Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-19

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: No.  I think I will have to clarify this.  There are political organisations which were known in our country, so one will decide ignorantly or not ignorantly that the organisation that I feel that it's better, it can serve what I want, is this organisation.  One might decide on PAC, others might decide on the ANC.  So what I'm trying to say, I didn't know Bongani's position, but I knew that he was a staunch supporter of the ANC and to be a supporter it's not automatically being a member and holding a position in the organisation.
	It's just like Chiefs and Pirates.  I am the supporter of Chiefs, but I'm not involved in the procedures and things of Chiefs.  As a supporter I can do something wrong there in the name of Chiefs and say that no, I did this in the name of Chiefs, while I am not a Chiefs member, but being only merely a supporter.

ADV BOSMAN: But Chiefs only has one captain, so who made Bongani the captain that day?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I agree, Your Worship, that Chiefs has one captain, but now that was soccer, this is the struggle.  One in anything that happens in our townships, one can take decisions, one can become a leader immediately on the spot because of the political situation at that present moment.

ADV BOSMAN: You may continue, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	The people who spoke at the meeting, who addressed the crowd?  How was that decided, did people just spontaneously get up and say what they wanted to say or how was it organised?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: People didn't speak in that particular meeting spontaneously, it was not an anarchic thing this thing, there was no anarchy in that church.  What was happened there, the chairperson or the master of ceremonies who is in front of us there, will call somebody and say "Can you come in front and address the crowd and say whatever you want to say to the crowd".  Like myself, I went in front and addressed the crowd and I talked specifically about Mr Loza who was detained and tortured in Bishop Lavis.  So I spoke about Mr Loza there, who died in the '70's, between '77 and '78 he was buried in NY5.

MS PATEL: Can you perhaps, I mean we weren't there, can you tell us how Mr Mpondo decided who would be the speakers at that meeting?  How did he choose them?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Raymond Bongani, as I have said he was the master of ceremonies of that particular meeting.  He will call a person to come in front and speak with the people.  As I have said that was a simple thing.  If you are gathered in a place, in our - let me quote about my own situation because we might not understand this.
	In our situation, in our own townships, we do things in a manner that befits us or befits that particular situation or event at that time and people will be as much as disciplined as they can.  So the master of ceremonies will call people, or before the opening starts, the person will come to you "Do you want to say something in this meeting?"  Like myself, Bongani came to me while I was standing outside the church that "Look broer(?), you are going to talk here, you see.  So I agree and I said "No, I will talk".

MS PATEL: Can you tell us, if you can remember, who else spoke at the meeting, who else addressed the crowd?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I have said that I addressed the crowd and the name that I've just mentioned here, it was Diba, Vincent Diba.  I think he's accused number something.  It's there in the court records.

MS PATEL: Can you recall what the content of his address was, what he said?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: What I recall about Diba is that Diba made the poem and that poem is titled, it says "When the white men came, our fathers became ..." and then it dwells on and one to other paragraphs.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Was there a decision taken at the meeting about what course of action should be followed from that point?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: In the meeting, or during the meeting proceedings or the service, because the word meeting will mean something else, in the service, during that service there were no decisions taken there, a decision was taken outside.

MS PATEL: Outside where, Sir?  What do you mean by "outside"?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: When I mean outside I mean outside of the building which we were.

MS PATEL: And what decision was that?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: A decision which was taken was that we need to do something.  As I've mentioned earlier, that an old woman was beaten and we felt that we are young, we need to defend our fathers and mothers, they can not be treated like this, so we said we must go outside the meeting, discussing as many people you say.  Said that we must go and attack government cars and in particular any white man's car which is found in the vicinity or in these areas must be attacked.
	For your own information like in Terminus Road, when this thing happened a white man was delivering some goods in Silwane's shop, a man who is late now, that white man was attacked and was being defended by Silwane.  Silwane because he's highly respected in the community, he was playing for Cape Town Citizen, which is based in Nyanga East, he managed to stop the crowd.  And of which - at that time I was not part of that particular that attacked that white man who was delivering some goods to Silwane, but he managed to defend and call the crowd to calm down.

MS PATEL: Is this the same day or is it a separate incident entirely?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Let me say that in that particular day many things happened and some of them, they were not even mentioned in court you see.  Like the thing of the police, the soldiers who were involved there, it was never mentioned.  We fought tooth and nail with those police for a period that can take us a week from that particular day, which police were unable, even with the soldiers, were unable to penetrate Crossroads at that time.
	After the death of Mr Beeton they were unable.  The way they penetrated Crossroads was through their spies and traitors.  But physically fighting with our own bare hands and our own stones the police I can assure you, they were unable to enter at Crossroads for a period of a week because that was our centre.  We were using the Klipfontein Road and the Lansdowne Road.  So it was very impossible for them.

MS PATEL: Okay.  From what I understand you're saying there was a decision taken after the service that government vehicles should be stoned.  Was that the full decision or was there a decision taken as to who would do what or, was there any planning around this decision?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I think I will have to explain again.  The decision was taken outside of the church that we need, because of the spontaneous action that took place in Nyanga where a white, an old woman of 79 years of age was beaten and this was a spontaneous - there are spontaneous decisions, there are planned decisions where you sit down and plan thoroughly and look for the consequences.  This type of decision didn't care for consequences, we said just that we are going to hit the white, the government cars and white people who are found within the vicinity.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You've stated in your affidavit to us that the crowd was stopping buses, all government vehicles and other unauthorised motor vehicles.  That's on page 6 of your supplementary affidavit.  The government vehicles that you referred to - it's on page 6, the top of page 6, Sir.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Top of page 6.

MS PATEL: Ja.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, I'm listening.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Those buses and government vehicles that were stopped, do you have any idea whether there were any white people in them?