Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in dispute that these guns were used for that attack Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: No, but Mr Chairman with respect, he makes an association from weapons supplied at a time whether a month or more before this attack.  I simply want to find out from the witness on what basis does he make that association.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear about the attack on the Golf Club?

MALUSI MORRISON: I heard of the attack on Saturday over the news that there was an attack at King William's Town.

MR PRIOR: You told the committee that you also agreed, you associated yourself with that attack, the result of that attack.  Is that right?

MALUSI MORRISON: Yes that is so.

MR PRIOR: I want to know your view on this - what political objective was achieved there or was sought to be achieved by attacking King William's Town Golf Club because we heard evidence yesterday that the victims that were targeted predominantly were senior citizens, elderly people at a Christmas function?

MALUSI MORRISON: I think you are wrong when you say what happened at the Golf Club was a senior citizens function because there was somebody who testified that he was a member of the Special Force in the Airforce during the Government of - the Apartheid Government.  There were some people who were like that who were present at those functions, policemen, army personnel, Mr Radu - I cannot remember his name properly, who was a Minister of the National Party.

MR PRIOR: Did you find out later that the reason for the attack was for that purpose because there were National Party Representatives, there were senior members of the Airforce, the were Senior Members of the Police Services and the army -that was the reason for attacking King William's Town?  Sorry just to clarify the airforce story.  Mr Stanford who was here, the elderly gentleman, had been in the Airforce for five years, obviously when he was a much younger person.  Probably during the Second World War, the Korean War, some such time.  He certainly wouldn't have been in a position to be in the Airforce in the more recent times so just let's...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Military or National Intelligence was there.  The member of parliament was there because his wife was playing the piano.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, also I don't know, maybe the Committee will clarify on this issue of this senior citizen.  I don't think we have evidence to that effect, we have questions which were put by Mr Prior, there's no evidence put here that that party, under oath and which he was tested that it was a senior citizens party.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, we're getting there - we're listening to the applicant's evidence, I will be leading evidence at the appropriate stage as to the true nature of the event on that evening but obviously for purposes of questioning the witnesses it's necessary to put what the evidence will be.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that you would object strongly if it was not put to your clients what Mr Prior was going to subsequently prove in evidence?  They'll be given a chance to answer it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I agree with you fully on that aspect but Mr Chairman it is always, I think it's referred to Mr Stanford who was not even under oath, I also have myself questions for him because I have many questions about him also, you know, that's the problem I have if he refers to him and he was not under oath, we didn't have any chance to question him on some of the application he came up with.

CHAIRPERSON: One quite obviously can't accept as evidence what he said when he said "I saw you standing on the left" or something, but he can put to the witness "you were standing on the left" if he is subsequently going to lead evidence to that effect.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Morrison I simply want to ask you and I wanted a simple answer, after you heard about the Golf Club, did you ever confirm with anybody, your Commander, Mr Xundu, Mr Ntcuba, that the reason for the attack on King William's Town Golf Club was because there was a Nationalist Party representative, there were high ranking Police Officials and so forth there - that was the reason for attacking the Golf Club because that seems to be your answer.  I just want clarity.

MALUSI MORRISON: No, I did not do that.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MALUSI MORRISON: What was an APLA operation that has occurred, there is no reason for APLA soldiers to make follow ups.  It is Commanders and those involved have taken the decision that that target is alright.  I was in logistics, had no reason to make follow ups as to why did you do that, it is wrong, here or there, there was no business of me going there, they've done what they did and they've finished.

MR PRIOR: I want to ask you finally, your participation in this matter, you were simply carrying out orders, is that right?  You were carrying out orders of Comrade Ntcuba?

MALUSI MORRISON: No, it was not only taking orders because I was part of APLA at the time.  I was doing my job.  Yes we accepted orders, not taking orders under duress.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I just have a moment to confer whether any of the victims wish to ask questions?  I think Mr Davis has one or two questions, may he be called up?

MARK DAVIS: This is less the question about understanding the sequence of events that led to the King William's Town attack as it is a question about the applicants beliefs and perspectives.  I just refer to your quote from Robert Sebukwe in which he states that they hate whites not because they're white because they're oppressors.  My question is just that now in 1998 do you feel things have changed?  Do you still see whites as oppressors or not any more?

MALUSI MORRISON: Indeed things have partly changed but not fully changed, completely changed.

MARK DAVIS: I understand that change happens slowly but has this changed your perspective on whether you hate whites or not any more?

MALUSI MORRISON: I can say that the change is still not complete.

MR PRIOR: You haven't answered the man twice now.  He's asking you about whether you hate whites or not?

MALUSI MORRISON: No.

MARK DAVIS: Thank you, that's all I wanted to ask.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I call Lungisumsi Ntintili, the fourth applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Is his name, his first name is it one name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because this is put on the thing as two, it should be one name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It should be one name it's just - it should be Longisu o. u., it should be u. not a., u. must be with umsi, u.m.

CHAIRPERSON: Lungisumsi - right thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, there was just a confusion Mr Chairman, Mr Xundu thought that he was going to be called the other applicants ...[inaudible].

MR PRIOR: Will you be speaking in English or Xhosa, Mr Ntintili?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: English.

MR PRIOR: Okay.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
	Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Do you confirm the contents of this affidavit which is before the Committee, that this is the affidavit that you have made by yourself?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll go to paragraph 4 of the affidavit.
	Well, Mr Ntintili is indicating that "I became directly involved in the APLA operation at King William's Town by harbouring the APLA operatives who sprung the attack.  They were brought to me by Thembelani Xundu who was my student."
	Now, my point is that, can you for the benefit of the Committee, explain how did you become indirectly involved in this King William's Town Golf Club attack?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: It was on, I mean it was sometime beginning of the year in 1992 that Comrade Xundu came into my school and I found that he's a PASO members and of which I knew him from other activities of the PAC and in short, as a member of PASO, whenever he had problems he used to come to me.