Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

CHAIRPERSON: You know I don't think you can take it very much further.  Obviously he wasn't present in Mkhize's house.  Somebody - he says somebody reports to Djamile that meetings are held in Mkhize's house and he is reporting what he has heard somebody else say so I don't know whether he's in a position to admit or deny whether people were in Mkhize's house or not.  If he were to say that I was there and I saw meetings were being held then it's another matter but I think I understand his evidence to mean that Djamile was receiving information from somebody, whether it's an elderly woman working at the house or not, he was receiving information from somebody that meetings were held there and that's how he is relating that to us.

MR DIAZ: I accept that Mr Chairman, thank you.  I don't think that point could be taken any further.  If I may be allowed the indulgence to revert to the cassettes as I had omitted to deal with one aspect in that regard?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR DIAZ: Thank you.
	Mr Hlope, if I understand my instructions correctly, at some stage you had admitted and it would appear as though this is contained in the two cassettes we talked about earlier that you admitted to having shot Mr Mkhize by using your firearm, having shot him in the cheek when a tooth of his came off and fell on the seat of his car, do you remember making that admission?

MR HLOPE: I had explained before that I cannot expatriate on the cassettes.  I do admit my voice was in there but as to what had happened before then Ndjali Djali can explain to the Commission as to what happened.  You've asked me this question many times now and I've explained it already.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that your voice was on that cassette, the question that is put to you was that you voice was recorded as saying that you were directly involved in shooting Mr Mkhize.  Now you admit that your voice was on that cassette and we're trying to get an explanation as to how it is that that cassette says what is being put to you.  Or is your answer, that my voice was on the cassette but I don't know what I said, is that the answer?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is what I want to say.  That my voice is there but I don't know how it came about that it was taped.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not a question of you don't know how it came about only, your voice was on that cassette and you do not recall saying or admitting on that cassette that you killed Mr Mkhize.  That is what it is being sought to put to you, you see?

MR DIAZ: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is correct.  I do not remember saying all those things, I do not know as to when they took place or the taping took place so I cannot explain with regard to the cassettes but I do admit that was my voice there.  I could not even hear what I was saying in that cassette when I listened to it thereafter.  They played the cassette at the Supreme Court.

MR DIAZ: Mr Hlope, Mrs Mkhize will testify and say that she was surprised that you had knowledge of the bullet wound to the face of Mr Mkhize and the fact that a tooth of his had flung out and fallen in the car, recorded by your cassettes well before your trial began.  If you did not kill Mr Mkhize, how could you possible have known of this to have caused it to have been recorded.

MR HLOPE: As I've already explained that everything that is contained in the cassettes, I have no knowledge thereof even that portion with regard to the shooting and the teeth falling off or the tooth falling off, I had absolutely no knowledge thereof and I still stand firm that I did not kill Mr Mkhize.

MR DIAZ: Mr Hlope, I just want to put it to you finally in that regard that your entire version about that cassette is a very convenient one.  Obviously you're distancing yourself from it for obvious reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) not a question that is a technical ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: Sorry that is true.  I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I'm just putting it to him.
	Mr Hlope, I want to take you to paragraph 22 of your affidavit.  I see you do not have a copy there before you.  In it you say - do you have a copy before you?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do.

MR DIAZ: You would see from paragraph 22 that you say
"my sister Lindiwe Hlope reported to us that Mkhize was murdered and she passed the message to Djamile's wife".

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do know that.

MR DIAZ: Than you follow by saying
	"Mrs Mkhize came to report the death of her husband at Djamile's house".

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is true.

MR DIAZ: Is the reference to Mrs Mkhize there a reference to the late Mr Mkhize's wife, Mrs Mkhize who is seated here now?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is the same person.

MR DIAZ: Are you saying that she called at Djamile's house to report this?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.

MR DIAZ: Why would she have done that?

MR HLOPE: What I can say is, it's possible that maybe she was reporting it because Mr Mkhize and Djamile were sort of related to Mr Djamile's wife.  They even said it at the Court of Law that they were taken in Djamile's Kombi's during the funeral because they're distantly related.

MR DIAZ: Well my instructions are that Mrs Mkhize denies having ever called to Mr Djamile's house, says that nowhere was she related to Mr Djamile, owed no allegiance to Djamile and shortly after her husband's death was mourning so much that she could not possibly have made that trip.

MR HLOPE: That is not true.  Mrs Mkhize appeared - according to the testimony that was rendered in court, they had some relations and Mr Djamile had sold a stand, a vacant stand to Mrs Mkhize and it is very apparent that Mrs Mkhize is not telling the truth here.  She's behaving as if there was absolutely no relationship between her and Mr Djamile but they had sold each other a vacant stand.  I feel very bad that Mrs Mkhize is not prepared to come forth with the truth.

MR DIAZ: Okay Mr - sorry, Mr Hlope, I want to deal now with the death of Kushana Kuzwayo.  I know that you talked about this, as you said purely to show your truthfulness and to be open about everything you did and that you're not applying for amnesty in that regard.  Very briefly, I have a client here who's instructed me that you're not being truthful about your role that you played in the death of Kushana Kuzwayo.

MR HLOPE: I deny that.  What is contained in my affidavit is true and whatever I've said in there is what happened.  All that I did, I did because I was taking orders from Mr Djamile and I have no intention of misleading the Commission.
	If there is anybody with anything to the contrary, he or she can come forth and say it.  I have taken an oath - this is a sworn statement and I'm fully aware thereof, therefore there is no reason for me to come and sit here and lie whilst I'm applying for amnesty.

MR DIAZ: Well Mr Hlope, the late Mr Kuzwayo's son is here and he will say that paragraph 32 of your affidavit that we've dealt with earlier is an untruth to the extent that you did participate in the actual killing of Kuzwayo, you had travelled in the car to Kuzwayo's house and you were present in the vicinity of his house at the time he came to be shot fatally.

MR HLOPE: It's not clear to me what you are saying.  Are you referring to Kushana Kuzwayo or Mr Kuzwayo, could you please explain as to which Kuzwayo you are referring to now

MR DIAZ: I have said to you earlier that we are dealing with Kushana Kuzwayo and if you look at paragraph 32 of your affidavit which deals with other incidents, you deal there with Kushana Kuzwayo in particular.

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do understand that.

MR DIAZ: Now will you answer that question relating to your involvement?   Do you want me to repeat that?

MR HLOPE: What are you saying, are you saying was I not at Mr Kushana's place or what are you saying?

MR DIAZ: Will you look at paragraph 32 of your affidavit?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do see that.