Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR VISSER: Did you at any stage ask Mr Nyanda to let you have a piece with an optical sight?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: To ask Mr Nyanda?  I don't have to ask him, he's my deputy.

MR VISSER: Could you have ordered him?  Do you remember it?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I did not ask Nyanda to give me a piece.  I did not ask Nyanda to give me a piece.

MR VISSER: I wouldn't suppose that you have a copy of The Other Side of the Story on the table before you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No.

MR VISSER: Can I hand you a copy, please?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Welcome.

CHAIRPERSON: What are we going into all this about?  I'm completely lost Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we are dealing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We are investigating the application for amnesty arising out of the deaths of two people.

MR VISSER: Yes and Mr Chairman, I'm dealing with the credibility of this witness at the moment.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Oh.

MR VISSER: And, I'm finished, I just want to point to him some photographs contained in The Other Side of the Story and I want him to identify the firearm, Mr Chairman, he's given evidence about that.

CHAIRPERSON: What firearm are you talking about?

MR VISSER: One which they bought on the black market.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a night sight.

MR VISSER: They bought a night sight, yes.

MR VISSER: May I show the witness this photograph?  I'm going to show you photographs.  I'm going to show you photographs contained in "The Other Side of the Story" at page 198, the very last page, and I'm going to tell you what the background is.  It is alleged that the articles which you see on that page in the photographs was confiscated from the possession of Mr Nyanda when he was arrested.  On that assumption I want to ask you to look and see whether you can see a firearm on that, on any of the photographs?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.  No, but I see a firearm.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Can you identify that firearm?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, I can't.

MR VISSER: I see.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, the firearm carries markings, it has numbers and if you tell me that just from this photograph I must turn round and say it's a particular firearm, I would be an incredible ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: If you want to tell us today that you can't say it's an Uzzi, or a Rocket Launcher, or a PMC, I'm happy to accept your answer?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Well, why doesn't he ask the question to say, is this, what make of firearm?

MR VISSER: Alright, what make of firearm?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Why say identify the firearm when he's trying to link me and says it's credibility, trying to link me with a weapon and trying to put it back into paragraph 10 of Stadler?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Maharaj, if I could just cut this short, do you know what sort of weapon that is?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, I don't know.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions to this witness, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: Perhaps you'd just care to look at those photographs, Mr Chairman, and our submission in argument will be that they speak for themselves.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sir, that night site too, there's a problem in that photograph.  The NATO night site is a single piece, not a double piece.  Single piece, it was state of the art in 1987.  Huge developments since then, but the essential point that counsel has tried to say is that he's testing my credibility by saying that I was trying to assassinate Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've said that several times and I don't think that counsel has in fact said it or put it to you, Mr Maharaj.  Did you say you'd concluded.

MR VISSER: I never suggested it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS THABETHE: No, questions Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

MS POSWA: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS POSWA

MR WILLS: I have no questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR VISSER: With pleasure, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, just at the moment we have a little logistical problem and that is that the photocopy machine, upon which we have to rely heavily as well as the friendly assistance of Ms Thabethe to reproduce matters, we have not been able to get the copies of the statements which I drew over the weekend ready and it certainly will save time if we have it before us, could we perhaps ask you to stand down for a moment or even take an early lunch, I'm not sure which you will prefer, in order for us to see whether we can sort out this problem, so that we can go on and attempt to finish the rest of the witnesses this afternoon?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR VISSER: Yes.  We'll think of that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...We'll adjourn now till half-past one.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn now till half-past one.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS