Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MR LAX: And you indicated that it ended in December 1993, do you see that there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was not sure at the time but I think it was December 1996, 1993 I beg your pardon.

MR LAX: That was when the first call for the cessation of the armed struggle was made.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Correct Sir.

MR LAX: And then a further call was made on the 16th and 17th of January, after the UNITRA Conference, do you confirm that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That's correct Sir.

MR LAX: Now when did you become aware of these things?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I got to know them later on.  I can't remember whether it was after the elections or before the elections.

MR LAX: And how did you come to know about them?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I used to meet with the other comrades in Mdantsane.

MR LAX: Now, your evidence is that you didn't know the armed struggle had terminated at the time all these events happened?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: At the time I didn't have that type of a message, I didn't get that type of a message from my commander.

MR LAX: And at the time that the incidents, the last incident which occurred towards the end of March that year, that was 1994, you still hadn't known that, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was not yet told.

MR LAX: Did you carry any other operations out or join any other operational activities after these incidents you've referred to us?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I never continued.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to carry on the armed struggle then because you didn't know that it had ceased?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I used to take all the orders, I used obey all the orders that were given to me.

MR LAX: Well what steps did you take to find out what your next orders might be?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I never took any steps to that effect.  I used to wait for the instructions, I used to wait for orders.

MR LAX: Is it not correct that you didn't go back to your base, you went home, you were in hiding at home?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: After the last attack, as I left with the late Luvuyo leaving for the Transkei for the report back and we were told that all the comrades were arrested, we proceeded to Tsomo.  Then after the Good Friday, the Easters had passed, Easter holidays had passed, we went back to Mdantsane.

MR LAX: So you never tried to make any other contract with your fellow cadres or other commanders or other operatives of APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: There were no people that I could report to them except the person who was already arrested, the one who gave me the instructions.

MR LAX: I'll leave it at that, thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Can I ask Mr Ncamazana, for clarification on one of the responses you have given to a question by my colleague here.  He was asking you, by the end of March, that is when the last incident occurred, were you aware that the armed struggle had terminated and your response to that, according to my notes, was that "I was not yet told".  Are you implying that someone was supposed to come and tell you at some point?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It's my commander who had the authority to tell me that, not to hear what was being said by the media and the radios and the newspapers.

ADV SANDI: Just to cap over on that particular point, during all this time you were involved in these activitites, was it part of your understanding that at some point you will be told that the armed struggle has been called off?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I wouldn't know that, that I would be told or not.

ADV SANDI: That is not very clear to me.  You were supposed to be involved in these activities until I suppose something happens, until what happened?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Until the mission was accomplished, as  we were attacking the people we were trying to accomplish the mission.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ncamazana.

MR LAX: Chairperson, I just realised I've missed out the next part of that evidence from his trial.
	You were then asked from that extract when you returned to East London and you said the reason you went back to East London was because the armed struggle had been suspended, that was before any of these incidents took place.  That was your evidence there.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've already told you that what I was saying during the trial in East London, it was was not true, it was not the truth.  What I was trying to do was to protect my commander so that I could appear not guilty.

MR LAX: You see this reason you've given us about protecting your commander, it would make sence if the police didn't know anything about your commander but the fact of the matter is they knew everything about your commander so what was there to protect?  They already had the information, it's clear from your
confessions they had the information.  They knew everything about your unit and your commander, what were you trying to protect?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because if I testified about my commander the police would arrest him.  He would also be one of the acccused as they wanted me to state clearly that he's the one who gave me instructions but I refused to do so.

MR LAX: The fact is that they knew already that he'd given you the instructions, you said as much in your confessions.  And it is plain from the first trial that that was so.  It may well be that they were looking for him because he'd left by the time you'd got back to Butterworth, you couldn't find him so he probably went into hiding as well.  Do you see what I'm saying?  The fact of the matter is the game was over before you were even arrested.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: After the last attack, on our retreat, I arrived there with him already arrested and also other comrades at the base and those who stayed in town and Africa Tjobane.

MR LAX: That's precisely my point, so how could you protect him if he'd already been arrested?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He was not arrested for those things he instructed us to do.

MR LAX: We'll just leave it at that, thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.