Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: My Lord, I don't want to believe that I will be here if I don't believe on the instructions of the applicants, they do not have a concrete case.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's hear it then.

MR MGXAJI: Mr Guleni, you say you first heard of this alleged attack during the day, my question is from whom did you hear that?  My question is from whom did you hear that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Mzwandile was the first person.

MR MGXAJI: And that is during the day?  Now, in your statement you say immediately after the sundown, you were informed by Mzwandile, do you still say so?

CHAIRPERSON: What was he informed by Mzwandile after sundown?

MR MGXAJI: From the statement he says he has seen Mapipa and his Unit driving out of town.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that is quite different from being informed that Mapipa is going to attack us.

MR MGXAJI: On the first paragraph it reads
"... on the following day ( if I start the sentence in the middle) we were informed that Mapipa's Unit has arrived in Port St Johns town to attack us."
	And I asked that they were to be attacked by this alleged Unit, from whom did he get it, he says during the day, I first heard it and then a little bit in the afternoon, I am not too sure.  My follow up question was, let's begin with during the day, from whom did you hear it.

CHAIRPERSON: He says Mzwandile.

MR MGXAJI: During the day you heard it from Mzwandile and you say even though you are not able to tell the time, but it was in the afternoon.  Let me first ask, when you heard it from Mzwandile during the day, where were you?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I was in town.

MR MGXAJI: In the afternoon, from whom did you hear it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I said in the afternoon, Ndumiso told me that, I was hearing it for the second time.

MR MGXAJI: Estimably at what time in the afternoon?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I cannot be sure, but it was well in the afternoon.

MR MGXAJI: You also are not sure when you were told by Mzwandile during the day, at what time was it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Could I perhaps explain this.

MR MGXAJI: Yes.

FUNDISELE GULENI: I heard from Mzwandile that we might be attacked, and Ndumiso confirmed that.  When he came back from Lusikisiki, late in the afternoon, he said this group has already arrived in Port St Johns.  In the afternoon he had already come to confirm, he called them the Third Force, that it had arrived.  Whilst he was still explaining to us, that group came.  He was just stressing what he had already highlighted before, or informed us about before.

MR MGXAJI: During the day, was it before one when Mzwandile told you that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I am not sure whether it was before one o'clock or not.

MR MGXAJI: You now say Mzwandile further informed you that the Third Force had arrived, did I get you well, for the second time now?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that was the term that he used, that they have arrived, that is what he used to call them, Third Force.

MR MGXAJI: That was ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think the issue here is, in your statement you say Mapipa's Unit you were informed had arrived at Port St Johns, and you now say that he told you that the Third Force have arrived.  Deal with that.

FUNDISELE GULENI: The Third Force and the Unit, it is one and the same thing, that was the way that he expressed himself, or that is the way he referred to that Unit that had just arrived in Port St Johns, that was a Third Force Unit that he was referring to.

MR MGXAJI: On this certain occasion, you met Mzwandile.  Do you recall at what time was it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I cannot recall the time, but it was after sunset.

MR MGXAJI: Did he tell you where is this Third Force?

FUNDISELE GULENI: He did not say exactly where it was, but he just said they have already entered Port St Johns and whilst he was still trying to explain that, they appeared.

MR MGXAJI: You also did not ask from whom he got what he told you?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat your question.

MR MGXAJI: You also did not ask Mzwandile what he was telling you?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask Mzwandile where he got to know or who told him this?  How did he come to know that this Unit has arrived?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I do not remember asking him, because the fact that this car appeared, disturbed us, so I did not have time to ask him.

MR MGXAJI: Let us pause there and put to you this question.  Was Mr Mapipa known to you before Mzwandile's report to you on that day?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I knew him before.

MR MGXAJI: Was it known to you what car was he using?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I knew.

MR MGXAJI: In your statement you say Mzwandile informed you that he had seen Mr Mapipa and his Unit driving out of town.

FUNDISELE GULENI: Please repeat your question.

MR MGXAJI: In your statement on page 36 in its typed form, you say Mzwandile informed you that he had seen Mr Mapipa and his Unit driving out of town, right?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: And at the time that he was telling you that, Mr Mapipa's van was known to you, right?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I knew his van, I would easily identify it.

MR MGXAJI: With whom were you when Mzwandile gave this report to you?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I was with Ndumiso and another comrade from Etombo, Munla, a comrade from Etombo.

MR MGXAJI: Yes, and who else?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The people who were present there, but they were at the town hall, was Mr Mfeketho and Vusumsi, but they were not actually in our company, but they were in the vicinity of the town hall.

MR MGXAJI: My question is, at the time Mzwandile gave this report that he had just seen Mr Mapipa's van and his Unit driving out of town, with whom were you?  You have counted Ndumiso, Munla, who else were you with?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was only that two.

MR MGXAJI: You say you could not wait any moment and you jumped on to Mzwandile's 4x4 vehicle.  If you get out of Port St Johns, did Mzwandile tell which direction this Mapipa van was taking?

FUNDISELE GULENI: He never told us, he was driving, he just followed.

MR MGXAJI: He followed the van to the direction it had gone.  Which direction was that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was going towards Etombo.

MR MGXAJI: You also do know that Mr Mapipa resides at Nzimbeni and the way to Nzimbeni takes the Etombo/Umtata direction, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: When you jumped into Mzwandile's 4x4 van, you were in town, correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: And you were not under attack at that time, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: And therefore there was nothing prompting you to pursue Mr Mapipa's van for you were not under attack?  That is also correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I would not say so.

MR MGXAJI: Tell us what could you see?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The thing that prompted us to follow was that we were told that there is Mapipa and his Unit leaving.

MR MGXAJI: Even in its literal translation, leaving means getting away from you?  My question is at that time, you were not under attack, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: When Mzwandile was driving behind this Mr Mapipa's van, what were you seeking to achieve?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Our intention was to attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: What political objective did you seek to achieve by attacking them?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We were trying to counter the fact that they were going to attack us, thus we decided to launch the attack first.

MR MGXAJI: If a child comes to me and says Mr Mgxaji, a snake next to the river is going to attack you, as a grown up person, should I believe that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It depends really on the circumstances prevailing at that time.

MR MGXAJI: Be reasonable standards, a reasonable man is not expected to believe that, will you agree?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I do not want to say he would not believe or not.  One would believe, one wouldn't.  It entirely depends on the situation.