Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: I am sure that it wouldn't be terribly difficult for us to put together a whole number of statements, when we've made this point before that there hasn't been, there isn't on the part of the ANC any intention to assassinate Dr Buthelezi. I'm sure we've said that many times. To address a specific question whether we are threatening to do such a thing and we responded and we thought that that was adequate.
The earlier question I was talking about, Zuma yesterday spoke about 12 A-side meetings. You had in the IFP like Dr Mdhlalose, Ben Ngubane, Chief Mgubane, Chief Gumede, Viti Zulu, CJ Mtetwa, all sorts of people, and we'd really seriously sit and engage these questions, what do we do? What I was saying, we would make progress in those discussions and we are quite convinced that this leadership of the IFP with whom we're interacting, in great detail about many things, language, what kind of language should be used, what kind of language is permissible or not, what sort of language incites violence, let's set up a committee there and have a look at that kind of thing.
This question of organising public meetings, how do we organise public meetings in localities so that there is freedom of political activity for everybody but we handle it in a manner sot that you don't have conflict. I'm saying all manner of detail of this kind.
Where there are the SDU's and SPU's, how do we go back to the original concept, merge these things, let them protect communities and so on. We are quite convinced that the people sitting across the table from us were being quite serious about all of this and wanted this violence to end, and there was no suggestion at any point that they believed that we, the ANC side to these discussions, was not being serious.
Let's institute a programme of action therefore, to go down, to talk to the communities, let's start with rallies that shall be addressed by Mandela and Buthelezi together and then here is a program which we - that kind of detail. Invariably trouble would flare up somewhere, the thing collapses, doesn't move. I'm saying that we had absolutely no reason to believe that this leadership of the IFP with whom we were discussing was not really seriously engaged and being honest about these processes, but somewhere, and it might start in any particular way in a locality, as you are saying it might start in a locality, something erupts in a locality, it's not ordered from above by these because they wouldn't order it in any case. But somebody else who doesn't have an interest in the resolution of this conflict starts it.
There's a police officer who was serving a prison sentence, he was telling Penwill Maduna and myself a story about I think '93 or '94, beginning of '94 about one of the Johannesburg townships. He was a Special Branch officer, they managed to infiltrate a civic association in one of the African Townships around Johannesburg, infiltrated it and really basically ran it or sought to run it with their agents within the civic association, but it kind of ran away with them and the ANC became too strong within it. So they decided no the best thing to do is to create an alternative civic association. So they created it, split this one and created a second civic association and of course, elements of conflict began to brew.
And a second one was developing, was also beginning to look like it is going to run away with them, the ANC political influence generally in the township is too strong and people tend to drift in that direction. So they had to think of an alternative plan, what do we do? Let's split this one again and create a third one. You know that kind of thing.
So, now when trouble then erupts between these it's seeming trouble between two political factions who are basically ANC but are fighting each other for power, but it was Special Branch. But I'm saying it looks as though there's something that's popped up on its own in this particular locality as a result of these political rivalries. It wasn't, it was Special Branch. I'm saying in this particular instance, precisely that kind of thing.
This person who sits in a hostel as an induna, who actually belongs to these old State structures of the National Security management System and so on, is then prompted, now you go and do this thing because this progress towards peace is coming on too strong, so there was a thesis amongst some of the White intelligence officers, I don't know if they've abandoned it, that if you had - you see you have this proposition. The ANC is Xhosa, right, a Xhosa organisation, Inkatha is Zulu, what you need to do is to make sure that under no circumstances should these two organisations get together, because once you've combined the Zulu and the Xhosa, you have permanent one party domination in this country for ever and ever, amen.
So make sure that this doesn't happen. This is part of what underlay the conflict, the sustenance of the conflict between the ANC and the IFP, to make sure in this very foolish perception, that you don't allow the Xhosa and Zulu organisations to get together. So nobody's going to stand up and say, I started that particular conflict in Kwamashu on the 1st of March as perpetuation of this problem, it will come across to you and I as being part of this intolerance that has not been addressed whereas it was very, very organised to achieve a particular purpose.
So that's why I'm saying the people, the leadership and even at lower levels, the membership of the IFP and ANC really tried very hard to engage this question of peace between themselves but couldn't succeed until you took the elements organised to cause violence, until you dealt with them as a law enforcement problem, that creates a space to find a political settlement.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif.