Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Nofomela I'm taking you back to the house in Soweto where you found Mohabi Dibali.   When you abducted him did he resist, what happened in the house?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

<UNKNOWN>: What did he do?

ANSWER: As far as I can remember him not wanting to go, the first thing was I was surprised when we found that he had hidden himself and also when we left with him, he tried to resist but he seemed more afraid, he was coming along but not of his own free will.

<UNKNOWN>: Was anything done to him in the house to make him give in and accompany you people?

ANSWER: I think Joe was carrying a gun and I also carried a gun, between the two of us, one of us produced a firearm as far as I can remember.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: He was slapped as far as I can remember and there was something else that was done to him to try and force him to come out of the house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The thing that I want you to tell this Committee, the thing that you did to him in the house, you were present.

ANSWER: As I say I had a firearm, one of us had a firearm and I think we threatened him with the firearm and we also assaulted him.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible - no microphone).

ANSWER: I think Joe and I did assault him inside the house.

<UNKNOWN>: What did you do in the house in assaulting him?
4b	ANSWER: /...
MR MPSHE	94	A NOFOMELA

ANSWER: I cannot say what we did first and what we did secondly, but what I remember is that we assaulted him, what I'm sure of is that we assaulted him.

<UNKNOWN>: What did you use in assaulting him, yourself?

ANSWER: It's possible that we assaulted him using our fists or I could have kicked him.

<UNKNOWN>: ...use in assaulting him?

ANSWER: It's possible that he did something similar.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he just after being assaulted stand up and walk out with you to the car?

ANSWER: Joe was holding him bringing him and I was walking behind them and he could see that we had firearms and there was no way in which he could resist or try anything or attempt to escape.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Nofomela you were asked as to what caused him to give in, you said that the two of you had firearms and one of you produced the firearm and then you said to us you also slapped and then you went on to say there was something else again which caused him to come out.   Mr Mpshe asked you what was that other something else and then you go back and you tell us about the assault while we were eagerly waiting for that something else.

ANSWER: The other thing that I was referring to was that I could remember that we assaulted him.   I was asked who had assaulted him and what I had done and what I remember is that, I don't know who started assaulting him but what I do remember is that we assaulted him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You had already said that it was because one of you produced a firearm, you had already said that he was slapped which is assault and then you said there was something else again, and then you go back to assault which
4b	is /...
MR MPSHE	95	A NOFOMELA
is the second thing.

ANSWER: I don't understand what, where I am mistaken.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How did you and Mamasela handle him as you were going out, or drag him?

ANSWER: He was not dragging him, he was walking alongside him saying "we want our money, we want our money, let's go".  Joe was speaking saying that.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible - no microphone).

ANSWER: I assume that it's something that Joe made up as a story for us taking this person away to avoid saying to this person we've been sent here to abduct him, I think it's something that he fabricated himself by saying to this person "we want our money".   This girl that was there should be under the impression that he owed us money and that is why we came to fetch him and not think that we were police who had come to abduct him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...when you were walking with him out, in what state was he?

ANSWER: I cannot remember apart from the fact that he was afraid.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: ...in the house was he bleeding, injured or whatever?

ANSWER: This happened in a very short space of time, I did not notice whether he was bleeding or whether he was swollen anywhere.   I was walking behind him and Joe was holding him saying that we want our money and put him into the car and we left.  All I know is, all I remember is where he was swollen and he was bleeding was where we had taken him for interrogation.

<UNKNOWN>: ...you could not see in what state he was at the
4b	time /...
MR MPSHE	96	A NOFOMELA
time when you were moving out with him because you participated in the assault as Joe Mamasela grabbed him and walked with him you were following behind and you travelled in the same car with him.  You mean you couldn't see him at all from Soweto to Roodepoort, from Roodepoort to Zeerust, you can't tell whether he was bleeding or swollen or whatever?

ANSWER: Sir I cannot remember, I do not want to exaggerate or anything, I cannot remember, I did not pay any attention.  I did not notice, I do not want to answer something by speculating.

<UNKNOWN>: How long did the assault take place?

ANSWER: Sir as I said he was taken out of the house and even assaulted outside, it was quite some time because I said he even lost consciousness at some stage.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you say he endured the assault for an hour or so?

ANSWER: Probably less or approximately an hour.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman I think there's confusion now because the witness is now talking about the stage where Dibali lost consciousness and that was at the house at Zeerust, not at the house in Soweto.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I do not see any confusion here with respect, I'm still in the house in Soweto where they abducted this man, the initial assault.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: The witness indicates that he is still referring to the house in Soweto.
QUESTIONS BEING ASKED - INAUDIBLE AS SPEAKER HAS NO MICROPHONE

CHAIRPERSON: ...he was still at his house whilst he was being
4b	assaulted /...
MR MPSHE	97	A NOFOMELA
assaulted.

ANSWER: I said sir that this, he was severely assaulted at Zeerust, that is where he lost consciousness, in Soweto...(end of 4b)...he was assaulted because it took it happened in such a short space of time.   Zeerust is where he was severely assaulted and he was bleeding and he was swollen and where he lost consciousness.

<UNKNOWN>: Be that as it may.   I'm still with you, I'm taking you back into the house in Soweto where you took Mohabi, don't move to Zeerust I'll tell you where we are moving.   How long did the assault take place in Soweto in the house?

ANSWER: It was not a long time, it is something that happened over a very brief period because when we found him in the wardrobe it started there where we took him and dragged him outside.   That is where it started, shortly after we had found him it happened over a very brief period because we couldn't stay there too long for fear of the risk of people coming to the house.

<UNKNOWN>: Moving now from the house in Soweto...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No before you move away from the house, why did you indicate to the interpreter that when you spoke of loss of consciousness he was still at the house?   Why did you give that impression to the interpreter because that's what the interpreter told us.

ANSWER: I would say that I cannot hear what the interpreter is saying to you in English, I wouldn't know if she is saying what I am saying because the interpreter made sure of whether I was speaking about Soweto and Zeerust and that is where I indicated.   The incident to which I referred to where Dibali lost consciousness was in Zeerust
5a		and /...
MR MPSHE	98	A NOFOMELA
and not in Soweto.   It is possibly a communication gap.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Inaudible, no microphone).