Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

MR DONAN: You're not specific enough to say in this document that part of our process was then going to court and lying.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That would have been the necessary consequence, yes.

MR DONAN: And were you aware that the people under your command were lying about torture in courts of this land?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, indeed.

MR DONAN: They were lying both here in the Western Cape when you were in charge and in the other areas where you were in charge, according to your CV on page 1 of this document Exhibit G?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I will answer the question - yes, definitely.

MR DONAN: So there was this systematic process right throughout South Africa, firstly to torture detainees and then secondly to put them through a court process and to lie about the ...[inaudible] of their statement.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: There was no laid down procedure but that was customary, yes.

MR DONAN: We'll get to the chain of command in a little while but in the meantime, let me try and understand what you're saying in this document that you've handed in - Exhibit G, which sounds very much the same and you've reference to what the other Generals say in their submissions - Exhibit H.  You're saying that there was a conventional war in Angola and the then South West Africa, is that correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I did not add Angola but that is so.

MR DONAN: That - and I think General van Loggernberg has said he was the Chief of Staff during the ECC trial which you remember or don't you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I do not know of his evidence.

MR DONAN: Let me give you an idea of what he said and you can tell me whether you agree.  Essentially there was a war in Angola - a conventional war and on the border of South West Africa, we've dealt with that.  The ANC assisted SWAPO and certain other forces in Angola during this conventional war, do you agree with that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is true Mr Chairman.

MR DONAN: The ANC infiltrated - particularly their MK members, into South Africa to continue this war?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: They perpetrate - they visited and made incursions into urban and rural areas in South Africa and they set up safe bases?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is true Chairman.

MR DONAN: And at a certain stage you decided together with the South African defence force, that you were at war with the ANC?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: And together with the Government, Chairman.

MR DONAN: Now when you decided that you were at war with the ANC, what you did was you then said: "We can resort to other means to those that are prescribed by the rules", such as torture.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That was not stipulated anywhere.

MR DONAN: What was stipulated?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: What was stipulated was that information had to be received as soon as possible of where terrorists were, to track them down, to get information and to arrest them.

MR DONAN: And how did you interpret that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is where this aspect comes in and what it is about.  To say now that a specific person gave a command that an illegal action had to be committed, it's very unlikely.  What did happen was that over a period of time, a situation existed which people accepted as a result of pressure which was exerted upon them by the State Security Council, by the National Security Council in which the police had a say.
	They were simply told that: "You will get the answer and you will stem the tide".  And that they will use their own methods and it was accepted and the people looked away and this - the people accepted that what we did was correct.

MR DONAN: So what you're saying is that the people above promulgated directions as to how people should be treated while they were detained under Section 29 or detained by you or the defence force or anybody else but while they promulgating those orders - standing orders, they were meaning that you in fact, you should torture people.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is not true, I did not put it that way.

MR DONAN: Well, that's why I'm asking you.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It was never so.  What I said - and I cannot interpret it differently, there were a set of rules and different organisations had a responsibility to see that these rules were carried out but not one of those organisations in cases where they were not followed, accepted responsibility for this.

MR DONAN: There was a general understanding that you had to do whatever justified the end justified means and you had to do whatever was necessary?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That was so.

MR DONAN: Now, how far up did that understanding go in the pecking order - let's start with Mr Benzien, he obviously knew that he had to torture people but who above him?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I think that words are being put into my mouth now - it is not that he knew that he had to torture people.

MR DONAN: But he got an instruction that he had to deal ...[intervention]

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: That he had to deal with these people as quickly as possible?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That's correct.

MR DONAN: And that meant that if necessary he had to torture them.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It could be interpreted as such but he did not have the instruction to torture people as far as I know Mr Chairman.

MR DONAN: How did he get that belief?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I've explained that thoroughly, if you need anymore information I'd be pleased to do so.

MR DONAN: But that must have been - that belief must have been communicated by somebody above him, he must have had a common understanding with somebody directly above him.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I gave an explanation and I said that after such things were done and one still received an award or a medal for - that it could be accepted that it was condoned.  I could not have explained this more clearly.

MR DONAN: Did anybody ever say to you that these were the methods I used today?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, never.

MR DONAN: How long were you in the security police?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: 25 years Mr Chairman.

MR DONAN: And in that time nobody ever said to you: "Look, this is how I got the information out of this particular detainee"?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, Chairman, it was in general discussions.  Many people who said: "Look, we twisted his arm", that was the sort of term that was used and: "That's how I got the truth out of him" but in detail what he did - a wet bag over his head, that is something which I heard about but I never knew who did it when and where.

MR DONAN: Did you ever see any of your assistants and colleagues in action torturing people?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, Chairman.

MR DONAN: You were in the Western Cape in 1985 weren't you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is true.

MR DONAN: Did you ever know a detainee by the name Shahieda Issel?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes.

MR DONAN: And on the 17th of November 1985 - according to instructions that I was given by her in the Yengeni trial, she was taken into a lift at Caledon Square after 1pm and after she had been abused by a certain Mr Nel she met another Mr Mostert.  Were Mr Nel and Mr Mostert under your command?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is true.

MR DONAN: And Mr Mostert indecently assaulted her which you may or may not know about, do you know about that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: That she then says that she went into a room where she sat down and there was Mr Mostert, Mr Nel, a Mr Trollop - did you know a Mr Trollop?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I knew him, he served under me.

MR DONAN: And you.  You were all together and you questioned her about her personal life, do you remember that?