Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MR MASANGO: We've got our - we had our own ways of operating.  It was easier to get any other target outside his house than his house.  There is more protection in your house than maybe a friend's house or a girlfriend's house, there's lesser protection there.

MR MOLOPE: You could have tried to have traced him from his own official residence.

MR MASANGO: We had our own ways of operating.  Maybe we could have opted for that one as well but we felt that attacking at his or her own castle, there's all the protection there, that you know yourself.  It's easier to get him at his friend's house or somewhere else or in the street there's no protection there for you.  We had our lives also to protect and our safety too.

MR MOLOPE: Do you know Mr Molope?

MR MASANGO: Really, what do you mean by that?  Do I know him personally as a friend or as a what, what do you mean by that?

MR MOLOPE: Do you know him facially Sir?

MR MASANGO: Yes, I do know him.

MR MOLOPE: Where did you see him?

MR MASANGO: He was shown to me one day at a roadblock just next to the bridge that divides Seshanguwe and Mabopane.  I saw him then.

MR MOLOPE: You're not telling the truth because I heard you saying that the person who gave you the information took you to Molope's house, to his girlfriend and then the girlfriend told you that Molope is not present and he doesn't want people to visit him.  You saw his photos there.

MR MASANGO: Well on the said date ...[intervention]

MR MOLOPE: What you are saying about the roadblock is a lie.

MR MASANGO: On the said date I saw him scantily, on that Saturday and that is why we had to leave immediately because his girlfriend told us that he is around so he doesn't want us to stay there.  He was in the diningroom or sittingroom, it was very scantily.

MR MOLOPE: Can you explain to me what kind of a person is he?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean physically?  What did he look like?

MR MOLOPE: Yes, I mean his stature.

MR MASANGO: It is 12 years ago but he was a heavily built person.  He was a heavily built person from what I can remember.

MR MOLOPE: What was his colour?

MR MASANGO: That you can ask Makhura.  He faced him at close range and then he could tell that.  I can't be sure of that really.

MR MOLOPE: That is why I say you're telling a lie because you said you saw him at the roadblock.

MR MASANGO: It's 12 years ago but I do remember I was shown that that is Molope seated.  They were seated under a tree or next to a police, a green police van. It wasn't as close as we are now because we were passing. They were also underground. I couldn't stay there for hours looking and checking his complexion, checking his height and all those things.  We were also underground, I had to pass there as soon as I could.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Masango, was Molope your target?  And then again you said you saw him at the roadblock, you said you were trained, you were supposed to kill him.  That was a serious issue.  Now you tell me that I should ask somebody else what was his colour.

MR MASANGO: He is here, he will tell you how Molope is.  His girlfriend told us that: "Molope is in the house there, you've got to go", and I sent in Makhura to observe the house and as far as I was concerned, as far as he was concerned Molope was still in that house, his car was there, he was parked there.

MR MOLOPE: What kind of a car was it?

MR MASANGO: Makhura will tell you that, I'm not sure again.  If he remembers of course.

MR MOLOPE: No, Mr Masango, you are telling a lie.  You expect us to forgive you.  We are not here to play.  You are asking for forgiveness, you've killed a person because you said people should go and kill him and that is my father.
	I was listening to you about reconciliation.  For us to forgive you tell us the truth.  Let me tell you, look at me, I'm just like my father.  You just look at me once, I'm tall, I'm bright in colour.  You people you took to kill my father, you are not prepared to tell us.  We want the truth, we want to know how he was killed.  If you don't tell us the truth, how can we forgive you?
	There are so many questions, but now because you are telling a lie I don't have even have the strength to go on even asking questions.

MR MASANGO: What is your version of the truth as far as this incident is concerned?

MR MOLOPE: You're just telling a lie.  You said people should go and kill a person not knowing, not knowing as to whether that is Molope or not.  You together with Molope(?) and his girlfriend, you are murderers and now you are asking for forgiveness but you are not telling the truth.
	Our intention is to know how our father was killed but it seems you are confused about what you are saying,  you don't even remember the date of the incident.  My sister is now crying and again you're showing pride.  People who are hurt, you should be using your own language to show us that you are hurt also.

MR MASANGO: I'm not proud of having killed your father per se, I'm proud of having defended the people of Winterveld and Boputhatswana then against the brutal deeds of your father, I'm proud of that.

MR MOLOPE: You are asking for forgiveness but we are looking for the truth.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, I understand that this is extremely difficult for Mr Molope, that he has lost his father and that he seeks to find out how it happened.  This applicant has told, to the best of his ability, that which he recalls.
	I'm not sure that this line of cross-examination facilitates this process.  Some of the questions which he asks may be better put to one of the other applicants who was in fact the person who carried or who shot his father.  It just seems that we could spend a long time in a debate about what is the truth.  I don't unnecessarily want to curtail his cross-examination, I understand that this is extraordinarily difficult for him, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.
	Yes, also Mr Molope, we as a panel can understand the difficulties that confront you now but it must also be borne in mind as much we want to achieve reconciliation and promote reconciliation, that the question of an applicant in a hearing of this nature to be given forgiveness or to ask for forgiveness is not one of the criteria for the granting of amnesty. 	You've indicated very strongly that you do not accept everything that the applicant said.  We've noted that.  You can continue asking the applicant questions but I think if we could move onto perhaps a different aspect now.

MR MOLOPE: That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr van den Berg, do you have any re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just one or two questions.
	The other policeman who was mentioned was a policeman called Mokobojane, was he also a target?

MR MASANGO: He was also a target.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you ever meet Mokobojane, did you ever have a discussion with him?

MR MASANGO: Well shortly after our arrest, that was as close as I came to Mokobojane.  I used to see him on roadblocks as well but the closest I came to him was when we were arrested, when we had to go to Beirut for point-outs you know.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But you'd had no personal interaction with Mokobojane at all, other than what you've now described?

MR MASANGO: No, I've never had any.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's all, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just a few Chairman.
	I wonder is you can just clarify for me Mr Masango, did you tell Mr Masina exactly what information you had and on which he then gave the order, because it seems to me as though there is a bit of a contradiction. If I'm correct in my notes, Mr Masina never mentioned that you had told him that you'd seen Mr Molope involved in the roadblocks, that he was seen in Winterveld with the massacre, am I wrong there?  I just want to clarify.