Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were asked why you didn't speak about Webster, the other crimes that you committed at the time that you applied for amnesty.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And particularly in relation to the Webster killing, what is it that prevented you from applying for amnesty for that, because we'll work on the assumption that our learned friend, Mr Wessels is correct when he says it would have been an appropriate case for you to apply for amnesty?  Why didn't you do it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I didn't know what evidence the State possessed during my arrest, which persons would say that I made unlawful admissions, I didn't know what was going on with regard to that.  Furthermore, I didn't trust anybody because I found myself in a situation where I was locked up.  The same persons who provided hundreds of thousands of rands for my defence with, for example, the inquiries and the post-mortem inquiries into Dr Webster's death, were not available or accessible anymore.
	I knew that I was being handled in a unique way.  I had no substantiation for any disclosure made in an amnesty application.  With regard to Lafras Luitingh and Joe Verster there was a typical CCB conspiracy against me after Joe had walked the whole way with me.  You will remember that I was contacted by means of Mr Luitingh and I was brought to the Braamfontein Protea Hotel and a document was shown to me and the effect of the words which were typed on that page were that he denied any knowledge or involvement of or in the matter.  He pointed at it with his finger and told me that that was his attitude.  
	All of those things built up to the time that I was arrested.  All along everyone denied everything and all of a sudden Joe Verster and the others incriminated me during the post-mortem inquest.  I didn't have someone in the system, such as Calla Botha or Slang van Zyl who could support me.  They were always with me on a one on one basis.  
	I had a background of crime, I had been in prison, so I was discredited to a great extent.  And if I were to disclose or expose everything in an amnesty application, all the Defence Force had to do was to deny it, which is what they did.  Theuns Kruger said: "I don't know what the man's talking about, come and look at my office, I'm an auditor, look at my books" and there I would be and then there would be allegations and incriminations against me and the chances were very good that they would turn around and testify against me again if charges were brought against me.  
	I had absolutely no substantiation.  I didn't have a rigid proforma which could substantiate my presentation or the approval or the budget that I received, there were no signatures.  I was handled in a unique way and that made me afraid and uncertain because I could see that I was standing alone.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we understand that.  I want to ask you a few more questions about the inquest in which his Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman held the inquest into the Webster killing.  You're aware, I read it out here, that Judge Stegman said that, going through the evidence of the CCB people was trying to unravel a difficult puzzle, because you were careful to make the plausible denial, that is, admit only the things that may be proved patently and deny involvement.  Would you agree with that assessment of the whole lot of you, by Judge Stegman, as to how you misled him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, I would agree with that, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were asked why you didn't apply for amnesty for Webster, working on the assumption of the correctness of your evidence that you did it on the orders of Verster, did anything come out in those discussions as to why Verster would not apply for amnesty for the killing of Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot give any facts which would explain why Mr Verster did not apply, except from within my own personal opinion on him.  He is so rigid in this thoughts that it is clear to me that they would not admit to anything that was going on in South Africa, except that which was know.  For example, the Athlone bomb and the baboon incident, that which Slang van Zyl had already disclosed, they would admit to.  I'm convinced within myself that other things must have taken place, I don't know exactly what, but what has been mentioned thusfar is merely the tip of the iceberg, that's for sure.

GEORGE BIZOS: What reason did your colleagues in the CCB, do you believe, have in wanting to bypass Gen Webb?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I have spent much time thinking about that in my cell, I think that the CCB was highjacked from the inside by Joe Verster.  I sat here and it was a revelation for me to see that Gen Webb had other duties and other activities except the CCB.  He was the figurehead to me, but the CCB was actually Joe Verster.  I think it turned into a monster where one person became so power hungry.  If you play God for long enough you'll end up believing that you are God.  And that is my personal opinion on what really happened here.  However, I cannot substantiate my opinion with facts.  I would say that Joe Verster highjacked the CCB from the inside and what the reason for that is, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you were recruited, were you informed that no life or attempt to take a life should be made without the authority of the Chairman, be it Gen Joubert or Gen Webb?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Bizos, they never put it to me that directly in the beginning.  At a later stage I became aware from discussions with Calla Botha, that things were submitted to the Chairperson.  I wasn't completely involved regarding the length of the line and where it ran to, I knew I had to go through my Co-ordinator and through Joe Verster.  What happened on the higher levels, I thought that there would be submissions but no-one told me specifically that everything had to be approved by the General.  As I have told you, to me it was that Joe Verster was the CCB, if he said to kill a man, then I would kill him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Remind us what Mr Verster said to his Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman about the killing of Webster and you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I was not present when Mr Verster gave evidence, so I don't know, all I know is that he incriminated me.  But I'm not certain, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: And were you present when Mr Luitingh gave evidence in the inquest?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I was not present with Mr Verster, Mr Luitingh or Mr Botes' evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any reason why you were excluded?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I'm speaking under correction but if I recall correctly, especially with regard to Mr Verster, it was as such that I was not permitted to be present while he gave evidence.  I was under the impression that Mr Verster was in disguise and if he wasn't in disguise, they managed to smuggle him in and out of the court in some or other way.  I was not allowed to see him and I think that the court was also evacuated during his evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: He gave evidence in camera.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: He gave evidence under disguise at the Harms Commission.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that I know for a fact.

GEORGE BIZOS: His identity was protected at all costs.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now was there any attempt by anyone to suggest to you what you should say and what you should not say at the Webster inquest?