Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, I have never intended to kill anyone.  Our intention was to burn down the house.  But however, things didn't go as we anticipated.  And as a result of our actions, people died, but never there was any agreement between us to kill anyone on that said day. It was never our intention to kill.  We went there with the sole purpose of burning down the house, but as a result of that people died.

MR CURRIN: How did you at the time feel about the fact that your action had resulted in the death of four people?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I felt sad and as it could be seen, when I was asked this during the cross-examination in the Supreme Circuit Court, Supreme Court, I broke down twice, because I regretted that people died as a result of my action.  Though I didn't intend to do that, but any death of a fellow citizen in this country is regrettable. I have been raised in a family. I had once lost my uncle. I know the pain, I know the grief. I have lost my grandfather and I know how painful it is to lose someone who is dear and who is a family.

MR CURRIN: You mentioned that you were in hospital with other members of the family, with Hendrik's family members and members of the family who had lost loved ones in this incident, did they know that you, they knew that you were a person that was responsible for the fire?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, they knew and they were angry.  They said
horrible things.  I understood it and I took it that yes, they were right to say those things, they were feeling a pain and as a result of my action they have lost loved ones, and  ... (intervention).

MR CURRIN: Did you - carry on.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: And to my knowledge I knew that if they had opportunity or time to do it, they could avenge that, they could kill me as well.  That's how angry they were. I even at some stage feared for my life, thinking that upon visit they would send people to avenge the loss of their loved ones.

MR CURRIN: Did you approach them at all while you were in hospital?  Was it opportune, was there a lot of time for you to approach them and to talk about what you had done?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: The first time we met it was in a place where there are two doors. I take it is a room for people who have been seriously injured and the other room for people with minor burn injuries.  And when we met at the door, they hurled abusive words and all that, but I kept saying to them "I'm sorry you lost people.  Hadn't it been for Hendrik's actions we wouldn't be in this situation".  I kept, I apologised and I knew they wouldn't hear me, because of the pain they were in.

MR CURRIN: Now as you sit here before the Amnesty Committee, and on your left-hand side there are members of the family who lost their loved ones, is there anything that you would like to say here in public to them?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, there is.  For the past ten years, even during my stay in death row, I have been agonising and having this pain, that I have caused people pain as a result of my actions, and it cannot end up there.  I know it is
difficult but today I am happy that I am going to have an opportunity to say it really from the depth of my heart, not as a token of trying to ease them or ease my conscience, I really am sorry that as a result of my action and my comrades you had to lose loved ones.    Nothing can replace life.  I know how important is life.  Believe me, even in death row, I wasn't worried that I was going to hang, I was worried that my actions have led to a situation that you should lose loved ones.  I am sorry.  I know saying sorry is something that can be very simple. It is simple to say I am sorry. You can make an error.  But forgiving is something else. I don't expect you to forgive me.  I know it is difficult, but I here and now apologise to you from the depth of my heart and I believe that you will consider forgiving me. I have suffered really, emotionally, physically. I had dreams that one day I will be a doctor, I will be able to afford my mom a decent house and afford him a living.  Now all that cannot happen. I am sorry.  I hope in your heart of hearts you will find a way, even if you don't forgive me now, but reconcile with me.  These wounds I am carrying inside may not heal, I know it is easy to say. You have scars, you have suffered, you have suffered more than I have ever imagine a person can suffer.  Life is irreplaceable. If there was anything I would do to bring back all your loved ones, I would believe it, even if it meant I should put my life at stake, I would do it.  I am sorry it ever happened, I can't sleep ever since.  There is something in my conscience that says but the cause was just, but in the process people lost their lives.  I cannot walk up tall with a head, with my head high.  Whatever achievements I have, there is still something hanging in my 
back.  And I ask of you, to please, please, please consider forgiving me.  Asking forgiveness from you would be something else, but I here now plead with you.  I know it is difficult, but I plead with you to please consider forgiving me.   Thank you.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  Could I just confer with my assistant for a moment?

JUDGE WILSON: You look as though you might be some time, Mr Currin.  Would this be a suitable stage to take a short adjournment?

MR CURRIN: Yes, that would be very helpful. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: We will take a short adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PHINEAS NDLOVU: (s.u.o.)

MR CURRIN: (cont):  The argument was about political issues.  Are you saying that there was no argument about money, what are you saying?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, there was argument about money. In fact it triggered off the whole question of the way Hendrik perceived us and the way he handled himself, but the whole question started around the issue of the money that was used to purchase the foodstuff that we had bought. And ultimately, when Comrade Mahlangu said to him you didn't give us the money and then that started off swearing and yelling at one another.  Then it went to that stage where it became evidently clear from his utterances that surely he was not on our side.

MR CURRIN: You said the way in which he perceived you.  Could you just, you said it became apparent, the way in which Hendrik perceived you, I suppose, as comrades, became apparent.  What did you mean by that, how did he perceive you?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Well, he took us for low-lives.  For one, he had a decent house and where he could lay his head.  Some of us had parents who were staying in shacks and as a norm in our society we have the standard that people should wear this and that and that.  So of us, many of us could not afford that, it is true as a result of our parents could not afford, some of us were many in the families, and all that, and so that made us aware. Of course, that is why our parents could not afford this.  And in all this at times he would bar us from enforcing consumer boycotts, because he had interest of the cafe, and by so doing, to me it appeared that he wanted to be a role model citizen, whereas he was barring us from effecting what would bring changes in our lives and of the entire citizens in this country.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, how would he prevent you from embarking on consumer boycotts, as Hendrik Masupa?