Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 2000-10-09

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.  And at that point in time, Mr Greyling at the Nelspruit Branch was not in good terms with Mr Labuschagne, who was at Middelburg Branch and there was a certain dispute between the two persons and it looked as if Mr Greyling wanted Mr Labuschagne's source eliminated.

MR CORNELIUS: A childish stupid play with somebody's life.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If that is so, that's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you carried out the instructions of de Kock and you would have eliminated him if you were instructed to, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Was the whole operation then abandoned?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: The whole operation was abandoned and we left the following morning.

MR CORNELIUS: Do you know if this operation was cleared higher up than de Kock, or not?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I wouldn't know, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any form of compensation for your acts and your deeds?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Nothing whatsoever.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any personal vengeance against the victim?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Nothing whatsoever.

MR CORNELIUS: And you request that this Committee considers granting you amnesty for your conspiracy to commit murder and all possible delicts which, I doubt if there's any, which might have flowed from this?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.
NO TRANSLATION - TRANSCRIBER'S OWN INTERPRETA-TION

MR MALAN: Just before you continue.  You were on a mission to eliminate a certain  person, whose name you then knew, but you cannot remember it now?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR MALAN: To complete this mission, Sgt Labuschagne joined you?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR MALAN: I assume that he also knew this person?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So he knew who is going to be killed?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why didn't he say to you:  "But it's one of my informants"?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If I can just correct that, Mr Chairperson, if I recall correctly, he did not know this was the person.  We only had the registration number that we received from W/O Greyling and when we found the vehicle at the bar that evening and when we saw the person, I assume that's where he learned that this was the informant.

MR MALAN: Then you tried to shoot him again.  Why didn't he realise it the first time?  Why did you continue to attempt the second time?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I assume that what I'm saying now is that he possible thought that we did not find the right person when he left.

MR MALAN: But he did not tell you that this was his informer, he just said:  "Do not shoot"?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR MALAN: It sounds very strange to me.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Coleridge, cross-examination?

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr Flores, I want to take you back to the Witbank incident.  You stated that you used teams in this matter.  How many teams did you have to conduct this operation?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I only had my team, my askari team and I had two or three people from the Witbank branch with me and we split up into three groups.  It was my vehicle plus my askari team's vehicle, plus the Witbank branch's, if I recall correctly.

MS COLERIDGE: ;   Can you roughly tell us how many people there were?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: In the petrol bombing of the hall itself, we were only two people, but in the whole operation we must have been about, I could be rectified, about 12 to 13 people.

MS COLERIDGE: So only the askaris went into the building?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: And the rest of the people?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: We were about two blocks away in that perimeter area.

MS COLERIDGE: I got instructions from the Witbank Church that there were numerous telephone threats made to that Church.  Do you know of any telephone threats?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's the first word I hear of it, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Excuse me?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: It's the first time I hear of it, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: The threats were that they'll kill them and that they'll burn them.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: The first time I hear of this Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: And that a search was also conducted, the Security Force in Witbank thought that they were hiding terrorists or ANC comrades in the Church, do you know of that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I don't know of that, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Do you know that on a previous occasion, on the 14th of March 86, there was also an arson attack at that hall?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I didn't know, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: That this was actually the second incident that occurred at the Church?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Didn't know about that Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: I just want to place on record, Chairperson, that I was informed that there was some form of coincidence in relation to COSAS members being detained.  The first incident occurred on the 14th of May, March, sorry, March 86 and COSAS members were detained in Witbank on that particular day and that they were having a hearing or a court trial on that particular day, do you know of that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Do not know about that Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: And therefore on the 14th of March, that's actually how the Security Force then attacked the Church.  They could just relate it to that incident and that on the 14th a second incident, the 21st of May 86, that the very same COSAS members were actually acquitted on that day.  Do you have any knowledge of that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I wasn't aware of that, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Now back to the incident.  You said that Mr Rorich reported back to Mr de Kock.  Do you know whether he reported back to him?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If I recall correctly, I was in the office that following morning, Mr Chairperson, when he had made the call.

MS COLERIDGE: And do you know what he had stated to Mr de Kock.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I can't recall what was said, I know it was reported to him.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you - Mr de Kock was actually your Commander, is that right?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: ;   Did you and Mr de Kock discuss this matter after the incident had occurred?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If I recall correctly, when I returned back to the base which was Vlakplaas, I must have reported it because I had to make a report on our three week - I can't get to the word now - deployment, thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: And how many petrol bombs did you throw into the Church Hall?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Well, Mr Chairperson, I didn't throw it, I sent two askaris and I think what I stated, we made between three and four and I presume everything - all of them were used.

MS COLERIDGE: And these petrol bombs obviously had the capacity to actually lower the building to the ground, is that right?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: With the way they stacked the furniture inside, I believe so, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that your initial instruction, to destroy the entire building?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Just to destroy the hall, that's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Because the first incident, they only damaged the front part of the hall.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I'm not aware of that, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Did your members think you were told that the Church Hall was used by ANC members having meetings and so forth, is that right?