Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

ADV TEE: Mr Chairman, I have an extra copy available, but both of the copies that I have, are unsigned.  I don't know if they ever have been signed before Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you through Mr Tee?

ADV TEE: Mr Chairman, I have three more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

ADV TEE: Mr Nkuna, when you were first arrested, you were taken to a police station at Hazyview, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: And at that police station, you saw two people who had come to get you released, who were they?

CONRAD NKUNA: It was my brother Joe Nkuna and Pat Mashiani who was working with him in the office.

ADV TEE: Does that mean that at that time your brother was back as a full time member of the African National Congress?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: In terms of the difference between the African National Congress and MK, does the political aspect of the ANC control MK or is MK separate?

CONRAD NKUNA: According to my knowledge, they were two different things.  One was operating independently from the other.

ADV TEE: And according to your knowledge the South African Communist Party, did that in any way have any control over MK or the African National Congress?

CONRAD NKUNA: I think it was independent as well, operating independently from these others.

ADV TEE: On the night of this incident of the attack on Mr Shabangu's house, how did you get to his house?

CONRAD NKUNA: We walked to his house.

ADV TEE: How many were you when you walked to his house?

CONRAD NKUNA: We were three of us.

ADV TEE: The attack took place in November of 1992, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: At that stage, was your brother Joseph Nkuna in a position to be able to run?

CONRAD NKUNA: Not in a position to run, he was experiencing problems in walking.

ADV TEE: Did your brother go with you to the house of Mr Shabangu on the night of the attack?

CONRAD NKUNA: No.

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

ADV PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nkuna, ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.  The speaker's microphone is not on.  No, it is not on, I can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Patel.

ADV PATEL: Hopefully this time the interpreters will hear me.  Can you hear me?

INTERPRETER: Yes, I can hear you, thank you.

ADV PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nkuna, earlier you said that your brother Joe could not walk to the house, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: I did not say that.  What I said is that he had difficulties even walking.

ADV PATEL: At any stage, did he come to Mr Shabangu's house before the attack?

CONRAD NKUNA: Before I used to go quite often.

ADV PATEL: On the day of the attack, did Joe come to Mr Shabangu's house?

CONRAD NKUNA: No.

ADV PATEL: After the attack, did Joe come to Mr Shabangu's house?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, at night when he got the telephone call, the message that there was an attack, then he went.  He was fetched, still.

ADV PATEL: Who fetched him?

CONRAD NKUNA: It was Dr Mamwepe.

ADV PATEL: Let's turn to the moments or the day before the attack.  On that day, did you go to Mr Shabangu's house?

CONRAD NKUNA: No, I did not go.

ADV PATEL: Do you know a Mr Derrick Manjisi?  Do you know a Mr Derrick Manjisi?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, I do know him.

ADV PATEL: Who is he?

CONRAD NKUNA: I know him as a person who used to be a soldier of MK and coming from exile.

ADV PATEL: On the day before the attack, did Derrick Manjisi and three others, including yourself, go to Mr Shabangu's house, armed?

CONRAD NKUNA: No, we never did that.

ADV PATEL: I want to now turn to your application form which you've completed.  Do you recall that you have completed an application for amnesty on the 24th of April 1996?

CONRAD NKUNA: I do remember.

ADV PATEL: And this application form is a sworn statement under oath before a Commissioner of Oaths, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV PATEL: And you acknowledge that the contents thereof were true and correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: I will say so.  I will say so as I have filled the application form and also acknowledge that that is the truth.

ADV PATEL: Now, against whom was the attack directed on the night of 9 November 1992?

CONRAD NKUNA: Mr Johannes Mandla Shabangu.

ADV PATEL: Was the attack only against Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV PATEL: On page 9, well I have the numbered page, are your pages numbered as well?  On page 9 you say the attack was directed against our opponent who at that stage was single and living alone.  Was that Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV PATEL: Why was Mr Shabangu regarded ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am sorry Mr Patel, are you on page 9 because I can't find what you are referring the applicant to.  My page 9 doesn't have what you've just put to the witness.

ADV PATEL: Page 8 is the first page of the form and that is the paginated pages as I have them and page 9 is the second page and I am looking at the very top, which is IV.  Do you have it?

SISI KHAMPEPE: So the attack that you've just made reference to must be on page 8 and not page 9?

ADV PATEL: It is section 9, section (f) of the bundle.  Madam, have you located it, it is section (f) of the bundle and it is ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you I think I was in section (a) of the bundle.

ADV PATEL: I should have alerted you to that earlier.  Why was Mr Shabangu regarded as an opponent?

CONRAD NKUNA: He was regarded as a traitor and also a sellout and working hand in hand with the policemen.

ADV PATEL: Who gave you that information that he was a sellout and working hand in hand with the police?

CONRAD NKUNA: Derick Skosana and Soli Morapi gave me that information.

ADV PATEL: Was this information given to you personally?  Was this information given to you personally by Derick?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, we were talking with both of them and then they made mention of that kind of information.

ADV PATEL: Did you ask where they got that information from?

CONRAD NKUNA: I never asked them.

ADV PATEL: Was Mr Shabangu a member of the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: All that I know was that he was working for the ANC office.

ADV PATEL: Was he the regional Treasurer of the ANC in the Province?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV PATEL: When the information was given by Derick and Soli that he was working for the police and that he was a traitor, did you check that information with the ANC Head Quarters?

CONRAD NKUNA: No, I did not because I couldn't do that.

ADV PATEL: What were your reasons for not doing it?

CONRAD NKUNA: I was only a Youth League member, I had no authority or powers vested in me to investigate my seniors.  And it was also not so much of my prerogative to do that.

ADV PATEL: Was Mr Shabangu a senior in the ANC ranks in the Province?

CONRAD NKUNA: By virtue of his position as a Treasurer, ... Tape ends) ... certain about that.

ADV PATEL: ... of the ANC in the Province and you had two comrades, Soli and Derick who has just given you information that a senior member of the Provincial ANC was a sellout and working for the police.  Did you take this information up with any of the other senior officials of the ANC in the Province?

CONRAD NKUNA: I did not.  I just took it as a conversation, that they were just telling me that and I thought they got that information from the seniors of the ANC anyway.

ADV PATEL: You thought they got the information from the seniors - did you ask Soli and Derick where they got that information from?

CONRAD NKUNA: I did not ask them.  I just took it for granted, because they were seniors, so I took it for granted that they got that information from other seniors in the ANC.