Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

MR VAN ZYL: He's about - when I saw him he was about 16/27 years of age, he was tall, brownish hair in a middle path, a thin moustache and light in colour, light complex, about 1,82 metres in length and he was thin.

UNKNOWN: Is he one of the people who is giving evidence in the Dr Wouter Basson case?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know.

UNKNOWN: Was he a doctor?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know.  As far as I know and from what I've heard, he was related to the Medical Regiment in the Defence Force.  Whether he was a doctor, I do not know.

UNKNOWN: I'm just trying to understand what's Nick doing at this meeting as a financial person.

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know, he was there.  I did not invite him to the meeting, I didn't do that.

UNKNOWN: So if I ask Staal Burger, he'll be able to explain that to me.

MR VAN ZYL: Probably, yes.

UNKNOWN: So you know of no role that Nick was going to play, apart from the fact that at the end of the day he is the man that handed you the powder that was supposed to be sprinkled over the food?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, let me put it this way, that was the role that Nick had played.  But Nick could have played another role that had him at the meeting at that specific day that could have had something to do with Staal and him or the Co-ordinator and him, but concerning me, I had no other conversation with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the actual acquisition of the pills wouldn't involve payments, would it?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Chairperson, that was part of the structure that had existed and the Co-ordinator knew who to approach to be able to obtain it.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wasn't there in his capacity as a finance man for the acquisition of the pills?

MR VAN ZYL: No, I don't believe so.

UNKNOWN: What did the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, before you go.
	Normally the Co-ordinator would be the person who would facilitate you receiving that stuff.

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR LAX: 'Cause that was the case with the limpet mine in the Early Learning Centre.

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Now what did the man from the Medical Regiment say at this meeting?

MR VAN ZYL: All I can remember is that the person was introduced to me and then after I'd obtained the pills I would eventually give it to him and I know that I had eventually given it to him at a cell meeting where Staal would also have been present and the Co-ordinator would also have been present there.

UNKNOWN: You were trying to establish what was possible at that stage, in other words, you wanted to know from the man with technical knowledge, whether "If I get hold of the pills, can a pill of this nature be manufactured?"

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And he said yes.

MR VAN ZYL: The answer was yes.

UNKNOWN: And how long was this meeting?  Any idea?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know, I can't tell you, probably also an hour, half an hour.

UNKNOWN: The next thing that happens is you get two small white tablets from Peaches in August 1989, and he tells you that these are the pills that Adv Omar uses, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever get feedback as to whether those pills were in fact heart pills?

MR VAN ZYL: I can imagine that it was mentioned to me, but I'm not sure.

UNKNOWN: No I'm just asking in the light of the trustworthiness of Peaches, he might have given you any pills under the sun.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.  No, I understand, but I imagine that confirmation had been given of this, that it was a prescription for some kind of illness.

UNKNOWN: Now Wouter Basson, this Wouter Basson, denies that he attended this meeting that you've just discussed.  Now if you can go to bundle C, page 34.  Maybe while Mr Martini's looking for his bundle, I'll just read you the relevant passage.  This is an Inquiry under the Truth Commission legislation in terms of Section 29, and Mr Basson ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz, is it bundle B?

UNKNOWN: C.

CHAIRPERSON: C for Cat.  Do you want to use this one?

MR MARTINI: I have a bundle B, which comprises - what page of bundle C?

UNKNOWN: C.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 34.

MR LAX: Just so you know what you're looking for, it's a transcript of a Section 29 Inquiry.

MR MARTINI: Very well.  I don't seem to have a bundle C, Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

UNKNOWN: ... Mr Basson is being asked questions by a Mr Khoisan, about this plan.  Mr Khoisan says to him
"To whom did you go to rework those tablets?"
Mr Basson's answer is:
"I wasn't involved, the decision was made and taken further by, I think, Mr Verster.  I'm not sure.  It was himself and someone else.  And the next thing you know, it was available.  I myself didn't hand it over to the members of Region 6.  I don't know who handed over the tablets.  I never saw them and I do not know who handed it over.  I do not know that an effort was made to obtain these tablets, and that's all."
Now Mr van Zyl, you'll agree with me if Mr Basson participated in this discussion and he knew that the man from the Medical Regiment was there and what procedure was going to be followed, this evidence must be untrue.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, but I also have to say that he says in his statement
"I myself didn't hand it over to the members of Region 6."
which is totally correct because I received it.  He's referring in this instance to tablets.  As far as I know he did not handle it, because as I told you the pills that I received I gave to the person from the Medical Regiment and I received the powder from Nick, I did not get it from the Co-ordinator, and that might be why he would have answered the question like that.

UNKNOWN: No, but the essence of what he's saying, he says; "Look, all I know is that an effort was made to obtain these tablets, that's all."  Right, that's his final sentence.  He goes on to say;  "If you ask me about the details, who was involved, I can't tell you anything because all I know is that I think it was taken further by Mr Verster, but I'm not sure.  And the next thing you know, it was available.  He also says he doesn't know who handed over the tablets.
"I never saw them and I don't know who handed it over."
In other words, he's telling the person who is asking him the question, "Don't ask me for details about this incident, about these pills, because apart from what I'm telling you, I know nothing."  Correct?

MR VAN ZYL: I hear what he says and that is why I tell you that I don't find it strange that he would have answered that question like that, because I gave the pills to the unknown person from the Medical Regiment, and that was my evidence.  I received the powder from Nick, I never said that I got it from the Co-ordinator.  So his statement makes sense to me.

UNKNOWN: No, it doesn't make sense, Mr van Zyl ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz, if you look on page 100, I don't know if this would have any bearing on this present discussion ...

UNKNOWN: Of which bundle?

CHAIRPERSON: The same one, I mean page 35, sorry, typed page 100, page 35.  It says
"MR BASSON:   As I told you, I was never involved with the handing over of these chemicals.  I was part of the presentation when something like this was asked for, but the obtaining and how it go to the members, that you should ask them in order to clarify this."
Is that something different?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the point I'm trying to make, if Mr Basson was at the meeting he would obviously know about Nick and the man from the Medical Regiment and the man from the Medical Regiment was going to go and get the pills manufactured.  That's simply the point.