Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

MR LAMEY: With regard to your involvement, I refer to Exhibit B, Chairperson that will be page 67 thereof, you apply for amnesty for your assistance and supplying of weapons in an illegal manner and the offences with regard to the Weapons and Ammunitions Act, as well as your involvement in the attempt at a coup in Transkei.  Furthermore any other participation in any unlawful act which can emanate from this deed?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You were aware that when you were involved with the supply of arms, that they would be used by certain persons to attempt a coup on the government of Gen Bantu Holomisa?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: May I just proceed and ask you that you knew that with such an attempted coup, Gen Holomisa would be the target and that persons within his government or himself, could possibly be killed?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, on this point I have, I don't know whether it is necessary to lead evidence on the more specific offences which amnesty would be sought for?

CHAIRPERSON: The dealing in arms, that sort of thing?

MR LAMEY: Yes, the particular sections ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think if you wish to do that, it would probably be more appropriate at the time of making the submissions, if you want to give a list.

MR LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Then Mr Nortje, with regard to the political objective, you say in your affidavit that the objective was to topple the government of Gen Holomisa as you understood it, and according to your knowledge, his government was in support of the ANC at that stage and that he as such, was also an enemy of the State, the Apartheid State?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Craig Duli on the other hand, was according to your knowledge a military leader in the Transkei who was favourably inclined towards the government?

MR NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And the objective was to bring the Transkei under his control instead?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: You also state in your affidavit that according to your knowledge, there were also deeds of unrest and violence in the Eastern Cape at that stage which were committed by the ANC with assistance from the Transkei and supporters within Gen Holomisa's government?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: You have also listened to the evidence of the former Commander De Kock in this relation, and you agree with it?

MR NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Your conduct emanates from an order which you received, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: In your capacity as a Sergeant of your Commander, Colonel De Kock?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: That the toppling of the Holomisa government would be a set back for the Transkei and would create problems for the activities in the Eastern Cape?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: De Kock also referred to the fact that should the government be toppled, the Security Police would have easier access to the Transkei in order to facilitate their task of monitoring the activities of the ANC from within the Transkei, that had to do with revolutionary activity?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: With regard to the order and approval, we understand from Colonel De Kock that this was an operation which was born and bred in DCC?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And that you received your orders from Colonel De Kock, and that as far as you know, Nieuwoudt and Van der Westhuizen from DCC were the most prominent persons with whom De Kock had consultation, with regard to this operation?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Then Mr Nortje, Exhibit C the annexure, or the addendum to your application, supports your political objective.  With regard to the evidence of Gen Johan van der Merwe in his submission in 1996 and you request that this be incorporated as far as it is relevant, along with his evidence as well as Mr Vlok's evidence in the Khotso/COSATU House incidents?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You yourself were an applicant during those hearings and you heard their evidence, you concur with it with regard to the survey which they provided regarding the revolutionary climate in South Africa at that stage, as well as the background information about the Security Forces and the Security Police and you, as a member of Vlakplaas were tasked with combating this revolutionary atmosphere or onslaught?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: You also request that the findings of the Amnesty Committee in the decision regarding the hearing of Brigadier Cronje also be incorporated in this application, in so far as it is relevant?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Then initially in your amnesty application, in paragraphs 10(c) and (d) with regard to remuneration, you state that you did not receive any additional remuneration.  When you received the bundle of documents, you see that Snyman has mentioned an amount which was received to cover expenses for example food and drink, do you agree with that?  You also state that it is correct that Mr De Kock also made provision for expenses from a fund?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Was there any mention of additional remuneration or financial benefit, whether it be prior to the order to supply weapons for the coup or thereafter?

MR NORTJE: No, there was no such mention.

MR LAMEY: You have also heard the evidence of Mr De Kock with regard to a plot which was later given?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And that has nothing to do with this incident or any of the other incidents in which you have been involved?

MR NORTJE: No.

MR LAMEY: So to summarise the motivation for your involvement in these operations, emanates from an order which was given as well as the background which will sketch the political climate along with the objective of toppling the government of Holomisa?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have some questions.  Mr Nortje, it has appeared from your evidence in chief that the affidavit which you originally submitted in support of your amnesty application, was an affidavit which was compiled in Denmark?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: At that time, you were one of the secret witnesses which appeared before the Goldstone Commission of Enquiry?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And as a result of the fact that you and people like Mr Klopper and Mr Van Heerden gave evidence before the Commission, you have developed a fear for your own safety and the safety of your family?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And the Goldstone Commission then made immediate arrangements in order to take you out of the country and you were taken to Denmark?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: In Denmark you were represented by various members of an Investigative Team which included Dr D'Oliviera, the then Attorney General for Transvaal as well as people like Adv Pretorius and Adv Ackerman and so forth?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: You will recall that you gave evidence as a State witness against Mr De Kock, and that I placed you under cross-examination and that after cross-examination, it appeared that these affidavits which you made in Denmark, were made under great pressure and in great haste?

MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: It was continually told to you to finish these affidavits, because Dr D'Oliviera was to get a flight back to South Africa before a certain time?