Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, have you got any questions?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, have you got any questions?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, just one or two, not many.  Mr Fourie, maybe you want to put the earphones on.
	Mr Fourie, amongst the AWB members that you knew from your time as a member of the AWB, did any of those members ever express a deep hatred for black people?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No Mr Chairman, with honesty I can say there was never hate that I saw.  These people I could see believed the way I did, that there is a purpose to achieve.  But of hatred I cannot talk.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a specific word to describe black people in the circles of the AWB?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, certain utterances were made by for example the leader of the AWB.  There was certain utterances made, but there were the person asked me that question, there where we were, I could not see hatred, no I did not see hatred.

CHAIRPERSON: These utterances or expressions that were used, what was that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: At previous meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Any meetings?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: They would say board were put up of kaffirs and what you heard here.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we understand each other.  What type of words were used in the circle of the AWB to describe black people in general?  If you referred to black people, was there a specific description that was given or words that were used?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Where they talked about the ANC and the SACP, they talked about the ANC and they talked about the NP government, that were the words as I heard it.  I cannot say the other words, because then I would lie.

MR MALAN: Mr Fourie, I don't know if you do not understand the question, when you spoke about black people at certain times, amongst the people in the AWB, did they refer to them as people with dark skins or did they talk about them as black people or bantu, how were they referred to?
	Were they referred to in any negative terms, did they talk nicely about them?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: There was never nice talk about them, because they were the enemy.  They spoke about the ANC and a lot of them spoke about kaffirs, but the discussions always centred on the ANC.  That is how they expressed it.

CHAIRPERSON: And the people who belonged to the IFP, what about them?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: They were Zulu's.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie, I am not quite sure of your evidence.  When the pipe bomb was placed at the cafe ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, there was a dispute as to whether it was placed or thrown.

MR LANDMAN: Maybe I can be even more general than that, at the time that the pipe bomb exploded, was your intention to dissuade people to go and vote so that when the voting opened later that week, there would simply be no voters at the voting poll, at the polling booths?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was to dissuade the people, to discourage them from going to vote.

MR LANDMAN: So you wanted to create a situation where everybody stayed at home, rather than went out to vote on the appointed day?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: So the effect of your bombing as I understand it, would only be felt on the first polling day when one would then see that nobody had gone to vote?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that was the purpose to disrupt these elections.  That is how I understood it, there shouldn't be an election despite anything.  That was how the instructions were given.  The elections must not take place.

MR LANDMAN: And the election was not to take place because nobody would go to vote, is that - do I understand it correctly?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is also the way I understood it, that is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So the bombs did not go off in order to dissuade the government not to hold the election?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: The government as well yes, the government was part of the purpose, we wanted to stop them.

MR LANDMAN: You see that is what I don't understand.  If you were trying to stop people from going to the polling booths on the first day of the election, then you would only know whether or not you would succeed on the first day of polling, isn't that correct?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: What happened on the first day, I don't know about that.  I do not know anything about the elections.  I believed it was going to be stopped, because they said that the people all over the country, would boycott this thing.
	I did not really concentrate on us, I did not think it was only us, I believed what they said, the whole nation would rise up and stop this.  So, how it actually went at the elections, I do not know.

MR LANDMAN: I am trying to understand your motivation, are you saying that you planted, the bombs went off in order to stop people from gong to vote or did the bombs go off in order to persuade the government to cancel the elections?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is what I said, it was to discourage the people from voting, and to stop the government from holding the elections.  They had to cancel it or postpone it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you believed that what the AWB did that day, there was a good chance to get these results?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Sorry Chairperson, could you please repeat, I took the earphones off while you were speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe at that time that what the AWB did, would have positive results?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I believed that.

CHAIRPERSON: You would have caused fear amongst the people not to go to the voting polls and that the government would cancel the elections?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I believed that absolutely, that is the way I believed it.  I had no doubt that it wouldn't work, because those leaders announced it like this.
	It just had to happen like that, there was no doubt.

CHAIRPERSON: During that whole time, I think six bombs exploded?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I do not know the amount, but a lot of them went off.

CHAIRPERSON: Seven.  The last one was at the airport?  Only seven bombs in the whole country went off during that time?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that is what I learnt Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How could that stop the elections?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression as they were talking that this was supposed to happen all over the country, in each province, this would have happened.
	I did not know that it was only the seven.  I believed what the people preached from that stage and what they informed us.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wouldn't have happened in Natal, because the Natalians were with you?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, the group from Natal was only a Special Force Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: The important men from Natal are not in Natal, they are with you, so how could bombs have exploded in Natal?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I do not know who gave them instructions to go where we were.  I believed that they were called up for a specific purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the bomb, when you made this bomb explode, did you not see that this is not working?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Because nothing is happening in the rest of the country, except that the people are preparing themselves for elections?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Up until the point when the people were arrested at the shooting range, and when I was on the run, in June, I still believed that this was carry on, that these people are going to do it, because when we went to Ventersdorp, before we went back to the shooting range and we saw the people going to fetch food supplies, they still told us you will not be caught, this thing is going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, then I don't understand.  How long were you on the run for?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: April, May, June.

CHAIRPERSON: But then the elections were over?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.