Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Can I please call John Mokgatlanyane.

MS SEROKE: Speaks to John Mokgatlanyane in Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Seroke.  Can I also say that if there's anyone in the audience who wishes to have on of the headphones I see there are some extra ones here on the chair in front.  If you, if  it will assist you in understanding what's going on.  Good.  John, good afternoon.

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Afternoon, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been, you've been here since early this morning.  I, I thank you for your patience.  John, Dr Ally is going to be helping you as you tell your story, but I would like Professor Piet Meiring just to assist you in, in taking the oath please.  Will you please stand.
PROF. MEIRING: John, will you please repeat after me, that everything  I say is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God.

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, and welcome to you, John.  You, you're coming to speak about a very horrific experience.  Something that happened to you, personally, in 1991, in January 1991, a period, or a time when there was great unrest  in the former homeland, former Boputhatswana. This was a year after the ANC had been unbanned  in the country as a whole, but there was still serious problems in Bop about the rights of the ANC to actually operate freely.  It produced a lot of conflict and a lot of people were caught up in this conflict and you were one of those.  So, I'd like you just to  give us an account of what actually happened to you during that time.

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: It was on the 8th, in 1991.  It was on Tuesday.  We went to Mr Selomi's house.  We were going to pray, because his house was burnt, and the police came.  When they arrived, they shot us with teargas and rubber bullets and living bullets.  After that, we dispersed and others were injured and I was also a victim, because they shot me and they took me to the hospital at Lefurutsi.  That's all.

RUSSELL ALLY: How old were you at the time of this incident ?  Can you remember ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I was twenty  years old.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what were you doing at the time ?  Were you at school ?  Were you working ?  What was your ...

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I was not working.

RUSSELL ALLY: Were you at school ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I was not at school.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you were unemployed ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes....

RUSSELL ALLY: Now you say that, that there was this, a prayer meeting, right, because the house of this family had been burnt ?  Was this, did this prayer meeting, did it, was there any kind of political aspect to it ?  Was it, was it also about, about the political conflict taking place at the time ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, there was political conflict at the time.

RUSSELL ALLY: This prayer meeting at this house.  The man whose house was burnt, was he seen as  a - was he politically active ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: He was not politically active.

RUSSELL ALLY: Why was his, why was his house burnt ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: We don't know how it was burnt.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you have any idea of who burnt the house ?  Were there any rumours, any stories about who was responsible for burning his house ?  This is Mr Soluma, this is the person you're speaking about is that correct ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I don't know the people who burnt the house.

RUSSELL ALLY: The person whose house was burnt you said the name was it Soluma ?  Is that the name that you mentioned ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, that's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you don't know why the house was burnt, and you don't know, you don't have an idea who was supposed to have burnt the house ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I don't know how to put it.

RUSSELL ALLY: Put it the best way that you, that you can, whichever way you want to put it and we and we will see if we can work out what you're trying to say.

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: His house was burnt because he was supporting Papsi Sebogodi.

RUSSELL ALLY: So it was part of this conflict with these two Chiefs, that we've heard about ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, that's true.  It  was part of this conflict between the two Chiefs.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you were twenty years old at the time.  Were  you involved in aany structures, any youth structures, or political structures or any kind ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I was a member of the African National Congress at the time.

RUSSELL ALLY: When did you become a member of the African National Congress ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I, the answer is not clear, Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was this, sorry, we didn't, I did hear you ?  When did you say you became a member of the African National Congress ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: 99.  That's 1990, Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thanks.  So at this house, at this prayer meeting, was it known that these were ANC people or supporters of the ANC, who also supported the Chief, Segodi ?  Was that the nature of that prayer meeting ?  Is that correct ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes that's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, when the police arrived, the Bop, the Boputhatswana police did they give any instructions, to the people there ?  Did they say, you have five minutes to  disperse,  this  is  an  illegal  gathering?    What  actually  happened  when  the  police arrived ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I heard a loudspeaker talking, saying we should disperse.  Whilst  we were trying to disperse then they started shooting us with the rubber bullets and teargas.  Then others were injured, then  some were arrested.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was anybody killed on that day, do you know ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, he's there.

RUSSELL ALLY: What about the people who were killed, what do you know about that day ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: I know about George Segwati, that's all.

RUSSELL ALLY: How did George Segwati die ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: He was shot and then he was taken to hospital, then he died in hospital.  I, we were in the same van when we were taken to the hospital.

RUSSELL ALLY: So, you were taken to hospital and at the hospital, what did they find out, had happened to you?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: (speaks in Tswana)

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry I didn't hear that.  Just repeat that please.   Ok, no never mind, let's continue.  When you got to hospital, they discovered that you'd actually been, been shot ... (interrupted)

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes,  they saw that I was shot.

RUSSELL ALLY: Right, and tell us about that.  Where had you been shot ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: On my private parts, Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was that live ammunition, or was that the rubber bullets, who, what, what, what had you been shot, what had you been shot with ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: It was a live bullet, Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: So when you got to the hospital, what did they have to do to you, because of this, because of the way you had been shot ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: On my way to the hospital I fainted therefore I don't remember what happened in the hospital.

RUSSELL ALLY: But you had an operation when you were in hospital.  Yes?  They operated on you?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I was operated.

RUSSELL ALLY: And were your testicles removed as a result of the way you had been shot?  Is  that correct?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, that's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: And did you have to continue to go into the hospital for treatment after that?  What happened ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes,  I continued at the hospital for medical attention but I was never better.  I was taken to Harankwe hospital.  At Harankwe they tried, they did try to help me.  After I was released, I went to Johannesburg hospital, General hospital.  That's where I was a little bit better.

RUSSELL ALLY: And now, what's the situation ?  What's happening to you and what's your health like ?

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: It's no more the same as before, before I was shot but now I feel many pains.  When I think of what has happened to me I become emotionally disturbed.