Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-24

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, among others in 1993 I attended a meeting where General Constant Viljoen, I beg your pardon Ferdie Hartzenberg, I am not exactly certain of the other persons present at that meeting. Constant Viljoen identified with the AWB and that together we would rise as a mighty "Boerevolk."  There were also members of the South African Defence Force who would see to the complete take over of the regime.

UNKNOWN: What would Constant Viljoen's share have been in this struggle?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: When the struggle would move to revolution Constant Viljoen and his generals would take over certain army bases camps and Ferdie Hartzenberg along with Yster and Staal as well as the Mine Workers Union would have brought about complete darkness in South Africa. The SABC, radio stations and so forth would also have been taken over.

UNKNOWN: What was the objective of this action?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The objective there of was to take over South Africa completely. The objective itself was to create chaos and despair so that not one of these people would have thought of participating in the elections if there were ever to be an election.

UNKNOWN: Why was the AWB and the other parties opposed to the elections?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We can only look at what is happening outside there today. It is exactly what we wanted to prevent. We did not desire this daily level of violence, car hi-jackings and the take over of the ANC/SACP Alliance.

UNKNOWN: During 1993 there was a meeting in the Assembly Hotel in Pretoria. Are you aware of that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes I myself was present.

UNKNOWN: And what happened there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Secret meetings were held where among others requests were made that all the members of the generals in staff arrive in civilian clothes. What the discussion itself involved I cannot answer because it was held in the greatest of secrecy. But the top figures such as Constant Viljoen and Mr Hartzenberg were aware as well as various other persons, names which I cannot provide because of the utter secrecy of the meetings. I was there to ensure the safety of General Jappie Oelofse.

UNKNOWN: Did General Jappie Oelofse tell you that a meeting had taken place?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes he did filter through certain information. One of which was very clear was that the revolution was at hand and that I had to mobilise my men on twenty four hour assistance. A decision was also taken that just as the ANC had been allowed to look at the stockpiling places of the South African Defence Force the AWB had also been allowed to go and look at these places.

UNKNOWN: There was also a meeting in Potchefstroom where the AWB was involved. Did you attend that meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes that was the national summit which was held in Potchefstroom. Not all my men but some of them did attend that meeting.

UNKNOWN: You yourself?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes I was there.

UNKNOWN: And what transpired?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Constant Viljoen was the chief speaker there. He still walked hand in hand with the AWB at that point and he also stated that he would not allow the South African government to be thrown overboard by the ANC/SACP Alliance.

UNKNOWN: And during 1993, more towards the end of the year the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche also addressed meetings where he announced revolution. Is that true?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Basically from the end of 1992 all the way through 1993 every meeting of Eugene Terreblanche was to such a degree so upsweeping that if one had attended a meeting there one would have murdered domestic help immediately.

UNKNOWN: What was his attitude towards the elections which were to take place in April 1994?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was clearly stated to us that even over the barrel of a gun we would not allow the elections to transpire. He emphasised that we should use all the means at our disposal. If we did not have any guns we would steal guns. We would have to acquire firearms but we would not allow the elections to take place.

UNKNOWN: You also have a video tape in your possession where in which he also states that the firearms are to be stolen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes that is correct. That was only one of the occasions which have been mentioned where he said that firearms should be stolen. In order to stop the proposed elections.

UNKNOWN: What does one do with a gun?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I am a game hunter. I have been trained as a soldier. One shoots to kill.

UNKNOWN: Therefore if Eugene Terreblanche said: "Steal guns," he did not want to go and have a party with those guns?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No. He stated it very clearly to us that even if it had to occur over the barrel of a gun. One would not just lie behind a gun just to shoot randomly. One shot to kill.

UNKNOWN: Did members of the AWB also manufacture firearms illegally which was known as the pipe gun?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Can you please repeat?

UNKNOWN: The pipe gun.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I missed the entire sentence.

UNKNOWN: Is it true that the AWB illegally manufactured firearms among others the pipe gun?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Why did the AWB do that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Partly because a shot gun bullets were very difficult to trace unless forensic tests could be undertaken. And secondly so that every person had access to such firearms without a great financial burden.

UNKNOWN: Was it intended to make war or was it intended for self defence?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The purpose was for the guerilla fighters because we acted in small groups. The guerilla fighters had to use these weapons in their attacks.

UNKNOWN: Do you regard yourself as a guerilla fighter?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Please note I regarded myself as a guerilla fighter.

UNKNOWN: In December 1993 General Oelofse called yourself and Mr Martin?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Why?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Can you be more specific please?

UNKNOWN: What happened when he called you? Why did he call you to meet him?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: On several occasions we had been called in to his head quarters among others on one specific occasion a knife was handed over to us directly to Mr Martin. It was an ordinary steak knife, the wood handle, the type one would find in a restaurant. This knife had to be used and this is how he put it, if we were to encounter corpses we had to use this knife to cut off an ear. He wanted to show the ear to the area armies to show how hard we were working.

UNKNOWN: In your application you say that in November 1993 General Oelofse called you and Deon Martin to his head quarters and it was said to you to be prepared on a twenty four hour basis.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Why did he do that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was after he had visited the stockpiling locations of all the South African Defence Force. They had visited these military bases or at least several of them. And it was decided by the generals and staff to take certain steps. But in November he asked us to be prepared on a twenty four hour basis.

UNKNOWN: Did he give any other further instructions with regard to food as such?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was a general situation that we were trained for. We had to stockpile extra food supplies; tinned food, water had to be frozen in the freezers, generators and so forth. Members of our family, friends and our (...indistinct) commando had to be prepared.

UNKNOWN: During that time where did you work?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I worked with Randfontein Estates. I was the senior training officer.

UNKNOWN: In which division?