Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MR VISSER: Do you know of any such businessmen who were harassed, assaulted, whose houses were burnt, or whose motorcars were burnt?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in any of those activities?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Your question is broad.  If you could have asked me as to whether was it the community or ourselves  or meaning the Security Branch it will be clear.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you this question.  Are you able today to give this Committee the names of people whom you say were businessmen who supported the cause and who gave money to the comrades apart from Mr Nicos?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would explain it this way.  There were businessmen inside Bloemfontein whom had many shops or one shop.  If comrades heard - or maybe one comrade has died, the would go around the business centres looking for money and again to continue with their political activity.

MR VISSER: Okay, so that is what you are referring to.  Just, Mr Motsamai, as a Security policeman did you use a portable tape recorder to tape when you spoke to your informers or to make notes of your investigations, etc?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you have that tape recorder with you when you went to Pretoria to see Mr Wagner?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is, I hear it for the first time, no.

MR VISSER: You didn't, you didn't make a tape recording of what happened there that day?  I am just asking you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

MR VISSER: Were you at all influenced by any person when you made your application for amnesty, in any way, either to make the application or influenced on what to say in your application, by anybody at all?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There was no person who influenced me what to do or not what to do with my application form.

MR VISSER: Let me then ask you this, did you complete the form completely on your own or did you have assistance  of people to help you complete the form and your annexure?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I filled it myself.

MR VISSER: Second last question, I understand that you left the South African Police Services on Monday, this week.  Is that correct, last week?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Would you like to tell us why, you are a young man.  What happened?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Nothing happened.

MR VISSER: All right, I just want to put to you Mr Motsamai, that the people for whom I appear deny each and every allegation of your evidence which implicates them in any criminal or unlawful act.  They will come and tell the Committee that you had been lying to the Committee in so far as you implicated any or all of them in your evidence.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I am not lying what I said.  It is what I remember.  If those I forgot I would remember, I would make a new application in time to come.
	They know those incidents, they were together with me.  They know for themselves inside their hearts, they know very well.  Even when they sleep and wake up and pray, they pray but I don't know what they are praying for.  I don't know what they are praying for.  Even when they go to church, I don't know for what purpose with those kind of issues in their hearts.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mr Chairman, I believe that I am now at the end.  May I just please enquire from my Attorney whether he has anything else which I should cover?
	Yes, Mr Chairman, my Attorney has just drawn my attention to his notes in regard to the evidence that Mr Motsamai was involved with White Mohapi, but I believe with respect, Mr Chairman, that you've got the evidence before you and I believe that the rest is a question for argument especially if we have the record before us, the official typed record, there may be less possibility for confusion or contradiction, so I am not going to ask any further questions and go back to that issue.
	Thank you for the time you allowed me Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR VISSER: .

MR BRINK: I won't keep you Mr Motsamai, I just want to go back to this passage on the fifth floor of the building in Fountains Street.  You described the sign or sticker or board, could you be more specific in that regard?  For example was it similar to that sign at the end of the hall where it says exit, was it similar to that or how do you describe it?
	Was it a piece of wood on which the words Violent Street 
were written?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is a board.  There are these kind of boards which were with  crushed wood and there would be a smooth surface.

MR BRINK: And how was that board attached to the wall?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It seems it had something which had hooks or glue, then it was attached to the wall.

MR BRINK: And were the words Violent Street printed or were they, when I say printed, similar to the printing that you see on the word exit at the back of the hall, or was it handwritten?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were printed with paint.

MR BRINK: With paint?  Now it was put to you by Mr Visser that the evidence would be that these words Violent Street on this board, were to advertise a film.

MR VISSER: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt, but there is a slight difference here.  We didn't say that they were advertising the film in the building, we were saying that it was an advertisement, it was a promotion things, sticker, I was under the impression it was a sticker, advertising the run of the film Violent Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you put it to him that it was a sticker Mr Visser.

MR BRINK: In any event, I accept I wasn't exactly accurate there, I accept that.  But in any event was it the habit of the Security Branch to allow people to promote films in Bloemfontein or anywhere else?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, it is not like that.

MR BRINK: Yes, thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: You left the police last Monday or whenever, a week ago.  Is this sign still there, is it ...

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't think it is still there, because I left there many times.  A long time ago, before I left, the Security Branch were in a smaller branch, which was working only in Bloemfontein.  In other words it was - that Kompol building in Bloemfontein was the District office.

MR BRINK: .

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.  Now, Mr Motsamai, in his application Mr Ngo mentions you as having been present when certain people, 40 - 45 were tortured at Botshabelo police station, do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I remember that, sir.

ADV MEMANI: And under cross-examination you were asked whether that is correct or not and your answer was it is incorrect.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

ADV MEMANI: Now, why do you say it is incorrect?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I say it is incorrect because on that day there were many people who were present there who were students and
matured people.
	I believe he says I was there, many people who were responsible in assaulting or torturing those people, thinking that I was present amongst those people, but I was inside in Botshabelo.
	We were working with others who were inside and we were interrogating them and then assaulting them.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you on that day participate in the assault of people with the use of sjamboks who were made to run naked in a circle?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: To those who were naked, I was not present.  I was inside together with those who we were dealing with, interrogating them and assaulting those inside.  And those are the ones, if it goes on, I would put my application for amnesty in that regard, so that I should be amnetised.

ADV MEMANI: And you also said that you only fetched people from Botshabelo and you did not assault any people, do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I remember that, sir.