Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

ADV PRIOR: Today what's on the roll is the Amnesty Application of Mr Aggie Shoke - Amnesty Number 8014/97 and Harold Matshididi - Amnesty Number 8007/97.  Today is the 3rd August and the Amnesty Committee sits in Johannesburg at the Institute of Social Services, Queens Road, Mayfair.
	Mr Chairman, at the appropriate time, the transcribers have requested that the Members of the Committee as well as the legal representatives simply identify their voices before the proceedings start so that any transcription can be properly transcribed attributing the questions and or statements to the voice.  Can that be done after I address?
	Mr Chairman, before I continue there was some problem with the obtaining of more particulars regarding the events.  I have supplied you with a number of documents relating to the correspondence with the former legal representative of the applicants.  I do not propose to go into any detail at this stage but should the Committee deem it necessary, obviously it will place that on record.  Suffice to say that any delay in the matter has not been caused by Mr Landman at all, he having come into the matter at a very late stage.  
	May I also place on record that only this morning was it brought to my attention that there are two other names that have been names possibly as implicated or applicants in this matter.  One Mr Dumakude and one Mr Dube.  They are both however represented by Mr Greg Knott of the firm Bell, Dewar and Hall of Johannesburg.  Mr Knott and I have been in communication with each other and I've appraised him of the situation.  Given the extent of their complicity or participation of the events of Ellis Park Bombing, he is happy to join in the proceedings tomorrow and to that end will be in attendance tomorrow with his clients, the persons I have mentioned.  He will be brought up to speed with the evidence tendered this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to correct you, but I think for the sake of the record perhaps one should, is it's not the extent of their complicity but the minimal extent of their complicity as I understand it.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman yes, may I hasten to add that it's because of their restrictive roles or the limited roles that they played, Mr Knott was happy to agree to that, you know, to that procedure being adopted.

CHAIRPERSON: They are as at the present time not party to the present application, they have not been set down as applicants but in the event of their wishing to make an application tomorrow, that will be considered.  I understand that Mr Landman has been also privy to the discussions and that he has no objection to this procedure being followed.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman that is correct.  We don't have any objection to the procedure as suggested being followed.  There's just one aspect which I wish to clarify and that is that the evidence of both the first and second applicants in this particular hearing is that at least one of the two persons named as implicated/applicants who are not here today, are severely implicated in the incident.  The evidence will be that a person by the name of Dumakude in fact assembled the bomb which was placed in the vehicle and that he drove the vehicle to the place where the explosion occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: I had understood that he was only the driver.  You say he assembled the bomb as well?

MR LANDMAN: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps - are you going on Mr Prior or perhaps Mr Landman having done some talking could now put himself on record so that they can identify him?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I'm Advocate A.P. Landman of the Johannesburg Bar, instructed by Ms Cambanis of Attorneys Nicols Cambanis to appear on behalf of the first and second applicants.

DR TSOTSI: Dr  M. Tsotsi, Attorney.

ADV SANDI: I am Advocate N. Sandi from the Amnesty Committee.

ADV PRIOR: Maybe I should also identify myself.  Advocate Prior, Paddy Prior from the Amnesty Committee, evidence leader in these proceedings.
	Mr Chairman, may I just indicate that the requisite notices in terms of Section 19 were sent out to all the interested parties except the two indicated a short while ago.  However their identities were only made known this morning and the attorney has been contacted.  Apart from those two all the names of persons implicated and victims were notified in terms of Section 19.  I understand there was also an advertisement placed in the local media advertising these hearings.  The response to the Ellis Park bombing as a hearing - there are two victims present, Mrs Klukas and Mrs Erasmus.  They lost their husbands in this bombing.  They have requested myself, evidence leader, to assist them in presenting their submissions to the hearing which I have undertaken to do.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman shall we proceed?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman if I then might call the first of the applicants.  Mr Chairman we have taken the liberty of requesting that the second applicant as listed, Harold Matshididi, be called first?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman sorry, may I just make it abundantly clear, the matters under consideration at this hearing will only be the Ellis Park bombing and no other event.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: (sworn states)

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed?   Thank you.
	Mr Matshididi, during 1988 were you a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: When did you join uMkhonto weSizwe?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: In 1982.

MR LANDMAN: Now the present hearing concerns a bomb blast that occurred in the vicinity of Ellis Park Rugby Stadium on the 2nd July 1988.  At that stage were you a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: During July 1988 were you a member of a cell or a unit consisting of members of uMkhonto weSizwe?

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who was the commander of that unit?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude was the commander.

MR LANDMAN: And who was second in command?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dube was the second in command.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, may I just for the record purposes at this stage say that the two persons now named are the two implicated/applicants who will be I understand present tomorrow.
	Were there any other members of your unit?

CHAIRPERSON: I've been looking and I haven't found it so far.  Once again, perhaps for the sake of the record, I don't know if they have a list of these names otherwise could you spell them out for them?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude Mr Chairman is D-u-m-a-k-u-d-e.  Dube is D-u-b-e, Dube.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you.  Now apart from Dumakude and Dube and yourself were there any other members of the unit?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: On that day it was only us.

MR LANDMAN: The other applicant in this matter, Aggie Shoke, do you know him?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I know him, he was also present.

MR LANDMAN: Was he a member of your unit on that occasion?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, how did it come about that you became involved in the bombing at Ellis Park Rugby Stadium.  Could you describe your involvement?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I have already indicated that I was part of the unit that took part in the bombing.  Dumakude in the company of Dube came to us at our unit where we stayed and they informed us that during that week we were supposed to execute a certain task.  They read in the newspaper that there was going to be match at Ellis Park Stadium.  Now myself and Aggie Shoke were supposed to go and reconnoitre the place and report back to them as to the structure of Ellis Park and where the car could be parked.
	Myself and Aggie Shoke did exactly that.  We went back to report, we went the second time and reported.  On Friday of that week, the day preceeding the match, we left with the two of them for Ellis Park.  We showed them how ...[intervention]