Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

MR MAOLOSI: We went to prison still not in good terms.  We spent about a year and eight months but changes took place in our country.  We realised that people were reconciling, we are not enemies anymore.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV TSHONGWENI

JUDGE WILSON: Any questions?

MS THABETHA: Yes, Mr Chair.  Mr Maolosi, was Mr Plaatjies your friend?

MR MAOLOSI: I would say he was my friend because I knew him very well, he was playing for a soccer team, and I was playing for another, and he was not a friend I would be seen with every time, but I would regard him as my friend, because we did not have any problems.

MS THABETHA: Did you have any knowledge about his involvement in a gang, Noxie gang?

MR MAOLOSI: No, I bear no knowledge of him being a gang member or having a relation with a gang.

MS THABETHA: You say when you came back you shot the deceased thinking it was Mkonsi Thoabala you were shooting.  Why did you think it was Mkonsi you were shooting?

MR MAOLOSI: The people who were standing around the deceased were members of his family, and they are Xhosas and the Xhosas had their section called Ghana.  Now the people who were standing around the deceased were the Xhosas and Thoabala also stayed in that section.  Now what came to my mind, was the person lying here is Mkonsi, maybe they are trying to help him, and the person - there was a person among the group when I entered the gate who shouted his name.  I thought the person lying on the ground was him.

JUDGE WILSON: Now in your explanation there you said the people standing around the deceased were members of his family.  Whose family do you mean?  Member of Plaatjies' family or member of Mkonsi's family?

MR MAOLOSI: I am referring to the people of the Plaatjies, but I - at that stage I didn't realise that they were the Plaatjies. I realised afterwards.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they come from the same area as Mkonsi?  Were they Xhosas?

MR MAOLOSI: Yes, they were all staying in Ghana, their section was called Ghana.

MS THABETHA: You say there were girls who also got involved into the fight.  Can you still remember who those girls were?

MR MAOLOSI: Yes.  The other one is Songo Khale and the other one is Mutle.  It is Gany Phule and Songo Khale.

JUDGE WILSON: You said, I think, that they gave evidence at the trial?

MR MAOLOSI: Yes.

MS THABETHA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHA

JUDGE WILSON: You say you knew Thoabala as being very violent and in the forefront of those terrorising the people in the community.  Is that so?

MR MAOLOSI: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he part of a group of people who were terrorising the community?  Was it the comrades who were terrorising the community or somebody else?

MR MAOLOSI: He was among a group of the comrades terrorising the people.  Actually they were not terrorising the community at large, they were terrorising the government officials. If you were working for government around Thamahole, to them it didn't matter. If you were working for the government they regarded you as an enemy.

JUDGE WILSON: And it seems clear from your evidence that when Cholota met you in the Tavern he originally wanted to search you.  Would that be to see if you had a gun on you?

MR MAOLOSI: I think it was his intention, because he requested to search me and I refused.

ADV DE JAGER: What did you want to achieve by shooting Thoabala?

MR MAOLOSI: I would say I was shooting a member of the MK after attacking me, and I wanted to stop them from their tactics of turning people into enemies when they don't support their ideas. I wanted to stop them from attacking the people.

JUDGE WILSON: Does that really mean you wanted to stop them enforcing their will on the community?

MR MAOLOSI: Not necessarily the community, as I am referring to those who do not support them, especially those who were working for the government. I wanted to stop them conducting such actions, attacking them randomly without having done nothing wrong to them.

JUDGE WILSON: Perhaps you can help us - I think you have been asked ...

ADV DE JAGER: Was the deceased, Mr Plaatjies, convicted at one stage for killing another one, another person?

MR MAOLOSI: I don't bear knowledge to that, because most of the time I was not around Tamahole. I would come home when I was off duty. I knew Mr Plaatjies, but I was not that close enough to know whether he was arrested, convicted or not.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, I didn't listen to the interpretation, but in your language you said you did not have full knowledge.  I don't know if that is translated that way. What do you mean you didn't have full knowledge about that?

MR MAOLOSI: Let me not say I didn't have full knowledge. I didn't have knowledge at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't even come across such a rumour?

MR MAOLOSI: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Had you heard of someone Phapi Joseph Qwaka?

MR MAOLOSI: Yes, I knew him.

JUDGE WILSON: What happened to him?

MR MAOLOSI: He died in Tamahole, but who killed him I do not know, but there was a rumour that he was killed by members of a gang.  Those were just rumours. I knew him as a teacher at the high school.  This incident took place while I was at work and I didn't get the full details of it.

JUDGE WILSON: What did Mr Plaatjies do?

MR MAOLOSI: He was working outside Parys, I think at the mines.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Have you heard of a Noxie gang?

MR MAOLOSI: I knew that kind of a gang.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which gang, according to the rumour, killed Mr Noxie, or a member of which gang killed Mr Noxie?  A member of - according to the rumours, Mr Qwaka was killed by a member of which gang?

MR MAOLOSI: I don't have - I am not sure of this thing, but I heard it that he was killed by members of a gang.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which gang, according to you?

MR MAOLOSI: Noxies gangster.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV TSHONGWENI

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.     We will take the adjournment now, we will adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS