Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

DILIZA MTHEMBU: Firstly, I don't have any problem with the membership of the organisation as such.  I don't have any problem with my colleagues, but I have a problem with the leadership of the ANC.
 No one came to me, even after killing my father, no one came to me and say we have done this because of this and this reason.  Up to today, I have tried my best and I don't know who must I reconcile with.   I don't know who must I reconcile with because no one has come out and say we have done this and this and this.
 And this is a very big worry for me and my family today, no one is here.  They are living under I think, traumatic stress.
 My mother doesn't want to hear anything, because my father was killed in front of her while I was not there, I was in exile.  I tried to talk to them, I went for counselling myself.  I have done everything for myself, I tried to for my family, but things have changed and myself, I don't want to - I want to be honest with you, I am very much bitter, I have got hatred, I don't have any hope.
 I am helpless.  That is how I feel.  For the young guys who are working in Quatro, I don't have any grudge, because maybe myself, if I was in those, in their boots, I would do the same because they were young.  You know sometimes using very, very young people to run an establishment of such, of such magnitude, it is very dangerous because you say this is, you call them by name, (indistinct) enemy agents and there is no proof.
 So I don't have any grudge, but maybe they will think because this is the first time, but what I wanted to mention is that I am a victim of Commissions myself.  I went to the Stewart Commission, no results.  I went to the Squeea Commission, no results.  I have gone to the Douglas Commission, no results.
 I have gone to the (indistinct) Commission, no results and again I am here at the TRC - no results?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, one does understand and respect your feelings Mr Mthembu, I think they are genuine.  And unless somebody comes forward and open up with you, you can't forgive.  You can't reconcile unless somebody comes forward and opens up with you.
 I am hoping that when you go to the next Commission, you are not going to count us there as no results.

DILIZA MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DLAMINI: Can I hand you over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair.  Diliza, as you've said you have gone to all these Commissions and I think today a lot of what you say is a matter of public record.  Those Commissions have been published and the ANC have come to us on two occasions and we relied on exactly those Commissions to literally interrogate them at very great length.
 So we are very grateful for people like you who have been very courageous especially in the context of South African politics, which will swing from one extreme to the other extreme, today you are a hero, tomorrow you are an enemy.
 And a lot of people in the course of our liberation struggle have died, either at the hands of the enemy as perceived by those who kill them and or at the hands of the State which perceived them as enemies.  People who testified before you, escaped the death sentence by the scrape of their teeth.
 Those are people who today you have been protesting their innocence, they nearly died.  And the executioner there would have been the State.   And it was after an elaborate process of trial, but the one remarkable thing about what happened in Angola was that a number of your colleagues were tried and executed without even as much as a resemblance of a trial.
 And I think it stands to the credit of the ANC leadership that they were able to admit this publicly when they came to us.  It does not absolve them, but it stands to their credit.
 But it pains us and our task is to make sure that things like that never happen again.  Of course sometimes it becomes a cliche to say these things because there was (indistinct) and after (indistinct) you never thought there would be Ruwanda.
 You never thought there would be Bosnia, you certainly never thought there would be Quatro.  But we can only hope and we can only try and for us in the Commission it becomes a matter of great concern that after all this public acknowledgements by the leadership of the ANC and everybody else, there are still people like you who are bitter.
 People who say I have not had an opportunity to be given the chance to say this is how I feel about the killing of my father, right or wrong.  In the Commission, unfortunately we are not able to say whether your father did what they said he did.
 And then my question would relate to people who are in the army.  You are in the South African National Defence Force and there are people there, Andrew Masondo, Joe Modise and people who in some way or another, participated in trying to get to the bottom of what was happening in Angola in those camps.
 What is the nature of your relationship for instance, quite apart from the fact that you are in the lower ranks and Andrew Masondo is in the higher ranks, is there an opportunity within the army where you are able to debate what happened in Angola?  And is there a way other than maybe the Commission, in the army, are the structures there to try and deal with the realities that was Angola, right or wrong so that you can clearly have it behind you?  Because it gives me a great deal of concern that you are in the same institution and you have a history of perpetrator/victim and you just go on as if nothing has happened?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: I would say in the SANDF there is no such a state or platform.  We are in the army together but we don't have any chance even to see the very same leadership you are asking me about.
 It is remote for me, very, very remote.  In fact there it is more difficult that you can, in a position to meet those people, unless maybe somewhere, or maybe at a function where you happen to find yourself amongst the people in that function, it is remote.
 Really, I want to be honest there it is remote.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, you said you have been to Commissions, no result.  What sort of result would you expect from you having come to this Commission?  What would you like to see happening?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: As I said I am hopeless, I am helpless.  I don't have any confidence to be honest, that something can be done maybe to help me or I have helped myself, I have gone to the counselling and the person who did the counselling, he told me, just told me that if you feel like crying, you just have to cry until this thing is out.
 If you feel like speaking, you have to speak it out until everything is out.  Then maybe you will feel better.  That is how I feel now.  Not to say that I came here maybe to send people to jail or what, I can't forgive but for me, it is difficult because I don't know anyone to forgive.
 That is what is happening in that family, we don't know whom to forgive, we don't know whom are we going to reconcile with.   As the Committee member said, Mr Mdu Dlamini, that maybe if someone can come and sit down with our family and then try to iron out some of the things, maybe we can forgive.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair.