Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS J BERLIN: I think it's working now. Yes.  Shall I just ask you again.  That you stayed for six months in Ashton Park and then you were taken to Cheronto.  And would this be in January of 1982.  Cheronto being in Zambia.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it's on the border line of Zambia and Zimbabwe.

MS J BERLIN: Then you were taken to a recruitment centre in Lusaka, and you met some people you knew from Port Elizabeth.  These were friends of yours?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it was friends from Port Elizabeth.

MS J BERLIN: And how did they end up in Lusaka?  Could you tell us that story please?

JIMMY MBANE: They had completed their training and their office bearers there.

MS J BERLIN: Yes, I am sorry.  I just needed to think a little here.
	Did you stay there for six months, that would take us to June/July 1982.  And then in paragraph 10, you were taken to Tandera.  Could you tell us where Tandera is?

JIMMY MBANE: It is in Zambia, Lusaka.  It is the base of new recruits.

MS P BERLIN: And you spent almost nine months there, is this correct.  I think you told me that it was six months, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it's correct.

MS P BERLIN: So you spent six months there?  And what did you exactly do there?

JIMMY MBANE: We were undergoing political education as to how the ANC operated and we were waiting for the correct passports because we were using false documents then.

MS P BERLIN: And where were you going to if you needed passports?

JIMMY MBANE: I was to go to Angola for training.

MS P BERLIN: And the Vienna Camp, is that a transit camp where you stayed first when you entered Angola and then you were transferred to the training camp, Kashid?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it is a transit camp in Angola where you undergo training.

MS P BERLIN: Did you undergo training at Vienna Camp?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I did not undergo any training in Vienna, only at Kashid Camp.

MS P BERLIN: And what exactly were you trained for in Kashid Camp?

JIMMY MBANE: It was military combat work that we trained for and military engineering, firearms training and artillery.  And political education of the ANC as well.

MS P BERLIN: So, this training at Kashid Camp in Angola lasted for six months, so you would, so we can assume that you graduated from this training and by June 1983...

JIMMY MBANE: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN: And then I understand it that you would like to go back to South Africa.  Tell us what you wanted to do when you were ready with your training.

JIMMY MBANE: I wanted to come on a mission in order to fight in the country.

MS P BERLIN: And exactly why did Chris Hani refuse you to go back to South Africa and send you to the USSR instead?

JIMMY MBANE: He said it was very early.  Papers were sent from the Headquarters in Lusaka instructing me to go back to the Headquarters, but because of some confusion, I landed up in the Soviet Union, but I was not supposed to go there.

MS P BERLIN: Why is this?  Where were you supposed to have gone?

JIMMY MBANE: I was supposed to go to Lusaka, not the Soviet Union.  That's why they recalled me from the Soviet Union to return to Lusaka.

MS P BERLIN: And what did you do in Lusaka?

JIMMY MBANE: From the Soviet Union I went to the transit camp in Vienna.  There I didn't stay for a long time and proceeded to Lusaka, where I got my instructions.

MS P BERLIN: And are these instructions...let me see...are these the instructions in paragraph 14?  Instructions to go to Port Elizabeth and then eliminate a Security Branch Police by the name of Van Rensburg and other two brothers?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN: Can you please clarify for us who these two brothers were?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Tungata, and his brother Macici.  I don't know his real name, I only know his nickname.

MS P BERLIN: Were these blood brothers of Van Rensburg, or were they shall I call it "cultural"  brothers, black brothers?

JIMMY MBANE: They were working with Van Rensburg in the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, but I asked you about the two brothers.  Who were they, were they brothers of Van Rensburg?

JIMMY MBANE: No, they were not Van Rensburg's brothers.  Van Rensburg was a white person and the other two were Xhosa's.

MS P BERLIN: I see.   Thank you.
	Then in paragraph 15 you met Flint Moore again.  He assisted you with your passport.   Now you had got your instructions to go to Port Elizabeth on this mission and Flint Moore assisted you with your passport.  Was that a South African passport you were issued with?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it was a South African passport, but it had already expired.

MS P BERLIN: But did you have any problems in entering South Africa in spite of the fact that the passport was expired?

JIMMY MBANE: I had to go the High  Commissioner of South Africa to apply for a new passport, and I did exactly that.

MS P BERLIN: And you got your new passport?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I did.

MS P BERLIN: Then you had to wait in Bulawayo, and you stayed there for a very long time, or stayed very long in Bulawayo Hotel waiting for weapons to be delivered.  How long a time did you stay in Bulawayo?

JIMMY MBANE: It might have been three to four weeks.

MS P BERLIN: And then you are stating that you talked to Lennox, one of your commanders, and he recommended you to contact you father and ask him for money, since you had spent so much in Bulawayo.  And then you met Sheriff, who was from Ordinance Department, and then you went to meet your father.
	Can you explain what Ordinance Department is, please, shortly?

JIMMY MBANE: I talked about Lennox - Lennox was my second in charge after Chris Hani.  He gave me money to the value of R1500.00 because we were both from Port Elizabeth, and he gave me R800.00 to hand over to his brother and then proceed to Harare.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us Chris Hani, in your previous paragraph, you said Chris Hani gave you R1500.00, and Thozamile Botha gave you R500.00 to give his brother.  Now do you say it's Lennox?

JIMMY MBANE: Chris Hani and Lennox gave me R1500.00.  Thozamile Botha is from Port Elizabeth, he gave me R800.00 to give to his brother.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, but you talked to Lennox about getting more money, didn't you?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I never spoke to Lennox.  He was accompanied by Chris Hani.  And they both gave me money.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, thank you.  I think I'll leave that.  It's maybe not relevant.
	We'll skip to paragraph 16.  You were...there was a person called (...indistinct) who brought you weapons for this mission in Port Elizabeth.  What kind of weapons were brought to you?

JIMMY MBANE: It was a Makarov and two boxes full of ammunition and three magazines full.

MS P BERLIN: And you went to South Africa and you came to Kimberly and there you couldn't proceed because you didn't have any money.  You left your bags at the station and took your weapon with you and took a walk about the place.  In which way did you leave your bags at the station?

JIMMY MBANE: I left them in the baggage cloakroom.

MS P BERLIN: What was in the bags.

JIMMY MBANE: It was my clothing. I took my firearms and ammunition with.  It was only clothing inside the bag.

MS P BERLIN: And why did you not leave your weapon in the bag?

JIMMY MBANE: As a trained person you are not allowed to part with your ammunition, it's like your wife.  You must carry it with you all the time.  Thus I could not possibly leave it at all, because there would be a risk of anybody else finding them.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you.  And paragraph 17, you say "I moved around in Kimberly".  Do you mean you walked around in Kimberly, looking for the UDF's offices, hoping that they would give you money?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I thought they were going to help me.  They had to help me because UDF was working with the ANC.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, and you walked around all the time?