Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MR MOERANE: Once more I put it to you that this was just a statement which was made up for you to sign.  What's your comment?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I have already give evidence that I consulted with my legal representatives and that they faxed the statement through for me, that I studied it quickly, signed it and sent it back.  According to me as I studied it, it was correct.

MR MOERANE: You see you were trying to reconcile it with the statement you made and the rest of you made in respect of the second inquest.  Page 58 of bundle 5, paragraph 9, where you say
"A person opened the left front door of the kombi, jumped out and opened fire."
That's what you say in that statement.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, that was my experience with both incident and that is why I have stayed with my story, that shots were fired.  My conviction is that shots were fired at me and the other members, either by that person or by one of the other persons who were close to him.

MR MOERANE: Well I put it to you that you are still involved in the same modus operandi in which you were involved with regard to the first incident and the second incident, and that being coming to this Honourable Committee with a prepared version to which seven of you Delmas deponents - I'll say Delmas deponents although you didn't sign your statement at Delmas, but these identical statements, have come to present to this Committee.  What is your comment?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: The fact that these statements are almost word for word the same is something that I have only learnt during these proceedings, I have never seen any of the other statements.  The statement that was sent to me was in accordance with the version that I gave to my legal representatives and I undersigned.  The fact that some aspects may be similar, or the fact that it may have been typed word for word the same on the computer, is something that I cannot comment on.  I have come here to tell the story as it happened on that day, according to my experience.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that you knew that amongst others, Col de Kock had already disclosed what had happened in both incidents?  In other words, before you made your statement.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I cannot really recall.  I didn't always follow all the hearings of the Truth Commission.  I saw some of his evidence, but I cannot recall specifically that I knew that he had given evidence surrounding this particular matter.

MR MOERANE: Well you knew that he had been prosecuted in a criminal Court.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could Mr Moerane please just assist the witness so that he can know whether he was prosecuted for this matter.

MR MOERANE: Well all of us in these hearings know that Col De Kock was not prosecuted, we all know that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Well I think you should just put it to the applicant, I don't know if he knows.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct, Mr Hayes, that you are aware that Col de Kock had spilled the beans with regard to the Piet Retief murders?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I know that he would have been here, because after I made my application for amnesty, I made the inference when the applications were grouped together at the beginning of this year, I saw and I assumed that he would have applied for amnesty for this matter, but I had no specific knowledge as such that he had applied for amnesty for this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, at the time that you signed your application, during December 1996, were you aware that at that stage Col de Kock had spoken about and revealed his version of what had occurred at these two Piet Retief incidents that are the subject of this hearing.  Is that the question, Mr Moerane?  At that stage, were you aware that Mr de Kock had spoken about these two incidents?

MR MOERANE: Yes, that is the question, Mr Chairman.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I think I must have known at that stage, yes.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  And I put it to you that the version that you and the others presented here is another gigantic attempt at damage control.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Not at all, it is the truth as I experienced it and that is what I have given evidence about.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Hayes, I just want to - did you have any dealings with the source as well?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Not at all.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you have any files on any of these victims?  Were you part of the gathering of information on people, MKs or anything of that kind?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I did investigate ANC activities, but not in Swaziland.  So I did not deal physically with these files, I was involved with other matters, also connected to the ANC, but not specifically with the ANC in Swaziland.

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to be more specific.  Of any of the victims, did your office in Piet Retief had any files on them, prior to these incidents?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I wouldn't be able to say, I don't know.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat.  Ms van der Walt, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: No, thanks Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: I just want to know, you say you received your orders from de Kock, were you not a part of the attempt, most probably on the Friday between the incidents, when Manzini arrived at the ambush point without somebody being there, the abortive attempt?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I cannot recall such an incident.  I don't know whether such an incident took place, because I wasn't always present.  I know that I was present during the two incidents, but I cannot recall about the incident which did not take place.

MR MALAN: Thus you cannot recall being present at an incident which did not work?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And if I understood you correctly, you also stated that Pienaar asked you to participate, so he informed you about what was going to be done, but you say that you received the instructions from de Kock.  What do you mean by that?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I specifically stated that I received orders from W/O Pienaar and Col de Kock jointly, I said from both of them.

MR MALAN: Yes, but all instructions over the entire stage from both of them.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: They were together and what I meant by that is that either the one or the other dealt with specific areas of the operation, but Col de Kock was basically the overall commander because he was the most senior and therefore the instructions were basically from him.

MR MALAN: Who approached you first?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: To participate?

MR MALAN: Yes.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: W/O Pienaar.

MR MALAN: And at which stage did you receive instructions from de Kock?  What was the first occasion?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: The first occasion was just before we went out, all of us were called together and we received the instructions indicating that it would an ambush.  That is when I received the instructions.  There were discussions before I arrived there, because in both instances I had to rush to get there because I was busy with other work.

MR MALAN: And in both cases you knew from the beginning that de Kock would be involved?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Right from the very first time that Mr Pienaar approached you?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes.  When I arrived there he was there and he was a member of the planning.  So when Pienaar called me in I didn't know that he would be there, but when I arrived at the scene and the planning was conveyed to us, I saw Mr de Kock there.