Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR DORFLING: You were doing this movement and uttering these words at the time when the shooting commenced.  Can you describe in detail what you saw yourself, not what you were told by anybody else, what you yourself observed when the shooting commenced?

MR MHLABA: I would say the truth is, when we started chanting together as a group they started shooting at us.  We didn't continue forward, we ran backwards.  Some of our friends didn't manage to escape because when I turned back, I realised that one of our friends was injured from the back and he was bleeding.

MR DORFLING: Before you attended to this friend of yours, can you describe whether you say anybody shooting in the direction of the marchers?

MR MHLABA: Yes I did see the people who were shooting.  I can't remember the number but they were under the building.  There were some on top of the building, about three of them who were shooting at us, shooting from above.  I saw them while trying to help the injured brother.

MR DORFLING: Can I again ask you to just take it step by step.  The people that you saw, as you call it: "under the building", would you describe exactly where you saw them.

MR MHLABA: In front of us, towards our direction where we're going, the direction in which we're proceeding.

MR DORFLING: Were they down the street in the direction you were continuing in?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR DORFLING: Were they further down the street in the direction you were continuing in?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they were on the same street, right in front of us.  I wouldn't say down or up the street but they were really on the same street, just before us.

MR DORFLING: Now you were at that point in time, roughly at an intersection you've described?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now how far ahead of you did you see these people, just roughly?  If you can perhaps with reference to a building or a street indicate where they were positioned.

MR MHLABA: I would say from where I am they will be on the opposite building, on the other side, I will say referring to Small Street, just to the other building after passing Small Street.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I would venture to suggest in the region of 50 metres perhaps from where the witness is sitting to the other side of the Small Street Road so to speak, just outside the church.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Not very clear views, but we'll accept that as a rough figure Mr Chairman.

MR DORFLING: You've described the people in that direction, did you yourself see any of them shooting in the direction of the marchers?

MR MHLABA: Some of them whom I saw, there were those who were on top of the building which we were to pass, it building in stones.  They were standing on top of the building and they were shooting at us.  That was the last time I saw the people who shot at us.

MR DORFLING: Can we just go back to the first person or persons that you saw shooting in the direction of the crowd, who are they and where were they positioned?

MR MHLABA: I wouldn't be able to say who they were, they were dressed in white clothes.  I don't know how many there were.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mhlaba in your evidence you have talked about two different people, there were those who were in front of you and there were others who were shooting from the top of the building?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Your lawyer is trying to find out exactly who were the first between these two groups to shoot at you.  Were they the people who were right in front of you or whether they were the people on top of the building who started shooting.

MR MHLABA: I would say the people who first shot at us, they were the people who were right in front of us.

MR DORFLING: Now can we go through it step by step and just take it slowly Mr Mhlaba.  You see the people in front of you, they shoot in the direction of the crowd, what do you do?  Just slowly, step by step.

MR MHLABA: When they started shooting at us we turned back and ran.

MR DORFLING: Yes, and what happened then?

MR MHLABA: While we were running back, not all of us managed to escape the shooting, as we were running back, those from the top of the building, they also started shooting at us.  They shot one of our friends, and I tried to help him, and that's where I got shot too, while trying to help him.

MR DORFLING: Can you again just describe in detail, you say a friend of yours got shot, did he fall down, did he remain upright?

MR MHLABA: He got shot and he fell, because when I turned back as I was running, I found that he was bleeding from the back and when I tried to tried to remove the jersey to find out where the wound was, that's when I got shot.

MR DORFLING: Can you just describe your own position when you were hit by the bullet, were you at that point in time upright or what was your position?

MR MHLABA: I would say I was kneeling, I was just bending, and he was lying on the ground.  I was just to pull up his jersey to see how he was injured, and I got shot at that time and I fell next to him.

MR DORFLING: I saw you actually getting up from your chair, you were bending forward with you upper body, is that right?  Were you bending over the injured person?

MR MHLABA: Yes, what do you mean when I was bending forward?

MR DORFLING: You bent your upper body over the man.

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: And you've indicated that this was the time when you were struck by a bullet.  Can you please indicate where you were hit?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Yes, where were you hit by the bullet?

MR MHLABA: I was shot here.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: As it pleases the Committee Mr Chair.  What happened then Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: The police arrived and they tried to push me to the corner of the intersection.  All I could remember seeing, I saw the things and after I fell I didn't see anything except the police coming to come and help us, and they took me into an ambulance.

MR DORFLING: At the time when you got shot, did you carry anything with you?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I was holding a stick, a shield and a spear.

MR DORFLING: Mr Interpreter did the witness the word "uboko" and "induko"?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Sharpened stick.

MR DORFLING: Yes, I would just like your guidance Mr Committee members, I picked up two words "induko" and "uboko".

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: No, I think all the words were right, but I think I've just got one word missing.  "Induko" and "uboko".

MR LAX: "Induko" is a stick Mr Dorfling, it's a ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: I'm made to believe that "uboko" is also a stick, just a longer stick.  Maybe we can ask the witness.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Mhlaba just repeat, tell us what did you carry on the previous question.

MR MHLABA: I was holding a shield, a "boko", it's a long stick which has a tail.  On the other side I was holding a knobkierrie, on the other side there was also a spear.

MR DORFLING: Did you at the time when the shooting started, did you become aware of any firearms being discharged from amongst the group of marchers where you were positioned?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see any firearm among those people in front of me.

MR DORFLING: Did you become aware of anybody discharging a firearm in your vicinity?  Amongst the marchers in other words.

MR MHLABA: As I've explained before the Committee, I didn't see anyone holding a firearm.  I didn't see anyone with my eyes.

MR LAX: Did you hear anyone firing a firearm around you?  I think that's what Mr Dorfling is also trying to ask you.

MR MHLABA: The way this shooting happened, even if there was someone shooting just beside you, you wouldn't be able to detect that because there was a lot of noise.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The noise you're talking about, is it the noise of your chanting or was it the noise that was caused by the shooting?