Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR COETZEE: You may continue.

FERDINAND BARNARD: In other words Chairperson, if you would grant me the opportunity, I would like to make an unconditional apology to the victims.  I would like to apologise for any share that I had, whether direct or indirect in any of the things that caused problems for them, that caused tragedy and tears for them, that created uncertainty in their lives, and particularly because Mrs Omar is here today, I would like to say that her attitude has meant that I have done what I have done here, yesterday and today, specifically that tipped the scales for me and led me to speak the truth.
	I would like to thank her because it is valuable to me.  It was with malice and an evil heart that I came to your residence where you and your family were supposed to feel safe and I came with the express purpose of killing your husband and the head of your household, Dullah Omar, I did everything in my power to materialise this plan.  I know today that it would have been utterly wasted.
	Furthermore I am in a prison where originally the prison was constructed for executions, and I cannot tell you how many times I have thought that if it wasn't for the efforts of people like Adv Dullah Omar to abolish capital punishment, I would have been a dead man.  So what happens now?  I am doing everything in my power to kill him and to cause his family damage, but they pray for me and they do everything to assist me and indirectly, they save my life.
	I cannot express my regret.   In some bizarre manner, it gives me satisfaction to know that I am paying for what I have done.  My greatest desire is no longer to be released from prison, I would like to become the old Ferdi Barnard once again.  I would like to become what I was before I became involved in this mess, before the police, before everything.  Even if it has to take place in a prison cell, even if I spend the rest of my natural life in a super maximum correctional facility, it has become important to me that people try to understand my circumstances and that they try to forgive me.
	There is a life after this, and if it means that I will spend the rest of my life in prison, I would like to do so with a clear conscience, with a peaceful state of mind away from all this mess that I have helped to create.
	My parents and my family are decent people.  My friends are decent, straight forward people.  They do not deserve what I have done to them.  I owe them an apology as well.  I owe Dr Webster's next-of-kin, in particular Ms Maggie Friedman, an unconditional apology.  I know it does not change anything.  You know how it feels for me, it feels as if a man comes to you and jumps into bed with your wife and then the next minute just says "sorry", what does that do?  It does not change the situation, because the damage is done.
	Sorry is what you say when you spill a drink on a man and if you do it again, you are looking for trouble.  What I feel and what I have experienced, goes so much deeper than that.  I cannot express to you in words how I feel.  I just want you to try to find a place in your heart somewhere you could forgive me.  I have made mistakes, I am being punished for them, I am taking the punishment like a man, I don't want to put anybody else  in prison, I don't want to testify against them.
	I will continue to meet out my sentence as such.  Thank you Chairperson.

MR COETZEE: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Barnard, we will take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR H DU PLESSIS: No, I have no questions, thank you.
Mr Chairperson, no.  I would like to ask some questions maybe at a later stage, but at this stage, none.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini?

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, just for the record, Mr van Zyl has testified in as far as Mr Barnard's evidence is inconsistent with or differs to the evidence of Mr van Zyl, it is denied.  But similarly at this stage, I would reserve the right to cross-examine once the opponents have cross-examined, if it becomes necessary to question Mr Barnard at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the opponents?

MR MARTINI: Mr Bizos at the inception was advised that he represented certain opponents to amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr van Eck?  Sorry?

GEORGE BIZOS: I have no specific objection to the proposal made, but this is an enquiry.  The applicant has chosen to give evidence once.  I don't think that, and I am giving notice of this, that we will consider our position and would ask that we are entitled to have Mr van Zyl and others that have given evidence, called for further cross-examination on the evidence given by Mr Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr van Eck?

MR VAN ECK: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Barnard, during the time when you were with Mr Botha there and did the observation on Bruce White, would you agree that while you were standing there, that you were quite visible and formed a visible picture?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, Mr Chairperson, we formed a visible picture but there was no other way in which we could do it.
	We had to create the impression that we were two people standing on the corner of a road, and having a conversation.  We did not stand on the same corner, every single time, we moved around.

MR VAN ECK: You testified that your impression was that Bruce White had to be killed?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I testified with that regard.

MR VAN ECK: It is my instructions from Mr Botha that the killing of Mr White was not in the framework of that observation, will you agree with that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I did not say that Mr Botha told me that we had to kill Bruce White, this was my own perception.  That is how I thought about the whole matter, because I knew the CCB's workings and I viewed it in a very serious light.  I knew that we were not an intelligence collection service, and that was the perception that I had.  If I can recall correctly, this incident took place in June 1989 and this was after I killed David Webster.
	That could have been a factor that led to the fact that I thought that this would be the next person, but it did not come from Mr Botha or anybody else.  He made it very clear to me that it was only observation.

MR VAN ECK: So it was only your own perception?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes.

MR VAN ECK: If we go to the Webster incident, can you recall that Mr Botha more than a year ago told you in prison that he is going to make known his role in the Webster incident?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct Mr Chairperson, he did say that.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall that Mr Botha also told you during that time that he had conversations or meetings with the Director of Public Prosecution, Mr Pretorius, where he already made a full statement concerning the Webster incident?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, that is how it happened, and Mr Botha did inform me about what he told him and he also gave me a copy of the statement in a visit to me.

MR VAN ECK: The discussions to which you have referred to with Mr van Zyl, concerning the Athlone incident and the baboon foetus, I assume it was also directly after these various incidents or projects?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Honourable Chairperson, I cannot specifically say it was shortly thereafter, but it was quite fresh in my memory.

MR VAN ECK: What I am trying to say here is, was it in the same year?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it was definitely in the same year.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Botha's evidence will be that he cannot recall these specific conversations, but if they did occur, his reaction would have been the way in which you described it?