Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: The person helping you was Mr Doree, orwhat was his name?

ANSWER: Yes it was Coert Doree.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he a former policeman?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he the special policeman that was sentto arrest or to assist with the solution of the Three MillionGang people?

ANSWER: Yes I believe so sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is he in jail now?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know why he's in jail?

ANSWER: No I don't know.

UNKNOWN: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman if youcould just allow me this, I think there's a very serious misunderstandhere which I really would like to clarify, I think in the interestof the applicant here.

CHAIRPERSON: : Proceed.

UNKNOWN: : You remember I asked you about who has beenwriting here or who wrote on this statement of yours?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : I asked you whether it is your Afrikaans thatis written here, do you remember?

ANSWER: Yes I do remember.

<UNKNOWN>: : Then you said yes, did you understand me wellat that time?

ANSWER: Maybe I didn't understand you well at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: I want the Committee to understand clearlyhere what is happening.   I am going to read what is written hereand you must listen to me, but please don't listen to the audiencethey, listen to me because this is very important.  I am goingto read it the way it is written, please look at it there on thetable.   The second sentence reads thus, I'll read it as it iswritten in Afrikaans, tell me whether you understand what is writtenhere
  "Dit was algemeen bekend..."
 My question to you is this "dit was algemeen bekend".

ANSWER: I can't understand you in Afrikaans.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can you please listen attentively, I want theCommittee to understand you.   Don't be scared no one is goingto intimidate you.   When I say in Afrikaans
  "It was generally known..."
do you know what I mean when I say that?

ANSWER: I don't know what you mean in Afrikaans becauseI can't understand this language.

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words you can't hear what I'm saying?

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: : Very well, thank you very much.   You are excused,you can go down.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman there is still one other applicantto be called, but due to time constraints I would move that weadjourn until tomorrow morning, if possible at 9:30.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
(WITNESS NAME NOT GIVEN NOR THAT OF EXAMINER)

<UNKNOWN>: : Now for your application to be accepted orto be successful, you have to show with your evidence and maybesome of your witnesses that your act was politically motivated.  Do you understand me?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: : That your application should be successfulyou should prove, and you should show remorse by telling the truthhere.   In other words you have to open up your chests and youtell us everything that you did, without hiding anything.   Doyou understand?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: : If the Committee is satisfied that you've openedyour mind and that this incident you did was because of politicalsituations, then the Committee will decide.   Do you understand?

ANSWER: Yes I do.

<UNKNOWN>: : Let's start here.   How old are you?

ANSWER: I'm 26 years old.

<UNKNOWN>: : At the time of this incident how old were you?

ANSWER: I was 22 years old.

<UNKNOWN>: : At the time of the incident, let me give youthe dates so that we understand each other.   In your applicationletter you said this incident happened on 30 October 1992?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : When this thing happened, tell the Committeewere you working or were you a student?

ANSWER: I was a student.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where?

ANSWER: At Wodibeng(?).

<UNKNOWN>: : Which standard?

ANSWER: Std 7.

<UNKNOWN>: : Before I carry on, just briefly tell us wherewere you born, where did you grow up?

ANSWER: I was born in Kopies and I grew up in Kopiesfor about 12 years.   In 1982 we moved to Maokeng, Kroonstad.

<UNKNOWN>: : At the time of the incident where your parentsalive?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are they stil alive?

ANSWER: Yes they are still alive.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now in 1992 we have listened to evidence thatthere was a prevailing situation here that was caused by the conflictsbetween the African National Congress Youth League and the peoplewho called themselves the "Three Million".   Do youknow those?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now let's start with the African National Congress.  Do you know African National Congress, do you know what it is?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : At the time of the incident were you a memberor did you affiliate to any political organisation?

ANSWER: Yes, African National Congress.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you a member of this Organisation or wereyou a leader in this Organisation?

ANSWER: I was a member of this African National CongressYouth League.

<UNKNOWN>: : I want to know from you were you a member ofthe ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : In this Youth League what was your role?

ANSWER: I was a member of the SDU.

<UNKNOWN>: : When did you join this Youth League?

ANSWER: In 1987.

<UNKNOWN>: : When you started joining this Youth League,were you trained for political reasons?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : One of the training as regards political mattersis it possible for you to give us the directions you were trainedin that made you to be so energetic in working for this ANC, thisLeague.   The first one?

ANSWER: We were taught that the black people are not,we are not recognised and our voice is not heard and then we willhave to fight for ourselves with an organisation so that we, asblack people, we can be heard.

<UNKNOWN>: : Remember in 1990 when these organisations wereunbanned, in other words the organisations that were banned beforelike the Pan Africanist Congress, African National Congress andothers.   When the were unbanned, did you realise that you cannow freely operate in political matters without any oppression?

ANSWER: No oppression was still there.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm asking do you still remember those days?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you still remember the days when our PresidentMandela was released in 1990?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words you had already interest inpolitics then?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Briefly tell us what were you actually doingwithin the self-defence units, now these self-defence units thatyou've talked about.   What were you actually supposed to do?

ANSWER: As the self-defence units we were there to protectthe community against the oppression and from the gangsters thatwere against the community.

<UNKNOWN>: : You understand that a teacher's work is toteach, a preacher's work is to preach in the church.   What wasyour role in this self-defence unit?

ANSWER: It was to protect the community as well as ourselves.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it to protect the community against what?

ANSWER: Against the harassment from the Three MillionGang.

<UNKNOWN>: : What was the Three Million Gang doing?

ANSWER: This gang was harassing and killing the ANC followersand innocent people.

<UNKNOWN>: : You say they were harassing the ANC members,now I want you to explain you as a member of this SDU, was therea case where you were personally harassed or where they triedto hurt you, the members of Three Million?

ANSWER: Yes they have been searching for me but theycouldn't find me.   They went to my home but they couldn't findme, they ended up harassing my brother who is now on a wheelchair.

<UNKNOWN>: : Explain what happened to Sugudu, your brother,who is now on a wheelchair, explain was he already on a wheelchairwhen he was harassed?

ANSWER: Yes he was already on a wheelchair.

<UNKNOWN>: : What was he suffering from?

ANSWER: He collided with a car and he was injured onthe spinal cord.

<UNKNOWN>: : What sort of harassment did he get?

ANSWER: They stabbed him with knives.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where?

ANSWER: They stabbed him three wounds.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you still remember where did they stab him?

ANSWER: Yes.