Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  As I've said, it was either kill or capture, but capture was definitely not the predominant factor, that was not the ultimate factor.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  You recall that Mr Nofomela gave evidence at the first Piet Retief inquest, the one relating to the first incident.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, but I think that he may have been in prison already.

MR MOERANE: Yes, well he first filed an affidavit where he dealt with his relations with you, the type of person that you were, the question of movement of firearms at Vlakplaas, whether that was controlled, whether there was a register which - do you recall all that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I do recall that.

MR MOERANE: And how you always travelled around with a Makarov or some other weapon or foreign origin.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the operational members of Vlakplaas as well as the askaris who worked in the areas, were very well equipped.

MR MOERANE: So was his evidence in that regard true and correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I would have to read it because I would have to point out whether or not there are things that he may have exaggerated about, or certain omissions that he may have made, which I would need to supplement.  However, I accept what you have put to me.

MR MOERANE: I think his evidence is in the bundles before the Inquiry.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I just want to mention that I do not regard it as misleading.

MR MOERANE: Yes, this is on bundle 3A, page 216 right up page 223, particularly from paragraphs 10 where he says you gave instructions for acts of kidnapping, killing, stealing cars, etc., to be carried out by members of the South African Police.  That you specialised in destruction, you do not believe in arresting anyone because going to Court was a waste of time, with a lot of questions asked.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: While we are at paragraph 10, I just want to rectify something and that is that we did capture quite a few members and bring them back or arrest them.  So that is not entirely correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, when it's a convenient time -I see it's past one, we'll take the adjournment.  But only when you get to the end of a point, when it's convenient.

MR MOERANE: Paragraph 12 for instance, where he says you
"... always carried around firearms and explosives in the boot of your vehicle.  These included uzzis, AK47s, F1 handgrenades, 9mm Berettas and at least one Makarov pistol, at least one Tokarev pistol and a scorpion, but not all weapons captured from infiltrants were registered, some were kept for purposes of infiltration and for planting on infiltrants we had killed."
He says.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, it wasn't for those specific objectives.  With many of our deployments it was foreseen that we may undertake a border crossing and those persons would then be issued, not only with their usual duty weapons, but also with covert weapons and they would also take along their false passports, ID books and credit cards just in case we would have to cross the border at short notice and launch an operation or an attack.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon.  Mr de Kock, you say not specifically for these objectives, but would it have included these objectives, which are presented in paragraph 12?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, without deployment we couldn't assess whether we were going to be involved in a shooting incident, or whether we were going to shoot somebody or plant something.

MR MALAN: But it happened more often.  Were you prepared for such contingencies, because that is the allegation made by Mr Nofomela here.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, let me just put it like this.  When I speak of cross-border operations and what I've referred to here, this would be in reference to weapons which were specially prepared, which used subsonic ammunition, silencers which were not traceable, strange handgrenades, or at least not a strange handgrenade because a handgrenade is a handgrenade, but a handgrenade from an eastern block origin which could not be traced back to the Security Forces.

MR MALAN: Mr de Kock, paragraph 12 which was submitted to you, when you read there
"Major de Kock always carried around ..."
That is what this paragraph is about.  The question is whether this is correct or not.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, not "always", Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So it would have been almost always, is that what you're saying, or would it have been seldom, what was the position?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would say on a 50/50 basis.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Moerane.

MR MOERANE: I suppose you will not have any quarrels with paragraph 14, because it seems to be in line with your evidence.  Where he says
"Many operations under the command of Maj de Kock, in which I participated, were launched from Piet Retief.  Some of them involved activities in Swaziland.  I know W/O Pienaar, who is the Head of the Security Section in Piet Retief.  As I understand the matter, he runs a series of informers there.  The general rule, he would get information from his informers and thereafter ask for people from Vlakplaas to come to Piet Retief.  When we got there a plan of action would be worked out upon information provided by Pienaar.  We would then participate in the execution of the plan."

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, because Swaziland fell under SAP jurisdiction for handling and for infiltration, without exception every month we would have a group in Piet Retief.

MR MOERANE: Then at paragraph 15 he deals with a particular incident.  I don't know if you have applied for amnesty for that particular incident.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I have requested.

MR MOERANE: In paragraph 7 he says the aim of that operation which he described, was to kill all those people who came into the country.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.  Similar to the current situation.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Then finally, he says at paragraph 19
"W/O Ras was known generally as the best marksman at Vlakplaas."

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: He was a good shot, I don't know whether is a good shot still today.  All the members of Vlakplaas were average or above average shots.

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman, this would be a convenient stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane.  We'll now take the lunch adjournment for three quarters of an hour.  We'll resume at 2 o'clock, thank you.

MS LOCKHAT: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, you may continue.

MR MOERANE: (cont)
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Just one or two other issues, Colonel.  When you were asked whether or not an inquest, a formal inquest was held into the second incident, your reply was that no, it was an informal inquest.  And my learned friend for some of the applicants told the Committee that in fact a formal inquest was actually held.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: But I don't blame you for thinking that that was no inquest because when the evidence was led, the representatives of the families were not there.  They tried to secure a postponement, which was unsuccessful, so in effect it went by default so to speak.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Thank you, Chairperson, then it is clear to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, Mr Moerane, I should have mentioned it earlier, we're in Durban now, it gets hot here, if you wish to remove jackets anybody, please feel free to do so.

MR MOERANE: One last aspect is the state of knowledge of Sgt Manzini.  You were asked about that.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And the suggestion was made that he was not aware that what was planned was an ambush.