Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It consisted of discussions and joint decision making.

MR DONAN: Decisions regarding what?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: About the threat facing the Republic.

MR DONAN: The Judicial Management Committees, did you have any connection with them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: What about Vlakplaas?  What was your relationship at any stage of your career with Vlakplaas?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I almost appointed as the commanding officer when I was in Pretoria but that in fact didn't happen.

MR DONAN: And when you were in the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: In respect of Vlakplaas, I was very far removed from it.

MR DONAN: Yes, but were you in communication with the operatives there?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: My communication was all done via the headquarters and from there onwards it would be referred to the necessary divisions.

MR DONAN: Did you ever bring the operatives to the Western Cape or were they ever used in the Western Cape?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I never brought them here but I requested them to come down here.

MR DONAN: And when was that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't remember.

MR DONAN: Why did you ask for them to be brought to the Western Cape?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: To identify terrorist who had infiltrated the country.

MR DONAN: What exactly was the nature of your request?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: To send people who could identify terrorists who were at that stage active in the Western Cape, that was that.

MR DONAN: What type of people?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Rehabilitated terrorists.

MR DONAN: And who was sent?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't recall.

MR DONAN: What prompted you to make this request.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The information at my disposal.

MR DONAN: What was that information?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That there were terrorists present in the Western Cape.

MR DONAN: Was that the full extent of your information?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: Did you know who the so-called terrorists were?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, if did I would have traced them and brought them before court.

MR DONAN: Why did you want to do that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Is that not common cause, there was an Act which provided that is was an offence.

MR DONAN: So that was one law that you did obey, you had to bring them before the courts?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The was the Act in force.

MR DONAN: I'm going to end off where I started off - you brought them before the courts after detaining them under Section 29, is that right?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not all of them.

MR DONAN: You would - if they didn't answer your questions, torture would be used at the discretion of the person who was interrogating them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is a generalisation, yes.

MR DONAN: So you would get whatever answers you needed from them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Normally, yes.

MR DONAN: And then you would tell them that if they wanted to improve their situation, they would go to a Magistrate and repeat exactly what you had told them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not to improve their situation Sir.

MR DONAN: Well do what?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I never told him what to say, if I was doing the interrogation I would have given him the choice.  If he wanted to make a confession that he could go to a Magistrate.

MR DONAN: What was the general practice among your security policeman, wasn't it to get them to repeat to a Magistrate what they had illicited under Section 29.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, if it amounted to a confession, they would have been taken to a Magistrate.

MR DONAN: Did people volunteer to go and repeat to a Magistrate ...[intervention]

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: However strange it may sound yes, that happened.

MR DONAN: And is this something that suddenly came to them after a period of detention under Section 29 - a revelation that they should go there ...[intervention]

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Sometimes and sometimes earlier.

MR DONAN: Sorry?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Sometime and sometimes earlier.

MR DONAN: And then this was - this repetition of what they had been told under threat of torture, was then presented in the courts?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not what they have been told.

MR DONAN: No, what they ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you're putting the questions fairly.  They had been questioned, interrogated - at some stage they decide to go to the Magistrate and make a statement.  The statement they make to the Magistrate need not be what they were told by their interrogators, isn't that what you're really trying to get at.

MR DONAN: No, no, with respect.  Then I'm definitely not being fair and not being clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DONAN: What they did in front of the Magistrates, was repeat what they had said to their interrogators under Section 29 and then that was put up in the trial as evidence.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: And the people who supported the freeness and voluntaries of that were people like Mr Benzien who systematically lied?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Everyone involved.

MR DONAN: Were all the security police involved in this system?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I said that everyone who was involved would have given evidence there.

MR DONAN: But that is the system they would have used?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: What ...[intervention]

MR DONAN: The procedure that I've just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We've had a lot of evidence on this really, haven't we already?

MR DONAN: Did you participate in this particular method?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: With regard to whom?

MR DONAN: In respect of presenting evidence to courts to convict people on the basis ...[intervention]

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I took many people to a Magistrate who wanted to give evidence.

MR DONAN: Of evidence that had been elicited by torture?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: And that was presented untruthfully to the ...[intervention]

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: But Mr Benzien says he has.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It is possibly so.

MR DONAN: Okay.  If the Committee will just bear with me.  I have no more questions thank you, for Mr Griebenauw.  I'm instructed to put on record our attitude to the psychologist but that's a separate matter.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Among those who had appeared on the previous occasion as victims as what had been done to them by Mr Benzien and who are opposing this application, are there any who are present here today who would like to put questions to this witness?  Mr Papier what would you say, what is your information in that regard?

MR PAPIER: Honourable Chair, my learned colleague Advocate Donan appears for the victims of torture, that is my understanding thank you Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are any question you wish to put to this witness?

MR BRINK: Just one or two Mr Chairman.
	Mr Griebenauw, you mentioned the question of pressure having been put upon the South African police, more particularly the security police, pressure to curb the unrest which was occurring in the Western Cape.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is so.

MR BRINK: Was pressure put on you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, on various opportunities.  If I can just describe this, it was when hand grenades hit the Western Cape - I was told that I had to get an answer, we cannot allow this any longer.

MR BRINK: Who said that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It was from one of the Generals at head office, I can unfortunately not remember his name.

MR BRINK: Were you reporting directly to head office in Pretoria?