Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR BERGER: Where do you say you entered Boipatong, do you say it was at the top of Boipatong not at the bottom?
	When I talk about the top, I mean along that road where the factories are, Cape Gate and all of those factories, you entered Boipatong from that side?

MR MKHIZE: If you are  following the route from Vanderbijl, I would say yes, that is the route that we took to gain our entry.

MR BERGER: You have told the Court that you know where Umzimvubu Street is, right, the Committee?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you enter Boipatong along Umzimvubu Street?

MR MKHIZE: No, further down.  It was further down Umzimvubu Street.

MR BERGER: You spoke about a caspir that you saw whilst you were moving towards Boipatong, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you remember what colour caspir it was, or what type of caspir?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.  I cannot remember whether it was a military caspir or a police caspir, I cannot recall really, it was at night.

MR BERGER: And this caspir was moving alone, would it be Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, the main road that separates kwaMadala hostel from Boipatong, is that the road that the caspir was moving along?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And moving in which direction, moving towards...

MR MKHIZE: It headed towards Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: In other words up towards the top of Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And weren't you afraid that you might get caught?

MR MKHIZE: I did indicate earlier on that this did not occur to me.  I think you are asking me this question for the second time now.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am asking you now, when you saw this caspir, you were still not afraid that you might get caught, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: We did think that it might be possible for us to be arrested, but the caspir proceeded on.  Had it stopped, yes, we could have concluded that now we were going to get arrested, but the caspir did not stop at all.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that the caspirs were there, that in fact, there was more than one caspir, and that in fact, members of the AmaButho, some of them, actually got into the caspir and were transported into Boipatong.  Isn't that what happened?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know a policeman by the name of Rooikop?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: What is his real name?

MR MKHIZE: I only know him to be Rooikop.

MR BERGER: Is this a black or a white policeman?

MR MKHIZE: He is a white one.   I know a white one.

MR BERGER: With red hair?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is he thin or is he fat?

MR MKHIZE: He is stout, not very big.

MR BERGER: Now, Rubin, do you know someone by the name of Rubin?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: That is Rubin Tebogo Magubane, correct, applicant 3?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: He was present during the attack, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Kachene?

MR MKHIZE: I did say earlier on that I do not remember Kachene.

MR BERGER: You don't know who that person is, or you don't remember if he was there during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I did say that I know Kachene, My Lord, but all I am saying is that I cannot remember whether he was present on the day of the attack or not.

MR BERGER: Themba Kubeka?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he present during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is that Sthembiso Kubeka?

MR MKHIZE: He is Sthembiso's brother.  He died.

MR BERGER: Lucky, do you know who Lucky is?

MR MKHIZE: Lucky who?

MR BERGER: Do you know Lucky Stikenawu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: He was there during the attack, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: His real names are Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, applicant 7?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know his real names really.

MR BERGER: Sipho, do you know Sipho?

MR MKHIZE: Sipho who?

MR BERGER: I don't have a surname.

MR MKHIZE: There are two Sipho's that I know.

MR BERGER: The one is Sipho Buthelezi, right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the other one?

MR MKHIZE: The other one is Sipho Lukhozi.

MR BERGER: And that is Sipho Thomas Lukhozi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And both of them were present during the massacre, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: Makuka, do you know someone by that name?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know Makuka.

MR BERGER: What are his full names?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know his names, I just know him to be Makuka.

MR BERGER: Is he now deceased?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know where he died?

MR MKHIZE: No.  On coming back from home, I learnt that he had died.

MR BERGER: And he was present during the massacre, correct?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Tsamo.  Do you know Tsamo?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember that one, I don't think I know him.

MR BERGER: Dondo?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: He was present during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think he was present.

MR BERGER: That is Jack Mbele, applicant 6, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Jack Mbele is Dondo.

MR BERGER: And Makheze?  Do you know Makheze?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it is half past three.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise now and come back at ten to four.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

MR BERGER: (continued)  Mr Mkhize, I take it that  you deny that there were any policemen involved in the attack on Boipatong?  You deny that there were any caspirs involved in the attack on Boipatong and you deny that there were any people wearing balaclavas who took part in the attack on Boipatong, would that be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: If there had been caspirs involved in transporting some of the attackers to Boipatong, you would have seen that, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would have seen them.

MR BERGER: If there had been policemen involved, or whites involved, or people wearing balaclavas, you would have seen them, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And so the fact that you did not see any of this, means that they were not there, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to put it to you that you are not telling the truth with the Committee and that there were in fact policemen involved, there were whites involved, there were people wearing balaclavas, whites wearing balaclavas and there were caspirs which transported attackers to the township.  You don't wish to comment?

MR MKHIZE: My intention to come before this Committee is to seek amnesty and therefore would have no reason to hide any information if I had it.  I would have no reason to fear anybody including the policemen.  If there were policemen involved, I would say so.
	As I have already mentioned that I was present, I was armed with an AK47 and I do not know why I will be afraid to divulge information if I had it.    I am here to tell the Committee, to inform the Committee of what I saw and what I know.  Therefore I cannot say that the police were there if I did not see them.

MR BERGER: You have every reason not to tell the truth Mr Mkhize, because if you do tell the truth, you fear that something will happen to you, something bad will happen to you.  We have seen with Mr Nosenga.  He has made an affidavit which sets out the truth, he is being threatened with his life.
	Isn't that what you fear?

MR MKHIZE: No, it is not what I fear.  I don't even want to involve myself in Nosenga's issue, because I don't even know him.

MR BERGER: Two of the policemen who gave evidence at the Goldstone Commission about police involvement in the attack, are dead today.  That is the reason that you are not telling the truth.  You are too scared to tell the truth and you are too scared to tell this Committee that that is the reason, isn't that right?