Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, what did you say, what was the content of your first communications with leaders of the ANC and ANC Youth League who were injured in the incident?  For instance, Mr William Steenkamp, what did you tell him, because, obviously, the incident would have been raised by either you or Mr Steenkamp.

LAURENS MBATHA: As I have said, at that time I did not inform them.

PROF DE KOKER: What was the content of your first discussion with Mr Steenkamp then?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, the discussion with the (...indistinct) that time he was also a victim of it.  You only paid him a visit at home and the issue was not discussed.

PROF DE KOKER: No questions, no discussions about the incident.  At that stage various rumours were flying about in the country over who was responsible for the incident.  Mr Steenkamp was injured, but that was never raised in your discussion with him.  Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: I do not deny the fact that he was injured, but as I am saying, I did not discuss it with him, because at that time nobody knew exactly what happened, but I knew it between myself and Smiles.

PROF DE KOKER: So although you knew you did not divulge that to the leaders of the ANC?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: And what was the content of your first discussion with Mr John Block?  Did you reveal your involvement to him?  He was also injured in the attack.

LAURENS MBATHA: I have never revealed it to John also.

PROF DE KOKER: Yet some weeks later you reveal it not to the leaders of the organisation, but to some members unnamed of Cosas?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: As you were personally responsible for the injury of senior members of your organisation, who you regard as your seniors, it is only to be expected that at some stage you would have raised the issue with them and apologised.  Yet, it seems as if you have not done that, but you spoke to some other members of the organisation, unnamed, who, apparently, junior members, and you told them about your involvement and your knowledge.

LAURENS MBATHA: I did not specifically refer to the level of those members, exactly whether they were junior at that stage.  I said I spoke to members of Cosas.

PROF DE KOKER: Can you name those members for us please?

LAURENS MBATHA: At this stage, specifically, I cannot really exactly say who were they, because it was not only them.  I even spoke to the staff where Khozo was, Thembinkosi was attending school at, because at that time they wanted, actually, to come up with a position exactly what is happening with Khozo inside there.  Does he know about the thing.  It was at the time when I said I am not sure whether the Deputy-Principal, because the one I recall him very well, that I indicate that at this stage he was very innocent.  He is only young and he happens to be part of this thing and this is how he came into this thing.

PROF DE KOKER: So, therefore, just to recap, you discussed it with other members and even members of the public, it seems, but you never discussed it with the leaders of the organisations who were involved in the march and who were injured?

LAURENS MBATHA: As I said, the reserved position came mainly because of the results, were really pathetic and were sad, because they were not expected.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Popo Molefe was specifically sent to Kimberley by the ANC to investigate the explosion.  It was public knowledge that he was here and while he was here he visited some of the injured in hospital.  Did you contact Mr Molefe about the attack and did you furnish information to him?

LAURENS MBATHA: With his presence in Kimberley I was still under Section 29, I was detained.

PROF DE KOKER: When were you detained, Major Mbatha?

LAURENS MBATHA: I think it is the first or the second of June.

PROF DE KOKER: According to our sources, Mr Molefe visited Kimberley directly after the explosion, two days after the explosion.  So, at that stage you would not have been held.

LAURENS MBATHA: You know, that one, really, I do not want to exactly say.  I recall the presence that he came, I was inside.

PROF DE KOKER: But the date of your arrest and the date of his visit differ.  We will lead evidence in that respect.  The bottom line, therefore, is, Major Mbatha, you did also not make any information available to the Executive Committee of the African National Congress who was represented by Mr Popo Molefe in investigating the issue.

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, it is true.

PROF DE KOKER: To the extent that you failed to make any report to Mr Molefe, that you failed to report to the senior members of the ANC in the Northern Cape, whose authority you recognised earlier, and to the extent that you failed to make an immediate report to Umkhonto we Sizwe, do you regard your actions as disciplined?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that stage when I, actually, responded to the matter, as I said, there was chaos at that time.  The only issue that I raised regarding the matter, I am sorry that I have to go back to, there was chaos to the effect that the suspicion was John, Vernon and Steenkamp were part of the planning process and I had to refute that factor that it was not true.  This is the part that I recall.  That was not true, those comrades ended up, actually, being the victim of the blast.  I remember responding to a report, I am not sure was it read, but I do not recall it was Popo, because I responded, because there was chaos around the area and the unfortunate members were implicated in the matter and the whole presentation of the matter was brought in the sense that as if the three members instructed me and I just executed their instruction and I made it very clear that was not true.

PROF DE KOKER: Two issues arising from that statement.  Mr John Block, Mr Vernon Patrick and Mr William Steenkamp were, therefore, suspects.  You tried to clear their names, but you did that without discussing or revealing your involvement in the matter to either of these gentlemen, any of these gentlemen.

LAURENS MBATHA: I remember the report was confidential at that stage.  I did not reveal it to them, but spoke to the person who came to the province to go through that report.

PROF DE KOKER: When, to whom was that report made?

LAURENS MBATHA: I am not sure, but it is definitely not Popo, but it was somebody from head office.  I cannot recall his name properly, but I do not think was it Thabo Rue who came, because that was the first time that I was confronted.

PROF DE KOKER: This is the first and the very important time when you where confronted and you cannot even remember who was the representative from head quarters?

LAURENS MBATHA: The way the presentation was made, started, hence, I said to you it appeared as if I was instructed by them and I said it very clearly it was not true.  I, actually, took the initiative, on my own, and I instructed Smiles.  Those poor comrades, actually, ended up being victims of the blast.

PROF DE KOKER: Quite correct, we agree on that, but my question is or actually my comment is that at this very important occasion where you were first confronted and, apparently, this is the official occasion where you informed your organisation that you actually ordered this attack, this important interview was conducted by someone whose name you cannot recall.

LAURENS MBATHA: What I recall, that very same contact was not, actually, far from the time when we had to hand over Smiles, because it was a confirmation in terms of what I was saying.

PROF DE KOKER: Do you have a date on which you made this report?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: No name to whom it was made and no date on which it was made. In which form was it made?  Was it made orally, did someone come to speak to you or did you make it in writing?

LAURENS MBATHA: It was orally.

PROF DE KOKER: How long was the interview?

LAURENS MBATHA: It, actually, did not even last for 30 minutes.