Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not know.

ADV PRIOR: Then I don't understand why you are referring, or why it was necessary to refer to that incident.  In what context are you placing that?

MR LAX: Mr Prior, just to be fair to the witness, I think he was trying to respond to the question put by my colleague to try and equate the killing of black children and the killing of white children.  It didn't have anything specific to do with the change or the instruction that he got to go on that mission persay.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I understand - if the suggestion is, in his mind it made no difference because the SADF were killing black children then he must say that.  Is he saying that as a reprisal - I don't think he says that but he may be trying to say that, that as an act of reprisal white children were then targeted to make up for what the SADF did.
	But it's unclear as to why that incident was being referred to and I think it needs to be put into context.  Maybe the Committee member who raised it, Advocate Gcabashe, can maybe help us on that.

MS GCABASHE: It's really just to put it into a context Mr Ncamazana, just for us to understand you, what you learnt, what you lived and what therefore made you do certain things and discuss certain things.  That is all I was really trying to find out, how you related to your life, your experiences, to your organisation.
	Whether you discussed some of these things and that is what coloured your outlook on life and the way you followed orders.  I was just trying to understand you.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS GCABASHE: But what you haven't clarified to us is whether that type of incident is what made you do some of the things you did or as suggested by Advocate Prior, you haven't said it was a reprisal, maybe that's what it was.  You haven't really said to us: "It is because of these experiences that I did some of these things", we haven't got the connection yet.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The reason that I was ordered to do these things, I cannot tell you because the commander can answer that question.  I was only following orders.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your version, you never discussed anything, you never decided to do anything, you never came to any decision, you just carried out orders?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never thought to question those orders even when you had heard that they seemed to be contrary to PAC policy, is that so?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I could not query things.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I want to just move on.  The weapons used in all these attacks, and I'm not going to deal with each separately, the weapons that were used, were they all provided by your commander, Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: And you mentioned in paragraph 6.6 of your affidavit, at page 51 of the prepared bundle, that you phoned Mtutuzeli Mamma, code name Matura, at Mamma's Restaurant.  That was to report the attack, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Did you actually speak to Matura after the attack or did someone else do that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The one who was phoning, who held the phone in his hand was the unit commander.  When he phoned he said he wanted to speak to Mr Matura and when he was called he then talked with him and told him everything.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I take cognisance of the fact that he initially referred to the attack on the minibus, the teachers, it wasn't specifically prepared but may I with the Committee's permission, in the time that I have available till Friday, if there were no gross violations of human rights, to notify either the school or anyone involved if they are interested and then to deal with this specific matter during this hearing?
	My information to date, I haven't received any information that there were any fatalities in this incident.  So with the Committee's permission I will comply with the Act insofar as notice goes and that this matter then can form part of his application.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, I did point out to Advocate Prior that the application for this seems to somehow have slipped into this bundle of documents as well.  I wasn't too sure whether it was going to be dealt with or not.  Neither of the applicants can say whether there were fatalities or anything so I don't have any problem with Mr Prior dealing with it at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I'd like to move on to the Bahai Church attack, and I'm following the chronology of your affidavit.   Your colleague and co-applicant, Mr Mbambo, is it correct that during these attacks he was not a member of APLA or the PAC?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I have not proof of that because I only met him there then.

ADV PRIOR: Well, is it not correct that after the Bahai incident your group was chastised for taking Mr Mbambo along, by Jimmy Jones, saying that he wasn't APLA, he wasn't a member of APLA?  Is that not correct?

MR LAX: Sorry, the channels are getting swopped here unfortunately, we're getting your discussion with the witness.  If you wouldn't mind just correcting that please.

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat your question Sir, I apologise for that.

ADV PRIOR: Was there never - sorry, I just seem to recall in the evidence that was presented and the statements and the confessions and the documents that form part of the bundle, that after the Bahai matter where Mbambo was present and you went back and reported to Jimmy Jones, that there was some form of rebuke, that Mbambo wasn't a member of APLA and why did he go along, why was he allowed to participate in that attack.  And I'm just mentioning that in support of my suggestion to you that he was not a member of APLA at that stage, he wasn't part of your group, officially a part of your group.  Do you understand what I'm driving at?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Which attack?

ADV PRIOR: The Bahai Faith Centre.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said proof to that I did not have.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.

MR LAX: Just for the record.  On page 53 at paragraph 7.6, that's where they were instructed to take him back with them and he says so there.

ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

MR LAX: Page 53, paragraph 7.6.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, that's not the reference that I'm alluding to.  May I just be given a moment, I think it was done in the other applicant's ...[intervention]

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, can I be of assistance here?  The situation - what Advocate Prior is referring to is actually a statement that was made that was annexed to the initial amnesty application which the applicant made.  It was a statement that was made prior to the trial of the Highgate hotel and the Da Gama incident which was held in East London.
	Mr Chairman, you will see that the affidavit which starts at page 49, of this applicant, is a supplementary affidavit wherein he says that the application that was initially submitted with its supporting documentation is not what he wanted to say to the Truth Commission, in fact this was.
	So I think, possibly if Advocate Prior could refer the applicant to the fact that this was actually the statement that he made prior to that hearing, it might give some clarity.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, I'm indebted to my learned friend.  I've actually found the place in the bundle and it may assist.  It begins and 14(h) and it is indeed a statement attached to his initial amnesty application.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, just for the record, this was the confession that was made by him?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.
	The last sentence, I just want to get clarity on this.  I quote:
"At the house of Jimmy Jones he was given a report that a church in Mdantsane had been attacked"
This is referring to the Bahai Church.
"They also introduced me as a person that was  that, wanting to join them.  Jimmy Jones told my friends that they were not supposed to take me with and that I must hand my smoke grenade back which I did"