Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, we are struggling to find it.  That is what I am saying.  It is not the question of sufficiency of evidence.  We are at the stage trying to read the record with magnifying glasses to see whether there is such an application and that is my problem.

ADV MEMANI: I share the difficulty with you, my Lord, but my difficulties, as I have said, I am not, like everyone else, in a position conclusively to deal with this question now.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which makes my, emphasises the point that I am making.  If you, as counsel for the applicant, are not even able to answer that query as to whether there is a clear application by your client with regard to Mr Molefe, it just makes it worse, it makes it even more dubious.  I have a problem about people not coming out clearly and specifying that, look, I have done this, I have assaulted this man, I want amnesty for him.  I have a problem with that.

ADV MEMANI: But, Mr Chair, as I have said, I have conceded that there is a difficulty with the evidence and which I share and, however, my Lord, I have also stated to you that my view is that there is an application or, which was before the Committee about Serame and that is why he was listed as a victim and that matter was led in-chief and it was dealt with under cross-examination.  That is the position which I take of the matter now.   However, I am not in a position to say anything further.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Gentleman, Mr Molefe has told us that he discussed the matter with Mr Motsamai and reminded Mr, and reminded and encouraged Mr Motsamai that Mr Motsamai must make applications for amnesty, disclose all sorts of things with regard to himself.  So, if anything, I would expect that Mr Motsamai's papers would be very loud with regard to Mr Molefe, the man who has encouraged him to make application for amnesty.

ADV MEMANI: Well, Mr Chairman, I understand what you are saying.  I am not, you know, I do not want to mislead the Committee and say I am definite, I am sure that there was an application.  I am saying that this is an incident which, as you are saying, is quite dubious and if you want me to deal with the matter properly then you should stand the matter down, I will go and look through the papers and take further instructions and clarify the matter, because there were many incidents that we are dealing with, I cannot recall clearly what went on during those proceedings.  We are speaking about evidence which was led over three weeks in the past.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I think that would be a matter of argument and you could argue that later, but as far as the papers at the moment, you may convince us to the contrary, but as far as I can see there is no application in this respect and, but it is still open for you to argue it in the end that there is an application and that we should grant amnesty.  If there is no application Mr, the, Molefe's rights would not be affected, he would be able to sue the police and the, your client for damages if he has been assaulted by them.

ADV MEMANI: What I would suggest, Mr Chairman, is that we proceed with other witnesses and that overnight we will deal with the question and I will come back to you in the morning about whether there is a proper application on this aspect or not, in the morning, and you can take it from there.  If Mr Stander then, then it will determine whether Mr Visser's objection is correct or whether Mr Stander is entitled to continue with the witness and the option will be left to the witness to come back if he wishes to.

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct).

ADV MEMANI: That is correct, Mr Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I will continue to bring further prejudiced or disadvantaged people to you for their testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: We do not want prejudiced, disadvantaged people, we want testimony that affects the amnesty application of the two applicants.

MR STANDER: I understand, Mr Chairman, which is in fact true that they are members of the group of people who were arrested in Ladybrand.  Two of them are present here today and I will continue to present these people's evidence and I do not think that there is any question that amnesty is being applied for with regard to these people.

CHAIRPERSON: These were part of the group of 19, are they, who were taken to Fountain ...

MR STANDER: That is correct.  May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think any objection can be taken to their evidence, because it appears, according to Mr Visser's client, nothing happened.

MR STANDER: No, Mr Chairman, but the fact is there is an application for amnesty in regard to Fountain Station for this group.  That is why there is no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STANDER: I call to the witness stand Nthabiseng Lekitlane.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: (Duly sworn in, states).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You can sit down.
EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I will continue to let the witness spell her name for you.  Could you please proceed and spell your name to us?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Mildred Nthabiseng Lekitlane.  N T H A B I S E N G, L E ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Can you kindly spell the name for the sake of the record?

CHAIRPERSON: That is what she was doing.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I am Mildred Nthabiseng Lekitlane.  N T H A B I S E N G, L E K I T L A N E.

MR STANDER: Ms Lekitlane, were you part of the group of people who were arrested when you were trying to skip the country?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Where were you arrested?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were at Ladybrand.

MR STANDER: Where were you eventually taken after you returned to Bloemfontein?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We went to Ramkraal.

MR STANDER: What happened there?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were taken to Voegs Way, I am sorry, to Park Road.

MR STANDER: No, I am referring to Ramkraal, were the  people there prepared to receive you?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We found female policemen, they gave us clothes.  Whilst we were still there, we were then taken, we were told we were being taken to somewhere else.

MR STANDER: And you were taken to the police station here in Bloemfontein?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Did Park way receive you?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We did not stay, we were further removed.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were taken to Fountain.

MR STANDER: What happened at Fountain Street?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: When we arrived Mr Motsamai said to us he had been waiting for us for a long time, he was, he wanted us.  He said we should walk in pairs, a boy and a girl.  He said he was conducting a marriage ceremony.  We were taken to the kitchen, all of us ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you give us his name again?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Mr Motsamai.

MR STANDER: After you reached the kitchen what happened then?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were taken out one by one, everyone one was picked by one person.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were taken to certain rooms, I do not know whose rooms were they.

MR STANDER: Who took you out the first time?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the question.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were, the three of us were taken by Mr Motsamai.  It was myself, my sister ... (intervention).

MR STANDER: The question was who took you out the first time?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were taken by Mr Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: You were interrupted before you could tell us who the third person was.  You say yourself, your sister and who else?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: And my brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mathepelo?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is Mathapelo and Don Letsigo.