Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR BASSON: That is not true, I've given the numbers I had available to Mr Chaskalson, I've made two other telephone calls in order to find out what Mr Cilliers' cellphone number is.   Whether he could find that cell number, I don't know.   I've given my full co-operation in an attempt to find him.

MR VALLY: Well I withdraw that then if Dr Basson has in fact done so.   In any event, to what extent can you hide behind your attorneys?   If your attorneys act in an irresponsible manner regarding protecting your rights, can we let the situation continue?   We must remember that this is part of a pattern, this is Wednesday, Thursday and now Friday.   Dr Basson may be able to hide behind his advocates today, if it is true, the allegations against them, but certainly he has to take responsibility for why we are in this position on this last day.   I respectfully submit that I should be allowed to continue questioning Dr Wouter Basson, thereafter getting, after getting his position on record, we can take whatever steps necessary and I will make an application in that regard.  Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, then can you continue?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.   Dr Wouter Basson, I put to you that the items which appear on TRC52 were designed to either injure or murder either individuals or groups of people in terms of the poisons which were put into very basic substances like chocolate and whisky and shampoo and sugar.   What's your response to that please?

DR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I've already answered this question. I want to put it on record that I have answered that question at great length and at this stage I do not have competent legal representation and I'm not in a position to answer without prejudicing my rights, and I will not be in a position to answer questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you a favour, it's not a command, it's not an order, I have sat here in full appreciation of your competence and I say this with respect and with humbleness, but I'm well aware of a disposition on your part which may want to be saying, "I have rights, I have to assert them".   I have a sense that if you got yourself to it, you could actually competently reply to some or even all of the questions that are put to you, in the same way that I was able to observe that in some instances, possibly against what would have been the choice of your legal representatives, but precisely because you wanted to make certain positions very clear, you, even before they could intervene, you replied in a manner in which they allowed you to say what you want to say.   As I say, I am not by any means asking you to waive your rights, I'm not by any means asking you to throw away rights which you have, I'm simply saying it may well be that your questions, I mean the questions put to you, which if your replies are anything to go by, may put to rest some of these interrogatories, it's just a plea.

DR BASSON: Mr Chairman, thank you for your approach, thank you for the compliment you've paid me, it is so that certainly today I've answered quite a few questions which my legal representatives were unsure about, it's part of the problem and of the situation, because they are not technical people, there are things which they do not understand, I understand it easier and I can understand the question. I do not have the insight to understand which things I can say which could cause problems at a later stage.   I cannot determine the direction of the questions, which they can do, because I'm busy with the facts of the moment. It is so that I've been busy here for nine hours, my adrenaline levels are quite high, and the degree to which I can handle myself is decreasing.   I can make mistakes.   It's not that I'm going to tell lies, but as I've asked, concerning the in camera hearing, I might mention some facts which would be prejudicial to me in my criminal case, and I request that you will take that into regard when you make your decisions.  Today I've tried to co-operate to the fullest extent within my abilities.

MR VALLY: I want to go on with my questioning, Dr Basson.  Dr Basson, on the list, TRC52, is there any single item there, that you are aware of, which was not, or could not have legitimately, in terms of project coast, been produced at Roodeplaat Research Laboratories?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, I do not understand this question.  If he can repeat the question.   I lost him somewhere along the way.

MR VALLY: Certainly.   Let me put it in context.   When I asked you about the cyanide in the chocolate, you explained to me you needed to educate people as to the possibilities of how it could happen to them. When I asked you about the cholera, you explained to us that it was possibly made for whatever purposes you explained.   There's typhirium(?) in deodorant, which is one can say typhoid delivered through a deodorant, for example, the very last item, TRC52... (intervention).

DR BASSON: It's not typhoid, it's salmonella.

MR VALLY: Oh, I beg your pardon, salmonella, I'm so sorry, because I'm sure I saw typhoid somewhere else.   In any event, of this list that we have in TRC52, and I'm talking about these combinations, I'm talking about acid in whisky, aldycarb in orange juice, beer with thallium, sugar with salmonella, whisky with paraquat, we've talked about the baboon foetus, peppermint chocolates with aldycarb, peppermint chocolates with brodifarcum, peppermint chocolates with cathradin, peppermint chocolates with cyanide, we've talked about the cholera already, and I can go on, mamba toxin, whisky with colchicine, I believe, and it says "cultures from letters", and we've heard evidence to the effect that there were anthrax spoors put on the gum of envelopes, is there any item here, in the peculiar combinations that they are in, which you would say was out of place in terms of the work or the research being done at RRL?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, I'll answer this question, because we've already dealt with TRC52 to a great extent, and I do feel competent enough in order to handle this line of questioning to answer his question.   I'd say if you quickly page through this list, I cannot accept responsibility for each item, but I can put it as a general point that most of these substances are known, well-known substances, they're well used, and the fact that Roodeplaat prepared them was not in any way irregular.   The substances, as far as I know and the ones I received, and again I must tell you that I did not receive all of these, I cannot remember if I did, I cannot take responsibility for each of these items, but I can say that generally speaking these type of items and substances were used for legitimate training and research purposes, and as far as I know, there's not a single individual who got harmed in any of these substances.

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, when you refer to these substances, you're also referring to the particular combination that is set out there, whisky and paraquat, typhirium in deodorant, for example, whisky with colchicine, in that combination, you wouldn't see it out of place in terms of what the responsibilities of the researchers at RRL were?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, these combinations were not the responsibility of the researchers at Roodeplaat Research Laboratory, these combinations were the responsibility of research and training in institutions outside of Roodeplaat.  Roodeplaat prepared these combinations for further research and for further development, and once again I repeat, as far as I know there is not a single individual or now five or six or seven years investigations by several officials, not one individual was found who was harmed by any of these products, or who could be directly linked to any of these products.

MR VALLY: I accept what you... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

MR VALLY: Sorry.