Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-25

CHAIRPERSON: ... and it is said that he has vital evidence to give to this Committee, arising out of his contact with the leaders of those organisations. This may have a direct bearing, I am saying it may have a direct bearing on the outcome of this application.
	My Committee has considered this submission made by the professor and we have come to the conclusion that his request for a postponement has been well-motivated and we agree that this application should therefore be postponed. 	Whenever applications are set down a number of people are involved in these proceedings in the preparation, a number of other victims are involved, some of whom may be travelling considerable distances to come here and may well arrive, perhaps due to no fault of their own, may well arrive late, who have an interest in this matter, and it is a pity that inconvenience is caused to a number of people by postponing this application. It is unfortunate that such inconvenience may have to be caused to them.  However, the reasons which we have been influenced - the factors which have influenced us, leaves us with no alternative. We are therefore of the view that this application will have to be postponed to a date that must be ascertained by Mr Mpshe and with the representatives of Mr Cassandro.
	Now counsel for the applicant, it is unfortunate that you have taken the trouble to represent your clients, and it is unfortunate that an inconvenience in this case is caused to your clients and to you.  But, in this case it seems that your clients are not in prison, they are free citizens and a further postponement of this application would not have the same hardship that it would have, had they been people who were serving terms of imprisonment and awaiting the outcome of a decision by the Amnesty Committee.
	I trust that you will convey our feelings, our disappointment that we can't proceed this morning, that you will convey that to your clients.
	My colleague here on my right, wishes to make a statement as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, we would like you to attend to this matter as soon as possible.  As you are aware we really do not have much time left as a Committee to conclude our work.  We are greatly disturbed by the fact that we are unable to start with many of our applications because of delays caused by legal arguments, which ultimately lead to matters being postponed or lead to several adjournments.  We would like to make sure that when we do have an application, we are able to start and to really start on the issues at
hand, which impinge on the application of the applicants.  This really is not directed to Mr Mpshe only, but we would request counsel to really have serious consideration on the limited lifespan of the Amnesty Committee and to try their level best to make sure that we are able to consider the applications and I am sure this may be obviated by having a proper pre-trial conference and having a will to really try and get on with the merits of the matter.  We are really making a strong appeal to both Mr Mpshe on behalf of the Amnesty Committee and to counsel representing the applicants.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: May I say that if, for any reason whatsoever, it becomes ...
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PROF DE KOKER: ... The second matter, the first one being the subpoena to Mr Phosa in connection with the relevant information in connection with these applications.  The second one is a request to this Committee to ask the investigative unit of the TRC to do a full investigation of the breaches of the National Peace Accord, as posed by this particular attack.
	I mentioned earlier that there is no indication and no information put in front of this Committee of the broader issues surrounding this particular march and the attack, and I believe that that has a very important bearing on the decisions to be taken by the Committee, and that the appropriate body to do an objective and full investigation of the matter in order to furnish you with a report, would be the investigate unit. 
	A third matter arises from my discussion with Mr Cassandro.  It was pointed out during that discussion that Mr Cassandro believes that the United Nations would appreciate notification of these proceedings, because it is apparently customary for them to send a representative or to participate in the proceedings.  Apart from such an invitation, Mr Cassandro also drew our attention to the fact that a full and complete investigation of the incident, as conducted by him, was furnished in a report to the United Nations and I believe that that report would also be of great assistance to the Committee and the information in that report in order to enable this Committee to reach the correct decision.
	And lastly, if you would indulge me, Mr Chairperson, this is the second time that this particular hearing has been set for Bloemfontein.  We believe that this particular incident touched the very heart and fabric of the society in Kimberley.  We would in all earnest request you and Adv Mpshe's office, to consider seriously holding the next round of hearings in Kimberley. We also would like to request you, because this is linked with this matter, to ensure that everything is reasonably done to ensure that all the victims with an interest in this affair, can participate freely in the proceedings should they choose to do so. As we have all experienced this morning, clearly the geography involved does make it more difficult for such victims to participate.
	Thank you very much for your indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Boder, this last point that has been made by Prof De Koker must touch on you and must have some effect on your clients.  Have you anything to say against this suggestion?

MR BODER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would strongly wish to support the recommendation made by my learned colleague, Prof De Koker.  As we have experienced this very morning, is that a number of the victims had great difficulty in arriving at Bloemfontein. The distance in order to travel from Kimberly to Bloemfontein is approximately 175 kilometres and it is not easy for them to attend a venue scheduled for two days, with specific reference to accommodation, meals and so forth. Especially in this matter, Mr Chairman, where there is a large number of victims that are involved. I would therefore suggest that it is highly recommendable that they should be given the opportunity as well - not only the members, but members of the families to be present at such hearings.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Chair ...

MR VISSER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just take over from what Mr Boder has stated with regard to the victims.  Mr Mpshe, are you able to give us an indication of how many victims we are speaking of here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We are speaking of 43 victims.

PROF DE KOKER: Excuse me, counting 44, including Mr Cassandro, who was not included in the list of 43.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the 43 would be coming largely from Kimberley?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Mr De Koker, you have made mention of a report that was compiled by Mr Cassandro and submitted to the UN.  Are you or your client in possession of such a report in fact?

PROF DE KOKER: Unfortunately not.  Mr Cassandro simply mentioned that to us during the informal meeting. I don't know whether he has a copy at his disposal in Angola, but I am sure that arrangements could be made with the United Nations.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?