Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, that would have been - it was part of our ongoing discussions, Mr Chairman, we didn't have one discussion.  We were having ongoing discussions.  Every time we had an opportunity to come together we had these discussions.  This would probably have been towards the end of October.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, this October?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I would say October.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Even November maybe.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, thank you, maybe October, November.  Let's go on.
"Towards the end of February 1993, during a visit to Clive at his home, he showed me a list with nine names."
Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: "We discussed the names on the list and I numbered them according to priority of elimination."
Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, that's not correct, Mr Chairman, I think he must have misunderstood. It was in order of priority of enmity towards the Conservative Party, which I stated on a number of occasions.

GEORGE BIZOS: How could a person misunderstand order of priority to do what or not to do, I don't know what to do, what's supposed to do, the priority, with elimination?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this question must be directed to Mr Walus, I can't answer for his statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: "At that stage no date was set when to begin with the eliminations."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Clive only said that I must work sensibly."
What did that mean?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, first of all did you say that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: You did say it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... the time-frame is a bit different, Mr Chairman.  What I testified earlier is that I decided - we decided in February that Hani was going to be the target, and he then got the address list.  He then went on to do the recce and it carried on from there.

GEORGE BIZOS: "At that stage no date was set when to begin with eliminations, only said that I must work sensibly."
Work at what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, with the planning of the assassination of Mr Chris Hani.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say that the only person envisaged was Chris Hani? Is that your evidence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if this was said by Mr Walus to the police, it's wrong?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I think that perhaps the language problem could have been responsible for that, but I don't know, you must direct that question to Mr Walus.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you speak Polish, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don't, Mr Chairman, but Mr Walus battles with English.

GEORGE BIZOS: What language did you speak to him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I spoke to him in English, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever have any trouble communicating with him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't, Mr Chairman, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you say that he may have had communication problems with the police?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I suggested that as a possibility and then I also said direct the question to Mr Walus, don't direct it at me.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I can't explain it.

GEORGE BIZOS: "After I ..."

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Bizos, sorry to interrupt here.  The word "elimination" here has been used more than once.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And with regard to the first one you said that as far as you are concerned this had to - all you were doing with him, with Mr Walus, was to set the names in order of enmity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I testified earlier that in February, shortly after the statement by Mr Hani that the weapons must come back from Angola, that I identified Mr Hani as a target and that's when we actually started talking about the elimination of Hani.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ja, but I am reading from here, the sentence,
"...and I numbered them according to priority of elimination."
and you told us that that was not the - that was not the purpose. When the names were set out in...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I said we numbered them in a priority order in terms of their enmity ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ....towards the - I don't know why Mr Walus said this, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, and my question is, was the discussion between yourself and him such that it could possibly have caused Mr Walus to misunderstand the discussion between you and him? To think that they were being listed for in priority of elimination instead of understanding that this was - they are being listed in order of enmity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, we were clear, that only Hani had to be eliminated, but then during our discussions we also had discussed that if this doesn't succeed then obviously we will - may have to target somebody else to achieve the desired objective.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It would have had to have been a major misunderstanding between him, between you and Mr Walus. If he thinks this - I list these people in this order for purposes of elimination, while you on the other hand think that these people are being listed in order of enmity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: There would have to be quite a huge misunderstanding between you two.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It could be with the two concepts, Mr Chairman, the elimination of Hani and the fact that if it didn't achieve the desired effect the elimination of others could have caused that confusion.

JUDGE WILSON: Why should you want to list them in a list of enmity to the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, quite honestly. We needed a code, as I mentioned in my earlier testimony, we needed a code so that we could discuss the question of the assassination over the telephone without triggering off suspicion to either of our womenfolk or anyone else who may be in the vicinity and the numbers suited it, suited that purpose.

JUDGE WILSON: But if there was only one person who was going to be assassinated you would never have had to mention anybody else.  You wouldn't need a selection of numbers, would you?  You could just talk about our friend.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but Mr Walus insisted he be given the list to take with him with a number on it.

JUDGE WILSON: He insisted on the numbers?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, and he actually numbered, I think he testified somewhere in this or given a statement that he numbered the list.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Bizos, I interrupted you while you were to move on to the next paragraph.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you see,  would you not have to speculate in relation to the questions put to you by the learned Judges, Mr Derby-Lewis, because Mr Walus says in the next paragraph
"After I received the list from Clive Derby-Lewis, I started to do reconnoitring."
Am I doing wrong in using the word "reconnoitring"? I don't know what, I think this is military - reconnaissance.  So if you don't mind, I will use the English word. 
"After I received the list from Clive Derby-Lewis I started to reconnoitre. I started with number one on the list, Nelson Mandela."
Is that false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that question I ask you to direct to Mr Walus.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, the statement is ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is, Nelson Mandela was not a target.

GEORGE BIZOS: And he certainly didn't do that on your instructions?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or with your knowledge?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or the instructions or knowledge of your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, as far as I know, and I can't speak once again for my wife.

GEORGE BIZOS: So if your evidence is correct then presumably the Committee is entitled to deduce that Mr Walus is his own man, he doesn't need a Derby-Lewis to do things for him?