Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

ADV POTGIETER: Because our Investigative Unit has started investigating the matter after we received the statement from you and as you said earlier - as you understood it appears as though this case in which your son was killed was an act committed by the members of the Vlakplaas Police Unit.  
 And perhaps you've red about it, there was a lengthy trial of one of the Commanding Officers of Vlakplaas - a Commander - a Colonel Eugene De Kock.  It was widely covered in the news and one of the incidents about which he gave evidence in court implied that one - it was an incident where your son was shot and it made mention of a cross border raid.  Where they crossed the borders into Lesotho.
And where they - the Police Officers from Vlakplaas killed 9 ANC people there.  So it seems as though that could be the case where your son was killed.  But it would help us if we could establish what his - what his alias - what his - his other name was that he was using.
 So it would be easier to look - go threw the records and also to give an indication of how far we've gotten on our side.  We - apart from the evidence given by Colonel De Kock in court - in Pretoria Court we also have secret documents in our possession which was a communication  between a Colonel Peters from the Safety Police - the Security Police here in Cape Town and a - and also Colonel Eugene De Kock in connection with the death of some of the people who were shot with your son.     
 The 2 names which we have - which are revered to there are Leon Meyer - his nickname was Joel, his MK name was Joel and then Themba Hector and seemingly these 2 people were in the same house as the one where your son was shot.  And it seems as if they had secret document dealt with that incident, so that - we already have that information and we also have a statement from a Lieutenant from the Security Police - Leon Riddenburg which also deals with this incident.  
 So we have those 3 sources of information and the matter is still being attended to but at this point in time it seems as though it was a Vlakplaas - an act committed by the Vlakplaas group.  But thus far that is the only information we have but we will sure to keep you enlightened of anything else that we might discover as we proceed to investigate.  Thank you very much Madam.

MS GOBODO: [indistinct] Maria, I know that Ouma Caroline was not sworn in and if she does speak as I am going to invite her if she wants I just want to put it on record that as far as the factual data relating to your testimony concerned your evidence is the evidence that we'll be recognizing as the sworn in evidence.  
But I would like you to ask Ouma Caroline if she wants to speak at all.  And she - she doesn't have to but please ask her.  Can I ask the briefer next to her to ask her if she wants to say something.  It's okay, she - it's going to be very difficult for her to say something but I do want to say that it - I know that it's very difficult for you - for Ouma especially because she brought him up and it must be - it must have been very hard for her.  
It must have been a very difficult  11 years for her to deal with the passing.  
If there's any comfort in the  [indistinct] history of our country is the fact that some of the past is beginning to emerge and we are - I think we are lucky that there are people like Eugene De Kock who can - who have finally been moved or forced to speak out and we're beginning to  [indistinct] some of these details together.  We're also lucky to have our investigators to look into how some of the stories that come to us at the Truth Commission link up with some of those - that material that comes out in the courts of this country.  
 That is a bit of comfort because though the linking of all that material we can eventually come up with what the true story is about what happened to these people who died across the borders was.  
 I wish to thank you very much but I wish to also extend a challenge to us that we would like you one day to be able say thank you to the Truth Commission for having found out the truth about what happened, thank you.