Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: It is important also to say that to register the presence in the minds of people away from them, it becomes easier.  It becomes easier for the enemy to conceal, however, it becomes important for the registration of the presence of Units of Umkhonto to be known to people.
	It is in that context of struggling to popularise our presence and also send the message home that people would see that there is war in the country going on.

CHAIRPERSON: But you would have attained that either way not so?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: We didn't in Katlehong where there were hit in particular in an isolated area.  The enemy concealed and it spoke about some terrorists who have shot and the report was very flimsy basically in regard to that.  They always found a way of explaining the failure on the part of the ANC or its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What you are basically saying Mr Sigasa ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: May I interrupt you Honourable Committee Members, I have an indication from the applicant that he wishes to use the loo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: There is only one more question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Will you take a question which in a way is - will you be able to take that or do you want us to adjourn immediately?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Oh no, we can.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay.  What you are basically saying is that you selected Wimpy as a target, simply because it would facilitate your objectives of making your presence felt by the regime because it was seemed to be a sitting duck, it was vulnerable as opposed to the Police station.  Is that what you are saying?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: That is what I am saying, that it served two purposes.  One, hitting the Security personnel, but also publicising the ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, and you would be able to attain both objectives because Wimpy Bar which was frequented by the Security Forces was also a vulnerable entity as opposed to a Police station?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, they were vulnerable in that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sigasa.  He is excused.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry Mr Chairman, I would like the Committee's indulgence, I have a few questions for the applicant, purely because I received new information this incident, which I think is highly relevant that must be put before the Committee.  If you would bear with me Mr Chairman, I would like to ask a few questions, and maybe make a few comments.
	Some of, well, we are in the process of verifying the information, but I think the information is highly relevant to this hearing.  If you would allow me Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why has it only come available now?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the information was not available to us when this matter was investigated.  After speaking to more of the victims appearing here, and attending the hearing, it came out that actually as far as the victims are concerned, that certain information must be put to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it as propositions then.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you proceed Mr Steenkamp, may we ascertain that we have now been able to take proper and full instructions from the victims?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, to start off, I would like to read from a newspaper clipping and then just a comment of the applicant, if needs be further information will be at hand, and if needs be, people will be called to testify to this.
	According to a newspaper article Mr Chairman, I might add this is an article that is written apparently as article on a statement that was made by the ANC earlier this year about this specific incident and with your indulgence Mr Chairman, I am just going to read a specific paragraph.  It is dated Friday, 6th of February 1998, and it deals with this specific incident, the Wimpy bomb blast in 1988 and just for the comment of the applicant, I am going to read the specific paragraph.
	This document will be made available to you Mr Chairman and copies to ...

ADV MOTATA: Mr Steenkamp, for the record, from which newspaper is that article?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry, it is from the Benoni City Times, dated Friday, 6 February 1998.  I am going to read paragraph 3 Mr Chairman.
	The ANC statement said the Wimpy Bar operations were carried out by Umkhonto weSizwe members, but due to confusion within the organisation, the attacks were not in line with party policy.
	It explained that the operations were launched after the ANC decided to take the armed struggle into white areas, but that the party had not intended this to include purely civilian targets.  Mr Chairman, with your permission I will hand this document in, preliminary as Exhibit A.  If you would allow me Mr Chairman.  I will make copies available for everyone.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon, it must be Exhibit B.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, if you would allow me to come in here, I have not had my learned friend give us the author of that statement and who in the ANC may have made those utterances and we would appreciate getting that for him to be able to respond properly.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we are in the process of tying to obtain the original statement from the ANC office.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, does it matter who the author was?  He has been asked if he can make a comment about what was written there, if he can't he can't. If he can, he can.

MR KOOPEDI: I will say with respect, that I got an indication from him that he does not seem to be able to understand what that is about, but he wanted to know he we know who the author is, so that he could make an appropriate comment.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen carefully then.  Here is a report in the Benoni City Times, dated the 6th of February 1998.  The relevant paragraph which Mr Steenkamp wants you to listen to and perhaps comment on, I am going to repeat.
	The ANC statement said the Wimpy Bar operations were carried out by Umkhonto weSizwe members, but due to confusion within the organisation, the attacks were not in line with party policy.  
	Are you able to comment on that or not?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I am able to comment.  First and foremost, I indicated or I said in my submission or our submission, that it has never been a policy of the African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe, to target civilians.
	We did not target Wimpy as Wimpy for the sake of the lives of whites, we didn't.  I think conveniently here we did not see the point, or hear the point that we were putting forth.
	In fact the people who were meeting in Wimpy Bar were not just ordinary Policemen.  Benoni Police station, the Special Branch Headquarters of the Special Branch in the East Rand.  In fact in terms of the reports that we received, they would meet as the top brass even other counterparts from other Police stations as well.
	So, the attack on Wimpy we must emphasise, was not an attack on Wimpy because it is a restaurant to the vulnerable civilians.  It wasn't.  It happened to be hit because of the nature of the target.
	As we said, it is not just ordinary Police, that is why I said to us that one life was critically important, because it had a demoralising effect on the part of the Security personnel.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are saying, what is contained in the newspaper report, you agree with?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't agree with it?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No.  And in fact to make one further comment, the ANC does not always you know, communicate with the media, its people through the media primarily because there is latitude.
	A reporter can report the manner in which he understands and give his own or her interpretation.