Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Basson, can I ask you during the tea break to read through this, because Mr Pauw says in his book that he was given a copy of what we've called in these proceedings, what appears to be a "voorstudie" and he quotes at length from that document.  I just want you to have a look at that document and to tell us whether that looks to you like the kind of information that would usually be set out in a pre-study.

WOUTER J BASSON: Where precisely is it, Chairperson?

MR KAHANOVITZ: It starts at the top of page 184 and runs through to the penultimate paragraph at page 185.  You'll see where it says "end of plan", at the bottom of page 185.  He has not put it in inverted commas, but it might as well have been.

WOUTER J BASSON: Very well.

MR LAX: Mr Kahanovitz, may I just interpose on something?  	You've just mentioned something that I was concerned about and you said that, this is how you were quoted anyway, you said some agents had been influenced to such an extent they could not be applied any longer, what do you mean by that?

WOUTER J BASSON: There were rumours that Mr Botes in his actions against Mr Verster and against the CCB, would not make his structure available to the person or the organisation who would then possibly continue with activities, and if I recall correctly he used some of the persons to strengthen his case against the Defence Force.

MR LAX: This was that civil case that he brought?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think that is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Basson, wasn't that civil case brought a long time after these events?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I do not know about the time, but I'm under the impression that he assumed control of his indirect persons, he was aware of them, he could control them, no-one else could continue with it.

MR LAX: You see, you've explained that these people were leaderless and that you were called in to take over.

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm referring to indirect members, possible agents in Mozambique and Swaziland.  There were also the conscious members.  I'm referring to those.

MR LAX: You see, to me what just doesn't make sense in what you're saying is, if you're called in to take over from someone else who has left in a hurry and there's a bit of a dark cloud hanging over the issue, you would need to be briefed, find out what - because you've already said you didn't have any knowledge what he was involved in.  How could you do that without being briefed, without actually finding out what projects he was involved in, so that you could take the necessary steps, whether it was to shut them down, whether  it was to continue them, whatever it might be?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically, but projects which were already taking place were not conveyed to me, or I was not notified about them.  If there were projects which had not come to execution yet, they would probably have been handed over to me, but the fact of the matter is that with all his pending or existing projects no continuation was made, everything was ceased.  I don't know whether Mr Verster issued this as a direct order, but not much detail was handed over to me, with the exception of the available persons who were still available and the possible continued application of such persons.

MR LAX: But then there was nothing for you to take over.

WOUTER J BASSON: Primarily administrative, Chairperson, at that stage.

MR LAX: Ja, but what were you going to administer if there were no personnel, there were no projects, there was nothing going on?

WOUTER J BASSON: There were numerous conscious members and I think that their plan or instructions would have been to continue re-examining the development of a structure, a continuation of this and not to use Mr Botes' persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Basson, could you give us some indication of how long Botes acted as Co-ordinator or Manager, whatever it was, of Region 2?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not certain when he commenced, perhaps if somebody could indicate to me when he left.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can't just sitting here now say whether he was there for a year of 18 months or three months or whatever?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, if I were to rely on my recollection, I would say that he was there from the beginning of 1989 to approximately October or November in 1989.  So by nature of the course of time, there wasn't much time for me to become actively involved in Region 2 before the activities were ceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Basson, we've heard evidence about operating on the need-to-know basis, you appear to be giving evidence on the premise of the need-to-know-nothing basis.  Now just before we go off this subject, why were two people brought in to take over your role as Co-ordinator in Region 6?

WOUTER J BASSON: Could you please repeat the question?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your evidence has been that two people, Nick and Theo, were brought in to take over your function as the Co-ordinator of Region 6, I'm asking you why two people were brought in.

WOUTER J BASSON: If I recall correctly, Nick would have been the person who would have performed the typical coordinative role in terms of administration and so forth and Theo would have been more involved in the intelligence function of the region.  In other words, the region would have been extended more.  I was still involved with Region 6, but I also had the added function of the further co-ordination of Region 2.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What were their full administrative names?  What was Nick's administrative surname?  Is it Nienaber?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was Theo's administrative surname?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot recall, perhaps you could mention a name to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was Nick Nienaber's real name?

WOUTER J BASSON: Tillie Smit, if I recall correctly.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And Theo's real name?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think it was De Jager or Vernon.  I don't know what his real surname was ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger mentioned a name Vernie de Lange.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, that is his name.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is it Lange or De Lange?

WOUTER J BASSON: Lange.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay.  Well let's just call them by their real names to prevent confusion.  Tillie Smit was going to take over the classical Co-ordinator's role,  is that correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Vernie Lange was going to perform some sort of information or intelligence related function.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've said in your evidence that one of the things that you did was that you used to co-ordinate with Chris Nel.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.  It was before the appointment.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, so was Vernie Lange's job was going to be to co-ordinate with Chris Nel on intelligence matters?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But what you're also telling us is that the plan at that time was in fact to expand the activities of Region 6.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I think that the support staff would have assisted in the increase of activities.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were bringing in more manpower because somebody somewhere seemed to think that Region 6 was a good thing.

WOUTER J BASSON: It is an inference, but ten to one that is the case.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You'd also draw that inference, from what happened at the time?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's a yes.  Well what was the context, why did - what was said to you as to why Region 6 activities were going to be expanded?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it could also be that as a result of my additional duties regarding the Region 2, that the workload would have been so much that I would not have been able to attend to it, that is why my load was lifted by introducing two more persons directly to Region 2, so that they could assist with the activities that I could not manage.