Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, unless of course as I mentioned, if those particular two shots were the shots involved in the attempted murders, the incident that he refers to that took place outside that meeting?

MR HEWITT: No, I submit that they are closely related, but I am not going to contend that they are the same shots.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairman, if I can possibly place on record which I believe is a fact that is common cause between myself and Mr Hewitt that the attempted murders occurred at different places, to the school where the two other shots were discharged.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any further cross-examination, besides on that point?

MR HEWITT: No further cross-examination.  Just following on from what my learned friend, Mr Wills, has stated.  It would be common cause that the attempted murder incident took place at the homes of Khumalo and Mchunu respectively, and certainly not at the meeting that is being testified to.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewitt.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask Mr Sithole?

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I notice it is after quarter past four, but I think if we can proceed until we have finished this particular hearing, it shouldn't be too long.

MR WILLS: I have no objection Mr Chairperson.

MR HEWITT: I am sorry to interrupt again Mr Chairman, but in the light of my redundancy in these proceedings from this moment on, could I possibly be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR HEWITT: At this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Hewitt.

MR HEWITT: Thank you.

MS THABETE: Mr Sithole, in your memorandum in support of your application, the first page, you state that when you left the University and began teaching, you were involved in setting up structures, affiliated with the UDF.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Can you briefly explain what those structures were and how were they set up?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Prior to my teaching at Imanga high school, I was a student at the University of Zululand, so at the University of Zululand, I had a brother by consent of surnames, Sithole, who was also very (indistinct), in terms of working for the UDF at the time.
	He was responsible also for setting up of structures around Empangeni and he was also working with me.  Most of the time we moved from Empangeni, that is at (indistinct) where I was and then come to the University for consultation, and then we carried on the work, in terms of one publicity for United Democratic Front.
	All the pamphlets in that area at that time, were actually distributed by us into that area.  All announcements of meetings, whether it will be held in Durban or wherever, we were actually responsible for informing structures in those areas.  Not necessarily secretive structures, just ordinary structures, where you have access to the people and informing them about the existence of a meeting in UDF and so forth and so forth.

MS THABETE: In the same page, you talk about the fact that you were called to a school and then went to Welisani for a meeting, is that correct?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is correct, in fact, in actual fact I was (indistinct) to be more precise.

MS THABETE: Who called you to this meeting?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: It was the Chairperson of the school committee, of the school where I was a teacher.

MS THABETE: Can you give us the names of the people who were in that meeting?  The people who actually spoke to you?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: It will be difficult, but I know it was a lot of them.  I think it has been on the newspapers, the incident was also in the newspapers.
	What I still remember was the school teacher, the Chairman of the school committee who actually took me down to the meeting.

MS THABETE: You are saying you don't remember the names of the other people who were in the meeting?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: It is a number of them, one of them was Kulikani Magubani for instance.  One of the known perpetrators of violence around Empangeni area, who I think was also eliminated by people in that area.

MS THABETE: When you were still teaching at Imanga, what activities were you engaged in?  I mean politically which led to you being identified or targeted?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Mainly it was UDF activities, more than anything.

MS THABETE: Doing what?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Organising youth to attend UDF meetings.  In that area it was not acceptable, that is what I would say.

MS THABETE: You have also testified that you distributed arms to the MK Commanders, so to say, or MK cadres who had identified their needs in the communities for such arms?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Correct.

MS THABETE: What I want to know is how did you identify the places that needed such firearms or did you rely solely on the MK cadres?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: I said before that when information comes from the branches or the areas, not the branches of the ANC, from the areas that are under attack, people will come into the ANC offices, our offices as MK were in the office.  When there are incidents where people are reporting about attacks, most of that information was referred to us as MK in the MK office, within the ANC offices.
	To our own comrades who were involved as Commanders, on all these areas, they would gather information and then take it back to the ANC office, that is how we had access.  When it was a natural cause that when there is a plight of people, they will even go to the ANC office and sleep there, ordinary women and children and say we are under attack.
	On a number of occasions, there have been a number of people coming into the ANC office, complaining that they are under attack in their respective areas.

MS THABETE: In your evidence you also made it clear that you conducted training of MK cadres.  Were any community members that belonged to SDU's, trained as well?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, of course.  We never saw MK as (indistinct), operating independently.  We felt we were members of the communities where we are coming from.
	The resource base for members of the so-called trained MK operatives, were the same families as we were coming from, same communities where they were coming from.  I was coming from kwaMashu and then, that is where I belong.
	If anything happens in kwaMashu, then I have to be concerned.  In terms of training we mandated, I can quote one incident where we went to Umkababa with comrade Ian Phillips one day, at night, and then because we didn't want the people, those young comrades who were in there, to see us, but in terms of addressing them, teaching them of what is expected of them, then we were in a position to communicate with them.
	We say chaps, this is what the ANC demands of you, they demand discipline more than anything else.

MS THABETE: Okay, in your evidence as well, you speak about the fact that all the acts that were committed by SDU's were within the mandate of the ANC policies.  What I want to know is, you also say that you also received reports on what used to happen in the different communities.
	What I want to know from you is, in those reports that you received, were there any reports received by you, where the SDU's had acted beyond the policies of the ANC?