Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-28

COMMISSIONER: I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the cinema.  Do you know how many people died in that cinema massacre?  Do you know how many people died?

WITNESS:  15 people.

COMMISSIONER: And how were most of them killed?

WITNESS:   They were shot and also they were stabbed.

COMMISSIONER: And you said in your evidence that you recall seeing Mr Wellington Sabela leading that group into the cinema, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, I saw him.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... Mr Sabela at the time?  What position did he hold at the time?  Was he a member of the ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   He was a Member of Parliament of KwaZulu.

COMMISSIONER: The Legislative Assembly?

WITNESS:   Yes.  You know, he had also many other positions.

COMMISSIONER: Where did you go after your house was burnt down, and after your wife died?

WITNESS:   I went to hide.  I went to lodge from the ... (inaudible - end of side A) ... place, Masinga.  Even there I was told to leave.  They told me I should just leave the family.  Professor Fatima found me a place at Umbilo. That's where I was, at Umbilo.  After some time I could not even stay longer there.  I therefore decided, because I had an office at Dhanjee Centre, I decided to work during the day, and at night I could sleep.  When other co-workers leave I will just remain and sleep there, and my wife will bring everything there.  And my wife will come at night to bring me some food at Dhanjee Centre at night so that people could not see and locate them.  Even there I was chased, I was told to leave, because those people came at night, coming to attack at 1.00 am.  What helped me, I picked up my telephone and called a friend who has just been buried recently by the name of Gumbi, and my wife also, I told her that, "Here are these people.  Please come and rescue me.  They are here attacking me once again here in the office at 1.00 am."  Gumbi did come, and I therefore thought it's dangerous still be there, maybe I should leave and go to Umlazi.  I went back to Umlazi, as I am still alive today.

COMMISSIONER: And have you bought another house, or have you rebuilt your house in Umlazi now?

WITNESS:   Yes, I was renting a neighbour's house.  I occupied that house up until I got another house at Section C, which I was using it as my office, conducting my business from there.  I spoke to the township manager.  That's how they gave me that house.  But my house that was burnt it's just now that I am trying to renovate it, to build it once again, because I am not so free where I am.  It's just - it's only a four-roomed, and, you know, coming from a bigger house now, occupying a four-roomed house it's something - it's a nightmare.  I cannot even be free.  I just need a bigger house now.

COMMISSIONER: I just want to ask one or two questions about the Umlazi Cinema incident.  You said that there were soldiers there, or policemen, before the ... (intervention)

WITNESS:  Both.

COMMISSIONER: Both.  Were they SADF soldiers and - what, SAP or KZP, the KwaZulu Police or the South African Police?

WITNESS:  It was just confusion.

COMMISSIONER: So were they there before the people were killed?  Were the police and the army there at the cinema before the attack took place?

WITNESS:   People died at the time when the attackers came.  You know, they came to damage the cars outside, and the police were there present, in the presence of the police and soldiers, and helped them.  And now they were using tear-gas.  You know, when they came in we were already dying.

COMMISSIONER: So did the police and the army attempt to disarm this group that you said was led by Mr Sabela?

WITNESS:   Oh, no.  No, it was just one thing.  They were just united and doing this act.

COMMISSIONER: And, Mr Gasa, when your house was attacked you said people came in buses, or a bus, a large group of people came and attacked and burned your house.  Do you know who they were?  Do you know where they were from?  Do you know whether there were any - were there any people there whose names that you know?

WITNESS:   This is a hearsay because I wasn't there in person, but those people were Inkatha people.  Mr Sibiya was there, the Inkatha cornerstone members, and the other one that I mentioned his name, and also the people from Lindelani.  It was the day of the funeral of the people who were killed at the cinema, so they were being buried on that day.  The aim - the intention was to disturb the funeral of those people who died at the cinema.  They were just there to destruct and cause confusion.  Because they knew that ANC will be there, so they wanted to destruct and cause commotion at the funeral, and after that they intended to go and attack Gasa's place.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Gasa, these terrible events which you have told us, how have you managed to keep yourself going over the past eight to 10 years?  Have you been living with your children?  How have you coped?  We see today here, although you have given us a very disturbing story, you still sound as though you are a positive man and you are in control of your life.  How have you managed to cope with your life since then?

WITNESS:   Even when we are not in church here, we are not talking about church issues here, but I would like to say this.  When there is something within you, you know, that is your hope, something that is your hope, you know, something that you are always counting on.  What can I say?  I don't know how to put this, but you know that hope you have, when you are holding firm on that hope, that hope makes you feel stronger.  You know, even when things are tough, but when you keep hoping to that clasp, the clasp that I am holding here.  But in my case my hope is with God.  I keep hoping in my God.  You see when things happen, and when things transpire, I kneel and pray to my God.  I have never said "God, put me in this wicked earth, but now that I am here in this earth, Lord, take control of me."  You know, I believe in my God, and this is so much helpful to me, that when things happen left and right and centre I know my hope is with God.  You know, I have this hope within me that here is - that's my God who brought me here.  Or even when people can do things, events can transpire, one thing I know for sure is that my God is with me, and I worship him.  And my God will see me through, because I always mean well.  I never mean evil.  I never want to do evil or intend evil.  I always mean well, and I struggle.  I struggle because I know very well that God cannot come to me and even provide me with food, so I have to struggle even for life.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Gasa.  I will just ask my fellow commissioners and committee members if they want to ask any questions.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Gasa, the power you have is so inexplicable.  I don't know what I can say about this.  As the pastor I feel so great and good about what you have just said.  What I usually say is that you cannot be a politician not believing in God, not being a believer.  You know, we used to walk around with Luthuli still boys way back then.  You know this struggle was initiated by the believers.  Even Jesus Christ himself did struggle in this earth, and he was the son of God.  You have made mention of the people who attacked you, that Mr Sibiya was one of them.  Is Mr Sibiya still around?

WITNESS:   No.  What he was trying to do, that evil he was trying to do, he was the one who was affected.  He died.

COMMISSIONER: Are you trying to say he was killed, or he died in this violence?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Amongst the people you've said who were others?

WITNESS:   It's Mr Shabalala.  He is still alive.

COMMISSIONER: You mean Shabalala of Lindelani?

WITNESS:   Yes, Shabalala of Lindelani is still alive.  You know, if they were clever enough they should come back and ask for forgiveness.  They still have an opportunity.