Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

CHAIRPERSON: You made an application for amnesty didn't you? That you swore to?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In that application you said and I am reading from page 10 it is paragraph 9 a.4 of the application.
"As a result of that attack two people were killed through their resistance. One was shot at the scene. The other was shot at Mbashe river."
You make no mention there of having shot Donne at the scene.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: What is your question?

CHAIRPERSON: What is your explanation for your failure to include that in your amnesty application?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: The space here is small on the paper. There is no way I could have given details on the paper. I thought that the TRC would give me a chance to sit here and to divulge all the details.

CHAIRPERSON: The instructions contained on the beginning of the application says
"Please use a separate page if more space is required."
That is your explanation is it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I was ignorant perhaps. It happened a while back. Some times you forget. But this is why I am here now to give all the details, to give more information and to furnish you with whatever you need.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you seriously suggesting that you forgot that you shot a young girl in the face at close range?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No it is not that I forgot that. I did not notice that this was not stated on the paper, on the application form.

ADV SANDI: In your application form you also make no mention of Mr Meyers being a member of the AWB. We saw it for the first time this morning when you gave us your affidavit.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Are you saying that this is not on my application form?

CHAIRPERSON: No it is not in your application form. In your application form you say, paragraph 9 a. 4 the beginning
"We were 3 and we were given orders by our commander, Thanduxolo to attack Mr Meyers in order to confiscate his car and firearm which were wanted by our commander. We were told that our unit was short of transport and arms and ammunition as were operating inside the country."
	You make no mention whatsoever of having been told to kidnap Mr Meyers because he was wanted for interrogation because of helping the AWB.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Could the speaker repeat that please?

CHAIRPERSON: You have your application in front of you, your attorney is showing you the passage where you say you were given orders to attack Mr Meyers in order to confiscate his car and firearm which were wanted. You have now in your affidavit presented to us this morning given a completely different reason.

MR LAX: The question really is for you to explain this complete difference between what you say in your affidavit and what you say in your application. So are you clear what we want from you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I help Mr Chairman?

MR LAX: I do not think it is necessary at this stage.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Not to explain just to tell him what the Committee wants from him, make it clear to him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have made it clear. We want an explanation from him why he did not mention in his application for amnesty, which is what we are considering today that he was told to kidnap Mr Meyers, to take Mr Meyers to Mr Thanduxolo because they wanted to interrogate him about his activities. He made no, he twice in his application says, because he says this again in paragraph 11 b.
"We were ordered to attack and disarm the Meyers family in order to get arms and transport."
	Can he explain to us why when he now has put forward a completely different motive and completely different instructions why he did not set them out in his application for amnesty?

MR LAX: Do you understand?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I do understand.

MR LAX: Will you just explain?

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) explain?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not write it because I wanted to get this chance to explain to the Commission exactly what happened and what information I got concerning Mike Meyers.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not know that you were required to make a full disclosure in your amnesty application? That is the application we have before us today.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do know however it is difficult to explain all the details on such small space. This is why I thought you have hearings so that you can complement what you have said on your form to what you have said in the hearing. This is why I am here to give you all the details and to sort that out.

CHAIRPERSON: Your application is not for amnesty in respect of kidnapping My Meyers. Your application for amnesty is what is set out in your application. It would have taken very little for you to have mentioned
"We were told to kidnap Mr Meyers and take him to Mr Thanduxolo."
I understand you would not put all the details of why but this you now say was the prime object of your action which you saw fit not to mention in your amnesty application. Can you give us any explanation why you did not very briefly say that is what you went there for?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I heard it in court that we were meant to kidnap Mike Meyers. I heard it in court for a particular reason. As APLA was based in Transkei we were not permitted divulge anything that would jeopardise the army's security. Since then I stayed with that information, not divulging it until at this point at which you ask me the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: So you concede that your amnesty application is false? That you have not disclosed the truth in your application?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I disagree with that.

MR LAX: Just one other aspect. If one reads your amnesty application the object of your mission was to obtain a vehicle and arms and ammunition. If one reads your supplementary affidavit and your evidence this morning there is a very different object. The object was to capture Mr Meyers. What would happen to his vehicle was totally ancillary. It was not an object at all. It was just by the way. Do you understand the difference?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Please repeat that? Please do not get tired of me, be patient?

MR LAX: I will be very patient. We have got all day to get through this thing. It is fine with me. What I am trying to say to you is this. In your amnesty application the object of your operation, the aim of your operation was to obtain the vehicle and arms and ammunition. That is what you say the object of your exercise was. However in your supplementary affidavit and in your evidence before us today you give a different object. That object is the kidnapping of this man for interrogation purposes and then maybe at a later stage he would be dealt with. That is what you say in your affidavit, by Thanduxolo. What happened to the vehicle that was purely a side issue. That was not your direct object at all. And you have said as much. Do you understand what I am pointing out to you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I hear you.

MR LAX: So I want you to explain to us why you have two very different objects here? One object in your amnesty application and a new object today which we hear for the first time. And the two are not the same.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: As I have already said I was hiding these facts most of the time and I had reason. I was protecting the army. Even in court I could not divulge such a thing.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you protecting the army?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: APLA was accommodated in the Transkei and this happened within the boundaries of Transkei. If it had come out that the intention of APLA were to kidnap Mike then the South African government was going to react against the Transkein government.

CHAIRPERSON: And if it came out that the intention was to rob him and you name the name of your commander? Would that not also cause the same effect?