Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

SOUND TECHNICIAN: ...(indistinct) there are too many people in the audience for us to furnish them all with receivers.  If it's bothering you, then I must turn it down.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll keep up with it, we just thought it was strange, we are not used to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Thabethe, you may proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  Mr Zulu, in your evidence you have stated that your intention, when you committed the act on the 2nd of March 1993, was to attack Makeke.  My question to you, why did you want to attack Makeke?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We wanted to attack Makeke because he was the person who was attacking us, killing us.  He was the person who was brave.

MS THABETHE: Where was he killing you?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: He was killing ANC members.

MS THABETHE: Where were members of the ANC?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: ANC members from Maqonqo.

MS THABETHE: Now my next question to you is, my instructions are that Makeke did not own a cream-white van.  He had other cars, but not a cream-white van.  What is your response to that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, he didn't own a cream-white bakkie, but he was driving another cream-white bakkie, not the one that was his own.

CHAIRPERSON: He was driving, but not owning, a cream-white bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity would he drive something like a cream-white bakkie which he didn't own?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: He was driving it because the owner was also an IFP member or they belonged in one organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was not his car?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, it wasn't his car.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we knew that.

MR MALAN: Sorry did you - was your answer to Ms Thabethe's question that he was also driving a cream-white bakkie, another one?  You said he was driving one.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is that another cream-white bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, there was a cream-white bakkie which didn't belong to him and he owned a white bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: But the way I understand your evidence is to the effect that the cream-white bakkie that you knew him to be driving, you knew that it wasn't his own bakkie, that it belonged to somebody else who worked with him.  This cream-white bakkie would be driven by him from time to time on loan from this friend of his.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle that you shot at, who was the owner of that vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I don't know the owner because they just came to the area, or they just moved to the area.

ADV DE JAGER: You wouldn't know whether it belonged to Mr Mhlembe?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I wouldn't know.

ADV DE JAGER: And wasn't this vehicle driven by Mr Tulane Zimu?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Who used to drive the vehicle that you shot at?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Makeke and the owner.

ADV DE JAGER: And the owner was who?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: The owner is the one that I said I don't know his name because he just moved to the area.

ADV DE JAGER: And this Mr Makeke, you don't know his full names, or more names of him?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I only know him as Makeke.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just clear something with you?  You have just given evidence that Makeke did not own a cream-white bakkie, that that one was owned by a person that he worked with who had just moved into your area and whose name therefore you do not know but that Makeke did own a white bakkie.  Did I hear you properly when you said that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew him to be owning a white bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the bakkie that attacked the members of the ANC in your area on the 26th of February, what colour was it?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was a cream-white bakkie with a white canopy.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it then associated with Makeke, when you knew quite well that Makeke owned a white bakkie and not a cream-white bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It is because we used to see Makeke driving the very same bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm aware that he used to drive that bakkie, but why did you associate the presence of the car on that attack of the 26th of February with Makeke, because even though he used to drive the car, it wasn't his car, it was owned by somebody else and those facts were facts which were within your personal knowledge.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We attacked because we saw him bringing people and we also heard that he was driving that car.

CHAIRPERSON: So you heard that on the day of the attack, when the cream-white bakkie was seen, it was seen being driven by Makeke?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Tula Cele Gcabashe.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not personally see Makeke driving the car on the 26th of February?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: When they attacked I didn't see Makeke driving it, but I used to see Makeke driving it on other days.

MS THABETHE: You may proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr Zulu, is the car that Makeke drove, that you saw him driving, the same one you attacked on the 2nd of March?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, it is the same one.

MS THABETHE: What type of a car was it?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I don't remember very well whether it was a Toyota or something else.

MS THABETHE: There was a cream-white van, a Toyota Hilux which used to transport children, school children every day in the morning.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we didn't know the fact that that car was transporting children or school children.

MS THABETHE: My instructions are that you knew very well that there was a car that transported school children every day in the morning.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: That is a very big mistake.  We didn't know that and if we knew this information, we were not going to attack children.

CHAIRPERSON: How would he have known that Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: You see, Mr Zulu, in your affidavit you've indicated that you did see a vehicle which regularly gathered people, actually you say the vehicle was regularly seen in the area and the gathering whatever.  I don't understand this sentence, but I understand it to be saying that you decided that the said vehicle must be ambushed because you saw it gathering people in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: The vehicle was regularly seen in the area, but he has not been specific as to who saw it.

MS THABETHE: Maybe I should rephrase my question.  The vehicle that was regularly seen in the area, did you see it?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I saw the car because I knew it.

MS THABETHE: And yet you did not see the car that used to transport school children everyday.  Is that your evidence?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I've never seen the one that carries children, or that it was transporting children.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just take issue with what you are saying?
Your evidence is that Mr Makeke, who was your main target, owned a white bakkie and your viva voce evidence is to the effect that the car that was seen on the 26th of February was a cream-white bakkie and it had been seen on the scene of the ANC members attack on the 26th of February and that was why you decided to attack the cream-white bakkie.  In your affidavit however, that's on page 4, paragraph 6.12, you unequivocally state that you amongst others, you amongst others, identified a white bakkie with a canopy that was seen transporting members of the IFP during the attack of the 26th of February 1993.  Now, it wasn't a cream-white bakkie that was identified as a target for attack, it was a white bakkie.  Why did you then attack a cream-white bakkie, when you had identified a white bakkie?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: When you go on an attack usually you go by one, two or three cars and you drop those people, the attackers.