Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

WITNESS:   (PATRICK MACHEDE)  Comrade Silo has mentioned a few points.  Now, the problem is that we were put in different cells.  Comrade Silo was in cell No 3.  I was in cell No 7.  We were in different cells, as I've mentioned.  Now, on this day the 4th of May, it was just after breakfast, I saw Comrade Sipho passing by the door.  It was this steel door.  The door was still open but the burglar door was closed.  Comrade Sipho passed and he greeted me.  We used to call each other by names.  He used to say I'm Malapropism and I used to call him Mr No Problem.  As I was standing at the door because we'd been in the cells for quite some time, he passed and he greet me by the name I've just mentioned and I greeted him back.  And I could see he was handcuffed at the back and he was wearing a jean.  And they passed with him, they headed for the charge office, and they came back going to the CIDs offices.  These were opposite my cell.  They got him into the office and I heard him screaming and I wanted to peep through the door and I saw there was a Mr Sithole, who as since died, and I Mr Moia and Joachim Mashade and Mr Squash Magoe and the other one who was called Ramongalo.  They were busy.  It seemed as if they were assaulting him.  After some few minutes as I was trying to investigate this matter Adjutant Sithole passed and he realised that the door was open and he pushed the door heavily and he  was asking why did they open this door.  I wanted to push the door so that he doesn't close it and that's where there was a conflict of words between Noha and Sithole.  Noha was responsible for the cells.  He was the person closing the doors and opening the doors every time we had to go and have our meals.  The ordered him to close the door and he did just that.  After a few minutes I could hear the door was opened and a certain Ramongalo came to fetch me.  As I was following him he said to me, "You are a bandit and a bandit would never at any stage follow the officer.  The officer has to follow the bandit."  He said, "Come and have a look at one of your friends.  He has urinated on himself.  He has shit on himself and this is the situation that you are going to confront."  And as I was entering this door Silo was on the other side and I was on the other side.  Has face was swollen and I tried to greet him but I could realise that he was a bit confused.  I tried to speak to him but he just ignored me.  And they put us into the cell and Comrade Sipho was lying with his hands handcuffed at the back.  The floor was full of blood and water.  And they pointed at him and they said, "This is your friend.  Wake him up."  Now, this Moia kicked him and he dropped him on the waist and he said, "Wake up.  Have a look at your Comrades."  Comrade Sipho lifted his head.  He wanted to say something but he couldn't.  He fell.  And Comrade Silo couldn't hold himself and I comforted him and we went back to our cell.  It was clear that Silo was not aware of what was happening at that time.  I left with him to take him to his cell and we stopped at his cell door and he was taken back to  Comrade Silo's cell and I was taken to my cell.  But I went to cell 6 where I met other Comrades until the 5th where the attorney Richard Spoor came to see us to tell us that Comrade Sipho has passed away.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Patrick.  Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me.  I know that you still have about five other witnesses to testify today.  I'm going just to ask clarifying questions.  Obviously more information is available especially from the two witnesses but I think our investigating unit will make contact with them.  The alleged perpetrators, are they still around.  Has anybody seen them?

WITNESS:   Some of them have died.  I believe some of them are still alive and some are working.  Joachim Mashabe is no longer a policeman.  Magoe is an adjutant.  Moia is still employed within the South African Police Services.  Sithole passed away.  He committed suicide and the rest are still alive.

MR DLAMINI: We'll be relying on you to help us to reach those who are still alive and where they are.  The death certificate was it issued?

WITNESS:  (MRS MUTSI)   He was searched and there was a report and in this report there was a stamp written "dead" but I never got a death certificate at all and I went to Professor Olivier at Bloemfontein to conduct a post mortem as to the cause of his death and what caused his death really.  He managed to take his photographs as he was conducting this port mortem and he was keeping all the photos from day one until the last day when they were making a post mortem.  He is the person who will give light as to what happened.

MR DLAMINI: Yes.  Is he still around?  Do you still have  contact with Professor Olivier?

WITNESS:   I do not have his contact number and I don't know as to whether is he still alive.  Maybe some investigations can be made as to his whereabouts.  It was at the Pilinomi mortuary.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.  Can I also find out if the family was represented at the post mortem?  Any lawyer or anybody who represented the family during the post mortem?

WITNESS:  I requested them to invite me.  I requested them to let me in the room where they would conduct the post mortem so that I can see the cause of his death but the lawyer organised it in a different way.  He said they should leave me behind and he said to them I was very confused and his statement - or that didn't allow me to go to the theatre.  And I told them that I'm a brave woman.  I'm brave enough to go and have a look.  But I requested God to help me, to strengthen me to be in that room as they were conducting the post mortem because I wanted to see the cause of his death.  He was the only child.

MR DLAMINI: The lawyer who refused you the access into the post mortem room what is his or her name?

WITNESS:   I won't tell you the name but these were the members of the organisation.

MR DLAMINI: The lawyer concerned, was he appointed by the organisation or he was coming from the State side?

WITNESS:  It was the organisations lawyer because I investigated that and I was given an explanation.  But they work only around Bloemfontein.

MR DLAMINI: I'm sure the ANC offices will be able to help us with that.  The magistrate who presided, can I confirm -is it Mr J P Simene who appeared in one of the newspapers?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's the correct name. Is he still there at Odendaalsrus?   ---   I do not know.

MR DLAMINI: Would perhaps Silo throw some light?  Do you know his whereabouts?

WITNESS:   (SILO DITEBE)   I really don't have knowledge as to his whereabouts.

MR DLAMINI: Mr Chairman, as I said that I think more probing will have to be followed up by the investigative unit.  I would like to hand over to you.  Perhaps before I do that, can I ask the names of the teachers who testified at the inquest?

WITNESS:   It's Mr Mogothu.  His nickname is Chiliki.  And the other one was a Mr Tshobokoane.

MR DLAMINI: Are they still around?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are still around.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.