Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he was acquitted in many instances and at times he was arrested for 14 days, then from there released.  I didn't know the people who were detaining him under those security laws, it was not myself but there were senior officers like Shaw and Erasmus.  I was just helping them that he should be detained and be brought to the office, then they would continue thereafter.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Ngo.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Sorry, who detained him on some of these occasions at least?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We would arrest him at times in the street together with Lieutenant Shaw.  In many instances it was Shaw and Erasmus and Mamome, we would arrest him in the street, at time we would raid him in his house - where he - at home and detain him.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: On whose instructions would you go out to go and arrest him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We received instructions from Colonel Coetzee.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: When you were stationed in Mamelodi, were you the only member of unit 19 stationed at Mamelodi and sleeping at the barracks or where there any other members of the riot unit 19 also stationed there?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Some of them were doing special duties and many of
them were sleeping at the barracks, they were doing special duties.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there any of your colleagues from unit 19 permanently stationed with  you at Mamelodi?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, there was no other one except myself.  They would go there to help there if there was a problem, then thereafter they would leave.  We would give them an information that there is a problem or there'll be riots, then they will be brought to Mamelodi, then from there they would leave.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, you've mentioned two names, I remember one was Duiker, I couldn't catch the other one who assisted you or went with you when you petrol-bombed Sandra's house.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that's true.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they stationed at Mamelodi?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, they were not stationed at Mamelodi.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you find them to accompany you?  Did you go to Roslind?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I did those petrol bombs at the barracks - I found them at the barracks.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they sleeping there at the barracks?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, they were sleeping at the barracks.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they on special duty there or did they only pass by and sleep there?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They would leave and then at times they would come
back and sleep but at times they would leave for a long time.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, whilst we took the tea interval I got instructions from three other people, I'm sorry they are getting so many now that I didn't have the time to consult properly with them.
	In the meantime I phoned my office to give me a clerk to come and help me but please bear with me, I just want to make sure before the applicant stands down whether he knew of these people because they were also victims.  So, have I got your permission to ask a few questions ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You don't want to take further instructions first, you're ready to go on are you?

MR STANDER: It seems to me that I need to have more time to take instructions Mr Chairman, but although I don't want to take up much time.  If it's possible to give me at least 10 minutes just to consult with these people briefly, thank you very much.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't know whether you plan to adjourn right now, I have foreshadowed the fact that I have one or two questions in relation to two of the exhibits which I handed in to Mr Ngo.  It may a convenient time for me to put those questions now - they're very short Mr Chairman, if you will allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, would you please turn to page 35 of bundle A, that is your hand-written part of your application.
	This refers to the bottom of the page Mr Chairman, there's a list of names starting with 1 and ending with 8 so it seems.  The first name Mr Chairman, just for your information, refers to Exhibit P64.  
	I just want to go through this with you quickly Mr Ngo.  You said at page 35 did you not:
"Members of the security police and the riot squad police who participated in the beating up of all comrades arrested at Botshabelo were as follows:"
And the first name is:
"Captain Tsomela"
	Now this Captain Tsomela, you told us today, was not a member of the security branch or did I misunderstand you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he was not a member of the security police.

MR VISSER: Well, of what unit or division of the South African police was he a member?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a member of the uniform police.  We found the police who were arranged - who arranged the raid that included special constables and riot constables, then we found him in that unit and then he was the leader or the senior officer.

MR VISSER: Well, but he couldn't have been a special constable Mr Ngo because you refer to him as Captain Tsomela, don't you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is the riot squad.  You must understand the difference between the riot squad and the security branch.  The security branch are people who were members of the security and riot squad are members of the uniformed police so I've included him as a member of the riot squad and some of them were special constables.
	The objective of the riot squad and special constables was to barr the violence or riots in the townships, some of them were just mentioned as special constables but they were senior, so he was not a member of the security branch.

MR VISSER: Thank you for explaining that to us Mr Ngo.  Will you just please tell us, who was the commanding officer of the riot squad, or don't you know? At that time - I'm talking about at this very time when this incident took place.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We found Captain Tsomela who was senior, that's the one I knew that he was - that station was under him.  When we arrived, we found the police there.  Whoever was the commanding officer then, I didn't know, the police were many whom we found at that place but I knew that he was senior because he was a captain.

MR VISSER: Is it your evidence Mr Ngo, that Captain Tsomela also received instructions from Coetzee and/or Stevenson or from anyone else to beat up these arrested and detained persons, is that your evidence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We found instructions - as we were members of the security branch, to assault those people from Colonel Coetzee and Stevenson.  We were together with the members of the riot squad so Captain Tsomela was among of those people.

MR VISSER: Okay.  And in fact you stated at page 35, that he was one of the people who participated in beating up of all the comrades arrested at Botshabelo, did you not?  I just want to hear whether that is correct.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Captain Tsomela appeared there as a person whom we arrived who was - then he was leader of, or senior to those police who were present so the instructions to assault those people, we found them from Colonel Coetzee.

MR VISSER: Let me ask the question this way, is what you stated at page 35 in regard to Captain Tsomela, is that the correct evidence?