Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-06

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually Sir, the bus - there might have been two or three or four, but the majority of the people who are boarding that bus were white.  So actually, when you are even in any situation of war there are casualties.  There might have been blacks in that bus, two or three or Coloured in the bus, that would have been an unfortunate situation for them, but the target was basically based on the white settlers.

MR RILEY: But you didn't know these white people, you didn't know their creed, beliefs, they could have been APLA people themselves, they could have been ANC members.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Sir, I've mentioned it earlier that I had nothing personal against the people who were in the bus, I didn't them, I don't know their background, I don't know their families or whatever, I don't know whether they have children or what, but as a loyal soldier I was just carrying out the orders that were given to me by Sichumiso.  I think maybe I have answered your question, Sir.

MR RILEY: Mr Henge, won't you be kind enough, did I understand you were with another APLA member at the time of the attack?  You were with another APLA member at the time of the attack.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: And did I also understand that what you in fact intended to do on that particular midnight, was to cause greatest possible damage?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: I understood that you said that what you actually wanted to achieve was to disable the driver so that he could let the bus go down into the river there.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: It didn't matter to you at that time, as I understand you, who was involved, what would happen to the people.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: First, as I understand, what you are trying to do, you are trying to make me a criminal.

MR RILEY: Well are you or ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Well he's not trying to make you a criminal, with the greatest of respect.  I think you must accept as you've said, that your intention was to great maximal harm, to create as big an incident as possible.  Now the consequences of that are that many people would be killed, including innocent people, that's something you have to live with.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes Sir, at that time, as I stated, it didn't matter to me the fact that I pointed the gun and shoot at the bus, so it didn't matter that who or whatever would ...(indistinct) but the political motive would have been achieved.  That was what I was trying to do.

MR RILEY: Mr Henge, I want to say to you that in fact you had no reason, you didn't have a reasonable belief at that time that there would only be white people in that bus.  As we all know now there were several Coloured people, old people, children and poor innocent victims on that bus.  So your argument that that bus was supposedly going to contain white people or it's frequented by them, I'm afraid to say I put it to you that it doesn't hold water.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually Sir, as I've said, there might have been casualties or blacks and whatever, but the majority of the people who were in the bus were people who were benefiting from the State, whites.  So to the African people who were in the bus, PAC members who were in the bus, Coloured people who were in the bus, ANC members who were in the bus, the attack was not directed on them, but that was an unfortunate situation, the majority of the people were whites.

MR RILEY: You see Mr Henge, some of the victims have asked me why choose a bus with elderly people, children in it, why choose that bus, why not go and shoot up the police station there in the Beaufort West dorpie?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I didn't select the bus, I was given an order, Sir, so that question would be answered by Sichumiso or Polite or whoever who was in the High Command, not me.  They gave me an order, so I carried out the order to shoot the bus, that's all.

MR RILEY: The fact of the matter is it appears as if your targets in fact were basically soft targets, is it not so?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: In your view, Sir.

MR RILEY: Well what is your opinion on that?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: My opinion Sir, is that one, you go to any institution, the post office or whatever, white lady is standing there or whites is standing there, she or he is benefiting the government who is in power, the police who are there, they are protecting these white people.  And APLA shot so many police but there was no, the country didn't feel that, but when APLA chose to shoot at the people who put that government into power, that is when I think they heard the call of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: But I mean he's talking about soft and hard targets, are you saying that shooting a bus at midnight is a hard target?  From the military point of view, or would you regard it as a soft target?  Do you know the difference between a hard target and a soft target?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I think there's a problem because of course he was given just a crash course, it would be a bit difficult for him to differentiate in terms of military, the hard and soft targets.

MR LAX: Well let's explain it to you, and I'm going to explain this to you in the context of the armed struggle.  The ANC, for example, adopted a position up until approximately 1986/'87, the Kabwe Conference, where they decided that only hard targets - hard target was defined as a military or police target, a Security Force target, in other words, people who would be armed, innocent civilians would be avoided at all costs.  Now soft targets are innocent or civilian targets, people who you would shoot who wouldn't necessarily be armed, who wouldn't necessarily be able to fight back.  So that is, in broad terms, the distinction.  Were you aware of any such distinction in your training or in APLA's modus operandi?  In other words, the way they carried out their struggle.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: To me, Sir, I was never told of soft and hard targets, I only saw enemies and the people who trained me, actually I never went in that aspect.

MR RILEY: Thank you, Chair.
	Mr Henge, I want to put it to you with the greatest of respect, that you don't have to be militarily trained to know the difference between a soft and a hard target.  And I want to put it to you with respect, that you knew at that time, irrespective of your length of training at that time, that that was in fact an easy sitting duck target.  They're coming by there, you're laying there in the ravine or wherever the case may be, and you then proceed to attack them.  How can't you know that it's an easy target?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: You put it in "easy targets", yes I knew it's an easy target.

MR RILEY: In fact, Mr Henge, let me hear you on this aspect.  Do you agree with me that what you in fact did, irrespective of what your motive was at that time, was a cowardly and cruel deed?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: What I did at that time was a cowardly and cruel deed?

MR RILEY: Do you agree with that?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: No, Sir, I don't agree with that.

MR RILEY: Why don't you agree with that?  How would you describe that conduct of yours?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I describe it as a very politically motivated deed, Sir, and actually I never wanted to injure or hurt anyone.  So by putting it coward and whatever, that don't get into me, Sir.

MR RILEY: How can you say you didn't want to injure anyone, Mr Henge?  That was your sole purpose, you wanted to kill people.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I say, Sir, my aim personally as I grew up, I never grew up as someone who wants to injure or kill or whatever, but the situation forced me to take that route.

MR RILEY: I've already said to you that at that time there was no reason for that, because the elections were taking place the next year.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually, Sir, you were not in the PAC executive to give that decision, Sir.