Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Doctor Hartzenberg, at the time that the Conservative Party expressed it's support for Mr Derby-Lewis - in particular by implication of Mr Walus, did you believe Mr Derby-Lewis to be innocent?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: It wasn't possible, I can't tell you now what I thought at that stage.  It's possible that I thought he was innocent, it's possible that I thought that perhaps there was a possibility - I can't remember exactly how I was thinking at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the support that was expressed by the Conservative Party at the time of applauding Mrs Derby-Lewis when she was released on bail and at Conservative Party meetings, was that on the basis that the people that were applauding him were led to believe that he was an innocent victim and that he was expected to be freed and that he as a politician - and the Conservative Party to which he belonged, would be vindicated?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: We stood by Mr Clive Derby-Lewis when we thought that he was innocent, when he was convicted by the court we still stood by him and we're still standing by Mr Clive Derby-Lewis because we accept that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis in his subjective judgement, had thought that he was acting for the Conservative Party's cause - we have no doubt about that and that's why we stand by him.

GEORGE BIZOS: I hear your answer but I may indicate to you that the opinions you expressed are matters which - you're supposed to give evidence of facts and not to express opinions about the result of these proceedings and what you think about it.  Please answer ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: You've been asking him for opinions, you've been asking him whether he believed in Derby-Lewis's innocence - that's his opinion.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] asked Mr Chairman is: "When you expressed those opinions, did you believe him to be innocent"? and the only answer I expected was that Mr Chairman - that was the only answer that was called for.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Bizos, sometimes your question inordinately long and occasionally the answers are long and these things cancel each other out, please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, let's proceed, let us proceed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you criticise the Judge President of the Gauteng division of the Supreme Court for refusing to re-open Mr Derby-Lewis's case?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: It's a question which comes out of the blue, it's possible but I can't actually say just off the top of my head.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you aware of the fact or were you in court when that application made by Mr Derby-Lewis was discussed, in which he said under oath that he had nothing to do with the planning or with inciting or anything to do with the murder of Mr Hani?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I didn't attend the court case.

GEORGE BIZOS: If I may have a moment Mr Chairman.
	I will find that passage but will you please have a look at H3 for a start - H3 of R3?

CHAIRPERSON: Just for my information, can you tell me what document this is please?

GEORGE BIZOS: It's a ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: R3.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what document is that, I can't find it.

GEORGE BIZOS: H3 Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Oh, press cuttings, I'm sorry.

GEORGE BIZOS: It's the green inner folder: "Beeld, 20.4.93"

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway it is The Beeld of 20.4.93?

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you got no - H3, The Beeld.
	Have you got it Doctor Hartzenberg?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you say what appears there?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.  Mr Chair, the CP can be investigated with regard to the murder of Mr Hani because nothing will be found amongst it's ranks, it is not involved in murder.  The ANC should rather be investigated and I would say you could have found a better document because these things are quoted from Hansard - it's authentic, my exact words will be recorded in Hansard and I agree with the general drift of this.

GEORGE BIZOS: But what about the first paragraph
"Here in the Conservative Party ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: I cannot follow the speaker, I'm very sorry.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is entirely correct.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

GEORGE BIZOS: Could I just give the interpreter the effect for Mr Walus's benefit - that Mr Derby-Lewis said that the Government wanted to involve the Conservative Party in the murder of Mr Hani, do you agree that you made the whole of that statement as reported?

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible] said Mr Derby-Lewis said.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, it was not Mr Derby-Lewis who made the statement, it was me.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, you know - when one is looking at documents and that sort of thing - you know what I meant, I meant you Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg and I'm sorry that I slipped in that regard - it happens.
	Do you know the circumstances of Mr Zondo's case, Doctor Hartzenberg?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, I read in the submission of the ANC in this regard.

GEORGE BIZOS: How old was he?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: They said he was 19 years of age.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was he a member of MK?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I think so.

GEORGE BIZOS: And had he been trained as a fighter by MK?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, he was trained.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was MK the organisation which made it's policy publicly known by a declaration on the 16th of December 1961? - that it would use selective violence for the purpose of achieving a political objective of achieving the freedom of the oppressed people in South Africa, did you know that? - about Mr Zondo.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I accept what you say.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you know that the ANC defined permissible actions that should be performed and should not be performed?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, and in this specific submission, both Mr Tambo and Mr Zondo say that this was not an acceptable or allowable deed and he also says that it was a racist deed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether Mr Zondo had access to any more experienced or senior cadre of MK - when he committed this act, to whom he could refer for advice, do you know that?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, I think it is an unreasonable question posed by Mr Bizos, Mr Tromp could perhaps reply.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, you have chosen to make a comparison for the Committee's benefit and I merely want to know what facts you knew or did not know.  Now, do you know whether he had access to any more senior or more mature person that he could go to when faced with the problem that he was faced with on the day that he put that bomb at the shopping centre, do you know whether he had this facility?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Naturally, I won't know Sir but in the submission he said that he thought about the matter for the whole week-end.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know whether he acted outside an explicit direction of his organisation?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, I can deduce that from the submission, I deduce that from the submission.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Bizos, I don't know how far you want to go with this Zondo thing but sure it's a collateral issue.

GEORGE BIZOS: It is Mr Chairman, it is, I agree that it's a completely collateral issue but the witness has made two or three references to it and trying to compare the situation there with the situation that Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus found and what I am busy doing is - in order to try and test the witnesses credibility and fair-mindedness in the introduction of the Zondo case into these proceedings.
	I merely want to place the facts on the record for the purposes of argument because I believe with respect, that he actually is harping on this in order that the Committee should possibly be influenced but different cases have different facts and I think that one he relies on it in that manner, I am entitled to ask the questions.