Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	And then, after using the firearms, who was responsible for the safekeeping of the firearms or did you keep them with you individually?  What happened with the firearms?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We kept them individually but if there was anything in Alexandra, maybe a problem, we would borrow them to other people but you'd know exactly who you lent your firearm to.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.

ADV BOSMAN: One moment please Mr Tloubatla.
	Mr Hlasa, did you regularly carry a firearm with you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Regularly I had a firearm.

ADV BOSMAN: And the particular firearm you used on this day, how long had it been in your possession?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was quite some time.  I took part in many incidents, I think three or four incidents if I remember but it had been a long time having that gun with me.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just ask, can you remember who you gave the gun to when the other three went out?  You say you handed them the firearms, the second group, and then they went out to kill the other three.  My question is -it seems you're not getting the drift of it, if I heard you correctly you said that after the killing of the three, when you returned you reported and you gave the firearms to the other three and they went and they killed the next three people.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I think I did not hand my gun, it was with me.  When we arrived I think comrade Kabelo and comrade Mxolisi Thandakubona went to Dlamini to look for other firearms and when we arrived, they had returned already.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, just to take you slightly back, besides the leadership of the two organisations, that is UDF and AZAPO, were any other efforts to try and quell this conflict that was existing between the two organisations?  Were there other efforts from the community?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I remember a Priest such as Reverend Siwoka, they tried to intervene in this violence but they did not succeed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, I have got a press cutting here which says - it is dated April 1986, The Sowetan, and therein they're saying
"Priest in Bid to end Conflict:  Clerics on the Westrand yesterday said they were trying to end a bloody conflict between members of, affiliates of the United Democratic Front and the Black Consciousness Movement".
I would like you to look at this, would this be part of the efforts that would be waged by the Priest to try and quell this conflict?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I think it's one of them because it refers to the situation in Bekkersdal and Randfontein.  Those were the two areas which were violent.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, I also have ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Tloubatla, is there a date on that publication?

MR TLOUBATLA: On the publication, yes, it's The Sowetan of 1986, April 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't we have it as an Exhibit?

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, definitely the - but even though I was intending to make copies and a bundle for the Committee, so that when I am addressing then I'm going to hand it in.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, other people may want to use it during cross-examination.

MR TLOUBATLA: It can be taken in, it can be used yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll have it as Exhibit A.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Sir.
	I have got another publication, it's: Die Burger dated the 29th November 1986.  It says:
"Four members of the student council in Soweto who are affiliated to the UDF were yesterday by a interdict of the Witwatersrand Supreme Court prohibited to attack the Secretary General of AZAPO, Mr George Oukop, or to damage his property"  ...[transcriber's own translation]
You mentioned Mr Oukop in your evidence repeatedly, is that, was this arising also out of the conflict that you had with the other organisations?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: This is written in Afrikaans and I did not quite understand it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Well, it simply says that Mr Oukop obtained an interdict in the Witwatersrand local division of the Supreme Court to interdict some people from either assaulting him or destroying his property, that is people affiliated to the UDF.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I remember that, it referred to Kenneth Fitla and them.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit B.

MR TLOUBATLA: I also would like to refer you to The Star of 9 June 1986 and then the interview was given by, in fact it's Bishop Desmond Tutu who was quoted at the funeral of Mr Delisa Matjoba and he was also condemning the violence between the two organisations, that is AZAPO and the UDF affiliated organisations.  That is The Star of June 1986.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It is not only in this article, Bishop Tutu has many articles where he pleaded that the black on black violence stop because it was senseless.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also referring to the conflict between BCM and UDF?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, he was referring to that.

CHAIRPERSON: We will it as Exhibit C.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then Mr Chairman, I would refer to two more publications, they others I'll use during my address to the Committee.  This was a Sowetan publication of Tuesday, May the 27th of 1986 and apparently The Sowetan undertook a survey
"In a snap survey the man in the street yesterday appealed for peace between the warring political groups in the black community.  The appeal comes in the wake of an alarming increase in violence between the UDF and the Azanian People's Organisation and Inkatha"
Are they referring to the type of conflict that was, that is this particular publication, is it referring to the type of conflict that you both had, that is AZAPO and the UDF?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Look at the date, it is May 27th, it was at the time when violence was very strong in Soweto.  Yes, I agree with this article.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then I have here also a publication that is The Weekly Mail dated the 18th of December 1986, do you know the late Mr Mhieza?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I know him very well.

MR TLOUBATLA: And at that time, what position did he hold in your organisation, that is AZAPO?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He was the National Publicity Secretary.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to read from The Weekly Mail of the 18th of December 1986 and I'm quoting one of the paragraph there.  It says
"Mhieza says AZAPO has its own code of conduct which all our members subscribe to and deviances are viewed in a serious light, however where and when the need arises for our members to defend themselves, their family and property, they should do so with means commensurate with the danger they apprehend"
I've just quoted from what Mr Mhieza said, that was in December 1986.  You spoke about ...[intervention]

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Can you please repeat, I did not understand what you said?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mhieza says
"AZAPO has its own code of conduct which all our members subscribe to and deviances are viewed in a serious light, however where and when the need arises for our members to defend themselves, their family and property, they should do so with means commensurate with the danger they apprehend"
Did you get it now?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, that is correct, he once mentioned that.  I mentioned earlier on that the organisation's positions was not to retaliate but if we were under pressure we were supposed to defend ourselves according to the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be Exhibit E I guess.

MR TLOUBATLA: According to the publication, that publication came, I mean that statement was in December 1986 and the incident that we are talking about now occurred in August 1986.  Can you perhaps explain when that type of order was given?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not remember but within the organisation we knew already that if we were being attacked we were supposed to defend ourselves, but I wouldn't specifically know when the order was issued out.  The newspapers say it was December.

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, ...[intervention]