Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, if you are going to pass on to another question, can I just ask one question in relation to this.  Mr Moringer, you say you were in contact with Mr Mzwaiba for quite some time.  Is it the situation that you ended up having some trust, some confidence in Mzwaiba as a result of your ongoing dealings with him?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, I think our first contact actually happened in I think it must have been 1988, through then Gen Charles Sebe.  As a consequence of this, we were planning a joint operation where I was involved, where Charles Sebe and his people were involved and where the Transkei Military Intelligence was involved, which objective was to overthrow Lennox Sebe.  During this period, and I don't know off hand how long this whole operation, planning took place, I was frequently in the Transkei, we spent time there, we were training people there and during all this period, the person I was dealing with, was Colonel, then Major, Mzwaiba.  So we established call it a personal trust, but definitely a working relationship, which is based on trust.

ADV SANDI: Did you say you were training people in the Transkei, what were you training these people in?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At that time we were training the people for a coup in the Ciskei, to overthrow Lennox Sebe.  This was in 1988.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe before you pass, Mr Mbandazayo, I am sorry, on page 6, Mr Moringer, on a question did you benefit in any way, financially or otherwise, you say
" ... there was no financial benefit or any other benefit to me.  On the contrary, I partly financed the operation myself."
	You financed the operation of the abduction, is that so?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, no, I did not finance the operation, but at a certain stage, the people who were here, were running out of money, and I put it, subsidised, put private money in there.  Maybe the formulation is not hundred percent, what I was trying to say is this, I didn't gain anything, but if you take the bottom line, I actually put money in.

MR SIBANYONI: You parted with money?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: You parted with about how much Mr Moringer?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: How much?  I wouldn't know, it wasn't a major amount, but I don't know.  It was the odd time for petrol or various things.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  If I may pass, Mr Moringer, it is just for clarity, this question of mine, let me pass the abduction stage and go at the period when you had problems now after it transpired that you were involved.  You went to, you were told to go to the Transkeian Consulate there and you came to Transkei and you were protected by the Military, you were given a safe house and you started the lottery - would I be correct, is it correct that at the time you started the lottery, then Colonel Chinga was the Minister of Police?  When he came back, he came to the Minister of Police in Transkei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, this is correct, but this was not something which at that time, was even in discussion.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, no, I accept that but what I am trying to say, at the time you started the lottery, he was the Minister of Police?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Can I - at the time where we tried to do a lottery, the lottery was never started.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, when you tried to set up the lottery, he was the Minister of Police?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is my last one, is it not because of that that now the papers came up with this idea that the reason you were involved is because you expected to get something in return, and that is what you were trying to get?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: It could very well be, however, the abduction of Mr Mbotoli took place at least six months before that day when Colonel Chinga became Minister of Police, and at that time, nobody knew that he might even at one stage, become any member of the Military Council.  But six months down the line, and I think the decision that he was called into the Military Council, took most probably place three, four weeks before he actually went down there, so there was no correlation at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  The last question Chairperson, let me put it this way, will somebody be incorrect to assume that it was a sort of a reward that you were authorised to set up a lottery because it was after the incident of kidnapping Vulindela Mbotoli, even if it was after a year or after six months?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I would, I didn't see it that way and I don't see it that way and one thing also, and this is not, no insult meant, I have been living in Johannesburg most of my life, and I would never volunteer to take up residence in the Ciskei or Transkei, Umtata, I rather stay in Johannesburg because this is where business is.  I had to go to the Transkei for reasons to avoid being arrested.  I was sitting down there, so that by itself was not a voluntary step and until I was down there, I had no intention whatsoever to do any business down there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that was all I wanted.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Ndengezi, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

MR NDENGEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Members.  Before I would put any question, I would ask the Honourable Members to allow me to take instructions, just for about five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, we will have a short adjournment, if you can just let us know when you are ready, Mr Ndengezi.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndengezi, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MR NDENGEZI: May it please Your Honour, I have got no questions at all.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NDENGEZI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have three questions for Mr Moringer.  May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

UNKNOWN: Mr Moringer, page 7 of your application, 11(b) you state that
"...  the instruction was issued on or about January 1991, to the best of my knowledge during a meeting held in Umtata at the offices of Colonel Mzwaiba, 11th floor, Botha Sichau Building.  The order evidently emanated from Colonel Mzwaiba."
I want to know from you whether you were part of this meeting?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: (Microphone not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you part of this meeting that took place on the 11th floor of the Botha Sichau Building, during or about January 1991 - that is the meeting that you refer to in paragraph 11(b) of your application?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I was not, to my knowledge I was not present at that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what do you mean to your knowledge?  Are you saying you might have been present, but you can't remember or were you not or were you?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: If, also it was written, is it my submission, I am not quite sure now if I meant at the time that the overall instructions for the operation, or the instructions to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can just read 11(b) yourself and then the question was, were you present at that meeting that you referred to in that Section, were you physically present?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At that meeting at Umtata, I was not present.

UNKNOWN: You testified that the whole operation took about three to four months.  Did you have any personal contact with Colonel Mzwaiba or anybody from the Military Intelligence about the operation, the planning of the operation, personal contact?

MR MAZAHAM: During this period?

UNKNOWN: During the three months to four months period?