Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I also omitted to say, Mr Chairman, was that the magistrate concerned was very shortly after that promoted to Regional Magistrate and he was a known member of the Broederbond operating in Krugersdorp and I believe it was due to his Broederbond connections that I was subjected to these disgraceful tactics.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Mr Derby-Lewis, do you still believe in separate development?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I do, Mr Chairman, yes.

UNKNOWN: Does it follow that you do not accept a united South Africa with a common citizenship if you are a believer in separate development?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I do not believe that a united South Africa is the solution for what is a problem which was resolved elsewhere in the world through separate development.

UNKNOWN: Do you not believe that the problems of the country can be solved with, in a united South Africa with a common citizenship?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it is not only that I do not believe it, but it is quite obvious to me, if one looks at what is happening in KwaZulu Natal, that it is a problem, it, and I do not think it will be resolved.  It is ...

UNKNOWN: So that as you are sitting there now you think that the war is still going on.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I believe it is still going on and is there, in KwaZulu Natal certainly, and is there anything to prove me wrong.

UNKNOWN: And that the attempts to have a united South Africa with a common citizenship, certainly, are not consistent with separate development that you believe in?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman

UNKNOWN: And if you have an opportunity, presumably, you will feel obliged, will you not, to try and change the preamble of the countries Constitution?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I believe that I have done my bit as far as the freedom struggle of my people is concerned.  I have been detained in prison for almost four and a half years, I have been able to see my grandchildren once in that time, because I did not want to subject them to the, sorry, Mr Chairman, there is somebody else talking on the line here, I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: I appeal again, please, do not make your comments whilst the witness is giving evidence.  We cannot hear properly what he is saying.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I was explaining, that in the four and a half years, approximately, that I have been detained I have had access to my grandchildren once, because I do not believe that the prison environment is a suitable environment for them to be exposed to.  I have been isolated from my friends and family.  I explained the problem with the visits which has only recently been remedied, Mr Chairman, and I, quite honestly, must say, in addition, that I really do not know what the peoples' reaction will be to what I have done.  I do not know, because I have not discussed it with them, because I think that it would be presumptuous of me in the first instance.
	Mr Chairman, I have already, should my application be successful, I have already decided that I am going to confine myself to my family and my friends who have stood by me so loyally during this period and I think I owe them something.  Besides that, I owe it to myself.  I love my children, I love my grandchildren and that is one of the things that I regret about this whole situation and that is that I have not been able to effect this love.  I have even compensated with, sorry Mr Chairman, did you want to say something.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether this answer you are giving is an answer to the question, as to whether, as far as you are concerned, the war in which you considered yourself engaged, whether in your mind, that war is still carrying on, ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... as far as you are concerned.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am trying to explain this, Mr Chairman, and ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, you have told us that you have been in prison ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... and your personal difficulties while you were in prison.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that does not answer, pointedly, the question.  In your mind, are you committed to the ongoing war in which you were involved?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am no longer committed to any arms struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In fact, I must qualify that and say also, Mr Chairman, that I see a ray of sunshine in the present Constitution of this country which purports to uphold the self-determined, self-determination rights of peoples and I believe that that could be peacefully resolved and I am sure that my party is already discussing along those lines, but as far as I am concerned, the arms struggle is over and, as far as I am concerned, it would appear even that my political career is over, that I have no further purpose as far as my people are concerned.

UNKNOWN: Mr Derby- ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, might this be a convenient stage to  take the adjournment?

UNKNOWN: Chair, if I may finish just ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

UNKNOWN: ... the point ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

UNKNOWN: ... Mr Chairman.  Listen, Mr Derby-Lewis, please.
"We, the people of South Africa, believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.".
Do you accept that or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I believe that my people are entitled to a territory where they are able to exercise their right of self-determination.

UNKNOWN: You, therefore, disagree with the first, one of the first principles of the Constitution,
"that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our ...",
you do not believe in that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not totally familiar with the new Constitution, but I would interpret the clause relating to the self-determination right of peoples as in conflict with that.

UNKNOWN: And also that there must be a common citizenship?  Do you believe in that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as far as my people are concerned, as far as I am concerned, I acknowledge what appears, I take note of what appears in the preamble, but I also say that I have finished with a political role ...

UNKNOWN: The question ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and I am sure that my people, the leaders of my people will not leave it at that.

UNKNOWN: The question was do you believe in a common citizenship which is inconsistent with your policy of separate development?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I do not believe in that, Mr Chairman, no.

UNKNOWN: I did not hear the answer, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I said I do not believe in that, but I ...

UNKNOWN: You do not believe in that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: It may be a convenient stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under oath).

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Derby-Lewis, I want to turn to your acquisition of the gun which you handed over to Mr Walus in order that he may kill Chris Hani.  Firstly, let us start with your reason for acquiring this gun.  In your statements you have said that you acquired this gun primarily for self protection.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  You also told us that you understood the Kimberley resolution as a call to collect arms so that if the de Klerk Government or any other Government prohibited people from acquiring firearms, there would be a stockpile available to the right for self-protection?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I cannot recall that I said that that was decided at the actual congress, but this was common cause and there were already stories floating around that weapons ...

UNKNOWN: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... were going to be confiscated.

UNKNOWN: Even before the August 1992 Kimberley Conference?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I know that people have been talking about this for quite a while, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Before August 1992?