Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: No because I was not comfortable with the firearm that was with me so I decided to turn back.

MR MAPOMA: Did you attempt to chase him?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes but only a few paces and I also called out that he must not run away but he didn't stop he continued running away.

MR MAPOMA: Now how many shots did you hear?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Two shots.

MR MAPOMA: Why was he shot at?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Gumengu said that Sthembele tried to grab his firearm that is why he shot at him but he told me after a while that he had instructions to shoot at Sthembele but he told me that not that particular day but after some time.

MR MAPOMA: When he was running away were you - okay I'll leave it there, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Malan any questions?

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Shlobo, what was your rank at that point in time?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I was a sergeant.

MR MALAN: Was that equal to that of Mr Gumengu?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: On that particular night was Mr Zokwe, the deceased, was he arrested?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He was arrested because we told him that we were arresting him concerning the arms that he allegedly had in Butterworth and Gumengu said that he was also involved in a shooting with him in another place and so he was wanted for that case.

MR MALAN: Why didn't you proceed to the nearest police station?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: When he wanted to show us where the arms were there was no need for that so we had to go and check the place that he had said he had weapons in.

MR MALAN: If I understand you correctly, Mr Shlobo, you went to the quarry on Mr Zokwe's instructions, if I can call it instructions, suggestions?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes but he did not say that we were going to the quarries but he gave us the directions to take.

MR MALAN: I accept that.  Who was driving the vehicle?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: It was Mr Nogane.

MR MALAN: Can you inform this Committee why you were both of you issued with R1 rifles while I presume your normal issue will be a handgun, a pistol or revolver?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: In my unit, the investigative unit, we had all the firearms, that were official, the BXB, R1, 9 mm.  When we were going to an operation we would have all those weapons with us.

MR MALAN: But what did you select to take a weapon that you yourself indicated was uncomfortable if I recall it correctly?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I said that I was uncomfortable and I mentioned that when I was talking about chasing Sthembele when I was running away, I said that I was uncomfortable with that firearm.

MR MALAN: Okay, I'll leave that there.  What was the purpose of stopping the vehicle?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Sthembele was going to locate the place that these arms were.

MR MALAN: I put it to you that my instructions were and that it was indeed testified under oath that Mr Gumengu requested you to stop, he wanted to relieve himself, not you, the driver of the vehicle?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I heard his testimony when he was saying that.

MR MALAN: What do you say about that?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I still stand with what I had testified here before this Committee.

MR MALAN: Alright.  Was it not the procedure when you arrest somebody to put him in handcuffs?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is not - we were not forced to do that.  If there was a van with a canopy there was no need to do that as long as that person cannot be able to run away.

MR MALAN: So you were not travelling in a van fitting that description?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: We were using an open van without a canopy.

MR MALAN: Precisely, why wasn't Mr Zokwe handcuffed according to your procedures?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I did not have handcuffs with me.

MR MALAN: And yet you set out to go and arrest the person?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Did any of you have handcuffs?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I wouldn't be sure about that.

MR MALAN: Alright, thank you.  You testified that you heard a gunshot, was that right?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Then my learned friend asked you how many shots and then you said there was two shots?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you explain the discrepancy between the first and the second statement?  If I can just go further because you said you heard a gunshot and Gumengu returned and said he tried to take his firearm with?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: There were two shots, maybe I made a mistake but there were two shots that I heard.

MR MALAN: Alright, I cannot find it at this point in time but I can recall that somewhere in one of the bundles, it was said that Mr Zokwe was shot three times?

JUDGE MILLER: I think it's in the - if you go to the summary of substantial facts.  There on the first page, page 4, fourth line from the bottom
"Dynamite house where he was shot thrice in the head."

MR MALAN: Thank you so much, I'm indebted.  Do you have that page 4?

JUDGE MILLER: Fourth last line.

MR MALAN: Fourth last line
"The deceased was taken to a small empty building commonly referred to as the Dynamite House where he was shot thrice in the head and neck."
	Now if you heard only two shots can you explain how he ended up with three wounds?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I would not be sure but it happens sometimes that a bullet would penetrate a certain place in the body and then go out in another place.  I'm just speculating but there are such cases whereby it would enter the other side and then go out on the other side.  I'm not sure about this case, I'm not sure about what happened in this case.

MR MALAN: I accept what you say, Sir, but in this instance the State wanted to prove that three shots were fired and they would, I presume, in these circumstances verify if it is an entrance hole or an exit hole but it distinctly says three shots.  Can you tell this Committee where you think the other shot came from?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I wouldn't know.

MR MALAN: But according to you it's impossible because only two shots were fired, that there could have been three separate bullet wounds?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I heard two shots only, so I'm not an expert in this but I'm not sure about what happened.

MR MALAN: Yes but the logical deduction is there there's something amiss here, it's not a trick question, it's merely logic?  Do you agree?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I don't know.

MR MALAN: Where was the deceased sitting while you were travelling?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He was sitting in between the other side, it was myself and the other side was Mr Gumengu in the front seat.

MR MALAN: I'm quite sure?  There was the driver Mr Nogane and then?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: It was the driver and then myself.

MR MALAN: And then?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: And the deceased and then Mr Gumengu.

MR MALAN: Were there four people in front?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Right.

JUDGE MILLER: What sort of vehicle was this, what was the make, was it a Toyota or Nissan or what was it?

MR MALAN: Nissan.

JUDGE MILLER: Right.  When this incident took place how far were you from Mr Gumengu when he fired the first shot?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I cannot be sure because he was in the dongas and it was dark so I only heard a gunshot so I'm not sure how far he was from me.

MR MALAN: Wasn't it the fact that the deceased ran in the direction of Mr Gumengu where he was relieving himself?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: No, it didn't happen that way.  Maybe when they were in the dongas it happened that way but I'm not sure, I don't know how it happened when they were there.