Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: You see Dr Koekemoer, I think our problem is compounded every time you give a reply that is seeking to give us an answer to the questions that we'd like to know.  Let me just start with the compound that you're taking about.  Did I get you correctly when you said that as far as you were concerned, as scientist, this ecstasy was not an incapacitant which you would thought would be usable in a chemical or biological warfare?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, let's assume that the enemy were the Angolans.  It would not be the sort of thing that would be used with the Angolans in order to subdue them for purposes of conquest or defeat in an army situation.  Are you nodding - if you're saying yes ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ja and therefore it was not in terms of your own scientific belief, and agent that was going to, that could be used to further the military ends of the South African Defence Force?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well I saw it as military ends in the context that if people use CBWs against you, you could use some of it back.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we're talking about ecstasy.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes, I didn't see ecstasy as a potential incapacitant, no but on the other hand, I had superiors who had medical knowledge and probably more pharmacological knowledge than I had who had access to other groups with maybe more pharmacological knowledge than I had so I couldn't outright say but this is not a suitable compound ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: For using utilising in a chemical warfare incapacitant capacity.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes I accept that's what you say but you will remain convinced, as a scientist of note, that was not the sort of thing that that substance could be used for, in fact you felt that the compound would be used for illegal purposes or had the potential of being used as, of being abused as a substance?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And we are talking about 1992, is that so?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And talking about enemies, we had settled our ... (indistinct) externally, our differences with external enemies, there wasn't a war anymore on the borders.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That was one of the aspects that actually also I didn't like about making ecstasy because there was no threat anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no external threat, much less was there an internal threat.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact we were into our third year of negotiations, 1991, 1992.  Now what was this enemy that had to be subdued to this extent that so many kilograms of ecstasy were produced by you?  Now did it occur to you that whoever is in this programme is either pretending that there is an enemy there there has to be subdues, but otherwise there's another agenda or is using the facility that was there for their own purposes, for their enrichment, for their own agendas.  Did it ever occur to you?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That thought did occur to me, on the other side again at that stage, Delta G was in financial trouble and I also saw it maybe as a means of utilising army funds to keep Delta G going until the whole privatisation was finalised.

CHAIRPERSON: Exactly, so that to you it obviously did occur that this was not a programme in furtherance of chemical and biological warfare?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes it did occur to me.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact you felt that this was a programme that might very well be an illegal activity, did you not?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: The possibility did occur to me, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when the cavalier attitude that was adopted by Lothar Neethling, evidence itself, you obviously must have felt that this gives rise to more suspicion, in fact it should have - it didn't ally your suspicions at all?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, but I never doubted the integrity of these, of the people involved.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not asking that.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking about your own state of mind.  When you go to Neethling with all these questions, with all the you know indications that (a) there is no enemy on the border;  (b) there is no enemy inside;  (c) it doesn't appear that this is in pursuance of a military objective in any event, it can only be to get Delta G out of it's problems which means it was a commercialisation of those projects, but it was a commercialisation of the project in directions that suggested to you that an illegal activity was being embarked upon.?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I considered the possibility of it being an illegal activity, but on the other hand it might have been a rounding off of the whole CBW effort, where this whole process of incapacitation was concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a very funny way of rounding off any project when you produce large quantities of substances that might be abused.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well it all depends on what sort of dispersal system you are using here because if you want to incapacitate an enemy, you probably have to make a weaponry system that can produce quite a large quantity of this incapacitant in gaseous form at a certain concentration level to be inhaled by whoever you are chucking the stuff at, so one thousand (1 000) kilograms is not that much in those terms.

CHAIRPERSON: But you became aware, at a certain stage you became aware that capsules were being made out of this compound.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I wasn't aware of it at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become aware of it?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I only became aware of it on the 4th of February when I was arrested for being in possession of capsules that was made at Medchem Pharmaceuticals.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have been aware of your possession thereof before you were caught with the ... (indistinct).

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I thought it was normal because we got a circular and said that Medchem Pharmaceuticals from Dr Mijburgh in 1992, that Medchem Pharmaceuticals would be the selling arm of this group of companies and I assumed that this was an ordinary commercial sort of projects and that was throw away capsules that remained behind on that and that is why I didn't give any attention to it.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it you opinion that this ecstasy was produced and kept in capsule form?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I was never aware of it prior to having those tablets, capsules analysed by the police that it contained ecstasy, I've never analysed those capsules.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think the tablets were when they were kept in your place?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Can you repeat that Mr Ntsebeza?

CHAIRPERSON: When the capsule were kept in your place, what did you think it was?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I thought it was normal pharmaceuticals that was formulated there because that was the objective of Medchem Pharmaceuticals to make anti-malarials and stuff like that.

CHAIRPERSON: And mandrax, when it was produced in such quantities, what did it suggest to you?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I didn't know about the mandrax project and I didn't know that it was produced in any quantity.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Now CR, what effect would it have on human beings - first of all did you ever see it being ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Tested, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Tested.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Not even on animals?