Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   No, they didn't tell us about the lawyer.  I went to the Democratic Party to Reg Mkhize.  He was also surprised because he's the one who opened the case.  He didn't understand why it could be over since he didn't even go to court.  And then they told me that I have a right to go and see the prosecutor and ask him, or even open a new case. Mrs Ndlovu, how is she involved in this matter?     ---   She's the stepmother.  They were helping us in some other way, because it was not easy to get in and find the body of my dead son, so they used to contact us and tell us we can come and look somewhere else.

DR MAGWAZA: Do you know this stepmother?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know the name.

DR MAGWAZA: Do you know the person?

WITNESS:   No, I don't even know the person.

DR MAGWAZA: It means you haven't found your son up to now, and you don't know where he is at the moment.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.  I looked for his corpse about three years.  I couldn't find him.  On the fourth one I just stopped.  Last year on April I went to the human rights lawyers to open the case, because his child is asking, and he also knows that his father was Thulani, and he is asking where is his father.  I used to lie to the son and say he is going to Durban ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 3) ... which can assist me.

DR MAGWAZA: Who is this person, this lawyer who told you of this?  Do you know his name?  Are they in 'Maritzburg?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are here in Pietermaritzburg, but their card is at home.

DR MAGWAZA: Which means that your wish or request is that to find out whether Thulani is still alive or dead?

WITNESS:   My request is for - I would like to ask you to go and ask Mr Ndlovu as to what happened to my son, because he should have killed my son and I was going to go and collect the corpse and bury it.

DR MAGWAZA: We'll try and investigate that.

WITNESS:   And secondly, something that hurt me the most, it's because he's refusing that he did kill him.  Even myself I don't want to see Ndlovu alive.  I would like to ask the Commission to try that he must be taken and to be put in a place where I will never see him in my life, because my heart is painful and I don't want to take the law into my hands.  He must be put in gaol, and he will come out at the day Thulani will come and see him.

DR MAGWAZA: Is there any other thing that you would like to say?

WITNESS:   We have been harassed and I am not feeling well at all.  I have got a heart attack, I have got eye problems.  I also have the BP, high blood pressure, because of all this harassment, because of Mr Ndlovu's deeds.

DR MAGWAZA: Did you ever went to see a doctor?

WITNESS:   I used to go to a doctor who is somewhere near the station.  I used to go to him because when I go to hospital they couldn't help me.  Dr Fault used to help me, because he could ask me what's my problem and I will explain to him.  We have all been harassed at home.

DR MAGWAZA: Among your children are there some - are they all well?

WITNESS:   His brothers are also not well at the moment.  They are also troubled by the disappearance of their brother, as I am saying even at school they are not doing well.  They are trying to go and continue studying, but it's not so easy.  They couldn't even pass their matric.  I think they are troubled in their spirits because of this.  I don't know whatever it is, whatever that they need that we can buy.  If there something that we need to buy and we don't have the money we start to think and remember Thulani, because he's the one who was maybe going to help us.

DR MAGWAZA: We will try to sort of like take your requests and wishes to the people we are responsible to, and they will see what they can do for you.  We know it's very hard and tough for you to stay not knowing what was happened to your child, and not knowing where he has been buried, not even knowing where the bones are.

WITNESS:   Thank you very much.

DR MAGWAZA: There is only one question.  Since you are not well did you ever try to ask a doctor to write you letter so that you can get some pension?

WITNESS:   No.

DR MAGWAZA: But did it ever come to your mind that might bring some help to you?

WITNESS:   Yes.

DR MAGWAZA: Maybe when you come out of this place you'd better try and sort of try to go to a social worker who might advise you as to how you can be helped to get some pension fund.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Mbanjwa, it is a terrible thing for a parent to have suffered the loss of their child, and it's even more terrible when that parent does not know absolutely for sure whether their child is in fact alive or not.  It must make it even harder for you to bear.  As I have said before, it has so often been the women of this country who have suffered most during the past 30 years of our history, and you are one of those women.
You have also told us something about what was happening in the Taylors Halt area and the Khaluzi area at the time, and that is important for us in drafting our report which we have to give to the Government.  You have gone to great lengths to try and find your son.  You have looked for him for three years, and we cannot promise you that we will be successful in finding your son.  We will certainly investigate whether it was Mr Ndlovu who killed your son, so that if this is the case that he can be prosecuted.  
And, as my colleague Dr Magwaza has said, that if you feel that you need other assistance, psychological assistance, so that you can come to terms with your son's disappearance, you must not hesitate to contact the Commission.
We thank you very much for coming to us and telling us your sad story.  We extend our sympathy to you, and we wish you courage as you leave us today.  Thank you very much indeed, and to your son who is with you.  We also wish him courage and strength.  Thank you very much.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... to us today from Imbali, here in 'Maritzburg, and you have come to tell us the story about the death of your husband, Fabeni Philemon Ngcobo, and the assault upon your son and the shooting of your grandson.  Before you tell us that sad story please can you stand so that you can take the oath.

SBONGILE NGCOBO: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: I see that you have somebody with you on the stage.  It looks like a relative of yours.

WITNESS:   It's Mrs Gabela.  She's my neighbour.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... here to accompany you today.  You will be talking to us.

WITNESS:   No, she has accompanied me.

MR LYSTER: I am going to ask my colleague, Mr Lax, to assist you with your evidence.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Good afternoon, Mrs Ngcobo.  Welcome.

WITNESS:   Good afternoon.

MR LAX: I am pleased to see that you have such good friends that can accompany you on such a hard mission.

WITNESS:   I also thank you.

MR LAX: Before we start if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about your family.

WITNESS:   I have seven children.  I am the eighth one.  My husband - when my husband was still alive.  Then I have five grandchildren.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... still live with you?

WITNESS:   All my grandchildren are staying with me because their mothers got married.  Then two girls are still staying with me.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Of your children how many were girls and how many were boys?  Just so we can get a picture.

WITNESS:  I have five girls, two boys.  Then amongst the grandchildren I have four grandsons and one granddaughter. Now, there are three different incidents that you are going to tell us about.  The first is the sad death of your husband, which happened on the 17th of May 1990.  Now, is it correct that your husband was born on the 23rd of August 1931?   ---   That is correct.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... to tell us about the - as much as you know about what happened.

WITNESS:   Not 1941.  He was born in 1932, in August on the 18th.