bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-16

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: I wanted to say this when Miss Mhlawuli was here but perhaps I 
should speak and you will tell her. I said after Mrs Mazwai that I was deeply proud of the 
fact that I was black and that we had people of her calibre.  We are proud to have people 
like you and your husbands and the reason why we won the struggle, is not because we 
had guns, we won the struggle because of people like you. People of incredible strength, 
and this country is fortunate to have people like you.  
 And I wanted to say to your daughter, that her father where he is looking down, is 
proud of her, and you should feel you've done a tremendous job with her, that in the 
anguish which she is feeling, she can have the graciousness that she showed in expressing 
appreciation for what Dr Boraine and the principal of the school have done.
 We have a tremendous country, which has got tremendous people, and you are 
one example of why we make it in this country. And that she, your daughter should say, I 
want to forgive, we want to forgive, after what she has experienced, and seen what 
happened to her mother and to her father, and she says, we want to forgive, but we want to 
know who to forgive.  We give thanks to God for you, and thank you for your contribution 
to our struggle, and thank you, even if it was reluctant in a sense, rightly, thank you for 
sacrificing your husbands.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

DR BORAINE: We call to the witness stand Mrs Nyameka Goniwe.  Good morning Nymeka, I'm very pleased to see you.

NYAMEKA GONIWE: (sworn states)
The name of Matthew Goniwe is known not only throughout the Eastern Cape, not only throughout South Africa but in many many parts of the world, but your name is equally well known and we are very grateful that despite the ordeal that you have been through in facing two inquests, one of which lasted a very long time, which didn't end satisfactorily as far as you're concerned, but you still have the grace and the willingness and the courage to come and tell the story, we believe that that is right and we are very very grateful to you for being here, we hope that you will feel amongst friends and that you can be very relaxed and take your time and John Smith will lead you as you tell your story to the nation.

NYAMEKA GONIWE: Thank you very much.

MR SMITH: Thank you Mr Chairman, good morning Nyameka, are you okay? Nyameka, you have prepared a statement that you would like to present to the Commission this morning, is that correct.

NYAMEKA GONIWE: That's correct.

MR SMITH: I am therefore not going to interrupt you when you present this statement, and I might ask you after you presented your statement just by way of clarification.  Mr
EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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Chairman I would ask, this is somewhat of a departure from the manner in which evidence has been produced before but in my consultation with Mrs Goniwe, she has felt more comfortable to present her evidence in this manner, and now I therefore ask the Commission to allow her to present her evidence.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SMITH: You may proceed then.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-15

ELIZABETH NOTHEMBILE HASHE: Yes, the stay-away continued but on Monday evening, my husband arrived.  They were just outside for a patrol and he came in and said, "Oh well the stay-away was 100%". We knew that this thing would continue.  We were talking to each other nicely.  At about 12 o'clock a helicopter was hovering and I just decided that it was just a helicopter hovering above but something made me notice that this helicopter was hovering right above my house.
And he said to me, "Ntobile, those are the Boers, what have we done? You should know that anything might happen really". While we were still puzzled, talking about this thing, actually our child woke us up, he wanted to pipi.  After listening to this, there was a loud sound. I saw fire.  I didn't know what was happening.  I heard him shouting at the children, he said, "Visumuse, switch off the main switch!", and I ran out of the house, I went out of the window, you know, in my house you can jump through big windows and then another one and you get out.  On my way out there was a police van driving off. I knew it was the police. They were 
EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
11 HASHE
not actually driving off, they were taking another turn into another street.  A black man from this squad was asking a question.  What's happening.  I started chasing them, I started shouting at them, I asked them what's really happening?  They went off, they left my place.

MR SMITH: It was in March?

ELIZABETH NOTHEMBILE HASHE: Yes, my house was damaged, it was destroyed.  It was in a shoddy condition.  You;d never see where the front and the back were, the electric wiring was burned, you didn't even see the chords.  There was a very big hole that led to next door. We found people, comrades came back, we repaired and renovated our house. The electricity was fixed the very same day and Mr Fassi gave us a bed. I said, No Toby, can we go and find out what's happening?  Mr Fassi gave us a bed.

MR SMITH: Did you report his incident with the police ?

ELIZABETH NOTHEMBILE HASHE: How could we report the police to the police?

CHAIRPERSON: Order please!  Order! Order please! I asked you, even if we are not a court of law but please let us behave.  We are not in a political meeting, this is not a rally.  We have to hold, contain ourselves if there are some of the things which have really forced us to do what you have just done now. We are just asking please.

