Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR HUGO: And is he still in the South African Police?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: What is his rank at present?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Captain.

MR HUGO: Who else?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: ... [inaudible], Mdotana.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And he's still in the South African Police?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the gentleman?  Could you just repeat the name for me please?  The name.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Mdotana.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HUGO: Any other names that you can remember?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't recall others.

MR HUGO: Well let's just go through the names that were part of your secret unit.  Bongani Wana, was he one that assisted you with this?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, he didn't assist me with this.

MR HUGO: Nombanga, also known as black cat.  Did he assist you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR HUGO: Pugela?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR HUGO: Nkalane?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR HUGO: And Colonel Booi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, Colonel Booi assisted me.

MR HUGO: Yes, with this particular statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Which was not a correct statement, is that correct?  You agree now, with hindsight, it's not correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: And is it true to say that this particular statement was drawn up to conceal the correct facts?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: And where is Colonel Booi at present?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He is a pensioner.

MR HUGO: And the General, I'm sorry I can't pronounce the name properly, Kawe?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.  He is also a pensioner.

MR HUGO: Yes, did he assist you with this?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, he didn't assist me.

MR HUGO: And to the best of your knowledge was he aware of this cover up?  Of this cover up, in the sense that you were making a statement containing facts that were not true or at the very best, half truths?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Maybe he had a knowledge about it.

MR HUGO: Why are you saying that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because firstly he said, the statements should be made by me, myself and Braam Moss.  Secondly he said people who are going to be charged, it's myself and Shabalala.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And you deduced from that that he knew about this cover up and he was part and parcel of this cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Mr Dandala, how many other operations were you involved in with members of the South African Police in the Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was this one only.

MR HUGO: This was the first one and the last one?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: When you appeared in the Supreme Court in Umtata for the first time, can you remember that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't remember the date.

MR HUGO: No no, not the date but the incident, the fact that you, can you recall your first appearance in Court?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: With whom did you appear in Court as your co-accused?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: With Shabalala.

MR HUGO: Mr Shabalala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Were there at the Court during your appearance, were there any other South African policemen present when you were in Court?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, there were no other policemen from South Africa.

MR HUGO: Do you know Mr de Kock?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know him.

MR HUGO: Was he present at Court during the first appearance?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say he knows him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know him.

MR HUGO: No.  So you wouldn't be able to tell us whether he was
there?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, I couldn't be able.

MR HUGO: Had he been there you would have recognised him though?  Today you would have?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  When?

MR HUGO: Had he been there the first time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Then you would be able to tell us that he was there though?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot be able.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dandala what are the reasons for you to apply for amnesty in this Committee?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The reason that I killed Batandwa because I had already heard by the members I was going with that he is a trained terrorist and for the fact that he was running away then I was trying to stop him from escaping and for the security of the then Government.

MR DUKADA: Those are the reasons for you to apply for amnesty in the Committee?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, that I have killed him.

MR DUKADA: Let me just go through the, you have made a number of statements over this incident, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: More than four statements?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Now in the statement you made immediately after the killing of the deceased, can you turn to Page 18 of the bundle.  On Page 18 of the bundle, the very last paragraph, you say that you killed the deceased because he was attempting to escape from local custody, do you remember that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, I can see it.

MR DUKADA: And in this statement you never mentioned at all that you were threatened by askaris to partake in the killing.  Do you agree with me?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: If you can go through it?

MR DUKADA: Yes I can give you time to go through it, you never mentioned at all that you were threatened by askaris to participate in the killing.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, there is nothing.

MR DUKADA: Yes, why did you not mention that?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did he not mention what?  That he was threatened by?

MS SIGODI: Askaris.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman the witness in his evidence in chief mentioned that the reason why he participated in the killing of the deceased was because the askaris had earlier threatened him that if anybody does not co-operate in their mission they kill that person.  The question I'm asking to the witness is why did he not mention.

CHAIRPERSON: I think more accurately would be the witness that in the conversation it emerged that the askaris kill a person who does not participate in the operation and that he was of the view that they may well do that to him as well.  Do you understand the question sir?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I understand the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What is your answer?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Maybe in my memory then I didn't recall it.

MR DUKADA: But this was an earlier statement.  You made this statement on the 13th November 1985 and the one you are relying on today for the amnesty, you made it only on the 4th June 1998.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Why do you now recall only on the 4th June 1998 that you were coerced by askaris to kill Ndondo, yet on the 13th November 1985, three months after the killing you don't mention that in the statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I have said earlier that some members were trying to assist me in telling me that I mustn't disclose everything by then so as to destroy my co-accused at Court.

MR DUKADA: In other words in this statement dated 13th November 1985 you deliberately omitted to mention askaris?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: In order to protect Shabalala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Can you look at Page.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told us earlier on that the reason why you didn't mention that in your statement was that it didn't come to your mind, at the time of making of the statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I said maybe in my memory then, it didn't come into my mind but now I do recall that in some cases they were telling me that I mustn't destroy them.