Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I am prepared to answer that question during an amnesty application, but this is too near the amnesty application itself.

MR GOOSEN: General Joubert, I understand the concern, but let me explain the question.  Perhaps that could set your mind at rest.  I am not asking you for an indication for who specifically approved any particular operation that was carried out and I am not asking you to get into the detail of the incidents for which you seek amnesty.
 What I am asking you is as an element of the target identification process that you explain in your plan, was it necessary that individual approval be sought for specific operations?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: Fine, all right.  This plan of yours, you were instructed to devise, was it approved by the Chief of the South African Defence Force and could you indicate under what circumstances it was so approved?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, once again, I devised this plan.  During those times the circumstances were such that all people were busy and as I have mentioned in my application, it was very difficult to contact the Head of the Defence Force to discuss this plan with him on a formal basis.
 Because we were pressed for time, one evening at a function I discussed this with General Geldenhuys.  I explained it to him in broad terms and he told me, just as I've mentioned it in my application, he said it sounded good.  I accepted it like that and with that remark General Geldenhuys gave me the authorisation  to continue with these operations.  That was how I interpreted General Geldenhuys. Whether that was what General Geldenhuys saw in this regard, that was a different matter, but yes, I did discuss this with him.

MR GOOSEN: And according to you, it was approved?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Well, I was under the impression that it was approved.

MR GOOSEN: That would have been, you don't set out a date in the amnesty application, but given the fact that you indicate it was early 1986 and in anticipation of the broadening of the state of emergency, we assume that this would have taken place approximately mid-1986, or by mid-1986, would that be correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, it would not be mid, it will not be in the middle of 1986, but more to July.  More or less during July.

MR GOOSEN: More or less at the time that the National state of emergency was declared and I think that was the 12th of June 1986, more or less.  So it could be around that date?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, that is correct.

MR GOOSEN: Operations were in fact launched in accordance with this plan, is that correct?  Again I am not asking you for the details and the specifics, but that emerges from the amnesty application?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: Correct, yes.  Was it at any stage brought to your attention either by the Chief of the South African Defence Force or by any other senior or more senior officer, if there are, that the operations launched by Special Forces in collaboration with the South African Police in accordance with this plan, did not have the approval of the Chief of the South African Defence Force?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, these specific operations I did not get specific approval for these from the Head of the South African Defence Force because I was under the impression that he had given me authorisation to do that.  I understood that he trusted my judgement.

MR GOOSEN: A key element of the target identification process that you set out in your plan, was that you would have to establish that the operation in which you would be supporting the South African Police was in fact an operation of the South African Police and that it enjoyed the, that it had been authorised appropriately.  At any stage, was it at any stage brought to your attention, raised with you that the operations which you were authorising in accordance with this plan, were not approved of either by the Chief of the South African Defence Force or by his equivalent in the South African Police?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I know, Mr Chairman, it was not approved by the Head of the Defence Force.

MR GOOSEN: No, that he did not approve.  I know that you've indicated that you didn't go and specifically ask him in relation to a particular operation.  What I am asking you is, subsequent to carrying out a particular operation and those operations were carried out in accordance with this plan, were you at any stage confronted by the fact that the Chief of the South African Defence Force or his equivalent in the South African Police clearly did not approve of the actions that you were carrying out, operations that you were carrying out in accordance with the plan that you had devised?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I was under the impression that these type of operations had to be approved by the Police.  I was under that impression.
 And I accepted that at least it would have been cleared and approved at the level of the Head of the Security Police.  It appeared then that after one specific incident that that was not the case and then I immediately took action and developed a procedure to get these authorisation channels right.

MR GOOSEN: Yes, and in relation to that specific matter is it not so that your application indicates that General Geldenhuys was in fact aware of that particular instance and was then party to the development of a more water tight command channel in respect of the operation?  Is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, well it was reported.  I reported it first to General Gleeson and General Gleeson then reported it to General Geldenhuys and then we started to get the ball rolling to get this procedure out.

MR GOOSEN: So it had appeared that there was a hitch if you like in respect of a specific matter which when that came to light, corrective steps were taken in that regard?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: And those involved the Chief of the South African Defence Force?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: And also the Acting Chief, General Gleeson at that time, correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: You the end of 1988 as you  indicated, you were promoted to a different position.  DSI, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Deputy Chief of Staff.

MR GOOSEN: Deputy Staff Intelligence.  Deputy Staff Intelligence?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: I beg your pardon, Chief of Staff Intelligence.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Deputy.

MR GOOSEN: I beg your pardon, I didn't want to promote you unduly.    Throughout your period when you were Officer Commanding of Special Forces, did either the Chief of the South African Defence Force or Minister of Defence or any other Officer come to you and say General Joubert, what you are doing with your command as Commander of Special Forces, covert, clandestine operations involving the elimination of targets, inside the country is totally and utterly unacceptable to us and is not approved of.  Did that ever happen?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, that did not happen.  But the fact that the Head of the Defence Force realised that a procedure had to be developed and this procedure was developed, was an indication that he was not satisfied..

MR GOOSEN: In respect of that, the approval in respect of that particular operation?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: Yes, but what happened was a procedure for obtaining the necessary approval was put in place?  Is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: There wasn't an objection to the principle that one could in fact engage in clandestine operations directed at the elimination of targets identified inside the country, correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes.