Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR RAMAWELE: And who of the members were supposed to go and do the infiltration?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can remember, if this is the Chesterville incident, then it was Simon Radebe, Shosha and another black lady, I've forgotten her name, I think Aubrey Magade and other people who I can't remember immediately, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And according to you they did make the infiltration?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: They came back to report that it was successful?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, I would not say that they returned and said that it was a success, they returned and if I can remember correctly, they said to Willie that they find it difficult to gain the people's confidence because they feel a little bit suspect and they - and he asked if there isn't a weapon of the east block origin that they can show to these people to put them more at their ease, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Is it your evidence that the members did not report that the infiltration was a success?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Did they want the weapon to demonstrate their supposed links with the ANC?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And after that, it is then that Mr Nortje then gave the AK47 to Radebe?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Where was Mr de Kock at that time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I would not know, Sir, but he was definitely not at the scene with us.

MR RAMAWELE: So again when the weapon was given to Radebe, for them to go back to the township, Mr de Kock according to you wasn't there?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: It seems to me that Mr de Kock came to Durban on that particular day to come and do nothing.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I would not be able to answer this, maybe you have to ask him yourself, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: I'm saying so because he knew that the situation was volatile, police officers were killed, when a decision is taken to infiltrate he is not there, when a decision is taken again to give a weapon to some members to go back, again he's not there.  That's why I'm saying so.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I believe that you have to ask Mr de Kock that question himself, I cannot answer that, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: But Mr de Kock was truly committed to his cause of eliminating the opponents, not so?  You know it.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Now you say that they went into the - now when the weapon was given to Radebe, did you - are you saying that Radebe and the other members went into Chesterville and you also followed suit?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, we did not follow them, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: I see.  So Radebe actually, he went to Chesterville with the weapon?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Was he with the very same members he was when he was going to make the infiltration?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: After he had gone, where did he go?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: From there we moved away and we waited for them under a bridge, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: The weapon was given at the police station, at CR Swart Police Station, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Where was it given?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It was just outside Chesterville we had handed it over.

MR RAMAWELE: So when Mr Radebe came to say "The people do not believe us", where were you at that stage?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I was together with Mr Nortje in the vehicle that was waiting outside Chesterville, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Was it at the bridge?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson, it was at a graveyard.

MR RAMAWELE: And after Mr Radebe had gone back with the firearm, where did you wait?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Then we moved, we went to a bridge and we waited for them at the bridge, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So what you are saying is that the first time when they went to do the infiltration you were at the graveyard, when they came back you went to the bridge?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Initially why did you wait at the graveyard?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I was not in command of this operation, it was Willie Nortje and I also do not know that area of Chesterville.

MR RAMAWELE: You never asked why you were supposed to wait at the graveyard?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And later on did you know why you had to wait at the bridge?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I think that they decided that we should move, that we shouldn't be staying at the same place for too long.  This is what I assume, I don't know what the real reason is.  Mr Nortje would be able to provide this reason much better, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Now after - according to you, after Radebe had - if Radebe was able to successfully convince the UDF that he was a member of the ANC, what would he have done, Mr Radebe?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I do not know.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, I don't follow the question.

MR RAMAWELE: Are you - pardon, what is your answer?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I do not know what he would have done, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So you are saying the situation in Durban is volatile, police officers are killed, a police officer from Vlakplaas goes to Chesterville to infiltrate the UDF and if he succeeds you don't know what he'll do?  Is that what you're saying?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Does it make sense under those political conditions at that time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairperson, I was not at the scene where Mr Radebe had been, so I cannot answer on behalf of him, I cannot speculate what he would have done if he had been successful with these actions.

MR RAMAWELE: In other words what you are saying is that it is possible that if Mr Radebe succeeded in convincing the people that he was a member of the UDF, he could simply have come back to CR Swart and say "I succeeded", without arresting them, doing anything?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I do not know, I would not be able to answer this.

MR RAMAWELE: I put it to you that it is highly improbable that under those conditions, if what you are saying is the truth, that Radebe would simply just have done the infiltration.  I put it to you that that is highly improbable.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: If I have to speculate then I would say that if Radebe could infiltrate there, then he would have tried to identify people, then he would have tried to obtain names and addresses, the sort of normal infiltration, and if there had been someone who would have been worth the effort, then he would have tried to arrest this person and he would have brought this person back for questioning, Chairperson, but this is merely speculation on my behalf.

MR RAMAWELE: And where was Geoff Bosigo at that time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I do not know, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you remember Geoff Bosigo being part of the group that waited at the bridge?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I cannot remember that Geoff Bosigo was present there, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you remember Geoff Bosigo having come to Durban at that time, during those times?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Now what were you supposed to do at the bridge?  You are waiting at the bridge, what are you supposed to do?