Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Good morning.  I welcome you all very warmly to this the 8th day of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
 We just want to request that smokers will please note that this is in fact a non-smoking area, the whole place.  Smoke outside, there are signs all over the place requesting that you shouldn't please smoke.  You may - I was going to say pollute - but I won't say so.  Please smoke outside of the buildings.
 We call on Mr Jerry Richardson.  Can I just ask the police if they will kindly ensure that the people singing outside, sing out of earshot.  I don't want to be disturbed.  Thank you.  Is Mr Richard here, oh, yes.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, the prisoners have just arrived and there is a bit of a delay at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR RICHARD: They have only just arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just remind you that we are in fact live on television.  Don't do anything you wouldn't like your children to see you doing.   Order please.  Good morning Mr Richardson?  Can we just ask, thank you very much, can we just ask one of you officers, if you could please sit behind the witness, so that our briefer can sit next to him, thank you very much.
 We welcome you.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Richardson, you started off on a good note.  Is it correct that in the course, and over the last nearly 10 years, you have made many statements?
 In fact on various occasions you have seen a previous Advocate, that is Mr B. Vally, myself, Mr Pigou of the Truth Commission, Liela Groenewald of the Commission, the Police, the media and you have given evidence to ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Please Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I will repeat.  You have made various statements to a previous legal practitioner, Mr B. Vally, myself, Mr Piers Pigou, Liela Groenewald, the Police, the media, you have given evidence  in the various court cases, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, you've had the benefit of all of us taking you through your various versions and you realise that there are some inconsistencies between them.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Nonetheless, you have been served with a subpoena in terms of the relevant legislation, requiring you to answer and give us information on various matters.  The first of which is the formation and the purpose of the Mandela United Football Club.  Would you please, very shortly, describe your association with the sport of football before you got involved in this Football Club?
 Would you please give us a very short description, and I mean short, of your involvement in the sport of football before your involvement with the Mandela United Football Club, what did you do?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: It is quite erroneous, let me ...

MR RICHARD: I am in the Chair's hands on this request.
LENGTHY DISCUSSION BETWEEN CHAIRPERSON AND MR JERRY RICHARDSON - NO TRANSLATION

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I think we stand this matter down.  We will convey to Mr Richardson's Attorney the implications of him refusing to give evidence here and we will also convey to Mr Richardson's Attorney our difficulty to try and arrange to get his family at such short notice.
 If possible we can try and telephone them, but failing that, we warned this witness that he has been sworn in, he is under oath, it is a criminal offence to refuse to proceed in this matter.

MR RICHARD: May I reply Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I believe my learned colleague's suggestion is appropriate.  I would like a brief adjournment while I discuss matters with my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take a 10 minute break.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: (No translation)

JERRY RICHARDSON: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  (No translation)

MR RICHARD: (continued) Mr Richardson, where we left off is that I had asked you the question would you please outline very briefly your association with the sport of soccer before you became the coach for the Mandela United Football Club?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Did you coach football teams and play soccer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, some time towards the end of 1986, early 1987, you were approached by some youths.  What did they request you to do?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: From where were these youths?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what association did they have with any particular well-known individual, Mrs Mandela?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, this approach let you to meeting Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that not correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what did you discuss with her at that first meeting?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what did they ask you to do and what did they say to you?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what was the discussion about?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, the soccer team was formed and an arrangement was arrived at whereby soccer boots, soccer jerseys, pants, socks and all the rest of the equipment were to be bought and the team came into existence, is that not correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, from where did you recruit the people who would play the soccer?  You heard the evidence of Mr  Azar Cachalia earlier this week or last week, and he described the displaced and homeless and disrupted youth of the time.  Aren't those the people you recruited to play as well as ordinary, proper soccer players?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, now, the team came together.  How many matches and where did they play matches?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right.  You've heard the evidence of individuals, such as Gift Ntombeni and other members of your team.  Do you agree that their evidence roughly describes why the soccer team was formed and what the soccer team did?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Please proceed, but shortly.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: You said you disagreed with some of his evidence and you wanted so say something further.  Would you please say it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: With the permission of the Chairperson, would you like to tell us the points?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, Mr Richardson, that is not the question that I asked.  Let's proceed.  Right, now other than  playing football, what other functions and duties did the football team perform?  Did you go to funerals, did you guard the house, did you participate in the household management?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, since you go there.  You've heard the policeman, Dempsey's evidence, where he says that there was a book at the Mandela residence in which various complaints and other information was written, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, what would happen if a complaint was registered in that book, be it against a member of the team or against a member of the public?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what would happen if you fetched somebody and brought him back to the residence?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And there was another incident that you described to me where somebody was found inside the house that was being built in Orlando.  Very shortly, outline what happened.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: When it came to the question of what the football did or did not do, what was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's role in those decisions and management?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)