Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Bizos, sorry, in relation to what you've been saying for the last few minutes, I think, if we do find that, surely if we do find that the Applicants have met requirements for Amnesty, we would have to grant them Amnesty.  In fact the Act says we have no discretion.  It says we must.  If it so happens that people like them happen to be let loose, it may very well be the folly of politicians who created a machinery through which such people can be let loose.
	Surely if we find that they have met requirements, surely we must let them loose, even though we may feel that they may form a clique somewhere in Krugersdorp, we must.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I agree fully.  I merely say that you take those factors into consideration in assessing, in assessing the sort of person that we have before you, as in relation to motive and in relation to proportionality.  That even at this stage, that even at this stage, they wallow in pleasure in hearing Mr Clark insulting the Commission and I'm not saying for one moment that insulting the Commission is a ground for refusing amnesty but it's evidence of their thinking processes at the time that they committed their act, their thinking processes in relation to motive, their thinking process in relation to the proportionality.
	What I'm saying is that what they have shown themselves to be and what they are likely to do in the future having regard to their behaviour here throws light on what sort of persons made this decision to assassinate and for that reason they are not entitled to Amnesty.  If they comply with the other provisions, if they were authorised, if they've made full disclosure, if it is found that it is not disproportionate, then obviously they are entitled to it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you are saying no more than that these people have not met requirements for Amnesty and they shouldn't get Amnesty.  I have no problem with that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what I say is, that it's not irrelevant to have regard, what after all this, what their present feelings is and going back and say, these are the sort of people that committed this act.  I agree that, I agree with respect that, insofar as I have made, been understood to say that what I said as I peroration was a ground for refusing Amnesty that I do not advance it on that basis.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Because it is important for us to dispel any notion that even though the Applicants may meet requirements for Amnesty, this Committee would have refused them Amnesty because of this and that and that, it is important to dispel that notion.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I would associate myself Mr Chairman fully with that and particularly, particularly about certain misconceptions that there are certain acts that no amnesty should be given at all.  We do not subscribe to that, we do not make this submission but what we do say is that the character of the people that you have before you and the attitude which they have shown to the conduct of these proceedings throws light of what they were thinking about then.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: These tapes that you mentioned in passing that you would like to view.  Is that some arrangement that you will make as soon as we have adjourned here?

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: The tapes, or those portions of the tapes that you would like to view.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously arrangements will have to be made elsewhere because there doesn't seem to be that facility here.

GEORGE BIZOS: No Mr Chairman.  We will arrange with Counsel for the Committee, for the Commission to make them available to our instructing attorney and she can have the pleasure of looking at them and if there is anything there, we will submit a note within, is two weeks too much to ask for Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I am expecting a response from Counsel, they haven't had adequate time to go through your Heads of argument and they are going to deal with them and they've asked me for just a little time until next week to submit their written reply to what you have said.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will submit it by Friday of next week Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson that would be in order by the following Friday we will have submitted it as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, it is placed on Record that Counsel, both sides, will make, at any rate, Counsel for the Applicants will make their final submission in response to Mr Bizos' argument by Friday next week and that after viewing the tapes, Counsel for the Applicant is of the view that our attention should be drawn to some part of the tapes.  They would also reduce that to writing and let us have that by Friday of next week.

MR WILSON: Counsel for the Applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel for the Applicant.  I'm sorry, Counsel for the family.  Thank you very much.  We have come to the end.

MR WILSON: I have spoken to one, well to both of the Counsels for the Applicants and indicated that it would assist us if there are any other portions of the tapes that they think we should have regard to, that they should also notify us.  So far we have been told, I think only a portion of Tapes 8 and 9 but if there are any other tapes, we would invite both parties, both Counsels to draw our attention to them.
	I gather it takes quite a long time to look at all 21 of them.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to place on Record that Mr Mpshe, you will take possession and control of all these tapes and if the need arises that any portion of those tapes is to be viewed by members of the Committee, you will make the necessary arrangements.
	The Committee has now concluded hearing evidence and argument, oral argument in this matter.  I have already mentioned that Applicants' Counsel may submit by Friday further written arguments.  The Committee will in due course, after it has received the submissions, consider the entirety of the representations that have been made to us and arrive at it's decision and will then make it known.
	The Committee now adjourns.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS