Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-06-30

MR VAN RENSBERG: Are you aware of the factthat at one stage Mr Mpahlela was a member of the Parliament of the Republicof South Africa?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: No, I am not aware of that. I am not aware of that one.

MR VAN RENSBERG: According to your own knowledge,would you confirm that this Mr Mpahlela knew exactly which farm was going tocome under attack and he in fact ordered you to attack that farm?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: After we have stepped up thereconnaissance, we met with Mr Lethlapa Mpahlela, we briefed him about thisoperation and he authorised.  He has never seen specifically that farm of MrSwanepoel.  What we told him was that it was Mr Swanepoel's farm and we havetargeted it as one of, it was targeted by our Unit and that is all.

MR VAN RENSBERG: So we can at least deductthat he had full knowledge of the operation?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I can say so, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Okay, in your statement,the affidavit which was handed in to evidence this morning, and in particular- pardon your Worship, let me just find the relevant paragraph - paragraph 15thereof,  you gave a definition of the word "criminals" that you usedin your evidence, can you just repeat that?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Criminals, we are referringto the apartheid regime who were, which was a specific word used by the UnitedNations because apartheid was a criminal against humanity and the farmers werepart and parcel of the apartheid government as we all know that they had formedthe Commando Units and all those things.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Is that your definition? Let me ask you this, did you personally agree with that definition of the wordcriminal?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Can you repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBERG: You have now given us aninterpretation of what the United Nations described as criminals, what I wantedto know is did you personally agree with that strange definition of criminals?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Do I agree?

MR VAN RENSBERG: yes?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, I agree of course.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And would your definitionof criminals also include people that kill other people and thereby contravenethe laws of the Republic of South Africa?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Can you repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBERG: The question is does yourdefinition of criminal, your personal definition, also include people that killsother people and thereby contravening the laws of the Republic of South Africa?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, people who contravene thelaws of South Africa, according to the criminal law, they are referred to ascriminals.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, the question is do youpersonally agree with that definition as well?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: At that time, I did not knowor understand the criminal law, but now that because I have learnt or went throughsome study materials, I know that they are referred to as criminals, but bythat time I did not know, I am sorry.

MR VAN RENSBERG: In your statement, or youraffidavit, paragraph 11 you also mentioned that the information you had at thetime, indicated that Mr Swanepoel's farm was a meeting place of right right-wingers,is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It is correct yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Can you give us some indicationwhere this information was coming from?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: We had a Reconnaissance Unitor a Reconnaissance Team that was a sub-Unit from the main Unit.  Its duty wasto gather all the information that might be used or that we might use as theUnit so the Reconnaissance Team during their reconnaissance, they have gatheredsuch information because they interviewed some of the workers but they werenot aware that they were being investigated, but they have also confirmed thatright right-wingers were coming to Mr Swanepoel or were frequenting Mr Swanepoel'splace.

MR VAN RENSBERG: So as far as you were concerned,you only gathered that or someone else told you that?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: The Reconnaissance Team hadcome up with that information.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, who was this ReconnaissanceTeam?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: The late Prince himself waspart of it and Donald Mukhawana.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Donald Mukhawana, that isthe third applicant in this hearing, is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Isn't he the second applicant,oh, in terms of the affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: In terms of the affidavit Chairperson,it is the second applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: On the Bundle, he appears asthe third applicant, but it is the same person, one of the applicants in thismatter.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr chairperson.   Okay, and
 also in the statementthat you have made, which is included  - 
page 9 of theBundle before this Committee, you said that Piet 
Nocir, I suppose that is PietNociri, is that correct -             "...  
gave you someinformation that this owner of the Ganula Chicken 
Farm, obviouslyreferring to Mr Swanepoel, is a white man who 
did not likeblack people and also that he is an AWB member in 
the Tzaneen area.
        This informationcontained or these allegations contained in your statement, did you have firsthand evidence of this yourself or is this also information that you obtainedfrom someone else?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Mr Piet Nociri was not thatmuch involved in our activities, and then I don't remember him telling me aboutsuch information.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Can you remember making thisstatement on the 6th of October 1989?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Can I remember doing what?

MR VAN RENSBERG: 1998, pardon Your Worship. Can you remember making this statement which you will find on page 9 and 10and 11 of the Bundle?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: This statement was not compiledby myself, I am sorry.  The statement you are referring to is the one whichus right here on the table.  It was compiled by Fanie Molapo.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Is it not your signaturethere on page 11?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: This one is not my signature.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Okay, fine, the point I amtrying to make is that it looks like the Reconnaissance Unit supplied you asthe assault group with information that Mr Swanepoel was frequently being visitedby ring right-wingers, that he didn't like black people and that he was an AWBmember in the Tzaneen area.  You accepted that information as correct, you yourself,personally, is that not so?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: No.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Did you perceive it to beincorrect?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Not incorrect, but what is happeningthe reconnaissance will go to the place where we should attack and they shouldstep up information.  They will come with the information to us and now I cannot perceive it as wrong, but if a commander says this is the situation andthen that is how we are going to work.

MR VAN RENSBERG: So it was accepted as correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: By the Unit, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And by yourself?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I am part of the Unit, I cansay.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes.  If I put it to youthat none of these information collected by the Reconnaissance Group is correct,what would you say to that?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I won't agree.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Why not, do you have anyother information to sustain these allegations?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I know we had a very brilliantReconnaissance Team and they cannot just come with incorrect information andaccording to the, one of APLA qualities, we were having some qualities there,qualities of a good fighter, we don't bring information which is not correct,false reports.  They cannot report falsely.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Okay, the question is supposethe day before the attack, you received information that this was all false,that Mr Swanepoel has got no affiliations towards the right and that he is notan AWB member, would you still have carried out that attack?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, we would still carry outthe attack because he was a farmer.