Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

MR BERGER: So if I understand you correctly, at some stage before the attack all the residents of the hostel were called together in the stadium, addressed by Vanana Zulu who said that this man Matanzima is a spy for the ANC?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I've clearly explained that it was Mr Zulu who was conducting the meeting.  He is the person who told us or explained to us about Mr Matanzima.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you told about Matanzima?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: We were told that it has been established that since Matanzima is inside the hostel, he has been sent to do a reconnaissance as to how bombs could be planted in the hostel.

MR BERGER: How long before the attack was this, a month, two months, a year?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say approximately two months.

MR BERGER: And what happened to Matanzima after this meeting?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Matanzima was taken.  The decision was taken that he should be taken to a conference of the IFP to explain his involvement in the hostel.

MR BERGER: And was there such a conference of the IFP?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Which conference are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've just told us that it was decided that Matanzima should be taken before the conference of the ANC to explain about his activities.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Just for the record Chairperson, you said ANC and I believe the witness said IFP.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were you present when Mr Matanzima was called before the IFP to explain his actions?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I last heard about it when they were talking about him at the stadium, whether he was taken to Ulundi or not I don't know, I didn't go there.

MR BERGER: Were you ever given a briefing or did anyone ever report back to you on the actions that had been taken by the IFP against Matanzima?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say since Matanzima came back and said he had fully joined the IFP as a real member, it looked like they sat down with him and talked with him.  I don't know what happened, I thought they brought him back.

MR BERGER: So ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the IFP?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: As I've explained before, the decision was taken by Matanzima himself when it was decided they would take him to the conference.  I don't know but I've seen is that those people who went for the conference, they came back with him, so we were not called, briefed as to what was said about him or what happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you mentioned that he had joined the organisation?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I heard, it was rumoured around that he has officially joined the IFP but that was not explained in a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: You were told or you overheard that he had now joined the IFP?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I heard.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, if I understand you correctly, after he was spoken to, or this is your understanding, after Matanzima was spoken to by the leadership of the IFP he was then accepted into the IFP as a full member, is that correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: What I don't know is whether he was accepted at the conference or at kwaMadala Hostel, can you clarify for me?

MR BERGER: Well after he had gone to explain his apparent actions or his alleged actions about spying or carrying out secret activities for the ANC, he explained that, as far as you understood to the IFP leadership and then he returned to kwaMadala and the talk amongst people at kwaMadala was that Matanzima is now in the IFP as a full member of the IFP, would that be correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I can say that what was said at the conference, whether he was called to explain something or he explained something, I don't know.  All that I heard is that they are going with him to the conference and thereafter, later I was told that he has officially become a member of the IFP, that's all I heard.

MR BERGER: And after he had officially become a member of the IFP, Matanzima then returned to kwaMadala Hostel, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, it is true.

MR BERGER: So then at the time of the attack, I would be correct to say that Matanzima was an IFP member living in kwaMadala Hostel?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Even if I can't confirm that to be the truth, I think it was like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, because we intend sitting until late, we intend taking a 15 minute break, so at an appropriate time would you indicate?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, could I just get an indication of how long after the tea break we're going to be sitting?

CHAIRPERSON: 5 o'clock.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this would then be the appropriate point to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 15 minutes bread and we will come back at 4 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: (s.u.o.)

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Thanks.

MR BERGER: (cont)
	Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Khanyile, if we are talking about the same person, Mr Matanzima and Mr Nosenga, I want to tell you what in general terms he says in this document.  He says that the police were involved to the extent he says, that police Casspirs or he says a police Casspir was used to transport some of the attackers, including himself into Boipatong.  Now do you say that that is a lie?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Sir, I would say even God knows police were not involved.

MR BERGER: It's not only Mr Nosenga who says this but members of the community who were in Boipatong the night of the attack saw police Casspirs or armed vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, is that also not true?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would try to explain in this way.  During the hearing of our case, our criminal case, we were also going to rely on the fact that we had police, however the disappointment was that 80% of the people from Boipatong denied that they did see police taking part in the attack.
	All I can say is that at the time when all the statement or issues were discussed, it was just a political game.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is the answer to the question?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: The answer Mr Berger is what Matanzima said is lies.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Berger put to you was that Mr Matanzima is not the only person who is making the allegation that the police were involved, even the members of the community say that they saw police in Boipatong at the time of the attack, police vehicles inside Boipatong at the time of the attack, what do you say to that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: My answer to that is that that is not true because I explained even before the Judge, residents of Boipatong denied that police were involved.  Even the time when we got convicted it was denied that, it was not established that police were present.

MR BERGER: Did I understand you correctly Mr Khanyile, to say that during the criminal trial you were alleging, you meaning you and the accused, were alleging that there were police in Boipatong but the residents were saying that there were not, is that what you're saying?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: May you please repeat your question, I didn't understand.

MR BERGER: Did I misunderstand you or am I correct, that you said that at the time of the criminal trial you were claiming that there were police in Boipatong but the residents were saying that there were not?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Let me try to explain, to clarify my answer.  I said, during the trial even us were relying on that rumours that police were involved, however what surprised us is that during the time of evidence, when they were giving evidence and when people were asked whether they did see the police, it was discovered that they didn't see the police.  Most people or witnesses said they saw the police after the attack.