Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR HATTINGH: Would it be correct to say that yourself, John Mndebele and Silos Nkonyane are old residents from this area and that Mkhwanazi was someone new to the area?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: So if anyone would know who the leaders were at the time who were causing all the violence and conflict, it would be you who had been living in this area and not someone new?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now, apart from or let me just ask this first, did you know Chris Ngwenya?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I knew him.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Jwi Zwane?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I knew him as well.

MR HATTINGH: Is it from your own personal knowledge that you say that they were the trouble makers at the time?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now, were there any other particular person who remained a trouble maker after Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane had been assassinated?

MR ZWANE: I wouldn't say specifically there was one particular person who was problematic, but I can say that the violence continued.
	We were no longer in the position to identify the one person who was perpetrating this violence.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know a person called Gozo?

MR ZWANE: No, I don't know a person called Gozo?

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Bongani Malinga?

MR ZWANE: No, I don't know him as well.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Obed Nhlabathi?

MR ZWANE: Let me put it this way, these boys who were here involved in the violence, were very young boys, far much younger than I am.
	I therefore don't know many of them.  I only knew people my age like Jwi and Chris Ngwenya, those are the people that I knew very well.  One other person that I knew after some time, was the one boy called Baba.  I don't know the others.
	I started to know the other one very recently, the one person who came and started making noise here at the hall.  I didn't know all these younger boys.

MR HATTINGH: Can we just get confirmation with regard to the last mentioned name, Obed Nhlabathi, you did not know the person at the time, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: No, I didn't know him.  He died without me knowing him.

MR HATTINGH: And your Committee did not discuss the elimination of any of the three mentioned people at any stage, even though you may not have known them personally?

MR ZWANE: As I have said that after instructing the SDU's about the elimination of Jwi, no other name was raised, except to say that violence should be brought to an end and stabilise the area.

CHAIRPERSON: If Gushu had to come tell us that that is so, he did receive instructions in respect of those two particular people, but he committed other murders in pursuance of your other instruction to maintain stability in the area, would you accept that that would fall under the third instruction?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I would accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you only knew of Obed Nhlabathi, you only knew of him after his death, did I understand you correctly?

MR ZWANE: No.  I didn't know him after his death.  I said I didn't know him when he died.

CHAIRPERSON: You only got to know of him after his death?

MR ZWANE: I didn't know him at all.  What I knew is that he died.  I have not seen or met him personally.  I may have met him, without knowing it was him.

CHAIRPERSON: But today you know of him?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I know about his history today.

CHAIRPERSON: Would his death, would you regard his death as having been caused in terms of that third instruction?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I would say so.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, when did you hear the details and the reasons about the assassination of Obed Nhlabathi?

MR ZWANE: I didn't get information about the instruction to kill him per se.  I only got information that he had died.  He was in hospital apparently at the time and there was fear that Black Cats might attack some of our people who were in hospital and the only way to ensure the safety of those people, was to eliminate Obed.
	I received the news and accepted it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, I would prefer if you would answer the question and not give us the full story and background.  When did you hear about the incident of the killing of Obed Nhlabathi, just when, that is all that I want to know.

MR ZWANE: I never heard about this death.  I only heard that he had already died, I don't know anything about the plans.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear that?

MR ZWANE: I think I heard about it the following day, even though I am not sure of the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: Will we be correct to say more or less a day or two after the death?

MR ZWANE: As I have indicated, I am not quite sure how many days thereafter it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I think that is the closest we are going to get to it.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, I appreciate that.  Who reported back to you about this incident?

MR ZWANE: (Indistinct) Nkosi told me about this.

MR HATTINGH: Is this person that you have just mentioned, is he also an applicant at this hearing?

MR ZWANE: No.  The person is not an applicant here and I think the person is also not involved, but that is the person from whom I got the information, who were in the same organisation.

MR HATTINGH: I would like to refer you to page 7 of the bundle of documents, about one third from the bottom under the heading Robberies.
	When you annexed this background statement to your application, what was meant by this paragraph a number of robberies were committed?  What was the purpose of enclosing that information?  Do you take responsibility for the robberies?

MR ZWANE: No.  I am not responsible because I don't know about it.  The people who knew about it, included it here.  I did indicate earlier on that people make their written submissions to the legal representative and I therefore think that this might have been somebody else's submission.

MR HATTINGH: Did you or your Committee give instructions for robberies to be committed, armed robberies?

CHAIRPERSON: Specifically.

MR ZWANE: Would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you or your Committee give specific instructions that robberies could or must be committed?

MR ZWANE: We did not say that robberies should be committed, but what we said was that everything possible should be done so that the violence should come to an end.
	The people therefore had to make use of their own discretion as to the acquisition of arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: In exercising that discretion, if they committed further crimes, would you say that would be in line with that third instruction?

MR ZWANE: When they are doing what?  Would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: If in maintaining this or achieving this stability, further crimes had to be committed, and these crimes were committed in the exercise of the discretion given to an operative, would you say that would fall in line with the instruction, the third instruction given by the Committee?

MR ZWANE: I can agree with that, that yes, it is in line with it because we never gave them specific instructions as to what to do.  We just instructed them that we would be pleased if there was stability at Ermelo.
	I also think that if I were to explain further, we also indicated that we accepted their manner of operation, accept it and pleased about it, knowing that they were attempting to bring about stability.  At the same time being aware that some people might get injured.
	We knew that many other people might get injured in the process and that was how it really, exactly happened.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Zwane, did you foresee that robberies could be committed, did you have robberies and other killings in mind when you spoke about this wide instruction?

MR ZWANE: Yes, we didn't have money, we did think that they might do things that were not acceptable in the community, but then there was nothing we could do at the time because we had nothing to give them to ensure that stability is brought back and maintained.