Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

MS LOONAT: Yes Madame Chair, he was acting on instructions but he had reached - there was, as you'll accept a lot of raids, ANC/IFP but my client at this point, the first time that he ever did any criminal act in his life gave up his employment in order now to stay at home and look after his area, taking commands as a martial or whatever his status was in order to protect him and that is when the instruction came about for the common purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you seem to be quite persistent in your wanting to lead that kind of evidence.  We want to simply indicate to you that as far as we are concerned, unless there is a different version, we accept the fact that Mr Ngcobo - I mean Mr Ncishane, was acting under instructions of his commander Mr Themba Ngcobo and that seems to be sufficient for us to be able to apply the requirements of the Act whether he should be granted amnesty or not.  Obviously there is another element of full disclosure, if you so wish however to persist in presenting that kind of evidence you are the person who is leading his evidence in chief, you may proceed to do so.  Just don't waste too ...(intervention)

MS LOONAT: Thank you Madame Chair, I accept that you'll understand that there was a common purpose and that he has made full disclosure as far as he is concerned.  He can only add ...(intervention)

MS LOONAT: You may proceed and lead the kind of evidence that you want to present to us with regard to why he lost his employment and there's probably something that you want to present to us that we are unaware of but if you do so, please just be quick because we don't think it is the kind of evidence that will assist us greatly in coming to a determination as to whether he qualifies for amnesty or not because your evidence, the ambit of the evidence is that he was acting under instructions.

MS LOONAT: Madame Chair, I'll go on, I won't proceed on that one, I just wish to ask ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Will you please press the red button?

MS LOONAT: Sorry.   Mr Ncishane, how do you feel about the crimes which you committed, how do you feel about it today?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I'm feeling very bad now for what I did to these people.

MS LOONAT: What would you like to say to the victims' families if they are present?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I beg for their forgiveness for what I did.  I beg them to forgive me.  It is something I will never do again.

MS LOONAT: So you would like to reconcile with the IFP members, of all parties?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Madame Chair, I have nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: There is one aspect that you have omitted to deal with, Ms Loonat, and that's the act of robbery.  No evidence has been led in respect of it.

MS LOONAT: Mr Ncishane, when you committed - when you went out to kill the two IFP members, why did you rob them and what did you rob them of?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: They were robbed of a wallet which had R30.  We took the money because we wanted to buy ammunition.  It was a wallet and a watch and the wallet contained R30.

MS LOONAT: Was this part of your instructions from your commander?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I will say yes because we wanted to buy ammunition, we did not have enough ammunition.

MS LOONAT: Thank you Mr Ncishane.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

ADV DE JAGER: Did you take the money?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: It's Mr Ngcobo who took the money.

ADV DE JAGER: You don't know what he did with it?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I do not know what he did with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are applying for robbery and you've only mentioned having robbed one of the deceased of a wallet which contained an amount of R30.  Did you personally take anything from any of the deceased on that occasion?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not take a wristwatch?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall that there was evidence in this regard by one of your co-accused, Mr Makatini, during your criminal trial?  Do you recall that Mr Makatini said something to the effect that you had taken a wristwatch from one of the deceased?  Do you recall that?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You dispute that?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I do not dispute that because of the length of time that has passed while I was in prison, I've forgotten some of the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I'm all that I'm saying is would you agree with what was said by Makatini, was Makatini correct or was Makatini not telling the truth when he said you took a wristwatch?  Was Mr Makatini mistaken that you had taken a wristwatch?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the robber that you are - for which you seek amnesty is that of the wallet which contained an amount of approximately R30, is that you are applying for amnesty when you say you robbed?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: I seek amnesty for the political crime that I committed as well as for everything that happened around the crime.

MR MALAN: May I ask him, Ms Loonat, according to the documents before us and the copy of the judgement, there seems not to be a finding or conviction on the robbery charges.

MS LOONAT: I stand to be corrected but I got the distinct impression that he was charged and was sentenced accordingly for robbery?

MR MALAN: Well if you will look on page 79 of the bundle at the bottom
"Accused No 2, you will rise on count 1, on count 3.  Ten years and ten years.  Then accused 3, on count 1, 15 years, count 3, 15 years."
But the robbery charges are listed on counts 2 and 4 and there's not reference to it in the judgement, the judgement on sentence?  So I'm not sure that for some reason that's not within our knowledge?

MS LOONAT: There's no conviction, I beg your pardon, because I obviously misread it because I thought he was also convicted for robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't but he's free to make it.

MS LOONAT: Ja he couldn't remember very well what happened because as I said in the supplement affidavit he has been effected and he wasn't quite sure but he wanted to come with full disclosure and because it was common purpose and the instruction was to steal cash towards, he felt that he should ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There was a statement by a certain Mr Makatini to that effect, whether that was true or not obviously he has not been included in the judgement because there was no conviction.

MR MALAN: May I Chair, with your permission, on page 78 of the judgement of the bundle, the judgement on sentence, the first paragraph there summarises what happens, talks about the three of them, the co-accused, moving as a small band of armed men through an accepted Inkatha area and the first person that had come to be shot at was the witness Zondo and there was fire opened.  He wasn't charged but it seems to me like one act.  Shouldn't that be disclosed?  Did that happen?  Maybe I should put that directly to Mr Ncishane.
	Do you know a person called Zondo that gave evidence at the trial that said you shot at him?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: No I do not remember that person well.

MR MALAN: Well if you follow through, don't you remember him well or don't you remember him at all?  Did you shoot at another person on the way to killing Cele and Mavundla?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: There is one person that we called and he was in a group of four and three of them ran away and that is the person that we shot.

MR MALAN: Then the summary here indicates to me and this is just my difficulty, that you were walking through an Inkatha area, the area where you killed these people was an Inkatha area, is that correct?

PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE: No, the area was divided by a road and we were on the side of the ANC, we were not walking along an IFP area but we did cross the road and went into the IFP area.