Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

ADV BOOYENS: (continued)  Thank you Mr Chairman, page 14 of the application, paragraph 11.  On Tuesday, the 6th of September 1977, you received instructions from Major Snyman to fetch Biko at the Walmer police station and to take him to the Sanlam Building for interrogation.  Please continue from there, you were accompanied by Captain Siebert and Warrant Officer Marx?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Biko was then taken to the Sanlam Building, please take it from there and tell the Chairperson and the other members of the panel what happened there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, he was handcuffed from Walmer police station.  We accompanied him, myself, Captain Siebert and Warrant Officer Marx.
	He was taken to the Sanlam Building to the interrogation room, and he immediately sat down on a chair in this office.  At that stage, what I can recall is that Captain Siebert told him you will sit down when we tell you to do so, and you are here in our area, and I will tell you when to sit.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the same office or room where Mr Jones had been interrogated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: I wanted to ask you the same question, so please continue.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Afterwards, Mr Biko got up, I removed his handcuffs on the instruction of Siebert and Major Snyman arrived there and the interrogation then took place conducted by Mr Siebert.
	My observation at that stage was that Mr Biko was arrogant, aggressive and he didn't answer the questions at all, these were the questions put to him by Siebert.
	And on my own observation I can say that the questions put to him, were in my view, not relevant.  He immediately realised, Mr Biko immediately realised from the type of questions put to him, that Captain Siebert had absolutely no information about him.
	My office was next to this interrogation room, and in the door, I saw Warrant Officer Beneke taking up position.  Siebert then confronted him at some point with this pamphlet, this is the pamphlet in Annexure 7.  Biko once again got down, sat down on the chair.

ADV BOOYENS: I think, please use the names Mr Niewoudt, who is the he who sat down?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The deceased, Mr Biko, once again sat down on the chair.  Mr Siebert actually got annoyed and grabbed him by the chest and pulled him to his feet.  Mr Biko then grabbed the chair and pushed it forwards in the direction of Mr Siebert and he also lunged at Mr Siebert with his fist, but I don't think the blow actually hit.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for all these people to be present during the interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Marx and myself had information about black power or black consciousness activities and Siebert and Snyman weren't quite so familiar with black affairs and that was the one reason Mr Chairperson.
	And it was also to enable us to question him during a routine interrogation by people, there is no point in bringing in other people to start questioning him and so on.  It was just a method.

CHAIRPERSON: To achieve what exactly?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: To gather the information from him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ADV BOOYENS: The purpose of confronting him with the issue of the pamphlet was to ultimately charge him with that and to neutralise his involvement in the unrest.
	Siebert had to admonish him on several occasions, because he simply refused to answer any questions.

ADV BOOYENS: You said that Mr Biko pushed the chair in the direction of Mr Siebert, and aimed a blow at him, you are not sure if it actually hit.  What happened then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Beneke who was in the door leading to the next office, then came charging towards Mr Biko and he tackled him by means of a rugby tackle and he connected with him in the stomach area and they landed up against the wall.  Mr Biko resisted quite severely and several blows were aimed at each other, and efforts were made to restrain him, but they weren't successful, nobody could actually grab hold of him.

CHAIRPERSON: How many policemen were present when this happened?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: May I just explain, at some stage Mr Marx had left the office and when Mr Beneke came in, it was only myself, Mr Beneke who had just joined in and Snyman and Siebert.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were four of you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  I couldn't manage to grab hold of him and I then grabbed the piece of hose, cut off hose and I hit Mr Biko several blows and that immediately stopped him in his tracks and he turned towards me.
	And then Siebert and Beneke then had the opportunity to grab him.  I then joined in and I think at that stage Mr Marx had also joined in.  We then moved, we grabbed Mr Biko and we struggled and as a result of our momentum, Mr Biko's head hit the wall.   He fell onto the floor, and at that stage he seemed to me to be confused and dazed.
	He lay up against the wall.

ADV BOOYENS: I beg your pardon, please just give us a better description.   You say he was laying against the wall, was he still on his feet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he was sitting.

ADV BOOYENS: Continue.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: After a while Siebert gave me the order to handcuff him and also to cuff his feet.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that whilst he was sitting there against the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, correct.  After a while when he recovered, Siebert told me to chain him to the bars of the security gate with his hands in an outstretched position.  Mr Beneke and I lifted him up from the floor, and we cuffed his hands by means of two sets of handcuffs and his hands were cuffed on either side of his body.  The bars were horizontal and we cuffed him to these and the leg irons or footcuffs were also attached to these bars and that is the position in which we cuffed him, he was in a standing position.

ADV BOOYENS: What was the position of his arms, were the arms stretched on either side of his body?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: At what height?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: At shoulder height.

ADV BOOYENS: The leg irons were woven through the bars of the security gate?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This banging of his head against the wall, was it a hard blow?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would say it was a hard blow, because if you take into consideration what his weight was, Mr Biko was a fairly well-built man and added to that, our weight and the momentum of that, that means it must have been a considerable impact.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not as a result of that surprised by the fact that he was possibly unconscious?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he seemed to me almost like a boxer that had been knocked out, but he was not totally unconscious to the point that he didn't know what was going on around him.

CHAIRPERSON: He would have been counted out on his feet, it would have been a knock out?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he seemed very dazed, very confused.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason why you and somebody else had to actually lift him up onto his feet just before you cuffed him to the bars?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He couldn't get up himself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I think that he probably would have been able to get up himself, but we lifted him up to be able to hold him in that position.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you just ask him to get up?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know you didn't, but I am asking you why not, isn't it because he was unconscious?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is possible, but I would rather have said that he had showed some reaction, that is how I interpreted it at that stage, and that he might once again resort to violence.