Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MR RICHARD: Did the placards have any reference to any political party on them?  Did the placard say the meeting was being called by the Democratic Party, the PAC, the ANC or just say that there was a meeting being called?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: These placards were put there by the ANC, but all the people were invited.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.   Now my question was at the meeting things were talked about, what was said, what were people talking about?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were talking about witchcraft and the death of youths and what should be done about that.

MR RICHARD: Who spoke at the meeting, can you give us a list of names?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: One of them was Rinco  Masimola.

MR RICHARD: Did other people talk?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: And Leonard Masimola also.

MR RICHARD: And anybody else?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: And Simon Rapolai.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: And Nose Mahatsi.

MR RICHARD: Can you remember anyone else?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: And Jomo.

MR RICHARD: Were there more people that spoke?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: These people that you have mentioned, did they belong to a political party?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were the supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: How did you know that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Because they knew everything about the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Did they say they were from the ANC?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, did they hold any specific portfolio's in the ANC?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I only know one who had a position in the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Who was that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is Rinco Masimola.

MR RICHARD: What position did he have?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was a Speaker.

MR RICHARD: What does the Speaker do?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was the person who normally addressed the youth.  He will always give speeches at meetings.

MR RICHARD: Now I don't want to know what each one of these various people, before I come to that, one next question, how many people attended the meeting, approximately?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: There were many people, there could be more than 100.

MR RICHARD: Now, I don't want to know what each speaker said, but when they spoke of the death of these four young men, what did they say in short, in summary?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat that question, I don't understand the question?

MR RICHARD: The meeting was called to discuss as you have said the problem of witches and I have understood and I would like you to confirm the question of the death of these four young men.  Am I correct, yes or no?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: These various people spoke, I don't want to know what each one of them said, I want to know in summary, what did the speakers say about the death of the four young men in short?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were asking the people who were attending the meeting, that we should donate R10-00 so that we could go to a sangoma who will tell us who were responsible for their deaths.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  did anyone say that that is a stupid idea and shouldn't be done?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We all agreed.

MR RICHARD: My next question is what did the speakers in summary say about moloi's, witches?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were saying that if those people can be caught, they should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Why did they say that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Because many youths were dying in the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand the belief correctly that you can only catch these people with the assistance of a sangoma?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not possible for a normal person to be able to see a witch, you must be helped by a sangoma, would that be right?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Now, did anyone talk about witches in a political context?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You were speaking about going to a sangoma to find out who was a witch, I have asked another question, did anyone say anything about witches in a political context?  Do you understand the question?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I do.  They were saying that a witch is like an impimpi, and those are the people who should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Who was saying that?  Was it lots of people or just one person?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Those were the people who were at the stage in that church.

MR RICHARD: So was it one person who said that, two people, four or lots of people?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: There were many people who were saying that.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the names of any people who said that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I do remember some.

MR RICHARD: What were the people's names?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Skinosi Mhlatsi.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Simon Rapolai.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: And Georgina.

MR RICHARD: And more people who said that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, there were some, but I do not remember their names.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe you are proceeding on to something else, I do not know.  Just one question on this.  These people whose names you have mentioned, did they have anything to do with any political organisation as far as you were aware at the time?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were supporting the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone argue against them when they said that witches were the same as impimpi's, and should be killed?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No one disagreed with them.

MR RICHARD: What was decided as a result of the discussions at the meeting?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: A decision was taken that all the people in the village should donate R10-00 so that a sangoma can be consulted.

MR RICHARD: Did people donate the R10-00 each?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, they did.

MR RICHARD: Then, what was the R10-00 going to be used for?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: This R10-00's were going to be used to pay for the sangoma.

MR RICHARD: How much money was that that you collected?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was more than R1 000-00.

MR RICHARD: In your statement, page 4 of the bundle, you say
"... two days after the meeting some people went to see the witch-doctor ..."
	do you know how many people, do you remember how many people went to see and what the witch-doctor's name was?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I do remember.

MR RICHARD: How many people left to see him?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: On the first day the people who went to see the sangoma were myself, I was present and Oric Mahlezwani, the third one was Georgina, I forgot her surname.  The fourth one was Addis Maputha.  The fifth one was Dinosi Mhlatsi and the sixth one was Tseisi Tladi, the seventh one was Frederick Mhlatsi.

MR RICHARD: Who were the others?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: The eight one was Jomo.

MR RICHARD: How many people in total were there?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We were all 15 and the 16th was the driver of this kombi.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you get to see a witch-doctor?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, we did not see the doctor.

MR RICHARD: Did you talk to him though?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, the doctor was not present when we arrived at his place, that is the first time when we went to see him, he was not present at his place.

MR RICHARD: Did you leave a message that you had been there or make an arrangement that you would come back?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, we did leave the message.

MR RICHARD: Did you come back to the same person or somebody else?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: The following day we returned to the same doctor.

MR RICHARD: Did you see him this time, did you talk to his this time?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was not present.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever get to see him?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, we did not.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever get to see any moloi or witch-doctor?