bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

N SANDI: I would prefer that if you decide to testify in Xhosa you do that consistently and if you testify in English you do that consistently, but I understand that this morning when we had a conversation you said you are going to testify in Xhosa.

WITNESS: Yes.
Mr

N SANDI: Fine, thank you.  As you have said, Mr Jack, that 70% of your statement you are not going to touch it now, then it means that you are going to speak to us for a short time.  Because if you take 70% from 100% you are only left with 30%.  Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
Mr

N SANDI: I will then be wasting your time and everybody else's time in here, if I could just ask you now to tell us who you are because everybody in here, in Port Elizabeth, not just in Port Elizabeth, in the whole Eastern Cape, and I also think even nationally people know you.  Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, correct.
Mr

N SANDI: Could you briefly tell us now, as you are here now before the Commission, where do you live and what do you do for a living?

WITNESS: As we speak I am staying at Mount Pleasant.  I am a businessman, or I should say I am trying to be a businessman.  I studied in Economics which has helped me now to contribute into the economy of this country.
Mr

N SANDI: You said you had a B.Com degree.  Where did you do this?

WITNESS: I obtained my degree at the University of London.
Mr

N SANDI: What did you say you are doing for a living?

WITNESS: I am a consultant.
Mr

N SANDI: You did your studies after you have been in and out, being tortured in prison because of your contribution and your role in certain organisations?

WITNESS: In 1990 after we had been released from prison, in 1989 I applied to study in Canada, Britain and America.  I was accepted in Britain.  I started there from 1990 up to 1993.  During 1993 I came back to Port Elizabeth.  Let me go back a little.  Let me go back to where I was supposed to start in the first place.
Mr

N SANDI: The lady next to you, please tell us who she is so that we can accept her?

WITNESS: She is Sindiswe Shume.  She is my cousin.  We have been together since I came back to Port Elizabeth.  My mother was supposed to come here, but she did not believe that one of the perpetrators was going to be here so she was actually scared to come.  Because of my mother who could not be here I asked my cousin to be here.
Mr

N SANDI: We also welcome her, thank you.  Mr Jack, let me let you start.  Tell us about your detention between 1977 to 1989.  From now on, now you will be only one speaking.  I will not have to lead you about this.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Please let me interrupt you, I am sorry.  Can I interrupt you?  Please switch off your microphone.  Brothers and sisters, please settle down.  Can we have silence please.  The noise we can hear from down there can it please subside.  We request that if there is somebody in the witness stand that nobody must stand up and walk up and down.  Thank you.

WITNESS: They said Nombulelo was the one who used to help them a lot, but I did not believe that at all.  I had this premonition that there was something that was going on.  I am not telling you that I was right at that time but she had things that made me suspicious.  Even today I am still suspicious.  I continued giving Koliswa R100,00 so that she could take it to my daughter.  On these days when I would go and give them money there would be a hippo standing right opposite Koliswa's shop.  Opposite Koliswa's house was a place called Nosisi, I would know that this hippo was looking at me but I would not get out of the taxi right in front of the shop.  I would just pretend as if I am sending the money with a child to the shop.  During all that time I was thinking of my daughter.  My mother was having operations at that time in the hospital.  She could not get proper operations at that time especially immediately because her diabetes at that time was quite high.
This letter she wrote just before the boere came my daughter told me that she had called Mama.  "Please tell Mama that I am alright."  She used to be quite concerned about my mother.  My mother used to ask when she was coming back.  I used to say that my daughter is coming back soon.  Then I would try and collect some money so that she could skip the country but I could not.  One of Mzolisi's brothers used to go and stay with Thozama just to accompany her.  He was just making things better for Thozama so that she would not be alone.
On 10 December, no it was 4 December, Thozama wrote a strange letter to me.  This letter said  "Dear Sisi, I miss you so much.  Where is Mama?  How is Mama doing?  I do not know what is going on with me.  Could you please pray for me?  Please pray for me.  I do not know the end of my life, how it will be.  Pray for me and I am also trying to pray for myself."  That was now on 4 December and Thozama was shot at dawn on 10 December.  It was on a Friday when I got the news, but I could not even cry until the boere came because I did not want them to see me like that.  I was lucky because these boere did not do anything drastic to me.
Thozama died on Friday and then on Monday, by Monday people knew about this but they could not come to me to comfort me.  People who came to me very early on that Friday were Koliswa Skweyiya who is my friend and Nosisi...
[Information lost due to changing of cassettes]
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure of the exact details of the application.  We received notification this morning from our lawyer's office in Cape Town advising us that an application has been made seeking to restrain the TRC from calling Mrs Mtimkulu to the podium.  Originally we thought that we were to call Mrs Mtimkulu not to mention the names but this morning we were informed that we are actually being asked not to call her.  I understand in the legal field when you know that the matter is already in court you are supposed to respect the fact that it is in court and continue to act at that stage was going to be considered to be unacceptable.  So we were advised not to take it.
(?)No microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: XHOSA - No interpretation.   I am not threatened my bringing where I come from.  You do not stop people by force.  You actually talk to people and try and have the matter resolved.  This is exactly what we did and resolved the matter.  I you are asking me whether we are going to have a tensed security situation where we have buck-wire surrounding the Commission, keeping people out, at this stage I do not know.  At this stage I do not see the need for that.  I believe that people are reasonable.
(?) How tensed do you think the situation was today?

