Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

BENJAMIN BRODE: I think, yes they led me to an ambulance and they 
gave me an injection.  They gave me something to calm me, I think, 
yes.

MR PRIOR: Do you have any difficulty recalling the events of that 
evening?  You seem to have ...

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes, there are things that I can remember, but just 
after the shooting, there is big gaps, you know, I can't remember.

MR PRIOR: Is there anything else you wish to tell the Committee 
regarding the application for amnesty?  You said you had some 
statement or further points?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes, well this is just something that I would like Mr 
Prior to read for me.

MR PRIOR: Is that possible Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, assist him.  Is this something which you 
have written out yourself?

BENJAMIN BRODE: This is something that someone had written out for 
me, that I have expressed over to him and he has put it in writing for 
me.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, to balance properly the interest of 
society with those of the applicants, and to reflect such balance in a 
verdict that is both just to society and just to the applicants so often 
calls for deep insight and for the wisdom of a Solomon - qualities 
with which we are blessed in some small measure.
	One must look carefully at the offender and try to understand 
his background and what moved him to act as he did in the 
particular situation in which he found himself.
	Then the demands of society have to be considered.  This 
includes the need to express appropriate disapproval of what was 
done as well as the need to deter both the offender and others from 
committing crime.
	The rehabilitation of the offender is also in a suitable case, a 
fact to be weighed.  The crime in this case is particularly horrifying. 
 And it is difficult to think of a more terrible crime than of innocent 
young people being killed in such an attack.
	The way in which these young people were done to death, was 
heartless and cruel.  The cover up operation which followed, was 
cunning and evidence of coldness and deliberateness about the whole 
operation which I found disturbing when such relatively young 
people.
	The crime is heinous.  It is clear from the evidence that all the 
accused were very much under the influence of the military high 
command under which they trained.  Yet having said all that, it is 
nevertheless clear that they embarked on this evil course of their 
own free choice.
	We have not been told the full truth of the applicants, it 
remains difficult for me to find reconciliation in my heart.  
	Is that what you wanted me to read out?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Thank you, yes.

MR PRIOR: It is available Mr Chairman.  Is there anything else 
that you wish to bring to the attention of the Committee?  Is there 
anything else in this matter?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Mr 
Brode, let me tell you that on, I speak for myself and my colleagues 
here, that we feel for you and for the other victims about what 
happened.
	Indeed, there is none of us sitting at this table, who haven't 
experienced the kind of experiences that you are going through, 
personal and friends and relatives, tortured, maimed, killed, by the 
State, so it is not that we don't appreciate your suffering at this 
moment.  But I've got to ask you a few questions, you appreciate 
that?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Not really, but go ahead.

UNKNOWN: Not really?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: Okay, is it important for you that we must get as 
complete or as full a picture as possible about what happened there 
that night?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Are you prepared to help me to establish that 
picture, knowing that I have mentioned you have been here this 
whole week, that I am not here to defend the indefensible, that I 
agree with you that it was a heinous crime?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I just want to actually deal with one aspect 
which is an important aspect.   And that aspect relates to whether or 
not you know or whether you can't tell us with any certainty, 
whether or not Mr Jose Cerqueira used a firearm that evening?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Just repeat the question please?

UNKNOWN: Can you just tell us whether you can remember 
whether or not Mr Cerqueira used a firearm that evening?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Not to my knowledge.

UNKNOWN: Can't you say or are you certain that he did not? 
 Let me put it another way, is it possible that he may have used a 
firearm without you knowing?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: Why are you so certain?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Because when I went out of the restaurant, I didn't 
see Joe outside the restaurant.

UNKNOWN: Isn't the reason why when you went outside, he 
had already gone outside and had gone just a little way to the right 
of the door where you had come out with Frans and with the other 
waiter, isn't that the reason why you never saw him?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: How can you be so certain?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Because when we heard shots, I was the first one to 
leave the restaurant.

UNKNOWN: Were you the first one, was Frans not the first 
one?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: Okay, let me ask you why - you say you can't 
remember where you found the firearm?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: Why is the firearm in issue?

BENJAMIN BRODE: It wasn't an issue to me.  As you can see from my 
first and my second statement, I didn't mention that.

UNKNOWN: You gave evidence in court?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you mentioned the firearm in court.  Can 
you remember mentioning the firearm in court?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  You appear to have mentioned it in court. 
 The Judge, on page 47 of the record, mentions that you in 
Afrikaans you called at Cerqueira for his firearm, which he kept 
behind the counter.  Can you recall saying something like that?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes, that I do recall.

UNKNOWN: So you did mention a firearm?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Why did you call to Mr Cerqueira for his 
firearm?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I called to Mr Cerqueira to get his firearm, because 
we were attacked and that is you know, while I was running back 
into the restaurant.

UNKNOWN: Isn't it possible then that he heard the cracking 
sound or the sounds emanating from the Tavern, that he took his 
firearm and ran outside before you even got outside.  Isn't that 
possible?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.

UNKNOWN: Now if the, you are certain about that, or you 
appear to be certain.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Why did the firearm feature?  Why did you - did 
you hand the firearm to Frans or did you hand it to the Police?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I can't remember that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Frans Cerqueira says that you handed him the 
firearm and he handed it in turn to the Police.

BENJAMIN BRODE: That could have been a possibility.

UNKNOWN: So why did you hand him the firearm?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I can't answer that.

UNKNOWN: Because at that point, and Mr Frans Cerqueira 
says it was about ten minutes or so, I speak under correction, it was 
about ten minutes or so after he had picked up his brother, after he 
had been shot.  So, and you were in quite a state, so was Mr Frans 
Cerqueira, is that not right?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is right.

UNKNOWN: So, we are trying to establish here for what 
reason would you give a firearm to him, to give to the Police?

BENJAMIN BRODE: There is the possibility that when I went back into 
the restaurant, during the shooting, calling out for Joe, calling out 
for the gun, that after everything had you know, when we went out 
the second time and - well, I will start again.  There is the 
possibility that when I went out, when I came back into the 
restaurant the first time and called out for Joe and the gun, that 
when this was all over and after seeing Joe lying there, getting up, 
going inside, I know that I did contact my parents, there is the 
possibility that the gun could have been underneath the counter.