Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

JUDGE WILSON: So all of you had enough clothing to last for 
some time?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you have given evidence that you 
cannot sleep even up to this day because of your 
participation in the killing of the children, which is still 
weighing heavily on your shoulders.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I was involved in several things 
which affected me, and at times I have to use sleeping 
tablets to be able to sleep.  These things affected me. I 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

SISI KHAMPEPE: 108

UNKNOWN: can't say it was only this case or another case.  Each and 
every time when you talk about these things it all comes 
back to you and then the whole thing starts afresh.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you feel when you received the payment 
of R6 000,00 from Mr Nortje, knowing that it was payment 
related to the killing of such children?

UNKNOWN: All of us received that, we all used it and I 
thought well, that's the way it worked and I used it, but I 
feel bad and I have remorse about the children.  As I said, 
at the start of my evidence, the way I tried to deal with 
this and to make it easier for me, I use the example of the 
Defence Force with cross-border operations and aerial 
attacks and in the course of which innocent children are 
also killed.  That's the way I try to explain it to myself 
or to justify it to myself, I don't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, 
please.  Capt Mentz, could we please go to page 23 of your 
application.  Could you please read the last paragraph.

UNKNOWN: I tried to make this application as detailed as 
possible.  Any further elaboration on the facts will be done 
during my testifying before the Commission.  Aspects such 
as, for instance, my motives and the objectives with which I 
pursued these acts will be more fully motivated during 
evidence.  Due to constraints of time I stand by the 
contents of this application.

UNKNOWN: Now Capt Mentz, since these applications 
were drafted, you have also talked about this with Marthinus 
Ras. Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 109

UNKNOWN: Have you spoken to any other people who 
were involved in this incident?

UNKNOWN: No, not one of them.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, the evidence which you have 
given about this incident here today, is that the truth?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is.

UNKNOWN: Is there any reason why you would lie to 
this Committee about the blowing up of the house or the 
blowing up of the shop or business complex? Is there any 
reason why you would want to tell a lie?

UNKNOWN: Not at all, Chairperson, that is why we are 
here.

UNKNOWN: Is there any benefit which you would derive 
from not telling the truth on that aspect?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson, if I don't tell the truth, I 
simply prejudice myself.

UNKNOWN: Are you satisfied that if the written 
portion of your application, if that does not set out the 
situation hundred per cent correctly, that you have now 
clarified the position before the Committee and that they 
have now heard the truth?

UNKNOWN: Yes, the questions put to me by the Committee 
have clarified this.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, there are some questions about 
previous applications and also this application.  Questions 
have been asked to yourself and other persons who were in 
subordinate positions and I would like to go into this in 
some detail to sketch the situation in the military context. 
 The South African police at that stage, especially in 
Vlakplaas, which operated like a military unit, I would like 
the Committee to understand the customs and the practices. 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 110

UNKNOWN: If a higher officer gives you an instruction during this 
period that we are now referring to, and I am specifically 
referring to this incident, would you have accepted that the 
instruction was given on the basis of information at the 
disposal of a senior officer?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And as I have already said, if De Kock gave 
you an instruction then I believed that it came from the 
general staff security police.

UNKNOWN: I never doubted De Kock's instructions. I 
believed it came from head office.

UNKNOWN: Is that how the system worked, Capt Mentz?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I never opposed De Kock or anything like 
that at that stage.

UNKNOWN: For instance, let us sketch the situation, 
I would like the Committee to understand this.  Could there 
have been a situation where you would meet and where the 
instructions were given and then the matter was discussed 
and then you would ask questions, you cross-examine the 
commanding officer to make sure that his information was 
correct.  Would that have been a possible scenario?

UNKNOWN: I don't know, nobody ever questioned De Kock in 
my presence.  We accepted that it came from head office. I 
never cross-questioned him.

UNKNOWN: And during your training, was that what you 
were taught, that instructions work in this way?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And during your training as a policeman were 
you not told to obey the law?

UNKNOWN: Yes, but these were different circumstances.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but you knew that this was not legal 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 111

UNKNOWN: actions done by policemen during the course of their duties, 
didn't you?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Capt Mentz, if, 
for instance, you were to launch your own enquiry as a 
result of this information or your own investigation, would 
it firstly have been possible for you in your position to 
get information from the informers in the Western Transvaal, 
acting on your own?

UNKNOWN: No, because then I would have had to say to 
them no, you wait, just wait, don't do anything, I am now 
going to get into my car, drive to Western Transvaal and I 
want to get insight into all these things.  It never 
happened and I couldn't do it.

UNKNOWN: What would your commanding officer's 
reactions have been if you had tried to do something like 
that?

UNKNOWN: That I didn't trust them or the security branch 
or the police.  They would have worked me out.   I would 
then have constituted a security risk for them.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, at that stage did you know 
about operations abroad done by the South African forces, 
Defence Force and Police?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were you at that stage aware of the fact 
that South African Defence Force operated in South West 
Africa and in Angola?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you know about the police unit Koevoet 
in South West Africa?

UNKNOWN: Yes.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 112

UNKNOWN: Did you know how they operated?

UNKNOWN: Yes, everything.

UNKNOWN: Did you accept that that was part of the 
Government's policy, do you think the Government knew about 
this?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did you accept that the Government 
approved of this?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chairperson, we were never called in and 
told stop your activities or anything like that, so I 
believed that that was proved under the policy of the 
National Party to combat terrorism.

UNKNOWN: And in that light, in that context, the 
instruction which you received about this incident, did you 
consider this to be part of that context?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you regard it as justified in the 
circumstances?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you regard it as an instruction from 
head office?

UNKNOWN: Yes, as I have said earlier, yes.

UNKNOWN: And Capt Mentz, your own subjective view 
about this matter, what were your views about the people in 
commanding positions at head office, who would have given 
these instructions and their knowledge of the operation?

UNKNOWN: I believed that the instructions came from 
them, they approved them and that was why it was carried 
out, and that it was done with the approval of the National 
Party.