Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: Did you think you were operating above the law at the time?

WITNESS:   Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: In your manuscript you make various references to instances where you, as it were, covered your tracks or got rid of evidence, incriminating evidence.  Why was this done?

WITNESS:   Brigadier Ferry Zietsman, who was the Security Police Chief before General Johan Coetzee, had the saying of the 11th Commandment, "Don't get caught," so you always had to prepare the mission that you were on in such a way that tracks were not at all left for the CID - to force them kind of in finding out.  If they, with other words, stick to the theoretical - strictly to the theoretical way of investigating a case there wouldn't - they would never find any trail of any evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was regarded as the 11th Commandment, was it?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Never get caught.

WITNESS:   Never get caught.  If in fact you did get caught in the end it wasn't a very big problem, it was an embarrassment to the police, but they would always sort it out at a later stage in a way, and I've got examples of that, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: The dirty tricks, as far as it relates to the disappearance and the cross-border raids are concerned, what did these - what did they entail?

WITNESS:   Can you just come again.

MR JANSEN: What did these dirty tricks entail?

WITNESS:   Well, on illegal cross-border raids into neighbouring countries, breaking into the United Nation High Commission office for refugees, for instance as well, and stealing cars, blowing up houses, killing people, blowing up railways lines.  Locally in the country abducting so-called activists

MR JANSEN: /during the

MR JANSEN: during the time, getting rid of them.

MR JANSEN: But relating more to the disappearances of people who were detained.  How were their killings covered up?

WITNESS:   Well, it was easily done, because after officially being held they would be released, and abducted from the roadside then after everyone present has seen that they've been released in the charge office.  Held then illegally, then either shot and burned on a pyre of tyres and wood, or - I don't know how all the other cases were dealt with, but in my - whilst I was there, on three cases I think, people were dealt with by shooting them and burning them on a pyre of tyre and wood, and then give the impression that the person has fled into the neighbouring country, back to the African National Congress, or, if his body is left on the premises, implicate the ANC, the African National Congress, as the perpetrators of the specific murder.

MR JANSEN: How was this done?  How did you create the impression that the person went back to the ANC?

WITNESS:   For instance in the Sizwe Khondile case his car was taken through to Swaziland after his official release, and everyone has witnessed it, the uniformed policemen.  And his car was left in front of The Holiday Inn in Swaziland, where it was discovered a few months later.  In the case of Mr Mxenge, Griffiths Mxenge, his car was taken to a well known crossing point just to the south of Bothas Hoek Border Post, a well known crossing point in the security circles of ANC cadres, where the car was burned to give the impression that the ANC came into the country, pulled the mission, and then left for the border and burned the car before they went back into Swaziland.

MR JANSEN: /How was

MR JANSEN: How was a car - take any example - taken to Swaziland?

WITNESS:   Very easily.  Fitted with false numberplates, Mr Chairman, and then taken through, so on your record there won't be traces of the car going through the border post, but eventually you will put back the original numberplates, and when it's found it's found with the original numberplates.  But usually, on the Swazi side especially, records weren't very carefully kept.

MR JANSEN: And who would take the car over, and with what kind of documentation?

WITNESS:   The documentation was not at all necessary, and the big operators in Swaziland was Ermelo Security Branch, and at the stage specifically with the Sizwe Khondile murder his car was done by Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs, who was then branch commander at Ermelo, and who is now Colonel Christ Dieklifs, the Regional Commissioner of Intelligence of the Security Police in Mpumalanga, and Sergeant Chris Rorich, the explosives expert at Ermelo, who is now also a colonel in Middelburg in the new South African Security Police.

MR JANSEN: At some stage in your manuscript there's mention of use of false passports and the like.  Did you as Security Police have access to the facilities to falsify passports and the like?

WITNESS:   We could falsify anything at the police printing press, which was based on the fourth floor in Wagter Huis in Pretoria Street, the Security Police Headquarters, from licence discs for motor car, which we did in abundance every year.  Each Security Police car which operated had a false 100% duplicate of the Transvaal disc.  Previously the third party too, when that was still intact, and then you would just put your number on that licence disc, whichever one you wanted to use.  I, for

MR JANSEN: /instance,

MR JANSEN: instance, used my initials, DJC, and my age at the stage was 036T.  That was my car's numberplate, with a licence going with it, Mr Chairman.  So that wasn't a problem at all.

MR JANSEN: And did the people at the printing facilities ever question your requests or activities?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  It was usually done in conjunction with the relative section chief, and the press more specifically I think fell under - if you could just bear with me for a second.  Under Section D5, and at that time it was Lieutenant-Colonel J D Theron, who left the police as a brigadier, and Lieutenant J du T.  It must be something like du Toit.  They were at the police printing press, plus Sergeant - I can't remember the sergeant's name.  It will come to me just now.

MR JANSEN: You made extensive use in your activities of explosives and firearms, is that correct?

WITNESS:   I did, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Were there any infrastructure provided by the police as far as this is concerned?

WITNESS:   There was.  It was handled more specific by the technical division, which fell under Section D for Delta 3.  Later on in this specific 1980 directory I've got the name of Vaal du Toit, who was one of my officer's mates, Lieutenant Vaal du Toit, the one that was later implicated in the Motherwell bombing.  And they would give the - they would help you with time devices, specific time devices, according to the needs that you had.

MR JANSEN: There's various reference in your manuscript to people who were either explosive experts or explosive desks.  Could you just explain to the Committee how your

MR JANSEN: /typical

MR JANSEN: typical Security Police branch had access to explosive expertise?

WITNESS:   I would just mention in Security Police Headquarters the explosive desk fell under Section A4, and at the time it was Lieutenant-Colonel Frans van Eeden, who's left the police as a colonel I believe, and Captain P J Hattingh, Paul Hattingh, which at a stage was colonel.  I don't know whether he's still in the police.  They would be the experts at Security Police Headquarters.  On each branch one of the Security Police members would be sent on an explosives course for three months, basically to inspect the mine dumps in these areas, see to it that all the explosive dumps at the mines in the area - basically to see that all rules and regulations as far as explosives were concerned is complied with, and whenever explosives were transported the vehicles and the red flags were shown in the right manner.  So each branch had its own so-called explosive expert.