Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR BLACK: And he says prominent ANC members and supporters such as Jusiah Thabede and yourself were at one stage wounded as a result of assaults which were carried out.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: I think what is of importance too, he does mention that although he wasn't present, and I must make it very clear to those representing these parties, and I have outside the court, he says that Msibi used to house Black Cats.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: As we understood from the people.

MR BLACK: From the community?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Okay.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: It was the perception in the community.

MR BLACK: And he names that two policemen who were commonly referred to or suspected of supporting the Black Cats, he says that members of the SAP assisted in arming and assisting IFP and Black Cat members in Piet Retief were Warrant Officer Pienaar and Sergeant Mkhwanazi.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, that was the perception.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, with respect, this evidence is clearly hearsay evidence and purely a perception.  There's no basis for this, what this evidence is worth, Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: I'm saying that this is what the perception was that these police were, and I made it very clear.

MR SANDI: Ja but, Mr Black, are we dealing here with a rumour or a perception?

MR BLACK: Perhaps Mr Gamede could clear that up.  What was the feeling in the community?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I'm saying this was the perception from the community until it was then confirmed by these two people I've indicated that have applied for amnesty that yes, it was so.

MR BLACK: Which two people are you referring to?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I'm referring to Platos Khezwa and Mdu Msibi who are actually serving life sentence in Barberton.

MR BLACK: I see, yes.  They have stated that under oath at an amnesty application?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Okay, to cut it short.  Mr Gushu will then say that he went to the bottle store business of Mr Msibi and the incident he refers to is he shot the bodyguard, Mr Themba Mlangeni.  Have you heard about that?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, we heard about that.

MR BLACK: Okay.  And he shot Mr Msibi as well.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Thanks.  I've nothing further to put.  Thanks.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, have you got any questions?

MR PATEL: I've no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no further questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP

CHAIRPERSON: No questions.  Mrs van der Walt?

MRS VAN DER WALT: The incidents to which you are referring, Mr Gamede, which occurred in Piet Retief, is this from 1982, before you were in Piet Retief?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, I actually came in Piet Retief in 1984.

MRS VAN DER WALT: And that which you mentioned regarding the police officers in Piet Retief reflected the sentiments of the community.  You yourself never made any observations, is that so?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: As from 1992, the issue of Mbongwa, Vusimuzi Mbongwa, yes, and the incident of Boshumane.  But from 1994 I was there.  So, I know ... (inaudible)

MRS VAN DER WALT: I think that we should limit it to the incidents which has been submitted to this honourable Committee, and that is the amnesty application of the applicants, especially that of Mr Gushu.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I'm listening.

MRS VAN DER WALT: You have no knowledge of any incidents regarding the police which have any bearing on Mr Gushu, apart from rumours which you heard?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Well, I've actually mentioned the incident which was actually an open inquiry, even in the former Government, the killing of the people in the small car and those people, one Indian lady was actually shot through his vagina in the kombi.  Those incidents actually took place in Piet Retief.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Is that according to the application of Mr Gushu, according to which he would have shot Mr Msibi?  Does it have to do with that?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, I'm actually giving you the background of the community of Piet Retief as we perceived situations.  Just listen to me.  As you are aware, the ANC had the political wing of the ANC and the military wing.  I was involved with the political wing of the ANC.  Mr Gushu, as you know, he was involved with the underground which, as I'm sitting here, I've got no details of because it was a secret thing.  Very few people would know exactly what happens within the military wings of the ANC.  But the general purpose of the ANC was to fight the Government of the day which we did successfully and we overthrow and all the organs of State at that stage, whether it was the police or the courts, they were all defending apartheid and to ensure that they keep white people in power and that's how I understand it politically.

MRS VAN DER WALT: What I asked you was whether you could offer any evidence regarding the case of Mr Gushu and what the South African Police's involvement was in that incident apart from the rumours which you heard, is that correct?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: No ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To which incident are you referring?

MRS VAN DER WALT: The incident during which Mr Msibi was shot.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I'm saying in terms of the policies of the democratic forces at that stage, anyone who was part, I'm talking politically, anyone who was part of the system which Mr Msibi was part, he was representing at that stage, as I'm sitting here today, I'm a Mayor of Piet Retief and I represent the ANC and I actually whatever policies that I throw on the ground are in direction of the ANC which is the Government.  Msibi at that stage, he was representing the Nationalist Party which was opposed to the people of South Africa in getting liberation.

MRS VAN DER WALT: How do you know that Mr Msibi was a member of the National Party or represented the National Party?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, I'm saying the political order at that stage, the Government in place was the Government that was opposed to the people of South Africa, and whoever participated, all democratic forces made clear that whoever participated within those structures was actually opposed to the transformation and the democratic way of the people of South Africa in getting independent.

MRS VAN DER WALT: I have asked you the question twice regarding the involvement of the police in Mr Gushu's application before this Committee.  You have not answered my question and I will leave it there.  How long have you been a member of the ANC?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Well, from 1993.

MR BLACK: You keep on saying 1993 or is it 19 ... (intervention)

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: 1983.

MR BLACK: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: Were you a member of the Civics organisation until your appointment as Mayor?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MRS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS VAN DER WALT

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Gamede, the incident to which you have referred in which a kombi was involved, during which year did this take place?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: It took place, I think it is about just ten (10) or fifteen (15) kilometres away from Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: During which year, Mr Gamede?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I think it was between 1987 and 1988.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore it was quite a long time before the ANC was unbanned, is that correct?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And the persons to which you are referring are persons who entered or infiltrated the country in an unlawful manner?  These were not people who resided in Piet Retief, is that correct?