Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

ADV MEMANI: Amongst the people that you conveyed to plan, did you see that some of them were injured.

MR KOPI: No Sir, I didn't see anything because when you put somebody at Glen Police Station before that person goes to Glen Police Station that person is asked as to whether does he have complaints or not.  Then from there if the he has complaints they will open a docket.

ADV MEMANI: And my instructions are that you and Motsamai actually told the police at length not to register any complaints.

MR KOPI: Motsamai is talking his own version, I would not agree to that.  Why did not the person who has assaulted that person didn't take him to Glen Police Station?

ADV MEMANI: But that's nonsensical Mr Kopi with due respect.  Now Mr Kopi, the people who were beaten up were, and injured, testified that they were beaten up and that they were conveyed to the police station Glen and no complaints were registered.

MR KOPI: Mr Memani, I said to you that, I still repeat, that there was no person who was assaulted in my presence.

ADV MEMANI: And you did not see that the people that you conveyed to Glen were injured?

MR KOPI: No they were fine, I did not see any person assaulted.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Kopi, did you not hear, you say that you did not hear, what did you not hear?

MR KOPI: I just wanted to cough out I did not want to say anything.

ADV MEMANI: And did you hear after the 6th that the people that were interrogated on the 6th April were beaten up?

MR KOPI: No person told me that there were people who have been assaulted.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Kopi, when you told us when you were speaking about Violent Street, that the person who named it Violent Street was a member of the public.
	Or let me rephrase that, you told us that the name of the person, the name Violent Street, came as a result of an enquiry that was made by a member of the public who was in the offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he told us there was a sticker up there reading "Violent Street" and that a person was brought up from the fourth floor to the fifth floor who saw this sticker and then asked: "Is this Violent Street, is that not his evidence?

ADV MEMANI: It's the same question put differently, Chairperson.  Now, Mr Kopi, were there toilets on the first floor?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean that questions, toilets on the first floor?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, Chairperson.
	Were there toilets on the first floor.

MR KOPI: You are not talking about the first floor, you are not talking about the fifth floor.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he's talking about the first floor, he said specifically.  Who occupied the first floor?

MR KOPI: From first floor to third floor is DK.

CHAIRPERSON: Is who?  Who occupies the first to the first to the third floor?

MR KOPI: District Commander's office.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if he had toilets on the first floor?

MR KOPI: From first floor to fifth floor there were toilets.

ADV MEMANI: You see I'm asking you this question because in your evidence you said that this person was being interrogated on the fourth floor and wanted to go to the toilet on the fifth floor.

CHAIRPERSON: What has that got to do with toilets on the first floor?

ADV MEMANI: Well, Chairperson, you know that when sometimes ...[indistinct] the question by asking a person questions which might not be directly in point.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't know, you have been doing that for several hours now and I don't see the point of it and as I pointed out to you, you have a limited right of cross-examination.  Bear that in mind, Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: We haven't sat for an hour this morning, Chairperson.
	Now, Mr Kopi, I'm putting it to you that it was, what you told us yesterday was a lie.

MR KOPI: I tell you what I told you yesterday is the truth.

ADV MEMANI: Why would a person have chosen to go to the fifth floor if there were toilets on the fourth floor?

MR KOPI: There are toilets on the fourth floor.  He just wanted to stretch his legs.  Then you take him from the fourth floor to the fifth floor so that he would be able to stretch his legs.

UNKNOWN: Mr Memani, you said that we hadn't sat for an hour yet, but I would have thought that a witness like him, it would not have been impossible to dispose of him in fact in much less than an hour, twenty minutes, fifteen minutes but you have got your own way of cross-examination anyway.
	I want to put questions to you Mr Kopi, you said, did I hear you correctly, you said something like you did take down some notes and left them when you left to go and see an informer.

MR KOPI: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: What notes were they?

MR KOPI: I took the particulars of the person I was interrogating, all his particulars, where he attend his school.   I'd say he was in a school at Sungawelo, then I would write those notes to prepare for the person who was going to do the interrogation of saying here is the name, don't struggle.

UNKNOWN: Yourself, personally, you did not seek any information from any one of those people.

MR KOPI: Yes I wanted some information from them, that is when I said to him you left here, where were you going, then he said we're going to Lesotho then I said to that person: "What were you going to do"?  Then at the time I received a telephone message saying your informer wants to speak to you.  Then I left those notes, I left them with a person I was with in that office.  Then I'm going to hear the message that person from the phone.  Then I learnt that it with my informer then I, that's when I left.

UNKNOWN: You said you had interrogated two to three people. Would I be correct to assume that before you moved onto the next one you had finished with the first one?

MR KOPI: Yes I've already finished with the first one, then he said we're going to Lesotho then when I said what were you going to do then he kept or she kept quiet.

UNKNOWN: She didn't give you the information that you wanted.

MR KOPI: Yes she didn't give me the information I wanted because I said I'm going to waste time then I went to fetch another one.  I'm not sure as whether it's one person or two persons or three persons.

UNKNOWN: You were not satisfied with their answers?

MR KOPI: Yes I was not satisfied with their answers then I said to myself I'm going to waste time if I continue with that interrogation.

UNKNOWN: And, well at that point I must mention to you that some of the complainants said they were assaulted because information was sought from them which apparently they did not want to depart, to impart.

MR KOPI: I will not dispute what he's saying when they say they were not assaulted, they could have been assaulted in my absence.

UNKNOWN: I will not put that to you because I am not very confident of my recollection as to whether anyone of them said you assaulted them.  I'll leave it at that point but now you'll move onto the next one, to interrogate her, am I right.  Because you feel the first one was wasting your time because she was not answering the questions or giving you the information you wanted?

MR KOPI: Yes I did interrogate another one, then he said he doesn't want to continue.

ADV MEMANI: When you speak of interrogation, I must ask you for clarification.  Were you interpreting or were you interrogating?

MR KOPI: We worked as interpreter as I was with this person we would interrogate the person, all of us, but at the same time I would be the one would be interpreting only.

ADV MEMANI: And the second person that you interrogated, did you get the information that you wanted from her?

MR KOPI: I remember that maybe the third one is  the one when - whilst I was busy with her the telephone message arrived then I was called to respond to the phone, then I left everything in that office then I left and then Du Plooy said take the car quickly and go and see your informer.

UNKNOWN: Are you talking about the third person?

MR KOPI: Yes I speak of the third person, I remember well, it's the third person.