Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: When I approached it was only Ninele and Ndaba that was standing together and there had been a policeman standing at a distance watching them.

MR LAX: If I may just interpose there, ma'am?
	These policemen that were standing at a distance watching, they weren't involved in the actual arrest of Ndaba or the apprehension of Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I believe that at that stage I did not know what the circumstances were or how Ninele had gotten there.  Only afterwards did I discover that the police helped him apparently to take the person from the pharmacy to C.R. Swart.

MR LAX: Why would they be standing at a distance watching if they were involved in the apprehension of a terrorist and they would have known that because Ninele would have been excited?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Ninele was excited when he saw me, he immediately walked to me with Charles Ndaba.

MR LAX: This is like an exciting event for them, now we've apprehended a terrorist in their minds, why would they stand at a distance?  They'd want to be part of this whole exercise?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No they weren't Chairperson.

MR LAX: But doesn't it strike you as strange that they were calmly standing back at a distance?  It's not the normal behaviour of a human being in that situation is it?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they know he was a terrorist?  They had just been asked to fetch someone from a pharmacy?

MR LAX: No, they apprehended him at a pharmacy with an askari.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood that they were asked to go help take him from the pharmacy to C.R. Swart Square?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: They were not part of the arrest, they were just called in after Ninele had arrested him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Fair enough I'll leave it at that.  Please continue Ms Poswa?

MS POSWA: Prior to this incident - I'm sorry I've just lost trend a bit here - did you know Ndaba prior to this incident?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I knew about him.

MS POSWA: But you did not know him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not personally know him.

MS POSWA: Okay and at that stage did you know anything about Operation Vula?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MS POSWA: At which stage were you informed about this operation?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The evening, that evening or the next day Botha informed us.

MS POSWA: In what context?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He informed us that Ndaba had told him.

MS POSWA: Now what - I'm asking in what context, what was happening, did he just burst out "Ndaba told me about Operation Vula" or what was happening when this information was divulged?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Botha informed us with the run of time as the matter developed.

MR LAX: Can I just be clear here?  It was on that very same day?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So that would have been the 7th July?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: And was it before you went to go and arrest Shabalala or before you went to the meeting with Shabalala and then ended up arresting in, was it part of your briefing?  I not sure.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, I think it was after the arrest of Shabalala when we returned to the safe house that Botha during the interrogation of Ndaba and later on it had become known to us.

MR LAX: It was definitely on that day that he told you about this whole operation?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Not in it's totality.  I think the next day more information had become known.

MR LAX: Thank you, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I get some more of this?  After you got to the safe house I understand from what you said Botha started interrogating Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He spoke to Ndaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Just him, Botha, nobody else?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson, as far as I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And sometime later he came out and told you something about Operation Vula?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Can we just get some clarification here Mr du Preez?  Mr Botha advised us that you interrogate a suspect and you debrief and informer.  You just told us that he interrogated Botha.  Are you using the term loosely or what exactly, which terminology should you have used?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I'm not sure what the question is.

MS POSWA: You have just told us that Mr Botha interrogated Mr Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not say interrogate I said questioned.  He had a conversation with him.

MS POSWA: My mistake.

MR LAX: Sorry, the confusion was created in the question that the Chairperson put to him about interrogation.  He spoke about speaking to the man, he said ...(indistinct).

MS POSWA: Thanks Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know this Ndaba was an informer?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Botha told us this Saturday morning at C.R. Swart.  Before that I did not know.

MS POSWA: Mr du Preez, can you just give us more information on the decision to eliminate Botha - I mean sorry, Ndaba and Shabalala?  What was discussed there?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: At which stage?  Are you talking about the day that they had been eliminated?

MS POSWA: On the day that he was to be eliminated.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Botha explained to me that Ndaba and Shabalala had become such a problem and he sketched out the whole situation surrounding the detentions and Ndaba's feeling that he wanted to return to the ANC and this led to the elimination or to the decision to eliminate.

MS POSWA: So you were part of the decision to eliminate?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I agreed with this.

MS POSWA: Now you said that you were keeping watch over Ndaba and Shabalala whilst they were at the safe house.  Would you agree with the fact that Shabalala was robust and aggressive?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I would say he was aggressive or he did not freely speak.

MS POSWA: Did he tell you about his concerns about Ndaba, the fact that he suspected that Ndaba was working with you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, the day I'd heard, I can't remember from whom, but I heard that such an allegation had been made.

MS POSWA: And what impressions over the time you are guarding Ndaba did you get about his general demeanour?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: About Ndaba?

MS POSWA: Yes, how did he come across?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He was completely comfortable, initially he was completely comfortable and Botha and himself had spoken.  Botha had spoken to him all the time and it was after Siphiwe Nyanda's arrest that I realised that a slight change had occurred in him, in his attitude.

MS POSWA: How did it change?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think he was nervous.

MS POSWA: Can you describe what you saw that caused you to believe he was nervous?

MS POSWA: Chairperson, as far as I can remember I did not speak to him a lot but the way in which he spoke and his attitude towards us, his body language was nervous.

MS POSWA: Okay, whilst we're on that point can we go to the arrest of Mr Nyanda?  You say that you were observing the house?

MS POSWA: Correct.

MS POSWA: And you followed him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Now you agree that Mr Nyanda had come or did you know that Mr Nyanda had come into the country clandestinely?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I accepted it to be like that.

MS POSWA: At that particular moment he was underground?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.