Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-09

MR LYSTER: 14/8 1991.  They said, "He's there.  He's alive.  He's in Transvaal", but even this police didn't give us all the information and the verification of how we could find him.  When Chris Hani died - after Chris Hani had died, one of our brothers of our family, Themba Zungu, and also our brother Yelef (?), they spoke to Mr Zuma - Jacob - and explained to him that we lost Mthandoyethu.  I think that since we haven't heard anything from Jacob Zuma it hasn't been established where he is and where he ended up.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Mthembu, was your brother, Ndo, was he ever known by any other name that you are aware of?

WITNESS:   There's a name I know, he used to have his ID, it was written Elliott Khuzwayo.  He was known by the name of Elliott Khuzwayo.

MR LYSTER: And do you know anything about that name?  Is that a strange name to you?

WITNESS:   It's a strange name.  I don't know that name.

MR LYSTER: And when your brother went away for those four periods, do you have any idea where he went?  Did he go out of the country, or did he go to the Transvaal, or do you have any idea where he went?

WITNESS:   I don't have the information of how far he went or how near, where he was, because after he left - after having been arrested by police he never said a thing.  He wouldn't talk.  I begged him, but he wouldn't talk.  He wouldn't say anything to us.  He never told me anything when I asked him and I knew - I could see he didn't want to talk about anything.

MR LYSTER: You said, "When he was arrested by the police".  Do you know when that was?  Was that in 1986?

WITNESS:   It was in 1987.  Around about July, August.  I can't remember the exact dates.  And then he disappeared for about two to

MR LYSTER: /three months

MR LYSTER: 14A/11 three months.

MR LYSTER: So are you just assuming that he was arrested by the police or did he actually tell you that he had been with the police?

WITNESS:   I have got full information, because when he left here - because when he came and he stayed with me publicly he used to - he was oozing blood on his left ear.  He always had cottonwool in his ears and I asked him what was happening with this oozing ear.  He used to say he'd been beaten up by the boers.  That's the only thing he ever said to me.  He never said anything to me that during that time he was arrested he was injured by the boers.

MR LYSTER: If you can just try to throw your mind back and give us some clarity in the dates.  In your statement here you said that in March 1987 he disappeared.  That was the last time that you saw him, whereas just now you said that he was detained in July 1987.  Is it possible that you were incorrect there?

WITNESS:   I think it is a mistake that the last time I saw him it was - the last time I saw him it was in 1988.  I remembered that because at that time we were extending the fore (?) room where I was living.  When he left he said his room, this room, he was going to buy furniture for himself - as he was leaving he was going to send me money.  I knew it was in 1988.  It was just a mistake in my statement when I said he left in 1987.  In 1987 that's the time he reappeared, after he disappeared for a long time in 1980 or since he had left in 1981.

MR LYSTER: And you also said in your statement that your elder brother, Yelef, had attempted to trace him through the ANC after the unbanning of the ANC and that Yelef had told you that he thought that he was somewhere in the Transvaal.

MR LYSTER: /Is that

MR LYSTER: 14A/13 Is that right?

WITNESS:   Even now, we're still hoping that he's alive, but at the same time our minds tell us that he might not be alive.  There's nothing that is heard about him, because all the exiles who had left this country during the organization's time, they all started coming back - all those who had disappeared.  We wanted to believe that, but we're beginning to lose hope that maybe he is no longer alive, but even that we've got no evidence for until we have been able to establish as to what happened, we don't know what happened.  We want to know what happened - what eventually happened to him.  How did he disappear, where did he go to.  If he's alive, we want to know what kind of life he's living, where he is, how he is living.  We need him.  We miss him.  We also realise that if he's alive he must be having a terrible life, thinking and missing us.  If he's dead we would want to know when did he die, who killed him, by who, when and how.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there people with questions?  Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I was requesting from you, my sister, if I can follow you properly, your brother, you say there was a time when he came back and he had something oozing from his ears and there was cottonwool in his ears, but before that he used to come and disappear, he would come and disappear.  He would come at night.  If you could speak.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, you say after you had seen this cottonwool with pus oozing from it he said, "I had been beaten by boers", when you asked him?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: /But what

MR NTSEBEZA: 14A/16 But what you recognised after that the whole thing of him coming at night ended and he stayed with you publicly, but after that he had lots of money?

WITNESS:   Yes, yes, there are times when he had money and he was driving a car, a Golf.

MR NTSEBEZA: That's the thing that really made you concerned and think that this person had been turned around - he was an askari.  So your wish is to know that whether if he was - even if he was an askari you would still want to know what happened to him?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mthembu, right at the very beginning of your statement, quite quickly, you talked about the disappearance of other members of your family.  I didn't quite follow that.  I wonder if you could help me.  You mentioned, I think, that one or two brothers, as well as a sister, disappeared earlier.  Could you please help me?

WITNESS:   Yes, our elder brother in the family - his name is Yelef Zungu - Cap is another name that he was called by in the organization - he disappeared in 1961.  After that my other brother who follows the ones after me - he is the second brother to disappear in our family.  It was in 1972.  After that Ndo disappeared.  That's the one I'm referring to.  That was in 1981.  Until my sister who disappeared in 1983.  All these other brothers and my sister we knew where they were when they had left.  Even now we know them.  The only person we didn't know what happened to him is Ndo.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  That's very helpful.  So they left and came back and it's only Ndo that is still missing?

WITNESS:   /Yes.

DR BORAINE: 14A/20 Yes.

DR BORAINE: I'm also a little confused.  You mentioned that when your brother, Yelef, tried to trace Ndo through the ANC after the exiles came back and Mr Mandela was released and so on, and that some information was given, but it wasn't very satisfactory.  But you also then said that your father - or I thought you said that your father went to the police and they said, "Oh, no, he is alive", and that he was in the Transvaal.  Did I get that wrong?