Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR VISSER: And was it Mr Motsamai that took you there?

MS PHAHLANE: They said I should go and then I left for the kitchen.  They were following me because when I entered the kitchen, they also entered, calling the others.

MR VISSER: No for what reason did Mr Motsamai then assault you in the kitchen, do you know?

MS PHAHLANE: I do not know.

MR VISSER: Didn't he say anything before he did so?  Did he ask you any questions which you refused to answer, any reason at all?

MS PHAHLANE: I do not know, he just told me that I thought I was clever, and yet I was not.  And that we have met early today.

MR VISSER: All right.  Let's come to Mr Mamome.  Before we go on to him, are those the only three people that you say assaulted you during the whole period of your detention in April 1985, after you were arrested by the South African Defence Force?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct), she didn't say these were the only three.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am asking her whether they are, with respect.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the problem that I have with this is that my learned friend - the consequences of the happening, he is taking them out of sequence.  When he did the cross-examination, he asked them to mention all the names and the names were mentioned.
	Then he started and took her out of the kitchen where the first assault took place, then he took her back to the kitchen and asked her whether those were the only persons.

ADV DE JAGER: With all respect Mr Stander, I have taken notes and that is not how it happened.  He said mention what everyone did and his words were, I wrote it down,  who were the people that assaulted you and how did they assault you.  He started off with that, and when she mentioned the names, and then she started with Ngo what he did.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, (indistinct)

ADV DE JAGER: ... who assaulted her and what they did to her.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I am prepared ...

ADV DE JAGER: (Indistinct) leave it to the witness to give the evidence please.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, with all due respect, I hear what you are saying, but I understood it to be that we are busy with a sequence of events.
	That is why I am of the opinion that the same mistake would have been made by the witness and that is why I objected.  If my learned friend will just put it to her, I am not only speaking of the events as they occurred, but the total events so that she can also understand it, then I will agree that he can continue with his cross-examination in this way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... what happened, and I think there is some point in what you are saying because after the witness mentioned all this people including Du Plooy and others, she started, she was caused to start describing the assault.  Mr Visser said first let's start with Mr Ngo.
	She started with Ngo, then moved to Motsamai and then moved over to Mamome and whilst she was still describing what happened with Mamome, at a certain point, according to my notes, Mr Visser interrupted and asked the witness, why did you take long to answer when Judge Wilson was asking you about who is this person.
	And that was when Mr Brink explained that it was his interpretation.  After that, Mr Visser actually took the witness back to Ngo's aspect.  And then the witness described how she was assaulted and she fell onto the chair and then thereafter Mr Visser said are these the only people that assaulted you, something like that.
	It wasn't fair to do it in that fashion.

MR STANDER: I agree, those are the grounds for my objections.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)  when you said are these the only three, you had not given her the opportunity Mr Visser, I suggest you do so.

MR VISSER: I accept Mr Chairman, I am not here to fight I am just here after the truth.  I accept what you say and I will accept your ruling.
	The question was Ms Phahlane, we would like to know of everybody that you know assaulted you and how they assaulted you.  You have told us about Mr Ngo in an office and Mr Motsamai.

MS PHAHLANE: About Mamome sir?

MR VISSER: About anything about assaults on your Ms Phahlane.

MS PHAHLANE: When I left Mamome's office, I went back to the kitchen.  While I was sitting in the kitchen, Mr Erasmus came and he took me to his room and he was also interrogating me, asking me questions.
	And we did not agree and I just heard a person blindfolding me, because you were ordered to sit on the chair, not to look on the sides, who is opening the door, who is closing the door.
	I heard a person approaching, then they blindfolded me and I fell and kicks followed thereafter, and I could not see who was kicking me because I was blindfolded, I could not see what was happening.
	When I regained consciousness, it was Mr Ngo and Mr Erasmus in that room.  Thereafter, Ngo took me to the kitchen, I laid by my side, on my side in the kitchen, not knowing what to do.
	I didn't want to do anything, I felt bruises in my body.  I just wanted to lay on my side.  The next day I was taken to Mr Du Plooy, he took photo's of me, he asked me questions, he slapped me with open hands, and he said you are refusing to give us the truth and he took me upstairs into the kitchen.
	These are the people who assaulted me.

MR VISSER: And is this exactly what you told Mr Stander when you consulted with him about your evidence yesterday?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, please stop me if I am wrong, but it is my recollection that you mentioned nothing about the assault of Mr Mamome on you that you testified here today about.  Am I right or am I wrong?

MS PHAHLANE: You said I should mention the names of all the people who were at the parade, you did not ask me a question about people who assaulted me, all the people who assaulted me.
	I gave you all the names of the policemen who were there when we were brought to that place.

MR VISSER: Mr Phahlane, you know and I know that what you have just said, is not the truth.  I have made it very clear to you that I am talking about people who assaulted you.  I never asked you who were on the parade, so that answer of yours is untruthful.
	What I am asking you is, yesterday when you were led in evidence in chief, you referred this Committee to a whole list of names, I have read them to you today, and now I asked you who assaulted you and now suddenly you come out with Mr Mamome after yesterday you only spoke of Mr Ngo, Mr Motsamai and Mr Du Plooy, am I right?

MS PHAHLANE: You are right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser ...

CHAIRPERSON: Who did she say she spoke of yesterday?

MR VISSER: Yesterday she spoke, Mr Chairman, of three persons that assaulted her.  The one was Mr Ngo, the other was Mr Motsamai and the other was Mr Du Plooy.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Mr Erasmus?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, if I can just assist you.  My learned friend here next to me, and I am very grateful to him, have written down the names, while I was busy I could not write down the names, but he wrote it down and they started with Mamome, Motsamai, Ngo, Tsoametsi, Erasmus, Du Plooy and Mmelesi.
	I can recall this specifically and my learned friend wrote it down specifically.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, according to my notes she said that she was assaulted also by Ngo and she mentions Ngo, Du Plooy who also took photo's of me, she said so yesterday.

MR VISSER: Motsamai and I have forgotten about Erasmus, she also mentioned Erasmus.  She mentioned four.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I was assaulted by Erasmus, Ngo, Motsamai, Mamome.  Erasmus used the tube, the other thing which she said.  Motsamai clapped me, Du Plooy also clapped me.  I think she mentioned all of them yesterday as well.