Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Nothing of that sort happened in my presence.  Some of the things that I'm listening to here shock me really.  I'm one of those people who were strict.  Now and then we used to sign confirming that there'll be no assaults.  The apartheid didn't want us to assault people, those who assaulted people did that out of their own will.  I do not remember harassing any person.  I even walk freely in townships because I know I did not assault a person.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Visser, does that conclude your second ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: My second attempt, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, do you have any questions?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.
	Mr Mbanjani, what did your duties entail?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Do you want to know about my duties here in Bloemfontein or where should I start?

ADV MEMANI: You told us that you were doing administrative work, was this at Fountains?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, at Fountain.  My work at Fountain was to listen to the news and the telephones and to write letters.

ADV MEMANI: Letters to whom?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: If we suspected that the letter had something, we would open and read through the letter as to see whether there isn't anything against the government in that letter.

ADV MEMANI: So you were intercepting mail?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you were listening to the news over the radio?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: ...[no English translation]

ADV MEMANI: And you were listening - your particular interest in that news was news with a political content.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, political news.

ADV MEMANI: And I assume that you then collate the relevant items and pass them on to the people who would have use for whatever you had gathered?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, we forwarded the news to a different section.

ADV MEMANI: You were not responsible for leave forms?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Not at all.

ADV MEMANI: You were not responsible for keeping an inventory of furniture in the police station?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Not at all.

ADV MEMANI: And you were performing duties that were non-administrative in fact?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Most of the time I was doing administrative work, I worked 8 to 4 o'clock.

ADV MEMANI: So then the first ...[indistinct] that emerges is that you were not doing administrative work.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: We did administrative work because we had a register book to sign when we start working and sign out at the end of the day.

ADV MEMANI: And you worked at Bloemfontein from 1986 until 1992, is that correct?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you did not - you say that you did not become aware of Ngo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I just saw Ngo, I could not even speak to him because we have different departments.  You are only concerned with your work.  Even at tea time we did not even manage to have tea time, we had tea where we worked.  I never talked to him and  I never got a chance to know him.  When I say: "to know him", I'm not referring to physical knowledge.

ADV MEMANI: No, you knew that there was a person in the office who's Nelson Ngo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, I knew that such a person existed, he was Nelson Ngo.  I explained that there were times in our offices where a person like Ngo came to give information.  People would be very protective, they would not want us to talk to him so we never had a chance to talk to him because he would be protected.

ADV MEMANI: Now we heard that before 1985, Ngo was a student and he was Erasmus's informer.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would not say he was Erasmus's informer,  Erasmus had people who were working with him.  I did not know his real handler and I did not bother to know that because I was concentrating on my work.

ADV MEMANI: But surely if you told us that people used to be protective about their informers and they did not want other people to speak to him, when you saw him at Fountain, if you saw him as an informer, you would have seen him in the company of Erasmus?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Can you repeat your question?

ADV MEMANI: If people didn't want their informers to mingle with others and you say you saw Ngo at Fountain when he was an informer, then you would have him in the company of Erasmus because he was Erasmus's informer.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I told you that it was not possible to know exactly who his informer was but I knew that he was informer.  If he was in the company of our black men, not Erasmus, I would know that he's an informer.  I really agreed that he was an informer when I saw him mixing with them.

ADV MEMANI: You know I don't want to waste time but I don't know why I want to follow this.  You said to us earlier on that people don't want informers - their informers, to mingle with others, they're protective about their informers.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: At that stage you were explaining the reason why you would not have had any contact with Ngo, isn't it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now I'm saying to you then, you'd been told that Ngo was Erasmus's informer and if people were protective and didn't want their informers to mingle with others, you would not see him with black policemen, you'd see him with Erasmus.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely, if he comes to the building he catches the lift to the fifth floor and he goes to Erasmus's office, that doesn't mean you see him with Erasmus.  You just see him getting out of the lift or something, you don't know where's he's going up the passage.

ADV MEMANI: The unfortunate ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that Erasmus went and fetched him every time and took him up in the lift with him and led him to his office?

ADV MEMANI: The evidence has been that he used to see him in the office but he would not speak to him because people were protective about their informers.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say he saw him in Erasmus's office, he said he saw him in Fountain, the offices at Fountain Street as I understood his evidence.
	Isn't that what you said, that you saw him in the building?  You didn't know what office he went into.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not know the office he was going to.

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon Mr Chair.
	Now Mr Mbanjani, informers were not supposed to be known to all and sundry at the police station isn't it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so, it only depended on the handler.  I used to walk freely with my informers and you'd never know what was happening, it only depended really on the handler.  There are other informers, you meet him in the street or her in the street and then you talk to that informer.  It depended on the handler, how to work with the informer.

ADV MEMANI: Informers were not full-time employees, isn't it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Repeat your question please.

ADV MEMANI: Informers are not full-time employees?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: You're asking me a difficult question.  The informers were classified.  There were full-time informers, there were part-time informers.  It's a very long story but in short, there are classifications of informers but most of them were not full-time informers.

ADV MEMANI: But informers did not work permanently in the office.  They did not stay permanently in the office, they came only to give reports and left.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo was a permanent feature in the office, he was always in the office?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would not say he was at all times at the office because when we reported work at half past seven, we would go back to our offices and they are out to go and work in the fields.

ADV MEMANI: But informers were not supposed to be known to members of the community, isn't it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is so.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo participated in the arrest of youths in Botshabelo?