Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR VISSER: According to this statement, and you must please tell us if you disagree with what I'm putting to you, you told Capt de Jongh that you were sent to go and look for Mr Sbu in Lamontville, would that have been correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you were told that he had weapons that he had given, and that he knew where other terrorists were, can you remember that you were told that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Who told me that?

MR VISSER: Well did you tell - would you have told Mr de Jongh that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think when you say he had weapons, perhaps you can qualify it that he had weapons in Transkei.

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, if you look at the bottom of page 2, it doesn't specify the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's the top of page 3.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Oh I see, yes of course.  But that's what he told them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think if you could just ...(indistinct) was that he had weapons in Lamontville ...(intervention)

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, the way the questions are being asked, if I may come in at this stage, is as if that conversation in fact took place.

CHAIRPERSON: He's asking him whether ...(intervention)

MR SAMUEL: Whether he would have told any other person similar facts, not specifically Capt de Jongh, because according to my client he can't remember whether he had spoken to Capt de Jongh.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we know that.

MR SAMUEL: Alright.  On that basis, yes Chairman, we'll proceed.

MR VISSER: Well, is my learned friend disputing that de Jongh had a conversation with this person, Chairperson, and if so, on what basis?

MR SAMUEL: As we say, we can't remember whether there was a Capt de Jongh that had a conversation with ...(indistinct), so on that basis we will answer general questions as if, would he have told any person about these incidents if he was interviewed by any person.  Whether he'd spoken specifically to Capt de Jongh, we will deny it.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I just inform you what we've learnt in the meantime?  Capt de Jongh is on pension, he's taken a package, he resides in Bloemfontein, we will try to trace him and if necessary ask for a subpoena to be issued for him to come and give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  But I think it's clearly understood, certainly by Members of the Panel, that Mr Mbane cannot recall ever speaking to Capt de Jongh.

MR SAMUEL: I'm indebted, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe if he sees Capt de Jongh if he happens to be called, it might jog his memory and then he might remember it ...(intervention)

MR SAMUEL: Possibly.

MR VISSER: You see the point is, Mr Mbane, that Mr - well, Exhibit J says that you would have said that Sbu stated that there are weapons in the Transkei, and that coincides with your evidence here today, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Right.  Then lower down, in the middle of the page at page 3, you say - well, would you have told someone that you handed Sbu to the white officers?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct, I can say so.

MR VISSER: Now I want you to please give your opinion as to the next sentence that I will read to you
"Sbu was interrogated in my presence and he died.  Also as a result of an electric shock."
Loosely translated, Mr Chairman.
	Would you have told anyone that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't remember telling anybody something like this.

MR VISSER: That is not the question, I'm not asking you to remember, I'm asking you whether you would have told anyone that these are the facts?  That's my question to you.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, there's nobody I would have told that.

MR VISSER: And would you have told anyone that Miyeza and a white person went to get rid of the body of Sbu?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, there is no such.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you the last question on the Sbu issue.  According to Exhibit A, it appears that you told someone, well it appears that you told de Jongh, but call it someone, that you were present when Sbu died, now would that be true or would that be false?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is not true.

MR VISSER: You recall that yesterday I asked you in connection with Kubheka, what the purpose of the operation was, and you agreed that you were supposed to find out the whereabouts and weapons of four MK soldiers in the Durban area, can you remember that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I can remember that.

MR VISSER: Now I also asked you whether your instructions on the day when Kubheka was abducted, was to fetch the Commander of the four MK soldiers and to bring the Commander and any one of his soldiers under him, that you could, to Battery Beach?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Is that a question?

MR VISSER: Mr Mbane, let me try to make it simpler for you.  Botha gave evidence to say that your instructions, as far as he knows, were to bring the Commander, the MK Commander to Battery Beach, not Kubheka, did you hear that evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I heard that evidence.

MR VISSER: Do you agree with that evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I don't agree with it.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Because you told this Committee that your instructions were to bring Kubheka to Battery Beach - to the beach.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct, those were instructions.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now I ask you again, who gave you those instructions?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Botha, because Taylor was not present.  Botha and Simon gave me those instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mbane, who is Simon?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Radebe.

MR VISSER: You see at page 2 of Exhibit J, there is an indication that you might have told de Jongh that it was Taylor who gave you the instructions to bring her to the beach, to Battery Beach.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I disagree with that.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And you see, Taylor himself in his amnesty application, does not say specifically that he gave you the - page 4 of bundle 1, Chairperson, that he gave you the instruction, but what he says is, at the last paragraph at page 4
"At a later stage an askari, Jimmy Mbane, informed us that he had arranged that the Kubheka woman would be brought to us at the old Railway Police shooting range near Winkelspruit."
Now what I want to put to you on this application as it stands, and unfortunately Mr Taylor is not here to explain, he does not mention anything about Botha giving instructions.  I'm just pointing that out to you.  And I want to suggest to you that you in fact told de Jongh that Taylor was the one who gave the instructions for Kubheka to be brought to Battery Beach.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is not true.

MR VISSER: Alright.  If I put it to you that you told someone that you participated in torturing Ms Kubheka, what would you say about that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is a lie, that is not true.

MR VISSER: Well let me read to you what is stated in Exhibit J, in the middle of page 2
"Later that night while we tortured her, she died."
Would you say that's completely wrong, as far as your participation is concerned?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is not true, just false.

MR VISSER: Now you see, when I cross-examined you yesterday, I put to you that you are wrong that Botha told you that it might have been Taylor, and then your attorney said on record, no, that's correct, you will confirm that it was Taylor who gave you that instruction, not Botha.  Did you hear him say that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not.

MR VISSER: And just to ask you the last question on this issue, in your evidence before this Committee you were not specific that it was Botha, you said you thought it might have been Botha, is that correct?  Yesterday.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What would happen is that Botha was the one who would give us instructions, because this was his operation, Taylor was the overall Commander.