Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it is my recollection that it was only Mr Mbane himself who was with Nthombi.

MR SAMUEL: He will further state that Mr Radebe was driving the car and Mr Dube was seated in the front passenger seat.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Once again Chairperson, I cannot comment on that because it is my recollection that it was only he with Nthombi.

MR SAMUEL: He will also state that he was present in the back seat of the car with Nthombi.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Once again Chairperson, I cannot comment.

MR SAMUEL: Then could you explain, how is it that when you were at Winkelspruit, Mr Dube and Radebe were present at Winkelspruit when Nthombi was brought in.  If they all were to be on an operation together as you suggested to this Commission.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I've already explained the informer after Nthombi was brought to Winkelspruit, the fact that they worked there and stayed there.

MR SAMUEL: So are you suggesting to the Commission that at the time when Nthombi was picked up from the Durban Station, Dube and Mr Radebe were still at Winkelspruit, is that what you're suggesting to this Commission?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, that is my recollection of the events, that Mr Mbane was alone when he arrived there with Nthombi.

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy will also state that when he arrived with Mr Radebe and Mr Dube at Winkelspruit base, he found Nthombi blindfolded and tied both hands and legs with a piece of rope.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I cannot comment on that, it is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: According to your evidence which Jimmy confirms, that they had a room next to where the interrogation took place.  Is that correct?  Do you confirm that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, but it was not a room which was closed on one side, it had three sides with walls and it was open on the other side.  It was more of a cover.

MR SAMUEL: That's right.  Jimmy will say that at the time when Nthombi was beaten, the door to the interrogation room was at some stage opened and he had seen you specifically, beat Nthombi with a whip.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it is possible that the door was open and it is possible that he may have seen, but I didn't hit her.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that you had in your possession, whilst you were hitting her, a sjambok, a black sjambok.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative.  I did not have a sjambok, Col Taylor had it.

MR SAMUEL: Do you recall a person by the name of Sbu that was handed to you by Jimmy prior to the day of this incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall the person by the name of Sbu.

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy will say he handed over a man by the name of Sbu to you and that later you all had killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't quite hear that Mr Samuel, you said he will say that he handed Sbu over to you, that is Col Botha and then who killed him?

MR SAMUEL: And Col Botha and the other policemen had killed Sbu.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, that is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now, I turn to page 6, sorry page 4, paragraph 14 of your statement, Exhibit B.  In paragraph 14 you say that Mbane was alone in the motor vehicle with Mrs Khubeka.  Do you read that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy will deny that he was alone, as I pointed out earlier and he will say that Dube and Simon Radebe were present in the motor vehicle and in the position that I outlined to you earlier.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, my recollection of the events is that Mr Mbane was driving the vehicle and that Nthombi was with him.

MR SAMUEL: I turn now to page 5, paragraph 21 where you say that Radebe was asked to stay outside.  Mbane and Radebe were asked to stay outside the door of the interrogation room.  Jimmy will say that Mr Dube was also present at that time and it was not only him and Mr Radebe, but also Dube that was present outside the interrogation room.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is possible.  I accept that Dube was outside because he definitely wasn't inside.

MR SAMUEL: So you agree that Dube, your statement, paragraph 21 of your statement is incorrect, that Dube could have been in the vicinity?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: I turn now to paragraph 23 of page 5 and Jimmy will say that he saw you participate in the assault upon Mrs Khubeka and it was not only Mr Taylor that had hit or assaulted Mrs Khubeka.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Once again I will say Chairperson that that is not correct.  I did not participate in any assault on Mrs Khubeka.

MR SAMUEL: Now I turn to page 6 paragraph 30.  Before I put my client's version to you, I just want to ask you a question regarding your earlier evidence, or your answer to a question raised by the learned Chairman.  The Chairman had asked you if Mr Mbane did not want to cooperate with you and if she had not suffered the heart attack, what would have been the position.  Your response was that you all would have denied that she was assaulted by your Special Forces as such.  Am I correct in saying that?  That was your response.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, just one thing.  I think that he is referring to Mrs Khubeka, not Mr Mbane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, you made a mistake of the, a patent mistake, its Mrs Khubeka.

MR SAMUEL: Mrs Khubeka.  My apologies.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, and it is correct that a portion of my evidence was in reference to that.

MR SAMUEL: But at the same time you told this Commission that you wanted to protect the identity of the askaris, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now if that scenario had appeared where Mrs Khubeka did not want to co-operate and she did not suffer the heart attack, how would you then have protected the identities of the askaris, especially since Mrs Khubeka knew the askaris that you were dealing with?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: She would then have co-operated with us.

MR LAX: He is posing to you the scenario that she wouldn't have, or if, in the situation where she didn't work with you, you were going to take your chances around the assault.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Then the question is, in that case, how would you protect your askaris?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I think that I testified that we then would have been able to detain her and take our chances of explaining the assault on her, with the result that the askaris had already been exposed, because they were askaris we would use them in a pseudo operation.  The protection of the askaris was to protect their identities while the operation was still underway, but when the operation was concluded, it was no longer necessary to protect their identities.

CHAIRPERSON: So in fact you're saying, there was - once you decided to hold her, there'd be no need to protect the askaris?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now why would that position be?  Wouldn't she be released at some stage or the other, or did you intend to kill her, Sir?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, once again I will explain.  As far as the operation was underway, the askaris' identities would be protected.  Once it was concluded, the protection of identities was no longer necessary because they were members of the South African police.  There were various methods in which this could be handled and I think that Capt Baker, or Col Baker will be in a better position to explain in terms of under which circumstances, what type of scenario would be used.

MR SAMUEL: And as was pointed out by you earlier, that Mr Taylor was in overall command of the operations, am I right?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.