Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: As far as possible, yes.

MR MARTINI: Now you know that Mr van Zyl testified there as well.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR MARTINI: And Mr van Zyl basically told the versions that we've heard here today, is that correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Would you agree with me that at that time, Mr van Zyl could possibly not have been regarded as a very favourable person within the organisation?

WOUTER J BASSON: Well yes, I would say that there was unhappiness, but we could do nothing about it.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Mr Basson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Eck, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR VAN ECK: Mr Basson, did you have any personal knowledge of the background of the people recruited by Mr Burger?

WOUTER J BASSON: Background?

MR VAN ECK: Yes.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, except that they had been involved along with him at Brixton Murder and Robbery, they worked there with him.  Apart from that I had no personal knowledge of their background.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any knowledge of the areas in which they were to work?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible, but I would like to think that Mr Burger, as a result of his knowledge of these people, that he did the allocations, but I don't want to deny that I perhaps was part of the planning.  I can't deny that.

MR VAN ECK: That Mr Botha for instance, as a result of his sporting activities, went overseas several times and played rugby in France and so forth, that wasn't offered?

WOUTER J BASSON: No.  Do you mean that - what is he meaning of the question?

MR VAN ECK: For Mr Botha's background, his sporting background and where he'd been in the past, that never played a role in utilising him within the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: The fact that he played rugby?  No, that had no influence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think also it was the fact that he not only played rugby and that he'd been overseas to France, playing rugby, was that a relevant factor?

WOUTER J BASSON: Oh, I understand.  I'm not aware that Mr Burger perhaps regarded that as a reason or motivation to recruit him for the organisation, I'm not aware of that fact.

MR VAN ECK: Names were given to the members, inter alia Mr Chikane and Mr Frank White were given to Mr Botha.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it's possible that - I know for a fact that the White case was given to him, but it's also possible that I gave Mr Chikane's name to him.  I can't deny it, it's possible.

MR VAN ECK: Can you remember that - you've now said that your own intelligence structure, Derek, that you obtained certain information, can you confirm or deny that computer print-outs were given to the members?

WOUTER J BASSON: I can't remember whether I specifically showed them these computer print-outs.  I remember that I made notes from the print-outs and that was for my own personal benefit and use, so that I could talk to the people based on what I had learnt from the print-outs.  If a print-out was in the possession of a person, I suppose that's the way it happened, but it wasn't done like that as a rule.

MR VAN ECK: Were you involved in any way with the placing on ice of Mr Botha?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, that was a decision of Mr Burger, perhaps in conjunction with Mr Verster.  I was part of the decision making process, but I was not involved in an executive capacity, I was purely part of the discussion.

MR VAN ECK: In respect of the bomb at the Early Learning Centre, you mentioned that temporary use was made of Mr Botha, was he inactive prior to that?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, it was in that period during which he's been placed on ice, but we simply had to make use of him because - we activated him because we had a dire need for his services.

MR VAN ECK: And then just in conclusion I'd like to show you Exhibit M, that is your diary, page 12.

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MR VAN ECK: Page 12.  There is an entry
"Weapon for Deon"
was that for Mr Botha?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that's correct.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall what weapon that was or what it was for?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Barnard and Mr Botha came to me and asked me whether there was any possibility that the organisation could help them to obtain a sidearm since after his departure from the Police he had to hand back his weapon, he had no weapon for self-defence and that he wanted to buy a weapon from State funds, and within the personnel plan of the CCB it was possible for people to purchase weapons out of State funds and with the final retrenchment all assets purchased by the State were deducted from the final settlement amount.

MR VAN ECK: Now you will probably be cross-examined about this but just in conclusion, if you go to page 19 of the same exhibit, the amount of money mentioned there, would you like to comment on that?

CHAIRPERSON: What page was that again?

MR VAN ECK: Page 19, Mr Chairman.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I looked at the amounts when it was discussed with Mr Burger and I couldn't find a specific explanation for it, except to say that perhaps for some reason the people had been paid in advance, they were paid two month's salary.  That's the only explanation I can give you.  And then the R701,40, at that stage was an operational expense which had been approved, where people would then in respect of small claims, like telephone and parking and so, social activities with other members, the people would have to use that money for those purposes rather than submit small claims.  It was seen as a project expenditure for miscellaneous disbursements, so that he didn't have to constantly bring that into reckoning.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

CHAIRPERSON: Why is it such a peculiar figure, R701,40?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I can only think that according to Defence Force regulations this amount had been calculated
 based on an amount per day times the number of days in a month.  I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished?

MR VAN ECK: I've finished, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR COETZEE: I do indeed.
	Mr Basson, were you familiar with Lafras Luitingh and his alias Louie?

WOUTER J BASSON: I knew him, he was a Co-ordinator such as myself.  In other words in the inside circle from day to day.

MR COETZEE: Did you know which members he handled?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it wasn't necessary for me to know.

MR COETZEE: Were you in any way familiar with Mr Barnard during your involvement with the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I was never aware of Mr Barnard's existence, I only came to hear of that later.

MR COETZEE: After the CCB had been, or the disbandment procedure started, did you still receive a salary?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR COETZEE: Did the other members still receive a salary, members of the CCB?  Until the final disbandment.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR COETZEE: My instruction from Mr Barnard is that he also continued to receive his salary and medical benefits until the final disbandment of the CCB.

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible, Chairperson, that it happened but I wouldn't know about that.

MR COETZEE: After that you went to the Directorate of Covert Collections, were you also aware of the fact that Mr Barnard was transferred to this Directorate of Covert Intelligence?

WOUTER J BASSON: I was never aware of his appointment there, he was not a member like myself who moved around the offices every day, so I wasn't aware of him.

MR COETZEE: Are you aware of the fact that after the bomb had - or rather, after all the revelations came to light, that there was strong government denial that Mr Barnard had ever worked for any of these Forces or worked for them previously, especially in the statements of Minister Roelf Meyer, the then Mr Roelf Meyer?

WOUTER J BASSON: I can't remember this detail.  If you put it to me, I can't deny it.