Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR SANDI: What offence was this, Mr Patel, when he suggested or when he became part of the decision that defence units should be set up?  What kind of crime was this?

MR PATEL: Well, I would imagine that it's illegal to set up self-defence units at the time and even today I would imagine.  But perhaps I should ask the applicant to explain to the Committee what steps he took in order to set up self-defence units.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you better be careful about that.  You may be inviting answers that you don't want.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you require time to consult your client about let the request stand.  If you're not certain what answers you're going to get you rather play it safe.

MR PATEL: I do know what answers I'm going to get.  As it pleases.  Mr Mndebele, on return from your visit to Mr Chris Hani, the late Mr Chris Hani, with a view to setting up self-defence units, what action, if any, did you and/or your co-members of the special committee take in order to set up self-defence units?

JOHN MNDEBELE: When we came back we got together and we agreed that there was a need for a self-defence unit.  We took steps such as calling other youths and informed them to start the self-defence units.  More especially Jabi Mkhwanazi, our chief.  Thank you.

MR PATEL: Did you, in informing the youths in setting up self-defence units, tell them how to go about it?  That is the setting up of the self-defence units.

JOHN MNDEBELE: I can say we were always in a meeting situation to discuss things after which one of us would go to the youths and tell them to form the SDUs.  We knew that they had to arm themselves illegally, but that was the situation at the time.

MR PATEL: Yes.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I don't suppose you have any questions, do you?

MR BLACK: If this evidence is confined solely to background, I don't want to really get into merits, but I just want to clarify one paragraph.  Mr Mndebele, could you page to page thirteen (13) please.  I refer you to paragraph sixteen (16) in particular there.  As far as Mjonzele Gushu was concerned, was he, from what I gather there, placed in control to recruit people to carry out the instructions or to further the aims of the African National Congress?  When it's referred to, "instructed in general to bring the situation under control", was that carrying out the aims and objectives of the community and the African National Congress?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Would you please repeat the question?

MR BLACK: I refer you to paragraph sixteen (16), with the sentence which reads, "Gushu was also instructed in general to bring the situation under control.  That sentence.  Is it meant that his actions or whatever steps he took in recruiting people to carry out actions or to bring the situation under control was for the purposes of obtaining stability in the community or to further the aims and objectives of the African National Congress and members in the community?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The aim was to bring stability to the community and also to attain the objectives of the organisation to protect the organisation and the community.

MR BLACK: By referring to the organisation you mean the African National Congress?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Now, there's also reference in some of the statements made to a Mr Chris Ngwenya.  Did he play a prominent leadership role in the Black Cats organisation?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, he was a prominent leader.  He was working hand in hand with Jwi at the time.

MR BLACK: When you refer to Jwi you're talking about Mr Zwane?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Did you know of a person by the name of Obed Nhlabathi and whether or not he was involved in the Black Cats?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, he was highly involved.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I understand that the witness is an applicant and should any further questioning arise out of the merits of any of the applications which I am making, then I'll ask leave to recall him.  But I understand at this stage it's more of a general background.

CHAIRPERSON: What would that entail?

MR BLACK: Beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What would that entail that some sudden aspect may emerge that you would like to recall him?

MR BLACK: I just understand that he is available and I don't know how these matters proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we'll cross that bridge if and when we get to it.

MR BLACK: I just clarify one other issue.  From your evidence I understand, do you as the committee and the members of the ANC accept responsibility for the actions which were carried out by the applicant Gushu and people whom he was authorised to recruit?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, we were accepting that because the intention was to bring stability.

MR BLACK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp, have you got any questions?

MR KEMP: As the Committee pleases.  Mr Mndebele, in paragraph twelve (12) of your general background you make a statement that
"It was clear that the South African Police were protecting and assisting the Black Cats in the reign of terror and that no reliance could be placed on their intervention."
Is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Would you please repeat your question.

MR KEMP: In short, in your background you stated that the Black Cats were given support by the South African Police in the Black Cats reign of terror in this area, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.  You are saying the police were assisted by the Black Cats?

CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't trust the police to intervene and stop the Black Cats from doing what they were doing?  Is that your question, Mr Kemp?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR KEMP: Now, in support of this allegation, you referred to the submissions placed before the Goldstone Commission, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR KEMP: Are you aware of the finding of Mr Justice Goldstone in respect of those submissions?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No.

MR KEMP: Then I would just like to point out very briefly to you what Mr Justice Goldstone reported on the first (1st) of June 1993 in respect of these allegations, and I will be very brief, Mr Chairman.  In the first instance, I refer to paragraph 44.6 of Mr Justice Goldstone's report in which he stated the following.  He stated that
"The only evidence of SAP complicity in the criminal activities of the Black Cats was that of the three informers of the Weekly Mail."
Now, I hasten to add, Mr Mndebele, that at least one of those informers are one of the applicants in this application.  I'm not exactly sure whom yet because he testified under a pseudonym Mr A, but that will become clearer at a later stage.  Mr Justice Goldstone continued to say that:
"They contradicted themselves and each other.  They were quite unreliable.  On the other hand, evidence adduced by the SAP satisfied the committee that these allegations were devoid of substance, in particular that there was no justification for the allegation that the Black Cats received intensive backing from white police officers."
Can you comment on that?

MR SANDI: Ja, Mr Kemp.  Sorry, Mr Kemp.  If I may interrupt here for a moment.  I think one would have to be careful how he goes about putting that particular portion of the Goldstone report to the witness because, as I go through this report, it seems that Judge Goldstone had quite a number of unpleasant things to say about the police in the same report, the same report you're referring to.