Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not stab anybody in the second house because I actually met somebody fleeing and I hit him with a knobkierrie and continued fleeing.

MR BERGER: Was that an adult man that you hit with a knobkierrie?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was a young man.

MR BERGER: But he ran away, he wasn't killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, he fled.

MR BERGER: That's the only person in that house that you saw?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I met him at the gate as he was fleeing.

MR BERGER: How many houses did you enter before you found someone that you could stab?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know how many houses I actually went into because we did not really intend to go inside each and every house but the people we would meet on the streets would be those that we kill.

MR BERGER: But Mr Mthembu, this was late at night already, who were you going to find on the streets?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know, as it was in the evening if the people who were responsible for attacks did not sleep, they actually patrolled the streets at night in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Okay, so the people you were looking for to kill were the people who would patrol the streets of Boipatong at night, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, those were the people, we were looking for the STU's because they were responsible for the violence, the trouble in the area.

MR BERGER: How do you know that all your other attackers, co-attackers were looking for the STU's?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I hope they know that the cause of the conflict was these people who were responsible for the attacks and then they would get innocent people involved.

MR BERGER: Are you telling the Committee that it was common knowledge in Kwamadala Hostel that the enemy in Boipatong, the people that needed to be killed were the members of the STU's, is that what you're saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is what I mean to tell the Committee.

MR BERGER: And the people who sleep in their beds at night in Boipatong, not the people who are patrolling the streets, those are not the enemy as far as the residents of Kwamadala are concerned, is that what you're saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, as far as I can tell, those were not the enemy but because there was already conflict, there was already trouble, innocent people like those got injured.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence, Mr Mthembu, that before the attack, before you left Kwamadala Hostel, there was a discussion amongst the attackers that the people that you were seeking, that you were going to go to Boipatong to kill, were the members of the Self Defence Units, was that discussed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was not discussed but because we knew after our people had been killed in Boipatong, we knew that the people who had to die were the STU's.

MR BERGER: If I understand you correctly, Mr Mthembu, what you are saying is that it didn't have to be discussed, it was known that the people that had to be killed were the members of the STU's correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: And the members of the STU's it was known could be found patrolling the streets of Boipatong at night, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Well then, what were you doing looking in the houses, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I can say is that these people would commit acts and then hide in these houses so that when we approached and they will see us, they will then hide, run away, flee and hide in the houses.  That is the reason why we went into the houses.

MR BERGER: Did you see members of the STU's patrolling the streets of Boipatong that night?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Because they had the information beforehand, it was not easy for me to see them at the time because they had already fled.

MR BERGER: Who had the information?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Can you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: You said because they had the information it was not easy for me to see them - now I'm asking you who had the information?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I mean that the comrades, some of them saw us approaching because they were not asleep, they managed to flee and hide wherever they could and then innocent people would get injured.

MR BERGER: Did you see members of the STU's observing you as you approached Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, as we approached from - there was a group of people of Umzivo Street, there was a fire, I think they were sitting around a fire.  Umzivo Street.

MR BERGER: At which street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Umzivo Street.

MR BERGER: Yes, you say there were people sitting around a fire?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes there was a group of them standing there.

MR BERGER: And when they saw you they ran away because they were members of the STU?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes on seeing us they fled towards the township.

MR BRINK: Mr Mthembu, I'll come back to this.  Let's go back to the houses that you were going into.  Now you told the Committee that you went into a number of houses but that you didn't stab anybody in those houses, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: I'm sorry, I don't think that's correct, Mr Chairperson.  I think what was said he went into the first house, he said he didn't stab anybody there, he went into the second house and as the man was fleeing, he met him at the gate and then that was the last that he spoke about the houses.  He said "I do not know how many houses I went into, the intention was not to go into every house."

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness said and he has just now confirmed again that he went into a number of houses and that there was no one in any of those houses that he stabbed or attacked in any way, but I'll ask the question again.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should begin by asking him apart from the two houses that he had mentioned, did he go to any other houses.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mthembu, you've heard that question?  Besides the first two houses you've spoken about, did you enter any other houses?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not enter any other houses because there was no longer time, sufficient time, to do that because we had to ensure that we returned safely so I don't remember getting into any other houses.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'm sure it's been pointed out to you that if you don't tell the truth, you're not going to get amnesty, has that been pointed out to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I know that.

MR BERGER: Now, how long are you saying you were in Boipatong for?  Five minutes, half an hour, an hour?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know exactly how long.  It was a short time as far as I know, maybe half an hour because there were also police and we were also afraid of the police at the time.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, where were the police?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The police were in the area around the fabrieks, I think it is the National Board Factory and that place is nearer to Boipatong, there were many of these police in their Casspirs there.

MR BERGER: Sorry, Mr Interpreter, could you just repeat that, we can't hear you very clearly, unfortunately.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There were many police near the factory and those places near Boipatong, there were many of them there at the time.

MR BERGER: And those police who were there were in there Casspirs you say?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you knew they were there when you entered Boipatong, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not have knowledge to that effect, I only saw them once we got into Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You saw the police for the first time after you had entered Boipatong, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.