Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it doesn't appear from the 
affidavits themselves, but I was involved specifically with 
drawing these affidavits, although I did not draw the final 
version.  That's why I see it now for the first time.  It 
does relate specifically to this fact.  Capt Mentz can also 
testify to that because he was present when this was done.  
So I can give you a confirmation that this, it relates to 
this specific incident.

JUDGE WILSON: Have they been present when he gave evidence?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairman, they were not present when 
he gave evidence, but there was a tape-recording made which 
they listened to, of the evidence which Capt Mentz made 
himself, Mr Chairman. But Mr Chairman, I am presenting this 
affidavit mainly to confirm the correctness of the 
application as it stands in the application papers.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you again, please, give us the 
reference of Brian Ngqulunga's application, what was it?  
Schedule ...?
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 156

JUDGE WILSON: 53, page 53.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, yes, it was on page 53, 
Schedule 4.  I beg your pardon for the oversight.  I won't 
say who was responsible for the final draft, Mr Chairman It 
is my attorney sitting next to me, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you 
wish to put this witness?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I have no questions to put to this 
witness.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, just to respond quickly before the 
Chair and the Committee members are perplexed by the 
envelope that I have just sent up.

HASSAN MALL: Yes?

UNKNOWN: The Chair and the Committee will recall that in 
Pretoria I was requested to obtain Annexure A to the post-
mortem report of Brian Ngqulunga.  Mr Chairman, I did take 
some means of obtaining the Annexure A.  I went to the 
Garankua police station on the 4th of March 1997 and I was 
referred to a Constable Chelo Lusaba who is dealing with 
this type of matters.  She together with another policeman 
entered the store room and they looked for the docket, which 
they could not find.  Unfortunately I said to her that I 
need a statement from her that the docket got lost in their 
possession and she promised to fax it down to me, but she 
has not done so.  
	Mr Chairman, in the meantime, I got hold of the 
contents of the envelope before you.  Now these are the 
photos of Brian Ngqulunga where he was found, how he was 
found and the wounds and everything that was done by the 
police.  I think this will or may substitute the absence of 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 157

<UNKNOWN>: Annexure A.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: This is in lieu of what we were expecting, that 
was Annexure A to the post-mortem report?

UNKNOWN: That is so, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: And Mr Du Plessis, have you had sight of this 
document, these photographs and documents?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have had sight of the 
documents.

HASSAN MALL: Well, these documents, including the 
photographs will go in as Exhibit CC.

UNKNOWN: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, is it not DD, Mr 
Chairman?

HASSAN MALL: I'm sorry, EXHIBIT DD, you are right.  Yes, 
thank you.

HASSAN MALL: I have before me a memorandum which has just 
been handed to us now. It is addressed to the Amnesty 
Committee, from Mr Pik Botha.  Do you have a copy, has that 
been served on you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have, thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Du Plessis, do you have a copy of that?

UNKNOWN: I do have a copy, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: We haven't had time to read this and I am 
wondering whether we should take a short adjournment, to 
enable you to read it as well, and to consider what you 
should do about it.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have only received it now, Mr 
Chairman. I would like to take it up with Brig Cronje and 
perhaps convey to the Committee just his view on this and 
his reaction on this.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 158

UNKNOWN: I cannot recall his evidence in any event 
as having been to the effect that he factually knows or knew 
that Minister Pik Botha knew about it.  I will take it up.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, whether the Press may have reported it.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it may have been reported differently.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, very well. Before we take this 
adjournment, apart from that, is there any other matter that 
has to be dealt with?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, at this point in time, in 
respect of evidence, there are no other matters.  In respect 
of the matter of Brig Cronje relating to the Swapo incident, 
we have decided to withdraw that matter.

HASSAN MALL: Alright, just let me get that.

UNKNOWN: With reservation of all our rights, Mr 
Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Which number is it?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, that is page 39 of Brig 
Cronjes application.

JUDGE WILSON: Schedule 2?

UNKNOWN: Schedule as, as it pleases you.

ADV DE JAGER: What do you exactly mean, withdraw with 
reservation of all your rights?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, what I mean and I intended to 
explain that now, is that we wish to consider our position 
regarding this application.  The cut-off date for the final 
applications is in May and we want a little bit more time to 
consider our position in this regard.  If we make a decision 
to launch an application in regard to this matter again, we 
will do so.  But at this point in time we have decided not 
to go ahead at this point in time with that application, Mr 
Chairman.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 159

JUDGE MGOEPE: So are you just asking to have it removed 
from our roll?

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Or are you in fact withdrawing the 
application?

UNKNOWN: No, the effect is that I am asking for it 
to be removed.  What we will do is to, if we decide to go 
ahead with the application, we will lodge a formal 
application, again in the same fashion with the same 
contents, just to make hundred per cent sure that there is 
no problem.  We, however, want some time to consider that 
application and to decide if we really want to go ahead with 
that application.  So I am asking the Committee to strike it 
from the roll of the hearings.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, very well.  You are granted leave to 
remove this matter from the roll.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, then 
the only matter that - actually two matters that are left, 
would be the record of the Harms Commission proceedings 
which we will obtain this evening, and then Prof Robertse's 
report.  Now as I have pointed out to you in chambers, and I 
can say that now here as well, I have had to have 
discussions with some of my clients, the applicants, about 
the question of the publication of the contents of that 
report. I also had to convey that problem to Dr Robertse and 
I am trying to reconcile everybody concerned in this matter 
so that these reports can be made available to the 
Committee, as public documents.  I am in the process of 
nearly finalising that and it will be finalised hopefully 
later this afternoon. I cannot give you an indication 
hundred per cent when.  Dr Robertse, I spoke to him this 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 160

<UNKNOWN>: morning, before the hearing started and he gave me an 
indication that he would be able to finalise it throughout 
the morning, but that he would - and he discussed it with 
me, that he would have, would like to have one final short 
discussion with Capt Hechter, and that is the position I 
find myself in, Mr Chairman.  I have done my utmost to have 
it ready. I promised Monday, but there have been problems 
with this.
....Page 156, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Page 39?

UNKNOWN: No, that was in respect of the Swapo 
incident.  Are you asking me about the Swapo incident?

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That is at page 39.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I beg your pardon.  I thought you 
referred to the Gaberone bomb.