Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

UNKNOWN: When the statement was made to you that he had been given the okay, the so-called okay, we are talking about 1989, did you find that surprising that an okay had been given for such an operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wasn't completely taken by surprise.

UNKNOWN: Within the Security Police fraternity, were there already cases known where operations had been performed, that had been authorised?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Were there cross-border operations that you were aware of and which, as far as you were aware, had been authorised?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: That includes operations in Lesotho, operations in Swaziland and Botswana, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: There were also incidents ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: I am sorry to interrupt you.  When you say that you got the impression or that he told you that he got the okay from above, who was at that stage in charge?  Who did you think he was referring to when he said people from the top gave him the okay?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: My perception was that it referred to the top structure of the Police and also on a ministerial level in some cases.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but at that stage, who formed the structure, who were the people by name?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: In 1989 if I remember correctly it was General Van der Merwe who was the Commissioner of the South African Police.  Mr Vlok was the Minister of Law and Order.

ADV DE JAGER: And was it your impression that when he said that he got the okay from above, that he had been given the approval of these people, or what did you think he meant?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I didn't know from whom, but the perception which I had was that it had to be either at the level of the Security Headquarters, at a very senior level, either the Commissioner of the Minister or on all three levels.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, you've mentioned the Commissioner and the Minister.  Who was the Head of Security or the Chief of Security in control of Security at a high level?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: General Smit was the Security Chief.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew of Gilbert's position within the Security Branch structures?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I did.  I knew what his position was.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew where he was placed?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Taking into account the place where he was placed and his precise position within the Security Branch, who would have been, from whom in particular, would you expect him to have got the instructions?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: From the Head of Security.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it then, did you say General ...

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was Smit.

CHAIRPERSON: Smit?

UNKNOWN: It is General Basie Smit?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps just arising from the questions put to you by the Chairperson.  Could you perhaps explain to us very briefly, Gilbert was the Divisional Commander for the Eastern Cape, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And their line structure, in other words, their direct command, that ran to the Chief of Security from the Divisional Commanders?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is how I understood it.

UNKNOWN: C10, where you were in command, or C Section, that was a separate section, it didn't run through you, their contact with the Security Chief?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Van Rensburg, you were also the Divisional Commander or Commissioner of the Eastern Cape at some stage?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, no, I wasn't.

UNKNOWN: I think I must also say that you were second in command at some stage in the Eastern Cape?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I was for a short while, I was second in command.

UNKNOWN: When you and Gilbert worked together in the Eastern Cape, who was the senior of the two of you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Gilbert.

UNKNOWN: You then deal with the following.  You were saying that when you heard about the okay, you were already aware of other operations which you referred to and which you said there had been authorization for, it was known in the security fraternity, it was known that the blowing of COSATU House had been authorised?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in the security establishment it was known that it had been authorised.

UNKNOWN: Also Khotso House?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Khotso House, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Were there any cases where authorization had been given to eliminate some of your colleagues, such as the case here?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not as far as I was aware at that stage.  I didn't know about any such cases.

ADV POTGIETER: So this was the very first time that you became of such an instruction?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.  Yes, of this particular kind of order.

UNKNOWN: On page 5 you continue by mentioning that Gilbert told you that this operation enjoyed high priority, that there was a further problem that the people were involved in some kind of fraud?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did he then further tell you that he was sending Captain Nieuwoudt to you to come and discuss the matter in detail with you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, he said he was sending Nieuwoudt to me because in the Eastern Cape there wasn't the necessary capacity to launch the necessary operation.

UNKNOWN: The next morning, well the arrangement was that Nieuwoudt would come and see you the next morning?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did Gilbert request you to give Nieuwoudt the necessary help?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you make a specific arrangement that Nieuwoudt should come and see you early the next morning?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You make the allegation that he was to come and see you at six o'clock that morning?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That was approximately that time, yes.

UNKNOWN: What was the reason for that?  It is very early, long before normal office hours?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I told Gilbert that or Gilbert suggested that Nieuwoudt should come and see me at my office on this particular day and I told Gilbert that I had other commitments for the day and if he wanted Nieuwoudt to come and see me, it would have to take place very early in the day because I wouldn't be available the rest of the day.  And that is why it was arranged for early in the morning.

UNKNOWN: Did you also infer from  Gilbert's conversation that this was a matter which would probably be dealt with by Vlakplaas, did you try and contact Colonel De Kock?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  Mr Gilbert specifically mentioned to me that Vlakplaas would have to assist here.  There wasn't capacity otherwise.

UNKNOWN: On the day before Nieuwoudt arrived there, did you manage to contact Colonel De Kock?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I couldn't get in touch with him.  I telephoned him at home that evening, but his wife couldn't tell me where he was, I could not track him down.

UNKNOWN: Just to make it quite clear, at that time you lived in Pretoria in Nomkwaai Park, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is.

UNKNOWN: Did Mr De Kock also stay there?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How far away was his house from yours?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I would think about 50 metres, but let's say between 50 and 100 metres to be more accurate.  I am not that good at judging distance.

UNKNOWN: In any event, the next morning at six o'clock, Nieuwoudt arrived at you place, at your office?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did you thereafter phone Colonel De Kock and asked him to come over?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.