Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Okay.  I just want to read some statements I have regarding Katiza Cebekhulu.  The first statement I will read to you is the statement made by Major Moodley when he went to the United Kingdom to interview Mr Cebekhulu.  In the statement he says, I am reading paragraph 4.1,  halfway in that paragraph it says,
"Morgan and Winnie went, when two persons unknown to him came into the house and spoke to Winnie. He was then told by Winnie to take the two people and show them Dr Asvat's house.  He then accompanied these to Black males in their motor car and pointed out the house where Dr Asvat was.  They then brought him back to Winnie's house and left him there and went away."
That is just the first statement.  This statement is then Mr Cebekhulu's statement and he says in paragraph 11,  "Mrs ...",  sorry,
"He took two young men, two young men came to see Mrs Mandela in her home one evening.  Mrs Mandela had called me and instructed me to drive with them and show them where Dr Asvat's surgery was and in which street. I showed them the surgery."
The next sentence says,
"I had not seen these men in Mrs Mandela's house before, nor had I met them in any other place though neither of them had any family or other connection with myself of which I was aware."
And then just the third statement is from Mr Tulani, Dlamini Tulani, ag, Tulani Dlamini, sorry, and he says here,
"She called a child and said that the child must call Katiza.  The child went out and a while later Katiza came into the room.  Winnie then spoke to him and said to him to show these people the person and the place in Rockville."
All these statements that I have read, basically, they all confirm one thing, that neither Mr Dlamini nor Mr Mbatha nor Mr Cebekhulu ever knew each other before you asked Mr Cebekhulu to show these people, Mr Dlamini and Mr Mbatha, where Dr Asvat's surgery was.  What is your comment there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am astounded at such rich imagination.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mandela, just please answer the question ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Such fabrication ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: ... please.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Such fabrications are absolutely  unbelievable.  I do not know what you are talking about.  None of those things took place whatsoever.  You heard your clients, rather the evidence of Cebekhulu, which was contradicted by Richardson when he claimed that I had stabbed Stompie and, honestly, really, for me to have to sit here and answer those ridiculous allegations, it is a source of great pain to me.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mandela, can I just say that each lawyer has been instructed, as yours was.  She is acting on instructions, she is not putting the questions just because she wants to.  So, please, if you could just answer the question without making all the comments.  You have answered the question, next question please.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: My next question is, is that, yes, I did hear the evidence that Mr Richardson said yesterday that he denies that you stabbed Stompie, but the one thing that is very clear to me and, maybe I am misunderstanding it and you can clear it up for me, is that according to my client, Mr Dlamini, and Mr Cebekhulu, they never knew each other.  So, here were three people that never ever met each other before and never ever saw each other again until they actually came to this TRC.  They never ever saw each other.  They were all in prison, in different places all over the world and, yet, they all have the exact same story and the exact same statement.  Now, if this is a fabrication, I do not understand how they all can have the exact same ludicrous fabrication.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I do not know whether we can be assisted by Mr Vally and them.  I seem to recall that at a certain point these people were in the same cells, at a certain point.

MR PIGOU: Yes, that has been alleged that Mbatha and Dlamini and Cebekhulu were in the same cells by, I think, Senior Superintendent H T Moodley, but I must point out, he has never actually proved that.  He has never actually provided cell registers and that information has not been made available to the Commission.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I am sorry ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Well, did, the question must be, with respect, Chairperson, if the TRC proves the converse, I mean, to treat the evidence of witnesses as suspiciously as this, it is hardly fair even by them, with respect.

DR BORAINE: Can you restate your question, please, and Mrs Mandela, if you can answer it as briefly as you can.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: All I want to know is your opinion in that, I hope I can restate it, because it just seems to me that here were three people who claimed that they had never ever seen each other until you asked Mr Cebekhulu to point, to go take them to Dr Asvat's room.  After that they never ever saw each other again until, according to my client, they saw each other and they realised only here that that, in fact, was the young man who showed them where the surgery was.  Before that they had never ever seen each other and yet we have three, four separate statements all saying the exact same thing.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I really have no idea how they managed to weave that web of such statements.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know what you are talking about, honestly.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: I have no further questions, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  That concludes the questions from legal representatives.  We now have questions from the panel and I am going to ask Dr Mgojo if he has a question to put to Mrs Mandela.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mr Deputy-Chairperson, I just have only one question, because we are pressed by time.  I am going to avoid the synoptic intervention, that is to say to repeat the same things which we have had, but I am going to ask a question which was asked by Mr Sanjay, Sanjay, do not know, Makanjee, when he was using the methodology which is used by lawyers, I am a lay person and a Minister.
 The question is, Mama Madikizela-Mandela, it is a very easy question, you may decide to answer it, you may not decide to answer it, it is a very easy question.  Do you have any informed opinion, I did not say knowledge, I say any informed opinion as to why some people, including those who have been your close associates, have suddenly distanced themselves from you by making a litany of serious allegations against you, the first portion of the question, and how do you feel about this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thank you Dada.  May I request that I answer that question at the end of this hearing?

CHAIRPERSON: I gather you are taking over now.  Well, yes, I mean, as long as you will remember that she owes you an answer.  Yasmin Sooka.