Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you banked the cheques?  Burnt?  Sorry.

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, we burnt the cheques.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, paragraph 18 ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, how many other people went into the supermarket?  You've said yourself, Ngesi and Sebinzile were to enter, did anybody else enter?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Sibande was standing at the door.  He was looking for something that would come - we were three of us inside, it was myself, Sebinzile and Ngesi, there was no-one else who entered the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the comrades from Welkom?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We shot there and took money.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the comrades who came, the armed comrades who came from Welkom, who you instructed about the target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that, and I'm going back to paragraph 16
"The other comrades from Welkom with the arms on the day of the operation, and they arrived at 8:30.  I briefed them for the first time on the target and they were all familiar with the target.  It closed at 9:00 so we had to rush before they closed."
Do you understand all that from your own affidavit?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, they arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what happened to these armed comrades who had come from Welkom to join you, when they got to the target, when you got to the target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Nothing happened to them, because when they arrived, I told them about the target.  After that we took a car and then we went to this target.  When we got there I was the first person to enter, and then I told the people inside to hold their hands and the other comrades came in, I gave them the order to shoot, we took money, after that we withdrew.  Exactly what do you think happened to them?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not prepared to tell us what the comrades from Welkom did?

MR MALAN: Chairman, may I just ask this question to the applicant, Sebinzile, Ngesi, Sibande and Tshoane, were they from Welkom?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.  Sebinzile, Ngesi, Sibande and Stanley were the ones from Welkom.

MR MALAN: I think that ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Were they the comrades from Welkom?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there no other people from your area, was there only you?   Were you the only people from Wesselsbron, were you the only person from Wesselsbron?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what were all these weapons for then?  Were they kept at - where were they kept?  As I understood, they were given to you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if I may come in, I think he indicated that he took only one firearm and the regional commander returned with the other ones to Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he didn't say Welkom.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well, he did not say Welkom, Mr Chairman, but he only took one firearm.  I asked him why did he take one firearm, he said he was only one, so they have to keep the other ones, so that if anything happens, he's only caught with only one firearm.   I think that was his testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MALAN: Before you proceed to the next paragraph, you said you entered, you grabbed the woman, told the people to put up their hands, the others entered, you ordered them to shoot.  Was that planned in advance, the shooting?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did they shoot all the people present in the supermarket?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Five people died, three of them were injured.

MR MALAN: How many people were there inside the supermarket at the time?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I did not get a chance to count them.

MR MALAN: Were they many?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I think it's this five plus three, five of them died and three of them passed away, though I did not get a chance to count them.

MR MALAN: Okay.  So there were no other people in the supermarket at the time?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It's obvious that there were no other people, because if they were there, they would also be injured.

MR MALAN: No, I wasn't there, but that's exactly what I wanted to find out.  Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, paragraph 18
"We retreated to Mnyagene Location and Sabone and the driver went to Welkom."
	Now, can you tell the Committee where did you retreated at Mnyagene Location and who was left behind?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We went to a place where I was residing.  Sibande and Stanley left for Welkom.  No-one was left behind at the supermarket after that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, are you telling the Committee that Ngesi and Sebinzile did not go back to Welkom with Sibande and Tshoane?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I'm saying Tshoane and Sibande left for Welkom.  Sebinzile and Ngesi were left with me at Wesselsbron, Mnyagene Location, Wesselsbron's Mnyagene Location.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'll go to the last sentence ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Why?  Would you just explain why they were left with you?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We went to give the DLP the firearms.  After that, we went together to meet the regional commander.

MR MALAN: Is he not in Welkom?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Who?

MR MALAN: The regional commander.

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The regional commander was in Welkom.

MR MALAN: Did I understand you that Ngesi and Sebinzile did not go to Welkom, they stayed with you in Wesselsbron?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, after the operation, it's only Stanley and Sibande, I was left with Sebinzile and Ngesi at Wesselsbron.

MR MALAN: And the weapons?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MR MALAN: So when did you take the weapons to the regional commander?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We didn't take the firearms to the regional commander, we took them to George Mazete, we met the regional commander later and we gave him the report and the money, the report about the operation and the money.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I think you also covered the last paragraph, or the last sentence in paragraph 18, now I'll proceed to paragraph 19
"Sibande, Ngesi, Sebinzile and Khotle went to Transkei, but Khotle went to Transkei after arranging accommodation for myself in Kroonstad."
	Tell the Committee how did Khotle arrange your accommodation and thereafter left to Transkei, and what was his reason for leaving for Transkei?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As a regional commander, he knew his area, he had some people that he used to contact with and the same people who would help him whenever he needed some help.  What made him to go back to Transkei, I was the person who was going to take over the Free State, I was going to be the regional commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did you take over the aim as a regional commander eventually?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: No, I didn't take over, because we withdrew and we went back to Transkei, and when we were making those arrangements, we realised that a lot of people have been arrested, then I was not in a position to go back to the area.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, finally, can you tell the Committee the reason why you attacked Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The aim was to fund-raise, because we didn't have financial resources.  As we were trained soldiers, we had to do everything ourselves, so that we could be able to continue with the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You know that people lost their lives in the process.  What do you say to that?  In the supermarket, persons in the supermarket, people lost their lives, so what do you say to that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I know that people died there.  All I'm saying is this, in the war people die.  If we, in that type of a situation, the conditions that were prevailing at the time, it was obvious that the people would die and it wouldn't surprise anyone, because even ourselves, our country was taken by the shed of blood, we were forced to get back our country, our land, with blood, by shedding of blood.