Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR VAN RENSBERG: That's right, you can tell them you're giving them a vaccine for yellow fever or whatever and it's the same procedure.  A little injection and that's it.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Doctor just to follow up on that, can you, was this purely experimental, the work that you did on fertility and infertility, or did you go beyond and test it on human beings as well?

DR VAN RENSBERG: No it was never tested on human beings, most certainly not.  It was experimental in the sense it was developmental.  There were many theoretical lines, we had  very crack teams, they produced products which theoretically should work, it doesn't mean to say they will work. The initial studies progressed so far as to try the product in a few baboons, they were injected with this product.  As we expected there was no effect, it seemed to be safe.  But you will never ever develop a thing like this and just go and give it in the population.  What happens if you damage a young foetus and it's not expelled completely?
 The Canadian group had actually started with safety studies in Australia, this I learned in Vancouver in Canada at the congress I went on this thing, and they were doing the initial safety studies on women who were sterile, who could not have babies, for instance.  
 From there on you would first see, is it effective, does it create antibodies, that sort of thing ...(intervention)

DR RANDERA: Sorry Doctor I just want to stop you there because I understand the process that could have taken place, but that's in your own mind, in international norms, I mean we've heard so many stories already over the last two days, where substances were put into beer bottles, were put into chocolates, into tablets, what I want to know is, is there a possibility that with the product that you and Dr Borman were working on, could there have been a possibility that could have been used without your knowledge?

DR VAN RENSBERG: It's a possibility I have considered.  The three vital people involved in it was myself, Dr Borman and a biochemist.  The biochemist is the one person who actually makes the product, she was a brilliant biochemist, she was very good at it, she was the one person in that company who wouldn't touch anything that smelt of a hard project.  On a matter of principle she would not be involved in any hard project.  She said we can fire her if we want to, she will not touch it.  So that was my comfort, apart from the fact that I knew Dr Borman very well, I considered her highly ethical, and not aware of a single instance where she did anything unethical.  She had a passionate interest in fertility and fertility research, she was very good at it, she was a good clinician and still is in fertility clinics, specialising more on the male than the female and I had no reason to believe she would ever have agreed to release the product.

DR RANDERA: Dr van Rensburg, I know that you left the company in 1991 I understand, is that right?

DR VAN RENSBERG: Yes I was demoted November '91 but they kept me there against my will to finish certain vital work that they couldn't do until the end of July '92.

DR RANDERA: Earlier on you told us that almost 66% if I can recall, if I remember rightly,  of the work that was being done was of a toxic nature.

DR VAN RENSBERG: That's right 66%.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell me ...(intervention)

DR VAN RENSBERG: ...as listed here.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell me what, once the company closed down, what actually happened to all these products and experiments that were taking place?

DR VAN RENSBERG: There was furious humming of the shredding machines and stoking of the incinerators and as I said some of the stuff was dumped in the bathroom, cantharadines, this is one of the destructive products they used, they would go to a meeting of the End Conscription Campaign, youngsters and dish out tissues with slogans on them, but in the meantime they had been laced with this stuff.  They are highly irritant but they are also very nephrotoxic, toxic to the kidneys.  I was exposed to this stuff and when it happened I confronted Andre Immelman and he said no he was getting rid of a lot of stuff down the drain and the fumes were absorbed by the toilet paper.  It's a very, very irritant substance, I can vouch for that.
 About the middle of 1991, Dr FW de Klerk had to give his permission for the institute to continue.  The military people were adamant that there's no-ways that we could continue without the permission of the State President, so we were all on tenterhooks, everyone was worried about their jobs, what would he do with Roodeplaat?  And eventually had an information session with him and his decision was that Roodeplaat may continue provided there is only defensive work done and no offensive work.  
 And after that there were some raids, I can't remember who, our intelligence people might tell us, where I think national intelligence or the police were raiding some other military places, they feared a raid and most of this stuff was destroyed.

DR RANDERA: My last question Dr van Rensburg.  We have heard over the last two days from people who were involved in similar companies to yourself and the phrase that seemed to come up repeatedly was this one of need to know basis.  Now in your case, and in Roodeplaat that culture did not seem to exist ...(intervention)

DR VAN RENSBURG: Very strong indeed ...(intervention)

DR RANDERA: Sorry let me finish, because you yourself have told us that you come from a very liberal tradition.  You know you'd been singled out by the Broederbond, but yet when it comes to the work that was being done here you knew about almost everything that was happening, including what was going on on the commercial side.  You overheard conversations where people talked about the use of certain substances.  You knew who the CCB, some of the CCB operatives were.  I am just having difficulty reconciling the two.  On the one side need to know basis, on the other side, in this particular establishment it seemed like there was a culture of liberalism that prevailed.  Did that come with you?

DR VAN RENSBURG: The culture of liberalism is something I worked on and it tended to be there in the top class scientists because that is the way of scientists, the share ideas, they share knowledge.  I will confess, and I am remorseful for it, but I went along with the system.  I had to, to a large extent bluff that I was one of them.  It wasn't very convincing not for very long.  But the alternative was either to be quietly blotted out or to be kicked out.
 Now when they employ you at this place they take over your lifelong pension; they give you a tremendous housing subsidy; they give you a motor car, and they give you a salary that's a little bit more than, not very much more, but a little bit more than what you can get elsewhere, plus you g et perks, expense accounts and so on.  So if I was kicked out I would have lost my pension, I would have lost my house, I would have lost my motor car, and you've got to really start from scratch.  That is a confession I make.  It was a consideration in my decision to stay, and rather in a small way try and neutralise the system from within.  Without I would have been totally powerless.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

DR VAN RENSBURG: Or ineffective.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions that arise from the questions from the panel Mr Vally?  No?

MR VALLY: One very brief one.

CHAIRPERSON: I shouldn't have asked.  Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Why would a chemical biological warfare facility be involved in research into birth control?

DR VAN RENSBURG: Into birth control?

DR RANDERA: Fertility...

DR VAN RENSBURG: One can only assume you want to target certain groups or populations for reducing the birth rate.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Chairman.