Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come that you were part of the training programme?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I was a little bit older than my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja and then?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I'm saying, he had faith in me.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you misunderstand the question.  How did it come that you were told to go to this training session?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I realised the severity of the situation in the area at that time and decided that one should receive training.
...(END OF TAPE) on how to use a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: To defend ourselves, so that we would be in a position to fight the attackers.

CHAIRPERSON: When you got the training, were you employed at that time?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not looking for work at the time?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I was looking for work.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did these sessions take?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It would be less than an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Loonat.

UNKNOWN: Can I just ask something Chair, while you're at it?  When did these training sessions take place?  What year?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I do not recall precisely, but this happened after 1985, around 86, 87.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MS LOONAT: Thank you.  Sir, you say Mandla was the person who taught you the use of firearms.  How did he become a leader in your eyes?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Mandla used to reside in G Section but he was requested by the people from L Section to come reside in our area, so that he could help to protect the community and he was also the person who used to liaise with people in senior positions.

MS LOONAT: Who is Bheki Manzi?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He's a school principal and he is the person who fetched Mandla from G Section and let him stay at his home for the purpose of helping in the protection of the community.

MS LOONAT: So you say that Mandla was brought from G Section to L Section to assist you all with training and things to do with the ANC party, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He was brought from G Section to K Section.

MS LOONAT: Is that where you resided, K Section?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I resided at L Section.

MS LOONAT: Please tell the members of the Panel what got you interested in politics?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, can I just clarify something.  Sorry to interrupt.  You said earlier that he was requested by the people of L Section to come and live in your area, now you're saying he lived in K Section.  What Section did you live in?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Bheki Manzi brought Mandla from G Section and let him stay in his house in K Section and he was there to assist in protecting the community.  I resided at L Section.

UNKNOWN: You spoke about Bheki Manzi.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Your evidence was and I've got a note here, that he used to reside in G Section, he was requested by the people of L Section and he came to live in our area to protect the community.  Then you were asked about Bheki Manzi and you said Manzi went and fetched him from G Section.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, clear it up perhaps.

UNKNOWN: Just clarify it for us please.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he staying?  Where were you staying?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Mandla used to reside at G Section.  Bheki Manzi fetched him to stay at his home so that he could assist.  I resided at L Section.

UNKNOWN: So what section was he assisting to defend?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: K Section.

UNKNOWN: Not L Section?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

UNKNOWN: So how did you come to be involved in protecting K Section?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We were protecting our Section, L Section, not K, it's Mandla who was brought to K Section.

UNKNOWN: Anyway you can clear it up in due course.

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, please tell the Honourable Members of this Panel what got you interested in politics from your school days?  What events led up to your interest, your active participation in politics?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Firstly it was the death of Mrs ...(indistinct). After that incident all shops were burned down in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: When was Griffiths killed?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When was he killed?  Was it Victoria?  When was Victoria killed?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know her?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know her?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: She used to represent comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: In 1987, her boy, who was my neighbour, Sikumbuso Ndlovo, as killed in Lindelane.  The people who killed him who were Mr Tshabalala's men, were arrested but later released.

MS LOONAT: Who is Mr Tshabalala?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He was a leader in Lindelane.

MS LOONAT: Leader of which party?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The IFP.

MS LOONAT: And this is when you witnessed the death of your friends, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: There were seven of them who were found dead in Lindelane and one of them was my neighbour, Sikumbuso Ndlovo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahambane, now you got interested in politics, in 1985 you joined the ANC, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume that that was after Victoria Ntenye was killed.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not a comrade before then?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Everyone in the township was a comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We were all comrades in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then maybe you understand comrades not the way I do. And you learned to use a firearm in 1986/87 you say?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As a comrade, under which banner did you, or let me put it this way, were you politically active?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: What do you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do anything under a political banner?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We would hold meetings at the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?  You'd only have meetings?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We also used to guard over the township at night.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the meetings about?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We used to discuss means of securing funds to be able to buy ammunition and firearms to defend ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1986/87?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Around that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and what were the means discussed and decided upon of acquiring funds?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I would inquire from Mandla if the organisation had no funds available and he said there were none, so we were supposed to take our own initiative on how to secure funds.

CHAIRPERSON: Like what?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: At the time, we used to hold discussions on the issue, but no decision would be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely some ideas must have been raised at that meeting.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: What used to happen was when funds were available, people used to use them to go into exile.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you don't understand the question, I'm going to put it one more time.  You say in the meetings you used to discuss funding of the organisation.  Now what was suggested there in those meetings regarding the accumulation of funds?  How would you people be able to get funds?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: There were many ideas put forth, for example the stealing of vehicles.

UNKNOWN: Yes, carry on.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot recall other ideas.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and these meetings were being conducted since about 1985 you say, when you joined the organisation?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did these meetings take place where ways and means of getting funds were discussed?  I'm not asking how long each meeting lasted, I'm saying these meetings were held over a period, which, can you give us an idea as to what that period was?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Our meetings would not last long because we could not arrive at a decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did such meetings - such meetings were held in 1985, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: They were held from 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: 1986?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: 1987?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did these, as far as you're concerned, when did these meetings stop?