Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR MPONGOSI: He was shooting towards the ANC, but he was targeting them directly, he just fired a deliberate miss.
	We went down towards Magwaza's place, and we realised that these people were intent on fighting and we requested that he should consult everybody that belonged to the IFP and summon them down to Magwaza's place.  And I also left, my house was further up but on the side.  I went to my place, picked up my firearm, and came back to Magwaza's place.  And we sent some boys from the Magwaza family to summon everybody to that spot because we had realised that these people were bent on fighting.  The group accumulated until we were a big group, but Magwaza was not there at the moment, he had gone to town. There was only a few of us in the shack.  And we waited until Sithole arrived.  He joined us in the waiting.
	And after a while, the time was now around four or five o'clock in the late afternoon, but which Magwaza came.  He was coming from town.  And the group was growing around his shop.  And when he came, and as we were narrating the story to them they then explained that we can see the ANC coming.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mpongosi, who explained to you?  You say they explained, who explained?

MR MPONGOSI: Magwaza.  He explained that yes we can see these people, they are coming, it looks like they are armed with spears.  They outnumber us.  And we were talking and we realised that it was now getting difficult.  Magwaza went into the house, came out with a firearm and gave it to Sithole, and he had his own.  We were talking, arguing there at that point, suggesting that instead of these people reaching us here, because we had children around, we suggested that we should move out and meet them at the grounds, we should not allow them to get nearer, they will injure us, the women and the children.  And the Jukskei River was full, it was not safe.  We should die in the battle, let us go and face them.
	Indeed, we went to the sports grounds and they kept on coming.  We could see them.  They quite outnumbered us.  They had arrived.  And we realised that, or should I say we went towards the end of the grounds.

MR DRAHT: The group you are referring to now as they, is that the ANC group?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes, the ANC group that was coming.
We were on the upper end of the sports field.  They actually started shooting from a distance.

MR DRAHT: How many shots did they shoot?

MR MPONGOSI: They did not shoot once, they shot several times incessantly, there was a brief pause, and they continued, and they also pelted us with stones.

MR DRAHT: Could you see in whose direction did they shoot?

MR MPONGOSI: They were shooting at us, because they were shooting such that they also hit the shacks which we were using to hide.  By that time we had fled.  We had left the grounds and we were lying down around the shacks, and they were up there.  And it dawned on us that these people were indeed fighting.

MR DRAHT: Did they do anything else except shoot?

CHAIRPERSON: He said they pelted them with stones.

MR DRAHT: My apologies, Mr Chair.

MR MPONGOSI: Yes, they were shooting us and pelting us with stones at the same time.
And when we scattered, we dispersed, trying to avoid the stones and the bullets, using the shacks as shield.  And after the shooting, there is one guy who was next to me who suggested that these people had run out of ammunition, let us attack them.  We shot back, such that they ran away.  There's one other group that meant to come and attack us from the side.  That group disappeared too.  We fired at them such that they fled.

MR DRAHT: Who in your group fired at them?

MR MPONGOSI: After they had fired, we also fired.  I was shooting as well.

MR DRAHT: How many shots did you fire at them?

MR MPONGOSI: I had a fully loaded 38, and it could load six.  I exhausted all the six rounds of ammunition.

MR DRAHT: And did you direct your shots directly at them, at the group?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Did you see anybody else in your group firing?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes I saw some people who were shooting.

MR DRAHT: Do you know their names?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Who were they?

MR MPONGOSI: Zwane was shooting, he was shooting from behind a shack, but I could see him.  But I could hear that he was shooting from his spot.  And insofar as Sithole is concerned I saw him going into a shack that was roofed, a shack that was still under construction, and he apparently was shooting through the window, and Mbatha was on the other side of Sithole and I could see him shooting as well.  Magwaza was far away from me and I could not tell whether he was shooting or not, but yes I did see him with a firearm.

MR DRAHT: At that stage could you see anybody was struck by the bullets?

MR MPONGOSI: I was shooting at this group of people.  The one person whom I saw falling down is one.  We were running and I saw him fall down, and when I went through the other side of the shack I saw one body that was lying down, and I was pursuing this one group that was carrying an injured person, a group that was running towards the PTA offices.  I was trying to pursue them.

MR DRAHT: Why did you try to pursue them?

MR MPONGOSI: I was pursuing them because we have a quarrel with the ANC.  They wanted to kill us and so I wanted to kill them as well.

MR DRAHT: What happened then while pursuing them?

MR MPONGOSI: I pursued them and just before they arrived at the PTA place, even 'though it was a distance from that place, there was one voice that beckoned me back, saying, "...Leave them alone, they had fled now."  I came back.  And when I came back another group of our people was gathering at Magwaza's place.  I was coming in the company of others.

MR DRAHT: What happened then?

MR MPONGOSI: At Magwaza's place we gathered, even 'though we had dispersed earlier on as the shooting was continuing, we sat down and it was dusk at the time.  One could only see silhouettes of people from a distance.  And it started raining and we had to take cover from the rain, but we had an argument as to how many of us were injured, or how many of them were injured, and some were saying these people are still coming back.  And we decided to wait because we feared that they might come back.  We sat down.

MR DRAHT: Where did you sat down?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question.

MR DRAHT: Where did you sat down?

MR MPONGOSI: We sat down at a place that is an open space.  It is not a sport field, around some shacks, it's a space between shacks.  We did not get into the shack but we just stayed outside.  And as we were sitting there a Hippo came.  I'm referring to this very big police vehicle, the army vehicle actually.  I then left for my place.
	And it became clear that the police were surrounding our group, arresting them.  I went to my house and only came back the following morning to establish how many of us were arrested, and I learned that a number of our group, or people in our group, were arrested the previous evening.  And I was made to understand that there were many IFP members who were still to be arrested.  And I learned that these people, ANC people, had vowed to come back and continue with their attack.  We had to come together again and wait.  And as we were waiting soldiers arrived in a helicopter.  And when we went down to the shacks near Jukskei River, that was on a Sunday now, that is where we were arrested and brought to the shop, Magwaza's shop, where we were ordered to lie down.  We spent a while there, people were milling around, we were then taken into vans.  Sithole and others came at the time when we were at the sports field.  Sithole, Mbatha, were also arrested,  I presume at the river, and we were taken to a place called Kew near Alexandra.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mpongosi, how many people were approximately in the IFP group?

MR MPONGOSI: You talking about people who were arrest, or?