Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MIKE ODENDAL: Our structures - all my orders I received from Dr Andre Immelman.  Although Dr Schalk van Rensburg was my direct Department Head all the Defence Force projects came through Dr Andre Immelman and Dr Schalk van Rensburg didn't really have inside knowledge of these projects.

MR VALLY: Let's go on, L95.

MIKE ODENDAL: Bacillus Anthraces in muis.  We did a lot of LD 50 tests, that means that we used a lot of mice to determine the pathogenicity of - we have about 45 different strains of Anthrax in our collection, and because the Kruger National Park is a basic endemic area for Anthrax, we met closely with them and to look at some of the problems that is associated with Anthrax in wild animals, so we obtained a number of isolates and we tested their pathogenicity in mice, and this project was all about that.  These results, I can just mention, I wrote it up and I published it in a scientific journal, The Onderstepoort Journal of Veterinary Science, 1992.

MR VALLY: Alright, thanks, the last two, 170 and 168, were these also both in-house projects?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.  170 was also Bacillus Anthraces.  The biochemical characterisation of all these different isolates which we obtained from the Kruger Park.  We did biochemical profiles on each of them, and these results I also published in The Onderstepoort Journal of Veterinary Science.

MR VALLY: And the last one?

MIKE ODENDAL: That's Campilabacta Dejornai, in bitches, tewe.  In these ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: That's fine, you don't have to give us the details of that.

DR RANDERA: Dr Odendal, can I just ask, in terms of your categorisation of "N", "R" and "L", this is for 1990/1991.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

DR RANDERA: Is there a possibility that whereas in one year, let's just take your L0170, it's the one that you were talking in terms Anthrax in the Kruger National Park, could that be converted to an "R" in the next year, because - or for example the septic shock one, whereas you say the idea was to develop treatment modalities on a model that would cause toxic shock.  Given that you were involved in biological warfare, and biological warfare to me means in it's simplest terms means killing human beings.  Could that experimentation not be converted towards what you were primarily involved in, which was biological warfare work?

MIKE ODENDAL: You see, we did not have any background on Anthrax.  We didn't have any working experience with the organism.  So what we had to do is we had to work with the organisms.  We had the proper facilities for that, you know, we created a P3 facility, and if the Committee wants me to expand on that, I will do so gladly, but you need specific laboratories to work with pathogenic organisms, which we had.  So, the experience you get with working with an organism obviously gives you experience, it gives you on-hands expertise.  So that experience you can use for whichever purpose is possible.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.  You mentioned that the Defence Force asked you to, or asked RRL to create facilities for the large-scale freeze-drying of I think you mentioned Salmonella, Anthrax, Cholera and a fourth item, I forget what is was, what is the fourth one?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yersinia.

MR VALLY: Yersinia.  Very briefly, what quantities are we talking about here?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well the quantities that was mentioned in one of these documents which seemed to corroborate the volumes which we produced, which was not very large.  It was normally in 10ml volumes in a 30ml McCarthy glass vile.

MR VALLY: Would it be very easy to produce much, much more from the vials that you had once you had the cultures?

MIKE ODENDAL: With the facilities we had, no.  You can, but over a very lengthy period of time.

WENDY ORR: Sorry, can I just ask, how many organisms, for instance if you have 10ml of Cholera in a bottle, how many Cholera organisms would be in that bottle?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, normally we would make a count afterwards, and we would be satisfied with 10 to the power of 8 per millilitre.

WENDY ORR: And that is 100 million, if I'm counting my 0's correctly?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, it's quite a lot of 0's.

DR RANDERA: And the potential of harm from that?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, it's difficult to say, you know, it's easy to play with numbers, but I very soon realised that it's not so easy to judge from what you have what it will be, because in the pathogenic status I have been involved with animals in my - as part of my veterinary training, it's not always easy to cause a specific disease they way you wanted to.  I think Dr Schalk van Rensburg mentioned the 3 Russians were infected and only one died.  You know, I was quite surprised one died because I don't think - you know, to my mind they shouldn't die because it doesn't normally work that way.

DR RANDERA: But you would still have a certain figure in mind.  I mean you've given all these confounders.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, some of these diseases would rather cause disease or incapacitation rather than mortality, and I think the organisms were involved in, apart from Anthrax, perhaps, all the other organisms will just cause slight - I won't say slight, but, incapacitation.

DR RANDERA: Sorry to push you on this one, but, given that you had a vile of Clostridium, let's take that as an example, whether we've talking about morbidity or mortality, you must have done certain calculations to say 1ml of the substance of the culture can affect so many thousands or so many hundreds of people, that's what I'm asking you.

MIKE ODENDAL: You see, we didn't really do those calculations because 10 to the power of 8 is the maximum number of organisms we can grow in a culture.  We can't grow any more, so we opted for the optimum number of organisms per millilitre.  So we didn't have any figures because that's not really available, how many organisms can incapacitate you, if I've answered your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: If we could go on.  If you were just having these cultures for testing purpose or for laboratory purposes, why would you be asked to keep larger quantities of these particular items, Salmonella, the Anthrax, the Cholera and the Yersinia.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, I was, I didn't keep them in my collection.  Those that were prepared in larger quantities I handed over to Dr Andre Immelman.

MR VALLY: Why do you hypothesise that the Defence Force asked you to produce these in larger quantities?

MIKE ODENDAL: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure if I understand you?

MR VALLY: If you only required these items to prepare defences against them, Salmonella, Anthrax, Cholera, Yersinia, you advised us that these were the items that you were asked to freeze-dry in large quantities.  What do you think was the reason why these particular items had to be freeze-dried in large quantities?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, one of the reasons that was given to me, was that Dr Jan Lourens from Protechnic wanted to test them for filter purposes because he was testing new protective - new types of protective clothing, and that was one of the reasons.

MR VALLY: That's one of the reasons that you were given?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: But I thought all the testing was done at RRL?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, Mr Chairman, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but we didn't do any testing.  We just took the organisms, put them in bottles, and that's it.  We didn't do any testing on them.

MR VALLY: I see.  Well, maybe you can tell me about TRC 52?
This is the so-called "verkopelys".  Now, do you see the document, do you have it with you?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, I have it in front of me.

MR VALLY: Now, you'll see there are a number of items on this list.  Let me refer you to some of them, we seem to involve some of the items in your field, "The botulism in the bierblik - 21st of June 1989", do you see it, about three quarter of the way down?