Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: 44?  Certainly Mr Chairman.
"In order to achieve this, we needed this as our objective role, our participation in the armed struggle, we needed to know where they lived and so I drew up a list of names which included other names which are not important in this regard, so that it would not be clear as to the intention behind the list as far as the person we asked for the addresses, was concerned.
	The intention was to avoid involving innocent people whom we needed to do certain things for us and this is also the reason why we decided to cooperate with the SAP in this regard as we used a number of people to assist us with various things without telling them or their questioning of our intentions."

MR PRINSLOO: Is this information contained in this paragraph correct Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is partially correct from the intention to avoid involving innocent people Mr Chairman.  As far as the drawing up of the list is concerned, I did not draw up the list of names.

MR PRINSLOO: And the next paragraph 45.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  The list of names were placed on computer.  I cannot remember for sure how I got the list to Arthur Kemp, a former journalist of both the Citizen and the Patriot, but asked him because I believed his journalistic background would put him in state to acquire such information.

MR PRINSLOO: Is this paragraph correct or incorrect?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is incorrect Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Now turning to paragraph 46?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman, paragraph 46 reads as follows
"I am not sure when the addresses were returned to me, but it was either at the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993 and could have come xxx my wife, it must be via as I remember saying at one time that I needed the addresses for some or other vague purpose.
	I would not have mentioned Kuba Walus in this regard as both he and I had previously agreed not to involve our women folk, the less they knew the better.  Some of the names submitted were not returned and I assumed that Kemp had not been able to obtain the addresses."

MR PRINSLOO: Is that correct or not Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is not correct Mr Chairman, other than the sentence that refers to the fact that we agreed not to involve our women folk.

MR PRINSLOO: We are turning now to the next paragraph, I beg your pardon, you haven't gone through the bottom part?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I haven't read that yet.

MR PRINSLOO: Read that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Must I read that.
"Kuba and I subsequently discussed the list and listed the names in order of importance.  During the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion.  He did not know nor ask why they were there."

MR PRINSLOO: Is that part correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, it is not correct Mr Chairman, except for the statement we listed the names in order of importance.
	"He took the list and undertook to recce Hani's address to see whether the attack was possible.  During our discussion Kuba undertook to do the attack.  I was responsible for the provision of the weapon and the ammunition."

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, why did you supply that information?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well Mr Chairman, I was trying to protect my wife from any possible harassment by the SAP.

MR PRINSLOO: At what stage did you decide to do that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I decided to do that Mr Chairman, after I had been informed that she had been arrested under Article 29.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, I will now refer you to bundle E again.  You have already told the Committee with reference to bundle E, page 6 and 7 indicating to times, without labouring the record, times you were taken into interrogation, kept awake, your sleeping conditions and what had been said to you.
	Would you have made any statement or answered any questions had you been given a choice which you have today in terms of the constitution?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I would have said not a word Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, is it correct that your term of detention was indeed continued after expiration of the first 10 days?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: For a further 10 days?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: When were your detention in terms of Section 29 of the Act, suspended?  Do you recall or don't you?  Are you not sure of the date?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was after 20 days from the 19th Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Now after you were released from detention in terms of Section 29 of the Act, is it correct that a member of the Criminal Investigation Department, who was then Captain Holmes, obtained a statement from you which is referred to in page 9 Mr Chairman and 10 of bundle E, is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that Captain Holmes informed you of your rights which appears on page 9 and you responded at page 10?  Correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Will you please read out to the Committee?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly Mr Chairman, and as it is in Afrikaans, I will read it slowly.
"After consultation with my legal advisers, I prefer not to make any statement and I further wish to state that I was being forced under duress while I was in detention and that my rights as a private individual were affected to such an extent that I would not receive a fair trial because even on the night of my arrest, I stated in writing that I did not wish to make any statement, and that I also did not wish to reply to any questions.
	This right of mine was affected by immediately after making the statement, on 1993-04-17 I against my wish and my will, was interrogated without my legal advisers being present which action makes us entitled to a special note in terms of Act 51 of 1977, which later affected my right to silence being affected to my detriment.  Signed at Benoni on the 7th day of May 1993 and I did sign it Mr Chairman, at 14H37."

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, what was your state of mind during your detention, whilst you were detained?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I haven't really given it much thought because I tried to drive that part of my life out of my memory.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it a pleasant experience?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was the worst experience I've ever had in my life including anything I had during my military service Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Why do you say that Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well Mr Chairman, I have never felt as insecure in my life before as I did then.  Besides the fact that I wasn't allowed to sleep, I was also subjected to all sorts of, I would name them tricks, because that was what they were Mr Chairman.
	Like two people in civilian clothes, suddenly rushing into my cell area in possession of a key when I could see no identity, nothing to identify them as policemen, in fact they looked like two real gangsters, came rushing in with a key in their hands and they shouted out they were here to come and fetch me.
	They would be outside my cell window and say that I would not be able to sleep even when I was in bed.  As part of my military training, in my young days, I was trained to stay awake, but then I was in my 20's.
	There at the age of 57, it was expected of me not to sleep for as long as possible, days and days on end.   And never before in my life had I been as tired as then.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, what did you feel like during detention in terms of Section 29?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sir, I was constantly nervous because I never knew what was coming next.  One reads about the atrocities that are committed under Section 29 detention, and one constantly has at the back of one's mind the question when is this going to start happening to me.