Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I have already said to the Commission previously that I was a policeman who recruited, recruited or maybe given the instruction to report to Mr Van Wyk.  Who Mr Van Wyk, his position was the head of the security department and the manager for the investigation department, it was Mr Gerber. So I was told to report to Mr Van Wyk.  It was only temporarily when I was given that instruction by Mr Van Wyk, when he was going on leave, that anything I want to maybe any information I have got, I must pass it direct to Mr Gerber.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Sir, now you were a member of this investigating team for two years.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not two years, a year and a half.

ADV VAN DER WALT: How long?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: A year and a half.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Yes.  I am putting it to you that you went to Soweto with Van Eyck on various occasions.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I used to (indistinct).

ADV VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VAN DER WALT

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Thanks.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR MPSHE CALLS

EMILY FOURIE: (Duly sworn, states).

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Commissioner.  Mrs Fourie, you are the deputy general secretary to the Transport Workers Union of South Africa. Is that correct?

EMILY FOURIE: That's correct, yes, the Motor Transport Workers Union.

UNKNOWN: Stationed in Johannesburg.

EMILY FOURIE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: For how long have you been holding this position?

EMILY FOURIE: For the past 16 years.

UNKNOWN: 16 years?

EMILY FOURIE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you know the deceased, Samuel Kanaga?

EMILY FOURIE: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: How did you know him?

EMILY FOURIE: Samuel Kanaga became known to me when he was transferred from the guarding division together with approximately ten other employees to the CIT division.

UNKNOWN: Could you just wait there.  What is the CIT, what does it mean?

EMILY FOURIE: Cash in transit division.  There is the two divisions.  You have the guarding which is the guards that guard the building, and then you have the division which is called the cash in transit which is the division that carries money between clients and banks and the Fidelity Guards' depots.

UNKNOWN: Right.

EMILY FOURIE: There is a distinct difference between the two divisions and in fact they operate from different branches as well.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

EMILY FOURIE: And Samuel together with a number of other employees were selected from the West Rand guarding division branch. In fact they were, had been hand-picked to come over and work on the cash in transit division.  The company in fact was trying a new thing, they were placing these guards on the vehicles as porters.

UNKNOWN: You say he was transferred from the guarding division.  Guarding division of which company?

EMILY FOURIE: Fidelity Guards.

UNKNOWN: Oh, thank you.  Continue.

EMILY FOURIE: I believe there were about 600 employees on the West Rand, the guarding division and these, there was about a dozen of them who were then selected to come over and as I explained, they were then going to be used to just carry the money tins and the company created a new position and they called them porters, and they were - they paid them a higher wage than the guarding division, but not the prescribed wage as legislated by the Industrial Council,

UNKNOWN: Mrs Fourie, I just want to ask something about the Fidelity Guards transferring people and what they were going to do.  How did you know this because you are not an employee of Fidelity Guards.

EMILY FOURIE: Because we are extensively involved with the company and in fact, on a national basis, at that stage we had a closed shop agreement with Fidelity Guards, so we had a 100% representivity in the armed banking division.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. You may continue.

EMILY FOURIE: If I may just continue.  What then transpired, the union became aware of this, that these persons were employed and that they were not being paid the correct wage, and in fact, a court case ensued which we went to arbitration.  We settled the matter out of court and it was decided that these 12 persons would be used at the Hillbrow base, that their salaries would not be reduced back to the guarding division wage, but they would not be used on the vehicles.  And that is how I became, how I got involved and I knew Samuel and his colleagues from the guarding division personally.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Besides knowing Samuel in his capacity as an employee or a guard at Fidelity, did you know him in any other capacity?

EMILY FOURIE: No.

UNKNOWN: Would you say that you had close relationship with Samuel Kanaga?

EMILY FOURIE: No, I didn't.  Not at that stage. His family afterwards, yes, but not with Samuel.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

EMILY FOURIE: I knew him as we know our members.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  I am going to pass on to you a document, Exhibit A, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.

HASSAN MALL: A?

UNKNOWN: Exhibit A.

HASSAN MALL: It is I, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: No, A.  A.  The one that was handed in yesterday, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.

HASSAN MALL: Oh, I see.

UNKNOWN: The very first one.

HASSAN MALL: Yes. The I in front of members of the Committee is still going to be addressed.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, thank you. Exhibit A.

EMILY FOURIE: I do have it in front of me, through you, Mr Chair.

UNKNOWN: Do you see that exhibit in front of you?

EMILY FOURIE: I do.

UNKNOWN: That letter was addressed to yourself?

EMILY FOURIE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: In your capacity as the deputy secretary of the union.

EMILY FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Could you tell this Committee what prompted that letter?

EMILY FOURIE: Through you, Mr Chair, yes, I have to take you a little bit back in time.  This letter was the 7th of November 1989.  This letter was prompted by an ongoing problem that we had with the security investigation department of Fidelity Guards of whom at the stage, I now want to go back to April 1985, Mr Gerber at that stage did head up this division.  Two of our White members had reported to our office that they had been assaulted by Mr Gerber during questioning, that they had been called into the office individually.  That they had been punched around and in fact they had been kicked in the stomach. There was no visible physical injury, but we decided to take the matter up with the company, and a letter was written to the company in April of 1985. I then had a telephone call and they suggested that I go and see Mr Gerber and discuss the matter with him personally, which I did.  During my discussion with Mr Gerber he didn't admit nor deny that he had assaulted our members, other than to say how else was he supposed to extract information when people were not willing to co-operate.

UNKNOWN: These two White members, can you still remember their names?

EMILY FOURIE: I know that the one person was a Mr Van Wyk, but unfortunately I can't remember the other person's name.

UNKNOWN: Do you know if ever these two White members were members of any political organisation or liberation movement?

UNKNOWN: No, I wouldn't know. Mr Chairman, we have approximately a third White membership, third Black and third Coloured and Indian membership.  So you know they could belong to extreme right and left, then I wouldn't know that.  But suffice to say that our union is not aligned to any political party. In fact, we are not even affiliated to any federation.  We are totally independent.

UNKNOWN: Would you then say that these two White members came to you, by you I am referring to the union, to complain about pure assaults on them?

EMILY FOURIE: Pure assaults, yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, you may continue.