Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the question that you are being asked.    What you are being asked, you are being asked about the statement which appears in this affidavit, in this sworn statement which says this is now when you are describing your arrival at the hostel, do you understand that, in 1991 as you told us?  You say
"... at first they were suspicious of me because of my ANC background, but later accepted me ...",
	do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what I have just read back to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer, what do you say to that, is it true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true, I did explain how I came to be at the hostel from the township.  They did not trust me at the beginning, but later on they did.  When I went to the hostel, they did not trust me at first, but later on they accepted me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you why they didn't trust you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they did.  They said some people come to the hostel for information, so they wanted to make sure, they wanted to be certain of the person before the person could be accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you that they suspect that you are there to look for information?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.  They just told me that they did not trust me.

CHAIRPERSON: But they did not specifically accuse you of being there to look for information?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all they said is simply that they don't trust people who come there, because sometimes they come to look for information?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: There was nothing said that you had an ANC background?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: What did you have to do to convince them of your good faith, that you are not a spy or that you can be accepted by them?  How did it change?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did explain.  I wore an Inkatha T-shirt and went to Vereeniging.  People from the township do their shopping in town.

MR LOWIES: That all that you did, to gain, to get their trust?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: And the shooting of the people of Everton as well as Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: So do you say that your participation in the shooting of the people at Everton and Sebokeng, made them realise that you can be trusted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, because I managed to go and shoot people from my own township where I was born.  I am from Everton and  I went there to shoot these people.

MR LOWIES: But sir, you were only involved in shootings in 1992, two days prior to Boipatong?  So did they not trust you from 1991 when you joined there up until two days before the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did indicate that to be trusted, you had to put on an IFP T-shirt so that the people around the Vaal should know that you are an IFP member, these people were doing their shopping in town.

MR LOWIES: I am talking about your version that one of the aspects that made them comfortable with you, which made them trust you, was the fact that you shot people.  Now that only occurred two days prior to the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I shot people when I arrived, or should I say when I was at the hostel, on the 15th, that is at Sebokeng as well as at Everton, that was in 1992.

MR LOWIES: When you arrived at the hostel, I don't understand?  What did you say?

MR LAX: He corrected, he used the word "arrive", but it wasn't translated because he corrected what he was saying, so what he actually said was that he shot people on the 15th.

MR LOWIES: So you did not shoot people when you arrived at the hostel for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not shoot people, I do not want to commit myself to that.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, regarding the going of you to Ulundi, did you do so out of your own free will?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Did you go, we have heard that you went with Vanana Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, and Gatchene too.

MR LOWIES: How long after the Boipatong shooting was this meeting in Ulundi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.  I don't want to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: Would you agree with a month more or less after this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know sir.

MR LOWIES: Were you always in the company of Vanana Zulu and Chonco there at the - Darkie - there at Ulundi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, and other induna's.

MR LOWIES: Was it not said there at the meeting Mr Nosenga, that you were a spy and that you came there to get the information for the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: I want to put the following to you Mr Nosenga, we are in the process of obtaining the records of that meeting and the following happened there according to my instructions:  Vanana Zulu informed the whole meeting when they had to give feedbacks regarding their regions, that you were a planted ANC spy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that.

MR LOWIES: That you were requested inter alia to obtain registration numbers of vehicles of IFP members at kwaMadala hostel, of leaders there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that.  I am not educated, how could I have taken down registration numbers of vehicles?

MR LOWIES: And that you were threatened to do so, if you did not do so in other words, you would have been sjamboked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know that.

MR LOWIES: That was said at a public meeting and it was recorded.  Do you deny any knowledge of anything similar to that happening?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know that.

MR LOWIES: It was also recorded Mr Nosenga, that you only arrived at the hostel approximately two days prior, the Tuesday before the meeting, which was in July, more or less if I work it out, the 14th of July, but I will get the precise date later, the fact is definitely after the Boipatong massacre?  That was recorded?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know what they are saying.

MR LOWIES: It was also recorded Mr Nosenga, that you arrived there out of your own free will, at the meeting.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: And if it happened, you would have known about it of course?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: That is why I put it to you Mr Nosenga, you have been planted in this hearing, you were not an inhabitant in the kwaMadala hostel at the time of the Boipatong massacre.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know what you are talking about.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you that that is why initially you did not also, in the first application which you say Mkhize completed, refer to the Boipatong massacre, you only referred to incidents happening pertaining to drive-by shootings in the application itself.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know what you are talking about sir.

MR LOWIES: That being the case Mr Nosenga, my instructions are to put to you that the unsigned affidavit has been laundered through the TRC system.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: You are a plot.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please reveal your source to me, who told you that?

MR LOWIES: What is your answer, these are serious allegations, what is your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, would you describe yourself as somebody who was under the protection of Prince Vanana Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Do you deny that he looked after you, that he protected you?