Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I already mentioned that Ntjebe Ndondolo issued out an order which was given to him by Manyala.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he announce that at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, he did not announce that in the meeting, he told us as members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened at the meeting, what was the meeting about?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said the vice chairperson addressed the meeting, the vice chairperson of the - the zonal vice chairperson.  The issue on the table was the situation around Moleleki and the death of the two people.  He was addressing the meeting as the leader, he did not take out such an order at the meeting.   Because you know, if people are angry you can't control their emotions, they just decided that these people must be killed and he called us aside as members of the SDU.  It is there where he took out an order.

MR MOTATA: What interests me Mr Motlokwa, you were present at this meeting where the community was outraged by the happenings of the previous night, that is the deaths of Bulelwa and Blanko.  Were you present in that meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was present Sir.

MR MOTATA: This meeting as we know by now was addressed by Mr Machinini, would I still be correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MOTATA: Now, whilst the community is there and Machinini is addressing the community, you being present with some members of the SDU's, did the community itself in your presence take a decision about the fate of the nine?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The community was talking that they should be killed.  No decision was taken by the community or the chairperson in agreement with the community that they should be killed, people were just saying it out of their own feelings.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone in your presence at that meeting indicate to the meeting that these persons had already been caught and that they are being held at a shack in block F?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The members of the SDU knew that these people were in a shack.  Even members of the community knew because they saw them before.

MR MADASA: Right, order issued, who carried it out?

MR MALAN: Just a second on this question.
	You say, if I hear you correctly, you say: "The members of the community knew about all nine because they saw them before", didn't you earlier say that only three people were caught at the time of that meeting which Mr Machinini addressed?  You had only the three and others you rounded up later, so this community, what was their knowledge?  Who did they say were to be killed, did they say that these nine by names must be killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Or did they just say that the people who had killed Blanko and Bulelwa must be killed whoever they are?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Can I clarify this issue Sir?  Three people were caught during the meeting and Manyala came with other people in a kombi and these are the people who went to Manyala to report.  And the community was already gathered at the meeting but first three people were caught.
	We caught two at three in the morning and then we caught one at about 5 o'clock, then the rest were - the others were arrested at Manyala's place.  We went out to fetch the others.  Now the members of the community even helped with catching some of these people.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage was that?  Let's get this thing straight.  The first three, the first two were caught shortly after the shootout between the ANC and yourself.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there was a third one who was caught later.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  And then probable ANC Youth League members ran to Manyala's place to report that they were being harassed by the SDU members.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But Manyala had been told that that is not true, there'd been a fight that killed Blanko?  He was aware of that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Manyala was not aware, Ntjebe went to report for Manyala.

CHAIRPERSON: And he found those ...[intervention]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He found them there.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were there, were there three?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know but we were told that many of them escaped.

CHAIRPERSON: Many escaped but some were caught?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how many were caught?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I cannot give a number Sir, I do not  remember how many were caught.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, these were the ones who were put in a kombi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Those are the ones who were put in a kombi Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Were they taken straight to a shack in block F?  Did the kombi take them straight to block F?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The kombi drove with them to the community and they were then taken to the others.

CHAIRPERSON: The were taken to the meeting first?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.  I said Manyala and them arrived with them at Blanko's house where the community was gathered.  After they were seen by the community they were taken to the others.

CHAIRPERSON: So the meeting was at Blanko's house.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the community must have seen them there, the three?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then they were taken to block F?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We now have about six, six persons are caught now.  What about the remaining three, when were these caught?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I have already said that they themselves identified each other.  In a meeting they said: "You were there, you were there".  There was one of them who was mistakenly identified and when he was assaulted they confessed that he was not there but the three was included in the group of nine.  Those who were mistakenly assaulted were released.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Yes?

MR MADASA: This meeting at Blanko's place, was it in the yard of Blanko or outside the yard in the street?  How was it formed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was inside Blanko's yard.

MR MADASA: Inside only, were there no other people outside the yard?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The yard was fully occupied and some were standing outside his yard because at that time the police had arrived to take the corpse.

MR MADASA: When the police arrived to take the corpse, where were these victims?  Were they already taken to the shack or not?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were in the shack Sir.

MR MADASA: Then you told the police about them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, we did not tell them.

MR MADASA: Why not?  You could have told the police to arrest them.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I already said that we were not cooperating with the police.

MR MADASA: What was done with the people who were in the shack?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe issued out an order that they must be killed.  We took them out of the shack, we took them to the open veld.

MR MADASA: Who was present when they were taken to the open veld?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was there Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What reason was given for their killing?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The SDU was to defend the community and they were harassing the community, that was the reason.  An order is an order, it was difficult even on my side to kill them.  I did not have any option, I was just ordered and I know that their families are bereaved but there was nothing I could do really.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that, we understand that. What I want to know is, when Ntjebe issued an order that these nine persons had to be killed, what reason did he advance for their killing?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He said they should be killed because they killed Bulelwa, they killed Blanko.

MR MADASA: The killing of Blanko especially, who was the chair of the SDU, how did you understand that to mean?  How did you perceive this killing as SDU's?