CHAIRPERSON: It was extremely tense.  We required cool heads.  There was a lot of anger, but we are lucky to have a very clearly defined leadership in this area, incredible leadership.  As soon as we sat down with the leaders and put through our point of view reason prevailed.  Otherwise I must say that there was potential for disruption.
(?)No microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps violence if we had handled it badly.  If we had handled it badly it could have led to violence, but I think I knew from the beginning that with the approach that we were going to adopt on the matter we should be able to avoid a violent situation.
(?) How many hearing are you planning in the Eastern Cape altogether?

CHAIRPERSON: We are planning to have 12 hearings.  I do not have the schedule in front of me here, but we have already scheduled where they are going to be and when.  In addition to that we will have special event hearings which will cover the massacres that have taken place in the region, Uitenhage, Bisho, Transkei, Pondoland, all the major massacres that have taken place in the region.  Those will require special event hearings.
(?) That will take place in those particular towns?

CHAIRPERSON: They will take place in those areas.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank you Mama Bekwa for your evidence.  We all share your pain as the South Africans, it was very painful to hear what happened at the university when those five children died at the University of Zululand.
 It was suspected that they were killed by the Inkatha group members and they were killed during the day when there was an occasion.  A day which was supposed to have been regarded as the day to rejoice as it was the graduation ceremony for those who have succeeded.
 Unfortunately the university turned into a battlefield as the students were attacked by the armed group of people when they were unarmed.  He is not the only one, Professor Marupati who is University of South Africa, has also a story to tell because his son died during that incident.
 He is now stationed there at Pretoria, I can remember him as one of the people who suffered also in the same way as you have suffered.
PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
11
 We have a branch of the Commission, I am certain that the investigators and the people who are researchers will try to communicate with those who are in Natal and give them Lundi's name so that we can get clarity of what really happened that day.
 We will try to consider your request, I would not say we will meet your son's wishes and needs, especially for - the promise to support you financially and give you R5 000-00 a month, I am certain that you understand that you are not the only one and there are so many people, because we are going all over the country and there might be more wishes.
 At times we should like it when the people realise it that some of their needs and demands may not be met.

MRS BEKWA: I'd like to find out if that incident cannot be televised, because I have never seen what happened.  That is my request.  Maybe when I see on TV and watch it, there might be some people whom you could identify who would be on the TV.

CHAIRPERSON: As I've said before Mama, we will try to make contact with some of the journalists, there might be some footages of the incident, maybe they could assist us.  Probably you'd be able to get some assistance in that regard.
 Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Lulamile, we share your pain because you have lost your brother, Monde.  You are still very young and was ambitious.
 We are certain he was ambitious because he was one of the professional boxers or one of the champions in this Eastern Province.  
 We have heard what you have said, the Commission will 
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take it into consideration.  We are also grateful that you  have for this opportunity because we are certain that you have been bottling this for quite a long time.
 You might be grateful that you at last got the opportunity to say this in public, thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

BONGANI FINCA: Mr  Maqina, could you please just stop a little bit.  Could you go back again when you informed this newspaper about the third force, we would like to find out more about that.

MZWANDILE EBENEZER MAQINA: Why I talked to probe and mentioned about the third force, I had some reasons because you would find that when there were attacks, you would find that it would be reported that it was the AZAPO members who attacked the UDF members, but I knew that most of them were inside in my place.
 There was a fight between UDF and AZAPO members.  Allegedly AZAPO members, and they were at Njole, but it was strange because all the members that I knew, were at my place.  You would see that there were members who would fight wearing their T-shirt, it was very strange that how could they identify themselves when they were going to a fight.
 And then we were trying to warn people and say it was very difficult to make things clear for everybody because we could realise that there might be somebody who was using AZAPO as the people who were causing the chaos.

