Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-09

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start today's proceedings, can we place on record that the membership of the Committee has changed and now consists of myself, Judge Wilson, Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax.
	Could the legal representatives put themselves on record please.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I appear for both the applicants.  I am an attorney, S Samuel.  I'm assisted in these proceedings by my request, by Mr Ndlovu from the offices of Mr de Klerk.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  My name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: What is going to happen now?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, we're ready to proceed with the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Are you calling the first applicant?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He appeared to indicate in an affidavit that he wished to withdraw his application and not to appear.

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, Mr Chairman, but that - what appears to be a contradiction in his position will be explained by him in his evidence.

MR LAX: Mr Ntanzi, do you have any objection to taking an oath?

N D NTANZI: (sworn states)

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, may I proceed?
	Mr Ntanzi, you have made two affidavits to the TRC, which one do you stand by, the first affidavit or the second one?

N D NTANZI: The second one.

MR SAMUEL: For clarity are you saying that you, do you want amnesty, do you request amnesty from this Committee?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I seek amnesty.

MR SAMUEL: Now the first affidavit you made was the, was made on the 8th of April 1997 and in that one you requested amnesty ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Samuel, just for the record, that is the actual application form which is attested by the applicant at the end of it?  Just so we don't confuse ourselves.  That's the actual application form, the affidavit is a separate document.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you for the guidance.
	Do you stand by your initial application form, that you want you amnesty?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I do seek amnesty.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Ntanzi.  Will you explain to this Committee who the deceased was in the criminal trial that you faced, was he related to you?

N D NTANZI: He was my brother.

MR SAMUEL: Okay, when you say brother, do you mean blood brother?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Now what were the circumstances under which he was killed?

N D NTANZI: There was violence in 1993, there was fighting between the ANC and the IFP.  Some unknown persons would visit my brother.  I did not know where they came from.  At that point IFP people were dying and I was puzzled at what was going on.
	The people that I was with at Luthuli where we held our camp, we met and discussed about what we should do because there were people who were regular, be coming to my home.  I expressed the opinion that there was nothing I could do or say but we would just discuss the issue.
	It was discussed and decided that my brother should be attacked because IFP people were being killed and no-one knows who is responsible for that.  Then we went to carry out the attack, it was myself, Nkosinati Ngwenya, and Mfana Neyao.

MR LAX: Can you just repeat those names for us please, we didn't catch them as you said them quite quickly and the translation wasn't that clear.

N D NTANZI: Vana Wenaywo, myself and Nkosinati Ngwenya.

MR SAMUEL: When you say Mr Nkosinati Ngwenya, who are you referring to?

N D NTANZI: The person who was my co-accused.

MR SAMUEL: And he's the second applicant in these proceedings?

MR SAMUEL: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: How many of you altogether went to your brother's house to carry out this attack?

N D NTANZI: There were three of us.

MR SAMUEL: Proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your brother's house, was this your family house?

N D NTANZI: Yes, it was.

MR SAMUEL: For some clarity on that, did you have one house in which your family lived?

N D NTANZI: Yes, we stayed in one house.

MR LAX: I think what Mr Samuel is asking you, was it a homestead with different huts or different rooms separated, or were they all in one, like a four-roomed house or a six-roomed house or whatever the case was?

N D NTANZI: It was just one big house.

MR SAMUEL: Okay, proceed, tell us what happened when you went to carry out this attack?

N D NTANZI: We met at Ntuli's house, we discussed and then we went out to carry out the attack.  When we arrived there were other people with my brother and they fled and there were gunshots fired from the neighbour's homes.   I knocked and my brother opened the door and Nkosinati Ngwenya shot him.

MR LAX: I just want to check something, Mr Samuel, if you'd kindly allow me just to interpose.
	You say that there were other people with your brother who fled when you arrived?

N D NTANZI: Yes, they fled and only my brother remained.  He closed the door and I knocked on that door and he opened it, at which point Nkosinati Ngwenya shot him.

MR LAX: Okay.  Just hold it.  You said that there were shots fired from the neighbour's house, explain that for us a little bit.

N D NTANZI: There were gunshots fired in the area in the evening and some unknown cars would arrive in the area.  After the death of my brother the people were free to live in peace because these unknown persons did not frequent the place any more.

MR LAX: Mr Ntanzi, we're ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We're not asking about general questions, we are asking about what you have just said
"The other people with my brother fled and there were gunshots from the neighbours' houses."

MR LAX: Just so you understand, we're asking you to explain what you said to us as part of the attack that night, we're not asking you about generalities, about what happened in general terms before your brother died.  You were describing to us how you were attacking and what happened on that night, so you were telling us that on your way to attack, these people saw you coming, they fled, your brother went into his room, he closed the door, you said there were shots from the neighbours' houses.  That is what we are asking you to explain.  The impression you gave is that that happened contemporaneously with you attacking.  Do you understand what we're asking you?

N D NTANZI: I knocked on the door and Nkosinati Ngwenya shot at him ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Ja, we're asking you about before you knocked on the door.  You said to us in the earlier part of  your evidence that you approached your home, these people fled, these unknown people fled the area, your brother went into the room and closed the door, you said there were shots from the neighbours' houses.  That is what we are asking you to explain.  Who was shooting at who at that point in time?  This is before you got to the door and before you called your brother and the door was opened.

N D NTANZI: It was unknown persons.  When we actually arrived they were on the yard and my brother was inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us there were shots from neighbours' houses, who was shooting when you were coming towards your house?

N D NTANZI: I think it was those persons who were actually fleeing from my home because we had already seen them.   When we approaching they were on the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is not what you said, you said those people fled and there were gunshots from neighbours' houses.  You didn't say those people fled and fired shots as they ran, or anything like that.  You're changing your version now.  Were there shots from your neighbours' houses?

N D NTANZI: There were shots fired because there was a war.  When we approached, they fled and there was shots fired.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did they flee?

N D NTANZI: They saw us approaching unexpectedly.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they standing outside?

N D NTANZI: Some were standing outside on the yard and some were inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were there?

N D NTANZI: It was a group of people, I could not estimate how many there were.

CHAIRPERSON: And they saw three of you approaching?