Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just respond to a simple question.  You said nothing, you did not object to the constables participating in the assaulting of detainees because it was a conduct that you expected of them.  You approved of that conduct, yes or no?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes we used to do the same act.  I did not prevent them.  I should have made a mistake there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	One of the previous witnesses gave evidence to the effect that it was part of the strategy of the police at the time to have these detainees interrogated by different people and at different places.  Do you agree that that is the correct situation?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it's true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you, as the person in charge of the interrogation, was the one responsible for arranging that support, the other policemen to come and interrogate them in terms of that policy, isn't that so?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat your question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You, as the investigating officer in charge, was responsible to see that there were enough men, these young constables or whoever, arranged, in order to proceed with the interrogation along those policies of changing frequently and changing the places.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before he answers Mr van Rensburg, is there any evidence that he was the investigating officer in charge?  Isn't the evidence that Mr - I think Mr Ramushwana was the one who was charged with this kind of investigation and the person who worked immediately under him was Mr Ramaligela.  You would only be in charge in the absence of Mr Ramaligela.   So it would be unfair to put that kind of a question to him.  Rephrase your question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	During the times then that you were in charge of the interrogation were you not also the person responsible for arranging for these young policemen to come and relieve you according to that policy of many policemen interrogating the detainees?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It was not a policy, it was only because if - it was not a matter of calling them.  We were working together.  We only differ when it goes up to the higher levels.  But we were working together in the same office.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have also said that the interrogation took place at different places. It wasn't always in the same office.  Now if a detainee was going to be interrogated at some place other than at that office were you involved in arranging the policemen or organising who was going to do that interrogation at any stage?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No it's not true.  I didn't do that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now who would be responsible for such arrangements in those circumstances?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember exactly who used to do the arrangements.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg.  Ms Mtanga do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

MS MTANGA: Yes I do Chairperson, thank you.
	Mr Managa would I be correct to say that my understanding of your evidence and that of Mr Ramaligela, you, Mr Ramaligela and Mr Nesamari were the central people in interrogating and torturing the victims mentioned in paragraph 15 of your affidavit, your supplementary application?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: True.

MS MTANGA: And that your interrogation and torture was focusing on the suspects for the bombing of the police station, am I right?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well that was about investigation as to who was responsible in bombing the police station.

MS MTANGA: So will I be correct to conclude that the three of you were tasked with the interrogation and investigation of that bomb attack?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: So any suspects who would have been arrested on suspicion of being involved in the bomb attack would have come under your team, am I right?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes, it is true, they could have come to us, yes.

MS MTANGA: Is it correct then that Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela were also part of - they were also suspected of bombing the police station and were placed under your team for interrogation and torture?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well during the investigation we discovered that they were also linked.

MS MTANGA: And you also interrogated them and tortured them like other suspects, am I right?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Not inasfar as we did with Mr Farisani.  I don't think - yes torture is torture, we can't really distinguish between - but I think it was worse with regard to Mr Farisani.

MS MTANGA: Did you torture Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela Mr Managa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well personally I didn't torture Mr Mahumela.  I don't dispute with regard to Mr Chikororo.  I might have done that possibly.  However, when it comes to Mr Mahumela well I didn't do anything.

MS MTANGA: I am putting it to you now that Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela will give evidence that you were the person, together with Mr Ramaligela and Mr Nesamari central in their torturing.  You even went on to pull Mr Mahumela's beard.  And you were also involved in the pulling of hair of Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana from their head and from their private parts.  Do you deny this?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to their private parts I don't think it's true.  When it comes to Mr Poswana I do agree that I did pull his hair.  With regard to Mr Mahumela no I didn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry Ms Mtanga, you say with regard to pulling hair from the private parts you don't think it's true.  What does that mean?  Does it mean that it may be true but you can't remember doing it or are you denying that you pulled hair from their private parts?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well it might have happened, I can't remember.  I might have....

SISI KHAMPEPE: You know I am personally finding your evidence to be personally confusing and disconcerting.  You keep on saying it could be true, it could not be true.  We are here to deal with facts.  We are here to deal with something that you can particularly remember pertinently with issues involving how people were tortured.  That's the offence for which you are seeking amnesty.  We need the facts.  We need you to make a full disclosure in relation to those facts.  If you don't we can't give you amnesty.
	Now did you torture Mr Mahumela by pulling out hair from his private parts, yes or no?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to his private parts I didn't touch - no we didn't reach the private parts.  Well maybe with regard to Mr Poswana I remember pulling his beard.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am talking about Mr Mahumela for now.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you torture him at all?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I didn't torture, I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you ever present when he was interrogated by the other members of the investigating team which were tasked with investigating the Sibasa bombing?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well you know sometimes I was there, other times I wasn't there, but most of the times I was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you witness him being tortured by any of your members?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't recall that.  I can't say I saw them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Managa are you able to say to this Committee whether the people you have tortured in your career at the Security Branch, whether they are only the victims who have appeared before this Committee, are there other people besides them whom you have tortured in your career? ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you respond, where is that getting to Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I will come to that Chairperson.  Alright...