Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

UNKNOWN: When I go back two sentences, then it is the 
beginning of the summary of your sentence.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Okay, I apologise.

UNKNOWN: Now, where do you want, must I just read the 
whole thing?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No, no, go back.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Arendse, you shouldn't ask him where 
you should read.  You've got a question to put to him, read the 
portion that you think is relevant for the purposes of your question.

UNKNOWN: Well, he asked me to read it Mr Chairman.  
Benjamin Brode, like Jose Cerqueira the deceased of whom mention 
has just been made, were working at the restaurant Machados.  He 
along with Jose Cerqueira, his wife as well as another waiter stayed 
behind while all the guests have left the restaurant at quarter past 
eleven.
	They were clearing up when they heard something like a 
motor vehicle backfiring, he ran outside and saw three men who 
appeared to be throwing fire crackers and they were getting into a 
car.
	As he stepped down from the step of the restaurant onto the 
pavement, he saw a large, dark motor vehicle parked against the one 
way.  He had not at that point realised that something was going 
wrong.  The motor vehicle then slowly moved in his direction.
	Now my question was, I am sorry if it wasn't clear to you, my 
question was are you seeing all this as you come out of Machados?  
Are you seeing these men who are looking like they are throwing 
these crackers, getting into the car and the very next moment, they 
are coming towards you in the car?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And when they come towards you while they are 
inside the car, they are firing in your direction?

BENJAMIN BRODE: They turned their fire on us.

UNKNOWN: While they were in the car?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: So they never fired at you while they were 
standing outside or whatever they were doing, where they were 
standing outside the Heidelberg Tavern?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Well, no bullet came passed my head, no.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  So would it be correct to say that they 
fired only at you once they had been in the car, once they got into 
the car?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes, well, I don't think - they didn't fire at me before 
they got into the car.  Before they were on top of us.

UNKNOWN: The firing came while the car was moving 
towards you and these three people they had by now gotten into the 
car?

BENJAMIN BRODE: They got in the car firing yes, but they were firing at 
the Heidelberg Tavern and they were firing you know, just all 
around, but nothing came towards us.  To me I have seen flares to 
both sides of the street, but not down the street.

UNKNOWN: Now, at that point, you are now observing this 
and you don't see the late Mr Cerqueira in the vicinity?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Not at all.

UNKNOWN: Isn't it then possible that he comes out somehow 
passes you and had on his own, shot at the attackers, inviting them 
or maybe that word is entirely inappropriate, but then resulting in 
shots being fired also in your direction?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I didn't see that.

UNKNOWN: Because your focus must have been on this car 
and this car coming at you?  Surely that must have been your focus? 
 You must have been terrified?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes, that was our focus.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on please.

UNKNOWN: Did you pick up anything, did you pick up 
anything Mr Brode at the scene or from the deceased?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I can't remember much.  It was difficult you know.

UNKNOWN: Could you remember whether Frans picked up 
anything?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I can't remember.

UNKNOWN: And I mean it is because you can't remember that 
is why you didn't mention the pouch at court or in any of your 
statements?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I am trying my utmost to assist where I can.  I can't 
remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Arendse, are there any other questions?

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: No re-examination Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Brode, when you keep on saying I cannot 
remember, is that because of the manner in which your health has 
been effected by all this?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brode, thank you very much, you are excused 
from further attendance.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I call the last witness, that is available, 
have we got enough time?  It is Mr Fourie?

CHAIRPERSON: I understand the interpreters have to leave at 
quarter to four.

MR PRIOR: Can we fit him in, I don't want to curtail his 
submission.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know how long you will be, so I can't tell 
you whether you should call him or not.

MR PRIOR: I understand my learned friend will be 
accommodating, he is not a witness to the events, he simply wants to 
make a submission, so if my learned friend can maybe give the 
Commission an indication, then we can fit Mr Fourie in.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to give evidence or make a 
statement?

MR PRIOR: He is going to give evidence, simply refer the 
Committee to the statement and confirm the statement.

MR FOURIE: (sworn states)

MR PRIOR: Mr Fourie, is it correct that 
Lindi Anne Fourie was your daughter and she died in the attack at 
Heidelberg?

MR FOURIE: That is right.

MR PRIOR: You have prepared a submission for the Committee?

MR FOURIE: That is right.

MR PRIOR: Would you read those submissions out?

MR FOURIE: I do believe you have a copy of what I have typed 
here?

MR PRIOR: Yes, and so does the Committee.  If it is at all 
possible, we don't want to curtail you, but where you can 
summarise, would you be willing to do that or would you want to 
read it all out?

MR FOURIE: Would you rather I give it to you on Monday in a 
typed out form, so that you can then consider it at your own time?

MR PRIOR: Well, we have the submissions that you have prepared, 
that bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: They are on oath, are they?

MR PRIOR: They are not on oath, but I will ask him to confirm 
them.

MR FOURIE: I have signed a document here, you can have it if 
you wish Mr Chairman.  But there are other observations that I wish 
to make based on what I have seen and heard here this passed week.
	Mr Fourie, if you could make your submissions.

MR FOURIE: Reads-
		"Chicken, please be careful when you and your friends 
visit in and around Mowbray and Observatory areas.  
Why Pops?  My girl, there is some strange people in 
this world and strange things happen in some of these 
parts of town.  Ag pappie, moenie worry nie, we will be 
all right."
	Isn't it ironic that these would be the last words that my 
daughter and I would exchange on that evening, her last words in 
her life.  
	Mr Chairman, panel members and others, my wife and I am 
here to honour and defend the memory of our only daughter, Lindi 
Anne, we also speak for our son who is in England and the rest of 
Lindi's family and her many friends who are may add are of many 
persuasions and some of whom are, if you will pardon the term, not 
white.
	As Lindi's father, responsible for her existence, I accepted the 
responsibility of raising and caring for her to the best of my ability, 
together with the help and input of my wife and our son Anthony as 
well as those around us.  Those have made up Lindi's family, her 
school teachers, her fellow church members and her many other 
friends, to these I say thank you for returning the love that Lindi 
gave of so freely.
	Now that Lindi's mother has stated her position and feelings 
on the death of our only daughter, I thank her publicly for being a 
wonderful mother to Lindi.  Her example and encouragement will 
long be remembered by the rest of her family, especially by Anthony 
and myself.
	I will then now continue and leave out the rest of my written 
submission, my typed submission and I  will make some 
observations, based on what I have seen and heard here Mr 
Chairman.