BONGANI FINCA: Excuse me Revd Maqina.  I am interested in the aspect of the third force because you will notice that if you were following these hearings here in Port Elizabeth, there was mention of a conflict between UDF and AZAPO.  Many witnesses were raising the point that police were posing as AZAPO and attacking UDF members.
 That ties up with what you are saying about the third force, but you're not coming out clear about what you are actually saying.  What is your opinion or your view on this?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-26

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Mfutwana, I am going to give you back to the Chairperson.  Maybe one of my colleagues might have questions.  Thank you Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Just one question.  Mr Mfutwana, you mentioned that perhaps one or two days after your brother was killed, and we are very distressed to hear about the way he was butchered, you said that you had reported it to the Louis Le Grange police station.
 You reported his death, is that right?

SANDILE WELLINGTON MFUTWANA: That is so.

DR BORAINE: Was there ever an inquest or a court case or any enquiry surrounding the circumstances of your brother's death?

SANDILE WELLINGTON MFUTWANA: No, since I reported when he - I never heard anything.  I never heard of any arrests, nothing, up to today.

DR BORAINE: Did you ever get a death certificate?

SANDILE WELLINGTON MFUTWANA: Yes, I did.

DR BORAINE: You can't remember the person to whom you made the report, but it was the Louis Le Grange police station?

SANDILE WELLINGTON MFUTWANA: No, I can't remember that, no.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much for your help.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Any other question.  Thank you very much for coming and your patience which you've explained knowing that you would have to come to this lengthy proceedings.
 Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-26

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: I don't know what to say to you ladies.  We cannot highlight the importance of your contribution.  We cannot utter the words of thanks, we have been listening to stories and you always, each time you listen to the other one you believe that there can't be anything beyond that one.
 But each case has its individuality.  Although we know that we are weak, I'd like us to try and say may God comfort you.  We'd like to thank you for the courage that you were able to come here and express your feelings to the public as you have done now, today.
 God's ways are very strange, we do not know what made you survive.  We cannot even state that it is through our will that we are now saying there is change in our country, but we can emphasise the fact that we would like to express gratitude to those who sacrificed their lives.  We are now bearing fruits of their struggle.
 And also the way in which you carried this burden alone for quite a long time.  May God bless you, may you get strength, may God be with you.  We'd like to thank you very much.
 We are finished today, we will start again at 9 am tomorrow.  Please stand.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-26

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.  I just want to say without wasting time, I would like us to call Monde to testify and tell us about this young man, his activities within COSAS.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

MISEKA NANCY NGONGO: No, I don't know, but I know he didn't have a passport, if he had a passport, it must have been a false passport, but I don't know.
 However, he did say he was from the Transkei because that's where we come from.  Even though they grew up here, originally we come from the Transkei, so he said these people took him.  
PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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 Lindialoma Begce, the girl with whom he was as he was tied between seats like a dog.
 And they came back, apparently they came back to Lindialoma Begce to fetch her.  They took her to Roma police station where Lindialoma was dropped and Mbulelo was taken away.  Lindialoma stayed for two days at that police station.
 She never met Mbulelo again.  Lindialoma doesn't know these police when I asked her because I did try to arrange for her to come here to tell me what had happened, but when I asked her, she just said I just saw from their badges and then I took their names, that's how I kept their names.
 On the second day I was released, but then I asked about Mbulelo on my release, about his whereabouts.  They said you can go look for him at all the police stations, so she did that, went to all the police stations in Lesotho and they didn't know anything about him.  They would show her the records and she wouldn't find his name.
 So she returned to the residence at the university.  She says from her side, that is as far as she could say anything about Mbulelo, so I went to a lawyer because I was phoned to go to some people who worked with him, phoned me to say I should go to a lawyer in Durban.  Lawyer Qoinzamlaba, the Council of Churches arranged for me to go there.
 I spent a night at a Holiday Inn hotel, on the second day there people were calling me from the labour office here in Port Elizabeth because my husband had died in December.  As this happened in March.

UNKNOWN: When did your husband die?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

MISEKA NANCY NGONGO: When I was in prison, I did ask the policeman, when I was in prison, after I was charged, when I was up, I asked the police to go to the labour office because I still want to go to that business, the question of my husband's benefits, so I went there and then I saw Nebe, he didn't even want to look at me.
 I greeted him, now he pretended as if he didn't know me.  On my release I went straight to him, I said Mr Nebe, do you know me?  I am Mrs Ngongo and he said, no I don't know you.  I said, no you can't tell me you don't know me.
 No, you know that people do come out of prison, I've returned from the prison where you took me.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, Mrs Ngongo.

CHAIRPERSON: We said this, even on two occasions, that in our liberation we have not yet grasped the extent of the contribution of women.  So much so that reverend Finca raised the point that if this Commission did not have an occasion where it would look at the contribution of the women, it would be, it should happen, a mistake if it didn't do that.
 And you are one of those people who is an example of the extent to which the women contributed to the struggle, but you have entered the thick of things yourself, working with the comrades and fighters that brought us this freedom.
 If we didn't have time constraints we would let you talk and talk, we will apologise even to your daughter.  This is not the last occasion that we will be able to listen PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
19 MN NGONGO
to you.  Further we might even have a chance to listen to your daughter and to you.
 Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

CHAIRPERSON: Now we are going to call Mrs Nomvula Regina Nomgqokwana.  Mrs Regina Nomvula Nomgqokwana.  Will you put on your - yes.  We welcome you Mrs Nomgqokwana and receive it and having welcomed you as we have already done, we shall ask Revd Xundu to swear you in.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson.  Mrs Nomgqokwana, you came here to give us your story which is about the role your child played in the coming of the freedom.  Can I swear you in please, can you stand up.

REGINA NOMVULA NOMGQOKWANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: As is usual, we shall call upon Adv Denzil Potgieter, to lead you in your testimony.  Over to you.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.  Good afternoon Mrs Nomgqokwana, another warm welcome to you.  We know that you have been waiting for the better part of the day to come and tell your story, share your story with us and we thank you for your patience.  I will help you to tell your story to us, but it is your story and I'll assist you where it is necessary.
 Perhaps just to start with very briefly, you can perhaps tell us about yourself.  Who you are, where you live, whether you have a family, all that sort of thing, very briefly.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-26

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Thank you very much for coming.  We want to express to you our very deepest sympathies for what happened to your family when your husband was killed in this vicious manner.
 And we hope as we said to the other people who testified, speaking about their own pain, that God will strengthen you and God will embrace you with His love and compassion and that the loneliness that you must surely experience, will be (indistinct), that you will know that God is Emmanuel, God with us, present in pain, in anguish, in death, in awfulness that God does not leave you, does not leave us.
PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
7
 But we as a Commission will seek to come to the bottom of all of this and point out that the awfulness of our past includes  atrocities of this kind which don't know colour.
 And we just hope that in a way to that the pain that you have will enable you to have a solidarity with other women, other mothers, other wives who have gone through similar experiences and that that solidarity will strengthen you, will uphold you as you share in the tears and yet say we have come through that hell and now we are in this kind of country.
 And pray that things of this kind will never happen again to anybody.  God bless you.

SYBIL ROBIN STOLS: Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Tiyo, can you hear me?

THEODORA NOSISI TIYO: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  We are going to listen to your evidence when your daughter was killed.  Before we do that we would like you to stand up so that the reverend here next to me, reverend Xundu can please lead you in taking of the oath.

THEODORA NOSISI TIYO: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: Mr Commissioner, I am handing over to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama, we usually get somebody to assist you and Dr Mapule Ramashala will be the one to guide you when you give the evidence.  I am handing over to her.

UNKNOWN: Good morning Mrs Tiyo.

THEODORA NOSISI TIYO: good morning.

UNKNOWN: I would like to express my apology, because I am going to guide you in English because I have not been communicating in Xhosa, I am afraid to insult or use abusive language.  Are you all right?

THEODORA NOSISI TIYO: Yes, I am all right, thank you.

UNKNOWN: This witnessing is a very tragic one.  Very typical to several stories we've heard throughout the country.  The tragic killing of children.  Mrs Tiyo will relate her story of what happened to her 11 year old daughter on the 19th of August 1976.

THEODORA NOSISI TIYO: I am Mrs Tiyo.  I am the wife to the Qwaiy clan
PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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family, my birthplace is here in Port Elizabeth, but my husband originally is from Uitenhage.  He died in 1970 and he was detained during the time he died. 
 He got ill, he was arrested for theft because they said he had stolen a watch and then he suffered from a sore throat and then it was said he cannot continue his sentence which was six months and then he was released and then I looked after him.
 We had two children, Sipho was born in 1960 and Xoliswa was born in 1965.  I would like to talk about the person concerned.
 On the 19th of August I left Sipho and Xoliswa, they were preparing for school.  I was working at Walmer at the time.  When I got to my place of employment, I requested that I should be given a half day because I was afraid that something terrible could happen.  The situation was very unhealthy during that time.
 When I came to the station I could see that the people were looking at me in a funny way.  I asked them what was the problem, why are you looking at me like that?  some of them were just staring at me.   They told me that my daughter had been shot dead and I wanted to know more details and then they directed me to my mother-in-law.
 I went to my mother-in-law and found out and confirmed what I've heard.  My mother-in-law informed me that she was also called by some of the community members and she was also informed about the shooting.
 She claims to have gone there and then she went to the spot and the scene where the daughter was killed.

UNKNOWN: Take your time Mrs Tiyo.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: We'd like to thank you very much to both of you.  We are always dumbfounded by what we hear and we are always short of words to comfort you.
 We hope that you will get strength.  We have heard many stories and everybody who has come to the witness stand always expresses something which is painful.  We wish that you could be supporting each other, we want to send our condolences to all of you.  We will try our best to meet your needs if possible, then we will be able to assist you.
 Thank you very much.
 I've learned that there are people who read newspapers whilst they are inside here, I would request that you should leave the hall so that you can enjoy your newspaper, because we have already stated that this is a very solemn moment, so we have to respect it.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Shepstone — 1996-08-12

KHOZA MGOJO: Lexicon Street in Port Shepstone, a place  which I had become familiar with in view of the number of occasions I had been taken there by the security police.  I was taken into the office of the second respondent, who began the interrogation by seeking information about my links with the Natal Indian Congress and other organisations to which I am linked, as well as my role in the recent school boycotts in Port Shepstone.  I pointed out that I am the public relations officer of the Marburg and Port Shepstone Ratepayers and Civic Association.  And while I spoke the first respondent walked around the room brandishing his knobkerrie, and in a threatening fashion he came up to me and jabbed me several time with his elbow and said, "So you are the South Coast politician."  Mr Commissioner, they used vulgar words.  Must I repeat those words, the vulgar words?

KHOZA MGOJO: Okay, if you want.

WITNESS:   Okay.  "We are going to deal with you properly.  So you are the character that writes letters to the local press and newspapers.  You mustn't think we are sleeping.  We are fucking wide awake.  We have a thick file about you.  We know you better than you know yourself."  The second respondent then went into another room, came back a few seconds later with a newspaper cutting which contained my photograph, and in which I called upon the voters to boycott the Marburg Town Board elections.  The second respondent launched into a scathing criticism of my role in local political affairs.  I attempted to explain myself to the first respondent, but he lashed out against me in a violent verbal diatribe, attacking the principles which I stood for.  At this stage the second respondent grabbed me angrily by the collar, punched me in my stomach, and pushed me against a wall, saying, "We whites give you the opportunity to run your own affairs and you fucking coolies don't want it."  Sergeant Breedt then came behind me and pushed me in the back.  I was stunned by the blow and remained panting and breathless, unable to speak.  The third respondent thereafter warned me to keep out of politics, saying, "Because of your politics you are being deprived ... (inaudible) ... person.  You are a good builder and you

KHOZA MGOJO: /"should
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

PHILLISTUS LERUTLA: They had nothing on them, no weapons like stones or such things.  What worried them was the rent issue PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 P LERUTLA
because the rent had no fixed price at that time.  People could not understand what was happening regarding this matter.  That is why we went to the Mayor to address this issue of an unfixed rent rate.

RUSSELL ALLY: And when you arrived at the building was there any, from the crowd itself, did they try to storm this Municipal office?  Did they try to force their way in or what was the mood of the crowd then when you arrived at the place where the Mayor was?

PHILLISTUS LERUTLA: These people carried themselves in a well-mannered way.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

PHILLISTUS LERUTLA: May I add to what I have said?

RUSSELL ALLY: Certainly.

