Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes, that was the time but I explained before that there was - word had come from President Makwetu that people should ...(indistinct) to vote and then before Sabelo Palma said that there's going to be Operation Great Storm.
There were people who wanted to go for elections and there were those who were not prepared to go for elections.

ADV BOSMAN: Just in conclusion, you say your passion for the military developed after the release of the present State President and after negotiations had started, is that correct?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No.  After AWB disturbed the negotiations at the World Trade Centre, that is where I saw that white people are not prepared that there should be peace in South Africa.  That is what made me ...(indistinct) to go for military training.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did at that stage, where did Monde live?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I don't know where he was staying.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you used to get to meet him regularly and speak to him regularly during the period June '93 until the occurrence of these incidents in January?  You said you met him regularly and used to meet with him?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: My friend is Kopane.  One day when I visited Kopane, I found him together with Monde.  They were discussing political issues, then with the bit I had I contributed.  That is where Monde explained to me in full about the political realities in our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you hand all the loot, save for the watch that you forgot about, to Monde?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: In terms of my knowledge, the commander is a senior of a particular group.  That is the person who is responsible for every issue or for every property which has been found anywhere as a commander he is responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why the commander would then have left the greater proportion of the loot, the T.V's, the electrical appliances etc at the rented premises of somebody who is not a member of APLA or the PAC who he's taking down to Transkei for training for no doubt a lengthy period of time?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: As Kopane was a supporter of the PAC, therefore Monde had to trust in him, that is why he did that.

CHAIRPERSON: No but what I'm saying is, wasn't Kopane with you in the car going for training to Transkei?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes he was present in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Which means that Kopane was going to be away from the place where he stayed, not his home, the place which he rented, the room which he rented, for a long period of time?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I would say that.

CHAIRPERSON: So why leave the loot in that room where it would no doubt be most vulnerable when the landlord could probably could get access to it at any time, you don't know when you're going to go back to it?  Why leave it there?  Do you have any idea?  If you don't just tell me.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That place is not in a house, it was a shack house within the yard so he was staying in a separate house therefore Kopane was staying with his wife.  Then what I would say that in their absence the wife, Kopane's wife would take care of the property or of the loot.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know of any reason why the loot wasn't taken in the vehicles that were on there way to Transkei or at least the Mercedes which was going through to Transkei?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No I have no knowledge or reason.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left to go to Transkei, is it correct that Monde and Nkabinde, the first applicant, were in the Mercedes and you, Thabang and the fifth member were in the Toyota?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I remember that I was in - there was a Conquest and there was a Mercedes Benz.  I don't remember well as to whether in which car I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the first applicant says you were in the Toyota, the Conquest.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I would say that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what happened to the Conquest?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: On the road we found the Mercedes Benz waiting for us on the road.  Then Monde and he informed us that we should get out of the Conquest and go inside the Mercedes Benz.

CHAIRPERSON: So where about was the Conquest left?  Because what we've heard, you must have heard it yourself, it could have been in two different places.  Where about was it, can you describe the place where it was left?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It's not far from the tollgate.  After passing the tollgate, just a distance after that.  What I remember is a tollgate then there is a place because it was dark, there's a place after the tollgate, that's where we left the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Who drove the Toyota?  Did you drive it?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No, it was driven by Thabang.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Thabang also going to Transkei for training?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No Chairperson, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we see from the affidavit from the first applicant when we're talking about the incident that occurred in Parkview, the Stanton's home, where he said that you were armed with a shotgun and you said "no I had a handgun".  Did you see a shotgun, was anybody armed with a firearm other than a handgun, with a rifle type of firearm?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: We had guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Handguns?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Handguns.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of the questions being put by the panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I have no questions really arising but I would like Mr Chairperson to give me another opportunity for the sake of truth, go to the truth of the whole thing.  I'm sorry to ...(indistinct) my learned friend that side, also the Committee, I'll pick up something which I thought that I'd raised earlier on.  At page 48, Mr Chairperson, of the bundle, judgment.  I'll think it will be starting from line 6.  I'm reading
"From accused one, that is Mrs Pansi, who was a nurse at Smithfield hospital, she took a watch and a considerable amount of money which she also placed in the envelope.  She maintained that accused one asked her to phone his house and to leave a message with whomsoever and said that he must remove everything from the house.  She very intelligently conveyed this message to a police officer."
Now my first question would be, did you have any money with you when you went to Transkei and if you had money, how much money did you have and where did you get it?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: The money I had on my person, I don't remember whether it was R100 or R110.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Where did you get the money?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is the money I took from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me interpose, Mr Mbandazayo, at that time January '94, were you employed at all?  Did you have a job?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No, I was doing part time jobs.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So when you say that the money that you took from the house are you meaning the Jacobs or Stanton's house or from your home?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I requested that money at home.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now next point is, Mrs Pansi's saying that you asked her to phone home so that everything should be removed, whatever is in your home.  What do you say to that and she passed that information on to the police?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Who is that person you are talking about?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The nurse in the hospital at Smithfield.  Mrs Pansi was a nurse.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it's just been read out to you, this is the nurse, a Mrs Pansi at the Smithfield Hospital where you were and she said that you asked her to telephone your home and to leave a message and say that they must remove everything from the house?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you - sorry Mr Chair - were you not accused number one in the trial?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Accused number one was Monde.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Monde at the trial?  When did Monde die?