Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FAAN VENTER: I can say five times or on ten occasions, but I can't recall.  It's impossible for me to recall and it wasn't important enough for me to recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: But what we do know is that although you may not have been living in Krugersdorp until the 1st of March, that you were in Krugersdorp on a number of occasions during February.

FAAN VENTER: I was in Krugersdorp.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And why do you choose the 10th of March as the date on which you said this happened?

FAAN VENTER: I made an appointment to see Mr Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but why do you remember it was the 10th of March and not in February?

FAAN VENTER: No, I know for sure that it wasn't in February.  I made no political visits in February, after I moved in and had organised my furniture and so forth, that is when my political activities in Krugersdorp started again.

GEORGE BIZOS: When were you first asked to remember the date on which you had the meeting with Mr Derby-Lewis?

FAAN VENTER: That was during the trial of Mr Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And how did you fix the date, just from your memory?

FAAN VENTER: Yes, I was relying on my memory.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I am going to put to you that it happened during February when Mrs du Randt says it happened because she has a very special reason to know that it was before a particular date.

FAAN VENTER: I also have a particular reason to recall a specific date.  I was reminded that my son's birthday was on the 7th of March and it was on a Sunday so we couldn't have a family meeting, but we had it on the next Wednesday and that was the 10th of March, and that was the same day that I handed the weapon to Mr Derby-Lewis.  That night I received guests, namely my family, and we were celebrating my son's birthday.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  When did you first think of your - to connect your son's birthday with this?

FAAN VENTER: My wife reminded me, she remembers things like that far better than I do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why didn't you give that answer when I asked you whether you merely relied on your memory or anything else, why didn't you say that when I first asked you as to how you came to fix the 10th?

FAAN VENTER: I said that in court I relied on my memory, and I am saying again in court I did actually rely on my memory.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now when Mr Derby-Lewis asked you for a gun for what reason did he give you for wanting a gun?

FAAN VENTER: He said that they were stockpiling for the battle that was ahead.

GEORGE BIZOS: And he only asked you for one gun?

FAAN VENTER: No, no he asked for weapons. I only had one.

GEORGE BIZOS: According to the note that we have, he asked for "a gun", if you said so is that incorrect?

FAAN VENTER: Well it's four years ago, whether there was an "s" or not, whether he added that I can't be a hundred percent certain, but I think he said weapons, but it's four years ago it's possible that I am making a mistake.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now why would he think that you were a - you could supply him with an unlicensed gun or guns? What was the relationship between the two of you that made him confident to ask you for an unlicensed gun or guns, what was there between the two of you?

FAAN VENTER: I was very actively involved in politics in general, this could possibly be the reason for it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well the Conservative Party was a lawful organisation and Mr Derby-Lewis was one of its leaders, did the ordinary political activity of the Conservative Party include the gathering of unlicensed firearms or a firearm?

FAAN VENTER: Not as such, I don't think any legal organisation would do so legally, but there was a lot of talk at the time about the struggle that was looming and there was a Volksfront that was established for the defence of the people and so on.  It was more-or-less in that time just before the establishment of - and it was a turbulent time and it was a very unstable period politically speaking.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you a member of the Volksfront?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: In what cell of the Volksfront were you in?

FAAN VENTER: Krugersdorp.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were all your meetings that you had of the Volksfront in February 1993 in Krugersdorp?

FAAN VENTER: No, that only took place quite a while after I moved to Krugersdorp, that's when I started attending those meetings, about three months after I moved to Krugersdorp.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where did you attend meetings of the Volksfront before you attended them in Krugersdorp?

FAAN VENTER: I didn't attend any meetings before Krugersdorp.

GEORGE BIZOS: So but you say that the gun was handed over shortly after you moved to Krugersdorp, but when did you become a member of the Volksfront?

FAAN VENTER: In the first place I didn't say it was shortly before I moved to Krugersdorp, I said it was after I moved to Krugersdorp and there was already talk of the establishment of a Volksfront, although I didn't immediately go along with that due to other obligations I had.  It was only some time afterwards.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who recruited you into the Volksfront?

FAAN VENTER: I can't remember the man's name.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please be serious Sir.  You were recruited into an organisation, who asked you to become a member of that organisation?

FAAN VENTER: As I said I can't remember the man's name.  He was an employee of the Roodepoort Municipality but I can't recall his name.  I haven't seen him for quite a long time, he made no particular impression on me so there is no reason why I would remember his name.

GEORGE BIZOS: But surely the person that recruited you must have had meetings with you after he recruited you?

FAAN VENTER: No he didn't have any meetings with me.  We went to general meetings, and he just sat there.  He was just a face, if he was there, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.  Was the Volksfront that you were working on an above ground or an underground organisation?

FAAN VENTER: It was an above ground organisation.

GEORGE BIZOS: But could you explain why, if Mr Derby-Lewis asked you for a gun you delivered it to Mr du Randt's house?

FAAN VENTER: I think you must ask Mr Derby-Lewis that, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you ask him, "why can't I bring it to you directly?"?

FAAN VENTER: No I didn't.  I had my own suspicions, I thought Mr du Randt was the person who was actually stockpiling the weapons for him.  I didn't ask.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know him?

FAAN VENTER: Who?

JUDGE WILSON: Mr du Randt?

FAAN VENTER: No, no.

JUDGE WILSON: Weren't you somewhat hesitant about delivering an unlicensed firearm to somebody you didn't know?  It was an offence to have it in your possession wasn't it?

FAAN VENTER: That is correct.  But if Mr Derby-Lewis accepted Mr du Randt as a person to be trusted then I accepted the position as such, so I had ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: And you didn't ask any questions?

FAAN VENTER: I asked "why?", and he just said, just go and deliver it there it's more convenient.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you please tell us precisely where you were when the request was made for a gun or guns by Mr Derby-Lewis?

FAAN VENTER: At Mr Derby-Lewis's house.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the purpose of the meeting?

FAAN VENTER: I made an appointment with him to try and become involved in the local branch of the Conservative Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is this the first time that you met him or did you know him before that?

FAAN VENTER: I have already said that I have known Mr Derby-Lewis since 1984, but that was the first time that I had seen him since I had moved to Krugersdorp.  I think it's about two years since I last saw Mr Derby-Lewis before moving to Krugersdorp.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that if your version is correct, here is a person that you hadn't seen for two years and he has the confidence to ask you for a gun, what sort of gun did he want?

FAAN VENTER: Well I couldn't give him much of a choice, I only had one firearm and that's the one I gave him.