Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

ADV SANDI: So the money was in your car for two to three weeks, you did not know, I understood from your evidence, you did not know how much exactly the money was that was in the bag?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Where was your vehicle parked, were you not concerned that someone could break into the car and steal the money?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  I lived in a State house, a house provided by the State and when I parked my car, it was not in front of the gate.  The vehicle was parked at Vlakplaas.  I would have had the same concern because we had several weapons in the vehicle, in the boots of our vehicles.  There is always the situation that someone could break in, but the money was not of import to me, it was nowhere a factor.

ADV SANDI: Why did you buy a plot with part of the money and give it to Mr Nortje when he came to you and said that he and his wife were looking for a plot?  Why was it so easy for you to just give it to Mr Nortje?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, because it wasn't my money.  I want to repeat it, it was not my money and it was not important to me and before this, I had made sure that all the members at Vlakplaas received financial benefit.

ADV SANDI: So when subsequently Mr Klopper came to you and said to you that he wanted to buy a house, you were able to just hand over to him one of the plots you had bought with the money?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That plot was bought with the rest of the money that remained, and yes, I had no problem with it.  I am not materially orientated, it was not a problem for me, and it wasn't my money.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr De Kock, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr De Kock, you say Mr Mbotoli was your source and you issued passports for him, one in his real name and another in a false name.  Are we to understand you that you also are applying for amnesty for having contravened some of the regulations in issuing false passports to Mr Mbotoli?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, if you would give me 30 seconds so that I can explain it with my representative.  No, I do not apply for that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.  Mr Mbotoli was here last week and then he told this Committee that he was not involved in any politics, that he was merely a business person.  You are saying to us that he was your source and he arranged a meeting between you and Duli, he introduced Mr Duli to you.  What would you say to his statement that he was not involved in politics?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is not true, Chairperson.  I know specifically that he was paid for his reports, his transport costs were paid, we paid him a monthly salary, he was a Headquarters' source.  I was introduced to him by Gen Engelbrecht, so what he says, is not true.  I have no problem if Mr Mbotoli and I came to sit before you and if they attached us to a polygraph machine and then we will see who will give the machine melt down, but it would not be me.

MR SIBANYONI: I now come to the question of the decorations which ... (tape ends) ... what those decorations were for, but I remember you saying in the previous hearings that during those decorations, it was not mentioned which purpose those decorations, or the rewards, were given.  How would the senior members know the reason for the decorations?

EUGENE DE KOCK: The awards was not given at a public parade where the public had access, and in all these instances, it was in an office, it was given to us in an office.  For example with the bomb in London, after the decoration, it was just Gen Mike Geldenhuys, Gen Johan Coetzee, the six persons who received the award, it was just us, there were only eight of us.  This was awarded in secret and there was a law which prohibited us to say what we received those decorations for, if one has regard for - the instructions were awarded and there was a short heading that the facts surrounding this operation, could not be made known because of the sensitivity of the operation.

MR SIBANYONI: Perhaps lastly, you said you were aware that the weapons you supplied, will be used in a coup and then that normally in a coup, people are injured or killed.  Do you take responsibility for the people who were killed during the attempted coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes, where I provided the weapons, I will take responsibility and I also take responsibility for my own people's actions where I involved them.  I have no problem with that.

MR SIBANYONI: Therefore you may have to amend your application on page 6 where there was a question whether there were any people injured or killed and your answer was not applicable, and you are aware that in this attempted coup, indeed people were injured and some were killed, although you may not know the identity of such people?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Can I just - something, Mr De Kock, would it be correct to say that from the evidence you have given, you were not compelled by Mr Nieuwoudt to accept this money, were you?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, he did not force me to take it, he did not threaten me to take it.

ADV SANDI: Why did you not say to him that I don't want any money, I was carrying out my official duties, you don't have to give me any money for this?  Why did you not say that to him?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, initially I did tell him, but I did not persist.  It did not happen.

ADV SANDI: Is it the position that in some of these Vlakplaas operations, members who were involved, would derive some personal benefit at the end of the day, would it be correct to think that that was the position?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, it is not like that.  There was a principle according to which the askaris would be paid a certain amount of money as an incentive, but not as a salary, not as an amount of money which would be paid if they performed an action.  If somebody had done good work, they could be remunerated or compensated for that.  In the Uniform Branch, people receive a medal of some form of bonus and in the Security Police, they were compensated from the Secret Fund.  After the Harms Commission in 1989 the situation originated where members would be compensated either from the Secret Fund.  There are people here today who drew that advantage and later used it to promote themselves, however they are not serving any prison sentence for that, while I am and that is the price that I had to pay.

ADV SANDI: Did you know where Mr Nieuwoudt had obtained the money from?

EUGENE DE KOCK: In what specific matter, or is this with regard to all the cases?

ADV SANDI: Were you interested to know where he had obtained this large amount of money that was contained in the bag, did you believe that it was perhaps his personal money or some money he had obtained from his employers for execution of his duties?  Did you ask him such questions as to where the money could have come from?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes.   He told me that he had submitted a false request to Gen Gozo during which he mentioned that weapons had been obtained by means of a contact in Mozambique, for example the ground to air missile originated from Mozambique and I think that the claim must have been substantial.  He told me that he looked after all his people, those were his own words.  Among others he purchased a two motor fishing boat and a Land Rover with which to tow this boat and according to him, he had also purchased a house on the Gonube River mouth.  I cannot tell you what the total amount was and I was also not interested in what the amount was.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much Colonel, thank you Chairperson.

EUGENE DE KOCK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicated Mr Sibanyoni, you would like to ask another question?