bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, if you can just bear with me a moment there?  Are you currently still in the South African National Defence Force, if you can just clarify that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No Sir, I took retirement in 1998.

MR DU PLESSIS: 1998?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: You can proceed.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: During September 1992 I held the rank of a Lieutenant Colonel in the former Ciskei Defence Force.  The political and security situation in that former Ciskei State was very tense and potential of violence between the ANC and the then government of Ciskei was rife.  I, as is indicated above, I'm a professional soldier which career I embarked since I was 21 years old.  I regarded it as my duty to perform the orders and duties of soldiers assigned to me.  	It is public knowledge that during 1992 soldiers serving in the security forces of the Republic of Ciskei was regarded as traitors and puppets by their fellow black people including members of one's own family and friends.  In whatever neighbourhood one resided attacks upon soldiers and their families and social and political pressures directed against soldiers were nearly unendurable.  At that same time I was, as I have already testified to on the 11th September 1996 before the Honourable Truth and Reconciliation Commission, suspected of being an informer and traitor to the cause of the ANC.  This was in fact not true.
	A march was planned by the ANC, SACP and COSATU alliance which was, so we were informed, to take over the Ciskei State under grave and very tense circumstances, I was commissioned to act as a field commander during the occurrency of this march.  Initially I was informed that the Ciskei government has an uncompromising and stubborn approach and that we were not allowed the march to cross beyond the borders between South Africa and Ciskei.  For the background, I think that's all, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Sir.  Mr Mkosana, I want to take you to the actual day of the 7th September 1992.  If you can just indicate to the Honourable Committee concerning the facts thereto?
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said already the reason why that rifle grenade did not explode, it was discovered that a fault with it, that's why it did not explode.

ADV PRIOR: Can we turn to Da Gama.

MS GCABASHE: Just before we go to Da Gama, just a couple of points that I'd like to clear up please Mr Ncamazana.
	At the shebeen, was R3 000 taken in addition to the R20, do you know?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I have no information about that.

MS GCABASHE: Because Nomge Faith Freddy says that apart from the R20, R3 000 was taken from them at the shebeen by one of the deceased, I think it should be Kid, either Kid or TNT.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I have no knowledge about that.

MS GCABASHE: Where did you get the money from to fill up the car at Djongilanga garage?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Firstly as I've said, we were given money in order to finance our food as has been tabulated on my statement.  If we needed food, let's to make phone calls we could use that money.

MS GCABASHE: Given by whom?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: By commander.

MS GCABASHE: Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Just to round that off, is that the R100 that he gave you on or about the 10th of March or thereafter, before you came to Bahai as referred to in paragraph 6 of your, 6.5 of your affidavit at page 51 of the bundle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That amount is separate, I'm not talking about that one.

ADV PRIOR: Did he give you more money than the R100 when you came to East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The R100 was given to us in our initial missions, the first time we came.

ADV PRIOR: Before the mission - before the Da Gama attack and the Highgate attack, how much operational money had you received?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well in the second attack because not all of us came this side as two groups of us came this way.

ADV PRIOR: Tell me, was any money taken from the shebeen owner on that evening before you drove away?  Did you take money by force from her?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know of that.

ADV PRIOR: Or were you outside while Kid was inside?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Did Kid maybe say to you or to the group that he was going to go and acquire or obtain money from inside?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, he did not tell me.

ADV PRIOR: But when he came out, is it correct that he had money with him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I have no knowledge of that.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Can I move on to the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How long will you be Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: I need just to canvass Da Gama, I haven't touched on Da Gama yet.

CHAIRPERSON: If we continue at the rate we have so far today I think we will take the adjournment.  What time tomorrow?  We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is a request from the technicians that when the public leave the hall, could they please remove the headsets and place them on the chairs.  In the past, some of the headsets had been damaged in the rush to get out.  If they could comply please, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: If we could just tell you that those headsets don't work outside this room, so really please leave them behind, they are no use to you anywhere else.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL 14-04-1998: .
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

PASIWE MARIA MANENZA: Yes, I do know, they were identity documents.  Those were the documents I saw falling.

