Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: ... (inaudible - end of tape) ... once.  I might have indicated yesterday that I do not recall who it was and I won't know who did I really shoot and then I pushed him towards the bottom of the hill slope.

MR AMEEN: I'm going to put it to you that the three people, two of them are survivors here, were ordered to get out of the car and were ordered to run towards the old Shawella beer hall, a disused beer hall.  They were ordered not to look sideways and they were ordered when they reached the wall to sit with their backs facing the wall, that is they were facing you.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Repeat your question sir?

MR AMEEN: At the spot where the two survivors and one of the deceased was going to be killed, that is the three people that were in your group destined to be killed.  When you reached the spot where they were going to be killed they were ordered out of the car, they were ordered to run towards the old Shawella beer hall, a disused beer hall, they were ordered not to look sideways and when they reached the wall they were ordered to sit with their backs towards the wall, facing you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was not in that group.  I was in the group that went to the hill, they were shot and they fell to the bottom of the hill slope.  I don't know (inaudible) second shooting took place.

MR AMEEN: May I just clarify something with my clients (indistinct)?  Thank you Mr Chairman.  I just clarified something with my clients, they say that there was - one of them was shot once, he survived, the other was shot three time, he received three bullets in his body, he survived, but he was also shot a further seven time, seven bullets were fired at him but those bullets did not hit him and that they are adamant that they were made to sit the way I described to you earlier, their backs towards the wall of the Shawella beer hall, facing you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I have explained which group I was in.

MR AMEEN: Was it the first group or the second group?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was ... (inaudible)

MR AMEEN: That is correct, they will say it was the first group.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: They say they were blindfolded, his hands were tied up, I would really urge them to tell the committee how they came to know about that they were in the first group.

MR AMEEN: At that point they were not blindfolded, their hands were not bound, they were not blindfolded.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: When were their hands tied up?

MR AMEEN: Their hands were not tied and they were not blindfolded.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Well I would not dispute that because it's only yesterday when I learned about the blindfolding issue and I remember there was one in the dining room who was blindfolded but I am saying I was in the first group.

MR AMEEN: After the shooting was completed they heard you congratulating yourselves on having done a good job?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I dispute that.  I do not know whether the committee would like me to expand on this?  Yesterday I did explain that I trained in Libya for 11 months and I went up until I was a general.  I trained more than 200 people, I know a reaction of a firearm, if I shoot you with a firearm, whether you are wearing a bullet proof or not, you will react and if a person had been shot without a bullet proof on he would not have heard that.

MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Hlasa are you saying you didn't congratulate each other?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not see a reason why we would shoot at people and to wait, we would be - I remember after shooting I went back to the car and my comrades shot and they followed.  To stand there and congratulate ourselves is - nothing like that happened.

MR AMEEN: I want to take you back to yesterday's testimony.  At some point in the course of your evidence you mentioned that there was anger on your part, that there was anger.  Can you recall that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I recall that.

MR AMEEN: And that this was at the point when the youths who were killed and the two survivors had been brought in for interrogation.  You used words to the effect that if you participated in the interrogation, something would happen.  Can you recall that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: Can you expand a bit on that, what did you mean when you said that if you would participate something would happen?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I explained my position as an individual.  I said I could not tolerate the killings that were happening anymore, now what held me was the court of conduct of AZAPO.  I have told you already that there was this principle of democratic centralisation.  Even though I was an individual and not agreeing with what the majority were saying because they were outnumbering me, I would have ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: We are at the point when the boys are being interrogated, the youths who were killed and the two survivors are being interrogated.  You are very angry and you've told this committee that if you would have participated in this interrogation, something bad would have happened.  I want you to explain what you meant by that something bad.  Just confine yourself to that.

MR MALAN: Mr Ameen, sorry, my recollection and my notes are a little different.  His reference to his inability to tolerate was advanced as a reason for not going in and participating in the questioning.  He said there that when they arrived he stayed outside, they arrived in the two cars, one of which was his, he stayed outside and he cleaned the oil and he didn't want to go in because he said I knew I would not tolerate it.  I'm not sure that we have the same time, I may be mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Taking the lead from Adv Malan, what would you not have been able to tolerate at the time that the youths were being interrogated.  You remained outside, you said you would not have been able to tolerate.  What would you not have been able to tolerate?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It would be difficult to explain what is it that I would not tolerate.  We are not the same emotionally and I felt that I should not go in.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me tell you how we understood you, to save time.  We understood you to convey that you didn't want to go in there because had you gone in there you might have been very angry and perhaps harmed them or assaulted them or done something terrible to them, that is how we understood you.  Are we right in so understanding you or are we wrong?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: While we're at this point Mr Ameen.  You arrived there simultaneously with the youths, the six victims arriving there because in your evidence yesterday you said you put them into two cars, the Mazda and your Chev.  You say you had to clean, the car was dirty, you had to clean the oil therefore you did not go in.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is the main reason that held me outside.

MR MALAN: Just a follow up question on this.  And for the whole time that the interrogation took place you remained outside, you never went into the house.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.  If there was anything I wanted inside the house I went in, for instance soap, even eating.

MR AMEEN: Two organisations were at war.  People who had harmed your organisation, these youths, who alleged to have harmed your organisation were being interrogated and yet you busied yourself with cleaning oil in a car.  How long did that take you because this interrogation lasted for a good few hours?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not recall how long it took me but it was quite a long time.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN

CHAIRPERSON: Even after finishing with your car, after you'd finished cleaning your car, you nonetheless did not go to go and interrogate them?