Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: From amongst the comrades, I did not see anybody stabbing him.  When he fled, I am the one person who chased him.
	Even in the car, the others remained in the car, because they could not open the door.  I caught up with him, when he fled and I stabbed him.  As I said, there were people who came at that stage.  One person had enquired what was going on and I said that this was a person who had sold us out, and I thereafter left and returned to where the other comrades were.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My instructions are further that the deceased was deprived of money.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in this regard, perhaps if you can just turn to page 15 of the documents, paragraph 3.  It is a submission made by the mother and you can perhaps read the paragraph, 3.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There is a document here, and this is testified to by the mother, that money in cash as well as clothes, were taken.
	What is your comment to that, thank you Mr Chairman?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I do not have knowledge in that regard.  I do not remember anything being taken from the deceased.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In the killing of Mr Ndlandhla Msani, what did you hope to achieve?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: There were many comrades who died during that time under suspicious circumstances, and we will discover that they were informers, even amongst the comrades, who were responsible for selling these people out.
	They will bring the Police and say something to the Police perhaps.  Sometimes they would be working closely with the Police and such people will be killed.
	With regards to Msani as well, if he was indeed guilty of selling out comrades, he would be a problem to us as comrades, and therefore had to be killed.  We would have not have gained anything else besides knowing that we are safe in his absence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that will be all from myself.  Just to make a request Mr Chairman, oh yes, I was going to ask permission from the Chair for him to continue.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: .

MR MSANI: My question is going to be divided into two parts, one the political questions and two, I will put a question as a brother to Ndlandhla.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please just identify yourself.  Are you Mr Msani?

MR MSANI: Yes, Msani.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your first name Mr Msani?

MR MSANI: I am Wellington  Bekumusi Msani, known as Maweza.
	In those years, I was a full time paid organiser of the UDF.  No one automatically became a member of the UDF.  People became members of the UDF through local or community based organisations, like the Youth Organisations, the Civic Organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you can just ask questions Mr Msani.  I think from that the question is, Mr Msani says that people didn't automatically become members of the UDF, you only became a member if you were issued with a membership card.  Did you ever have a UDF membership card?

MR MSANI: There were no membership cards, you know, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever register as a UDF member?

MR MSANI: How did you become a member of the UDF?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I was a supporter of the UDF.

MR MSANI: As far as I know, I was a full time organiser of the UDF as well as part of the ANC, (indistinct) propaganda, a person became a person of the UDF if they were a member of a Youth or Civic or Teachers' Organisation, that is what I know.

MR LAX: Let him answer that statement.  What do you say about what you have just been told?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: As I mentioned before, I was a supporter of the UDF.   I never had a UDF membership card, I once had a membership card for the ANC.

MR LAX: Just hang on.  The issue is really, were you part of a Youth structure, or weren't you?  That is what is being put to you in a sense?  A yes or no would suffice.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: No.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MSANI: Thank you.  It means you were not a member of the UDF, if you were a member of the UDF, what was the role of the UDF in the national democratic structures?

CHAIRPERSON: Let him answer.

MR LAX: One at a time please Mr Msani.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I will just like to explain with regards to the situation that prevailed, so that you will also understand the situation at kwaMakutha.
	Becoming a supporter or joining the UDF was not just a voluntary act, but it was because of the situation that prevailed in kwaMakutha.  As I mentioned before that in 1985, that was when the violence started in kwaMakutha, it started in Unit 1, near my home.
	Unit 4 was an IFP area, and it was an area closest to us and I was traumatised by the people from this area, even before I became a supporter of the UDF.  There were UDF people in our area, who used to explain to us about the UDF and as I explained about Ndodo who used to call us together and would explain to us about the UDF, this was after I had once been terrorised on my way from school by the IFP.
	I had to learn about these things.  That was when I became a supporter of the UDF, from the explanations that I got from those people who were knowledgeable about organisations in my area because as far as the IFP was concerned, if you were residing in Unit 1, you were a member of the IFP.
	Therefore you may be faced with a problem, you could be killed, just because of where you come from.

MR LAX: So, you are saying this Mr Ntuli, if I understand you correctly, that it really depended on where you lived, if that area was predominantly IFP, then you were IFP.  If you lived in another area, then you ended up just by the circumstances of the violence, being or regarding yourself as belonging to the UDF or non-IFP or whatever the case might be.
	Is that how you are putting it?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: There was a time when I had no political knowledge, but the violence had already started by that time.  Even Unit 1, there were people  who were known as UDF members.
	When we were terrorised at school, that was when people started explaining to us about the UDF and they would call us to meetings, explaining about the UDF as well as the IFP and they will put reasons for why the IFP was bad.
	There was also a time during ...

MR LAX: Mr Ntuli, tell us about that stuff.  We really asked you quite a simple question, and you are not answering it.
	Please continue.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: In kwaMakutha township, there was a Youth Congress.  Ndodo was part of this kwaMakutha Youth Congress.
	Secondly, the role of the UDF, there was the armed struggle, mobilisation intelligence, amongst all these killers of the UDF because you became a member of the ANC after leaving the UDF.

MR MSANI: Could you tell us just what the difference was between the ANC and the UDF?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: (No translation)

MR LAX: There is no translation coming up.

INTERPRETER: I do beg your pardon, I was on a wrong channel, I am sorry.

MR LAX: Just repeat his answer for us please.

INTERPRETER: He was explaining that at the time when he joined the UDF, he did not have sufficient knowledge about the organisation, and that it was people like the deceased, Mr Ndodo who would explain to them, what the UDF was about.

MR LAX: Thank you.  That was what I thought he said, but I just wasn't hearing the translation, so I wasn't one hundred percent sure.

MR MSANI: The question that I asked you, the difference between the ANC and the UDF is that the ANC was a political organisation, but the UDF was not, it was a mass organisation.
	Another question relates to the revenge, if you remember quite well the speech of President Mandela at Kings Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Confine your questioning Mr Msani to one language, you ... (tape ends) ...  speak it in one language.

MR MSANI: I will use Zulu.  Revenge attacks were against the policy of the ANC and the UDF.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer to that Mr Ntuli?