Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I wasn't aware that Mr Bizos was going to refer to this and these were the extracts that we took from the final report, so I thought this would be of assistance to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos can just put his question and perhaps read from the extract and we will ensure that copies of the relevant page and paragraph are made and handed to all concerned.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please listen carefully because I'll have a number of questions to ask you about it.
"The commission finds that the CCB was a creation of the SADF and an integral part of South Africa's counter insurgency system which, in the course of its operations, perpetrated gross violations of human rights including killings, against both South African and non-South African citizens.  The Commission finds that the activities of the CCB constituted a systematic pattern of abuse which entailed deliberate planning on the part of the leadership of the CCB and the SADF.  The Commission finds that these institutions and their members are accountable for the aforesaid gross violations of the human rights."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos, before you proceed.  Sorry to interrupt.  It's on the very last page of this bundle that's just been handed out, Exhibit D.

MS COLERIDGE: At paragraph 4.1.8.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: You must please read that carefully, make sure that you understand it, because I have a number of questions to ask.  Have you read it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, this section, as an introduction before I answer any questions, I would like to say that I can the technical differences of the paragraph and I understand it.  I do distance myself with the method upon which it was said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us try and establish this rule.  I ask you questions and you answer them.  Subject to the Committee stopping me from insisting on a direct answer to my question, or any objection from your counsel, I am going to insist on direct answers to my questions.  The question was, have you read it and understood it?  Is the answer yes?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, may I just say the following?  Mr Bizos, you do not impress me with what you say, you do not impress me at all.  I answer I am free, I have my own right in answering how I choose to.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think, Mr Verster, if you can just please bear in mind that Mr Bizos is now questioning you.  If you could answer the question, it's a fairly simple question and if you could just listen and answer.  He asks - he's got a right to cross-examine applicants on behalf of victims.  If you don't wish to answer a question, or you refuse to, you can say so, but please let's not have this in-fighting.  Mr Bizos ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you read it and understood it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Bizos, Mr Chairperson, I have the right to say what I wish to say.  This morning I sat and listened to things where were said to me before I had something to say.  Now before I answer Mr Bizos, I would like to say what I want to say.  I was a professional soldier of the South African army ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: I will insist, in the interests of the proper conduct of these proceedings, that the witness answers the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please answer the question, Mr Verster.  You can make statements later.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I read it the first time and I understood it 100%.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you one of the persons that is referred to as, I'll use the words of the Commission, were you part of the leadership of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think that is clear from the documentation.  I am answering as I please, Chairperson.  I said I answer the question as I choose.

GEORGE BIZOS: You heard from His Lordship, the presiding Judge, you answer questions directly, Mr Verster.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I answer indirectly, if it is necessary.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will repeat the question and will insist on an answer.  Were you part of that leadership?  Yes, or no.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Definitely, as it is clear from the documentation.  Certainly, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now if you were part of the leadership, please tell us how many operatives there were in the CCB during your tenure of office in the leadership of the CCB, more or less.

MR WESSELS: Chairperson, may I ask what is the relevance of this question with regard to what you have to decide upon?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I expected my learned friend to object and the only surprise is that it came so early, but we are ready to answer the question, Mr Chairman, or the objection, because we will submit and we have written argument to support it, that we are not obliged to confine ourselves to the incidents that the applicants have chosen to ask amnesty for.  May I hand in heads of argument Mr Chairman, in support of the ambit of our cross-examination that we are entitled to?  I have copies of it for my learned friends and I think that we might as well have this - I'm entitled to enounce how many people there were and what ...
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if Mr Wessels has seen this document.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we'll go through it, we'll go through it Mr Chairman.  We have enough copies for everybody and - okay, thank you.
	Mr Chairman, this question was raised at the pre-trial conference where an attempt was made to confine us to questions only on these incidents and my answer was, and I don't think that Mr Martini and I will disagree on that, that I maintain the right to ask all the relevant questions subject to your directions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I haven't read these Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: May we go through it?

CHAIRPERSON: If I might just say that with regard to the structure, exercise etc of the CCB, that may well be relevant, but we don't want to hear the details or the merits of an operation that might have taken place in Botswana or Mozambique, that sort of thing, we don't want to ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: No, we are not going to go into those details but we submit that we are entitled to cross-examine on the structures and what he as one of the leaders has done, in order for you to decide whether he has made full disclosure or not, but don't let me pre-empt the argument, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, your question Mr Bizos, does this not - Mr Bizos, your question about the number of operatives, the one that you've just put to Mr Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that relate to the whole of the CCB or just the Region 6, the internal ...

GEORGE BIZOS: No.  No, everything that fell under the leadership of the witness Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it Mr Verster, if you could just confirm?  You were the - I don't know what the correct term was - the Managing Director or the CEO of the CCB in respect of all its operations, external, internal?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: Just your mike, sorry Mr Bizos.