Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: We were going to use the road from Roedtan to Marble Hall and then through Settlers to Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: With petrol, what were you going to do?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Because Morapapa said that I should leave everything in his hands concerning the petrol and the transport, so I looked up to him to make arrangements for petrol.

MR SIBANYONI: And at that stage you were just taking them back to Alexandra?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: You were no longer busy with PAC activities, or APLA activities?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: We were still in the APLA activities because we were going to Johannesburg and return to Pietersburg from time to time, so we were actually in APLA activities.

MR SIBANYONI: But on that day, were you not on the way to drop them in Alexandra?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Like the first applicant said, Morapapa was from the Northern Province, but the three of us were from Alexandra, so all of us, including Morapapa, we were going to Alexandra.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard Mr Mhlongo when he testified say that the intention of the unit was to conquer the Northern Province, take it over, did you hear that?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that also of you - that was your intention as well, you identified with that aim and objective to take over the Northern Province?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo said well it was just the unit that was going to do that and it was going to be a long process, bit by bit, slowly, one step after the other gradually recruiting people, doing operations one after the other, did you hear that?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with that?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes, I do agree with that and I would also play a very important part in those activities because I schooled in Northern Province and I understand the language there, so most of the people I know in that Province, so I would be very helpful to them.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said that you knew that the date for the new elections were the 27th of April 1994.  Now were the four of you intent on conquering the Northern Province between February and the 27th of April 1994?  Did you intend following the objective as laid out by Mr Mhlongo, to carry on after the elections with your endeavour to take over the Northern Province?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Like the first applicant has said, even Morapapa was not doing things that he himself thought about, he was in contact with the leadership.  I did not know some of our leaders, so we would get information from him and instructions from Morapapa.

CHAIRPERSON: He couldn't have been too well in contact because at that stage the struggle had been called off.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: He was able to meet with the leadership because I remember one day I took him to Turfloop because he said to me he was going to phone the leadership.  Those are some of the people that I've never met.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever, any questions arising?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: No thank you, Mr Chair, no thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Masil, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson at this stage I'll call Col Poni to the witness stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Col Poni, can you - am I correct to say that at the present moment you are Officer Commanding in the Thohoyandou Military Base?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Positive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Col Poni, am I correct that you are a former APLA cadre?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Col Poni, do you know the applicants who have just testified before the Committee?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: ;   I know Zweli Mhlongo because I was his Political Commissar in Tanzania.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you know the person who is known as Moses Motapo or Morapapa?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: I know him very well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How do you know him?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: ;   He was an instructor in the camps when I was still a Political Commissar and when I became a military attache in Harare in 1993, he was already inside the country, so he was - time and again he would come to us in Zimbabwe and we'd consult.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Col Poni, you have heard what the applicant, can you tell - you have already indicated, I wanted to ask that question what office were you holding within APLA at the time in 1994.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: 1993/94 I was a member of APLA High Command and also a Military Attache in Harare until October - sorry until July 1994 because I was there, I never came until July.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you tell the Committee about whether you knew what was the mission which - whether Morapapa or Moses Motapo was given any specific instruction inside the country?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: In his specific case, mostly he was deployed within the Transvaal machinery, operating in the Johannesburg, Gauteng, Alexandra area.  In this area we had a guy who passed away in an operation by the name of Moss, I have just forgotten his surname but he was Moss.  He passed away in one of the operations here and then there was a gap here, there was no Commander in the specific area in the Northern Province per se.  Then he was identified through also with interaction with the Transkei internal APLA Command that he be removed wherever he was, so that he should come this side in the Northern Province to establish APLA structures in terms of training, resources, that was in 1993.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have heard the applicants, they told the Committee that part of their mission was to rob, if I may use your word - you were not using that word, you were using the word repossession, yes - was to repossess and what you have heard the applicant telling the Committee and what was done by, under the command of Morapapa or Moses Motapo, was it in line with your instructions, or in line with APLA and PAC at the time?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Well we can go into ...(indistinct) in terms of robbing and repossession, what I believed in and I still believe what we have done was correct, was the repossession in terms of the political understanding I have.  He was not out of line in terms of what he was doing because his specific instructions were to establish the command, APLA's Command Structure in this part of the world and also it is a fact we believed in terms of being self-sufficient, so where he could also organise resources, which we normally refer to as repossession, so he was not out of line.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now the Committee knows that there was a specialised unit, repossession unit, which was headed by Tabelo Maseko.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Beauty Salon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Code name Beauty Salon.  Now, why was this unit not used in this case?  Why was Mr Motapo used to ...(indistinct) both the offensive and in the repossessing side?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: In this specific area, particularly in the Northern Province, we honestly speaking, we never had a very strong structure here APLA-wise, that is why he had sort-of a double type of an agenda, not having to be specific, so he had to establish a unit and also to make the machinery to be self-sufficient, hence he was also in a way sort-of autonomous in terms of fund-raising, if I may say so.