Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it - oh you were never charged for these two incidents?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: No, no, I'm sorry, I was confusing them with the Ficksburg issues, I was not charged on these two.

CHAIRPERSON: But doesn't your application somewhere say charges about the farm attacks and a date has been given to when the matter has been postponed?  If you have regard to page 37, no, no ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may explain, it was the Ficksburg incidents in which the amnesty hearing has already been heard and he was granted amnesty and the charges were subsequently withdrawn after he was granted amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  It was a little confusing when I read it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: These two, he was never charged for these two instances Chairperson.  That's the evidence, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I have one or two questions.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khotle, at what stage did you realise that there were farm employees living in the main house?  Was it during your reconnaissance or after you - at the time you went to attack?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: No, I said during the reconnaissance I became aware that this house could be occupied by Africans.  Now at the time of issuing out orders within the unit, I made them aware that it could happen that that house, the owners are not residing in the house, they are somewhere in town and the house is occupied by Africans and I said, as  a precautionary measure, in case it's an African staying in that house, I was not certain, but all indications pointed to the fact that it was Africans staying in that house, I said to them:  "In case it's an African staying in that house, the use of hand grenade would be cancelled and even if we throw the molotovs, during the course they would be restrained: and I did restrain them from throwing the molotovs but it was already late, they had been all thrown.

MS MTANGA: Your decision not to throw the hand grenades and to only throw the molotovs, how was it going to ensure that the people inside, if they happen to be farm employees, would not be injured?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: There are two sides in the whole process of the struggle and there had been instances where Africans were affected.  In this case we - yes, it pained us a lot to notice that the Africans occupied that house and while the matter of the fact was not to really accommodate them there, they were being used as shock absorbers, so to say.  That is why then I'm saying it was one way for them to learn, but then we had to avoid a lesson - we had to teach a lesson but we had to avoid some situations.  In other words, we had to teach them that they allowed themselves to be the shock absorbers on behalf of the europeans.  It was not a question of, that they were intended and at the end it was expected that there should be fatalities, no it wasn't.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khotle, how can you say when a farmer allows his employees to use his main house, he's using them?  Why are you saying that he was using them, when he allowed them to use his house?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: There was an awareness already among the farming community that APLA was stepping up with its activities and most of the farmers decided then that the best way was to live in towns and at the same time using the farm workers.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Adv Sandi?

ADV SANDI: I think I don't have a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely you don't have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes your case with Mr Khotle?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Khotle, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I've just consulted with my brothers.  We don't need to hear any submissions.  That refers to your as well Ms Mtanga.  Does this bring us to the conclusion of these hearings?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle, if you are still - oh yes, you're still here.  The Committee reserves its decision because you have spoken of some applications you have made, you should be aware that the decision should be in writing and it would be done as soon as possible in respect of what it did and it goes for all your comrades as well.  Mr Mbandazayo, we do reserve this one.  You would be informed in due course just to be on the safe side.
	This brings us to the conclusion of the hearings here.  Firstly I want to thank the members of Correctional Services.  They gave us an outstanding service.  I think it's the first that I had such prompt attendance of inmates brought by the Department of Correctional Services.  This is highly appreciated.  Should we call upon you again to do the same, please know that your duties are appreciated by this Committee and you are making our job easier.  I want to thank the Church for having made this wonderful venue available to us to conduct these hearings.  We are very grateful to the church and the personnel they have made available and I must say for also spoiling us with the food we have had.  I think I have picked up a few kilogrammes which I will have problems in shedding.  I want to thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  You had the longest serving in these hearings.  Thank you for your assistance.  Ms Mtanga, thank you for the wonderful work you have done, it was so easy to follow.  Thank you very much and we say, you keep it up and that goes to show that we have people who care in the Amnesty Committee.
	You know there are people you seldom see who are caged in boxes on my left.  They do a wonderful job.  You could remember at some time I would say to the applicants:  "Please slow down because they've got to catch up with you" and we seldom thank them.  I want to say thank you very much.  And to everybody who has shown interest in these hearings, we thank you very much, your attendance is highly appreciated.
	This hearing is adjourned but that does not say you would not have something to eat.  Please have it even though you'll pick up kilos like me.  Charmaine I'm always with you and I'm always saying privately thank you, but let me say it in public.  Thank you very much for your assistance to us.  We're adjourned.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps it's time that we should thank the Chairman too for leading this hearing and the way he did it.  Thank you very much Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you my brother.
HEARING ADJOURNS