Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MONGESI CHRISTOPHERMANQINA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard the affidavit read out by your counsel, made by you?

MR MANQINA: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the correctness of its contents?

MR MANQINA: Yes I do confirm.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr Manqina, I just want to refer firstly to paragraph 9.3 ofyour affidavit. You say,
"WhenPASO executive members ordered us to go out, prepare the ground workfor APLA and to make the township ungovernable, I regarded this as aninstruction to also harm, injure and kill White people".
	Now how did youcome to put that interpretation upon his order?

MR MANQINA: Will you please repeat the question, I don't understand clearly.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: In paragraph 9.3 you said that when PASO executive members ordered you to goout and prepare the groundwork for APLA and to make the township ungovernableyou regarded that as an instruction to harm, injure and kill White people. WhatI want to know is how did you come to interpret that order in the way that youdid?

MR MANQINA: According to my interpretation as we were given these instructions we were toldthat we must kill anyone we see in the road so that if we did such a thing thiswill be heard by the government and the government will respond to our grievances.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Was there a specific instruction given to you to go out and kill White peopleor not?

MR MANQINA: Clearly there was a specific instruction although they did not give it to usdirectly, was that we must kill White people. But if you can listen to it clearlyyou can see that this instruction says that we must kill anyone in front ofyou so that this country can be ungovernable.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Do I understand your evidence to be that you were then given a specific instructionto go out and kill White people who might happen to be in the township?

MR MANQINA: "One Settler, one bullet", that's what it means.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No Mr Manqina you must try and answer my question because it's very importantin your own interests.
	When these orderswere given to you to make the township ungovernable was a specific instructiongiven to you to kill White people who happened to be in the location or township?The answer requires a yes or no.

MR MANQINA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Who specifically instructed you to kill White people in the township?

MR MANQINA: It was Simpiwe.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: If an ambulance came there to fetch Black people, but the ambulance was drivenand manned by Whites but coming on a mercy mission to help Black people, wouldyou have killed the ambulance workers?

MR MANQINA: The ambulance and the journalists were not targeted because we knew that theywere there to help people.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: And Amy Biehl, as far as you knew, might also have been there to help you people?

MR MANQINA: We did not know about that because we did not know Amy.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Were you at any stage present when people, just before she died, implored youto leave her alone as she was a supporter and a comrade?

MR MANQINA: I did not hear that.

JUDGE WILSON: Looking at the thing you saw her driving a car in which there were, what, threeBlack people, wasn't it obvious she was giving them a lift?

MR MANQINA: Please repeat your question Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Looking at what you saw, that there was this young White girl, driving a carat five o'clock in the afternoon with three Black passengers, wasn't it obviousshe was giving them a lift somewhere?

MR MANQINA: No, because I was talking to a person at this time. I did not see when theystopped the car. I just saw when she was stoned, I then went there to help.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You joined the pack, is that what you are saying? You joined a pack of murderers?

MR MANQINA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Surely when you got the order to render the township ungovernable didn't thatmean merely to destroy municipal property, to stop paying rent, to destroy ordamage State property, wasn't that the order?

MR MANQINA: Before answering your question I want to know about the rent you are talkingabout.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well was there ever a rent boycott in your township?

MR MANQINA: No I don't know about that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Very well then I withdraw that aspect and I put it to you this way again. Wasn'tthe instruction which you received to render the township ungovernable confinedto damaging State property, Municipal property and that sort of thing?

MR MANQINA: Yes that is correct.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You must be quite clear. Was that instruction confined to causing damage toMunicipal property and government property?

MR MANQINA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So then it didn't include the senseless killing of White people who happenedto be in the township at the time?

MR MANQINA: It is the same thing because she was White, one of the oppressors, that's howwe saw her.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You had no mercy in your heart that day?

MR MANQINA: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I go to paragraph 9.2 of your affidavit. You say that you killed Amy Biehl andthe reason that you killed her was to get the government to abolish matriculationfees?

MR MANQINA: Yes, that is correct.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: How did you possibly think that the killing of a single, unarmed, young Whitewoman would bring about your objective relating to examination fees?

MR MANQINA: The government would react when a White person would be killed. The governmentdid not want Black people to kill White people, so by killing Amy Biehl thatwould make us proud and the government would be able to respond to our grievancesas Black people, because the government did not want to respond to our grievancesat that time and we were going to continue with that if it did not respond.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Were you going to send a message to the then government that unless you abolishmatriculation fees we will continue to kill unarmed, single, defenceless womenwho might happen to be in the township?

MR MANQINA: Yes that is correct because our own people died, they were killed by White people.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: But you were told subsequently that you had made a mistake in the killing ofAmy Biehl by your, was it the PAC organisation?

MR MANQINA: Please repeat your question.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Were you told subsequently that you had done wrong in killing Amy Biehl, andthat you were told that by the PAC or an affiliate of the PAC?

MR MANQINA: In prison these people did not visit me to tell me this. Some of them came andthey told us that I made a mistake in taking part in killing Amy because shewas helping us in our liberation as Africans.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You see I find it very, very difficult to understand how a dispute with theauthorities over school fees could justify the killing of an innocent personwho happened, as one of the members of the Committee indicated to you, was clearlyassisting her Black friends in the township.

MR MANQINA: How was I supposed to identify that she was helping Africans?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I put to you again, how could her killing possibly resolve a dispute which PASOmight have had with the authorities regarding the abolition of matriculationfees? How could it?

MR MANQINA: As I have already said before, her death would have made the government to answerour grievances.

JUDGE WILSON: Did it make the government answer your grievances?

MR MANQINA: Yes we thought that the government would answer if we killed Amy because nowwe are liberated and we will not kill White people again.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr Manqina, thinking about it now would you not agree with me that it is absolutenonsense to suggest that the killing of Amy Biehl would have solved your problemrelating to school fees? Do you not think it's absolutely nonsense?

MR MANQINA: (The speaker's microphone is not on)

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I am afraid you will have to start again or are you able to answer the question?

MR MANQINA: You can ask the question.