Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I was not personally involved, but I was involved at a political level, being the Chairperson of the ANC, if you go to areas and people talk and they tell.  So in a political sense, one motivates that people should do something about people who show no discipline in involving in matters like these, but it was an operational matter as I did receive reports, that those people who were directly involved, they were disarmed.

MR WILLS: Now, you have indicated just for detail, you have indicated in Section 10(a) of your statement of your amnesty application, what your political objective was.  Can you just elaborate on that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, the point I was making there was that at all material times where I was involved, one was acting with a political motive, detected by the circumstances of the time.
	Rising to the occasion of our people who were constantly harassed by the police and many of whom were in fact killed during that time.  There are many instances where one would go to areas like Umlazi, you will find people being killed, Umkababa, Port Shepstone.  In fact around 1992 there was a time where we were burying comrades on a weekly basis.
	It was the life that we were leading in the province.  But despite all those difficulties, we always acted within the authority and the discipline of the ANC.

MR WILLS: You also say on page 5 of the statement that you attach, Appendix 1 to your affidavit, that you accepted the role of self defence without (indistinct), knowing it was a necessity of the times.
	Would you like to elaborate further on that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, the point we are making there is that this Self Defence Units in fact was imposed on us, by the inability of the Security Forces that were supposed to protect our people.
	Instead of protecting our people, they were the ones that were guilty of atrocities against our people.  As a result we had no choice, but to make sure that we assist our people in defending themselves.
	I believe that it is a right of anybody in South Africa to defend himself or herself when attacked.  That is the background against which we operated as the ANC.

MR WILLS: You also indicate in your supporting documentation, that the - and I am referring to paragraph 21 on page 7 - on page 15 of the bundle for the benefit of the Chairperson, that after the elections, MK was officially disbanded and what happened in relation to the SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, also they were disbanded in as much as I have indicated, most of those weapons were recovered, so there was no longer any necessity for the continued existence of Self Defence Units, because now we had a united South African National Defence Force that was more sympathetic to the new cause of our government of 1994.

MR WILLS: Essentially the period that you are referring to the Amnesty Committee, is the period from 1992 up until the point of the election in 1994?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Just before we finalise, what was your dealings with Dr Phillips in regard to the SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, as he will be able to testify before this Commission, he also played a communication role, as I now understand but he was working closely with the person in charge here, and the people at Headquarters.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Ms Hewitt, do you have any questions to ask Mr Radebe?

MR HEWITT: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Radebe, I want to go to page 4 of your application and paragraph 10(a), which my learned friend, Mr Wills, referred you to not so long ago where you state all the operations detailed above, were carried out in accordance with the aims and objectives of the African National Congress.
	As a member of Umkhonto weSizwe , my objective was the furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid State with the intention of overthrowing the State and replacing it with a democratic one.
	Was that the objective in arming the SDU's, the Self Defence Units?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Not at all.  What I am referring to here is the pre-1990 period in particular, with my case under the Internal Security Act.  This refers specifically to the pre-1990 period.

MR HEWITT: Was there any furtherance of an armed struggle during the period that you are referring to?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: After, post-1990?

MR HEWITT: Yes?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, you will remember that as the ANC, we took a political decision to suspend armed actions.  In so far as your question is concerned, that does not apply.

MR HEWITT: That objective of furthering an armed struggle, played no role whatsoever with the SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: And the weaponry was supplied to them for what purpose?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: For self defence purposes.

MR HEWITT: At no stage was such weaponry intended for any offensive purpose, attack on existing structures or the regime that you were still obviously antagonistic towards?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, we always emphasised that the Self Defence Units, have always to pursue or adopt a defensive posture.

MR HEWITT: Now, what was the date when that change in approach came about?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As long as Self Defence Units were decided upon by the ANC.

MR HEWITT: All right, when did the furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid State, with a view of overthrowing it, when was that policy no longer the policy?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It was no longer a policy when the ANC adopted a position of suspending armed actions.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but it is the date I am specifically interested in?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I wouldn't recall the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you know the year more or less Mr Radebe?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It should have been, I think it was a Pretoria Minute, 1990, somewhere there.

MR HEWITT: Was that no longer the intention in 1992?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Sorry, I don't know whether we are on the same wavelength here.
	By 1992, had that policy of furthering the armed struggle against the apartheid State with a view to overthrowing it, had that stopped by 1992 and was it simply a Self Defence Protection policy?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I think I have answered your question, I did say that our policy on armed struggle was pursued by the ANC and MK until the ANC around 1990, suspended armed action in accordance, I believe, with the Pretoria Minute.
	After that, we never pursued an armed struggle in South Africa.

MR HEWITT: All right, if we then revert to periods like 1992, 1993 and 1994, we are not dealing with armed struggle any more as ANC policy.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: All right, I just want to try and understand where Mr Sithole fits into this whole picture.
	You yourself, I gather from the tenner of your evidence Mr Radebe, that you yourself, did not arrange the importation into the country of weaponry?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.  I did not.

MR HEWITT: You were stationed in relation to this collection of weaponry for distribution to the SDU's, you would have been stationed in the Southern Natal, Durban area the whole time?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: You yourself, wouldn't go say to the Swaziland border or the Mozambique border, on the assumption that this is where these firearms came from?  You yourself wouldn't actually be involved?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I told you that the instance where I was involved, was the delivery of weapons that were in a car, that was dropped at the Workshop and as far as I know, Workshop has not moved away from Durban.

MR HEWITT: I am just trying to see how well travelled you were during that period, that is all.
	So you basically stayed in the Durban area?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.