Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: When we came back we did not have any money at all but we were told that we were going to get the money inside the country.  We were told that our enemies were in possession of whatever we were in need of.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I then correct that inasmuch as you were in a unit, of repossession unit, you have to declare the money.  The money was also going to be used for your sustenance in order for you to pursue the struggle?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is quite correct.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo?  Advocate Bosman, any questions to put to the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know whether the South African denominations were expected in Botswana at the time when you took the money over?  The South African money, was that accepted generally in Botswana for use?

CHAIRPERSON: I've got no clarity with regards to that but Botswana uses the same currency so that other members of our unit who came to South Africa were able to use the money.

ADV BOSMAN: How many members exactly were there in the unit?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We started off being four members of the unit but as time went on the numbers grew and we got to be a unit of six members.

ADV BOSMAN: Now let me just come back then to the cumulative effect of the small amounts.  It would seem then as you need a terrific amount of money for your sustenance?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you live well?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We were living in hard times, it was very difficult.  The sums of money that we got were a pittance, it was just for us to keep head above water.

ADV BOSMAN: What happened to the other members of the unit who participated in the incident in question?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I don't know where the other members are but I think the others were integrated into the army and others went to Tanzania.  As to whether they came back and rejoined the PAC or what happened, I've got no clarity insofar as that is concerned because I was in prison or I'm still in prison.

ADV BOSMAN: It would seem as though those members of the unit did not apply for amnesty, do you find that surprising?  Only you applied?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I'm not even aware of that, as I've already explained that I have no knowledge as to their whereabouts, why they didn't apply for amnesty, whether they applied or they didn't.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Bosman.  Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Maseko, there are just a few things that I want to pursue for the sake of clarify.  If I understood you correctly, you originally report to Msiki, he was in Botswana, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct at that time.

MR MALAN: From when to till when did you report to Msiki, was it from the moment you came back to the country?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes up to the end of 1991.  I think it was 1990 because in 1991 I was in the Transkei.  I only reported to him for a short while.

MR MALAN: And when you went to the Transkei you reported to Letslape Mpashlele?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So as far as the activities that you're applying for now, this specific incident is concerned, you have no knowledge of any of your comrades in the unit at the time where they are presently, none of them?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No I do not know.

MR MALAN: You don't know where Mr Msiki is that you reported to?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct, I don't know where he is.

MR MALAN: You don't know where he is?  And at some stage you said you took money to Mandla Lenin?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes when I was in Transkei because he was also in Transkei.

MR MALAN: I did not get the translation?

INTERPRETER: When I was in Transkei because he was also in Transkei.
	The speakers mike is not on.

MR MALAN: Sorry.  You said that you took money to the administrator Mandla Lenin who is late now, he died whilst you were in prison, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct, Mandla was in the Transkei and at the time I was in the Transkei.

MR MALAN: And so he was not involved in receiving money when you operated in this part of the country, Gauteng part of the country here on the Rand?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct, as from 1991 up to when I got arrested.

MR MALAN: You see my difficult is really that you're giving us your information in terms of disclosing to us but there is no source of reference where we can corroborate anything.  The only corroboration to your application is an affidavit by Mr Mpashlele who can only really corroborate what he has knowledge of and this dates subsequent to these incidents.  Specifically to the incident in terms of which you're now applying.  Is there no other place we can verify the information?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, through you Madam Chair, just if I can jump in on this matter.  Madam Chair and some of the Members of the Committee will bear me also, Advocate Prior will bear me, we have difficulties on this matter, the reason being that we are unable to trace the names which is the operational names which were used.  We are busy even now with the South African Police Services which are in possession of the names, their file names regarding this matter so we are having problem in getting the information because also the numbers of the high command of APLA who want to assist to say, so and so is so and so, they can't tell us that because the problem is that you find that one name was used by six different people.  Now if they can't get the books to tell it was so and so who operated at such and such a place at such and such a time, so it becomes very difficult, so it's the problem we are still faced with.  Now coming to this question of Mandla, he came many a times, he appeared in many applications that he was an administrator in the PAC or in the APLA, for APLA in Umtata, so the monies were handed to him as an administrator of the office of APLA.  Subsequently it was Mandla Nsikilana, Madam Chair, he was from Cape Town.  He subsequently died, he had a - I don't know whether it was brain damage it was sustained but he subsequently died.  So we are having problems when it comes to these things because the most important documents are in the hands of the South African Police Services which can through some light.  Also I've spoken to the chief leader, Advocate Mpshe, he is also assisting and I've been in touch with Judge Wilson which is vice-Chair who is assisting also.  The police to hand over the document which we are having it very difficult, I even had a meeting with Judge Wilson in Durban with Letslape Mpahlele regarding these issues.  The problem in the document which are in the hands of the SAPS.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  You would of course when the time is appropriate give us an appropriate address in respect of this issue when you present us with your oral argument.

MR MALAN: Mr Maseko, the difficulty still in term of checks and controls.  Mr Mbandazayo has now explained to us now the difficulty but from Mr Prior's questioning one gets the impression that you came back, Mr Maseko, into the country, you started up a unit, that was your instructions, you commanded it, there was certain report channels or structures but the instruction was simply to repossess for the purposes of the struggle.  Amounts no guidelines as to what really was looked for and you could have operated if you look at your application from page 3 onwards, you could have operated on stealing amounts of R500, R300, R50, R600, all through without ever reporting because that would have been within the brief that you came back to repossess, is that understanding correct?