Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR PRIOR: Well when you filled - let me ask you this question, who filled out the forms that was brought to you by Leklapa Plathele and the other person?  If you look at the form, is that your handwriting or is it someone else's?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It's comrade Plathele's handwriting, I was present however.

MR PRIOR: Did you agree with the reply that he gave?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The answer he gave
"To kill the enemy and liberate AZANIA"
Is that what you're referring to?

MR PRIOR: No, more specifically that he Leklapa Plathele was in fact the person who gave the order to attack Heidelberg.  I beg your pardon, the question quite simply is, is that true or not?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The fact that he gave the orders - first of all I came to Cape Town given orders by comrade Sumiso, comrade Plathele knew about this that the soldiers that are going to be deployed however I directly got orders from comrade Sumiso.  When I was filling these forms in prison I filled them in the presence of Leklapa Plathele.

MR PRIOR: You see why I ask you that, in paragraph 5 of your submission this morning or the statement which you confirmed in your evidence under oath, paragraph 5 draws a very distinct distinction between the instructions given by Leklapa and those given by Nonuba.  Is that correct or is that not correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: This question is not clear to me Sir, won't you clear it up for me?

MR PRIOR: Well, do you have your submission in front of you, the statement that your legal representatives drafted on your behalf and which was read out?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No English translation.

MR PRIOR: You said at paragraph 5
"With regard to the first operation we had received our instructions for Leklapa"
And presumably you're referring to paragraph 4 and you're referring to Nyanga East and Lingelethu West, there you said:
"But the Cape Town operations including the Heidelberg Tavern operation"
I beg your pardon there's a correction, the first operation you referred to is one in the Eastern Cape in March '93, I beg your pardon.  But then you say:
"The Cape Town operation including Heidelberg Tavern, we received our instructions initially from Nonuba and subsequently from Gqomfa who was the commander of our unit"
Now that is not the same as the application form, is it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I want to clarify something.  Comrade Plathele as I know him is a Director of Operations in APLA or for APLA, whatever job - he would know of some jobs perhaps, not all of them as a Director of Operations.  I don't understand why he would not know about this specific operation.  I want it to be clear to you Sir, I mentioned these comrades because he was a director, his calibre and who he was within APLA.  I hope I've answered you.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can help me now and this may also confuse Mr Prior even more.  As I understand your application form for amnesty, you are asking for amnesty in respect of the attack on the army base, the police station, the Heidelberg Tavern and an attack on the Yellowood Hotel in Fort Beaufort that has not been mentioned at all here - is that so, was there some other event that you're asking amnesty for?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It is the Yellowood Hotel in the Eastern Cape that I took part in.

JUDGE WILSON: You did what in?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That I was involved in.

JUDGE WILSON: How were you involved?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: My role - I was there as the commander of the unit.

JUDGE WILSON: And what did the unit do?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: To attack oppressors, the oppressors that oppressed the oppressed.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you attack people and kill people there?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct Sir, however I don't know the number.

JUDGE WILSON: When was this?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was in 1993, around March - it is the date that I'm not clear of.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you intend to apply for amnesty for it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I would not have included it in the form if I was not intending to ask for amnesty for it, this is why I included it in the form.

JUDGE WILSON: Well have you given any details of it in before?  Have you said who ordered you to do it, on whose behalf you did it or anything else - that's what causes me great difficulty.  You counsel hasn't mentioned a word about it, you have said nothing about it and you haven't dealt with it as far as I can see in your form.  Do you intend ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Excuse me Mr Chairman, the reason why I did not put this into detail - it is difficult to consult with attorneys to tell us what to do and how.  I don't know the law, these are legal things.  I put forward an application, I was just grateful that the comrades came with these applications.  I could not give the full details - the attorney said that my first operation before the Eastern Cape incidents is the Eastern Cape incident ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: I think the witness made a mistake there.

JUDGE WILSON: Did Leklapa Plathele order you to commit this one, the Yellowood one?  Did he approve of it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I would put it that way, even though he did not give me a direct order or he did not say this to me directly.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that what he might have been writing about in paragraph 11(b)?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It could be so but I think that Plathele should elaborate on this point himself.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be of some assistance.  I seem to recall in discussions with the Amnesty Committee - and the Committee will obviously be aware that I have not been too long with the Committee or the Amnesty Department, is that the offences for which amnesty was applied for I believe is going to be dealt with on a regional basis, so I'm sure at this stage and I can't give the Committee any assurance that these applications are being broken up into regions where they were committed but that information can be confirmed Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: It is entirely undesirable that we should hear an amnesty application here and not know that the person we are listening to has made other applications relating to other offences which may be contradictory to what is being said here, then it surely should be drawn to the Committee's attention that there are other applications pending.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I agree with that, all I can say is that from my side I was simply briefed with the application which is before the Committee.  There is no other detail that we have and the only other detail we obtained was yesterday morning regarding the offences.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, can we also help to understand what's going on here, we are also under the impression that we're only dealing with one incident and that is hence the very cursory reference to other incidents in which the applicants were involved.  It's the first time that I hear and we've also had the benefit of sitting through Amy Biel and St James that we also have to deal almost in full and that the other matters also come before the Committee.  I think just help us understand for future reference maybe.