Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

ELIAS MBATHA: No, there were no instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, on a very small point, Mr Draht.  Mr Mbatha, in your application form on the first page you spell your name E L I A S and your signature you spell it E L L I A S.  Which is the correct spelling?  Is it meant to have two L's your name, or one L, in Elias?

ELIAS MBATHA: Would you please show me?

CHAIRPERSON: See, on the front page it ELIAS then on the back page, page 83, I just want to make sure that we get your name correctly.

ELIAS MBATHA: The first one is the one with, the first one is the correct one with one L.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Sorry, sorry to interrupt.  I see on page 84 when he signs his name there's a different, it ELLAS.  Okay.  We'll take it that it's E L I A S.  Thank you.  Carry on Mr Draht.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mbatha, who was your induna?

ELIAS MBATHA: Mr Sithole.

MR DRAHT: Did he gave you any orders on that specific day?

ELIAS MBATHA: No.

MR DRAHT: Can you describe to the Committee now what happened on the 12th of February 1994.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Continue.

ELIAS MBATHA: It was on the 12th of February 1994 and it was during the day we saw ANC people meeting, and the rain started drizzling, and when these people met the rain started pouring.  I went into my shack and as I was sitting there, one IFP follower whose name is Ndlela came to me.  And he said to me, "...Mbatha can you see what is happening further down there?" and I said, no.  And he said, "...I can see the ANC is armed down there."  And I said, "...Wait for me, let's go down to Magwaza"s."  Indeed he waited for me.
I took a firearm and put it on my waist, and we went out. ...(intervention)

MR DRAHT: What type of firearm did you take?

ELIAS MBATHA: 765.

MR DRAHT: To whom did this firearm belong?

ELIAS MBATHA: It was mine.

MR DRAHT: Did you possess any licence to have this firearm?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) have ammunition?

ELIAS MBATHA: No.

MR DRAHT: Did you take an interest ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, did he say the firearm had no ammunition?

ELIAS MBATHA: There firearm had ammunition, I just didn't have the ammunition, I mean I just didn't have the licence for the ammunition.

MR LAX: That's why I didn't understand the answer.  How many bullets did you have for the firearm?

ELIAS MBATHA: I cannot remember.  Because some of these rounds of ammunition were in my pocket.  I think there were six of them in the firearm.

MR LAX: That was in the magazine?  What you might call the cartridge of the firearm, some people call it a cassette.

ELIAS MBATHA: I had six rounds of ammunition in my pocket.  I cannot recall how many I had in the cartridge.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mbatha why did you take the firearm with you at that stage?

ELIAS MBATHA: I heard that the ANC were armed, and there was this talk that we had to moved their posters which were placed in our area of residence.

MR DRAHT: Continue.

ELIAS MBATHA: I took my firearm and proceeded towards Magwaza's place, where I found IFP people.  And it was not long after I had arrived and the ANC started coming down, approaching us from where we were standing at Magwaza's shop.  And when we got out of this shack and we went towards the sports fields.  And before we could get to the sports field they started pelting us with stones, and we had to take cover, hiding from behind the shacks.  They started shooting, and after the shooting we stood up and we went to them.  We too started shooting at them.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mbatha could you see with what were they shooting at you?

ELIAS MBATHA: I could not make out, but I could tell from the sound that they were using firearms.

MR DRAHT: How many times?  Did they shoot once or more than, or several times?

ELIAS MBATHA: They fired several times.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said that they were shooting you, how, how do you know that?  Purely from the sound.  How do you know that somebody wasn't merely shooting into the air?

MR DRAHT: Even 'though I would not in the position to say, but I concluded that they were shooting at us because they were fighting us and they were pelting us with stones, and therefore they could not have shot in the air because they were fighting us.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear the whistle of bullets through the air for instance?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I did hear that.

MR DRAHT: Continue.

ELIAS MBATHA: They started running away when we exchanged gunfire, and they run, they ran towards the TPA offices.

MR DRAHT: Who in your group returned fire?

ELIAS MBATHA: I too fired shots.  Mr Sithole as well.

MR DRAHT: Could you see what Mr Sithole fired, with what type of gun?

ELIAS MBATHA: He had this rifle, the one called AK.

MR DRAHT: Did you shoot at the ANC group?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes I shot at them.

MR DRAHT: Did you see if you hit somebody?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I could tell.  I was just shooting at this group of people.

MR DRAHT: Continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that.  But it was a big target, wasn't it?  How many people were there?  What was the size, approximate size, of the group, the ANC group?

ELIAS MBATHA: There were many of them.  They could have been 400, they were quite many.

CHAIRPERSON: How far away were you from them when you shot towards them?

ELIAS MBATHA: They were a distance away even 'though I'm not in the position to say, but they were a distance from where I was standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it longer than this room that we're sitting in now?

MR DRAHT: I would say from the Chairperson right up to the exit point of these buildings.

CHAIRPERSON: That I think was 35 about 40 paces.  I think it was 35 from, was it 35 from here.  You paced it out Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, approximately 35 paces.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue Mr Mbatha.

ELIAS MBATHA: And when they fled we went back.

MR DRAHT: Back where?

ELIAS MBATHA: We went back to where we came from, from Magwaza's shop.  We went back when they ran away towards the TPA offices.  And when we went back that's where we came across one person who was dead near Skosana's shop.

MR DRAHT: Did you know this person?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I didn't know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Skosana's shop also a shebeen?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

MR DRAHT: Continue.

ELIAS MBATHA: We went back and we waited at the grounds, and the police came.  I ran away.

MR LAX: Just one thing before we lose it, sorry Mr Draht to interpose.  You said that the dead person was near Skosana's shop.  How far was that from where you were shooting?  It was on your way from where you were shooting back to Magwaza's, but how far was it from where you were shooting?

ELIAS MBATHA: He was a distance away from where I was standing.  He was on the other side and the ANC was fleeing towards a different direction.  I only saw this person on our way back.

MR LAX: You can't really tell us that, from the place where you were shooting at these people from, to the place where you found him on your way back, what, is it directly on your way?  Or would you have to go out of your way, to get to this person?

ELIAS MBATHA: I'm trying to explain here that the person was not on the side from where I was shooting.  I only saw this person when we came back from pursuing the ANC people.  And I only saw this person in front of Skosana's shop.

MR LAX: Okay, the problem is cleared up in this sense, that I hadn't understood you earlier to be saying that you had pursued them.  Maybe you can elaborate on that.  Your previous evidence was that you fired the shots, that they ran away, you then went back to Magwaza's and on the way you saw them, you saw this deceased man.  You haven't said anything about pursuing these people at all.  So that's the problem.  But perhaps Mr Draht can deal with that as he questions you.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mbatha, after the ANC people, when they started to run away, did you pursue them?