Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Vally you are the dominus litis. You have a programme, you have a way - I have noted the requested, it doesn't have to be now.  I think you go ahead and conduct this hearing in the manner in which you had intended to do.  For instance I am not going to allow any of this matter to stand down on the basis only that we shall have to go and get a copy of this.  I have noted the request for that to be read into the record.  I can't make a ruling now.  I haven't seen the report.  I don't recall it, but there is work that can be done and I think we must go ahead with it.
 Mr Vally are you listening?  Go ahead and lead evidence.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.  General Knobel I need to determine from you for which period were you Surgeon General?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally or Mr Chairman may I just ask the following question.  This is exactly the reason that I want that document read into the record because I give a full explanation in that document about my position and how I became involved in this project.  I would certainly, in answering some of the questions, would be referring to the contents of that document.  I want to know from you whether that is now in order or whether it should be read into the record first.  I will be quite happy to answer any question Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Knobel we have a problem about process, and what really distresses me is that with the subpoenas there was a page at least which outlines the procedures to be followed here.  Where documents are sought to be referred to those documents should have made available ahead of time.  You have been here, your lawyer has been here for a week.  You knew that you wanted to refer to certain documents.  Those documents should have been ready for redistribution before we take the evidence. Now we are placed in a position where you want to read into the record something we haven't had sight of.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Chairman, with respect, the TRC also wanted to make this document available to the press and they wrote to the Minister of Defence to ask his ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is not my point.  You are now wanting to put it in as evidence and I am saying if that is what you had wanted to do you should have made sure that those documents are available for us.  I am not in a position to rule that something must be read into the record in the nature of these sort of proceedings when neither the ministry's officials nor I, nor any of the members of the panel have had sight of the document.  I am not saying there is anything wrong with the document, but I know that if you are answering questions that have been put we hear the questions and we can see if they are going to be comprising any of the documents in relation to which there is an agreement.
 I can understand your point in saying, unfortunately I am now having to give a verbal reply to things that I have in my report.  That's unfortunately what has to happen in the circumstances.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Chairman, with respect, this document was in the possession of the TRC since January 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not before us General Knobel.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I understand that Mr Chairman, but in the discussions with the TRC in preparation for this hearing I made it clear to them that I was going to use this document.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't understand what I am trying to say to you, or you refuse to understand.
 You may have said a hundred and one things but the fact of the matter is that now at quarter past ten on Friday morning to want to read into the record something that is not before me, and I am saying there is a process in terms of which Mr Vally can begin to use the 15 minutes that are available before tea time profitably, and he is beginning to do so.  I now rule that you should answer the questions put to you.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I will do my best to do it as fully as possible Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.
 General Knobel my question was for which period were you Surgeon-General?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I was appointed as Surgeon-General of the South African Defence Force on the 1st of March 1988, and I remained in that position until the 30th of November 1997.

MR VALLY: Prior to you being appointed to Surgeon-General can you tell us what your position was in the Defence Force and for how long?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I was originally appointed in the Defence Force within the citizen force in 1971.  I served in the citizen force until the end of 1980.  During that period I served in various capacities but in the final years as a consultant to the Surgeon-General, at that time Lt Gen Nieuwoudt, in the same way as Dr Daan Goosen described yesterday.
 I then joined ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Just on that issue, I am so sorry, which period were you consultant to General Nieuwoudt?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I must just add to what I have just said, also to General Cockroft who was the predecessor of General Nieuwoudt.  In the period from the middle of the 1970's approximately Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: So from the 1970's to March 1988 you were consultant to the Surgeon-General ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No that is not what I said Mr Vally ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I am sorry.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I said as a citizen force officer I was a consultant to those two Surgeon-Generals until the end of 1980.

MR VALLY: Okay.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: In 1981 I joined the permanent force and I was then instructed to do the necessary training for two years to achieve the necessary military qualifications.  So in 1981 I did the staff course of the South African Army.  In 1982 I did the joint staff course of the Defence College.
 From the beginning of 1983 I was appointed as Chief of Medical Staff Operations, which meant that I had to deploy all capabilities within the South African Medical Service in support of the Defence Force, other security forces and the Department of Health and other State departments on behalf of the Surgeon-General.
 At that time I was informed about this project and became involved in planning around the project.  However, I had no direct responsibility for what was taking place within the project.  That was the responsibility of the project manager, General Nieuwoudt.
 When I was appointed as Deputy Chief of Staff, Operations, of the Defence headquarters on the 1st of January 1987 I was transferred away from the South African Medical Service to the Defence headquarters.  I worked in a totally different capacity which I can discuss if you want to hear about it.  But the point I am trying to make is during that time, 1987, I was not really directly involved in the project although I was from time-to-time asked to attend various meetings.
 At the end of 1987 I was transferred back to the South African Medical Service from the beginning of 1988, 1st of January 1988, and I was appointed Surgeon-General on the 1st of March 1988.
 From that time onwards I had to take over the position of project manager from General Nieuwoudt.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  Now regarding the position of Surgeon- General of the South African Defence Force, what were the professional and if I could even say, personal, requirements for being appointed to that position?