Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then you changed your evidence to say in fact you heard twice, the gunshots were twice in fact, not one gunshot, but twice.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That's the second time.  The first time that's when I said I heard this gunshot once.  The second time now I heard the gunshot twice was when I also got out of the house and went to Magwaza's place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What you are saying in fact Mr ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: May the speaker be audible.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What you are saying in fact Mr Sithole, is that whilst you were still in your shack and you had changed your clothing you first hear a gunshot, in fact twice you had heard a gunshot.  Are you now saying thereafter you heard some more gunshots?

MR LAX: No, he's saying that he heard one shot on the first occasion, and then later, just before he went down to Magwaza's place, after he changed his clothes again, he heard another, he heard two shots.  That is the way I understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: So he heard three shots in all, but on two different occasions.  On one occasion, the last one, he heard two shots, just prior to going to Mr Magwaza's house, and on the first occasion one shot.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm indebted to the Committee for clarifying that.
	That is correct Mr Sithole, what the Chairperson and Mr Lax the Member of Committee has been saying?  Is that what you heard?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now, when you made this extensive affidavit as to what happened on that particular day, we didn't hear you talking about any gunshots while you were in your shack.  There is nothing referred to about the gunshots while you were in your shack.

MR SITHOLE: This gunshot I said I heard it after Zwane and Mpongosi had left, after I told them to go to Magwaza.  I heard this gunshot.  And as I was going out I saw the ANC people approaching my shack and I went quickly back inside and closed the door and sat in the house, in the shack that is.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I hear what you're saying.  I'm saying Mr Sithole, in your affidavit you didn't refer to all these issues.

MR SITHOLE: I'm tell you about what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Cachalia wants to ask you is why didn't you mention that you heard gunshots prior to you being at, or in the vicinity of Mr Magwaza's house.  Why didn't you mention that in your affidavit?

MR SITHOLE: I know I did make mention in fact to this gunshot, maybe the person did not hear.  I heard this gunshot as soon as Mpongosi and Zwane left and I opened the door I saw the ANC group approaching and I quickly closed the door, closed myself inside.  Maybe he did not hear that as I said it, but I did say that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole I did hear what you said, and I am saying that you did say so in your evidence, I'm saying but I don't wish to prolong this issue, you have not mentioned it in your affidavit ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What he said is that he told the person who took the affidavit but it hasn't been written down.

AZHAR CACHALIA: The affidavit was read to you Mr Sithole, before you signed it.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: The affidavit was read to me.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And when it was read to you you realised that this matter you raised about the gunshot was not in the affidavit?

MR SITHOLE: I discovered that, but I did not know how to rectify that error because it was after that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You realised it but you didn't know how to rectify the affidavit.  Is that what you're telling me sir?  I'm sorry, I just didn't hear.  I'm sorry to repeat the question.  Are you saying that you realised that they had put that in but you did not know how to rectify that error?

MR SITHOLE: I did not know how to rectify that mistake.

ADV SIGODI: But Ms Interpreter if you can ...(intervention)

MR SITHOLE: Because I was about to appear.  I was just about to appear.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You were about to appear where sir?

MR SITHOLE: Appear right in this Commission.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Oh, I see.  Sorry, I don't know what you're saying. ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Cachalia.  Mr Sithole you were asked whether at the time you signed this affidavit it was read back to you, and you said yes.  That is on the day it was signed which is not clear from this affidavit.  It looks like the 30th of August 1997.  Is that the date that this affidavit was signed?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it was read to me, and I also mentioned that there is something that I don't understand that might have been omitted, and yesterday we got here and I went back I did nothing to that effect.  Even today I did nothing because I was about to appear.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Mr Lax.  Mr Sithole, we're just wasting a lot of unnecessary time, I just want to put it to you quite clearly that you, the affidavit was read back to you.  Is that correct?  Was the affidavit read back to you sir?

MR SITHOLE: Yes it was read back to me and you realised that what you had told them about the gunshots while you were in the shack was not in the affidavit?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I realised.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you did not tell your attorney or whoever was dealing with you at that time that this particular fact was omitted?

MR SITHOLE: I said that, and also the police were hurrying to close, where we were.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, are you now saying that because there was an urgency and a hurry it wasn't done, and that's why you didn't do it?

MR SITHOLE: They said we will furnish the rest of the information in front of the Commission, whatever was omitted will be furnished in front of the Commission.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Let me leave that and start on the next issue.  You said, Mr Sithole, that you were in your shack when you saw this ANC people running towards you, you went inside.  Is that correct?  You hid yourself back in the shack.

MR SITHOLE: I was inside my shack and as I was going out after I heard the gunshot I saw the ANC people approaching, coming, running to my shack, having spears, and I went back quickly inside and closed the shack door.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And they peeped through your shack and could not see you inside.

MR SITHOLE: No they did not see me.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And then you came out again.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And they were still there outside your shack.

MR SITHOLE: When I got out I thought they had gone already because I did not see any of them from the shack, but as soon as I was outside they emerged around from behind the shack and I stood and raised up my hands and said, I said to them, what's the matter, what's happening.  Asked them rather.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You didn't ask them that, not in, that's not what you said in your evidence-in-chief.  Can you remember what you said in your evidence-in-chief, sir?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I remember.  I said Zwane arrived, came together with Mpongosi, and told them ...(intervention)

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm sorry I don't want to interrupt you.  We're not talking.  Zwane and company had left, the ANC people with the spears charged and you hid in your shack.  Is that correct?  After Zwane had left, you came out of your shack and you saw these people charging towards you and you went back into the shack.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you were hiding in there.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And they couldn't see you in there.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you then came out again and they were there.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you say you remember what you had said to them.  I am saying that what you said in your evidence is not what you said now.  Do you remember what you said in your evidence-in-chief, sir?