Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I said so, but I would request you to take note that in my application for amnesty there is a lot of things that were written there because of lack of knowledge.

JUDGE WILSON: This is not lack of knowledge, this is very clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it his handwriting?

JUDGE WILSON: Did you write out the form yourself or did somebody write it for you?

DITINI THYIDO: I wrote the form myself.

JUDGE WILSON: And I will read on to what you went on to say, you've now started off saying we were on our way to the meeting with one of the Committee members who was collecting money to buy firearms, there is nothing complicated about that, is there?

DITINI THYIDO: I am actually referring to Mr Mpisane because he was the one who was a Committee member responsible for collecting money.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, and you said you were on your way to a meeting with him, you then went on to say as we were walking one of the Committee members unexpectedly shot at us.  That is what you were putting down yourself in your amnesty application.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt.  May I suggest the applicant be given sight, he doesn't have it in front of him, I think he should mark it there, it is this portion here.

JUDGE WILSON: Look at page 3.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: Look at page 3, at the top of the page you see IV, "Sasi, Sianalanga Umsweni", do you see that?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I can see sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you said as we were walking, one of the Committee members unexpectedly shot at us.

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I can see.

JUDGE WILSON: The Committee member we were with, ran away.  Correct?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I can see sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And then you go on to say my colleague Mr Mtsikwazi fired back and injured the attacker.

DITINI THYIDO: I can't see actually where you are reading.  I can't see it on this current page here.  I can't see that one, that I said I shot back to the attacker.

JUDGE WILSON: It didn't say you did, it said Mr Mtsikwazi fired back and injured the attacker.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can I be of assistance Mr Thyido.  You are going to get what Judge Wilson is referring to on page number 3.  If you page through your application form you will see on top of the page it said page number 3, on top there, there is the details and the type of action and the details.
	In the middle of that paragraph you say they shot at us unexpectedly, my colleague Mr Mtsikwazi shot back and injured the attacker, the one that we are supposed to discuss with, that was Mr Mpisane.  That is what you wrote.
	I am trying to read as you have written, can you hear now?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I can hear.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you hear, do you understand that?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you please go on responding to the question?

DITINI THYIDO: The question is now saying that the person who was attacking was shot, it is not like that, it is Mr Mpisane who shot at my colleague.
	Or the Committee member that I am referring to is Mr Mpisane that was in our company.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: Who shot at you?  You said - no they didn't say unknown, one of our Committee members unexpectedly shot at us is the interpretation.  Is that a correct interpretation?
	You said in your amnesty application that one of your Committee members unexpectedly shot at you?

DITINI THYIDO: Can I please read this paragraph, can you please allow me to read this paragraph, because what you are saying is not what is written here in this text.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, read it out.

DITINI THYIDO: The other Committee members came to us and shot at us unexpectedly, that is what is written here.

JUDGE WILSON: Other Committee members came to you and shot at you unexpectedly, is that what is written?  Is that what is written there?
	Other Committee members came and shot at us unexpectedly, that is what you have just read out as I understand it.

DITINI THYIDO: Your Honour, I am not sure whether I am not being articulate, but I want to read all this part.  Please allow me, perhaps we will get clarity.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment and let him familiarise himself with his statement.  That might save a lot of time.

JUDGE WILSON: I would ask whether those responsible for the interpretation today would assist our evidence leader in going through what we have been given as a translation of what is written in the application and making any corrections that need to be done.
	Would you be prepared to do that?  Thank you, I would be obliged.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are we ready to proceed?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, the translators during the short adjournment were kind enough to assist and if one goes to paragraph 9(a)(4) on page 7 of your bundle, it should read as follows:  some Committee members came unexpectedly and shot at us.

JUDGE WILSON: Where does that come in?  Does it say we were on our way to the meeting with one of the Committee ...

MR BRINK: This is the translation of that sub-paragraph which was being given to me.   Some Committee members came unexpectedly and shot at us while walking with this Committee member, Mr Mpisane and he ran away.  Mr colleague Mr Mtsikwazi ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Brink, we are taking down what you are reading.

CHAIRPERSON: We are trying to take down what you are reading please.

MR BRINK: Some Committee members came unexpectedly and shot at us while walking with this Committee member, Mr Mpisane and he ran away.   My colleague Mr Mtsikwazi shot back and injured the Committee member that we were supposed to discuss with (in a meeting) that is Mr Mpisane.
	And then Mr Chairman, you will note that paragraph 10(d) was omitted from this translation for some reason, but it should read as follows.  I beg your pardon, 10(c), I beg your pardon 10(c).  If you delete 10(c) and substitute the following "when fighting for people's rights you do not expect a financial gain".  May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Completely different from the present 10(c) is it?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR BRINK: 10(d) which was not translated reads as follows: "yes, it was great because my colleagues were going to infiltrate the police force so that the people would be protected and the police would then serve the community."
	Those are the ...

JUDGE WILSON: I am filled with anxiety, Mr Brink, are we likely to face the same problems when we come to the next applicant's amnesty application?

MR BRINK: I sincerely hope not.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: They don't indicate who has done the interpretation?

MR BRINK: The interpretation is - they do the interpretation is manuscript which are then sent to the secretaries for typing.

JUDGE WILSON: Now we have also in the papers before  us on page 9 another statement.  Can you tell us where this comes from?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, this appears to be more or less a repetition of 9(a)(4), but where the second paragraph comes in, there is no indication.  The first paragraph appears to be a variation of 9(a)(4).

JUDGE WILSON: It might have been another translation?

MR BRINK: It may have been another translation.

JUDGE WILSON: It may have been another translation, it doesn't purport to be another statement made by the applicant?

MR BRINK: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathana?

ADV MATHANA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what has been read out by Mr Brink, that that is now a correct translation of what the applicant said in his application form?

ADV MATHANA: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  If you will please listen now what you in fact said in your application form was some Committee members came unexpectedly and shot at us while walking with this Committee member, Mr Mpisane and he ran away.