Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, yesterday during the evidence of my client, apparently, especially Mr Kloppers and Deon Martin, kept on making remarks which disturbed my client and I would ask the Commission if it is possible first of all to reprimand them for having done so and secondly, just to move them away, to make them change seats with some of the other applicants, so that my client isn't disturbed in his evidence.  This is a very serious matter and he should be able to testify freely.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I don't think you should do that, you should disturb the other witness.  You will remember that you, yourselves testified and some of the things that you said, were not particularly interesting to the members of the families of the deceased, and we have tried through members of our staff, to plead with members of the families, when you testify, not to disturb you, not to make remarks, not to say anything.  One of you will recall that I stopped some cameramen last time from taking any more pictures, I said they were disturbing you when you were testifying.
	I think it is very pad that when someone else's turn comes, when you yourself had been protected against any of that kind of disturbance, that you should do that.  For now, you are going to be left where you are and I would ask Mr Van der Schyff if it happens again, please let us know so that we can take it further from there, but I would like to believe that it won't happen again, please.  Thank you.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: (s.u.o)

MR KNOETZE: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Van der Schyff, it is already known that you and the other applicants acted and behaved in your AWB uniforms, is that correct, at the road block?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Can the Commission make the inference then that you wanted the people to see that it was the AWB people who had the road block and you were searching for illegal weapons?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: How did you think that behaviour of yours furthered the purposes of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The instruction was to look for illegal weapons and ammunition and only to search the cars with black occupants and once we found the weapons, we would have taken the weapons and given it to the Police in order to get money and to put the money into the account of the AWB.

MR KNOETZE: There must be another aspect because the illegal weapons you would have found, you would have taken them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And in that way it would not longer be able to be used against whites, women, children and elderly people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: You received a message that you have to be ready, you are going to shoot somebody and you also take part in the shooting?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: You already testified that as far as that was concerned, you were following instructions?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: If you could just take this a bit further, did you make the inference that Deon Martin shot the first shot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: What did you think about that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The message was given to me coming from Etienne Visser that we are going to shoot.  I followed it purely as an instruction coming from my seniors and therefore I shot.
	I shot directly at the black people.

MR KNOETZE: If I can put it this way, the fact that Deon Martin shot the first shot, was that confirmation for you that the message that you received, the fact that you are going to shoot, was correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: How did the shooting further the purposes of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: We wanted to send out a message right through South Africa that the AWB under no circumstances would accept the ANC/SACP alliance.

MR KNOETZE: You mean accept them as the government of the day?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is right.

MR KNOETZE: What was the AWB's idea, what should happen to the "Boer volk"?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The AWB wanted that the "Boer volk" should have their own piece of ground where they can have their own education as well as its own religion.

MR KNOETZE: There was also evidence of what happened at the monument on the 16th of December, were you there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I was there.

MR KNOETZE: Can you just quickly describe what happened?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: When we arrived there, Kloppers, Martin, Gen Oelofse and his wife were already there.  The festivities started around seven o'clock that night, after which me, myself and some of the other applicants, stood a guard of honour, together with the Ystergarde of the AWB.

MR KNOETZE: On whose request or instruction did you stand the guard of honour?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The instruction came from Oelofse.

MR KNOETZE: In what light did you interpret the instruction to stand the guard of honour?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I thought we did it because there were not enough members for the protection of the leader.

MR KNOETZE: Afterwards something happened between you and Kloppers, can you just explain because you lay low as was already testified?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes Chairperson.  On the 4th of January 1994 I received a phone call from Phil Kloppers' wife,  Tury Kloppers, and she asked me if it was possible that I can go and fetch her husband at Voetplat Park, just outside of Durban.

MR KNOETZE: Did you do that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did do that.

MR KNOETZE: Afterwards you were arrested, when were you arrested?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That was on the 6th of January 1994.

MR KNOETZE: Are you still a member of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Since when are you no longer a member?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Since February 1996.

MR KNOETZE: Why did you resign?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because I did not want to obey the commands of my leaders while I was in prison, I did not think it was a good thing to obey them because I was a prisoner and I did not consider obeying them.

MR KNOETZE: Which commands are you talking about now?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Kloppers always wanted the people together, they always should do as he wanted it to be done, and that was unacceptable to me.

MR KNOETZE: Do you still support the objectives of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: How do you feel today with regards to what happened on the 12th of December 1993?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I am sorry about what happened that evening.  I regret what happened.

MR KNOETZE: Have you said anything to the family members of the victims?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Mr and Mrs Makhuza who lost her son that evening.  I know it is very difficult for any person to lose their child in such a manner in such a cruel way, and it is thus unacceptable for me what happened there.  And this goes for the other families as well, those whose family members were killed and also for the victims, and therefore I ask the families to forgive me in their hearts for what had happened that evening.

MR KNOETZE: It is also a well known fact that you were accused with the other applicants and you were found guilty to charges of murder.  You got the death sentence four times and later it was reduced and you got life long prison sentence for those crimes, and for those crimes you also ask for amnesty?