Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

MR MALINDI: Is it also not that you fear your co-applicants and the residents of Kwamadala, that there will be reprisals if you would tell what their role was in this attack?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I am not fearful, Mr Malindi, that is not how my fear comes about, I am residing within the ANC, have you forgotten that?

MR MALINDI: And after you heard the evidence that Stikanayo, Timothy Mazibuko, had boasted about raping a woman, did you ask him if this was the truth during the trial?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: You see, Stikanayo, I do not relate to him, he and I do not meet.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, he says "I did not talk to Stikanayo".

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson.   You said that your brother, Themba Mabota, was a thug?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Indeed, I'm not hiding that, I told you that I don't keep secrets, had he still been alive, he would be arrested today and he would be incarcerated.

MR MALINDI: Was he Victor Keswa's friend, Gatese?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I was not Victor Keswa's friend, I was a younger brother to Themba Daniel Mabota, who was a friend, and therefore I regarded him as a brother, and that's it.  He used to give me sweets.   I don't know where he got those sweets from.   He used to steal cars.

MR MALINDI: Themba Mabota, Victor Keswa, who else were in that group or that gang?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Which group, please explain, I don't want to talk about groups that I don't know?

MR MALINDI: The gang that included your brother or Victor Keswa.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Which group is that, would you please explain?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, he never talked about any gang.   Do you want to ask him who else, apart from Victor Keswa, associated with his brother, Themba Mabota, is that the question you want to put?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson, that's the question I want to put to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MALINDI: What Mr Malindi wants to find out is who else was your brother's friend?   We know that Victor Keswa was one of them, who else?

MR MALINDI: Yes, I understand.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: The one other person that I remember to have been Themba Daniel Mabota's friend is Sipalakose.   He only came later and he became their friend, I don't know how they got closer to one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, what he is saying is that the person who joined the group last was Victor Mthembo.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Did you just say that, you said that Victor Keswa and Sipalakose, the person who you do not know how he came to join but who joined last was Victor Mthembo?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.   I don't know how he became friends with them, these people are from the township and he speaks Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Who speaks Sotho?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: They used to speak Sesotho, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Victor Mthembo?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: He too.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Yes.   Themba Mabota's friends, they were all involved in car thefts and other crimes, as you have stated?

CHAIRPERSON: He has not said that, Mr Malindi, all he said is that there were thefts, they were thugs, his brother was a thug.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I object to this line of questioning, because I can't see the relevance.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps Mr Malindi can tell us what is the relevance of whether or not Themba Mabota, Themba Mhkizo, were thugs, were involved in car thefts, to the question whether or not there is full disclosure before us.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, this line of questioning goes along the argument that we may advance that there was criminal gang which was based at Kwamadala, which was terrorising the community, and that perhaps the reason why they were driven out of their township is because they were gangsters and not for political reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that question to him.

MR MALINDI: And chairperson about whether he mentioned car thefts, I'm listening directly to the Zulu and... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR MALINDI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR MALINDI: Mr Khubeka, when I was asking you about the criminal activities of your brother, did you also mention that he was involved in car thefts?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: My brother used to steal cars, not in the township where we resided, he used to bring white people's cars... (intervention).

MR MALINDI: And would you agree with me if I say to you that at Kwamadala Hostel there was a gang involving your brother, Victor Keswa and the others you've mentioned, who were there not because they believed in the IFP, but because they sought refuge there as gangsters from the township?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, I do not agree with that.

MR MALINDI: After you went there to Kwamadala Hostel, did you and Mr Dlamini discuss what happened at the house where you speared this child?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: What is it that I could have discussed with Mr Dlamini, there was nothing that I could discuss with such an old person, I have my own peers with whom I could discuss things.   No, no.   I still maintain no.

MR MALINDI: So, up to the minute that Mr Dlamini mentioned that you killed a child, you had no idea that he might mention that fact?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: You see, I did not know, I did mention this earlier on, it looks like you are going to suffer a hearing problem like myself, I said I did not know that he was going to come up with this piece of evidence, and now that he has, that's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khubeka, when counsel repeats a question to you, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's deaf, he may be laying the foundation for some other point that he wants to ask you.   Do you understand that?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I do understand, I was repeating what I said earlier on.   It was not necessary for him to ask me the same question, because he heard, I answered that.   He's trying to confuse me now.

MR MALINDI: So up to that moment you believed that Mr Dlamini would adhere to their practice of not telling on other members of Kwamadala or members of the IFP?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: As far as I know, I knew or concluded that he would not come up with such things, that's how I concluded myself, not others.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MAPOMA: Did you see any of your group carrying looted goods from Boipatong?

WITNESS: I still maintain that those who looted at Boipatong, I did not see.

MR MAPOMA: I thought when you gave evidence you said when you went into that room where there was a child, you wanted to loot something because you saw others carrying some loot.  Did I understand you wrongly, perhaps?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: You are not making a mistake.   I'm talking about at the time when we were in the township, that's when we were still in the township.

MR MAPOMA: So in the township you saw some of your colleagues carrying looted goods?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I would say so, because I don't know what eventually became of those goods.   These people were carrying some of these goods.   I did not see who was carrying what in our group on our way back to Kwamadala.

MR MAPOMA: Apart from the child that you stabbed, is there any other person that you stabbed?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I don't want to tell a lie again, I did not stab any other person, I was trying to restore that which had been taken away, I did two things there, which two things happened to me.   I would not add anything to that, I would otherwise go mad.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA