Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

CHAIRPERSON: He demonstrated scars on his arms, just above the wrist, on the outer side of his arms.

MR STANDER: Mr Makhubalo, you showed us the scars on both of your arms on the outside.  What caused these marks?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Can you please explain your question thoroughly?

MR STANDER: The marks on your arms, what caused these marks?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I do not know what to say Chairperson, because every time I look at my hands, I just feel like crying.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you have on your arms that caused those marks?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: The handcuffs.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  After you were suffocated, you said it was between two and three times, what happened then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They took me to Tereblanche's office.

MR STANDER: What happened there?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was put on a chair and papers were put on the table.

MR STANDER: Tell us was Mr Tereblanche's office on the same floor as that of Mr Mamome?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No.

MR STANDER: What documents were placed in front of you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: These were the papers so that I could put down my statement about our skipping.

MR STANDER: Were you prepared to make a statement?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No.

MR STANDER: What happened when you were not prepared to make a statement?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He hit me with a fist.

MR STANDER: Where did he hit you with the fist?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He wanted to hit me right in the middle of the face, he ducked, he hit me on the cheek.

MR STANDER: Just for the record the witness indicated by putting his hand on his face, that he had been hit from the front, he turned his head.  He showed that he was hit on the left side of the face.	What happened ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before that, who hit you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is Tereblanche.

MR STANDER: After you had been hit in the face, what happened then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I also returned his blow with my blow.

MR STANDER: Had the handcuffs been taken off at that stage?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: When I got into his office, I was not cuffed.

MR STANDER: When you tried to hit back, what happened then?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, he said he hit back, he didn't try to hit back.  He returned the blow with a blow Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: This is true, I will accept it.  What happened then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: There was another guy called Tsoametsi in that office where I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Called who?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He is called Tsoametsi.

MR STANDER: What did you want to tell us about the presence of Mr Tsoametsi?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Because his boss was beaten with a fist, he did not accept this.

MR STANDER: Because what?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am saying because his boss could not be beaten by a kaffir, then turmoil started.

MR STANDER: When you say that a fight broke out, can you tell us in more detail who all took part in this fight?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Stander, I think you rush a little bit too much ahead with the witness.  I think he should tell us what happened.  He hasn't as yet told us about the further assaults.  You lead him a little bit too much.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I am trying to get through this as quickly as possible.  Instead of leaving the witness to give his own account, I try to give it as brief as possible.  I am aware that it may be leading.
	If I am prejudicing anybody, that is not my intention, but I will do what the Chairman tells me to.
	When this exchange of blows happened, what happened then?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You have told us that Tsoametsi did not accept the fact that his boss be beaten by a kaffir, and what happened?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is Tereblanche and Tsoametsi.

MR STANDER: Were there other persons who joined in later?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, a lot of them.  Can I please quickly explain what happened there.  It is Swanepoel, Mamome, Erasmus and Miningwa.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry Swanepoel?  Could you kindly repeat the names a bit slower so that I could write them down.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is Swanepoel, Mamome, Erasmus and Motsamai, Ngo, Kopi and Miningwa.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us today what each of them did to you separately?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, it is going to be difficult to remember specifically each individual's part.  I remember that Tereblanche used a cricket bat to hit me over the side.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did, who used a cricket bat?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Tereblanche.

MR STANDER: For the record the witness indicated he had been hit on the right side of the hear, just above the ear. How long did this torture carry on?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, we went into that room at about ten to eleven.  Myself and China left that room at about eleven at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Ten to eleven in the morning or at night?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We got into that building in the morning, we went out at eleven at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when all this fighting and assault took place?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was in Mr Tereblanche's office.  Can I please explain something before I forget?  At that time when these men attacked me, they stole our R1 500-00.

MR STANDER: Could you tell us what you mean by that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am saying at the time of the assault, because they were doing everything possible on me, my money to the value of R1 500-00 disappeared.

MR STANDER: Where did this money come from.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: China gave me that money.

MR STANDER: What was the purpose of this money?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Because we were on our journey, 19 in number, we were supposed to have food to eat.  Now we were going to use this money for that reason.

MR STANDER: Do you mean for the period you were going to stay at Lesotho?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Okay.  When you left, when you were taken out of the building that evening, did you move down the passage?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Did you see anything against the walls?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: There were blood spills on the wall.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us where that came from?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I think these were the blood stains of my comrades because we could hear their screaming.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken that evening after you left the Security Branch offices?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was taken to Heidedal police station to be locked up and China was taken to Parkroad police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say the police station you were taken to again, please.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was taken to Heidedal police station.

MR STANDER: Would you tell us where China was taken to?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: China was taken to Parkroad police station.

MR STANDER: What was your physical condition when you were taken to the police station?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was bleeding, I was swollen from head, I do not want to mention the ribs.  My clothes were wet in blood and they gave me another clothes.

MR STANDER: Did you get any medical treatment?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I spent three weeks there in that condition.

MR STANDER: Were you taken back to the Security police offices the next day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Who took you, can you remember?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I do not remember very well, but I know one of them was Motsamai.

MR STANDER: What happened to you the next day when you were taken to the Security police offices?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They started interrogating me.

MR STANDER: Were you at all assaulted during that day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was assaulted heavily.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken that evening?

ADV DE JAGER: By whom was these assaults carried out?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Swanepoel and Tereblanche were taking turns every day.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken that evening?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was taken back to Heidedal police station.

ADV DE JAGER: You said Swanepoel and Tereblanche were taking turns every day.  Where did this assault take place, in whose office, could you perhaps tell us?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: These were taking place at their offices.