Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: He was the one asking him questions, as well as he was interpreting to others. I don't know, but he was asking him directly those questions of interrogation.

ADV VISSER: Let me ask you this.  Were there many people around in the area, in the vicinity, that could, if they wanted to, they could see what was going on there where this interrogation took place?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't say there were many people, because that would exceed 100, but I would say there were a few people around.

ADV VISSER: Were there Defence Force personnel present?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know when you are asking about soldiers, but what kind of soldiers are you talking about?  There were three Black people who were talking a language that I didn't understand.  I asked the other one because he said to me - then he said Whites are going to give you a house in town, he was using Zulu language.  Then I was able to see that they, this language, he was not using the proper Zulu language.  So those were the three people, Black people I saw.

ADV VISSER: So your answer to the question is that there were at least three Black members of the South African Defence Force on the scene.  Am I correct in assuming that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say there were members of the South African Defence Force because they said they were from Phalaborwa.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  And they could see what was going on where the wounded person was?  If they wanted to look they could see?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what could they see?

ADV VISSER: The question is this; if they wanted to observe they could see what was going on there where the wounded person was interrogated, Mr Chairman.  There was nothing preventing them from seeing what was going on there.

CHAIRPERSON: What was going on?

ADV VISSER: Well, what was going on, is Fuchs shot the man, in terms of this person's evidence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But is that ...

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: But those ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry, Mr Sehlwana. Mr Visser, is that his evidence?  I understand his evidence to be that there were people gathered around the injured person, lying on the ground.  So maybe you should clear up whether the other people could also see in view of the fact that people had gathered around the injured person who was lying on the ground.

ADV VISSER: Well, that's precisely my last question, Mr Chair.  Was there anything that stood in the way - that stood in the way of these three Black Defence Force - soldiers, as you call them, to see what was going on there, where they were interrogating this wounded person?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: What I explained is that the three Black soldiers were on my side, just behind the combi on the right-hand side.  I don't know as to whether they were able to see on the left-hand side where the injured person together with the police were. I would not be able to testify to that regard.

ADV VISSER: Were you also on the right-hand side of the combi with them?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Now you make me retract or regress, because you said after the incident, I was on their right-hand side. When the people were crowding the injured person, as to whether he put himself there or he was put, I went to that place. I don't know as whether they were able to see or not. I was not able to know that.

ADV VISSER: Were you standing with them or were you not?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Which people?

ADV VISSER: The three Black soldiers.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: After the incident I stand together with them for a while, on the right-hand side of the combi.  Then later I went to the person who was laying on the ground, who was covered by the police.  Which truth should I explain?

ADV VISSER: All right, let me ask you this question, Mr Sehlwana.  When you saw Mr Fuchs shoot the wounded man, are you now saying that the Black soldiers could not see that?  Is that what you are saying?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know as whether they saw or didn't see, I saw him, but I don't know as whether those three soldiers did see when he was shot.

ADV VISSER: Were there also White soldiers there on the scene?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They were putting on camouflage clothes. I wouldn't know as to whether - the people who were there were mainly White, except the three soldiers who were there. I would only know the soldier by his brown uniform.  All of them were wearing camouflage uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: So your short answer - well, your answer to this question is simply that you can't say, and I wonder why you keep - firstly, you keep on qualifying your answers and you preface your answers by long introductions, which are unnecessary in my view, instead of just giving the answer, and why you don't just give your answers precisely as they should be given.  You keep on saying well, as I have already explained.  You keep on saying well, do you want me to keep on repeating myself. I just don't understand why you just cannot give your answer without these long introductions, which are just consuming our time.  And secondly, it would do you a lot of good to relax and stop yourself from being excited, listen to the questions carefully and then answer them.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Thank you, Sir.

ADV VISSER: Let's make it simple.  Did you - you knew the other members of the security branch who were on the scene, didn't you?  You knew them.  You gave them names in your application.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I knew them.

ADV VISSER: Those who were not members of the security branch who were there, must have been soldiers, don't you agree?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know how to put it, because I said those I was able to identify were those who were there and those I knew.  Then after the incident I left. I wouldn't be able to explain whether other people were members of the South African Defence Force or not.

ADV VISSER: No, Mr Sehlwana, I am not going to allow you to get away with that answer.  Were there people other than security police personnel on the scene?  Apart from the three Black soldiers.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I only saw members of the security branch, except the three Black members of the South African Defence Force.

ADV VISSER: Now will you please, you were there, will you please explain exactly how Fuchs, according to you, shot the wounded man.  What did he do?  Did he kneel down?  Did he pick him up, did he step back a few paces, what did he shoot him with?  Tell us, how did this happen.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Because I was there and I was standing there, some of us were standing but Fuchs was kneeling down, asking him questions and was putting a tape next to his mouth, so that he should be audible on the tape.

ADV VISSER: And what was the condition of the wounded man?  Were his eyes open?  Was he breathing normally?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, he was breathing normally.

ADV VISSER: And his eyes, were they shut or were they open?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't remember well, Sir.

ADV VISSER: How close were you or how far were you from him when the shooting took place?  Give us an indication.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That person was surrounded yes where I was pointing, and the people were surrounding him in this way. I wouldn't be able to identify the people who were crowding him, but whilst he was interrogating, interrogated, I was observing the whole process and even when he was shot I was looking.

ADV VISSER: Yes, and you demonstrated ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Visser, let us have that distance?

ADV VISSER: About two paces, Mr Chairman?  I would suggest. I don't know if my learned friends agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Two paces, I think.

MR BLACK: Two to three paces.

ADV VISSER: My learned friend suggests two to three paces.  Can you remember how many people were standing around this wounded man?  More or less.