Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?  Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I see you're looking at me.  Visser on record.  Perhaps you would like some feedback on the position of the victims.  I didn't make enquiries this morning.  I see there's nobody here to represent them.  Perhaps Ms Thabethe wishes to address you on that before we start with the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed in their absence?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.  I will be representing the interests of the victims in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, they're not here, but we can proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: They are aware of the fact that we are starting at half past nine?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, they were present yesterday, they are aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before we get down to the amnesty application in regard to Mr Cele, we have made good our threat yesterday of drafting a further document for you in regard to the violence in Natal and which also refers to Operation Vula.  If you have Exhibit A which we handed in yesterday, before you, Chairperson, could I ask you to turn to page 20 of Exhibit A and could I ask you and the Members of your Committee to tear out from page 20, the rest of those pages of Exhibit A.  We will now hand to you a document which will run from page 20, which will replace the documents which you've now torn out.
	Mr Chairman, while we're about handing up to you documents, we have prepared for you an extract from the written presentation made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law.  You will recall, Chairperson, that that's quite a thick document.  I've got one in my hand.  You will recall - you will remember when you see the cover page, what that document looks like.  We're not going to deal with that whole document.  What we've done is we have extracted Chapter 17 from that document and Ms Thabethe has kindly assisted in making copies for you, Chairperson, and we will ask you to accept that as Exhibit B, which we'll hand up to you.  Perhaps I should hand to you these documents now so that you can follow better.  May I approach, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.  You'll hand us the substituted pages as well?

MR VISSER: These are the substituted pages, Judge, that's part of a, b, c, d.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the substituted pages will be the first document.  That won't be given a new exhibit number because that forms part of Exhibit A.  And it now runs to page 35 if I'm not mistaken, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it does.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Then you have a document which is headed "Chapter 17", we would ask you to mark that Exhibit B.  That's the extract from the Foundation for Equality before the Law.  B for bravo.  Oh yes, my attorney just reminds me that that document, the Foundation's document, was the original Exhibit P45.  So we mention that as well.
	Then Chairperson, you'll see another document.  That document has a chap, a rubber stamp on the top of it stating "Facts to Gail Wannenberg".  Chairperson, this document was made available to us by the TRC on the last occasion when we appeared before your brother, Justice Wilson, Malan and Sigodi, in the other applications concerning Natal incidents.  
	We make that available to you, Chairperson.  We won't specifically rely on it, we're not even certain whether all the detail here is correct.  But it is an interesting document.  It was compiled by a Dr Robert Henderson from Canada and it gives an interesting perspective on Vula.  And that is for your own reading pleasure, Chairperson.
	Then lastly, we hand up to you a summary of the evidence of Lt-Col Botha, who will be the first witness.  And may we suggest that that be marked Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't propose to deal with the new pages 20 and further from the bar as it were, Col Botha who is now going to give evidence in the Cele matter before, when we commence with that matter, is far more au fait with the facts and we thought it better for him to run through that document with you, so that if there are any questions which may occur to the Members of the Committee, they could raise it with him because he's the ideal person to deal with issues which may arise from Vula and Butterfly etc.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Visser, I don't have a copy of Exhibit D, can you perhaps assist me please.

MR VISSER: I'm terribly sorry, Chairperson.  Terribly sorry.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well Mr Chairman, if you are satisfied so far, then we are ready to proceed with the Cele matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we appear in the kidnap and killing of Mr Dion Cele, on behalf of Col Botha, Col Vorster, V-O-R-S-T-E-R, and W/O Wasserman, W-A-S-S-E-R-M-A-N.  Perhaps you would require the other interested parties perhaps to just place them on record, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I think we already have, we did that yesterday.

MR VISSER: Alright.  If I may proceed then, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I call Col Botha to give evidence.  He prefers to give his evidence in Afrikaans.  He is ready to be sworn in.  He had no objection to taking the oath.

H J P BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Botha.
	Mr Botha, you are an applicant for amnesty in the application with regard to the abduction and killing of Mr Dion Cele.  He is also known as Mr Mbova, M-B-O-V-A Mzimela, M-Z-I-M-E-L-A.  His MK name as Charles and he had an alias, Dion Cele.  Is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application can be found in the Cele bundle, from page 19 to 34.  Do you confirm the content and the correctness, with the exception of any amendments or adjustments that you wish to bring to the evidence of your official amnesty application?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the incident is at page 29 of the bundle.  You will probably not find it necessary to refer to that bundle, in view of Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: But that is where it is - where it resides in that bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VISSER: You have also compiled a statement along with your legal representatives, in which you according to your current recollection have summarised the facts of the matter, and that can be found in Exhibit D.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you also confirm the content and correctness of Exhibit D?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: In Exhibit D you refer to Exhibit A, that is the general background, and do you have personal knowledge of the matters with regard to annexure A, insofar as they refer to Lesotho and Botswana?

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now with the exception of those two aspects, do you confirm according to your knowledge and insight, the correctness of Exhibit A?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: If we could then page through Exhibit A, I would like you to go to page 20 of Exhibit A, actually page 21.  And then when I ask you to submit to the Committee the circumstances as you understood them with regard to Swaziland and Natal.  Would you be able to do so please?

H J P BOTHA: Certainly.
"Chairperson, during a summit which was held at Simonstown approximately at the end of 1980 or the beginning of 1981, during which all the members of the Security Committee were involved, among others a decision was made that the information collection and actions in Swaziland, even though they were situated outside the borders of the RSA, fell below the auspices of the Security Branch of South Africa for the purposes of the collection of information and the execution of duties."

MR VISSER: We are not really certain of the definition of operations in those circumstances.

H J P BOTHA: No.