Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Palela Hlongwa kept in contact with the Welfare, to be in touch with the Mkhize family so that we can talk and apologise about what happened to the Mkhize family.
	In that sense Mr Mkhize said she has some questions for us.  However, he didn't actually explain or elaborate which questions she would like to ask us as we are arrested.

MR NGUBANE: If the family would like to pose certain questions to you, are you prepared to answer those questions in a frank manner?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, we are.

MR NGUBANE: Now, an argument might be advanced that you are applying for amnesty simply because you want to be out of jail and you have no regard for the family.  What would be your comment to that?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: According to my wish, I would actually like to see the Mkhize family, not necessarily that I want to be out of jail, but I wish to apologise to the Mkhize family and let bygone's by bygone's during the conflict between the IFP and the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Mr Msani, in your application at 11(b), page 71 of the bundle, you were asked who gave an instruction, and you said not applicable.  And today Mr Ngubane asked you who was your direct Commander and you said it is Bukela Luthuli.  Can you explain to the Committee why you never gave that name before?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: During the application, in that application that I filled in, I was in jail.  You will actually remember that my mind don't function properly in jail.
	That is why actually I did not give, that I did not explain and elaborate.  I was not filling the forms by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody in fact give you an instruction to kill the deceased?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: No.

MS THABETE: So, what did Bukela Luthuli do?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Bukela was the Commander, our Commander.

MS THABETE: And then in your application, at number 9(1)(i), page 66 of the bundle, you mention Pelelani Bekhisenzo Hlongwa and Gwenzawakhe Msani and then at 10(b) of your application, page 69 of the bundle, you mention Jogolo Cele.  Can you also explain to the Committee why you have never mentioned Mabuno Hlongwa before?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: During the application, I actually included these three names as were the people that we were arrested together with here.

MR LAX: Sorry before you go on, I don't understand your answer.  You were asked why you didn't mention the person's name, you still haven't explained that as far as I can hear.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I explained initially that during the application, I included the names of the people that we were arrested with.  The police did not actually charge him, he was outside.
	That is why I did not include him.

MR LAX: Are you saying you did not include him because he was not convicted with you?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: But you did understand that you were supposed to tell the full truth when you filled out this application?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I did explain initially that in jail, the brain doesn't function properly when we are in jail.  We are like children when we are in jail.
	The brain is actually sort of disturbed to a certain extent when you are in jail.

MS THABETE: Just a follow up question Mr Msani, you are still in jail, isn't it?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is your brain, can we assume that your brain is functioning properly right now?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, it functions properly.

MS THABETE: Mr Ngubane says in court, part of what you said was the truth, and part of what you said, was a lie.  Can you just explain briefly, which part was the truth and which part was a lie in what you said in court?  Just briefly?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In court, to deny it was a lie, we denied everything because of the situation that I initially explained.
	Secondly in court, I have explained that how did I perceive the Court.

MR LAX: You don't answer the question, what was true about what you said in court?  You said some of it was lies, we can understand that if you are denying something, you would lie about that, but you also said that part of it was the truth.
	What truth did you tell in court?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In court in the box, when I was giving evidence, there was like that the IPF was attacking us because it was evident that we have lost the case.  I agreed that the IPF actually killed our brothers and I can't remember the rest.

MR LAX: But in court you denied that you had anything to do with the ANC, you denied that you were UDF?  That was your defence, you denied it completely.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR LAX: So you didn't admit that you were ANC there, you didn't admit that these people were attacking you.  You in fact said you weren't even there?  You knew nothing about this.  This was your defence?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I did agree that the case, we actually denied it.

MR LAX: Please continue Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: You say Mr Mbutho came to you and told you that you must go and kill Mr Mkhize.  Is that correct?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did you ask him how he came about that decision, like did you question him why he reached the decision that Mr Mkhize should be killed?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The applicant Fanie Mbutho was no longer staying at his place, because it was nearby the IFP stronghold.  We have been trying for several times to kill Mkhize, but in vain.
	We have been shooting at him and actually throwing stones at him, but in vain.  It was not that on that day we actually took a decision on that particular day, we have been trying for several times to shoot at him.

MS THABETE: I just want to rephrase what you are saying, would it be correct for me to say you had reached the decision to kill Mr Mkhize a long time ago?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Okay.  My last question to you, you say you shot Mr Mkhize, is that all you did when he was killed?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Myself, I shot him, he ran away.  I initially explained that Palela Hlongwa and Mabuno actually shot as well, and I actually took the bush knife from Jogolo Cele and then I hit him because he was still moving by then.  Then I struck him, using the knife and then I ran away because the police were by then approaching.

CHAIRPERSON: On which part of the body did you strike the deceased with the bush knife?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: At the head, at the head.

MS THABETE: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any re-examination?

MR NGUBANE: I have none, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Tell me did you know this police from kwaZulu by name whom you were saying that they were assisting Inkatha to attack you?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Well, I wouldn't know all of them, but I knew some of them by surnames, but not all of them.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, you said you reported them, but nothing was done.  When you were making such reports, did you give specific names of the police who were involved?