Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: No it was jail, it was just a sarcasm that I was being taken to hospital.  Then I was detained here in this Kimberley.  When I was complaining for medical treatment I would be taken to the prison's hospital and then I was told that they were saying they were going to order the prisoners to slash my face with razor blades.
 Naude came during this period, Mala was also together with him.  They took me in 1987, between 1987 and 1988, I think it was during the time when there was (...indistinct).  We came back on that road.  In this Sierra the people were entertaining themselves.  There was a rifle here with three magazines.  The first thing that came to my mind was that I am going to be assaulted, so I wanted to grab one of them and take one of the rifles but I realised that this might be the trap because maybe they wanted me to take these so that they can assault me.  We overtook two buses on our way.  There were people on the road.  During their discussion because it was another police car which was here all the policemen who were there went out next to the car.  I was taken out.  I was a little bit better now and my back I think you can see my back is bent now it is the consequences of the assault.  When we were there along the road beers and some meat was taken out.  Naude asked me do I know the taste EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
19 T JORDAN
of the beer.  I said no.  He said do I remember, he asked me if I remember what this reminds me of.  I said no.  The only thing that they were doing they were torturing me, harassing me, pointing fingers at me.  The dumpies were then taken and they would take the R5 and shoot at these bottles. They will always do this and take the bottle, put it on the boot and then they would shoot it as a target, and when they shoot it as a target, this bottle, they would make it the bullets would pass next to my head.  I kept quiet because I was asking myself what was their intention of doing this.  They tried to give me the meat but I refused.  They forced me, they said I am going to eat the meat.  I said I won't.  I asked them when they said they were taking me along did they want to give me meat.  So they had already taken their share and I told them that they should have called me to be part of them so that I can take part in this braai.  The others said to me we have just removed the rubble which was done by your friends.
 We travelled again along, and then we went straight to East London.  They were under the influence of alcohol at the time.  I think the car was driven at a speed of 200 kilometres per hour.  When we were next to Grahamstown we were at the curve and we nearly missed the corner but in the end we arrived at our destination in East London and it was during the night.  
 Hageman was brought along and they were told that this person is the most dangerous, and they were also told that if they are taken to a communal cell they should make sure that there should be somebody to monitor his movements because we know how influential he is.  I knew Hageman from Kimberley Prison and that he was going - we knew each other 
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
20 T JORDAN
very well, and I think that he was informed already about the fact that I was coming also.
 On the second week I requested that I should be given medical treatment.  Hageman told me that you will never get any treatment, you must wait for your death.  He went away and went to (...indistinct).  He looked at my (...indistinct) and asked what is the problem with your (...indistinct) because it looks like a pigsty and he aliked me to a pig and I retaliated by saying the same thing about him.  It was said that I was supposed to go to the hospital again.  I went to Fort Glamorgan which is a prison.  Hageman was already there and Sergeant Kitchen and some few policemen.  There was a major or a captain.  The captain said to me, and the cells are very dark here, the people who were witnessing during the Songelwe case know what I am talking about, I was informed that I was going to get lectures on the area in which I am going to stay.  I was told that from cell no.1 to cell no.40 something I was told all the people who were imprisoned, Qosa Miliqweta, all the activists that I know of, I was told about Joe Mati and all others, Mapetla was also mentioned, and I was told that people who were detained in these cells seldom survive either mentally or physically.  I was advised to behave myself so that I can survive. It was about 30 minutes for each cell I was given the history, and then I was told that the cell in which I was detained it was occupied by Mgabele because they said our minds were alike.  So I could remember that there is a link between Mgabele and the jail because they asked me about him previously.  
 It was on a Thursday when I first came here.  During the day when Songelwe was here knocking at the door saying 
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
21 T JORDAN
that he is asthmatic, they were kicking the doors trying to ask for help, I was next to that cell because they were at the communal cell.  All these efforts which were done to save the life of Msongelwe nobody, the policemen were around, but no one took heed of his cries. The policemen were always peeping through.  They knew that there was somebody who was in trouble but they didn't do anything to save his life.

MR SANDI: Without going any further, except that you have anything to say ...(intervention)

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: I thought you were carrying on.

MR SANDI: Mr Jordan there is nothing that I can ask, I may give the Commission a chance.