Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FATHER MKHATSWA: Again we didn't enter into all those specific discussions well simply because that was not our mandate.  Our mandate was - again let me repeat what I have said earlier was very simple, here are three clergymen, unfortunately they are men, there were no women, being asked by their colleague to go and say to Mrs Mandela we are aware that there are these allegations that have been you know that are flying around and so on and if the children are here we would urge you to ensure that those children are released, that's about all.

MR RICHARD: My last question which is really a recapping of what I have said.  You were certain that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was fully appraised of all facts relating to what she was speaking of?

FATHER MKHATSWA: In that meeting, yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Kuny.

MR KUNY: Thank you Mr Chair.  Just one question Father Mkhatswa and that relates to where the young men were at the time you visited, I note from your evidence and that of the Reverend that there is a discrepancy in the sense that you say in your statement at the time of the visit none of the children were at Mrs Mandela's home.  Do you recall, was she asked directly about the whereabouts of the children?

FATHER MKHATSWA: I don't think we went, we asked that specific question.  All what we were interested in was to find out if the children were well and we were assured that they actually were in good health.

MR KUNY: But was Mrs Mandela in fact asked where the children, where the young men were?

FATHER MKHATSWA: I don't think we really asked you know where, in fact physically where they were.  As I said all what we were interested in was to find out if at all she knew their whereabouts and secondly if at all she was aware of the concern in the community about the condition of those young men.  So after we had received that assurance we didn't really take the matter any further.

MR KUNY: How did you discover that they were not at the house during the course of your visit?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well it's in the papers we didn't really ask to see them.  I think that was just our understanding that - at least not at the house where we were at that particular time so I mean we didn't see any of them at that time.  Perhaps the statement might be vague but that's what I meant.

MR KUNY: Well the question is asked because the Reverend said, "when we asked her about the whereabouts of the young men she told us that they were safe and sound".  You in your evidence say, that at the time of the visit none of the children were at the house.

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well maybe I should have said we didn't see any, I would interpret it that way, we didn't see any of them at the time of our visit.

MR KUNY: Wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that she was asked about the whereabouts of the young men and that she didn't give an answer or, either that or - either deflected the question by simply saying they were safe and sound or informed you that they were not there?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well this I can only again describe this post facto speculation or something that might have happened or should have happened but didn't happen.

MR KUNY: Well with respect it's not speculation, it's based on the evidence that has been given, and I am referring in this particular instance to the Reverend, he says they were asked, that you asked about the whereabouts of the young men.  You don't have a recollection of that?

FATHER MKHATSWA: No well simply all what we are interested in was to get assurance from her that the children were in good health, that's all we wanted to establish.

MR KUNY: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Your one question has spawned so many others. Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: My first question is really wanting your reaction.  Yesterday we had I should think it was Bishop Peter Storey who said they were involved in a hostage negotiation, and we heard also today and yesterday members of the defunct Mandela Crisis Committee who created an impression that they had to negotiate and there was a crisis.   And from Dr Motlana, yourself it's a different tone altogether, how would you explain that?  It's like really there were no major issues and how would you explain that?  I mean it's going to be a dilemma for us.

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well thank you very much for that question.  I think different individuals, different collectives, different organisations, different structures did different things in order to address this issue.  As I have already pointed out the Crisis Committee was in fact almost solely responsible for co-ordinating all efforts that were designed to try to normalise this situation.  So when we went to Mrs Mandela's house again our mandate was not to go there see the boys and get them released, that was not really the purpose of our visit.  As Reverend Mbangula has pointed out, quite frankly it was really more a pastoral visit.  Because from experience, and as the good Archbishop would know there comes a time when either politicians or certain groups may be in conflict and you probably need a person who can be regarded as rather neutral to act as a mediator or to act as a counsellor whatever the case may be.  So I think that's how we saw our role and we've no reason to disagree with the way the Crisis Committee saw the situation.  We cannot really be critical of that at all but that's how they saw it and that's how we saw our particular role on that day.

MS MKHIZE: Okay maybe we will need to get clarity on this, Reverend Mbangula the opening paragraph of your statement you indicate that you were on leave and on your return ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He's stepped down.   You've got to ask, it's now Father Mkhatswa.  He is not there.

MS MKHIZE: Ja, but you see it's about a pastoral visit and maybe I was saying to (...indistinct) are we talking about a pastoral attitude because it's like in terms of the mandate there is something which had to be dealt with which in my mind it doesn't really create an impression that it was a mere pastoral visit except if our understanding differs.  Ja because I was reading this which is in Reverend Mbangula's statement that  "I went into the -" first of all he didn't go there immediately, he had to get other people.  Then he goes on to say
"I went to that meeting with the following concerns, why were the young men removed from the mission house;  where were they by then; what was the basis of the allegations levelled against the Reverend Verryn; what could one do in respect of Mrs Mandela who was also a member of my church".
So it's like it wasn't a mere pastoral - it wasn't a mere courtesy call.

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well perhaps if I may respond to that one.  If I am called upon to provide pastoral counselling or ministry I don't just kneel down and start praying I also discuss the facts you know of the situation.  If for instance husband and wife are fighting I can't just go there and say I am a pastor, you guys must behave yourself, let us pray.  That's certainly not the idea.  Well you try to find out what are the root causes perhaps of the problem you know, so it's a very scientific approach to the situation.  So it seems to me that perhaps there is a differences of definition of what pastoral visit really means.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine.