Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MR MOERANE: Well I really don't know because when he was being led reference was made to after there were problems with the first inquest.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well perhaps you can explain what you meant by that.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: All that I meant was that Brig Krappies Engelbrecht came to me and said "You were at the scene, what did you do there?".  Everybody knew that I carried the light, and people gave evidence that I had carried a light, but I didn't fire a shot at any stage.  And due to the fact that Mr de Kock and some of the witnesses gave evidence that I was at the scene, but also gave evidence that there was no light, Brig Krappies helped me to write the statement as such.  And that is what we did, that is all.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Let's leave that, let's go to the second incident and your evidence which in bundle 5, page 57.  Now you have pointed out certain matters which you say were not true, in particular those relating to the person who was in charge, Deetlefs being substituted for Col de Kock.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now I see in paragraph 3 you say
"Detective Constable Manzini would depart with a white Hi-Ace kombi to a certain place alongside the border between the RSA and Swaziland."
etceteras.  At this moment I'm concerned with the identity of the vehicle.  Was that the vehicle a white Hi-Ace kombi?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You see I'm a bit confused because other police officers describe that vehicle as an E20, a Nissan E20 and some of you like W/O Pienaar, say it was a Toyota Hi-Ace.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: As far as I can recall, it was a Toyota Hi-Ace.  It may have been an E20, but I didn't determine exactly what sort of vehicle it was.  The vehicle however appeared to me to be a Hi-Ace kombi, but I did not go out to determine exactly what sort of vehicle it was.

MR MOERANE: Ja, well Maj Deetlefs, in the same bundle, page 23, describes the vehicle as a Hi-Ace and so does Manzini and so does W/O Pienaar, but Mr Rorich and Vermeulen and Theron and Lombaard and Flores describe it as an E20.  So half of you describe it as a Toyota Hi-Ace, half of you describe it as an E20.  Is it possible that that is part of the fabrication in preparation for the second inquest, the identity was changed, or don't you know about that?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Not at all.  As I have explained to you already, according to what I knew it was a Hi-Ace.  For me a Hi-Ace and an E20 are one and the same thing basically.  I didn't specifically investigate what sort of vehicle it was, and if you had not pointed this out to me now I wouldn't have known about it.

MR MOERANE: In any event you did not attend the reconstruction where the kombi was involved, or did you?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: What is correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That I did not attend the reconstruction.

MR MOERANE: That's right.  Now let's come to your statements regarding the two incidents.  Your statement was deposed to in Pietermaritzburg on the 13th of December 1996 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: These are the statements contained - that were submitted with the application volume 1, page 65 and onwards?

MR MOERANE: Page 58 and onwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and particularly at 65, I think.

MR MOERANE: Yes, the body of the statements are found from page 65 onwards.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now these are typed on the, let's call it the Delmas computer, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I would assume that.

MR MOERANE: And these are the statements which have the same mistakes in them.  For instance, in paragraph 6, page 66, you mention three occupants of the vehicle.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: You always knew there were four.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: There were four, yes.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and you have always known that.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: Would I be correct in saying that this part of your statement was presented to you to sign and you signed without reading?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I did read it.  At that stage I was in Pietermaritzburg and the statement was faxed through to me on that day.  I read it quickly, signed it and sent it back because it had to be submitted.  It went through with the courier to Delmas.

MR MOERANE: And you noticed that they talked about three occupants?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I didn't even notice that.

MR MOERANE: And there's mention of a person called Rajbansi, I suppose a reference to Rajbansi.  Did you know anything about that?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Mr Pienaar told me this after the investigation into the death of these persons.  I was involved in the identification of these persons and it came to our attention that they were involved in acts of terrorism with Mr Rajbansi in Durban.

MR MOERANE: And this what you were told by W/O Pienaar?  You were not involved in that investigation, into Rajbansi or whatever.  It was something that you were told by W/O Pienaar, is that so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And it was really not necessary to include in this application for amnesty?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I found it necessary because I remembered that one of the terrorist had been involved in an act of terrorism in Natal and that is why I mentioned it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, Mr Hayes, that when you were consulted at some time prior to making this - sorry, were you consulted some time prior to making this statement?  By your legal representatives?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct

MR MOERANE: Sorry, just from your last answer, are you saying that you yourself raised the name Mr Rajbansi, during those consultations?  I mean, was it at your initiative that Mr Rajbansi's name appeared in your statement?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: During the consultation I went to Delmas before the other persons and I simply mentioned that I recall that one of those persons had been involved in an incident.  I can't recall whether I mentioned the name Rajbansi as such.

MR MOERANE: Coming to the second incident, you heard the evidence of Col de Kock, relating to this kombi, what happened to it when it came to a stop, that he ran ahead of you and he was one or two metres away from the person that alighted from the kombi.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Are you able to confirm that evidence or don't you know?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Until today I am convinced that shots were fired at us, and it is possible that there may be differences according to the observation of Mr de Kock and other members, but this is the experience which I had at the scene and I'm convinced to this very day that shots were fired at us.

MR MOERANE: Well you have run ahead of me, I hadn't come there.  I was still asking you about Col de Kock approaching this vehicle and him being the first there, whether or not you confirm that as a fact.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: It is correct, I misunderstood the question.

MR MOERANE: So he was in the best position to see what this person was doing or not doing?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You actually did not see this person firing, it's something that, as you've already conceded, you assumed or inferred?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is what I experienced.  As I have given evidence, that shots were fired at us.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, you didn't actually see that person who got out of the, or opened the left front door, whether he fired or not?  With your own eyes.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Then why did you put this in your statement, application for amnesty
"The left passenger door swung open and a person with an AK47 gun jumped out and opened fire."

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: As I've already given evidence, I am convinced to this very day that either he or one of the other persons fired shots at us.  I assumed that it was this person.