Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I would like to argue it at the appropriate time that the use of that word is not a computer error and in order for me to do that I must test his explanation that this is simply a computer error and the question I'm asking Mr Mthembu is, if this was an error and if you didn't intend to use the word hit squads, why did you not make that clear in paragraph 11 on page 26?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know how can I explain so that you understand that this was a mistake.  When you look at paragraph 11.1 on page 26, if you read from the beginning to the end, I'm sure you'll be able to see what that paragraph says.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, when you were being led by your counsel you corrected a mistake in one of the affidavits - my question is simply this, why did you not correct the mistake in paragraph 6 on page 5?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We did correct it with my counsel, I don't know whether you do not have knowledge of the fact that it was a mistake indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the use of the hit squad in your affidavit was discussed with your legal representative and that you corrected that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, we did correct it because I don't necessarily agree with this word.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  I think what counsel wants to find out is that when you commenced your evidence before this Committee, you corrected certain mistakes which we were told appear in the document, in some of the documents that you had signed.  Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: The question then is because of the use of the word hit squad is a mistake, why was that not brought to the attention of the Committee at the commencement of your evidence?  Do you understand the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand.

MS PRETORIUS: May I intervene?  May I just tell the Committee...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Pretorius, will you just hold until the witness has answered the question?

MS PRETORIUS: I'll do that.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I knew I thought this had been corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Advocate?

MS PRETORIUS: This first statement from page 4 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just make a note of this first?
Yes please ma'am?

MS PRETORIUS: There's a statement that I only knew that it was going to be fault with this on the 5th July so the witness did not go through it again before he was here before the Committee on Monday Morning.  That's the one statement that he did not go through with a fine tooth comb as he did the others whilst he was in jail, in prison.  I only saw him here that morning again.  So this is the only statement he did not have in his possession, which he did not know was going to be used at this Amnesty Hearing because it was annexed to the application for this Sebokeng Amnesty, it was annexed to the Boipatong Amnesty Hearing - if that may help Mr Berger in that way - that this was annexed to the Sebokeng Amnesty Hearing.

MR BERGER: With respect, Mrs Pretorius, you told us at the start of these proceedings that although this affidavit was for that purpose, you canvassed it with the witness and you then confirmed on oath that it was correct so that doesn't help us anything ...[intervention]

MS PRETORIUS: No, well it's the only explanation that I can give from my side, that he did not have it to go through it in prison word by word again.

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson, with respect, that intervention from my learned friend doesn't help the situation because I'm not in the position to test that, but I'll go further.
	In fact, Mr Mthembu, the error that you described at page 22 in your earlier evidence, you described as a typing error, the one that you corrected in paragraph 1 on page 22 and you confirmed the affidavit from pages 4 - 8 and 8 - 17 as being true and correct.  In any event, you say that you discussed the question of this paragraph relating to hit squads with your counsel and you informed your counsel that it was a mistake, that is your evidence, am I right, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And that was shortly before you gave evidence on Monday, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, it was shortly before I appeared.

MR BERGER: On Monday, before this Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, it was on Saturday, on Saturday.

MR BERGER: It was on Saturday, the Saturday that's just passed that you made that communication, communicated that information to your counsel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that was on the Saturday before we came here.

MR BERGER: And you said that your reference to hit squads was a mistake, a typographical error?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, we discussed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's leave ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, although it appears on it's face to have been a short day, it's been a long day for the interpreters.  We intend rising at four o'clock so at a convenient time you will indicate and then we can take the adjournment.

MR BERGER: I'll do that Mr Chairperson.
	Let's leave the terminology hit squads out of the picture for the time being, Mr Mthembu, and let's call them self-protection units.  These people, who formed part of the self-protection unit, were not residents of the Kwamadala Hostel, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: They came from Msinga in Kwa-Zulu Natal, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: There were forty to fifty of them and you were afraid of them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You had to support them, you had to feed them and you had to obey them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct, they were protecting the community.

MR BERGER: And if you didn't feed them, protect them or feed them or obey them and support them, then they would kill you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't think that they would have killed me, they may have reprimanded me somehow but they would not have killed me.

MR BERGER: In paragraph 8 of page 6 of your affidavit you say there were about 200 - 400 people working at that stage and everybody had to pay otherwise they would have been killed because we were all afraid of the Msinga contingent.  Were you or were you not afraid of being killed by the Msinga Contingent if you did not obey them, pay them, feed them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think everybody is afraid of death.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps we should adjourn at this point.  I intend to question the witness a lot longer on this question of the Msinga contingent so perhaps this would be an appropriate point in which to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: These hearings will now be adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.30.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS