Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose.  I find it very strange that it should be dangerous for you and your comrades to come back to find out the identity of the person who you had shot, because you saw that the others had actually escaped whilst you were pursuing them and by the time you came back, you say you all went back to your respective homes.  Surely as people who were under constant attack, as you want us to believe you, you would have had an interest to go back with your group, which wouldn't have been that unsafe because you knew then that they had escaped, to establish the identity of the person that you had shot.
	I want to put it to you that there was nothing that would have posed danger on you and your group to have been able to establish the identity of the person that you had shot at.

MR CELE: It was dangerous because we did not know where the others had escaped to.  If we had gone back to establish that identity, it could be that the rest would have come back and attacked us.

CHAIRPERSON: You must bear in mind the evidence that you've already led before us.  This person died not too far away from your own home.  Now what dangers would have been posed by that kind of locality?

MR CELE: It is not safe when you fight at night because you may assume that people have escaped, run away whilst they're hiding somewhere and when you return to check up on something, those same people may as well just spring up on you and attack you.

MR MALAN: Mr Cele, why did you not check the next morning when the sun was up?  Why did you not go back to that place where you knew you had shot a person?  You didn't know the identity of your attackers, but you make no effort to establish their identity.

MR CELE: The intention was to defend myself and to protect myself and I had already done that.

MR MALAN: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, do you have any re-examination to do on Mr Cele?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson, I don't have any questions for Mr Cele.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOHLANYE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, I just want clarity on one thing.  It has been your evidence that you didn't know  who your attackers were on that night, you however, suspected that it must be the same people that you had released about three days ago after you had sjamboked them at the hills, is that not so?

MR CELE: Yes, I did have such suspicions, because even the area was not safe at the time because people were coming to your house, rob you and leave you just like that.  No-one was safe in the area at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have then had some misgivings why you had even released them on the 25th, is that not so?  That thought must have crossed your mind.

MR CELE: Yes, it did occur to me that yes, we should not have released them, because to assault somebody and then to release him is dangerous.

CHAIRPERSON: And after you had shot at this person that you didn't know, you make no effort to establish his exact identity the next day in order to make sure that what you had been thinking is either disproved or confirmed, that these people were still constantly coming back to you.

MR CELE: No, I did not make any attempts.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR CELE: I did not regard that as important to establish the person's identity.  I did not see the need to go and check.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though you fear that it could be the same people that you had released three days ago?  And if that is so, there was a possibility of them coming back to attack you again.

MR CELE: Yes, I was suspicious that it could be them, but there was nothing else I could do except to keep watch and remain alert, so that whoever comes, whether they be a criminal or people from an opposing organisation, we had to defend ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take this issue up with any of the ANC structures in your area?

MR CELE: The only people that we informed were those who were part of that structure.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about a formal ANC structure in your area.  Was this reported to a formal ANC structure in your area?

MR CELE: An ANC structure?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(no English interpretation)

MR CELE: We could not report to any ANC structure, we only reported to the structure that was in the area.  Because even the police were pursuing us, they were shooting at us because of the people we had assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have discussed with the people who had been there the night before, about the attack that had occurred on that night.  Did you not on the following day, with the people who had participated in assisting you in returning fire against those who were attacking you at your home, did you not discuss this incident the next day?

MR CELE: Normally there would be a meeting held to discuss such matters, but because of the situation at the time, there were police around.  There was no time to hold such a meeting.  The police even mentioned when they came to our homes, that their intention was not to arrest us, but to kill us.  If they found you or they came upon a meeting, the only thing that they did was shoot at people.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not informally discuss with the people who had come to your defence, being your neighbours, about the incident that had happened the night before?

MR CELE: We only held such discussions when we returned from pursuing them and we all felt that it could be those persons who had been assaulted, but a formal meeting was never held.

CHAIRPERSON: And the next day you never went to investigate about the identity of the person that you had shot at the night before?

MR CELE: No, I could not do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though this happened just a few paces away from your house.

MR CELE: A place that would be near my home would be something that happens just outside the gate.  As I mentioned before, the distance was about four times this hall.  I would not have just gone to check there.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking a distance of approximately 150 yards, are we not?  Would you regard that as being that long?  To me that's a fairly short distance.

MR CELE: It was not very far.  I could have gone, but it was not easy.  It did not occur to me to go and check who that person was.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, we take it that this is the end of the applicant's case.  Do you propose to call any further witnesses to support the Cele applications?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I would like to call only one witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what would be the import of his evidence, before we allow him to come and give evidence?  Can you briefly give an indication to this Committee as to what would be the import of his evidence?  If you don't mind.

MR MOLOHLANYE: I think the importance would be in connection with Roy Cele, the second application, that he was there, he was present when Mr Amos Cele was shot.  Both of them were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, you obviously are aware that Mr Roy Cele is unable to say who he shot at.  That is the evidence before us.

MR MOLOHLANYE: That's correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now of what relevance will the witness whom you propose to call, shed in respect of the identity of the person that is alleged to have been shot by Mr Roy Cele?  Will he be able to shed more light about who that person was?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Not necessarily as to identity, but in terms of the area where the person was shot and how far the person was from where they were and could they easily identify the person from that distance.  Taking into consideration that it was also in the evening and it was dark.  That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, without even consulting my Committee, and I will do so immediately, those facts are not in dispute and they're not material to us ultimately, satisfying ourselves whether Mr Cele qualifies for amnesty or not.