Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just one or two, I won't be long.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Mabala, you left for the - you left the  Transkei for Cape Town from Nkobo in the Transkei on the 13th of November 1993, is that right?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes Sir, that's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, how many days before that - was it on that day, was it a day before that, a week before that, a month before that, give us an idea of when you were in this meeting - you've admitted you had a meeting with comrade Xuma, when was that, was it on that same day or was it before that day and if so, when?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What I would like to rectify here Sir is this, I met Mr Xuma when I went there for refreshing when I was about to come to Cape Town with him, it's not during the attack it was during the refreshing when Mr Nonuba was deploying us there, that's where I met Mr Xuma.  It's not during the Heidelberg - it's not before the Heidelberg attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this Mr Arendse, what is he talking about a refreshing?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, I want to come to that.
	You recall that Gqomfa your comrade made reference to you and him and Maxeba and Jantjie attending a refresher course in October 1993 at Tsolo, is that the refresher that you are talking about?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is so.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So, with the answer to the question: "When did you meet Xuma before you left for Cape Town", would that answer be in October 1993 at Tsolo before you left for the Transkei?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is so, Sir.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just for the record, did Xuma give you any specific instruction in regard to Heidelberg - did he mention Heidelberg tavern to you?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Xuma never mentioned that but he told us that we are coming to Cape Town, it's only Nonuba who told us our trip to Cape Town but I didn't even know where exactly we were going to in Cape Town.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment now and resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gqomfa, I believe there's a gentleman who has indicated he wants to ask you a question, will you take the oath?
	Just swear him in.

ADV SANDI: Mr Gqomfa, you're going to take the oath.  There's a gentleman that would like to ask you questions but we are going to swear you in first.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr January, you wanted to ask a question of applicant number one, is that correct?

MR JANUARY: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR JANUARY: Mr Chairman, thank you very much for all the courtesy extended to me to ask these questions, it is greatly appreciated - I'll get straight to the point.
	Mr Gqomfa, my questions relate to the return of the weapons after the attack.  When you returned the weapons, to whom exactly did you return the weapons?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We gave them back to comrade Dala.

MR JANUARY: Sorry, I didn't hear the interpretation.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We gave them back to comrade Dala.

MR JANUARY: Thank you.  Was there anyone else present with Mr Dala when you returned the weapons?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, he was the only one at the house.

MR JANUARY: Did Mr Dala check the weapons when you returned it to him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't know because we just went to leave the weapons there, I don't know whether he checked them or not.

MR JANUARY: So you left the closed suitcase with Mr Dala?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What suitcase are you talking about?

MR JANUARY: I understood that you returned the weapons in a suitcase.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, the weapons were in a suitcase when we returned them.

MR JANUARY: Okay thank you.  And Mr Dala did not open the suitcase to verify that the weapons were in the suitcase?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I wouldn't know.

MR JANUARY: Thank you very much for answering those questions Mr Gqomfa.
	Thank you again Mr Chairman, for the opportunity.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mabala, I just have one or two questions to ask you to ensure that we have a clear picture as to what you are talking about.  Let us start off with the military training you received.  Yesterday afternoon when you started giving evidence, you said amongst the things you were taught whilst undergoing military training was military discipline, can you explain very briefly what you mean by that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: When I refer to military discipline - as a soldier you know how you stand for example in a parade, when I refer to military discipline it is referring to perhaps when you are standing in a parade how you're supposed to stand - the decorum thereof.  I'm not sure whether that is clear to you.

ADV SANDI: You also said you were taught to kill - you were trained to kill, who was to be killed?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: You must remember that I did not join APLA to just kill anyone - you must remember how it was before, something within me evoked such, every Black person who was oppressed must have felt the same way.  When I joined APLA I went to be trained and also to learn the skill and use it, I went to learn the skill that was used to free the people.

ADV SANDI: I will refer you to a statement by Sandile Gerald Nchikelana, do you know that name?

INTERPRETER: We were just requesting the witness to move further away from the mike.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Could you repeat the question please?

ADV SANDI: Can you provide him with the bundle - the record, page 81.  Have you got page 81 in front of you?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: I've just asked you if you know the name Sandile Gerald Nchikelana?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I don't know this name.

ADV SANDI: Maybe you know him by some other name but he says he was one of the people who were involved in the higher echelons - it would appear from his statement, in the higher echelons of APLA.  Now he says at paragraph 16 - can you see paragraph 16?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I see it.

ADV SANDI: I'm going to read it to you and I want you to confirm if that is your understanding as well, as a member of APLA
"These attacks which took place were primarily aimed at Whites, South African police, military, informers of the police"
Was that your understanding as a member of APLA?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I'm not going to answer that.

ADV SANDI: Let us go back to 1992 when you returned to the country, you came back to the country in 1992?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: And as far as I can recall you said you came back because time had come for you to come back - I'm trying to quote the exact wording, did anyone tell you to come back or was it your own decision that you should go back home now?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Please remember Sir, that when you go away you live under orders, you must remember that is was a command that was elicited that led to my coming back, therefore these people must have seen that I was ready to come back and fight - it was time for me to come back home.

ADV SANDI: Did you have a specific or a general order for coming back? Was there anything you were told you'd have to do when you come back?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: As I had completed my training I was supposed to come home and then I was supposed to be told here at home what is going to happen thereafter.

ADV SANDI: Am I correct to think that when you were given the order that you should take part in the attack at Heidelberg Tavern, you're going to be attacking Whites there?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, it is the man who gave the command who - please repeat the question.

ADV SANDI: When you were told to be part of the group that was going to do this attack at the tavern, was it your understanding that Whites were going to be killed there?