MS GCABASHE: Did you observe whether they read these documents at all?

PASIWE MARIA MANENZA: No, they did not do that.

MS GCABASHE: And then, are you saying these were ID documents as in the South African ID documents or a different form of ID document, do you know?

PASIWE MARIA MANENZA: I wouldn't know because I just saw a green cover.  I don't know what was written inside the document.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, and we are grateful to you for having taken trouble to come here today to help us in our inquiries.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May the witness be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: But let us rather in case we have a possibility of filling in other time if we can get him earlier.  We're adjourning the matter until next matter so we can ascertain what the position is with a view to then procuring a fixed date.  It does not mean that we will carry on next Monday with this hearing.

MR PRIOR: Tuesday.

CHAIRPERSON: Tuesday, sorry Monday's a public holiday, so next weeks a three day week next week.  Next Tuesday - merely for the purpose of fixing a date so if anyone does wish to come and hear him I would not come here next Tuesday but make arrangements, I'm sure Mr Prior will inform you as to what arrangements are made if you are interested in hearing him.
	That being so we will now adjourn this hearing until next Tuesday at 9.30.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That will suit me Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position and it may have altered or may be slightly different down here, there are problems returning persons to the prisons at a late hour - is there no problem there?  But we have had other people who - although they haven't been working, they've been here all day and it's getting a little tiring for them I think.
	And I appreciate - you would want to consult wouldn't you?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So if we adjourn now you can consult now and we can start at 9.  If we don't adjourn now you will come along at 9 o'clock tomorrow and ask for time to consult.
	Right.  I think we will grant your application Mr Prior but there is just one point that we want to clarify here.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.
	Mr Madasi, just one very small point.  You gave feedback to Mr Leklapa and comrade Mzala, who is comrade Mzala?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was one of the names that we used, however his proper name was comrade Mandla, if that was his proper name.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you, we've heard of him.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	Just one small question, you said you received your training in the Transkei under Mzala, where did that happen?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: In Umtata.

MR LAX: And do you remember the year?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: 1992.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we will now ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, just one little last thing that I've picked up in my notes.   You said that when you took the Langley you spoke to the owner and you said you tried to communicate the conditions to him, those were the precise words you used, what did you mean by that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Explain again Sir, please.

MR LAX: I made a note of your evidence, when you took the Langley at Mdantsane, you said: "We talked to him, the owner, we tried to communicate the conditions to him".  I didn't quite know what you meant by that.  Those were the precise words you used and I wrote them down, what exactly did you mean by that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We gave him an explanation, that we are members of APLA and we wanted to go and kill white people, if he would hand over the car please.  We would give the car back to him in good condition.  However if it happens that, as we're going to leave him, he's going to go and report to the police he was going to lose his car because the police would come after us and his car would get damaged in the process and therefore to make matters easy he must cooperate.  I don't know whether he did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	We will now adjourn and we hope that we can commence at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, that is if the people can all be here on time before then because I am quite sure that the attorney would have overnight thought of a few more questions they want to ask.  So if they could be here by half past eight?  
	May I remind you please to leave your earphones on your chairs.  There is really no point in taking out of this room because they don't work outside.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR PRIOR: Well I beg your pardon. She came up onto the podium behind me and complained that they are feeling quite tired.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what time can we start tomorrow morning? We have got to finish this matter tomorrow.

MR PRIOR: Eight thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well I will try my best Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It will of course mean that the interpreters are even more tired tomorrow because it will be a longer day. Very well we will now reluctantly adjourn until eight thirty tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't you wait and say this when he is here in case he has any explanation he wants to place on record or deal with in any way.  I think it is unfortunate that it should be done in two separate bits and I think we can deal with this when he has arrived.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May we then proceed with the King William's Town Golf Club and I ask Mr Radie to come up to the podium.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you are prepared to have this proceed today without the presence of the applicants I understand?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It will of course be recorded and you can consult with the applicants if anything should be said which you think requires further investigation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR LAX: Mr Radie, is it correct that your full names are Raymond Julius Radie?

