Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

JONES JUDA MDLULI: What happened was that Dumsani Dlamini came to us and informed us that the opportunity to acquire firearms to assist defence units has presented itself.  He then told us that there was a certain gentleman by the surname of Luthuli, a Constable Luthuli who was stationed at Ntetwe.  This person had come up with a suggestion of robbing a vehicle that would be paying out some monies.  Mr Luthuli was a member of Inkatha but at the time he was our friend.

MR NGUBANE: Right?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We then agreed that what we are after is the firearms but we were not going to inform Luthuli about that because he was a member of the opposing organisation and he was stationed at Ntwetwe, he worked with the police there.

MR NGUBANE: So Luthuli suggested to you that you should commit robbery and rob people of money, is that what he told you?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did he tell you anything about the firearms?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: He informed us of the type of firearms that those people carry and exactly how many there are that escort the PL team.

MR NGUBANE: Did he tell you where these firearms are kept?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: As far as we knew the police would have the firearms in their possession.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, then you went to the spot where this robbery was to take place, correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct, we did go there.

MR NGUBANE: Where was that?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: It's at Tapuka's Store.

MR NGUBANE: And you arrived there and what did you do?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: When we arrived there it was myself, Lucky Hlengwa, Bheki and Gunuleko.  There were four policemen, one was seated in the vehicle and three were outside the shop.  We then instructed them to drop their weapons.  The one that was directly in front of me, I had pressed my firearm against him on his back.  He tried to turn, carrying an HMC, to fight back.  At that precise moment I heard gunfire which I did not know where it came from.  I then shot at that policeman and then took cover behind a van that was parked on the scene.

MR NGUBANE: The policeman that you shot whereabouts did you shoot him?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: On the head.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know who that policeman is?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No I do not have knowledge with regards to his identity.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know what happened of him or he was merely injured or he died?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: He died on the scene.

MR NGUBANE: But surely in the High Court you must have been told that you had committed murder in respect of a certain person whose name was mentioned, is it not correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I do not remember it being mentioned.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, when you say you shot him on his head did you shoot him on his forehead?  Did you shoot him on his forehead or the back of his head or the side of his head?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: If I remember correctly it was on the side towards the back.

MR NGUBANE: How many times did you shoot him?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Once.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, besides that shot that you fired, did you fire any further shots, you personally?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes, after that I took cover behind a van.  There was then a shoot out that took place between us and the police for quite a while.  At the end two of them fled and one other died on the scene.  In total there were two policemen who died on the scene and two fled.

MR NGUBANE: And were those the two people who were killed at the scene?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What did you remove from the scene?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We removed all firearms on the scene and we saw a trunk that was in the van.  As far as we knew any truck that is in the possession of the police was used for the storing of firearms and ammunition.  We then assumed that there might be firearms or ammunition inside the trunk so we took the trunk as well.

MR NGUBANE: Who actually took the trunk?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: It was Gululeko.

MR NGUBANE: And then what did you do with all the things that you removed at the scene of the robbery?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We took those firearms and the trunk with to K Section and when we opened the trunk there was nothing except for a slab of zinc.  We then left three firearms with Gululeko at K Section as well as Bheki.  Those two were members of the self defence unit.  One firearm was taken by Dumsani Ernest Dlamini to Hammersdale.  As I've already mentioned, there was also fighting going on there.

ADV SANDI: You say you left the firearms with who?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: With Gululeko and Bheki.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  When you decided to commit this robbery were you under command of anyone or any political organisation or local defence unit structure?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No one had given us the authority to go fetch those firearms but we were forced by the situation that prevailed, that is we felt we had to render assistance to ANC structures who were unarmed, defenceless and were suffering attacks from armed people such as Inkatha and KwaZulu Police.

MR NGUBANE: So you are asking that you be granted amnesty in respect of all the offences that have been convicted of and in respect of which you are serving sentence is that correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: According to the charge sheet you were charged, that is the indictment, I think it's page 12 to 13, towards the end of page 12, you were charged with murder in that you killed one Samwe Sipho Hlongwane and murder again, that you killed one Ngongo Jerome Kuzwayo and attempted murder and robbery of various people.  The point I'm making to you is that there are definitely families of these people present here and who may not be present but who are aware of your conviction of your sentence.  Do you have any message for them?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes.  When the incident occurred it was during a time of war.  During that time, the '87, '88, '89, '90, 1991, everyone knows that there was a war going on in all the townships, that is between the ANC and the IFP.  What we did then, that is to fetch those firearms, even though it added up resulting in the death of their loved ones, that was not our intention.  We wanted to help families who died day in, day out being killed by people who were armed and trained as well as the IFP which was armed as well.  Therefore I will say to those relatives please understand the situation that prevailed at the time.  We are now faced with a different situation where we reconciled with regards to past conflict.  I will then ask that maybe what took place, before then, before the present government, led us where we are today so I would ask them to please forgive and forget the past and let us look towards the future.  Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.
	Mr Mdluli, you were a member of the KwaZulu Police?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact in KwaZulu during that time you will agree with me KwaZulu Government was led by the Inkatha Freedom Party, isn't it so?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And the KwaZulu Police themselves had allegiance to the Inkatha Freedom Party, generally?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Generally the KwaZulu Police were aligned to the IFP but it was not everyone but yes, most of them did support the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact your friend who was an Inkatha member, what's his name now?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Constable Luthuli.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, he was an Inkatha member and worked closely with Inkatha and the police, KwaZulu Police?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We knew him to be a member or a supporter of the IFP but we had never seen him committing acts on behalf of Inkatha or for instance killing, murdering people on behalf of Inkatha.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  Now you yourself, were you not a supporter of Inkatha?