Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

MR WILLS: I call the second applicant.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nzimande, may you please stand up so you may take an oath.  Please raise or lift, the microphone.  Switch on your microphone so you may hear what you say.

M A NZIMANDE: (Duly sworn in, states).

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Nzimande, you have also been convicted of the incident that occurred, that we have been talking about today, on the 26th of September 1992 and, in that regard, you were convicted of nine counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder.  Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And, in that regard, you received a prison sentence of 14 years?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And this is the incident in respect of which you are applying for amnesty?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, how long have you lived in Gengeshe?

M A NZIMANDE: I was born in Gengeshe.

MR WILLS: You have heard the evidence of Mr Poswa in relation to the events, both leading up to the incident on the 26th of September and Mr Poswa has described what happened on the 26th of September.  Do you confirm those events in so far as your recollections are concerned?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I do agree.

MR WILLS: Now, you were also part of the ANC group that went back to Gengeshe on the 26th of September.  Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And were you armed on the day in question?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I was armed.  I had a spear.

MR WILLS: And did you kill anybody in the day, on the day in question?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, there was one that I stabbed, but I was not alone.  We were many, we were all stabbing him.

MR WILLS: And can you give the committee the name of that person?

M A NZIMANDE: It was Namawakwe Gillie.

MR WILLS: That post mortem is at page 113 to 118 of the record, Chairperson, committee members.  Now, if the committee will just bear with me.  Now, why did you participate in this incident on the 26th of September 1996, 1992?

M A NZIMANDE: We were going back to our homes to see how they were damaged.

MR WILLS: What did you want to do when you arrived there on that day?

M A NZIMANDE: We wanted to go back and stay there.

MR WILLS: Now, were you also a part of the group that was forced out of Gengeshe after the incident on the 12th of April 1992 when Mr Poswa's son was killed?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you made a statement in, which you attached to your amnesty application and that has been handed in as and listed 35A.  The statement that you assisted in the translation with earlier.  Do you remember this statement?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I do remember it.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of that statement?

M A NZIMANDE: It might happen that some of the things inside the letter are true and some might not be, because I wrote it while in prison and I did not have anyone to help me to relate the story, but I believe most of the things are true, not everything.

MR WILLS: Now, as I understand it, you have been incarcerated at Waterval Prison, which is in Utrecht.  Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And it was only recently that you were brought to Pietermaritzburg, in fact, specifically for the purposes of this hearing.  Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you know that Mr Poswa is, in fact, the first applicant, that is, is, has, in fact, been incarcerated at Pietermaritzburg new prison all the time. Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes.

MR WILLS: He has not been with you.

M A NZIMANDE: He has been in Pietermaritzburg.

MR WILLS: He was not with you at Waterval?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct, I was not with him.

MR WILLS: Now, you say in the statement that after the death of Spatelie Poswa, you stayed in the Richmond area for two weeks, but, importantly, you went to the Magistrates Court in Richmond to try and get the magistrate to assist in the resolution of this problem.  Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: We did not stay for two weeks, but it was two days to correct it.

MR WILLS: Yes, what I am concerned about is the attempts that you made to try and resolve this problem.  Did you speak to people in order to try and put an end to this problem?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, some men came trying to discuss the issues so that we can all reconcile.

MR WILLS: And did those efforts succeed?

M A NZIMANDE: No, they did not.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Poswa has given evidence to the effect that the violence started in 1991 and he has basically said that it was very difficult for an ANC member after, in fact, 1992 to reside in Gengeshe.  Do you remember that evidence?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I remember they did not want any ANC members to stay in that place.

MR WILLS: Now, what about neutral people?  People who were not belonging to any political party?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think there has been no interpretation to Mr Nzimande's ...

INTERPRETER: We would like to ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... response.

INTERPRETER: Yes, we would like to apologise, but he said that,

M A NZIMANDE: Other people were not allowed to stay in that area.  Only IFP members were allowed to stay.

MR WILLS: Sorry.  Reference has been made to a, the camp, to a camp and Mr Poswa has described how when the group of ANC supporters arrived at Gengeshe on the morning of the 26th of September, the IFP members were at a camp.  Do you recall that evidence?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I remember, it was at Becker Poswa.

MR WILLS: Now, is it possible that anybody else, but an IFP member could have been positioned at the camp who was staying in that camp?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Who would those, what would the political affiliation of the people be who were at that camp that was with Becker Poswa?

M A NZIMANDE: There were IFP members in that camp.

MR WILLS: And any, were there any ANC members there?

M A NZIMANDE: ANC members could not stay in that camp, because he or she was going to be killed.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand the use of the word "camp" in this context, it does not mean "camp" in the sense that it is usually used in the English language or an area where people can come and stay.  It means, rather more, a fortified area where a group of people are staying.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you agree with that?  I see Mr Mpshe shaking his head in agreement.

MR WILLS: Now, after this incident, you have been in jail in some time.  How do you feel about the incident?

M A NZIMANDE: I got disturbed, because it is a history to be in prison.

MR WILLS: What do you feel about the people who were victims to this incident?

M A NZIMANDE: I do not have anything against them, because they tried to reconcile.

MR WILLS: If the committee would just bear with me.  Yes, just one final issue.  You heard me questioning Mr Poswa at some length about the deceased persons and those persons who you were charged in respect of attempting to murder the two that were, you were charged with attempted murder.  There were nine deceased persons and two people who you were convicted for attempting to murder.  Do you recall that?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I remember.

MR WILLS: What, in your view, what political association did those people belong to?

M A NZIMANDE: They were IFP members.

MR WILLS: Now, also, Mr Poswa has indicated that whilst this was, as he described it, was going on, there were also women and children in the vicinity.  Is that correct?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, there were women staying there.

MR WILLS: And, to the best of your knowledge, were any of these women and children hurt in any way or attacked in any way?

M A NZIMANDE: They were not attacked.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nzimande, who was the ANC leader in the Gengeshe area?