Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: I say it must have been fully stupid of the deceased to have attempted to get out of the kombi in the presence of all these police officers whilst the kombi was moving?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot say that, that is stupidity. I do not know what he thought or that he had been told that he was under arrest it could be that but I cannot say that it was stupidity.

CHAIRPERSON: And he knew that you were police officers?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you were armed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you would probably shoot him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the kombi was moving?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet he just went through the window?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Shosha didn't sound the warning that here is a man trying to get out of the kombi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not hear him talking.

CHAIRPERSON: And all you saw was this man who was already half way out through the window?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct

CHAIRPERSON: While the kombi was moving?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then held on to his legs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he kicked you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct and he slipped.

CHAIRPERSON: And he fell outside?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the kombi was moving at the time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was in motion but Bra Mos was breaking it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone assist you before the kombi came to a standstill?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Shabalala went out of the car as it was stopping. Because it was not moving fast at the time. It had just turned a corner. When the car was about to stop he jumped out.

CHAIRPERSON: But before Shabalala alighted from the kombi did anyone assist you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Shabalala says in his statement somewhere that he assisted you I think it is. Yes I think at page 50 paragraph 39 where he says
"The Transkeian policeman and I were holding onto Batandwa's legs who was by this time half way out of the kombi window. We were unable to hold him any longer and we let go and he fell out of the vehicle."

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was at the front seat so he jumped out of the car using the door of the front.

CHAIRPERSON: You were the Transkeian police in the car?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So what Shabalala is saying here is not correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It is not right.

CHAIRPERSON: When you shot at the deceased he was no longer running. He had come to standstill.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he facing you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was facing sideways.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Shabalala continued to shoot at the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He fell down?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Shabalala reloaded the magazine?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Continued to shoot at him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And how far was (...indistinct) from the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was quite near to the deceased. Just like we are sitting here.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) shooting directly at the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: At the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet the deceased didn't die there and then?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No he did not die at that spot.

CHAIRPERSON: He was taken to the charge office.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then from the charge office you were told to take him to hospital?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Then subsequent to these events you were then required to make a statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you wrote this statement in your own handwriting?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You then mentioned that you were assisted in the writing of this statement. You testified that you were being assisted by various persons when you wrote this statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the nature of the assistance that you were given?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The sort of assistance was such that I must not implicate the others because I had said that the one who had shot the most was Shabalala. And I was told that I must not explain it that way because he would then sink in court. That is the type of assistance I was getting. That we must make a cover-up. All of what happened at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you got the impression was intended to be covered up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say as I have said before that they had told us that he was a terrorist. And also the government I can say he was happy for it that we prepare for the destruction of the case.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to find out from you that as you were there being given this assistance what impression did you gain? What is it that they intended to conceal? Was it the fact that the deceased had been shot?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can only say it is that - the fact that he was shot and killed.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your statement you did mention though that he was shot by you and Shabalala.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I want to ask which one?

CHAIRPERSON: In that statement CR92/9/85 the so-called cover-up statement.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You know you are saying that what was intended to be concealed was that the deceased had been shot.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What I am saying to you is that but in the statement that you made which was intended to be a cover-up statement you mention the fact that yourself and Shabalala shot at the deceased.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So that wasn't concealed. The fact that he was shot was not concealed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I want to know. What is it that was supposed to be concealed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I would not know Sir. The only thing I know is that all of it was in preparation of the destruction of the case. All that was done then.

CHAIRPERSON: But did they tell you why?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They did not tell me Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: See in your statement for example or the so-called cover-up statement you mention that when the deceased came out of the house he was still wearing pyjamas. And that he was given the opportunity to go back and get dressed. Was he wearing pyjamas when he was there?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No he was not wearing pyjamas.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that included in your statement as part of a cover-up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is what I can say Sir because I did not write that in my statement. As I had said I did not speak directly to him. I talked with a slender person and then went back to the kombi. When he came out he came already clad into the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see this in your statement before you signed it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot remember whether I saw it or not Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read your statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: From your own knowledge how would making a statement that the deceased came out wearing pyjamas and was then allowed to go back and get dressed help to conceal the shooting? Do you know?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the reason why you left the kombi to go and participate in the chasing of the deceased and eventually shooting at the deceased was the fear that the askaris once they finish with the deceased they will come back and kill you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That occurred to me.