Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Mr Goosen to proceed with questions and take your time as you attempt to answer this, thank you.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  I am going to put the questions in English but you may answer them in Afrikaans.  If you have a problem with the English, just say so and I will try to put the question in English. You were the General commanding Spes Forces from 1985 to the end of 1988, is that right?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: The last, it is quite correct, but I started earlier.  I was appointed up to the 31st.

MR GOOSEN: Formally, you were the Commanding Officer from the 1st of November 1985, but before that you were already involved in Special Forces, some months beforehand.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, for the handing over process.

MR GOOSEN: You indicated that when you took over command, of Special Forces the primary function internally in the country, the role of the Special Forces was the collection of Intelligence related to the activities of Special Forces also outside of the country,is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: You have also indicated in the brief summary that you have given of elements of your amnesty application, that under your command that role changed, correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that question, just come again.

MR GOOSEN: Sorry, I beg your pardon, I will repeat it.  Under your command, whilst you were the Officer Commanding Special Forces, the internal role of Special Forces was expanded as it were, and didn't only involve the collection of Intelligence inside the country, but also involved clandestine operations, covert operations inside the country, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: After the expansion of the state of emergency in 1966, the internal powers of Spes Forces were expanded.

MR GOOSEN: That is correct.  You indicate in your amnesty application in fact that you had received an instruction in regard to internal clandestine covert operations to be carried out by Special Forces, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I think I must put this matter in the right perspective.  I was asked to look, I must formulate a plan when the state of emergency should expand, how I could counter this situation, that is what happened.

MR GOOSEN: Yes, that is correct.  And that was in the context of what you referred to as "verskerpte optrede" in respect of the revolutionary onslaught against the country?  Correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct, yes.

MR GOOSEN: Now, you indicate that you received that instruction to devise a plan to enable Special Forces to be of assistance to the South African Police inside the country, who did you receive that instruction from?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: As I mentioned it in my application, at that stage it was the then Head of the Defence Force, General Geldenhuys, he asked me to draw up this plan.

MR GOOSEN: And that would have been a plan as you indicate in your amnesty application, to be of support to the SAP in the sense that Special Forces would engage also in unconventional and revolutionary methods in order to combat the revolutionary onslaught against South Africa, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: Indeed, you indicate in your amnesty application that at that stage the necessity for the use of unconventional and or revolutionary methods by elements of the Security Forces, whether it be the South African Police or for that matter, Special Forces as a component of the South African Defence Force, was accepted and recognised by the command of the South African Defence Force, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I didn't get that one.

MR GOOSEN: Okay.  You indicate that the principle of, that there was acceptance of the principle that unconventional and or revolutionary methods would need to be employed by elements of the Security Forces in order to combat the revolutionary onslaught, against the country?

LEGAL COUNSEL: Mr Chairman, I think his question is a bit vague.  Acceptance by whom?

MR GOOSEN: Perhaps I could quote the particular section and read it in Afrikaans where the amnesty application refers to that.  You indicate "I also received instructions from General Geldenhuys to plan how the Spes Forces  could assist.  At that stage everyone of importance realised that unconventional and revolutionary methods gave the only likelihood of success.  Is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes.

MR GOOSEN: Now, could you briefly outline to the Commission what the key elements of your plan was that you devised then for Special Forces?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: The plan is contained in the application.  I can read it out with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are looking for the ingredients of the plan, if you like a recipe rather than a full explanation and if further information is required, I think Mr Goosen will ask for that.  So perhaps if you can do that in outline form?

MR GOOSEN: Yes, we are not looking for a long, elaborate explanation, we just want to know what the essence of that plan was.  What did it cover?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I can put it in very broad terms.  It came down to the problem areas where the problems were most acute, were identified and these were in the command Northern Transvaal, Witwatersrand and the Eastern Province command.  These were the three problem areas and we decided that I in cooperation with the Commanding Officers of those commands, and the Head of the Security Police for that area would meet and would determine what the targets would be.
 The important targets which are important in regaining control.  From Special Forces a team was sent out to the Security Police in Northern Transvaal and one was sent to the Security Police in the Witwatersrand command.  Together they had to plan to devise our cooperation or support of the police, because we had never done that before and we acted in support of the police at all times and I think this is what you might want.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much General, perhaps I could just run through a few aspects of that.  In essence the plan that you devised was calculated to by having Special Forces assist the South African Police, it was calculated to ensure that the ANC inside the country, the words you used were to totally destabilise and stop" them, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: And that for that reason it would be necessary for the Special Forces to engage in covert or clandestine operations inside the country.  You have indicated the involvement of if you like, the Regional Command structure in the South African Defence Force as well as the South African Police in the identification of targets.
 Is it correct that you indicate that "the revolutionary and covert aspects entailed amongst others (a) ANC members and people who contributed to the struggle, had to be eliminated.  (b) The ANC facilities and supporting structure had to be destroyed and that ANC's activists hangers on and people who supported them, also had to be eliminated."  Is that correct, is that the objective defined for this particular set of operations, if you like?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, that is why I have put it like that in my application.

MR GOOSEN: Once as part of your plan, the Regional Command structures in the South African Police, Security Police involved would be responsible for identification of targets, before an operation, a specific operation was launched, would it be necessary to seek specific authorisation from your immediate superiors prior to the conduct of that operation, in terms of the plan that you devised?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, this question is a question which has an impact on my amnesty application and the various incidents I refer to.  I can answer the question, but then I would expose myself to very strong cross-examination.

MR GOOSEN: Perhaps I can explain the question.