MR SMITH: Mrs Hashe, I would like you to ...(indistinct), On the eighth of May, do you remember that day?

ELIZABETH NOTHEMBILE HASHE: Yes.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-15

RITA GALELA: I learned that they were killed by the police and there was an allegation that he committed suicide, but I do not believe that.  If you haven't buried your loved one, you always have suspicions that, "I didn't bury my loved one", and if they have killed my husband, I'd like him to be brought home again so that I can make a dignified funeral for him.  I would like them to confess and state why they killed my husband and would like to know who were the perpetrators and the murderers of my husband, so that we can be able to reconcile.  If we have washed our hands we will be glad, we'll reconcile because we'll never resurrect them.  We will never make them live again.  We don't want their disappearance to remain indefinitely.   At least the truth must come.  We are glad today that there is this Truth Commission and we appeal to it that it should to trace our husbands.

MR SMITH: How would you like the Commission to assist you?

RITA GALELA: I would like the Commission to help us, because e we are struggling with my family.  We are targets, when there are electricity problems, we are the first ... (end of tape) ... in the same boat and we are unable to assist each other.  If for instance there is a knock at my door, it won't be and I will learn that the same thing has happened to her.  All the Boers have done the same thing.  What they did to me they were doing to Mrs Hashe because we are neighbours.  So I request and appeal to the Commission that they should be able to support us, to give assistance
EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
47 GALELA
we cannot even make lives of our children to be enjoyable. At least we'd like to enjoy the same standard of living as the majority of the people.
 God is still with us and he is supporting us in his own way, but we'd like at least to be assisted like any other family to grow together with our children and in a dignified manner.  The doors are still cracked because we struggle to have money.  My house was a target, they would kick everything out of place. Kick windows.  In the morning the children, or even during the night the children would wake up and see a lot of light, torches and everybody was going around our house and I'm referring to the police if I talk about this.  I would the people to understand how we feel and I would like the Commission to assist in this regard.

MR SMITH: Nombulela  thank you very much, Mr Chairman that concludes my questioning of the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you any?

UNKNOWN: I would like to ask another question, this question was also for Mrs Hashe. If the Commission has all the powers to investigate and find out the truth and realise there is a possibility of getting information of what happened to your husbands, do you give us permission to go on with this investigation?

RITA GALELA: Yes we can all be glad.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions here? Any other questions?
Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

MR SANDI: You said they were instructed to put you aside then they will deal with you in a separate case?  The Commission is listening Mr Jordan you can carry on.

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Statements were taken from all of them, I was the last.  When it was my turn they said we don't know whether to take a statement from you because we were told that there are people who can be in a very good position to handle me.  Well we were taken with others, we were put into the cell without any statement having been taken.  You know I wasn't told why was I charged.  No fingerprints were taken. I only was taken to a prison cell.

MR SANDI: The statement says there is a special man who has to deal with you, did you understand what that meant?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: No I only knew when I met those guys that I was told they would attend to me.

MR SANDI: You said you were put aside?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: Yes I was together with other people who I found there and we were put into the cell.

MR SANDI: What happened in the afternoon after eight o'clock?

JOE THETHINENE JORDAN: The first one was called in.  It was the police who called him, he was wearing a uniform.  He was together with a Black man who was wearing private clothes.  They stepped in. They called the first one by his name and he answered, and they said we should follow.
 It wasn't long after we have left with him we heard a cry from the offices close to the cells that we were in.  This cry carried on for 30 to 35 minutes.  As I was worried 
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
7 T JORDAN
the second one was now being called.  The second one was called, the second thing happened, I think it was Zola.  The first one I can't remember.  It was Zola Mtensilana the second one.  He took what was awaiting him as well.  After 25 minutes the screaming went off. Then the second - the screaming was so loud, but after some time it went down.

MR SANDI: Do you think the screaming was from a person who has been beaten?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

CHAIRPERSON: We invite Mrs Bessie Nonqleba Mdoda to the stand.

BESSIE MDODA: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mdoda, you have been looking for your son for a very very long time, since 1979.

BESSIE MDODA: Yes Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Your situation is very different from some of those that we have been listening to in the last few hours.  We want you to know that you are as welcome as they were, that our door is wide open and we are very very grateful that you have come to give evidence and Miss Tiny Maya is going to lead the evidence and I will hand over to her now.  Thank you.

BESSIE MDODA: Thank you Doctor.

