Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR STANDER: The reason for this question is the principle of statute of limitation, or actions.  You don't have to respond to this, this is just for your information.
	Mr Chairman, I'll now move to item 7 in which application is made for amnesty and this is the occurrence involving Matthews Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he also known as Zwelinzima?

MR STANDER: That is in fact so Mr Chairman.  I believe the correct pronounciation is Zwelinzima.  My learned friend wants to put to us the correct pronounciation.

ADV MEMANI: No, it's not the correct pronounciation.  You remember that this is the man who came here and said his name is in fact Zwelinjani and his elder brother is Zwelabanthu.

MR STANDER: I want to ask permission to address him as Matthews otherwise it might cause confusion.
	Mr Motsamai, am I correct in saying  - and that if you don't know, please tell us, that due to the injuries suffered by this person during this shooting incident, he's totally disabled and unable to work?

MR VISSER: How does this witness know this Mr Chairman, with all due respect?

CHAIRPERSON: From the files the security police keep.
	Do you know?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean I know what is happening about him?

MR STANDER: The question is, do you know that this person has been totally disabled for any kind of work?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know.

MR STANDER: You won't be able to dispute this, not so?   Do you know who the person is who pulled the trigger, who fired the shot, who shot this man?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The policeman who shot him, I don't know his name but he's now deceased.

MR STANDER: Is it a Mr Mogashani, do you remember?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I think it's him, he shot himself.

MR STANDER: I understand the reason he shot himself was due to his conscience because he had injured this person so severely.  Can you give any comment or if you can't, just tell us?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The reason which made him to commit suicide was because of this Mzuzwana case,  that he shot Mzuzwana with a gun.

MR STANDER: I understand that there was - a claim was made against the South African police for an amount of R20.000,00 in compensation.  Do you know anything about this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I heard about that.

MR STANDER: Just before the so-called fatal shot was fired, had he been held down by two other policemen?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean two policemen who shot?

MR STANDER: Two policemen had been holding him by his arms when the third one, Mr Mogashani shot him.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Can you make you question clear so that I should understand?

CHAIRPERSON: Was he being held by two policemen when he was shot?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was trying to get off them but two policemen were holding him.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I'm going to put questions around an incident which doesn't appear at all in the amnesty application but with your permission I will continue because this person had been referred to me by the Truth Commission and I was instructed because it also deals with a house which had been attacked with petrol bombs and my instructions are that Mr Motsamai also knows about this.  May I continue with this?
	Mr Motsamai tell me, do you know a person called Maria Manchwe?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I know her.

MR STANDER: Is it a fact that this person was the tea maker at the offices of the security police?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that's correct.

MR STANDER: Am I correct in saying that her house was also bombed with petrol bombs?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that's correct.

MR STANDER: You are not asking for amnesty regarding this incident?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I met Mr Belato, he's a staff member of the Truth Commission then I took him to that house.  That is the time when I was moving around with him to make investigations, identifying houses which I attacked then we'd go in - that is then that I remembered that in Parming this kind of a house was attacked by us with two petrol bombs.

MR STANDER: But I understand that this woman had no political affiliation at all.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: She didn't have anything to do with politics but she was retrenched from work or dismissed if I'm correct, because she would take the information which was happening in the office about the assault and torture of people then she would give it to people - she'd give it to the informer and then the informer informed the other office, then she was dismissed because of that incident.

MR STANDER: But the question is, you are not applying for amnesty regarding her and I don't understand it.  You don't have to answer this if you don't want to.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I've already told my counsel, then I said to him there are many issues which I started to remember during these hearings, then I'm asking amnesty for that incident.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I will leave this aspect there.  Mr Memani would certainly address you about this later on.  I'm moving to item 10.  This is the bombing of the house of - I'm sorry, just a moment while I correlate my notes.  Item number 12 in fact.
	Mr Motsamai, do you know the damages that you caused there?  This is where the minister's house had been attacked.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'm not sure of the damage which has been caused by the bombing.

MR STANDER: Was your intention in bombarding this house to destroy the entire house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When we went there to attack, when the petrol bomb hit - when the house was enflamed, it may happen - it is possible that house may burn down.

MR STANDER: Was it the intention to destroy the whole house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say it was the intention to destroy the whole house.

MR STANDER: Am I also correct in saying that you acted in such a way that the identity of yourselves would be completely hidden, to such an extent that the person who suffered damages was completely unable to identify the persons or person who had caused the damage?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, he wouldn't know.

MR STANDER: Is it also correct when I say that it would probably be the first occasion where the person would in fact have become aware of who was responsible for the damage to the house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, he couldn't know who were responsible for the attack.

MR STANDER: Was it also part of your instructions to hide your identities as far as possible?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, which of your clients is involved in this incident?

MR STANDER: Samuel Mkwena.  This is item 14 on the list which I have handed to you.  You will also see that I've marked in pro-amica because this is in fact how I'm appearing for him.  Mr Chairman, I'll now move to item 13 and this is the item in which amnesty is applied for on behalf of quite a number of people.
	Regarding Mr White Mohapi, can you tell us at all how many times he'd been arrested?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Many times under the Internal Security Act.

MR STANDER: And according to you the reason was his involvement in COSAS?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, he was the Chairperson of COSAS in the Free State.  Again he was a member of the National Executive Committee.

MR STANDER: Is it also true that on occasion he'd been fired upon more than once?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know that.

MR STANDER: Do you know of any occasion on which shots were fired at him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I don't know.

MR STANDER: Tell me please, was he assaulted in the same way as the way you described it this morning?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR STANDER: I understand that on occasion he'd been held - he'd been detained for a weekend with a would in his side, a gunshot wound in his side.  Do you know about this?