Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR NOFOMELA: As I said, Sir, the way in which I worked at Vlakplaas, I saw that the battle which we were fighting against the ANC was the side which I was on was that I was fighting black people, assisting white people to fight black people and what annoyed me was that he should have called me
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a kaffir and that was one of the reasons why I stabbed him.

JUDGE WILSON: What were the other reasons?

MR NOFOMELA: The other reason was that while we were wrestling with this firearm there was a possibility that he would have shot me with it and I realised that if I could stab him it is possible that he could drop the firearm and when he dropped the firearm - by the time he dropped the firearm I had already stabbed him several times and I saw when he fell that he had already died.

MR MARAIS: Would you say that through your training and work at Vlakplaas you became accustomed to violence and killing?

MR NOFOMELA: I would start by saying that before I even got to Vlakplaas I was never involved in any violent activities and I have never been to gaol.  All this violence is what I had learnt at Vlakplaas.  When I got there I did not know anything about such violence.

MR MARAIS: When you went to the farm of Lourens, was it ever your intention to kill somebody or to steal?

MR NOFOMELA: As I had said, the intention was to go and steal, we were not going there to kill anyone.

JUDGE WILSON: You had a knife and a gun with you, is that so?

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, those were weapons which I carried with me at all times, that stayed with me at all times.

MR MARAIS: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: What weapon did Johnny have?

MR NOFOMELA: He did not have anything.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, may I ask for a short adjournment. There is a document I would like to peruse first before I
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put questions to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge it was fairly common for white people to call black people kaffirs during those times.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was not the first time that you heard a white man call a black man a kaffir.

MR NOFOMELA: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was not the first time that you were called a kaffir by a white man.

MR NOFOMELA: It was the first time a white man had called me a kaffir to my face.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... to be deeply insulting to black people, am I right?

MR NOFOMELA: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And as far as I know, black people never accepted to be called a kaffir at any stage.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nofomela, on page 27 of your application you state that you committed the murder because you were motivated and caused by the political indoctrination that you had received as a Security Policeman.  What was this indoctrination that you are referring to in your application?

MR NOFOMELA: In the sense that when someone did not agree with you it meant that that person, according to the indoctrination, was that that person could be dangerous to you and that you should regard that person as your enemy.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What in fact motivated you to kill this person?

MR NOFOMELA: I am not saying that it is that, I am saying it was part of the indoctrination.
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SISI KHAMPEPE: But you've made reference to the motivation and the indoctrination, the indoctrination which you received from the Security Branch.
 
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JUDGE WILSON: What did you think the reaction of a farmer would be when he found two strange people approaching his farmhouse in the evening?

ANSWER: I did not expect to find him there so I did not anticipate any reaction, we expected to find the place empty.

JUDGE WILSON: Why?

ANSWER: Because we were going there to steal and we would not have gone there with the intention of stealing knowing that there are people there.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman the evidence of this witness was not that it was in the evening and also from the record it appears that it was in the afternoon around 4 o'clock.

JUDGE WILSON: What time was it?

ANSWER: I said that it was during the day although I do not know what time it was.

JUDGE WILSON: ...on his farm during the day?

ANSWER: Because of the way Johnny Mohani told me he knew that they used to go away during the day and he knew that they were not supposed to be there.

JUDGE WILSON: They used to go away during the day, what sort of farm was this?

ANSWER: Actually it was a plot it was not a big farm, it was more a plot.

JUDGE WILSON: A plot that he lived on?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nofomela would you agree that you did not kill Mr Lourens in the course and scope of your duties as a security policeman?

ANSWER: I would agree.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact your superiors never authorised you
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to kill any white person who called you a "kaffir"?

ANSWER: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you say the training and work that you did as at the Security Branch was aimed at fighting the enemies of the State, you in fact are referring to people who were hostile to the Government you were serving?

ANSWER: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact Mr Lourens represented the society which belonged to the NP-led Government, he was a member of that society, he was protected.

ANSWER: Yes Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He therefore was not a political threat?

ANSWER: No except that what he said to me annoyed me by calling me a "kaffir", apart from that, no.

SISI KHAMPEPE: During your stay at Vlakplaas had you ever heard white security policemen referring to the black targets as "kaffirs"?

ANSWER: No Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: They were never referred to as "kaffirs"?

ANSWER: I never heard, it's possible that they did but I never heard.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are hearing that name for the first time so to speak?

ANSWER: It was a common word which I had heard quite often, specifically being used at Vlakplaas being used amongst the whites talking to each other but it had never been used, directed at me it was the first time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You had heard this word being used by the white security officers at Vlakplaas, so it wasn't much of a shock for you to hear another white person referring to you as a "kaffir"?
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ANSWER: I said that I never heard them use the word, I heard other people use the word and it was used, and I knew that black people did not like the word as much as I didn't want it either.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...at Vlakplaas when you say you heard other people use the word, you are not referring to white officers at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: No Ma'am.

JUDGE WILSON: You said you heard it used by whites at Vlakplaas, do you remember telling us that a minute or two ago?

ANSWER: It was probably a mistake, I did not hear whites at Vlakplaas using it, I heard whites generally using it towards blacks, referring to blacks quite often.

JUDGE WILSON: You make quite a lot of mistakes don't you?

ANSWER: I have often seen white people in arguments or fighting with blacks calling them "kaffirs".

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...as you've made reference to additional remuneration you received when you were working in places like Durban and you said that you had to get hooked into the suggestion to rob Lourens when the suggestion was made to you by Johnny Mohani.   What were you referring to, I probably did not understand your evidence properly, did you actually get rewards... (discussion aside between members)...thank you I now understand I've just been corrected.

UNKNOWN: Am I correct in saying that you knew the farm where the Lourens' lived?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

UNKNOWN: Did you know that he was living with his brother there?
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