Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

LOYANDA MOLESHE: There was no need for being aggressive at the time we were talking to him because he didn't resist when we told him that he was needed at the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to him you were humiliating him in front of his children and also in front of other policemen on your arrival at the college, calling him a thief.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I wouldn't dispute that because he was not in the car that I was in, there were two cars there.  He was in the first car and I was in the second car, maybe that happened, but I don't have any knowledge about it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that you were never part of the people who planned the meeting and you did not know what the meeting was all about?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct, I didn't know what the meeting was all about, I was not part of the plan, or I was not part of it when it started.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And therefore, is it correct that you could not be part of the people who wanted to unseat Brig Gqozo because you did not know about that?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is not so, Sir, because I also didn't like Gqozo.  I was one of the people who didn't like him.  If it had happened that I was there at beginning of the meeting I would have supported that because I've supported it when I arrived there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that Mr Sawuti all along, throughout the meeting, he was not fetched from his place until somebody mentioned that he has misappropriated funds and then for that purpose he was fetched from his home?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: As I've already said before, there were discussions in the meeting about what had happened and these cases didn't go further against the officers because they were close to Brig Gqozo so he prevented these cases to go forward and the issue of the money came forward, it became part of the things that were being discussed so we were told to go and fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: They were fetched because people wanted to establish how much have they misappropriated, not that they were fetched because you people, you wanted to remove Gqozo.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: That is not so.  Each and every officer, there were a lot of officers in the Ciskei, so it was difficult to think about all of them.  If a person suggests or thinks about a particular officer, we would go and fetch that officer even if he was not involved in the misuse of money.  There were other officers that were not fetched that particular day, but we didn't think about them at the time but they were also needed in the camp.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, if the decision was to take the officers because they were closer to Gqozo, therefore during the day when other officers were arrested or taken as hostage, it means that all the officers, if the purpose was to take all the officers, all the officers could have been taken during the day on the 22nd.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Those we could be able to get, we did get them.  We went to the head office and we took them all and then we went to the logistics office and then we took those that were there and those that were in other areas, so we couldn't find others during the day and then we managed to get others during the evening and then they met Capt Tlela for example at the robots and then he was taken to that area.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So the aim of taking the officers into the hall was not to unify the police and have one voice against Gqozo, is that what you are saying?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I've already said the officers were the people that were close to Brig Gqozo, so it would have been difficult for us to be united with him, but we wanted them to be there in that place and Gqozo to be alone outside.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, why were the officers not questioned about their relationship with Gqozo, why were they questioned about the misappropriation of funds?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I wouldn't be able to answer that because I was not asking any questions and as I've already said, we were in and out, so I wouldn't say that those questions were asked or not.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who told you the purpose of fetching the officers?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I heard that from the hall.  I was outside.  I heard that people said that we were supposed to go and fetch Sawuti.  I was the one who knew where he was staying so I went inside the hall and I told them that I knew where he was staying, so I went to fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was the purpose of fetching Mr Sawuti from his house?  Was it to unseat Gqozo, when it was announced when you were outside, or was it said the Mr Sawuti has misappropriated some funds therefore he must be fetched and come and account for that?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: The person who announced this, I didn't hear his reasons, he just asked whether we - is there anyone who knew where Mr Sawuti was staying, I then said yes I knew where he was staying.  I didn't ask why he was needed and I knew where he was staying so I decided to go and fetch him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you did not know for what purpose Mr Sawuti was to be fetched?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I knew that the officers were needed inside.  They had to be in the camp.  If we meet an officer, you have to take him to the camp.  He was one of the officers to be taken to the camp.

MR NOMPOZOLO: All along during the day the officers, during the day, during the night, the officers were questioned about their promotions, were questioned about the misappropriation of funds, is that correct?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: There were questions about the misappropriation of money and those were the reasons why we asked them and then their cases were not going forward, and then that involved the politicians such as Brig Gqozo.  Those were the discussions that were happening inside.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And there was not one political question asked of Mr Sawuti, was there any?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I don't know what kind of questions Mr Sawuti was asked, I didn't ask any questions.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that your role was just to kidnap him and put him in the hall and nothing further?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that was one of them, that he was supposed to be in the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you do any other thing to Mr Sawuti other than kidnapping him?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: No, I didn't do any other thing to him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that you decided to apply for amnesty after you had been charged at Zwelitsha Regional Court?  After you had been charged and convicted at Zwelitsha Regional court?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it also correct that you applied for amnesty after summons had been issued for kidnapping, for unlawful arrest and detention and for malicious prosecution by Mr Sawuti and others?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, I even appeared in court.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that. prior to the civil and the criminal cases against you, you did not apply for amnesty, neither did you think of doing so?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I didn't apply for amnesty before.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the actions of the day, that is the 22nd and the 23rd, as far as you are concerned, were not politically aligned but you were just doing this out of excitement?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: No, our excitement would not lead us to think of removing Brig Gqozo.  It was not just excitement, it was what we wanted so we had to do it that way so that it can be successful because, in the first place, we knew that the soldiers were divided.  There were soldiers who supported Gqozo and there were those that didn't support him.  The police and our management were supporting Brig Gqozo.  We knew that that was the opportunity to remove Brig Gqozo, that's why we did those things the way we did them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you happen to know if Brig Gqozo was informed that officers were held hostage at the Bisho police college?