Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-09

BONGANI NKOSI: They were occupying highest positions in the IFP, that is why we got the opportunity when they were away, we managed to burn their shacks, but that took place in my family house.  I was staying in the house, they were staying outside in the shacks.
	They used to instruct us to lock the gates, and not to move around during the night.

MR SHANE: Then after that, you say you burnt six or seven shacks which belonged to the IFP.  Where were these shacks?

BONGANI NKOSI: There is a church next to my family house, that is Mavuso Street and Mazibuko Street.  There was a large squatter camp there.
	This took place during the day, the sun was very bright.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this large squatter camp?

BONGANI NKOSI: There is a church between Mazibuko Street and there is Lekwano (indistinct), but this was between Mavuso and Mazibuko Street.  That is next to where I stay right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

BONGANI NKOSI: We went to the garage to fetch some petrol, we set the shacks alight.  I set the shacks alight.

ADV GCABASHE: Who lived in those shacks?

BONGANI NKOSI: A lot of Zulu's were staying there, you didn't even know their names.  You would see different faces and you wouldn't even understand what was going on.  We got that opportunity and we made use of it, we set their shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON: Merely because they were Zulu people?

BONGANI NKOSI: We knew that they were IFP members, we were setting their shacks alight, because we knew very well that they were IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that?

BONGANI NKOSI: I grew up in that area.  I stayed there from 1990, after running away and I knew the situation there.  I knew everything.  I knew the place very well, that is why we set the shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON: The first shack there in that area, in that camp, who did that belong to, the first shack you set alight?

BONGANI NKOSI: I think you are talking about the A18?

CHAIRPERSON: No, A18 was not in the camp, as I understand your evidence?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, I don't know the owners.  I was just setting them alight, I was not interested in knowing who ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am interested.  The person who lived in that shack, you didn't know?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: So how is it possible for you to say that that person was a member of the IFP?

BONGANI NKOSI: When I say I don't know this person, I don't know his name, but I knew that he was an IFP member.  I didn't know his name, but I knew the person.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was that person living there, or how long did you know this person for?

BONGANI NKOSI: It was not a long time, because I never used to care.  I used to see him moving up and down, because in ten years, as I was staying there for ten years, I saw this person, and that was the person that I knew.  That is why I decided to target their shacks, because we knew that in that church, the Zulu's were staying there.  We set alight all the shacks that belonged to that church.

MR SHANE: You say when you talk about we, who do you mean we?  Who was with you?

BONGANI NKOSI: There was this gentleman, Sicelo.  Sicelo was a real man.  I had Charles with me, the people that you could see that they can really do the work.  The three of them would follow us.  Anyone from another section would come and give assistance, even if we were shooting or burning the property, they would just come and they will tell you later that I am from such and such a place.  You will just let those people render assistance when necessary.

ADV GCABASHE: But on this particular occasion, you were with Sicelo only, nobody ...

BONGANI NKOSI: And Charlie.

ADV GCABASHE: And Charlie?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, and the others, although I cannot remember their names.  They were just following, they were just there with us, we were not yet established at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You just went around and burnt, threw petrol on about seven or eight shacks and you burnt them?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that easy.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't know the identity of those, the owners of those shacks, or did you?

BONGANI NKOSI: We knew the owners.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you burn the other shacks?

BONGANI NKOSI: I told that we were fighting and as we were fighting, we were divided.  The IFP people would be on the other side and the ANC people would be on the other side, so we would burn everything that belonged to the enemy because even if you would meet, you would see that these people were different and you would see that they intended to do something bad.
	We could identify them because they were staying on the other side, that is why we burnt down their shacks.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Shane, before you continue, you said that you were not established yet at that time, just explain that to me, at the time you burnt the shacks?

BONGANI NKOSI: I am trying to explain that we did not have things like code of conduct, we couldn't define the roles, we couldn't distinguish between the roles.  We would just go and do whatever.  We did not have direction at that time.  We got hole of code conduct and we shed some light in that process.

ADV GCABASHE: So who were you acting as, because what you are saying is you hadn't really formed your SDU structures yet, at the time?  Who were you acting as at the time?

BONGANI NKOSI: Listen, I was Commander, but the policies, things that would bind us, were not there.  We just nominated one another that this was going to be the Commander, but as to deployment, we said nothing about those, but we just knew that we were going to fight.
	There are different stages of growing up from a baby to an adult.  We had some mistakes because we were not trained in using firearms.  That is why I am saying we were still in the dark, we did not know, we wouldn't distinguish what was wrong and what was right.  All we knew was, we knew where the IFP people stayed.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying that you were an SDU unit in its early stages of formation, is this what you are saying?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: When did this incident occur, give me an idea as to the year?

BONGANI NKOSI: I am trying to discuss with my legal representative, but I cannot remember the date, even the year.  If you are in the battle field, you are always on cover, you won't even read the newspapers.  I can't remember but I remember that I burnt down the houses, the shacks.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but I am really asking about those early days of the SDUs.   Essentially I just need to know when you formed the SDU that you say you were part of at that stage, just a rough idea, 1990, 1991, but you know better than I do.  I can guess it must be that period, but you would be better able to say roughly at this time, because that was when you were forming the SDUs.

BONGANI NKOSI: I think it was late 1992 or 1993, but I cannot say exactly the date.

MR SHANE: Also at A9 and A8 Mazibuko Street, you were involved in the burning of shacks, correct?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: How many shacks?  Can you remember how many?

BONGANI NKOSI: As to A8  and A9, that was an IFP territory.  You wouldn't even check the other things, you would just pop it through and set it alight and run away or take a cover.  Therefore it wouldn't be easy for you to count whether the shacks were going right around the corner, but a large area with shacks.

MR SHANE: And were you with other people when you did that?

BONGANI NKOSI: I told you that I was always in the company of this brave two gentlemen, Sicelo and Charles.

MR SHANE: And what has happened to Sicelo and Charles?

BONGANI NKOSI: Charles, though I cannot remember the year, he passed away.  I was left in a desperate situation.  Early last year, in April 1998, Sicelo was a policeman at the time, he shot his girlfriend and he shot himself, and he died.