Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: You made a statement to Mr Murigon in connection with - Mr Murigon is one of the investigators of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: I can remember him in my lawyer's office, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And then you were not subject to all sorts of pressures like you were in Mauritius?

DIRK COETZEE: Except the rush Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Why Mr Coetzee, it's an important lobby?

DIRK COETZEE: I had an appointment and he didn't make specific appointment for a statement and I agreed to help him in the time available Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but rush perhaps one would leave things out and so but one would try to be reasonably accurate, especially you that picked up so many problems in the past about statements that you have made.

DIRK COETZEE: No not necessarily Mr Chairman, we get mixed up with the facts too.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  And did you get mixed up with the facts?

DIRK COETZEE: I don't know Mr Chairman, I can't remember.

MR BOOYENS: Oh come on Mr Coetzee please, you know very well what I am referring to.  You see because what you told at page 101 you said this happened on the 13th of September.

DIRK COETZEE: On point 101 of ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Page 101, Volume 2 Mr Chairman.

DIRK COETZEE: On page?

MR BOOYENS: Page 101 there you put a date, "on the" that's drawn through and it's just "during September 1981", so you corrected that.

DIRK COETZEE: 101, sorry just bear with me please.

MR BOOYENS: You see there's an "on 13" there, crossed out and "during" put and two initials on the left-hand side, one of which I presume is yours.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So you did have time to read the statement over or to check its correctness?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And they didn't have documents to confirm, most probably, the night that the Audi was stolen

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct because I didn't hand that document out, ja.

MR BOOYENS: Now but Mr Coetzee, at page 103 you now told us in this statement at the top that Nick van Rensburg told you about the man jumping through the window.  Remember that?

DIRK COETZEE: Is that the...(intervention)

MR MOOSA: Yes it's the

DIRK COETZEE: He told me that this person, he could have mentioned the name but I do not remember had jumped through the window but I do not remember whilst being interrogated, that story?

MR MOOSA: That's correct Mr Chairman.  And then the next paragraph is very interesting Mr Coetzee, read it on the record please.

DIRK COETZEE: "I explained to him how we had murdered others like Peter Mbusi and Selby ......... by using knock-out drops, then shooting them and burning their bodies to complete ashes.  I told him that I was obtaining the knock out drops from Lothar Neethling".
Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: According to this statement you told him that on the 13th of December.

DIRK COETZEE: That is what the statement says but it's obviously not correct Mr Chairman because Peter and Vusi were only according to my collection guilty...(intervention)

DIRK COETZEE: He would have needed clairvoyant talents to say that now Sir.

DIRK COETZEE: I beg your pardon Mr...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: He would have needed talents of a clairvoyant to say that on the 13th of September.

DIRK COETZEE: I don't know exactly what the...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: He would have had to be able to see into the future because it hadn't happened then.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: But this Mr Coetzee is in fact one of the most crucial parts of your whole evidence against Nick van Rensburg and here you make this mistake, why?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't explain it, it's human Mr Chairman as one of the advocates in one the early stages of...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: No I'm not interested in what other advocates had to say...(intervention)

DIRK COETZEE: It referred to persons by other names and they did, it's just a slip of the mind and a slip of facts; I admit to it Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: Yes never mind whether you admit to it Mr Coetzee, it shows that you are uncertain about your facts.

DIRK COETZEE: About some facts, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: This one could also be one of the facts that you're uncertain about.

DIRK COETZEE: At that stage, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So at the stage when you made this statement you could have been uncertain about it.

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And this statement was made on the 8th of October 1996 at 12H27, look at page 106.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, it's at 8th of October 1996.

MR BOOYENS: Ja Mr Coetzee I think your eyes are better than mine, it looks like 96.10.08.  is it.

DIRK COETZEE: 96.10.08, that's correct Mr Chairman, yes.

MR BOOYENS: So when you gave this explanation you were certain about it's correctness.

DIRK COETZEE: Well I was hoping to be certain, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So this slip of the mind, this mistake, that was not really the case because at this time you were certain because after all, you're making an affidavit Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: I understand it Mr Chairman it's quite human to make slips and I can't add on to that.

MR BOOYENS: But you see Mr Coetzee unless of course there's an other more sinister explanation for this.  Lets just deal with - you left the police force in unhappy circumstances disliking quite a few people in the police force, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And is it not correct that you left this country as a refugee and you had to go and make a living by going over to the other side.  That was your only chance of survival, you had to go and speak to Mr Jacob Zumanda of the ANC.

DIRK COETZEE: That's not correct Mr Chairman, I had an easy way out.  The night when Almond Nofomela spoke from Death Row and all my former colleagues and his former colleagues made him a liar and he denied bluntly, I had an easy option out of just joining them in the chorus or stand up for the truth and save Almond's neck.  I can just mention that I, together with  former CID chief General Kobus Visser and his son, had a very very lucrative business granted by the South African Insurance Association for identifying cars and would have made millions if I had stayed behind in the country.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee never mind, the point is you left the country, you were speaking to Jacques Paauw and once you did that you were in difficulty.

DIRK COETZEE: No Mr Chairman I left the country for the truth and I would have been in greater danger and greater problems if I did not tow the line in front of the then McNally Commission which was appointed to investigate Almond Nofomela's allegations.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee could we return to the facts of this case.  On page 104 you say you and Flemington left to the place where the murder was later committed.

DIRK COETZEE: Which volume was this Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: Volume 2, page 104, your statement.  Ja, you picked up Paul van Dyk, met Flemington and two of his members and you drove into the bush.

DIRK COETZEE: Towards the gate border, that's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You then turned towards the mountain, towards the veld.  On the right hand side is the Komati River.  Peter and Selby were also burned in the vicinity.  We drove for about 10km.  I can point out the area.  Then shortly afterwards du Plessis and van Rensburg arrived with a white ford, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: That's right they arrived Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So were you already on the spot when they arrived?

DIRK COETZEE: Archie Flemington, his two mates and myself and Paul van Dyk were already on the scene, that's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Did anybody accompany them to show them where's the spot?