Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: According to my perception we took them as thieves.  They were supposed to be taken to prison because they were corrupt so there was no need to tell them that we wanted Brig Gqozo to resign.  When Brig Gqozo had resigned we wanted them to be in prison because we'd not be part of the new South Africa with thieves, because they would corrupt our new government that we wanted to vote on the 27th of April.  Those are the issues that came up when we were in that meeting.  That is why today I'm here asking for amnesty for those issues, or for what I have done or for what the police have done to them, those who had pointed them with guns and those who had slapped them, if they were slapped, because instructions were coming from me sometimes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now what caused you people to kidnap them instead of approaching them and saying "look, we want you to join us in Bisho, we've got this plan".  Why would you kidnap them, point them with firearms, traumatise them and their families?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: As the person who was not present when they were taken from their homes or offices, I don't know what their reaction was, I don't know how they were approached by these police, but what was important at the time, we wanted them there in the hall, so I don't know how they were approached or what happened, I don't know what resulted to them being pointed with guns, I can't answer for that but what I know is that the police were armed on that day, so it might be possible for them to be pointed by guns, maybe some of them are lying, I don't know, maybe they were assaulted, I don't know, because there were groups that went to fetch them.  The people who went to fetch them can be the ones who would answer the question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did it come to your knowledge that they were kidnapped?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: It came to my knowledge in the morning that some of them were pointed by firearms.   In the morning when we would get a report that we would find such and such a person and then we would ask how did you approach this person and they would say that no, he refused to come with them so they had to take such actions.  So that is why today, I'm asking for forgiveness that they were taken in such ways.  Maybe some of them were taken by pyjamas, if there was such a person who was taken by pyjamas because those police were instructed by me sometimes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that when they were taken hostage at Bisho police college hall they were never asked not even one question which was politically related?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: How could we ask them about political issues because there was nothing involving them with political issues, but we wanted them to be on our side because we wanted Gqozo to see that all the police are on our side, on our objective to remove Gqozo because if you would reach Brig Gqozo you had to go via the officers.  So as a junior member, it was difficult to even have access to the colonel because you have to via the captain.  In the police force you have different steps, but that day we didn't care about that, we wanted all the police in there because they had force numbers and we also had force numbers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that by 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon on the 22nd you had about three quarters of the whole police force in the Ciskei at Bisho police college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Mostly it was the junior police, the officers were the ones who were fetched.  I can agree with you that three quarters of the junior police were there, not the officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And would you then agree with me that with that number of policemen, of junior policemen, it was impossible for senior policemen or senior officers, to have arrested the junior officers who were there in the hall?  It would be impractical for them to arrest you people there?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: The senior officers as the people who are close to the president or to the leader of Ciskei, they would be able to go to Brig Gqozo and tell him that they were on his side.  Maybe the South African Police would be sent because they were just near, they were in King William's Town.  Police from King William's Town would be taken.  We as Ciskeian police were very few as compared to the South African police because they would call police from Stutterheim, King William's Town and East London and we wanted even the police from South Africa, if they would be asked to come and arrest us, they would see that officers were involved in this, even though we didn't tell the officers, the informants that is.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On your application, still on 9 sub-section 4, at page 3 you say
"Officers were taken as hostage.   At first but all the way we knew that our objective was to remove Brig Gqozo from power"
Now, the impression I get from that is that the officers were first taken as hostages and then all the other things followed.  Am I correct in my interpretation?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: The officers and their hostage issue and issues that followed, they were parallel to each other because we were not going to be able to take officers as hostages and then on the other side Gqozo was mobilising that this should be disrupted.  We wanted this to be hand in hand because you cannot focus on one issue, so they were going hand in hand.  So these things were parallel to each other, they were going hand in hand.  Yes indeed officers were taken hostage, but at the end we had achieved our objective, Gqozo resigned.  So it depends on that particular officer, what time he had arrived in the hall.  Even those who didn't arrive we took them hostage because we went to their houses to fetch them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that it was never communicated to Brig Gqozo that the officers were held hostage?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: He knows about that he can even come to this Commission, but I as the person who was part of that delegation, we had told him that all the police were involved in this.  When I am referring to a police, I'm talking to a person with a force number who was trained as a police.  We told him that all the police had gathered in the college, they want to see him.  They wanted him to go there to address the police.  Brig Gqozo is aware of that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, I don't think you understood my question.  It was never communicated to Brig Gqozo that officers of the then Ciskeian police, were held hostages.  Am I correct?  So that he can step down.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: What I'm saying is, Sir, we wouldn't be able to say to Brig Gqozo, such and such people are there as hostages.  It might have been that we had told him but I think that he could see that we had told the soldiers at the gate to go to their camp, so he could see what was happening because when we arrived he told us that the police and the soldiers were against him.  He had phoned Pik Botha, so he knows that when the junior officers had overthrown, he knew what was happening, because he took power by overthrowing, so he was aware that there were people who were taken hostage when this was happening., so we took the police to Radio Ciskei because he would go to the - Radio Ciskei announced that the government was being overthrown and people's property would be burned down, and people would be killed.  We didn't want that to happen.  We wanted this to happen in a clean way, so there was no need to tell him that there were people who were kept there as hostages.  He is a military personnel so he knows when an overthrowing of government is happening there are people who are taken as hostages.  We had told him that all the police are in the college, they want to see him.