Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-14

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS THABETE: No further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, have you got any questions?

UNKNOWN: Just one question.  Mr Mhlongo, after you realised that the deceased died, did it occur in  your mind that, but for your going to that place to rob a firearm the deceased would not have died?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, had I not partaken in the robbery itself, this one person would not have died.

UNKNOWN: So do you in other words say that it is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, let him himself say the other words.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions?

ADV SIGODI: You say you gave the firearms that you took to Sibiya and the other people who had ordered you to get them, is that correct?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know what happened to those firearms before you were arrested?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I have no knowledge.

ADV SIGODI: You see, Mr Mhlongo, one of the requirements that you must fulfil in order to get amnesty is that you must make a full disclosure and you must be prepared to tell the truth to this Committee.  Now what I want to find out from you is that here in the trial it is said that one of the firearms, the one that was given to accused number 3, according to this judgment, who is Kleinbooi Tshabalala, was sold to one, Victor.  Do you have any knowledge about that?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, there is something I know to that effect.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, can you tell us about that firearm which was sold to Victor?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I knew about this firearm on the same day that we were arrested, after the firearm was ...  After we had given the firearm to these people they had taken one of these firearms and sold it to Victor because in court only two firearms were used as exhibits and one was missing.

ADV SIGODI: Why was it sold to Victor if it was meant for the Self Defence Unit?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: On asking as to why they said they wanted money so that they could augment firearms - excuse me, so that they could augment ammunition.  They sold the firearm to get money which they would use to purchase ammunition.

ADV SIGODI: You see the record here states that this firearm was sold for R700, do you know anything about that?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I don't know anything about money.

CHAIRPERSON: And proceeds divided between four people I think.

ADV SIGODI: In fact it says here that Victor could not pay the amount.  He went to the bank to get some money and that the money was divided between yourself and Kweniga and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The first lot of money?

ADV SIGODI: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other money that he went to fetch from the bank was divided between the other two.  Do you know anything about that?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, that is not correct because I was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: You never received any money as proceeds from the sale of one of those firearms?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the binoculars?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I would not know what they did with the binoculars because I left.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you hand that in to the ANC as well?  They could have sold the binoculars to augment their ammunition as well, not so?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: We did not sell the binoculars.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to it?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I would not know what happened to the binoculars because I left.

ADV SIGODI: Just one more question.  I'd also like to know, did you fill in this form yourself, the form on pages 99 to 101, is that your own handwriting?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV SIGODI: What is your standard of education?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I went as far as Form 1.

ADV SIGODI: You mean you could not fill in the form yourself?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I would not be in the position.

ADV SIGODI: Why not?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I didn't how they were.  I didn't know exactly what was required, that is why I requested somebody else's assistance.

ADV SIGODI: Was this person also an inmate?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it true that some of these inmates are so smart that they're running a service, or used to run a service to complete these forms in prison?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: What were they gaining from the service?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not too sure what their benefits were.  All I'm asking is, was there a group of people in your prison who were clever enough to assist in filling in these forms?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: We were helping one another.  There were many people who were helping others.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to know why did you refer to this unit as the Self Defence Force?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: It's because we were patrolling in the evenings, helping the community.

ADV SIGODI: No, because the ANC would refer to these units as Self Defence Units, not Self Defence Force.  As far as I know there was no Self Defence Force, there was a Self Defence Unit by the ANC.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I agree.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You know some time ago I dealt with an application - I thought it was a spelling error, it may not have been now, where it was referred to as Self Help Unit or a Self Help Force, is this the same one?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, it's not the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, have you got any more witnesses?

UNKNOWN: No.  Thank you Chair, that concludes the evidence for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, have you got any witnesses?

MS THABETE: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, have you got any submissions?

MR MHOLABA: Thank you, Chair, I'll be very brief.
	Mr Chairman, the application of, the form submitted by the applicant I submit complies with the requirement of the Act.  I would further submit that the evidence given by the applicant here clearly suggested that there was nothing concealed and therefore the full disclosure test has been passed.
	With regard to the element of political objective ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well before we go onto that, if it was clearly their intentions and their instructions to go rob in order to obtain firearms, which in terms of his evidence clearly is a politically motivated act, how does the taking of the television and the binoculars impact on that?

MR MHOLABA: The taking of the television, Mr Chair, I would submit that it is done by somebody else and not the applicant and in his evidence the applicant has mentioned that he reprimanded this very person for taking the television and subsequently the television had to be left behind.
	With regard to the aspect of the binoculars it is, the applicant has testified that because the item is very small in its nature he could not observe at the moment that something else other than the firearms has been removed from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Well either he's going to be loyal to this group of people or he is going to stand alone, he can't have it both ways.  He said that he takes responsibility for everything that occurred there because he was in the house, it's a sort of deflected responsibility if you want.  If that be the case, then his personal approach to the taking of the television and the binoculars must be seen in the context of the group activity, and in that sense I ask the question, how does that impact on the aspect of the reasons for which they went there?