Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: ....Security branch for the military as well?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: It was under the police element, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Part of the police.  Yes thank you, sorry Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And you, just to recap, you met the fifth applicant when he was a member of the Security Branch at Sibasa.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was it round about the time of 1981 '82.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I think it was before that.  He was attached to branch maybe I cannot recollect properly but okay in the 80's.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now you've testified that immediately after attack on the police station there was an investigation team or as you call it an interrogation team formed which consisted largely of officers.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now my question is was the fifth applicant part of that investigation of interrogators team?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: As I said earlier on I only had officers and Warrant Officer, that was the lowest rank that I could ...

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage what was the rank of the fifth applicant,  Mr van Rensburg has referred to him as Captain, I don't know if that is present status.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: He was a constable.  If he was not a constable he was a sergeant.  I can't recall.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. My instructions are at that stage he was in fact a sergeant.  You agree with that?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I may agree, I can't recall everything now.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see.  So if we then accept that he was a sergeant and you say that core mainly consist or are exclusively consist of policemen with the rank of warrant officer, so he was in fact excluded from that interrogation team or investigation team.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, not necessarily I think that depends upon the performance of a particular member.  If he is good at investigations even if he is a constable he would be what  I could refer to - delegated to serve under the supervision of the investigation team.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the question put to you by Mr van Rensburg is do you know whether he part of that team whether he was delegated or used, do you know whether he participated?  Let's put it this was, make it a bit broader.  Do you know personally whether the fifth applicant who was then a sergeant, was used in the investigation and/or interrogation involving the detainees referred to in paragraph 15 of your supplementary application?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: This thing took place long ago I can't recall it really.  This guy was a constable, he was a sergeant.  Now today he is a Captain, if you go back and you try and think whether he was ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, no the question is merely do you can you tell us now?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't recall, okay.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Have you ever personally witnessed the fifth applicant assaulting any of the detainees?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Who is the fifth applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant, then Sergeant Netshivale.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Not in my presence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you for the assistance Mr Chairman.
	You testified at some occasions when you heard screams during the time of the interrogation you would actually intervene and kind of caution your officers to take it easy.  Is that a correct summation?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No I didn't say that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, perhaps I should rephrase that.  You at a stage during the interrogation when you heard certain screams would intervene to make sure that the bounds of the interrogation are not exceeded.  That is your evidence.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I didn't say that.  I said if I heard screams I would go and to try and find out what was going on.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you denying that you said something to the effect that you had to make sure and the reason why you intervened was to make sure that the bounds of the interrogation were not exceeded.  Are you denying that?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, I don't know. I don't know.  I didn't say that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't get the feeling that Mr van Rensburg is trying to trick you into anything.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, but what I am trying to say, okay, but what he is saying is not what I said.  If you could read what I said from the transcript I would really appreciate it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think basically what you have said was that if they did it excessively, you would intervene.  I am trying to be closer to what you've said.  I can't be verbatim.  That was your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe you didn't use the word "intervene".  You would go and see for yourself to find out what was happening there.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes that's what I said.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you did use the word "intervene".

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg ..

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you also, and I have to be specific - you have to be as specific about this, you also used the phrase, "exceed the bounds".

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is my question.  What bounds?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: The bounds of assaulting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And those bounds were set by yourself, is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I didn't say that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm asking you.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No I didn't set the bounds.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Let's take it a bit further.  You said during the time you experienced extreme pressure from your superiors, the Commissioner and also the President to produce results in this investigation.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would I be correct to make the deduction that you also then in turn exerted that same pressure downwards to your, towards the other officers responsible?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: You are quite correct Mr Chair.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And also that you received instructions, I think you said directly from the President, that you should deal severely with suspects and never play with them.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You also made sure that your officers underneath you understood that principle very well.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And by saying "yes" you would mean the officers that you would have communicated that too would be Ramaligela, Managa, Nesamari and Sifuwa?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: And Sifuwa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, and no other person other than those.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would I then be further correct to say that these warrant officers, let's call it that, responsible for the investigation expected the lower ranking officers to behave in a certain way, in an aggressive way towards the suspects?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.  Maybe yes and no, I don't know.  I think that depends upon the individual officer who deals with those subordinates of his.  But I will tend to agree that obviously you have to take instructions or you know examples from his officers.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Fine.  Can you perhaps tell us what requirements a policeman had to meet during that stage to actually become a member of the Security Branch?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Requirements, are you now referring to qualifications or what?

CHAIRPERSON: Special qualities, qualifications whatever ...