Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Can I just ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In other words in another way, because of that instruction - if the instruction came from the movement, the Volksfront or the AWB not to injure and you did injure, then the AWB or Volksfront couldn't be seen to be held liable for such injury or death, only you and the persons who placed the bomb?  That is what he is asking.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I don't know, I received my instruction directly from Mr Labuschagne.  He would probably would have had to take responsibility for it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what rank did you hold in the AWB?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I didn't have any rank.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You were present when the bomb was placed in Viljoenskroon, is that correct?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct.

MR TAKA: And you were also present when the bomb was placed in Wesselsbron?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct.

MR TAKA: Now in both instances you decided where the bomb is going to be placed and how it is going to be placed, is that correct?  That was your own decision?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, in Wesselsbron we drove with the vehicle and just left it in the street and we just continued.  In Viljoenskroon we stopped alongside the road, we got off, we placed it and we went back to the vehicle.  In Viljoenskroon I would say it was maybe my decision to put it down when we arrived at the houses, but in Wesselsbron we just stopped, it was not my decision.

MR TAKA: So in Wesselsbron you did not yourself place the bomb where it exploded?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, I was in the vehicle, all three of us. Myself, Labuschagne and Mr van der Watt were in the vehicle.  I can't remember who placed the bomb on the ground and then we drove on.

MR TAKA: Now when you placed the bomb in Viljoenskroon, did you know that the owner of the shack where you placed the bomb was not even an ANC supporter, he was a policeman and still is a policeman?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, I carried no knowledge of who lived there in any of those shacks around there.

MR TAKA: But I thought that your target was supporters of the ANC and the Nationalist Party Government?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: The instruction I received was just to go and place the bomb and to go back.

MR TAKA: And in Wesselsbron six house were affected by the explosion and the inhabitants of those houses, which is in one of the poorer areas of Wesselsbron, say that they did not belong to any political party. let alone the African National Congress at the time of the explosion of this bomb.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I'm very sorry for those people but it was not aimed at specific people the way I understood it, it was only about creating chaos and to gain propaganda to strengthen the hands of the leaders, that was all.  It was never aimed at any specific individuals, it doesn't matter which organisation they belonged to.  It was only in order to gain publicity.

MR TAKA: My instructions also are that that explosion in Wesselsbron equally destroyed a four-roomed house belonging to a widow who since then has been unable to build another house and is living in a shack as a result, with six minor children.  Your comment?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I am very sorry for her.  This is difficult.  When we started with the war if I can call it that, we did not always think that there would be such horrible consequences and we did not know we're going to feel the way we feel today, the pain.

MR TAKA: Would you concede today that in your operations more often than not you may have exceeded the mandate of your organisation or organisations or exceeded the instructions that were given to you?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I do not understand the question very well.

MR TAKA: Would you concede today that it could have happened that you in the execution of your mandate maybe went too far?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I did as I received the instructions to do it.  Is that the answer you are looking for?  Let me put it this way, if today I had to receive similar instructions I would not follow them, I wouldn't even listen to them.

MR TAKA: Mr Botes, you are from Bultfontein, the district Bultfontein?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR TAKA: Have you made any attempts to show your genuine remorse by trying to meet some of the victims of your deadly acts?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, as far as I knew there were no severe injuries.  I've known about the one of Mr Labuschagne in the paper.  It said that it was a very light injury to the knee.

MR TAKA: You are making an application for amnesty, is it out of genuine remorse or is it perhaps an attempt to avoid the consequences of your actions?

CHAIRPERSON: I know it's not a requirement - the question of remorse is not a requirement.  I don't know if you don't want your client to answer it.  I don't have a problem with the question itself, although the showing of remorse is not a criteria for the granting or refusal of amnesty.

MR TAKA: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Just for the sake of clarity, Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.
	Mr Botes, you were a member of which organisations when you started this campaign?  Were you still a member of the AWB and the Volksfront then?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Yes.  I did not give a written resignation but I was no longer paying membership fees and as far as I was concerned I was not a member of the AWB.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the Volksfront?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Yes, I was a member.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Just on that, just to try to erase my own ignorance.  Could individuals belong to the Volksfront or was it just a body of organisations?

MR LOUBSCHER: No, individuals could belong to it as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was organisations and their members or if an individual didn't belong to any other organisation he could as Piet Pompies go and join?

MR LOUBSCHER: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that Mr Labuschagne terminated his membership with the AWB during January 1994?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Yes, I did learn that, I was aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that occurred, did you continue in the campaign still under the direction of Mr Labuschagne?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Yes, I joined together - I joined the Volksfront together with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make your own explosives?  Your bombs, did you make them yourself, you, Mr van der Watt and Mr Labuschagne or were you supplied with the bombs from some other source?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: We made it ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Taka?

MR TAKA: Nothing, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment?  Can we take it for say just an half an hour or so, would that be convenient or as soon thereafter as possible and start at quarter to two again?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, that would be convenient.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll now adjourn for lunch and we'll start at a quarter to two or shortly thereafter, as soon as we're ready.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS