Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

MR MALAN: Now Mr Steyn, you have told us that it was in your mind that her death was a possibility before this operation was executed, when you gave permission for this operation to be executed?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was the possibility or probability ever discussed that the death would most probably be a consequence before this operation was executed?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I think that was the idea.

MR MALAN: You are saying that you believe that that was the idea, that you think it was discussed as such and I would like you to go back please, because you have said that the actual discussion took place at the safe house in Pietermaritzburg, the final test.
	You said that you also made yourself aware of it then and in your application you create the impression that it occurred there, but Mr Botha has indicated to us that the test had already been applied previously.  If she had not cooperated, the other questions would never have been asked, the replacement and so forth.	
	She would either cooperate or she would die.  That was the case?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it your clear comprehension when you went in to this operation?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You knew that you were going to kill her and that there would be a remote chance that she would not die?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us why you went along so easily with that if that was the first time.  Wasn't it a moral issue with you and that is exactly the thing that I am driving at?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Chairperson, the information was there.  The information was already known to us with regard to what she was responsible for.
	A lot of acts of terrorism had been committed by her unit, by her people who were controlled by her.  I believed that those actions or that action would have been the correct action to neutralise her activities.

MR MALAN: Yes, I hear you Mr Steyn, but just try and put yourself back as we have heard the evidence here with specific reference to you.
	You are acting as the Head of the Branch, you are combatting and fighting terrorism.  You are experiencing this as a revolution, it is something terrible, but you operated within the framework of the law.  You did not go beyond your capacity, specifically with regard to the death of other people.
	Then a suggestion comes to you and it is said we are going to kill this girl.   Wouldn't that have been something that you would have remembered intensely?  Isn't that an absolute jump or a change in style for you, how did this happen?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I would just like to say that before I had come to Durban, I had already been involved in incidents in the Western Transvaal for which I am applying for amnesty and in those cases - and I am saying this so that I can indicate to you that this is not the first incident.
	Although I was not physically involved with those deeds, I was instrumental.  Me and or my people were instrumental in conveying information so as to eliminate people so that targets could be attacked.

MR MALAN: That actually makes the situation very difficult, working piece by piece with amnesty applications.  I don't think we should take it much further at this stage, we can let it stand over until later.
	But these aspects are going to impact on one another, but we can discuss that later.  As I have read your application, there isn't a comparable incident in the Western Transvaal which can be identified with your current application, however, we can take this further at a later stage.

ADV PRIOR: Gen Steyn, are you able just to recall at what time of the day Ms Ndwandwe came through the border fence with Taylor and Botha?  Are you able to just assist us?

MR VISSER: She came through only with Botha Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Well, I am referring to that event, when she was handed over to you?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Chairperson, if I remember correctly, it would have been approximately half past eight that evening.

ADV PRIOR: Did you have any information at what stage or what time of the day she was abducted at Manzini?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I accept that she was abducted during the preceding hour or two.

ADV PRIOR: General, the Allan Taylor unit as it was described by Mr Botha, were you familiar with that description?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I am aware of that unit.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to assist us, I omitted to ask Mr Botha about that, but are you able to assist us by possibly even looking at any of the documents before you, who was part or who formed part of that unit during 1987/1988 period?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Chairperson, are you referring to the Allan Taylor unit?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, I am not certain.  I don't have the finer details of the fellow unit members.

ADV PRIOR: Possibly that can be checked upon and one of the other applicants maybe later on in the week, can give us that information?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Who was your immediate superior at that time, the time of the Portia Ndwandwe event in 1988?  In other words who was your superior in Head Office, Pretoria?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It was the Security Chief of South Africa.

ADV PRIOR: Who was that?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I suspect that it could have been Gen Van der Merwe.

ADV PRIOR: I am just asking these questions, just for background.  Gen Engelbrecht, Krappies Engelbrecht, where did he, did he fit in at that stage or not?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, I think that he only arrived on the scene later.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I want to know with respect, why my learned friend is asking these questions?  This is not an inquisition, this is also not a fishing expedition.
	The names of people are bandied about as if there is some evidence somewhere, lurking in the wings, that would connect them with this, where there is absolutely nothing on the evidence before you, to link them.  Unless my learned friend has very good reason for asking these questions, Mr Chairman, I am going to object to this political assassination as it were, of people by bandying their names around just for the sake of ...

CHAIRPERSON: How is that political assassination to ask if he was a senior officer in the Security Branch, as I understand the question.  He was asking who was he superior?

MR VISSER: But he answered that question Mr Chairman, now the question is what about Krappies Engelbrecht.  Well, what about Krappies Engelbrecht, he's got nothing to do with nothing with respect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, Mr Prior apparently thinks that he was somewhere in the chain of command.

ADV PRIOR: I am happy with the answer that he wasn't, he came later, and that was the pitch at which I asked that question.  It has been answered.  I certainly never intended to politically assassinate Krappies Engelbrecht or any of Mr Visser's clients.
	Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, you say you think she was picked up an hour or two before she was taken through the border fence?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I assume so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what you would have expected?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because in this Exhibit H that we have been handed, and I don't know what reliance can be placed on it, there is reference to her being dropped at the rendezvous point in the morning.  You don't know anything about that?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the morning did they leave you?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I do not understand your question, from where is this?

CHAIRPERSON: I understood you were left at the border, at Onverwacht?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, I remained behind.