Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-06

MR STEWART: (?)   Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I would like to respond on behalf of Mr Luthuli to the three requests that were put by Mr Falconer that relate directly to him.
The first one was that of an undertaking not to speak to the press.  At this stage Mr Luthuli makes no such undertaking.  He will speak to the press as advised and cautiously and in showing no disrespect to the Commission.  That is something on which further discussion can take place, of course.
Secondly, in regard to the apology, Mr Luthuli makes no apology for the statement he made.  He reiterates and he stands by that statement which was that Minister Buthelezi must have known about the hit squad activities that took place and that were carried out and conducted by the Caprivi trainees.
In the event that Mr Falconer's client has any remedies, those would be in the Criminal or Civil Law rather than before this Commission.
 /As
1A As far as the fourth matter is concerned which was the explanation as to what took place, that explanation has already been given initially by Mr Macadam and subsequently by myself.  It was not something which I would have termed a press conference, but rather a huddle in which certain matters were clarified.
Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR LASICH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman, at this stage I am instructed we will continue our participation in these proceedings, but we will be taking further instructions as to possible remedies.
Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Lasich.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: I call Mr Zweli Dlamini.

MR LYSTER: Mr Dlamini, can you hear me and can you understand me through your earphones?

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: Yes, I can hear you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you.  It may take you a couple of minutes to get used to this system, but I'm sure you will, like the other witnesses, have - can you give us your full names, please?

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: (Sworn States) (Through Interpreter)

MR MACADAM: Mr Dlamini, how old are you at this stage?

WITNESS:   I'm 29 years old.

MR MACADAM: Is it correct that you grew up in the Hammarsdale area of KwaZulu-Natal?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR MACADAM: And in the early 1980s, did you become a member of

MR MACADAM: /any

MR MACADAM: 1A any political organisation in the area?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR MACADAM: Which organisation?

WITNESS:   Inkatha.

MR MACADAM: What position did you hold with this organisation?

WITNESS:   I was in the Youth League.

MR MACADAM: And while you were in the Youth League of this organisation, was there any violence in the area where you resided at that time?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: What type of violence was this?

WITNESS:   It was the violence between the UDF and Inkatha.

MR MACADAM: What form did that violence take?

WITNESS:   It was just a fighting between the UDF and Inkatha.

MR MACADAM: And you yourself, did you take part in that violence at all?

WITNESS:   I didn't.

MR MACADAM: Now in 1986, were you at any stage approached or did you of your own accord consider a career in the KwaZulu Police Force?

WITNESS:   Yes, ... (inaudible) came.  He is the person who approached us and he was recruiting for people who were coming to join the police, the KwaZulu Police.

MR MACADAM: And this person whom you've named, what position did he hold?

WITNESS:   He was the chairman at Inkatha.

MR MACADAM: Did he hold any position in the KwaZulu Police itself?

WITNESS:   He didn't.

MR MACADAM: And what did this person then tell you?

WITNESS:   He told us that he needed people to be trained to become KwaZulu Police.

MR MACADAM: And what did you do when he told you this?

WITNESS:   He wrote down my name and told us that he's going to come back and we'll be taken for training to become KwaZulu Police.

MR MACADAM: /Where

MR MACADAM: 1A Where did you - did you go anywhere to receive this training that he mentioned?

WITNESS:   Yes, we did.

MR MACADAM: Where did you go to?

WITNESS:   A Kombi from Ulundi came.  They took us to Ulundi.

MR MACADAM: And where specifically in Ulundi did you go?

WITNESS:  We went to a place called Nhlungwane.

MR MACADAM: What type of place was that specifically?

WITNESS:   It was a government place with a few houses.

MR MACADAM: Was it in an official KwaZulu Police building?

WITNESS:  It wasn't.

MR MACADAM: Okay.  Could you just explain more or less what this place was?  You said it wasn't an official police building.

WITNESS:   It was just houses.  I would say they look like government offices, like for the Department of Works(?).

MR MACADAM: And were there any persons in charge of this facility when you arrived there?

WITNESS:   Yes, we did find people there.

MR MACADAM: Who were those persons?

WITNESS:   We found Xesibe(?), he was in charge of the camp.

MR MACADAM: Was he a member of the KwaZulu Police, or not?

WITNESS:   That's what I knew.

MR MACADAM: And any other persons other than him?

WITNESS:   Yes, there were many people whom I didn't know.

MR MACADAM: And what happened after you had arrived there?   What took place in that camp?

WITNESS:   We used to sing Inkatha song and we were also taught about Inkatha.

MR MACADAM: And was any explanation given to you precisely what you were going to do or what would become of you eventually?

WITNESS:   There wasn't.  They told us that we were going to be police.

MR MACADAM: /And

MR MACADAM: 1A And in that period, did you fill in an application form to become a member of the KwaZulu Police?

WITNESS:   I didn't.

MR MACADAM: Were your fingerprints taken?

WITNESS:   They were not taken.

MR MACADAM: Were you at any stage asked whether you had a criminal record or been involved in any illegal activity?

WITNESS:   I wasn't asked.

MR MACADAM: Now you talk about you and the others there singing Inkatha songs and being told about Inkatha.  Were any other political parties discussed at all at that stage?

WITNESS:   We were only taught the Inkatha policies and songs.

MR MACADAM: And how long did you remain in that camp approximately?

WITNESS:   About two weeks.

MR MACADAM: Where did you go to from that camp?

WITNESS:   We went back - we went to Ulundi Airport where we found the plane which took us to a place which I didn't know.  We landed in a place which was a bush area.

MR MACADAM: What happened once you arrived at this strange place that you were unfamiliar with?

WITNESS:   We alighted and trucks came.  We get into this truck.

MR MACADAM: And where were you taken to?

WITNESS:   They took us to a terrain, a bushy terrain.

MR MACADAM: Once you arrived there, what did you find?

WITNESS:   We just found this bushy - open area which was bushy.  We stopped there and we found that there were people around there.

MR MACADAM: Who were these people?

WITNESS:   I didn't know them at that time.  We stayed with them then.  We were given tents which we have to erect and use as sleeping places.

MR MACADAM: And was there any persons in charge of this camp?

MR MACADAM: /---  Yes,

MR MACADAM: 1A

WITNESS:   Yes, there was.

MR MACADAM: Who was?

WITNESS:   It was Madlanduna.

MR MACADAM: Is he attending these proceedings today?  Do you see him, this person whom you've described as Madlanduna?  If you - there are various people sitting behind you.  Do you see him at all there?

WITNESS:   Yes, he's around.

MR MACADAM: Point him out to the Commission.

WITNESS:   He's the third one from the right-hand.

MR MACADAM: Possibly the witness can be asked to approach the person whom he points out ... [break in recording].

MR STEWART: (?)   Mr Chairman, I don't think that any issue is raised about the identity of Madlanduna Luthuli.

MR LYSTER: Ja, I think just for the sake of completeness, Mr Macadam is a stickler for detail.  Thank you.