Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: We were there for about 15 minutes, I'm guessing, before the shooting, before they were shot dead.

MR VAN DER BERG: Do you perhaps know whether the three AWB members were disarmed or not?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Ja, there was - the man who appeared to be dead, there was no weapon in his holster and I assume because the police were guarding these men, that they'd been disarmed.  I certainly wouldn't have approached any of them if I'd thought they were armed and dangerous or you know, active at that point because they'd been actively threatening everyone in their path all day.  Not those particular individuals but those groups of men on the bakkies.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr de Ionne, do you perhaps know who was the first of the AWB members who was shot?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: I think it was a man by the name of Fourie from Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: You say the first person to be shot by the policeman who shot the three of them?

MR VAN DER BERG: Indeed so, Mr Chairman.

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: You mean the final incident where the two remaining men were killed?  I just recall seeing Wolfaardt shot in the back of the head and the man moved to my right, the back of the vehicle, and fired into the other two bodies, Uys and the other body.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr de Ionne, can you perhaps recall whether the applicant today, Mr Menyatsoe, interviewed any of the AWB members?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: I don't recall anyone except journalists speaking to those guys on the ground.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it pleases the Committee, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Berg.
	Mr Hendricks, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR HENDRICKSE: Yes, I do, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Tell me, Mr de Ionne, the person that you spoke to, that you put your hand on his shoulder and calmed him, he's not the same person that actually shot the three AWB members, is that correct?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: I don't think so, that is why I made the point about him wearing the heavy hard helmet.  He was dressed differently from the other man.

MR HENDRICKSE: You say that that person was abusive towards the three AWB men?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Ja, I wrote at the time, notes I'd taken at the time and it was to the effect that: "Why do you come here"?  And he called them "dogs", and said: "Why do you shoot women, I could shoot you", that kind of thing.

MR HENDRICKSE: That person must have been very angry?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Yes.

MR HENDRICKSE: You also made mention of groups of people, of men on bakkies, who are you referring to?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: These were the - they were groups of men who appeared in Mmbatho.  We heard that they had arrived early Friday morning - we heard early on Friday morning that they had arrived.  We went to the airfield where they were and we were threatened and told to leave at gunpoint.
	We saw convoys of vehicles with men, some in the khaki uniforms and others in plain clothes with weapons and they repeatedly threatened journalists who approached them.  We saw bodies in the street in Mafikeng and we were told they had been shot by people in these groups of bakkies.

MR HENDRICKSE: Mr Chairman, just a second.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HENDRICKSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terreblanche, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Yes, please, Mr Chairperson.
	I would just like to know, you said that one of the three men seemed as if he was dead.  How did he appear, didn't he move or the colour of his skin, why did you think that he was dead?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: He was lying parallel to the vehicle, with his head towards the back of it.  He was very still.  There was a growing pool of blood under his body and in the entire time we were there I saw no movement.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Would you say that any person would immediately realise that this person is dead or very close to dead?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Yes.

MR TERREBLANCHE: No further questions, thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TERREBLANCHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Peter, since your arrival on the scene up till the end, how would you describe the situation?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: It seemed extremely tense.  The culmination of a lot of drama in Mafikeng and Mmbatho and Montshiwe that morning, but the police seemed to have it under control.

UNKNOWN: There has been word to the effect that it was a war situation, would you ascribe to that?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: No further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van der Berg, do you have any re-examination?

MR VAN DER BERG: Just a second, Mr Chairman, please.
	Mr de Ionne, can you still recall, whilst the three AWB members were lying on the ground were there still shots fired?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: There were no shots fired until the man appeared and shot the two remaining people.

MR VAN DER BERG: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr de Ionne, did you notice any movement by the AWB members while they were ...[inaudible] or were they keeping still?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: The man Wolfaardt who was lying face down, was quite agitated when he was speaking but there was no untoward movement and Uys, as I said, appeared to be distressed and just leaning back up against the wheel of the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

ADV SIGODI: No, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one or two, Mr Chairman.
	Sir, when you arrived at the scene, that is where the Mercedes was and the people lying outside, you came, you didn't see the Mercedes whilst it was still in motion, you don't know what happened prior to it coming to a stop, do you?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: No, we were told by people who were there but we didn't see what happened before it was stopped, no.

ADV MOTATA: Now you say you would ascribe to what Advocate Mpshe has described as a war situation, was it the entire Mmbatho area where you could ascribe that to?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: It was sporadic but from the time these people in bakkies arrived, the whole atmosphere of the place changed.  What had previously been sort of casual, well not casual but rioting and unrest around the university and other places, but the whole place had become very dangerous once these chaps were driving around.

ADV MOTATA: Did you notice these people when they were driving around and if so, what were they doing?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: On several occasion we tried to approach these small convoys and at least follow them to see what they were doing, but any time we got within sight of them we'd have weapons pointed at us and we'd be threatened.  And in fact a vehicle of colleagues that was travelling nearby at the intersection near the Mmbatho Sun actually had a, I think shotgun pointed in through the passenger window at the occupants.  So we took great care.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Ionne, approximately how far was the person who shot the deceased standing from them when the shots were fired, can you give an indication?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: No more that a couple of metres.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person who fired the shots, did he say anything at all that you heard, at the time of firing or immediately before?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: I don't recall, the first I saw was, I think I saw Wolfaardt being shot, the bullet entering his head and that was it.  That was the first indication there was.