Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

W O THOABALA: The main reason to go to taverns as comrades, we were searching our enemy at taverns.  There was no other place to search enemy, only at taverns.

MS THABETHA: What did you intend to do with your enemies when you found them?

W O THOABALA: Our intention was to assault them, as they were assaulting the comrades and the community.

MS THABETHA: Maybe I didn't hear you well, but can you explain to the Committee what your role was in the attack of the deceased, and whether the deceased was actually attacked inside or outside the tavern?

W O THOABALA: I do not know what happened inside the tavern.  Benjamin Cholota knows it, because he was inside. I was outside. That is shortly the answer.

MS THABETHA: So am I hearing you to be saying that you did not take part in the attack of the deceased, which occurred inside the tavern?

W O THOABALA: I did not take part in the attack.  When I came back from chasing Phule Moalosi, they were outside, they were not fighting inside the tavern, they were at the gate.

MS THABETHA: Did you know whether the deceased belonged to any gang?

W O THOABALA: I heard later that he belonged to the Noxie gang.  I heard this from the commander of the defence unit.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that Mr Cholota?

W O THOABALA: That's correct.

MS THABETHA: One more question.  Were you at any stage inside the tavern in this whole incident that occurred?

W O THOABALA: I had never been in the tavern.  I was outside.  Benjamin Cholota got me just when I was outside.  When I went to him he was already outside the tavern. I had never been inside the tavern.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I am a little confused. I thought you told at the beginning of your evidence, you went to the BJ Tavern and that when you entered the tavern you met people you knew and they were happy to see you?

W O THOABALA: That is correct, I said when I went into the yard, that is where I met people who knew me. That was outside the tavern, but inside the yard.

JUDGE WILSON: The yard.  And is that where you met the owner and her daughter?

W O THOABALA: That is where I met the owner and she told me that she is going to call the daughter. But I didn't see the daughter, I saw the owner of the tavern.

JUDGE WILSON: And who took you to Benjamin?

W O THOABALA: She showed me Benjamin and I went to Benjamin. I wanted to ask him what was happening.

JUDGE WILSON: And you said he left, he didn't speak to you, he left for the door?

W O THOABALA: As I was talking to him he left.

JUDGE WILSON: Benjamin who was this?

W O THOABALA: Benjamin is a fellow comrade.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that the man who gave evidence this morning, the first applicant?

W O THOABALA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you meet him, where did the owner show you Benjamin when he left for the door?

W O THOABALA: Benjamin was coming out of the door, I was at the garage with the owner, and when Benjamin got out, she showed me Benjamin and I went to him.

JUDGE WILSON: And then what happened?

W O THOABALA: I went to Benjamin, I wanted to ask him what was happening.  Instead of answering, he went to the door and as I was asking what was happening, William Moalosi approached and we dragged him, he fell on the ground and I kicked him.  I searched him, I couldn't find anything and I dragged him towards the gate, and I picked up some stones to hit him with.  And Sono Kale, a girl working at the tavern intervened and he escaped.  He ran away. I chased him. I couldn't get hold of him. I went back.

JUDGE WILSON: So this all took place outside?

W O THOABALA: This took place outside the tavern.

JUDGE WILSON: But now we heard from Mr Moalosi this morning, as I understand, when his evidence was led by your lawyer, that he was, as he was leaving the tavern with his friends, Cholota asked if he could search him and they then had a fight and he managed to escape out of the main door.  You heard him say that this morning?

W O THOABALA: I heard him.

JUDGE WILSON: But that is not true, you say?

W O THOABALA: Benjamin got hold of William Moalosi at the door, not inside.  He asked to search him at the door, not inside the tavern.   Because Phule indicated that he was going out, going home.  That is where he met him.

JUDGE WILSON: But he said he was dragged out.  That didn't happen, he was outside the whole time, you say?

W O THOABALA: I dragged him outside and he fell on the ground.  He was at the door.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you do this? There you were with people who were pleased to see you, they were happy to see you at the tavern, why did you suddenly grab this person?

W O THOABALA: The people were happy to see me and on the other hand, their happiness meant nothing because they were assaulted. I wanted to remove first this harassment before I could be happy with them.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but why did you grab hold of Moalosi?

W O THOABALA: Because he was a policeman.

JUDGE WILSON: A policeman?

W O THOABALA: Yes, a policeman.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you sure?

W O THOABALA: I am sure.

JUDGE WILSON: Because he told us he served in the prison services.

W O THOABALA: Even though he was working for the prison services, he was part of the people harassing the comrades.  We took him as part of the enemy, not part of the community, because of the nature of his work.

JUDGE WILSON: You said a minute ago he was a policeman, not that he was one of those harassing the community.  You said you attacked him because he was a policeman.

W O THOABALA: I still maintain he was a policeman, it is true, and the policemen were harassing the community.

JUDGE WILSON: But you have just agreed he was a prison warder.  That's not a policeman.  Please ...

W O THOABALA: According to me a policeman and a prison warder are the same because they did the same duties.  He also had a gun and I realised that he had a gun and the main thing I wanted from him was his firearm.

JUDGE WILSON: How did you realise he had a gun?

W O THOABALA: I spent a week in Tamahole, I had seen him before in possession of a gun.

JUDGE WILSON: In the week before?

W O THOABALA: That was a week before.

JUDGE WILSON: Because he told us he didn't carry his gun around, as I understood him.

W O THOABALA: I think I heard him well, but there were times when he would be in possession of his gun, I saw him.

JUDGE WILSON: And for that reason you assaulted him.

W O THOABALA: I assaulted him.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, and you chased him.

W O THOABALA: Yes, I chased him, he ran away. I couldn't catch him.

JUDGE WILSON: Why were you chasing him?

W O THOABALA: I wanted to hold him a bit and punish him so that he could be in the side of the people.

JUDGE WILSON: You wanted to assault him.

W O THOABALA: I wanted to assault him, to put him on the right road.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you assaulted other people to put them on the right road?

W O THOABALA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it the policy of the ANC to assault people and threaten them in order to put them on the right road?

W O THOABALA: It wasn't the police of the ANC, but if you were against the ANC, we tried by all means to show you that what you are doing is wrong, everybody had the right.  But if we saw you was being against us, we would show you that we would be against you, in any way.

ADV DE JAGER: So every opponent of the ANC could be assaulted, according to you, to show them the right road?

W O THOABALA: Not necessarily assaulting them.  We would take a person, sit down with him, talk with him, but if he was pig-headed, we would take decisions on our own as comrades.

ADV DE JAGER: So if they wouldn't agree to vote for the ANC or to support the ANC, you would assault them?

W O THOABALA: We wouldn't mind for him to support ANC, but we were against him being against the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: So all the opponents of the ANC could be assaulted?  Is that what you are saying?  If they are against the ANC they could be assaulted?