Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Samuel is putting to you is that if you stayed at the CR Swart Police Station, which is in town, in Durban, and you were going there while doing operations in Durban over a period of weeks, every night, to sleep and getting up every morning and leaving those premises, you were at a far greater risk of being identified as policemen and therefore he's putting it to you that you would stay at Winkelspruit more often than not, when in Durban.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: And I want to put it to you, on the night in question when Ms Kubheka got killed or had passed away, that you all - in fact, you also stayed on at Winkelspruit throughout that evening.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  So it's possible that you were there.
	Now Mr Mbane will say that after you all had handed Ms Kubheka to your handlers at - after you all arrived at Winkelspruit, Ms Kubheka was interrogated.  Have you got anything to say to that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't know what they were doing, there's no other way she could have been interrogated.

MR SAMUEL: He will say ..(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry.
	What do you mean "there's no other way she could have been interrogated"?

INTERPRETER: He's actually meaning that there's nothing they could have done other than interrogate her.

MR SAMUEL: So you confirm that she was interrogated?

CHAIRPERSON: My understanding of his answer Mr Samuel, is that he doesn't know but he assumes that she was being interrogated.  He didn't go so far as to say that he actually witnessed it.  You can perhaps ask that if you want to.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that during this interrogation he had heard Ms Kubheka scream.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That's what he heard, but I don't know.

MR SAMUEL: And I want to put it to you that the road that you referred to is in fact behind the building where Ms Kubheka was interrogated and it would have been very easy if someone had screamed in that building you all would have been the first to hear before the noise of the traffic behind the building.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not hear her.

MR SAMUEL: And Mr Mbane will say that when it came time to sleep he had slept in the veranda.  We had an in loco inspection and we've noticed that there is a place similar to a veranda, and that is where he slept.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we noted that at the inspection in loco there wasn't a roof above the veranda, but there was evidence that at the time there was a roof that went from the one room to the other, which made it a covered veranda.

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is possible.

MR SAMUEL: And if he had slept where he says he had slept in that veranda, he would have a clear view of the going on if that door was open in that room,

CHAIRPERSON: Well who has a clear view when they're sleeping?

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, I didn't mean fast asleep, if he was lying down he was supposed to be sleeping.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not be able to say, because I was at a distance from that building because I was in a kombi.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that whenever you resided or stayed over at Winkelspruit, you always slept in a kombi and on the night in question you remained in the kombi.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Was I alone in the kombi?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) It's not for you to ask questions.  What he's saying is, when you slept, you yourself slept at Winkelspruit, you always slept in the kombi and on the night in question, the night that Ms Kubheka was brought to Winkelspruit, you were in the kombi.  That's what he's saying.  Do you agree with that or not?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I do, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And he will say that on the night in question you slept alone in the kombi whilst he slept with Mr Dube in the veranda.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If I remember well, Dube was sleeping at the back seat of the kombi and I was sleeping in the middle seat of the kombi, then in front you'll not be able to sleep.

MR SAMUEL: Now you agree with us that you slept in the kombi and you did not sleep at CR Swart on the night in question.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I stated that I was lying down in the kombi, I used to sleep and wake up, up to a point where I raised my complaint that I want to change and wash.  I don't remember staying there the whole night.

MR SAMUEL: Now Mr Mbane will say that he had noticed when Ms Kubheka's body was removed from that room.  I'm sure you would not have seen that, so you cannot admit or deny that.  Am I right?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If I was sleeping on the veranda like Mr Mbane, I could have, but I did not because I was in the kombi.

MR SAMUEL: So you cannot admit or deny whether Mr Mbane in fact saw the removal of the body?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not Chairperson, because the way he stated he's saying he was sleeping on the veranda and is able to explain what happened.  I was at a distance, I did not see what happened.

MR SAMUEL: Do you recall whether Mr Miyeza(?) was present on that night?

INTERPRETER: Can you repeat that question.  Who?

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat the name and the question  please.

MR SAMUEL: Sorry.
	Do you recall whether Mr Miyeza arrived there after you all had gone to Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was told by Jimmy that Miyeza was present.

MR SAMUEL: That was on the same day, did Jimmy tell you that on the same day or the next day?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether it was on that day or any other day.

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy will say that he noticed Mr Miyeza assist in carrying the body.  You don't know about that, am I right?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I do not, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now if Mr Mbane, Jimmy was paid for the operations that he was engaged in, would you know about it?

INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question again.

MR SAMUEL: If Mr Jimmy Mbane was paid for the operations that he was involved in, would you know about it?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would know that he would be paid, but I would not know how much.

MR SAMUEL: Do you agree that Mr Mbane was paid for certain operations, am I right?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: You were not present when Mr Mbane handed Ms Kubheka the AK47 rifles, am I right?  That was prior to you being introduced to Ms Kubheka.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not see Jimmy having an AK47, or handing over the AK47 to Ms Kubheka.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Radebe?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, I do.  Thank you.
	Mr Radebe, when Coetzer instructed you to bring Ms Kubheka, did he tell you who to bring her to?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I knew that I was taking her to white members, but he did not mention names specifically.

MS THABETHE: Were there any plans, or were you instructed where to take her to?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, there was a plan.  I don't remember well as to whether we should take her from Kentucky or from the station, or near the sea.  I don't remember well or where we handed her over to white members.  I don't know as to whether it was near the sea or not.

MS THABETHE: When you were instructed to go and get Ms Kubheka, were any reasons advanced why she had to be brought to the white members?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: What reasons were advanced?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It's because we should try by all means to erase our trail, or to prevent any trail for us to be identified.

MS THABETHE: I don't think maybe you understand my question.  My question is, when you were told or instructed to bring Ms Kubheka to the white members, were you given reasons why she had to be brought to the white members?