Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It could be.  Sometimes I saw them all by myself, sometimes Liebenberg went with and if they said they were involved in the planning, it could have been.  After this incident I would have, at least, shown him to one of  the askaris or told the information to them.

MS PATEL: All right.  Did Mr Mbelo, if you can recall, give a specific address of where the askaris should go or was it a specific area and, if so, which area?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I think he did give an address, referred to a specific region and we could ask the security branch also the areas were not clearly identified.  He had to give them an address.

MS PATEL: Would the askaris have known specifically which person to go and see?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If we have sent him to a specific person, like what happened in Mbelo's case, we would send him to a specific person, because that incident which he infiltrated, we first kept him in a prison cell with a possible suspect and, perhaps, it happened there.  There was a reason for a certain activities.

MS PATEL: All right.  After the askaris had ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on.  What happened to this suspect who was in the cell with Mbelo?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I do not know.  I think it was a suspect from the previous security branch which was kept in prison.  I do  not have any reason or background for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely you would want to know, because this suspect was kept with your Constable Mbelo.  If he had been released the next day or something, he might have arrived at the house and said that this man was in prison with me or something that could have caused great problems?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I am speaking under correction, I do not know whether it was because of any security legislation, whether it was solitary confinement or whether was it because of security branch positions.  I have to clear that out with Liebenberg.  I am going to find out in any case.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS PATEL: Thank you.
	After the askaris had been sent in, after how long did you have your first briefing session with them?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot remember a specific date or time.  It might be three days, five days or a week.  It was never longer than one week.  We made an appointment, say, for example, Friday afternoon, two o' clock, you would make an appointment for Saturday afternoon at two o' clock too.  If something went on the Friday, they would come on the Sunday.  All my reports regarding this specific incident, I have destroyed that.  When the farm was disbanded and with the Goldstone Investigation I destroyed all my documentation.

MS PATEL: The askaris when they went in, did they go in with the arms that you had mentioned in your application or did they come back at some later stage for them?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It may be that they went in with the weapons, but the situation was of such a nature that I believe that they would have gone in or I would have sent them in with the weapons and with the Kombi.  There were false panels in the Kombi and we could have hidden the weapons there and kept them safe.  So, that could have been so.

MS PATEL: All right.  If Mr Mbane says that he did not go in initially with two AK47's, that he went in armed with a Makarov and that Mr Maluleka went in with a Tokarev, what would your comment be on that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I did not provide them with a Makarov.  It may be that they only went in with a Tokarev.  He might be referring to a case where he was, he infiltrated a month before I did it, it might have been with the previous people that dealt with him.  I cannot say with clarity.

MS PATEL: Can you recall during which month they infiltrated?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: They came down together with me during the first week in February.  I believe it was just after the first of the month, I was on a course in January, but I cannot say exactly when, if it was before this.

MS PATEL: And you are certain that you did not come with them when they first came down?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, definitely not.  In 1981 with the Koeberg Sabotage case I was in Cape Town and that was the last time.  I was not working here during 1985.

MS PATEL: Mr Mbane says that he came down with you and that he was briefed with you from the initial stage before the infiltration took place.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I will have to go and see if he came, if he was with the previous group, because I hear that he says that Mamasela was together with him.  I have no knowledge of this, I cannot vouch for the previous groups.  He was not there with me.  He was there with me in February.  Whether it was the first or the second infiltration, if we had the records we could look at this, because we had a register in Vlakplaas for every month when you were booked out and together with whom you were booked out, which vehicles were involved and weapons involved.  Unfortunately, that register no longer exists, so I cannot comment on this.

MS PATEL: He also just, to finish off the point, he says that he came down in January with you, sometime in January, cannot recall exactly when.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Let me say that if I was on a course in January, these courses would not have started before the third and it was a three week course and it might have been that, we might have been here the 28th, the 30th or the second or the third of February.  It is debatable.  I do not have a record in front of me to say whether it was the end of February or whenever, but it should have been very late in January.

MS PATEL: Okay.  What was your first report from them regarding the group that they infiltrated?  What specific information did they give?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot recall exactly, but what would have happened is that they would have told me that the people are here, they are trained people, dangerous people and that they are responsible for certain deeds, but the first was that they were very antagonistic towards the askaris.  These people did not just accept you.  The freedom front or freedom fighters also worked with structures and you had to launch a very good infiltration to get in.  They did not just accept someone from the street.  They had their methods and it would not be just a case of walking in and saying we are here with you in the struggle.

MS PATEL: Do you bear knowledge of the kinds of methods the, that people within those groups would have used in order to ascertain whether the people who are entering the group are, indeed, legitimate?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, we did great deal of research at Vlakplaas regarding the liberation fighters modus operandi.  That is why we had the Research Desk and as we continued with the investigations and in interviews with freedom fighters we realised that they did not just accept people.  They first found out where you came from and your address and they would have enquired about you and you would have had to know what you were doing to convince them.  They would even trace you back as far as foreign countries.  They would have said, no, you did not come for Botswana, because no freedom fighters were on their way from Botswana to the Cape.  They were very good, we can give them credit for that.

MS PATEL: Can you, perhaps, try to be a little bit more specific.  Let us assume Jimmy went in, what would be the first thing that he would have to do?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: He had to make contact with the possible freedom fighters or addresses which were given to him and say that he had been sent from Lesotho and that he was here to take over from a person who was eliminated in Lesotho and to continue and then to get into that group.  That would have been his first task, was to say that he was waiting for his supplies, he was here to get the political climate correctly.  He had to speak like a freedom fighter that had been trained in, abroad.

MS PATEL: To your knowledge, was Mr Mbane trained in Lesotho at some stage?