Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DU TOIT: Did he tell you where he had called to give the report on the MK people in his house?

ANTON PRETORIUS: It's possible that he might have told me but I really don't remember. I've been trying to remember since the hearing started, this session started but I really can't remember.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, Doctor Randera?  Ms Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Madame Chair. I will just check one or two questions. Is it possible that Mrs Madikizela Mandela will fall under what you refer to as a high - you said you worked at a higher level and you referred to MK cadres as one area which you were interested in. Is it possible that you were interested in them and ignore her completely in your investigations?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I'm not hundred percent sure about the questions. But I knew who Mrs Mandela was and more or less about her MK connections to Lusaka, that is what I knew. I don't know if that answered your question.

MS MKHIZE: Since we've been sitting here for the past two days and also last year, there was reference to her as a person who was very, very important and who couldn't be ignored in terms of surveilling what was happening in Soweto, but the vagueness in locating her in your monitoring it gives cause for concern because it doesn't match the picture which has been created.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Mrs Mandela, we would probably have wanted to monitor her for twenty four hours a day but the testimony so far was that it was just impossible as the testimonies have said. The only surveillance that we were quite sure was the telephone tapping.
 I don't know when exactly she got to Soweto but if I remember correctly it was about 1986. But since '86 until I left Soweto, over a long period of time, those four or five years, information was received from Mrs Mandela's activities to give at the end of the day a global picture of her links with MK in the overseas and with the late Mr Chris Hani.
 I'm not quite sure of the question, what the question was. Have you got another question that I might try to answer better?

MS MKHIZE: Well, I will accept your response and I should think you heard the question. Can I just ask you one more question which refers to the creation of profiles. What will actually go into a person's profile? If you were working on a person's profile, what kind of information will be considered as critical about that person?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I'll mention two kinds of profiles. I think she refers to Trewits profiles but both of them are the same. First a photo of the person, the name, the ID number, all the various names that this person uses, all the different addresses where such a person lives, contacts of the person, telephone numbers used by him, vehicles used by him and so forth.
 `This is what goes into both the Security Branch's profiles as well as - and then there was additionally a memorandum which had to be kept up to date with regard to a specific suspect. In other words if a suspect should for instance attend an ANC meeting at Regina Mundi, we would record that. If such a person went to Brandfort we would record those details if it were of security interest. That's the best answer I can give.

MS MKHIZE: Just one last question from me. Is it possible that in your activities you reached a point where human life wasn't really important, what became important was to protect the state? The reason why I'm saying that is because you were asked whether knowledge about the abduction of Lolo Sono and Sibusizwe Tshabalala came to your knowledge and your response was: "It is possible."
 Given the seriousness of or the seriousness of that kind of information one wouldn't expect a response which will say: "It is possible." It creates an impression that even if you had privilege to that information you just acted either negligently or it wasn't important for you at the time.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission I trust that I didn't create the impression with those people that I had a negligent attitude. I think it would be the wrong impression because I wouldn't say this is my style but I hope this wasn't the impression I created. What I'm trying to say, and I think it is so that when the Stompie case or any of the other cases that served before the Commission and it became known, it was impossible for any policeman or security person in the force to give attention to that.
I knew like I've already told you there were competent people whom I believe have handled the matter, whose line function it was, who would take responsibility for that. If I could make a positive contribution as was the case with the pair of scissors at the Mandela household, I showed it. If I had something I would have showed it. 
 However I cannot be held responsible for an investigating officer or another person who didn't handle that and I didn't have that much time because I realised that we as security people were quite often asked why we didn't do follow up work. We had a revolutionary struggle, we had a lot of work. In the mean time we had bombs in the Wimpy's going off at Ellis Park and so forth as well, which we had to investigate as well. What I'm trying therefore to say is that I was not aloof and I didn't close my eyes saying that things must just go. If I had something I certainly would have given it.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Pretorius, I just summarised one of the things you said into a ...[indistinct}.  A ...[indistinct] is just when synthesise, you don't follow the words which have been said by a person, you give just the sense.  You said some time that if you just act anyhow, in dealing with Mrs Madikizela Mandela, that would have been the end of your career, do you remember saying that?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission. could you please repeat the question? I'm going to listen in English because I think the interpreting didn't come through correctly. Unfortunately I couldn't get the question either.

MR NTSEBEZA: I heard you saying that when if he was dealing with Mrs Mandela he had to be very careful, and you say that if you dealt with Mrs Mandela anyhow that would be the end of your career. Did you say that?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I cannot recall exactly what I said but I think the intention was that if I had the idea that I could approach Mrs Mandela in a very light-headed way almost - I am trying to tell you that when I was involved in the Security Branch whatever one did against Winnie Mandela one had to be very careful. and you had to make dead sure about your facts.
 In other words if one had to go to Mrs Mandela's house I wouldn't have done so without a warrant and even that could lead to a departure from the police force and it could have a ripple effect because international pressure could be exerted on South Africa. In other words I knew - nobody told me that, everybody knew that when one went to Mrs Mandela or did whatever you had to do it with circumspection and one had to make dead sure of your facts. I don't know whether this is a reply to your question.

YASMINE SOOKA: I think Mr Makanjee asked you about the raid that you went on and the role that you played and you actually told the Commission that you were sitting - you were actually there in two roles, you were there as an explosives expert and you were there in your capacity as head of Intelligence, is that correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you tell me who else went on that raid please?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Which I can remember, he is also a Colonel Stone Steenberg, I think at that stage he was my second in command and he was also an explosive expert that accompanied me. I'm also aware of Mr Potgieter, who was there from the Security Branch. The others I'm going to have to guess about I'm not that sure, I'm going to have to guess if I were to tell you who the others were.