Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Our magazines were empty, our guns could only carry eight bullets, we had been told before that this area is dangerous, it was then necessary to leave quickly to report to the superiors so that the right people in this area could go and check.  I think I am responding properly to your question.

MR RAMAWELE: You emptied your magazines after a single shot was fired at you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, we did not know what would follow thereafter.  If you hear gunfire, you don't know what to expect.

MR RAMAWELE: I put it to you that the reason why you emptied you know your ammunition was simply because that was an identified target that you had to eliminate, as simple as that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is not so.  Had it been so, it would not be necessary for us to get an AK47 and show it to them.  We were doing that to win their confidence.

MR RAMAWELE: And furthermore that you were actually travelling on foot and you went, you rushed off from the scene, to the bridge, where Nofomela and others then went over to the police station?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Repeat your question, we left in a hurry to the kombi at the bridge?

MR RAMAWELE: I am putting to you that you then after the shooting, you then rushed and got your transport from the bridge where Mr Nofomela was waiting for you and the other police officers, including Mr de Kock.

MR HUGO: Maybe my learned friend should just repeat the question properly in the sense that he put it to them that they left on foot and I don't think Mr Radebe has had time to respond to that, or the opportunity to respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, will you include that Mr Ramawele and perhaps give it in short bits.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I put it to you that from the scene of the shooting, you left on foot because you also came on foot to the bridge?  What do you say to that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is sheer lie.

MR RAMAWELE: You say Nofomela is lying?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Why would he lie?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Because I was the driver of the kombi, let him tell you what he wants, but I was the driver of the kombi.  I am not telling a hearsay, I am telling you what I was doing.  I remember, if I recall well, there was another kombi, that we left on foot Chairperson, that is a lie.

MR RAMAWELE: According to you the people at the bridge, they knew precisely where you had gone to?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct, because when before - on our way to the camp to get the information, we were with Sgt Willie Nortje, Sgt Steve Bosch.

MR RAMAWELE: I just wish to inform you that Mr Vermeulen testified that they wouldn't have been in a position to assist you guys if you were in trouble, because they did not know where you had gone to and they had absolutely no idea where you had gone to.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, they only followed the map, that is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: But according to him, let me put it this way then, why were they waiting at the bridge?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It was during the violent times in Chesterville, we also took a risk by getting into that area.

MR RAMAWELE: Is it true that you know, one of the ways in which Security Police officers operated was that they you know, in order to avoid being suspected, they would just use a taxi to go to a particular place, then people would not easily suspect?  You as a Security Police officer just get into a taxi, go to a particular place where you want to infiltrate other people, is it possible that that was done?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It never occurred where I was involved to be given a taxi fair or to tell someone to get a taxi.  I only heard about it, I have never experienced it.

MR RAMAWELE: Have you heard about a situation where the Commander or the person in control will drop you off at a particular point and then you will walk to a particular place where you will then try and make your contacts on foot?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes.

MR RAMAWELE: I put it to you that on this particular day, that was the similar situation on this particular day.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is not correct.  I want to repeat that is not correct.  Chairperson, I am telling you what is the truth, I was the driver of the kombi.  I can give you the telephone numbers of one of them who is still alive today, or just call anybody who was involved in this, ask him under whose name was that kombi, he will tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Under whose name was it?  Under whose name was the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It was in my name, it was in my name, sir.  I was in charge of that kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh do you mean that it was allocated to you by Mr de Kock?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what number plates did it have?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It had many registration numbers, but I have just forgotten the real SAP number.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ramawele?

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   You are saying also that Mr de Kock was not there at the bridge?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: He was at the barracks, at the C R Swart.

MR RAMAWELE: How do you know that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Willie told me that they were going to the C R Swart to tell de Kock what happened, he said we can go and sleep.

MR RAMAWELE: Where was Jeff Bosigo?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The people I saw, I gave your their names already, if there were any other people, I did not see them because I went to sleep.

MR RAMAWELE: I put it to you further on that Mr Nofomela actually drove with you guys to the bridge where he dropped you off and you came back and you, and you came back from Chesterville and boarded his kombi and went back to C R Swart police station?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I want to repeat, he is lying.

MR RAMAWELE: And lastly I put it to you also that at the time when you were shooting, you were not acting in self-defence?  You were eliminating those people as instructed?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Nobody instructed us to eliminate them, it was only when we heard a bullet coming out of the window, that we returned fire, nobody gave us permission to eliminate.

MR RAMAWELE: I've got no further questions.
 FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ramawele.  Mr Cornelius, any questions?

MR CORNELIUS: I don't have any questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  Mr Shezi, questions?

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Radebe, what were your instructions from Willie Nortje in terms of going to Chesterville, the specific instructions?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were told to infiltrate the comrades and if they were co-operative, we would be in a position to know who Charles was, and Charles was the person to be arrested.

MR SHEZI: And if they were not co-operative, what was the alternative?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were going to arrest them all, all who were present.

MR SHEZI: Were you told which house to go to, you spoke about being shown the wrong house, which house specifically were you told to go to?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I think there is a number somewhere in the statement, but the second house that I referred to as being the wrong house, is the house we were told that Charles was there.

MR SHEZI: You said you had forgotten the house number?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SHEZI: In your evidence you said you when Shosha had come to collect the AK47, you emptied the magazine and then she took it without any magazine, you just left it there in the kombi, is that so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is according to the instructions, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, you said he emptied the magazine, didn't they take out the magazine and kept it apart from the gun, I don't know whether they in fact emptied, they spoke about bullets separately from the magazine, but I don't know whether they emptied the magazine or whether they had bullets apart from those in the magazine, I am not sure.