RAYMOND JULIUS RADIE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

RAYMOND JULIUS RADIE: (sworn states)

MR PRIOR: Mr Radie, is it correct that you are a member of Parliament, Nationalist Party and representative of the, is it King William's Town Constituency?

RAYMOND JULIUS RADIE: It is correct, I am a member of Parliament.  I have been since 1987.  At the moment I am a permanent member of the National Council of Provinces representing the Eastern Cape on behalf of the National Party.

MR PRIOR: Mr Radie, at the last hearing in April, the affidavit that you had prepared, the statement that you prepared was handed up to the Committee.  You confirm that affidavit, is that correct?

RAYMOND JULIUS RADIE: Mr Chairperson, yes I do, I confirm the affidavit which I prepared and signed on the 11th of March in Cape Town before Mr Ntsebeza, the Chairman of the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: It was handed in as Exhibit E.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radie, you subsequently contacted me and indicated that there were further matters or further information and further submissions that you wished to place before the Committee, is that correct?

RAYMOND JULIUS RADIE: That is correct Chairperson.  I felt that in the light of the allegations which were made in my absence by certain of the applicants relating to myself as being one of the targets of the attack, that I felt I should just amplify the affidavit before this Committee.

MR PRIOR: Could you please proceed with your further submissions and amplification of your affidavit, Exhibit E, thank you.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

CHAIRPERSON: We're obliged to you for the assistance you have given us but it does seem the employers are not.  And in those circumstances it is obviously important that he should give evidence, that we will have to adjourn the matter to a date to be arranged because it may not only, as I have already indicated to Mr Prior, he must ascertain whether the averments set out in the affidavit are applicable or would have reference to not only the present two applicants but any other persons.  If they do, they must also be given notice.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] be inquired into and we must ensure that when this matter is next set down for hearing, subpoenas have been served and notice has been given to all relevant parties.  And I would be obliged if you could explain to Mr Ncamazana(?) what would happen to him if a subpoena is served and he does not attend.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We now ...[intervention]  If you would tell Mr Jimmy Jones what would happen to him after he has received a subpoena and he doesn't come here.  We therefore have to adjourn to a date to be arranged.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless anybody has anything further to say or anything they wish to bring to our attention, we will now close this sitting.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, certain issues arose.  I just want clarity which I'd like to ask about three questions.  It's about Mr Gushu arising from suggestions that he may or may not have acted within his mandate.  I just would like to put to this applicant as to what actions, if any, Mr Gushu may or may not have done outside his mandate.

CHAIRPERSON: This witness did say he didn't know.  He wasn't present when the actions were committed, but for what it's worth, you can put it to him.

MR BLACK: Mr Mndebele, we've heard evidence you were a prominent member in the community and in Ermelo community and structures.  You're aware of the fact that one of the applicants, Gushu, was recruited in order to carry out the mandate to restore stability.  Now, the actions and as a result of Mr Gushu's activities in that community in carrying out this mandate, did that in any way improve the situation?  Did it in any way restore stability to an extent?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, Gushu did try to improve the stability problem even though it was not to a satisfactory level.

MR BLACK: And just for clarity.  Are you aware of any actions taken by Mr Gushu which may have fallen outside the mandate or outside his attempts to further peace and the objectives of the ANC?

JOHN MNDEBELE: What I know is that everything he did, he did so following the ANC and pursuing the policies of the ANC.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mndebele, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Just from people that I did not know well.  I don't know where they got - the source was, but I just bought.

MR SANDI: If I may ask, why didn't you go and buy bullets from Mr Pienaar?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Why would I go and buy bullets from Pienaar because I was going to get arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: So, Mr Gushu, you used all that R600,00 for the purposes of arms and ammunition?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did so in the furtherance of your orders?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else, Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes.  Mr Chairman, my watch says twenty five to five.  I realise that there has been a considerable amount of delay.  I have completed my evidence to a large extent.  I would like the opportunity before Mr Gushu gets into cross-examination just to go through everything to ensure that everything has been covered and that ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not certain that everything has been covered?

