Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman in regard to the third applicant, William Mabele, in the light of the evidence which he'll give about his limited knowledge of what was going to happen and his limited role in the matter, may I ask for a short adjournment to discuss the matter with Mr Prior to see whether it is necessary to recall him at this opening?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman we don't need to adjourn.  I mean it's clear from the evidence, which hasn't been challenged, Mr Mabele had a very limited role but I think the act requires that he gives some evidence relating to his role.

CHAIRPERSON: He did play a part in a gross violation of human rights, this was quite clearly resulted in a gross violation.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman in that case I'll then call William Mabele.

DR TSOTSI: Can you please give your full names Mr Mabele?

WILLIAM MABELE: (Indistinct).

DR TSOTSI: Can you give your full names?

WILLIAM MABELE: (sworn states)

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman may I just confirm what language he's going to speak in, he may not have understood the ... (intervention)

MR SANDI: What language are you going to speak Mr Mabele?

WILLIAM MABELE: Tswana.

MR SANDI: Okay, are you going to take an oath or an affirmation, you said an oath?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman as I understand the position he will give his evidence in Tswana.

WILLIAM MABELE: I will take an affirmation.

WILLIAM MABELE: (affirmed states)

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mabele how old are you?

WILLIAM MABELE: I am 30 years old.

MR LANDMAN: During 1987 did you know Mr Joe Kgoele, the previous witness?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes I knew him.

MR LANDMAN: How did you get to know him?

WILLIAM MABELE: He came to where we were repairing cars, he came to repair his car.

MR LANDMAN: When you first got to know him did you know that he was an MK member, an operative?

WILLIAM MABELE: I did not know.

MR LANDMAN: Do you recall an incident when he asked you to drive a car to the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court?

WILLIAM MABELE: I remember.

MR LANDMAN: Can you describe to the Committee what happened the day before you were asked to go to the Magistrate's Court?

WILLIAM MABELE: The day before we went to the Magistrate's Court Joseph Kgoele came to me at home and he collected me and we went to his hiding place.  When we arrived there there was a car, a white Golf.  Because I had a knowledge of certain issues on a car we checked as to whether the car would not stuck and give us problems on our way to the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court.  As I was busy checking the car he was busy putting some few things in the boot of the car.  I saw the things that he had in putting them in the car.  I stood aside and he got himself busy with some wiring.  After that he took me back home.  He said I should not leave home early the next morning I should wait for him, which I did.  He arrived the next morning, he took me to his home.  He gave me his car keys and he ordered me to follow him, to drive after him.  He drove in a Golf and we headed for the Johannesburg Court.  On our way he stopped me, he said I should stop somewhere and he would come back.  He went to park the car and he came back, took the car from me and we went back to Soweto.  He dropped me off at home.
Before he left he said I should watch television during the news and I was not used to watching the news but on that day I stayed at home and when it was the time for the news, I saw the spot where a car was parked and when I realised how things were, I realised that it was the car that was driven by us.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Mabele if I can just deal certain 	aspects of your evidence.  When you saw Mr Kgoele
putting things in the boot of the car, of the Golf and doing certain things to some wiring in the vehicle, what did you think that was?

WILLIAM MABELE: I had a suspicion that there was something going on but I was not aware as to what exactly was happening, but I suspected that something was about to happen.

MR LANDMAN: Do you have any idea as to what it might be that might happen?

WILLIAM MABELE: I did not know what could happen, but sometimes when we were watching television we would get reports of incidents that took place.  My suspicion was to that effect.

MR LANDMAN: What sorts of incidents are you referring to?

WILLIAM MABELE: I'm referring to bomb blasts, there were reports such as bomb blasts at certain places and I was not used to such things, but I just suspected that it might happen but I did not even see the necessity of putting that into the car, to me it didn't sound - he would, at time he would come to me and say I bumped my car please help me and I would help him repair the car, I didn't suspect anything when he put things into the boot.

MR LANDMAN: By the morning of the explosion when you drove the vehicle in the direction of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court, were you aware that Mr Kgoele was an MK operative?

WILLIAM MABELE: No I did not know.

MR LANDMAN: Were you informed of that fact at a later stage?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes afterwards I came to know that he was an operative.

MR LANDMAN: What time in the morning did you drive to the Magistrate's Court?

WILLIAM MABELE: It was in the morning, between six and seven o'clock, if I remember well.

MR LANDMAN: Now precisely what did you see on the television that day?

WILLIAM MABELE: I saw many cars that were destroyed.

MR LANDMAN: Were those cars in the vicinity of the Magistrate's Court were you had drive to?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes they were near the vicinity.

MR LANDMAN: Did you at that stage, after watching television, believe that the vehicle which Mr Kgoele had used that morning was used for the explosion?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes I saw the car and I realised it was the one driven by Mr Kgoele.

MR LANDMAN: What did you do about that, did you speak to him or anyone else about it?

WILLIAM MABELE: I did not discuss this with anyone.  I concluded as to what was happening because he had told me earlier on to watch television, but I never discussed this matter with anyone.

MR LANDMAN: Did you consider going to the police to inform them of what you knew about this?

WILLIAM MABELE: No.

MR LANDMAN: Why not?

WILLIAM MABELE: I would have done the same as well but unfortunately I was not affected.  It happened one day that we attended a funeral to bury one of our students at school and the police arrived and they assaulted us, they shot rubber bullets and they arrested one of my friends and they assaulted him until he lost his eye.  Even to this day he doesn't have an eye.  That is why when I saw that on television I had no doubts because I was happy that the Whites would realise that as Black people we are in a position to revenge.

MR LANDMAN: Did you then, once you became aware of what had happened, support Mr Kgoele in what he had done?

WILLIAM MABELE: I was not supporting him, I was supporting the ANC.

MR LANDMAN: Did you later leave the country for training?

WILLIAM MABELE: Yes I left the country to get training outside.

MR LANDMAN: Which organisation provided you with training?

WILLIAM MABELE: ANC.

MR LANDMAN: Were you told by anybody that you should leave the country?

WILLIAM MABELE: Joseph Kgoele came to me and told me that there was a need for me to leave and he told me that at any given moment it was possible for them to come and pick me up so it was necessary for me to leave because I also wanted to train.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

MR WAGNER: Mr Mabele when the amnesty process was announced, did you yourself decide that you should now apply for amnesty or were you told by someone else that you should apply for amnesty?

WILLIAM MABELE: Shell House did not have a contact with me, they had to contact Joseph Kgoele, that was when I applied for amnesty.

MR WAGNER: Does this mean that you were approached by Joseph Kgoele and told that you should apply for amnesty?