Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: Is this source of ammunition still available in the area?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: No, he has since died.

CHAIRPERSON: Is one able to unlawfully buy bullets in the area still?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, we were able to buy them from Polla Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would this - where would the distributors of this illegal ammunition, where would they get it from?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: As I've already explained, we met at safe places.  I wouldn't be in a position to ask him questions about that because we were not trusting each other because there were people who were collaborating with the police and collecting information.  That is why it was not possible to ask him where he found those ammunitions from.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would people need the ammunition now, after 1994?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Do you mean after 1994, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I never bought those ammunitions after the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not saying you bought it, I'm just asking you, you told me that one is still able to buy unlawful ammunition or illegal ammunition, sorry.  Do you know why people would still want to buy ammunition in this country today?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I am not able to account to that question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the ANC?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you hold any office in its hierarchy?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I am an ordinary member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR SAMUELS: And finally, Mr Thulo, did you know that it was illegal for you to possess these bullets at that time?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I knew.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, I don't suppose you have any questions to this witness have you?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not at this stage, thank you, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	Sir, could you please tell us, you stated earlier that you were ordered to buy ammunition, is that correct?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: By whom?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That is Chris Motokwe.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, could you repeat that please?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Chris Motowe: M-O-T-O-W-E.  Chris Motowe.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Chris Motokwe.  I beg your pardon, Chris Motokwe: M-O-T-O-K-W-E.

MS PATEL: And who is he?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: He was the commander after I left that position.

MS PATEL: Sir, of which section would that be?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That is Unit F.

MS PATEL: Was he specific in his instructions to you in terms of purchasing of weapons, in terms of where you needed to go and what needed to be done with the weapons?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I was given money that I should go and try to find the place where I would be able to buy that ammunition.  Fortunately we were able to trace that place in Polla Park.

MS PATEL: Okay.  What would happen to the weapons after you had purchased them?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: We were near Buyafuti hostel.  In many instances our section was attacked by people who were hostel dwellers.  That is why we went to buy ammunition to defend ourselves.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Would this then be distributed to the various members of your unit?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: You stated that Peters Sewasi was involved with the police hit squad, in your application, do you confirm that?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I verify that because the police were associating themselves with hostel dwellers.

MS PATEL: So what other information did you base this on?  Was there any specific information that Peter Sewasi himself was involved with the police hit squad or are you saying this generally because you think that police were involved with the hostel dwellers?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Those people who were attacking us at all times were driven by police cars.  When people were stabbed with assegais, they were attacked in the full view of the police.

MS PATEL: Were there any other incidents that you can recall that relate to Peter Sewasi, upon which you based your decision or upon which the unit had based its decision?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I would say I've said a mouthful by saying one member of the youth was attacked with assegais, because I'm staying near that hostel.  He was attacked in front of the police or in the presence of the police.

MS PATEL: Do you ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: It was Peter Sibya at that stage?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, he was present when that person was attacked.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea why this person was attacked?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: They would ask questions about people who were not seen regularly near the hostels and they would use Zulu.  Then if you are not able to respond in Zulu, therefore you would be attacked, especially when you can tell them that you come from Beirut or Cathrada or Sesulu or other sections, you would be attacked.  You would survive if you can tell them that you come from Vosloorus or other places outside that area.

MS PATEL: So you're saying very simply that these people were attacked because they were not Zulu speaking?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That's the method which was used, that those people who were not conversant in Zulu would be attacked.  I would say that in short.

MS PATEL: You've mentioned the Polla Park Kangaroo Court in your application, could you briefly explain how the court operated?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: As I've already explained earlier, that we found that meeting being on - maybe you would - I said a meeting, not a Kangaroo Court.  That is where we left Peter there in that meeting.

MS PATEL: Now if you would turn to page 268 of the bundle, at 9(b), you mention specifically the Polla Park Kangaroo Court, you didn't mention it in your testimony here today, but it is mentioned in your application.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say Ms Patel, that when he came back expecting to find this person, that he discovered that that person had been killed and he was shown where this person was burnt?

MS PATEL: But he didn't mention the Kangaroo Court specifically, he just mentioned a meeting generally.  So the gist of my question is really, does this applicant know how that Kangaroo Court operated.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I have no knowledge of their operations.  Maybe I included that Kangaroo Court by mistake but in that meeting, in many instances that is where they would discuss about people who were collaborating with the police and then those people would come and attack Polla Park and Beirut.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you don't know, Mr Thulo, what happened that day, but are you saying you have no knowledge what has to come to be known in these newspapers as the Kangaroo Court, you don't know how these things operate?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That is where people would be asked questions to get some light about particular issues.  That is why I - perhaps I would say they would be question then when I arrive we will be able to have information as to whether why was he, why did he associate himself with attackers of the residents.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking - I prefaced my question by saying I'm not talking about the events of that day, I'm talking generally, are you not aware how the people's courts operated?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I don't have ..(end of tape - no recording on side B of English only tape)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(no recording) 1984 to 1994, you have never been in a position to understand or be told how these courts work and why and how people were convicted and executed by way of being burnt, in most cases by being burnt with a tyre around them?  You never heard of that?