Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Mr De Klerk made an example about me that it will be difficult for us to implicate leaders because we have light sentences - 15 to 20 years.  He showed us a membership card, he's also an IFP member who was willing to help us, but he didn't want us to put Inkatha in a bad light.  Therefore I think he's one of the people who played a role in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: And just - sorry Ms - how did it come about that you completed the other application form then, the one that was signed on the 26th of September 1997, if you look at page 418?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Because I realised that I was running out of time and I had not sent a true reflection of events, I asked a certain person from Dassenhoek to get me a TRC investigator's phone numbers.  This he did and captain Mbata came to see me, together with Mr Mudlala, to whom I related the entire story.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ndlovu you were present in court at your trial when witnesses were testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: We can assume that, I don't think we need to get the answer.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chairman I was trying to avoid it being said that "how do you know that he was not rude in court and  evidence was given in his absence", the criminal procedure act makes room for that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I know but I think we can assume - he said he was there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember a certain Mr Dladla testifying?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I remember him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember what Mr Dladla testified - when Mr Dladla testified, he testified about the two girls and Ntombela being killed when he came to rescue the two girls you were assaulting?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I don't remember him putting it that way.  What he said was that he had peeped out of a toilet window when he saw us meeting these girls.  He said I had a shotgun and my colleague had an HMC.  He was not able to specify the guns but he was just describing them.  He said we molested these girls, but in actual fact I did not molest anyone because if I remember correctly, ME Ndlovu started playing with a child that this girl was carrying.  And then we left these girls, and thereafter met Bongane.
	These girls had already disappeared by that time.  The girls even mentioned when testified that they had heard gunshot from far away, and when they turned they saw that this boy had been shot.  I think that was her testimony.  But what this person said was not the truth because he peeped out of a window, and that window was very small, he couldn't have seen.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson I ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you can proceed Mr - if I can be granted this indulgence, Mr Mpshe if you question Mr Ndlovu on the evidence given by Mr Dladla, please bear in mind the fact the judge in the trial a quo stated that Mr Dladla's capacity for accurate observation as to what happened had to be taken with a greater circumspection.  So you really have to be fair to Mr Ndlovu by having that in mind.

MR WILLS: Yes, and further if I may just add Ms Committee Member, thank you for that - on page 12 of the judgment the judge makes the finding that Mr Dladla's evidence must be viewed with considerable reserve.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't want to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Stewart, Mr Mpshe what are you trying to establish here, that Mr Ndlovu molested those girls?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I was going to state the purpose of my quoting this before the Committee Member and my learned friend jutted in.  I was going to state that the purpose is not to question him on Mr Dladla's evidence, but to make good that which I would have - I could have - the impression I created about such things - summary of substantial facts.  I was just quoting this to indicate that the very summary of substantial facts are substantiated in the evidence, but I do not cross-examine him on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but he was acquitted on that charge - was there not a charge - what was he acquitted on here?

MR WILLS: Sorry, he wasn't charged with that in the trial.  There was no charge, he was charged with ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No charge, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So I was just trying to put the record straight, that the summary of facts has been substantiated in the evidence, it is not cross-examination on him on what was said by Mr Dladla, and that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

MR STEWART: Sorry, if I could just make a final comment on that issue, the summary of substantial facts was not confirmed in the evidence, rather the reverse happened, and the judge made no findings in regard to that aspect of the indictment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hewitt, just on the point that you raised about the - when the case was finalised, I note that the judgment in this matter was delivered on the 1st of October 1993.  So I think at the time in 1996, you know, the trial was - had been completed for some years.

MR HEWITT: Yes I have now seen that for the first time as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu I have understood the reason advanced by you for having submitted the application dated the 12th of December to have been to protect the IFP at the advice of captain Shlengwa and the legal representatives, and I have understood you to be saying that the IFP was not encouraging you to apply for amnesty since it had no confidence in the process of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  If that is so, why was it necessary for them to even come to you to request you to apply for amnesty?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Who are you referring to?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm referring to captain Shlengwa and the legal representative who was accompanying him, that you've referred to as Mr De Klerk.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I explained that they said that whoever wants to volunteer, but knowing very well that they are not going to implicate the IFP, may submit an application, but they will not be able to represent anybody who implicated the IFP.  Therefore those who submitted applications at that time, we did as they had directed us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: My concern is your evidence that they have no confidence in the process, yet they went out of their way to come to you to give you application forms and request you to complete those application forms for purposes of being part of the process that they had no confidence in.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: We also troubled them, we would phone Ulundi - I even wrote a letter to Dr M G Buthelezi asking him what he was doing about us, the people who had been fighting for Inkatha, and he said I should speak to captain Shlengwa and Nicky Brits - people who frequented the prison.  I told him that these people had never given us anything concrete because we were now in jail, our families were in hardships, but they were not helping us.  Therefore Dr Buthelezi directed us to these people, these people who were not helping us in any way.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes very briefly Mr Chairperson, just on that matter arising.  Your evidence is to the effect that Mr De Klerk, captain Shlengwa and a person by the name of Nicky Brits attended at the prison and assisted you in the first amnesty application that you submitted.  Is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I think that is what I was explaining.

MR WILLS: And that your distinct impression was that you were prevented from putting the correct version of what occurred and what you wanted to say to the Amnesty Committee because they wanted to protect the interests of the IFP and the senior members of the IFP, and that's ...(intervention)

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that is why this first application arose?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.