Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR VISSER: Chairperson, if you will bear me an indulgence, there are a few matters that arise which have not been covered.  The one thing Chairperson, that I thought my learned friend Mr Samuel would take up, was the issue of the AK47s which you've now done, but there's another issue that remains.  If I may just put that to Mr Radebe.
	It was put on behalf of Mr Mbane, and I think I read it somewhere, that Mr Mbane says that at the house of Ms Kubheka, she showed him weapons, and as I understand your statement, and please stop me if I'm wrong, you seem to suggest that that didn't happen.  Do you know what I'm talking about Mr Radebe?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If Mr Mbane says that Ms Kubheka showed him weapons at her house, would that be right or would that be wrong, as far as you're concerned?

MR SAMUEL: ...(indistinct) where are we looking at, that Ms Kubheka showed Mr Mbane weapons?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to find it myself.  Is this in the ...(intervention)

MR SAMUEL: Isn't it the other way around?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I may have phrased it incorrectly.  It's at page 130 of volume 2, paragraph 42 - there's another passage Chairperson, let me just find it.

MR HUGO: Could I try and be of assistance, Mr Chairman, I think Mr Visser refers to the paragraphs, page 128, it's Mr Mbane's statement where he says
"I gave Ntombi a bag of AK47s to keep for me."

MR VISSER: No, no, it's not that one, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: It's not that.  Sorry, I was trying.

MR VISSER: But thank you for the assistance.
	No Mr Chairman, I may be reminded of Botha's evidence to say that Mbane related to him that she showed them weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Just put the question now and it can be verified later from the evidence.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm sorry that I haven't got my finger on the pulse right at the moment.
	If Mr Mbane says that Ms Kubheka showed him weapons which she had in her house, would you know anything about that?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, if I may come in.  Wouldn't that question be misleading, because that's not the evidence we are going to tender.  How can you make a suggestion that has no basis.

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, it's ten to one, I'll get the evidence and I will read it to you after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, alright.

MR VISSER: May I go on with something else, Mr Chairman?
	Did I hear you say that it was the intention for Ms Kubheka to be killed, to be eliminated?  Is that what you're saying now?  That was the intention of the operation.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not say that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I thought I heard you say that.  Now you say you also handed over one other person to Mr Botha, I take it you're referring to an MK person, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: In your statement - sorry, in your amnesty application I seem to recall that you said one or two other people.  Let me just see whether I'm right this time for a change.

MR LAX: Page  118, 49.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you, paragraph 49.

MR VISSER: I'm just reading to you what you seem to have stated in your statement at page 118 of volume 1, and it says there
"Afterwards we returned to the house upon an occasion and one or two so-called comrades who arrived there were also taken away from there on the same basis and delivered to Hentie Botha."
Now first of all let me just explain to you that in paragraph 48 you talk about a person that was handed over at the highway and it, my first question I want to ask you, you did give evidence to say that that was a man, but I want to put to you that paragraph 48 doesn't make that clear.  It says:
"Ons het reeds voordat ons by die vrou se huis aangekom het, geskakel met Botha", we said that we were going to pick up a person and that we would then bring the person to them."
I want to make absolutely certain from you Mr Radebe, are you referring her to Ms Kubheka, or are you referring to some other person?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I speak of another person.

MR VISSER: Another person, not Ms Kubheka?

MR LAX: Sorry, if you read the other paragraph before that, you'll see they're talking about a person coming from Zambia and that they knew about that person and he testified about that.

CHAIRPERSON: And then if you read paragraph 50, the reading of that is that subsequent to that the lady became suspicious, etcetera.

MR VISSER: Just from the interest of making absolutely certain what the evidence is, I thought I must just clarify this, Chairperson.
	And then you go on to say that "one or two other people."  So it's that person that you handed over at the highway and one or two other comrades were also handed over, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it's quite clear from what it says here.  Do you just want to confirm it?

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see what it says here is, in paragraph 48, "We got this person at the highway and indeed handed him over to Hentie Botha."  Then it says "Ons het daarna", thereafter, one or two other people were handed over to Botha.

MR VISSER: But Chairperson, you see what the point of the question is, Mr Lax asked this witness exactly "How many people did you hand over?"  And he said "One."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I'm not stopping you but I'm just saying it's clear from what is written here that there's more than one.

MR VISSER: That's what I'm putting to him.

CHAIRPERSON: But ask him whether this is correct or what it means.

MR LAX: That was precisely why I asked those questions in the light of this statement.

MR VISSER: Yes.
	I just want to ask you now, Mr Radebe, you've heard what I've said.  In paragraph 48 you say after the one that was handed over a the freeway, or at the highway, you handed over one or two others, other comrades to Mr Hentie Botha, is that correct or is that wrong?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was speaking about two comrades including Ms Makhubela.

MR VISSER: Miss?

INTERPRETER: Ms Kubheka, sorry.

MR VISSER: So Ms Kubheka and one other comrade, is that all that you have knowledge of that were handed to Mr Botha, is that what you're saying?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you remember the name of the comrade?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Please do.

MR LAX: Why does that then appear in your affidavit here, because these are two others in addition to Kubheka and in addition to the man at the highway at KwaMashu?  On this affidavit it would be three or four people, not two people.  These are two entirely different people.  Maybe you haven't understood the question.  Perhaps you should read your affidavit at page 118.
	Let me explain it to you, it's easier than reading it to you, because it's already been read to you.  The portion that Mr Visser read to you is taken from your affidavit, which is in the papers at page 118 and others.  What it says is that after you handed the man to Botha at the KwaMashu highway bridge, in addition to that, in addition to Kubheka who you deal with later in your affidavit, you understand, there are one or two other people who you also handed over to Botha, in a similar manner to the man at the bridge at KwaMashu.  That's what your affidavit says.  Now what I want to know from you is, why do you refer to one or two other people in addition to the two we've already spoken about?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, I wanted to mention about the first comrade whom we took to Mr Botha at the highway, then the other one, therefore I was speaking about three people.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) one or other so-called comrades.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether I was speaking about Gipsman and the other one and Ms Kubheka and the one at the highway, so those are three people.