Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR TIPP: Let me try to rephrase it Judge.
	Mr Ngobese, I'm going to take it back one or two steps please, if you'll follow me.  You've told us already that as you left Park Station moving eastward along Noord Street there were groups ahead of you, did I follow you correctly?

MR NGOBESE: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Those groups ahead of you turned right into King George Street?

MR NGOBESE: That is true.

MR TIPP: You've told us, if I heard you correctly, that there were only a few metres between once group and the next?

MR NGOBESE: Between my Induna and myself there would have been a few metres.

MR TIPP: That I recall, you said there were about three metres but my recollection is that you had said earlier that there were only a few metres between the groups themselves, between one group and the next.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Perhaps we can clear it up by asking: "How far behind the other group were you, your group"?

MR NGOBESE: It's not easy to estimate the exact metres, you will listed to your own Induna.  Of course following the other group, maybe it could have been seven to ten metres but your concentration will be based on your Induna, your own Induna.  Anything other than that you are not bothered about.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What the attorney wants to establish is that when you were at Park Station the Induna would allocated himself a group that he will lead, are you with me?

MR NGOBESE: ...[inaudible]

JUDGE NGCOBO: Now your group that you belonged to was led by Kynele, now you could see the next group or the group that you are following.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, you could definitely see the next group.

JUDGE NGCOBO: You saw that group until when?

MR NGOBESE: The group that we were following, we were walking along the street, we saw that group taking a corner and after that I never saw it anymore.   Not that I never saw it anymore, but I wasn't bothered about that group, I knew very well that we were following that group although it took a turn.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But could you still see it?

MR NGOBESE: It's a bit difficult there because seeing that group - you see, when you are following a group as I told you that we're behind, seeing that group, I don't recall much because I wasn't bothered much about that group because I knew we were just following that group.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Ngobese, you are still under oath.

AMOS NGOBESE: (s.u.o.)

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I'm not going to dwell on this point but I just want to round it up.  You said in your evidence that when you turned from Noord Street into King George Street you saw groups involving hundreds of people moving ahead of you, is that correct?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, they were always ahead of us.

MR TIPP: You've also said that you expected that you and your group would move down King George Street to Plein Street and then to turn away in order to move towards Library Gardens?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct.

MR TIPP: Is that what happened to the groups in front of you, did they proceed all the way down King George Street across de Villiers Street and into Plein Street and then turn away?

MR NGOBESE: I think that's what happened.

MR TIPP: Did you see that happening?  Mr Ngobese, let me make it clear, I'm not trying to trick you into anything, I'm not trying to remember what you can't remember, but you saw people ahead of you, all I want to do and I'm asking for the last time, can you tell us what became of them?

MR NGOBESE: I did not see anything happening to them.

MR TIPP: I'm afraid that that's an unclear answer, does that mean that you saw them carry on all the way down King George Street to Plein Street without anything happening to them?

MR NGOBESE: If I were to explain that, when we turned into King George I thought we were following them as to whether they proceeded in King George and what happened to them I don't know, but I thought we were following them.

MR TIPP: You said in your evidence that they were ahead of you and that you saw people ahead of you, is that correct or are you not sure?  Can I just remind you further before you answer, that you also said in your evidence that they, after you turned from Noord into King George there were hundreds ahead of you and they passed peacefully on and they were left alone to go on ahead, they were not attacked.  Now is that what you saw Mr Ngobese?

MR NGOBESE: As I've already explained, I thought we were following the group ahead of us as usual.  That is how we move, we use the same route and that is why I'm saying I thought that at that stage we were still following them.  As to what became of the group I do not know.  When we got attacked I had the impression that we were still following the group ahead of us.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] clear that up as far as I'm concerned.  If anything were to have happened to that group that was ahead of you while they were in King George Street you would have seen it?

MR NGOBESE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, the policemen that you referred to at Hook Street, did they speak to your group or your Induna?

MR NGOBESE: The police that I'm referring to were the police in Hook Street.

MR TIPP: Those are the very ones I'm referring to.  Did they speak to anyone in your group and particularly your Induna?

MR NGOBESE: They never did but they just indicated with their hands that this is the route that we should take as a group.

MR TIPP: Hook Street itself was perfectly clear and open, is that correct?

MR NGOBESE: There were a lot of police who told us that we were not supposed to use Hook Street.  They indicated another route that we should follow, so we could not use Hook Street, we had to proceed towards Noord Street which means Hook Street was not accessible to us because of the police barricade.

MR TIPP: Are you saying Mr Ngobese, that there were a large number of policemen who had completely blocked off Hook Street?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct, that is what I explained earlier on, that there were a lot of police who were wearing stability uniforms.

MR TIPP: But you could see Hook Street as you passed by that Hook Street itself, other than the policemen, was perfectly open and clear, is that right?

MR NGOBESE: I didn't pay much attention to that because we were actually waiting for the Induna to give us specific instructions and at the same time we were singing and we were actually waiting for the Induna to give us further instructions.  Sir, I don't remember myself looking as to whether Hook Street was clear or not.

MR TIPP: Were those the only policemen that you saw between Park Station and the point where you got shot?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct.

MR TIPP: When you got to Wanderer's Street there were no policemen there?

MR NGOBESE: I never saw any.

MR TIPP: And Wanderer's Street is in fact a wider street than is King George Street and one that was perfectly suitable for a large group of people to move down, will you accept tat?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I do accept that.

MR TIPP: Can you explain to us why your group didn't then turn right down Wanderer's Street in order to go on to Library Gardens?

MR NGOBESE: It's because we were following the other group which was ahead of us.

MR TIPP: So you're quite clear now that the group was still ahead of you, the other groups were still ahead of you as you crossed over Wanderer's Street?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is quite clear because we were still continuing to follow the rest of the group which was ahead of us or other groups which were ahead of us.

MR TIPP: And as far as you are concerned, no groups turned down Wanderer's Street?

MR NGOBESE: I don't remember seeing any group that took Wanderer's Street.