Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

AGNES NHLAPHO: Maria saw what happened.  No one missed this incident because this took place at 10:30 in the morning.
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MS SEROKE: You've given us the names of the police that you saw shooting.

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes it's true.

MS SEROKE: Are you certain about those police?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes I am certain, I am not lying.

MS SEROKE: This four year old that was shot, the parents were they satisfied when you told them that it wasn't Mzwaki who shot him but it was the police?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes they were satisfied because they saw themselves, they witnessed this because also they got hold of the bullets inside their house.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

MR MANTATA: When people were faced with this kind of a problem did the people themselves group themselves to fight against this danger that you are referring to?

AGNES NHLAPHO: People of Zone 7 from different places also felt bad and were so much in pain but there was nothing, absolutely nothing that they could do.

MR MANTATA: You say Mzwaki belongs to ANC.

AGNES NHLAPHO: That's true.

MR MANTATA: Were the ANC members in the area not around Mzwaki in this ...(intervention)

AGNES NHLAPHO: After they took Mzwaki they were using the police car that they used to use for taking the corpse.  People did come from the community to my place after they had taken Mzwaki.  The boers came in at that very time. I was in the bedroom when all this was happening.  When those boers came there were four of them, they got inside and they told everyone to go out and leave the house. When they were still busy telling them to go away one man said, according to our culture when this happened people are allowed to
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come and mourn so why are you telling the mourners to leave the place?  Then they left them alone.

MR MANTATA: I know it may be impossible to, but would you know of other people like Mzwaki who were killed by these Ketisi's gang?

AGNES NHLAPHO: There are many of them were killed by Ketisi's gang, because just before Mzwaki got killed they took the child of Mtinkulu and they also took Mayika's child, taking them because they thought they belonged to Mzwaki's gang because they kept saying Mzwaki is Mandela's lamb.

MR MANTATA: And these families who have lost sons like yours were they at any stage brought together by any ANC leader in Sebokeng?

AGNES NHLAPHO: I don't recall, not that I know, because at the time also I was so confused.  I could not think properly and do things properly as a result of what happened to my son. And the police used to attack me and just search in the house.  And dig holes even outside saying to me they were looking for grenades.  They used to ask me where was Zwakala's room, where did he used to sleep?  The way the police attacked me and they way they bothered me I am not well as a result of that.

MR MANTATA: You seem to know the police so well, would you say that these police were residents of Sebokeng too?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Dicky Chaka was living at Zone 6.  Pinky Cherry was living in Zone 7.  Peter Makubela was also a resident of Zone 7.  After that they took them using Caspirs to town.  Paul Shabangu was also resident of Zone 6, but I don't know right now where he's living.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Nhlapho two questions.  You told us that
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your neighbour's four year old child was killed, can we have the name of the child, the surname of the child please?

AGNES NHLAPHO: I did not know the child's name but I know the mother's name and her name was Tshupedo Lesatsi.

PROF MEIRING: And do you know whether she also is going to testify before the Truth Commission?

AGNES NHLAPHO: They did call Tshupedo at that time when they insisted to her to say it was Zwakale who killed her child.  She refused, she said I cannot lie, I am going to tell the truth and especially that I have witnesses, other people did see what happened and the police threatened her.  They said they were going to kill her if she does not say it was Zwakale who killed her child.  It was not too long and Tshupedo was shot.  We did not even know who shot Tshupedo.

PROF MEIRING: But you will be able to direct us to her or to encourage her to come to the Truth Commission in order to give her own testimony, will you do that?

AGNES NHLAPHO: You mean Tshupedo?  Tshupedo has died.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you, thank you for that.  And then a last question, there are many mothers who have lost their children in the past years, what is your advice to the Truth Commission, what should we do?  Some people say there should be a monument to the community, remembering the names, do you have any ideas on what the Truth Commission can do?

AGNES NHLAPHO: I cannot be conclusive in as far as this is concerned, but my husband, the father of the child will go on and say something.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Nhlapho is it possible for you to answer that question of Professor Meiring.  We don't have a statement from your husband so we are staying with you for
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the moment, if you can please - if you can just tell us what you think should be done?

AGNES NHLAPHO: I would kindly request that the Truth Commission should help me where it thinks it can help me because Mzwaki left his child and his child is now six years old.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Nhlapho I can see you are still very angry and it must be very upsetting to you to talk about this again, but I just want to get some clarification about that day.  You say that Mzwaki went to the tavern first and that's where a fight started with ...(intervention)

AGNES NHLAPHO: No he was not at the tavern, he had gone to visit Boysi his friend, and when he was coming back from Boysi that Ketisi's car was parked at the tavern.

DR RANDERA: Okay sorry, my apologies.  But that's where the fight started and then ...(intervention)

AGNES NHLAPHO: It started there, the fight started right there.

DR RANDERA: And Mzwaki managed to free himself from there and went home and then somebody called Senatla had helped him, is that right?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes he did help him, as they were fighting Ketisi using stones, he did help him.

DR RANDERA: So Ketisi and them had guns and your son and Senatla were fighting with stones?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Ketisi and friends were shooting but Mzwaki was using stones on that day fighting back using stones.

DR RANDERA: And then Ketisi and them ran away and then they came back in six cars you said?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes they came back on the 26th of April in the morning at 10:30.  When they got back already the police HRV/826 cars/...
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cars were parked at the stadium and they started attacking and then they said you get out Mandela's lamb, we are here now for you.

DR RANDERA: Sorry Ma'am, what happened to Senatla then, did he go away or was he still fighting with your son as well?

AGNES NHLAPHO: On the 26th Senatla was not present.

DR RANDERA: You see in your statement you are saying that these things happened on the same day, are you telling me now that these were different days?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes, these things took place on different days, it was not one day.

DR RANDERA: Okay, that helps me because it's not clear from the statement.  On the statement it appears as if it all happened on the same day.  I then want to go back when Ketisi's gang came back in six cars and then the riot police arrived as well, was there any warning from the riot police that things should stop, that people must lay down their guns?

AGNES NHLAPHO: No.  The police never took any initiative of calming the situation.  They just got there and started Ketisi and the gangsters.  All sorts of police cars were there, Combi's, Hippo's, airplanes were there.