Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you subsequently, subsequent to completing the form, you wrote a letter dated the 9th of June 1996 that starts from page 302 - 311, this letter was written by you, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now when you were asked by the Evidence Leader as to why you didn't rob at other pay points, you offered an explanation, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I did explain that.

MR NGUBANE: I just want to give you an opportunity if you can clarify what appears in your letter and compare that with the answer that you have given.
	At page 306, the last paragraph, you say on the 23rd of March in the morning, Luthuli arrived at kwaMashu police station and told Mhluli and myself that there would be four escorts of policemen including him, escorting the pension team.
	We agreed on that point that since there would be three pay points, namely Macubela Store, Msundusi Store and Tapuka Store, all at Ndwedwe, we would carry the mission out at Tapuka Store, since the escorts would be tired by then and off guard, knowing the last pay point, and that nothing had happened at the last two pay points.
	In that we would catch them off balance and less alert.  If our aim was the money, we would not have agreed to confront the escorts at the last pay point, because there would be so little money left after having paid the two previous points.  Because we need firearms, we thought the last pay point was a good target and it was indeed.
	Do you understand that statement?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I do understand.

MR NGUBANE: Do you realise that it conflicts with the answers that you have given to the Commission?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I do not really see how it conflicts with the other statement, because we indeed carried the mission out at the last pay point.

MR NGUBANE: I take it from that that you do not see the need to explain this statement as against the answers that you gave the Commission, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.  Unless there is a need for clarification.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Chairperson, maybe on the last issue.  Mr Hlengwa, in your answers to our Evidence Leader you said the reason why you didn't attack at the first pay point is that many police in camouflage arrived as well as on the second pay point, but according to your letter here, the reason was that you targeted the last pay out point, because the police would be tired, and they will also be less alert.
	You are saying you don't want to explain why there is a difference between the two versions?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I can explain.  When I mentioned the arrival of the police at those pay points, I forgot to mention that there was no purpose on our parts to rob them of their firearms at those points, because we had indeed planned that we would rob them at the last pay point, because by then they would be tired.  We just wanted to see what went on when they actually conducted that exercise of paying out this pension money.
	I do apologise if I did not mention before that we had actually intended to rob them at the last pay point, because that was when they would be tired and not very alert.

MR SIBANYONI: I heard you say that you never fired any shot and I want to find out from you, who physically carried the steel trunk?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Please pardon me, because I don't remember quite well just who amongst the four of us carried the trunk.
	Because of what had happened, I don't quite exactly remember who actually carried the trunk.  I think more than one person carried the trunk, but I don't know who.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you thought there were guns in the steel trunk.  At what stage did you have that impression?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: When we were still planning this, we did not know that there would be a trunk, we just saw the trunk at the scene.
	Therefore we just took it along with the firearms and when we shook it, it felt like there was something inside.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying the taking of the trunk was not pre-planned, it happened at the moment when your people were attacking?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, we took it because we thought that there were firearms inside, we had no idea that there would have been a trunk.
	That is why I said there was no motive on our part to rob the police of the money, because we thought that the money would have been inside the store, not outside.  Even if it was there, it would have been so little, that it didn't matter.  What we wanted was guns, and that is why we took the trunk.

MR SIBANYONI: Where was this trunk taken and where did you discover that there were no guns in the steel trunk?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: We took it to K Section and when we left the firearms at K Section, we attempted to open it.  When we opened it, there was nothing inside, it was empty.
	So we left it there and disposed of it.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  I just want to be clear about this firearms, you said that you gave, that Dlamini took the one, that was an HMC, wasn't it?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, it was.

MR LAX: Why did he take that one?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think just before you answer, I think just for record purposes, an HMC is a hand machine carbine.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, can I continue?  When Dlamini took the firearm, he wanted that gun to be employed at Mpumalanga in Unit 3, where he lived.  At that time, there was still conflict at Mpumalanga, so he was also a policeman coming from Unit 3, and as a policeman he was not supposed to be there, because policemen were an enemy in that community, but because he had grown up in the area, and was known in the community, he could bring this weapon to assist in the fighting.
	That is why he took that firearm, to take to Mpumalanga, that gun was supposed to be used in the same way as the other ones which had been used in kwaMashu.

MR LAX: And then the other three firearms, that was the other two HMC's and a shotgun, who took those?  Did you take them?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No.  I did not take them.  We left them with Mgululego at K Section.  He was supposed to store them and they would have used them at a later point.
	That is where we left them.

MR LAX: You don't even know Mgululego's surname, yet you got involved in this operation with him?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I would like to explain.  As far as I know, I know his surname to be Mbele, but I cannot be too certain because a person may have a different surname because of the political situation.
	Secondly when you are involved in such missions with other people, you may not reveal everything about yourself, therefore I am not sure, I cannot be certain that he was indeed Mbele, but that is what I knew.
	In a war situation such things are not important.  The main focus is on what is going on in the war.  One should also remember that I was also a member of the Police Force.
	If they approached me and requested ammunition, I will maybe give them a box of 50 bullets and I would give it to them.

MR LAX: Where would you get a box of 50 bullet from?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I explained that I had a licensed 9 mm Parabellum, therefore I would buy ammunition.

MR LAX: You said it was your service pistol, you didn't say it was your own, licensed pistol, you said it was your service pistol.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I had two firearms.  The service pistol was the HMC and I had a personal one, a small one.