Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the statement, what page?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: It starts on page 229 and it goes up to page 231.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Is the date there at page 231 January 1999?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that's 1999.   Now similarly, in this document you have stated that you killed no person.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I said so and I'm saying that was a lie.

MR STRYDOM: And again why did you, on the 18th of January, stated that you'd killed no person?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I said I was scared that some people might react towards this if I ever mentioned that I killed a child.

MR STRYDOM: Are you still scared?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give an explanation why you are now prepared to say that you killed a child, whilst on the 18th you were not prepared to say so?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Will you please repeat your question, sir?

MR STRYDOM: You said that on the 18th when you made the statement, you were scared to admit that you've killed a child.   Today you are prepared to admit it.   Now the question is, what changed your mind?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: What made me to change my mind, it is according to the way that Mr Dlamini mentioned that, because it looked like he saw me when I was doing this, though I wanted to make it a point no-one saw, I admitted because Mr Dlamini mentioned that I did that, though I was not, it was not my intention to be seen doing that.

MR STRYDOM: Now, I'm going to read your affidavit in the light of the changed instruc..., or the difference in what you're saying now and what's contained, so you can tell us which portions of this affidavit you still stand by and which portions you deny and say it's wrong.   In your affidavit you said that
"During 1992, I was staying at Kwamadala Hostel",
and can I just ask you, I'm going to continue and then if you say you don't agree with something, just stop me and say you don't agree with that statement, I don't have to ask you all the time.
"Earlier I stayed with my mother at 175 Zone 8, Sebokeng.   During 1990 my mother's house were burnt by the comrades.   She was a member of the IFP.   We had to flee out of Sebokeng and both went to Kwamadala Hostel.    Before I went there, I was already a member of the IFP.   At the time when I went to Kwamadala Hostel, I was only 15 years old.   In the hostel, I..."
... (intervention).

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: In 1990, I was not 15 years old.   If I can remember well, I think I was about, I was 13 or 14 years old, 13 or 14 years.

MR STRYDOM: Just to clear that point, your date of birth, is that the 16th of April 1976?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"In the hostel, I further became aware of the problems between the ANC and the IFP.   The problems escalated.   I couldn't attend school anymore, I couldn't move freely (see also my statement regarding gross human violations annexed hereto, marked X).   Approximately a week before the attack on Boipatong, I was at a meeting which was addressed by Mr Mkhize.   During this meeting I heard of the possibility of an attack.   On the 17th of June 1992, we all were called to the stadium.   I took my assegai and went along to Boipatong to attack the people.   I was scared, but went nevertheless.   I killed nobody, nor injured anybody."

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: That is a lie, the fact that I did not kill a person there, that is a lie.

MR STRYDOM: Do you stand by the evidence you gave earlier on during your testimony today about the person you killed?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, as Mr Dlamini had indicated, I am not saying that because I heard him saying so, he said something that he saw, he mentioned something that he saw with his own eyes and I know very well that I did that.
MR STRYDOM
"I threw a burning tyre in one of the houses.  I was in Damara Quonquo's group.   He had an AK47..."
no, no:-
"He fired shots with an AK47.   I don't know if he has hit or did hit anybody.   Darkie had a shotgun, or "'n haelgeweer", and he also fired shots.   I further saw that people got killed, but didn't see who were responsible for that.   I moved through Boipatong and eventually I left with the group.   Although I..."
and that must read not "die", "nie":-
"Although I did not kill people in Boipatong, I agreed with the attack and associated me with it.  I only heard afterwards about all the people that died and got injured, and I'm very sorry about what happened, especially I'm sorry about the people that died.    I ask for forgiveness."
So is it only those portions you've already indicated that you want to change in this affidavit?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: What I wanted to change in this affidavit is the fact that the statement that I did not kill a person and the statement that I did not enter into the houses.

MR STRYDOM: In the statement you make reference that you saw other people, how they got killed, can you give us more particulars about that?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I saw people dying, I saw dead people there.   The person that I can remember very well that I went past his or her body on the way, I suspect that he was shot at by Damara because I heard the gunshot and it rang like an automatic firearm.   After that, we proceeded, I saw a person lying down on the ground and I could see that this person was dead.

MR STRYDOM: Can you indicate, at the beginning stages of the attack or later on, or what can you say about that?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: As we were entering the Boipatong, that happened, the very first person to fire was Damara, his firearm was the first one to shoot.   That's what I can say.

MR STRYDOM: Now, when you went into the houses and stabbed the child, was that towards the end of the attack or the beginning stages?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: It was on - that happened on our way out, because I was afraid, I was very scared to get into the house, because we moved around the township and we met next to the squatter camp or shacks, I heard someone shouting, "Let's go, let's go, it's late now", because the people thought that the police would come and find us there.    We left the place.   I went back.   On my way back, I was very angry.   At the same time, I did not want the people to see me doing something.   I told myself that I wanted to do this alone, without anyone seeing me.   Unfortunately Richard Dlamini saw me, as he has mentioned here that he saw me stabbing the child.

MR STRYDOM: Now... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, (indistinct).   If, as I understand your evidence, you wanted to hide what you did?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the time you thought that no-one saw you?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I thought no-one saw me, because even the house that I went into, the door was open, it was right inside, I went inside and my intention to get into the house was to loot something, because I saw people looting, I went there to take something for myself and leave the place, but I saw this child that was lying in the house, sleeping in the house, and Dlamini wanted to take cover behind this child, but I saw that he was wasting time, because my brother also died there.   We ran away thereafter with Dlamini.   I think he thought that I was - I wanted to stab him, because I came behind this child.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but - and because you thought that someone didn't see you, that is why, in your application and in your affidavit, to which you have deposed very recently, you didn't reveal the fact that you had killed someone?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that Dlamini has told us that he saw you stabbing the child, you then decided to tell us that you did kill a child?