Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: ebruary of 1986, refer to the fact that the paramilitary support for Inkatha, which was referred to in those documents, which was an internal operation, had to be authorised at the highest level, the similar term used. At that stage you were already on the State Security Council, you in fact attended that meeting, would this same highest level that would be referred to in relation to that matter in any way bear any relation to the highest level that would be referred to in the earlier one in relation to clandestine operations to which we've referred?

MR DE KLERK: Not necessarily I think. I really can't give you a very informed opinion. My recollection of that was that as I can remember, a case was made out that Chief Minister Buthelezi's life was under threat, many of his leading figures had been targeted, there was need for well trained VIP protection to effectively ensure that the ANC would not succeed in strategies to assassinate, murder him and other leading figures, and that on that basis, permission was given for an operation which would entail the expenditure of funds to train such people to perform that duty. That is what I recall of it.

MR GOOSEN: And that by it's very nature was a clandestine or covert operation? It certainly was not made public that that support was being offered. Would from your understanding of the matter, would clandestine or covert operations generally then be authorised in that manner at the highest level?

MR DE KLERK: No, and let me give you an example. I referred in my first submission to, and there's also a reference in the second one, to the authorisation which I gave to move into the Transkei towards Umtata, that event which ended tragically in the death of a number of young people. On that occasion I asked, after I had been given the cross-checked information, and I was asked to authorise that they can cross the border into the Transkei, I asked, but why must I now authorise it, I mean this was extraordinary, this was the first time and almost the only time that I was asked to authorise something like that when I was President. And they said well the law prescribes it because it's cross- border. And I said, if you had reason to believe that inside South Africa, not in the Transkei, inside South Africa a similar set of circumstances existed, would I have been asked to authorise it? And they said no, then it would have been authorised at a lower level. That just gives you an indication of sort of when is it asked and when isn't it asked, that's a good example.

MR GOOSEN: Alright so it would depend on also the nature of the operation or the activity that is being authorised, that would be required at a higher level than other levels of authorisation?

MR DE KLERK: That's it, that's right.

MR GOOSEN: Now it's evident from military and State Security Council documentation that the South African state was strongly influenced by the principles of counter- revolutionary warfare and this much is also apparent from the principles which are enshrined in the very structure of the National Security Management system itself. Documents for example written by the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: General

<UNKNOWN>: raser and authors such as JJ MacKewan, were summarised and circulated amongst persons engaged in counter-revolutionary struggle. 
Now counter-revolutionary warfare involved, amongst other things, it would appear from these documents, the annihilation of the insurgent while winning the hearts and minds of the population, and recognising the particular phase of the revolutionary struggle that one finds oneself in. Now General

<UNKNOWN>: raser in a document which was a military document entitled, Lessons learned from Past Revolutionary Wars, stated that, whilst terror was counter-productive, in that it alienated the populace, he recognised that terrorism was a particularly appropriate weapon since it is aimed directly at the inhabitant. He stated that the use of force must be very carefully weighed up and that, to quote,
"The use of terrorism by government forces must be decided upon at the highest level, and it must also be so applied as to avoid it boomeranging."
Now the highest level that's referred to here and referred to in the instances I've quoted to you in relation to clandestine operations, would this be the same highest level that would be referred to in relation to these types of operations?

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman I have to point out that quietly Mr Goosen is using the documentation and quoting from the documentation which was sprung on me this morning and which I haven't had the time to study. He's just quoted from page 26, from page 25 thereof, his previous quotation came from 23 and 24, and I thought you made a ruling that if any questions emanate with regard to these documentation it should be given to me in writing and I should be given the opportunity to deal with that. That's the first point I want to make.
Secondly, just on glancing at this document now, it appears as if this is an academic article with sources given and everything, and the question gives the impression as if this is an official state document in somehow or another. So I really must object Mr Chairman to the way in which these documents are being dealt with.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Glen?

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson let make it quite clear, the bundle of documents given to Mr de Klerk, he doesn't need to refer to the documents to answer to the questions in the first instance. In the second instance they are given to him so that he would have them available. I'm putting to him certain statements, certain positions in an endeavour to explore his understanding of how it is that clandestine operations and particular types of operations would be authorised by institutions of government, in particular State Security Council in this instance. 
I can indicate to him and we can get into a debate about the particular documents if he wishes. But this particular document,

<UNKNOWN>: raser's Lessons learned from Past Revolutionary Wars was circulated by the former President, circulated to all members of the State Security Council whilst Mr de Klerk served on that. But I don't want to get into that debate because I'm not in fact engaging with Mr de Klerk on the document. In fact your quotation of the page is wrong, I referred to page 27.

MR DE KLERK: I said 25 and 6.

MR GOOSEN: Yes. The quote actually appears at page 27. I'm not asking Mr de Klerk to address himself to the particular document. I'm putting a position to him and I'm asking him for a response to it. If he doesn't want to answer directly on the document, clearly he's entitled not to do so and he can respond at a later stage, but I also believe, given the nature of this hearing, that I would be entitled to put the question.