Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to elaborate on your answers.  I think I'm reasonably intelligent enough to be able to understand when you give me very pointed answers to a very simple question I've posed to you.  Was Mr Dlamini lying when he said the eyes were not thrown away, the eyes were left beside the body of the deceased, was he lying or not?  Was he telling us the truth, or was he not telling us the truth?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: That is a mistake, there is nothing like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you also recall that the testimony he gave was that, to a question which was put to him, what happened to the body of the deceased, his response was that he did not know, it was left in the position it was after he had been instructed to untie him from the wires that had been tied around his body onto the pole, that he had fallen on to the ground and that he was left in that position by the whole group.  You recall him giving that evidence?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I do remember that and there is also nothing like that.  I want to tell this Committee that even if you can refer to the court records as to what position was the deceased in when he was found, whether he was inside the grave or outside the grave, you will get the full proof that this person was exhumed.  I wonder if it's possible for this dead person to dig up a hole and get inside and bury himself.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to elaborate, I just want you to assist me in trying to relate your evidence to the evidence given by an applicant who is applying for amnesty and who has been made to understand that the cardinal requirement for being granted amnesty is that one must disclose the truth, at least the truth as he understands it.  Now you also testified that you all left the scene after the deceased had been forced to fall from the pole and he fell down onto the ground, that you left the scene.  That definitely he followed, he was just in front of you and you followed immediately from behind and that nobody was left behind, that you all left after the deceased had been killed.  You recall him giving us that evidence?  You recall at least his testimony to that effect?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I remember very well hearing him saying that.  There is a point that I want you to understand.  Just give me a permission to go back to that.  If he says as a person who had a firearm and I had a spear, how could it be possible for me to follow a person with a firearm, instead of this person with the firearm should follow me so that if something happens from the back, he would use this firearm and defend.  If that was the case, even from the beginning I wouldn't go and wake him up from his place and tell him that here's a person who's coming to attack me.  I was just going to take - I would have taken my spear and go straight to that person, instead of alerting him.  I just want you to take a closer look at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's why we are asking, we are putting these contradictions to you so that you yourself can give clarity, if you can, to that.  Now you also recall him giving evidence that you only stabbed the deceased three times on his chest?  No, I just want a comment.  Do you recall him giving that evidence?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And your evidence is that you stabbed the deceased 4 times and not 3 times?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I remember that testimony when he said that I stabbed the deceased 3 times only but the person who was handling the spear, the person who was stabbing the deceased, I stabbed him about 4 times.  I cannot lie to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And you are very sure of the fact that when the deceased was buried in that shallow grave, all of you were present including Mr Dlamini?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, all of us were present, the 5 of us.

CHAIRPERSON: And that if he seeks to suggest to this Committee that he did not witness any burial given to the deceased, he is misleading us?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he is saying something that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: How long did these children stay with you at that camp?  Was it for only a month, or was it for a year?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Are you referring - are you talking about the period after the death, the killing?

ADV DE JAGER: No, before the death, before the death.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am a bit confused whether you are talking about the period before or after.

ADV DE JAGER: Before you killed this man, before you took out his eyes, that person, how long had the two children been staying with you in the camp?  Was it for a month or a year, or two years?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I found them there.

ADV DE JAGER: And you arrived at that camp in 1991?  Is that correct?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, they were there when I arrived there, they were staying there with them.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, do you have any re-examination emanating from the questions put by Ms Mtanga and Members of the Committee?

MR PANDAY: No Madam Chair.
NO-RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sinangwenye, you are excused.  You may step down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, are you ready to address us?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I would propose that we hear your legal address as well as Ms Mtanga's before we adjourn for lunch.  We are hard-pressed to proceed with a matter which we had hoped we would commence with before 12 o'clock today.  We would therefore be grateful if you could accommodate us by immediately proceeding with your address, we are all ears.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.