Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That Mr Chair as we were arrested also it was - you can come from there at the end of the day how we were arrested also, from the rest of our cases.

CHAIRPERSON: No I don't know how you were arrested?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: One of my co-accused he was arrested in Newlands police station.  At the end he spilt the whole beans.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it your intention to go out publicly and say "we have done it in the name of the ANC because the people are security policemen"?  Was it your intention to do that?  If it was your intention to do that, what is it that you did then in order to do precisely that, publicising the fact the killing was politically related?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair as I said I don't think now anyone will go sommer out public.  He will go out public but at the end of the day he will still be underground because he don't want them to be involved in a case, at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: You know you are giving - you are contrasting two things.  It's possible for someone to go public but at the end of the day you still have to do something underground.  I do not understand that aspect of your evidence.  What measures did you take, if you did take any measures, to ensure that your stated objective of sending a clear message to the security branch that the killing had been committed by you in your capacity as an ANC member to stop the harassment, the intimidation and the torture that they were causing to the members of your community.  What measures did you take to  ensure that your stated objective was made aware or brought to the security branch?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: The answer to the question, the way they were tortured, the way they were abducted and the way they were shot, Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How would that be different from anyone committing a criminal act?  How would the way they were tortured and indeed they were severely tortured, the killing was gruesome.  Now how would that gruesome killing, the terrible torture they were subjected to be different from an act that would be committed by a criminal?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day Mrs Chair, the reason why they were so severely injured was because we were trying to get information out of them.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not responding to my question.  How would the way they were tortured and how would the way one of them was ultimately killed be different from a torture or killing by an ordinary criminal?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Then Mrs Chair we can go back that time, it was like a war that time, you couldn't resist anything, you just had to carry out the order you was given, it was war that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to respond to my question or are you not able to respond to my question?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I think I'm not able to respond to that question Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I will note that you are unable to respond to my question again.  You may proceed Mr Leopeng.

MR LEOPENG: One other question subject to the Committee's approval, I'm not sure if this question has been questioned before.  Mr Plaatjies, if I understand you correctly you say the reason, the main reason why you abducted the two Indian policemen, alleged policemen, and subsequently killed one, is that they were investigating you for gun running or that they were police officials belonging to the security branch at Westbury?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.  It was involved with the police, security police and running ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Leopeng, I don't understand the question, you just put to Mr Plaatjies.  There is no evidence that these people were investigating him for gun running.  He has not testified to that kind of evidence, has he?  I am corrected that he has, I have not made any notes.

MR LEOPENG: Madame Chair, the evidence which was before is that he was informed by Ashley Bashing that there are two Indian police officials who were interested in him for the gun running, that was the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR LEOPENG: So the question is was that the main reason why he abducted them acting on the information of Mr Bashing and subsequently killed one of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm sorry about that.

MR LAX: Mr Leopeng, it's not over yet.  There's no evidence to say these policemen came from Westbury and they were based at Westbury.  That's what you're putting to him.  They may be security policemen, we don't know where they were from at this stage so just be careful how you put your question.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Leopeng, before you proceed, may I just enquire from the applicant.  Mr Plaatjies, are you Afrikaans or English speaking?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I'm Afrikaans Mrs Bosman.

ADV BOSMAN: Would you follow the questions better if they were translated to you into Afrikaans?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said I'll try my best in English, Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Plaatjies, it is your right to speak in a language that you are comfortable in, that you will be able to express yourself better so if you want to speak in Afrikaans we have translators who will be able to translate whatever you say into different languages, in English, in Zulu, in Sotho.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I think I'm comfortable in English, Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: If you feel so then you may proceed to give your evidence in English.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Thanks Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Leopeng, you may rephrase your question?

MR LEOPENG: Mr Plaatjies, are you saying that the reason, main reason why you abducted and subsequently killed one of the alleged two Indian police officials is that you had been informed by Bashing that they were investigating you for the gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: The information I got from Ashley Bashing was just only they were investigating us, investigating me, he then told me about gun running so it's obvious it could be the gun running, it could be political activities.

MR LEOPENG: But in your evidence in chief you told this Committee that the reason why they were investigating you is that of your activities in gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: It's on record?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes it's possible they could be investigating me of gun running and my activities I was involved at the end of the day.

MR LEOPENG: Is there any other thing that you wish to tell this  Committee on your activities and an explanation of your acts committed on victims you were ordered?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: On that day after we abducted, we tortured, we abducting them, we tortured them, we shot them, we went to their car, we burnt it out.

MR LEOPENG: What was the reason to burn out their car?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Then we will put a reason to burn out a car it was to leave no evidence behind.

MR LAX: To leave no evidence behind?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: So ultimately did you achieve your political motive in killing one of the two Indian policemen who were shot?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I could say like that, I did achieve my political points.

CHAIRPERSON: What political objective Mr Leopeng are you referring to?

MR LEOPENG: That they were harassed, tortured by the security forces at Westbury.

MR LAX: That's not an objective, that is a context.  What was his objective, that's what the Chair is asking?

MR LEOPENG: May I put the question to the applicant, what was their political motive that he wanted to achieve?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to tell you what questions to put, I just did not understand what you meant by the political objective because we have not been given any particulars about the political objectives that Mr Plaatjies sought to achieve specifically by committing the offences for which he is seeking amnesty.

MR LEOPENG: I wish to put the question to the applicant.
	What political motive did you want to achieve in ...[intervention]