Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-08-01

MR WILLS: Then what did you do further, after that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: After that we decided that we should attack our attackers.

MR WILLS: Why did you make that decision?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It was because we realised that if we sit back and do nothing, we fold our hands we might be attacked again.

MR WILLS: Now in relation to the attack on your house, how long was it before the actual incident in respect of which you're applying for amnesty, when you attacked your attackers?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: After a day, having reported the matter to the police we realised that the police aren't doing anything and we decided that we should attack.

MR WILLS: Did you tell the police the names of the persons who were responsible for the attack on your home?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: We didn't give them names of the people who attacked.

MR WILLS: Why not?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It was because I believe that the police were working in collaboration with the IFP people therefore we didn't see any reason to go around and giving them the names of the people who attacked us.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you expect them to do anything if you did not tell them the people you knew had attacked you?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It was because the police didn't even insist on more information with regard to that attack.

MR WILLS: Okay, if you can tell the court - sorry - the Committee, you've indicated that you planned an attack, tell the Committee exactly what happened from the time you left your home.

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: We grouped together with the other members of the ANC and we discussed and agreed that if we sit down and do nothing they're going to come back and attack us, therefore we decided that we should go to their area in that particular area and started attacking.

MR WILLS: No tell us, who were the ANC members with you?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It was myself, Sipho Gomede, Tulani Mthembu and Sebusiso.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes certainly, I have them here.  It is Tulani Mthembu, Sipho Gomede and a certain Sebusiso.  Is it correct that you cannot remember the surname of  Sebusiso?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I don't remember the surname.

MR WILLS: Now whose kraal did you attack?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Mr Mthembu's place.

MR WILLS: This is the same Mthembu who you referred to earlier who was present in the attack on your kraal, is that correct?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, it's the very same Mthembu I mentioned.

MR WILLS: Now tell us what happened during that attack, what time did you leave your house and tell us the circumstances how you killed these people?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: We left home at about 7 o'clock ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who left home?  I want to know precisely who went with you.

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: It was myself, Tulani, Sipho and Sebusiso.  We went to Mthembu's house and we attacked the house.  Mr Mthembu tried to run away and we couldn't reach him.  After that we left the place and we killed three women.

MR WILLS: So did you say Mr Mthembu ran away?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, he managed to escape.

MR WILLS: Now were there other males at the kraal at the time?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: He was alone at his home.

MR WILLS: Now these women that you've admitted to have killed, were they at the kraal?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Yes, they were in.

MR WILLS: Now tell us, how did you kill these women?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: I killed these women with a knife.  One of them that I killed died right inside the house wearing an IFP T-shirt and we tried to run after the others by the help of Tulani and the other comrades, we ran and we outran them and we caught them and I stabbed them.

CHAIRPERSON: So the other comrades who were with you, the three people you have named participated in the killing of these women, the women would have seen them?  Is that what you are telling us?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: These women were killed by my hand.  The comrades who were in my company only helped me to run until we reached and caught them and then I killed them.

CHAIRPERSON: The comrades were there you've told us, the comrades helped you to run and reach them so they were there when the women were killed, is that what you are saying?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now why did you kill these women?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: The reason why I killed them was because since I found them in Mr Mthembu's house, they were IFP members.

MR WILLS: You killed them very brutally.  The Chairperson has indicated that there were multiple stab wounds and you've also indicated that you were the responsible person, why did you act so brutally?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: At that time I wasn't in the human sense because my mind was confused when all this was happening.

MR WILLS: Now I've been through the papers in respect of your trial in this matter and I see that there are confessions made to a Magistrate and there are, there's a Judgement which infers that there's nothing to do with an attack in the incident, in the killing incident, can  you explain that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: When I gave my statement I didn't like to mention a lot of things as to what I did during the attack because I was afraid that if I give all the relevant facts I will be suppressed as an ANC member.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the alleged confession?

MR WILLS: I'm referring to the documentation - sorry I might have used the word loosely and for that I apologize but I'm referring to the information that comes from Page 4, 5, 6 and 7 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: All that is a record of proceedings in the Magistrate's Court.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that it his plea to the charges when they were put to him.

MR WILLS: Well that's why I refer to it as a confession.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not a confession, it's a plea.

MR WILLS: I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And his explanation about not giving all relevant facts might be somewhat different if it was a confession or a plea.  This is the plea he was giving the Magistrate.

MR WILLS: Yes, I apologize for the use of that terminology.  Sorry Mr Mbuyazi, you pleaded to the Magistrate and you indicated that this incident occurred as a result of you defending yourself over some fight of a radio, very loosely, can you explain why you said that to the Magistrate?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: The statement that I gave before the Court and the Magistrate wasn't true because I was afraid that if I tell the whole truth as an ANC member, they can use that against me.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you admitted to committing various murders, didn't you think that would be used against you?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Will you please repeat that for me?

CHAIRPERSON: If you admitted killing people, murdering, stabbing them to death, don't you think that could be you used against you because in the document your council is referring to, you admit in some detail how you stabbed each and every one of these people including the baby on the mother's back, do you remember that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: It was yes, I remember that.

MR WILLS: Also Mr Mbuyazi, I have the opportunity this morning of going through the judgement that Mr Justice Broom gave at your trial and as I say, it appears from that judgement that the motivation or the circumstances surrounding your attack on these women do not appear to be related to a general attack on the kraal at all, what do you say about that?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: As you do explain I attacked the Mthembu family, that's where I killed one of the women who died inside the house and the others ran away and we followed them, we caught them and I killed them.  I didn't kill them inside the house I killed them outside.

MR WILLS: Now if these women are to come and testify before this Committee and say that the motivation, your motivation for the attack was for a personal gain where you wanted a reward for finding a radio, what will you say about the evidence?

BHEKI F MBUYAZI: That won't be true.