bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

TIMOTHY SMITH: (Sworn, States)

TIMOTHY SMITH: Now, I understand that you're going to give your evidence in English.  What we've decided to do is to have the translators here translate your evidence from English into Zulu, and put that over the main speakers, so that the main body of the audience here, who are Zulu-speakers, will be able to hear your evidence in Zulu.  So it would help the translators if you spoke fairly slowly so that they are able to follow the English and then translate it into Zulu.

TIMOTHY SMITH: MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

TIMOTHY SMITH: Okay, because we've only just decided to use this method, whereby we are putting the Zulu translation out into the public speakers, the technician has just asked me to give him a few minutes.  He has to rig up another connector cable from here to the public speakers.  So I'm afraid we're going to have to ask you to be patient for a few minutes.

TIMOTHY SMITH: MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

TIMOTHY SMITH:  (Incomplete - through interpreter) ... March/April 1990, and then go on to that period itself.  Thank you.

WITNESS:   I don't know whether you can hear me.  Yes, I can hear you.  I can hear you.  I am a priest at the Roman Catholic Church.  I was stationed at Elandskop.  I was sent at Elandskop from 1983 up to March 1990, between that time.

TIMOTHY SMITH: MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

TIMOTHY SMITH:  (Incomplete) ... hopefully will come out in Zulu over the public speakers, and English through the earphones.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

INTERPRETER: periods before and after that, that there certainly were meetings between senior policemen and members of Inkatha.  For example, Captain Brian Mitchell has given evidence that there was a meeting which took place between himself, Major Terblanche and David Ntombela where the Trust Feeds massacre was planned.  And that evidence has been given before this Commission.  So, in those circumstances does it then come as a surprise that this sort of plan could have taken place?

WITNESS:   I can imagine there were many meetings, many meetings during that period, and I think many things were planned that we don't know about.

INTERPRETER:  The Attorney-General that you mentioned at the time, was that Mr Roberts?

WITNESS:   Yes.

INTERPRETER:  Father Smith, thank you again for speaking to us so frankly.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

INTERPRETER:  And for coming down from Soweto.  Thank you very much.

WITNESS:   Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

SIBONGILE CLARABEL MKHIZE: (Sworn, States)

SIBONGILE CLARABEL MKHIZE:  Mrs Mkhize, where do you live now?

WITNESS:   I reside here in town.

SIBONGILE CLARABEL MKHIZE:  At the time of this incident in 1990 please tell us what you were doing, where you were living?

WITNESS:   In 1990 I was a Xaluza resident since 1984.  During the Seven Day War I was in Xaluza, and I was one of those who were disturbed about the things that were transpiring in the area.  May I go on?  I am disappointed to say we start with the Seven Day War today, and yet this Seven Day War was created by many things that were going on, especially in the community since 1986, when we started to see things changing.  As a person who had a role to play to talk about the Seven Day War I am disappointed to tell you that the things that I will say probably that I did not give on my statement.

SIBONGILE CLARABEL MKHIZE:  If you want to tell us about things which happened before the Seven Day War then - which you think led up to it, then please give that information.  It doesn't matter if it's not in your statement.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: Professor Aitchison, thank you for coming in today to give this initial overview of the Seven Day War.  You have made a document available to the Commission, and I think there are copies which are available for members of the public if they want those copies.  There aren't enough to go round, but I understand you have made a couple of hundred copies.  I am going to let you then talk to the document.  I think it's probably too long to read through, but if you can start by briefly just telling us who you are and giving us your credentials, and explain to us why you believe you have the credentials to give us this overview.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: Please don't distribute the books while the witness is talking.  Please can people take their seats.  Sorry, I apologise for the interruption.  Please continue.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR DLAMINI:  Thank you very much for coming to talk to us today.  We have heard evidence, and you have also heard evidence today, from political observers and politicians, who, because of the positions that they were in were able to give us an overview of the entire event, and their evidence is important, but in fact their evidence is meaningless without evidence from people like yourself, who were directly affected by the violence in that time in 1990.  You made a very valid point, I think, about people who are erecting shacks in areas around Pietermaritzburg more recently, and pointed out that many of these people are still refugees from six years ago, people who still have no permanent place to live, people who have not been able to return to the valleys around KwaShange and Gezabuso.  And if one goes to those areas today one will see that they are deserted, with burnt-out homes and shops.  And I am making this point because one can see that the events of those days in 1990 still have very serious and severe social repercussions even today, six years later, where people who have been uprooted from their homes are still searching for permanent places to live, and we hope we will be hearing evidence later in the week from people who were directly involved with refugees.  But thank you very much again for coming in.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

MR DLAMINI:  So help you God.

