Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No.
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RUSSELL ALLY: No, okay and then just lastly a name that has come up often in these statements also is of a Mr and a Mrs Alphane or Alphane.  Do you know that name, that they were people who were either escorting these youth or seen around these youth?  A Mr and Mrs Alphane.  Do you know, does that name mean anything to you, those names?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes, I can say that Mrs Alphane, I will not lie, I never saw her, neither did I see Mr Alphane, but I saw their child

RUSSELL ALLY: And who were these people, Alphane.  Do you know anything about them?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: In which sense?

RUSSELL ALLY: Anything about them.  Their background.  I mean how do they fit into the picture?  What was there part in all of this?  Were they driving one of the cars or were they people who were involved in ...

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I can say that Alphane provided the transport to help the people to get out of the country.

RUSSELL ALLY: Okay, thanks Victor, I will stop there.  Thank you very much.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any other questions.  Thomas.  Tom.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you give us the full names of Solly?  You have not given us his surname.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I have a problem with the surnames, but without lying I would say that it was, no, I just cannot get to the surname now, but the name is Solly.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is it possible that you get us the surname?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: How long had you been with this group that you PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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went to KwaNdebele with from Mamelodi?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: A long time, a very long time.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you were doing the same thing, all of you, as a group?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And was none of them ever detained?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: You mean were we ever detained by the police?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When the police detained you did they not want to know the names of those who died?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, they did not want to know.  They just hit us.  The Warrant Office came and we were being beaten for 24 hours and we bled and bled and our wounds were left as they were and they beat us and released us after two days.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And they did not suspect that you could have been with that group that died?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, they never.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you on your own, you could not have reported to this police about the deaths of your Comrade?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I could do that, but I could see that there was nothing I could do about it.  I did not have the strength to do anything because we were being oppressed in such a way that if we could see that they needed evidence, we needed to prove what we were saying.  We needed to get at least one person and bring that person forward, but, I mean, where am I going to get such a person to come forward and give evidence.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you not fear that if they detained you once, twice, thrice for a short period of time like they did, your Comrades would suspect you and if so what would
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you do to counter that suspicion?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: You see, I had the strength, because I had influence because even when I spoke and when I was detained and I was, I came back you could see on my body that I was detained and I could show the Comrades that, look, I was detained and they could see that I was from detention.  It is not to say that I came back without any harm.  I would come back walking a bit crooked and things like, with, showing that I had been assaulted.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.  No further questions.

MR MALAN: I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand Malan.

MR MALAN: Mr Sithole, I just want to get to this question of suspicion.  You say in your written statement to us that you were also under suspicion by some of your friends.  That you, or, and especially by the parents and some of the people in Mamelodi that you have sold their children out in KwaNdebele.  Are there still such suspicions?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I suspected people wanting to know why did this one survive and the others have died and parents would just suspect because they were not present.  Wanting to know why did these ones have to die and those ones survive.

MR MALAN: In your written statement you also say that you still suspect your Comrade, Solly, and you also suspect Mr Shabangu.  You still suspect them too?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And then that night, Dr Ally referred to that where you say you slept at your girlfriend's house.  How did that happen?  Was that your girlfriend of a long time?  Do you know the area or was it a girl that you met there?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: You know the, in the camaraderie, you would go
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around drinking and chanting together and enjoying yourselves together.

MR MALAN: Okay.  So it is not your girlfriend, it was a girlfriend.  No, that is fine.  I am not passing moral judgement on you, really not.  Then the last thing is because this really leads to the confusion.  In your written statement which, was given under oath, in paragraph six, can you read, did you read this statement again when it was taken from you?  Sorry, if I may repeat the question.  Did you read the statement before you signed it?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I do not understand what you mean.  Do you mean that did I read the paper before?

MR MALAN: You gave us a written statement which one of our statement takers, which a statement taker took off you.  Did you read it before you signed it?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes, I read it.

MR MALAN: In paragraph six you say that as a result of the attack, the following morning a black woman by the name of Johannah, which you said to Dr Ally was aunty Johannah, who was also employed at Mr Shabangu's supermarket, told ten of us that she is offering us accommodation at her place.  Just tell us how did you get to aunty Johannah?  I mean, the impression that we had was that she ...

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I just want to interject there.  You see I said that we went to Sis Johannah's house so the person that wrote down the statement made a mistake by saying that, by giving the impression that she worked at the store.

MR MALAN: Okay.  So you did not read the statement after it was taken down by that person?  Okay, it is not all that important, but it was very confusing to us.  I have no further questions.  Thank you.
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CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Mr Sithole, I do not want to delay you.  You have had a long session with us.  Just to try and help us again, you cannot remember the name, Solly's surname, but you say he is still around.  Do you know where he is living now?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes, I know where he lives at D5 Mamelodi West.

DR BORAINE: Could you repeat that?  I did not hear that.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: He lives in Mamelodi West at D5.

DR BORAINE: It is not working again.  I am not hearing the interpretation.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: He lives at Mamelodi West at D5.

DR BORAINE: Yes, it is fine.  Thank you very much.  The last question that I want to ask is you said in your written statement that, again, ten years after this event took place that you were visited by the police round about January of this year.  Did they explain why they were now investigating this case after all this time?