Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

ADV MOTATA: Yes I say I don't know if I heard you correctly, you said the person mentioned here, written down here is not Ben, I say who wrote this out, for instance this 11 who wrote out what we see there Extension 2, Commander Extension 2, who wrote that out?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes it's true that we got instructions from the Commander of Section 2 but I don't know anything about Meneer giving us instructions that I stated that clearly that Ben gave us instruction, Meneer was just a commander that was full time and the one was actually assisting Ben, this is new to me.

CHAIRPERSON: All the question he's asking, who filled in this?

ADV DE JAGER: Who wrote it there, whose handwriting?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: That is not my handwriting.  The person who was there was George, he is the one who fetched me from my home.

MR SWANEPOEL: So do I understand you correctly that Meneer had nothing to do with this, the events you're giving evidence about?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when Ben gave you instructions did he tell you who to go and kidnap?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes he did.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right now look at page 189 of your application, in paragraph C the name of your victims is asked and you say "I know", why do you say so?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: This is new to me also.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now look at page 193 of your application, is that your signature at the bottom?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is my signature.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you give your signature under oath at the police station as appears on page 194?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: No, I did not take any oath, I was just ordered to sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1 that also happens.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman.
	Now look at page 190 of your application.   You gave some exposition of your activities as a member of the SDU on that page, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Will you please read it to me because I do not understand English.  Please read out to me.

ADV MOTATA: The other thing before you proceed Mr Swanepoel, we already know that he did not fill in this form.  I say when doing that, bear that in mind.  I'm not curtailing you in any way.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.   Why is this event that you gave evidence about not mentioned anywhere in this application?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: I don't know that is a question I have in mind also.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, in any event, what did Ben tell you to go and do?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: He told us to go and fetch Sigongele from Section 5 and shoot her.

MR SWANEPOEL: He did tell you to fetch anybody else and shoot anybody else?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is true, it was Sibongele and her sister.  At Extension 5 it would be Sibongele and Sibongele only.

MR SWANEPOEL: Sorry what did you say?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: The instruction was issued to fetch two people but I at Extension 5 there was only Sibongele and her sister was in her house at Extension 2 and we went there also.  At Extention 5 we went to fetch Sibongele and her sister was somewhere else and we went there also to fetch her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now when you fetched her and you took her away from Sibongele's house, did everybody go along to the house in Section F?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: The people who were in my company yes, except Mogoera, Vuya and Jaba.  The commander told them to go back because they were not armed and the people who were armed had to proceed.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you were armed.  You were armed?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes I had a firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: And Joseph?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes he was also armed.

ADV DE JAGER: What kind of firearm did he have?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was a pistol.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you proceeded to the house in Section F you stayed outside the whole time, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: You also gave evidence that when after Doctor left and M'Africa left, Jabu came from a certain direction and entered the house and you heard them arguing inside, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now tell us, what did you hear inside the house before Doctor left?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: I heard nothing before Doctor left, the only thing that we were waiting for in the house, we were waiting to hear the gun shots, that's all.

MR SWANEPOEL: But you heard nothing at all, not even screams?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: Even though if someone had screamed you would have heard that?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes we would be able to hear if someone is screaming?

ADV MOTATA: How far were you when you stood guard from the actual door of the house, how far were you?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Those yards are so small, we were inside the yard, maybe it was a distance from these tables to that corner of the hall there, the distance from the wall and the others were actually surrounding and the others were watching from the other side.

INTERPRETER: He pointed the distance from the corner of the table towards the corner of that wall just behind the table that the table where the panel is, Sir.

MR SAMUELS: Shall we estimate at four metres?  Five metres?  Eight metres.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then all of a sudden Doctor came running out of the house?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then Mafrica came - left the house as well is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Did Doctor say anything when he left the house?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: He said nothing.  He left running.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then Jabu came into the house from another direction, is that right?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you hear shots inside the house while Jabu was there?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: How many shots.

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Four times, four shots.

MR SWANEPOEL: And then, did Jabu leave?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes he left after his firearm ran short of bullets and he instructed Mdmase to finish off the job.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think you'll have much success in cross-examining him, he was sitting in the hall listening to the previous witness so he know about the running out of bullets, he knows everything that the previous ones have testified about, he is repeating the same evidence.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please, Mr Commissioner, the only part that I'm getting to is the part where the one girl apparently ran away, escaped after Jabu had left the house.  That's new firstly and secondly, in the light of Jabu's evidence highly unlikely.

CHAIRPERSON: Why unlikely?

MR SWANEPOEL: Well he testified that he shot both of them, he shot Sibongele twice and that he left both of them lying on the floor instructing one of these colleagues to go in and finish the job and in that sequence somewhere the one still ran away got carried back and then got shot at again.  It doesn't take the matter any further apart from credibility.  As you please Mr Chairperson.
	Now you heard as was correctly pointed out by the Commissioner that you were in the audience when Jabu gave evidence and he said when he left they were both lying on the floor and they were both shot, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think for the purposes of the question and what seems to be the point you're leading up to, Jabu also said is that he saw one of them moving so it wasn't as if to say the one was shot and totally incapacitated and hence he gave instructions or asked someone else to finish the job as he put it.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairperson.  So when Jabu left, both of the girls were shot, both were lying on the floor, Jabu saw one of them moving and that's why he instructed one of your colleagues to finish the jobs, did you hear that?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes I heard that.