Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you also mentioned in your evidence that the one other person whom you recall being armed with an R4 rifle and that shot at people sitting inside the Tavern, was Jantjie.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you sure that he didn't perhaps enter the Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He was right next to me, he did not enter.  I don't know about the others, but I know he was right next to me.

NORMAN ARENDSE: There were also other members of your unit involved in the attack.  Both of the applicants sitting here with you today Madasi and Mabala, they were not armed with R4 rifles, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Mabala dit not have an R4 rifle.  It is Madasi who had an R4 rifle.  He had a rifle grenade.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.  The only other person that had an R4 rifle, would have been Sibeko, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, you said in your evidence in chief that you can obviously not say what he did and whether in fact he carried out his instructions.  Do you remember saying that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it possible that he could have entered the Tavern with his R4 rifle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is possible.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Then just one other aspect, the order which you received to target the Tavern and to carry out the operation, who did you get that from directly?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I got the instruction directly from Sichumiso.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it possible that Xuma was aware of this order and was aware of this instruction?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: He says it is possible?  He doesn't know whether it was so or not, is that it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: The witness said he definitely knew about it, it was not a possibility.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NORMAN ARENDSE: .

JUDGE WILSON: There is one point I would like to hear.  Who supplied you with ammunition?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: From Mr Mabusela and Mr Dala.

JUDGE WILSON: And how much ammunition were you given?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was four R4 rifle and two AK47's and two hand grenades.  I am not sure about the bullets, there were enough bullets however, to carry out the mission.

JUDGE WILSON: One R4 rifle, did you say?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, four R4 rifles.

JUDGE WILSON: Oh, four R4's, and two AK47's?  And how was the ammunition supplied, in magazines or what?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: They had magazines.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know how many you were given?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Each R4 had two magazines, except for the AK which had one magazine.

JUDGE WILSON: And how many cartridges go into a magazine?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: 30.

JUDGE WILSON: 30 or 13?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: 30.

JUDGE WILSON: And the R4's?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: 35.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  I am asking this because it appears that 94 shots were fired, of which 48 were fired from outside the Tavern and 46 from inside the Tavern.  You heard that evidence being given, didn't you at your trial?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I heard that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Arendse, can we commence earlier tomorrow morning?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am sure we can Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will now adjourn and resume at 09h30 tomorrow morning.
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