Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: No, it was, he told me quite directly that his "opdrag" is to solve all problems under him and not refer it.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you try on your own to bring this to ...[intervention]

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Carry on please.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: I've tried on several occasions.  Some of these concerns, when I was removed from the office of Managing Director initially in 1986, General Knobel and I had a long discussion one Saturday in my offices at Roodeplaat about the management change.  You've asked me previously Mr Chairman, this management change.
 And we agreed upon the management, that the management should be done by someone with some insight in the science and I've said if they are not happy with me doing it, get another person but suitably qualified, better than me, to do the job, that is what is needed but then they brought Dr Swanepoel.  And it is not his fault, it is not his mistake.  Whoever did that I cannot vouch for, it just happened.
 So I told Dr Swanepoel: "Look I don't think that you are at fault or whatever but it is unfair of the people in charge to expect of you to manage this facility in an effective way".

MR CHASKALSON: I'd just like to clarify something with you.  You're talking about this conversation taking place somewhere around 1986.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: At that stage, General Knobel was not the Surgeon-General, can you clarify his involvement in the project?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Okay.  General Knobel and I were acquainted before we started with the project.  General Knobel was the Head of Department, he was Professor and Head of Department in the University of Pretoria.  In fact we were neighbours, his facility and mine were just on the opposite sides of the parking lot.  And I regarded him very highly as a person and as a scientific person etc.   Now General Knobel then moved from that position to being in the Army and he became the 2I/C ..[indistinct], and it was known that he was to succeed General Niewoudt.  From his position as scientifically based he was involved in the project from the early days, I can't remember exactly when but from early meetings he was present in the project.
 In 1986 when it became known to me that the management was unhappy with my management and the sponsors as we called them, I've seen General Knobel and I've also seen General Niewoudt at that time and we discussed this change in management and what it implied.   They couldn't satisfy me on any point as to exactly why precisely they want to remove me.  They had some stories like: "We want to make you available to have more time to run the anti-fertility project" because I was specialising also in anti-fertility, that was my keen interest.  And I said: "But I cannot be involved in running the anti-fertility project because Dr Schalk van Rensburg and Professor Borman is doing that and what will I be doing there"?  And then they said: "You must do this and that" and on the other hand - and I'm going back a little bit now but this sets the scenes for a couple of years later, in '86 General Nieuwoudt said to me: "Listen Daan" and we had a discussion and I said to him: "General, if you and I don't agree on working together it does not matter if I am right or if you are right, if you don't agree with the way I do things I'll leave because you are the boss.  If I cannot convince you of this then I leave", so he says: "No, man we like you,  you're a good guy, we want you here but let's change this management thing, let's do it then finally the following way, we do it like we run a hospital, the academic hospitals.  We'll have two persons in charge, the one is the Superintendent of the hospital", which in 99.999% of cases is a medical doctor and the other one is the Dean of the Medical Faculty which is 100% of the cases a medical doctor.  And he said: "In this case we'll bring in Dr Swanepoel to assist you sort-of as the Superintendent side and he will run, as if indicated, the administrative side of it and you will be the Dean sort of, running overall the scientific side of it reporting then to us.  You will be reporting to Wouter more and Dr Swanepoel reporting to the auditing side of it more".  So I said: "Well, that sounds fine to me", so he said: "Okay, tomorrow afternoon 4 o'clock we'll have a meeting at my home in Muckleneuk".  
 We had the meeting and at the meeting he said: "As of today Daan Goosen, you are removed from your position, you have no contact or influence with anyone in RRL and you report directly to Dr Swanepoel".  That is what happened in '86.
 After I had discussions with them, I'm saying: "Please if you do this transfer management I'm happy, I will go if you're not happy with me but let's do it carefully" but that is what they did.  '87, so that then developed RBO, the whole thing which we have explained.  '87 I've gone back and I was then faced with this situation of now the standard of this research facility was seriously a concern for me and I wasn't supported by Dr Swanepoel in this and that was when I said: "Look, now I cannot go on, I have a problem, I have to sort this thing out".  That was in 1988.
 '87 I went back, the second half of '87 I went to Roodeplaat Teelondernemings.  In the middle of 1988 these tests were done, the survey was done by the MRC and that was when I had an obstacle which I couldn't get over on my own.

MR CHASKALSON: And how did you try and sort out the problem?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, I couldn't really sort out the problem, it was sorted out for me.  In the end of it all, and all the facts are documented and available, in the end of it all I was isolated, victimised - I don't want to go into details, I think in the end I'm very relieved that I was discharged.  Apart from financially I was very definitely ruined but in the end of it I was called in to the Military Intelligence Office and there was a person - now those times were very stressful for me, I can't remember his name exactly, there was a person a Colonel, I think it was a Colonel du Preen, and he told me: "Look, you have committed a breach of security, we have to throw you in jail or charge you with high treason", something like that ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry, could you tell us what your breach of security was?