Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Thambiso Zakwe.  His application appears on page 211 to 217, under application number AM7312/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zakwe, what language would you prefer to use?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Zulu.

THAMBISO ZAKWE: (sworn states)

MR SIBEKO: Mr Zakwe, do you confirm the ID number that appears on your application, to be the correct one?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you further confirm that the application that appears on page 211, is your application?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Did you complete the application form yourself, or somebody else did it on your behalf?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: (No translation)

MR SIBEKO: So you are satisfied with the contents of your application?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, I do.

MR SIBEKO: You are satisfied that the contents of this application is the true reflection of your application?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, I am satisfied.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, were you a member of the Self Defence Unit at any stage?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Whereabout?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: At Sebokeng.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Unit?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: In 1990.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your Commander?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: When I joined the Unit, there was no Commander.  I was told to establish the Unit and I was given a position of a Commissar of the Unit.

MR SIBEKO: In other words you were a Commissar of the Unit?  Were you a member of any other political organisation at the time?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, I was.  I was a member of the ANC Youth League as an Education Officer.  I was also a Deputy President of COSAS, that is now known as Gauteng Province.

MR SIBEKO: Right.  Will I be correct to say that you are applying for an act or murder and unlawful possession of firearms?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: On page 212, paragraph 9 it deals about the said act of murder and the date that is reflected here is January 1993, do you confirm the date to be the date when you killed that person?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, that is the right date, the correct date.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to say exactly who the person is, the person that you killed?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: The name was Joseph Skosana Dlamini.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind giving us the details of the said act of murder?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: It was January 1993, I cannot remember the date.  It was the first week of January in 1993.  The youth from Sebokeng came, that is where the deceased was residing.  The youth came to me, they approached me, they were very angry because of some activities that were taking place, that had been taking place for a very long time and the deceased was known as an ANC member of which I was also a member of the same organisation.  I was also one of the people  who were in the leadership of the ANC Youth League.
	They came to me and they were very angry.  Some of them were armed with different weapons and firearms.
	They explained to me that they were looking for the deceased, because all the things that had taken place, we were quiet as leaders of the Youth, we were quiet, because of the things that were done by the deceased.
	When I looked at the situation, I tried to calm them down, I tried to show them that the leaders had taken a position that they were going to deal with that particular person.  I told them to leave everything to me.
	After a certain number of days, we would go back to them and give them a report,but because of the fact that they were very angry, they refused to listen to that story.  They wanted to take the law into their own hands without the leaders.
	I tried as much as I could, to convince them to leave the matter with the leaders.  They later agreed.  They gave me a deadline that if nothing happened, they would do everything themselves, because that would show that we had failed as the leaders, the leaders of the ANC Youth League in that region.
	I told them to go away and I promised them that I would come back and give them a report. I  told them to be at the office the following day at about twelve o'clock, midday.  I parted with them, that was in the evening at about six o'clock.
	They were not satisfied though, they kept on complaining.  After discussing that matter with the Executive of the ANC Youth League, I decided that something should be done with the deceased.
	We had to devise some means to eliminate him so as to end all the problems that we had in the township.  Late in the evening, I took an AK47 rifle, I started looking for the deceased.  I went straight to the place.  The deceased died at a place, at a tavern called Culture Club.  I realised that he was there in that tavern and I even asked the people who were with him.  He was with five people in his company and the other people who had just visited the place, the tavern that is.
	The deceased went out of the house.  I shot at him.  I don't know how many times did I fire, but I shot him and he died on the scene.  I went back home.  The following day, we met with ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of that deceased?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, his name is Joseph Skosana Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it is that one that you saw in ...

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes.  The following day in the morning, let me explain this, I left him outside the tavern.  The following day he was found in his home and he was, his body was burnt and the community was there and even his home was burnt down.  On that particular day I had a meeting with the youth at twelve o'clock midnight, in the offices of the ANC Youth League at Zone 12.
	I asked the youth to go and search for the friends of the deceased, to come and discuss with us and discuss what was going to happen thereafter, because we were afraid that there would be a fight, a war at Zone 12.
	Those people who were Skosana's friends, came and we discussed and we requested them to hand over the firearms to the ANC and they should ask for an apology in the community, with regard to all their activities.
	That happened.  After that, there were no bad incidents in the area.  There was peace in the community.

MR SIBEKO: Right, your evidence is that the deceased was also a member of the African National Congress and also a member of the - in fact, let me ask you, he was a member of the ANC, was he also a member of the Self Defence Unit?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, he was a member of SDU.

MR SIBEKO: There were things that he was doing to the community, in fact he was harassing the community.  Would you briefly tell us what exactly did he do.  Do not narrate everything that you know, but briefly?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: He was involved in a lot of activities.  I can mention some of them.  He participated in the killing of the Zwane family at Zone 12, he also played a role in the killing of the comrades and one of the comrades was Daddy Keswa, who was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.  He left the township to stay somewhere else.
	When he came back, Skosana, that is the deceased, said he heard that Daddy Keswa was working with the police where he was, so he killed him on that particular day when Daddy Keswa arrived.  He was also involved in the rape incidents.  He was also involved in the shootings.

MR SIBEKO: All right, what you are saying in essence is, he was using the arm that was meant to defend the community, instead he was harassing the same community with the said arm?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And as a result, the community was complaining to the leadership of the ANC, including yourself, that your member is not actually doing what he was supposed to do, as a result you had to take a resolution or a decision to deal with him accordingly, is that what you are saying?