Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

MS MTSINGWA: I never tried to find out what happened, I just heard that they got killed because the police thought that they were - that they were going to kill the police.  But now I didn't ask because I had too much misery at that time, because of the illness of my grandchild.  So I didn't really have all - all the power or the energy to go and find out because I was already drained.

DR BORAINE: Yes I understand.  You mentioned that there were guns placed on the bodies of the young men who were killed.  Just please tell me a little bit more about that, whose guns were they?

MS MTSINGWA: Like I said that we saw this - this thing on TV and on papers.  I don't know if I saw this correctly but we saw this - these guns were on their bodies.  I don't know what happened, I don't know what happened right from the start.  I don't know where were they, when they were shot.  But I only saw that the guns were on their bodies, I saw this on TV and in the papers.
 But now I couldn't actually identify my own son, amongst the bodies.  Because I didn't know at that time that my son was one of the seven but it was later that I - that I realised that he was one of the Guguletu 7.

DR BORAINE: Okay, just one last question about that, were the guns on top of the bodies, were they on the side of the bodies, were they in the hands of the bodies?  Where were the guns?

MS MTSINGWA: Please forgive me here because I am not sure about this, but it looks like these guns were just put here on their chest, the guns were not on their hands the guns were on the chests - on their chests.  Now these were pictures from the - from the pictures please forgive me if this is not so.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, you being very helpful all I want to know is what you think and what you saw so that's fine.  Did the police come and tell you about what had happened to your son?

MS MTSINGWA: There was not even one policeman who came to inform me about this.  We were fetched to Town to give statements just to tell what happened.  Just like as Ms Ngewu has said, we were picked up myself and Ms Ngewu and Ms Mia but I didn't - I didn't say anything.
 We were sent to the lawyers that's actually also where we vented everything through this lawyer.  From there we went to Wynberg, that's where 
the trials were.  What I saw at Wynberg - Afrikaans was spoken a lot and there were no interpreters and we could hear here and there we didn't really understand what was happening because of the Afrikaans that was used at the time.
 We didn't even know what were the people discussing all these - we had no interpreters.  We didn't have interpreters to know what is going on here, to help us with this.  And at the end our lawyer told us that nobody can accuse the police because they were defending themselves from these children.

DR BORAINE: I see so to this day you don't really know how your son was killed and why.

MS MTSINGWA: There is no other way, it's only what I am telling you now.  Only that he was one of the seven and I saw this also in the media, even our lawyer showed this only in the papers.  Now I could also see him that it was him.  But now we couldn't - we didn't see the guns now in these pictures that the lawyers showed us and I also could identify the clothes that he wore then I could see that okay it was him.  But I didn't really know why he was shot.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, is there anything else you would like to add that we haven't covered.

MS MTSINGWA: If there is anything that I have forgotten I would just ask one of the authorities to take it up.  I will tell him or her then and then he'll take it up.  I might leave something out.

DR BORAINE: [indistinct] are there any way in which you think the Commission can be of help to you?

MS MTSINGWA: Could you please help me with something, because my son was going to work for me.  He was going to support me, he was going to work and I was going to gain from him, but my children are not violent, they were obeying whatever I was telling him to - they were obedient children.  But the ones that I have now they are still helping me here and there because even now it's not much because they have their own houses to maintain and I would also like to have a tombstone for him to honour him.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, there may be other questions that my fellow Commissioners would like to put to you.  But if you could rest a while because I'd like to ask Ms Mia to tell her story as well and thank you very much indeed.  I know you are not feeling well, but you managed very well indeed, 
thank you.

DR BORAINE: Perhaps if you could just move the microphone.   Hello Ms Mia, I - can you hear me all right through the earphones?

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: Yes I can hear clearly.

DR BORAINE: Let's start where we started with your two friends.  Tell us a bit about yourself where you come from.  About your family - about your background before we talk about your son.

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: I am Eunice Mia Thembiso.  I have five children.

DR BORAINE: Sorry to interrupt you - could you sit a little closer to the mike, that's - we all want to hear your story, thank you, you may continue.