Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can help me and we might save time in the long run, Colonel. There appears to be, from the documents before us, no doubt that Mr Ngo was a member of the police force until his discharge on the 23rd of March 1990.  The question that we are spending time on, is where was he stationed for the last two or three years.  How many people were there in this Unit 19, approximately?

COL LOOTS: Mr Chair, I would have to guess to a very great extent.  They operated from Rosslyn in all the residential areas. I cannot tell you - you refer to their numbers, but I will not be able to help you with that at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it unit that the commanding officer, the other officers would know who the members were?

COL LOOTS: Yes, definitely, they would know.

CHAIRPERSON: So if we were to make enquiries from officers there, we would be able to discover whether he had in fact been part of this unit from 1987 to 1990?

COL LOOTS: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I also see - I don't know, have you got - no, you haven't got the papers in front of you. There is an application for discharge, page 72 of Bundle B, which was signed by Lieut-Col Burger. I don't know if you know the gentleman.

COL LOOTS: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the application?

COL LOOTS: I have it before me, Mr Chair. I do not know Col Burger.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that says that he was stationed at Eenheid 19, Rosslyn, at the top of page 72.

COL LOOTS: That is correct, this is an official police document, SAP221 and it is verified here.

CHAIRPERSON: Because what I would like to draw to counsel's attention and which I think further enquiries might stop us spending so much time on this question, is at page 73, paragraph 7, where it says
"Recommended for re-enlistment."
Sorry, no, the next one, number 7 -
"Conduct becoming.
		Conduct recommended."
Paragraph 7 -
"Conduct very bad. Departmental and criminal transgressions."
Do you see that?

COL LOOTS: It is verified exactly as you have read it now.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would presumably be recorded?

COL LOOTS: Yes, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would show what departmental and criminal offences he had committed over the years and would again perhaps give us some definite proof as to where he was and to what he was doing in that period.

COL LOOTS: Once again you are one hundred per cent correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So I would suggest, gentlemen, that if this matter is of importance, as it seems to be, that arrangements should be made to have enquiries made from Unit 19 and from the officer who signed this, as to the details of the numerous transgressions and where and when they were committed.

MR DU PLESSIS: As part of what?

CHAIRPERSON: As part of what unit he was when he committed these various offences that are referred to.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman ...

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps, at the same time, try to discover whether he was sent back to Hammanskraal or how this entry came to be made, and then we can have some definite information rather than relying on people's memories when they say they don't know, they don't know, that we get someone who must say yes, I do know that, that's my signature.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, we undertake to do that. I have had an indication from Capt Bokaba who is still in the force who said that he will assist us with that.  We wanted to ask the Committee also if one could perhaps try and endeavour to subpoena Maj Jordaan to be available, because that would also perhaps clear up the whole issue. But we will see what we can do.  We will not be here for part of the hearings next week and my attorney and I will certainly try to obtain this information within the course of next week and perhaps later in the week be able to supply you with information or to be able to have the relevant witnesses here.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be fairer if you also made contact with Mr Memani and gave him the information or his attorney, so they can perhaps agree it with you and it might not be necessary to have witnesses or they might want other witnesses here. So we can arrange that before the hearings, so that arrangements can be made. So if you would keep in touch with Mr Memani and his attorney, Mr Mthembu.

MR DU PLESSIS: We will do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions you wish to ask?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Does anybody have any objection to Col Loots
being released at this stage?  I am quite sure if it should become necessary to recall him, arrangements can be made.  Thank you, Colonel.

COL LOOTS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I be afforded the opportunity of calling Capt Bokaba?  Mr Chairman, he has indicated to me that he would prefer giving evidence in Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: That will cause no problems, I'm told.
MR DU PLESSIS CALLS

CAPT BOKABA: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please remember, Capt Bokaba, I think you sat here and saw what was happening here today, that your evidence is going to be interpreted, so don't talk too fast, give the interpreter a chance.

CAPT BOKABA: I will try to do so.

MR DU PLESSIS: May I proceed, Mr Chair? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The same applies to you, Mr Du Plessis.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, my attorney will kick me.  Capt Bokaba, can you for purposes of the information of the Committee, just give us a short overview of your career in the South African Police?

CAPT BOKABA: Should I start where I started with the police?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, please, right from the start when you joined the Police Force, until now.

CAPT BOKABA: It is like this. I joined the Police in 1981, in December, that is on the 21st.  I started as a student in Mamelodi Police Station.  In 1982 I was in the police training in Hammanskraal. I don't remember the date well, but in 1982 I went to the police training college in Hammanskraal. I passed out in 1982, then I was returned to Mamelodi Police Station in the uniform branch. I worked in Mamelodi at that time, since then.  Then on the 1st of May 1986, I joined security branch Northern Transvaal in Pretoria. In 1990, I don't remember the month well, I was transferred from the security branch. I was sent to crime intelligence.  That is crime intelligence unit. Then last year in 1996 on the 5th of August, I started at SAP at head office in Pretoria.  Up to this time I am working.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't know whether it is you moving your fingers and may it affect perhaps the microphone. I don't know, because there is - or somewhere there is something ... Perhaps it is not your fault, it is somewhere there.

CAPT BOKABA: Thank you, Sir. Last year in 1996 I was transferred to SAPS head office.  Up to this time I am still working at South African Police Services headquarters in Pretoria.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right. Now Capt Bokaba, you have heard the evidence of Col Loots pertaining to the units of the security branch, Unit A, B, C, D and E. Do you agree with that evidence?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I agree with that evidence, the way Col Loots explained.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right. Now Capt Bokaba, was there ever a security branch sub-station in Mamelodi where there was a specific office of the security branch somewhere in Mamelodi?

CAPT BOKABA: No, there was no office in that floor of the security branch in Mamelodi.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Captain, we have heard evidence from Mr Ngo and also during the questioning of Col Loots about this office called GOS.  Can you, from your point of view, explain to the Committee exactly what was this office, how did it work and yes, just that, and I will ask you detailed questions.