Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson.  According to my notes, it's that the people of Manyasene were allowed to ask questions, they asked questions and the people were convicted and then the committee, a number of the members of the committee went aside to decide on a sentence.  They decided on the sentence only, but the people of Manyasene had already decided that these people should be punished.  On the question of how many lashes, the committee, the structure decided on that.

MR MALAN: Really, I have no note or recollection that any evidence was led that the people or that public meeting came to any decision, they could ask questions, then the structure went aside, they discussed, they decided that the people will be punished and they decided the number of lashes.  I mean it's very important that - but we can refer to the record if we need to on this.
	On the same point, you in passing mentioned that Thulani Cele did not do it ...(end of side A of tape) 
... by Thulani himself, that he believed that he was being attacked, that this was in retaliation to a threat against him.  It was sort of a pre-emptive strike to protect him and his life.  The rumours -  I mean he so often referred to that.  Do you have any comment on that?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Honourable Member.  Thulani Cele said the people - he thought the people were going to attack him personally.  And if Thulani Cele had any motive or was prepared to go, taking into account a number of people who came to attack his house, only a few people, and there was a public gathering of about 600 people, who went along with the decision that the people should be punished.  Thulani might have taken a decision on his own at his own place and said these people, they are only four people from Umlazi, then there was no need for him to call on 600 people if he was ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, but let continue to the next step.  Who took the decision that they should be killed?  Was the 600 people or was that only the two institutions, or a few members of the two institutions?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I admit to that, Honourable Member.  I'll also like to comment on that, that the people who came were members of the community from Madikwe, which was one of the areas at Inanda, where there already has been ANC and IFP clashes or fights and therefore as they're coming to Manyasene area, which according to the evidence that was led, Manyasene had not experienced any political ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: So they're now carrying the clashes in other areas into this peaceful area?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, that's what I want to say, that they were influenced by the people whom they believed had a better knowledge of politics than they did in Manyasene, because according to the evidence the people of Madikwe said "you mustn't do that, you mustn't let the enemy go because they will come back and retaliate".  That is when it was decided that they should be killed.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(indistinct)

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you.  I'd like to continue to the next act of assault on Dudu Ngcobo, the killing of Dudu Ngcobo that is.
	I'd like to submit here that Thulani Cele, in terms of the Act, made a full disclosure of his participation in the assault of Dudu Ngcobo, which ultimately led to her death.  Therefore, in terms of the Act, where a person makes a full disclosure and that person is a member of a political, or a publicly known political organisation, that person or the act which he committed - as I stated earlier that he had in mind a political view, although it might differ from our own perspective of a political view at this time, but what Thulani Cele and the rest of the other people were involved in at the time, they believed that they were doing this under a political umbrella.  And I still hold that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let me correct you again there.  At all material times Thulani believed that the people had come there to launch retaliatory attacks against him because of Martin's death.  That is the evidence before us.  You seem to fall short of referring to that evidence, which I think is critical in a way with regard to his motive.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson.
	In closing my submission, I therefore would plead with the Committee to grant the amnesty as it has been applied for here, on the grounds that these people were under a political organisation and they thought that Thulani, to be precise, acted under a political ... Although those people came and attacked him and he was involved in the same - like he was the cause of the whole problem, but at the ultimate end all the acts performed there were performed under a political umbrella like they say they thought they were acting under a political objective.  That's my submission with regards to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let me understand you again.  They were acting under a political umbrella, what do you mean?  Are you saying they were acting under orders, or what are you trying to say?  Are you suggesting that they were acting under political orders?

MR MOLOHLANYE: As I was saying - thank you, Chairperson.  I was saying they thought they were acting under a political umbrella.  According to them they were members of the ANC, and according to what the ANC or the rules of the ANC, the decisions, that's how they were trying to comply with ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No evidence has been given to us with regard to ANC rules pertaining to such killings.  No such evidence has been led before me.  How can you seek reliance on that?  You haven't submitted that kind of evidence.  Or am I forgetting something?   I don't think - that evidence has not been led before us.

MR MOLOHLANYE: According to Roy Cele's evidence, which I will bring up in this matter, it was stated that when he was asked or when a question was put to him he said these people were punished because they did not follow the normal order, or the rules of the structure which was formed there.  The structure as it was formed, was formed by members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Sir, the structure was formed by members of Manyasene.  Now you also have just conceded that the - we have Amos Cele, who was the member of the IFP.  The structure was formed by the community at Manyasene, in reaction to the prevalence of crime which was taking place at that time.  It was not because of any political motivation that that structure came into being.
	There was however, some co-operation with ANC structures like the Inkangala Youth League and the comrades of Amatikwene.  It is not correct that the evidence as we have it, indicates that the structure was an ANC structure, or it was established particularly and pertinently because of political reasons.  The reasons for the establishment were criminal.  Its purpose was one and one only, to curb crime that had taken that particular area by its neck.  That's the reason why that structure was formed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson.  That will be my submission for Mr ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Thabethe?