Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the next amnesty applicant is Mr Johan Tait.

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: (sworn states)

MR MALAN: Thank you, you may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tait, are your full names Johan Hendrik Tait?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Tait, please have a look at Volume 1 and please go to page 226.   Is it correct that you have applied for amnesty with regard to this incident on page 226 in Volume 1?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the correctness of what is embodied here as you will elaborate thereon?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You do not want to add anything as to what appears on page 226, 227, 228, is that correct?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: In this instance you reply in regard with the incident where people were killed in Swaziland?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Before you departed for Swaziland, and with you I mean C1 and other members of C1, you were at Island Rock, is that correct?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you there hear from your colleagues that there was an incident at Piet Retief?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You, yourself were not involved there?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Were any particulars given to you with regard to the operation and we have heard here of weapons that were planted on people who were unarmed, did you receive any detail about that at Island Rock?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No, I did not have any detail about the operation.

MR BOOYENS: During discussions at Island Rock, was it mentioned that there might be a possibility of a second operation?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then, after you departed from Island Rock, certain of you, was he Major De Kock at that time?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Major De Kock gave you an instruction to remain at Piet Retief?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And from some of the Vlakplaas contingency, you, Mr Martiens Ras, Mr Botes from the Security Branch at Ermelo and another member from Vlakplaas, we will get to his name soon, were given an instruction that you had to go across the border to Swaziland?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What did this instruction entail?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: This instruction entailed that people would come into the country from Swaziland and that we had to go across and the people would be helped across and the two people who would go to the car, should be eliminated.

MR BOOYENS: And as you understood your instruction, they had to take the people across the border first, that is now the insurgents and the people who assisted them, who had returned, those had to be eliminated?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You went across the border into Swaziland?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: It was during the night?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You entered the area of a foreign country, did you realise that you, if you were caught, you would encounter problems because you were on foreign soil and you were armed?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you know that if you had killed people on the Swaziland side, it could have been heard and you could have been caught, and you would not enjoy the protection of the South African Police because you were on foreign soil?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you realised that it was a dangerous mission?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: But you did not question Mr De Kock's instructions and tell him that you did not want to do it?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And for which reasons were you prepared to become involved in this operation?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I felt Chairperson, that we were in a war situation against the ANC trained members.  I regarded it as my objective to do what I do, because it was in the interest of my country.

MR BOOYENS: The people who assisted the insurgents to come from Swaziland to South Africa, did you see them, regard them as part of the enemy?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So were you satisfied that in the circumstances which reigned, although it was wrong and it was a crime, according to you in the war situation, it was morally justifiable to act in such a manner?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So you then did cross the border and a vehicle approached?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You have heard the evidence of Mr Ras that the vehicle had stopped about 100 to 150 metres away from you, you heard him say that?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Please tell the Commission what you heard at that stage and or had seen when the vehicle stopped?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: When the vehicle stopped, we heard the boot opening and we heard firearms being cocked Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: What type of weapons did it sound like?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The deduction that I made Chairperson, was that it was AK47 rifles.

MR BOOYENS: So it was assault type automatic weapons, that sound when it is cocked?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You say you thought it was AK47, it was the weapon that was usually used by the enemy forces?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Could you hear how many weapons were cocked, how did it sound, or are you not certain?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Chairperson, it must have been at least four, it was a few weapons.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, did the persons move away from the vehicle?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: They moved away from the vehicle Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And according to Mr Ras, you moved closer to the vehicle?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And you set up an ambush?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: What was the purpose of the ambush?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The purpose of the ambush was as soon as the two people who would return, would be eliminated, as soon as they returned, they would eliminated.

MR BOOYENS: The other person from Vlakplaas was Mr Paul van Dyk, the name I could not get?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, how far from the vehicle did you wait for the people?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: According to my judgement I would say Chairperson, it could have been 15 to 20 metres away from the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Did you hear the persons returning?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, we did Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And what happened next?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The instruction was Chairperson, if the persons get into the vehicle, we had to start firing.  The persons were however not yet in the vehicle and Mr Van Dyk started firing.  It sounded to me as if they were firing on us, and we immediately all started firing at the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: But the fact whether shots were fired at you or not, would it have made a difference as to what you would have done?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Was there anything according to you that any attempt would be made to arrest these people, to catch these people?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Not according to me Chairperson.  We would have wiped them all out.  I am stumbling over the word.

MR BOOYENS: After you ceased fire, what happened?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: We moved closer Chairperson.  I found a Makarov on the scene on one of the persons who were shot.  The vehicle was shot through the petrol tank and it was set alight and then we left the scene.

MR BOOYENS: Was it necessary for you to leave Swaziland as quickly as possible?