Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

<UNKNOWN>: What (...indistinct) say to you.

MS FALATI: Gogo told me that Mrs Mandela had a fight with the (...indistinct) the previous evening.  That was, he told me that (...indistinct) and I asked her the fight that was (...indistinct) between who and who.  Gogo told me that it was between Mrs Mandela and Dr Abu-Baker Asvat and I did not stay further to ask as to what was the fight all about (...indistinct) Dr Abu-Baker.

<UNKNOWN>: (...Indistinct).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Richardson had to do with the conversation, because this is what Gogo told you, what did Mr Richardson say to you?

MS FALATI: No, at, at a later stage Mr Richardson (...indistinct) a racist.

<UNKNOWN>: I beg ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct) recognised him.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any questions from the panel?

UNKNOWN: Ms Falati, you were living with Mrs Mandela in the few days preceding the death of Dr Asvat.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Pardon, Sir?

UNKNOWN: You were living at her home with Mrs Mandela ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: ... for the few days preceding the death of Dr Asvat.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: No, I was (...indistinct).  I was based in (...indistinct).

UNKNOWN: You were at the home of Mrs Mandela in those few days preceding the death of Dr Asvat?

MS FALATI: No.

UNKNOWN: Not at all?

MS FALATI: No, I was not at Mrs Mandela's place.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Ms Falati, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct) Khoza.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Chair.  I am not a lawyer, (...indistinct) two questions.  Mrs Xoliswa Falati, Ms, I am sorry, apologies.  Mr Xoliswa Falati, you said that the decision to say that (...indistinct) was an informer came from the caucus at the residence of the Ministers?

MS FALATI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Were you in charge of that caucus yourself?

MS FALATI: Yes.  I was (...indistinct) staying there, it was part of the caucus.  I was worried because (...indistinct) and all that.  So, (...indistinct) that is why I was worried about it (...indistinct).

KHOZA MGOJO: (...Indistinct) that stage very (...indistinct).  According to the record you were 35 years at that time?

MS FALATI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: And this young man was 18 years or 14 years?

MS FALATI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you ever ask him about this accusation?

MS FALATI: No, it was the caucus of the (...indistinct) after that we decided that he must not go, actually, he is (...indistinct).

KHOZA MGOJO: No, what I am asking, did you ever ask him if (...indistinct) a young man (...indistinct) 35 years and he is just 14 and you are a social worker, did you ever ask him if it was true or not?

MS FALATI: No, he was asked by the people.  I think (...indistinct).

KHOZA MGOJO: You say that you did not (...indistinct), because (...indistinct) you, our culture to protect (...indistinct).  Can you and what culture is that, our culture, what is that?

MS FALATI: The culture of the comrades, of (...indistinct) so that anybody who wants to come here is (...indistinct) before.

KHOZA MGOJO: Are you still (...indistinct) of that culture?

MS FALATI: That was the time of the struggle, Sir, not now.  We are liberated, we are all liberated now and we have been fighting for the equality, we are all equal here.

KHOZA MGOJO: Last question.  You said that you (...indistinct) about the (...indistinct) Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was having and you were talking about (...indistinct) handbag and you say that in the handbag there was a (...indistinct).  Did you see the (...indistinct)?

MS FALATI: Actually, (...indistinct) during the (...indistinct) or during those (...indistinct).

KHOZA MGOJO: So, you believe that there was a (...indistinct)?

MS FALATI: Yes, I believe there was a (...indistinct).  That is why I was worried (...indistinct) that I was (...indistinct) and I had (...indistinct) the victim (...indistinct)

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.  Ms Falati, it has been a long day for you, you have been (...indistinct).  I just want to take you through a few statements which I would like to get your full (...indistinct).  You have made serious allegations and I am sure you know that we are investigating human rights violations into the activities of the Mandela Football Club.  So, these allegations are very, very important.  On page 38 of your statement you say, that is paragraph number three.

MS FALATI: I do not have a statement.

UNKNOWN: It says ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can you let the witness have a statement, thank you.

UNKNOWN: I will (...indistinct), but the (...indistinct).  You say,
"I was worried, the next thing I heard that Lolo had disappeared and I asked around.  I heard different stories.  John Logan said he had been shot in the (...indistinct).  I am not (...indistinct).  I was worried and ask around more.  I was told that he was (...indistinct), because he wanted to go back to those (...indistinct)."
Okay, you have made this on, I just want to know whether is this what you know as the first or you put it down (...indistinct) based on what you heard from people (...indistinct).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct).

UNKNOWN: It is a (...indistinct) allegation, but you say it in your own words,
"I heard, I asked around, I heard this (...indistinct) ...",
but you have put it down. So, I wanted to know (...indistinct) human rights violation, but based on this statement it is difficult to understand, because of the many (...indistinct) that you say you were told about this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct) what ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Only the person (...indistinct).  She says I was told.  So, we want to know what is the truth about this. Can you take it as a human rights violation, it really occurred, because (...indistinct) talks about many versions.

MS FALATI: When you are saying (...indistinct), people are telling, people in (...indistinct) will tell you how people are (...indistinct) you have a way (...indistinct) to investigate if they are responsible, because (...indistinct) I realised and I, therefore, decided to take an action and see which direction to take, because one said the whole thing happened in the (...indistinct) and even today he said that it was that Lolo is a dog, must be (...indistinct) again. I asked why did he deny that and now you are agreeing.  This is why I think this Committee has a great task before exhume those bodies.

UNKNOWN: You say that (...indistinct) said that Winnie and (...indistinct) had ordered the killing of Lolo and (...indistinct) the second one, maybe it is not an allegation, but I am interested in knowing whether you know for sure that they ordered those killings on your (...indistinct) as you are saying?  Maybe while you are still thinking, I will go on ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct) give her a chance.  Can you try to answer the question?  Do you know, for a fact, that Winnie, Mrs Mandela and her daughter ordered the killing of these two persons?  (...Indistinct) made a long statement, (...indistinct).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: You (...indistinct).

UNKNOWN: Do you not, (...indistinct), you go on to say,
"My daughter told Kathleen Sachwell that while that she overhead Winnie saying that Stompie was dead, now she is (...indistinct)."
Again, this paragraph, tends to tell us what you know and what you heard somebody overheard.  I mean, that (...indistinct), this is very, very important for us to know what is the truth around these (...indistinct).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct) told, my daughter told that.