Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

CHAIRPERSON: But did he testify that he killed this man because all he said is that he stabbed him and he fell down.

MR BERGER: Let me rephrase it then, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should.  All that the witness says is that "I stabbed man and the man fell on his face."

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you left this man lying on his face because you expected that your comrades would finish the job that you had started, in other words, your comrades would ensure that the man was dead?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Would you please listen very carefully, sir, I have explained here that I stabbed this person and he fell face down.  I don't know whether he died or not.  You should not tell me that I know what happened and obviously he died.  I did not say that.

MR BERGER: Did you expect that this man would die after you had stabbed him and he had fallen on his face?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not expect that.

MR BERGER: Did you expect that your comrades would finish this man off after you had stabbed him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Well, Mr Mthembu, I have a problem, why did you not make sure that this man was dead because after all, he might have been a member of a self defence unit?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: People are not the same and their lucks are equally not the same.  If something happens to someone else, it should not be expected that the same thing should happen to the next person.  If I stab a person now and he happens to die, the person is dead and this does not necessarily mean that the next person that I will stab will equally die.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, let me put my question again.  You went to Boipatong to kill members of the self defence unit, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: You didn't go to Boipatong to kill anybody else but members of the STU?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think yes, some people who were not necessarily members of the STU died.

MR BERGER: We know that, Mr Mthembu, but what I'm asking you about - are your intentions when you went to Boipatong, when you went to Boipatong you say you went there to kill members of the self defence unit, you did not go there to kill anyone who was not a member of a self defence unit, you and your fellow attackers, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Our aim was exactly as you put it, we were fighting the self defence unit members in the township and the death of other people, innocent people, was as a result of our fight against the STU in the township.

MR BERGER: Now here was a man running away from you, a middle aged man, in the street who you thought might be a member of a self defence unit, so you stabbed him for that reason, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I stabbed him for that reason.

MR BERGER: Now you didn't know whether he had died or whether he was going to die as a result of that stab wound and you didn't know whether any of your fellow attackers were going to kill him, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: So my question to you is, if your goal was to kill members or suspected members of self defence units, why did you only stab this man once, why did you not finish him off?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: You should understand that we went to Boipatong because we went their out of our own violation to attack.  If an instruction for example comes that people should go and attack, it is an instruction and people had to choose whether to go there or not.  You should understand that, sir, that if I went there out of my own violation to go and kill STU members, it is out of my own will.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer to the question?  What counsel has put to you is that you told us that the purpose of going to Boipatong was to kill the STU's.  What counsel wants to find out is why did you just stab this person once and not make sure that he was dead?  Do you understand the question?  Okay?  Would you just answer the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Let me say, thinking that some of my members would either hit him with a kierrie or something, I don't know whether he survived thereafter or not.

CHAIRPERSON: The question what you're being asked is, you stabbed this man once but counsel wants to find out if you had gone there with the intention to kill the STU, the person that you stabbed, you believe he was a member of the STU and why did you only stab him once, why didn't you make sure that he was dead?  Do you understand the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please answer the question.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explained, I am saying here I did not make sure that the person is dead because I knew that there were people in my company and I therefore would not take up the entire responsibility to myself knowing that there were other people.

MR BERGER: And you knew that the people in your company would ultimately kill this man, is that what you're saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not saying that they would finish him off but I am saying that if they happened to come across him, they would probably kill him or he may survive, escape and flee.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I don't know why you don't want to answer my question, but we'll move on.
	Let's get to the next person that you - well, I'm sorry
before we get to the next person that you stabbed, can you tell the Committee where you stabbed this first man, which street was it in?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was near Umsimvuvu Street.

MR BERGER: Was it in Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It is actually nearer to Umsimvuvu Street, not in the street itself.

MR BERGER: Well could you give us the name please of the street in which you stabbed this man?  You told the Committee earlier that you stabbed this man in the street.  Now I want to know the name of that street in which you stabbed him.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know the name of the street because I was just giving an example here, trying to explain this.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Mthembu, I'm not asking for examples, why did you mention Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I mentioned it because that's where we approached from.

MR BERGER: Yes, know if you know Umsimvuvu Street, take yourself back to that night, go down Umsimvuvu Street and tell me which street you then turned into where you found this man?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I wouldn't know which street it was because it was at night.  As I mentioned Umsimvuvu I think it's also because you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Does anything turn on this street where this first person was stabbed?

MR BERGER: Indeed Chairperson it does because we can then -well I can reveal this much - we can then correlate what this witness says against known facts to see whether or not he is telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you had those facts it may save time to put those facts to the witness and see whether he admits them or disputes them because it would seem to me that from what he is saying, you know, he is unable to tell from what street this is.  If you can as far as possible, I think it will save time.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I will come to that, I just want to test this witness first.
	Mr Mthembu, did your attacking party enter the township from Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, as I have explained, we entered at Umsimvuvu and because there were many of us, we did enter from Umsimvuvu and proceeded from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you indicate how many - apart from that entrance through Umsimvuvu Street, is there another entrance to the township?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes there is.  I was just explaining about Umsimvuvu because if you compare the direction from which we came into Boipatong.

MR BERGER: No houses in Umsimvuvu Street were attacked, Mr Mthembu, do you dispute that?