Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-18

JUDGE WILSON: And further in your application you said, didn't you, that when she ran away you went home in order to leave your uniform and your books?  You didn't arrive at the place where Mrs Mphambane was murdered.  You met the Youth League when they were returning to chase her.  Is that not true?  That's not true is it?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: That is the evidence that I gave in court in order to protect myself.  The genuine truth is that I did
not go home.  I chased her together with the youth.  That is what I said in court in order to defend myself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think that you have given us two annexures.  There is Annexure A which sets out your participation and Annexure B which sets out the evidence that you gave to the judge presiding at your criminal trial, which you have indicated that was in fact not the right evidence.  Annexure A is in fact what happened.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.
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JUDGE WILSON: And in Annexure A you said,
"There were some of us who arrived late and did not beat her".

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: That wasn't you was it?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: When I got there I assaulted her.  I was not in the group that later arrived who found her dead.  There were girls whick were comrades as well who arrived after she was dead.

HASSAN MALL: What did she die of?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Mrs Mphambane was killed through stabbing, through being stoned and by knobkieries.  I cannot actually say which one led to her final blow.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bheqesi, what is troubling me is what you are saying in your evidence and what is contained in your application.  If you check page three of your application form you state that the intention of approaching Mrs Mphambane was not to kill her but to dissuade her from further participating in the activities of ADM.   That what is contained in your application is further amplified by Annexure A, which you annexed to your application.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it as I have put it down here.  Why I say it in this Annexure is because we were against what Mrs Mphambane is doing altogether and our intention was to kill her.

HASSAN MALL: Do you understand the meaning of the word 'democracy'?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes I understand it.

HASSAN MALL: Does it mean that a person can belong to any political party in which he has faith and has a right to belong to any political party?
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SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so Sir.

HASSAN MALL: Now if the ANC were in a majority as you say in your area, and there were a small minority who wanted to belong to a different political party, did they not have a right to belong to a political party?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: We as the ANC stressed that everyone has got the right to join their political organisation of their choice, but the problem with the African Democratic Movement is that Mrs Mphambane took steps that frightened us and she went to another village to find people who should assassinate the leadership of the ANC.   We were not against the fact that they belong to their political organisation but their decision to terrorise the African National Congress leadership led to the conflict.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you seem to have been motivated by the fact that Mrs Mphambane had organised assassins to kill members of the ANC.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now where did you get that information that she was behind organising people to kill members of the ANC?   Was that information obtained from someone who was reliable?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: We got this from a reliable person.  Firstly Mrs Mphambane - before I met the ANC on the bus it was already known in the community that she wants ADM members to assassinate the leadership of the ANC.  And this became true when one of our leaders who by going to this particular village in the afternoon on the 26th saw her, although he didn't see her coming back with the ADM or as to what she was already doing, but people really believed that she was intending to do what she was doing, although there was not EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
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enough evidence.  	And that is when we believed that what has been said is true and we decided as comrades that we should protect ourselves because we did not know who was going to die in the long run.   We were all scared.

HASSAN MALL: So a group of grown-ups, men, young men, strong young men, because there is a rumour that she might want to attack and kill members of the ANC, go and kill a woman.  I find that very difficult to understand.  Just because she has different views from yours.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: At that time in the villages in Ciskei it was very difficult to undermine even ideas that came with females, moreover if they belonged to the ADM.  We were bound to take the decision that we took regarding Mrs Mphambane, because the ADM that she approached, in that particular village, was heavily armed and dangerous.  And we heard in that particular village that this ADM has killed ANC members in that village and therefore we had to take the steps that we did in order to protect ourselves.

JUDGE WILSON: How many ADM members did you kill in your village?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: It is two, including Mrs Mphambane.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you told us more than that when you were burning houses?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: In my explanation I stated that it is Mr Mboso Lifeni who died during the burning of the house but a member of the ANC was hit by Mr Headman Bembe, Mzwetu Tseu who died and Mrs Mphambane is the one member who died in the ADM in Gobozane.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just a few questions.

MS COLLETT: I see that you filled in
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your application form in English.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Are you fluent in English?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Although I have passed matric I am not so fluent in English.

MS COLLETT: Now, what you have told the Commission here today that there was a plan and that you associated yourself with that plan or that decision to go and kill Mrs Mphambane.  Is that the truth?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

MS COLLETT: You have given different versions up until today.  Is that correct?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is correct.

MS COLLETT: And do you confirm those versions that you have given up until today are not the whole truth?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: They are absolute truth.  That is exactly what I did.

MS COLLETT: What you have said today, is that the truth, the whole truth?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is.

MS COLLETT: Now, if you look back on what you did at that time in the name of the ANC Youth League, have you any comments on that?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes there is.

MS COLLETT: What is it that you wish to say?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: In the past struggle in our ANC, there were no other things that we intended to do.  We were very active and very conscientious and moreover, the death of Mrs Mphambane hurts a lot.   We were not so politically aware.  The youth in Gobozane were not so politically aware.  What I can say now, I am very sad with the past, because at that
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time our political struggle was still very new and we were just struggling to achieve the new South Africa.  That is all.

MS COLLETT: And do you regard yourself as being more mature now?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes I see myself as a freed person and should I get forgiveness I am prepared to play a role in building the new South Africa, because I am now politically aware and on my release I am prepared to have a role in the building of South Africa.

MS COLLETT: Do you realise that the taking of life is not justified?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes, I see.

MS COLLETT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT