Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, I would not give a specific name, no.  I would not give a specific name or where.

CHAIRPERSON: In this case that you have just mentioned now, the Klein's, I am not sure how they pronounce their name, you said that Mr Klein was considered to be a collaborator in that he was a police reservist and a member of the Labour Party.  What about Mrs Klein?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, Mrs Klein fell into the same category as being in the crossfire and going after enemy personnel and collaborators.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, you addressed Mr Klein in this incident on the basis that he was the police reservist and the person who participated in the Labour Party activities, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: As I understand it, the handgrenade attack, you say was designed and directed at Mr Klein?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Mrs Klein unfortunately got caught in the crossfire?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: You mentioned something about how the handgrenade attacks were to be carried out.   You spoke about the difficulty that if it were thrown without the glass of the window being broken first, it may bounce back?

JUDGE PILLAY: No, what he said Mr Dehal is that his instructions were to see to it that it was thrown through a window of the house, rather than against the wall, to avoid it bouncing back and injuring themselves.  That is how I understood it.

MR DEHAL: Thank you Judge, thank you.  Is there anything that you wish to add to that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: At this stage I just wish to add that as with the other incident where there were injuries in the Chamberlain Road, I am sorry for the injuries and in the first incident, the deaths I have caused in these operations.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, you deal with that aspect I see, later in your statement.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: But for the time being, we will just confine ourselves to the operations.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Okay.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  We now go to the Edendale Hospital escape of Gordon Webster, which took place on the 4th of May 1986.  This is an aspect that you were charged with and the trial dealt at length with this incident, do you recall?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: And it is actually item 14 on page 8 of bundle A1, do you see that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, it has come now to be colloquially termed the Edendale Hospital saga, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: This operation you say took place on the 4th of May, but its planning was well before that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: Can you then deal now with the content of Exhibit G, relative to this?
MR McBRIDE
	"Some time during the end of April, I obtained knowledge that Gordon Webster who was my Commander at first, but who had not separated into another unit, had been arrested and injured by police, and was held at Edendale Hospital in Pietermaritzburg. 	As a soldier of Umkhonto weSizwe, the first thing one does in captivity is to try to escape.   I, myself, escaped from detention when I was in detention as my first sign of resistance to my capture.  I was shot and then recaptured.  Secondly, if one of your comrades are captured as a soldier, it is your duty to help them escape.   Any soldier does that anywhere in the world.   On these grounds alone, I initially decided that a rescue operation should be mounted."
	I just want to add if there is ever the contention that I did it because Gordon Webster was my friend and close associate, yes, he was my friend and close associate, but that was not the reason why I decided on the operation.   
"Gordon was really my senior although now in a different command.  The moment he was captured, I assumed command of both units.   I then assembled both units and put a plan into place to attempt a rescue.   The reconnaissance took place on a daily basis at the hospital and over a lengthy period."

JUDGE PILLAY: What would that lengthy period be?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I cannot remember exactly sir, but it would be from the time I first found out and the time I first decided to carry out the operation, until the day, even the day just before the operation.

JUDGE PILLAY: Approximately how many days between your obtaining this knowledge and the operation?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I would say anything between seven and ten days.
"People involved with me in the operation were Matthew Lecordier, Greta Apelgren, Thembawelile Khumalo who was from Gordon's Pietermaritzburg unit, Antonio du Preez and my father, Derrick McBride who volunteered to be part of the operation when Naziem Cassim refused to assist.  This is the second time Naziem was not available for an operation to which he had previously agreed to be involved in.   The comrades in Pietermaritzburg were contacted about the proposed operation   (I am sorry, this is not correct), the comrades in Botswana were contacted about the proposed operation and gave us the go-ahead."

CHAIRPERSON: We delete the word Pietermaritzburg and substitute it with Botswana?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct sir.

MR DEHAL: I apologise Mr Chairperson.
MR McBRIDE
	"They also gave us the go-ahead to use material which was in the possession of Gordon Webster's unit, to help us effect the attack.   
	The attack was planned to take place after visiting hours, so that there would be a minimal number of civilian visitors at the hospital.  The reason was that it would have been easier to effect the operation with the least number of people around.   
	The initial plan of the operation was that a hole would be cut out in the fence at the back of the hospital so as not to attract attention.  The getaway car would be parked next to the fence with its hazard lights on and its bonnet up to indicate that it might be broken down.   We would enter from the back, go the second floor where Gordon was being kept, hold up the police, subdue them and lock them in the laundry room around the corner.  The information we received from contacts in the hospital was that Gordon was able to walk.  This information was later proved not to be true, he was unable to walk.   
	Having subdued the two policemen, we would have taken Gordon out, loaded him into the van which was the getaway vehicle, dress him up and take him, exchange cars (I think there might be a grammatical error there) and he would be in a car with Greta Apelgren, a different car who would then drive him back to a designated spot.  The weapons that were used in the operation, would be handed over to Themba Khumalo  who would have already dug a hole in preparation for putting the weapons in there and covering them up.  His job also included as part of the operation, detonating two handgrenades in the vicinity of a police station in the opposite direction to which we were travelling, so as to draw the police to that area and to enable us to effect a getaway.  The reason why Themba was the person instructed to do this was that he was from the area."

MR DEHAL: Sorry, you mean from the Pietermaritzburg area?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, from the Edendale area, yes from Macabisa.