Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The job of attacking.  As we were going through on that road, we met with the Self Defence Units at the corner.  Damarra started shooting and the others followed those who had firearms.
	The Self Defence Units shot back.  Damarra took another direction with his group, going towards the direction of the shops.  I took another direction, taking that same street as we had used as we were coming in.  
	I participated, I also shot at the Self Defence Units.  After shooting I left.  I shot pointing at the houses, directing at the houses.

MR STRYDOM: Did you shoot any person in Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see if anybody got killed in Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I did not get into the houses, I was just walking in the streets.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see if anyone of the attackers stole goods in Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I saw them.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, what happened to your shotgun?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Damarra instructed me to give him the firearms.  He was about to hide them.  I asked Serame why is, this gentleman who wants my firearm, where does he say and Serame said this person is also living in that same yard.  I gave him my firearm.

MR STRYDOM: The following day, were you at the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was there.

MR STRYDOM: At that time did you know Themba Khosa?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I knew him as I used to see him on TV.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see him there on the following day?  That's now the day after the attack.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I saw him.

MR STRYDOM: Did you hear him issuing a warning that certain bloody clothes should be burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see that some of the goods that were stolen in Boipatong got burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat your question, Sir?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Did you see that stolen goods were burnt?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see that.

MR STRYDOM: Do  you know Mr Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know him very well.

MR STRYDOM: Did he share a room with you in the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now when you started living in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992, was Mr Nosenga there already or not?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, he was not there.

MR STRYDOM: When did he come to the hostel, according to you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He came after the Boipatong incident.

MR STRYDOM: Are you certain about that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am certain about that.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from him, can you remember the names of other people that also shared that room?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I can still remember them.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the names of the other people?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The first one is Papie.

MR STRYDOM: Another name if you can.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: And Tsanana, Hollie Bajosi.

MR STRYDOM: Hollie Bajosi was a State witness at the trial, is that right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Any other names?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Serame Mokoena and Skumbuzo.

MR STRYDOM: Is that all the names you can remember?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, for now those are the only names that I can remember.

MR STRYDOM: Before Mr Nosenga moved into the hostel, did you know him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: When were you arrested for this Boipatong incident?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: If I'm not mistaken I think it was on the 25th of September 1992.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember the policeman who came here by the name of Peens?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I just saw them for the very first time on Friday.

MR STRYDOM: Both of them?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a policeman by the name of Shaka?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know  him.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know Shaka from?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I used to see him at Tekani's garage.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were moving through Boipatong and whilst you were busy with the attack, did you see any police or military vehicles in Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see any military vehicles or police vehicles.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of that night of the attack, did you see any vehicles at any stage?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, M'am.

MS TANZER: When you arrived at the hostel, who allocated you a room?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: If I'm not mistaken I think it was Mr Mthembu.

MS TANZER: Were you presented to any committee upon your arrival?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Were you questioned about your political affiliations when you arrived at the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat the question, M'am.

MS TANZER: Were you questioned by anyone about your political affiliations when you arrived at the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot remember.

MS TANZER: You were simply given a room and invited into the hostel without any questioning or any interrogation?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I remember when we arrived at the gate, Jabulani issued his card, his membership card, IFP membership card.  I think Mr Mthembu asked us something ...(intervention)

MS TANZER: What time about did you hear the siren?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was in the evening.

MS TANZER: Was it the early evening or the late evening?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I think the time was about nine.

MS TANZER: When you arrived at the stadium, was anybody speaking to you, were there any speeches being made?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: When you arrived at the stadium, did you notice any weapons lying on the floor or anywhere, to be taken by the hostel residents?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Was the pump-gun that you used that night, did that belong to you or did you bring that with Jabulani to the hostel that afternoon?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was brought by Jabulani in the evening and he said he was giving it to me, it would be mine thereafter.

MS TANZER: And as you entered the hostel, did they not search you or anything?  Did they not try to search for weapons or something?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: These three pump-guns, Jabulani left with a guy who was, they left with a guy in a car and they went to fetch them in the hostel.  I asked him where did he get the pump-guns, he told me that he had bought the pump-guns from the Sebokeng hostel.

MS TANZER: How many people would you say attacked Boipatong that night?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Are you talking about the residents of Kwamadala hostel or the people who were attacked?

MS TANZER: No, the Kwamadala hostel, the attackers.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Plus-minus 300.

MS TANZER: Did you notice anyone wearing a balaclava on their face or covering their face in any manner that night?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, no-one was like that.

MS TANZER: Did you notice any white people participating in the attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Can you remember when about did Nosenga join the hostel after the attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot remember whether he came after weeks or after a month, I just cannot remember.

MS TANZER: Well when he arrived, was he only able to speak Sotho?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He came to us and he was speaking in Sotho.

MS TANZER: So how did you communicate with him?