Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

DINA ANVARI: I realise instructions seem to be the key word in here.  Now from whom it came and how politically motivated, that is where I have my question, and what objective it achieved for the political organisation.
	You mentioned, it was mentioned in various testimonies that one of the people who were killed knew the Bahai Centre and the Bahai's and basically he was familiar with the area where it was situated in, is that true?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so Ma'am.

DINA ANVARI: I also remember hearing that on Saturday they were ordered, if I am not mistaken and they arrived in Mdantsane on Saturday afternoon and carried it on Sunday morning, is that also correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No Ma'am, they came mid-week at Mdantsane and then that incident happened on a Sunday.

DINA ANVARI: What is it that I heard about a Saturday, I don't know, that is what I thought.
	Anybody knowing the Bahai Centre, familiar with the area, knows that the Bahai's do not as a regular part of what you might call church, meet every Saturday, we don't have regular meetings.  We might meet in the middle of the week or at Saturday or Sunday, we don't have a service on every Sunday.
	That Sunday, these three people were invited to be there, and that just happened to come by invitation only.  How did this person know, or your group know, that we were going to be there on that Sunday?  It was not a popular understanding, it wasn't something that would happen every Sunday and besides the Bahai's of Ciskei and Mdantsane were basically blacks.
	We, the Bahai's of East London and King William's Town would help them with the functions that they do.  The whites as such were never there on a regular basis.  How did they find out on that Sunday that we were going to be there?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Ma'am, I cannot lie.  I will not lie to you as to how they got to know that.  I do not know too how they got to know that white people would be there that day, whilst white people were not commonly at that church.
	I will not lie to you, I cannot lie to you as to whether they knew, how they knew as to whether white people would be there that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand, as I understand the questioner she said that the Bahai Church, this church did not meet regularly on Sundays, they met on various days of the week.  So it was not just a question of knowing that there would be white people that day, but knowing that the Church would meet on that day.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I may have failed to answer that part.  I do not know them, as to how they got to know that on that Sunday there would be white people or during that weekend, there would be a service at Bahai.
	As the Chairperson says that church sometimes holds its services during weekdays, I do not know Ma'am.

DINA ANVARI: Again, I am trying to find out how could anybody again in Butterworth know anything about what is going on in Mdantsane about you know, I mean you had particular instructions to be there on that Sunday and carry this out.  How if anybody knew the Bahai's, they know that we don't meet regularly, how did they know that on that Sunday there will be white people to kill there?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't know Ma'am, but let me explain to the question that said a person at Butterworth, how can he or she know what happens at Mdantsane.  Let me try and explain what happens in the Army.
	In the Army Ma'am, we have sources anywhere.  We have sources anywhere, who bring in information to our bases that may be necessary.
	I am sure that is one of the reasons that they got to know that that day, on that particular Sunday there would be a service on Bahai.  I do not want to accuse church members that perhaps there might be one amongst them, who gathered information on our behalf, but I am trying to explain that that is one of the ways that liberation movements operate with.

DINA ANVARI: I am sorry, with all due respect, you will not accuse any of our members for that.
	The point is if this mission was supposed to have happened, if they had gone two weeks beforehand, there were almost 50 white people there, they could have had a really fun day that day, why they chose these three on that day, that is the question? 
	I realise that you don't seem to have any answers today.  The other question that I want to ask is that you talked about, both of you talked about a dangerous, danger behind this mission and the fact that you had to go back to Transkei as soon as possible.
	Now, on the other missions like the Highgate for example, or Da Gama, you came in, you went to do something at Da Gama, you couldn't, you went on the bridge, you couldn't, you went back to Highgate, you passed Highgate, you went to the station, you decided which you say that you cannot make a decision of how to choose the target, but you decided you don't want the station, and you went to Highgate, making a decision again, which you say you cannot make, and raided there, stayed during the weekend in Mdantsane and then go on Monday, do Da Gama and then you go home.
	Why is it that you weren't afraid through any of these, that the Police would catch you, but you were afraid that the Police will catch you at the Bahai Centre, bearing in fact that with all due respect to the Mdantsane Police, whenever anything happens at the Bahai Centre, a burglary, they showed almost two hours later.  Why were you afraid of this one?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see Ma'am, there is not a single mission where a thought about Police does not occur.  The only thing that happened is that we must check the place where we are, how far is it from the Police when they are called, whether they will take long to come to the area where we are at.
	For instance, when we went to the station, East London station bar, our road was via Cambridge, but when we passed the Highgate Hotel, we noted that the Highgate Hotel was full, there was something like a disco on.
	We then decided that it is not necessary for us to go to the station bar, East London, let us rather make a u-turn at the railway station at Cambridge, and come back, hit the Highgate Hotel.  What our calculations were, were that the station bar in town, there are many Policemen in contradiction, we have better chances of running away at Highgate.
	In the vicinity of Highgate there is no Police station on our way, except the one at Mdantsane.  This means the danger will only be from behind.  When people from Highgate Hotel called the Police, we shall have reached Mdantsane.  When they tell the Police at Mdantsane, we would have dumped the car already and have split.
	I am trying to say Ma'am, there is not a single operation where you don't think about the problem of the Police, because you know you can be arrested, killed or get hurt.
	It is not only the Bahai case where we thought about the situation of being arrested.  In all our actions, we did think about the question of being arrested.  Even at Highgate we shot with the rifle grenade, not wanting to go in physically, hit from a distance, not being seen, and then disappear.
	Even at the Da Gama case we thought to use the rifle grenade, hit from a distance and simply disappear fast.  Even if the Police are called, we will be very far off.  All the time, we were thinking about what we do, we must be able to retreat properly and not have casualties or people who are hurt, that is what we are checking.