Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I asked Charl Naude for what purposes he neededthe memorandum and he answered that Special Forces had targetedRibiero or had identified him as a possible target.  I told himthat if they had identified him as a target, they surely had tohave information of their own and why did they need a memorandumfrom me?   He replied that they only
2. wanted /...
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wanted to verify the information to ascertain whether we had thesame information as what they had so that he could hand in thereport or present a report to General Joubert, his CommandingOfficer.   The moment he mentioned the word "target"I realised that this was a terrorist(?) operation.  I indicatedthat I would make available the applicable file but that theywould have to draft the memorandum themselves.  I must mentionthat there was no mention of Mrs Ribiero.   I then instructedCaptain Hechter to keep an eye on a member of Charl Naude's staffwho drafted the memorandum personally.    Hechter informed meat a later stage that the Special Services requested him particularyCharl Naude, or Charl Naude personally and one of his staff persons,A Robin, to assist them in their planning with regard to the eliminationof Dr Ribiero.   Hechter kept me up to date with regard to theirplans.
 I was therefore aware of the operation since it was a, or sinceI suspected that it was a terrorist operation I did not interferewith the preparations any further.   Subsequent to the event,after the act had been committed, I heard from Captain Hechterthat two black Angolan men who had been flown in by Special Forcesfrom somewhere in the then South West Africa, that these two Angolanmen had shot Dr Ribiero and his wife.   Subsequently I also hadbeen informed or I heard that Brigadier Basie Smit of the detectivebranch and that he had determined that Noel Robie's(?) vehicle,which I must mention was registered in Noel Robie's name althoughit was a SADF vehicle, that Noel Robie had picked up the blackAngolan men from somewhere after they had shot the Ribiero's andthat he removed them from the scene of the crime.   Basie SmitI believe had
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determined from Leyland, who manufactures the Landrover, thatthis particular vehicle was in fact sold to the SADF.  After Ihad heard this, General Joubert of Special Forces phoned me andrequested me that Captain Hechter and myself would attend a meetingat their headquarters.   At this meeting the following personswere present, General Joubert, Colonel Joe Verster, CommandantCharl Naude, Lt Col Charl Naude, and an additional person whomI am unable to identify.   General Joubert informed me that BasieSmit had determined that the Landrover did belong to the SADFand that Noel Robie was in fact in command of the vehicle andhad driven the vehicle.   He requested me to, not to assist BasisSmit's investigation and in fact to ruin it one way or anotherand I told him that I would do whatever I could in this regard.  
 The following evening I received a message at home from BrigadierSchoon that the Commissioner General, Johan Coetzee, would bevisiting me the next morning or that he wanted to see me the nextmorning.   Early the next morning before I was able to go to headoffice, Captain Hechter phoned me and informed me that GeneralJoubert had visited General Coetzee the previous evening and thatthe matter was discussed at that meeting.   Subsequently I wentto Brigadier Schoon who took me along to General Coetzee's office.  General Coetzee asked me whether I knew anything about the Ribieromatter, I told him that I did and I also told him that this wasan operation of Special Forces.    He then informed me that GeneralJoubert and General Gleeson the previous evening had visited himat home with regard to the Ribiero, or to the Ribiero's death.  He then asked me why I was co-operating with the SADF and Itold him that
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Brigadier Schoon had given me instructions to co-operate withSpecial Forces and that Schoon had in fact claimed that GeneralCoetzee had given him this instruction and Brigadier Schoon didnot deny that he had done so.   General Coetzee then took theinvestigation away from Basie Smit and gave it to Brigadier VanWyk, he tasked Brigadier Van Wyk with the investigation.   Asfar as I can remember there was a later provisional investigationin which Noel Robie did appear.   Noel Robie was then, it wasthen said that he was not guilty in any way, or blameworthy inany way.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you personally aware from whom, where andhow a decision was made to eliminate the Ribiero's?

ANSWER: I am not aware of this but I can say that CharlNaude informed me that he had to do the preparations for GeneralJoubert.   I would be of the mind that the Ribiero's were on theterrorist(?) priority list.

<UNKNOWN>: General you would not know exactly who madethe decision and who exactly gave the instructions?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, on page 132 in the second paragraphyou say that General Joubert had asked you whether you could notin one way or another destabilise the investigation of BrigadierBasie Smit.   Did you do this or were your efforts in this regardto remove the investigation from Basie Smit to Brigadier Van Wyk,or do you not know?

ANSWER: I could not do anything to counter the investigationof Brigadier Basie Smit, it was simply impossible.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier do you know in what activities theRiviero's were involved exactly?

ANSWER: Dr Ribiero was a very active activist for theANC,
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he recruited MK members for training abroad and he also providedmedical assistance to terrorists and activists.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you know where Dr and Mrs Ribiero died?Do you have any knowledge of the death of the Ribiero's?

ANSWER: Yes I do have knowledge of this.

<UNKNOWN>: With regard to the political intentions ofthe deed, could we go to page 135 at the top and there we havethe general justification with regard to which you've alreadybrought testimony with regard to eliminations in general.   Thenon page 140 could you present to the Committee as of the secondparagraph
  "The context within which this occurred was against thebackground of daily unrest, violence and intimidation.   It wasthe purpose of the ANC to make the country ungovernable as partof the political resistance against the State."
Then the fourth paragraph:
  "I was only in a very limited way involved in this matterand had no particular purpose with my activities.   It was inthe context and against the background of the struggle of theState against the ANC and liberation movements."
The next paragraph:
  "I gave, I had no direct instructions with regard to thisoperation.   The eliminations of the Ribiero's must be judgedagainst the background of the political struggle between the Governmentof the day and the freedom movements, liberation movements, andthat it was necessary to eliminate those activists responsiblefor violence, intimidation, unrest and destabilisation."
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Brigadier, the last question, will Captain Hechter be able togive us greater detail with regard to this operation than yourself?

ANSWER: He knew everything with regard to the planningof this matter.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION