Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-22

MR PRIOR: What we are saying to you is, it seems to have been standard practice in APLA, that when you took things from Africans, you made it clear to them that you were APLA, that you were on an operation, that you were wanting their co-operation for them to help you with your mission, and that is why you were taking something from them.  So they would understand and most likely assist you.  That seems to be standard practice in APLA.  I'm asking you why didn't you do that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's because when we took the car we were sure that the owner of the car would go and report to the Police and tell them that we took the car by force.  That's why we took their car that way.

CHAIRPERSON: But why tell them that you were going to return the car to them if you were so convinced they were going to tell the Police?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were trying because we saw that they were not relaxed.  We wanted them to have hope that their car will be back, but we knew that they would go and report to the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: So this, this statement that you would bring their car back, you only wanted to borrow it, was not true?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was true because really we did return, but we did not bring, did not give them their car, but we left it on the road.

CHAIRPERSON: A few moments ago you said you only said this because you wanted them to relax.  Did you say it because you wanted them to relax, or did you say it because it was the truth, you intended to return it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Our aim was to return this car.  After the operation we would return the car, but we would not give the car to them.  We would leave the car somewhere, but if they go to the Police and report the car, they would find their car not damaged.

MR PRIOR: Just one last aspect, Chairperson.  Did you find out or give them any indication where you would leave the car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No we didn't tell them where we would leave the car.

MR PRIOR: But that was also, it seems, APLA practice to try and find some place where you could leave it that they would know it would be there.  Why didn't you do that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At the time the reason was that we knew that where we would leave the car they would find it with the help of the Police.

MR PRIOR: Just one last point.  Just one last point.  It took them more than 45 minutes to get to Herschel from where you left them on the road.  That gave you plenty of time to carry out your operation and disappear again.  So why were you so worried that they would report it to the Police?  The point is, by the time they would have got to the Police, you would have been long gone.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Please repeat your question, Sir, I don't understand it.

MR PRIOR: I'm just questioning your statement that you were worried that they might report this to the Police.  The fact of the matter is that you would have been long gone by the time they had a chance to report it to the Police, and that was in fact so.  Do you understand the question?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We knew that when we were leaving there the Sterkspruit Police Station was not, was far, but a car maybe would come by and help them and take them to the Police or they can use a telephone from Herschel and phone to the Police Station to get help.  We also expected something like that.

MR PRIOR: It seems the Railways are making a nice noise for us.  I think this ...(indistinct) is leaving us.  Let's carry on.

ADV SANDI: Just one issue, Mr Dolo.  I have heard my colleague, Mr Lax, making two statements to you regarding what he said were matters of common practice to APLA.  I have not heard what your response was to that, whether you deny or admit those two propositions.  To start with, he says to you, there was a practice amongst APLA cadres to identify themselves, who they were.  Where you aware of such a common practice?  To identify themselves to African people who they were, were you aware of such a ...(inaudible)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I was aware.

ADV SANDI: He has also proposed to you that there was a common practice amongst the APLA cadres to make it clear to the owner of the vehicle where he or she will get it once it has been used for the purpose which it was being sought.  Were you aware of such a practice?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I am aware.

ADV SANDI: Do you not deny that such practices existed within APLA?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I do agree that such practice has happened.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Fushani complained to the Police that when he recovered his vehicle or found his vehicle on the next day in Sterkspruit, the sum of R60,00 was missing from the vehicle.  Are you able to assist the Committee and tell the Committee whether you removed money from the vehicle, or anyone else removed his money?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I am sure that in that car I did not take money, even the Comrades that were with me.  No-one took the  money in the car.  We did not take anything.  We just left the car as it was when we found it.  Again we found a purse inside the car and we gave it to a lady who was inside the car.  She left the purse inside and then we gave it to her and the two ...(indistinct) that were inside the car we said "here are your two ...(indistinct).

MR PRIOR: Mr Lax, Mr Fushani confirms that.  But did you not see his travel document.  He said there was a cheque for R1500,00.  That was all there when he recovered his vehicle, but the money, but you say you don't know anything about the money.  You've answered the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should make it clear it was more than money.  It was all his belongings in the car were taken.

MR PRIOR: No, Mr Chairman, he said he recovered all that.  He only missed the money.  That's at page 44, the second to last paragraph.

MR LAX: I'll read to you.  Maybe the translators can translate it.  It's in Afrikaans.  He says
"All my property was taken with the vehicle.  That includes my passport, my driver's licence, a cheque in my name - value of R1500,00, two wallets or purse and approximately R60,00, groceries and other property."

CHAIRPERSON: When he later recovered the vehicle, the only thing missing was the money?

MR PRIOR: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But when the vehicle was taken it had all these things in it?

MR PRIOR: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Can we just move on to the Police Station.  Is it correct you drove past the Police Station first, and then you returned before you launched the attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And did you see that some of the Policemen were having a braaivleis there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: What I noticed is that I saw one Policeman outside.

MR PRIOR: In uniform or in private clothes?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was wearing private clothes.

MR PRIOR: Any women or children in that area?  That is the area which you attacked.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, we did not see them.

MR PRIOR: And when you launched the attack, was that single Policeman, he was the only person that you could see at that time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you know whether there were any other people inside the residence there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No we did not know.

MR PRIOR: Tell the Committee what was the first thing that happened.  Were shots fired and then the grenade thrown?  What was the sequence?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: When we were returning I was the first one to shoot.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Dolo, were you on the back of the bakkie?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I was at the back of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: Was Vuyosile also at the back of the bakkie?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Vuyosile and I were at the back of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: Did you open fire with the R5?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.  While I was still shooting Vuyosile threw the grenade, the handgrenade.  We then passed.  We left, we went back to Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Did you see where the handgrenade landed and exploded?  In which area of the Police premises?