Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

MR MAPOMA: Now, when they came, when Peens and Chaka came to you in Vereeniging, can you recall how long after you were arrested, did they came to you now to threaten you about Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall properly.  I cannot recall that time.

MR MAPOMA: Are you able to say that at that time that Peens and Chaka visited you and allegedly threatened you, if you implicate them in connection with the Boipatong massacre, are you able to say as to whether at that time,  you had already  made a statement implicating Victor Keswa amongst others?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I made the statement when I was being tortured by the Police.

MR MAPOMA: When you made the statement as a result of torture by the Police, did you implicate Victor Keswa amongst others as your co-perpetrators for the Sebokeng attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir.  I only mentioned Papie and Mzwake, that is when I was tortured.  I implicated those two persons because I had suffered severe torture.

MR MAPOMA: Did you implicate Victor Keswa at all in connection with the Sebokeng attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only mentioned Victor Keswa recently when I applied for amnesty.

MR MAPOMA: Did you mention him in court?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the only people that I mentioned were Papie and Mzwake, but they were acquitted and I remained in prison.

MR MAPOMA: Now when Victor Keswa died, where were you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had already been incarcerated.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Tanzer, any re-examination?

MS TANZER: Just one question.  When you decided to apply for amnesty for crimes that you committed, did you intend to apply for amnesty for both the Sebokeng matter and the Boipatong attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: I think the rest of the question we dealt with in great detail and no more questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed, yes.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, if your uncle's surname is Nosenga, what is your father's surname?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: My father's surname is Ngoni.  Nosenga is my mother's surname, but my father's surname is Ngoni.

MR SIBANYONI: And who is your mother's name?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: My mother passed away when I was very little, but I can get the name, maybe at home.

MR SIBANYONI: As an IFP member, why did you prefer to contact the ANC when you wanted to apply for amnesty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I could not have contacted the IFP, because I was going to tell the truth as I know it, and it was contradictory to what the IFP said.

MR SIBANYONI: What did the IFP say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, the IFP - members of the IFP did not implicate leaders in such incidents, that is why I thought the ANC would be in a position to help me to apply for amnesty.

MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that the IFP did not implicate its leaders in the incidents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have been listening to the media and TV, the radio, and the IFP leaders deny any knowledge of their members, an example will be Ndlandla, Buthelezi denied that he knew him.   That is why I felt that I would be put at a disadvantage, the IFP did not even come to visit me in prison.

MR SIBANYONI: Before you even decided to apply for amnesty, are you saying you knew that the IFP was for example disassociating itself with the Boipatong incident?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is true sir.  Yes, they were denying that Themba Khosa was present when the meeting was held in the hostel.  Even now, they have not come to me, it is only my family who comes to visit me, whereas it is not them who had instructed me to go on that killing spree.

CHAIRPERSON: Prior to making the application, did you know that the IFP disassociated itself from the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes sir, I did know.  I know that they deny involvement as they are doing now, people like Themba Khosa deny that they were involved, but they supported the people when they held those meetings when they went to kill people.  As I said before, I listened to the radio, watched TV, the news, and the leaders were denying any involvement.  It is difficult for them to admit that they were involved.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I have finished, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Just one question, you mentioned that when you left the hostel, you had to wear headbands in order to identify yourselves.  Some of the applicants mentioned that they were wearing white headbands, do you know anything about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we were wearing red headbands, I do not know anything about white headbands.  I only knew the red headbands that we were wearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one little aspect Mr Chairperson.  If I remember your evidence correctly, you said under-examination, you said you had Mr Peens in your sight at all times.  Did I hear that correctly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: How could you have had him in your sight when you were inside these houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: After we had shot people in the house, on our way out, I would see him in the street or getting into the casspir.

MR LAX: Yes, the simple question is that if you were in the house, you couldn't have seen what was going on outside the house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is true, I would see him as I got out of the house.  I would not be able to see if I was inside.  I only saw him as I went out of the house.

MR LAX: The last question I have is this, you have now been asked about many statements, at least two statements before us and at least an application form.  Unless you are reminded, you have very little independent recollection of these documents, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LAX: How were you able then to tell us what happened in relation to which document and who asked what questions and who did what and who corrected you on this or that?  How were you able to remember that detail and yet, you can't even remember these documents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, most people who did the interpreting for me, were not fluent in Zulu, that is why I had to intervene now and then.

MR LAX: Yes, but I want you to tell me honestly now, you don't remember these statements, how therefore do you remember what happened when each one was taken separately?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that I do not remember other statements, but I could remember some statements or the contents of some statements which is why I was able to say I corrected so and so here and there.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told my colleague that the people who interpreted for you, could not speak fluent Zulu, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Did most of these people, am I correct in saying that most of these people spoke Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you provided with the Interpreter at your own request or did they just give you the Interpreter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were just calling a Policeman to interpret for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make it clear to them look here, I don't understand Sotho, I can't speak Sotho, I only speak Zulu, did you tell them that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did tell them and they also knew that I speak Zulu, not Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: But at that stage, were you ever provided with an Interpreter who was fluent in Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, they only provided me with those who did not speak fluent Zulu.