Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: If De Kock or Marthinus Ras had told me 
beforehand that there were going to be children in the house 
and that we were going to shoot them, and if he told me I 
had to do it, I would have told them I won't.  But as I have 
testified I would still have gone with.  I am sorry about 
these children who were shot.  I don't know, I don't even 
know how old they were. I also don't know whether or not 
they gave the terrorists staying over there that night, if 
they gave them food. I didn't know anything beforehand, but 
as I have already said if they had told me that I was to 
shoot those children I would not have done it.

UNKNOWN: Are you telling us that the killing of these 
children was uncalled for, according to you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is possible.

UNKNOWN: Are you also asking for amnesty as far as the 
death of the two children is concerned, not so?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  Because after I had heard 
that there were children in the house, and that was after we 
had crossed the border again, after we were back at our 
vehicles in the Republic, we were talking about who did 
what.  I just heard that the children were sleeping. Up to 
today I do not know how old they were.  I do have a problem 
with that but I apply for amnesty for them.  Because 
afterwards we all know the law.  I associated myself with 
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UNKNOWN: 89

UNKNOWN: their death and therefore I am as guilty as the person who 
shot them.

UNKNOWN: Now if you are asking for amnesty in respect of 
the death of these two children, what political motivation 
do you attach to the death of the two children?

UNKNOWN: As I have said, they could have favoured 
liberation movements, they could have helped these people, 
given them food.

JUDGE WILSON: They might three and four years old, as far 
as you knew, how can you make speculations like that?

HASSAN MALL: I honestly think that you should avoid 
speculating to that extent.  You have no idea as to whether 
they were infants or what.  I think the answer should really 
be just exactly what you know and not what your conjecture 
is, please.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, were you advised at any stage of the 
ages of the children concerned when you discussed the 
incident?  On your way back you were told that the children 
had been killed.  Were their ages indicated to you?

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you bother to ask to see whether they 
might have participated?

UNKNOWN: I never asked.

UNKNOWN: May I continue, Mr Chairman?  Thank you. I 
haven't heard the answer to my question.  What political 
motivation do you attach to the death of the two children, 
if you were "vereenselwig" yourself with what the people 
did?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, this home belonged to their father, 
Mr Kahn.  This house was used for terrorists.  The children, 
I can't speculate, but they were under the influence of 
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UNKNOWN: 90

UNKNOWN: their parents.  It doesn't matter how old they were, they 
were part of the operation.  Their house was blown up.  The 
aim was to destroy this place, as I have said, to eliminate 
terrorists and to prevent them from using this as an
entrance route, and that is why they were killed.

UNKNOWN: I won't pursue that because you are again 
speculating as to what you think was the position.  Let us 
go back to the Kahn family, the husband and the wife.  Were 
they labelled or were they investigated and proved as being 
activists in Botswana?

UNKNOWN: As I have already said, they were - it was the 
security branch of Western Transvaal and specifically 
Zeerust, Capt Marthinus Ras Jnr was working in that area at 
that stage.  They would have made sure by means of source 
reports that the people who were doing business on those 
premises, favoured liberation movements and helped them 
financially, that they received food, they received 
information. I accepted this and I accepted that this place 
was used for that specific purpose.

UNKNOWN: I don't want to believe that you were told or 
instructed by Eugene de Kock, and others, Willie Nortje, 
that come with us, we are going to do an operation in 
Botswana and you were not told as to the specifics and as to 
what has been investigated and found before you could go 
with them. Is that what happened?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, as I have already testified, we 
were told that the place was an entrance route at places 
where terrorists could overnight, where terrorists were 
helped.  They received information there, information was 
transferred there, and it was an operation.  At Vlakplaas I 
never worked with files. I was a foot soldier. I was in a 
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UNKNOWN: 91

UNKNOWN: war against liberation movements for the Government of the 
day.  I accepted that since these orders came from the head 
office, that they would have made sure that this information 
was correct.  It was not just simply decided we are bored 
and therefore we have to go over the border and destroy the 
house.  It came from the top. I believed that they knew what 
they were doing. I never doubted the orders that came from 
the top.

UNKNOWN: Let me confine it because whenever I ask a 
question and then you go very wide on my question. I will 
confine you to what I want you to tell me, to tell this 
Committee.  Was the Kahn family eliminated because they were 
activists or terrorists in Botswana or because they were 
housing terrorists in Botswana?

UNKNOWN: They were aiding, helping terrorists. I do not 
know to which party they belonged, but according to me, if 
you helped a terrorist, you do conform yourself to the 
struggle, to the liberation movement.  They were activists 
against the South African Government.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that may be so but helping a terrorist or 
an activist doesn't necessarily mean that you are also a 
terrorist or an activist.  Is that not the position?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, I see it differently. If you 
helped a terrorist movement at that stage you were in my 
books, also part of the struggle and a terrorist.

UNKNOWN: Let me take you back to the Ribeiro matter, I 
think the same facts in the Ribeiro matter would also come 
in here.  Yes, I am told you were not involved in the 
Ribeiro matter, but you were present when the evidence was 
given and cross-examination was done on this Ribeiro matter. 
 That day, it was established that Dr Ribeiro himself was 
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UNKNOWN: 92

UNKNOWN: an activist but assisted activists and terrorists medically. 
 How do you respond to that one?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't 
want to inhibit my learned friend, but I don't understand 
the relevance of that question. I don't understand why the 
Ribeiro matter is raised here and I don't understand the 
reason for the questioning. I object against the question.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it is very easy to understand. The 
witness has just testified that if you assist an activist or 
a terrorist, it means you associate yourself with that and 
you may be an activist yourself. Now I am sketching out the 
Ribeiro incident in that it was found the opposite in the 
Ribeiro matter, not by this Committee, but the evidence 
...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But Mr Mpshe, then perhaps you should put the 
whole story.  There was also evidence that they assisted 
them financially to go out of the country and assisted them 
financially after their return.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, that was the evidence given.  
But the point I am trying to make here, is that the fact 
that he was assisting them financially and medically, did 
not make him an activist. As the witness says if you do 
assist, then you are one.

HASSAN MALL: I think Mr Mpshe, on that point you can 
address us on when the time comes, in the Ribeiro case.

UNKNOWN: As it pleases the Committee.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.   Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will 
sum up my questions.