Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I want to remind the Committee that this case we have just finished leading evidence on is one of these cases where the Committee has been hammering the PAC to make submissions regarding the policy of the PAC in cases of this nature, and when I was looking at the record it also reminded me that the Chairperson always wanted and we were trying all our best to get the PAC to come across about its policy regarding incidents of this nature and the submission is before the Committee, the submission which was made by the PAC and it clarified its policy with regard to white persons as targets.  
	I don't want, Chairperson, to go to that document, it's well-known to the Members, but I would like to say that during the week I quoted a quotation from Sobukwe who PAC always, they always interpreted the documents which were written by him and also his speeches, and it was from there, even the quotation which is there in the submission which I quoted in full during the week, it was on Tuesday, that quotation.
	What I'm trying to say is that it's clear that what was done by Mr Dolo and the late Makuala on the day in question was within the framework of the PAC policy and APLA.
	Chairperson and Honourable Members, you will recall that Dolo was a regional commander and as such he was in a higher position than ordinary commanders who commands a unit to attack.  He also had a discretion to identify the targets and he was also as evidence was led, that he was also, had a task of training and giving lessons to new recruits and Sterkspruit was one of the places where he was doing this training with the recruits and then they would be redeployed somewhere by other people relevant and as such he was in a much higher position.  	And also when it comes to this, he told the Committee that indeed he was reporting to Letklapa Mpahlele with regard to this incident, before and after the incident.  And as such it has the blessing, if one looks then to the policy of the PAC as it also was put in their submission.  So what I'm getting at is that it was what they did they did and they believed that what they were doing was the benefit, was for the benefit of their organisation.
	Chairperson, I have before me a document which was called Azania Combat, it was the mouthpiece of the PAC military wing, and in this document there are various newspaper reports and also some radio talk shows.  In one of those radio talk shows the then national organiser of PAC was called in Radio Metro talk back show, that what is their position with regard to APLA attacking, then it was called soft targets, and he made it clear, Maxwell Nmatsibanane(?) that they will never condemn APLA for what it's doing because of the roll the enemy, of the role played by the enemy in the settler community.  That is how he put it.
	And it was the same case when Sabelo Pama came inside the country, he was asked about these incidents and he explained that according to them when it comes to South Africa, inasmuch as he recognised that they are things like soft targets, but when it comes to South Africa he does not think that it applies because from tender age white people are taught how to handle a gun and as such the South African community is, white community is militarised and as such they are targets.  	And that was strengthened by one of the prominent white academics in South Africa, Gary van Staden.  This appeared published on the Saturday Star of the 5th December 1992 and I would like to quote what he said.  He was referring to then what was the first so-called on the white civilian soft targets, the  Golf Club incident.
"While he could have articulated his position a little better, PAC Secretary-General, Benny Alexander was quite right to suggest that it was necessary for more white South Africans to die if the problem of political violence is to receive the attention it demands.  While I remain aware that the next victim could be me, or worse my wife or child, we need to be logical and not emotional in addressing the issue of political violence.
			Despite their protestation most white Africans and certainly the Security Forces and the Government, do not respond to the deaths of black victims with nearly as much passion as followed in King William's Town killings.  To dismiss the thousands of township deaths as mere black on black violence is callous in the extreme and morally reprehensible.  
			Only when all South Africans respond with a deeply felt outrage and anger at each and every death, only when the media begin to print the detail of each and every death with the same depth as according to King William's Town victim, will the message begin to penetrate that we ordinary South Africans of all races gave no-one the right to murder in our name."
	Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I think Gary van Staden sums up, though this was a very sort passage from what he said, unfortunately I wanted to lay my hands on the paper he presented in Harare regarding this aspect, where he was in the delegation of the media, journalists, BLA(?) to meet APLA outside, it's where he told them that even if I'm a victim but you have to hit at the white South Africans in order to, for them to realise that it is not only happening in the black areas.
	So what I'm trying to get is that even some of the white people, I want to use that name to emphasise what I'm trying to put across, were aware of some of these things and they accepted that as it was put that directly or indirectly, white South Africans benefitted from the oppression of the black people.  There is no doubt that there were those who were on the side, but because of the situation in which ...(indistinct) people were sceptical to accept that, because directly or indirectly he was a beneficiary.
	And as such, Chairperson, it was, if you take now ordinary cadres who are not policy-makers, which I must conceded that sometimes it was even difficult to PAC to explain the whites, the name settler, and they were at pains when they are pressed to do that.  Now would one ask a question, how much more to an unsophisticated member or follower or cadre who some of them did not go far at school when they have to interpret that and put that into operation.
	And it's on that basis that you find that there were incidents like this, because they have to put into operation, they were told in simple language that the white person is your enemy.  The only thing they saw was the colour.  
	Chairperson, it would be said, one would argue that it is racist because ...(indistinct), I don't thinks so.  I would be the first one to argue, I'll concede where it's necessary to concede.  
	It so happened that the people who were oppressing black people were white in colour and it's the same when it comes to black people  who oppressed were black in colour.  Because if you look at what was, APLA did in the early '60's and also late, that collaborators, even black policemen were killed because they regarded them as part of the system.  Chiefs were killed by Pohko because he was a foreigner of APLA.  Why did they kill them if their struggle was racist, instead of directing to the whites?  Because they regarded them as collaborators.  In that way they  put them as part and parcel of the oppressive system.
	And as such, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, it is therefore my humble submission that the cadres on the ground applied the policy to the letter and they were not policy-makers when it comes to decisions like this, that the person who was oppressing you is a white person and as such if you want your liberation and if you want your land, you have to kill them, you have to hit at them.  That is the only way you will be able to regain your land.   
	As Dolo put it then that, they put it that it was taken through the barrel of a gun, then if you wanted it you have to fight.
	Chairperson, I don't want to bore you with my submission.  On that basis it is therefore my humble submission that the applicant, the remaining applicant, Phila Dolo should be granted amnesty as he has satisfied all the requirements of the Act under which this Committee exists.  Thank you, Chairperson.