Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

CHAIRPERSON: When you made a statement, I think it was Waterval, where was it, where were you?

MR LAX: They were both at Westville when these two statements were taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when you made the statement?  At which prison?

MR LAX: In July 1999, where were you, at which prison?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Waterval prison.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was at Westville?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he made his statement the day before you did?  Correct?  We showed you that?  Correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't know that he had made a statement the previous day, did you?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, I only got that from Sheila and Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know what he said in his statement?  Correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, I did not know what was in his statement.

MR LAX: With regard to the rest of this matter, you have heard the evidence of both Mr Malevu and Mr Mpanza, do you confirm that as far as it relates to you, that it is true?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I do remember some of the things, I think that is true, but the testimony, more especially Mr Ziba's testimony took a long time.  I cannot remember everything he said in his testimony.

MR LAX: Did you know Ziba before you went on this operation?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes.   We were not friends, we were not as close, but I used to know him.

MR LAX: How was it that you just ended up going on this operation?

MZWAKE SHANDU: At first Malevu came, a person that I used to know very well, and a person who was a neighbour, who were friends, and he came to me to tell me, he actually asked for assistance, weapons, firearms and ammunition.

MR LAX: Why would you have weapons and ammunition and firearms?

MZWAKE SHANDU: In his mind, as a person who was working in the Police Force, he thought that he might get some assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of a political organisation at that stage, at that time?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was just a supporter.  I was not a card carrying member.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a policeman, though?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, as there were other white policemen, who were also supporters in some political organisations.

MR LAX: Where were you stationed?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I started in Durban North and then I was transferred to Umhlanga Rocks.  The incident took place while I was working at Umhlanga Rocks.

MR LAX: What was your role in going on this mission?

MZWAKE SHANDU: While we were ready to leave for Empangeni, they told me that they did not have enough ammunition for the 9mm firearm.
	I had some that I could give to them and then we left for Empangeni, driving in a car.

MR LAX: What was your role on the mission, just to supply ammunition?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was just one of them, and implicated as them in the operation, from the time they approached me, because I was going to play a role when we arrived at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, you knew that these people were looking for arms, was it explained to you that "look, it is for political reasons"?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, I was briefed because they even told me that the money that they were going to get there, was going to be used for a certain purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you are a policeman at Umhlanga Rocks police station?  Isn't that so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want you to confirm because I have never worked in a police station, but I understand each police station has a gunnery, or what they refer to as a gunnery, where they put all the guns or an armoury, something like that, is that correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct, but it is not all the police stations that are equipped with that facility.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you people in  Umhlanga Rocks police station keep your firearms?

MZWAKE SHANDU: It is a very small police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in the police station did you keep your firearms, I did not ask what the size of the police station was?

MZWAKE SHANDU: There was a safe and the only firearms are there for guard shooting, they were not sufficient for the operation that they were going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: How many arms were in that safe?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I can remember two, HMC and a shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you, where were you employed before Umhlanga Rocks, did you say?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was in Durban North.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an armoury there?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, there was, though I did not have access to it.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not talking about access to it, why do you talk about that?  Anyway, how many guns were there?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I never counted them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there many, there must have been many then, if you cannot say how many?  Correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, there were many.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew the inns and outs of the police station in Durban North, because you worked there, correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Would you please repeat your question, I did not understand?

CHAIRPERSON: You knew what the rosters were and you knew your way around the police station in Durban North, not so?  You worked there?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I did not know everything, I only know things that were related to my duties.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you knew there were many guns there, and you knew where it was kept in the armoury there, correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As being employed by the South African Police Services, although it was at Umhlanga Rocks, you were able to find out what the rosters were at Durban North, not so?  A few questions here and there, you would know who is on duty and who is not on duty, not so, and when?  Correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there would be times that there would only be two people on duty in the charge office, at any given time, especially at night, not so?  Correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What stopped you and your colleagues from going there to the Durban North police station one night, when only two policemen were on duty, to go and rob that police station of all the guns in the armoury?  That would have sorted out the problem that you people faced?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Two policemen who were on night duty, where the police who would be in the charge office, I am not talking about the police who would be patrolling with a van.
	There was, there has never been a shift with only two people.

CHAIRPERSON: There would be two policemen to defend the police station in Durban North, at night, you people were four?  Is that not so, or five in fact, maybe?  Why was it so impossible to overcome these policemen, when you knew how to go about your way there in the police station, you worked there?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Even if we were then, that was not going to render any help, because they came to the armoury, I didn't even know where it was kept, up until my last day at that particular police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consider that plan?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But shouldn't the police on duty have access to the armoury because you never know what happens during the night, police sometimes need the arms?  Is that not true?  So the key must have been in the vicinity of that charge office?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was a problem there that the police required firearms, then the Durban North police would not have been able to help, they would be rendered inefficient?  Is that what you are saying?

MZWAKE SHANDU: There would be an R1 that was kept in a safe in the charge office, and one big rifle, but not other key to the armoury.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, have you got any more questions, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: No Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MR LAX: Chair, I've just got one question.  What portion were you supposed to receive, what portion of money were you supposed to receive, or is just another mistake that was made in your affidavit?