Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

UNKNOWN: When Mr Gomedi gave evidence I had not received instructions from Mr Msibi yet then there was no cross-examination and Mr Msibi's case was not put to Mr Gomedi.  You will remind yourself that Mr Gomedi was basically called by Mr Black in order to give the background of Piet Retief during that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am please tell me - I'm not going to say that I will allow it or not.  Mr Msibi received notification of this hearing.

UNKNOWN: It is so yes.  I also asked him to bring the notification.  It is dated the 24th June but according to Mr Msibi there was a fax printout that indicates that on the 17th July he received it.  It is not when he got it but when he sent it to his attorney in Pretoria.  He gave me the instruction that he received it on the 17th July and only then did he receive the notification.  A notification was sent to another Mr Msibi, his brother and not to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not present when Mr Gomedi gave evidence?

UNKNOWN: He was here yes but I did not have his instructions at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: That is exactly the point.  Why did he not then give instructions.  He heard the person give evidence.

UNKNOWN: Mr Prinsloo at that stage told you that Mr Msibi approached him and told him that his advocate would come the next day and his advocate not come.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that I do feel for your position but the point remains that like they say in English call people back in a willy nilly fashion.  There must be good reason for it.  The fact that you did not have instructions and I'm not talking about you personally but the fact that you only received instructions at a later stage, is that sufficient to call someone back?  I ask, I'm not saying that this is my view.

UNKNOWN: I'm of the opinion that it is possibly not Mr Msibi's mistake because I do not know why his legal representative was not here and that his attorney only gave this at a later stage I cannot say but possibly Mr Msibi in that regard can be disadvantaged by other parties.

CHAIRPERSON: You see we must not allow people to think that they can use the whole process or the Committee as they wish and because of their own mistakes or negligence they can do something like that.  Before I make a decision how many questions will this entail?

UNKNOWN: I think all that I would like to do is I would like to put the case of Mr Msibi to Mr Gomedi.  If he wants to make comment on that but Mr Msibi will in any case give evidence or testify.

CHAIRPERSON: So you will only make a statement and then ask his comments on that and that is it?

UNKNOWN: That will be the end, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Gomedi here?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, may I be of assistance.  Mr Gomedi was not subpoenaed by this Committee or anyone to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black he has given evidence.

MR BLACK: Yes that is so.  When Mrs van der Walt indicated that there was a possibility of him being recalled I indicated this to him.  He arrived here this morning, he said it's impossible for him to be here, he has to be in Durban.  There's a joint council meeting between the Durban and Piet Retief areas that cannot be rescheduled it's a long standing arrangement.  I asked him to explain this to the leader of evidence and what the situation should be.  He's not available to testify today, he is willing at any stage to give evidence and it's - I asked him just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You know I'm not willing to just hear his evidence when it's to his convenience.  Who excused him from this hearing?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, perhaps I may have to explain this.  Mr Gomedi is here, in fact what Mr Black now is telling me it was prior to me going to Mr Msibi, I mean to Mr Gomedi again, arranging that he must be available.  He is available.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gomedi will you come to the stand please?

MR BLACK: I'm sorry I was under the impression that he would not be available but I'll ask him to discuss this with the leader of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gomedi there are just one or two issues which Advocate van der Walt would like to put to you in respect of what she has been instructed in relation to the political situation in Piet Retief at that time and you will be invited to comment if you so wish.  I just need you to take the oath again.  Or let me put it this way, you're still under oath to tell the truth.

MR GOMEDI: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: Mr Gomedi I would like to put it to you and Mr Msibi will testify in this regard and that is in the testimony that you gave regarding the situation in Piet Retief from 1989 that it was a false image that you portrayed to this Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: And that it was more quiet in that area?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

UNKNOWN: Mr Msibi will testify that up to the moment when he was shot in Piet Retief - that was now in the Black neighbourhood Ethandakukhanya there was no problems, there were no ANC members shot in that area and if he was the first person who was shot the 12th December 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any comments about that proposition?

MR GOMEDI: No I don't want to comment.

UNKNOWN: Furthermore, Mr Msibi will say that your testimony is false with regards to the fact that he in a dishonest way got rid of the Mayor Malakasi and Mr Msibi in 1988 was elected as a council member of the area and in 1990 became mayor and filled this position till 1994.  Would you like to comment on that?

MR GOMEDI: No I don't want to comment.

UNKNOWN: And furthermore which was also not correct in your testimony you said that a certain Mr Pila Ngene was killed in such a manner that could possibly implicate the police.  The Msibi will testify that he died in a car accident.  Would you like to comment on that?

MR GOMEDI: Maybe Chairperson you must help me, you know, because if I will start maybe trying to respond to these things we are going to take another five hours, you know.  I will rather say I don't want to comment and say I still stand on my statement that I make.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting it's your word against his and we must make up our minds?

MR GOMEDI: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

UNKNOWN: A few more comments.
	Mr Msibi will testify that in the neighbourhood, especially the inhabitants provided his service not as a member of a political party, he was not a member of Inkatha.  Up till today he's still not a member of Inkatha and he works for the community as a whole not like you testified that he worked against the ANC.  Have you got any comments?

MR GOMEDI: No comment.

UNKNOWN: Mr Msibi will further testify that you drove around the neighbourhood with a vehicle with a loudspeaker in which you incited the people against Mr Msibi and the South African Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Is everything that Mr Msibi thinks will he testify about that?

UNKNOWN: That is true, yes.   Have you got any comments?

MR GOMEDI: Maybe Chairperson let me request again that maybe the madame that side you know must say whatever he wants to say and end up and you know, rather than talking and say I must comment, talking and say I must comment.

UNKNOWN: I've got no further questions, he doesn't want to answer.

MR GOMEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Then I call Mr Msibi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, which language would you prefer to use?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I would like to use Zulu and - I'll say 50/50.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, you will use one language please.  Otherwise you will cause a big rumpus here with the system so choose one of the languages please.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I will use Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Msibi, you are a resident of Piet Retief is that correct?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Since when have you been living in Piet Retief?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I was born in Piet Retief, stayed in the township as of 1964 to date.