Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR MATELA: After having entered Mashengoville I met these comrades and that's when I explained to them that there were White people who were looking for them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What were they doing at the time when you met them, these comrades?

MR MATELA: They were patrolling because there were rumours that there were people who were going to attack  - there were rumours that Inkatha might form part of these people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is this what was said to you again at that meeting where Mr Manong addressed you?

MR MATELA: Yes that's exactly what he said to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Now you have informed these other comrades, what happened to you then?

MR MATELA: I explained to them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And then what happened to you?

MR MATELA: Thereafter I went to my sister's house and I told her about these White people who were travelling in a car, and I told her that I'll be joining comrades because they will be patrolling because of the anticipated attack and this might be possible because of the White people that I met.  And thereafter I joined the other comrades and there I found the comrades beating these White people and I also joined in, in beating them up.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you are saying you met another group of comrades and they were busy attacking and assaulting the occupants of the motor vehicle?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that the same motor vehicle and the occupants that you met earlier on?

MR MATELA: Yes it's the same vehicle.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many people were there all in all attacking these people?

MR MATELA: It was more than 500 to 600 people that were attacking.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you took part in the assault?

MR MATELA: Yes I played a role because we were told that we should defend ourselves should we be attacked.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What did you use in partaking in the assault?

MR MATELA: I picked up an iron rod because in the area people made their own fences and therefore I found an iron rod lying about and I used it.

JUDGE WILSON: Two, three people being attacked by 600
people and you felt you had to join them to defend yourself, is that what you are telling us?

MR MATELA: Yes it's true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For how long did you partake in the assault yourself?

MR MATELA: It might have been two to four minutes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know precisely who your victims were during the assault?

MR MATELA: It seems they are rightwingers because we were told that there will be the Russians and the AWB that might come and we should defend ourselves in case there should be an attack, and I met these White people who were looking for the ANC comrades.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What do you understand by the term rightwing?
What does it mean to you?

MR MATELA: It's referring to the AWB, the rightwingers who are not for the idea of changes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now what made you think that the people in that car were rightwing members?

MR MATELA: They said to me they were looking for the ANC comrades and we knew that the rightwingers and the Russian vigilante group were going to attack people in the location, and I realised that they were the rightwingers.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you told as to why the rightwingers and the Russians would attack you people, the reason for their attack?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you told the reason why the rightwingers and the Russians would come and attack you?

MR MATELA: Yes we were told everything in details in that meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But what ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: You were told at that meeting that you were to be attacked by Russians and White rightwingers, is that what you are saying?

MR MATELA: They said that we should await any party that would came and attack the township and we should be ready to defend ourselves, and therefore I felt they were rightwingers because they came to me and asked me about the comrades, and the fact that they were White convinced me that they were rightwingers.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you said a moment ago that you were told you were likely to be attacked by Russians and rightwingers?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you said a moment ago that you were told that you were going to be attacked by Russians and rightwingers and I think the evidence leader agrees with me, that's what you said, that you were told this?

MR MATELA: Yes we were told so.

JUDGE WILSON: Who by?

MR MATELA: He's our Chairperson Mr Manong.

JUDGE WILSON: Because we have heard, some of us, we have all heard evidence about what Mr Manong said at another hearing, and that was never mentioned.  But you now say that it was the Russians and White rightwingers who were going to attack you?

MR MATELA: Mr Manong didn't tell the truth because he is the one who said all this in that meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Now I want you to explain to the Committee as to whether you were given reason or reasons as to why the rightwingers and the Russians would attack you.

MR MATELA: During the week people came and attacked the people in the township and some of the comrades went to the ANC office and when they got there they explained about that incident that took place in Mashengoville and from there all the comrades, including myself, went to the ANC office to explain about this attack.  And from that office Mr Manong went to the charge office to request the police to request to patrol in Mashengoville.   When he came back he told us that the police said that they don't want to involve themselves in the events in Mashengoville.  And we were also told that there will be different parties that will be attacking.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now is it correct that you left the scene at about 04H00 in the morning to go home?

MR MATELA: Yes I left home at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And at the time when you left the scene the four occupants of that motor vehicle were already dead and strewn on the ground?

MR MATELA: Yes it is true.

ADV DE JAGER: I might have made a mistake but at the beginning he said there were three White people in the motor car.

MR MATELA: No it was four White people.  I didn't realise that there were four the first time I saw them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I said to you when you left the scene the four White persons were already dead, and you were arrested that very same morning.

MR MATELA: I was arrested in the evening.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in your application for amnesty, paragraph 10A of your application where you were requested to state the political objective sought to be achieved, you state the following,
"The political objective was to prevent and secure the safety of the public of Katlehong against the alleged or information that they are going to be attacked".
Now how do you explain the political objective in this incident in which you were involved?  Can you explain to the Committee, in your own words, how do you link this with the politics of the day?

MR MATELA: At that time the White people did not conform with changes and they were against other political organisations.  We wanted equality, disregarding race.  I see my case as a political one, it's because of the meetings that we were attending and the decisions taken there and we were told that the ANC is the only righteous movement and we wanted to govern.  We went to the Municipal offices and whatever documents we had they would tear them up, and thus I regard my case as a political one, because even the executive of the ANC was aware.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now did you believe in the order or the "opdrag" as you put it, as given to you as members by the leadership in the ANC?  Did you believe the order given to you by the leadership of the ANC?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.