Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: He had not opened it yet.  This man went towards the front, do you hear me?  As the truck was faced towards the front, on the righthand side the driver, they started with the girl on the left and as the father was running towards the front, I don't know whether he had a gun or not, then this man went towards the front so that this person does not go to the door.  He was pointing a gun at him and then he shot at him and again but then we had dispersed and we were running away.  We had dispersed, it is when turned back and looked backwards that we saw that the truck was driving off.  He then said to me: "I am dying now", do you understand me?

ADV SANDI: I do understand you but I just want to be clear in my mind.  You mean to say that he did not even begin to try to open the door, the door was not even half open when he was shot?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Not at all.

ADV SANDI: Was the window of this particular door open?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: That I did not take note of but he was not even close to the window.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR BOTMA: Mr Manjibani, when you saw the truck leaving, did you see any other bakkie following that truck?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: A van driving from where we were or when the truck was driving off?  What are you saying Sir?

MR BOTMA: The truck, when the truck left after the shooting, did any van come from the tar road side and then following the truck?

UNKNOWN: Before the police came?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: No, I did not see a van.  I can't say I saw a van.  In any case I was busy at the time.  Even before I was busy with the milk.

MR BOTMA: I'm talking about after the shooting when you saw the truck driving off, did you see a van, a Toyota van coming from side of the tar road and going past you on that spot on that road?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: No, I did not see a car.  The only van I saw is the police van.  This is the van that we put Mr Meyers in and we left with him.  That van was from the direction of Umtata, a police van.  I did not see any other van.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Manjibani, am I correct to say that you were inside the truck when these two men approached you?

UNKNOWN: You really mean at the back rather than inside Mr Mbandazayo or?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman, at the back of the truck.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: What is the question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were at the back of the truck selling milk.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you are at the back of the truck are you able to see what is happening in front?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I can't see.  I am the one who was measuring the milk, I was focused on what I was doing.  I could not really look at any other thing at the side.  They just tell me: "Here, put so many litres, there put so many litres", I was just focusing on the milk.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So when you heard the first shot you continued after the first shot, you poured milk in, is that correct?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: That is the time I also was trying to jump from the truck.  The owner of the car was then trying to go towards the front and then this other man was already pointing a gun at him, going towards the front.  He then hit him the first tim and then the second time.  This is when we started running away, dispersing.  That is how it happened.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm trying to get at Mr Manjibani is that whether you saw the person who was shooting in front, did you see him?

UNKNOWN: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, if you could just be clear.  The person was shooting in front, on this version two people shot from the front, can you explain which shot you are referring to?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, unless I've got it wrongly, what I gathered is that the same person who shot Donnie is the person who also ran in front and shot Mr Meyers.  I may have got it wrong Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: As I recall the evidence, two people went around the left, not one.

MR LAX: That's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Let me then rephrase my question.  Did you see, after these two men said that you are milking in Elliot, did you see them thereafter?  Did you see what did they do thereafter?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: What they did is that the one was left behind, one went to Donnie's side, the one man.  He is the one who caused the bang.  Then the other one went to the right side to make sure that Meyers doesn't take anything, he then shot at Meyers.  I saw all this with my own two eyes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me get this clear Mr Manjibani, you said the other one was at the back, the other one was at the front, the other one, the one who approached Mr Meyers is the one who was left behind, the other man.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: It is the one that was left from behind,  the other one was in a different position altogether but two men arrived.  He could, the one could say: "go the other side and we must do what we came here to do".  There were two of them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Manjibani, just to assist us, two men approached, you are now saying one remained at the back, one went to the front, a shot was fired, the second one moved, did he go left or did he go right?  Can you just clarify that for me.  I had understood you to say the other one went left as well but I'm not so sure now.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I did not say anything about the second one, please listen carefully, when they arrived there were two of them, the one went towards the front and shot.  I realised that he was shooting the child, then this one went towards the right where he must have known that there must have been a weapon.  He then shot him before he got to the door, he then shot him again.  This is when we ran away.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Manjibani, am I correct to say that you did not see the person who was shooting the first shot?  Am I correct?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: It would be the same as if I didn't see him but I could never identify him, even if you'd put them here in front of me now.  Are you listening to me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I'm getting you, I'm not saying you know those people, I am saying that you did not see them when they were pulling the trigger, that is what I'm trying to get at.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's not the question you put to him, the question you put was: "you didn't see him", where he has said the two men came at the back of the truck, one went round and then he heard the shot.  I think you should make it clear that you're talking about the time the shot was fired.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	What I'm saying is that you did not see the man who went up front, to the front.  You did not see him pulling the trigger, you only heard the shot, am I correct?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I did not see him shooting but it is him who cause that because when he was on the passenger side I heard his shot and then he did the same to Meyers.  Who then shot?  Who then shot, when you think in your own mind.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Manjibani, I thought that I'm following you now, now you are saying that the same person ...[intervention]

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I'm not scared to tell the truth.   You are here to represent your people, you're going to speak up for them.  Even if you want me to twist this thing around, you are their lawyer isn't it?  However, I'm not a lawyer, I'm here and I'm telling you what I saw with my eyes, that is all.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Then I ...[intervention]

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: You are giving me problems.  Do you know where I'm from?  I'm here from a long distance, I - it is four towns that I passed, I drove ...[intervention]