Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: My lawyer told me.

CHAIRPERSON: And in so far as you are concerned, that truth would have been that because you were ill in bed, you didn't go to Boipatong, you weren't part of the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not go to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: And of course, that there was a caucus meeting with Majola?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did attend that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the problem you had in telling the truth in your application?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The problem that I had was that I did not have enough information and knowledge about the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Lack of full knowledge about the TRC, how does that prevent you from telling the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not know what the procedure was, and I decided that I would have to wait and see how the process went in the TRC and I realised that I would have to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that that at some point, you understood how the process works, but what I want to find out from you is, lack of full knowledge of how the TRC functions, how does that prevent you from telling the truth?  Do you understand the question?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was afraid to tell the truth when I made that application.  I was afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: You were afraid to tell your legal representative the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were afraid to tell the TRC the truth?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was afraid then, but I have told the truth here.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.  Why were you afraid, what were you afraid of?  Why were you afraid of telling your legal representative the truth, which your legal representative can then convey to the TRC?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was afraid and hoped that my Attorney would pass on whatever information that I had given him, until such time that I saw for myself what the process was.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the truth of the matter that you didn't trust the TRC?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Because of that lack of knowledge, yes, I did not trust the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Under cross-examination certain discrepancies were pointed out to you between your statement and your evidence and in one occasion you said that there was a mistake with the interpretation.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that the person who interpreted what you had said, made a mistake?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that Interpreter must have made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not that it was part of telling the untruth to your Attorney because you didn't trust the TRC?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 18th of June 1992 I think it is, you were well enough to go and get stock for your shop?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I went.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you want this Committee to grant you amnesty?  What is it that you did wrong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I seek amnesty for the reason that I was charged and convicted.  I know that I was wrong to hold that caucus and in fact decide and propagate that people should be killed and attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a statement which was put to you under cross-examination I think it was, dealing with your, the reason why you did not go to Boipatong.  The reason I think that appears in that statement is that you were, you did not know that there was going to be an attack in Boipatong, I think that is the effect of what you said, and in any event, you were ill in bed.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the real reason why you didn't go to Boipatong?  Is it because you were ill in bed, or is it because you didn't know that there was an attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was sick on the 17th and therefore could not go to Boipatong.  Had I not been sick, I would have accompanied this contingent to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: As you were laying down there on the 17th, if your roommate had come to you and said Buthelezi, the day has arrived, we are now on our way to Boipatong, would you have gone to Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: They did not come, but I would have indicated that I am sick and perhaps suggest that they wait.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Mr Strydom, anything arising?

MR STRYDOM: One question Chairperson.  If you were not sick that day, after you heard the alarm, would you have gone to the stadium?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would.

MR STRYDOM: And then would you have joined the people to Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

MR MAPOMA: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, you spent the day of the 17th sitting in the yard, did you not?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You were not in bed on the 17th, during the day?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was in bed, but I would wake up and walk around, I would walk around in the yard.

MR BERGER: Who were the ANC leaders in Boipatong that you tried to get hold of, but couldn't?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The ones that I heard about was a Mr Tsotso who was the leader of the ANC at Boipatong, as well as Mr Mgebe.  I only heard about them, I had not met them.

MR BERGER: So, it was well known in the hostel that Mr Ernest Tsotso was a prominent leader of the ANC in Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: When I asked you to list all the structures of the IFP in the hostel, you did not mention the AmaButho, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I take it therefore that the AmaButho were not considered an IFP structure within the hostel, am I correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: AmaButho is a group of people assigned to go out and carry out a certain task.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, is it correct to say that the AmaButho were not considered to be an IFP structure in the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: When I asked you to mention all the leaders of the IFP in the hostel, you did not mention Mr Mkhize, am I correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct, because he was not part of the whole structure.  He was just an Induna on his own with others.

MR BERGER: So therefore it would be correct to say that Mr Mkhize was not an IFP leader in the hostel, correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, he was just an Induna of everybody who resided at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR MALINDI: Just one question Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, some of your applicants if I remember their evidence well, gave evidence that when they left the hostel, they were chanting slogans and singing and that they did the same on their way back from Boipatong.
	If this is how they conducted themselves, your room being very close to the main gate, you would have heard them leave and you would have heard them come back, is that not so?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I must object to that question.  There was not evidence to my recollection, I think that is - it comes out of the statement of Mr Matanzima Nosenga.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, Mr Khanyile said so in his evidence.  I have checked my notes to make sure earlier.

MR STRYDOM: I stand to be corrected, I withdraw my objection.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  My question was that if the attackers had conducted themselves in that manner when they left the hostel and when they came back, you would have heard them as your room was very close to the main gate?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.