Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I am not sure whether that is his real name.  They tried to explain that he knew M.Z. Khumalo and he knew about our training at Caprivi.
	He was laying a background to show that he was a close person to the IFP.   When we left that meeting, I told Sipho Mlaba or I asked him how he got involved with this people.
	He then told me that the people came to him, they were with Zakhile Mkehle and they told him that they were going to guard him or protect him.  He didn't enquire where they were coming from or who they were.
	Paul Berry explained that he was trying to collaborate with us because the situation was bad in Mpumalanga.
	I would have to help him or he would help me, if there was an area I wanted to attack so that he could inform his colleagues in the SAP before any attack was carried out.

MR STUART: How did you feel at that time about this involvement with Military Intelligence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At the time, I did not really care because I had seen the involvement between the Military Intelligence and the IFP.
	I just had to accept and participate.

MR STUART: At one time, you were involved in planning an attack on a shack area called R25, do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I remember that.

MR STUART: Did you see Major Paul Berry in connection with that attack?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, we went to him and we told him that we wanted to attack R25.  This area was (indistinct) in Georgedale, from where UDF attacks would be launched and they would attack Sipho Mlaba's area.
	We had already identified it as the safe house of the UDF.  We told Paul Berry that we were going to attack this area.
	He would have to remove the Police and the SADF personnel as usual.  He then told us that some of his men were there and he would have to remove them first, before we got into the area.

MR STUART: What did he mean by some of his men were there, was he referring to SAP and SADF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He meant that there were others who were like the guards for Sipho Mlaba, belonging to the Military Intelligence.

MR STUART: What were they doing there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Can I expantiate a little bit, because I cannot answer the question briefly.  When Paul Berry told us that he had to remove his personnel first, I asked him that I thought that we had a good relationship, what did he mean when he said he had his own people there?
	What were they doing there, because those were the people who were responsible for attacking us.  He said that the strategy that they were employing is that in an area where they identified Inkatha as being weak, and the UDF as being strong, they used to try to remove the IFP that was present in the area.
	And then where the IFP was strong, they would try to remove the UDF.  The strategy assisted them in monitoring the area because in an area where there were these two groups simultaneously, it became difficult to monitor the area.
	I then told Mlaba that we should let him do as he says.  When we were at Mlaba's house, I then said to him that it is clear that the war is not just between the IFP and the ANC.  I told him that from what the Major had been saying, it is clear that the Military Intelligence was behind the attacks.
	They were responsible for killing the members of the ANC or the IFP or the UDF.   In the process they were using us, to kill each other.
	I then advised him that we should go speak to the UDF leadership, because we had heard that we are being destroyed by the Military Intelligence.
	We then did so.  By then we embarked on a peace initiative.

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, if you will just give the Interpreter time to keep up with you.  In what way did you embark on a peace initiative?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The people who were responsible for the initiative, were Mr Mbambo from the IFP who had a funeral parlour in the area.
	And his friend Boy Maqinga Majola, those are the people who started the peace initiative because they were friend.

MR STUART: Was his friend from the ANC/UDF camp?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.  Through their discussions, we told Mbambo that he should keep Majola with him, because we were also wanting to talk to him.   Whilst they were busy with discussions, we also arrived.  Majola was surprised to see us there but he trusted me because he is actually an uncle of mine.
	He asked me if we were there to kill him and I told him that we were there to discuss or to add on to the discussions, and he complained that he was the only one from the ANC or the UDF camp, but we explained ourselves.
	He then said that he should go and consult his colleagues.  He did try, although it was difficult because some of the people were not prepared to accept this initiative.
	But Sipho Mlaba and Michek Radebe managed to carry this through, although it was difficult, but they managed to carry the initiative through.

MR STUART: What was the attitude of the IFP structures outside of Mpumalanga to that peace process?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was very bad, because IFP members from the IFP - the people who were half ANC members and half IFP members, and those were called Inqaqa.

MR STUART: Did Sipho Mlaba have to address a conference on this?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.  I remember about this peace initiative.  He, Sipho Mlaba played a dual role.
	He will speak peace at the top, but at the grassroots they will be speaking war.  He was not happy about the initiative.  I can say that he found himself in great difficulty, because when the leaders of the IFP talked peace, but when you carried out peace initiatives they would not agree with you, or they would oppose you.
	You would then be in trouble, because you wouldn't really know what was expected from you.
	The peace initiative in Mpumalanga was organised by the Mpumalanga community because they were tired of killing each other.  That is the reason why the initiative succeeded, not really because the IFP showed its commitment or encourage Mlaba to pursue the peace process.
	There was a time when a meeting was called, where the President of the IFP was called, and Mlaba was then asked to explain what was going on in Mpumalanga.
	He was asked to explain what the peace initiative was about when people were being killed because there was an uneven situation.
	He was being questioned because there were areas that were still under violence.

MR STUART: One of those areas was eSikhawini, do you agree with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR STUART: What was your involvement subsequent to the peace in Mpumalanga in the violence in eSikhawini initially?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: After the peace initiative in Mpumalanga, M.Z. removed me from there and said that because there had been peace, there are still areas that were under seize, therefore I had to go and try to fix things in those areas, like eSikhawini, Inkatha was being wiped out, therefore I should go there to assist.

MR STUART: What did you do?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I went to eSikhawini.   There was a rally at which an incident occurred.  I arrived there late.  When I arrived, houses were on fire, people were running in every direction.
	I managed to get to the grounds where the rally was being held.
	When I got off the car, I met Prince Gideon Zulu.  If he could, he would have beaten me, because he was extremely angry, but I didn't know what was going on.
	He asked me why I was arriving so late and said they were being attacked by the comrades and were not there to protect them.
	He told me that there should be a meeting to solve the situation in eSikhawini.  I then tried to contact other Caprivi trainees in the area, to enquire about what had happened.

MR STUART: Before you go on, what position did Prince Gideon Zulu have at that time?