Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I did hear about it, but as far as I knew him, I wanted to kill him because he was a policeman.  He was not the only one.  There was another person whom unfortunately we had no idea about his whereabouts.  Had we known where he stayed we would have hunted him down and killed him.

MR LAX: You see, is it not a possibility, and I'm asking you this so you can comment on it, that in fact what Hladi says is correct?  That you robbed him.  He followed up and that after the events you've now made up the story about him being an informer.  Is that not a correct possibility?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No.  As I explained before, I would have not have done that to the member of the masses, an African.  I do not want to have casualties.  Everything that I did I first conducted a reconnaissance to confirm my facts.  What I also want to explain is that we as APLA members have the greatest respect for the masses.  Such that I wouldn't even insult one.  Therefore I would have not made up such a story about a member of the masses.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, just further in regard to this issue of Mr Hladi.  Prior to this incident where the policeman was shot, did you or any of the other two members of that unit know Mr Hladi at all?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I would like to speak only on my behalf.  I may not know whether the others knew him, but from what I heard they just knew that he was an informer.  He had come to identify them.  In actual fact it was only one person to whose home he had gone to, that is Gift.  One other person who informed us that he was an informer was Vusi, who was not in my unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Vusi wasn't part of that incident with the policeman?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No, there was just three of us.  Myself, Eugene Madikane and Gift Mosiya.  Just the three of us.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you gather that Vusi knew Mr Hladi or at least he had the information that Mr Hladi was an informer?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: From the information that Vusi gave us, he informed us that Basie Hladi and Vusi and others will be at a "stokvel" drinking and Hladi was unaware that Vusi was a member of APLA.  He overheard him saying that if Shakes could be arrested he would get R50 000,00.  That is how he told me.  He would have received that amount if he had been able to give evidence that Shakes had indeed killed the policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are you Shakes?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes.  Shakes is from Shakespeare.

CHAIRPERSON: So, from your perspective, was it this, the fact that first of all Mr Hladi was seen in the company of the police when they went to Gift's house and subsequently to your own house.  Was that from your perspective?  Was that the thing that focused attention on Mr Hladi?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: That is how I identified him that he was an informer because he hoped that if he is able to identify Shakes he would get this R50 000,00.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it as a result of that, the fact that he was now in the company of the police and so on, that you then started taking steps to find out more about him?  Where does he live, what does he do and so on.  His movement.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: And subsequent to this, have you seen Eugene Madikane after the trial?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: After I was sentenced I did not see Eugene.

ADV SIGODI: When last did you see him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I last saw him on the second because he was found innocent and he was released and I was found guilty and I was sentenced on the following day.

ADV SIGODI: So, he was also a co-accused in the trial.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, we were.

ADV SIGODI: And Gift Mosiya as well?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No, Gift Mosiya was not.

ADV SIGODI: Was never fined?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know where he is today?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: From what I heard he died in 1996.  After I was sentenced I think he was shot by the police.

ADV SIGODI: And lastly, just prior to this, did you have any other criminal convictions?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: ...[no English translation]

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: ...[no English translation]

ADV SIGODI: No, before this.  Did you have previous convictions before you were sentenced for the murder of Mr Mashamahite?  Do you have a criminal record?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just one point, Mr Chairman.  Just as follow up to your questions.  Did you at any stage, even when you are in prison had any contact.  Do you know about this Basie Hladi?  Did you contact him or did he ever contacted you?  Have you had any communication with him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: From the information that I had gathered, Basie Hladi was eager to come visit me in prison and he said he could come and he hasn't arrived since then.  I'm still waiting for him to come see me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out in what connection he wanted to come and speak to you?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No, I would be speaking an untruth if I said I knew what he wanted to see me in connection with.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?  Mr Mbandazayo, does that conclude the testimony of Mr Buthelezi?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any other witnesses you want to call?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, at this stage I don't have any witness no, Mr Chairman.  Maybe if the Committee work I can - since take into account it's almost lunch time.  I can be able to consult and see whether it would be necessary to have another witness in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we can certainly do that.  I just want to ascertain from Mr Mapoma what the position is with regard to the family.  I'll come back to you.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any instructions to present any evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Not at this stage, Chairperson, but I would think that Mrs Buthelezi, in her capacity as a victim, will have to testify.  Even if not necessarily on merits but in her capacity as a victim she may want to testify.  But I don't have full instructions on that.

CHAIRPERSON: So, it appears as if we on either positions, on either yours or Mr Mapoma's position, we're not going to be able to proceed much beyond this point.
	What I also wanted to ascertain from you and perhaps indicate to you, if there are no further witnesses to be led, I would prefer that you present argument to us and that we conclude both the testimony and the argument in the course of the day.  So bear that in mind.  If there are no further witnesses perhaps think in terms of presenting argument.  
	If you have a difficulty, you need a bit of time to look into that let us know then we can always accoMmodate you.  And I think, Mr Mapoma, the same goes for you, let's try and even if there is testimony, depends on how far it will take us, but let's try and be in a position to be able to argue once we've concluded the testimony.  All right.  Then I think at this stage we will take the luncheon adjournment and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock.  So we'll adjourn for lunch.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you presenting any further testimony?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, there is no further testimony except that the applicants want to just to say something just before I close.  If they can be given a chance, even 2 minutes just to say something.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to do that straight away?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you come again, Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to do that now before you address us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, he wants to do it before I address the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, Mr Buthelezi, you wanted to address us on something.  Please go ahead.