Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

CHAIRPERSON: At your trial you did not tell the Court that the crimes you committed, were for political reasons?

MR NGCOBO: I remember saying that.  I cannot recall now but I think I did mention something about the organisation..

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall whether your client mentioned anything at all in his evidence in mitigation because the Judge ...

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, I also only have the information that the Commission have.  I was not involved with that trial itself, but I do agree that he did not testify on his own behalf on mitigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  He didn't say anything.

MR DE KLERK: I did read that in the judgement itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what I am trying to get at.

MR BRINK: I think Mr Chairman, if I may come in here, at page 53 of the bundle, the last line continue the next page, where the trial Judge said even if you were motivating these crimes by a political issue, etc, etc, talking about the ANC and the IFP, that is the bottom of page 53 over to page 54.

MR DE KLERK: In the summary of the facts by the Attorney General, it was stated that it was a political case, so it seems that right through the trial, that it was known that politics had something to do with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that passage in the judgement, on the question of sentence?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember what the judge said.  I was absent minded when the judge talked to me.  I could not even remember the sentenced that I got.  I only remember the judge saying something about the death sentence and there were six death sentences, but I could not remember the years.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, I am sorry to disturb you.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You see, what you said in your application regarding the death of your mother, appears and I must put it to you again, appears to have been governed, or what you did, governed by revenge rather than politics, because the Police weren't taking any action and arresting those who might have been responsible for your mother's death.

MR NGCOBO: I deny that, but what was happening was something known by even a small child in the area.  My mother was killed in the midst of violence that was taking place at the time.  It also did not stop after her death.  I deny that I killed as a revenge for my mother, although that was contributory.

MR BRINK: You did indicate in your evidence in chief, that your mother was killed, I think you said 1990 or 1991.  Can we take it that in fact she was killed in 1991 because this killing spree appears to commence in February 1991 which would have been shortly, surely after her death?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember when my mother was killed.  My family is here, they are the ones who can say.  I cannot remember at all.

MR BRINK: One can assume that that would have been fairly close to the date when you committed the first murder and that is the murder of Dan Cele?  You wouldn't have waited for a year before you started killing people, or six months?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  That is possible.

MR BRINK: Right.  Now, earlier you told the Committee that your mother's hut and the place where she was killed was near Nkulu ward.  How far is that from Oribi Gorge?  I am going through the counts one by one?

MR NGCOBO: It is far although I cannot say how many kilometres.

MR BRINK: How far?

MR NGCOBO: Fairly far.

MR BRINK: And how far is Umthini bus stop from the place where your mother's hut was, before it was burnt down?

MR NGCOBO: It is not very far. Not as far as Oribi Gorge because it is a walking distance.

MR BRINK: Umtini bus stop, how far is that away?

MR NGCOBO: It is also far.  But it is a walking distance, unlike Oribi Gorge.

MR BRINK: Will it take you an hour to get there, or half an hour or a day or what?

MR NGCOBO: About one and a half hour.

MR BRINK: And Mtateni bus stop, how far is that away?  When I say away, I am talking about your mother's hut, in all the questions I am asking now, do you understand.

MR NGCOBO: Mtateni is near uMthini. It is also far, but not that very far.

MR BRINK: Dlovinga?

MR NGCOBO: Dlovinga is nearby.

MR BRINK: Bandlana?

MR NGCOBO: Bandlana is far, but not very far.

MR BRINK: I am sorry, I withdraw that, he was acquitted on that count 15.  My mistake, I apologise.
	You see on the face of the counts against you, it seems that you went on a spree of murders from February 1991 until July 1991, hadn't you had enough revenge by then?

MR NGCOBO: Er...

MR MALAN: Mr Brink, did he not say that it wasn't revenge, and why do you pursue that line if he takes an opposite one?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, with respect I think he said it was partially revenge and also political.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you know, you have referred me to page 53 of the record.  Page 53 of the record conveys to me that it is his Counsel, he says the further factor urged by your Counsel is that there was political violence in the area, there had been killings and burnings by youth league and so on.  There may be some truth in it because it appears that from the evidence, that you specifically chose as your victims, only young men etc.
	What I am trying to convey is that he did not give evidence to say that his offences were political, it was a submission made on his behalf by his Counsel.  The Court then goes on to say even if it were motivated by these crimes, by political issues, it is something which this Court cannot and will not condone.
	The point really is that at no stage had he told the Court that he had committed these crimes for political reasons, it is his Counsel who advanced that point.

MR BRINK: Yes, that did appear from the record.  But in any event, I won't take that aspect any further.
	(Indistinct), I am trying to deal with his application as it stood in paragraph 10(b), and that concludes my questioning, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: .

MR MALAN: Just a few questions and really it is more for information than anything else.  On the court record it is stated that you went for training only for a period of two weeks.  Here evidence was given that it was a month.

MR NGCOBO: I made a mistake.  It was two weeks.  It is my fault.

MR MALAN: And then, what I still find very difficult to
understand, you tell us that you got the list from Dan Cele before you executed him at Oribi Gorge, gave you a list of names, and yet, you don't pursue those people immediately.  Can you explain that to us.

MR NGCOBO: I was pursuing them.  I was looking for them, people like Steleka, and they were also looking for me.  It is just that our ways never met.  Unfortunately, some of them were killed before I got them and others fled to Durban.  I am now no longer involved in this and therefore no longer pursuing those who survived.

MR MALAN: May I just for my own edification, summarise, you are saying to us that the people you killed within the framework of your explanation, were people who were comrades and who were killing people in your organisation within the community, that you had no instructions to kill, that you did that off your own bat, that you decided, you took the initiative, that you preached peace, but whilst the community did not know what you were doing, you were killing off the comrades, is that a fair summary?