Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may proceed with the next witness.

ADV LOURENS: I call then Crosby Ndinisa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndinisa, please stand up.  Please give us your full names.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Crosby Kolani Ndinisa.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: (Duly sworn in, states).

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may sit down.  You have been properly sworn in.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Ndinisa, for the record, could you state how old you are.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I am 29 years old.  I was born in 1968.

ADV LOURENS: Did you go to school?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, I did.

ADV LOURENS: Until what standard?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Until standard six.

ADV LOURENS: Are you, have you ever worked in any job?  What sort of job have you done?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I was working while I was still growing up.  I was working for the fruit and vegetable shops.

ADV LOURENS: Where were you born?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I was born in Mbekweni.

ADV LOURENS: And have you lived there your whole life?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, I lived in Mbekweni, but I also lived in Guguletu, but I was born in Mbekweni.

ADV LOURENS: In 1985 were you living in Mbekweni?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Now, were you involved in any political organisation?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Could you tell the Committee which political organisation you were involved in?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I was a member of the Paarl Youth Congress, the PAYCO.

ADV LOURENS: Is that PAYCO also referred to by Mr Maxam?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Were you an office bearer in the, in PAYCO?  Did you hold any position?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: No, I was just a member.

ADV LOURENS: What was, were you a member of the United Democratic Front?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: No, I was just working with them and supporting their ideas, but I belonged to PAYCO.

ADV LOURENS: Now, you have heard the first applicant, Mr Maxam's evidence about the violence and unrest in Mbekweni community.  Is that correct?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Do you agree with the way in which he summed up that situation?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, I do agree with him.

ADV LOURENS: Now, in your own words explain to the Committee what you felt you would have to do to get out of this situation or to do something about this situation that was going on in Mbekweni at the time.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: What I can say is that in 1985 under the State of Emergency in Mbekweni the situation was very terrible.  There was conflict between AZAPO, UDF and PAYCO.  UDF and PAYCO were working together.  AZAPO was being helped by the SADF and SAP, the police.  They were attacking UDF and PAYCO.  There were a lot of people who lost their lives.  They were members of UDF and PAYCO.  I can mention their names.  Up until seven of them died and they were attacked by AZAPO members.  Others were attacked while the police were there.  Others were attacked when the police were not there.  This situation led to us attacking AZAPO.  I took part in burning down AZAPO members' houses.  We threw petrol bombs.  The police were attacking.  I was amongst the people who were attacking the police.  We were stoning them and using petrol bombs to them.
	There were also guns we shot at the police and the police shot at us by rubber bullets and they dispersed teargas.  Some of them Comrades had guns with them and they also shot at the police.  We were under the State of Emergency in 1985.  This happened everyday.  It was very difficult.  People were scared all the time because of this situation.

ADV LOURENS: Now, was it important then for you to get ammunition, firearms and ammunition?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, it was very important, because AZAPO members were attacking people and what I can say is that in 1985 AZAPO members would come in the middle of the night together with the police in their Caspirs.  They would come to where the Comrades were staying and they would stop the Caspir in front of the Comrade's home and they would go out of the Caspir and attack you as the Comrade.  After that they would axe you and use all sorts of weapons to you and they would leave with their Caspir.  This led to that, as I was a member of PAYCO, I decided to be in a group where we were trained to defend ourselves.  As the community we were looking for weapons to defend ourselves.

ADV LOURENS: Now, round about April in 1985 did you make any plans, then, to get any arms and ammunition?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, we did.  If I remember very well, we would discuss this issue now and again.  Up until the 15th of April when we were together with the two Comrades next to me.

ADV LOURENS: Just stop there please.  Okay, that is what I was going to ask you.  Carry on.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I was together with Madoda Tisana and other Comrades.  There were six of us if I still remember very well.  Philemon Maxam was not there at the time.  We decided to go out and look for weapons.  We got a report that we could find weapons in Vlaklandplaas, Vlakkeland Farm.  The person who gave us this report was Noyoyo Nelson Sono, but while we were in Block D Philemon Maxam came to us and we told him about this situation.  If I ... he came to look at the situation as people were being shot.  He wanted to know whether there were people who were robbed and we then told him about this report by Nelson Noyoyo Sono, but if I remember well Madoda Tisana was the one reporting to him, but I was also there.  As we know, as we knew that he was a leader and we could trust him in the struggle.
	We asked Philemon Maxam if we could have a gun with us so that we can defend ourselves when we were being attacked.  He told us that he does have a gun, but he cannot give us his gun, but he will be happy if he will take part in this raid.

ADV LOURENS: Now, sorry can I just, so just to stop you there.  The information about what was contained at Vlakkeland, did you, you said you heard that from Nelson Sono.  Is that right?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, that is right.

ADV LOURENS: Is that correct?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Now, who was he?  Was he somebody in PAYCO or the UDF or who was he?  What was his position?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Nelson Sono, I am not sure where he was, but there are Comrades who had a membership card, PAYCO membership card.  I would know that a person is a Comrade, but I would not be sure whether he was, he had a membership card.  That is how I knew Nelson Sono.  I was not sure.

ADV LOURENS: Thank you.  Now, on the 15th you then got together with various others including the other two applicants and continue to tell the Committee then what happened after that.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Nelson Sono, as he explained this to us, he told us that he was staying next to Vlakkeland.  When we were in Vlakkeland you could see Nelson Sono's home.  He then reported to us that the SADF members would camp in that area.  If we could go in that area we can get weapons so that we can be armed.  He said that the Caspirs will be there all the time.  He then said that we may get weapons in that area.  We then decided to go there together with Philemon Maxam.  We met in the G Block next to Madoda Tisana's home.  From G Block we went to the farm where we were looking for the weapons.
	When we were about the gate the owner of the house, Mr Noble, was going out of his home.  Philemon Maxam asked a job.  He said that he does not have anything to offer.  What I would like to mention about what happened that day is that Nelson Sono said to Philemon Maxam, Dakinas, as we called him, he said, Dakinas, shoot.  I remember that Philemon Maxam tried to say something that we must be very careful there and Mr Noble then left.  Mr Maxam did not shoot him.  After he left we went into the yard of this Vlakkeland Farm.