Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   The files in Swaziland, and the ANC cadres that lived there, was handled by Ermelo Security Branch, with of course a head office file too.  All information coming from Swaziland through sources would have been fed through the Ermelo Branch, through the regional branch, to headquarters.  So all the people actively in Swaziland involved, ANC cadres, were fairly well known - or very well known to Warrant-Officer Paul van Dyk, who worked on the border.  They unfortunately also moved quite a lot, had safe houses, changed their routine to avoid specifically being tracked down - because routine is your biggest danger - and then being taken out.  So the information that they would have collected and come back with, Paul van Dyk could have confirmed yes.  And then I'm sure an assessment would have been made, and on the final go-ahead of Brigadier Skoon the targets would have been hit.

CHAIRPERSON: But Warrant-Officer van Dyk himself would rely on people like askaris to give him information.

WITNESS:   No, they had their sources on Vlakplaas.  Whilst doing surveillance, yes, he would say, "Such and such a person lives in such and such a house, or frequents that house."

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.  I am talking about the activities of

CHAIRPERSON: /such and

CHAIRPERSON: such and such a person, not where he lives.  We'll come to that later.  But to identify an individual - identify in the sense that point a finger that this is one of the activists or terrorists or Comrades - that information, where does he get that from?  From his informers?

WITNESS:   From informers in Swaziland.  The Swaziland Police Commissioner and his second in charge, deputy at the time, also the person working at the fingerprint expert and taking photos were on the pay roll of the Ermelo Security Branch.  So whenever ANC cadres reported or left the country for training students, and would report in Swaziland, we in a very short space of time would have their fingerprints, photos of them, their full names.  We also raided the United Nations High Commission for Refugees office, all the files there.  I was personally involved in that.  And then we befriended the Dita Airline representative in Swaziland, Raoul Matheus, who gave us lists of all the names of the people that flew out of the country.  So as soon as he would change passports in Swaziland we will have the full knowledge of it.  Abductions were made from Swazi Police gaols with the co-operation of the Swazi Police, and I'm referring specific to Gloria Sadibe.   His MK name was September.  I would just - there was something else that I thought of now.  Also one night on the road - on the road from Manzini to Mbabane, on the Lusita Road, Palace Road, Chris Dieklifs and Chris Rorich had an accident with their Cortina vehicle, and were fairly seriously injured, and when the Swazi Police came there they found a lot of secret - Swazi secret police documents in the boot, which was traced back to the later Commissioner of Police, Sandy

CHAIRPERSON: /Mthinisu, who

CHAIRPERSON: Mthinisu, who was also on the pay roll, and as a result of that he was transferred to Mahamba Border Post.  So they were - and of course the Chief of the CID, Charlie Bell, was close to the South African Security Policemen.  His brother was Joe Bell, that worked for National Intelligence in South Africa, and he fed information through on a fairly large scale.

CHAIRPERSON: These are all highly placed police officials in Swaziland.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That were on the pay roll of the South African Government, of the Security Branch.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee, your counsel asked you a question why was Mr Pillay not returned to Swaziland when you discovered that the askaris had abducted him, when you were telephone by van der Lith, and your response thereto was that if he had been returned to Swaziland he would have gone - Mr Pillay would have gone to the police, and because the askaris were still in Swaziland they would have been open to arrest by the Swaziland Police.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman, and exactly the same embarrassment that it eventually ended up in.

UNKNOWN: Now, I just want to find out if it was not possible for van der Lith to have contacted the askaris to tell them to come back to the country.

WITNESS:   It was one of the most easiest things to do, and I do not until this day understand why he did not get up at that time of the night out of his bed, drove to the Dutch Reformed Parsonage, which was well known to us all, which was rented by Johhny Vas of Swaziland Engineering - why he did not do it.

UNKNOWN: Then, Mr Coetzee, why did you not suggest that to

UNKNOWN: /him?  You

UNKNOWN: him?  You gave the order that Mr Pillay should be brought to Vlakplaas.

WITNESS:   I did do that.  I can't remember exactly what time, but I said he must immediately get the askaris out of Swaziland.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination of this witness?

MR JANSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR JANSEN: FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee, the building at Klapperkop Fort, was that used by Military Intelligence mainly?

WITNESS:   That was a highly secret Military Intelligence base, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Do you know whether that building is still used by Military Intelligence?

WITNESS:   I've got no idea, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: The affidavit by Mr Pillay, Exhibit D, was dated in - excuse me - was dated on July 1990.  Was that after you had testified to the Harms Commission?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.  I testified at the Harms Commission from the 25th of April 1990 until about the 3rd of May 1990.

MR JANSEN: The drug administered to Mr Pillay in your layman observation, did that seriously affect his mental capabilities?

WITNESS:   According to my observation it looked as if it loses control - they're trying - or that was what they were saying, that he loses control over his thoughts so that he can't resist, to sort of take his resistance of controlling his mind away from him,

MR JANSEN: Did he appear to be fully aware of what was going on around him while being injected with that serum?

WITNESS:   Absolutely not.

MR JANSEN: You say that no disciplinary steps were taken

MR JANSEN: /against

MR JANSEN: against any of the askaris.  Do you know whether they were actually policemen at that stage?

WITNESS:   At that stage I can't say.  It was in February '80.  It could have been in the process.  I don't think so.  I don't know.  I'll have to check it in their personal records.  I can't say, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: What kind of disciplinary steps could ever have been taken against someone who was not a member of the police, but just an independent - registered as an HQ informer?

WITNESS:   Well, actually none.  If it becomes too embarrassment for the Security Police I suppose the next command would have been, "Make a plan with the man," but not departmental steps.  No departmental steps ever in my time was taken against any member at Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: And then just finally, the words that you use in reference to the Joe Pillay case, that you planned the mission, you do also say in your application that the mission was planned between the Eastern Transvaal Security Police and Headquarters Security Police, and then you name certain senior officers.  Could you just explain how those two statements must be seen in conjunction, the one where you say that you planned it, and when you say that the people at Headquarters and Eastern Transvaal planned it?

WITNESS:   Well, as I say, it was decided by the region, Eastern Transvaal Region and Headquarters, Mr Chairman, and eventually then left in my hands to execute the plan.  With other words to identify targets, and then discussing it, set the final plan out, and then get the necessary green light to go ahead.