Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MS PATEL: So he wasn't told what your intentions were when you got there?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: We didn't have that opportunity to tell him that.

MS PATEL: Okay.  And you were also convicted of housebreaking with the intent to commit a crime unknown to the state, and this housebreaking relates to Mr Senti, Mr Senti's place.  You didn't intend to commit a crime when you went to Mr Senti's house, not so?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is so.

MS PATEL: You didn't intend to break into his house either?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Did you see anything wrong in the manner in which you went about trying to elicit Mr Senti's assistance in going to Mr Pretorius' house, or in, sorry, in him showing you the way to Mr Pretorius' house?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do see something wrong, but it was a mistake because our intentions, we just wanted to ask him to show us the direction to the house or to show us the house.

MS PATEL: And did you break the window to Mr Senti's house?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember any window being broken, but there were people who were knocking at the window.

MS PATEL: Okay.  So in terms of the conviction of malicious damage to property, which relates to Mr Senti's window, you deny any knowledge of that?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Damaging Mr Senti's property?

MS PATEL: His window specifically.

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I can't say the window was not broken or it was broken because I was standing at the door, next to the door, I was not amongst the people who were standing next to the window.

MS PATEL: And do you like your fellow applicants have already testified, state that Mrs Senti or Mr Senti's wife at the time, had come willingly with you to show you, to point out Mr Pretorius' house?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: We asked her to accompany us or to show us the house.

MS PATEL: And in terms of the attempted murder of Mr Pretorius, do you say that was a mistake as well?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, according to your decision because we went there with the intention of getting weapons from Mr Pretorius and telling, and we went there to tell him to leave that area.  And this incident about Joe Senti, he was injured and that was a mistake, so we went to Mr Pretorius, we wanted him to help Mr Joe Senti, to take him to the hospital.

MS PATEL: If you wanted him to help you, why did one of your colleagues shoot him and then you proceeded, as you've stated very clearly in your evidence-in-chief
"I hit him three times with a stick"

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: The reason for that is that we were trying to intimidate him, or to threaten him because we wanted him to give us weapons because Mr Pretorius was already shot and we then decided to ask for weapons or to want weapons from him and after he had given us the weapons we would have told him to leave that place and we would then force him to take Mr Joe Senti to the Hospital.

MS PATEL: You'd force a man who has already been shot, who is then subsequently assaulted by you and other members of your group, you'd then force that man to take Mr Senti to the hospital, is that what you want us to believe?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: He didn't seem like he was injured because he was walking on his two feet.  When we told him to stand up he did so and he walked.

MS PATEL: You know, Mr Nokawusana your version is so improbable.  I want to put it to you, Sir, that given the manner in which these incidents were carried out and given clearly that there was an instruction that no-one was to be killed, that you didn't act with a political motive, that your deeds that you have been found guilty of and some of which you have chosen to deny, were purely criminal.

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I don't know it like that.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Questions from the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Nokawusana, the three customers you were talking about, what happened to those people?  When you left the shop were they there, what happened?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I didn't notice whether they went out or what because we were busy there and Mrs Clackers was involved in this scuffle with Jimmy and there were these dogs that wanted to bite us, so that confused me, I didn't see what happened.  And the person that was said to be coming out of the house, coming towards the shop, that led us to run away, so I didn't take not, I didn't notice what happened to those people, I didn't even see whether they were still in the shop or not.

ADV SANDI: When you ran away, where was Mrs Clackers, was she lying on the ground in the shop, what was she doing when you left her?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: She was lying down.  She was on the floor.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly in the shop?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Next to the counter, towards the door.

ADV SANDI: You've made mention of a scuffle between Mrs Clackers and your brother Jimmy and you say
"They both moved towards the door"
Who was in front of the other, was it Jimmy in front of Mrs Clackers or was Mrs Clackers in front of Jimmy as they were moving towards the door?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Jimmy was next to the wall, the wall that was next to the door because he jumped on her at the time when she was reaching for something under the counter and there was this scuffle and they went towards the door and then she fell down and Nzuyanda was hitting the dogs at the time and he chased the dogs out of the door.  And he saw this young man that was coming out of the house, the white young man.
	He came back to us and he told us that there was this person who was coming out of the farmhouse and this person went back to the house, so we must run away, maybe this person was going to get the firearm to shoot at us.  We then ran away.  I didn't notice or see what Mrs Clackers did after that.

ADV SANDI: Are you saying Jimmy tackled Mrs Clackers and pushed her down onto the ground?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: When they were moving towards the door, did it appear to you that anyone of them was pushing the other?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: They were both involved in this scuffle, they were holding each other in this scuffle.

ADV SANDI: You have said you were some sort of an eye keeper, watching out for the police outside, were you able to pay 100% concentration to what was happening inside?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: When I last saw what happened I was still inside the shop.  That is when I last saw what was happening inside, but when I was at the door I didn't see everything that was happening inside the shop.

ADV SANDI: Why would you not see everything that was happening inside?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: They were not on my view as I was standing next to the door.  I couldn't see them.

ADV SANDI: Should we understand you to say that part of your concentration was directed to the possibility of the police appearing on the scene?  Do I understand you correctly in that way?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Kincaid.

MR KINCADE: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, does that conclude the evidence of Mr Nokawusana?

MR KINCAID: It does indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Nokawusana, you can stand down, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Clarke, you had indicated that your client wishes to testify.

MR CLARKE: That is so, Mr Chairman, and following our discussion earlier this morning in the presence of the various legal representatives, the request was that she could give her evidence now for the reason that she's got compelling business to keep her in Stutterheim tomorrow morning.  If the Committee so pleases to work late this evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, we had lost a bit of time in the course of the day.  You want to call your - and I assume that the other parties are in agreement, they're not objecting to ...