Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

DR TSOTSI: Why did Tinage say you must stop shooting?  Was it because everybody was dead in the house or was it for any other reason, why did he call upon you to stop and run away?

MANDLA MADUNA: I do not know.

DR TSOTSI: You never asked him?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I never got the opportunity to ask him.  For that matter, you don't question an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed.

MR FORTUIN: Did you have an opportunity, did some of the PAC members or the members of the Task Force, after the incident and while you were in prison, come to visit you and did you question them about it?

CHAIRPERSON: Question them about what?

MR FORTUIN: About the incident, the fact that there were women in the house, who the people were, etc?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the people from the PAC came to visit him while he was in prison, they were not there at the shooting.  He was there at the shooting, so how could he have been asking them questions about who was there?

MR FORTUIN: The question is Mr Chairperson, whether he was interested in finding out who were the people that lived there, and that was killed in the process.  Obviously he has been charged for that incident, so he might just be interested to hear who he killed in the process?

CHAIRPERSON: After the trial, during the trial or before the trial or when?

MR FORTUIN: During and after the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: At the trial he would know who is involved.

MR FORTUIN: I will leave that question be Mr Chairperson.
	After the incident Mr Maduna, what did you do?  Did you meet other people that were also in the vicinity and was walking there or were you alone, absolutely alone, only you and Tinage and Welcome, were only the three of you walking after the incident to wherever you went?

MANDLA MADUNA: Do you mean when we left the house?  There were people who were moving around the area and we too were on our own way.

MR FORTUIN: Did you walk with these people after the incident, or didn't you associate with them after the incident?

MANDLA MADUNA: Who are you referring to?

MR FORTUIN: I say did you meet other people besides the two, Tinage and Kamagen, did you meet other people and walk with them after the incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Other people meaning other people of his political group or just ordinary citizens?

MR FORTUIN: Any people for that matter Mr Chairperson.

MANDLA MADUNA: How walk around with somebody else, what do you mean?  I am not clear, do you mean did I walk away?  The people I was moving with, it was Tinage and that other ...[intervention]

MR FORTUIN: Did you - I will ask you again, did you after the incident, join an other group that was in the vicinity and walk with them?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.  I was captured then.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  I see that is in contrast as to what the Court found.  The Court found that after the incident you joined a group of people, you were walking with the weapon in your hand and you were on the outside of the group and when the kombi approached you, only then did you run away?

MANDLA MADUNA: That was the evidence given by the police and that was not true.  That is what I told the Court that there was no such a thing.

MR FORTUIN: You say that you have remorse for what you have done.  Did you ever try and make contact with the family to express that remorse?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.  No, I never did so.

MR FORTUIN: Will anyone be called up today or whenever the proceedings conclude, to confirm your membership of the organisation?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR FORTUIN: Will anyone, do you know whether anyone during these proceedings will be called up to confirm your membership of the PAC?

INTERPRETER: The question is not clear for the witness.

MR FORTUIN: I want to know during these proceedings, are you going to call somebody to confirm that you were a member of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: When it is necessary.

MR FORTUIN: Did you have any intentions of calling somebody before I asked the question?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I have no such intention, but if the TRC requires so, that can be done.

MR FORTUIN: Do you have any intentions of calling Mbulelo Victor Sam to give evidence as that he was the person who supplied you with weapons?

MANDLA MADUNA: Firstly, Victor Sam never gave me weapons, weapons were provided to me by the Commander. Victor Sam only gave the Commander the bag full of weapons.  If the TRC wants to call him to come and give evidence ...[intervention]

MR FORTUIN: Is there anyone that you are going to call to confirm that you were a member of the Task Team of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR FORTUIN: Are you going to call any witness to confirm that you were a member of the Task Team of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: If the Commission requires me to do so, that would be done.

MR FORTUIN: The people that were involved in the incident, and I am talking about Shaun, Wella, Sipiwe, Kamagen and Tinage, those who are alive, are you going to call anyone of them to testify on your behalf?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat that question?

MR FORTUIN: Are you going to call anyone of the people that you have mentioned in your affidavit, to testify during these proceedings?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.  Shaun is no more.  Tinage, I do not know his whereabouts, and Kamagen because I am incarcerated in prison.

MR FORTUIN: Your decision to apply for amnesty, were you ever asked by the PAC to make the application, were you ever visited by the Regional Leadership of the PAC to assist you to make this application?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, the form, I thought of filling my own form because the Commission is made for people who want to come and confess.  That was the reason why I filled the form, because I want to come and explain all I did, so that I can be pardoned, and be pardoned by those whom I wronged.

MR FORTUIN: As you explained previously, you are a disciplined member of the PAC, in that you follow orders.  Didn't you think it was necessary that you consult your organisation when you want to make application for amnesty?

MANDLA MADUNA: You see, you don't simply do anything as a PAC member.  It was the PAC itself who encouraged its members who were in prison, to go to the TRC.  So that if the PAC did not want us to appear in front of the TRC, I too would not have applied.

MR FORTUIN: You see Mr Maduna, my previous question to you was, did the PAC assist you in the process of making this application.  You said you got the forms and you applied. 	Now suddenly you change your answer to include that perspective as well.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said the PAC encouraged its members to apply.  You see, that is different from saying that they assisted him in applying.  They encouraged all their members to apply and that is why he is applying.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairman, the question is Mr Maduna, did they assist you in any way in making this application?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: In what way did they assist you?

MANDLA MADUNA: The PAC appointed someone who visited prisons, helping Africans to fill in these forms making applications to the TRC.

MR FORTUIN: Who was this person Mr Maduna?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was Leklapa Mpahlele.

MR FORTUIN: Did you consult your organisation in drawing up this affidavit, making this application?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR FORTUIN: Did you consult your organisation when you drew up this affidavit?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: When was this?

MANDLA MADUNA: June.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  And who did you speak to during June, during your consultation in drawing up this affidavit, or making this application?

MANDLA MADUNA: I did not talk to the PAC about affidavits, I did them with Sis Nona, the Advocate, but the PAC knew that I was to appear before the TRC as a member of the Task Force.