Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR DUKADA: I'll be coming back to this topic later Mr Dandala but can I ask you a question now.  Did the former State President know about the killing of Ndondo before it took place?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know.

MR DUKADA: You don't know?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: But surely that is not a remark which can be made by a head of state irresponsibly, do you agree with me?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That it could be made by the head of the state?

MR DUKADA: I say to you that a statement, a sinister statement of this nature would not be made by a head of state irresponsibly.  He had information?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, as far as I can hear it from you.   Seemingly he had information about it.  Myself I don't know whether he had any information about it.

MR DUKADA: And that information would come from the underground unit in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know whether he had any information about, I mean, when making that statement.

MR DUKADA: Do you think Mr Dandala a head of state would just go publicly and make an announcement of this nature when he was not possessed with facts?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know where he got it.

MR DUKADA: Did you subsequently find out?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I didn't.

MR DUKADA: Did you make any endeavours to investigate the statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I didn't investigate it.

MR DUKADA: Did you have any interest to the statement as a member of the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I had interest but I didn't investigate it.

MR DUKADA: Now on the 23rd of September 1984 you were called by Colonel Booi at Bodostow Building and briefed about your trip to Barkly East, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Can you just tell the Committee what was discussed in the office of Colonel Booi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Discussed by Colonel Booi together with me?

MR DUKADA: Yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He just told me that I must go to Barkly East to assist the members of the South African Police when they are coming in Transkei.  They cannot go to the offices to ask for a policeman.

MR DUKADA: To assist in what?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: When they are coming to operate in Transkei.

MR DUKADA: Yes, exactly.  This is what I want to find out.  To do what in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: To arrest political, I mean ANC members.

MR DUKADA: Yes but please, Mr Dandala, just give us a full picture of what took place in the office of Colonel Booi before departing to Barkly East?  What was the nature of assignment given to you?  What was discussed there together with Colonel Booi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Colonel Booi told me that I am going to work, I'm going to assist South African Police  members who are working with trained terrorists only.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  And then you said in one of your statements that after you had been told by Colonel Booi that you were supposed to go to Barkly East and he suggested to you that your mission there might be longer.  You went and came back with your belongings.  Is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.  He said I must go and collect my clothing.

MR DUKADA: And when you came back you found Braam Moss, Eric Shabalala and there were a lot of other people?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  Surely?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Surely something was discussed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: By myself and Colonel Booi?

MR DUKADA: By everybody who was in the office of Colonel Booi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, Colonel Booi was just alone in the office.

MR DUKADA: No, what I'm saying is that when you were about to leave when you came back with your clothes, then you met Braam Moss, Shabalala and a lot of other people.  What actually took place?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: These people they were in kombis, in the kombis.

MR DUKADA: And proceeding to Barkly East?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Did you ask the details of the mission?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I didn't ask the details of the mission.

MR DUKADA: You knew nothing about the precise details of the mission?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: About what?

MR DUKADA: The precise details of the mission?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: You see but you know Mr Dandala, Shabalala, in his statement, your companion, he says that he and various other officials of the security branch in the Republic on that day, they were instructed to operate in Transkei.  It was a joint operation between the members of ...[inaudible] branch in Transkei and those in South Africa.  You know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  I didn't see it.  I don't know it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you didn't see it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I mean I didn't see his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: But what's been put to you is that his statement suggests that there was a joint operation between the Transkei security branch and the South African security branch.  Do you agree with that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can agree, yes.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And this joint operation consisted of Captain Eugene de Kock.  There were also some other members of the security branch or should I say from the Department of Police in the Republic of South Africa who joined you at Barkly East?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know Eugene de Kock.

MR DUKADA: No no I'm sorry, let me just put, I might be putting an inaccurate statement, sorry.  According to Shabalala, he was a member of Vlakplaas Security Branch and on the day in question he received instructions to go down to Barkly East, did you know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I didn't know about that.

MR DUKADA: Then on your arrival at Barkly East, what was discussed there concerning operations in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: On our arrival there I was taken to the room where Constable Booyse was sleeping.

MR DUKADA: Yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: There were no discussions together with these people.  I was just with Constable Booyse in the room for the whole night.  We slept together.

MR DUKADA: Did you plan the operation?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, we didn't plan.  We had no plans.  We didn't plan any operations.  We were just called in the morning by Braam Moss.

MR DUKADA: You had two mini buses?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Both of them full of passengers?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Did you find this as an ordinary routine operation?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: ... [inaudible] to see them so I don't know whether it was their routine or what.

MR DUKADA: But surely Mr Dandala this should have raised eyebrows.  For the first time you as a security policeman, you have one of the kombis is having tinted windows?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Were you not curious to find out exactly what was happening?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes but I didn't ask anything about that.

MR DUKADA: You had no interest to find out from any of your colleagues at, whilst you were at Barkly East?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: What was really happening?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I didn't try to find out from anybody.

MR DUKADA: And the mini bus with tinted windows had an XC.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: XS.

MR DUKADA: Sorry, XS registration and that is the registration number of Xala where Ndondo was residing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Then what, again that didn't even raise any eyebrows to you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, because there were sometimes even Transkei they were putting false registration numbers so as not to be identified by the people that they are police.

CHAIRPERSON: When it is convenient Mr Dukada would you indicate so that we can take the ... [inaudible] adjournment.

MR DUKADA: No, thank you Mr Chairman, I would appreciate an adjournment Mr Chairman.