Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-03

MR KEMP: Chairperson, the next applicant is applicant number 5, Jacobus 
Kok.

JACOBUS KOK: (Duly sworn, states).

MR KEMP: Mr Chairperson, before I proceed with the evidence in this matter, as 
in the case with Mr Du Toit, an amendment was placed before you after the tea 
break.  Similarly amending paragraph 8 of the application for amnesty to 
include the possibilities or the sub-crimes indicated in that notice. I merely 
want to point that out, that it has been handed to the Commission.  I will be 
referring to the application of Mr Kok as set out ...

ADV DE JAGER: And are you formally applying for the amendment?

MR KEMP: Yes. Yes, indeed. I do not know procedurally whether it is 
necessary to apply for an amendment. It is merely an addition to the present 
application, but in so far as it is necessary, I will seek such an amendment of 
the application, both in the case of Mr Du Toit and Mr Kok.

CHAIRPERSON: It is actually an amendment, even if it is an addition.  So 
anyway, the amendment is granted.

MR KEMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will be referring to Volume 1 of the 
documentation before the Committee and in particular, to the application of 
Jacobus Kok, as it appears from page 92 onwards.
	Mr Kok, would you please look at page 92. You will there see that this 
is an application for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Act. The names 
which appear there, the address, identity number, et cetera, is that correct, is 
this your application?

MR KOK: Yes.

MR KEMP: The application goes as far as page 114 of the document. So it is 
23 pages long, the application itself and it was drawn up by you.

MR KOK: That's correct.

MR KEMP: Do you confirm the correctness of what appears in that 
application?

MR KOK: Yes, I do.

MR KEMP: You were also a member of the South African Police and 
attached to the technical section of the security branch during 1989. Is that 
correct?

MR KOK: Yes.

MR KEMP: Who was your commanding officer?

MR KOK: My commander at that stage was Lieut-Col Du Toit.

MR KEMP: It is common cause that during 1989 and in particular, on the 
13th of December 1989, certain events took place at the technical section, and 
in which you were involved on that day. Is that correct?

MR KOK: That is correct.

MR KEMP: These events related to what later became known as the 
Motherwell matter. Is that correct?

MR KOK: Yes.

MR KEMP: How did you become involved in that?

MR KOK: It was during December 1989. I don't have any independent 
recollection of the precise date, but I now know that it must have been about 
the 13th of December.  During the morning, Col Du Toit called me to his 
office and told me that there was to be a very important operation in Port 
Elizabeth.  He briefly explained to me that it turned on the matter of askaris 
that had or were about to defect to the ANC.  He further ordered me to prepare 
certain explosives and the manufacture of an explosive device.  Since the 
people had to be eliminated by means of an explosive device.

MR KEMP: Was it conveyed to you that it had to take place by way of a 
motorcar bomb?

MR KOK: Yes.

MR KEMP: Were you told in what way the explosion had to take place? In 
other words did it have to take place by means of a limpet mine or commercial 
explosives or what?

MR KOK: It would take place by means of a remote control device.

MR KEMP: And the explosives to be used?

MR KOK: I prepared - I wasn't informed exactly what the circumstances 
would be, and I didn't know who the targets were to be.  So I prepared for any 
circumstances underground and I used a commercial and a military type of 
explosive and I packed these and came down to Port Elizabeth.

MR KEMP: What was the relationship between yourself and Du Toit at that 
stage?

MR KOK: I was attached to the mechanical section and Col Du Toit was the 
commander of that section.  We carried out certain covert actions and these 
actions were done on a need-to-know basis.  We had a very good 
understanding.  We trusted each other completely and if information was 
conveyed by one person to the other, it was dealt with on that basis.

MR KEMP: How long had you and Du Toit been working together at that 
stage?

MR KOK: I joined in May 1982, that is the technical section that I joined. So 
it was approximately seven years.

MR KEMP: It is common cause that Du Toit and yourself later travelled to 
Port Elizabeth. How did you get there?

MR KOK: Du Toit informed me that De Kock would arrange for a vehicle 
along with cash to buy our food and fuel expenses and we left for Port 
Elizabeth in a black Jetta.

MR KEMP: When did you start the journey and when did you arrive?

MR KOK: It was the afternoon after De Kock had been to Waal du Toit, with 
the request for technical support and we left at about eight or nine that 
evening and arrived at Port Elizabeth the next morning, the 14th of December.

MR KEMP: After your arrival in Port Elizabeth, what happened then?

MR KOK: I don't know Port Elizabeth at all. I didn't at that stage. We 
stopped at a garage along the Marine Road, Beach Road and it was early 
morning, it was sunrise when we arrived at Port Elizabeth, and Du Toit 
phoned Nieuwoudt from a coin phone and he was to meet us at a specific 
point. I also didn't know Nieuwoudt at all and I met him there for the first 
time.

MR KEMP: Did he take you to a place in Port Elizabeth thereafter?

MR KOK: Yes, Nieuwoudt drove in front of us and he took us to safe 
premises. I don't know where these premises are, I wouldn't be able to tell you 
at all in what suburb it was, because I wasn't familiar with Port Elizabeth.

MR KEMP: When you arrived at this place, whom did you find there?

MR KOK: I can't remember what time we arrived there, but when we did, two 
members of Vlakplaas, Snor Vermeulen and Lionel Snyman were already 
there.  Then there was also a person, a stranger present. I didn't know him at 
all. Deon Nieuwoudt was there as well.

MR KEMP: Did you see Martiens Ras there?

MR KOK: No, I didn't even know at that stage that Martiens Ras was in Port 
Elizabeth.

MR KEMP: What happened at that house on that morning?

MR KOK: There was a short meeting, which was led by this person, and 
during that meeting it was confirmed that we were part of this order operation 
to prepare the explosives and to place it in a vehicle which would be provided 
to us by Nieuwoudt, and that's what was discussed.

MR KEMP: Did you later leave this place and go somewhere else?

MR KOK: Yes.  The meeting didn't take place for very long.  I am not sure 
how long.  Waal and I then left those premises, that was in convoy.  Whether 
we drove with somebody I can't recall, but we went to a certain point in the 
city where we waited.  At some point Deon Nieuwoudt joined us and we 
followed him.

MR KEMP: Was he driving the same car in which you had gone to the house?

MR KOK: I can't recall.

MR KEMP: He left you somewhere along the road and what did he go and do 
then?

MR KOK: I really am not certain, I am not sure what the arrangements were. 
After the meeting we withdrew, or I personally withdrew so in retrospect I can 
say that perhaps he went to fetch the car, but I am speculating.

MR KEMP: You have no independent recollection of that?

MR KOK: No, I don't.

MR KEMP: After his return were you waiting for him in the city?

MR KOK: That's correct.

MR KEMP: Did you then depart for some other place?  Where did you go?

MR KOK: Yes, he took us along various routes, I don't know what these 
were, and we eventually arrived on the outskirts of Port Elizabeth at an 
isolated spot, and we stopped there.

MR KEMP: Were there any houses nearby?

MR KOK: No, no, there were no houses.

MR KEMP: What happened at this place?

MR KOK: We prepared the vehicle, and placed the explosive device in the 
car and we complied with our technical responsibilities.

MR KEMP: Who were present?