Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I will briefly say if you came with information you have to continue with the lead because if you don't you will be chased or you will be chased away from work.  I had to continue to work because I was working for my children. I didn't know that they were going to kill and the agreement between me and them is that they were supposed to arrest the people.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you regard it as necessary that these people be arrested?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I used to report to Koos van den Berg and he had to take that information to the senior leaders and they will give me instructions as to how I should continue the work.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana, when you reported from the beginning to Mr van den Berg, when you reported to him, did you inform him that these people were MK soldiers?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I explained to him like that, that they were MK soldiers.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you know that they were going to be armed when coming across the border?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I won't say I knew that they will have arms or guns, however, Teboga said you must drop them at the bridge.  Two of them should be taken to Phalaborwa, some of them have to take a taxi to Johannesburg, two of them to Johannesburg.  Some were to come and bomb Checkers in Pietersburg, the Checkers shop in Pietersburg.  So from there I suspected that they might be armed.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana during this operation under whose direct command were you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I get a clear picture of the situation the senior person in rank it was Captain Erwee.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Sehlwana while they are discussing things could you kindly repeat, you said that you were informed that two of them would come to Pietersburg, is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's the way I was told.

ADV DE JAGER: Who told you this?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's Teboga Boyikanyo.

ADV DE JAGER: And what would they do at Pietersburg?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They were supposed to bomb the Checkers Supermarket in Pietersburg.

ADV DE JAGER: And the others where should they go?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The other two were supposed to go to Phalaborwa and two to Johannesburg.

ADV DE JAGER: And what should they do there?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't know what they were supposed to go there and do.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, before you leave the matter there, your client is applying for amnesty is that correct?

MR ROSSOUW: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: And on what grounds does he apply for amnesty?

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I believe that the political objective with which he saw this operation took place is set out in the application as supplemented.  If the Committee wants us to lead further evidence to that I will do that.

ADV DE JAGER: Well you've led evidence about all the rest so I presumed you are leading full evidence, otherwise if you would at least let him confirm that or let's have the reason why he's applying for amnesty.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I will let him confirm that and I will refer him to - that will be in the Committee's bundle, page 3 and 4.
	Mr Sehlwana can you have a look at Exhibit B in front of you.  That is page 3 thereof, paragraph 10A and B.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Rossouw I suppose it might actually facilitate matters if you simply read paragraph 10B to your witness so that the translators can translate what is written there for ease of his understanding.

MR ROSSOUW: I will do that Mr Chairman.  It is in Afrikaans.
	Mr Sehlwana I am going to read to you from paragraph 10A, if you can follow it, if you've got the right page there.  The mention the political objective sought to be achieved, and the answer is,
"The objective for this conduct was to prevent armed ANC members infiltrating the Republic of South Africa to commit acts of terror here".
	Mr Sehlwana do you confirm that that was the political objective, as far as you know?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes that's correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana I am also going to read to you 10B. Your motivation why you committed these acts, offences and why these acts and offences are regarded as acts in association with a political objective - answer
"I was a member of the security police.  The security police protected the government of the day against attacks and acts of terror from the ANC/PAC terrorist side.
		I completed a training course in Durban where I was trained in the general security work and received instructions in handling an informer.  The information which I received from my informer was to determine the movements of ANC terrorists in Botswana.  I knew that the six ANC members who entered the RSA from Botswana were armed.
		I believed and suspected that the operation, for which we had practised the day before, was essential to prevent these armed terrorists entering the Republic of South Africa".
	Mr Sehlwana do you confirm that that was your belief?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, that's correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sehlwana in your application form dated -which you signed on the 9th of December 1996, do you see it in front of you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: And on paragraph 10C you were asked whether you received any financial benefit or any benefit of any kind as a result of the incident, you said you didn't.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I had some problem because I didn't remember well, however, I remembered later and that's why I am giving the statement today that they gave me   R2 000.  I was confused at the particular stage when I gave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well R2 000 is a lot of money to forget.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know how it came about that I forgot and remembered later, and I tried to look for de Lange to tell him there is something that I have omitted in my application and that was regarding this money.

CHAIRPERSON: The true position is now as set out in - well as mentioned in your evidence, that you did in fact receive, or you were given an amount of R2 000 as a result of this incident?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct they've given me the R2 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us more about that.  In particular I want to know from you, when you went to go, when you went to this place and you got involved in these arrangements and you transported these people to the scene where they were killed, had you been told already that you were going to be given R2 000?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They didn't tell me anything about any payment, they just told me that that was part of my work, what I was supposed to do.  I had to collect the information and that was my job.  It just happened that they gave me the R2 000 later.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not a situation where you said to them, well before I agree to this thing you must give me      R2 000 first?  I mean you would have done this job even if - well let me stop there.  It's not a situation where you said well give me R2 000 before I carry out this task?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, I didn't demand any money.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sehlwana, how soon after the incident were you given R2 000?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I remember well I think the incident took place on Wednesday and they gave me the money on Friday, and they gave me about five days off to go and relax.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it specifically explained to you why you were given R2 000?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They didn't give me any reason.  They said you did a very good job, take this money.