Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now after the killing what did you do as a group?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I left together with my fellow members.  We were now going to search all the shacks which were hiding place for the youth.

MR MAPOMA: Were there some of the members of the group who were left nearby the scene?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Not even one was left behind.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were searching the shacks, did you go to the shack of Mr Buthelezi?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No, I did not go.

MR MAPOMA: Were you going in different groups when you were from the scene of the killing?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I do not recall separating into groups but as we walked along we were not in a group, we were not one group, some were walking in front of the others and others were just behind.

MR MAPOMA: Which area of the shacks did you go search?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Block E, Block D and Block A.

MR MAPOMA: Now did you find anything when you went searching?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What did you find?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: We found different car engines.  We found different motor vehicle parts.  We found different clothing.  We found blankets, radios.

MR MAPOMA: Did you - were you aware of the reports that were made by Mr Buthelezi's son, where Mr Buthelezi accused his father of having sent them to go rob and go kill Blanko?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Repeat your question sir.  The interpreter is very fast.  Or I don't know whether you are the fast person.

MR MAPOMA: Let me make this - let me just remind you.  There is evidence here that amongst the youth that were captured was Thokozani Buthelezi, the son of Mr Alfred Buthelezi, did you get that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I heard that rumour.

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Buthelezi's son is said to have accused his father of having sent them to do all the activities they were alleged to have been doing.  Did you get that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Were you present when Mr Buthelezi's son was making these accusations to his father?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I do not know sir.  I want to tell you what happened in my presence.  At the shack before they were taken down, he said that we are in this situation today because of you and your group.

MR MAPOMA: Who said what?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: The son was addressing the father.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you left the scene of killing, you went to search for items associated with the criminal activities of what you call the gangsters, is it not the case?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Not necessarily sir.  Our intention was not to search for the stolen goods.

MR MAPOMA: [inaudible]

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: We were going to search for a gun that was stolen from Blanko on the day of his death.

MR MAPOMA: Did you get the gun?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.  We did not get the gun.

MR MAPOMA: But after getting some of the items you continued with your search, is this so?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Repeat your question sir.

MR MAPOMA: You went to one shack to another.  You got these items from this shack, you continued to search throughout the area, is it not the case?  I'm saying, when you were searching, you were getting different items from a shack to a shack and you searched through the area which you were searching through, is it so?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: You were not specific sir.  We did not find the items and take them.  We found them inside then we carried on searching for - searching in the other shacks.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were searching in the other shacks are you saying you did not go to Mr Buthelezi's shack even though his son has accused him of having instructed them to do the activities they were doing?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I did not go.  Maybe others did go.  I didn't.

MR MAPOMA: Now, let's go to the 1400 motor vehicle which was driven.  Was it a motor vehicle belonging to a member of the community?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That was what I discovered.

MR MAPOMA: Whose car was it?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I do not have the names of the owner of the car but he was a resident there.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not go check Mr Buthelezi's shack, you having heard these allegations from his son?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: If you remember what I said earlier on, I said they searched houses or shacks where they thought it was a hiding place for them, not their parents homes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Just one question Mr Chair.  Remember you said, to use your words, "psychologically and
spiritually", you did not agree with the order but physically you did.  Now my question is, was the carrying out of the order dependent on your personal feelings?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know where this is going to take us because Mr Mthembu has told us that he did not take part in the killing, he was not armed, he has never killed in his life, he never wanted to kill.  He was just present there.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mthembu, by saying you were merely present at the place where the order was made, are you trying to tell the Committee that you participated in the  deliberations, in the discussions which lead to the order being made?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That's what I would say sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, Bulelwa was a member of the Civic who assisted the SDU's by, among others, collecting money and then Blanko was one of the higher ranking members of the SDU.  During the killing were you not emotionally charged, were you emotions not high?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: The charging of emotions is different.  I must say I was deeply disturbed and hurt because I lost them.

MR SIBANYONI: When these members of the ANC Youth League were taken from the shack to the veld, didn't you assist by, let us say, dragging them or holding them not to run away?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I did not assist in dragging them.  I was walking like anyone who was escorting them to the veld.

MR SIBANYONI: Never even laying a hand on any of these people?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Just on this last question.  Are you telling us that the children walked voluntarily into the veld, knowing that they were going to be killed and shot?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Sir, if you understood me well, well, let me repeat myself.  Maybe you did not understand me.  I said I was one of the people who accompanied them.  Members of the SDU were present and all of us were walking together with these youth.

MR MALAN: Mr Mthembu that's not the question.  The question is whether the youth walked and you simply walked with them or
whether you used some kind of force to get them into the veld?  That's the question.  Did you have to use any force?  Any members of the SDU?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I would say yes.  There was force used.  Because they were being pushed.

MR MALAN: Who pushed them?  Did you push them?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Ramabele was present.  Moses.  Those who were carefully guarding them were those on the sides who were armed with guns.

MR MALAN: Mr Mthembu, this is really for the sake of getting the victims and their families to understand what happened, to them it's important.  The people walking with the guns, are you telling us they were also the people physically forcing the victims to their death and the other people without guns, they were gladly strolling along with you, is that the story?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MALAN: What was your role?  Did you not participate physically in any way, you were simply an observer walking along to their killing?