Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

H J P BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER
"It was an investigation component, administrative one and the intelligence component, the investigators, I'd estimate there were about six to eight of them."
And then you how many there were in the administrative component.  And furthermore you say:
"Some of the members in the intelligence component, who are also applicants in this case, was Maj du Preez, W/O Wasserman and Sgt van der Westhuizen."
And that is still the same situation, not so?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, the situation remains the same, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well the situation here, Mr Botha, is that you weren't really a lot of people who could address the problem of the struggle of the past here in Natal, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Please continue then, paragraph 84.
MR BOTHA
"Chairperson, Natal was a boiling pot of violence, especially from 1985 the violence escalated.  Col Andy Taylor kept an informal record of incidents in which he kept record of the acts of terrorist as they manifested themselves.  A copy of this was handed over to the TRC's Investigative Unit in Durban in 1997 and also served as an annexure or an exhibit in the Ndwandwe amnesty application."

MR VISSER: And there you refer to Exhibit A.  Mr Chairman, this was a document written in manuscript, which we retyped at the time.  We can hand it to you so that you can get the feel of the document.  Mr Chairman, what it deals with is it deals with the dates, the places where violence took place, it gives a reference number, it gives a description of the type of violence and where there was a result it gives you that.  We are not going to formally hand this in as an exhibit, but we will make this available to you to page through to get the general feeling of it.

CHAIRPERSON: If we require it we will do so.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you find that you would like that as an exhibit, then clearly we will reproduce it for you and we will hand it in.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  So in paragraph 85, the Exhibit A is this document here ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: That's the one that I've just handed to you.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that's the informal record kept by Taylor.

MR VISSER: Yes, that's the one I've just handed to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Now we must just understand one thing, that that document isn't necessarily complete, it does not give everything necessarily.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VISSER: But it gives a running commentary on the violence as it were, in Natal.  Then Mr Chairman also in the Ndwandwe amnesty hearing, in the record at page 568 and following, that document is discussed and summarised in the evidence of Mr Botha.  And we've given you that reference at page 27 of Exhibit A.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR VISSER: Now one of the things which took place here in Natal was the so-called Operation Butterfly.

H J P BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And that is the one which fell below Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Could you inform the Committee with regard to the brief summary that we have compiled regarding Operation Butterfly please.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson - or before I continue, let me just explain to you that in the past MK operatives or trained terrorists would infiltrate the country, carry out an order which had been given to them, either in Zambia or in Swaziland, and then they would withdraw again.  Either that, or in other circumstances they would be arrested, prosecuted and sentenced.
	Now in the case of Operation Butterfly there was a shift of emphasis from the usual to an establishment of a high profile infrastructure within the RSA, consisting of trained MK operatives or terrorists, who wen they had established themselves within the country would be supported or were supported by local members of MK.

CHAIRPERSON: That's within the country?

H J P BOTHA: That was within the country.

MR VISSER: Very well.
MR BOTHA
"During the investigation of Operation Butterfly and the activities of these persons and during the investigation and the trial of a case which was STATE vs DUDU BUTHELEZI AND OTHERS, case number 70/86, Pietermaritzburg Supreme Court, this case being known as Ramlakan case, the existence of the first APMC, which Area Politico Military Committee and their activities under the operational name Butterfly, was exposed within the RSA.  And this was the first time that such an operation had been identified within the RSA.
		These activities included the infiltration of terrorists to Natal, the smuggling of weaponry, ammunition and explosives, the establishment and extension of structures, the training of terrorists internally, as well as acts of terror which were committed in Natal.  In other words, he was recruited here, trained here, provided with weapons here and he immediately went over to commit acts of terror.
		Now the Amanzimtoti limpet mine explosion on the 23rd of December 1985 was one of the more prominent examples of terror which were committed by this particular group."

MR VISSER: I'm told that we're going a bit too quickly, Chairperson.
	Could you please proceed somewhat slower.  It might just be a good idea to pause for second at the end of a sentence, so that the interpreters can catch up with your speech.

H J P BOTHA: Very well.
The Amanzimtoti limpet mine explosion on the 23rd of December 1985 was an example of this.  A person by the name of Andrew Zondo was found guilty regarding the placement of this bomb and later he received the death sentence for this.
		The members of the so-called APMC consisted among others, of medical students who were connected to the University of Natal, under the leadership of one, Dr Ramlakan."

MR VISSER: Yes.  And just to avoid confusion, APMC is also referred to DPMC from time to time, isn't that so?  But it is the same thing.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct, and I will explain what DPMC stands for.  It is Durban Politico Military Committee, because that was the area in which they were actively involved.
"And they were compiled from two groupings, namely externally trained terrorists, among others, Andrew Zondo and Robert Ndlanzi ..."
...(intervention)

MR VISSER: N-L-A-N-Z-I.  Very well.

H J P BOTHA: Alias George Fakude.  They were not the only ones, but they were just two of the more prominent members.
"The second grouping was the internal ANC/SACP supporters among others, including Dr Ramlakan and his spouse, Sandi Africa."

MR VISSER: ... it doesn't matter.  Continue with the other names.  Lulamela ...
MR BOTHA
"Lulamela Caute, Portia Ndwandwe, Percy Nlati, Pumezo Ncgweni, Dudu Buthelezi, Nokosipo Stanly Biela."

MR VISSER: Now Ndwandwe and Ngweni and Biela were also mentioned during the amnesty applications which have previously been heard before the Amnesty Committee right here in this very same hall in November 1998.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: This was before Judge Wilson.

H J P BOTHA: That is so.

MR VISSER: Please continue.
MR BOTHA
"Also involved in the DPMC or the APMC as it was known, were the following persons:  Raymond Lala, alias MK Brazo ..."
...(intervention)

MR VISSER: And he is a victim in one of the incidents during which you have applied for amnesty for assault?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Then there's also Sandi Africa, Dr Ramlakan himself.  Who was Kevin Qoboshiyane?  Perhaps I should just spell that for the record; Q-O-B-O-S-H-I-Y-A-N-E.  Who was he?

H J P BOTHA: Kevin Qoboshiyane was also one of the trained ANC terrorists who came from the outside and became involved within the RSA.

MR VISSER: Then there's Mo Shaik and his two brothers, as well as his father.

H J P BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And one Molana.  I beg your pardon, did you want to say something with regard to Mo Shaik?