Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect to my learned friend, the witness has answered this question on numerous occasions.  What the witness said is after that gentleman - after he saw that gentleman firing on automatic fire, only after that did he realise that somebody else was not also firing.  He never said nobody was firing before that point in time.

MR STEPHENS: You see, the thing is everything that's written down here, I can only answer from what I saw.  They might have been shooting beforehand, I can't say that they were or they weren't, because I can only say - and that's what I've written in my statement here, is what I actually saw.  And whether I noticed a minute later or five seconds later that somebody else was also shooting, you must realise that assault rifle is quite a loud shot compared to a little 9mm or a handgun for whatever calibre it is, and it might have been drowning.  When he was shooting on automatic obviously it was drowning the other bullets out, I don't know, I can't say because they might not even have been shooting, I don't know.  But according to your witnesses they say that they were.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said in your statement that you wrote shortly after the event.  You talk about in paragraph - this is page 26 of Exhibit E, you say
"The IFP or Zulu marchers", paragraph 3, "were gathered at the top end of King George.  When they approached De Villiers Street coming down in King George, this ANC security guard then started firing on these marchers with his automatic rifle - think it was AK47, he was shooting on automatic."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Then paragraph 4
"When his magazine was finished he then re-loaded and then started shooting on single-fire.  Other ANC members with 9mm pistols or pistols then came out and also started firing on the crowd."

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Statement is very clear Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR BERGER: That the other ANC members with 9mm pistols only came out and started firing on the crowd at a time when the ANC guard was shooting on single-fire, it's clear.

MR STEPHENS: That's not the way it was because - well that's - I don't obviously express myself very well, because some of them had been there while he was firing, so...

MR BERGER: Well that wasn't your evidence at the inquest, it's not in your statement.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, where - just show me where in the inquest, because everytime I've gone through it I think I've sort of proved you wrong, so I'd like to know - because you keep making these statements and you're not upholding it.  You even twisting words inside here, and when I read it out to you again it doesn't come out the same way.

MR BERGER: Let me just read to you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger may I just intervene at this stage to find out now where are we getting with all this detailed cross-examination on minor differences between what he said here and what was said earlier, and so on.  How is the amnesty process advanced by this kind of evidence?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this witness says that there was a man with an AK47 who opened fire on a crowd for 15 to 20 seconds.  That evidence stands alone, there's no evidence to support that.

MR STEPHENS: So what you're saying the AK ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) (microphone not on) and we're not beginning a trial here, I want you to appreciate that please.  ...(inaudible).  We've got his evidence, we've got the record of the evidence at the inquest ...(inaudible).  There are differences between what he's saying now and what ...(inaudible) at the inquest.  You can make whatever point you wish to make, ...(inaudible).  I'm not going to stop you from continuing your questioning, but I'm just concerned that maybe ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: As the Committee pleases.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Berger, may I try to be on the same page probably with your cross-examination?  Has it not been one of the applicant's version that there was a man who leaned against a pillar from the position which is nearly the same as that alluded to by Mr Stephens, who fired an AK47?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But wasn't that one of the applicants Mr Berger?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Yes it was.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And it's Mr Beea if I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: No, no ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: I can't remember then the name of the applicant exactly.

MR BERGER: It's Mr Khumalo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Khumalo, that's right.  So I think probably we do understand where you want to get us to, but I think you must just try and reconcile that with the criteria that we have to use as a Committee.  If you could just curtail your cross-examination to that.

MR BERGER: I will.  Ms Khampepe, it's not in dispute that there was a man with an AK47 at the time, but you would have gathered from the evidence of the ANC guards, and in fact the evidence of policemen who were on the scene as well, that the ANC guards were all in a group on the corner of Plein and King George when the shooting began, which is - stands in stark contrast to the evidence of this witness.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No I'm sure we are fully aware of that by now, you've really traversed quite a lot to make that crystal clear, we now understand what your cross-examination is aiming at.

MR STEPHENS: I think what you're trying to say is - you know, the thing is, I saw a guard standing there with the policeman.  Now you're saying that the rest of the guards were all standing there with him.  Within 4/5 metres they might have been, because you've got two pillars here - when you standing with him, I meant - I took it that you're talking them actually standing around the guy with the AK47, which I did not notice at that stage, they were a good 2 or 3 metres away from him, towards the corner because - but I think we're splitting hairs here you know, it's very - it's a small thing this here.  Basically the guard did shoot, other ANC members also shot, and I think that's the basic evidence, I don't know whether the guys were 2 metres or 3 metres away, what difference that actually does make.  I've never said that they weren't there, they were there, and I've even said that they were shooting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think the problem Mr Stephens, we don't want to debate this, Mr Berger is a bit worried about what you stated quite earlier on when the issues were quite fresh in your mind, as he has referred us to page 26, particularly at paragraph 24, where you state quite clearly that ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Sorry is that 22 ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Page 26 of ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: 2526?

MR LAX: No, page 26.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, page 26, that's Exhibit E, the statement that was handed over by Mr Dorfling to us this morning, where you are now - you are stating that the guards came out only after the man with an AK47 had finished his magazine and had re-loaded and was now only firing single shots.  And we understand the ambit of - the thrust of your cross-examination Mr Berger, to that extent.

MR STEPHENS: No because I only then noticed the ANC members coming out and also started firing.  So only then that I noticed it.  You must realise when I wrote this, it was abbreviated, it wasn't an in-depth ...

MR LAX: Can I just clarify one thing.  It seems clear to me from what you've been saying that your attention was focused on the man who was shooting.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: You didn't - the other people that were in his vicinity weren't shooting as far as you can recall?

MR STEPHENS: Not that I noticed ja, it was like a blur because I basically, like I said in my statement before, I was basically watching the guy with the AK47 and the marchers diving behind cars, and it's only then afterwards that I noticed the other guys there shooting.