Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-09

ADV DE JAGER: This home of yours, were you the only one staying there?  Where was your family, didn't they stay there?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: The yard is big and there were four houses in our yard, there were three houses.  There were rondawels and flats and on the other side of the rondawels there was a house that was belonging to my sister and she was married and she was staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: And in your house, were you the only person staying there?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I was sleeping in a rondawel but I was staying with my family in a big house.

MR MAPOMA: Can you say to the Committee that the deceased as a person had any animosity with you?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I can say to the TRC authorities that between myself and the deceased there was animosity and that was caused by the fact that we soldiers killed people in Bisho and then he came to attack me.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, I'm referring to prior to the attack, prior to the attack which you claim ...[intervention]

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Prior to the attack, I don't want to lie, there was no animosity between us because I've already mentioned before that the deceased and myself would go and hunt together and we would go and fetch pineapples early in the morning, so there was a good relationship between us.

MR MAPOMA: When exactly did you observe this person that you saw during that night, the attacker?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I saw the attacker after he threw a petrol bomb that did not explode.  After it failed to explode he used matchsticks trying to light the lace curtain where he threw the petrol bomb.  Because there was wind outside the matches did not work and he then used a lot of matchsticks and then I observed or realised that it was the deceased who was doing this.

MR MAPOMA: And you were shocked at the time, is that so?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I was shocked to realise that it was the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, you were shocked by - when the petrol bomb was thrown through the window you were shocked, is it so?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct, I was shocked.

MR MAPOMA: And it is at that stage that you observed this person, isn't is to?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And this person was throwing some light as you say, behind the lace curtain?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And when you saw this person behind the lace curtain your observations told you that it is the deceased?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: First of all, I've already said that after he threw the petrol bomb he used the matches but he couldn't succeed the lace curtains because of the wind.  The lace curtain was moving upside down and it was then that I saw the deceased because he did not use the matchsticks once, he used them several times.  Maybe he used all the matchsticks in the matchbox.  That's when I realised that it was him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mapoma.
	What was this thing he was trying to light with a match?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: He was trying to light where the petrol bomb it and where it failed to explode.

ADV SANDI: Did the petrol bomb fall inside or outside the house?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: It broke the window and it was stopped by the headboard, the headboard of the bed.  It fell inside the house.

ADV SANDI: What was that petrol bomb like, what was it made of?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I think that it was made with petrol and the sticks and sand that was inside.

MR MAPOMA: So as I understand it it was at night and it was dark outside?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And are you saying you observed this person through this light which was being attempted?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I did see him even though it was dark because he was using the matchsticks a lot of times.

MR MAPOMA: So you're saying you saw him through the light of that ignition of the matchsticks, is that what you're saying?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I saw him while he was trying to use all these matchsticks.  He was using it as if he was going to smoke.  He was lighting as if he was going to smoke.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, the house did not burn?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: No, it didn't burn.

MR MAPOMA: You know Mr Marambana, I'm asking these questions because the parents of the deceased deny that their child was ever there at that time and that their child ever did the acts that you say he did.  What is your comment on that?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: When they are saying they deny that what I can say is that that is their view.  I won't criticise that because every parent has the right to defend his or her child but I am sure that I saw the deceased with my own eyes in that house.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mapoma, I notice that you refer to the deceased as a child, how old was he?

MR MAPOMA: Well Chairperson, ...[intervention]

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I am 32 years old now.  I think he would be 26 or 27 years old now, I'm not sure but he was younger than myself.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  I can just explain Sir, that the parents speak in their capacity as parents and their child remains a child, that's how I've put it.
	And in fact the deceased himself denied that he ever attacked your place, when you confronted him?  Do you remember that you said so?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, I do remember that because I do agree with you that he denied that.  First of all it is not easy to admit what you did but when you see that you can be in trouble for what you did you then admit.  It is the truth that the deceased said he did not do this but he then agreed that yes, he did that and he was asking for forgiveness for what he did.

MR MAPOMA: When did he agree now?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: He agreed when I was asking him.  After we went out of the house of his grandmother he agreed.  We were outside the yard when he agreed.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not say that in your evidence in chief, why do you say that only now?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I'm sure about what I am saying.  Even in the statement that I made before to the TRC I did mention that the deceased at first he denied this but  after I asked him several times he then admitted that yes, he did this.  I remember this because the investigator who came to me at the Piet Retief Prison asked me whether the deceased admitted whether he was the one who attacked and then I said: "Yes".  Then he asked me whether I was threatening him when he admitted that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell your representative that, that he admitted to having thrown the petrol bomb etc?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I can say that yes, I told her that the deceased admitted that.

ADV DE JAGER: I've read it somewhere, it's somewhere in the papers.

ADV SANDI: I don't recall having heard such evidence in the course of the applicant's evidence in chief, that the ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, I don't think he said it but I've read somewhere that before he killed him he admitted and he asked forgiveness.

ADV SANDI: Page 12, he says there at the eighth line from the top
"He denied, and I told him that it's his turn now to die.  I shot him and he died instantly."

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, Mr Mapoma, are there any more questions you have?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, have you got any re-examination?

MS COLLETT: Nothing further, no.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLET

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you're excused.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I would like to say something to the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can.