Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-24

WITNESS:   I think I am in a position to do that because all these things happened to me, but I am going to have a problem in remembering all the dates.

MR LAX: As long as you can try and - because what happens with so many things is they get mixed up one with the other, and it gets a bit confusing after a while.

WITNESS:   There are some the things that trouble me and they disturb me, especially the one that was spoken by Methana.  It is true she was very young, and the way she put it here on the stage she did not put it thoroughly.  At that time I was the leader because they had their trust on me, and such things trouble me.  At times I feel like my body - my life is not important than other people's lives.  Even today their life is still very low.  Some of their problems I take and make them mine, and I do not consider my problems.  Please try to - I am that kind of a person.  I talk this and I forget about the others.  I have been in many leadership positions, and the ANC came into being and it was totally a new thing again.  It really frustrates me too, and I get confused at times.  But some of the things if you can indicate then I will tell you everything.  I have got a lot of things to tell.

MR LAX: I think we've heard much more than you told us in your original statement already, and I think rather than cover new ground now let's rather get it on a statement properly, and then maybe we can, with our investigators, speak to you and clarify some issues.  So I think it's time we should stop, and I'd like to thank you so far for everything you've told us.

PROF MAGWAZA: I will start by referring to what you have just said, that sometimes you think more for other people than for yourself, and in that sense I would like you to help Lifo's sister regarding the statement.  I think the statement can be rewritten regarding all the information leading to his death, and the fact that he was actually an activist, he was just not a criminal.  So one that you could do is to help her with writing the statement since you have all the information.  Do you understand what I am trying to say?

WITNESS:   I understand.

PROF MAGWAZA: And secondly, you said the police labelled you as an informer.  What was happening at that time?  Why did they label you as an informer?

WITNESS:   They came to me.  First they said I should turn my back against the people I was leading, and when they said that they wanted the people I was leading to perceive me as the collaborator with the police.  And I was also going to be arrested, but without any reason, but the people I lead were the ones that were going to be arrested.  They thought I was very faithful to the conclusions and the resolutions of my organisation.

PROF MAGWAZA: And then you mentioned this place where they said you went for training and firearms.  What's this place they were talking about?

WITNESS:   I went to Soweto to visit.  There was one person who was a policeman.  I do not know should I call him an undercover policeman, but he was with me from Bethulie.  When we arrived in Germiston we took different directions.  Maybe at that time this person thought I was going somewhere for training.

PROF MAGWAZA: Lastly, I think you are just one of the few young people who have experienced a difficult situation, and yet you have been able to express it so well that you are beginning to understand the suffering and the pain you went through as a young person.  I would like you to tell us what you think can be done for the young people, instead of expectations for the young people who, like you, who fought so much for the struggle, and some of them lost opportunities, and probably we need to integrate them and help them with regard to their future.  If you could say in a few words what you think should be done for people like you and others as well.

WITNESS:   You are really asking me a difficult question, but I will try in short to give you what I think.  As a young person, I think as young people we have aims that we want to fulfil, because we go to school to reach a certain point in life, a point where parents could not take us to.  If the Commission can meet with the people who suffered, for instance the children at Lifa's family, they became a community problem, not because they are dull in school, no, but nobody takes care of them.  If such people can be taken care of, especially when it comes to education, they should become what they wanted to be.  Because we also had desires in life.  We want to become professionals.  I have got just one parent, and I realise that life is difficult when you work as a contractor, when you work at the municipality, but as a young man, as a young person, you become very conscious when you see a successful person, and you want to follow in his footsteps, and if you get that chance you will definitely use that opportunity.   Can the Commission please take us back to school.  I think South Africa can change.

PROF MAGWAZA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: I want also to say that you are a wonderful young man.  When one reads the trauma you have undergone one wonders why you are still so articulate, and it shows that indeed if you were not traumatised, tortured, you have the signs of a person who would have been a great leader in our country.  And what impresses me is that you have not given up.  I see in your statement here that you still want to study further, which means that you are not a defeatist, you have the goals about yourself in life.  What I will just ask you, what do you want to study?  You say that you want to study further.  What do you want to study?

WITNESS:  There are two things that I would like to achieve in life.  The first one, I wanted to be a journalist, because most of the time the truth does not come out in the newspapers and in the television.  What we were fighting for we have now, but just a little.  I wanted to be a social worker, to work with the people, my people who were left behind by their parents.  These are the two fields that I want to pursue.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope the media people have understood your gospel, what you are saying about the media.  Anyway, thank you very much.  All these things will be investigated.  There is something very mysterious about the farms in this country.  So much is coming up now about what was happening in the farms, and I think we need to uncover all what was happening in the farms through our investigations.  Thank you also that even though they wanted to blackmail you, calling you an informer, that was the strategy of dealing with those who had gifts of leadership, and I thank you that you have not given up, that has failed, you are still what you are.  Then again I want to repeat what Ilan Lax has said, that you must rewrite your statement.  There is so much in it, in your statement, that if you can put all the things you have said your statement is going to help us in many things.  And just as I have said that there are the statement-takers even here.  You could leave this place having given another version of the statement.  There are statement-takers, as I say, that they are the people at the back who would be taking the statement.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: The next witness is Moses Mathumbule Matiohi.  (Pause)  I greet you, Moses.  How are you?

MOSES MATHUMBULE MATIOHI: I am fine, and how are you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I am also fine.  Thank you for presenting yourself to tell us the stories about your suffering, but before you can tell us my colleague is going to make you take an oath if you so wish.

MOSES MATHUMBULE MATIOHI: (Sworn, States)  (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Moses, I am going to ask Professor Magwaza to help you as you tell your story.

PROF MAGWAZA: Good afternoon, Moses.

WITNESS:   Good afternoon.