Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: I do hear your question, but I don't understand it clearly because I could not remember what you are talking about.
	What I do remember is that when I was passing this way, I met a bridge, Mbashi bridge and there was a person who was washing a car, E20 on the bridge.  There was another person but I didn't take notice, but I did see one person except for this kombi, this E20.
	When I crossed the bridge, I went up to a village but the houses, I couldn't see the houses and the people there wouldn't be able to see what was happening.

MR BOTMA: The bottom line is that if you were on the higher level than the place where you were parked, then you could see the truck and the bakkie being parked there?

ZAMA THUTHA: When we were on the hill and the other person were, please explain your question, I don't understand it.

MR BOTMA: If a person was on higher ground than you were, he would have noticed the truck as well as the van?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is what you say, but I am not saying that.  What I am saying is that close to the truck, near to the truck, as we were parked, maybe they could see the truck because of the height of the truck.  However, it would be hard to see the car, because there was a bush at the side.
	It would then be difficult to see the car.

MR BOTMA: Just get back to after the point you parked, you assisted the co-accused to drag Donnie towards the spot where you left her, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: You are saying that we dragged her.  I did not say that.  Please put it as I had said it.  I did not say that we dragged her.

MR BOTMA: Was she dragged at all by anybody on that day, in your presence?

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't know about her being dragged.

MR BOTMA: Was she resisting to some extent that somebody had to use force to take her further on?

ZAMA THUTHA: We did not use force.  However, she was held by the arm, but I could see that she was resisting, however, she did end up going when she realised that I was coming as the second person.  As I was coming close to her, to help lower the fence so that she could be taken over the fence.
	She was taken over the fence without resistance.

MR BOTMA: I've got a note here where you testified, she had to be dragged.

MR LAX: We all have the same note.  That was your evidence earlier this morning.

ZAMA THUTHA: What you have written is not right.  You have oppressive ways as we sit in this Committee, I have noticed this, even from the first week when Madasi was here, that you pick and choose in this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We make a record of what you say, it doesn't help you subsequently to pretend you didn't say it.
	We all have the same record that you said she had to be dragged, she didn't want to go.

MR LAX: Even your lawyer is nodding his head in agreement, that is what you said.  Please, we are not here to trick you, we are here to try and hear the truth from you and where you make mistakes or you say things that you now deny you said, it is our duty to put them to you and ask you to clarify them.
	We are not oppressing you, we are trying to get to the truth and it is our duty to do that.  We want you to understand that.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean we are oppressing you, but we have to point out to you the contradictions.

INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter find out exactly which word the applicant used, because the word "pull" and "drag" in Xhosa is the same word.  Could I have permission to ask the applicant which word he used exactly.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Listen to the interpreter.

ZAMA THUTHA: I said that the comrade held her by the arm, I then helped by the fence, so that she can be taken over the fence.

MR BOTMA: So did you use the word "pull" then, not "drag"?

ZAMA THUTHA: She was pulled by the arm.

MR BOTMA: By both of you?

ZAMA THUTHA: No.

MR BOTMA: In your evidence during the trial, you testified that she was bleeding, but could not talk at that stage.  Today you are saying that she was speaking English, which version is now the correct one?

ZAMA THUTHA: All this that you are saying, I did not say.  I said that I did not understand anything that she was saying, it was not audible.  I did not say she spoke English, you are not saying what I said.  You are giving me problems.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Thutha, again I must just correct your recollection.  You definitely said she was speaking in English, you didn't understand her.

ZAMA THUTHA: I am getting tired now.

MR LAX: We all are getting tired, it is a long day, but we have a job to do and if you want us to hear your application, you've got to find the energy so that we can get this thing going.
	Now, please try and help us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Please tell the Committee, if you don't understand it and you want it to repeat what you have told them, tell them.  They are, you are going to be assisted. ...(tape ends)
 ...[inaudible] is going to be repeated to you, that you be reminded of what you have said.  It's not going to help saying you didn't say that.  If you don't remember saying it, say it to the Committee so that it may help you.

INTERPRETER: The witness is not audible.

ZAMA THUTHA: It's just that I'm tired, I'm very tired, can we adjourn?

UNKNOWN: Before we might do that, if I can be of some assistance simply because I'm sitting right here.  The word I recall you using was: ...[no English translation] it's just to assist the interpreter and that's that interpretation I think of - she was speaking English, that was then brought across to us.  Just to assist you and to show you that we're not trying to be difficult, we're just trying to assist you in remembering some of the things you said and to reconcile these things where you are able to.

ZAMA THUTHA: I really need a break.  I'm not alright, I'm looking at a policeman that beat me up and I'm not okay.  This has disturbed me greatly.  Maybe he can sit aside or something, I can't keep on looking at him, he's in my view, he is disturbing me.

MR LAX: We're just going to check if lunch is nearly ready or what the position is.
	Mr Kulman, in the meantime - please can we just calm down, in the meantime - I beg your pardon, sorry Mr Thutha, I apologise, in the meantime while we're checking, the lunch isn't quite ready, can you persevere for another 5 minutes or so?  The man you were worried about has now left.  Let's see if we can just finish some of these issues before we break for lunch because it's not ready yet and it would be silly to break now if there's no lunch available for everybody.  So, please can you try to persevere, it will help us a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR BOTMA: All this evidence was given whilst your attorney was leading you and you were giving your evidence in chief, when you testified of the dragging the speaking of English.  Now, lets get to the point.  Was she speaking in English or was she speaking inaudible?

ZAMA THUTHA: It was not audible at the time.  As I've said there was a noise, the truck was making a whole lot of noise.  The gates at the back were making a noise and the truck was making a noise driving and also it was a gravel road.

MR LAX: Sorry, you're a bit confused .  We were talking about the time once you'd got to Mbashe where you were leaning to assist to get her over the fence and all that stuff, that's what we were talking about.

ZAMA THUTHA: No, she did not speak, she did not say anything that I heard.  I did not hear her speak.

MR BOTMA: So you ...[inaudible] morning that she was speaking English was not correct or was incorrect?

ZAMA THUTHA: If I said that I was mistaken.

MR BOTMA: Did she speak at any time or did she ask you at any time anything, from the time that you got to the truck until the time that you last saw her?