Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

MR VISSER: I understand the sentiment, Mr Chairman, but if you'll allow two further questions you will see how it ties up with the training.  This is the only way how in which I know how to approach that issue, but I'll come to it momentarily, if you will just allow me a little leeway, you will see immediately where I'm going.  Mr Mkhize, I'm not quite sure that I understood your last question.  You said you committed the murders yourself.  Does that mean that you committed them without the assistance of anybody?  Is that what you're saying?

WITNESS:   Maybe I don't understand your question, because there are people with whom I've been sentenced and convicted.  Some are under the witness protection plan.  They are also involved on the very same crimes for which I have been sentenced.  Some were not arrested.  Therefore this makes it clear that I didn't commit these crimes alone.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, that is the point.  Can you just tell us now, without going any further, what the names of the people are that you committed the crimes together with?  In whose company you committed these crimes.  Is one of them Daluxolo Luthuli?

WITNESS:   Can I ask a question?

MR VISSER: /

MR VISSER: MR LYSTER

MR VISSER: 1B

MR LYSTER: I think just answer his answer and if there is something that you want to clarify, then you can ask.  Mr Visser, this - we don't - obviously we don't know how he is going to answer that question and he may not answer a question in this forum, we cannot permit him to answer questions in this forum where we don't know whether he is going to name people who haven't been given notice in terms of Section 30, as everyone here has and I think that in fairness to him and to those people who may be mentioned, that the evidence - the questions that you asked him - that you asked him now should be restricted only to evidence that he has already given.  He has not given any evidence whatsoever about murders committed or who he committed them with.  That will be given at a later stage and you obviously will have a full opportunity or an opportunity as you have now to put those questions to him, but we will only ask - allow questions to be answered relevant to this specific evidence and I must ask you therefore to restrict yourself to that - to his evidence which he has given this morning and yesterday.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I appreciate your viewpoint.  May I then, just for the information of the Committee, just to let you understand that I'm not wasting your time, tell you what I was going to be about.  The point about Mr Varney's representations to you has been that some of my clients, if not all of them, were instrumental in supporting the introduction of an offensive element, paramilitary element and, Mr Chairman, in our view and in our submission it is then of the utmost importance to first of all establish which component of the four components fell or falls within that definition of
 /Mr Varney.
1B Mr Varney.  I was going to draw your attention to the fact that this witness actually falls outside that ambit, because he was a member of the contra-mobilisation and I was going to suggest to you, Mr Chairman, on the questions which I was going to ask him now that quite clearly the intention could never have been on any approach that that group was intended to be earmarked to be hit squads and that is why, unfortunately, I had to start in anticipating who - because what is crucial to the whole basis of this question is who acted with him.  Now if you feel that it might be unfair to him, he may have applied for amnesty, I don't know, it may very well be an unfair question and it may be an unfair question to people who have not been given notice.  I do appreciate that and I bow to that situation, but in the situation which has presented itself now, Mr Chairman, I am going to be compelled to leave the whole of that issue for later then.  I can simply then not continue with it in a sensible way.

MR LYSTER: I think that will be appropriate and that when he has given his evidence next week about what he did, who he did it with, in terms of what group he saw himself as participating in, he can be questioned on that and if other counsel present please bear that in mind.  We are going to restrict ourselves to evidence given today and yesterday and obviously, the sorts of remarks that you were making a minute ago would be appropriate by way of a - also by way of a final submission, closing argument sort of thing in which you can make those points arising from Mr Varney's written submission, arising from this witness' evidence and from any points which may arise through cross-examination.
/
MR VISSER
1B

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it's an eminently practicable ruling and we accept that.

MR VISSER: Mr Mkhize, just on the question of the weapons training which you underwent at Camp Hippo in the Caprivi, because you know what we're talking about when we talk about Camp Hippo, don't you?

WITNESS:   No, I'm hearing for the first time from you.

MR VISSER: How do you want to refer to the place where you were transported to, to receive training?  What do you want to call that place?

WITNESS:   I won't like it to give it any name.  I knew and I have explained that we couldn't even see the road - the road signs on the road, but I will say that I do accept it as Camp Hippo if that's what you knew.

MR VISSER: All right, Mr Mkhize, well let's just then refer to it and we'll know what we're talking about.  Now at that camp, did you receive weapon training with G3 rifles?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR VISSER: Browning pistols?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR VISSER: HMCs?  And, Mr Chairman, that is an abbreviation for Hand Machine Carbines, of course.  HMCs?

WITNESS:   There is something I don't understand.  At Camp Hippo or at the camp where we trained, we were never trained with regards to South African firearms.  The few that you have just mentioned, the arms with which I've been trained later, I'd like to clarify, it looks there's a confusion.  I did training with regards to the G3s and the other arms while - not the G3s, other rifles while I was in the police training, so the G3, I got the training while I was in the camp.  The HMC training came later while I was undergoing the police training.  I'm referring to the training when I was trained to become a constable.  Not the first one.

MR VISSER: /It's

MR VISSER: 1B It's only G3 training which - that we had during the first training and never did during the police training.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Mkhize, I thought we made it quite clear to which camp we're referring to, but I understand what you're saying.  You say that you were divided into groups or platoons, as you've put it.  Do you remember that?  And that was in the last month of your stay at Camp Hippo.

WITNESS:   We were divided long ago.  As soon as we arrived at the camp, we were divided into platoons and there were four platoons, as I've explained and each platoon had about fifty people.

MR VISSER: Well, let me put the facts to you.  You received basic training for three months and then you started with advanced training and in the last month you were divided into four groups and let me tell you who they were.

MR VISSER: MR ??: Sorry, with respect, Mr Visser, I think you are misleading the witness, with respect.  Your evidence was that he was divided into four - well, your question initially was that he was divided into four platoons in the last month.  Don't confuse platoons with groups.  The platoons were fifty each for training purposes.  That's very different to the four groups which consisted of differing numbers of people at a different stage, so let's not confuse the witness, please.