Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) Gipsman separately from all of them.  Is it just that you've forgotten about these other people, or person or persons?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is possible, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see you made this affidavit on the 5th of May 1997, was your memory fresher then?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I had already started with my memory problem at that stage.

MR LAX: Thanks.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct) may I just have this clarified.
	Mr Radebe, I asked you whether the whole cell had been destroyed and your answer was yes, how big was this cell, how many people were in this cell?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was that person whom I delivered at the highway and then the other person who requested to be taken to Transkei to fetch firearms.  I did not include him because I did not remember about that correctly.  There was another person we were supposed to take him to Transkei to fetch arms there.  I don't know what happened to him.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct) of the cell, as far as you knew?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: They were not staying at Ms Kubheka's house, they would visit.  We would call it a KwaMashu cell.  So they would visit Kubheka's house, so they were not staying there.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct) staying at Ms Kubheka's house.  I just wanted to know, you said the cell had been wiped out and I just wanted to know how many members there were in the cell, as far as you knew.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I remember the one we delivered at KwaMashu and Jimmy informed me about the other one who we were supposed to transport to Transkei to fetch arms there.  I did not see that one.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I ask one last question in order just, while it's fresh in our memory, to try and sort this out?
	Were you ever told during the time that four MK people who were going to infiltrate or who had already infiltrated to Natal, were the ones that the Security Branch were looking for?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: We know of Gipsman, now Gipsman, was he one of those four or was he somebody else?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether he was one of them, but we took him to Winkelspruit and I did not see him again.

MR VISSER: At page 1720 of the record it was put on behalf of Mr Mbane that you in fact also arrested a person called Sbu, S-b-u - it's two-thirds down the page, Chairperson.  Now do you remember a person by the name of Sbu?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If he was one of the group, then we might have two now, Gipsman and Sbu and a third person was the one who wanted to fetch weapons from the Transkei, is that correct?  Or was it one of the same as Sbu or Gipsman, that wanted to fetch weapons from the Transkei?

MR SAMUEL: If I may interpose just to bring some clarity, the person we were referring to, Sbu, was the person that was going to pick up the arms from the Transkei.

MR VISSER: Alright, well thank you for that.  So we know of two people then, it might be Gipsman and it was definitely Sbu.  For whatever that may help to clarify, that's the best I can do, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I don't think we need too much detail on this, we're not going to be making findings on who was arrested or whatever.

MR VISSER: Can we go on after lunch, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that it is now after 1 o'clock.  Mr Thabethe, would it be possible during the lunch break, to make sure that the dress is available.  Is it here?  Thank you.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Visser, do you have any further questions arising?

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson.  I've found the references which I wanted to refer to before the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, it works as follows.  Hentie Botha gave evidence to say that he received information from Jimmy Mbane that Ms Kubheka had shown him weapons at her house.  Now that you fill find at page 1660 of the record, at the top, which says
"And she also showed weaponry to one or more of the group, and this was weaponry that she stored on behalf of the terrorists."
Why I asked Mr Radebe this question, Chairperson, was that Mr Radebe appears to deny that that was so, and I'll give you that reference.  It's at - well the pages aren't number, it's in Exhibit G, and you will find it just above paragraph 17, the last sentence of paragraph 16.
CHAIRPERSON
"I have no memory of her showing us any weapons."

MR VISSER: I want to ask him whether this means that he's in conflict with the evidence which Botha gave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please go ahead.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	"Hentie Botha het getuig, Mr Radebe, dat hy gehoor het ..."  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, do you mind asking in English, because of the difficulties they have with the three-way translation.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Sorry, I'll do that.
	Mr Radebe, Mr Hentie Botha testified that he was told that Ms Kubheka had shown one or more of your group weapons which ...(end of side B of tape)

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And is that what you are referring to him your statement in paragraph 16?  Is that what you say you have no knowledge of?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now is it possible that it could have happened without you knowing about that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is possible, Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'm sorry, there was just one more aspect, Chairperson.
	I want to put to you that the person that you refer to as Gipsman was in fact an informer of Mr Botha, can you deny that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not dispute that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And as quite correctly pointed out by Mr Samuel, Sbu was the person who wanted you to take him to go to Swaziland to fetch weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Transkei.

MR VISSER: The Transkei, to fetch weapons.  I beg your pardon.  Would that accord with what you remember?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not dispute that Chairperson, because Gipsman, I did not know his real name.  Even now I still know him as Gipsman.  I don't want to commit myself.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other part of Mr Visser's question, would you deny that Sbu was the person who wanted you to take him to Transkei to fetch weapons?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I would not deny that because they did not tell me anything.

MR VISSER: ...(indistinct) Chairperson, just for the sake of your information, the unchallenged evidence of Botha about Gipsman, is at 1701.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 1701.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any other questions arising out of questions put by the Panel?  Thank you.
	I see before us laid out on the floor, a dress.  Mr Radebe, is that the dress, or do you know whether that is the dress that was shown to you yesterday?  The one that we referred to when you were being asked questions?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, that's the colour of the dress I saw yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for record, we have a dress laid out in front of us that is a dark maroon colour and it has a pattern on it, it looks like roses in a type of a beige colour, at the bottom of the dress or midway down the dress and a little bit at the top of the dress.  It's a short-sleeved dress.  Perhaps I should get a female to describe it because I'm not so good at describing dresses.  What else do you need?  Short sleeves.  It's got a high colour.  I don't know if it has a label on it or not, I can't see from here and I would like to hazard a guess as to what the size of it is, because I don't know how the sizes go.