Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The address was known by Jantjie and I was just only a driver.

MR VISSER: Were you told where the address came from?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you then arrive at a certain place where you found Nomasonto?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you describe to us what this place looked like?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I remember that there was a high fence, a high security fence.

MR VISSER: With a gate?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, there was a gate.

MR VISSER: Were there guards at the gate or could you just drive in?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There was no guard, Chairperson, there was free access.  The gate was open.

MR VISSER: Very well.  What vehicle did you use?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It is the same kombi we used during the first incident.

MR VISSER: Who drove?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was the driver, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When you arrived at this place - maybe I should just ask this first, inside this fence, what kind of buildings did you find?  Was it houses, flats, what type of buildings?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Those were just like the huts you would find a rural area.

MR VISSER: Mr Interpreter, did you say "huts"?  I'm not sure.  "Hutte"?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.
	Were there a lot of people in the area?  Did you see people in the area?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't recall seeing people, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where did you find Nomasonto, what was she doing?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We found her outside busy putting her clothes on the line.

MR VISSER: Did somebody speak to her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, Mr Jantjie was having a discussion with her.

MR VISSER: Could you hear what he said to her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What did he say to her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: He said to her that we were sent by Betty to come and collect her.

MR VISSER: Did Jantjie tell her where you were going to take her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When Jantjie explained he stated that we were taking her to Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: Did she resist?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't recall her denying or not willing to go with us.

MR VISSER: Did she have any requests?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: She requested us to take the baby's clothes.

MR VISSER: Very well.  And what of the baby?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

MR VISSER: You say that you had to take the baby's clothes with, what about the baby?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: She explained that she was taking the baby with.

MR VISSER: Did you then leave?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: From there we returned to Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: To the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: ...(no interpretation)

MR VISSER: Did you go to the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, we went to Ladybrand in the farm.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with any interviews with Nomasonto?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did not take a role in any interview or I had nothing to do with those people in terms of the interviews, interrogations or any other thing.

MR VISSER: Did you make contact with Betty Boom on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When we arrived, Nomasonto was taken to a room where Betty was.

MR VISSER: Did you hear any discussions between Nomasonto and Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Were you informed by anyone about what happened afterwards concerning Nomasonto?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR VISSER: Did you hear from anyone what happened with Nomasonto, on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: In other words, Chairperson, when you say what happened to Nomasonto, do you mean in which way?

MR VISSER: Well I cannot lead you any further, let us leave it there.
	Did you hear anything with regards to the baby?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I learnt something about the baby.  Mr Jantjie explained only that Nomasonto has the baby, that that child should be taken to Vereeniging to her parents.

MR VISSER: Did they tell you who took the child?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The child was taken there but I was not party to that.

MR VISSER: Can you recall how long after you went to go and fetch Betty Boom, you went to go and fetch Nomasonto in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it may be a day or two days, but I cannot just say it with surety.

MR VISSER: And you also stated on page 29C, paragraph 12, that you were told to go with Robertshaw, Jantjie and Jagga, to accompany them to Lesotho - I'm sorry Chairperson, it's paragraph 15 at page 29D, I'm terribly sorry - that you were given an instruction to accompany Jantjie to Lesotho, to go and pick up Nomasonto.  Can you recall who gave that instruction to you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, my senior, that is Robertshaw, gave me that order.

INTERPRETER: Can I have a minute to drink some water please.  You may proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you.
	What happened afterwards, did you again go to Lesotho to go and fetch somebody else?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, we returned to go and fetch Tax Sejanamane.

MR VISSER: Who gave you this instruction?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Mr Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: And did you then accompany somebody to Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, we were four, that is myself, Jantjie, Tony Jagga and Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: What happened in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was given an instruction to go to a particular area where I would find the person whom we wanted.  We would cross the border and then we proceeded to a place where we found Tax there.

MR VISSER: Where was this place?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The place is Loatamani.

MR VISSER: Can you say how far that is from where you picked up Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I'm not an expert in calculations or estimations, Chairperson, but it is just above eighteen kilometres - eight kilometres, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When you saw Tax Sejanamane for the first time, what was your impression, what was his reaction when he saw you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I'm able to recall, Chairperson, when I stopped the car just in front of where Tax Sejanamane was, he wanted to run away, he was fearful, then Jantjie shouted at him and said: "We are sent by Betty".  Then Tax started to be relieved, then he entered the car and then we left with him.

MR VISSER: Very well.  So did he enter the car voluntarily?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What vehicle was it?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: In this incident it's a kombi but it's not a VW, it is a Toyota kombi.

MR VISSER: And did you go from that point onwards to the farm with Tax?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And was he permitted to speak to Nomasonto and Betty Boom once you arrived there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you ever also guard Nomasonto or Tax?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I did.

MR VISSER: Were they separate or were the two of them together with Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We started with Betty Boom, then Nomasonto followed.  At the time when Tax was taken, Nomasonto and Betty were in the same room and when I arrived with Tax Sejanamane he was taken to that room where the two were.

MR VISSER: So it is there where you guarded all three of them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not guarding them at the same time, all of them.  When we arrived with Tax, there was a period where I stayed with him, approximately for an hour, when they had a discussion, all of them and then Jantjie left, then requested that Tax should be taken to a particular room.

MR VISSER: So Tax was detained separately from Nomasonto and Betty?