Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

ADV DE JAGER: Did you form a team?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, that is not the case.  We were two with respect to these cars.  There were three cars, but I was not involved in the third car.

ADV DE JAGER: And the other car you were involved with was Mr Ngo present?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, he was not present.

ADV DE JAGER: He did not watch the car or do anything in connection with the other car?  He was not there at all?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Well, in respect of Jani Mohapi's car, he was involved, but the second car and the third car he was not.

MR VISSER: Which were the other two cars that you refer to, Mr Motsamai?  Please identify them for us.  The one is Jani Mohapi's Ford Cortina and the other?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That belonged to Teacher Thabatha.

MR VISSER: Yes, and the third one?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Jabararu, the third one I never attacked, but I attacked the house.  That belonged to City.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now, do you know anything, and you were asked the question a moment ago and you said, yes, you were part of the attack, do you know anything of an attack on a mini-bus belonging to Elia Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

MR VISSER: Well, ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I forgot to state that I know nothing about that incident.  I mentioned three cars.  When I mentioned three cars, that one I know nothing about.  The one that I never stated I know nothing about, from the three that I mentioned.

MR VISSER: How, what is your reaction to the fact that Mr Ngo implicates you also in the burning of that car, as I read his evidence?
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I do not think Mr Visser is entitled to put the question to the witness nor that, nor is it fair to state it categorically that he is actually implicated in the burning of the other vehicle.  The sentence, as I read it, says that,
"Within the course of two weeks the team consisting of ..."
the people mentioned there were involved in the petrol bombing of the various vehicle, vehicles.  It does not go as far as to say on each occasion each member of the team was present in the burning of each vehicle.

MR VISSER: But we did have his evidence, Mr Chairman, and  he was asked this specifically and he said Mr Motsamai was there.

CHAIRPERSON: I, the question, as I understood it, related to Mr Ngo's evidence.  It may be that you find yourself in some difficulties now with your two clients giving conflicting versions as they have in other instances.  It is a matter that you should, perhaps, have considered earlier.

ADV MEMANI: The way I understand it, Mr Chairman, it is being put that that is what is stated here in this paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, did you not say his evidence?

MR VISSER: I thought I ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Well, I think if his evidence merely confirms the prima facie view of this paragraph.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

MR VISSER: And with respect, Mr Chairman, I can understand the discomfort of my learned friend, because Mr, Commissioner de Jager specifically brought this to the attention of Mr Memani at the pre-trial conference, because this was foreseen and he assured all of us that there is no conflict of interest.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, carry on with the examination.  It is, we could argue (microphone not on).

MR VISSER: Let us go on to the parental home of City Mzuzwana.  Is it, is my impression correct, Mr Motsamai, that City Mzuzwana's house was attacked while he was in detention?  Is that your evidence?

ADV DE JAGER: His parent's home?

MR VISSER: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: His parent's home?

MR VISSER: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  Not his home?

MR VISSER: No, no.  His parent's home was attacked while he, City, was in detention.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And according to your evidence he, they did not succeed in turning him into an informer and then one morning Coetzee and Shaw told you and Mamome that his car was at this house in Mshwesh Street.  Do you remember saying that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: Which house was this is Mshwesh Street that you were referring to, Mr Motsamai?  May I attempt to help you. Is that the house of City's parents?  Is that in Mshwesh Street?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: All right.  And then, apparently, you received instructions that the car and the house should be petrol bombed so that the parents should understand to reprimand City Mzuzwana for the political activities he was participating in or words to that effect.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.  They tried to talk to him by recruiting him.  He refused.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is why we got the instructions.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I just want to make absolutely certain, when I read your application, that there is no doubt about the fact that at page 147, paragraph six, you apply for the petrol bombing of a parental house of City Mzuzwana. That is all I am trying to establish, but you went there to bomb the car and the house, not so, and, in fact, you did that?  You petrol bombed the house as well as the car?  Do you have any reply?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Okay.  And then we come to the incident concerning the shooting of City Mzuzwana's brother and we now know that that is Matthew.  Now, apparently, if I remember correctly, there was some evidence that you gave about Mamome coming to you, it was just past five in the afternoon and he said, Boysi, I received a telephone message from Shaw which informed me of a meeting of Mico at the AME Church.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

MR VISSER: And then you kept on referring to a person by the name of Muskwe and we now know that that is Matthew, the brother of City Mzuzwana, that he was present at this meeting and that they were carrying knives to attack the security branch if they were stopped in the street.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And, just to go very quickly through your evidence.  You went with Mr Mamome to a certain place where you found a big yellow van, you got into the van, spoke to the people inside.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome spoke to those people.

MR VISSER: Yes, and he warned them about the fact that the people on the street might be armed with knives, you told us so.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that was their influence.

MR VISSER: And then, at some point  (intervention) ...
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the witness was still answering the question.

MR VISSER: He said yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That was Sergeant Mamome's influence or rather than the tactic that he used so that these people would manage to stop the others at a certain stage.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, I am just going on what you told us in-chief, Mr Motsamai, and, apparently, at some stage Mr Matthew was shot, Mzuzwana was shot, and it was suggested to you by my learned friend, Mr Stander, that he was shot by a person - perhaps my learned friend could just pronounce it over the microphone, Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: It was my instruction that it was a certain Mr Mogashane.

MR VISSER: Well, now there you have it.

INTERPRETER: May we have that spelt please.

MR STANDER: I am going to try.  It is M O G A S H A N E.

INTERPRETER: Onhoorbaar.

MR STANDER: M O G A S H A N E.

INTERPRETER: It is pronounced Mogoshane.

MR VISSER: Well, let me put it to you what facts I have, quickly, before lunch.  I want to put it to you that a person by the name of Constable Ramolefe, R O M, R A M O L E F E, a Constable in the Riot Squad was the person who shot Matthew Mzuzwana.  Do you know about that?