Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And also it is usual that informers come from the very ranks of the people that they inform on.  Whether he was an ANC member or not, is it all that relevant, it doesn't necessarily mean he is not an informer, does it?

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you trying to get at by this line of questioning Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: What I am trying to get at Mr Chair, is the fact that the applicant states that he was an informer, and after consulting with the victims, I am told that during the time when he was killed, he was very much active in supporting the ANC and also in helping with the voters.
	I just wanted to ascertain from him whether he knew about this fact.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is no harm in asking him whether he knows or doesn't know about that fact.
	Do you know about that Mr Mlaba?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: This is the first time that I hear about that.   I used to travel the Xemba are extensively as Chief Mlaba's bodyguard.
	If somebody was active or doing something, I would have known about that.  I don't think what they are saying, is correct.

MS THABETE: Mr Chair, if I can comment about what my learned colleague has said about the IU report.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS THABETE: The IU report firstly states what the applicant says in his application and then talks about some of the witnesses that gave evidence in court.
	I am not sure where my learned friend gets the evidence that there were some witnesses who said that they deceased was an informer, if he can correct me please.

MR WILLS: I will quote from a witness, a paragraph in the report, which I will hand up as an Exhibit, and I quote statement marked 10, was made by Sizwe Christopher Zuma who is a Commander of the Transit in Bodyguards of Provincial Protection Unit for VIP and stationed at Pietermaritzburg provincial offices, in which he stated that he knew Nhlamvu Mkhize because he was a policy spy, who on the other day tried in vain to have them witnesses and other ANC members being killed by Security Forces, after Nhlamvu had lured them into secluded places and disappeared without notice.
	Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MS THABETE: Thank you, I am indebted.  Regarding the killing of Sbusiso Mlaba, are you applying for the murder of Sbusiso Mlaba?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, I do seek amnesty for the death of Sbusiso Mlaba because he was killed by Fila who thought that he was fleeing to contact the police.
	On their arrival they would have been harsh on us.

MS THABETE: I just want to make sure that I have heard you correctly.  You are saying you are applying for his murder because you thought that he was going to go and inform the police about what you had done?  Is that correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I seek amnesty for the death of Sbusiso Mlaba, who was killed by my colleague because of the reasons that I have stated before, that he would go and inform the police.
	I seek amnesty for the death of Sbusiso.

MS THABETE: Did you try and speak to Sbusiso Mlaba and tried to tell him what was happening, why you were killing Nhlamvu Mkhize and of course the fact that he mustn't go and report to the police?  Did you try to talk to him?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: There was no time.

MS THABETE: Can you briefly tell us or tell the Committee members what was political about the murder of Sbusiso Mlaba?  What was the political objective?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: It was what was the situation, what we thought of what he would do after the incident, that he would go to the police to report, who would in turn actually trouble us.
	That is why Fila decided that he should not be allowed to flee and attacked him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your uncle not there, Lungisani?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He had left.  He left even before Nhlamvu was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am just trying to recollect what you are saying about the political objective of killing Sbusiso Mlaba.
	Can I have a moment to consult something please?

MR LAX: Perhaps I can help you, his evidence so far is this that the decision to kill this person was taken by Filo, because Filo thought that this guy was escaping out of the window and would be likely to tell the police about them, and about their activities.
	He says now that he aligns himself with that decision, that is his evidence so far.

MS THABETE: If I may get clarification, is he saying they both decided?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he is saying that Filo acted in doing it, and then afterwards he spoke to Filo and said, why did you kill Mlaba and Filo said I killed him because if he got away, he probably would have gone and told the police and then the applicant says that he then agreed with what Fila had done in killing him.

MS THABETE: Two more questions.  How well did you know Sbusiso Mlaba before this incident?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: As I mentioned before, this was the first time that I saw him.

MS THABETE: So it would be correct to say that you were not even aware that he was an ANC member as well?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I did not know of that, I hear about that for the first time.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mlaba, during the trial Filo told a different version as what you are telling us today, is that so?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know why?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, because he came to me at the Pietermaritzburg prison and he explained why he had changed his story in court.

MR SIBANYONI: What did he say?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He told me that the Murder and Robbery Unit at Pietermaritzburg, had actually bought him off so that I would be actually convicted and he would be acquitted.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you agree that during the trial he said, he denied that he ever killed Sbusiso Mlaba, that in fact it is you who called him and asked him to kneel before you and you killed him, is that so?  Is that what he said?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.  Yes, he was being used, he was used by the Prosecutor and the police, so that he would be acquitted and indeed, this is what happened.

MR SIBANYONI: During the trial, he was thoroughly cross-examined and at the end the Judge made some remarks to the effect that he was satisfied with the evidence of Filo and rejected your version.  Did you hear the Judge saying that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, the Judge should have said this because I was the target.

MR SIBANYONI: If we understand you correctly, at the time according to you, at the time when Filo was shooting Mlaba, you didn't know what he was doing, why he was doing that and you only became aware after you asked him and he explained to you and that is when you aligned yourself with his decision, is that correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Please repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: Let me paraphrase my question, at the time Fila shot at Sbusiso Mlaba, you didn't know why he was doing that, is that so?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I mentioned before why he killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question please Mr Mlaba.  Just repeat it again Mr Sibanyoni.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  At the time Filo shot at Sbusiso Mlaba, did you know why he was doing that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: As a trained person, I did think that as he was shooting this person, he must be trying to prevent something.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions?