Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose the - you are said to be saying in your statement you were going to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson and then you single out the SDUs.  Now what I want to find out is we know that you are going to kill the SDUs because you've told us they were the ones who were responsible for attacking the hostel residents.  Now how were the residents of Boipatong going to be taught a lesson?

MR MAZIBUKO: The residents of Boipatong would also know, more especially the parents, they would know that members of the SDU are the people who are killing the hostel dwellers because they will come with a kidnapped person and burn him alive.  So they would know that when the SDU members have kidnapped an IFP member then the IFP will also revenge by killing somebody that they come across.

CHAIRPERSON: And the somebody that they will be coming across, would that include women and children?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that would included children and women, only the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, continue.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	The only people that you intended to kill were SDU members and you've told the Committee that by that you understand young men in the township, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, I was referring to young men who were residents in the township.

MR BERGER: But what you say and what all of your co-applicants besides Mr Victor Mthembu say in this document which has been annexed to each and every one of your applications, is that specifically you wanted to neutralise the Self Defence Units, the young men but you also wanted to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson.  So your teaching of a lesson went beyond the killing of SDU members.
	My question to you is, how were you going to teach the residents a lesson, what were you going to do to teach the residents a lesson?  Do you understand my question?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Please answer it.

MR MAZIBUKO: The residents of Boipatong would learn that when they see the members of the SDU kidnapping and burning one of the IFP members, they should reprimand, they should reprimand them.   Although I know that they would not listen to their parents, but to a certain extent parents would be able to reprimand the members of the SDU.

MR BERGER: So that what would happen?  The parents would reprimand the SDU members because the parents feared that something would happen, what is it that the parents would fear which would make them reprimand the SDU members?

MR MAZIBUKO: They would fear that maybe people would be killed, innocent people would be killed.

MR BERGER: Precisely.  That is exactly the lesson you wanted to teach the residents of Boipatong, that if they did not keep the SDU members in check, if they did not reprimand them then innocent people would be killed.    We agree, am I right, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was not specifically saying innocent people would be killed but they would know, that if one IFP member is killed they would know that the same thing that happen to Boipatong will happen again and people will lose their properties as it has happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put it to you this way, the suggestion is this that the manner in which the people of Boipatong were to be taught a lesson was to attack them and kill them so that in future they know that if they don't control the SDUs, they will again be attacked.  Do you understand that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And what do you say to that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I agree with what you have already said but I also emphasise the fact that we are not specifically going to kill women or the parents.  I don't want to say that the parents would be killed simply because SDU members were killing the members of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I rephrase the question?  What actions were going to be taken against the resident to teach them a lesson?

MR MAZIBUKO: We'd hurt them by kidnapping members of their families, specifically the youth.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The innocent persons that you are talking about, would those be male persons who are not necessarily members of the SDUs?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that will be men who are not necessarily members of the SDU, although some of them are members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: So are we to understand that this lesson would lie in that men who are not necessarily members of the SDUs, would be attacked and killed and from that killing and attack, the residents of Boipatong in general would learn a lesson, that in future they've got to keep the SDUs in check?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would this have included elderly men?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that would not include old men.  I'm referring to men who are still able to work for themselves, not old men.

CHAIRPERSON: Well because - it was at night, was it not?

MR MAZIBUKO: May you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: It was at night when this attack was launched?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it was at night.

CHAIRPERSON: How was it going to be possible to identify who of the men can still work for themselves so as in order to identify those who had to be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: I think an old man - it's easy to recognise an old man, it is easy to make a difference between a man who can work for himself and an old man.  I can recognise the difference between a man and an old man.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, how had you, and when I say you I mean you in the plural, being intimidated by the residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: To tell the truth, residents of Boipatong, I was never told that the people of Boipatong were intimidating us, I never heard of that.  My problem is with the ANC.  I never had a problem with the people of Boipatong.
	What resulted in Boipatong being attacked, it is because most of the members of the ANC were residing in Boipatong and so we thought that if we attack the members of the ANC who was staying in Boipatong as the nearest place, that would reach other members of the ANC in other townships.

MR BERGER: So you recognised, you all recognised that in attacking Boipatong and killing people in Boipatong you would kill people who were not ANC members but in the main you get ANC members, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: When we were given instructions at the stadium, we were told that we are going to attack SDUs.  So according to me I don't think there is any person who can guard in the township who is not a member of the ANC.  So they were guarding the township against the IFP members.

MR BERGER: You see if you look at the bottom of page 110, just before paragraph 10(b), there is a paragraph which reads as follows
"A warning was also given to ANC supporters not to support the Self Defence Units.  The idea was to intimidate the residents of Boipatong just as they had intimated us."
Now you're not talking about the Self Defence Units here, you're talking about the residents of Boipatong who had intimidated you, you being the residents of KwaMadala.  How had you the residents of KwaMadala been intimidated by the residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: As hostel resident who enters the township in Boipatong and being seen by one of the residents in Boipatong, his life would be in danger.  If only one person would see that you come from KwaMadala hostel, then your life would be in danger.  It will be through a miracle, through God's help that you would manage to escape and go back to the hostel.

MR BERGER: So the intimidation from the residents of Boipatong included threats of death and death itself?

MR MAZIBUKO: During those days it was not possible that if they catch you as a member of the IFP you'll come back alive.  In most cases they would kill you. It will be through a miracle that you go to a hospital.