Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: I discovered that these two people, and we were three and they were two, and where we went to fetch the ammunition, I was supposed to go with another one, because in many instances I would not go alone.  There should be one member of the unit who would accompany me to that place.  That is why Ntjolo had to leave with Neti, and that we should leave, that is why we went to pass at Neti's place.

MR LAX: So do I understand correctly that you went there to pick up an extra guard, to assist you to guard them while you went off to look for further ammunition?  Is that what you're saying?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But why was it necessary for another guard to be obtained?  You already Mkhwanazi there and Ntjolo.

JOHN RADEBE: It was necessary that Samuel Neti should remain with Ntjolo.  Myself and Abraham Mkhwanazi should leave together.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  You are only going there in order to get ammunition, why was it necessary for you to be accompanied by Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: There would be a place where we would store our arms.  I have no right to go there alone.  I should be accompanied by another comrade, because if I go there alone I would not get anything.  That is why it was necessary to go with Abraham Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence is not that you stored arms.  You were looking for ammunition and you went from people after people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't pressed the button for the translation.

CHAIRPERSON: You had to go from Mr Sipapo's place for him to assist you with ammunition, not because you stored your ammunition at his place.  Is it not so?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.  In fact there would be no-one whom I would go to any community member because we used to address these issues in our meetings, that there will be no person who should go to our assistant alone, because tomorrow I will get there on my personal reasons, because maybe one of my friend is looking for that ammunition, then I would take my friend there and collect them.  That is why there should be a comrade who would accompany me, as members of the defence unit were known.

MR LAX: Does that mean you were not known as a defence unit member?

JOHN RADEBE: That is why I'm saying as we were known as members of the self defence unit I would go to that particular place to look for assistance in terms of arms alone, or  ammunition, alone.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the interpretation was incorrect because it came out as, as because SDU members were known.  That's how it came out.

JOHN RADEBE: They were known.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I think for the record that should be corrected.  That's not what you said.  You said as SDU members were known, not unknown.

INTERPRETER: The interpretation was, they were known.

MR LAX: Sorry, I'm still confused.  Please Advocate, stop hitting your button.  You cut me off every time you do.  When you're ready to talk, you can press the button.  I'm just puzzled here because I'm not understanding you properly.  Why was it necessary for two of you to go every time if you were known to the community?

JOHN RADEBE: The community knew us ourselves as members of the unit.  We have our own way of operating.  That is, in terms of the code of conduct.  Because for example I would have a friend who is not known by the community, then I would go to that particular place, perhaps Mr Sipapo or somebody, and give me the ammunition.  That is not the way we used to operate, but something of that sort would happen.  That is why we did not find ourselves in that particular situation that one comrade would collect ammunition and misuse them.

MR LAX: But, if there were two comrades and you both had some ulterior motive you could still get away with it.  What difference would it make?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't think so.

MR LAX: I still don't understand, but carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

JOHN RADEBE: Then I went with Abraham Mkhwanazi.  Our ANC office was in Hollywood Night Club.

MR LAX: Can we just clarify something?  So when you left with Mkhwanazi, you left Neti and Ntjolo guarding the two ladies, and you went off to Hollywood, is that right?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Please continue.

JOHN RADEBE: In Hollywood we met comrade Stanley, and I informed him that we caught the two people, these two, these particular two people.  Then we are going to kill them.  Then he instructed us that we should do the good job, so that we would be able not to be arrested.  I told him that we would not make a mistake, they would be killed.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you explain to Stanley who you were talking about, the people you were talking about?  Did you explain to him who were the people that you were talking about?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I did, that it is Hapile and we used to call Elsie Mandayi.  That is why he did not ask many questions, only told us to do the good job.

MS MOLOISANE: Will you explain to the Committee who this Stanley is.  Why was it necessary to talk to Stanley about Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena?

JOHN RADEBE: Stanley was the chairperson of the ANC.  He was a member of, he was the chairperson of the ANC youth league.  Stanley is, was there before when they were assaulted, in regard to their Inkatha activities.  That is why it was necessary for me to inform him.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, may I just get clarity on this.  I seem to have read something in the judgment of Mr Goldblatt Justice, that Mr Stanley, I can't recall, but you said Stanley was the branch secretary of the ANC.  Are you certain that he was the chairperson of the ANC?

JOHN RADEBE: He had two portfolios.  I don't know as to whether he has already changed to another position, but then I knew that he was the secretary and he was the chairperson at various stages.  I don't remember when was he the chairperson or the secretary.  That is why I'm not able to verify as whether, at this particular time, he was the chairperson or the secretary.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you gave evidence before Justice Goldblatt, did you say that Stanley was the branch secretary.  And that is at page 3 of the judgment.  I just recall reading something which is contrary to what you are saying now in your viva voce.

MR LAX: Page 3 line 30, it goes over the page onto page 4 of the judgment, first line.

JOHN RADEBE: I don't know as to whether you understand me the way I am trying to explain, because usually we would have elections and the committee would be changed, and a person would be moved from one position to another position.  That is why I am not able to verify, because even the person who  was interpreting, maybe he was the one who made a mistake as to whether he was the chairperson on the secretary, because I was not sure that, but he was an office bearer of the branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you or did you not say, during your testimony, at Mr Neti, Mkhwanazi and Ntjolo's trial, say that Stanley was the branch secretary?

JOHN RADEBE: I did.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all I wanted to find out.  Are you now sure that he was the chairperson, because in your viva voce evidence you say he is chairperson and you have not suggested any doubt about his portfolio?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I verify that he was the chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the ANC youth league?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Could he also held the portfolio of being a secretary of the branch of the ANC, not necessarily the ANC youth league?

JOHN RADEBE: He was the secretary of the ANC youth league, and when we elected again, we, when portfolios were shuffled, then he became the chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you went to him to advise him of this incident for which you are seeking amnesty, are you sure he was then chairperson of the ANC youth league?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, he was the chairperson of the ANC youth league.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.