Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Yes, I might be making a mistake with the dates, because I submitted my application approximately four years after this incident occurred, and I also put it like this to the amnesty committee in Cape Town, by means of my attorney, that if there would be some lack of clarity or if there would be any kind of queries regarding this aspect, we would rectify it with the greatest willingness, because I might make a mistake with certain aspects, but that I entered the struggle at that stage, was passively in the middle of 1993, and then more actively afterwards.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you say passively in the middle of 1992?

MR VISSER: Yes, I did say that, Mr ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: But you just said now 1993?

MR VISSER: Actively 1993, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

GEORGE BIZOS: May I just ask two questions in relation to place the events in time space, two questions?

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you see Mr Clark about you applying for amnesty and you felt a duty to inform him, when did you do that?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that was, if I can recall back, it was, I would say in about two to three weeks before I lodged my application.

GEORGE BIZOS: Okay, we've got the date of the application on the application ...(intervention).

MR VISSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...I think that's enough.   The other thing is this, the struggle that you became passively involved in and the struggle that you became actively involved in, was your association with what is called...  (tape ends)
	...information and the announcement of the formation of the Freedom Front?

MR VISSER: It was before that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that before General Viljoen made any statement about the Freedom Front, you had been involved in these activities?

MR VISSER: Yes.   Yes, I was involved.

GEORGE BIZOS: Both actively and passively?

MR VISSER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry that I exceeded by thirty three and a third percent, Mr Chairman.   That's all, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just two questions, Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Visser, you testified that you collected ammunition to prepare for the struggle?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in what way was this ammunition to be used, did you have particular targets?

MR VISSER: The instruction at that stage were that, from General Constand Viljoen, and it's also part of his amnesty application, is that on the evening of the election of April 1994, the instructions were clear that at that stage that the voting locals must be bombed, electrical power lines must be sabotaged, all roads towards the election voting stations must be possible be closed, also the, if the command was given, that the police stations must be attacked, command structures at that stage that were already in place would then operate from those places, and basically the country would have been brought into a state of war.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there any mention made of individuals ...(intervention).

MR VISSER: At that stage ...(intervention).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...(indistinct) in this ...(intervention).

MR VISSER: At that stage the involved was given that after the night of the election ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is about a year after the killing of Mr Chris Hani, this is 1994, and strictly speaking it's not relevant for present purposes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions then.   Thanks.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Unless there are any other applications for the hearing of evidence in camera, I propose to allow the public in to the hearing.   Before I take an adjournment to enable that to be done, are you calling any further witnesses?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we would ask that Mr Clark be called, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You're calling Mr Clark?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   To try and save some time, can you send a message to whoever controls the doors that they may open them?

CHAIRPERSON: Penny's going to do that?   Very well, let's proceed with the next witness then.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: (affirms to speak truth)

GEORGE BIZOS: Where do you live, Mr Clark?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I live in Pretoria, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is today the first day on which you've come to a hearing of this committee?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No sir, I have been here on a number of occasions previously.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you knew that the counsel for the commission and the families' attorneys were looking for you?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why didn't you volunteer to the counsel for the commission that you were at the commission and taking photographs and taking a vital interest in the proceedings, why didn't you do that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I beg your pardon, would you repeat the question please?

GEORGE BIZOS: Why didn't you, if you knew that counsel for the commission and the attorneys for the family were looking for you, why did you surreptitiously come to the meetings of the committee and not identify yourself to counsel for the commission?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That's not correct, Mr Chairman, from the time I became aware that you were looking for me, I simply stayed away.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Because I did not wish to testify, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I have a moral problem with the functioning of the TRC, that is the truth of the matter.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.   And what made you change your mind?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I got a request from certain people to appear over here, people whose wishes I respect, and on the basis of that request, I decided to come.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who requested you to come and on whose behalf did you change your mind about the commission?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: The legal counsel for Mr Derby-Lewis sent me a request that I do appear, I got this request yesterday afternoon, and on their request I will do it with pleasure.

GEORGE BIZOS: Weren't you in constant contact with Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis ever since these proceedings started in May, I beg your pardon, last year in Benoni?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Constant contact, no sir, I stay quite far away from them.   There was occasional contact however.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't Mrs Derby-Lewis tell you right at the beginning of the hearing in Mamelodi that you were required by the family in order to give evidence?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: A number of people informed me of this, I cannot remember whether Mrs Derby-Lewis specifically told me or not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you come to Mamelodi?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I did not, sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you come to Johannesburg?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Before today, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you then attend meetings of the committee?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: It was in Pretoria Town Hall, which is close to where I live.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know at that time that your name had been mentioned and that Mrs Derby-Lewis said that she could get through to you with some difficulty on some plot or other?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No sir, that was before that time.   In Pretoria, I would sit in the audience and you mentioned my name on occasion.   At that point, you did not require my presence.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you hear that counsel for the commission was leaving messages for you all over the place?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I got various messages all over the place, Mr Chairman, I cannot remember the exact dates, but when you were looking for me, the odds are that shortly thereafter I received your message.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr , will you get down to the purpose of the questioning instead of ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   Did you ask the previous witness, or rather did the previous witness ask you or tell you that he was applying for amnesty?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: You are referring now to Mr Visser?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.