Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Did either he or his wife never look to you for assistance in relation to any matter?

MAUREEN VENTER: No, I do know that at one stage Mr Taylor was in jail and at that point I had contact with his wife and I offered support but that was all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now if anyone says that Mr Taylor in handing over this gun to your husband for possible use in the slaughter that was to come, what would you say to that?

MAUREEN VENTER: That that would be absolute nonsense and that I would not be aware of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you have a good relationship with your husband?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were there secrets between the two of you?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because he is recorded in paragraph 3 of EXHIBIT AH - says "Mr Taylor said to me or told me to keep the weapon for the possible slaughter which lay ahead."  Now did you ever hear him, Mr Taylor, say that?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: If your husband's statement is correct, why would he not have told you that that was the purpose for which it was handed over to him?

MAUREEN VENTER: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you have anything to do with sending the firearm through a third person to Mr Derby-Lewis?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you ever asked for a jersey that was going to go out of your household pretending it to be a firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Did any jersey go Mr Bizos?  You keep on referring to jersey but as I understand this witness' evidence, she said it was in a plastic bag - it was in a plastic box in a plastic bag, the firearm, there's no mention of a jersey and nobody has spoken of seeing a jersey.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] thought of covering it up with a jersey or referring to it as a jersey.  Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I think it was referred to as a jersey rather.  Then
was there any talk by anyone that it will not be referred to as a firearm but as a jersey?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now was your husband detained or did he go to the police station and was he released?

MAUREEN VENTER: My husband was arrested by the police and he spent one night in the cells at Benoni and after that he was released.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just tell us at what time was he arrested on the day that he was?

MAUREEN VENTER: It was approximately at quarter past four in the early morning hours.

GEORGE BIZOS: And when was he released?

MAUREEN VENTER: Approximately the following evening, early evening - half past five.

GEORGE BIZOS: So he spent the whole day and the next day for the afternoon?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now do you recall whether you made any statement whilst your husband was in custody or did you make a statement after your husband was released?

MAUREEN VENTER: I can't remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you what he had been questioned about by the police on his release?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you that he was questioned closely about this gun that your husband had through another person sent to Mr Derby-Lewis?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you what he had said about that firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he - were you taken to the police station or did you go to the police station when you might have made the statement, how do you recall it?

MAUREEN VENTER: I went to the Benoni Police Station.

GEORGE BIZOS: After your husband's release?

MAUREEN VENTER: After my husband was arrested.

GEORGE BIZOS: But before he was released?

MAUREEN VENTER: Before he was released.

GEORGE BIZOS: And is that when you made your statement?

MAUREEN VENTER: I can't remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, perhaps we should hand in, copies have been made Mr Chairman, we should hand it in as EXHIBIT AK, thank you Mr Chairman.   That's on the assumption that that Agreement of Sale did not go in, Mr Chairman and I don't intend putting it in although I may ask some questions about it.  Is that the statement that you made?

MAUREEN VENTER: I have not studied this statement but I can recall that I did make a statement but as I have said to you that at no police station at any time did I make a statement.  Now that I study these documents, in the last paragraph you will see that it is signed in Johannesburg because I refused to make any statements to the police as I had no actual statement to make and that afternoon, in the Chambers of an Advocate in the city, he said to me - Mrs Venter make a statement and say what happened, at least that of which you are aware.  So I did not make the statement at any police station but at the Chambers of an Advocate at Johannesburg.  You will see that it is signed at Johannesburg and not at Benoni.

GEORGE BIZOS: How does the Sergeant come in?

MAUREEN VENTER: Well there was a sergeant present because my husband at that stage was also at the Advocate's Chambers and he was one of the sergeants who had accompanied my husband from Benoni, if my recollection is correct and that is how the sergeant came to be present at the scene.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did the policeman want to know from you what you knew about the gun?

MAUREEN VENTER: No they didn't question me directly at any stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because I would have found it strange that there's nothing in here about a gun but I now understand why there possibly isn't but in relation to your explanation as to the circumstances under which the statement was made - when I asked you whether you - that was your signature or not, didn't you notice that it was signed in Johannesburg immediately under your signature?

MAUREEN VENTER: No because I didn't read the document.  Now that I have read the document and after I have thought about it and after I have said that I didn't make any statement to the police and this statement surfaced, I reminded myself that I did make a statement in the Advocate's Chambers and at no police station at any stage and when I read this, I knew exactly what you were referring to.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, when did you move to Krugersdorp.

MAUREEN VENTER: We moved to Krugersdorp at the beginning of March 1993.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is when you took occupation of the house that you bought and in respect of which you have produced a Deed of Sale?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you living before?

MAUREEN VENTER: I lived in Delarey.

GEORGE BIZOS: How far is that from Krugersdorp?

MAUREEN VENTER: I don't know, if I had to estimate I would say approximately 20 kilometres.  I don't know what the accuracy of my estimate is.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did your husband go into Krugersdorp regularly for business purposes?

MAUREEN VENTER: For the past two months I'd say from February or perhaps a little earlier we visited Krugersdorp a number of times because we were looking at property because we had decided to move to Krugersdorp and we were interested in a residence and that is why we travelled to Krugersdorp a number of times to view properties.

GEORGE BIZOS: And also presumably to sign a Deed of Sale, to visit the Building Society or financial institution for a bond - you were in Krugersdorp regularly?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you meet the Derby-Lewises for the first time?

MAUREEN VENTER: The first time that I met Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis must have been at their residence when I joined as a member of Sportron.  I would not be able to give you an accurate date because I did not consider dates that important but that was the first time that I again met Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis and that must have been - it could have been during March.

GEORGE BIZOS: February?

MAUREEN VENTER: No it wasn't February because at that stage I still wasn't living in Krugersdorp and I only met them again after I'd moved in to my home in Krugersdorp and that was definitely March.