Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

UNKNOWN: Sir, I'm not asking you about it.  Please, you signed this affidavit this morning, so it's got nothing to do with what happened in the court.  And this morning you told us under oath that it was on the 23rd of February.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that's so, I calculated from the date when Mr Lucky August was attacked a as it was said that he was attacked on the 25th of February 1993.

UNKNOWN: Okay then two days before he was attacked, you had a meeting with the regional offices.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Your question is not clear sir, will you please repeat?

UNKNOWN: Did you have a meeting with the regional offices of the PAC two days before you attacked Mr August?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: No we were never in a meeting, we were just reporting by phone, we would phone from the office and report to their office.  They were not coming to us and held meetings.

UNKNOWN: So you called them by phone, did you call them two days before the attack on Mr August?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: To whom did you speak?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: We did not ask his name, he was a comrade who was at the reception.  We asked for the chairman of the region, he said he was not there and we wanted to know who else was in the office and he referred us to Mr Mpondo.  We reported the matter and we wanted him to tell REC about what was happening.

UNKNOWN: And what instructions did you get?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He told us that the comrades are scattered all over and they're busy.  The executive meeting will actually take time as they usually hold meetings once a month and the meeting was already past at the time, therefore we were to protect ourselves if these comrades were attacking us because each time they have nothing to do, if they don't have programmes they normally keep themselves busy by attacking us.  That is something that they used to do, they were not doing that for the very first time.

UNKNOWN: Right.  That very evening when you attacked Mr August, there was no attack on you or your comrades, was there?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: There were a lot of people whose houses where burnt, their furniture and everything, people were chased away from their homes.

UNKNOWN: On that very day, is that correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Before the incident to that time they would come from time to time.

UNKNOWN: Right, now during that week you were armed with an AK47.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: During this time I would usually carry a pistol ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the answer.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Okay, during the time that this happened, before the incident, I used to carry a pistol, a Tokarev then after the members of the community were organised to attack the PAC members from house to house, I then carried an AK47 but we knew that we were not going to just hit anyone, we were going to hit the leaders that were the perpetrators of all this or the people that organised this whole thing.

UNKNOWN: On the day when you attacked Mr August, was it the same day when the ANC attacked Mr Tiyo's house?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: We protected ourselves from Mr August by attacking him between seven and eight.  After that I left with my comrades with the pistol that I was carrying to look for his comrades, we didn't find them. We came back at about ten at night, I then took an AK47, went to the township, tried to find them but we didn't find them. It was a Saturday that very same night.

UNKNOWN: Sir, I'm only asking you one question.  That day when you attacked - you attacked him the Saturday evening, is that correct?  You attacked Mr August Saturday evening?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: When did they attack or march to Mr Tiyo's house?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Sunday morning when they went to attack Tamsangqa Duma's house as well.

UNKNOWN: That was after you attacked Mr August?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Please listen to me carefully, I want to explain.  On the Friday I shot this man who's hand is raised at the back, I shot him in the stomach, on the Friday I was with three of my comrades.  On Saturday I attacked Lucky August by hitting him with a pick handle.  I then went to Mr Tiyo and reported that I attacked Mr August, that he must expect anything.  I didn't go on Saturday to him.  We went past his house, we said that we were looking for his leaders that had run away, we can't find them.  The comrade with the black jacket, they said that he'd run away, he'd gone to the rural areas.  We didn't find them in their houses, their houses were locked but they left their cars behind.  On the Sunday they got up in the morning an they went to attack Tamsangqa Duma's house.  I had already got a report that my subordinates who were from different kinds of townships found that priest and his comrade Mqoto. They reported to me, they found them and they shot them.  They came to report to me because they were my subordinates and I got to know this.

UNKNOWN: Sir, I understand what you're - I don't know what you're trying to answer because I'm not trying to get you into a corner, I'm looking at your affidavit.  In paragraph 13 you say,
"On the 26th of February 1996 a mob of ANC-aligned structures who were singing went to Tiyo's house who was a PAC member with the intention of attacking him."
That's what I'm asking you about, I'm not trying to trick you.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Perhaps you're not understanding me sir, I was trying to tell you what happened the weekend.  This Tiyo incident was on the Sunday.  I wanted to tell you what happened before Mr Tiyo was attacked on the Sunday.

UNKNOWN: Right.  We've heard that, you told me what happened on the Sunday, but on that Sunday you were carrying an AK47, is that correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.  It was not the first time I had an AK47, that's what I'm trying to say to you because the Saturday night I took my AK47.

UNKNOWN: At what time on Saturday night?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: It was at night.

UNKNOWN: After you'd hit Mr August?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: After we had attacked Mr August.

UNKNOWN: And before that you carried a Makeroff pistol?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.   When we went to the township to find his comrades after we had hit him or attacked him.

UNKNOWN: Did you carry a Makeroff pistol before the Saturday?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: No.

UNKNOWN: Now when you ambushed Mr August and wanted to kill him, why didn't you take the AK and shoot him with the AK?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I'm going to say this first ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please start again?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: The teachers took them to a community hall, they decided or reached a conclusion because we were not part of the meeting, we heard after that what they decided.  They were thinking about Mr Mhlapo who was a teacher at the school.  He was a chairman of the PAC.  Diesel and I, I had a Makeroff pistol, Diesel had a 9mm.  We went there and they sang around Mr Mhlapo's house but they didn't do anything.  I got there and I said this door must be open so that they could see, if they did anything they could see if we were there. They then decided to leave then threw a stone, we got out and we stood at the door and they ran off but when we were attacking Lucky August I didn't have it with me, I had it with me after we had attacked him to look for his comrades, that was before 10 o'clock.  When we didn't find them we went back to the base, that's when I took my AK47 and left again.

UNKNOWN: Okay now you were struggling for freedom at that stage to liberate the black people of South Africa from the oppressive white government, is that correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Also fighting the same struggle?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Now what do you want to achieve by attacking your own brothers in this political struggle?