Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean she did not want to co-operate, what co-operation did you expect from her?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: We instructed her to sit down and not to move but she decided to move nevertheless and I ran after her and grabbed her.  She still struggled to free herself, that's when I started assaulting her and Cook also took part in the assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chairperson.
	You deny that you shot at the deceased is that correct?  You still maintain that it wasn't you?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I never shot the deceased.

ADV PRIOR: But you knew that she would be - there was a likelihood or a chance that she would be killed because you took weapons with?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes we did have firearms but it was not our intention to kill her.

ADV PRIOR: Well just explain to me, what are you asking - are you asking for amnesty for the murder or the killing of the deceased?   That's what you're asking for amnesty for?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Now you say that you'd been given instructions in January of '94 to go to this specific house and rob weapons, is that correct?  Mogaga had given you instructions in January?  Was it to go to this specific house in Brakpan?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct because he went there first and thereafter he went with Able and he showed the place to Able.

ADV PRIOR: And then you all went the day before the actual shooting and you also satisfied yourself that that was the right target?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: But the previous day, the day before you went there posing as inspectors from the Department of Labour, did you not?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: You never made enquiries about firearms did you on that day?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: No we did not because there were people who were already suspecting us and we didn't want to ask too many questions.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say there already were people who were suspecting you?  Suspecting you of what and how did you know there were already people who were suspecting you?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: The woman who was present on that particular day, she said that she did not trust us.

CHAIRPERSON: And this she said on the 5th of May was it?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the first time that you became aware that somebody was suspecting you so how can you say that already on the 5th you knew that people were already suspecting you of something?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes it does happen that when you get to a place even if it's for the first time maybe you look suspicious or the person just doesn't trust you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlelesi, you are giving evidence and you are saying you already knew it was within your personal knowledge that you had been suspected.  How could you have known that, how could that have been within your personal knowledge?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: We were already there inside the yard, that is on that particular day, we were at the particular place.

CHAIRPERSON: You are being asked about the 5th May and you have stated that by then you knew you knew you were being suspected.  How could you have known on the 5th May that you have been suspected?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: We got a certain woman.  She told us that even if we can say we are inspectors but she suspected that we were not but we could continue asking questions, that is why I say she already suspected us or she was suspecting us that we were not inspectors.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you may proceed.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Mr Phineas Mokoena was the man whose vehicle you hired to take you to that house is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you told him that you required his vehicle to go and fetch some property that was at that place, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: It wasn't true, was it?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you also tried to influence Mr Mokoena to abscond in other words not to give evidence against you at your trial, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: What I find strange that on the 6th May, weren't the elections already been held?  On the 27th April, the elections was the matter of world news, the whole world was focused on this country.  You must have been aware of that event is that not so?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes I did get to know about that.

ADV PRIOR: And as it was suggested, as it was indicated by your counsel, in January I think the PAC had suspended the armed struggle, it had at least made an announcement and that participation in the elections was to go full ahead?  Were you aware of that announcement by the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: As I've already explained that as I was still a new recruit and I did not know a number of things within the organisation, even the issue of the suspension of the armed struggle was known to me at a later stage.  Probably the commander knew but he never gave a specific instruction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just - well Madam Chair, I just want to correct something which was done, I'm - so even the Committee did not correct me, I think I mislead you during my - I thought that it was 6th April when I said 21 days, in fact I should have said after the election so I think I made a mistake there Madam Chair.  But I wanted to stress it was after even the elections what happened, thank you.

ADV PRIOR: I'm indebted to Mr Mbandazayo, I think it's clear that he made a mistake.
	Did you vote on the 27th April?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: No I did not.

ADV PRIOR: What political objective were you trying to achieve by robbing this home and killing this old woman, 83 years of age I understand when she died?  Can you explain to us what the political objective was and if you can do that maybe also explain to the Committee how this act of yours on the 6th May furthered that political objective?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: As I've already explained that I was still a new recruit.  I acted under instructions that were issued to me by my commander, Moses Mogagi.  I was going to establish a lot of things thereafter.  It's not easy to know a lot of things if you're not a member of a particular organisation but once you join the organisation you are briefed, you learn a lot about the organisation as well the organisation's operations and guidelines or principles.

ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible] answer, I'm asking you specifically what was your political objective and how did robbing and or killing this woman further that political objective, if you had one?

MR MALAN: Mr Prior, I think the applicant made clear that he sees himself as having acted under orders, having joined and I think that was his reply.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Prior, just on that point?
	Mr Hlelesi, are you being honest when you respond in that fashion now when you are giving your viva voce evidence?  Are you being honest when you say you were acting on instructions and knew nothing?  Are you being honest with this Committee?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes I am being honest because I took an oath that I'm going to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you remember when you also completed your application form, you completed that after having taken an oath, the application form?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Pursuant to that application, the Amnesty Committee on the 29th April 1998 wrote a letter to you in which it addressed certain questions to you, is that not so?
...[inaudible] you responded on the 5th October 1998 responding specifically to questions which had been put to you by the Amnesty Committee, is that not so?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] response you were still being honest with the Amnesty Committee, am I correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.