Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: For the record it's Friday 12 May 2000.  We are continuing with the sitting at Middelburg, the amnesty applications, and we have on the roll this morning the application of Golden Holiday Sekgobela, amnesty reference AM 1026/96.  The Panel presiding are constituted as been indicated on the record.  The appearances are the same, Mr Richard for the applicant and Ms Mtanga the Leader of Evidence.  There is no appearance on behalf of any interested parties in this matter.  Yes Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  I call Mr Sekgobela who is prepared to take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: (sworn states)

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Sekgobela, in and during December 1990 were you affiliated to a member of, a supporter of any political party?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Which party?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The ANC.

MR RICHARD: And how did you demonstrate your support for that organisation?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I was attending all the youth meetings in the village.

MR RICHARD: Now what happened at those youth meetings?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The youths had a suspicion as a result of the deaths that were occurring in the village.

MR RICHARD: Okay, before we go there Mr Sekgobela, you say that you attended ANC youth meetings.  What was discussed besides suspicions?  Did you discuss political affairs, did you discuss community affairs?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now you come from a town called Kaboyong.  Where is that village?  In what area?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat the name of that town?

MR RICHARD: Which town did you live at as at December 1990?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I was staying at Lebohang.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now what is the nearest bigger town to Lebohang?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The nearest town to Lebohang is Orriestad and other towns are Leydenberg and Berresford.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now that area, is it an area where people still adhere to traditional practices and customary law?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now who was the chief of the area?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was Chief Dimgwanyani and the other one under him was Chief Moshlala.

MR RICHARD: And where did Chief Moshlala live?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He lived in my village, he was my chief.

MR RICHARD: Now tell me, as at December 1990, had the ANC yet established any local organisations or structures?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And what structures had been established?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was ANC Youth League.

MR RICHARD: Now who was the chairperson or office bearer in your village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was Thomas Sishlangu.

MR RICHARD: Now tell me, did you know the deceased Poppy Serani?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct, I knew her.

MR RICHARD: How long did you know her?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: For a long time.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now was Poppy married and if so, to whom was she married?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She had a husband but her husband died.

MR RICHARD: When did her husband die?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: In 1989.

MR RICHARD: Now her husband, did he have any brothers or sisters?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct, he had brothers and sisters.

MR RICHARD: Now did any of his brothers or sisters die?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct, there is one who died.

MR RICHARD: Was it a brother or sister?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was her brother, her elder brother.

MR RICHARD: When did her elder brother die?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He died in 1990.

MR RICHARD: Now Poppy's husband, from what did he die?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He died after a short illness.

MR RICHARD: And his elder brother, from what did he die?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He was struck by lightening.

MR RICHARD: Now before the end of 1990, were there any other deaths in the village or near the village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Well how many other people died and how did they die?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There was a bus accident in the village and about 15 youths died.

MR RICHARD: Did you know any of the youths who died in the bus accident?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I knew all the youths who died there but I've forgotten their names.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know whether Poppy's husband and Poppy's husband's brother had any political affiliations?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would not say with certainty but I think he was supporting the same organisation that I supported.

MR RICHARD: And when you say him, do you mean both of them or just the husband or the husband's brother?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Both of them.

MR RICHARD: Now the people who died in the bus accident, did they associate themselves with the ANC Youth League?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Why do you say that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I used to meet them in the meetings.

MR RICHARD: How many meetings did you go to?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There I would not say the number of meetings that I attended, but I attended every meeting that took place in the village.

MR RICHARD: Now did you see people from the bus accident at those meetings?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now what did you as the youth of that village think about the deaths?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The youths in the village had a suspicion about those deaths.  We were asking ourselves what could have been the cause.

MR RICHARD: And what did you do about your suspicions?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We held a meeting and we decided that we will go and tell the chief about our suspicion.

MR RICHARD: What did you tell the chief?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We told him that we as the youths in the village have a suspicion about the deaths that were taking place in the village and we were asking him, as the chief, to call the meeting of all the people in the village so that together we discuss this issue so as to get what could be the cause of these deaths.

MR RICHARD: What were the suspicions that you communicated to the chief?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We told the chief that we suspected witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know whether the chief had any political affiliation or supported a party?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No I do not know.

MR RICHARD: Now did the community meet?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now who was at the meeting, do you remember?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The youths and the parents attended the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Now who spoke on behalf of the youths?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was Thomas Shishlangu.

MR RICHARD: And what did he suggest happen?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: What did Thomas Shishlangu suggest and say to the meeting should happen?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He told the parents that we as the youth have asked the chief to call them to the meeting and he asked them to donate some money so that we could go and see a sangoma.

MR RICHARD: Now did he say which sangoma he wanted to go and see?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No he did not tell us the name of the sangoma.

MR RICHARD: Was the identity of the sangoma you were going to go and see discussed?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: For we decided that we will go to other places where the people do not know because we did not want to consult the local sangomas.

MR RICHARD: Why didn't you trust or want to go to the local sangomas?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We thought that because we lived with them in the village it can happen that they point at somebody whom they do not like.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now who was chosen to go to the sangoma?