Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

MR WILLS: Now just in response to your evidence about Jimmy going back to the house on a couple of occasions, I just want to put it to you that the deceased was the only person who stayed in that home and that after - when she left to go to the meeting that was planned with Jimmy that day, she locked the house and she gave the key to her neighbour and nobody else was in that house, there were no family members living in that house afterwards.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was my knowledge Chairperson, that she lived with some people in that house.

MR WILLS: Are you aware that approximately within a month
of her disappearance that she was picked up for questioning by what she related to be members of the Security Branch and returned?

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just repeat that, I missed it Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Are you aware that within a month of her disappearance, she was picked up at her home by members of what she described as the Security Branch and returned later on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the neighbour now?

MR WILLS: Sorry, I'm referring to the deceased.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was before her arrest, a month before her arrest?

MR WILLS: Within a month of her disappearance.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the deceased within a month of her disappearance - what disappearance?

MR WILLS: Well, ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Your mike, Mr Wills, we can't hear you.

MR WILLS: Sorry,  She left the home and she didn't return and she disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: The home near Bambayi?

MR WILLS: Yes, the home she was residing in, yes.  She left - My instructions are to the effect that she left her home on the pretext that she had arranged a meeting with some people whom she presumed were her comrades and she left the key to the home with the neighbour and she never returned and we know why she didn't return, because she died whilst in your care.  What I'm suggesting now, what my instructions are now are that prior to her leaving that home on that day, and we're not sure exactly what that day was, we presume it was the 25th of May, but we're not 100% sure either, but prior to that, within a month of that period, she was picked up by policemen, described as Security Policemen and questioned and returned to her house.  Are you aware of this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I don't know about that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, I put it to you finally, Mr Botha, that what actually occurred on that day was that you did infiltrate her operations, it's true that she was associated with the liberation struggle, that shortly after her infiltration she did become suspicious.  The evidence of Radebe is clear in that regard and that as a result of her becoming suspicious, in order for your operation not to be blown, you specifically ordered for her to be picked up and this order was complied with and you specifically interrogated her and in order that your operations were not disclosed, you intentionally murdered her and you I refer to in the plural sense.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is not correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.  Ms Thabethe do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MS THABETHE: Just one aspect Mr Chair, thank you.

MS THABETHE: Mr Botha, I want to follow up the aspect of when her body was taken to the car and was dumped, according to your evidence, at Bambayi.  I want to know, were you there in the car that took her to dispose her body?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I was not.

MS THABETHE: So how did it come about that you know that her body was dumped at Bambayi?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I was informed by du Preez the following morning.

MS THABETHE: Was du Preez present amongst the people who went to dump the body?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I asked him and Wasserman to get rid of the body.

MS THABETHE: And you've indicated that Mr du Preez informed you that they dropped the body at Bambayi?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence was that it was in the vicinity of Bambayi.

MS THABETHE: What I wanted to find out is, maybe did he give more details as to where about the body was dumped exactly, was it on a road, was it near a house, did he give the exact location of where the body was dumped?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, the exact detail of where the body was disposed of, it was just referred to in general.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser do you have an re-examination?

MR VISSER: May I do so, Mr Chairman?

MR SAMUEL: Before Mr Visser re-examines, may I interpose at this stage?  Arising out of certain evidence, I have taken instructions on certain aspects, may I put my client's version to the witness, so it will have some ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes Mr Samuel and then Mr Visser can re-examine after that.

MR SAMUEL: I am indebted, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Botha, Jimmy my client will say that the reason why you asked for Nthombi to be brought to you was that he had informed you that Nthombi was becoming suspicious about the two persons that she had requested him to find safe-houses for and she had also informed him that the Commander of those two persons was in Durban and he wanted to see them and this was reported to you by Jimmy, because those people, as we know, were killed and you had then advised him to bring Nthombi to you, I suppose for the specific reason that you wanted to dispose of her.  Do you have any comment on that, Sir?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The version as given is not correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: He will further say that no mention was made to him or to Mr Radebe that Nthombi should bring any leaders of the ANC to yourself.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is not correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: In your evidence you stated that Jimmy was  sent on two occasions to Nthombi's house to find out what was the position, whether the family became aware of her death and he had reported to you that the family had said or somebody had said that she is with her boys.  Jimmy will deny this and say that he had never gone, after her death, to Nthombi's house.  Have you got anything to say about that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We know that the instruction was given to him and the feedback which he gave to me is as I have testified already, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Would you know who gave him that instruction to go to Nthombi's house, Sir?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was I and Capt Baker.

MR SAMUEL: He will further state that he had telephoned a number that was given to him by Nthombi and he had - in fact in regard to the telephone call, he had borrowed or was given R1 by Mr Radebe to make that telephone call to ascertain whether the family knew about her disappearance or death.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot confirm it, Chairperson, I was not there.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Samuel, can I just be clear on this?  Is it averred by Mr Mbane that the way in which he ascertained her suspected disappearance or otherwise and the family's understanding of that fact, was to phone somewhere?  Where exactly is he suggesting he phoned?

MR SAMUEL: That is the position, that is the evidence that my client will lead, but in regard to where exactly he phoned, all he knows is that he was given a contact number by Nthombi, prior to this date.  I suppose it's a neighbour's house or something.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Samuel, are you saying that he phoned that number and then gave the report back about she's gone off to visit her boys?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, Chair.

MR SAMUEL: No further submissions, or questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, any re-examination?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman..