Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zuma, the question you got confused about was the fourth question asked by your own attorney, it was not a lot of questions, it was your own attorney leading your evidence and right at the beginning of your evidence you said that you were attacked, you knew most of them, they said - called out -Vusi we are coming and that you them ran down the hill.  We're asking about that, not what you said after lot's of questioning but what you told your - your own attorney led you on this.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I said it like that however now I find myself in a confused state.  I knew the people we were fighting against.  Ntolo was from Ndaleni, that's why I'm saying now that I saw him at the Supreme Court, that he was there when we attacked them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I presume that it was not too dark when an attack was launched in your stronghold and if ...(intervention)

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes it was in the dark, it was somewhere around 4 or 3 in the afternoon, I didn't look at the  time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you are now saying - you are now changing your evidence to say you didn't recognise any of the persons who launched an attack against you on the 23rd of June.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I saw them coming to attack us however I didn't recognise them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And in your evidence you actually painted quite a beautiful picture by saying you were in a strategic place, you were higher up and you could see what was going on from down there, you could vividly see the people who were coming up to attack you.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you obviously are saying you couldn't see anything and that piece of evidence we should disregard because it wasn't correct?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: People whom I saw when they started attacking us starting from 1991, February, I used to see these people but those who attacked us on the 23rd of June, I didn't ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: He's saying he didn't see them - I don't know what he means - he didn't recognise or see them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I presume you must have consulted with your lawyer?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I just get confused - I don't know, I don't know what's happening.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Well Mr Zuma, I would say if you're having some problems you must have a glass of water, you must relax because whatever you are saying we are taking down.  It is an important part of your application, it is the application and it is an important requirement of your application for amnesty not to ...(inaudible) your evidence but to tell us exactly what happened.
	And no one is putting any pressure on you, no one is asking any questions, this is the evidence you gave as Judge Wilson has stated.  This is the evidence you gave when you were being led by your own attorney.  If you're not going to be comfortable with the leading of questions by your own attorney, I don't know how you can be made more comfortable than that.  I would say please try and relax and think about what you want us to take as your evidence.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I will come back to that point.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Ma'am.  In your evidence you testified that you were targeting ANC young men, do you remember that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now why did you kill three young boys?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: It wasn't clear because it was at night.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, but it comes from - it is your evidence, you said you saw three young boys and these three young boys were killed.  The word boys comes from you and you also gave evidence that your target was actually young men so it means if you could differentiate between boys and men you saw these people.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: When I referred to a young child, I'm referring to anyone who is below ten years of age.  Above that I would say it's a grown up youth and since it was at night it was also difficult to distinguish between an adult and a child.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What you told us or told this Committee when you said you saw three young boys and you killed the three young boys, is not true?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I didn't say we kill young children, we found three of them in a rondawel, there were three.  We didn't, I didn't try to find out whether they were grown up or still young, we stabbed them and I went out and peeped through the window while the others were still stabbing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let us be careful Mr Zuma, you say in that house you found three young children, is that your evidence?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: If I remember well I didn't say three young children, I said three people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Three young children.  You are at liberty to change, are you changing?  You are liberty to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, were any young boys killed?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the baby of three.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, what count?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If my young ...(inaudible) below the age of twenty one.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh well that I wouldn't call young boys, I would call those youths, that's not a young boy.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you deny that you said you found three young children?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would like to correct this.  I didn't say children, I couldn't kill young children even young boys, I said three people in the house which was a rondawel.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you armed on this day, the launching of the attack?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I was armed with three, two spears and two ...(inaudible).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Two spears and two what?

INTERPRETER: ...(inaudible)

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Those were knopkierries with some ...(inaudible) on top of them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Zuma, in the light of your more recent version that you did not identify any of the attackers, can you explain to us why you decided to attack these particular people that victim to you and your group on the 23rd of June 1991.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: May you please repeat the question for me?

ADV POTGIETER: Accepting your version that you did not identify any of the attackers, for what reason did you decide to attack these particular
people who fell victim to you and your group on the 23rd of June 1991?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: It was because they shot at us, at our homes and they terrorized us.  They terrorized us and victimized us and I would say this is the reason why I got involved in attacking them as a way paying revenge because they shot ...(inaudible).  That's the reason why I joined in the attack.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you suggesting that you attacked these particular people because you were taking revenge for things that they have done prior to the 23rd of June 1991?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: So your revenge had nothing to do with what happened in your area earlier on that  particular day?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't understand this question now, may you please repeat the question, I don't hear it very well.

ADV POTGIETER: In other words what you're saying is that your attack, this revenge attack that you had launched had nothing to do with the incident that happened in your area earlier on that particular day of the 23rd of June?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would say I was now angry with that situation because so many other people were killed and we couldn't sleep well at night.  They used to attack us in the evening, in the morning, at anytime so I decided that I should go and attack them because there was nothing that I was going to do as there was a fight, they were fighting war.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, but now on the 23rd during this attack that you referred to in our own area, we believe from the testimony that was presented here that one person was injured, is that correct?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct, one person got injured.