Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: That is, in fact, true. I am asking what went on in his mind, Mr Chairman, and, perhaps, again, as we have often seen in these proceedings, it may be a question of argument.  Certainly, certainly, Mr Chairman, the point about placing this on record at this stage is that, hopefully, it might assist you at some stage or other when you have come to a conclusion and you read the record you will find all of this together.  It is one the purposes of putting these questions in the order in which I am putting them.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not purely argument.  They might have decided that Sebotsa was a really inefficient member of MK and not a danger whereas the others were sending a horde of young people out to get trained.  It is, surely, something that only your clients can express an opinion on if they did succumb to such a decision.

MR VISSER: Now, what was the name of this brother of Bobby Sebotsa?  Can I suggest to you that his name was Lebohang?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is him.

MR VISSER: Are you aware ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Spell please.

INTERPRETER: L E B O H A N G, Lebohang.

MR VISSER: Thank you for whoever did that.  Now, are you aware that Lebohang shot at people on two occasions?  Once at his shop and once at the trade centre, are you aware of that?
MR DU PLESSIS OBJECTS

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chair, I am not certain whether if we are speaking about the correct person.  At a certain stage there was a command with regards to one of the Sebotsas that one of the persons had to be shot due to a problem he had with the police and because he is still having this problem with the police.  I am not sure if it is the same person, it is my instructions that it is, indeed, not the same person, except if I am completely wrong.

MR VISSER: I have no comment on who the gentlemen is, I am putting my instructions, Mr Chairman.  He was the brother of Bobby Sebotsa and now my learned friend can work out for himself whether that is the man he likes it to be or not.

ADV MEMANI: Maybe you should give him a moment.  I think he is being instructed on the very issue.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chair, it was my instructions that the matter regarding Mr Sebotsa's brother does not have anything to do with this incident.  I cannot take this matter any further, but I can put it to you that it is, in fact, the case that the Sebotsa we are dealing with here and about whom this application is has nothing to do with these facts.  I do not know what the relevance could be except if my learned friend could inform me, perhaps, about that.

MR VISSER: Well, I trust, Mr Chairman, that on our track record you will be entitled to expect us to give you the answer to that question very shortly.  He shot at people, one, and one occasion at his shop, he had a shop and there he shot at people and again at the trade centre, I am told.  Do you know about that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: And is it not correct that in both those instances there were, there was a child involved that was shot?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: In point of fact, the child or the young person that was shot at the trade centre was here during the proceedings yesterday or the day before, in a wheelchair.  He is paralysed.  Do you know about that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I know that child.

MR VISSER: Yes, and I am going to suggest to you, Mr Motsamai, that the community did not take too kindly to this situation where Mr Lebohang shot at people and the probabilities are that somebody of the community attacked his house to express their dissatisfaction.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Do not compare my attack with Mamome to Mr Sebotsa, at Mr Sebotsa's house and the attack at his shop by the community, I beg you.

MR VISSER: Yes, I just want to suggest to you that it will be denied that you ever received instructions or went with any other one of my clients to perpetrate an attack on the house of the brother of Mr Bobby Sebotsa.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It does not confirm that which you state.  I am telling you that we were told this that I stated to you.

MR VISSER: Whatever that means.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you to say that there was an attack by the community on his shop?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.  His shop was attacked, but the house was not attacked.  The shop was attacked and at that house, he no longer stayed there in that house.  His brother stayed there, Bobby Sebotsa's brother.  The shop was then attacked, they never attacked the house.  I am referring here to the community.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, I am told that because of the reaction of the community, Bobby Sebotsa's brother, Lebohang, actually fled Bloemfontein and he now lives in Mafikeng.  No, oh, I am sorry, I withdraw the last part of the question.  He fled Bloemfontein.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, he never ran away or fled Bloemfontein.  He just immigrated somewhere.  He still comes to Bloemfontein.  That is the story you are told so that you come and argue with me here.  Based on the command we received, that is all.

MR VISSER: I will tell you another story I am told.  His  house, that is the brother's house, Lebohang's house, was not attacked and burnt once, it happened twice.  Do you know about that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You are asking me what I do not know.  I am stating here the attack I took part in.  Now you are asking me something that I do not know.  When you refer to the two attacks, I do not know about that.

MR VISSER: All right.  After you attacked and burnt the house, and I will stay with the reference as we have it on the papers, Mr Chairman, of Bobby Sebotsa's brother, was that house thereafter, to your knowledge, fixed up and did somebody live in it again, after you attacked it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not have that knowledge.  You are the one who was giving that, who is giving that knowledge.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, you are the one that went to report to Coetzee and Shaw on how you say you carried out your instructions.  Did you tell them that the house was destroyed or what did you tell them?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Are you angry, Sir?

MR VISSER: I hope I do not sound angry, because there is no point in the world of getting angry with you, Mr Motsamai.  It is not that important to me.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We did report to him that the house burnt down.

MR VISSER: Completely?  Completely?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That the house burnt completely, we did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can explain, this house that you talk about, did it belong to Bobby Sebotsa?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That belonged to his brother, Lebohang.  The one who is stated here.

MR VISSER: All right.  I just want to place on record that, according to my instructions, the house was burnt on one occasion, it was then fixed up and was burnt down again and now it is not suitable for human habitation anymore.  It is completely burnt down now, on the second occasion.  Do you agree with anything of what I have put to you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know, Sir.  I never walked along that street.  That is something I would not know.

MR VISSER: All right.  Let us go onto the house of Nicos.  That is your item four, I believe, at page 146 of bundle A.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chair, can I please just make sure, was it put as saying that the community burnt down the house of Mr Bobby Sebotsa?  I am not sure what was said.  Can my learned friend please just clear that up for me?

MR VISSER: The statement that was made is that there, that it is probable that the community, in fact, burnt the house of Mr Bobby Sebotsa's brother.  There is a probability.  I take it no further than that.

ADV MEMANI: And subsequently a member of the security branch took the rap for that.