Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask, we are very sorry that you have not seen this photograph.  It will be very difficult, I mean even if we turned it around, you want to turn, maybe, could you just turn it around, let them at least feel that they saw what you were, or at least tried to see what you were talking about.
 No, I did not say that you could speak.  I did not ask you to open your mouths and speak.  It is an aerial photograph of this area where the massacre happened and Mr du Plessis has indicated that they picked up 400 shells all over the place.  Could you perhaps give us a brief summary of what you said, in English please.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I would like comment in English, the following.  Just a brief summary, is that with regard to the incident, exhibits were found where shots were fired from, from an area of Jongilanga Crescent.  In this area 16 cartridge cases were picked up and I could determine that it was fired in 11 firearms.  I must perhaps mention at this stage, Mr Chairman, that it did come to my knowledge during my investigation that a certain amount of cartridge cases with regard to Jongilanga Crescent, was picked up by the troops.  I have not received them.  So I am not giving the indication here that there was only, there could have been more firearms that fired in that specific area.
 With regard to Fort Hare campus, in this area where line M2 is, I have collected 177 fired cartridge cases which were fired in 42 firearms, firing directions, towards this area to the toilet building, to the stadium, the pavilion on the stadium, I could determine directions fired from there and also damage on the fence.
 Soldiers were also deployed here where cartridge cases were picked up.  I could determine firing in all these directions, shots were fired, struck the trees in this area, shots struck this, one of the walls of the building in that area.  I could just perhaps indicate to them it is the area where the soldier was found.  We have also troops which were deployed along the road from the Parliament to East London.  It is a big road.
 In this area between the lamppost one and four,  18 fired cartridge cases were picked up which were fired in eight firearms.  Between lamppost four and six in this area, 105 cases were picked up which were fired in 19 firearms and between lamppost six and eight, 26 cartridge cases were picked up, which were fired in four different firearms.
 Specifically the areas, the positions here which I am indicating, S1, S4 and S3, that is where grenades exploded and also at S2.  I am also indicating positions G1, G2, G3, G4 and G5, that is where teargas capsules were found.  The last point, P1 is where a Stetchkun pistol was found.  With regard to the area photo plan, here is the stadium, you have got Jongilanga Crescent, the post office here, this is Fort Hare, the Parliament, and here is the road to King William's Town where the march took place.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I am grateful that you have tried to help the general audience.  Denzil Potgieter?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr du Plessis, I will address the questions in English for the benefit of the audience.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: You are welcome sir.

UNKNOWN: Were there 404 spent cartridge cases handed to you?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, I have examined 404.  Some of them I picked up myself, others were picked up under my control and others were picked up by specific persons who handed them in.

UNKNOWN: Of course I understand from what you have said in your evidence, that that is not indicative of the fact that only 404 rounds were fired on that particular day, from rifles.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: What we know is that at least 404 were fired and obviously it was more.  How many more, I don't know whether we can determine it, but it is a widespread area, all the cases could not have been picked up, could have missed them.  The grass was long.  We did a thorough search and then there is also the area Jongilanga Crescent where it came to my knowledge that some of the cases were removed by the troops.

UNKNOWN: Because from a submission that was made to us earlier, the Goldstone Commission has concluded that there were 425 rounds fired.  I assume that must account for the fact that the cartridges that were picked up by the soldiers, must have been brought to the attention of that Commission.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: I am not, I really don't know with regard to that aspect and how the figures came to the record of that Commission.

UNKNOWN: There was also a submission that it is quite probable that many, many more rounds were fired than this approximately 400, 425 that we have heard about this far.  In fact, there was a witness who himself is a person with a military background.  The present Deputy Minister of Defence who testified here, who offered an opinion that to have had 29 people killed and approximately 250 injured, something like even 1000 rounds would not be out of proportion.  Have you got any views on that?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know whether I can really comment on it.  I think there's various factors which we should bear in mind and this is the density of the crowd, the direction of the fired, been directed directly to the crowd.  I think any other amount we can say 1000, 800, 600, 500, it is merely speculation and I think any person can have their opinion with regard to that but as a ballistic point of view and my investigation, I can only say at least a minimum of 404 but definitely more.  But how many more, I don't know if we will ever know, with regard to it.

UNKNOWN: The type of cartridge cases that you, that were handed to you and that were found by you on the scene, were they all of the same type?  Were they all this 5,56mm?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  The ammunition that is being used to be fired in the R4 military rifle.  I brought an example with.  I forgot to take it out just now.

UNKNOWN: Fine.  Now coming to the soldier that was killed, you concluded that it must have been a high velocity projectile that struck his head and you concluded it is compatible with the 5,56mm calibre.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Would that make it probable that the soldier was struck by the same type of rifle that the civilians were struck with and injured and killed.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And the R4, you have indicated, is a military type of arm.  It is used by the military, by the defence force.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So it is likely, it is then probable, not so, that the soldier could have been wounded or struck by one of his own colleagues?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: That is definitely probable.  As a scientific kind of view, I could not ballistically, positively determine that as a fact.  I could not.  There was no pieces found in his skull which was any useful for identification purposes, so I could not link his firearm with a soldier but I think we will have to rely here on perhaps other evidence which perhaps can come forward and the circumstances, but if I have got to compare the injury and the total destruction of the projectile, for instance with, I also did a comparison with a AK47, then I would say no he was not struck by a AK47 bullet.  He was struck by a 5,56 R4 bullet.  Further than that, I cannot assist in this matter.

UNKNOWN: I do appreciate that.  For our purposes of course we, although we must still consider the question of findings, a balance of probabilities would in all likelihood be sufficient for our purposes.  So you would agree that at least on a balance of probabilities one could find that that soldier was killed by another soldier?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Yes sir.