Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: Last time we were here at the beginning of August this matter was called and postponed.  At that stage we did put ourselves on record but I'd, notwithstanding that, like to again just introduce the panel that will be hearing this matter.
	On the extreme right is Advocate Sigodi, she is from the Eastern Cape, Port Elizabeth.  On my immediate right is Advocate Motata who is a member of the Bar in Johannesburg.  On my left is Advocate Bosman, who is from the Cape and I am Selwyn Miller, also from the Eastern Cape, a Judge in the Transkei Division of the High Court.
	I'd also like to ask the legal representatives, once again to place themselves on record and any other persons who wish to do so.

UNKNOWN: May it please you Mr Chairman, my surname is Hendrickse.  I represent the applicant in this matter.

MR TERREBLANCHE: ;   My name is Terreblanche, I represent the AWB.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, my name is Gerhard Van Der Berg.  I am from the Pretoria Bar and represent Mrs Uys in this application.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, J M Mpshe for the Truth Commission, in particular the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Before coming in we were informed by the representatives that we'd be starting with the showing of a video and that was also the reason for the delay and the late start, for which I apologise.  I am informed that everything is ready now, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Everything is ready.  The TV has been set and the video we are ready to kick off with.

CHAIRPERSON: And the channels.  Do you know what they are?  Channel one is on the little device, channel one is Afrikaans, channel two is English and channel three is Tswana.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, may I just put something on record before I hand over to my learned friend.  That as already informed in chambers, Advocate Johan Engelbrecht has withdrawn.  He was the representative for the AWB, and Mr Terreblanche is going to conduct the questioning and evidence when it starts on behalf of the AWB.
	And further aspect Mr Chairman, that the Chairman of the Committee will recall that the last time one of the postponed, one of the reasons for this postponement was to secure the attendance of two journalists, Mr Ray Hartley and Mr Peter de Ionne, and it was put on record that Mr Engelbrecht is to contact me and give me the particulars of the relevant journalists which then he did not do, but on my own, after I had been phoned by one of the journalists, I contacted them.  I spoke to them, I served them with the necessary notices and they were willing to come.  But I arranged with them that they be here only tomorrow.
	Now I mention this, Mr Chairman because the person who wanted them in attendance is no more in this forum, which would mean that I will have to stop their coming because I don't need them.  They are wanted by AWB, but our agreement with Mr Van Der Berg is to the effect that he may want to use them later but we can only get an indication at lunch time.  I just wanted this to be on record because I will have to inform them if we are going to cause them unnecessary if they have to come.  One is from Jo'burg, one is from Cape Town.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Hendrickse?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman and Members of the Commission.  Mr Chairman, right from the onset, as agreed with my learned friends, I would ask the Commission and my learned friends to view a certain video footage.  It is not that long.  It will set out a background to the events that led to this application.  I am calling upon the personnel to put on the video.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hendrickse.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the video, who made the video?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the video comes from the then known Bophuthatswana Television.  I'm, I don't know who actually filmed the video or who is the narrator thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hendrickse.
SHOWING OF VIDEO

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just to confirm what my learned friend has just said, I secured the video from the then Bop TV, through the director of the station.  I could assume that it was filmed by the crew that was on the scene, that day.  But I obtained them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hendrickse?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman from the onset I would like to apply for an amendment of the application form of the applicant.  The form is marked on the right top, there is a letter 1.  It is the very first page of the application form, paragraph 7a, thereof, after the words
'Constable Ndopopolese'(?)
May the following words be inserted:
'and supporter of the ANC'.
That is the amendment.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objections to this amendment?

UNKNOWN: In this issue, it was quite a surprise that this insertion is only made now.  Now they only think about it politically and now they add the insertion.  If that was the intention and the meaning from the start then it should have been there from the start.  If it was his case that he belonged to the ANC, he did not belong to the ANC if you looked at the documents so now it is the first time that he inserts it.  So it is my submission, they should not be allowed, because if it was his case, he should have said that from the start.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, and Honourable Members.  This is an application for amendment.  Amendments can be applied for at any stage and it is my submission that has ground and evidence will be presented that will show that an amendment is necessary under the circumstances.  I ask this Honourable Committee to grant amendment to the application form.  Thank you.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Hendrickse, wouldn't it be proper that we have full grounds for the amendment since there is an objection that we should sit down and make up our minds whether we allow the amendment or not.  But if you say later, you would provide evidence to support the amendment would that be the right thing to do at this juncture?

UNKNOWN: Honourable Member, it is my submission that after consultation it became clear that the applicant was indeed a supporter of the ANC.  When this form was completed, it was not included.  Before this hearing was postponed in August of this year I took it up with my learned friend who is the Leader of Evidence in this TRC.  We agreed that we will viva voce, apply for an amendment.  Under the circumstances I took it that it was not necessary to apply on paper for an amendment before hand and that is the reason why I am applying for the amendment now.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, my instructions in this case is to oppose this application.  What the applicant is doing now, his things weren't quite up to scratch and now at this application, now he is supplementing his documents and saying now I belong to the ANC and he wants to give it a political colour.  And with all respect, this amendment cannot be granted because he has only done this afterwards.  He wants to supplement his documents, and if you look at bundle A, this is the bundle that has all the affidavits, nowhere these allegations are made.  If those allegations were made in the affidavits or if the evidence was given to the TRC, then maybe one can say, I want to supplement it now, but that case was never decided on so I believe that his amendment cannot be made because he is supplementing it now.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Chairperson, I also offer an objection considering the fact that the applicant was a member of the police, of the Bophuthatswana Police and also in his documents, he says that he did what the people wanted to do and he was forced by people to do that.  He had enough time to say in those documents that he was in fact a member of the opposition party, and that is of Mr Mangope.  And so I also make objection to this.