Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

ANDRIES NDEBELE: It's true there's quite a list of names that was called but I did not pay much attention to those names, but what disturbs me is when a person appears before the Committee saying that he did this because he was sent by so-and-so.  I think these are the people that we can talk to because he testified in the Amnesty Committee that he's the one who did this.

RUSSELL ALLY: And your request to the Commission is that these people who are applying for amnesty should actually come to the community itself and give an account of what they did and why they did it.

ANDRIES NDEBELE: That is true, that is what I would like to happen.  I would like those people to come and appear before our community and not appear in Nelspruit where they did not kill people, they should come before the Committee  or the community in which they perpetrated some acts of violence so that even the community can know who the perpetrators are and the can know the reasons as to why they did this.  But now they are moving far away from us and the procedures are taking place far away in front of people who are not directly involved in the whole conflict. So I'm asking myself as to why he will never come before me and ask for forgiveness.  Maybe if he comes to me as well as the community of Thandukukhanya, maybe we can even consider forgiving him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Is this Keswa you're speaking about.

ANDRIES NDEBELE: That is correct.

RUSSELL ALLY: How old was Sifunda when he was killed?  Your son, how old was he?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: He was 18 years old.

RUSSELL ALLY: And he was still at school at the time?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: Yes he was still at school.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mr Ndebele and we hear your request and I am sure that we will try and see what can be done through the Commission.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Ndebele I may have just one question. We were talking about a disturbing thing where you hear people say we were sent by so-and-so. Do you perhaps know the name of that person who is alleged to have sent people to kill others?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: According to the newspaper reports the name was mentioned but under the circumstances I will not be able to disclose the name. The situation is still very tense. That is why I say I do not want to comment any further on any newspaper reports as well as radio reports.  I do not feel safe even today, so I'm scared to mention the person's name.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. I'm not going to allow any more handclapping, okay!  This is the last time, so please, I know you want to show your support.  Let's show the support in some other way.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Ndebele, some of us may not have come across that newspaper clipping, is it possible for you to find that newspaper clipping so that on the basis of that not on the basis of what you say, as you put it, perhaps we can make a follow-up of that information?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think I still have that article at home, I think I do have the article at home, I can bring it.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thanks I've just been corrected, that we have got the name in the amnesty application and we can only hope, I don't know whether this is what the community has, we hope that person perhaps has applied for amnesty and if he has not done so, I think we have had the pleas from Archbishop Tutu, from the Minister of Justice, from the Minister of Safety and Security that people who have done those acts and have not applied for amnesty, and the date for amnesty has expired, are liable to prosecution in which case it gives one firm assurance that if it is found that those people have not applied for amnesty, then people are at liberty to proceed with civil action against those people. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Mr Ndebele, could I just ask some advice? Because what you have been talking to us about is very similar t another case that we have heard today which also took place in 1993 and which involved the same people. And in that case we were told that the action that took place was cold-blooded murder. Now in the amnesty applications people are granted or can be granted amnesty if it is shown that the actions in which they were involved took place within what is called the political context.  So we have on the one side someone describing something as cold blooded murder, which would imply that there is no political connotation, and the other, the same people in an application describing it as an action which took place because of a political motive. Could you perhaps advise us, comment on that distinction an in, certainly in your own case, would you describe it as murder or something within a political context?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: In my own opinion, or maybe that is just a wish, if a person comes before the Amnesty Committee, I think he or she deserves to be forgiven, but with regard to the incident that took place in Thandukukhanya here in Piet Retief, I think it has nothing to do with politics because I think it was a criminal act.  It was just common criminals using the vale of political organisations in order to hide their act or disguise their acts because at the end of the day we discovered that these people had been sent or bought for a sum of money in order to go and kill certain members of the community who were either not wanted by a certain member of another political organisation but it was not a genuine political issue.  I think the political organisations were used in order to perpetuate criminal acts that were committed during that time.  I don't believe it had anything to do with politics because it also involved sums of money that were paid to certain people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndebele I just want to ask one question.  There was a court case of the two individuals who have been mentioned already, one by you, Mr Keswa and the other person, Mr Zwane. Did you attend that court case?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you tell us how many years those people were sentenced to?

ANDRIES NDEBELE: It was not a court case, and it ended in the inquest it was presided by the Piet Retief magistrate and the conclusion or the decision that he reached was that Zwane was involved and he could be accused of murder and that was the end of the inquest.  I do not know what became of it thereafter and then later we heard about Keswa as well as Mdu(?) Mdu Nsibi, their case went on until the conclusion of the trial. We were present and we were attending the case.  They were both convicted.  If I remember very well, I think Keswa was given 25 years. I don't remember about Mdu, but he was given 30-something years. And we don't know what happened thereafter because they did point out during the court case that they were sent by certain members of their political group to go around killing members of the community. And as the case went on, when it transpired later on, we realised these people knew a lot about Piet Retief and they were directly involved in killing members of the community including my son.