Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it, this is apart from his answer that they had come to formulate this slogan called: "The Third Freedom Struggle".

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, other than that - that's what - other than that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I understand your answer that the slogan: "The Third Freedom Struggle", may have been interpreted by people in their own way, the question is: "Apart from that slogan, was there any other statement made by the CP which would lead Mr Walus to believe that he was carrying out policy"?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, very strongly worded speeches and addresses were made, I don't have them all in front of me but I mentioned one example.  Is it necessary to refer to more than one example?  Would they be less guilty if there were five examples than if for instance, there was only one example? - but there was more than just that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, if that was so, why did you give the answer that you gave on top of page three of R6?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Because the CP had not been involved in planning for violence but the CP did say that if certain requirements weren't met - and that was a true statement, then there would be chaos in South Africa and that is what we actually see now.
	450 farmers gather the other day and the CP didn't plan that and the reason for the meeting is because farmers are being killed every day and that was the case in those days, people were being killed and there was a reaction.
	And I want to say to you that I'm going to issue a statement after this, in which I say that I support the farmers when they say that they are going to defend themselves against these attacks.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I appeal to you that we confine ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: But if you ask me if I did any planning, the answer has to be: "No, the CP didn't do anything as far as support to the farmers to defend themselves is concerned" - the process is running and I'm going to issue a statement in which I'm going to say that we support them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can we please confine ourselves to the facts of this case as they existed at April 1993, Doctor Hartzenberg?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: If you don't want me to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: May I just interrupt please, this is not going to take you very much further Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got an answer which says that the announcement of a slogan plus strong speeches by people, may have led Mr Walus to do what he did  believing that he was acting ...[indistinct]  That's as far as it can go, otherwise there's going to be a repetition of questions and answers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will abide by that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, Mr Derby-Lewis was on the Transvaal Executive of the Conservative Party, correct?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Conservative Party had proper structures in which it's policy was formulated and amended if need be.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he - to your knowledge at any structure, raise the questions as to whether the Conservative Party's policy had changed to one of violence?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I can't remember what happened in each and every meeting but what I can say is, that as far the worsening situation was concerned - well, this was discussed at every meeting and that period was the time when we were actually busy with the mobilisation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, in connection with the mobilisation, the option of resistance was set out - according to Mrs Derby-Lewis who was there, as a contingency plan and not something that was decided to go into, do you agree with that interpretation?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: The whole purpose of the mobilisation was so that we could retain our freedom, that's was what is was about and that was the case for all these 18 fronts on which we mobilised.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was: "Was it a contingency plan which could only be put into operation by the decision of the Party"?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: If an extraordinary step had to be taken, then it probably would have necessitated a decision by the Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to the policy of the Conservative Party, you as the acting leader - immediately after the 10th of April, must have taken notice of the statement made by Mr Thomas Langley?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: The effect of which was: "We must minimise violence whatever side of the political spectrum it hits"?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: "If there is one thing that must arise from Mr Hani's death, it is further emphasis on the said senselessness of violence", did that come to your notice at the time as a public statement published in the newspapers?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I saw it and I also saw that Mr Langley had rejected violence from whichever part of the spectrum it happened but Mr Langley was not a spokesman - he's not the Law and Order spokesman for the CP, that was Jeug Prinsloo and at that stage he also issued a statement and the statement which he issued can be regarded as the Conservative Party's official statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it Mr Langley's interpretation of the Conservative Party's policy?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: He wasn't the spokesman, he issued a statement because he had been approached and when he was asked what his views were, he actually gave his views but the official statement by the Party was done by Advocate Prinsloo.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did it come to your notice that in the Sowetan of the 15th of the fourth '93, Doctor Andries Treurnicht said that the Conservative Party rejected murder as a political tool and disapproved of the killing?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I probably didn't read the Sowetan but I accept that Doctor Treurnicht said that and that was his view.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did it come to your notice that on the 19th of April '93, Doctor Willie Snyman, CP Member of Pietersburg said that everyone was very upset to hear about Mr Derby-Lewis's arrest - "Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg, Deputy Leader of the CP said that the news had come out of the blue and had caught them unawares".  You said that?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I said that yesterday, yes, that is what I said and Doctor Snyman also said what he is quoted as having said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, all these are in R3 but they have been read into the record, I merely want to draw the witnesses attention that it came to his notice and I don't want to have repetition.
	Did it come to your notice - well, perhaps I should - because these come in a different period after the conviction, I should just deal with - at the time of the arrest of Mr Derby-Lewis, did you go on record that you believed in his innocence in relation to Mr Hani's death and accused the National Party and the police of merely wanting to besmirch the good name of the Conservative Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, that's correct.  Is that not the norm in South Africa, that a man is innocent until proved guilty?

GEORGE BIZOS: But you found the National Party and the police guilty of accusing an innocent man of a crime that you believed he had not committed?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, and I'll tell you why I said that, if you read further you'll see why I said that because Mrs Mandela in London had made the statement that is was a faction of the ANC and she mentioned two names in this regard which weren't published here, that these people were responsible for Mr Hani's death and I said: "Why are you investigating the CP and it's people but you're not investigating the ANC in the light of Mrs Mandela's statement"?

GEORGE BIZOS: You did say that as well but let's concern ourselves about what you said about Mr Derby-Lewis.  Now, when Mr ...[intervention]

MR PRINSLOO: It is actually relevant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: His evidence is on the record.
	Do carry on.