Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: Now, my learned friend Mr Booyens who represents the interests of the Security Policeman, Louis Botha, yesterday referred you to the evidence which you gave at the trial of Mbambo, one of the other applicants, Mkhize and Hlongwane.  Do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now, that trial, when you gave evidence there, that was during March of 1995, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So you had already entered the Witness Protection Programme before you gave evidence in that trial?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you had presumably provided a full disclosure of everything that you knew about the activities of Mbambo, Mkhize and Hlongwane to Mr Howard Vanni and other people, Colonel Dutton and any others that may have been involved in January of 1995, you had given a full disclosure before you gave evidence in the trail against them, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Is it correct and this will emerge from the record, I just want you to, from the documentation, isn't it so that you were called by the Prosecution to rebut the evidence given by Mbambo, Hlongwane and Mkhize in mitigation of sentence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't quite get your question.

MR HEWIT: You were called by the representative of the Attorney General, you were called by the Prosecutor in the case, weren't you, not by the Defence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: I am putting to you that you were called to show that all the reasons they gave as to why they committed the offences they were convicted of, namely political orders, you were called to show that that was not true.  Isn't that so?

MR STUART: Mr Chairman, if I might intervene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Stuart.

MR STUART: It seems to me to be unfair to ask the witness what the Prosecutor's intention was in calling him, it is not something that the witness can possibly have real knowledge of.  He might be able to draw some conclusions or have an opinion on, but he doesn't have any knowledge of what the Prosecutor's intention ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps, Mr Luthuli, do you know at what stage of the trial you gave evidence?  Did you give evidence after the accused persons in that trial, had been convicted, but before they were sentenced or did you give evidence prior to them being found guilty and convicted?  Do you know?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I cannot remember very well, but I think that was towards the end and also I stated as he is stating, this gentleman here, that when the said I should go and render my testimony, I don't want to do that because I don't want to be on the other side, on their side, rather than be on my side.

MR MOTATA: Mr Hewit, just before you proceed with your questioning, Mr Luthuli, when you were called by the Prosecution, did you volunteer to go there personally and testify at court?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Your Honour, if I am to state it here, because this is no secret, at the time I was residing or living in Denmark.
	I was called up urgently to the effect that the Attorney General wanted me to come and testify as a State witness against (indistinct) and I was not quite happy because I could not have been a State witness because it was myself who said they should do what they did, as they have done today, and  I didn't want to be the one to come back and oppress them.
	I cannot remember the details as to how I was pleaded with to finally agree to do what I did not want, having stated so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hewit.

MR HEWIT: I want to finally put it to you Mr Luthuli, that the various crimes which you have admitted you had committed, were not committed by virtue of any ideology which you held, or on the furtherance of any official political party policy.  What do you say to that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say the IFP President would not have spoken to the Boers and appealed to them to do or create the para-military wing for the IFP for him, if that had come from nowhere, because in his request indeed, there were people trained, 200 of them trained at Caprivi, and there were no politicians at that training.
	There was a politician rather speaking during those trainings and therefore I would not agree with the suggestion that this idea came from nowhere.

MR HEWIT: Well, no useful purpose will be served by debating with you whether such training was lawful or not, others have pronounced that it was per se lawful, so we will leave that there.
	I simply want to put it to you that the following persons, whose interests I represent, deny that they ever gave you instructions to carry out crimes or to act unlawfully.  Those persons are whom you have mentioned ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry can you take this quite slowly Mr Hewit, so we can just get the names down.

MR HEWIT: Those persons whom you have mentioned in your evidence as having participated or given you instructions or assisting you to commit these offences which you have admitted to, namely the following:  Mr M.Z. Khumalo, Mr Robert Mzimela, the person you referred to in this hearing as Prince Gideon Zulu, Brigadier Mzimela, Mrs Mbuyasi, Mr Bebebeyela, Major Langeni and Mr M.R. Mkhize and I am not too clear at this stage on whether you mentioned this particular person's name, but if you did, he equally denies any association along the lines that I have mentioned, namely Joyful Mthetwa.
	I think Mr Chairman that covers the names of the persons he mentioned in this trial, there were a lot of others, but they appear to be the ones that he mentioned whose interests I represent.
	I put it to you, those persons deny that they associated with you, participated with you or at any stage gave you instructions to commit any offences which we are dealing with now.  What is your comment?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me start off with M.Z. Khumalo.    Just to indicate to you that I know M.Z. Khumalo, he is the personal assistant to the IFP President, Dr M.G. Buthelezi, that was at the time.
	After scandals, his scandals, M.Z. Khumalo's scandals surfaced, scandals to the effect of the formation of (indistinct) by the Boers of the Special Branch, M.Z. Khumalo himself received instructions under the President of the IFP so that people can be trained at Caprivi.  He himself, requested me to do that, M.Z. Khumalo that is.
	Today I am just indicating to you that I know him.  Today M.Z. Khumalo is the Secretary General of the IFP, a promotion that he has received after his deeds and work with the Boers and therefore I know him very well.
	About R.M. Mkhize, I am referring to R.M. Mzimela, is that what you said?

MR HEWIT: I said Robert Mzimela.