Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: You are on the floor, the video cassette we saw yesterday, I assume there were a few things before the portion we saw, immediately before the portion we listened to and also subsequent thereto.  Is there no danger that we may be listening to that just specific portion and then listen to it out of context?

MS VAN DER WALT: The portion which you viewed, was the only portion which was broadcast during a news bulletin on the SABC, wherein the news reader said that a case was being investigated regarding a crime that was committed.  That is all that appears on that cassette.
	I am listening to certain cassettes which were made at meetings.  If I could manage to trace that specific cassette from that specific meeting, then I will submit it, but that portion is the only portion which exists on that cassette, there wasn't anything further.  It was part of a news bulletin.

CHAIRPERSON: ... you know, sometimes it may be dangerous to listen to only a portion of a whole speech, you may misinterpret the whole thing?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And maybe before that, the speaker had laid down a lot of conditions and said well, you know what I mean, before he came to say you can shoot and the like, he might have said when the time comes, and only when the time comes, we don't know.   You know that kind of thing.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: It would be preferable to have as far as possible, the whole speech so that we can understand that portion properly.

MS VAN DER WALT: I was only notified yesterday afternoon regarding the cassettes from all the meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer?

MR DREYER: (continued)  Mr Kloppers, there was the interruption between yesterday and today and in order to be fair towards you, I would like to maintain the continuity of the cross-examination which I began yesterday.
	If I understand your testimony and answers in cross-examination correctly, you said yesterday that according to your opinion, there would have been a revolution on the 12th of December to the 15th of December of that year.  The war as you expressed it, would then commence on the 16th of December, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is not entirely correct Chairperson.

MR DREYER: Could you just explain it once again?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As I explained it, it was not my opinion that the revolution would begin on the 12th of December, it was an order from my Commander, Gen Oelofse that the 12th of December 1993 would be the day upon which the revolution would begin.  Whether the revolution would have lasted until the 16th of December or longer until the war began, I do not know.  Those were my own speculations that the war would begin on the 16th of December.

MR DREYER: Who would have taken the decision to go from revolution to war?  Where would that decision come from, which factors would determine that decision?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: These were my own speculations and opinions, I reckoned that it would be a good time if you look at my documents, which were thrown out of the Supreme Court in Bloemfontein as fabrications and lies, you will see that these were my own thoughts regarding the beginning of the war at that time.

MR DREYER: You are convinced that it was your own idea that the revolution would begin on the 12th of December and not that it was an order as such?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is not correct, I received an order that this would in fact happen and in accordance with the incidents which occurred after the 12th, not only within our area, but within other areas and regions, it appeared to me that the revolution had in fact begun.

MR DREYER: I asked you yesterday could you give us one single reason why the war as you believed, did not break out on the 16th of December and you said that you couldn't tell us why.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I can still not tell you why the war did not begin.  My area was prepared for war, whether the other areas were not prepared, there must be reasons for that.  I was arrested before the war could begin, or before anybody could make an attempt at starting the war.

MR DREYER: You were arrested on the 6th of January and that is quite some time after the 16th of December, therefore I don't understand what you mean when you say that you were arrested before the war could begin because I told you yesterday and you testified here, I indicated it to you during the criminal proceedings, that at at least four separate occasions you indicated very clearly that the war would commence on the 16th of December, so wherefore, where do you have the idea that you were arrested before the war could begin, if you were arrested on the 6th of January?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would like to state it clearly that these were my own thoughts and that is what I thought by myself that it would be a good time for the war to begin.  I did not convey this to anybody else, I did not express it to anybody else that the war should begin at that time.
	I did not have the authority for that.

MR DREYER: But I put it to you that this is a fabrication of your imagination that the war had to begin on the 12th of December and many people who believed irrevocably in you and served under your command and just as you were, were swept about by the political speeches of political leaders and other speakers, committed an act for which you did not receive an order from anybody else?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Mr Japie Oelofse, ex-General, who has resigned ...

MR DREYER: And for that we only have your word what you would have said?  An ear which was handed over to Gen Japie Oelofse.
	Could I just take you back for a moment, there was a whole discourse yesterday regarding which words were contained within your amnesty application in paragraph 44 thereof, where it was about the order which you received to do something on behalf of the AWB and that this was in cooperation with Constand Viljoen, as well as Ferdi Hartzenberg, do you recall that? 
	You then, with the assistance of your legal representative said that actually another name had to be inserted there, and that was the name of Gen Oelofse, but now I find it strange why Gen Oelofse would give you an order and then clear it not with the leader of your organisation, not in cooperation with the leader of the organisation, the AWB, he did not do it in cooperation or under order of Eugene Terreblanche, he according to you, did this in cooperation with Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg who had absolutely nothing to do with the AWB and this still bothers me, why would a member of the Generals in staff of the AWB find it necessary to clear the order or the legitimacy of the order with persons external to his organisation, when there was a higher cadre of command within his own organisation?
	Why didn't he clear it in cooperation?

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to object, the witness has stated that Japie Oelofse cleared it with the Generals in staff and he later said that he accepted that the Generals in staff had cleared it with Gen Constand Viljoen.

MR DREYER: Can I then still ask you Mr Kloppers, why in your application, in the sections where you mention the order, why there is no reference to Eugene Terreblanche who was part of the upper command structure of the AWB, why?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The leader Eugene Terreblanche himself, never issued an order.  It came directly from Generals in staff to the Generals and that is why use was made of Gen Japie Oelofse and I received my orders from him and under no circumstances did I attempt to imply that Gen Constand Viljoen had given orders.  I am simply trying to provide the facts that Gen Oelofse via the Generals in staff conveyed the order to us.