MS MAYA: Morning Mrs Bessie, this is the name that I have been using since I was very young.  You were born right in front of me my daughter.  When we start I know you feel, because we are a bit related.  Can you please relax, say anything you want to say, can you please tell us about your family, starting from Mfundo until in Umtata.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mrs Mdoda for your testimony, and this is a Commission that has to reveal everything that is brought here.  We want to thank you
that you could come here today to give testimony, thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

DR BORAINE: But you also have a special reason for wanting a death certificate, because you have no death certificate?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Is that because of the house?  Okay, thank you that's very helpful, thank you.

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: I was requesting that we should be shown the photograph.

MR SANDI: Was this photo taken in Tanzania?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes it was taken in Tanzania.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, and you brother.  We really think your presence here was valuable, we will try and help you, thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

BETH SAVAGE: Look I suppose that is something that I did omit.  The bomb blast took its toll on my family. I believe I'm a very strong person, I did have a complete breakdown after six months.  My daughter also had a breakdown, she was, well all the children tried to be mother, father, sister, brother, husband, everything to me, they really carried me, they picked me up and carried me.
 My son has had his problems as well, I think 
EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
10 BETH SAVAGE
psychologically, it affected my family in terms of them just being able to believe that it could actually happen to me. My father was a great, I grew up initially, when I was a little girl, we used to spend a lot of time in Zululand and I actually grew up in the kraals.  I had really a wonderful childhood, and my parents actually put a lot of young African people that worked for them, four that I can remember that they actually educated, and my father was a person that was really ante-apartheid. I think of all the people affected by the bomb blast, it affected my dad the worst.  He just went into a very deep depression and he died about six months ago. When I was ill he just used to sit next my bed and cry and say, "You know, I can't believe this".
 I feel bad because you know I'm not the only victim, but that is how it affected us, and then my mum, she couldn't carry on without him and she died two months later. Basically it just broke his heart.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, you are not the only one but you are certainly one, thank you.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Thank you, I just want to say, we are, I think a fantastic country.  We have some quite extraordinary people, yesterday, I had spoken about how proud I was to be black in seeing the kind of spirit that people showed in adversity, and now we're seeing another example, and I think it just augers so wonderfully well for our country.  We thank you for the
spirit that you are showing and pray that those who hear you, who see you will say, "Hey, we do have an incredible country with quite extraordinary people of all races".  And it is important for us to know that in the struggle, awful 
EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
11 BETH SAVAGE
things happened on both sides, and that we in this Commission should seek to be revealing all the truth about our country.  Thank you very much.

BETH SAVAGE: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

MR SHIYANI: I don't know what happened to the case events of the police, because at the time while I was at the hospital, the statement was taken.  If Jeff was here today, he would give evidence that the statement was taken with regard to this whole incident. Hinsa was not available, he was at Frere.
 I tried to publish an article in connection with this in the Daily Dispatch last year, because there is nothing tangible that is known about this.  The spokesman of police, Mr Njoko, said to me, a commission of enquiry was held, but there was no information about who shot at us.  I was surprised about this information.

MR SANDI: Do you believe that you can maybe suspect somebody who might have done this?

MR SHIYANI: This question is very difficult for me to answer, because the only thing that I know at present is that in the East London community, I don't have any enemy.  The only thing that I can think of is that the people who used to shoot us are those people who used to think that we were their enemies.

MR SANDI: When we sum up, would you like the Commission to EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
11 B.SHIYANI
make investigations about this assault?

MR SHIYANI: Yes I would like this to be investigated.  Because we are activists we know very well that we were in the struggle.  We didn't care about the shots that were directed at us, but I believe that I have a moral obligation, because of the many children who died at the time and they were not involved in the political activities.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mr Shiyani.

DR BORAINE: Any questions?

WENDY ORR: Mr Shiyani, apart from investigating this case, is there anything you would like the Commission to do for you?
(end of side  A of tape 14)

MR SHIYANI: (start of side B).... but what happened to the investigations.

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

DR BORAINE: We invite Mr Robert Stanford to the witness box please.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Mr Stanford you were here yesterday, is that right?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That's right, yes.

DR BORAINE: You came in with Mrs Savage?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I came in support of Mrs Savage, yes.

DR BORAINE: And you heard her testimony?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I did, I heard it in full, I heard all she had to say.

DR BORAINE: Right, and you were there on that occasion as well?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I was sitting next to her on that occasion.

DR BORAINE: And you too are very badly injured.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Yes, very badly injured.

