Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, we never did, even Mr Dlamini did not take any money or I can say I did not see him taking any.

MR KADES: So the motivation was purely the R20.000-00 that you were to receive from Mrs Mandela, that was your monetary reward.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I disagree with you but what I can say is that we did not take any money.  As to whether the R20.000-00 was motivation or not, I happen to disagree with you because if I wanted money I could have taken the money from Doctor Asvat's surgery and I would have gone to Mrs Mandela to demand my R20.000-00 if that was my motivation.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] to Mrs Mandela to demand your money?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I never did, I only met Mrs Mandela once and that was all.

MR KADES: Why didn't you go and demand what was due to you?  ...[inaudible] matter to you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: After that incident I was - the police were actually looking for me and I don't think I had time to think about the money because now I was thinking about my freedom that was just about to be curtailed.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR RICHARD: Richard not Richardson, I represent Mr Richardson.

CHAIRPERSON: Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.
 Sir, when did you first meet Mr Richardson, was it before the 29th of January '89 or afterwards?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think I knew him after I'd been arrested.

MR RICHARD: ...[inaudible] you didn't know him, is that your answer?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't remember meeting with him.

MR RICHARD: And he played no part at all in the transactions relating to the assassination of Doctor Asvat?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I don't think so, I only met him after my arrest.

MR RICHARD: ...[inaudible] that you never saw him at any of the conversations with Mrs Mandela or in the surgery or in any of the transports to and from the surgery, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Hlengiwe?  Hlengiwe and then Faizel.

MS MKHIZE: Mr Mbatha, when you said Thulani was your blood, are you referring to relations or just a friend?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, we are related.

MS MKHIZE: Now, why can't you help the Commission and just say Thulani was related to you and how you were related?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think it slipped my mind or nobody asked me specifically as to what relations I had with Thulani.

MS MKHIZE: Could you please just tell the Commission?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Our mothers are sisters.

MS MKHIZE: Now, here you said that you were scared not to carry out the orders because you would probably have been killed by Mrs Mandela, what do you mean by that, why do you say that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I had to an explanation or some wind of the fact that since my fingerprint had been taken Mr Dlamini and Mr Botha told me that if I did not comply - could you please repeat your question?

MS MKHIZE: You've given us reasons that you did not want to be involved in the murder but you were scared that if you did not comply with Mrs Mandela's orders you were going to get killed, could you just please explain to the Commission as to where you got that from?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I've got an explanation, when we were discussing the issue of the fingerprints they told me that it was a dangerous situation that I put myself in by submitting to the taking of the fingerprints - that if they want another person or they look for another person, as I had already submitted my fingerprints I had information with regard to the killing and if I was investigated something was going to happen to me.

MS MKHIZE: How do you link that to Mrs Mandela?  The other question is, you said you did not know as to why you had to visit Doctor Asvat's consulting rooms but you did go there and you said you were Mandla Mkwanyana, how did that happen?  Why didn't you ask him as to why he was sending you to the surgery instead of going yourself?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: He had told me earlier on to do that and it never occurred to me that I should ask him a lot of questions, maybe if I asked him I would be answering you as well.

MS MKHIZE: The way you answer you're questions you become very vague, it's very difficult to get to grips with what you are saying.
(no sound)

DR RANDERA: ...[inaudible] exactly, I'm struggling with first impressions in your statement of course.  Earlier on you made quite a moving plea to the Asvat family when you asked for forgiveness for destroying a very important life to them.  Now this is where my difficulty is and I want you to think very carefully in your answer, why does it appear - both from all the contradictions that have been pointed out in terms of the statements and what you've said today, that you're trying to destroy the life of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'm not trying to destroy Mrs Mandela's life, I've got no personal problems with her.  There's nothing bad that she did to me in the past, so I've got absolutely no reason to try and ...[indistinct] her.  If there's anything bad that she did to me, maybe I would be doing the same to her now but I've got no personal problem and I don't have a vendetta against her - whatever I'm saying is the truth.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Mbatha, I've just got one question.  In your statement you talk about a Mr Botha Shwala, could you just tell us again when you first met him, how well you knew him and a little bit more about him?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: He was my home boy.

DR BORAINE: In your statement you say that he took you together with Dlamini to the home of Mrs Mandela, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you repeat your question?

DR BORAINE: In your statement you say that Mr Shwala took you and Dlamini to Mrs Mandela's house, is that correct.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

DR BORAINE: Before you got to Mrs Mandela's house, did Mr Shwala say why you were going there?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, he had explained to me.

DR BORAINE: What was the reason?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: He told us that Mrs Mandela wanted to see us and to obtain a gun from Mrs Mandela.

DR BORAINE: You were going to get a gun from Mrs Mandela and did Mr Shwala say what you were going to do with the gun?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, at that time I had knowledge.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] that the gun was going to be used to kill someone?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true, I had knowledge thereof.

DR BORAINE: And who was the person you were going to kill?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I knew at the time that it was a doctor who was operating or had a surgery in Robville but at that time I did not know his surname, I knew it was a certain doctor who had consulting rooms in Robville.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] now, do you know?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: It's 8 years or 9 since I've been in prison, I have no knowledge of Mr Shwala's whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mbatha, in the statement that you made to Lieutenant Page, you talked about a Johannes and you talked about Johannes as if Johannes was the person who was involved in this whole plan with you and again in the statement that you made to the Commission you talk about Johannes,  you say
"They asked me about Johannes, they beat me inside the minibus asking me to point out the house where Johannes stays"
Now, who is this Johannes because in other documents in the court record, mention is made of a Johannes Nglobo, was there a there a third person who was involved with you and Thulani Dlamini in the murder of Doctor Asvat?