Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: "We never fly that sort of cargo".   Inciden-tally, as recently as a few years ago, well after the Helderberg, one of your officials was involved in a similar issue.   Do you have or did you ever have a man in your airline by the name of Mike van Rensburg?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: In what position?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Was he not the cargo manager at Singapore?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: There was a Mike van Niekerk in Singapore.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: All right, I might have got the name wrong.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Because we started flying very late to Singapore, you may recollect... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...and the gentleman was Mike van Niekerk.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Mike van Niekerk.   I accept that I may have been wrong in that.   He was with one of your employees at Singapore, and the employee, who was a contract worker for you, overheard the following conversation, quote, "How are the Armscor shipments going?", "Fine, thank you".   "Are they still being shipped out under the title of hairdryers?"  Could you comment on that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I can give no comment on that at all.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, you see, what I'm suggesting to you is that senior members of staff of your airline knew that Armscor was breaking the regulations, they knew that cargo was being misdeclared, and they continued to do this even after the Helderberg had happened?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not aware of that, okay?   As I said earlier on, I mean I'm not denying that we have not shipped Armscor equipment or whatever it is, but then it would have been without the knowledge.   Secondly, if you... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Without whose knowledge?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: On my instructions of the management, okay?   But if people had been aware of that, then I would be very, I mean I would have been very disappointed they did not tell us about it.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well it goes further than that... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...Mr Van der Veer, because these are senior people, this is not a boy pilot or a boy running the airline, these are senior members of your staff, and what I want to say to you is this, that are you aware that Boeing employed a fire expert to examine the cause of the fire in the Helderberg?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Do you remember from which firm he came?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: His name was Mr Southeard and he came from a very, very reputable firm called Dr J H Burgoyne and Partners in London.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: They are probably the finest fire experts in the world.    Do you remember what his conclusions were?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, but I remember speaking to him.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well let me tell you what his conclusions were.  His conclusions were that the fire was unlikely to be a fire which was fuelled by ordinary packaging material, that it had to be a promoted or accelerated fire with something that contained its own oxygen.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I do not remember that, but carry on.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Believe me, that is what he found.   Can you give me a reasonable explanation why Margo ignored that finding?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.   If that was his finding that was given to Judge Margo, no I cannot give you any explanation.  But I mean there were many - if he was an expert on that, sorry I'm just trying to, while I'm talking I'm just trying to recollect, you understand?   You are aware of the experiment that was done where we rebuilt... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes, I am aware of it.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...the back of the aircraft... (inter-vention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...and tried certain experiments as to what could and could not have happened.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Let me stop you there.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I'm aware of that experiment.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I know that Theuns Kruger and Dr John Bland conducted that experiment, and I must tell you at the onset that if ever that were to be presented in a court of law, it is so deficient in experimental design that anybody would have little difficulty in shredding it.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It was simplistic in the extreme.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Here you had a man who had done intimate calculations, and furthermore he was the only man called under oath... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...at the Margo Inquiry, and Margo inexplicably ignored his findings.   Can you give me an explanation?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   What I'm saying to you is that everything here points, that I've told you today and I've been open with you, Mr Van der Veer, everything points to a situation where Margo either deliberately misdirected the inquiry, or was stunningly incompetent in actually getting at the truth, it points to a cover-up, in terms of missing documentation, where people would be justified, in the light of no better explanation forthcoming, in saying "Where did the tapes go?"    It points to a situation where vital evidence, and you've conceded that the tape recording of the cockpit voice recorder is vital evidence, has been ignored, and in fact the judge directed that that not be heard in open court, everything points to an interpretation of a cover-up, which if it is to be ever waylaid and refuted, requires now urgently a new inquiry under proper director-ship, to be launch forthwith.    Would you give that your blessing, having heard what you've heard today?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I would say anything that can throw light on the cause of the accident, and I said that earlier on in this inquiry, I would support.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But, Mr Van der Veer... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...you've heard an interpretation today which I've given you, which you have... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've got no objectoin.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...you have no answers to many of the questions.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, no.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Not only do you have no answers, you claim today at this inquiry that you've never heard these inter-pretations before.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've heard the rumours.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But I've given you certain interpretations to that.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay, you've given me certain inter-pretations.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And they're not rumours, what I've given you today is not rumours, I have given you factually based material and you have no answers... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...to them?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Can you think of any reason why this inquiry should not be started again and the entire Margo report be reworked?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I think that's for you to decide, okay?
I don't... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I'd like an answer to the question please.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If you want an answer, then it's no.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You don't think that the Margo Inquiry should be restarted?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, I didn't say that, I've just said if you want to restart the Margo investigation and it is a panel of experts, no objection.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But you see, do you see the reasons why those of us who have investigated this for so long, have the deepest, darkest misgivings about the whole affair?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That I can understand.