Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: One of the questions you were asked in this TV interview, and I will quote what Mr Bridgeland asked you:  some of the stories we have heard from people is that at one time you were helping boys that didn't want to joint the Mandela United Football Club to get away from it, are we correctly informed?  This was your response, well, yes, especially when we heard what they were doing, because now the Football Club could see that it was getting out of hand.
 So in fact my own sister's sons who was staying with me, I pulled them out immediately when I heard the stories from other boys who were there arguing in that club.  So any other young boy who was in the club, I would speak to them strongly to say "look, I think this is not the right club for you people, if this is what you are going to do."
 Do you confirm your statement you made to Mr Bridgeland?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: So, in the sense that I have just quoted to you, this is how you did help young men, you would advise them to leave the club?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: There was in a trial, I believe it was State versus Ikaneng, reference to a hit list allegedly by the Mandela United Football Club in which some members of your family were also allegedly targeted, are you aware of this hit list?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: A hit list?  There was reference to a hit list of persons who were to be targeted by the Mandela United Football Club?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.  My Committee members were threatened, that is Cachalia in particular, that is the one I know of.

MR VALLY: When you say your Committee members, which Committee are you referring to?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I am talking about my Committee of the UDF, where I was the President.

MR VALLY: And you say when Cachalia was threatened, who threatened him and how was he threatened?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, he told us, he said there were phone calls that were threatening him.

MR VALLY: And what were the nature of the threats?

ALBERTINA SISULU: To kill him in fact.

MR VALLY: Can I, do you know who made the threats?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't know.

MR VALLY: What did he advise you, who made the threats?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I am not sure of that person.

MR VALLY: Let's go on, I want to go back to this hit list which allegedly had members of your family, the younger members of your family on this hit list.  Did you ever hear anything about a piece of paper which had a list of people who were to be targeted by the Mandela United Football Club?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't even remember the hit list that I saw.  Hit list?

MR VALLY: A hit list saying these are the targets, these are the people that we must attack?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Given by whom?

MR VALLY: It was referred to in the trial, I believe it was State versus Ikaneng, are you aware of it at all?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No, no, I wasn't aware of it.

MR VALLY: Were you ever personally threatened or did you ever feel intimidated by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and or the Football Club, you personally?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, because of the suspicion because my house too was burnt, I thought it was the Football Club.

MR VALLY: Why did you believe this?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Because they were the people who had you know, a reign of terror in the township.

MR VALLY: And why would they target you?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, I suppose because my sister's children were involved, perhaps when I pulled them out, that was perhaps the reason why.

MR VALLY: Let me understand this, are you saying that members of the Football Club were upset because you asked your sister's children to leave the Football Club?

ALBERTINA SISULU: That is so, I am not saying that is what it was, but I think because I don't see the reason because I had no enemy amongst my people.  I didn't see the reason why my house was burnt.

MR VALLY: Did you ever have any proof as to who was actually responsible for your house being attacked?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No, I never.

MR VALLY: Do you believe that the Mandela United Football Club was an issue of controversy and you referred to them as having conducted a reign of terror?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, especially when we saw the front page in the papers talking about these boys who have murdered other people, then I felt they were doing havoc in the township.

MR VALLY: Did you feel that that Club should be disbanded?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, that is what we wanted in my organisation.  We wanted it to be disbanded because it was causing trouble with the people in the township.

MR VALLY: Did you ever approach Mrs Madikizela-Mandela on this issue?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I wouldn't because I was not supposed to speak to her because I would be inviting jail for myself, we were both banned.

MR VALLY: Did you ever send a message to her lawyer about this issue?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, because my organisation was already attending to this, there was no need for that?

MR VALLY: Do you believe in any way that the Football Club was in any way involved in or Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, involved in the murder of Dr Asvat?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I wouldn't say that.  Especially that I wouldn't think Mrs Mandela could kill Asvat because I thought really they were friendly.

MR VALLY: My last question, did Dr Asvat ever discuss with you or confide in you his concerns about the whole issue of the abduction of the youths from the Methodist manse?

ALBERTINA SISULU: He never did that to me.

MR VALLY: You said in the interview that if he had done so, he could possibly have been alive?  Am I quoting you correctly?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, that was my feeling perhaps.  My pressure to him as a mother, would have done the trick.  I really feel that, had he told me all these secrets about the boys, I wouldn't have allowed him to you know, indulge himself to this.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mrs Sisulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Let's take a break, a 15 minute break for tea, thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please settle?  I have made my appeal, I don't want to repeat myself.  Just sit down please, just sit down.  Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, we do not have questions for the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any questions on that side?

ADV JORDI: Mrs Sisulu, my name is Peter Jordi, I act for Dudu Chili.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether it should be a condition of your appearing for your witness, that you should be able to pronounce the witness' name.  I am not saying so.

ADV JORDI: Madam, can you tell me when was Fetro formed?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have no idea.

ADV JORDI: Is it correct to say that it was formed in 1984?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I am not sure of the time.

ADV JORDI: Am I correct in thinking that Fetro operated by having for example the Soweto Women's Committee in Soweto which reported to Fetro?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, I won't be quite sure because most of time I have been house arrested and I never actually got into a Committee because I was not allowed.

ADV JORDI: But you were living in Soweto at the time?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I was living in Soweto at that time.

ADV JORDI: Right.  You had to remain at home at night, you were not allowed to go out, is that right?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

ADV JORDI: I am told that late in 1988, some youths approached you who said that they were fleeing from the Mandela United Football Club and they came to you at your home at night, and asked for assistance, do you remember that incident?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't remember because at night I was not supposed to see anybody.

ADV JORDI: I understand and my information is that because you were not meant to see anybody, you called on Dudu Chili, to help you?

ALBERTINA SISULU: It may be because she was the one who was near me.