Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

MR SITHOLE: I indicated that they were standing at a distance the same as the other side of the street here.  I am referring to the street here just outside the building.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Alright.  There is no street outside, there's a parking lot outside building and there's a street other side the parking lot, but I won't make too much of it.  I don't intend to take that matter further.  You said that there was the, approximately, am I correct when I say that you say there were approximately 400 ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: He said that.  400.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Is that correct Mr, Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: He said that it was plus minus 400.

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible) in your statement you talk about 100 members.  Page 29, 5.3 paragraphs.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair I think you might be confusing issues here.  I think the 400 will relate to the incident at the soccer field.  This 100 people mentioned approaching his shack, I'm not sure if it was the same crowd on both occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the occasion when they peeped through the window, the 100 people.  No he said the 400 people, that was in response to a question asked by myself, and that was at the time of the shooting up at the soccer field at Magwaza or in the vicinity of Magwaza's house.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Chairperson both you and Mr Claassen are correct about that.  Mr Sithole, there was, when you left your shack and went to the, after the hundred people had surrounded your shack, is that correct, you went to Magwaza's house.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And from Magwaza's house you didn't have any time to talk and you had to protect yourself and you went towards the soccer ground, that is in the direction of where the ANC people were.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.  I came across this ANC group as they were approaching then I met them at the grounds.

AZHAR CACHALIA: In other words, Mr Sithole, in order to approach them you had to go towards them away from the riverside up towards the hill rather than moving away from them.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes we approached them.

AZHAR CACHALIA: If you were afraid of what they might do to you why did, if you had to arm yourself, why did you have to go towards them and not go away from them?

MR SITHOLE: It is because the river was overflowing.  There was no way we could have gone towards the direction of the river.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Can I put it to you that the river is approximately five to six hundred kilometres away, sorry, five to six hundred metres, my apologies.  The river is from Mr Magwaza's house about 500 to 600 metres away.

MR SITHOLE: I don't know about metres, but I could see the river from where I was standing.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I want to put it to you that I was there yesterday on an inspection in loco and that is my estimate, are you prepared to accept that or are you saying that that's not right sir?  Instead of saying five to six hundred metres lets put it at five to six hundred paces.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a bit difficult when you're dealing with somebody who admits that he's illiterate and can't count, so I mean 600 paces doesn't mean too much, you know.  So if you had to walk there it would take, well I don't even know how if he knows time.

MR LAX: Perhaps I could help.  Just a measure that I've found helpful.  Mr Sithole you know how big the soccer ground is.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

MR LAX: It's approximately a hundred paces.  Was it about four or five or six soccer grounds in distance?

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is from Mr Magwaza's house to the river.

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't know whether the soccer fields are the same insofar as the metres are concerned.  I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this very important Mr Cachalia, whether he knows whether it's five or six hundred paces.  The fact is, he says he didn't retreat because the river was there and it was overflowing and he could see it.  Now whether you can put an alternate version, that's fine.  I mean whether he admits that it was 600 metres or not, it was some distance away but he gives a reason why he went forward and not backwards.  Whether that's acceptable to you or not it doesn't change his position.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, you say you went towards the members of the ANC.  Sorry, by the time you left your shack and you came to Mr Magwaza's place and you got the AK-47 and you went to the soccer field, how long did that take?

MR SITHOLE: It didn't take long, a long time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Can you give us an estimate sir?  One or two minutes, five minutes?

MR SITHOLE: I would not estimate because I started rushing immediately I took reception of the firearm from Magwaza.  I took the firearm and then started running.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, you took the firearm and started running.  There was a tremendous hurry about this matter.  Is that correct?  You were in a hurry?  You were rushing?

MR SITHOLE: I was in a hurry because I wanted to talk to them to find out from them as to whether they had come to me so that we could discuss what were discussing earlier on.

AZHAR CACHALIA: The soccer from Mr Magwaza's house is about half the distance of this hall.  Is that right?  Mr Magwaza's house is half the distance of this hall from the soccer ground?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.  Yes it can go as far as the parking lot.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now from, you went from your shack to Mr Magwaza's house.  Mr Magwaza was in a terrible hurry.  He said no time to discuss the matter.  He gave you the gun and you rushed back to the soccer field.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it's correct.  I went back to the ANC people who were approaching coming to the sports field.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And I'm suggesting to you that that can't take more than a few minutes.

MR SITHOLE: I don't know.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then I want to put it to you that, I want to know from you whether that crowd of 100 people then suddenly became 400 in that few minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, I can't understand, we know that he estimates there's about 100 people near his house, but does that necessarily mean, or are you suggesting that the ANC people all stuck together?  I mean you can get people splitting off from a group.  It doesn't mean that because a  few minutes ago he saw a hundred people at this house and a few minutes later there were 400 on the field, that they all were following in a lot.  I mean, if he saw a group of ten people at his house does it mean that there weren't 400 people on the soccer field?  I can't understand what you're trying  to get at here.  Are you trying to trip him up on credibility that he said there were about a hundred people in his statement and then later said 400 people.  If so you must just put it to him and say I put it to you there were only so many people in the group.  Because it's not going to be conclusive.  I mean we haven't got evidence that everybody around his shack was the entire group.  There might have been 300 people sitting on the soccer field the whole time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you sir that might very well be so.  Do you agree with what the Chairperson is saying Mr Sithole?

MR LAX: No he hasn't said he agrees with it at all.  Why don't you just put to him what your client's version is.  How many people were there?  If they dispute that there were 400 just put it to him.  Let's get this over with and move on.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, excepting putting it to him and just going  on doesn't attack his credibility in this matter and the question of his ...(intervention)