Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes she was loaded into the Combi.

MR VISSER: Very well, so you left from there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I was in the back of the Combi with her.  Wasserman and Du Preez were in the bus.

MR VISSER: You speak about a Combi and a bus, let's talk about bus only.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: And the bakkie was driven by the informers and Taylor and Vorster were driving with his vehicle.  We went back in the direction of Sipho Fanene and Sipho Fanene to Big Ben and Big Ben to Ntoko and in the direction Lavumisa.

MR VISSER: Very well, so you are now driving towards Goolal border post?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  Just before Goolal border post you have a road turning off to Hluthe, we went off to that dirt road and we drove quite a while and then the vehicles came to another standstill.

MR VISSER: Now just to give us detail concerning this, what was the weather circumstances at that time?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It had already started raining, it was quite dark, it was quite late, I'd say it was in the vicinity of 8, 9
o'clock.

MR VISSER: Okay, then what happened when you came to a standstill on the Lavumisa/Hluthe Road?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I transferred Zandile onto the bakkie.  Du Preez and Wasserman took over the bakkie.  I was on the back of the bakkie together with her, partially covered with a piece of canvas.  The other vehicle, that is that of Taylor as well as the bus when back in the direction of Goolal border post where they had to exit Swaziland.  The bakkie which was driven by Du Preez and Wasserman drove onwards on the Hluthe road, up till the crossing, turned off and came back in the direction of Onverwagt border post and about a kilometre before the border post the road turns to the left towards the cattle farm of the Swazi King.  We drove in there and we were dropped off close to the fence of the border.

MR VISSER: Who was this now, who got dropped off close to the border fence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Zandile and I was dropped off there.  Du Preez and Wasserman helped us through the fence.  At the other side of the fence was Taylor, Vorster and Brigadier Steyn.

MR VISSER: And this was a predetermined place where you would have met?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: What did you yourself do, did you stay in Swaziland or did you also get through the fence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I also climbed through the fence with Zandile, we were loaded into the little bus and we went back to the police house at Onverwagt border post.

MR VISSER: What happened to the bakkie and Du Preez and Wasserman?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: They stayed behind in Swaziland because they wouldn't have made it back in time at the border post at Goolal before 10 o'clock.

MR VISSER: So the border post to Swaziland closed at 10 o'clock in the evening.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Onverwagt's closes even before that time, about 6.

MR VISSER: Now you are in the bus, you went back home - or you went back to the police house at Onverwagt's border post and I would like you to tell us what happened there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: At the house at Onverwagts border post I immediately started questioning Zandile, specifically with regards to the activities in as far as Swaziland was concerned as well as the activities as far as the Natal machinery was concerned in Natal.

MR VISSER: What was Zandile's attitude about this whole abduction and interrogation?  How did she react to your questioning?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Initially she was scared and she was reluctant.  She was treated quite nicely so consequently she communicated with us freely and she answered the questions.

MR VISSER: You mean after a while?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, after a while.

MR VISSER: What was your impression of her when it comes to how she felt about what she told you and her involvement.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, as the evening went on, the interrogation went on till about 12.30 that night.  One could see that she got quieter and calmer and because we had a lot of information regarding the activities, some of the things only confirmed it for us, some of the things she told us.

MR VISSER: And it's probably not necessary to mention this but she knew you, not true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes she knew us.

MR VISSER: Because of the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Except for Steyn, I would imagine, but she knew you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes she knew me and she knew Du Preez and she knew Wasserman.

MR VISSER: Can you now tell the Committee if you obtained any information from her which was news to you, which was new or which had a lot of worth for you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, in as far as it pertained to the acts of terror which took place before her abduction in Swaziland and her acts of terror which happened in Durban specifically.

MR VISSER: Please continue?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: She told us who was responsible with regards to the people who were responsible and she confirmed it for us and in another sense she gave us information about the units which were involved.

MR VISSER: So on page 6 of your application you say
"Out of the questioning and interrogation of Zandile, certain information was obtained with regards to Pumezo"
and then also then you continue and you make a list, I do not expect you to remember all of this by heart but lets look at that list.  It refers to the Pinetown post office limpet explosion on the 12th August 1988?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: So what were you told by Zandile with regards to this incident for example, or what does she confirm that you already knew?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: What she told us was that units under the command of Pumezo were responsible for these acts of terror.

MR VISSER: Is it now all these acts of terror which you list on page 6 and 7?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Up until 7th October 1988?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you're interested to have the cross-references to Exhibit A, I can give them to you now.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The first incident Mr Chairman is Exhibit A, page 34, as is the second, third and fourth incidents, all

EXHIBIT A: page 34.  The last incident - I'm sorry, excuse me Mr Chairman, the incident of the 2nd September, that's the second last incident, that is referred to at page 37 of Exhibit A and the incident of the 22nd September of the 25th September are both referred - all three of them are referred to at page 37.  Page 37 for those three.
	Then the 30th September, being the next one, well one, two, three Mr Chairman, the next three, that's the 30th September twice and the 2nd October are referred to at page 35.

CHAIRPERSON: 35?