Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And Mamome used to work with Motsamai?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: So these are all people that you worked with closely?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Yes I nearly forget one, that's Mr Ramosoeu, I just remembered his name.  Those people I've mentioned they compromised our section.

ADV MEMANI: And your team was a good team, the relations between members of the team were good?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I don't know if we had a good relationship.  What did you mean, there would be conflicts if people are working together?

ADV MEMANI: Well, were you not on good terms with any member of the team?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: In Sesotho, when you say you are not in good terms with a person, it does not necessarily mean that you are in conflict with that person.

ADV MEMANI: Were there any bad feelings between yourself and any member of the team?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: There was no member whom I was in conflict with because of a particular behaviour, meaning myself.  I don't know of that person, I mean meaning myself.

ADV MEMANI: Particularly you did not have - there were no bad feelings between yourself and Motsamai?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: There was no conflict between myself and Motsamai, the conflict which was there was work related.  We didn't have bad blood with him but it was just then and there.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you said that Mr Motsamai told us that he was with you when a certain church was bombed.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I dispute that.

ADV MEMANI: He told us that he went there with you and Mamome.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should correct it, it wasn't a church that was bombed, it was a house.

ADV MEMANI: A parish house.

CHAIRPERSON: A parish house.  I'm indebted to your lordship.  	Now a parish house was bombed by yourself, Mamome and Motsamai.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Sir, I've never committed such an act.

ADV MEMANI: Together with Morakile.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I refuse.

ADV MEMANI: If I may take instructions, Chairperson?
	Now you told us that you got the instructions from Shaw and Coetzee.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I've never said that.

ADV MEMANI: Or may I repeat, he told us that it was instructions from Shaw and Coetzee.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: If those were his instructions I do not know them.

ADV MEMANI: Now at the time that I when Motsamai resigned from the police force was there any ill blood between yourself and Mr Motsamai, Are there any ill feelings?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I do not know how to answer that question because I was not working with him.

ADV MEMANI: When did you stop working with him?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: It's a long time Sir, I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

UNKNOWN: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: It appears - I think it might assist and I think I should have done this earlier, from E2, that the date of this incident was the 18th August, 1986.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I suggest that we take an adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it a convenient idea.  We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the next witness is Mr Lesale.  You will find his affidavit in bundle B at page 94.
	Mr Lesale, are your names spelt:  your surname,	 
L-e-s-a-l-e?  And your christian names are Selane:  S-e-l-a-n-e, is that correct?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Shadra?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you sign an affidavit?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And is that the affidavit before you?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And do you confirm the truthfulness of the contents of that affidavit?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Are you still with the South African Police services today?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And what is your rank?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Detective Sergeant.

UNKNOWN: And when did you join the South African Police?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: 1984, on the 4th month, on the 21st 1981, sorry.

UNKNOWN: 21st of April 1981.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And did you at some stage join the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember when that was?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't remember the day but it was in 1985 in June.

UNKNOWN: June 1985.  Now in what section did you work in the security branch in Bloemfontein?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was working with the trade unions.

UNKNOWN: And in doing that, were you working together with other members of the security branch here in Bloemfontein in that section?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And who were they?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was working with Petrus Miningwa.

UNKNOWN: And that is spelt M-i-i-n-g-w-a.   Yes?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Our section head was Captain Hendrik Prinsloo.

UNKNOWN: In the type of work which you did in that section, did it come about that you worked with other members of the security branch or were you pretty much working on your own?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: We were not meeting with other members of various sections.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever work with Mr Nelson Ngo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Not at all.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Ngo has alleged in his application at page 31, that in 1986 - I'm sorry that is bundle A of course Mr Chairman, that in 1986 there was a sub-unit of the security branch stationed at Botshabelo.  Do you know about that?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I know of that unit but I haven't worked in that unit.

UNKNOWN: So when Mr Ngo says that in 1986 - that is page 31, that you were a member of that sub-unit he's mistaken?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He's lying.

UNKNOWN: Then Mr Ngo refers at page 35 to your name - that's the bottom of the page, Mr Chairman, item 8, he refers to you as being one of the persons who was involved in what he alleged to have been an assault on comrades who had been arrested in a raid in 1986.  What do you say about that?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I never worked in Botshabelo, even what he's saying I don't know that.

UNKNOWN: Now coming then to Mr Motsamai - as you stated in your affidavit in paragraph 2.3, he implicates you in three incidents and they are incidents 6, 10 and 14.  Now I want to refresh your memory with reference to page 147 of bundle A where he says this: he says that he, Motsamai, Mamome, Constable Lesale and Constable Miningwa petrol bombed the parental house of one Citi Mzuzwana.  Citi Mzuzwana was an organiser of the Mangong Youth Congress.  Now first of all, in 1986, what was your rank?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Constable.

UNKNOWN: Did you know Mr Citi Mzuzwana at the time?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

UNKNOWN: Did he feature at all in your investigations into the activities of trade unions?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir

UNKNOWN: What do you say of the allegation that you were a member of that group who petrol bombed the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I know nothing about that.

UNKNOWN: Do you from your own knowledge know where that house had in fact been attacked?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't remember.