Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: I crave your indulgence.  I am going to move through about seven issues very quickly.    I am trying to be as quick as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Quickly please and focused.

MR PIGOU: Yes of course.  The Lolo Sono incident.  Norman Lemmer admitted yesterday that he took statements from Nicodemus Sono.  Well we have deducted that it could have only been Nicodemus Sono and Mr Tjabalala.  I wanted to know whether that information was passed on to you, as again the investigating officer of Winnie Mandela cases.  Winnie Mandela was implicated directly in this statement.  Was that information passed to you?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: The disappearance of Lolo Sono?

MR PIGOU: That is correct.  The abduction, yes.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, during my interview with Richardson he mentioned the name of Sono.  I can't remember Tjabalala's name.  And frankly I wasn't even aware that Mr Lemmer had taken statements from ....

MR PIGOU: So his testimony is you were not made aware by Mr Lemmer of the information which would have been of crucial importance to you with regards to the Sono case.  Because there was information implicating Mrs Mandela directly in an abduction.  A yes or no will do.  You weren't made aware?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, I am not running away.  Other information at my disposal indicated that Mrs Mandela had allegedly seen Lolo Sono abroad and that information is now it the possession of the Attorney-General.

MR PIGOU: So again as briefly as possible you did not make a connection between the Richardson incident, the death of cadres and the disappearance of Lolo Sono and Sevenese Tjabalala.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: As far as I was concerned that they weren't abducted, that they were sent out for military training.   And I kept that tape recording as it was part of the treason docket that was being prepared.

MR PIGOU: So the investigation was conducted subsequently by Mr Dempsey from the murder and robbery unit, it would be fair to say that it was hampered by the fact that you had never made information available from the security branch that Richardson was an informer, that he could have persueed that link between the two cases, the Pretorius case and the actual abduction.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I personally informed Dempsey, I listened to the evidence yesterday, I personally informed Dempsey that Richardson had been an informer.  I did say so that he would be aware of the calibre person he was dealing with and I can recall, I am not positive I don't want to put Von Lieres in a tight spot but I am sure that I had a discussion with Von Lieres as well concerning him.

MR PIGOU: Okay.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: The accused in Stompie Sepei's case had been an informer for the security branch.

MR PIGOU: Okay.  I just want to refer briefly now to the interview with Mrs Mandela in connection with the Oupa Sehere case.  Mrs Mandela doesn't recall making that specific statement but she responded I think in the in camera hearing the first day pages 103 and 4 that she made many statements and that she was arrested "time without number".  Now can you tell us during your period of investigating in 1987 did she make many statements or is this the only statement that she made?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: This is the only statement that I know of.

MR PIGOU: Okay.   And secondly was she arrested "time without number" during this period?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I couldn't hear you.

MR PIGOU: Was she arrested "time without number" during this period?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No.  And neither was her house searched three to four times a night.

MR PIGOU: Was she arrested at all during this period?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Not that I am aware of.

MR PIGOU: Okay, thank you.   I want to now turn to the testimony of Mr Lemmer yesterday about the statement taken from Kutesa Dbakhulu in March 1990 and I believe in your evidence you say that he was held in custody on the 14th March.  The statement was taken on the 15th March and he was held until some time in August.  Mr Lemmer has said that he was held in protective custody because he was scared.  Is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I cannot recall that.  I only established the protective custody aspect during the trial here.  The register indicates that Mr Dbakhula was detained on the 16th March 1990 and was handed over to murder and robbery on the 29th May 1990.

MR PIGOU: Okay.  Did you interview Mr Dbakhula during his period of detention?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No.

MR PIGOU: And why did you not do that considering the fact that he had very close proximity to Mrs Mandela, the Mandela household and possibility the activities of the Mandela United Football Club and Mkhonto we Sizwe members?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: It wouldn't have served any purpose because he was going to be an accused in a trial, which Mr Dempsey was investigating.

MR PIGOU: But with respect Mr Potgieter, if you were able to convince Mr Dempsey that Mabotha was a good witness would it not have been possible if you had elicited valuable information that Dbakhulu could have been a good witness?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes, and I believe that the ...

MR PIGOU: So why didn't you persuee questioning it then?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I believe that the decision not to call Mabotha as a witness was not because of my request.  I thought it was because of my request.  In fact according to Mr Van Vuuren it wasn't.  It was his own decision after having consulted with him.

MR PIGOU: Well I think just for the record Mr Dempsey says it was at your request as well so you have said that.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I did request - of course I did request Mr Dempsey but the final decision lies with the prosecutor.

MR PIGOU: Okay.  No, we understand that.  Could you tell me whether Mr Coetzee or Mr Nienaber, the commanding officers, were briefed by yourself or  others on the progress in the Winnie Mandela cases that you were investigating and related matters such as the Pretorius incident and the fact that Richardson for instance was an informer?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I didn't get the complete question.

MR PIGOU: What I am trying to find out is did the commanding officers of the security branch, in 1988 Mr Coetzee, in 1989 Mr Nienaber, were they briefed by yourself as the chief investigating officer of Winnie Mandela cases or by other people that you may have spoken to about this, about those cases and about the progress in those cases and related matters such as the Pretorius, the death of one of your colleagues and the fact that Richardson was an informer?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, I did not discuss the position of Mr Richardson with my commanders because they knew that.  As far as Mr Pretorius is concerned I can't recall having discussed that with him.  And as far as the Mandela investigation is concerned I am sure that I did inform them of the progress being made.

MR PIGOU: So one would expect them to have some knowledge of the progress in these cases, the nature of perhaps not in detail but certainly a broader general nature of the cases that were being investigated.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Well they had many things to deal with and I am sure that ...

MR PIGOU: Yes but this is the most high profile political personality you have got sitting in Soweto in your jurisdiction.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I think they were just as eager to get Mrs Mandela in an accused's box as I was.

MR PIGOU: Okay, thank you.  Briefly now two more points and then I have gone and I thank you for giving me this time.  You indicated that - during your testimony earlier that you knew that torture happened in other parts of the country in terms of the security branch but not in your experience at the Soweto security branch.  Is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Sir, I did not permit assaults.

MR PIGOU: No, I am not asking you whether you permitted it.  I am asking you whether you knew about it.