Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MR VISSER: He was released.  Yes.  Were they holding you in 1987 to 1988?  Was there a trial, I'm sorry, was there a trial that took place?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I was charged and there was a trial and I was acquitted.

MR VISSER: And you were acquitted.  I see.  At that trial, did that deal with the presence of weapons in the Inanda house of Blessing Ninela, or not?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Right.  And did it deal with the fact that there was a printing press?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the fact that there were guerillas that were sheltered there?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And how many people were charged in that trial with you?  Yourself and how many others?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Myself and my brother, Blessing Ngobese.

MR VISSER: Yes.  What happened to Blessing Ngobese?  Was he also acquitted?

SEBELO NGOBESE: He was sentenced.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did that have, his sentence, have anything to do with the weapons or the guerillas or the printing press at the Inanda house?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he sentenced for?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I think it was because his handwriting was in many documents which we used to send to Swaziland and the police got hold of those documents, I don't know how, but his handwriting was in those documents.

MR VISSER: When you knew about the four guerillas, you say during that period of time they were in the house in Inanda you, I'm not certain what you're saying, did you not visit the house at all while the guerillas were there, is that what you're saying?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, I didn't go in that house at all.

MR VISSER: But you wouldn't know whether Blessing Ninela was still staying at that house, would you, at that time?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes, it is true, I wouldn't know because I didn't go, but what I knew is that Sefiso was staying there, not Blessing.

MR VISSER: Yes, but that's because of what Sefiso told you, not so?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now, lastly Sir, by the same token, you would not know what the activities of Mr Blessing Ninela were, apart from where you had contact with him in SAWU, not so?  Whatever else he did you didn't know about?

SEBELO NGOBESE: If he was involved, I would have known from Sefiso. Sefiso was going to tell me and myself, because I was also part of the unit, I would have known if he was part of the unit.  I never knew that he was.

MR VISSER: You already stated that as far as you're concerned, Blessing Ninela was not part of your unit.  I understand that.  I'm asking you, you wouldn't have personal knowledge of the other activities of Mr Blessing Ninela, that's what I'm asking you.

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes, it's true.

MR VISSER: You wouldn't know where he got hold of a limpet mine which he trained other people with, would you?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I don't believe that.  I don't believe that Blessing was ever, or ever got hold of a limpet mine.  I met Blessing in Pinetown, he never mentioned anything like that.  He would have told me.

MR VISSER: Alright we can argue that because there are statements in papers before us that Blessing in fact did have a limpet mine and that he gave it to the two Bhengu brothers and told them how to use it.  Are you denying that?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I believe that the police have fabricated some of the stories about Blessing.

MR VISSER: I see, so you're saying, is that your evidence here under oath?  That is your belief based on what you know, that the police fabricated the story that Blessing was in possession of a limpet mine and that he handed it to the Bhengu brothers, is that what you're saying?

SEBELO NGOBESE: It is new to me and also I didn't know that Blessing was killed, or died and as far as I've known Blessing he was never a military person.  Then I don't know how he can get involved with limpet mines.

MR VISSER: That's not what I asked you Sir, I asked you whether it is your evidence that it is your belief that the police fabricated this whole story of the limpet mine that was in possession of Blessing and that he handed to the Bhengu brothers.   That's my question.

SEBELO NGOBESE: This is what I found from this hearing that Blessing was found with a limpet mine.  I don't know Blessing as someone who has been involved with limpet mines.

MR VISSER: So you won't answer the question.  Alright.  I'll argue it Chairperson.  And whether Blessing was involved with any other ANC cells or not, you would also not have any personal knowledge about?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes, I wouldn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Other cells.  You're talking about military activities in those cells?

MR VISSER: Well, ANC cells.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he says that as far as he's concerned Blessing was never a military person.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's his knowledge.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson.  He also said that Blessing was never a member of his cell.

MR LAX: But his cell wasn't a military cell.

MR VISSER: That's the point.  That's the point.  That's why I didn't talk about a military cell, I talk about other ANC cells, Chairperson.  It's wider than just a military cell and he says he wouldn't know.  Would you bear with me just a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR VISSER: No further questions thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rorich?

MR RORICH: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RORICH

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS GABRIEL: No re-examination Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GABRIEL

MR LAX: Mr Ngobese, did you remain, after, as I understand it, when did you trial finish?  When did your trial finish?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I think it was in August 1988 when Blessing Ngobese was convicted.

MR LAX: And  you were in custody then from 1987 until the end of your trial?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MR LAX: So, basically you didn't have anything to do with Blessing Ninela from 1987 and you never saw him again until after, well you didn't see him because he'd disappeared by then?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair, the next witness we wish to call is Senzo Bhengu and his statement appears at bundle 2, page 60.

HUMPHREY SENZO BHENGU: (sworn states)

MS GABRIEL: Mr Bhengu...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Bhengu, you can adjust those headphones by pushing the headphone up into the thing on your head and that will make you more comfortable.  Is that more comfortable?

HUMPHREY SENZO BHENGU: It's okay.

MS GABRIEL: Mr Bhengu, I'm going to ask you very specific questions and I'm going to ask you very short questions because there's just one area that we need to know about.  In the evidence yesterday we heard information that Blessing Ninela was somehow implicated with an explosion at which your brother was killed and at which you were injured.  Can you help the Committee by describing to us how these events occurred and what your relationship was with Mr Ninela at that time?

HUMPHREY SENZO BHENGU: I was born in the Ncolosi area in 1968 and that is where I grew up.  I knew Blessing as a member of the community and as time progressed there was friction between the UDF and the Inkatha Freedom Party at the time.  One day there was a wedding ceremony at the Thembu house.  As preparation was underway for the wedding we were attacked by Inkatha members.  They were from the Macumini area and the Bhengu home.
	We would occasionally discuss matters with Mr Ninela.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell Ninela that you had been attacked by IFP members?

HUMPHREY SENZO BHENGU: I am still relating the story.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't want you to relate the story, I want you to answer questions please.  You are here to answer questions you see and I wish you'd be specific.  So as a result of the attack on you, did you tell Blessing about it?