Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

ADV PRIOR: Page Hlalele Hlesesi, that's Amnesty Number 5020/97.  Evidence Leader is Advocate P.C. Prior.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Honourable Chair.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter, thank you.

ADV PRIOR: May I just place on record the panel is as in the previous matter.  Madam Chair, may I indicate that the relevant Section 19 notices were despatched to the victims who are present, the next of kin of the deceased are present in person and maybe just for the public, the amnesty application of Mr Hlelesi revolves around the death ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: On your front page of your application Mr Prior.

CHAIRPERSON: Your microphone is off Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: I beg your pardon, Madam Chair.  May I just recap?  The amnesty application of Mr Hlelesi involves the death of Mrs van Niewenhuizen, she was 83 at the time of her death in the Brakpan area.  This application indicates that he was a member of the PAC, that he and others went on an operation to obtain, ostensibly to obtain firearms for use in the liberation struggle.  Thank you Madam Chair.

MR MALAN: Mr Prior, the application that I have before me says he was a supporter, not a member.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Madam Chair, I noticed that that supporter was underlined.  Yes he was a supporter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Prior I don't think it will take the matter any further but I think in response to questions that were put by the Amnesty Committee's administrative staff, he did say that he was a member of the PAC but that's neither here nor there, we will still hear him.

ADV PRIOR: Madam Chair, that's why I said - that was I'd recalled that I'd seen that, I couldn't quite put my finger, I'm indebted to the Committee for that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You're welcome.  Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee.  Madam Chair unfortunately as I indicated I will lead the applicant out of the cuff, I don't have any return submission, I don't have affidavit to facilitate the whole proceedings, unfortunately.  May he be sworn in Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Southern Sotho, Madam Chair thank you.

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Hlelesi, is it correct you were born on the 28th December 1965?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were a supporter of PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you start supporting PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I started supporting the PAC during 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what made you support the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I was recruited by one of the members of the PAC, he actually encouraged me to support the PAC and at my place there were members of the PAC with my family.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I didn't get the name of the person who recruited him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, he has not yet mentioned it, I'm still also waiting.
	Can you tell the Committee the name of the person who recruited you and what made you to support PAC, what did he tell you that made you to support PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Because of the situation that prevailed at that time, he encouraged me to get in touch with the leaders or the leader of the PAC and the two of them encouraged me to support the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee the name of the person who recruited you?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Moses Mogagi but he was known as Morapapa.

ADV BOSMAN: Can we just have the name of the other person too please?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Moses Mogaga.

ADV BOSMAN: And the second person to whom you were introduced?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: The second name is Able.  Moses Mogagi was also known as Morapapa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The Committee, the Member of the Committee what he wants is that you said Morapapa or Moses Mogagi introduced you to another person now they want the second person you were introduced to.

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Just to clarify that issue, the person that I met first was Able and Able introduced me to Morapapa who was in command of Able or the unit that Able belonged to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, again I'm going back to my question that what made you to support PAC?  What did they tell you that made you to support PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I was briefed that the PAC was a liberation movement, to liberate the Black nation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The Committee knows that it was a liberation movement as well as ANC was a liberation movement, but what I want to know why specifically, what attracted you to support PAC specifically?  There were other liberation movements, PAC, ANC, AZAPO, SACP?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: But I also had a desire to join the PAC during that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So there's nothing in particular that attracted you to PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I don't think I understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: May I come to your assistance Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What, Mr Hlelesi, what your counsel wants to know was why did you join the PAC and not for instance the ANC?  You obviously must have been aware that there were quite a number of liberation movements at the time when you joined the PAC in 1993.  Now what made you to be attracted to the PAC and not to the other liberation movements?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It's because members of my family or all the members of my family were PAC members and I felt that I should not be different from them, I should also join the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So your evidence is that you became a supporter from June 1993 until this time of this incident on the 6th May 1994 you were still a supporter of PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now with regard to this incident can you tell the Committee how did you come about to attack this home in Brakpan.  Who came up with this idea, who ordered it?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Moses Magagi gave us the orders and he was known to me as Morapapa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did he give you the order?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was during the month of January 1994.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you indicate to the Committee was it the beginning of January, mid January, the end of January?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: It was mid January.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I take it Mr Hlelesi at that time you were full on PAC activities of PAC, am I correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I was a new recruit so I did have any clarity at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: What date - can we contextualise the evidence Mr Mbandazayo?  What period are we talking of?  Let's talk in respect of dates and months.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way Mr Hlelesi, at the time in January when you received this order from - you allege that you received this order from Morapapa, you were a supporter of PAC from June.  At that time you said you were a new recruit, now what I'm asking from you is whether at that time in January when you received the order, were you following the activities of PAC or as a new recruit you were keen to know what is it that PAC, makes it tick, that is what is involved in PAC, what PAC stands for?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: As I've already explained that I was still a new recruit so I was not fully conversant with the PAC activities.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you recruited to do Mr Hlelesi, what did Mr Mogaga recruit you to do?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: To further the struggle of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by furthering the struggle of the PAC, what did you have to do?  What road did you as Mr Hlelesi had to do in furthering the struggle of the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: What I mean by that is that whenever orders were issued to me, were given to me I got to execute such orders.

CHAIRPERSON: In January 1994 what orders were given to you by Mr Mogaga?