Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I want to put it to you Mr Mkhumbuzi, that you arenot telling the truth, that you were aware, well before this attack took placewhat the target was, that you were aware that it was a church.

JUDGE WILSON: You are putting this to him, so I take it you have information to that effect?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I am going to suggest that ...

JUDGE WILSON: Suggesting,you are putting it to him that he knew, that is a definite statement isn't it?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Well, I will put that to him, that is the basis on which I amputting it to him. Is that correct, you deny that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Whatare you talking about?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am saying to you that I believeyou knew before the time what the target of the attack was, and that it wasa church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I know nothing about that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is your attitude to the fact that it was not only White people in the church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The only thing that I can say is that I sympathise withthose who were non-White in the church, I apologise to them, even to the Whites,but they could also understand how was the situation during that time and howquick things could happen, so we couldn't differentiate that these were Whiteand these were

<UNKNOWN>: oloureds.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why was it necessary to attacka church?

<UNKNOWN>: s I've said that I did not know that we weregoing to attack a church. I didn't know that the target was the church.

<UNKNOWN>: utI felt as I've said before, the Whites were also using churches to oppress the

<UNKNOWN>: lacks. They took our country using churches and

<UNKNOWN>: ibles as we are reading thehistory. We as the oppressed ones.

ADV DE JAGER: Do I understand you correct,even if you've known that it was a church, you would have attacked the peoplein the church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: If it was a churchfor

<UNKNOWN>: lack people and there were only

<UNKNOWN>: lack people, would you have attacked thechurch then?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, we couldn't have done that.

ADV DE JAGER: So you attacked the church and you would have attacked it even if you knew itwas a church and there were White people in the church?

<UNKNOWN>: an you please come again with the question.

ADV DE JAGER: You would haveattacked in any event, if you had known it is a church and if you knew beforehandthat there was White people in that church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, we wouldhave continued with the attack.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, now could you giveus the reason why you would have continued with the attack, knowing it is achurch and knowing there are White people, what was the motivation for yourattack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Will you please rephrase your question, I don'tunderstand clearly.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you want to attack the Whitepeople?

<UNKNOWN>: y doing so, attacking the Whites, we knew and weread from the books that they are the ones who took the land from the

<UNKNOWN>: fricans.That was the main reason for us to attack the Whites.

<UNKNOWN>: ny furtherquestions?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: May I just ask, do you ever go to church yourself,have you ever been to church yourself?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I do go to church.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE So you know that people go there to pray and to pray for peaceamongst other things?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I know that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Don't you think that you could have found a better place to attack?

<UNKNOWN>: s I've said before, I did not know that we were going to the church. Even anywherethe attack would have taken place, not just because it was a church, I meananywhere the attack was going to take place.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank youMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, following on the last aspectof my colleague's questioning to you, are your mother and father still alive?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: My mother is still alive.

<UNKNOWN>: nd is she a churchgoerto your knowledge?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd while you werestill at school, I take it you and your family would go to church on Sundays?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: To what denomination do you belong?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The

<UNKNOWN>: frican Gospel

<UNKNOWN>: hurch.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So you must be perfectlyaware that a church is a place of sanctuary?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, the onesI attended I knew that they were sanctuary but there were churches that wereused to do the wrong things as I've said before. I've said most of the Whitechurches were used to oppress the

<UNKNOWN>: lacks. So the one I attended I knew thatpeople were praying for peace that was not around. Even under the circumstancesthat they were living, they were praying for peace. So some other churches Iknew that they were just being used by our enemies to oppress the

<UNKNOWN>: lack people.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You have told us that you used to read the newspapers and listento the radio and presumably watch television, is that correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you must have been aware of the fact that many, manyleaders of the so-called White churches were fighting apartheid?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Like whom maybe?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well, like

<UNKNOWN>: eyers Naude of the Dutch Reformed

<UNKNOWN>: hurch. Like

<UNKNOWN>: rchbishop Tutu of the

<UNKNOWN>: nglican

<UNKNOWN>: hurch.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I cantell something about

<UNKNOWN>: ishop Desmond Tutu, about others I know nothing.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know that he was one of the church leaders who were opposedto apartheid, the answer is yes or the answer is no?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You weren't aware of that fact?

<UNKNOWN>: re you telling the truth, are youtelling the truth here Mr Mkhumbuzi?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, it is true, Iknow nothing about that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You know nothing about

<UNKNOWN>: ishop Tutu'sactivities?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I do know about

<UNKNOWN>: ishop Desmond Tutu.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know, having regard for the fact that you were a reader and a listenerto the radio and a watcher of television, were you or were you not aware, thisis the last time that I will ask this question about

<UNKNOWN>: ishop Tutu, that he wasopposed to apartheid?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I do know that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes. Have you heard of Dr

<UNKNOWN>: eyers Naude?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You haven't read very much then have you, in the last few years?

CHAIRPERSON: He is still young.

<UNKNOWN>: nyway, you told us that the church is aplace of sanctuary, you agree with that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, those I usedto attend.

<UNKNOWN>: ll churches are places of sanctuary, aren't theyand synagogues and mosques?

<UNKNOWN>: re they not?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Now I do agreewith that, because I can see the role of churches after what happened in thischurch and I can see that other Priests, when I am watching TV, they do notlike violence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, I think when it was put to the applicantthat many White leaders were opposing apartheid, in all fairness to him, itshould have likewise been indicated to him that many White church leaders infact justified apartheid and sought even to justify it on religious grounds.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes, that is perfectly true, in fairness to him. I thought that wouldbe dealt with in re-examination.

<UNKNOWN>: ut I take your point, Judge. Yes, you've heardwhat Judge Ngoepe has said, it is perfectly true that there were some churchesin this country who did support apartheid, that is so.