Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: This memo says that there was a specialised unit for this proposed clandestine committee when the climate is right for that or when the climate should be created.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Could you expand on that, could you just tell us more about that?  I take it that you were at that meeting you may be remembering something about ....

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No Madam Chair I can't explain about these things.  I was working on grassroots level.  I attended many meetings.  I can't remember a meeting which happened 11 years ago.  When you ask me about unrest situations I could explain those but I can't remember specific meetings.

MR NTSEBEZA: But I mean you were at this meeting, are you suggesting that you were just sitting there because you were itching to go into the field?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes I did attend the meeting Madam Chair but I can't remember what was discussed there.  Many meetings were held and this happened 11 years ago. What was discussed there I can't remember because I attended many meetings in my life.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, but you know what I am saying is we have now a memo by the secretary of that meeting who says that - I just want to know for instance now that you look at this, and you will recall, I mean this was a momentous occasion, it was not just like ordinary times in your "loopbaan", times were very different and there was a specific document that had come you know for your attention.  You held a meeting, all the structures looked at it and it comes up with a recommendation for a specialised operation of a clandestine committee, for instance were you part of a clandestine committee that was going to mount a specialised operation when the climate was right?  What was this, what was this climate and what was it that had to be right about the climate?

ADV LOUW: Sorry, I think the first question is were you part of the clandestine operation?  Perhaps the witness can answer that first.

MR NTSEBEZA: Oh yes.  Were you?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No I was not.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now maybe let's look at the second leg of that section where it says,
"There is already from the Western Cape and the Defence Force are already working in this direction to make the Fathers resist the Comrades".

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: This amounts to it that the South African army assisted the Fathers to resist the Comrades, that the Fathers resisted the Comrades.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now you have indicated that you were in the field most of the time, did you participate in any operation the aim of which was to assist the Fathers against the Comrades?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No. Madam Chair where I found them I talked to them and told them they should not fight.  I even went to KTC in January if that would assist you.  In January 1986 there were Witdoeke in KTC and they resisted the Comrades in KTC.  I even talked to them and told them they should protect their property but they should not kill people.  I don't know if the previous witnesses yesterday or the day before told you that there were Witdoeke in KTC and the Fathers came, resisted the Comrades who necklaced, murdered people, set property alight, I don't know whether they mentioned that yesterday and the day before.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes a lot of things have been mentioned here but we ask you as a person who was placed in authority or a person who had a very important role to play being a commander or somebody in the command structure, riot unit, a very important element in the control of the violent situation at the time.
 Maybe let's concentrate on your field, the area in which you operated.  What was your relationship with Warrant Officer Barnard?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Barnard was the person who drove the vehicle, and we also had an Interpreter Labuschagne who could speak Xhosa.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: I was the commander on the ground.  There were also other policemen involved in other platoons.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now you know that there were two forms of attack.  The first attack was on the satellite camps.  Now what role, if any, did you play in those attacks?  Or let me put the question differently.  Were the police aware from reports that an attack was imminent on those camps?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Madam Chair since January that year there were rumours that the Comrades were going to attack the Witdoeke and the Witdoeke were going to attack the Comrades.  Murders took place in Old Crossroads.  Petrol bombs were thrown, stones were thrown, vehicles were burnt, and fights took place between the various factions.

MR NTSEBEZA: And I would take it that after almost five days of fighting between the 17th and the 21st of May there was a case study for a riot unit like yours as to what should be done effectively to deal with the situation of that nature, is that right?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Please repeat your question.

MR NTSEBEZA: Am I correct in assuming that after the events at the satellite camps between the 17th and the 21st of May 1986 the riot police whose duty I think it is to deal with unrest situations of a riotous nature had at least something to fall on as to what best can be done in a situation like that?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes that is correct Madam Chair.  They put up a fence there but when the first attack took place nothing could prevent them because if they wanted to fight, they fought.

MR NTSEBEZA: No that's not what I am asking.  Because I am simply saying that are you saying that the police and the army were completely unable to do anything at all to have prevented the mayhem between the 17th and the 21st of May?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No there was nothing we could have done, we could only patrol the area.  We went on patrol by foot except when a soldier and a policeman could have been placed in front of every door, that would have prevented the whole situation.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now you were aware that as a consequence of those attacks a court order was obtained on the 26th of May 1996 which interdicted members of the South African Police Force from participating in, assisting in, encouraging, permitting or allowing any unlawful attack upon any person or property residing within or situated within the area known as KTC, are you aware of that court order?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you aware also that that order was actually directing you, on other words the security forces to take all reasonably necessary steps within your powers to prevent any member of the South African Police or of the South African Defence Force or any other person from perpetrating any of the acts mentioned in paragraph 11.1 above, namely participating in, assisting in, encouraging, permitting or allowing any unlawful attack?  You are aware that that order was preventing you in fact from - it was enjoining you to prevent anyone from the police from assisting, or from participating or encouraging or permitting or allowing any unlawful act upon any person or property?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Now that was on the 26th of May.  Now on the 9th, and this has become common cause, on the 9th of June there is evidence that suggests that on the morning of the 9th policemen were seen at meetings with Witdoeke in Crossroads at Khayelitsha where the advance on KTC was discussed.  There were 34 witnesses who were called who testified to that in a court proceeding subsequent to what happened there.   Now what is your attitude towards that evidence?
 I will repeat the evidence.  On the morning of June the 9th policemen were seen at meetings with Witdoeke in Crossroads in Khayelitsha where the advance on KTC was discussed, what is your view?