Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: Let's just get clarity, so when you reached Slovo Park, did the casspir come to a standstill and remained there until the casspir left Slovo Park again or did it drive around amongst these shacks in Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Slovo Park is a shack area, the casspirs parked, it did not drive around the area until we were finished shooting at the people.

MR STRYDOM: Why do you say casspirs parked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were casspirs travelling with us as we went into Slovo Park.  I also stated that in Slovo Park, mostly houses are not fenced.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but that is the problem that I have, did you see more than one casspir parked in Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: More than one.   The casspirs also proceeded to Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: How many casspirs did you see in Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, four.

MR STRYDOM: So would you say that the casspirs you initially saw, rejoined when they got to Slovo Park, or regrouped?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, after we had attacked the township, the casspirs regrouped and they followed our casspir.   The other casspirs followed the one in which I had been travelling towards Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Where did this regrouping start, still in the township Boipatong, or only at Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I noticed them on our way to Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Do you have any knowledge how it came about that the four casspirs got together again or was that coincidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know, but I did see them proceeding towards Slovo Park.  I cannot say how they regrouped.

MR STRYDOM: When the casspirs got together, did the people that went along with these casspirs, then all got together so there was one group again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is so.   When we left Boipatong, I saw another group following us, because the streets were parallel to one another, so I saw one other group joining ours.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you testify earlier today that the last occasion you saw the other casspirs, was when you entered the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, that is not what I said.  I said the casspir I had been travelling with, accompanied us, it was driving slowly along the streets.  Peens and others did not enter the premises of those houses, but they remained in the casspir.

MR STRYDOM: No Mr Nosenga, I asked you if during the course of the attack, if you ever saw the other casspirs again, and you said no, "the last time I saw the casspirs together, was when you entered the township."  Now you say you in fact saw the other casspirs just before you entered Slovo Park, they regrouped?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I last saw them as we entered the township, because they split up when we entered the township.

MR STRYDOM: I know you said that, but after that I asked you did you see them again during the course of the attack and you said no, you never saw them again.  Do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was referring to the attack on Boipatong, the township.  You had not asked me with regards to Slovo Park.  When we entered the township, the casspirs split up.

MR STRYDOM: But even according to your own version now, they regrouped before they entered Slovo Park, so you saw them then again in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, what I am saying is that the other casspirs followed the one that I had been travelling in towards Slovo Park.  In the township I did not see them, I last saw them when we entered the township, because when we got there, the casspirs split up according to different streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the situation that when your casspir, the casspir in which you had been travelling, went towards Slovo Park, the other casspirs followed it, is that what happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I am saying, they followed the casspir that I had been travelling in because as we moved towards the tarred road, they followed.

CHAIRPERSON: All the casspirs then went to Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.   I said I saw all four at Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: They were just waiting outside, they did not enter the   Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they waited outside on the road, and we entered the area and killed people and when we were finished, and we were moving towards the Boipatong hostel,  that is where people were shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and then the casspirs also followed you towards the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  There is a question that was not clarified, property was looted.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am not asking you about any items.  I am just asking you about the casspirs.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspirs did join us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The casspirs now are on their way towards the hostel in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  They were turning towards  that road.  That is where other members of our group shot at people in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: But the casspirs were with you as you were going towards the hostel, the mixed hostel where shooting occurred?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there is a main road there.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and then from there, and this hostel is in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Right inside the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, right inside the township.

CHAIRPERSON: And all four of these casspirs went to this hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspirs did join us as we went towards the hostel in Boipatong, and that is where people were shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but were the casspirs at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR LAX: Could I just check one thing Mr Strydom.  After that, did they carry on with you back to the hostel, these casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They left before us, and we followed on foot.  After people were shot at the Boipatong hostel, the casspirs left to Madala hostel and then we as one group followed on foot.

MR LAX: Okay.  So at that time, all the attackers were one group?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LAX: So where did you all regroup as attackers?  At that hostel?  Where, I am not sure?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We regrouped at the hostel and that is where people were shot at, and we regrouped and decided that we must go back to the hotel, kwaMadala hostel.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The time now is just after eleven o'clock, do you still have a lot of ground to cover?

MR STRYDOM: I am going in sequence, so I will move on after tea, if it is convenient, I think I will be busy for some time still, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, very well.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, just after tea on Wednesday, I found that piece of evidence that you were talking about.

MR STRYDOM: About what happened at the hostel?

MR LAX: Yes.  He said very clearly that he did not fire any shots at that place.

MR STRYDOM: I will accept that, I withdraw that question then.

MS TANZER: And that it was the last place in the attack?

MR LAX: Yes, he said that he last fired shots at the shacks, he was quite clear about that.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take the tea adjournment and then return at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Chairperson, just before we proceed, we have made available to the parties involved, three documents.   One is the cell register, which is intended to assist in showing the whereabouts of Victor Keswa during the relevant period.  There are two documents, and then the third document is a register of the visitors of the prisoners.

CHAIRPERSON: What do these documents establish if anything?

MR MAPOMA: The cell register establishes Mr Chairperson, that Victor Keswa was in prison at the relevant time.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevant time here?