Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

JUDGE WILSON: 33.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And the judgement goes on to say,
"After judgement on conviction had been pronounced the case was adjourned.  On resumption of the hearing appellant gave evidence in mitigation of sentence in which he developed the alleged political component of his story still further".
So it would appear from the judgement that you said, told the court quite a lot about politics and that this was a political purpose.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Maxam, if I might just ask you when, that the stage that you did not emphasise the political nature of it, was that at the time of your arrest?

JUDGE WILSON: He said at the trial policemen spoke to him.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, if I might just clarify.  I believe, I understood the evidence myself to be that at the time of the arrest of the applicant.

JUDGE WILSON: But you asked him about the trial.

ADV LOURENS: I ...

CHAIRPERSON: You may clarify.

ADV LOURENS: If I might clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, clarify if you wish.

ADV LOURENS: If I address my question by referring to...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV LOURENS: ... to the actual trial.  Mr Maxam, at the time of your arrest you did testify that you were arrested by a certain policeman.  Can you remember his name?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Mongezi Morris Moss was the police who arrested me.

ADV LOURENS: Now is it correct that at that stage he said to you do not emphasise the political nature of this matter?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, perhaps if I could clarify.  I had intended to, I was just waiting for this section to finish.  I do have a statement from Sergeant Moss, a short statement that was obtained shortly after the last time we appeared here which I beg leave to hand to the Committee if that is acceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may hand it.

ADV LOURENS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: This should go in as EXHIBIT A.
EXHIBIT A HANDED IN

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished with this witness?

ADV LOURENS: I just have one, I have one further aspect that I wish to put to him.  Mr Maxam, you have previously given evidence at a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: What was the nature of your evidence there?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It was concerning the amnesty.  What I can say is that the reason why I appeared before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was to ask for forgiveness, especially to John Geyser's family and Rooyen and Foster's family and to the people, the community in Mbekweni and to, about the incidents in which they were involved concerning the violation of human rights.

ADV LOURENS: And is it correct that in 1995, a petition was circulated in Mbekweni asking for your release?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that was a second petition, the one of 1995.

ADV LOURENS: If I might refer the Committee to page 37 of the record.  The petition is contained there.  Thank you, then I have no further questions for this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE LOURENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I wonder whether Mr Swart should not be afforded an opportunity as representative of the next of kin.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swart are there any questions you wish to put ...

MR SWART: Yes, thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to the applicant?

MR SWART: Mr Maxam, did you know the other members of this group who went with you to the farm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I knew them.

MR SWART: Were they members of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWART: Did you know all their names?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: A few of them, I know their names.  I think two or three I am not aware of their names.

MR SWART: Were you one of the founder members of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWART: How many members were there in this organisation?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: When we started or when?

MR SWART: In 1985.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I am not sure in 1985, but the majority of the people in Mbekweni were members of PAYCO.  We had more than 500 members at the time.

MR SWART: So, if you did not know all the peoples' names, how could it be that you knew they were members of PAYCO or did you not know all the members of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I knew them, because I got the information from the Secretary of the organisation at the time when we would meet in the meetings.  People would attend the meeting, sometimes we would have rallies in our stadiums and I could see that they, we had support for the organisation.

MR SWART: Perhaps I should ask you this way.  How did you know that these specific members who were with you or these people who were with you on that day were all members of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I am not certain that some of them were members of PAYCO, but I knew Madoda as the member of the organisation, because at the time his brother, Siphiwo, was a Chairman of the youth in Mbekweni, but most of them I knew them as Comrades, not that they were registered members of PAYCO.

MR SWART: Besides Madoda were any of the others members of PAYCO?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: In this group?

MR SWART: In this group.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I do not want to lie.  I do not have an idea.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you not at the commencement of the question say I knew the other members of the group, they were members of PAYCO, other members of this group?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: When I answered that way the question was that I, the question was whether I knew their names.  I said yes, most of them, I knew their names, but two or three of them, I am not aware of their names, but if, whether they were members of PAYCO I am not sure.  I knew them as Comrades.

JUDGE WILSON: That was not the question.  Mr Maxam, the question was not if you knew their names, the question was  ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: The question Mr Swart put to you was did you know they were members of PAYCO.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not know whether they were members of PAYCO.

MR SWART: From where did you know these other people who were not members of PAYCO whose names you did not know?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Please repeat your question.

MR SWART: The members of the group who were not members of PAYCO and whose names you did not know, from where did you know them, how did you know them?

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, can I interfere again. I do not think he said he knew they were not members of PAYCO.  What he has now said he does not know if they were members.

MR SWART: Thank you Sir.  Could you just explain how you knew the other people.  Had you only seen them before or had you had meetings with them or how did you know them?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Some of them I would see them in meetings, in youth meetings.  Sometimes when we were throwing stones I would see them in such actions, but I just took them as Comrades.  I then accepted them as Comrades.

MR SWART: So, is it not possible that some of these people were members of AZAPO, your enemies?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I doubt that Sir.  I do not think they were members of AZAPO, because I know the situation in Mbekweni at the time.

MR SWART: You said in your evidence that you did not really trust these people.  That was one of the reasons why you did not see them afterwards.  Is that so?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: What I said is that at the time of the struggle you could not trust a person.  Not that you believe he would tell the police, but if a person would be arrested he would not be sure what he would divulge to the police, because some of them, some of us were Comrades, but they would not attend political meetings or workshops where we were trained how to answer police questions.  That is what I mean.