Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

VOICE SAMBO: There was one white policeman who was from Nelspruit who used to visit my house, I don't know his name, I've forgotten that, and another guy who was from Matzulu Township, an African guy, they used to come to my place to recruit me.   At first they said there was a company from America which wanted to open companies at Nkomaze area, they wanted me to collect information for them about the situation in that area, so that when these people or the investors who were about to come from America would be assured that their companies will be safe in that area.

MR BLACK: Okay, Mr Sambo... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, what is the relevance of this evidence?   It is contained... (intervention).

MR BLACK: I was just... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...in your papers... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: ...it appears on paragraph 9.

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Even when reading the papers, I couldn't see the relevance of that piece of evidence... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Well, with respect... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...even to show the political context in which the offence ultimately was committed.

MR BLACK: Yes.   Well it transpires that they were a front for the security police, he was offered, that's the bribe that he was offered to be recruited and he refused.   That's why he's trying to explain that he found out that they were incorrect.   But if I may just lead the witness then please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do so, Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Mr Sambo, we've already put this in your affidavit.   As far as this company that you claim, you say that two policemen came to recruit you, is that correct?

VOICE SAMBO: That's correct.

MR BLACK: So the money that they were offering to you was offered to you by policemen not by company representatives?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: So that was an attempt to recruit you to work for the security police?

VOICE SAMBO: That's correct.

MR BLACK: Right.   Now you refused that, and that is the point that we're getting at, after you refused to co-operate with the security police, and after they'd attempted to recruit you, what then happened to you and your family, and I don't want you to go into every detail that is not already on the papers.   We have gone there, the two, Ngwenya and Venter security forces came to your house and they started harassing you, demanding that they search for ANC weapons?

VOICE SAMBO: What I would like to ask from the chairperson, so that whatever I have to say will be straight, I'll need the chairperson to give me time to explain exactly what happened, because what happened happened to me, I know every little detail about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I respond to your request, Mr Sambo?   We are here to hear your application for amnesty for the murder of Mr Van der Spuy, the deceased, and attempted murder of Mr O'Farrell and of preventing them from carrying out their duties on the 29th of October 1992, and also of being found to be in unlawful possession of a firearm, one 9mm pistol and the ammunition in respect of that firearm.   We understand the harassment that you were subject to prior to the commission of the offences for which you are seeking amnesty.   You have attempted to explain that harassment to us by way of an affidavit.   We already have that information before us.   What is important for us, in order to decide whether you must be granted amnesty or not, is for you to explain the circumstances surrounding the offences for which you are seeking amnesty.   We are not trying to prevent you from taking this committee into your confidence by explaining the facts around which the offences were committed, we want to hear you on those facts, that is the evidence that we would like to hear.   We, however, are reluctant to allow you to elaborate on what happened about your military training, because it does not impinge on the offences for which amnesty is being sought.   I hope I have made myself well understood.   We are not being insensitive to your needs, it is because of our sensitivity that we would like to confine you to what is relevant for us to decide.   You may then proceed to give your evidence in relation to the offences for which you are seeking amnesty.  Anything that your advocate deems it relevant will obviously, as it is his job to do, bring that to your attention and will lead you in your evidence in chief in respect of that evidence.    Don't be intimidated by our intimation of not wanting to hear anything irrelevant.   It is just to make our jobs easier.   You are aware that this is a committee which has a very short lifespan and we are trying to make sure that we do not waste any time unduly.  We hope you will appreciate our difficulties.

MR BLACK: Okay, Mr Sambo, let me go further.   You have set out in your affidavit in some detail certain paragraphs.   You've dealt with the harassment that you've had, the incidents, this was done by the security police, do you confirm that, it was as a direct consequence of your refusal to work with the police?

CHAIRPERSON: That has been confirmed, Mr Black... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: ...why do you want him to repeat himself?

MR BLACK: Because I just want to put it in context.   Apart from the references that you've made in this affidavit, could you tell the committee, just prior to this shooting that took place in October 1992, what happened to Sweetie Sambo, what are the circumstances and who was he?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the last part, Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood it, you wanted him to explain the circumstances which happened... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...surrounding one Sweetie Sambo prior to the commission of this offence... (intervention).

MR BLACK: That's so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...and you wanted him further to explain who was Sweetie Sambo?

MR BLACK: Right.

VOICE SAMBO: Sweetie Sambo, Johannes, is my brother.   From my house where I'm staying to his place, I think it's 700 metres approximately, or between 700 and 800 metres.   His house was on the left-hand side of the road when you're facing to that direction.   He was a member of the African National Congress.   I recruited him.   Because I had a car, most of the time I will be with him in my car.   Sweetie Sambo also had a problem.   His house was also searched.   One day, since the police were usually coming to his house and raiding his house, the security branch especially, Sweetie was stolen in front of his children and wife, abducted, and we still don't know where he is today.

MR BLACK: Now, did they take any photographs of this man, did the security police ever have any photographs of Sweetie, and where did they get them?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, as I've already explained that police used to come to my house either twice a week or once a week, white policemen will come to my house and they've stolen Sweetie's photograph, this photograph it was me and Sweetie.  I was wearing soldier's clothes or uniform in those photographs and security branch stole these photographs, that's when we lost Sweetie Sambo, or when he was abducted, after they've stolen the photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he disappear?

VOICE SAMBO: Late 1991, if not early 1992, I'm not certain of the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it late 1991 or early 1992, you are saying it's both late 1991 and 1992?

VOICE SAMBO: I'm not certain, I didn't write this thing down, but I have, in my memory I have this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's why we are going to rely on you to give us the testimony that we can rely on, and I will repeat my question again, did this happen in late 1991 or late 1992, or early 1992?

VOICE SAMBO: I think it was in 1991, 1992, late 1991.   Now I remember, it's late '91.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Proceed, Mr Black.