Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: In the world just I think last week there was a Felicia Mabusa-Suttle and there were people who were said to be Afro-Americans which those people were dark skinned and their origin is from Africa but they are born in America but they are still told that they are Africans in America but it is fine in Africa, Europeans who are in Africa, they don't want to be told that they are Europeans in Africa, they want to tell us about depth, depth, it is not depth that makes you belong to the nation but it is the indigenity to that particular land and God's creation in Genesis, God created people and after creating people in Genesis it is said that he took water and he made boundaries and different nations were created.  Now if one decides to leave the land of his own creation and jump into another man's land then this is what I'm saying, it was against God's creation especially if one is enforcing himself upon the necks of the African people.  That is against God's creation and APLA was the defender's of God's creation.

MR PRIOR: Is that the answer you're giving to my question?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Exactly.

MR PRIOR: The question of the motor vehicle that was destroyed, may I just enquire I seems to recall that Advocate Gcabashe yesterday questioned Mr Xundu, put a question that there was some confusion where the vehicle was burned out on the Tuesday or on the same day of the attack.  May I just enquire from the Committee?

MR LAX: It was on the Tuesday, Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, there was some confusion in my mind.
There was no discussion with Mr Xundu that the vehicle had to be returned to Butterworth to the owner?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Whom?

MR PRIOR: Please Mr Ntintili, the question is simple, you discussed with Mr Xundu or was their any discussion with Xundu that the vehicle should be returned to Butterworth to it's owner?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Did you ask for the first time that I saw that he when he came with it and asking the assistance from me, so definitely there was no discussion.

MR PRIOR: And at some stage you were thinking you could, that your organisation should retain the vehicle because it was in good condition?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja that was my consent when you were asking me to assist them to take it for destruction somewhere.

MR PRIOR: Did you indicate to Mr Xundu that maybe the organisation APLA could retain the vehicle and that's when he said that it was the most vehicle and it needed to be destroyed?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Actually, I was not talking about APLA I was talking about, I'm a member of the PAC and he was a member of the PAC so I was talking along the lines of being members of the PAC having a problem in transport and such things.  Why can't we retain and such things then he told me that what I've said already.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Ntintili just lastly - the extent of your participation, you've said quite a lot here this morning but you only gave basically accommodation, is that right and then you assisted to the destroy the vehicle but that was after the attack, well after the attack?  That is the extent of your participation?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: That is true.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
ADV. GCABASHE: In fact the only point I want to clarify is the one on accommodation.  You gave accommodation or you arranged for accommodation - so did they live with you or you simply arranged for them to live elsewhere?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja I arranged for them to live somewhere and there were someone living with me.
ADV. GCABASHE: And in the time that those who lived with you - let me rephrase this - who of the applicants lived with you - which of the applicants lived with you if any?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja is was Vito.
ADV. GCABASHE: And in the time that Vito lived with you, you had no discussion at all about the target, about the Golf Club?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: You know in PAC, in PAC general, because especially during the time of the banishment, what you are told by one member is only for you and that member.  We used to form things like cells and if I recruit - if I'm recruited by this one then I recruit another one, I don't tell him who is that one that I've recruited but what you only do was circulate the literature.  He gives me the literature because he is the person who recruited me.  Now, it is along those lines that - I had that principle - I was used to that and I wouldn't ask someone from another department. The only department I used to go over is because I've got links with it, is passive, which is ...[inaudible] student of the PAC, it is only that one that I would discuss with Thembelani not any other person because only Thembelani was a student whom I schooled.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you, no further questions.

MR LAX: Just one question, Chairperson, when did you hear the news of the attack, you said you heard it on the news you heard people talking about it, when exactly?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the news.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon he heard it on the T.V.

CHAIRPERSON: He saw it later, he heard it in the shebeen.

MR LAX: That's correct when was that?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: That was on Sunday, I think it was on Sunday.

MR LAX: That was the day after the attack?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja I think so.

MR LAX: And they came to dispose of the vehicle on the Tuesday.  You got your assistance on a Tuesday?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja I cannot be sure of the day I mean it's about six years ago and I've got a lot in my mind.

MR LAX: Ja, we've accepted on the Tuesday, Mr Xundu says it was on the Tuesday, no ones arguing that it was on a Tuesday.  You don't have to fight with me, just listen to the question.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not fighting, he's qualifying as he's entitled to do ...[inaudible].  I merely saying I did not think he was fighting with the questioner, he was saying he accepts Tuesday but can't remember himself.

MR LAX: That's fine - so I'm trying to explain, it's not in dispute that it was on the Tuesday, you're perfectly entitled to qualify it.  The question really in that context then is, did you not put two and two together, you had operatives, you had arranged accommodation for operatives, did you not put two and two together to say that those operatives had been involved in this operation that it happened?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: When?

MR LAX: On the Saturday night that you heard about on the Sunday?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: No.

MR LAX: Well who did you think carried out the King William's Town Golf Attack?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: When?

MR LAX: Before the Tuesday, who did you think had carried out that attack?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja because I knew from the approach of APLA that is outside, that they have already - I already said when I was starting to talk here that there was a clarion call by John Simbalambo and therefore I knew that there's a lot of APLA that has been infiltrated in the border and I wouldn't know  who were responsible for that and it was not my duty to ask them.

MR LAX: So you didn't draw any conclusions from the fact that you'd arranged accommodation for operatives, you knew that they were going to carry out some operation, on an operations happens but you didn't put two and two together?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: You know I didn't have time for that because already I think I was writing an exam, Thembelani was just after writing exams and I was writing my own exams at Fort Hare and the role that I played was not something special or something that I was afraid of so I didn't have any fear of anything therefore, I didn't have any compulsions and all such things about these things, it was just one of those things normally, I didn't have anything special about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well when did you become aware of the fact that they had carried out the attack?