PHILLISTUS LERUTLA: Okay.  What surprises me is that we are being told, someone is being instructed to kill us whilst we are going to discuss a rent issue.  I would like that person who killed me to be brought forward so that I can see him because I do not know how I am going to end up supporting my children because I suspect that I will become ill later because of this bullet that is lodged in my leg. I do not know why this person shot at me because we were only going to discuss the rent issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any other questions?  Lady, we thank you for coming here and we will also try to investigate as to how this incident happened and to find out who gave instructions to perpetrate such bad deeds.  We will try to find out who the perpetrators are and come and question them, but all the same we thank you for being here and we are not sure, maybe there are those who might help you to extract the bullet from your leg which seemingly is
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 P LERUTLA
giving you problems.  We thank you for coming here.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

JAMES ALLAN PETROS BARTON: The one is 20 and the two others are very small kids.

MR MALAN: The eldest, is that child already earning, studying, what is the position?

JAMES ALLAN PETROS BARTON: He is actually in the motor industry, but he is still studying motor mechanic.

MR MALAN: So he is a sort of apprentice.

JAMES ALLAN PETROS BARTON: Yes.

MR MALAN: And how old are the other two?

JAMES ALLAN PETROS BARTON: The one is turning six next year and the other one ten.

MR MALAN: So they are five and ten?

JAMES ALLAN PETROS BARTON: Six and ten.

MR MALAN: Already six?

JAMES ALLAN PETROS BARTON: The one is, the youngest one is turning six.

MR MALAN: Okay.  Mr Barton, my colleagues, Prof Meiring and the Chairperson, Mr Tom Manthata, they are both members of the committee of reparations and rehabilitation and they will have to take in detail, into account, also your situation, when they frame policy recommendations to Parliament and the State President, for reparations and rehabilitation.
 I don't think there is anything that you want us to do except sharing your experiences with us, which we really appreciate.  So that people can really get a fuller picture of what happened in this period that we are investigating. This was certain a dimension to the conflict, which is not often heard.  Thank you very much.  
 Some of my colleagues may have questions, I am not 
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 J A P BARTON
sure.  No, that's all. Thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Barton, thank you.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Barton.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Dawn.  I actually have to make a confession that both Leon and Cliffie Brown were actually at the same school that I was at.  They were my juniors by a year and by two years.  So it is a very, every now and again in the work of the Commission you are actually confronted with issues that are actually quite personal and quite subjective.  So I thank you very much for your testimony.  It was very moving.  I thank you also for the insights and ability to put this into a wider context and to remind us, as we often do need reminding, of just how painful the losses were and the experiences to get to this point so that we should be quite appreciative of this new democracy because it cost many lives.  A lot of people suffered, a lot of family members and a lot of people are still living with the scars and the memories.  As you say the fact that we did achieve this democracy makes it possible for us to look back at those things with a new kind of understanding and a new forgiveness.
 On the issue of the people who you mention, the alleged perpetrators, I just want to reinforce what Mr Malan has actually said.  That part of the price of knowing the truth is for those who committed gross human rights violations to know that if they come forward there is a possibility that they can get amnesty and as a consequence one has to give them every possible opportunity to make full disclosure, to explain the context in which these events have taken place.  That is the spirit in which we in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission work.  That we want to give them every opportunity to come forward, but at the same time you are right to point out that we do have certain powers.  We have powers of subpoena and that if people do not actually 
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come forward, there are strong possibilities that people can be prosecuted.  So while we want to hope that perpetrators will come forward, because one of the questions which many witnesses of the Commission always ask is what happened, who did it and why was this done.  We know that only those who were involved can answer those questions.  So it is important for alleged perpetrators to come forward and disclose, but if they do not avail themselves of that opportunity then of the course the Laws of the country will be put into operation.  So we can assure you that the names which you mentioned, that we are aware of these issues, that many of these issues are under investigation, that the Amnesty Committee is also working with a lot of statements and I know that when something affects one very personally and when one is very emotionally close to something, you want results.  So I can understand what you are saying, but the only reassurance I can give you is that these issues are being pursued very, very seriously and at the end of the work of the Commission, certainly, but hopefully before, we will have a lot more answers and a better picture of what happened in the past.  Once again thanks both to you and to Nicole.

DAWN GEORGINA BOTHA: Thank you.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you Mr Clarence.  Your statement is in English so I assume you are going to speak in English or, in English.  Mr Tom Manthata is going to assist you in your evidence, but before you begin I am going to ask Mr Wynand Malan to administer the oath.  Thank you.

MR MALAN: Good morning Mr Clarence.

NEVILLE JAMES CLARENCE: Morning.

