Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DU PLESSIS: Was that arising from a police investigation in Soweto?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes. Not security but general police.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Jerry Richardson? Do you know that he was charged? And did that arise from a police investigation in Soweto?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes it did.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Madam Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Yes. Can I paraphrase also what I find to be my difficulty. It is obvious to me at least that the contention at least which is held by the leaders of evidence of the TRC, is that either Mrs Mandela was untouchable or that there was specific difference in respect of her or that she was treated in a category of her own kind or that the police in Soweto did not do with her what they were supposed to do with her.
 Now this is notwithstanding the fact that her telephone was tapped. This is notwithstanding the uncontroverted evidence that bugs were inserted in her home. That is notwithstanding the fact that there was search and seizure at her home. That was notwithstanding the fact that there was an incident involving a firearm with a daughter where the police went in and searched. 
 This is notwithstanding the fact that she was arrested in respect of the kidnapping of the Stompie Sepei, that she was prosecuted for that event. I'm just waiting to understand, other than politically related offences, are you aware of any criminal conduct of the common law type for which the police in Soweto have swept it under the carpet?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, not that we know of personally Chairman.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Nienaber?

MR NIENABER: No.

MR SEMENYA: There's another concept called the Mandela United Football Club. Was that thing or that entity, an entity known within the Security force as a distinct entity in 1988, '89, '90?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Chairman, I'm not exactly sure.

MR SEMENYA: Let me put it this way, let me clarify it for you. There was something called the African National Congress which created security risks in the mind of the Security Police, is that right?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Ja.

MR SEMENYA: There was something called APLA which created security concerns within the Security force, isn't that right?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Ja.

MR SEMENYA: There was something called MK which created security concerns within the Security Branch of the Soweto police, isn't that right? Was there also in the same vein something called Mandela United Football Club?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: By far not on the same level, not by far.

MR SEMENYA: I've listened at ...[indistinct] about the terror which this club was creating in Soweto. Was that presence of mind there within the Security Police, that there is this football team which is creating terror in the township?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Like I told you at the outset, I don't know. There were such allegations but I'm not aware of those.

MR SEMENYA: Where their criminal conducts which were executed as you like, in a football type style? I mean people going out with uniforms and going to do that in a discernible football type style?

MR NIENABER: Not to my knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: As far as I understand there were events involving political rallies where members would have football tracksuits. They didn't go shooting at people with these tracksuits did they?

MR NIENABER: Not to my knowledge but they went to funerals and all that stuff with Mrs Mandela and where they created a joint force. And I therefore actually think that the people were actually scared of them, the public was then scared of them as was the case with funerals, where she walked with the men, that is Mrs Mandela.
 It was general knowledge that they accompanied them to such funerals and I am convinced that from time to time there must have been occasions - I don't know what specific funeral it could be, some of them even high-jacked a bus and then they went off with the bus. It is that type of thing that the children did.

MR SEMENYA: Would you as a security officer go and arrest Mrs Mandela?

MR NIENABER: No, no I wouldn't arrest (...indistinct)

MR SEMENYA: Now for the life of me I'm trying to understand why, if what you did in respect of Mrs Mandela is what you were supposed to do for every citizen. If you don't have evidence you don't arrest, why are you being accused for doing what the law permitted you to do or restrained you from doing if you don't have the evidence?

MR NIENABER: I'm trying to explain it.

MR SEMENYA: Do you have an answer to that?

MR NIENABER: We're trying to explain all the time that we tried to do our utmost best to either prosecute and to keep up the law and what have you.

MR SEMENYA: But what I don't understand is as those that are expecting the security department to do to Mrs Mandela what was done to Mabotha or am I missing the cue here?

MR NIENABER: No I don't think so. I don't know whether they expected that, that I can't answer you.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Mr Mabunda?

MR MABUNDA: No questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you Madam Chair. General Nienaber, you took office of the Security Branch in Soweto in December of 1988, is that so?

MR NIENABER: I think it was 1989, let's say at the start of 1989, it was the 14th of December of 1988.

MR HUGO: Can we just get to an agreement. If I ask you the question, please if you don't mind you must answer it. Were you satisfied with the management style of your predecessor?

MR NIENABER: Yes.

MR HUGO: Did you in fact follow along those lines when you took over?

MR NIENABER: Sort of.

MR HUGO: I specifically refer to the use to get together in the mornings from seven o'clock to half past seven, never after half past seven, your officers were then drilled together and they then discussed matters?

MR NIENABER: Yes, we proceeded with that.

MR HUGO: Can you please enlighten us, did this happen every day, these meetings?

MR NIENABER: Yes. One could in general say that perhaps on a few occasions we could have had more meetings but generally speaking it happened on a daily basis.

MR HUGO: You then acted as chairman? And the purpose of these meetings was to inform you with regard to all the activities in your unit?

MR NIENABER: That is more or less correct.

MR HUGO: What do you mean with "more or less correct"? Is it correct or not?

MR NIENABER: Yes everybody told his own story.

MR HUGO: You actually busied yourself with very serious investigations at that stage?

MR NIENABER: More or less, yes.

MR HUGO: Were you busy with serious matters or not?

MR NIENABER: Yes we did.

MR HUGO: May I then also ask you who the officers were who attended these information meetings, if I can call it that, since you took over command?

MR NIENABER: At the beginning of '89, if we could use that as a date, usually they were the section heads, your commanders of the different sections.

MR HUGO: General Nienaber I want names. Which officers attended these meetings?

MR NIENABER: Let's start off with the Investigation Unit: Potgieter, Grobbelaar, I also think - what is the man's name now Langenhoven, and at that stage there was also van der Merwe.

MR HUGO: Very well you gave me those two names I was interested in. Colonel Grobbelaar was one of those people who attended the meetings and Captain Potgieter was another. Did Colonel Grobbelaar during any of these meetings tell you that they were on their way to Marble Hall to arrest the so-called askari and to keep him there in custody?