Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: I received the instruction that the bomb must be planted in Johannesburg and we talked about it and that is what is was about.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, it was your decision that the bomb should go off in that particular area, on the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh.

MR LE ROUX: Not only mine, Barnard and myself together decided on that.

MR LANDMAN: Now, is it correct that that is an area, the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh where a lot of black people walk up and down to the station and into town?

MR LE ROUX: There were black people, yes.

MR LANDMAN: Is it known to you to be an area where there are a lot more black people than white people?  Isn't that so Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: It could be but at that stage I did not think about it.  The points that Barnard stipulated to me was that it's not about black or white, whites had to be involved in certain cases.  If we wanted to be racist we could have planted a bomb in the middle of Soweto.

MR LANDMAN: I might have been a bit difficult for you to escape from Soweto unnoticed, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: I've already driven into Soweto and driven back.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way Mr le Roux, why wasn't the bomb planted in the capital of the country, namely Pretoria?

MR LE ROUX: It was Barnard who said it must be Johannesburg.  I don't know why he took that decision.  He gave the order regarding that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, when you chose to stop on the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh Streets, what did you understand was the motive behind the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: The basic motive was the prevention of the election, to create a psychosis of fear and to convey the message of the Volkstaat.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, did somebody tell you that?  Did somebody say to you: "Look, this is the motive behind the bombing", or is that something you worked out yourself?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, amongst each other we talked about this.  Barnard and I discussed it and he also mentioned it.

MR LANDMAN: Now, in order to publicise your desire for the Volkstaat, I assume that you wanted the public to know that the AWB was behind this bombing?

MR LE ROUX: If I purely made the decision, it would have been that way but I did not purely make the decision Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Do you not find it strange that the AWB did not, immediately after the bombing when it was announced on the radio, take responsibility for the bombing?  This is now before the elections?

MR LE ROUX: It was strange to me but I could say it was very short period, it was the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and Wednesday was the election and  I ascribed it to that.

MR LANDMAN: But in reality Mr le Roux, you know that somebody could have phoned one of the newspapers or the SABC at any stage to claim responsibility, isn't that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is probably so Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And that Sunday afternoon, according to what you tell us, that was the start of this campaign to prevent the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I was not in command of the whole operation.

MR LANDMAN: Have you ever asked anybody why the AWB failed to announce that it was responsible for the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: I did ask it afterwards but it was a few months afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: From whom did you ask it?

MR LE ROUX: Well I asked the leader of the AWB himself.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was that?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Terreblanche.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, if you wanted to create a situation where people did not want to go and vote, why didn't you target any of the polling stations?

MR LE ROUX: I did not give that instruction Chairperson, I was only a part of the execution of this instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but Mr le Roux, you were charged to choose where the bomb would be planted.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I was told that the bomb must go off in Johannesburg and because of that I said, the day was given to me, the time, and we discussed it further as such and we decided where to place the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that then there was also an election in Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore there had to be polling stations?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know where those polling stations were.  I did not know, not as far as Johannesburg was concerned.

ADV BOSMAN: The question I want to ask you Mr le Roux, if you can just clarify it for me.  If it didn't matter where in Johannesburg, why were they looking for somebody who knew Johannesburg?  Can you answer that?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, Cliffie Barnard, Koper Myburgh, they come from farms and they know very little about the city.  While we were driving there they didn't even know the names of the streets and that's why I was chosen for that.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to argue with you, I just want to convey to you what bothers me.  A city is a city and unless you want a specific part of the city for a specific purpose, if you drive through a city the buildings are close to each other.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Just let me finish.  The question I have is, they knew where Johannesburg was I assume and they can observe buildings.  If you could just give a bit more clarity why would somebody have to know the city to determine the density of the area?  Maybe I just don't grasp well enough what you are trying to say.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, one of the things Cliffie and I discussed was to get the bomb to Johannesburg as quickly as possible and then to get out of the city as quickly as possible and he didn't know, he couldn't move around in Johannesburg.  I can assure you he wouldn't even be able to distinguish Sandton from Johannesburg.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, if we can just talk about where you placed the bomb.  Is it correct that the Carlton Centre area is quite deserted on a Sunday afternoon, there aren't many people in that area?

MR LE ROUX: I would agree with that Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Is that not the reason why you chose an area other than the Carlton Centre?

MR LE ROUX: The Bree Street was also relatively deserted on that time on a Sunday Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But you knew that there were people walking in the streets, coming and going?

MR LE ROUX: It would been the case at the Carlton Centre as well.

MR LANDMAN: Were you aware of the Monte Carlo Hotel on the corner of Von Wielligh and Bree Streets?

MR LE ROUX: I take the detail into consideration, I just had a broad idea and we applied it as such.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, but Mr le Roux, what I'm asking you is this, were you aware that there was a hotel on that corner?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know anything about the buildings around that corner?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know specifically, I had a general idea of the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, as I understand your evidence, the instruction was to take as few people's lives as possible in this operation, is that not true?

MR LE ROUX: It's not as few as possible Mr Chairperson, people had to die but not too many.

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of the Carlton Centre where there is a lot of space, you decided to choose a place where there were a lot of buildings.  Isn't it that a person would expect that there would be more people in buildings than there would be in a spacious area?

MR LE ROUX: It could be Chairperson.  My personal motivation was that you sometimes look for a place close to yourself and that was, when we went over the line there we could only turn into Bree Street basically and then we were in Johannesburg, that was just something.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, arising from that may I ask you this, what route did you take from the Rustenburg area to Johannesburg?  Did you come via Hartebeespoort Dam?