Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1996-11-20

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Dr Nzimande, your report is clear, such that one cannot - there is nothing ambiguous with your report.  I would like to get your view and your perspective.  Maybe you were not there when Mr Radley Keys gave his own perspective, but amongst the things that he has made mention of he does agree with you that the Seven Day War was not a war as such, or probably a war from the two groups, but this was planned by the apartheid government.  But there is one other thing that he said, and I think that is of fundamental importance with regard to UDF in 1983, that some of the things that took place and transpired it's known that UDF took people who were serving under the government, like the police, civil servants, and so forth as enemies, first.  Secondly, fighting with the apartheid government UDF used weapons like boycotts, or means like boycotts, stay-aways.  To make that even more successful they used to discourage people who were not complying with the arrangements.  It  even got to the time where the Inkatha got devastated and they started retaliating.  Now, my question to you,

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Dr Nzimande, is maybe as an ANC member is there in retrospect not a time where you've looked and decided that probably it has been our fault there?  If we hadn't done this thing in this fashion this would not have taken place.  Can you comment on that?

WITNESS:   Thank you, Commissioner Dlamini.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: I was not here present when Mr Keys was addressing.  When he said the UDF was formed in 1983, and it took police and some other government servants as enemies, I think he made a mistake there.  I think the police made UDF an enemy instead.  That was clear, and it is clear even now.  There is no point of me dwelling in that one.  If they took us for an enemy, doing those things that Mr Harrington has already explained, that they were telling the special constables to shoot randomly in ANC places, then it was called for for UDF to do something.  Were they supposed to fold their arms when the special constables were shooting their areas and their mothers?  Mr Keys should have said police said UDF are its enemies, not vice versa.  I would not say the police and the government servants were enemies, because we do have a majority of people who were serving the government in different areas, and were UDF members, and they were always part of the community where UDF held a strong position.  It was - our enemy was not people as individuals, but an enemy of UDF was a group and the organisation of apartheid.  That I will not deny and repudiate.  But some police were in the community, belonged to the community, but who had done nothing  because they did carry their duties right, so ... (inaudible) ... that were the enemy, but it was the system

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: itself.  Regarding the fact that the UDF was forcing people each time there were boycotts, what I would like to say is, if that was really true I do not think today we will be having this freedom and independence.  If it's true the followers of UDF and ANC were forced to be their members today they should have opened up and disclosed that information that they were made and forced to be members of these organisations.  As I am speaking today we have won two-thirds here in Pietermaritzburg.  At the same time I do not want to refute the fact that at times there will be people, some belonging to UDF and ANC, who will want to force things to be done, but I will say those things were happening there and there, and even in our statements that we used to give out we made it clear, explicitly clear, that we were not forcing people, and we don't at the same time repudiate the fact that there were instances like that, and we would condemn such actions and such things.  And that was one other way which was opening the gate for the enemy to come in.  I will end there, Mr Chairman.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Dr Nzimande, I have one question for you.  Maybe ti's deviated.  I ask this because I am ... (inaudible) ... scheme of things, so you have looked at things very broadly.  In your presentation you do mention that one of the things that led to these attacks in Pietermaritzburg started in the companies here in Pietermaritzburg.  I do wish to know from you the stand of the companies.  It is difficult for me not to look at - it's confusing for me.   /I can't

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: I can't place the companies as to where their stand was at the time, or if they had anything to do with these attacks

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: and so forth, and also that as companies have authorities and powers they could have probably had some way of getting people to come to work, or what?

WITNESS:   Thank you, Commissioner Magwaza.  What you have talked about now, it is important nationwide, especially here in Pietermaritzburg.  If I go back to the discussions of 1987, the businessmen did take part in those discussions.  I will say without doubt or hesitance that some of them did try to prevent these attacks, because they were the ones who suffered the most because people could not go to work.  In other words I would wish - I don't know whether that I have missed some other thing since I did not attend before.  We know about Pietermaritzburg Chamber of Commerce then, and Chamber of Industries, that should come.  We know about those, and should come forward and present, and especially that they were there when the police came to arrest the members of COSATU and UDF.  They have witnessed everything and have seen everything. Especially COSATU was the one which helped at all times to push and put pressure to the companies to play some role in light of solving the problem.  I will briefly say that I would wish for the Commission to call the companies to come and open up and disclose what they know, because they were also directly affected by this.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Dr Nzimande, thank you very much for coming and talking to us today.  It is very important to have the official account of the ANC to what was a major event in the history of the Midlands.  Unfortunately we have not  had the benefit of a similar submission from the IFP.  A letter was sent some weeks ago to Premier Mdlalose, and to

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Mr Ziba Jiyani, inviting them to appoint someone to give the official IFP version of this event, in the same way that the ANC appointed you to give the official ANC version.  A letter was received from their spokesman, Mr Koos van der Merwe, saying that they would not participate in any way in this hearing this week.  And that is a pity, because it would be very important to have had the IFP account of those days.  And the IFP must then live with the consequences of refusing to come to this Commission.  I am glad that the ANC has admitted that, for example, there was stoning of buses in Edendale by young refugees from Vulindlela, and this certainly does explain the anger of those IFP people from Elandskop and Vulindlela.  What we have to ask ourselves is whether it was appropriate then to launch what amounted to an invasion on the surrounding areas, along with the mass destruction of life and property that went along with it.  So thank you for a frank account on the part of the ANC.  Thank you very much.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: /CLIFFORD MARION

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: CLIFFORD MARION

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Thank you, Inspector Marion, for coming in today.  You are currently an inspector in the South African Police Services, and ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   No, that's not correct.  I'm a superintendent in the SAPS.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Sorry, I apologise.  Superintendent.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  And you are presently employed by the Investigation Task Unit in Pinetown.

WITNESS:   That is correct, I'm the unit commander of the Investigation Task Unit.