Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-22

MR SINJATSI: You say that before this pre-election bombs, you were told to forget about the ranks?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question.

JAN B DE WET: Can you just repeat your question, please Sir?

MR SINJATSI: Did you say that before these pre-election bombings, you were told to forget about the ranks?

JAN B DE WET: When we went to Leon van der Merwe, his house, he said that we will not have ranks any more because we are going to the war situation, that is correct.

MR SINJATSI: And you are saying that this did not mean that the ranks didn't exist, all that was being said was that you didn't have to mention them any more?

JAN B DE WET: I said that when in public we act, or in a war situation where we are amongst people, we are not allowed to address him as Colonel or Major, whatever, you must address him by his name.

MR SINJATSI: Because I want to suggest to you that to the extent that I may believe you when you say that Mr Barnard told you to take the bomb to Germiston,  I want to suggest that he was on a frolic of his own.  He together with the small grouping that you say you saw at Koesterfontein, where the majority of the people were not, that little group were on a frolic of their own, and you became part of it?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, I cannot say that because after I spoke to General Nico Prinsloo and also Brigadier Leon van der Merwe, and the instructions we got from the pipe bomb missions, if it did not have the approval of the AWB, I do not think it would have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it have the approval of the AWB?

JAN B DE WET: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Did the whole operation have the approval of the AWB?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, I accepted it because the Generals were with us at the base.

MR SINJATSI: Sir, look, but if we talk about Koesterfontein, did you see any General there?  When you went to pick up the bombs and drop it at Germiston, were any of the Generals there?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, if Mr Barnard asked General Prinsloo that must be stolen, where are the vehicles that must be made available, then I believe that they did know what was going on at Koesterfontein.

MR SINJATSI: This is but your own conclusion?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, that is my own conclusion.

MR SINJATSI: If you had known that the bomb in Germiston would kill so many people and injure so many, would you still have planted it?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, I was in a war situation and irrespective of how many people died, I cannot say if there were more or less people who died, I cannot say if I would have associated myself or not, I was part of the group and I associated myself with what occurred.

MR SINJATSI: Look Sir, I can see that you are at pains to always stress about how you associated yourself with everything that took place, but for me there is a clear distinction between associating and something that you knew you would have done beforehand.

JAN B DE WET: Out of my own I would not have done it.  If I as an individual or if I did not belong to an organisation, I would not have done it and if I was not in a war situation, I also would not have done it.

MR SINJATSI: Because I am suggesting further that when you wage war, you don't make innocent civilians your target and to the extent that you and your group went about it in that fashion, I suggest that it could not have been a legitimate war, you are fighting the innocent civilians?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, for me it was war and the instructions I received, I executed them as far as I could.

MR SINJATSI: I am not sure if I understand you well, do you agree with my submission that the way things turned out to be, this could not be justified under any circumstances?

JAN B DE WET: No, I do not agree with what you say.

MR SINJATSI: Are you saying that for you to get the Volkstaat, you regarded it as perfectly legitimate for you to go about killing and maiming innocent civilians?

JAN B DE WET: No Mr Chairperson, it was not the idea to kill innocent people, we were in a war situation and some people die within the cross-fire.  I will not say that they were the target.

MR MALAN: I've got a problem with this idea that you talk about innocent and people in cross-fire, or people in the cross-fire.  For someone to be in a cross-fire, there must be a target?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, that morning at Koesterfontein, they told me that the bomb would go to Germiston.  Where the bomb had to be planted, at that stage, I did not know.  I did not know the Germiston area, so I cannot say that it had a target or there was a target, or specific targets were appointed.
	For me, the election had to be stopped at all costs and I did not know where to place the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: And you just executed orders or followed orders?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Without asking any questions?

JAN B DE WET: Because we were in a war situation Mr Chairman, I did not question it.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you question it?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, I could if I wanted, but at that stage I did not think about questioning it.

MR SINJATSI: Sir you are saying that you did not know then what was the target.  Let me put it this way, if it was to be found that the real target was the black people or the black commuters at the taxi rank, would you still associate yourself with what took place?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, if it was an instruction, I would have done it, yes.

MR SINJATSI: No, no, I understand the question of instructions.  I understand the question of instructions, it seems to me you are arguing or submitting that if you get an instruction, you simply have to comply with them, correct?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairman, if I had to give the command and if I had to do it by myself, I would not have planted the bomb at a taxi rank.  If that is what your question was.

MR SINJATSI: I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR SINJATSI: .

MR BRACHER: Mr De Wet, you are a new kind of guerrilla to me, you fought volk and father land, but not the motor vehicle, is that correct?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, for God and the father land, that is correct, but not the vehicle, my vehicle has got nothing to do with that.  For me it was my God, my father land and my nation.

MR BRACHER: I am not joking Mr De Wet, it seems to me your evidence comes down to this, that you wanted to drive your vehicle, because you wanted to preserve it for your family if something happened to you, and that if General anything had said to you, we want to use your vehicle for a bomb, you would have said no, because this is your precious car?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, when I arrived at Koesterfontein and told them that I am driving with a bomb to Germiston, I was prepared to give everything because if the car was in the back of my car and it was detonated there and the time span that available for me, I would not have time to unhook the trailer, etc.

MR BRACHER: You weren't prepared to give your vehicle away, what changed over night?

JAN B DE WET: I made my vehicle available Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You see, we know until you got to Koesterfontein, you didn't know where you were going with that vehicle at all.

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, when I arrived at Koesterfontein, I was asked to go and hear from the General where is the vehicle that is available.  I went there to General Prinsloo and asked him the person is asking for the vehicle, for a specific vehicle with a tow equipment and I said we do not have such a vehicle.
	At that stage I did not know what it was for.

MR BRACHER: That is precisely, you didn't know what your vehicle was needed for until you got to Koesterfontein?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct yes.

MR BRACHER: Except the fact that you have been to fetch pipe bombs the day before?

JAN B DE WET: I picked it up that evening, yes.