Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Matsepe, before you put questions tothis witness, I just want to find out something from this witness. There is one vital point on which initially I thought I understoodyou, but after a few questions by your attorney, it seems to methat I understand you far less than I thought I did, and thisis important.  You killed the deceased because you say you wereafraid the deceased might kill you.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And that is the only reason why you killedthe deceased.  Is that the only reason why you killed the deceased?

UNKNOWN: The other reason was that he was a personwhom (inaudible) because ...(intervention).

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just answer in Southern Sotho please.

UNKNOWN: That is not the only reason.  The other reasonwas that he'd been the person initially to protect the communityagainst.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you didn't say that when your attorneyasked you, or in fact when I intervened and asked you as to whyyou killed this person, you only said that you were afraid hewould kill you.

UNKNOWN: And then I further explained to say that thesituation at that present moment, that people were running upand down and you couldn't understand who would come to you tohurt you, so you were supposed to defend yourself.  That is oneof the reasons that we decided to shoot at him because we didn'tknow, except him, who else was on the scene to attack us.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You didn't kill him because of the factthat he was frustrating the political activities of the
ANC, did you?

UNKNOWN: I want to explain this clearly.  It is true,he was doing that, he was frustrating the activities, but nowI am being asked two different questions here.  The first oneis at the place, what made me kill him.  When you come back youask me didn't I kill him because he was hurting the community. That was the reason that made us form SDUs against him becausehe was harassing the community, but at the time when we were therehe was killed because of the situation that was reigning there. We had to defend ourselves to escape the area alive.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So you killed him for a reason other thanthe (inaudible) reason to defend yourself.

UNKNOWN: Both.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Then please say so.  Please say so wheneveryou are asked, don't give one.  Give both.  Sorry, what do youmean by both?

UNKNOWN: I killed him because my life was in dangerat that time and the second point, I wanted to defend the community.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand you, the reason that youwanted to defend the community was a basic reason that existedfor a long time.

UNKNOWN: Exactly.

JUDGE WILSON: But on this occasion the specific reasonwhy you killed him was you were afraid he might turn on you andkill you or that others might kill you.  You were acting in self-defence,of yourself and the other people who were there.

UNKNOWN: At that time.

JUDGE WILSON: At that time.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but generally it was to defend the community.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but at that time you killed him - youwere thinking only of defending yourself, is that so?  That'swhat you've said time and again.

UNKNOWN: And the others who were there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, I interrupted you, I apologise. You can go ahead.

UNKNOWN: One of the Committee members asked you aquestion regarding Mrs Pienaar.  Which part did she take?  Andwhen you answered you said she should take care that the membersof the 3 million gang do not go to gaol.  Do you still rememberthat?  Now the question is, how did she manage to do this, becausethe magistrate was the only person to take a decision.

UNKNOWN: That wasn't a hidden fact, because most ofthe time the courts around here, before the magistrate would sentencehe would ask the prosecutors, how do you view this case, and mostof the time it would appear that the decision that would be takenwould be taken because of the feelings of the prosecutor who wasthen Mrs Pienaar.

UNKNOWN: The cases for the 3 million gang people,were they handled by one magistrate or different magistrates?

UNKNOWN: They went to one magistrate most of the timeand the same prosecutor and it happened that if the magistratewas in the other case he would be called into this case of the3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: In other words, you are telling this Committeethat their cases were handled by one prosecutor, by one magistrate?

UNKNOWN: That is what I will briefly say.

UNKNOWN: : Do you know the name of the magistrate?

UNKNOWN: I remember the name Basson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many cases do you know of that were takenby this magistrate?

UNKNOWN: Many of them, countless, I can't even count.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the cases relating tothe gang?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I have no further questionsto this witness.  I wish to proceed with the next applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

UNKNOWN: I call the next applicant.

B J MPONDO: s s

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I want to explainthe case to you before I proceed with my questions, so that wecan understand where we stand now.
 You were accused of a murder of the deceased and you were foundguilty.

CHAIRPERSON: Which deceased.

UNKNOWN: The deceased was Tsietsie Leboko.  And youwere convicted of his murder.  Let me start by saying, do youagree that you perpetrated his murder?

B J MPONDO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you realise that now you are not beingtried;  you have just come here to tell us about what happened.

B J MPONDO: Yes, I realise that.

UNKNOWN: Do you understand that you have come to makea certain plea here to the Committee?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I do understand that.

UNKNOWN: I want us to understand each other on thisfact and I want to make sure whether you understand the reasonfor being here, so that when you answer the questions you wouldhave that in mind that you have come to us for amnesty here. Do you understand that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I do understand.

UNKNOWN: What plea are you coming to make here?

B J MPONDO: I have come to plea for amnesty.

UNKNOWN: You have then taken an oath that you willtell the truth.  Do you know that in order to be granted amnesty,you have to tell the truth?

B J MPONDO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The whole truth?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I do understand that.

UNKNOWN: You don't have to hide anything from us,do you understand that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I do understand.

UNKNOWN: If there is anything that you are hidingaway, and the Committee comes to know that, or is not satisfiedabout certain facts that you disclosed to them, and become sure(?)that you are a person who tells the truth and reveal everythingto them, this Committee has the right, according to the law, notto grant you any amnesty, do you understand that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I do understand that.

UNKNOWN: Therefore let me start by saying how oldare you?

B J MPONDO: I am 24 years old.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Matsepe.  What yourattorneys could also have chosen to tell you is that in orderto get your amnesty you must show to this Committee that the actwhich you have committed was committed with the purpose of pursuinga political objective.  There is no point in burdening this Committeewith details which do not in any way go towards showing us thatthe offence was committed with a political objective.  It willnot help us to sit here and listen to details which don't go tothat point.  I think your attorney should also have told you that.  But I am taking that liberty to inform you so.

UNKNOWN: You have already heard that if you agree thatyou performed this act and it doesn't have any political influence,your plea for amnesty will not be granted.  Therefore the Committeewants to know before we go further, how old are you?

B J MPONDO: I am 24 years old.

UNKNOWN: When this happened, how old were you?

B J MPONDO: I was 19 years old.

UNKNOWN: I would like you to raise your voice so thatI can hear you because I don't have the earphones with me.  MRMPONDO:    I was 19 years old.