Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-04

MR WAGENER: Chairman, if I may reply.  The incidents dealt with by the Panel in that hearing took place in the period July 86 apparently until March 87 and although I'm not 100% sure of this, but the way I remember it and this is I must stress what I was told of what happened at that hearing, these landmines were all put or placed in roads where the general public had access.  Completely different to the situation of my client, where the landmine was put on a small game track within an enclosed farm, with no access by the public and specifically not by the military, that's why I say, Mr Chairman and I intend arguing that, but I say we must still hear the evidence of these gentlemen, whether or not the unit of Mr Nondula was not on a frolic of their own.  At the time, November 1985 at the outset of this campaign, where the purpose of the campaign and I assume the instructions of Military Headquarters was as set out on page 327 of your bundle and this unit did not adhere to that at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wagener, Adv Bosman would like to put something.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(totally inaudible - mike turned off, no sound)  Thanks.  As far as Mr Kasrils is concerned, the Committee indicated that they regard Mr Kasrils as an applicant.  Now in the absence of any formal withdrawal of his application by Mr Kasrils, there was no formal withdrawal as far as I recollect, does Mr Kasrils not still enjoy the status of an applicant and if so, if he still enjoys the status of an applicant, what would the position be in regard to a subpoena?  Would it be correct to issue a subpoena to an applicant to come and give evidence?

MR WAGENER: No Mr Chairman, but then it's very simple.  Then I request that this matter be adjourned then for purposes of setting down Mr Kasrils hearing and we will be there.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying, you don't think a subpoena can be issued against Mr Kasrils?

MR WAGENER: If he is an applicant, no, I don't think ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because we can't really afford - they've got their rights haven't they?  Yes.

MR WAGENER: But then he must ...

CHAIRPERSON: Then it must be set down sort of, that's what you're saying.

MR WAGENER: Or otherwise he must formally withdraw his application and then my request that he be subpoenaed still stands.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It's a procedural matter.  Yes, thank you.  I think we'd have to deliberate on this one.  We can't just - well certainly I can't, without deliberating, make an off the cuff decision and if we can adjourn now, I'm not sure how long we'll take or whether we'll even do it now, but there's no point in us just sitting here looking at each other.  We'll adjourn and I don't know whether we'll be starting with the next hearing next time, or when we reconvene, or whether we'll be continuing with this one, but I'll keep in touch with the legal representatives and ask them not to disappear before we have spoken.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We have discussed the matter with the legal representatives regarding the application made by Mr Wagener to subpoena persons, namely Messrs Modise, Moloi and Kasrils.  We have not made a decision as yet.  We would also like to, before making a decision, resolve the question relating to the status of Mr Kasrils vis a vis him being an applicant.  	It's been agreed that we will hand down a written ruling in regard to the application made by Mr Wagener.  If the ruling is to call one or more of the said persons, then that will necessitate a further hearing and if that is the case, then due notice will be given as to where and when such hearing will take place.  If it's decided that it will not be necessary for purposes of arriving at a decision in this matter, to call any of the three persons mentioned, then it's been agreed that written heads of argument will be submitted and a decision will then be handed down after the receipt of such arguments.  So in the circumstances we will be postponing the matter to a date to be arranged, at this stage.  That date to be arranged may never be arranged if the decision is not to call anybody, but we'll be postponing it sine die.  Thank you very much.
	I'd like to, at this stage, thank everybody for their assistance, the legal representatives.  The other matter that we have on the roll, the other application we have already spoken to the legal representatives.  Unfortunately there's been a hitch, one of the applicants is a prisoner and he should have been here yesterday, but we are informed he's just left Leeukop prison in Johannesburg now which will take some time to get here, so that matter will commence tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  We'll commence with the evidence at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning in this hall in the other matter and I apologise for any inconvenience caused by the delay in the start of this matter.  
	Thank you.  We'll now adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS