Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MR WAGENER: When you returned to Zimbabwe immediately after this operation, to whom did you report back?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: We reported back to Mancheck Sir.

MR WAGENER: Where was that?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: That was in Bulawayo.

MR WAGENER: Was that where this structure, the Regional Politico Military Committee as seated?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, they came to see us.

MR WAGENER: Who came to see you?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Mancheck.

MR WAGENER: And who else?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, it's Mancheck.

MR WAGENER: Sorry, I thought you said "they", that's why I'm asking the question.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Oh maybe it's my mistake, it's the one who came to see us.

MR WAGENER: Were you present when a report-back was made to him?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I was present.

MR WAGENER: What was reported back?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I mean everything was on the news Sir, the only thing was to thank us for the mission well done.

MR WAGENER: But isn't it correct that some of these mines only exploded weeks later?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, but the first mines.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  So you referred to, I think there were four incidents about on the 26th and the 27th of November, I think there were about four incidents.  You refer to those?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, the first mines which exploded.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what were those dates, Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I have it that the first two incidents took place on 26th November and another three took place the next day, the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mbuli, approximately what date did you lay those mines, taking into account that the first one was set off on the 26th of November?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja it was on - the first mines exploded on the 26th.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then now, how long before that were they actually laid?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: How long before that were they actually laid on the road?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: They were laid in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Of the 26th.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so it was the same night?  Okay, thank you.

MR WAGENER: The other group of six, did they report back in Zimbabwe the same time as your group of six?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, they followed later.

MR WAGENER: How much later?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I don't remember.  It should be after a week or so after we had arrived.

MR WAGENER: Were they in the country for about a week?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Sorry?

MR WAGENER: Were they in the country for about a week, laying their mines?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: They were in the country I think for two days, then they went to Zimbabwe, then there was another walking involved in Zimbabwe.

MR WAGENER: The two groups of six each, did they enter the country on the same day together?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes we entered together.

MR WAGENER: The same day?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now we know that two of these mines exploded only on the 12th of December, the one and the other on the 15th of December 85, we know that.  That is approximately two weeks after they were laid, will you accept that?

CHAIRPERSON: Even up to three weeks, the 15th to the 26th of November is closer to three weeks.

MR WAGENER: Ja.  Ja, even up to three weeks, will you accept that?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir, I will.

MR WAGENER: So, if I understand you correctly, these mines were lying there underground for more than two weeks before they were detonated by a vehicle going over them.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Does that mean that the road was not used by a vehicle for the same period, about two weeks?  How would you comment on that?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja in that one Sir, I will say maybe the detonation unit of the Government then, failed to discover those mines.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's asking you, the fact that a mine was only detonated - sorry was this mine unintentionally detonated, the one on the 15th?

MR WAGENER: Well that is the one that killed the van Eck family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it wasn't done by the ...

MR WAGENER: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: It was unintentionally detonated.  The fact that a mine was unintentionally detonated three weeks after it was laid, does that mean necessarily that that road was not used by a vehicle for three weeks?  In other words between the time the mine was laid and the mine went off three weeks later, it meant that another vehicle didn't use that road in that period?

MR WAGENER: Ja, I will say that Sir.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: It means it was not used until the other car detonated it.

MR WAGENER: And you also said a minute or so ago, that these specific mines, in other words mines that detonated 12 and 15 December, they were not found by the explosives or the mine searching personnel of the Defence Force.  Are you aware that they were looking for these mines on the roads in that area?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja because I mean it's an obvious case.  They will be looking for mines.

MR WAGENER: Ja.  Now why do you think were they unable to locate these mines not on a much earlier date?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I wouldn't know, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Isn't it obvious that they were not searching on these specific roads?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I may have a different answer for that one.

MR WAGENER: Well?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: It's true, they were not searching on these specific roads.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Well, I can say they've passed it when they checked, they didn't notice it.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure, I see it's half-past four nearly, I'm not sure what you intend doing this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: We'd like to do as much as possible.

MR WAGENER: Okay, can we continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Will you accept, Mr Mbuli, that this landmine campaign was a total failure?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: It was a total failure on what, Sir?

MR WAGENER: Well, the intended targets were not hit.  It's a known fact that 90% plus of the victims were civilians, innocent civilians.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I mean it's my first time to see those statistics from you Sir, of that no, there were 24 people, civilians, who died and one in the Security Forces.

MR WAGENER: Ja.  Do you dispute that?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I mean, it's what I'm saying that no, it's for the first time Sir to hear those statistics.

MR WAGENER: Well, will you accept that your President Mr Tambo, became concerned that this campaign, to a large extent, only targeted innocent civilians and therefore he called it off?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: What I know that no, the late President, Oliver Tambo, he did mention that no, this landmine campaign must stop, the majority becomes civilians, I mean that was the - I will say that was the news from the newspaper, that was the bulletin from the newspapers, that was the only information - that was the only source of information ...(indistinct).  Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: For what it's worth, Mr Chairman, I'm reading from page 327 of your bundle, in the left-hand column, the fourth paragraph.  In other words, the high echelon, or the Command Structure of the ANC realised that the targets intended to be hit, were not hit, namely the military, during the course of your - operations like yours.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: But in our operation, what I know, that I successfully operated in that particular area.  An order which I was given, I fulfilled them.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  No I accept that what you say is you followed orders, I accept that, but that your mission was a failure in terms of ANC policy and general instructions.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Is that a question?

MR WAGENER: Yes, that was what I put to you, do you want to comment?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: That the ANC said it was a failure?

MR WAGENER: Ja.  Anyway, if you don't want to - your unit of six,

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir?