Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

JUDGE MGOEPE: It just doesn't make much sense to me, why would, after discussing the matter with you, why would Mr van Vuuren no longer be sure as to whether you have done it, unless you said to van Vuuren, you are wrong, I didn't do it?

JACQUES HECHTER: I don't know, shall we ask him Chairman, I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But he discussed this aspect with you.

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes probably during September of October we discussed many incidents I can't remember Mr Chair, I could not have told him it had not been me.  I know that for a fact, I do not know if that was so.  Nobody would know, we sat through nights discussing these things, I can't remember anything.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well did you say to him that you didn't do it?

JACQUES HECHTER: I do not believe that I would have said
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that. I would have said that I can't remember it.  Of course I can't him that I didn't do it if I cannot remember the incident.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you say anything which caused him to doubt the correctness of what is written here in his application?

JACQUES HECHTER: I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You cannot remember what exactly you said to Mr van Vuuren when you discussed this aspect?

JACQUES HECHTER: Not at all.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It could be that you said to him, look I didn't do that, you did it?

JACQUES HECHTER: It can be true but I really doubt it, I can't remember the incident and therefore I can't think that I would have said that.  I cannot think that I would have said, well stop the lorry, it was me not you, I can't remember the incident and therefore I can't think that I would have said anything of the sort.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So we're left with a situation where each one of you says, well I don't know, it could have been the one, another one says, it could have been the other?

JACQUES HECHTER: Mr Chair, I accept as I said, even if he killed him, I accept the responsibility since I had been the senior person.  If he killed him it would have been on my order or according to my order.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe are there any questions you wish to put at this stage?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I do not have questions at this stage.  But may I mention to the Committee that I have just received from the Investigative Unit information pertaining to this very incident.  I have not had time to peruse it,
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it was given to me whilst we were busy now, but after perusing this, I may request that the applicant be recalled for me to put whatever I may discover in this statement, to him.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At this moment I don't have, I'm still perusing the document.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, if the evidence of this witness is to stand down, as it must because I don't think there would be any point in calling upon Mr du Plessis if there's any re-examination, that should only be done after such questions as you may have, that you want to put to him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Indeed Mr Chairman that would be the correct procedure.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  Well once we've completed this evidence, what do we proceed to next Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, after completing this evidence there will be nothing to continue with today due to the fact that we shall be left with the evidence of Mr Mentz who is not in a position to testify today, we shall adjourn until tomorrow to continue with Mr Mentz.

HASSAN MALL: Is that the only matter?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Those will be the only matters left.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  Well now, that being so, how much time would you require to go through that document?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, ten minutes would be apposite.

HASSAN MALL: Should we adjourn for a very short while, five minutes or so, or ten minutes, would it inconvenience anybody?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I think Mr Chairman that speaking for myself, ten minutes would suffice, and for my learned friend as
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well.

HASSAN MALL: Mr du Plessis would it inconvenience you?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Not at all Mr Chairman. I may mention that the only matters which seem to be left would be the matters ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: There are two, one is, you've reserved your decision in respect of Mr Cronje?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes, but I think Mr Chairman, I'll give you the final decision tomorrow morning but I think I have given you an indication of my view on that, and then there are only three incidents of Captain Mentz.  The three applications of Capt Mentz.  Then I may mention, Mr Chairman, just to put you in the picture, I intend recalling Capt Mentz in respect of the evidence of Ngqulunga.  We have obtained various parts of records of previous evidence on that incident and I intend to deal with that also tomorrow.

HASSAN MALL: Very well, we'll adjourn for a short while, I'd like you to call us as soon as you're ready.  The purpose of it all is so as to avoid breaking for lunch now unnecessarily and then coming back and finding that in ten minutes everything is over.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ..in five minutes, if it is permitted that we resume at a quarter to two.

HASSAN MALL: Alternatively you can proceed with the matter.  I understand the photocopying is done for our benefit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Mr Chairman it is not, no.

HASSAN MALL: Oh, is the photocopying for your benefit?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I just want to make a copy for the witness, so that when I read he must know what I'm reading and whether what I'm saying actually appears on the statement, that's all.
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HASSAN MALL: I see.  In the light of what you say it seems prudent that we adjourn now and we will resume at two o'clock.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm indebted to the Chair, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank Mr Chairman.  I am indebted to the Chair and the Honourable members of the Committee for the time given to make necessary arrangements.  Mr Chairman I have no questions to put to the witness anymore.  Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Mr du Plessis any re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS

HASSAN MALL: And you did indicate that there's a likelihood that we will be able to receive the psychologists report sometime during the course of tomorrow is it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman I am going to have a discussion with the psychologist again this evening.  I will get an indication from him when he will have it available.  He is based in Stellenbosch and he has a practice to run, so if it is not available this evening I am not sure if I am going to have it ready during the course of tomorrow because I won't have anybody to go and fetch it.  So there is a possibility that we might have to deal with it the next day but we will try our utmost Mr Chairman.  It's nearly finalised.  I had a discussion yesterday with him.  There were certain problems but that provisionally is the situation Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis I must warn you that we can't allow this to carry on because the day after tomorrow, if we CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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finish tomorrow we will do other work and we won't be available to hear this matter any more.

ADV DU PLESSIS: No I understand that completely Mr Chairman and I give you my assurance that I am trying everything in my power.

HASSAN MALL: Very well you are excused.  Thank you.

JACQUES HECHTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman then that sums up our work for the day.  May I request that we adjourn until tomorrow and tomorrow we will deal with matters on page 1.  Those are the only outstanding matters.  The Kahn House incident, Vereeniging incident and the Komatipoort Four incident.

HASSAN MALL: Can we make a beginning at nine o'clock tomorrow morning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is in order Mr Chairman.