Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

MR SHANE: I will be able to now run the next three matters without any adjournments Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's the next?

MR SHANE: This applicant Mr Chairman is Jimmy Nkosinati Makhondo, and his testimony is on page 233 to 239.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he got an identification number?

MR SHANE: He does Mr Chairman, he knows it off by heart and I was going ...
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman before you is Jimmy Nkosinati Makhondo, if he can be sworn in, I can

CHAIRPERSON: What is his ID number?  Have you got it?

MR SHANE: He doesn't have an ID document.  He informs me he doesn't have an ID document.  He might know his ID number.

CHAIRPERSON: Advise him to get one otherwise he's not going to be able to vote.  Mr Makhondo, what language would you prefer to use?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: (sworn, states)

MR SHANE: Mr Makhondo, your ID number is 771106 9456 08 0 is that correct?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Yes, that's true.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I interrupt you sir?  How do you pronounce your surname?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Makhondo.

MR SHANE: Right, Mr Makhondo, you were an ordinary member of the ANC and also a member of the Self-Defence Unit in Extension 2 Tokoza.  Correct?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Yes, that's true.

MR SHANE: You are applying for amnesty for attempted murder, and for the possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: What is he applying for?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: That's true.

MR SHANE: Attempted murder, and the possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition.  The attempted murder happened on the 26th of November 1993, correct?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Nineteen ninety what?

MR SHANE: Three.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Yes, that's true.

MR SHANE: Is it also correct that for these offences, attempted murder and the unlawful possession of firearm and ammunition, you were arrested, charged and convicted, and sentenced to 12 years imprisonment?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Yes, that's true.

MR SHANE: In which Court did this happen?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Germiston Court.

MR SHANE: You have also appealed but your appeal has not been dealt with pending these proceedings.  Is that correct?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Very true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makhondo, tell me what happened on the 26th of November 1993.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: It was in the morning around half past five, or five o'clock in the morning.  I was given a command by my commander to patrol around and inspect the situation.

ADV GCABASHE: Just the name of your commander?  It will help now.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Patrick Thandixolo Ngcobo.  Yes, Patrick Thandixolo Ngcobo.

MR SHANE: Yes, can you carry on explaining.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: I was approaching through the passage and I saw policemen driving three private cars.  That marked the beginning of me investigating the way as to how they got there, and I had to take cover immediately because one of the cars passed.  The second car was a car that belonged around the location and I knew it.  The second car, that is I'm still referring to, parked by and there was one policeman and another ordinary man inside, black man.  And they alighted from the car and they told me to throw away my gun, and I answered them, and I said, I'm not going to do as they instruct, and he started shooting.  And I had to lie down on the ground and shooting back.
	After shooting twice one kombi approached behind, and there were six white men in that kombi, about six white men, and they started shooting as well.  And I fled.  And they tried to block me, and I went up the tree, I climbed up the tree, and shooting from the tree down I shot about six times towards them and they shot back.  I fell down, that was after I got shot on my leg.

MR SHANE: So you got shot by these, one of these white people.  Is that correct?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: The person I suspect shot me was the black one, the one who was talking in Zulu, speaking in Zulu.  He is the first man who told me to put down my weapon previously.

CHAIRPERSON: You clarified certain issues with him during consultation.  Something troubles me.

MR SHANE: Sorry Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to explain my concern.

MR SHANE: Before that Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR SHANE: I think you misunderstood me.  I was clarifying something with my next client Mr Chairman, not this individual, sir.  The person I'm calling, the person that I was clarifying something to was a person called Jimmy, I mean Goodman Nyadise Mbuli.  He's the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In the interests of your client I want to pose this question to him.  On his evidence thus far, what crime did he commit?

MR SHANE: With respect Mr Chairman I'm about to lead him.  The crime is attempted murder.  I'm, he's, with respect Mr Chairman his evidence, he's giving his evidence.  He's not completed.  It will emerge ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible) to cover it.

MR SHANE: Thank you sir, no it's coming sir.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get a bit of clarity on one aspect.  I'm sorry I just didn't take note.  Am I correct in saying that what happened was you were out on patrol, these three vehicles approached, essentially, you ducked for cover, they told you to give up your firearm, you refused to do so, and you shot and them, and shooting occurred.  Is that essentially what you've said to us so far?  After that a kombi with six white men came.  Is that essentially what you've said?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Yes, that's true.

ADV GCABASHE: I just didn't get what happened after the six white men in the kombi came.  If you can start from that point please.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: When I started shooting towards the second car, private car, the one that I said it was familiar to me because it was from the location or the residential area, I was not aware of the kombi that was emerging as well.  The only time I got aware of this kombi was when I started shooting.  The third car I did not see.  I only saw that car after I shot the familiar private car, and I started shooting towards that one now, the other car.

MR SHANE: When you shot into the vehicle with the six white policemen, why did you shoot?  What did you want to achieve by it?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Shooting of this vehicle, the motive of this, to kill all the white, all the boers who were in that kombi.  That was the only reason why, or the motivation why I did that.

MR SHANE: Now it's also correct ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: This kombi, was that part of the three vehicles, or was that a fourth vehicle?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: The three cars were together.

CHAIRPERSON: And the kombi, or was the kombi part of the three?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: There were three cars, plus the, including the kombi.

MR SHANE: You said you wanted to kill the boers in that kombi.  Was your life actually in danger at the time?  In other words, you were not really defending your life when you did that.  You just wanted to kill these whites because they were the enemy.  Is that true?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: The reason why I started shooting was to defend myself, because the second car I'm referring to, they had already pointed a gun towards me.

MR SHANE: After you got shot, who are the people that took you to hospital?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: I was ferried by the same police to the hospital.  In fact they pulled me down.  I think I went up to the hospital about eight or nine at Greywater.

MR SHANE: Do you agree that it wasn't the intention of the police to kill you, because if they wanted to kill you they would have anyway?