Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you know that within the Indian community there were also other faiths, other than the Muslim faith?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: There are other faiths other than Muslims
such as Hindus, but also of them - many of them are in the top structures of the ANC.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Oh, it wasn't necessarily the Muslim faith?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: How can I say this, it wasn't the faith as such that we wanted to oppose, to a small measure, yes, since if they were to become the government they would privilege their religion over our religion, but that is what I believed at that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So your intention in selecting that particular target, was to launch and direct your launch of that attack against the ANC?  Why did you have to choose this particular centre?  Were there no other centres that you could have selected next to Cullinan?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: We did not have a particular instruction to attack these shops, but it was my view that it was a good target.

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I just want to ask you Mr Froneman, was this not a racially motivated attack, purely on race against the Indian community as such?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, as I have given testimony earlier, the Boer Resistance Movement wants to grant all races their own self rule, just as we wanted ourselves have that granted.

MR BLACK: And just a last question Mr Froneman, perhaps it might be two.  I gathered from your evidence which was led, that you were friendly with Mr Harmse's daughter at the time, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, that is correct.

MR BLACK: Was this action on your part not committed to simply to please Mr Harmse and to win his favour?  Sorry,
not only with his daughter, I didn't want to - but you were
friendly with the Harmse family, let's put it that way.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, it is correct, I was a friend of the family, but even before I in any way met his daughter or got to know her, I already joined the AWB and I had these political convictions.

MR BLACK: Yes, but to carry out this act, this particular act, was that not done for the sake of pleasing Mr Harmse? ... (tape ends)

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: ... clearly that our Volk, our ethnic community, were involved in a struggle against enemy forces, that we had to take up arms to take back that which properly belongs to us.

MR BLACK: Be absolutely clear, or perhaps Mr Harmse could give us more clarity on it, but in your mind, the enemy forces were the government, the ANC alliance.  Any other groups or persons you could add to that?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Honourable Chairman, our enemies were those people, any organisation or party who did not want to grant us the right to self rule or self government.

MR BLACK: Okay, thank you, that makes it a bit clearer.  I have no further questions.

MR BLACK: .

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Froneman, were there any shopping centres next to Cullinan that were owned by the Indian community?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Not to my knowledge, Honourable Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you make any enquiries in that regard?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I had no time to make extensive enquiries with regard to a particular target.  On that day I was given instruction to assist, I had to make a quick decision with regard to a target to attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did Mr Harmse indicate to you but you had to
select a target by a particular period?  Did he indicate any
urgency in the selection of such a target?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Mr Harmse told me that he had already received the materials for preparing the bomb, that he had been given the instructions to go and plant a bomb and I understood by this, that this had to be done immediately.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you want to re-examine now, or do you want to rather wait till after Mr Harmse has finished his evidence?

UNKNOWN: I'll wait till after Mr Harmse is finished.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, we will take the adjournment at this stage until two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS UNTIL TWO O'CLOCK - ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Black, are you ready to continue?

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Harmse, a similar question which I put to Mr Froneman is who did you regard to be the enemy in this war which was allegedly declared?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The enemy at that stage Mr Chairman, was the then government, the ANC/SACP alliance as well as the money powers.

MR BLACK: Sorry, what do you mean by the money powers?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The money powers in government circles, rule government and say what should be done and what should not be done.

MR BLACK: Could you just be a bit more specific about that.

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The big financial powers with all that they own, if we should try and get along without them, like De Beers and Anglo American, that type of Institution, the
government listens to what they are saying and if they tell the government to do something, then it happens normally.

MR BLACK: Are you suggesting that any people associated with those Organisations that you've mentioned, that is the government, the ANC alliance and these large financial institutions such as Anglo American etc, they would constitute legitimate targets as far as you were concerned?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now, you instructed Mr Froneman, I understand, to select a target after you had received a telephone message from an anonymous party that the war had started?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Did you give Mr Froneman any instructions as to the nature of the target he must select?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, at that stage after Mr de Klerk had announced that all religions are the same or would be the same, and I knew for a fact that Muslims had held high positions in the ANC, and that the financial powers played a large role, I instructed him to go to an Indian community as such.

MR BLACK: Did you tell him the nature of the target he must select or give him guidance on the nature of the target he should select?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, I told him to go for the Muslims because if we took them on, we could achieve, and better achieve our aims to the government.

INTERPRETER: That was not clearly stated.

MR BLACK: Did you give him, when I am saying guidance, as to what type of target or the nature of the target he should select or look out for?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Not specifically, no.

MR BLACK: When you said to him we must go for the Muslims, what did you mean by that?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I told him that because when the government, once it has been handed over to the ANC/SACP alliance, I knew there would be many Muslims in the high structures.  Then our religion would be totally taken over by the fact that they took over and we would have no religion whatsoever.

MR BLACK: Yes, but what I am getting at is what did you mean by going for the Muslims?  Must they be targeted as enemies?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: At that stage, yes, because Indians are Muslims.

MR BLACK: And this was after war had been declared?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct, yes.

MR BLACK: And therefore did you realise that by instructing a person to go for the Muslims, Muslims would be killed?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: We did plant the bomb in such a manner that people would, or could be killed if it went off, yes.

MR BLACK: So when you planted that bomb, you knew full well that there was a real possibility if not a probability that ordinary bypassers or civilians could be killed, irrespective - whoever it was?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: At that stage I did know that, I knew that people could be killed because in a war innocent people could always be killed in the cross fire.

MR BLACK: But I put it to you that you deliberately wanted to kill Muslims as it were, by planting that bomb.