Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, this is what I believe today, that's what I meant.  At that stage I not necessarily believed that.  Their versions differed concerning instructions that they gave, but the thing is that we did not agree, myself and Verster.  They told me I was like the mafia, I was very staunch.  I told Calla Botha that it seems as if Joe Verster's worrying about what I'm going to say here, because now Verster is in a position, he has to go through a cross-examination and he doesn't know what I'm going to say, two weeks later I'm going to come to the front and this is what happened now, I received an instruction from him, and I wanted to pacify him.  I went to Calla Botha and told him: "Go to Verster and tell him I will not testify anything about Webster, I will tell this Commission to go to hell" and Calla Botha returned to me and he was very disgusted.  He said: "You were so staunch with this guy and he said you can do what you want to".  But then he probably thought about it because the next day, after there was an adjournment and they did not take me away, Mr Verster came to sit next to me and then he said to me: no he's received my message and thank you very much and he's got a lot of respect for me, etcetera, but I have to fuck up the General, and he told me to fuck up the General.  Immediately afterwards, after Gen Webb came to sit next to me I asked Gen Webb, after I reported to him I will say I did not get the instruction from him because I did not, I got it from Verster, and he told me that he never gave the instruction.  And that's how it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?  Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: ... some questions at this stage about it, before I've looked at the documents, to save time.
	Mr Barnard, you say that you told Gen Webb at that stage that you will not talk about Webster and that you will not incriminate him in it.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I told him I will not testify about Webster that I received the instruction from you, because I did not get the instruction from you.  I wanted to calm him.

MR WESSELS: Did you suggest to him that Joe Verster would then have suggested to you to involve Webb in the Webster case?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I cannot say that.

MR WESSELS: Now Mr Barnard, you say as you are sitting here now, that you are of the opinion that Verster wanted you to incriminate Webb in the Webster incident.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is what I think today.

MR WESSELS: But if it is so, then it would mean that you will have to come and say that you were involved, you received an instruction.  You could not come forward and say that the instruction came directly from Gen Webb, because everybody knew that you did not act in that way.  So by incriminating Webb in the Webster case, you also had to incriminate Verster.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is possibly true, yes.

MR WESSELS: Then how can any rational person think that you could incriminate Webb and not incriminate Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: You are now talking about a rational person, I do not think Mr Verster's a rational person.

MR WESSELS: Yes Mr Barnard, maybe you are making inferences too quickly, which is not founded on anything.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, what did you hear about the weapons that were provided to Zulus just before the Boipatong massacre?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, they just told this to me. I cannot really connect it to the Boipatong massacre.  The only reason why I'm saying is that, and I have got no facts to substantiate it, because Vlakplaas members were present and they told me that they had to go and pick up weapons and they had to take these weapons to Tokoza in the East Rand and hand it over to the Zulus.  Because I was aware of sensitive connections with the Zulus, amongst others, with Themba Khoza and Vlakplaas.  I also had an IFP member that handled him who was a former Vlakplaas member and I do not recall specifically why he did not go with them, but they left there to go and pick up weapons and to take it to Tokoza in the East Rand to a hostel where they had to drop it off.  Afterwards I heard of the Boipatong massacre in the media and I never ... and I'm also stating it that those weapons were used, it's an inference that I drew.

MR WESSELS: You see Mr Barnard, this is the problem I have with your evidence, you mention an incident and create this impression that certain people were involved in it, for example, that Vlakplaas was involved in the Boipatong massacre on this basis, without having substantiated facts.  You are speculating.

FERDINAND BARNARD: If I am speculating, then I will say I'm speculating.  Like I've already put to you, if there are facts to substantiate it and if somebody told me something directly, I will put it like that.

MR WESSELS: I will put it to you that when you testified about Boipatong in the first place you did not make it very clear that you were speculating about it, like you are doing now.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That was intentionally.  I've got no problem in accepting it.

MR WESSELS: The criminal elements that you got to commit crimes, you say - was this before the elections in 1994?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it was.

MR WESSELS: And did they indeed commit crimes?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, they did.

MR WESSELS: Were you gave them specific instructions about things they had to do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it was broad instructions, they had to damage vehicles, where the people marched people had to be assaulted, they had to damage shop windows.  I gave a specific instructions that where possible they had to target whites, they had to highjack their vehicles and drive with these vehicles to the black townships.  We wanted to create a psychosis of fear which will then strengthen the Defence Force in that they can act on that.

MR WESSELS: And did this indeed work?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Well the instruction concerning the physical highjacking of people did not happen, but there were reports in the media and it was placed in front of the ANC and certain trade unions who held these marches, that the criminal element in the march had no political connection.  There were such reports in the newspapers, where shops damaged, people were injured, vehicles were damaged, etcetera.

MR WESSELS: You did not go back to these elements at a later stage to find out from them if they did execute these instructions?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I did, I gave them half of the money before and the other half at a later stage, or afterwards.

MR WESSELS: Yes they wanted to get paid?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it came from the government.

MR WESSELS: And specifically did they report to you, what did they do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Just what I just told you.  They damaged vehicles, they damaged shop windows, they assaulted people.

MR WESSELS: Can you just give us more details concerning this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I cannot.

MR WESSELS: Like a specific incident or incidents?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did not do research on what shop windows were kicked out, etcetera.

MR WESSELS: I'm not asking you if you did research, I'm asking you if you - what they told you, what A, B and C told you what they did?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I spoke to the leaders of the groups, they were the people with whom I liaised.  He said he sent people in, they kicked vehicles, as the march passed they kicked out shop windows as my instructions were put to him.  People who worked in Stratcom took that information, gave it to the media.  There was media coverage, television coverage, radio coverage, it was in the newspaper.  I saw it myself.

MR WESSELS: Was this a DCC instruction?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it was.

MR WESSELS: Why didn't you lead this evidence in your evidence-in-chief when you testified about the CCB and the DCC's involvement?