Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, if I may.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you must be brief because you've had an opportunity.  Please go ahead.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  I am just referring to something that you said quite recently now, that you are convinced that there was sufficient evidence to prosecute her successfully.
 Do you recall saying this?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct, that is my opinion that there was sufficient evidence in the compilation of the docket in order to prosecute her successfully.

MR SEMENYA: Successfully prosecute her for what offence?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think that in general as we have already said the whole compilation of the docket dealt with high treason, in the general sense, by that I am not saying that she would have been found guilty.  There would have been many other charges of possession of firearms and there would have been a number of complaints which could have arisen from that specific docket.
 Once again, it lies in the hands of the Attorney General to decide which charges would be filed if he wanted to prosecute.

MR SEMENYA: My question is a very simple one, she could have been successfully prosecuted of what offence?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think that I replied to your question, I said that there could be a main complaint or charge of high treason and many other alternative charges.
 It is difficult for me to say now particularly of what.  In brief I would say of high treason.

MR SEMENYA: After 1990 she could have been prosecuted of high treason, successfully you say?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I cannot recall specifically when the docket was handed to the Attorney General, if I can just refresh my memory.  I do not remember exactly when the docket was handed to the Attorney General.

MR SEMENYA: On one of the records it is 3rd of April 1989.  This is the time that you say she could have been successfully prosecuted of high treason?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: That is your final answer?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is my final answer, yes.

MR SEMENYA: I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Kritzinger, thank you for your attendance and for your evidence, you may now stand down.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I call Wilhelm Johannes Coetzee.  Welcome, good morning, thank you for (indistinct)

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp, you are representing Mr Coetzee?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairperson, I represent all the witnesses who will testify today and as with the previous witness, there is also a short statement which will be read into the evidence.
 Mr Chairman, I stated at the commencement of these proceedings that these statements were drawn in a (indistinct) manner and addressing the issues specifically mentioned in the subpoenas.  I have also mentioned at the outset that there is no objection to any other questions being asked of these witnesses as far as they relate to these proceedings, and that they will assist this Commission as far as possible.
 May I proceed, Mr Chairperson?  Mr Coetzee, would you please read the statement into the record which is in front of you?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: "I, the undersigned Wilhelm Johannes
Coetzee, declare under oath as follows.  I was a Lieutenant Colonel in the then Police Services.  The contents of this statement fall within my personal knowledge, unless otherwise stated and are correct and true according to my best knowledge.
 I was from 3 April 1981 up to 31 December 1987 attached to the Security Branch, Soweto.  I was initially attached to another branch in Soweto.  This included inquiries, information etc.  Later I was used for the collection of information gathering and in that component.
 When I reached the Security Branch, I was a Warrant Officer and was promoted to the rank of Captain when I left.  I was advised not to give details of my career, more careers.  I deal with the matters mentioned in the subpoena.
 The interrogation and the death of Sithole.  I believe that the incidents referred to took place in 1990.  I have no knowledge of the interrogation or the death of Sizwe Sithole.
 Use and handling of informers as sources associated with the Mandela United Football Club.  During my time in Soweto I was not involved with any tasks relating to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela or the Mandela United Football Club.
 Mrs Mandela's premises were on the eastern side of Soweto and did not fall within the area for which I had a primary responsibility.
 I am naturally aware of it, that the Security Branch made use of informers and I myself, made use of informers.  I am not personally involved of any informers which were specifically associated with Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela or the Mandela United Football Club.
 I am aware that information regarding Mrs Mandela was received from time to time from a great number of various sources as it was received about other people as well.
 The kidnapping, assault and murder of Stompie Seipei in 1988.  In the stage that these things took place, I was no longer attached to the Security Branch Soweto and I have no personal knowledge of these incidents.
 The relation between the Safety Branch, Murder and Robbery, STRATCOM divisions and other Units in the South African Police with regard to matters relating to Mrs Mandela and the Football Club.  During the time that I was working at Soweto Security Branch, there was no STRATCOM component at Soweto.
 My Unit operated covertly and in that regard, did not co-operate in the same way with other Units of the South African Police Services.   Any liaison which did take place, would only have happened at a very senior post level.  To the best of my knowledge, the whole STRATCOM idea only found its basis in 1989 on a national level, that is.
 The use of intelligence material and the relationship with the Intelligence Agencies with regard to matters regarding Mrs Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.
 I have no knowledge of any such material and I am not aware of any position I think, with regard to Mrs Winnie Mandela and the Football Club.
 The interrogation of Themba Johannes Mabotha.  I am advised that this matter took place during 1989, I have no personal knowledge of the interrogation or the death of Themba Johannes Mabotha.
 Information with regard to observations or monitoring including telephone tapping, bugging, etc in connection with matters relating to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.  I know that tapping of Mrs Mandela's telephone conversations took place at her home.  However, I never went to her home, never was there.  As far as I know, also there was never at any stage permanent monitoring of Mrs Mandela or her Football Club.
 The killing of Pretorius and two MK members, Maleleke and Mbenenge.  These also took place once I had already left Soweto and I have no personal knowledge thereof.

MR KEMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Mr Coetzee, which section of the Security Branch in Soweto were you a member of?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: The Intelligence gathering component.

MR VALLY: Would you gather intelligence through informants as well?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Could you repeat the question for me please.

MR VALLY: Would you gather intelligence through informers as well?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Positive.

MR VALLY: Did you have informers in the Madikizela-Mandela household?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Not at all.

MR VALLY: Did you receive any reports from any informers whatsoever regarding Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: That is possible, but only on a ad hoc to which people did not have access.

MR VALLY: I am not sure if I understand your answer.  Let me get some clarity.  At the time you left the Soweto Security Branch in 1987, you were then a Detective Major?