Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember anything about the ground floor of the Compol building, any outstanding feature of the ground-floor of the Compol building?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman with due respect, my learned friend is going an a fishing expedition, it appears in one of their affidavits that the applicant would have gone to the building to see Captain Loots.  This is really a fishing expedition Mr Chairman, it doesn't serve any purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: There's a vast difference surely, between going to a building once for an interview and going to a building on an almost daily basis as the applicant says he did and I think counsel is entitled - if he disputes it, I don't know on what basis he does - to ascertain how much he knew about the building that he visited so often.   Carry on Mr du Plessis.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Can you remember any outstanding feature on the ground-floor of the Compol building?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There was a museum there but I didn't pay a visit in that museum.  They used to say there is a museum in that building but I never visited the area.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now Mr Ngo, did Captain Loots ever tell you ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, that is correct Mr du Plessis, isn't it?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct Mr Chairman, yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Mr Ngo, did Captain Loots ever tell you exactly - when he gave instructions exactly what the reason was for a specific attack, did he give you any reasons or did he just give you the order?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, the question has been answered, the second bombing took place because the neighbour organised a protest march against the first bombing.  It has been said time and again.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. Mr du Plessis.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Should I repeat the question?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: When Captain Loots gave you orders, did he ever explain to you the reason of the orders, why did you have to target a specific victim or a house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When we arrived there with Hendrik Bokaba, he used to explain to Captain Loots concerning the conditions in the township.  After hearing that, Captain Loots will give us some instructions that we are supposed to go and bomb Louisa's house.  After that the neighbours, they decided to start a protest - that is Nono Girl, to support the family of Louisa.  After that we went back to him, I explained the conditions that they are intending to plan the march and he told us to go back and bomb the second house of which is the Nono's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngo, I'm not sure if I understand the purpose of counsel's questioning but I think he intends to ask you not only about these two bombing of houses but also of the general practice when Captain Loots gave you instructions.  I take it he told you to do a lot of other things apart from bombing the houses.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible]  We were given so many instructions.  We were requested just to go to the township to see the political activities and if there is a suspect who is in that area, we are supposed to arrest so that we could question and send him to Mr Loots.
	If there was anybody who was organising some activities which will provoke people to cause conflict in the township - maybe he's a good organiser, we were supposed to arrest that person and send him to Colonel Loots so that maybe we could recruit and make him an informer or work hand-in-hand with us, so that we should get more information to know exactly what was happening in other organisations or even to trace them.  
	If we knew how good that person is in politics - where is he going afterwards to do some observations.  There were so many instructions.  All the active members in politics, we were supposed to know exactly what is happening with him, his contact friends and so on.  
	If there was a new member who will accompany him, we'd need to know exactly who was that person and then if we suspect that person is there for political motivation, we were supposed to arrest that person to know exactly his standing point concerning the politics.  Our main issue, it was not just to petrol-bomb houses but we were tracing those people who were a little bit difficult, so we were supposed to harass them, especially those who belonged to certain organisations.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you just tell us during that time in Mamelodi, which organisations were there that caused all the problems?  Can you remember?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There were so many organisations, there was UDF and Mamelodi Organisation, even COSAS, there were members of Trade Unions and Civics, there were so many.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can't you remember any other organisations than those you've mentioned?  Can you remember any other organisations?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Those are the ones I used to know because I used to visit them a lot,  I was trained to get information from those organisations.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo, can you turn to page 10 of bundle A please?  Right, now that is your amnesty application regarding the killing of Mr Venter, I just want to ask you a few questions about this.   Can you remember exactly what the message from Major Jordaan was?   What exactly did the message entail, what was the message?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Myself and who?

MR DU PLESSIS: What was the message of Major Jordaan that you received, explain to us.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He said I was supposed to report to Captain Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Didn't he say anything else, was that all that he said, that you should report to Captain Loots?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He just told me that Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: And then, did you report to Captain Loots?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I did.

MR DU PLESSIS: Alone, or with anybody else?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I was alone.

MR DU PLESSIS: And exactly what did Captain Loots tell you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He said I must proceed to Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: Is that all that he said?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He said I should go to Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: I asked, was that all that he said, I accept that that was all that he said, am I correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He requested that I must go and report in Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now, exactly what did you do then - after he said that to you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I came to Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: How did you get to Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was brought by Dan Bokaba.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you drove in a vehicle, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Hendrik Bokaba, not Dan Bokaba.

MR DU PLESSIS: And in what vehicle did you drive?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's a Ford Sierra.

MR DU PLESSIS: What did you and Bokaba discuss when you were driving to Bloemfontein, can you remember?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were talking about many things, I can't remember what.  I was playing my tape, listening to music.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did Bokaba discuss with you at all, the reason why you had to go to Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, he just received an instruction that he must bring me to Bloemfontein, he never discussed anything extra other than that.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  And do I understand you correctly, your application says that Bokaba dropped you off at the offices of the security branch in Bloemfontein, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR DU PLESSIS: Because I want to put to you Mr Ngo, that Bokaba will testify that he had never taken you to Bloemfontein and in fact that he had never been to Bloemfontein before, until this week.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: [...inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Pardon?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Until the 15th of May of this year.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Do you mean this year?