Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Well Vlakplaas was, there was four groups on Vlakplaas.   One mainly under Koos Vermeulen, Captain Koos Vermeulen worked Western Transvaal, from the farm as base near Kopfontein gate.   That was because Koos Vermeulen grew
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up in Botswana, he spoke Tswana fluently and all of the askaris and people that worked with him was people that were clued up with the Botswana set-up of the African National Congress.   Then there was another group under W/O Paul Van Dyk who was mainly Eastern Transvaal, because he worked Swaziland for quite few years, I think five years and mostly people, ANC cadres or askaris who infiltrated and knew the Swaziland set-up very well.   In the same way I operated in another region and there was a fourth group, so when talking about Koos Vermeulen was working from his base, when not needed as a whole party, as a whole Vlakplaas group in one specific area like for instance in November 1981 with the Mningi killings in Durban.

MR JANSEN: Is it correct to say that when you refer to Vermeulen and his Western Transvaal group, you're not referring to anything that structurally has something to do with Rudy Kraus' Western Transvaal branch or region?

ANSWER: Not structurally, he would communicate as a headquarters member from Vlakplaas closely with the local Security Branch in Zeerust.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

SISI KHAMPEPE: Captain you had a reconnaissance trip to the target house on that day?

ANSWER: Excuse me Mr Chairman?

SISI KHAMPEPE: On that day in question you had a reconnaissance trip to Mr and Mrs Dibali's house?

ANSWER: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So did Mr Joe Mamasela and Mr Nofomela.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you receive any report pertaining to the movements around the house?
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ANSWER: No, nothing at all that I can remember of, it was basically just to get clued up with the area and the exact location of the house during daytime.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you not get a report from Mr Mamasela about the movements at the targeted house?

ANSWER: It is possible that they could have said for instance that there was a bakkie parked, that the bakkie was parked outside or that someone entered the house, that is quite possible.   Nothing specific that I can remember Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You knew that you were dealing with a married couple, were you advised whether there were children?

ANSWER: No I was not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you know whether they were staying with elderly people?

ANSWER: No I was not advised.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you not think it reasonable on your part as the leader of the operation to take reasonable measures to ensure that only the identified targets, being Mr and Mrs Dibali, were attacked and no one else?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman it's very, very difficult to, and I'm not referring to anyone of the Chairpersons, with hindsight or with hindsight it is easy, but I can assure you Mr Chairman it's a nerve-wracking experience to go into another country with such an instruction, with the knowledge always in the back of your head that you might be caught or picked up by the local police or army, and as I say under the circumstances the first thing in your head is to get the operation over and get away.   There's actually no real time for going, sort of in a clean way, clean way selecting and so it is hastily hit and run operation.
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SISI KHAMPEPE: You stated that you blackened your faces, you and Mr Koos with some stage make-up, why did you do that?

ANSWER: That is not because of being in a black suburb we would have stood out like sore fingers as white persons, we did then black our faces with make-up, had balaclavas on to cover our ears and hair, long-sleeved shirts and our hands were also blackened.   We kept a low profile in the grass next to the corner house whilst Joe and Almond paraded up and down on the sidewalk.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Your intention was to execute this operation at night wasn't it?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Your intention was to carry out your instructions at night?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You still thought it more prudent to blacken your face?

ANSWER: That's correct because of street lights and, in the area of the house Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there any urgency in you having to carry out your instructions on that particular day, without having taken the reasonable caution in ensuring that only the identified targets would be dealt with by your members?

ANSWER: As I say Mr Chairman, it's very difficult to wait until a specific target is in the house alone because your information, as I could pick up through the relevant branches, would be always a few days or a week old so you would always operate, because there was not a fax or phone line open between your source and that branch, you would not know what was going on at that specific time of night, and just have to operate on week old evidence or of that kind,
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so very, very difficult, well impossible I would say to clinically select a specific target and to wait until he's there alone and then just take that specific target out.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you explain to us why Mr Jan Coetzee, is it Captain Coetzee?

ANSWER: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Formed part of the operation, what was the precise nature of his involvement in the whole operation?

ANSWER: He, Mr Chairman, Jan Coetzee although being with the Witwatersrand, West Rand excuse me, West Rand Security Branch handled Joe Mamasela who infiltrated Botswana, the ANC in Botswana.   As a result with that he had close ties with the, with the ANC's activities in Swaziland but the main handlers of that area was the Security Branch, Zeerust, Captain Rudy Kraus.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So what was his function apart from handling Mr Mamasela, why couldn't Mamasela be forwarded to Botswana without him accompanying him?

ANSWER: Can you just...

SISI KHAMPEPE: What was Captain Coetzee's function for purposes of that operation, you say he was "handling" Mr Mamasela, was there a need for him to accompany Mr Mamasela to Botswana to handle him?

ANSWER: Well it wasn't for me to decide Mr Chairman, as I say his involvement was as a result of Joe Mamasela's involvement and his infiltration with the ANC in Botswana and him as Jan Coetzee being his handler, bringing him with Joe Mamasela to link up with Rudy Kraus of Zeerust Security Branch and we of Section C, Headquarters Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee just one question.   You explained it's very difficult to identify whether it's Mr or Mrs
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Dibali so you instructed him kill the occupants in the house or shoot at everybody inside.   Was that in fact the policy when you raided a safe house or a house where ANC cadres were staying?

ANSWER: That was in fact the policy Mr Chair.

UNKNOWN: Well if that was the fact, why then in Jantjies case of this morning didn't they shoot all the occupants in the, what was his name?

ANSWER: Comrade A's house, I think it was because he was, I accept I mean I'm just speculating, it was because he was an open target in front of a window and could clearly be identified.   There was light in the house, he was sitting in a chair and therefore it was very easy in that case to shoot at a specific target which you could see and identify as I say.

UNKNOWN: And completely miss him?

ANSWER: I don't know whether he was missed or not, I believe he was hit in fact as far as I know, or what I picked up preparing for this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the report that you received from these people at the end of the day?

ANSWER: From the?

CHAIRPERSON: What was the report that you received from Nofomela at the end of the day?