Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-07

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday it was indicated by Mr Richard that he would like to put some further questions to Mr McBride.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: (s.u.o.)

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with leave of the Panel, may I complete my questioning and then I do have a few other aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Prior.  Yes, perhaps that would be better if you finish yours first and then Mr Richard can continue.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: (cont)
	Mr McBride I need to, just for the sake of completeness, refer to the book "Till Babylon Falls".  Possibly at the end of the day nothing much may turn on it, but there is information I think which requires possibly a comment from you or an explanation from you.  You indicated yesterday that you had the book.  You had consulted with the author on many occasions.  Did you ever at any stage bring to his attention, or to anyone's attention that some of the material in the book was erroneous, factually incorrect, or just purely fiction?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No I didn't bring it to his attention.

ADV PRIOR: I see you have the book in front of you.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I have provided a bundle of extracts to all the interested parties and I do have a photocopy version.  There is one before the Panel.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Sorry Sir did you include page 271 in that?

ADV PRIOR: Yes, 271 is also there.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Obviously, feel free to refer to any other pages in the extract that you would want to bring to the Panel's attention.  At page 225, about half-way through the page - I do apologise, there were only four copies made - there's a portion in quotation marks, it is after the paragraph that says
"Robert could not shake off this feeling of horror.  I was in a state of shock.  Before I was just carrying out an operation.  The effects only hit me later when I was not hyped up, then the emotions came in and I felt bad.  I felt terrible, I felt disgusted with myself and ashamed.  I felt I would never be forgiven."
Have you got that portion?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I have that, Sir.

ADV PRIOR: Do you wish to comment on that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That would sum up the feelings I felt after realising the enormity of what happened.

ADV PRIOR: And that's what you conveyed to the author?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I'm not sure if I conveyed it or someone else conveyed it.

ADV PRIOR: Then the portion in quotation marks
"Before I was doing it for the army, for the freedom of the people.  The very planning and the act of placing the bomb distanced me.  It was mechanical.  It was like the bomb did it and I only pulled the pin.  At the time it was quite practical, something to carry out.  Afterwards I realised the enormity of the whole thing.  The humanness of the suffering came to me.  If they had been soldiers, it would have been a legitimate target.  Civilians were not a legitimate target.  Because they were women, I felt it all the more.  I felt I was stooping to the same level as the enemy.  I was worried all the time.  I was irritable and upset."

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I think there are subtle differences and nuances in the semantics there, which are different to what I am saying now.

ADV PRIOR: But the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr McBride, before you answer the question, I see from what Mr Prior has read out, that this is put in quotation marks.  Was that a quotation given by you to the author?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I don't recall giving the author such a quotation.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  There's just one other portion I wish to refer to, that was at page 134.  It regards the Klein Attack.  The second paragraph on page 134 of the extract from the book is as follows
"Discussing potential targets, Robert had suggested the Casspir, a squat armed patrol vehicle which passed down Oval Road at 10.30 every night.  Instead Matthew and Antonio decided to attack the home of Mr Klein, a local headmaster, whom they regarded as an apartheid stooge."
and so on.  Would you agree with that passage?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Which particular part?  There's a number of statements made.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, shall we dissect it and break it up?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, please.

ADV PRIOR: Alright the first portion
"Discussing potential targets, Robert had suggested the Casspir."

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: The Casspir was one of the targets which we had discussed about.

ADV PRIOR: The spin that's put on it is that instead of the Casspir, which you had suggested, they chose the Klein household?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is not 100% correct.  There were a number of targets.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree with this proposition that Mr Klein could have been attacked at any stage when he was alone?  There were probably numerous situations on which Mr Klein would have been alone, not with his wife and he could have been safely attacked in that situation.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, the difficulty I have with answering that is I could envisage a situation where someone shoots at him, where the people carrying out the attack would be known to the general community in which Mr Klein moves and operates.  They will therefore not be able to retreat successfully after completing the operation.  They were issued with hand grenades, that's what they were given.

ADV PRIOR: There's just two last aspects I need to get clarity on.  I understand fully the evidence you gave yesterday that there were cogent reasons why certain statements and certain evidence was tendered during your criminal trial.  If I may just get clarity on the following aspect.  Was it your own decision to indicate to the court that the initial target was the Hyperama House and Home building and at that very late stage, you had been persuaded to bomb the Why Not bar on the suggestion of Matthew Lecordier?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: What I had known was that, in order for us to stand a chance of winning on extenuating circumstances, firstly I had to discredit Matthew and whatever he was saying and I knew he was under pressure, I knew he wanted to get the thing over with, so I instructed the lawyers to ask him certain questions and asked him in a particular way, so that he would agree, because I noticed he never looked at me in court at all, he was almost like an automaton.  At one stage we even discovered that one of the counsels for the State was visiting the day before and gave him a statement again, even though he was under cross-examination, so I realised that Matthew was telling the story as had been suggested to him, so he wouldn't apply his mind carefully to questions given by my counsel.

ADV PRIOR: I hear what you're saying.  I just, more specifically the version that your initial target on the evening was the Hyperama...(intervention)

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Oh yes, that came from me, all of that, Sir.

ADV PRIOR: And that was not - was that before you went into the trial, or was that on the spur of the moment while Matthew was being cross-examined that was put to him?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: From the time I came out of solitary confinement in November, I had requested a number of books from my lawyer, dealing with legal precedents, what is involved in such a case.  I'd never faced such a case before and the legal principles behind that.  During November I started issuing instructions.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I'm just trying to understand why ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You say that November ...

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 86, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That's before the trial?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that's right.

ADV PRIOR: I just need to understand.  Was it your belief that, if you could attempt to persuade the court to accept that it was Lecordier who had ultimately chosen or persuaded you as the Commander of the unit, to choose the Why Not as a target, then you stood a better chance of escaping the death sentence, is that what...?