Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

MS CAMBANIS: Well let me be specific.  If Mr Koekemoer said that the purpose was acts of terror against Black people, is that correct?  The purpose of the bombing?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: What did I hear about Blacks, repeat the question please?

MS CAMBANIS: The purpose was for acts of terror against Black people.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I have no knowledge of acts of terror against Black people.  This was not, according to me - I have never been a racist and I have got no idea of racist acts of terror or that something like that existed.  Is that what you wanted to know Mr Chairperson?

MS CAMBANIS: Just simply, do you deny that that was the motive as Koekemoer gave evidence?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And do you deny that it was bombs were used for terror attacks on Blacks and Black taxis?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And he also gave evidence that when you heard about the bombs you were actually amused by them.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: What do you mean about amused?

MS CAMBANIS: You laughed Sir.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot hear.

CHAIRPERSON: It is put to you Sir that when you heard about the bombs that went off, you laughed about it.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Laughed about the bombs that were planted?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that is what was put to you?  You are being asked for your comment.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I did not consider it as a laughing matter.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makubela?

MR MAKUBELA: Mr Fourie I have got very few questions for you.  Earlier on during evidence in chief you told us of affirmative buying and that meant that if you didn't have money you could go into a shop and take things and never pay for them and your response to that you said that - you actually told us that you did not go with that idea because you were never raised that way and you were also asked whether you agreed to killing people in Bree Street and you said yes and you further on said you reconcile yourself with this fact because you were part of these people.  Now I've got a concern here, were you raised to reconcile yourself with things that are much more detestable like the killing of people than things that are less detestable like taking things and never paying for them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson during that period when we marched up to the so-called Volkstaat in Ventersdorp then I did not see any reason to kill people, to steal something from anyone because then I have to sit with my conscience which is not right.  In a war situation it is a different matter.

MR MAKUBELA: You further told us that you were told that if the previous government gave power to the African National Congress you will not give in, you would not negotiate with them and the only way you would negotiate with them is through the barrel of the gun.  I suppose and I presume you also reconciled yourself with this fact because these were people with whom you were in one organisation.  Do you have, as a person now, do you have any problems with the African National Congress in general and Black people in particular.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to put it as follows:  It is not the applicant who said that he will not negotiate, that he will just do it over the barrel of a gun, it was Eugene Terreblanche, the leader of the AWB, if I could just correct the question.

MR MALAN: Chairman I would just say that from the direct translation it was translated that he reconciled himself with that statement, I don't think that it was put that it was his words.

MR MAKUBELA: I will put the question once again.  It was said if the previous government gave power to the African National Congress, you will not negotiate with the, the only way you would negotiate with them was through the barrel of a gun and now you told us that you reconciled yourself with everything that was said by this organisation, I suppose you also reconciled yourself with this aspect or this fact.
	Now I'm asking you, do you as a person, have a problem Mr Fourie with the African National Congress in general and Black people in particular, because we know it is common cause that the African National Congress has it's membership, most of it's membership are Black people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson there are not only black members in the ANC.  As far as I am concerned, in my home when children do something bad they are punished.  I do not differentiate between my daughter and my son.  If one of them did something wrong it had to be corrected or rectified.  It is the same here whether the person is White, Black or if he is Brown if he doesn't agree with me, and if he is not interested in my concerns then there would be a problem.  It is not about racism.

MR MAKUBELA: And finally Mr Fourie there's one aspect that strikes me in your evidence in chief, you seem to be disassociating yourself mostly, well except for the fact that you said you reconcile yourself with everything that the organisation stood for, but mostly in your evidence you seem to be disassociating yourself, you told us first that in the meetings you never heard anything because you were patrolling, you told us when there was a demonstration of the pipe bombs you were also not there, you did not observe this, you only saw it from I think a room, you also told us that you did not even know if the bombs were going to be planted and stuff like that, my concern here is why is it that you seem to be disassociating yourself with most of these things which are very crucial in this matter, is it in an attempt, a desperate attempt to absolve yourself from these horrible deeds?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson I was asked about ten different things, if you could just move to a point and we can ask each one of them separately then it might be easier for me and you can get a better impression with regards I'll give.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's make it simpler for your, it's put to you that it seems that you distance yourself from the majority of incidents and how these events took place and how they came about and therefore you were asked if this is an attempt to get yourself out of these problems?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I am in this situation, I'm not making apologies.  You expect me to tell you the truth and that is what I'm trying to do, I want to give you the truth and that's the story Chairperson.  If I must give account I must take responsibility because I was part of the group and we had to fight this battle against the elections then I admit it, I was part of the struggle but there were things I did not know about and I simply did not know about them Chairperson.

MR BOSMAN: Mr Fourie are you trying to tell us that physically you did not partake in most of those things, but in your mind and in your conscience you did reconcile yourself with that, is that what you are trying to tell us?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was with my people, our people and what they did I must reconcile myself with that.  I cannot let them take responsibility on their own, we went there together, we did all of these things together Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie can I just add something, I heard you say that you knew of certain things for example you knew that you were looking for a guy who was an expert with explosives, that was Koekemoer, you also knew that a man was looked for who knew Johannesburg, you knew things were going to happen.  You didn't know exactly when or where, but you were part of it, you didn't oppose it you saw it as part of the struggle and in that aspect you do accept that you took part in a fashion, but you did not physically go out and kill anybody?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson, but I'm part of them because I went with them to Ventersdorp.