Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: Those State witnesses who claimed to have witnessed the shooting and that whole incident, did they stick to their versions?  You heard it then and you have been able to read their statements now, did they stick to their versions?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, but in some other instances, they contradicted each other.   They were complainants and they were also contradicting each other in court.   They were saying as they were approaching the bakkie, they wanted to see.  I don't know what exactly they wanted to come and see and further, I can't remember some of the other things that they said in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Aside from verbal evidence, was there any other type of evidence which the State chose to lead against you?

THAMI MAHLALA: I don't remember, but I think there were other things that resulted in the Judge finding me guilty and which specifically refers to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: What about fingerprints in 25 Haslink Street?  Was there any evidence of your fingerprints being in that house?

THAMI MAHLALA: They didn't mention anything about my fingerprints in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Not even in the car?

THAMI MAHLALA: They didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in a white bakkie that day?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you were on your way or you used the bakkie to go and fetch firearms, correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, we were using it to go and collect firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Describe this bakkie for me, was it a double cab, do you know what I am talking about, with four doors or only two doors on that bakkie?

THAMI MAHLALA: It was a two door bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you and Vusi were at the back?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that, was there a canopy on it?

THAMI MAHLALA: No, there was no canopy.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure it was a bakkie, I am going to tell you why I am asking that question, I could hardly think that people who were going to fetch illegal arms, would use an open bakkie to transport arms when they are trying to hide those arms away.  Can you comment on that?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, it was a white bakkie, I am sure about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that.  But why use an open bakkie when you are trying to conceal things, especially illegal arms?  Why didn't you people rob another person of a car, where you could put the firearms in the boot and nobody would suspect or see anything?  Or at least you wouldn't risk anybody seeing the arms?

THAMI MAHLALA: We didn't select any particular car.  It so happened that the bakkie came, and we took it, because it was a Contractor's car.  Even if a private car came, we would have robbed it.  Whether it was a private car or a bakkie, it was not ...

CHAIRPERSON: You knew why this motor vehicle needed to be stolen, not so, or hijacked?  You were aware of the purpose for it, is that not so?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I knew that we were robbing it in order to use it to carry firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any particular reason why you never suggested leave this bakkie, because we are going to have to put the firearms on the back of the bakkie, there is more chance of being found out?  Let us steal or hijack a closed motor vehicle, so that we can hide these firearms when we are transporting it.

THAMI MAHLALA: As I think I have already mentioned, that the firearms were not carried in the back of the car, but they were in front where Jamani and Levi were.

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so, but at that time when you stole the motor vehicle, I am asking did it not cross your mind to take further precautions at the risk of being detected?

THAMI MAHLALA: It didn't come to our minds.   What came to our minds is to get a car and with that car, we will be able to get the firearms from Duduza back to the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say Vusi got off the motor vehicle when it was parked under a light, to go urinate?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, he was passing water by the side of the road.

CHAIRPERSON: And you, as I understand your evidence, this other motor vehicle with these white people, suddenly came and parked behind you?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, although I wasn't sure whether they were white or black people inside at the time, they did come and park behind us.

CHAIRPERSON: Suddenly?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, it happened very quickly, while we were thinking what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see this motor vehicle coming on to you from a distance?

THAMI MAHLALA: No, I personally did not see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, did anything prevent you from seeing it?

THAMI MAHLALA: It is because where we parked our bakkie, it was on the low area and there is a steep before you reach it, so if you are coming from the other side of the steep, I can only see you when you are close to me.
	I couldn't see further.  I am trying to describe the road, how it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody use the hooter of that bakkie at that time, immediately before the shooting?

THAMI MAHLALA: No, I didn't hear the sound.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible someone did use the hooter of the bakkie?

THAMI MAHLALA: No.  I didn't hear the bakkie's hooter.

CHAIRPERSON: I am given to understand in the trail, it was alleged that the house in Haslink Street was burgled, is that correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: I don't know because I didn't go there to rob such a house, I went to collect the firearms, so I don't know about it, it is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that in the trial?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I did hear about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know, I am not saying you were guilty of it, do you know whether that house was in fact burgled?

THAMI MAHLALA: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Also in your trial it was said that certain appliances, amongst which was a television, was found in the veld in close proximity to where you people were parked that day.

THAMI MAHLALA: In court, they didn't discuss anything about TV and they didn't mention anything which was found in our vicinity.  The only thing that were found or discovered, were firearms where we were.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say your fingerprints were found inside the bakkie?

THAMI MAHLALA: No, it wasn't mentioned to me in court.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I thought you said that your fingerprints were found inside the motor vehicle.  Did you not say so?  I am sorry if you didn't say so.
	Did you mention anything about fingerprints?

THAMI MAHLALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know how many firearms were found?

THAMI MAHLALA: I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You got ten years for murder?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get ten years for murder?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And for the attempted murder?

THAMI MAHLALA: They mentioned ten years consecutively, so I can't remember, but I ended up with 33.  They also mentioned three years in one of the charges.

CHAIRPERSON: That was for the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, I suppose.  You got ten years each for murder, attempted murder, armed robbery and that ran separately?  Is that not so?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, they combined everything.

CHAIRPERSON: According to your record, you will serve an effective 20 years imprisonment?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I am serving a 20 year sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, this was the only application I had for today.  May I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean for today, have you got more tomorrow?

MR SIBEKO: I still have to go through the list that is here with Mrs Nhlayisi to see whether there are still outstanding applications which are hearable.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, why was this not done over the weekend?