Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR DIAZ: Do you see there you say the following
"After pointing out his house Vusi took me back to Djamile's house by car"

MR HLOPE: That is true.

MR DIAZ: And thereafter you say"
"Vusi and other males I could not identify, drove to Kushana's house where they killed him"

MR HLOPE: Yes, that's what I was saying.

MR DIAZ: Do I understand you to mean that you remained behind and they went by car?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.

MR DIAZ: So you had not travelled to Kushana's house in the car, nor were present at the late Kuzwayo's house when he came to be shot dead?

MR HLOPE: Yes.  At the time that he was shot, I was not present but during the time of the pointing out I went there personally because I'm the one who knew Kushana's house.

MR DIAZ: Now if I may just repeat what my instructions are.  My instructions are that this paragraph of the affidavit is to that extent not true an untruth in that you were present at Kushana's house, Kushana Kuzwayo's house at the time the said Kuzwayo was killed.

MR HLOPE: What you were saying is not true, I deny it.  I was not present at Mr Kushana's place when he was killed but I was there during the time of the pointing out but during the time of his killing, I was not present.

MR DIAZ: You see Mr Hlope, it may be true that you were present at the time of the pointing out, we do not know about that but what we are saying is that you travelled in the car with a group of persons to the late Kuzwayo's house and actively participated in the killing of the late Kuzwayo.

MR HLOPE: I still deny it.

CHAIRPERSON: You will remember that he was found not guilty on this count.

MR DIAZ: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he in fact do when he participated, did he ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, my instructions are that the applicant was on the outside of the late Kuzwayo's house at the time persons entered the house and shot the late Kuzwayo and that when on of the brothers sorry, one of the sons of the late Kuzwayo walked out or the house he saw the applicant present there.
	And of course additionally that the applicant had travelled in the vehicle of the group of persons who arrived there, so that his affidavit, paragraph 32 to the extent that he was not in the vehicle that travelled is untrue, thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: What's your answer to that, that you've been seen outside the house at the time of the shooting while the others went into the house?

MR HLOPE: My answer is that I deny that, that's not true because that Kushana's son who saw me or who is alleged to have seen me, why was he not present at the trial to give evidence to the effect that I was present?
	He said they were drinking beer and the person who killed Mr Kushana was the person who had come to look for space for his child and then if that is the case, if he was there why didn't he give evidence against me to the effect that he saw me there.  
	I believe in reconciliation and I believe in speaking the truth, that is why I've come before this Commission to do a full disclosure, I don't want to lie about this.  There's no reason why I should be lying because I'm convicted already and the truth is coming out slowly but surely and whatever I'm saying is true. I was taking instructions from Mr Djamile and I did point out but I did not kill.

MR DIAZ: Yes Mr Hlope, it does appear that the truth is coming out slowly but may I just tell you that I have instructions that the son would testify to that effect in as much that he may have not testified at any trial prior to this, I'm not familiar with that but he's now prepared to testify, are you now prepared to change your mind knowing that?

MR HLOPE: I think his answer has already been given.

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is all that I have to deal with.   I have no further instructions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DIAZ

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I'll be very brief Mr Chairman.   It is correct that you and Djamile stood trial together?

MR HLOPE: Could you please repeat that?

MR BRINK: Is it correct that you and Mr Djamile were on trial together in the Supreme Court?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is true.

MR BRINK: And you were both convicted and sentenced?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Do you remember what sentence Mr Djamile received?
What was it?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do.   Life sentence.

MR BRINK: Was he subsequently released?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.  He was given indemnity and my application was turned down.

MR BRINK: He was given indemnity and your application was turned down?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR SHANGWENI: No, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANGWENI

ADV DE JAGER: Could I kindly - could you inform me, you were sentenced to 23 years imprisonment on the murder of Mr Kuzwayo, is that correct?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is true.

ADV DE JAGER: And what sentence what sentence did you received on the murder of Mr Mkhize?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: What sentence did you receive on the murder of Mr Mkhize?

MR HLOPE: 22 years and they were supposed to run concurrently.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your client appeal against his conviction and sentence?

MR SHANGWENI: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other witnesses you propose calling?

MR SHANGWENI: That's correct Mr Chairperson.  With your permission, I would like to call Mr Jabulani Hlope, the father to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlope, will you please stand and raise your right hand?

JABULANI BOBBY HLOPE: (sworn states)

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	State your full names and surname please.

MR HLOPE: Jabulani Bobby Hlope.

MR SHANGWENI: How are you related to the applicant, Msizi Jethro Hlope?

MR HLOPE: He's my son.

MR SHANGWENI: How old are you Mr Hlope?

MR HLOPE: I'm 70 years old.

MR SHANGWENI: Where do you live?

MR HLOPE: I stay in Claremont.

MR SHANGWENI: How long did you live there?

MR HLOPE: I've been staying there since 1956.

MR SHANGWENI: Do you know someone, Begezizwe Djamile?

MR HLOPE: Yes, he's my neighbour.

MR SHANGWENI: How did Msizi come to know MR Djamile?

MR HLOPE: I was renting a room at Mr Djamile's place and he had come to me.

MR SHANGWENI: According to paragraph 7 of Msizi's affidavit, he states that, if I may quote
"after the grenade attack on Djamile and his colleagues, Djamile was sworn at by a group of UDF supporters who were standing on top of a hill near Kwamajosi.  I was called by my father (meaning you) to Djamile's place.  My father took me to Djamile and he talked to me behind the house.  It was during the night".
Do you remember the incident?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do.

MR SHANGWENI: How many times did you call Msizi at the request of Djamile?

MR HLOPE: Quite several times, I don't remember how many times.

MR SHANGWENI: At that time, after the first meeting between Msizi and Djamile, did you suspect that Msizi was involved in any unlawful activities?

MR HLOPE: I did suspect at some stage but I didn't pay much attention to that.

MR SHANGWENI: If you were aware of those unlawful activities, why didn't you report Djamile and Msizi to the police?

MR HLOPE: I was scared of him.

MR SHANGWENI: How did you know that he was going to be against you?

MR HLOPE: I do know because there are some other people that I can cite as examples that he fought with and attacked after he had realised that they were not on his side.

MR SHANGWENI: Could you explain to the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: What was that question?

MR HLOPE: He killed Tulani Sebisi in my house.

MR SHANGWENI: Do you know why he killed Tulani Sebisi in your house?

MR HLOPE: He had killed him because they had an argument and he hit him with a knopkierrie and he fell down.  Djamile was later called to shoot him.