Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were they all members of ANC Youth League as
4	far/...
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far as you know?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just tell me.  Why did you leave your home?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I left my home because of the police and the members of the vigilante group.  I didn't want them to come and harass my parents because of me.  Because everyday my parents would say Themba, there were people here looking for you carrying guns.  It is better if you leave and hide yourself somewhere else.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then you left.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I left.

JUDGE WILSON: When was that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: What are you referring to, Sir?

JUDGE WILSON: When did you leave your parents, when did you leave home?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I left my home in 1988.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then you I assume occasionally kept on coming back home from time to time?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And when you left home you were still a student?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was still a student.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you have to abandon your studies?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, I stopped studying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You were never able to resume your studies?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I am corresponding in prison.  I am continuing with my studies.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did you think your life was in danger, as a result of what?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I thought that my life was in danger because my organisation, which is the ANC, was still banned and we were 4	just/...
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just toyi-toying.  And the whites would see us toyi-toying
and they would go to ask my parents as to why was I toyi-toying and they would kill me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Except that in 1988 the vigilante was not there, was it?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was not present in 1988.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It came into existence, we were told, around 1990.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, it was formed in 1990.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Question inaudible)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you leave school in 1988 when you left your home and stopped studying then?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: I am a little confused because you told us a short while ago, as I understood your evidence, that at school you used to talk about the deceased and the vigilantes, but you left school before they came.  Can you explain?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Can I explain?   I was not studying any more.  I used to go to the school to pay my comrades a visit because even in school there was a lot of harassment.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was clothing you in the meantime, supplied your clothes and food?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: The person who was clothing me, giving me food I do not just understand what kind of a question is this.  Do you refer to now or when I was still an infant?

ADV DE JAGER: I know the Government is clothing you now in prison, but before you went to prison.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Are you referring to the clothes from the gaol, Sir?
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ADV DE JAGER: /...
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ADV DE JAGER: While you were away, 1988 till 1990, who
cared for you and who gave you food and clothes?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was doing everything for myself.

ADV DE JAGER: But you didn't work.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I wasn't working.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that why you robbed the vehicles?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: In order to clothe yourself and to have food to eat.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I believe that as a member of the SDU you were instructed to defend the community.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was that the reason why you were given that firearm?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's the reason, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How were you to defend the community, were there limits to it?  Could you for example kill other people?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I would never kill people who do not have anything against me, innocent people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What about people who were not innocent?  I am trying to find out from you whether you understood your instructions from the SDU or whatever when they gave you the firearm, I want to know from you whether you understood that to mean that should the need arise you should use that gun and if necessary in defence kill.  That is all I want to find out from you.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, there were such decisions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But no particular person was targeted as to be killed.
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, there was no person indicated as our target.

JUDGE WILSON: I understand that you were living in Soweto from 1988 to 1990, is that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was in Soweto from 1988 to 1990?

JUDGE WILSON: 1988 to 1990.  You left school in 1988 didn't you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you left home, as I understand your evidence, and you went to live at Soweto, is that so?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I just went to Soweto, you know, just to go and take a few rounds and come back.

JUDGE WILSON: Oh, you didn't go and live.  I understood from what you said to my brother that when you went to live with Father Paul in Soweto.  You took refuge with him, you told us many comrades took refuge with him and they were all members of the ANC Youth League, but now you say you didn't.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was staying at Father Paul's place.

JUDGE WILSON: For how long?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I spent about two months at Father Paul's mission, two to three months.

JUDGE WILSON: And then where did you go?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: From Father Paul's mission I came back to the township.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you from then on support yourself by robbing and stealing, is that so?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's not correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, you didn't work.  You were asked if anybody supported you and you gave no name.   Will you tell us how you supported yourself?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I have parents, parents were taking care of me.  Those were the people who were giving me food and every time 4	when/...
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when I went to them to cry they would help.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't say that a few minutes ago.  Why were you so hesitant?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: As I tell you I have parents who help me when I do not have anything.  They help me in such a way - they even helped me when I was from Father Paul's mission.

JUDGE WILSON: I have no information direct myself, I am merely looking at the documents that have been put up, and in there the document dealing with your record it says that the person you killed was 18 years old at the time, is that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he still at school?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: In which year, Sir?

JUDGE WILSON: In the year that he was killed, 1990.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was not schooling in 1990.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he at school, the young man you killed, Mayeko?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No.

JUDGE WILSON: But he was only 18.  You told us that you came home on the night of the 23rd December, is that correct?   At about what time did you come home?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was round about seven to eight o'clock.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you go the same night to the Executive Committee?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, I went to the Executive Committee the same night because I didn't have any time to stay at home.  I suspected that any time people might come to pick me up.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you take William Faltein with you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: What time did you get to the Executive
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Committee do you think?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I didn't have a watch at that time, I can't tell.  I didn't even ask time.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it during the course of the night?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.