Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: No, no you are being asked about where did you meet Dandala. Was Dandala present at Barkley East? Is that where you met him? Did you meet Dandala at Barkley East at the beginning?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I met him at Barkley East first time.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. And he gave you a list together with photographs of the so-called terrorists to be captured?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I agree.

MR DUKADA: Was it not much more easier for the police at Nxala to simply go and arrest Batandwa from his home than travelling from Vlakplaas, Barkley East and to Nxala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: In terms of what they explained to us they said it was easier for us because we know these people. We can identify those people unlike the policemen who may go and want and then search for these people. Sometimes they may meet this person and not identify this person. We are able to identify him as the correct one.

MR DUKADA: No Mr Shabalala, Batandwa Ndondo was at his own place of residence. He was known by people there. The police at Nxala would have simply enquired about his place of residence and trace him without any difficulty. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I agree with you.

MR DUKADA: It was not a question of an ANC cadre who grow up in Transkei who had been in hiding in Soweto, a big place. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I did not know. I did not know. Now you are telling me that it was a known person. I thought it was some one who was not known. Somebody who was hiding, who was dangerous to them. We did not know that it was a person they knew, thinking that it is some one they could not find. They included him in that list, the one they gave to us.

MR DUKADA: Do you think that Shosha was not aware that Ndondo's home was at Nxala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No Shosha it seems did not know because we were looking around. She did not know.

MR DUKADA: Now let us just come from the beginning of your evidence in chief now Mr Shabalala. What is your standard of education?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Standard eight.

MR DUKADA: And what was your occupation before you left the country to join the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I was a machine operator at ISCOR.

MR DUKADA: Did you belong to any political organisation at that time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DUKADA: And obviously when you skipped the country you found that there was something inherently wrong with the Apartheid government in power then.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Then why did you skip the country?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was a friend of mine who took me to them saying that I am getting too little from ISCOR, being people who were trying to get work elsewhere.

MR DUKADA: Did you leave the country in order to get a more remunerative job or to join the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: You see where I stayed the ANC was not a known entity.

MR DUKADA: No but my question is that you have already indicated that you left the country. Now what I am asking you the reasons for leaving the country did you want to get a more remunerative job or to join the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I wanted to get a better paying job not to join the ANC.

MR DUKADA: After having left the country did you ever join the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I found myself in that problem.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying that you found yourself in that problem? Did you join the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say is the ANC robbed me from the onset. This fellow I was moving with knew very well that I would not be coming back. I joined the ANC having been compelled because I was already outside of the country. I could not come back home.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Are you saying you were forced to join the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct I think they also know it.

MR DUKADA: And then in your evidence you have already indicated that you stayed with the ANC for 4 years?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: Are you also saying that you were forced to remain with the ANC for 4 years?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I had no way. I could not make any chance.

MR DUKADA: Are you also saying Mr Shabalala that you were forced by the authorities of the ANC to remain with it for 4 years?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct, that was so.

MR DUKADA: And yet it was easy for you to leave the ANC and come back home?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That it became easy for me to run away was because I endured a lot of hardship until I left it.

MR DUKADA: And after the hardships you experienced with the ANC surely you became hostile to the ANC. Am I correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not hate it that much as to be hostile to it. No.

MR DUKADA: Did you like the organisation after you had left it and joined South Africa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No that was the time I had split with them trying to build my own life. Trying to live my life as I wanted.

MR DUKADA: Mr Shabalala the question is very simple to you. After having left the ANC and come back home did you like the ANC or did you hate the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say it was the same. I was not interested. I did not like or did not hate. I was not interested.

MR DUKADA: From you Mr Shabalala the impression I gained is that you are a person who has never had interest in politics. Am I correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I had no interest in politics.

MR DUKADA: And for you to go to exile and join the ANC it was just a hobby. Am I correct.

CHAIRPERSON: His evidence is that he left the country to go to Swaziland to look for a better paying job. It was only when he was outside the country that the conditions were such that he was compelled by those conditions to join the ANC. That doesn't suggest itself as being a hobby.

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairman to interrupt you. Thank you Mr Chairman. As I understand you, you as a person not having interest in politics at all you went to the ANC in order to get a better job and nothing else.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No, nothing else.

MR DUKADA: And even when you joined Vlakplaas you wanted a better job and nothing else.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Even then it was the same. I could not go this way or that way. I was compelled to join.

MR DUKADA: Yes Sir but what I am saying to you when you decided to come back home and join the South African Police you had no interest in politics at all. You wanted simply to get a better job.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When I returned home, at my return home I thought I was going to stay home and not do the things that are going to disturb my spirit.

MR DUKADA: Yes Sir I appreciate your answer but more what I need from you is you left the country because you wanted a better job. You found that within the ANC you were experiencing difficulties you came back. You decided to join the South African Police. Now the question I am asking you when you decided to join the police force at Newcastle you wanted to get a better job but nothing else. You had no interest in South African politics.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: You see I was not interested in politics. I don't want to lie to you.

MR DUKADA: So if the South African Police force was paying you an adequate salary then you would not bother yourself about what was the policy of the South African Police force then.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Can that question please be repeated?

MR DUKADA: If you were comfortable with the South African Police force receiving a salary you would not have interest at all about the politics of the country?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't follow the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukada perhaps you should simplify the question because it is a complexed question in any event. Yes please?

MR DUKADA: Yes thank you Mr Chairman. Now if you are receiving the salary which was satisfying you in the South African Police force then you were comfortable. It is all that you wanted. Is that correct?