Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes,  I can.  David Mayeko killed Comrade Nthabi and Comrade Themba Golotile and Comrade Uys(?) and Comrade  Mbuyisile Phiri, many few comrades.

UNKNOWN: And you were certain that these people you had just mentioned were killed by David Mayeko and this vigilante group?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, I am certain.

UNKNOWN: It is clear now from your explanation that yourself, yourself I mean the self-defence unit or the ANC Youth League were in two opposing camps with David Mayeko.  And I believe with what they were doing to Khutsong, as a result thereof there was no more peace and stability and all that, but what was the attitude of yourself  as the Youth League towards this vigilante group?  What  did you hope to do and to achieve?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We had intentions of eliminating this group and by doing that we will have established peace in Khutsong.

UNKNOWN: Mr Ncube, were you armed?  Did yourselves as SDUs possess armaments?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: (Answer inaudible)

UNKNOWN: I hear you say you decided on "wiping"  this other group in order  to bring stability.    How did you hope to achieve that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We intended to shoot them.

UNKNOWN: The Committee would like to know how did you intend to shoot them, where will you get the means of shooting them?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We had the armaments to shoot them.  We started
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in the squatter camp and then we got some donations in order
to buy armaments, so that we can be able to prevent this vigilante group for them to come and kill people furthermore.

UNKNOWN: So are you creating the impression to this Committee that your SDUs had the support of the community of Khutsong, hence donations for you to buy armaments or weapons.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: Let's go to the day you killed David Mayeko.  I read from your submission before this Committee that there was a time that you were forced to leave your home and sought refuge in Orlando West Methodist Mission.  When did you come back home?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We came back on the 23rd, 23rd  1990.

UNKNOWN: 23rd of which month?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I don't remember it quite well.

UNKNOWN: The 23rd December 1990.  Was  it the day before you killed David Mayeko, isn't it?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain to this Committee how did you kill David Mayeko, Mr Ncube?  Where were you, where was he and how did you kill him?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: David Mayeko, when I came back from Orlando on  the 23rd, it was at night when I got home.  I was not satisfied after having seen my parents.  We left the very same night to see the Executive  Committee of Khutsong explaining that we've just come back.   We went to see other comrades within the squatter camp and we had  the ammunition that we already got from the Executive in Khutsong and we  went to see these other comrades.  We used the same road.   3	There/...
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There is another section called Xhosa Section.  We used the
very same road to reach our destination at home.  William Faltein went to his home and I was also heading my home.  We had the guns with us.  And when we arrived at 658 at David Mayeko's we saw this same person getting out of the house with his group, a group of vigilantes and they attacked us.  They took out their guns, do you understand me, Sir?  And I also took my gun out. It was a very long gun, a pump gun, and I shot at him.

UNKNOWN: You say David Mayeko was with his other vigilante members.   Are you able  to identify or name these other people who were with David Mayeko?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: The people who were  with David Mayeko were a policeman called Mkonza, it was Scarface, Daniel Sgoqo was there and David Maseko and the others were there but I don't know their names.  They are just people I used to see.  They are policemen as well.   I just happened to forget their names.

UNKNOWN: I believe that Daniel or Mr Sgoqo and Maseko that you mention now, are the ones that you were tried for  having attempted to murder, is it so?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: You and Mr Faltein, did you know that the deceased, I am referring at the time when you were to pass this 685 house you mentioned, did you know they may be there?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, we knew that they would be there and we knew that they were in the house, because that was their headquarters where they hid themselves.

UNKNOWN: Do you say that you armed yourself on that specific day in anticipation of ....(intervention).
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /...
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it not better to just ask the witness
instead of you telling us through the witness why he armed himself?  Would it not weigh a lot more heavier if you were to ask the witness himself to tell us?

UNKNOWN: I will do so.   Why did you arm yourself that time?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: At that time we were armed because we were now going to our different homes.  The reason for having arms,  we wanted to defend ourselves with these guns.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the guns from?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: This was a gun donated to the squatter camp by the comrades and the leaders of the ANC, the leaders within the squatter camp.  They bought the gun.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the gun from that day?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I got the gun from the  ANC branch, because the gun had been bought long time ago and it was just there for me to pick.

JUDGE WILSON: Is this from the ANC Executive Committee?  Where from the ANC?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: ANC Executive Committee.

UNKNOWN: You told this Committee how you killed David Mayeko.  How did you kill him?  Led to you killing him on that day?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: On that day he was actually intending to kill us and we had bad blood with this man,  he wanted my head and  he wanted the co-accused's head.   That was the situation.

UNKNOWN: You said that there was no peace and stability in Khutsong because of the activities of this vigilante group. What happened after the death of David Mayeko, after you killed David Mayeko?
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: There was peace in the township, there was real
peace.  People reconciled because of this person.

UNKNOWN: So in a way you are saying he was the stumbling block to peace and since he was removed peace came back to Khutsong  Township, is it so?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And I believe that was the mission that you hoped to achieve as the ANC at that time,  peace and stability?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: I think my Brother here asked you not to lead the witness.  Let him tell his own story, then we could believe  him.  We can't believe  evidence you are giving.

CHAIRPERSON: You are putting your beliefs to him.

UNKNOWN: I accept that, Chairperson, I will withdraw from putting my beliefs to him and to this Committee.

JUDGE WILSON: When were you arrested?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was arrested in 1991 on the 27th January.

JUDGE WILSON: Was there peace after that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I would say, yes, but the peace never went on for a long time.

UNKNOWN: This robbery, why did you rob?   What did you hope to achieve with robbery?  I mean you had running battles with the vigilantes ... (GAP IN RECORDING ON SWITCH-OVER OF TAPE)

UNKNOWN: My instructions are to the effect that I should abandon proceeding with the amnesty application with respect to the charges of robbery and malicious damage to property and therefore I will refrain from leading evidence on these two charges.

ADV DE JAGER: Is the applicant aware that if he is not
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granted amnesty on those charges, he has been sentenced to
seven years' imprisonment and  he will stay in gaol for seven years?