Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

MR BLACK: This appears to have been dated the 21st of July 1986, and it was attested to before a Peter Andries Dreyer.  Is this the same person that you referred to as Col Dreyer and who was at the scene and had to convey the bodies?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: So he also knew that - or let's put it this way.  He was also aware - well, I think you have answered that question already. That he was aware of the fact that a watered-down version would be presented.  Now was Brig ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, sorry, just before you leave that point.  I don't know whether or not, I have certainly not determined that yet, but I mean I don't know whether Mr Swarts is telling the truth or not telling the truth in his affidavit which was attested to by Mr Dreyer, but on the assumption that Mr Dreyer - Mr Swarts is not telling the truth, Mr Dreyer - Mr Dreyer, if he had read this affidavit at the time when he attested, would have known that Mr Swarts was not telling the truth.

A J G ERWEE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Well, let's put it this way; even if the contents might be accurate, it was - he knew it was part of a scheme or plan to present a watered-down version of evidence to the inquest inquiry.  Would you agree?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Because while we are busy with Mr Dreyer, what - I also just wish to clear up with you and for the record purposes, the vehicle which conveyed the wounded person to Alldays, he was placed, I assume at the back of the bakkie, full of blood. Is that correct?

A J G ERWEE: No, Chairperson, that is not correct.  I would like to repeat, I instructed Dreyer when I came to the vehicle, and realised that people might be dead here,  immediately sent Dreyer to Alldays to report our commanders.  I then chased away the staff from the vehicle because smoke was coming out of the vehicle, and there was the possibility of an explosion. Then somebody came to me, Swarts came to me and said there is some person is still alive. I then took him away, 20, 30 metres, when he lost consciousness, I instructed somebody to take him to Alldays.  I don't know exactly whom I instructed. Later on I learnt that it was Theuns Gerber.  He was then put on an open bakkie.  There were bodies on the bakkie and he was transported with them.

MR BLACK: He was transported presumably by warrant-Officer Gerber and he was put on the back of this bakkie together with his dead fellow MK people, which must have been ... (intervention).

A J G ERWEE: With some of his comrades?

MR BLACK: Yes.

A J G ERWEE: Not all of them.

MR BLACK: They were all, I presume, from looking at the inquest report, very much full of wounds and blood and holes, bullet holes?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BLACK: The SADF medic wasn't sent with on the back of that bakkie to take care of him?

A J G ERWEE: No, Chairperson, he wasn't.

MR BLACK: Sorry, I did, I think I did ask you, but just to make sure.  Do you know whether or not Col Van Dyk gave the information and records which he had made of the scene, to either Brig Coetsee or to Col Van der Merwe?  Did he?

ADV DE JAGER: I appreciate your questions, but I believe Van Dyk is coming to give evidence and Coetsee and Van der Merwe gave evidence. They would have known whether Van Dyk gave the things to them.  He is not the person handling the things. You are asking what Van Dyk was doing and you had the opportunity to asking Van der Merwe and Coetsee whether they gave it to him. I think you in fact asked him and nothing came forward.

MR BLACK: The only reason why I am putting it to Mr Erwee at this stage, is because he was the officer in command and I assumed that he would at the end ensure that any information or that ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: The overall officer in command was Mr Van der Merwe, and second in command was Coetsee about this operation.  He was in command at the scene.

MR BLACK: Yes. If it can perhaps wait for Mr Van Dyk, if he is called to clarify that issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Van Dyk - you might have been asked that question.  Did Van Dyk submit any report to you, in terms of your instructions to him, that he should take notes, et cetera, et cetera?

A J G ERWEE: That's correct, he collected all the details and particulars and we handed it in at Pietersburg the next day.  I assume, without remembering exactly, he handed it over to Brig Coetsee because he had helped to write the previous reports, because it wouldn't have been my task or Van Dyk's task.  We were attached to different sections.  We only came to help Coetsee and Van den Berg during this operation.  We had other tasks within the framework of the security police.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Erwee, I don't know if you can help me in this, with this, but the three persons who were identified at the inquest, their families were in fact notified, some are in Diepkloof and some are in Atteridgeville.  Are you aware of the fact that they were notified or did you play any role there?  That they had, in order to attend and they did attend, to identify the bodies.  Let's put it that way.

A J G ERWEE: What I do know is that Col Piet Dreyer, the branch commander of Louis Trichardt, he would have dealt with the inquest and to notify the families of the inquest. I only heard later that some of the family members of the deceased had been traced and had been notified accordingly. I did not deal with the inquest personally.

MR BLACK: Then perhaps these questions would be more apposite to put this to Col Dreyer, if he testifies. There are certain issues which I need to clarify on behalf of the family.  I have no further questions at this stage. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

ADV DE JAGER: According to your statement, identity documents were found on the bodies of five of these people and you took down their identity numbers and their full names.

A J G ERWEE: Correct, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: You don't know whether those identity documents were connected with particular corpses and which corpse had which name?

A J G ERWEE: I just assumed that the identity documents were found on each particular body, but whether it was their true ID books or not, I wouldn't be able to say.  If I understand your question correctly.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but if there were five identity documents found, containing ID numbers on five of these bodies, one of the bodies did not have an identity book?

A J G ERWEE: Correct, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Apart from the identity documents, three could be connected by means of fingerprints.

A J G ERWEE: That is how I understood it, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Now if these identity documents were found, if five identity documents were found, isn't there a fingerprint in the - thumb print in the ID book?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: Now could that be compared with fingerprints of the deceased to perhaps ascertain their identity, or do you know whether that was done?

A J G ERWEE: I don't know whether it was done or not. I believe that it would have been done, yes, by Snr Supt Swarts and Col Dreyer.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Erwee, at what stage of the interrogation was an injection administered to the injured cadre by one of the medical orderlies from the SADF?

A J G ERWEE: If I remember correctly, it was at the stage that I noticed that the person had lost consciousness, and that further questioning would serve no purpose, and that I wouldn't extract anything from him.  It was then that I asked them to inject him to try and stabilise him so that he could be conveyed to Alldays, the 50-kilometre journey more or less.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You have testified that this interrogation lasted for approximately 10 minutes?