Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

JERRY RICHARDSON: I took an oath that I will speak the truth.  I do believe that you can make a mistake even if you are under oath, but it is within that vicinity that I pointed out.  Maybe if the TRC could stretch the area, maybe we could get some bodies.

MR RICHARD: Now, you spoke  about a map.  Who drew this map?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember who drew the map between Guybon and myself.

MR RICHARD: Okay, now we have dealt with the events starting on the 9th of November and continuing into December.  Now, the next fixed point that we have, is the discovery of Kuki Zwane's body on the 18th of December 1988.  I mention that because according to page 20 of what has been described as an investigation diary, it is not technically an investigation diary, there is a note which in Afrikaans says the mortuary at Diepkloof was visited and Constable Raat was consulted.  According to the mortuary register on the 18th of December ...

MR VALLY: I am sorry Mr Chairman, there is an Afrikaans interpreter available.  If Mr Richard can just hold on and we can put him in position.

MR RICHARD: I think I have referred to the document with sufficient clarity for people to know to what I am referring.  Now, what that in summary says is that the body was found on the 18th of December 1988, at a certain place.
 Now, how did the police learn that this body was that of Kuki Zwane's, can you tell us who Kuki Zwane is?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I think you made a mistake.  At the very same place, the second group that  I went with, was not explained as to who they were.  I went with the police and pointed the place out and I want to explain to you as to who the second group was or who did they comprise of.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do tell us.

JERRY RICHARDSON: The second group, there was a lady who works for the TRC.  I think her name is Liela.  I can point her out.  She is the one who came to me to request me.  I was happy that I was going to be accompanied by a white lady.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Yes, Mr Richardson.  Yes, you have told us that you went with the TRC officials.  Could you please just answer the question as to who Kuki Zwane is or was?

MR RICHARD: She according to my notes was the girlfriend of one Bothile and he was a member of your Club, to help you.  Bothile came from Brandfort, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, what brought Kuki Zwane to be found in December 1988 somewhere near a railway line and a school, dead?

JERRY RICHARDSON: As you have already explained, Kuki was Bothile's girlfriend.  We went to Brandfort with Mommy together with Mandela United Football Club.
 Bothile disappeared and we don't know where he went to.  We got some information to the effect that he had gone back to Brandfort.  We went to Brandfort.  When we got to Brandfort, we met with Kuki and Bothile.  I think the first time we did not see Kuki, but we saw her the second time we went there, we brought them back.

MR RICHARD: Now, it is correct that Bothile and Kuki came back with you to Johannesburg and then there was an interview between Mrs Mandela and Bothile and according to this, Mrs Mandela asked Bothile something about Kuki, what was it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: What did she ask?

JERRY RICHARDSON: She asked as to whether Bothile was involved with Kuki.  Bothile said yes and she said as from today, you should just go out and look for a job.  And she said he must go and look for work.  I admonished Bothile and said he must finish off his relationship with Kuki and join the Mandela Football Club, but at a later stage he left for Lusaka.  Kuki was living just near by.
 We saw that she went straight to her place.

MR RICHARD: And now, why were people not well disposed to Kuki?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I think Kuki was labelled as an informer at some stage, because she was not acting in accordance with Mommy's instructions.

MR RICHARD: What were those instructions that she disobeyed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That she must terminate her relationship with Bothile.

MR RICHARD: Now, did this lead, to cut it very short, to a suspicion that Kuki was an informer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And why was Kuki thought to be an informer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: If they chase you at Madiba's place, and you do not want to leave, you are told specifically that Madiba is not there and if you do not want to leave, they brand you as an informer and that you want to take the secrets of the household and divulge them to outside members.
 And they told me that I should put an eye on Kuki because Bothile also had a drinking problem.

MR RICHARD: Now, this discussion about the unsatisfactory state of affairs about Bothile and Kuki, went on for a number of weeks, is that not correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true, it went on for quite some time.

MR RICHARD: And a decision was made, what was that decision?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was approached to assault Kuki and she had once appeared before the Disciplinary Committee.  And a decision was taken that Kuki should be assaulted and that was our task, all of us.
 John Morgan used to take the children to school and he also got wind of the fact that Kuki was going to be assaulted.

MR RICHARD: And did she get assaulted?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, Kuki was assaulted.  I selected members of the team with whom I was going to carry out this task.  I selected Killa and explained to Killa what our task was and I pointed out that I trusted Killa very much.
 We moved from Diepkloof extension, I got R10-00 from Zinzi.  We took a taxi.  The taxi was going to Meadowlands and I had told a lie to Kuki and misled her to the fact that Bothile was in Meadowlands.
 I just pointed out a spot next to the station.  As the taxi went passed Orlando stadium, I paid the fare.  We got out of the taxi, together with Killa.  There are two schools there.  There is a stadium, there is another school.  First school and there is a second school.  In between there, there was a large rock and I told myself that we were going to use this large rock to kill Kuki because I did not have an initial plan as to how I was going to kill Kuki.
 I stabbed her, I slit her throat.  We dumped her body there.

MR RICHARD: And what happened in 1995 when Detective, Major, whatever his rank is, H.T. Moodley came to see you?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I haven't yet finished with Kuki.  Could I just finish?

MR RICHARD: Certainly.

JERRY RICHARDSON: We left Kuki's body there.  I moved with Killa towards Muzimuhle. I went to my place where I usually go to check if there aren't any tell tales of the offence that we had just committed.
 We went to my place and we looked.  My place at the time was disused, because nobody was staying there.  I washed whatever traces there were, in the river and I believed that I was going to dry along the way.  I reported to Mommy that Mommy, I have now carried out your orders, I have killed Kuki.
 And she said, the following day she wanted me to show her as to where I dumped Kuki's body.  We got into the car with Mommy, we went through Noordgesig towards Killa Road and I pointed out to Mommy.  She was on the driver's seat and I was on the passenger seat.
 I just pointed out at a distance that there is the place that I dumped Kuki's body.  She pointed out that the school kids will discover the body very quickly.  I made a mistake by dumping the body at such a spot.
 We went to the office, we parked the car as if we were checking at the office.  We went out, we parked the car.  That was how we left Kuki's body.

MR RICHARD: And then, did you ever speak about it to anyone else again between then and 1995?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember but it was myself and Killa who knew about this.

MR RICHARD: When Mr H.T. Moodley came to see you in 1995, did you mention this story to him?