Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

BISHOP STOREY: There was no question in our minds that they had been restrained, none whatever.  They were brought there under escort, they were taken away under escort, and Mr Ayob was told that they would be released to him only if certain conditions were met.  He replied that he wasn't prepared to go along with that, that they must be released unconditionally.  So, yes, the implication is quite clear that they were under a form of restraint, they were not free agents.

MR SEMENYA: Who was their escort, by the way?

BISHOP STOREY: The escort was, to my knowledge, Xoliswa Falati and Jerry Richardson.

MR SEMENYA: At least at the place where this happened, there is no suggestion that Mrs Mandela had anything to do with their movement, the movement of these children.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I've said, I do not have her name down in my, in the notes made at the time and, therefore, you are right, yes.  There is no evidence here that these were her conditions.

MR SEMENYA: Now, already Xoliswa Falati happens to be who she is.  We know Richardson admits to certain of the murders.  Is there any basis to suggest that, at that time, anyone other than Xoliswa Falati and Richardson had inhibited this boys to go wherever they would have chosen to?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, as I said before, the evidence that suggests somebody in addition to them, is the evidence that was brought to me repeatedly by the Crisis Committee that the person who gave them permission or withheld it to see the youngsters was Mrs Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, please.  I suspect, I mean, that you will be wanting to continue with Bishop Storey for quite a bit, and maybe the hope that we would have finished by lunch time was forlorn, and, therefore, I suggest that we break now, and we will have to have a shorter lunch than usual.  If we can try to be back at two.  Is that okay?  Thank you very much for the democratic ... [end of tape 3b]
HEARING ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.  All right.  Peter Storey. Please just settle.  You are still under oath.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Semenya.  Maybe just -  Hello.  Please just sit down.  Passengers are not allowed to be walking up and down the aisles.  Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, just finally, my information is that immediately Mrs Mandela came back from seeing Mr Mandela on that particular day the dissolution of the club was discussed, it was dissolved on that particular day, and the secretary of the team, at that time, one Absalom Madonsela(?), who is now in Jongkop, dissolved and even destroyed the records of the team.  Do you have information to the contrary?

BISHOP STOREY: No, sir.

MR SEMENYA: And that no soccer was played beyond that time?

BISHOP STOREY: I've no idea.

MR SEMENYA: That it is possible that various individuals would have been described as members of the football team where no football at that time was played at all?

BISHOP STOREY: I've no idea.

MR SEMENYA: I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yes.

MR KADES: Bishop Storey, my name is Norman Kades, I represent the Asvat family.  Bishop, [inaudible], I represent the family of the late Dr Abu-Baker Asvat who, as you know, was murdered on the 27th of January of 1989.  The family, Bishop, still seek answers to numerous questions that have been raised over the years, answers which have never, questions which have never been satisfactorily answered in so far as the family is concerned.  Maybe, Bishop, you can assist us with regard to some of those outstanding matters.

BISHOP STOREY: I deeply and dearly wish I could.  The Asvat family came to see me at some point after the doctor's murder, and we had a long discussion, but there was no information I could give them which would help in any way.  I've read the theories, I find some of them very consistent with what I think may have happened, but I've no evidence to help, I'm afraid.

MR KADES: Well, Bishop, with regard to the information that you have and certain information that we have, which may not be, coincide with the information that you have, maybe you can assist us.  You have told us of the meeting on Monday of the 16th of January of 1989, 10 days, 11 days prior to the murder of Dr Asvat. At that meeting you have told us of the arrival of Krish Naidoo, the attorney accompanied by Katiza Cebekhulu.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, sir.

MR KADES: Did you know, at that stage, that Katiza Cebekhulu was the one who had originally accused Paul Verryn of having sodomised him?

BISHOP STOREY: I think so, yes.

MR KADES: You had access to Katiza Cebekhulu at that stage?

BISHOP STOREY: Oh, no.

MR KADES: Not at all?

BISHOP STOREY: No, the only time I met him was in Krish Naidoo's office when he ... (intervention).

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: ... in fact, refused to come with me.

MR KADES: Well, Krish Naidoo arrived with him that evening of the 16th.  Did he also leave with him or did he leave him in the custody of someone other than ...

BISHOP STOREY: I don't know.

MR KADES: You don't know.  Did you not speak to Katiza ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR KADES: ... Cebekhulu that evening?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I didn't.

MR KADES: He did make a statement, did he not?

BISHOP STOREY: In front of the meeting?

MR KADES: He, yes, in front ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: ... of the meeting.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: And he wasn't asked, or did he volunteer information that he had been sodomised or even that he had been taken to a doctor?

BISHOP STOREY: He didn't mention, to my memory, having been taken to a doctor.  He may have, it is not part of my notes.  He did make the allegation against Mr Verryn, that Mr Verryn had lain on top of him on one occasion.

MR KADES: When did you first have access to Cebekhulu, do you recall?

BISHOP STOREY: The only time I met him, the only time I met him was the afternoon of the 16th when I went to meet these youths at the office of Krish Naidoo.

MR KADES: Yes, thank you.  Did you ever meet the late Dr Asvat?

BISHOP STOREY: I'm sure I had met him, yes, on a number of occasions, but we were not, we had run into each other, because ... (intervention).

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: ... there were people you ran into at certain meetings and occasions in those days.

MR KADES: But you didn't have any ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: I didn't know him personally.

MR KADES: You didn't have any dealings with him with regard to this incident?

BISHOP STOREY: No, sir.

MR KADES: And the accusations by the boys that they had been sodomised?

BISHOP STOREY: No, sir.

MR KADES: When you read the news, the Sunday Times of the 29th of January and the headline which linked the church to the murder of Dr Asvat, did you make any enquiries or any investigations concerning the evidence which might have been in the possession of Dr Asvat?

BISHOP STOREY: No.  I mentioned, I think, earlier, that I was angry, this was such a bizarre and absurd allegation, but I didn't make any investigations into the circumstances of Dr Asvat's death.

MR KADES: Well, the second paragraph of the entry, of your entry on the 29th of January is that you convened or you set about convening a meeting with key community members and ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Oh yes, yes.

MR KADES: ... and that you also spoke to Dr Motlana.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: This was, obviously, a most disturbing, as you have told us, accusation against the church and a matter which concerned you very greatly, and you had to deal with it.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: Can you tell us who these community leaders were at that meeting that you set about meeting?

BISHOP STOREY: I'm afraid I don't think I can.  I can't remember.

MR KADES: Well, well, ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: I can't remember even whether Mr, Dr Motlana was, no, I think the, let me just, I'm trying to recall.