Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

ADV BOSMAN: And how was your seniority established in the unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: A person's performance would be checked.  When a person was given instructions and performed them with immediate effect, such people were in a position to be put on top of others.

ADV BOSMAN: And who made him the commander that day, who appointed him as a commander that day?  Or was it a sort of - did it follow by itself that he was your senior and therefore in command?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, it not just happen, he was elected by our seniors so that he becomes a commander, a so-called 2IC.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he second in command in the unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ma'am.

MS MOLOISANE: I have nothing more to add, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhwanazi?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to do so.

MS THABETE: Thank you.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, when you called the victims, Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena outside the tavern, why were you calling them, or why did you call them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They were not called by me.

MS THABETE: But you were present when they were called, isn't it?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, I was.

MS THABETE: So according to your knowledge, why were they called outside?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They were called because they were disappearing in the township and we wanted to take them to Zone 12 to the offices of the ANC Youth League to be questioned, and the decision would be taken there as to what should happen to them.

MS THABETE: Is it correct that when you called them it was on a Sunday?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, it was on a Sunday.

MS THABETE: Were the offices open also on Sundays, the ANC offices?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They were open at all times.

MS THABETE: So would I be correct to say when you called them out of the tavern your intention was to go and question them at the ANC offices?  Would I be correct to say that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did you know Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena very well would you say?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Very well.

MS THABETE: Where did they live?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We lived in one area, that is Zone 12.

MS THABETE: Is it correct that in your evidence earlier on you implied or you stated that they lived in the Madala Hostel at some stage?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: When was this?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was in those years, during 1991, '92, '93.

MS THABETE: Mr Mkhwanazi, it's my instructions that Ms Hapile Ndumo and Ms Elsie Mokoena never lived at the Madala Hostel, they've always lived in the same area as you, what is your comment to that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They are just defending themselves.  Hapile Ndumo lived in the same street as myself, the 5th house from my home.  Each time I get out of my home I would be in a position to see her home and she was not present in the township, I'm sure of that.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Ms Thabete?
	What are you saying, are you saying that because there was a stage when she was not around the township you simply assumed that she stays at Kwamadala Hostel, or you know for a fact there was a time when she stayed at Kwamadala Hostel?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I know there was a time where she stayed at Kwamadala.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did that information get to be known by you?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: There were underground comrades, they were able to meet and go to town and seek information regarding these people.  When one member of the IFP was captured he would be asked as to who else is in their place of living.
	To add a little on that, these girls were once captured in the township and they were going to be assaulted, being warned that they should leave this.  They decided that they were not going to be dictated to by the people of the township and they went back.  That was after they were given a few lashes of warning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when were they captured?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: If I am not mistaken it could have been 1991 or 1992, I am not clear.

CHAIRPERSON: And by whom were they captured?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: There was a certain comrade called Skhosana in the township, he is the one who went with them to the ANC offices to be given lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: What role did comrade Skhosana have within the SDU structures?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He took part within the SDU but he had his own separate unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of the SDU?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete,  you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Thabete, may I just get some clarification here?
	You say that Mr Skhosana had his own separate unit, who was the commander of that unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I would not say who the commander was, I did not know who the commander was in their group.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there more than one unit in the same area?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Why I'm asking you this question, in your supplementary affidavit you say that
"By virtue of being comrades we became members of the SDU"
So did you regard yourselves as automatically part of an SDU?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, I was recruited to be a member of the SDU.

ADV BOSMAN: By whom were you recruited?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Godfrey Shia.

ADV BOSMAN: And then on page 179 of the papers in your application form, paragraph 3 there, your paragraph 3 numbered number 3, you say
"We were regarded as Self Defence Units."

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now did you fill this out yourself, in your own handwriting?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: You counsel says you're well-versed in English, why did you say you were regarded as Self Defence Units?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: The community regarded us as their Self Defence Unit.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't they know you as a Self Defence Unit because you were properly formed and established?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They knew us to be their Self Defence Units.  Maybe the use of words was improper here.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was Godfrey Shia's position, was he just a member?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He was a member of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minutes adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ... put questions to Mr Mkhwanazi.   Mr Mkhwanazi, you are reminded that you are still under your former oath.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Ms Thabete.

ADV BOSMAN: I have finished, thank you.

MS THABETE: (Continued)   Mr Mkhwanazi it's also my instructions that - maybe I should put it this way, what was your relations between you and Hapile Ndumo, Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, were you in good relations?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, we were in good relations.  That is during their stay in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you meant when you say during their stay in the township.  When she was killed, was she no longer staying in the township?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, she was not seen in the township, I did not see her in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: When last had you seen her in the township?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not remember, but it was in those weeks when they were given lashes of warning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you will recall that you said they were given such lashes between 1991 and 1992, that was your earlier evidence, are you saying you had not seen them since 1991?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, I'm saying, in those few weeks they might have stayed for two months and afterwards I never saw them again and I met her again on the day when we met them at the tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: Before they were given lashes by Mr Skhosana, were they questioned about anything, according to your knowledge?