MR BLACK: No, but appreciate, Mr Chairman, once Mr Gushu gets under cross-examination then I have a difficulty in consulting.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, what would you have done had we been at 3 o'clock now?

MR BLACK: Well, the point is we're not.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR BLACK: I can't expect anything much further.  What I would like to canvass further with Mr Gushu is sort of like a conclusion of his evidence and there have been certain ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm telling you now, I'm persuaded that he was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe and that he fought for the liberation of our people.

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Etcetera.  What more do you want lead?

MR BLACK: Well, there have been certain approaches by members of the victims and families who I wasn't present, we've had discussions with them.  I'd just like to clarify what the position is there.  It will be simply like a closing off address of two or three paragraphs, and if the cross-examination isn't going to commence then I would just like not to have to come here tomorrow and ... (incomplete)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel have I asked you or did I skip you?

MR PATEL: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: None.   And how many applicants have we got left, ten?

MR PATEL: Exactly ten yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Dare I ask are we going to go any quicker next week.  Perhaps, perhaps and I'm not inviting to go further than next week on Friday but perhaps we should start thinking of dates also for further hearings.  The quicker the better because the rolls, the new rolls have not been scheduled yet and if we indicate to Cape Town Head Office that this panel is required in Ermelo on a particular week then it's easy for them to slot it in on the new roll, okay?  Then we'll adjourn till 1 o'clock on Monday.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR ZWANE: The life that we lived before is divided into two.   We lived peacefully before and thereafter there was violence.
	Now I would be very grateful if the Commission or the Committee would assist the community in trying to re-establish the ties that we once had as members of the clan, as well as members of the community who are now victims and families of victims.
	I think we can re-establish the ties.  I do hope that everybody now realises that there is nothing that we achieved from fighting and from the violence, that took place.  We cannot continue fighting in the manner that we did before and I believe that that is going to start with us as individual members of the community, victims in different ways, to start talking and start committing ourselves to peace.
	It is only then that we can achieve peace.  I think that the idea I have with regard to peace, because even if the violence would start once more, those who decide to fight, will fight, but at the end of the day we are left holding the shorter end of the stick, because we end up being victims or we end up being a society of victims and we end up having a generation of victims.
	It becomes a very vicious cycle, so I think we do need help as individuals, as a society, as a group, we do need help or some intervention from outer forces in order to assist us to achieve this.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you are happy, you really want to go through that process?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I think I am very committed to the process of reconciliation, because that was the idea in the very first place, to negotiate and achieve peace without having to use arms to fight, but our efforts proved futile, but I think now we have experienced a lot of pain and we do not want to go back to that situation that we experienced before.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You are excused.

MR ZWANE: I would like to take this opportunity and address the victims and the families of the victims.
	On my part, I do regret ...

CHAIRPERSON: Will you speak loud enough for them to hear.

MR ZWANE: To the families of the victims, I would like to say that I am deeply sorry for the part that I played in killing people.  That was not our intention that people should die, but it was to maintain peace and stability in Ermelo.
	I am very much aware of the consequences of our actions.  I do ask for their forgiveness from the depth of my heart.  But what I would like to point out is that today there is relative calm and peace in Ermelo and I hope that the people do appreciate the peace and calm that we have, even though we are from a past of violence.
	I request that as from today, we will look at each other as elements of human nature, and we should respect the sanctity of life and bring peace in our own community.  I thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I am talking about.  Are you willing to be part of that restructuring of the community, irrespective of political affiliations or creed, etc?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I am committed to that.  I want to be one of the people who is going to bring back the fabric of society that has been torn before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You are excused.

SILOS NKONYANE: Before I go away, may I please note that I also do regret what happened and I would like to ask for forgiveness to the families, especially the effected families, the families of the victims.
	It was the situation that prompted us to do that, but I do hope that you can find it in your hearts to forgive me for my past deeds.  I think you will understand the situation and you will not take it upon yourselves to avenge the deaths of the victims, because we want to rebuild the country.  Thank you very much.

<UNKNOWN>: .
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, that clarifies it, it is Bongani Malinga you were referring to.  Thank you.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Could I please just explain.  Basil Dhlamini, his other name is Bongani.  Maybe that might have created the confusion.

