Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: So according to you he never spoke at all, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: According to the minutes, I will read them then to you, he said that on Tuesday somebody came, a person of an age of 17 years, the man was coming to Madala from the township.  He pointed out that the man is round, and he was not forced to come to Ulundi.  Do you have any comment so far?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.  I don't know who this 17 year old is.

MR STRYDOM: The name of the guy is Matanzima, he said that he was sent by ANC members to work after members of the IFP in Madala hostel.  He was ordered to monitor the movement of the five members of the IFP.  He mentioned that Mbatha is the man behind this.  If anyone refused to do what he is instructed to do, he will be sjamboked to death.  He also mentioned that he was also instructed to take number plates for the members of the IFP and then it carries on with something else, Mr Twala reported on the conference about the MK and their task since 1960.  You deny all this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you did not hear Mr Zulu speak at the conference?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did say at the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: did you hear someone saying the things that Counsel has just read to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not.   I am hearing this for the first time here, I did not hear him say that.  I am hearing this for the first time here, now that he is reading it.

MR STRYDOM: Do you or did you know a person with the name of Mbatha?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know Mbatha.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, I just want to also put to you seeing that this Exhibit W and Exhibit X were handed in, that according to this cell registers, Mr Keswa was not in the hostel on the 15th of June 1992 and he was not in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992.  What do you say about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.  I cannot say he was present on the 15th of June 1992, when the people were being attacked at Sebokeng, I don't know.

MR STRYDOM: So according to you he did not take part in the drive-by shootings on the 15th of June, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I was with him, together with Ndlandla Ndlovu and Xindi.  He was released now and then from prison, so I cannot say really.

MR STRYDOM: But you can't give any explanation why you did not see your friend, Victor Keswa from the 17th when you saw him during the course of the day, that you did not see him thereafter, is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: What possible explanation can he give you other than he did not see him then?  If he didn't see him, he didn't see him.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, maybe - I want to rephrase.  When did you see him again from the time you saw him on the 17th, during the course of the day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I saw him for the last time during the day, he was in the company of Peens.  I did not see him in the evening of that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereafter, when did you see him thereafter?  Did you see him thereafter, after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not.  I saw him for the last time on the 17th.

CHAIRPERSON: You last saw him on the 17th, during the day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You never saw him again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: So in your whole life, you never saw him again after that day, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did not see him even on the 18th.

MR LAX: What we are saying is, you are being asked this and you must listen carefully, I know you have been giving evidence for a long time, the question you are being asked is, after the 17th, did you ever see Victor Keswa again at any time?  Not just on that day, on any other day or any other week or any other month?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying no sir.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: If I mention the name Moses Mthembu, will you be able to identify that person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: Have you heard the name Moses Mthembu before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I am not mistaken, I think I heard about it before.  If I am not mistaken.

MR STRYDOM: But you can't say if he was a person with a position in the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would be lying, I do not know.

MR STRYDOM: Well, I want to put to you that Moses Mthembu is the person in control of the hostel, he is an employee of Iscor and in that capacity he is the person who will hand out rooms and deal with all hostel affairs.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know that.  I will not dispute it.  All that I am saying is that I was issued a room by Mtwana Zulu.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that if you were in the hostel since 1991, you would have arrived there at a stage when Moses Mthembu had been there before you and you would have stayed with Moses Mthembu for a long period, and you would definitely know him.  Can you give any explanation why you don't know him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I want to say is that I did not know many people from Natal who were employees of Iscor.

MR STRYDOM: I am not going to belabour the point, all I can tell you is that Moses Mthembu has been in the Vaal and working for Iscor for many years, and he has been in the hostel since the beginning when that hostel opened or when it was reopened.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that he was residing at the hostel, because there are many people there.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just give an indication till what time you want me to carry on.  I think I've got half an hour's questions left.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: One question?  Maybe I said something wrongly without thinking, but I've got one issue which I want to deal with and that is the happenings on the 18th.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I will try to be quick.  It is difficult to say, it depends obviously on the answers, I want specifics about what happened on the 18th and the reason obviously to find out if the witness was there on the 18th.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't we canvassed that?

MR STRYDOM: I have specific knowledge that was not canvassed that I want to put to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  We will adjourn at this stage, we will resume on Monday at nine o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS