Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: What Mr Pretorius is saying is not true, and I don't think I can debate that with him, except for telling him that he's not telling the truth, because he does not know what was happening.  Maybe if he can find out from the Attorney-General as well as the judge who conducted the inquest, he will discover that what he's saying is absolutely not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pretorius, you're accusing the witness of lying and he's saying you are not telling the truth, where does that get us?

MR PRETORIUS: Well, Honourable Chairman, I can easily prove that I'm telling the truth if I can just refer you to page 1086 of the record, but I'll leave it at that because that will be addressed in argument before you.  Besides that I've got no further questions besides stating that anyone that I appeared for in relation to Mr Chonco or the two Dlamini's deny that they ever attacked Lancet Hall.

UNKNOWN: Just one question, Chair, you were asked by - about the Police Officer, Mr Potgieter, and then a question was asked by the Chairperson as to - the Chairperson stated that you had been at the gate the entire time, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The basement.

UNKNOWN: I mean the basement, can you explain to the Committee at what stage you went to the basement, because according to your evidence, let me give you an opportunity to explain what time you got to the basement.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: As I've already explained that after the incident at the foyer Mr Khumalo came to me and told me that I should go to the basement and help the other guard who was at the basement, that is the late Vusi Vilakazi, that is when I left the foyer and went to the basement.  I cannot say whether it was 08h00, 08h15 or 08h30, but what I'm sure about is that it was after 08h00, that is after the incident at Jeppe Street.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Simelane, when you gave your evidence you told us that there was a time where you were a metre or two from the gate, do you still remember that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I did not hear that question.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you gave your evidence you said that there was a time when you were about a metre or two from the gate, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That's just an estimation.  Maybe it's when I was telling you that I was patrolling, yes, there is such a time.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Now at the time when you started shooting, do you still remember as to how far you were from the group that you were shooting at?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I wouldn't say exactly as to how far or near I was, but I think I can estimate, it could have been 4 - 5 metres from the gate at the time that I started shooting.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Now at the time that you were shooting amongst the marchers, were there any who had already gained entry?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct, the gate was not slightly open.  There was some space for people to gain entry, that's when I started shooting.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And when these people came in were they coming in forcefully one by one or in what manner?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct, they were running, they were angry and they were entering forcefully.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And the ones who had come in were armed?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Now was it at that time that you started shooting?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct.  As I've already pointed out that my gun was a hip level, I pointed my gun towards the gap that had been open and through which those people were forcefully entering.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Were you able to see after you had fired as to what happened to the group that had already gained entry?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Though I don't remember quite clearly, what I can say is that they got scattered and immediately after having fired the shot, when the other group dispersed I poked my gun once more and I retreated, and I told myself that if they proceed towards me I will fire once more.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And what about the ones who were inside already?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: They turned and ran away.

MR CURRIN: Just one aspect, Mr Simelane, this gate you're talking about is presumably in a driveway of some sort that goes down into the basement, you've said it's a parking garage, is that right?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR CURRIN: How far from the entrance where the pavement is, in other words where the building would stop, is this gate into the driveway?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: The driveway starts from the street or from the road up to where the building starts, then you past the first gates, that is the ordinary gates that are locked manually, then you proceed into the building.  As you get into the building, you get these electronically operated gates which are right inside the building itself.

MR CURRIN: The question I'm asking you is, how far do you have to go right into the building before you come to the gate, approximately?  Could you point out for us here, if you're not sure the actual distance.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I don't think I'll be able to do that because it's a long time since I haven't been to the building, but it's not a long distance, maybe let's say from the gate to the pavement it could be 3 - 4 metres, that's just an estimation, I'm not very positive about that.

MR CURRIN: ...(inaudible) one car width, two car widths?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: It a two car driveway because when the other car comes in the other one may get out.

MR CURRIN: How far roughly were you away from the crowd, from the gate, let's say the gate?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: It could have been 4 - 5 metres, that's just a rough estimation, but I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now and resume in 15 minutes.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, that concludes the oral evidence which we intend presenting to the Committee at this stage and we reserve our right in relation to matters that we may have to canvass with oral evidence, depending on what the objectors do, there are a number of matters however that we want to place before the Committee.  The first matter is that there are three short videos which we
want to show, because that is the real evidence in respect of which there are two transcripts in bundle "B", and the first one that we want to show, the transcript appears on page 94 which we would ask you to follow.  It is necessary in our submission to place the real evidence before the Committee, which is the video.  It relates to a speech made by Mr Ndlovu, the organiser, the man that made the application.  It shows the real purpose of this march out of his own mouth, Mr Chairman.  We will ask you to turn to page 94 of bundle "B" and if you could look at the video, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when did you propose showing the video?

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, Mr Chairman, with your leave.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Apart from the video you mentioned that there are certain - the other matter that you want to place on record.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and we have also prepared another bundle with photographs and statements which explain the ballistics evidence which our learned friend Mr Berger is going to present after we have shown these three videos, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: The purpose of the video is to show what Mr Ndlovu had to say of and concerning the purpose of the march.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(inaudible) Library Gardens before the shooting at Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: That is the first ...(inaudible).  May I ask the Committee to please turn to page 87 of bundle "B" which is another transcript.  We ask - the purpose of this is the attitude of Mr Ndlovu ...(intervention)