Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MR HATTINGH: I accept that but just as a background, he makes mention of stabbing.  When he testifies he is confronted with this conflicting part of evidence between his oral evidence and his statement.  He then explains it but at the same time his legal representative makes mention of another statement in which the applicant tells us that there were stabbings and shootings and then thirdly he tells us that if there were stabbings then that was done by Obed and all I wanted him to do, the applicant, is to clarify the issue, tell us when they went there did Obed take a knife with him.  What was there plan, what did they plan to do - was this applicant going to shoot Obed, was there any discussions with regard ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What gives rise to your suspicion there was a knife.  There's no stab wounds on the body.  Why should you be able to ask questions on stabbing when there's no factual basis for this?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, the problem that I'm experiencing is that we are dealing with a lot of evidence, a lot of versions, a lot of information and we're now picking out bits and pieces which would support the applicant in his application for amnesty and I think we should have regard to the bits and pieces which tend to indicate that this applicant is not telling the truth and we should cross-examine him on those bits and pieces which are substantial, which show that this applicant is not making full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khaba, do you know of any stab wounds that were inflicted on the body of Obed, before or during or after the murder?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Chairperson, what happened at the hospital happened within a short space of time because the hospital is quite close to the town or it's within the city and when I had taken out the gun I just shot Obed and whatever happened thereafter I cannot testify to.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you know how the issue of stabbing was printed in your statement?  Not the one you wrote, the one that was typed.  Have you any idea?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When I shot Obed or when Obed was shot for the first time at Extension, he was stabbed - I think that's when I mentioned the stabbing.

CHAIRPERSON: When he was killed, when you shot him, when you killed him?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When he was shot at Extension before he got killed.

CHAIRPERSON: When he was at the hospital.  When you and Livingstone went to the hospital?  That's what I'm talking about.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No I have no knowledge of any stabbing with regard to the incident at the hospital.  Even if it did happen I may never have witnessed it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, I want to put it to you that you went to the hospital for the sole purpose of killing Obed because of revenge not because of a political motive, because to revenge the death of your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I would like to clarify you, Mr Hattingh.  When I was told that my mother had been killed, nobody said it's Obed who killed my mother.  It's the Black Cats who killed my mother and now I don't know whether you're trying to tell me that Obed killed my mother, I'm hearing it for the very first time and if it was a revenge killing, I was going to kill each and every single member of the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: Are you aware of the fact that someone was in fact charged with the murder of your mother and convicted?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes I'm aware of that.

MR HATTINGH: That was Mtuduzi Mtauw, is that correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes that is so.

MR HATTINGH: Well I just put it to you that both Obed Nhlabathi and Mtuduzi Mtauw were charged with the murder of your mother and they were awaiting trial but on bail at the time when you killed Obed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether Obed was being charged of the killing of your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That I only became aware of when I was appearing in court with regard to this very same matter that I'm serving sentence that I'm serving sentence for.  I got the information from the police at that stage.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, would you really want us to believe that you at no stage during those six weeks between the death of your mother and the death of Obed make any investigations whatsoever to try to find out who was responsible for the killing of your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I realised that it wasn't going to serve any purpose because even if I did get or I was told as to who killed my mother that was not going to bring my mother back.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I must draw your attention to the fact that I'm pretty close to invoking Section 34.2 of the Act.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you for the warning, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to go briefly through your supplementary statement and just clarify certain issues.  On page 48, paragraph 3, you say that
"I personally testified before the Goldstone Commission and I provided the Commission with all the details which were within my personal knowledge relating to the political turmoil, the murders and attacks carried out by the Black Cats" and so forth.
There's only one question in this regard - at the time when you made this disclosure to the Goldstone Commission did you also tell the Commission about the atrocities of the ANC people?

MR BLACK: Is this relevant, Mr Chairman?  Honestly.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's that getting us, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, we have a supplementary statement which deals with the background to this applicant's application.  Now he makes the allegation, if we consider this part not to be relevant then it should not have been part of the application on the supplementary statement but once it is made part of the supplementary statement and it's application then I would, with respect, submit that I'm at least entitled to just ask questions about these supplementary statements.

CHAIRPERSON: But he didn't talk about the ANC's atrocities as you call it.  It's not part of his statement.

MR HATTINGH: It's for that very reason that I'm asking him why he left out any atrocities of the party that he belonged to at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: You presumed that the ANC here committed atrocities?

MR HATTINGH: They already attested to that effect and all the applicants made in fact submissions and they make application for atrocities.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, Mr Hattingh has already ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm busy talking, I'll give you an opportunity now.   Where was I - yes, the atrocities that we're discussing now - do you expect him to have mentioned it to the Goldstone Commission - is it so surprising that he didn't?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, in the end I would very well argue that it is surprising that he elected to tell the truth and make disclosure very - only to - with regard to certain people and not give a full clear picture and tell the full and whole truth.

CHAIRPERSON: I might remind you that presently a lot of high profile people are guilty of the same thing.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'm not representing them at this moment, all I can say is that although that may be the case it does not allow this applicant to hide behind the fact that high profile people may very well be in the same position.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to allow the question but I'm going to be wary of it and I'm going to curtail you.
	Mr Black, what did you want to say?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I think it was indicated earlier by Mr Hattingh that he holds no brief for the IFP or Inkatha or anybody, he doesn't represent anyone.  I just can't see the relevance of this form of questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: See where it gets us to.