Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR PRETORIUS: As we can gather what happened, that during the shooting there was turmoil and people tried to run away etc., and in that process he was injured with a sharp object and he died there on the corner of King George and de Villiers, that is the best we can do.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you able to communicate that to her?

MR PRETORIUS: We tried our best but you can understand Mr Chairman as I said, this is the first time that her son came forward to assist us, and we will through him communicate that to her as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR PRETORIUS: May I just - as I understood from my learned friend Mr Tipp, the amnesty application also stands for this occasion so that there can be no doubt about that.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, it does.  One does not know what potentially could be found on the basis such as a matter such as dolus eventualis.  There was an indication in the inquest finding that although no ANC member had inflicted the wound, that perhaps nonetheless some culpability might attach.  That's obviously not something that is necessarily accepted but the application is persisted with in respect of this victim also.

CHAIRPERSON: That clears that up does it?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed Sir, I've got no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Yes, Mr Vilakazi, thank you very much for your assistance, there will be no more questions put to your mother.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, I would just like to ask some indication from the Committee as to what time the Committee is planning to sit today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VAN WYK: Because the reason why I'm asking that is the next witness that is available here is Mr Majosi and he will take much longer than the previous witness has done.  I have spoken to Mr Tipp and he also told me that he cannot foresee that he would finish with this witness today and I don't want, or I don't know whether the Committee would want a situation where a witness would give his evidence in chief and then stand over until the next hearing to be cross-examined.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other witnesses that are going to be called besides Mr Majosi?

MR PRETORIUS: Not from my side anymore Mr Chairman.

MR HUMAN: I have certainly got a witness and the same applied, it's a long witness, he will testify to the full merits of the actual happenings and I would foresee that the same would apply as far as cross-examination by the ANC is concerned.  It's going to take quite some time.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not a dependant?

MR HUMAN: No, it's indeed an eye-witness to what happened and he was injured on the scene as well Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And the name of your witness?

MR HUMAN: Mr Bafana Konzuiese Mahlaba, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: If the name Bafana may have been repeated twice it might have meant something.

MR HUMAN: Hopefully it might have been a success story then Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And your witnesses name please?

MR HUMAN: It's Fanu Milendeni Majosi Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are you aware of the fact that these witnesses are likely to take some considerable time?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, that is our view, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Have you anything to say in this matter?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, no, except that I do agree that it's not preferable that we hear the evidence in chief of a witness now and the possibilities of the first available date for postponement would not be within the next two months, so I would prefer that the matter then stand down till then.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen and Ladies, it does seem that we're not in a position to tell you when these hearings will be resumed.  There are various difficulties in the way of telling you now to what date this matter is going to be adjourned and it does seem that we will have to rely on a mutual date to be agreed by all the parties concerned and that we should endeavour to arrive at such a mutual date as soon as possible, and if possible perhaps within a week from today.
	All the parties, you have a fair idea of your witnesses, how long it will take before they are available, those who are not available at present and so on.  If Mr Dias is not available on the adjourned hearing we will just have to do without him.  
	Will you take the necessary steps to communicate with counsel once you are in touch with the office as to when the Committee as constituted at present will be sitting and then communicate with counsel and finalise the date?

MS PATEL: Yes, I will, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR P A VAN WYK: Honourable Chair, may I indicate, after consultation with some of my colleagues appearing on behalf of the objectors, we are of the view that we should try and set aside a week for completion and hearing of the remainder of the evidence and the argument if any.
	I would suggest that at this point in time we should be looking at another open week for purposes of finalising this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's a good suggestion.  May I also suggest, considering the amount of detail that has emerged during the questioning of witnesses and the reference to passages in the inquest proceedings in other previous documents as so on, that if between now and then counsel prepare written argument which they may supplement when they address us?
	It would assist us because when the time comes for this Committee to consider its decision sometimes a lot of time has elapsed and we've done a lot of other applications in the meanwhile and so on and so on, so I'll be pleased if it is possible for counsel to have prepared written submissions.  They needn't be lengthy provided they draw our attention to the salient points and make salient reference because all in all we were inundated with something like fourteen volumes of lever arch files.  We would welcome your co-operation in that regard.  
	It remains of me to thank all of you for the way in which things have moved so far and the Committee is now going to adjourn and resume on a date to be arranged mutually between all the concerned parties.  The Committee now adjourns.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS