Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the intention was to go to Mr Thalede's house and not to his business premises, and that's why they decided not to use the front door of the house, but to jump the fence.   We are getting a little confused now with the evidence which is being given.   Why do they go to the Chicken Licken and not directly to the house?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: If I may explain there?   We left from the gate, through the gate Mr Makwena's house or place, and then we entered the gate of Mr Thalede's businesses.   We decided to use the path which is behind the businesses.    We jumped the fence and then we entered the businesses.   His house is not in the business area, it's just his businesses.

CHAIRPERSON: So the reference to the front door was in fact the reference to the front door of Mr Makwena and not Mr Thalede's house?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, the front gate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Because I heard Mr Thalede and not Makwena, so there was a problem with the translation then.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: I believe so, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe you made a mistake, we can't be blaming the translators all the time.   (Indistinct), I can't hear you, because you are speaking very low and I can't pick up.   I can understand what you are saying, because I speak Zulu myself impeccably, but I just cannot follow because your voice is so low, so I can't pick up whether this is a mistake of the translators or its yours.  However, we will now, I think proceed to correct that, because I think we all had that you had used the front door, that's what we have, the front door of Thalede's house, which just didn't make sense as soon as you started speaking about getting to the businesses of Mr Thalede.   I think let the record show that the witness intended to say they did not intend to use the front gate of Mr Makwena's house.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Indeed, Madam Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's the front gate of Mr Makwena's premises.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: You may proceed, Mr Ngxongo.

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: When we left the Chicken Licken, after we've realised that Mr Thalede is not in the Chicken Licken and there were stairs and then we met a certain guy whom we thought he was also working there, and Mr Mbambo asked this guy as to where was Mr Thalede, and then the guy turned and pointed at him, he was in his supermarket, he was standing next to the till in his supermarket.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And after Mr Thalede was pointed out in his supermarket, what did you do?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: We left this guy and we decided to go inside the supermarket.   I was wearing a black hat to hide my hair, Mbambo had a hat, a black cap.   We didn't want people to see our hair, so that people will have difficulty in identifying us as to whether we were coloureds or blacks.  We started speaking English there.    We were following each other.   We greeted four people who we met next to a till, we passed them.   As you know, a supermarket has shelves, we went in one passage and then we came on another passage, that's when Mbambo told me that when we arrived there, if he shoots Mr Thalede, I must go at the door and watch if there won't be any other person to disturb us or to try and shoot us back.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: How would you describe the position between yourself and Mr Mbambo, who was more senior in this IFP hit squad movement?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: After Sipiwe Mbuyane died, he was the senior, and after Sipiwe Mbuyane died, Romeo took over, he was my senior.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: So he gave you instructions to guard the door and you followed that order?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Just tell the committee, the people that were present inside the supermarket, who was that?   Were there any customers, for example?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: It was towards the closing time, there were not too many people there, there was Mr Thalede and another person, whom I trust maybe it was his brother and two other females, and one of the females was busy on the till, the other one was just standing there chatting.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Okay, and what happened then, after you are now at the door, busy guarding the door, what happened then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Mbambo started shooting Mr Thalede, as I was walking towards the door, and at this time Mbambo was ready.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: He was shot by Mbambo.   At that time, I was waiting there and looking towards the door, watching for anyone who will come and disturb us, so that I defend or I kill anything that will come on our way.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say you also had a gun in your hand?    Did you not say also that you had a gun in your hand, because that was not translated?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I was waiting there with a gun and pointing at the door with that gun.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just trying to correct your evidence, because that had been omitted by the translators.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chairman.   Can you inform the committee how many shots, if you can recall, were fired by Mr Mbambo?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I wouldn't be able to say so, but it was quite a number.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Did you maybe saw where this shots hit Mr Thalede, where was he shot, in which part of his body?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I was looking outside and at the scene where Mr Thalede and Mbambo were, I saw Mr Mbambo's gun pointing at Mr Thalede's body, and also at his head.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: But if I understand you correctly, you cannot definitely say and state in which part of his body was he shot?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I won't be able to say so, but I saw him, because one can tell when a gun is pointing down and when the gun is pointing at somebody's body, but as I heard the fire shots, I cannot say that that shot shot him at his body, but I saw him pointing the gun at his body.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And after the shots were fired, what happened then?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: After he finished shooting him, he came running and then we came out and we ran away, and then we went back and jumped the same fence which we've jumped as we were coming here, and then when we arrived there - there's just one thing I would like to highlight, something that I've forgotten, when we came to Thalede's place, we decided that I should park the Caravelle far, so that when we leave the area there of the scene, we don't jump immediately inside that kombi, and then when we ran away, Mr Makwena's Nissan was parked there, 4 x 4, and then we jumped in and David got inside, drove us to, and took us to the car where we've hidden the kombi, and then we left.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: I just want to take you back to the supermarket scene, did the bodyguard of Mr Thalede fired any shots after Mr Mbambo fired his shots?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: No, he didn't.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Except for the shots fired by Mr Mbambo, were there any other shots fired, that you are aware of?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: When Mbambo was firing this gun, it was at night, I was at the door, I thought that there were other gunshots, but then it wasn't, I think it was just the echo, because I didn't see anyone shooting there, it was just Mbambo.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Did you yourself fired any shots in the supermarket that evening?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: No, I didn't.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Did you fired any shots outside of the supermarket that evening?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: No, I didn't.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: You further testified that you got into a white Nissan 4 x 4 and eventually into your VW Caravelle kombi and you left for Natal, is that right?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: That's correct.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: What happened after that, when you arrived -or where did you go to when you first entered Natal?