Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR HESSLINGA: Never.  At this time - since the Attorney General instructed us or informed us that he was not going to review his decision, there is in fact no legal grounds for us on which to confront Mrs Mandela or attempt to obtain a statement from her.

MR UNTERHALTER: ...[inaudible]

MR HESSLINGA: I'm referring particularly to '95.

MR UNTERHALTER: ...[inaudible] last time that you saw the docket in the Sono case?

MR HESSLINGA: That must have been during 1995 Chair.

MR UNTERHALTER: One last question and that's for you Mr Moodley, have you taken any steps - since last we asked you questions, to try and track down this docket as you promised you would?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, I have, I've recovered those two statements that Mr Hesslinga has handed in here now and we found two other statements which are part of those statements but we haven't found the actual docket itself, we're still looking for it.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you direct enquiries to the Attorney General's office?

MR MOODLEY: I've directed enquiries.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what was the response?

MR MOODLEY: Well, they're waiting for a letter from me where they referred to the thing and I asked somebody to look it up in Commissioner Fivaz's office and they're looking it up for me - they're still following it up.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR UNTERHALTER

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Dempsey, can I direct this question to you please?  Firstly, on page 16 of this investigation diary, there is a note and I think it's Colonel Hesslinga's note, which says that he found in the docket that there was prima faci evidence against Mrs Mandela in terms of her direct involvement in the kidnapping of Lolo Sono and Sibusiso Shabalala.  May I ask you what your recommendation was to the Attorney General, at the time that you in fact investigated this matter?

MR DEMPSEY: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

MR DEMPSEY: On several occasions I've stated that this is the procedure - I investigate the matter with all of the facts available to me, statements under oath and I provide all of this to him and he then at the end of the day decides whether he'll make a charge or not or whether he's going to prosecute or not.  In this case, there had been interviews with Mr Sono, with Mr Shabalala, with Mr Michael Siakemela and all of these persons refused to testify.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Moodley, it I understand you know - the statements that you've recovered, of course don't include that of Michael Siakamela, is that correct?

MR DEMPSEY: That's correct.  I just want to point out that both the statements are in two different places ...[indistinct] - what I'm saying is, the one lot of statements that I had to the day before yesterday and gave to Piers - I've got copies of it, I found in a box that we got from the court - amongst the court documents that Colonel Dempsey had got, okay? - that was one set of statements that doesn't include Michael's statement.
 Yesterday when I went through another set of documents, I found these files with our computer documents, in other words what I'm saying is, both of them don't have Michael's statement.

YASMINE SOOKA: And of course Michael's statement is the one that corroborates.

MR MOODLEY: It seems to be the one that corroborates it.

YASMINE SOOKA: I see, thank you.  May I ask another question please?  On page 18 of this investigation diary reference is made Colonel Hesslinga, to approval for the payment of this R10.000-00.   I think what I fail to understand today - because there's reference also to a receipt and I assume that the receipt has been signed by Jerry, could you tell me please how much of that R10.000-00 was spent on the uniforms and all the paraphernalia and how much money in cash Jerry actually received after you had purchased all these ...[indistinct] for the football club?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I personally gave him R10.000-00 in cash and he signed - in the presence of two witnesses, for that amount.  The original receipt is available, I had it locked in a safe in the police head office.  With regard to the money used for the gifts and the soccer clothes and so forth, I am aware of this but this was in the able hands of my colleague and friend Senior Superintendent Moodley.

YASMINE SOOKA: So in fact, R10.000-00 in cash was carried to the prison, if I hear you correctly.
 Mr Moodley, may I ask you a question please, have you ever been convicted of fraud in the terms of your service as a policeman?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, I have.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you tell this Commission what that was for please?

MR MOODLEY: I'll explain to this Commission because it seems to be a sore point to this Commission for a long time and everybody wants to know.  When I was still a Constable in the South African Police - then attached to the security branch, I assisted a friend of mine who was then asked to determine whether he was the father of a child in Cape Town.
 I went to assist him and when I got to this hospital at Addington, I then realised this is wrong for me and I told the nurse: "Sorry, I'm not the right person, the right person is outside this place" and then by my own admission - she then took his blood and did everything else and two days later - I told her where I worked, she phoned the security branch and said: "You know what, this is what this policeman did" and they then - the White members of the branch, decided to charge me for this fraud.  And I was then charged for attempted fraud and found guilty and I paid a fine of R1.000-00.

YASMINE SOOKA: And is it not true that recently when certain lie detector tests - when you had to undergo a lie detector test, did you pass that test because there seems to be some uncertainty about that?

MR MOODLEY: I don't know whether I passed it or failed it but they just didn't tell me what the situation was but I did the test definitely.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Doctor Randera?  ...[inaudible]

DR RANDERA: Two questions Doctor Boraine.
 I just want to clarify this for us gentlemen - both of you, earlier on Mr Moodley says he bought televisions sets etc., for Mr Richardson and there wasn't actually R10.000-00 handed over, now you're saying you personally took R10.000-00 to him, now are we to understand that Mr Richardson got R10.000-00 plus all these other things?

MR HESSLINGA: No, Chair, I personally handed R10.000-00 in hard cash to him.  Subsequently - after he received this amount, he spoke to us and to the head of the prison and indicated that he wanted to use this money for his soccer team in prison and for co-prisoners in prison and that is how the process then continued.

DR RANDERA: ...[inaudible] question to Superintendent Dempsey.   I don't think there's any problem with Johannes Mabotha having been an Askari and that he was blown up by de Kock but yesterday also the point was made that he was at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house because he had escaped from Vlakplaas and was actually giving information to the ANC concerning Vlakplaas activities.  Do you gentlemen know about this - any of you, either at the time or since - in terms of looking at all the files?

MR MOODLEY: No, I don't no.

MR DEMPSEY: No.

DR RANDERA: ...[inaudible] yesterday or the day before.

MR MOODLEY: We just heard now that he was blown up - I heard that.

DR BORAINE: I'm going to give Mr Cilliers the last words, so in fairness let me ask - and you can wait Mr Hanif Vally.  Mr Semenya, do want anything?

MR SEMENYA: No.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, you are very accommodating, thank you.
 Do you want to speak before Mr Cilliers or after Mr Cilliers?

MR VALLY: I think it would be proper if I speak before Mr Cilliers in case he ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Exactly as I thought I should do it, please go ahead and you've got one minute.