Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — UNKNOWN

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman just one aspect which, before I waste any more time perhaps these questions, the chairman yesterday put some questions as to the direction that the applicant ran towards the river.  I just want to enquire whether the Committee is quite certain as to how he ran an and whether we should clear that further up?

CHAIRPERSON: Well we can't say we are certain as to how he ran, we can say that we do understand what he's telling us.

ADV VISSER: Well I think then it might be better if ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But if you want to make sure that we understand it correctly, it's up to you to make sure of that. It maybe that we understand whereas we don't.

ADV VISSER: Mr Sehlwana can you tell us.  Where did you bring the vehicle that you were driving, to a stand-still?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I brought the car to a stand-still on the cement block and then on the other side it was sand but I stopped the car at the cement block.

ADV VISSER: So am I correct in assuming in concluding from that you stopped at, can I put it, in the middle of this river, the dry river.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

ADV VISSER: From there can you just tell us how you ran when you opened the door?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I explained that when I opened the door, immediately thereafter, I ran alongside the combi in the direction behind the combi. Then I heard somebody say don't do there, take another direction. Then I ran along the river.

ADV VISSER: To your right?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I was still on my right-hand side along that river.

ADV VISSER: Sorry Mr Sehlwana, maybe that was confusing. From the right-hand side did you proceed away from the right-hand side of the combi?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I explained that immediately after opening the door, I ran alongside the combi to the direction of behind the combi, then I heard somebody saying, don't take that direction, change your direction.  Therefore, thereafter then I ran on my right-hand side along the river.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry isn't this river running from east to west? Do you know the cardinal points?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It is from this direction to that direction, I stopped in the middle of the river...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, when you say from this direction to that direction, you pointed east and then west, which is what I was asking you.  I was asking you isn't it so that this river was running from east to west?  If I'm wrong you should tell me.  Do you know where east is? Are you familiar with cardinal points?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It's from the north direction to the south direction.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you are going from where?  From east to west or from west to east?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was from the west direction, from Botswana direction.

CHAIRPERSON: From west?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you were from West to East and then you stopped in the middle of the bridge.  Now did you run to the south or to the north?  And if this question is confusing you, you must tell me.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I understand the question correctly now.  I ran westerly where I came where I came from, from there I turned north according to the direction, the instruction.  I was running to the west direction, therefore I discovered later that I should go, take the southerly direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that please Mr Interpreter.  Can that be repeated please.

INTERPRETER: I was asking him to repeat so that I could say it correctly.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was coming from the west direction and when I went outside the combi, I pushed the door, then I ran again to the west direction, then I learned according to the voice I heard that I should turn to a southerly direction where the river was, along the direction of the river to the south.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I'm going to give you a piece of paper I think to solve this and you must indicate on this piece of paper the direction of the river, where you were coming from and where you ran.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I'll be glad.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry let me have that paper back for a minute.   I'm going to indicate cardinal points in the way that I think you best understand them.

ADV VISSER: May I interrupt Mr Chairman.  I just remembered that one of my clients gave me a map.  It may be of some assistance to you. Can I hand it in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

ADV VISSER: We've only got the one copy, we weren't going to make use of it but it may be of some importance. Let me just see, there may be notes on that thing.   We can hand that in Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Visser, I'm not going to give him this because it depicts the opposite cardinal points to what the witness is saying, I think it will confuse him.  Let him give us his own version.  If you look at that piece of paper, I have drawn up cardinal points in a way that is more or less in line with your version, in the way which I understood you.  You said you were moving from west to east.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.  It is written the way, I could even write it the same way you have written it on paper.

CHAIRPERSON: You see that the river as you said is running from north. Do you see in there, to the south, do you see that?  And then in the middle of the river the combi stopped on a bridge.  Do you see a combi there?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I see the combi.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that set-up? Now ...(intervention)

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I understand it well Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just draw a line, a dotted line, you get out of the combi, you go in a wrong direction and somebody says to you you are going in a wrong direction, you turned and then you ran to what you say was the right direction. Just dot that line of yours up to the point where you stopped.  A dotted line.
	So you moved towards the south in the end, along the river?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes once I was still on that cement block.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja well after you got out of the combi.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

CHAIRPERSON: We will mark this Exhibit C, thank you.

MR ROSSOUW: I may place on record Mr Chairman, that apart from the precise points of the compass that is what our evidence will be, it coincides exactly with what the evidence of the other applicants will be.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Rousseau I think the point has now been cleared.  Exhibit C will then be the map as drawn by the witness, Mr Sehlwana.

MR ROSSOUW: As the Committee pleases.

ADV VISSER: Mr Sehlwana just one last question.  You said that you heard somebody when you brought the combi to a stand-still asking where you were going and that voice came from inside the combi. Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The one who said to me, where are you going, that voice came from the Combi.  Then there was a second voice again saying, those who were outside, somebody said, don't take that direction. He was seeing me getting out of the combi.  There was a certain voice again which was in Afrikaans which said don't take that direction, take the other direction.  Then I did as I was instructed.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman I have got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to give you Exhibit C again and ask you to indicate by was of an X as to where the injured person was when he was interviewed.  Just mark X.
	Well the witness has indicated that the injured person was lying on the left-hand side of the combi as it was proceeding to the east, in other words on the northern side. He has marked it with several X's and as far as I understood his evidence this was exactly in line with what he told us.
	Mr Sehlwana ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Is this a bushy area?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes it's a bushy area.  The river was surrounded by many trees.