ADV SANDI: This general order you are talking about from Gushu, was it part of that general order that members of Black Cats should be killed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.  The instruction that came from Mr Gushu encompassed all that we were doing in order to bring peace, that fell under that umbrella.

ADV SANDI: I've got something in my notes where you say we used to talk about these people with Gushu.  Did you talk about specific people who were members of the Black Cats or did you speak generally about Black Cat members?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We just spoke widely, widely about Black Cat members.

ADV SANDI: The name of that Nhlabathi, did it feature in those discussions, did it ever come up?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: There is a mistake, Mr Gushu never uttered Obed Nhlabathi's name.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone of you whilst talking to Mr Gushu, ever mention the name of Obed Nhlabathi and how you perceived him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, we did not mention names, but we just mentioned the group, the Black Cats who were problematic.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

ADV SANDI: What are your regrets?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I regret having harassed some innocent members of the community and that the IFP used me in order to obtain it's own objectives.

ADV SANDI: What are you doing at the moment, what is your occupation?  Are you working?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I'm working at the Spoornet.

ADV SANDI: As what, I suppose as an ordinary worker?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I washing the trains, I'm cleaning the trains.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you change from IFP to the ANC?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I realised that whatever they were sending me out to do or the instructions conflicted with my principles and beliefs.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did it take you to realise that?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: It took me quite some time because I did want to get in touch with ANC members but it was not easy for me to just do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you're very sorry about harassing people both members of the IFP and members of the ANC?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you're sorry about?  You're not sorry that you took peoples' lives?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I never killed a person.

CHAIRPERSON: You agreed with Mrs Shongwe's murder?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You agreed with Carlton Maseko's murder?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You attempted to murder a person you didn't even know?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You attempted to murder and damage property belonging to the South African Police at that time and members of the Black Cats?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were party to attempting to murder some other members of the South African Police, no so?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you're not sorry about all those things?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I am sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you were asked by Mr Sandi why didn't you say so?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I did say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever in jail before?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: No.  I've been arrested and I've never been convicted and I've never spent time in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you found a job at the railways, how did you earn an income.  How did you survive?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I used to have temporary jobs at Albany that's how I survived.

CHAIRPERSON: I see and during your life you were at the Black Cats did you work?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Yes I was working.

CHAIRPERSON: How or with what?

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: I wasn't working in one of the General Dealers where I live as well as holding piece jobs at shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you're excused.

DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA: Can I say something with your permission Chairperson?  I would like to say to the members of the IFP as well as the community at large I am very sorry about what happened.  I would like there to be reconciliation just like we should live like we lived before.  That is all that I would want to say.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR WILLS: And when this plan was hatched or when it was communicated to you, Mrs Mbuyase, from the evidence you've just given, who was, as you indicated, one of the local IFP leaders at Esikhawini, was fully aware of the fact that this assassination was being planned?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And she supported it?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, she's the one who sent me.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Can you continue?
Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  What we would like as well, is at the time when submissions are made, either at argument or with the heads, the list of victims as well, I know Mr Patel has given a list here, but then that would also apply to Mr Ngubane who in the past has been representing the victims in KwaZulu-Natal.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chair.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we've now been requested as far as possible to make reference to the victims in our decisions for them to be forwarded on to the Reparations Committee for consideration there.  Thank you very much indeed everybody.  I'd also like to - I omitted to thank the legal representatives for the assistance they've given in the hearing as well, thank you very much in deed.  Thank you.  Bye-bye.
Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, do you have any questions arising?

MR STEWART: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions arising?

MR HEWITT: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions arising?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlongwane, you may stand down.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, you've forgotten Mr Ngubane, I don't know if he has any.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ngubane, ...[indistinct] so quietly, I didn't have any bad intention by omitting you.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising?

MR NGUBANE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I apologise for that.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it looks like the hearing is being abandoned.   ...[inaudible] lead him now, or tomorrow morning?

