Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

MR VAN DER MERWE: The question is merely the following.  Did you accept this information to be the truth, this information coming from your comrades, did you accept it as the truth?

N JACK MENERA: I did explain before that I would not doubt what I am told by my comrades but firstly after that I would investigate that kind of information to verify as whether it is the truth because I heard from the police and when I was in court I met my fellow comrades and they verified that that was true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Do I understand you correctly, any information then which was given to you by your colleagues, you investigated afterwards to acquaint yourself of the truth?  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: I would not explain in a different way more than I did explain.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The question I just want to ask is, you didn't just accept what was told you to be true, you went to investigate it, always?

N JACK MENERA: I did explain to you that for the first time I heard this allegation I heard it from the policemen.  After that I went back to the comrades to enquire as whether this has happened.  I want to tell you something.  In Brandfort, it is a small township. We would know everything that happened last nigh, even if we didn't see.  If somebody did something during the night, in the morning we will know.  There was nothing that happened which we didn't know.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm going to repeat my question. If I've understood the evidence correctly, you according to your own evidence, after any particular incident, and you'd been informed about it by your colleagues, you went to investigate it to confirm whether it was true or not?  Or are you saying something else now?

N JACK MENERA: Let me try to give you this answer, maybe you will understand.  The first thing, I didn't have that right to go and investigate in the first place from the police as to...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Menera he is not asking you about this one incident. He asking you what your normal practice was, because you told us three minutes ago that I believed what somebody told me as a comrade, I would investigate such information to discover it was true.  You have been asked by Counsel, was that your normal practice? If you were told something would you investigate to see if it was true?

N JACK MENERA: That's correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm indebted to you Chair.  Therefore I can then accept that you wouldn't just merely act on information given you, but you would take this a step further ?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr van der Merwe I think you can accept that he is saying that he received information and then he made certain, or didn't make sure but he tried to verify the information afterwards.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm again indebted to the chairperson. Am I correct Mr Menera.

N JACK MENERA: Yes you are correct Sir.

MR VAN DER MERWE: At the time of the second case involving dynamite which you testified about in '91 and '92, you also testified that you heard about this.  You mentioned that you were in prison at the time, is that correct or not?

N JACK MENERA: Are you referring to the arrest of Mr Phelane because of the explosive?  I heard you talking of 1991, I want your questions to be very straight Sir, I want to answer you straight.  Now I would appreciate if your questions are very clear and straight so that I can give you a relevant answer, because like the question that you are asking now, I do not know which answer to give because you say there was a dynamite issue in 1991, what are you actually talking about?

ADV DE JAGER: He's talking about the second dynamite charge against Mr Phelane, the second instance of dynamite found at Mr Phelane's house, he's dealing with that matter and he's asked you, when that matter came before the court, were you in jail at that time and that's what he wants to know?

N JACK MENERA: I indicated already that I heard this from a policeman who transported me to court from prison.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Menera, you testified that according to your understanding this case was withdrawn against Mr Phelane, is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: Yes and that is my knowledge.  We were arrested and I wanted to know the end of this case because I was in prison but my comrades told me that they do not know what happened to this case.  All this information was said to me while I was in jail.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr van der Merwe, really what is this story about this case?  Are you wanting to put it to the witness that Mr Phelane denies that he was ever arrested with that?  In which case you can just simply put it him or deny that the case was withdrawn against him, in which case you can just simply put to the witness.  I mean we are talking with somebody who was in jail during that time.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm indebted to the Chair.  That is what I am trying to get to.  Mr Phelane will come and testify that the case did in fact continue, that he was found not guilty, he used the attorney company Webber and Webber in Bloemfontein and he instructed them to assist him in this case.  Advocate Laubscher was the person who defended him.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any comment on that Mr  Menera?

N JACK MENERA: I don't want to stand against him and I am happy to hear that it is true he was in possession of dynamite but the case was dismissed. Let me just leave it there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think just leave it there.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Chairperson.  During your evidence you testified that Edward had stormed on a group of school children with his vehicle at a high speed.  Is that correct.

N JACK MENERA: Yes it is true.  Edward Phelane did such an act.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The reason that you have given is that he didn't like the song they were singing.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: Yes they were against the freedom songs.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who were against the freedom songs?

N JACK MENERA: Phelane and his gang.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The gang to whom you are referring, who were the members of that gang? I'm speaking about Mr Phelane's gang?

N JACK MENERA: Rabana Mudsi was a member, Dada was a member, Bhuda and the second Bhuda, Koliki and the other who I do not know their names.  But the ones I've mentioned were the co-leaders in this gang belonging to Mr Phelane.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Phelane will deny when he testifies that he ever had such a gang.  I'm referring to Mr Morgan Phelane.

UNKNOWN: When Mr Phelane is referred to it's Morgan Phelane, and Edward Phelane is referred to as Edward Totsidikhoto Phelane.

N JACK MENERA: I do understand that Mr Phelane is going to stand against the issue of owning a gang, but let me shortly tell you this. He was unfaithful to the community and there is nothing that he's going to say here that will appear as truth to the community.  Everything that happened to him was because of not having faith and he was not trusted by the people.  Those who knew him as an activist, I told you already that they knew him as a member of the ANC, but what he was doing in Brandfort, is a different story, they led to the incident that took place.  When he comes here and says Jack you are lying, I won't stand against him because since long ago he has not been faithful.  It's not going to surprise me when he appears here and says everything I'm saying is lies.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Menera you have frequently, when you have given evidence, spoken about the community as if you can speak on behalf of the community, that is so is it not?

N JACK MENERA: Don't lose temper with me please.  I want to explain this.  I was asked a question by the judge as to whether I ask for forgiveness from Mr Phelane.  I said shortly, no Mr Morgan Phelane did wrong against the community, that is what I said to the Judge. I'm not speaking on behalf of Jack Menera, I am standing here on behalf of the ANC and the Youth League as the whole.  I thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Was Mr Phelane a councillor?