Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR B WILLIAMS: So for a month, or approximately a month prior to the incident occurring, yourself and Eric Maluleka were the only sources of information, to your knowledge, available to Bellingan and Liebenberg, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: So then there is absolutely no basis for any
suggestion by Bellingan or Liebenberg that this group constituted
anything other than what you had said to them, mainly that they were untrained and had to be trained by yourself.  Am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: In your evidence you also say that you communicated with Liebenberg and Bellingan on a fairly regular basis over the period of, let's say the four weeks running up to the 3rd March, can you give the Committee and idea in terms of numbers, how many times did you meet Bellingan and Liebenberg?  I know it's a long time ago, but was it once a week in the four weeks or twice a week?

JIMMY MBANE: We would communicate every third or fourth day.  We would meet on the third day or fourth day.

MR B WILLIAMS: Alright, so your evidence and you maintain that your evidence is that apart from Rasta this group was otherwise an unarmed and untrained group, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Did you at any stage inform Bellingan that the group that you had infiltrated were armed with weapons and were openly parading at night with these weapons?

JIMMY MBANE: I've only told them that these people were unarmed.

MR B WILLIAMS: Would you agree that but for - or had you not trained this group as you had been instructed and had you not supplied arms to this group as you had been instructed, these individuals would still be alive today?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Mr Mbelo, do you understand the term "agent  provocateurs?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know.

MR B WILLIAMS: Alright.  Let me try and explain this.  An  "agent  provocateur"  is very simply someone who encourages other people to take offensive action in very simple terms.  Your role as an Askari was part of that effort to go into a group, encourage them to take a particular position, encourage them to take action to their detriment.  Was that part of your role as an Askari?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't do that, all I did was to be, I was only taking orders.

MR B WILLIAMS: With hindsight, with hindsight, do you think that perhaps this is what your commanders had in mind for the Guguletu 7 operation?  That they would send you in to train whoever and then take action against that group?  Is that what they had in mind here?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, the commanders were like that.

MR B WILLIAMS: You mentioned at some stage in your evidence that you were being kept under surveillance, you mentioned the incident about the helicopter and you've been asked about that but you also mention an incident about where patrols would sometimes pass you by.  What were you talking about there?  Patrols of the police would pass you by and you would know what your position was and where you were.  Can you explain that?

JIMMY MBANE: Let me start with this helicopter.  They wanted to locate me, they gave me the sign, they said to me I must wear a white cap and sit on top of the car on the roof of the car so that they can fly around that area.  There was a white kombi that would go past that area.  It would just patrol the area.  But they were not coming inside the area.  They wanted to see if there was a need for a backup or not.

MR B WILLIAMS: And you knew precisely who or what the purpose of this white kombi was?  You knew who was operating this vehicle?  In a sense that you knew it was a surveillance vehicle?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I knew.

MR B WILLIAMS: Was the idea also that you make yourself seen to this vehicle?  Did you have to make yourself visible to this vehicle?

JIMMY MBANE: I used to see them.

MR B WILLIAMS: Can you give the Committee an idea as to how regularly this kind of thing happened?

JIMMY MBANE: It only happened during the first two weeks and I requested them to stop.

MR B WILLIAMS: So once again, at least whilst you were in Khayelitsha, Mr Bellingan knew your whereabouts.  Is that what you're saying?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes when they were in the helicopter they could see me.

MR B WILLIAMS: And also as a consequence of their surveillance with the vehicle on the ground, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: They were just there as my backup but I told them to stop doing that later on.

MR B WILLIAMS: You have been cross-examined at length about variations in your evidence between how many people excluding yourself or including yourself and Eric Maluleka actually constituted the group.  If I understand your final position it is that the group consisted of seven people and yourself and Eric made up number eight and number nine.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Did you ever tell Mr Bellingan that the group constituted seventeen to twenty four people?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I didn't tell him that.  I don't know anything about seventeen to twenty four people.

MR B WILLIAMS: Did you say that the group contemplated to be involved in the attack would amount to about seventeen to twenty four people?  Did you tell Bellingan this at all?

JIMMY MBANE: I only told them about nine people and these people were seven and the eight it was myself and the ninth person was Eric and I was going to be a driver.

MR B WILLIAMS: So once again, when Bellingan says this in his evidence, then he is clearly incorrect, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: He is not telling the truth.

MR B WILLIAMS: Why do you think he is trying to exaggerate the size of this group?  What would the purpose of that be?

JIMMY MBANE: Maybe he is trying to cover up something, something that he knows because I used to tell him that there are seven people and the two of us, myself and Eric.  I don't know about the other numbers.  He knows.  Maybe there is something else that he is trying to hide.

MR B WILLIAMS: It must be quite apparent to you from the questions that were put to you by Bellingan's counsel that he is also trying to exaggerate the extent to which the group was armed and trained, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do you not think that the reason why there is this exaggeration is to justify the lethal response by the police on these seven individuals?  What do you say about that?

JIMMY MBANE: Maybe he would like to be granted amnesty.
Maybe he is trying to get amnesty.

MR B WILLIAMS: When you had a reconnaissance trip with Bellingan, was Liebenberg with you the day before when you went to the scene with a van with tinted windows?  Was Liebenberg with you on that day?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes Liebenberg was there, Bellingan was also there and the other people that I didn't know. They were white men, the car was almost full.

MR B WILLIAMS: Was that the time that he showed you precisely where he wants you to bring the vehicle into the intersection?

JIMMY MBANE: He didn't tell me about that, he only said he wanted us to be together in the car.  But the whereabouts of the car, he didn't say anything about them.  I just showed them the place where the attack was meant to take place.  About the location of the car, he didn't say anything.

MR B WILLIAMS: You see, Captain Bellingan testifies that he gave you specific instructions about pulling the van you were driving up of the kerb where it ended up standing on that particular day.  What do you say about that?

JIMMY MBANE: There's no such thing.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you saying it's pure coincidence that you vehicle ended up on the kerb where it was?

JIMMY MBANE: I think it was a coincidence because he didn't tell me that.  I just showed him him the road, he didn't tell me about that, it's just a coincidence.