Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Well, Mr Chair, firstly it is relevant on the grounds that the applicant needs to take into confidence the Commission because of the facts in this incident. I won't take this aspect any further if he doesn't want to answer to that.  It's fine.
	I just want to come back to the first meeting that you had with General van Rensburg.  Let me ask you this before we begin with that.  Are you satisfied that you have given all the relevant information to this Honourable Commission?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, to the best of my memory.

UNKNOWN: All the details and particulars as far as you can remember?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now I want to know from you - the meeting that you had with General van Rensburg where it was decided to kill Goniwe.  Was it decided between you and Mr van Rensburg.  Was it decided how he was going to be killed?  I want to know the logistical particulars.

MR J VAN ZYL: It was at the final meeting when we came back from Colonel Snyman and the question arose of how the operation was going to be set into place.  I specifically asked if it was going to be an operation like the previous one as in the Pebco 3, where the person were burnt out in totality and General van Rensburg told me that it was not to be so.  And it had to look like a vigilante type attack or like an Azapo attack..

UNKNOWN: Can I just stop you there at that point.  You now knew the actions of the activists and the struggles between the different organisations in the Eastern Cape.
	If you refer to vigilante attacks, which form did these vigilante attacks take, according to the best of your knowledge?

MR J VAN ZYL: We attended many of these scenes where the attacks took place.  It was usually sharp objects, like a knife or an axe, or a hatchet, where people had multiple wounds from these weapons and bodies were burnt out, or half burnt.

UNKNOWN: Did Mr van Rensburg, during this discussion, refer to vigilante, or did he speak in particular of hacking and stabbing wounds?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't remember if he mentioned it specifically, it is possible.

UNKNOWN: Which preparations did you make for this operation so that it looked like a vigilante operation?

MR J VAN ZYL: As I have said, I asked the other members to bring along a knife and on the day of the incident, I took two containers with petrol along.

UNKNOWN: I want you to think about the question and explain to me the totality of the logistical preparations you made for this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, where are we going?

UNKNOWN: As I understand it, Mr van Zyl's memory is - there is one problem Mr Chair, there are several aspects (I say several but it's two or three) that there is no concurrence between Mr de Kock's testimony and Mr van Zyl's memory.
	I wish to show that this witness does not take the Commission into his confidence and is not placing the full facts before the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this entail going through his whole testimony?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, if you want me to give you a version and then ask the witness to react on that, either that or having to go through his whole testimony discussing all the details.
	Mr Chair, can I just ask a few more questions and if you feel it is relevant or not, please stop me.
	The operation that was to be brought about - was the idea that you alone would kill these people?

MR J VAN ZYL: The directive was not put to me as such.
	I thought that I would do it by myslef.

UNKNOWN: That you would do it alone?

MR J VAN ZYL: Do the eventual killing myself.  The physical act, yes.

UNKNOWN: Now why do you ask of the other persons to also bring knives.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, they were part of the operation and this was preventory measures.  I don't know why I did it at that stage.
	When I drove away with the first person, I planned to kill all of them.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember to the best of your memory what role did you have for the black members of the group?

MR J VAN ZYL: I did not know what could go wrong, I didn't know how the operation was going to go exactly.

UNKNOWN: These members, you never told them before the incident what was to happen and what was the objective of it?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was a later decision on my part.

UNKNOWN: May I ask you where did the black group wait for you?

MR J VAN ZYL: This was in a black township in New Brighton.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, there's a chart that's been placed before you.  Can you ask that this be marked as an exhibit...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, before we continue with this chart, isn't it common case that they met each other in a particular place and that they did stab the deceased.  What does it matter where they waited for him?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, the point that I wish to reach is there's a discrepancy in Mr van Zyl's witness in respect of what he said about the shot that went through the roof and this is the point that I wish to concern myself with.
	Can you just look at this map, Mr van Zyl?  Where were the black group on this map?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, I have said previously I don't remember where the rendezvous point was.  We had several places where we rendezvoused and if we went out together in other incidences, it's been a long time since I've been in this area.  I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: Your testimony is that you went with four persons from Olifantshoek - can you just show on the map from which direction you arrived?

MR J VAN ZYL: From the Northern side.

UNKNOWN: Then you turned left?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

UNKNOWN: And then you left these persons in the presence of Mr Taylor and yourself and Mr Lotz went across the road to point "B"?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: What time is this approximately?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, this is round about 11, just after 11 in the evening we intercepted them.  And then we went back to the bushy area and we must have been there about 1200 or 1230 in the morning.  The burning of the vehicle would have taken longer than 20 minutes, that should have been, must have been just after 1, I wasn't watching the time.

UNKNOWN: The dark stripe that is shown there, is that a tarred road?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

UNKNOWN: How busy is this road?

MR J VAN ZYL: It's a quiet road in the evening, but there is traffic on that road from time to time.

UNKNOWN: To the best of your knowledge?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I assume so.  It was known as a quiet area.

UNKNOWN: Then Mr Chair, there's another document in front of you which I would like to submit as another exhibit.  It is photos that were used during the death inquest.  I think this would be exhibit "O".  I am not sure, Mr Chair.
	Mr van Zyl, I just want you to look at the album.  Photo number 9.  Do you have this in front of you?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Do you agree that this is a photo of the car that was burnt.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The vehicle that belonged to Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: I accept this, yes.

UNKNOWN: You have burnt the vehicle, you poured petrol over it and now you moved back, if I can refer you to exhibit "M", the chart, would you like to indicate where you are moving now.  In which direction were you moving?

MR J VAN ZYL: Back in the direction of "C", where the persons were waiting.  Taylor was waiting with the activists.

UNKNOWN: And all four of the activists are standing there?  The point I wish to reach that they were sitting in a car, in Taylor's car.  All four of them still cuffed?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's right.

UNKNOWN: And you decide to take the first one and kill him.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: How did you decide which one of these activists would you take first?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I did not give preference to any of them.

UNKNOWN: You opened the door and took the first person that was closest to you.  Is this correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember if I took the first one closest to me.  I cannot remember specifically how I took him.