MR MALAN: Will you please stand and raise your right hand.

NEVILLE JAMES CLARENCE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you please relax and relate to us the events as they happened to you on that fateful day of the Church Street bombing.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: I felt that it was unnecessary that things like this should happen.  I could not understand why people should die.  It was unnecessary.  It does not matter if it is white or black.  Why should they die?

THOMAS MANTHATA: It is along those basis that we are saying as we condemn these kinds of killings, which way forward and how can you and your family members begin to have sources of support and strength such that can enable us to proceed in a position of reconciliation and peace?
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ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: Firstly, I think that people should be caught, the ones who committed such deeds and secondly I think we should all live together in peace.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Wynand.

MR MALAN: Mrs de Wet, you said that your brother was in Angola.  Was he there for military training when he was 18 years old?

ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: Yes.

MR MALAN: So his trauma comes a lot further than just what has happened.  You are aware of the amnesty process.  We spoke about it this morning.  How do you feel about amnesty and you are talking about people who should be brought to book.  What is your view on these people who were part and parcel of what has happened?

ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: I think I would have to accept it.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that you would have to accept it or do you say that you would accept it with great difficulty?

ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: I would have to accept it.

MR MALAN: You also spoke about the Lord and it seems as if you gain a great deal of strength from your religion and to put this in a framework would you want to put this behind you?

ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: Well, I will never forget what happened to my mother, but I will accept it if I can get it behind me.

MR MALAN: If one can forgive and remember because we cannot forget.  Good, I do not have any further questions.  Thank you very much from my side.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mrs de Wet.  I know it was, obviously, very difficult for you to come and speak.  The
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loss of a loved one, a mother and especially under the circumstances where, as you say in your statement, your mother was the centre of the lives of you and your brother and your family.  To lose someone, and especially under those circumstances, must be very difficult and we are very appreciative of you coming forward because I think that sometimes we actually all need reminding of the costs of the conflict which brought us to this point where we, hopefully, we can start addressing these issues and be honest about it and, hopefully, make some peace.  I think that you coming forward, if it is any help to you and you what you are experiencing now, I think it actually helps that process.  So thank you once again for both you and your husband.  Thanks.

ADRIANA JOHANNA CHRISTINA DE WET: Thank you.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes.  My question is related to, more
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especially, to the one of 26, that I am sure he had to go into what we call National Service.

MRS KLOK: No, he is in the Air Force.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Oh, he went into the National Service.

MRS KLOK: Yes, into the Air Force, yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In the Air Force.

MRS KLOK: That is right.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay.  Were they at any stage able, in a very relaxed fashion, to talk about their exploits in the force.  That is what action have they had and against who?

MRS KLOK: My eldest son never really spoke to me about it.  It is only the smaller one that spoke to me.  He often asked me when his father was coming back.  It was a very difficult to explain to a child that your father is never to return.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Mrs Klok.  No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mrs Klok that you came.  Your statement and evidence is exceptionally important to us.  It is very important for the work of the Commission.  It is important to be able to put everything in an entire perspective.  There were a lot of victims, there were a lot of people involved and we thank you very much that you were able to come here today.  We thank you very much that you came.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: And if our next witness could also please, in the meantime, come to the stand.  That is Mrs Baby Langa.  Mr Tom Manthata will be assisting you in the leading of evidence, giving your testimony.  Mrs Langa, just before we start will you please just stand in order to take the oath.

BABY LANGA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You can speak into the microphone.  If you will just tell us who the lady with you is.

BABY LANGA: She is my cousin.

CHAIRPERSON: And her name please.

BABY LANGA: Pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: What is her name?

BABY LANGA: Paulina Ledwaam.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We would also welcome her and thank her for accompanying you to the stand.  Mr Manthata will be leading you through the evidence, but just before we start.  If you will excuse me a second.  I have just been informed that our statement takers are available in the foyer for any of the people in the audience that would like still to make statements.  Anybody else that has not made a statement in connection with the experience of the 33 years from 1960 to 1993.  So you are welcome, any of you, to approach any of them throughout the day.  Mrs Langa, sorry for the interruption and Mr Manthata will assist you.  Tom,
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please.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Langa I will ask you to tell us about the disappearance of your son Vincent.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DANIEL MNINDWA MABENA: So when the matter was being followed up, there was this linkage between the security corps and those police that were involved.  Because at some stage some of thes policemen talked about the incident during their party, they talked about it that they have pinned such and such a type of a person that stays in Eersterus and blah, blah, blah and they were laughing.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you very much.  Keep to your clean life of not smoking, it is good staying that way. I hand you back to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabena and to your strong supporter, we thank you so much for having availed yourself for coming to give this no small, but broad picture in the South African setting of the past decades. We thank you so much. We hope you will co-operate with us further whenever the need arises.  Thank you so much.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DR BORAINE: The next witness to appear before the Commission is Mr Matsobane Mabusela.  Good afternoon Mr Mabusela.

