Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question then, so that my learned colleague can also understand.  It seems he's got problems with my questions.   Sir, exactly, my fourth time I'm asking you, exactly what were your instructions from Bhani, were your instructions to kill people or... (intervention).

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, sorry for interrupting, I think the misunderstanding is, instructions at what stage are you referring to, before they moved to the supermarket, at the supermarket, if you could just clarify this in your question.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Before the incident at the supermarket, were you briefed by Bhani on the target you're going to attack?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: He told us about the target, he told us that we were going to the supermarket just before we left.  The second instruction was when we were inside the supermarket, when he instructed us to fire.  There was no other instruction that he issued thereafter.  We went back to Mnyagene location thereafter.

MR STEENKAMP: Did he at any stage, at any stage, this is now prior the incident and during the incident, inform you only to attack white people?  Do you understand my question?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Never, he never gave us that instruction.

MR STEENKAMP: Now you see, this is my question, and maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I remember Mr Bhani's evidence, this is not what he said.  He said the focus was only to kill white people.  Now my question is to you, why are you differing from what Bhani said in his evidence before the Committee?  Do you understand my question?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Can you please explain your question?  If you say the focus was on white people, what do you mean?  I don't get your question?

MR STEENKAMP: You see, Sir, the previous applicant testified that the focus was, or the aim was, to kill white people in the shop, you heard that, you were sitting there, do you remember that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, I remember, I heard so.

MR STEENKAMP: Now you're saying he never gave you such an instruction, is that correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: He didn't tell us to shoot white people before getting to the supermarket, the instruction came when we were in the supermarket, he gave us an instruction to shoot and I shot everything that was in front of my eyes.

MR STEENKAMP: In other words black or white people, anybody that was in the shop, not only white people?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There were no black people, we didn't find black people there, there were only whites.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I just ask you... (intervention).

ADV SOGODI: Sir, in your affidavit you mentioned that you were a unit commander and you had undergone military training in Tanzania and Uganda, and then you came back into the country.   Now what I want to know is that, in relation to targets, what was the policy that - was there any policy that you knew of insofar as APLA was concurrent in relation to targets, what criteria was used to identify targets by the PAC or by APLA?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: As I've already said, the commander identified the target, I would take instructions from the commander.

ADV SOGODI: My question is, in identifying targets, what criteria would be used as a matter of policy by the PAC, was there any policy used to identify targets, and if so what criteria were used to identify those targets?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: An example, the supermarket was chosen because it was frequented by the police and AWB members, and they were different, the AWB members were different, because they had badges in their uniforms, and the police had uniform, that's the example of a target.

MR MALAN: May I just follow that up?  Wouldn't a post office also then be a target, wouldn't AWB members go to a post office, wouldn't every shop then, on that basis, be a target?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: If we would find them there, they would be targets, even the post office would be a target.

MR MALAN: The question by the Committee Member was, the criteria to identify a target, and then you said police and AWB, but police and AWB frequent every possible public facility, wouldn't all public facilities then be a target? That's really the question.  What is the relevance of the police and AWB?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Murder and "Roof" wears uniform, wears privately, not uniform, but if you happen to know some people there, you won't say that just becuase this one belongs to this group, but as long as you know that this person is a policeman and he is your enemy, you would shoot anyone who is next to him, even if it's black policemen, they were benefitting from the old regime.   I was forced to kill them.

MR MALAN: No, you're not following, the qeustion was, when you identified a target, what was the criteria used to identify a target, would you try to answer that qeustion again, what criteria did you use in identifying a target?

ADV SOGODI: Sorry, may I just ask this question, I'll put this question to you in Xhosa, I see that you are Xhosa speaking, you speak Xhosa?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

ADV SOGODI: The qeustion is, I am going to put it in Xhosa, when you are about to identify your target, there are things that you look for before, what are those things that you use to identify, what are those things that you would look for in order to identify your target?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The way we used to identify a target, we would check, for instance Wesselsbron, we knew that there were a lot of boers at Wesselsbron, and we would find them there, because the supermarket at Wesselsbron would close at 9:00 p.m., even the police would be there at the time, because they were patrolling the place.  Those are the things that we would look for.  If there's a lot of policemen or a lot of boers, we would identify that place as our target.  So if I find a place with a lot of boers, I just choose the right time and come and attack those boers.

ADV SOGODI: Would it be necessary for that spot to be a place that is used by the public?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That would depend on a person who would be identifying that target, he's the one who would be in a better position, who would know what people are frequenting that place.  Like the golf club, the owners of the land wouldn't be affected, but only the oppressors who would be affected.  Bhani chose Wesselsbron, because he knew that those who were oppressed were not there, it's only the oppressors who were there.  I hope you'll understand it that way.

ADV SOGODI: No, I do understand.   All we need is to get from you the policy, APLA policy, as far as identifying the targets?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: If we want a target, the commander would go to that particular town and inspect the place, maybe he would find a place that is frequented by the boers and think to himself that if I hit this place, the government would feel the pain, rather than attacking one person, so if they die in large numbers, they would protest.  For an example, at Wesselsbron, after that attack, the people marched, those people marched and they realised that APLA was just around the corner.

MR MALAN: At this target, the supermarket, was there a taxi rank there?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Right at the supermarket?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There's a street in between, it's just in the front opposite of the supermarket.

MR MALAN: Would the people from the taxi rank, public there, arriving from taxis and coming to taxis, would they not frequent the shop?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: They were not even there, because the taxis stop working at about 8:00 p.m., the taxis that are going to the townships.

MR MALAN: So after 8:00 there are no taxis?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No taxis.

MR MALAN: Thank you.