Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

MR PRIOR: (continued)  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gqomfa, you indicated in your evidence that the rifle grenade would had been fired into the Restaurant and Tavern as a sign of withdrawal.  Who fired the grenade into the Restaurant?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is the person on my right, Madasi.

MR PRIOR: Mr Zola Mabala?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Madasi.

MR PRIOR: Oh, I beg your pardon, Mr Madasi.  When were the hand grenades supposed to have been thrown into the Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: They were supposed to be thrown in when we were shooting at the people.

MR PRIOR: From outside the premises, that is from the street?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, whilst we were still on the street outside.

MR PRIOR: And who were to throw the grenades into the premises, into the Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Mabala.  Zola Mabala.

MR PRIOR: Now, was it possible for you to see who was inside the Tavern at the time when you opened fire as you described to the Committee?  In other words could you see the patrons, or whether anyone was inside the premises?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, there were people in there.

MR PRIOR: Yes, could you describe those, what you saw?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I just saw people.  I was not interested what type of people they were.  I just went to do what I had to do.

MR PRIOR: Did you see young men and women sitting at tables?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I did not care about that.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not whether you cared, the question is whether you saw.  Did you see people, young men and young women sitting at tables?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I saw people at tables.

MR PRIOR: Did you see young men and young women?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I did not consider the ages, I just saw people.

MR PRIOR: Did you hear music coming from within?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot remember clearly.

MR PRIOR: You see, I understand that at that time there was a musician by the name of Josh Sithole who was playing music in that restaurant at that time.  Did you not see Mr Sithole, a black person, playing music?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I did not see him.

MR PRIOR: Do I understand then from what you are telling us, you did not care who made up the clientele at the Tavern at the time, whether they were black people, coloured people, whether they were students, whether they were musicians and the like?  It made no difference to you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, you must understand that the order was that I should go to this place and shoot the people, whether they were students or not was not a criteria.  Whether they were black or white, we were not fighting a racial war.  No body was written on the forehead whether he was a white oppressor or a black oppressor.  An oppressor has no colour, no race.

MR PRIOR: You said when you attacked the Nyanga Army Base and the Lingelethu police station, you don't know or you didn't think there were any casualties?  Is that so?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Please repeat the question.

MR PRIOR: Well you said in your evidence earlier that when you attacked Nyanga Army Base and Lingelethu police station nobody died as far as you were aware?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Is that because you never shot at any person that you saw there?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We were shooting at people, we were not shooting at buildings.

MR PRIOR: And did those people shoot back at you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, they shot back.

MR PRIOR: Is that when your unit then moved away, when you met resistance?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is not the reason.  We just had to withdraw at that point.  What you must understand is that we are operating behind enemy lines so to speak.  We are a guerilla army.
	If we had to drag the operation it would be evident who it was that shot at the people, that is why we had to withdraw quickly.  We were not withdrawing because we were being shot at.

MR PRIOR: When you opened fire, I am moving now back to the Heidelberg incident, when you opened fire at the Heidelberg Tavern as you have described, were the doors to the Tavern, that is the front doors, were they open or closed?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I think that there was one door that was opened if I am not mistaken.

MR PRIOR: Now, the rifle grenade that was fired in by Mr Madasi, why did that have wire nails either glued or fixed to the head of the rifle grenade?  Can you explain that to us?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We decided to make it so so that as many people as possible could be injured.  It was done for more impact and more casualties.

MR PRIOR: Did you realise that the rifle grenade, modified as you have described or had agreed to, if it had exploded could have killed very many people, more than in fact who were killed?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That was our aim.  I am clear about that.

MR PRIOR: Is there any reason why the rifle grenade wasn't used in the other attacks, that is on the Army Base or the police station at Lingelethu?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We were running out of ammunition.   We had to use this rifle grenade specifically at the Tavern.

MR PRIOR: You see, I don't understand your earlier evidence when you said the rifle grenade was to be fired as a sign of withdrawal.  Wasn't it to be part of the entire attack?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The rifle grenade was used at the Tavern, we had to use it, we were obliged to use it, it was part of the plan, it was a withdrawal sign.  We knew that it could injure us as well, if it had exploded, that is why we used it as a withdrawal sign.

JUDGE WILSON: Why use it only at the Tavern, why didn't you use it elsewhere?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is an order that we received.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you sure?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I am certain.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I am reading now from your application for amnesty, Annexure 1 operation Hunger Logo, where you talk, it is on page 4 of the papers.  You talk about your attack on the SADF Base in Nyanga East and in the third paragraph you say, we deployed ourselves into three attack units in front of the entrance gate.
	Myself and Xolani Jantjie were to spring the attack, Zola Prince Mabala was to throw the hand grenades while the third group of  Vuyisile Brian Madasi and Theofolus Sibeko was to shoot with the R4 rifles.  The former having to launch a rifle grenade as a withdrawal signal.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What page are you on sir?

JUDGE WILSON: It is the first page, it is Annexure 1 to your application for amnesty, which I take it your counsel has a copy of - page 4 of the large Bundle.  Have you got it?
	You see there you talk about using the rifle grenade as a withdrawal symbol at the Army camp and in the next paragraph, you explain that Vuyisile never launched the rifle grenade.  Now you tell us it was never to be used there, it was a strict order that it should only be used at the Tavern.  Why did you write this down in your application?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What is your question therefore?

JUDGE WILSON: Why in your application did you say you intended to use the rifle grenade in attacking the Army camp when you had just now told us that was never intended?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: This is how things happened, you understand.

JUDGE WILSON: I am afraid I don't.  Did you intend to use the rifle grenade on the Army camp as a withdrawal signal?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was an aim to use the rifle grenade at the Army camp as a withdrawal sign, but the way things happened were such that we could not.

JUDGE WILSON: But a minute ago you said it wasn't the intention, it was only to be used at the Tavern.  Can you explain why you said that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I am trying to clarify that according to my statement or application, the rifle grenade had to be used.  We had three rifle grenades.  However, the one we used at the Tavern, we had to use it.  Do you understand?