Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MS PATEL: Furthermore, well, it is also confirmed in the statements that the certain Charles was in fact a leader of the comrades group at the time and the information was that he was in possession of an AK47 as well as handgrenades?  Do you recall this?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: It could have been, I won't dispute it Mr Chair.

MS PATEL: Okay.   The weapon, the AK47, it is Mr Nortje who made an application for that to be issued, not so?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: As far as I know, yes Mr Chair.

MS PATEL: Okay, to confirm this Honourable Chairperson, there is in fact another Exhibit before you, that would be Exhibit D, it is an application by Sgt Nortje to the Commander of C-Section.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a hand-written document?

MS PATEL: It is a hand-written document, it is dated the 03-06-1986.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've got that one.  Will that be Exhibit D?

MS PATEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS PATEL: Okay, it is an application for the issue of an AK47 and in motivation of this application, Sgt Nortje states in paragraph 2 of the application
"... this weapon is required to ensure the credibility of a team who will be responsible for the infiltration at a group ANC terrorists in the Port Natal area."
	It appears from this paragraph, you will agree with me, that the question of an infiltration had already been decided as early as the 3rd of that month?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, that could have been, otherwise we wouldn't have come here.  The infiltration could have been any place.  That is actually why I think we came down to Durban area, Mr Chair.

MS PATEL: All right, and furthermore just to highlight the fact that he notes that it is the infiltration of a group, it seems to me that the only reasonable inference that one can draw from that is that there was information about a specific group that was to be infiltrated.

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I cannot comment on that Mr Chair, it might have been information that Willie had before the time, when he applied for the weapon.

MS PATEL: You will agree thought that it ties in with Lt Hunter's version that it is in fact the group that requested information about a specific person, from him, rather than him providing general information about Chesterville at the time?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: It can be so, yes, Mr Chair.

MS PATEL: Okay.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe before you move from that Ms Patel, when one reads paragraph 2, one gets also the information that this AK47 was supposed to be used to convince the group about the trustworthiness of the people who had infiltrated them, do you agree?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words as early as the 3rd of June 1986, it was decided that the AK47 was going to be used to convince the UDF members that the people who were infiltrating them, were comrades as well?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: That will contradict what we heard yesterday that only when the askaris and Radebe started talking to the UDF members, they suspected that they were not comrades and at that stage, Radebe had to go out, ask for an AK47 from you people to go and pretend that he is a comrade, do you agree?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I agree Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: So that will also support Mr Nofomela's evidence that the AK47 was obtained in Pretoria?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Pretoria at Headquarters, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you Mr Vermeulen.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.   Just to confirm now that we have the affidavit in front of us, Sgt Nortje says that it is in fact a Shey 77 weapon or firearm, which he says looks like or is similar to an AK47 that was handed over to Sgt Radebe?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Can I just comment there Mr Chair, this Shey I think there is a spelling fault there, what actually must be just there is a CH77 which means the weapon was made under licence in Czechoslovakia, but it looks exactly the same as an AK47, it shoots the same bullet, it looks exactly the same, there is actually very few discrepancies on the weapon itself, I just think that was a small fault there.

MS PATEL: Oh, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that?

MS PATEL: It is page 2 of Nortje's statement, paragraph ...

CHAIRPERSON: Which Exhibit?

MS PATEL: B.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it Exhibit B?

MS PATEL: B, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the second page you say?

MS PATEL: The second page, paragraph 6, Honourable Chairperson, the last line.

CHAIRPERSON: From the top?

MS PATEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Number six?

MS PATEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.  Sorry, yes, we've got that thank you.

MS PATEL: All right, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Vermeulen, you are saying that this weapon is similar to an AK47?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This CH77, is that the reference for that weapon?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, sorry Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.   Are you certain that Sgt Nortje reported to Mr de Kock after the incident?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Were you present during the report back?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: He doesn't say, Sgt Nortje doesn't mention this at all in his statement, in Exhibit B, all he says is that he then made a report to Lt Hunter and then after that, he made a report to Lt van Dyk?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chairman, Mr van Dyk and Col de Kock slept in the same room, so when they came in, both of them woke up and Col de Kock automatically heard what was going on as being the Chief of the unit.

MS PATEL: So are you saying that Mr de Kock just, no - I think I misunderstood your information, correct me if I am wrong, are you saying that Mr de Kock just by the way happened to be in the room where the report back was made to Lt van Dyk?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: He was in his sleeping quarters at the Officers' Mes at C R Swart.

MS PATEL: Who is he now, are you referring to Mr de Kock?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Mr de Kock.

MS PATEL: Okay.

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: And Mr de Kock and Mr van Dyk shared the same room at C R Swart and that is where the report was made to Mr de Kock, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: And as far as you are concerned, Lt van Dyk just happened to be in the same sleeping quarters?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, they booked in at the same room, it wasn't by chance.

MS PATEL: No, but the intention wasn't to report back to Lt van Dyk, is that what you are saying?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, that is what I mean.

MS PATEL: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom was the report actually made?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: According to me it was reported to Col de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: Nortje spoke to Mr de Kock?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was van Dyk?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Van Dyk was in the same room, they were together in the same room.

CHAIRPERSON: Was van Dyk sleeping?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: As far as I can remember, it is difficult to say now, but at that stage he was sleeping, they shared the same room.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they wake Mr de Kock up?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, we first woke up Mr de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: So you woke up Mr de Kock, not van Dyk?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Not van Dyk.

CHAIRPERSON: Was van Dyk still sleeping?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I cannot remember that Mr van Dyk was there when we told Mr de Kock about the shooting, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel, sorry.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.   Sorry, if you will just grant me a moment, I just need to double check something, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: Mr Vermeulen, can you recall whether Sgt Nortje took the weapons away from the askaris after the incident?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Mr Chairman, I cannot recall that.