Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MR VAN WYK: I think I can make my copy available Mr Chairman.  There's a copy thereof, can you have a look at that document please.  If you look at the first document it will be marked page 261 on the right hand top and I want to ask you to ignore the yellow highlighting on the page because it was in respect of another weapon.  Do you see that you've signed there for a arm, firearm?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I see that.

MR VAN WYK: When did you return that firearm?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think I returned that firearm after the situation was normal.

MR VAN WYK: Was that on the same day?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Later  on the same day.

MR VAN WYK: Did you return it yourself?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: To whom?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I'm not quite sure who was collecting those, who was in charge to collect the firearms which were used on the 28th but I remember there was instructions that everybody who was issued out with an ANC firearm should return it back and I did that.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know Mr Jardine?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Mr who?

MR VAN WYK: It looks like P. Jardine, that's what it looks like to me.  Do you know such a person?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I don't know such a person, Mr Jardine.

MR VAN WYK: You did not give your firearm to such a person?

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't know the name of the person to whom he gave it.

MR VAN WYK: Do you confirm that if you look at the page 261, the arm that was issued to you was numbered 64100.  Do you agree with that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I agree with that.

MR VAN WYK: Now if you have a look at the next page that you've got there with you, page 262, do you see on that page whether the arm was returned or not?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: What is the question here to page 262?

MR VAN WYK: On the next page that is available to you, it was - I think what I should do, I'm going to give you these two big pages that I've got here they're copies of the book how it actually was.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you just say, you've got it before you ... (intervention)

MR VAN WYK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you think that he didn't return the firearm, put it to him that you didn't return it.  If it is something else then put the question to him.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: I want to show another page of the book to you and I want to put it to you that you did not return that firearm but the records at Shell House indicates that it appears it was a Mr P. Jardine that returned this firearm and I want your comments on that.  Can I just show you the documents?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Van Wyk, do we have these pages before us because I can't see anything of the sort?

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman I see only the first page copies were made, that appears to be the second page of the records, no copies has been made yet, but I undertake I will make copies tonight and I will supply it to you by tomorrow.

MR LAX: Thanks we'd be grateful for that.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you.  Do you see on the second page it appears that that same arms, 64100, was returned by somebody else and not you.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes it might have been returned by somebody else and not me.

MR VAN WYK: But how is that possible because you said you returned it yourself?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I don't know, I cannot answer for that maybe it's just one of the irregularities which happened there.

MR VAN WYK: With how much ammunition were you issued on that day?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I'm not sure but I think I had a box of bullets, this small boxes.

MR VAN WYK: A box of bullets, how many rounds?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Unfortunately I don't know how many rounds are there.

MR VAN WYK: According to those records it appears that 50
rounds was issued to you.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: 50 Rounds?  I don't know I ... (intervention)

MR VAN WYK: And there's no record as to how many rounds you returned.  Do you agree with that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Is there any specific reason why it wasn't documented as to how many rounds you fired that day?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No there's no specific reason.

MR VAN WYK: I want to put it to you that on behalf of the objectors that I appear that there was no attack on Shell House that day and that your shooting was unjustified.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN WYK

MR LAX: Are you going to respond, you look like you not going to comment?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I don't have a comment or (indistinct)

MR DORFLING: Mr Mangena would you please turn to page 128 of your application and read pages 17 to 20, I'm sorry, paragraph 17 to 20 at this page, page 128.  That's the typed application page 4.  Have you got that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Paragraph?

MR DORFLING: Paragraphs 17 to 20.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Would you like to read it sir because I want to ask you certain questions pertaining to those paragraphs?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Should I read it?

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to read it into the record, you can switch your machine off but just read it to just refresh your memory.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Okay sir.

MR DORFLING: Do you agree with me they do not indicate whether you saw any of your colleagues of the security guards that was deployed with you, having fired any shots.  Do you agree?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry can I just repeat that, do I agree with what?

MR DORFLING: They do not disclose the identity of any of the security guards who were deployed with you as having fired any shots.  Do you agree with that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now do you know whether any of the security guards that were deployed with you, do you know of the identity of any such guard or guards that fired shots on the day?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I don't know of any except for the one I've already said.  The person I saw shooting it was Mr Khumalo.

MR DORFLING: Is that Mr Eddie Khumalo?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Can you describe exactly where and when you saw him firing?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I cannot quite remember where was he when he was firing because I cannot be sure as to where was he at that particular time.

MR DORFLING: Can you be of some assistance, was he more towards the De Villiers Street side of King George Street or more towards the Plein Street side.  We know that you were positioned somewhere up the block towards De Villiers Street, was he more towards Plein Street or more towards De Villiers Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think he was more towards De Villiers Street.

MR DORFLING: Do I understand that to mean that he was ahead of you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now you already testified that you were at a pair of pillars.  Did you testify, I'm not sure that I had your evidence correctly, is it the second or the third pair of pillars?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: It's the second pair.

MR DORFLING: And just so that there could be no misunderstanding, so Mr Khumalo was further north up King George Street towards the De Villiers Street side of the block.  Is that right?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: And when you saw him firing shots, was he in that position?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Come again?

MR DORFLING: When you saw him firing shots was he in that position, in other words further up north King George Street from where you were?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think he was in that position.

MR DORFLING: Did you actually see him firing shots sir?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Was he firing on automatic fire or on single shot fire?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I'm not sure whether he was firing on automatic or single.

MR DORFLING: You see sir the reason I'm asking this, on the evidence of Mr Khumalo he was positioned at the corners of Plein and King George Street or in that immediate proximity at the time when he fired ... (inaudible - end of tape)