Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: Well, now there is evidence that we are not aware of.  Who is that?  Mr Motsamai?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it on the probabilities that you are putting forward, is that on both occasions it was burnt by the community?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, you know, it is a difficult thing for a man who is accused of something to say I can prove that I am not there.  All that he can do is to say, you know, I can give you facts to make it easier, if possible, for you to decide and what I know is these are things that happened.  If you want to draw from that an inference, well, we would be very pleased if you would.  If you do not, well, then if, then it is not strong enough, but it is only on that basis, yes, Mr Ngoepe, Judge Ngoepe.
	I would like to go to Nicos.  Now, here again, we have a very similar situation, do we not, because is it not true that Nicos is a wealthy business man or he was a wealthy business man at some stage.  Would you agree with that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He is not a very wealthy man like they stated to you.  He only has got a shop and a bottle store.

MR VISSER: Yes, and would you agree that it is possible that he has business associates which come from the Transvaal, from Gauteng or do you deny that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you repeat your question?  What are you saying, people from Gauteng or business associates?

MR VISSER: Of Nicos?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know that fact.

MR VISSER: All right.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Your people know that, they told that to you.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  You see, I am told by my people, as you put it, that the corpse of a young child was found next to the business premises of Mr, where Mr Nicos has his bottle store.  Do you know anything about that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Just a little about that.

MR VISSER: Did you hear ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: However, I do know just a little about that.

MR VISSER: All right.  Well, let us find out how much you know about that.  Is it the ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I just know that they found that corpse there.  I do not know who placed that corpse there.

MR VISSER: All right.  Did you hear a rumour in regard to this murder of this, I think it was a little girl, a rumour that it was a muti murder?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know that fact.

MR VISSER: And that the purpose was to sell the body of this little girl, this unfortunate little girl, to somebody in the Transvaal?  I am not trying to make a joke, I am just asking whether you heard of it, Mr Motsamai.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know that.

MR VISSER: All right.  Mr Motsamai, perhaps you know this. Was there not a time when motor vehicles with Transvaal registration plates were attacked in the Mangagaung township with stones, rocks?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That one I know.

MR VISSER: Yes, I was just going to put to you that, in fact, it happened to you, did it not?  Is it true that you once was in a vehicle, I am just looking at my notes to find the name of, with certain, Koch, you know a Koch in the security branch, Koch?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: You worked with him, he was your leader, he was your handler, he was your, what do you call it, team leader, Mr Motsamai, your team leader, was he not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Are you saying my team leader?

MR VISSER: That is what I said.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was not my team leader.

MR VISSER: Did you have a White person in the team in which you worked in the security branch, Mr ... (intervention).
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon, I think the witness also said that he has to check informers with him, that is Koch.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Did you have a White person as part of the team in the security branch where you worked?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we worked with White people, Sir.  I do not understand whether your question leads or is it a fact that you do not like Black people?

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, why do you not just stick to answering questions.  Mr Motsamai, I am told that in the security branch, for practical purposes and not because somebody disliked Black people, teams were always divided in a way that there would be at least one White person in each team.  Would you agree or disagree with that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was it the same in regard to yourself?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who was the White person in your team?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I want to say to you have focus here, all of us being Black and White, we were under a command of a certain officer.  I just to, you to focus your mind on that.  I did not go everywhere with this person.  It is not as you state.  You want to lead me to accepting that I worked with a specific person.

MR VISSER: All right.  Are you saying you did not work with a specific White person?  Is that your evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There are many that I worked with.  Willeman, Koch, a lot of them.

MR VISSER: All right and it is, is it not true that on a certain day you together with Koch were travelling in a blue Ford Husky Combi with Transvaal registration plates when you were stoned by the residents in Mangoaung?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I was driving with him.  It had the curtains on the windows.  People could not see who was driving inside.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: And they would tell you what happened afterwards.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Was the combi stoned or was it not stoned, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The combi was stoned, because of the registration plates.

MR VISSER: Thank you, that is exactly the point, and I am putting it to you that it was during the aftermath of this body of this unfortunate girl being found on the erf next to the business of Mr Nicos.  It was as a, it was just in the aftermath of that occurrence.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you, Mr.  Now, is it not true, also, that there was a certain Constable Kabuza ... (intervention).

INTERPRETER: Could you please spell that name?

MR VISSER: I am going to.  I have got it as K A B U S A.  I may be wrong with the spelling.  I am told that it is a Z by my attorney.  It is K A B U Z A.  Did you know a Constable Kabuza at any stage.  Mr Motsamai, do you have a problem?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You are still asking your questions, I am ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: No, but you are kicking with your feet all the time.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Kabuza stayed there at Nicos' place.

MR VISSER: Coetzee and Shaw, you say, gave you instructions?  I want to ask you to tell the Committee precisely what those instructions were in regard to Nicos.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The instructions were to go and burn down his house, because Nicos was a courier, a MK courier, and the Captain Kabuza, we called him Captain, knew before he stayed there and as he stayed there that Nicos had a file at the security branch offices.

MR VISSER: Well, how did you feel, well, let me ask you this first.  Is it correct that Kabuza stayed in the yard in a room behind the house of Mr Nicos?  Would that be correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And when you went to petrol bomb Nicos' house did you give any thought to what is going to happen to Mr Kabuza?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, I did not know whether Kabuza stayed there or after we attacked Mr Nicos' house.

MR VISSER: Well, it was my instructions that he stayed there before you, before you say you, before his house was attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he stay there during the attack?

MR VISSER: Indeed, Mr Chairman, at the time when the attack was there, Kabuza stayed there.