Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MEY: Are you sure?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR MEY: But how do you explain then all these discrepancies in the statement, according to your evidence, that you gave here before the Committee which was put to you in cross-examination by various Counsel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, all I want to establish at this stage is previously you said there was a misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: He says he doesn't know, what else must he say now.

MR MEY: I will leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the answer to the question.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, where - can I ask you this, where your evidence differs from the statement which was signed, Exhibit R pages 18 to 22, the correct version is your evidence that you gave here before the Committee, now what is written in your statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is the evidence that I rendered on Monday.

MR MEY: Last week Monday?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR MEY: That was your evidence in chief?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mey, the witness must be referring to the evidence that he has given us here, his evidence was not only given on Monday.  He has been a witness for the passed five days, this is the sixth day on the witness stand.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, when Peens and Chaka visited you at Vereeniging, where were you held?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was held at the Vereeniging Police station, I was kept in a solitary cell.

MR MEY: And they visited you in the cell, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they came to me in the cell.

MR MEY: And who did the talking?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Peens was talking, I am saying Peens was saying that they were going to kill me in case I mentioned anything about the Boipatong incident.

MR MEY: Was he the only one who spoke to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Chaka also spoke, Peens was not alone, he was in the company of Chaka.

MR MEY: What did Chaka say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was reiterating what Peens was saying.

MR MEY: Was that all that had happened there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  That is how they threatened me.

MR MEY: In what car did they come to the Police station in Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I was incarcerated.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean when he was held, when he was being held in solitary confinement, do you seriously expect him to tell you what car they came in?

MR MEY: Mr Chairperson, he indicated previously in his evidence that they arrived there with a Sierra vehicle, that was his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is that previously you told us that they came to Vereeniging Police station in a Sierra?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, I did not say that.  I said they came to me when I was arrested, I did not know what vehicle they were using.

MR MEY: I put it to you that you have testified that they came in a Sierra vehicle.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was arrested, I could not have seen the vehicle they were using.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you could not see in what car they were travelling because you were in detention?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was in detention, I was in the Police cells, so I could not have seen the vehicle they were using.

MR MEY: I will leave it there, what I want to know from you is, at no previous occasion, except for the threat in Vereeniging cells, you were tortured by Chaka, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question sir.

MR MEY: Except for the threat after the Boipatong massacre at Vereeniging Police station by Chaka, you were never tortured by him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No,  was only tortured in Vereeniging and the people who tortured me were people from Houtkop.  The people who tortured me were the people who were in charge of my case in Sebokeng, yes, it Houtkop in Sebokeng.  The people who tortured me, was Chaka and that was the last time, here in Vereeniging.

MR MEY: Did Chaka torture you in Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying they did not torture me, they threatened me.

MR MEY: Did Rooikop at any stage, torture you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember him torturing me.

MR MEY: I just want to get back to one point, now during cross-examination you said that Rooikop was not present when you were arrested for the car theft, whilst previously you testified that he was present, but he did not torture you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he was present when I was arrested for robbery.  I said the person who was present when I was arrested for a vehicle, was Chaka.  Rooikop was only present when I was arrested for robbery and he did not torture me.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, you did testify that he was present with your arrest for the vehicle case.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no, I only spoke about Chaka pertaining to the motor vehicle offence.

MR MEY: When Rooikop was present during the robbery, he did not speak to you at all, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: This man did not testify that Rooikop was present during the robbery.

MR MEY: I am sorry Mr Chairperson, when you were arrested for the robbery case and Rooikop was present, did he speak to you at all or at any stage during that happenings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't recall.  The one person who was busy attending to me, was Peens.

MR MEY: How many times did Mr Mongezi visit you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know sir, I cannot recall.  He did come to pay me a visit.

MR MEY: A visit or was it more than once?

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't we covered that with Mr Berger?

MR MEY: Yes Your Worship, I am sorry Mr Chairperson, the reason why I am asking this is at that stage he was led by Mr Berger on how many occasions he was visited by Mr Mongezi.  I want to know from Mr Nosenga personally how many times he can recall Mr Mongezi visiting him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant to the question whether or not Peens was present at the, during the Boipatong massacre, I mean whether Rooikop or Chaka was present during the incident?

MR MEY: Yes Mr Chairperson, the reason for that being and I will come to it now, with reference to Exhibit R, pages 3 and 4 thereof, details of other incidents attached herewith, details attached herein.  I will get back to that now, I just want to know first, establish first on his version, how many times he was visited by Mongezi.  The reason for the details, it refers according to Mr Berger, to the statements and my clients have been reflect it in the statements, that is why I am asking this.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall how many times Mr Mongezi visited you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I think he came twice to visit me, but then Mr Berger said he came more than twice.

MR MEY: The only reason why you say that he came more than twice, was because you were led by Mr Berger on that fact, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand his answer it is that as far as he can recall, he came twice, but he cannot dispute the fact that it was four times.

MR MEY: Mr Nosenga, I want to refer you to Exhibit R, page 3, paragraph 9(a)(iv), the last part thereof.  It was covered by Mr Berger that the "incidents attached herewith, details of other incidents attached herewith" refers to the statement that was taken from you.  When you were cross-examined by Mr Lowies, you specifically said it refers to the incidents at Sebokeng and Small Farms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I am here for the Sebokeng as well as the Boipatong incidents.

MR MEY: I understand that, but the reason why I am asking this is why did you at first say that it is only referring to the Sebokeng, Everton and Small Farms incidents, which was on the same day, the 15th of June 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I also spoke about the Boipatong incident.