Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

DR RANDERA: Dudu and Sibusiso I just want you both to comment on this okay.  Reading both your statements there is almost an impression created that there's a natural progression and let me explain that.  The Football Club starts in 1986, you Dudu say, and your son say there is some unhappiness, in fact threats are made within weeks of the Football Club starting, okay.  Then in your own words you say there is a lull, nothing happens and Sibusiso says he is able to walk around Soweto freely, he is able to walk around Orlando freely, and we know, I mean we've heard over the last eight or nine days again that all these other things are happening.  Now we suddenly go to 1989 and the threats or you hear again that your son's life is at stake, now I want to actually try and separate, if I can, what happened in '86 from '89 because to me it doesn't seem to make sense.  And is it possible that something happened between Sibusiso and some of the young people because again the impression that's being created is there is this Club that's formed in 1986 and there's a continuity to 1989, but is it possible that something happened between Sibusiso and some of the young people who lived, or may happen to have lived in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's yard that initiated this thing again in February of 1989?

MD D CHILI: Commissioner when I went to approach Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about why the Football Club was wanting to kill Sibusiso and the response that I have already said here, I approached my cousin who has been a long-standing friend to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I was still at school when they were friends, and they are still friends even today, and incidentally it happened that she married, she got married to a man who his daughter got married to Magatu, Mr Mandela's son.  I went to Nono my cousin and I said Nono I don't know what is happening but I know you are good friends, you are friends with Mrs Mandela, would you intervene for Sibusiso's sake, and I had thought when this thing lulled I thought maybe Nono did go and approach her. That was my belief. I never followed it up but when it stopped I said maybe Nono did approach her.

DR RANDERA: Dudu sorry again, we are talking about almost a two year period between the - maybe I am being quite liberal in terms of two years between the beginning and the ending, that's what I am trying to understand.

MS D CHILI: I stated here I think the thing that triggered it again it was when Lerothodi pointed two boys who helped Richardson when he was cutting Lerothodi, injuring Lerothodi, that these two boys were pointed to Sibusiso by Lerothodi saying these are the two young men who helped Richardson when they were attacking me.  When Sibusiso said Lerothodi let's not fight them, let's take them to Mama so that they can talk to them, and later it was said that one of the boys was summonsed, I don't know whether Mrs Mandela was aware or it was just the Football Club alone but he was summonsed to Mrs Mandela's house and after that, that's when it came that they have become problematic, they have got to be killed.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.  I had decided not to say anything but I want to make a follow-up.  The question was asked whether you did go to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to talk about what was happening, especially after the burning of your house and you said you didn't, am I correct?

MS D CHILI: Yes I didn't, yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: And you said that you expected her to come to you, why would she come to you?

MS D CHILI: Commissioner, if Mrs Mandela is a leader and we are working in the same camp if it was me who had done something bad to her I am sure I would have come back to my senses and said look I have wronged Mrs Mandela, let me bow down and say Mrs Mandela I am sorry because I have wronged you.  I expected that she would come and say Dudu, let's bury the hatchet, it was a mistake that happened, but it never happened.

KHOZA MGOJO: I am just checking that had she considered that she had done something wrong to you?

MS D CHILI: You mean to say was she aware?

KHOZA MGOJO: No I am just saying, has she considered that she had done something wrong to you which would force her to come to you and say that Dudu I am sorry I have done this thing?

MS D CHILI: I don't know.

KHOZA MGOJO: You don't know.

MS D CHILI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Let's say she had come to you, I think firstly there was a question which was directed to you so that for the sake of reconciliation you would find it very hard because there are so many people involved, you say that the child died in the fire and it involved another family, what would you have done if she did come to you?

MS D CHILI: I didn't say it was going to be hard, I said let it happen, but it never happened.

KHOZA MGOJO: Was it going to be easy for you to make reconciliation if she did come to you?

MS D CHILI: Yes if she has come the way I said she could come and we sat down I would.

DR BORAINE: Mr Unterhalter.

MR UNTERHALTER: Three short questions Dudu.  When you went to see Mrs Mandela about the pressure which was being put on Sibusiso to join the Club did she apologise then that any pressure was being on him at all?  Did she say I will take steps to see that there is no coercion being placed on your son?

MS D CHILI: No, the answer was that if he is not in the Football Club obviously the other youth members would suspect him to be a sell-out.  That was the answer.

MR UNTERHALTER: Then secondly, at these hearings did you encounter Charles Zwane, did he speak to you?

MS D CHILI: He did speak to me.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what did he say to you?

MS D CHILI: In fact he was grateful that I came and spoke to him, that he has suffered for so many years with this thing inside him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS D CHILI: And for me talking to him it's such a relief within him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did he admit to any responsibility for the burning of your house and did he apologise for it?

MS D CHILI: No not exactly because he said there's a young man who identified him on a parade that he was party to the bombing of my house and that he denies he did it.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see.  Can I ask you then lastly, after your house was burnt down did you have to live in safe houses for a period of time?

MS D CHILI: Yes for a long time I was moved from place to place.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes who was threatening you that you had to live in safe houses?

MS D CHILI: There was this fear that they made at the Football Club or they will still hit at us. So we were moved from place to place for safety.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chairperson there are just two final matters.  The first is that Dudu Chili would like to make a statement of gratitude to Todo but before she does so we have two statements, one from Elliot Khumalo and the other from Jacob Maupai who we believe is Todo, we have made them available yesterday to either Hanif or Piers, we would like those statements either to be handed up or used for the purposes of determining these facts and we would just refer to them and perhaps in due course they could be made use of by the Commission.  But then we would like an opportunity for Dudu to make a statement on Todo.

DR BORAINE: Just before I give her an opportunity, the statements that are now being handed out has Mr Semenya had sight ...(intervention)

MR UNTERHALTER: I don't believe that he has.

DR BORAINE: Then I don't think we can really, at this late stage, well we can certainly accept them and I hope that copies will be made available immediately, but I don't think we should read that into the record unless we first confirm.

MR UNTERHALTER: No I am entirely happy just to refer to them and that they are available to the Commission.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mrs Chili you wanted to make a short statement.