Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MR HATTINGH: Was it during your first meeting with Mr Javu Mkhwanazi that he gave you your open-ended instruction to stabilise the area?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I didn't meet Javu Mkhwanazi at Secunda, I met him in Nelspruit.

MR HATTINGH: Was it when you first met him that he gave you that instruction, or was it only later on?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He trained me.   After he had trained me, he told me what my job was.   That was the first time that I had come across with him.

MR HATTINGH: When he gave you that instruction, was that still in 1990?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, it was in 1990.

MR HATTINGH: When Mr Javu Mkhwanazi gave you that instruction, did he tell you in so many words, "Go and kill Jwi Zwane"?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He told me about the Black Cats who were intimidating people in Ermelo.   It was my job to find out who the leaders of the Black Cats were.   The instruction was that the Black Cats were being problematic, especially the leaders.   According to my knowledge, Zwane was the leader of the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Javu Mkhwanazi did not mention the name of Jwi Zwane to you as a person to be killed, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He did.

MR HATTINGH: What did he say to you about Jwi Zwane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He told me that he was the leader of the Black Cats and that he was problematic, together with Chris Ngwenya.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mr Mkhwanazi then tell you, "Go and kill Jwi Zwane"?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And at the same time did he tell you you could go and kill Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he mention Chris's name?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chair, if I'm told to fight against the leaders of the Black Cats ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Would you, I'm asking you a simple question, did he mention Chris's name when he gave you the instruction to kill?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, Chair, but Chris was part of the Black Cats.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that, that's why I'm going to give you another warning, listen to the question nicely, answer the question, because at the end of the day, that advocate is going to argue that you are not telling the truth, because of things like this.   Understand?    So listen to his questions and answer properly.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, I would like to clarify it now.   Some time during 1990 you received a single open-ended instruction from Mr Javu Mkhwanazi, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: When - at the time you received this instruction, did Mr Mkhwanazi tell you to kill people and gave you the names of the people you were to kill?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't know how to answer this question, because, as I have said, under those circumstances, every member of the Black Cat, or the instruction was open to fight against every member of the Black Cat.   I did not see the need to go and get an instruction to kill Chris and then come back, go and get an instruction to kill another person.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you you must kill Zwane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.   He said, what he said was that I should sort out the chaos in Ermelo.   I had to kill Jwi Zwane, it was obvious that I should kill Ngwenya if I had killed Zwane.   It means, the instruction was such that I had to kill members of the Black Cat.

MR HATTINGH: I'm asking what was said to you, was Zwane's name mentioned, yes or no?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The name that came through to sort out, or Jwi Zwane's name was mentioned.

MR HATTINGH: Was there any other name mentioned?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, Chair.

MR HATTINGH: So all the other crimes that you committed was in furtherance of your general mandate, is that correct, to sort out the area?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was following that same command, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to get further clarity on this.   Mr Gushu, what would happen to a member of the Black Cats whose name had not been mentioned to you, according to this conversation you had with Mkhwanazi, what was the position with such people who were members of the Black Cats but their names had not been mentioned to you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chair, as the instruction that I was given was open, I'm sure that there are people here who are going to testify as applicants that they had been instructed by myself to kill members of Black Cat.   The instruction was such that I should sort out the situation in the area as people were dying daily.   Anybody who was an obstacle, I had to remove.   That is all under the same instruction, I could not separate certain issues like I have to do here now.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that such people would have to be killed as well, yes or no?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, all those people who were part in killing the ANC people.

CHAIRPERSON: And those people were Black Cats, according to your evidence?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, Chair.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you.   Were you aware that during July 1990, that there was a special Committee made up of John Mndebele, Nicolaas Zwane, Javu Mkhwanazi and Psiphoselaas Nkonyane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't know about that.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know, or did you know at the time, Psiphoselaas Nkonyane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I knew all those people that you've mentioned, I knew them as comrades.

MR HATTINGH: Did you meet regularly with them?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would meet them in the streets.

MR HATTINGH: Mr John Mndebele?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The same.

MR HATTINGH: Did he know you very well?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would not be able to say that he knew me well at that time, but I know now that he knows me.

MR HATTINGH: Just approximately, on how many occasions did you meet with Mr John Mndebele prior to your arrest in July 1992?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't remember that I met him and we spoke, I would just see him in the streets.   Maybe I'd go to his shop and I would meet him.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know where his shop was?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I knew.

MR HATTINGH: Did you on many occasions see him in his shop?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would go to the shop to buy, not to John, to go to John.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see him at the shop?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Sometimes I would see him, but not all the time.

MR BLACK: Can I object to this line of questioning on the basis of relevance, Mr Chairman?   Mr Mndebele has testified he knew who Mr Gushu was, he never gave Mr Gushu any instructions with regard to any violent activities, and that was never disputed.   As it pleases the Chair.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, Mr Mndebele in fact testified that he once saw or met the applicant in the street, and that's the only contact that he had with this applicant, but you ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: So?

MR HATTINGH: ...but you will remember the circumstances under which the incident of Jwi Zwane took place at the shop of Mr Mndebele and why this applicant actually went for Zwane and killed him, because he believed that the life of Mr Mndebele was at stake.   Did he not ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that point getting?

MR HATTINGH: It's getting us towards the point that once again the allegation that the act was committed with a political motive becomes a bit hazed and that perhaps there was another reason why this applicant on that day suddenly decided well it's time to kill Zwane because he is perhaps a threat to Mr Mndebele.

CHAIRPERSON: I will allow further questioning, but I don't follow the reasoning behind it and I'm going to have to stop you if necessary.   Carry on.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Did you ever speak to Mr Mndebele?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever receive instructions from Mr Mndebele in any way?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't remember a single time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mndebele never alleged that, did he?   Did Mr Mndebele say that he gave him instructions?

MR HATTINGH: No, he didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why the question?   Neither this witness, nor Mr Mndebele made that allegation, so what gives rises to the question?