Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In 1986, '85/86, we experienced that Durban was, as it was referred to in the media, the most bombed city in the world, that in one night we'd have five bomb explosions.  You'd go from one scene to another, you'd actually walk from one scene to the other, that you experienced a motor bomb explosion a few days before Christmas, an explosion at a shopping centre where children became the victims of an act of terror and that in that same time, over Christmas that is, holiday goers and their Combi bus would be the target of another motor car bomb and it was only with the grace from above that the people after they got into the bus, nothing happened to them and this ate away at a person and you felt powerless against this onslaught which we couldn't stop.

MR VISSER: That this also motivated you to do more an more in order to try and prevent it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Absolutely Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And as time went by was there also more and more pressure on the security branch specifically to try and normalise the situation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes the pressure became worse daily, we had to do everything in our power to obtain the information and to stop this wave of violence at all costs.

MR VISSER: Now we don't have to go in that any further, we know that a few thousand people got injured and died and millions of rands worth of damage was caused in struggle of the past for political reasons, I just want to ask you this, did you ever commit any offence for any purpose other than to execute your duties as you saw them in order to stop the political struggle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I never did it for my own personal gain, it was as a police officer.

MR VISSER: We also heard and we also saw it in the ANC submissions to the Human Rights Committee of the TRC that they, in Korea, followed the principle of revolutionary warfare, that's where they got it from and that they also implemented it here in the form of the four pillars of the struggle.  We know what they are, we're not going to go through it again, the fact of the matter remains that this Committee has heard a lot of evidence concerning this and also when Mr Rosslee and Wasserman testified, it was evident that what you were dealing with was a multi-dimensional attack which took place on all the levels of society, it was political, economical, spiritual and together with that, the violent struggle, is that not true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is true, Chairperson, I think it was already decided in Vietnam.

MR VISSER: Did I say Korea?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes you did.

MR VISSER: Vietnam then.  Now what do you say about the question of intimidation, how did this influence your work?  Maybe you can just quickly tell us, from your perspective, what role did intimidation play in execution of your tasks and duties?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson as I've already said, the onslaught was multi-dimensional and from the propaganda struggle which led, the intimidation was one of that.  The experience we had as police officers was that when we investigated a case your witnesses were intimidated and consequently the evidence in court became more and more vague and we had less and less success as a result.  The masses and those who supported the government of the day was intimidated and they had to become part of the liberation struggle in some or other form.  Stay away actions were propagated, protest actions and people were forced by means of violence to form part thereof.

MR VISSER: Or rather let me ask you, you believed or did you believe that the ANC/SACP, if they were to take over in the country they'd establish a dispensation in this country which would be acceptable to everybody and would also be advantageous to everybody?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: How did you see it then?  What was your alternative if you look at the policy of the National Party?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If I can take it from the top to the bottom, the Government, the Police top structure and myself personally believed, none of us believed there could have been an alternative to the policy of the government of the day, which was the National Party.  We had a democracy which was functioning.  In retrospect, I believed that the apartheid system worked as far as I'm concerned.  If communism or the Communist Party together with the ANC and the PAC, if they were to succeed to gain control by means of their revolutionary struggle, then we would have been left in chaos and that had to be prevented at all costs and I would have given my life to prevent that.

MR VISSER: Here in Natal, well let me put it this way, it's a matter of record, the ANC/SACP Alliance propagated their struggle through certain organisations, am I right when I say that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Right here in Durban, which of these organisations came to your attention during this revolutionary struggle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The most prominent ones that figured was the United Democratic Front and the Natal Indian Congress and there were other sub-organisations, sub-structures and I cannot get to their names right now.

MR MALAN: Name of few for us please?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I'm trying to think of some.  There was a Durban Housing Action Committee, there were several protest organisations if I can term them as that.

MR MALAN: Do you not want to mention a few more so that we can get an idea.  Were they organisations of the UDF or the organisations of the ANC or were they just in a general broader alliance, what are you referring to?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I refer to a broader alliance where they were involved and the easier answer would be if we look at the individuals involved, if you found one individual who was involved with three of these organisations and his own involvement was mirrored in these protest actions that were the order of the day.

MR MALAN: I do understand that, but you were responsible for  intelligence, you were the chief of that section, you should be able to tell us to which organisations are you referring to?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: You are correct if you say I was chief of intelligence but I was chief of MK Intelligence.

MR MALAN: So you did not work with this, please excuse me, I did not comprehend the question properly initially.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, it must be my fault that I do not put the question clearly but just to address the issue that was addressed by Commissioner Malan.
	Is it correct that the ANC amongst others was a banned organisation during this time in 1987/1988?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And is there any indication that organisations such as the UDF were actually an ANC organisation under the cover of something else?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is true and that is how we saw it and we viewed it as an internal wing of the ANC.

MR VISSER: Yes and if I'm correct and Mr Malan can correct me but I think that the TRC in it's report found that the UDF incited violence?   Was that your experience?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: I can't say you're correct or incorrect, I don't know if that was the finding.

MR VISSER: I speak from what I read in the newspapers and not from the report itself.  However, just to get back to the issue of intimidation and pressure by other organisations and the ANC you, in Natal, had to deal with necklace murders?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, we dealt with necklace method, not in the same manner as in the Eastern Cape, but it did occur here as well.