Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, if I can just ask - if I can ask you to slow down for just a while.  When you and Mr Shoke were asked to check the area around Ellis Park, what precisely did you do when checking out the area around Ellis Park?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: They requested us to check close to the gate where the car could be parked on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: What car - did you know?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We didn't have a car on that day but there was something that was going to be transported in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: What was to be transported?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: He said the bomb will be transported by the car.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi were you told by anybody why a bomb should be planted close to a rugby stadium?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude told us that our sisters and brothers were dying in the township and he said this struggle must also be directed to the whites.  That is the explanation that he gave us.

MR LANDMAN: Did he say anything about whether whites at that stage should be killed in the car bomb blast or not?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: He said we should send a message to the whites that we can also do a bad thing of killing them if we want to but he didn't specifically mention that the whites must be killed, he said nobody should die.

MR LANDMAN: Could you possibly elaborate on that?  How would it happen that whites would not die if a bomb was planted outside a rugby stadium?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: He said he would try by all means to set the bomb so that the people while still in the stadium can hear it and they will intervene and talk to their leaders warning them against the anger of the blacks.

MR LANDMAN: Now you've said that you met again on Friday, is that correct?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who did you meet?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was myself, Aggie, Dube and Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: After you had met where did you go to?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: After we've met we went to Orlando.  We went with them to Ellis Park, after Ellis Park we went to Orlando.

MR LANDMAN: What did you do at Ellis Park on the Friday?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We were going to show them what they requested us to do, the parking and the structure of the stadium.

MR LANDMAN: Did you identify any particular place where the car could be parked?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Myself and Aggie Shoke did not identify any place but while all of us were still there, there was an old house in a short street.  We spent quite some time there and he came with an idea, he said where we are presently is a quiet area, there are not many cars passing, this is the right place to set a bomb.

MR LANDMAN: Is that the same street where the bomb was in fact planted the next day?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who said that this was a quiet street?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, why would it have been important for Dumakude to find a quiet street?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was a street towards the entrance of Ellis Park.  He must have realised that there were not many cars passing in that street.  The cars were passing in other directions but not in the same street that we were.  It was not a busy street and there were no people moving around.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say a little earlier in your evidence that you were asked to check close to the gate where the car was to be parked?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I said in front of the gate, I didn't say close to the gate.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, why did you have to look for a place near the entrance to Ellis Park?

CHAIRPERSON: It was in front of the gate they had to look.

MR LANDMAN: Why did you have to look for a place close to the gate?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That was according to his plan, I do not know the reason why.

MR LANDMAN: Were you in a position to question his plan?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We were taught not to question the orders from your commander.

MR LANDMAN: Now having been to Ellis Park on the Friday in the company of Dumakude and others, did you meet again on Saturday morning, the day of the blast?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, we met.

MR LANDMAN: And what did you do in connection with the planning of that bomb that particular Saturday?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We were driving in a Kombi, it was myself, Aggie, Dumakude and Dube and we drove to town, we bought two big gas cylinders, we bought a battery, we bought a clock watch.  We went back to Diepkloof Zone 5, that is were we put the bomb - we placed the bomb in the boot of the car.

MR LANDMAN: Who assembled the bomb, who physically assembled it in the boot of the car?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The person who assembled the bomb was Dumakude.

MR LANDMAN: Did anybody assist him?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I was close to him.

MR LANDMAN: Were any members of your unit explosive experts?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude was.

MR LANDMAN: What did Aggie Shoke and Dube do at the time that Dumakude was assembling the bomb in the boot of the car?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: They were behind us, keeping an eye so that nobody sees us.

MR LANDMAN: Now by what time had the bomb been assembled?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was just about after twelve to one o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: What were the arrangements in regard to the time that the bomb was to explode?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Commander Dumakude told us that the bomb would explode at five o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude.  We were together.

CHAIRPERSON: You never mentioned him so far as being there?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I understand that that is the case.  Dumakude is the person who assembled the bomb in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR LANDMAN: Thank you.  At what point did Dumakude tell you that the bomb was to explode at five o'clock?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: As he was busy attacking the wires to the clock watch he said the bomb would explode at five o'clock.

MR LANDMAN: And where were you at that time, were you still in Diepkloof or were you at the stadium?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We were still in Diepkloof.

MR LANDMAN: What was the significance of five o'clock?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: According to his plan he wanted the bomb to explode before everybody dispersed from the stadium.

MR LANDMAN: And why did he choose five o'clock?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I never enquired about that.

MR LANDMAN: Now was the vehicle laden with the bomb later driven to Ellis Park?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: After the bomb was placed in the boot we spend some time in Zone 5.  Towards the afternoon I got into the car with him, that is myself and Dumakude, into the car that had a bomb in the boot and Aggie and Dube drove in a Kombi.  We drove on M2, we took an off-ramp to Harrow Road.  After crossing the train bridge we stopped and we talked to Aggie and them as to where we would meet after dropping the car at Ellis Park.  They said we should - we will get them at Hillbrow.  I left with Dumakude, we parked the car next to a house in the street that was identified by Dumakude.  There was a bus.  He parked the car behind the bus, he closed the doors and he left.  We went back to Checkers.  Just before we got into the Kombi at Checkers we hear a sound from the bomb and we drove off to Diepkloof.

MR LANDMAN: When Dumakude parked the car in the street were you in the car?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Sir, when he turned into that short street facing Ellis Park, I got out of the car at the corner but I could see from where I was.  When he parked the car I was already out of the car.

MR LANDMAN: At what stage would Dumakude have set the timer so that the bomb would go off at a particular time?  Was it at Diepkloof or would it have been after he had parked the car in that small street?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: When we left Diepkloof he disconnected the wires.  He connected them again after parking the car.  He told me that he set the clock for five o'clock, the watch for five o'clock.