Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

MR RICHARD: I can't comment on the translation.
	Now at that stage did you know that the accused had been prosecuted for the - sorry the deceased, had been prosecuted for an attempted murder and had been acquitted of that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That I know.

MR RICHARD: When do you remember that acquittal happening?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not sure as to the time, but I know it happened.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR RICHARD: That was around the 6th of December 1986, that's of record.  Now were you aware of any other prosecutions against the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I remember the one you've just asked me, but not about others.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember him standing trial on a charge of possession of a firearm?

INTERPRETER: On a charge of what?

MR RICHARD: Possession of a firearm.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't quite remember, but I think I once heard something to that effect.

MR RICHARD: Were you aware that he was given a five year suspended sentence for that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I heard so.

MR RICHARD: Now that event happened early during 1987, when did you have knowledge of that event?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not sure as I've already mentioned I so heard.

MR RICHARD: Now when as you say the deceased joined your cell, were you aware of these events?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: When, the deceased was recruited into your cell, were you aware of these events?  That was sometime in July '87.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know what happened in July '87.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he join your cell?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: If my recollection serves me right I think it was around August.

CHAIRPERSON: 1987?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know then that he had been charged with attempted murder and been acquitted and that he'd been convicted of possession of a firearm and given a suspended sentence?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not follow those events, but I knew that he will be arrested and be released and that went on for quite some time, like any other activist.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us a moment ago that you heard he'd been given a five year suspended sentence, do you remember telling us that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I remember that very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Now had you heard that when you got him to join your cell?  You were the officer commanding the cell, weren't you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I heard the sentence.  I don't quite follow the, or I did not quite understand the question, can you please repeat it.

CHAIRPERSON: When he came to join your cell in 1987 in August, did you know that he had a suspended sentence for possession of a firearm?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I knew was that he would be arrested and be released from time to time.  I knew that as well as what you've said.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want to tell us the truth, because a moment ago you told us, and your counsel will confirm this, that you heard that he had been give a five year sentence for possession of a firearm.
	Didn't he, didn't he say that?

MR KOOPEDI: Well he did say that, but he said something further.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone please.

CHAIRPERSON: He also said that he heard, that he knew that he had been prosecuted for attempted murder and acquitted but he wasn't sure when.

MR KOOPEDI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm now asking him a simple question, had he got this, did he know all this when this man joined his cell in August 1987.

MR KOOPEDI: He replied in Zulu that ...(Zulu word) had heard that.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard that before he joined your cell in 1987?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that last question.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you heard that he had a suspended sentence for possession of a firearm and that he'd been acquitted on a charge of attempted murder before he joined your cell in August 1987?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I said that I was aware of all that.

MR RICHARD: And as far as the March/April period of the same year, were you aware that the deceased had conducted interviews with the Dutch Television and others and was involved in the making of a television documentary called "Children of Apartheid"?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The period you are referring to I was in prison.

MR RICHARD: When did you become aware - let me ask a slightly different question.  As I understand it you were in prison in 1986, were you in prison again in 1987, if so when?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: To be specific I was arrested in 1986, November, and I was released in 1987, June.

MR RICHARD: On your release in June, did you become aware that the deceased, or sometime after your release, was or had been involved or was still involved in the process of giving interviews to the foreign news media and making television documentaries concerning the "Children of Apartheid" as it became known?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That I heard.

MR RICHARD: How did you hear it, from who did you hear it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't want to commit myself with the specifics or with details here because I did not record about the events that transpired at the time, but it was what I was aware of.

MR RICHARD: Was it before or after you had been recruited into your cell?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not certain about that.

MR RICHARD: Right.  Now it follows that you were released from prison in June of 1987, so that meant you had to rejoin activities, what was the state of your cell on your release?  How many members were there, who was the commander, was there a cell?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: In 1986 when Dube recruited me I was the only one and he initiated a communication again after my release.  That is when I realised we should recruit more members.

MR RICHARD: Now who next was recruited?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The first person I recruited to the cell was Sipho Tshabalala.  We had this objective that we had to be four in the cell and I recruited Sipho then.  From there he recommended Sicelo, Sipho that is and I as well recruited Sibongiseni and we were complete, four in number.

MR RICHARD: Now what vetting procedure did you go through to check on who was going to join your cell, how did you go about deciding that somebody as a fit and proper person to join the cell?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: There was no prescription as such, but I targeted people who were active in the struggle and people who were prepared to fight.  As a person, that is the discretion I used and those were the lines I was following in recruiting.

MR RICHARD: Who gave you those lines, did you decide them yourself or did somebody tell you what to do?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had the background furnished by the commander.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Was training provided to the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: By who?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: By Dube.

MR RICHARD: How often?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was again not prepared to commit myself, but I know he was given training.

MR RICHARD: What kind of training, training to do what?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What he trained them on is to check the level of understanding ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, I ...

INTERPRETER: The interpreter was trying to establish exactly what the witness had said.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Besides the fact that commander will check his understanding, the level of understanding and his involvement, specifically he was trained in the usage of AK, Makarov, limpet mines, handgrenades.  That's the kind of training he received.

MR RICHARD: Now how often did these training sessions happen, once a day, once a week?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We were pressurised by the fact that we had to concentrate on training, for instance the first days you will go for training for often days like one day after another, especially in the beginning.