Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-22

CHAIRPERSON: the 12th December 1996, while you were in prison at Zonderwater.  Perhaps if you can take a look at my documents you can, you might recognise the document when you see it.  That's the first page of the affidavit.  It's about three or four pages.  If you look on the fourth page, which is numbered 6(a), over one more, one more, go over, that's it.  There's your signature, is that right?

BEKI XABA: Yes, it is mine.

CHAIRPERSON: And what you're being asked is do you recognise this.  Take a look at paragraph 20.  See the beginning of paragraph 20, they're only short paragraphs, where you say you can't understand and the rest of it.

BEKI XABA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what Ms Lockhat is asking you is can you explain that.  Why did you say that in your affidavit when you now say that, you know you realised that you were assisting people who had done something wrong?

BEKI XABA: In actual fact, with regards to that, when I was arrested I did not know at that particular point in time why we're being, I was being, arrested.  Subsequent to that I was told by them as to what act they had committed previously, so that at that point in time I did not know until when the charges were pressed against us that there was one person who was murdered.  I did see the firearms or the guns 'though, although they did not find any in my possession as such.  This is why I'm saying this, because it was confusing at the time because I did not know what had happened, especially that they did not see or find any firearm in my possession, but subsequently I got to know since they told me, then I knew, although I was still in a state of confusion.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht do you have any re-examination?

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairperson, yes please.
	Mr Xaba, the Chairperson asked if Mr Thabo wants any further questions, because mention was made of his client, Mr Mlaba.  To which Mlaba are you referring?

BEKI XABA: There's this one gentleman, if I'm not mistaken, his name is Alfred Mlaba, but we used to refer to him as Mafileka.  That was the common name used.

MR DRAHT: Is he a relative of you?

BEKI XABA: No, not a relative.

MR DRAHT: But you didn't refer to Mr Tulani Terence Totsetse Mlaba, the third applicant?

BEKI XABA: No, I'm not referring to that one.  I only knew Tulani after his arrest in 1993.  If I'm not mistaken it would be between January, end of January and the beginning of February.  I did not know him prior to that, or before that.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Ms Sigodi do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness.

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect Chairperson.  You say that when you got into the car nobody told you what they had done.  Did I hear you correctly?

BEKI XABA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And you just thought that something had happened.

BEKI XABA: Yes, I thought on my own because I could tell from the situation.

ADV SIGODI: Now can you look at your affidavit which you made, the second affidavit, which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That the same one?  Not the same affidavit?

ADV SIGODI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give him the page number.

ADV SIGODI: On page 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Turn to page 8 Mr Xaba.  You see the big numbers in the corner, top, turn to page 8.  That's 5 you've got there, 15, turn back.  Mr Padi could you help him please, thank you.  Page 8.  Can you read Mr Xaba?

BEKI XABA: Yes I can read.

ADV SIGODI: If you look at page 10 of that.

BEKI XABA: You mean I should read from the beginning?

ADV SIGODI: No.

BEKI XABA: Which number then?

ADV SIGODI: What I want to ask, if you look at page 10 of that affidavit, is that your signature on page 10?

BEKI XABA: You mean right on top, yes I see it now.

ADV SIGODI: Now if you look at paragraph 4 of that affidavit, that is on page 8.  Have you got that?

BEKI XABA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: You say that my motor vehicle stalled on the road and Mr Mazibuko came to my assistance.  Whilst he was helping me with my car he told me that they shot a member of the ANC and that the police are looking for them.  Now, today you tell us that you did not know what they had done.  This is something that you thought.  Is there any reason why you are concealing this fact from us today?

BEKI XABA: I think what happened here was, or stemmed, merely from ...(indistinct) because it was not myself who wrote here.  I think there's got to be some mistake in relation to that, especially the way it happened, it's confusing even to me because I never even reviewed the statement.

ADV SIGODI: So what is the true state of that?  Which version do you want us to believe?

BEKI XABA: It's what I've said today, earlier.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax do you have any questions.

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson.  Mr Xaba who wrote this statement for you?  This has been typed out.  Was it not your lawyers?

BEKI XABA: It is true, I think it is the attorney, my attorney rather, who wrote it.

MR LAX: Didn't your attorney come with an interpreter to the prison?

BEKI XABA: He did come with an interpreter.

MR LAX: Well then how could there be such a communication problem as you've just told my colleague, Advocate Sigodi?

BEKI XABA: I think I'm most unfortunate because even this happened earlier on when I was being arrested.  I think I'm just unlucky person.  I'm one unlucky person.  You see I will tell someone, the second person something, and the way it will be related to the third person, it will be totally different from what I initially said to the second person, so that chain of communication, that's where the problem will emanate from.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xaba when you got to the red Colt, was the driver's seat empty?

BEKI XABA: Yes it was empty.  There was only this person in front, sitting on the passenger seat in front.

CHAIRPERSON: Did, do you know Mr Mbatha and Mr Mlaba, your co-applicants?

BEKI XABA: Now I know them yes, but before I was already saying that I don't know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether any of them can drive, or if anybody else in the car at the time could drive?

BEKI XABA: ...(no translation)

INTERPRETER: The interpreter has a technical problem.  I can barely hear the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you please repeat your answer Mr Xaba, the interpreter couldn't hear what you said.

BEKI XABA: I had no idea at the time as to whether any of them could drive, but as for Mlaba, was not even there, according to my knowledge.  Because the people who were in the car, I knew them, I saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that's my mistake, he wasn't there.  You see, you paint the picture of these four, these people that were, other people that were in the car were in a drastic hurry, they wanted to get away as soon as possible, and yet they're sitting in a stationary vehicle with no driver.  They must have been sitting there for at least some time before you got there.  Who was driving that Colt before you got to the Colt?

BEKI XABA: The owner was driving the Colt, to my knowledge, because it did overtake me on the way at some point earlier on, and the driver was the owner and I knew the owner.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that Mazibuko?

BEKI XABA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you saw him driving the car did it have Mr Mbata and the other people you found in the car, in it, at that time when he was driving it?

BEKI XABA: Mr Chair it's a bit difficult for me to say, because yes it did pass at a very high speed.  I could not see as to who were the occupants as it was overtaking.  I also did not take notice of the fact whether I knew any of them.  I did see the driver, the owner.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.