Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR RICHARD: Now, it's very important for us to know whether it was a simple thing with an aerial on it, or whether there was more to it than that.  From what I understand it was one consolidated thing with an aerial on it, and there was no more to it.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: As I said, this was a transmitter.

MR RICHARD: Now, what I'm trying to discover is whether there was a microphone.  Where was the microphone?

MR DUBE: As I explained, I did not have ample time or enough time to check such details, whether it had a microphone inside, inserted in, or whatever the case, I did not have enough time to look at such.

MR RICHARD: I put it to you that to come to the judgement that it was a transmitter one of the most important things was to find out whether it was a recording device, a microphone.  It has to record, take in the sound.

MR DUBE: I did not quite follow you.

MR RICHARD: To put it simply, if this were a transmitter, for it to work it would have to have a microphone.  You have not described a microphone anywhere on it.

MR DUBE: I was only answering the question of whether or not I sat down and inspected this gadget, but I was certain about the fact that this was a transmitter.

MR RICHARD: I'm examining you as to why you were certain.  Why were you so certain if you saw it didn't have a microphone.  You haven't described a microphone.  How could the thing work?

MR DUBE: I did not talk about whether there was a microphone, but what I said is that I did not inspect this gadget to an extent that I even mentioned anything about the microphone, but I did not particularly say there was no microphone.

MR RICHARD: Now, you say you're familiar with these items.  Had you ever seen one before?

MR DUBE: That item was similar to the transmitters I knew.

MR RICHARD: From where did you know these transmitters that you were familiar with?

MR DUBE: In Angola during the training.

MR RICHARD: Now, these transmitters that you used there, over what distance could they transmit?

MR DUBE: They differ.  They used to differ.

MR RICHARD: Well, this particular one.  How far would its radius of effectiveness be?

MR DUBE: That's my judgment no.

MR RICHARD: I will say that in preparation I made enquiries.  If indeed there were such a device around at that time, the best information I can get is that it's best radius would be about 500 metres.  Would you quarrel with that?

MR DUBE: Yes, I would quarrel with that.

MR RICHARD: On what basis?

MR DUBE: Because oftentimes they're not.  You will find the transmitters the radius that is, does go beyond 500 metres.

MR RICHARD: I'm sure there are field radios that have a larger one, but for, let's take this, I've been given a two-way radio, this thing.  Can you see it?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: How different was the thing that you found?

MR DUBE: It's different in that this one is big, first of all.  Secondly, that one was flat.  Thirdly, the other one from here down there that was the slot or the area where you could insert batteries and take them out, and the aerial also is different, and one other thing that I'm noticing here it had a switch button on the side.  It did not have these buttons that are located upper on that gadget.

MR RICHARD: You described this device this morning as a walkie talkie.  Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said it was similar to.  He didn't say it was.

MR DUBE: I said it's similar to the walkie talkie.  I was trying to give you as broad a picture as possible of the gadget I was explaining or describing.

MR RICHARD: Now, I'll put it to you that no such devices were in use in Soweto at that time.  Would you quarrel with that statement?

MR DUBE: Yes, I will quarrel with that statement, because that I had in my own hands.

MR RICHARD: Did you as MK use anything like that, if you had been trained on it?

MR DUBE: It was my first encounter with that one.  I had never seen something like that in the past, but the use of walkie talkies, transmitters, I did.

MR RICHARD: I beg pardon, did you use them in Soweto at that time, in 1987?

MR DUBE: No.

MR RICHARD: Had you ever seen one of them in the possession of anyone else at the time, in Soweto?

MR DUBE: You mean one of them, one of who?

MR RICHARD: On of these transmitter things that you described.

MR DUBE: Please repeat that question.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever see another transmitter in anyone's possession during that period, 87, 88?

MR DUBE: I don't remember, and I never used to inspect people, or monitor people, if they had transmitters in their possession.

ADV SANDI: Mr Richard, just to go backward about two stages.  Can you explain to me this question to the witness, so such transmitters were in use in Soweto at the time.  Do you mean to say that they were not available in the country?  I don't quite follow the question.

MR RICHARD: I have made enquiries, and I've asked the question whether transmitters, whether they be wiretaps or whatever they described them as, were used in Soweto during 1987.  The best information I can get is while they certainly were available in the world their use in Soweto would have been highly unusual.  I can't say definitely never, but certainly highly unusual.

ADV SANDI: But were they available in the country, according to your investigations?

MR RICHARD: They were, but

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR RICHARD: The best information I can get is that such devices could be obtained probably in South Africa.  I can't say they weren't available in South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: It really doesn't take the matter any further, does it.  Certainly my experience of those days was that some members of the security force were very much more active than others who were able to obtain devices like that while others were not.  One cannot say, it depends very much on the officer concerned conducting the operation just how much personal force he has to obtain things like that.

MR RICHARD: If necessary, which we will see.  We will call evidence on what was available or not.  However, you took the batteries out and therefore you were certain it was not operative.  Why did you find it necessary to break it?

MR DUBE: The first thing that occurred to me was that maybe somebody was listening to our conversation, that is why the first thing that occurred to me was to break that gadget.

CHAIRPERSON: After you had taken the batteries out the gadget would be inoperative, wouldn't it?

MR DUBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the question remains, why, after you had taken the batteries out and it couldn't work, did you break it?

MR DUBE: What occurred to me was that maybe I'll get ...(indistinct) in trouble, that is why I broke it.

MR RICHARD: You say in paragraph 5 you took the transmitter.  Did you show it to the others?

MR DUBE: What was the question?

MR RICHARD: 5 on page 11 you say
"...I took the transmitter"
I presume to the others.  Did you show it to them.

MR DUBE: The person who saw it was Clive because he was the one who was present at the time.

MR RICHARD: And what happened to it afterwards?

MR DUBE: I threw it on the floor and I smashed it with a rock, and I threw it away.

MR RICHARD: Did Dhlomo offer you any explanation?

MR DUBE: What he told me was that it had been given to him, to keep with him at all times.

MR RICHARD: Now, you are aware ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

MR DUBE: I did not ask him any questions thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely when he says to you it was given to me to keep with me at all times you must have said well where did you get it from, who from?

MR DUBE: As I stated before, that as he had that transmitter, and from the way which he resurfaced, as well as because of the political climate at the time, I felt that I would be, or I could be wasting time to ask too many questions because one could easily end up being in trouble.