Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, within the context of that time, we saw the ANC as an enemy because there were bomb attacks on our people in the first place for example the Church Street bombing and we also regarded the ANC as such as a result of our education, we grew up differently, we grew up during a time of Apartheid and we were taught that we should be separate and we were also taught that if there was resistance as such that was carried out by the ANC we were taught to fight back.  I would just like to remind you that we are talking of that time, that's not today, things of changed.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] time, what was the ANC to you, was it any black person, even your gardener?  If he was black, your helper in the house, if she was black was that part of the ANC - automatically?  Simply because of being black?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes it also went broader than the ANC, the National Party was just as great an enemy to us as what the ANC was.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] your evidence you say you had identified the ANC as your total enemy.  Now I want to know what was the ANC in your definition?  Would an innocent person like Mr Makgalamele also have constituted ANC?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The ANC was our enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel, what I think Mr Moloi is trying to get at is, what is your - that is the AWB's perception of who the ANC - who were the members of the ANC at that time?  How did you define the ANC?  He's saying, he's asking you was any black person in your eyes a member of the ANC?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I would just like to describe that in two parts -the ANC was naturally regarded as a great enemy by us, that is very true, we wanted to eliminate them but regarding the terror struggle - with regard to that we said that okay, if a bomb would be planted it would be unfortunately so that if there were people who had to die even people who were actually innocent in order to focus the attention on our struggle for freedom it would unfortunately have to be that way.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] broad outline is that you saw any black person in terms of your policy as a threat and had to deal with him accordingly?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is not entirely correct.  There were many white persons such as Pik Botha and F.W. de Klerk who we also regarded as an enemy within the same context.

MR MOLOI: And what about the ordinary black walking in the street?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes bombs were planted and unfortunately it also meant that white persons could have died in those bomb attacks so unfortunately innocent people would have died and that was part of the struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Gcabashe, any questions?

MS GCABASHE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?
ADV. BOSMAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kriel are you still a member of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, in November of last year I left the AWB.
I can give the reason as well. I had a feeling that the AWB leaders should stand up and come and give evidence on behalf of those in prison and we had a difference of opinion on that point and that was one of the main reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] politics now, did you join one of the groups, the splinter groups?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The moment we succeeded in once I've achieved what I've wanted to achieve with the people who are still in prison, I want nothing to do with politics ever again.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Kriel, the splinter groups such as Die Order van die Dood, I don't know the names of other ones - Aquillo - well that's not really a splinter group - but do they still exist?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No.  Aquillo does not exist any longer, what does exist is the so called "Wen Commando".  The Order of Dood or of Death has been suspended after the elections in 1994 when the Volkstaat Raad was established which gave my leaders the opportunity to motivate a Volkstaat.  All acts of terror were abandoned and suspended.  We have found that the new government, because they were born from a liberation struggle have more respect for us and therefore there have been no further acts of violence and terror.  We have a far better discussions with the new government than with the previous regime.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mostert do you have any questions arising out of any of the questions that have been put?

MR MOSTERT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kriel.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, I have one problem - I would very much like to try and get hold of Mr Binneman to come and testify but we haven't yet been able to trace him so may I ask that the case stand down until tomorrow morning to give me the opportunity to get hold of him?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  do you have no other witnesses to call besides, if you find him, Mr Binneman?

MR MOSTERT: Binneman and I want to see if I can get Mr Eugene Terre'blanche to come and testify, it will be his decision whether he wants to or not.

CHAIRPERSON: This matter was set down for today and tomorrow and seeing that there's no witnesses available today to proceed with, we'll adjourn to tomorrow.  But Mr Mostert I'd like to stress that we'd very much appreciate it if this matter or the leading of the evidence of this matter could be finalised tomorrow because we have a very tight schedule.

MR MOSTERT: I assure you we will finish tomorrow, you can leave it to me.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, 24th March. 1

MR MOSTERT: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 24TH MARCH 1998 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  Proceeding now with the application of Mr Lottering.  Mr Mostert?

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, thank you.  At this stage I could tell the Committee that we've tried to get Mr de Beer, Mr Binneman and Mr Terre'blanche to come here to testify today.  They couldn't be here today or are not interested in being here, they all have apologies and excuses so we're now going to close the applicant's case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mostert.  Mr Steenkamp, we've heard from the evidence yesterday that Mr Dawid de Beer has been implicated as has the AWB and also Mr Fanie Goosen.  Reference has also been made to the Conservative Party but I believe that was just purely hearsay evidence, the implication of the CP.  Were those persons, De Beer and Goosen, given notice of the hearings?

MR STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman, I can maybe just put on record that I firstly spoke to Mr Dawid de Beer numerous times, actually I think three times.  He was officially notified, I did sent him a fax to through his employer which he indicated to me is the way he would like to receive his notice.  This was done on the 3rd January 1998, Mr Chairman, to his employer Mr Rootenberg. I've got a copy of the documents in front of me.  That is Mr Dawid de Beer.  The question of Mr Goosen, I received a report from the Investigation Unit in December, I've asked them to do more efforts to see if they can find Mr Goosen.  I personally spoke to Mr Goosen's mother.  She was reluctant and she also indicated she doesn't know where Mr Goosen was.  My report from the Investigation Unit is that they also couldn't trace 	Mr Goosen at this stage so he couldn't be traced sir.  Just for record purposes, sir, I can just put on record that the AWB was officially notified also on the 30th January 1998 via the offices of Mr Eugene Terre'blanche in Roth Street No 23 of Ventersdorp and the victim in this case or victims in this case, Mr Makgalamele could not be traced as well.  We did however trace his previous employer which indicated to us that she didn't know where Mr Makgalamele or his family could be traced.  I personally then traced Mrs Fereshina Pita.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the complainant in the robbery?