Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: They frequented the area and we have indicated previously that on Saturdays they held meetings there to give reports, and to debrief and whatever, as it was explained earlier.

ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying, please help me if I am wrong, you didn't have any verified or any confirmed information that on that specific day, on that specific time, twelve o'clock that Security high brass Police would visit the place?  You didn't have any information of that sort at all am I right?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, you are wrong.

ADV STEENKAMP: What is the answer then sir, in other words, please help me.  What you are saying is you had information ...

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That they frequented ...

ADV STEENKAMP: Can I please finish my question, you had information that on this specific Saturday, this specific incident which happened on I think the 13th of June, 30th of July sorry, at twelve o'clock, you had information that on that day high brass Security Branch Police will be in that place.  Did you have information to this extent, can you answer me just that please first?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Not that they will be in that place, but we knew that it was a norm that after having had discussions in their offices they would go have lunch there and have tea there.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are saying is it was the normal thing to happen and you expected them to be there?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can I ask you according to our information there was a Police kiosk which was situated in a small shop across the Wimpy Bar, that was actually manned on a full time basis by the Police.  Why didn't you decide to attack that kiosk than the Wimpy Bar?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Personally I did not know of the existence of the kiosk.

ADV STEENKAMP: Are you saying you didn't know about this kiosk at all?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am saying I did not know of the existence of the kiosk in that area.

ADV STEENKAMP: Who did the reconnaissance on this Wimpy Bar, do you know who was involved there?  Can you give us a name of the group who was responsible for this, and who reported to you?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It is not a group, it is Alfas Ndlovu.

ADV STEENKAMP: And he never reported to you that there actually was a Police kiosk there?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No.  Not that he did not report, but he reported on the matter that he was dealing with, and that was Wimpy.

ADV STEENKAMP: So did he report there was a Police kiosk?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: He could not report on the existence of the kiosk.  The kiosk was not an area of interest to us.   He reported on the matter that we handled, that was Wimpy at that time.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman, if I have to repeat myself, I don't want to labour this point.  Just before I step off this issue, one thing I can't understand you wanted to attack the structures which supported Apartheid, among them Police or Security Police.  But in this issue, you decide not to attack this Police kiosk which was full of Police.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think Mr Steenkamp, the matter has been dealt with, we explained that situation in length in our main submission and it was explained by the Commander.
	Our area of interest was in Wimpy and if there was existence of any Police kiosk nearby or opposite, that I did not know.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you have any other information on other, or do you know, do you have any knowledge on the other Wimpy's that was attacked by ANC or MK members?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, no.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just in short explain to me what was MK's policy regarding the identification of military targets at the time of the incident?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: What we are saying is that we are going to attack all enemy personnel, wherever they are.  We have also indicated that we would follow them in the Bantu (indistinct), in towns, in the cities, in the rural areas and everywhere, and this is what we actually did at that time.

ADV STEENKAMP: Who decided on the use of this super limpet I think that is what the applicant, the first applicant said.  Who decided on the use of this limpet mine, the super limpet mine?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: We collectively decided on it, all of us.

ADV STEENKAMP: Who planted the bomb?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Alfas.

ADV STEENKAMP: How do you know that, were you present?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: He reported back to the Unit that he planted the bomb.

ADV STEENKAMP: Were you during this planning, who was also involved in the planning, it was you and the first applicant, who else was involved?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It was Alfas, it was Molwedi, it was Simfrey Mkomesi who is now late.

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry, can you give us, it was you, the first ...

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It was myself, it was Ernest Sigasa, it was Alfas Mabore Ndlovu, it was Mokoena Molwedi.

ADV STEENKAMP: You said he is deceased?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No,  lastly it was Simfrey Mkomesi who is deceased.

ADV STEENKAMP: Okay, sorry, thank you.  Exactly what was the role of your Commander?  How did it work, did he give you instructions and you had to carry them out or can you just explain to me how did it work?  This Unit you had, how did it work?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: If I may refer you to page 2 of our submission, we are stating quite clearly there what the role of the Commander was there and Bullet.3, he gave guidance to military activities.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, maybe I have missed the point here, but I was under the impression that this statement was the statement made by the first applicant and that it was not a joint statement.  Maybe I am wrong, I don't understand this.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was a statement by the first applicant, but this witness has associated himself in so far as it effects him, with that statement.

MR KOOPEDI: If I may answer, it was decided that because all the applicants are associating themselves with similar acts, for the sake of brevity, only one statement would be prepared.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't want to be very technical, but I would ask on behalf of the victims that this statement at least be signed by whoever is going to be handed in the statement on behalf of the applicants, because the position as far as the Act goes Mr Chairman, we are dealing with applications are required by the Act, and I am not quite sure and my difficulty is this, this information contained in this statement was not catered or not rendered or not supplied by any of the applicants at all.
	As far as the victims go we find it a bit difficult to understand how this information can just be submitted and numerous acts be added to the application of this applicant, maybe I must ask the applicant why this is done today.
	If I can ask you sir, why are you adding all this new information in this statement, and why didn't you take the opportunity when you prepared your application, to submit this to the TRC?  Can you give an explanation of that?