Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  I'm told Mr Wessels, that you're going to be proceeding with the cross-examination of Mr Barnard.

FERDINAND BARNARD: (s.u.o.)

FERDINAND BARNARD: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, just before I continue there is something that I'd like to rectify if it is possible, that I testified about it before.  I received information over the weekend that indicated that that which I said was not quite the truth, or that it did not happen exactly like I said it happened.  Can I just explain this to you in short.
	It is with regard to the applications that the CCB brought to me under my detention under Section 29, and I said that the funds for them were given in cash to Calla Botha, and I testified about it and I was under the impression that that's how it worked, but after certain discussions with my father telephonically, I found out that it did not work like that.  
	The money was given to Scholtz and Botha, an attorney's firm from Florida and they contacted my father and told him that the costs have been covered.  Additional to this, R4 000 was given to Brenda Mills, my girlfriend whom I shared a house with and they provided her with that amount of money every month.  There were certain enquiries made about what her costs were and what she needed.  It was approximately R4 000 that they gave to her every month.  This was given by a firm Weavind and Weavind, situated in Pretoria.  They handed over the cash to my father who then wrote out cheques to Brenda Mills, not to make it traceable and this was a Werner Burchill from the attorney's firm Weavind and Weavind.  That's all that I'd like to say concerning this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Barnard.  Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Barnard, after the shooting incident of Dr Webster, did you contact Lafras Luitingh and make an appointment with him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: Where was this appointment made?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It occurred at the Hyperama in Florida.

MR WESSELS: Where in the Hyperama?

FERDINAND BARNARD: In the parking lot.

MR WESSELS: I see.  And you took Mr Botha with you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes.

MR WESSELS: What did you tell him?  What did you say to him, where must he hide or what must he do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Botha remained in my vehicle, I left my vehicle and went to Mr Luitingh's vehicle.

MR WESSELS: Did Mr Luitingh see where you came from?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not know, I cannot recall.  He did not say anything about it.

MR WESSELS: Would he have been able to see Mr Botha?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was a very busy parking lot, I cannot specifically recall what happened on that specific day and what the circumstances were, but I do not think that he would have been satisfied with it, because I assume he would not have been satisfied with it and he never mentioned anything to me about it.

MR WESSELS: Why did you take Mr Botha with you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Because he was involved with me and I discussed the matter with him that I'm going to go and see Mr Luitingh and I wanted him to monitor the meeting between the two of us, because in the past I've heard a story where the CCB will send you to do a job and then afterwards they'd kill you.  I did not think it would happen there, but I did take him with, I do not deny that.

MR WESSELS: So the purpose why you took him with was so that he can monitor or observe your contact with Mr Luitingh?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, and also for my own safety.

MR WESSELS: Why for your own safety?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I just killed Dr Webster from a moving vehicle and the same thing can happen to me.

MR WESSELS: But did you think that they will shoot you in the parking lot?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did not consider it very strongly, but it was a possibility.

MR WESSELS: And how would Mr Botha then have assisted you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Botha is a trained man or a person, he can see what's going on and if there's a problem he could have acted, he could have assisted me.

MR WESSELS: I see.  And you say that you and Mr Botha drove in your vehicle and parked in the parking lot.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Did you have an arrangement with Mr Luitingh about where exactly you'd meet him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, Sir, we had a fixed point where we would always meet.  We divided the parking lot into sectors, we would say: "I'll meet you at number one or I'll meet you at number 2" and he said: "Meet me at number one ...  If you're on the one side you cannot see the other side of the Hyperama, so we met at point number one, I parked my vehicle and I walked to him there where he waited for me.

MR WESSELS: How far were you from him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It's very difficult to recall, maybe 15 to 20 metres.

MR WESSELS: Were there other people in other vehicles between your two vehicles?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, you made two Section 29 statements.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think it was three.  One of them dealt with, that I made a High Court application and I stopped it halfway and withdrew it and certain pressure was placed on me to do it and I explained it at a later stage, but I also made a short statement that said that I did not want to continue with the application and I wanted to withdraw it.

MR WESSELS: In bundle B, Mr Chairperson, there are two statements which I'd like to refer to.  The one was made on the 22nd of November and the other one on the 6th of December.  This appears on page 141 and 99, the two last pages of the statements.  The first statement begins on page 100 and the other one on page 82.
	Now in your second statement you made mention of the fact that all the allegations in the first statement are not correct, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wessels to interrupt you, there's another statement at page 82 of the bundle.

MR WESSELS: That's the one to which I referred.

MR LAX: Sorry, I thought it was 182 that you referred to.  I beg your pardon.

MR WESSELS: Why did you in the first statement not give the correct version?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, it's very obvious, I'm arrested by the police, I'm creating a story, I'm trying to get the police to think that I gave them possible correct information and that I have to get myself out of this situation.

MR WESSELS: And in your second statement you said now that the allegations that you made in the first statement are not correct and you are now making this statement and these are the correct facts.

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was once again not the truth.

MR WESSELS: Why did you not then make use of that opportunity to tell the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Because I was still detained and I wanted to get out of there an as the police got information I realised the people are still putting pressure on me and I realised that they were getting more and more information and I wanted to give them things that seemed to be the truth and I wanted to get out of the situation, I wanted to con them.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, in your evidence-in-chief you mentioned various people by name and you insulted some of the politicians.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That's correct, yes.

MR WESSELS: Was this part of the reconciliation process that you went through or was there another reason why you spoke about these people in this way?