Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

JOSEPH KGOELE: When they attacked us in Maseru and Madola they never announced themselves, they took us by surprise in the middle of the night.

MR WAGNER: Did I understand you correctly that the smaller mine, the limpet mine was only placed by you later that morning, in fact when you came back from Soweto and not early in the morning when you left your parked car there?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes that's what I mean.

MR WAGNER: Weren't you scared that someone may see you, I assume it was broad daylight.  So you walk with this mine in your hands and you put it down next to or under a car there in daylight.  Weren't you scared that you could have been detected?

JOSEPH KGOELE: At least if I was going to be detected it would have saved the triggering of the major explosion, but because I was armed to the teeth I think I would have taken some casualties.

MR WAGNER: Is that why you took your pistol and hand grenades with you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: That is so.

MR WAGNER: Was that the only reason why you took it with you, to fight back should you be detected and as you've just said to take some casualties with you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Here we were in a state of war or undeterred war so my placing a bomb there did not mean that I was only going target the enemy via a bomb only.  If they could present themselves and I had an opportunity to use my pistol I would have done it.

MR WAGNER: I'm not sure Mr Kgoele if I understand you now.  What was the idea of the pistol, what did you intend doing?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I intended shooting anyone or any policeman who might have detected me or confronted me.

MR WAGNER: When you stood watching after the first small bomb, you watched the area, if I heard you correctly you saw police approach, cordon off the area, were you sure that it was only police within that area and no private civilians?

JOSEPH KGOELE: In any war situation we do expect casualties.  My main target there was to, was aimed solely or entirely at the police.  If by any chance there were have been any civilians, well it was most unfortunate.

MR WAGNER: What would you have done had there been for instance medical personnel in that area busy with perhaps casualties - I know this is somewhat hypothetical, but what would you approach have been then?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Why I stood there when the first bomb went off was to guard against those things so when I stood there I had a view of all the place and all the happenings down there so I observed everybody down there so if I could have seen medical personnel, well because a mission is a mission and I had an objective to achieve.

MR WAGNER: Sorry I interrupted you, I didn't get the last part?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I wanted to say it would have been most unfortunate because I had a mission to accomplish.

MR WAGNER: And the mission being to kill as many policemen as possible?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: You heard the statement I put to the previous applicant that the son of my client, Mrs Wilkens, was working in the court building as a Court Orderly and he was in the process doing an administrative functions, nothing more.  Does that have any influence on you approach to this whole operation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: To us a police was a police and a police so whether he was working as a Court Orderly or at a mortuary, because he was in uniform and enforcing apartheid laws upon the Blacks of South Africa, I wouldn't have any choice but to trigger the bomb.

MR WAGNER: And is your answer the same concerning Black policemen?

JOSEPH KGOELE: In fact I would say the ANC never fought a racist war because if I remember my (indistinct) tell me that an enemy could take any colour so what we were fighting here was injustice so anybody who was seen to be enforcing unjust laws upon the Black majority were regarded as an enemy, be he Black, White, Yellow, Green or whatever.

MR WAGNER: The fact that the explosion took place at the Magistrate's Court building, what was the significance of that to you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The significance was that at least we did send a message to the South African regime that time that they also could be killed.

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele are you proud of this act of yours?

JOSEPH KGOELE: If we start (indistinct) being proud, I don't think there's any sane person who could ever be proud about war because war can take anyone.  I would have died that particular day and I won't be here to be facing this so anything could have happened so I can't say I was proud.  I was merely sending a message to the South African regime.

MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking this is, although it's not evidence before this Commission I refer you to the video that I saw and I got the distinct impression that you were boasting, you regarded yourself as a hero for committing this atrocious act.

JOSEPH KGOELE: You know circumstances sometimes can determine a man's attitude.  When that documentary was made one had a different view of South Africa and why I said that is because of the arrogance shown to me by some of the applicants today.  As a human being my patience are not endless.

MR WAGNER: Sorry Mr Kgoele I'm not sure that I'm with you.  The arrogance shown to you by some of the applicants.  I'm not sure what you're referring to.

JOSEPH KGOELE: I'm sorry I wanted to say the families of the victims, because the people who made the documentary wanted us to meet so that I should extend a hand of friendship and tell them and try to reconcile with them so they refused.  Even one of them I think, the father of the person you are defending today, he's on record as saying on that very same documentary that he wanted me for a year so that I could feel the pains that he felt.  So based on that, as I've indicated to you, no man's patience is endless.  We tolerated this but if somebody does not want to reconcile, so I'm not a Messiah.

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele we're somewhat straying from the real issues but I put it to you that that can hardly be seen as arrogance from this victim whose son died, the answer that you've now given.  I can't see in any way how ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As you've said, we're straying from the scene, is it of any relevance?

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele the remote control radio, why did you leave it at the scene?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I didn't want to carry it around, it was too heavy for me because I had a pistol and some hand grenades with me.

MR WAGNER: But you had transport there I assume or weren't your car in the vicinity?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I was a guerrilla so I had to change my ways.  That I had a car it was not necessarily meant that I should use it because maybe somebody might have spotted me in that car, so I had to change.

MR WAGNER: After the explosion, did you remain in South Africa or did you return to Swaziland to report back?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I returned to Swaziland.

MR WAGNER: Was that immediately afterwards or did you stay for some time?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No I stayed for some time.

MR WAGNER: And during that time did you spend time with Mr Mabele and did you the two of you discuss the operation that you've just committed?

JOSEPH KGOELE: It seems that by then Mr Mabele was aware of the operation, I had to make him skip the country.

MR WAGNER: So did he skip the country immediately but you remained?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: And to whom did you report back in Swaziland at the time when you did so?

JOSEPH KGOELE: General Nyanda.

MR WAGNER: And what was his reaction?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No it was just a normal report back.  We were in a war situation so I reported that I've accomplished my mission, that's all.

MR WAGNER: And did he congratulate you on this performance?

JOSEPH KGOELE: We were not in the struggle to receive congratulations, because like I indicated earlier, I would have died.  You don't go into a struggle and think and hope that you'll attack others and you in turn never be attacked.

MR WAGNER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGNER