Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR MOERANE: Now what gave you the impression that the criminal justice system couldn't cope with those people who were coming into the country after say 1984?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: We were completely involved in a struggle of war, conditions had deteriorated in the sense that attacks involving acts of terrorism, had just multiplied and it was clear at that stage, that they did not respect the laws of our country at all.  There was only one way, according to my own experience at that stage, and that was that we also had to take unorthodox actions, just as they did in an attempt to bring stability to the country and to prevent that innocent people be killed by means of explosive devices and other acts of terrorism.   We went out to take out trained persons, to arrest them or the eliminate them if need be, not innocent persons.

MR MOERANE: How would you know that persons coming through, would be firstly trained people?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, we as a Security Branch made our determinations based upon the information that we received from outside sources regarding places from where persons would be infiltrating our country.

MR MOERANE: Reliable sources?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is what I meant, yes.

MR MOERANE: You must have been aware in your long experience as a member of the Security Branch of the South African Police that some of the people who infiltrated the country, did so unarmed, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is entirely correct.  Those were cases which were also successful, during which these persons would use false names and false documents in order to gain entry through a border post, normally such persons would not have firearms on them, that was a completely different story.   When they cross the border fence at another place than a control point or post, then one could be sure that such persons would definitely not be entering the country unarmed, because they would be determined to execute a specific order and they would not want to be unsuccessful in the execution of their orders, they wanted to succeed, in other words nothing would stop them.

MR MOERANE: Well, we have evidence before this hearings, that the people that came into the country, that infiltrated, that didn't go through the normal border channels, were not armed?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I heard that during this hearing, and that was reference to the first incident in which I was not involved at all, and I was also not involved in the informer network.

MR MOERANE: And it must have come to your attention that some trained people came into the country for political reasons and purposes, rather than military purposes?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: These persons were still trained persons.

MR MOERANE: I see, so the idea was to eliminate trained people of the ANC?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: If he could not be apprehended and if circumstances dictated it, certainly.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that by adopting this attitude, you were now arrogating to yourself the position of executioner?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Under those circumstances which we experienced during that time, Chairperson, I had no problem with that.  Today it is another situation.

MR MOERANE: So you had absolutely no problem with judging, convicting and executing an ANC person without a hearing?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, I don't think it is only myself, I think that came from both sides.  It was not only from the Security Forces' side, for sure an armed person will not wait if I show him my police appointment certificates and explain his rights to him, he will not wait until he shoots me.

MR MOERANE: I am just trying to establish what your state of mind is when you decided to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct, I believed it and that is how I did it.

MR MOERANE: And you knew it was murder and it was regarded as murder by the South African law, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, it is as the Bible says, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and that is it.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but as a policeman, as a policeman, you knew it was murder, not so?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.

MR MOERANE: And if you had committed it, you knew that if you confessed to it being murder, you would be prosecuted?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct Chairperson, that is why I am participating in these proceedings today.  And I believe that the Honourable Committee will consider my amnesty application, thank you very much.

MR MOERANE: So it was necessary, in fact it went with the territory, that you would cover up unlawful needs, as you did for instance in the statement with the help of Brigadier Van Wyk?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: For sure, yes.

MR MOERANE: With regard to your statement in connection with the events of the 12th, I am suggesting to you that in certain respects you are still following the same procedure, let me explain to you what I mean.    Your statement is identical to that of six others.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: It that was the case Chairperson, up to now, I have not read the other people's statements.  I separately consulted with my legal representatives and I am certain that they used modern technology, a computer, to draw up these statements and I do not have a problem with that.   If there is something that might have changed, that came to the fore now, it just indicates my honesty before the Honourable Committee that we rectify it today, because it is my last chance to put it right here.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that you deposed to your statement in Delmas on the 13th of December, the same as some of the others, with the same Commissioner of Oaths, Mr Prinsloo, page 209?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: You have also stated the position in the six paragraphs in precisely the same words as the others?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he hasn't seen the other statements, but he didn't dispute it when you put it earlier Mr Moerane.

MR MOERANE: Tell the Honourable Committee about the first shooting incident, how the person from the kombi shot.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, I have already mentioned that when we ran towards the vehicle, after Manzini had jumped out and ran around the front of the kombi, I saw  the left front door opening after which I saw a flash.  I also mentioned in my evidence in chief, that between Van Zweel and I, he was on my left, I hard a bullet ricocheting from the tarred surface and afterwards, we started shooting.  Everything happened very quickly.  Colonel De Kock has a loud voice, he shouted properly cease fire, and everybody stopped shooting, and that was the end of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry Mr Moerane, so you say that that shot that ricocheted off the road, probably came from that flash that you saw at the left front door?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct Chairperson, that is the assumption that I made.

CHAIRPERSON: So that shot would have then been directed to the back of the vehicle because you were running you said from the behind of the vehicle?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is right Chairperson, but in my evidence in chief I said that the kombi stopped diagonally, it did not stop parallel in the road, it stopped diagonally but the shot was fired in our direction.  With the day of the reconstruction of the scene, we also saw that specific mark on the tar road, that is a tar road that is very quiet, it is not used very often and the time period from the incident, it was not tarred again up to the time that we made the reconstruction, otherwise we would not have found that mark.  It assisted us in determining our position.

MR MOERANE: Mr Rorich, did you wait that night until the following morning to identify this mark, I am talking about now the 12th and the 13th of December?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No.