Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: We expect people to conduct themselves in a proper decorum here.  We don't take kindly to people who don't show us respect.  We'll adjourn for 10 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ... with Mr Sinangwenye's evidence-in-chief.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: (s.u.o.)

MR PANDAY: (cont)
	Mr Ntshetha, before we proceed any further as to what happened when you had stabbed the victim, you must please clarify for the Committee the following.  Do you recall your evidence when you mentioned that the people appointed you or co-opted you to be the owner, or leader of the community?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR PANDAY: Right.  Now at that point was there a leader in the community?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Not any other leader.

MR PANDAY: There was no leader?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We already have that kind of evidence, the only clarity we seek from you, is to find out what his position really was and what happened to Basil Ngwenye's position?  He was a leader and being assisted, according to Mr Sinangwenye by Mr Dlamini, who was his vice, what happened to their position once he became co-opted, or appointed, whatever word you want to use?

MR PANDAY: Right.  Mr Ntshetha, when you were appointed leader, what happened to Basil and Moses in the structure?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Basil used binoculars to monitor the area so that he could identify things or people that were coming to the grounds.  He used these binoculars.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, the only issue that would like to be clarified on is whether he took over from Basil and became the sole Commander, or leader of that small group.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, when you became leader of this group of people, did you take over Basil's position?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And how long did you remain as leader for this group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Right up to my arrest in 1993 in November.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you took over his position, but not his binoculars, is that right?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, I did not.

ADV DE JAGER: When was Mr Mdo killed?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was on a Sunday.

ADV DE JAGER: Which year?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I'm forgetting a little bit.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you agree with Moses that he was killed early in 1992, the same year as this incident, but early in the year?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So the previous attacks in the valley, the first attack in 1991, was Mdo still the leader?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Mdo he was never a leader.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh was Mtu the leeder, Moses Mtu?  Who was the leader?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Basil and Moses were working together.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, thank you.

MR MALAN: So Mdo that was killed, was he a trained soldier of the ANC?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was he a member of MK?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was he living with the group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, I did not find him there, instead ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: How do you know that he was an MK?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I find him in my group.

MR MALAN: I thought you just said that you did not find him there?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am saying I did not find him ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: May we just have interpretation on this?

INTERPRETER: I'm trying to get a clarification on this Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Okay.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I did not find him there.

MR MALAN: Now how did you know that he was an MK soldier?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He explained the activities in which they were involved, training, he also referred to the border where they were trained.  He failed and quit.

MR MALAN: Now where did you find Mdo, where did you meet with him?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I found him with Moses.

MR MALAN: Where?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: In Virginia.

MR MALAN: Was that just a meeting, an incidental meeting?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: We had arranged that we were going to meet on a particular day when everybody was present, so that I could be accepted accordingly.  I went to them.

MR MALAN: Did you have any contact with other structures of the ANC?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: At that time, yes.

MR MALAN: Now who did you meet with in the ANC?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I would communicate with Sithole from Osindisweni.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Interpreter, from where?

INTERPRETER: Osindisweni.

MR MALAN: Where's this Osindisweni?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It's before Verulam.

MR MALAN: Now if you say you communicated with Sithole, what was Sithole's position?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He was in a position at Osindisweni.

MR MALAN: Mr Sinangwenye, what position?  I asked you what was his position, not whether he was in a position, what was his position?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He was head of the comrades, because when there was a shortage of firearms, he had a way of distributing these as well as ammunition.  We were in the position to gather funds and I would take the money to Osindisweni to go and fetch these.  I would go and fetch these firearms, using the funds as indicated on the books
for funds that we had.  We collected ammunition for a variety of firearms including 38's etc.

MR MALAN: Now what did you do with the firearms?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: These are firearms that we used in fighting and in guarding our area.

MR MALAN: Where did you keep these firearms?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Each one of us kept these firearms for themselves and in my case, I too kept my own firearm, I never parted with it.

MR MALAN: Did you not tell us that you were using traditional spears, the assegai, that you'd never used a firearm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, indeed so.

MR MALAN: Now what did you do with your firearm?  You never used it?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, I don't use a firearm.

MR MALAN: Where did you keep it?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I would take the firearms and give them to those who knew how to use them, so that they could be armed.

MR MALAN: And what firearm did you keep?  What was your firearm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Mine was an assegai, a traditional weapon.

MR MALAN: I'm referring - you said you kept your own.  I thought you were talking about a firearm.  Is an assegai a firearm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am saying it is a traditional weapon.

MR MALAN: That's right and I asked you about your firearm and you said you kept it, your own, you kept your own firearm, or did you not keep a firearm for yourself?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, not a firearm, I never kept a firearm.

MR MALAN: Alright.  Now on the day in question, you said the only person who had a firearm was Moses.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, he was not the only one, the others had firearms as well, in fact there were three firearms among us on that day.

MR MALAN: Who had the other firearms?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Basil had a firearm.  Gita had a firearm as well.

MR MALAN: Sorry who was the second person?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Gita.

MR MALAN: Who's Gita?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Michael Khumalo.

MR MALAN: Now why did they not shoot the victim?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: They were watching the coast as I was dealing with the deceased.  They had to look for anybody, the people, anybody who could have witnessed this  whilst they were watching, ought not to have been spared.  I would have indicated to them that they should fired.

MR MALAN: You never attended meetings of the ANC, branch meetings, you weren't a member of a branch or anything, just your own group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please answer yes or no?  We are running out of time.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I attended such meetings.

MR MALAN: Where?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I attended such meetings at Mawuti and Osindisweni.

MR MALAN: Wasn't there a branch in Virginia?