Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

MR MASHAMBA: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mashamba, I see in your application here you indicate that you were born on the 2nd February 1963?  Is that your correct date of birth?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Now you're appearing here before the Amnesty Committee on charges.  Which are the charges which you appear here for?

MR MASHAMBA: Murder and arson.

MR NDOU: Murder of who?

MR MASHAMBA: France Khomogwe

MR NDOU: And the arson in respect of whom?

MR MASHAMBA: In connection with the house of Mafune.

MR NDOU: And where do these two people reside?

MR MASHAMBA: France Khomogwe is staying at Chikane ...(indistinct)

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR MASHAMBA: Mafune is staying at ...(indistinct)

MR NDOU: Explain to this Committee as to how it came about that you committed these offences?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

MR NDOU: When did these offences take place?

MR MASHAMBA: It took place on 11th February 1990.

MR NDOU: Is that the same date on which the former president Mandela was released?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes it's correct.

MR NDOU: Now could you explain to the Committee as to what transpired?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I could.

MR NDOU: Please do so.

MR MASHAMBA: On that day of the 11th February 1990 I found people celebrating about the release of President Mandela and people who were talking and then I reached my hand and said how do you we feel this issue of the people who are committing ritual murders and witchcraft which is such an extent they are not working properly with the people.

MR NDOU: Proceed?

MR MASHAMBA: It's then that the majority of people that what we think we must do or was the solution on that?  I said that where I am staying there is a person called Joseph Tshimbupfe.
he is a ritual murderer and he is disturbing the community.

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR MASHAMBA: It's then that a certain TV Mapulani who is staying in the same village said that France Khomogwe is a witch from there, he said a certain person from Dindela called Thomas Ndau said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When was all this when you were talking about these witches?

MR MASHAMBA: It was during the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: What meeting?

MR MASHAMBA: Of celebrating the release of Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm sorry, you mentioned a name, you said Joseph and what was his name was a man committing ritual murders.  What was the name of this man?

MR MASHAMBA: Joseph Tshimbupfe.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell it?

MR MASHAMBA: T-S-H-I-M-B-U-P-F-E.

MR NDOU: Now you say you were at this meeting and you started raising the issue of witches and ritual murders?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes it's true.

MR NDOU: Why were you raising these issues?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because those two people were not making the community to live well or they were not on good terms with the community.

CHAIRPERSON: What were they doing to the community.

MR MASHAMBA: They were committing ritual murders and others were practising witchcraft.

MR NDOU: And did that have anything to do with politics?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because the person who was committing ritual murder he was a member of parliament.  I think if I'm sure he was the speaker of parliament, he was holding a high position in government, I think he was the speaker of the parliament.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that Joseph?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes and then?

MR MASHAMBA: Then as a community we agreed that this way we are celebrating we must also involve him in this.

MR NDOU: How involve him?  How were you going to involve him?

MR MASHAMBA: By following him and then killing him.

MR NDOU: Please explain to the Committee.

MR MASHAMBA: We agreed that it is better as we are celebrating we must also stand there and go there.  We followed him and found him in his cave and then we found that it was past about 6 or 7 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you want to kill him?

MR MASHAMBA: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you want to kill him?

MR MASHAMBA: It was just because he was participating in ritual killings.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's be careful now.  You know, you come here to apply for amnesty.  I want you to listen very carefully and I want you to consider your answers very carefully.  In order to obtain or to be granted amnesty the act or offence for which  you apply for amnesty must have been committed for a political reason.  In other words that act must advance or intended to advance a political position.  Do you understand that?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And secondly, when you testify you must make full disclosure in relation to that act for which you apply for amnesty, do you understand that?  Full disclosure is you must tell us all the relevant aspects of what you did and why.  Do you understand?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to explain to us, this decision to kill the witches, how did that relate to a political objective or how did that advance a political stance or position?

MR MASHAMBA: It is because those people who were in power at the time were working together with both which the power they used they were getting from the Inyanga and the witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that I didn't understand you?

MR MASHAMBA: They were participating in ritual killings, it was coming from the witch and the Inyanga so that they can be getting respect or just tell everything in the way that we will just admit it.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow you.  How would killing a witch improve the political stance that you had?

MR MASHAMBA: It is because those people who were in power, the power to kill the people who they were getting it from the witch and the witchdoctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so?  How did that become political?

MR MASHAMBA: It is related because the people who were ruling by the time they were the ones who was practising ritual murder getting order from the witchdoctor and the witch, that we as Venda we believed that there is no person who can kill a person ritually and not getting order from the witchdoctor or the witch who knows how these things works.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to listen very carefully to me.  You must remember what I explained to you about the Act, the requirements you need to fulfil in order to be granted amnesty.  Remember you must make full disclosure and the acts for which you apply for amnesty must have been done with a political motive that includes advancing your political position.  Okay, do you understand?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm going to try to help you now.  I've been struggling to find out from you what political motive was the killing of witches committed or how did it advance your political position or even that of your political organisation.  We are also aware of the fact that at the time there was an approach towards witches where people were starting to reject the idea of the witches practices especially witches murders.  That was quite apart from any political stance or political activity, do you understand.  It's quite separate, there was nothing political about that in some quarters while in fact we also know that in other quarters the attack on witches indeed took on a political flavour.  Now I'm going to ask you a simple question, I'm going to ask now which category did you fall in when you made this decision or party that decision to kill witches but before you answer I may as well tell you now that whatever answer you give, I'm going to ask you why you say so, do you understand?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you don't understand?  You can ask now, feel free.

MR MASHAMBA: I don't have.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then I'm going to ask you the question.  In which category did you fall when you took the decision that the witches should be killed?

MR MASHAMBA: I was supporting that they must be killed.