Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-07

JUDGE WILSON: ... finally arrived.  I would have liked to have apologised to the members of the public and others who are here for the hearing, which was supposed to start at 
9 a.m. I am told, for the fact that we are considerably later than that and explain that there were problems in that the applicant is in prison at the moment, and he was brought here but there was some difficulty in finding where he was being detained in this building, as it is not a building normally used for these purposes and that consequently delayed council's chance of interviewing his client and that is what has delayed the commencement of proceedings.
	Before we start on today's matter, there is one further matter I would like to raise with Mr Black and that is the case set down for Thursday, no it is set down for Friday, the last day which was an offence allegedly committed on the day of the election and we would like Mr Black to confirm that the Act has been properly amended to extend the date to - that cut off date has properly been extended to that date, but there is nothing you have to do now.  If you could in the interim period check on that.

MR BLACK: I shall do so Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, what are we starting with today?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, we will commence with the case of Mr Vernon Vosloo, it is case number 1003/96.  It is in fact the only matter that will be heard today.
	Mr Vosloo is legally represented.  He is represented by Adv Malan, instructed by Mr Nel of the firm of attorneys
M.S. van Niekerk of Pretoria.
	Mr Chairman, at the outset, if I may just mention that in this particular instance, the deceased was never identified and throughout the trial of Mr Vosloo, the identity of the deceased remained unknown.  As a consequence, next of kin and victims, we were unable to trace any of them.
	My learned friend Mr Nel and I have both made extensive efforts, research and numerous efforts in order to obtain a copy of the judgement and the court proceedings, which took place when Mr Vosloo was tried for murder.  A letter dated 4 of April was handed to me by Mr Nel which I have requested, being given to the Chairman and the learned members of the panel which sets out the various efforts that have been made.
	It would appear that it is not possible to obtain a copy of the court record, it seems to have been drawn in October some time ago, last year,  and it has not been returned to the archives.
	So the only documentation which we, on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission have in our possession, are the documents which are now before the panel and I am given to understand by Mr Malan, that he has no intention of handing additional documentation. 
	I submit therefor that the matter is ready to be heard.

JUDGE WILSON: We have had an opportunity of reading the letter of the 4th of April 1997, addressed to the Committee and would like to thank Mr Nel or the other members of the firm who made all the efforts they did to attempt to obtain the missing information.
	It appears from the letter that they personally visited
a number of places to try to get this information, and we are extremely grateful to them for it.  One matter that does cause me distress, is the fact that a file can be removed and thereafter disappear and I request that the relevant authorities continue to make enquiries as to how this file, and why this file, was removed by the woman named in the letter, on the 14th of October 1996 and to obtain a statement from her as to what she did with the file.
	And to investigate as to whether there was any ulterior motive in what she did because there have been other cases which we have been concerned with, where dockets and files have also disappeared, and I feel the time has come where the matter must be fully investigated and I request that that be done.
	Not by the firm of attorneys concerned, but by the relevant authorities, thank you.  You may proceed.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, the applicant has been convicted of a crime of murder in September 1993.   Allegedly committed on the 10th of May 1992, near Suidheuwels in the District of Johannesburg.
	The applicant is present and wish to proceed with his application.

ADV DE JAGER: Verkies U om getuienis in Afrikaans te gee?  Please stand.

VERNON VOSLOO: (sworn states)

MR BLACK: Should he stay seated Mr Chairman, I just want to enquire, may he stay seated whilst giving evidence? Thank you.

ADV MALAN: Mr Vosloo, what is your age currently?

INTERPRETER: The applicant is not using the microphone.

ADV DE JAGER: Also draw the microphone slightly closer to yourself.

ADV MALAN: You are currently in the Pretoria Central prison, where you have a prison sentence of 15 years, you were found guilty on murder.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, they are interpreting at the same time while you are talking, if you could give them some opportunity otherwise we will overlap.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can you remember the date in September on which you were found guilty and ...

VERNON VOSLOO: It was the 8th of September.

ADV MALAN: That is approximately three and a half years ago, is that correct?

VERNON VOSLOO: That is correct.

ADV MALAN: Could you indicate to the Committee where you grew up, in what part of Johannesburg you grew up?

VERNON VOSLOO: I grew up in the south of Johannesburg.  The majority of the people in that area are conservative people.

ADV MALAN: What do you mean by the term "conservative"?

VERNON VOSLOO: We all know what conservative is, these are people who believe in their own thing - their political motives and that kind of thing.

ADV MALAN: While you grew up, how did you experience the Black people in this country?

VERNON VOSLOO: As long as Black people did not come into conflict with me, and as long as their ways and goals were not enforced on me, I did not have any problems with that, but I did not want any interference with myself from them.

ADV MALAN: Before the incident for which you were found guilty, did you have any other problems with people of other colours in the population?  Did you come in conflict with
them in any way?

VERNON VOSLOO: While we grew up, there were always Black people around and from time to time one would meet people along the road, and there would be some conflict.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, just a moment, if I look at the journalists, it would appear as if everyone is having difficulty with the hearing apparatus.
	Possibly you could draw it somewhat closer to yourself, the microphone that is.  My hearing aid is humming and I can hardly hear.

ADV MALAN: Okay, just use this microphone so that everyone can hear.  Okay Mr Chairman, is this better?  Is it now better?  Thank you Mr Chairman.    Okay, Mr Vosloo, how did you then experience the people in the area where you lived and moved around there, were you in conflict with them or not?

VERNON VOSLOO: As I said, from time to time, we were in conflict.

ADV MALAN: So you showed enmity towards them, do I understand you correctly or not?

VERNON VOSLOO: There was enmity in the sense that I didn't want them to be in control of my life.

ADV MALAN: How did you regard this matter of being in control of your life, when would that be the case?

VERNON VOSLOO: Well, in a case like now, they were governing and in control, they would be in control of the whole country.

ADV MALAN: Were you then prepared to do anything in order to avoid this so that they take over control of the country, the government as you refer to it now?

VERNON VOSLOO: I wanted to do something and in due course I
did.  And the situation arose and I went and a man regarded by me as a threat to me, I killed.

ADV MALAN: What was your involvement before this incident, in political organisations in this country?