Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, my evidence specifically was, after he had put in his application and after it had been approved, I would have contacted Shaw.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, that's how I understood the evidence but the questioning - you will remember that the questioning was on a very hypothetical basis, it was on a line that if this would have happened, that would have happened, if this would have happened, that would have happened and I know now I wanted to object at that stage and I didn't but I should have because it was on a basis which was very misleading.  So, with respect Mr Chairman, I don't think anything turns on this.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: But it is now no longer hypothetical that the applicant mentioned the name of Lieutenant Shaw to him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is so and the evidence of Colonel Loots is that he didn't contact Shaw but he would have contacted Shaw if the application had come through the process Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.   Now the ...[inaudible] which arises from your answers is, why would you contact Shaw after the approval of the application because the application - there must first be clearance and then the application is approved.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I have tried to explain Mr Chair, that division units, regional commanders and unit commanders kept people to themselves to a great extent.  Applications for transfers were not easily approved, that's why I sent him away so that I could determine what would happen with his application.  Would his unit commander approve or reject his application before I could do anything more in the process.

ADV DE JAGER: If his commander - was it necessary that the unit commander would have to approve a transfer?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, he would have to - the approval was with the main office.

ADV DE JAGER: Would transfer be able without an approval?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It could be but it not be the rule, it would be the exception.  Whether or not he was approved, it had to be sent to the main office or head office, head office had the last say.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Loots, my question to you is, why wait for approval before you clear the man?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I don't understand why you ask the question over and over again, I have answered it.

ADV MEMANI: But you did not answer the question.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I told you that the approval is only part of the process, if I had completed all these other things after contacting Shaw and making enquiries, I would in any case have to make a recommendation.  The divisional commander would have to make a recommendation so everything else had to wait according to the procedure I followed, until I got the application to see if it had been approved or rejected.  If it had been rejected I would have done all the other things without any use.

ADV MEMANI: But how could an application for the employment of a person in the security branch be approved without it first being ascertained that he's a proper candidate?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, I specifically refer here to the recommendation as I have told you - the recommendation of his unit commander, is he willing to do without this man or not.  It would be the exception and not the rule.  If his commander had said that he can't work without this man and his application was not recommended, it was unlikely that he would have been transferred from unit 19 to security.

ADV MEMANI: On what basis could the unit commander refuse that he be transferred to security branch?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Personnel shortage in the divisions, in regions and in units.

ADV MEMANI: But we know that Mr Ngo actually worked with security branch.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: In Bloemfontein according to him yes, but not for a second in Northern Transvaal.

ADV DE JAGER: If he had not applied, would it be possible for him to be transferred?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, with negotiations but he still would have had to put in an application to make it formal, that is how I see it.

ADV MEMANI: Did you speak to his unit commander at unit 19?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, I didn't

ADV MEMANI: But you were in desperate need of a man and here was a man who had impressed you and you did not contact his contacts in Bloemfontein and you never spoke to his unit commander?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that that is nonsensical, with due respect.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: You can put to me whatever you want to, I can do my work as I see fit, if it worked for me like that.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, it seems that this a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is it, we have a lot more work to get through.

ADV MEMANI: I might ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How much longer are you going to be?

ADV MEMANI: I'm more than pleased to proceed, it was my learned friends indicating to me that they - it's a convenient time but we can proceed until half past 4 I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll continue.

ADV MEMANI: Now, we have heard evidence that Ngo worked at Bloemfontein and he left Bloemfontein for Ladybrand and later he went to Hammanskraal for training and on his return he went to Pretoria.  Now, you - it is clear then that Ngo would not have had intimate knowledge of activists in Mamelodi, do you deny that?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, he had knowledge of persons, not only in Mamelodi but also on national level.

ADV MEMANI: What I'm saying to you is that without Ngo having intimate knowledge of people or activists in Mamelodi - let me rephrase, Ngo having just come from Bloemfontein would not have had intimate knowledge of people or activists in Mamelodi?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Can I answer Mr Chair?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: During the interview with myself, he named - he mentioned the names in management positions like Judge Ngoepe put the question to me, in the same line, the same direction as you now asked the question.

ADV MEMANI: But the point is, how could he have known these things without having been active with the security branch if he came from Bloemfontein?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: He probably made it his business.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just interject here.  Mr Ngo's own evidence was that he was at the training college before that at Hammanskraal and he was for a considerable period already in Pretoria at that stage before he saw Colonel Loots and the evidence was also that he stayed in Mamelodi in the barracks.

ADV DE JAGER: What was the role of the anti-insurgents unit to which he belonged, section or unit 19?  What was the role?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, visible policing in uniform as people are dressed in the back of the hall.  Can one of you please stand up?  That is veld wear or veld clothes.  They wore something,  a star, police star on their shoulders with a police star.  They drove patrols in casspirs.

ADV DE JAGER: What were their functions, were they not riot control?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Unit 19's name was that, there were various names, internal stability, riot squat, reaction unit, unit 19.

ADV DE JAGER: Unrest control is referred to here - unit 19.  If he had worked there, with whom would he have had contact?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: With the commanding officer of unit 19.

ADV DE JAGER: Against whom would he have acted?