Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

ADV SANDI: When did they get to know you for the first time?  Were they not also staying in Fort Beaufort?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, they were not residing there at Fort Beaufort.  They knew me when I went to that place.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell them about your previous convictions and that you're now a reformed man who had chosen a new path?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I did not inform them about my past convictions but I just joined APLA.  After joining APLA I was told about the APLA principles and the do's and don'ts of APLA.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone that you have now decided to amend your ways and become a political activist?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: When you join APLA there is a form that is give to you and that form has got a number of questions.  One question is asking you if you are sure that you will never join any other organisations and the fact that you are sure that you won't betray the APLA organisation.  I did that with all my hart.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell your mother for example - I see that in your affidavit you mention your mother, did you tell her that you changed?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I told my mother when I was arrested.  I told her that I was a member of APLA because she did not know.  She did not know that I was an APLA member and then she passed away while I was still in jail serving for this killing of Mr Franciscato.

ADV SANDI: Have you said everything to try and convince us that the offences in respect of which you are now applying for amnesty are different to those which you had committing before?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: You've got nothing further to say to show that your offences were politically motivated?  You don't have anything to say?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Do you mean anything to show that what I did was politically motivated or things that I do now are politically motivated?  I don't get your question, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Is there anything else you want to say to motivate what you claim to be politically motivated offences?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: If you understand me well you can't say everything that I was doing was politically motivated and also include the things that I did before and
you combine them with this.  All the criminal deeds that I did are actually different from this.  That question is not clear.

ADV DE JAGER: After you've been trained and joined the PAC in 1989, you were convicted in 1990 for stealing two motorcars.  Why did you steal the motorcars, what did you want to do with them?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: In 1990 I was convicted for stealing two motorcars?  Where?

ADV DE JAGER: The value was R10 500,00.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: About the two cars in 1990, two motorcars?  I cannot recall anything.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you ever stolen motorcars?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I did steal motorcars before.

ADV DE JAGER: Where and when?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: In Port Elizabeth.

ADV DE JAGER: Which year?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: In 1989 and 1990 I stole cars in Port Elizabeth.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, that is what I'm asking about, 1990?  You were convicted in 1990 for stealing two motorcars.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes.  The cars were used during the operations.  We would take them by force from the white men and give them to the other soldiers of our organisation and they would use them during the operations and leave them there.

ADV DE JAGER: So they're now also - after I've asked you why you stole them, you didn't answer me and now all of a sudden you've come to the conclusion that you've stolen them for the operations.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I said your question was not clear.  The way you asked me the question, the question was not clear to me, that I was convicted in 1990 for stealing two cars.

ADV DE JAGER: Right.  Now if that was so and if you stole them for political purposes, why did you not apply for amnesty for that too?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: It has got nothing to do with politics.  All that those things that are contained in my past record have got nothing to do with politics, so don't include them in this.  My past record has got nothing to do.  I would request you to question about things that are related to politics because I told you that I have reformed from my previous situation of behaviour.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you understood what I told you just now.  You are the person that is making the application, not us and we need to investigate all aspects.  Do you understand?
	Now you told us that those two motor vehicles were stolen for operations, do you mean they were stolen for purposes of political operations?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Sir, if you heard my answer before I said the cars would be taken by force from the white people and be given to the APLA soldiers, APLA soldiers who would carry out operations or whatever with the cars.  It's got nothing to do with politics because we would do that out of our own.  We were not instructed to do so by the organisations, we were just doing anarchy.  That was anarchy.

ADV DE JAGER: So you've stolen the motor vehicles for anarchy, is that correct?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And then you handed the cars to your commanders for use in operations?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Not our commanders.  I said Sir, we would take these cars by force and give them for free to the APLA soldiers because we thought that they were using them during the operations.  There was no instructions for us to do that, that was just anarchy.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, so you've given the cars to the APLA soldiers, is that correct?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, we were giving them for free.  It's not that they asked for them but we were just giving.  Even the MK soldiers, we would just give them the cars for free.

ADV DE JAGER: And they accepted it for free?  They were very glad to get these cars?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I'm not sure if they were glad but they would take the cars if we were giving them to them.

ADV DE JAGER: They would take the cars.  To whom did you give it?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Any person, even if he's and APLA soldier or an MK soldier.   We were the people who were actually hitting the whites and we would give them the cars to be used in the operations because we were civilians.

ADV DE JAGER: Well tell me to whom you gave it.  What is the names of the person you've given the car to?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I cannot remember their names.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you tell us in your application that you were instructed by Mr Dlamini to go and rob Mr Franciscato?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I'm saying here, if you are listening carefully Sir, the instruction that I was given by Tamsanqa Duma, the instruction that I was given by Mbulelo Dlamini from the Transkei, was to, I was told that I would be deployed in Fort Beaufort to carry out operations, to attack and kill the Boers.  Therefore he would hand me over to comrade Tamsanqa Duma's hands and I would listen, I would obey orders from Tamsanqa Duma.  It is Tamsanqa Duma who issued an order for me to kill Franciscato.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you have a look at page 22 of your application?
"On the 1st of September 1992 I received an order from my commander, Mbulelo Dlamini to go and rob a certain Franciscato of Beaufort and take possession of firearms".

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I agree but I think the person who was actually writing there was not writing as I was talking because someone was helping me because I could not write English properly.

ADV DE JAGER: Now where did he get the information that your commander was Mr Dlamini?  Did you tell him so?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: He asked me about the high command and I told him that Mbulelo Dlamini was the high commander in Transkei.

ADV DE JAGER: No, you told him here that on the 1st of September you received an order from your high commander to go and rob Mr Franciscato.