Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

UNKNOWN: Mr Menera it does not matter who or how many people took the decision, I'm asking you who took the decision and where?  It does not matter in what manner the decision was taken.

N JACK MENERA: Let me put it this way.  Nobody took this decision but as the SDU, in Brandfort we came together and we agreed because of the situation at that time, we agreed, nobody specifically who said to us as the ANC Youth League, go and commit this act to Phelane.  No as the ANC in Brandfort we took that decision.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Commissioner may I try to be of assistance in this aspect?

UNKNOWN: No I want to clear up something with him first. Are you saying the ANC took the decision or are you saying the SDU took the decision, or are you the one who took this decision?

N JACK MENERA: The SDU reached that conclusion that these people have to be killed because they were also killing us.

UNKNOWN: Tell us about that day when the decision was taken, tell us about that meeting. Mr Menera this was an important decision to kill people. We want to know about that, we want to know about the circumstances under which the decision to kill people was taken? We can't just gloss over it and rush to talk about the attack and the like, we want to know about who took the decision and under what circumstances.

N JACK MENERA: Let me put it this way, I have explained earlier on the activities of this gangster in the township and to our comrades.  At the time of taking this decision, everybody who was there knew very well what was happening in Brandfort and they were in good terms with the situation in Brandfort.  Now there was nobody to stand in front of this.  The emotions were very high.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I try and assist you? My colleague here repeatedly asked you where was this decision taken and by whom, now tell us, did you gather at a house, did you gather in the bush, where was this decision taken, at which place? At your house or where?

N JACK MENERA: We were at Mandela Square squatter camp, that is where we came together and discussed the issue of eradicating these people.

UNKNOWN: Who was with you when the issue of eradicating these people was discussed?

N JACK MENERA: Patrick Maloyisani, Nicholas Mayani, Ou Bench, I am giving you their nick names, I don't have their proper names, I am sorry, the Commission will forgive me for that. And Christian Bosman.  The five names that I have mentioned I have indicated before that we were the SDU.  Now within the Self Defence Unit, we elected these five people according to their activities, they were known in the community that these people can come together and cooperate and work underground. There were very important things that we did not have time to take to the community.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menera may I interrupt you? You must now tell us that at the meeting a decision was taken to eliminate or eradicate these people as you say. Now who are these people?

N JACK MENERA: Are you referring to the people we are supposed to eradicate?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

N JACK MENERA: I indicated that it was Mr Morgan Phelane, Susan Phelane, Edward Phelane, Rabana Mudsi, I told you that he has since died, I think is in 1985 and a certain Mr Buda, he is present among us here.  Now the names that I have mentioned were the people who were supposed to be removed. It was realised that if we can remove them, the ANC will be in a position to run smoothly in the township.

ADV DE JAGER: Can we then, your answer is the decision was taken at Mandela Square? And the decision was taken by five people.

N JACK MENERA: Let me put it this way,

ADV DE JAGER: No step by step please, then I could follow you too. And the five people were Patrick, Nicholas, Ou Bench, Christian Bosman, or is Christian Bosman one man?

N JACK MENERA: It's one person.

ADV DE JAGER: You've got four names and the fifth was yourself?

N JACK MENERA: Yes I was the fifth one.

ADV DE JAGER: This meeting, it wasn't a public meeting.  You were on the ground section but you gather as an underground section on Mandela Square.

N JACK MENERA: I have told the Commission that these five people were called an underground structure. In other words, everything that they were doing was never taken to the community to be discussed. To discuss anything with the members of the community. It was a risk because Mr Phelane would ultimately receive the news before actions are taken now.  Every decision that was taken about the attacks on the policemen and everybody, was discussed at an underground structure.

UNKNOWN: And you five, were you members of the self-defence unit?

N JACK MENERA: All of us Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now is it correct that it was believed that if Mr Morgan and Mrs Susan Phelane and their son Edward Phelane were killed, the ANC would make progress because of the activities you, because they were believed to be connected to the activities you have referred to earlier on.

N JACK MENERA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Was Buda a councillor?

N JACK MENERA: No Buda is one member of the gang. He was a giant and Phelane trusted him because anything that they were doing, Rabana Mudsi and Buda were at the forefront of Mr Phelane's gang.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Menera, when was the decision taken?  Now according to the indictment the incident occurred on the 14th of July 1991, was a decision to kill these people taken on the 14th of July or was it taken on an earlier date?

N JACK MENERA: Let me elaborate a little on your question Sir.

UNKNOWN: Sorry I don't think that your answer to this question needs elaborating.  We will understand your answer.  The question is, was the decision taken on that day or before? Surely we will understand your answer without elaboration.

N JACK MENERA: We took the decision on the 12th, it was a Friday.

UNKNOWN: You see we have no problem in understanding that you took a decision on the 12th without elaboration.

N JACK MENERA: I wanted to explain something about the question that Mr Memani asked, that the issue of being killed, since the years that Mr Phelane was involved in the council and form a gag, we've been discussing all these uncertainties, but we took the decision to kill on the 12th of July. We said we are now tired of these people. We wanted to show them that the ANC is alive and it will shut their mouths. That is when we took the decision of killing them.

UNKNOWN: Now once the decision was taken on the 12th of July, what happened?

N JACK MENERA: We left Mandela Square on Sunday on the 14th of July and we went to the shop, a place where we knew that whether we like it or not, we will find Phelane and his wife in that shop.  We went into the shop.

ADV DE JAGER: You said, we left, we went into the shop, who are we? Who went with you?

N JACK MENERA: The people that I've mentioned that they were present, these are the people who took the decision. We left Mandela Square, all of us.

ADV DE JAGER: The five of you?