Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it's true.  With regard to Mr Chikororo to be honest, well it would be very helpful for me, I severely beat Mr Chikororo.  With regard to Mr Chikororo, during the time of his arrest he was very young.  Although I can't possibly say whether he's of my age but when looking at him I could see that he was younger than I was.  With regard to this case I was very much participative.  I tortured him severely.  I did make him frog jump; he was made to stand on his head; I threatened him; I even told him I could end his life in this world.  I even went on to say, with regard to the electric shock, I made use of it personally.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who else was with you?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: If I remember the late John Managa was also with me.  If I am not mistaken also on the other section Mr Netshivale was also involved.  I can't tell you exactly whether - well I think he was around and so many other members who were involved because in the day you were not really respected, there were some young officials who just beat them there and there just to enjoy and leave.  Because with regard to interrogation in our Security section was done in a section which, well I can't tell exactly, how I can explain, the section would be regarded, based on whether one would be very confident enough, secretive, so that they would not really go out and tell exactly what happened in the days.  That is why we would like these people to be very secretive.  Although these people would be very involved, the elderly people or the senior people will be able to see that.

MR MEYER: You have already said now that you were involved in electric shock treatment and that you beat him severely, you threatened to kill him, is there anything else that you did with regard to Mr Chikororo?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it is true with regard to Mr Chikororo, although I won't be able to say in detail how I tortured him I am saying that I was using all available techniques to threaten him.  Let me say Mr Chikororo was very tough although he was very young he was not so easy to deal with especially to break his morale so as to extract the information that we wanted he was very tough.  However, it forced me to use any available method, electric shock, putting a bag with water, and would put this wire that will wind as if you are ringing the telephone, or we will just handcuff him there would be these wires so that the impact will shock the whole body.  There are so many methods that were used in torturing.  Some of them I won't even remember categorically.  However, I can't say - he may say more that he will explain.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You must remember something Sir, we don't want him to explain.  He is not applying for amnesty.  It is you who has to explain because you are applying for amnesty.  There is no onus on him to come here and explain.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it is true, I am quite aware, and I want this Committee to understand that my evidence and my truth as put evidently, that there were so many things that really happened a long time ago.  I remember even yesterday as I left home, I didn't sleep well because I was trying to think in terms of what I was going to say based on what my colleagues had said and as to what I was going to say.  Was I going to say exactly how it happened.  I even went to an extent of asking my wife to pray on my behalf so that I will be able to say exactly the truth.  Pardon me if I did not reach the stage I really admit that I tortured him although I cannot say exactly what else used in torturing him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I hope you are not suggesting that you have had to think of how to fashion your evidence to be in line with that that has previously been given by your co-applicants, I just hope you are not suggesting that to us.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Could you just repeat the question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am saying from the comment that you have just made, I hope you are not suggesting to this Committee that you are now fashioning your evidence, you are tailoring your evidence to be in line with the one already given by your co-applicants, because you must tell us your involvement as you, yourself understand it, as you yourself know to have been, irrespective of what has already been given before this Committee by your co-applicants.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Whilst it is true I am not trying to say that it should be in line with what has already taken place because if somebody teaches me on what to say it would be very misleading on my side.  I will be confused.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So don't make the comments that you have been making, just give us the evidence.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Thank you very much if I was not able to put it clearly.

MR MEYER: Captain, can you recall, can you remember how long the questioning on the interrogation of Mr Chikororo, how long it kept on?  Was it over more than one day or so on?  Can you give any indication to that effect?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: It took a long time.  I am quite sure that it might have been more than three days, because it was not so easy to extract the truth from Mr Chikororo.  And also the period during the day on a particular day we will ask him more than two or three hours.

MR MEYER: Alright.  Then with regard to Mr Mahumela you said in your statement you cannot remember if you assaulted him but it is possible.  Any comment on that?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it is true.  I think with regard to Mr Mahumela let me say initially that when he was arrested I didn't really get the exact information as to how he was involved in the bombing of the police station.  However, with the directives that we were given and also the information that was given to us in the offices it was said to us that he used to go to the police station just to check as a spy and that could link him to the bombing of the police station.  That is why I am saying I can't really tell exactly how I was involved.  However, I can admit and say that I beat Mr Mahumela, although I won't really say it in detail as to how he was interrogated and how long it took place.  However, I was involved, maybe in the interrogation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Let me try and comprehend this aspect of your evidence.  You can't tell your particular involvement but you admit that you actually beat Mr Mahumela?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How do you know that you did anything to him if you can't recall what you did?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I just don't want to confuse myself.  You know just as to how I beat him I cannot say I took part but I agree that I did.  I don't want to lie, because I have to explain to this Committee as to how I beat him, how long it took, I just don't want to lie.  However, I did beat him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But how do you know that you beat him if you can't say what you did to him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I agree that I beat Mr Mahumela.  However what I am not able to put across to the Committee is how long it took for over how many hours and what I used as a method I cannot explain because you know according to my knowledge I wasn't really seriously involved.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are thinking of something, if you are remembering something you're surely formulating a picture of it in your mind otherwise you won't remember it.  You are casting back and in your mind you are seeing a replay of what happened.  Sometimes it's very distinct because you can't remember it well but you always get a picture in your mind.  Now what picture do you get of this beating of Mr Mahumela, if any?  And if you don't get any picture, if it's just blank then we go back to Judge Khampepe's question, how do you know you beat him if you can't recall anything?