Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Well I think they met once at the opening of the training centre in Crossroads.  Mr Botha at the time opened the training centre and Mr Ngxobongwana was the Mayor of Crossroads, so I mean obviously they had to as you say, brush shoulders.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any development that you ever engaged in in the other area that Mr Yamile was leader of?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: At the time when Mr Yamile was still in Crossroads?

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Yamile had his section as leader?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes we provided water there and refuse removal and the normal municipal services in Mr Yamile's area, in all - the entire Crossroads.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Yamile did not enjoy the friendship with highly placed people that Mr Ngxobongwana did?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: No,  no.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one very last question.  When you review your strategies at the time and you look at what you yourself called the negative consequences, for example many of the family members here of people who were killed as a result of, or partly as a result of that strategy, where would you place the accountability of the brutality that took place in the Crossroads area, KTC?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: On some of the people of Crossroads and on the system.

CHAIRPERSON: On the system and on ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: On the government system ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And on the leadership there.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Schelhase.  Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Schelhase after KTC was conquered so-to-speak, do you know of any major celebration by the Witdoeke where a cow was slaughtered to celebrate?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: No not about KTC but we have been involved in the slaughtering of cattle in Crossroads, but not for KTC, definitely not, not when I was present.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: The slaughtering of cattle in celebration in Crossroads?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Ja, I cannot remember what we celebrated Ma'am, it happened twice.  ...(intervention)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: There are so many things ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Ja but it was long afterwards in 1988, I am talking about 1988 now.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: All of you ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Oh I'll tell you why, it was after the election of Mr Ngxobongwana and the councillors in Crossroads, that was ...(tape ends)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Remember I talked about the convergence of interest ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes, yes. ...(intervention)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: That you all succeeded in accomplishing that, and that the government indeed bought the cattle for you to celebrate.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Ramashala.  Mr Ntsebeza is going to make some closing comments before you leave.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Thank you.

MR NTSEBEZA: Well it remains for me Mr Schelhase to thank you for having come.  And especially for what I consider to be an instructive testimony.  I would only want you to leave here with a firm conviction that even though some questions were robust and a bit rough, that behind those sort of questions and the attitude that seems to emanate from those questions lies an honesty and an endeavour by the panel members to try and arrive at the truth.
 As I have said over the last few days, not for its own sake but to the extent that it can assist us to find a solution to the future, the past, with all its horrors, is something that we would like to forget but we are not going to be able to forget it if we do not know what underlay the symptoms that were visible on the surface.  
 I think your contribution, especially in the area of the philosophy that underpinned the strategies that were adopted, the decisions that were arrived at as a consequence of the pursuit of that strategy, were very illuminating and I am sure they will go a long distance in assisting us with other conclusions that we draw from other investigative inquiries to enable us to have an idea of what contributed to those sort-of conflicts.  Because one of the aims of the Commission is to make a recommendation to the powers that be that must ensure that such incidents should never happen.  That a democracy underpinned by a constitution that guarantees human rights should never have to rely on an Oil Strategy for the resolution of conflicts that arise in communities.
 Thank you Sir.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Thank you very much Sir.  Thanks Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We are going to break for lunch and if you could please be back here at exactly two o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS