Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

MS MOLOISANE: It won't be possible, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm aware that prison authorities are loathe to allow us to go further than 5 o'clock, in fact they prefer that we should leave at 4 o'clock because of the problems, the peculiar problems that they always have to make sure that they do not suffer, which we need not mention here, that you are aware of as counsel.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case I think we'll adjourn these proceedings until tomorrow morning.  What time will be convenient for us to start?

MS MOLOISANE: Can I add something?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: I'll be in Court tomorrow morning.  I was only given today's date by the Chief Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: We were under the impression, Ms Moloisane, that you had been warned to be here for the whole week.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, but then we received documentation to the effect that my application would be heard today and tomorrow it will be Advocate Lopeng(?) with his applicants, and it runs like that.  Well fortunately we are all at the Pretoria Bar so we know how each of, I mean the time that has been allocated to each of us.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm aware that you've not appeared before the Amnesty Committee and you therefore will not know of the peculiar problems attached to this process, that things are completely out of our hands.  As to when a matter will be capable of being concluded is something that we can hardly give to counsel, but a matter cannot be allocated a particular period, a matter can run, it can be put down and estimated to be capable of being finalised within a day but for reasons beyond anyone's control it runs for longer than that, as you are aware today.  And we've hardly got to the evidence of Mr Radebe who still has to give testimony in respect of two incidents.

MS MOLOISANE: I do agree, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we find ourselves in great difficulties if we cannot proceed tomorrow with this matter.  We have victims who are travelling from far, and this is not a matter that I would like to pend indefinitely.  We have a duty to society, particular to victims, to make sure that if the matter has been heard it gets concluded as speedily as possible.  If this matter is not heard tomorrow then it means it's going to be part-heard and the chances of reconstituting this Panel within the next 9 months are very slim, because we already have matters allocated to each and every member and we will sitting in different Panels, and this will cause untold delays to this matter and it's something that we wouldn't like to have, we'd like to avoid at all costs.  Is there no possibility of you trying to arrange for tomorrow's matter to stand down?

MS MOLOISANE: It's not possible because it's an urgent application on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs, whom I represent, and they knew that I would be here today.

CHAIRPERSON: But Ms Moloisane, ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: And the urgent application has been set down for 10 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: ... when we started these proceedings, were you not as counsel aware that this is a matter that would not be capable of being concluded today, particularly because we started this application at 2 o'clock? - and this was by agreement.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, I do not want to enter into a dialogue with the Chair, but the matter, the first matter of Levy Makoe lasted for less than an hour and I was under the impression that the same would happen with this one, and all those activities happened in the Vaal Triangle townships.  Above all, all the other advocates who have been appearing here appeared for a day only and because it was, I had been allocated today's date only, I rescheduled my programme ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I respond without entering into a dialogue with you, and say the Committee made you quite aware in chambers that this was not a matter that would be disposed of today.  We made you aware and I remember that I said to you this is a matter which is opposed and you said you had not been made aware that the matter was opposed, but I advised you in chambers that the matter was opposed and that I suspected that the matter would last longer than a day.  You did not say anything in response to my intimation.

MS MOLOISANE: The Committee Members can also bear that, can support me on that, I did not hear that, Madam Chair.  The only thing that we talked about was that there was a potential for a conflict of interests in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: That was much earlier in the morning, much earlier in the morning.

MS MOLOISANE: And that is the reason that made me not to go to the MEC's office anymore, I simply phoned them and told them I wouldn't be coming anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was much earlier in the morning, then you came back to advise us that you had cancelled your meeting.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But we had advised you, we had advised quite early in the morning that this was a matter that would not be disposed of within a day.

MS MOLOISANE: I did not hear that, I did not hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: We must see you in chambers.
	These proceedings will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS