Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Then you were also found guilty of assault.  You have already referred to it, that was the assault on Sebohodi, the person who was hit on the head with a baton.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And you were also sentenced for that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: That assault, how does it fit in with the objectives of the AWB as you referred to them and the task that you were supposed to perform that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Mr Sebohodi resisted, under no circumstances did he want any person of the AWB search his vehicle.  So this man resisted, and wouldn't allow us to search his vehicle.  That is why Phil Kloppers hit the man over the head with a baton and I stood watching this.

MR KNOETZE: So the assault on him, if I can put it in other words, was in order to perform the task of searching the vehicles and looking for illegal weapons?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Then you were also found guilty on the charge of the robbery, not robbery but theft and you already referred to that and you say that you are not applying for amnesty for that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: You were also found guilty on those charges of assault in general as it is known?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: If I understand it correctly, that assault was based on the fact that the people were threatened by the fact that the side windscreen was shattered and the people were forced to get out of the car, they were forced to sit next to the cars on the embankment, those types of things and also the fact that the person was hit over the head with a baton, while these things were stolen from the cars.
	The question is this, that assault on those people, what has that got to do with the instruction and the purpose you wanted to achieve that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: We deliberately took the people out of the cars, we told them to get out of the car and if they didn't want to, they were assaulted.
	The one vehicle, the Toyota Cressida, its windscreen was shattered.

MR KNOETZE: So again can one say that the assault was in order to make sure that you could search the cars?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Where are you detained?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Johannesburg Maximum Prison.

MR KNOETZE: What is the relationship between you and the other applicants?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: At the moment, between me and the other applicants, there is a lot of friction at this moment.  I can understand why, because they really wanted that I also testify the same way they did, but under no circumstances can I do that.

MR KNOETZE: Exhibit C, has already handed in.  If I can just refer you to that, the letter of June 1995 to you, by Kloppers.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Is that when the trouble started?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: In your first written application for amnesty, you already submitted an application which was different from the other applicants, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Can you just tell us if you had any contact with the other applicants when you wrote that application?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: None, whatsoever, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And this is also the same with the application as we have it now?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: During the whole process you also made an admission and the admission appears on page 181 to 184?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: That admission was made before the criminal procedures started?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: And there are differences between that admission and your admission today.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Can you tell us what are those differences, or why they exist?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: When I made this admission to the South African Police, I made this admission because I thought that when the criminal procedure started, I would get a lighter sentence for what happened that evening.

MR KNOETZE: The evidence that you have given today, should the Commission see it as a supplementary to your written application?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Does this reflect the complete and whole truth?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: You have already apologised to the victims' families, what do you ask from this Commission?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I ask this Commission and this Committee that if they go look at everything, and after they have thought about it, and if maybe it is possible in their hearts, to consider amnesty for me.

MR KNOETZE: Can I just refer you to page 8 of your amended application, the third paragraph from the top which starts with "I want ..."
	Would you just like to read it please?  Do you have page 8, third paragraph from the top, it starts with "I will ..."

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I would like to put it on record that since I was found guilty, I came to the conclusion that the confrontation and the results thereof, and also the policy of the AWB is not the final solution for the future of our country and therefore during February 1996, I resigned my membership at the AWB and at the moment I really do believe that the keeping of peace in our country lies within co-operation and tolerance amongst all cultures in this country.

MR KNOETZE: Do you confirm that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I do confirm this.

MR KNOETZE: Did your view of black people then change since that event?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Is it so that you are in prison with black people at the moment?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: How do you get on with them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I have no problems with them, I see them as my friends, I play with them, I eat with them, we make jokes together.

MR KNOETZE: How do they feel about you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: They do not have a problem with me Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Can the Committee then accept that in order to, that you support the process of reconciliation?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Can the Committee also accept that if you got amnesty and you would be released, that you would play a positive role within the community?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: .

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Van der Schyff, here at the end of your evidence you said that the other applicants, there is friction between you because they wanted that you would testify the same as they testified?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: But Mr Van der Schyff, your application before it was amended, was completely different from the other applicants and your application form, you submitted it completely separately, they did not influence you, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, they did not influence my application.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now, if they did not influence your application, why when you did an application initially, why didn't you then disclose everything?