Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

MR COOK: My problem is not with you and I trust your bona fides, I just don't want kind of surprises might be sprung by my colleagues sitting next to me.
	I would like to call General J L Griebenauw, that is the General which as I promised last time I would call to testify and he will testify now.  I would like to ask that he sit next to me because as far as the questions that might be asked of him are concerned, he might need legal advice to answer these questions.  I really don't think it's necessary for him to sit in front.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Cook, I don't understand what you mean when you say that he will have to get legal advice before he answers certain questions - if he's a witness, he's a witness and a witness does not get legal advice regarding his evidence as such.

MR COOK: I don't know what the procedure is because he's not an applicant, he can refuse to answer certain incriminating questions and he has to answer only as far as it is relevant to Captain Benzien's application and if the questioning is too wide, then he can refuse to answer.

ADV DE JAGER: But when it gets to that, you can actually object.

MR COOK: Yes, I have no problem with that, I would have liked him however to sit next to me but the General says he has no problem to sit in the front.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cook, you better take the stand where
witnesses take please.

MR COOK: While the witness is walking to his seat I could perhaps just hand in a copy, these are copies of General Griebenauw's statement.

ADV DE JAGER: Your full names?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: (sworn states)

MR COOK: Thank you.   Could you perhaps give your rank at this stage and what the situation is - where are you at this stage?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I'm a retired Major General in the South African police.  On the 31st of July 1992, I retired with the rank of Major General.

MR COOK: You don't have to write that down, that is all part of the document which I've just given you - page 1, paragraph 1.
	Where were you stationed at that stage - just before you retired?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I was in Pretoria.

MR COOK: You were at head office - Crime Information Service, is that correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR COOK: Now Paragraph 2, could you explain your period in office?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: For the largest part of my period in office I was attached to the security branch and in that capacity I served in the following posts
Windhoek, from 1964 to 1974 as an investigating officer in the security branch.
1975 - East London as commanding officer of that investigating unit, once again security branch.
1982 - Paarl, second in command, security branch in the Boland.
1983 to 1985 in Cape Town as commanding officer of the investigative unit in Cape Town.
1986 - May to 1989 as the commanding officer of the security branch in Border, East London.
1989 - May to December 1989, second in command security branch Western Cape.
December 1989 to December 1990, regional commanding officer, security branch Western Cape.
January 1991 to July 1992, in Pretoria - Crime Investigation and Information.
From the 1st of August 1992 to May 1993, I was seconded to the Qwandabele Government where I acted as the commissioner of police.

MR COOK: Do you know Superintendent Liebenberg and Captain Benzien?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, indeed.  Superintendent Liebenberg during my first period in office in Cape Town, fell under my direct command and during my second period of office, I was his overall commanding officer.  During my second period of office in Cape Town, I was Captain Benzien's overall commanding officer.

MR COOK: Is it correct that you've read both these gentlemen's amnesty applications?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR COOK: And arising from that and also certain documents which you've perused and to which you will refer quite soon, could you try to place their applications in the proper perspective?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.   Unfortunately I have to take it quite far back, as far back as 1961 where the ANC/SACP Alliance and other organisations but in particular the ANC, changed their struggle to an armed struggle.  I'm sorry, may I just look at my document, I think it's incomplete - my apologies.
	The Government of the day in whose service each and every member of the South African police was, they determined policy and expected of it's officials to actually carry out policy.  And it was common cause that the liberation organisations were striding for the toppling of the South African Government and that that Government expected of the security forces to avert the so-called "total onslaught".

ADV DE JAGER: Are you now reading on page 2, paragraph five?