WITNESS:   So help me God.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR SINGH: Mr Zondi, we have heard many tragic stories in the months - in the past few months that we have been holding hearings like this, and like so many of these stories yours is a very, very sad one.  Your young son and his aunt had just been shot dead, an unarmed child and a woman shot dead by armed men.  And whilst you were in the process of mourning them, preparing to bury them, your house was attacked and vandalised and looted, and you had to flee with the few possessions that you could fit into your car.  It's difficult to understand - it's difficult for us to understand why and how people can sink to this level of brutality.  You've told us that your wife and yourself are still suffering the aftereffects of this event, but you've nevertheless come here today and you've had the courage to come and repeat that story in front of not only the public, but the television cameras, and we thank you very, very much for having had the courage to do that.  Thank you very much indeed.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR SINGH: Mr Zondi, where do you currently reside?

WITNESS:  I reside at KwaMnyandu.

MR SINGH:  Sorry, could you just repeat that please?

WITNESS:   I reside at KwaMnyandu.

MR SINGH:  No, where do you currently reside at?

WITNESS:   Well, it's a long time.  I think I was born there, and my father was born also there, and my grandfather was born there.

MR SINGH:  All right, so you're telling us how long you live in this place.

WITNESS:   Ja.

MR SINGH:  All right.  You've been called upon to give evidence regarding the Seven Day War.  Can you proceed and tell us your story then regarding the attacks which commenced on the 25th of March or 26th of March 1990.

WITNESS:   I won't commence from this other part, but I want to start differently, because there were police who used to come frequenting my house even before the 25th, and they will come harass me at my place.  And shortly after they leave my house an Inkatha youth will come to harass my kids when I am away at work.  This took place four times.  The first thing I want to say is that the police came with one white policeman, and he said to me, "You see, all the boys have repented, they are no longer UDF.  You are the only one, and your boys, who haven't repented yet.  Now, we do trust and hope that when you repent, especially that you are educated, and your boys are educated as well, all the boys in KwaMnyandu will repent from UDF."  And I knew exactly what that meant.  The second time around they knocked at the window.  Unfortunately the window was not properly closed so they came through the window.  They collected all the toys that belonged to the kids, they took them with, also took us and the kids.  And when we got there, if I am not mistaken it was on a Friday, we were there detained on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and we appeared in front of the Magistrate.  When we got there the police who arrested us were not present.  The case was postponed and we were told to leave and go back home.  When we got home the day came for the court case and we went back, and the police still did not turn up and the Magistrate therefore released us.  Again the police came at night.  Now, on that day there were neighbours, females, who came to our house, because we had a big house.  And I suddenly heard from one of the ladies saying, "There are the police.  I can see the torches."  And I woke up and I also tried to peep through the window.  I could see that they were just approaching and they were nearby now.  So they were approaching the second gate, because I have two gates, and I asked, "Who are you?"  They said, "We are police."  And I asked them, "Why now are you hiding?"  I rushed to the kids.  Before even entering the bedroom, the children's bedroom, I heard a gunshot, and that's the gunshot that left so much blood oozing.  And one of them asked, "Why did you shoot?" and the other said, "No, it's them who shot."  And they took the boy who was shot.

MR SINGH:  Who was shot then?

WITNESS:   Ja.

MR SINGH:  Who?  Who got shot?

WITNESS:   The police that shot I don't know.

MR SINGH:  No, who did they shoot?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   I also thank you very much, and I would like to add that - well, in fact I have been also wondering all the time since this six years being away from our places or from our homes, that there was just a dead silence about what events that happened at KwaMnyandu, KwaShange and Gezabuso, and I also thank you very much that you have just given us this chance to express ourselves.  And I wish to add that my motto, my aim, is peace.  If then the Government would try to help us, or to boost us of what we lost, then we shall be pleased.  And we are willing to have peace with those people, because I seemingly do not see any reason why they had just to attack us having not yet quarrelled with them.  So I would like that, well, of course there should be peace, especially at Mnadi region.

MR SINGH:  Thank you very much, Mr Zondi.  We also hope that the work of this Commission can play some small part in bringing about peace and reconciliation in those areas.

WITNESS:   Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-18

MRS CHOLO: No he wasn't.

MR MALAN: Where was the chief when Maremane was the ANC leader?

MRS CHOLO: We didn't know where the chief was at the time.
These conflicts are the reason we didn't know where the chief was.

MR MALAN: This chief, did he try and tell you why he was being chased?

MRS CHOLO: I can't understand the questions clearly.

MR MALAN: You said he was chased, and you didn't know where he ran to.

MRS CHOLO: The chief ran away because there were conflicts and the people were killing each other.  They killed his younger brother, so he ran away.  We didn't know where and most people now joined the ANC.

MR MALAN: These Congress people, were they looking for the chief and they didn't know where the chief was?

MRS CHOLO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Who chased the chief then?

MRS CHOLO: The problems and troubles made the chief to run away because they also killed his younger brother. We don't know who killed his younger brother, we just think the people of that village did because they didn't want him to be the chief.

MR MALAN: The people who came to you, in your statement you refer to them as TC's.  Is that known to you, TC's?

MRS CHOLO: You mean TC people?

MR MALAN: Do you know what TC people is?

MRS CHOLO: The Congress.  TC people. I don't know if those people were TC people. You won't know, I mean you'll see people just coming and you won't know where they're coming from and who they are.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mrs Cholo.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Mrs Cholo for coming forward here, we can tell that things have been very bad and we understand that they killed your granddaughter in a very bad way.  We can see what we can do.  We thank you for coming forward.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-19

MR MALAN: May I call the next witness, it is Ntoampe Stephen Moganedi who will be speaking about his detention, assault and torture and Professor Piet Meiring will be assisting in the leading of evidence.

MR MOGANEDI: This is my mother, my parent.

MR MALAN: Mrs Moganedi we also welcome you for coming with your son and Professor Meiring will be assisting in the leading of evidence.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Moganedi, from my side also very welcome, it is good to have you and we are looking forward to listen to your testimony.  We have heard a number of testimonies about the difficult times 10 years ago in Sekukuneland and you are also taking us back to the years 1986, 1988, when many things happened to you.  I am going to ask you o testify about that but before we do that I would ask you to stand up a to deliver the oath.

MOGANEDI NTOAMPE STEPHEN: (sworn states)

PROF MEIRING: Will you tell us what happened to you in 1986 and the two years afterwards?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-19

MR MOGANEDI: I have a request here, there are photos that were taken here.  These are the photos of when I was still a Rasta.  Now this is the only book that I'm left with, they took my books that were related to politics, they are in Marble Hall, this is the only book that I am left with, June Sixteen.  I'm requesting the Truth Commission to retrieve those books at Marble Hall Police Station.

PROF MEIRING: We will certainly be having that also on our record.  We will see what we can do for you.  I'm not sure that it will still be there anymore but we will look into it.  Thank you very much and thank you for coming to us.  Good bye.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-19

MR MALAN: The last witness of the day is Yasser Rasethaba Phokela.  Please  may I request that the audience be silent during the evidence.  Let us please afford the necessary respect to the witness as he's giving his evidence. The witness will be assisted by Mr Tom Manthata.  I see that he says in the statement that he's of the Moslem faith and he will be affirmed if he is prepared to affirm his statement.
 Welcome to us Mr Phokela, I see that you say you are of the Moslem faith.  You will have no objection then to just solemnly affirm that the evidence you will be giving us will be the truth. Will you please put up your right hand and say that you affirm that the evidence that you're about to give us will be the truth.

PHOKELA RASETHABA YASSER: (sworn states)

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Yasser, good morning.  I think you are relaxed.  Could you please tell us what happened to you in 1985 when you met a police road block?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-19

MR MALAN: I have a few announcements.
 May I firstly take the opportunity of sincerely thanking all the witnesses, their friends and families that came with them and specifically staying and listening to the evidence and the testimony of their fellow witnesses.  We really appreciate it, we know it's been a long time, we know it's a long way to travel, but we need the information and we really appreciate it that you're assisting us in getting it to us.
 Secondly to the public here at large, many of you have been here now through the three days, you've conducted yourselves exemplarily, you've shown the support, not only in the hearing but also in the mingling with people when we have our short breaks, we really appreciate that.  We will not take up any of your time, we still have a few things to attend to here.  The witnesses, we will appreciate if they will stay here, we respect them, there will still be something for them to eat and we will assist them in getting on their way again.  We will be coming back to this region, we will be specifically be coming back to Pietersburg.   If you have anybody that you're aware of who have suffered gross human rights violations in the past, please make contact with ourselves in Johannesburg, here in Pietersburg, through the SACC, you have some contact persons and names.  Let us have that information so that we can get even a broader picture, I think to which this hearing has largely assisted us in getting a better understanding from different perspectives, introducing even new angles to new dimensions to the conflict, that we haven't seen before.
   Also a word of thanks to my fellow Commissioners here, to the staff, to everybody.  I cannot tell you what the staff have achieved in making this possible with limited time, limited resources and from a far way from where we are having this.  I think it went very well, and on behalf of us all, thank you very very much to all of you that came to us.
 Then a special word of thanks to the media, who will be covering, have been covering, will still be covering here, and a last request, as you're walking out, please don't keep these little receiver sets and the headphones around your neck, on can so easily forget it, it's worth nothing outside of the hall, please just leave them again on your seats as you leave and before we leave I think we can all stand and we can end with singing the National Anthem.  
 Thank you very much for your attendance.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-18

RUSSELL ALLY: What role do you think that the Truth Commission can play in all of this?  You have come forward to tell us your story, what was the reason, why did you come to the Truth Commission?  What are you hoping we can do?

MR SASA: The Commission must help us with our property.  We are crying for property.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is, you say Ben brought lorries, who was assisting him with bringing those lorries?  Did the community buy those lorries? Can I repeat that? I'm saying Ben brought the lorries, where did these lorries come from?

MR SASA: From Mathlala, he was taking people from Mathlala and come to our places to burn our houses.  They belonged to Mathlala, they belonged to Ben Mathlala.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.  I don't know whether there is anything that you want to say now. Are you finished? So we thank you for coming here, and we hope that we are going to work out our way.  We'll try to make sure that we do anything to help you.  We thank you for having come here.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-17

MR SHIKOANE: This committee taught people how to struggle, how to fight against the government.  If some of the guys and some of the boys do something which is out of order, we were the people who called them to order and exercised discipline.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was the disciplinary committee attached to any other political organisation, was it part of the UDF or was it just something based in Malereng.

MR SHIKOANE: It was a committee under the UDF which was organising for the struggle.

RUSSELL ALLY: ...(indistinct) a member of this committee.

MR SHIKOANE: The police didn't know, only people within the community knew because I was elected by them.  The police didn't know anything about anything we were doing.

RUSSELL ALLY: And when the police picked you up in 1986, was this the first and only time that you were picked up by the police?

MR SHIKOANE: Ja it was the first time.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did they pick you up again or harass you again, or torture you again?

MR SHIKOANE: They didn't come back again because we were all afraid in the village.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you say that when the police took you to Skona, to the police station, they showed you some blood stains and they said that that was where Peter Nchabeleng had died, where he was killed, did you know Peter Nchabeleng?

MR SHIKOANE: Yes I did.

RUSSELL ALLY: ...(indistinct) so that you should know about what they had supposedly done?

MR SHIKOANE: Please repeat the question?

RUSSELL ALLY: I asked was that the reason why the police were, did they know that you had any links with Peter Nchabeleng? Was that the reason for saying to you, "This is the blood of Peter Nchabeleng", did they know that there was any association?  (end of tape 2 and end of recording)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

THERESA MALINGA: The fear that you have, when you saw him again, Dhlamini whom you described as the boy, did you feel any fear?

ROSE MAGUDULELA: No I didn't have any fear because I knew that he was arrested and in the hands of the law. I just felt terrified the day he came forward to ask for amnesty.

THERESA MALINGA: What would you feel do you think if he is granted amnesty?

ROSE MAGUDULELA: I will leave the country, I will leave South Africa because I will feel even more insecure. If I didn't point at him I think he would still be hiding.

CHAIRPERSON: Rose and Theresa, today you've come to talk respectively about your husbands.  Mandla and Mpigelele. As we've listened to stories we've heard many stories from women and women have paid a very heavy price.  We always talk about the price that our youth have paid but women too have paid a very very price over the last 35 years as we've moved forward to our new democracy. Women as mothers, women as wives, women as freedom fighters. And the two of you exemplify that here today by your maturity, by your understanding and I'm sure that the patients of your hospital are indeed very proud to have you there as nurses and health care providers.
 I myself are very concerned that in our new democracy people still feel frightened, and I can understand that fear because the individual or individuals you are referring to are still free. I hope that the message that goes through to those people is that what cannot happen is harm coming to the two of you. That within the Commission of course, you can come to us at any time and ask for protection. We hope that our police services who are present here today are also listening to the concern that you and Theresa are expressing. I thank you very much for coming and sharing your pain with us today.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: Can I once more ask, are the people from Driefontein here.  No?
 Can I ask Mathews Maseko to come forward?
 Mr Maseko good afternoon.  Thank you for coming.  Can you introduce the person who's with you?

MATHEWS MASEKO: This is my wife

CHAIRPERSON: I welcome your wife too Mr Maseko.  Mr Maseko, you are taking us back to 1991 an you've come to tell us the horrific story about killings of your family members as well as torture that took place against you. Dr Russel Ally is going to help you tell your story but before you do that can you please stand to take the oath.  Mr Manthata will you please take the oath.

MATHEWS MASEKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, welcome to you Mr Maseko, as the Chairperson has said your story is a very harrowing one.  You yourself were subjected to torture, you lost a brother and a sister and a brother in law, and this happened in May 1991.  I want you to tell us about what happened.  But more importantly if you can try and give us your understanding of why you think this happened, what the reasons were for you having been tortured and for members of your family being killed in this gruesome way, a brother and sister shot and your brother in law actually being hacked to death with an axe. If you can give us some understanding as to why you believe these things happened to you and to your family.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

KHABONINA L MASILELA: That happened before,  They started collecting though.

CHAIRPERSON: You said earlier on that your shoulder has been damaged because of the rubber bullet injury. What can you do with that arm, are you able to lift your arm like that.

KHABONINA L MASILELA: It's painful. This other one is fine but the left arm is painful.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else you want to say before we finish?

KHABONINA L MASILELA: No, I just thank the Commission to afford me this opportunity to come and relate also my story because I had a broken heart.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Masilela we have to express our thanks to you for coming all this distance.  My colleague tells me it's almost 500km away that you travelled today.  Thank you very much for coming to share this story with us, we have heard your pain and we wish you a safe journey back to your home.  Thank you for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

THOMAS MANTHATA: You mean that they were ANC in 1983 or ...(intervention)

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: In 1986. I gave them the books in 1986 ...(intervention)

THOMAS MANTHATA: They were already members of ANC?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I wouldn't know if they were members yet I used to see them especially during the rally.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mkhwanazi, is there anything else you want to say?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: There is nothing else I would like to say.  I'm just experiencing pain from my injured knee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mkhwanazi your story echoes the story of so many ordinary people in our country.  People were arrested just because they stood up against what we would look now upon as a very stupid law called the dompass or the pass law, but yet thousands of people went to prison for that.  You also suffered because you stood up and began distributing information leaflets from organisations that were banned, but nonetheless what you were doing was you were distributing ideas, ideas that many of our people have fought for and have died for, and again you suffered.
 I thank you very much for coming and sharing your story with us today.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

MR MNISI: I was disturbed.  I had to cut my studies.  When I passed that particular standard I couldn't continue thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, is there anything you want to say before I close?

MR MNISI: Yes I do want to say something.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Go ahead.

MR MNISI: I would like this Commission to help me find the people who injured me and the reason as to why they did it.

MR MNISI: Sipho thank you very much.  We hear what you're saying and we feel your pain.  People in submission that the Human Rights Committee of South Africa is to make to the Truth Commission next week.  It's a very lengthy submission but one of the points that comes out very clearly is that between 1960 and 1990, 15 000 people lost their lives in South Africa in the political conflict.  But between 1990 and 1994, the same number, if not more people were killed.  In many hearings and in different places that we've travelled in the last 15 months we've heard many stories particularly from that 1993-'94 period where people were either shot by cars driving past or people taking shots at them from hidden places, and I have an article here in front of me from the time that you were shot, from the City Press.  It talks about your town as a town of living hell.  And in fact there's a photograph of a younger you, you were still very young as you say.  But people lived in fear at that time and the article intimates that political activists, and you've talked about Mr Shleza as being killed at that time, but clearly there seems to have been a move at that time to kill young political activists and we marvel at you coming here today and being able to tell your story about yourself and about your friends.
 I'm sure people in the community recognise today how far we have got actually from 1990 and '93 to 1997, where yes, clearly we still have problems but at least we live in peace.  Thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndebele, so many young people killed and disabled as we've heard today, your son Sifundo was one of those, an 18-year old who on the eve of our democracy gets killed and of course you are left with the pain, and we see the pain even with you today, four years after the event. I in fact have the name of the other person here in the statement of Juliet Zwane and that person was informed about this hearing.  I'm going to actually respect you as well as all the others today who've said things are too tense at the present time for us to want to mention the person's name.  I, from my discussions at lunch time, clearly there are many people, probably the entire community who was here today, who knows the other person, but you are right, the people who killed were sentenced, have applied for amnesty.  Those people we know already and as to whether they'll come forward in front of you and other people who appeared today, that has to be their conscience.  As people have read in the newspapers, there have been times where these individuals had been granted amnesty or are applying for amnesty, have come forward to the Commission and said, can you please facilitate a meeting with the families involved or the communities involved, and we've done that.  We did that with Brian Mitchell in KwaZulu Natal and more recently, where one of the police officers was implicated in the killing of Goniwe and others. So that is possible to do, but we still don't know whether these individuals have been granted amnesty and we await that decision from the amnesty committee.
 I want to warmly thank you and I know you were not expecting to come here and talk today but by coming you have not only talked about your son but you have also made us hear the story of Nomsa.  Thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenya if I can just approach this question a little bit differently. You are the second person today who has talked about what happened at Nelspruit when the individuals who were responsible for the respective deaths of son as well as the husbands of the women who appeared earlier on, mentioned names of other people who are in the community and who are still living in the community. Now my question is, given that this is happening, I understand that the whole issue of amnesty is a very difficult one, especially where people have lost their loved ones.  But as these individuals are still living in the community, how do you, Rose and Theresa who spoke before you and the community move forward in understand this process in healing the community. Would you like to give us some of your thoughts on that?

DINGI S NGWENYA: We try to console each other and each one of us has got his or her own problems. But there is no source of encouragement from anywhere or we can't find any solace in each other. We all on our own have to deal with our own problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenya thank you very much for your honesty.  As I have said earlier on already that the last few years before out democracy were indeed very difficult years.  Thousands of people died, and as we tried to understand what happened, difficulties arise and you and others today are experiencing those difficulties. The difficulties about amnesty and the granting of amnesty, it's not my responsibility to try and convince you why amnesty should be granted but as I showed from that article early on, people were living in fear at the time, people were dying and it is within that context that we've got to understand what the Commission is trying to do and what the  Government is trying to do. I feel for you today on the  loss of your son and I hope that as part of the Commission's responsibility that we can come back and continue the discussions in terms of the conflicts that are still remaining within your community.  Thank you very much for coming.
    Comrades and friends.  Thank you very very much, this last period and the people who have come forward has been a very difficult time for all of you as you have been sitting here and listening, and I'm not just talking about the discomfort you're feeling standing at the back or sitting on the floor.  I would like to suggest that we break for lunch and that we come back at half past two.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-17

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson just a little comment and a question.  I think that maps sometimes are not very helpful especially if you have not been involved in drawing them.  So sometimes you know it  helps to just indicate that you saw bodies on NY1 or wherever to your right.  Sometimes maps you can't relate to them if you not involved in planning them, I find that sometimes a bit of a struggle.
 I don't know whether it is happening to you but my question is we - when in November - during November 27th when we had this kind of hearing last year - General Sibaca testified that when he peeped through the window and observed what was happening - immediately some police officers on the ground noticed him, they started firing shots at him where he was standing in the hostel.  And in fact Chris Bateman's report in the Cape Times did indicate that there was damage on the window of General Sibaca's room.  And our investigators have established that there were shots fired there.
 Did you notice any shooting at the time - at the -  on the day of the incident - did you notice anyone shooting towards the hostel?

UNKNOWN: Soos ek reeds gese het, ek het geen skietery gesien plaasvind nie, al wat ek gehoor het was skote gewees.

UNKNOWN: Advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.
 Mnr Hendricks kan ek net vir u verduidelik wat die punt is rondom hierdie plan en vir u miskien eers vra, het u die plan ooit voor vandag gesien - hierdie sketsplan?

UNKNOWN: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Het u dit voorheen gesien al?

UNKNOWN: Eerste keer vandag - vanoggend - ek het vanoggend net so vlugtig en nou weer gesien.

ADV POTGIETER: So dis die eerste keer wat u dit vandag sien.

UNKNOWN: Vandag sien.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou u sien waarom-  miskien net vir u verduidelik waarom my kollega's vir u gevra het rondom hierdie plan en my kollega me Gobodo-Madikizela vir u verwys het na die verwarring wat baiekeer gebeur.
 U sien volgens die objektiewe getuienis was die liggame wat in die bos gevind was - in die bosse gevind was eintlik nie aan die kant waar - waar u is nie, maar aan die teenoorgestelde kant daar waar as u kyk na daai sketsplan voor u aan die linkerkant waar T en S en Q en R is, en P ook - in daai omgewing - daar is bosse aan albei kante - maar eintlik was die liggame hier soos ek nou vir u verduidelik aan die linkerkant die T/S en Q/R en u se u was saam met al die polisiemanne daar na die punt toe waar die liggame was en was in die bos gewees.

UNKNOWN: Die een liggaam wat by Q is, vir hom het ek in die bos gesien.  Die ander het ek in die NY11 en NY101 - 111 en die anders in 101.  Ek het nie daar op die linkerkant en daai - dan moet ek se die bos was agter die hostel - agter Murray & Roberts hostel, daar het ek nie liggame gesien nie, want ek was nie tot daar nie, maar dit wat ek gesien het hierso.

ADV POTGIETER: Goed nee ek het net gedink ek gaan vir u verduidelik waar - waaroor die vrae gegaan het rondom die sketsplan wat u verstaan.
 Thank you Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Thank you advocate Potgieter.  Mr Hendricks you are excused.

UNKNOWN: Dankie.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Good afternoon Director Knipe you are the last person to be a witness in this Guguletu 7 matter.  I will now ask advocate Potgieter to do this oath please. 
 We ask the photographers to wrap us taking photo's now, thank you very much - thank you sir - okay - all right.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you state your full names for the record please.
LEONARD KNIPE Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: You may be seated.

MR KNIPE: Thank you.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much journalist - photographers - Mr Gool thank you - Mr Jason thank you.

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson you would have noticed that although Mr Knipe was represented by advocate Uijs unfortunately he has been here yesterday and today, and couldn't make it this afternoon, I will be representing Mr Knipe on instructions from De Klerk and Van Gend, Mr Adri Brand who is sitting on my right hand side.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Director Knipe you have a prepared statement which you would like to read into the record.

MR KNIPE: Correct, correct lady Chairman.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-17

ADV NTSEBEZA: Our next witness and I am made to believe the last witness for the day is Inspector Bertram Oswald - now I don't know how to pronounce this Moggee.

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman it is  end of Tape 5, Side B ... but I was under the impression that advocate Uijs made arrangements for Mr Knipe to testify at this - at this junction.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I have already communicated the difficulties which we have with that to advocate Uijs - we have returned communication between the two of us.

ADV VAN ZYL: I am sorry.

ADV NTSEBEZA: With the advocate that there are difficulties.   Welcome today to Inspector Moggee and we will take your evidence now and before we do so I will ask advocate Potgieter to take the oath - advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.
BERTRAM OSWALD MOGGEE verklaar onder eed

ADV POTGIETER: Baie dankie, sit gerus.

ADV NTSEBEZA: If you can now withdraw ladies and gentleman the media - thank you.  I believe you also have a sworn statement which you would like to read into the record is that so Inspector Moggee.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Shall you then proceed after which Commissioner Wildschut will put certain questions to you before the panel does so - thank you.
MNR
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

ADV POTGIETER: Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Chris Bateman, will you please come forward? ... end of  Tape 2,  side B ...  Good afternoon Mr Bateman.

MR BATEMAN: Good afternoon.

ADV POTGIETER: Welcome.

MR BATEMAN: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Before we listen to your testimony I am going ask you to take the oath.
MR BATEMAN Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, you may be seated.  My colleague Glenda Wildschut will assist you in giving your testimony.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Good afternoon Chris - Mr Bateman.  You have been with us for a while now.  You came to the briefing meetings we had over the weekend and it is now afternoon.   Thank you very much for coming.
You have handed us a written statement as well.  We have been hearing the stories of the mothers of the seven young men who were killed - some of the mothers of the seven young men.  We have heard the witnesses to this incident.  And I wonder whether you would like to tell us your experience - what happened and what you can recall from the incident that happened 3rd of March 1986.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson - about how long after you had arrived on the scene, were you interviewing these police who were involved in the incident?

MR BATEMAN: I have a - my memory is several hours later.  I can't remember - I seem to remember we went back to the office first.  And then telephonically established where the policeman that were involved were.  And went out but I - my best memory is - it was several hours later.

ADV POTGIETER: And what was the impression that you formed about the version of the police and the version that you had heard from the persons that you spoke to in Guguletu.  Did it strike you then that there - there was a mutually destructive element about  the - these two versions?

MR BATEMAN: Yes it did,  and it is the best way we could - could address that - was simply to carry both versions.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we - we want to pay a very warm tribute to yourself as an individual person,  but also maybe more generally  [indistinct]  tribute to those of your colleagues in the media -  who were amongst the only people who were able to tell our story.
We - we are constantly be saying to people that in - being engaged in the struggle,  it was important for us to be able to tell South Africa -  but especially to tell the world our story.  And we are enormously grateful that there were people like yourselves who did do that and when people did hear our story, indeed - what it was about -  the world supported us.  And today South Africa is free and I said in one other occasion, that the media - to some extent can be looked upon as having been the midwives to the process.  
And we - I mean we clobber you now and again when you are nasty to us and you don't tell nice stories about us.  You tell - you tell people about our cars and things like that and we get a little annoyed.  But seriously - we do want to take our hats off to you.  In that you - many people actually, in other parts of the world perhaps aren't aware of how dangerous it was to tell the truth.
That it was a very great cause and we are enormously grateful to you and I see to Tony Heard -  maybe stand and let us salute you as well.  You were editor of this newspaper at the time and you got into trouble.  We are very grateful and we salute you as well.  Thank you very much.
I will - I allow you to clap then and perhaps we should clap them.
I think we probably have earned ourselves a bit of lunch.  Can you please stand and we will resume at two   o'clock, please stand.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, sometimes we don't believe the stories we hear.  And then we are here today listening to the stories from people like you, because we could see you were not staying  at peace in your home.  Because if one can see you today, one cannot think you were suffering, because your son was killed, your husband was tortured and you were also arrested.
These are the stories that we want our children to remember.  We want them to remember that we paid a price in order for us to be free today.  We thank you a lot ma'am,  for what you did in your family.
We say that we hope that the Lord will support and comfort you and strengthen you, because we don't have any more words to comfort you.  Your story is so unbelievable, one cannot believe that this things were happening in our country and we want all people of this country not to repeat what happened in the past.
Thank you ma'am.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-26

