Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

CHAIRPERSON: If now you look at their mothers who are traumatised by their deaths, as you were by your mother, were you hoping that the mothers of these youths who had been killed, would join Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR NGCOBO: No.  They would not.  Sometimes I was not thinking before I acted, and would make mistakes.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that the Police acted slowly or not at all, but then you tell us at the same time that you have been trained by the Zulu Police, do you recall saying so, KwaZulu Police or ZP, let me be specific, you called them ZP?

MR NGCOBO: There was no KwaZulu Police at that time in Izingolweni.  They were only deployed in courts.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is why didn't you go to these Police whom you had such good relationship with, who could even train you to report these youths who were for instance, some of them who had killed your mother, why didn't you go to the Zulu Police, the ZP?

MR NGCOBO: You mean at the training.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you mention this to the Police who trained you, that I am coming here for training because I did not have joy from the South African Police?

MR NGCOBO: No I never told the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you were at training that is, because we are not sure, and you are not, when you were trained, whether before the killings or after the killings, but you were trained at some stage.

MR NGCOBO: In the area I was not the only one who was chosen.  We were three and there were some who were trained before and after us.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis were you chosen to be trained, what was the real reason therefore that you were chosen to be trained?

MR NGCOBO: I was chosen in the area.  My brother Sipho was involved.  He is the one who took us there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to disturb you, but who chose you for training?

MR NGCOBO: Amakhosi were being attacked by the ANC people.  The Commission will remember will remember that this is what was happening. People were chosen from different areas to go and train so that they could protect these amakhosi.  We believed that the ANC was against the amakhosi.

CHAIRPERSON: You had according to you, to protect the amakhosi, protect them from what?

MR NGCOBO: The Amakhosi were protected against the ANC. The Commissioner will remember that the amakhosi were attacked by the ANC supporters at that time, and it was decided that they should be protected. We believed that the ANC was against amakhosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Which iNkosi had you to protect, because when we read the indictment for which you are serving in prison, is that there was none protection for any iNkosi but some personal revenge about your mother's killing.

MR NGCOBO: My iNkosi was Khandalesizwe at that time and he was with me when I went to fetch my firearm at Ulundi.

MR MALAN: Could you just repeat that name please.

CHAIRPERSON: The name of that INkosi.

MR NGCOBO: Khandalesizwe.  His other name is Sikhosiphi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanda?

MR NGCOBO: Khandalesizwe.

ADV MOTATA: When I listen to your evidence Mr Ngcobo you mention that the leaders Zulu for instance gave you a gun. My Question is when I further listened you used a .32 and again you used a 7.65 where did you obtain the other, I am not interested which one? Where did you obtain the other? Because they gave you one for self-protection.

MR NGCOBO: This other one belonged to Mbambo.  It was found in his possession when the police arrested him in Sydenham.  That was a .32.  Both used the same ammunition.  A.32 is a revolver and a 7.65 has a cartridge.

ADV MOTATA: So when you went to Ulundi to fetch weapons what did you do with those weapons when you accompanied Khandaleziswe?

MR NGCOBO: I was protecting the chief with these firearms.  I was protecting him on his visits to the tribal court or when he visited the President.  I was also using them for my own political ends.

ADV MOTATA: In other words the weapons you fetched from Ulundi?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  I was using my firearm and the one belonging to my friend.  I never used the one I got from Ulundi because there was no need for me to use it because it was a legal firearm.

ADV MOTATA: Lastly Mr Ngcobo you told us that the hierarchy of Inkatha Free Party preached peace. You recall saying so?

MR NGCOBO: Please repeat the question?  Yes they preached peace.  That is not what I was doing, however.  I used to attack and also protect myself.

ADV MOTATA: From your evidence it would appear that you did more attacks than protection? Would I be right in so gaining that impression?

MR NGCOBO: I was also being attacked.  It is just that these people could not get hold of me.  Before I was sentenced, they used to attack me extensively, in the shop and all over.  Some of my attackers are in prison with me.  After I had killed, they attacked me while I was no longer attacking.  I was now a target.

CHAIRPERSON: You were never shot by anybody?

MR NGCOBO: No. They were trying their best with bombs and everything, but could not get hold of me. They also attacked me at Murchison but failed to hurt me. I reported some of the attacks to the police.

ADV MOTATA: But in all those attacks on you, you never killed anybody other than those you hunted down?

MR NGCOBO: When they attacked me at the shop, they killed a Cele boy. It was Ziphakamiso Nyawose and Thokozani Mbhele, and some of their friends. They killed Guduza Mbhele. I retaliated when I was in the shop, and struck Thokozani Mbhele. He died on the scene and I went to fetch the police. Detective Breedt is the one who attended this complaint and those boys were then arrested.

ADV MOTATA: Did you report these attacks on people, that is the killing rather to your leaders?

MR NGCOBO: No it was difficult to report to them to my leaders because they were against their policy.  I knew that they would not have liked it.  I believed that what I was doing was right.  It is not easy to report tot he leaders such things.  They were not the ones who were being attacked.  I am the one who was supposed to defend myself..

ADV MOTATA: That is correct Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson I have got no further questions. Thank you Mr Ngcobo.

MR MALAN: Sorry Judge just one question following from Mr Motata's questioning. The firearms that the KwaZulu government or police issued you, that was after the killings? After your crimes. You again got weapons from the KwaZulu government or the KwaZulu police?

MR NGCOBO: I went to training when violence was still going on.

MR MALAN: Also just for the record of your attorney on page 54 of the bundle the judge observes as what to him is disturbing in the extreme is that only 3 months before you stood trial you went for training for 2 weeks and you were issued with two firearms even licensed by the KwaZulu government from your Inkatha organisation he says. What happened to those arms?

MR NGCOBO: The ones I got from Ulundi? I had them when I was arrested in Scottburgh. After I was arrested, I gave them to my brother Sipho, to take them back to Ulundi because they were licensed. I do not know whether he took them back or not. I never asked him.

MR MALAN: If I read the portion of the judgment correctly it seems as if you got your training after you have already committed most of the crimes.

MR NGCOBO: I cannot dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to put in re-examination?

MR DE KLERK: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much. You are excused. WITNESS IS EXCUSED.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any other witnesses?

MR DE KLERK: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink are you calling witnesses?

MR BRINK: No Chairman I am not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk is there anything you wish to say in addressing us?