Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

MR LAX: Yes, the thrust of my question to you is much more far reaching than the nature of their discussion with C20, in other words the two deceased and C20, the discussion that they had, the thrust of my question is that the impression gained and confirmed except in one respect which I'll come back to, was that these people of C20 were busy with their own work, they had a different job to do, they were there purely by chance and Botha told us he thought it might be helpful to them if they had a chance to speak to Ndaba and Shabalala so he allowed them that opportunity.  He gave no evidence of them being involved in any observations or anything else of that kind and he goes further, he says I want to put it very clearly that at no stage did they have any knowledge of any unlawful acts by members of the Durban Security Branch with regard to Ndaba or Shabalala.  How could they not have known there was something irregular in those people being held at a safe house?  We're talking about experienced security operatives here, Makata, Van den Berg, Van Dyk and Roeland, we're not talking about low-ranking people without experience?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, regarding that they could possibly have thought that we are in the process to recruit the people which would have been normal under the circumstances.  I believed that they had been involved in such cases where people had been arrested and were in the process of being recruited.

MR LAX: Well they wouldn't have thought that Ndaba was in the process of being turned, he was your informer from his whole attitude and demeanour it would have been obvious that he was co-operating with them?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Obviously on your version the same can't be said of Shabalala?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct but regarding them they didn't know whether the person was in this recruitment process and what was going to happen to him.

MR LAX: From your description of Shabalala and from Wasserman's description of Shabalala, there was no way there could have been any, under any illusion, that he was in the process of being turned?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I would not know what they were thinking at that stage.

MR LAX: But you who hardly even questioned the man came to the conclusion that the use of him as an informer was out of the question, that's been your evidence?  It never even occurred to you as a possibility because of the way his demeanour was and you've told us that already?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So the same would have been self evident to the other four, from C20 who even had more to do with him by questioning him than you did?  Do you see my point?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Possibly they saw that this person was resisting?

MR LAX: I'll leave it at that.  Thank you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, I just want to clarify some confusion.  If you turn to page 18 of the bundle where reference is made to options regarding Shabalala.  Now the word options implies choices and then we have no co-operation given, not prepared to testify, not prepared to become an informer.  Surely those couldn't be options.  No, it's not you that wrote this, it's Mr Botha's evidence, it seems to me that he refers to reasons why Shabalala had to be killed and the same also in the case of Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you agree?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes it seems to be the case.

ADV BOSMAN: And then we can have a look at your answers that you had given.  If those are then reasons did he ever discuss the reasons for the killing with you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reasons for the killing of the persons that came over a period of a week.

ADV BOSMAN: Now the options would then be what do we do now if there were reasons to do something with them.  Did he discuss those options with you?  In other words we kill Shabalala and we let Ndaba go or we kill both of them, did he discuss the options with you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was discussed but as far as I can recall Botha had already made up his mind, he informed me about it.

ADV BOSMAN: And then the third issue is that he could have discussed the options on how to kill them, was that discussed with you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And whose suggestion was it that it had to be done with the wire, the hessian and the poles and that the bodies had to be thrown into the river?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think with the decision to throw the people into the river, we then discussed these issues that the bodies would then surface and we then decided or discussed it jointly that what we would do to let the bodies sink and how they would be shot.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if the options regarding to how it had to take place, if that had been discussed in detail, why did you go along with this specific option?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: This option looked the easiest for me at this stage, the most acceptable.

ADV BOSMAN: Why Mr Du Preez?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, to dig graves takes a lot of time and the possibility that you would be detected and it also then also means that you would be a few hours on the scene and that those were the considerations.  This would happen quickly and we would be able to finalise it quickly.

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps not as quickly but perhaps quicker and less of a risk?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that after it was over you took Shabalala's vehicle out of the garage and you and Wasserman drove it to beyond Verulam?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The two of you travelled together?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went to the dump site and burnt it?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took you home?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Van der Westhuizen and Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: So they followed you along did they and participated?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was this done?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That was directly after we came back, that was in the early hours of the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: After you came back from where?  From putting the bodies?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: If I may Chair, just there was one follow up on the question which I had omitted to ask and which was asked by Advocate Bosman and that was this discussion about the methods of elimination, you all discussed this?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Botha and myself discussed it.

MR LAX: Only the two of you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: As far as I can remember.

MR LAX: You see Wasserman testified that he found this method totally strange in the circumstances having in mind all the other options that were open to you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He didn't give that kind of indication then, perhaps it might have been strange for him.  That was a method that Botha and myself had decided upon, I don't know if he perhaps didn't like it but he didn't give the impression.

MR LAX: Now this business of killing people and burying them, you've been involved in that before?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: It didn't take you that long before?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes it did.