Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

CHAIRPERSON: Lastly, I'm not suggesting that you stabbed him or not, but there is evidence before us that he was stabbed in the eyes.  Do you contest that medical evidence or not?  The medical evidence doesn't say you did it, neither am I suggesting at this stage that you did it, but do you accept that medical evidence that he was stabbed in the eyes at some stage or the other or not?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I'm here to tell the truth first of all, I'm not here to apologise or to accept something did not happen because I want forgiveness, I'm not going to do that.  All I know and what I did is what I'm saying that Mr August was supposed to be shot by the comrade that was with me, therefore I injured him with a pick handle. I accept that the evidence from the doctor that he was injured in the eyes, I accept that but I do not accept that he was stabbed by a sharp object, therefore I'm not going to change my statement and say that he was stabbed with a sharp object because I want to get amnesty, because I'm the one who was hitting him, there was no knife.

CHAIRPERSON: The Doctor indicates that he was stabbed in the eye.  Do you say the doctor was wrong or do you accept what the doctor says?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I do not accept the fact that he was stabbed because I've already said that I hit him with a pick handle. He was never stabbed with a sharp object. I was the one who was doing it and I am sure that the doctor was not there, but the doctor saw wounds.  The pick handle that I was using was not that smooth, maybe it could cause some injuries that would look like it was done with a sharp object but I'm sure that if the object was sharp his bones could have been cracked, maybe he could have died because of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now look here Mr Majebe, I didn't asked you to give me a medical lecture.  I am not an expert, neither are you about how injuries are inflicted, all I'm asking you is that somehow the doctor has made that finding, if you dispute it, well and good, that's all I'm asking, are you able to dispute what the doctor has said?  If you do dispute it say so, if you don't say so, but I'm not asking for explanations how injuries were inflicted.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I said I'm here to tell the truth, I'm not here to satisfy anyone, to say what a particular person wants me to say and to hear it from what happened, the doctor does not know the object that caused his injuries, I'm the one who knows it, that doctor says that it's a sharp object, I dispute that because I'm the one who hit him with a pick handle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbandazayo, I don't know if I'm going to get further.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson I've already indicated that there's nothing to lead further, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, have you got any questions?

UNKNOWN: Yes I do Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Majebe if Mr August was not carrying a firearm and he just walked past you whilst you were lying there on the ground, on the grass, would you Mr Majebe have attacked?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I hope that in front of you you do have my explanation or my application.  Mr Lucky August, what he did initially before he was seen at that site, he threatened Luyanda Zote, he threatened to kill Luyanda Zote.  If he is not there at his place he would kill his mother and cut off her breast and the breast would be put on top of the table, that would be a message.  When we saw him we had already got a report.  As we went there we went there to watch him.  It is clear that we went there to prevent him from attacking.

UNKNOWN: The question remains, Mr Majebe, if Mr August did not have a firearm and he walked past you in the street while you were lying there, would you Mr Majebe have attacked him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: At the time that we talked about there was conflict between PAC and the ANC and we knew Mr August as a person who would attack us, therefore we were forced to protect ourselves against him.

UNKNOWN: No the question is very simple, whether you had to protect yourselves or whether there was conflict or not, counsel is asking you only one thing, you were lying there, he walked past, if he only continued walking on would you have attacked him or not?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I was going to attack him.  The reason for that is this, at that the time at Fort Beaufort there was conflict between ANC and PAC and he was a member of the ANC and we knew very well that he was one of the people who have contributed in what was happening there and as a leader we were supposed to attack him so that his subordinates who were attacking PAC members could stop and learn a lesson from him.

CHAIRPERSON: So it had nothing to do with defending Luyanda's house and his person, as you told us before?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That is a combination because even the threat was part of what was happening between his organisation and my organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you go out to attack him at same other time, why did you lay in wait for him as if to say, well certainly the impression I got was to see if anybody was going to come and attack this house and then defend the house?  And when he came he appeared to be taking something out of his waist at which point he was then attacked.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: As I said, one of my comrades had a gun, he was supposed to shoot him from the beginning but he was afraid.  He waited for him to come closer but I realised that we could be in danger, I decided to hit him first.

UNKNOWN: So you were in fact lying there to ambush him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct as he also went to our place to attack us.

UNKNOWN: Was he alone when you attacked him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes he was alone when we were attacking him.

UNKNOWN: So all the stories that you've been trying to guard the house, that you've only been lying there waiting and see whether he would pass there, that's not the real issue, the issue was you were ambushing him there and you would like to kill him because he was your opponent?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: To be our opponent is something else.  He was destroying our organisation.  We had authority, it was our authority to go and attack and protect our organisation against anyone who would do anything similar to what he was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: If he was such a great threat and destroying your organisation, why didn't you go and attack him at his house the day before or the week before?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: We wouldn't find him in his house.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know, did you try?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Mr Lucky August as I've told you before, I know him.  I even know that he is a trained guerrilla. As a person who's got the same training, we wouldn't find him in his house, the only place we would find him was in the street or on the way to further his mission, whatever mission that he was about to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So you saw him going into a house, not so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That was before you got any message, correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you and your colleagues run to that house and attack him if he was such a great threat to your organisation?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: We couldn't just go into his house because we knew that he was a trained soldier, we wouldn't just go there straight to him, we were supposed to be cool and calm down because we would be injured by him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sandi.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Majebe, is it correct or not that when you attacked Mr August you were acting in self-defence?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that was self-defence, we were protecting ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you commit a crime then?  Do you think you committed a crime by assaulting him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That was not a crime to protect ourselves or to defend ourselves.