Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, at Tereblanche's office or Swanepoel's office or were they together in the office or don't you know.  You only know it was the police station, you don't know whose office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I think each one of them had an office, that is Tereblanche and Swanepoel.

MR STANDER: In how many offices were you assaulted and tortured that next day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: In one office.

MR STANDER: Did this torture take place for the whole day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: When we went out of there, it was very dark.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken next?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Heidedal police station.

MR STANDER: What happened on the third day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: As usual, we left in the morning to Fountains, the same routine.

MR STANDER: What was your physical condition on the third day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I could not speak, I could not eat.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, it has been brought to my attention that the interpreter said that the police station to which the witness had been taken, he mentioned Three Ways and the interpreter said he had been kept there for three weeks.  Maybe we can just clear up that aspect.	Unfortunately I did not listen to the interpreter, so I didn't quite hear what they said.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, no, with respect, what my note if you are interested in it is, he was asked whether he received medical attention and he said I spent three weeks there in that condition.  That is where the three weeks came in and that was the only place where it came in.

MR STANDER: I leave it there Mr Chairman.  What was your condition on the third day, I didn't hear your answer?

CHAIRPERSON: He couldn't eat or speak.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Where were you kept in detention after this?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was taken again back to Heidedal police station.

MR STANDER: Did you receive any medical treatment?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I believe on the fourth day at about eleven at night, I was taken to National Hospital and I met a particular Doctor, I want you to underline that.
	I do not know, I do not want to remember the name.  When I arrived there that Doctor said to me man, this man has nothing.  He is just running away from interrogation.  He did not even touch me.  He gave me Panado's and I went back to the police station.

MR STANDER: Mr Makhubalo, were you later charged?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What happened about this charge?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I won the two charges.

MR STANDER: When you are talking about two charges, which ones were these?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was charged with terrorism and murder.

MR STANDER: Of murder on whom were you charged?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Gosi's murder.

MR STANDER: Are you still suffering any consequences from the assaults on you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you tell the Committee about these?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, my right ear had an operation because of the bat I was hit with.  I cannot hear properly with this ear.  If it is cold, it is only problems.

MR STANDER: No more questions to this witness, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Who is going to cross-examine first?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry Mr Chairman, before they cross-examine, can we try to more about you?  Were you the Chairman of MYCO?  Mangawu Youth Congress or I am not sure what it was called?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, I was the President of Mangawu Youth Congress.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Would you say that you were involved in student politics?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: At the time when I was a student, I was fully participating in COSAS.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We, from the evidence we've heard from other cases, we came to understand COSAS as having been a student body, Congress of South African Students, as having been an organisation which was working or an organisation through which students were waging a political struggle.  Am I right?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: You are right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are there any other political activities in which you were involved other than through COSAS and MYCO?  For example UDF or ANC directly?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: MYCO was an affiliate of UDF.  Can I carry on sir?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was also a Trade Unionist.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you want to add anything?  Is that
(indistinct)  I am finished, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if we are finding out about you at the moment, let's find something else out.  How old are you now?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am 31.

CHAIRPERSON: So the time you are talking about, you would probably have been 20?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Let it be so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I assume at that time you were a student?  When you were a member of MYCO and also involved with COSAS.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We have to put other things into perspective here.  I became the President of MYCO after leaving school.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani?  Could that other speaker be moved up a bit please, so that Mr Memani could get his -that's enough, that's enough.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.  Mr Makhubalo, did you have any personal problems with Mr Motsamai?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that whatever assault that he may have carried out on you, he carried out because of your political activities which were aimed at overthrowing the National Party government?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And if there was any hostility between yourselves, it was as a result of the fact that he was a member of the Security Branch and you were a political activist?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Can you please repeat your question.  The interpreter is troubling me.

ADV MEMANI: I was saying that if there was any hostility between yourself and Mr Motsamai, it was because of the fact that you were a political activist and he was a member of the Security Branch?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that the Security Branch generally attacked activists and harassed them in this area?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Is it so that you did not have any personal problems with Mr Ngo?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And that you also encountered him as a result of your activities as a political activist and him as a member of the Security Branch?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Is it also correct that during the period 1985, around 1985 onwards, Ngo was generally associated with members of the Security Branch in this area?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: He was seen on many occasions together with members of the Security Branch and was known as such?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he known as?  You asked if he was known as such?

ADV MEMANI: Known as a member of the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Or was he known as that or was he known as one of their informers?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am saying I knew him as one of the Securities.

ADV MEMANI: And, on the occasion when you were arrested after you attempted to skip the border, we have been told by Ngo and Motsamai, that they participated in your assault while you were on the fifth floor.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And that they did not participate in the assault that took place in the offices they refer to as the Special Investigative Unit?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the office that - Mr Tereblanche's office, was that an office of the Investigative Unit?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, that is according to Ngo and Motsamai.  I do not know anything about that, I have never worked at Fountain.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they in Tereblanche's office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, I said Motsamai and Mamome took me to Mamome's office if I remember well, and I said I was with Tsoametsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, as I understood your evidence, you said that after the fight broke out in Tereblanche's office, a lot of other people joined in.  And you gave us the names of them.  Do you remember that?