Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MS PRETORIUS: Were the comrades and the SDU's the same people?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: To my understanding, I think it means the same people.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you ever attend a meeting during that week from the 10th until the 18th of June, where Themba Khoza addressed the residents of kwaMadala?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: No.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked whether, you talked about two groups that went into Boipatong?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you gave the figure of approximately 200 to 300 persons.

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that an estimate of persons in one group?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: May it please you Mr Chairman.  Can you give an estimate of when the group entered Boipatong, what time was that more or less to start the attack?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well unfortunately I cannot estimate.

MR DA SILVA: Can't you estimate at all, do you know if it was late in the evening, near midnight, later?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, it was not yet midnight.

MR DA SILVA: You say that you saw, your testimony was that you saw police vans, and because of this you put the TV down, because you were scared that you were going to be arrested?  Do I make the correct deduction that when you saw this police van that you mentioned, that you were in the open veld between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Can you estimate how far you were from this police van?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: It was quite a distance.  Let me explain this, I said we saw military vans, not the police vans.

MR DA SILVA: It was translated as police vans, are you saying that it was interpreted incorrectly just now when you testified?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Da Silva, he did correct it.  He spoke about, he used some unusual term, suitcases.  He said these vans were SADF vehicles, we used to call them suitcases, they were coming from Tserela towards Vanderbijl.

MR DA SILVA: I would like to clarify this aspect, because the actual evidence was we saw police vans, I put it down because I thought I was going to be arrested.  They are suitcases of the SADF and I would like the witness to clarify that.

INTERPRETER: That was a mistake from the interpretation not the witness.

MR LAX: The Interpreter is saying that was his mistake.

MR DA SILVA: I understand sir, thank you.  In regard to the distance, can you estimate how far you were when you saw this vehicle?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I think it can be a distance from this wall to the back of the hall there.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, that is approximately 30 meters I would estimate, 30 meters.  I can measure that tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless something turns on the distance?

MR BERGER: We are happy with 30 meters.

CHAIRPERSON: To the extreme that it may be necessary, just pace the distance roughly and let us know for the record tomorrow.

MR DA SILVA: I will do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR DA SILVA: You described this or let me clarify this aspect, your testimony was that you saw suitcases, your testimony interpreted incorrectly was police vans.  Did you see one vehicle or more than one vehicle?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I saw three vehicles.

MR LAX: I didn't hear the figure, please repeat it.

INTERPRETER: I saw three vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: Can you describe these vehicles?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I can describe them.  They are brown vehicles.  When it is facing you, you only see the driver, so the people who are sitting at the back, you only see their heads and their hats.
	There is a big iron on top of it, that is why we refer to it as a suitcase.

MR DA SILVA: And you are quite sure you saw three vehicles?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I am sure.

MR DA SILVA: Were all three vehicles as you describe them, suitcases?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him whether all three vehicles were in suitcases?

MR DA SILVA: I will follow that up Mr Chairman.  The vehicles that you saw, were all three vehicles as you describe them, suitcases?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: All of them were suitcases.  We used to call them suitcases.

MR DA SILVA: And you mention suitcases because of this iron bar on top, is that right?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Now you know the difference between a military vehicle and a police vehicle?  At that stage my information was that police vehicles were painted yellow or green or camouflage, were you aware of that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR DA SILVA: So after you saw these vehicles, you put down the TV and then what did you do?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Then I joined the group and then we crossed over the road.  We were all rushing, we only wanted to cross over the road, so that we can be near our place.

MR DA SILVA: To join the group, did you move away from these vehicles, towards the group, is that what you are saying?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: They were facing the road that is moving towards Vanderbiljpark, so we were just passing in front of those vehicles.
	After they had turned at the robot, they were moving with a slow pace, so we managed to cross over the road in front of them.

MR DA SILVA: So, the road that you crossed was Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Well, I don't know the name of that road, but it is the road that moves from the garage towards Vanderbijlpark.

MR DA SILVA: Do I understand your evidence to be that when you saw these vehicles on your version, that they were on the same road as you crossed, the group crossed?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: So the first time you saw these vehicles, on your version, these vehicles were on this road, and then you crossed in front of them, crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: So where did you leave the TV?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: I left the TV at the open veld before the crossed the road.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know a gentleman by the name of Daniel Mabote or Themba Mabote?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: Was he part of the group that perpetrated the attack on Boipatong?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Do you remember him being in the group when you gathered in the veld?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, he was present.

MR DA SILVA: Do you remember if he was armed?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I remember.

MR DA SILVA: What was he armed with?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: He was armed with a small gun.

MR DA SILVA: Were you quite close to him when you were in the group in the veld, when you were gathering in the veld?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: From when we entered Boipatong, I was always next to a person armed with a gun.  Even when we returned, I was always next to Themba Mabote because he had a gun.

MR DA SILVA: At the criminal trial you heard the evidence of a Mr Holi Bajozi, do you recall that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I heard his evidence but I don't remember what he said.

MR DA SILVA: With reference to Mr Themba Mabote, he testified that Mr Themba Mabote fired a gun in the direction of a Defence Force vehicle, do you recall that?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: So you recall that when Mr Mabote saw the Defence Force vehicle, that he actually fired in the direction of the Defence Force vehicle?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, it is true.

MR DA SILVA: And he was pointing his firearm at the Defence Force vehicle?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is true.

MR DA SILVA: And how many times did he fire his firearm?

TIMOTHY STALS MAZIBUKO: Even though I do not remember, but he ... (tape ends) ... that is correct.