Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR BOOYENS: That is the Graaff Reinet incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything to do with the investigation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Chairperson, at that time I only assisted.  If I remember there was a Colonel Vosloo of SWD who was responsible for the investigation and I assisted him in tracing him for the arrest.

MR BOOYENS: Did  you arrest Mr Mthimkhulu?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not personally but I was part of a group who arrested him.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know if he was prosecuted successfully?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I do know is that - I think he was about 16 years old at the time, he was a youth and whether they used him as a witness or whether he was actually charged, I'm not sure what happened with the case.  I cannot remember, my memory is not what it used to be - I cannot recall this.

MR BOOYENS: In any case did he become more prominent later in Port Elizabeth?  This was your first encounter with him, what was his role later?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Chairperson, at that stage he was militant because of the Black consciousness ideology which he supported and he had the appearance of a militant person.  There was a series of riots and chaos at that stage which prevailed, it went right up to '78 and it was really a burning point in the Eastern Cape.

MR BOOYENS: Did Mr Mthimkhulu later become involved in COSAS, the Congress of South African Students?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot remember the exact dates - after, in October 1978, all the Black consciousness movements were unbanned.  In 1979 at Wilgerspruit, the organisations - the Congress of South African Students was established which took over the Black consciousness ideology under the influence of the SACP and the ANC ideology.  Most of the leadership figures and elements of which Mr Mthimkhulu was also a part, joined this organisation and reinitiated the move in Port Elizabeth.  At that stage One Two Zenzile was the National Executive President and he was elected as the president of COSAS.

MR BOOYENS: What role did Mr Mthimkhulu play in COSAS?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was part of the executive of the local branch of this Province.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have contact with him in the capacity as a security force person?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did he come across as a strong leadership person?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He did and my impression - with great ...[inaudible] Chairperson, my impression was that he was extremely militant because of the conflict between the Black ideology and the Whites really came to the fore.

MR BOOYENS: Did the situation in the Eastern Cape develop further? We have heard evidence already that the situation deteriorated - the security situation.  According to your investigation, did Mr Mthimkhulu play a role in this situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: What exactly was his role?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was involved in the school boycotts in 1980.

MR BOOYENS: Did he play a prominent role here?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Mr du Plessis was the branch commander or what was his position?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was the commander of the unit of the Black component of the security branch.

MR BOOYENS: We've heard his evidence that the situation in terms of school boycotts ultimately went from boycotts into violence, into the damaging of property and it escalated gradually.  Would you agree with that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I agree Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And that eventually this spread further into school organisations and COSAS and to other organisations who also became involved.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: After this while this situation deteriorated there was a campaign with the Republican Festival?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was Mr Mthimkhulu - during the campaign in May of 1981, was he arrested and detained in terms of the security legislation of the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If we can leave Mr Mthimkhulu for a moment and turn to Mr Topsi Madaka, ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Booyens before you leave that, where was Mr Mthimkhulu arrested in 1981?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, he was arrested at Mjoli Street.  That was is Kwazakele, a Black township in Port Elizabeth.

ADV SANDI: What were the circumstances of his arrest?  Had you gone out there to look for him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Lulama Bangani was in possession of ANC documents and he was arrested and he alleged that Mr Mthimkhulu, the late Mr Siphiwe Mthimkhulu, had been involved in the distribution of these ANC pamphlets.  If I remember correctly he said that both of them had obtained these documents from the ANC in Lesotho and that was the reason there had already been a whole series of arrests that had taken place.

ADV SANDI: I do not intend to interrupt your leading of your witness but right at that point, Mthimkhulu, is he distributing pamphlets - what is he doing?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't believe he was distributing the pamphlets himself, he was the contact to collect the pamphlets from the late Chris Hani which had been drafted by the ANC in Lesotho, they just received the pamphlets with the purpose of distributing them here internally in the country.

ADV SANDI: Okay carry on,  sorry for that.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You didn't arrest him then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR BOOYENS: Somebody else arrested him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: We're going to return to Topsi Madaka, can you give us some background?  Where does he fit into this story?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, according to the information which we had Topsi Madaka was involved in a covert underground structure ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: You can continue.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Which was a structure which was responsible to act as a courier between Lesotho and South Africa, also to recruit scholars for military training outside of South Africa, the accommodation of trained persons, the establishment of DLB's.

MR BOOYENS: Was he in the same cell as Mthimkhulu?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: If you were to place him in order of rank as far as that operation was concerned, where would you place him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mthimkhulu seems to have been the number one person, I would make him second in command.

MR BOOYENS: The information on Topsi Madaka, where did you get this information from?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That came from an extremely sensitive report, an informant who was affiliated to their cell.

MR BOOYENS: Why - was this considered to information coming from the informants?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why Madaka not detained in terms of the Security Act?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, because this informant was the only one and he placed in a very sensitive position in the network of Madaka and if we should have detained him, it would not have mattered what questions you would have put to Madaka he would have immediately through neutralisation have established the identity of this informant.  I can categorically state here today that that person would have been eliminated by the ANC or whoever.

MR BOOYENS: It was well known policy of the liberation movements at that time that informants should be dealt with in this way, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So you had information, not evidence that you could use?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: We know that Mr Mthimkhulu was detained in terms of the Security Act and he was released in '81.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.