Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR NGOBESE: I dispute that because we were not attacking, we were on our way to the Library Gardens.   I think we were going to join Plein Street and proceed to the Library Gardens but, unfortunately, we never reached there because we were shot at and some of us were killed.

MR P A VAN WYK: In your own recollection, did you hear any shots being fired from your co-marchers in the group that you were, towards either Shell House or the guards?

MR NGOBESE;: I don't remember hearing that.   The only shots I heard was when we were being shot at.

MR P A VAN WYK: You have also heard the evidence of the Applicants, in which some of them stated that they regret the incident.   Are you prepared to forgive any of them who had possibly shot you?

MR NGOBESE: It is not easy to forgive them because we were injured deliberately.   That time Zulus were being harassed left, right and centre.   You were being harassed for the fact that you are a Zulu and an IFP.   I want to emphasise this, that at the time Zulus were being harassed, you will just suffer the consequences of being a Zulu.
	Now, to forgive them, after they have lied to this Committee, it does not come easy for me because they are telling a blatant lie to this Commission.

MR P A VAN WYK: The injury you have, could you mention to the Committee where you were injured, on your body?

MR NGOBESE: I was injured on my knee, on my right knee.   I would like to show you.   Let me do this so you can see exactly.   This is where I got injured, maybe the ones who are right next to me are able to see exactly.   The bullets were extracted but some liquid was drawn from the knee.

MR P A VAN WYK: After you were shot, did you attend the meeting at Library Gardens?

MR NGOBESE: No, I did not attend the meeting.   After the shooting stopped, some of my colleagues took me to Hook Street where I was taken by an ambulance and ferried me to Hillbrow Hospital.

MR P A VAN WYK: Do you know why you were shot on that day?

MR NGOBESE: I don't know the reason why.

MR P A VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.   No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN WYK

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Ngobese were the first shots that you heard that day, the ones that you say were fired at you by the guards at Shell House?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Was that the very first time that you saw firearms on that day?

MR NGOBESE: No, I knew a firearm that day.

MR TIPP: On that day, had you seen firearms at any time before the ones that you saw in the hands of the ANC guards?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I saw police having firearms in their possession.

MR TIPP: Were those the police that you referred to at Hook Street?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, even then I saw some.

MR TIPP: Did you, at any time, see any firearms in the possession of people who were in your group?

MR NGOBESE: No, I did not see anything that time.

MR TIPP: Not at Nancefield?

MR NGOBESE: Nothing.

MR TIPP: Not on the journey to Park Station?

MR NGOBESE: The only firearms I saw were the ones that the police at Nancefield had.

MR TIPP: Were those police who had come to attend to incidents early that morning at Nancefield, in which people got killed?

MR NGOBESE: No, each time we will be going to a meeting, they will escort us to the Nancefield Station and we will proceed thereafter.

MR TIPP: Let me just ask you, are you aware of incidents at Nancefield;  one at 4.30 in the morning when someone was killed there, and another at about 6.40 in the morning, that which a driver got killed and police had to take action?

MR NGOBESE: It's my first time hearing that, ja.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, just for the record, that's drawn from the police submissions to the Goldstone Commission, we don't propose to burden your record further with that.
	And Mr Ngobese, during the time of the shooting at Shell House, you say the only shots that you were aware of, were those that came from the side of the ANC?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Were you walking quite peacefully throughout your journey from Park Station, until the point when you got shot?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, this is so.   We were singing our traditional songs.

MR TIPP: But you were walking in perfectly good order.   Is that your evidence?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Did you proceed, once you had turned into King George Street from Noord Street, did you proceed marching peacefully and in good order, down King George Street, across De Villiers Street to the point where you got shot?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, we were just walking or marching peacefully.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, you have mentioned that you were in the third group, as you left Park Station.

MR NGOBESE: It may be the third group or second group.   I am not quite too sure, I said that earlier on.   It definitely wasn't the first group.

MR TIPP: I would like you please just to tell us what you can remember about the way in which you moved.   Is it correct that there was a very large number of marchers who had journeyed in from Nancefield that day?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is so.

MR TIPP: Induna Mbatha was the senior Induna, correct?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: And was he leading the entire march?

MR NGOBESE: Mbatha handed or delegated us to other sub-Indunas to lead the other groups.

MR TIPP: Yes, we will come to those other Indunas in a moment.   My question is specific.   Was Induna Mbatha as the senior Induna, leading the entire march, at the head of all the groups?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is correct.

MR TIPP: And would it be so that all the groups, with their own more junior Indunas, would follow Induna Mbatha?

MR NGOBESE: I'm not certain about this, whether he was in the first group, or in our group, but at Park Station we divided and Kinela was the one leading our own group.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I think is the word `Amabutho' in the course of your evidence, meaning warrior.   Is that right?  Warriors?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, yes warriors.

MR TIPP: And did you and your co-marchers view yourselves as warriors on that day?

MR NGOBESE: When we talk about people in KwaZulu, or men in KwaZulu, women say we are warriors;  so we were warriors at the time.  We referred to ourselves as warriors.

MR TIPP: And were you in time that day, in order to fight for the rights of your King?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, we were going to listen as to how far the whole thing had progressed.

MR TIPP: Did you come to town that day in order to show the people of Johannesburg and others in  South Africa that you were a mighty force, to be reckoned with?

MR NGOBESE: No, I don't think it was like that, but as a Zulu nation, we were going to convene there to listen to the King and know exactly how far things had gone in as far as him continuing being a king.

MR TIPP: You are a member of the IFP?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is true.

MR TIPP: Did you see your interests as one of the Amabutho, as being the same as the interests of the IFP on that day?

MR NGOBESE: I don't quite understand your question.   Please repeat it.

MR TIPP: Did you have the view on that day that the concerns of the King and the Amabutho, including yourself, were the same as the concern of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR NGOBESE: I won't comment on that because that day we were all Zulus.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I am going to ask you please to assist us with your comment.   You were a member of the IFP.   You were a member of the Zulu Amabutho.   Did you have the same concerns on that day?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is so.

MR TIPP: You were aware that the IFP had played a role in the organising of that entire event, including the rally at Library Gardens?

MR NGOBESE: I am not saying that.

MR TIPP: Did you never hear that the IFP had played a role in organising the events of that day?

MR NGOBESE: As a person usually attends IFP meetings and Zulu IFP's, I don't think IFP had planned this.   I never heard in the previous meeting anything to that effect.