Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-05

COMMISSIONER: David Ramohoase welcome.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: (s.s.)

COMMISSIONER: Utata David before I ask you tell your story just out of interest are you related to Utata Solomon?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Yes we are related.

COMMISSIONER: How are you related?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: He is my brother.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.  Utata you are also going to tell us about what happened on that fateful day in Sebokeng in 1961.  Please take your time and tell us your story.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: In 1960 we were on our way to work and people stopped us.  You know they just stopped us from going to work and we asked them what to do.  They said no, we are heading for the police station today.  We asked them what are you going to do there, they said no we are going to enquire about our pass.  And after a few minutes we decided to go to the police station.  I wanted to go and listen to this issue about passes.  When we arrived there we spent some few minutes sitting, you know there was a large crowd of people going just up and down.  Between one and two o'clock after a long time that we have been there a car drove in, a very small car.  It drove into the police station premise but the armoured vehicles, the saracens, had already been there already.  Two of them approached from the
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south, they got into the police station premise and they faced to the west.  That is the site where most of the people were gathered.  They faced towards the people. Most of the people were just behind the fence.  This white car drove in and a man jumped out of the car, a white person, and he had a very short stick in his hand and then he had a band on his head.  He had this stick, you know he just dropped his stick and then he said "Shoot".  I don't know what happened because it was now chaos.  People were lying on the ground.  At the time while I was on the ground a person who was shot lying to me said things are bad please lie down, don't try to raise your head otherwise they are going to shoot you.  When the ambulances and the police vans arrived we were taken - and I was taken by a municipal van to the Vereeniging Hospital.  That is what I witnessed on that 21st day.   The day of March.  We were treated at the Vereeniging Hospital.  I spent three months there and a few days.  I can't remember but three months went by. I was shot on the right leg just above the knee.  It was broken in two.  The bone was just broken and even now if I can show you you will see that I was badly injured.  That is the experience that I have been through because I didn't know exactly what was happening.

COMMISSIONER: Utata David, sorry, I omitted to say at the beginning that I will be leading you in questioning.  Are you finished with your story, is there anything else you want to add?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Sir, I think I will stop there because most of the time I spent in hospital, it was three months and then after that I was just a person doing temporary jobs.
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COMMISSIONER: Utata David if I can then start.  Can you please tell us what work you were doing at the time when you were going on that day to work.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: I was working at the dry cleaners and I used a bicycle to go to work because these were the bicycles with a side wheel that we usee to collect dry clean with.

COMMISSIONER: Were you a member of any political organisation at the time and did you understand what the protest was all about?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: I didn't know anything at that stage.  I wasn't even belonging to any political organisation.  I only heard about the existence but I never had any interest to join any.  I was just an ordinary person.

COMMISSIONER: Can you just tell us before the policeman gave the order to shoot how many people do you think had gathered on that day?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: It was a large group, 300 to 400 people.  I cannot estimate exactly the number but it was a large group.  It was a group like the one you see in front of you here.   Maybe even more than the group here.

COMMISSIONER: Utata you say that after you fell and somebody said to you keep your head down, you also heard policemen coming around and saying - and finishing some people off.  Can you please tell us what you mean by that.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: What I saw with my eyes the time I tried to raise my head I was trying to look so that I can find my way out.  The person who was lying next to me said please don't raise your head, these people will come and finish us off because they are shooting.  As I was lying the police were turning people down and you would see them
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turning this person down and then you know you would see a person just throwing his hands and then I would be shocked as to what was happening.  And they would go to the next but I couldn't see who these police were.  They would go to the next one and then they would turn him and you would see this person you know just getting dumped, you know we didn't know actually what were they doing to the people.  But according to our minds they were doing something to the people.  Every time they go the next person you would see this person throwing his hands.  They also came to me, they asked me where have we shot you.  And I showed them my knee.  I said here and they just passed.  He said Africa is no longer a thumb facing upwards, it is a thumb facing downwards now.  You know some of the things skipped my mind when I was giving my statement.  Maybe I didn't mention that before.

COMMISSIONER: Utata, I just want to come to the hospital now.  Were you questioned at the hospital or subsequently by the police?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Nobody came to question me.

COMMISSIONER: I apologise for this, I keep saying the police.  Was it only the police involved that day or was the army also involved?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: According to what I saw it was the police mixed with the soldiers.  But most of them were the police.

COMMISSIONER: Utata, did you lay a charge?  Your brother said earlier on he was only compensated and given R88.  Did you lay a charge and did you receive any compensation?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: At one stage I was given R30, if not R60. I don't know was it a compensation and from which organisation it was but there is a money that I received.
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It was R30 or R60.  I can't remember.  It was just a cheque.  I was told to go to the bank to get that money.   I went to the bank and I received that.  If it wasn't R30 it was R60 I am sure.  As I was thinking I thought you know maybe this is the money because I had been shot.  Because there was no other place where I could get money from.  I said maybe this is the money, this is the compensation for injuries and I just received the money from the bank, I didn't want to enquire as to from whom it was.  That was all.

COMMISSIONER: Utata David I thank you.  I have no more questions.  I will hand you over to our Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any further questions?

PROF MEIRING: Utata I would like to ask about your life after the shooting and after you were out of the hospital.  Were you able to work again?  Did they take you back at the dry cleaners?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: Yes, I was taken back. I was now a handyman.  I used to walk with a stick, you know just doing the dusting and then I would mark everything that needed to be marked.  At that time I got tired I would sit down until my leg was much better.  That is where I was working.  And the dry cleaning was closed down and then I had to leave.

PROF MEIRING: Utata how large is your family?

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: I have two boys and three girls and a wife.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.

MR DAVID RAMOHOASE: And a grandchild.  I don't want to count him in my family because they can come and fetch him at any time.  That is his father's family.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much.