Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

ADV BOSMAN: General, according to my notes you said that Mamela was according to your information was at that stage an informed man and leader of a terrorist group.  You used the words "at that stage", did you then receive more or different information at a later stage?

GEN STEYN: No, no we didn't receive any other information at any other stage.

ADV BOSMAN: So those words are not that important.  Alright and then I just want to find out from you Breytenbach's name was specifically mentioned by you and the previous witness and he was actually implicated in this attack.  Did Lt Breytenbach have anything to do with the inquest into this matter or did he never figure again?

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, I'm not sure whether he made a statement as far as the inquest was concerned but as far as my knowledge goes I think that some of the members made statements and I think he made a statement but I'm not entirely sure whether he made a statement personally.

ADV BOSMAN: Is he still in the police?

GEN STEYN: Yes in Durban.

ADV BOSMAN: And you don't know whether he applied for amnesty for this?

GEN STEYN: He definitely did not apply for amnesty.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  One arising and one other small issue that I'd just like to canvass, General?  You mentioned that the other three people who were with Mamela were internally trained people you said.  Did I hear that correctly?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR LAX: And how did you verify that information?

GEN STEYN: It was information that I received from Taylor and from Van Sittert and it may have been from some other people, it could have been on file as well.

MR LAX: Did you ex post facto check any of this information yourself or follow it up in any way?

GEN STEYN: No, I did not do so.

MR LAX: And then just the other issue that I just wanted to clarify and it arose it out of, I overhead you saying something while there was an interaction between the Chair and Mr Webster, it was to do with whether you had spoken to Breytenbach over the radio or not and I heard you say something to the effect "Yes I did actually contact him" and I just want to be clear about that?

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, if I can recall correctly what I had said, in that there is there at some instance I said but without using any radio terms, I spoke quickly to say that we are going in this direction and we observed the vehicle, not necessarily Breytenbach but any other persons who could hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You are excused from further attendance.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there may be one question that I might want - but may I confer with the witness before I do so?

CHAIRPERSON: Do that Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Yes Chairperson, not to keep you in the dark, it was a question of whether the General felt that I could make available to the Committee in privacy more information about the informer but he feels that he does not want to take that risk, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will not be able to finish this matter now.  The next applicant will take some time, a witness in a part heard matter has become available and we would like to dispose of that witness because we are told that witness won't take too much time but in the time that is available between now and this afternoon we would like to dispose of this so that we can commence with your matter tomorrow morning.  Pardon, what is it?

MS THABETHE: I want to suggest, Chairperson, I mean it won't take long, the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Webster, then I can't excuse you, please hang on for a while?

MS THABETHE: Yes, so that when we finish we proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry about that, I thought I might excuse you.

MR WEBSTER: Notwithstanding Chairperson, I know who my ...(inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, this concerns the part heard matter some of which we heard this morning and apparently a statement has been handed to you this morning and that woman is - the lady herself is available to give evidence and the leader of evidence proposes to call her to give evidence so may we now switch over from the present matter to go back to that Cele application?

MR VISSER: Certainly Chairperson, it will not inconvenience us in the least.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, how very, very kind of you, Sir.

MR LAX: Chair, I see Mr Wills is here.  He indicated he wanted to say something.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CELESTE MORRISON: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry that ...(inaudible) such a long time but it is beyond our control and this is the best we can do now, so will you please proceed?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mrs Morrison, can you tell us how you are related to Mr Goodwill Sikhakane?

CELESTE MORRISON: I was his common law wife.

MS THABETHE: Where were you staying in 1988?

CELESTE MORRISON: I was in Mozambique.  No sorry, I was in South Africa in 1988.

MS THABETHE: In 1988?

CELESTE MORRISON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And can you tell us what was your relationship to Dion Cele?

CELESTE MORRISON: Well Dion Cele was my husband's friend.

MS THABETHE: And can you tell the Committee - maybe before I do that Mr Chair can I be allowed to hand in the statements of Mrs Morrison?  It's two statements, the one page statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: I'm not sure how far we were with our exhibits, if my learned colleague can assist me in that Dion Cele?

MR VISSER: We've reached H Chairperson, so we either go to I or J.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, the hand-written document will be Exhibit J and the typed document will be Exhibit K.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed?

MS THABETHE: I beg to hand them in, Chairperson, the said exhibits.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell the Committee what led to Dion Cele being abducted as far as you know?

CELESTE MORRISON: Well he was abducted because Goodwill Sikhakane had to prove himself to the Special Branch that he was ready to work for them.

MS THABETHE: When did Goodwill Sikhakane start to work for the Security Branch?  When did he begin to work for them?

CELESTE MORRISON: In 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that question, the answer is a bit confusing to me, Goodwill Sikhakane had to prove to the Security Branch that he was ready to work for them, who?  Cele or Goodwill himself?

CELESTE MORRISON: Goodwill himself.

CHAIRPERSON: He was at that stage, he wasn't an informer?

CELESTE MORRISON: He was, he was just starting to.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so it was in order to prove his bona fides, he suggested that we might be able to recruit Dion Cele, is that what you're saying?

CELESTE MORRISON: I beg your pardon, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that in order to prove his own commitment to the police in the Security Branch he suggested that he might persuade Dion Cele to be an informer?

CELESTE MORRISON: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Well tell us what you mean?

CELESTE MORRISON: Well he was told by the Special Branch that he should actually abduct Dion Cele.

MS THABETHE: The applicants have given evidence before the Committee that it's Goodwill Sikhakane that came to them and informed them that Dion Cele was willing to be recruited or rather let me put it, to work with the Security Branch.  What is your response to that evidence?

CELESTE MORRISON: No that's not true.

MS THABETHE: Why do you say so?

CELESTE MORRISON: Because there was no such thing.  If he was willing to work for Special Branch why did he have to be abducted?

MS THABETHE: You've also indicated that the abduction of Dion Cele occurred in July 1988 and not - sorry, not in July 1988 but in April 1988, is that correct?

CELESTE MORRISON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You have also indicated in your statement, Exhibit J, the hand-written statement, that Mr Goodwill Sikhakane did not drive the car, the driver was a white person.  Do you remember saying that in your statement?

CELESTE MORRISON: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Drive which car when?