MR STEWART: At the Committee's convenience, there's not much time.  I'm prepared to start otherwise I'm quite happy to wait.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what my concern is, Mr Stewart, we'd like to finish this portion of the hearings by Friday lunchtime.  I don't know how long you anticipate the next two witnesses, that is Messrs Dlamini and Ndlovu, will take in comparison with the previous two we've had because if they take as long as these two, we're running out of time.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, Mr Wills and I have given this some consideration and we're both quite confident that we'll finish those two tomorrow.  There is a question which perhaps has not yet been raised with you about the possibility of reopening cross-examination on behalf of some victims who hadn't previously had notice, that's cross-examination of Mr Lethuli, time allowing.  Perhaps that's something we need to address you on in due course, but we're fairly confident we'll finish with Mr Dlamini and Mr Ndlovu tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well maybe we'll even be finished then with some time to spare tomorrow then and then that will leave that time tomorrow as well as Friday morning for any other matters to be dealt with.  I see that it is now ten to four, it's been a hot day, it's a very tiring day particularly for the interpreters who have to be working hard, so I think this might be a convenient time to take the adjournment and we'll adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR WILLS: You then contacted the Truth Commission because you wanted to tell the truth and they organised Legal Aid, and as a result of that I was eventually allocated to do the application.  Is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that the contents in your final application, the one where I was involved with submitting, is to the best of your recollections, the truth in this matter?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.

MR WILLS: Just for the record Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I have a letter which is obviously in response to the letter that was referred to by Mr Ndlovu earlier, which I would like to read into the record.  It's on an Inkatha letterhead, it appears to be signed by the president of the IFP, and I'd like to read this into the record.  It's dated the 20th of October 1997, it is an original letter for anybody to inspect.  It's sent to Mr Bertwell B Ndlovu, his prison number 93462925, Durban Correctional Services, Medium B C101, Private Bag X01 Westville
"Dear Mr Ndlovu I wish to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 24th of June 1997.  Thanks for your appreciation of the visit of Dr Giyane.  I'm also hoping that others that we sent to see you regularly, such as Captain Shlengwa and Ms Brits do see you concerning problems about special constables and other problems.  I do hope that you can discuss those things with the people that we send to the prison regularly.  You cannot expect me to comment on such things with you in an open mail of this kind.  Yours sincerely", and it's signed by the president of the IFP.
Thank you, that'll be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Sorry that can go in as an exhibit if it's required.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if a photocopy could be made of it and given to Mr Mpshe please.  Are you going to be leading, Mr Stewart and Mr Wills, any further evidence in respect of the applicants that we have heard so far?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, Mr Ngubane had indicated to me his intention of making an application to re-open the cross-examination of Mr Lethuli on behalf of the victims who did not have notice that Mr Lethuli would be giving evidence on incidents in this area in Durban earlier in the year, and that application is not objected to by myself on behalf Mr Lethuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, any further witnesses you intend calling?

MR WILLS: I don't intend calling further witnesses at this session.  Obviously at the Ermelo session.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Ngubane, I think - well we've long passed 4 o'clock now, it will be a convenient time to postpone.  Is there any other objection - or any objection at all to Mr Lethuli being called tomorrow morning for purposes of re-opening his cross-examination that has been brought by Mr Ngubane?

MR STEWART: I have no objection.

MR NGUBANE: I have no objection Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, then we'll begin tomorrow morning's session then with the further cross-examination of Mr Lethuli.  We will now adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning, in this hall at half past nine.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-14

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, I do not wish to put any further questions to him, other than my previous cross-examination in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, do you have any re-examination?

MR STEWART: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART

ADV MOTATA: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: None.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lethuli, you may stand down.  WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, do you have any further evidence to lead?

MR NGUBANE: No, Mr Chairman, I've no further evidence at this stage.  I believe that we are running short of time and the Members of the Committee intend leaving at this stage or soon after this.
	The arrangement that is per agreement amongst us is that the applicants are going to have a discussion with the members of the community, and if anything transpires from that, we'll formally report to the Committee in writing or at the argument stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you then, Mr Ngubane.  Mr Hewitt, do you have any evidence to lead?