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: Good afternoon.

DR BORAINE: Welcome to the Commission.  Can you hear me alright?  You can hear my voice in the earphones?

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: You can hear alright?  And you can hear the translation?  You can?

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: I can hear although there is some disturbance with the translation facility.

DR BORAINE: Okay, let us try and see how we go and if it gets too bad then we can change it.  Sorry.  Mr Mabusela, can I ask you to introduce the person who is with you today.

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: She is my wife.

DR BORAINE: You are a very lucky man.  We are very, very glad to welcome your wife with you today and thank you for coming with your husband.  Mr Mabusela, you have suffered a great deal and you are going to tell us about the torture and the solitary confinement that you have experienced and I salute you that you have survived so well.  I am going to ask you please to stand to take the oath.

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Now please be seated and
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2 M K MABUSELA
be very comfortable.  We are just going to check and see if we can improve the communication a little bit.  How it is going now?  You can hear alright?

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: Yes, it is clear.

DR BORAINE: Fine.  Thank you very much.  Mr Mabusela, I am going to lead you now as you tell your story.  You have already given a statement to one of our members of staff, but we would like to hear from you so why do you not start on that day of 1983 when you were coming back from the funeral.  You may start now please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Mabusela.  You have given us a very clear and vivid and full account so I have very, very few questions.  I just want to ask you, and I know it is not easy to talk about, but you told us that you were tortured first by people, by one person in particular hitting you on the head with a rubber pipe and then you mentioned that they tortured you further and you felt as though you were flying.  What exactly did they do?

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: When torturing me they tied my fingers onto something and then they pressed a switch on the wall.  That is why I found myself flying in the space.  The other people were not being tortured the same way as I was.  They were only crying and Bruce Lee came along and he warned this person not to do that because I would end up dying and then they released us thereafter and I left the other group.  I do not know what happened to them from then.  Especially the one who was wearing the t-shirt with an ANC emblem.

DR BORAINE: I notice that you are a Councillor for the Northern Pretoria Metropolitan sub-structure in Ward 16 and
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10 M K MABUSELA
I think it is a great tribute, first, that the struggle has produced a democracy at national, provincial and local level, but that you, despite the treatment, the torture, the electrical shocks, the solitary confinement, have not just lain on the side on the side of the street, but you have stood up and you are now participating as a Councillor and, personally, I wish you well and all those who are continuing in a very different way, to build and consolidate a democracy.  Thank you.

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: I also thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, we thank you.  You have already heard about the fruits that we have reaped from what you went through.  We also thank you in the way you presented your story to us and you look not angry with anyone because you said you wish that the new dispensation could continue to enhance peace and harmony.  We thank you for taking part in the development of our nation.

MATSOBANE KATIBE MABUSELA: I thank you.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

MR MALAN: Mrs Mafuya, your testimony about the body of your son having been removed, police claiming it and you getting it back again with all the cuts.  It seems as if an operation had been performed, as if there was an autopsy done.  Have you ever had a further explanation for that and what people were searching for and what was found?  Was there anything in the court said about it?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: The explanation that I received was that they found bullets on his body.  That is what they were looking for.

MR MALAN: Were they busy with some kind of investigation into the shooting or do you have any idea why they were looking for the bullets?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: The case was still continuing.  They did read about it in the newspapers.

MR MALAN: Would you still have a case number for the case that you sued the police, the Minister of Police?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: I cannot remember it by heart, but I have my diary where I wrote it down.

MR MALAN: We would appreciate it if you will also give us
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that information so we can have a look into that case too, but thank you very much.  I have no other questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much both Mr and Mrs Mafuya for coming to speak about Godfrey and like with the other cases, this is also a case which we will continue to investigate and hopefully we will be able to come back with some answers.  Thank you very much.
 I would just ask us to stand please while the witnesses leave and once the witnesses have left we will take a lunch break and we will come back at two o' clock.  So could we please stand while the witnesses leave.  
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG