Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-25

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is not correct, there were no police vehicles assisting, I did not see the police vehicles.  It was only our group, our members, in Boipatong.  There were no police vehicles.

MS TANZER: So in fact Mr Nosenga's version is incorrect in your opinion?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MS TANZER: When were you arrested?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I do not remember the month but it was not on the 18th or the 19th, it was quite sometime thereafter, three or four months thereafter.

MS TANZER: When do you allege that Mr Nosenga joined the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: After the attack, after the attack had taken place in Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Can you be a little more specific?  One week, one month?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might be a month or two after the attack.

MS TANZER: Did you know Mr Nosenga personally?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MS TANZER: Did you ever have any conversations with him?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes.

MS TANZER: And during these conversations was the attack ever discussed?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MS TANZER: Did he ever ask you questions about the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MS TANZER: Did he ask you about your participation in the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MS TANZER: So how can you explain why Mr Nosenga has such detailed knowledge about events leading up to the attack and the attack itself?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I do not know, he might have heard of the activities from the newspapers because this was a very famous news story.  He might have read it from the newspapers, he might have seen it from the television, this was known world wide.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Mr Nosenga has no education and cannot read a newspaper and he had no access to televisions in the hostel as I understand from your evidence or the evidence of your co-applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm not too sure whether this witness said that there was no television in the hostel at all.  Were there televisions in the hostels?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: There was no television in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: In the entire hostel no one had a television?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: In our room we did not have a television.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the other rooms?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes there were televisions in other rooms.

CHAIRPERSON: That was prior to the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Did you see no police vehicles in and around Boipatong during the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Now in your evidence you said that you were advised you could stay in the hostel.  What were the conditions imposed upon you for joining the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It was expected of me to be a member of the IFP as I've run away from the township, afraid of the attacks from the comrades.

MS TANZER: And being a member of the IFP what was asked of you in the hostel, what were your duties as a member?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: There were no duties assigned to me, I was just an inhabitant of the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Once at the hostel were you employed?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MS TANZER: You mentioned a meeting after the attack that you came late to while Themba Khosa was addressing this meeting.  How long would you say this meeting took place?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I do not know how long the meeting took place.

MS TANZER: Approximately?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might have been an hour or thirty minutes.

MS TANZER: Now you gave evidence that you heard nothing about the burning of the loot by the time you arrived at this meeting?  What was he talking about?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He was telling us to co-operate with the police because they are investigating the Boipatong issue.

MS TANZER: For a whole hour?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: There are other things as well.  He said we should not fight back because the people of the hostel were angry, they wanted to fight the police.  He told us to come down and give our co-operation.

MS TANZER: Was Themba Khosa angry at this meeting?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No he wasn't.

MS TANZER: Well how was his attitude towards the hostel dwellers having just attacked Boipatong?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He was very sad, he asked us what happened but nobody told him the truth.

MS TANZER: So at this meeting he was basically giving over the chair to the audience asking who could offer information, is that what you're saying?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He asked that question but nobody responded to it.

MS TANZER: You said you weren't employed at the hostel, how were you maintained?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Red Cross supplied us with food parcels.  Often times the people of Kwamadala would gather some money so that we can buy food.

MS TANZER: Where did you get the money from?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: The elderly men at Kwamadala would gather some money and buy us food.

MS TANZER: Did you ever break into shops or steal money or food in order to maintain yourself?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MS TANZER: Did you have a choice in participating in this attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I did not have a choice.  I really did not have a choice.  We were told to attack, before that we were told to take white headbands, all men were told to go, only women were supposed to stay behind.  There was nothing I could do.

MS TANZER: Well what age were you considered a man?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, I'm not too sure what's the relevance of these questions, is there an issue about whether this applicant take part in the attack?

MS TANZER: I didn't get the question Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: As there an issue as to whether this man took part in the attack?

MS TANZER: No there isn't Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why are we asking these questions?

MS TANZER: You're right Mr Chairman.
	During the attack did you leave yourself with anybody or did you make sure that you were standing next to a person with a weapon, a firearm?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MS TANZER: And who was your accomplice, who were you with all the time?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is Damara, Damara Xongo.

MS TANZER: Alright my final question is, I put to you that I understand you have denied allegations of Mr Nosenga.  He places you in a Casspir on the night of the attack, taking you to Boipatong.  This is his statement and this is the evidence he is going to be giving.  What is your comment?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is not correct, that is a blatant lie from Nosenga's side.  Nothing of that sort happened.  We walked to Boipatong and walked back.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that you are lying and that Mr Nosenga is being open with this Committee.

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I do not know anything of what he said.  I am telling the truth today.  We were on foot to Boipatong, on foot back from Boipatong, no police casspirs, no police vehicles.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are you also known as Lucky?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We will be - I beg your pardon, I should start with Mr Mapoma.  Do you have any questions Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson, I thought if any questions I do have I may have after Mr Berger has cross-examined the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger let me warn you that we intend taking a break at 11 o'clock.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, might I ask if we take the break now instead of at 11 because in five minutes time I going to be right in the middle of a point which I wouldn't want to break.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment now, we will come back at 11.25.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkwanazi, let me remind you that you're still under oath to speak the truth.   Yes Mr Berger?