Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now if you look at your entry on page 4, you have an amount of R3 852 being paid to Andries, which is van Zyl.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Then on page 16, that becomes R2 903, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then suddenly on page 19 he's getting R9 547,36 plus R701,40.  Are you with me?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Firstly your evidence-in-chief where you said that you thought what might have happened was a double salary, that can't be correct, because even if his gross salary was R3 500 a month, that's more than double his salary.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I have no other explanation for these amounts.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well there is another very real possibility, that that's a bonus for a successfully completed project.

WOUTER J BASSON: But then everybody would have got bonuses.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's right, because Region 6 had done something ...(intervention)

WOUTER J BASSON: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: ... that was worthy of merit.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, I deny that although I don't have a logical explanation for these amounts.  It was not bonuses in terms of production.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The only thing that happened of note that I'm aware of in May 1989, was that David Webster was assassinated.  Do these bonuses have anything to do with that?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, not at all.

MR LAX: Are you going away from bonuses?  Can I just ask something about bonuses please.
	You paid the bonuses?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAX: How did you pay the bonuses and how much did you pay them and in what context or circumstances did they receive them?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not aware of - there might have been production bonuses paid to Mr van Zyl, I can't remember.  Had there been a production bonus, the amount would have been paid in cash to him, just like in the case of the salaries.

MR LAX: But with regard to Region 6 the only bonus that you can even remember paying, might have been to van Zyl.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Nobody else was entitled to one as far as you can remember.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I think so, it was only Mr van Zyl on recommendation of the Regional Manager.

MR LAX: You see Verster told us that the bonuses, production bonuses were in lieu of benefits they had lost previously.  It had nothing to do with production at all, it was simply a way of topping up their salaries to take account of the benefits they had lost.

WOUTER J BASSON: Alright, Chairperson, then it makes more sense to me.  I remember in my application of the Reconnaissance Regiment all operatives were paid a gratification in round about the month of May.  I think it was in the region of R3 400 or R2 400.  It was a yearly thing and this could refer to the same benefit of the structure.  CCB enjoyed the same benefit.

MR LAX: But you're speculating, you don't really know?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I think this may be the answer.  I told you that I can't remember specifically.  I know that you triggered my memory with this bonus and I believe that this could be the explanation for these increased amounts.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Page 18, the entry of the 9th of May.  Well firstly you can confirm that the
"Deon"
with the reference to:
"Bruce White"
indicates that Chappie Maree was originally tasked to work on the Bruce White project.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Deon - who was Deon?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Deon Calitz.

WOUTER J BASSON: Deon Calitz was Calla Botha.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh sorry, yes you're right.  Who's "2"?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I have no explanation for that 2.  I don't want to say that it refers to Region 2, which is Mozambique.  I can't tell you, it's not clear to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But there are later references in your diary to
"Client number 1, client number 2"
and you make references to the possible dates of their elimination.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, this is much earlier, this is long before those entries.  It cannot be related.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you remember all the others, Omar, White, Evans, what's the problem?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's clear, it's written there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But why would you have been using a number as opposed to a name?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I can't tell you, honestly.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something?
	With regard to this diary, the time lapse between you having to look at it again and it being attached, was pretty small.  It was attached by the Harms people and then quite soon after that you were then testifying about it.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR LAX: So it's not as if you'd had a lot of time to forget all the detail, even then.

WOUTER J BASSON: It's true what you're saying.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Page 21, entry of 26 of June.  Maybe I must just deal with various other people whose salaries you appear to have paid and you can tell us who they - which regions they were working for.  Jeff Hailes?  H-a-i-l-e-s.

WOUTER J BASSON: I think he was a Region 7 person.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Richard Collins?

WOUTER J BASSON: Region 7 and Region 4, which was Zambia.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You told the Harms Commission when you were asked about that entry, that R Collins works for Region 6, is that untrue?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I think that you don't refer specifically to the extract.  They fell under Region 6 although it was separated from internal to the external and in that regard I might have said it is Region 6, but it is not internal.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR KAHANOVITZ: What are you saying, that they were paid through Region 6 finances, although they were actually working internally?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.  To make the administration easier for me I put all the external files under Region 6, although they were divided.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did Region 6 have any other members apart from the people who're applying for amnesty here?

WOUTER J BASSON: Who worked internally?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Answer the first question first.

WOUTER J BASSON: Please repeat the question.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Apart from the people who are applying for amnesty here, did Region 6 employ anybody else?

WOUTER J BASSON: Apart from the external project members, no other members.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then you pay salaries to F Wilson, K Lightfoot, A Kotze.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are they Region 6 people working outside of the country?

WOUTER J BASSON: They're specifically members linked to Project Crawler, an external project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Someone by the name of Josh who was arrested in June?

WOUTER J BASSON: Where is ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well does the name Josh ring a bell?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Bernard?

WOUTER J BASSON: I beg your pardon?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Bernard.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I think it's Bernard Heyns, it's an administrative name for another member who joined Project Crawler.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, I don't know if you want the dates where those names appear.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Not.

CHAIRPERSON: But I saw the name Josh in the diary.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.

WOUTER J BASSON: It could be an indirect member, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's on page 13.

MS COLERIDGE: And 21, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Josh (Koos).  13 and 21 you say?

MR KAHANOVITZ: On page 21 if you look you'll see under the heading "Josh", it says
"Arrested .1"

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it could indirect members who worked abroad.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then on the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry.
	Who was Koos?

WOUTER J BASSON: Koos was also an indirect member in the infrastructure of Richard.

MR LAX: And Trev?

WOUTER J BASSON: It was an indirect member of Richard's.

MR LAX: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The office - under the heading "Richard", the office in South-East Lusaka that was to be only damaged, is that something you're not going to tell us about?