Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mr Chairperson we would like to call Nancy Xatula.  We would like Nancy Xatula to come and take the stand.  I would like to welcome Mrs Xatula.  When other people were giving evidence especially when Ms Langa was giving her own evidence the name of Leo Xatula was also mentioned.  Many people sacrificed their lives and you are one of the woman who suffered in South Africa.  You also sacrificed for this country for its liberation.  I am going to allow you to take an oath.

NANCY XATULA: (Duly sworn in, states).

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.

MEMBER OF PANEL: We greet you Mrs Xatula.  We want to apologise for keeping you for quite a long time.  We know that you are not very well, but we want to show our gratitude for your patience.  We believe that you are going to give evidence about your son who was here at UNITRA.  You last saw him in 1983 if I am not mistaken and then you saw him again when he was already deceased and you received the information that he was killed by the police of the old regime in the Transkei.  We would like you to give us a picture of who was Leo and then give us background.  We would like to know much about you.

NANCY XATULA: I am Tombisonkie Miss Xatula and I was married to the Honono family.  Out of my nine children Leo was my
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first born.  He was brought up here at Umtata by his aunt and he also attended school here in Umtata.  He passed standard ten in St Johns College.  
 Leo use to disappear and we would not know his whereabouts, but I heard rumours because I had some information that he was involved in some activities.  In 1981 Leo disappeared permanently and we learned that he was in Cape Town, but nobody ever specified where exactly was he.  In 1982 my sister came to report that Leo is nowhere to be found.  I heard rumours from one of the gentlemen who use to talk about him, it was Pandile Gisan.  I came here in Umtata and I tried to locate this gentlemen.  Fortunately I saw him when he was just following me because he saw me also.  We talked and discussed and I wanted to know what was going on.  He use to say young aunt when he addressed me and then he said I would go again.  I am here, but I am now employed.  I will come back again after a long time.  I will be working at sea.  Again, I realised that Leo was thinking of doing something. I said to him please communicate even if you go wherever you go, please maintain contact.  He disappeared. 
 In 1983 he went to attend one of the ceremonies which was an initiation ceremony of the other boys in the community and that was the last time when he bade farewell to me.  My sister said the police use to visit him.  They usually wanted to know whether they know where Leo is.  I was surprised, but I did not take much consideration of all what was happening.  I did not inform them of what was happening, even my family.  In 1988 June one girl Nokuku called me on my way from school.  I was a teacher at the time.  I was teaching at Qumbu.  This girl, I knew her to be
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Impisana, but during the reign of Matanzima most of the children would change their surnames and would go and pretend to be related to the Matanzimas.  I was surprised because Nokuku also said she was Matanzima.  Nobody knew that she was Impisana family.  Many youth were always communicating with this girl and she use pretend as if she has befriended them.  I met this girl again and she asked me when did last see Leo.  I said I last saw him quite a while ago.  ... west coast and at Bizana.  This girl said please hide his photographs and just tell them that all the relatives that have the photos should hide them because he is wanted.  This perturbed me for quite a long time.  
 We learnt that there were people who were terrorists.  We all knew that the people who use to cross the borders were labelled as terrorists.  I was also having the impression that Leo might be amongst those people who were alleged to be terrorists.  In June at the same time I met Nomabuta who is my sister.  She was with Mrs Gonie who is Ms Makippie is also, is a teacher here in Umtata.  They came to Qumbu where I was staying.  I could assess that they have brought bad news and I asked them because I was not familiar with them.  I did not always have visits from them.  So at the end they said we must come and tell you what happened.  They said there is a young man who is killed.  There is a policeman who is Boy and this policeman claimed that it was Leo who was killed.  He had to be identified.  The first question I asked why did they come to you.  She said I do not know.  I asked did you come to report officially or did she just come because she was in Kanduli because my sister was married there.  She said I am not quite certain that this was an official report.  It was said there was an
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unrest in Bizana and then he died there.  I did not know what to do and then during that period the people were collected.  
 When I looked outside I could see that there was one gentlemen in one of the cars.  It was a white Skyline and I said I must try to find out much from this lady.  I did not believe that Leo is dead.  I asked whose car is this?  He said, no, Boy gave this to us.  Who is driving?  It is Blackcat Nombanga.  He was a policeman in the Security Department.  They told me the day when we were supposed to go and identify Leo.  My sister and Ms Makippie left my place and I asked the people to be with me for quite a while because I wanted to make some telephone calls.  I did not even know to whom should I report this.  I did not know with whom should I communicate and I knew that the minute you have people who are labelled as terrorists you were also regarded as a dog.  I thought for a while and I thought of this Dumisa Ntsebeza.  I have never met him, but I just learnt that this Dumisa was also being arrested.  I knew that he was a lawyer.  I just wanted to know how could I meet him.  I took the directory and looked up his telephone number.  Fortunately I could get the telephone number, it was a bit late.  I phoned him at phone and then I was asked who I was.  I identified myself and then I was given information that I should wait for seven minutes.  A few minutes thereafter I phoned again.  He answered the telephone.  He wanted to know more about me and then we communicated telephonically.  He asked me did I know the office where they were working.  I said no.  He even asked do you know me personally.  I explained that I never met you.  He said, no, you cannot communicate everything 
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telephonically.  I just mentioned that there is this nephew of mine who is now late.  
 Very early in the morning I went to the office.  I waited for him, this Ntsebeza.  One young gentlemen came in.  He was dressed in a denim.  I did not even recognise that it could be Dumisa Ntsebeza and then I asked him from the others and then I was informed that it was this lawyer that I wanted him.  Then we discussed and then at the end I said I would go and identify Leo.  We found this Blackcat.  One of his friends, the friend to Leo was also a runaway because he was wanted by the police.

MEMBER OF PANEL: I would like us to go back so that I can not disturb you further.  You said in the beginning that you knew when he disappeared.  Where did he use to go?

NANCY XATULA: Yes, I knew because I knew that he was involved in the struggle.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Who was the sister who was here in Umtata, with whom she was staying?

NANCY XATULA: It was Namabatla.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Where is she now?

NANCY XATULA: She is still at her place.

MEMBER OF PANEL: During the time when you were going to identify the body, with whom were you travelling?