Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.  Yes I agree because there was no way the court could have written lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was in summer according to you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, it was not winter, but summer.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was daylight at the time?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sun had risen?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, it was still in the morning, but yes, there was sunshine.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it such that you could see a person from a distance?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, there was still morning dew, an indication that it was still in the morning.  Now this person said:  "I had come here to kill Sinangwenye, to shoot him."  And I said:  "Mashinela told you so?" and he said:  "Yes."  "For what reason?", I asked and he did not want to come up with the truth.  That is when I made a decision, a decision to the effect that he would not be in the position to give us the truth or he doesn't seem to be prepared to give us the truth, maybe we should make him lie down.

CHAIRPERSON: Without interrupting you, when he gave you that which you saw as the truth, was there nothing or should I say had you not beaten him up?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, we had not yet beaten him up, he was just talking voluntarily, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Without being beaten up?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that made you suspect that he was not giving you the truth?  Is it that he did not indicate why Mashinela wanted you dead?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You then made a decision that he should lie down?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For what reason?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Because they said discipline should be better, because he might give us the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you now continue giving us your evidence?

MR MALAN: Sorry, who are they?  Who are the people, you say "they said discipline will be better, that will give us the truth"?  Did you say so?  The interpreter said "they said so".  I'm sorry, did you say that he should be disciplined?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you the one who made a decision that because he was not giving you the reason why Mashinela said you should be killed, then you made the decision that he should lie down?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.  Yes, he had to lie down.

CHAIRPERSON: You are the one who made the decision?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, the decision came from me.

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue now, telling us what happened after the person was made to lie down.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Some fishing cane was brought, a cane of this length.  That is the cane that was used to beat him up with and as he was lashed, he started saying:  "Wait let me explain" and I thought, it looks like it's working.  He then explained.  I wanted him to explain why he wanted to come and do whatever he wanted to do and he said:  "I had come to shoot you - or to shoot Sinangwenye because at the Virginia Airport, it looked like the people were powerful and this is because of Sinangwenye.  The one problematic person among these people is Sinangwenye himself.  If we could get hold of him it will be better."   They would not be in an awkward position and  once I joined this group, the situation changed, so he had better be killed.  That is when I indicated to him that:  "when you are saying Sinangwenye sent you, or Mashinela sent you to Sinangwenye, I am the person you have been sent to and Mashinela is my brother.  We are blood brothers.  Look at me carefully, you'll see the similarities" and he agreed with me and I said:  "That's my blood brother, the one that sent you to kill me" and I indicated to him that he would not know the reason for the instruction to kill me, he might have been sent to kill me for inheritances and not that which he thought it was and he was brave, if not stupid, to pick up a firearm and attack a person unknown to him and I indicated to him that I left my home because I was being shot at, I got shot at, I almost died.  Similarly, you have come here to attack me with a firearm.  It is obvious that I would not have escaped because look at your firearm."  This SP12 rounds of ammunition, with a double barrel firearm was such that I could not have escaped.

ADV DE JAGER: You've now mentioned that he might have thought that your brother sent him, you wouldn't know, but it might be trouble about inheritance.  Was there any trouble about inheritance between you and your brother?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I was just giving him an example.  We do not have such a problem.  He left home whilst I was still young, that was in 1971.  He deserted home until we met at that place, therefore there is no inheritance over which we could have fought, because he left when I was still young and I was told about my big brother as I was growing up, I had not met him until later, that was Mashinela.  Fortunately, when I went that side, I indeed met him.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay you continue now.  After you've told him this, what happened then?  After you told the deceased?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: After that I told him that;  "When you left your place to come here, you knew that you were coming here to kill, that means that you had sacrificed your life.  How sure were you that you would succeed in shooting me here, and run back to Shayamoya?"  He could not give me an answer to that and I said to him: "According to me, you too should be killed" and the other group protested.  The group protested saying that he had told us the truth and instead we should beat him up severely and release him after that.  He would never dare come back again.
	I thought of this as a good suggestion and they said we should release him and I said:  "That is your opinion, if you are suggesting that he should be released" and they said:  "Yes, we should first of all beat him severely before releasing him" and I started wondering if this person will not come back here, but at the same time I thought that's a good idea, that we beat him up and release him and the beating continued and after that Sepo Nduli said: "Now you can go" and he left.  
	Before he was long away, I started thinking, thinking about the people who were not here when this person was apprehended and started worrying about the very same people who were involved in his apprehension and I started wondering what will happen when he gets to Shayamoya in that condition.  They would ask what happened, he would tell them and on coming back, they would come back in a group and they were more than us in numbers and they would overpower us, there were only 16 of us.  In other words, these many souls would be lost.

MR MALAN: You said that you started thinking about the people who were present at the apprehension, but not at the beating, who were those people?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: The 4 people.

MR MALAN: What are their names?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it still the same group that was present when you saw him, when he was standing under the guava tree?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, it was still the same group.

CHAIRPERSON: The number is still the same.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, the number of the people was still the same.

CHAIRPERSON: And the people that you are talking about here are people who were from Shayamoya and people who would see him in that state of being beaten?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: But you also said that when - Sepo Nduli said that he could be released, he told him he could now go.  Is that correct?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.  He is the one who said:  "Now you can go because we are done with you."

MR MALAN: And the man left?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.