Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ALBERTINA SISULU: In some cases, Doctor does not examine the cases because we had a four roomed house.   The Doctor's consulting room had another room that had beds where he examines the patients.  He was not always examining them in his actually, you know, consulting room, he had a room where he put them on beds.  That room had two beds for examination.  I wouldn't hear if he was there examining the patients, nor even if he was in his consulting room, because there was some distance.  I wouldn't hear what he was saying.

MR KADES: And did the Doctor ordinarily come to his rooms when you were in the afternoon or in the early afternoon, late afternoon?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Repeat your question.

MR KADES: Did the Doctor Asvat, the late Dr Asvat, come to his consulting rooms during the early or late afternoon ordinarily or did he start consulting in the morning?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Sometimes he comes early, round about ten, eleven.  Sometimes a little bit earlier, because he used to visit his patients in hospitals where they are admitted.  He used to do his rounds first.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kades, how far are you?

MR KADES: I am trying to be brief Mr Chairman, and I ask you to believe that.

CHAIRPERSON: I would want to say you have not answered my question.

MR KADES: Another three or four questions.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR KADES: Mrs Sisulu, if Mrs Mandela had in fact visited the offices of Dr Asvat on the 27th of January of 1989, and there had been a row, do you say that you would not have heard that at all?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.  If perhaps they were shouting at each other, but if I was just around within the room, I wouldn't have heard.

MR KADES: If Mrs Mandela had in fact arrived at the offices of Dr Asvat, would this not have been a matter for comment and excitement perhaps by other people present in the surgery at the time?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, that I wouldn't know because I am right at the back in my dispensary.  I am doing my work, I am alone, I am busy.

MR KADES: Just give me one second.  Thank you Mr Commissioner.

MR KADES: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Kuny?

ADV KUNY: It is Steven Kuny, representing Ms Falati.   Mrs Sisulu, you have said in your evidence that you were the only person that was working at the surgery, that is in an administrative capacity, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Correct.

ADV KUNY: Were you working throughout December, was there any time that you were away or that you took time off?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, usually if I am not well, I used to be given time to go and see the Doctor.  I wouldn't say I was there all the time, no.  And in fact, some months I had a problem with my health because I am diabetic, I would be admitted and sometimes you know, go off sick.

ADV KUNY: What were your normal working hours?

ALBERTINA SISULU: It was from nine o'clock to five o'clock.

ADV KUNY: And on the days that you were not there, how did Dr Asvat deal with the administrative aspects, was there no other persons that would assist him?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Dr Asvat used to do his work alone.  He used to admit his patients, attend to them.

ADV KUNY: Ms Falati says she gave evidence to the effect that she says on the 28th of December she went to Dr Asvat's surgery with Katiza Cebekhulu and Mrs Mandela, would you have any knowledge of that?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Not that I know of.

ADV KUNY: She says that there was a - she says that you weren't there at the surgery but another person dealt with the administrative aspects.  She described the person as a pregnant woman, would you have any knowledge of that person?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, there was a nurse that I relieved.  She could have been there if perhaps Dr Asvat asked her to come and help.

ADV KUNY: Mrs Sisulu if I understand your evidence correctly, it is possible that Mrs Mandela could have visited the surgery on the 30th of December 1988 while you were there, but that you may not have seen her?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have never seen her that day.

ADV KUNY: But it is possible that she could have visited on that day and you may not have seen her?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, I can't be sure of that, but I don't remember seeing her there.

ADV KUNY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

ADV KUNE: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mrs Sisulu, Michael Miller for Mr Dlamini, Thulani Dlamini.  Mrs Sisulu, you were talking a moment ago about the fact that you had certain afternoons off, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Saturday?

MR MILLER: You had certain afternoons off, when you were at work?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR MILLER: Was it a particular ... (tape ends)

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, I can't remember really.

MR MILLER: It was on Thursdays.

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, if I wasn't there, it may be that I was in hospital or sick.

MR MILLER: No what I am trying to ascertain Mrs Sisulu, is on Thursday afternoon the 26th of January, in other words the day before, or the afternoon before Dr Asvat was killed, were you there?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Oh, yes, yes, oh yes.  I didn't get your question, I was there.

MR MILLER: You are quite clear about that?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I am clear about that.

MR MILLER: Now, you say these finger prints were taken of male patients?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR MILLER: What was the reason for that?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have just explained that I don't know what is it for, because that is the work I was given by the nurse I relieved, that is the procedure in that clinic.

MR MILLER: How long had this been the procedure, six months, a year or as long as you can remember?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't know how long did Dr Asvat have that nurse  who was working with him, I don't know, but I took over from the sister who was working with Dr Asvat.

MR MILLER: So to come back to a question I asked you a moment ago, you said in 5.2 of your affidavit that some time in the mid-morning, at about eleven o'clock, two young men came in and wished to see the Doctor?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR MILLER: It wasn't on Thursday afternoon?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I am not sure of the date.  The two young men who came to see the Doctor, those are the men who killed the Doctor, I was there.  That is why I say I was there that Thursday.

MR MILLER: They didn't come to see him on Thursday and make an appointment for the following day?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR MILLER: Was there ever an appointment?

ALBERTINA SISULU: The patient who killed Dr Asvat was there that day they killed him, they never made an appointment for the previous day.

MR MILLER: Thank you.  Now, was Dr Asvat particularly scared that day, the day he was killed?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I wouldn't say really because he had seen many patients you know, before those boys come there in the afternoon at about four o'clock.  I wouldn't say he was being scared you know.

MR MILLER: Did he mention to you that he thought that perhaps his life was in danger or something like that?

ALBERTINA SISULU: You mean that day?

MR MILLER: That day?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR MILLER: And you say there was a security door between I presume the waiting room and his office?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR MILLER: And that security door could only be opened from inside the Doctor's consulting room?

ALBERTINA SISULU: That is correct.

MR MILLER: It wasn't possible to open it from any other side?

ALBERTINA SISULU: He wouldn't.

MR MILLER: And you say there were two shots fired?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

MR MILLER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Fazel Randera?