DR BORAINE: It must have been very trying for you yesterday and again today, and we have special sympathy for you to have to go through it almost twice.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: It is, it's very difficult, and I hoped my daughter would be here with me, but she had to go under and urgent operation in Maritzburg yesterday and wasn't able to come down.

DR BORAINE: I'm very sorry about that, I hope it works out EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
2 R N STANFORD
alright.  Please feel very very relaxed and the questions will be led by June Crichton on my right and I'm going her over to you and we're very grateful to you for coming, thank you.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Before I start I start I would just like to thank the members of the local committees who interviewed me and who spent endless time with me in helping me, taking my statement and so on, who showed undue patience and I'm deeply grateful to them, as I'm sure everybody else is as well.

DR BORAINE: hat's very very kind of you to have made that note, and you're quite right, they've been working very indeed, we appreciate that comment, thank you.

JUNE CRICHTON: Good morning  Mr Stanford, thank you, my thanks as well to you for coming again today, to relate to us a little of, or as much as you can remember of the attack on the Kingwilliamstown Golf Club on the 28th of November 1992....(intervention)

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I think, should I not start with my background first of all and then come to that?

JUNE CRICHTON: Yes, I would like you to do that, I think it will relax you and that it would be good for you to do that...(intervention)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-12

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: This rape injured my mother, because after that she suffered from epileptic fits.

JUNE CRICHTON: How do you, Mrs Ben, feel about the fact that people who had raped your mother, who at that time was a 65 year old woman, was simply fined R7 500,00 and allowed to go back, presumably, into the army again?  What does that make you feel?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: This is a pain to me, because my mother died afterwards.

JUNE CRICHTON: If these people were to seek amnesty for the deed that they did, how would that make you feel?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: I do not know, because up until today I am not satisfied about what happened.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs Ben, are there any other children, did your mother have other children?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: Yes.

JUNE CRICHTON: Will you tell me how, if there are any that are still dependent that you are looking after.

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: Yes, two of them.

JUNE CRICHTON: Their ages.

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: One is 36 years old and the other one is 21 years old.  One is 36 and the other one is 24.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs Ben, in coming here today what were your expectations from the Commission?  What were you hoping that the Commission would do for you?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: I would like the Commission to help me with a tombstone for her grave.

JUNE CRICHTON: For your mother's grave?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: Yes, my mother's grave.

JUNE CRICHTON: Is that all that you wish to ask of the Commission at this stage?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: Yes, that is all.

JUNE CRICHTON: Is there anything further that you feel you would like to say that you might have forgotten at this point?

MANTOMBI MARIA BEN: No, that is all I had to say.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs Ben, we thank you for bringing this painful story to our attention.  In this day and age when rape is such a common thing, it is still shocking to hear that two young White men should rape an elderly woman such as your mother.  We extend our sympathy to you for an event that happened many years ago, but that has affected your life even up to now.  Thank you for your courage in coming forward to tell us about this.  We will, as the Commission, take note of what you have asked for about the tombstone and submit that recommendation to the President.  Thank you very much.  You may leave the stand.  Thank you, just, no, before you go, it might be that my colleagues would want to ask you questions.  So I am going to hand you back to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Crichton.  We thank you Mantombi.  We have no further questions.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
STATEMENT
I,
LOUIS L NONHONHO,
hereby state as follows:
I was previously employed as a Major General in the former Ciskei Police.  Prior to my appointment as Major General, in fact, shortly after I was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, I was placed as head of the Security Branch.        
Shortly before the arrest of Zwelakhe Bikitsha, a typed letter was received by the Security Police in Cambridge, informing them that there were people with firearms and explosives at Zwelakhe's house.  This information was sent to my head office in Bisho and I was sent to investigate.
When I arrived on the scene I saw that two members of the Police had been murdered and another person with an AK47 in his hand was found dead on the scene.
Some weeks later, whilst I was on leave, I was informed that Zwelakhe had been arrested.  I had nothing to do with his arrest and I deny the allegations contained n his charge against me.
I cannot understand why this matter is being brought to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  This matter was previously finalised in the Bisho High Court.  The matter was finalised under Case Number 19/88, when Zwelakhe received an undisclosed sum from the Ciskei Government in full and final settlement of his claim.
therefore, submit that there is absolutely no reason for this matter to be brought before this Commission.
DATED at EAST  LONDON this 4 day of JUNE 1997.
_________________________
(SIGNED)       LOUIS L NONHONHO

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.  We regret that Mr Nonhonho decided not to avail himself to us to answer a very pertinent question arising out of his statement.  One of which is the one that has been alluded to by Miss Maya but we are hoping that we will be able to meet with him under Section 29 of the Act and converse with him further on what he has said in his statement.  Thank you very much we'll adjourn and meet to-morrow at half past nine.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-09

REV XUNDU: I note that there are requests you mentioned when you gave your statement.  Firstly it is clear that you want full disclosure of the cause of his death, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

REV XUNDU: In your statement you mentioned a request that you would like medical treatment.  Are there any reasons why  you request medical attention?

