Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw four casspirs, but I cannot be certain of the number of the Police Officers.  I only knew the people who were in my casspir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was Mr Peens in or outside one of the casspirs when you saw him, when you met him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was standing outside the casspir.  The casspirs were stationary and they were standing outside.  I could see because there were lights in the vicinity.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was he the only Official, Police Official standing outside the casspir or were there people joining him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw Peens and others like Rooikop.

MR DU PLESSIS: Anybody else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there were, but I do not know their names.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you see a person by the name of Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see him.

MR DU PLESSIS: So now you remember that Chaka was present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he was present when people were attacked and killed in Boipatong.

MR DU PLESSIS: When you arrived in the veld in the casspirs, did Mr Peens say anything to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.

MR DU PLESSIS: Why did you, what happened then when you met and everybody got together, what happened then, what happened next?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, Gatchene said we should get onto the casspirs and I climbed onto the one that was driven by somebody else in which Peens was also a passenger.  Other people walked on foot.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you get into the casspir before Mr Peens or after him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall sir, but we were in the same casspir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you describe to us, for how long were you in the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was this the first time you had been in a casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was with other residents of kwaMadala hostel, it was not just me who went into the casspir.

MR LAX: The question was and just listen to the questions please, was this the first time you were in a casspir, yes or no?  Was this the first time you had been in a casspir, yes or no, just answer the question.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was the first time.

MR LAX: Carry on.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was not the first time, I first rode in a casspir when I was being investigated for some other crimes, and then I rode in a casspir again when we went to Boipatong.

MR LAX: You have given two totally different answers here, your first answer was yes, this is the first time you had been in a casspir, now you are saying no, this is not the first time you had been in a casspir, you were in a casspir before when you were being investigated for some other crimes.  Please explain.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I first rode in a casspir when I was investigated for those other offences and then the second time I went into a casspir, was when I rode to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis we know that he had been in a casspir before, let's move on.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, for how far were you in the casspir, can you remember how far the casspir drove before you got out?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As we entered the township, we got off on the first street and took cover and other casspirs went into other streets.  We took cover on the first street and went into the first house.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you give me an estimate if it was 100 metres, one kilometre, how far did you drive in the casspir?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, can you recall how far had you been in the casspir before you got out of the casspir?  If you can remember say so, if you can't, tell us.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  Was there any specific reason why you had to board the casspir, did anybody tell you why you had to board the casspir?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, the evidence from this witness as I recall it, is to the effect that it is Gatchene who issued instructions that they should get into the casspirs.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to know if there was any reason why they had to get into the casspir.

CHAIRPERSON: We know from this witness that Gatchene was in charge of the group, they listened to him, he said they must get into the casspir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Nosenga, when you got off the casspir, did you see Mr Peens, what he did then?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mr Peens did not go into the houses.  What they did was to shoot at people in the street, we are the only people who went into the houses.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you keep constant eye contact with Mr Peens whilst you were on the ground?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he did not get into people's premises or into the houses.  He was just, he just remained on the street.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know if he wore any protective clothing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I just saw him in his private clothes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember if he was camouflaged or if his face was camouflaged?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they wee camouflaged.  They had painted some substance on their faces and they were wearing balaclavas as well.

MR DU PLESSIS: Then sir, how did you know that it was Mr Peens that was on the ground, from the casspir?  Could you distinguish between the Police Officers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did see him.

MR DU PLESSIS: How did you know it was Mr Peens, was there any distinguishable marks that you can know it was Mr Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I could see him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Please explain how you could distinguish Mr Peens from the other Police Officials.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was wearing a white shirt.

MR DU PLESSIS: What else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him wearing a white shirt and a pair of jeans.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was he the only person wearing a white shirt and jeans?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, other people were wearing pants, slacks and some were wearing jackets.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nosenga, I refer you to page 21 of your statement, paragraph 20 and I will read it out to you
"... Peens also shot people, he shot from the casspir.  I do not know what kind of weapon he used, but I do not think he used his Police firearm."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, the casspir was driving very slowly and he was able to get of the casspir and shoot at people in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: The casspir was moving slowly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was moving slowly.

CHAIRPERSON: So Peens would alight from the casspir, shoot at people, go back to the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I am saying.  After we had left the casspir, they remained in the casspir, but they would get off and shoot at people in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Du Plessis wants to clarify from you is the statement that Peens shot from the casspir.  Do you understand what that means?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that statement correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it is not true.  The truth is that he would get off the casspir and shoot at people in the street.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you see if Chaka was around?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see him.

MR DU PLESSIS: What did he do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was also shooting at people.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did he also get off the casspir or was he on the casspir when he fired shots?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The Police would get off the casspir, I did not see them shooting from the casspir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you see Mr Chaka get off the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated before that Chaka also fired at people, you questioned me on Peens and I explained that he would get off the casspir, shoot at people and then climb on the casspir again.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nosenga, did you see what kind of firearm Mr Peens used?