Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

S F MANQELE: The estimation will be from where I am and my legal rep is, but one thing I won't be able to explain is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Less than half a metre? Did we agree?

MR CLAASSEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And to which part of her body was your firearm directed when you shot her?

S F MANQELE: Because as I was pointing the firearm at her - this was not planned you know as such, that where shall I point the firearm exactly where, so that I am not able to tell exactly as to which part of her body my firearm was pointing at, but what I will try to explain is that it would be on the upper part of her body like from the head right towards the chest, the upper part of her body.

CHAIRPERSON: Look Mr Manqele, you were less than a half a metre away from her, pulling her and pointing your firearm at her, do you really want us to believe that you are unable to say at which portion of her body this firearm was being pointed?

S F MANQELE: What I would like you to believe is that you should have an idea as to where my firearm was pointing.  I think it was from the head, face, right up to the chest because my firearm was not pointing down, but it was pointing to the upper part of her body, as I indicated.

CHAIRPERSON: The back or the front, on the side, or where?

S F MANQELE: The front side.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Manqele, this attempted robbery went terribly wrong.  Did you know Wiseman Kanyele before this incident?

S F MANQELE: Yes, I knew him.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you know him in a political capacity and what specific capacity?

S F MANQELE: I knew him as a member of the IFP, so was I.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Manqele, did you in your personal capacity stand to gain anything from what occurred that particular day?

S F MANQELE: The one thing that I wanted to gain personally was that if it meant that I too should die under the circumstances that we lived in, should die, because some of our members had already died during the conflict.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Manqele, how do you feel today about what had happened on that particular day?

S F MANQELE: I can say it is very, very hurtful.  I am full of remorse because ultimately when I landed in jail I concluded and understood that I violated the policies of the IFP, and that is why I took it upon myself to make an application for amnesty and direct my apologies to the families of the deceased.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Manqele, maybe just in conclusion, were there any prior specific political incidents which led to the decision that such an act should be committed, anything specifically that happened with you, with any of the people involved, that made you decide that you should take this drastic action?

S F MANQELE: Yes, there were certain things that occurred, like the dying of many IFP members, something which necessitated us to gather some money so that we could transport them back home where they could be buried.  When Wiseman Kanyele came up with this suggestion, I associated with it because I too show myself waiting for my death, possibly the same way as my fellow IFP colleagues.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Manqele, was there nothing else to be done about the situation?

S F MANQELE: I would say that I did not know exactly what to do to satisfy the needs to which I have already referred, so that when Wiseman came up with this plan I felt it within myself, I saw this as an opportunity to face the challenge that we were faced with.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, that would be all from us.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chair, but may I please have a two minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

S F MANQELE: (s.u.o.)

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.   Mr Manqele, would you agree with the other applicants, that there was a plan, specifically to rob Miss Govender?

S F MANQELE: Yes.

MS THABETE: Would you also agree that you were chosen to go with Mr Wiseman so that he could show you who this specific woman was that you had to rob?

S F MANQELE: Yes.

MS THABETE: What did he show you, what did Mr Wiseman Kanyele show you?

S F MANQELE: He showed me the vehicle that they were using.

MS THABETE: When you say ...(Zulu), who are you referring to?  Who is "they"?

S F MANQELE: I am referring to the one person who died at my hands and this other white male who was in her company.

MS THABETE: So who was your target, was it the lady or was it both of them, according to your plan?

S F MANQELE: Both of them.

MS THABETE: What were you supposed to do to them, according to your plan?

S F MANQELE: We were supposed to point our firearms at them on arrival.

MS THABETE: Is that all?

S F MANQELE: And then rob them of the money that they had in their possession.

MS THABETE: How did you know they carried money with them?

S F MANQELE: Wiseman Kanyele gave us that information.

MS THABETE: Did he tell you how he knew these people?

S F MANQELE: Yes, I still remember.

MS THABETE: Can you tell us?

S F MANQELE: Yes.

MS THABETE: Please tell us.

S F MANQELE: Wiseman indicated that he was employed at the place of employment of these two people, but then he did not indicate.  What he told me is that he was employed there but then he did not indicate to me as to whether he was employed with the two targets or not.

MS THABETE: So would it be correct for me to say Mr Wiseman identified these two people because they worked in the same area and he used to see them carrying bags of money to the bank?

S F MANQELE: Will you please repeat the question.

MS THABETE: Would it be correct for me to say Mr Wiseman Kanyele identified these two people, that is the white man and the woman, because he worked in the same area with them and as a result he used to see them with bags of money, going to the bank?  Would it be correct for me to say so?

S F MANQELE: The information to my knowledge is that he was working there, whether he was working in the same area as these people or the same firm is not quite clear, but then the one information that I had was that he was working there.  Whether he was working with these people or he was working in the same area as the people was not quite clear.

MS THABETE: When you say ...(Zulu) who are you referring to, what does ...(Zulu) refer to, is it the same company, does it refer to the same area, what does it refer to?

S F MANQELE: He showed me a building in the shopping centre, but then I don't know how or what was happening inside in terms of the different companies, who was working where or where these other people were working, etc.  I did not have quite the same, or should I say, knowledge, as to whether they were working for the same employer or whether they were just working in the same shopping complex.

MS THABETE: So, in your indemnity statement, when you said Mr Wiseman Kanyele told you that he was working with this lady, were you lying, or did you mean what you just explained?

S F MANQELE: Yes, he told me that he was working at the place where these people were to be robbed were working, but then I don't know as to whether they were working at the same company or department or different companies or what.

MS THABETE: Was Mr Kanyele employed when he went to show you these people?

S F MANQELE: Would you please repeat the question.

MS THABETE: Was Mr Kanyele still working at this building when he went to show you these people?

S F MANQELE: He was not working at the time.

MS THABETE: Did he tell you why he was not working there anymore?

S F MANQELE: No.

MS THABETE: Were you employed at this time?  Were you working anywhere at this time?

INTERPRETER: It looks like we have a technical problem, Chairperson.

MS THABETE: Can you answer the question then, were you employed during this time?

S F MANQELE: No.

MS THABETE: Was Mr Mvelase employed?

S F MANQELE: I would not know because we did not live under one roof.

MS THABETE: Was Mr Sigudu employed?