Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MR LENGANE: In the whole incident including the discussion around the identifying of him up to the time when he was killed.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: On that particular day I agreed with my comrades that we had to assassinate him, as they have already mentioned what kind of person he was.  That is when we went to Beirut to assassinate him.

MR LENGANE: You have heard the evidence of the other three gentlemen describing how Brigadier Molope was perceived by the community, do you have anything to add to that?  Do you disagree with anything that was said?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I agree fully with what my comrades have said.

MR LENGANE: Right back to that Saturday, you say Mr Masango asked you to observe the place, is that correct? Whilst he had gone to seek the green light from Mr Masina?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: On that particular day we all went to Mr Masina, myself, Mr Masango and Justice Bizana.  I kept the place observed on our way back.  Mr Masango dropped me there at Beirut to observe all the activities around that area.  I might have observed that place an hour or more, it was in the evening.

MR LENGANE: And then Mr Masango returned to you?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, he came back in the company of Mr Bizana.  They were having two AK rifles, mine and Mr Bizana.

MR LENGANE: Please tell us what happened then Mr Makhura.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: When they arrived I gave them a short briefing about the situation and that nothing has changed since they left and the car was parked on the other side of the house where Mr Molope was, it might be two houses away which might be the back opposite house of where Mr Molope was.
	Myself and Justice Bizana whom we used to call Mandla Shezi, we rounded around into Mr Molope's house.  We entered via the back door.  When we got there I stood in the corner of the house and Justice knocked.  I think there were three doors, if not more.  He knocked first but there was no response, but there was one door that was open.
	At that time I heard movements in an opposite door.  I told Justice about these movements and a lady arrived and opened the door.  Before Justice could introduce himself ...[intervention]

MR LENGANE: Take your time Mr Makhura.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Okay.  When I told Justice about the movement in the other room he decided to knock at that room and when he did that a lady opened the door.  Before he could introduce himself this lady could see his AK rifle and therefore she tried to close the door and when she did that Justice pushed that door open and I assisted him.
	I don't know what happened to that lady but it seems she let go of the door and at that time Mr Molope appeared.  It seemed that he responded to all the sounds he heard.  Because Justice was directly opposite the door he started shooting and Mr Molope came towards us running.  Justice was already going back at that time but, and then I started shooting as well.

MR LENGANE: Sorry to interrupt you, ...[indistinct] Mr Molope.  You say he came into your line of fire and you opened fire at that point, correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: As soon as he came out of the door Justice had already started firing because he spotted him first and as he was going out of the door I shot from the outside and he fell there.

MR LENGANE: With what were you armed, Justice and you?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: We were armed with AK rifles and grenades.

MR LENGANE: And now Mr Molope came out and he got into your line of fire and you started firing with your AK47, please continue.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: As he appeared at the door Justice went back and he saw him coming and as he appeared I shot him from the side on his left arm and having fell down I continued shooting him on the ground.  Justice called me that we should get away and we did exactly that.

MR LENGANE: Mr Makhura, do you know where Justice is now?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: We don't know what happened to Justice.

MR LENGANE: Mr Makhura, was there any personal gain of a financial or any other kind for you for having committed this act?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I never got any financial gain.  The police asked me as to whether Mrs Molope hired me to commit this murder but I told them I didn't, I never got any personal or financial gain out of this.

MR LENGANE: Were you charged for the killing of Mr Molope?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Having arrested us we gave a statement and we were brought to Boputhatswana but when we got to court Molope's case did not appear on the charge sheet but when we enquired why they said that Boputhatswana is a different country: "Once we're done with you we will hand you over to Boputhatswana".

MR LENGANE: One moment please.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if I could just ask one question about form or maybe Mr Lengane is going to be doing it, about the signing of the form.
	Mr Makhura, you say then Brigadier Molope fell in front of you and you continued to fire whilst he was on the ground, correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MR LENGANE: Do you know how many shots you fired?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I don't recall how many times I shot him, how many bullets I used.

MR LENGANE: More than once?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, it was more than one bullet.

MR LENGANE: Just before I forget this technical question.  There is a form, an application form that was submitted to the Committee in terms of which you were applying for amnesty, did you sign that form Mr Makhura?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, I signed it Sir.

MR LENGANE: Mr Makhura, I just want to take you back a little bit to the time when you came to hear about the order, the instructions to kill Brigadier Molope on that particular day, what instructions exactly did you hear Mr Masina to have given, what orders did you hear Mr Masina to have issued in respect of this act?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: He gave us the go-ahead to eliminate Mr Molope and when we got there Ting Ting notified that there was a lady and child inside that house and we must ensure that these two people don't sustain any injuries or are hurt.

MR LENGANE: I think that will be all, no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LENGANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, if we adjourn now, what time can we start tomorrow morning?  I would prefer to start earlier than before because I don't want to pick this up as a part-heard matter.  And the way things went this morning with the stop and start, I'm hesitant to take any risks in that regard, I'd rather start earlier.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, perhaps what I'm going to say, I may sound selfish to my learned friends who come from far but I would suggest 9 o'clock would be appropriate Mr Chairman or even earlier than that.  ...[inaudible] all the people involved herein except my two learned friends are local.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock would be suitable to us.
	Mr van den Berg, Mr Lengane, could you make it?

MR VAN DEN BERG: We were here at 9 o'clock this morning so that would be fine.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think 9 o'clock would be sufficient and then Mr Mpshe and Mr Molope will be given an opportunity to put questions to this witness and then Mr Mpshe will also then decide whether any further witnesses are going to be called.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We've now come to the end of the hearing for today.  We will be adjourning until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning at this venue, when the evidence of Mr Makhura will continue.  We will see you then tomorrow, if you could be here at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS