Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

ADV SANDI: Now why did you have to ask him if he belonged to any political organisation?  It could never have been a politically motivated attack if what you're saying is true?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes as I'm saying there was no political activities in that area of ours, the only thing is that the applicant and the Mkhize people, they didn't want Mr Mthembu to be appointed as an Induna of the youngsters because he was from the farm and he was new in the area of Empangisa so they wanted a person who would be in the area for a long time and whose other Mkhize family because most of the Empangesa area belongs to the Mkhize people.

ADV SANDI: But you still asked him if he was aligned to any political organisation and you say the reason for that was because you wanted to find out if the attack was politically motivated?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes you see I can say in the old government if there was a crime committed he had to be reported to the area commissioner then at the area commissioner, when you report a crime, they will ask you whether it was political or it was not political.  We had no record of that crime that's why I asked that question to Mr Mthembu.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Sibeko, carry on?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you do that.  Mr Sibo Mkhize, was he linked to the ANC?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know he was linked to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now just a recap and follow up of what was said, this question.  Now was Sibo Mkhize operating within mid Illovo, do you know him?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, I don't know MR Sibo Mkhize but all what I know that he was operating from Umbumbulo area.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words what you are saying is that of course when Umbumbulo area it's another jurisdiction than your jurisdiction?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct, mid Illovo doesn't fall under Umbumbulo, those are two different places.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words in the old South African set up then will you say that mid Illovo belonged to Natal and Umbumbulo belonged to KwaZulu Natal?  Was that the position?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It was like that.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words that is why the police were then that's why at Umbumbulo area then there was a KZP which was operating there, you at mid Illovo then, there was SAP?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you further heard that the applicant has testified before this Committee that when he was suspected you of aligning yourself with the IFP members then of course there had been some instances when some of your members had participated in the attacks?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is not correct.

MR SIBEKO: So now will you briefly tell this Committee the reason why the offence which of course was committed on the 23rd March it had nothing to do with the politics, is that what you are telling me now?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct, that's what I'm telling you is the correct.  This incident was not related to any political activities.

MR SIBEKO: So now how would you explain the applicant firing at you when you announced yourself?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I can explain.  The applicant, that's the type of person who wouldn't like the police or he didn't want to be arrested or taken to jail, that is the reason why he fired at the police.

MR SIBEKO: Now he has mentioned to this Committee that he no longer trusted you because you could have been in cahoots with the people who may have wanted him out, what do you say to that?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I would say that the applicant is lying because several times I, myself fetched the applicant from his house to the police station to court when he was supposed to appear before the court and then I'd done that several times, he used to phone me or send messages and then I will take up the police van, go and fetch him to court and then after that I will take him back from court to his house.

MR SIBEKO: So now when he absconded I take it that a thirty days period had already expired when you started looking for him or what was the position?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: After he had planned to appear before court and then we started to look for him.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here again.  Tell me, Sergeant Ntshangase, did you at any stage or one of your colleagues indicate to him that you were no longer prepared to take him to court and to grant him some sort of protection?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know what happened on that day, you see Illovo is justice police station with about 20 members and then we had two police vans.  On that day when he failed to appear the court one van was broken and then it was only van at the police station so we explained when the applicant phoned at the police station, we explained to him that we will not be able to fetch him because we only had one van, the other one is broken so he must try other means to come to court.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it not a reasonable inference that he then drew that he was not safe?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: On the side of maybe the complainant in the attempted murder case maybe I can say that he was scared of the complainants in that attempted murder case.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Can you just explain this, did you go to look for him on the same day he had failed to appear in court?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes on the same day after the court then I went to Empangisa and then I did send a word from the Zonde Store to tell him that he must come to court or he must try and contact me so that I will make other arrangements to come to court and then because a warrant of arrest was issued but I explained to the magistrate the reason why he had failed to appear before court because the applicant was very well known to me.

ADV SANDI: This place where this shooting took place you went there on the same day that he failed to appear in court?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct, I went on the same day.

ADV SANDI: The information that he had a hand grenade, when did you get that information?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The information came about two or three weeks after he failed to appear before the court.

ADV SANDI: I don't follow you now.  He fails to appear in court and you go and look for him and the shooting incident takes place on the same day, not so?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, I mean to say the accused failed to appear before court then I went to his area where he stayed then I left a message with the people to tell him that he mustn't be afraid that just because he failed to appear before court he will be arrested, he must phone me and I will still be prepared to fetch him and take him to court but he didn't do that.  Thereafter that we then, after about two or three weeks we then received information that he was also now in possession of a hand grenade and he was not prepared to come to court any longer.

ADV SANDI: Thanks Mr Sibeko.

MR SIBEKO: Now Mr Ntshangase, you have mentioned that you were a police officer in that area.  For how long have you been in mid Illovo?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I've already said I've been working there for ten years.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words you are quite familiar with people of the area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now one last question.  No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Have you got any questions Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Yes Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ntshangase, before we go into your evidence, could you explain to the Committee members why Mr Mkhize was afforded the privilege of the police fetching him and taking him to court on every occasion, what was the reason for that?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The reason was that when he goes to court he had to go past the complainant's house before he gets to the police station or to get to court.