Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MOSES VELI LLALE: To mention all the groups, most of the groups that passed on that day most of them had pistols in their hands especially the group which I referred earlier on they had pistol in their hands but now I can't confirm this the AK and what because you will see some of them had something which they were hiding underneath but I cannot confirm what it was, but where from the position where I was I thought in my mind it was long rifles which I couldn't see what it was, AK or panga but you could see that it was long rifles which were hidden under their jackets or blankets.

MR TIPP: Now Mr Llale it is common cause that no action was taken by you or anyone else on the parapet or any of the other guards for that matter at Shell House against any of the groups that passed, either the group in Plein Street or the group in Klein Street tearing oup posters, no action was taken, why is that?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The briefing we got from our seniors now I will refer to, he is also late, Radu and Gary Kruser, was that we shall try by all means to restrain from shooting. So we shall try and control ourselves. Emotions should not be controlled by the different groups which were passing. We should know our objectives why we are there so we shall try by all means that you don't shoot unnecessarily.

MR TIPP: Now we know that at a certain point in time you in fact did shoot. I'd like you Mr Llale to take your time and tell the committee how it came about what, what led up to the main shooting incident?

MOSES VELI LLALE: To the committee I would like to express myself in a language that I understand better in when it come to this because I think at some stage I will have problems if I have to express myself in English.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale you will have to put on those earphones and then select the channel that is giving you Zulu. I am not quite sure what channel that is.

MR LAX: Channel 2 is Zulu.

MR LAX: Sorry channel 1.

MR LAX: Is English isn't it?

INTERPRETER: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Channel 4 we've now been told is Zulu sorry.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I do have channel 4.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale you must now listen for the interpreter not for me so don't look at me. Can you hear the interpreting into Zulu.
	Mr Llale I was asking you to please describe how it came about that you got involved in the main shooting. What led up to it. How you came to be at the spot where you finally shot?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I am not sure about the time I think it was quarter to eleven. I was coming from the toilets and I was deployed to remain on the parapet. And as I went to the parapet I heard some singing, I heard two shots. I think I heard some shots in the air they were coming from de Villiers Street. At that very same corner I saw Jagwa Molefe approaching that corner. As he looked back he called to me and said I must come and see, witness some scene and I proceeded to Jagwr and we got to the corner. We observed ... (intervention)

MR TIPP: We are finding it difficult to keep up with you at this pace and I do think it is hard on the Interpreters as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sir could you please lower your pace.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Should I start from scratch or should I just continue? Maybe you didn't get some of the names. Could you just indicate to me as to where I should start?

MR TIPP: The point where Mr Molefe called you and take the committee through it from there.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Jagwa Molefe called me. I ran towards the place where he was calling me. When I got to him he was showing me a group of people who had congregated there, they were from Wanderers Street and they were proceeding to de Villiers Street.
	As I lifted my head I saw that there were two groups. There was one group which was proceeding towards King George Street connecting to Shell House or going towards Shell House. We concentrated mainly on the group that was at de Villiers Street because they looked quite wild and violent as compared to the other group which was at King Georges Street.

MR TIPP: Was that the group that was coming down King George, was that the group that was coming from Noord Street towards de Villiers, is that the one you're referring to?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is the one.

MR TIPP: Try and be a bit slower than you even are at the moment.

MOSES VELI LLALE: As we were still standing there with Molefe just watching the group we saw one man amongst the group, amongst the marchers, who was wearing a red T-shirt and he had a AK-47 in his possession. And what surprised me even more was that there had been other groups of marchers which had gone past Shell House but we hadn't seen anything amiss with them and now this group there was this man with the red T-shirt who was displaying his firearm. That shocked me and Jagwa at the time was showing me the other people who had revolvers with them or shotguns.
	And this group came dancing until they came to an intersection of King George and de Villiers. As we were still watching, that is Jagwa and myself, we had been joined by Steve Moolman by then we saw some police just underneath the parapet that is where we were, they were approaching from underneath towards this group which had congregated at the intersection that I had referred to earlier on.

MR TIPP: How many policemen were there?

MOSES VELI LLALE: There were two of them.

MR TIPP: And what did you see them doing?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As they were going to these marchers they lifted their hands, as I am indicating they were trying to block them so that they couldn't go through King George Street.

MR TIPP: The witness indicates with both arms outstretched. Please continue Mr Llale.

MOSES VELI LLALE: As we were still watching the proceedings and the police there was this man, I don't know whether he was an Induna, he was addressing the crowd at some stage and they were calling theie war cries "usuthu". I don't know what he was saying to them but they kept on replying saying "usuthu". And the police were trying to block at some stage. I think this policeman was stabbed with an assegaai and he had to turn back and run towards the parapet.

MR TIPP: When you say the policeman ran back, in which direction did he run?

MOSES VELI LLALE: If I remember well he went back the same direction I think towards Plein Street. Because Plein and de Villiers are parallel to each other so he went back to Plain Street.

MR TIPP: What happened after this?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As we were still surprised as to what was going on we heard some gunfire which sounded like an automatic rifle and Jagwa threw me to the ground. He also fell on top of me, or both of us fell on to the ground. We were next to each other and I saw Jagwa standing and he also fired because he had an AK-47 with him and he was firing in the air.
	And there was so much noise this automatic rifle caused so much noise so I ran to the opposite direction from Jagwa's and as I was running I could hear a lot of gunfire. There was an exchange of gunfire now from below the parapet.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale the first shooting that you heard the automatic gunfire that you were talking about did you have any idea where that gunfire was directed?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I never saw the person who fired the gun but as I've already said that I saw a certain man who was wearing a red T-shirt who had an AK-47 with him. So to me I thought that it was coming from that person who was amongst the marchers.

MR TIPP: Tell the committee about your running away from where Mr Molefe was shooting, if you could take it up from there tell the committee what happened?