Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Let me ask you this way, were there any uprisingsat Kaotlahong by that time?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Do you mean during those days, yes there wereuprisings.

UNKNOWN: Can you please explain to us what the uprisingswere all about?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: There were rumours that the "marashi"were coming to Kaotlahong or Inkatha is coming to attack, Inkathais coming to attack the comrades.  All the residents of Kaotlahong,especially those who stayed at Mushingoville(?) because they forcefullysettled there at Kaotlahong.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any residents of Mushingovilleat Kaotlahong who were killed at that time according to your knowledge?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No, not according to my knowledge.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Segopa in his plea he explained thathe thought that these people who were killed belonged to Inkatha?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you know Inkatha members to be mostlyWhite members or Black members?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Inkatha members used to have relationshipswith White and they were working together with them.  Yes it istrue they were harassing the Kaotlahong community.

UNKNOWN: Were there any Inkatha people who attacked,who harassed people?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: This happened on many occasions when we werecomplaining about some things as residents and (tape 10B ends)...
 Plans, that is our plans as Kaotlahong residents so that theycannot achieve what they want to achieve.

UNKNOWN: How did they disturb you or what act didthey take to disturb you?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: They used to intimidate and threaten people,that is the residents of Kaotlahong.

UNKNOWN: What did they do actually to threaten thesepeople?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: They threatened them by saying that they wouldattack them so that they cannot achieve their objectives.

UNKNOWN: Please you are confusing Mr Mokabe.  Everytime when he tries to say something you start laughing and youmake such a noise and by so doing you confuse him and maybe youcause him not to remember what he was about to say.  Thank youMr Chairman.  Mr Mokabe please we want to understand what yourevidence is all about, just concentrate on what you are saying.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes Sir I will do so.

UNKNOWN: I am trying to find from you, or let me sayyou mean these people verbally threatened the residents?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Weren't there any acts that they were committing?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No.

UNKNOWN: Four people were killed on that day, nowthe applicant here, I mean Mr Segopa said to us he thought orsomeone said these people belonged to Inkatha that is why he tookpart in those killings.  Now my question to you is because thesepeople were White what can you say regarding that Mr Segopa couldhave thought that these people belonged to Inkatha, what can yousay about that?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: When one looks at the political climate thatprevailed during the 1990's or in 1990 Mr Segopa had to be frightenedbecause there were still threats that the "marashia"Inkatha will attack the residents, and I believed that, that theKaotlahong residents at that time were living under fear, theywere living with fear regarding those threats.

UNKNOWN: Regarding those threats that had been madeagainst them.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Thank you Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now I want to know were you living with herat that time?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes because I was a resident of Kaotlahong. I also lived with her because I didn't know what kind of peoplewere Inkatha people especially when they were on the rampage.

UNKNOWN: How did you think Inkatha was, or what kindof an organisation did you think Inkatha was regarding the rumours?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: According to my knowledge, in fact we didn'tknow what kind of people were Inkatha people.  Let me explainin this way, we never had an Inkatha branch at Kaotlahong andthat is why the residents of Kaotlahong did not know a thing aboutInkatha and that is why they didn't know what kind of people wereInkatha people.  We only used to hear about Inkatha.

UNKNOWN: I want to know whether these rumours couldmake it known to you whether Inkatha was a political organisationor a football organisation, I don't want to put words into yourmouth, please explain to the Committee.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: It was rumoured that they were killers whowould murder people wherever they go and they would brutally doso.

UNKNOWN: Where did you hear these rumours?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: We heard the rumours at Kaotlahong becausethere was another rumour of which I don't have the evidence andthe rumour was that the Inkatha and "marashia" ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Did you hear about Inkatha on the radio?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes Sir.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear about Inkatha from the newspapers?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: What was the other rumour you said you heardabout Inkatha and "marashia"?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: The rumour - may you please repeat your question?

JUDGE WILSON: You said you heard a rumour about Inkathaand "marasha" I asked you what the rumour was?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No I didn't hear a rumour about Inkatha or"marashia".  I would like to explain in the followingway.  There was a rumour of which I don't have any evidence orI don't know who told people about such rumours that the "marashia"or Inkatha are going to attack.  That is they are going to attackthe Kaotlahong residents.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mokabe I would like you to listen attentivelynow because this question has to be clarified.  I am not talkingabout the rumour that there is going to be an attack at Kaotlahong,I'm not talking about the rumour, I am talking about this groupcalled Inkatha.  I want to know what kind of organisation didyou know Inkatha as?  You said they were an organisation thatused to attack people?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes I said so.

UNKNOWN: Now who gave you the knowledge that Inkathais an attacking organisation, that is my question?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: I heard this over the radio, on the news andI heard this once more from the newspapers because I can reada newspaper.

UNKNOWN: Did people talk about Inkatha in your township?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes people used to talk about Inkatha in thetownship.

UNKNOWN: Did they say Inkatha was a good organisation?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No, they used to say many people hated theInkatha organisation.

UNKNOWN: Is there any organisation or meeting whereMr Minong briefed any people, you, about an incident concerningInkatha?  Were you there at such a meeting?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No I was not there at such a meeting.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKABE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mokabe did the ANC acknowledgethe killing of people in your area?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No it did not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is referred to as Inkatha, have you everseen it?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: During that time in 1990 I have not seen suchthing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You just hear people talking about Inkathaof  which you do not know about?  On the day of this incidenthave you seen Inkatha by then?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No I haven't.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On the day of these murders or before thenwere you attacked by Inkatha in your community?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before the day of the incident were you attackedby the "marashia" in your community?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This murder incident at what time would yousay it occurred if you still remember?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: I do not know what time it occurred, I didn'thave a watch by then.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you could remember was it around about sixo'clock in the afternoon or what time would you say it occurred?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No I do not have a vivid knowledge of that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As you are the member of the ANC as a marshallwhat we would call a self-defence unit do you know that?