Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do not remember any meetings that were held with the police except for the meetings that pertained to marches at the area of Mandeni, that was around 1991 to 1992.  Those are the marches that I remember as having taken place.

MR NEL: Very well, Mr Mthembu, I accept that you might not have been present at these meetings.  If I may turn to the night or the morning of the 1st of September 1992 or the 2nd.  My instructions are that the police had information that there were certain weapons at the house where this incident took place, namely Number 1658.  Now this is the house that was well-known to Sergeant Botes and as I've already stated he was well-known to Mr Vincent Shandu.  Now it has been your evidence that the house on that particular day was attacked by police, am I correct?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, the house was attacked.

MR NEL: And that had taken place - the attack that was launched on the house had taken place without any prior warning to yourself or the occupants in the house?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, we were not informed about the possibility of Vincent being attacked.

MR NEL: Now I would like to point out to you the improbability of what you are saying because evidence will be led that Sergeant Botes obtained a search warrant from a Magistrate in Umtumzini on certain information and on a statement which he'd taken from a registered informer, and that they were in possession of a valid search warrant to search the house that you were occupying.  It is that regard that I cannot understand that with a search warrant they would attack the house that you were occupying, can you comment on that?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I am saying I knew nothing, we knew nothing because nobody was expecting the police to arrive on that evening.

MR NEL: What I'm trying to put forward to you, Mr Mthembu is, do you see that it would most probably be highly unlikely for policemen in a number - they were quite a number of policemen on that night with a search warrant issued by a Magistrate, to go against such a search warrant and to attack the house that they were looking, the house that supposedly had firearms in it.  Do you see my way of reasoning?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do not remember seeing any warrant of search.  Yes, I do understand what you are saying but I don't recall seeing any such warrant.

MR NEL: My instructions are, Mr Mthembu, that the victims who I am representing here, Sergeant van Schalkwyk and Mr Botes were standing on either side of the front door of this home and had knocked and announced their presence quite loudly for anybody inside to open the door.  You do not know whether that happened, you say that did not happen?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: No, such a thing did not happen.

MR NEL: And eventually when there was no response from inside Sergeant van Schalkwyk prepared himself to open the door with force and he was then shot from inside the house.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Is that a question?

MR NEL: You may reply to the statement that I'm putting to you, Mr Mthembu.  I'm saying that it did not happen, on my instructions, as you stated previously, that I'm saying that the police announced their presence, had no response, prepared to enter the house by force and before they could do so somebody from within, and from your evidence you shot Mr van Schalkwyk.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do not remember any incidents or instance where the door was forcefully shot(?), I only remember a gunshot being fired.  I do not remember.  The only thing that I heard was the gunfire which actually woke me up.

MR NEL: No, you might have misunderstood me, I did not say that they forced the door open.  They were preparing to do so but before they could do that they were fired upon from within the house and in that fire Mr van Schalkwyk was injured in the head.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I never heard of that.  I don't even know that he was preparing to open the door forcefully.  I only heard gunshots and that woke me up.

MR NEL: And you thought you were under attack?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I thought that we were now under attack.

MR NEL: Were you the only person assigned to protect Mr Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: It was myself, only myself.

MR NEL: How did it happen that all the occupants of the house then exited the house and came out into the open?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: After the police had fired shots into the house they stopped shooting and they then instructed that the door to the house should be opened, that is when Mr Shandu opened the door.

MR NEL: How did it happen that you pointed out a firearm inside the house?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That was at the time when I woke up from my sleep, resulting from the gunfire.  When I woke up it is clear that the people were shooting into the house from outside, shooting through the windows.  All the windows were shot through

MR NEL: Maybe you didn't get the question properly.  I said, how did it happen that everybody came out of the house and you then pointed, or did you point out a firearm inside the house?  Or shall I say, what happened to the firearm that you shot with?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do not quite understand your question.

MR NEL: After all the gunfire had stopped, both yours and the retaliation from the police, the gunfire had now ceased, what happened to the firearm that you had used to shoot from within the house?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The gun that I used to fire was inside the house.  I threw it to the kitchen.  After that the door opened and we all went out, starting with Vincent and I followed.  They then took me back into the house and insisted that I produce the firearm.

MR NEL: Did they not rather ask who was the person who was firing from within?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do not remember.

MR NEL: Mr Mthembu, you said that the police insisted that you produced the firearm that was shot with, how did they know you were the person that was shooting?   I'm suggesting to you that the police asked from your group who had the firearm and who was shooting, did it not happen that way?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: They came and said that we should produce the firearms, open the door and after the door was opened the owner of the house was made to lie down and another person also came out and he was too made to lie down and I became the third person to come out and I too was made to lie down, but shortly thereafter they took me back to the house and they said I should show them the firearm.
	After that they pushed me and insisted that I personally take the gun and give it to them.  I didn't want to do as they told me, instead I kicked or pushed the gun with my feet towards them.

MR NEL: Are you saying that it was a coincidence that they picked on you to produce the firearm?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I cannot say why they chose that it be myself who showed them the firearm, I really cannot say.

MR NEL: Mr Mthembu, my instructions are and it will also be testified to the fact that some of the members had asked you people who was the one that was using a firearm and you volunteered and you then pointed out the firearm that you used, or are you maintaining that that is not the way that it happened?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: No, they did not ask who was using the firearm, instead when I got out of the house they asked me my name, I gave them my name, they made me lie down and after that they took me back into the house where they insisted I shown them the firearm.