UNKNOWN: I'm not requesting medical treatment for myself.

REV XUNDU: Didn't you make a request concerning your state of health?

UNKNOWN: No.

REV XUNDU: Is there any other request?

UNKNOWN: As our children left the country and their colleagues came back we as the parents of those who did not come back due to different reasons are affected because the children who came back are supporting their families.  If my child was here in 1986 he promised to do certain things for me and our home but unfortunately now he passed away and I don't know who is going to fulfill his promises to me.  I don't know who is going to support me.  As he was buried in that country and I'm a Xhosa person I would like his bones to be exhumed so that when I think of him I will be able to go and visit his grave.   I also have two children who are still at school.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mrs Koloti, thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Before we let you go I have one question, when you got to Tanzania you were told that they were sending messages to you that your son was sick and they waited two weeks for you to come to attend his funeral and a Mr Stofili was given a message to send to you.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Stofili got there while he was in hospital.

BONGANI FINCA: What I would like to know is who was telling you these things?

UNKNOWN: I don't remember those people's names but they were people who were in charge of  Dakaula Guest House Dakaula where I was staying.

BONGANI FINCA: They were people who were in Dakaula Guest House?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BONGANI FINCA: Were these people members of the ANC?

UNKNOWN: They were members of the ANC but I don't remember their names.

BONGANI FINCA: You said that you don't remember their names?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't remember their names.

BONGANI FINCA: Did you know their names before or do you have any idea who they were?

UNKNOWN: I will ask those young man who were there.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you  for your story Mrs Koloti and we will thank all of you afterwards.  You may go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

MR SANDI: So he did not give satisfactory evidence.  Did he deny that he'd attacked you?

UNKNOWN: No, he didn't.

MR SANDI: Did he again say that you worked together with the police?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he said I went to him carrying an Uzzi and he said that he was able to disarm me.  I asked him where that Uzzi was and I told him that he would not have been able to disarm me.

MR SANDI: In conclusion you would like Joe to clarify why he is accusing you of such?

UNKNOWN: I thought that as he is here maybe we'll hear what he has to say.

MR SANDI: Is that all Mr Leleki?   I'm not going to go into further details.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is all.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Leleki.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Leleki according to your evidence you don't know the names of the four people that were with Mr Jordan.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: But you'd recognise them if you saw them?

UNKNOWN: I only know Joe Jordan.  He would list these people.

BONGANI FINCA: Had they covered their faces?

UNKNOWN: Yes, the one had a scarf covering half of his face.  I remember the driver though because I think he was just hired, I don't think he knew anything.

BONGANI FINCA: Why do you think he was hired?

UNKNOWN: Because he did not look hard hearted and he was also asking me what was going on.

BONGANI FINCA: Would you be able to identify him?

UNKNOWN: No, I couldn't do so.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Leleki we'll give Mr Jordan a chance to answer and respond to your evidence, you may step down thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: We would like Mr T.W.S. Jordan to come forward.  I don't whether Mr Opperman is here.  Mr Jordan in your letter you said that Mr Opperman will represent you but he is not here.
I decided to come here alone.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you, we welcome you Mr Jordan we request that you give us your full names.

UNKNOWN: Tetinene Wadsworth Sipho Jordan.

BONGANI FINCA: We don't have time and there are a lot of people to be listened to to-day therefore we would appreciate it if people do not disturb us so that we can finish our work in time.  Mr Jordan please take the oath.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Jordan we'll hand over to you to give us your testimony and after hat we will ask you a few questions to get some clarity.  I hand over to you Mr Jordan.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson I thank you for the opportunity that my colleague Mr Leleki is here to-day before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to come and give evidence of what happened.  On this particular day the tenth if I'm not mistaken was not the first time that I met him.  I used to meet him previously.  An appointment was made by a lady named Noxhawe for him to come and see me.  This is not the Noxhawe working for the Truth Commission.  After a while he came to me on this particular day.  On the first day Noxhawe came with a young man by the name of Subu from Umlahzi when they introduced themselves to me.  Leleki also introduced himself.

