Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, now your entire application is contained in paragraphs 49 - 88 of your affidavit in support thereof, is that correct, as amplified by your oral evidence, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Nowhere in those paragraphs or in your oral evidence, did you mention the name of July Mthethwa, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  And also you amplified your application, your written application in your oral evidence, by mentioning the name of Mangethi, whose full names are Elias Jwi Zwane, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: As someone who has supplied you with weapons, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: That is true.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  Now throughout your detailed explanation in your affidavit, you mentioned several people who did supply you with weapons, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Under cross-examination from Mr Patel, you came up with several other people who supplied you with weapons, who were not mentioned in your application, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Why didn't you mention Mangethi in your application if you remember him so well?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He is not the only one whom I remembered yesterday.  There are other people.
	If I get a chance to remember after some evidence, I will be able to mention them.  I even mentioned yesterday that the things that I wrote, were written at one instance and after we were discussing this verbally, I remembered exactly chronologically the events.
	Therefore is there is anyone whom I remember, I will mention it, I am not trying to hide any person.  You might be surprised because I will also reveal there were business people who were supporting us financially.

MR SWANEPOEL: Were you aware of the fact that Mangethi was an ANC member at the time?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It surprises me, I think it will be a mistake before the House.  I had a way, because he was a very close friend of mine.  A very close friend.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, for the record, Mangethi denies supplying you with weapons.  What do you say to that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Before I answer that, does he admit that he knows me?

MR SWANEPOEL: Just answer the question Mr Hlongwane.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will answer your question ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, you are being cross-examined now.  You must just answer the question put to you and the Advocate doesn't have to answer questions put to him, by you.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Will you please repeat the question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Mangethi denies supplying you with weapons.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: With respect, I will say that he is making a mistake.   Even his sister there, while I was in Ermelo prison, he came to see me and he also gave me R50-00.  I don't know what, it might be between me and him if he now denies that he knows me.

MR SWANEPOEL: If the Committee will just bear with me for a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Hlongwane, are you aware that Mr Mkhonza Dingaan Maluleka and Andries Mtunzi, has been indicted by the Attorney General to appear in front of the High Court to answer to certain charges, which relates to the incidents of the attacks on ANC houses, related to in your application?  Is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I am the witness, I know that.

MR SWANEPOEL: For the record, I wish to state that these people deny the version of the applicant relating to those incidents.  As they have already been indicted at this stage, they are not prepared to make any comment, save to bluntly deny the version of the applicant Mr Chairperson.
	Thank you Mr Applicant, I have no further questions.

MR SWANEPOEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Swanepoel.   Mr Mpshe, I think I will ask you to ask questions after Mr Patel has finished his cross-examination, it might be better, and also with re-examination, I think it will be better once Mr Patel has finished his cross-examination.
	Mr Patel, are you in a position to proceed now, or do you have to get further instructions, what is the position?

MR PATEL: I think a half an hour adjournment would suit me at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, half an hour, if it is sooner, if it is shorter, so much the better.  Thank you.  We will take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (still under oath)

MR PATEL: (cont)
	As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  I am working as best as we have been able to under the time constraints set on us.
	The following, we would like to place on record, that all of the people that we represent, at this stage are not going to formally withdraw their opposition.  However, they want their names to be recorded as still opposing depending on whether or not satisfactory answers are going to be furnished by the applicant in respect to certain questions that I have been asked to put.
	The list of the victims number 22, the first of which is Lucy Sibanyoni, the second is Miriam Mabel Shongwe, the third is Madoda Lionel Mbokwane, the fourth is Georgina Thembie Nkosi, the fifth is Johannes Somandla Mabusa, he is commonly known as Mr Crucket, the sixth person is Cornelia Suzanna Maseko, the seventh is Thami Khaba, the eight is Georgina Ndlovu, the ninth is Lindiwe Makhubu, the tenth is Jeanette Phikile Mtsweni, the eleventh is Jeremiah Mkhulenyelwa Mashinini, Jabulani Philemon Malinga, that would be twelfth.  Thirteen is John Bloze, fourteen is Lena Bloze, fifteen is Lucky Nkosi, sixteen is Julia Phungwayo, seventeen is Julia Kubheka, eighteen is Lucas Hlophe, nineteen is Tilly Malaza born Nkosi, twenty is Andries Maphosa, twenty one is Aaron Mkomo and finally there is Zulu Hezekiel (indistinct).
	I have been instructed to put limited questions just in order to get clarity on certain things.

UNKNOWN: Just before that Mr Patel, if I may interpose here.  Are you in a position to indicate in respect of which incidents, the opposition relates or to which incidents the opposition relates?

MR PATEL: The instruction that I have at present sir, is simply that the opposition is not been formally withdrawn as such in respect of all the applicants whom I have mentioned.
	The feeling is that in respect of these limited questions which I am going to ask, which won't number more than ten, if the answers are satisfactory, the chances are that the opposition will disappear.

UNKNOWN: Mr Patel, I really do not understand you.  Truly speaking, you are saying the opposition is not being formally withdrawn.  What really does that mean?  When are you going to proceed with the opposition for purposes of this period, this minute, you are not withdrawing your opposition, yet you will be proceeding to put certain questions on Mr Hlongwane.
	You are aware of course of the provisions of the Act that you are at liberty to oppose on any ground as long as your opposition relates to Section 20(2) and also relates to the criteria in terms of Section 29(3).
	I do not understand you when you say you are not going to formally withdraw your opposition.  When are you going to take it up, we don't have months, we don't have weeks to sit and hear this matter.  You either proceed with your opposition and put questions in relation to the opposition that you have been instructed to do, or you really reconsider your position when it comes to that particular issue of opposition.

MR PATEL: I think I can really consider my position so soon as I have put these questions that I have been asked to put, then I can make a ...

UNKNOWN: Are you still going to ask us to adjourn the matter for you to reconsider your position?  You requested us to give you 15 minutes or 30 minutes to take instructions.  We must presume that you have not taken the proper instructions from your clients.