Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — UNKNOWN

MS BRAAM: A panic, panic.  Jeez, because he - you know, and I was also - I wanted to play it down, because I said, "Oh, my God, I've got a stigma now", you now, being somebody they're throwing bones at and ignored that fear so - and I think that influenced my behaviour from then and he - so he said, "You do something", you know, and he said, "Get it out.  The best thing is to get it out.  It has been brought in.  Get it out", and he was in a hurry and he got in - anyway, he was very nervous about it.  Then I was expecting somebody else to come - Ivan, Ivan, Ivan Pillay, but he didn't show up.  I think he actually drove me to the plane, so I had to do something before - now, what I did is terrible.  I took that thing, put it in the waste bin in the bathroom and also the dirty, you know, tissues and whatever I could produce myself for making it really stink and ugly, you know, so that - because my fear was that when the woman who would come to clean, you know, would just see it, you know, All Vitamins.  Jeez, everybody in Lusaka can do with All Vitamins.  So I wanted to - but I didn't want to open it.  I knew the trick was, you know, that when you open it, it might have gone off or something like that.  So I packed it in this ... (inaudible) ... you know.  So then I left and I felt real bad and lousy because I couldn't wait till she arrived and I didn't want to throw it myself.  I thought she must just see that it stinks, you know.  I actually put shit and everything on it, you know.  I thought she'll put it in disgust and then it's - and it can't get, because the top was screwed, you know, and I felt very, very, very guilty about that and, to finish this, and I'd been asking people who came from Lusaka, "Has there been, you know, any explosion?", and then they told me that is - I'm sure it's possible to check, because I even read it in the paper.  Somebody came with the Zambian news or whatever the paper was, and there had been an explosion close to the railway station.  So not in the railway station, close to the railway station and what I didn't - I asked that person, "Has there been a sort of - you know, where you collect the rubbish - the rubbish dump?"   I asked that person, but the person didn't know and I didn't want to ask too much, you see, so ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: How soon after?

MS BRAAM: This is all during the Children Conference so this is all in, say, two, three days after.
/DR DANIEL

DR DANIEL: The rubbish bin then could have been taken there ... (inaudible) ... later.

MS BRAAM: It could have been, but I'm not sure if there is a rubbish bin, but there was an explosion close to the central station in Lusaka, and that is for sure, absolutely.  So, now that was then ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: (Inaudible).

MS BRAAM: Yes.

DR DANIEL: It was likely it wasn't poison, it was some kind of nitro-glycerine type explosive.

MS BRAAM: Ja.

DR DANIEL: And when you expose it to the air it goes off.

MS BRAAM: That is what I expected it to be and that it was not kosher I'm absolutely sure because it said, "All Vitamin pills" with no pills in it and it was not mine and it was brought in, you know, not by - I mean, it was not a mistake.  If there would have been pills in I would have still, you know, because these were the days that I didn't want to think - I wanted to think that I was the strongest.  My plan worked, you know.  There was not the slightest paranoia.  That came on, you know, much later.  Then I, you know - so when there would have been pills sent I would have definitely thought, you know, somebody opened the door maybe with his keys in his hand, I don't know what, you know, and put the pills there and left them and thought, "Oh, God, I'm in the wrong room" or something like that and then left.  But the fact that there were no pills in told me that this was ... (inaudible).   Shall I get some coffee and then I'll ... (intervention)

MR DE JONGHE: (Inaudible).
/MS BRAAM

MS BRAAM: Oh, ja ... (inaudible).   So then I travelled from Lusaka to Harare on a flight.  There were also the people - because the Children Conference was really used, you know, for people to meet each other and to put inside and outside so there was high activity.  They must have been so active on the other side, you know, because they knew, here was this delegation coming, you know, not only children, but they were accompanied by - I don't need to tell you how these sort of things were used.

DR DANIEL: It was a fantastic conference.

MS BRAAM: It was.  I still have the tape.  I mean, it's not that far back and look at it, but I'm sure that in five, six years, you know, we have - ja, I've got good, great memories of it.

DR DANIEL: Some of those very powerful statements of kids who are now dead.

MS BRAAM: Ja, no, it's true, and for me it was good because sometimes, you know, you were so much in this work that, you now - and so little exposed, you know, to this sort of direct - that was very helpful for that.  But, anyway, there was a hell of a lot of work, scheming, going on, you know, in all - in the hotel rooms and everything.  It was all set well and it had all several purposes.  Everybody was doing three, four things at the same time and Slovo was very important at that moment that he was exposed to the young people, that they saw that he wasn't, you know, ... (inaudible) ... all sorts of things like that and so forth.  And there were also - I think was right before Mac and Ngabuza went in.  That is how it is.  (Inaudible) ... September, Klaas?

MR DE JONGHE: Ja.
/MS BRAAM

MS BRAAM: September.  So I think it was October - the dates are all in the book - Siphiwe and Mac went in and that was, of course - and they were having sort of last preparation talks also there.  Now, I'm just telling you this all, the side of the - there must have been an enormous lot of interest and this was confirmed now recently.  So the conference took place.  I saw a lot of, you know, people on different level.  I had a - there was a Dutch delegation also - very innocent Dutch people, that thing, you know,  ... (inaudible) ... real thing like having a commissioner of police, you know, so the Dutch delegation was really - we had a top star.  So, you know, to make it into a sort of spectacular thing - actually to take away the attention from me very much, so that I could operate, because that was hard work, and so conference is over.  The work is done.

DR DANIEL: Where was the conference?

MS BRAAM: In Harare, in this big golden hotel outside, you know.  It looks like a cigarette box.  I've got all the ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: Sheraton?

MS BRAAM: It is the Sheraton, the Sheraton.

DR DANIEL: You stayed there?

MS BRAAM: I stayed in the Sheraton.

DR DANIEL: So the conference in the hotel ... (inaudible).

MS BRAAM: Ja, everything was arranged.  My delegation stayed in the Bronte Hotel.  Now, the Bronte Hotel is very important, because that is a place ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: But you didn't stay there?