BONGANI FINCA: Excuse me Mr Jordan Noxhawe, and Subu do you know their surnames?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you, Mr Jordan I have only one question for you.  The question is, the people you were with in the car, are they still alive?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson if those people were organised by me to be part of the attempt on his life when I apologised I would have told you that they are still alive and I know who they are but I don't know them.

BONGANI FINCA: The four people who were in the car, the one you know as Smu.

UNKNOWN: I knew two people Leleki and Smu.

BONGANI FINCA: In other words Smu will be able to come and testify on this matter.

UNKNOWN: Smu visited my twice with Leleki in my home.  Those were the two people I knew in that car.  When they got into the home they were both coming form Uhmlazi and the other two said they were coming from Uhmlazi and they were working in his Unit in Durban.

BONGANI FINCA: You said that what you know is that he was Smu, you don't know his surname?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know his surname.  He told me his surname but at that time it was not important to keep somebody's surname.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Where is Admiral?

UNKNOWN: Admiral is still around.

MR SANDI: What is he doing?

UNKNOWN: If I'm not mistaken I think he is a Lieutenant Colonel in the force.

MR SANDI: Xhaxha you referred to, do you know his full names?

UNKNOWN: No, he introduced himself to me as Xhaxha.

MR SANDI: Did you see him again?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I saw him in Butterworth.

MR SANDI: The man Mr Leleki referred to that found him lying there, did you meet him?

UNKNOWN: This is the man who came to pick me up the following morning and when we got there the ambulance was there taking him to the hospital.  This man was Xhaxha the one whom I said I met twice in Butterworth.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Jordan.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Jordan I'm sure you'll agree with me this is a very complicated story.  It is very strange that Mr Leleki and yourself don't know the people who were in the car and you cannot identify them to us because I think the people who were in the car should be able to corroborate either your story or his story.  You were in a sensitive operation and you did not know each other.  However if we can solve this complication we will try to solve it.  If we cannot solve this complication maybe the Commanders of Umkhonto weSizwe will try and solve it within the code of Umkhonto weSiezwe but I think Umkhonto weSizwe is no longer there but the then Commanders of Umkhonto weSizwe will try to solve this within the ANC.  If we can we will try and solve it but it looks like a very complicated story.  We thank you for your testimony.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

BONGANI FINCA: Doreen Rousseau thank you very much.  We will take the statement that you have read to us and incorporate it with the statement that is already with us here which is a written one.  We will request you to perhaps give us a copy of the photograph if it's possible because the Commission is going to be collecting all the photographs that have given to us in this period of our work which depicts the pain that we have gone through in this country.  We would like to have that preserved somehow for the next generations to look at our history and see what has happened.  If it's possible for you to do that we will be prepared to pay for getting a photograph made out of this one.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-09

UNKNOWN: No not at all.

BONGANI FINCA: Thembakazi, I will thank you together with those that are going to give their evidence just now.   Please step down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

BONGANI FINCA: We will now call Bernice Whitfield.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

BONGANI FINCA: Welcome Bernice Whitfield Tiny Maya will raise a few questions to you with regard to your statement.

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Before we start I need some assistance with this blind as I'm not able to see her properly.  I need to have this moved aside  thank you.  Good morning Mrs Whitfield I see that the testimony that you're going to give this morning is about your husband Deric John Whitfield, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

MS MAYA: According to the statement in front of us your husband was only forty two years old when he was killed in the shooting that took place at High Gate Hotel, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That's right.

MS MAYA: I want to give you an opportunity to present your testimony uninterrupted and then maybe I will come back to ask you a few question just to clarify things that may not be clear.  You can continue.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-11

ADV SANDI: Lastly, Mr Engelani, are you receiving any medical treatment?

MANDLA ENGELANI: Yes, I am.

ADV SANDI: What is that treatment for?

MANDLA ENGELANI: I am being treated for me left leg and I was also injured in my head and I am using pills, Fineton pills.

ADV SANDI: Using these pills for your head injuries?

MANDLA ENGELANI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Who is your doctor?

MANDLA ENGELANI: Is it Dr Akwilla here in Cecilia Makiwane Hospital.

ADV SANDI: Is there any other medical treatment you receive except the one you have just mentioned?

MANDLA ENGELANI: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Engelani.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Engelani, we thank you for coming before the Commission to give us your story.  We will try and investigate this matter and get some clarity on certain issues which are not clear now.  If we want more information from you our Investigating Unit will visit you to get more information, but for now you may go back to your seat.  We thank you.

MANDLA ENGELANI: Thank you Sir.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-11

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nomakhosazana, I have one question for you.  Who took Geoff Wabena from the scene of the incident to hospital?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: I do not remember Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any other people who were there when your husband was shot?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: Yes, there were a lot of people.  Mlulami Kova is one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any other names you remember except Mlulami Kova?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: Majajam Dingie was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have any idea who shot your husband?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: They said that they did not see this person.  He covered his face.

JUNE CRICHTON: One question.

CHAIRPERSON: June Crichton.

JUNE CRICHTON: Ms Mavubengwana, I just want to ask you one question.  I see from your statement that Geoff was involved in the establishment of a youth organisation.  Now, that was not the only youth organisation at that time was it?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: There was a youth organisation at that time.

JUNE CRICHTON: Were there other youth organisations, different ones?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: Yes, there were other youth organisations.

JUNE CRICHTON: From some reading that I did I understand that there was conflict between these organisations.  Is that correct?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: Yes, that is correct.

JUNE CRICHTON: So my question to you is do you feel that there might have been some kind of revenge attack on your husband?

NOMAKHOSAZANA MAVUBENGWANA: I do not really know what happened.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you very much for your answers.  Thank your Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nomakhosazana, you have brought a very sad story to the Commission of the way Geoff Wabena was killed.  Are you finished?  You have told us how your husband was killed.  A lot of people remember Geoff as a busy person who was working very hard.  That the way he died and things that were said after his death.  I think these caused a wound in you and your family.  I think the Commission has to make a request to those people who were close to Geoff to come forward.  As you have already said, if he did something to the organisation he was working for and if a decision was taken to kill him that must be known.  If there was conflict we have to know, that if this was done by the police the truth has to come out.  People are saying different things about Geoff.  As a result of that we do not know whether he was a leader to be respected in Mdantsane or he was killed because he have done something wrong.  We would like that to be clarified and we have seen that this affected you very, this affected you.  We would like all the people who have a knowledge about this to come forward so that we can find out the truth.  Thank you for coming forward, for having the strength to tell us this sad story and we hope that people will come forward so that we can get some answers concerning this matter.  Thank you Nomakhosazana.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: We will call Priscilla.  Priscilla, I have forgotten your surname.

MS MAXONGO: I am Maxongo, Maxongo.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you Priscilla.  Thank you for coming here and give us 
few words about the struggle of women in this region.  We could not get anyone, 
because we knew, we know that you have played a leading role in that struggle.  I will 
now hand over to you to give us your statement.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, because we did not get a statement we did not know 
that you would mention peoples' names.  It is my job to warn you that this is not 
according to our procedures.

MS MAXONGO: Reverend, people were beaten up.  It was painful.  Women cried 
out, they screamed, but there was no mercy.  You would think that when a woman 
cries out, praying, mercy would be found.  We prayed, but got no mercy.  I was also 
beaten up Mr Chairperson.  I was beaten up such that I had a terrible wound on my 
head that I was temporarily blind.  The women stood strong.  The car I was driving 
was packed with women.  When we were next to Elwoody with women bleeding, the 
traffic cop stopped my car.  The traffic cops stopped our car.  They said that I did not 
have a licence.  I told them I had a learner's licence.  They said that I could not do that. 
 I told them that we were bleeding, injured.  They refused.  We got out as women, 
pushed them out of the way and got back to the car and we told them that they would 
get us at the hospital.  As women we were very oppressed.  Our rights were violated, 
but we got to the hospital.  
 Mr Chairperson, I said that I was not going to be long.  I just wanted to reveal 
that as women we contributed to the struggle.  I want to request the Committee, 
however, that, well it is going to take a report before the President, especially in 
connection with the bus boycott victims, something should be done for the people.  
People's families, children belonging to the victims.  There should be some form of 
fund to educate, to pay for their education.  We would appreciate that peoples' bodies 
be exhumed and people be given their full rights to bury their own people that 
disappeared.  Children that were injured, most of them were not able to continue with 
their education.  These are the battles of COSAS.  They should be, people should 
endeavour to help these people.  
 I went to the Border Training Centre and found out that if the Government 
would help certain organisations and women so that people could be trained.  There 
are knitting machines, sewing machines and there are other ways to help people 
especially with their skills so that people can forgive and people can let go of the 
bitterness they feel towards Sebe's regime.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Priscilla.  We know that you could continue the whole 
day.

