Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-03

MR POTGIETER:  Do you know this person, who is it?

WITNESS:  Ms Ralie Kok.  Ralie Kok.

MR POTGIETER:  Is Ms Kok employed by the police in Upington?

WITNESS:  Yes she works in the archives, she works with the dockets.  She is a clerk.

MR POTGIETER:  Could you see what kind of documents these were that she was busy destroying?

WITNESS:  I noticed that they were dockets but I don't know what kind of dockets because the dockets are actually supposed to be very confidential.  People are not allowed to have access to the dockets, apart from these two clerks responsible for them.

MR POTGIETER:  And how did she destroy them?

WITNESS:  It was shredded.  There is a shredding machine at the police station and it's just fed into the shredder and then it is taken away to the refuse heaps and the bulldozers then make holes in the ground and it is ploughed into the earth.

MR POTGIETER:  Was that the first time that you saw dockets being destroyed in that way, shredded in that way?

WITNESS:  No, no, at, there was a time when they asked me to actually assist them in destroying dockets.

MR POTGIETER:  Thank you.  So at some stage you were asked to help destroy dockets?

WITNESS:  That is correct.

MR POTGIETER:  When was that, more or less?

WITNESS:  Let me see, it was I think in June or July of this year.

MR POTGIETER:  Now as far as you are aware, is that a normal practice for the police to destroy dockets?

WITNESS:  I don't really know but I know that the dockets are shredded and it wasn't the first time that I had noticed dockets being shredded.  I'd been working at Upington police station for three and a quarter years and since I started working there I had noticed dockets being destroyed.

MR POTGIETER:  When you were asked to help, did that relate to dockets that needed to be shredded?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Was it a large amount of dockets?

WITNESS:  Yes, heaps of dockets.  It was a pile of dockets almost as high as this table.

MR POTGIETER:  Now the shredding machine, the shredder, where is that, in the offices of the police here in Upington?

WITNESS:  Yes there are two of these shredding machines.  There is one at the docket area and the other one at the security branch.

MR POTGIETER:  Which one was used by Ms Kok to shred the dockets?

WITNESS:  The one downstairs where the dockets are kept.

MR POTGIETER:  Thank you.  Now could I turn to the incident which you mentioned.  When you fired the shots during this incident, had you been, if you're honest, were you being threatened, was there a reason for you to shoot?

WITNESS:  Yes I would say there was a reason for me to shoot because the deceased and his friends were busy attacking my home, they were stoning my home and they also threw a petrol bomb at my home.  I was standing in the house, my hand was on my child's head.  The stone came through the window and hit me on the hand.  If it wasn't for the fact that my hand had been on my child's head my daughter would probably be dead today.  So yes I felt threatened and I felt there was a riot.  It was during the time of the riots and I felt that I had to defend my family and also defend myself.  I didn't want to shoot to kill.  I wanted to form an arrest but because I couldn't arrest the deceased I fired a shot and I hit the deceased.

MR POTGIETER:  What type of weapon did you have?

WITNESS:  I had a 9mm Parabelum, the capacity was 13 rounds and my shotgun which I had was a Parabelum shotgun with, the number was Hotel 11 Echo.

MR POTGIETER:  Did you keep all these weapons at your house?

WITNESS:  No, as I mentioned in my statement, Captain Botha told Inspector Swanepoel to fetch my shotgun at the police station and give me a hundred SSG rounds.  I want to state it here in public that an SSG bullet is extremely dangerous.  It is not like other bullets.  It is lethal, it kills immediately.  So in other words I was supposed to kill lots of people.

MR POTGIETER:  As far as the shooting incident itself is concerned, what kind of weapon did you use?

WITNESS:  It was the 9mm Parabelum.

MR POTGIETER:  Now that was your service pistol?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Was that the only firearm you had in your possession at home at that stage?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  When you fired the shot, were you in the street outside or where were you?

WITNESS:  Yes, I was outside in the street and I tried to arrest these people but the people ran away, I chased after them, I couldn't arrest the deceased so I fired a shot.  So it was outside in the street, I was not in my own yard.

MR POTGIETER:  What kind of training did you have as a municipal policeman in the handling of weapons?

WITNESS:  I went to Hammanskraal, the Hammanskraal Training College in the Northern Transvaal.  I spent three years, three months of training, also in the practice of shooting and communication skills, human relations, riot control etc.

MR POTGIETER:  And that was a three month course?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Now after the three months, were you then employed?

WITNESS:  Yes I was transferred to my station.

MR POTGIETER:  Now an ordinary policeman, how much training, how many months of training do they get?

WITNESS:  Six months of training.

MR POTGIETER:  So the period of training for the municipal policemen was half that of the ordinary South African Police?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Were you properly trained in handling a firearm during the three months?

WITNESS:  I will say that I am not a very good shot but I at least knew the mechanism of these weapons.  They train you, they say if you want to fire a shot you must hold your breath and mustn't breathe normally, you must actually hold your breath, aim your weapon, aim carefully and then you can fire the shot.

MR POTGIETER:  Now before receiving your three months training at Hammanskraal, did you know how to handle a weapon before that?

WITNESS:  Not at all.

MR POTGIETER:  So that was your first exposure to firearms?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Before this incident during which you shot this boy, had you handled or used the weapon in such a situation against people?

WITNESS:  Yes I had used my firearm at some stage, I was walking from the police station, I was attacked by people from the Paballelo location and I fired two warning shots at them and I then took my jacket and hung it over the gate of the church and after having fired the warning shots they ran away.  I went back to the police station but I forgot my jacket.  They then came back and took my jacket and burnt it so I had used my weapon before this particular incident.

MR POTGIETER:  So it was the second time that you actually used your weapon?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  After the shooting, did you then notice that you had shot a young boy?

WITNESS:  Yes and the moment he fell I ran towards him.  I thought I had only wounded him and I thought I could arrest him then and take him to a doctor, whatever, take a statement but when I got to him I saw that it was a young boy.

MR POTGIETER:  And did you notice that he was dead?

WITNESS:  Well at that stage I wasn't sure whether he was dead or not.

MR POTGIETER:  You just assumed that he was dead.  How did you feel?

WITNESS:  Yes that is actually the reason why I am here for the Commission today.  I want to express my, what I felt during the incident.  I felt very sad, it was a young boy in the prime of his life and I had just cut short his young life and what made me feel even worse was the fact that Warrant Officer Swanepoel congratulated me and said congratulations on your first murder.  That really hurt me.  I felt sad.  I was raised as a Christian and it really affected me badly emotionally and I felt that I wanted to end my employment as a municipal policeman.