Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At the time he was already a Minister, although I don't remember what position he held.

MR STUART: You said that Prince Gideon Zulu said there must be a meeting to discuss the situation, did that meeting take place?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, the meeting took place.

MR STUART: What transpired?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: People who were present at the meeting, that I recall, were Bebebeyela, the Mayor, Mrs Mbuyasi, Mr Mkhize, Nkosi Mtaba and others from the leadership in eSikhawini.

MR STUART: What position did Mrs Mbuyasi have at that time?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: She was a member of the community of the IFP and a member of the Womens' Brigade of the IFP.

MR STUART: What was discussed at that meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Prince Gideon Zulu spoke first about Captain - I forget his surname, but he headed the Riot Unit in the ZP at eSikhawini.  I will remember his surname, it was Captain Masinga.
	He said you see this donkey, Captain Masinga must die because the situation is what it is in eSikhawini because of him.  The comrades are doing this, because of him.  At the time, he was looking at me directly.
	I then said, I hear you, I will try to fulfil your wish, but you must give me time to plan this properly.  I told him it is going to take a lot of time.  I subsequently tried to identify people that I could use from the Caprivi trainees that were in the area.
	At the time the Caprivi trainees were now members of the KwaZulu Police.  The person I thought of first, was Zena Mkhize.  I thought that I will contact him first, and see if we can discuss this because he was already a Policeman at the time.
	I tried to contact him, and I got hold of him.  I asked him if he was a Policeman or an Inkatha member.  He said he was both.  I told him that Masinga was causing a problem, Prince Gideon had ordered for him to be killed.
	When I told him this, I had already heard that Zena Mkhize was a close friend of Captain Masinga.  He said I should give him time to contact some people, but he wasn't sure whom to contact because most of the trainees were now drunkards.  I told him that I would also use some of my own guys.
	I asked him to put Zweli Ndlamini and Banyoni in the group that he would be organising.

MR STUART: Banyoni, are you referring to Hlongwane?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is right, Israel Hlongwane.  It was clear that he knew this people.  There was another meeting shortly thereafter, held at the eSikhawini hall.
	This matter was also discussed there, that there should be people that I should use to assist.  Prince Gideon then told me that there were boys from Johannesburg, sent by Themba Xhosa that would arrive in the area.  
	There was another meeting that was supposed to take place in a few days, in that hall - oh, sorry, the same meeting.  I then discovered that there were boys that were coming to come from Johannesburg that were supposed to help in the eSikhawsini area.

MR STUART: Did this group then form the basis for the eSikhawini hit squad?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stuart, when it is a convenient time we can take the lunch adjournment.

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  And were they also known as the eZipokhi?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that was the name that was given to them, because they used to operate in the night.

MR STUART: What does that mean?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It means people who work under the cover of darkness.

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that will be all for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will now adjourn for the lunch adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can just wait for all the applicants to get into the hall.   Thank you, Mr Stuart, you may continue.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (still under oath)

MR STUART: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Luthuli, you have spoken just before the long adjournment to the formation of the eSikhawini hit squad, and you will know from the applications of some of the other applicants in these proceedings, that they deal with many incidents that they were involved in.  You are familiar with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I am.

MR STUART: After the formation of that hit squad, who had control of their activities from day to day or from week to week?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The person who was the Commander was Captain Langeni but they were working under the eSikhawini leadership, where it was Mrs Mbuyasi, Prince Gideon Zulu and Bebebeyela who were in charge.

MR STUART: Were you involved on an ongoing basis with that grouping?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I was not.  I only had the responsibility of building the group up.

MR STUART: It came about that in 1991 you gave testimony to the Goldstone Commission, is that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR STUART: With whom did you plan what you would say at the Goldstone Commission?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The people I spoke to were M.Z. Khumalo, M. Armzemela who was the Secretary of the KwaZulu legislative assembly, Mr Mkhize, those are the names that I remember.

MR STUART: The Commission was investigating the allegations that appeared in the Weekly Mail as it was then called, about the Caprivi training?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR STUART: What did you decide about how you would respond to those allegations?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I decided that we should deny all these allegations.  We were not supposed to admit to anything.
	We were supposed to deny that there was ever training that was received by the trainees from the Eastern Block countries.  We were supposed only to mention that they were being trained as part of the Police Force.

MR STUART: Was that true that they were trained only to be part of the Police Force?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, it was not.

MR STUART: Who encouraged you to take this stance in the Goldstone hearings?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The IFP because Mr M.Z. Khumalo was the one who was very close to the IFP President.

MR STUART: You are of course aware that what you said there was not the truth, why did you not tell the truth before Goldstone?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.  What I said at the Goldstone Commission were blatant lies.  It was clearly indicated that we should tell all sorts of lies so that nobody should know the truth as to what was happening and therefore I still remember also that they also asked me at the Goldstone Commission, whether I knew Yamile and I said no, I have never seen him at all.

MR STUART: You have subsequently come in this application and indeed before this application, to tell a different story about what happened in Caprivi and subsequently.  Why is it that at that time, of the Goldstone Commission, you could not tell the proper story?

UNKNOWN: We had a problem, we did not get any interpretation of what the witness has just said.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.  I could not have divulged the truth because I would have been killed.

MR STUART: Sorry, where were you living at that time?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was living at Ulundi.

MR STUART: And who were you scared would kill you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The IFP.

MR STUART: Subsequent to that time, some members of eSikhawini hit squad were arrested, are you familiar with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: How did it come about that they were arrested?