Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So we may use this on the record as an indication that there was interference as you say from either the State President or Minister that resulted in direct consequences in regard to the justice process?
 This is one instance?

UNKNOWN: I was instructed that a man that I had opposed bail to earlier in the morning, was to be released on R50-00 bail.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In other words Ngxobongwana was given status not only by what we might term foot soldiers, but by men at the top as well?

UNKNOWN: Obviously.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Flip du Toit, Captain Flip du Toit, you mention in paragraph 11 that Flip du Toit carried a torch for the vigilante leaders in Crossroads.
 And you further mentioned that you understood that he was aware of the people's courts and the kinds of things that they did in people's courts?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't think I am saying that.  What I am saying is that in discussions with Captain Du Toit it was clear that he was sympathetic towards elements within Crossroads.  That he carried a torch for them, that they should be treated differently to the other perpetrators of violence.
 He was unable ever to give us any information of any value.  We however, conveyed everything that we had, to him.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What I will take just to take my own questioning on your testimony, what I am taking from this statement is that according to yourself, the Minister or State President, and people like Captain Du Toit interfered not only with your investigation, but also with the judicial process, this is what your statement suggests?

UNKNOWN: There was interference.  I think it was a mistake that bail was granted to the accused, it was our evidence that he should not be granted bail.
 The Senior Public Prosecutor and everyone is in agreement with our evidence that was then overturned.  It did not necessarily affect the ultimate investigation of the case, however, it was a limited interference at that point.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now, you are losing me now.  I am not sure what you mean.  I mean if the Minister or State President intervenes and says release this man on bail, implicitly he is on our side, I mean suggesting that he is on their side, how ...

UNKNOWN: Yes, but I don't know if one could say that that is necessarily interfering with the investigation.  Investigations could still have carried on.
 I think it might be too strong, you might be putting it a little bit too strong.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But you see the thing is investigations lead to arrests and to trial and to justice, now if there is interference from the top of that process, of the end process which is justice, surely there is interference with the investigation, isn't there?

UNKNOWN: But the interference was limited, it did not prevent - there was no prevention, I was not told to stop the investigation.
 My instruction was merely to release the man on bail and I was brought under the clear impression that, look, you know, you are making a bit of an ass of yourself.  This is not a people's court, this is a tribal court.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So tell us how much further did you go with the investigation?

UNKNOWN: Well, unfortunately I was transferred shortly afterwards.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I will pass you on to the Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions, Dumisa?  Mr Ntsebeza?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Director Knipe.  I must precede my questions by saying that I appreciate the courage with which you obviously had to write your statement and much also more, that you were prepared to come and testify in this proceedings in the manner in which you have done.
 I would like to look at the period that you were assigned to be at Guguletu.  Now, you said you came here in June 1986?  What time did you come to Guguletu?

UNKNOWN: It was towards the end of June, it was following the large scale attack upon the KTC squatter camp, it was probably a week to ten days after that attack had occurred.  I would imagine from about the 25th to the end of the month.

MR NTSEBEZA: And in terms of your statement you had been assigned to investigate murders and other violence that occurred in Guguletu during 1986?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: In terms of testimony that we have heard here the violence over the three days in early June to which you have referred just now, fell within the ambit of your investigations?

UNKNOWN: Quite correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, maybe before we look at that period, because I would want to ask questions surrounding the period of that particular form of violence, is it so that during 1986 the state of unrest in the country was such that there were what we now know as Joint Security Management Systems that were put into place as part of the National Security Management System?

UNKNOWN: I know that now, I was unaware of that then.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is your evidence that you were not aware that for instance at Mannenberg, there was a Joint Operation Centre?

UNKNOWN: There was a Joint Operation Centre but I was not aware and privy to how far these things went.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, at Guguletu in what way did you relate to the Joint Operation Centre at Mannenberg?

UNKNOWN: We would often solicit their help when we went out to make arrests, that they would provide a cordoned protection for the Detectives that would make arrests.
 Many of the people's courts that we raided were very large gatherings and we made use of extra manpower.  There was also a lot of interaction between the investigators and the people at Mannenberg, re obtaining statements etc, etc.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were there any meetings that you attended at which there were other units of the Security Forces at Mannenberg?

UNKNOWN: Not that I can recall.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you not aware at the time that there was a Group 40 from the SADF, and the South African Railway Police under Major Ludolf and the unrest unit under Major Odendaal which were part and parcel of the Joint Operational Centre at Mannenberg?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  I was aware that there was a combined armed force from different security establishments operating in Guguletu and as I've tried to explain, we obtained as far as possible statements pertaining to various incidents which we investigated, from various members of these different elements.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you became aware that part and parcel of the reason behind this Joint Operational Structures was because there was a view that the unrest situation in the country had reached a stage where ordinary methods of dealing with crime, were not adequate.

UNKNOWN: I think the legislation also clearly put it that way.

MR NTSEBEZA: Indeed, the state of emergency that had enveloped the country which became complete in June 1986, was speaking to that state of unrest.

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: And did you know at the time that the JMC structures in the Western Province were in fact part and parcel of a whole network of such JMC structures through out the country?

UNKNOWN: I honestly don't think I was fully aware of that, no.  As I say my ambit was to, I am an investigator.
 I was not part and parcel of that strategy.

MR NTSEBEZA: But ...

UNKNOWN: But that there was an Operational Headquarters at Mannenberg, I was fully conversant with that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Were you aware that there was a Joint Security Management System which was headed by Minister Adriaan Vlok?

UNKNOWN: Again I am not sure if I was aware of it then, or I subsequently became aware of it.  I am aware of such a structure, but to be perfectly honest with you to say I was aware of it then, or subsequently I can't say.  I cannot recall.