Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.  I was just asked telephonically by a senior reporter of City Press by the name Jimmy Sihepe who originally hails from the The New Nation and he was asking me about my view about this informer story and my true statement was that there was no informer that was used to lure out the PEBCO 3, the police used another policeman with an English accent to lure these people out.
	Now they are claiming that it is an informer so that the people must start suspecting each other.  It's the same old dirty tactic of setting blacks up against other black people, to suspect each other, to kill each other for nothing.  
	That man is still a security police force today I suppose and he's holding a very senior position.  And these people are afraid to identify him because he will tell the truth, he will tell it all because he's still a member of the South African police force and I believe he is still giving them information, he's still helping them.

MR NYOKA: You mentioned his name to the City Press, are you willing to do so now?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I said the name of the person who phoned, who Tosamele promised this people will phone, it was a certain Mr Charlton from the British Embassy.  It is not the name of the man who phoned.  I don't know for a fact who phoned but I know for a fact that Niewoudt told us that one of his white security force with an English accent is the one who phoned these people to lure them out.
	I don't believe for a moment that people belonging to the same organisation cannot hear the voice of one of them who pretends to be somebody else.  Right now I'm not your friend but if I phone you and pretend to somebody else, you will hear this is Mamasela's voice because who, you spoke to me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to stop you there Mr Mamasela, really I'm going to stop you there.  We are not busy with any evidence at all.
	Maybe what you could comment on, if you haven't, is the evidence given by one of the applicants, that the information came from one of them, one of the members of the Port Elizabeth Civic Organisation.  You can only restrict your comment to that.

MR NYOKA: Can you comment about that?  Is it so or not?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it's definitely not so.

MR NYOKA: In closing Mr Mamasela, one of my clients Mrs Godolozi is not here, the wife of Mr Godolzi, she has conveyed a message to me to you that she's not present because she's fedup of lies of the applicants and all she wants is her husband back.  What do you want me to say to her about your involvement in the killing?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I will want you to just convey my deepest condolences to her and that I also believe like she believes that the truth is not yet out, the people don't want to tell the truth.  They are not here to tell the truth, they are here to apply for amnesty and not to tell the truth, that's all.

MR NYOKA: And Mrs Hashe and Mrs Galela who are present say that I must say that they accept your explanation and will accept your apology because you have spontaneously. They understand that is was very difficult situation of kill, killed, life and death and that unlike other applicants you came forward, you did not apply for amnesty, you did not hide like other killers who are still in hiding.  What would you say to them who are present?

JOE MAMASELA: I will just say deeply from the bottom of my heart that this to me is a glorious opportunity, for me to say to them: "Thank you and thank you very much for at least understanding.  I appreciate your understanding.  It's a God divine for them to can have such understanding after all what happened to their loved ones and to me this is a ...[indistinct] experience".  And I would like to also extend my humble apologies to everyone, each and everyone who is here because I see each and every black person as a victim.

MR NYOKA: Finally, you have indicated informally before you testified that you would like to go further than an apology and do something extra, would you like to share that with us, to them?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.  I believe, I don't just believe in national reconciliation, it's a good thing.  I don't just believe in that only.  National reconciliation without atonement is meaningless.
	I believe that as a perpetrator who was made a perpetrator against my will, against my political convictions, I must go an extra mile to atone both in kind like I'm doing now, testifying on behalf of, with the victims and also to testify in cash that I will like to, whatever little money that I have, to share it with the victims and I definitely appreciate it if they can accept the peanuts that I will offer them.

MR NYOKA: Thank you very much, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Hartle?

MS HARTLE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  For the record, I represent Mesdames Benedicte and Nombeko Edith Godolozi, the mother and granddaughter respectively of the late Xhaxhule Godolozi.
	Mr Mamasela, is it correct that you are here only because a subpoena was served on you to come and testify before the Commission?

JOE MAMASELA: With due respect, I don't recall receiving any subpoena.  I was never subpoenaed to be here, I was sent a notice, an ordinary notice that I should appear here.  There's no subpoena that was served on me to be here.

MS HARTLE: If I can ask you this, if you had a choice would you still have come to testify before the Committee?

JOE MAMASELA: Without any problems.  I've been assisting the TRC ever since it's inception and today is not a different day.  I said today is not a different day for me, I've been doing it, it's my habit to do it, to help, to assist where I possibly can.

MS HARTLE: And is there any reason why you were not able or did not come to testify at the Roelof Venter application in relation to the PEBCO 3?

JOE MAMASELA: If I recall well, I was never invited to come.

MS HARTLE: If you had been invited, was it open for you to come?

JOE MAMASELA: I would definitely have come, with the permission of the Attorney General, yes.

MS HARTLE: And if I put it to you that the Attorney General was not happy with you testifying?

JOE MAMASELA: He had his own reasons, his own legal reasons which I'm not familiar with the legalistic world.

MS HARTLE: When is it you say that you came out, when did you first go to the Attorney General with the information relating to the PEBCO 3?

JOE MAMASELA: Some time late in 1994.

MS HARTLE: And were your meetings with the Attorney General of this Province or Gauteng?

JOE MAMASELA: There were at Gauteng.

MS HARTLE: Is there any reason why no criminal prosecutions have ensued as a result of the information that you have given the Attorney General?

JOE MAMASELA: The only hickup that - I may say it under correction of course, the only hickup that was portrayed to me by the Attorney General was that, like in the case of Mr Mxhenge, they went to, at pains to prosecute the perpetrators and once - spending a lot of tax payers' money and once the perpetrators were prosecuted, the TRC granted those people indemnity.
	So they said it's better to withhold all other cases so that the TRC must indemnify whoever they want to indemnity and whoever is not indemnified then, can be prosecuted by the Attorney General.  The dockets and everything is still there, they said they are just waiting for the TRC to - they don't want to interfere with the function of the TRC.  That is the reason in my opinion.

MS HARTLE: Mr Mamasela, when were the victims identified to you as the three persons who were required to be eliminated?

JOE MAMASELA: On the 8th of May 195 at Port Elizabeth police station when we were given their photos and we were told and briefed about them.

MS HARTLE: And who did you say was present at that particular briefing?