Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: What prevented you from going to one or other of these two very senior officers and say your colonel in Port Elizabeth is expecting that we should commit perjury and defeat the ends of justice;  help me please to be in good faith and faithful to the truth of my - as my church demands?

MR SNYMAN: That would probably have been the correct cause of action, but we did not take it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why didn't you do it?

MR SNYMAN: I've already said to you that I acted under pressure and that these statements were made under pressure and that we had to keep to these statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to suggest to you that you did not do it, because you were not pulled along, but rather a "voorbok" as the senior officer of this whole scheme to defeat the ends of justice.

MR SNYMAN: I do not concur, that was not the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were the proceedings in court transmitted by  a secret transmitter, so that one witness could hear what the other witness was saying in court?

MR SNYMAN: I do not bear knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Try and think.

MR SNYMAN: That was 20 years ago, I cannot remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you say that it may have happened, but you don't remember.

MR SNYMAN: I'm not sure, I cannot respond to that.

GEORGE BIZOS: But surely, so dramatic - a dramatic fraud on the court;  if it happened, would not have been something you would have forgotten?

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there an answer?

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I still didn't hear it.

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge of any such a matter, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I listened to your evidence carefully and I believe that there are certain ambiguities which I want to clear up.
	Did you or did you not assault the late Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I did not assault him, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you associate yourself in any way with any assault that may have been committed on him?

MR SNYMAN: As I've said in my testimony, there was no assault on him other than to bring him under control.

GEORGE BIZOS: But that was justified, that was not an assault, if your evidence was correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You never witnessed any assault if I understood your evidence?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you did not associate yourself in any way with any unlawful act that may be described as an assault in relation to your dealings with the late Mr Biko?  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Then I do not understand, Sir, how you came to say under oath on page 9 of your application, the following
		"Your motivation why you would associate such an act....
And it continues -
"... to associate this with a political purpose - for reference see paragraph 9(a)iv) above ..."
And then it reads: 
"Steven Bantu Biko.
		The assault occurred during interrogation and Mr Biko died during the course of his detention at the Central Prison, Pretoria, as a result of injuries sustained during the interrogation on the 6th of September 1977.  The confrontation was the direct result of our efforts to obtain information from Mr Biko who had been a prominent anti-government activist.  
Did you sign that under oath?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is it true or false?

MR SNYMAN: It is not false, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is it true?

MR SNYMAN: The assault to which I refer, is the scuffle, the shuffle  during which the members of the interrogating team were involved ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: The - jammer, gaan maar voort.

MR SNYMAN: ... when Mr Biko began to throw the chair and threw a punch at one of the members.

GEORGE BIZOS: The assault occurred during interrogation.  If there had been no assault, why then have you taken the oath and made the claim that there had in fact been an assault?

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, I must at this stage, I think in all fairness to the witness - one cannot read this entirely out of context, because there's a pertinent reference to paragraph 9(a)(iv) above.
	That paragraph 9(a)(iv) sets out the whole story as to what happened during the interrogation and so it is not entirely fair to suggest that the witness is in fact speaking of another so-called "aanranding", because there is a reference to 9(a)(iv) above.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the word "aanranding" means assault.  Is the burden of the question that there was in fact an assault, judging from what had been read out on this page, page 9?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, your Lordship.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's admitted by this witness;  that there was in fact an assault and he gives an explanation as to how the assault occurred.
	I think that Mr Bizos now says that this is a contradiction with what your client has said that there was in fact no assault on the man;  that legitimate force was used to restrain the man, but there was no assault on him.
I think that that is the distinction Mr Bizos is trying to draw. Mr Bizos, do carry on.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  You see, you in your own words, say that there was an assault during the interrogation.  Please tell us what form the assault took?

MR SNYMAN: In the course of the scuffle with Mr Biko, there were punches thrown by the members who attempted to restrain him.

GEORGE BIZOS: On your version the security policemen did nothing wrong.  They acted in self-defence, all four of them against - an attack on Mr Biko?  That is what your story is.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And that you did nothing wrong?

MR SNYMAN: We had to bring - to restrain him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, he died as a result of violence to his person.  You didn't apply any violence to his person at any time?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nor did any of your colleagues in your presence?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we have said that during the scuffle, he bumped his head against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: That was not violence which was wrongful;  that was in self-defence, because this man had gone berserk on your story?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, and that is the course of events as we have described it.  There had been a scuffle, he did bump his head against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: If your story is true;  that was his own fault and not the fault of anyone else?

MR SNYMAN: Please repeat the latter part of your question?

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just repeat?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  If what happened, is true;  his death was not your fault or the fault of your colleagues, but his own fault.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, in order to restrain him, we had to follow that course of action and in the process thereof he fell with his head against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer the question.  Do you remember what it was?

MR SNYMAN: Please repeat the question?

GEORGE BIZOS: If your story is true, you and your colleagues did nothing wrong.  The late Mr Biko caused his own death and you are - you and your colleagues are blameless of it.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, as I've told you, as it occurred during the scuffle ... (intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Answer the questions, please.

MR SNYMAN: As it occurred during the scuffle he bumped his head against the wall and that is how he was injured.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer the question that I have asked of you.	Do you want me to repeat it?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: I will either repeat it or you can give us an answer and I will continue with the Chairman's permission to ask the question until I have an answer.

MR SNYMAN: The events occurred as I have told it to you, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Sorry, I didn't hear you.