Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We were also surprised by these allegations, that she was killed by members of the SDU because Bulelwa was working with us.  The information that we received from the members of the Youth League, they told us that they killed her because she was working with the SDU's.  When there were bedroom ...[indistinct] and the lootings all over, Bulelwa would go to them and tell them.

MR MADASA: Was there any relationship between Bulelwa and Blanko?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Bulelwa was loved by all the people and she was working with all the people, I think she was also working with Blanko.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the ANC Youth League admit having killed Bulelwa?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Even to this day Sir, they haven't agreed that they killed Bulelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So as matters stand, no-one knows who killed Bulelwa, it's just a suspicion?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We got it from the horses mouth, we can't stand against them.  They told us that Bulelwa had been killed by them.  Now, it's a pity because these people who gave us this information are dead now.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these the people you killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MALAN: May I follow up on this line about the accusation.  One of the accusation or one of the persons making this accusation seems to have been, from statements in our bundle, Vips.  That Vips informed the other Youth League members, in fact that you yourself - I think he said: "Oscar killed Bulelwa".  Are  you aware of that statement?  Has you lawyer pointed that out to you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I heard this allegation.  I told you already that I came out of the trial on Thursday and when I arrived I discovered that there was a conflict between the SDU and the Youth League, now they thought that I had killed Bulelwa.
	They said that I was on trial because of Bulelwa's death and then I stated clear, the person who opened a case against me was Njomo from Pietersburg, it was not Bulelwa, it was just an allegation.  And I tried to put my case clear as to who is the person who went to lay charges against me, charges leading to my sentence.  Now the crime that I committed was between Nights and Germiston, Bulelwa is not involved at all.

MR MALAN: May I just follow up.  You also gave evidence that one of the persons that you saw when you woke up the night that Blanko was killed and when his house was set alight was Vips?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: This is the same Vips that allegedly blamed you for having killed Blanko - Bulelwa, sorry.  Is it the same Vips, that's really my question?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, there was only one Vips.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me, why was Vips not killed with the others, because you I identified them?  The people who were killed were the people who killed Blanko and Bulelwa but Vips is taken aside, why was he not killed with the others?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Vips was a leader of the Youth League, that is why Manyala and them took him with to kill him in another section.  He was not killed with this group.  He was their leader and that is why he was taken by the leaders of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but why?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Why they killed him separately I do not know.  It also surprised me as to why was he not killed with the others, it was a question mark to me and I never got an answer for that because they drove off with him in a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say you came back from the trial on a Thursday.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you came back from the trial, had you been in custody until then?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  And Bulelwa was killed the day thereafter?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: She was killed on the 6th.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you came from custody, what date was that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I just happen to forget the date but it was on a Thursday.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the 6th, what day of the week was the 6th?  Can you still recall when Bulelwa was killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was a Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a Monday?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's when Bulelwa was killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you come from custody on the Thursday preceding that Monday?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So, no-one could suggest that you had been on trial for killing Bulelwa, because when you came back Bulelwa was not yet dead, right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, there were statements that I am the person responsible for the killing of Bulelwa and I have witness to that effect.  My and my fried Alex, we were all together watching television and after the story on television we went to sleep.  It was not even on hour when Vusi came in to wake me up.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I understand that.  You were saying that people were even suggesting that you were on trial because you had killed Bulelwa.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I misunderstood you then, okay.
	Mr Madasa, is there indication how far from wrapping up this evidence in chief because the time now is already a quarter past four?  How far are you from finishing your evidence in chief?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, I'm almost over now, two or three questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will continue until you finish your evidence in chief.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Now, I understand that a meeting was called after this massacre between the Youth League and the SDU's with a view to have truce so to speak, do you know anything about that meeting to reconcile the two?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I know that.

MR MADASA: Who called that meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The meeting was called by central and ANC Youth League in Katlehong.  They called that meeting so that they wanted to reconcile the two parties.

MR MADASA: Were you reconciled?  Was the meeting successful?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I wouldn't say they meeting succeeded in reconciling us.  Let me start it this way.  We were suspended for three months, they confiscated arms from us for three months.
	They took them to - they called other sections to come and patrol in our section.  You wont' talk about peace whilst you are armed, so from that side it was difficult for them to be suspended because they didn't have a proper structure.  Whilst we were suspended they continued killing our members.  
	ANC in Shell House sent Africa to come and solve the same problem about the ANC Youth League and SDU's.  Africa came and then we explained our positions, that we are in conflict with them.  He himself, they wanted to hijack his car, that is ANC Youth League.  
	I'm trying to say that peace never existed until in 1994 when they stole Mr Kumalo's van, that is a panel van which is a Cortina.  The vice president of the Katlehong branch was coming to show area 6, that is ANC, unluckily Tiger was present called the residents' meeting to show the parents what your children are doing, then he said: "Children have stolen the car" ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: You speak very fast, just slow down please.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Alright.

MR MADASA: Continue.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In that meeting a decision was taken that each and every resident whose children were involved should repay Kumalo's car because the car has collided with something and then it needed to be panel beaten.

MR MADASA: I don't want to get into that.  Was there peace eventually between you and the SDU's, I mean the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would say peace came when I was the chairperson of the ANC because I tried to reconcile the ANC Youth League and SDU's.  I tried by all means to reconcile the two parties.

MR MADASA: You say you were - were you later elected as the chair of the ANC?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.