Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No that is totally a lie, as I have said mid Illovo area there was no political activities like ANC or IFP in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Now first you must understand, he didn't say you personally, he didn't say you personally, his perception was that members of the police were colluding with the IFP in the area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that's not correct?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That's not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you speak for each one of the police in the area?   Are you speaking for yourself or are you speaking for the police now?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I'm speaking for myself the way I know, the area in my station and my colleagues in that area, they were not involved with anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Yes, now mention was made of the presence of faction fighting which was to take place in the area or what was happening in the area.  Are you familiar with some of the aspects of these tribal faction fights which was taking place or which used to take place?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you say that's correct, when was the last time when the faction fights happened or was it during that time sometime when in March 1992, was there any faction fighting carrying on or taking place?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: At the time this incident took place there was no faction fighting but about two or three years back after this there was faction fighting in this area of Empangisa.

MR SIBEKO: Now the applicant has further testified before this Committee that he was a member, - before I come to that was there any organisational ...(indistinct) in the area that is whether it be an IFP or ANC at Empangisa area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know there was nothing of such matters.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of policeman are you, are you a detective or what are you?  What kind of work were you doing?  You say you're an investigating officer, were you a detective or were you a crime investigator?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, I'm a detective.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a detective at that stage?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: At that time I was investigating under the uniform branch because mid Illovo Police didn't have some detectives.

CHAIRPERSON: Or in uniform, you had nothing to do with security matters?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Political matters?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, now if of course there was any political activity was it possible, would you have known about it?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes if there was any political activities we would have known about it.

ADV BOSMAN: Sergeant - if I may just come in here Mr Sibeko?
It's very difficult to believe that there was no political activity.  I can understand if you say there was no political conflict.  Can you just clarify that for me please?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can say there was no political activities, or conflict, both of them, that took place in mid Illovo because the way I know mid Illovo there was no branch of either ANC or IFP in the area or any other organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: But this was when people were beginning to get ready for the elections and everyone was talking about the release of President Mandela.  This is why I find it bit difficult, I mean people in the country were generally discussing politics, was there no talk about politics in this area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can see the way it looks but mid Illovo is such that people of that area they were very quiet as far as I know.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Sibeko.

ADV SANDI: Do you mean to say that there were no people in this area who either believed in the ANC or the IFP?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: If there were I think they were taking that secretly because no on actually shown himself or identified himself as an ANC or any other item like that.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any flags around for the ANC or IFP?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Flags, there was nothing at all and that is the truth what I'm telling you.

ADV SANDI: No security branch office in the area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct, there are no security branches in the area.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBEKO: Now, this mid Illovo area, is it an urbanised area or a semi-rural area or rural area?  How is it?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can say it's a rural area.

MR SIBEKO: Now are you familiar with what the said applicant has stated before this court that when in fact well they used to be a faction which was aligned to IFP, that is Mr T Mthembu who used to launch some attacks from the farm areas?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes, I know Mr Mthembu but the way I know him is that he didn't belong to any political activities, political organisation because even the day the applicant showed that to Mr Mthembu it was just a friction just between the applicant and Mr Mthembu because the applicant, he didn't want Mr Mthembu to be appointed as an Induna for the youngsters because Mr Mthembu was just coming from the farms.

MR SIBEKO: So now let's for clarity purposes of the Committee, now Induna, you mean the Induna is Indonesiso?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: What's the rule of Indonesiso in a tribal rural set up.

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The work of an Indonesiso is to look after the youngsters if there's some weddings or anything that took place in younger people in the area.

MR SIBEKO: So now in your knowledge was at some stage maybe then or later, well before this incident happened, Mr Mthembu that is aligning himself with the IFP people, with the IFP?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No I don't know anything of such.

ADV SANDI: Did Mr Mthembu say to you he did not believe in any political cause?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes Mr Mthembu was questioned about that but he told me that he doesn't belong to any political organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you say that Mr Mthembu was a traditionalist?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, I cannot be specific with that but I can say he does belong to the traditional.

ADV BOSMAN: Is it not so that the traditionalists were by the youngsters, that's maybe why they didn't want him.  Were the traditionalist not regarded as IFP by the youngsters?  I'm not saying he was IFP, I'm asking whether the youngsters who perceived him did not perceive him as an IFP person or can't you answer that?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No I cannot answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it possible because there seemed, to my mind, there seemed to have been this identification of people who held positions of authority in the traditional system was regarded as some are being linked to the IFP?  So is the proposition that my colleague put to you not possible?  Even if it's wrong but that is a perception of the young people?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, I cannot comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't comment?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can't comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko, sorry.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Chair.  What I find it difficult to understand is that if there are no political clashes in this area why did you have to ask Mr Mthembu if he believed in any political cause in the course of your interview of him whilst you were investigating this case against Mr Mkhize?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The reason was that we wanted to find out whether it was a faction fight or it was a political.  As it was already mentioned here at that time there was some political conflict all over South Africa so what we had to find out whether this then was related to the faction fight or it was related to the political things.

ADV SANDI: The attempted murder had taken place in your area where there was no political conflict?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.