Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MR DE KLERK: You can go ahead.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would like to say to the victims that as I am here before the Commission I am here so that they must know as to who attacked and injured their relatives.  They shall know that it's me and that I regret that I injured or killed their relatives.  It was not my intention to injure or kill them and I ask for forgiveness.

MR DE KLERK: Why, during this attack, were there women and children injured and killed?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Please repeat the question.

MR DE KLERK: During this attack there were women and children injured and killed, why did that happen?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: The reason I insist on is that as we were many we were different in viewing things so we also had some arguments as to what should be done and what should not be done, and when we were attacking it wasn't clear whether some of the victims were male or female, however it was discovered after the attack that it was a female or male.  However when we found that it was women myself personally I wasn't involved in attacking such people.  As I said we couldn't clearly distinguish between male and females at that time, because when we come to a person we all rush towards an attacking and injuring the person, we were so many. This is the reason why I am here because I didn't intend to harm or injure females.

CHAIRPERSON: One of the persons killed was a three year-old child, do you seriously say you couldn't distinguish between babies like that and grown men?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As I have explained we were not of the same conscience and we were divided.  I don't know how to put it before the Commission but we have different views among our colleagues and friends.  I would say we were different and we were arguing and were trying to stop each other from committing some other acts.

MR DE KLERK: Did this attack take place at night?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes it was from half past six until one.

MR DE KLERK: As the group that you were in attacked the houses, was it easy to identify targets or did you sometimes merely shoot indiscriminately at the houses?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: While we were running around trying to attack them we were not that secure.  We were also afraid that they might attack us.  Therefore we ran towards - I mean surrounding the houses with firearms and we will shoot when we enter the place.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi when you did that didn't you foresee the possibility of children and women being present at the houses you were attacking?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As I have explained before the knowledge as to whether women were inside was not in our mind because we thought women won't be around and we won't find them and we were surprised when we found that there had been women.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew people lived in these houses, these were their homes.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes we knew, however, even the camps were around the homesteads, some homesteads were used as camps.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Used as camps for what, to house women at half past six in the evening?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I mean camps of ANC members, they used to camp in some of the homesteads.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But why were you not expecting to find women at half past six when you launched your attack? That is the question that I want to know.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Please repeat the question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you not expect to find women at the houses which were attacked at half past six in the evening?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I will persist and say that when we attacked we were also demoralised and we were not sure whether there were women inside those houses, we were not sure whether there will be women.  We were just afraid and surprised when we found that there were women, and that's why we came here to ask for amnesty.  It also surprised us that there were women.

MR DE KLERK: During the attacks on your own people of your area, were there ever women injured or killed, children injured or killed at any stage?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes there were.

MR DE KLERK: Did this happen regularly during the attacks on each group on the other?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: They attacked us first.  They killed a child, a grandmother and one mother.  So it was so easy so when they attacked us they could injure anyone, however, when we attacked it was the first time that women were injured.

MR DE KLERK: How did you feel after these people were attacked, your people have been attacked, how did you feel about that?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I was hurt and I couldn't foresee a good future because of the rate at which they were killing us.  It looked as though there were people who were not morally conscious therefore I decided to join and fight for revenge.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of your people had been killed, can you give us an estimate?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: There are many and I would say even now so many people were killed I can't explain how many but there were many, more than 200 people were killed.

MR DE KLERK: Is there anything else Mr Gumbi that you want to tell the Commission?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I would like to explain a few things.

MR DE KLERK: Go ahead.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would like to explain before the Commission that I would like to give the Commission a very clear picture about our area.  It was a very violent area and people were fighting each other.  Some of our fellow members died and that destroyed our morale and our conscious.  I am trying to give a picture that will help the Commission at the end of the hearing that there was intense fighting although there wasn't a very good reason as to why people should fight because they were ANC members and IFP members live in one place.  And that's all I want to tell the Commission.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi you have stated that the ANC people attacked you, I think they attacked you first at which attack a grandmother and a mother was killed, when was this attack, when did it take place?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: There were two fights.  As I've said it started during February.  This happened during April.  At that time where we had to open a case no one was killed, only one person was injured.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I actually have it in my notes that when the attack took place for the first time a grandmother and a mother was killed, is that incorrect?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I was just explaining as to how many people - when I was asked whether children were killed I was saying that the grandmothers died before.  It wasn't on that particular day.  On the date we were attacked only one person was injured and that's what gave us a reason to go and attack them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But now when did this grandmother and the mother get killed, was it in April or February 1991?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It was somewhere February or March I am not sure as to which month.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was this your own grandmother?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: No I will be lying.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it a relative?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR DE KLERK: Just lastly, prior to this attack, please just explain to the Commission what happened prior to the attack, how did it come to that you decided to attack?  Where did you group?  Who made the decisions?  Please be specific about that.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: When they attacked us we used to blow a whistle so that people could come together.  When we blow the whistles we normally meet because we knew people are going to attack us.  We are not expecting them but after that, after the whistles were blown we guarded, Bangi came with a view that we should attack them.  He too was not the only one.  It was a popular feeling among us that we have to attack them but he's the one who came with the view.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he, what does he do?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: You mean Bangi?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: He's one of our brothers staying in our area.  He wasn't doing anything.  He passed away.

MR DE KLERK: Was he any leader figure of any sort?