Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

MR MOHLABA: Mr Chairman, if I may be of assistance, the background of the events indicate that it was Morwaeng who wanted to know why the deceased had been looking for him as opposed to this applicant. Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you very much. Do you know anything at all about that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do.

ADV GCABASHE: Tell us what you do know about your brother saying to Phinneas, "why were you looking for me last night?"

JOHN SERAME GULU: On that day he was killed, there was that question asked from him, before they grabbed each other. I remember there was that question from my brother directed to the deceased. And that is when the fight started.

ADV GCABASHE: But you see, I asked you was there any discussion that you recall that occurred at that point in time that you can share with us, and you said no, ten minutes ago. Do you recall that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do remember you asking me that question and then when I answer I said I didn't hear what they were talking about. What I saw is when the deceased grabbed him, and my brother also doing the same, grabbing him. But I didn't hear what they were talking about.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, what were you agreeing to in respect of you brother saying to Phinneas, "I hear you were looking for me last night." Did you hear that at all?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I've already explained that when you asked me your question. I said I didn't hear what he said to Phinneas or what Phinneas said to him.

ADV GCABASHE: When did you first hear about this statement? That Frans made, saying "I hear you were looking for me last night".

JOHN SERAME GULU: I remembered that because ... (indistinct) question and this question is directed to me and then now I remember that when the fight is started, this might be the question that my brother asked the deceased before they grabbed each other. But, although I did not hear that.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Gulu. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Mohlaba?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson. Just one aspect.

UNKNOWN: I just want to follow up on a view issues if I can just ask a follow-up question on this last area explored. Do I understand correctly that you say this question that your brother, Morwaeng, put to Phinneas, that this could have started the fight?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I agree that it might have been the question that started the fight.

UNKNOWN: Can you, you did cover it twice already, but how were you attacked by the others? Was it before your brother and the deceased grabbed each other, or were you attacked after this fight?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I was attacked when my brother and the deceased were already fighting, that's when the others came to me and attacked me.

UNKNOWN: So did you see them fighting even before you were attacked?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct. I saw them when they grabbed each other before I was attacked.

UNKNOWN: But you did not hear the discussion that led up to the fight?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I did not anything between the two of them before they grabbed each other.

UNKNOWN: May I just pursue the relationship between yourself and the deceased, Phinneas. You say that you were both members of the ANC Youth League?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: You sang in the same choir, or you sang together in the League?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, Chair.

UNKNOWN: When was the Youth League established in Postmasburg?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I do not remember, sir.

UNKNOWN: But it was after the unbanning of the ANC, I would assume, it wasn't 1990, somewhere?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I would say it was after the 2nd of February, after the release of the President.

UNKNOWN: Right. For how long were you together in the Youth League?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I knew that he was a member of the ANC Youth League, but he was not, he has not been a member for a long time. And then the first time he came to me was on Saturday when they were coming to meet me to recruit me for the gang. And then that is when I realised he is no longer the member of the ANC Youth League that day.

UNKNOWN: Right. If this was 1990, and if the information before us is correct, that the deceased was 18 years old when he died, he must have been about six, yes, he must have been 16 years and in Std 8 in 1990. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I do not know his birth date, but because it is written here, I will agree.

UNKNOWN: But he was still at school?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Well, I don't know, Commissioner, but I will agree with what is put before this Commission.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gulu, according to your application, you were born in August 1967. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, Chair.

UNKNOWN: So, in 1992, in May, you were already 24 years old, going on 25. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, Chair.

UNKNOWN: Now, you agreed with this statement of Mr Morwaeng, in his original application, you know that he withdrew his application?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that's true, I know.

UNKNOWN: And in this statement where you agreed with 2.2, point 3 was read out to you by Mr Steenkamp, where Mr, where your brother Frans says, "the Eagles, they called themselves the Eagles only up to 1990. And then they changed the name to Stachet Lovers." Can you see that, it's on page 20 of the bundle. It was read out to you earlier.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that's correct, Chair.

UNKNOWN: Now, in your application, I can refer you to page 10, you refer to this new name as "Stershers". Can you tell us what was the name of this group? What did they call themselves?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I know it by the name of Eagles and thereafter they called themselves Stershers Lovers, that's the two names that I know.

UNKNOWN: Do you know how that name is spelt? Stershers Lovers.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I know how it is written.

UNKNOWN: Could you spell it to us? Just for the record.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Stechers.

UNKNOWN: Stechers. Can you just pronounce it just once again, just for my edification?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Stechers Lovers.

UNKNOWN: Stechers Lovers. Now, who were members of this gang? Who were the members and the leadership of this gang in the community?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's Phinneas Montso, Amos Molele, John Mfana, Peace Molele and I don't remember the others, there were so many that I don't know their names.

UNKNOWN: How many, more or less, if you say there were so many? Twenty, or a hundred, two thousand? How many? More or less.

JOHN SERAME GULU: There were many, but I cannot say the number.

UNKNOWN: Was Phinneas their leader?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, Chair.

UNKNOWN: When he came to recruit you, was he then already the leader?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. He was already the leader of this group.

UNKNOWN: When he was in Std 8? Was he at school then?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He was still at school, but I don't know in which standard he was.

UNKNOWN: Were you already working then? Were you employed then?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I was already employed at that time.

UNKNOWN: Why did he approach you? Did you know each other well? Why would he have approached you?

JOHN SERAME GULU: We knew each other very well and the reason why he came to me was that he was recruiting for Eagles, that is the reason why he came to me. He wanted to recruit me so that I join the Eagles gang.

UNKNOWN: And he was the leader at the time he recruited you.

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, he was the leader of the Eagles.

UNKNOWN: In your evidence earlier, you said that when he visited you he was drunk and he had bananas and, I think, apples, and said they got it from the Eagles gang and he wanted you to join. Do you remember saying that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do remember, that's true.

UNKNOWN: Was he very drunk?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He was not that drunk, but they were still drinking that time, because they had liquor and apples and bananas.