Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

MR DEHAL: In Exhibit A on paragraph 9 you say that when the deceased had you pinned to the ground you thought about - that you say in paragraph 9 and 10, you thought about these other people he had killed and you knew that you were going to die.  Now having regard to that I ask you this, if you had not dispossessed the deceased of his knife and stabbed him, what do you think would have happened to you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I realised that I was standing a good opportunity of being killed if I did not dispossess him.  I thought that it would be best if I stab him so that he does not even follow me, or he's not able to follow me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't the deceased carry a gun?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: He had a home-made firearm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And did he have this in his hands whilst chasing you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, he did have the firearm, but he had already fired it, because it could carry only one bullet.

MR DEHAL: And you had mentioned earlier that of the group that were chasing you they had firearms, apart from the deceased having a firearm, that they had shot at you but missed you, correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they had assegais, did the deceased have one?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, he did not have an assegai but knife and a home-made firearm.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, will you bear with me, Mr Chairperson, I'll just check if there's anything else.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe while you're checking Mr Panday(sic), may I ask a few questions to the applicant.
	Mr Ngubane, after this event where the deceased was killed, did the attacks on the ANC decrease or increase?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: What I remember is that the attacks decreased because after that and up to the point when I was convicted, there was no longer fighting or any conflict, the war stopped then.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you say your ANC branch or the ANC at your local area benefitted politically out of your actions by killing the deceased?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Personally I feel that yes, they did benefit because it brought an end to the war.  Perhaps he was the one strong person within the IFP who headed attacks.

MR SIBANYONI: Were your actions only based on self-defence or had it anything to do with politics were your actions motivated in any way by politics?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: When the deceased was attacked it was because he was an IFP member, but I had not intended to attack or injure him and at that point I attacked him because he had attacked me first and had I not stabbed him, I feared that he would have stabbed me or would have killed me.  And I did not even realise that he was dead at the time, I only learnt of it later.  But I had not intended to kill him.
	But I am here because I was an ANC member who injured or attacked the deceased, but it was not my intention to kill him but he did die as a result of my attack.  I had not intended to kill him, I just wanted to subdue him so that he would not be in a position to attack me further.

MR SIBANYONI: Was this personal or was it political - was it for your own personal benefit, or was it for a political objective?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I would say at that point it was personal because he had attacked me at home, no-one had been aware that he was going to do this.  When I reported the incident to the ANC, they did support me that I should have attacked him and defended myself.  But I am very sorry about his death because we grew up together, the only problem came about when political violence started.

MR SIBANYONI: You said also your brother was attacked, was your brother a member of any political organisation?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, he was an ANC supporter.

MR SIBANYONI: When he was attacked, did you report this to the ANC?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Did the ANC take any steps?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: The ANC reported the matter to the police, but they did not take any other action.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Panday.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.
	Mr Ngubane, the deceased attacked you surely because you were an ANC man and he was IFP and in the ongoing conflict between the IFP and the ANC ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, you can't put that leading question in re-examination and there was no evidence that the deceased attacked them because they were ANC.  Seven man came to his house.

MR DEHAL: Sir, I accept it's leading, I'm sorry about that, I will rephrase that but it emanates from Mr Sibanyoni's question, re-examination at that level.
	Mr Ngubane ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: May I just apologise, I referred to you as Mr Panday instead of Mr Dehal.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, I accept that.
	Mr Ngubane, you've talked about the deceased having attacked many ANC people and that the deceased at the time he so attacked these ANC people, was clearly an IFP person, you recall that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Do you recall in Alzina's statement which we dealt with, Mr Panday dealt with earlier and which I read to you when I consulted with you, she said you turned around and you together with the group that you were in, called the deceased an IFP man, provoking him about his being an IFP.  Remember Alzina's statement to that effect?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, I only heard of it today.

MR DEHAL: You see in paragraph 3 on page 10, this is Alzina Luthuli's statement, she says
"As they passed us ..."
... meaning you and the group that you were in, as your group passed the deceased and Alzina.
"... the deceased turned around.  I then noticed them call the deceased an Inkatha person."
Do you see that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I do not know about that.

MR DEHAL: Okay, but then Alzina goes on to say that these three black males are ANC members from Umkababa reserve, do you see that?

CHAIRPERSON: You keep saying "do you see", but I understand your client had told us that he is not literate in English, so I don't see how you can ...

MR DEHAL: I apologise.  The question should rather be "do you remember that, do you note that".
	You said, sorry you don't know that.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You dispute Alzina's version I take it, that you turned around and called the deceased an IFP.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do dispute it.

MR DEHAL: May I ask you, if you were an IFP member, do you think the deceased would have attacked you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, he would have not attacked us because we would be members of the same organisation.

MR DEHAL: And if the deceased had not changed to becoming an IFP member and remained an ANC member, do you think the deceased would have attacked you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I do not think so because we never had any personal problems with him, we even used to play soccer with him before.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, that is all, thank you.  I have no further witnesses for the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you - there's one thing I'd like to ask him and I'm afraid I can recollect the word, but in one of the other applications that I have read in the last few days there is I gather, a rude word or expression used for IFP member, do you know of such a word?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, I do not.

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes your ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, Chairperson, maybe let me ask him specifically the word.
	They call it "Klova".  Does that word sometimes get used in referring to IFP members?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I will sometimes hear other comrades use that word, but on the specific date when the incident happened, I did not hear anybody uttering that word because when they approached we did not see them, we just saw them when they were close and they were on their way to attacking us.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, that is all, Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL