Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I thought I clarified this rule No. 8 to you -his aim was to take the car to Queenstown, I don't think I have to answer to that.

CHAIRPERSON: He came back and told you he was going to destroy the car.  Can you give us any reason why that should have been done instead of merely driving the car down one of the streets in Tembasa and leaving it there, why was it necessary to
destroy it?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I don't know.

MR PRIOR: You indicated that the only operation that was postponed was the one I think was in Tembasa, it was supposed to have happened in Tembasa.  That was before the King William's Town attack.  Did you know the identity of the target there?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: You mean the one that was postponed?

MR PRIOR: Yes, you indicated that the only operation you knew that was postponed was the one that was to happen, is it in Tembasa?

MR LAX: He said it was in King William's Town but King William's Town is right next to Tembasa there.

MR PRIOR: Well, I'm just asking him to clarify Mr Chairman, I wasn't too sure whether he said Tembasa or some other place.

MR LAX: I think the Chairperson said Tembasa to him when he was questioning about that issue.

MR PRIOR: Can you just help us and indicate what was the target there, in the postponed attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It was SADF.

MR PRIOR: And did you know where that target was, was it at the base of the army installation at a specific place.  Did you know that place?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No I didn't know the place but it was somewhere in Tembasa.  What happened Comrade Thembelani and Ngoba they left on that particular day of this postponement, they came back, they said we are going to undertake an operation where there would be SADF members who would be celebrating there but it seemed like they were not there therefore the operation had to be postponed, that's the end.

CHAIRPERSON: I missed - who were the two who went first and came back?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It was Comrade Thembelani and Comrade Ngoba.
ADV. GCABASHE: And you got to know about it when they returned?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes they told us.

MR PRIOR: And that was well before the King William's Town operation?

CHAIRPERSON: No you've just agreed with Mr Prior it was well before the King William's Town operation when you were giving your evidence in chief you said it was postponed just before the attack on the Golf Club?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I did not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: What.  You didn't say it was just before?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I said I cannot remember when it was postponed.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you couldn't remember the date and when I asked you when you said it was postponed just before the attack.

MR PRIOR: Are you able to say whether it was a week before, two weeks before?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It's very difficult for me to remember, I don't want to lie.

MR PRIOR: Were you standing ready in October of 1992, were you deployed already in October for this operation?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes I was deployed already.

MR PRIOR: And where were you staying?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I was staying in Tembasa.

MR PRIOR: And what were you doing throughout October month, were you just staying there, were you just moving around or were you doing specific tasks.

MR LAX: Sorry his evidence so far is that he was training and engaging in political classes so in addition to that maybe you canvass what else he was doing?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I would like to add on that, so that you can be satisfied Advocate Prior, when I left Transkei, crossing the borders of Kei Mouth I knew that I was going to South Africa and I even knew the operation that would take place there.  Every day I would ask Commanders because I knew that I was here to fight I was going to kill the whites that's what I would like to add.

MR PRIOR: Had you been told when you left the Transkei that you were going to kill whites in the Republic?

MR PRIOR: There was no need for me to be told because I knew.

MR PRIOR: Well how did you know?

MR LAX: Sorry, maybe we can work out what he knew.  What exactly did you know you were going to do?  You said you knew what the operation was that's what you said.  What did you know?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Mr Chairman, I didn't know the operation but I knew that when I leave Transkei even if I take the Kei Mouth route or Queenstown coming to South Africa I knew that I'm going to be undertaking an operation.  It's not that I know, I knew the specific operation.

MR LAX: Well you see I just want you to be careful because what has just been translated to us was that you knew the operation, not you knew you were going to carry out operations, you knew the operation, so you must be very careful what language you use when you answer these questions otherwise we could have confusion.  You could end up saying something you didn't mean to say.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I also want to add I'm sorry that when he speaks about - he differentiate between operation and the target.  When he refers to operation he means that any operation not necessary the target of whatever operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but moments ago before my friend asked questions he said also "I knew I was here for operations we're going to kill the whites."

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman.
ADV. GCABASHE: Maybe you want to explain that further Mr Mlambisa - that you knew you were coming across the Kei to kill whites - just to explain that to us.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I'm trying to say when I left Transkei for South Africa I knew that operation will be taking place, not killing, just any operation that would include APLA.

MR LAX: Sorry, you've just used the same language and it's very confusing for us.  You said you knew that operation would take place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but not killing.

MR LAX: Now you're saying but not killing.  Previously you said you knew you were going to go and kill whites.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I think he mentioned that not necessary killing when you say he's gone for an operation, he put that not necessarily killing but when you see...[intervention}

MR LAX: With all due respect his previous evidence was that he knew that he was going to go and kill whites so it just doesn't add up so maybe he can explain this for us because he's getting himself deeper and deeper into a knot.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Coming into the Republic, I knew there was an operation I must undertake and operation outside the borders of Transkei, not to kill per se.
ADV. SANDI: You mean to say that whenever you're given instructions by your superiors to go wherever you're being told to go, your understanding is that there must be some work or duty to be preformed?  Is that what you're saying?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Can you please repeat the question?
ADV. SANDI: Those, whenever those who are your superiors gave the instructions to go to wherever, is it always your understanding that there must be a job or a duty to perform there?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible] or I could leave Transkei, secondly there was a lot of work that I was doing for APLA, I could leave Transkei and fetch APLA members elsewhere in South Africa as I was a driver of the organisation APLA to take cadres from Queenstown for example to Transkei.
ADV. SANDI: Do you know of this particular operation that was going to take place when you left the Transkei?  I see from paragraph 5 that you say you only got to know about it on the
day it was to be carried out?  You didn't know?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I never got to know beforehand.  What I only knew was that there must be a mission not necessary an operation, there is a mission I must undertake by leaving Transkei, when I left Transkei.

MR PRIOR: I still don't understand your reply when I asked you and you said as I recall it, when you left, when you crossed the Kei you were coming to kill whites?  Did you say that?  Did you say that, can you remember saying that?