Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1999-12-13

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: He was first assaulted.

UNKNOWN: Would you say that the people of this area, whether by fear or whatever it may have been, did they look up to you, did they look to you for guidance and instructions on what to do?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: They respected me and they did look up to me.  They would follow whatever I suggested.

UNKNOWN: So when the violence broke out in October of 1990, like you said, did you have occasion to kill other people, to counter-attack on attacks?  What other activities did you carry out to drive forward the cause of the ANC?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: In October 1990, we reported to the regional office of the ANC that we were being attacked.  We were informed that some people would be called into the area to try and intervene.  Smu Ndabele was indeed sent.  He came and requested that the fighting cease.  I also approached the SADF and held discussions with them ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Sir, I'm sorry to cut you short but my question would be, did you carry out any attacks on them, physically go with a firearm or a knife or something and attack an IFP member, prior to this incident?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: No, we had never attacked the IFP.  We did not.

UNKNOWN: So then is it correct to say that this was done on the spur of the moment in front of a huge crowd who you knew you had under your control and you just used witchcraft and whatever else could come to you, to incite them to just kill these two innocent people?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That is because people were attacked and were killed by individuals like Mr Ngobo.

UNKNOWN: But Sir, it is your own evidence that from the period beginning January 1991 to April 1991, there was no violence anymore, there was no killings anymore.  It is your own evidence that that is the situation, so you cannot use that as an excuse now.  What was the real reason for you having committed that?  It wasn't a counter-attack.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Because of the attacks that people had suffered from October to December 1990, they were attacked day and night and some died.  From that period of January to April people were still afraid, they were still living in fear.  They were living in fear of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why do anything to stir up trouble again? Why call upon people at a large public meeting to start assaulting with sjamboks a man and a woman you thought were IFP supporters?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: We had previously held a meeting in Mr Mxenga's office to the effect that the area should be developed.  That was why I then called a meeting subsequent to that.  That was a community meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and at this community meeting you sent people to search the house belonging to these two people who were subsequently killed.  When these people returned, you ordered the crowd to assault them and you then ordered them to kill them.  Is that not so?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there had been no other killings, political killings in your area for four months.  Till you started it.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: ANC members were killed from October to December 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we've heard that before.  I also understand from the statements you put before us, that the deceased and his wife attended the meeting, they were there with the others.  Is that correct?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR LAX: He wasn't armed at the meeting, he didn't come with his gun to the meeting.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: No.

MR LAX: Is that the behaviour of someone who is going to disrupt your meeting?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: When the meeting had already started, he is the one who displayed tendencies to the effect that he was not in agreement with the rest of the meeting.

MR LAX: But surely meetings are about agreements and disagreements, by people expressing different opinions. Surely that's the purpose of meetings.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That is correct.

MR LAX: That's not a reason to kill somebody.  Just because you and I have a difference of opinion doesn't mean you want to kill me.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, that is true but only if his sentiments were of someone who was just debating an issue at a meeting.  His way of disagreement was to the effect that he just wanted the meeting to be disrupted, to be over with.

MR LAX: But how could one person's opinion disrupt a whole community?  If you had all agreed that you didn't think that his proposal was a good one, you would have just carried on in your own way anyway.  Not so?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That is correct.  We could have but it was obvious that he did not even want us to pursue the aims of the ANC.

MR LAX: But isn't it so that he had lived through the very same attacks that everyone else lived through?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: I would say yes, he could have been attacked because he resided in the area, but I do not recall him being injured or suffering any attack.

MR LAX: Well not the whole community was injured, surely.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Please continue.  Sorry.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
	Did you feel angry at the fact that somebody else was interfering in this meeting and giving an opinion without listening to you?  Were you angry at Oswald?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, it did not settle well with me.

UNKNOWN: Was it out of this anger that you instructed your people to kill him?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: I would say yes, but it was not just myself who was angered, everybody at the meeting was angered by his sentiments.

UNKNOWN: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Majola, there's just one aspect that I'd really like clarity on.  You've stated to us here today that you instructed the crowd to kill the deceased, Oswald, is that correct?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Did you give specific instructions as to how that should be done, or did you leave that to the crowd's discretion?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: They would use their own discretion on what to do.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Were you not shocked when you heard the gun go off?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Everyone was shocked because we did not know that he was going to use the gun.

MS PATEL: Okay.  So you didn't expect him to be killed, not so?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Please repeat that question.

MS PATEL: You didn't expect him to be killed by being shot, not so?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: We started assaulting him, anything could have happened to him thereafter.

MS PATEL: Was he being interrogated while he was being assaulted, or did you interrogate him first and then assault him?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: We first interrogated him before he was assaulted.  We questioned him on the firearm as well as on the umuti.

MS PATEL: You see why I ask you these questions, because nowhere in the statement - and I'm reading on page 14 of the bundle, Honourable Chairperson, nowhere in that statement do you say that you actually instructed the crowd to kill the deceased in this matter.  In fact, if one looks at the second-last paragraph on page 14, it appears from what you state there that you were still considering options, you in fact asked Oswald what should be done to him and then the crowd responded and next best thing he's being shot.  There's no indication that you then after interrogating Oswald, then giving the crowd to be killed, that he should be killed.  What is your comment?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Mbuyiselwa was standing behind the deceased and at that point everyone was angry.  That was why he just shot at him, because he was directly behind him and we were all standing or sitting around him.