Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-10-14

MR GOOSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson I will try to follow on the panel's questions and see if I can rescue my original line of questioning.
 Mr Botha I don't think that the question is intended to elicit a response at the level of a constitutional law outline of where power is and who can operate in Cabinet.  Perhaps I can put it very bluntly and you can have a look at it from that point of view, we've had numerous hearings, people come forward, politicians, and say they never authorised anything unlawful.  They didn't know about anything unlawful being authorised.  And as far as they were concerned it was not policy to authorise unlawful actions.  The substance of your submission is along similar lines.  In your experience no unlawful actions authorised by State Security Council or the Cabinet and that you've indicated.  We have operatives, police and military personnel, not just junior operatives but high-ranking members, brigadiers, colonels and so on who are applying for amnesty in droves indicating that they were acting in accordance with authority given to them.  We have commissioners, former Commissioners of Police applying for amnesty, for unlawful actions authorised by, at least in one instance, by a Cabinet Minister and by the former Head of State.  So clearly there were some unlawful actions that were authorised at that very highest level, former State President and Ministers of the Cabinet.  
 The question is how did that happen?  Was it routine?  And who was responsible for ensuring that that in fact occurred?  Were all Cabinet Ministers, were all members of the State Security Council aware of it or were they not aware of it?  And it's really a crisp question addressed to that issue that I am addressing to you.

MR R F BOTHA: I explained that if a Minister felt that an assignment given to him was unlawful either he then should accept responsibility for committing something illegal or unlawful or go and change his assignment.  I have no evidence to indicate to me that on any occasion the Cabinet, who was the body that approved the State Security Council decisions, ever approved any unlawful act.  It would in any case not have been recorded, in my opinion, if that was the case.  And I would like to remind you that General Coetzee was a Commissioner of Police, according to his evidence, I wasn't here, but what I read in the papers was to the effect that he never gave unlawful instructions or illegal instructions to the police.  I do not know whether colleagues acted illegally.  That I can't tell you.

MR GOOSEN: No I accept that.  General Coetzee may have stated one thing but there were other Commissioners of Police, General van der Merwe, for example, his evidence also stated something slightly different to that.  But be that as it may.
 In your experience was it Mr P W Botha's practice, following State Security Council meetings, before State Security Council meetings, prior to Cabinet meetings, after Cabinet meetings, whenever, to call individual Ministers in, or groups of Ministers in for that matter, in informal meetings where matters would have been discussed relating to the business of either State Security Council or Cabinet, in your experience?

MR R F BOTHA: That is, with respect, a practice all over the world where you have Cabinet.

MR GOOSEN: In - I take it that those, you would have been from time-to-time you too would have participated in such meetings?

MR R F BOTHA: Yes.

MR GOOSEN: The proceedings of those meetings would not be minuted, is that correct?

MR R F BOTHA: Correct, but at some stage I started to become suspicious that the conversations might be taped and from then onwards naturally I guarded my words.  (Laughter)

MR GOOSEN: You were probably very wise.  If it's reflected to you that a former Minister indicated that it was fairly routine that that should happen and that in at least one of those instances a decision was conveyed to that Minister that a certain unlawful action should be carried out, how would you respond to that?

MR R F BOTHA: If I am asked to commit it?

MR GOOSEN: If I had to tell you that a former Minister is on record with the TRC as indicating that such meetings were fairly routine and that in at least one of those instances what was conveyed to that Minister was that an unlawful action should be undertaken.

MR R F BOTHA: I don't know what I must comment on it beyond saying that a Minister should then take it up with the Head of State and confront him and say to him I am not prepared to commit something which will violate the oath that I have prescribed to.

MR GOOSEN: You indicate in your submission that you have suspicions that certain actions were unlawful actions were in fact being carried out by members of the security forces and you indicate that in the last portion of your submission.  Do you have any suspicions that actions of an unlawful nature would have been authorised in informal meetings convened by the former President, Mr P W Botha?

MR R F BOTHA: I, Mr Chairperson, I am not prepared to conduct a conversation on the basis of suspicions.  I have no evidence.  I have no evidence whatsoever.  When Franz Josef Strauss, the late Franz Josef Strauss was here he strongly advocated and told us in closed meetings you must release Mr Mandela as fast as possible.  I then got Mr Franz Josef Strauss to convey that message to Mr P W Botha.  The result of that was that we sent Mr Schlebusch to call in Germany with a letter saying to Kohl that maybe the government can decide parole conditions.  Kohl wrote back and said forget it, Germany is not going to touch that at all.  Now in a way that kind of conversation took place between me, the President and Schlebusch.  We did not inform the other colleagues.  In a way it is illegal because I can't, as Minister of Foreign Affairs, appoint a Parole Board.  I can't make such an offer or even the President can't make such an offer, by law it is a given Minister, the man in charge of Correctional Services.   So I respectfully submit that unless I am told, as I have done here now, to reveal the facts, now give me the facts and then I can make a judgement, but I appeal to you also don't put me in a position where without facts on a theoretical issue I must comment on sheer speculation.

MR GOOSEN: Alright, thank you Mr Botha I do appreciate the difficulty that you have.  I won't pursue that.
 Just to more specific matters the TRC has been informed that the bombing of the ANC offices in London was approved by government and we've also been informed, well one of the participants in that exercise has informed the TRC, is on record to the TRC, is indicating that the components for the manufacture of the bomb were in fact smuggled by the diplomatic bag to the South African Embassy in London.  You were not aware of the plans to bomb the ANC offices in London prior to the bombing, is that correct?