Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Didn't that then become a vicious circle foryou in the sense that as the country became more ungovernableand the war psychosis developed even more it in fact promotedthe need amongst yourselves for your own activities in contributingtowards the war psychosis, in creating the impression that manyof the deeds that you committed were in fact committed ratherby the activists, weren't you creating for yourselves a fertilebreeding ground for your own killings to justify your own killingsand your own actions?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand the question because theyhad already taken a decision wherever they identified trouble
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makers of a particular category they would be targeted and eliminated.

MR CURRIN: : Yes, the point is though Mr Chairman thatwhen they did that they didn't say that was committed by the securityforces, they created the impression that those killings were infact committed by the liberation movements.  They in fact addedfuel to the war psychosis, to the total onslaught from the liberationmovements.   They participated in creating the perception thatthe liberation movements were far more powerful than what theywere, which in turn justified their counter-war, that is the point.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Do you understand that?

ANSWER: It is difficult for me Mr Currin, but I can saythis to you I cannot see how we could have created this additionalsituation as you claim, I've already said that it was done tobring the white population under the wrong impression and thatthis was propaganda.

<UNKNOWN>: ...that in turn justified the need for whatyou were doing?

ANSWER: The government knew exactly what we were doingbut the public did not.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman perhaps the correct peopleto ask these questions to should be the politicians who made thedecisions at that day and not somebody like Brigadier Cronje whowas simply an operator who did his work under the circumstancesof the position that he was in?

MR CURRIN: : I'll argue that point at the end when we dealwith the argument and the question of proportionality I will arguethat the issue that I've raised with him as a question.   Thankyou.
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JUDGE NGCOBE: Perhaps I could ask you, was it also anobjective to incite so-called black on black violence?

ANSWER: No, no it was not the intention.   In the blacktownships the security police and the police attempted to maintainorder.

JUDGE NGCOBE: If through the police propaganda certainmisdeeds in black townships were reputed to political activists,wouldn't that result in that kind of atmosphere in which blackon black violence might be unleashed?

ANSWER: That could have been part of the propaganda butI doubt that it was the case.
MEMBER OF COMMITTEE(?):: If I could make it clearer foryou Brigadier Cronje, the intention of the question is this, sayfor instance someone was killed because of a bomb that explodedin a black township, the next morning it is said that this bombwas planted by the ANC, then the family members of the peoplewho died in this bombing would become angry at the ANC.   Thiswould cause conflict between these two groupings, one group wouldblame the other group that it was the cause of death.   I thinkthat's the question that you're being asked, whether that waspart of your intentions?

ANSWER: Chair I do not believe that the way in whichthese bombings happened would have been the way in which activistsdid it.   I do not think that it could have been concluded thatthese bombings were the ANC killing their own people.  They mighthave thought that it was us.

<UNKNOWN>: In many of these instances ANC members diedbecause of say the Zero bomb, if that is the case then it couldhave appeared as if someone had killed this ANC member.
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ANSWER: That is the case, they could have said that wekilled them, there's no way in which they could have believedthat the ANC was killing their own people.

<UNKNOWN>: What I'm trying to imply is that other blackpeople say Inkatha were killing these activists.

ANSWER: I doubt that, I doubt that.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Certainly the security forces always deniedany suggestion that they were responsible for those deeds, correct?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: I am now going to move on to the question ofinstructions and accountability as one of the themes.   In yourevidence you said that all events within your jurisdiction weretaken up in situation reports and sent to head office daily.  Is that correct?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Those reports were also sent to the State SecurityCouncil?

ANSWER: In a single countrywide report, yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Summaries then of those situation reports tothe State Security Council.

ANSWER: That would have been someone at head office butI wouldn't know who that would have been.

<UNKNOWN>: ...did you send your situation reports to?

ANSWER: I marked the reports for the attention of myhead office, from there it would have gone to the commanding officeror his second-in-command.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: General Van der Merwe and I believe BrigadierBroodryk.   They would then have devolved(?) these reports
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to the different sections.

<UNKNOWN>: That report would then eventually, summarieswould eventually have got to the State Security Council?

ANSWER: It was discussed every morning in what they referredto as the "San Hedron", it was a meeting of all thesection heads or heads of units at the head office, this was referredto as the "San Hedron".

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: Maybe you should ask the Archbishop, he can informyou what the San Hedron is.   (Discussion aside re San Hedron).

<UNKNOWN>: Subsequently there would have been a jointreport drafted for the purpose of being referred to the StateSecurity Council.

<UNKNOWN>: That consolidated report went to the StateSecurity Council?

ANSWER: Yes Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Were those detailed reports, the situationreports?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Which mentioned all activities, tortures, identifiedtargets, assassinations if there were to be any or if there hadbeen any, all of that would be mentioned in those reports?

ANSWER: Only the incidents of the previous day wouldhave been mentioned.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier you say you accept it as a fact,or you would state it as a fact that these summary reports wouldhave gone to the State Security Council is that the case?

ANSWER: It is the case.
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<UNKNOWN>: /...
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<UNKNOWN>: On what grounds would you claim that this isa fact, what facts do you have in your own possession, on whatgrounds can you state to this Committee that it is a fact thatthis occurred?   What particular knowledge do you have in thisregard?

ANSWER: For a while during my command of Vlakplaas Iattended these meetings.

<UNKNOWN>: You know therefore from your own knowledgethat this was passed on?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: There were also meetings of the joint management,was it Joint Management System?

ANSWER: JMS, Joint Management Systems, the JMS consistedof the military, the army, the uniformed branch of the police,the security branch of the police as well as a number of governmentdepartments.

<UNKNOWN>: ...document you say that there were representativesfrom the teaching profession as well as the Citizen Protectionrepresentatives.

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Did the sort of detail of your activities getshared with representatives from the teaching profession and theCitizen Protection representatives at those meetings?

ANSWER: They were members of the meeting and all theincidents which occurred over a certain period would then havebeen mentioned.

<UNKNOWN>: ...qualify say from the teaching professionto participate in those meetings?