Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: That it took three months to process your application to join security branch and that it took ...[intervention]

HENDRIK BOKABA: I, I ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: I'm speaking, now listen to me.  And that it took three months -  I'm not intimidating you, you must listen.  That it took three months, it took three months from the time when you spoke to him in February to the time when he says that he joined security branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm just asking leave to provide Captain Bokaba with the specific copy of the page -  It is my bundle that I handed up to him - just to make it easier and clearer for him.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I see it here, it says 1985 on May, Human Resources Management, Hammanskraal College.

ADV MEMANI: And you say that you do not know where Ngo would have been at the time - you do not know when Ngo left barracks as he did?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo says that he was not actually - he did not actually leave barracks, he was living there until '89.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know, that's what he said.

ADV MEMANI: And that he did not go to the college but instead he
went to join security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: The records say he went to Hammanskraal, it doesn't show that he went to security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I asked last week whether enquiries could be made to ascertain the accuracy of various records and whether, with all the voluminous records that police normally keep, such as pocket books which they fill in and which are kept thereafter, whether something could not be done to ascertain what records there were as to where the applicant was for this period and I wonder whether enquiries have been made at Hammanskraal for example, to ascertain whether there was such a course that started in May 1987 and matters of the nature because it seems to me an awful lot of time is being spent, which may prove to be entirely valueless if there are accurate records showing where in fact the applicant was at the relevant time.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I at this stage - I wanted to do that after Captain Bokaba's evidence but I can just as well deal with that now and explain to you exactly what we have done.  We have succeeded in making contact with Major Jordaan, we - I will endeavour to - when we finish today, have a consultation with him during this week and hopefully be able to provide you with exact information later in the week, around about Thursday, about exactly what his position is
and what he says.  Furthermore, Captain Bokaba arrived at Pretoria a bit late on Friday to be able to get hold of the records.  Colonel Loots and I arrived in Pretoria around about - just after 4 - we were also not able to obtain insight of the records.  Colonel Loots is however today busy trying to find as much information as possible for the Committee and hopefully we will be able to present you with all the evidence that we could succeed in obtaining during this week.  We will do that later in the week Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I would also like to suggest that the TRC investigators be asked to do what they can because it may well be that they find it easier to be given now official access to records and copies of records than persons who are involved in possible transgressions.  And I would urgently request that, that be done because on the applicants version, this is obviously a falsification of his record and if that is so, it may be that people are reluctant to come forward now.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, that would obviously be of help.  We will do whatever we can to assist the Committee and my attorney and I will probably be back around about Thursday or Friday to present you with whatever information we can get.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Bokaba, I want to refer you to bundle B45.  The document is bundle B44 and I'm referring you to page B45 - it's your affidavit.  And the second sentence there - let me read 3.3 as a
whole:
"You say that you deny that you and Constable Selahla were involved in a petrol-bombing in the Mamelodi district where the applicant was present.  The applicant was never a member of the security branch, Northern Transvaal and as such was never a trusted member of the operations of the security police, Northern Transvaal branch at the time".
	Now Mr Bokaba, what would have made you qualify your statement by stating that Ngo was not a trusted member of the security branch?  Let me re-phrase what I'm saying.  The impression I gather from your use of the words: "that he was never a trusted member of the security branch", suggests to me that there was something in your mind about him being a member but not at all - not being trusted altogether as a member.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at paragraph 6.6, it may perhaps clarify your thoughts.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, and if  you read 3.3, it says - the first part of the sentence says: "the applicant was never a member of the security branch, Northern Transvaal and as such, was never a trusted member of the operation".  So, it's just an added part of the sentence which could have been left out really.

ADV MEMANI: Well, what I'm saying to you is that if you did know of any involvement of Ngo in operations of the security branch, why would you have added the qualification of him not being a trusted member?   Why didn't you just stop at saying he was never a member of security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I never worked with Ngo in the rest of my life.  Let me just answer it bluntly as such, I never worked with Ngo in my life and Ngo was never a member of the security branch of the Northern Transvaal.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Bokaba, are you suggesting that Ngo would have gone out on a frolic of his own to go and bomb houses belonging to activists in Mamelodi?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That might be so, that he burnt Mathabathe's house with a personal grudge.  It might happen that even other houses he burnt because he had a grudge with those people.

ADV MEMANI: But he has told us that he burnt Mathabathe's house due to a personal grudge and he has said that the rest he burnt on instructions from Colonel Loots.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me answer that this way.  He said he burnt that house, Mathabathe's house with us, then again he changed that he burnt that house together with his friends.  You may see that even other houses he burnt together with his friends because I don't know
those houses.

ADV MEMANI: Now, which houses did he say that he burnt together with you and later said it was with his friends?

HENDRIK BOKABA: He spoke of Mathabathe's house.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you've just said that he said that he burnt the houses with you and later he said that he burnt the houses with his friends ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: He said he could have, he didn't say - he didn't state it as a fact, he said, he burnt the house of Mathabathe with his friends and he could have burnt other houses with his friends too.  That's how I understood the answer, I don't know whether I'm correct.

ADV MEMANI: The next answer was then that
"I say so because initially he said that he burnt the houses with us and later on he said he burnt the houses with his friends"

HENDRIK BOKABA: That's what he said about Sandra Mathabathe's house because he said he burnt that house together with his friends on a personal grudge.  When initially he said he burnt that house with us, then he changed and said he burnt that house on a personal grudge.

ADV MEMANI: Now, this is what I want you to clarify, where do you take that from?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is the evidence he gave before this Commission,
even my counsel asked him: 
"why you withdrew or you changed your statement"?

ADV MEMANI: Now, you are referring to words he said at page 13?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Which bundle Sir?

ADV MEMANI: That's bundle C, A section.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I have it before me.