Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: orce had at its disposal? They would have utilised citizen force members by and large and that was one of the main controversies during the 80's the deployment of troops in the townships.

MR DE KLERK: Well on the counter-insurgency forces people who were trained, parabats and that type of thing, at a time if a specific unit was in South Africa, not on the border, it's possible that they might have been used but I would say generally speaking, the natural people to use for crowd control would be the citizen forces and that type of thing.

MR GOOSEN: Yes yes, and so generally speaking the location of the concept of a third force as a crowd control force, as you've indicated, it wouldn't be consonant with that notion to say that that capacity already exists within the arena of Directorate of Special Tasks, Special

<UNKNOWN>: orces, Counter- Insurgency

<UNKNOWN>: orces, and Special Task

<UNKNOWN>: orce elements of both ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: Well I can't, I really can't with authority say what was included in the argument about counter- insurgency forces and how exactly at that stage, I think I was Minister of Education, how exactly at that stage the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: had sort-of distributed responsibility and task, which units under which name for which task. If the question is driving towards the situation that it is read into that that this is actually an admission that already then, there formally already existed another third force, namely this underground third force and that the reference was to such an underground third force, I can honestly say there was never any mention of such a third force, there were constant denials when the word third force first came to the fore. It was part of Judge Goldstone's instructions to ascertain, is there such a third force. In consecutive reports of Judge Goldstone, he made specific statements that he has not found any evidence, notwithstanding his specific instruction to look for it, about the existence of such a third force. And I think in almost his very last report, when Kloppers and Cronje and those people started talking to him, he then in one report said, now he is beginning to believe that there might be such a third force.
Can I just in amplification of my reply read from page 38 of my second submission because I did not just say it's about crowd control. I said,
"Yes in 1985 and '86 the government did consider the possibility of establishing a third force, but never in the sense that the ANC and the media have attached to the term. The proposal was that a third paramilitary force, separate from the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: and SAP should be created to deal specifically with unrest and counter-insurgency operations".
So the scope was not limited just to crowd control, the scope of the proposal, when this was formulated, it was based on those who advised me in this formulation, looking at the documentation again, I haven't refreshed my memory, but the scope also included counter-insurgency operations.

MR GOOSEN: Alright, no I accept that. In fact the end product of those deliberations was consideration of what became known as Option

<UNKNOWN>: our, and it's referred to in the documents. We don't have to go into them in detail at this point. Option

<UNKNOWN>: our of a list of possible options in a debate was adopted by the State Security Council at its meeting on the 12th of May 1986 and there it actually refers to the -
".....setting up of an instrument for planning, coordinating and carrying out of counter-revolutionary actions. Men who carry out actions remain members of their various departments but for the execution of their tasks they are under the command and orders of the head, counter- revolution".
There was then also, on that 12 May at that meeting further discussion of the issue, further decisions where the State Security Council indicates and tasks the defence minister and the minister of law and order at the time, Minister La Grange, with organising -
"... a well trained capacity to effectively wipe out terrorists, the mobility must be provided by the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: and SAP, it must be prepared to be unpopular and even feared without damaging the image of the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: and SAP. It must stand under very strong authority, and furthermore the security forces must work together to bring about the third force so that the underminers are dealt with using their own methods".
That is in fact contained in the State Security Council minute of 12 May 1986. It is in the bundle of documents for your later reference if you wish.
Now you indicate that it was not just for crowd control purposes and I accept that. Can we assume that the establishment of a third force for purposes of crowd control activities would presumably not have been the authorising of a crowd control unit for - to use methods of the revolutionaries in crowd control situations?

MR DE KLERK: Just rephrase the question, you talked a lot before you phrased ...(intervention)

MR GOOSEN: Sorry. You indicate that the notion of the third force was perceived as being for counter-insurgency activities as well as crowd control. You pointed that out in your second submission, I think paragraph, page 38 and 39 where you deal with that question. And it would appear that that much is clear from the State Security Council documentation. Now insofar as the third force was authorised for crowd control activities, presumably those crowd control activities would not be authorised on the basis of utilising the methods of the revolutionaries in crowd control situations. There's a passage in the document which refers to, "underminers are dealt with using their own methods".

MR DE KLERK: But where do I use the word crowd control in my submission?

MR GOOSEN: You indicate Sir that you, you've indicated, you accepted it when I said to you that your ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: But I have now refreshed my memory and I just see that I never used the word crowd control.

MR GOOSEN: You may not have used it there Sir, when I put it to you, you've indicated that it was in addition it also had a counter-insurgency role to play.

MR DE KLERK: To deal specifically with unrest and counter- insurgency. Surely a raucous crowd breaking through things is part of unrest?

MR GOOSEN: Yes I accept that and crowd control ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: It's a type of situation which resulted in many people being killed at Bisho.

MR GOOSEN: Absolutely, I accept that. Part of the function of the third force as conceived would have been to deal with unrest situations, not so, part of which is crowd control?

MR DE KLERK: Yes but what's the problem, the fact is such a third force was never approved.

MR GOOSEN: There's no problem, we're getting to that point. The question I asked is one can presume that in controlling unrest situations then, if you will, that you would not be authorising the body to exercise control over unrest by using the methods of the underminers themselves? They would be using standard policing methods to control crowds and control unrest.

MR DE KLERK: Yes obviously you would be using teargas and you would be using water cannons and so on and I know we went out of our way at certain meetings to make money available to improve our capacity to enable us to do riot control in a way which will not result in deaths or serious bodily harm to anybody.