Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the next applicant is Nicholas Vermeulen.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Vermeulen, you have submitted an amnesty application on the prescribed form, in terms of Section 18 of the law and you have given your full co-operation to the investigating officer.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You were an employee of the SAP, as defined in Section 20(2)(a) and 20(2)(f) of Act 34/95.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You were deployed to Section C1, known as Vlakplaas.  The operations of the unit have been set out in documentation which has already been submitted to this Committee.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And do you concur that Vlakplaas was a covert counter-insurgency unit and was the operational wing of all the Security Branches in the Republic of South Africa?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At the time of these incidents you were involved only in the second incident having taken place on the 12th of June 1988.  At that time you were a Warrant Officer.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And Col de Kock was your commander.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You confirm the content of your amnesty application, the general background, your personal history as well as the general merits thereof.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you agree that the political objective an action was aimed against the ANC and the communist movements within the Republic, as well as the political insurgency of institutions from abroad.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you carried out the actions or order of Mr de Kock, strictly and you acted on a need-to-know basis.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And at all times you acted within the scope of your duties at Vlakplaas.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Now with the second incident at Piet Retief, you were also deployed to the ambush?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What were you armed with?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: An R1 gun.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well.  Can you briefly tell us when the vehicle moved in, what happened?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: We moved in, the vehicle stopped, the driver climbed out and ran around the front of the vehicle into the bushes on the side of the ambush.  Because he had moved some distance past the pre-established point, Col de Kock gave the order to move ahead.  We left our positions and ran in the direction of the vehicle.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened next?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Shots were fired and after Col de Kock had given the order to cease fire, I took up position next to the bus and waited there.

MR CORNELIUS: Four persons were killed?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, four persons were killed.

MR CORNELIUS: Had they been armed?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, all of them had been armed.

MR CORNELIUS: You were aware of the practice among the members of C-Section, that they would identify targets and then C1 would be called in to perform the action?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Do you have any reason to doubt the information and orders which were conveyed by de Kock and Pienaar?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: You were a foot-soldier, as is the general description?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And these armed MK members, did they present any danger towards the Republic, according to your mind?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, they did.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that you were acting in the interests of your country at all times?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Against the then enemy of the Republic?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And that you had to combat the insurgency of terrorists?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: With the exception of the salary that you received, in terms of Section 20(3)(f) of the Act of 1995, did you obtain any personal or financial reward for your participation in this action?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you harbour any feelings of personal malice or vengeance towards the victims?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: And according to your knowledge, have you made a full disclosure of the relevant facts for the Committee, in terms of Section 20(1)(c) of the relevant Act?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You request thus that you be granted amnesty in terms of Section 20 of the Act?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: For four charges of murder emanating from the incident taking place on the 12th of June 1988?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: For your participation in perjury and defeating the ends of justice in the subsequent investigation?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And then you are also applying for statutory and common-law delicts or any other delicts of offences which may emanate from your participation in the incident.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius.  Ms van der Walt do you have any questions?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Vermeulen, you made two statements relating to this incident.  The first statement being the one that you made in preparation for the inquest which was to be held at Piet Retief.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: And the second statement being the one that you have made in respect of your amnesty application.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Sorry, just say again, Sir.

MR MOERANE: The second one being the one in respect of which you are testifying.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  And I assume you are telling this Honourable Committee that the one in bundle 1, page 334 to 335, is the correct one.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: And all that you had said in the Piet Retief statement, the one in preparation for the inquest was false?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Yes. Now I just want to take you through your second statement.  You say in the third sentence, that is now with regard to Manzini
"He would stop at a certain place with a minibus, climb out and urinate, which would be the signal that the correct people were in the bus."
That is correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: That is actually what was arranged and what was agreed?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Ja, that's what was agreed when I received my orders from Mr de Kock.

MR MOERANE: That's right.  And when the rest of you also received instructions from Mr de Kock?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: You were all present at the same place and same time, when you were given these instructions and these briefings?