Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: Is that what I said, are you saying I said in court?

MR BOTMA: No, today.  Today, during your evidence in chief.

ZAMA THUTHA: That Thandekulo followed us, please look carefully, take note of what you are saying.  Please don't say things that I didn't say.

MR LAX: Sorry, just for the record, so that you understand carefully.  Your earlier evidence was that you got to this place, he parked the car in a place where you couldn't see the truck, you guys got out and started walking towards the truck.
	He followed you, you said in your evidence, but you don't know where he went.  You carried on towards the truck.  You then explained that you could see the truck, once you got up to the road, you could see the truck.  Do you remember that?  That was earlier this morning?

ZAMA THUTHA: You have taken note and you wrote this down in a way that I didn't say it.  Whenever you ask this question, you are angry.

MR LAX: I am not angry at all.

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't know ..

MR LAX: But any way ...

ZAMA THUTHA: Why do you shout at me, because sometimes you shout or reprimand, in a sense reprimand me when you are talking to me.   What is the cause of that?

INTERPRETER: I think the applicant was referring to impatient.

UNKNOWN: Mr Thutha,  my note on that same point is that we went towards the truck, we left Thandekulo behind.  Thandekulo following us, but not with us.  Just briefly, because you were talking quite fast.  So the sense is that he was with you, essentially.  That is what I noted.

CHAIRPERSON: Not with them?

UNKNOWN: No, follow, in that sense.

ZAMA THUTHA: Have you all got the same note down?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I also indicate that that was also my note, that Thandekulo was following.

CHAIRPERSON: And I gather it is your Attorney's recollection as well?

MR LAX: Translate what he is saying.

ZAMA THUTHA: Why don't you ask him what he wrote, don't think for him.  That is a mistake because you are thinking for him, you can ask him what he wrote.

MR LAX: Listen, we all wrote the same thing, you lawyer is nodding in agreement with us, that that is what he remembers.  Correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is true Mr Chairman.

ZAMA THUTHA: I was not looking at him.

MR LAX: We are trying to ask you to help us, so that we can understand what happened.  It is not about catching you out, you are here to tell us the full truth.
	We need to try and understand, so please now the question is everyone agrees that is what you said.  What did you mean when you said that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please repeat what you say I have said.

MR LAX: Ms Gcabashe can ...

UNKNOWN: No, no, it is his cross-examination, please continue.

CHAIRPERSON: What you said was that you parked the car near a short of bridge, from which you could not, the car could not be seen from the truck, but standing on the road, you could see the truck.
	You then went on to say we went towards the truck, left Thandekulo behind.  He was following us, but he was not with us.

ZAMA THUTHA: Okay, I do understand now.  But you ask a lot of questions, you ask a question and then you ask the question again in a different way, so that confuses me, but now I do understand it, your question.
	Yes, we left Thandekulo behind, but he was watching where we were going.  He was also watching whether are we going to do the job we were given to do.  But, I am sure that my co-accused could not see Thandekulo because he was concentrating on what we were going to do and he was the leader, I was going to assist him.
	The fact that he would look behind, I don't think he would see him, or he did not look behind.  I was besides him there, going with him.

MR BOTMA: Let's get to the point, what did you mean with he followed you?

ZAMA THUTHA: I meant that in the place where we were, where we parked the bakkie, we could not see the truck.  Even if I was standing next to the bakkie, I couldn't see the truck.
	Thandekulo wanted to see that we would do the job we were given, because if he could be in the bakkie, he would not see us in the truck.
	That is why he decided to go next to the road, so that he can see what was happening.

MR BOTMA: Now, on the way towards Mbashi, he overtook your vehicle, and he went passed you, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Where exactly was his truck parked, or his van parked when you got to the forest?

ZAMA THUTHA: You mean in Mbashi?

MR BOTMA: Correct.

ZAMA THUTHA: It was parked in front of the truck, but it was on the side, there was a bush or a shrub next to his van.
	 A person passing by would not see Thandekulo's car, because there were bushes or shrubs next to the car.
	A person would not see that there was a car.  A person would see the truck because of its height, there were also tanks in the truck.

MR BOTMA: These bushes and shrubs, were they on the left hand side of his van?

ZAMA THUTHA: They were on the left hand side, but you must remember that they were, the car could not, you could not see the car.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just clarify something here.  You couldn't see the car from where?  Could you not see it from the road, because that was my initial understanding from what you said this morning?

ZAMA THUTHA: How did you understand me?

MR LAX: That you could not see his bakkie from the road.

ZAMA THUTHA: You are confusing these things.  When you could not see the bakkie, was the first place that we parked Thandekulo's bakkie, before we went to Mike Meyers.
	In Mbashi I did not say it as you are saying it.  That is why I am saying you are writing things that I did not say.

MR LAX: No, I am not saying, I am trying to ask you to help us understand what you said, so that we can clarify this thing.  Could you see the bakkie from the road at Mbashi, yes or no?

ZAMA THUTHA: In Mbashi, a person from a distance for example, as there were people in the bridge next to the river, they would not see the bakkie, but they would see the truck.
	There was a tree or shrub next to the bakkie, so you wouldn't see it.

MR LAX: The question was, could you see the bakkie?  I am not interested in other people, as you drove, approaching the bakkie on the road, could you see it from the road, yes or no?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, we did see the bakkie because it was parked on the road, that I was driving in.

MR LAX: So it was parked on the road side, on the road itself?  Let's clarify that.

ZAMA THUTHA: On the road side.  The wheels were on the road, two wheels were on the road and two wheels on the side of the road, as it was a gravel road.
	In front, on the left side, there was this tree or this shrub, that is why a person couldn't see this van.

MR LAX: So it was obscuring the front of his bakkie?  Was it obscuring the front of his bakkie?

ZAMA THUTHA: A person coming from the front of the bakkie, would not see the bakkie as a whole, but a person coming from behind, would see the bakkie.

MR LAX: From the side, and  a person looking from the side?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, maybe he will see the bakkie, but there were a lot of shrubs on the left side and on the right side.  But there was a kind of a hill on the right side, a person would not see the bakkie, because there were a lot of shrubs on the left side.
	A person would not see it.  Maybe a person across the road, across the bridge would see the bakkie, because there was a kind of a hill.  A person on that side would see the bakkie.
	The person who was closer to the river, he would see the bakkie.

MR BOTMA: That road was going up hill and there was a brickyard on the left hand side, further up hill, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: Where exactly, next to the bridge or before you cross Mbashi or after you've crossed Mbashi, please explain where exactly.

MR BOTMA: From that point where you parked and from where you travelled further on towards Idutywa and on this road, you went passed a brickyard that was up hill from the point you parked earlier?