Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

FUNDISILE GULENI: These people were alleged to be coming in Costello's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

FUNDISILE GULENI: In town and also it was alleged that even in Second Beach Cottages they used to gather there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why wasn't Costello's home or his property attacked?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Can you come again?

CHAIRPERSON: Why wasn't Costello's property or his person attacked if he was central to these right-wing problems?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Our fear was that the attack in town would alarm the local police as well the special force, that is T.T.F. camps that were there and that will give problems because we'll end up fighting with the forces, not fighting with the target.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR ZILWA: Now as you say, you proceeded to Mpandi.  Was there any connection to Mpandi and these destabilising elements?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes in the sense that we chose Mpandi on the basis that it was the area where it was alleged they used to gather there and we thought we would be able to find these targets at that area because they used - that was the area that they used to hold meetings as per allegation.

MR ZILWA: Okay, please carry on?

FUNDISILE GULENI: So we proceeded to Mpandi where, just before we reached Mpandi we had to find a place where we would finalise our planning of attack.  Then in that caucus of ours, it transpired that we need to have a clear picture of the place because at that time Pumelele was the only person who knew the area.  Then we agreed to first inspect the area before we carry on the operation.  Our purpose was to hit the people whom we find there, who will be whites.  At some time we wanted to avoid a situation where we will, I mean there will be people whom we were not targeting that will be affected.  So when we reached Mpandi we found a place where we got out from the bakkie and walk on foot to the area and one Lungile Mazwi drove the car using, I mean following the road to Mpandi and we walked through the foot path to Mpandi.  That's where I, Pumelele and Viani Nyologana were mandated to go and inspect the area.  Then when we arrived at the area, we spoke to a lady who was, I suspect was a servant there and we asked from her whether there are any whites around there.  She responded that others have gone to one of the coastal areas.  When we met also a young child, a white one, then we have conversation with her, asking where she's coming from, with whom is she staying, then we just have that kind of conversation.  Then we left there to join the other group who were waiting at the spot where the incident occurred.  We reported that the information we gathered there was that the other white men have gone to the coastal area for fishing.  So whilst something which I need, on the way to join the group, I together with Viani Nyologana had a small debate around the issue.  Viani was saying we couldn't choose when we come across these people as to who must we attack, we should attack everybody.  So I said to him it would serve no purpose if we hit everybody, let's rather hit against people whom we suspect that they could be associated with the plot that we suspected to be occurring in those areas.  So we ended up, when we reached the guys that were waiting at the parking, we informed them that it was alleged, the information we got was that some white men have gone to go fishing.  Then we decided that the other group will remain in the car and I together with Maxhayi and the one...[indistinct] would go to ambush.  So at that time I was carrying a pistol, a pistol borrowed from one of the two guys whom I don't know by their name, from Majola and Maxhayi was carrying the rifle, R4 rifle and the other two men was carrying a 9 mm also.
	Then at the spot we waited as we agreed that the guy will give a signal when these targets are coming.  Then indeed they do that.  Then when it approaches, we attacked it.

MR ZILWA: Yes, could you give more detail about the attack itself?  You had arranged that a signal would be given by the people who were waiting next to the car and you took ambush positions.  Now when it appeared, you say you attacked it, exactly what happened?

FUNDISILE GULENI: When it appeared, the signal sounded and we were ordered to attack.  Then when it comes nearer, I was the first person to shoot but the problem with the pistol I was carrying was that the magazine was loose and I couldn't shoot again because of that problem and the other guys followed the suit.

MR ZILWA: Do I understand correctly that because of the problem with the magazine of your pistol you only fired one shot?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR ZILWA: Okay, so after you had fired that shot the others fired until what happened?

FUNDISILE GULENI: They fired until the car lost control and well, it capsized.  Whilst it was still capsizing, we were already turning back to join the other group there and then immediately we reached the car we drove off.

MR ZILWA: I see and you've been listening to the evidence that has been given by Maxhayi and also by Pumelele Hermans relating to the incident?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR ZILWA: Do you agree with regard to the details, do you agree with them with the details given by them as to what occurred?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I agree.

MR ZILWA: Right, they told us that shortly after that you were delivered to your respective places of abode by this motor vehicle which belonged to Viani Nyologana and then you of Port St Johns were left there and they of Flagstaff proceeded to Flagstaff?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now what objective were you aiming to achieve by your action?

FUNDISILE GULENI: The objective we aimed to achieve was that among others the tendency of the plot by the South African regime then should come to a stop, that one of attacking people because it was not the first time that, I mean the death of Chris Hani was not the first attack by these people, so I wanted them to refrain from doing so and also we were afraid that now that these incidents occurs a number of times, now the people tend to lose confidence now to the ANC organisation that it's not protective at all, they are being killed, there's no response, all those things.  So that's one of the things that we felt it's wise to give a message to the whole South Africa that it is possible for us to retaliate if they attack against the ANC carries on or against blacks, if I can put it that way.

MR ZILWA: Did the fact that Chris Hani was assassinated by a white man, did that have anything to do with your decision?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes it had because we regarded that as something which tantamounts to a declaration of war against us as blacks as well.

MR ZILWA: Now by committing the act that you did, did you get the feeling that you had achieved the objective that you wanted to achieve by committing your deed?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja, we have achieved it in that what we expected because these we thought these people are having a hit list at their disposal therefore they will carry on killing but they could not because they could see that the people of South Africa are angry and they are retaliating for what has happened, so on the base, I regard it as we have achieved something.

MR ZILWA: Now it has been stated that the stated policy of the African National Congress at that time was that violence, political violence was not approved.  Now you were a unit or you were acting under the banner of the African National Congress and the others you've mentioned at the time.  Now if it is to be suggested that your action was in direct violation of this the stated stance of the African National Congress, what would be your response to that?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Can you come again with the question?