Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: I have no objections to them reserving their rights for a limited time also depending on Dr Lourens' availability and his attorney's availability.  I do confirm that Mr van Zyl and I had that conversation.  I believe that we have complied with our legal obligations.  I'm not sure exactly which client I'm talking about, but if you talk about Dr Wouter Basson, if you look at item 18 on his subpoena, we say,
"the planning and/or execution of operations directed at the assassination or incapacitation of persons by the use of poisonous substance or any other means."
I also refer to TRC 96, a document which we gave to Dr Basson and therefor to his attorneys.  We've talked about the problems of the screwdriver which wasn't shooting out enough of the assumed poison.  Clearly we have raised - we have met our obligations in terms of Du Preez v Van Rensburg, page 41.  I'll just read the relevant part,
"He or she's at the same time informed of the substance of the allegation against him or her with sufficient detail to know what the case is all about.  Application of poison or mechanism not being properly effect."
If that's not a substance of allegations, what is?  But I don't have an objection to their requests, dependant on Dr Lourens' legal representative.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, we would obviously want some idea as to when they will be ready.  I don't think that Dr Lourens should have to sit here day after day waiting for the moment when counsel are now ready to cross-examine him.  They must indicate and say look, we'll do it tomorrow or we'll do it on Wednesday so that he can then make himself available for that cross-examination, but we need to know when it's going to be.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think it is fair to say that even from the Commission's side, this hearing is scheduled for this week.  We are constrained, as everybody else knows, to bring to Commission to a conclusion.  Mr van Zyl, do you have an ability to indicate when, that would go for Mr du Plessis as well, when more or less in the week, is it possible to indicate in the week preferably when it will be possible for you to examine cross-examination.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, of course we will try and inform you as soon as possible.  I am in a position to make contact with my clients.  I can get instructions during the course of the evening.  There's only aspect that might be a bit of a problem, although I have made notes, during the evidence of this, I will have to depend on my notes in order to inform my clients what the exact evidence against him was.  It would have been of course of great help if we could have had the record of the proceedings very soon, I don't know how soon it is available, and how soon can get it.  If it's at all possible that we can get it within the next day or two, because that will help, if not and you inform me that it will only be available, say for example next week, we have to deal with the problem with what we have at our disposal.  We don't want to delay any of your proceedings here, for any purpose whatsoever, but we will in the meantime with what we've got at hand advise our clients and give them what we've got and get instructions from them.  I can suggest that my attorney who is present maybe get a telephone number of Mr Vally or someone that we can maybe call after-hours or whenever and then we can give an indication, and I can assure you that we will do it as soon as possible.  It's unfortunately not possible for me at this point in this to tell you we will be ready tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow, or whenever, before I've got instructions from my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin, can you indicate?

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, what I would suggest is that Dr Lourens be excused today, and that I'll be here the whole week, that we be given 24 hours notice.  Say for example they feel they going to be ready to do him on Thursday, on Wednesday morning they must say to us we can cross-examine tomorrow, I'll get hold of Dr Lourens, and he can fly back to Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it should be a sort of triangular arrangement.  It should also incorporate and involve Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Oh, absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: So that he can slot it.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I don't have an objection.  This is an agreement we will abide to and ...(indistinct) will also abide to that decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, the panel, before I ask members of the panel to put questions to the witness, may I just find out if any of the legal representatives is representing General Lothar Neethling.

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, I'm also - he's also one of my clients.  Just for the record again, it's General Neethling, Drs Swanepoel, Mijburgh and Basson are my clients.  Mr Du Plessis is here for General Knobel.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and your remarks would therefore include Dr Neethling.

MR CILLIERS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Any members of the panel.  Dr Boraine?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair.  Dr Lourens let me start with the point of departure that the Chairperson himself went onto, in connection with your discussion and attempts to contact the then Minister of Defence, the then Surgeon General and the then Head of the Army, General Liebenberg.  Now, clearly when Charles van Remoortrere bought into that company, this really spilled the beans in so far as you had to give account of what had been happening, where the money had been spent, is that right?

JAN LOURENS: Absolutely right, Dr Boraine.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  This clearly must have sent alarm signals in your own mind because after all, you had to account  for it, and I assume it was for that reason that you decided that you'll really have to talk to the people at the very top so as to get an indication of exactly what you could say and how you could explain it and so on, is that right?

JAN LOURENS: Yes, Charles and I had been very close and we've worked very closely together for a long period of time, and at no stage was any aspect of the project discussed with Charles from my side.  If Charles had been briefed by anybody else in terms of this type of work, and he could have been briefed by only one or two individuals, he never made it visible, so we never discussed this part of the project, so at the time that the money issue became available, of became known, it was quite obvious to me that it was news to him, or new to him, and yes, I was frankly petrified at that stage, because I didn't know where to go to.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  What sort of sums of money were involved?

JAN LOURENS: I can't recall exactly, but it was in the vicinity of R190 000.

UNKNOWN: So that's more or less the kind of costing for the screwdrivers and other ...(intervention)

JAN LOURENS: It was all the projects.  It included a few trips to Europe for example, the walking sticks and umbrella and so forth to not to be able to trace it back to South Africa, and that was purchases especially for the particular project.  So yes, it was for all those applicators, if you want.

UNKNOWN: And Dr Lourens, you must have known that those walking sticks were not meant for walking, or the umbrellas for the rain, I mean you must have been pretty, pretty upset, or disturbed or agreed with the need to supply to someone, we assume assassins, the necessary cover weapons so that they could use them in - to assassinate?