Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-22

BEKI XABA: Yes.  I assisted he murderers.

MR DRAHT: And when you assisted them did you know that they were the murderers of a certain person?

BEKI XABA: As I explained earlier on, at that particular point I had not, I bore no knowledge of that, I did not know anything to that effect.  To an extent that at the Court of law I did hide the fact that I was already made aware that they had murdered, but subsequently I got to know fully, and I realised what a mistake I have committed by protecting them at the Court of law.  I think I should have disclosed of all the truth at the Court, but unfortunately did not happen that way, and that's all I would say that I had limited knowledge at that time, but subsequently I got to know of all the facts.

MR DRAHT: Did you know the person that was killed that day?

BEKI XABA: As I said, I did not know the person, and I had not met the person or with the person, although I'm not sure if I ever once came across the person.  I did not know that particular person.

MR DRAHT: Did you later on find out who was it?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat your question.

MR DRAHT: Did you later on find out who was killed that day?

BEKI XABA: Yes, that was after they had told me, these other colleagues of mine told me at Court.  They also told me when charges were pressed I was told as well that it's one of the people in the area that I did not know fully well.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Mr Padi, your client's name was mentioned here.  Any questions you want to ask?

MR PADI: I have no questions to ask.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, representing an interested party in these particular ones at this stage do you have any questions?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you.  Mr Xaba, were you a member or a supporter of the IFP?

BEKI XABA: I was a member of IFP.

MS LOCKHAT: A member.  A registered member?

BEKI XABA: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: I believe on that day of the funeral there were 2 000 to 3 000 people present.  Why did you say you didn't want to attend the hearing, if it was such an important day for the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean funeral, you said hearing.

MS LOCKHAT: Sorry, excuse me, at the funeral.

BEKI XABA: Please repeat the last part of your question again.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was why didn't you want to attend the funeral, particularly taking into account the fact that it was such a large funeral.

BEKI XABA: Firstly I would say that it was not necessary, that's the way I looked at it, for me to attend it and I did not as well think it was such a big event or funeral.  Secondly, I had other engagement and appointment that I had to attend to, to go fetch a child somewhere.  But after I realised that it would have been, it would be appropriate for me to attend the funeral, I then figured I should postpone the fetching the child, or go around it, and attend the funeral.  So that I had other committments that I had on that particular day, not that I was coerced or expected as much to go to the funeral.

MS LOCKHAT: You mentioned Mr Mazibuko was the person that told you to swop cars.  Is that correct?

BEKI XABA: Yes, he's the one.

MS LOCKHAT: What did he tell you?  What was his words when he spoke to you?  Did he give you a reason why?

BEKI XABA: His words would be, go and drive my car, this one will be easy for me to drive since it's my brother's car, but mine has a minor problem, very minor as compared to this particular one, I assume you will be able to drive it with less problems than this one.  So that as a driver I had confidence in myself that I would be able to find my way and kney my way in that car.  And we were going to the funeral.

MS LOCKHAT: Did he tell you, you know, that the people in the car had committed an act and you were to help them out and assist them?

BEKI XABA: No he did not make mention of that fact, he only said go and drive there.  I think he had hoped that they will tell me, they will take responsibility and tell me.

MS LOCKHAT: You said that you understood that it was a matter of urgency, and that you had to escort the people out by driving the vehicle.  Is that correct?

BEKI XABA: Yes, that did cross my mind, although I had not, or I did not have a clear understanding as to where it was stemming from.  You see when a person tells you that this is the situation and please drive immediately ...(indistinct) and leave the area, I took it that way, but they were not as harsh, if I may say.  They were also not forcing me, or exerting any pressure as such, for me to rush, but still I would have done it at any rate.  However, they, I, they had this request of me to rush and leave and drive off immediately.  I did as they instructed.  It did not occur to me that I should immediately now leave the area.

MS LOCKHAT: So is it correct that your intention was just to drive persons, and just to be a driver in that sense?

BEKI XABA: After I was inside the car and they told me that, that became now my intention, to transport them from this point to the next.  And I did not know as to what they would say further on our way, but they had not said a thing at that point in time, they only said let's drive immediately because there's something that we've committed.

MS LOCKHAT: My next question is just to your amnesty application, page 2.  You just, where, it's paragraph 10, the, your justification for regarding such acts, ommissions or offences as associated with a political objective.  You said there,
	"...in fact I don't understand but the Judge convicted this case and made it clear that the case concerned is political."
Is it to your knowledge that you don't understand, that according to you it's not really political in your case?

BEKI XABA: Are you asking a question or, I don't quite understand?

MS LOCKHAT: I think I just, just looking at this, it says here justification for regarding the act as political, you said you don't in fact understand, but the Judge at Court actually said that you know this was related to politics.  But do you think that this matter, you being the driver of the vehicle, did you see your act as political, and that you were furthering the cause for the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want to ask him what he means by those words before you put words in his mouth?

BEKI XABA: Maybe I'll have to explain or elaborate on this issue, especially what you've made mention of now.  According to me on that day, even today, I will like to reiterate this fact, that what happened, what I did, was political.  First of all, they my colleagues that had to be assisted that day, were IFP members.  What makes me to say this, it is because those were people who were always following Mazibuko.  This must be referring to as the owner of the Colt and he was as well IFP member.  So that when he had told me to go to his car, it did not occur to me to question any further.  I only went there since I knew he was IFP as well.  I was offering help to these people and in the Court I felt the same way and also shared the same sentiments with them as well.  And those are things that happened and they remain like that.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you.  In your affidavit, page 6, at paragraph 20, you said
	"...I was quite amazed by the fact that I was arrested.  I did not know what I had done."
Kindly explain that.

BEKI XABA: With reference to that then, maybe it would require of me to find out as to which application are you talking about.  Could it be the third or second one?  So more light could be shed on my search.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, you signed an affidavit Mr Xaba on the

MS LOCKHAT: 12th December 1996