Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm calling now Silimela Ngesi to take the witness stand.

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Ngesi, you have an affidavit in front of you, which is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that the affidavit which is in front of you and also before the Committee, that the affidavit was made by you and also abide by its contents?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as usual I will start with paragraph 7, I won't go through the other portions of the affidavit.  I'm reading from paragraph 7
"I was deployed in March in Welkom by the Director of Special Operations and Deputy-Director of Operations, Sipho Mulelane Thuma"
Now, Mr Ngesi, can you tell the Committee whether you knew Mr Thuma by the name which is in your affidavit, or is there any other name which you know him by?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, there is another name that I knew, the name was Sipho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that he's Mulelame Thuma, the surname is Thuma?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I didn't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell the Committee, when you were deployed by him, you said you were deployed by him in March in Welkom, what was your specific mission for, what was your instruction when you were deployed in Welkom?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The instructions that I got from this comrade was to take a taxi to Welkom, I would meet Comrade Khotle, that is Abel Khotle, I would meet him in Welkom in the township, in the black township, in the taxi rank.  When I got there, the comrade was already there, he was waiting for me in the taxi rank, but I don't remember the name of the township, but the township that I was staying in, the name is Themba.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to the Committee that the only instruction was that you go to Welkom and meet Abel Khotle, nothing else was said to you?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The instruction I got from Umtata was that everything else I was going to hear from Khotle, but from our camps, I knew that I was deployed to fight for my country, but I knew that I was going to get instructions or orders from Khotle.  I went to Welkom to fight for my country.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry for interrupting you, may we please stop this flashing, please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
"He provided me with accommodation in Welkom and Wesselsbron."
Can you explain to the Committee how did this happen?  Were you staying in Welkom and Wesselsbron, how, can you explain to the Committee how, what was happening?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: When I got to Welkom, I met the comrade and I spent two days in the hostel.  From there I went with him to Wesselsbron.  I then met the other comrade, Shermi, and I stayed with his friend, his friend was working in the mines and the house was empty, no-one was staying there, I stayed in that house and I made an area assessment before other comrades could arrive.  After that, after I left Welkom, or after I left Wesselsbron, I went back to Welkom, because I told him that I didn't like that place, I want to stay in Welkom.  He then helped me, he took me to where I wanted to stay, and in Welkom I was staying in a shack.  He would then come to me for certain things, when I wanted something from him, he would come as he was the regional commander of the Free State.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, I'm reading paragraph 8
"I used to commute between Welkom and Wesselsbron for purposes of identifying targets."
Can you tell the Committee how were you identifying targets, who gave you instruction to do that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: We received instructions from Comrade Khotle, as I knew that area, Wesselsbron, because I would visit that place frequently because there were also other comrades that were staying there, and the target that I am about today, I knew that area, because I used to stay there, it's near the taxi rank.  Everyone who was in the taxi rank would go and buy in that shop, even the police used to go to that shop and the AWB.  That's one of the targets that Silimela Ngesi wanted to start with in that area.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if there are no questions on that paragraph, I move to paragraph 9
"I confirm that on the day of the operation, I travelled from Welkom to Wesselsbron, with Sohane, the driver, Sibande and Sebinzile on the instruction of Abel Khotle.  He instructed us to meet Bhani in Wesselsbron and he will brief us about the operation to take place."
	Now, can you tell the Committee how did you go to, what mode of transport, whose transport was it you used to go to Wesselsbron from Welkom?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Comrade Khotle came to my place, together with Comrade Sohane, Dennis Sibande and Sebinzile.  They came to me with firearms.  Khotle used to keep the firearms, and he told that I would be going to Wesselsbron with those comrades.  He said to me the only person who was going to give me the instruction was Mangalisekile Bhani.

ADV SOGODI: Please slow down a bit, even for the interpreter, because we can't take the notes properly.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you go a little bit and tell them, but a little bit slower, to tell, I asked you how did you go to Wesselsbron, whose transport and who gave you instructions to go to Wesselsbron?  Just slowly, because also it's difficult to get it when you are fast, as a member of the Committee indicated.

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: As I've already said, Comrade Khotle is the one who issued the instruction to me.  He was in the company of the other comrades with the firearms.  He told me to go to Wesselsbron.  He told me that I was going to meet with Sipho.  Comrade Sipho was the one who was going to give me further instructions.   I was in Comrade Sohane's car, the Datsun 1600, from Welkom to Wesselsbron.  When we arrived there, Sipho was already waiting for us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let's go to paragraph 10
"The firearms were kept by me in Welkom and I took them to the car and I gave others in the car."
Can you explain that to the Committee?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, I kept the firearms in my place, but the only firearms that were with me were three, because the other comrade brought grenades and one pistol.  I took, those who were with me, I took them to the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now when you arrive at Wesselsbron ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Who were the others in the car, you're moving on from paragraph 10?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Excuse me?

MR MALAN: Are you still with paragraph 10?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I was still with paragraph 10, but you can ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: No, sorry, no, sorry then for the interruption.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now, at paragraph 10, the member of the Committee was about to ask a question about that, maybe I'll (indistinct), can you explain who the others were in the car when you went to Welkom, those who you gave them firearms?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: When we left for Wesselsbron, it was myself, Comrade Suko, and Dennis, the driver was Dennis, but he didn't have a firearm, and Sibande and Sebinzile.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, can I proceed?

MR MALAN: Can you just tell us, who was Comrade Suko?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: What Comrade are you talking about?

MR MALAN: You talked about yourself and Suko, who is Suko?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Sebinzile.

MR MALAN: Is that Sebinzile?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Suko is Sebinzile.

MR MALAN: And Dennis, is that Sibande?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, that's him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman?  Now, you arrived at Wesselsbron and you met Bhani, Mangalisekile Bhani, and he briefed you about the operation and you went to Wesselsbron Supermarket.  Can you then, in your own words, tell the Committee, what role did you play when you arrived at the supermarket, what did you do?