Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you have these military structures, chains of command, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now tell us a little about the chain of command in the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: The change of command, what do you mean?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chains of command.  If you want it to be interpreted we can make use of the apparatus that you used earlier.  Do you understand the words: "the chains of command" in your para-military organisation?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Explain them to us please.

MR LE ROUX: Is that now the whole set-up of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: We know at this stage that you have a leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche.  I want the chain of command from Mr Terreblanche down to you please Sir.

MR LE ROUX: That chain of command through the Ystergarde consists of the Brigadier that was there, after him it was a Colonel, after the Colonel ...[intervention]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr le Roux, I'm sorry to interrupt, would you just name the chain of command.  I don't want to know that he's a Brigadier, would you just say Brigadier so and so please?  The name of the person.

MR LE ROUX: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So the chain of command would be from the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche to the Brigadiers, their names are?

MR LE ROUX: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here.  I think that you and the witness may be at crossed purposes here.  He mentions the chain of command in the "Yestergarde".  Perhaps you should just make that clear or else you're at cross purposes here.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you.
	Let's go through the chain of command and then such ...[indistinct] would come direct from the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche.  How would you know, I think you mentioned you were a Lieutenant in the AWB ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We're speaking of the AWB now.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The AWB, who would that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Not the "Yestergarde".

MR LE ROUX: In the Ystergarde Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, in the AWB, how would the instructions come down to you?

CHAIRPERSON: The question refers to the chain of command list of the AWB.  I don't know if it exists, but that's the question.

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, can I just complete this please?  The chain of command in the AWB itself, is that what you want?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes.

MR LE ROUX: You're asking me something out of the blue now.  The General, I was under General Dagar Thompson of the East Rand then.  Is that how you want it Chairperson?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, if we can have it as it was just before these bomb attacks took place.

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think we will save a lot of time here, it is very clear that the evidence of this applicant was that there was a: "wen Kommando" and that there was an: "Yestergarde".  These are two sections within the AWB.  I think the person who puts the question must indicate because the applicant's evidence is that he was a member of the "Yestergarde".  Does this person want to know what the chain of command was within the Ystergarde as he knew it or does he want to know what the chain of command was within the whole AWB, that is now the: "wen Kommando", the complete wen Kommando and the "Yestergarde".  I think there was still the: "Rooi Valke" which were the women.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry Mrs van der Walt, if I understood Mr Kriel's question correctly then he wants to know: instructions that were given within the structure which concerned the applicant and reached the applicant, if he can explain how would he go about reaching the leader who is also the leader of the Ystergarde.  That is the question.  Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, ...[intervention]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, if I could reply to that.  I have never been a member, I do not know how the structures worked.  I'm trying to ascertain the structures so that we know what the chain of command is, because there are so many Generals and Brigadiers that are involved in these applications that I am lost and that is why I'm trying to get this from the witness so I can establish that, that I may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] make it simpler for him then.
	Mr le Roux, you gave evidence earlier today that you accept that the decision to use bombs came from the AWB Staff Generals.  That includes the leader of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that includes the leader of the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Those instructions that you followed according to your evidence, does that come from the top?  How would it reach you?

MR LE ROUX: I understand the basic principle, it will take me some time.  My first commander above me was basically Kommandant Abe Fourie, then it would be Brigadier Leon van der Merwe and then the AWB's or the leading figures within the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: The Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, the Staff Generals.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Mr Terreblanche?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	So the orders would come down from Mr Terreblanche right down to your particular level and I take it from your level up to Mr Terreblanche again, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: The instructions are given from the top, but you are correct yes, that is basically how it occurred.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And the feedback would return via this chain of command?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson, under normal circumstances.  These things that we went into before the April election, they were not normal circumstance, things changed.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now during the period January '94 to April '95 or let's say to the end of March '94, were things normal or abnormal in the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: We for example, when we reached Trim Park I was appointed to other people who I do not usually have in the order of command in my structure and who were in a different rank before the gathering.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But you were a member of 14 years standing and I take it a trusted and trustworthy member, so much so that you were specifically taken to assist with the making of bombs?

MR LE ROUX: I do not believe that that was the reason for that, no.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: In other words, are you trying to say that the leadership of the AWB did not have trust and faith in you?

MR LE ROUX: They did yes, but that was because of the fact that I was from the Ystergarde and that certain tasks were give to them, that is now the "Yestergarde".

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You said that at the time of bringing these applications there were broad discussions between yourself and the other applicants, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, we did talk about it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you drew in draft your applications for your counsel who would then type and prepare the final documents?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And I take it that under the circumstances you were in the same prison?

MR LE ROUX: Not with all of them.  Some of them were there and others not.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Well, let's deal with Mr Barnard, was he there?

MR LE ROUX: He was there Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Myburgh?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And did you discuss your application with these people and they in turn with you?

MR LE ROUX: I wrote this application form of mine, Cliffie wrote his and the other applicant wrote his one.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I know you wrote it yourself but the question is, did you discuss it with each other?

MR LE ROUX: Not word for word, no, nothing like that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now he's saying: "No" Mr Chairman.  May I ...[indistinct]
	Did you all discuss it with each other, yes or no?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, we did.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now the Trim Park meeting, were you present at that meeting?