Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR BERGER: Yes, I said to the witness that he gave both answers and the first answer that he gave was the one that it is possible, and he's just confirmed now it is possible, but that's not the way he recalls it.
	In that first incident, Sergeant Gollach, is it correct, this is the Wanderers Street incident, is it correct that the ANC guards that you saw were on street level, you didn't see any guards on the balcony level?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct, I didn't see anybody up there.

MR BERGER: Then after that incident you moved back to the corner of Plein and King George?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were you standing with Sergeant Potgieter at that corner?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, it was me and Sergeant Potgieter, and I think Sergeant Skippers as well.

MR BERGER: So you're saying there were three policemen on that corner?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, I can remember seeing Sergeant Skippers there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: No, there was Potgieter, himself and Skippers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR GOLLACH: No Chairperson, Potgieter, Skippers and me.

MR BERGER: And you - did you see Sergeant van Reenen and van Greunen moving up King George Street towards the marchers in De Villiers Street?

MR GOLLACH: Yes Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You also saw Sergeant van Reenen and Van Greunen trying to keep the marchers away, from coming down towards where you were standing, correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You also saw that the marchers paid absolutely no heed, and knocked Van Reenen and Van Greunen out of the way?

MR GOLLACH: I didn't physically see him being bumped out of the way, I just saw the group continuing with their movement ahead, through Van Greunen and Van Reenen.

MR BERGER: What you saw is Van Reenen and Van Greunen being engulfed by the crowd?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You never saw Mr von Eggedy, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Not from where I was.

MR BERGER: And at that time you were standing amongst the ANC guards?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: In fact you evidence was that you were right inbetween the guards.

MR GOLLACH: Among the guards, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You had a clear view of Van Reenen and Van Greunen running up the street and what was happening to them at the intersection?

MR GOLLACH: Up until that point, yes.

MR BERGER: And yet you never saw Von Eggedy at all?

MR GOLLACH: I didn't see him there.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that at the critical time you were actually not on that corner Sergeant Gollach?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage I was on the corner.

MR BERGER: Were you on that corner when the guards on that corner opened fire?

MR GOLLACH: When the ANC security guard with the AK47 began to shoot I moved to the entrance because I saw that more guards were coming out, and I told people to move back because of the guards that were coming out.  I was there just as the shooting began, just as the guard began shooting.

MR BERGER: Your colleague Constable Skippers saw one of the marchers coming down from De Villiers Street towards Plein in King George with an AK47, you didn't see that either?

MR GOLLACH: No, I didn't see that.

MR BERGER: According to your evidence the ANC guard with the AK47 fired, as you put it, a "sarsie skote".  You said maybe 5 or a few more shots.

MR GOLLACH: It was only a few shots which he fired.

MR BERGER: You then went round the corner towards the entrance of Shell House;  you went to look for Major Els, you couldn't find him;  you then went up Klein Street, you came up again west in De Villiers Street to the corner of King George and De Villiers, am I right?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You never saw Sergeant van Reenen in De Villiers Street, am I correct?

MR GOLLACH: Sergeant van Reenen in De Villiers Street?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR GOLLACH: When I came back on the other side, Sergeant Skippers, he was in De Villiers Street.  I didn't see Inspector van Reenen in De Villiers Street, I didn't notice him there.

MR BERGER: You were watching the crowd at the time that the ANC guards opened fire?

MR GOLLACH: I was chatting to the ANC guards all the time, then I saw the march move up through Van Reenen and Van Greunen.  That's the last time I saw them.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that if they had attacked, and I can give you the words of Mr von Eggedy, if they had been brandishing their weapons on full charge in the manner of an attack, are you saying you might not have seen that?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage I didn't see it like that.

MR BERGER: Thank you Sergeant, I'm done.  Thank you Sergeant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sergeant, I don't know whether you actually understood the last question, would you have been in a position to have seen if the crowd was on full charge from where you were?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage they weren't storming.  When they moved past Van Reenen and Van Greunen, that was the last time that I saw them, they weren't storming, they had just gone through the intersection, they weren't storming, they didn't come running, they were simply toyi-toying.

MR BERGER: Sorry Chairperson, if I may just ask two more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry Sergeant Gollach.  When you were standing at that corner, you never saw or heard any shot strike the window of the shop a few metres in front of you?

MR GOLLACH: No I didn't experience it that way while I was standing there.

MR BERGER: You never saw anybody fire any shots into the underside of the parapet on the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR GOLLACH: No, I also didn't experience it in that way.

MR BERGER: And you never saw any of the ANC guards fire warning shots?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: Either into the air or into the underside of the parapet?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw it?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR DORFLING: Thank you Chair.  With your permission, may I just with reference to the witness's evidence in front of the inquest, refer the witness to page 4184 of the record from line 6 onwards.  	Sergeant I'm going to read you a piece of evidence, I'll read it paragraph by paragraph, upon which I would like for you to indicate to the Committee whether that evidence is correct or incorrect, and if it is incorrect, in what respect it is incorrect.  This is with regard to the inquest.  You refer on line 6, page 4184 to the position of the marchers when you saw them for the first time
"Waar was hierdie groep toe u hulle die eerste keer sien, hoe ver nog?"
		---  "So 10 meter sou ek skat voor die kruising in King George en De Villiers aan die ander kant van die kruising."
You're referring to the northern side of the intersection on King George and de Villiers, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that paragraph correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Ja.

MR DORFLING: "Op hierdie stadium het Sersant van Reenen en Sersant Van Greunen vooruit gehardloop in King Georgestraat in die rigting van hierdie optoggangers?

WITNESS: Ek self, Potgieter en Skippers, ek weet nie van ander lede wat daar was nie op die toneel.  Het die kruising oorgesteek op die sypaadjie van Shell House, waar ons van die sekuriteitswagte gesien het wat daar bymekaar gekom het.  Ek het gemerk dat Van Reenen en Van Greunen het vooruit gehardloop na die kruising toe waar hulle optoggangers ongeveer in die middel van die kruising probeer keer het, probeer wegwys het.  Hulle het aangehou loop, die optoggangers, deur Van Greunen en Van Reenen.  Op daardie stadium het die ANC wagte wat hier by ons gestaan het vir ons gese dat hulle gaan skiet op hierdie optoggangers."

MR DORFLING: Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Can you firstly tell us how many guards there were?  Approximately 10 or more, 10 tot 12, is that correct?