Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

MR RICHARD: Now what did people believe of witchcraft, did they think it was good for the youth league or bad for the youth league?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The youth in general knew that witchcraft was not good because there's nothing that is good that is done by witches.

MR RICHARD: Now why did the youth believe that the witchcraft and witches was against them?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I do not understand.

MR RICHARD: Why did the youth believe that witchcraft was against them and their activities as the ANC Youth League?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The youths in general knew that the witches were against development.  They were actually hindering development.

MR RICHARD: Now I'm going to put a hypothetical proposition to you.  At that time if a sangoma 'mgaka' pointed out a person to be a 'moloi' and that was done without any deaths or reasons for suspicion, would that person who had been pointed out have become a target for the youth to attack?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct, we would attack him.

MR RICHARD: Even though there was no reason to suspect that person or to connect that person with any particular event or death?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes because our understanding is that he will end up killing because he is against development.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have some questions, Chairperson.
	Mr Sekgobela, were you related to Poppy Serani?

CHAIRPERSON: Please could you repeat that name, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Poppy Serani.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the deceased?

MS MTANGA: The deceased yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No, we were just friends.

MS MTANGA: What were the names of the husband and the brother who died, that is the husband of Poppy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The husband was Skopi Serani.

MS MTANGA: And the brother?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: He was Gerani Serani.

MS MTANGA: Were they related to you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No, they're not related.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you friends?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you good friends?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: Can I go on Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may.

MS MTANGA: You've also indicated that Poppy was also your friend?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: Who, amongst them, that is Poppy, the husband and the brother, who became your friend first, who did you know first before the others?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was Poppy.

MS MTANGA: The first meeting that was called at the chief's place when you were going to discuss the mysterious deaths in your area, who called that meeting?  Was it the youth of the community or was it the ANC Youth League?   Who called that meeting?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I will put it this way.  The ANC Youth League held a meeting to discuss this issue but now because in those rural places that are controlled by chiefs, we are not allowed to hold such meetings.  That is why we ended up going to the chief to ask for a meeting.

MS MTANGA: How many people attended the ANC Youth Leagues meeting before you approached the chief?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There were many of us but I will not be able to say the number of people who attended.

MS MTANGA: Were there 20 or were there 50 people, just estimate.  Were there more than 50 or where there less than 50 people?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would say there were more than 200.

MS MTANGA: What was your position in the ANC Youth League?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I was just a follower.

MS MTANGA: Would you say you were one of the active supporters of the ANC Youth League in the area?  One of the most active?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I would say so but because I would here from people saying that I was active.

MS MTANGA: At the meeting when people were chosen to represent the youth, when you were going to see this sangoma, can you give me the names of the people who were chosen to represent the youth?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was myself, that's Golden Sekgobela, Lucas Masete, a third one was David Mkwana, Thomas Shaye and Emma Makalela and Mabori Sigodela.

MS MTANGA: On page 21 of the bundle ...(intervention)

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The other one was Mogikledi Sekgobela.  Those were the people who represented the youth.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sekgobela, there's something that concerns me in this matter.  The people who were selected to go and kill Poppy Serani, it was yourself, Mampoti Lucas Sekgobela, was
this Mampoti a relative of yours?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: How was he related to you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: My father and his father were brothers.

MS MTANGA: And how are you related to Mampoti Sekgobela?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Our father's were brothers as well.

MS MTANGA: David Mgwane?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We were not related.

MS MTANGA: And on page 21 there's a statement by Mthabesheng Judas Sekgobela.  Do you know who that is?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Mthabesheng?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do.

MS MTANGA: Is he relative of yours and if so how is he related to you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was Mampoti's brother.

MS MTANGA: He made a statement to the police, that's the statement that appears on page 21, this was made on the 29th October 1991, where he said that he heard from Eric and Lucas that you had asked them, that is yourself, Holiday Sekgobela, asked Eric Sekgobela and Lucas Sekgobela to accompany you to your sister's place.  At your sister's place ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, just stop there.  What's your comment on that?  This is on the night of the killing.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell him again please Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I am saying to you Mr Sekgobela, according to the statement made by Mtabasheng to the police, he states that Eric Sekgobela and Lucas Sekgobela told him, that is they told Mtabasheng that you, Holiday, asked them to accompany to your sister's place.  What is your comment to this?

CHAIRPERSON: On the night of the killing.

MS MTANGA: On the night of the killing.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I do not agree with this statement.

MS MTANGA: He further states that when the three of you got to your sister's place, you caused them to inhale some muti.  Do you recall this?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No, I do not remember that.  What I remember is that every time when I visit my sister they used to accompany me and they would also visit my sister alone.

MS MTANGA: Did you take any muti before you went to kill Poppy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No.

MS MTANGA: Did you at any stage play football with Mtabasheng?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No.

MS MTANGA: Were you ever a football player?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I did.

MS MTANGA: But you never played football with Mtabasheng?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When I was playing football Mtabasheng was still young.

MS MTANGA: On the day you were instructed to go and kill Poppy, where were these instructions given to you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That day when we were given the instruction we were at the football ground, I suppose.

MS MTANGA: Were these instructions announced loudly to yourselves or were you instructed or called aside and told to go and do this?  How were they given to you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: These instructions were loudly announced to everybody who was present at that meeting.

MS MTANGA: When was this meeting?  The date of the meeting?  Can you recall?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I do not remember the date, the day and the month I do not remember.

MS MTANGA: Could it be that you were told on the day you went to call Poppy or how many days before.  Can you recall how many days before you killed Poppy were you told to go and kill her?