Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   But you met him at Derby-Lewis's home regularly before the 10th of April 1993 where these discussions about the undeclared war and saving Christianity and saving South Africa were loudly and clearly declared?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Not correct, Mr Chairman, you stated there that I met him regularly, that is not true, I met him on a few occasions and they were not shortly after one another, and at such a nature, it is usually a jolly occasion and to discuss such serious matters there was not usually done.  That may have been done in corners, but that is certainly not the nature or the reason for the braaivleis.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did Mr Derby-Lewis ever express to you how he thought the country could be saved?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: We had several discussions, many of which were not in private, I don't recall exactly what Mr Derby-Lewis told me, perhaps if you ask in more detail, I could confirm.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, we must rely on you and Mr Derby-Lewis on that for the time being, but did you have private discussions with Mr Derby-Lewis as to how the problems of the country could be solved?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Let me explain this way, at that time the main focus was still on elections and fighting an election, and that is where most of my efforts went.   If we had other discussions, I cannot remember at this point.   It is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let me see if I understand you correctly, that the overall purpose of your discussions was during 1992 and the first third of '93 was how the country could be saved by elections?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That would certainly have been on the agenda, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was Mr Derby-Lewis enthusiastic about this, as to how the country could be saved by election?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Derby-Lewis is a very positive person, I'm sure he was always enthusiastic, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: About saving the country by participating in elections?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: You are taking me over a long period of time.  Earlier on, most certainly there was that chance.   Later on, it became obvious to even those who cannot see that an election was no longer an option, and at some point in between, discussions must have taken place, I cannot remember specifically between myself and Mr Derby-Lewis, but discussions of that nature were widely held amongst our entire fraternity.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who, give us a few names of your entire fraternity, let's have this fraternity make itself known that so proudly wanted to save the country, give us a few names please?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That discussed it with me in private?

GEORGE BIZOS: No.   Give us the names of the people that you say were discussing the fact that elections were no longer an option and that anyone who had eyes to see knew that elections were no longer an option, give us a few names of those people?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Certainly.   Let's start with Dr Andries Treurnicht.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, in public meetings?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, at public meetings.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we have a record of what Dr Treurnicht said.  Talk to us about the braaivleis talk?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: The braaivleis talk went about sunny skies and Chevrolet, Mr Chairman, I can't remember discussing other issues there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.   So you're not, when you spoke about fraternity, did you mean Dr Treurnicht and who else?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: We can look at other leadership figures who in the public ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: No, fraternity, fraternity means brothers, the people that you meet regularly.   You use the word fraternity, you use English particularly carefully and well, Mr Clark, who was in this fraternity that thought that elections were no longer an answer?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Friends of mine whom I regularly met with, is that what you're saying?

GEORGE BIZOS: Who are your friends that you regularly met with that thought that elections were no longer an answer?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Do you wish me to list an entire list of all my friends so that they can be victimised as I was victimised after I was arrested, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you not prepared to give us the names of the people who were saying in March/April 1993, at braaivleises held at Mr Derby-Lewis's home or elsewhere, that election holding is no longer an answer to the country's problems?   Please give us the names of the fraternity that was saying that?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, does Mr Bizos want to know who went to braaivleises in April 1994?    He mentioned specifically a specific month?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I did specify the period and the intervention is unnecessary.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.   I was listening to the translation of her remark, so I can't pay attention, I didn't pay attention to what you were saying.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   I'll repeat the question, which I submit there may be (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   You're not required to answer ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: In March/April ...(intervention).
(inaudible)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

INTERPRETER: Mike please.

CHAIRPERSON: ...use the word fraternity, you and - who talked about the fact that elections were no longer an option?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos would like to know whether you are prepared to disclose what that fraternity was?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Let me first define my fraternity, as such, was not only the people who attended Mr Derby-Lewis's braaivleis, I have a far wider circle of friends than that.  I do not feel that disclosing the names of every single one of my friend with whom I may have discussed this, and there are a great many, would serve any positive purpose.   I can tell you this, that there's a possibility I discussed it with Mr Derby-Lewis, Mr Walus I do not know well, and I am quite sure I did not discuss it with him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you discuss it with Mrs Derby-Lewis?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: It is possible, though I cannot remember a specific instance.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, the relationship between you and Mr Derby-Lewis and Mrs Derby-Lewis, politically speaking, was a very close one?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I would agree to that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You also had a common objective, you wanted to save South Africa?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Naturally, sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: You have already told us that there were too many people that were prepared to do nothing, and that action was called for?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is correct, sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Elections were no longer the way forward?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Can I put it this way, it's a matter of changing priorities.   Elections were showing less and less chance of promise to redeem the matter, and therefore alternatives had to be looked at, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.   Just let's confine the matter amongst the three of you, Mr Derby-Lewis, Mrs Derby-Lewis and yourself, once there was this consensus amongst the three of you, what alternatives to elections were discussed by the three of you?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I have a wide circle of friends.   Mr Derby-Lewis, my help to him went primarily around the elections.   Whatever other businesses I may have, I wouldn't have even considered really involving Mr Derby-Lewis, he's too busy.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you hear the question, sir?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I discussed, I cannot remember discussing things of that nature with them, though it is possible, but certainly not any sort of planning, though it is possible that it was discussed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, it's possible that the three of you discussed what?   Remember what the question was, there was consensus among you that elections are no good, you want to save the country, other steps have to be taken, whilst the three of you were there at their home, what other options did you discuss?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I cannot remember specifically discussing another option with them.   Most of what I discussed there went around the elections, that was why I was there.