Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

LEON A MAREE: To receive business or to get business from those countries.   Because I didn't have people on the grassroots level, I don't have experience, so I wen to the Chambers of Commerce in these countries and they referred me to companies, gave me names and contracts with companies I can do business with, so I can then choose whom I want to deal with.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And this was in the furthering of your business in terms of the blue plan?  You had no illusions that you would then, or the fact that you could move freely in those countries, that it can be an advantage for the CCB?

LEON A MAREE: That is correct, that was the purpose thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say it was the purpose thereof, when you were to focus on Natal, ...

LEON A MAREE: To give me freedom of movement, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I mean your function in the CCB wasn't it to focus on KwaZulu Natal?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So in what way would it be beneficial to the CCB if you could wander around freely in Namibia or Zambia or Swaziland or Botswana?

LEON A MAREE: Not necessarily to do that.  On the course we were told that we must access freedom of movement wherever we want to and that's what I tried to do there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And then perhaps just to clarify the point which was touched upon by the Chairperson a few moments ago, if I understand you correctly, these activities of yours, the establishment of Lema, the exports, the movements in the African countries, all of this took place in January, February, March, April of 1989, the initial months?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, the first few months of 1989.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now as a result of this successful establishment of Lema and the exports particularly, was there any movement in the CCB as a result of this, especially with regard to its functions?

LEON A MAREE: There was another company which I established, yes.  I also established Lema in Windhoek, in Namibia.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was it a branch of Lema?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, it was a company on it's own, it was Lema, Namibia.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was it also an incorporated company?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: In Windhoek?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And regarding these activities of yours, was there ever any change with regard to the CCB's plans with you?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.  Later I was called in by Mr Burger and I was asked whether I would be interested in working in Germany.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And then with regard to Africa, can you give us an indication of when the Germany offer came about?
If we could just establish the course of time.  We've examined January to April, that was the African situation and then emanating there from, did you follow any courses or anything like that?

LEON A MAREE: Out of my own, I followed a business management course because I was a layman, I didn't really know much and I needed to learn more.

MR P DU PLESSIS: At which institution?

LEON A MAREE: At Executive Education.  It was a very basic Management course.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Who paid for the course?  The CCB actually?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, the CCB.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And this question that you would focus abroad and ultimately in Germany, was this your own initiative or was it from the CCB?

LEON A MAREE: From the CCB.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And was this based upon your successful activities in other African Countries, as you have just explained to us?

LEON A MAREE: I think it was based upon my blue companies which had been successfully established that they functioned efficiently.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was your function then at that point when you were asked to focus or concentrate on foreign countries, was your focus still specifically on KwaZulu Natal in the sense that it was your job?

LEON A MAREE: I was told to work in Natal, but I viewed this over the long term and I thought that I should first establish a sound basis.

MR P DU PLESSIS: That would include Capall?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The company that included Capall?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, it gave me the freedom to move to Durban because I had to work in Natal.  I had a reason to go to Durban without any questions being asked.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now the establishment of blue plans and the establishment of a credible front for the CCB, was this a sort of crises management which was executed over the short term, or was it a long term plan?  What was your perception?

LEON A MAREE: It was my perception that it was a long term plan, that it had to be done proficiently.  That is what I tried to do.  I tried to establish a sound basis.  I viewed it in the long term and I was also told that it was a long term thing.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you were told so?  Why were you told so?

LEON A MAREE: I was told so by Mr Burger, Mr Verster and during the course.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was any pressure exerted on you to deliver so-called production with regard to the projects and execution of such projects?

LEON A MAREE: No, it was said that this was a significant phase, the establishment of an efficient blue plan.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You see, because questions have been put here, among others, by the Chairperson that it seems somewhat difficult to understand that the person Chappies Maree, as he is known, is in disfavour with Mr Slang van Zyl with regard to production.  It would appear that you were there for nine months, and with the exception of Gavin Evans, nothing happened.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, it must be so, we had different working methods.  My blue plan entrapped me in the sense that I found myself in a situation for a number of months where I didn't know anything about business, but I had to deal with businesses and staff members and I was caught up in the whole idea of running a business, rather than delivering production.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Later we will deal in specific terms with Gavin Evans, but it is common cause that in approximately March 1989, an instruction came your way with regard to Gavin Evans?

LEON A MAREE: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And that you indeed executed your instruction with regard to that.  It is not common cause as such perhaps, but you could perhaps inform us regarding this.  What was your precise instruction?

LEON A MAREE: I was given a document, or at least a document was shown to me by Mr Basson and I was given an instruction to trace Gavin Evans' address and his place of employment.  I had to try and trace him between these two.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Very well.  We will deal with the details later.  Did you do so?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, I did.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you sent the information back?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, I gave them feedback.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you continue with the project?

LEON A MAREE: No, I didn't.

MR P DU PLESSIS: It is on record that Mr van Zyl ultimately received an order to execute a project regarding Gavin Evans.

LEON A MAREE: I understand that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you involved in the execution of that project in any way whatsoever?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: As I've said, we will return to the details of that later.  Why were you not involved?  Why was it taken away from you?

LEON A MAREE: Because I must have taken too long with it.  It wasn't that it wasn't important to me but I was caught up in the blue plan business and the establishment of these businesses, so I was more in Natal to establish Capall, than what I was here at that point.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you told what you were supposed to concentrate on when the Gavin Evans project was taken away from you?

LEON A MAREE: What I had to concentrate on?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes what you were supposed to do.

LEON A MAREE: In Natal?

MR P DU PLESSIS: No, in general.

LEON A MAREE: I was involved with the blue plan.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Very well.  So were there any problems in the CCB with regard to the fact that you had to continue with the blue plan?