Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed with the next applicant?

MR PRINSLOO: The next applicant Chairperson is Marius Etienne Visser.  His application appears on page 84 of the bundle which is placed before you.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you have any objection to taking the Oath Mr Visser?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I will take a confirmation.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you confirm that the evidence which you will deliver will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: (confirms)

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson, may I proceed?  Very well, Mr Visser you along with the other applicants in this matter were arrested and prosecuted in the Supreme Court of the Witwatersrand on charges of murder and various other charges of which you were found guilty.  Is that correct.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And in the Supreme Court you were given the death penalty initially?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And is it correct that at a later stage your case was referred back to the courts by the Appeal Court where you were given a prison sentence?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was your sentence?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Life.

MR PRINSLOO: You are applying for amnesty for the charges of murder and other charges of which you were found guilty as set out in the judgment of Justice Marais who found you guilty and sentenced you.  Is that correct?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You have studied your application which appears on page 84 and goes on until page 100 and appears in the record.  Do you confirm that?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Just another aspect Honourable Chairperson, that's on page 87 of the application, question 10.a should be amended to refer to:  See Annexure A, not B.  That would be on page 87.  I beg your pardon Chairperson I think I'm actually making an error.  Mr Visser in the family in which you grew up, was it conservative or liberal?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: It was of a conservative nature.

MR PRINSLOO: And which party did you support since 1990?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Me myself?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: The Volksfront as well as all the right wing organisations such as the AWB and the SACP.

MR PRINSLOO: What is your current age?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I am now 27.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive any military training?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: When did this occur?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: 1992 at Voortrekkerhoogte.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage, the ANC and SACP and other parties had already been unbanned?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Before the unbanning of these parties in 1990 or the talk thereof, what were your sentiments and the sentiments of your family?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: In the climate of the circumstances we could surmise that things were becoming tense regarding the situation with the ANC and SACP members.  One could see that they were going to come into power and we regarded this as a very tense climate.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you join the AWB?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct, in 1991.

MR PRINSLOO: For which reason did you join the AWB?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I believed in the ideology of the AWB and the objectives for which they stood, that would be for God the Volk and the Fatherland for an own language and a culture.

MR PRINSLOO: As time went by you've already testified that after the unbanning of the ANC a possibility existed that they would rule the country.  What was the sentiment and the viewpoint of the AWB with regard to that.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Their opinion was that they would never allow the ANC, SACP alliance and that class of organisation to simply take over the country.

MR PRINSLOO: At any stage during that period of time did you attend any meetings of the AWB?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I did.

MR PRINSLOO: And those meetings which you attended, who were the chief speakers in leadership function?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Eugene Terreblanche as well as Constand Viljoen attended some of the meetings.

MR PRINSLOO: And during those meetings, did you experience any influence over you?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct.  The meetings went hand in hand with sweeping up against the ANC and the SACP.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive the impression that the leadership of the AWB would allow the ANC and SACP to take over the government and the country?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any talk of war within that climate?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any arrangements made for any violence which would be committed and that people should prepare themselves for this?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.  People had to arm themselves as said by the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche.

MR PRINSLOO: In which area did you reside in 1993?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Area 9.

MR PRINSLOO: And who was the commanding general of that area?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: General Japie Oelofse.

MR PRINSLOO: The other applicants over here - Commandant Kloppers, who has testified shortly before you, did he occupy any position of authority in your area?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: He was the Chief Commandant of Area 9.

MR PRINSLOO: And Martin?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: He was the Commandant of Area 9.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you fall under his command?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what rank did you occupy within the AWB at that stage in 1993?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: At that stage I was an assistant Commandant.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you therefore fall within the command of Mr Martin and then others below you?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The other co-applicants, apart from those which I have mentioned, did they fall within your command or were they of equal rank, what were there positions?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Mr Van der Schyff occupied the same rank as I did and if I remember correctly, the other applicants occupied lower ranks that I did.

MR PRINSLOO: On the 12th of December 1993 you were called to a Roadhouse in the Randfontein area?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Who called you in?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Mr Badenhorst, one of the applicants, came to fetch me at my girlfriend's house and told me that Commandant Martins' wife had issued an order that we meet at the Roadhouse.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you go there in uniform?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: From there we went to Mr Badenhorst's house.  My uniform was at his house.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you armed?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I had no arm, I didn't possess any arm.

MR PRINSLOO: So you went to the Roadhouse unarmed?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And at the Roadhouse, it has been testified that a meeting took place.  Were you addressed by Mr Kloppers at this Roadhouse?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Chief Commandant Kloppers arrived last of all.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any weapons handed out to anybody at the Roadhouse?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Some of us didn't have weapons.  Myself, Gert Diedericks and Mr Van der Schyff didn't have weapons and upon that Mr Kloppers produced two pipe shotguns from his vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: And who did he gives these to?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: The pipe shotguns were given to myself and Mr Diedericks.

MR PRINSLOO: Did Mr Diedericks and yourself keep the pipe shotguns?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No, it was taken from Mr Diedericks.

MR PRINSLOO: For what reason?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: It wouldn't have come out but Mr Van der Schyff said that he would show Mr Diedericks how to shoot a kaffir.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any orders issued to you from anybody there at the Roadhouse?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: All of us were brought to attention when Mr Kloppers arrived and Commandant Martin saluted Chief Commandant Kloppers.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any orders given?