Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The truth is I didn't like that, but I knew that if Bonny wasn't there at Mr Amos' house, there were not going to be people who will come and attack us, because Amos was an old man, but the reason they were there, it was because of Bonny.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  How do you explain then the anger of the other people who were with you, who then decided to burn not Bonny's house but Amos Cele's house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That wasn't the correct thing to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, you may proceed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So my last question was, do you still hold the statement Mr Cele, the last one in paragraph 15?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I do.

MR MOLOHLANYE: If so, thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molohlanye.  Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions to put to Mr Cele?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I do but before I pose any questions, I would like to ask for a ten minute adjournment, there are a few issues I need to clarify before I proceed with my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You have in chambers indicated to the Committee that the relatives of the deceased and the victims, were present and that it was their intention to oppose this application?

MS THABETHE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And you now seek an opportunity to consult with them with regard to the evidence tendered by Mr Cele before you can proceed to put questions to Mr Cele?

MS THABETHE: That is correct Madam Chair, I have consulted with them, but there are a few issues I need to clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will take a lunch adjournment, and we will reconvene at half past one.  Will that be sufficient for you to consult and still have something to eat as well as the relatives and the objectors?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will convene and start at half past one.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: I know that the applicant is five minutes late.  Next time, please ensure that before the Committee moves in, the applicant is already seated.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We must try to keep to time.  If we are not going to do that, then we will not finish.

MR MOLOHLANYE: I apologise Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to simply note that we take a robust view to not commencing timeously, because of such unnecessary delays.  Let them not re-occur.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, we adjourned when you were to commence with your cross-examination of Mr Cele.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, thank you Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Cele, with regard to the family of Amos Cele or let me be more precise, with regard to Amos Cele, are you related to him in any way?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Is it correct that he is your grandfather?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You have also stated in your evidence earlier on that at this area, in particular, at Manyaseni, there was no political fighting, is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Coming back to the incident firstly which happened on the 25th of December 1989,  you in your evidence, you indicated that you were informed that there were people in the area who had come to attack you, is that correct, would I be right in putting it this way?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Exactly who had told you that these people came to attack you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: A small boy from the area, his name is Beko.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you spell that for us?  The name of the person who told you?

MS THABETHE: Can you spell that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Beko.

MS THABETHE: Buko?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Beko.

CHAIRPERSON: Beko?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that his first name or his last name?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I only know him as Beko.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was this man?

MS THABETHE: There seems to be  a problem with the sound with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear me now?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just put down what you are holding on your hands, you will hear much better.   Now can you hear me?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was Beko?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I am not certain as to how old he was, but he was a small boy, young boy, but we were playing soccer with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say he was approximately 15 years or younger than 15?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, approximately 15 or younger.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Did you ask Beko where he got this from, this information from?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When I first heard about this, I didn't believe that that was the truth, I only believed that it was the truth when I saw the people.

MS THABETHE: I will leave that question for now, even though...

CHAIRPERSON: Don't leave it, won't you just for completeness sake round it up.  When were you told by Beko that certain people wanted to kill you, when was this?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: On the 24th.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was this, was this at your house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he indicate who wanted to kill you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, he only told me that there were people who arrived and he heard that they arrived here to kill me because they wanted to pay revenge on Martin's death.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was Beko staying at that time?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At Manyaseni.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he staying with the Cele's?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, he was staying at his home.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, maybe I should follow up my question.  My question was did he tell you how he got to know of the fact that these people were looking for you, that was my question?  Where did he hear this from?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, he didn't tell me and also I didn't ask him.

MS THABETHE: In your statement on paragraph 8, you say
"... the house belonged to Amos Cele who was an IFP member."
	How do you know this?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I knew that because sometimes IFP supporters would come to Amos' house.   Even IFP meetings will sometimes be held at his house.

MS THABETHE: My  instructions, Mr Cele, are that Amos Cele did not belong to any political organisation, what is your response to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I deny that because I have full information that he was a supporter of a member of the IFP, but there was no conflict between us.

MS THABETHE: Is it your evidence, am I understanding you correctly if you say the fact that he was an IFP member, was not a source of any dispute in your area, is that what you are saying?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The time I am referring at, at the time, in that area, there were no conflicts but there were conflicts in the neighbouring areas.

MS THABETHE: I will take that answer to be yes, there was no problem with the fact that you saw him as an IFP member, even though I have been instructed that he was not an IFP member.   Do you want to say anything on that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At the time, I have never experienced any or I have never seen any conflict between him and others.

MS THABETHE: You also state in your statement that you called on  Nococanya who was staying with the deceased, Martin Ngcobo and you asked them who the people who had visited Amos Cele's house were and their response was that they didn't know who these people were, do you remember saying that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I didn't call Nococanya, I personally.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that is what is being put to you, what is being put to you is that you had a discussion with Nococanya and her mother Diana, yes Diana?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I did speak with them.

MS THABETHE: And according to your evidence they responded that they didn't know what these people wanted.  Is that correct?