Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, with all respect.  It is strange to me that Mr Menyatsoe says that he has this regret about this false prosecution of Sergeant Nare because in the mean time he knew that he was the candidate who killed the AWB people and he was also aware of the fact that Nare was prosecuted.  And even though he knew that, he didn't do anything, so the regret aspect here is also important and what he said was not true because if he was really regretting what he did he would have come forward with it before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that is certainly a question for argument that you can use but perhaps it would be, it would be established when the Sergeant was prosecuted.  I mean if the Sergeant was prosecuted in April 1997, then that argument is weak.  If he is prosecuted in 1994 then that might be stronger.  Do you know, do you have any idea when it was made public that the other man was going to be prosecuted for this killing?  Perhaps that can be established.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here.  I just want to clarify this, you do not submit that regret is a requirement for amnesty.

UNKNOWN: With all respect, no, but it is a question of his credibility.  Today he is saying that he has regret today but I know that is not one of the requirements.  Chairperson, later on I might get back to this point once we have covered more information regarding this but for the time being I will leave it there.
	Mr Menyatsoe, when you were questioned by the police with regards to the death of the deceased, when were you the first time approached by the police?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: May you please repeat your question again, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, I will make it easy for you.  Did the police approach you and question you about the death of the three AWB members?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes that is correct.  They came.

UNKNOWN: Was it around the 16th or 17th April, 1997?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't remember the day or the date.  I don't remember when.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember the year?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't remember well.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you remember how long it was before you went to the lawyers of human rights?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They came before I consulted the lawyers for human rights.

ADV BOSMAN: You cannot remember how long before that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't remember.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, is that not after the police questioned you, that you then went to the lawyers of human rights and then applied for amnesty?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have explained that those police came to me before I met a lawyer for human rights.  Then on that day I sought a lawyer in the presence of the police.   I made them to contact my lawyer, then when we left them, they left.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, because it seems to me that if you were not questioned by the police you would not have admitted what you have done.  Is that correct?  In other words you took a chance.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I will respond to this question by saying that you just thinking you don't know what came to my mind, or what would have come to my mind.

UNKNOWN: Sir I do not understand your answer, could you please repeat it.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: My answer is, I disagree with you.  You did not know what were my intentions or my intentions of coming to this Commission would actually occur to me.  As I did not know as well, because it just occurred to me unexpectedly.

UNKNOWN: What did you not yourself know?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not know as to when will the feeling or the intentions occur to me to come in front of this Commission.  Maybe just explain it in this way, I would not know what my intentions or what I would do in the next hour.  I cannot anticipate.

UNKNOWN: In other words you just felt that now you must admit.  So it was just a feeling and that is why you admitted and applied for amnesty.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, the feelings came at their own time and when the moment came, I decided to come forward to this Commission.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, is it your case that you acted in self-defence and also to protect innocent civilians?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Sir, when the police came to question you for the first time, that was  16th or 17th April, I can provide you with the evidence of the Captain.  Did you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that 1997?   (Push your button again)

UNKNOWN: Indeed so, Mr Chairman, that was in 1997.
	When the police came to question you did you then go and get an automatic rifle from the store or the ammunition depot?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with due respect, I do not understand this question?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps he can repeat the question.  I think the question as I understood it was, it was put to the witness that the police went to him on the 16th or 17th April, 1997 and when they went to him he was taken, or could you just repeat that last bit - was he taken or did the witness take the police to a store where a firearm was shown.

UNKNOWN: Sir, I will repeat my question in a different manner.  When you heard that the police are looking for you concerning the death of the three AWB members, did you go and get a R4 or R3 rifle from the storeroom?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Let me put it this way, on that particular day I was somewhere else and when I arrived at home somebody told me that four policemen came looking for me and I wanted to know what it was in connection with.  They told me the policemen were from Mafikeng and they were in company of another policeman who is my colleague in Thaba N'Chu. I asked this particular policeman as to who these policemen are and what is this in connection with.  He said to me that they said that they wanted me in connection with some work here in Mafikeng and I went back to my home and on my arrival there as I was sitting I heard a knock and it was people and when they entered it was two of my Captains and these three policemen and two white people and another Inspector Racudu.  The Captain told me that these men are policemen and they are looking for you regarding the, what happened in 1994 and I asked my Captain as to do you believe yourself that these people are policemen and he said yes.
	I showed them my ID card that I am a policeman.  So I asked them to produce their cards as well.  They were standing next to the door and they had firearms in their waist and standing by the door they said that this bloody bastard does not cooperate. They said that in Afrikaans, in their language and this showed me or it came to me that it was not safe to go with these people although I did not know what was it was actually all about.
	Although I had asked my Captain and he just told me that it is about what happened in 1994 in Mafikeng. Then I asked him, exactly what of the 1994 happenings?  I asked them to go out and they did that and I phoned my lawyer but what is surprising is that they told me that the following day, I must appear in front of the Tebbutt Commission.  
	According to my knowledge, at that time the Tebbutt Commission was on recess.  I spoke to the lawyer and when I told him that they are taking me to the Tebbutt Commission he wondered as to which commission are they are talking about because the Tebbutt Commission is in recess.  He said I must let him speak to one of them on the phone and I gave them the phone and he did.  
	And they went away and waited for me at the police station thereafter.  I sat and had a discussion with my lawyer who advised me not to go with these people and he will try to talk to them so they should wait for you there at the Tebbutt Commission and I will bring you there, but you must not go with them.  That was the advice from my lawyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage get an R4 rifle from a  storeroom or an R3?