Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

APPLAUSE: )

MR LEWIN: Mr Isaacs, thanks very much indeed.  Could I ask just a couple of points of clarification.  I am particularly interested in your reference to Dave Sebeko's assassination in Dar-Es-Salaam in 1979.  If you could tell us a little bit more about that and also you mention that the fact that a large number of people had been killed in camps in Tanzania.  Could you give us some more details of that?

HENRY ISAACS: Yes. David Sebeko was assassinated in June of 1979. He was assassinated by the military wing of the PAC, four cadres were subsequently arrested and sentenced to terms of imprisonment by the Tazanian authorities.  I think they were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment.  My information is that one of the persons who served 10 years imprisonment for the murder of Dave Sebeko is currently a sergeant in the South African National Defence Force here.  But David's assassination was part of a plot on the part of the military wing to assassinate the entire central
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committee at that particular time.  These cadres argued spuriously that the liberation struggle in Zimbabwe had not made any progress until the political leadership, consisting of the late Herbert Chepepo and others had been eliminated by the military wing Ozano or Zanla at that particular time, and that the Organisation of African Unity, through its liberation committee had subsequently recognised the military forces as the dominant entity in the Zimbabwean liberation struggle, and they believed that if they did the same in the PAC, then they will equally be granted recognition by the Organisation of African Unity through its liberation committee.  
 The exact number of cadres who were killed in those camps is not known up to today.  One of the persons who was killed and whom I know was killed, and I know personally, was Cohen Ntuli. He was the brother of the well-known sculptor from Swaziland, Petiga Ntuli.

MR LEWIN: I mean, can you put a rough figure on it at all?  Was it in tens or more than that, nearer hundreds?

HENRY ISAACS: The exact number is in the region of 22 in Tanzania and 22 in Lesotho. That is from my research.

MR LEWIN: Thank you.  Could I, before handing back to the Chair, just ask what might seem a stupid question, and it is this; when we are looking at the cases of people, at the testimony of people, we need to in some way or another determine the status of their being a victim.  Now you have mentioned the regime or the system and various names of people who harassed you in the past, Spyker van Wyk and others.  Do you want us to add to that the PAC as an organisation in terms of the harassment which you say you have been subjected to, particularly in the Seventies and
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Eighties?

HENRY ISAACS: Well, yes, I certainly do want the PAC as an organisation added, because there will probably be other individuals who will also testify before the Commission and who will be able to expand on the kind of harassment to which they were subjected as individuals in the organisation.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Other Commissioners will ask you a few questions.  Joyce Seroke? Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: I just have a few questions. You mention that you were banned in July of 1973.  So as to prevent you from giving evidence for the defence in the trial of Barney Puchana. Could you tell me for how long you were banned and did that indeed prevent you from giving evidence?

HENRY ISAACS: Yes.  The banning order was for five years. On the morning of Barney Puchana's trial, when I was due to go to court, the security police arrived at the house where I was living and then took me away.  They prevented me from giving evidence in Barney's defence.  I was kept at Sanlam, at Sanlam security police headquarters in Port Elizabeth for the entire day and it seems that they were waiting for the banning order to be flown from Cape Town. It was then served on me in the afternoon and I was then detained in Port Elizabeth for several days before being transported to Pietermaritzburg.  The term of the banning order though was for five years and it included house arrest on weekends and on public holidays.

YASMINE SOOKA: In your evidence you talk about the fact that the universities, in a sense, during that period, the security branch had complete access to all the universities which
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were traditionally called the tribal universities.

HENRY ISAACS: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Part of, I think the work of this Commission, is to make recommendations to government to ensure that gross human rights violations do not take place again.  I think particularly in the case of the tribal universities, it seems that the - it depended on the political party which was in power, which then allowed free access and students were then subjected to reigns of terror.

HENRY ISAACS: That's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: What would you suggest is a mechanism to ensure that that sort of thing doesn't happen again in the future?

HENRY ISAACS: Well, my own view is that the best custodians of democracy and of human rights in our country will be an educated community that is actively involved in every aspect of the attempts to establish a new democratic order. I firmly believe that the universities should be under the control and guidance of completely independent and autonomous councils or senates, but that there should be representation from the communities, so that the governing bodies of these universities reflect not just the demographics of the society itself, but also the new emerging order, an order in which the values of transparency and accountability are held as top priorities. I think that that is the only way in which the kind of interference that existed in the past can be prevented in future.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also refer in your statement to the fact that in 1978 you were elected to the central committee. Could you tell us how many members there were on that central committee and who they were.

HENRY ISAACS: At that particular time there were 14 members of
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the central committee of the PAC.  The chairman of the central committee was PK Lobaylo.  The other members of the central committee inluded David Sebeko, Vuse Make, Elizabeth Sebeko, Elias Nkludibe, Ingile Mondane, Edwin Mokote ... Nine.  Okay, I do not recall all the names off-hand right now, but what I will do is I will make available to the Commission a copy of the book that I wrote, Struggles within the Struggle. It lists all the names and like I said,  it gives a detailed chronology of the events that affected the movements in exile, and I believe that it will be an important part of the record that you are currently attempting to establish.

YASMINE SOOKA: I will ask you just two more questions, and then if you are going to hand in the book, I don't think we really need to take it further. I think the book will be a sufficient resource base for us then, to explore what you have actually set in your submission.
 Just in terms of the 14 members how many of them were actually assassinated then?

HENRY ISAACS: David Sebeko was assassinated in 1979. Benedict Sondlo was assassinated in 1984. So it is much later.  Vuse Make was with David Sebeko when David was assassinated and he was also the target for assassination.  But he escaped by hiding or shielding behind the refrigerator and the bullets were then reflected by the refrigerator and that was how he escaped.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you tell us what you actually do now?