Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-19

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately due to some misunderstanding we weren't told that you're ready and waiting.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chair, I appear for Mr Schoon today, as Mr Prinsloo said yesterday.  I call him as the next applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems as though we've got a change of representatives on our right, so please put yourself on record.

MS SAMUEL: As the Chairman pleases.  I must apologise for not introducing myself earlier.  May name is Ms Samuel.  I now appear for the family of the victim.

CHAIRPERSON: In the old days I would have said we've not seen you.

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Schoon, your application is in the bundle from the official form on page 34 to 35(b) and this incident is from page 36 to 37 and the political motivation is from page 40 to page 47.  Is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Schoon, you were, during the time when this incident took place, a member of the National Party, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were a member of the S A Police.  Where were you stationed during 1980?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I was stationed at Josini, I was a Branch Commander of the Security Force.

MS VAN DER WALT: And your rank at that time?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Warrant-Officer.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have now heard the evidence of the other applicants and where it relates to you, do you agree with it?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You've also attended an investigation where one of the members who presides at the moment, was also part of the investigation in terms of Section 29, where you were interrogated on this matter.

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it's also bound into the bundle, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears on page?

MR LAX: 74.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: How did it happen, Mr Schoon that you became involved in this incident?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I can't remember the dates precisely, it must have been in the beginning of 1980, it could have been later as well, but as I say, I can't remember specific dates, then one day I got a phone call from Sakkie van Zyl.  He was a Lieutenant at the time.  I said in my previous questioning that I was stationed at Pietermaritzburg, but he was there before that, he was at Ladysmith at the time of this incident.  That is correct, as he said.

MS VAN DER WALT: So he called you?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes, he did and asked me to be ready to help with a sensitive operation.  It was telephonically, he did not spell it out, all of it.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you would not have discussed details on the phone?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you met each other at a certain place, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where was this place?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I've heard the testimonies of the other people.  I was under the impression that it took place at the farm Leeuspoort at a house, but it could have been in Josini at my office.  That is also possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you there meet Messrs Visser, van Zyl, Carr and Gold?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you given any instructions there?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: It was said that I had to help with the elimination of a trained MK member.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you given any specific instruction?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: The thing was discussed, the way in which it would be done and the place where it would be done and it was my suggestion that an island in the Josini dam be used, as a safe place.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were told that the body was going to be exploded with explosives?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: The matter was discussed and it was decided that explosives would be used.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you then do?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: We went together to a farmhouse on the farm Leeuspoort at Candover in the Ngotje District.  We went there.  I cannot remember that I saw the deceased while he was still living, it is possible, but I did not communicate with him, I can't remember at all talking to him.  On the contrary, I don't even know what the man's name was.  In my amnesty application I saw for the first time that his name was Scorpion, that was put in by my representative in the various amnesty applications, to identify the application.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was it then that the facts, during consultation, were given to the legal representative that you were given the name Scorpion?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also interrogated about this and it was in accordance with Section 29 and you also added that it was the only incident that you were involved in with these men, Gold, Carr, Visser and van Zyl?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is it for that reason that you know that it is this specific incident?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then went to fetch a boat, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: For what was the boat to be used?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: The boat was to take the people to the island where the explosives would be used.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you go to the island?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I went to fetch the boat, I came back to the side of the dam where I met with the people, that is van Zyl, Carr, Brig Visser and Mr Gold.  They got onto the boat plus the deceased, who was covered in a piece of tarpaulin.  I took them to the island in the middle of the dam, not quite in the middle of the dam and there Gold disposed of the body with explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you help in any way?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I can't remember clearly but it is possible that I did help.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you left, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember whether there were one or two explosions?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I remember only one, I can't remember a second.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you do this on the instruction of Brig Visser?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I can't remember who did the talking, I believe it was Visser because he was the senior person present, but whether it was van Zyl who spoke, that was representing Visser so he was the man who had the say there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you have any information with regard to the deceased, as to why he had to be eliminated?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I did not ask questions, Visser just told me that he was a trained MK member who was arrested in Soweto.  I now hear that he was, there are contradictions as to where he was arrested.  It can be that I just deduced that he was arrested in Soweto, because Visser was present, but I assumed that he had been arrested in Soweto.  I didn't ask the question, I believed it was correct and I just fulfilled my orders.

MS VAN DER WALT: You didn't know this person at all and the only assumption that you make, that we can make, is that you had no feeling of hate or revenge or anything?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you gain personally from this action of yours?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Absolutely none.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you carry out this order?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: We were at that stage in a state of war and I believed it was right and a senior officer who was a Divisional Head Commander gave me an instruction, I could not refuse.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you asking this Committee for amnesty for any offence arising from these actions that caused the death and disposal of this person?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And any delict, delictual liability that may arise?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.