Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

CHAIRPERSON: The question was about the PAC and APLA policy and an example was given that yesterday we heard the same thing from an ordinary commander.  But the questions about the fact that the PAC and APLA are democratic organisations whose cadres are entitled to and do discuss policy.

MS COLLETT: Whilst I hear what you are saying Mr Chairman, my question is this: Is the question that is being asked of my client, whether or not he was given an opportunity before every mission was carried out to discuss whether it was a good idea, a bad idea, put forward alternative objectives, because if that is the question then it should be framed in that manner.

CHAIRPERSON: You know perfectly well this question arises from my question as to why he didn't enquire about the ceasefire, why he didn't ask of the PAC, why he didn't make some enquiry.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, with respect, I think he has answered saying he didn't think he had to and he didn't do it, that's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He said he wasn't entitled to do it, he didn't say ...[inaudible] and it is that we want to know about.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, whilst I understand that you're asking, that the Committee is entitled to ask a question like that, there's a lot of confusion that is obviously reigning because it's being compared to what somebody had said in testimony yesterday and which we don't have before us.
	I would ask that the questions be limited and specific so that he can understand what he's being asked.

ADV SANDI: That has been contrasted with not only what had been said yesterday but a submission by PAC and the leadership of APLA to the Truth Commission, which was some time last year.  I think that is the contrast Mr Lax is trying to make there.

MS COLLETT: Whilst I hear what you're saying Mr Chairperson, I would ask that we don't have a copy of that before us so we can't specifically comment on what was said or whether it was even true for that matter.  He is here and he is giving his side of the version and when he was asked to comment on that he said: "Well that didn't happen as he was concerned".

MR LAX: I'll rephrase the question in its most simplest form again.
	You have conceded that APLA was a democratic organisation, correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, the PAC is a democratic organisation.

MR LAX: Are you now saying that APLA was not a democratic organisation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It may be but its democracy may not be equal to that of the PAC because in an army there are things you cannot do, we/you yourself.

MR LAX: Of course there are things you can't do.  In society there are things you can't do, that doesn't change democracy.  The question is that APLA policy was under discussion.  You were expected to carry out and know APLA policy.  When you went on your mission your leaders were not with you, correct?  Only your individual units went out on those missions.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: So you were expected to understand the policy so that you could not make mistakes when you went and carried out your missions, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: And accordingly, to know such policy within a democratic framework either of APLA or the PAC, you would be expected to have discussed them.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR LAX: In order for you to know such policies and in order for you to understand such policies and in order for you to be able to apply such policies, you can't that without discussion, isn't that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: I'll leave it at that.

MS GCABASHE: Again just to understand ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just one second, sorry.  Mrs Collett please, I noticed you passing notes to the witness, he's under oath and he's giving evidence, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop doing that.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, the nature of these notes, which I can pass to you as well, are to remind the witness that he is entitled to refer to evidence that was led in his trial, which evidence is not yet before the Committee.

MS GCABASHE: I'm still trying to resolve APLA, PAC, those distinctions you are drawing in my own mind.  I'd like to think I'm halfway there, just help me finish thinking this through.
	You are saying the PAC as an organisation was a democratic organisation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS GCABASHE: But once you were a member of APLA it was a military formation and within that military formation you did not discuss the orders you were given, you simply did as you were told?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS GCABASHE: Now, the only think that I'd like you to help me with if you can is, was there any opportunity at all to revert to your PAC status, I understand the military, and at that level discuss issues that concerned your organisation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we did have such opportunity.

MS GCABASHE: You personally, were you able to make use of those opportunities to understand the PAC as an organisation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I used that opportunity to take whatever I was told about the PAC.  Whatever that I did not know, I then was accepting what I was told as new and accept it.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, I would like to refer to a quotation or I'd like to quote what Brigadier D Mofokeng said at the submissions of the military hierarchy of the APLA at the Truth Commission during October of last year, the 7th of October.  A copy of that submission was handed to Advocate Corlett this morning.  I refer to page 25 of the transcript.  Please listen carefully.  
	Brigadier at that stage was explaining how the discipline worked within APLA and in the second to last paragraph he said the following, in fact he referred to certain rights which APLA cadres had and he said:
"These could be grouped into three categories: the right to equal treatment, the right of individual APLA members to have open and fair participation in the process of decision making that effected their lives and wellbeing, the right to express opinions to information, to attend meetings, make contributions and be greatly involved in the political life of the organisations"
Do you understand what I've read out to you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I heard that.

ADV PRIOR: Was Brigadier Mofokeng correct in that submission in what he says?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I would not know whether he was saying the truth.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  I want to just move on to your comment or your evidence when you said that:  at some stage school children were targeted by your group coming out of Butterworth, that was the Jimmy Jones group.   Is that correct, that there was discussion about attacking either kombis or buses of school children and killing them?  Was that part of the strategy, was that one of the aspects of your strategy in East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot understand the question properly, can you please repeat it?

ADV PRIOR: Alright, let me put it this way: the question of killing school children, white school children, was that discussed by your group, that is the Jimmy Jones group in Butterworth?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We could not discuss it because at the time we had not been instructed to kill those school kids.

ADV PRIOR: So when did you reach the stage that that instruction was given, and who gave that instruction, and was that instruction or that command, was that discussed among your unit?  Sorry, I know there's three questions but couldn't you deal with them in that order?  When did that instruction come to kill school children on buses?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know which I should answer because it's three question, can you ask one question at a time please?