Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson I have one comment to make and one request to ask from yourself.  First I would like to express all of our appreciation to Ms Tiny Maya who has been ill for two days and despite that with remarkable efficiency and skill has helped the Commission enormously in its task and I would like to just pay that tribute to her.
 Secondly, Mr Chairperson I'd like your permission not to adjourn at this time.  We only have one last witness to hear and I want to propose that we continue and have tea at the conclusion.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: I think that is very sensible coming from a Methodist, yes.

DR BORAINE: With your permission Mr Chairperson I invite Joe Thethinene Jordan to come to the stand.  Good afternoon Mr Jordan.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Good afternoon.

DR BORAINE: You are making a little bit of history by being the last witness we are hearing in the historic opening hearings in the Eastern Cape of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and we welcome you.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordan I am not going to talk about your present office, but I am going to say that it's in very strong contradiction and very different from the time when
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you suffered a great deal for your political beliefs.  You were harassed and assaulted and tortured continuously and it's a remarkable thing that you are alive to tell the story and we are delighted and we are very pleased that you are here and Mr Ntsiki Sandi is going to lead you as you tell your story. Thank you very much.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Thank you.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much.  Mr Jordan when we were talking you said your history is a long one.  If you could talk especially about the statement that you have given to us, is that so?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: Mr Jordan you stay here at East London?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: How long have you been here?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: It is over 20 years.

MR SANDI: What are you doing presently?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: I am a member of the legislature in Bisho Eastern Cape Province.

MR SANDI: I am certain that there was no reason for you to ask for permission to be here because you share the Parliament.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: I can see that even the speaker of the Parliament Linda is also here.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes it is.

MR SANDI: There in the legislature is there a committee?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes it is local government Chairperson.  I am also in the Agricultural Standing Committee.

MR SANDI: The evidence that you are going to give us today, as I understand it, it is in connection with on the
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2nd of September 1985 when you were arrested.  Can you tell us what happened during the day when you were arrested?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: When I went to summarise this long story of that day because I said we can take three hours giving the history if I have to give details, but presently I would just like to state that on this second day of August the time was after one.  I was from home.  I was staying at Pembelele at the time.  I was going to the garage to take the car which was at service.  Coming back from there my friend Vuyisile Mabeka joined me, he was staying at Tsolo at the time.  He was also going to town so I gave him a lift. On our way when we were joining the highway we discovered that there are police, there were soldiers, forces in camouflage uniform, when we got there along the road there was the other one who came to me and was followed by two others. When he came nearer to me he said here is this one who drives the green Cortina who is the one who takes the people and transports them.

MR SANDI: What problem was he referring to at Duncan Village?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: At that time it was not stable.  The conditions were not stable.  It was riots.

MR SANDI: Is that the time when the massacre at Duncan Village took place?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: I think the previous day it was a mass funeral for the people who were killed at Duncan Village.  Well I asked him which car.  He accused me, he said keep quiet you know the car, even yesterday you were driving that car to fetch Suwisa and you transported Steve Tshwete as well.
 Well I wanted to - I didn't want to show him that I have information.  I was forced to talk to them because of 
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the firearms they were having.  I was assaulted on that day, and I was made to lie on my stomach very close to the Hippo, joining others who were already arrested.

MR SANDI: Now among the people who you transported as the soldiers arrested you, you said Mr Steve Tshwete was also there, is he the Minister of Sport today?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did you transport him as well to the funeral?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes I fetched him from Mdantsane to go to the funeral.  Because of the bad conditions we had to change cars because mine was already known.

MR SANDI: Well after having been arrested for transportation of people ...(intervention)

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes I was arrested to transport Mr Steve Tshwete and other people, especially the people whom I used to transport to the hospital when they were shot.

MR SANDI: What happened after you had been made to lie down on your stomachs?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Three police vans came and we were all put in and we were sent to Duncan Village Police station.  That is where a guard of honour was already in order.  They had sjamboks and every kind of weapon assaulting us.

MR SANDI: Can I take you back a little while.  You said you were made to lie on the floor on your stomachs, how did you feel when you were made to lie on the floor?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: It's not a very nice thing to be instructed to lie on your stomach by another man.  You know the onlookers were there having a look.

MR SANDI: And from there you were taken to a police station?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes.
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MR SANDI: Which police station?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: It was Duncan Village police station.  We were welcomed by sjamboks and everything that they were using to hit us, but when we entered into the rooms three of them were first - they were put right at the corner and they were boxed, they were assaulted.  They were asked where did they meet me.  They said no he arrived as we were already at the proceeding, we didn't even see him. At that time Captain van Wyk arrived.

MR SANDI: What did they use to assault you?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: It was the gun pipes and the sjamboks.

MR SANDI: Were they beating you all over the body?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: It's not very easy if you hit a man and then he jumps over the fence but you know there was blood.

MR SANDI: You said van Wyk arrived, what happened then?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Well I was put aside, my turn was also coming.  Van Wyk came in, he was from Cambridge, he was together with Mahlewu(?) and Radie, they were three in number.  Van Wyk was wearing shorts, wearing a vest with a towel, wearing takkies as if he was from a gym.  He entered and he saw me, he said Joe, today I've got you.  He instructed the police that were there, he said don't touch that one, you cannot touch him he's an executive you don't have right to touch him.

MR SANDI: You say Van Wyk, Radie and Mahlewu arrived, are they the three policemen?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Were they the security?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes they were the security.

MR SANDI: Where is Mahlewuas we are talking now?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: He passed away.
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MR SANDI: What killed him?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: No I don't know, he just died, I don't know what killed him really.