Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, there is only one person whom it was talked, that is Sergeant Mamome whom he told us that.  That death was alleged that that person murdered the person and that is China.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I'll be asking questions in Afrikaans, if he will bear with me.
	Mr Motsamai, the reason I'm asking you this is due to the fact that Mr Oliphant at the stage of the murder was being held in detention, is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was in prison so that he's people - I don't know why it came that his family thought that he was responsible for the murder.

MR STANDER: Wasn't it members of the security police who spread this dis-information?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was the security branch and how that information was found, I don't know where Sergeant Mamome found that information as whether the family members found out that it was China who was responsible for the murder.

MR STANDER: I didn't understand correctly, are you saying that is the fact - the case?

ADV DE JAGER: Maybe you should repeat the whole question because I couldn't follow it either.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is how I found out.

MR STANDER: Was it the fact - the case that the security police spread dis-information, that Mr Oliphant had been responsible for the death of his grandfather?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'm not sure.  I don't know when Sergeant Mamome left to dig out the information when he met the people in the location, what was said so that he was able to find out about the information that they don't know exactly who was responsible for the murder.  That is Mr Ramara.

MR STANDER: Is it the fact - the case that Mr Oliphant was in detention at that stage?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was in prison at that time.

MR STANDER: Do you know why ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I am satisfied that if you don't translate that it gets translated in English so that  I can know.

MR STANDER: Was he in detention due to his political activities?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he questioned by the security police about the murder?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I'm not sure about that, that when he was question was he questioned in regard to the murder but I know that he was asked when they wanted to escape the country.

MR STANDER: Can you tell me why there a specific instruction that George Musi had to be murdered?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was because George Musi had a file -  China had a file.  Mr Musi according to the file or the contents of the file and the information we gathered from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, is that this man was making it possible for people to escape the country to join Umkhonto weSizwe and again there was an information that a certain group which was detained in Ladybrand was from his house.  It was a group of people who were leaving the country to escape to Lesotho to join Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR STANDER: The reason I'm putting this question is to put it to you that it may be so that Mr George Musi sheltered members - political activists and gave them food and whatever, he was never himself a political activist.  What do you say about that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was giving them all things so that it would be possible for them to skip the country.  If he was not a political activist, his file could not have been taken out - we couldn't have been taught about him.

MR STANDER: Mr Motsamai, isn't the real reason that at that stage you weren't aware that China wasn't at home, in other words that he was in prison - you weren't aware of this at that stage and that was the reason why his house was attacked, because you hoped to kill China?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say I knew that China was present with us but according to the information which came from the informer, the informer of Sergeant Mamome explained that China was not present - he didn't know where China was.  The information was that China was not present and the old man is alone.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman may I ask, is China now supposed to be Mr Oliphant because we've heard no evidence that that is the case?  It seems to be assumed now.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is him.

MR STANDER: When the attack was executed did you expect to find a third person in the house, is this correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true, that is true.

MR STANDER: Who was the person you expected to find there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Any person who could be found in the house.

MR STANDER: Do I understand you correctly that you didn't expect to find a specific person?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean inside the house?

MR STANDER: That's correct.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR STANDER: Did you know what happened to the investigation after the death of George Musi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I don't know.

MR STANDER: Were you contacted at any stage by anyone about your own involvement?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Meaning in which way I was informed?

MR STANDER: The question was specifically, whether an investigating officer or anyone ever spoke himself - or a member of the security police ever made contact concerning the death of this person?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean the person was not a member of the security force or what?  What kind of a policeman are you talking about or what person are you talking about?

MR STANDER: Mr Motsamai, usually a death is investigated and my question is, such an investigating officer - if one had been appointed - where you or any other member of the security police contacted concerning the death of this person?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: If we'd go to that person we'd not go there in regard with a straight forward information, we would try to enquire as whether - how far he has investigated the case.

ADV DE JAGER: Did the CID ever question you about this death?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if your unit or your officers took any steps to keep in touch with the CID or murder and robbery who were investigating the death to find out whether they were making mention of security police intervention in the death?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know what to say because I've explained that the person who came to me who informed me about that, saying that Mr Ramara is the one who is investigating the case but as to whether they told him how he should investigate the case, they didn't tell me or I was not informed.

MR STANDER: Did the police at any stage make any contribution to the burial of this person?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

MR STANDER: So you don't know what happened to him at all?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know about anything.  If I remember well, Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw - I don't know who they sent to patrol to look as whether who would come to the funeral who were members of MK or ANC.

MR STANDER: While we're dealing with this case of Mr Oliphant, I want to ask you something about your involvement on the occasion of his detention after he tried to move to Lesotho and when he was arrested by members of the South African defence force.  Can you remember this occasion?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I remember that incident but when he was detained by South African defence force members, we were not involved in the patrols at the border so I was not present.

MR STANDER: This is the case but later he was a member of a group of 19 brought to Bloemfontein to be questioned and when they were assaulted.  Do you know anything about this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I found them there in the morning when we reported for duty, they were transferred by Ladybrand police.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I've lost the witness and Mr Stander.  I'm not sure whether we're speak about Oliphant or about George Musi - if that may be clarified.