Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir, in "expantiating" on this one, as I've earlier mentioned that no, as a unit, the thing which I came with this name, it was because of Mr van der Eck appeared on the TV, that no he wants to see the people who were involved in the laying of the mines.  I didn't know that no, Mr van der Eck, in which area where we were operating this thing, he stays.  No on that background, that's why I included Mr van der Eck.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's getting at, you've in your application form at page 30, you've singled out the van Eck family and Mr Ndlovu.  We know that besides those people, the van Ecks and Mr Ndlovu, there were other victims from the same campaign of laying landmines, for instance the De Nysschen family.  Why did you just mention these two names and not all the victims of all the explosions?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I know of this name from the newspapers which came out after, on the funeral, when Mr van der Eck was addressing the funeral, when he was out of the hospital, I started knowing and Mr Ndlovu's name, I also took it from there that also he was a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Will you accept that Mr Nondula, the previous applicant, he was convicted for the two incidents that you, in your written application, seem to apply for amnesty?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: But now you say that is wrong.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, I'm not saying that is wrong, we were a unit.  Mr Nondula, my comrade, he was arrested, I was not arrested.

MR WAGENER: But were you part of the same six?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Of the same twelve.

MR WAGENER: But not the same six?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Not the same six.

MR WAGENER: So you were not involved in the two incidents that you refer to on page 31, or am I mistaken?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I mean what Nondula he has applied and what he appeared this thing in Court for because he was shown the areas where this thing he operated, I mean it's according to the evidence which Nondula gave.  Me, I applied on the basis of people who got killed in the area because of the mines I laid.

MR WAGENER: Were you in the same smaller unit?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he wasn't the same as Nondula.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  Were you in the same smaller unit as Mr Mncube?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: He's not applying for these incidents that you refer to on page 31.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I don't know, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Because he was not involved.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I don't know, that he will answer himself.

MR WAGENER: When your unit of twelve, when you were briefed in Zimbabwe, I take it, by whom were you briefed?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: We were briefed by Mancheck.

MR WAGENER: Is that Julius Maliba?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I don't know that name.

MR WAGENER: Was he the chairman of the Zimbabwe Regional Politico Military Committee, Julius Maliba, alias Mancheck?  is that the person we refer to?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: If they say he's Julius Maliba, alias Mancheck, that's him.

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I'm reading from the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ANC submissions.

MR WAGENER: The May submission, page 54 on the Zimbabwe structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Page 54, I'll just write that down.  Thank you.

MR WAGENER: That's right.  What did he say?  What were you supposed to do on this mission?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: When he brief us, he told us of that area, those areas next to the border line, Soutpansberg specifically, as the military area.  That the community around there, it's organised into Commando structures, the rural Commando structures and our mission is to lay mines and the mines we had were the ...(indistinct) mines.  We took the order and we simply did that.

MR WAGENER: Where were you supposed to lay the mines?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: On the patrol roads.

MR WAGENER: Only the patrol roads?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Pardon?

MR WAGENER: Only patrol roads?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, the patrol roads.

MR WAGENER: So, if your colleague, Mr Nondula, and his unit laid mines not patrolled by the military, were they not following the orders?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Can you repeat that Sir?

MR WAGENER: I asked you, you said your orders were to lay mines on the roads patrolled by the military, okay?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Now I ask you, so if the other unit of Mr Nondula laid mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside the orders?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Nondula, he didn't say that this thing ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: I'm asking you, I'm asking you now.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, I won't answer for Nondula.  If you ask me about my unit, I think that will be okay.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  Yes.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Us, we laid mines in the patrol roads used by the military.

MR WAGENER: Well, I'm asking you if the other sub-unit laid mines not on roads used by the military, were they acting outside the orders given to the big unit?  That's my question.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Nondula said they laid mines in the patrol roads, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Yes, but I'm asking you and you're not answering my question.  If evidence will show that they planted mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside the orders of this Mancheck?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: That will be difficult for me to answer for somebody else.

MR WAGENER: But you were present when the orders were given to the twelve of you.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Well then you can answer the question.  It shouldn't be difficult.  It's a simple question.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Okay, I'll simply say this, Sir.  When we were given order, they said the area, it's organised into rural Commandos.  Everybody who's there is attached to this structure.

MR WAGENER: Are you serious with that answer?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I'm serious.

MR WAGENER: So the black labourers on the farms, were they also part of the structure?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I'll say sorry Sir for the labourer who was a victim of our actions.

MR WAGENER: But were they a target as well, these labourers?  Were they targets of yours?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, we were not specifically aiming at certain individuals, we were only attacking.  We laid the mines to the patrol road.  If the labourer he drove on top of this thing when he was driving through the patrol road, that's why I'm saying, I'm sorry for that.

MR WAGENER: But we've now had a long debate and you still haven't answered my question.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Sir, what's your question?

MR WAGENER: For the fourth time, the question is, you were present when Mancheck gave instructions.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And you told us that the instructions were that mines should be laid on roads used by the military.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Now the question is, if the other sub-unit, group of six, laid mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside these orders given by Mancheck?  That's the question.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I think I've answered that one, Sir.

MR WAGENER: No you haven't.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, I've answered that one.

MR WAGENER: Was it a yes or a no?  You haven't answered the question, Sir.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I've answered it.

MR WAGENER: Well, repeat your answer please.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't need to, we've heard what he's said Mr Wagener, perhaps you can carry on asking, but we don't need to have it repeated, we've got it written down here.

MR WAGENER: Chairman, maybe I'm then a stupid lawyer, but I didn't hear what he said as being an answer to my question.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't in a yes or no form.

MR WAGENER: Well it was no answer at all to the question put.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you can use that in argument, we don't have to have him repeating what he's just said.