Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe I see that the legal representativesare writing on their laps, there is no table available.  Mr Currenis trying to make notes and he's doing it on his lap.  I reallythink that this is not the way in which we should proceed withthis trial.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee a commenthas already been made by an honourable members of the Committeeabout this venue.  Mr Chairman if I have to make a table availablefor everybody it means this table will go right down towards thedoor and that is what I was trying to avoid.  Mr Chairman I havearranged this with the legal representatives that when it comesto cross-examination they will take the table.  But if it is thefeeling of the Committee I will ask that we adjourn for a whileand then I can fit in other tables, for all lawyers to be on tables.

CHAIRPERSON: It does seem that this hall has its limitations
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and it may be a bit awkward and difficult for attorneys and counselin this matter here.  Unfortunately we will all just have to dothe best we can.  We have heard that there are limitations andI don't think that Mr Mpshe himself can do very much.  Maybe hewould be able to push a wall or two but I don't think he can domuch more than that.  So let's just see how far we can go in thedifficult circumstances in which we find ourselves.  So pleasebear with us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr du Plessis we have prepared guidelineswhich govern proceedings, the way that this Committee runs itsproceedings, I don't know whether you have had a copy thereof?

UNKNOWN: I have a copy yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: One of the provisions is that any partywanting to make use of documents will ensure that all other interestedparties receive all copies of such documents as that particularparty wants to use, and I think it may be useful to try and keepto that.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Mr Chairman I wasn't under the impressionthat that provision included copies of the applications to everyinterested party.  Nobody approached us yesterday except one legalrepresentative approached us yesterday for copies of the applications. I am just trying to locate my copy of the guidelines.  So ifthere are requests for copies of the applications then obviouslywe will endeavour to do so.  We haven't had any requests for copies.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am talking about documents which havebeen - we are now at Exhibit D aren't we?

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So there have been some documents, I amnot
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talking about the application.

UNKNOWN: Oh I beg your pardon.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am talking about the documents.

UNKNOWN: I thought you were referring to the applications.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No.  The guidelines do not refer themselvesto copies of them.

UNKNOWN: Yes I will gladly make available copiesof any documents to anybody who is interested and want extra copies. I have got extra copies of documents available, of the exhibits. So anybody, Mr Curren if you want copies of any of the exhibitsplease just ask me.  Mr Chairman I beg your pardon I think everybodyin that row wanted copies and one obviously doesn't know how manypeople want copies.  I have got one or two extra copies of theseexhibits.  If people want copies of the exhibits there are extracopies available.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr du Plessis is it possible to make availablesufficient copies.  These are representatives who would like tohave such copies if you know how many such legal representativesare who want such copies?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And to have these copies available immediatelyafter lunch, if it  would be to your convenience.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Mr Chairman I must say that thesedocuments were handed up yesterday and if anybody asked me yesterdayfor copies I would have gladly made the copies last night.  Ifany legal representatives want copies of any documents handedin today or documents handed in yesterday please feel free toapproach me then I know how many copies 1A I/...
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I must have available and then I will have copies available foreverybody who wants copies.  If you approach me and say to methat you want a copy of every document every time I hand in adocument please tell me then I will make available such documents.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman for the sake of the smooth runningof the proceedings may I apply that we be granted a short adjournmentfor myself and Mr ...(indistinct) to identify who wants what,make extra copies and keep them here, otherwise Mr Chairman weare going to have instances where people will be standing up askingfor this and this interrupting the proceedings.  Can we be affordedsome short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well we will take a short adjournmentto enable you to smooth things out.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...put on record as well as the incidents theyare representing.  This has been arranged with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, not only the incidents but more particularlythe clients they represent, isn't it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman, they will be able todo that.

MS MOLEMA: My name is Kitibona Molema.  I am representingthe Robeiro family and relevant matters to them.

MR CURREN: Mr Chairman my name is Brian Curren from thefirm Bell, Dewar and Hall.  Together with Mr van den Berg whois sitting next to me and four other attorneys we are representing,and I'm not going to give you all the names because I don't haveall the names in front of me at the moment, we didn't expect thatwe would be asked to give all the names.  I am going to give theincidents and we are acting for all the people involved in thoseincidents.  We have a number of written instructions already butwe are trying to get in touch with some of the people who haven'tyet apparently been informed and haven't arrived yet.  But thematters in which we are representing clients are the Zero handgrenadeincident, the families relating to that incident.  The Duduzamatter which is the Nietverdiend matter.  Oh the Duduza is theZero handgrenade.  And then behalf of Makupe Maka and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just please pause, I think you have told meit was Nietverdiend is that not so?

MR CURREN: Yes, Nietverdiend.

CHAIRPERSON: And so first of all you've got the Zero handgrenadematter, then the Nietverdiend.

MR CURREN: Yes.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
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CHAIRPERSON: And then?

MR CURREN: And then on behalf of the families of Mkupa,Maka and Sofola, as well as the families of the Kwandebele 9. The two people who are described as policemen and wife from Hammanskraalwhich is Richard and Irene Mutasi.  And finally Scheepers Marudi.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not able to give us the names of thelegal representatives who are with you?

MR CURREN: Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are they?

MR CURREN: Clinton McAslin.  Gregory Nott.  Mpuleng Pooe.Jane Evans.  That is the team that will be representing that groupof people.  We are coordinating as a team, some people are notgoing to be here all the time they are going to be a lot of doingthe taking of statements and preparation and research work.  Thankyou.

MS MOLEMA: If I may add something also, I am appearingtogether with Mr Cyril Marolo in this matter.

MR MAROLO: My name is Cyril Marolo from C O Marolo andPartners.  We are appearing for the Robeiro double murder andI am appearing with my partner Kitibone Molema who has alreadysubmitted her name.  I also wish to mention that Brian Currenwill also be assisting again in this matter of Robeiro.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you mainly the Robeiro matter Mr Marolo?

MR MAROLO: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Thank you.  I am Mpumelelo Nyoka.  I am practisingon my own from Port Elizabeth.
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DE HARTEL: I represent the firm Heggie Hartel andAssociates of Port Elizabeth.  I represent Mrs Numpelelo BenedictaGudeloze in relation to the Pepco 3 matter.
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MR MEINTJIES: /...
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