Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That depended on him, on how he had positioned himself when I called out "grenade!".  That is why I don't want to answer for him, I don't want to account on how far he was because I did not look at him.  The last time I saw him was when we were going inside the house.  He is the one who will explain how far he was from me when I was calling out "grenade!" and how he could be able to see him.

MR MNQANDI: The first time when the deceased opened the door holding the grenade, can you tell us how far he was from you as you were standing opposite the door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was not far, he was near because I was standing towards the wall of the passage and then he opened that door on his direction.

JUDGE MILLER: Perhaps if you could indicate a distance in this room.  When you saw the deceased with the grenade in his hand, approximately how far away was he from you?  If you can just indicate a distance.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As I am saying, when we opened that door ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: No I mean you've told us, but we don't know how wide the passage is, if you could just point out more-or-less how far he was from you.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When he was opening the door, I think maybe he was in the corner of this table.

JUDGE MILLER: Approximately what, three paces, two paces.

MR MNQANDI: About three paces, yes.

JUDGE MILLER: Two to three paces. - perhaps two paces.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that the door at which you entered and the other door are directly opposite each other.

JUDGE MILLER: Is that the kitchen door?

MR MNQANDI: No, it's another one.

JUDGE MILLER: Oh the other one.  On either side of the passage?

MR MNQANDI: They are on either side of the passage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is that possible?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It is possible, but it's not directly opposite because I was not standing towards the door when I was standing there, I was standing towards the wall but there was a door next to me but it's not directly opposite.  Even though I am not staying there, maybe when I saw it it was not like that.

MR MNQANDI: After - how many shots were fired?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I heard several shots, but I didn't count how many, but there were several shots.

MR MNQANDI: And they were all coming from your colleague's firearm?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, they were coming from my colleague's firearm.

MR MNQANDI: Did you yourself have any chance to fire any shots?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No.

MR MNQANDI: What prevented you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When I took cover at that time and the position that I was in negotiating, I was not waiting for something like that to happen and when I took cover because I saw the grenade, I wanted to save my life and then I waited for something that was going to follow.  So I did not shoot, I went to the left side taking cover and waiting for something that would follow, and then I heard a gunshot afterwards and then a handgrenade after that.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know how long the shooting took?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was only seconds, it was only a few seconds.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that when you came to the deceased's homestead you were in fact holding onto the deceased, he was not walking on his own.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is not true, there was no need for us to do that.

MR MNQANDI: And I'm further instructed that when you came there was a man who asked you what the purpose of your visit was and who wanted to get inside the house with you but was prevented from doing so.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I did meet that man or talk to him, maybe my colleague, the one who was behind me, saw him and spoke to him, but I did not speak to that man, I did not see him.

MR MNQANDI: I'm further instructed that in fact there were no weapons inside the house and any weapons that were used on that day might have been weapons that were brought by yourselves.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When we went to that house we were told that there were weapons inside the house and after that I got the report that there weapons that were found when the house was searched.  I didn't search that house.  After all this incident happened I tried to find ways, or I tried to call the police but I found out that there were grenades that were found after the house was being searched.  But what I'm sure of is I saw the handgrenade on his hand, so if there's someone who's saying there was no handgrenade there, there was nothing else that blasted on his hand but the handgrenade.

MR MNQANDI: I find it very strange that you, Mr Gumengu had instructions to kill the deceased, who was the person who was unable to fire a single shot on that day.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It is not strange to me because I knew my time, I knew that I would do that when I find the opportunity, so the situation at that time did not allow me to do that.  Maybe if he was arrested on that day and released on the next day or the following year, I was going to continue with my job as per instructions.  And if I had gone there with the intention to shoot at him, I would reveal that here and say that I shot at him per instructions.
	So if I wanted to shoot at him I would have shot at him on the way, there was no need for me to take him to his home.  Even if he was arrested on that day and released, I would find the time to do as I was instructed.  Or if Capt Mfazwe changed the instructions and said that we must leave him, I would have done that.  So at that time the situation did not allow me to do so.  And other units had other instructions to arrest him, so I would not make a mistake of shooting a person who had already been arrested on the orders that he must be arrested.

MR MNQANDI: But you had orders to kill him anyway and you knew that you had indemnity from all the authorities, so I don't see what prevented you from killing him there.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: What prevented me is the situation, the situation did not allow me to do it at that time even though I was going to do it when the opportunity is right.  Yes, I was going to get indemnity, I was not going to be arrested, that is true because I was working for the government at that time.

MR MNQANDI: In fact I want to put it to you that after your failed attempt on the deceased, the second occasion was your way of making sure that you had executed your instructions - if there were instructions, and you did in fact kill the deceased on that day to prevent yourself from being prosecuted.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It is not like that, I do follow instructions and I was going to kill him when the opportunity was right, but not at that time because the situation was not right for me.

MR MNQANDI: I just want to go back to the incident when he opened the door and went inside, you say he opened the door and went inside and locked himself.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And after that he came back after a few seconds, holding a handgrenade.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Did you see whether the pin on the handgrenade was on or off?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I did not see whether the pin was on or off, what I saw was that he had a handgrenade on his hand and the position, the way he was holding it, he was not going to hand it over to us, he was preparing to throw the grenade.  That is why I called out and said "grenade!" and then I took cover.

MR MNQANDI: What colour is a grenade?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: All the colours are there in a grenade.

JUDGE MILLER: No, I think what Mr Mnqandi is asking you is, what colour was this particular grenade, the one that you saw in the deceased's hand, what colour was that one?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I saw a grenade on his hand, but because it was dark although there was light because of the window, the colour I saw was brownish.

MR MNQANDI: And this light that you were able to see the handgrenade from was the light that was coming through a window?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, it was a light coming through the window.