Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you. John? Thank you. Bongani?
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BONGANI FINCA: Chairperson, I've got two questions to your relief! You have   referred to resolutions and statements and how good churches are in writing   these and publishing them and make them known and then hide behind them. I think   a number of us will find that statement very true, because if the resolutions   made by churches were acted on, we would have been an example of an obedient   church in the light of racism. And that confession, I think, resonates with   a number of us who belong to the church. In your way forward you then report   to us a resolution or a statement which perhaps needs to just be interrogated   a little bit. Where you say the UCCSA wishes to place on record its respect   for the TRC and its hard work, please be assured of our prayers and support   for your task which is so crucial for the future of our land. My question is   how much of this is representative of the church that you speak on behalf of   ? How many members of the church, I know it's very difficult to say how many,   but in terms of how much is the church making its own membership respond to   the TRC? And how much of it is ending at the level of the top leadership in   resolutions which do now get filtered down to the membership of the church?
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JOHN DE GUCHI: Thank you for the question. I think it would be helpful   just to give some background in order to answer that question. The majority   of the church, the UCCSA, is black. Only 5% I think it is, is white. And the   majority of the black membership, I think it is something in the region of 55%,   is so-called coloured. The church is, to a large extent, a rural church. Very   large concentrations in places like the Northern Cape, Botswana and so forth.   And that all reflects something of the old missionary tradition. I mention this   because the reconciliation that has to take place within our church is less   between white and black, although that of course is important but it's a small   white constituency, of the 350 congregations you can understand, not many of   those are white, but there is a struggle in terms of the relationship between   South Africa and the christians in Botswana and Mozambique and these are very   important issues which we don't think should be lost sight of in terms of the   work of the TRC. The relationship between South Africa and the other countries   of Southern Africa in terms of the role of the church (this has been eluded   to earlier today by the Church of the Province so that when we are talking about   reconciliation, that is a very important factor that has to be taken into account   and secondly, the relationship between coloured members and African members   in the church. This is an area, I think, that is still to be worked through,   and I am not sure that it has been dealt with at all hitherto today in this   Commission.[TAPE 5]..research that has been done recently on reconciliation   within the coloured Catholic community in the Western Cape for example, the   word "reconciliation" means something quite different to what we are   talking about here today. And we need to recognise that and I think this is   true within our own church. How to deal with these issues that are issues of   the future is going to become quite critical and it has to do with a whole range   of issues which I needn't allude to here. The role of the church in regard to   this is going to be crucial and I think the fact that the church does exist   in all the kinds of communities, is critical. I am not sure whether that answers   the question, but I wanted to take the question, the answer, to a different   point and maybe you anticipated
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BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Dr de Guchi. My second question perhaps related   to the answer you have given to the first one and I wanted to direct it straight   to you if I may. It is on the question of the statement which was made earlier   by the CPSA in their very moving submission to the Commission this morning.   Bishop Nuttal drew a distinction between costly reconciliation and cheap reconciliation.   At the time I did not have the chance to ask him to unpack, although I suspect   I know what he means, but I do not know how much is being said from churches   in their teachings to their own members about the real cost of reconciliation   and how much people in this country today think that reconciliation is going   to come out just very cheaply. Is there work that is being done in terms of   spelling out, unpacking the concept of reconciliation and how costly and painful   this process is if we are to follow it in this country.
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JOHN DE GUCHI: That is clearly not a question addressed to the UCCSA but   more broadly and I'm happy to respond. It does, I think, I think it is clear   that reconciliation is a long process and it's already been said many times   by the Chairperson of this Commission and others that when the work of the TRC   ends, reconciliation still has to be achieved. This is a catalyst and I think   today we have been celebrating in some ways the many people who have suffered   and died in the struggle against apartheid, who identified themselves as christians,   and who, I believe must be regarded as the martyrs of the struggle in South   Africa. I think it is very important for us to remember them because it reminds   us of the cost, not only of achieving what we have achieved so far, but that   what still has to be achieved will be presumably at cost as well. Hopefully,   not at as great a cost, but nevertheless, at cost. And we would want to, as   a church, identify with what the ICT said earlier this morning, and with what   was said by Professor Terblanche; we wouldn't want to comment on the economics   of this in terms of its economic correctness, but unless there is a far greater   sharing of the wealth in this country, unless there is money that will bring   about the kind of drastic reparation that is required, there will not be reconciliation.   And in this respect, can I just make one please, we are a relatively small church,   but we lost 400 mission schools, we had about 100 churches removed by Group   Areas Act. That's a small church, suffered in that way. Other churches which   are much larger suffered more greatly in terms of buildings and loss of schools   and that's been alluded to by the Catholic Church and others. I hope that in   the whole question of looking at the role of the church in the future, and talking   about the role of the church in terms of education and other things, that this   be kept in mind. I don't think the church is asking for reparation, that would   be totally out of place in terms of the enormous reparation that has to be made   to the poor people and the victims of apartheid, but it is indicative of the   cost that the church has to face, and we need to take courage and strength from   those who during that period of time held the faith courageously and to realise   that that is the tradition in which we stand and to which we have to align ourselves.   So yes, indeed, reconciliation continues to be costly.
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