Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Khotle, you have an affidavit in front of you which is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That is correct Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, my instructions are that both the victims in this matter are opposing your application on the grounds that there was no political motive for this incident.  Their argument is as follows:  The reason why you started shooting at the police was because you were afraid that you were being arrested after they followed you in your vehicle, in their vehicle I mean.  Do you have any comment on this?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: It is their right to be against my application, there is nothing I can on that.  That is what I expected, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct]

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Sir.

MR MALAN: Mr Khotle, can you just inform us why did you intend to remove the weapons?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: After the Wesselsbron Supermarket Incident I went to Umtata where I gave a report, after some time.  I don't remember how long.  Whilst I was in Umtata I learnt that one of my comrades, that is Ngesi, was arrested and he had the knowledge of the whereabouts of the arms.
	I met with the Director of Operations, we discussed about this issue.  After that we agreed that I am obliged to go back and remove those arms.  I could have taken other arms to Botshabelo and others to Welkom.

MR MALAN: In your statement, I think it was in your statement to court, in your confession, in your plea, you said that you originally intended to take all the weapons but then removed only one, is that correct?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why did you remove only one then?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: On our way to Wesselsbron, together with comrade Moalusi Morrison, he made me aware, he was afraid that we might be tracked down, maybe the security officers knew about this car and they were following this car.  After I received that information I decided that it would be important that we should not remove all these arms at the same time but I should take one and then I will see later how I would remove the other arms and take them to Welkom and others to Botshabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you were caught in possession of one illegal weapon you were in just the same danger as if you were in possession of four, weren't you?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That would be true, but the reason is that if it happened we would be able to secure other arms that they should not be confiscated from us.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean it was not your risk that you were considering but the risk of losing your arms?  The risk of losing your weapons, not your arms.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I understand the way you put it, but I understood that because we were two and the other one is a driver.  From Wesselsbron to Welkom, that's where Mr Moalusi would leave me, then the bulk would be safe and then I would be able to remove them later.  Then I said, in case there was a pursuit from Wesselsbron to Welkom I would be able to use that rifle which was with me.  In my understanding to take on arm it would serve that purpose.
	If it happens that from Welkom to Botshabelo he is pursued by the police, if it was possible for him to use that firearm he would be able to use that because it was one.

MR MALAN: Why did you not remove the other weapons?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: The reason I've already given is that I decided to leave them behind after he made me aware ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry to interrupt you.  I'm asking you why did you not later remove the other weapons?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: After that what happened is that the following day which was on Friday the other one was arrested, that is Mazete.  He was arrested and as a result of that those firearms were confiscated and that is why it wasn't possible for me to go back because they were not there anymore.

MR MALAN: Then the last question, what did you pay Mr Moalusi Morrison for the use of his kombi?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: In that statement which I gave in court which is before this Committee, that is the reason which I would contest because I understood that we should not all of us go prison.  If I didn't say it that way it was clear that Morrison could have been arrested, so I was prepared to go alone to prison.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm a little confused.  I'm looking at your application and you say that this took place on the 20th of July 1993.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I'm not able to verify but I remember writing that on my application.  I'm not able to verify clearly.  It might have happened after that date.

CHAIRPERSON: Because as I understand you said it was shortly after the incident, you went to Umtata, you were told Ngesi had been arrested and therefore you had to remove the arms.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: If I remember well, if you may look at the court record, this may have happened in October, on the 20th or on the 21st.

CHAIRPERSON: That makes things much more realistic because the weapons were found on the 22nd of October.  You say this might have been some months after the supermarket robbery.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED