Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: : That's correct. It has a stamp.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, I have seen that.  I didn't see a report, I just saw the card.

UNKNOWN: : The card I'm referring to.  It has the 30th December, 1988, stamped on it.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : You know on the question of date, I really wouldn't be absolutely certain.  It was within those days, between the 29th and 30th.

UNKNOWN: : It possibly was the 30th.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I really couldn't confirm that, because the 30th - to my recollection, I think that was the 29th.

UNKNOWN: : But the stamp says the 30th.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I noted the stamp says the 30th.  I would be in no position to give an explanation for that.

UNKNOWN: You wouldn't dispute that  (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I wouldn't, because I understand my memory to be the date of the 29th.

UNKNOWN: : Fine.
 Let's move on.  I try to move on chronologically.
Did you ever see Dr Asvat again in January of before his death?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't remember seeing him again.

UNKNOWN: You've told us that you deny the allegations of Mr Mbatha and Mr Dlamini.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They're (indistinct) of course.

UNKNOWN: : You also denied having any argument or row with Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I could never had any argument with Dr Asvat.

UNKNOWN: : I want to go on to the issue of Mr Lolo Solo, and Mr Sibuniso Shabalala.
 You have heard the evidence of Mr Sono, senior, the father of Lolo Sono?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes I did hear.

UNKNOWN: : And you've also heard the evidence of Mr Shabalala?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now, Mr Sono maintains his version that you came with an injured - with his face having been injured, swollen, etc.  You've heard those details?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I heard him give evidence.

UNKNOWN: : You advised us in the Section 29 Inquiry, and you repeated it when your counsellor was leading you that you took Lolo Sono to his cousin, who was an MK Guerrilla staying at Jerry Richardson's house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: : And that's where you last saw him.
 Now, if that was true, Mr Sono says that the abduction as he calls it, took place on the 30th of November, 1988, he started laying charges on the 14th of November, 1988.  The attack on the house of Jerry Richardson in which (indistinct) and Sipo, the MK guerrillas were killed, in fact took place on the 9th of November, 1988.  Four days earlier?     How do you explain this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Now actually when it comes to the (indistinct) about the days, I'm really unable to help you.  All I know is, that the last contact I had with Lolo was when I brought him in the vicinity of Richardson's house.  When the (indistinct) were killed, and when  he was dropped, I wouldn't have that type of memory to remember the exact date.

UNKNOWN: : So if there's a police docket which indicates that a charged was laid on the 14th of November 1988, allegedly for an incident which took place on the 30th of November, 1988, then he couldn't possibly, if these facts are correct, that he couldn't possibly been have been taken to Jerry Richardson's house, because at this stage, Jerry Richardson was in detention. He was in detention the night of November 1988, that should be 5th of November 1988, and the two MK Guerrillas, Seboko and Sipo, had been killed by this stage.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I really cannot help you in this regard.  My last contact with Lolo was  when I dropped him in that vicinity of Jerry Richardson's house.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer you to the second Section 29 Inquiry., page 16 onwards.   You advise us there in that Lolo Sono was your courier and  was, had in fact been introduced to you by Seboko himself.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: : I go on to page 17 to ask you a question.  Have you ever made an attempt, any attempt to find out what has happened to Lolo Sono?
And your response was:  "I have no reason to find out why, what happened to Lolo.  Why would I have been concerned to find out what happened to Lolo?"
My response was:  "Surely you are aware of statements being made in the Press and in Parliament and statements made before the Human Rights Violation Committee by Mr Sono and by Mrs Sono regarding this?"
You went on.  "I saw the statements in the media, Mr Chairman, and if I followed up all the things that get said about one in the media, I do not think I would have been normal to this day. 
Why should I have run around looking for Lolo?   In the first place, I'd not even know whether he had really disappeared or what had happened to him?  All sorts of things get said about me". 
My response was:   "But he was a Courier you trusted implicitly. Surely, you would have been concerned as to what happened to such a Courier?"   
There was an intervention by Mr Semenya, where he complained about the process, I'll by-pass that and go on to page 19 where I go on.
 Very specifically, I'm trying to find out whether according to this young man, Mrs Sono, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was the last person they saw her with in a group of other youngsters, and if she follows up this issue of his disappearance.  Then I go on. 
 "The issue of Lolo Sono had not gone away for eight years.  It is now eight years since he allegedly disappeared.  You have advised us that Mr Sono has come to your house a number of times and I talk about Mr Sono, and I asked you the question.   "Why did he come to your house?" 
 And you say he came to your house to bring you ammunition.
Further down, I ask you a question.  "Have you ever been  curious about what happened to Mr Lolo Sono in any way?"  We're now on page 20, and your response was -
"I could not have been curious about what happened to people those days.  It was not my area of concern, and in the first place during those days, how on earth would I have gone out of my way to look for information about Lolo Sono?
And I think my attorney explained in the last session, we had that our information from Mr (indistinct) is that you actually have statements made by the people who knew what happened to Lolo Sono.
 Well, the only statement we have got regarding Mr Lolo Sono, is Mr Jerry Richardson's amnesty application.  Where he says that he killed Sibuniso Shabalala, and Lolo Sono on your instructions.
 Have you at any stage made enquiries as to what happened to Lolo Sono.  You were a MK operative.  One of your trusted couriers disappears, two MK Guerrillas get killed.  Do you want to in any way revise the answer you gave us previously at a Section 29 Inquiry?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : In those days Mr Chairman, I wouldn't have been in a position to go and make enquiries about a courier.  In the first place I didn't know that they had been killed with this other Shabalala boy.  And when I saw the Press reports, they stood to be confirmed, as they have been confirmed in this forum.  I hadn't the slightest idea that they had died.  I personally would have suspected they must have gone to Lusaka.  I didn't know the information I now have.  So there is nothing to revise, because I held to that view at the time.