Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

ADV GCABASHE: The motor vehicle that was taken at the Bahai Church, who would that have been given to?   Properly speaking in terms of the structures and the way the units worked, who were they supposed to give that motor vehicle to, and anything they collected at the church?

XHOLILE TJABANE: According to the armed struggle if a person had, if they had repossessed something they would have supposed to have gone to the camp command and surrender whatever they found there.

ADV GCABASHE: Now it would appear that this is the same vehicle that was used in the Willowvale attack, yes? - from the evidence before us.

XHOLILE TJABANE: That's why I'm saying that they were doing this on their own.  I was not aware of the Willowvale incident, I was just arrested and I didn't know anything about that.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just put your arrest in context for me.  Are you saying at the time of the Willowvale incident you were under arrest?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I just saw the police coming to me and they arrested me and they said that there were people saying that I gave them an order to go to the police station to get firearms.

ADV GCABASHE: You were arrested, were you detained for any period of time?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I was detained for two months if I'm not mistaken.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm now trying to put into context the Nahoon, Da Gama, Highgate incidents because it would appear to me that these incidents occurred after Willowvale, would you agree with me? - just from what we have before us.

XHOLILE TJABANE: They happened before the Willowvale incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying that the Willowvale incident, TNT and Kid were not present, because I know they were killed in the Da Gama incident?

XHOLILE TJABANE: TNT had already died at the time of the Willowvale incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Just help me here, I may be repeating myself.  So you are saying that from the evidence before us Willowvale happened after Nahoon, Da Gama, Highgate?

XHOLILE TJABANE: The Willowvale incident was the last incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, sorry.  I seem to recall that list of incidents was compiled and it was handed up at the last hearing in April or May, may I just confirm that?  I'm unsure of the exhibit number or whether an exhibit number was given to that list.  It was a chronological list of all the attacks purported to have been carried out by APLA in the East London area during the, I think it was during that period 1992/1993/1994.

ADV SANDI: I confirm that we did get the list but I do not have a copy with me.

CHAIRPERSON: I have a list that's headed
"APLA Cases"

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It ends with an attack on the 14th of February 1994 at the Crazy Beat Disco.  I don't think that can be the list that you were referring to.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I just thought it may be of some assistance ...

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, wait a bit, wait a bit, there's another page.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, to the extent that it may well be relevant and important to the Committee to have a sense of when the Willowvale Police Station attack occurred, may I be permitted to possibly just make a very quick enquiry to that end.  I don't think it would take very long to get that information.  And to that end, if no-one has any further questions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mean information from outside here?

ADV PRIOR: Outside, yes.  I would require possibly a very short adjournment to do that, but I will do that obviously at a time when everyone was finished with their questioning of the witness.

ADV GCABASHE: Chair, in fact there's just one other question I did want to put to this witness.
	On page 367 of the record of these proceedings we have Mr Mbambo's evidence that he knew you before the Bahai incident.  He says on this page:
"I know him from a long time back.  He used to take soldiers to my place who came to undertake operations beside."
Well, people who came to his place to undertake operations.  Do you know anything at all about this?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I don't know anything about that.

ADV GCABASHE: You don't know Mbambo from whatever time in Mdantsane, that you might have spent in Mdantsane?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I didn't meet him in Mdantsane.  I knew him after the Bahai incident.  That was the first time I saw him, I didn't know him before.  Even though I was in Mdantsane I didn't meet him there.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just ask one thing, Mr Tjabane.  Were you there, were you present when Mr Ncamazana and others were told that the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I gave instructions and there was a meeting and they were told in that meeting that the armed struggle has been suspended and the member of intelligence and reported back to me that they had told the forces that the armed struggle had been suspended because we were preparing for the elections.

ADV SANDI: When subsequently Mr Ncamazana and his group told you that they had carried out the attack at the Bahai Church, did you report that to anyone in the command structure of APLA?

XHOLILE TJABANE: In the members of the High Command of APLA, I tried to tell them that there was an attack in Bahai and I had told the forces that we were preparing for elections so such things were not allowed.

ADV SANDI: And who were those people?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I told Letklapa.

ADV SANDI: And what was his reaction?

XHOLILE TJABANE: He asked me if I had sent the message that the armed struggle was suspended and then I told them that yes, I had told them that instruction.

ADV SANDI: Did he say, did Mr Letklapa Mpahlele say any steps were going to be taken against these people for having carried out this operation at a time when the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: He told me to look at this matter, I must make sure that they do not repeat such an operation because the armed struggle was suspended.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR LAX: Who was the camp commander?

XHOLILE TJABANE: It was Pama.

MR LAX: Is that his "chemoringa" name or what was his real name if you know it?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, it was his "chemoringa" name, his real name was Eric, but I don't know his surname.

MR LAX: And who was your regional commander?

XHOLILE TJABANE: It was Wele.

MR LAX: Now if my recollection serves me well, one of the applicants said that you were seen driving round Butterworth in this Jetta after it was handed to you, on many, many occasions.  What do you comment about that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I can't even drive, so I didn't drive this car.

MR LAX: No-one was driving in while you were in it?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I was not even interested in that.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?
"I was not even interested in that."

XHOLILE TJABANE: ...(no English interpretation) ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just wait a second.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that what in fact you said was that you didn't get into it at all.

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I didn't get into it.

MR LAX: After the further attacks that took place, the other three attacks after this Bahai matter, did you hear about them?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Like which one?

MR LAX: Well the Nahoon Dam attack, the Highgate Hotel attack and then the Da Gama attack.

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I did hear about the attacks, but we didn't recognise those attacks because the armed struggle had been suspended at that time.

MR LAX: What were you told about those attacks?  Did you get intelligence reports, did you read it in the media?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, the intelligence told me that they heard from, they read from the newspapers that certain areas were attack and there were people who were not at the camps at the time, there were people that were not seen at the camps.

MR LAX: So you put two and two together did you?