Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I just want to put on record that during the intervention I was instructed by Oupa Makhubelo, also a victim, via the Legal Aid Board and I am from here on also going to appear on his behalf, being a victim in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Makhabala?

MR STANDER: I believe it is Makhubelo, Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What is his attitude towards the incident in question?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, you will find it on page 27 onwards.  You will recall it is the matter wherein comrades were taken back from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and they thereafter tortured here in Bloemfontein, that was the very first matter that Mr Ngo was testifying about this morning.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Would he confirm that?

MR STANDER: He would confirm that, yes.

ADV MEMANI: (cont)
	As the  Chair pleases.  Now Mr Ngo, we were dealing with page 44 and you had just finished telling us about Nino Gint's incident.	And you were about to tell us about the Rebecca Mothokoane and Sandra Mathabathe.  Now, may you proceed with the application in respect of Rebecca Mothokoane only.
	At this stage Mr Chairman, I may mention that my instructions are to withdraw the application in respect of Sandra Mathabathe which is narrated on page 45.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be noted that the application in respect of the attack on the house of Sandra Mathabathe has been withdrawn.
	This attack allegedly took place in 1988.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Mr Ngo, you may proceed with the application as it is contained at page 44.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was at 3 am in the morning.  Myself and Hendrik Bokaba and Dannyboy Selahla, we drove to that four roomed house in B3, section A in Mamelodi, where Rebecca was staying, armed with two petrol bombs.
	When we arrived at that house, myself and Bokaba we entered into the yard.  We looked through the window to see whether we will be able to recognise Rebecca inside the house, where she was sleeping.  	When we looked through those rooms, we saw three women lying in that room.  Hendrik decided that we should throw the petrol bombs through the windows and then ran away afterwards.
	The next day when we were looking around, investigating about the similar petrol bombs, we realised that Rebecca's arms were burnt.  And the property in that house was destroyed even in the sitting room.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo, on whose instructions did you burn the house of Rebecca Mothokoane?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The instructions were given by Mr Loots.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Ngo, you then at the bottom of page 45, gave certain information about the victims.  That is the last paragraph.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What is it in that paragraph?

ADV MEMANI: The last paragraph, do you want to repeat it for the record, where you say the house telephone number was where ...  I want you to read that evidence into the record.  The last paragraph at page 45.

ADV DE JAGER: It is the bottom of page 23.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Am I supposed to read which paragraph?

ADV MEMANI: The house telephone number ...

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Okay.  I found that the house telephone where the two victims could be found, or to be contacted, that was Louisa and Nino Gint, to confirm the following.  That was 012-8054288.
	The residential address appears on the Transvaal Directory book of 1987 towards the end of 1988.  To contact those two, Sandra it was easily to be available, because she was known in (indistinct).

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: So Rebecca, why was she identified as a victim, rather why was she identified as a target?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I have written that as one of the victims, that is how I explained according to the Investigating Officers, where to find those people.  That was the impression which I received from the Investigators from the TRC.
	That is how I explain it, why she could be named the victim, but for us she was a target.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Why was she identified as a target, what did she do?  Was she a teacher?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: She was in the similar group with MYO, they were together with Nino Gint in the same group.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What is this MYO in full?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mamelodi Youth Organisation.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: The next incident is incident 2.12 on the pre-hearing meeting which is the attack on a security guard.  Now this is page 46 of the paginated record and it should be 24 on your papers.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I see it.

ADV MEMANI: Now, will you tell the Committee about this incident.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was while we were working at night, when we were doing night duty.  Myself and together with Hendrik Bokaba in Mamelodi West.
	Hendrik stopped next to a certain person who was wearing a uniform of the security guard.  Then he said he is one of those people who are offering security or those who are providing a safe accommodation for MYO members.
	Then he said we should try to kidnap him so that we should be able to interrogate him.  I left the car and I called him.  He saw Hendrik Bokaba and he started to run away.  I pulled my gun, I shot with many bullets whilst we were chasing him.  Then he ran to a certain complex which is Papama Bottle Store.
	He fell among people there.  Hendrik said we should leave him, then we have already shot him.  The following day whilst we were observing the situation, we found that he was admitted at Day Hospital which is only for day care, health centre for Mamelodi people.	And nothing was investigated against us in regard to that incident.

ADV MEMANI: Now, this concludes this application Mr Chairman.  The next application is that of ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, you are asking for amnesty in respect of what here?

ADV MEMANI: It appears to me to be attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: All that appears at the offences set out in the pre-trial conferences is attack on security guard, but you say should be attempted murder?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you shoot at the security guard?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The objective was that we wanted to detain him, then when Hendrik alighted from the car, since he knew Hendrik, then he started to run away, then we started shooting at him.	The purpose was that we should detain him, but he ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: So you decided to kill him?  Why?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You said we were shooting at him as he ran away in the dark.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And what weapons were you using?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: 9 mm guns.

CHAIRPERSON: If you hit someone with those, you can kill them, can't you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: How many shots did you fire at him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I shot only twice.

CHAIRPERSON: And Hendrik?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was shooting from behind, so I am not able to tell how many times did he shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot at this man who was trying to run away?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Normally when we want to arrest a suspect, if he runs away, we wanted to arrest him because of a certain objective.  We used our own common sense, how can we find, we found him, then we said if we can shoot him, then we would be able to detain him.

CHAIRPERSON: He was wearing a uniform of a recognised security guard company, wasn't he?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The reason for him to wear a uniform, didn't have any value to us.  He would wear that uniform and at the same time he would do things which we would regard as illegal, that is why I had to shoot him because I didn't want him because he was a security guard, I wanted him to be detained that he should be interrogated as Hendrik said we should detain him.
	The fact is that we wanted to arrest him or kidnap him and interrogate him because he was providing a safe accommodation for MYO members.