Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

JUDGE WILSON: One of the problems I have with the evidence 
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UNKNOWN: here, and in other instances, is you continually say you 
were a foot soldier.  You merely carried out the 
instructions of the generals.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you took part in the killings of numbers 
of people.  You can't even remember what year this was in.  
This was somewhere between 1989 and 1992.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is the impact it had on you.  Why did 
you people never take the trouble to do a little 
reconnaissance?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, as I have already testified, Capt 
Marthinus Ras who worked in that area, close to the border, 
together with the other security branches, would have made 
sure beforehand what was going on.  They would have checked 
where we were going through, they would have verified with 
the informants, that this Kahn business cum house was used 
...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: These are lovely excuses. They were not 
checking what was happening that night, Ras was with you, he 
wasn't checking, was he?

UNKNOWN: We were not waiting and sent him over to find 
out what was going on.  All of us went together.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but why did you Vlakplaas hit squad who 
was brought in from Vlakplaas to the Western Cape, the 
Eastern Cape, Eastern Transvaal, all over the country to 
kill, why didn't you check first?  You did not know who was 
sleeping in that house that night.  You made no effort.

UNKNOWN: I didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your unit made no effort to find 
out.  There might have been a doctor who was treating 
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UNKNOWN: someone who had been brought in urgently ill, or a nurse or 
a priest.  You didn't know.  You went in and killed the 
people you found in the houses.  Why did you not bother to 
check up to make sure there were not innocent people, and in 
this case you would have found there were two children?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, Marthinus Ras would, together with 
the local security branch, have verified this information, 
but we didn't go over first to make sure.  We expected 
terrorists.

JUDGE WILSON: He was with you, you were all together that 
afternoon, you all went there together.  Nobody, it is quite 
obvious, nobody was checking up and nobody did in the other 
cases.  Why not?  I am not asking for a motive for the 
attack, I am asking for the actual mechanism.  You are going 
to attack a house.  You are going to shoot the people in it 
and blow it up.  Why did you never take the trouble to find 
out who precisely was in that house, which you could have 
done in most instances, by just watching the house for the 
afternoon.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, it was in a different country.  
Marthinus Ras' amnesty application is already before you. I 
will request the Committee to ask him these questions, 
because he was in control of this operation, together with 
the security branch.  There might also be other applications 
...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: You were the Vlakplaas hit squad brought in 
to do the killings.

UNKNOWN: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did the Vlakplaas hit squad not check up 
on what they were attacking?  Why do you always try to put 
the blame on somebody else.
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UNKNOWN: I refer here to Marthinus Ras who was with me 
in the Vlakplaas hit squad, it was his operation.  I 
accepted that he would have made sure.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought he was in the Western Transvaal 
Special Branch?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, he was also at Vlakplaas, but he 
worked in the Western Transvaal/Botswana district, from 
Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: So you agree, you made no effort to check up 
who was in the houses before you attacked them?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your Vlakplaas unit, not just 
you individually.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, Marthinus Ras would - he was not
all the time with me, he would have made sure.

JUDGE WILSON: He was with you that afternoon and evening, 
he wasn't checking up.

UNKNOWN: From the time we came to the farm, yes.  But I 
did not go there with him.  We weren't driving there in - 
together, so I don't know if he checked beforehand.

JUDGE WILSON: But he was with you at the farm, he wasn't 
watching the place.  The other cases we heard, you didn't 
check on beforehand, did you? It was not your practice.

UNKNOWN: No, we acted on a source information from other 
branches.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On page 71, the third paragraph or the last 
paragraph there, that sentence reads "that nobody knew who 
were in the house before the house was entered." what does 
that mean?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, when I read this sentence I added to 
that, I said nobody knew who was in the house, but I believe 
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UNKNOWN: that Marthinus Ras would have known.  We weren't told.  When 
I testified in main I extended on that, expanded on that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On what basis do you believe that Ras would 
he have known?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, because I spoke to Marthinus Ras 
during this week and he told that his application - I don't 
know if it is here yet, but he says he explains it in his 
application who knew and who didn't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Further on you say,
		"There was no information that there had been 
children in the house, and nobody expected 
children in the house".
what time did the attack take place?

UNKNOWN: It was after one in the morning.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Surely you would have expected that children 
would be there in the house at that time?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair now that I think back, yes, but I 
didn't know that there were going to be children in the 
house. I knew that Kahn and the terrorists in the house 
would have been eliminated and that the place would then be 
blown up to destroy the buildings.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If the Kahn had children where would you 
expect their children to be at that time of the day?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, in the house?

JUDGE MGOEPE: You see this sentence of yours that there was 
no evidence that there were children in the house, is 
puzzling.  The real question should have been, was there 
information that there were no children in the house, isn't 
it so?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, that is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Because one would have expected that time of 
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UNKNOWN: the night that children should be in the house.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, I admit that, that's true, but I 
thought there was going to be Mr Kahn and the terrorists.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there any real concerns about the safety 
of children in the house, was there any serious concern on 
the part of your team?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, there was never any talk of 
children being in the house. It was never discussed.  I 
don't know if specifically the people who were in the house 
who shot the people there, then discussed it amongst 
themselves, but it was never mentioned before we reached the 
farm house.  I was the back-up, I was never told that.  It 
was never discussed, but I don't know if, whether or not 
they discussed it beforehand, those people who went in the 
house, if they knew this, but I am sure that Marthinus Ras 
will come and explain this.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And what you do know, you say here is that 
there were instructions that the occupants of the house be 
eliminated?

UNKNOWN: Yes, sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And nothing further was said about the 
children, as far as you can remember?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, terrorists were expected in the 
house.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Where in Botswana was this?