Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: Fine.
"Street committees had been set up and there was very, very little discipline over the people in control of street committees.  Street committees had been set up with proper intentions but there was very little control over the street committees and unfortunately violent acts occurred".

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja well you know I was part of the leadership of the Anti-apartheid movement and I resided in Soweto and I will recall that at all times, looking at the structures that we had established in the community we would be concerned about ensuring that we give the necessary direction.  There were times when our capacity to give direction was impaired and that was during, in particular, the period of the state of emergency.

MR JOSEPH: Correct.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: But we did not feel that a situation existed in Soweto where we could no longer intervene and at times prevail on loyal members of the movement.

MR JOSEPH: At times he would prevail and other times he would not prevail things would take place.  I have no intention to try and embarrass anybody, my only intention is to try to elicit from you eminent people information which could be used by this Committee in order to do their task.  I am not antagonistic.  I accept that everything you say is the truth and that you have no hidden agenda or anything but it is to people like you that we look to find assistance because you were on the ground and you knew what was going on.  And one of the difficulties you had in controlling loyal members of the ANC is manifested by what happened with Mrs Mandela.  You, your Committee, you as individuals formed a view that what was going on in the Mandela household was not in the interest of anybody.  Is that correct?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja we did form that impression.

MR JOSEPH: You did not have sufficient authority yourselves to impose any discipline on Mrs Mandela and as a result of that you went to the unusual length of communicating directly with her husband who was in prison and at the same time communicating in writing to the President of the ANC, correct?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: That's correct.

MR JOSEPH: I have read your submissions and the documents and I get the distinct impression that your Committee formed the view that the allegations which were made against Mrs Mandela, primarily by the members of the community whose integrity you accepted and who you've excluded as being part of any third force, that their allegations relating to her unlawful acts, I do not want to be specific, we can take that a little further, but in regard to her unlawful acts, when I say unlawful acts let me qualify it and perhaps temper my language,  the unlawful acts committed by young men who paraded about as members of this Club, you were satisfied that they were doing things that were wrong, correct?

MR MOKOENA: It's a very long-winded question.

MR JOSEPH: But very easy to understand.

MR MOKOENA: Ja but what is the gist of your question because it is so circum locutis?

MR JOSEPH: Mr Mokoena I am trying to avoid getting involved in debates and having problems with language and semantics.  I recognise, I think I understand the purpose of this Commission, now I repeat, your Committee formed the view that the members of the Mandela Football Club, under the tutelage or any other word you want to use to describe their relationship with Mrs Mandela, that these young men were not behaving correctly, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes that is correct.

MR JOSEPH: Let me try and expand on what I mean by behaviour and then I'll use the word behaviour so as to reduce the length of the sentence and we know what we mean.  Their behaviour included allegations of rape, it included allegations of assault, it included allegations of kidnapping and it included allegations of murder, you came -is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's true.

MR MOKOENA: It's true inasfar as there were allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: You have to have two answers.

MR MOKOENA: No, no, we just want to answer precisely as you are coming that that is true inasfar as there were allegations.

FRANK CHIKANE: Can I just clarify this issue Chairperson.  That's why I have been careful when I answer that I say when it's my own opinion say this is my personal opinion so that, because we are a collective and we remember things differently and were involved in different things, and I have been careful in saying those things which we agree on and we had a common understanding documented and we say so.  But on those issues that are personal opinions we declare that they are.  And we didn't plan that one person will answer for us.  I think we will try to manage that situation better.

MR JOSEPH: My standpoint throughout is to try and elicit from you eminent people information or views that you had arrived at after mature consideration and after consulting with people in the community.  And my lasting impression of the document you sent to the President of the ANC is that you were satisfied in your own mind that this behaviour was taking place, I do not define the word behaviour any longer, that this behaviour was taking place, that you had brought this to the attention of Mrs Mandela, may I pause and ask for an answer.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: That Mrs Mandela was not prepared to heed your warnings, that you found yourselves at that time as being activists without any recourse to any structure of law, that you at that stage were then forced to go to the leader of the movement and ask the leader of the movement to use his influence to bring this situation to an end.

MR MOKOENA: That's true.

MR JOSEPH: That's true.  I also do not propose to waste time by taking you to documents to show that perhaps my memory is correct.  If my memory is incorrect then forgive me and somebody will correct me.  Mrs Mandela in fact threatened you gentlemen in this way, she was not prepared to heed your warnings and told you that she going to announce that she was going to resign from the ANC.

MR MOKOENA: That's not true.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja I seem to remember and we can refer to the documents.

MR JOSEPH: Yes let's.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: At least in one meeting where I was present she did say so.

MR MOKOENA: I don't remember that.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I think if you check the statements you will find ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Annexure C last paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Aubrey don't hit it too hard and please just be careful with the rustling of the paper and so on.  Thank you.

MR VALLY: Annexure C page 4, the last paragraph.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Mokoena I just want to win your confidence, Mr Mokoena the last paragraph of the document
"She told us....."
and I exclude the words that are unimportant -
"She told us that she was contemplating holding a press conference in which she will publicly announce that she is resigning from the ANC".

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja, as I am saying that I did not quite remember in which annexure this matter would have appeared but I do remember that she told us that.

MR JOSEPH: I am on your side.  (General laughter)

MR MOKOENA: I don't think it's a question of sides, it's a question of the truth.

MR JOSEPH: Now I want to do, I am not going to become involved in the detail, I just want to articulate a view that I hold, based on my knowledge of you eminent people and that is this, that you would not have formed a view that members were behaving in this manner without making use of your own reliable sources and there is an illusion in your document to your own sources.  In other words you went to the community, you talked about your information and you were satisfied that there was merit in the allegations against the club, correct?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now unfortunately, and once again I restrict my cross-examination ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You have to move a little expeditiously.