Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You miss the whole point.  I told you if they had asked me that question I would have answered it as follows.  I would say that I made a statement with the A-G and I am not authorised to talk about it, I did not apply for amnesty in this regard.

MR WESSELS: Now Mr Botha, that time when you and Mr Pretorius were together and you were offered this deal, did you realise that it's not going to be good enough to say that you were involved in the murder, you also will have to give a reason why Dr Webster was killed.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I kept to the facts as they were known to me, and that's all that can say in this regard.

MR WESSELS: Listen to my question.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, you are using the wrong choice of words, that makes me a bit uncomfortable.

MR WESSELS: Let me choose different words then.  When you were with Dr Pretorius, did you know that they were interested in finding out the whole story and this will include the motive and why you were involved in the murder?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, the full truth.

MR WESSELS: And you had to give a reason why Dr Webster was killed.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again, the whole truth.

MR WESSELS: And you went to Barnard, and I will put it to you that you discussed this aspect.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I told him what I was going to do, I said that I was going to talk to Dr Pretorius concerning the Webster incident and that I have to associate myself with the truth and the facts of this matter.

MR WESSELS: When did you hear that Mr Barnard is going to say what he just said here in front of this Commission?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was after the second sitting, Mr Wessels, I told you now for the third time.

MR WESSELS: After the second sitting that was in June.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.  He still could not decide if he must take part in the reconciliation process or not and what happened here did have an emotional influence on him and he did what he thought was the best.

MR WESSELS: When did you find out that he was going to do this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not long ago, Sir, when he decided finally to do it.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, how long is "not long ago"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A month, two months, I cannot recall.  It's irrelevant.  I visit him, sometimes it's once a month at the most, if he gives me another visit I'll take another visit.  So I cannot attach a time to it, it is 20/30 minutes a month that I can communicate with him.

MR WESSELS: And am I then correct if I say that you knew this before this sitting took place or started last week, you heard this from him in prison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, he told me that he was going to take part in the process and he felt that he owed it to himself and the other parties who were affected by his actions.

MR WESSELS: Did he tell you that he was also going to testify concerning the bomb with the 4 kilograms of nails attached to it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, he did not say that at any stage.

MR WESSELS: Did you hear about it the first time when he testified about it here in front of the Commission?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Did that evidence surprise you, Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it did.

MR WESSELS: Why did it surprise you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because it's not the truth.

MR WESSELS: If you say it's not the truth, what do you mean?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With regards to the fact that it happened like that, I was responsible for the limpet mine and I, on record in my testimony, testified that I did not attach nails to this SPM limpet mine and I also did not say this to Mr Barnard at any stage.  I concede that if a discussion took place I also described my reaction to this Commission.

MR WESSELS: Did you have a discussion where he told you that Slang van Zyl told him that 4 kilograms of nails were attached to the limpet mine?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I've just told you that I do not think that the number 4 was ever mentioned.

MR WESSELS: Was there a discussion where Mr Barnard told you that Mr van Zyl told him, who is Barnard, that there were nails attached to this bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do not think he said nails, because people were not supposed to be killed.  He said such a discussion took place, I said I didn't recall it and if the discussion did take place my reaction would have been I cannot understand why Mr van Zyl would have said something like that.

MR WESSELS: You also heard that Mr Barnard testified here that when he told you this you said no, it is not true, the instruction from Gen Webb was that there should not be any loss of life.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That was the impression that I had, yes.  I was brought under that impression.

MR WESSELS: Yes and that's what you testified about.  But what are you saying now, did you say this to him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If the discussion did take place I would have reacted in the same way, I cannot recall the discussion, and this is now for the fourth time that I've said this.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, if that discussion had taken place you would not have reacted in this way, you would not have told him the instruction from Gen Webb was that people should not be injured, because you were not involved in an in-house, you had no contact with Gen Webb.  What you would have said or stated would be then: "Ferdi, Slang's talking rubbish, I was there, I prepared the bomb, there was no nails."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I've just put it to you like that, this is what I've just said.  I do not know if you need to adjust the volume, but I've just said that.

MR WESSELS: That is why I'm asking you now, you would not have said what Mr Barnard testified about, about what you said.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I cannot stand in or associate myself with his version or his interpretation of his Afrikaans, I cannot stand in for it.  If he wants to make use of the word "chimpanzee" or I use the word "baboon".  I would like to make it very clear to you, you are criticising.

MR WESSELS: I'm not criticising your evidence at this stage.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You are asking me questions if I can agree to it and I cannot.

MR WESSELS: So what I am putting to you now is that Mr Barnard did indeed not tell the truth when he testified about these so-called nails that were used.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If there was a discussion between himself and Mr van Zyl and Mr van Zyl, because of some reason, whether it was to satisfy his ego or any other reason, said that, I cannot agree with that.  He had such a discussion with me and I denied it.

MR WESSELS: You see Mr Botha, what I would like to put to you is that at a certain time when you were in a lot of trouble and under a lot of pressure you made a deal with the Attorney-General and you do not want to tell us what the surrounding circumstances are.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We are back to that point.

MR WESSELS: That information will come out later.  You had to find a motive or a reason why Dr Webster had to be killed and it was then decided that the guilt will be placed before Luitingh and Verster, because they are the people in the CCB who were involved and who testified against Mr Barnard.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There are also various other people who testified against him.