MR HEWITT: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that then bring us to the end of these proceedings at Mpumalanga?
	Ladies and gentlemen, as you've heard, we've now come to the end of these proceedings, this portion of these hearings, we will continue with this hearing next month, on the 14th of September 1998, at Ermelo, where we will hear evidence again from certain of the applicants relating to incidents which occurred in the Ermelo area, as well as in the Bushbuck Ridge area.   
	I would, before we finally adjourn, like to express on behalf of the panel here, and indeed the TRC, our sincere appreciation to all the persons who made this hearing possible and who allowed it to run so smoothly as it did.  I would like to thank the authorities, and the mayor in particular, for the use of this wonderful venue, we found it to be very good indeed, the facilities were good, the catering that we received was excellent, we were indeed spoilt.  
	I would like to thank the persons who provided the security, that is the police services, as well as the witness protection programme people for the security they provided.   I'd also like to thank very much the interpreters for the very good work that they have done this week, it's an extremely taxing job that they do.  I'd also like to thank very much the people who attended the hearing.  For such a large audience, I must say the behaviour, if I can call that, the conduct of the audience was outstanding, very patient, and thank you very much indeed for everyone.  If I've omitted to thank any persons, it is without any intention.  Thank you very much indeed, we will now adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MR MALAN: That wasn't used but what was indeed, evidence was given if I understood that correctly, and the witness can correct me if I'm wrong, that one of the reasons for the interrogation was that they released information on these reconnaissance activities to the comrades that brought them into the house even before they were interrogated and it was to get further information on that that they were interrogated.  That was one of the reasons advanced to Advocate Bosman on here question.
	Now my question is, despite divulging this to the comrades that brought them there, this is before any assault as I understand it, why do they now suddenly deny even membership or affiliation to UDF and that acknowledgement, that confession has to be beaten out of them - to follow your own questioning at an earlier stage Mr Tloubatla.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: All the information that we got from members of the SOSCO was retrieved during the interrogation.  As a member of AZAPO I disbelieved that information, I felt that it was insufficient, we wanted to know exactly where the orders came from, we wanted to know who sent them, we wanted to know why they were executing that.

MR MALAN: Did they tell you?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, they told us.

MR MALAN: Will you share that with us please?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: They mentioned Masichaba's name who was a prominent UDF leader, she lived in that area.

MR MALAN: Was that the only name?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is the name I clearly remember.

MR MALAN: Were there no other names?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I only remember the name of Masichaba, I don't know whether in the other group names were mentioned.

MR MALAN: Did they admit to having burnt the home that you were cleaning up after the bombing?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, they agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: They agreed that they were present when Jeff's house was petrol-bombed.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not what you said a short while ago, you said only Oscar, you said Oscar is the one who admitted that the was present.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I mentioned Oscar's name because he is the one I interrogated a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you know it's not the same thing.  If you say Oscar admitted, it's not the same thing as saying that, as the answer that you have just given now.  You must listen to yourself when you give evidence.
	I think maybe we could adjourn here.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

MR MALAN: But weren't they collectively compiled by the legal teams after a collective briefing?

MR KLOPPERS: If we look at Mr Van der Schyff's application it's basically the same as ours until he decided to amend it and I find it quite strange that he amended it during the period of time that General Oelofse and the leader, Eugene Terreblanche and Van der Ronger, visited the prisons in order to enquire or request that we look at certain aspects of our applications.

MR MALAN: That makes much more sense to me, thank you very much.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kloppers you mentioned an explanation which Mr Van der Schyff gave to you.  Can you indicate very briefly what that explanation involved?

MR KLOPPERS: I must say that it happened quite a long time ago as you will see from the date on the letter, but the explanation was in relation to certain aspects of arrest and detention about him, about which was speculated.  As I remember correctly he had a girlfriend who worked at certain government institutions and that the had communicated with her which made it very clear to me that it wasn't about our amnesty or the shifting of the date or any extenuating circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kloppers - Oh I'm sorry, Mr Brink did you want to put questions.

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

MR PRINSLOO: Apart from murder you were also found guilty of the possession of illegal weapons.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Visser I see that in your amnesty application in Annexure A, page 91, that you mention that:  We fulfilled a protection service at some of the meetings where Eugene Terreblanche, Constand Viljoen and Ferdie Hartzenberg were present?  (Transcriber's translation)

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why do you call it a secret meeting?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: We were told by Chief Commandant Kloppers that it was a secret meeting.  (Transcriber's translation)

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you only involved with the security aspect or did you also attend the meetings.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: We didn't attend the meetings, we only transported the General and some of the other members to the meetings and ensured their safety.  (Transcriber's translation).

MS VAN DER WALT: I note also that you make mention that: General Oelofse informed us that the General Staff were invited by the South African Defence Force to view their weaponry.  Was that told to you?  (Transcriber's translation).

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: It was just told to us Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention on page 95 that during the roadblock - that is paragraph 12 - the AWB members were dressed in camouflage and you were easily identified as AWB members.  Is that correct?  (Transcriber's translation)

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention that Phil Kloppers was aggressive.  Can you explain to the Honourable Committee what happened there?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I think it was the person from the Honda, if I remember correctly, he didn't want to co-operate during the searching of his vehicle or he didn't want to climb out of his vehicle and Mr Phil Kloppers smashed the wind bubble with a (indistinct).  (Transcriber's translation).

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: We propose to adjourn until tomorrow half past nine tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, there is just one other matter, you will recall that when my applicant indicated that he had changed his written application, I indicated to the Committee that perhaps certain statement that were put on his behalf to the witnesses who had then already testified, should be presented (indistinct).  You ruled at that stage that it wasn't necessary, perhaps you would decide upon that later, and I think we have now reached that stage.
	My personal view is that our stance had been made clear and that perhaps it is not necessary to do so, but for in case anything may go wrong, or in case it may be said that it should have been put, I am still willing to do so if it is necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we know what emanating from those to whom you did put that, we know what the attitude is.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairman, then I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We will then ask that written argument be submitted and we don't know, we would like to get some indication from counsel when they would be in a position to do that.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, can I suggest we discuss this in Chambers, maybe we can then come to an agreement when to submit the written arguments?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I suppose so.  For the benefit of the public then, we have now come to the end of the evidence, we will reserve our judgment and then we will give our decision after receiving written submissions from all interested parties.  We thank everybody for their co-operation.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: We may I gather hear from you with a paid reference or two, but nothing else and Mr Prior you will supply us with a list (indistinct).  We'll adjourn to consider our decision which will then be announced in due course.  We that those of you who have attended the hearings for your patience ... (inaudible) various delays which we have been unable to avoid and we sympathise deeply, as I said in the hearing of the other matter, with both the victims who are present, but more so with the parents who lost the lives of their, I have no doubt, beloved sons in this tragic incident and we have, I speak now for myself and I'm sure for everybody else here, the deepest sympathy and extend our blessings to you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

JOSEPH KGOELE: My impression was that it was, the people had parked vehicles there for the day.

MR LANDMAN: In regard to people who may have left the Magistrate's Court through the back entrance at about the time the first explosion occurred, what did you expect those people to do when the mini limpet mine went off?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I had expected that the police would be the first people to come in and cordon off the area and the people who were leaving would run away.

MR LANDMAN: Then just lastly in regard to Mr Mabele, why did you ensure that he left the country after the explosion?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I feared for him, he was still young and I knew by then if he was known to have - the police would have discovered that he had supported that I'm, he might not be here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there also a danger if the police arrested him that he would disclose your identity and details about you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele before the explosion occurred that day, did Mr Mabele know what you were going to do?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No he didn't know anything.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

DR TSOTSI: (Indistinct) you parked a stolen car laden with a bomb next to the Magistrate's Court which was crawling, some police crawling all around the place, wasn't that amateurish?

JOSEPH KGOELE: By then the police didn't know that the car had bombs in it.

DR TSOTSI: This was a stolen car, weren't they looking for stolen cars?

JOSEPH KGOELE: You know we had studied the police modus operandi.  They only looked for a stolen car in Soweto, not in town.
WITNESS EXCUSED