Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, any other, or the only contact that I had with him was when I was detained under Section 29, and the whole Terrorist Section, I was the only person detained.  At a certain stage during my detention, they confronted me with Donald Aitchison.  It was Col Jumbo Smit who confronted me.  He came in with the Investigating Officers and Jaap Joubert from the Detective Branch in South Africa, and the investigating team was involved with my interrogation.
	They came into my cell and they pushed him into my cell.  I cannot recall how long I was detained by then.  I looked at him and I said "no", then he mentioned my name.  I think he said Andrew or something.  I then pretended not to know him, but it was not very convincing.  They locked him up in the cell with me for about two hours, but I thought maybe the cell was a bit rigged, they can, they took me out for interrogation, they can then place a bug in the cell.  The more he started talking to me, the more I denied him, and then I started swearing and then he said "yes, he knew they were taping the conversation".  I confronted him there, and I think he was also detained there while they did this investigation.
	All the cells are soundproof, so you have no contact with anybody else.  I then saw him again after he returned back to South-West Africa Namibia, I was released after three and a half months.  When he was released from South West Africa, from prison, he came back to his girlfriend in Bedfordview and when I found out that he was released under Section 29, I did another thing that I shouldn't.  I felt sorry for him and I did not want to leave him alone.  I went to go and see him, or I went to see his girlfriend, and I assisted her financially.
	I encouraged her and we built up some trust between us.  I spoke to her over the phone, I went to visit her at the Bedford Centre, I took a girlfriend with me.  I gave her some money and found out what her complaints were, and I tried to do what I could for them in the system.  At a later stage he was released and then he contacted me on the number that I gave her.  I went to see him also at the Bedford Centre where we drank a cup of coffee.  We had a discussion, I asked him about the Lubowski murder and he told me, he did not want to admit to me that he murdered Lubowski, but he described others to me.  I asked him for descriptions, I wanted him to ID the people who were using us and I told him "we were both locked up" and the people whom he described to me, were not anybody that I could really place or that I knew or who had contact with him and sent him around.
	We spoke about money that was left in a hotel room for him, in a suitcase, under a bed.  More or less the same as Chaps Maree said, it was all James Bond stories.  I got the impression that people contacted him in South-West Africa and gave him money, but the description that he gave me, did not fit in with anybody that I knew.

MR COETZEE: There were also evidence concerning a book at a hotel, that was delivered.  Do you know anything about the checking in of Aitchison in some hotel?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Are you now referring to the Royal Ascot Hotel?

MR COETZEE: Yes, I am referring to that.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, Honourable Chairperson.  What happened was, while Mr Aitchison was detained, Mr Calla Botha came to me, we had regular contact with each other, we knew we were both in contact with him, and there were problems.  He  told me that the people in his region or cell, are very worried or concerned about the meeting that took place in the Royal Ascot Hotel and that he was tasked to steal the registry.  I told him that I would assist him.
	We then left.  It was not very easy, although if you want to do it the hard line way, you could go in with a weapon, but the foyer of the hotel was very busy, there were various staff members, it is quite a high counter and behind the counter, there is a very thick book.  It was covered in leather, it was the only book there, and in my work as a Detective, I visited a lot of hotels, as a Narcotics Detective.  I knew documentation like this, and I knew it looked like the register.  That was the  only thing that was laying there, and I had to move very quickly, because Mr Botha started complaining and tried to draw attention away from me.  
	While they were busy there, I grabbed the book and I walked out.  I met him outside.  We were quite satisfied with ourselves.  Once we were about two kilometres from there, I realised it was the table book, where they made reservations for tables for the restaurant.  We wanted to return and I realised there was only one way in which we could do it.  We had to burglar the hotel.  If things did not look right, we would have to do it as a stick up, and we have to take the cash as well.
	When we parked in front of the hotel, Mr Alex Kouvaris got out of a vehicle, it was a BMW, he was with a blond woman.  I knew he was a high profile person who owned a lot of night-clubs in Johannesburg, and I also knew that he had certain connections with Mr Burger.  I did not know what the connections were, however.  When I saw this, Calla told me that he is quite sure that Mr Burger targeted Mr Kouvaris to do the same thing, and we then withdrew.
	Then at a later stage he told me that he was told not to attempt this again.

MR COETZEE: What did you do with the book, did you just throw it away?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Botha took the book and I think  he handed it over to his co-ordinator or manager, and they all laughed about it, and then threw it away.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, in essence this is your involvement in the CCB activities internally.  Are there any other incidents in which you were involved in?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Not that I can really think of off the cuff.  While I was busy with the McQuillan project, and I testified concerning Klaas de Jonge, there is just one aspect that I would like to highlight there.
	I was told by Frans(sic) Luitingh on a certain request, that Mr Klaas de Jonge was going to be eliminated through an explosive device, through a post-box that he visited on a regular basis.  The explosive device would be placed in the post-box.  It will be placed close to his vehicle, but this was the Australian contact which I referred to.  He would do it.  He was an explosives expert, and that is how he would be killed.
	Apart from that, I cannot think of anything else.

MR COETZEE: If we can then continue with certain foreign activities or projects.  You have mentioned certain aspects concerning Adv Lubowski.  Are there any other matters in which you were involved in abroad?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct Mr Chairperson.  I was involved abroad, not physically being abroad, apart from the South-West Africa excursion.   We acted abroad on information that I placed into the system of the CCB.

MR COETZEE: Can you just refer to cases in which you provided such information?