Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 2000-05-08

JOHANNES MAKATU: It happened while we were in the mountain and we held a meeting in the mountain and the deceased arrived with his children and they decided to throw us or pelt us with stones, but we didn't notice the direction of the stones, but I was one of the persons who were stoned by one of the stones, and I was also shamboked.  The person whom I managed to identify was the deceased, because there was moonlight.  That is all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was that a meeting of the Youth Congress that was held at night in the mountain, is that the instance that you are referring to?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And who was chairing that specific meeting that you are now talking about, who was the Chairman?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The Chairperson by then if my memory still serves me well, it was Lawrence Modau.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Of these two reasons, namely that he was a witch and that he opposed the Youth Congress, which of these two reasons would you say in your own mind, was the strongest one which led to the people feeling that he must leave the village?

JOHANNES MAKATU: As far as I am concerned, I think they are both equal.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you tell us why the people wanted him to leave because he was a witch?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I can give evidence on that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please do.

JOHANNES MAKATU: To start with, during the time in which this violence happened, the people who were suspected of practising witchcraft were seen as people who were with the people who were in government, and we do understand if they are working with the government, or people in government, it means that they were people who were suppressing our rights, so that our rights cannot be realised.  Another reason again is that during that time, we were trying to overthrow the Venda government or to make it ungovernable and then return it back to South Africa.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you ever see the deceased practising witchcraft?

JOHANNES MAKATU: No, I didn't see him, but I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe it, that what you heard?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I believed it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now this Mavhunga Youth Congress, what were the aims of this Youth Congress?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The aims of the Youth Congress was - because by the time in which Mandela was released from jail, there was the creation of organisations and then we decided to group, to ensure that we form our own Youth Congress in order to fight against apartheid and the Venda government which was ruling by then.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Just repeat again to me what were the aims or the objects of the Youth Congress?  I am talking about the Mavhunga Youth Congress, what were their aims, what did they want to achieve?

JOHANNES MAKATU: May you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am asking about the aims, the objectives of the Mavhunga Youth Congress, not about other organisations, the Mavhunga Youth Congress, what were their aims and objectives?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The main aim of the youth was to fight against the Venda government which was ruling by then.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am not talking about the youth, I am talking about the Youth Congress, that specific organisation that you testified about, what were their aims and their objectives?  Do you know?

JOHANNES MAKATU: They were not yet drafted by then.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you join the organisation?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I was a supporter.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, what did you think is worthwhile in that organisation politically?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I think what was worthwhile is that the organisations were unbanned and then in all villages, people formed a Youth Congress which   were used, which will possibly help them in other things, with regard to the fighting with the Venda government which was ruling by then.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At that time, the youth came together and they decided to form a Congress or an organisation who would fight the government, but it wasn't formed officially yet, is that correct?

JOHANNES MAKATU: It was not yet officially formed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But it was in the process of being formed?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, it was in the process of being formed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you were one of the supporters who would participate in this process of forming this new organisation?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I used to attend various meetings.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Makatu, I put it to you that this Mavhunga Youth Congress that you are talking about, such an organisation never existed.

JOHANNES MAKATU: That is not true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you have any documentary proof that such an organisation ever came into existence, either at the time that you are testifying about or afterwards, do you have any documentary proof that such a Youth Congress ever existed?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I don't have that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.   Can you explain where there is no such documentation?

JOHANNES MAKATU: That I cannot explain.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Don't you think an organisation like that should have a constitution, should keep minutes of the meetings?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg tell me is it your specific instruction from  your client that  what you put to the witness was in fact the position?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is in fact my direct instructions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't recall but perhaps you can help me, when your client in the form of Mrs Mavhunga testified last time, I don't recall that that was ever her evidence, I don't further recall that any of the other applicants were confronted with that possibility that the Mavhunga Youth Congress in waiting as it were, never existed.  I don't know, maybe I forget?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Mr Chairman, the reason why the witness that was called, Rosinnah, couldn't testify about that, is in fact because she was totally apolitical, she didn't have any knowledge of that specific facts.  I have received instructions from her son regarding that, and you will also remember that during my cross-examination constantly, the political involvement, the structures, the leaders of that so-called organisation was put in dispute right from the beginning, in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: I say I cannot remember, I will take your word for it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Makatu, the question is, don't you find it strange because I certainly do, that you are testifying about an organisation that was so organised, that they could get a group of people together and do all these things, and yet there is not one scrap of paper to prove their existence, don't you find that strange?

JOHANNES MAKATU: The organisation was not yet formed officially and it was not yet in books, it was in the process of being formed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  But I understand your evidence that it was formed later, at a later stage, is that correct?  Is that correct?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is that you are testifying that at the time when the deceased was killed, this organisation was not officially formed yet.  Now from that, I deduct that at a later stage it was in fact officially formed.  My question relates to this later existence of this so-called Mavhunga Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's establish whether he can say if it was in fact formed later.  Tell me, you say that at the time of this incident, the youth was preparing to launch the Mavhunga Youth Congress, certain meetings were being held, interrupted and so forth.  After this incident, do you know whether the Congress was in fact launched?  Can you tell us?

JOHANNES MAKATU: There was disturbances to the effect that the organisation was not formed officially.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether it exists today, the Mavhunga Youth Congress?

JOHANNES MAKATU: No, I've got no idea.