Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR VAN WYK: What I want to know from you, your observation was that from the foyer at the corner of King George and Plein Street and up in King George towards de Villiers, there were ANC security personnel or ANC members or guards that were deployed there.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: That is correct.

MR VAN WYK: What attracted your attention specifically in respect of this crowd, were they the same as the others, or was there a difference?

COMMISSIONER: Sorry, at which point are your referring to Mr Van Wyk, (inaudible) upstairs, he might have seen it at a later stage.  Just be a bit clearer about what stage he saw it.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Commissioner.  Let's take it firstly in the boardroom, if we can take it at that stage.  Was there any difference between this crowd and the others that you've seen that morning?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: As far as I'm concerned, yes.  There was a difference and the difference is that crowd approaching from de Villiers was approaching, from my observation, very quietly towards Shell House from de Villiers towards, I mean from the Wanderers Street coming up to King George on de Villiers, quiet and to me that indicated that this could be a group that is bent on a surprise attack if I may use that.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand you correctly that this group, because they were so quiet, they were not dancing and chanting and singing that is the difference.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: At the time that we observed them from that distance, yes.

MR VAN WYK: And then whilst you were in King George Street, were they still quiet?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: The time span - I did not spend an hour or a minute at the pillar.  A few seconds after I was at that pillar this group approached, charging so I'm trying to explain to you that when I saw them, when they were pointed out at that distance they were approaching quietly, but from the corner they charged so if - I'm not saying this but I felt like I was ambushed because I fell into fire.

MR VAN WYK: Can I just return to what I asked.  Were they still quiet, although they were running, were they still quiet?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: When they were charging, no they were not quiet.

MR VAN WYK: At the corner of King George and de Villiers Streets, can we accept that you didn't see them doing any war dances.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: When I was there they approached charging.  No I didn't see that, I didn't see - I never had the opportunity to observe them do any war dance, I came at a time when I fell into their fire.

MR VAN WYK: Also whilst you were in the boardroom observing this group, you didn't see this crowd moving quietly and doing war dances, would you accept that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Moving quietly and at the same time doing war dances?

MR VAN WYK: That is my question.  You did not see them doing war dances.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: When I was on the 18th floor no, that's why I'm saying they were coming quietly as bent on a surprise attack.

MR VAN WYK: You say quietly.  Were they walking?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes Chair they were walking.

MR VAN WYK: Up straight?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes Chair up straight, disciplined, quietly.

MR VAN WYK: Now you have mentioned that you had shot three to four shots with your pistol.  How far were these people from you, these marchers, when you fired the shots?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Very poor in estimation, but I'll try.  If I may try and point, probably at the ladies and they were coming and I was retreating so I can't estimate, I don't know if it's two metres, I don't know but that kind of ... (intervention)

MR VAN WYK: Let me help, let's put it again twelve to fifteen metres as you testified at the inquest.  Will you repeat that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I may repeat that, but I can't if you ask me how long is twelve to fifteen metres, I can't give you that estimation.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But as far as you can recall, is the distance that you've just indicated roughly what you think it was?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes sir.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Beea being a trained soldier, surely you couldn't have missed anybody at that distance.  Would you agree with that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: The possibility exists.  It doesn't take a trained soldier to aim all the time.  We have what we call zeroing of weapons and I think you know that, that if your gun is not zeroed I may aim at you but shoot somewhere else.  That's a possibility.  I, we just had guns new.  I am not too sure if those guns were zeroed and if they were not, as a trained soldier the possibility that I could have missed exists.

MR VAN WYK: Well let's clarify this point Mr Beea.  Can we accept that the shots that you fired, that you aimed directly into the crowd when you pulled the trigger.  Is that correct, is that your recollection?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I shot at the crowd, yes.

MR VAN WYK: Now I understand your evidence today that you say you might have fired a shot or shots whilst these people were retreating.  Do I understand you correctly?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: The possibility exists but I'm not saying they were retreating because I didn't see them.  I'm saying the possibility exists that I could have given the ballistics evidence.

MR VAN WYK: The picture you have in your mind and your impression and your memory is that these people were coming towards you and they were not retreating.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: That's correct.  That's the picture that I have.

MR VAN WYK: And ever being asked to give your explanation under oath, that is the explanation that you would give that they were coming towards you and not retreating.  That is your version.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes that's correct.

MR VAN WYK: I just want to read a short portion from the evidence that you gave at the inquest and I would request you to mention to the Committee whether you confirm that and whether you differ from that today.  Mr Chairman I refer to page 6918 of the record, 6-9-1-8.  I read from line 17, it starts:  Ms Voster, she asks you:  "How many shots did you fire then", the reply:  "Three to four".  Next question:  "What happened after you fired your first shot, what were the marchers doing?", the reply:  "They were still approaching".  Do you confirm that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes I do.

MR VAN WYK: And that is still your version today?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes it is.

MR VAN WYK: Next question:  "And the second shot?", reply:  "They were approaching until I - this is my recollection - until I turned back into Plein Street".  Is this still your version today, do you con ... (intervention)

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes it is.

MR VAN WYK: Next question:  "So what are you saying, when you fired your last shot, were they still approaching?", reply:  "As the people were coming and as I was retreating I was shooting and what I can remember is that at that time when I was turning in my head, they were still approaching".  Is that still your version today?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes it is.

MR VAN WYK: So on your version that you confirmed today, you exclude positively the possibility that you could have shot anybody in the back.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Do I exclude it?

MR VAN WYK: I'm asking you so on your version and what you present to this Committee is that you positively exclude the possibility that you could have shot anybody in the back.  That is your version, is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: No, I don't exclude the possibility, I'm saying the possibility exists that one of the bullets could have struck a person.  That possibility exists.

MR VAN WYK: Could you perhaps explain or how is it possible that you can shoot anybody in the back whilst with your version, all three of the shots you positively see this crowd approaching you.  Were they running backwards to you or what was happening on that day Mr Beea?