Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: You were going to round off.... (some technical recording interruption).. Well maybe then let us - you are a marathon runner, maybe let's go for tea and we'll have to have a very short tea and may be come back at half past.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I'll ask Glen Goosen who is intending now to I think wrap up things.  But there may be one or two questions from the panel.  Alex Boraine.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson, just one quick question, in the debate just before the recess for tea, we were talking about there may have been misinterpretations and that would explain some of the deeds that were committed.  I want to ask you, is it your view that there may have been some security police who acted not because they misunderstood but mala fides?

ADRIAAN VLOK: Yes it's possible.

UNKNOWN: It's quite a serious question because you see if people apply for amnesty, and you're not commenting on any of that, and they are acting mala fides this may influence and affect their application and I just wanted to get it on record that it may be that one of the reasons for some of the atrocities committed was on the basis or mala fides.

ADRIAAN VLOK: It may have happened like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any other - Ilan lax.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, one of the striking features of some of the evidence we heard last week was the sense that in essence there was a total split in the vision if you like in perspective between those people in control of the security apparatus and the operatives who essentially saw anybody who was trying to make the country ungovernable, who was fighting their system as not being a citizen, as not being a person who had any real rights so to speak.  These were Soviet dominated puppets and the one person who most succinctly captured that essence was Craig Williamson and I must say that in my time as a national serviceman, when we had propaganda lectures that is precisely the line that we were given, precisely the line, this is the enemy, these are not our people, these are foreign invaders wanting to take over the country and I want to suggest to you that that's one of the fundamental reasons why the experience that the Archbishop spoke about as being the experience of the majority happened.
 So on the one hand there's this juncture, there's this experience, this outlook of the people you are fighting or you were fighting at that time, were not South Africans and yet on the other hand you purported to act on behalf of the majority of the people of the country and by creating this enemy that wasn't human, that wasn't - that's how a lot of these atrocities took place.  They didn't regard them as people, they didn't regard them as citizens, they did not regard them as anybody they had a duty to protect or to respect or to provide dignity or humanity to.

ADRIAAN VLOK: I'd like to comment on that because I agree with Commissioner Lax. That is what happened.  There was indoctrination, there was propaganda, propaganda waged from our side and directed at national servicemen and amongst the police.  We made many speeches, we as politicians and many people made speeches in that regard, but the correct perspective is also this.   There wasn't only indoctrination and propaganda from the one side, there was also the same from the other side, propaganda against the police.  So many of your fellow South Africans had been indoctrinated to hate the police and to see them as the enemy and that is where we stand today, and I think we must acknowledge that this is what happened and that it's unfortunate that it happened and that it should become part of history and we shouldn't repeat this in future.

MR LAX: Just one follow-up that I wanted to put to you, that lessons characterises that split.  We had a seven day war hearing on Tuesday, the so called Seven Day War in Pietermaritzburg an event hearing where we heard evidence and submissions from the defence force personnel involved,the police personnel involved and so on.  Just briefly to give you a background, that was the situation that took place in March 1990 in the greater Pietermaritzburg area, primarily in the African areas on the perimeter of the established Pietermaritzburg, Edendale valley area, roughly between 20 and 40 thousand people became refugees as a result of that ten day episode and there was a hugh amount of money donated for funds to try and help those people afterwards, and I think you may have been involved in that at that time.  The crucial issue I'm getting to is the person who was in charge of the police in that jurisdiction at that time, when he'd finished his submission I asked him a question and I said to him look if this had been a white suburb and not a black suburb, it surely wouldn't have happened that way, you would have mobilised 3 SAI, you would have mobilised every possible troop around, helicopters, whatever, it wouldn't have happened.  In the end he had to admit that that was so and that's the disjuncture I'm talking about.  The fact that it was a black area meant that black on black violence could happen and they did the minimal amount necessary.  Had it been a white area it would have been a completely different response, and he conceded that.  Any comments from you because it was at that time?

ADRIAAN VLOK: As Commissioner Lax put it, that is the way it is and I will accept that he conceded that or this person conceded that point.  But form our side there were many cases on which many people exerted great pressure on us and said that we weren't protecting them in their white areas, so I want to say that it cut both ways, but I would concede, I would readily concede that from the police side we did not do enough to protect the black civilians in our country.  I said that in my submission, in many cases we couldn't even go into their areas.  It's one of the things which I said, which I apologised for and said I am sorry that I hadn't protected people properly and I included all South Africans when I said that.  So that kind of thing is possible, yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa.