Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR STANDER: You told us about the assaults on the first day, you also told us that hey hadn't been released now what I'm asking you is, did you see them again afterwards?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I did, they used to come to the office in many instances and they were taken to the 4th floor.  If a person is assaulted on the 4th floor, those who were on the 5th floor would hear that, even when you pass there you would hear that people were assaulted, although you never know who was that person assaulted,  you'll see them when they were brought on the 5th floor when they were arrested.

MR STANDER: Can you describe to us what they looked like?  What was the effect of this assault on them?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you please explain clearly Sir?  May you please clarify your question?

MR STANDER: What I mean is, what did they look like after they'd been assaulted, were their eyes black and their faces, were their clothes torn?  What did they look like?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: If a person has been assaulted you'd see red eyes crying, you'd see if he's swollen or not.  If he has some wounds, you'd see.

MR STANDER: The questions is, did you in fact see this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The person I saw, that is China and Oupa.  There is the other one whom I forgot - I think it is John Jwuayi.

MR STANDER: Could you tell us what they looked like please?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Oupa had wounds if I remember well, on the face and then on top of the head - that is where is hair was removed.  In the eyes he was swollen a little bit.

MR STANDER: And Mr China Oliphant?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He had bruises.  I was able to see when he was sitting down in the kitchen he had bruises on him - even John Jwuayi.

MR STANDER: Tell me, how many women were in this group that had been arrested and that had been initially assaulted?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: People I remember well are the three sisters, I don't remember the names - that is the other one who was elder to them.  If I'm not mistaken, there is a certain woman, I don't remember her name very well because we did many things to many people.  I think there were four, if I'm not mistaken.

MR STANDER: Would you be able to recognise any of these women if you saw them?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

MR STANDER: Could I ask that the two women could stand up so that they can be identified by the witness?
	Do you know the woman who has just stood up?
	Would you just rise again?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That one is the elder one.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, on the list you will see you will find her name under number 4, Ntabiseng Litlikana.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: The list I've handed you this morning - she appears as number 4 on the list.   I understand the two of them is gross - I didn't see them.  May I just ask again?
	Let Ntabiseng rise first and then remain standing.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have a difficulty here.  If a person's name is called and told to stand up, there's very little point in any identification of that person thereafter.  I don't know whether anything turns on it but if my learned friend wants to identify then surely he must ask the witness: "can you identify anybody here as anybody that you saw there that day" and let him identify surely.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that what he did at first and the two women stood up?

MR VISSER: But he's now called a name and said stand up.  Now I'm not sure what the point of that is.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the name that he's just given us of the other one who stood up.  You asked Ntabiseng ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked Ntabiseng Litlikana to stand up.

MR STANDER: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the woman on the right which is as I understand it was not the women that the applicant said was the older one, she is the woman sitting two rows behind.

MR STANDER: Unfortunately, I couldn't see the one because she was at the back of the interpreter's office.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps she could stand up again please - the woman at the back there.  Perhaps we could ask her, her name.  Could you say it again or could say it to the - could you say your name again please?

VICTIM: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: That is number 5 Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, I don't think the issue really has to do with the question of identity as such but you see this is required for purposes of subsequently passing on the names to the Reparations Committee so that it can declare certain people as victims in terms of the Act.  So, during hearings of this kind we need to have the names of the people so that we can pass them over to the Reparations Committee.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, thank you, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.  Instead of having Mr Motsamai identify them, they could just get up and say: "my name is so and so and I'm a victim", that's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He confirms that they were victims.  Anybody can stand up and say: "I'm a victim, I want to claim".   He is confirming the fact - yes, that is a genuine victim.

MR VISSER: Point taken, Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: May I continue Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: The one he identified was Matapela Litlikana as the elder one.

MR STANDER: That seems to be number 5.  Can I ask Ntabiseng Litlikana, the younger sisters to stand up.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you see her?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I do see her.

MR STANDER: Mr Motsamai, these two women, were they among the women assaulted on that day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so Sir.

MR STANDER: Tell me, after being assaulted, did they receive any medical treatment?  I'm not just talking about these two, I'm talking about the whole group.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I really don't know how am I going to explain this but I'll try by all means to explain it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Please just tell us whether to your knowledge, they did receive medical treatment or to your knowledge, they didn't.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were taken to a doctor, they did receive medical treatment.

MR STANDER: Do you know whether it was on the same day or only a few days afterwards?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: After a few days.

MR STANDER: Did you know what happened to them eventually, were they released later on?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were not released, they've been there.  For them to be released, it was the lower unit which could able to know exactly.  Swanepoel was amongst that unit - those are the people who'll be able to explain when did they release them.

MR STANDER: Did you know whether Baba Khuzela was a member of this particular group?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes Sir, he was also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Number 11?

MR STANDER: That is indeed so, Mr Chairman.
	Tell me would you be able, if I gave you the names of the people present, that you'd be able to identify that they had been there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I'll be able to identify them if I'm maybe given a list of names for those people.

MR STANDER: I'm sorry, I don't have a list but I can read them out to you.

ADV DE JAGER: I've given him a list.

MR STANDER: Thank you.  I'm not sure that it's the same list that I've got.

ADV DE JAGER: It's the list you gave us, numbered 1 to 16.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the problem is, these 16 weren't all members of the same group.  I'm talking about the members of that first group that I mentioned.

ADV DE JAGER: Do all the members of the first group appear on that list which you represent?

MR STANDER: No, not at all.

ADV DE JAGER: Then they must give him another list.