Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

MR FALCONER: I do, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I commence questioning, there are further person who have been implicated in these proceedings who I have appeared before or on behalf of before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  I don't have an instruction to appear on behalf of them today.  They have been implicated and they have not been notified.  I've given a list of those persons to Mr Mpshe and depending upon the outcome of the notification I might receive instructions to put further questions to this witness in due course, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Falconer.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, it would appear that you have had a very long and extensive career in crime, would you agree with me?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I was arrested for robbery and I left school.

MR FALCONER: How old were you when you were first arrested for robbery and you left school?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Look at your records, don't ask me, I don't have time.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, I'm asking you a question and you are obliged to answer it.  How old were you when you were expelled from school for the robbery related incident?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was not expelled for such deeds.  I was expelled about the issues of "Black Power" in 1976, not related to what you are asking me.

MR FALCONER: How old were you in 1976?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Please count yourself because I was born in 1962.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, you must please answer the questions if you can.  You say you were born in 1962?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.  You see what he is asking me is not legitimate at all because there are things I'm not given an opportunity to lay before the Commission.  I'm restricted and why is he not restricted?  I was politically active and I was not a criminal as such.  Let him refer his questions to issues that are amnesty related, not anything outside that.  If you think I'm afraid ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, we will determine whether it's relevant or not and if he asks or if anybody asks you questions that are not pertinent or relevant then they will be prevented from doing so.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: He must not ask me this question because I was not afforded an opportunity as to how I got into criminal issues.  So he must not ask me questions that has to do with my criminal involvement but he must ask me questions that has to do with amnesty.  This Boer, I mean ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please, Mr Gwamanda, you must not use this as a forum to insult people, and answer questions when asked.  If the question is irrelevant we will stop it.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: You see I'm not afraid of anything because I was arrested for my car and I'm prepared to serve my sentence in prison.  I never killed - my mother never told me to kill, even in my records.  Why is he asking me illegitimate questions?  You see I worked, I have my ID with me.  He must not ask me about my involvement, criminal involvement.  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please Mr Gwamanda.  We'll take an adjournment now please just so that matters can cool down.  We can't have this going on at the hearing.  We'll just take a five minute adjournment.
	Mr Mchunu?   
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwamanda, it's apparent from your list of criminal convictions that we've been furnished with, page 6 of the bundle, that on that list you've been arrested and charged and convicted in respect of eight offences, do you agree with that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Can I please have a look at the record because I don't have it with me?

CHAIRPERSON: It's on page 6 of the bundle.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Okay, okay, Mr Chairman, let me have a look at it.  Did you say eight?

MR FALCONER: That is correct.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I do agree with that, I'm on my ninth crime.

MR FALCONER: So you'd agree with me that those offences include serious offences of armed robbery and firearm related offences?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR FALCONER: And Mr Gwamanda, as you've just pointed out now, this list is not complete in that you are presently serving a sentence for armed robbery, is that correct?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was not armed.  The Judge said he was sentencing me with regards to my car but I do agree with you on these other crimes.

MR FALCONER: Was the incident relating to the armed robbery on the Blue Ribbon Bakery in Tongaat?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I don't even know that bakery, I had nothing to do with that.  I just heard about it when I was arrested and nobody has claimed that I robbed anybody anything.  I was arrested for the car.

MR FALCONER: And in addition then, Mr Gwamanda, it would also seem apparent from your evidence that you were involved in a further armed robber, that relating to the pension moneys.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is correct.  I also stated this at the Regional Court.  I was a state witness because I was involved in the planning but not in the actual robbery.

MR FALCONER: In regard to the pension robber where you correctly state you were a state witness, is it further correct that there were no convictions emanating from the charges and the evidence which you gave at that trial, all of the accused were acquitted?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: What was said was that Judge MacNally did not charge them, that is the Attorney-General.  With regards to that evidence, the evidence was covered up.  I wrote a letter to the Attorney-General regarding the reasons for not prosecuting these people and even today I'm still waiting for the prosecutor's or the Attorney-General's decision on the prosecution on those people. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gwamanda, could I just you on this, you mentioned that you were a state witness.  So it never got to trial?  You didn't go into Court and take the oath and testify?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It did go to trial.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it did.  And what happened at the trial?   I'm a bit confused because you said that you testified at the trial but at the same time you say that MacNally didn't prosecute.  So I'm just a bit confused as to how it came to be in the trial situation if there was a refusal to prosecute, could you just explain that please?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I think the Attorney-General conducted an inquest.  I have the letter from the Attorney-General and that is the letter I had written to the Attorney-General.  He advised that he had conducted an inquest.  The case had already been withdrawn because the detectives had covered up the evidence and I was arrested because I had divulged the information regarding the crime.
	I informed the Attorney-General about this and it was stated categorically that the Attorney-General had not prosecuted them.  I did say that I had informed the Attorney-General about a crime that had happened on the 24th of November.  I do not know up to this day why the Attorney-General did not prosecute or did not charge them.  I was not given the reasons.  
	I even wrote to George Howard and he told me that the case was under the Attorney-General's discretion.  I have the letters that I have written to both these persons.  I made every attempt to explain or to give information about these crimes and these people were not charged.  
	Even in the Court tapes it did appear that they were not prosecuted.  I am not sure why they were not charged because I was the prime witness, I witnessed this crime and I knew about it.

MR FALCONER: For the record, Mr Gwamanda, one of those persons whom I represent in these proceedings, Mr Vusi Mate was one of the accused in that matter relating to the pension robbery and he instructs me that he together with others stood trial whereat you testified as a state witness, and on the basis of the unreliability of your evidence they were all acquitted.