Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

UNKNOWN: Let's come to your account, then we'll go to the other person.  You said you went to Gelegsweg(?).  In your statement you said - you said it was a stronghold of the Three Million Gang.  Did these people of the Three Million Gang have houses in that area?  How did it come that that became their stronghold?

WITNESS:   It is because they were chasing people out of those houses and they would occupy those houses.

UNKNOWN: You are saying they were chasing people outside those houses?

WITNESS:   Yes. Were they paying rent?   ---   No, they paid no rent.

UNKNOWN: When they were occupying these people's houses what would these people do?

WITNESS:   We were able to flee to other places.

UNKNOWN: Are you one of the persons who was chased out of your house?

WITNESS:   Yes.

UNKNOWN: You didn't say that, that you were chased out by this Three Million Gang.  So you fled to your sister.  Can you explain well that immediately after you fled to your sister what happened on the 23rd of November?

WITNESS:   When I fled to my sister's house his uncle said to him, "You are called at Trebol."

UNKNOWN: The time when you were fleeing to your sister's house what year was that?

WITNESS:   It was the same year in 1991.

UNKNOWN: Who said to your husband, "You are called by Trebol"?

WITNESS:   It was Twala.

UNKNOWN: Is that Twala?

WITNESS:   Yes.

UNKNOWN: May you continue.  Then after they said you are called at Trebol what did he do?

WITNESS:   We didn't want to go there because our sister said we should not go there.

UNKNOWN: Continue.  Then he was talking to your sister there.  That's when my sister would continue with the evidence.

UNKNOWN: We'll go to your sister.  You said Twala was working together with your employer.

WITNESS:   He was not working with my husband.

UNKNOWN: Who was working with your husband?

WITNESS:   No, nobody was working with my husband.

UNKNOWN: Was he not working at Premier Milling?

WITNESS:   No.  My husband was working at Premier.  Twala was working at municipal offices.

UNKNOWN: Continue.

WITNESS:   We were able to go to Gelegsweg.  Then when we arrived there he went to Trebol.   Then I said they should take him to Trebol because I last seen him when he went to the shop carrying a baby.

UNKNOWN: May you tell us what happened to the child?  What happened to the child?

WITNESS:   When he was still carrying the baby I - I didn't see well.  I only saw when he was assaulted.

UNKNOWN: You said somewhere that Twala asked your husband that he must come and stay at your house - at his house, because he is going somewhere.

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember that.

UNKNOWN: So he came and stayed at Twala's house?

WITNESS:   Yes.   Then Twala went to Parys?   ---   Yes.

UNKNOWN: Then your husband left to go to the shop to go and buy a drink.  Then what happened?

WITNESS:   Then a certain man who was working with Mr Twala came to inform me - to ask me where is Mr Twala.  Then he was not able to explain to me that they have abducted my husband to Trebol to be assaulted.  What kind of a place is Trebol?  Is it a location?   ---   Yes, that Trebol is the same as Gelegsweg.  It's a certain section of Gelegsweg.

UNKNOWN: Continue.

WITNESS:   I am not sure how he was killed.   We are not yet at that part of his killing.  We are still there where you said he was abducted, then you went to tell your husband's family.  Do you remember that evidence?   ---   Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember when you went to tell Selena Kau?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Continue.

WITNESS:   Then I went tell the late Selena Kau about what happened, and then he went to the place where they've abducted him.  And that house was a two-roomed house.

UNKNOWN: Whose house was that?

WITNESS:   It was owned by a certain lady called Dikeledi.

UNKNOWN: Then thereafter?

WITNESS:   When he arrived there Mr Ramasimung started with the assault.  Then Selena rushed to her aunt.

UNKNOWN: What is the name of her aunt?  What is the name of his aunt?

WITNESS:   It's Anna Nako.   When Nabo(?) was trying to intervene they didn't want to listen to him, they were continuing assaulting my husband.

UNKNOWN: In your statement you said there was a policeman called John Masoleng.  Do you remember saying that?

WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: What was the part which was played by John Masoleng?

WITNESS:   Then I ran into the house so I didn't see what exactly happened.

UNKNOWN: Then what about Butelo Masibo?  Who is he?

WITNESS:   It was the brother to Dewitty.

UNKNOWN: Is he still alive?

WITNESS:   (No reply interpreted)

UNKNOWN: Where does this person stay, the person you have referred to?

WITNESS:   The person is still staying at Gelegsweg.

UNKNOWN: You said they took him to a two-room belonging to Dikeledi.  Do you know any reason as to why they took him to that two-room?

WITNESS:   I do not know the reason why they took him to that two-room.

UNKNOWN: Did Dikeledi meet them first?

WITNESS:   Dikeledi was a member of this Three Million Gang.

UNKNOWN: She was a member?

WITNESS:   Yes, she was. In your statement it is written that when the deceased went to the shop he was accompanied by a four-month-old baby.  What happened then?   ---   The child was taken by my aunt.

UNKNOWN: What is your aunt's name?

WITNESS:   Her name is Ndamane.

UNKNOWN: Her surname?

WITNESS:   Ndamane is the surname, and Mary is the name.

UNKNOWN: Where does Mary stay?

WITNESS:   She used to stay at Trebol, but she has moved to the township now.  She is at Marian township.

UNKNOWN: If we want to get information from her will we get hold of her?  Do you have her address?

WITNESS:   Yes, I have.

UNKNOWN: Before we carry on let us listen to your sister.  Letitia, tell us briefly what you know.  Do not repeat what she has already mentioned.

WITNESS:   It so happened that Three Million was fighting the Premier Milling workers.  It was actually targeting the Premier Milling workers, as well as the political organisations like ANC.  Now, because of this situation people used to camp.  Trebol was actually built for elderly people, but how Three Million came to stay in that area nobody knows.  It so happened that people took different directions, they left this area, and my younger sister and her husband came to stay with me.

UNKNOWN: Were you staying at Trebol?

WITNESS:   No, I am staying in Constantia.  I got married there.

UNKNOWN: When they came to stay in your house were they already driven out by the Three Million Gang?

WITNESS:   Yes, they stayed with me, and Twala came to my house for the first time.  And I didn't give them permission to leave.  We were not safe at all, but we have given up hope.

UNKNOWN: Just tell us who is this Twala?

WITNESS:   Twala was a member of this Three Million, because his son was also a member of the Three Million Gang.

UNKNOWN: Do you know Twala's child?

WITNESS:   No, I do not know his name because the Three Million members wanted his son, and he decided that he should leave the area.  And I didn't want to give permission to my little sister, but we knew that we would be attacked at any time.  The deceased never went to bed.  He used to spend his night on a chair, and the members of the ANC and the workers of the Premier Milling would come together and camp for the night.  As I was sleeping her husband was at work, and a message was brought home that she has to go and see the husband.  And I wanted to go to Dodo.

UNKNOWN: Is Dodo your brother-in-law?

WITNESS:   Yes.  And I wanted to go to his workplace to tell him, to inform him that he shouldn't come to Trebol.  We didn't give permission for them to leave on many occasions until Twala came personally to take them.

UNKNOWN: When you say they took him, do you mean they said, "Come we want to see you," or they took him by force?