Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

MS SEROKE: What had George done, according to the police who were asking you these questions?

HILDA PHAHLE: The police never told us anything.  Even the day when they first came there on the 10th of December,  I asked one of the policeman.  They wouldn't allow us to - they searched the house, the main house.  George had a room in the yard.  After searching they went to the yard, they found other rooms occupied. Then there was one room that was
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locked and they wanted to know whose room that was.  The tenants said it is George's room.  So they came up to us and they demanded the key. We went and opened and I still remember George had been there during the week, he had bought some underpants and vests and I put them on his bed.  So when I wanted to get that, he drove me away, in the vulgarest language he can. I asked one black man what has happened?  He just shook his head and said ( ... not interpreted ...) and I knew what that "akul, akul" was.   Except the Press, which everybody was able to follow, and the TV that I was able to relate, they knew more than what  knew, things that I did not know about George, which I cannot relate even now, because I do not know whether those things were true.  You relate a thing that you know is true but not what you hear and say on paper.

MS SEROKE: Was George a member of any political party?

HILDA PHAHLE: I cannot say yes and I cannot say no, because during those days if you belonged to the ANC you had to move underground. If you belonged to any political party, you had to move underground and not underground to sabotage, but you know, you had to lie low, because you would be in trouble. So I wouldn't say I knew that George belonged to any political organisation or what. I wouldn't say I knew.

MS SEROKE: Why did he leave the country and decide to go and settle in Botswana?

HILDA PHAHLE: Well, they looked for him, they wanted him, they knew best what he had done. He skipped the country and he settled in Botswana.  That we did not discuss because we could not discuss anything.  He skipped without telling me, I did not even know that he was skipping.

MS SEROKE: And both you and your husband, after the
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continual harassment that you had to go through, must have felt that if George is away in another country, surely he now should be safe and free. And lo, this happened then. How did you feel about that?

HILDA PHAHLE: Well, George, as I say, we lived on lies, I read that, we lived on lies.  When they raided us, whenever they raided us, they would say have you heard from him, and we would say no.  Then they would tap the phone and
say "die ding praat, jong, julle lieg" - (this thing talks, man, you are lying), which meant that our phone was tapped.  He was getting in touch with us all the time and were able to, but we would not call him by his name.  We had to somehow get in touch with him somehow. He would phone us, but when he ultimately settled with Lindi now, there we now had direct contact with him.

MS SEROKE: When they were in Botswana and Levi joined them, before the massacre, George was just doing his business.  Could you tell us what this business was that he was doing?  Because you mentioned something like he was carrying, you know, people in ...

HILDA PHAHLE: George had left the country, I think he had a few cents with him. When he got there, I think he - I say I think, because I didn't see - bought an old something, which I think probably Mrs Malaza would explain what it, she knows.  Something just to transport people from one place to another in Botswana. I don't know whether it was a bakkie or what.  He grew steadily, hired someone's licence and started running some buses there in Botswana, between Labatsi and Gaberone.

MS SEROKE: Well, we heard your request, both you and Mrs Malazy, that you would like at least their remains to be
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sent back home, so that you could do whatever honours you want to perform. We will recommend this to our R & R and see if such a thing could be possible.

HILDA PHAHLE: We would be very grateful.

MS SEROKE: I will ask my colleagues to ask questions if, they have any.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Joyce. Hlenywe Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: For me it is not a question, it is just a small comment.  Regarding your request that you would like their remains to be brought back to this country.  I just want to indicate to you that within the Commission already we have advanced in terms of formulating policy guidelines as to how should people who struggled outside, who didn't survive, be honoured back in their country.  As I was listening I was looking at Mrs Malaza and I was thinking of Lindi a lot.  Lindi, during our student years was confident, very independent, immature for our age and within Sasso(?) she played a major role during our student years.  It will be important for people like those to be remembered in this country so that that kind if history is not forgotten. Much as we are sad today, but we are proud of them.  They played a major role.  We wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for people like themselves, who made major sacrifices and sacrificed their youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phahle, Mrs Malaza and Mrs Mtembu, I can't really add anything to what you have told us. I can't add any comfort, but I think I would like to think that the message that you have given us today, which has come through so clearly, and so eloquently from all three of you, talking ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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about this incident, and about the effects on your children, I would like to think that that is a message that has come through not only to us and to all of us who are sitting here and who have been so privileged to hear it, that I would like to think it is also a message that is going out to those people whom you have named.  
 You have described very graphically the activities and the responses of those in authority, particularly those in authority in the Army, the SADF.  Recently in Cape Town there was a submission from the SADF, talking about their activities.  There was no understanding, no recognition in that statement of any of the realities that you have told us about today.  That is one area that we need responses from, that we need them to come forward to answer the charges that you have laid in such clear ways.  We need responses from the people who were the superiors at that time, in 1988, 1985. We need responses as well, you have named also very graphically. 
 You have named what happened the day afterwards, back here in Johannesburg.  What was done in the media, and how the media added to the triumphalism of that attack.  That also is something that needs to be responded to, that needs to be faced, that needs to be admitted to and for which there needs to be an apology or an explanation or both, from those quarters. 
 I would say thank you very much for that. Because what you have given us is a very graphic account which goes to the heart of everybody, and which is unanswerable in the way that you have put it.  For that I would like to thank all three of you very, very much.  Our condolences go to you for that experience.  
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 Just by way of tribute, I think, before we break for lunch, we are very pleased that a local choir from Alex has come in to sing one short song.  Linda Twhala will usher them in. So if people could please sit quietly while they sing for us.  Then we will break for lunch.
 Good people, please, good people please keep quiet and just remain quiet for a few minutes more, please, out of respect for the previous three witnesses.  Please remain quiet. It won't take long.
CHOIR FROM ALEXANDRA
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