Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

MR BERGER: I saw Mr Vanana Zulu having a long conversation at the foot of the stage, are you aware of that?

MR MTHEMBU: At the stairs?

MR BERGER: Yes, just after the adjournment, Mr Vanana Zulu came up to where you and all the applicants were sitting and had a conversation.

MR MTHEMBU: Maybe you saw somebody else.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that you have had no conversation with Mr Vanana Zulu today?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, he has just told us that during the tea adjournment he spoke to Mr Zulu, you can put that question.  If you want to find out whether there was a discussion with Mr Zulu inside the hall, that's probably the way you should put it unless you want to make a distinction between just greeting and a conversation.

MR BERGER: Well that was my understanding.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.
	Do you understand the question?

MR MTHEMBU: I understand the question that Mr Berger is asking but he is not satisfied with my response and I do not know how to respond to his question so that he is satisfied.

MR BERGER: Then I'll be more specific.  Other than Mr Vanana Zulu greeting you, you have not had any other conversation with Mr Vanana Zulu today?

MR MTHEMBU: Because of the short time that we have and because I had to speak to the other people as well, I did not speak to him for long.  The mere fact that he greeted me means something to me.

MR BERGER: Besides the greeting, what else did Mr Vanana Zulu say to you either inside the hall or outside the hall?

MR MTHEMBU: There is nothing that he said to me.  I did not see him in the hall but he spoke to me at the basement.

MR MALINDI: Mr Chairman, may I pose just one question?
	Mr Mthembu, you also said on Tuesday when you arrived you saw him in the basement, did he speak to you on Tuesday?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, he did speak to me.

MR MALINDI: Did you have a lengthy discussion?

MR MTHEMBU: We did not speak for long because there are some of my co-accused whom I haven't seen for a long time, therefore I have to speak to each and everyone of them and I cannot concentrate on one person.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Thank you.
	Let me go back to this affidavit.  I'm sorry there is something else I have to put to you about Mr Vanana Zulu.  You said that Mr Vanana Zulu was not part of the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: How do you know that?

MR MTHEMBU: I know because he was not there, he had gone home.

MR BERGER: How do you know that?  Did he tell you that before he left: "I'm going home"?

MR MTHEMBU: He did not tell me but I saw him when he left in the car.

MR BERGER: When did he leave the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Although I cannot specify the time, but it was on a Wednesday afternoon.

MR BERGER: On Wednesday the 17th of June 1992?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: So you're saying he left the hostel a few hours before the attack started?

MR MTHEMBU: As I've just explained he left in the afternoon.

MR BERGER: And where did he go?  You say to his family, my question is: "Where"?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you opt, when you want to move onto the next point would you just indicate as there's a matte that I just want to raise, thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I asked you a question.

MR MTHEMBU: He went home.

MR BERGER: My question is, where was his home?

MR MTHEMBU: That's Nongoma in KwaZulu Natal.

MR BERGER: Did he tell you: "I'm going home to Nongoma"?

MR MTHEMBU: He did not tell me that he was going to Nongoma, but what I know is that if a person uses these taxis to Nongoma, he must be going home.

MR BERGER: But you never saw him using a taxi did you, you saw him leaving in his car?

MR MTHEMBU: These taxis to Nongoma park outside the hostel so when he got into one I knew that he must be going home.

MR BERGER: No, you told the Committee that he got into his car and left the hostel that Wednesday afternoon.

MR MTHEMBU: I do not understand what you mean.  I meant that he got into the taxi, the car that I was talking about.

MR BERGER: Why did you then tell the Committee that he got into his car and drove away from the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not say that he got into his car, I am only hearing it from you that he has his own car.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that Mr Vanana Zulu has family in Boipatong or had family in Boipatong at that time?

MR MTHEMBU: At what time?

MR BERGER: June 1992.

MR MTHEMBU: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that Mr Vanana Zulu was involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no comment on that.

MR BERGER: I can tell you that there is a witness who can say that he was in Boipatong that night, in fact he went into a house which was occupied by one of his co-workers at Iscor and the owner of the house said: "Why are you coming to kill me", and Vanana Zulu left that house.  You are absolutely certain that Vanana Zulu wasn't in Boipatong that night?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I am certain.

MR BERGER: He wasn't at the stadium and he wasn't part of the attacking group, of that you are certain?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I did not see him.

MR BERGER: Who then was in control of the guns at Kwamadala Hostel when Vanana Zulu wasn't there?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not know who was responsible for that Sir.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps at this point you would care to clear up that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
	Mr Vanana Zulu, would you please stand up Sir.  
MR VANANA ZULU STANDS UP

CHAIRPERSON: To the extent that there may be allegations made in these proceedings against you, you have the right to be present at these hearings and to dispute any such allegations that are made against you and if you so wish, to engage a legal representative to represent you.  Do you understand those rights?

MR ZULU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, if I might come in here.  I am under the understanding - a number of notices have been sent to the IFP of implicated persons, I have been brought under the understanding that Mr Frederich, the representatives there on the other side are handling a watching brief for these persons.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we would like to clarify this with Mr Vanana Zulu.  For that purpose we would seek a short adjournment or we can resolve the situation after the adjournment at half past one but if it's important, if the Chairperson feels that we must sort it out now, I would ask for a short adjournment to sort it out now.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is, so that if we do proceed we are at least assured that if Mr Zulu desires to be legally represented there is at least someone to look after his interests.

MR BERGER: I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We will take a very short adjournment of about five minutes and then we will return to the hall to enable counsel to take instructions, if any from Mr Zulu as to his desire or otherwise to be represented, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

VICTOR MTHEMBU: (s.u.o.)

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, my attorney has been instructed to appear on behalf of Mr Vanana Zulu, to look after his interests as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zulu, you do confirm that do you?  Mr Zulu you do confirm that you now are legally represented in these proceedings?  We have been told that you are now represented.   Yes, thank you very much.
	Thank you Mr Strydom.
	Mr Berger, would you proceed please.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, following on from what was said just before the adjournment, if Mr Strydom and his attorney have a watching brief for the IFP and for other implicated persons, I would ask on behalf of the victims that that be disclosed to the Committee and that the names of the people on whose behalf there is a watching brief be disclosed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we've been instructed to carry a watching brief for the IFP as well as members of the IFP possibly implicated in this matter.