Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

MS TANZER: Now you also said that you had - on the same paragraph, that you had not been involved in any other attacks prior to the Boipatong Massacre.  Is this correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: In the affidavit you state that you were not involved in any other attacks prior to the massacre on Boipatong, is that correct?  This is in paragraph 2 on page 18.

MR LAX: Sorry, are you not referring to paragraph 4 on page 19 where you say you were not involved in ...(indistinct)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was involved in the Sebokeng matter as well as in the Small Farm incident.

MS TANZER: Which took place on the 15th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MS TANZER: In paragraph 3 on page 18 of the bundle you said that Mtwana Zulu gave instructions to break into shops and steal food.   Was that accurate?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he did not authorise us to break into shops, we did this on our own initiative.

MS TANZER: What instructions did you receive from Mtwana Zulu?

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry.  Can you just hear the Chairperson is asking you something about where did this occur, what are you referring to?  Please refer us to the right section and let the witness answer before you then ask him another question?

MS TANZER: I said it was on page 18 at paragraph 3 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position then the statement which says "we will break into shops and steal food" that's not correct?

MS TANZER: That's my question, yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did say that it isn't correct.  We did this, the breaking into shops, we did it when we were not staying at KwaMadala Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement that Themba Khosa chaired IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said he was the chairperson of the IFP Youth Brigade in the Vaal Triangle, he was in charge of the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: What I've said to you, is it correct or not?  In the statement at paragraph 2, the statement that you made, you say "Themba Khosa chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel".  Now I want to find out from you is that statement true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that Themba Khosa was not the chairperson of the IFP but he was responsible for the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: Well can you clarify was he a frequent visitor at the hostel, was that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he was a frequent visitor.

MS TANZER: Now in paragraph 3 you said Mtwana Zulu gave instructions to break into shops and steal food.  Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true.

MS TANZER: What instructions did Mtwana Zulu give you, if any?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The only order he gave us was to kill the people of Sebokeng, not to break into shops.  He said this because those people were IFP enemies, they were involved in the killing of IFP members.

MS TANZER: Now on page 19 of the affidavit, at paragraph 5 on the second line, you say the meeting was held in a big hall and was attended by a lot of people.  Was it a big hall or was it a stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It's like a sports ground.

MS TANZER: More like a stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MS TANZER: Now on paragraph 19 of your affidavit which is page 21 you say you entered eight houses that night, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, when we went to Boipatong we entered into five houses.  Please just explain to me are you referring to the Boipatong or the Sebokeng matter?

MS TANZER: I'm referring to the Boipatong matter.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In that regard we entered into five houses not eight.

MS TANZER: Are you presently in prison and on what charge?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I am in prison and I have been sentenced with regards to the murders in Sebokeng and Everton.

MS TANZER: Where were you born?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was born in Everton at 671 Newman Road.

MS TANZER: When did you leave Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly it was in 1991 after comrades had threatened me about the burning of a certain garage.

MS TANZER: So when you left Everton, where did you go live?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I went to live at the Boipatong Hostel.

MS TANZER: Boipatong or KwaMadala?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: KwaMadala Hostel at the Iscor Hostel.

MS TANZER: When did you go live in the KwaMadala Hostel, what date, do you remember?  Or the year?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was in 1991, I do not remember the month.

MS TANZER: When did you become an IFP member?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In 1991.

MS TANZER: As you arrived at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: As you arrived at the hostel did you become an IFP member?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, after I had arrived at the hostel.

MS TANZER: When you arrived at the KwaMadala Hostel, were they suspicious, the leaders suspicious that you were an ANC spy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were suspicious.

MS TANZER: Were you questioned by any committee about your political affiliations or your reasons for coming to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, the person who questioned me on my arrival at the hostel were Mtwana Zulu, Damara and Rita Xongo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zulu, Damara Xongo and who else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Damara Xongo, Dakie Xongo as well as Gatchene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: Were you ever presented - well you said to the IFP Senior Committee at the hostel either voluntarily or by force.  Were you taken by force?  According to the evidence of Richard Dlamini you said you were taken by force, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember that, I do not remember being presented to the Senior Committee of the IFP.

MS TANZER: Do you remember who assigned you a room at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The person who issued me a room was Prince Zulu.

MS TANZER: So what are your comments regarding Moses Mthembu's allegations that he assigned you a room after the attack on Boipatong.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about what he said because I remember very well that it was Prince Zulu who issued me a room.

MS TANZER: Do you remember your room number?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember clearly because I went through several rooms but I think it was Room 3.

MS TANZER: Were you employed whilst you were at the KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I was not employed, I was just an IFP supporter.  We did not work anywhere but we maintained ourselves by stealing cars and breaking into shops.

MS TANZER: What kind of instructions did you receive from the leaders at the KwaMadala Hostel and who gave you these instructions?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did explain that the commander who issued instructions when we attacked - sorry, are you referring to instructions issued when we went on an attack or to a person who commanded the hostel?

MS TANZER: Well let me rephrase, what was the policy of the leaders of the IFP at the hostel that you were aware of?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, with due respect, I mean that's a very broad question.  Would you just try and narrow it down so that he can understand what is it that you want him to say?

MS TANZER: I'll do that.  Did the leaders of the hostel give instructions to the hostel dwellers or to IFP members to attack ANC comrades in the Vaal Triangle?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the acrimony between the dwellers of the KwaMadala Hostel and the residents of Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard about that, that there were IFP members who had been killed in Boipatong.

MS TANZER: When did you first become aware of the fact that an attack Boipatong was imminent?