Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I think here he refers to the first person whom we arrested in the vehicle.  He refers to two separate incidents here.  One with a vehicle and a person who is applied as an informer and a second one where Spykerbeen was used to introduce Jimmy Mbane to Nthombi Khubeka and Mr Ras referred here to a place where the vehicle was pulled off the road on the main road.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Not at the beach, Battery Beach?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, not at the beach.

MR VISSER: And to take it somewhat further, Chairperson, Mr Radebe in bundle 2, on page 117...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Visser, not to throw you out of your stride, where's reference made to Battery Beach on page 84/85?

MR VISSER: That's the point, there isn't a reference to Battery Beach and that's why he says there's a confusion between the two incidents.

MR LAX: But this is before, this is apropos of introducing Khubeka to somebody this happened long before she was abducted, according to the way this statement's going, so with the greatest of respect this is not, bring Battery Beach into it only muddies the water even further, it's got nothing to do with it.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Botha tried to explain to you that Spykerbeen, the man in the plaster of Paris, was used in the Khubeka incident to introduce the two askaris to her.  He says that's the confusion.

MR LAX: Yes, Mr Visser, I fully understand that.  That's not the issue, but it's got nothing to do with Battery Beach and nowhere is Battery Beach used here as a basis for confusion.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Ras talks about the arrest of the person on the highway.

MR LAX: Precisely.

MR VISSER: So the point is simply that he's referring to a different incident.

MR LAX: That's fine, but by bringing Battery Beach into it and saying that was some basis for the confusion, it's not mentioned here at all.  I was just wanting to emphasise that and yes, Ras may well be confusing Spykerbeen and some cadre who was picked up on a highway, but it's got nothing to do with Battery Beach and it was prior to that incident, that's all I'm saying.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I would have thought it's clear that he's talking about an incident on a highway and not an incident at Battery Beach, but if you feel that way, Mr Chairman, then I will leave it.  Page 117 of bundle 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, sorry, in 1987, wasn't there a highway at Battery Beach?  Wasn't it the main road through to Umhlanga rocks?  At that stage?  Battery Beach, wasn't that on the main road to the North Coast in 1987?

MR LAX: There's still a double or triple lane highway that passes Battery Beach.

CHAIRPERSON: So talking about a highway doesn't necessarily exclude Battery Beach.  I think we're getting a bit ...

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I seem to have the wrong reference to Mr Radebe.  Yes, Mr Chairman, it's bundle 1, yes.  It should be bundle 1 not bundle 2, Mr Chairman, page 117.

CHAIRPERSON: That's ...(indistinct - mike not on) of page 117?

MR VISSER: Yes.  You see, at the top of the page, paragraph 48, well according to what you've now put to Mr Botha, Mr Chairman and what I heard Mr Lax say, perhaps what I saw as a possible contradiction may not be one, because the only reference there is again to a "Hoofweg".  Perhaps that's not necessary to draw your attention then specifically to that.  Maybe I misunderstood this to be two different places so perhaps that is what Commissioner Lax was trying to tell me when I didn't understand.
	Chairperson, yes, well then I can leave that, yes.  The last reference Mr Chairman, for your convenience perhaps is the reference, cross-reference to Mr Jimmy Mbane and perhaps also for the information, Mr Samuel, bundle 1 volume 1, page 128 Mr Chairman, he sets out what I've already put to Mr Botha when I referred to bundle 2 page 130 to page 131, it's simply a cross-reference.  This is the typed version where I previously referred at page 130 I believe it was, but I may be mistaken.  No it wasn't.

MR LAX: They're just two different statements, Mr Visser taken by two different people but they seem similar, anyway.

MR VISSER: Then Mr Chairman, lastly, there is a reference in bundle 2 to a statement by Mr Eugene de Kock at page 113 and there are two paragraphs there relevant, the one is paragraph 3.2.4 at page 113.  Mr Botha what Mr de Kock says is that he visited Durban during this time in which the Vlakplaas members were here and on a day he held discussions with Mr Joe Coetzer with regard to a female leader whom we suspect refers to Nthombi Khubeka and he says that he informed me that 6 persons had been abducted during this operation.  Would you agree with that, that during the Nthombi Khubeka operation 6 people were abducted?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is not correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: He informed me that they had been detained in a house in the Durban area where they had been tied up and that would follow that that is also not correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And he says
"Joe also informed me that Hentie had murdered an elderly black man.  He informed me that Hentie wanted to murder the black woman that evening and that he had to accompany him.  He then told Coetzer not to go along and told him to remain with him, that's Eugene"
And then in paragraph 3.2.5, he says the following:
"Coetzer informed him that you had indeed murdered the woman by killing her with a water pipe."
Is there any truth in this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot comment on what Eugene de Kock's allegations are that Coetzer would have told to him.

MR VISSER: Is there any truth in these allegations?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: None whatsoever Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Indeed was or was he not, this is Coetzer, present the evening when Nthombi Khubeka was taken to Winkelspruit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, he was present Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you please tell the Committee what your motivation was to have acted in the manner in which you did?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, my political motivation was to combat ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: For Mr Wills's information, we're now proceeding again with the statement, paragraph 40, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: To combat the revolutionary onslaught the South African Police and the Government from embarrassment during a time period when there was much criticism in the country as well as internationally against the government.  The ANC grabbed all incidents which indicated to offences by the Security Forces and used it as propaganda in order to place the government in the worst light possible.  My actions were aimed at the maintenance and protection of the previous government and State dispensation.  The actions and omissions of which I am guilty, I had done during the execution of my official duties.

MR VISSER: I must apologise, I missed this.  The last part of that sentence is not correct.  You and Taylor decided jointly?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, we took a mutual decision.  I did it as part of the opposition to the struggle and my actions were aimed at support of the liberation movement.  What I had done, I did in order to protect the National Party and the Government's interests and to combat the revolutionary onslaught.  As such I bona fide believed that what I had done fell within the scope of my explicit or tacit authorisation and I request humbly that amnesty be granted to me for my actions and omissions in this regard.