Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-05-31

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And did Meki give the orders in respect of the incidents for which you make application.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What were his instructions?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: He told us to take them at about 2, at about 2. At about 2 am he told us to take them, to take them to a place called Indabayezono in Grahamstown, but I had a feeling that the people would see this. I thought about this farm called Man Flats so that they could be killed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give the instruction that they should be killed?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Meki told us to kill them but the place was such an open place and it would be easy for the people who see. But I later took a decision to go to Man Flats.

CHAIRPERSON: You used your discretion on where it should be done, if I understand you correctly.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I took that decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that the reason they were supposed to be killed and were in fact assaulted and one of them killed, was because they were thought of as informers against the organisation and to the South African Police?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And were the South African Police seen as the enemies of the organisation?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: At the time, it was during the apartheid regime or apartheid government.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the South African Police that time seen as the enemy?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, that is correct. They were regarded as the enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, how do you feel about what you did that day, today?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: I don't feel good about it. I would like to ask for forgiveness to the people of Grahamstown, people like Mrs - his parents. I would like to ask for forgiveness. That was never my intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to meet these people if they're willing to meet you and make your peace with them? If it can be arranged?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I would love to get that opportunity and ask for forgiveness and talk to their next of kin.

CHAIRPERSON: And to those victims who are still alive who you assaulted that time? Would they be included?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I would appreciate that. Those are, we are together in the community in Grahamstown.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we will see what can be done. We'll have to ask them if they are willing to meet you also. Do you understand that?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any more questions, Mr Williams?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

MR MAPITSE: Mr Chairman, before I could ask any question, I would ask for an adjournment so that I could consult with some of the victims whom I did not get the opportunity to consult with. I did consult with one victim and I know what his position is towards the application of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Why haven't you consulted with the others?

MR MAPITSE: Mr Chairperson, I only got to see the applicants today. I never got the chance to consult with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, why not?

MR MAPITSE: Mr Chairperson, arrangements were made but I was informed that it was difficult to get hold of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm going to give you until quarter past eleven. We'll adjourn to quarter past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapitse, I believe there is one aspect you want to put to the applicant.

MR MAPITSE: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I am indebted to the Chairperson for the time given me to consult with the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to explain to the applicant where we are now in the procedures. Mr Jodwana, your attorney has completed leading your evidence, it is now the time where your evidence can be subjected to cross-examination. Do you understand that?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: On your right, on your far right, is Mr Mapitse, who appears for the families and victims of the incident that occurred that day. Do you understand that?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand there's one or two issues he wants to raise with you.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MAPITSE: Mr Jodwana, you'll agree with me that there is nobody who was arrested in Grahamstown as a result of the activities of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: But how would he know that, Mr Mapitse. He says he understands those people to have been police informers. It is not usual for the police informer to be named to the arrested person. I don't know, maybe he can comment, but I don't know if he can. Mr Jodwana, can you answer that question? Are you in a position to answer that question?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Which question? Can you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that these youngsters were informers to the police. Can you say whether any of the people of Grahamstown were arrested because these youngsters had informed on them? Or don't you know or what is the position?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Can you please repeat the question, I didn't understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anybody arrested in Grahamstown because they were informed upon by these youngsters?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: No, it was only this incident concerning these people.

CHAIRPERSON: No. When they informers, they must tell the police of certain things, not so.

MNCEDISI JODWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether the police acted and arrested other people, not you or your colleagues, other people because of information given to them by those whom you assaulted?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: No, there were no people who were arrested.

MR MAPITSE: Now, Mr Jodwana, I want to put it to you that you were mistaken when you thought that the victims were informers. What do you say to that?

MNCEDISI JODWANA: No, I was not mistaken, I witnessed those, I witnessed them informing.

MR MAPITSE: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPITSE

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions.

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Have you got any other witnesses, Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: That is the case for the applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapitse, have you got any witnesses that you want to call?

MR MAPITSE: I have no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any witnesses?

MS MTANGA: I have no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that seems to bring an end to the evidence in this application. Mr Williams, I'm going to skip you at the moment as far as argument is concerned. If there is anything after the others have argued that I wish you to discuss or to deal with, then I will inform you.

MR WILLIAMS: ... Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anything to argue about, or any aspect you want to raise?

MR MAPITSE: Mr Chairman, I wouldn't say I have very much since the applicant has disclosed also the activities. The only issue would be an emotional issue by the victims they were not informers, but then it would take this matter. That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anything to say in argument?

MS MTANGA: No, I have no argument, Mr Chair. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to take a bit of time to consider this matter and the applicant will be informed in due course.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS