Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know.  I put an application telling this Committee the truth of what I took part in.  Whether they - it was because of the grudge or what, that would depend on the Committee on their discretion to make a ruling or judgement in those incidents because nobody gave me any instructions to do some of those things.  I just said somebody is threatening my girlfriend and because I was a police, I was supposed to do something to eliminate so that she should stop to continue harassing my girlfriend.  Whom should I point - whom should I shift that responsibility to because nobody gave me an instruction to do that thing?

CHAIRPERSON: The point you make is, nobody gave you instructions so you didn't say they did.  You said nobody gave you instructions so you didn't point to anybody here, it was something you did yourself.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: What's Sandra's other name?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Mathabathe, Sandra Mathabathe.

CHAIRPERSON: The person whom you referred to in your original application for amnesty which is bundle C(a), page 13, where you say
"It was one of the houses you petrol-bombed on the instructions of Captain Loots"
Can you explain that Mr Ngo?  You have just told us you received no instructions and you couldn't point to anybody but in your original - if you will look at bundle C, you know that you applied for amnesty and you said: 
"We petrol- bombed all these houses on the instructions of Captain Loots"

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I explained to the Committee that - how I petrol-bombed this house, so I would not change that.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application which was typed out which is before you if you want to look at it, you said you were given instructions to petrol-bomb this house by Captain Loots.  You have just told us that that is not true, can you explain why you made this original statement?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, on my reading of A13, the - no, there is a reference to Mathabathe there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's quite clear.  You have no answer Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I have an answer Sir.  I was making a list of the houses I petrol-bombed - if you look carefully, you will see that it is written.  I was explaining what was happening, which houses I petrol-bombed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And you explained that you did so on the instructions of Captain Loots.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It appears like that but I explained later in the application that what did I do those things and the instructions from Captain Loots which he has given were meant for three people, the houses of three people.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't, you said the all - you put the four houses ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I agree with the Chairperson when he says to me, in the application I spoke that all the instructions I received from Captain Loots but I explained that the house of Sandra Mathabathe, I did that on my own because she was threatening my girlfriend.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: So, what appears on page 13 is a mistake?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, about Sandra Mathabathe, yes.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Are you saying yes, it's a mistake?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, on the name of Sandra Mathabathe.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Why don't you have the courage to admit a mistake where there is a mistake?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, it is a mistake which I did to include Sandra Mathabathe on that list.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You should have said so when my brother asked you questions.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Okay.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Why do you lack the courage to admit mistakes where you made mistakes?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was explaining only that it was a mistake to include that house.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You come with ...[inaudible] answers instead of simply admit - saying: "I have made a mistake".

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo, if you turn to page 44, the second paragraph, you will see that you say there
"The other two members of MYO who had their houses burnt because of their political activities were Rebecca Mothokoane and Sandra Mathabathe"
	Now that also conflicts with your evidence now that the house was bombed because of the fact that you bore a grudge, isn't it?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it conflicts with he next page of his application, it's not the same sort of change at all, he immediately in the application set out the motive for that, doesn't he?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, it conflicts with the second page or the next page, page 45 as well Mr Chairman, it directly conflicts with that as well.
	Can you explain that to us Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't understand how you say they were conflicting and which paragraph you're talking about.

MR DU PLESSIS: On page 44 you say that you burnt the house because of the political activities of Sandra Mathabathe and on page 45 you say that you bore a grudge against her which resulted in you throwing the house with four petrol bombs.  Now which one is true, was it because of her political activities or because of the grudge?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's a mistake I made to include her on that list, I explained that as the Chairperson was explaining that I was - I must accept that I made a mistake.  Other three houses we received instructions but Sandra Mathabathe's house, I petrol-bombed together with Duiker because she was threatening my girlfriend.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Mr ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: How did you convince your two - the other two members who were accompanied you to through the petrol bomb at Sandra's house, what did you tell them?  From where did you get instructions?  Why were they prepared to accompany you in throwing bombs at Sandra's house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I took them as my escort and they knew that I was going to petrol-bomb that house because she was threatening my girlfriend, then I went there and I petrol-bombed the house and they didn't take part in the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: But they accompanied you knowing that you're going to bomb the house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I told them that I have a grudge against her and they knew that I was going to petrol-bomb the house but I didn't show them directly that - for them to see that I petrol-bombed that - a particular house but they were an escort.

ADV DE JAGER: Who were they?

CHAIRPERSON: Members of the riot unit.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Duiker and Nkune.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now you see Mr Ngo, on page 13 of bundle C ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which page Sir?

MR DU PLESSIS: Page 13 in bundle C, you include this incident as an incident - page 13 - you see you say at paragraph B - paragraph A
"Within a period of three weeks, Sergeant Bokaba, Constable Selahla and I while working as a team in Mamelodi, petrol-bombed the houses in the following sections"
And then you include Sandra Mathabathe in that list but here on page 45 of bundle B, you don't say that Bokaba and Selahla accompanied you.  Now which one is wrong?  Which version is wrong?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The mistake is one, is that I included Sandra Mathabathe's name among the names of the list which I received instructions.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right, but you see the mistake goes further, the last paragraph on page 13, you say the following"
"I confirm that the above-mentioned include all operations of illegal nature that I had been involved in.  I respectfully submit that none of these acts were done of my own accord or to my own advantage.  All acts were committed in the time of my duty and on instructions of members of the security branch who held higher ranks me and whose instructions I was bound to obey"
	So, must we accept that that was also a mistake, to have included Sandra Mathabathe in that list and the last paragraph is therefore not correct?