Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

WITNESS:   Then I said to Maputle, "It doesn't help because the situation is tense.  Isn't it better that we should fight.  You hear that people's children have been abducted.  We don't know what's happening to them.  Maybe they're going to be killed and we are sitting - you want to sit down and negotiate with these people.  It was better for us to go and fight with these people."  Then he said to me, "Malaka, leave that."  Then I said to these people, "Let's go."  Then we went out.  When I was in the car I said to these people who are in the car, "I'm smelling blood."  Then I said I was smelling blood on my nose.  Then I said, "First thing, we go to where Tabang was abducted to find out what is happening."  Then they said, "Yes, let's go."  Then we went with my car.  When we went to the tavern the Kombi appeared.  Mwilwa's Kombi came and it  was fast.  It was flickering the lights.  Then I said, "They're mad.  I'm not going to stop."  When I turned in the direction of the tavern it was near us.  Then from there they started insulting.  Then I said to the people I was with, "You see these people, they are now fighting."  Then I said to them, "What is your intention?"  Then they said, "We will see."  We were not nearer the tavern.  It was about where I'm sitting up to the corner there at the back.  They wanted to move in front of me.  Then I stand before the tavern.  Then I could feel the doors were opening and the people I was with were no more there and I was the only one left in the car.  It was at that time when these people were confronting me and I could see two Kombis now and with a van and all these people were confronting me.  In front, I remember, it was Mogeti Dibuka.  On the left-hand side was Koster.  Others were in the middle.  Mogeti Dibuka was having his gun in the right hand and with an iron bar in his left hand.  When he came nearer me I was looking at him.  He took his gun to his left hand and then he took the iron bar to his left hand.  Then he started breaking the car.  Then he said, "Are you looking at you?"  Then he became to assault me.  It was then that I discovered that these people are fighting.  Then I came nearer to the other one, then I started beating him, then I took his axe.  Then I defended myself with an axe.  While I was still fighting, I don't know where these people came from.  There were two people who knew me.  These people were just from work.  Those people were the ones who mediated.  It was injured by that time.  They took me  inside the tavern.  Then they wanted me to wash but I said, "If I'm going to wash now, I'm going to set much of the blood."  After they put me with asyn(?) then the owner of the tavern said to me, "What is the problem?"  Then I said, "I don't know."  I explained everything what has happened.  Then he said, "Let's got to the police station."  I said, "Okay, let's go."  We went to his car.  It was my myself, it was him, this is another boy called Justice who's now a man.  We were three of us.  At the corner the police van arrived.  Then it stopped.  Then we went to that police van.  When we arrived at that van we found that it's Constable Zwayi.  It's another sergeant called Spilar.  Then the ... (intervention)

PROF MAGWAZA: (Inaudible) ... I think we're trying to as much to capture information.  There's too many names that are coming out and creating a problem because we don't know who those people are and they're not in the statement.  So if you mentioned people, could you explain to us who they are, or just tell us about those that are in the statement.

WITNESS:   Constable Zwayi arrived there as a policeman.  That is the person I explained to him, as a policeman.  Then he said to me, "It is better for you to go to the police station and make a statement there."  Then I said to him, "Please guard this car."  Then he said to me, "Do you see now that the situation is tense?"  Then I said to him, "Whether the situation is tense or not, it is your responsibility to guard my car."  Then he said to this white policeman - then the other policeman said, "No, I'm not going to do that.  I'm leaving."  Then I said, "That's okay."  I said to

PROF MAGWAZA: Miss Moloyi

PROF MAGWAZA: Miss Moloyi, "Let's leave."  Then we left with the car.  When we arrived at the police station we found Constable Kabayi who was in charge at that time.  He asked us what is our problem, then we explained to him what happened and how I was assaulted.  Then at that time Zwayi arrived.  Then Zwayi told the policeman in charge to take our statements.  After he said that Constable Kabayi said to him, "There is nowhere I can take the statements because after I've done that, when Van Rooyen is going to come, he's going to destroy them.  It is better for them to leave.  They will see how the would come back."  Then I said, "That's okay."  When I left there, I went to the doctor.  Then I asked Sisross(?) to drop me at the doctor so that I should be stitched.  Then he said to me, "That's okay."  When we arrived at the doctor that's where we entered.  Then he said, "The doctor is there.  Now I'm leaving."  We found another Comrade who was lying there being shot.  After a moment Van Rooyen arrived, then he asked the doctor, whilst the doctor was still examining me, then he said to the doctor, "Who is this one?"  Then the doctor explained that, "This is a person that I'm going to examine.  He's been injured at the tavern."  Then he said, "About this one?"  Then he said, "This one is the one who's shot."  The he said, after I've been stitched, "I'm going to arrest him and lock him at the cells."  Then I kept quiet.  After he said that, the doctor said to him, "You are not disturbing me because I'm doing my work, so possibly you've got to leave so that I should do my work.  You'll come when I'm finished."  Then Van Rooyen said, "How long are you going to take?"  The doctor  said, "I don't know."  Then the doctor said, "I'm going to examine you quickly.  You are now old.  You will see how you ... (incomplete).  Dr Zwane stitched me.  When he was supposed to have the last stitch, the van stopped outside.

PROF MAGWAZA: Can I disturb you for a moment, because I think I would like to clarify some things here before we get on or else we'll lose some of the information.  If you could just - I would like just to go back to clarify a few things.  I would like to clarify - if you could give me the specific names of the Comrades that were abducted, who were those Comrades?  The Comrades who were abducted.

WITNESS:   The other one is Kabansi Diyani.  That's the one - I don't know about others.  I don't remember their names well.

PROF MAGWAZA: So you know about Thamani?

WITNESS:   Yes.

PROF MAGWAZA: And could you tell us more about these other people you have mentioned, Mangcani, Thabani, Ramalela, I think you said they were all Comrades.

WITNESS:   This Mangcani -Mangcani Masodi is my niece.  Seuntjie Mabitle - we are staying in the same street.  Together with Ramalale we stay in the same street.  And Tabang Sibiyani is staying down but all of them are members of the ANC.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, that's what I would like to hear.  And the two men who assisted you, who were those two men?

WITNESS:  I don't know their names but the other one is Libothe(?).  Other's went to Lesotho, have went to Lesotho.

PROF MAGWAZA: The name Rose Maloyi.  She's still around?

WITNESS:   She still there.

PROF MAGWAZA: Then who's the station - you said the station  commander came and threatened to arrest you.  What's the name of the station commander?

WITNESS:   The name is Van Rooyen.

PROF MAGWAZA: Oh, it was Van Rooyen.  Okay.  You talk about Constable Zwayi and Miss Baloyi.  Who are those people?