Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MR BRINK: Well, the account give here suggests that it was while you were attending on the problem with the car's engine, that the disarming and the shooting took place?  What do you say about that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I agree sir, that is during that time that the car was jerking, and we were perturbed.

MR BRINK: But the account given by your co-applicant suggests that you were attending on the motor car's engine, fixing the problem when the disarming and the shooting took place, whereas you have just testified that you opened the bonnet and were looking at the engine after the shoot out was over?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you reading on page 58?

MR BRINK: I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that say that they were working under the bonnet?

MR BRINK: Well, Mr Chairman the language used is the car started to give us mechanical problems.  While we were concentrating on that, both policemen disarmed one member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, six of one and half a dozen of the other, isn't it?  I don't know, you can argue the point if you feel strongly, I am just saying that from what is written here, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were busy under the bonnet?

MR BRINK: Indeed, it is a matter I will pursue in argument.
	To take you back to what you said in your evidence in chief, you said after the shot went off, you alighted and you took cover.  Where did you take cover, how did you take cover?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We got out of the car after we had stopped it and we took cover with the front of the car.

MR BRINK: And you said in your evidence in chief, that you saw the police shooting outside the car, do I understand that they were then standing outside the car, shooting?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, I admit I said that.

MR BRINK: Where were the police firing, in which direction, in whose direction?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: They were shooting, as it was dark, they were shooting towards us, however with the cover that we took, we also started shooting towards them, or at them.

MR BRINK: Were  you and Luyanda (indistinct) then in front of the vehicle, taking cover?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir, what do you mean sir?

MR BRINK: Were you taking shelter in front of the vehicle to avoid the gunfire?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Were you standing upright, or were you ducked down below the level of the windscreen, out of sight?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, we were not really bowed down as such, we were standing on our two feet, we were just trying to hide.

MR BRINK: Were you shooting ...

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Were you finishing off a question sir?

MR BRINK: Were you shooting in the air or were you shooting at the two policemen firing in your direction?
	I ask you this because it appears to me that a portion of the vehicle's body, was between you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were shooting at the police sir.

MR BRINK: Is it correct that a portion of the vehicle's body was between you, separated you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I don't understand your question well, when you say there was a car between the police and us, what exactly do you mean?

MR BRINK: I understand from what you have testified, that the police were outside the vehicle and you took cover by sheltering in front of it.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is correct, sir.

MR BRINK: Well, how was it possible for you to fire at the policemen if you were in front of the vehicle?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Okay.  The police sir, used the side door which is close to the front door.

MR BRINK: In what manner did they use it?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: They got out, running sir and then they started shooting.

MR BRINK: All right.  Is it your evidence that they fired a few shots off and ran away?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Sir, when people are shooting at each other, you never count the shots because it was just chaos and war.
	They shot at us and we were defending ourselves, and we shot them too.

MR BRINK: Did both men appear to be armed?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Well, one of your - if the Panel would bear with me - is it Luzuko who was disarmed of the firearm that he was carrying?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: That is how one of the policemen came to be in possession of a firearm?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The one took a gun from the floor of the car and started shooting.

MR BRINK: Are you saying that there were guns near the feet of the two policemen as they sat in the vehicle?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: You said that it was very dark that night, is that correct?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, it was dark.

MR BRINK: Was there any moonlight at all?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

MR BRINK: Was it a pitch black night?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Were you able to see the silhouettes of the two policemen as they fled from the vehicle?  Could you see their forms?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes, you could see the silhouettes sir.

MR BRINK: By what light?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: There was no light sir.

MR BRINK: Well, how was it possible to see their fleeing forms?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Because sir, they were not too far off.

MR BRINK: You testified that you chased them for a distance of about 55 metres.  I put it to you that the two policemen never ran that kind of distance at all, in fact it is going to be my contention put later to you, I will put it now, they didn't attempt, the policemen didn't attempt to flee at all, they were simply shot and were found dead between five and ten paces from the road side, from the road way?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I dispute that sir.

MR BRINK: Would you be able to dispute that the bodies of both men, were to put it plainly riddled with bullets, they had numerous gunshot wounds visible?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Do you agree that they had numerous bullet wounds, or do you - what are you saying, you do not know?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It could happen sir, that they were riddled with bullets, but we did not see their bodies.

MR BRINK: I am instructed by the brother of Sergeant Mbhele, Bekhi Mbhele, that he examined his brother's body at the government mortuary and he found the following:  bullet wound in the chest, four bullet wounds in the back, and the grouping of five on his brother's forehead.  What do you say by that, would you dispute that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I would not know sir, I didn't see the post-mortem report.

MR BRINK: Yes, it hasn't come to light.  In addition, I am instructed that two of the fingers of Sergeant Mbhele's right hand, were dangling, all but severed.  You wouldn't know about that, would you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I don't know about that sir.

MR BRINK: And I am instructed that Sergeant Mbhele's front teeth were broken.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I don't know sir.

MR BRINK: I put it to you that there was a violent struggle in the Bongweni police station which accounts for the presence of buttons from the police uniforms, found on the floor.  What do you say about that, and your version of your peaceful departure from the police station, is untrue?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I do not agree with the fact that there were buttons missing, but I do admit that we did say that we were going to leave with them.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman and members of the Panel, those are my questions.

MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No sir, no questions, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination?

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair, just one question.
	Mr Nyembezi, did you or any of your colleagues get anything in the form of a reward for the actions you did on the day in question?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair.

MR NOTUNUNU: .

ADV GCABASHE: No questions, thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We will adjourn for lunch.
COMMITTEE  ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Notununu?