Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

MR LAX: The way this is worded says that you went there and you did it, not that you were prevented from doing it, so my problem is that as Vice-Chairperson of that Youth Brigade, you held planning meetings, you say that in your evidence and in your affidavits, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR LAX: And in order to plan to do something you must know there's the potential to be successful, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes it is possible to succeed and it is also possible not to succeed.

MR LAX: Now I want to turn to another issue.  The affidavit that is contained in these papers that ends at page 42 and starts at page 36, you signed that on the 3rd June 1998, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: So that at the time you signed that affidavit you remembered all the things that are contained in that affidavit, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not understand the question.

MR LAX: Well, when you sign an affidavit, you are asked whether you know and understand it's contents, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR LAX: So you knew the contents of that affidavit when you signed it on the 3rd June 1998?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: Therefore you remembered the contents at that stage, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR LAX: What I want to know is, what has happened in the last month that's made you forget a number of the issues that appear in this affidavit?  How come you've suddenly forgotten quite a number of the issues that appear in this affidavit?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What is written in here, sir, are issues that pertain to things that happened some years ago.  Just because the date reflected is recent does not mean that this happened only recently, it happened over six years ago.

MR LAX: You see my point, Mr Mthembu, is this - when you signed this affidavit you remembered all the things you mentioned in this affidavit and you swore on oath that you did actually know them, are you with me?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I understand.

MR LAX: Now in the interleading months you signed that between the time you signed it and the time you came before us, you've suddenly forgotten some of the facts referred to in this affidavit and I'm trying to understand why, what has happened, what has made you to forget things that you swore you knew?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: With regards to that sir, I would not have any other explanation to offer except for what I've just explained.

MR LAX: Now, I want to just turn to another issue and that is according to your evidence you were in Boipatong for between half an hour and an hour?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR LAX: Does that time period include the time it took for you to leave the hostel, go to Boipatong, be there and then return back to the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was explaining the time from which we entered Boipatong.

MR LAX: Yes, so that's only from the time you entered?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: And in that time you were there you can only remember three or four things that you did?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: Well please explain this to me because I find this very difficult to believe.  I find it difficult that somebody could be in a place for over half and hour, to be involved in some events that you remember very clearly down to the minutest detail, like helping the children, thinking about whether to put them in a wardrobe, changing your mind, realising that that's not a good idea, then putting them under the bed, remembering that you even made sure that you left after colleagues so that no harm would come to them - that sort of detail you remember, the rest is just blank, there just seems to me no explanation for this.  What I'm saying is, not that I don't believe you, I find it hard to understand how you can remember some things in such immense detail and the rest is just blank, so I want you to try and help me understand how this is possible.  Are you with me?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand.  With regards to that I can explain that when I was there I may not be able to recollect some of the things that happened or some of the things that were done by my colleagues which I did not witness.  There are things that I remember, those that I have explained before the Committee.

MR LAX: What I'd like you to try and do now is, just say you come over the foot bridge, you remember that, crossing the foot bridge?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I remember.

MR LAX: Do you still have that map in front of you, can you show me where the foot bridge is on that map, if it is on that map?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot see it from the map.

MR LAX: Is the foot bridge on the east of Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It is on the west towards Kwamadala Hostel.

MR LAX: So it's - I can't actually see the street that forms the - on my copy it's not very clear.  There's a street that runs along the entire western side of Boipatong.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you - it's looks like Tambo Street but you can see it on the map, it tends to run right from the top corner where the words Kwamadala with an arrow are written, all the way down to the bottom, can you see that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir, I see it.

MR LAX: Now at what point at that street did you enter Boipatong, can you remember?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think we entered through that direction, I think the bridge should be on this side.

MR LAX: You're sort of pointing into a line with Umsimvuvu Street, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR LAX: And would that be the main entrance into the township or is that just the place where you entered into the township?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think it's the route that we used into the township.

MR LAX: Right, now at some point the whole group of you, however many hundred there were, split up and there were two leaders of, according to some of your colleagues, there were two groups.  What do you remember of that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Because we were a very large group, we separated into groups when we went into the township.

MR LAX: Well, did you separate into many groups or into two groups or into three groups?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not be able to explain it because if we - when we entered the township, we just entered as a group.

MR LAX: Well, you see your colleagues say that they broke up into two distinct groups under the leadership of two individuals, each group.  One group was under Tjonjo's leadership and the other was under Mkhize's leadership - that's what your colleagues say.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I understand that sir.

MR LAX: You weren't part of any of those groups, you just went your own way?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I explained before that I was Tjonjo and everybody when we went to attack.

MR LAX: Well, what I'm trying to understand is, how did that separation happen, did you stop, did the two of them say "I want half this side, I want half that side, half of you must follow me, half you must go the other way - these things don't just happen on their own, somebody must stop and something has to happen, that's what we're trying to understand, that's why I'm asking you to see if you can help us.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We did not stop and decide who was going with who, I think it just happened that when we entered the township, some people took one route and the other group took the other route.

MR LAX: Okay, now as you entered the township then, one group took one route and another group took another route, is that what you're saying?  Or different routes in the plural?