Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Chairman, Mrs Derby-Lewis's evidence in relation to these complaints of illness was that there was an arrangement to bring both the district surgeon and her personal physician to attend to her.

MR PRINSLOO: (Indistinct) to Mrs Derby-Lewis what she had to say and then what was said there was thrown away, it was re-written until you were satisfied?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: This is a lie.

MR PRINSLOO: And then furthermore you are saying did she eat in the office or in the mess?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well I know at certain instances she had her meals in the office, at certain instances she ate in the mess.   At a certain stage food was brought from the mess and she was served in the office.

MR PRINSLOO: As far as she can recollect, she had her meals in the kitchen.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: What do you mean by the kitchen?

MR PRINSLOO: If the kitchen and the mess is one, I don't know.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: What do you want from this question?   She got her food.   You go all the way and you are so involved in what she had to eat, this is the old style, I'm so concerned about what she had to eat, she had no reasons to complain because she was treated well.

MR PRINSLOO: While you were questioning her, did you tell her that Arthur Kemp had been detained?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I told her, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you tell her that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well why not?   I told her that.   I don't know what you see in that, I told her that Arthur Kemp had been detained.

MR PRINSLOO: Please, you know that there were allegations that he had written that murder list, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: That he had compiled the list?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: It was an important key?

CHAIRPERSON: That Arthur Kemp had been detained?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Arthur Kemp was arrested by me personally, and I questioned him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: And you told Mrs Derby-Lewis that he's been detained?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, I told her that.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you first spoke to Kemp and then to her, or how did it work?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: After I had detained Kemp, I took his statement, and then I spoke to her.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you confronted her with Kemp's information?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, she told me that she'd obtained a list from Kemp regarding a certain story she had to write of the people who lived in those places, and I assumed, or rather I told her exactly what he had said.

MR PRINSLOO: And did he confirm what she had said?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: He did not know what she had said.

MR PRINSLOO: Did Kemp confirm what she had said regarding the story she had to write?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I believe that Mr Kemp's statement is here, and from that we can see what he had said, I can't remember what Mr Kemp had said in his statement.

MR PRINSLOO: And then with reference to this list you've shown to her, which you'd already indicated to Deetliefs, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: What is your question?

MR PRINSLOO: Did you tell her, as I can gather from your version, that Deetliefs said that she showed a murder list to him?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well if she had said that, if that was explained in my statement, if you can just refer me to the specific paragraph, it was like that.

MR PRINSLOO: On page 4 of your statement, the fourth paragraph from the bottom, or rather the third one.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: It's Colonel Van Niekerk who told me to show her that list.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you tell her that Colonel Van Niekerk was not happy with her statement regarding this respect?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No, he did not say this, he just told me to show the murder list.

MR PRINSLOO: She's mentioned this list previously?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, I told her that what she had said is a contradiction of what her husband had said in his statement and what is the truth, what is the truth, what was she saying, according to her was that the truth?    She said, her version to me was that she wanted to protect Kemp and if Kemp gave his full co-operation regarding that list, she would also give her full co-operation and she would tell us what the purpose was.

MR PRINSLOO: Where in this statement, or in any statement, did she say that she wanted to protect Kemp?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: She said it somewhere in one of these statements, I've noticed it this morning.   On page 3 at the top, page 3 at the top
"On that question she asked me whether Mr Kemp was still being detained.   I said no and she told me she had not spoken the truth about the list, because she did not want to cause troubles unnecessarily for Kemp, because he did not know why she wanted to obtain the addresses.   She said that she now wanted to tell the truth regarding this list, and she said, `Change this part about the list'."
This is what I'm referring to.

MR PRINSLOO: And she told you, initially she said that she wanted to write stories about these people?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, this is also mentioned here in this statement.

MR PRINSLOO: And you've accepted that as correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, I've accepted that as the truth, until I presented it to Van Niekerk and he said this was a contra-diction of her husband's statement.

MR PRINSLOO: A contradiction regarding what?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: A contradiction regarding the purpose of this list.

MR PRINSLOO: Did she mention anything regarding the purpose of the list, apart from wanting to write about it?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: She said she wanted to write stories about the people.   I presented it to the commanding officer and he said, "Somebody is not telling the truth.   Take it up further with her".

MR PRINSLOO: Did you do anything about the fact that she wanted to write about people?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: But it seemed that she really did want to write something about those people.   Mr Chairman, what she said about the list is contained in her statement, it's mentioned in my statement, there's nothing more about that.

MR PRINSLOO: I finally want to put it to you that Mrs Derby-Lewis was never warned, according to judge's rules.   You've already answered to that.   And furthermore you told her that she would be used as a witness.   What are you saying about that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Mr Chairman, an hour or two ago you said I was acting like a student constable, I was a captain in the police, I wrote my exams, I completed a three year diploma, I completed a few subjects in a legal direction at UNISA, I know what I was doing.   I warned her according judge's rules.   I have the qualifications, I have background, I knew what I was doing.

MR PRINSLOO: And I put it to you that you've told her what to say.   I'm putting it to you that you've prescribed her and if she had legal assistance, she would have not made the statements like she did, when she was warned by Captain Louw and Captain Holmes?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: According to the provisions of section 29, she was not justified to have a legal representative, that was according to the law at that time.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, Your Honour.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of Mr Walus, are there ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Captain, you have just presented your qualifications to the committee, you were also a captain at that point?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct, I was not a student constable.

UNKNOWN: What is noticeable to me regarding your testimony is that there was a very serious case which caused a lot of controversy nationwide, this was regarding the death of Mr Hani, and there was quite a large team of police officers involved?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And there was even a number of foreign investigators who were here to assist with the investigation?