Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was Warrant Officer Coetzee's office, he did coast patrol.  After I hit him, Mr Jones was prepared to explain to me his part and what he had seen and heard and his visit to Cape Town with reference to  a visit to Dr Neville Alexander of the unity movement, and also the unity that Mr Biko wanted to establish with the ANC military wing, Umkonto We Sizwe to establish that unity.
	I gave him a piece of paper, several pages so that he could sketch his whole background and thereafter I explained to Mr Siebert and the others that he was prepared to talk and that he was busy writing.
	Thereafter, after he gave us the information, we went through to King Williams' Town where we went to his office in Leipoldt Street in King Williams' Town, we searched the office and we confiscated typewriters and we arrested some other persons afterwards, and he was once again supplied by writing material by Siebert and he continued writing about the unity incident, and that was with regard to Mr Jones ...

ADV BOOYENS: Just for the record, these documents Mr Jones wrote on, that was Exhibit A and B, was that in his own handwriting?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Was this both on the 25th, they both dated the 25th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, both on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't read through to documents yet, what is written in there, could this lead to criminal prosecution?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairman, I am sure it could have.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Jones criminally prosecuted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, not with reference to the drafting of the pamphlet.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked the reason why you interrogated him and why you hit him is to gather information and evidence, that would lead to criminal prosecution.  Isn't that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All that I want to know is after you hit him, he wrote two documents.  Was he prosecuted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: At that stage I believe that there was, because his liaison with Dr Neville Alexander and his activities, and because of that it wouldn't have been questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he charged?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he was detained.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was he not charged?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.

ADV SIGODI: When Mr Jones was detained on the 24th, did you hit him on the 24th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

ADV SIGODI: You only started hitting him on the 25th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.

ADV SIGODI: And what made you to decide to hit him on the 25th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: To extract that information and to get him cooperation.

ADV SIGODI: But I mean you hadn't been getting any cooperation from him and what was the deciding point that you, I mean what caused you to decide to hit him in order to get the information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have said previously, that as a result of the pressure that was placed on us from a higher level and to neutralise the unrest, and I used all methods legally or illegally, I used it to generate that information, and I used it as long as I did not embarrass the State.

ADV SIGODI: Were you angry with him when he was not giving you the information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I was not angry.

ADV BOOYENS: Let's put it in a simple manner, before you assaulted Mr Jones, did he give you information that you could use?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: And after you assaulted him, he gave you the information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You mentioned afterwards you went to his office in King Williams' Town?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you get any other information with regard to this pamphlet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You mention at the end of paragraph 10, that you received further information from Peter Jones and arrests followed.  Who was arrested as far as you can remember?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As far as I recall it was Mrs Nomhle Mohapi, Nozepo Kepi, Elizabeth Nkabeni.  They were all typists who worked under Mr Jones in Leipoldt Street, with the Black Community Programmes.
	Can I just explain with regard to that organisation, it was part of the black movement organisation.  They dealt with all the administration, and the printing of pamphlets and the publication of Black Review where certain statements which was given to the publishers, other administrative matters with regard to the Council of Churches, and certain projects of the Zanapilo Hospital in King Williams' Town.  It was a sub-division of the black movement, front organisation.  That is just in short.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Niewoudt, can we just come back to the 25th.  Snyman, Marx and Siebert are present during the morning when you initiated the interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You are not successful?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: They leave the office, you continue with the interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they tell you where they were going, or why they left, did they leave any instructions with you when you stayed behind?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I think they went and did further research or went to drink tea, or had further discussions, I don't know.  But someone had to be present with the detainee, you could not leave him alone.  I was instructed just to be there and to question him.

ADV DE JAGER: And you questioned him further, for how long was this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: For about 20 minutes I interrogated him.

ADV DE JAGER: And then you assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And he was prepared to start writing or give verbal statements?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  Basically he told me verbally and then I provided him with writing implements.

ADV DE JAGER: And you went back to your Commanding Officer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Well, they came back while he was busy writing.

ADV DE JAGER: What was their attitude about this "success" that you had achieved?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: They were, if I can recall, they were impressed.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they ask you how you went about this being successful?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I cannot remember if they pertinently asked me, I could have mentioned it to them.  I don't know, I cannot recall.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you have told them that you had assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I would not admit to a senior officer.

ADV DE JAGER: So at that stage you did not tell them but I assaulted him because I wanted to get this information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I did not mention the method, how I extracted the information.  I cannot recall if I mentioned it.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after your assault did they return?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would, it was about half an hour, I am guessing again.  It was a long time ago, if I could guess, approximately half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: After you assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, after I hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did he start writing, after they returned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Before they returned.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he stop crying at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he had stopped crying.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence which I intend leading with regard to Mr Jones.  I want to now turn to the incident of Mr Biko.  This is perhaps then a good chance to take the short adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: (still under oath)