Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MS REDDY: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, Committee Members, audience, all I wish to submit at this stage is that can we really believe what the applicant has said us today?
In his bail application previously he said that he was nowhere in the vicinity of the farm.  Can we really trust what he says today?  In his trial in the Supreme Court he actually said that he was not guilty, he put in a plea of not guilty.  Can we really trust what he is saying? 
	The victims, as evidence was led, were old feeble people.  There was no reason for killing those two victims.  Evidence was also led that these people were feeble in that they could easily been taken advantage of.  
	If we ought to go back to the sentence that the Honourable Justice Hugo delivered, it relates in the sentence that there could have only been one motive for these killings and that was of greed.  As evidence was led by Mrs Julia Ferrero that the family was relatively wealthy, this lies in support to that evidence. 
	He couldn't prove to this court that he really was a member of the ANC.  He couldn't show this court any documentary proof.  He didn't bring any witnesses to testify on his behalf that what he was really telling this court was the truth.  Mr Chairperson, that is all I wish to submit at this stage, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I have no submissions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Have you got anything you want to add Ms Loonat?

MS LOONAT: Just two questions Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS LOONAT IN REPLY: My learned colleague raised the issue of my client pleading not guilty at the trial and he does not deny that but his explanation was, as I recall, that he was brainwashed by his comrades when he attended these meetings, he was brainwashed into the fact that you do not tell on your comrades you just keep quiet and take what comes and this is what happened.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just put one question to Ms Loonat, please Chairperson?  Ms Loonat, how do we explain that if people went to a farm with the intention of not harming the residents and they know, at least two of them know, that they are possibly going to be recognised because they are known to these people?
How do we explain the fact that they took no precautions not to be recognised?

MS LOONAT: My client I seem to recall said that Mrs Ferrero would not be able to recognise him for some reason but did recognise Mduduzi and that is why he had to kill Mrs Ferrero because she recognised Mduduzi.

ADV BOSMAN: Well the question is should we believe that?  Your client worked there about a year prior to the incident.  Mduduzi was obviously known, surely in planning the operation they must have said well, these people know us or we know these people and they go there taking this risk of being recognised and they want us to believe that they had no intention of doing anything about it?

MS LOONAT: My submissions are from the instructions that I've been receiving that my client's mind was not so sophisticated at that time, he was actually just being led by his leaders and didn't think further as to having to conceal his identity and things, he just went in there with a political motive of removing firearms and run.  Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am, is there anything else you want to add?  You were dealing with the fact that your client pleaded not guilty?

MS LOONAT: That's right Mr Chairperson, just one more thing.  The position about his documentary proof, he's been trying to say time and time again he doesn't have it, he doesn't deny it, he said how he has come about it, it is lying at home, it's just that he has been incarcerated and he has just not been able to get it.  His family are not even here to support him today and on the issue of trying to get witnesses to prove his point, he has stated that he has written to these people in the light of the amnesty applications and asked them to come in line with him and he's got no response because his hands have been tied because he's been in prison and he is just not able to make that communication and it's unfair in his opinion that there were so many of them that were actually involved and only the three of them were finally arrested and he was charged and sentenced.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes that concludes the formal proceedings in this application.  We will consider the matter and we will formulate a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit at which stage we will notify all of the parties with an interest in this matter as to what the decision in the matter is.  So under those circumstances the decision is reserved.
	Well thank you Ms Loonat and Ms Reddy, Mr Mapoma.

MS LOONAT: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't mean to interrupt but you were just saying that the interested parties here at the end of the session.  Is the applicant's attorney sufficiently an interested party?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes absolutely, this is his application.

MS LOONAT: We are just not notified at any time as to what has happened.  It's been one in all the incidents that I've done and that was after I wrote up to the Truth and Reconciliation to tell us please what has happened to our clients and we're just not getting that response back and we would like to know.  Could you please when you do that make sure that we are informed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, would you take that up with Mr Mapoma?

MS LOONAT: I did and I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who represents that side of the Committee here.

MS LOONAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I apologise for interrupting.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will make the decision available once it is ready.  We'll now take the short adjournment, we'll reconvene in 15 minutes when we will proceed to deal with the next matter.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS