Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: Who contemplated assassinations to your knowledge, or who did you come - when did it come to your ears that there was a possibility that in your new job you may have to discuss assassinations?

EDWARD WEBB: I never became aware of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: So this attempt that you tried to make, a distinction between the matter of outside an inside being different, was a fiction.

EDWARD WEBB: There's no difference between internal and external as far as my channel of authorisation is concerned, it was the same channel.

GEORGE BIZOS: You tell us that there was no mention of what was to happen inside in relation to assassinations, I ask you whether you were told anything about what the line of authority was if there were to be outside assassinations and what I ask you is, on your present evidence there was no need whatsoever for anyone to discuss assassinations with you.

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, I'm going to try and explain.  The information would determine what kind of operation was to be conducted.  If it was necessary to assassinate somebody, then I would have taken that information further to see whether the operation could be approved or not.  So the information determined the operation.

GEORGE BIZOS: There was a, what the politicians and theoreticians call "a qualitative difference" between your job as an honourable member of the Police Force to a covert operation - I beg your pardon, the Defence Force, to an operation by operatives who were going to lie, who were going to cheat, who were going to commit crimes within the country, all of which are inconsistent with an officer's and a gentleman's upbringing, is that not right?  There was a difference what you had been doing up to then and what you were asked to undertake.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, there was a difference, yes, from conventional to unconventional.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the unconventional part of it was that crimes would be committed, crimes in accordance with the law of South Africa.

EDWARD WEBB: That's why an organisation, a covert organisation was established.

GEORGE BIZOS: To commit crimes against the law of South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: But if the acting against the enemy included -just as a question of an example, the assassination of a person, that would be against the law of the country?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now once there was going to be this fundamental change of your function, did you not ask Gen Joubert or the Head of the Army, "What am I supposed to do here, am I supposed to aid and abet criminals to commit crimes, and how far can I go?"?

EDWARD WEBB: I never asked from the Head of the Defence Force or the Army.

GEORGE BIZOS: And not Gen Joubert either?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it because you neither wanted to hear nor see evil that you deliberately remained ignorant?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well you see, there was no longer any need to protect the Army, the noble cause for which you committed perjury before Judge Hiemstra ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Harms.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, sorry.  Judge Harms.  ... at the time that you came to give evidence before His Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman.  Was there?

EDWARD WEBB: No, but my perjury was not committed before Stegman ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, didn't you, you said you lied.  If you lie under oath, it's perjury, if you lie under oath in the Commission of Harms, it's perjury.  Second count of perjury, you lied before Judge Stegman, why did you lie before Stegman J?

EDWARD WEBB: It concerned the internal/external thing.  We did have the capacity to act internally.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see what I'm putting to you is that the circumstances had changed by the time you came to give evidence in the Webster Inquest, because the Army's role in covert assassinations had already been exposed, had it not?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, not assassinations, but covert actions, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you know, Gen Joubert made an affidavit to the assistant of the Attorney-General of the Eastern Province Provincial Division, and it was handed in as an exhibit and it had an annexure to it and it was made public in the Goniwe Inquest, for the whole of South Africa to read.  Didn't that come to your notice in relation to the internal policy of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, I didn't read it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you in '92/'93?

EDWARD WEBB: In South Africa.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if there was wide publicity about the affidavit made by Gen Joubert and which was handed in as an exhibit and accepted as correct, how could you have missed the revelations of a fellow General on such an important point?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, with all due respect, in all fairness to this witness, Mr Bizos isn't saying where this thing appeared and he's telling it was widely published, we don't know where it was published, which newspaper or whether it was on television and whether Gen Webb ever had access to that.  It's unfair to put it to him on that basis.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) those things, we will prove them if need be and we'll argue ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Bizos, are you saying it was in the public media?

GEORGE BIZOS: It was in the public media, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I could just, while you're on that point.
	Did you sit in at the Webster Inquest to listen to other evidence?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you sat through the evidence of most of the evidence(sic) in the Harms Commission, according to your evidence.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And you were there when Mr Verster gave evidence.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now I ask for leave to hand in the Minute of a number of Generals, including the Head of the Army, Mr Chairman, of the 28th of April '87.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this, Mr Bizos?  What do we describe the document as?  A Minute or ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let me give you the heading
"Presentation CCB to the Head of the South African Defence Force."

CHAIRPERSON: Presentation of CCB to Head of Defence Force.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just push the button.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... Gen Joubert.  The affidavit also indicated, Mr Chairman, the General's and other senior officers who were present.  Unfortunately we haven't got a copy readily available but it is a matter or record and we will get a copy of the affidavit and hand it in in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Bizos, as far I can recall this is Exhibit L.  I think the plan of the Early Learning Centre was K, so this will be Exhibit L.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chair, before my learned friend starts asking questions about the document, I just want to place it on record that during the pre-trial before these proceedings started, it was agreed that documents to be used be handed in to all legal representatives beforehand and in the past two weeks in which we've sat here it has happened repeatedly that Mr Bizos suddenly comes with additional documentation which wasn't made available beforehand to us, which was not made available to the parties and it then, at the eleventh hour it's given to a witness who is then asked to comment on it.  So I want to place it on record that it's extremely unfair and I don't think it's the correct way of doing it and I'm requesting Mr Bizos that if he has more documents, to make it available to us.  And I would also now ask that we have a short adjournment so that my client can have a look at the document before he answers questions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I got this document this morning but I did know about it before, but as a result of what happened here I ask for ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I can ...

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct) to be made available.  We can't foresee what we ...(intervention)