Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: I lifted her up.At that time her father was still there. I took the child into the yard. AsI was getting into the car I saw Joe Mamasela standing direct opposite my kitchen.He was standing at the fence that divides our houses. He had a revolver in hishand. I went into the car, I got into the car. I asked my husband to rush mychild to the hospital. As we were driving away we left Joe there and went tothe hospital. When I felt my child's pulse she was still breathing. We wentto the hospital. At the casualty they resuscitated my daughter They took herto the theatre, because at that time there were no doctors at the casualty.She was having emphysema, she was getting swollen, so she was taken into thetheatre. I went out to tell her father what was happening. I went into the theatre, I got the doctors resuscitatingmy daughter. I saw them throwing their hands, indicating that they couldn'tdo anything to help my daughter. We went back home.

DR MAGWAZA: This is a very, very painful time for you. Just take your time.We'll give you the time. (Pause) I'd like you to tell us more about what washappening in this time. Why was your little girl caught up in this crossfire?And why was Joe Mamasela there that particular time?

WITNESS: On that Saturday whenmy daughter died it was a funeral of a certain Comrade who was staying closeto us, and apparently Joe Mamasela had killed that Comrade. I would like myex-husband to help me wherever I don't have a clear recollection of the events.

MR LYSTER: Thank you. Are you the father of the younggirl who died.

MR SESELE: Yes, I am the father.

MR LYSTER: I see. Okay. Are you just here to supportyour ex-wife? You're not going to give evidence yourself?

MR SESELE: Ja, I am here to support her.

MR LYSTER: Okay, then it's not necessary to swear youin. Thank you. You can just be there to support her. Thank you, can you pleasecontinue.

WITNESS: Joe Mamasela had killed the Comrade on a previous week on a Saturday,and the following week there was a funeral. The aim of these Comrades was toburn Joe Mamasela's house after the funeral of that Comrade. At about 5 o'clockthe Comrades were coming with petrol bombs, and there was absolutely no fighting,children were playing outside. This group of Comrades threw the petrol bombsinto the yard of Joe Mamasela. These petrol bombs came from the direction of the opposite houses. They threw the petrol bombs in Joe Mamasela'syard. Joe Mamasela went out and he shot at random. He shot at the opposite directionfrom where the Comrades had thrown the bomb. He just shot at random there.

DR MAGWAZA: The question also which I would like topursue is it looks like it is a continuation of something, some conflict thatwas taking place. The day when the other boy was killed, what was happeningat that time? You said the other boy had also been killed by Joe Mamasela? ---Ja, the previous week.

DR MAGWAZA: The previous week, yes. What was happening at that time whenthis boy was killed?

WITNESS: I can't remember well.

DR MAGWAZA: (Inaudible) ... can't remember, but I just wanted to get asense of what was all this tension, and why was Joe Mamasela reacting in thisway.

WITNESS: Can I ask Mr Sesele to help me?

MR LYSTER: Mr Sesele, is there something short thatyou wish to say? If you're going to say something I must ask you to stand andtake the oath.

RANSEHU SYLVESTER BERNARD SESELE: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much. Could you just restrictyour remarks to that which your wife is not able to remember?

WITNESS: Okay. On thisparticular day of the killing of my kid I can't really say what happened withthe previous incident that happened the previous week, but there was so muchof a commotion by the SAP with the same Joe Mamasela in the same street. Theywere running around, and when we inquired from the neighbours it was alleged that Mamasela had killed one boy somewhere down ourstreet at a shebeen, and the cause thereof I really can't say. It was just whatwe heard that happened the previous week, on a Saturday too, before the killingof my kid the following week on the 3rd of January 1987.

DR MAGWAZA: Joe Mamasela was your neighbour. After thekilling did you speak to him, or did he speak to you about the killing? ---I last saw Joe Mamasela on that Saturday when I was coming from the hospital.He never said a word to me. On Tuesday we left for Kroonstad to bury my daughter.I last saw him when I was coming from the hospital.
You have said that there was a court case in your statement.Can you tell us briefly what happened?

MR SESELE: On that particular day there were a lot ofcases, and what really puzzled me is the manner in which the Magistrate wasso - I am trying to look for the right word. He didn't actually care for anycase, and all the cases that were put forward to him his statements or his remarkswere all of them were dead because they were drunk, because there were casesof cars and so on. And every one of the deceased was drunk, and I was just waitingfor him to tell me whether my kid, an eight-year kid, was also drunk when shewas shot by Joe Mamasela. They way he was seated, you know, it was just a don't-carattitude from the Magistrate. I had on my own to call him to order, that hedoesn't know what he's speaking about in this particular case, whether he reallyknows what he's actually talking about regarding my kid, and whether he knowswhat happened to my kid. I told him that my kid was shot, and that's why we were there at court. He had now towake up from his seat, with all respect to this Commission, and he said he wasgoing to arrest me for contempt of Court. I stood up and I said to him, "Goon and do it immediately." The prosecutor had to intervene, and he had to correctthe magistrate, telling the Magistrate exactly what my case was all about. Andit was said that the killer or the killers were unknown up to this day.

MR SESELE: Did you have a lawyer acting on your behalf?

WITNESS: No.

MR SESELE: Do you still have details on that case, the Magistrate andall the proceedings?

WITNESS: Yes, the court case I have.

MR SESELE: The details of the court case?

WITNESS: Not the details, just thenumber of the case.

MR SESELE: Okay, you have - has it been submitted to the Truth Commission?--- I am not sure. Yes, it has been submitted.

MR SESELE: Okay, thank you very much.

MR SESELE: This has been quite a very tragic, tragic story. What's moretragic to me is the way it affected you as a family. I can see that Mrs Seselewas profoundly affected, and I would like to know, when you are ready, Mrs Sesele,if you will just let us know what changed your life, how your life has changed?How as your life changed by this tragic incident?

WITNESS: Since my daughter's deathI am very confused, I am depressed. There's absolutely nothing that interestsme. They are my children because I brought them up, but there seems to be nothingthat interests me in life. I am always forgetful. (Pause) There'snothing else.

MR SESELE: (Inaudible) ... pick up one issue which you mentioned, thatthe death of your daughter did affect your relationship with your husband atthat time.