Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I would just like to record that in view of a development in terms of which we require information from the Department of Justice, we have all agreed to change the order of proceedings and we will be leading Mr Phillips in his application presently, so I call Mr Phillips to the stand.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  What page is the application on?

MR WILLS: Page 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 70?

MR LAX: 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 17.

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Dr Phillips, you have been a member of the ANC since what date?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: I became a signed up member in 1990.

MR WILLS: And from that date, in what capacity have you acted in the ANC?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: I was elected to the Branch, the Executive Branch, the Executive Committee of the Durban Central Branch before being elected to the Regional Executive Committee in Southern Natal at the end of that year, 1990.
	I served on the REC for the duration and with a break in 1993 until 1994.

MR WILLS: You are also an academic at the University of Natal in Durban?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: During that stage, yes, until 1994.

MR WILLS: And what was your field of expertise?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: I trained as a historian, but I taught in political studies, concentrating on South, Southern Africa and Soviet studies, from 1987 through to 1994 at the UND.

MR WILLS: When you talk about being a member of the Regional Executive Committee, that is of the Southern Natal region of the ANC?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Correct.

MR WILLS: And the offices that housed the Southern Natal region at the time, they were in Durban?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: That is correct.

MR WILLS: What is your present occupation?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: I am Special Advisor to the Minister of Public Works, who is sitting on my right.

MR WILLS: I refer you to page, sorry, you applied for amnesty in terms of the prescribed form and you attested to this on the 10th of May 1997 at Durban?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of this affidavit?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Yes, indeed.

MR WILLS: In this affidavit you apply for amnesty in respect of the facilitation of the establishment and supporting of SDU's, in particular through communicating information between military and political leadership from time to time.

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: That is right.

MR WILLS: What time span are we talking about here?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: We are talking about the period from 1991 sort of late 1990, 1991 all the way through to 1993.

MR WILLS: The end of 1993?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Well, the end of 1993, but we must understand that even within that time scale, the facilitation processes were different.  I mean for example there was a planning period.
	And then in 1993, things were wound down in terms of the ANC involvement in SDU activities.  So, that is the time span but there is different forms of participation during that.

MR WILLS: Well, let's start with your participation in the formation of SDU's.  Can you explain to the Committee in as much detail as you can remember, what that participation was?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: Well, first of all we, as was noted earlier in earlier evidence, SDU's have been in existence within communities in kwaZulu Natal for some considerable time from the 1980's onwards.
	With the unbanning of the ANC and SACP and MK, it was the task of an interim group to re-establish open public branches of the ANC in these various communities.  It wasn't simply a case of ANC branches just popping up everywhere, they had to be organised in a particular way.
	At that particular time and there was considerable violence in the immediate aftermath in kwaZulu Natal of Nelson Mandela's release, in a number of townships for example, there was some confrontations between people, at that time it was considerably shaky, the atmosphere in the country and of course negotiations hadn't quite started in any real earnest at that stage.
	But as a result of these developments, and continuing pressures on the ANC leadership, not only here but nationally as well, the preparatory work that went towards the ANC's Consultative Conference that was held at NASREC in December of 1990, indicated that the issues of self defence and ANC's response to self defence, would have to become clarified.
	That Conference, to cut a long story short, took a resolution that it was the ANC's responsibility and through the ANC, MK had a responsibility to participate and to help and assist communities when they were under attack, to develop their self defence capabilities.
	The ANC took the responsible position that self defence was of such a sensitive and serious nature, that it had to be coordinated, it had to be organised and it had to be disciplined, precisely to ensure that it didn't, that communities didn't run amok, or that self defence didn't perpetuate if you like, a spiral of violence or anything like that.
	With those decisions in the December 1990 conference, Headquarters, National Executive Committee made some preparations in terms of guidelines in how to establish these things, how to establish the contacts and the support of the ANC and MK for SDU activities, self defence activity.
	And these were all confirmed in the National Consultative Conference, the 48th I think it was, in July of 1991.  So for all intents and purposes, at an organised level, the ANC in Southern Natal as we already heard, became involved with self defence activities, SDU's in many of the communities from 1991 onwards.

MR WILLS: I am particularly interested in your involvement, your personal involvement.  If you can just explain that in detail to the Committee?

IAN MUNRO PHILLIPS: During that formative period, as you know members of MK and the ANC from outside, were returning home and during the course of a number of meetings and things, I had had meetings with Chris Hani over a period of time and he had indicated to me that he wished me to take over control if you like, or to facilitate and establish communication links between whatever structures were going to be set up in the Southern Natal region and the designated people in Johannesburg at Shell House, the ANC Headquarters, military Headquarters in particular.
	As a result of that, I was put in touch with individuals, Calvin Khan at military Headquarters and in this particular region, with the establishment of the relevant structures of MK in our region in 1991, I was put into contact with Mandla Sithole, comrade Mandla, this Sithole here.
	Likewise during that particular period, as has been indicated earlier, being on the REC I was involved in REC work of a normal nature, political education and otherwise and in that particular environment, was able to come into contact with a number of communities and to ascertain even independently and individually the necessity for self defence in this particular province.

MR WILLS: You have heard the evidence of Mr Radebe in relation to the procurement of arms.  Can you explain to the Committee what your role was in that regard?