Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR VISSER: For so far as it may be accepted or assumed that you were as it were also in possession of those weapons, you also apply for amnesty in regard to the unlawful possession of such ammunition and weapons as were with you on that particular evening.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You apply for malicious damage to property in regard to the Corolla vehicle in regard to the vehicle of Mr Shabalala.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: And any lesser offence or delict which may be supported by the facts, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, would you allow me a moment?
Yes, perhaps you may be able to shed light on this and perhaps not, please say what your knowledge is.  Do you know who of Mr Nyanda and Mr Gordhan was arrested first on the 12th of July?  Do you have knowledge of that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr chairman, I'm of the firm opinion that we arrested Mr Nyanda first.

MR VISSER: Would the information about that have gone out to other people, about that arrest?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It would have, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you know where van der Westhuizen was on that particular day, what his duties were?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he was doing a surveillance and observation at Brickhill Road.

MR VISSER: Brickhill Road?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Wasserman, I take it, from the evidence, that you were one of Col Botha's most trusted and selected operatives?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think so, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, he chose to divulge the very secrecy of the fact that this person was an informer, the fact that Mr Ndaba was an informer to you and he wouldn't have divulged that even to the general of the police at that time.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, I don't know what he said to the General, Sir, but he divulged it to me.

MR WILLS: Yes and he also involved you in his scheme to hide the fact of the arrest of these two comrades from the other police members. is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman there was only one really arrested, the other party was a charade arrest.

MR WILLS: Mr Wasserman, I'm not wanting to play with words, I'm talking about the two people that you had arrested, detained, illegally abducted, kidnapped whichever you want to phrase it, but the two people Mr Shabalala and Mr Ndaba, my question is that the fact that you had these people was only revealed to you and you were trusted to assist in this plan to hide this fact from other policemen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Were you told to hide this fact from other policemen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was a unit, yes, it was to remain a secret.

MR WILLS: Yes, because Gen Steyn has conceded during his cross-examination that the members of de Beer's unit, of de Beer's investigation team who were investigating on a national level the Operation Vula, were looking for these people and so you were part of the plan to tell these people that you didn't know where they were?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Did you stand guard or did you stay, should I rather say, at the safe-house in Verulam, from the time of arrest of Ndaba, that is the 7th of July 1990 until their murder?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Intermittently so, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Where did you sleep at night during that period?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: In the same house, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, and the only time you left the house was for the operations.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now it's glaringly apparent from your affidavit and also from your application which just refers to Botha's application and I think, I'm not sure but it was Botha's and possibly Steyn's, that you were not involved in surveillance operations prior to the arrest of Ndaba in regard to the safe houses that are mentioned, Brickhill Road and Knoll.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Sorry Sir, when was I involved with them, the surveillance?

MR WILLS: After the arrest of Ndaba.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Was I involved with surveillance after the arrest of Ndaba?

MR WILLS: No.  Sorry if I'm confusing you.  It seems to me that the only time you got involved with that surveillance operation was after the arrest of Ndaba, after the 7th of July in other words.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that's so, my personal involvement yes.

MR WILLS: Yes, now who else was in your unit, this select unit?  I know that it must have involved the other applicants and they are Mr du Preez, Mr van der Westhuizen, but there must have been more persons than that because you were observing two houses, is that not so?  So who were you observing, the Knoll, the safe-house known as the Knoll with after the 7th of July?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was with Mr du Preez.

MR WILLS: And you said that you had a second car.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, you said a few minutes ago you only started after the 7th of July.  How long after the 7th?  For how long had you been observing this house when the arrest took place?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm not too sure, it was a couple of, me personally, it was a couple of days on and off.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just clarify something that's arisen, if you don't mind?  You only got involved on the 7th?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes. Mr Chairman, I got involved when I was called to CR Swart.

MR LAX: And it was only after the 7th that you began to observe anything?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I continued with my normal duties, predominantly Swaziland operations.

MR LAX: You say you continued with your normal duties?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was continuing with my normal duties.

MR LAX: Up until that time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Now, in terms of the observations that you went on, can you recall when those were and how many there were?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was many evenings, it was quite a few evenings and afternoons and I would relieve and be relieved.

MR LAX: Yes.  Now who was working with you on all those observations besides du Preez?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was principally du Preez and there were, I think once or twice or maybe even thrice the chaps from C20 were asked to come and accompany the Durban guy.

MR LAX: And those are the people who are mentioned in the papers who were present at the safe-house?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR LAX: McCarter, van Zyl, I think it is and others.  I can't remember all the names, but it's not that relevant right now.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's them.

MR LAX: I think there's four of them.  Now, on the day you picked up Nyanda, who was in the other car?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was members of that C20.  I recall only one person's name and that's Roeland.

MR LAX: And the four of you were staked out there observing this place, the Knoll?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Carry on Mr Wills, sorry to ...

MR WILLS: Thank you..  Now you say you have knowledge that another person was at the other house in Brickhill Road.  I'm sorry, I didn't get the name of that person.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was van der Westhuizen.

MR WILLS: Van der Westhuizen and who was he with?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know.

MR WILLS: And I would assume that it's probably that there was also a second car there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I have no idea at all what the logistics would have been for that surveillance.