Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are we ready to proceed.

MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This is a sitting of the Amnesty comprising of myself as Chairman, Judge Wilson on my right and Ms Khampepe.

MR BRINK: You are not coming through on the microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Hello.

MR BRINK: That is much better.

CHAIRPERSON: This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee comprising of myself, Judge Wilson on my right and Ms Khampepe on my left and we are ready to commence proceedings this morning in connection with the applications of Mr Maxam, Mr Ndinisa and Mr Tisana.  Please come forward and place themselves on record.

MR BRINK: I appear as evidence leader for the Committee.

ADV LOURENS: I appear for the applicants, Advocate ...

JUDGE WILSON: Could you please give your names.

MR BRINK: Brink.

ADV LOURENS: John Lourens for the applicants.

MR SWART: Swart for the victims your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are the victims represented?

JUDGE WILSON: Swart is representing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swart.

MR ROTHFUCHS: Rothfuchs assisting Mr Lourens.

JUDGE WILSON: Pardon, I cannot hear you.

MR ROTHFUCHS: Sorry, Rothfuchs assisting Mr Lourens.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, he is assisting Lourens.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What about the victims?  But I thought he is assisting Lourens.  Yes, Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Mr Chair, strictly speaking, Mr Swart appears not for the victim, but for the next of kin.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Swart appearing for the next of kin.

MR SWART: That is correct Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you.  Very well.  Mr Lourens, you may proceed.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, my understanding is that the applicants will be sworn in before I proceed.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I thought maybe you wanted to make a preliminary statement before you call the witnesses.

JUDGE WILSON: The applicant is sworn in when he elects to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: As witnesses in normal proceedings.  All three are not sworn in now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, I do not wish to make any preliminary address. I call the first applicant then, Mr Philemon Maxam.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maxam.  Are we pronouncing your name correctly?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mr Maxam?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, you are pronouncing it correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Swear him in Sisi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Maxam, are you going to be sworn in?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may stand up.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: (Duly sworn in, states).

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may sit down, you have been properly sworn in.
EXAMINATION BY ADVOCATE LOURENS

ADV LOURENS: Mr Maxam, could you please for the record, state your age.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: 36 Years of age.

ADV LOURENS: Where were you born?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the applicant.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I was born in Paarl.

ADV LOURENS: I understand that you have lived your whole life in Paarl.  Is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is so.

ADV LOURENS: Did you attend school?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: (Not interpreted).

ADV LOURENS: Till what standard did you attend school?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Up to standard eight.

ADV LOURENS: Now, is it correct that you lived in a township near Paarl called Mbekweni?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I grew up in Mbekweni.

ADV LOURENS: Is it correct that at present you are serving a 25 year term of imprisonment at Allandale Prison?  I do not think he is hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think he can hear.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.

ADV LOURENS: And is it correct that your term of imprisonment that you are serving now arises out of an incident that occurred on 15 April 1986?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.

ADV LOURENS: We shall return to you, that incident shortly. I would like you to describe to the Committee what it was like living in Mbekweni prior to 1986.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: There was war there.

ADV LOURENS: Could you explain to the Committee what you mean when you say there was war there.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Between 1985 and 1987 there was a group of people, the AZAPO, at Mbekweni.  I was a member of UDF.  What would happen is that within the AZAPO there would also be police.  Therefore there was no order at Mbekweni, because we would fight a lot with the police, AZAPO fighting against the police.

JUDGE WILSON: AZAPO fighting against the police.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: AZAPO fighting against the police, is that what you said?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think that is, the translation is incorrect.

ADV LOURENS: Is incorrect.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: That is not what I mean.  What happened is that the AZAPO would sometimes work together with the police to fight the UDF.

ADV LOURENS: When did, were you involved in these fights between the UDF, on the one side, and AZAPO and the police on the other?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I was involved.

ADV LOURENS: Could you explain to the Committee what your involvement was?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: My involvement with the UDF fighting the AZAPO, I was also a member of PAYCO.  This organisation was quite big.  This organisation had the same visions as the ANC.  As there was conflict between us and the AZAPO what eventually happened is that people would get injured and some even would lose their lives.  Most of the people who died were members of PAYCO.  Therefore, that was the kind of battle that we were in.  The police, it was evident that the police were involved as well.

ADV LOURENS: Before we proceed with, more specifically with the aims of PAYCO could you explain or tell the Committee when you first became politically involved?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: From 1985.  If I am to be brief, I was one of the people who found Imbako and then later became a member of PAYCO.  I was always around within that community.  I would be a marshall even in the meetings.  Therefore, I would be directly involved sometimes in the violence that would occur at Mbekweni.  Sometimes I would lose my job ...

ADV LOURENS: Could you just stop there for a moment?  Did you, in fact, lose your job as a result of your political involvement?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not hear the question.  My mike is problematic, I am struggling.  I cannot hear the interpreter well.

CHAIRPERSON: Can that not be put right without any further delay please.  Is there nobody here that can put this right?  Mr Brink would you just make it.

MR BRINK: It looks as if something is being done in the.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Interpreting, I do not hear the interpreting.  It is, it scratches as if.  How about this one?

ADV LOURENS: My question was did you, in fact, lose your job as a result of your political involvement?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is so Sir.

ADV LOURENS: And where was that?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I was working at the Stellenbosch Farmers Winery in Paarl.

ADV LOURENS: Were any of your family members involved in the political aims of the UDF and its related organisations?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, my entire family was involved.

ADV LOURENS: And is it correct that your brother had been detained at that stage?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, my father too.

ADV LOURENS: Now, could you explain to the Committee what the aims of PAYCO were?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry, Mr Lourens, what stage are you referring us to?  I mean, you are ...

ADV LOURENS: The ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...  are you talking ...

ADV LOURENS: I am referring to ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... of 1985?

ADV LOURENS: In the eighties.  In 19 ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: In particular 1985?

ADV LOURENS: In particular 1985.  Could you explain to the Committee what the aims of PAYCO were?