Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

CHAIRPERSON: So assume you want to get to the border using this road that you observed, you would have to travel for a distance, then you've got to stop there where the road ends, you've got to get out, you've got to actually walk the rest of the way up to the border.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any idea, what is the distance of that road?

UNKNOWN: The distance from which place to which?

CHAIRPERSON: From the main road to where it stops.

UNKNOWN: To where it stops.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

UNKNOWN: It's about two kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this road that we're talking about that you observed, that you reconnoitred, is it sign-posted or is it just a turn-off from the main road?

UNKNOWN: It's a turn-off with no signs.  Also in the cul-de-sac, to the cul-de-sac, there's no sign also that here is a cul-de-sac, you will see now that you are in a vale, then you can't go forward, you must turn back.

CHAIRPERSON: So if somebody who doesn't know the area were to turn into that road, that person would just travel for a distance and then would have to come to an end and turn back.  There's no indication that this is where the road goes to, or that it stops somewhere, nothing like that?

UNKNOWN: Nothing like that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say it's a bushy area?

UNKNOWN: Ja it's a bushy and mountainous area.

CHAIRPERSON: And there's no activity along that area in terms of farming or anything like that?

UNKNOWN: Nothing, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in the time that you observed that particular road, which vehicles did you see, if any, using that road?

UNKNOWN: Okay, Mr Chairman, I've seen only military vehicles using that road.  Then there was a helicopter in the mountain, then they go and collect area logistic from the helicopter, back down to that road, in those three days I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would observe the military vehicles travelling in the main road and then turning into that ...?

UNKNOWN: Then turning in that road.

CHAIRPERSON: And this one ...?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what would they do?  Would they travel up to the end of that road and then wait for their colleagues to come there?

UNKNOWN: They would wait for their colleagues to come there.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would turn back.

UNKNOWN: They would talk with them with the radio then they come from the border to that area.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would turn back and go to the main road again?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they would turn back and go.

CHAIRPERSON: And what does that road look like, that we're talking about?  Is it a big open area or is it just two paths, or what does it look like?

UNKNOWN: They've just opened it, I think about 300 from the main road, then I think from there it gets two parts to make the two kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: So there's been a bit of - they've done a bit of work for about 300 metres.

UNKNOWN: Yes, then they leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: From there onwards it was just two parts.  Those vehicles actually made the path.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the path yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that you planted a mine about a kilometre, was it a kilometre from the main road?

UNKNOWN: A kilometre from the main road, a kilometre to the cul-de-sac, in the ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: That is where it's already this pathway that the military vehicles made there?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not part of the constructed road?

UNKNOWN: It's not part of the constructed road.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it appears as if that mine was detonated by a vehicle, I'm not quite sure, it looks like civilian people on it.  Have you got any idea what could have happened there?

UNKNOWN: I get it from the media, I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Assume it was civilians on a civilian vehicle, can you think of any explanation for what could have happened, is it people that lost their way, or is it people that could have been on their way somewhere, or what, or can't you assist us?

UNKNOWN: I'm not sure that I can assist because I don't know, maybe they have hired the vehicle to go somewhere or to ferry people to the border so that they can jump the fence, I can't be sure.

CHAIRPERSON: But you certainly didn't expect any civilians to go on there?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I didn't expect any civilians.

CHAIRPERSON: Assume in those three days that you reconnoitred that particular road, assume you've seen a lot of civilian vehicles going up and down there, what would you have done?

UNKNOWN: I would never lay a landmine if it was like that, I will go and check other - and reconnoitre other places.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you under any pressure to actually plant a landmine in that particular road, or was it up to you to decide?

UNKNOWN: It was up to me to decide, no pressure.

CHAIRPERSON: No order to go and plant a mine in that particular roadway, on those particular what-you-call, then I get my order since I say I was working under the Chief of Operations, it is his ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but there was no specific order for you to go to that specific place and go plant that mine there where you planted it eventually, you could decide on that, would that be correct?

UNKNOWN: Okay, the first operation has gone correctly, I think the difference is about five kilometres because we have reconnoitred and checked that place before the ...(indistinct) of that corporal.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the Josefsdal one?

UNKNOWN: ;   The difference is not far from each other.  This one was to make that place because we have seen that it's militarised, that we must plant more mines in those areas, because it's a military area.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - was the Jacobsdal Mine, was it detonated before this one that we're talking about now?

UNKNOWN: This one is after that one of Josefsdal.  This one is after that one.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you planted this one here, you were already aware that the Josefsdal one has been detonated?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that it was an army person that detonated that one?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I've known, because we were fighting only the Security Forces, can be police or the army personnel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Sergeant-Major.  Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: I have no re-examination, thank you Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just one question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes,

ADV SANDI: After the Josefsdal landmine detonated, you managed to remain in the area and proceeded to plant the one at Diepgesit.

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't manage to stay in the area.  I have gone back to Swaziland and come back again to reconnoitre for the next incident.

ADV SANDI: After how long, approximately?

UNKNOWN: I'm not sure now because they are differentiating, they have got their own specific dates in the what-you-call.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant-Major, can I just ask you, were there any houses near-by that road that we're talking about that you planted the mine on?  Were there any houses nearby there?

UNKNOWN: There were no inhabitants.

CHAIRPERSON: There were no houses.

UNKNOWN: Flying the deep mountain down, there was a family living down in the mountain, next to about four kilometres, there were no houses, the only house was that one, the Motsa, about five kilos to four kilos, but you can see a person on top of the mountain.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's the only house that's in that immediate vicinity there?

UNKNOWN: Ja, immediate facilities.

CHAIRPERSON: And there's about four kilometres, you say, from that road?

UNKNOWN: Five kilometres, then you can see the Motsa family.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Has Ephraim Msivi, has he given a statement?  Is it part of the papers before us?