Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

DR RANDERA: Mr Makgala, I am going to stop you there and and perhaps we can ask some questions to clarify what happened at Rooigrond.
 Can I just say if there people who feel more comfortable with these headboxes I think there are some headboxes available still so that you can understand what is going on.   
 So if I can just take you back please to 1963.  Your history is - and you have been very, very clear on giving us that history so far, but I just want to ask a few questions.  So if I can take back to 1963, you were 23 years old and you said earlier you were a member of the PAC.  Are you still a member of the PAC?

PHILLIP MAKGALA: That is true Sir.

DR RANDERA: Can I just get the perspective from you as to your beliefs in those days in 1963, and I know it is a long time ago, your own beliefs as well as the organisation you belonged to in terms of what was happening in South Africa at that time.

PHILLIP MAKGALA: May you please repeat the question Sir.

DR RANDERA: I want to find out your own perspectives on your beliefs on the political situation in South Africa at that time and if you can tell us something about what the PAC's position was.

PHILLIP MAKGALA: In 1963 the PAC was helping the Youth League of the ANC.  There were some disagreements between us as the Youth and the older men like the President when they told us what their objectives would be when they govern one day. That is what made is to deviate from the ANC and join the PAC.
 The second thing is that Mr Sobukwe who was our leader at that time, when he addressed we felt that maybe his governance would be better than that of the ANC.  What made us feel that way is that by then we were given a wrong picture.  I say it was a wrong picture because we were given a picture of what communism was and we felt that if the ANC was working together with the Communist Party, it would not put forward the objectives of an African or an Black African.  We did not agree to their principals and we could not support them.  We wanted South Africa to be only governed by Black people, because we thought by then that Africa belonged to Black people.  And that is how we understood the picture that was given to us and that is one of the things that caused us to deviate from the ANC and became the PAC.  
 When on my own I started realising what was the Communist Party meant and the ANC, I started realising that we were given a wrong picture about them - that is the 
ANC and communism.  All that I knew is that when you referred to as a communist, you have no property or belongings, even your children and your wife was to be taken care by the Government under communism.  You do not have any control over your property even though if you worked, you would only be paid through food.  That was what was told to us.  That is what caused us to deviate from the ANC and the Youth League.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, can I stop you there again?  Can we just go back, can we just go on a little further.  After your release from prison in your statement you talked about the fear that the communities, and I think you came back to this Rustenburg area, lived under in the sixties and also in the seventies, can you tell us something about that?  Almost as if you were ostracised as well because you were someone who had a political history, by your own community.

PHILLIP MAKGALA: Yes it is true, Sir.  When I came back from prison, I was afraid of people, I could not socialise with them.  It was as if I had a label placed on me that made me different from other people.  That is what caused me to really be afraid of people, because I thought by then that the community at home had to welcome me because I had fought for them and I was not only fighting for myself.

DR RANDERA: Okay.  And within your statement you also make the point about how the police tried to recruit you as an informer after you were released from prison.  Can you just tell us a little more about that?

PHILLIP MAKGALA: Yes, when I came back from Phillip Wilson there were many policemen who came to me.  I cannot remember the other one's name, but he used to visit me.  He was a young boy and he said to me would I not find it possible to help the Government by giving them some information.  You know, that was a very difficult belief to me, and I asked him what help do you want from me.  AAnd he explained to me that I should watch political figures or people who were involved in politics.  I should attend their meetings and give them information thereafter.  After he said that to me I told him no I could not do that, I could not accept his offer.  I suspected that he wanted me to be the informer and thereafter arrest me and lock me up.  That is what made to refuse his offer.
 I thought that after giving him all the information, some of the people who had the same ideas as me about the Government of that day, if they would hear that I was an informer, they would make plans to kill me.  That is what made me to altogether not accept that plea.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Sir.  I just want to go on again.  You said when you came back to Boputhatswana after its independence in 1977, you became a supporter of the Government of the time.  Was that true of the people in the community that you lived in as well as many others?

PHILLIP MAKGALA: I would say people could see that because almost where I was present people would elect me to be a chairman like in the teacher's organisation or association, I was elected as secretary and later became the chairman.  In most non-political organisations I was elected to certain positions.  This showed that maybe these people realised that I was supporting the Government of that day.

DR RANDERA: Can you then just give us your perspective as to why 1988 at the time of the coup, there was in your own words in your statement, you said there was jubilation in the streets as far as Phokeng.  It seemed like within a very short period then the existing Government had lost their support that they had previously, including yourself.

PHILLIP MAKGALA: On my own I can say that I had never recognised Boputhatswana.  I did not think that Boputhatswana was a stable government.  I only stayed in Boputhatswana so that I could not be followed by police anymore.
 I remember one day they came to arrest me, I realised that I had been lying to myself, I thought that they knew that I supported their Government and they realised that I did not support their Government, that is why they came and arrested me.  But truly speaking, I have never been interested in the Boputhatswana Government or thought that it would be a stable government one day.

DR RANDERA: Towards the end of your statement, after your arrest in 1988, you talk about how you were demoted to being a teacher back in Garankuwa and your daughter was thrown out of the university.  Can you just tell us whether you are still a principal of the school now and I hope that your daughter has finished her university studies.

PHILLIP MAKGALA: In that same year my child was chased away.  One night I received a call to come and pick up my child.  At that time my child had been beaten by the police.  My child's foot was swollen, I did not know what was wrong and then I brought my child back home.  When I asked my daughter what happened, instead of answering me, she said to me, Dad you sent me to Boputhatswana and I was not interested to work at that university.  I did not like it all.  Now look what had happened.  And then I said to her, leave that place because you did not even get well treated there.
 And then we applied for her at the University of Cape Town in that same year.  In early 1989 she enroled at the University of Cape Town and she stayed there until she completed.  She is presently working.

DR RANDERA: Mr Makgala, thank you very much for your honest answers.  I have no further questions.  I would like to hand over to the Chairperson.