Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.   Just before we start with the evidence this morning, I would just like to rectify something that I should have done yesterday and that is namely to identify exhibits.  I think the video for instance that we watched, should be an exhibit, that is an exhibit, Exhibit 6.  Is it Exhibit 7, thank you Ms Thabethe?
	The video will be Exhibit 7 and then Prof Vanezis' report, that is the two-page report that accompanied the video, that will be Exhibit M.  That is the two-page report done by Dr Vanezis and then I think we ought to also have that article by Shahrom, the one that was used and referred to, which we had in our possession and which was sent to us by Prof Vanezis, that is that article on facial reconstruction, Shahrom et al, computer aided facial reconstruction, that article, that article, that article will be Exhibit N.
	I notice that, and I think we are all in the same position, that the copy that we have, starts with page 2.  Is there a page 1, does anyone have a page 1 to the article, because it is also clear that page 1 is missing, it starts with the figure 2, there is no figure 1 on it?  The first page of the fax is missing, I think we are all in the same position, is that so, no one has got anything ...
	Ms Thabethe, if you can just make enquiries about that, I don't think it is vital, but in any event.  We are also given a photograph of Ms Ntombi Kubheka, a photograph of her sitting on a bed.  That photograph will be, that photocopy of the photograph will be Exhibit O.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, please forgive me for interrupting you.   You will also recall yesterday, and I am mentioning this merely just to keep matters that belong together, to keep them together.  You will also recall that ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Yes, and we have made copies for you Chairperson.   Then that can be the next exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: That will be ...

MR VISSER: It is ...

CHAIRPERSON: The photograph is O?

MR VISSER: Yes, it is Iskan and Loth.

CHAIRPERSON: Iskan and Loth article?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could have copies of that distributed, please?

MR VISSER: That is available, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit P?

MR VISSER: Oh, I thought O?

CHAIRPERSON: The photograph is O.

MR VISSER: Oh, are you putting interposing photograph, because there are other photographs that have come to hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's make the, sorry then, let's change that, we will give that photograph a number later, when we get other photographs and then keep them as a batch.
	Just to recap then, the video is Exhibit 7, the Prof Vanezis' report, is Exhibit M, the article by Shahrom et al is Exhibit N and the article by Iskan and Loth, is Exhibit O, and then that photograph, we will give an exhibit number later, because there might be other photographs.  Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, okay, I understand, in fact you have given us an extract from this publication?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson.

MR LAX: ... also refer to another article by Helmer yesterday?

MR VISSER: But that is quite a voluminous book from which we have made various extracts Chairperson, and we will make it available to whoever is interested, but I don't want to burden the record overduly.  The only two aspects there that we will submit, are really relevant, which are not covered by Iskan and Loth, are the two that I read out.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can make photocopies of those pages.

MR VISSER: Yes, that we can do.

CHAIRPERSON: And then identify them by writing on the top of the photocopy from which publication it comes?

MR VISSER: Yes, we will do so immediately.  It is from the "Forensic Analysis of the Skull" and we can give that an exhibit number immediately, P if you wish Chairperson, and I will see to it ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the author's name?

MR VISSER: It is edited by Iskan and Helmer and the book is called Forensic Analysis of the Skull.

CHAIRPERSON: It is extracts?

MR VISSER: It would be extracts, yes Chairperson.  We will make this available to Mr Wills or whoever is interested to go through it.  If they want to add extracts from it, well, then they are welcome.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think any extract that you make from that, we will call that Exhibit P, but if you for instance make two pages, call it P1 and P2.
	And then if you can get the copies of the ones that you, the pages that you make, to everybody please?

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, when we concluded on Friday with Ms Stephanie Miller's testimony, she was being questioned by Mr Visser.  Mr Visser, do you have any further questions?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, before I forget, could I just place certain things on record?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR WILLS: At this stage, Mr Chairperson, certain members of the deceased's family were measured and weighed at the rooms of the District Surgeon yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.

MR WILLS: And I thought it would be relevant to just put that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: In case there is any doubt about the correctness of this information, Dr S. Naidoo, the Pathologist, was present and this was done in his presence.
	The first person is a sister of the deceased, the sister's name is Sibongele Gugu Kubheka.  She weighs in at 56,6 kg and is 1.38 m in height.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, 1.38?

MR WILLS: The second sister of the deceased is Lynn Matoko Masetla.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Masetla.

MR WILLS: Sorry, it is Masetla nee Kubheka.  Her weight is 63,2 kg and her height is 1.48 m.  The brother of the deceased is Themba Muziwakhe Kubheka.  He is 74,6 kg and 1.55 m.  We also did the same in respect to the deceased's two children.
	The first, the son is Clifford Thamsanqa Kubheka.  The second name is T-h-a-m-s-a-n-q-a.
	He is 62,6 kg and 1.67 m in height.  The daughter of the deceased, Peggy Tulesile Kubheka, she weighs 127  kg and is 1.68 m in height.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

STEPHANIE MILLER: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any further questions for the witness?

MR VISSER: (continued)   Yes, thank you Chairperson.   On Friday you testified that according to your understanding, your investigations were what you called "victim driven", is that correct?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What does that mean to you?

STEPHANIE MILLER: It means that the information that initially instituted the investigation, came from information derived from family, relations, friends of victims during the period that the Truth Commission was about.

MR VISSER: Do you not intend to suggest with the phrase "victim driven", that you believed your duty was to find facts and circumstances which pointed against the veracity of the applicants' version?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is not true.

MR VISSER: I see.  And during this trial and presumably before, is it correct that you have had consultations with the legal representatives of the victims, is that correct?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am sorry, what you are asking is after my investigation and prior to this hearing?

MR VISSER: During this hearing?

STEPHANIE MILLER: During this hearing, I have had consultations with those Attorneys, yes.

MR VISSER: And did you then keep them informed on the latest developments?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am not sure what you mean by latest developments?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, there were enquiries made about documentation and there were the search for witnesses.  We know Mr Ismail was found and that kind of thing.  Did you keep the victim's legal representatives informed about what was going on?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I would keep the victim's family informed if the representative was present, then he or they would have been informed equally.