Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Thank you.  This person came around in the morning and when he came, I did not see him.  I was alone inside my house and I had this strange feeling of fear.  I started wondering what the cause could be.  I started wondering because I was alone and there was nobody else inside the house and I woke up, got dressed and I went to the door.

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting.  You say this person came in the morning but you did not see him?  That was what the interpreter said.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I did not see him when he arrived.

MR MALAN: So how did you know that he arrived?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: As I am explaining that I think it must be some kind of premonition on my part, or intuition, because I woke up and got dressed and I started wondering why the fear.  I went to the door.  I knew that we suffered constant attacks and I did not want to simply open the door and get out.  There was this small house that was opposite the door and I wanted to establish first if there were people, or a person outside and there was this guava tree at the end and this person was standing under the tree, which tree was facing the door to my house and he was wearing some kind of green clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: (no interpretation).

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He was wearing clothes that were blue in colour.  I looked at this person very carefully and I was looking at his hands.  Indeed, he had a firearm, such that as he was having this firearm, I got a shock so that I couldn't make out whether it was a self-made firearm or not.  I withdrew back into the house and fled out through the back window.  I started walking stealthily to wake up my neighbours.
	I went to Moses Dlamini first and he was still lying down at the time.  The radio was on.  I knocked at the door.  He wanted to know who was knocking and I identified myself, saying that I had a problem.  He opened the door and I got in and explained to him that there was this person on my homestead and this person had come to attack me because when I look at this person he has a firearm, though I cannot make out whether the firearm was self-made or not.  And he said "Okay" and I stood on the premises.

ADV DE JAGER: Was this firearm a big firearm or a small firearm?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was a small firearm.  He then contacted Basil

CHAIRPERSON: Moses?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, and Sepo Nduli and Michael Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please slow down, we are taking down the notes as you are speaking?  Moses contacted who first?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Basil Ngwenye.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Sepo Nduli, Mfanafuti and Michael Khumalo and I would not want to include the two children, not the kind of people that can get involved in a war.  These are the kind of people you send around at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say they should arm?  They got themselves armed?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.  We then went to my place and when we got there, or should I say, along the way I indicated to Moses that seeing that you have a firearm, you should be next to me, I don't carry a firearm and I don't use it at all, because I do not believe in it, I grew up using these traditional weapons, so that he should be the one who points the firearm at him.  We got to my place and indeed they saw this person and he pointed the firearm at him saying "Drop your gun" and when this person looked around, he was surrounded by my group, there were 5 of us.
	He dropped the firearm and I hastily went for the firearm.  I picked the firearm up, inspected it and transpired it was a home-made firearm.  It was a home-made firearm.  On inspecting it, it had two barrels and you would used one SP12 for the upper barrel and another one for the lower barrel, so that it was a double barrel and when you fire the 2 SP12's would fire simultaneously.  I threw the firearm to Mfanafuti and indicated that he should keep it whilst the interrogation is continuing.  I was still going inside the house at the time and I went around the house, got into the house through the window, opened the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please slow down, because this evidence is very important.  We would appeal to you not to hurry up.  Slow down a little bit because we're taking notes as well.  You said Mfanafuti should take the firearm and you said they can continue asking him questions, whilst you went into your house.  Who did you give this instruction to, the instruction that they should continue asking him questions?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I gave them all this instruction, there were 4 of them.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to continue, because I don't want to interrupt you in the manner in which you are rendering testimony.  The people who were there are the ones whose names you have given us, it was yourself, Moses, Basil, Sepo Nduli and Mfanafuti as well as Michael Khumalo, these are the people who were present when you captured this person and when you took the firearm and gave it to Mfanafuti?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.  This what I would like to state.  These two children ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, we are not yet speaking about the children, we are still talking about the adults who were present here.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that's okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you can continue.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Okay.  I came out with my assegai and I said to the people, or should I say I inquired as to whether he was telling them the truth because this was my home and they said:  "Yes, he is speaking" and I said:  "If that is the case, that's okay".  But then we could not continue questioning him at the place where we were or at the house where we were because we not quite sure whether he was alone or whether he had a company of people that had hidden in the trees.
	I decided that we should take him elsewhere, where we could question him without being interrupted because I was not quite certain how many eyes were on us on my premises and we went to Moses' place.  Upon arrival, we continued with our questioning such that I became the one who was now directly questioning him.

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived at Moses' place, were you still the same group that questioned him under the guava tree?  Is it still the same group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue now.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I asked him questions.  I said:  "Look, this is my home.  What is it that you're looking for seeing that you are carrying a gun?"  He gave us the truth to the effect that he was from Mashinela in Shayamoya and he was instructed by him to go to my place.  And I said:  "Seeing that you are from Mashinela, are you suggesting that it was Mashinela himself who sent you to me, or are you saying you're from his area?"  and he said:  "No, it was Mashinela personally who sent me here, he sent me to Sinangwenye but I do not know this Sinangwenye."  He said he doesn't know Sinangwenye and I said:  "If that is so, how would you identify a person that you didn't know?"  and he said that he was told that the first house on entering the area belonged to Sinangwenye and he says he now identified the first house and he was now waiting for Sinangwenye to open the door and on doing so  "I would shoot him, because I knew that there's no way he wouldn't get up to go and pass water seeing that it was in the morning."

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day are you talking about?  Was it around 7 as indicated in your affidavit?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: When this person arrived it could have been around past 6.

CHAIRPERSON: According to your estimation would you say which month it was?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: You would have to bear with me, I cannot testify with the months.

CHAIRPERSON: The court says this occurred around November and December, do you agree?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, indeed, I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: It was in summer?