Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I'm sorry that the SAP issue irritates you.

MR PRIOR: I'm not saying it irritates me, it doesn't concern my question.  My question is direct and very simple, did you write this report?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  Ja, as I can see, it is my writing.

MR PRIOR: Good.  And that was a report back to your director of operations, Leklapa Mpashlele, is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, but I don't think this is the final product.

MR PRIOR: There's no trick to the question Mr Xundu, I'm simply asking you very, just a follow-up question,  I'm not trying to trap you.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, I'm giving you something, I don't think this is the final product.

MR PRIOR: Now, I just want to ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The report for instance, I prepared is on behalf of comrade Skumiso and this one is not signed and I mean common sense tells me that he would have to sign.

MR PRIOR: Who is Liso Bello?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: It's comrade Skumiso.

MR PRIOR: And that said it was issued by Liso Bello, regional commander Lembede regiment Lesta.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Who's Lesta?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Comrade Sku.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, comrade?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Skumiso Nxunuba.

MR PRIOR: He's deceased, is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, the late.

MR PRIOR: And sorry, Liso Bello is the same person?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I just want to direct your attention to the unit composition, and before I get to that, the Lembede regiment, was that - how did that tie up with the Ekude battalion or the Ekude regiment?  Was it one and the same thing or?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, it was one and the same thing, a detachment and the regiment.  The regiment is something high up - it's in the South African ...[indistinct] but I don't ...[indistinct]

MR PRIOR: You've mentioned Jerry, is that right?  Jerry was the commander and Lester is Nxunuba, who was Tatja?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: That was myself.

MR PRIOR: Vido?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: That was Vido.  I said his ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: You don't know his true name?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

MR PRIOR: But you say he is in attendance here today?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Hello?

MR PRIOR: You say he is in attendance today at the hearing?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

MR PRIOR: And who is Pumi?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: It's comrade Tobela.

MR PRIOR: Comrade Tobela?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, Mlambisa.

MR PRIOR: Oh, Mlambisa.   And Mr Ntintili and Mr Morrison, aren't they part of the unit?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Because they are not.

MR PRIOR: I want to turn to page 104 of the bundle, and to identify it, this was a part of a - page 104 Mr Chairman, it's a TRC research document which was extracted from CIS files Eastern Cape and I want to refer to page 104 of the bundle, to the 14th of December 1992.  I'm going to put this to you at the level of asking your  comment on this note.
	There's a question that's asked, whether the King William's Town Golf Club and the Queenstown Spur attacks, whether there were links to MK, and there's a reference to MK:
"Adam Eric Gavusa said APLA claimed responsibility. MK responsible for Bisho car bomb attack but we don't have any reason to bomb golf clubs and restaurants.  MK Adam and MK Bushi (Petrus Vantju) involved with attacks of 18.12.92"
and then:
"APLA withdrew responsibility for Bisho car bomb attack."
that's not really relevant here.  The question directly, was there any MK, Umkhonto weSizwe assistance or support to APLA in the King William's Town Golf Club operation, and if so, are you able to supply any details of that?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No, not at all.  Mr Chairman, if - I always have a problem about the SAP as it was you see.  Now if we can base our argument based on their findings and speculations then we will miss the track because those people were, they were not informed.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  Can I just ask you finally on this aspect, was there at no stage during 1992, prior to the King William's Town Golf Club operation, any co-operation, assistance, support given to APLA by MK?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

MR PRIOR: I just want to ask you finally, just to come back to the question of legitimate reprisal, I think Ms Gcabashe actually clarified the question somewhat.  Do I understand the King William's Town Golf Club operation to be a purely - Let me rephrase that, a directive or command from Leklapa Mpashlele?  In other words, he identified the target and the order was to attack that target in the best possible way you could.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, but one correction - one perception that I should mention, is that perhaps you expect comrade Leklapa to have gone through physically himself but the fact of the matter, I mean as director of operations he must be informed and that such intelligence sources ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: I understand that.  I don't mean by the question that he should have been there.  Do I understand from that that you were acting in King William's Town Golf Club on orders, you were carrying out the orders of your operational, of your director or operations, Leklapa Mpashlele?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, I have already said that.

MR PRIOR: On orders?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: This wasn't a reprisal against any attacks that police or the defence force had made against black civilians or citizens, is that correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No, it was not an act particularly aimed at a specific ...

MR PRIOR: And do I understand also, and maybe you can correct me if I'm mistaken, would it have made any difference to your operation if, when arriving at the golf club, that you at that stage discovered that it was senior citizens in the sense that Mr Lax has explained to you, that were at a wine tasting function and they were not part of the military machine?  Would it have made any difference to you whether you would have gone or would you have desisted from your attack if that information had been brought home to you at that time?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: If there was such poor intelligence I think firstly the director of operations would certainly have misgivings about giving authority.

MR PRIOR: But yourself ...[intervention] sorry, I don't want to interrupt you.  The question essentially is ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I think it was impossible for me to postpone an operation during each hour.

MR PRIOR: I'm just asking now, thinking back, would it have made any difference if the intelligence that you had received had been corrected in the following way:  there's now a mistake, these are now people who are unrelated to the military, these are senior citizens having a wine tasting function, a Christmas party?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Then you are trying to say I would have had the chance to look at them one by one, and I would have that chance.  I understand you are talking about the H hourly.

MR PRIOR: Would it have made any difference to your operation, in other words, would you have disobeyed the order?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior.  He's understand you - he's talking about H hour, is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR LAX: That's the point at which the operation has already commenced.

MR PRIOR: No, I'm talking about ...[intervention]

MR LAX: So let's be clear because you're talking at cross purposes here.