Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ADV SANDI: Sorry, that was not very clear to me, the very last part of it.  Did you in fact see him in January after he had been released from detention?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes I did.

ADV SANDI: Where did you see him?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: At the office.

ADV SANDI: What did he say had happened to him whilst in detention?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I don't remember everything that happened, I think one of the things that he was questioned about was his involvement in the documentary film and ja, that's what I remember.

ADV SANDI: Did he make any mention of an attempt by the police to recruit him?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What did he say about that?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well as I say that I don't quite recollect and I was not the person who took the statement but I remember him talking about that.

ADV SANDI: Did he say he did in fact succumb to such pressure to work with the police?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I think so.

ADV SANDI: But you did not take the statement then?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what day this was on?  I'm trying to work backwards.

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Which one, the last arrest?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, the last time you saw him.

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: The last time I saw him was on Friday because I even, when he phoned me on Saturday I even asked him why didn't he talk to me on Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: And it's on the Friday he said, told you he had agreed to work for the police?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No it was, you know, after the release, immediately after the release that he said that, I don't remember the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he was arrested on what day?

ADV SANDI: Was it not the 20th, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Wednesday the 20th.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) the 21st?

MR RICHARD: That is the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him on that day?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes I did.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw him again on the Friday?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And which day was it you thought he told you he'd been, agreed to work for the police?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: In fact he was not telling me alone, he was saying it in an office.

ADV SANDI: Did he say how the police were going to make it possible for him to work for them?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No, I don't remember.

ADV SANDI: Did he express any attitude about him having been successfully recruited by the police or having agreed to work for the police?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: As I say I don't remember you know, everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he sent to a lawyer then?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes he was.

CHAIRPERSON: On which day, on the?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: On the day that he was released.

CHAIRPERSON: And he also made this other statement on the same day?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: May I ask one further question.  As a point of clarification, the version that I have is that while in detention on the 20th he agreed to be an informer so as to be released as soon as possible and be able to get on with his normal activities other than informing  on who he worked with, is that not correct?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just one thing.  When he phoned you on Saturday morning, you said at about 11, did he give any indication as to what exactly he wanted to talk to you about?  Did he make any vague mention of what he wanted to discuss with you?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No, he refused when I asked him and he said that he has to sit down with me.

ADV SANDI: Did he say this was something sensitive, what did he say, how did he describe?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: He said it was confidential and he cannot say it over the phone.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR RICHARD: The remaining two witnesses are the TRC's former investigator, that's Mr Pillay Zwane and Mr Lester Dumukude.  Mr Dumukude, I have no knowledge whether he has kept his undertaking to be present until today and Mr Zwane will be available tomorrow so I don't have anything further.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Dumukude here?

MR KOOPEDI: I have some explanations.  Mr Dumukude spoke to me yesterday before we adjourned that he stays at work, he was given until Wednesday, you know re the hearing Ellis Park.  He had not anticipated that he would be kept here until after his leave days.  He further indicated to me that he was made to be aware that in fact this means that he might have to give evidence and be asked questions and that he thought he would need a lawyer for that but he just told me that and I passed on the message to both my learned friends here.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you acting for him?

MR KOOPEDI: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he works so he can be contacted?  I can understand when he was only expected to be here for a few days he wouldn't spend the rest of the week sitting here.  Do you know how he can now be contacted at work with a view to getting him here tomorrow?

MR MAPOMA: I am sure my learned friend and myself would be able to find him, his particulars are well known to the TRC Amnesty Committee so ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can arrangements be made for him to be legally represented so that we can conclude this matter tomorrow?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, if he has no objections with me assisting him I would assist, I would have no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: We would be most obliged if you would do that.  Very well, if the two of you can now make arrangements to make sure he is here tomorrow morning?  How long will we take?

MR RICHARD: I have only one point that I wish to cross-examine him on and that is the report mentioned in paragraph 6, page 11, where the first applicant Mr Dube says
"I then reported the matter"
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That might take five minutes.  Very well, you could advise him on that one.

MR KOOPEDI: I must say the evidence as it stands is that if I understood Mr Dube correct, he did not report to him, he reported to Grasskopf.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and if Mr Dumukude confirms that then that's the end to the matter and we will have addresses from you after we've finished the evidence tomorrow morning?

MR KOOPEDI: I was hoping I could persuade you to allow us to do written representations.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the policy of the Amnesty Committee of late has been that we will from now on we will endeavour to get oral argument at the hearing.  If you wish to amplify by written submissions later you may do so in certain cases but we would like you to deal with the witnesses certainly while they are all fresh in our minds.
	What time tomorrow morning?  We don't need to start earlier.

MR RICHARD: 08H30 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well to me it makes no difference, I only have to walk across the road but I'm aware that others of you come from very much further.   9 o'clock.

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, one last statement?  It is possible for me to arrange for the person mentioned by the last witness, Mrs Audrey Coleman, to be present to give evidence tomorrow.  She is the person who handled the debriefing on the Thursday/Friday.  Would the Committee desire it?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what she can could say, what she can remember?  It's a matter I think you should take up with her because she's now being asked about something eleven years ago.

MR RICHARD: She does remember quite clearly and I have spoken to her.  She has to be brought from Plettenberg Bay, I'll speak to her and see what her response is.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the statement she took still available?

MR RICHARD: I would have to ask her directly.