Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-12-04

MR MCADAM: And with these military attacks on neighbouring States, would NI be involved in these?.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: NI would in no way  be involved in such operations except in terms of CIC, to which I have referred, where it would have been possible that information could be wanted and if we had received information on military targets, we would have known that this was the policy of the Government. And if we had information on these targets, if I can call them that, we would supply the information to the Intelligence community.

MR MCADAM: Perhaps you could help us. We have an amnesty application with a senior member of National Intelligence.  He avers in his application and I accept that the document was served on your attorneys, I was informed that, that was the case...(intervention)

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: If you can just tell us who it was?

MR MCADAM: Jan Anton Niewoudt.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes we have received that very late, but we have received it.

MR MCADAM: The crux is that he explains a system that was developed.  He developed a target dossier and gave that to the Head of the Defence Force.  It was then given to the Minister of Defence and then to an/or the State Security Council or the Cabinet and then it was then approved, then a working group would have then been compiled.  The purpose of this working group would have been how the target had to be eliminated and he avers that a member of  NI was at all stages involved.  Can you comment on that averment?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: There are so many questions in that question of yours, can you just explain to me exactly what you want to know, what exactly your question would be?

MR MCADAM: In the first place was whether a member of NI, would have been a member of that working group?  With regards to how the elimination of these targets would have taken place?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chair, we have received the document of the request from Jan Anton Nieuwoudt.  May I ask you, are you referring to the case of Trevits, is that what you are referring to? MR McADAM :  Unfortunately the pages aren't numbered but it would then be the 5th last page at the top, point number 3, "General Joop Joubert" and at the bottom it says "if any people were injured, killed etc". But point number 9 is that a senior officer of NI whose name I can't remember, is there mentioned.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: On that same page to which you are referring, which says General Joop Joubert.  Point number 11 thereof Airforce and Navy members, there's a paragraph that says, due to a lack of co-ordination Trevits was put in place in some year, if I remember correctly Trevits is an abbreviation for Counter Revolutionary Intelligence Task Force.  In the period, especially from 1986 when the emergency was declared, a body was put in place in the Intelligence community to co-ordinate the Intelligence regarding this revolutionary problem.  I cannot remember that Trevits ever was involved in foreign Intelligence but I understand that they did that on occasion.  I'm referring to a senior officer of NI, and I want to say NI never had any officers.  We were not an army structure and it should be referred here to NI. To the best of my knowledge we had a person and I think at certain stages more persons served on this body where the Intelligence was co-ordinated.  And what is stated furthermore in this statement is it was a kind of Intelligence database regarding targets in Lesotho or internally and there we would provide a specific input but the actions afterwards of those departments and the departments who acted accordingly had nothing to do with NI.

MR MCADAM: We are referring to the time before Trevits when this work group was established.   According to Mr Nieuwoudt he was a Major and then he was promoted to a Commander, that the targets discussed for elimination were not only military targets based on military actions it also included political leaders who were senior members of illegal organisations who were hiding away in these neighbouring States and these methods entailed poisoning, car bombs and assassinations.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I can't react on that.  My information is that the intelligence gathered and the contributions we made from the side of NI to the development of Intelligence databases had to do with people involved in a military conflict.

MR MCADAM: You see one of the prominent targets for which he's applying for amnesty is Albie Sachs and I can't think he can be described as an armed terrorist.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I don't want to become involved in that argument, I don't know of such information, I can't answer that, I was not involved in that, I can't answer that.

MR MCADAM: So, such actions would that be directed against the Government of the day?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Yes.

MR MCADAM: And a member of NI, would he be involved in this discussions?  Would you accept that he would report back and say that they were busy with illegal actions and certain steps should be taken against them?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: The document you provided to me in no way refers at that stage, and you're mentioning a structure I don't know which structure you are referring to, you referred to Trevits at the end of the document and this person whose applying for amnesty says the information my duty was to gather Intelligence regarding two things:  We interrogated ANC, SACP, PAC members who were interrogated .  We got information from the Security Branch, the NI and a directorate covert information and reconnaissance by special tasks.  These information was evaluated and correlated by me in a specific docket and presented to Constance Viljoen.  I don't know to which structure you are referring.
 My  answer is "No,  the SSC  and  the   structures  I  know of,  at  no stage made any decisions regarding this matter.

MR MCADAM: So NI would not have been involved in any discussion to eliminate people, to eliminate political people?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: What do you mean by eliminate?

MR MCADAM: To kill.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: No, no they were not involved in that.

MR MCADAM: Can you think of any reason why a senior officer of the Defence Force in such a position would allege that there was one of NI members present when the execution took place.

MR TREURNICHT: I just want to mention that this question does not follow on the information provided in the amnesty application.  In the paragraph 9 it says
"The following members of the South African Defence Force also had knowledge, they had knowledge.  All played certain roles in planning this operation...
and then reference is made to certain people with certain ranks and then also to a senior officer of NIA, that was a structure which was established at that time.  You know that NIA was only a recent establishment and I don't think the question could be formulated as my learned colleague is doing.

MR MCADAM: : On the previous stage mention is made of the planning of the operation and that was after a target was decided on, and authorisation was provided to act against that target.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chairman, this document in front of me says, with respect, not what I'm hearing, it's not saying that, I am repeating -  NI provided Security Intelligence, provided information for Intelligence databases during the conflict of that time.  We were not involved in this matter regarding Albie Sachs.

MR MCADAM: And, if we go further on, CIC was established and you were the chairman for a long period?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MCADAM: And, if I understand you correctly CIC was only for Intelligence purposes, not to eliminate or to kill people?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MCADAM: And during that period with your time at NI and a member of the SSC did you have anything to do with Johan van der Merwe of the South African Police?