MS MAXONGO: It is exactly so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You speak as a woman who did not read about the womens 
struggle in the newspapers, but who lived it.  You were in an out of detention cells 
quite a number of times during the struggle for liberation.  Your requests before the 
Commission that womens' projects be looked at closely and also thanking, in a way, a 
token thanking them for their contribution to the struggle.  Thank you Priscilla.  We 
need a copy of your statement so that we have it in our record, because I do not think 
you read everything that you wrote.  Thank you.  You may step down.

MS MAXONGO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
1

MS MAXONGO: MDANTSANE HEARING TRC/
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-11

ADV SANDI: You may proceed and do so.  Thank you.

CHRISTIAN PETER MEYER: Thank you Commissioner.  The question I would like to ask is why were these people not tried in South Africa, all the members that were involved in the hit squad activities.  I understand that Eugene de Kock was tried for other atrocities in Pretoria and then we have not noticed that the perpetrators had shown any remorse for what they did during those raids, the raid in Maseru and, furthermore, honourable Commissioners, I would like to know if it is by any means possible for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to establish whether there is an extradition agreement with Lesotho and find out whether this, these people can stand trial in Lesotho for what they did.  They, according to my opinion, they completely disregarded Lesotho as a Sovereign State and they grossly violated the human rights of that country.  I thank you Commissioners.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Meyer.  You have prepared a very detailed and thought provoking submission.  I have got no questions to ask you.  Maybe my colleagues would like to ask you some questions for clarity in regard to one point or another.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer, thank you very much for appearing before the Commission today and for taking our eyes and our minds back to this event that struck the whole world, really.  You have related the story again with dignity and have given us all the details and you have raised at the end of your statement very difficult questions which the Commission must try and address.  I have been particularly touched by your last paragraph where you say that you are not being driven by vengeance and a desire for revenge, but you are gladdened to coming before the Commission, because you have got this quest for real reconciliation, which real reconciliation can come out with full disclosure of the truth.  You have touched us and I suppose that all who have listened to you this morning are going to be equally, are being equally touched by the spirit in which you have made your submission.  I do not know whether we will be able to find out the whole truth, but at least you have challenged us and those who come before the Amnesty Committee on these matters will no doubt have to face the points that you have raised here and they have to take them into consideration when they come before the Commission.  Thank you very much Mr Meyer and thank you for the spirit in which you have made your submission.  Thanks.

CHRISTIAN PETER MEYER: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore you are going to speak on her behalf as you know the root of the problem?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: According to this statement you are going to talk about what happened to Spongile on the 11th of February 1990, a day that I think we all know what happened.

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: That is when Mandela was released.  There was toy-toy everywhere, celebrations throughout Mdantsane.  Spongile was toy-toying as well.  Late one, that afternoon somebody came back, somebody who had left with Spongile came back saying that Spongile had been shot and she is in hospital.  We left with Spongile's parents to the hospital, Cecilia Makiwane.  We got there.  Indeed, Spongile could not speak.  She stayed in hospital for about a month.  After having been discharged we realised that she had not fully recovered.  There had been a strike at the hospital.  Therefore, patients were discharged to go home.  Her parents then decided that they would take her to private doctors.

CHAIRPERSON: How was she health-wise when, after she had been discharged?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: She was still ill.  The bullet is still in her head.  The doctors said they could not remove it, because it is in the brain.  Spongile again started having epileptic fits time and again.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell us how old Spongile was, what Spongile was doing in 1990 when she got injured?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: She was at school.  I think she was 18 years of age.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she able to go back to school?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: She did go back.  However, she could not cope.  Therefore, she discontinued her studies.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there requests before the Commission on behalf of Spongile?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: Yes.  First of all Spongile's parents requests that Spongile gets some form of grant and if Spongile could go to a, some form of technikon, a skills.  Also if the doctors could examine her head and also see if they can remove this bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?  Maybe she would like to add something.

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I wonder if there are questions from the co-panellists.  Reverend Finca has a question.

BONGANI FINCA: Madam Chair, how is Loliwe related to Spongile?  Are they related?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: No, she is my neighbour.  We are like sisters.  We got to NU14 together and we just take each other as siblings.

BONGANI FINCA: Are Spongile's parents alive?

NOSIPHO LOLIWE: Yes, they are.  They are at work.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Loliwe and Spongile, thank you.  Spongile, we empathise with you especially because your childhood was taken from you.  You lost your education and lost so much of your live, because if you walk around with a bullet in your head nobody knows what that means and how much it impacts your life.  We have, we know the requests and we will take them forward.  You may step down.