Human Rights Violation Hearings — Middelburg — 1997-06-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Msibi, what I would strongly urge you to do, is to include in your statement, to add to your statement, some of these facts that you have mentioned to us now.  You can do it through our statement-taker.  We've taken it down as well as you've been speaking, but also about your sister's husband, to include his name and to give that to us.
 I mean it is very difficult to know what to say to you in this circumstances, but just to let you know that a few weeks ago, I think it's three weeks ago now, the African National Congress, the ANC was recalled to hearing by the Truth Commission in which questions were put to the ANC, particularly about their campaigns when they decided to intensify, in their language, to intensify the struggle and when land-mines were planted in different parts of the country.  Particularly in farming areas and also areas where they believed there were, there was a military presence.  
 The explanation which the ANC actually gave was that this was - that they considered the planting of land-mines to be legitimate, part of the struggle, in rural areas and also areas where there was a presence of the military, in farming areas, because they believed that the farmers had become part of the military establishment; that they never ever used anti-personnel mines, mines which would explode if a person tramped, stepped on them, because they didn't want to cause harm to civilians as such, but they used what they described as anti-tank mines which required a certain weight to set the mine off.  
 But they claimed, they went further and said that in a process of this campaign, what they discovered was that many people were caught in the cross-fire; that often farmers would be transporting labourers on their bakkies and that weight would cause the mine to go off; that many innocent people who were also getting caught, and that the then President, the late Oliver Thambo actually called in the MK commanders and said to them to discontinue this campaign of planting land-mines and they stopped doing that as a result of the consequences, what they saw actually happening.  
 They also made a general apology for deaths caused as result of the campaign that they have been waging.  Now I don't know if this is, fits into what they were doing, but I'm just responding to some of the things you've said.  The police saying that the mines were of Russian origin and the fact that the mine was planted near to what appears to have been a military base, a military camp.  
 But we do have their full, we do have a submission in which they indicate places where they were active and they also list some of the events which they say they were responsible for.  
 But that's what I can offer you as a preliminary explanation now.  Hopefully we will be able to follow up on some of this, but I don't really have anything more to ask you;  just to pass my condolences and I will hand you back to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Ally.  Any follow up questions, Ms Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Msibi, you've mentioned that your mother and your sister were in this bakkie and you said that there was one survivor, James Morte.  But can you tell me the names of the other people, if you know them, who were also in the bakkie that day?

MR MSIBI: I only know the surname, the only one I knew, his name was James Morte.  It's Mrs Tole, Morte, my sister and my mother.  There were four.  James Morte survived.

YASMINE SOOKA: Does he still, do you know where he lives?

MR MSIBI: Yes, I do.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you able to supply the, our briefer with his address?  We will appreciate it, because it then means we could try and get more information from him.

YASMINE SOOKA: I won't be able to give you his address, but I know where he stays.

YASMINE SOOKA: Okay.  We'll ask our briefer to get that from you.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Meiring.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Msibi, you said that your mother and your sister died.  I need a little bit information about your mother and your sister and the children.  How old was your mother when she passed away?

MR MSIBI: My mother was born in 1911 and she died in 1987.  I can't calculate at the moment as to how old she were.  My sister was born at about 1952 and she died in 1987 too.  She was born in 1952 and died in 1987.

PROF MEIRING: And if I remember correctly, there were four children from your sister?

MR MSIBI: That's correct.

PROF MEIRING: How old are they and what are they doing at the moment, the children?  Are they still at school?

MR MSIBI: They are still at school.  However, I can't remember all their ages.

PROF MEIRING: But they are still at school, they are not working?

MR MSIBI: Yes, that's correct.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, thank you very much for your evidence.  I thought again of the words of Rev Komalu about establishing the truth in a way that would lead to and in the spirit of reconciliation.
 I thank you for coming to us and also the frame within which you gave your evidence.  Thank you very much.
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