Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-04

MRS SEROKE: Titus, you have explained that when you started you, as a group, were engaged in certain specific structures and you were mainly involved with education and you were doing this through school boycotts, stay aways and the like.  Now, when you realised that you were working in this manner
what actually pushed you to using violence and using hand grenades as well as selecting your targets.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Yes, well, I can say we are a product of 1984 and product of 1984 was militant, I must say.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Titus.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Titus.  You are being requested to use one language, either Zulu or English, otherwise it confuses the interpreters.  Thank you.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Okay, I could say that we were a product of 1984 and at the time, that I have already explained to you, that the whole country was in turmoil and we realised that we could only get our liberation through violence and we had to speed up the process of liberating the country.  Sorry, sorry, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, okay.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Sorry, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MRS SEROKE: Thank you.  Order please, order.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: So, and at that time people were getting killed and they were getting killed right in front of our own eyes and we could not just sit back as the youth because we knew that we were the oppressed masses and we had to show that we did not want to be oppressed and, as I have already mentioned Sonto Tobela, that he got killed, Saneli Tobela and quite a number of those that I have already counted and it was.

MRS SEROKE: Now, in other words you realised that the boycotts as well as the demonstrations were not yielding any results?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: No, that was a strategy, that was part of
the struggle.  It was a component of the struggle.

MRS SEROKE: Now, when you defined your targets, as you have already explained in your statement, you said that your targets was that you were against apartheid councillors as well as vigilante groups.  What was troubling you about those groups, why did you specifically choose them to be your targets?  What is it that they actually did?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: As you can see we are in 1997.  Today I can speak to a member of the council or a councillor or hug him, but during that time I could not do that because these people were not democratically elected and they were doing nothing for the community and these were the people who were chosen from the community, because they shared the same idealogies with the apartheid regime and what I can say is that these people were collaborators.  They did not want us to get the new South Africa that we are in today and quite a number of them are happy today because they are enjoying the benefits and the privileges of a new South Africa.  At that time we explained through staging boycotts and mass campaigns, but they never responded.  The vigilantes were also against our people and they conducted a reign of terror, they conducted a reign of terror in the community.

MRS SEROKE: So, you realised that you had to eliminate these groups of people?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: I think you have used a wrong word when you say "eliminate".  We did not want to eliminate them, but since it was our first operation at that time, we had to practice and form a foundation so that we could get use to using the grenades so that even if in the future we launched other attacks, we would be able to do so.

MRS SEROKE: Order, order.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: So, we were using them as targets for practice.  Their houses were not occupied at that time when we bombed them because at that time the township had been rendered ungovernable and the councillors had vacated their houses.  So, at that time their houses were empty and we thought it symbolical to go and attack the councillor's houses so as to send a message that we were prepared for a counter attack.

MRS SEROKE: Now, when you got introduced to Mike and James, how many practice sessions did you have?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Only one practice session.

MRS SEROKE: One, and were you satisfied that you got one days training and that was enough?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: As I have already explained, they said it was a crash course just to be able to use hand grenades and the instructions were very simple.  We believed that we knew everything that had to be done.

MRS SEROKE: You have also explained that the grenades that were given to you thereafter were quite different from the ones that were used during the demonstrations.  Did you ever give yourselves a chance to ask them as to why these differed?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Let me say they were very clever because at that time they were organised into a group and we asked them, but the answer that we got from them was that, basically, the same instructions were going to be used.  We had to count one, two three and there would be a loud bang.

MRS SEROKE: Let us come to Mike and James.  Are they still alive at the moment?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: I do not know what happened to James, but
as we see in the media that Mamasela has already confessed
to his past deeds and he also confirmed that he is the one who handed us the hand grenade and he also organised other would be victims.

MRS SEROKE: Now, when you see Mamasela on TV, is he the one who actually demonstrated to you as to how to use the hand grenade?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: I did not see him personally, because at that time we went to the training he was wearing a balaclava, but, according to the statements that I got from Valley, was that he had contact with the Congress in Tema and they have confirmed that he is the one.

MRS SEROKE: How long did you stay in hospital after the explosion?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: I stayed for one month and John stayed for less than a month and some of them two, three days respectively, but all of us were discharged before time.

MRS SEROKE: Now, what is happening to your careers or what happened to your careers?  Did you continue with your education or what happened?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Some of us continued with their education.

MRS SEROKE: And what are you doing presently?

MR J T MAZIBUKO: I am unemployed.  Not because I do not want to work.

MRS SEROKE: Order, order.  Thank you very much, Titus.  I do not know whether there are some who would like to speak, but they should just touch-up where you were not able to.

CHAIRPERSON: Russell.

MR J T MAZIBUKO: Right, yes, Valley would like to address the Committee, Commission.

MRS SEROKE: We shall request you to take an oath.  Stand
up, take an oath.

VALLEY MAZIBUKO: (Duly sworn in, states).