Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] got a note Mr Chairman, was a reference to the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana. It was put to the witness you knew of both Siti and his parents home and the answer was no. And then was the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it was put that there was a sub-file in the file, sub file dealing with the other burning which was put to him - that was put to him that he knew both because there was a sub-file in the file and he said no he didn't know about it, he didn't read about it.
    Right, Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now, Mr Minimgwa you worked with churches as well, isn't it?

MR MININGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And that evidence was lead by Mr Motsamai spontaneously without connecting you to any incident, at page 640 of the record.
    Now, you accompanied Mr Motsamai when he went to bomb the church in Boshabelo, isn't it?

MR MININGWA: I know nothing of such an incident, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it the church or the pastor's house?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, when I refer to the church, I usually am referring to the parish house.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I think it may create the wrong impression with the public and people hearing that a church has been bombed so perhaps we should stick to the correct description.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.
    I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, I made a summary here but there's something wrong with the notes. May I have a moment to try and work out what I was doing here.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR VISSER: Well, let me be of assistance Mr Chairman.  There's no evidence at all before you implicating this witness in that attack.
    Perhaps in the mean time, to be of assistance, -    - please stop me if I'm talking too much, Mr Chairman. you can refer to the application of Mr Motsamai at page 148, paragraph 12 and you will recall that Mr Ngo did not apply for amnesty with regard to any such incident.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I was referring to the wrong part of my notes, Mr Chairman.  The part which I wish to put to Mr Miningwa was that he was present when the clinic of Winnie Mandela was bombed, in fact the house.

CHAIRPERSON: You're putting that to him on the basis of the evidence of whom?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman this is - there is a problem Mr Chairman because Mr Motsamai seems not to agree with me on this aspect and I'm trying to find the relevant passage on the record, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, please stop me if I'm not being of assistance.  It is paragraph - I've got a reference here in Exhibit P30 which mentions the name of Mr Miningwa and it's at page 158 of Bundle A.  I've got a reference here first to the clinic of Winnie Mandela and that's the only reference in regard to anything about Mrs Winnie Mandela, referring to Mr Miningwa, so it's a reference to the clinic.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's this, do you say?

MR VISSER: My note here in Exhibit P30 says page 158 of bundle A.

CHAIRPERSON: My bundle A finishes at page 148.

MR VISSER: Maybe a typing error, Mr Chairman, may I just check that?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, Mr Miningwa is referred to at page 655 of the evidence.

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed.

ADV MEMANI: This relates to the bombing of the clinic, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Kindly repeat the page again, page?

ADV MEMANI: 655.
    Now Mr Miningwa, Mr Motsamai led evidence that you accompanied him to Brandfort when he went to bomb the clinic of Mrs Mandela.

MR MININGWA: I know nothing of that incident, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: He told us that he was with you and Mamome.

MR MININGWA: I know nothing of that incident.

ADV MEMANI: And he also told us that you were supposed to keep watch on any people who might approach the scene.

MR MININGWA: I know nothing Sir, about that incident.

ADV MEMANI: He also told us that when there was an explosion he saw you nearby and you were scared.

MR MININGWA: I know nothing of this incident.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Miningwa, when you heard that Mr Motsamai was implicating you in this matter, what steps did you take to gather evidence that could escalpate you?

MR MININGWA: It was was not necessary to look for something I'd not know.  Where would I look for evidence to rescue myself because I was not there.
    What I can tell you about this is that I heard that such an incident took place, a house or a clinic of Winnie was burnt, not that I took part.
     I know nothing and it was not necessary therefor to gather evidence to come and convince that I did not do any thing.

ADV MEMANI: There are no differences between yourself and Mr Motsamai, isn't it?

MR MININGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And on the other hand, you have not applied for amnesty, isn't it?

MR MININGWA: No, I don't remember applying.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Miningwa, my experience with people who are falsely implicating others is that they are usually minimise their participation in an incident, and here Mr Motsamai attributes himself an active role and yours is relatively minor and somewhat passive.

MR MININGWA: I am suprised Sir, that my name is included, I was not working with Motsamai.  The people he was working with, even the white men he was working with I do not see around here.  He mentioned to me and I was far away from him, this is really suprising.

ADV MEMANI: Do you, by any chance recall any incident where you were in a Kombi with Morakile and Mtyhala?

MR MININGWA: If I was not using Mr Prinsloo's car  at the time - we had one transport, it was a Kombi and all of us would get into a Kombi and be dropped off at our respective homes.  I do not know which occasion you are referring to because if I was not working at night, not using Prinsloo's car, I would get into a Kombi with my colleagues to drop me off at home.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Miningwa, I may have asked you the question, pardon me if I have, were you present on the occasion when Motsamai and others went to Pretoria to consult with an attorney?

MR MININGWA: I was not there, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And did you give a full statement on the day when you went to consult?

MR MININGWA: About the incident that I saw on that page where it is alleged that I took part, I gave evidence, full evidence.  Some of them that might have cropped up there after, I do not know but those who were mentioned, and I saw them on the paper, I gave evidence to that effect.

ADV MEMANI: Now, at the time you went to consult, you must have become aware that it was alleged that you were present in 19 pupils were interrogated and assaulted at Bloemfontein Fountains.

MR MININGWA: I remember well.  Mzuzwana's home was mentioned, Mrs. Mandela's clinic was mentioned  Other incidents I did not see them where my name is  mentioned.
    If I remember well, I heard when we were sitting at the Education Center where Oupa Makubalo said I was present but on the paper I did not see them.
    He said on that day I was on the 5th, 4th floor and I quoted him. It does not appear on the papers.

ADV MEMANI: Did you approach your attorneys?

MR MININGWA: Sir, it was not necessary.  I expected that he would ask me when I'm sitting here on the witness box because in my main evidence there are no allegations at all.  It only appeared when they were asked about the incidents that took place at Fountain.  I really expected you to ask me here.

ADV MEMANI: I just want to make sure if Ngo does not refer to you in his list.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 30, person number eleven.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  Now your name is referred to on page 30 of bundle A as being one of the people who were present when Oupa Makubalo, Baba Kuzela, Minas and others were tortured at Fountains.

MR MININGWA: It's my first time to hear of that incident.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Miningwa, you must have seen your attorneys and they must have put it to you that you have been implicated by Ngo as a person was present during the torture which took place on the 6th of April 1986 at Fountains.