Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR VISSER: The normal tolerance, what would you expect, what would you advise as a dressmaker, your client who comes to you and ask you to make a dress, how much are you going to allow, what tolerance?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, if you are going to put elastic on the dress, that you can work at least on 10 or 15 cm, if you are going to pull it in and it becomes like a gathered dress which is, in her case, because of the wide hip measure, it probably was also to compensate for that, to find a waist that fits comfortably and it is not too tight around the hips.
	That is why this style is actually very popular with people with wide hips and with small waists, because it immediately compensates for the disparity in the two.
	I mean 15 cm is definitely, I wouldn't say is unusual to add on for this style of dress, for elasticised.  I mean at this stage, we also don't really have the full figure.  If that waist was slightly dropped in any way, it would have had to be adjusted as well.

MR VISSER: So the short answer is 10 to 15 cm?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Most definitely.

MR VISSER: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Any questions further arising?  Another question Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Sorry Chairperson.  We have been told that the person had a fairly large backside, that was one description we got today.  Would, bearing in   mind the waist sizes and all that sort of thing, would that be consistent?  Might it be consistent, are you able to offer any opinion?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think so.  It is really a difficult one to say, because some people have a big backside, some people have a flat backside and wide hips, so it is quite a difficult one, or they might have a big tummy and no backside.  It is always the circumference which is measured.
	The body in the round, it is quite difficult really to say.

MR LAX: No, fine, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that prompt any questions arising?  No?  Ms Fick-Jordaan, thank you very much, that concludes your testimony, we appreciate what you have done, thank you.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, will that be the evidence for today?  I see it is twenty to five?

MS THABETHE: That is the evidence for today, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow, will we be commencing with the evidence of Dr Naidoo?  At what time will we be starting tomorrow?  Nine o'clock or half past nine?

MS THABETHE: Half past nine?

CHAIRPERSON: Half past nine?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, I did indicate before taking the brief, that I will not be ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I remember, is tomorrow the day.

MR SAMUEL: Tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: You will be excused.

MR SAMUEL: However, if I finish early, I will come in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you will be excused, Mr Samuel, and I am sure it will not have any direct impact on Mr Mbane, the evidence of Dr Naidoo.

MR SAMUEL: Chairperson, if the matter falls through, I will come through.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I know it is late in the day, but may I detain yourself and the Committee a moment longer?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR VISSER: Because of questions that originated from a question of Commissioner Lax, and which I took up with Dr Aiyer, there may be, there may be some talk of going to that grave and to dig deeper, to see whether there are other bodies in that grave.
	I just want to place on record, Chairperson, that if that should happen, we would like to be present.  That is the one thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know anything of that, but ...

MR VISSER: Yes, the other matter Chairperson, that we would raise is with this whole issue of identification, all sorts of things, paper trails, and graves, etc, we are beginning to think that it is important for the Committee and ourselves to go to this grave site and go and have a look at what is going on there.
	We think that the matter is of great importance obviously to the relations, and we believe that it may be a bit of trouble to go there, but we should make that sacrifice and do that, in case something, we haven't been there, in case something arises there, which may be of assistance, one way or the other.

CHAIRPERSON: Not joining issue with you, Mr Visser, but what do you, would we expect to see there?  Look, I've got no idea what happens at an exhumation, whether they fill in the hole again or whether they leave it open indefinitely.
	Because to drive out passed Stanger, to look at a piece of ground ...

MR VISSER: It would be mere speculation on my part to advance any argument to you at this stage, but we might check for example the sequence of the numbers of the graves.  I don't know what we will find there.  I am just suggesting it Chairperson, that if you feel that it is not worthwhile to go out there, well then I will ...

CHAIRPERSON: Unless there is some sort of real, I wouldn't like to just go there and we see that the grave next to it is number 342 and the other one on the other side is 344 and it has been filled in, and we are just looking at a piece of ground.  That of course would be a waste of time.

MR VISSER: I take your point Chairperson, I just thought that...

CHAIRPERSON: But if there is some sort of reason, but I take the point that if there is to be any further digging at the grave, that shouldn't be done without prior notification to the Committee and then we can inform all the parties prior to that happening.
	We don't want it just done unilaterally by somebody.

MR SAMUEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, that is assuming that another body has not been placed in the grave after the exhumation?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well, we don't know anything like that, Mr SAMUEL.  You know, that is why I say, but there shouldn't be any further digging without prior notification to the Committee and if the Committee gets such notification, we will obviously inform all the parties concerned, prior to ...

MS THABETHE: Can I interpose Mr Chair.  Would maybe my learned friend like one of the officials who are responsible for the graves, to come and give evidence, rather than us going there?  And then, if it is still in contest, then we can take a trip there, because I think this can be remedied?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I don't think I am going to take a trip there just to go to, just for the sake of going to Charlottedale cemetery.  You know, I will go there for some stated, specific reason if you think it is worthwhile.

MS THABETHE: What I am asking Mr Chair is, would my learned friend prefer that Mr Naidoo, because we've got a Mr J.B. Naidoo who is responsible for the graves, who assisted our exhumation team, who pointed out the grave, would he like him to come through and be cross-examined, if there is something in dispute?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I will make it absolutely clear, I don't prescribe to the TRC how the officials should do anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Okay, if you want to call Mr Naidoo, you can do so, but you know, all I am saying is, that as I am sitting here now, I haven't been convinced that we should go to Charlottedale.  I don't know any good reason.

MS THABETHE: I don't wish to call Mr Naidoo, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: I am not disputing anything about the graves.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning, at the same venue, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS