Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Did you say to the security police, you will not co-operate unless they pay you ten thousand rand.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Was Serg. Pretorius your handler?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : Yes.

MR SEMENYA: What way you to receive that there were killers in your house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: What in return were you to get for (indistinct) that information?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Yes, that's what I'm asking.  Is ten thousand rand calculated in terms of the number of people you sold out?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: What is so difficult?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : No translation.

CHAIRPERSON: : Order please.

MR SEMENYA: I'm referring to your discussion with Pretorius.  Not to with Senior Superintendent Moodley.  When you agree with Pretorius, would it be  five thousand rand for a (indistinct) or not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: But you just told us Mr Richardson, and I want to go forward, that you agree to that in exchange for that information you're going to be paid ten thousand rand.  Am I right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please!  Please can you co-operate with the Commission.  You're no co-operating with him, but with us, because we are trying to - Please can you just understand, and it doesn't help you ...

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Richardson ...
I have tried very hard can you just try to do that.  Can you have another shot.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.
 Mr Richardson, you did tell us, did you not, that the amount of ten thousand rand was agreed between yourself and Pretorius in exchange for the information you gave him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Were you to get anything in exchange of giving Pretorius information about the killers?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: When did you, in terms of date become a police informant?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: When did you for the first time agreed to Pretorius that you gave him information in exchange of buying of cars?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us the month?

JERRY RICHARDSON: March.

MR SEMENYA: You've also told us that Pretorius who was silenced, did you mean he was killed deliberately?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: By whom?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying there was a plan to kill Pretorius on that day in your house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Who has made that plan.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Where was the plan made.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Semenya. You don't have to worry about ..

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order, thank you!

MR SEMENYA: Where was the plan made Mr Richardson.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Who was present when the plan was made to kill Pretorius?

JERRY RICHARDSON: HT Moodley.

MR SEMENYA: Who else?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : Erasmus.

MR SEMENYA: Who else?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Were you in Pretoria when they made this plan?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: It is 1995 when he tells you, or what year?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: But you are in prison this time, so did he tell you that they had made the plan in 1987 when this people got killed in your house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: No, I'm trying to understand.  Was he telling this information about events of 1987 when he would have had plans to kill Serg. Pretorius?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Let me try and cover with you what appears in your amnesty application.
 It appears there that you have killed (indistinct) in December of 1989.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Is that date correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Is that date correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I'm not sure but if there is a date we'll go by that date.

MR SEMENYA: Now this is your application Sir, it's not mine.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is it.

MR SEMENYA: And you killed Sono and Shabalala in October 1988, is that right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that's right.

MR SEMENYA: Now, I don't understand this, did you kill Sono and Shabalala before the cadres got killed in your house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: One can be mistaken.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]

JERRY RICHARDSON: No English translation.

MR SEMENYA: Can I solicit your assistance in solving it then?  According to this date, you killed Sono and Shabalala before the cadres are killed in your house.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't have any information thereof.

MR SEMENYA: Did you kill them before Sergeant Pretorius was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I bear no information as far as that is concerned.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] did you kill them?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I have no information thereof.

MR SEMENYA: Have you applied for amnesty for the killing of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I've applied for amnesty for Joyce, Sizwe and Stompie and the rest of those other names.

MR SEMENYA: Have you applied for amnesty for the killing Sibuniso Shabalala and Lolo Sono, that's my question?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I have applied for amnesty with regard to those.

MR SEMENYA: I must ask you Sir, did you kill them before Sergeant Pretorius was killed in your house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: Can you help us here?  According to your evidence, anybody who is branded an informer is severely assaults and/or killed, is that right? - by the soccer team?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is right.

MR SEMENYA: And according to you, you have been branded an informer by Sonwabo, is that right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that's right.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]  according to you, by Erasmus, is that right? - or Moodley, one of the two.

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is not complete, please mention all of them.

MR SEMENYA: Can you help me with the other people who branded you an informer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: ...[indistinct] did you ...[indistinct] now?  Did you mention Paul Erasmus?  Did you mention T H Moodley?  The fourth one, I'm not sure, I'm still investigating that.

MR SEMENYA: How come Mandela United Football Club didn't kill you for being an informer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: This football I have here, I worked with it or I used it in Pretoria and that is why I'm here today.

MR SEMENYA: Can you tell us more?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did the members of the Mandela United Football Club assault you?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, they never assaulted me.

MR SEMENYA: Why don't assault you or kill you because you have been branded an informer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was first labelled as a sell-out by Sonwabo and the next time it's here in Commission, it's only Semenya who is capitalising on that and the R10.0000.

MR SEMENYA: No, I thought you are saying that once somebody is called an informer they would be killed, how come you were not assaulted and/or killed by the members of the football team?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk about Cebekhulu for a little while.  According to the evidence, Cebekhulu was also said to have been sodomised when he was brought to the house, is that right?
MR RICHARDSON

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And Pelo and some of them were severely assaulted for being sodomised - according to the allegation?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is so.

MR SEMENYA: Why was Cebekhulu not assaulted?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't have any knowledge thereof.

MR SEMENYA: No, but you're assaulting them, why didn't you assault Cebekhulu?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I've been convicted for four cases and Cebekhulu did not lay any charges against me.

MR SEMENYA: Why did you not assault Cebekhulu for allowing himself to be sodomised because that was the allegation against the rest?