Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I have a problem because people will be implicated and we are concerned with Mr Francisco and people who were involved in that matter.  ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Look, the name appears in the application isn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the name appears in the application.  I don't have a problem him asking about the application, the name of Mr ... but to ask him about another operation they apply for and they are going to mention people's names, then that is going to have problems, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, they are not here, they have not been informed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said they haven't been informed?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I know that, Mr Chairperson, because we are here for this operation which involved Mr Francisco's house.  It has nothing to do with other incidents.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, without mentioning names, were you involved in another operation that afternoon when a cafe was robbed?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I was involved.

ADV DE JAGER: And you were found guilty of being in possession of this shotgun that you took from Mr Franciscato?

WINILE VEVEZA: They court found me guilty.

ADV DE JAGER: When the police arrested you weren't you in possession of that firearm?

WINILE VEVEZA: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you in possession of ammunition?

WINILE VEVEZA: They found two magazines from someone else who was not arrested, they didn't find it from me, and one bullet from a 2.2.

ADV DE JAGER: Weren't you found guilty of being in possession of this shotgun?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I was found guilty because I was sentenced for that shotgun even though it was not with me.

ADV DE JAGER: With whom was it?

WINILE VEVEZA: It was with Mabuti Biko.  We took it - we took all the firearms and Mabuti took them with him to Tamsanqa Duma.

ADV DE JAGER: And that afternoon, didn't you have a shotgun when you were involved in the robbery of the cafe?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.  It had nothing to do with the firearms from Franciscato's home.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that another shogun you had?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, it was another shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get that one?

WINILE VEVEZA: From the cadres in Zwelitsha in King William's Town.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day did that incident occur?

WINILE VEVEZA: It was after seven or before eight.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from Cato's house, you went straight to Mabuti's brother's house, not so?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he left to a place you are unaware of. I mean  you don't know where he went to, correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come back after that?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, he came back.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened then?

WINILE VEVEZA: I told him that I was going to town.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and then?

WINILE VEVEZA: I then went for another robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: Straight from Mabuti's brother's house?

WINILE VEVEZA: I left Mabuti Biko in the township.  I went to town together with other comrades, Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Zukile Biko.

CHAIRPERSON: And performed this robbery in the shop?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Duma that day after the incident at Cato's house?

WINILE VEVEZA: I didn't see him that day, I saw him the next day late.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say he was your commander?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, in the training he was my commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who was your commander in giving you instructions?  I thought you said Duma was that person.

WINILE VEVEZA: It happened sometimes that I would get instructions directly from him and he would give me arms but for this mission or operation I didn't get instructions directly from him.  He gave Mabuti Biko instructions and I then got instructions from Mabuti Biko but when we were near Franciscato's house, when we were at the gate of Franciscato's home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mabuti after he left you at his brother's house?

WINILE VEVEZA: He came back to Zukile's house.  We left him there, we went to town.  I then met him in his place where he was staying.  It was late that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know - did Mabuti know what you went to do in town when you left him at his brother's house?

WINILE VEVEZA: No, we didn't tell him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you perform that action in that shop that night under instructions?

WINILE VEVEZA: No, we were not performing it under instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you knew where you were going to from Mabuti's house.  When you were at Mabuti's brother's house, when you were at that house you knew you were going to that shop and what's going to happen there?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, we knew.  I knew because I told them I was going back to town.  They then said they wanted to go with me.  On our way I told them we must go to that shop and shoot the Boers there.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll come to that.  On that escapade how is it that you were armed when you went there?  Did you ask for a firearm?

WINILE VEVEZA: That was not an organisation's firearm or I didn't get it from my commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get it from?

WINILE VEVEZA: I got it from Zukile Biko.  I asked whether he had a firearm, he said yes, he can borrow me one.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you took the firearm because you knew you were going on a dangerous mission, not so?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was going there to rob, not under the instructions of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what I asked.  I'm asking you whether you realised the dangers that were associated with what you were going to do at that shop.  You were aware of it, not so?  Correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you armed yourself before going there, in order to facilitate the execution of that mission?

WINILE VEVEZA: The reason for me to be armed was because I knew that I was going to shoot when I got in that shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why didn't you - why weren't you satisfied with the bayonet when you went to the shop, why did you want a firearm then?

WINILE VEVEZA: Because I knew what I was going to do there.  I knew that I was going to shoot there.  I could not shoot with a bayonet, I had to use a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV DE JAGER: Did you shoot there at the cafe?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you wound anybody?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: This attack at the house of Mr Franciscato, was it your first involvement as a PAC   operative?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, that was the first one.

ADV SANDI: I notice that you have quite a number of previous convictions ranging from theft, in one instance a vehicle was stolen, housebreaking and so on.  Do you know about that?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I do .

ADV SANDI: Who were you involved with in the commission of those crimes?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was not doing these things for an organisation.

ADV SANDI: Who was with you when you committed those crimes?

WINILE VEVEZA: Putswana Skotile was there when we were stealing a car and Dumisani was also one of the people that I was doing these things with.

ADV SANDI: Dumisani who?

WINILE VEVEZA: I forgotten his surname.

ADV SANDI: When you were told by your co-applicant, Biko, for the first time, that is when you were in front of the gate at the house of Mr Franciscato?  Where did you think you were going?

WINILE VEVEZA: He told me that we were going inside Franciscato's house when we were in front of the gate.  I asked him what we were supposed to do.  He said that we were to take firearms and we were to shoot him.  I then asked him whether he knew that he had firearms in the house.

ADV SANDI: Before he told you what you were going to do, in your mind where did you think you were going?

WINILE VEVEZA: We were going to town.  We were going to walk around town because he didn't tell us what we were going to do because we were used to going together to town or go and visit him.