Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

LC KAMANA: So that Gqozo cannot be able to channel their instructions, in other words so that he cannot be able to have somebody to issue instructions on.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The evidence which has been led thus far, suggests that I know I asked this Mr Chairman, but not properly, I just want to put it to the witness, the evidence that has been led thus far suggests that a name of the Officer was announced that an Officer has committed this and this and then it would be announced that that Officer should be fetched, what are you saying to that?

LC KAMANA: I cannot dispute that.  Maybe some of them were fetched due to their specific reasons or some of them had been fetched because they had to be there.  The Police stations were not locked at that time, there were Police who were in the offices.  Some of them we couldn't find in their houses, so they were not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: A colleague of yours, Mr Chairman, may I just - thank you Mr Chairman.  A colleague of yours, one Tyali, testified that the name of Sawuti was announced over the loudhailer that he must be fetched, what are you saying to that?

LC KAMANA: I wouldn't dispute that, maybe he heard that.  I didn't hear that.  I was outside and then I met Inspector Tyali at the gate, at Captain Sawuti's, so we were all there, but we didn't go to that house at the same time.  We were from Mr Ndileka's and then we met at Captain Sawuti's gate with them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to my instructions, in all that process of fetching the Officers, the Officers were being antagonised by the people who fetched them, amongst others yourself.

LC KAMANA: If there was a person who was not treated well when he was fetched, we ask for forgiveness for that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What I want to put to you is that you are not telling the truth because if the Officers who were fetched, were fetched for the purposes of unifying the Police, they would not have been antagonised by yourselves, passing silly remarks if you wanted unity and the purpose of the unity was to oust Brigadier Gqozo.

LC KAMANA: Because they were the senior Officers, they were not aware of what was happening to us, the people who were feeling the pain of the time.    Maybe they would see the pamphlets and ignore them, but we would see the pamphlets and we would feel the pain.  We would acknowledge what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but what I am putting to you is that you antagonised the Officers, therefore the purpose could not have been to unite the Police?  What are you saying to that?  I am talking about the 22nd now of March.

LC KAMANA: If the Officers were antagonised, I think that one of the reasons is because they didn't see that we needed change, they were satisfied about what was happening, so the change that we as junior Officers wanted and maybe some of them that were for change, maybe they were against change, they wanted to stay, they wanted the situation to remain like that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I understand clearly what you are saying, but what I am putting to you is that whilst you people wanted change, but you did not, your actions did not unify the Police, all you did was to antagonise the Officers and by doing that, you were not hoping to achieve the ousting of Mr Gqozo?

LC KAMANA: Our aim was to remove Brigadier Gqozo, if there was a person who was treated badly, we ask for forgiveness for that, that was not planned.  I am sure it was emotions on those particular individuals.  I wouldn't dispute that people were not treated well, maybe that happened, maybe that one isolated case.  I wouldn't deny that, but if there is such a thing that happened, we ask forgiveness for that, but our main aim was to remove Brigadier Gqozo from office.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And my further instructions are that you have not told the Commission the exact events of the day.  You have been untruthful to say the least.  What are you saying to that?

LC KAMANA: I have told the Commission exactly what I know, what happened in front of my eyes on that particular day.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Any questions Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Has the panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR OBOSE: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kamana, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We are just going to take a short adjournment, we will adjourn for 15 minutes exactly.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS