Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MS GCABASHE: I am here specifically asking you to focus on the discussion on the ANC leaders, just as one example, the ANC leaders, you said "we" discussed this and decided we should shift a little and also deal with ANC leaders?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Possibly I used the term "we" simply because such a lot of time has elapsed since that time until now therefore I stand to be corrected when I say "we".  A lot of things that were told to me as an instruction at the time or over time it actually becomes vague and then you forget how it actually was conveyed to you etc.  You must remember these were discussions which took place eight to ten years ago and to now recall specific details and what my input was, it's too long ago for me to remember that.

MS GCABASHE: Are you able to recall which particular ANC leaders who happened to be discussing on that day?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, no names were mentioned at that stage.

MS GCABASHE: ...[inaudible] at that time it was before Nelson Mandela was released so you really weren't talking ANC leaders you're talking the UDF people?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: To tell you the truth the word left wing leaders, that was mentioned, we never actually discussed in much more detail.

MS GCABASHE: And again, just focusing on this particular discussion, who was there?  You were there as part of the cell, De Beer - I'm not so sure he was there as the person who gave the instructions, yes?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, at that stage I think it was only De Beer and myself who had this discussion.  You must remember when I became involved in the underground cell I spent a lot of time in De Beer's house, he also lived in Vereeniging and we had a lot of discussions.

MS GCABASHE: What was De Beer's reaction when you told that you had killed a person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He said well I'm glad.

MS GCABASHE: He didn't ask for any verification for what you had done?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No he trusted me enough to know that I was telling the truth.

MS GCABASHE: Now focusing on that specific killing again - your objective was to prove to yourself and your organisation that you could kill a person, yes?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: You had a knife and you had a firearm.  Is there any particular reason why you used your knife first to stab your victim in the back and then up the throat so that you could reach the brain if possible as opposed to taking your firearm, shooting him, which I presume is what you would do if you were trying eliminate a cabinet minister?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I tried to go to a quiet place where the firearm would not be heard and I couldn't actually find a place that suited my needs so I stopped at this place where we left this person and I stabbed him with a knife to try and kill him as quietly as possible - but when I saw that that was not going to work, I immediately abandoned the knife and then I told Goosen who was with me to shoot him.

MS GCABASHE: And then very briefly on Goosen, having mentioned Goosen just now, am I correct in understanding you that you in fact assisted Goosen in getting an acquittal on the murder charge because you were dishonest?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.  You see if I'd made statements at that stage to implicate Goosen and he should go to prison then myself and the people with me would have regarded that as treason, it would have been seen as implicating him an actually doing the work of the security police because there was a general perception, or not a perception but a general standing rule that if you can help your comrades to go free then it's your duty, it's not only a requirement, it's actually your duty but at this late stage I see absolutely no reasons to protect him any longer.

MS GCABASHE: Yes, you see the difficulty that one has however is as pointed out by Mr Steenkamp that you took the oath when you made that Section 29 confession, you took the oath when you gave evidence in court and you swore to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.  This morning you took the oath and because we are looking to having full disclosure made, ones difficulty is, how much of the truth are we getting and are we in fact getting full disclosure here?  But more the truth of what really happened.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: You must remember, at the stage when I made those statements, we were still regarding ourselves in a state of war and if you look at the violence which was still happening at that stage in the country, there was actually a war in progress so in those circumstances you can't actually commit yourself by speaking the whole truth towards a government that you in any event trying to overthrow.  But the war has now become a thing of the past so there's now nothing to keep me back from speaking the truth.

MS GCABASHE: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman would you have any questions?
ADV. BOSMAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Lottering, this morning in your evidence you said that there was no specific motive why you looked to Mr Makgalamele as a victim.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No the instruction was that I could choose anybody as a victim.
ADV. BOSMAN: Yes, I just want to take it a little bit further - you said that "we simply took the taxi right at the back" and afterwards you said "I wasn't angry" but if I can refer you to page 14 of the document, you are there quoted in the second paragraph as having said that you were aggrieved because white girls drove around in black taxis, is that a bit of a contradiction?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes that was part of the misleading which I was endeavouring to do in terms of Section 29.  I would never have seen this person driving around with white girls in his car because I had never seen him before in my life.
ADV. BOSMAN: Well can you then explain to us why you went about this sort of misleading, what were you actually trying to achieve?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The whole statement was made in such a way that I was trying to prove that I did everything on my own initiative without any orders from above.
ADV. BOSMAN: Something else which is a bit confusing is this - you say that you had to prepare yourself to become a soldier, maybe I'm making a glib assumption, but don't you have military training?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, I was in the Post Office.
ADV. BOSMAN: Did that give you an indemnity from the Defence Force?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.
ADV. BOSMAN: And you were a member of Aquillo, you were a member of the military wing of the AWB?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.
ADV. BOSMAN: Now, does that not contain a military training component?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, the AWB training was of very low standard and it was more sort of VIP protection training rather than anything else, that's the formal training which we received in the AWB and that is the purpose of actually establishing underground cells.