Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-17

MR KHANOVITZ: And you would know from your experience that the information received from informers has to be treated with the greatest of care because often it's unreliable?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is the case.

MR KHANOVITZ: Also often informers are people who have a grudge to bear, they want to inform on maybe people who are in competition with them in the sphere of the drug world and so on and so forth, the information is extremely unreliable?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It could be.

MR KHANOVITZ: Did you regard the information that you received from Peaches as extremely unreliable?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The information regarding Minister Omar?

MR KHANOVITZ: Well in relation to politics in the Western Cape?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I received very little information from Peaches, specifically from him and I accepted it on a bona fide basis that information that he gave to me was correct and if I think about it now I can't think of any reason why at that stage I would not trust Peaches regarding the information that he for example would give me in relation to Minister Omar.

CHAIRPERSON: When that information was supplied to you when did you learn that you had been defrauded by Peaches or crooked, was it Peaches involved with the burning of a taxi and money was paid and then you learnt that the taxi wasn't burned and then they were going to burn some other place and money was paid for that job done and then it was learnt that in fact nothing was done because I think in your statement you also said that you didn't - you had your reservations about Peaches, you weren't trusting him fully, obviously you had your suspicions?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes that is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: When in relation to you harbouring those suspicions did you receive the information from him in relating to Mr Omar?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No that is like that in my statement, Mr Chairperson, I had my suspicions about Peaches and his involvement with the project and his bona fides long after the information was given to me because there was already a project registered at that time and Peaches had already received instructions to help with the elimination of Minister Omar so that was afterwards but beforehand I also had my doubts regarding Peaches but not as much as at approximately the middle of the year in 1989 which is about two or three months after he gave me the information regarding Omar for the first time.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, what is the full name of your brother, the one you contacted?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Johannes van Zyl.

MR KHANOVITZ: Do you have an address for him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes he works with me in my office.  Are you looking for a telephone number?

MR KHANOVITZ: No I want a physical address.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Tactical Risk Control.

MR KHANOVITZ: Yes.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Constantia Park Business Centre.

MR KHANOVITZ: Is that Johannesburg?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Roodepoort.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr Chairperson, I'm not sure what procedure needs to be followed to ask the Committee to issue subpoenas, if I can do so here or if there's another procedure that needs to be followed?

CHAIRPERSON: If a subpoena needs to be issued, you wish somebody to be called then I think the best contact would be through Ms Coleridge and then they issue it administratively but they'd like to have some sort of indication as to why that person is required to testify.  We don't like receiving just a whole list of names, completely unaware why they should be called and then issue a subpoena.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, I want to deal briefly with the Early Learning Centre just in relation to the question of what your motivation was at the time that you agreed to comply with the instruction.  Now at the time that you agreed to comply with the instruction to bomb the Early Learning Centre, bearing in mind that the Early Learning Centre is a building, did you regard that building as being an enemy of the State?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KHANOVITZ: Why was the building an enemy of the State?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is the facility that was used by persons in order to have meetings, according to our information, where discussions had happened and steps were planned that was aimed against the State.  In other words it was the aim of that project to destroy the building, to destroy the facility.  The aim of that project was not aimed against the people who attended those meetings and to kill them and that's why I'm telling you that the project was aimed against the building and not the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanovitz, when it's convenient, when you've finished your line of questioning, we'll take the adjournment.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, the people who were in the Early Learning Centre at the time of the blast who were not members of the Kewtown Youth, did they fall into your understanding of the enemy?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KHANOVITZ: So you would not attempt to justify any harm caused to those people on the grounds that it was in furtherance of a political objective that you were pursuing?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KHANOVITZ: That's the end of my questioning for now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  As mentioned yesterday we are adjourning at 11 o'clock today.  I believe a date for the resumed hearing has been agreed upon?

MS COLERIDGE: That is correct, Chairperson.  From the 12th June to the 23rd June.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much Ms Coleridge.  This matter we've now run out of time.  It was set down for a week.  It's obviously going to last a lot longer than a week.  As you've heard the date for the resumed hearing at this matter is the 12th June, it's been set down for two weeks then through to the 23rd June and that is in fact nine days because one of the days in between is a public holiday.  I know it's quite far in the future but I can assure you that when you're dealing with eleven plus lawyers to get a date that is convenient and available to all of them it can never be done in short periods of time so we hope to be able to conclude it at the next sitting.  We'll now adjourn to the 12th June 2000 and before we adjourn I'd just like to all of those who are celebrating, wish you a blessed and joyous Eid.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, could I just ask one thing?  I discussed it just now with Ms Coleridge, can we just get an undertaking from the Commission's side that we get a copy of the record as soon as possible so we can prepare ourselves?

CHAIRPERSON: That would be a good thing, Mr du Plessis and we'll endeavour to obtain the transcripts as soon as possible.