Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-05

CHAIRPERSON: We are proceeding with the application of Mr Wiseman Ngxongo.  Yesterday we adjourned to afford Mr Wills an opportunity to consult with Mr Mbambo as well as any of his clients who might be implicated or whose testimony might have a bearing on the application and the evidence given by Mr Ngxongo.  Mr Wills are you now ready to put any questions to Mr Ngxongo?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Chairperson, can I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so Sir.

MR WILLS: Mr Ngxongo, the first thing I want to concentrate on is your relationship with Sipiwe Umviani.  I'm first going to ask a few little questions.  The car that you drove from your home in Umlasi to pick up Mr Mbambo, the V.W. Caravelle, I believe that was Mr Umviani's car, is that correct?

MONDLI NGXONGO: (s.u.o.)  That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now do you know who was the person who gave Mr Umviani the orders to carry out the hit on Mr Teledi originally.  You have testified to the effect that Mr Umviani had discussed this issue with you prior to his death.  Do you know who gave him the instructions?

MONDLI NGXONGO: You mean instruction to kill Mr Teledi?

MR WILLS: Yes.

MONDLI NGXONGO: Mrs Umbiasi.

MR WILLS: Was she the only person involved?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Sipiwe got the instructions from Mrs Umbiasi and some of the instructions he used to get them from Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Yes, my instructions are that you frequently would accompany Sipiwe Umviani to go to Ulundi and you had attended
Brigadier Mati's office on occasions, is that correct?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that on certain occasions you would get instructions in those meetings with Brigadier Mati.

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The purpose of my question is to establish this, can you remember in one of these meetings as to whether or not Brigadier Mati was involved in the instructions for this killing of Teledi?

MONDLI NGXONGO: I can't remember

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Wills?
	How do you know that Mrs Umbiasi gave Mr Umviani instructions to have Mr Teledi killed?

MONDLI NGXONGO: When he received the instruction he left me behind because he was needed at Mrs Umbiasi place.  When he came back he told me as to what was discussed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know which month such instructions were given by Mrs Umbiasi to Mr Umviani?

MONDLI NGXONGO: No I can't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  There's been evidence before the Amnesty Committee that at one stage Mr Umviani was given a job in Ulundi in the police, do you know if that's correct?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you know what job that was?

MONDLI NGXONGO: When Sipiwe was involved in many cases, I think about 39 cases, he went to Ulundi and he met Dr M G Buthelezi who decided that since he's been involved in many cases in Umlazi then he decided that they should open a firearm unit and Sipiwe was going to be a head of that unit.

MR WILLS: And my instructions are further that when Sipiwe died this firearms unit was closed, are you able to comment on that?

MONDLI NGXONGO: I don't know whether it was closed but it was quiet after Sipiwe died.  I cannot confirm that it was closed but I never heard anything about the unit.

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes, I'm going to turn now to your dealings with Mrs Umbiasi.  You said in your evidence that you first met Mrs Umbiasi in early 1992, do you recall that?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee circumstances and the context of that meeting?

MONDLI NGXONGO: I was in Sipiwe's company and he was going to introduce me to Mrs Umbiasi.  She was supposed to know that I was one of the people who were working with Sipiwe in Durban South Region where Sipiwe was the head or the commander.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that Sipiwe wanted to introduce you to Mrs Umbiasi as you were one of the hit squad members working under Sipiwe?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Early 1992.

MR WILLS: Now why do you think Sipiwe wanted to introduce you to Mrs Umbiasi in this context?

MONDLI NGXONGO: I think it's because Mrs Umbiasi had the knowledge that Sipiwe was the commander of the hit squad in the Southern Region of Durban therefore she needed to know about other members as well or new members.  The South Region of Durban, that's where we were operating.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say the South Region of Durban, the locations that you named yesterday in your evidence?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Your evidence yesterday was that you went - you left Durban, you went to Mr Mbambo's house and you discussed with Mr Mbambo the telephone call you'd had with Mr Mkwena about the fact that Teledi was still causing trouble and then after that your words were that you and I mean you in the plural sense, you and Mbambo decided to go and see Mrs Umbiasi, is that correct?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes that is correct, we were supposed to give her the knowledge.

MR WILLS: And was that the only purpose of your visit to Mrs Umbiasi?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you arrived at Mrs Umbiasi and she said to you that you must essentially go immediately to execute this mission, is that right, you didn't even have time to pick up clothes?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: My instructions are that she gave you money for petrol for the car?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct because when I left Durban I didn't know that I was going to proceed to Nelspruit, I only had enough petrol to go to Empangeni and back to Durban.

MR WILLS: What would have happened if Mrs Umbiasi had told you not to go?

MONDLI NGXONGO: We didn't have powers to do things on our own.  If she said so we were not going to do so.

MR WILLS: Yes because my instructions are not that you went to see Mrs Umbiasi only to inform her of the information, you went to inform her of the information that you had received and further you wanted to get her decision on what to do with that information?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Yes and Mr Mbambo would agree that if Mrs Umbiasi had said don't do the mission, you wouldn't have done it?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes.

MR WILLS: My understanding of your evidence just for the sake of clarity is that Mrs Umbiasi played an integral part in the planning of the operation in the sense that she made the arrangements for you to get to Bushbuck Ridge and to meet Mr Mkwena and the place to meet?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that obviously she knew full well what you were going to do when you got there?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes she knew.

MR WILLS: Just briefly, I want to discuss your relationship with Mr Mbambo.  You mentioned in your evidence that after Sipiwe's death, Mbambo became the leader.  Now my understanding is that that statement was made just in the context of this one operation, is that correct?

MONDLI NGXONGO: I was referring to the operation, the very same operation that he was my senior on that operation because he was there before me.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, I'm sorry I didn't get your question, something distracted me.  I didn't get your question.

MR WILLS: Yes I'll repeat it for you Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll appreciate it.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  My question was that the witness gave evidence to the effect that after Sipiwe's death Mbambo became his leader.

CHAIRPERSON: His commander.

MR WILLS: His commander yes and I was just asking whether this commander position was merely in the context of this one operation and not operations generally and I think the answer confirmed that.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear the answer either.

MR WILLS: Can you repeat the answer then?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Mbambo became my senior on that operation specifically on that operation I took instructions from him when we were on our way.