ADV POTGIETER: Reverend De Waal, good morning, and welcome here.  If the  microphone is on, .  I am going to ask you to take the oath before you sit down.
JAN DE VILLIERS HOFFMMAN  DE WAAL Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Please be seated.  Ms Wildschut will assist you - will lead you in giving evidence - so I hand over to her.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Good morning Reverend,

REV DE WAAL: Good morning.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you for coming here.  You've heard this morning how the Sheikh  told us about this incident regarding the Pollsmoor march.  But now this is your chance to give us your version of what happened during this march.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

ADV NTSEBEZA: Your mike is off.  Oh! no-no that's okay, just  press the red button and so it would...[tussenbeide]
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

ADV NTSEBEZA: I will now call the first witness superindendent William Rudolph Liebenberg.  I see that you are senior superindendent Liebenberg is that correct?

MR LIEBENBERG: No I am only superindendent.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Oh! well the Truth Commission has elevated you.

MS LIEBENBERG: Thank you very much.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you, before you testify superindendent, I will ask advocate Denzil Potgieter to administer the oath.  I would like to draw to the attention of the people in the hall that there are I believe, earphones for translation because witnesses will testify in the language in which they feel most comfortable.  And therefore those who would like to follow will have to resort to the microphones.  Advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.
WILLIAM RUDOLPH LIEBENBERG Duly sworn states

ADV NTSEBEZA: Can the camera's move off please, I am going to have a policy decision about cameras during testimony.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman if I may, Mr Liebenberg prepared a written statement, a typed statement which I have already made available to officers of your - of the bench.  What he will do is that he will read the statement and obviously he is prepared to answer any questions relating to the incident.  With your permission then at the end a signed copy of the statement will be handed to you.  I now ask Mr Liebenberg to proceed with his testimony.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Very well Mr Liebenberg.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek, die ondergetekende
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

ADV POTGIETER: Het hy aan u gerapporteer dat Kolonel hier is nou vier mense wat vir my baie agterdogtig voorkom, dit lyk vir my hulle kan die aanvallers wees, waar is Mbelo of waar is die mense wat die mense ken dat hulle net kyk of hulle die mense is of nie, het hy so iets gedoen?

INTERPRETER: Did he report to you that Colonel, here are 4 people who look very suspicious?  They could be the attackers.  Where is this person who could identify them?

MNR ODENDAL: Dit was nie aan my gerapporteer nie, maar dit gebeur so vinnig, daai wat u nou alles se dis maklik as dit na die voorval om dit nou te kom se ons moet dit of dat gedoen het, maar wat die voorval plaasgevind het, dit is heeltemal iets anderste.

INTERPRETER: No, there was no time to report back to me.  It is easy to say this afterwards, but everything had happened so quickly - it was completely different.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja maar die mense het mos nie u aangeval nie, hulle het afgestap  gekom in die pad, een staan en water af slaan daar in die hoek en die ander drie stap lekker aan en hulle val niemand nie, nou skielik spring Kaptein Kleyn uit, en hy wil hulle gaan visenteer.  Dit is eienaardig, dis al wat ek aan u wil stel.

INTERPRETER: But the people did not attack you.  They were walking down the road.  One was urinating.  They did not attack anybody and now suddenly Captain Kleyn jumps from the vehicle and he wanted  to confront them.  This is strange.

MNR ODENDAL: Dit kan vir u eienaardig wees om te klink, die mense het hom aangeval - 'n handgranaat na hom gegooi.

INTERPRETER: It might sound strange, but these people attack him.  But these people  [indistinct] at him.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja dis natuurlik nou op die polisieweergawe ne.

INTERPRETER: This is according to the police version.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis op my weergawe en dis wat daar gebeur het, want ek was op die toneel.

INTERPRETER: This is my version, and that is what had happened, because I was present there.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja, thanks.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Mr Odendal.    You will now be excused and thank you for having come.

MNR ODENDAL: Dankie mnr die Voorsitter.

INTERPRETER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

ADV POTGIETER: Chairperson, we resume with the testimony of Tony Weaver.  I ask him to come forward.  Just before you settle down completely - can I ask you just to take the oath?
ANTHONY WEAVER Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, you may be seated.   My colleague  Dumisa Ntsebeza will  assist you in giving your testimony.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair and thank you Denzil.  Tony, to the extent that you need any assistance,  I will be doing that.   But - well most seriously I think you were here and you heard Chris testifying and actually contextualizing??? the role of what you played in this whole saga.
And I think the Commission now needs to receive your testimony.  Especially how you also became a victim as a consequence of doing your job in relation to this and without further ado I will - I will allow you then to give your story in the manner in which you would like to present it.