Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: This bundle, Exhibit 4, I think that this will be in effect the fourth bundle we've received.  The applications, supplement two, and supplement one.

ADV STEENKAMP: ...(indistinct).  Just again Mr Chairman, there is a sworn statement.  A copy was made available to you yesterday afternoon and is in front of you.  Additional statements also made available regarding this specific application, but I'm sure my learned colleague will deal with that.  Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko I just want to enlighten you that we decided during the course of yesterday or the day before, that because some of the names were so closely related, either by sound or spelling, that when an applicant comes to testify, his identity number would be given to us as well.  I don't know if you've got it on hand.  If not, during one of the breaks could you please get it, if you haven't got it now.

MR SIBEKO: I'll find it our Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Sibeko there is a number on page 111, can your client confirm whether the number is correct?

MR SIBEKO: The number has been confirmed to be correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: 0210 5393 08 3.  Is that correct?

MR SIBEKO: It's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, which language would you prefer to use?

MR RADEBE: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

MR RADEBE: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Be seated.  Yes Mr.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Radebe, you have made an application for amnesty.  Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: You have also supplemented your application with a sworn statement that was signed in Alberton on the 1st day of February 1999.  Is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That's correct.

MR SIBEKO: Your application for amnesty, is it related to any Self-Defence Unit activities that occurred in Tokoza?

MR RADEBE: That's true.

MR SIBEKO: During the periods 1990 to 1993, were you part of any political structures?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind letting us know about those structures.

MR RADEBE: I was a member of Sanco, and executive member, sectional, Sanco executive sectional.  I was a  ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe I prefer you to use your mother tongue, it's being translated for me, for us.  I think you'd be more comfortable with Zulu.  You can answer in Zulu and we get the translation.

INTERPRETER: May the applicant tune in to channel four.

CHAIRPERSON: Turn that thing to channel four.

MR RADEBE: I was a member of Sanco, and ANC member as well, youth league that is.  As well as I used to assist in terms of establishing the SDU's.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, you have indicated that you were an executive member of the sectional of Sanco.  Were you an office bearer in the ANC youth league, or the ANC?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I was, I was a member of the executive committee.  The ANC youth league, as well as the Sanco section, I was also an executive member.

MR SIBEKO: Now at what level were you an executive member of the youth league?  Is it branch level, regional, national?

MR RADEBE: ANC youth league, I was the branch executive member, as I've already finished the information that with the Sanco I will go as far as section, so we would have such meetings that I will be part of, sectional meetings that is, as far as Sanco is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at some stage during your, during the period, you were involved in the Self-Defence Units.  Correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes.  I held, or I played some role in establishing the Self-Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that, that those Self-Defence Units were established as part of strategic plans, by the African National Congress, in order to defend its members against political attacks, physical political attacks?

MR RADEBE: The motive behind establishing these SDU's was to protect, protect and defend the dwellers from the attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you've told us that you were involved in the establishment of these Self-Defence Units.  Did you, at any time, become a member of one of them and participate in any of their activities, or what is the position?

MR RADEBE: Yes, to a certain extent.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell us to which unit you were attached, and let's carry on from there as to what you actually did.

MR RADEBE: I'm thinking maybe the Amnesty Committee does not have the full background as to the formation and the activities of the SDU.  Maybe I'll be afforded an opportunity to explain and furnish further information as to the activities and operations of the SDU if the Committee so ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: We have been given numerous documentation and in previous hearings there has been testimony, as to the strategic basis for which Self-Defence Units were established, and how it works.  Should there be aspects that we are not sure of, we will ask you.  At the moment we have an appreciation for the basis for which the Self-Defence Units existed.

MR RADEBE: What I did ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me help you.  To which SDU were you attached?

MR RADEBE: I was attached to the senior people of ANC like Robert MacBride and others.  I used to work hand in hand with them and we used to call them or refer to them with their code names, not with their real names.  They did not want the police to know their real names, so in order to protect their identity we'll have to use code names.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in what capacity did you serve on, can I call it a senior committee?

MR RADEBE: Yes, because there was a time when I was given firearms and it rested upon my responsibility to command others, so in a way I think I worked close with the senior, or the seniors of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a commander?

MR RADEBE: Yes, in that particular unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that unit, where would it operate?  In which area?

MR RADEBE: There were times when we will get together or combine with another unit which was formed in a place called Polla Park.  We'll get together and also combine with other units that, whose leader was Allrose and other existing units around the area.

CHAIRPERSON: But you talk as if those were isolated instances.  I'm talking generally.  Where were your area of operations?

MR RADEBE: My unit was based in Penduka.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now, as a commander in that unit, what did you do in connection with the incidents for which you applied for amnesty?

MR RADEBE: First of all, there was a time after we combined with the unit from Polla Park, certain policemen were shot at night, and the Hippo, the police vehicle, Caspir that is, was, we took it and we used it to go to Katuza.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we continue, let us establish, to make things easier, what is it you're applying for in the first place, then we can deal with it incident by incident.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  Or maybe Mr Sibeko, you can guide us on that one, please.

MR SIBEKO: With your permission Mr Chairman.  The application is for his involvement in the establishment of the units.  The incident that occurred in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: What crime would be involved there?

MR SIBEKO: It will be a murder of a police officer.  It would be attacks at the Katuza hostel, the very same, it's connected to the very same incident.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) malicious injury to property, or arson, or something.  What would that be?

MR SIBEKO: It would be malicious injury to property.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SIBEKO: It would be malicious injury to property, to a vehicle belonging to Bishop ...(indistinct) Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SIBEKO: It's a second incident.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SIBEKO: That will be all Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) two incidents but three crimes?

MR SIBEKO: That's correct so Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Mr Radebe, let us take the first incident.  The one of the murder of the policeman.  Can you tell us what your part in that incident was?