Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

UNKNOWN: Now, you were very worried because some people thought thatyou had been responsible for the death of your grandfather. Now, your grandfatherwas the one who helped you, who looked after you, and then you left to try andcross the border. What did the - there was no court case about the death ofyour grandfather? Was there no trial, or nobody accused of killing him? ---No, there was never any court case. It was just talk, common talk, that I killedhim. It was just a rumour, and that's where it ended as a rumour.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... did he - was he shot, or was he assaulted, or knifed, or how did he meet his death?

WITNESS: Myfather was woken up in the morning. Apparently he was shot and doused with petroland set alight.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... feel badly because people thought that youwere involved?

WITNESS: Yes. Even my family, my father's family. I can't get to thembecause they always have this suspicion that I killed my grandfather.

UNKNOWN: We've heard that - and you've named a number of names. Amongstthe names that you've mentioned were those who harassed you, or arrested you,or were also - were they some who beat you up and gave you electric shocks inprison?

WITNESS: It's Nick Swanepoel and Terblanche. They were the ones who violatedme, who assaulted me and electrocuted me.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. You've had a very rough time, not onlybecause you were assaulted and beaten up, but I think the dark cloud which hashung over you about your grandfather, and we will do what we can to try andhelp. But my colleagues may have other questions, so I am going to ask if theywould like to ask any more.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Olifant, you,like others who have given statements and who will give testimony tomorrow,have talked about Fountain, where the Security Branch had their headquarters.Was it at Fountain that you were tortured by means of electric shocks and beatings?You did mention another place in Bloemfontein, Ramkraal.

WITNESS: Yes, from Ladybrandthey took us to Ramkraal. At Ramkraal that's where they just keep people. It'snot a prison, it's not a police station. From there we were taken to Fountain.That is  the Special Branch. That's the office of the Special Branch.We were taken there. That's where we were tortured. But they kept on torturingus from Ladybrand up to here. That is the soldiers now who were doing the torturing.

MR LYSTER: How did they administer electric shocks to you?

WITNESS: What theydid, they electrocuted my private parts. The other one switched on the light.The other one kept on asking, "Do you want to tell us where Steve is?" I kepton telling them that I didn't know where Steve was. They kept on electrocutingme, telling me that I should tell the truth, until such time that I lost consciousness.They were using these electric shocks. They were also strangling me with a towel.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... a towel round your throat, or was it a bagover your head?

WITNESS: They were actually strangling me. The other one was holdingone end of the towel and the other one was holding the other end of the towel,and each one was pulling to different sides. That's when I lost consciousness.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you, Sir. Mr Olifant, it would appearthat what is more hurtful is the accusation that you murdered your grandfather,even more than the tortures you received in those police stations. You justmade one statement that it is suspected that the person who said that you killedyour grandfather is the one who killed him. Can you say something more aboutthat?

WITNESS: I didn't hear that quite well. Could you kindly repeat it.

KHOZA MGOJO: In your statement, your narrative, you said that it is suspectedthat the person who said that you killed your  /grandfather

KHOZA MGOJO: grandfather is the one who killed him. Is that correct?

KHOZA MGOJO: --- That was a rumour that was circulating at that time I wasbeing tortured, but I got it thereafter that the actual person who was involvedwas the person I was related to. He was pointed out, but I didn't have any informationas far as that was concerned. I only was told that later, because when my grandfatherdied I was arrested, I was in custody. I was in custody at that time. We werearrested on the 6th, so I wasn't there when he died. So that person was tellingme - the one who was torturing me told me that he was going to kill me likemy grandfather. At that time I didn't know what he was referring to. I onlydiscovered it later on.

KHOZA MGOJO: The last question. I am just going around this thing. You havesaid in your statement that some of your Comrades became State witnesses. Itmeans that they were working against you now. Do you think that maybe they arethe ones who spread this rumour that you killed your grandfather?

WITNESS: I don'tthink it's them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Olifant, we have already expressed oursympathy to you for the treatment you have received. I hope very much that yourfamily will become re-united, that they will accept you back, and that theywill put behind you and behind them this ugly rumour that has caused you somuch pain. We, on our side, will do everything we can to try and see what wecan find out about that, and thank you again for coming, and may God empoweryou. Thank you.

WITNESS: Thank you, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Motsaneng, good afternoon. Can you hearme all right?

DIKALEDI ADELAIDE MOTSANENG: Yes, I can hear you.

UNKNOWN: That's good. Sometimes we have trouble withthe headphones, but today it looks as though we're really doing very well indeed.Thank you so much for coming. You have waited a long time today, and there arestill others who are waiting, so we would like you to tell your story and whathappened - and particularly what happened to your son, Ernest. But before youdo that I would like you to please stand for the taking of the oath.

DIKALEDI ADELAIDE MOTSANENG: (Sworn, States)

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Thereare so many from this part of the world who had sons, and sometimes perhapsdaughters I suppose, or fathers, or mothers, who went into exile, and thereseems to be such a mystery surrounding some of their journeys, and indeed theirdeaths. That's part of the story that you are going to tell, and Mr Ilan Laxis going to guide you now. Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Motsaneng, for coming to talkto us this afternoon. Before I take you through the story could you just confirm- your son was born on the 1st of March 1962, is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, that'scorrect.

MR LAX: Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about your familyand where you're from?