Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR GOOSEN: Thank you.
On the 14th of March 1982 an explosive device was detonated at the offices of the ANC in London. This operation, carried out thousands of kilometres from the front line and in clear violation of international law, was authorised by a formation Commissioner of Police and member of the State Security Council, the former head of Security Police and subsequent Commissioner of Police and with the full knowledge and approval of the Minister. The operation itself involved a number of senior security policemen who received assistance from military personnel. The team was decorated for their role in the operation. 
Would you regard these actions as a bona fide misinterpretation of State policy directives?

MR DE KLERK: You see my problem Mr Chairman with this line of questioning is that I am asked to be speculative. I mean here is now an instance where I at least know one fact and that is that the Minister vehemently denies it, but the questioner is putting the question to me as if it is a fact that the Minister knew about it. So how trustworthy are these suppositions which are being put to me? I have a problem with that. We are talking about allegations made by people and I'm being asked to give an adjudication on untested allegations.

MR GOOSEN: On the 29th of July, Sir, 1986 Piet Ntuli, a member of the Kwandebele Legislative Assembly was killed when a bomb was detonated under his vehicle. He was killed on instructions received from a very senior level in the security management system. Discussions were held at the Gesaamenlike Inligting Sentrum comprising Divisional Commissioner of Police, a representative of the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: , head of the security branch, military and national intelligence. These emerged from amnesty applications. 
Are we to assume too that this constitutes an authorised, unlawful action for which responsibility must be shouldered by the handful of operatives who were involved?

<UNKNOWN>: or the specific deeds, if the allegations can be proved, yes those who did it must have accountability. Once again my overall acceptance of responsibility on behalf of the National Party and former governments with regard to an atmosphere conducive to such things which are wrong, which are detestable, which should never have happened also remains in place. I am not running away from that aspect which I dealt with in my opening remarks this morning.

MR GOOSEN: On the 27th of June 1986 ten youths had been lured into leaving the country to receive military training from MK were killed by members of the security police and special forces. Their bodies were placed in the vehicle they were using and it was blown up. 
The operation was approved by a General in the security police and instructions were issued via a Brigadier. The operation involved the divisional commander of security police Northern Transvaal, a colonel in special forces and the officer commanding special forces SAD

<UNKNOWN>: . 
The amnesty applications of these special forces' members indicate that the operation was sanctioned by the Chief of the South African Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce.
Into what category would you place this action?

MR DE KLERK: I think I have made my position abundantly clear that I'm once again not prepared to, on a speculative basis accept the facts as they have given. This incident, when I read about it in the newspaper, as many of the others that you have referred to, these are the incidents with regard to which I said this morning, the recent information of atrocities I find as shocking and as abhorrent as anybody else. It came to me as just a shocking a revelation as to anyone else. 
But I am deeply concerned, Mr Chairman, about the fact that in instances on an untested basis people's names are being drawn through the mud on the basis of allegations made that they knew and that this is made public before such persons have been given the opportunity to put their version of what happened to acknowledge, deny or explain. And this is an inherent problem. I am not holding it against you or I'm not being aggressive about it, but it's an inherent problem that we warned about right from the beginning.
And the line of questioning is unfortunately doing, achieving this now almost on a renewed basis. I can't just accept all the allegations made as if it is definitely the truth. Once again this is an atrocious which had happened and anybody who was involved in it was out of order, was not within the framework of policy or reasonable interpretation of policy.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just say that I mean in some instances your reservations would probably be regarded as holding water, but in others, I mean say the Khotso House thing, I mean here you have the people who were involved going up to the Cabinet Minister level, have applied for amnesty. Now we will have to say that they must be very odd people to apply for amnesty for something they have not done.

MR DE KLERK: No, no, but I'm not disputing that at all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, I'm just saying that there are instances where, and I would accept your very strong criticism of Advocate Goosen in those instances because I think in fact it doesn't detract from the point that is being sought, if he drops some of those where we have not yet got the evidence that in fact this can be confirmed that so and so has done it because in quite a few of the instances it is an application by a Commissioner of Police, or it's an application by a Brigadier, fairly high up in the hierarchy, and I would just say that we have to be very careful that we do not undermine our credibility, your credibility in denying the veracity that comes from, as it were, the horse's mouth. And the point that is actually being made here is, in giving some of these examples, is just to in part to say that it becomes difficult to see how one can sustain a position that it is a few bad eggs. Or it is an aberration. It is not in line with the main policy when some, well one, the thing extends over a very long period of time. 
Second, that those, even when they are few, are fairly high up people. I mean in terms, not of our investigations, but of those same people coming forward and saying we did so and so, we did so and so, and I would accept - I think that you don't in fact lose anything from the points that you are seeking to elicit if you exclude the name or the title of someone where we have not yet got that conclusive evidence.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman can I just comment. I am not in any way saying if a Brigadier or whomever, or a Minister or whomever says I apply for amnesty, I'm not questioning that, but where the person who applies says, but I had orders from somebody else and where that somebody else has not been given the opportunity to say is it true or not and where that somebody else has not applied for amnesty, I am saying that that person is entitled to a fair hearing and a fair opportunity before their names are dragged through the mud.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, let me just say one thing that the personalities involved and the roles played by them are drawn from amnesty applications which constitute confessions under oath.
I have one final example to put to you at this point before I move on to a further instance, a further set of questions, Mr de Klerk. The most senior members of the security branch in Natal, including the commander of the security branch, General Bertus Steyn and three colonels have applied for amnesty in respect of the murder of 12 ANC activists in KwaZulu Natal during 1988 and 1990. Seven of the victims were abducted, tortured and executed. Their bodies have been exhumed by the TRC's investigative unit. Three victims were placed on railway lines and blown up. 
In 1990 two Operation Vula operatives were executed and thrown in the Tugela River. Their bodies have not been recovered.
Would these have been the actions of mavericks?