Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

ADV DE JAGER: How would they know about Laurens because this was your secret between the two of you?  How would they know that Laurens was involved if you didn't tell them?

WALTER SMILES: I also asked them myself, how did they know that I was involved.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't it news at that stage that you were involved because you had already made a statement in '93, when you said you were involved?

WALTER SMILES: In 1993?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

WALTER SMILES: I can't say whether this statement was linked up to them, I could have given them the same explanation now but it would have implicated Laurens, then there wouldn't have been any reason for that '93 statement, then the statement would have been correct, it wouldn't have been on these lines here.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles, when did you start understanding what the TRC was all about, who explained to you?  Who told you - on that day you didn't know what the TRC was all about, who explained to you what the TRC was all about?

WALTER SMILES: I've got a book now on the TRC.

PROF DE KOKER: When did you get this book?

WALTER SMILES: I got it in '96.

PROF DE KOKER: But you made this statement in '96.

WALTER SMILES: I wanted to understand what the TRC was all about.

PROF DE KOKER: So, when did you get the book?

WALTER SMILES: I got it last year, I can't remember the month.

PROF DE KOKER: Was it after you spoke to Doctor Boraine?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, after I spoke to him.

PROF DE KOKER: Yes, after you spoke to him then, then you got the book?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you get the book before you came here and gave evidence?

WALTER SMILES: The book explained to me what the TRC was all about, they wanted the truth and that was all.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you have that book before you came to testify here in public?

WALTER SMILES: I had it from last year, this book.

PROF DE KOKER: This statement was also made in 1996, and the evidence you gave in front of the Commission on the stage here in '96, you also gave that in '96 - it all happened in that year.  And I want to find out, when you came to talk here when you came and told your story with all the people sitting here, did you know then ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Professor, you say: "When he came and talked here with all the people", it seems as if you're referring to today's meeting or do you mean when he came - when he spoke before the other TRC Commission?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I understand.

ADV DE JAGER: He refers to the previous occasion when all the TRC people were here and you came and gave evidence, I don't know whether it was here or where it was.

WALTER SMILES: Yes, it was in the same hall.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Commissioner.
	Did you have the book then - did you know then before you came here, what the TRC was all about?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I did.

PROF DE KOKER: You knew then?
	Then I ask the Committee to turn to page 51 or volume 2, this is a statement made by Mr Smiles dated 14 August 1996 and apparently part of a document starting on page 49, which is a report of the Investigative Unit and these two documents belong together.  This statement was drawn up after the evidence had been given, so this document was compiled ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think so Mr de Koker, the hearing - when was the hearing?

PROF DE KOKER: I understand it to have taken place in June.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The hearing was on the 11th of June, three days after he had made the first statement.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much.   And this statement was made on the 14th of August, so basically one month later.
	I would like to draw your attention to the last paragraph on 51.  Mr Smiles, this statement, to whom did you make this statement, this one dated 14th of August '96?

WALTER SMILES: ...[tape blank]

PROF DE KOKER: ...[inaudible] of the TRC come to talk to you after you testified here in June '96?

WALTER SMILES: That's right, they came to me again.

PROF DE KOKER: Did they visit you in August?

WALTER SMILES: I can't remember the month.

PROF DE KOKER: In this document which says - it's a statement which you made of 14th of August, you say and I quote
"The first statement I made to the TRC investigators dated 8 June 1996, is false, I made that statement on advice from some friends"
He did not want to give their names.
	Mr Smiles, here you tell the TRC representatives that you made on the 8th of June was false and that you'd been advised by friends to make this false statement.

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't advised by friends, they asked me what happened.

PROF DE KOKER: And what did you say?

WALTER SMILES: I said it wasn't like this, this statement at that stage - you can forget that one.

PROF DE KOKER: I don't quite understand Mr Smiles, what do you mean when you say: "Forget it"?  In this statement you say that you said you made that a wrong statement because friends had advised you to do so.

WALTER SMILES: No, it wasn't a friend who told me, I used my own head.

PROF DE KOKER: Now, why would it stand here, can you explain why it's written there?

WALTER SMILES: Let me just think about this for a minute.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the questions should really be: "Did you tell the person who took this statement from you that you had made that statement on the advice of some friends"?

WALTER SMILES: What happened, I was scared but when they came they produced their cards.

CHAIRPERSON: Look at page 51 at the bottom, it reads
"The first statement I made to the TRC investigators dated 8th June 1996, is false"
Is that what you told the person who took this statement?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, we read further
"I made that statement on advice from some friends"

WALTER SMILES: What happened, they asked me who influenced me - I just said it was a friend but it wasn't a friend, it was myself.  If I have to be honest now, it was me.  There were no friends involved, it's only me.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then lie and say that you made that statement on the advice of friends?

WALTER SMILES: The TRC did ask me but I thought that I must take such a decision but it wasn't a case - I was frightened.

CHAIRPERSON: But why lie if you are frightened?

WALTER SMILES: I thought they were going to take action the exact moment because of a false statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the person that took this statement from you?

WALTER SMILES: Doctor Boraine and Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: So, it was again Sipho and Boraine because I'm not referring to the previous statement, I'm referring to the latest statement on page 51.  Who took this statement from you?

WALTER SMILES: It's the same persons Sipho and Boraine.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I see.  Now, explain to me again, why did you lie, why did you tell them that you were advised by friends to make a false statement?

WALTER SMILES: I was frightened because they asked me who advised me, who instructed me - I was frightened.

CHAIRPERSON: So now, every time you get a fright you lie?

WALTER SMILES: No, Sir.  You know, a person gets a fright, you have - that is human nature.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm trying to establish why was it necessary to lie?

WALTER SMILES: What happened was that I gave them the statement but then they identified themselves as TRC and then already they've written down here, then I realised these are people I can tell truth to but they took a long time to produce their cards - their identity.  When they left the room I actually wanted them to rectify the statement but they'd left already.