Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chair.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Motsamai, you will find in front of you three sets of papers.  There is a bundle A, bundle B and a bundle C. Those are the papers of my attorney which have now been placed before you and to which we will refer.  Yesterday, if I could remind you, you told this Committee that you went to Pretoria, because you thought that a lawyer was being arranged for you by Erasmus for your amnesty application.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is what I thought.

MR VISSER: And you told, you told the Committee also that you saw no reason why you had to tell either Erasmus or Mamome or anyone else that you had applied for amnesty.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: When we adjourned, Mr Motsamai, I referred you to bundle B, page 29.  Will you please turn to that page?  Have you got it in front of you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I have got that.

MR VISSER: You told the Committee yesterday that when arriving in Pretoria you first had a general discussion, all of you, with Mr Wagenaar and thereafter he spoke to each of you individually.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And when he spoke to you personally and individually - Mr Motsamai, do you have a problem?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not have a problem.

MR VISSER: When he spoke to you personally did he ask you to tell him the truth?  In other words, if you knew something about any of the persons that were outside the room, you were invited to tell him.  Did that happen?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not correct.

MR VISSER: All right.  Did he then ask you what you, what your version is in regard to the amnesty application of Mr Ngo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He never asked me for an observation of my side, about Mr Ngo's amnesty application.

MR VISSER: Who told him what is stated in your affidavit from page 29 to 31?  Who told him those facts?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He looked through Ngo's amnesty application.  I told him what was contained in here so that I could leave that office.  I wanted to leave that office altogether, because I could see there was something happening there.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, why did you not tell Mr Wagenaar that you had applied for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not want to tell him because of the following reasons.  I was amongst people I knew what kind of people they were.

MR VISSER: And what kind of people were they, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They did not explain to you and I think they will never explain to you.  They are people who are very cruel.  They would never tell you what kind of people they are.  I worked with them, I know what kind of people they are.

MR VISSER: Let us not mince words, let us not, - Mr Motsamai, with all due respect to you, I find it terribly disturbing if you keep on moving around and knocking the mike around, please.  Let us not mince words, Mr Motsamai.  Did you think they would kill you if you told Mr Wagenaar that you had applied for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would never tell him, because I left that place knowing the first time that they, he was, what kind of person he was.  I would not tell him.

MR VISSER: Did you think, did you think that the persons, your colleagues, that were there with you would kill you if they knew that you told Mr Wagenaar that you had applied for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And since the end of March, when we first came to Bloemfontein, everybody knew that you had applied for amnesty.  Is that not correct, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They knew.

MR VISSER: And has anybody threatened or attempted to kill you, any of those people?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, please listen to me, you take this very lightly. I say these people have got deep feelings even though they did not threaten me, timeously my life was in danger.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, you were invited by Mr Wagenaar in privacy in his office where the two of you were alone to tell him what you wanted to tell him.  I put it to you.  Do you agree with that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I told him what he asked from me and he wanted us to deny all that thing, all of us who were there.  Even though I tried to explain to him that, Sir, as it is stated there, I wanted everybody to come and account before the TRC.  Then he did not agree with me.  That brings some sort of feelings to me.  I can be in danger at any time.

MR VISSER: Are you suggesting, are you suggesting that you were in danger from something that Mr Wagenaar might do to you?  Is that what you are suggesting?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Mr Wagenaar is Mr Wagenaar.  People I was with had independent minds.  He would not know what they were thinking and even up to date he does not know what they are thinking.

MR VISSER: I will repeat the question.  Are you suggesting that Mr Wagenaar would do something to you if you told him the truth?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I cannot tell what decision he would come to.

MR VISSER: I am asking you what you thought, Mr Motsamai. Why did you not tell him that you applied for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know how many times must I repeat this.  I did not tell him that I made an application for amnesty after hearing his words and the decision that he wanted us to take, that we must do all these things together.

MR VISSER: All right.  I am putting it to you, Mr Motsamai, that you knew very well why you were going to Pretoria and that it was as a result of a notification which you received from the TRC because you were implicated in the application for amnesty of Mr Ngo and there was no other reason and you knew it.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is not as you state.  Those are your own words, not mine.

MR VISSER: And your evidence was that you went to Pretoria, because you were tricked by Mr Erasmus and Mr Mamome.  Is that not correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They did trick me.  Even all those people did, they were tricked.  I have the evidence, if they could come here as adults and speak the truth, they were tricked.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, I promise you, they will all come and give evidence and all of them will deny what you are telling this Committee.  All the ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, they have come together as a clique, they are a conspiracy now.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you are the only one that is telling the truth?  And you are the only one that is telling the truth, they are all lying?  Is that so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am telling the truth.

MR VISSER: Well, let us look at what you said in your affidavit, paragraph two.  You said that during the week of the 10th to the 14th of April 1997 you received a notification in terms of Section 19(4) of the TRC from the TRC in which you were notified that you are implied in the amnesty application of Mr Ngo - you see that at the top of the page, Mr Chairman - of Mr Ngo.  That was the truth.  Is that ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Not translated.

MR VISSER: I do not hear anything.

INTERPRETER: He was asking which page and which paragraph, but you have already repeated it.  I was just putting it to him as stated by you, Sir.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: What is your question on that paragraph?

MR VISSER: That paragraph is the truth, is it not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That paragraph tells the truth.

MR VISSER: In paragraph three you stated that you studied the application of Mr Ngo, personally, and you deny the allegations in so far as you are implicated therein.  Did you say that in your affidavit?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, please, listen to me, pay attention.