Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: No, I can accept that, or understand it, but the point is that you shot a number of shots into his chest.  Why did other people have to shoot him as well?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It is because they were victims of harassment.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you don't understand my question.  Why was it necessary for Muchacho and for Buthelezi to also shoot at the deceased?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Maybe they can respond to that question themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you give the firearm to Mzwake?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I did not give them, but Mzwake took the firearm.  It's not that I gave them the firearm.

MR SHANE: Did you, after firing your shots, did you tell Mzwake or Muchacho that they should also shoot the deceased, or did you not say anything?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I did not tell them to do it.

MR SHANE: So is it correct that you had absolutely no control over their actions whatsoever?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Mr Shane.
	Mr Mbatha, after you shot the deceased, did he die immediately, or was he still alive when Mzwake took the firearm?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I did not look at him, but I know that he later died.  But I'm not sure what bullet killed him, but I know that he later died.

MR SIBANYONI: But after you shot at him, did he fall down immediately, or was he still standing?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: He fell.  He looked like someone who was trying to stand up.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR SHANE: Sir do you think that you had any other alternative in doing what you were doing?  In other words, did you have a choice of not shooting the deceased?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I did not have an alternative.  I was forced to do it.

MR SHANE: Yes, now can you explain that.  Who forced you?  Were you given orders?  Can you explain what you've just said a bit more?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The things, their actions, things that they used to do at Penduka section.  As I've already explained that he used to drive the taxis, IFP taxis.  He was also an IFP member, and IFP members used to harass people.  Because they also killed parents of one of our comrades, and even today we don't even know who those people were, but we only know that they were IFP members.

MR SHANE: Did you have any general orders from the commanders of the Self-Defence Units to kill IFP members and informers and drivers?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: We knew the targets, we knew the perpetrators of violence, because we were staying at that same, same area that was next to the hostel.  We wouldn't wait for the orders.  Everyone would see, everyone could see the perpetrators.  We knew, all the people who ran away from Penduka section, we knew the perpetrators.  We knew the IFP members.

MR SHANE: Was there a general order from your commanders in the Self-Defence Unit, that IFP members should be killed?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: After running away from that section were fighting, all of us, we were fighting the IFP.  No-one commanded anything.

MR SHANE: Is there anything else that you might have left out, that you haven't told this Committee?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Are you talking about this incident, things that are connected to this incident?

MR SHANE: That is correct.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: There is nothing else.

MR SHANE: I don't believe the families of the victim, Beki Khanyile, are present, but can you say now, after this is all finished, what do you feel about what you did to Beki Khanyile?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: What I did, I feel very bad about this incident, but I did not have an alternative.  I had no choice.  There was nothing else to do.  I feel sorry.

MR SHANE: Now, if I might just mention this, we are coming to another situation where the party that you support, the African National Congress, is fighting and election and fighting against the IFP this year.  Can this happen - do you think this can happen again, for this election that is coming?

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Shane, just so that I can understand the question ...(intervention)

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No, we are at peace now, that will never happen again.

MR SHANE: That is evidence Mr Chairman.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if you would allow me one question to the applicant.  Mr Mbatha, maybe I have missed it, but can you tell us what happened to the body of Mr Khanyile?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Will you please repeat the question.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know what happened to the body of the deceased after he was killed?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: We dispersed after the shooting.

ADV STEENKAMP: Because according to your application -Mr Chairman I'm referring you to page 59, paragraph 4, this is now point number 2, Mr Chairman.
	I will read for you:
"...IFP driver shot with an AK-47 and burnt"
And if you page to page 61, with all respect Mr Chairman, the last paragraph, starting with Beki, four lines down:
"...some decided to kill him.  He was burnt, as a lesson."
The reason I'm asking you is because you mentioned this in your application.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: After the shooting we dispersed.  Maybe the other comrades who were there after the killing did that.  That is Ernest and Muchacho.  I did not go back to the scene.  I last saw him after the shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know - let me put it this way, as is contained in your application, is it true that his body was burned?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: That is the information that I got later.

CHAIRPERSON: So you heard that this had happened?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That's all, thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Judge.  Mr Mbatha, just a bit of clarity on one or two points.  You joined the SDU in 1992.  Can you try and work out very roughly for us, just to estimate, whether this incident occurred in 1992, which is the year you joined, or the following year, in 1993.  Just can you attempt to do that?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I need time to think about it.  I cannot remember.

ADV GCABASHE: You see, on page 59, the note here under 9.A.2 says the date's December 1993 and in brackets
"...both attacked on the same day."
Now, think about this.  December 1993.  1994 was the election year.  Would this have been an accurate recollection?  Just help us through that.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes before the elections was in 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: So are you saying, what's written on this form, December 1993, having thought about it right now, is more or less accurate?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that could be accurate, if my memory serves me well.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, your house in Tambo Slovo, the house that you were forced to move out of, where exactly was that house?  Just give us the nearest main street.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It was in Khuamlo Street.

ADV GCABASHE: Now would that have been very close to one of the hostels, on Khumalo Street?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, it was nearer to Mshayazafe Hostel.

ADV GCABASHE: You say that your parents were forced to leave this house essentially because they feared for the whole family.  Yes?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Did they know that you had been involved in Beki's killing?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Do you mean after they had run away?

ADV GCABASHE: No, as one of the reasons that they moved from the house.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No, they did not know.

ADV GCABASHE: You talked about your, the office, the SDU office.  Where exactly was this, in Tambo Slovo?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It was in Slovo.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, I have a bit of a difficulty in following through the incident you relate, from the time you arrived at the office to the time that Beki was killed.  Am I right in assuming that the distance from the office to the veld, where he was killed, is quite a long distance?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It's not a very long distance.