Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I explained that I had gone to my home and these boys came to me and they took me to show these girls and that is how it came about because they took me to show me these girls after having come to my house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But I thought it was one person who came to your house to advise you about your presence of suspicious looking women and that as a result of that you then were accompanied by the people that you've mentioned in your affidavit at paragraph 32 on page 145 as being Tolbert Nkethlamini and others whose names you have forgotten?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I mention in paragraph 32 that I, Mondli Duma, Gagasi, Tolbert Nkethlamini and others went to this place.  They are the people who showed me these girls, I would have not have been able to see them had I remained in the house.  They are the ones who took me to see the girls.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did the person who apprised you about the alleged spies mention to you how they were able to establish that these people would be spies?  Were you able to ascertain what exactly attracted their attention to these young women being spies of the UDF?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Firstly, Tolbert Nkethlamini would move from Guguletu to Ngoyi's house, moving street by street, they were patrolling and they are the ones who saw the girls.  They would take regular reports to the camp and as the people who saw the girls they came to me and told me about it.  I had never seen these girls at any IFP meeting, it was the first time we had seen them and they were also seeing us for the first time and we asked them questions and they responded to those questions.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that the girls were spotted by Tolbert?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Tolbert Nkethlamini.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now is it not what you had stated in your affidavit that an Inkatha member did not identify which member that was, was the one who spotted these young women and that you only took Tolbert Nkethlamini together with Mondli Duma and Gagasi after you had been told of the presence of these young women by this unidentified Inkatha person?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: If that is what I said it must have been a mistake.  Those are the people who had come to my home, if I have put it down the way you put it, I think I made a mistake.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's how you have put it.  Now in your affidavit, you have detailed the events in such a way that you stated that before you went to seek clarity on what you were to do with the young women, you first raped one of the young women - that's what you have stated in your affidavit.  However, when you gave viva voce evidence, you said you went to Nkethle to seek clarity before you had committed any of these grotesque and gruesome act.  Now which of the two is the correct thing that happened?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Chairperson, I would like to leave it up to the Committee to decide which version they are going to accept because this happened a long while ago and there may be a number of mistakes but what is important is that all these activities and acts did take place.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane you signed this affidavit quite a long time ago, is it not so?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact your affidavit was signed some time in December 1996?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm sure you were able to recall events better than you can in 1998?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I think when I wrote this I was with the I.T.U.  When I came here I started thinking about what happened here so what I am saying now is what I remember more clearly than what is written down here.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is this not the same evidence you led before the criminal court?  The sequence of events?

MR WILLS: Sorry, I must come in there.  With respect Ms Committee Member, my recollection is I was involved in that defence and there was simply a plea without pleading evidence.  There was no evidence that he led on any particular version at the Supreme Court, we just led evidence on what we could in mitigation but it didn't go into the sequence of events.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Wills.  You agree with the explanation that has been given by Mr Wills?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have a serious problem with regard to the two versions, I think it's only fair for me to put it to you Mr Hlongwane.  You know you have a responsibility to comply with the act which requires that you must comply with a requirement of full disclosure giving us full details of what happened with regard to any of the offences that you are seeking amnesty before this Committee and if you come with responses like it is for the Committee to decide when I am trying to establish which of the two versions which are before me, I have to accept I find myself in great difficulties.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I am saying this with regards to dates and time when these events took place.  I am not referring to everything that is in the affidavit.  I am saying this because it happened a long while ago and secondly I may not be able to tell the story in the correct sequence but what is important that I come here and tell the Committee and the community what happened and how it happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think it's important for you to realise that the reason that you have advanced for having gone to Zekele Nkethle was the fact that you wanted to find out what you were to do with the girls and according to your viva voce evidence, what you were to do with the girls before anything had actually taken place, before you had raped one of the girls so that would be something that I think would be capable of being remembered by you as an important factor, whether you raped the girl before you went to Zekele Nkethle or you raped the girl after you had been advised by Zekele Nkethle to teach them a lesson?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I explained before that it is difficult but I think it was before we went to Zekele Nkethle.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you have raped her before you went to Zekele and afterwards?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No, I think it was only before.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You could have raped her before you went to Zekele Nkethle?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is what I'm saying.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And why if I may ask in the event that we now have said that you raped her before you went to Zekele Nkethle, why did you do that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Even if I had not gone to Zekele, I could have taken any decision with regards to her because she was a UDF member.  Even if I had not consulted Zekele, I could have done to her what they usually did to our members because they also had to experience the pain of what Stembiso, Mashu and others were doing to our members therefore we would have terrorised her in any way possible because the objective would have been to let UDF members also feel the pain.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So that being so then it would actually dilute the reasons that you have advised, the reason why you raped her was because you were advised by Zekele to teach them a lesson so as to discourage other prospective UDF girls who wanted to promote spying on IFP stronghold.  It wasn't that reason, it wasn't to discourage or dissuade other UDF members from spying on you?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: The reason that was given by Zekele is also the one that I have advanced.  Zekele was very pleased when I reported the matter about the girls.  He left the meeting and he also gave me or he gave us one councillor to drive us to carry out the task therefore he was indeed pleased.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What greatly pleased him, was it the fact that you had raped one of the girls?