Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In regard to him interrogation or torture - because the people who used to go to him as the Ascaris and Mamome, that's all.  As whether how he was fetched there to - taken to the office and as whether in which office he was taken where he was tortured up to the point where he was forced to be an informer of our office, I don't know that.

MR STANDER: Did you ever hear at any stage that he'd cried out due to personal assaults on him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not know.  When I wanted to go to his place - one day I wanted to go to his place, he chased me away and said: "Boyzi, don't come to my place anymore because people from your office have assaulted me and people would say that I'm an informer", that's why I stopped going to his place.

MR STANDER: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

MR STANDER: At this stage I may, after instruction, want to put one or two questions but as far as this is concerned, I'm finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else ...[inaudible]

MR BRINK: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: As people may have been waiting here since a quarter to 2, I propose to take a very short adjournment now and we may go on for a little after 4.  We will take an adjournment of a few minutes now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman with your permission, I neglected to put questions about a victim in the person of Mr Molifi, I just want to put a few questions concerning him.
	Mr Motsamai, do you know Mr Molifi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STANDER: This is Serame Shadrack Molifi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: This is item 12 on my list.  Tell me is it correct that he was being constantly observed by the security police?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean that is item 12?

MR STANDER: It's not one of the items referred to in the application.

ADV DE JAGER: It's not in those documents, it's on his list - another item 12 not on the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not an item really, it's a list of names and this is the 12th name of the list.

ADV MEMANI: But there is a Molifi in the list which he's got, this is the one we were told we should correct from, F(e) to F(i).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is on page 141, I think that's what the witness is referring to, number 21 on page 141 - it's in fact the same person I think.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is number 21 on the list.

MR STANDER: Is it true that this person also was constantly - kept under constant observation by the security police?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: That he'd been arrested numerous times and assaulted?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Due to his political activities?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, he was a member of the PAC and APLA and task force.

MR STANDER: I also understand that his movements were constantly monitored by people, including yourself?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: To such an extent that at one stage he was unable to lead a private life?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, would you allow me before commencing, to ask whether it is possible for some clarification in regard Mr Motsamai's application as it appears at page 148 of bundle A in paragraph 13, where he refers to the fact that he says he was also involved in the assault and torture of detained and/or arrested political - I suppose it must be - activists.  And then he refers to the 5th floor, Fountain Street, Bloemfontein.
	Mr Chairman, you will recall that Mr Ngo applied for two incidents - similar incidents.  The one referred to took place in Bloemfontein and the other one took place in Botshabelo.  If I may say Mr Chairman, our understanding from what we have heard from Mr Stander, appears to be that the people that he represents are the people who were arrested by the South African defence force while they attempted to cross the border of Lesotho and that would appear to us or seem to us to coincide with a group that Mr Ngo refers to as the group that was assaulted and tortured at Bloemfontein.  
	My question is this Mr Chairman, can Mr Memani tell this Committee whether his paragraph 13 also coincides with that group that Mr Ngo referred to and that my learned friend Mr Stander referred to, because you see Mr Chairman that clarification will be of great assistance to us in our consultations tonight.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understood that paragraph 13 was to cover all the assaults and tortures, including that group and all the other persons he has mentioned.  Is that not so Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: It's obviously so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All the individuals he has mentioned or the two or three on some occasions and that one group that came from the Lesotho border, is that so?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Sir.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, we will then accept it that way and later when the time arrives, we will put to Mr Motsamai that he has not applied for amnesty for these people but that is not what where we will commence.

MR VISSER: Mr Memani - Mr
Motsamai, I heard you say during the course of your evidence when Justice Ngoepe asked you a question, you said you don't want to lie, do you remember that you said you don't want to lie?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I'm not here to lie.

MR VISSER: Are you a person that takes pride in the fact that you don't tell lies? Can I ask you that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, I don't tell lies I'm here for the truth.

MR VISSER: You signed your original application for Mr Motsamai, on the 8th of November 1996, that is last year - do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Will you agree with me if I put it you that in that application dated the 8th of November, you applied for one incident for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't agree with you.

MR VISSER: Thereafter we heard of further documents that became available, one of which was handed up as Exhibit P28.  That was a handwritten document by you consisting of three handwritten pages, can you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I remember that, those are the things which were related to my application for amnesty.

MR VISSER: Thereafter we heard of another three pages which went missing in Cape Town, of which we received two pages, do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.  I was informed by the Truth Commission Staff that they were not able to retrieve other pages because there was no proper filing system in Cape Town.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, is it correct that you were then allowed by this Committee to fill out a new application for amnesty and that you signed it on the 5th of June of this year?
	That's page 145 of bundle A, Mr Chairman.  I'm sorry, did you answer so far?  Did he say: "yes", Mr Chairman?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean that new page that is 145, do you mean it's a new page?

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, is it correct that you were allowed to complete a fresh form for application for amnesty by this Committee and that you completed such a form as it is now in bundle A, page 143 to page 145?

ADV MEMANI: Isn't that you signature on ...[intervention]

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This page, it seems as if it is a page which went with the first application forms - this one.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, the question is simply this - do you agree that you filled out and signed a new application form on the 5th of June 1997?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.