Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, that will be your only conclusion, why else would she go to her Attorney?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: She didn't sustain any injuries, she didn't know who put up the bomb, so she wouldn't be able to claim civilly from them?
	Let me refer back to your statement ...(end of side B of tape)
"... Bruce Malgas met Gakkie Hardien at a party.  He told us that he missed us, but that we should watch his next move.  We understood by that that he referred to the bomb explosion."

MR P DU PLESSIS: ...(start of new tape) that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So it was a few weeks after the 31st of August, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: At that stage, who was your attorney?  Did you have an attorney?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I didn't have an attorney at that stage.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Or this attorney who protected you or represented you when these statements were taken, who was this person?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I told that we were approached by ...(indistinct) Joshua.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I further told you that there was an attorney and other guys from Jo'burg.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  Now ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: But beyond that, Gakkie bragged in the area that planted the bomb.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Beyond that, Gakkie bragged in the area, after the bomb blast it was a well known fact in the area that Gakkie planted the bomb.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now this was a very serious crime wasn't it, to set off a bomb?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, it was.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the centre was extremely seriously damaged at least.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And some people apparently got slightly hurt, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now I suppose you would immediately say to me you didn't approach the police because you didn't trust the police, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's a fact.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now did the police know anything about you Sir, were they biased against you?  Did the police at that stage consider you as an activist against the government?  The police of Athlone.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The police of Athlone?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would assume that, Sir.  Van Zyl's brother worked there.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Van Zyl's brother worked in Athlone at the time.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sir, the fact is, what was your impression at that stage?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: My impression of any police officer at that stage was that he was an agent of the government.

MR P DU PLESSIS: He was?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: An agent of the government.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He was there to protect and further apartheid.  You don't understand that?

MR P DU PLESSIS: You knew about attorneys, I'm sure, at that stage.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You knew that an attorney could protect your interests, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: To a fact, but limited.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well legal representatives in general, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, but only to a limited extent because the order of the day was still there, they could still protect themselves.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, the fact of the matter is, here this person is not only admitting that he planted the bomb, he's now threatening obviously to kill him, isn't it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you understand it that way?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you go to an attorney, Sir, to assist you and protect your interests, to write to the Minister of Justice or the Commissioner of Police?  Did you do that, yes or no?  Did you approach an attorney Sir, yes or no?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I did not.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Why not?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, you must take the epoch into consideration, you know that the State, the Security Police, there was other dirty tricks departments which had the protection of the State, why would we go and do that?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Are you saying that all attorneys and legal advisers were working for the government, Sir, and sympathetic to the government?  Do you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Most of them were.  Most of them were at the time.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Most of them.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There was an elite group of attorneys which took care of our interests.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fine, and you knew about the elite group of attorneys.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: To an extent.

MR P DU PLESSIS: People like - well not an attorney, but distinguished advocate, like Mr Bizos.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You knew about them?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I wasn't in contact with them at the time.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you knew about them, Sir.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I should have known about them, that's right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you would agree with me, Sir, that you realised at that stage, or you should have realised at least, that if you went to such a distinguished gentleman attorney or advocate, that at least they could place on record that there was such a threat that this person, Gakkie, was responsible for setting off a bomb and he was now again threatening you.  So that if something does happen to you in the future, at least people would know where to look to, to solve the crime, do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I know, but I told Gakkie straight I'm not afraid of him.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sir, the question still is, why didn't you take further steps?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because he had the protection of the State at the time.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the last point, I put it to you Sir, that the real situation is this, you were not, and that's what I'm going to argue to this Committee eventually, you were not present when the bomb exploded.  There was no crime against you and a later stage, in 1990, you people conspired, the people making these statements, except the people from the soccer club, conspired to give this evidence that you were in the building and that Gakkie and Van Zyl and Botha should have known that because of certain factors you mention in your statements.  Isn't that the true position?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It is an untruth.  At no stage is there a conspiracy and you can go and get those soccer people.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Just to tie this all up, the fact of the matter is you, all of you made your statements only at the end of October, 30th of October, and one person on the 1st of November, correct?  In 1990, more than a year after the explosion.  You agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you were all represented by the same attorney.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  And at that stage Sir, you had read widely in the press about Mr van Zyl and Botha and what Mr van Zyl was saying, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Please, you want me to believe that I was doing the wrong thing.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well Sir, I don't want ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I promise you, the fact is things were coming to the fore, but we were in that building when it exploded.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Why don't you want to answer my question, Sir.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: What is your question?

MR P DU PLESSIS: My question is simple, at that stage when you made your statement you already read widely in the press about Van Zyl and what he was saying, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was known, I testified to that effect earlier, but I didn't know the detail of what he was saying in his Section 29 or any other statements.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well Sir, by that time the Harms Commission also concluded its, the Harms Commission brought out its report already, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, I'm a layman, I don't read ....

MR P DU PLESSIS: But the fact is you read papers, Sir.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I read papers, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You watch television, Sir, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's a fact.