Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-12

CHAIRPERSON: Vara.  I will have to clarify that from administration whether it is Vaga or Vara.

DR RANDERA: Vara, it says Vara here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but in Xhosa it could be Vaga.

DR RANDERA: I see, okay, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Our next witness is Ntobela Vara.

DR RANDERA: Is this the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Vara.

DR RANDERA: Vara is the surname.

CHAIRPERSON: We greet you Mr Vara, can you hear properly?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to hand over to Dr Randera to administer the oath.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Vara, if you will just repeat after me.

NTOBELA VARA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera is going to lead Mr Vara.

DR RANDERA: Mr Vara you are 26 years old?

NTOBELA VARA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: And you also live in Swanieville?

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

DR RANDERA: Sorry.  You also live in Swanieville?

NTOBELA VARA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: And you have presently ...... May 1991 when the
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attack on Swanieville took place.

NTOBELA VARA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell me what was your work at the time?

NTOBELA VARA: I was working as a mechanic.  That was my job.

DR RANDERA: And were you married then?

NTOBELA VARA: No, I was not married.

DR RANDERA: .......

NTOBELA VARA: I have only one child.

DR RANDERA: How old?

NTOBELA VARA: The child is ten years old.

DR RANDERA: So on the morning of the attack who was staying with you in the house?  Who was with you in the house?

NTOBELA VARA: There were three of us.  There were the three of us in the house.  My brother Tops and a friend of mine.

DR RANDERA: Can you just tell us in your own words what happened on that morning?

NTOBELA VARA: On that particular day we were in bed.  While we were still sleeping we heard gunfire outside.  I woke my brother up and asked if he could hear what was happening outside.  He woke up and I told him not to open the door.  We must first observe by looking through the window.  ... and we could see that people that were surrounding the shack, even the cars.  They said come out.  They were telling some insults.  That is what the people said.  We did not get a chance to go out of the shack.  They surrounded the shack.  My shack has a door made of zinc and they asked where is the door of this shack because they could not see the door.  That is how we escaped.  That is how we survived because they could not see the door.
 We heard the gunshots.  They were shooting.  When I peeped through the window I saw a white policeman which was 
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right in the police Casper.  I said Tops, we cannot go to that policeman for help because it looks like he is the one who is shooting.  Let us just stay here.  We will see what happens.  They were setting the shacks on fire and even the cars were set alight.

DR RANDERA: So you stayed in your shack all this time?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, there was no chance of going out because if we went out we were going to die.

DR RANDERA: Now, the other people who were attacking and burning the shacks, how many would you say there were?

NTOBELA VARA: When I looked at them through the window it was a lot of people.  If we can go out, the three of us, we would do nothing and we did not have weapons at the time.

DR RANDERA: In your statement you say you and some of your friends would go into Kagiso to patrol at night to protect people, protect people against the IFP.  Now in your opinion, the people that you saw outside the shacks, were they IFP people?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, they were IFP people.  They had that red cloth they use to put around their heads.

DR RANDERA: And besides attacking the shacks they were also attacking people?

NTOBELA VARA: They were attacking everything especially men in Swanieville.  It is only women that they were not interested in.

DR RANDERA: Ms Seroke said earlier on that 26 people died that night, but you in your statement say there was a white policeman.  I do not know whether there were others shooting at people as well.  You are clear about that?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, that is correct because this police Casper was next to my shack and this policeman was in that police
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Casper shooting.  The police Casper was not moving.

DR RANDERA: .......

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, he was wearing a police uniform.

DR RANDERA: Did you report the incident afterwards to the police or anybody else?

NTOBELA VARA: We were still confused because when this happened the people who were taking statements came and asked about what happened.  I told them that as I just told you right now.

DR RANDERA: You also mention that you know that people were charged and then acquitted in your statement.  Were you called to court at any time?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, I was once called.  We went to Johannesburg and we did not even say anything, but they said the case was dismissed.

DR RANDERA: I just want to ask one more question and this is related to this issue of The Men and Women group, Men and Women group, yes.  Were you part of either of those groups?

NTOBELA VARA: No, I was not a member of such groups.  I was a group of The Women's group.  I was a member of The Women's group.

DR RANDERA: So, .......

NTOBELA VARA: I was a member of the group that was called Women because that area that I was staying in, they use to refer to us as women.  It means I was one of them because of the area that I was staying in.

DR RANDERA: I have no more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Piet Meiring.

PROF MEIRING: I would like to ask a question or two about your family.  You told us in the beginning that you are married and that you have one child ten years old.  Is it a
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boy or a girl?

CHAIRPERSON: It is a girl.

PROF MEIRING: .......

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, she is in Ciskei.  She is attending school there.

PROF MEIRING: She is not with her mother.

NTOBELA VARA: We separated with the mother.  She is staying with my mother.

PROF MEIRING: In the Ciskei?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes.

PROF MEIRING: And what do you do?  What is your work at the moment?

NTOBELA VARA: What I do now?

PROF MEIRING: What are you doing at the moment?  Are you working?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, I am still a mechanic.

PROF MEIRING: ... that lives with your mother in the Ciskei; was she in Swanieville when the thing happened or was she with your mother in the Ciskei?

NTOBELA VARA: On that particular day she was with my sister-in-law.  She was not in that shack.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.  Those were my questions.

NTOBELA VARA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vara, I just want to ask you the same question that I asked the other witnesses.  What do you understand was the difference between The Men and The Women's group?  That is the first question.

NTOBELA VARA: I did not even care whether they call me a woman or what because I knew very well that I was a man.  I am a
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man, I am not a woman.

YASMINE SOOKA: Why do you think they made this distinction between the two groups?

NTOBELA VARA: That's what I don't know.  I am saying to you, I didn't even care whether they called me that, because I know that I am a man, I am not a woman.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were both groups part of the ANC?

NTOBELA VARA: It is only a person who knows himself or herself whether he or she is ANC or not. That I won't know.

MS SEROKE: Mr Vara, I just want to ask you this.  The way you look at this, do you think the people who are referred to as women, is it because they were cowards, that they cannot fight for themselves, and those who are referred to as men are the people who are capable of protecting the squatter camp?

NTOBELA VARA: Yes, that's what I think, because a man will never stand together with a woman.