Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR VISSER: Sorry - recruit.  I stand corrected.  "Recruit, alternatively, if there's a problem, bring back if it's possible".

MR KOOPEDI: Right.  Do we agree that your order was firstly to recruit this person?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it was the instruction: "Go and recruit him and if you do not succeed, take him."

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you recruit him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We did not try to recruit him, because of the reasons that I've given.  On our way we thought this man is an MK member and we don't know how dangerous is he where he was, that's where we decided to go and ask for assistance from the Lesotho police.

MR KOOPEDI: So if you, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are given an order to do recruiting, if it fails you're given an option and you decide not to act or not to execute that order, were you not defying the order?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We were given an instruction that is twofold, to recruit, if not, come with him.  I think we managed to fulfil one of the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: That's not how I understood it.  Your evidence is you are asked to go and recruit, if you do not succeed you then bring him.  But you have not recruited in this instance and you go into the other alternative.  Now I'd like to know if that's not defying an order?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, I did not defy any order.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Well I put it to you that you defied this order and that your subsequent actions were not based on any order, you acted on your own.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not agree with what you're saying, we executed one of the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you were in this room where Mbulelo was found together with two ladies, you have conceded that there may have been a third lady, so I don't think there's a problem ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Not a third lady, a second lady, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: A second lady, meaning there might have been three people.  Was anyone assaulted in there by you or the Lesotho police?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Was anyone threatened in that room?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Everything went peacefully, police searched, found a grenade and Mbulelo agreed to be arrested peacefully?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it is not common for the police to assault a person when they arrest him.  They explained themselves who they were, they searched the house, they found the grenade, they told KK: "We are arresting you man".  No-one of them assaulted him or threatened him.

MR KOOPEDI: And can you recall who were the two Lesotho policeman or Basotho policemen that helped you on that day?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, not by names.  We were calling each - when we met with the policemen from Lesotho, we called each other "swari", brother-in-law.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's go to this Roma Police Station ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, would this be a convenient time just to take a five minutes break for the Interpreters to catch their breath?

MR KOOPEDI: It is Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ... I don't know whether to call it a room or chambers but I'm accustomed to chambers, so I'm comfortable with chambers.  But just to be focused, you were asking a question about Roma, let's just finish that question on Roma Police Station, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: (cont)
	I must say I already had thrown away my books.  
	Mr Thulo, when you got to the Roma Police Station, did you say you remained in the car and Jantjie went out?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you also spoke about this person whom you know from some headquarters.  Who is this person?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, this person referred to me as "swari" as I have mentioned, and I also called him "swari".  In other words, brother-in-law".  That's how we knew each other.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay Chairperson, that's what I wanted to find out about this Roma Police Station, the name of this person from Head Office.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  What time would be best?  Ten, nine-thirty?  Just to be on the safe side, Mr Visser shouldn't we make it ten?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, we are normally here earlier, but perhaps if you will grant the indulgence of starting at 10 o'clock, I would appreciate it.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We have come to the hour past four and we will adjourn today to tomorrow at ten.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS