Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-05-31

CHAIRPERSON: Morning. I am informed that today's
application is one of those scheduled for tomorrow, but fortunately we were able to intervene and start it today. It's the matter of the application of Jodwana, Amnesty No 6151/97. 
	For the purposes of record, my name is Judge Pillay and I am going to ask my colleagues and those who are involved in this application to identify themselves as well.

DR TSOTSI: My name is Dr Tsotsi, attorney, Port Elizabeth.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chair. Ilan Lax, member of Amnesty Committee, attorney from Pietermaritzburg.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chair. My name is Peter Williams. I'm from the law firm E Moosa, Maigret, Peterson, Cape Town, and I'm acting for the applicant today.

MR MAPITSE: Mr Chair, I'm Tebogo Mapitse. I'm representing the victims from Tanzania.

MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader from the Truth Commission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, are you going to lead your witness.

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jodwana, have you - what language would you prefer to use?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: (sworn and states)

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. Mr Chairman, before I proceed leading the applicant, I'd just like to place two issues on record with the permission of the Chair. The first issue is that I want to place on record that we were formally instructed by the Legal Aid Board to act in this matter only during the course of last week.
	I also received the bundle of documents during the course of last week. I am based in Cape Town and the applicant is based in East London at present. I have consulted with the applicant for the first time yesterday through an interpreter. And I must also put on record that the person who acted as an interpreter was a prison warder who clearly showed his displeasure as acting as an interpreter during the consultation. So I'm just placing that on record for the benefit of my colleagues if there are certain issues which we omit when it might be for the reasons aforesaid. 
	The second issue which I wish to place on record is that although the formal application only mentions the names of Mr B Vaaltuin in respect of which amnesty is sought and another person, the applicant is in fact applying for amnesty for the murder of Penny Vaaltuin and the attempted murder of six others on which he was convicted in the Grahamstown High Court in 1990. And I have discussed the issue with the attorney for the victims as well as the Evidence Leader and they have indicated that they waive their right to take the point that the application is procedurally defective.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it has been our view that it is not procedurally defective because he has indicated there were more than two victims in his application in any event. He says he doesn't know the names of the others.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, I will then proceed to the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me comment on your first point. It is coming now for a long time that issues such as instructions and attorneys' unwillingness to appear unless they're properly instructed and paid has led to delays in these applications. One would have hoped that those who appear for people would do so first and foremost to assist those people and secondly, for remuneration. I'm not pointing fingers at any particular body but it does present a problem of the work of the Amnesty Committee and it is to be hoped that my comments will spread to other people who represent these applicants. I appreciate your comments Mr Williams, and will certainly bear it in mind if and when it becomes relevant.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Jodwana, you are presently 28 years old. Is that correct?
CHAIRMAN ASKED FOR TELEVISION LIGHTS TO BE ADJUSTED

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Williams. You were saying to the witness that he was 28 years old and presently serving a term of imprisonment. Is that correct?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, your Worship.

MR LAX: What is your reply, Mr Jodwana?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you speak English or Afrikaans?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: No, I only speak Xhosa.

MR WILLIAMS: What is the highest standard that you attained at school?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: I only - I went up to Standard - I only went to Standard, Sub A. I did not go further than that ... (intervention

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, you have explained his position. We appreciate it. You don't have lay a basis for this. Let's get to the facts of the matter.

MR WILLIAMS: Just a last issue before I go to the facts. Is it correct that at the time of the incident you were a member of the Grahamstown Youth Congress, which is a body that was aligned to the ANC?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And that you are presently a member of the ANC?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, is it correct that on 30th of October 1986, you were part of a group of people who took the victims in this matter to a certain house in No 1 K Street in Grahamstown where they were accused of being ... (intervention)
MR JODWANA ANSWERED IN XHOSA

MR WILLIAMS: I can't hear the interpretation of what he just answered.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Committee what happened at this house?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Are you referring to K Street?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, the house where you took the victims to.

CHAIRPERSON: You are making application in respect of the murder of one Vaaltuin and attempted murder in six other matters. Where ... (indistinct)

MNCEDISI JODWANA: It took place at Danke.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Danke?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: It is in Grahamstown.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now why did you - was Vaaltuin with those group, that group of people?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Are you talking about Bea Vaaltuin?

CHAIRPERSON: The one who was killed for which you are making application?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, maybe I should just point out here, two of the victims have the surname of Vaaltuin. Peddie Vaaltuin and Bea Vaaltuin. In fact, Peddie Vaaltuin, if I understand it correctly is the person who was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Whichever Vaaltuin, were both, were there two Vaaltuins in this group of people?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, both Vaaltuins were there.

CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't matter which Vaaltuin we're talking about. You understand now? We'll come to specific Vaaltuins just now. So we know what we're talking about, you understand?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Though it is in respect of the victims.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm going to refer throughout to the group as victims and that would include the deceased as well as the other six victims who, in respect of which the accused was convicted. I have explained that to the accused, to the applicant as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jodwana, tell me, how many people were there, of the victims?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: You mean the people that we went to fetch there? There were seven people.

CHAIRPERSON: One of them was Peddie Vaaltuin. Correct?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to him?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: You mean, what happened to him? We went to Mill Flats. We went to Man Flats, a farm called Man Flats. We went to this farm called Man Flats. We went into this farm that had a forest. It was myself and my two accused. We went there with a van that belonged to the area in Rini, Grahamstown.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to Peddie Vaaltuin at this place? Was he assaulted or did he have a Christmas Party?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: You want to know whether he died or what?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I can't hear the interpretation, the English interpretation.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: He was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: He was killed there.