Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  If I show you Exhibit M1 again, can you just indicate where the convoy entered Boipatong just before they split up?  I want you to do it with reference to the position the casspirs were initially.  Can you just indicate which route did they follow to the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They took that direction, that is the route that they took and when they entered the township, they went to different streets, but I cannot see the streets on this picture.

MR STRYDOM: The witness is pointing out more or less in the middle of the township, on the kwaMadala side of the township, the casspirs entered Boipatong, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  There is a big street somewhere around there, but I don't see it on the picture.

MR STRYDOM: I want to show you Exhibit J, I see you are shaking your head, I will try to explain this map to you.  The open veld you have just indicated on the photograph, is to the left of this plan.

CHAIRPERSON: What Exhibit is this?

MR STRYDOM: Exhibit J.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit J, yes?

MR STRYDOM: The open veld is somewhere here, to the left, the factories are on this side, and this map depicts, indicates or shows the various streets in Boipatong with all the houses, do you see it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do see, but I do not understand a thing.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to try to understand it, because you start shaking your head before even I try to explain it to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen that map before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I see it for the first time.  This is the first time that I see it.  I do not think I am in a position to read it.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  I want to put to you that you indicated that the casspirs entered more or less in the middle of the township and that will be somewhere close to Bapedi Street or Majola Street or Imzimbubu Street in Boipatong, that one is Imzimbubu, that one is Bapedi and that is Majola Street.  You indicated that the casspirs entered from this side, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say so.  At the beginning of the township, at the entrance of the township.

MR STRYDOM: Immediately after the casspir you were with, entered the township, what happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We got off the casspir, took cover and went into the first house.  Some people broke windows, we went into the house and I partook in the shooting of people in that house.  I went to the dining room and I did not see anyone there.

MR STRYDOM: Was that at the stage before you reached - do you know where the shops are in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only know the one that is close to the hostel in Boipatong, near the taxi rank.  That is the shop that I know.  It is near the main road on the taxi route.

MR STRYDOM: When you entered the first house, was that before you reached the shops that you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is so.

MR STRYDOM: After you entered Boipatong, can you give an indication, how many houses did you pass before you went into the first house, roughly if you can estimate?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said there is one house at the entrance, and that is the first house in which we went into.

MR STRYDOM: That is the house that you said was painted white?  You said a white house, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Shortly after you entered, you went into that house.  Did you kill any person in that house, that white house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there is a person that I killed.

MR STRYDOM: You had an AK47 with you, was the weapon set on automatic or did you fire single shots?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I used that interchangeably, sometimes I would use single shots and sometimes put it on automatic.

MR STRYDOM: When you fired shots at the first person, did you use it on automatic or singular shots?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember.

MR STRYDOM: The person that you killed, at the stage when you fired shots, how far was that person from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The person was close because he was inside a house.  I shot at that person at close range.

MR STRYDOM: Can you say if it was a man, a woman or a child?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.  I don't remember whether it was a man or a woman.

MR STRYDOM: Did you fire more than one shot towards this person, or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, but the person fell.

MR STRYDOM: After the white house, you entered the second house, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: In the second house, let me first ask you, this second house, how far was that from the first house, from the white house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The houses were like this, they were on both sides of the road.  But it wasn't much of a distance between the two houses.

MR STRYDOM: But was it still close to the place where you entered the township from the veld?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  It was close because it was just on one street, although I do not remember the street name, but there were houses on both sides of the street.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from you, did some other attackers also enter the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, if I remember correctly, there were people who entered the second house, people like Dondo.  Some were on the street, shooting from there.

MR STRYDOM: Not somewhere from the streets, I am asking you, you said you entered the second house, did any other attacker enter the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, because I was in a group, there were five of us.  There were people who entered the house while others remained in the street.

MR STRYDOM: Were you the only person with an AK47 that entered that house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill people in the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you shoot the people at close range?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, because the house is not very big, it is a four roomed house.  They were not far.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you kill in the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill more than one person, or can't you say, that is in the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not remember just how many there were, but they did die.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, you enter a house, you've got an AK47, you see people, you fire shots at them.  Did you see any person that fell down because of a shot that you fired?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes sir, I said I did see some people falling, but I do not know how many were killed.

MR STRYDOM: The question was in the second house, the person or people that you fired shots to, were they adults or children?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember whether it was adults or children.

MR STRYDOM: So don't you remember seeing children in that house or not?  Let me ask you this - did you see children in that house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember well.  I do not remember whether there were children present.

MR STRYDOM: Because I see in your evidence in chief you said "we went to the second house, and we killed children and adults", why did you say that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did kill people, but I do not know who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: He is asking you about what you said in your evidence in chief.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not know how many people I killed.

CHAIRPERSON: You said now you don't know whether you killed children or adults at the second house, what he is putting to you is that in your evidence in chief, you said you went into the second house, you killed children - did he say women as well?

MR STRYDOM: My note reads children and adults, women and children.  The question is why did you say that in the second house children were killed?