Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm now calling Xolani Cuba to the witness stand.

XOLANI CUBA: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson for the purposes of this hearing I'll use Mr Seyisi's affidavit.
	Mr Cuba do you confirm that you have read Mr Seyisi's affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: That is the affidavit that commences on page 12 of the papers?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I do affirm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you understand it's contents?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I do understand.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you also want it to be part of your affidavit as in as far as it relates to you?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I will not dispute that but whenever I come across anything that I do not know I'll point it out to the Commission or the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: So what Mr Mbandazayo is asking you is do you confirm that insofar as this affidavit of Mr Seyisi relates to you, do you confirm that it is correct?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I do affirm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Cuba can you tell the Committee whether did you see the limpet mine when you were still in your residence with Mr Namba?

XOLANI CUBA: I never saw the limpet mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you aware that Mr Namba had a limpet mine with him?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes he had told me that he was in possession of a limpet mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At what stage did he tell you?

XOLANI CUBA: I think it was on the 29th November in the afternoon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, what did he tell you was going to be the purpose what are you going to do with the limpet mine, why did he tell you about the limpet mine?

XOLANI CUBA: He told me that since we knew each other he had been introduced to me earlier on by Ndoda, that he was an APLA cadre.  He further told me that he was living in Durban.  We were just carrying on some conversation and he told me that he was on a mission.  He further explained to me that he was in possession of a limpet mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did he tell you what was going to be his target?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes he did.  He said to me it could be Brighton Beach or Umbilo Police Station.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you become aware that it's going to be Umbilo Police Station?

XOLANI CUBA: I was not sure that it was going to be Umbilo Police Station but the following day a we travelled, I did suspect that we were heading for Umbilo but I was not yet positive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Cuba, in your application for amnesty, page 5 at paragraph 10(b) you mention there in one of the paragraphs that "I never knew that he had such articles as described in annexure A until 30th November 1993 when it exploded in the bus we were travelling in.  Now can you explain that to the Committee because you have just told the Committee that he told you that on the 29th November he told you that he had a limpet mine.  What do you mean by that?

XOLANI CUBA: What I wanted to point out was that I never actually saw the limpet mine but he had told me that he was in possession of a limpet mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Cuba, it has been testified before this Committee that you were in the bus seated next to Mr Namba.  Did you see him handling the limpet mine in the bus?

XOLANI CUBA: No because I did not take any notice of anything that he did during the bus ride.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you suffer any injuries as a result of that explosion?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I sustained some injuries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Cuba, when you got on the bus at the Pine Street terminals, did you know where you were going to?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I knew.

MR NEL: Where were you going to?

XOLANI CUBA: We were headed for Umbilo.

MR NEL: But, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought I heard you saying that you suspected that you were going to Umbilo?  Were you suspecting that you were going to Umbilo or did you know?

XOLANI CUBA: I said I knew that we were going to Umbilo but I was not sure as to whether he was heading or we were heading for the area where we were going to carry out the mission.

MR NEL: Well at the time did you know that you were heading for somewhere to carry out a mission?

XOLANI CUBA: No at that time I did not know that we were going to carry out a mission.

MR NEL: Did you ask this person why you're going to Umbilo or why you had to accompany him to Umbilo?

XOLANI CUBA: I never asked him because we were always talking and if you're not a member of APLA but you kept on asking a lot of questions, they would view you suspiciously.

MR NEL: It's for that very same reason, Mr Cuba, that I  found it very strange that a member of the armed wing of the PAC would tell you that he's a trained cadre, would take you into his confidence, tell you about his missions, tell you that he's carrying a limpet mine.  Are you not today trying to play down your role in this whole issue?

XOLANI CUBA: I'm not running away from the part that I played but I'm not going to agree with anything that I do not know because I told you that as he had told me about this, he did not say that on that particular day we were going to carry out the mission.  If that was so, he knew it but I did not know it.  The fact that I did not ask him was because he would have viewed me with suspicion, that is my own opinion, I don't say it is so.

MR NEL: Could you please explain to us how this limpet     landed up in your black bag?

XOLANI CUBA: We had stayed with him for quite a few days, that is Vuyani.  He used to use my bag whenever he went to town so he was using it at the time.

MR NEL: Were you staying with him or was he staying with you at Number 85, something View Street in Red Hill?

XOLANI CUBA: I could say we were staying together because we were sharing a house.

MR NEL: Where did he come from with this limpet, do you know?

XOLANI CUBA: I never enquired as to where he is coming from, he was introduced to us.  We were told his name as well as what he had come to do, as to where he came from, I do not know.

MR NEL: In this very same black bag that was found on the scene, your passport was found in the bag?

XOLANI CUBA: That is correct.

MR NEL: And the person who examined the bag, a Warrant du Preez, who according to his statement on page 100 in the bundle, who is an explosives expert, says in his expert opinion on the last paragraph
"Ek vermoed dat die eienaar van die drasak direk betrokke is by die onploffing aangesien die stofprop verwyder moet word voordat die ontsteker kan aktiveer word."
Which seems to indicate ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did the translator get that Afrikaans translation?

INTERPRETER: It will need to be translated into English.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you could just, that portion that you read out in Afrikaans, Mr Nel, if you could give your own interpretation of that but it seems to say that in my opinion the owner of the bag is directly involved in the explosion because the detonator, because they found a detonator in the bag, the detonator which was found in the bag must be removed from the mine before it is activated, is that right?  Before it can be activated.

MR NEL: Mr Chairperson yes, that is fairly correct except that the detonator stays in the limpet mine and it is covered with a dust cover, that is the "stofprop".

CHAIRPERSON: "Stofprop" the dust cover.  Well if you give your own interpretation, I'm sure it will be better than mine.