Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The car that they were travelling in had three different things.   I was still looking for a Transvaal registration and I did not get hold of it and the Sprinter 16 valve Toyota was still parked there.

DR TSOTSI: Did you see the soldiers from the Transkei as being your enemy?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I realised after they were dead, upon reading their cards that - or identification cards - that they were Transkei soldiers and by then they were dead.

MR LAX: So you killed them before you knew they were Transkei soldiers?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: My memory does not serve me correct, because I did not keep any records or diary to the effect that I will register every event.

MR LAX: Because in your affidavit you said they produced their identity cards and thereafter you took them to the chief's kraal?

INTERPRETER: Took them to which corner?

MR LAX: To the chief's kraal.

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, they were not taken to the chief's kraal.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you know any of these soldiers?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Sorry?

MR MATTHEWS: Did you personally know any of these soldiers?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I only knew one out of the rest.

MR MATTHEWS: Was this Mtemkulu?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just before the Transkei soldiers, before you saw them, did you stop a blue Toyota van with a white canopy?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it had something you called an Avalon in it.   What is an Avalon?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: This Avalon, from what I heard, it looks like MK, it's camouflage.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean a uniform, do you mean a garment, what are you talking about?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I'm talking about the Avalon that I realised in that van.

MR LAX: From listening to you, it sounds like you're talking about an overall?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: What I heard before was that that col..., those colours resemble that of MK colours.

MR LAX: Yes, colours on what, what are we talking about?   Is it a garment?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Please understand me well, I'm talking about Avalon with different colours, it's an Avalon.

MR LAX: You keep holding your jacket and trying to show us like a jacket?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Avalon that has belt across, like I've just demonstrated, or M'Lord this is just an Avalon.

MR LAX: Are you talking about webbing, what soldiers wear which they carry all their bullets in and their water bottles and their holsters?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: The man who had it in his car told - in his van - told you that he had bought it at the Roman Catholic Church at Ixopo?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's very true.

CHAIRPERSON: But you wanted to shoot them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Because I was not certain.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you're not certain, you'll kill someone, and if Mr Duma, the witchdoctor, had not stopped you, you would have killed them, is that the position?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I would have killed them.

MR LAX: And after these bodies were dumped, the motor vehicle was eventually set alight, is that correct?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the last part of your question?

MR LAX: The motor vehicle was eventually set alight?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: You mean the soldier vehicle?

MR LAX: Yes, the soldiers' vehicle.

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR LAX: How did you know what MK's equipment looked like?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: We were being told, we gathered this information from people, that certain colours will be resembling that of MK.

MR LAX: Certain colours would resemble that of MK.   So MK had a distinctive uniform, as far as you were aware?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Like the person I'd left alone, those were the colours, that's what we heard, that those are MK colours.

MR LAX: Well what colours were those?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I cannot identify the colour that looks exactly like that colour.

CHAIRPERSON: Now before the vehicle was burnt, had you used it to dump the bodies into the bush with the help of a Mr Kentaki?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you wash the vehicle and use it to go to Mbovini?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, then we took the vehicle to Mbovini.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you come back and get petrol from Mr Mkontwani?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's very true.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you then going to use the vehicle to go to Ixopo and kill the ANC leader, Mr Magobani?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I would have gone to kill Magobani.

CHAIRPERSON: But on the way did you see a convoy of Defence Force vehicles and did you stop at Dlamini's brother's yard?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, on the way we saw the soldiers, the convoy, ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: And did you then go to sleep?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I left the car in Dlamini's premises and fled to my relatives' place.

CHAIRPERSON: And the next morning did you see that the car had been burnt by a Mr Cheze?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I saw the car on fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this to avoid fingerprints if the police found it?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MATTHEWS: The next incident that you were also charged with and convicted by the supreme court was the murder of Anthony Mzmandi, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's true.

MR MATTHEWS: And for this murder you were sentenced to 15 years imprisonment?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's true.

MR MATTHEWS: Can you explain to the Committee why Mr Mzmandi was killed?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Nkosi Dlamini, Nkosi Mbhele, I'm sorry, arrived at Dlamini's house, he used to be our secretary in our organisation and when Nkosi arrived to tell us that there are people with KK in their possession, I asked as to where they were and they told us they are at Twasa's house.   I asked as to how many they were and he said they were many.   I left the house, I don't quite remember as to who I left in the house, at any rate I left with the person and so he could identify the place, and as I left, we came across Mgmalo's vehicle, he was coming from work.   I stopped him and I told him that Nkosi had just delivered this news and Mgmalo asked as to whether we trust this Mbhele, or I trust Mbhele.   I said to him there is nothing I can repudiate when I receive such news, and I don't think we should let go of such people, because they may be dangerous, and Mgmalo said we should go to his brother, another Mbhele that is.  We got into the car and we drove to the brother, and he was there with his two sons and we took them with and we drove now to that place and Mbhele knocked at the door and they could not open, or rather they did not open, and I knocked and I told them that it's me, Sosha, and please open the door, and the door was opened and I had a big torch with me and I went under the bed to check and I saw shoes and I could tell that there's a person hiding and I asked him to get out of that hiding place and he indeed got out of there to the open and I asked him if he knew any of the people I was with and he said no.   I instructed him to get into the car and I went back into the house now to inquire further from Twasa as to where were others.   As I was asking, I suddenly heard Mgmalo screaming and saying, "He's running away", and I got out of the house, and I got out and shot at him, and it was at night, I was using the torch at the same time, so I had in my possession a torch plus the firearm, and I shot at him and he died on the spot.   The most sad thing was that what Mbhele said to me, I did not prove it to be true, so that's what makes me feel this much remorse.

MR MATTHEWS: What did you find out was the true situation?