Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.  There are a couple of items I just want to put on record.  The first item is that General Knobel has contacted us and he said that if his attorney doesn't put it on record when we begin, his apology for the comment his attorney made yesterday.  We should expressly put it on record on his behalf and he apologises for what happened yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis has already indicated to me that he wants to have an opportunity to do so Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether it should be formalised by Mr du Plessis.
 Mr du Plessis, perhaps this is a convenient time to indicate?

MR DU PLESSIS: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  I just want to apologise again for the remark I've made and place on record that my client disassociates him as well with the remark.  Thank you very much for the opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Plessis.
 That takes care of that Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: The second item is that the legal team of Doctor Wouter Basson have indicated that they will object to him giving evidence here.  They can indicate the basis therefore.  We are of the view that we should have that argument earlier rather than later.  And I'm advised that as Mr Cilliers is not available today, he's researching this point at the moment.  We should have that argument at the latest by tomorrow morning when Mr Cilliers will be available in order, that if there is any further legal action contemplated by Doctor Basson's legal team, we are not crowded out of this week.

CHAIRPERSON: Were we going to be hearing Mr Basson tomorrow?

MR VALLY: Well, initially we scheduled him for tomorrow, we then scheduled him for Thursday.  However, I would ask the panel to hear the legal argument regarding Doctor Wouter Basson because there is the outside possibility that Mr Basson could begin on late Wednesday depending on how fast we get through the witnesses we have.  So if he can, after obtaining the views of Doctor Wouter Basson's legal team, have the legal argument regarding the issue of him giving evidence tomorrow morning, by agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we've indicated yesterday to Mr Chaskalson that, I don't want to use the word: "object", but we would put a request to you regarding Doctor Wouter Basson's evidence, the view of the pending criminal case.  And the basis for that, the basis is Mr Chairman, that at this stage he is being forced by legislation to give evidence about a matter related to his pending criminal case and the charges against him and consequently he has a right to keep silent according to the Constitution and he must not be pressurised to show his hand at this stage.
 Yesterday you saw that we've received a note from the Attorney General regarding the various charges against Doctor Basson.  This was done by Doctor D'Oliveira's investigative team.  This is also a charge regarding conspiracy.  We will argue this in detail and will refer to the necessary authority.  
 At this stage I want to mention that we discussed this with Mr Vally yesterday and I and Mr Cilliers, we together appear for Mr Basson, and Mr Vally felt that the correct time to pose argument is when Mr Basson is supposed to give evidence.  Mr Vally said that perhaps they could do it earlier but Mr Cilliers is not available today.  I cleared with Mr Vally before these proceedings.  He is still doing research about this matter.  We haven't made a final decision.  He will be back this afternoon.  He's available tomorrow morning and I think we will be in a position to argue the matter.   Mr Cilliers might have one or other problem but we will be able to proceed tomorrow morning.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Zyl.
 Mr Vally, are you calling further evidence?

MR VALLY: The final issue which I want to place on record Mr Chairperson is, Professor Finkhuizen is here from the office of the State President.  His concern is the issue of proliferation.  He has indicated to us that in the event of any witness producing any documents which are not in the bundle presently in the possession of the Commission, which has been made available to the various parties who are involved in this matter, that there be an opportunity to study these documents with a view to curbing any possible proliferation, and we have no objection to this.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well Mr Vally.
 Professor Haysom, are you going to - Professor Haysom, do you want to formally place yourself on the record?

PROF HAYSOM: Mr Chairman, I'm here currently, although as indicated previously, from the office of the President but nominally representing the Department of Foreign Affairs in our role as I have described perhaps light-heartedly as proliferation policeman.  We have not had an opportunity to engage other counsel although we expect counsel to assume my function shortly and he will, Advocate Arendse will be placed on record when he arrives.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

PROF HAYSOM: I also want to confirm that arrangement that I have made with Mr Vally, that we would be given an opportunity in the event of surprise documents that we haven't had an opportunity of as it were, screening it in case there is any danger of proliferation.   And also to record that in respect of those documents which are before you they have in fact been the subject of considered and considerable joint scrutiny and we are quite happy with the arrangements that were made yesterday afternoon in respect thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Professor Haysom.
 Mr Vally, does that take car of the preliminaries?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair, yes it does.

CHAIRPERSON: May I then welcome everybody to this second day hearing on the CBW Programme and I believe everybody has been placed on record.  Mr Currin, you are already on record but I don't know whether you are for IMSA or for ... but here I believe you are for what you are.

MR CURRIN: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I nearly thought as much when I saw you.   M Vally, your first witness please.

MR VALLY: My first witness is Doctor Johan Koekemoer.

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Johan Koekemoer, welcome to these proceedings.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are represented by Mr Polsen I believe.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Polsen, you did place yourself on record yesterday?

MR POLSEN: I did so yesterday Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, you can formally place yourself in respect of this particular witness.

MR POLSEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you testify Mr Koekemoer I will ask Advocate Potgieter to swear you in formally.

ADV POTGIETER: Doctor Koekemoer, are your full names Johan Koekemoer?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I am Johannes Matteus Koekemoer.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Of course Doctor Koekemoer, you are free and entitled to express yourself in a language you are best comfortable with.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I don't care to talk in English Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It's your choice, thank you.
 Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I just want to enquire if Doctor Koekemoer has any statement he wishes to hand in before I commence with my questions.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, Mr Vally, I won't be handing in any statements.

MR VALLY: Thank you Doctor Koekemoer.  Doctor Koekemoer, what was your occupation prior to joining Delta G?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Prior to joining Delta G I was Professor of Organic Chemistry at the Rand Afrikaans University.  I have a BSc in Chemistry, MSc in Organic Chemistry and also a DSc in Organic Chemistry.

MR VALLY: How did you come to join Delta G?