Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman sorry. My client has just said to me that he wants to make some correction. I don't know what it is. Could he just proceed to make - can he just make the correction before we proceed with the questioning?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman when I previously referred to all the factors which should be taken into consideration by the TRC, I referred to page 28 to page 49. I've made a mistake there. During the adjournment I had a look at that. It's from page 23 and it says: "... which the actions of the South African Defence Force and it's members should be judged as far as bona fide is concerned." And it continues further on.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) to page 24?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: In actual fact you can take it page 22, paragraph 8.4 to 49. Ja, I think that's even better.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you very much that's useful. General Malan I want to take you to a specific document, it is marked "M" in your bundle.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: (...indistinct)

MR VAN ZYL: "M" for Magnus.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Right, I didn't write it.

MR VAN ZYL: It is, at the top it is: "Strictly confidential, strategy against a counter revolutionary warfare." On page, unfortunately the page numbers are not clear. But it's the third last page, starting with the letter "H" for Harry. And I read that into the record. "Intimidated, should by means of formal and informal policing, they should be neutralised." (...indistinct) steps in terms of and I think that's the "other objectives; departmental activities."
(...indistinct) to the Commission what you understand that to mean?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman I first want to refer to this document. It's not a State Security Council document. It's a departmental document. In other words the Defence Force is providing input to the State Security Council. It will look at all the various inputs, look at all the differences and decide what will be the final document to presented to the State Security Council. And this would have been the final document. Looking at this document, it's only a departmental document. I don't know even whether it was approved or disapproved or amended. I've never seen this document. It was never shown to me and as I'm looking at this document I'm giving you my interpretation. I would say that this is a typical, classically counter revolutionary action which is being compiled here which should be executed. Seen in totality, intimidators should by means of formal and informal policing be neutralised. I would say and I think there was a strategy developed at that time in which it was said that other groups which are against revolution, in other words people who are pro-government should also be supported. And I think it's on that basis that this formulation was done. Or this purpose was determined and on the basis of that approval would be given if it was accepted at the SSC.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) think or that's what you know? Are you speculating what it would be about or do you know?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I'm speculating now for you, for your sake.

MR VAN ZYL: And why is it that you have to speculate?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Well let me put it in this way, I think the need for this is very important. I can't personally remember whether this aspect was discussed, whether it was approved. This was the type of tasks which had to be done and which the government also had to undertake and therefore I am open, ja.

MR VAN ZYL: I put it to you in document in which you have before you which is a State Security Council document. In fact that decision is repeated in that document and is approved by the State Security Council. I don't think we need to go through that. It is in the documentation before you. And I suppose I'd like to ask you, would you be surprised if this was the kind of decision which would be accepted by the State Security Council?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman, in all fairness to the witness can we have the specific approval that's being referred to?

MR VAN ZYL: It's document "N". It's on the, again page numbers are not here, it's the fourth last page of that document. It's marked Roman vii, it's document "N". It's headed: "Strategy against the revolutionary warfare." (...indistinct) number six, it's point six. Fourth last page.

MR LYSTER: Is it "alternatiewe"?

MR VAN ZYL: No the next one, vii Roman "Intimidation by means should be neutralised by means of formalised, informalised policing."

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry I can't follow this. My document "N" is an extract from the minutes of a security council meeting dated the 1st December 1986. And I have paragraph, item six which is underlined or highlighted, which says: "Agenda number five, concepts strategy against the revolutionary onslaught against South Africa number 44."
The document annexure 2 to this minutes are accepted with certain amendments. It's not said what the certain amendments were. (...indistinct) by the secretary of the State Security Council dated the 27th of November 1986. I can't make out whether that was bylaer twee or what it was. Then there's a further report also by the secretariat dated the 27th of November 1986 with a heading: "Concept national strategy against the revolutionary onslaught against the republic." (...indistinct) as it stated in the minutes. It doesn't contain any legend indicating that, that (...indistinct) is bylaer twee. So I really don't know but for practical purposes possibly one would have to accept that number 44 referred to in the decision, minuted decision would then refer to this letter or this verslag dated the 27th of November. And at the same time I wish to point out that we don't have any inclination as to what the "Certain amendments" are.

MR VAN ZYL: (...indistinct) to Mr Maritz. I have a document here which is under the signature of the secretary of the state veiligsheid raad. It says: "To all members of the staats veiligsheid raad," then it says - it's number "N". It says: "Concept nationally strategy against the revolutionary onslaught against the RSA. Guidelines against the revolutionary onslaught against the RSA was decided on the 28th of April, was approved by the State Security Council."

MR MARITZ: Well then that makes it worse because then it can't be bylaer twee because "N" is a document dated the 1st of December 1986. And now apparently to this letter, this number 44 thing was approved on the 28th of April 1986. So I don't, it doesn't look as if the security council was again approving something on the 1st of December '86 that it had already approved according to the letter on the 28th of April 1986.

MR VAN ZYL: Perhaps I can help you.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Because here the thing says -sorry.

MR VAN ZYL: Sorry.

MR MARITZ: The minutes says: "Document annexure two is apposed and accepted with certain amendments "(...indistinct) had been approved on the 28th April 1986 then possible bylaer twee is something other than this strategy number 44. I don't know.

MR VAN ZYL: Sorry Mr Maritz. If you look at my copy there. It's got bylaer twee at the very top on it and it's the same thing.

MR MARITZ: Ah I see.

MR VAN ZYL: It obviously was cut off in the photocopying process on your copy but it's the same, it's exactly the same document.

MR MARITZ: Thank you very much.

MR VAN ZYL: Sorry about that, photocopying. That obviously lead to that. So it's accepted that, that particular which was handed up via the head of the South African Defence Force, then gets translated into strategy document number 44 and approved by the State Security Council, is that correct?
 Sorry is that correct? I was saying you accept that in fact that was approved by the State Security Council?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Sure, if you say so. I accept it.