Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: I just have one small question and I think you have already maybe answered it in the course of your answering Dumisa Ntsebeza's question which is, how did you feel when you were telling the kind of stories that you were telling, when say you say Zinzi or whatever, I mean the kind of stories that you told, when you got back home what did you say to your wife?  I mean I suppose you have a wife - your family, I mean what did you say, I have had this or that kind of day in the office sweetheart?  I have told the world that Winnie Mandela is a nymphomaniac and the world has believed me, how did you feel just as a human being?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Chairperson at the time I saw it, the actions that we carried out and the things that I did as part of a psychological war.  I saw it as justified.  My personal conviction was that I was fighting satanic, godless communism, that people like Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and yourself and many other people were instruments of this totalitarian system which was approaching in South Africa.  I believed also that we were doing it for many years, and I've since seen the light, that we were doing it, fighting a religious war, almost a Jihad on behalf of Christianity to oppose people like yourself and the liberation movements.  It was only in fact after the release of President Mandela where the myths that we had grown up with and everything that we had learnt and that that the bubble started to burst and I, and many of my colleagues started to see the other side of the coin.

DR BORAINE: Ms Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Erasmus I would just like you to confirm that you've worked for the following people in Soweto at the so-called security branch in Soweto.  Colonel - General E Coetzee?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I know him, I can't recall that I have ever had direct dealings with him on a personal basis.

YASMINE SOOKA: Brigadier Nienaber?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I know his name but once again I have no personal dealings with him.

YASMINE SOOKA: Major Jan Potgieter?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I know his name but no personal - I've met him.

YASMINE SOOKA: (...indistinct) du Toit?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: It doesn't ring a bell.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Erasmus ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson may I just before conclusion make one single request.

DR BORAINE: You may but I was just about to ask him a question and as soon as I have I will recognise you.  Thank you.  I know it's unusual but I am actually acting chair.  Mr Erasmus page 2 of your statement, paragraph 4 you state that it was after your course in October 1990 and President Mandela was already out of prison so it took you a while to come to see the light because you actually describe him as one of the things you were doing was describing him as being senile and that he had no control over the radical ANC cadres and so on, but that's beside the point.  You state on paragraph 4,
"Radical elements within the ANC had to be identified as targets"
and you give the names, then you say,
"....and others had to be neutralised at all costs and obviously by any means possible".
Now those are very strong words, loaded words, target, neutralised at all costs, obviously by any means, now do you mean that?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Most definitely within the context of propaganda yes, anything went.  There was times that I was involved not even in the discreditation of people in the liberation movements,  of a serving member of Parliament for example, for which I was congratulated from above.  So it was a matter of striking out at random and using whatever information was available or whatever means possible to discredit people and I was involved in a lot of activities which I can recount involving these people including others as I have mentioned.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson it is the very first time we hear that Mr Richardson will deny that he was a police informant.  May we request that the Commission obtains sworn statements from police officers Brett and Grove who we are told handled this aspect of the R10 000.

DR BORAINE: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson as far as I understand it we will be calling certain policemen namely Mr Moodley, Mr Hesslinger, Mr Dempsey will appear to have first hand knowledge of this matter and they will be testifying under oath and this proposition can then be tested.  It may not be necessary to subpoena the other people but should we find it necessary we can, in liaison with my learned friend arrange a subpoena, since we are only due to run to next week Wednesday it will have to be for another occasion.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

DR BORAINE: Sorry I am still recognising - do you want to respond to that?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson even if it's only a sworn statement and we don't have an opportunity to have him subpoenaed and called for the hearing we would find it very useful, somebody with direct evidence having spoken to Jerry Richardson himself.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  We have taken note of that.

MR VALLY: We have noted it but as I say those three policemen we are calling will be able to give this kind of direct evidence that Mr - or will possibly be able to give it, I don't want to prejudge what they will say, but the information that Mr Semenya wants should he not be satisfied we can follow it up further.

DR BORAINE: Mr Richards.

MR RICHARDS: My only comment is that I find it surprising that my learned colleague is taken by surprise that the allegations are denied, they have never been admitted.  Thank you Chair.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  I just want to confer for a moment.  Mr Erasmus my apologies.  Do you wish to redirect?

MR CORNELIUS: I have got no reexamination.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Thank you very much indeed for your attendance and for your statement.  Thank you.  You may step down.
 Because it's raining and none of you want to go home, I am delighted to tell you that we have one last witness tonight for those of you who wish to stay and I crave the indulgence of all concerned who have been sitting here for a very long time.  This is a young man who has been hanging around the whole day waiting for his lawyer, his lawyer has not arrived I gather - I am talking about Mr Gift Ntombeni.  I am assuming that he is still here.  His statement was given to us I think yesterday, so he is....

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson I don't know whether I should address the objection that I have about this witness.  If Chairperson you recall the list of witnesses there is a Gift Mabelane who is there, not this particular witness and when the name Gift Mabelane was called this witness volunteered to come there without a statement and the information that we have is that this witness believes he is going to be given money for testifying.

DR BORAINE: He's got a hope.

MR SEMENYA: Now it might take us time to verify this data.  Maybe if this witness can stand down, let's investigate the information and so that I am able to deal with it.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya if we could do this I personally would be very grateful.  I would like to consult my learned colleague.