Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The whole matter was investigated.  I can mention that according to the ballistic report, the 38 revolver they found two shells and two live rounds but according to the ballistic personnel, the forensic evidence, they did not find any residue on the hands of the deceased.  Could I just clear up a point here?  	Once again Fouche states that I would have given him an instruction that directly after he picked up the people he must take the people to fire shots in order for them to have gunpowder residue on their hands and that is confirmed by the forensic personnel saying that they did not find any gunpowder residue.  That is what I do not understand, but now it is clear to me that the people in the vehicle did not fire, that the fire or the shots were fired from the side of the shop without any instructions.  That is why I am in front of you today.  	It seems now that my instruction to shoot the people in the vehicle was a mistake.  At that stage I thought that the shots could only come from one place and that is from the vehicle because they were the only people who could have shot because none of the other backup groups had the instruction to fire, no one else could have fired, not even the people on the roof.  There was a specific instruction given that no one will shoot unless I shoot first.

MR MALAN: We have to get an impression of what you are saying to us and we have to find out what happened and if it fits in an amnesty application that you bring to us.  If I listen to you now and if I summarise it correctly, you are trying to say to us and that what you are thinking is that Fouche wanted to get rid of these three men and he wanted to frame you for it.  Is that what you are saying to us?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: You can see it in that light.

MR MALAN: I'm asking you how you see it because you said he's got an agenda, and everything that you say to me is as if you are putting this story in front of us.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.  Fouche was a co-accused, the case was withdrawn against him in 1994 and he is now state witness.  That is what I'm trying to say to you.

MR MALAN: But that does not bring us closer to the truth because we haven't got evidence concerning this.  I'm going to leave it there.
	In conclusion I'd like to follow the following up.  You said that in order to succeed in your application for amnesty you must admit that you committed an offence and that this specific offence was committed with a specific political motive.  In your evidence you did not have an objective firstly, in order the killing is in an attempt to arrest them, things went wrong.  So the political objective, if you had one, would then be around the arrest.  But the arrest would not have been an offence because it is a legal arrest and that is the problem that we've got.  	
	Concerning the facts that you present to us, I understand it and I see it as well, and I think that is why the advocates said that they would clear this up in their argument.  I would just like to say that from the Amnesty Committee's side that wherever they can, if they have to they will stretch towards the side of the applicant but there must be a basis for which we can do this, but I'm struggling to find it.  We will then wait for your witness.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I raise something arising from what you've just told my colleague, and that is that I understood your evidence and I may have been mistaken, that you heard the shots coming from below you, in front of you.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you have just said the shots could have come from the car, so you didn't hear them coming from in front and below you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Maybe you did not understand me correctly.  I heard the shots and my conclusion was the only place where they can come from is from the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: How could you come to that conclusion when you knew people had walked off to the right, who were presumably armed?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your Honour, only one person had to walk to the right hand side and that is Fouche.

CHAIRPERSON: But Joseph went with him?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I did not carry any knowledge about that, it was not the instruction and I did not know about that.  He was supposed to go alone around the corner.

CHAIRPERSON: So were none of you people watching what was going on below you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It was impossible because then they would have immediately seen us on the roof.

CHAIRPERSON: So you just ordered "open fire" because you heard a shot coming from somewhere which you couldn't place?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: As I explained it to you, my only conclusion was that it could have come from the vehicle in front.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had no evidence to support that, it was merely a conclusion?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Oh, sorry you said you were calling the witness, what's her name, Mrs or Ms de Lange?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair, I beg leave to call Elsa de Lange?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: (sworn states)

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Ms de Lange, do you know the applicant, Mr de Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I know the applicant.

MR MADASA: Since when, when did you know him for the first time?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: October 1991.

MR MADASA: Do you know the deceased persons?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I do.

MR MADASA: How?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We were friends from 1983.

MR MADASA: Friends?  How?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Through politics.

MR MADASA: Were you a member of the ANC?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I'm a member of the ANC.

MR MADASA: And them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They were members of the ANC too.

MR MADASA: Were you an MK member?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I'm a member of the MK.

MR MADASA: Them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They were members of MK.

MR MADASA: When did you start to become an MK member, you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Me?  1983.  I was part of the ANC going around with those guys.

MR MADASA: No, I mean MK.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, well the MK.

MR MADASA: 19?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: '83.

MR MADASA: '83?  And the deceased, do you know when they joined the MK?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I don't know.  I don't know.

MR MADASA: When did you become aware for the first time that they were also MK members?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Because they used to go to Zone 13 with me, to those meetings of the ANC.

MR MADASA: Did you later become aware that the deceased were MK members?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Who?  Sorry?

MR MADASA: Did you later become aware that the deceased were MK members?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, they were just going with me to those meetings so we realised that all of us we were MK members but we were not active MK members so they just go along with me to those meetings and let me put it this way, they were card carrying members.

MR MADASA: Pardon?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Card carrying members.

MR MALAN: Card carrying members of what, Ms de Lange?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Of the ANC.

MR MALAN: Not of the MK?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: The MK is ANC.

MR MALAN: No, card carrying members, ANC?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja, ANC.

MR MALAN: Did you see their cards?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MALAN: All of them?  All of their membership cards?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, not all of them.

MR MALAN: So whose did you see?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I saw Joseph's card and Buthelezi.

MR MADASA: Ms de Lange were you an MK trained member?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I got my training.

MR MADASA: Pardon?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I got training.

MR MADASA: Where were you trained?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: In Sebokeng itself.

MR MADASA: Do you know if any of the deceased was trained as well?