Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR STUART: You said in your evidence in chief, that you attended over a period of time, meetings of the Inkatha Central Committee. Was this policy, unspoken policy you have mentioned, acknowledged or a common understanding at those meetings?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that the policy was divided into two like I have indicated.
	I would give you another example with UWUSA.  Inkatha believed that they were against violence.  There was a team, among teams the one to which I am referring, used to be based at Prince Msheni Hospital.
	Their duty was not according to their policy, because as they were there, they were to stir trouble and disrupt meetings that were organised by either COSATU or UDF in Durban.
	That was something they did in a very bad way.  This was orchestrated at Prince Msheni, that is one example I can give you and there was once a meeting held by either UDF or COSATU where people died.  People were called upon to come and disrupt the meeting and this they did in my presence, and when these people arrived there, (indistinct) enforcement had not yet arrived, and they found themselves facing UDF and there was fighting and these people died.
	They went to a meeting to which they were not invited, this is yet another example to reflect on the policy.

MR STUART: The next area I want to touch on is one of strategy.  You have spoken about a strategy which was embarked upon of targeting selected targets, and then in a relatively careful operation, eliminating those selected targets.
	You have also spoken about a strategy, a much broader strategy, a less discriminating strategy to essentially kill and plunder and to assert power and to terrorise areas.
	I am dealing then with those two strategies you have spoken about.  Did those exist at the same time, or was there a period of time when there was the one strategy and then a later or earlier period when there was the other strategy?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say these strategies worked equal way.  If there was a need to follow the strategy to kill one person because it was thought that the person was an influence in the area, that is something else, that one particular person would be targeted.
	There is also the other strategy to remove people from an area because one organisation would want to be the only one in charge in that area.

MR STUART: The next area I want to deal with in the incident of the derogatory remark when you were driving through Claremont.    When you were driving through and you heard this remark, did you know if any of the pedestrians were armed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR STUART: Could they have been armed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: They could have been armed, they could have not been armed.

MR STUART: The final point which is more really a question for the record and for the members of the Committee, I have here the transcript of your testimony before the Goldstone Commission and it is reflected on the transcript that that hearing took place on the 2nd of June, 1992.
	There was some attempts to try and put a date on, it says so on the record, does that concur with your recollection of when it took place?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: No further questions, thank you.

MR STUART: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stuart.  Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr Luthuli, I want to concentrate on the manner in which the so-called eSikhawini hit squad would receive their orders to kill.
	Can you elaborate on that for me?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say the eSikhawini hit squad was controlled mainly by the local leadership.  I did mention this yesterday.
	Prince Gideon Zulu, Bebebeyela, Mrs Mbuyasi and Nkosi Mataba and others whose names I have forgotten, were among the leadership in those areas.    These are the people who gave orders to the hit squad as to who they wanted to be removed in the area. 
	A person who was directly responsible, was Captain Langeni.  I am not saying I am just assuming because when (indistinct) came with Romeo, Captain Langeni, myself and Mzimela and Gideon Zulu, not at the Inkatha office or at somebody else's house, we were in Captain Langeni's office, in Parliament, the KwaZulu Parliament.
	That is what I can say.

MR WILLS: And your recollection of that initial meeting, the initial meeting when Mr Mbambo was there, the meeting that you are talking about at the KwaZulu Legislative Assembly buildings, it was absolutely clear to you as I understand it, that both Mr Mkhize and Mr Mbambo were given the impression in no uncertain terms that their job for the Inkatha Freedom Party would be to kill opponents of the Inkatha Freedom Party, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct, but I would like to explain.  	Quna Mkhize and Romeo Mbambo arrived at Mzimela's.  Quna Mkhize was under M.Z. Khumalo's control.    He was, that is M.Z. Khumalo was the first person to ask Quna as to how trustworthy Romeo was and that was in the IFP office at Ulundi.  M.Z. Khumalo, Langeni and myself, there were three of us.
	We haven't spoken about Mzimela, you know, the MP in the then KwaZulu Parliament, having started from the Inkatha office, because Quna Mkhize was under M.Z. Khumalo and on coming back to tell M.Z. that I have already woken Quna up as he was asleep at eSikhawini, he is saying he doesn't trust other Caprivians who were present.  He therefore would venture to recruit his own members.
	These two things clearly indicate that there was nobody who would argue that they did not know that Quna Mkhize were engaged in these activities.  They would sometimes discuss things at the rallies and he would be taken by Gideon Zulu and he would be happy about it.  I would not longer be able to get hold of Quna after he had left with them at rallies and there was no way that people could not have known what they were up to.

MR WILLS: So, obviously at the same time, did all the persons who were present at that meeting, not only Mbambo and Mkhize, but all the persons present at that meeting, and that includes Prince Gideon Zulu, I think you mentioned Mr Mzimela, that is Robert Mzimela?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: M.Z. Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Captain Langeni?

MR WILLS: Yourself?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Would have known clearly that they had authorised and embarked upon essentially a formation of a death squad that would be utilised for the killing of IPF opponents?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct as I have already indicated.  People might deny because nobody wants to own up to guilty deeds.  But people knew very well what was going on.

MR WILLS: Now, just referring to the issue of the direction of orders, as I understand your answer to a question asked by Mr Ngubane, that you personally did not give orders to Mbambo, Mkhize and that hit squad to kill specific persons, my understanding of the evidence is to the effect that you were well aware of the fact that these orders were in fact being given, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, as I have already explained that the eSikhawini leadership  were members of the Executive, the Inkatha Executive and these members were always in touch with me often times.  Therefore, I was not just thinking or dreaming about it, I knew very well that these people were working according to the orders of the Central Committee members, not the Executive.
	They would not have just gone out to do what they pleased, without being told to do something at a particular place.