Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Johannes Jacobus Viktor, that is correct Chairman.  He was the commanding officer of the Investigative Unit at Mamelodi which was involved in the investigation of instances of unrest or rioting. He was attached at the Detective Branch, not attached to the Security Branch.
	I spoke to him telephonically on a particular day because I was concerned with that which he experienced in his working circumstances, I invited him to visit me at my office, Chair.  On a particular day, he arrived there on a particular day ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I think you're just going a little bit too quickly.  You can go a little bit slower.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: My apologies Chair.  He arrived at my office in the company of a certain Hechter and one other person whose surname I cannot recall.  I have subsequently been informed that his surname was van Jaarsveld.
	The conversation between us or among us concerned the tremendous amount of intimidation which had ruled at that time, which was common at that time, particularly in the Black areas, intimidation which brought about a situation which did not allow the Police and the Investigative Unit to achieve their purpose with regard to cases against persons responsible for such intimidation.  
	It was not possible to bring persons before the courts.  People were scared to come to the fore to give testimony.  The people who were responsible for the intimidation were often known.  The houses of our Black members were attacked with petrol bombs to such an extent that many of them had to flee out of their homes.  In other words Chair, the situation was impossible.  If one wanted to behave in a normal manner that was simply an unbearable situation.

MR VISSER: Were any solutions to the problems discussed on this day when your son and Hechter and van Jaarsveld met you in your office?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct Chair.  From my side there had been a suggestion, since you know who the people who are responsible why don't you intimidate them back?  Why don't you respond with your own intimidation?  Chase these people whom you know to be responsible and for whom you are looking, chase them day and night.

MR VISSER: What do you intend to convey with the expression "jaag hom"?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: In other words this person must have no opportunity to continue in peace with their intimidation amongst the general populace and against the police officers.  This person must know that they are being hunted at their friends, at their families, amongst those who sympathise with them, they must be looked for and hunted down day and night.

MR VISSER: Was your intention, with that expression, or the way in which your son, Hechter and van Jaarsveld understood that suggestion of yours, that that boiled down to eliminating such a person?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair, not at all.  I also said that our Black members and their families are under considerable strain, that there is much pressure being exerted against them or on them, should a police officer's home be attacked with a petrol bomb, and should it be known who was responsible for such action, then that person's home should also be attacked with a petrol bomb.

MR VISSER: May I just interrupt at this stage.  Did you, during this conversation or at any time use the word "to act pro-actively"?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Chair no, I don't have that word in my vocabulary.

MR VISSER: Now the three persons who were with you while you were discussing the situation which you have now illustrated, were they under your command, any one of them?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair.

MR VISSER: Insofar as the command structure in the South African Police was concerned at that time, were you authorised to give them instructions for them to be obliged to carry out?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Not as far as their work would have been concerned, no.  I want to mention again, having been a Security Branch commanding officer previously myself I knew that one would not receive instructions with regard to your work from anyone other than from the structure of the Security Branch itself.

MR VISSER: Now did you intend whatever you said at that meeting to be interpreted as an instruction or what was your intention?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: It had merely been a suggestion Chair.  In the first place I had mentioned that my son was one of the investigative officers or investigating officers, and since I did not consider this to have been an instruction I subsequently, later in that day, phoned Brigadier Cronje, who was the commanding officer of Pretoria, the Northern Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Was that telephone call made on the same day as the meeting in your office with your son and the other two gentlemen?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct Chair.

MR VISSER: Please tell the Committee what transpired during the course of that telephone conversation.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Chair, Brigadier Cronje and I know one another well.  For many years we have known each other.  I said to Brigadier Cronje, I mentioned to him what the members had discussed with me.  I mentioned to him what the problems were that they were experiencing, the tremendous problems they were experiencing with regard to intimidation amongst the general populace and also with regard to the Black staff members of the South African Police.  I repeated to him what my suggestion had been to these members.

MR VISSER: You may continue General.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is all that transpired between myself and Brigadier Cronje.

ADV DE JAGER: General was the intention not that the suggestion should have been carried out?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Chair, I cannot decide for this person.  These were junior members who visited me in my office, it was simply good manners, etiquette, to mention to Brigadier Cronje what I discussed with these junior members.  I could not make decisions for him to act in a particular manner.

ADV DE JAGER: I understand that and that is why you gave him no command or instruction, you made a suggestion to him with regard to a potential route of action?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes it had been a suggestion how this particular problem might possibly be addressed.

ADV DE JAGER: And you considered this to be wise counsel?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: In my view I did consider this to have been a good suggestion, yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  How do you believe did Brigadier Cronje understand what you were saying to him during that conversation?  Do you believe that he understood it to be an instruction or how do you believe did he understand it?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Chair, I believe that Brigadier Cronje accepted this as a suggestion.

MR VISSER: Was, in that conversation or at any time thereafter, did Brigadier Cronje discuss with you an action plan or a contingency plan in order to put into place or into operation what you had suggested to him?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Not ever again, no.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I am referring now to page 142.  There are other references as well.  In the middle of the page it's line 13 onwards Mr Chairman, it goes to the bottom of the page.
	During the telephone conversation did you at any stage suggest that Brigadier Cronje should embark on a full-scale war, guerilla warfare?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair.

MR VISSER: According to your recollection of that conversation was there anything that you said that might have reasonably induced him to draw that inference?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair.