Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me answer that question in this way.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I ...[inaudible] received the ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: We're waiting for the complete answer Sir.

HENDRIK BOKABA: During the time of unrest, some of the houses were burnt because of political reasons.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to make the point that on page 45 of bundle A, Mr Ngo himself has said that he burnt a house because of a personal grudge and that application was withdrawn, so the statement made by my learned friend should be qualified for instance by an incident where his own client was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said mainly, didn't he?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Sir.  Ordinarily, petrol bombs were used in the course of political conflict, isn't it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Petrol-bombs were used in the township.

ADV MEMANI: But Captain, why do you seem to have difficulty with dealing with what you understand to be the essence of the creation, that these petrol bombs were used in political - in the political context.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't dispute that, I explained.  I explained to you that petrol bombs were used to burn houses in the township generally in the township.  That's how I answered your question.

ADV MEMANI: But what I'm putting to you is that ordinarily petrol bombs were used in the course of political conflict.

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is so, at times they were burnt because of personal grudges.

ADV MEMANI: Now, which incidents do you know of where houses were petrol-bombed because of personal grudges?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Should I explain specific houses and the owners of those houses?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Then I don't know those houses which were burnt because of personal grudges.

ADV MEMANI: And you only know about the one which Ngo refers to in his applications, in his application?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know even that, that's how explained that incident.

ADV MEMANI: Now, where houses were petrol bombed, security branch would have had an interest in the circumstances leading to the arson, wouldn't it?

HENDRIK BOKABA: May you please explain your question Sir?  Put your question clearly Sir.

ADV MEMANI: What is it that you don't understand about the question?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I'm asking you to repeat the question.

ADV MEMANI: The question is simple.  Where petrol bombs were used in the course of arson, security branch would have an interest in the matter?

HENDRIK BOKABA: What kind of interest are you talking about?

ADV MEMANI: But Captain, you are a Captain you know ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What he's trying to avoid is the suggestion that by "interest", you mean they may have participated in the petrol-bombing.  What you in fact mean - as I understand it, you mean they would have had an interest in investigating the matter.

ADV MEMANI: That is the obvious interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could perhaps make that  clear to him because your client's version is that the security police did all the bombing.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.   Where houses were petrol-bombed, security branch would have an interest in the matter in the sense that they would have cause to investigate the matter?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, they would investigate but let me explain it this way.  There was a special task team which was stationed in Mamelodi police station.  That special task team was working directly to investigate those kinds of incidents.  Security branch was not part and parcel of the investigative team, those are the people who would
investigate the dockets.

ADV MEMANI: Now, we know ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in charge of this team or who were the members of this team?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't remember well but let me say this, Director Fikter who is the station commander of Garangu police station, was a member of that special investigative team.

ADV MEMANI: Now, before you brought in the qualification, you conceded that special branch, rather security branch would have an interest in investigating the matter.  In what sense would security branch investigate the matter?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me explain it this way Sir, to gather information - if we were able to gather that information that so and so was involved, then we'll pass that information to the special investigative team.

ADV MEMANI: Now, it is obvious that the special investigative team would carry out the investigation insofar as the prosecution is concerned and that security branch would carry out the investigation insofar as the gathering of information relating to security matters is concerned.  Do you dispute that?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, the security branch would gather the information - not to investigate the case and to carry the docket.  They would gather the information and then pass it over to the relevant people or structure, then those people would do the arrest, then they will take those people to court.

ADV MEMANI: And on the other hand, security branch would also detain people on strength of the suspicion that they were involved in incidents like petrol-bombing houses?

HENDRIK BOKABA: To detain people because of taking part in the petrol-bombing was not part and parcel of the security branch, they would only take that information to that task team which I mentioned.  There were a state of emergency where members of the security branch detained people because of the information they were able to gather.

ADV MEMANI: Such as that persons were associated with certain political organisations and could possibly have been responsible for the petrol-bombing of certain houses and other properties?

HENDRIK BOKABA: They would do that because of the information at their disposal.

ADV MEMANI: Now, why do you dissociate yourself from security branch because you were a member of the security branch, why do you say "we arrested them on the strength of such information if we had such information"?   Why do you use the third person?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me explain it this way ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I don't understand that question at all.  You're saying to him - he said: "we arrested them on the strength of such investigation", are you suggesting that is the third person when you say "we"?

ADV MEMANI: No, I'm saying that he keeps saying that they would arrest people when they got such information and I'm saying why doesn't he say, we arrested people ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, why doesn't he say ...[inaudible]?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because as I understand it, he's told us they didn't arrest people, they passed any information they had onto the special unit or to other investigative units.  They didn't do that, they didn't investigate the case and they didn't carry the docket which would mean as I understand it, they didn't effect the arrests.

ADV MEMANI: That was a while ago Sir, later on he said that security branch did arrest people and they would arrest people on the strength of such information, they would detain them under the security branch and this is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: When there was a state of emergency they would detain people.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, and my question to him is that he was a member of the security branch and why does he dissociate himself from these activities? Why doesn't he say, we arrested people or detained people on the strength of such information because he was also a member of
the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Were your duties - did your duties include arresting people, detaining people?  I'm talking about you now personally.

HENDRIK BOKABA: During the state of emergency yes,  I was one of those people who were detaining people.

CHAIRPERSON: And otherwise, when people had committed crimes when it was not during the state of emergency?

HENDRIK BOKABA: It was the work of the special investigative team during the other incidents.