Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was coming, my colleague was coming on my back but because the passage was dark I couldn't see where he was standing.  I think maybe he was towards the judge there, but I did not know or did not see where he was.  But what I realised afterwards is that he had passed me and he went to the other side but I hadn't seen him.  When I was calling "grenade!", he was on the other side.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Mnqandi, if I could just ask, I just want to clear up something.
	When the deceased got into the room, you said he put the key in the door, opened the door and he went into the room and then he slammed the door, is that right?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: So the key was still outside, he didn't lock the door from inside?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Can you please repeat, Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: So am I correct in inferring that the key to the door was still in the door on the outside, where he had used it to open it?  So when he got into the room he couldn't lock the room, he just pushed the door closed.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He took out, the key was with him inside.

JUDGE MILLER: So you're saying that he opened the door with the key and then got the handle and opened the door to get in and then took out the key, managed to get in, closed the door, put the key back in the keyhole and lock it, while you did nothing?  Is that what you say?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: What I noticed is that at the time he was pretending as if he had difficulty opening the door, he was taking the key out of the door and because it was dark in that passage we could not see clearly.  That was the trick he used because when he was pretending as if there was a problem opening that door, it was the time when he was taking the key out.  Because when I was trying to open the key was not there, it was inside with him, so that was a trick because he pretended as if he had difficulties opening the door.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: Mr Gumengu, as an officer who was going there accompanying someone who had indicated that he was going to a place where there were weapons, I take it you had to be very cautious on every step that he was going to take that day.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: You could expect that he would make any move at any time.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is so.

MR MNQANDI: I find it then strange that you were able to allow him to get into the room, lock himself without you being able to do anything.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It did happen that way because it was the trick that he used.  Even though we had covered all his tricks according to your work, but he tricked us using this way and what he did had surprised us because when we went there he pretended as if he was cooperating with us but then he pretended that he had a problem with the key and he also had an advantage that it was dark in that veranda.  So that is how he tricked us.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Gumengu, was this an ordinary key that you put in a lock or was it a yale lock type of lock?  What sort of lock was it?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was not a padlock, it was an ordinary house key.

JUDGE MILLER: An ordinary house key but not a yale lock, not one of those flat keys, it was one of the long keys with the stem and the look behind it.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, one of the long keys.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, while we are on this point, why did you remove the handcuffs?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was because he had to take the key and open the house so that if he had booby-trapped the door he would not be saved, or if there was going to be a firing from inside or maybe of there were people inside, he would be the first one to be hit.

CHAIRPERSON: But why do you have to remove the handcuffs for that purpose?  Why do you have to remove the handcuffs to get him to unlock the door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was going to be able to open the door while he was handcuffed, he was not going to be able to open the door while still handcuffed.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?  Why can't you unlock a door if you're handcuffed?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: According to my knowledge if a person is handcuffed on his back he would not be able to open the door, that was not possible, and we also thought that we had handcuffed his hands on his - his hands on his back, so we did not expect him to open the door while handcuffed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and if you cuff his hands in the front, why can't he open a door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: We did not handcuff him on the front, we handcuffed him on the back because according to our instructions we were not allowed to handcuff them on the front, we had to handcuff them on the back.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but for the purpose of opening the door, to neutralise any tricks that he might have with booby-traps and making a sudden move on you, why can't his hands be cuffed in the front?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: We couldn't do that Sir, because we had a rule that we are not supposed to handcuff a person from the front because if anything had happened, the department would blame us that we had handcuffed that person from the front, so we had to follow the rules to handcuff the person from behind and a person was supposed to be the one who was in front and opens the door all the time.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, your answer seems to lack a bit of logic, Mr Gumengu, you say you couldn't put handcuffs in the front because you weren't allowed to by the department, right?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: But it's better to have a person in your detention completely free than if you handcuff him in the front, is that what you say?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, it is not like that, what I'm trying to explain is, according to the regulations we had to handcuff a person on the back ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: We know, but what Judge Potgieter was asking you, was saying, okay you handcuffed him at the back to comply with regulations, now you get to a situation where you want him for some reason or other, to open the door, instead of you just putting in the key and pulling down the handle, you wanted him to do that.  So you undo the handcuffs from behind because he can't open the door himself, why didn't you put it in front?  When you got him from behind, why didn't you handcuff him again in the front and then say okay, open the door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That didn't occur to us because we did not want to change the rule, we just wanted him to open the door.

MR MNQANDI: What was wrong Mr Gumengu, in your opening the door for him and then allowing him to get inside the house before you entered the house?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Can you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR MNQANDI: Yes.  I'm asking what was wrong in your opening the door for him and then letting him get inside the room first before you did?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: We were running away from the booby-traps in the door.

MR MNQANDI: Surely the booby-traps would come into effect when you open the door, isn't it?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: Then if you allow him to be the first to enter, then the booby-trap would catch him.