Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

ADV DE JAGER: Would this be the same one that C had been at the previous hearing?

MR CORNELIUS: This is correct Chairperson.  This had been Exhibit C in the previous occasion, I just refer you to two passages.   If you can just allow me a moment, from the report of Gen Coetzee, it appears and I will read on page 9 Chairperson, paragraph 2.1.6
"... apparently the idea with this directive (this is a directive that was sent to all the Security Branches in the country), to be able to put the services of this special unit at the disposal of all the Security Branches in the Republic of South Africa."
	That this is so appears from a follow up directive in January 1982, where the Commanders of the specific Security Branches who had to accept responsibility and also the actions of this unit and also for the area in which they were in command, were asked not to use junior officials and the statement I want to make to you Mr Vermeulen is, is it correct that this Unit Commander of these Security Units who asked for Vlakplaas' services, were responsible for actions in their area?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: This is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Would they then have expected that the information coming from this infiltration, would be discussed with the Security Commander?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: This is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: I think I have put it in your evidence-in-chief, you worked on a need to know basis, is that correct?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.    Mr Vermeulen, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further witnesses that I want to call, this would then be the application of Mr Vermeulen.  I would then argue about what I am applying for exactly, in the light of Exhibit D, that has just come under our attention, thank you Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you please tell us what you are applying for?

MR CORNELIUS: I really do not have a base any more, because in this document it is clear that this was a legitimate possession of this weapon, with the approval of Security Headquarters and this took the illegality of it away.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you want us to issue a licence for it now?

MR CORNELIUS: No, thank you.   I understand that this is the basis of my application, that we were in irregular possession, but this document denies it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you say that you want to argue this?  Mr Hugo, do you have any witnesses?

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  With your permission I will call Mr Eugene Alexander de Kock as a witness.  May I ask that he be sworn in.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated.  Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, an aspect that I would just first like to clear up is the document that I referred to yesterday, this would be Exhibit
 A, is the statement of Mr Dlamini and you will recall this is the person who had said that they had arrived there with a kombi.  I was a little bit unreasonable with Mr Nofomela in this aspect that I just accepted that it was the case, when this incident took place, when the people were shot and Mr Dlamini does say on page 3, I saw that this morning -
"... on the 21st of May 1986, at 2am ..."
	and then he continues and he tells the story.  But from this document it would appear that he just got the date wrong, but the rest of the incident, he describes exactly as it happened and I just was a little bit unreasonable with Mr Nofomela yesterday.  I don't think it makes any difference to the point that is addressed here, but I want to please put this on record just for completeness sake.

CHAIRPERSON: We will note it like this.

MR HUGO: Mr de Kock,  you have heard the evidence and you have also had insight into some of the documents, can we please start at the beginning, you at the stage when this incident happened, you were Commander of Vlakplaas for about one year, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You had received information or you had a request that your contingency, the Vlakplaas contingency, should be sent down to Durban, could you please tell us how it happened that Vlakplaas got involved with an operation or operations in Durban during the period that we are talking about now?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, before this occasion, on several occasions we had been working in Durban, basically on a monthly basis and we also sent a group of people here.  With this specific incident with our deploying, I received an order from Brig Schoon one morning very early, that the whole unit without exception white and black, had to go to Durban as soon as possible, immediately, and it was as a result of a further two black Security policemen I think, both of them were Warrant Officers, and the Counter-Terrorism section of Taylor, who had been killed, and I think in a question of seven to fourteen days, three of his people had been killed or shot dead in two separate incidents.

MR HUGO: Can I please refer you, maybe this will help us to move through the evidence quicker, could you please look at Exhibit D?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I have it Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You will see that this is an application that had been made for the issuing of an AK47 rifle, this was done by Nortje and it was approved by Brig Schoon, is this more or less the date on which you had received the request to come down to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And did you have knowledge of the application for this AK47 rifle?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, Mr Nortje made a proposal to me that if we want to infiltrate someone, that we have to prepare for this and be prepared for this and that we had to get an AK47 to take along, that he can take along.  As a result of the hurry that we were in, it wasn't typed out, I said write out an application.  I went along with him to Brig Schoon, Brig Schoon approved it and myself and Sgt Nortje went down to Capt Drury at Security Headquarters on the 6th floor and he was in command of the stores and an AK47 had been drawn there, from Security Headquarters' weapon store where there was about 150 to 200 AKs with magazines and ammunition.

MR HUGO: Very well, the weapon had then been gotten hold of, and was it put in your vehicle or was it left in the possession of Mr Nortje?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was left in the possession of Mr Nortje.

MR HUGO: I accept that the largest part or everyone at Vlakplaas, shortly afterwards departed to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, they departed as soon as they were ready and they had gotten their stuff together.

MR HUGO: At what stage did you depart yourself?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I departed later on in that day, I drove on my own, because I had to finish all the administration, the people had to be booked out, reports had to be kept up to date and I departed later.  Quite a lot later, I think I only arrived here that evening late.

MR HUGO: You heard Mr Nofomela's evidence and he said that he had been your driver, and that he drove down with you to Durban, what do you say about this?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, no, on occasion I did drive on my own and in this case I cannot remember at all that Mr Nofomela had been with me.  I had to get as many as possible black members down specifically because the white people could not go into the black areas, they do not speak the language, they are white.

MR HUGO: Very well, and when you arrived in Durban, did you then go and report at the sleeping quarters at the C R Swart police station?