Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: Well let me put it, there was shooting from all around you, from all directions I think your phrase was, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: No I'm not saying that, I am saying that due to the sound of the firearms which were fired I couldn't tell where the sound was coming from but where the shooting started, it was the people who were on the ground who started shooting and then thereafter the people on top of the building started shooting.

MR TIPP: Well I'm just going to put to you in conclusion, that there's evidence and the witnesses from the ANC say that shots had been fired from amongst your crowd before they fired, and that they fired because there was a charge, an attack on them.

MR MHLABA: Why were we attacking them, if they say we were?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I don't propose to debate the matter, that completes our questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Just one aspect Mr Chair with your leave.  Mr Mhlaba had you prior to this day taken part in any Zulu marches?

MR MHLABA: Yes it was not my first march with the Zulu marchers.

MR DORFLING: And had you subsequent to this day taken part in any Zulu marches?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

JUDGE NGCOBO: It was put to you that you gathered at the point where you say you did so that you can attack Shell House, and you denied that?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we didn't mean to attack.

JUDGE NGCOBO: You then mentioned that there were women in the group.

MR MHLABA: Yes they were with us.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Were there any women in front, as far as you can recall?

MR MHLABA: I would say amongst all the groups since we are just mixed, there were women in our group and even after we formed one group there were women.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mhlaba, you have stated that you were in the middle of the second group and Mr Tipp has tried to ascertain exactly where you were once the two groups had merged.  I just want you to estimate, probably by pointing if you can, from where you are to any part of this room, if you can, to show us exactly where you were by the time the two groups had merged.  I do understand that you were right at the back but I would like to just get a mental picture of exactly where you were once the two groups had merged.

MR LAX: Sorry, in relation to what, if I could just add that?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Once you came to the second group, where exactly were you before you started doing anything, before you started moving?

MR MHLABA: As I've explained before, when we came to meet the first group I would say from the female interpreter, that's the distance from where I am, I personally as a person who was in the second group from behind, I would say it will have been a distance from here to the interpreter's box.

SISI KHAMPEPE: This first group, if you can estimate as to how far it was, what distance will you give from where you are sitting, how far was it from you?

MR MHLABA: You mean in respect to the second group?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I mean at the time when you joined the first group to form one.  You said when you arrived, Mbatha has already stopped them so that they can unite with you to form one group.

MR MHLABA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At that time, you said that you were about the distance from where you are to the interpreter.

MR MHLABA: I will say no, in the first group it will be from where I am, just from - if they were starting from here ...(witness is demonstrating) and ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence, if that is true, it will mean that you were not able, you're not in a position to see what's happening in front?

MR MHLABA: Yes, as I've already stated I'm not sure of what happened inside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And again you wont be in a position to see what Mbatha was doing in front of the group?

MR MHLABA: Yes I would be lying to say I know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And again you are not in a position to say that the people who were in front of the one group, they were people who were marching peacefully or otherwise?

MR MHLABA: No I can comment on that one, if they were doing something out of our mandate you could see, because you could see that.  However, unless if someone went out of the group and do something aside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You mean beside getting out of group, you won't be able to know what was happening in front?

MR MHLABA: Yes I won't be able to see exactly what the people in front did.

MR MHLABA: As you communicated through shouting?

MR MHLABA: Yes that was the case.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Mbatha told you that there was going to be a meeting on the 28th, was that an order, or was that merely a request?

MR MHLABA: It was a request because we were requested by the King to listen to his wishes and also the things that were requested from the Pretoria, the Government, and we wanted to find out as to how - what came out from the meetings in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't go to work on that day?

MR MHLABA: Yes I didn't go to work on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel that you were compelled to attend this meeting?

MR MHLABA: I wasn't compelled because being compelled, it means someone have to tell you to do something that you wouldn't like to do.  However, I also wish that I'll become part of what the King was going to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  Did you pay your own trainfare or was that paid for you by somebody else?

MR MHLABA: I won't know exactly who paid.  We were told by the leaders or the Indunas that we will travel by train, we didn't know who was supposed to pay for the fare.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To your own knowledge Mr Mhlaba, it is true that all the people who were getting into the train, they didn't pay for themselves?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  Are there any further questions you wish to put?

MR DORFLING: There's no questions that arise from the Committee's questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, thank you very much.  Yes thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well now as I understand the position there are going to be no further witnesses in this matter.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I would like to indicate that on behalf of the objectors for whom I appear there are no further witnesses.  I've also been requested by Ms van der Westhuizen who is not present, to also indicate that on her behalf there's no further witnesses to be called by the objectors.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, as I've indicated yesterday, we've got no further witnesses to call.  However, as I've also indicated yesterday, that there is a number, it's only four pages of the ballistic expert evidence which I wish to hand up to the Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR PRETORIUS: Unfortunately the memo that I drafted had not been typed by the time we left this morning.  However, I would only like then to point out that the three or four major things appearing in this four pages for the benefit of the Committee.  The first is that on page 7267 from line 20 to the bottom thereof, it appears that the witness testified that 38 AK47 shots were fired from the south-western corner of Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: The second is, which has already been canvassed and accepted by the applicants, that no shots were fired in the direction of the south-western corner of Shell House.  That appears on 7268 from approximately line 19 to the bottom thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.