Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

MS GOBODO: Welcome again to the second day of our hearings here in Paarl.  Before we start I'd like to welcome a few people - groups and it there's anybody whom we did not mention, please forgive us.  We're just mentioning those we have seen.  
 Firstly I'd like to welcome Aunty Ray, Ray Alexander whom we all know - especially people of Paarl all know - for her contribution in the struggles of Paarl, particularly her involvement in the Labour Movement.  Thanks for coming Aunty Ray.
 And we would like give a very special welcome to the girl from Sense Ci - Sense Ci Prints in Cape Town.  A very warm welcome to you all, and thank you Vivian - Vivian Harbour arranged for them to come.  Thanks Vivian for making it possible for these girls to come.  We welcome you very much.
 We also would like to welcome Mr Hanny from Stellenbosch University and welcome to you all  today.  
 Wendy is going to give a few housekeeping announcements, thanks Wendy.

WENDY ORR: I want to explain to you how the translation equipment works and to start off by apologizing that there's not enough equipment for every one in the audience and to say that if you understand the language that is being used by the witness, please pass your - your headphones and receiver onto someone who does not understand so that as many of us as possible can participate fully in the proceedings.
 Also if you want to sit very close to your next door neighbour, two of you can listen off one headset.  So it's one way of bringing people together.  The translation is available in 3 languages  English, Afrikaans and Xhosa and there's a channel button on the side of this little device.  Channel 1 is Afrikaans, channel 2 is English and channel 3 is Xhosa.  And then there's a volume button  on the other side.
 The mechanisms which actually transmit the translation are at the back of the stage, over here so it helps if you can position your receiver to be pointing to one of these black boxes.  If the sound isn't to good just try moving the receiver around a little bit.  Please will you leave the headsets on your chair when you leave the hall at tea time and lunch time.  They've of no use to you outside and the devices need to be recharged, they run off - off a battery which needs to be charged.  So if you take it away the battery simply runs flat and the device is absolutely useless.  
And if I can also ask that anyone who has a cell phone please to turn it off while you're in the hall and the proceedings are going one, thank you.

MS GOBODO: Thank you very much.  I would like to introduce the panel to you, but before I do I just want to quickly welcome again the group of interns, Masters Clinical Interns from Stellenbosch University.  Thank you for coming again.
 On my extreme left we have Rev Nxhebise Xundu who comes from the Eastern Cape, has generously afforded his time to come and assist us here.
 On my needed left we have Dr Wendy Orr.  Wendy has the office in Cape Town, our Truth Commission office in Cape Town.
 And on my right we have Ms Glenda Wildschut who's  like Dr Orr a member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee and at the Cape Town office.
 And we have Prof Piet Meiring - some of you may know Piet - Piet has been attending some of our meetings in Paarl.  We've often invited him to some of the meetings, both in Paarl and in Stellenbosch.  Piet has also been kind to offer his time to assist  us in this process.
And  finally we have Adv Denzil Potgieter who is a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and also a Commissioner based in the Cape Town office, thank you.              
 We will start - oh and I am Pumla.  I am Pumla, I'm chairing today's proceedings for the morning session.  I am also a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee based in the Western Cape in Cape Town, thank you.
 We will start this morning by calling upon Maria Carollisen, could the briefer bring her up please.

WENDY ORR: Good morning Ms Carollisen, welcome.  It's not easy being the first person cause everyone's watching you to see how you do it, so you will set the example for the day.
 I'm - before I hand you over to Piet Meiring who's going to help you tell your story, I need to ask you to stand to take the oath.
MARIA CAROLLISEN Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much, Prof Piet Meiring will now lead your evidence.

PROF MEIRING: Good morning Ms Carollisen, it is very nice to have you here this morning.  Could we please speak Afrikaans to each other.

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, we may.

PROF MEIRING: Are you here from Paarl?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, I am from Paarl.

PROF MEIRING: You are going to tell us the story - the very heartbreaking story of your son Vivian who was shot and killed in December 1985 in Lesotho.  But just as an introduction - just before we begin would - wouldn't you please tell us about your family, what you're doing at the moment, what you're busy with and so forth.

MS CAROLLISEN: At the moment I am a housewife, I am at home and I'm basic  [indistinct] at home.  I would have loved to have had my granny here but I see she's not here yet.  Maybe she can join me a bit later.

PROF MEIRING: Would you like her to join you on the stage?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, she's not here yet, but she'll probably be here a bit later.

PROF MEIRING: Could I please ask you to come a bit closer to the microphone so that we can hear you a bit better.  Can you hear me clearly?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, I can.

PROF MEIRING: I would like to hear about your family.  Was Vivian your only child or did you have other children as well?

MS CAROLLISEN: Vivian Matthee was my pre-marital child.

PROF MEIRING: Would you like to then tell us just in your own words exactly what happened in Lesotho, just so - that you can tell us about Vivian as well.  What kind of person he was and how he was involved in politics and what happened in Lesotho.

MS CAROLLISEN: Vivian Matthee was a boy who was a member of the ANC for years.  And he did that work because he saw so many things - he saw a lot of wrong and he was involved in the ANC and he was a boy who had always worked.  And in 1985 he was shot but in 1980 - since 1991 he had been gone and we had never seen him.  
And he always worked outside but in 1985 we received the tidings that he had been shot in Lesotho and that is when I went  there to go and identify his body in Lesotho.  He was a well educated boy, for years he had been at University and then he left for Lesotho and he did all the work that he did for the ANC.  
And I would just want to say that I would like to know what happened there - what happened to him.

PROF MEIRING: Ma'am very thank you for what you have told us and just to get the - to get it into context you say that he was studying, he was an advocate and in 1981 he left home already.  Did he leave for Lesotho then?

MS CAROLLISEN: I cannot say where he went but he had been there for a very short while because he had always been involved in the struggle.  He couldn't stay at home because he was concerned about our safety and also my granny because he did not want to create any problems for us and because of that he was always away from home.

PROF MEIRING: Were you ever in contact with him?

MS CAROLLISEN: No never.

PROF MEIRING: And then you received the heartbreaking news that he had been shot?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, that he had been shot.

PROF MEIRING: Who brought you the news?

MS CAROLLISEN: It was - we got the news from people in Mbekweni.

PROF MEIRING: And then you went to Lesotho by car?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, we went by car.

PROF MEIRING: And then did you go to Masero?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, we went to Masero.

PROF MEIRING: And did you go to the Police Mortuary there and saw the different bodies of people who had been shot?

MS CAROLLISEN: There were 9 all together that had been shot and I had to go and identify him.