Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR VISSER: And your evidence is going to be to the extent that it was who, who was responsible for this according to your intelligence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Units under the command of Zandile.

MR VISSER: And do you have names?  Who is David Majurai?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: David Majurai part of a unit within the Butterfly unit, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: But this incident does not fall under the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And the last item there, 7th September 1986 page 22.  The Pick 'Pay Supermarket, Old Mutual Centre in Montclair?  You also refer to that item or it's referred to in that item during the interrogation of Zandile, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And what became apparent from that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That the people who were responsible for that act of terror where a person actually died, were David Majarai and others.

MR VISSER: And lastly is the incident on page 29, the first incident, 12th April 1987.  Detective Warrant Officer Lembedi?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And he died, as is alleged here, in a shoot out with terrorists in a certain area Umbumbulu, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who is that Lembedi, Mr Botha?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It's Warrant Officer Lembedi who was a member of the security branch, Durban.

MR VISSER: What I really want to know from you is that the same person which is referred to here by Rosslee and Wasserman and others in the Bhila incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  It's Michael Lembedi.

MR VISSER: And according to the intelligence or information we're going to get to now, who was responsible for his death?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was the unit under the command of Zandile.

MR VISSER: Without going into too much detail, those are the features I think, with respect, appearing from Exhibit A.  It has other values as well but those are the features on which I wish to concentrate, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Whilst we're busy with this Lembedi incident.  In the shootout were all the terrorists killed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.  This was a trap.  Michael, Spyker Mhieza and I imagine there was a third member as well.  They were en route to an investigation in that area.  They were looking for this group of terrorists, locally trained terrorists who hid themselves in that area and in this trap Michael was shot dead and the other members injured.

MR VISSER: Including Spyker Mhieza?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: My question is, did you arrest any of the people who were responsible for this trap?  Did you know their identity, did Mhieza not know them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, can we then go on to a discussion ...[intervention].

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] know the identity?

MR VISSER: Are you asking me, Mr Chairman?  No he didn't - they did know the identity at the time, the witness said Mr Chairman, at the time of this incident.  Later on, later on of course there was information that came to the fore and we're going to lead evidence about that.

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Visser.  Mr Botha, the question is really, according to this register you never prosecuted anyone?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Now if the units were known, why not?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Because the units were not arrested or because they take the escape to Swaziland.  The specific circumstances around this unit I do not know.

MR MALAN: But how do you know it's this unit if Mhieza didn't know it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: During this incident, they worked with information which said that people were giving, people training in that specific area.

MR MALAN: Maybe I can make it easier.  Do you accept that all the units were under Zandile's control?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, this was information she gave to me whilst we interrogated her.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: We'll get to that now Chairperson.  I know this is going on forever and you have to be tolerant but it's difficult to try and present all of this in a sensible manner.
	Let's get to Operation Butterfly, please tell the Committee what was Operation Butterfly all about or what do you know about that operation?  Maybe you can refer to

EXHIBIT H: whilst you give evidence, I do not know if you have a copy in front of you but please feel free to refer to Exhibit H.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, Exhibit H page 1, that does not give a complete picture of what Operation Butterfly was all about.  The information is not complete and consequently one should not use it as a guideline when thinking about Operation Butterfly.  Butterfly was the first attempt of the ANC to create an internal command structure which would have existed out of the following.

MR MALAN: You do not have to dictate to us, you can just give evidence, you don't have to go that slowly.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I'm just trying to give people time to write down.  The local members of the structure were not merely trained abroad.  Supplementary to them, there were four terrorists who were trained outside the country and they acted as instructors for people who would have been identified or were identified by this internal component.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, I'm just going to interrupt you, just to get things together here.  In your main evidence yesterday you said or you referred to the shift in training of terrorists, the shift from external to internal, is that correct?  This is now the year when it's manifested?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The codename of Butterfly stands for an area, political and military committee which meant that externally trained terrorists together with an internal component becomes a command structure which identifies people and military train them and task them to commit acts of terror, a complete operation inside the country?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did they also have something to do with the expansion of structures?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, politically as well as militarily.

MR VISSER: Now let's get to the personalities who were involved with this Operation Butterfly.  Can you point out to us maybe with reference to Exhibit H?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If we can start with Swaziland, Chairperson.  The name Raymond Lala should be added to that.  He was the liaison person between the external and the internal component.  He operated under the code name of Bruzia, alias Peter Patel.  He's currently the commander of the investigative of Natal, of the detective unit of Natal.

MR VISSER: Tami Zulu?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Tami Zulu was the commander of the Natal machinery in Swaziland at that point in time.  E.G. Lawrence or Ralph, alias Veer, was the chief of operations.  A person with the MK name of Rabbit was the chief of ordinance.

MR VISSER: And would be the tasks of the chief of ordinance?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Supplying of weapons to the internal component.

MR VISSER: You speak of 1985 now I assume?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Internally the persons were Bula Melekhate, Dr Sibo Ungoseni Nglomu and Dr V.J. Ramlakan.

MR VISSER: Very well you have skipped a paragraph there, you previously said that Operation Butterfly consisted of two components, the internal and external component and you have told how they liaised with each other but as to the external component you have missed that those are the externally trained cadres?