Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ROLAND PETROS: It wasn't my decision, it was the community'sdecision in relation to the self-protection unit, because I wasthe person who found the deceased first I was the person who performedthis act.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes Mr Chairman I do have questions, thankyou.  Mr Petros you testified about the relationship between yourselfand Senator Bloem, do you remember that?  Sorry?  You testifiedabout you relationship with Senator Bloem?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now I just want to know from you, how oftenwere you with Senator Bloem?

ROLAND PETROS: I was often with Senator Bloem, on and off. Most of the time I drove the car and he was a passenger in thecar with me.

<UNKNOWN>: You testified that you were a member of theANC Youth, was he a leader or a combat in the ANC Youth League?

ROLAND PETROS: He was a leader of ANC as well, actually howcan I say, was involved in the activities of the ANC as well aswith the community.  He was involved in the activities of theANC Youth League as well with the community.  So I cannot explainto you was he a member of the Youth League, I can say yes he was,I can say no but you could say he was a member.

<UNKNOWN>: Sorry Mr Petros you are by the way entitledto put on the earphones to get the Afrikaans translation.

ROLAND PETROS: Oh sure, sure.

<UNKNOWN>: Did the ANC Youth League not have it's leader?

ROLAND PETROS: The ANC Youth did have its own leader, namelyPetros Machaba Ntulu.

<UNKNOWN>: Now between Petros Machaba Ntulu and SenatorBloem to whom were you closely related, politically?

ROLAND PETROS: Both of them.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you take an instruction from SenatorBloem, political instruction?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you equally take a political instructionfrom Ntulu Machaba?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now for how long were you a member of the ANCYouth League before the date of committing this crime?

ROLAND PETROS: I joined in 1989 as a card-carrying member,but before that I had been involved in the ANC activities forquite a long time, youth activities.  I grew up in ANC circlesand I was well acquainted with the activities.  In other wordsbefore I joined in 1989 as a card-carrying member, even beforethat I had been involved in their youth activities.

<UNKNOWN>: You are responding to my question I get theimpression that you were at a certain stage an honourary sympathiserof the ANC and later on you became a member, am I correct?

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: What I want to know from you, for how longwere you a member of the ANC, before the commission of this crime,actual member?

ROLAND PETROS: Since 1989.

<UNKNOWN>: You testified that an instruction was givenat the meeting that was held that the deceased is to be removedor perhaps to be eliminated?

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Now who gave that instruction or that command?

ROLAND PETROS: I can't remember exactly who gave the instructionbut what I can remember is that the instruction came from thecommunity at large.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros is it really possible that the wholecommunity gathered at a stadium or any other venue to give instructionsto other members of the community, was there no leader, a chairmanof that nature?

ROLAND PETROS: It had been reported to us that there wasa certain specific person but I can't remember his name.

<UNKNOWN>: It was in any case a formal ANC meeting notso?

ROLAND PETROS: yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now who was chairing that meeting?

ROLAND PETROS: I can't remember exactly.

<UNKNOWN>: Who opened the meeting?

ROLAND PETROS: I think, if I remember correctly, one Biza.

<UNKNOWN>: Biza who?

ROLAND PETROS: At that stage we just used code names so Iknew most of the members just by their code names.

<UNKNOWN>: So Biza was his code name?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that was his code name.

<UNKNOWN>: I am going to refer you to your supplementaryaffidavit, I know you don't have it but I'll read to you whatyou said and ask a question therefrom.  Members of the Committeethat will be on page 3 of the handwritten supplementary affidavit,that will be page 27 according to indexing, page 27 the thirdparagraph. I will read this out to you because you don't haveit.  You stated that,
  "The gang ultimately took on a political character as wasevidenced by a submission made by the leader of the gang nameDiwiti George Ramasimong who was a complainant in a case heldat Kroonstad, when he admitted....."
now this is where my question comes,
  "....when he admitted under cross-examination that he andthe gang had become members of the IFP in 1990 and that he hadinstructions to oppose the ANC".
Do you remember you said that in your affidavit?

ROLAND PETROS: I can't remember that very well because itwas a long time ago and at that stage my life was very confused.

<UNKNOWN>: If you wish I can let the affidavit be shownto you so that you recollect what you said.  With the Chairman'sindulgence.

<UNKNOWN>: I want to know is it himself that confessesthis?

<UNKNOWN>: Ja, according to that statement you said hesaid that in court, in the case wherein he was a complainant. This was the affidavit that was taken from you not very longago by your legal representative on a Saturday this year.

ROLAND PETROS: Oh yes, yes I was a bit confused, I beg yourpardon.  I was a bit confused.  That is correct, yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you yourself have any information as towhat the accused said to the Court, his connection with the IFP?

ROLAND PETROS: We did not believe that this person was amember of the IFP I think he just wanted to hide behind the IFPbut as far as I am concerned he did say that, that he had beenappointed by the IFP to crush all opposition.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he perhaps tell you further or did youknow as to who actually made them, the deceased and the gang,to oppose the ANC?

ROLAND PETROS: No, no, I don't know who gave them those instructionsbut I do know of what you have just mentioned.  I don't know whogave them those instructions, but I do know that they were givensuch instructions or that he'd said that he was so instructed.

<UNKNOWN>: Let's go back again to the issue of, the issuewhere the meeting was held, where you testified that "I wasrequested by the community to kill the deceased".  I stillhave a bit of a problem there as to how was this order, if itwas an order or an instruction given.

ROLAND PETROS: The order was given by means of a messagefrom an informer.  (The Interpreter requested the witness to pleasespeak up it is difficult to interpret).

<UNKNOWN>: The order was given by an informer, is thatwhat you are saying?  Who gave the order or instruction that thedeceased, Diwiti should be eliminated or killed?

ROLAND PETROS: As I said the community came to this conclusionitself and they decided to request us and the self-defence unitto eliminate this person and to remove him from society.  We asthe self-protection unit were told by an informer that the communityhad taken this decision.

<UNKNOWN>: Was SDU or wing or part of the ANC Youth League?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes it was the self-defence unit.

<UNKNOWN>: Now was this meeting, was it a meeting of theANC Youth League or was it a meeting of the SDU's?

ROLAND PETROS: It was a meeting of the SDU.

<UNKNOWN>: How many members of SDU were at that meeting?

ROLAND PETROS: I can't remember exactly.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros I want you to - sorry to interruptyou, what meeting are you referring to I just want to satisfymyself we are talking about one and the same meeting here?  Whatmeeting are you referring to Mr Petros?

ROLAND PETROS: Sir may I ask which particular meeting itis that you want to know about.  I just recall one meeting thatwe had, I can just recall one meeting in connection with this.

<UNKNOWN>: The meeting is the meeting whereat a decisionwas taken that Diwiti must be killed, where you testified that,"I had been requested by the community".

ROLAND PETROS: Yes it is the same meeting that I am referringto.