Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR WILLIAMS: The very last sentence.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: This was information that I had received from Gakkie.  I did not confirm it.

MR WILLIAMS: But I put it to you that that information is factually incorrect, the information pertaining to Chris Ferndale is factually incorrect?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be.  If I may, I just want to ask, you said just now that you yourself had not been detained in terms of Section 29 Regulations.   The statement that I believe to be your statement, in Bundle B, page 4, is that your statement ...

MR WILLIAMS: I ask the questions here, Mr van Zyl, but maybe to be fair to you, I have been detained under the Emergency Regulations, not under Section 29.  There is a difference, there is a big difference.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Very well.

MR WILLIAMS: I have put it to you, I can go through this list and point out various inaccuracies to you, and patently wrong information.  The crux of it is that I put it to you that the Kewtown Youth Movement, was never involved in acts of sabotage or terror or any violent activity.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is not the information that I received.  I acted as a result, I acted against the Early Learning Centre as a result of an instruction that I had received.

MR WILLIAMS: Are you prepared to accept that that information could be wrong?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I am not prepared to accept that.

MR WILLIAMS: So on what basis, on what basis are you saying that you are prepared, or firstly let me ask you, do you accept that all the information that you received, were correct, all the allegations that you received, was that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know.  I did not test all these allegations.  I cannot say what of the information is factually correct and what is factually incorrect, I cannot tell you.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, can you tell us before the bomb incident, what other projects were successfully completed by your group?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I only know of the projects that I have already given evidence to.

MR WILLIAMS: Were successfully completed by your group, were there any projects that were successfully completed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My evidence-in-chief dealt with all the projects that I know about, and that I was involved in and that I know about.

MR WILLIAMS: Can I ask you, was there one project that was successfully completed?  You had various projects, you had the burning of a kombi,  which never materialised, you had the project, the elimination of Min Omar, the elimination of Gavin Evans, whatever, can you tell the Committee of one project that was successfully completed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Apart from the Early Learning Centre?

MR WILLIAMS: Prior to the Early Learning Centre.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, placing the monkey, it was also just before the Early Learning Centre.

MR WILLIAMS: Except that particular incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Nothing else that I know of.

MR WILLIAMS: Then it is obvious that you joined, you joined the CCB in May, towards the end of May, June 1988, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is my evidence.

MR WILLIAMS: Now for a period of almost 15 months, not one project was successfully completed by the entire Region 6, is that what you want the Committee to believe?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would like the Committee to believe it, and I have also explained it like that.  We have been inactive up to the 1st of January 1989, so in other words before our meal, I gave evidence to this effect, we were still in our baby shoes, the organisation, and Region 2 specifically.
	For a period of approximately eight months, we  were operational.

MR WILLIAMS: To concede that for a period of eight months, you were unable to successfully complete one mission, or one project?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, and I almost get the impression that you wanted us to be a lot more successful?

MR WILLIAMS: And you would also agree that a vast amount of resources and finances were expended on these so-called missions?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: And not one mission was successfully completed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Those are the facts.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you agree with me that those expenditure was basically a complete waste of taxpayers' money?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not believe so, no, I don't believe so.

MR WILLIAMS: At the time when the bombing incident occurred, or prior to that, was any pressure exerted on you to complete a mission successfully?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already given my evidence in this regard, the pressure had been placed on me to finalise the Early Learning Centre project, I have given evidence according to this.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that why the Early Learning Centre was, the bomb, was detonated without sufficient verification or background checking or why that project was hastily convened?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not think that that project was done in haste, and I think that there doesn't exist any substantial proof to say that it was done incorrectly, no evidence.

MR WILLIAMS: Was it your modus operandi to fulfil an operation or to execute an operation a day after the first in-house was held?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not necessarily.  But where did that happen?

MR WILLIAMS: Was that not the case here?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Wasn't the permission given for the go ahead of the operation, a day prior to the actual bombing?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The permission was given to me a day before we gave execution, but the in-house was held several weeks before I got permission.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the info that I can recall, correct me if I am wrong, Mr van Zyl, was that the remote, the obtaining of the device to set it off, wasn't that collected by Gen Webb, from the source where it came from, and that would infer that he had given his authority at the second in-house?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that instrument was received a day before the explosion, was that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr van Zyl, did you trust Gakkie?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, to a large extent.

MR WILLIAMS: Then why did you deem it necessary to accompany him when ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already given evidence about this.

MR WILLIAMS: But isn't that an indication that you distrusted him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think it was an indication of the amount of care that I took.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but even on that occasion, you breached your own code?  You were not supposed to be at the scene where a high risk operation was being conducted, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: And you breached that rule, actually, that order?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Once again, I did what I thought to be the best and the safest at that stage, that is why I did it.  There  is no hidden agenda behind the fact that I accompanied Gakkie to the Early Learning Centre.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, but isn't that a clear indication that you did not trust Gakkie fully?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I am telling you that I trusted him to a large extent, but on that afternoon, the thought just occurred to me that maybe the bomb was not placed at the Early Learning Centre, and I wanted to make sure.  I cannot deny that there had not been a certain degree of distrust, but I certainly trusted Gakkie a lot more than what I trusted Peaches.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, and then, Mr van Zyl, let's go to the actual bombing incident, or the night of the bombing.  If you can just turn, Bundle A, page 113, paragraph 40, can you just read the sentence, the second sentence starting with Isgak.
MR VAN ZYL
"... Isgak pointed out the area around the hall and also the parking ground where the motors of the members of the organisation, was parked."

MR WILLIAMS: Now, this parking area that you are talking about, how many cars could this parking area accommodate, more or less?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would say about, and I am relying on the one time that I saw it, about 10 or more vehicles.   Yes, I would say between 10 and 15 maybe.