Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR BERGER: And throughout the trial you never got to know their names.

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not be able to state their names but I know their identity.  We were 17 when we were accused, so we were many.  So I can identify them but I don't know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were accused?  This big trial in other words.

MR MAZIBUKO: I think we were 76 or 79.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the 17 that you're talking about, what about those persons?

MR MAZIBUKO: The 17 are the ones which were convicted or found guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	So besides the three people whom you've mentioned, none of your co-applicants for amnesty took an AK47, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: You mean - I remember Mkhize.  I did not see others as to whether - if there was one among them who grabbed a gun, I would say that but I did not see them.  I did not see one of the taking a gun.

MR BERGER: No, no, you said - you mentioned the three and the others, approximately 7 guns were taken by people who were acquitted, isn't that what you said?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't remember him saying that.  All he said was that the other persons who took the guns are person who he did not know but whom he can identify.  Unless you're making the assumption that there it must follow that if there were 10 guns, and we don't know whether there were 10 guns, they must have been taken by those who were acquitted.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm sure I heard the witness say that people who took the other guns were acquitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.
	Mr Mazibuko, you said that the other guns were taken by the person who were acquitted.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I said - Mr Berger asked me as to whether among those who took the guns were they accused in this case and I said yes, but they were acquitted.

MR BERGER: So it follows from what you've said, I ask you, that none of your co-applicants other than Mr Mkhize and Mr Lukozi, if one counts him as a co-applicant, none of the others took AK47's, am I right?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is correct because I've added by saying, if one of them or some of the grabbed guns I would state their names, I would identify them that they did but they did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't the appropriate answer that you did not see anyone of the other applicants, except for those that you've mentioned, take the AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that your answer went even further than that and that is that if any of your co-applicants other than Mr Lukozi or Mr Mkhize had taken an AK47, you would have seen that and you would have disclosed his name now?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I said among the applicants, if one of them did grab a gun I would identify them and say he grabbed a gun.  Among the people who grabbed guns I saw Lukozi and Mkhize.  I was able to identify Lukozi, Mkhize and Damarra.  I was not able to see others because there was confusion.

MR BERGER: So when Mr Chonco said here are the guns, take them, he actually went and took a gun himself?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Berger, just to get clarity here.
	We have two Mkhize's, applicants here, which one of the Mkhizes are you referring to?

MR MAZIBUKO: I refer to Xambelele Mkhize, the one testified the day before yesterday.  It's Beki Nkosi Mkhize.

ADV SIGODI: And Sipho Lukozi, is he the same as Thomas Lukozi?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Advocate Sigodi.
	My question, Mr Mazibuko, is Mr Damarra Chonco said there are the guns, take them and then he and Mr Mkhize both went and took guns for themselves, is that what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.  Damarra Chonco said here are the guns guys and he also grabbed one.

MR BERGER: And what happened after that?

MR MAZIBUKO: And all the people were rushing to grab guns.  From there we were given ndelezi.  So you will start by drinking ndelezi and then you'll move on and somebody will spread ndelezi on you and then from there we departed to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: So when did you go and fetch your weapons from your room?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I left my room I was not armed.  Let me explain it this way.  The alarm was rung and everybody went to the stadium.  When the women were instructed to go back they were told that only men are wanted at the stadium.
	So when I arrived at the stadium we were given an instruction by Mr Mkhize that we should go and fetch our weapons and that is when I went back to my room to fetch my weapons.

MR BERGER: And when you came back that was when Mr Mkhize said, this is now after fetching your weapon, you came back and then Mr Damarra Chonco said here are the guns, take some guns?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: So when Mr Chonco said here are guns, you already had a spear and a kierrie, a spear in one hand and a kierrie in the other?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an iron bar or a spear?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was an iron bar.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon.  For the purpose of my question it doesn't make a difference but for accuracy I apologise.
	You had an iron bar in one hand and a kierrie in the other, at the time when Mr Chonco said take a weapon, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, I had my knopkierrie and an iron bar in my hands.

MR BERGER: So the reason you didn't take a weapon was because you already had a weapon, in fact you had two weapons in your hands, isn't that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not correct.  I said that the reason why I did not take the weapon is because I was not brave enough to grab one.  Even if I wanted to take a weapon, because of that confusion and many people went to rush to grab guns, I wouldn't have been able to grab one myself.

MR BERGER: Where did those weapons come from, the weapons that were available for distribution?

MR MAZIBUKO: Those weapons were arranged by Damarra Chonco.

MR BERGER: Where did he get them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know where he got the guns.

MR BERGER: How do you know that he brought them to the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  When I entered the stadium, I said that Mr Mkhize was already giving his speech, then Damarra Chonco opened the boot of his car and he took out the weapons and he put them there on the ground.

MR BERGER: So his car was in the stadium.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, it was not in the stadium, it was beside the stadium under the tree.  It was unable to enter the stadium, it was under the tree.

MR BERGER: But you were already in the stadium, you went into the stadium.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, by the time he went to fetch the weapons in his car I was already in the stadium.

MR BERGER: And so you were in the stadium and he left the stadium, he went outside and he carried about 10 AK47s from his car into the stadium, is that what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How do you know he got them from his car?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll explain it this way.  Where I was standing in the stadium I was standing above the stands, I was able to see outside the stadium.  I was able to see his car outside the stadium.

MR BERGER: Was that a blue Nissan Skyline?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You're certain that you didn't go to the stadium when the alarm rang, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In  your statement at page 117, about a third of the way down you say the following
"The alarm went off.  We went to the stadium."
Is that a mistake?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I would say that is a mistake.

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial evidence was given by Theresa Mofokeng, do you know her?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know her well.

MR BERGER: How do you know her?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, she stayed with us in the same room because she was Nana's girlfriend.