Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, we have four more matters on the roll.   The next amnesty applicant is Mr Hayes.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hayes, your amnesty application is in embodied in volume 1, from page 58 to 65.  That would be the official application form.  Then the incidents for which you apply for amnesty are in Annexure A, from page 65 to 69 and the political motivation, Annexure B, from page 70 to 77, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you confirm the contents of the application?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hayes, during 1988, June, where were you stationed?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I was stationed at Piet Retief Security Branch.

MS VAN DER WALT: And your Commander was Mr Freek Pienaar.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I'm not sure during the incident whether I was a Sergeant or a Warrant Officer.  I was promoted in that time period, or notified thereof.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have heard the evidence of Mr de Kock, Mr Pienaar and Mr Deetlefs and the other persons, do you confirm their evidence where it has relevance to you?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: The first incident, the one which took place in June 1988, where the Toyota Corolla was involved, were you involved with the arrangements of this incident?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I was just informed by Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock as to what we would do.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you just received instructions?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you received the instruction, the instruction was to go and kill these people?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know that the people would be lured into an ambush?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, I knew.

MS VAN DER WALT: During this incident, did you also fire shots?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I did not shoot, I carried the light.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you know that four persons were killed, although your application does not mention it?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the 2nd incident of the 12th of June, were you involved with the arrangements of that incident?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: It was once again under the same circumstances, Mr de Kock just gave me instructions what to do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Although you cannot recall whether you were a Sergeant or a Warrant Officer, what was your position at the Security Branch, were you a senior member or a junior member?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: At that stage I was the most junior member at the branch and if I recall correctly, I started about two months after Mr Barnard and at that stage I had just more than four years service in the Police Force.

MS VAN DER WALT: With the second incident, what were your duties?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I was part of the group that would lay the ambush and I would fire shots at the vehicle with the other people, to kill the people.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you fire shots?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: And with the first incident, were you aware that a firearm and handgrenades were planted on the persons?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: If I recall correctly, Mr Pienaar informed me later that they had planted weapons and that we would present it as such.

MS VAN DER WALT: And with the second incident, do you know whether the persons were in possession of firearms which were in the minibus?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: All four the persons were armed with AK47 rifles, and if I recall correctly there were some extra magazines as well.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hayes, you also made statements with regard to the post-mortem inquest, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I may refer you to volume 5, Chairperson, from page 57 to page 59.
	Is that the statement that you made?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: This was to Brigadier van Wyk?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this statement has relevance to the second incident where the minibus was involved.  In paragraph 2 on page 57, you mention that you received certain instructions from Maj Deetlefs.  Is that the correct version?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I received my instructions from Col de Kock.

MS VAN DER WALT: So in this statement you omitted Col de Kock's name, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: As it would also seem on page 58, paragraph 10, where you also say that Maj Deetlefs gave the cease fire instruction.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: That has to be Mr de Kock, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then volume 3A, Chairperson, from page 7 to 9.
	Is that also your statement?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, it is.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hayes, I see on page 9 that the statement was only taken on the 10th of September 1990.  Who took the statement from you?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Brig Krappies Engelbrecht took the statement.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was after there were problems with the first inquest.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: In this statement, if you look at page 7, paragraph 4, you mention a police vehicle that stood next to the road, that is wrong is it not?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: No, there was no vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: And also in paragraph 5 you mention a blue police flashlight.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, because there was no vehicle, then there would be no light.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in paragraph 6, where you say that Mr Pienaar had a flashlight in his hand to indicate to the people to stop.  That is also wrong.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, that is incorrect.

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 8, paragraph 8, you have a version that on this particular that you fell to the ground and that you did not fire shots, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I did not fall down there.  As has been said previously by Mr de Kock I think, I carried the searchlight which was connected to the battery, during the incident.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why then did you state this untruth here that you had fallen and you not mention that you had manned this searchlight?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: As far as I recall, Brig Engelbrecht came to me and told me Col de Kock had given evidence in the post-mortem inquest that there was no light and I was placed at the scene by everybody and along with Brig Krappies, we thought up this story that I had fallen, to concur with the evidence of Col de Kock and the rest of the people.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then in paragraph 11 on page 8, you mention that you had later heard that a Makarov pistol, shells and handgrenades were found with the deceased.  That is also not correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, Chairperson, that is also not true.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry, Ms van der Walt, I just missed one little bit here.  You said who told you that Mr de Kock had given slightly difference evidence previously?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Brig Engelbrecht, if I recall.

ADV GCABASHE: Brig Engelbrecht said that to you.  And he then said that your evidence should concur with what Mr de Kock had already stated?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Along with the other evidence.

ADV GCABASHE: So he knew it was a falsehood, it wasn't true?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I assume so, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hayes, you apply for amnesty in respect of the murder of the persons in both instances, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: As well as any other delict which might flow from there?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.