Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman maybe at this point I must just formally apply to obtain access to this particular docket if it is still available. It appears that the document appearing on page 16 of the bundle is part of this document. And this is numbered A20. So we can all safely assume that there are at least another 18 documents or statements in this docket. And I have reason to believe that it will shed a great amount of light on the cover-up that took place in this particular matter. We haven't had sight of these other documents. I know that my learned friend has indicated that he has in his possession the unsigned statements by Bra Mos and Shosha. But I think it would be of great importance to this Committee if we could get access to all these documents. And it will to my mind reveal a lot of information that needs to be brought to the attention of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma do we have the docket here? The docket of this matter?

MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson we don't have the docket as the docket but we do have some documents which seem to have been extracted from the docket. But the entire docket as it is we don't have it.

CHAIRPERSON: But do we know what happened to the docket?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately Sir I don't but I think the variety of documents that we have with us perhaps my learned friend if he catches sight of them perhaps all the documents contain that he may require in the regiments that we have.

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest that after we adjourned today and before we resume the next hearing perhaps Mr Hugo and Mr Mapoma and the other legal representatives should get together and see whether they can locate either the docket itself or the other statements which were made. Conduct further investigation. I understand that Mr Dukada has certain statements which may also be of assistance I gather. Do you want to say anything?

MR DUKADA: That is correct Mr Chairman thank you. Mr Chairman in support of what has already been said by my colleague Mr Hugo I happen to go through a wad of documents which I received from the TRC office. One of the documents is the inquest findings. An inquest was held in this matter and the magistrate at Nxala made findings. And in the second document which sets out a list of statements which were submitted at the magistrate, one of the statements is that of Mr Shabalala and the first thing I ask from Mr Mapoma whether the statement is available. Because all that I found is only the findings of the magistrate at the first page of the inquest record and the second page which consists of the various statements which were submitted at the magistrate. I suggest that if Mr Mapoma has access to the inquest record or any other person that would be helpful for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have the record of the inquest?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson I think I must explain this once again. We don't have the inquest record with us. The information that we received was that from Nxala the inquest record was alleged to have been taken by the police at Queenstown where Inspector Jordaan is also involved. And we pursued this with Inspector Jordaan. He said they don't have this inquest record nor the inquest findings. What he has with him there are the extracts of the statements that were made to the inquest proceedings. And those documents all that he had are the documents that he handed over to us. We do have some documents with us which we received from him. But we cannot say that there are some documents which he has that we do not have. All I am saying Chairperson is that all the documents that we managed to get from Inspector Jordaan are with us. Some of those documents relate to the inquest proceedings and any party is welcome to have access to those documents. They are with me. I do have them.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't had sight of those statements Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: No Mr Chairman. Not at all. And let me just put it clear for purposes of the record I am not suggesting that there is any improper conduct from my colleague's point of view. We are just trying to get as much information as possible. May I also just put it on record that I intend arranging for a subpoena to be issued against this Colonel Willy so that he can come and explain to us where he got his information from but that will obviously be dealt with at a later stage.
	Mr Shabalala (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) this matter now. At a convenient time would you make whatever documents you may have to Mr Hugo and see whether you can collate those documents and see whether they tie up with the sequential numbering of the documents that were supposed to have been in the docket. And then perhaps Mr Dukada may also share whatever documents he might have with the rest of the legal team. But it seems to me that an attempt should be made to locate the docket as far as it is practical for you to do so and also if necessary to speak to is it Inspector Jordaan who took the statements in 1997. See what happened to the docket. And try and get whatever documents that are available in regard to this matter as we can gather. Okay?

MR MAPOMA: Certainly Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well. Thank you.

MR HUGO: Thank you very much Mr Chair. Mr Shabalala then I want to just ask you a question pertaining to your first appearance in the court in Umtata. Can you remember who accompanied you from Vlakplaas to Umtata when you had to appear in court for the first time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was Bra Mos.

MR HUGO: Was it only the two of you that came down or were there some other members from Vlakplaas who came down just to protect you as well?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No it was only the two of us.

MR HUGO: Now have you got any independent recollection as to who the investigating officer in Umtata was in your case?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not remember. I do not know them.

MR HUGO: And when you arrived in Umtata did you sleep over?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We returned back without having slept overnight.

MR HUGO: Then there is just one last aspect that I want to deal with and that was the reward that was paid to you, the R500. Was this the first time that you were paid an extra amount for an operation that you took part in?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was the first time.

MR HUGO: And was it also the last time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was the last time yes.

MR HUGO: Did you ask any questions as to why you are now getting an amount of R500 more?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not ask. I simply took the money.

MR HUGO: Were you aware of the policy that was introduced by the security police pertaining to compensation to askaris whenever they took part in operations where so-called terrorists were killed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know that there may have been monies that are deducted except the one that I ultimately got for the first time and the last.

CHAIRPERSON: You are just being asked at this stage of whether were you aware of any policy?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't know what you are referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you may want to repeat the question Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala you received this amount of R500 but was there to the best of your knowledge and recollection a general policy in terms where of askaris would be compensated? For instance if you are aware of it you would for instance know that if a terrorist is killed you get R500. If a AK47 is found you get R300. Or whatever the case might be. Were you aware of such a general policy?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I knew about that in relation to weapons.

MR HUGO: And in relation to the killing of people what was the general policy?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: If it was a person who was well-trained and arms were found from him even if he was not dead they would give you money besides or over and above your salary.