Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The following applicant is Mr Potsane, he will be led by my learned friend, Mr Lengane.

MR POTSANE: (sworn states)

MR LENGANE: Good afternoon Mr Potsane.  Before we commence with the questioning can I please confirm with you again, you are testifying in which language, Sotho, English?

MR POTSANE: ...[inaudible]

MR LENGANE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we could get is name for the record.

MR LENGANE: Please give us your full names Mr Potsane.

MR POTSANE: My name is Neo Potsane.

MR LENGANE: Mr Potsane, you were born in March 1960 in Soweto, is that correct?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: And in 1977 you left the country to join Umkhonto weSizwe abroad, is that correct?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: At the time you were 17, were you at school at the time or were you employed?

MR POTSANE: Yes, I was still a student at the time.

MR LENGANE: So you left school for exile to join Umkhonto abroad?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: Mr Potsane, could you kindly tell the Committee what it is that motivated you at that time at that age to take that step?

MR POTSANE: Well my political awareness came about with the events of June 1976, when I actually saw people rising up and going to the streets.  Although I didn't understand much at the time, but the events that came on afterwards, people getting detained, people getting shot, you know people, some of them I knew very well.  They would come back and tell us what was actually happening behind bars and how they were being tortured.  Those things actually told me that we are dealing with people who did not have human value and were intent on destroying us as a people.  That is how I actually got motivated you know.

MR LENGANE: When you say we were dealing with people who did not have human value, who are you talking about?  Will you please clarify that?

MR POTSANE: I'm talking about the previous regime.

MR LENGANE: When you left in 1977 you went to Lesotho, is that correct?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: And remained there for how long?

MR POTSANE: I remained for about six months, that is from June to May of 1978.

MR LENGANE: What happened then in May of 1978 onwards?

MR POTSANE: In May of 1978 I was able to go to Swaziland and eventually I was taken by members of the African National Congress to Angola where I began my training around June of 1978.

MR LENGANE: Yes, please carry on.

MR POTSANE: Well I trained I think from, it could have been August because when we arrived there was no training schedule so we had to wait a little bit and then I think from August our training went on until May of the following year.

MR LENGANE: Yes.  I will skip the other things which happened between then and 1985, when you told me during our consultations that you came into contact with Mr Masina, Mr Masango and Mr Makhura among others, is that correct?  Is that when you first came into contact with them, in 1985/1984?

MR POTSANE: Yes, in 1985.  I just felt in me that I was actually ready to go and make my contributions here in South Africa ...[intervention]

MR LENGANE: Sorry to interrupt you there.  We will come to that in the fullness of time.  I just wanted to know if before 1985 you had already met any of your fellow applicants anywhere in Zambia, Angola or any other place?

MR POTSANE: Before 1985 I had already met two of my applicants who are present now, that is Ting Ting Masango and Joseph Makhura.

MR LENGANE: So you must have come to meet with them because you were members of the same army, liberation army of the African National Congress, is that correct?

MR POTSANE: Yes.  At different times we found ourselves in the very same camp and getting to know one another.  That is how I got to know them.

MR LENGANE: So in 1985 you said to us that, you told me at least in consultation, that you then approached Chris Hani and asked of him to do certain things for you, could you briefly tell the Committee what it is that you approached Mr Hani about and the outcome of that approach?

MR POTSANE: Well in 1985 I felt that actually I was ready to come and make my contributions here in South Africa and at that time I had already made contact with Jabu Masina whom at that time I'd known that they were going to come here to come and fight here in the country.
	I told Jabu that I would like to be part of their unit but then are process that, you don't just jump into a unit and say I'm going because things are done in a certain order, in a certain fashion.  So I actually had to go to meet the late comrade Chris Hani and told him of my desire to go home and make my contribution there and he said he would take it up with the PMC, which is the Political Military Council, which he did and my request was approved and I was actually allowed to join the unit.

MR LENGANE: Mr Potsane, when you made this approached and when it was finally approved, did you know exactly what mandate Mr Masina and his unit were given to go and carry out in their imminent deployment then?

MR POTSANE: Not at that time.

MR LENGANE: Mr Masina has given evidence here that he was appointed as chief of the assassination squad, you're saying that you did not know that they were being deployment, they were about to be deployed to come and do operations focused on that.

MR POTSANE: Well let me make it clear that at that time I was talking to Mr Masina, I will understand why he did not tell me exactly the nature of that task he was coming to do here in South Africa because that was part of, it was still under some kind of a secret you know ...[intervention]

MR LENGANE: Excuse me, sorry to interrupt you.  The answer to the question is that you did not know?

MR POTSANE: Yes.

MR LENGANE: The exact nature of the operations they were being deployed for in the country?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: What then was your interest in joining them? Please take it slowly.

MR POTSANE: My interest in joining the unit was to come and fight here in South Africa, to make a contribution too because when I left the country it was with the aim of coming back and fighting at some point in my life.

MR LENGANE: Should we understand you Mr Potsane, to be saying that your desire was to come and advance the armed struggle of the ANC and Umkhonto weSizwe, is that what you mean by fight?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: And you say that that was approved by the highest decision-making body at that level, the PMC?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: Well then this was approved, you were infiltrated into the country, when was this and with whom were you infiltrated into the country?

MR POTSANE: I was infiltrated in 1986 together with Joseph Makhura, Mandla Shezi and Rufus.  We came in to join the two applicants, Jabu Masina and Ting Ting Masango who were already inside the country.

MR LENGANE: And so you joined this unit inside the country?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: Please tell us what happened then, your activities within there and so and so on, up to the point where the incident that we are here about occurred.

MR POTSANE: Well there were many incidents that occurred you know including other operations which are not the scope of this Commission.  Basically Ting Ting used to stay in Winterveld and Joseph Makhura used to stay in Mabopane and Mandla Shezi used to stay in Mabopane too.  Mr and Jabu Masina were staying in Mamelodi.  That is how we were spread out.

MR LENGANE: Yes, please carry on Mr Potsane.