Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-29

WITNESS:   My friend who was shot is present at the moment.  The other one whose son was killed by Bernard ran away, and I don't know where she is now.  The other ones whose sons also died I haven't seen them.  I don't know whether they came to the first Truth Commission or they are still coming.  I am really not certain. You almost said as to what your wish was, or your wish is with regard to your harassment and how this changed your life.  What is your expectation that you want us to be aware of?   ---   My biggest wish is that these people who harassed - let me just say it straight that the boers who were harassing and torturing us during their reign are still there.  They are still walking freely.  I wish that they could come forward and come and answer certain questions in front of the people and the community or the South Africans, and tell us whether they still want to fight and harass us, or what do they want out of us.  Because I feel that in my heart I have forgiven, but I do not know what they want from us, because even until today we are still being told about things that happened in the past, that we are people of a certain calibre that they did not want to associate with.  Now I want these people to come forward and tell us what they want out of us, and that we should go towards a road of reconciliation.  And they should stop going around and wreaking havoc amongst black people.  The costs that I incurred in trying to rebuild my house I would like to recover.

DR MAGWAZA: How are you feeling now at the moment?   How is your health or your life?

WITNESS:   I still do have some fears.  I still do have some anger.  As a result thereof I don't go to certain funerals because I am scared.  I have got so much empathy.  Whenever something happens I just burst into tears because of the things that I have seen in the past.  These things haven't hardened me, but they have made me very sensitive.  I get panic attacks and I am always scared.  I don't know whether I could attribute this to old age, but I have a lot of empathy ever since these things started happening.  I do not want to see a bad thing happening.  Even when I see the Truth Commission hearings appearing on TV I don't watch because of the empathy that I have now.

DR MAGWAZA: Maybe you would need some psychological help, or you would need to see some social workers so that you can talk to them about your harassment.  I shall pass on to the Chairman.

KHOZA MGOJO: We are running out of time, but there are certain factors that we would like to put into perspective.  At the time when you were in Umlazi you received a certain letter that was written by Zakile Malinga.  Do you know who this Zakile is?

WITNESS:   No, I don't.  It was after my house was attacked.  Two policemen came into my house, two black policemen.  They had a letter with them, and they told me that the letter had been written by Zakile Malinga, and he wrote it whilst he was in Swaziland, and they wanted to know what the connections were between me and Zakile.  I never even allowed them to go into the house.  I got very angry and annoyed, and I asked them as to what Z41 was there, but they never answered me.  And I asked them as to who had opened the letter.  They did not want to answer me.  And I chased them away.

KHOZA MGOJO: The politics of Chesterville are not like the others in other residential areas.  In order to get an understanding you need to dig a little bit deeper.  There are comrades as well as Inkatha.  Now, I want you to tell me as to whether you knew the parents of the A-Team gang, and whether their parents participated in the prayer meetings or what happened?

WITNESS:   We knew their parents, because Chesterville is quite small and we knew each other, but the parents of the A-Team were never involved in the prayer meetings.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you ever invite them to come to the prayers?

WITNESS:   We invited everybody to come to the prayer meeting, but some of them decided not to take part in the prayer meetings.

KHOZA MGOJO: What about the A-Team gang, are the members still alive?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are, and I know them.

KHOZA MGOJO: If we want to get them can we get them?

WITNESS:   I do not know where they are at the present moment, but they are still alive.

KHOZA MGOJO: You are a very brave woman.  You are very courageous, and your courage has made you survive this long harassment.  We do admire you for your courage.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Luthuli, where you said you were phoned by a certain Lieutenant Lawrence.  He even asked you to give him the quotation of the damage that took place in your house.  Did he ever say where he was phoning from?  Did you ever make the quotation?

WITNESS:   He said he was phoning from C R Swart.  Maybe I am the one who spoilt the whole thing because of anger, because at that time I was angry.  When he phoned me I told him that if he had a problem with me he could come personally or send somebody to come and kill me, and his problems would be over.  Or if I heard I was a problem to his Government he might as well come and shoot me.  I was really angry over the phone.  I never made the quotation, because at that time I was angry and I did not trust them.  I found that to be degrading for me to take the quotation to the C R Swart.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Luthuli, good morning.  I want to ask you a few questions.  As Mr Lister said I am out of this area, so you must forgive me my ignorance.  You said that when the trouble started you dated it back to 1981, but the prayer meetings only started in 1986.  But a number of people had died in that period.  Can you tell us how many people you think died during that period, number of young people?

WITNESS:   I am sorry I didn't a list.  I had this list in my notebook.  They were in the - some were in the A-Team, as well as in the other group, that is our youth, because to me I was a parent to all the children, the A-Team as well as the other group.  I do have the notebook, but I do not have it with me today.  They are about 21 who died during that period.

KHOZA MGOJO: Can you please explain to us.  You said earlier on that ... (inaudible) ... prayer meetings.  Were you a member of the ANC?  Were you also harbouring, as they said, people who were freedom fighters, or terrorists as they were called?  Was it because - why was your home attacked so many times?  Why were you attacked so many times?

WITNESS:   I could say that even in Chesterville, that is my home, in 1986 was at some stage surrounded by the soldiers because it was alleged that I was a youth leader in Chesterville.  They said I was controlling the youth.  I was not controlling the youth, but I was controlling the youth in my church, not the youth in the community.  But I got used to all the youth due to my responsibilities in church, and I used to teach or educate the youth about the circumstances that we live in, as well as the situation in our land, and I was taken or regarded as a freedom fighter, and I never disputed that.

KHOZA MGOJO: Can I then ask you directly, were you an active member of any political organisation?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  From the beginning my family was a member of the ANC before it got banned.  When it got banned my family belonged to the ANC.  After it got banned, when the UDF started, I was a member as well as a supporter of the UDF.  I was a fully-fledged member, but I was a member who was bringing peace because I wanted to fight for the rights of the people, but at the same time not breaking the laws.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible) ... last question.  When you were talking about what you would want from the Truth Commission you said, "they" removed your tiles and "they" removed your windows.  Who were these "they"?  Was it the policemen, or people in the community, army?  Who was it that actually took things away from your house?