Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: He did take a statement from you. Did you ever appear at any of his official hearing of this matter at the inquest or at the subsequent case?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I know there was a case in the Supreme Court, I can't remember whether I testified in the inquest.  Did you ever testify in any case, did you testify at the Supreme Court?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No we didn't testify in the Supreme Court.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you personally did not testify in any of these matters, in any official hearings?

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson the witness said he cannot remember whether he testified at the inquest or not.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What I'm asking is whether he testified at any of the hearings regarding the Trojan Horse 
If you want to get the help of your attorney or advocate I can give you time...(intervention)

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I can't remember...(intervention)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You can't remember which one it was but did you appear in any of these matters, any of the hearings regarding the Trojan Horse?  Surely you'd remember that, whether or not you did appear?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I can't remember.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: That's very difficult to believe, I mean it was a big case, people were called to give evidence, you can't remember whether you appeared.  I'm not asking you which one you appeared in.  I'm asking you simply whether you appeared at any of the official hearings of this matter. It's simple question.

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson the witness is clearly having difficulties.  I think there is a misunderstanding. He's talking about giving evidence and the Commissioner's talking about appearing.  I think the witness made it clear he appeared as an accused in the Supreme Court.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You did appear in the Supreme Court?

ADV VAN ZYL: Yes that he testified.  Now normally you don't appear at an inquest, you are only subpoenaed to give evidence at an inquest.  he can't remember whether he gave evidence at that inquest or not in 1988.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But you appeared at the Supreme Court, that's what you s...(intervention)

ADV VAN ZYL: I'm sorry he appeared at the Supreme Court but they were never called upon to give evidence in the Supreme Court.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So your name was on the list of people who were called or were supposed to be called?  Do you confirm that?  Among the accused, your name was there?
I'm just trying to figure out why your name was missing on- it doesn't really matter I'm not going to test you yet.  
The last question I'm going to ask you, Mr Loedolff ...(intervention)

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I was one of the accused.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.  Mr Loedolff gave Mr Vermeulen instructions on what to do.  Did you yourself ever receive instructions from Mr Loedolff?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I never received instructions from Mr Loedolff.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: The purpose of this operation was for you to go and effect an arrest.  I assume that before you left Mr Vermeulen explained to you you had a plan on how to affect arrests.  What was the plan?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No there wasn't any plan.  We were just told the purpose of the patrol was to affect arrests but there was no specific plan of action.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You were an experienced policeman.  You were told you were going to affect an arrest.  Do you mean to tell me that you didn't see anything wrong with just going into an area to affect arrests without a plan?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I was an experienced policeman and according to me I was under the command of Lt Vermeulen, he was in command of the section and his instructions were to affect arrests and there were no other plans, nothing else did he mention that could perhaps be illegal.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: From what we've heard today, it seems that the only instruction you had was firstly to arm yourselves with AAA, with birdshot and then to shoot, those on the left to the right and those on the right to the left.  It seems to me that that was the only instruction you were given, is that correct?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That was Lt Vermeulen's evidence where he said that the one group should take care not to fire at the other group on the truck.  I can't say whether the evidence which he gave - I don't have any knowledge of that because it happened 12 years ago and I have experienced a lot of trauma in that period.  I can't recall.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you we appreciate that you did remember some of the things that you've told us.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr van Niekerk, your instructions were to go and arrest the trouble-makers, the belhammels as you say.  You've already said that.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That's correct yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Had you been in a crate like this before in the line of duty?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No that was the first incident of this kind.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I think you and I are about the same height, maybe you're a little taller, so I guess the crates would go as far as here. When you were standing how far did the crate go, here?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I'm not entirely sure it could have come up as far as the stomach or the chest, I'm not quite sure about the height of the crates.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Had you rehearsed on how to get out of the crates.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No we didn't rehearse.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Then how did you get out of the crate, I assume that since the crate was here you either had to spring up and come up or hold on to the sides of the crate to get out.  I'm trying to find out did you get out of the crate?  Do you remember?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I was a sportsman for many many years, I played various sports and I went jogging every morning so I was quit fit and to do duty in the Riot Squad you had to be very fit and I was fit at that stage so it wasn't a problem for me to emerge from the crate or to jump down from the truck.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Well tell me exactly how you did it. Would you tell us exactly how you got out of the crate?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Which period specifically, after I emerged from the crate or when?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Well you said that when you emerged out of the crate, observed, fired and then you went to arrest the six people.  I'm just trying to find out how you got out of the crate to go and arrest the six people.  I just want to know how you physically did it, I mean you still look fit even now, but what I'm curious about is whether you jumped and bounced yourself out of the crate which is physically impossible, unless you were standing on a spring, or you held on to the sides of the crate.  It's difficult for me to visualise how all of you got out of the crates.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I think I pressed on the sides of the crate and lifted myself up to get out of the crate.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr van Niekerk, if the shots had not been fired and you all jumped out of the crates, acknowledging that there were only stones and nothing else, do you think you might have been able to arrest anybody? Do you want me to repeat the question?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes please.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: If the shots had not been fired, since your mission was to go and arrest people, if the shots had not been fired and you guys got out of the crates, would you have been able to arrest anybody?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: We first had to avert this attack before we could jump off from the vehicle and arrest the stone-throwers.  You couldn't enter that crowd without firing shots because stones were thrown at you and you first had to put a stop to the stone-throwing before you could ...(intervention)