Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR VISSER: With great respect, we would have expected Mr Memani to say: "Oh Mr Mbanjani, yes I know exactly which the incidents are and now I'm going to put to you what my clients are saying" but that's obviously not going to happen.
	May I re-open my evidence - leading my evidence in chief Mr Chairman?

MR VISSER: Mr Mbanjani, you've already been asked this but let's just ask a little bit closer about this, you were aware of Mr Nelson Ngo in Bloemfontein in 1985/86 thereabouts?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would not tell the year because Mr Ngo in our offices every handler, you'd not be able to identify who is the handler of a particular person.  When you go to the toilet, in the passage you'd see somebody at night but during the day you don't see him.  He left without knowing who his handler is because I was not able to communicate with him.

MR VISSER: The point is that in your recollection you regard, you remember Mr Ngo as an informer, is that what you're saying is that what you're saying, with a handler?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: As we were talking in the kitchen you would drop and hear what they're saying but I was never aware that this person was an informer.

UNKNOWN: Mr Visser, could I kindly try to assist.
	You've made an affidavit, have you got your affidavit before you and you're confirmed this affidavit?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now look at paragraph 3 at the top of page 27.  I don't whether you understand Afrikaans, there you say
"While I saw Ngo at our offices on occasion and knew that he in his school years was an informant and afterwards a member of the SAP, I did not have any direct contact with him"
Sub-paragraph 3:
"I heard that Ngo during 1989, was charged with the murder of Mr Venter and was found guilty and was sentenced to prison"
Now the crux of the matter:
"His allegation that I was involved with the murder is strongly denied.  I do not have any knowledge of a 4 X 4 vehicle, a Nissan and had no contact with Ngo as alleged"
Is there anything you want to add to that?  About the vehicle or the murder of Mr Venter?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I know nothing about this murder.  I was an administrative officer and I heard that Ngo killed a person.  I even red it in the newspaper, Volksblad, that Ngo killed a white person.  That the person who was killed was Mr Venter, I heard it here.  I want to tell this Commission the truth, I had never had any contact with Ngo in his life.  I know nothing that relates to Ngo.

MR VISSER: There was a suggestion on behalf of Mr Ngo that after Mr Venter had been murdered, Mr Venter's motor car which was a Toyota Cressida was stolen and it was driven to Batu.  Do you know anything about that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I know nothing about Mr Venter's murder.  I did not know anything about the car you've just talked about.  I was working in an office, I would not be in the position to go deep and listen to the news.

MR VISSER: I've just realised that I've mentioned the word Batu twice Mr Chairman, it's clearly incorrect, it's Botshabelo of course. The man was in Botshabelo, I'm terribly sorry.
	The suggestion by Mr Ngo is that Mr Mamome spoke to you there at Botshabelo police station and that he asked you whether you had made arrangements as requested with regard to this motor car.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I was working as an administrative officer.  I had a lot of work to do.  I started working at half past seven until 4 o'clock.

MR VISSER: Mr Mbanjani, just listen to the question.  Did Mr Mamome make arrangements for you about what to do with the stolen vehicle belonging to Mr Venter?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: No arrangements were made with Mr Mamome.

MR VISSER: Do you know anything about this car?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I know nothing about this car.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo furthermore alleges that you then lent them or rather transported them in a Nissan four wheel drive to Section S in Botshabelo, did that ever happen?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: No such thing happened.

MR VISSER: And that you introduced to them, that is Mr Mamome, Mr Ngo and Warrant Officer Ramouseau to two people.  The one was Ben Ramorakome - R-a-m-o-r-a-k-o-m-e and Zacharia Khetsi - K-h-e-t-s-i.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I know nothing of that incident, even the names that you are mentioning I do not know because I was not present at that place in Botshabelo.

MR VISSER: You then instructed them, I'm sorry, he also says that these two people work in the national hospital as security guards.  Do you know two people or one person or anybody who works in the national hospital as a security guard by those names?
Ben Ramorakome and Zacharia Khetsi, do you know any such persons?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not know them.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Ngo said that you instructed them to go with the persons that I mentioned before, Mr Mamome, Mr Ramouseau and Mr Ngo, to Bloemfontein to go and help to go and collect the property of Askari members.  Do you know anything about that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I know nothing about that incident.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, I don't need to go further with that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should continue just a little bit: "and that after that he took you and dropped you back at the police station".

MR VISSER: Yes, and then after all of that you - you heard the Chairman, do you know anything about that?  Did that ever happen?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have never met them.  This whole incident is new to me.

MR VISSER: You were also implicated in the alleged torturing of comrades at Botshabelo, by Mr Ngo, and he says about you - at page 35 of his application, I'm sorry, 32 of his application
"Members of the security police and the riot squad police who participated in the beating up of comrades arrested at Botshabelo were as follows"
and your name Warrant Officer Mbanjani is mentioned.  Now let me just tell you the background.  There was evidence that during 1985/86, we're not sure when, there were a large group of people that were arrested in the time of unrest, approximately 40 of them, and they were taken to Botshabelo police station and according to Mr Ngo they were there arrested in various ways.  Do you know anything about that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, people were arrested in Botshabelo and the arrangements were done from the head office.  Then we were given support, people were arrested.  There was a section that was responsible for those people, it was called the Black Section.  The next day we went back to our different duties but in all the events where people were arrested, I do not remember Ngo's presence, I do not remember his presence.

MR VISSER: Did you take part in the administrative issues surrounding these people or in their interrogation, this group of 40 people?  Did you have anything to do with them in other words?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would not remember the people you are talking about because we worked with many people.  According to instructions, if your name appears you have to take an instruction but even though it is like that I do not remember assaulting anyone.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can go a bit further. The suggestion was not just that you assaulted but that you ordered them to strip so they could run round in a ring so that they could be beaten with plastic shambucks and that you then ordered them to do push-ups and frog-jumps.  Did anything like that happen?