Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

CHAIRPERSON: You told us in your evidence that you did not kill or injure the two young children who are either twins or looked like twins, because you yourself had children, you were a parent.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told the Committee now that in attacking Boipatong, no distinction was made as to the age of the residents, whether you're young or old, it didn't matter, you had to be killed.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then how do you reconcile this last statement with your earlier statement?   Do you understand that?   Answer the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, as I have explained that we went to attack the ANC's at Boipatong.   I know that children were injured, we were not necessarily looking at the age and it is therefore for this reason that we were not looking at a person's age.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, that we understand perfectly well, but what Mr Berger wants you to reconcile is your conduct in telling those young children to get under the bed because you didn't want to harm them, because you're a parent.   How do you reconcile that with the attitude of the attackers that everyone in the Boipatong township had to be killed regardless of the age?   Do you understand the question?   Would you want me to put the question in Zulu to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do understand, sir, but I don't quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: (Puts question in Zulu).   When you arrived at the house where these two children were killed, you have told the Committee that as a parent, you did not want to injure the children and you instructed them to hide under the bed, and now you are telling the Committee, when Boipatong was being attacked, you were not discriminating child, father, young and old, everybody were going to be killed.   I am saying to you, would you please explain this?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, the two children were instructed to hide under the bed because I was sympathetic, I realised that they were still young, they knew nothing.   People who had to answer had already fled, but these two young children knew nothing.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you never hid those two children under the bed, if you could have killed them, you would have killed them, isn't that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, sir.

MR BERGER: The only explanation that you have for small babies being killed is because they were the children of people who might have been ANC members, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, we were not looking at anything like who's whose father or mother, we were just going to attack the people at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: I can give you the names of all the young people, but I'm sure it won't make any difference.   Let me ask you this, old people were also killed, I can give you examples:  at 1183 Mosheshwe Street a 63 year old woman, Nellie Kugu, was stabbed repeatedly in the upper thighs and shot three times;  at 45 Majola Street, 62 year old Belina Lerobane died, after receiving multiple stab wounds and being shot four times in the neck.   There are other examples of old people who were shot and stabbed.   Is your answer the same, it did not matter how old or how young, if you were a resident of Boipatong, you were a target to be killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And it didn't matter whether you were an ANC member or not, as long as you were a resident of Boipatong, you were a target to be killed, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, people at Boipatong were attacked and I wouldn't say whether a person was a member of the ANC or that organisation, there's nothing I can say about that.

MR BERGER: And it's not that people were just shot once or stabbed once, there are numerous examples of people who were repeatedly shot and repeatedly hacked and stabbed.   One woman in fact was so badly stabbed, a middle-aged woman, so badly stabbed that you couldn't even count the number of stab wounds on her body.   Do you have any explanation for why people were butchered in this way?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I understand and believe that - Mr Berger, we went to attack people, it was a fight in a war situation, and yourself, as Mr Berger, if you were fighting someone, really, I don't know how you would go about doing that, we were actually fighting these people, and I won't know how many times a person was stabbed, etcetera.

MR BERGER: Many people were killed while they were sleeping.  I can tell you a woman, Elizabeth Malindi, she was stabbed 15 times in her bed while sleeping, and there are plenty of other examples of people who were sleeping when they were killed.   Again, if I understand you correctly, they were fair targets as well?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, you are saying these people were sleeping, but they were sleeping at Boipatong township.

MR BERGER: The same would be true for Maria Mlangene, who was pregnant at the time, she was stabbed, her foetus was killed, she was just in Boipatong, she was a target?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Do you want an answer on that as well?

MR BERGER: Yes please.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think I have already explained that she too was attacked because she was found at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Why was property looted, why was so much property stolen from Boipatong, what was the reason for that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I wouldn't explain really how that happened, but myself as Zulu, as far as I know, I discovered that, I think you too know history, there was a time when Shaka attacked people and he would confiscate the cattle, their cattle, as a sign of his victory.

MR BERGER: If you would look at page 38, paragraph 8, of your affidavit?   You say
"We could recognise each other even at night, because we had white bandages around our heads in order to distinguish our partners.   We continued to kill the residents of Boipatong until we came to the end of the township.   Others stole the property inside the houses, like two plate stoves, TV's and blankets, because it was winter time and it was very cold inside Kwamadala Hostel.   Maybe we took an hour or half an hour, I cannot remember."
You say property was stolen as a sign of victory?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I was explaining here, I was explaining in terms of the tradition, that Shaka would conquer his enemies and confiscate the livestock.   We did not necessarily take these things as an indication of victory over these people.

MR BERGER: Why did you take the things then?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I wouldn't really answer that question.

MR BERGER: Well, you say
"People stole blankets because it was winter time and it was very cold."
That was why they stole blankets, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: Why did they steal TV's and stoves?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot answer that, sir.

MR BERGER: People stole meat and food, why did they do that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Where is that, sir, I don't know that?