Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

MR MAPOMA: Now the issue of the resignation of Gqozo does not appear in the list that you made.  Why?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It is because when it had appeared, because we were making copies of that list, we didn't want that to be slipped or to go to the wrong hands.  The fact that we placed our police demands in front, we knew our main aim, that is why we didn't include it in our list, the issue about Gqozo.

MR MAPOMA: Now when the commissioner arrived in the meeting, you put your grievances to him, if I understand, in fact you said - I mean, you did put your grievances to him and you said he was going to have a meeting with the brigadier, why did you not tell the commissioner that you want the brigadier that he was going to meet, resign?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: You are asking if - you wanted us to tell him about the brigadier that he was going to meet.  We saw that as being dangerous.  He just said that we must give him some few minutes, he was going to meet with Brig Gqozo.  We knew very well that that was the last meeting between the two of them and indeed that happened as we planned it.

MR MAPOMA: But why did you want the commissioner?  You were already engaged then in a mutiny exercise then, why did you allow the commissioner to go and sensitise Gqozo about your actions, if you wanted Gqozo to step down?  I don't know if you understand me well in this?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I do understand you.  What happened is, the police operate like this.  You discuss issues, all of you would discuss issues and you would plan something.  It's like when we were going to raid thieves in a certain area, there would be police amongst us who would go forward and tell those thieves what we were going to do, so if you were operating you were supposed to treat this in a secret way.  We didn't tell the commissioner that we wanted Gqozo to resign.  When he asked a few minutes to go and meet with him, we thought that it was going to be few minutes.  We didn't want him to think or suspect that we were aiming at removing Brig Gqozo and indeed our plan did work, that happened.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Mfene.  Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Are there any questions on the panel?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes please.  Just bear with me for a moment.
Mr Mfene, was there a leader of the officers of lower rank, official or unofficial?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I was the leader, unofficial leader.

ADV BOSMAN: You have a few times used the phrase "it happened as we planned it" and you have a few times said "we planned it and so it happened".  Now who are the we?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I am referring to myself and the police who occupied lower ranks, certain police.

ADV BOSMAN: Were the police of lower rank in favour of your viewpoint?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: I find this difficult to understand that all the senior police, or most of the senior police officers seem to have been in favour of Gqozo and the ones of lower rank, not in favour of Gqozo.  Why is this?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I would like to explain this.  Amongst the officers who are sitting here and other officers there are those who were promoted immediately after that happened, because they were also complaining, they were saying that they were also oppressed.  They were afraid to raise their voice because the senior police would go and report so they would be demoted and they would be on the lower ranks.  So a lot of police from the former Ciskei were supporting my action.

ADV BOSMAN: And then the planning you refer to, what planning took place?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Can you please repeat that question?

ADV BOSMAN: You refer to planning, that it happened as we planned it, and our plans came about, what planning took place?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The plan that we made was that as we were called on the 22nd there was not voice saying that the meeting had been postponed or cancelled, so we had to use that meeting in trying to remove Brig Gqozo from his position.

ADV BOSMAN: What I'm trying to ascertain is what planning?  When did you plan this and how did you plan it?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I've already said Nqoya didn't call us once, he called us to a meeting and then when we were preparing ourselves to go to that meeting to meet with our leader, he would postpone that meeting and we would receive another minute saying that the commissioner would like to meet with us on a particular date and then when we were preparing for that particular day, we were preparing to discuss issues with our superiors, we knew that amongst us there were those who would go and tell him and then he would then postpone the meeting.  He then gave us the date of the 22nd of March.  He gave out that date mid-February, and then he didn't change that particular date until the 22nd, so we had planned as the police.

ADV BOSMAN: What I'm trying to get at is did you then formally get together and plan something?  The lower officers, did you get together formally or informally as a group and make some plans?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We wouldn't meet, we'd just meet on the way and then we would say this issue will go on on that particular date because the date had not yet been cancelled, so we had to raise our voice, but we wanted that man to be removed from his position.

ADV BOSMAN: Who is that man now, the commissioner?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Brig Gqozo.

ADV BOSMAN: The money that was withdrawn by the commissioner, to whom was it given?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The money that was withdrawn by the commissioner was taken to the DC, it was taken to a safe in Zwelitsha and then it was divided amongst the police according to their contribution.  Each and every police would be given certain money according to his contribution.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it divided among all the policemen in the Ciskei of the time or just certain of them?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.  It was divided amongst all the police.

ADV BOSMAN: Even the officers who were in favour of Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The officers had their own sport club, they did not contribute to this money of the non-commissioned officers.

ADV BOSMAN: Oh, was this a sports club contribution?  Were these sports club contributions?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Some of the money was the sports club and there was money known as orphaned fund which was money responsible for widows and the children of the police who died would be helped.  That was the aim of that money, but they misused that money.  They used that money for their own personal purpose.

ADV BOSMAN: But each person who had made a contribution got something back.  Is that correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: No thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mfene you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman I will call Mr Nkwenkwe who appears as number 1.  His application is from page 1 to page 8, Mr Chairman, of the paginated bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: How long is his testimony likely to be?  Let's take his evidence in chief, how long will that be?

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman I suppose anything between 15 to 25 minutes at the most.  I would imagine.  There is really nothing more that he's going to add except to add on certain other things which Mr Mfene couldn't touch on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We didn't plan to sit much beyond 4 o'clock.  Perhaps we should let him stand over until tomorrow and then dispose of his entire testimony in one sitting.  We will adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning and reconvene at 9 o'clock.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS