Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you ever receive any feedback similarly from any structures from Guguletu Police Station, from wherever ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I cannot recall Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: You cannot recall.  Did you ever receive any instructions say from the Western Province JMC as ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: As to ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was there any instruction that was indicated as to how you should deal or how the situation in Crossroads and KTC should be dealt with, in particular what action ought to be taken against either the Witdoeke or the Comrades?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I was referred to a document which was received by the Chairman of the Western Cape JMC.  Now if I just recap again, the Western Cape JMC Chairman was the Divisional Commissioner of Police, he was at that level.  He handed me ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: What was his name?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well at the time it was Brigadier Swart, if I can recall, but there was also the vice chairman ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Who was the Vice-Chair?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It was Brigadier Kritzinger or Brigadier de Jager from the Defence Force.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  So there were instructions and/or feedbacks or reports that you got from WP-JMC..... ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: As to action that ought to be taken?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Can I refer to one ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Maybe we'll come there, I just wanted to have it on record as to whether there was.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Alright.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I see that you are careful to say you were able to deal with all matters below your level ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Which I had knowledge of.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Now when the Western Province S-JMC, that is now on your level, could not find a solution to a particular problem, for instance if you could identify the unrest situation at Crossroads as a particular problem, now what were your communication lines?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sorry Sir can you repeat again, I just want to make sure.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  When your level could not find the solution to a particular problem, what would be your line of communicating that particular problem?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes.  I would, if we were informed of a particular problem and we could not resolve it at the S-JMC level obviously my chairman had a presence on the next level, at the Western Province JMC level, and if he took note of it he would then give them feedback on that issue. And if it was necessary I would note that particular one, that issue, which was at their level if they had to make the decisions whatever the decisions were.  And then I would send it on to them and say look I cannot resolve the problem, or this committee has no jurisdiction as to resolve the problem please if you want to help us, help us with this problem.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I noted that earlier you said you did not have any direct communication with the State Security Council.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now where you had a matter such as for instance the problem in Crossroads would you communicate via SAP Headquarters in Pretoria for instance?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No I would not do that Sir, not in my office.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Excuse me, the only communication I had with Head Office was the daily incident report which I sent away to them of incidents and ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Can you give us an example of a daily incident report, what would it be?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: They would want to know how many people were patrolling the area, how many incidents of stone-throwing had taken place and so forth and so forth and so forth, and if there had been any action from the side of the Police.  Now the reports that I had received at my level I would then consolidate that and I would send it away the following morning.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sorry, to the Police Headquarters.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Were any persons identified as causing problems between the Witdoeke and Comrades in any of the reports that you dealt with?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I knew at the time that there was conflict between the elder people or one group of people and the other group of people.  Who they were particularly and why that had caused I wouldn't know what the reason for that was, except for the fact that there was some political arguments between themselves.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you saying that the nature of your reports were not identifying personalities?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Personalities were mentioned, yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, what I am saying is, was there for instance an instance where any of your reports would say people have been identified as trouble-makers, Toyisa, Yamile and all those people from the Comrades side.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes, that would be included in the security report.  And because we did not handle, we weren't in a position to deal with that, that report was taken by my chairman to the one level above me and then they had to decide.  I was not at that meeting, I was busy doing my work in the office.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, no, no I was not particularly wanting to know whether you were present or not.  You were, as I understand your evidence well, you will correct me if I am wrong, dealing with reports that came?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you said these reports came from levels sometimes below you, they would come from Guguletu Police Station, this that and the next thing.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: From the Mini-JMCs.

MR NTSEBEZA: From the Mini-JMCs.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: And from the Joint Information Centre which gave us the security report in the morning.

MR NTSEBEZA: Exactly.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And would they come also from VEIKOM?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well yes, they would also - if that wasn't contained in the security report VEIKOM would from time-to-time just add on.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Now those are the reports - now to the best of your recollection did those reports identify both the Witdoeke and the Comrades or either the Comrades or the Witdoeke as the source of the problem in the area, do you recall?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: If I can recall it was mentioned in those reports, Sir.  If I can recall I think it was.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would they identify as a source of the problems in your recollection?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I don't know if it must, if it was much detail, I cannot - please it was a couple of years ago, but I cannot remember if the exact cause of the problem was mentioned in that document.  But that there were problems between two groups that was mentioned yes, but I don't know exactly what caused it, if it was, whatever it was.

CHAIRPERSON: There seems to be a problem with the Xhosa interpretation please and English and Afrikaans.  There is a problem with hearing the English as it is spoken, could Chris please sort it out for us.  Meanwhile please continue Mr Ntsebeza, it will be sorted out.
 Dr Ramashala wants to ask a question.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Vermeulen you heard Mr du Toit's testimony.  Would you have received - I know that he was reporting through the GIK, Joint Information Committee.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Would you have received reports submitted by Mr du Toit?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Would you have read them?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: The Committee would have read it, yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: No, no, would you have read them?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes, as well.