Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm sure if you didn't mention it, I'm telling you that you didn't mention it, you said it was a mistake?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I agree it's a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to know the details of what you told your attorney but did you tell your attorney about it, the assault?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I didn't understand that question?

CHAIRPERSON: When you consulted with your attorney, did you tell him you're applying for assault of Mrs Simete?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I didn't tell him because I was not having the idea thereof, I thought because I'm applying for amnesty because all these four counts where I was sentenced on the same day and they were all grouped together, I thought in the application I'm applying for all those counts, that is why maybe I didn't inform my attorney about that because I thought everything was - all charges were included.

CHAIRPERSON: And that explains why he never raised it.
Anyway, carry on.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Now I put it to you that the reason why you failed to mention this assault GBH count to your attorney was the same reason why you put the wrong birth date on the form and that is to make your liability smaller than it actually is?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: So maybe if he can repeat?  Sometimes I tend to be confused when I'm being questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you confused about?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: More especially because this case I'm applying this amnesty happened long ago so when I'm being questioned sometimes I get confused although sometimes some of the things I have forgotten.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, I want to tell you something in your own interest.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I want to tell you something in your own interest, that you're not sitting in a court of law now.  We are not going to sentence you, do you understand.  I explained to you yesterday that one of the requirements necessary for the granting of amnesty is for you to make a full disclosure in respect of the crimes you committed for which you make application for amnesty, do you understand that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not confused about that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No with what you have just explained, I'm not confused about that.

CHAIRPERSON: And if we are going to find that you did not make full disclosure or that we can't believe you, then we are going to refuse amnesty, do you understand?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So let's cut out all this nonsense about forgetting and being confused and why didn't tell your attorney certain things etc.  Let's not blame him, do you understand?  If there are acceptable reasons why you didn't tell him then tell us.  Well let's not beat about the bush because many other people who are in jail.  We are going to try to complete most of those cases so that they can get out of jail because we haven't got time to beat about the bush about being confused etc, etc, we're busy with important things here.  There are thousands of people still in jail who could possibly get out, do you understand?  And it's in your own interest to make full disclosure.  Now let's get on with it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I will move onto another aspect.  Okay, let's talk about the meeting that you had.  I presume that meeting was held on the same date than the murders were committed, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes it's correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now at that meeting you decided that because you can't enter into rent boycotts and things like that and therefore you decided to attack people who participate to work with the government, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now what I want to know is, if you now want to hurt or injure people that participate to work with the government and to further the causes of the government, why didn't you for instance attack a police station?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because it was difficult for us to go and attack a police station because the police were always armed during those days and we were armless.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, so why didn't you attack the local magistrate's office?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because even there in court police are always there with guns so we thought they would see us and then throw teargas on us or shoot at us.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, so why didn't you attack a local school because there are also government employees at that school?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because teachers who were teaching in those schools were not part of the people, we thought they assist the rulers of those days for an example the going out of the rulers to the Sangomas to get medicine so that they can have more powers and be respected at work and that they ensure that their government is not disturbed, it means that it was not possible for us to go and attack mistresses and the teachers because they were not falling under that category.  The people who we were intending to attack were people who were giving rulers medicines which makes those high officers to protect themselves and to protect the government by those medicines because it was ruling, using medicines or muti.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you believe that, did you believe it is so that the government members used witches and witchcraft to protect their own power and to strengthen themselves.  Did you believe that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't you say so, why didn't you testify that.  Whole of yesterday or whatever period you were sitting here yesterday and some of this morning your attorney was asking you, I asked you, the panel has asked you, why didn't you confirm it then?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Maybe it's because I was not understanding the question properly.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand the question now?  Same question?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I think I understand it now.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Mr van Rensburg you have more powers than I have.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I doubt that Mr Chairperson, but I'll try.
	I want to ask you an easy question.  If you now did believe that a member of the government could go to a witch and get some muti there in order to strengthen him or protect his position and if you believed that really worked, why didn't you and your group go to a witch and get some muti to protect you against that power?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It was difficult for me because I was not prepared, but those days I was not thinking of promoting witchcraft that is why I didn't just think of going to the witchcraft to help me in that day but then I never believed that the witchcraft can assist me in that way, that is why I didn't go there.

CHAIRPERSON: So what made you believe they're assisting the politicians?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because high members of government which was ruling here in Venda were able or I think what I believe is that they used to go to the witches and the witches informed them that if they want to have high position or to be rich or for their government to remain intact, they must go and kill a person and attack the parts of the person and bring them to me and I will make them with muti then your things will be in order, that makes us to believe that high officials and the government of the day were working hand in hand with witchcraft and Sangomas.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask you the question again.  Do you believe that witches have these powers that they say they have?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes in Venda or in Venda culture we agree.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about you.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I agree, I believe.