Amnesty Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1999-05-11

ADV BOSMAN: Then in conclusion, Mr Rudolph, I just want to read one paragraph to you from the ruling of the magistrate, and I would appreciate it if you could say whether it is correct or not.  It is on page 187 of the bundle which you received from the Committee.  It is approximately 10 lines from the bottom and it starts with: "It was decided" - I am going to read it to you.
"It was decided that licensed weapons, arms, would be brought with, that doom insecticide would be used as protection against the dogs, that blankets and coats would be brought to throw over the barbed wire, that plaster of Paris arm protectors would be worn to serve as protection against the dogs and that a first aid post would be established in a flat."
Now I am not trying to set a trap for you.  I would just like to know from you whether this is factually correct or not?  You do not have to comment.

MR RUDOLPH: It is factually not correct, but perhaps if I do not comment on that I will not be able to inform you properly but the person I am referring to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You may comment there.

MR RUDOLPH: Thank you very much.  The person who was giving that - who gave that evidence and has been referred to by the magistrate is Mr Stoekie.  That is the man who I told you I have good reason to believe was an agent or an informer of the police in the offices of the AWB and who sent out that story about the lights.  Regarding Stoekie, the following is the situation. That first aid station which was set up or established in the flat was his responsibility but it was an old arrangement amongst the AWB.  The matter of blankets or coats, you know that just as people will not leave their weapons at home they also do not leave their children and in August in the Highveld, I do not know where you come from, but August in the Highveld is extremely cold and this could have been discussed, this matter regarding the blankets and the coats.
	As regards the plaster of Paris arm protectors, there was a man who was not a member of the AWB who was charged because he arrived there with arm protectors which he tried to sell amongst these people and for which we had to accept the responsibility and who Mr Terre'blanche neutralised very clearly during the hearing.  The doom insecticide had never been discussed.
In my plea I said that I would never have approved the use of Doom because I did not think that Mr de Klerk was an insect who had to be sprayed with Doom.

ADV BOSMAN: Was this intended for the dogs?  You would possibly take this analogy further but I would not invite you to do that.  Chairperson, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you found that?  If you haven't, it couldn't have been too important ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: No, I was just looking for the reference in the transcript that dealt with the questions of the lights being put out and Mr Rudolph's allegation that in fact a power meter or something was knocked over.  I don't recall that being a part of the evidence that was led, but it doesn't take it very much further.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sandi, do you have any questions you would like to ask Mr Rudolph.

ADV SANDI: No, thank you Mr Chairman I haven't got any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Rudolph, that concludes your testimony.

MR RUDOLPH: May I just, Your Honour, in the end say that yesterday and today I brought you under the impression that I was not in favour of the government.  It was not a reference to your expertise and what you are doing.  I bend in front of the power of the sword, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terre'blanche, is there any further evidence you wish to give in this, regarding this incident?

MR TERRE'BLANCHE: Mr Chairman, no.  I would just like to add that the putting off of electricity, in no way could the AWB  even in the original court be found guilty of that.  The person charged for that was the Chief Electrical Engineer of the City Council of Ventersdorp, and the allegation was made that at a certain stage he would switch it off.  That is my knowledge with regard to that.  He also had a different defence.  The City Council defended him and therefore I don't think we should apply for amnesty for switching off the electricity.  We really did not do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Rudolph, I should have asked this while you were giving evidence.  If I could just ask you one more question please.  You mentioned that you were injured and that you suffer from headaches and your right arm was injured.  How did that come about, your injury?

MR RUDOLPH: Your Honour, after having passed the blockade and the dogs, I was assaulted by the police with batons and thrown to the ground.  I was then manhandled and that caused the injury.  I obviously also landed on the ground with my head and probably that is part of the headaches that I have suffered at a stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Do either of the applicants, Mr Rudolph or Mr Terre'blanche, have any intention of calling any witnesses?

MR TERRE'BLANCHE: No Mr Chairman, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: No, I do not intend calling any witnesses, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That then concludes the leading of the evidence in this matter.  All that remains at this stage is the making of submissions and then of course later our duty to make a decision.
	I wonder if it would be possible to take any early lunch and perhaps then immediately after the lunch we can then start with the submissions and make the submissions you wish to make in regard to your application.  Thank you.
	We will now take the lunch adjournment and we will resume again in approximately, let's say, three quarters of an hour's time.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Rudolph are you in a position to make any submissions?

MR RUDOLPH: I haven't heard you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to make any submissions now, are you ready?

MR TERRE'BLANCHE: We are ready, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: You are welcome to sit down.