Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-10

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.  I am saying that I would not have followed them closely, what I want to say here is they were extremely dangerous to the community for me to follow them closely because they could have shot.  I did not conceal my firearm, they would have shot at me, that is the reason why I did not follow them closely.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter whether you followed them closely or you didn't follow them closely?  Isn't the fact that you did follow them?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And why did you follow them knowing that they were dangerous?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I followed them so that they could take the money back to the shop, that is the reason why I followed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it normal practice for SDU members to be that polite either to members of the Toaster Gang or people that were perceived by SDU members to be their political opponents?  Was it a normal practice for your unit to be that polite to expect people when they've done an infraction to be able to ...[indistinct].  I hope the answer will be as good as you ...[indistinct].

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you.  These Toaster Gang members were such that one would not have approached them in case they did something bad or rob the community of something.  One would not have gone to them to request them to take those things back.  They used to take these things to Vusimosi Hostel, the base of the IFP and if one went there to enquire one would be asked to which party one belonged and if one said one belonged to the ANC one would not get those things back and one would not be able to come back to the township, instead one would be killed.  We used to report to the Tembisa Police Station about such problems and the police would tell us about the assortment of weapons that these gang members were having and they would arrest these gang members and these boys would later on in the evenings be released and we ended up not knowing what to do with them.  That is the reason why I shot Boy.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Interpreter.  I just hear you're saying that's the reason why you shot Boy, you still haven't just crisply answered why did you follow them?  Did you follow them really with the intention of politely speaking to them to return the items that they had forcefully taken from their victims knowing that these are members of the Toaster Gang or did you follow them for a reason that you since you have yet to disclose to this Committee?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I followed them because as I stated earlier on, I wanted them to take the money back to the shop.  It was not my aim to shoot them, my intention was for them to give me the money.  I didn't want them to give it to me actually, I wanted them to take it back to the shop themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshaba, I hope it has been made patently clear to you what this Committee does, it's work that we only deal with people who have committed offences, who admit to having committed offences and who are able to satisfy us that those offences were committed as a result of a political objective which they sought to achieve.  I hope your attorney, sorry your counsel, has read the Act and in consulting with you advised you of the information that you will have to give this Committee to enable your application to succeed?  We don't deal with people who are not offenders, we give amnesty because people are admitting to having committed and intended to have committed acts, offences or omissions and can prove that those acts, offences or omissions are acts associated with a political objective.  This Committee has already heard evidence of how the Toaster Gang operated in Tembisa and the havoc they reaped in that community.  Are you saying that you would go to people who are dangerous all by yourself and expect them when you politely request them to return something that they had forcefully taken from their victims, the persons that you have described as being very, very dangerous and that was the only reason you followed them?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes, that is the reason that prompted me to pursue them, there was nothing that I could have done because this is something they used to do often times.  I was sacrificing my life because children were no longer able to attend school, they were being raped, I was sacrificing my life.  If they were to kill me that would be it.  I was prepared to follow them to their destination.

CHAIRPERSON: Just explain to me how you were sacrificing your life and how following the three persons would have made the townships safer by following them only with one objective of asking them politely to return the items they had forcefully taken from their victims?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: How would you be sacrificing your life by merely following the persons who had forcefully taken items from one victim Ndlandla and robbed a shop next to your home?  How would that amount to sacrificing your life and you've gone on to say you wanted to make sure that the children are not raped and I suppose your intention was to defend your community?  How would just going to people and asking them politely to return the items they had forcefully taken from their victims be to your community's defence when you are dealing with dangerous, dangerous persons like the members of the Toaster Gang?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I don't know how to put it.  As I have stated earlier on that these Toaster Gang members were used to this, this was a daily occurrence.  There was no longer school attendance in the township.  I had told myself that I concluded solely that I was going to pursue them to their destination.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not your intention to kill these people in order to make sure that you reduce the number of persons who were terrorising your community?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: No, that was not my intention.  My intention was that they should take the money back to the shop.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Seshaba, if they had taken the money back to the shop what would you have done then?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I would have no reason to fight them or shoot them had they taken the money back to the shop, I would just leave them.

ADV BOSMAN: But how would this have protected your community because you would then have let them loose on the community again?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: It was very difficult for the community to get back their things from the Toaster Gang, it was very difficult.  They were scared of them, they would not approach them at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But what were the functions of the SDU members?  You've just stated in your evidence that your function was to protect and defend your community.  Did that defence and protection not extend to killing and eliminating members of the Toaster Gang?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.  As I stated earlier on that the Toaster Gang were such that even if one apprehended them and took them to the police station they were released, they were able to flee from the police station, they fled from the Tembisa Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not interested in that part of the evidence, it has no bearing to the application that we are dealing with.  Now if the instructions extended to killing members of the Toaster Gang, why would you not have killed them when a member of the community points them out and he tells you that a crime has just been committed by these members and you had been appointed as a member of the self defence unit to protect the community against such persons?  Why would you not have killed them?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I would have taken them to their community which would in turn decide what to do with them.