Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She had too many dresses.

MR VISSER: Alright, can you give us a description of one other dress, apart from the three dresses that you saw here at the Commission?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: There was a black dress with white, small white dots.

MR VISSER: Is that what you can remember of her other dresses?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you only asked her to describe one other dress.

MR VISSER: I am now asking her whether, well, perhaps I should put it differently, can you remember any of the other dresses that you can describe?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Do you want me to describe all her dresses that I can remember?

MR VISSER: Well, can you?  How many dresses that she had, can you describe do you think?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I think that is a bit of an unfair question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the witness can answer it.

MS THABETHE: Taking into consideration that this was in 1987?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but let's hear, she hasn't expressed any difficulty in it.

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: As I have already mentioned that there was a black dress with small white and red dots and - I don't think I can recall all of them.

MR VISSER: Alright, thank you for your assistance.  Let's talk about her shoes.  When she wore that maroon dress, what colour shoes would she wear with it?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Black full shoes, not her sandals.

MR VISSER: High heels or low heels?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: It wasn't a real high heel or a flat shoe, but it was a short heel.

INTERPRETER: As the witness is pointing.

MR VISSER: Yes, pointing about one inch, two inches, it doesn't really matter, Chairperson.
	Are you satisfied in your own mind that your recollection is correct that she used to wear black shoes with Exhibit 1, the maroon dress?  How certain are you of that?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, I am certain, but on the day when she disappeared, I don't remember what type of shoes she had worn.

MR VISSER: Well, again at page 93 the husband, Mr Mncobo, says that she wore that dress always with navy blue jacket and then he says "and high heeled white shoes"?  What do you say of that?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: He can say so.  Maybe she used to wear that dress with that white high heels at eSikhawini, but here in kwaMashu she never wore any white high heels.

MR VISSER: Which child did Kubheka bring to you to look after on the day of her disappearance?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: The one who is right here in the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the daughter?  Don't you know her name?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Tuli.

MR VISSER: Tuli?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Mrs Dludla, would you mind awfully if we asked for you to be measured, your length, would you mind, so that we can establish exactly how tall you are, and to be weighed?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: You can do so with pleasure.

MR VISSER: Thank you.   Was Ms Kubheka a bigger person than you around the waist, around the body or was she the same as you or smaller than you?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She was not the same as I am.  Her structure was a little bit different, because I am a little bit bigger on top.  She was small on top, because even her breast was smaller than my breast, I have a big breast.  The bottom, she was a little bit bigger than I am.

MR VISSER: Would you say she was overweight?  In other words, was she fat?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I cannot say she was overweight, I don't know how I can precisely describe this, but she had big bums and big hips.

MR VISSER: I wonder whether you could have a look at a belt which we've got here.  If that could possibly just be taken out and could I ask you, Mrs Dludla, whether you would try to fit that belt around your waist, if you don't mind?  If you can perhaps just stand up - oh, is it not here?
	I am so sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we will do is, seeing it is come into quite a lot of action, call the belt Exhibit 7.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Give it a number, is it 7, are we up to 7?

MS THABETHE: It is 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it 8, Exhibit 8, we will call the belt Exhibit 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are there any questions that you want to ask while we are waiting for the belt?

MR VISSER: I am just looking at our reference Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if I could ask a question while you are looking at your reference?

MR VISSER: Certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what Ms Ntombi Kubheka's age was at the time when she disappeared?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I do not remember.

MR LAX: Just while we are also waiting, please forgive me, this may seem like a very rude question, but do you regard yourself as a fat person or an overweight person?  I am sorry if it is a rude question, please forgive me?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I am not a fat person.

MR VISSER: And just on that same line, what do you say was the size of dress which Ms Kubheka wore when you knew her, not in eSikhawini, in kwaMashu?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Are you asking me as to what size her dresses were?

MR VISSER: Yes?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: 40 and sometimes 42, depending on the make.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the belt is available now, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  If you have the belt before you, would you please do me the favour of just standing up and fitting it around your waist, so that we can just see how it fits you.
	I know it hasn't got a buckle, but just strap it around your waist.

CHAIRPERSON: It is better to stand up, because one's waist is normally a bit bigger when you are sitting down.

MR VISSER: Alright, you are pulling, are you pulling the belt tight, as tight as you can?

CHAIRPERSON: The belt is being pulled, and it seems to be from the one end to the other ...

MR VISSER: Six inches?

CHAIRPERSON: A bit less perhaps, probably about four inches.

MR VISSER: Four inches, alright.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be 10 cm approximately, but not meeting by 10 cm.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Now, this is a matter of argument, but I just want to make it clear at this stage, it wasn't from the buckle holes?

CHAIRPERSON: No, from the one end to the other end.

MR VISSER: From the one end to the other, that is the full 87 cm?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you at all know the underwear of Ms Kubheka, that she used to wear or that was in her wardrobe?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Some, yes, I used to.

MR VISSER: Alright.  When you say that she had small breasts, can you - I am terribly sorry, this is very personal but there is nothing we can do about that, could you give us a size perhaps?  You as ladies, you know sizes of these things, don't you, B or a D or a D4 or whatever, I am not sure what they are called?

CHAIRPERSON: Is the question does she know what size bra the deceased wore?

MR VISSER: Yes, wore, yes.

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I am not sure, but I think she was taking a size 36 or 38.

MR VISSER: I want to show you a poor photocopy of a photograph, we haven't given these exhibit numbers and perhaps we will do that directly after, Chairperson.   Could I ask Ms Thabethe perhaps to show you this photograph, she might have the original with her?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, won't you show the photograph of the deceased, the one depicting her sitting on a bed?

MR VISSER: Now, can I suggest to you that by looking at that photograph, it does not appear that Ms Kubheka had small breasts?  What would your reaction be if I made that suggestion to you?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She didn't have big breasts at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, at this stage Mr Visser, we should give this a number, so that one reads the record, we won't get confused.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What are we up to R, so this will be Exhibit R1?  We will call it R1, and if we do get any other photos, we will slot them into the R category.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is an excellent idea, Chairperson.