Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Before or after the time?

MR SAMUEL: Before this.  Before the incident.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Before this incident I was at her house, yes.

MR SAMUEL: And would I be correct in saying that you knew that the place where you disposed of the body, was far away from her house where people would not have recognised her.  Is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Preez, that concludes your evidence.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the lunch adjournment and resume at say 2 o'clock.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, before this witness is released, I'd like to at least take the opportunity of arranging with my learned friend that he, after hours possibly, takes us to the scene where the body was dumped.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could, perhaps during the lunch interval, speak with Mr Wagener or Mr Visser in this regard.

MR VISSER: And I'm sure at the same time my learned friend will hand us some photographs which we've been after.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I don't know if there is going to be an inspection.  If it is, then maybe also the shooting range might be worthwhile visiting.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm not certain to what end all these inspections in loco are necessary but if they are one would imagine that the Committee would have to go along as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is what I was thinking, that's why I was saying, if you're discussing it, if there is going to be one, also include the shooting range.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity to discuss the possibility of going off on an inspection?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Firstly on the photographs, I just want to place on record that the family have no problem in handing over photographs.  The problem being is that the family homes are no longer in the kwaZulu Natal area and the family is employed in Pretoria and obviously Mr Khubeka is in Denmark, but we will endeavour to get those photographs as soon as possible and hand them over.  We have no objection to do that.  I have discussed with Mr Wagener the types of photographs he wants and we'll try and oblige in that regard.
	As regards inspection, I think we've agreed that it's necessary.  I think most parties around the table are in agreement with that.  It's the timing that hasn't been resolved.  We are of the view and when I say "we", myself and Mr Samuel are of the view that it would be better served if we did the inspection sooner rather than later in order that that would assist us in our cross-examination of the future witnesses.  Also, it's my experience that the inspection is usually done at the beginning of trials fro that specific purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Also, listening to the weather forecast last night, it seems that we might be getting rain in the not too distant future.

MR WILLS: I'm pleased to hear that.  Mr Visser however is that he'd rather have his witnesses led and completed prior to us doing this inspection.  Unfortunately we can't come to an agreement on that and so we leave that in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, two considerations.  Well the first point is, I'm not entirely convinced in my own mind as far as that might be worth anything, that an inspection is essential, either of the one or the other spot, but by the same token, we have no objection.  But Mr Chairman, there are two considerations why we would submit that the evidence should be heard before we go off on an inspection.  The first is, it is not critical at this stage for the inspection to be held, as my learned friend has pointed out, for the trial to proceed smoothly and we believe it's proper, Mr Chairman, that an applicant should give his evidence first and that thereafter an inspection be held, so that his evidence can in that sense be tested.  Mr Chairman, secondly, the applicants are here in their own interest, we are fully aware of that, but there are some of my applicants who are working for themselves.  Mr van der Westhuizen is a contractor who is working in the Transkei, making roads, and in Dundee and Newcastle and he looses a lot of money by being here, so does Mr Botha and we would prefer to deal with the next two witnesses and thereafter Mr Chairman, we would be entirely in your hands as to when and how and if, you wish to conduct an inspection in loco.  Those are our views.

CHAIRPERSON: Our view is - I think we would agree that an inspection in loco is not essential in the sense that if we didn't have one, we couldn't arrive at a decision in this matter, but I think it would be helpful to have one.  Sorry Mr Visser, if we went on an inspection, wouldn't it be advisable that the applicants are also there?

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly. but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So this question about the timing is not all that important because whether it's now or later they'll be there to either agree or disagree on what is said.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, if I may reply in this way - if the inspection is only going to take place next week, then I'm going to ask for some of the witnesses, of the applicants to be excused.  I'm hoping that we can finish the last two witnesses and do this inspection this week still, Mr Chairman, but I don't want to, with respect, run the risk of the matter going over until a later date and one or more of the two witnesses not having given their evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, also another point raised in my brief discussion with my colleagues is...(end of tape) cut down on unnecessary questions regarding the locations.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I will leave the decision in your able hands.

CHAIRPERSON: And also another thing Mr Visser, I think we would be extremely fortunate if this matter finishes this week it would seem.

MR VISSER: We'll never finish this week.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what I'm saying.  We won't in any event finish this week.  I don't think there's any realistic prospect of that.  We would prefer it if it was sooner rather than later.  We don't want to be obstructive or anything of that nature, but I don't think the inspection will take too long.  What about this afternoon?

MR VISSER: If you want to leave right now, Mr Chairman, we'll leave with you.