Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I am sure it is after a week, after the incident.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, you were saying three or four months later?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Three or four months later then there was this rumour from the security department staff that Frans Oosthuisen went to Pretoria, head office, and reported the incident of Samuel Kanaga.  And at the same time we were then called by, I received the message on my radio, that Mr Gerber, because by that time he was not any longer working for Fidelity Guards, that he wanted to meet me, me and Julius at a certain spot in Hillbrow.  We did that the following morning, met him there, they further told us what happened, what Frans Oosthuisen has done. I mean, that he reported the matter to the SAP.  Then the Police come and fetch us, we must just stick to our statement, what we have just told Brig Van Wyk, which means we have got to lie again.  And the following morning, eight o'clock, the cops then came, with Murder and Robbery, we then, all of us, I mean me and Julius picked up and there was a - they wanted to know what happened, and we then decided to tell the truth, because I have decided it was the right time for me to tell the truth, not to say, because I didn't have any other option, for me it was the right time to tell the truth now.

UNKNOWN: You told the truth and even gave a statement to the police?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mkoana, evidence was led that you were sent to Port Elizabeth, to quote "to infiltrate the Mala gang".

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct, that was part and parcel of my, I mean, what I was supposed to do. In other words, I was working for Fidelity Guards, and then after we started having maybe a lot of robberies, then sometimes we have the problem with also the informers, the other Mr Gerber and Van Eyck have just said yesterday.  Then we then decided that we have got to maybe, to use other methods.  In other words, to get information from the guys in the street.  So that's when they introduced this thing that we go, me and Julius we go to work totally undercover; people must never know we are working for Fidelity Guards, which means we have got to move around maybe with robbers, whoever, in the location, in order to get maybe the information.   And well, I was sent to Port Elizabeth, in order to get that information.

UNKNOWN: Now the type of information you were sent to cover in Port Elizabeth, what was it?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: In fact, I was supposed to infiltrate the gang t make sure that I find out where they stays, how do they operate and all those things, they were giving the police a tough time, the police could not catch them.  They were using different addresses to stay.

UNKNOWN: What was the operation of this gang, were they operating in robberies or were they also involved in political activities?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, they were not involved in political activities, not at all, because I went there to Port Elizabeth and I am sure I stayed there plus/minus a month.  So during my time I was staying there, those - because of the information we have received, also from the informers, they were never involved in political issues.  What they were doing, anywhere they were expert, they were having black belts and specialised with karate.  That's the sort of their sport.

HASSAN MALL: I didn't hear that?  What was their ...?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: They were specialising in karate. That was part of their sport.

HASSAN MALL: In karate?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: In karate, most of them.

HASSAN MALL: They were karate guys?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Karate.  And they were only specialising in robbing security guards, in the Port Elizabeth area up to King William's Town and East London.

UNKNOWN: So you were to infiltrate the mechanism in order to stop if possible, their robberies?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly.

UNKNOWN: And Fidelity Guards only?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly.  At the end of the day, since part of the money they were robbing either way, they were just using it to buy different houses.  So that if maybe should the police go to that other address, if the police has got the information that they are staying by that address, they have got another house to stay.

UNKNOWN: Right. Mr Mkoana, during your investigation in Port Elizabeth, did you in any way link the operations of the Mala Gang to any political organisation?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not at all.

UNKNOWN: And there was further evidence that when you left for Port Elizabeth you had with you some explosives and AK-47s to go and give to the gang?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not exactly, because I could not even identify what an AK-47 looks like.  Even now, I don't know how, I never touched an AK-47 with my hand.  So with the explosives, I have now been trained in explosives (indistinct), but as I say I have never, I have been an ex-policeman, I know the R1 and other weapons, but I have never touched an AK-47 or hand-grenade with my hands.  So I deny that allegation.

UNKNOWN: There was further evidence led yesterday, that you also, you were further mandated to do the same job in and around Soweto.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I deny that allegation. How can I - because I heard that allegation to say that I even went one day with the, I am sure, with Van Eyck to Soweto to buy those AK-47s.  How can I do that if I knew I was working undercover? I mean, people in the street, they were not supposed to know that I am working for Fidelity Guards. I was totally undercover.  So how can I do that?  It means that I will be blowing the whole cover of myself.  So I deny that allegation.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Mr Mkoana, it is already on record that you are a member of, security with Fidelity Guards, together with the two applicants and Julius and the deceased.  Would I say that whatever would be done by Gerber, Van Eyck and Oosthuisen, you also would know, because they were your colleagues?  Would that be correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Before that I wouldn't know because they were working at a different, totally different department, because I was transferred. I made an application from First Post, which was before, it was before (indistinct). I made an application to be transferred to (indistinct) support unit, which is the support for the security guard vehicle, so that they must not be robbed.  So after that, after Mr Van Wyk started working for Fidelity Guards, he then asked me if I am not interested in working for the security department.  You know, I had to do specially for that operation. So I wouldn't know if there was maybe any other secret activities or maybe whatever activities the security department was doing, but maybe for any other staff, when that, I know, because I used to mix with them.

UNKNOWN: Ja, but now during your working with them in the security department, did you ever become aware of any connection between yourself, by yourself, I am referring to Fidelity Guards, and the security forces of the country.  Was there any such connection?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Well, we did at one stage as far as I can remember, had a special duties. I don't know what they call that special duties, you see, we worked on one Friday or maybe it was on Saturday, worked the whole night together with the SAP in Hillbrow and the Johannesburg Traffic Department.  But as I remember, there was one that relationship between the security guards and the SAP, but not any other secret, I mean, connection or maybe operation.

UNKNOWN: On what was this connection based?  What was the purpose of all these forces, what were you fighting against?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: They say that it was the prevention of crime.

UNKNOWN: Prevention of crime?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly.

UNKNOWN: I see.  You testified that you were in the Police Force before you joined Fidelity Guards.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: For how long were you in the Police Force?