Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, if I may answer to that query, I, Chairperson, you'll remember yesterday, when the chairperson asked me to seek maximum information relating to some of the co-accused of the applicant here at the trial as to the reasons why they were given indemnity, in my report when, after having consulted with the applicant, I gather from them that after this happened, when some of them were given this indemnity, they themselves, the applicant included could not understand the reason why. And as a result of that there was a discontent among themselves and they petitioned, they wrote the Justice Department and the disclosure that is referred here, is the submission that the applicants made to the Justice Department in connection with the matter.

JUDGE WILSON: Well it still doesn't answer my question, should we get hold of it, do they want us, because he has referred to it in his application, does he want us to have sight of it?
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know where that document is, maybe it's lost, maybe we may never be able to find it. Tell us the things that are contained in that document which have not been covered in your oral evidence so far and which are not covered in the documents you have submitted.

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: The first thing has to do with the attack on Bareng Letia by Nzimeni's group.  Baring Letia was the member of the Executive of the African Youth Congress and he later became the executive member of the Executive Youth League after the ANC-.  Baring we took him after having made efforts of having to make peace meetings between us and Nzimeni, because our perception that we were trying to explain to Nzimeni the transformation from SAYCO to African National Congress Youth League. After that we sent Baring to the police station to go and lay charges against this group and he did so and he lay charges against Nzimeni and his group, and no arrests were ever made and Nzimeni and the other people who assaulted Baring.  The second one relates to the issue of Violet.  Violet was a member of ANC Womens' League, she was attacked by Nzimeni at her house.  Apparently if I remember clearly, Violet was pregnant then and after they have beaten her up and harassed her and it seems she got a miscarriage due to that and no arrests were made in respect to that after that event. And due to intervention of Mary Agnes she discussed it with the Lawyer for Human Rights.  After having discussed with the Lawyer for Human Rights that they must try and follow this issue for Nzimeni regarding Violet's issue, two people were arrested, and after that they were given lenient sentences of two years each after all the things that they did to Comrade Violet who was an active of the ANC Womens' League.  2A.	Those/...
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Those are some of the things that I remember clearly that we never showed them in this document. By not showing them we thought that maybe the Justice Department would have forwarded the documents already buffer the Amnesty Committee.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you now satisfied that we have now covered those issues, at least those that you can remember?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Ja I think the one other thing that's important here is that we were not happy to leave our parents behind, our sisters and our brothers.  We were forced by Nzimeni and the situation in the location there that we ran away from our homes to stay in other places.  Mary Agnes' house was our political base.  We couldn't have workshops that were organised by the ANC branch in our location.We could not recruit members to join ANC and as an executive member of the ANC, that was my responsibility of recruiting people to join the ANC. We could not go forward with all these activities because of fear and because of Nzimeni's terrorism because he was targeting activists and he harassed our parents, telling them how much he wants our heads.He went to Comrade Siabongasen, Comrade Frans, Comrade Medhlamini.  We couldn't just go on our own at this age, but I had to have marshals all the time, there was no privacy in my life at all, (..indistinct) activities and other comrades as well. Mary Agnes was working in West Vaal Hospital.  She had to be escorted every day to work to make sure that her transport was safe.  These are some of the things that we covered in our motivation that are not in this briefing.

ADV CHRIS DE JAGER: Did you give evidence at your trial?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I did.

ADV CHRIS DE JAGER: Tell the Court the same story that
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you've told us this morning?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: The thing that we were concentrating in court ...(intervention)

ADV CHRIS DE JAGER: No please answer my question, did you tell the same story or not?  That's the question, yes or no?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes we did tell the Court, but some of the things, they were not relevant to our trial at that moment.

ADV DE JAGER: All I want to enquire whether you told the Court the whole truth or whether told another story, and we're not looking at your guilt or trying to re-try you now, we only want the truth today and we want to know whether the truth you're telling today corresponds with what you said at the trial.

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: In court I explained to them about the role that I played, but I didn't mention that I found myself guilty because of not having stopped the comrades for beating and killing Nzimeni because I was scared that I'd be sentenced and I didn't trust courts at that time.  I saw courts as instruments of the National Party Government. That's how I recognised them. I didn't regard courts at all.  When I appeared in court I was fearing that this National Party Government Court will sentence me.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you tell the Court that you weren't present when this man was assaulted, that you went to Mrs Botman and you gave your watch to her and when you came back he was gone and you couldn't find them?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I did tell the Court that I was there, I was with those people.  I told the Court that I'm the one that I spoke with Nzimeni's mother and I told them that Mrs Botman is opposite Nzimeni's house, I did tell them in court.
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ADV DE JAGER: Now did you go to  Mrs Botman and left your watch there?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: If I remember clearly, yes I did.  I told them in court that I left my watch in Mrs Botman's house.

ADV DE JAGER: When you went back to fetch your watch and you came back and there was nobody there and you only found a person lying next to a Combi later in the afternoon?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I told them so, and as I say, the things that I said in court, I was trying to protect myself fearing that I will be sentenced. I tried by all means that I should be on the safe side.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you represented by an advocate at your trial?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes we had.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you tell him the truth?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes we told him the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: That you were there when the killing took place?  That you watched it, did you tell him that?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I told him.

JUDGE WILSON: And then he led you to give evidence saying you weren't there, you were at Mrs Botman's, is that what you say?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes because we did consult with him and he did advise us what are the things to say so that we should be on the safe side and not be sentenced. We did consult with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Mr Gcinisizwe, in your evidence you testified to the effect that Nzimeni came back in a Combi and threw explosives at Mary Agnes' house.  Did
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you witness this?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes it is so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now can you tell the Committee why was it necessary for the marshals to stay at Mary Agnes' house, the marshals?