Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, could I also just mention for the record that I'm really disappointed about this - to put it mildly, we have done our very best to assist Mr Prior in getting this process on the go under really difficult circumstances.  Those difficult circumstances also relate to what we are paid, we are not paid what other White counsel - there was an article which appeared in the Weekly Mail about the gravy train, Black counsel here have definitely come to the station and that train left or we're in 3rd class - we don't get paid the same amount of money.
	I accept that we accept the brief and that we must fulfil that brief but we are also doing that under very difficult circumstances, including making the arrangements for these applicants to come from various prisons outside the Western Cape when we have to do that in our own time and for which we are not remunerated Mr Chairman.  So Mr Mabala was the last applicant that came there on Wednesday and that is only when we had an opportunity of sitting down with all three in order to get out ducks in a row.  
	So really - and that is why I indicated that this will raise problems with the credibility of the legal representatives and I don't think it is proper for that to be raised in this forum.  If we are to be involved Mr Chairman, in other or future amnesty applications then we have to reconsider our position.  These applicants do not have the opportunity of - when they fill out these forms, of legal representation and guidance.  Mr Gqomfa, - as you can see as it's clear from the record, is clearly way above the other applicants as far as his education is concerned and also the way he articulates himself.  The other two haven't had the benefit of legal representation. Now we come along at a late stage and we tried our best to assist and then our integrity is put into question, I don't think that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think that - just to put the record straight, I don't think you should worry about your integrity and Advocate Goza's integrity.  We're not questioning your integrity, this is not impugning anything about your integrity or that you didn't do your work.  I think we should get that out of the way please.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, then we should get an indication Mrs - unless Ms - my colleague must go on oath, she has now said unless it's accepted by the Committee and Mr Prior that those were Mr Madasi's instructions.  There was clearly a communication problem between my and my colleague and Mr Madasi, it was not incorporated in the prepared statement that was handed to Mr Prior as a matter of  courtesy in the first place.  And unless that's accepted, then only can I accept what you're saying Mr Chairman, about our integrity not being impugned.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept counsel's word that the client had told them that he had entered the tavern, I have no difficulty in accepting your word for that.

JUDGE WILSON: I would like to agree, I'd do the same.  My comment was that the witness should have said so, we accept entirely that he did tell counsel as counsel says but the witness doesn't want to answer questions directly, he goes on giving explanations - that is the point I'm seeking to make, not for one moment to impugn what counsel has said happened.

CHAIRPERSON: That should clear the air, we may now proceed.  Will you proceed with the next aspect of the case.

MR PRIOR: Well I want to suggest and I'm enjoying to suggest Mr Chairman, that your evidence here to a large extent was affected by what you saw on the video yesterday and that is the irresistible conclusion that whoever shot the deceased within the tavern had had to be inside the premises and not outside as suggested by Mr Gqomfa in his evidence in the main.

ADV SANDI: Is that a question or a statement to him Mr Prior?

CHAIRPERSON: It's been put to him.

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What is the question actually?

MR PRIOR: Well, let me try and simplify it.  Your evidence now has been affected or influenced by what you saw - to a very large extent yesterday, on the screen - on the video.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all I disagree with you because what I saw yesterday I was not seeing it for the first time, we saw it in court.

MR PRIOR: All right, I want you to look at Exhibit A, the bundle that you have of photographs.  Now when you arrived at the Heidelberg Tavern in the stolen Opel motorcar, who was the driver?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was Maxeba.

MR PRIOR: And where had the - was Maxeba also from Cape Town like yourself?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, it's only I and Xolani Jantjie who are originally from Cape Town.

MR PRIOR: Where - was Maxeba from at that time, the Transkei?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know much of his background but we met in Transkei.

MR PRIOR: Well, did he seem to know Cape Town or did he not seem to know Cape Town at all?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was obvious that he had people he knew around Cape Town but I didn't know those people.

MR PRIOR: All right, who - when you stopped in the street outside the tavern, can you tell us what occurred then - who got out and who went where?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The first person to get out of the car, it was comrade Luyanda and he was followed by comrade Jantjie, after comrade Jantjie it was comrade Sebeko and I followed after comrade Sebeko and I went to stand next to the door - that's what happened.

MR PRIOR: Is that the door that we see on the first photograph?
	Mr Chairman, could we mark that first photograph, the pages are marked in numerical sequence, could we mark the top photograph small a and the bottom - the second photograph, b just to facilitate identification.

CHAIRPERSON: We will do that.

MR PRIOR: If you look at 1a on Exhibit A, you indicated the door that is open to the left as it appears on the photograph - that is the door where you entered, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Do you mean the left door?

MR PRIOR: Your left, as you look at the photograph.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, this is the door that I used.

MR PRIOR: And that door was open, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, it was open.

MR PRIOR: And you entered into the tavern through that door?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I used that door.

MR PRIOR: I'm asking you, you entered and walked into the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I didn't move straight from the vehicle and straight to the door, I just took a cover on the corner.

MR PRIOR: Listen to my question - when you stood at that door, did you then during the attack go inside the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I did went inside the tavern.

MR PRIOR: How many steps or paces would you say you to took inside the tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I can't say how many steps but everything that was happening, it was happening so fast but I'm sure that I went right inside the tavern.

MR PRIOR: All right, now look at the windows of the area where the double doors are situated, that is the area underneath writing: "Bar and Restaurant".  Can you see that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I can see the broken windows.

MR PRIOR: Did you enter into that portion of the establishment?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Do you mean about the - do you mean the broken windows?  I didn't use the broken windows, I went inside through the door.

MR PRIOR: Yes, and did you turn right through the archway or doorway that's obscured on this photograph and did you enter into the portion of the establishment that you can see behind the closed double doors?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There's something like a wall, I took a cover against that wall because the other comrades were shooting.  I didn't go straight and stand where they would fire me, I just took a cover and I began to shoot because they were also shooting.

MR PRIOR: Did you never move from that position where you had taken cover behind the wall?