Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair.  You see Mr Khumalo, what I am trying to ascertain from you is that earlier on you said before the Commanders took any action, they were accountable to you, they needed to sit down and strategise with you.  Is that correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Not all the time, Ms Thabete.  His evidence was very specific, he said in the event of a target being identified, it is then that they would have to sit down and discuss that issue with him.
	It was not as generally as you are putting it.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, maybe I can get some clarification on that.  If the Commanders had identified a target, are you saying that they had to come back and discuss it with you?

BONGA KHUMALO: Ms Thabete, I am lost now.

MS THABETE: Sorry?

BONGA KHUMALO: I am lost now.

MS THABETE: I am saying can you answer yes or no?  If they had identified a target, they had to come and account to you and you had to sit down and strategise, that is your evidence, is that correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: I would like to say yes with an explanation.

MS THABETE: Yes, your answer is yes, I would like to proceed with my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Allow him that.

MR LAX: What is his explanation, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Allow him that.

MR LAX: He says he would say yes with an explanation.  What is your explanation Mr Khumalo?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am saying here is that when we are talking about a target, when we are talking about attacking a police station, that is a target.   When we are talking about killing a person, that is also a target.
	These, there are orders that did not require strategising.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence was simply that in the event that a target would be identified, then it was incumbent for the Commanders to come and sit down with you so that you would strategise on how to carry out the mission regarding the identified target.
	That was your evidence.

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: Let's be more specific and talk about the target of (indistinct).  You say you gave a general order that (indistinct) must be killed whenever they are targeted, is that correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, I said that.

MS THABETE: Did you give any instructions as to how the said (indistinct) should be identified or it was up to the Commanders how they identified (indistinct)?

BONGA KHUMALO: What identification are you talking about?

MS THABETE: I am talking about the fact that if they had identified somebody as (indistinct), did you give them any instructions as to what will comprise of (indistinct) and what will not comprise of (indistinct)?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, I hope you have been listening attentively to the evidence, I don't want us to traverse a ground that we have already traversed.
	His earlier testimony is that they had an underground structure which was part of MK, which would verify whether a person was such an (indistinct) or not.  Is that not what you said in your earlier evidence?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, thank you.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, I must have missed that one.  In the case of Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena, my question to you is when they were identified as (indistinct), was the said information verified with the underground structures as you have given evidence that they would have to verify such information?

BONGA KHUMALO: It was a matter of protocol.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the information that you received that the two ladies in question, were informers, verified with your underground structures, whose duty and task it was to do such verification?

BONGA KHUMALO: Unfortunately Chairperson, I was in the process of running away at the time, I could not have confirmed that.

CHAIRPERSON: You were in the process of your running away?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you have to run away?

BONGA KHUMALO: This does not mean that I had left the township, I was around the township, but then I did not at the time, have direct link with the Commanders.  I only met the Commander after the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did you at least take the trouble to ascertain from one of the senior officers in that Unit, Mr Radebe, who was second in charge to Mr Mhlongo, whether there had been such a verification, and why this information was being told to you and not to the Commander and whether in fact the Commander had been apprised of this valuable information.

BONGA KHUMALO: I am a little bit confused.  What I am saying here, is that the people who were operating on the ground, were not accounting directly to myself.  They accounted to their Commanders, after which the Commander would come and account to me pertaining to an operation that had been carried out, that is what I am saying.
	That is how it happened, I only heard after the incident that this had happened.

MR LAX: Is it therefore not correct Mr Khumalo that you had no knowledge of any such verification with your underground intelligence structures?  Isn't that so?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you, let's move on Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Is it not correct also Mr Khumalo, that based on the evidence that as an Overall Commander, the sub-Commanders had to be accountable to you.  Isn't it correct that in the incident of the killing of Hapile Nduno and the assault on Elsie Mokoena, the Commander Mr Mhlongo did not account to you before the incident took place?

BONGA KHUMALO: He did not come to me because of procedure.  I explained something here about targets.
	If you understand the situation as it was, it is that there was no direct mission to go and seek these people.  They happened to meet her on the way and they then received an order from Radebe.  There was no way we could have met, sat down and get a permission from myself as to whether they should proceed with this or not.

MS THABETE: I am getting confused Mr Khumalo.  What is confusing me is that you had said before someone is targeted, they should account to you so that you can strategise and the evidence led earlier on, regarding this incident, is that Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena were wanted.
	I don't understand if you say they just met them on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you forgotten that he had given a general order?  Have you forgotten that aspect of his evidence?

MS THABETE: No Madam Chair, I haven't.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, tied together with the identification of targets.  I think it is unfair to put that aspect in isolation.  It must be in context with the general order that he had issued to his four Commanders to eliminate (indistinct).

MS THABETE: Madam Chair, I understand that, but what I don't understand is that he had said before someone is targeted and actually killed, they would sit down and discuss.

MR LAX: Ms Thabete, his evidence is very clear on this matter.  Unit Commanders and people on the ground, had a general discretion to carry out operations as they happened.  Can you imagine this, say an IFP impi attacks a section of the township, do you think they are going to have a meeting and strategise about what to do in order to defend themselves?  As Commanders they are going to react, they are going to operate, that is how Commanders work.  That is how Units work, people have a general authority, based on that general authority, they take decisions and take action.
	What he said is that he gave a general instruction that (indistinct) should be eliminated.  This Unit in the course of it, they weren't even a Unit, they just happened to be walking somewhere on that day, but they came across somebody whom they felt was an informer, and they decided to deal with him.
	What he is saying in essence is that Radebe as a 2IC, had the authority to make that decision.  He is not saying that directly.  Maybe I am taking it a bit far, maybe that is what you should be exploring.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Thabete, let's assist you, what is your problem?