Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It was a State Advocate, I cannot recall who he was.

MR MOSTERT: Were any applications made for bail at that point?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOSTERT: Did he defend you throughout this entire matter?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I only appeared on the day when I was charged.  When I came out under Section 29 I said that I didn't have any money for an advocate and they said that they would assign someone who would defend me but before my escape I had not seen him yet.

MR MOSTERT: And after the escape who acted for you then as legal representation?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Directly after my escape, I'm not certain, but I think it was the same State Advocate and three CP MP's came to us and offered to represent us at no charge.  It was Advocate Prinsloo, Advocate Fanie Jacobs and I can't recall the third advocate's name but nonetheless the advocate was involved with the TRC - Chris de Jager is his name.

MR MOSTERT: How did they reach you, did they tell you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Apparently Mr Treurnicht sent them to us.

MR MOSTERT: When you refer to "we" is that you and Fanie Goosen?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Did they represent you throughout?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, they represented us initially until we realised that there wasn't enough evidence to find Fanie guilty in the court case and they weren't certain that Fanie was actually involved with the murder because all the evidence pointed only at me - and Fanie - and I told them that I was involved alone in the action in order to protect him and the police caught him out so that he would say that he was involved and later he went back and said that he wasn't involved.  I never made any statement in order to make him appear guilty or to indicate his involvement and they were doubtful as to his involvement and he had to change his plea and because he was changing his plea they could no longer represent us.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say, Mr Lottering, that Mr Treurnicht sent his advocates to you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to Mr Andries Treurnicht one of the founders of the Conservative Party, the former Cabinet Minister?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I said Mr - I think it was Dr Treurnicht.

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, I would like to refer you to page 13 of the documents and that refers to a confession taken by a Magistrate Botha.  One is a newspaper report which contains certain information which directly relates to information contained in the confession.  Mr Lottering, you must please explain to the Committee very carefully what happened here.  On 4th January, before Magistrate Botha in Johannesburg, you made a confession relating to the offences committed in which you stated that you admitted everything, everything which you had done and you said in respect of the murder and the other offences which you committed, said that it was done with political objective and you motivated that statement.  But then you also said, relating to the robbery of the liquor store, you said it was the only illegal act, page 59 on top of the page:  "It was the only illegal act which I committed for personal gain.  I later obtained work as a body guard in Johannesburg and I was still employed there."  Further on you said "under no circumstances was I prepared to talk about my previous acts because I saw what had happened to some of my trusted friends, I decided to say everything that I knew to expedite the matter.  I only have remorse regarding to the robbery which I committed because that I committed for personal gain but I don't doubt that my political acts were done for the furtherance of my volk.  I would appreciate it if my political acts were separated from the others so that my innocent friends not suffer as a result of my act and be treated on the same footing as me."  Now here you've stated, unequivocally, that the robbery you committed as a purely criminal act for personal benefit?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The statement was made whilst I was under Section 29 detention and that stage, before the statement was made, I was the only one of our group who refused to make any statements.   The security police, Hennie Binneman, who was also arrested with us - they brought Hennie Binneman to me and asked me - actually commanded me - to make a statement and they wanted to charge our group jointly for all these offences and there were problems in that regard because he was in another cell, he wasn't in the same cell as I was and there were certain things which we did separately which he had no knowledge of and I was asked to make my statement in such a way that I could exculpate him completely and also that I could also exculpate those against whom there was no evidence.

MR MOSTERT: If you refer to a cell are you referring to a cell within Die Order Boerevolk?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Die Order van die Dood?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: So what he asked you, was that you had to take the punch on behalf of the others for their sakes?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Is that the exclusive reason why you made a statement to the effect that you regard it as a criminal act?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes and he also heard about the robbery.  He had never before heard about the robbery and he told me that I should say that that was exclusively criminally motivated and that is why I made that statement.

MR MOSTERT: Did you regard that as an order from Mr Binneman?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: In what position of authority was he versus of yourself?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He was in a position of trust, he was a leadership figure and the orders were channelled from Mr de Beer via Mr Binneman.

MR MOSTERT: What was your position?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I was just an ordinary troupe.

MR MOSTERT: You had no position of authority?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, I functioned to some extent as a secretary but that was actually just to store information which we thought we might need later on.

MR MOSTERT: I refer the honourable members to page 56.  Here where you said, bottom of the page, "it was totally non-political and I would appreciate it if it was treated on that footing."  What was the purpose of putting it like that, was it your purpose to mislead?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Who did you want to mislead?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The security police.

CHAIRPERSON: If that was the case Mr Lottering, why didn't you mislead them with regard to the murder, why didn't you say the murder was entirely personal or why admit the murder was political and the robbery personal, why not just say they were both personal if the order was to keep your comrades away from it as far as possible.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: That's how the instruction was relayed to me, I didn't ask any questions.  I also mislead them in another context as far as the murder was concerned because I said it was done on my own initiative to take out left wing leaders, political leaders, I said that it was my own idea.  I don't know exactly where that is stated.

ADV BOSMAN: May I interrupt here, what I have some difficulty here with Mr Lottering is this, were their any ranks in The Order of Death?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No we had no ranks.  The cells had virtually no contact with each other.  Mr Binneman was from another cell in Johannesburg.  It was only later that we had some contact with him.  I knew that there were other cells in other towns but I never had contact with them.

ADV BOSMAN: But how did you identify the people who were leaders or who could give orders?