Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: When we arrived there from Mnyagene, before we left, we were told that the target was the supermarket, and I knew at the time that that was the target and I was anxious to get there.  The first person to get inside was Bhani, I was the second one and the third comrade, Sebinzile, followed.  Comrade Bhani issued an instruction to fire.  I started shooting.  I was shooting everything that was in front of my eyes.  After that, Bhani told us to take the money.  We didn't ask questions, because the order was already issued, we were told to fire and take the money.  He was the last person to leave the supermarket.  That was the end, we went back to Mnyagene township.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, I want you to comment, there was evidence in court to the effect that you were the person who was given orders, in fact during ID parade you were identified as the person who was giving orders whilst you were inside the supermarket.  What do you say to that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: They were false to identify me, because I was taller, therefore they thought that I was the one who was responsible for issuing instructions, because Bhani was not yet arrested at the time, I was the one who was already arrested, therefore they had to say I was the one who issued the instruction, but that was not true.  They got the wrong information, because they were told that it was Ngesi, but Ngesi was just Bhani's assistant.  Therefore if Bhani happened to be injured at the time, I would take over, but fortunately we came back all alive, all of us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, the incident took place and you left after that incident and people died as a result of your actions.  Now, what do you say now when you look and face the victims of that incident, what have you to say to the Committee and everybody who is here regarding that incident?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Today, we have a democratic government, though we are still in jail, I'm happy that I participated in the struggle.  Anyone who is involved in the war, it's obvious that there's death.  The PAC organisation was formed in 1959, it was not there to satisfy the settlers regime, but it was formed to satisfy the indigenous of the land, not the settlers.  If you don't understand that, you can ask anyone.  11 months after it was formed, it was banned, in 1960, that was on the 21st of March in Sharpeville, people died.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The victims are saying that what you did there has nothing to do with politics, it was just pure robbery and callous murder on your part, what do you say to that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: They have a right to say so because they were the people who were affected and they were the same people who were benefitting from the old regime, the people who were drafting the laws were not affected, because they were staying in parliament, they were protected and those people who were affected were those who were affected, but if they did take a position about this and try and fight for unity, that would be better.  They don't belong to this country.  We were born here.  There's a difference between a person who takes the land and a person who was born in that particular land, but if they were in our shoes, if they were feeling the pain, they would try to talk to the government.  For an example, in Uitenhage, people died, that was not a revenge, our operations were not meant to revenge, because of the deaths of the people in Uitenhage, that is not a revenge, but our aim was to push the struggle.  I like PAC, I was not forced to join the liberation army, but I was feeling the pain, then I decided to join.
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MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there anything that you left out, you would like also to say before the Committee?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, can you hear me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm saying is there anything you want to add or whatever you want to say to the Committee which you have not said which you think would be relevant if you put it to the Committee?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.  As we have applied for amnesty, for us being here, though we don't say that we ask for forgiveness, we can then ask for forgiveness, because the others are enjoying the fruit of the struggle, they're enjoying liberation, and we are also in prison and our families are suffering, but the people who were oppressing us, we are all the same, we are united in this new South Africa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can you just indicate to us exactly what were your orders on the day of the incident, exactly what were you told to do?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Just clarify, what instructions?

MR STEENKAMP: Did you receive any instructions, from anybody, before embarking on this incident?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No.  The only instruction that I got was from Khotle to move to Wesselsbron, and meet with Bhani.  Bhani instructed me to go with him to attack at Wesselsbron.  That was all.

MR STEENKAMP: Now that's exactly what I want to know, what exactly did Bhani told you to do, only to rob or, what did he tell you?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Bhani said, "Let us go, there is a target, I identified this target and I want this target to be attacked and when we arrive there, we will kill the people and get their money and take the money".  We did as he told us, we shot at the people there and we took the money and we left the place.

CHAIRPERSON: What weapon did you use?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: R4 rifles.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get it?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: What do you mean by where did we get them?

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the R4 from?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Khotle gave them to me and I kept them.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he give them to you?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Just before the operation at Wesselsbron.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did he give you them, or did he give you a weapon?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: He didn't give me a weapon, he gave me three weapons.  Those that were with me were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Sir, you said in your evidence in chief that you started to shoot at everything that was in front of your eyes, is that correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: So you were shooting indiscriminately, in other words you were shooting, you didn't identify a specific group of people, you start shooting at everything and anybody in the shop, do I understand you correctly?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That's correct, I did that.

MR STEENKAMP: So you did not make a distinction between the white people and the black people, is that correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There were no black people there.

MR STEENKAMP: You see my information is, and if necessary I will lead evidence to the effect on behalf of the victims, that in fact there were black people in the shop.  Can you dispute this?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There were no black people in the shop.

MR STEENKAMP: Is it also correct that you actually started shooting at people after they were told to lie down?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The only order that I got from Bhani was to fire, open fire.

MR STEENKAMP: So you were there.  Were the people lying down when you started to shoot them?  Do you understand the question?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: They had their hands in the air, they had their hands up in the air.

MR STEENKAMP: In other words they were standing, they were not lying down?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Certainly.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm also informed by the victims that this supermarket is predominantly visited and supported by the black community, to a large extent, most of the buyers are 90% black people, do you know this, or can you dispute this?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I didn't want to know who were the customers, but I went there to kill.  If the blacks were buying there, were buying in that shop, were customers in that shop, that was their right to do so, but when I went there, they were not there.