Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That I said.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have to destroy it to stop it working, you'd taken the batteries out.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: The problem here is that times then are different from times today, the situation that prevailed then is a different one, and another thing you should take into consideration is the fact that we react different from different situations as individuals.  That's how I reacted to the situation that I was facing at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a trained commander for Special Operations.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it not enter your head that it might be quite important to Umkhonto and the ANC to get hold of a copy of the Security Police transmitters so they could eavesdrop on them, so that they could see what they were using?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That's important for me to have done but unfortunately it did not happen that way.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Richard, we keep on interposing.
	When you reported this operation to Aquino in Lusaka, what was his reaction?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: He wanted me to sit down with him and explain in detail to him, and I did that.

ADV SANDI: So you gave him all the details, and I would assume that you mentioned the name of the deceased, you did not just say it was some boy from Soweto that you killed, you said it was Sicelo Dhlomo?  Did you go as far as that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true, I did make mention of his name.

ADV SANDI: Yesterday you said you were expecting Aquino to convey the report to Tommy whom you said was Dumakude, is that correct?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did Dumakude at any stage, subsequent to your giving the report to Aquino, did he ever confirm having received such a report from Aquino?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I have already explained I was not reporting directly to Dumakude, that much I don't know.

ADV SANDI: Did you not see Dumakude after you had given the report to Aquino?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I did see him but we did not discuss this matter or talk about this.

ADV SANDI: He never mentioned anything to you about having received such a report from Aquino?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Not at all, that did not come up.

ADV SANDI: Did anything prevent you from mentioning the killing of Sicelo to Dumakude?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: First of all in MK we had this philosophy of need-to-know, that maybe he was not told.  If he did not initiate that, I did not see it important for me to tell him.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you think it important to tell your operational commander that one of your cells had been infiltrated by a Security Police informer?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That was important.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you tell that that had happened and you had to execute the informer?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: What I told myself was that if he got the report, that was enough.  Him as a commander should have approached me.

CHAIRPERSON: But you met him and saw him before you had reported, when he would have known nothing about it.  That was when the Ellis Park bombing took place.  Do you not agree that it was important that he should know there had been infiltration of one of the cells and that it might be at risk?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That I am not disagreeing with you on, it was quite important, but we had this chain of command that we adhered to.  As a soldier who was disciplined and displaying discipline as well, if Duma had asked me I know I would have told him, but he did not bother to ask.  This is why I did not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he would not have known because you had made no report then.  Don't keep on saying he didn't bother to ask, you had not reported to your senior at that stage and you have agreed it was quite important that he should know.  Why didn't you tell him?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I wouldn't have said it to him directly because I had other people that I was accountable to, to report to, then the flow of information would have got to him from the people I reported directly to.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would leave him walking around here, perhaps getting trapped by the Security Police because he didn't know that there had been this infiltration, because you were sticking to the chain of command, is that what you would have us believe, Mr Dube?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, I'd already facilitated the security measures, so there was no threat prevailing then.  It was a different ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dube, the threat was what he may have told them over the previous three months.  You didn't know, you didn't take any steps to find out what he had told the Security Police, you've told  us that today.  You here have a senior officer there at a time when you have told us that your chain of command through Botswana, I think it was, was not operating, that you had to go to Lusaka a month later to report to Aquino.  Do you remember you've told us all that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you, when you had a senior officer there, you were in personal contact with him, why didn't you tell him of this problem that had arisen and what you had done to overcome it?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Firstly that had not posed any problem or there was no problem existing then because after the shooting of Sicelo I ensured that things are in place insofar as security is concerned.  Secondly, Duma could never meet with me at the scene of Emdeni, he met with me in a different place altogether because he was there for a different mission altogether.

CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct then in assuming from what you have just told us, that after the shooting of this alleged informer there was no Security Police response, that you had everything under control?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I don't remember encountering problems from the police because I evacuated and took the necessary precautions to ensure their safety, as I have already explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the other three all evacuate?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, they did not because that would have raised some suspicions.

CHAIRPERSON: But the Security Police were listening on the transmitter, how do you say it would have raised some suspicion?  They would have heard you talking to the man just before he was murdered, wouldn't they? - on your version.  You've told us you were frightened at who was listening to the conversation.  Do you remember that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you take the man a couple of kilometres away, shoot him and leave his body lying in the open.  Was this your covering up?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Firstly, the conversation I had with Sicelo was so brief, such that I even discovered that transmitter from him and destroyed it subsequently.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Thank you, Chair.
	Now as I understand it if I'm correct, after the execution, Clive, Sipho and Precious all went their own ways and went home, isn't that correct?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, we parted after a few minutes.

MR RICHARD: And they continued to live at home without any change of activity or change of residence from then on, they didn't immediately change residence or go somewhere else or change towns.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: One thing I raised first with them was the fact that they should be very careful and not stay full-time at their various or respective houses.  This is why I also initiated to arrange some place for them.  So that lay entirely on the shoulders of the commander, the cell commander that is.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they go to other places or did they stay at home? - was the question as I understood it.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: After this incident I don't remember as to what happened or transpired because I had already left.

MR RICHARD: Where did you leave to, where did you go?