Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR WILLS: As I see from page 4 of Exhibit A, this group of seven included yourself, applicant Jabulani Ncokwane and applicant Jabulani Cele, also Senzo Shange, Sonny Ngcobo, a person by the name of Umdeduzi and Jomo Mseleku, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you decided that you're going to attack this bus, can you continue and tell the Committee what you did?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: After we agreed that we were going to attack the bus, we also agreed that we were going to remove females and children in the bus because we didn't want to fight females because we've never seen a single female shooting at us.
	We left the forest.  We arrived at the sugar-cane field.  That is where we hid.  We heard a car coming.  Umdeduzi left because he thought it was police.  Then the six of us remained there.  Whilst we were there we also heard the bus coming and Sonny decided that he was the one who was going to stop the bus.  We all agreed.
	He left the sugar-cane.  He stopped the bus.  He ordered the bus driver to alight.  We then came to the bus.  We stopped down there.  Jabulani Cele and Senzo Shange went and stopped at a certain hill so that they could see other people from a distance.  	When we arrived there I told women to alight the bus and the children and I ordered the men to stay behind, inside the bus.  No-one came out, then we shot up and females or women and children cried and they said okay, we should stop so that they can alight the bus.  Two men tried to alight as well, we shot at them and then they died.
LADIES IN AUDIENCE DISTRESSED

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	As I understood your evidence, you said that applicant Jabulani Cele, that's the third applicant here today, together with Senzo Shange, went and stood on some hill and in your statement you - and I'm referring to page 5 of Exhibit A, you say that they actually stood guard, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And then yourself and applicant two, that's Izak - sorry, that's the first applicant, Jabulani Ncokwane and Sonny Boy were involved in the actual attack, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Together with Joe Cele.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now I want you to tell the Committee, first of all exactly what you did, and I'm going to lead you.  You said that you ordered the women and children to come out of the bus.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now where were you at this time, were you inside the bus or outside the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Outside the bus.

MR WILLS: And you say they didn't respond and so you fired shots?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And where did you fire those shots?  You said you fired them up, but where exactly did you fire the shots?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: On top of the bus.

MR WILLS: Okay, continue from there, or what happened thereafter?

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just ask a question?
	The bullets you fired on top of the bus, did they hit the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: So did they hit the top of the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Wills.

CHAIRPERSON: The roof - according to your statement you shot at the roof of the bus.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: ...(no English interpretation).  Yes, the roof of the bus, on top of the windows.  I was trying to scare the women to leave the bus so that the men are remaining inside.

MR WILLS: Then I understand the women came out together with two men.  Now the two men who came out together with the women, you said
"We shot at them"
Did that include yourself?  Did you shoot at those two men?

CHAIRPERSON: In his statement he says
"Both I and Ncokwane fired"

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Not
"We fired"

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, I personally together with Jabulani Ncokwane and Joe Cele.

MR WILLS: Now did you ask, did you check up if there was anybody else in the bus, other than women, that you wanted to give a chance to go away?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I didn't board the bus, but what I said was; people who were not residents of Nkwale must come out and one man said he was from Adams, therefore we told him to leave, then we were only left with people from Nkwale and Mashiwane.

MR WILLS: Now after that, - sorry, did you let this person leave?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, we did because he wasn't a resident of Nkwale of Mashiwane.

MR WILLS: And then after - sorry, I just want to concentrate on the driver of the bus.  You indicated in your evidence, in your viva voce evidence here, that you allowed the driver to alight from the bus.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, Sonny told him to run away, because the driver wasn't a resident of the area, therefore he wasn't one of the people who were attacking us.

MR WILLS: And so when a witness in court says that the driver escaped you would dispute that, is that correct, you actually allowed him to go away?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: I say there is a witness who testified in court to the effect that the driver escaped and obviously your evidence disputes that.  Do you say that he didn't have to escape, he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was told to run away.

MR WILLS: ... he was told to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that to escape?

MR LAX: Aren't we dealing with subjective perceptions here, Mr Wills?  I mean the fact of the matter is that ...(intervention)

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: We actually let the driver to escape, we allowed him.

MR LAX: Correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson, Committee Member.
	After you had shot at the two men, what happened thereafter?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: After we shot these two men we told them that if anyone wasn't a resident of the area he must come out and one man said he was from Adams, then we told the man to run away as well, we said he must escape because we were looking for our enemies.  After the man escaped we told the men to alight the bus.  They didn't.  That is when we started firing gunshots at the bus.  I was outside near the bus. Jabulani Ncokwane was right in front of the bus.
	Sonny was near the sugar-cane field, because he was guarding for the people who were trying to escape through windows.  We shot at the bus for quite a while.  Jabulani went in front of the bus or at the door.  Jabulani shouted, saying that: "People are coming or attackers are coming" and we also heard gunshots.  That's when we ran away.  We got in the sugar-cane.  We ran to Umgubaba. We gave Master the guns.  We told Master that we've already attacked the bus.

MR WILLS: Okay, now I just want to get some clarity on what you've said.  As I understand your evidence, at all stages you remained outside the bus, but you did shoot at the bus, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also correct that once you had allowed the women and children to leave and also the people from other areas, when you fired at the bus it was your intention to kill the occupants, the remaining occupants inside that bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And as regards applicant one, that's Jabulani Ncokwane, did he enter the bus and shoot from inside of the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, he did.

MR WILLS: And you were happy with what he did, you associated yourself with what he did?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, we agreed, all of us.

MR WILLS: Now what about the third applicant, Jabulani Cele, he was you say, standing guard.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if he fired any shots at the bus or at any of the people?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: No, he didn't.  His main function was to safeguard.  He was supposed to tell us whenever the attackers were approaching towards us.

MR WILLS: And does the same apply to Senzo Shange, who was also a guard?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.