Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-22

MR SINJATSI: It seems to me Sir, correct me if I am wrong, going by the report that has been distributed here where Mr Terreblanche was talking about more bombs are coming, if one looks at that report, it seems to me that even if one was to talk about the bombs in Lichtenburg and Leeudoringstad, these were directed at specific targets like an electrical pylon apparently and Leeudoring one, directed at the railway line.  Isn't it that you had a specific pattern of going about identifying your targets as the AWB?

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, what the planning was, I do not know.  I do not know if they had deliberate targets, but what I did know was that NP and ANC offices were bombed at that stage.

MR SINJATSI: Let me put it differently, up to the time that you moved over to Ventersdorp, the impression I have here, and please tell me if this is not also  your impression, is that you were targeting things like offices, power stations, railway lines, government things or political things if one may put it in those terms, is that impression correct?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR SINJATSI: And Sir, all the meetings that you attended, where Mr Terreblanche amongst others talked, did any of them say to you that there is now a change in the attitude of the choice of targets?

JAN B DE WET: No Mr Chairperson, it was never put to me in that way.

MR SINJATSI: In fact nobody ever said to you that now it is time that innocent civilians must be killed otherwise you would have long told us about it?  Did anybody say that to you?

JAN B DE WET: No Chairperson, nobody told me to go and kill innocent people.

MR SINJATSI: And Sir, as a trained soldier, I think it is pretty obvious to you that when you are involved in a war situation, you don't go about killing innocent civilians, am I correct?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, what I learnt from waging a war is that innocent people too die in a war situation - people who are not interested in politics.  It doesn't matter what country's war this is.
	Innocent people do get killed.  But nobody actually told me to go and kill innocent people, those were just the circumstances.

MR SINJATSI: Yes.  If innocent civilians get caught in the cross-fire, it seems to me that that is unfortunate, but they are not really the target, isn't that?

JAN B DE WET: No Mr Chairperson, they are not the target but they were there by coincidence, caught up in the cross-fire.

MR SINJATSI: Let's talk now about the Germiston bomb.  Who was the target?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, I do not know of any target, I was only told to go and plant the bomb there.

MR SINJATSI: By the way, why do you say you moved to Ventersdorp, I understand it was a call up, but what was your understanding, why did you have to move to Ventersdorp?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, the first time I went there was when I went to work there, I took a package from my job, otherwise I would have lost it because of Affirmative Action.

MR SINJATSI: No, I mean around the 20th or 21st of April?

JAN B DE WET: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe called me up with regards to what was discussed at the Trim Park on the previous occasion.

MR SINJATSI: You say that you did not know what was the purpose of being called up to Ventersdorp?

JAN B DE WET: At that stage, I did not know the purpose.  I only learnt that on the 21st/22nd, then I found out why people were specifically called up to Ventersdorp.

MR SINJATSI: Sir, now that we know that the Ystergarde seems to have been the elite group within the AWB, would it be fair to say that a member of the Ystergarde would then reasonably be expected to know what the AWB stands for and what is being planned, at least the Officers have to know what is being planned Sir?  Would it be fair?

JAN B DE WET: No Chairperson.

MR SINJATSI: Would it then be fair to say that the Officers who belonged to the elite, being the Ystergarde, would reasonably not be expected to know what is being planned?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, the Ystergarde was there for personal protection, they were not there to know what was being discussed between Mr Terreblanche and his Generals.

MR SINJATSI: In fact, if action was to be taken would it, I am talking about now not defensive action but to go on the attack, if action was to be taken, would it be the Ystergarde to do it or would it be the Wenkommando, or who would do it?

JAN B DE WET: I believe the Ystergarde would have received the instructions for attacking.

MR SINJATSI: Did the Ystergarde ever get such instructions?

JAN B DE WET: Not that I know of Chairperson.

MR SINJATSI: And Sir, talking about you driving your motor vehicle to Germiston, why did you make it a condition that if your car is to be made available, the condition would be that you must be the driver?

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, a vehicle when you work, a vehicle is the only way of transport from and to work and it is a very important thing.  You cannot, in the Western Transvaal you cannot walk.  The towns are far apart.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr (indistinct) is has been said that cars are the toys of men, and they protect it.

MR SINJATSI: But Sir, isn't it that you were prepared to lose all your possessions if need be, including your life for the struggle?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson, I was prepared to give my life, but my vehicle, I had my wife and children, and they needed a vehicle if they wanted to move from point A to point B.

MR SINJATSI: Okay, going back to the Germiston bomb.  Who gave you the instructions that you must go and place this bomb at Germiston?

JAN B DE WET: That was the morning  when I was at Koesterfontein, and Mr Barnard told us that the bomb was going to Germiston.

MR SINJATSI: Did the members of the Ystergarde wear uniform?

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, when we got together for the war, we didn't wear our uniforms at all.

MR SINJATSI: Let's talk about before the war, or before you move ...

JAN B DE WET: Before the war we did wear uniforms, yes.

MR SINJATSI: Did you ever see Mr Barnard wearing a uniform to show that he belongs to you, the Ystergarde?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, Mr Barnard's hair was long and because of that, he wasn't allowed to wear the Ystergarde uniform, but I did see him in the camouflage uniform of the Wenkommando.

MR SINJATSI: You saw him in uniform of the Wenkommando?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR SINJATSI: And being a member of the Ystergarde and having some basic understanding of the chain of command within the Ystergarde, isn't it that you expected that if instructions were to come to you about operations, they have to come within the line of command within your structure, the Ystergarde, is that correct?

JAN B DE WET: Please repeat the question?

MR SINJATSI: I am saying if instructions were to be given to you regarding operations that you were to go out on, you would expect that whoever gives you instructions, has to be somebody within the Ystergarde, not the Wenkommando, is that not so?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SINJATSI: So far as the Ystergarde is concerned, you cannot say what was Barnard in it, correct?

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, my view of Barnard - we concluded our course together in the Ystergarde, so he was a member of the Ystergarde, and if I remember he completed it successfully, so he must have been a Captain within the Ystergarde.

MR SINJATSI: Did he ever wear any badge to show his rank?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, in the Wenkommando he carried the rank of Colonel.

MR SINJATSI: No, not in the Wenkommando, in the Ystergarde?

JAN B DE WET: I already said in the Ystergarde Barnard did not wear the Ystergarde uniform because of his long hair.

MR SINJATSI: Am I then correct to say that you did not know what his rank would be within the Ystergarde?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, Chairperson, as far as I was concerned Barnard was a Captain within the Ystergarde.