Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MR RICHARD: Do you dispute her statement in that regard?

MR DEHAL: Sorry, I think he's answered that, he doesn't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's said he doesn't know anything about it.  I suppose the answer would be, he can neither dispute nor agree with it.

MR RICHARD: ....(indistinct) aspect.  And we turn to the Parade Hotel/Magoo's/Why Not/Garfunkel's incident.  Now, did you ever go on any reconnaissance exercises with Mr McBride?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Sir, you asked me about Why Not and Magoo's and now you're asking me did I go on any reconnaissance with Mr McBride.  Are you referring to the Magoo's incident?

MR RICHARD: Did you go on any reconnaissance exercises ever with Mr McBride, prior to 14th of June 1986?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't recall when, but I did go on reconnaissance with Mr McBride.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go on those exercises?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We went to quite a few places, looking at substations and oil pipes and water pipes.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever conduct a reconnaissance of any police or military establishments with Mr McBride or alone?

JUDGE PILLAY: Did you go to the Natal Command?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not go to the Natal Command.

JUDGE PILLAY: Did you participate in reconnaissance of the Why Not bar?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, Judge.

MR RICHARD: Until the evening of the 14th of June 1986, was the topic of a car bomb ever the subject matter of any conversation between you and anyone else?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, we turn to page 6 of your statement handed in this morning, paragraph 2.  Where were you when Mr McBride came to see you that morning?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Are you finished asking the question?

MR RICHARD: Yes.  The paragraph ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In paragraph 2 you say
"On the morning of the Magoo's incident, comrade Robert came to see me."
The question is, where were you when he came to see you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was at home.

MR RICHARD: At what time in the morning was that.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember the exact time of the morning.

MR RICHARD: Late morning or?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was early in the morning.

MR RICHARD: Now, did he ask you to have anything with you or to make any preparations for what was going to happen that evening or afternoon?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: He just asked me to make myself available that evening.

MR RICHARD: What time did he come and pick you up that evening?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't recall the exact time, but it was after, it was dark when he came to see me.

MR RICHARD: Long after dark, shortly after dark?

JUDGE PILLAY: You say that he said you must keep yourself available at about 7pm that night, was it around there or after that or before that, that he came to fetch you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Ja, he came around about that time.

MR RICHARD: Now, at paragraph 3 you describe a journey into town.  Now at that stage did you know where Ms Narkedien was?  As you were driving into town.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Who was driving the car?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Which car are you referring to?

MR RICHARD: The car that you were travelling in with Mr McBride.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Mr McBride was driving the car.

MR RICHARD: Now, in the second sentence you state
"As we drove over the bump, Robert explained to me that there were explosives in the boot of the car."
Did he explain to you what sort of explosives?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, he did not go into detail, he just said to me there's explosives in the boot.

MR RICHARD: Did you know how much?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Now, at the Hyperama House and Home, you stopped and then at that stage did you become aware of where Greta's car was?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I was not aware at that stage.

MR RICHARD: When did you become aware that she was around?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: When comrade McBride told me we must get out of the car and walk down to Greta's car.  That's when I realised Greta was in the vicinity.

MR RICHARD: How far away from where you parked was Greta's car?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember how far away we were parked.

MR RICHARD: Was it a number of car parking bays away or a block away?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'd say a number of car spaces away.

MR RICHARD: Then you say that she was instructed by Robert to drive and drive to the Marine Parade.  Did he tell her precisely where on the Marine Parade to drive to, or just to drive onto the road called the Marine Parade?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: From what I remember he just said she must drive on the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the route she took to get there?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Not exactly.  I remember we drove to the end of West Street and turned left on the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember why you turned left?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Comrade Robert had instructed her to turn left.  If I recall correctly.

MR RICHARD: Now, once on the Marine Parade, what transpired, did you travel Northwards and turn around, did you stop and start, or did you go to a specific place?  What was it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I remember comrade Robert instructing Greta when we got down to the Marine Parade, to turn left from West Street, turn left into Marine Parade and just to drive and after driving for some time he told her to turn off the Marine Parade and drove back into town.

MR RICHARD: Now do you remember how far down the Marine Parade you drove before turning back inland, left I presume it was?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I don't remember how far down the Marine Parade we drove.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you notice anything particular about the area that you drove through?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: How do you mean "particular"?

MR RICHARD: I'll rephrase and ask a slightly different question.  What did you drive past?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We drove past other cars, we drove past buildings on the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: Is it not correct that you drove past a number of tourist hotels?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: There were many hotels on the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: It's obvious if we took that road we drove past these hotels and the other buildings there.

MR RICHARD: Now, on that night, was the beachfront busy, was there a lot of traffic?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I wouldn't say it was busy.  As I mentioned, it was drizzling at the time and there wasn't a lot, I won't say there was a lot of traffic around.

MR RICHARD: But were there people around, was there traffic on the road?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, there was traffic on the road.

CHAIRPERSON: We can accept it that there would be some traffic, it was shortly after 7 o'clock on a Saturday night.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
	Then, you drove back to the Hyperama House and Home and drove back to the Marine Parade.  On the second journey, did you drive straight to a specific spot or did you drive around?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, on the second journey we drove around.

MR RICHARD: Once leaving the Hyperama House and Home, where did you go first?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We drove down to the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: And then once on the Marine Parade you say you drove around.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Drove along the Marine Parade.

MR RICHARD: For how long did you drive around the Marine Parade?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Was it five minutes or fifteen minutes or twenty minutes?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I just said I don't remember, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Was it a short or a long period?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't recall how long we drove for at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I just want to get this straight.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Lecordier.  I thought the evidence was when you'd been driving around, the three of you, you went back to where the blue Cortina was.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And then are you saying that you got in the blue Cortina and drove around?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We got into the blue Cortina and drove down to the Marine Parade.