Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who drove the vehicle?  Who was the driver of the vehicle?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The name of the driver was Seun Dasi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just - you said the idea was to get just people to assist you, did it matter to which organisation they belonged, those people who were going to assist you, whether they belonged to an organisation or they did not belong to any, did it matter to you?  The only thing you wanted was the people to assist you.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I had a person who was commanding me.  I do not know what was his intention in what he said to them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, continue.

ADV SANDI: Just a bit of clarity on that one.  These two people, did you know them before?  Had you met them before?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No.

ADV SANDI: Were they using their real names or code names?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I only learned of the two names, Potsotso and Seun Dasi and those are the only names I knew, I didn't know the others.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue.  Then you hired a taxi to Theunissen, ...(indistinct)
MR PUDUMO
The taxi owner said he wanted us to pay R50 to take us to that place and I said to him:  "Yes, I will give you the money" and indeed we took a trip.
		Before arriving at the place of the attack, we stopped the car and we told him to turn back, not to reach the place where we were going to and I asked my Commander the reason for that.  He told me:  "These people are here to assist us, they were not trained, they are just here to assist us with taking whatever we will repossess" and he gave an order that the car should turn back and these people should remain here and the two of us went ahead and he gave them an order, he said:  "You stand here, you wait here until we tell you to go back or to come and assist us carry the things we are supposed to take."  
		When we arrived at the place, we got into a farm.  When we arrived at the farm, we found a girl working at that farm.  I knocked at the door.  When this girl came out, Rasta Moloto talked to her, he said to her he wanted to see the white man.  This girl went into the house to call the white man.  Rasta Moloto said to him:  "Listen man, you have nothing to say, I am in command here".  I asked what the reason for that, what if these people they were many people, and he said to me:  "The language used here is Afrikaans."  
		The white man approached.  I did not understand what they were talking further but after a few minutes I noticed a white woman coming out of the door.  After her a dog came out.  She tried to stop it, she tried to take it back into the house but it refused, it went outside.  When the white man came out, my commander prepared a firearm to get into the house.  He gave me an order at that stage.  He said:  "Man, you must be aware now, we are fighting".  
		On our way to this place, we had two firearms.  I had a 38 with me and he had a .22.  Indeed I waited outside, he got into the house pointing a gun at the white woman.  I was left outside with this man.  The woman was making noise to alert the people inside that there was something going on outside.  After a few minutes when they were inside, I heard gunshots.  The white man left me at the door.  When he got inside, I noticed that I was now left on my own.  I managed to shoot at him when he was quite a distance ahead of me.  When I looked in front of me, the person who was with me was already shot, he was lying down there.  I went to fetch him from where he had fallen.  Luckily he had a gunshot wound, but he just slipped and he fell.  I grabbed the gun from him and when I went back towards the door, I saw a young white woman, she had a firearm with her.  I shot her.  Now this person who was with me managed to stand up.  
		Now on our way back a young white man, a white woman - another white woman was there, she had a shoe, but the heel of the shoe was faced towards - was pointed at me and I noticed that this person wanted to scare us, but the person was approaching.  On passing the first door in the corridor, I noticed two people talking in this room and I had to shoot at this person who was approaching us.  The person who was with me, took the firearm from me and I was left with one firearm.  I asked him:  "Are you still okay?  Are you still in a well condition to fight?"  He said:  "Let us leave this place."  I tried to accompany him up to the door, so that we could go outside.  When I turned back, I saw another white person.  Because of the noise and because it was chaotic, I did not even take into consideration who she was, but it was a woman.  After looking at her, she ran back into the house and we managed to get out of the house.  I had to stand at the door for quite some time, so that my injured colleague could walk a distance.  
		After we had left and just close to a hill, he fell.  I got suspicious the way he fell, it looked as if he was loosing energy.  When I looked up there where the road came from, I saw many cars driving down and I had to be safe where I was, I had to run away.  I tried to run to him to check as to whether he was still alive or not, but I could not do that because the cars were approaching fast and they were now very close.  That was my escape.  
		I did not go to the two people that we left behind, I only noticeD Potsotso passing and I noticed that they were not at the place where they were commanded to stay and we disbursed.  Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Pudumo, is it not correct that the two that were left at that post did not want to enter the premises immediately they were told that you are going there to rob?  Is that not the reason they were left behind, because they refused to enter immediately you told them that you are going there to rob?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is not true.  My Commander gave me an instruction and I told them, you wait here until we come back.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you tell them?  You didn't know them, your Commander is there on the scene, why did he tell them:  "You wait here until we come back", why did you do the ordering?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: After the car was stopped, the Commander jumped out and he called me and he said to me:  "This car is turning back."  He said to me:  "This car is going to stop right here, it's not going to our destination.  Can you please tell these people to wait here, we will call them."  That was the reason why those people were left behind.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they know the reason why you were going there?  Did you not tell them that you're going there to fetch money?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I don't know whether the Commander told them what we were going to do, but he talked to them.  I don't know what he told them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At what stage did he talk to them?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: May you repeat your question please?

MR MBANDAZAYO: You told the Committee that the Commander talked to them, the two other people, you don't know what he told them.  Now I'm asking, at which stage did he talk to them?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: When these people arrived at me, my Commander told me:  "We are now ready, we are now leaving and he said:  "Are you ready with your car?"  We managed then to get into a car and left.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you get this car at Virginia?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How far from Virginia is this farm?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It's quite a long distance, I would not give kilometres, but it's from Virginia to Theunissen

JUDGE DE JAGER: How long did you drive, an hour, two hours to get there?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I wouldn't want to commit myself, but what I know is that we drove a long distance.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.