mbuyase?  Why did he come to you?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: I don't know whether he first contacted her or not, but since he was an operative like me, and based in Umlazi, Makuthu and the other surrounding areas, he was always working closer with Siphiwe who was a commander in the Southern Natal.  He's the one who came with this Caravelle car I've just explained, which was a car belonging to Siphiwe Mvuyane, after the death of Siphiwe Mvuyane.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I know that.  What I find very surprising is that in your comprehensive affidavit you had made no mention of Mrs Mbuyase having given any approval of you proceeding with the elimination of Mr Theledi after Mr Mvuyane had died.

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: I don't know, Mr Chairperson, but I would like to point it out that I have explained that statements that we gave with regards to the incidents of our involvement are so many in such a way that you might find in one of the statement which I wrote before, it contained all the information that I remembered, and the other one that I might have made in another place, I might write it and it will look different to the previous one, because I might forget some of the incidents and put them in and some out. So, I don't understand, I'm also surprised as to why it's not in the statement.

UNKNOWN: So, you are saying we must accept the version that you have given today?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, because if you look at my evidence during the trial, most of the things which do not appear in the statement before us today were disclosed during the trial.

UNKNOWN: I wasn't concerned about your trial, I was just concerned about this application.  In any case, thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Judge Khampepe.  Any questions arising out of questions put by Judge Khampepe to the witness?

MR MAGADI: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntuli?

MR NTULI: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTULI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbambo, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at this stage, just prior to the commencement of this hearing, we, the members of the panel, were approached by the legal representatives, and the legal representative for certain victims in this matter, particularly relating to the evidence which will be given by the next witness, Mr Hlongwane, has asked for a postponement because he has to get instructions from his clients and he's not in a position to proceed with the matter tomorrow, and unfortunately the matter will only we able to be proceeded with on Wednesday with Mr Hlongwane's evidence.  So, at this stage we will postpone this hearing until Wednesday, that is the fifteenth (15th) of September 1998, at 9:30 in the morning at this hall.  However, we will be proceeding tomorrow, but with another matter.  It's another amnesty application which has nothing to do at all with this present one.  That is the amnesty application of one Voice Morris Sambo.  That matter is expected and hopefully will proceed tomorrow morning at this hall, also at 9:30 in the morning.  So at this stage, we'll adjourn this hearing and the evidence of Mr Hlongwane to commence on Wednesday, but we will be adjourning until tomorrow for another amnesty application, namely that of Mr Sambo.  I apologise for any inconvenience caused by such postponement.  Thank you.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 15 SEPTEMBER 1998
PROCEEDINGS RESUMED ON 15 SEPTEMBER 1998

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everything.  I apologise for the late start in this matter.  You'll recall that yesterday evening this matter was postponed until half past nine this morning.  We were all ready at half past nine save for the representative of the applicant.  Mr Mpshe, is Mr Black present?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, he has not yet arrived, but we just got his call about ten (10) minutes ago, informing us that he's plus forty (40) minutes away.  But as the Committee had directed in chambers, the attorney is ready to start with the matter.  He will take up whenever he arrives.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, you're the applicant's attorney.  Are you in a position to commence with this matter?  Have you spoken to your client about this situation?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, I have explained to the client the position, and with the leave of the Committee, given the fact that now Mr Black, we're aware that he's about forty five/forty (45/40) minutes away from here.  If it pleases the Committee, we may adjourn for the time.  However, looking at the time that we have waited, if the Committee is of the idea that we proceed, we are ready to proceed with the background until Mr Black arrives here.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say it's most unsatisfactory that an advocate can phone and say he's got another forty (40) minutes to go when it's quarter past eleven and we should have been starting at half past nine.  I just cannot understand it.  It's a situation that has caused great problems now because, as you know, we will not be able to proceed with this matter tomorrow or Thursday, because there's the other part-heard matter that is proceeding at half past nine.  And that other matter was the prime reason why we've come to Ermelo for this hearing.  This matter was put on as an addition to the roll.  So, if we start with this matter and it doesn't finish, it will end up being a part-heard, which one normally likes to avoid picking up part-heard matters.  Mr Nkosi, you mentioned this when we were in chambers earlier, but just to confirm it on record.  When Mr Black arrives, will he be in a position to start off immediately?  He won't want to have some time to consult, because you did inform me that he had consulted with the applicant before this day or before yesterday, some time in the past?  Is that correct?