Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I know that Mr Ngo was brought under the attention of the office that he was assaulted by means of knife stabbings. I did not write this letter.

ADV MEMANI: Let me say to you that what I want you to comment on particularly is that you must be aware of the fact that your office regarded the evidence which Ngo had given about Mohape as satisfactory.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well according to this document, yes.

ADV MEMANI: And you must have known about that didn't you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No I did not write this letter.  I was not involved in this court case, I was not present there.

ADV MEMANI: In 1982 they were convicted on counts of assault and had to spend an unspecified number of days suspended for three years.  The complaints arose from problems he had with a certain scholar who he hit with his hand.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I'm aware that he had a previous criminal record, that was a problem when he was appointed.  I know it was assault but the details I can't remember.  These particulars mentioned here I would agree that these particulars could be correct.

ADV MEMANI: 'Ngo did this because he did not know any better.  He is at present in matric and according to his principal he should complete it successfully.  His application is strongly recommended'.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I see that Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus we are told that you were the chief handler of Mr Ngo isn't it?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: This fact ought to be known to you more than to anyone else in the office.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I was his handler regarding operational work, this is personnel administration.  I know these facts.

ADV MEMANI: And if you look at the top of the letter on the left hand side, the reference is Lt Shaw isn't it?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: So Shaw must be the person who drafted the letter in fact.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct yes.

ADV MEMANI: And yesterday you heard him deny that he had anything to do with the employment of Ngo isn't it?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know whether he denied that Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus I want to refer you to B 63, the first paragraph.  In that letter you are the reference, can you see that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And in the first paragraph you say that this member was employed on the 10th of February 1986 by the force and in fact he joined the force on the 10th of February 1986 and since then has been part of the personnel strength of Batu. You then say that this office had an arrangement with the district commander to employ him temporarily.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now I do not understand then your evidence in chief to the effect that he was not employed by Security Branch.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman Mr Ngo was never a permanent member of the Security Police, he was there in a temporary position.

ADV MEMANI: But a member of the Security Police he was, isn't it.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman the Security Branch members were members of the South African Police Force at that stage.  The Security Branch was a component of the South African Police, just like the Stock Theft Unit.  Mr Ngo was never...(intervention)

ADV MEMANI: Before you go further Mr Erasmus let me bring...(intervention)

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman with respect let him allow the witness to give his answer, it is in respect of a question ...(intervention)

ADV MEMANI: Proceed Mr Erasmus.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He was not on the staff records of the Security Branch, he temporarily worked there.

JUDGE WILSON: Before we go on, did you put to him - I just want to check my notes - that Mr Shaw denied having anything to do with the employment of Ngo?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: My note is immediately after the adjournment that Mr Shaw said, "I together with Erasmus arranged for employment of Ngo despite the fact hat he had a criminal record".

ADV MEMANI: I think Mr Chair I might have been referring to the denial that he had something to do with the application forms and so on.  In that case in any event what I put to the witness cannot stand.

JUDGE WILSON: No you must be careful about what you put to witnesses Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Erasmus, you say in the first paragraph that he joined with the force.  When you refer to the force I am sure that you mean the South African Police.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, this was just a way of writing and the force implies the South African Police force.

ADV MEMANI: I understood you a few moments ago to be saying that he was not a member of the force and therefore could not be a member of the Security Branch.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not correct, everybody were members of the South African Police Force, few people were part of certain units but all of them were policemen.

ADV MEMANI: Now what did you mean when you said that he was employed by this office on a temporary basis?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: His services were used there temporarily, he worked there temporarily.

ADV MEMANI: And do you agree that Ngo was a member of the Security Branch albeit temporarily?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman he was never a member of the Security Branch.  In order to become a member of the Security Branch, security selection had to be gone through, clearance had to be issued, an interview with an officer had to take place, numerous forms had to be completed that had to submitted to Security Head Office and then it would be confirmed only.

ADV MEMANI: But then Mr Erasmus, he was known to you, he was your informer, then he gave you important information.  All these things were known to you.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that is true, he was known to me, he was a good informant.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it true that you regarded him as temporary staff because he had not undergone the processes just referred to.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman these steps were prescribed by Head Office, I was a lieutenant at that stage, I wouldn't dare.  Mr Chair Mr Ngo was not a member of the Security Branch or on it's staff.

ADV MEMANI: But yesterday you also read a letter to Mr Shaw wherein your office was supporting - no no, I think he was applying for adjustment of his salary, in fact from a certain date.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I remember that testimony Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And we were told that he had in fact never worked at Batu Police Station.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I am not sure whether he worked there for a few days, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: During his employment in your office, isn't it correct that he performed duties related to Security Branch only?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman as far as my knowledge goes, in the mornings, he together with the rest of the staff reported to the office and worked with the people and in the afternoon left when they left again.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus what I'm saying to you, isn't it correct that he performed duties relating to Security Branch only?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I did not work with him directly but that his work basically was security work oriented is indeed so.  That was the primary task of the members who worked with him.

MR VISSER: I hate to interrupt my learned friend, but we have been adrift for two and a half hours, is it possible that we could take a break please Mr Chairman?

JUDGE WILSON: Right we'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: (s.u.o.)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman I'd like to say something to the Committee.