Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.  Mr Nosenga, with respect, I want to put it to you that when you initially made statements implicating the Police Officers, you did so because of a motive, and that is why you can't recall everything that you told Mr Kjellberg, because now you deny a lot of things which was said to him pertaining to the involvement of Police Officers.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the Police were involved, I am saying the Police were involved.    Those are the ones who were leading us on our way to Boipatong.  I don't know what you are trying to say.  Are you trying to exonerate the Police and leaders of Inkatha?  They were present on the evening of the attack.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, why would Mr Kjellberg make mistakes like these, let me list them for you.  Just in one paragraph, and it pertains to a paragraph where you implicate the Police.  Firstly according to what you told him, it was a big hall.  You say no, it was a stadium.  Secondly according to you Mtwana, that is what you told Kjellberg,  Mtwana Zulu held a speech - would you just bear with me - now you deny it.  Thirdly, according to you a certain Danie was there, that is when you made the statement to Mr Kjellberg, today you deny it.  And Danie was not only there, he also made a speech, today you deny it.  It appears to me that you had a motive previously to implicate as many people as possible and that you have forgotten which facts you conveyed to the Investigating Unit, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true, there were Police.  Peens was present at the stadium not in the hall.

MR LOWIES: Was a reason given, I know that they said Boipatong must be attack, was a reason given by Themba Khosa for the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that I only heard him agreeing with the suggestion by Gatchene and the induna's that Boipatong should be attacked.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody say that the dogs or the insects should be killed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Who said so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall very well, but he said dogs should be killed.  He said everybody who was residing at Boipatong should be killed.

MR LOWIES: Who said this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: I still want to know what was the reason for the attack?  Was that conveyed to you, yes or no?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, he has repeatedly told us that he was not told the reason for the attack.

MR LOWIES: Did Themba Khosa not say that many members of Inkatha were killed in the location, and that that was the reason for the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.  I don't.

MR LOWIES: Did Themba Khosa refer to the residents as dogs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know exactly who said dogs should be killed, but I cannot recall who exactly.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody say that the residents of Boipatong are not human beings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know.  I just know that somebody said dogs should be killed.

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement in paragraph 6 you say
"... Themba Khosa also told us to kill the dogs, again referring to Boipatong residents, because they were not human beings ...",
	now you say you don't know about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: And according to you Mr Peens did not speak on that occasion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know quite well, I cannot remember.

MR LOWIES: Because on Monday when led by your Counsel, you said that Peens spoke in Afrikaans which was translated?  It is also in the statement of Kjellberg?  It is not true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: So if I put it to you as a fact Mr Peens did not speak there, you cannot deny it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I do not recall, but Peens was present at the meeting at the stadium at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: You cannot recall anything that he said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot recall.

MR LOWIES: Now according to this statement, according to your statement Peens and Danie both said there that they would supply weapons.  You deny that Danie was there at all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the one person that I saw was Peens.

MR LOWIES: Was anything said about Chief Buthelezi at the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I beg your pardon, did you see Danie at that meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did.

MR LOWIES: Chair, may I enquire, Danie or Darkie?

CHAIRPERSON: Danie.

MR LOWIES: But Mr Nosenga, you have just said on two previous occasions, you did not see him there, now to the Chairman you say he was there, what is the situation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not get you quite well, I did not understand him quite well, Peens was present.  Peens was present, not Danie.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this, Danie and Darkie, are these two different people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Darkie is a black person, Peens and Danie are white people and Darkie is Darkie Chonco and then there is Danie and Peens.  Peens and Danie are working for the Murder and Robbery Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: And Darkie, this is Darkie Chonco?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Was Danie present at the meeting, did you see him at the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Peens.  Peens was present.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LOWIES: Now in another paragraph you still said, you still say the following
"... Peens and Danie also said that they would supply Rooikop with weapons ...",
	so both of them spoke according to the statement made to Mr Kjellberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I reject that.  Peens was present at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: So must I then take it that nothing was said regarding Peens and weapons, whether he would supply weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I still maintain that I did not hear Peens talking.  There are people who spoke to the effect that dogs should be killed, but I cannot recall who.

MR LOWIES: But we are moving on now sir, you must listen to the question.  Is it your version that nothing was said regarding the supply of weapons by Peens?  In other words that Peens would supply weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall very well, but Peens was at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: So to summarise, you would not know what Peens was doing there as you sit here today, you just saw him there, am I correct?  If not, please indicate sir.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just saw him standing there with Themba Khosa.

MR LOWIES: In this statement to Mr Kjellberg you state that
"... I know that Themba Khosa used to deliver guns to the hostel ...",
	do you agree with this portion of your statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: So, Themba Khosa never used to deliver guns to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know sir, I would not say he did or not.  He used to come to the hostel even though not every day.

MR LOWIES: Your statement is quite clear and I quote
"... I know that Themba Khosa used to deliver guns to the hostel ...",
	you deny the correctness of your knowledge?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Then you go on, these guns, we used to keep them in the ceiling.

MR LAX: Sorry, just stop for a second please.  You guys are not pressing the button correctly, we are getting the Zulu translation on the English channel, if you can just be aware of that please.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, that will assist.  What do you say about this statement
"... we used to keep them in the ceiling ..."?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The guns used to be hidden in the ceiling, it is a rotten ceiling near the showers at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody say at that stage that the Police would be assisting or not?  Assisting in the attack?